# Gel Stain Not What I Thought it would be



## andy_P

I am looking for comments, tips, experiences regarding the use of Gel Stain. I have just tried my first finishing job using Gel Stain and am less than pleased with the experience if not the results. The piece I was finishing is the Toy Box shown in my gallery.

The project ended up looking fine but using the Gel Stain was a disappointmen. I found it was difficult to apply without having to heap it on. If I tried to use a cloth to apply it, the stain started to dry out too soon and was harder to wipe off and end up with a smooth looking finish job.

I was using Minwax Gel Stain. I would appreciate some feedback. Maybe I am doing something wrong?????

Andy


----------



## woodnut

I by no means am expert, but I have used or tried to use gel-stains I had the same problem that you describe then I read a blog, ( I think it was on here) where they said to first apply a coat of shellac then the gel-stain and that did seem to help. I was applying it to pine so my biggest concern was splotches. I am sure someone else more qualified than myself well be along shortly to help out.


----------



## a1Jim

With gel stain it makes a big difference because some are much better than others. In using gel stains you want to make sure you don't rub it in very much or you will negate the benefits concerning blotching. Gel stain is like thick paint so don't expect the same look that oil stains give .


----------



## andy_P

This is Volador lumber that I am working with, so I don't think there is a need for shellac….but I might test that.

Jim, you said a mouthful…..Gel Stain is different! I think I will stick to oil stains in the furture unless someone comes up with a real plus for it. I think I better go back and re-read the articles in woodworking magazines and find what I was missing and again why they are supposed to be so great.


----------



## teenagewoodworker

dump the minwax and get some good gel stain… try the general finishes gell stain as well as the bartley gel stain… they are both superb products and the bartley is very thick while the general finishes is a little thinner and dries much slower than the bartley which dries very fast.


----------



## Don46

I'm about to finish (stain and varnish) an extensive amount of red oak cabinets and wine bins in a semi finished basement Is gel stain going to be easier or more complicated for this kind of project I wonder? I want to make it look nice and make the finish durable.

I have been reading on the finewoodworking site and there was an encouraging article on using gel stains, but they did not give high marks to the Minwax. Barleys was the one they touted the most, but it looks like that has to be ordered online; I want to be able to test out one or two colors before committing. I can buy General Finishes brand at a local wood working store and may go with that.

I welcome your suggestions.


----------



## teenagewoodworker

general finishes and bartley will both do great… read what i said above for a comparison…


----------



## andy_P

That very well could be the problem. teenage…..from the mouth of babes, etc.

Don, I would go with the suggestion of using a better quality gel stain. I know Minwax will not like this but facts are facts. I definietely would not try Minwax Gel Stain again. I think I will "heap" it on my next project just to get rid of it. I do most of my ordering on line, so I think I will give Barley's a try. Any suggestions on where to get it?


----------



## snaslund

II have used Bartley's and did not have any issues with it. I put it on a lot like you would do shoe polish. I liked that fact that it did not overdarken the end grain. It seems to penetrate slower and be pretty easy to control. I am not sure about the problem you were seeing. Seems to me like something was making it dry way too fast. Could the surface have been real hot or anything like that?


----------



## Grampa

I have found the same problem. Went back to using oil stain or water based. But I do like gel varnish, it really seems to work well ( with no stain).


----------



## andy_P

Steven, the temperture where I am is HOT. It is over 105 outside but I keep the shop at around 75 with a swamp cooler.

Grampa, I understand what you are saying. I have been using Minwax Wipe On Poly for a long time and really happy with the results. Takes a little longer but no worries about brush srokes. It gets easier with each succeeding coat. Is that what you have found? I am going to have to try some I am going to have to try some Gel Varnixh one of these days.


----------



## Marc5

I used Gel Stain on a table I just made and ended up with a little blotching. I found it easy to apply with a rag but noted that I needed to watch how much pressure I used wiping off the stain to keep the finish even. I may try using a conditioner prior to applying the stain next time and see what happens.


----------



## 747DRVR

I agree with Teenagewoodworker.I have used Bartley many times and it works great.I have never used the General Finishes Gel stain but have used many of their other products so I am sure it is an excellent product.If you shellac it first it will help with the blotching but it will be hard to get much color on.


----------



## andy_P

Marc,

Note the response from 747DRVR…..What wood was your table made from? If it is soft wood, you probably definitely want to use a prestain product.

747DRVR…..Can I assume a commercial pilot? Former DL employee here.

Andy


----------



## Marc5

Andy,

I see his response and will try. The table was made from ash.


----------



## Benjamin

Their is a great article in the Sept. issue of "American Woodworker" mag and a video on www.americanwoodworker.com/glazing about gel stains and glazing techniques. If you get a minute, check it out….....


----------



## davidroberts

my first experience with gel stain was a complete and total disaster. It dried thick and hard before I could wipe it off. i had to scrub it off with mineral spirits. what a mess. here is what I learned from all that. wipe on wipe off, wipe on wipe off. work in small areas and don't let it sit. don't try to apply to the whole piece at once, like i did. also do use a sealer, such as shellac.


----------



## Don46

Here is one of the articles I found at Finewoodworking. Not sure if you can access it w/o registration or subscription. http://www.finewoodworking.com/Materials/MaterialsPDF.aspx?id=2806
They describe Minwax gel as "weak in color and light bodied"

Bartley Gel Stain is online and there does not seem to be any guide to local retailers. 
http://bartleycollection.com/catalog/index.php?l=product_detail&p=444 This appears to be mainly a furniture reproduction company that marets stain as well.

For myself I want to try a stain before buying all I need. 
The other brand people are recommending (on a post I started earlier) is General Finishes, which is sold locally for me at least. I'm going to try that. 
http://www.generalfinishes.com/finishes/oil-base-finishes/oilbase.htm

I will post my experience. I'm about a week out from finishing I would guess.


----------



## andy_P

Thanks for all the sources for information. It is nice to know I am not alone. I have not tried using a sealer such as shellac before staining because I don't want to alter the color. It seems to me that if I us a sealer before applying the Gel Stain, the stain will not penetrate at all, and most of the stain will be wiped off. Am I wrong in this assumption?

Don you were right about not being able to read the entire article but from the intro it seems to be saying the same things I have always heard about using Gel Stain. It sounds great but it has been a real mess for me. I can believe that perhaps the Minwax product is not the best, but I would imagine the properties of the gel should be about the same as any other brand. Are you going to give both the Gel Stain and oil stain a try and then decide which way to go? All I can tell you is whatever you do don't just jump into the Gel Stain if this is a big project, and make sure you test it on a large piece not just a piece of scrap.


----------



## Don46

After some further research I found Bartley stains are retailed locally, but not at many places, and none near my home in Columbia SC:
http://www.bartleycollection.com/gel-stains-varnish.html

I believe I'll start w the General Finishes gel stain and see how that goes.

Minwax got top reviews for its wipe on poly, in another article at Finewoodworking; they pointed out that it was the best quality and best value, costing a fraction of competitors brands. Minwax stains are widely available and so far as I know they have a good reputation for most of their products, but not the gel stain according to the article I found at least, and according to your experience w the gel.

Good luck.


----------



## andy_P

Well, I'm going to wrestle with and finish this quart that I have on hand now and just use it as a learning tool. I'm going to stick to oil stain in the future. The gel stain might be ok for small projects, but I'll never try it again on anything big.


----------



## SnowyRiver

I have used General gel stains and they work about the same as most others, especially if you expect it to work like a regular stain. I like to think of the gel stain as something similar to the semi transparent stains you might use on wood siding on a house. It goes on much like paint and is intended to even out the bloches and off colors of the wood.

The first time I tried it I had trouble too. I finally realized what it was intended to do and then accepted the more solid color. I usually paint it on with thin coats and then let it dry. I found the more wiping I do the worse it gets.


----------



## andy_P

Wayne,

All I can say is that gel stain has sure not been what I thought it would be. I am in contact with a MinWax rep and he is trying to figure out what is wrong. I think he is thinking that the can I got has been on the shelf to long. I don't know if that could be a factor or not. I sent him the batch number. Let's see what he comes up with. The can I got actually looks like stirred "Jello". It would make sense given the name "Gel" but the analogy I gave him is that it is like trying to rub glue off a board without diluting it with water. I will say that when I finally get it wiped off, it looks fine. No blotches….of course I am using hardwood, not pine.


----------



## SnowyRiver

Yeah, whipped jello sounds a bit thick and lumpy. Hopefully the rep can figure out whats wrong. Gel stain is usually about the consistancy of whipped cream.

Keep us posted on what you find out. Good Luck !


----------



## davidroberts

andy_P: I may have read to quickly through the posts and you may have gotten your answer, but you were concerned the gell stain won't penetrate if a sealer is used. My experience is a shellac, or even a varnish sealer like general finishes, is like water and doesn't seal all the pores. just enought to even out the pore structure. a lot of stains will still get through. BUT, a gell stain stain mostly lies on top of the surface. it does not penetrate the wood's surface. the general finishes i believe arm a seal goes on clear. it's like water. the first time i used it, i didn't think it did anything, but it does just enough.


----------



## andy_P

Thanks for your input, David.


----------



## andy_P

Just as a follow up for those of you that might be interested. The rep from MinWax that has been working with me on my dissatisfaction with their Gel Stain has told me that the can I was using…I sent him the batch code from the can…..was from 2007. He admitted that it was getting pretty old. They are going to send me a replacement can but I have requested that they make it a can of their regular oil stain. I would like to try Gel Stain again but based on all the comments you guys have made, I think I am going to stay away from the MinWax product and switch to General.

Bottom Line to this whole thing…...it looks like the Gel Stain was old and that is why I was having so much trouble wiping it off.


----------



## SnowyRiver

Great Andy….glad that they were able to come to some conclusion. Hope you have better luck with the General.


----------



## Don46

I'm using General Finishes gel stain on some red oak cabinets and a pine door and I'm very pleased with the results. 
The pine door required a pre stain and that really worked. The gel stain produced a fairly even, not too zebra striped, look. The red oak is beautiful. I used "Candlelight" which has a little bit of red in it. The grain pops and it has a very rich look.

The goop is messy to put on and I don't know any other way but to scoop it up in a rag and spread it around. I'm learning that a thin coat works best and to wipe it off after a few minutes, softly and with the grain. Use lots of rags. I buy the terry cloth rags and will go through a couple of dozen before I'm finished. 
Once I get the depth of color I want I'll apply some General Finish satin wipe on poly.

-Don


----------



## andy_P

Everyone seems to speak highly of General Finishes. I'm going to have to try it. That was one of the problems I was having with the MinWax. I did not have a few minutes. It wanted to dry out right away and I was never able to put a nice even coat on the project and then wipe it off. I described it to the MinWax rep as trying to wipe glue up with a dry rag.

Anyay, glad your project turned out well. I made it though mine and just use it as a learning experience.


----------



## larryu

I've been trying some GF gel stain. My first attempt was not good, too thick in some spots. I saw a technique in youtube video ABhz6GwIttM on how to use a brush dipped lightly in paint thinner to smooth out and thin the gel stain. I tried that on one board tonite. Much better than my first attempt, but I may still need more practice.

A maple board does not have as noticable a grain pattern as the oak in the video. So I have some doubt about whether much maple grain will be visible through the Java gel stain. My biggest concern is that it would end up looking just like a dark painted board, instead of like a stain. The cabinets I would like to use it on are maple which currently have a light reddish brown nutmeg stain on them. Would a lighter stain (like GF American Walnut gel) work better with the maple cabinets than the dark java?

(I didn't realize this was a 4 year old thread. But maybe some of the posters are still around…)


----------



## TCCcabinetmaker

marc,
Ash can be tough to finish with any kind of stain because it is very dense and doesn't take to too many stains. Usually an ainiline dye works best on ash.

Another good gel stain product is old masters, I experimented with it after discovering I could not longer find bartley. IT is more expensive, but it works fairly well.

Andy, temperature is going to be a main contributing factor in a gel stain, if it's hot you are going to have to move fast, but if it dries too quickly put a little more on your rag and wipe again, it should take the excess off. But honestly, I try to only use gel stains when I am glazing between coats of lacquer, because in order to glaze something you really need a thicker stain to keep the glazing even, or an actual glaze.


----------



## andy_P

I was surprised that anyone was still looking at this thread. I have solved a lot of my staining problems by using Charles Neil's Blotch Control…..especially on maple….unless I am using Curly Maple. I then use a two step method of a dark dye to get into the "curl", a sanding and a lighter dye to give the wood a nice over all color. I've stopped using the gel stain unless absolutely necessary for drip control.


----------

