# The Canada / USA Language Barrier



## shipwright (Sep 27, 2010)

*The phrase* "two countries separated by a common language" usually refers to the USA / England language diversity but we have one right here in North America. I guess I first noticed it when I started seeing Norm Abrams on TV years ago. He would talk in some sort of code about nails and board sizes. Upon further exploration I discovered that no, Americans weren't dumb enough to pay four cents for a little finishing nail, they just spoke a different language than I did.

Then there's the quarters of an inch thickness measurement for hardwoods. In my experience, I've never bought 8/4 boards in Canada or 6/4 or even 4/4. I always buy the 2", 1 1/2" and 1" stuff.

(That leads to another oddity in Canada at least, where we have for many years now been on the metric system but still buy almost all of our wood in inches. I am of the generation that made it through school in the imperial system just before the country went metric so I'm basically screwed up from the start anyway.)

And how about the all important gas mileage of the old shop pickup? It was bad enough before metric when upon crossing the border your gas mileage went from 20 mpg to 25 mpg (or vise versa) but now we on our side speak in kilometers per hundred litres so it becomes high math to compare fuel efficiency of one side of the border to the other.

This is starting to look like a rant so I'll wind up now. These were just the obvious ones that came to me as I was writing. I know there are lots more…...anyone???


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## grizzman (May 10, 2009)

when i first got into wood working, and had my first experiance with a sawyer, he flung around numbers like , well do you want this 4/4 6/4 or 8/4…....man did i feel dumb, for i know if he was using that as some sort of wood working code, i had no idea what he meant….my reply was well i want them about a 1 1/4 thick…and called it good…but for some reason i feel much cooler now if i talk to someone and say well i got it a 6/4…they look at me like what…just like i did in the sawyers place…lol…....then i have to explain it all…...maybe i should just say, 1 1/2…...might save me some time…yea paul, just wait until you start using the 8 penny nails…it really drains your pocket book…)


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

It can be confusing… can't it?!

Too bad we can't Standardize it… sure would be easier…


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## Karson (May 9, 2006)

Paul: I lived in Canada until I was 13. But we went to the USA almost every summer because my mothers kin lived in the states. So for about 1 month every year I was in America. The Americans had a hard time understanding the Canadians. They thought everywhere was like Sgt Preston of the Mounties.

I'm not sure if Americans are still sure of what their neighbours are like. (I still kick in the OU once and a while)

My father sold the family home to his brother when we moved to the States. His brother made the payment in whatever was the cheaper conversion amount. Either Canadian Dollars or American Dollars. It always ticked Dad off, but he never mentioned anything to his brother that I was aware of.

I think the sawyers terminology got into the main stream because a lot of hardwood that is sold is rough cut and the seller wants to get the best price. A 5/4 board that is surfaced might be only 1" when done but is sold as 5/4 to get the extra money.


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## Karson (May 9, 2006)

My favorite phrase at school was "A mouse in the house with a louse on it's snout out south." Everyone thought it was so strange.


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## toeachhisown (Eddie) (Mar 30, 2011)

one time in Detroit, Michigan before they had casinos we always went to canada as they did have them. there was a great difference that even late at nite it seemed a lot safer as you could walk around there without being mugged where across the river in Detroit you better have a big stick.  but the big difference was the money i won big time there in Canada at least i thought i was but when i cashed out there was a big difference of currency rate at least at that time it was. i didnt have nearly as much as i thought **


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## Porchfish (Jun 20, 2011)

What is all the concern aboat a language problem anyway ? What is this aboat for a boat wright ? I don't know from nuttin… a ..except the difference between a Qubecer and a Quebecois ! Nom de Dieu ! non sacre bleu ?


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## Tennessee (Jul 8, 2011)

How about the 32MM system, used in Europe after WWII to standardize all the remaining woodworking machines, where everything was measured in multiples of 32 millimeters? I think Ikea today still uses that system.


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## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

Go metric. 
Sorry but nothing makes sense in the different systems used in the USA.
For wires and sheet metal : the smaller the number the bigger the wire, same thing for gauge for guns,I believe. 
A 1/2"thick plywood is not 1/2"thick and it is different from particle board and MDF. 
A i/2" pipe is not 1/2" inside or outside ,and copper is also different and so and so on.

These systems are obsolete and a huge pain in the rear.


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## stefang (Apr 9, 2009)

Yes, different cultures can sure be different Paul. We measure fuel efficiency here by how many liters used per 100 kilometers. Maybe yours is the same?

I fully embraced the metric system used here in Norway, but almost all my woodworking books and websites are still using the imperial system. And in fact some woodworking measurements here are still in 'tommer' (thumbs or inches) The reasons are pretty obvious considering all the old tools, nuts and bolts, standards, etc. that are still imperial. When I read the English dailies, they count body weight in Stones (14 lbs to a stone last time I heard). Very confusing to start with. Since learning the 1/4 increment lumber thickness measurement system I still can't understand it's relevance. I'm sure there is some logical reason for it, but it escapes me. After using both systems for some time now I am familiar with the equivalents for the most common measurements, so that helps a little.


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## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

" After using both systems for some time now I am familiar with the equivalents for the most common measurements, so that helps a little." 
It gets really confusing for me when building something I use both systems at the same time.


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## Tennessee (Jul 8, 2011)

When I build a guitar, I find metric the definite way to go, save I am forced to use inches for the string scale length. Everything else is in MM, just too easy. I don't know where the 4/4 system came from, but wood to me is "thick enough", or "has to be planed" to reach a required MM measurement.


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## Dennisgrosen (Nov 14, 2009)

here they sell lumber in MM so a 4 by 4 should be min. 100×100 mm
but OH NO since people still say 4 by 4 they both advertise and sell them 
but the numbers is 95 X 95 mm 
and the prices has skyrocket ever since now they can sell in mm of thickness instead

for the milage we count how many kilometers per liters 
just to add to the confussion 

Dennis


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

I reckon I ain't got no idea bout what youins is talkn' abouts.

helluvawreck
https://woodworkingexpo.wordpress.com


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## greg48 (Nov 7, 2010)

I've learned to carry a small pocket caliper when I'm buying sheet goods or lumber. I don't make a value judgement as to which method is better, just that there is a difference (kinda like spaulding vs scribner vs doyle vs ad nauseam log scales). It helps to research the origins of the different terms to give a historical appreciation like why is a nail penny weight abbreviated with a "d". However, nothing raises a clueless look like requesting a sawbuck or finn from a young grocery clerk when asked if I would like any cash back ($10 or $5)?


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## bunkie (Oct 13, 2009)

How do metric woodworkers deal with increments smaller than 1mm? Obviously, .1mm divisions would be too small to see, so how is this handled?

I've heard it said that fractional measurements have an advantage in that you can always go the the next half-division. Also, this nicely fits Zeno's paradox.


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## Karson (May 9, 2006)

Greg: You mean that they are now rounding you off to the nearest $5.00. California is in tough shape.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*b2rtch*

I agree with you... If we could really DO IT! LOL

*That* is the problem! LOL


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

I have trouble buying a belt now days because they are all in metric. I have to try them on to see if the fits.
Does that mean I would have to take a 100×100 mm board home to see if it fits? 

I spent 32 years as a pipefitter and when they tried to shove metrics down out throats it bombed. I worked in car plants where the owner used metrics and we used imperial. Somehow we managed to get it together and get the plants built.

More power to the people that wish to use metrics but I'll just stick to my 8/4,6/4,5/4 etc.


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## shipwright (Sep 27, 2010)

Interesting comments. I was expecting to hear of more cases of differences in language but these threads are like your kids, you send them out into the world and they become what they become. Not always what you had expected.


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## Kentuk55 (Sep 21, 2010)

It takes genious' to mess with our heads


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## Bluepine38 (Dec 14, 2009)

Reminds me of some of the British Leyland Motor vehicles such as Land Rover and Triumph when they 
changing and confused, but did not do it all at once. One vehicle would have British Whitworth, Metric,
and Inch bolts. You needed three sets of wrenches and a good memory when you worked on these 
vehicles. Just as bad with the British Whitworth rifle with a bore of 0.451 inches. Then in the USA 
during the Civil war you had Confederate or southern taps and dies, still in inches, but with different 
threads per inch, had to be different just to be different. My tool box is still too darned big because most
of my tools, older Deltas are inch and all my vehicles are metric. One old timer was bragging that he would
never own a metric car and got real upset when I told him that the US manufacturers started going metric
in 1980 and by 1990 were mostly metric, he had never worked on his car and did not know. If you think
that is rough just think about the heavy equipment mechanics. Their tools start in the tiny fractions and 
metric measurements and go up to 4 inch or 100mm in size, the tool boxes are huge, and when the city
wanted to tax them as personal property the uproar was huge. Guess I will just wander out to the shop
and play.


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## Dennisgrosen (Nov 14, 2009)

Gus you are so right about treads on english cars 
I have had two mini coppers mrk 1 and mrk 2 .... my vallet was not happy those years
I used more on tools than gas to them then I got meself a ford rangeo pickup
then I had to buy the fourth set of inch tools unfortunaly my tap and die sets got stolen from me 
today it will cost the blue down from the sky to get it again … if possiple :-(

Dennis


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## davidmicraig (Nov 21, 2009)

My grandmother was from West Virginia, my mother and grandfather were from Kentucky. I have a mix of southernisms that come out in my speak. Add to it tradesspeak from woodworking and my work in IT, it is a wonder that anyone understands me at all.

Anything that is packed tight is "Packed to the rafters" for me. If someone offers me corn bread, it has to be the unsweetened kind. Corn bread muffins or bread that has been sweetened is "Johnny Cake." I always thought it was a southern expression but many friends that I have in the south never heard of that.

I am installing a hot tub and so I have to listen to the electrician explain 110, 220 circuitry. I have an old, used tub that has a 20 amp plug but is wired on the 110 side of things. The electrician originally wired it for 220 and I had to constantly interpret the issues I was having purchasing plug and receptacle between electrician speak and "I am not an electrician but sell electrical hardware at a store that doesn't train me" speak. Add to the confusion, I have a 120 volt plug that needs to go into a 120 receptacle but the circuitry is referred to as 110. The plug type is a 125.

I am not a mechanic, but I do work on my car and will replace items when I see the problem. I don't always know the lingo but can tell when something isn't working right. The first time I changed a gas filter because it was leaking, I merely took off the offending device, took it to the store, and said "I need another one of these…"

I find that language can be used to communicate or confuse. In many technical professions, some trades people use it to express membership in a club that others don't belong to. Sometimes I like to express complete ignorance while a sales person tries to use their lingo to explain to me why I have to purchase a a new expensive item that is way overkill for something I need. I will then turn the tables, talk the talk, and make the person feel like a complete idiot for trying to confuse and take advantage of my ignorance.

David


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## Martyroc (Feb 1, 2012)

I have broken the language barrier when purchasing lumber, I always ask for it the same way, " I need a board about yay big, by about so long". No matter where I go they know what I'm talking about LOL.


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## grizzman (May 10, 2009)

all i know is that im a yankee and right, and they are southerners and wrong…lol…just kidding folks, lets dont start world war three…


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## davidmicraig (Nov 21, 2009)

It pays to know your history  Not all the southern states seceded. My mom used to have a very thick Kentucky accent and a man came up to her one day and said "We won the war!." And my mom said "You're right, we did" and walked past him while he stood there dumbfounded.


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## vipond33 (Jul 25, 2011)

I live in Canada and am damn annoyed at Trudeau imposed metric. Grew up with Imperial (the lovely poetic system) and now I can't even send my daughter out to play in the back yard anymore, she has to play in the back meter. And when I tried to buy a Seiko watch online, customs wouldn't let it come into the country cause it was made with a quartz movement. 
Oh hectare.
gene


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

One year, I wound up in North Little Rock, at a training school for NCOs. I found myself playing interpeter between several 'dialects".

New hampshire "speak" to a 
Arkansawyer speak to a 
Virginian speaking to a 
Southern Ohio troopy. 
Say what you want, but end it with an "Eh?" Location? Grayling, Michigan, USA. No, we didn't go visit any Yoopers, either.

Know just how many ways to say "FIRE" there are down here? This was the same year that my unit also trained with the Moose-molesters from up north. And, yep, they gave me one of their "M. F." cards.


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## toeachhisown (Eddie) (Mar 30, 2011)

*shipwright*
i have been to Canada many times and love it up there, i really never noticed the language difference but im from Louisiana and french is a very common language even in the upper northerner parishes . i did one time tell a ******************** ass friend of mine there was a lot of them in Canada he said i must of skipped a lot of school as that was where they came from not the other way around. i had to confess i did skip a lot of classes.


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

Had my dad been a doctor, as opposed to a distiller, I would have been a Canadian today!

At the time my parents were immigrating, both Canada and the U.S. were both accepting WWII refugees but the priorities for the two countries were different.

One of my parents friends, a doctor, got on the same ship and when we landed in NYC, they went north to Canada while we went west to Minnesota.

The question is, now after *60 years* here in the U.S., would I know the difference had it been 60 years in Canada instead? That is one of those questions that really cannot be answered!

I don't know how he did it but I know that my dad made sure it was the U.S.!


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

*If someone offers me corn bread, it has to be the unsweetened kind. *
I'm from WVa and I'll second that.


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## ruddy (May 9, 2010)

I grew up in Melbourne Australia as a kid and in the 40's and 50's everything was Imperial. At school you had all the Imperial tables drummed into you, Rods,perches, bushells and all that ancient stuff. We had gallons, but not US gallons, land was sold by the acre, lineal measure was by 1/64th…1/32nd…..1/16th…..1/8ths….1/4…..1/2… inches, feet, yards, chains and links and roads trips were always in miles.I dont miss measuring in 1/64ths, and now love the simplicity of metric.
Water depth was fathoms and weights were all ounces, pounds hundredweights and tons. Starting in the Sixties things slowly changed to metric. Now, 50 odd years later, my brain is just about fully converted to things metric, however, when it comes to the diagonal measurement of a TV screen, my brain reverts to old habits. I just knew that anyone who had a 21" screen must have been rich! 
It is a bit like trying not to think of the Lone Ranger when you hear The William Tell overture. There are some things you cannot forget.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Now Shipwright… there must be some language problems between you folks in BC and the Newfies….


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## Karson (May 9, 2006)

When I make Cornbread, I want to sweeten mine.


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## grizzman (May 10, 2009)

put butter and honey on it, and ill eat them both.......


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## SCOTSMAN (Aug 1, 2008)

Only we Scot's can speak proper and awe that.The English people are too toffee nosed on occasion I say , and the yanks have an unearthly drawl sometimes don't yah know dahhrleen or if in New York speak loudly through their noses.Not at all like what I do do by the way jimmy. Alistair


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Unsweetened cornbread with butter and pure maple syrup is the only way to go.

Shipwright - for what its worrth 4/4 = 3/4 (finished on both sides); 1/2" plywood (in my book) should still be 1/2" unless its chinese, then it is less. If you get 1/2" ply from North Carolina, it is 1/2". It is less language, more cost cutting (ripoff).


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## shipwright (Sep 27, 2010)

for what its worrth 4/4 = 3/4 (finished on both sides)

No difference there. All the 1", 1 1/2" etc that we buy here is rough measurement. I never buy planed hardwood but when it is sold planed it is thinner but sold at the rough thickeness just like it is in the quarters system.


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## justoneofme (Aug 11, 2011)

Well Paul … I'm an old 'stick-in-the-mud' when it comes to measurements! Sometimes I find myself marking off in 'dots'. Example … 14 inches and dot-dot-dot (3/32nds?/3/16ths??). Sometimes it's just so much easier than having to think! But the real bummer for me is in baking and having to convert ounces, cups and pints! Thankfully I still have an old measuring cup in the cupboard … and my favourite old recipe books!!

As you can tell … I'm (just back) home for a two week spell, so if you have a chance to pop in for coffee please do! Just email me first as my landline is down for the summer. Looking forward to catching up!


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