# Quality plywood



## Andrew714 (Nov 28, 2014)

Hello,

I am familiar with baltic birch and try to use it whenever I can, for obvious reasons. However, I'm planning out a cabinet system to serve as a replacement base for my table saw, and so far, this will exceed $600 if I use baltic birch, so I'm hoping there's a "next best" option out there that costs a bit less, but still doesn't sacrifice too much on quality and appearance.

Here's a few things I would be looking for:

- Fewer veneer layers is OK (still, the more the better)
- Thick face veneers is a must
- Smooth grain textures (aka- closer to cabinet grade than construction grade)
- Stable - I'm concerned with getting a flat sheet home, only to have it warp on me.

Thanks in advance for the help,

Andrew


----------



## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

I have used Arauco plywood and like it.


----------



## them700project (Aug 12, 2015)

You could look to finding places to reduce thickness or size.
-eliminate back, bottom, and top of carcass by using stretchers.
-Are you using big box Baltic or supply house baltic? (5×5 or 4×8?) 4×8 gets you more for your money but lower quality
-MDF top?
- No base carcasses for now. Use 2x lumber and later add cabinets underneath. or just make osb/2x shelves


----------



## rad457 (Jun 15, 2013)

Watch at the big box stores, I picked up some Birch Plywood (4'x8') from Rona (Canadian H.D./Lowes) a few years back for $29.00 a sheet, hindsight should of taken it all Quality much better than expected. At the time regular price was $49.00 and now $79.00.


----------



## LeeRoyMan (Feb 23, 2019)

> -Are you using big box Baltic or supply house baltic? (5×5 or 4×8?) *4×8 gets you more for your money but lower quality
> *
> 
> - them700project


Just curious on why the quality would be lower?
I've never noticed a difference.


----------



## Andrew714 (Nov 28, 2014)

> -Are you using big box Baltic or supply house baltic? (5×5 or 4×8?) 4×8 gets you more for your money but lower quality
> 
> - them700project


I have primarily used 4×8 sheets from Menards. To be honest, I almost feel like it's better quality than the 5×5 sheets I've used. I think the stability is the same, but maybe a little less tear-out on the face veneers. The 4×8 sheets from Menards is about $70 for a 4×8 sheet, but they don't stock it in the store (at least the one near me), so there's an extra $20 special order fee, which makes it even more expensive unless you're able to order a lot of them at once, which I can't usually do.


----------



## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> -Are you using big box Baltic or supply house baltic? (5×5 or 4×8?) *4×8 gets you more for your money but lower quality
> *
> 
> - them700project
> ...


You've never noticed a difference because there is none based simply on the dimensions. Premium plywood in 4×8 sheets is available from my local distributor.

Back to the OP, I'm curious why something like veneer thickness or layer count so important for shop cabinets?


----------



## Andrew714 (Nov 28, 2014)

> Back to the OP, I m curious why something like veneer thickness or layer count so important for shop cabinets?
> 
> - Rich


Essentially, I want to make sure it's stable and not going to warp on me, and as I understand it (I could be wrong), plywood with more layers ends up being more stable, hence why BB has so many layers. Also, I don't want a thin veneer because every time I have used plywood with a thin veneer, it always seems like it is not glued on well, and splinters off like crazy whenever it is cut. I believe this has usually been plywood from home depot. In the end, I care more about how it performs and would be fine with fewer veneer layers and thinner face veneers if people have had good luck with that particular product.

Thanks much,

Andrew


----------



## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

Makes sense, Andrew. I guess I haven't had as many issues with plywood, even the inexpensive stuff I've bought at Home Depot for shop stands and the like. Perhaps the dry climate here helps.

I will stress again though that there is no inherent difference in quality between 5×5 and 4×8 products. I buy one or the other depending on the availability of specific features like I mentioned above, and also the yield for the project's parts.


----------



## maxyedor (Jul 6, 2017)

Do you have a real hardwood dealer near you? 4×8 sheets of 3/4" BB are $50ish at my dealer, and they have some other 5 or 6 ply stuff that's a little cheaper still. if you're looking at $600 at $70/sheet, is it safe to assume you need about 8 sheets? A good dealer would likely give you a bit of a discount on a bulk purchase like that.

Failing that, I think your best bet may be to rethink your design, maybe build a case out of poplar or red oak to create a nice square skeleton so you don't have to worry about the flatness of the ply quite as much, and maybe some melamine for the top surface. I've never seen cheaper plywood that didn't look like a banana.


----------



## Andrew714 (Nov 28, 2014)

For reference, this is what I am designing, based on a design a couple other people have posted here on LJ. As you can tell, it's a fair amount larger and more complex than a couple simple cabinets, which certainly adds to the cost.


----------



## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

I like plywood from Menards as they store it flat rather than on the arms like Home Depot.


----------



## YesHaveSome (Sep 10, 2017)

I have had really good luck with Purepond birch ply from Home Depot. It's my go to for shop furniture. As long as it's flat when I buy it I haven't had a problem with warping. $53 per sheet.


----------



## CWWoodworking (Nov 28, 2017)

IMO, plywood kinda is what it is. It's not perfect, nor will it remain perfect.

I have used 100$ sheets and the HD stuff. There isn't 50$ worth difference for me, especially for shop cabinets.

If flatness is critical, use a mdf top. Just make sure you brace it accordingly.


----------



## John_ (Sep 23, 2013)

My local hardwood dealer carries a product they call 'Baltic Birch Import, 12mm, 9 ply' grade is BB/BB and it comes in a 4×8 sheet for $35. (12mm = 0.472")

If you are looking the $70 a sheet range for 3/4", you should consider MDO. It looks great and working with it is easier than normal ply because the resin-impregnated layer on both sides really helps to reduce tear-out. I use it for all my paint grade projects, shop projects, etc. It doesn't really take much in surface prep


----------



## gsk3 (Feb 18, 2020)

My local lumber yard recommended their "paint grade" ply for shop furniture. 50-60 per 4×8. It's good stuff, flat, cuts well. Not as nice as BB but plenty for shop furniture.


----------



## BattleRidge (Oct 22, 2017)

It looks like you are off to a good start in researching the options and there can be many. There can also be many options in where to purchase various products and it can be worthwhile to thoroughly search and find sources you might not be aware of. It would be great if you can find an actual lumber yard that is a regular (and larger) dealer of the things you are wanting.

It can help to have a materials list and discuss the options with the various suppliers, they may have ideas about various alternatives and you can price out the project there. You should also be able to physically check out the various products they have available to get an idea of the quality and suitability. I would also recommend creating a list of various wood products you anticipate purchasing (now and in the future) and creating a chart of various sources, along with their apparent quality and the prices to allow for a side-by-side comparison from each seller (price per square foot can be easy to calculate, view and compare). Of note, prices can change and between the time I last had a price sheet printed out to the day I made my most recent purchase, the prices actually dropped.

I am fortunate to have a variety of lumber resources (not just the big box stores) that I can draw from, though in the end my primary wood source is a lumber yard that is about 50 miles away and that I have been a customer of for well over 30 years from when it consisted of a relatively small collection of buildings and now covers a 50 acre complex ( http://www.keimlumber.com ) - they also have a 150 mile free delivery service (particularly convenient for 5'x'5' Baltic Birch and such - their delivery fleet is first rate).

With Baltic Birch there can be a wide variety of prices, not only depending on where you buy, but also whether you purchase 5'x5' or 4'x8' sheets. Unless I am needing Baltic Birch in a specific size for a project, I generally buy in 5'x5' sheets because it is the least expensive from my supplier and also because I will eventually use the wood - no matter what configuration I buy - and most importantly, it is also of excellent quality.

As an easier comparison of Baltic Birch, I broke the pricing down into the cost per square foot…

Keim Lumber (BB/BB grade):

5'x5' - 1/4" - $.62
5'x5' - 1/2" - $.93
5'x5' - 3/4" - 1.42

4'x8' - 1/4" - $.83
4'x8' - 1/2" - 1.48
4'x8' - 3/4" - 2.06

Menards (BB/CP grade):

4'x8' - 1/4" - $.94
4'x8' - 1/2" - 1.81 
4'x8' - 3/4" - 2.18

I may be at an advantage because my supplier is located in the heart of Ohio's Amish country (with a variety of area woodworking shops & furniture builders) and Keim may be able to purchase a larger quantity / better quality of wood compared to dealers in other areas. My Baltic Birch is comparable / cheaper than many standard hardwood plywood options from the big box stores and thus it makes it an easy choice for many projects.

In essence, you might be lucky to find a lumber source that you aren't yet aware of as an economical supplier of quality products and it can be worth the effort to search.


----------



## therealSteveN (Oct 29, 2016)

For a shop cabinet. CDX plywood. Patch the knots with Durhams Rock hard, sand them flush, and either paint the sheets, or get the least expensive laminate you can buy, and Formica them. 99% of folks using plywood for a saw cabinet are going to use a solid wood to edge it out, otherwise you will find out about the "Nor will it remain perfect" that CW mentions. Slamming into it time and again, doesn't take long until huge chunks are coming off the edges, so you need the solid stuff to save the plywood.

Once you have it edged, and painted or laminated, who is gonna know except you wallet what plywood you have there.

It's supposed to be beat up, used, and abused, and Lord knows what kind of overspray, dust, grime, and all other crap you will get on them the first week, if you use it.

BTW all plywood is flat, until it isn't. Any of them priced lowest to highest can/will warp, curl and all other, if improperly stored. I'll agree 100% with the poster who mentioned Menards, and how their sheet goods are stored. If the stuff they want you to pay the prices they are asking looks terrible, drive away.


----------



## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

I make my shop cabinets to use and practice building cabinets. I built shop cabinets with about 20+ sheets of the Aruaco Ply and they look good. I do not want to look at scrappy looking cdx cabinets. I could never find a decent sheet of cdx grade plywood.


----------



## pontic (Sep 25, 2016)

Cutting thin veneer top layers has always been tricky. Forest blades has a new plywood blade that makes this much less of a problem. Of course you can always score cut lines before you cut.
Also try surfacing the work surfaces with formica, makes the wood slide easier and the dust and glue cleanup easier.


----------



## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

I make my shop cabinets to use and practice building cabinets. I built shop cabinets with about 20+ sheets of the Aruaco Ply and they look good. I do not want to look at scrappy looking cdx cabinets. I could never find a decent sheet of cdx grade plywood.


----------



## them700project (Aug 12, 2015)

> -Are you using big box Baltic or supply house baltic? (5×5 or 4×8?) *4×8 gets you more for your money but lower quality
> *
> 
> - them700project
> ...


with 3/4 you get about half as many layers and many voids and thinner outer layer. Dont get me wrong I primarily use the BORG 4×8 stuff. Around me 4×8 sheets are $55(1.72 per square foot) if I go to the supply house and get 5×5 its about $80($3.20 per square foot) For all my shop furniture and many projects I can accept voids and overcome them with edgebanding or wood filler


----------



## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

My HD usually has several grades of PW and I can usually find one that is mostly void free and has nice faces. The Arauco plywood mentioned above is usually one of the good ones. If yours does not have a better grade, you might be able to order it or at least ask if they can stock it. If you order 1 sheet they will likely get at least a full pallet of it and if the quality isn't good, you can return or just not accept it.


----------



## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Just curious on why the quality would be lower?
> I ve never noticed a difference.
> 
> - LeeRoyMan
> ...


That's why. If you have a commercial distributor in your area you can buy premium 3/4" plywood without those problems in either dimension. It'll likely cost less too.


----------



## Woodmaster1 (Apr 26, 2011)

I get my Baltic Birch 5×5 sheets from Johnson's Workbench in Michigan it's only a 85 mile drive. They have quality Birch plywood 1/8" is 8.78, 1/2" is 25.20, 3/4" is 32.40. The way I break it down I can get 4 cabinet sides out of the 5×5 with the extra 1' x 5' is used for connecting the two sides together. I have very little waste.


----------



## Andrew714 (Nov 28, 2014)

Thanks for all the advice everyone. I browsed through Menards and Home Depot last night, and like several of you guys mentioned, an ACX plywood from Arauco is what looked the best. It has 7 plies, no paper-thin face veneer, and pretty much every sheet on the stack was dead straight. That's not to say that they won't warp once they get into the shop, but I would return it if it does. The face veneers are pine instead of birch, so there's more grain patterns, but for shop cabinets at $40 a sheet instead of $70, I can live with that or just throw some paint on it.

Thanks,

Andrew


----------



## cabo (May 4, 2013)

Please explain how you cut it so I will understand you

thank you Cabo



> I get my Baltic Birch 5×5 sheets from Johnson s Workbench in Michigan it s only a 85 mile drive. They have quality Birch plywood 1/8" is 8.78, 1/2" is 25.20, 3/4" is 32.40. The way I break it down I can get 4 cabinet sides out of the 5×5 with the extra 1 x 5 is used for connecting the two sides together. I have very little waste.
> 
> - Woodmaster1


----------



## OleCuss (Feb 9, 2020)

> Please explain how you cut it so I will understand you
> 
> thank you Cabo
> .
> ...


I'm guessing that two weeks after your query that it has been missed so I'll give you my inexpert response.

In order to maximize our use from the wood which we buy (or otherwise obtain) we'll often develop a "cut plan" where we sketch or draw out our parts on paper (or something) in order to be able to get all of our parts out of the wood we have. Careful planning can minimize waste and costs. But it is important to remember that sometimes you need the grain oriented in a particular direction and that you leave room for the kerf of your saw.

For kitchen cabinetry I think it is pretty common to have the cabinetry about 34.5" tall (36" after the countertop is attached) and about 24" deep. So if you want 4 pieces out of that you'll have to work out the orientation and positioning of the parts in that wood/plywood and then execute the plan.

Off-hand I think I might be able get 4 panels measuring 34.5"x24" out of a 60"x60" piece of plywood but I haven't diagrammed it out and I'd probably have grain orientation issues if I were staining. It gets much easier if you are talking wall cabinetry as I think that is usually 12-18" deep rather than 24" (although I think it is frequently 24" deep over refrigerators).

It really depends on what you are planning to build and how you plan to build it as to how you need to set up your cut plan. It also seems at times like you can make better use of the wood if you plan your cuts over several sheets of plywood - not all pieces from each sheet must necessarily go to the same project.

It can be a bit of an art and I'm certainly not a master of it.


----------



## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Off-hand I think I might be able get 4 panels measuring 34.5"x24" out of a 60"x60" piece of plywood but I haven t diagrammed it out and I d probably have grain orientation issues if I were staining.
> 
> - OleCuss


No, you can't do that if you lay it out with correct grain orientation. Two of those panels would have to go end-to-end relative to the grain and that's 69" plus the kerf. You could pull it off if you had two of the four with horizontal grain, but I don't build cabinets that way. Cutting it would be awkward too since there'd be no one straight cut through the entire sheet.

The way you get four cabinet panels out of that sheet is to cut the sides 30" tall (slightly less due to the kerf) and then build a 5" tall base for them to sit on. That'll give you a 35" high cabinet and with a top on it, it's pretty much 36" tall.

Either way, that bottom base is set back from the front of the cabinet and forms the toe-kick area. If it's a face frame cabinet, the width of the bottom rail will be such that it extends 1" below the bottom of the cabinet so the toe-kick is still a pretty-much standard 4".

There are other advantages to doing with a separate base. One is that it's easier to level a long row of cabinets if you start with a level base, and getting that base level is easier with a small base frame.


----------



## OleCuss (Feb 9, 2020)

Thank you. That is much appreciated.


----------



## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Thank you. That is much appreciated.
> 
> - OleCuss


You were right that it can be done. If they were going to be painted, grain direction wouldn't matter anyway.

Even more efficient is that you can get six sides out of a 4×8 sheet.


----------



## Jim Jakosh (Nov 24, 2009)

I hav a place near me that discards dumpsters full of 13 ply 5/8 and 17 ply 3/4 maple plywood. It says it is guaranteed flat over 5 ft. There are no long pieces like you need but if you lived in the Grand Rapids, Mi. area i could show you where to get it. The used to save it on stacks for a guy that burned it, but now it all goes to a landfill unless we can retriever good pieces out before it leaves!


----------



## WoodfanIM (Mar 30, 2020)

I have found better wood at Menards than the other box stores.
You can get 3/4" 4×8 sheets of different grades of Birch, Oak and I think I have seen maple and they are always around $48 to 53 a sheet.
Catch them on sale or their 11% off everything deals and stock up.
I have gotten 9 ply Birch and even their BCX plywood is not bad for areas that arent seen like the base or other interior boards.
I have only had a few voids but nothing to make me not want to buy wood from there again.
And the Birch looks great just clear coated. A lot of nice grain


----------



## WoodfanIM (Mar 30, 2020)

Andrew,
Also, plywood will warp usually how it is stored or handled. 
The more plys the better as they are gross grain glued together to prohibit movement.
Thats why on cheaper 3 and 5 ply plywoods sitting on the lots at Depot and Lowes are warped.
Some of it has to do with how it was made in the factory 
So make sure when you get it to your shop you store it as vertical as possible, length wise and not standing up.

Good luck with that project


----------



## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

There is an Asian import version of bb ply called "Dragon Ply" with the same number of plies, but with a different species of white wood. It is 18mm thick and relatively inexpensive.
In Phoenix is is carried by Hardwoods Specialty Products.

I'm not sure if you have a supplier in your neck of the woods, but it is worth a look.
https://www.hardwoods-inc.com/sites/default/files/dragonplybrochure2019hw_us.pdf


----------



## Picken5 (Jan 12, 2011)

I've had good experiences using 3/4" Radiata Pine plywood from Home Depot. Don't know if they carry in in all stores, but they do in central Kansas. It has 7 plys and pretty darn close to being knot and void free. It's not exactly 3/4" thick - like most plywoods it's a bit thinner - 23/32". It cuts well and I've done dadoes & rabbets without any issues. And it only costs $36.48 / 4×8 sheet - not bad for this quality. The outer veneer isn't very attractive IMO, so I wouldn't try for any natural finish. But for shop cabinets it may not be a big deal and painting should work fine. Here's a pic of one of the shop cabinets I built. The face frame is maple with cherry drawer fronts, but the entire carcass and drawer boxes are Radiata Pine Plywood. You can see a portion of the side using this plywood.


----------



## tvrgeek (Nov 19, 2013)

I picked up some birch plywood at the local HD. Looked good. By the next day, it was a canoe. My TS base is just plain cdx.


----------



## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

HD stores their plywood on arms and develops waves. Menards stores theirs flat.


----------



## Andrew714 (Nov 28, 2014)

Like WoodfanIM said, Menards has some varieties of pine and birch, maple, oak, etc ply that looks pretty decent. I'll probably try out some ACX Radiata pine plywood for some shop cabinets, and maybe some of the hardwood varieties for anything that needs to look nicer.


----------



## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

I try to use BB Ply whenever possible, but even that warps if you leave it around for long enough. OP- you can buy the stuff from HD or LOWES, given the amount of intersections that the wood will have, as that will provide stabilization against warping. Just build your project right away before the taco comes to visit.


----------



## Woodmaster1 (Apr 26, 2011)

My Baltic Birch supplier is closing for a couple of weeks or until Michigan's stay at home order is over. They were allowing pickups only if you call and they would put it out and you load it. So I was a week late late in loading up on plywood. I should have hoarded it like people do tp.


----------



## PresidentsDad (Sep 21, 2017)

Hey all, good discussion here. Got a question. To date I've really only built some shop furniture, but I'm about to embark on my first cabinet project. I'll likely be painting them, so probably poplar for the face frames, doors, etc. The sides will not be seen at all. But..for the carcass, dividers and floor….is BB really necessary or even so called "cabinet grade" plywood from the Big Box Store or could one simply use a decent grade of pine plywood (like Radiata Pine) for the carcass? Thanks for any advice from the experienced cabinet builder types.


----------



## shampeon (Jun 3, 2012)

The reason most people use BB ply is because it typically has zero (or very few) voids, consistent layers, and good, clean faces. Finding equivalent e.g. radiata ply will be hard, and basically impossible at big box stores.

In general, I avoid buying plywood at home centers. You can find better quality ply at hardwood dealers, and often for not much more than what they charge for "cabinet grade" ply at big box stores. "Shop grade" ply would work well for your purposes.


----------



## John_ (Sep 23, 2013)

> The reason most people use BB ply is because it typically has zero (or very few) voids, consistent layers, and good, clean faces. Finding equivalent e.g. radiata ply will be hard, and basically impossible at big box stores.
> 
> In general, I avoid buying plywood at home centers. You can find better quality ply at hardwood dealers, and often for not much more than what they charge for "cabinet grade" ply at big box stores. "Shop grade" ply would work well for your purposes.
> 
> - shampeon


In general, I would agree with you but I recently bought a couple sheets of 1/2" Baltic Birch from my local hardwood dealer. They bring them out to the parking lot and help you load them into your vehicle. The first time I got a good look at then was when I got home, and I noticed that one sheet had 8 different patches. When I brought it to their attention, they sent me a copy of their grading sheet which indicated up to 8 patches for a BB/BB grade was acceptable. I was using them for drawer boxes so I was able to work around some of them, but it was a little disappointing


----------



## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Andre answered the question, at thirty a sheet. I've used at least fifty sheets for my kitchen, a store, carts for my shop….


----------

