# Woodworking and Intellectual Property Rights



## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

I was reading a comment in another forum topic where a fellow LJ lamented the fact that a photo of one of his posted projects ended up on a commercial website. Now, I think he has every right to make them take it down, but it got me to thinking about the whole issue of intellectual property as it pertains to woodworking.

One question that comes to mind… when does a design become so unique that you can rightfully call it your own? How many Maloof-inspired rockers have been made and sold by other woodworkers? Does Sam's estate deserve a cut of every one of them? If I make a stool that's taller than a milking stool but shorter than a bar stool, and I call it a midi-stool, do I have a right to cry foul if someone is making them and selling them next month?

The woodworker who complained about having his photo posted elsewhere (and I don't mean to sound like I'm picking on him at all) also said that he would not post his unique designs here for fear of having them stolen. But it seems like sort of a Catch-22… If his objective is to sell his work, then the more work he sells, the more it will be in the public eye. And the more it is in the public eye, the more it will be copied by other woodworkers.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I can understand intellectual property rights as they apply to , for example, recorded music. Every pirated CD is taking money out of the artist's pocket. It's his actual work, being sold or enjoyed without compensation. But do we really have the right to be upset if our design inspires others to do something similar? The phrase "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery" keeps coming to mind. Every hand-made piece of woodwork is unique in its own right. I just don't see any good way to determine what makes something "unique enough" to give someone exclusive rights to it.

I'm sure this will draw a lot of counterpoints, and I really want to see this though some other sets of eyes.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

I'll repeat what I said on that post Charlie in that if your design is so exclusive and your worried about copies being made don't post them on Ljs or anywhere else on line.


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## Cher (Dec 6, 2009)

That is a good question. The phrase "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery". Yes I would be flattered but if their work looked better than mine I would be annoyed….with my self LOL


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## tenhoeda (Jun 27, 2008)

I agree. If you are worried about copies (whether it's just a design element or the entire project) then the piece cannot be displayed anywhere for the public to see. Whether it's online or in a gallery. How many woodworkers haven't seen pieces on display and set out to build a replica? How many Stickley, Krenov and Maloof pieces haven't been imitated in whole or in part. I recently read an article in one of the magazines, where the author specifically set out to visit the Grove Park Inn to gain photos and measurements of one of the pieces on display there so he could build his own and do a write up for the magazine.

If we can't share design ideas and inspiration in fear of intellectual property rights, where will that take the future of the craft? Every age of furniture design has borrowed from the age before it in one form or another and has continued to build upon that.


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## Chipncut (Aug 18, 2006)

Almost everything that you see today, has been copied by someone over the years.

Some patents designs can be modified, so they aren't infringing on a patent,

The same goes for woodworking. A piece of wood is made by nature, & you can't duplicate it..


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## Beginningwoodworker (May 5, 2008)

If you build it and post it here, someone else going to build a verison of it.


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## Woodwrecker (Aug 11, 2008)

My only concern with anybody trying to copy my stuff is that they probably need glasses! LOL
"Did he actually mean to cut it that way?".....

Stickley, Maoolf & Krenov have nothing to worry about from me…..

(Good post Charlie. And some interesting responses.)


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## dfletcher (Jan 14, 2010)

I have run into this even when designing a house. I have seen such close versions of the custom house I just designed that I wonder if they didn't just take my design and change the name on it.

I am not always flattered, but I don't see the need to stop someone from using it, I wouldn't have gotten that job any way, they did.

As far as projects posted, I have copied a couple, just not exactly. I made a cross-cut sled for my table saw and began to work on a table idea based on one I saw here.

Of course, nothing is exact as they didn't post their design ideas or specs, so it is my version of what I saw and liked.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

This is a tricky subject, Charlie you seem to find the most perplexing subjects.
"Way back when" I was involved in mechanical design R&D and I seem to remember that a patent was not infringed if 22%? was different from the original patented design. You can easily make a 22% change and make "new" product that you can patent yourself.
Mechanisms and circuits are the hardest to crack, but I imagine wood products would be easy: use a different wood, change the color, use different router profiles, change dimensions etc.
For me, I see many posted projects on LJs that are awesome and way, way out of my league, but I also see some little feature within a posted design that I take note of - just because that method might help me later to incorporate in my own design maybe later, and the method noted may not even be used on the same type of product showcased.
Just wish I had patented the wheel instead of the Edsel.


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## uffitze (Apr 23, 2010)

Charlie, there are a couple of recent threads (http://lumberjocks.com/topics/17233 and http://lumberjocks.com/topics/17108) covering some of the basics of intellectual property law.

Now, enforcing your intellectual property rights is a whole other story. The first hurdle that you've got is simply being aware that you have IP rights, and knowing the proper places to register the IP so you can actually get compensation should you ever have to go after somebody for copying your stuff. The second obstacle that you've got is actually finding somebody copying your designs. I don't know if this is easier or harder in the internet world. And, of course, the third hurdle that you've got is successfully litigating to get fair compensation for the other guy stealing your ideas.

It seems to me that many if not most woodworkers prefer to just stick their head in the sand and ignore the whole issue. Personally, I argue that if you sell your work, you need to be aware of the issues simply so you don't violate somebody else's IP rights and open yourself up to an expensive lawsuit.


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## TimLawson (Apr 27, 2010)

Charlie,

Good thoughts. I liked your analogy with pirated CDs but I think that sampling may be a better one for designs. I think that if there is blatant attempt to resell a copy of your pieces using your original maker's images - then that is theft in my mind.

If there are design elements you could reasonably claim as original - that then gets iffy. There is such a thing as convergent evolution or, if you're a Rupert Sheldrake fan, as morphic resonance. The interplay of the subconscious and the conscious in the design (or creative) process can generate things you can genuinely believe to be original. Even though the design or design elements are an unconscious utilization of things you've seen elsewhere.

The good thing about furniture is that it has to be made and (as somebody said above) the wood and the craftsmanship strongly impact the finished piece. Marketing and selling your work adds a whole level of complexity and you have to share your designs and ability to design to succeed.

I'm going to misquote Bill Bruford (the drummer) when asked about his tunes or themes being reused "I can come up with better tunes and better riffs the next day."

The design process should never be static. If you design a good piece somebody is going to copy it - be flattered.

Tim


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## iowawoodworker (Mar 30, 2010)

There are actually several questions of intellectual property (IP) here.

The first is the IP associated with the object you've built… there are many questions that must be answered around patent-ability of your "invention" and these are very well understood in the area of patent law.

For me, I cannot claim any IP of anything I've built… None of what I've done so far constitutes an "invention"; it's all pretty much based on items that have already been released to the public domain via LJ, or any other form of publication (blog, podcast, television show, books, etc.) These "inventions" are not really protectable under patent law because they are "obvious to anyone skilled in the art". This is one of the primary questions that must be satisfied when applying for a patent; it's a very difficult requirement to meet.

For instance, Norm's "Mobile Assembly Table" probably could not be patented because, in my opinon, it's construction is obvious to those skilled in the art of woodworking. However, if Norm could make a case that the "retractable" casters on this project were his invention and met the utility and obviousness criteria, among others, he could patent that invention and protect it from being used by others without permission.

The second issue is around IP associated with the documentation & photos you've taken, which are not questions of patent law, but copyright law.

For example, when Norm sells his plans at New Yankee, what is protected are the written plans; they represent real IP arising from the creativity of the artist/craftsman, and are very easily protected by a copyright.

Similarly, the photos on New Yankee are protected by copyrights such that others may not use them without permission. New Yankee has the legal right to make a take down request to such users, and can also bring suit against the perpetrator if desired.

This is the area I commented on in a blog post a couple of weeks ago. My use of the Creative Commons license for the photos I post allows anyone to use them for whatever purpose they wish, and to modify them (the pictures, or sketchup files) however they wish with two caveats: 1. If you make changes, those changes must be made available to others with the same license, and 2. You cannot use my IP for commercial purposes (i.e. you can't use my picture for advertising anything without my express permission).

Finally, there is another form of intellectual property protection called "trade secrets" which I can't really comment on since I'm just now learning about the concept. This kind of protection is for processes and tools that wouldn't meet the criteria for patent-ability, but are somehow unique and allow construction or production of something in a non-obvious way. My guess is that many jigs and construction methods in woodworking would fall under this sort of protection.

My $0.50…

Mark


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Good points, Tim.

I've been writing music for nearly 40 years. There are only 12 notes… it's pretty much impossible to put them together without being influenced by something you've heard before.


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## Gregn (Mar 26, 2010)

I'm a hobbyist so I may copy something, but inevitably I put my own twist into a project. Whether I copy something already done or a set of plans. Since I rarely ever sell any of my work, its either for personal or for a gift. So I don't feel that I have infringed upon anyone's income in something I've made. Your post does put me in mind of a Little House on the Prairie episode called the Legacy. Where Charles builds a table goes into production, then a competitor comes along buys one of the tables and takes it back to his shop. He then breaks it down and builds it cheaper not having the quality of the original table. Charles gets mad confronts the competitor, who responds with sue me, by the time it goes through the courts I will have already made my profit even if you win. So no matter what you do, someone somewhere sometime will copy it regardless of what you do.


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## uffitze (Apr 23, 2010)

Well Greg, if you as a hobbyist copy something, you are still (possibly) violating somebody's IP rights. Just like making a copy of a CD or DVD is illegal even for your own personal use. Of course, if you put your own personal twist on it, you may be changing the piece enough to get away from the IP, but you have to be careful that you don't copy any unique artistic elements of the piece.

Of course, as a practicality, it will be tough for the IP owner to find your copy and come after you for the royalties that he/she is probably entitled to. But, then again, if you post a photo on a site like this of a copied piece of furniture, you open up that possibility.


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## cliffton (Dec 18, 2009)

the amount of failure to understand IP in this thread is epic. go ahead try to patent a furniture design, you would definitely get laughed at. Now you could easily apply for a TRADEMARK and get it and sell your furniture as "John Smiths designed furniture" but getting a patent on something requires that there not be prior art. Even Sam Maloof can't patent his furniture. But he can copyright the design drawing and then sell it, but if you wanted to buy one of his chairs, copy it and sell it as your own, but not call it "Sam Maloof", there is nothing he can do. But if you use "Sam Maloof" anywhere in reference to the item that you made he can sue you because of trademark infringement.

in reference to the comment about pirating CD's, what drives the price of the CD actually isn't the paying of the artist for their work. In fact the artist receives very little of the price of each CD. usually it is around 20 to 30 cents. the rest is corporate fees. The music industry (not artists) do not want to suppress pirating, they want to suppress the technology to be able to distribute (theoretically) infinite copies of a song/album for a (theoretical) zero cost. The capability to reach (nearly) everyone in the world with your music without them as the gatekeepers scares the crap out of them, because it makes them obsolete. This has already been proven with Jamiroquai, Oasis and Radiohead's, free downloads, they (the artists) made millions off of donations, only 1 in 3 people that downloaded Radiohead's album actually donated money and they still netted 750,000 US dollars for that single album. The point is that the cat is out of the bag and the record companies want to put it back any way that they can.

To the person that posted a photo of his work online and then got pissed that it wound up on a commercial site. Your work when you took the picture is copyrighted. though you can register with the Library of Congress it is not required under copyright protection.

A. Although a copyright is created automatically when a work is created, there is a procedure for registering a copyright with the Library of Congress. Remember, registration is not required for copyright protection.

There are three benefits to registering a copyright. First, registration creates a public record of a copyright. Second, registration of a copyright is required in order to file a lawsuit for copyright infringement. Third, if a copyright is registered before there is an infringement or within three months after the first publication of a work, the owner of the copyright can claim certain alternate damages plus attorneyís fees. These alternate damages are called statutory damages and they can be awarded in a sum of up to $100,000 for willful infringements. The registration process itself, does not alter the fact that the owner of a copyright is always entitled to his or her actual damages plus any profits earned by the infringner. However, the suggestion that statutory damages and attorneyís fees are available can act as a catalyst for the quick settlement of a copyright infringement claim.

so since the photo showed up on a commercial site, register it and sue their ass.


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## Kristoffer (Aug 5, 2009)

The only thing that seems wrong is that they took the actual photo and posted it on their site. The two arbors and the deck (one of the decks was already there) that I've posted in my projects were designed by somebody else, but Gary and I did the work. I'd love to give the company (designers) credit, but I wasn't sure how I could mention them without pissing somebody off. They are based in Austin and they are a Deck Company. Do the math.
cliffton touched on everything except partial copyrights, which I think are the worst and I'm not even going to get into that mess. 
AND, there are artist that complain about pirating….. The ungrateful d-bags that have made millions off of their fans and cry like babies when a guy downloads a few songs for free. Your welcome Lars Ulrich and friends.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

I think clifton was right about it being mostly the record companies, in fear of their own obsolescence, who make a huge issue of the illegal downloads.

The legal aspects of intellectual property are a tangled mess. It wasn't really my intention to get into all that… I was more interested in hearing what you guys thought about the moral and ethical issues. And, in particular, whether it was even realistic to try to claim ownership of a woodworking design.

Thanks for all your thoughts.


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## Gregn (Mar 26, 2010)

Uffitze, I hear what your saying about IP rights. Which if you copy exactly you are infringing those rights. I forget what the exact percentage of change is in order to not be infringing on copy rights. But if you take the main plans of the project you want to build then take parts of other plans to add to that, or add other features different from the original this frees you from that infringement. Copy rights and patent rights are only good for a certain amount of time and then have to be renewed to remain effective, or it moves to public domain whether its music, movies or plans. The only project that I can recall that I copied exactly is the country bench which is posted in my projects section and was taken from a book that I had purchased. Which because I bought the book entitled me to do that. Would I copy another woodworkers work here or on another site, not without asking them first. Most of what I build is of my own ideas or a combination of plans and my own ideas. So maybe I don't copy but am inspired by another's idea that makes it my own.


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## tyskkvinna (Mar 23, 2010)

I have been involved in many forms of craft over the years and this subject keeps popping up at every corner.

You should see what the photography people have to say on it.. omg…

My somewhat tired and cynical opinion is to simply do what I do the best I can and as such, convince people they want my product from me. I have yet to come up with a concept that is so amazingly radical it deserves its own protection beyond the basics.

I have also learned… people don't really care if what I'm making is the most original idea ever, or something - they just want it well-made and a little different from the cookie-cutter things you see everywhere.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Lis, I couldn't agree with you more.


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## Karson (May 9, 2006)

I've been following this post. I think what Charlie said in the beginning was the picture that was posted was copied by someone else and posted on their web site. That is blatantly wrong and should not be done. They should at least post a picture of what they have done and not copy someone else's work.

The baby cradle/glider that I've posted on Lumberjocks and I won the first contest was my own design. I've never seen anything like it in all of my research. I've provided copies of my construction details to others that found my creation on LumberJocks. No one has made anything like what I made. I tried to discourage them by telling them that it might be considered an advanced to expert caliber work and if they feel that they don't have those qualifications they might want to rethink their planning.


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## Kindlingmaker (Sep 29, 2008)

As for me, this site and IP this is what I wrote on a reply to one of my little projects; "Woodworkers are on this site to share as well as learn. I post these little projects so others can see that even the little fall off pieces of wood and thinking outside the box can be enjoyable projects. Use whatever you like and credit need not be except for pride in what you fashion with your own hands."


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## jockmike2 (Oct 10, 2006)

look down


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## JAGWAH (Dec 15, 2009)

Charlie I agree.

If your going to be original, you can count on being copied~ Mike's Hard Lemonade.

And while i always hope something I make is worthy of theft I have my own quote about such people.

He's the kind of person capable of riding the wind but only the wind passed by others~ Ara


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## Allison (Dec 31, 2007)

Charlie, I also wrote on that thread. I believe all this person was saying was that an actual picture that he had taken of one of his projects was used in a commercial website and in doing so made the viewer of said website, assume said website, had something to do with the project. That is what I read into that thread. I (assuming) think the complaint was the fact there was no credit where the credit was due, namely fellow LJ'ers name was not mentioned (beside the fact the picture was blatantly stolen) from here/him. I too bitched about something similar. To my surprise I found a wood working blog thru google when to my shock was one of my projects I had made and taken a picture of in my house and posted on my woodalley website. For me, in all reality, it was a compliment,BUT I never gave anybody permission to post my project as one of their own. This is what this person had done to me. They claimed my picture was their own. There is something there that does not feel right. A bit violating. 
I have put this on my watchlist as I too would like to hear the opinions of others! Good question Charlie!!!


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Allison, I totally agree that using someone's photo in that way is wrong. But the same poster said he wouldn't post any more of his projects here for fear of having his designs copied by competitors. It was really the issue of copying designs I was focusing on.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

In one of my earliest threads here, I spoke of the theft of my designs which I was creating and consigning to an upscale seacoast gift shop. The owner of said shop took note of which items sold fastest, and then commissioned some hacker to replicate my successful designs for less money. That whole experience soured me, all the prototypes and marketing at my expense, cheerfully handed over to another source. So… I resolved to make items that were not easily duplicated, by me designing and building a spiral ornamental lathe. This, I'd hoped, would have put me in a class of my own, beyond the limits of the rank-and-file woodworker and thus ensuring there'd be fewer copycats. Imagine my surprise when my ornamental lathe project entry itself was stolen right out of the LJ site and put in some pseudo-woodworker's website, as if he himself made it!! here: http://lumberjocks.com/topics/15915#reply-169265 In regard to: http://lumberjocks.com/projects/29458 Though many woodworkers empathized, I was astounded by the apathetic dismissal of the whole theft issue. Though we've all moved on, I still have not processed all of that recent information, and I need to restructure my whole approach to this proprietary ownership thing. It kind of reminds me of this furniture workshop in Portland, Maine, Thos. Moser, who sold a book of his designs of American heritage furniture, complete with drawings and dimensions, ...and then sued people for building and marketing furniture built from those plans!! Huh?? Ultimately, it's an issue for the courts, and whether my lawyer is better than your lawyer. The craft shows are well-attended only because people are looking for which of your designs they can plagiarize and make money with.


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## mnguy (Feb 4, 2009)

I think we all often get confused over what is legal and what is ethical. Claiming another's design as your own or violating an implied trust by actively shopping one's design to a lower bidder are both extremely unethical, but would seldom be illegal; that is, actionable under the law. As has been stated above very well by many folks; if you post your work in a public forum, whether it is LJ's, a contest website, your own virtual storefront, or somewhere else, the design is in the public domain and it is open to copying by others. It stinks, but that's the way it is and while you certainly can take action against people who copy you for profit, it is rarely worth the effort.

My suggestion for those who are hoping to profit from their designs - put your name on all images you post. It strengthens your claims of copyright to the image, which will discourage others from freely using the image.


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## TheDane (May 15, 2008)

poopiekat-I agree with mnguy.

I am in a business (computer software) that has to deal with intellectual property theft all of the time … somebody is either trying to reverse engineer our code, or just outright steal licenses. We take care to make sure our trademarks and copyrights are up to date, and use encryption algorithms to deter theft, but when it comes right down to it, we cannot afford the legal costs. It sucks, but that's life!

What is even worse about this situation, it can have a dampening effect on the willingness of folks like you posting projects. Personally, I thought your ornamental lathe posting showed some pretty neat innovation … I'm not going to build one, but I still appreciated it. The only way you could have made sure no one copied it would have been to never post it. If everybody decides not to post anything that shows innovation and craftsmanship, the whole LumberJocks community suffers.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

Thanks, theDane!
By the time the dust settled on that RSS scraping issue, I must admit I am much more in tune with the real world on the issues of stealing/borrowing/copying. And, in a perverse sort of way, yeah, finding my work to be worthy of theft is well, kinda flattering, if it weren't so abominable. Between the experiences with retailers indiscriminately seeking quotes behind my back, and the issues Jag spoke of in another thread about cut-throat shop managers/owners….I'm glad I have a great (non-woodworking) job, my mind and my health, a happy home and loving wife that puts up with sawdust so bad sometimes it sets off the smoke detector! But I can produce, create, and exhibit, share and give. I'd love to have another pro woodworking gig, but I know the grass is always greener….Woodworking is so much better as an *avocation*, rather than a *vocation.* In retrospect, I am a happy shop-rat, rather introverted, but the LJ site really appealed to me and I felt encouraged to share my stuff, stick my neck out a bit, and sure enough I got whacked around for it. I know you've been victimized by software pirates, TD, will this madness ever end???


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## TheDane (May 15, 2008)

I think part of the problem is the unenforceable nature of the IP laws. Actually, they can be enforced, but at what price?

The law firm we use has a guy who specializes in intellectual property rights (he has argued in front of SCOTUS and won), and he actually has dissuaded us from going after IP thieves on a couple of occasions. His point was that it would cost us far more in legal bills than we could ever recover in damages. There was a case we actually went to court on and won. The guy we sued had transferred his assets to some relatives and immediately declared bankruptcy. We have a judgment, but that's just a piece of paper that we can't eat or use to pay the phone bill!


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## savannah505 (Jul 31, 2008)

Well, I've found this to be quite interesting, being that I'm the one that all the talk is about. Yes I posted a table that the picture was taken and put on a website. Here is the address to the LJ page it is on http://lumberjocks.com/projects/14279 The company who took my picture is in Pakistan, and also put their name across the picture. They also joined LJ's and all they've done is post the one comment on my tables site. Most of the comments here are misunderstood of my feelings, so I would like to inform you of what is really going on in my mind. 1st. Yes, I'm somewhat flattered, if you look at my projects, you will see that all my work is of my own design, I don't copy anyone and then post it as my own. In fact, this particular table, I give credit to RJ for inspiring this design from one of his tables that he made, it is very different, but it still stirred my creative juices to come up with this design. By the way, it is a beautiful table and I recommend all of you to look at it. Here is the link to his table. - http://lumberjocks.com/projects/8205 I stated that I am disappointed in the taking of my picture, for a couple of reasons. I am getting close to finishing an idea that is worth many millions of dollars, that has never been done before, so this is a cheap lesson about letting it into the public eye before it is protected. I invent everything from new designs to tools and other things. I wanted very much to show it on LJ's as some of the pieces incorporate wood. It is the technique and tooling that is totally new, and I must keep it to myself or to only trusted people. People like RJ, Lee Jespberger, Dennis Zongker, Allison, have seen pictures of what I am talking about, because I trust them after knowing them for awhile now on LJ's. Pretty much every idea anyone has comes from another idea or work they have seen done by someone else, starting with the invention of the wheel. I never intended to go into production with this table, so it is not disturbing to me if someone were to copy it, it is flattering to me. It is however disturbing to see my own picture on someone elses website, making it look like they did it, "holy crap" there's my sofa in the background. I think you would all feel a little violated in some way. If they copied it and put their piece on, I have no problem with that. Since they are in Pakistan and are an onyx supplier, I could do better and cheaper, by hiring someone there to make them disappear rather than go after them in legal channels. LOL, I'm only kidding, it's not that important to me. "Thedane" who's comment is just above this one, is right on the money, and it seems that the scale of justice is tipped by money more than by truth these days, sadly. I will be more careful of my work and who I let see it, especially this "new thing" I am working on until it is protected, and in the future will be putting my name or trademark on the pictures, which I haven't done in the past because I think it detracts from the piece. I thank you all for your comments, especially those who are sympathetic to my situation. - Dan


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Dan, since I started this thread, let me say this: I certainly hope you don't think I'm not sympathetic to your situation. I don't recall a single post, including my original comments, stating it was okay for that company to use your photo. I think we all agree on that.

Also, it sounds like what you are working on falls more into the category of "invention" as opposed to a woodwork design. If you stand to make money from this innovation, I am 100% in agreement with your decision to keep it pretty much under wraps. There are unscrupulous individuals out there on the lookout for good ideas to steal.

I was really just using your comments in the other thread as a springboard to discuss the idea of ownership of aesthetic ideas. I sincerely hope you didn't take it as a personal put-down in any way. If you did, I apologize.


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## savannah505 (Jul 31, 2008)

Hey Charlie - Not at all, no offense taken in any way. I appreciate your sincerity very much. My new idea has more to do with stone, but it is very artistic and unique, I have different designs of this same idea, and one of them has some wood carving in it as part of the design. I have liked sharing my ideas and designs with fellow LJ's very much, and of course I like looking at the ideas others have, it helps keep my creative juices going, though I owe my ideas and give credit for them to God for all He has done for me and the gifts He has given me. Thanks for your comments. - Dan


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

savannah505, do not tell anyone what you are working on, if it is possibly patentable. The law is pretty clear on the time between disclosure and patent. That's usually one year, iirc. If you are working on something that takes longer than a year, non-disclosure is paramount.

I don't like that the foreign company should be using your photo. That is blatantly unethical. Hard to recover your IP in this case, though. I hope you have the date on your photo, in case they come after you. It's happened to people I know. There's a lot of rottenness running loose in the world, for sure.


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## jm82435 (Feb 26, 2008)

I just visited the site in question. It looks like he is trying to use the table as an example of the beautiful application of his product (onyx table top). I didn't see where he was selling copies of the table per se. No matter, it is clearly a violation of copyright to use the picture without permission. 
I would have to think patenting a table would be pretty hard to obtain and enforce. First, if you were able to get a patent, it is up to you to defend it (pricey) Then all someone has to do is show "prior art" - that is to say - find a similar table made before yours and your patent is unenforceable…


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## grizzman (May 10, 2009)

im sure after reading this, that Dan will be much more careful with what he can post here and what will need to wait until all the legal things have been taken care of..i hope you can recover in some degree Dan the picture or take legal action against this company…your work is so beautiful and i enjoy seeing it whenever you do post it..rj has some real artistic abilities and his work inspires ..maybe this will be a good lesson for those who do create things that they plan to make financial gains on…to wait until the proper time ..i love viewing the beautiful pieces here on jocks..its what drew me to this site in the first place…grizzman


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## nailbanger2 (Oct 17, 2009)

I'm hoping that some day I will post something on here that does get copied. It would be a thrill!

I can see the other side as well, but as has been stated above, don't post it if you don't want it copied.


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## Gregn (Mar 26, 2010)

Dan, Thanks for opening my other eye to see more of the whole picture. It is a beautiful table indeed. I guess I'm just use to such a wide variety of plans that are freely available and gather my ideas from them or out of necessity come up with ideas of my own. If you look at some of the projects I've posted you can see what I mean. Such as the TV Tray its basically a table on wheels to fit a need no plans there. Same for the Table Saw cabinet. As for the rest you can see there's nothing special in design, so I'm not concerned with someone copying my work. If I did the kind of work you do I can see the need to protect one's design. I hope you get your designs and work protected soon, would enjoy seeing more of your projects without you having to worry about picture or design theft. Thanks for PMing me.


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## tbone (Apr 24, 2008)

We don't know exactly what the Colonel's "11 herbs and spices" are, and we don't know what the formula for Coca-Cola is. The fact is that these are heavily guarded properties and will never be posted on a 'food and drink' website. 
The point is: if it's YOUR idea and you want to protect it-DON'T share it here.

I think this site is for SHARING ideas, designs, techniques, mistakes, and solutions. If you check out my projects, you will see that I have been HEAVILY influenced by one particular style. While I certainly don't claim the designs to be mine, I also don't consider myself a thief either. I don't have a gift for design, but I do enjoy figuring out and developing the techniques of past masters, all the while utilizing the tools I have at hand.
Maloof and Krenov didn't keep any secrets that I'm aware of-in fact, they TAUGHT us how to build their pieces.
I don't think that it stopped them from making a good liviing.


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## renners (Apr 9, 2010)

you've all lost the run of yourselves here, the original complaint is that someone posted a photo and someone else took the photo and used it for their own website… nothing mentioned about copying the job. It would be interesting to see what Judge Judie made of this.


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## juniorjock (Feb 3, 2008)

I don't have an answer for this, but I do have a couple of things to think about…..What if… you sold a piece of furniture to someone and they took the photo and posted it on a site? It's their piece, but also the woodworkers creation.

On the topic of photos. This is pretty much cut and clear. If a pro shooter takes a photo and you have copies made from the prints he/she sold you, you are in deep doo doo… The original shooter doesn't have to do anything but sue the customer and the lab that copied the photos. I really don't think the copyright on woodworking is as straight forward as that, but it would be nice if it was.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

On the other hand, you have a secure warm fuzzy outlook if nobody would want the designs and crap you make. Only LJs with talent and skills should be concerned of theft. I don't have that worry!  It's good to be no good. lol


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## juniorjock (Feb 3, 2008)

I heard that….... count me in on that Roger.


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## grizzman (May 10, 2009)

can i join too…....can we meet at rogers house…i want to sit in the garden set he made and drink some dr pepper too….....hes a pepper..im a pepper…wouldnt like to be a pepper too….....da da dee dee…....lol


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## grizzman (May 10, 2009)

may be charlie will show up too…show us his healed up spotted richard….lol….....i know…bad boy…...


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Hey Grizz… I resent that! (being invited to the no-talent Dr. Pepper party, I mean)

Now if you want to talk about my spots, well… this is turning into a whole 'nother kind of party.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Grizz and his dubious friends
Y'all welcome to come over and meet in the garden, just let me know what size shovels, picks and forks you use. Sorry to say I don't like DP or Coke, but I can offer you a nice cup of hot tea, in china cups - with milk and possibly a tea biscuit or two, providing you use good manners and bend your pinkie while holding the cup handle.
Please advise full names of those coming so the place settings can be name-set. Please remember the Rose Water is NOT for drinking.


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## grizzman (May 10, 2009)

well charlie i know how you folks are near the french quarter and all…so i will pass on that party…just the dr pepper in the gardens at rogers will be fine…......lol…...oh and i must aplolagise for the no talent party thing..we all know your a pro at lumber jock talent…maybe its time for me to chew on my foot for awhile…grizzman


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Grizz, truth is I've got no talent for woodworking at all, but I'm a good enough photographer to make dog doo-doo look halfway decent.


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## StevenAntonucci (Aug 14, 2007)

FWIW- I think IP rights are pertinent, but only because it started with the perps lifting a picture off of the Lumberjocks website. I believe that LJ would have a case, but I am not so sure about the original owner, since the "theft" occurred from LJ. I believe that by posting the pictures on LJ, you probably grant LJ some rights and lose some of your copyright protection. I'd bet it's mentioned in the terms of service.

It's pretty universally agreed that it's a shady practice at best (picture lifting), but I believe that most woodworkers copy other woodworkers work rather than design their own. I suspect that it is a majority of us that see something, and try to make it. Design is probably the hardest part of the hobby, and copying is part of the process of learning. I believe that IP rights do not apply to making something for yourself (unlike CD pirating where an exact copy can be made) because it would be highly unlikely that you'd get an exact copy. So much of the object being created comes to life via the creatve process- we're not making hundreds with a computer!

So clearly, what is right and what is legal may not be the same thing. Educating people about the value of designing your own work is a great starting point.


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## Chipncut (Aug 18, 2006)

*Dan,

I can see your concern about someone else swiping your design, & taking credit for it.

I was wondering if Lumberjocks could be set up, so if someone uploads a picture,

to have a watermark applied to the image, by the request of the originator, if so desired.*


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