# Budget home shop: Ridgid R4512 vs Dewalt DWE7491RS



## Spikes (Apr 11, 2018)

Dear all,

I'm a newbie woodworker and I finally have enough spare cash to get some tools of my own, however money is limited. I'm far from doing any fine woodworking, my aspiration for now is to be able to make some simple furniture (shelves, a table, some small cabinets on casters).

Given that I have just ~$1.5K to get some basic tools (TS, planer, drill/driver, sander, a router if I can fit it in) I don't think I can spend more than ~$500 on the TS.

I've spent the last week reading everything I could find on TSs and here's what I came away with:

cabinet saws are out of my budget and more than I need
hybrid saws are still out of my budget, altho some used ones may do, but there's nothing on craiglist near by nor could I find an auction site online that would serve the west coast and have tools for sale (suggestions are welcome)
I found countless rants that any manufacturer besides delta/powermatic are basically copying designs and having inherent design flaws leading to blade misalignment due to how the trunnion is mounted

In any case, given the price range, even used, I could not find an unisaw for example that I could afford leaving the two saws in topic as the winners withing budget. About those two:


every single power tools review site recommended the DWE7491RS as the best all around saw (sold for $579 at HD)
the dewalt is a contractor saw, which seems to be louder, worse at dust collection and with a shorter motor life time than a hybrid saw
if I bought the dewalt it'd still be stationary in the shop, I'd take it off the rolling stand and mount it on a cabinet embedded in an outfeed table.
lots of people are buying the Ridgid R4512 , which is often touted as a hybrid saw but many say that's not the case given the open design. There are as many people saying it's awesome as there are saying it's bad. The badness seems to do with aligning the blade, but it also seems this was more of a problem a couple years back and newer versions fixed/reduced the problem
the ridgid seems to have a very large community, which is very appealing, lots of mods for it and large number of videos on youtube

My biggest concern and question is the following:

The ridgid has a cast iron table and seems in general more robust as a build than the dewalt, however spec wise it has a 13amp motor and gives 3.8K RPMs while the dewalt has a 15amp and reaches 4.8K rpms. I could not figure out how much that difference is going to have an impact when cutting hardwood or even thicker stuff like 2×4s, which is primarily what I'm going to be working with along with 3/4 plywood.

I understand the right blade is also going to have a big impact. What do you guys think? are there any other factors I should consider? thanks,

Spike


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## Spikes (Apr 11, 2018)

Also, I guess I should add that I looked at the Delta 36-725, I know there's a big thread here on lumberjocks (http://lumberjocks.com/reviews/3822) and almost every other thread on the ridgid links to that. However, as usual, read enough reviews and it's not so clearcut anymore… the steel fence that is supposedly an advantage seems to "wobble" in quite a few videos and requiring a fair amount of tuneup. Also the dust collection seems to be a problem with a smaller 2.5" hole vs 4" on the ridgid (I've been planning a 4" dust collection system). Also I have no lowes near by, only HD, which has the ridgid. Last but not least, I'm still checking, but the ridgid may qualify for lifetime warranty, which is a nice plus.


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## knotscott (Feb 27, 2009)

Since you don't need a portable saw, don't buy one. You'll give up a lot of benefits for the sake of the portability. Portables have much less space in front of the blade, which gives you less room to get the board registered to the table and the fence before it contacts the blade, making it harder to get accurate cuts from. Portables also use universal motors that have less torque and make a lot more noise. There's also a major consideration for the difference in mass and the materials of construction. Get a full size saw with a belt drive induction motor and a decent fence. The used market can sometimes reveal some excellent deals. If you include your nearest city in your profile, someone here might have some insights on a nice saw. The ABCs of Table Saws

I understand the budget constraints, but here's some food for thought. You don't have to buy all this stuff at once. 
Big chunks of money are hard for many of us to come by for hobbies, but you're likely to come by smaller sums from holiday and birthday cash, pocket change, OT, etc. The table saw is the heart and soul of most shops, and the budget should reflect that. Things like drills, clamps, and sanders are very handy, but can be purchased with that birthday cash at some point in the future. My main point here, is to encourage you not to miss the boat with bigger chunk of change if you don't think you'll see one again anytime soon.


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## Spikes (Apr 11, 2018)

Hello Scott,

thank you so much for your input and the very insightful ABC of table saws, really well written. Also love your signature .

Having gone through that tho, I agree I should then not pick up the Dewalt, but what about the ridgid? it seems to fall in the category of what you defined as Stationary Saws/Contractor Saws and therefore, if I didn't misunderstand, "sturdy enough", including a fair bit of space in front of the blade as you mentioned in your reply.

And I agree on the general sentiment that the table saw is the heart of the shop and that should be reflected on the budget, but as far as I can see the "next level" is something like Grizzly G0833P, which you also had in your ABC. That's $1050, twice as much as the ridgid… is it really twice as good? Granted the fence seems a little better, it's still not steel/cast iron and the power seems about the same, including the ability to be wired for 230v.

As to the used stuff, a couple thoughts which are not meant to defend any point, but rather express a genuine concern on my part:
- I don't live close to a major city center so no deals around here, meaning if I wanted to pick something up it'd take quite a bit of driving and gas and maybe even renting a larger truck depending what's on sale. this would push the cost up
- I'm a newbie, it's very hard for me to assess a used piece and generally feel quite uncomfortable to spend north of $1K on something I have no warranty on and no clue if it'll drop dead in a year or so. For example this one: https://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/tls/d/killer-deal-delta-unisaw-huge/6556338759.html it looks bad, but does it matter?it's a unisaw which everybody seems to love and the price is very appealing. Or this one, which he says is in very good shape, but looks very "funny" with that wood fence… https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/tls/d/10-grizzley-table-saw-220/6555108618.html

bottom line it's just the other side of "not missing the boat with a bigger chunk of change", which indeed I'm unlikely to see again for a long time. The ridgid feels safer because it's new and it's guaranteed for life. I'm aware that this feeling can be very much misguided, but that's where I'm at at the moment.

thanks again for all the input.


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## onoitsmatt (Mar 7, 2015)

I think either of the saws you linked would be great if your shop is wired for 220v. If you're new to tools, rehabbing an old machine is a great way to learn about your tools, how they work and how to maintain them. Many will tell you "buy your last tool first". Either of those two would serve you forever. Another bonus on buying used is if you want or need to sell down the road, you'll likely get your money back.

Realizing the time commitment for something like this, you have to ask yourself if you have more time or money. In other words, is it better for you to get a lesser quality saw and save a lot of time and hassle or bite the bullet time wise and try to get a used saw you can keep forever.


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## Magnum (Feb 5, 2010)

Being "Portable" or not had nothing to do with my Decision to buy a Ridgid R4516. The room I had for it and how much I would use it did. I've used it a LOT More than I thought I would.

The one below can be removed from the sound deadening Stand in ten minutes . I never have.

It's still the original 10" Blade and it cuts very accurately and cleanly. The Motor is Fully Encased and the sawdust ALL gets sucked out the back end Shop Vac Chute. I bought this Saw for *$369 on JANUARY 30TH. 2010 *at Home Depot. I'm still very happy with it!

NOTE: I'm a Hobby Woodworker, not a Production Worker, but I've "Halved" more than a few 4'x8' Sheets of Plywood through it with NO Problems.



















Good Luck on your Hunt!

Regards: Rick

PS: If you want to get a better look at those Specs …..Push & Hold the "Ctrl Key" (Lower Left Corner) while using your "Mouse Wheel" to Zoom it, In Or Out. Zowie! ...lol…


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## Be58pilot (Jan 31, 2018)

I have the Rigid 4512, and I have been very happy with it. Granted, it is the only table saw I have owned, but I have had no issues. I have also found Rigid's customer service to be excellent. My rigid jointer shipped with a damaged part. I called them on a weekend, and a replacement part was at my door in a few days.

Are there better saws? Absolutely, but unless you find a great deal on a used saw, you won't find anything with as many features for the same money. You won't get the warranty if you buy used, but a new saw depreciates quickly.


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## Spikes (Apr 11, 2018)

Matt,

thanks for your input. I like learning about tools and I have more time than money, plus I enjoy all things rehabbing.

However from analogue experience in other fields rehabbing can get quite expensive if you don't know what you're doing and: 1) machine is in worse shape than you could tell at time of purchase 2) parts aren't available or very expensive 3) special tools are required for rehabbing.

So take the Unisaw for example… I may be paying $400, but that fence looks really in bad shape for once, how do I know it will serve me forever? if I need to buy a new one, that seems like it's gonna cost me a hundred+, and I need to find a used fence (a new delta t3 costs as much as the whole used TS).

But maybe it'll be fine and fixing it easy, that's the thing, I'm new and I can't tell if what I'm buying used is any good and have a sense for what rehabbing it will cost and how it'll be.

Does that make sense?


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## Spikes (Apr 11, 2018)

Also maybe I'm a wuss used to less dangerous tinkering, but none of those "good ole machines" seem to have any blade guard or riving knife. I found a manual for a powermatic 66, which is also now on CL at a good price, and the manual talks about a splitter and shows pics of the blade guard too, but neither is being sold with those machines on CL and I don't see where to buy them separately. Is that something reasonable to be concerned about that I'd have to fix as part of rehabbing?


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## Magnum (Feb 5, 2010)

I wouldn't buy a Rehab without trying it out and there will probably be problems with it. Probably why it's for sale.

I brought my Rigid 4516 Home still in the box. Put it together and 18 Years later. NO Problems!

Sorry but comparing a Rehab with a New Saw doesn't make sense to me As Be58pilot says above* "unless you find a great deal on a used saw,(in TOP Shape) you won't find anything with as many features for the same money. You won't get the warranty if you buy used"*

YES! Make sure it has a Riving Knife! That's what Prevents Kickback! ..... Well. The Pawls do also but I only use the Riving knife and Four different types of Push Sticks. I always try and keep the front edge of the wood I'm cutting, TIGHT to the Rip Fence. It's been over 40 Years and NO Kickbacks YET!

I also just noticed that you've only been on here for 10 Hours and done 4 Posts. Welcome to Lumberjocks.

I'll have to have a look at those other Posts! (it's fine. They are all about this Post.)

Rick


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## Pawpawsworkshop (Apr 11, 2018)

Get the best table saw you can. Cast iron top is ideal. This will be the cornerstone of you shop. I have an old power attic that does just fine. It's from the 70's. Not all the bells and whistles that the new one have but then all you need is a sturdy and accurate cutting saw. I have added many jigs that I use for various applications. Check out the YouTube channel Paw Paw's Workshop. Hope this helps


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

> Also maybe I'm a wuss used to less dangerous tinkering, but none of those "good ole machines" seem to have any blade guard or riving knife.


All of them left the factory with a splitter and guard. They may or may not be present on any used machine you run across, but are available along with numerous after-market alternatives.

Cheers,
Brad


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## runswithscissors (Nov 8, 2012)

Both the Unisaw and Grizzly are cabinet saws, which are much to be preferred over contractor saws. As for riving knife or splitter, there are ways to deal with that-some more expensive than others. As for the wood on the Grizzly fence, that's just a face piece the owner has put on, for whatever reason. A non-issue. The fence on the Unisaw looks scuzzy, but is probably a better fence than the original. I suspect that saw can be had for less than asking price, simply on the basis of appearance.


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## onoitsmatt (Mar 7, 2015)

Your points are all valid ones. I agree with you that you could wind up buying someone else's problem. But not all tools for sale are being sold because they don't work. I'd argue most are sold due to upgrading or selling for a deceased relative, downsizing a shop or due to a move and don't want to move a lot of tools on top of everything else. It's a crap shoot for sure but I've bought and sold a lot of tools on Craigslist and only had one garbage tool experience which I got a good enough deal on to sell for parts at a profit.


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## knotscott (Feb 27, 2009)

Yes, the R4512 is definitely a full size stationary saw with a belt drive induction motor, and is likely a decent choice in a new saw in the < $600 price range. The Delta 36-725 is also a likely candidate. Both have are modern contractor saws with hybrid style internally mounted motors and true riving knives. Both have the cheaper steel wings and reasonable fences. Both also have warranty and return privileges. Track records are not stellar for either, but if they're working well once setup, you're probably good to go for a long time.

I doubt the G0833 is twice the saw as the R4512 or Delta, but it does offer solid cast wings, better fence, full enclosure, a bit more power, and more mass. Once setup properly you won't be able to tell which piece of wood was cut by which saw, but you may notice a difference in how they feel to you when you use them.

As mentioned, the true 3hp saws will require 220v operation. So if you don't have 220v or don't plan to get it, those are out of the running. Being a newbie, I'd want a saw that was a bit more turn key. A little clean up is fine, but a saw that looks like its been run very hard for a very long time could mean some rehab.

In the end, get something you're comfortable with, that you feel good about, that you think will do the job.

There's a decent looking Ridgid TS3650 on CL. Solid cast wings, Herculift, decent fence….it doesn't show the blade guard/splitter assembly, but they are available used, and he may have it….if not, that'd be a negotiating point that I'd want $50 knocked off for. https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/tls/d/rigid-10-inch-table-saw/6551785803.html

Here's another older Ridgid (like a TS2412 or 2424), but with a Biesemeyer fence. Also no blade guard shown.
https://sacramento.craigslist.org/tls/d/10-table-saw-with-besmyer/6555307848.html

If you do have 220v, this PM66 would be worth the $900 asking price IMO….the last saw you'd ever need:
https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/tls/d/powermatic-3hp-table-saw/6558236436.html

Here's a decent old Craftsman 113 with an upgraded fence…from the same factory as the older Ridgid's:
https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/tls/d/craftsman-10-belt-drive-table/6554721838.html

This one is well worth the $100 asking price….the fence and motor are each worth that. Has some rust, but could be worth a look: https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/tls/d/table-saw/6557267303.html

Here's a good looking older Delta with a Biese fence and cast iron wings (could be a 36-682). https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/tls/d/10-delta-contractor-saw/6556256675.html

Here's an old Delta beauty in great shape that's price well. You might want to add a better fence at some point down the road, but looks very well maintained. https://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/tls/d/delta-table-sawgreat-condition/6558044872.html

https://sacramento.craigslist.org/tls/d/delta-10-inch-contractor-sawhp/6555219630.html

https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/tls/d/delta-contractors-saw/6554091454.html


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## Spikes (Apr 11, 2018)

wow, this community is amazing, thank you everybody, I was not expecting so much good feedback and even less so in such a short time, what a way to start. With little local support it means a lot to have found a good place to get feedback such as this.

I think I have largely made up my mind and unless some incredible offers comes up while I finish cleaning up my space (it's an old shed with lots of junk in it) I'll go with the new ridgid from HD (I'll try to make sure the trunnion has a II marking which seems to indicate the machine is new enough and does not have the alignment problem).

For posterity and someone like me trying to figure out the same thing I'll summarize criteria and final considerations:

crontractor saws were ruled out right away, see first answer from Scott
in no way I think the R4512 is a superior saw to the others listed above, in fact some were clearly better (especially the PM)
if I had lived closer (within 1hr drive) to any of those deals on CL I would have most certainly grabbed one of those. But with 3+ hrs drive, fuel cost etc the cost and hassle increase substantially. HD is 15 mins away.
all the deals on CL would have required further work and purchase of parts (riving knife, blade guard, etc), again money and time/delays
a lot of the complaints about the ridgid seem to be from a few years back, ca 2012. Since 2016 and trunnion marked as II things seem to have been stable and I should be able to return it to HD and get it swapped if it's not working well
while I hope to be here for a while, there's actually good chances I'll be on the move again soon so a smaller saw and a smaller investment is preferable if I have to let it go.
ultimately I'm a newbie and the ridgid seems to be more than adequate to start with and grow from there. If in a few years I'm still doing this and more stable location wise I'll look to upgrade to a better cabinet saw

thanks again to everybody for the input.

Spike


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## KEVMO11 (Mar 20, 2018)

Just throwing in my two cents…

You absolutely want a cast iron top!

A few years back I bought the Ridgid Portable Table Saw on black Friday for 200. It was okay for what it was. When it was time to upgrade about a year later…it was like night and day. I found a good deal on CL on a Craftsman Table Saw (very comparable to the Ridgid you are looking at) and could'nt imagine going back to the small portable Ridgid I had. 
(one last thing about buying used, a lot of the time you can get extras thrown into the price. I got a box full of extra blades, push sticks, taper jig and even a dado stack thrown in at no extra cost; all things you are going to want)


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## Spikes (Apr 11, 2018)

Kev,

unless I missed something that ridgid has a cast iron top, so I should be good (even found a video about it passing the nickle test).


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## ohtimberwolf (Dec 17, 2011)

I noticed the unisaw is gone. Just a hint, if you are really interested in a particular saw don't put the link in your post or there is a very good chance it will be gone before you get any answers. We are all glad to help but some can't pass up a good buy no matter what. Many could attest to what I am telling you. Good luck on your venture. larry


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## Spikes (Apr 11, 2018)

I'm glad if someone benefited from it , but I get the point, thank you for the heads up. Is there a better way to get an opinion on used gear? do people PM "trusted others" with it? like I said for a newbie like me assessment of used gear is kind of tricky so it's useful to get a second and third opinion but someone who knows the trade.


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## KEVMO11 (Mar 20, 2018)

> Kev,
> 
> unless I missed something that ridgid has a cast iron top, so I should be good (even found a video about it passing the nickle test).
> 
> - Spikes


Yeah man…I think that Ridgid will serve you well. (I was just making a generic statement that you wanted a cast iron top. ha) I've heard good things about it. I see them fairly often on Craigslist and Facebook Marketplace out in the ATL area around between the $300-400 price range. Maybe one will pop up by you


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

> I'm glad if someone benefited from it , but I get the point, thank you for the heads up. Is there a better way to get an opinion on used gear? do people PM "trusted others" with it? like I said for a newbie like me assessment of used gear is kind of tricky so it s useful to get a second and third opinion but someone who knows the trade.
> - Spikes


You should be familiar with OWWM Rule #5


Do your research and know what you want… then watch your local sales for a while to get an idea of where the prices are. Remember, 99% of what you see out there will be just marginally fair to way overpriced - the good deals rarely last more than a day (usually just a few hours) and you will miss a bunch that come and go quick. Have cash in hand, and when a great deal shows up, your first question should be to the seller - "When and Where".

For the budget you have, you can pretty much completely outfit your shop with some high end machines that will last you a lifetime or two for a fraction of the cost of new.

Cheers,
Brad


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