# Question on shop lighting



## Elizabeth (Oct 17, 2009)

I have a garage shop in a freestanding garage. It has five incandescent bulbs in the ceiling, though one of them is a dead bulb that I haven't bothered replacing because it's covered by the garage door when the door is open. These bulbs are 100 watts. The ceiling is nine feet up.

I am not interested in putting fluorescent strip lights in because I've heard they're horrible for woodworking. I would like better light, but I have no electrical experience and don't really want to have someone come ina nd mess with the wiring if I don't have to.

I have heard that halogen flood lights (are halogena bulbs the same thing?) would be good for in a shop. *My question:* Can I simply replace the incandescent bulbs with halogen floods or halogena bulbs? What wattage would it be able to support? If there is not enough information here for you to say how much it could support, what information would you need? (info from the fuse box?)

When working in summer I mainly leave the garage door open to let in light and air. If I'm in the back of the shop or in the evenings I supplement with the overhead lights but for much of the day they're not necessary. In the winter (much less woodworking going on then) I will need to use the overhead lights. I don't mind if they put out a lot of heat because it gets cold in there in the winter! I have an electric heater in the wall which I run sometimes.

Suggestions welcome!


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## Dcase (Jul 7, 2010)

I am curious what you have heard negative about fluorescent lights and woodworking? I have fluorescent strip lighting for my shop and I have no complaints at all. They work just fine for me so I wonder what negatives you heard.

Halogen lights are supposed to be used in the bucket fixtures and I believe its due to the heat they give off. I have heard that if used in a standard light fixture there is a risk of it over heating. This is just what I have heard.

I have Halogen floods in my house and I hate them. They are always burning out and IMO they don't produce great lighting. I have even paid the big bucks for the bulbs that are supposed to last for years and they still burn out fast.

Fluorescent strips are really easy to install, you can just detach your old fixture and wire on the new on. The wiring is easy, there are only 3 wires and you just gotta match the colors. I know you heard negative things but I guess ill argue that by saying I feel they work really well in a garage shop.


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## brtech (May 26, 2010)

I've never tried it, so keeping that in mind:

Halogen is "bluer" than most incandescents. Your typically "cool" white fluorescent is also bluer. You can get "warmer" fluorescents, of course.

You can replace an incandescent with a halogen if the base type and voltage is the same. There are halogens in all wattage ranges. As long as you stay under the wattage range for the fixture you have, it will work fine. They do run hot.

I think they are pretty harsh, but you might like it.

I'd try just replacing the incandescents with warm compact fluorescents. They are so much more efficient you can get a lot of light with relatively low wattage. You can find a "200 watt equivalent" CFL that uses 40W. On the other hand, a naked bulb wastes a lot of that light.

If it were me, I'd hang some shop lights and get warm fluorescent bulbs for them. You can do both - replace the incandescents with CFLs and put some shop lights over your prime work areas.


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## Elizabeth (Oct 17, 2009)

Hi Dan,

I have read part of this thread about fluorescents - http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?25302-Fluorescents-are-a-bad-way-to-light-a-woodshop - but I admit I haven't read all of it so perhaps the negatives are debunked later on in the thread.

Good point about the bucket fixtures. The bulbs I have are just bare bulbs sticking straight down from the ceiling. I think the one that is burned out probably got that way from overheating against the garage door, unless the former owner of the house put a dead one in on purpose. (I haven't changed them since we moved in.)

BRTech - Are compact fluorescents the same as those energy-saving twisty bulbs? Because we have some of those in the house and they are horribly dim. But I don't think they are 200 watt equivalent; more like 60 and 100w equivalent.

Part of my reluctance to hang shop lights, I think, is I've been having a heck of a time trying to locate the beams in the ceilings and walls when I do want to hang things. Everything has been drywalled. I want to run some dust collection ducting later this year too and am not looking forward to trying to find those ceiling studs.


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## Builder_Bob (Jan 9, 2010)

I have old fluorescent strips in my workshop, and they are terrible when it comes to making color decisions during the finishing progress. I carry pieces over to the basement window if I can.


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## Elizabeth (Oct 17, 2009)

Oh, and I should mention that in the winter I tend to get headaches which I have tentatively linked to fluorescent lighting in my day job workplace (and in my commute when I was taking public transport). So that has probably put me off fluorescent as well, but a combination of sources might be OK.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

No matter what type of lighting you use in your shop, your project is going to look slightly different if you put under a different light source. Since standard incandescent, halogen, and fluorescent are all so prevalent, I can't see making color rendition a big factor in your choice of shop lighting.

If you need more light and don't want to do any wiring, get one or two hanging fluorescent fixtures that have a plug-in cord on them. This, IMO, would be your best" bang for the buck" in terms of brightness, coolness, and energy efficiency.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Oops… well I hit the post button before your headache comment. I guess you have to take that into consideration.


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## GregD (Oct 24, 2009)

I think in terms of general lighting, task lighting, and color lighting. They are kinda independent, IMHO.

For general lighting I've got newer fluorescent strip fixtures in my shop (garage) and kitchen. I went with T-8 fixtures with electronic ballasts (more expensive) and got rid of the older T-12 fixtures with magnetic ballasts (cheap). I also went with better quality bulbs. Noticably brighter, somewhat less power, and so far no flickering. You can pick the bulb to get the color temperature that you like best. I've noticed I like working in the shop when I have plenty of light.

Even when the general lighting is fine, some tasks go better with task-specific lighting, so I've got some small lights (and flashlights) for that.

Getting lighting right for colors is another thing entirely.


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## bubinga (Feb 5, 2011)

I use a combination of ,incandescent and fluorescent, fluorescent being the main light source. Incandescent is used for task lighting.
You need a lot of light in a shop ,so ,don't skimp. put up as many fixtures as you need to light your shop ,properly. I no longer use any *standard fluorescent bulbs, they are the ones that are horrible for woodworking*. I use "FULL SPECTRUM" TYPE (also known as "NATURAL "or "DAYLIGHT" type) these bulbs are much better for color rendering,and are better quality, they cost a little more,but are well worth it. I put switches with pull chains in some of the fluorescent fixtures, so if I'm in one end of the shop for along time, I can turn off lights in the other end,other wise,they they turn on,and off with the wall switch.
FULL SPECTRUM fluorescent bulbs make a *huge* difference. No matter what time it is ,when I walk in my shop and flip the switches,it is day time in there.I say Let there be light,and there is.

Here is an after thought. You might find screw in type FULL SPECTRUM fluorescent bulbs,with high wattage at a lighting shop, or online.


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## Dcase (Jul 7, 2010)

I would find out what about the fluorescent lights gives you the headache. It could just be certain types of bulbs trigger the headaches. You may want to check into that a little and see if there are safer bulbs for people who are sensitive to the others.

Charlie's idea of the hanging shop lights that plug in seem like a good choice if your not wanting to mess with any wiring. If you went that route you could have the hanging florescent fixtures which plug into an outlet so no wiring needed, and you could keep the lights you have now.

I am pretty sure Halogen lights need to be in a certain type of bucket fixture. They will work in your current fixtures but the bulbs will shut themselves off once they reach a high heat. Then you will have to wait for it to cool down before it will turn on again.


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## longgone (May 5, 2009)

I have 26 of the 48" flourescent tubes in my shop and the light is great. I use the *"daylight"* flourescent tubes and find that they give off the best natural light. My lights are switched on by 4 different wall switches so i can have full control. For me personally, I would not use anything else. I also have 10 windows and 2 sets of french doors with glass inserts that provide alot of light…but the overhead lighting is important.


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## reggiek (Jun 12, 2009)

I too would second using the natural or daylight flourescents. You cannot beat flourescents for low cost, less heat and the amount of light.

In my shop I have flourescents overhead….a few regular incandescents and a few Led lights with magnifyers (old eyes can't read or see the small prints and scratch lines) and skylighting. Over tools that need extra light I have either a light fixture with CFL bulbs….a magnetic led light or place the tool directly under the skylights.

Of all the light sources, the skylights give the best, the cheapest and the most color true, but they do not work at night (unless a full moon) and during very overcast days. Skylights might be a bother to put in (unless you know how or have a friendly contractor - luckily I have that covered)....windows may be an option (easier to put in then skylights as there is no cutting through the ceiling but again you need to know how or have a friendly contractor) I put windows on every wall in my shop - I lose some wall space…but gain a lot more light! The older I get the more pleased I am that I put in the extra work to get more ambiant lighting.


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## dbhost (Jul 20, 2009)

Your information RE: flourescent lights seems a bit off. I have 6 of them, 2 bulb 4 foot models, with daylight bulbs that are great for lighting up my little garage workshop. I would recommend going with T-8 fixtures if you go that way though. T-12 bulbs are going off the market soon due to Government regulations.

FWIW, 2 of my lamps are over my doors when the doors are open. But when they are closed, the illuminate the area very nicely. I would NOT skip putting lighting in there…


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## PurpLev (May 30, 2008)

I too use only FL lightning. I use full spectrum T-8 lights and do not have any flickering, and the color spectrum is pretty decent.

I do have older T-12 FL as well and those are indeed horrible.

T-8 FL lightning I think is the best way to go as it is energy efficient, covers a large space, and with proper bulbs the colors would look good enough - mind you, as stated above, even halogens would throw off the true colors of the wood and finish in the workshop.


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## Eric_S (Aug 26, 2009)

Elizabeth, I too only have FL lighting. I have the T-8 ones as well that don't flicker at all. Also, I chose to get Daylight temperature bulbs. Whenever I walk from the house into the garage and the lights are already on I think I've left the garage door open. Its very cozy and comfortable to work in and bright.

You can see the light produced by these in my workshop photos…. http://lumberjocks.com/Eric_S/workshop I have 4 workshop style strips, each one holds 2×4ft' bulbs.

The only thing I would do is install another FL strip near the door to the house, its a little darker over and I've been meaning to add one more strip.


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

My shop has a bunch of Florescent hung ceiling recessed lights. I got a few of them, about $45 at Home Depot. they screw up to the ceiling nicely, have 4 48" bulbs which they sell in boxes of a dozen fairly cheaply. The reason for using these is that they are pretty good lights. They have ballasts that don't buzz and have a hinged reflector that diffuses the light nicely. I enclosed all of mine with birch plywood sides. They look good and make working for older eyes a snap.


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## mrg (Mar 10, 2010)

I use t-8 flourecent lights in my shop. I use the daylight ones. In the house I use daylight cfl bulbs. I use 100 watt cfl daylight bulbs for photography. The t-8 work well. The daylight bulbs are closer to the color of sunlight. When buying cfls look at the lumens the higher the brighter. You can have 2 45 watt equivalent bulbs with different lumens thus different light.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

Me, too.

Quite a few 2-tube fluorescent strips, with just about the highest CRI (Color Rendering Index) you can get. I don't remember how much they were, but it's several times more $$ than your basic, cheap fluorescent bulb.










I'm quite happy with the lighting in my shop, and … I've got pretty lousy, pretty picky, pretty sensitive eyes.

My $0.02. YMMV.

Good luck !


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## bubinga (Feb 5, 2011)

Ok I was unaware that ,these were available: 85 Watt Fluorescent Full Spectrum Bulb, 
Approximate Incandescent Equivalent: 300 Watts 
This just one example I found


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## Grandpa (Jan 28, 2011)

I would be careful with halogen bulbs because of the heat. The larger bulbs have a mogul base and it won't screw into a standard base fixture anyway. I use flourescent lighting also. So far I am using the older lights because I have them with a lifetime supply of bulbs. I suppose I will have to replace the ballasts someday but that bridge is still in front of me. Most headaches from flourescent lighting is caused by flickering. Better fixtures should take care of that. I have overhead doors in my shop and was able to hang some lights from the track. I used the end of the track and mine has a flat metal strip in the other end that holds that end. That works for me and I have my light below the door. I actually went to a lighting supply house and talked to the people there about the best light for my shop when I built it. I was wanting shop lights like we had in the manufacturing facility where I worked. They explained that I needed a 30 ft. high ceiling so the light could spread. HHHHMMMMM never crossed my mind. The man there finally said lets talk to my supplier and see what he recommends. that is what he gets paid for. I sketched my shop on a sheet of paper and they faxed that to them. In a few days they had the answer. He recommended cold temp 8 ft flourescent fixtures. I nearly choked when I saw that the bulbs cost more than the fixtures. I didn't go with the cold weather fixtures because I didn't have to and the regular bulbs work fine in our climate. I have added more fixtures. I would use a fixture that uses 4 ft bulbs because they are a LOT cheaper than the 8 ft. Buy the daylight bulb or the one with the best color rendering for you. There is a whole world of bulbs to choose from. As mentioned already when you want to really look at colors, carry a sample outdoors and use the sun. That is the best and we can't reproduce it….exactly. Incandescents are a waste of time and energy. You will never go back to that once you change. They give bad lighting for colors too. You can plug the flourescent fixtures into the existing sockets (by using an adapter) and you can have light right away. I haven't bought any compact flourescent bulbs in years. I was not able to find those in the high output mentioned but perhaps they are available today. Like I said that was years ago when I used them. I was not impressed with the small amount of light I got and at that time and they were expensive.


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## Gregn (Mar 26, 2010)

I get headaches from the fluorescent tube lights as well, but don't seem to have any problems with the CFL's (compact fluorescent lights) which is what I have in my shop. As for the halogen lights they do get hot and would not use the flood type bulbs as they don't throw the light evenly. I do have 2 fixtures that resemble the cheap fluorescent shop lights that hang from the ceiling that have 2 500 watt bulbs in them that I do use for task lighting. You want to make sure that they hang level or you will go through bulbs regularly. If your wanting to stay with the incandescent style bulbs, I would suggest jumping up to the 300 watt incandescent bulbs, they to will throw off some heat but will drastically improve the lighting in the shop. They screw into your regular fixtures just like the standard bulbs.


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## scarpenter002 (Sep 16, 2007)

As with many others, I also use 2-tube fluorescent strips throughout my shop. Mine are all T8. Note that the Sawmill Creek thread you referenced was started in 2005, so many of the complaints around T8's not being available or being too expensive does not apply anymore. Yes, T8's are more expensive, but the electronic ballasts last longer and do not have the issue of working in the cold, like the magnetic ballasts. Also they do not seem to have all the flickering you tend to get with the magnetic ballasts. At least that is what I have observed.

Another option I have seen is replacing a couple of single bulb fixtures with track lighting. There are various fixtures you can choose from that support multiple bulb styles, including halogen, low voltage, incandescent, and CFL. Most of them tend to be can style, but others are more open and might be considered.


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## chodgson (Jan 19, 2011)

My 2-car garage (aka shop) was originally lit with two basic 2-bulb fixtures (typical glass bubbles). I removed those fixtures and replaced each of them with a pair of 4-foot 2-lamp fluorescent fixtures, running the length of the garage, connected by a 4-foot section of conduit. So instead of 4×60W incandescents I have 8x~30W fluorescents. The lighting went from dismal to stunning, with essentially the same power usage. Personally I have no problems with fluorescent lighting, but I know there are lots of people who do. As many before have said, the color issue is completely separate.
I was really happy with this upgrade, and it was really quite easy to do (would have been even easier with a second person to help hold the fixtures as I mounted them but an 8' 2×4 made a great helper).


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## crank49 (Apr 7, 2010)

Elizabeth, I have an odd, L shaped shop and* had *incandesent lights like you. I added tube type flouresent light over the years, but never really had enough light and I hate the T-12 flourescents when they start to flicker; which they all seem to do sooner or later. I tried some of the daylight cork screw, CFL, bulbs but the glare gave me a headache.

About 6 months ago I read about these really big CFL lights that are 68 watt flourescent lights with an equivalent output of a 300 watt incandescent, They are made by a company called TCP. I got mine at Home Depot for about $14 each. These lights are warm white, 2700k, and I love them. They just screw into a standard light fixture and bingo, let there be plenty of light.

You could try one without any hassle, just replace the one you have that is shot. They use a standard fixture but they are much larger than the normal CFL. About the size of a Nerf football.

The SKU numbet at Home Depot is 599031.


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## gfadvm (Jan 13, 2011)

I too am a FL advocate but no one has mentioned painting everything in the shop gloss white. I did this and it made a BIG difference. Neil -no offense man but your shop looks like a cave with lots of shadows. I also have vision issues and I dont think I could work in yours. More light/white paint might eliminate the shadows. Please take this comment in the spirit it was intended.Neil - I just saw the lighting plan for your new shop which looks super so Ill quit worrying about you!


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Elizabeth, since you don't want to hire a guy like me and spend an bunch of money ;-)) I would suggest getting some good quality CFLs with a high wattage equivalent output with a good color range.

One of the big problems with fluorescents is the lack of defined shadows for carving, ect.

Light is a known trigger for migraines as well as an exacerbating factor when a migraineur has one. Trust me, I know ;-((


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

You might consider using a small portable light for task lighting ???


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## jonnytranscend (Jun 13, 2011)

I have never had a single issue with florescent lighting in my shop. I mix my own glazes, stains, color match. Build tons of projects a year out there. Ive never had a issue dealing with colors in that lighting. Maybe im use to it i dont know.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

gfadvm:

No offense taken. It's much better in person than it is/was in that photograph. I can't master digital cameras, so … I point-and-shoot. I really don't get shadows when I'm working, although … I was pretty thoughtful about where each fixture went.

The picture is also taken from "outside of" the shop, so … I'm standing IN a dark area, trying to photograph a light area. Obviously … it didn't work very well ;-)

We're working on a new house, where the shop WILL be framed, sheathed with OSB, and drywalled, so … white walls … are a-comin' ;-)


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Here is the thing about fluorescent tubes that are known to give headaches - the length of the tube and diameter.

In a different career, we found that under the right conditions tubes that are 4' and longer are the issue. It is primarily because the eyes pickup the oscillation from the a/c cycles running up and down the tubes. Some people pick this up and some don't. It is more pronounced in the industrial 6' and 8' tubes. In commercial office buildings the lighting voltage may not be 120 but may be 110 or 208 which creates a slightly lower light level on a ballast that runs on 110-120 or 208-240 volts which increases the brain's ability to pickup the cycles. In Canada, at 50 cycles, this can be more promounced. The "U" tubes show oscillation more at the bend of the tube. Using the 3' tubes should greatly reduce the headache if not eliminate them.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

This oscillation from the a/c cycles has been known for many years. When I was an apprentice 40 yrs ago, they told us to divide up the lighting on different phases to eliminate it. Of course you need 3 phase power to do that.

jonnytranscend, I have concluded over the years that a lot of us see color differently. To my bro-in-law, deer stand out like hunter orange to me ;-)) Of course, that is an extreme. My wife, grandson and I all see color slightly different.


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## HerbC (Jul 28, 2010)

dbray45

Where in Canada do they have 50 cycle electrical power? I worked for a while in Newfoundland Canada as an electrician and we had 60 cycle like the US… I believe Europe is on 50 cycle…

Herb


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## mtenterprises (Jan 10, 2011)

YEA What crank49 said these are great I use the "200" watt ones in my inside shop in 5 differen't types of lamps and they are GREAT. When it's dark outside I sometimes have to look out the window because it's soooo bright inside that it looks like daylight. I have never had to use all 5 at once they are so bright. AND they are the BEST to use when taking pictures because of the color range, and that is a tip from the Etsy photo people. I have been considering them for my garage shop too.

MIKE


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I think It may be time to jerk down the used 8' slimline and F40s I salvaged 30 yrs ago ;-)


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

Light and chasing shadows is important in fine woodworking. So is saving energy and being as green as you can for our planet.

Do you realize that you can only look one direction and all that light to the side and behind you is wasted energy.

*I'd like for you to consider the ultimate in "green" wood working lighting that also offers a measure of protection from falling objects (eg Stanley Bailey #8 hanging from rafter). Cut those lights OUT and only see what you NEED to see ! ;=) *


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

Oh Boy!
Here we go with the "being green….....Save our planet" stuff!
David…......Quit drinking the Kool-Aid…...Al Gore is rich enough!


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

With a solar model that charges riding to work will not need to draw form the grid!


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

Hey, Al Gore co-invented the internet. He's my hero. Dan Quayle is the other one. These floundering fathers deserve respect.

Jim, Please don't tell me you thought I was serious … LOL

I have ceiling, task and table CFL's and tubes… two task recessed plus a 10 foot track light with six spots. No Kool-Aid. I am the bright spot on the grid.


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## roundguy (Jan 19, 2011)

I put up 12 8' electronic ballast fluorescents up in my garage a few years ago. I have enough light in any part of the garage. I didn't want any dim spots in the garage, and I don't. When its time to change the bulbs, I was going to buy the daylight lamps, but thats a lot of cash to change them out at one time.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

When you change the lamps, one is usually still good. If yoiu use an old one with a new one it will shorten the bulb life. use 2 old ones together and new ones in a pair when changing the tubes. Hope that makes sense ;-)


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Hmmm, when I lived in Cleveland, many years ago, bought a motor that was wired for 50 cycles by accident (burned up). Was told it was for Canada. Guess I was missinformed.

Found this: http://treehouse.ofb.net/go/en/voltage


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

Sorry David,
You had me there for a minute. My guard was down.
If we all work together we can keep that Grid hot and humming.
I'm doing my part, Just bought a 5.0 Mustang to keep the oil industry humming also. Doing some mods to smoke the tires and keep the rubber manufacturers on overtime.


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## richgreer (Dec 25, 2009)

We are converting every light in our house, that is subject to regular daily use, to LED. I will soon be doing that for my shop also. My shop lights are probably on about 3 - 4 hours per day on average (no windows).

They are somewhat expensive, but they burn a lot less energy and pay for themselves in 4 - 5 years if subjected to regular use and they will last for over 20 years of regular use.

We already have them in our kitchen and we like them a lot.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

Rich:

I'm trying to go all LED in our new house, too. In fact, they finally have dimmable LEDs, so I'm trying to go THAT way.

We, too, have them in our kitchen, and for ALL our exterior lighting. They're awesome !

I tend to believe in spending the money on pretty much anything with a payback of a reasonable time-frame … if and when you can.

In our state (utility costs, lack of subsidies) the payback for solar was about 50% longer than the service life of the panels, so … pass … but things like insulation and LED lighting … to me … make a lot of sense-particularly since my goal is/was to buy a house and have it until I can no longer take care of myself-you know-maybe another three years ;-)


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## dbhost (Jul 20, 2009)

I wanted to touch base on this again since the subject of migraines has come up. FWIW, the flourescent lights in my office can, and often do trigger migranes. I have had the bulb in the hutch of my desk swapped for a daylight bulb, and diffusers put in the fixtures near my desk. That has eliminated the problem for me. Direct exposure for long periods to the standard "cool white" bulbs without any sort of diffusion gives me issues anywhere from migranes to nausea. What REALLY scares me is government involvement in what bulbs we can buy. As bad as flourescents are for me, LEDs are worse. Not many people can, but I actually see LED lights flicker, and I can not be in an LED lit room for any period of time without throwing up… I don't know how common that is, just relating my experience… For ME, daylight white flourescent bulbs have been a dream, but other temps, and technologies don't work for me. YMMV, and you may have to test what works best for YOU…


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## Racer2007 (Jan 13, 2011)

Elizabeth, you could also look at thes LED replacement bulbs that fit your existing sockets. They arent cheap but they last a long time and put out a lot light with a lot less power usage and no where near as much heat as Halogen. I had not heard of the issues dbhost has with them before and I have a couple in my Apartment and have no problems with them myself.

http://www.earthled.com/evolux-led-light-bulb.html


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

Hey, jim C

Really nice ride. Really.

I have two F-150's… one 4.6 and the other 5.4 3 valve… and both have cat back dual, no mufflers.. just tuned resonator tips… all so they can sound like Ford's throaty sound. I'm too damn tall and big for a 'stang, though. I have to grease up to get in the 7.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

David,
Don't want to steal the thread so I sent you a private message.


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## brtech (May 26, 2010)

Elizabeth, do you have a "stud finder"? They work pretty well to find studs in walls and ceilings. It's one of those things that you don't use every day (or even every year), but when you need it, it JUST what you want for the task. Once you find one of them, then it's 16" OC for walls, usually, but sometimes garages are 24" OC. Your truss beams are likely 24" OC also. You can use the stud finder to verify it.

I have no problems with fluorescent light, but my wife has serious headache issues with them. CFLs work.

I'd upgrade your current bulbs to 200 or 300 w CFLs, and try a T8 strip light to see if you like it.


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## Elizabeth (Oct 17, 2009)

Hi everyone, thank you so much for your replies. I'm sorry I haven't been on this thread since posting the question! My brother and his family came to visit for the fourth of July and I didn't get any internet stuff done for about a week.

I will be rereading all of your suggestions with great interest. I have already replaced one of my incandescent bulbs (the one above my workbench) with a 200w equivalent compact fluorescent and will see if that helps at all, and go from there. I might need to wait till winter to know if it gives me headaches, as it's staying light well past 8 PM in Oregon these days!


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## Elizabeth (Oct 17, 2009)

Richard, thanks for the tip about the EarthLED lights - I may get some of those for in my house!

BRTech, I do have a stud finder and it hasn't been totally accurate, I usually need to drill a few small pilot holes before I find the stud even when the finder says it's there. I wonder how wide the studs are - the guy I bought the house and shop from is a contractor who never hesitated to customize things. I use the finder in conjunction with a metal detection wand to try to find the nails, which makes things a bit more accurate, but it's still quite hard to find. I don't look forward to trying to find the studs in a nine foot ceiling!


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Elizabeth - 
First question would be is do you like the brightness of the shop with what you have now? I notice you are asking about "Better Light" but do you want MORE light?

If your space is bright enough - go halogen.
They absolutely are the same color and have awesome color rendering. This is what most use for any color inspection/Quality Control sites. For getting colors "right" Halogen is second only to sunlight. Everything else has gaps in its spectrum - the blue GE Reveal bulbs have lower color rendering than a basic incandescent, because the blue glass filters out the yellow. Can make things appear nicer….but if the end user is using normal incadescent/halogen - the color will be different.

LED is coming along - the 20 year lifetime claims are marketing. The LED lasts that long but the electronics inside croak before that because of turning the light on and off + power dips/storms etc. How often does you light just burn out while running…versus burn up the filament when you hit the switch.

For LED and Fluorescent - you want high frequency -not the old shoplights that hum at the 60Hz line frequency. The old magnetic ballasts were banned by the government anyway. Most fluorescent is T8 (1 inch diameter) and 24,000 Hz or higher because (1) more efficient and (2) you wouldn't hear it or see the flicker.
Dimmable LED will flicker - this is how the dimming of LED works. WHere the old dimmers on incandescent would just dial back the power and "Burn DIM" the LED cannot be dimmed like that. so what it does is intentionally flicker - if you want 50% light output - the LED is blinking at a rate that is only ON, 50% of the time. It is supposed to cycle fast enough that the flicker is not perceptable, but many are susceptible to this I expect that dbhost is one of them based on his experience he described.

For Color - forget about what is or isn't marketed as "Full Spectrum" You want to look on the package where (by law) the lamp will state its CRI (Color Rendering Index) Closer to 100 is better, you cannot go over 100.
In Fluorescent - Cool White is ~60, the Cool White Plus at Home Depot is 70, most T8 is 82-85, there are deluxe colors in the 90's
These performances are available in a range of temperatures. If you like the "Warm Incandescent feeling" Incandescent is around 27-2800 Kelvin. The Fluoresent version would be "Soft White" or "830"which is 3000K.
Cooler/Bluer would be Cool White (4100K), to the "Natural" which is 5000K, and Daylight @6500.
5000K is the color of the Walmart ceiling. 3000 is the color in Target. So that warmer/redder light in Target is because they use a warmer color. Same CRI.
Personally I like the warmer colors than the Walmart blue 5000K. Indeed 5000K seems brighter, but I find it harsh - and things finished there look different inside homes that are generally lit with incandescent.

Good luck. If you get stuck shoot me a PM. Lighting and phosphor color rendering is actually my day job.
Dave


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## Elizabeth (Oct 17, 2009)

Hi Dave,

When the sun is up I have enough light - I open the garage door and supplement with the overhead incandescents if I am farther back in the shop and feel the need. It's when the days get shorter again that I will have a problem. When the sun is down and I am relying only on my four incandescents, it's not enough. I do have an additional light attached to both my drill press and my scroll saw, and bought a twin-bulb portable halogen lamp from Harbor Freight last winter because I was uncomfortable making bandsaw cuts with the level of light that I had. So I do want more light. I just don't want to end up with "more, but worse" light, if that makes any sense.

The rest of your post looks extremely useful but I think it will take me multiple readings to get my head round it!


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Nice lighting summary Dave. How long are LEDs lasting in the real world on average?


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Elizabeth, I have never found a stud finder that works any better than listening while I tap the wall trying to hear the difference between solid and hollow. There are too many things in walls that change density; insulation in varying positions, scrap sheet rock;-((, power wiring…..............


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## SnowyRiver (Nov 14, 2008)

I would have to agree with everyone that FL lighting works great. I have a shop that is 21 X 21 ft and I have 10 two bulb FL fixtures in the ceiling. The shop lighting is like an operating room. Very bright and I like it that way. I also have station lighting at many of the machines like drill press, bandsaw, etc. for extra close work. I guess if it bothers you, you will have to look for other ideas though. I didnt use hallogen because of the heat like grandpa said.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

I agree with *Topa*: Excellent info, *Dave* !

My question would be …. do the LEDs suffer *dramatic* decreases in lifespan if they're short-cycled much ?

13 months ago, I replaced pretty much *every* bulb in my house with CFL's. I've since burned out about 15 of them. A minute's research showed that-if you have them lit for less than about 5 minutes-you're going to cut their lifespan BY 85+%.

In other words … a LOT of $$ down the rat-hole.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

I did the same thing, Neil, many years ago when they were like $8 a pop. I still buy them, but what I don't buy is the longevity claims. I've got 8' cold tubes in my shop and they buzz and hum like a jar of flies. I've got a few spot halogens strategically placed but I'm due for a lighting overhaul. I've got a couple shop windows that I'll usually trot a smaller piece over to. Someone here suggest those can/tube sunlights. I'm intrigued.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

So far … for the shop … I'm pretty good with the high CRI fluorescents.

I don't know whether the TUBE lights get the snot beaten out of them by short-cycling the way that the CFLs do, but … mostly … I don't short-cycle the shop lights.

BTW: my 4'-ers are dead silent. Are your fixtures old ? I had thought that the buzzing went the way of the Edsel ??


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Mine are pretty pathetic looking, Neil. Those 8' monstrosities are a hassle to deal with, even though there's an ACE that carries them on my way home. I'll probably end up doing a square arrangement like you have. I'm still debating whether or not to remove my ceiling entirely to expose the A-frame above. I wish I'd done it before I moved into the shop. Oh well. In the interim, I'm probably going to throw up some tracks to give me some spots in certain areas. Always a project, these darn shops.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

Man. Those are TINY fluorescent bulbs


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

The standard for lamp life has always been on for 3 hours, not on and off quickly. In my experience, fluorescent tubes with the old style copper and iron ballasts do not have an 85% shortening of life by on and off for a few minutes like Neal reports for CFLs. I have nothing to back that up but personal experience.

The humming is from the coils in the ballasts loosening up after many heating and cooling cycles. You can replace the ballasts. Noting else will cure it.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

*Topa*: you're definitely on my list of people that …. I'm REALLY GLAD are a part of this forum


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

^agree with Neil. Cr1, at least they're easy to replace one-handed


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

that is mutual Neil ;-)


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Hey Topa - your experience with the electromagnetic ballasts is right about cycling not really hurting the life significantly.
The majority of the new electronic ballasts - in particular "Instant Start" which is ~80%+ of the market with 4 foot T8, short cycles are a problem. The difference is that the EM ballasts would preheat the filaments in the lamp. The true preheat is the type that had the old clicking starter, newer is "program start" where they recognized warming the coils is a good idea (and mandatory for dimming) so there would usually be 1/2 second of so that the filaments are heated to glowing, then the ballast start pulse gives the lamp a 400 volt jolt to strike the arc.

The instant start ballast - popular because it is cheap and uses less electricity, also in big box retail where they are never turned off - the effect of starting is irrelevant so they prefer to save 2.5 Watts/lamp. (x~28Million lamps for a well known big box store running 24/7) adds up to big bucks saved in electricity.
The instant start does no initial glowing of the filament the ballast just drops a 450-700Volt pulse to start the lamp completely cold. Turning those on and off often will drop your life. 
Package ratings on life are based on having the lamps operated for 3 hours on then 20 minutes off.

Current life for most consumer LED bulbs is 20-30,000 hours. It may go down as the push to make them more affordable continues. I havent seen a lot of returns from true home use to have a feel for how they are doing.
Because the LED has no filament the device is really durable and not affected by switching, but the electronics (essentially a ballast) in the base is what dies. Same problem for the CFL the bulbs are often still good but the electrolytic capacitor poops out first.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

Hey Topa,
I just hung 2 more 4 foot fluorescents I bought many years ago. They are the ones for using in the very cold climates. Man these puppies are heavy. A serious ballast. They have the smaller diameter tube with the rectangle ends, and the socket on one side is spring loaded. The bulbs are designated "high output. I had to get the bulbs at a electrical supply as no hardware store carried them. I looked them up on the internet and the fixtures today are like $160.00 each!
I know I paid a lot less 10 or so years ago.
What is your opinion on these?
Boy! Are they bright!


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Those should be very good fixtures and lights, but not as efficient as the newer electronic ballasts. They are 800 ma bulbs. There is one higher at 1500, Very High Output. The bulbs will fit in each others fixtures. You will have shorter lamp and ballast life if they are mixed. They do put out a lot more light than the older slimline lamps with a single pin on the ends. They are available in both 6 and 8 footers.

That outdoor ballast should pop them right on!! ;-))

I do not do lighting any more, so I do not know what kind of life people are getting with electronic ballasts.


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## bubinga (Feb 5, 2011)

I have some questions for, who ever. If ,The old magnetic ballasts were banned by the government ,why are they available at the HD ? I'm talking about replacement magnetic ballasts,not in a fixture.
I am thinking of replacing some ballasts,in my fixtures,with electronic ballasts, and T8 bulbs. I was at HD ,for another reason and took a look at what they had ,this was a week ago.
I looked on eBay to see if I could find some deals on some electronic ballasts.
Where else might I find good prices on electronic ballasts, 110v ?


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Just because something is banned doesn't mean no one will be selling it. When the fines for selling it get high enough, they will stop) I'm not sure they were banned, however. Not sure where you get the best prices.

Replacing a few metal ballasts with electronic probably won't hurt anything. The electronic load in a larger building can cause significant problems with the load, especially the neutral. I have heard about commercial buildings with large electronic load; ie, computers and ballasts, where the neutral load was higher than the sum of the phases!! There are a few issues with these electronic marvels ;-)) I can imagine there may be significant radio and power interference issues if China junk producers start dumping poorly engineered or poorly manufactured electronic ballasts on the US market.

I wired a building 30 yrs ago where they got some real bargain fixtures. I sized my circuits for normal fixtures. These mercury vapors had no power factor correction. The load was 4 or 5 times normal. The conduits weren't large enough to pull big enough wire, so that had to be redone. The power company would not serve the building because the power factor was so bad. WE had to put in capacitor banks to correct it before they would connect the service. Those dirt cheap, bargain fixtures turned out to be more expensive the normal priced ones.


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## Grandpa (Jan 28, 2011)

I recently bought some of the fixtures like Jim C is talking about. I got them new (at an auction) for $9 each. They have a 25 pound ballast. I was told they were for lighting signs. The guy that had them said they were for outdoor use but the electrican said signs. I haven't gotten them installed yet but can hardly wait. I did test them on the bench. 
I thought the new laws or regulations or whatever on lighting fixtures went into effect in 2012. No more incandescents etc. Not sure on that. What that usually means is as the time nears the bulbs and repair parts will get cheaper and cheaper. We can use them, the store just won't sell them and the manufacturer can't manufacturer them. I don't know. The govt protecting me from myself again.


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## Elizabeth (Oct 17, 2009)

I just met with an electrician who told me something interesting that he says most of the general public don't know yet, but he's hearing from all of his vendors. Apparently there is a fluorescent phosphor shortage coming, and his vendors are expecting prices for fluorescent phosphor bulbs to increase by about 40% on August 1st and again about two months later. So if anyone is putting off a purchase you might want to do it this month!

From what he's read, most of the world's phosphor comes from a little island west of Australia. They've run dry, and went from being a very affluent country to a nearly destitute one.


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

China is beginning to choke the world for the rare earth and other strategic elements because they are simply producing the most and using most of that. The shortage has already caused old mines to be re-started with new technology and new mines to be readied for production.

I've been following this for some time from an investment standpoint, but in practical terms the threat of shortages will result in price increases whether from actual shortage or from speculation of shortage.

Phosphor (P) is mostly used for fertilizer.

Here's a blog some may find interesting…

http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/blog/post/2011/06/rare-earth-metals-the-electrical-industrys-newest-issue

Note that the 900% increase in P price resulted in a 15% product increase.


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## bubinga (Feb 5, 2011)

Priority Lighting
Phosphors Price Increase-- Lamp manufacturers are predicting record price increases in CFL light bulbs mainly due to the emerging shortage of rare earth metals used in their production- principally, phosphors. This shortage of metals is caused by a strategic reduction in exports by China, the world's current and dominant leader in rare earth mining. In October, the Chinese announced plans to not only cut their production, but also to reduce exports by one-third. Since China currently produces 95% of the world's total output of rare elements, the threat of global shortages is suddenly real and critical.

Consumption of rare earth metals is exacerbated by the increasing importance in the development of green technologies such as batteries, magnets, computer hard drives, TV screens, smart phones, and energy-saving light sources. Within a few years, rare earth metals such as europium, yttrium, and terbium will be incorporated into almost every light bulb on sale. Fluorescent light bulbs and video screens depend on fluorescent properties in certain rare earths. In fact, the first commercial use of a rare earth metal occurred in the 1950's with the introduction of color televisions. Europium, which glows red when hit with an electron beam, is still used today in LED and plasma TV's, along with another rare earth, terbium, which glows green. Energy-saving compact light bulbs gain much of their brightness from rare earth phosphors. With the industrialized world moving rapidly from incandescents to fluorescent bulbs, this industry represents a built-in and on-going demand for rare earths. The U.S. conversion from incandescents to fluorescents is scheduled to be complete by 2014.

The Kroll Institute has research projects underway which relate to the extraction and refining of rare earths. The biggest challenge to recovering these metals is separating them from one another. The company is also participating in a pilot program to recover rare earths from recycled fluorescent bulbs. This program, funded by the National Science Foundation, was initiated last year in conjunction with General Electric and Veolia, the country's largest recycler of fluorescent bulbs.

Rare earths are actually not all that rare. They are generally deposited together, and occur widely, but in great diffusion. Since rare earths tend to intermingle and are very similar chemically, separating them is a difficult and costly undertaking. Another factor limiting supply is the reality that there are only a few deposits large and concentrated enough to support a profitable mining operation. Because of its state-supported mining industry, China has largely made it impossible for the U.S. and other nations to compete in the marketplace. Because China controls the world's output, they also control pricing and availability, making the large industries who are dependent on the metals, vulnerable.

California's Mountain Pass Mine, recently sold to Denver-based Molycorp Minerals, holds the largest known reserve of rare earths in the U.S. Located south of Las Vegas in the California desert, Mountain Pass was once the world's largest producer of rare earth metals from the 1950's to the 1990's. Unable to compete against China's state-supported mining industry, Mountain Pass ceased production altogether - by the mid-2000's, U.S. rare earth mining had virtually disappeared, allowing China to become the dominant producer globally. Even as the demand has grown world-wide in new and emerging technologies, China's indication that it will cut its exports of rare earths has caused prices to skyrocket. The flip side of the coin is that as prices rise, mining these rare elements once again becomes a profitable enterprise. U.S. mines are producing again. Further exploration of future sites has begun in Wyoming, Alaska, and Idaho. The most optimistic estimates state that the U.S. can become self-sufficient in rare earth production by 2015, though more cautious analysts believe it will take more than a decade.


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## MedicKen (Dec 2, 2008)

I have 4-4 tube 4 foot surface mount fixtures with T-8 bulbs. I went with the higher color rated tubes and I must say I like them. My shop is a standard 2 car garage and I have wired them on 2 separate circuits. 2 of them above the garage door so I can turn them off when the door is open and 2 near the back wall. If the door is closed and all the lights are on I have plenty of light, with a nice color as well. These are not the cool white bulbs, I dont remember exactly but I want to say C95 or something similar.


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