# Finishing Poly



## KplusU (Feb 15, 2019)

Hey guys. I need Help. I don't want to take the finish off of this barn door I just stained. But after 48 hours of sitting, I went to mount it and got some 1/16 inch deep scratches like it was butter. is there a way for me to fix this without taking all the finish off. One place is at the very bottom of the door. The other part is in the middle style. Please let me know if you guys in all your knowledge can help me. It is a cherry Minwax stain, with their oil based fast drying poly. I am going to buy some arm r seal.


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## ArtMann (Mar 1, 2016)

Polyurethane varnish of any brand is still only partially cured after 48 hours. I don't know about Arm-R-Seal but suspect it would not be any more scratch resistant in that time frame. It might be you are expecting too much from any finish that has just been applied.


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## bilyo (May 20, 2015)

You can try this: with a razor blade and/or exacto knife (must be sharp) gently scrape the edges of the scratches to smooth them and remove any loose flakes. Then with a small brush, fill the scratch with poly without overflowing the edges of the scratch. After the requisite drying time (4 hours ?) do the same again. Keep doing this until the last application is, at least, level with the original finish. Let it all dry for several days until it has fully hardened. Then gently scrape with a sharp razor blade until everything is level. At this point, you may need to block sand the whole area working from +- 220 grit to 600 wet/dry or finer until it all has a similar polish. Good luck.


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## Magnum (Feb 5, 2010)

> Polyurethane varnish of any brand is still only partially cured after 48 hours. I don t know about Arm-R-Seal but suspect it would not be any more scratch resistant in that time frame. It might be you are expecting too much from any finish that has just been applied.
> 
> - ArtMann


Polyurethane is not a Varnish I use Minwax Poly Stain all of the time and 24 hours is more than enough time for it to dry. I then apply 2/3 coats of Minwax Clear Poly, usually Semi Gloss and it dries faster than the Stain, maybe 4/5 hours. I use 000 or 0000 Steel Wool to Buff it down between coats.

Richard


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## KplusU (Feb 15, 2019)

I am going to try this tomorrow. Thank you. 


> You can try this: with a razor blade and/or exacto knife (must be sharp) gently scrape the edges of the scratches to smooth them and remove any loose flakes. Then with a small brush, fill the scratch with poly without overflowing the edges of the scratch. After the requisite drying time (4 hours ?) do the same again. Keep doing this until the last application is, at least, level with the original finish. Let it all dry for several days until it has fully hardened. Then gently scrape with a sharp razor blade until everything is level. At this point, you may need to block sand the whole area working from +- 220 grit to 600 wet/dry or finer until it all has a similar polish. Good luck.
> 
> - bilyo


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## KplusU (Feb 15, 2019)

Yeah. I mean it scratched like butter. Not like the other piece i did at the same tie.


> Polyurethane varnish of any brand is still only partially cured after 48 hours. I don t know about Arm-R-Seal but suspect it would not be any more scratch resistant in that time frame. It might be you are expecting too much from any finish that has just been applied.
> 
> - ArtMann


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

> Polyurethane is not a Varnish
> Richard
> 
> - Richard


It most certainly is varnish, at least if it's oil based. Varnish is a more correct name for it than "polyurethane".


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## Magnum (Feb 5, 2010)

> Polyurethane is not a Varnish
> Richard
> 
> - Richard
> ...


Wiki: The term "varnish" refers to the finished appearance of the product. It is not a term for any single or specific chemical composition or formula. There are many different compositions that achieve a varnish effect when applied. A distinction between spirit-drying (and generally removable) "lacquers" and chemical-cure "varnishes" (generally thermosets containing "drying" oils) is common, but varnish is a broad term historically and the distinction is not strict.

Polyurethane Wiki: Any of various polymers containing the urethane radical; a wide variety of synthetic forms are made and used as adhesives, plastics, paints or rubber.

They are 2 Different Products. Varnish is always Oil Based. Poly can be either Water or Oil based.

I use to use Varnish and/or Shellac many years ago. Not anymore. Now it's all Poly selected from many different types.


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## KplusU (Feb 15, 2019)

I agree.


> Polyurethane is not a Varnish
> Richard
> 
> - Richard
> ...


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

When is come to names of finishes just goodie until you find the answer to support your calm. There are so many lies and misinformation than you can shake a stick at in the finish business.

https://homeguides.sfgate.com/polyurethane-varnish-98832.html


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## Magnum (Feb 5, 2010)

> When is come to names of finishes just goodie until you find the answer to support your calm. There are so many lies and misinformation than you can shake a stick at in the finish business.
> 
> https://homeguides.sfgate.com/polyurethane-varnish-98832.html
> 
> - AlaskaGuy


Thanks Alaska Guy. I went to that Link. A lot of good Info that applies directly to this discussion and access to a lot more info. I Bookmarked that Site for Reference.


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## OSU55 (Dec 14, 2012)

Agree with AlaskaGuy, with finishes as well as many other things people can google till they find the answer they want. Folks can rely on wiki definitions… I won't. At least Bob Flexner has some cred when it comes to finishes, and according to Bob, solvent polyurethane varnish is a varnish. Recent article of his here.

The op can blame minwax for the scratches, but ARS will fair no better. Not sure of any finish that would withstand whatever caused a 1/16" deep scratch, cured or not.


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## KplusU (Feb 15, 2019)

I never blamed it for the scatches I blame it for the inconsistent drying times. I did a piece before I did this with no problem. Also, I quoted the wrong guy when i said i agree. Varnish is varnish. poly is poly. They are both finishes but poly is most definitely not a varnish. Completely different things. Varnish, shellac, and lacquer are what I am comfortable with. This is the first thing i have ever polyied so it is just a new beast to me. I just need time to play with it.


> Agree with AlaskaGuy, with finishes as well as many other things people can google till they find the answer they want. Folks can rely on wiki definitions… I won t. At least Bob Flexner has some cred when it comes to finishes, and according to Bob, solvent polyurethane varnish is a varnish. Recent article of his here.
> 
> The op can blame minwax for the scratches, but ARS will fair no better. Not sure of any finish that would withstand whatever caused a 1/16" deep scratch, cured or not.
> 
> - OSU55





> I agree.
> 
> Polyurethane is not a Varnish
> Richard
> ...


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## KplusU (Feb 15, 2019)

These are the scratches so you guys can help me more.


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## ArtMann (Mar 1, 2016)

All the woodworkers I know - and there are hundreds - refer to polyurethane as a type of varnish. If somebody wants to argue with that, they are more than welcome to do so. I plan to continue referring to it as a type of varnish because I want people to understand what I am talking about. I don't think there is any such thing as water based lacquer but I am more than happy to let other people call it that. I don't want people to think I am an obnoxious know-it-all.

The odd thing about your use of the definition of varnish you quoted describes polyurethane about as well as any definition I could imagine. It just seems you are making an artificial distinction to be contrary. Why? Who are you trying to impress?


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## ArtMann (Mar 1, 2016)

I got curious about your information, which does not go along with my 20+ years of experience with the product. I just went out to the shop and read the application notes on an actual can of Minwax polyurethane. It said to wait 24 hours before normal use, provided the application environment is 77 degrees and the relative humidity is 50% or less. I very much doubt many people are applying varnish at a temperature of 77 degrees on this side of the equator at this time of year. How come this material works so much differently for you than the manufacturer says?

I went to the Minwax website and tried to find something called "Minwax Poly Stain". They didn't mention a product with this name. Is this a product that only sells in Canada or are you just making it up? I can't believe you said this and you are accusing me of using erroneous terminology.



> Polyurethane is not a Varnish I use Minwax Poly Stain all of the time and 24 hours is more than enough time for it to dry. I then apply 2/3 coats of Minwax Clear Poly, usually Semi Gloss and it dries faster than the Stain, maybe 4/5 hours. I use 000 or 0000 Steel Wool to Buff it down between coats.
> 
> Richard
> 
> - Richard


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## KplusU (Feb 15, 2019)

That is why I asking. I followed the directions and of the 2 pieces of the same size, For some reason, this (which was done earlier ) one didn't harden up as good as the other one. Now I am trying to make it look better.


> I got curious about your information, which does not go along with my 20+ years of experience with the product. I just went out to the shop and read the application notes on an actual can of Minwax polyurethane. It said to wait 24 hours before normal use, provided the application environment is 77 degrees and the relative humidity is 50% or less. I very much doubt many people are applying varnish at a temperature of 77 degrees on this side of the equator at this time of year. How come this material works so much differently for you than the manufacturer says?
> 
> I went to the Minwax website and tried to find something called "Minwax Poly Stain". They didn t mention a product with this name. Is this a product that only sells in Canada or are you just making it up? I can t believe you said this and you are accusing me of using erroneous terminology.
> 
> ...


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## Magnum (Feb 5, 2010)

[removed]


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

I'm with Richard on the use of the quote feature. I too am getting lost as to who is addressing who.


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## KplusU (Feb 15, 2019)

Well, If I could stop quoting a quoted message it might work better for me. I keep quoting the wrong person as I was just pointing out. Brother Richard, I don't understand, what attitude, I agree with you. what is heavy.


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

> Varnish is varnish. poly is poly. They are both finishes but poly is most definitely not a varnish.
> 
> - Kenneth Wayne Reeves J.r.


Well, if that's what you believe….I just wish you the best of luck with your finishing.


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## Cricket (Jan 15, 2014)

When we disagree.
https://www.lumberjocks.com/CricketW/blog/129337


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## Magnum (Feb 5, 2010)

> [removed]
> 
> - Richard


OOOOPS! Do Tell! Oh well, probably for the better! It's one way of getting rid of "Unsavory Discussions"!

Thank You Cricket!


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## Magnum (Feb 5, 2010)

Just to Clarify some of my Statements. When I refer to POLY OR Minwax Poly Based Stain I'm talking about Water Based Polyurethanes. I never use Oil Based Polyurethane.

Somewhere I referred to Minwax "Polyshades" It is a Pre Coloured, Oil Based Stain and Finish in one.

That's It!


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## therealSteveN (Oct 29, 2016)

Bob Flexner says

He may not know everything, but he makes more $$$$$ every year in pursuits about "finishing" than I imagine most of us do.


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## OSU55 (Dec 14, 2012)

> Just to Clarify some of my Statements. When I refer to POLY OR Minwax Poly Based Stain I m talking about Water Based Polyurethanes. I never use Oil Based Polyurethane.
> 
> Somewhere I referred to Minwax "Polyshades" It is a Pre Coloured, Oil Based Stain and Finish in one.
> 
> ...


It would be helpful if you, and everyone else, always clarify that you mean wb or water base poly since it and its solvent adoptive brother are really only related by name, with very little of the same genetic code.


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## Magnum (Feb 5, 2010)

Thank You OSU44.

*Genetic Code Properties of Finishes are not my Thing. No further Reply Forthcoming. *


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## Magnum (Feb 5, 2010)

> Varnish is varnish. poly is poly. They are both finishes but poly is most definitely not a varnish.
> 
> - Kenneth Wayne Reeves J.r.


I agree with Kenneth.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> Varnish is varnish. poly is poly. They are both finishes but poly is most definitely not a varnish.
> 
> - Kenneth Wayne Reeves J.r.
> 
> ...


Now I'm really confused. Was Kenneth referring to oil or WB and what is Kenneth credentials in the finishing world. 
I'll go with Bob Flexner any day.


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## Magnum (Feb 5, 2010)

> Varnish is varnish. poly is poly. They are both finishes but poly is most definitely not a varnish.
> 
> - Kenneth Wayne Reeves J.r.
> 
> ...


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> Varnish is varnish. poly is poly. They are both finishes but poly is most definitely not a varnish.
> 
> - Kenneth Wayne Reeves J.r.
> 
> ...


Are you just posting quotes or did you have a message?


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## bd1886 (Jul 2, 2018)

Labels for wood finishing products are valid in only how they behave and the properties of their finished film. Technically? Oil Poly is most definitely a "varnish". (Major components are shared with a true varnish.) Having said that? Their main application/curing behavior is that of a synthetic plastic that is urea based and it behaves accordingly.

Repairing poly is not as easy as as that with a varnish or lacquer. Basically it insists on having "an edge" to a repaired area that is difficult to blend in chemically or mechanically. But? Your door there looks like it has enough "busy" going on in the grain pattern and wood coloration for a breaking point.


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## Magnum (Feb 5, 2010)

> Varnish is varnish. poly is poly.
> 
> ME & KENNETH Made the same comment. (Hope that's not to isagreeable.)
> 
> ...


Here we go again. Are you talking to me or Kenneth? If it's ME! NO! I am NOT just Posting Quotes.

Why would I Post something that has already been Posted?

A few Posts Back You were agreeing with me that some of these QUOTES were just making it harder to Understand. I.E. Whose Quoting and Whose Posting!

Have A Nice Day A.J.


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## Magnum (Feb 5, 2010)

*VARNISH, WIKI:*

*Varnish is a clear transparent hard protective finish or film*. Varnish has little or no color and *has no added pigment *as opposed to paint or wood stain which contains pigment. However, some varnish products are marketed as a combined stain and varnish. *Varnish is primarily used in wood finishing applications where the natural tones and grains in the wood are intended to be visible. It is applied over wood stains as a final step to achieve a film for gloss *and protection. Varnish finishes are usually glossy but may be designed to produce satin or semi-gloss sheens by the addition of "flatting" agents.

*The term "varnish" refers to the finished appearance of the product. It is not a term for any single or specific chemical composition or formula.* There are many different compositions that achieve a varnish effect when applied. A distinction between spirit-drying (and generally removable) "lacquers" and chemical-cure "varnishes" (generally thermosets containing "drying" oils) is common, *but varnish is a broad term historically and the distinction is not strict. *


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

</a>


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## Magnum (Feb 5, 2010)

Thanks A.G.


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## Sark (May 31, 2017)

If I may hijack this thread back to the OP's problem.

My question is: has the finish hardened yet? That varnish in your picture looks gummy. If it has dried, then the scratches can be repaired and if not, then you have to wait till the finish is hard, or strip it. I've run into bad batches of finish that never hardened. Probably a defect in the manufacturing, though it could be caused by inadequate mixing of a blended type of finish that otherwise was fine.

Also, if the topcoat was put on before the undercoat/stain dried that can cause problems. Or if the wood was dirty or had some chemical contamination that you didn't see. Also had trouble with the finish not drying when I applied it just too thick, or with too many coats. Also had problems when I varnished a table, and then a fog immediately came in off the ocean and wrecked the finish. Lots can go wrong with finishing, and I keep discovering new ways to muck things up.


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## Magnum (Feb 5, 2010)

(DELETED BY ME)


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## MikeDilday (Feb 21, 2017)

It looks like those scratches are into the wood. If they are 1/16" they are definitely into the wood. If this is reclaimed lumber it is possible that the wood is soft or compromised. If it were me I would be tempted to let the poly cure completely, sand it thru and re-stain and poly.


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## Magnum (Feb 5, 2010)

> It looks like those scratches are into the wood. If they are 1/16" they are definitely into the wood. If this is reclaimed lumber it is possible that the wood is soft or compromised. If it were me I would be tempted to let the poly cure completely, sand it thru and re-stain and poly.
> 
> - MikeDilday


Totally Agree^^^


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## woodbutcherbynight (Oct 21, 2011)

> - AlaskaGuy


ROFL


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## Magnum (Feb 5, 2010)

I'm done here! It's gtting OR already is Out Of Line! No reason to particite futher!


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> I m done here! It s gtting OR already is Out Of Line! No reason to particite futher!
> 
> - Richard


Good call, its an old topic anyway.


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## ArtMann (Mar 1, 2016)

Looks like everyone else was done about 4 months ago based on posting dates.



> I m done here! It s gtting OR already is Out Of Line! No reason to particite futher!
> 
> - Richard


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