# Another table saw mishap



## WoodenDreams (Aug 23, 2018)

Last spring a friend of mine (he's 72 yrs old) was working in his shop, and cut about a 1 1/2" of his thumb off. Emergency room wasn't able to reattach it. He wasn't able to ride his Harley last year because of it.

Another person I know from church (about 30 yrs old) working on a jobsite, just cut off 1/2 his thumb, pointer and middle finger off his right hand with a table saw mishap. Too for gone for the Emergency room to reattach. He was pretty good with the guitar and drums. Sorta ends that.

Both of them had the safety blade guard on the table saw removed at the time. It sure makes you think about your fingers.

Just a reminder for what the blade guard is for.


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## HowardAppel (Feb 3, 2010)

Absolutely correct. I was building a new house for myself about 30 years ago and one of the subcontractor employees was using my Powermatic 66. He took off the blade guard so he could make a cross cut free hand-piece kicked back, hit him in the forehead and stunned, he put his hand down, right across the blade. Cost him his right thumb.

There are so many YouTube channels that just make me scream-John Heisz, cutting narrow strips with no blade guard (he claims he doesn't need one) and no push stick, people working in the shop wearing flip-flops-guess what happens to your toe when you drop a piece of 8/4 oak on it, running the table saw, router, band saw, etc. wearing loose long sleeves, no eye or ear protection because a pair of safety glasses is too expensive.

I am not sorry about this rant-what people are being taught by watching YouTube pisses me off. Yes, I know there are lots of safe YouTubers out there, but there are a lot of ********************ing idiots. And I suspect that there has been an increase in injuries during the pandemic from newbies watching YouTube and then running before they learn to walk.


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## mtnwild (Sep 28, 2008)

I know I should just keep quiet, but FYI, there is a method to, I know, but believe me, a way to regrow those fingers. It's been done!
The military uses it on some of their wounded to regrow lost muscle mass and other things. 
Not widely talked about, maybe it's in limited supply, I don't know.
You might consult a doctor about how to get hold of some of the powder. 
I've seen it work !!! REALLY!!!


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## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

Bad hand positioning and inattention. Someone crossed the kerf line with a body part and didn't move in time. The three fingers cut indicate splayed fingers. (Weren't we just talking about this?)

I wish manufacturers would etch and color red the kerf line as a permanent indicator.

Another idea completely unrelated is powered blade retract. Two offs, stop and stop w/ auto down. All it would take is a motor, a switch and a clutch to connect the motor to the blade height crank. Stop sw on full down kills down motor and clutch until next run. It would all the "grabbed before blade stopped" fails if blade goes zzz-ip and is below the deck in an instant.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

ok im gonna go out on a limb and piss some one off im sure but the first thing i get rid of on a table is the guard.it's in the way most of the time and just creates more dangerous situations imho.the first thing for safety is a splitter,and then the use of push sticks.if your fingers never get near the blade they will never get cut off.it's pretty simple and common sense,and thats the deciding factor.im 61 and have been using ts for about 55 of those and still have all 10 of mine.beieve what you want,because everyone is an expert.


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## sansoo22 (May 7, 2019)

> I wish manufacturers would etch and color red the kerf line as a permanent indicator.
> 
> - Madmark2


I was just thinking this the other day. I was making a non-through cut and even though I was using my grr-ripper I was thinking it would be nice to know exactly where the blade is. I hadn't even considered it could be a warning to keep fingers on the other side of the line if you intend to keep them.


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## corelz125 (Sep 23, 2015)

The guard on my saw is way to big and clumsy. I took it off and it hasnt been back on.


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## mtnwild (Sep 28, 2008)

Furthermore: Accidents happen, but when working with ANY, power tool complete concentration is reqired.

You should make the cut in your mind a few times by the time you cut for real. Visualize…

I've seen pizza workers get sloppy and get their hand in a metal pizza roller and loose a hand or arm. 
I'm really saying we need to focus while working. We get sloppy with familliarity with using tools. Focus…
I say this because I've seen it so many times over my years of working in hard situations, with lots of pressure. Usually it's young guys thinking we make it look so easy they think they can do what you did too…

Just slow down and let things happen at their own pace, SAFTY FIRST, think it out…Do it right…


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## EdWeber (Jun 17, 2021)

> Absolutely correct. I was building a new house for myself about 30 years ago and one of the subcontractor employees was using my Powermatic 66. He took off the blade guard so he could make a cross cut free hand-piece kicked back, hit him in the forehead and stunned, he put his hand down, right across the blade. Cost him his right thumb.
> 
> There are so many YouTube channels that just make me scream-John Heisz, cutting narrow strips with no blade guard (he claims he doesn t need one) and no push stick, people working in the shop wearing flip-flops-guess what happens to your toe when you drop a piece of 8/4 oak on it, running the table saw, router, band saw, etc. wearing loose long sleeves, no eye or ear protection because a pair of safety glasses is too expensive.
> 
> ...


 I have to agree.
Many of these people have had no experience or background using any tools what so ever before they picked up a camera and decided to show me how to make a cutting board. 
The flip flops, the lack of any kind of common sense, let alone respect for their tools and on and on. I honestly can't watch too much at one sitting.
Don't even get me started with the "I can do anything with an angle grinder" crowd. It's as if some of these people are trying to hurt themselves.
I know we all do things in the safety of our own shops that others would think unsafe but keep that to yourself, don't post it for the world to see. That just shows you're unsafe and have bad judgement too.
I think what gets me the most is the fawning replies to one of these videos that make me cringe. 
People commenting, "you're so clever" or " your a genius" Just after the guy broke every safety rule and displayed every bad habit known to man. It's perpetuating the stupidity and you can't fix stupid.
I really wish these people would stop, take a moment to slow down and actually think about what they're doing from time to time. If nothing else but to give us the illusion they care.
Just my opinion


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## CWWoodworking (Nov 28, 2017)

From a pure ideologic point of view, I wish SS technology or equivalent would be on every saw. It works, its cheap, and has zero effect on user. Its kinda like a seat belt only it works better and is less intrusive.

I dont mind a guard for ripping, but most use their saw for a lot of operations. I never use it at work.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> ok im gonna go out on a limb and piss some one off im sure but the first thing i get rid of on a table is the guard.it s in the way most of the time and just creates more dangerous situations imho.the first thing for safety is a splitter,and then the use of push sticks.if your fingers never get near the blade they will never get cut off.it s pretty simple and common sense,and thats the deciding factor.im 61 and have been using ts for about 55 of those and still have all 10 of mine.beieve what you want,because everyone is an expert.
> 
> - pottz


I agree with Pottz. Me Miyagi taught me long ago that best way to block attack is to "no be there". I bought my old delta contractors saw brand new in 1993 and 90% of the time the guard is off. I just make a habit of not sticking my hand into
the spinning blade. Same with a running car engine, I don't stick my hands into the belts and pulleys as I have seen those take fingers off.

IMO these people are lucky. I. The past year I personally know 3 people that died of Covid, another from a heart attack, 2 more from cancer, and another from a car crash. Pretty sure any of them would trade places with these guys(I have to speak for them) Danger is all around.


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## Woodmaster1 (Apr 26, 2011)

I plead guilty to removing the guard. I keep the riving knife in and use a push stick or the gripper. I know there is no excuse to not use the guard unless you are dadoing or some other special operations. I cut thin strips on the band saw. Maybe I will reform and start using the guard except when I have to remove it. I try my best to abide by the 3" rule of not getting my hand any closer to the blade. When I taught woodworking I always used the guard to set a good example. I taught 40yrs and no table saw accidents. I would yell at students not following the safety procedures. Maybe I should yell at myself for not using a guard more often.


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## sansoo22 (May 7, 2019)

> Furthermore: Accidents happen, but when working with ANY, power tool complete concentration is reqired.
> 
> You should make the cut in your mind a few times by the time you cut for real. Visualize…
> 
> ...


I've seen a few crazy accidents with just a kitchen knife. Used to work a smoke house at a popular bbq restaurant. Me and the other smoke house vets would be laughing and having a good time while trimming a few dozen cases of ribs. We did this daily with razor sharp knives but to us it was all muscle memory at this point. We were training a new guy and he thought it would be fun to join in on the good times. We warned him to pay attention to what he was doing a few times. Didn't work…within 10 min he was on his way to urgent care with a good flap of skin missing from his index finger. Pretty sure he even took off a chunk of bone on the second knuckle.

In hindsight we probably should have been more professional but that job sucked. Rib trimming time was like our slow time for the day. The only time the few of us manning the smoke house weren't flying around like something was on fire.

We never saw that new hire again…pretty sure he didn't like the job.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> I ve seen a few crazy accidents with just a kitchen knife. Used to work a smoke house at a popular bbq restaurant. Me and the other smoke house vets would be laughing and having a good time while trimming a few dozen cases of ribs. We did this daily with razor sharp knives but to us it was all muscle memory at this point. We were training a new guy and he thought it would be fun to join in on the good times. We warned him to pay attention to what he was doing a few times. Didn t work…within 10 min he was on his way to urgent care with a good flap of skin missing from his index finger. Pretty sure he even took off a chunk of bone on the second knuckle.
> 
> In hindsight we probably should have been more professional but that job sucked. Rib trimming time was like our slow time for the day. The only time the few of us manning the smoke house weren t flying around like something was on fire.
> 
> ...


That sure is a rib tickler of a story!


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## tvrgeek (Nov 19, 2013)

Bad design of the guards are a major problem. I want to use mine more, but it is in the way of safely pushing the wood. I did just finally pick up the micro-jig pusher block system thingie. The first small piece rip I did seemed quite a bit safer, but you still wind up right over the blade.

If you want a saw stop, buy a saw stop. Good saws, but not without issues. I decided not and just went for a newer saw with a riving knife. I hope I never regret it. My close calls were all due to no riving knife.


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## stevejack (Apr 5, 2020)

KNOCK WOOD. Seems every time I mess myself up its with tools with no moving parts. A chizle? A sticker razor scraper. A Hammer. GRAVITY! I guess because when I fire up my table saw I am terrorized the entire time. Not so much with a hammer.

I read an article years ago about Sawstop. It was written from the view of a injury lawyer. The short any table saw manufacture and business or school that DOES NOT USE SS or does not have a SAWSTOP type of device is doomed in the court room. Said something like this. Mister Wood Shop teacher,. Why did you and your school NOT have a SS in the class shop when they are readily available. So you went the cheap route and in so doing endangered the lives and health of you student body. Can you tell the jury why you did that?


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## shipwright (Sep 27, 2010)

Safety is in the "software" not the "hardware". (I don't use either the guard or a splitter. Never have.)

If you don't know what you're doing ……. Learn before you use the tool.
If you're not vigilant about paying attention on every cut …. Bad things will happen.

Guards or not, gloves or not, glasses or not, …….

Safe power tool use begins and ends between your ears.


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## LeeRoyMan (Feb 23, 2019)

HUMOR!


> So you went the cheap route and in so doing endangered the lives and health of you student body.
> Can you tell the jury why you did that?
> 
> - stevejack


Yes your Honor, You see, It's just like the law. When you disobey the law there are consequences.
And these consequences are decided by you.

We believe that teaching students that you have to obey the safety laws, of using saws properly, 
or there could be consequences. Only the consequences of breaking these laws are decided by the saw.

Along with the table saw, we have several other tools that also require the use of safety laws. 
Each tool will provide a different level of consequences if these laws are broken.

You see, the world is full of tools, and you have to teach the students to respect the laws of whatever tool they are using or there could be consequences.

By teaching them real life situations, we are doing our job teaching for the future.


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

I have had momentary lapses. Something falling over, a bird flying into the shop, an insect bite and my favorite doing lots of repetitive cuts. That somehow causes my rhythm to invite disaster. I still have not come close to getting my hand in the blade but when I ran the numbers a SawStop was my solution. I also carry life insurance but have no intention of passing away anytime soon. I just feel better having it.


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## bobnann (Apr 19, 2019)

While thankfully I haven't had any blade contact injuries with a table saw I have had couple kick back events that left a nice bruise. In hindsight I realized I was just trying something stupid with powerful tool that often punishes stupid thinking. I too have removed the blade guard because I find it cumbersome and distracting. And I use push sticks for any cut that might get my hands too close.
But let me advocate for much safer way to make some riskier cuts. It's called a hand saw! Yes that good old fashioned cross cut or rip cut or back saw hanging in your shop. I've come around to believing that if I have any notion that using the table saw might be questionable I reach for a hand saw. I don't recall any discussion on this site about anyone removing their fingers with a hand saw! And I find a certain satisfaction using hand tools that I've come to appreciate as I grow older.
My main interest in keeping my digits attached is because I play fiddle and mandolin, mostly bluegrass music. I need my fingers for more than just woodworking.
Over and out.


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## GR8HUNTER (Jun 13, 2016)

> ok im gonna go out on a limb and piss some one off im sure but the first thing i get rid of on a table is the guard.it s in the way most of the time and just creates more dangerous situations imho.the first thing for safety is a splitter,and then the use of push sticks.if your fingers never get near the blade they will never get cut off.it s pretty simple and common sense,and thats the deciding factor.im 61 and have been using ts for about 55 of those and still have all 10 of mine.beieve what you want,because everyone is an expert.
> 
> - pottz





> Safety is in the "software" not the "hardware". (I don't use either the guard or a splitter. Never have.)
> 
> If you don't know what you're doing ……. Learn before you use the tool.
> If you're not vigilant about paying attention on every cut …. Bad things will happen.
> ...


*I AGREE 1000%*

i feel that him using the guard from time to time gave him a false sense of security so when he removed it was like in his head he is still safe :<)))


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## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

> While thankfully I haven t had any blade contact injuries with a table saw I have had couple kick back events that left a nice bruise. In hindsight I realized I was just trying something stupid with powerful tool that often punishes stupid thinking. I too have removed the blade guard because I find it cumbersome and distracting. And I use push sticks for any cut that might get my hands too close.
> But let me advocate for much safer way to make some riskier cuts. It s called a hand saw! Yes that good old fashioned cross cut or rip cut or back saw hanging in your shop. I ve come around to believing that if I have any notion that using the table saw might be questionable I reach for a hand saw. I don t recall any discussion on this site about anyone removing their fingers with a hand saw! And I find a certain satisfaction using hand tools that I ve come to appreciate as I grow older.
> My main interest in keeping my digits attached is because I play fiddle and mandolin, mostly bluegrass music. I need my fingers for more than just woodworking.
> Over and out.
> ...


Denise cut off 2 fingers and we're stitched bark on. They look funny but he still plays. I think he dp said he lost a little feeling in the tips…


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

I never used the guard on my Kobalt saw once. My sawstop I use it about 40% of the time because of the dust collection. Generally prefer to see the cut for some reason.


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## EdWeber (Jun 17, 2021)

Blade guards are not safety devices if you can't use the saw safely with them installed. 
Most guards on tools (not all but most) are simply insurance company CYA devices.
The little shield around the chuck on a drill press, the birdcage looking grille on a lathe the majority of TS blade guards and so many more worthless devices I have intentionally removed are all safely tucked away in a box so they don't get damaged during use. Many things considered safety devices are so ill conceived that they make the operation of the tool more dangerous that if it weren't there in the first place.

Years ago when I got a new saw before riving knives were a feature here in the states. I didn't like the fact that the guard/splitter was either solid mounted or off. I thought about having to bolt he thing on and off every time I wanted to use it and didn't think it would happen. I bought a Merlin splitter (I don't think they make them any more) which is a splitter with pawls that has a quick connect mounting. I can install and remove the assembly in a matter of seconds. While it's not the "perfect" solution it takes the hassle out of the process. As a result, I use on most all through cuts.


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## WoodenDreams (Aug 23, 2018)

I will admit, my guard is off about 80% of the time. I use a sled quite often. The rear of the sled is painted red as a reminder. Some of the cuts, it's easier to see where my cut markings are without the guard, if I'm not using the measuring tape on the rail. I use the Gripper on any cut if possible. And always place a push stick on the top of the fence or out for a easy grab if needed.

As most have stated, safety starts with your noodle. Common sense isn't always there. And mishaps do happen


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## HowardAppel (Feb 3, 2010)

I have a simple answer for those who say that their blade guards are too bulky, cumbersome, etc. -get a better one. The cost of a good blade guard is nothing compared to the cost of losing a digit. And for those who claim that they don't need a blade guard because they are sooooo experienced and sooooo careful-the insurance companies, ER doctors and hand specialists can quote you chapter and verse on folks who were so experienced and careful who lost digits or more.

Yes, we all do stupid things, I know I do-but I like to believe that when I do something stupid I admit that I was stupid, lazy, whatever, and I try to learn from it so I don't continue doing it.

As to the Sawstop, I have heard and read complaints from people that it is not a good saw-that is utter crap. You might not like the price or that you have to replace the blade if it triggers, but it is on a par, or better, as a cabinet saw with Powermatic, Laguna, Harvey and Grizzly. Until you start talking European sliders, eg. Felder, Martin or Altendorf, you are not going to find a better cabinet saw.


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

> ok im gonna go out on a limb and piss some one off im sure but the first thing i get rid of on a table is the guard.it s in the way most of the time and just creates more dangerous situations imho.the first thing for safety is a splitter,and then the use of push sticks.if your fingers never get near the blade they will never get cut off.it s pretty simple and common sense,and thats the deciding factor.im 61 and have been using ts for about 55 of those and still have all 10 of mine.beieve what you want,because everyone is an expert.
> 
> - pottz


Yup!!

If you're that worried about it, get a SawStop.

All those accidents were by people who had no idea what they're doing.

I worked construction with a guy who removed the blade guard on his worm drive. Then one day he cut 3" into his thigh.

Came back to work the next week, used the same saw.

My point: safety is a personal decision based somewhat on experience and those close calls we get granted to us.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> I have a simple answer for those who say that their blade guards are too bulky, cumbersome, etc. -get a better one. The cost of a good blade guard is nothing compared to the cost of losing a digit. And for those who claim that they don t need a blade guard because they are sooooo experienced and sooooo careful-the insurance companies, ER doctors and hand specialists can quote you chapter and verse on folks who were so experienced and careful who lost digits or more.
> 
> Yes, we all do stupid things, I know I do-but I like to believe that when I do something stupid I admit that I was stupid, lazy, whatever, and I try to learn from it so I don t continue doing it.
> 
> ...


a blade guard doesn't need to be high quality,if it's in the way it's in the way period.spending more money doesn't resolve the issue.what some are saying is the guard gets in the way or prevents doing some cuts.


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## EdWeber (Jun 17, 2021)

> As to the Sawstop, I have heard and read complaints from people that it is not a good saw-that is utter crap. You might not like the price or that you have to replace the blade if it triggers, but it is on a par, or better, as a cabinet saw with Powermatic, Laguna, Harvey and Grizzly. Until you start talking European sliders, eg. Felder, Martin or Altendorf, you are not going to find a better cabinet saw.
> 
> - HowardAppel


I can't comment on the SS, I don't own one.
The main issue is that SS sues anyone who writes down a safety idea on the back of a napkin, they have litigated themselves into being the only U.S. saw with an active safety system, whether it's good, bad or somewhere in between doesn't even come into the conversation.
It's been said that they have surrounded themselves with a web of patents, so no matter what angle you come at them, they can claim you're infringing on their idea. Look at the Bosch Reaxx, oh that's right, they can't sell them.
IMO, SS's hotdog sensing technology is good but far from the best and should not be allowed to monopolize the market.


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## HowardAppel (Feb 3, 2010)

SS spent a lot of money developing its system, it offered to license it to all of the major manufacturers who said no, so he built his own line of saws, and now he is protecting his intellectual property. I believe it was Bosch that tried to copy his system and their use was absolutely the result of using his technology and patent and that is why Bosch stopped.

You want an example of a competing system-go look at Felder's Format line-their system is completely different and the cheapest model that has it sells for about $55,000.

I suspect that if any of us invented a game changing technology and spent a ********************-ton of money doing so, we would want to get our money back and make a profit, just as the SS inventor did.

And I don't see too many people here spending tens of thousands of dollars on exotic hardwood, then spending thousands of hours crafting it into a project that is worth $100K and then donating it all to charity.


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

I've got a growing pile of blade guards gathering dust on a shelf in my garage… can't even give them away.

Cheers,
Brad

PS: Howard, you need to go back and do a bit of research regarding the Bosch saw.


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## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

I have had several table saws and my SawStop PCS is the best I have had in terms of fit and finish. Instructions are excellent and support very good. it is a solid machine.

I think it is funny that people are upset about the way they defended their patents. Any major company out there does the same. I have been involved in a number of disputes and depositions with patent squabbles and companies protect their intellectual property. I would do the same. Companies are out there to make money.

I bought the SawStop because it was a solid machine with the extra safety. But, if you can be safe without that….great for you. I just know that a human can not be alert 100% of the time. Companies that decide to not use the technology are taking a risk.and they should understand the potential downside.


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

They came up with it or bought it and hold the patients. Of course they will defend them. The same thing would happen if any companies fence design was copied. It is just they way it is and will stay. If I remember this correctly the technology to stop the blade was around for a while but a company or insurer bailed at the last minute out of fear of what would happen "if" it failed to work. They felt the risk was too great. I think that was before Saw Stop so maybe they bought the rights and did further development to bring to market. Another possible scenario is they stole the idea and had the money to prevail over the original inventor. I just remember seeing this on one of those afternoon shows my mother would watch like the Mike Douglas Show or similar. Years ago and the detail escape me other than the idea getting crushed out of fear of failure.


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## EdWeber (Jun 17, 2021)

To be clear SS offered it's technology, saw companies declined. He then tried to mandate it so that the saw companies that turned him down would have to adopt it, that failed, He then made his own saw and proclaimed that all saws without SS technologies were inherently dangerous. Then he protected his patent/s to the exclusion of all other technologies. It really hasn't been about safety for quite some time. If it were, all technologies would be welcome to compete. Don't forget, The owner of SS is a patent lawyer, surprise.
Whirlwind, Reaxx and others can't compete, not because they're not good tech or would add safety to the saw's they're on but because of legal reasons. 
That's the way I understand it but I know there's much more to the story.


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## Knockonit (Nov 5, 2017)

> I ve got a growing pile of blade guards gathering dust on a shelf in my garage… can t even give them away.
> 
> Cheers,
> Brad
> ...


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## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

> ok im gonna go out on a limb and piss some one off im sure but the first thing i get rid of on a table is the guard.it s in the way most of the time and just creates more dangerous situations imho.the first thing for safety is a splitter,and then the use of push sticks.if your fingers never get near the blade they will never get cut off.it s pretty simple and common sense,and thats the deciding factor.im 61 and have been using ts for about 55 of those and still have all 10 of mine.beieve what you want,because everyone is an expert.
> 
> - pottz
> Yup!!
> ...


More to it than that.Even professionals get hurt. It's not unusual for framers to wedge back the safety on a worm drive.


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## HowardAppel (Feb 3, 2010)

> I ve got a growing pile of blade guards gathering dust on a shelf in my garage… can t even give them away.
> 
> Cheers,
> Brad
> ...


If their technology didn't infringe on the SS patents, then why did Bosch give up-they have plenty of money and could have litigated this, literally, to the Supreme Court. FYI, I am a retired corporate attorney.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> I ve got a growing pile of blade guards gathering dust on a shelf in my garage… can t even give them away.
> 
> Cheers,
> Brad
> ...


correct they sued bosch and forced them to stop selling the saw.


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## sansoo22 (May 7, 2019)

> correct they sued bosch and forced them to stop selling the saw.
> 
> - pottz


My understanding is the patent is written too broadly so pretty much any technology that has "detection and reaction" systems or "injury mitigation" systems are now liable for a law suit.

If anyone is interested here are the two main patents that Bosch got in trouble for infringing on:
US7895927 and US8011279

I have authored a couple patents in the tech industry and these do seem WAAAY more open and free then what we can get away with. After the the whole Apple/Samsung law suits tech patents are getting a lot more scrutiny. Took almost 6 yrs for the last one I co-authored to make it thru lawyers and be framed narrow enough to get approval on it.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

I'm with this kid (snort). I have a shelf above the table saw, about four feet long, filled with push shoes for thin stock, narrow stock, thin narrow stock, and wide stock. There is never a good reason for my hand to be within a foot of the blade.

I do have an over-arm guard, but use it only with flat stock. I even have special push shoes for it. They ride both sides of the fence and allow me to use them when I have only a quarter inch of room between the fence and guard.

The above leaves the problem of about four inches of guard that prohibit use of a shoe. Then the guard pushes back and other push shoes come into play.

With push shoes that hold down about 12" of material, rather than just a fraction of an inch (push stick), a splitter and standing to one side or the other, the odds of other than the problem of having the hell scared out of you happening move greatly into your favor.



> ok im gonna go out on a limb and piss some one off im sure but the first thing i get rid of on a table is the guard.it s in the way most of the time and just creates more dangerous situations imho.the first thing for safety is a splitter,and then the use of push sticks.if your fingers never get near the blade they will never get cut off.it s pretty simple and common sense,and thats the deciding factor.im 61 and have been using ts for about 55 of those and still have all 10 of mine.beieve what you want,because everyone is an expert.
> 
> - pottz


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Howard, merely that Bosch backed off does not mean they could not have won. Since you indicate you were in the business of law, you should know businesses settle suits every day, even when they know they were likely to prevail at the conclusion of the trial.

As your post suggests, part of the battle would be against the stupidity of the Patent Office, for accepting an overly vague, general patent. However, as a review of case law reveals, many an agency's rulings were tossed.

The problem here could be that it was not cost effective to continue down the road. How many people are going to dump their old saws and replace them with Bosch technology for a saw that cannot compete with a cabinet saw?


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## HowardAppel (Feb 3, 2010)

> correct they sued bosch and forced them to stop selling the saw.
> 
> - pottz
> 
> ...


As you noted, patents have to be drawn so that they cover what you created-SS did not get a patent that covers all possible electronic and/or mechanical devices to keep your digits intact-that would be way too broad and the fact that Felder has a patent for their technology proves that. And if Bosch, and their patent lawyers, felt that the SS was too broad, they could have litigated it. The fact that they caved almost immediately tells me they likely infringed, they realized it, and they cut their losses.

This is why patent lawyers get the big bucks.


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## EdWeber (Jun 17, 2021)

The Bosch saw was out many years ago, way before the SS made a jobsite saw. They were trying to bring the added safety (without blade damage) to the jobsite. The Bocsh had a two cartridge system, so you had two mishaps before you had to replace anything. You just reset the system and you were back in business with very little downtime. 
Then the lawsuit to stop them and then later SS made there own Jobsite saw.
They were, at the time, using different tech in a different segment of the market. One would think no direct competition but they got sued anyway.
I often wonder what type of safety systems we might have if these suits never happened. Especially the one that started it all, Osorio v. One World Technologies.


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## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

Best. Push. Shoe. Ever.

It straddles the blade for narrow rips. Rip down to 1/8" w/o kickback risk. Magnet holds to saw table. Small Co., US made, reasonably priced, good people.


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## HowardAppel (Feb 3, 2010)

> Howard, merely that Bosch backed off does not mean they could not have won. Since you indicate you were in the business of law, you should know businesses settle suits every day, even when they know they were likely to prevail at the conclusion of the trial.
> 
> As your post suggests, part of the battle would be against the stupidity of the Patent Office, for accepting an overly vague, general patent. However, as a review of case law reveals, many an agency s rulings were tossed.
> 
> ...


Bosch caved, and I am not aware of any settlement where they got anything for caving. This was not on the edge of trial-they caved early and went home with their tails between their legs.

And multinationals don't cave easily-I represented lots of them when I was doing BigFirm Law-they fight.

And how do you know that it was a vague overly broad patent-are you a patent lawyer, and if it was such a overly broad and crappy patent all the more reason for Bosch to challenge it. And if it was so overly broad, etc. it would have been more reason for SS to grant a license to Bosch as part of a settlement in order to avoid the risk of having the patent tossed at trial-I don't see Bosch using the technology so I guess no license.

I am not a doctor, a nuclear scientist, a race car driver-there are lots of things I have opinions but know nothing about, so I don't pretend to know about them. I am a lawyer, but I don't practice tax law, or trusts and estates-I studied them but if an area I am not familiar with comes up, I ask a lawyer who specializes in that area. I am not a patent lawyer, but I had clients who had lots of patents and I dealt with the patent attorneys on a regular basis so I have some familiarity with it. Bosch caved.


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## EricFai (Sep 30, 2018)

I guess I am one of those guys that don't like the safety devises on the power tools. I do have the respect for what the tools do and the purpose of the design. I also use common sense while in the shop making cuts with any blade. Have I received minor injuries over the years, yes. More from a utility knife, hammer, splinters ect

Think safe and work safe along with using what the Good Lord has placed between the ears.


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

The cease and desist 'ruling' was by the USITC, which is not part of the US judicial system, and was based on import trade law regarding intellectual property. An exhaustive patent case it was not.

Cheers,
Brad


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## CWWoodworking (Nov 28, 2017)

People just need to get over the patent thing. It's just the way things are and there are thousands of patents that "broad".

Here are two examples of patents from the furniture world. One a success, one a total screw up.

Lazy boy threw a blanket patent on the recliner head tilt. Nobody could get around it. Doesn't matter what type of mechanism you used, if the head tilted, it was covered. Companies tried, but ended up just paying royalties to LB. LB was smart enough to sell it, because it was a huge craze.

A company from NY called Telescope invented something called the "sling chair". It's the mesh fabric chairs seen everywhere for outdoors. Anyway, they botched the patent and within 5 years, 90% of outdoor chairs sold were sling chairs. Imagine the money missed out cause they effed up.

The point is this is one small snipet of industry. Look around think about how many patents exist. It's just the way the world is.


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## CWWoodworking (Nov 28, 2017)

I can tell you one thing, I wouldn't even think about having a shop class in high school without a sawstop.

Most shop students are 15-18yr old boys. I have a 15yr old. Their brain only works occasionally.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

luckily we have a ss in our companies arch making dept. it's been tripped 5 times and saved 5 fingers or more.the one time it was a newbie,he tripped it 3 hours after the start of his first day.that was the fault of insufficient training.he was lucky.the ss did it's job very well.


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## northwoodsman (Feb 22, 2008)

I have a SS and I think it's a fantastic saw. It's the 4th new TS that I have owned and I purchased it for safety and the quality is just a bonus. I had a moderately severe stroke last year and although I'm in my mid-50's, and have a highly-demanding job, I'll admit that I can no longer chew gum and walk at the same time. I'm on several blood thinners and cannot risk a cut because I would bleed out fairly quickly. I always have a blood clotting trauma kit within 15 feet of me in my shop. Ironically my stroke was the result of a TS kickback, 100% my fault. I got impaled in my stomach with a piece of wood, was thrown back into a refrigerator behind me, and tore the vertebral artery right out of my brain in the process. My SS wouldn't have prevented the kickback. I'd give up a few fingers to have my brain back. Be careful!


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Howard, read my post again, but more carefully this time.

Nowhere did I say Bosch settled. What should have been obvious to someone in the business is, companies settle or otherwise back off every day, even when they were likely to win.

As to vague laws, I was merely repeating. That aside, my few decades of experience taught me not only the above, but that agencies screw up on a regular basis and have their decisions overturned regularly, even though law presumes them to be in the right.

Consider the laser, coming from the other direction. The man who invented it told me he only made about twenty-five K off it. All it took was B&H making a few mods and they were off and running with their own versions.

Lets take a biggie, like gun free zones around schools, for an example. Those were, eventually, struck down as overreaching (U.S. vs LOPEZ (1995)). As the U.S. Supreme Court said, schools have nothing, whatsoever, to do with interstate commerce.


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## HowardAppel (Feb 3, 2010)

> Howard, read my post again, but more carefully this time.
> 
> Nowhere did I say Bosch settled. What should have been obvious to someone in the business is, companies settle or otherwise back off every day, even when they were likely to win.
> 
> ...


I agree with that case-it was an overreach of the Federal government's power. But remember, any state could legislate that and it would not be barred by the Commerce Clause. But hey, why should we care if thousands of children get killed by guns every year-just because the NRA, et al, never actually read the entire 2nd Amendment or the notes from the Constitutional Convention where it was debated and adopted, no price is too high to protect the rights of men with small dicks who need big guns.

And I did read it carefully, the first time. You stated that companies settle or back off every day, even when likely to win. What is your evidence-you might of heard of that word-what is your evidence that they were likely to win? As far as I am aware, there is none. And by evidence I don't mean someone told you that they heard from a friend of their's who cleans the lawyers' offices-I mean real evidence. Did Bosch even try to defend their position, did they actually spend money and hire expert witnesses or did they just believe that their system was different enough and when challenged, caved?

I saw the blood on my Powermatic 66 when someone lost his thumb on it. That was enough to persuade me to buy the SS once I saw how it worked.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

Worst I have ever been injured was with a brand new Hirsch #7 35mm gouge I bought to make a spoon. I decided to try it out out of the package and was surprised how sharp it was. Well, the spoon wasn't in my vise tight enough and popped out, i lost my balance and went to put my left hand on my bench to catch my balance but I kind of missed the safe and my wrist buckled next thing I know my body weight is bringing my right hand holding the gouge straight towards my left wrist. It sliced into my wrist pretty deep but luckily it was at an angle. If it was just an inch over it would have went straight into my wrist and all of the veins/arteries.

I will say that Hirsch makes a fine gouge, and razor sharp out of the package.


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## bigblockyeti (Sep 9, 2013)

Wouldn't it be great if these kinds of threads didn't devolve when emotions start trumping logic and those who claim specific experience, ironically without evidence, start name calling others without even knowing them?


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## EdWeber (Jun 17, 2021)

It is what it is.
It seems we're simply stuck with VHS and we'll never know what Beta alternatives there were due to the monopoly.
Be Safe


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> Wouldn t it be great if these kinds of threads didn t devolve when emotions start trumping logic and those who claim specific experience, ironically without evidence, start name calling others without even knowing them?
> 
> - bigblockyeti


not gonna happan in the twighlight zone,errrr, i mean lumber jocks !


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## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

> Wouldn t it be great if these kinds of threads didn t devolve when emotions start trumping logic and those who claim specific experience, ironically without evidence, start name calling others without even knowing them?
> 
> - bigblockyeti


It's an old argument that just won't stop. I got kicked off Woodnet for this argument in 10 years ago for it.

People just like to bicker…

Someone getting hurt on a tablesaw has nothing to do with Sawstop legal matters..


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

> Wouldn t it be great if these kinds of threads didn t devolve when emotions start trumping logic and those who claim specific experience, ironically without evidence, start name calling others without even knowing them?
> 
> - bigblockyeti


Yup. This is one of those touchy subjects here, and you can always see it coming. Pretty much anything having to do with electrical systems is another one. It's a lot like that uncle who does the same old ranting and raving every Thanksgiving after a few drinks. And even after everyone else leaves the room, he probably keeps at it.


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## EricFai (Sep 30, 2018)

This has been good reading.

The biggest thing about the power tools is to work on a safe manor, not to get distracted, and keep the intoxicants out if reach until your done for the day. Everyone has their choice in the amout of safety they practice, I do hope that all do follow good practices. More so with the older tools which may be in use.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

guys i think weve beat this topic to death one more time here on this forum so im gonna let all you safety experts figure it out once and for all,i wish.peace jocks.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> guys i think weve beat this topic to death one more time here on this forum so im gonna let all you safety experts figure it out once and for all,i wish.peace jocks.
> 
> - pottz


You know what'll beat you to death? A table saw with no guard or splitter that's what.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> guys i think weve beat this topic to death one more time here on this forum so im gonna let all you safety experts figure it out once and for all,i wish.peace jocks.
> 
> - pottz
> 
> ...


you kill me man-lol. been their done it !


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

> guys i think weve beat this topic to death one more time here on this forum so im gonna let all you safety experts figure it out once and for all,i wish.peace jocks.
> 
> - pottz
> 
> ...


But I like to take the guard off….....

Just messing with you.


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## LeeRoyMan (Feb 23, 2019)

> But I like to take the guard off….....
> 
> - controlfreak


I don't like taking the guard off!
.
.
.
.
So I leave it off


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

I must admit that I am a blade guard off guy but the built in dust collection is making me change my way a bit…..because I never wear a dust mask.


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## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

For a lot of us , its always been off. No commercial or residential shop since 83 ever had a guard on. Now it's being offered and shops are buying a new if not replacing a worn out shop saw. It's changing I the industry. Sliders and CNC's are more common and used. If you can have a shop working 2-8 hour shifts, you probably need a CNC to produce parts.


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## JAAune (Jan 22, 2012)

Even with experience and careful work, it's still possible to make a mistake due to momentary distraction. That's why redundant safety measures are good.

Not so long ago, I used the tablesaw fence to set the length of a crosscut then forgot to move it away before cutting. Probably was running calculations in my head instead of focusing on the action of cross-cutting.

The saw has a riving knife and that kept the part in place and nothing happened. No riving knife and that would have probably been a kickback.

Part of the issue is that it's a sort-of slider with a Biesemeyer fence. We want to replace it with a real Euro type slider (with a half fence) but other tools keep eating up the tool budget. That would add another redundant safety and further reduce the chance of mistakes causing accidents.


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## Metfax (Jun 26, 2021)

> I have had momentary lapses. Something falling over, a bird flying into the shop, an insect bite and my favorite doing lots of repetitive cuts. That somehow causes my rhythm to invite disaster. I still have not come close to getting my hand in the blade but when I ran the numbers a SawStop was my solution. I also carry life insurance but have no intention of passing away anytime soon. I just feel better having it.
> 
> - controlfreak


I second the saw stop. When I recently upgraded that safety feature cost about a grand more. Never met anyone with short fingers that wouldn't pay a grand to have them back.


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

Aside from the finger vs no fingers, my deductible alone is $3000 . When I say "ran the numbers" I thought about that and that I had an employee that lost three fingers woodworking at home. He was over $80,000 in medical bills and still out of work three months later. Just so this isn't a totally "yea Saw Stop" thread it was what I felt was good for me or that little extra. Any table saw with a skilled attentive operator that is laser focused on work, technique and safety is therefore a safe saw. Be careful out there folks. I do get the feeling here at LJ's that this crowd is far above the average on safety.


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## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

> Aside from the finger vs no fingers, my deductible alone is $3000 . When I say "ran the numbers" I thought about that and that I had an employee that lost three fingers woodworking at home. He was over $80,000 in medical bills and still out of work three months later. Just so this isn t a totally "yea Saw Stop" thread it was what I felt was good for me or that little extra. Any table saw with a skilled attentive operator that is laser focused on work, technique and safety is therefore a safe saw. Be careful out there folks. I do get the feeling here at LJ s that this crowd is far above the average on safety.
> 
> - controlfreak


When I got hurt it was 20k in 1985. No reattachment and just sewn up. The dado blades shattered the two tips. Off 2 months and I'm not sure why but considered a 85% lose of hand technically.


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