# When does our hobby shop need a contractor liscense?



## WhiskeyCreek (Mar 30, 2015)

I have had a recent client become a disaster. She canceled half of the work that was put on the contract and refuses to pay for the thousands of dollars worth of copper I bought. The deposit paid for the work I did do, but not the remaining material. She is now taking me to small claims court saying she is required her money back because I do not have a contractors license. I am in school and do not promote myself as a contractor, but do require my clients to sign a contract for the protection of both of us. Most of the big woodworkers in my area do not have a contractors license. I do want to make money through my woodwork, but am not trying to turn it into a big business. Should I be scared? Does she have an argument? Where is the point that a small shop needs to become licensed?
Thanks Guys


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## Carloz (Oct 12, 2016)

Countersue her for the material.


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## jacksdvds (Jun 13, 2015)

Promote yourself as an artisan with whom she contracted for the work. They do not require licenses because there is no government control on "Freedom of Speech" which all artisan can work under. You contracted for labor and materials which she agreed to?


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

A lot will depend on you State and City laws/ordinances. If you made a contract with someone your are contracting. You better seek the advice of a layer in you area who know the laws where you live. Where I live I believe I'd be in deep do do.

Is this in writing?


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

You need to check your local regulations. I would imagine CA is fussier than some regarding the requirement for being licensed and insured. It also depends on what you're doing. I build doors, but I don't install them. I leave it up to the buyer to have their contractor do the work. Plus, if he screws it up, it's not my problem.


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## WhiskeyCreek (Mar 30, 2015)

I have council. It is in writing, but as far as the contract she signed; she is in the wrong. That is only as the contract reads. I don't understand when it is necessary or do most of us just slide by without being noticed. There are major woodworkers here in California that don't have any license and never have a problem. I like the artisan idea. It seems the line is if your promoting yourself for profit. Which yes I get paid for my work, but not a lot and my main focus is school. I could never live off of my woodwork. I am just trying to be prepared for a solid answer.


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

What exactly are you doing for this client?

Are you making something for her and she takes it home? Or, are you installing something at her house or office?


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## Hammerthumb (Dec 28, 2012)

If someone buys a car from you and you write up a contract, do you need to be a contractor? I don't think so.
If you do work in someone's house or commercial jobsite, and write a contract, then you will need a license.


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

I'm no lawyer, but here, if you attach anything to a wall you need to have a contractors license.

Regardless of whether you have the license or not, she contractually agreed to have you do said work for said amount.

I think she could probably get out of the contract, 
but I doubt that she could get away without paying you for work performed.
As far as money you have spent on material, not really sure. 
A lot will depend on the contract you wrote up that she signed, and how much of it is enforceable by law.

Again, not a lawyer, but I would think if you were contracting without a license that would be more of a problem with the contractors board than the client. 
I'm sure your work would have had to be done to contractors laws/standards.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> What exactly are you doing for this client?
> 
> Are you making something for her and she takes it home? Or, are you installing something at her house or office?
> 
> - waho6o9


That would be good information for us to know since your asking our advise.


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

Contracting w/o a license is a Misdemeanor in Phoenix.

What she did reminds me of how some unscrupulous contractors hire undocumented workers and then call INS at the end of the day to avoid paying for the labor.

If indeed you need a license for the work you did, she could possibly argue that no legal contract existed since such contracting would be illegal under your local statutes.

I'm no lawyer, so this is not legal advice.


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## Jon_H (Jun 21, 2016)

Typically, a license is an agreement between a tradesman and a government agency. They're usually intended to ensure the tradesman complies with all applicable laws and building codes. And to provide a measure of protection for consumers/clients.

Typically, clients are not required by law to use licensed tradesmen. There are benefits to hiring licensed workers and there are risks to contracting unlicensed workers (and vice versa). Usually, the law leaves it up to the consumer to decide what benefits and risks they're willing to take on. Consumers are free to enter into contracts with unlicensed tradesmen and unlicensed tradesmen are free to enter into contracts with consumers.

A contract between a tradesman and a client is a different animal. It lays out what each party is agreeing to provide. The tradesman provides labor and materials to be delivered on a schedule. The client provides money, perhaps also on a schedule.

Unless your contract with the client stipulated that you had to be licensed, then there should be no connection, no relationship between your contact with the client and your licensed/unlicensed status.

However, it can depend on the nature of your work as well. If you're rewiring her house, or redoing the plumbing, for pay, then the law may require you to have an appropriate license. If you're planting flowers in her garden, or building her a bookcase, then the law most likely would not require you to be licensed.

As others have stated, things can be different from state to state, county to county, or even city to city, so local legal expertise should be your best source of information.


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## jimintx (Jan 23, 2014)

I think "thousands of dollars worth of copper" sounds like you are doing a larger job. 
Tell us about the scope of work you undertook for her. That will allow readers here to give you better input.


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## Hermit (Oct 9, 2014)

California law requires that anything over $500.00 in labor and materials (combined), requires a contractor license. You can't bid on anything over that amount unless you are licensed by the state of California to perform such work.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

You don't have to be a contractor to build
custom furniture.

I think you should be optimistic about things
because I don't see how she has a case and
if she actually does drag you into court, she'll
probably lose and in any case judgments are
difficult to collect.

That said, I would try once more to reason
with her, in writing, and offer to sell her
the material. She backed out for her own
reasons, and now she wants you to take
the loss.

You could also recycle the copper and offer
to pay her what you get for it. It's unfortunately
a lose-lose scenario. Usually with industrial
materials a substantial restocking fee is
charged when materials are returned. Retail
consumers aren't familiar with this business
practice.


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

Depends entirely on what you are doing, if you are building furniture you don't need to be a contractor. If you are remodeling her bathroom then you probably do need to be a contractor.

Deposits should always cover the cost of the materials so you don't get stiffed.

I think you should be worried because even if you are right, she can cost you money with court costs, lawyer fees etc.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> You don t have to be a contractor to build
> custom furniture.
> 
> I think you should be optimistic about things
> ...


Well there a lot of advice being given and we don't even know the scope of the work he'd doing. He seem reluctant to say. He says he has counsel so I don't know why he's asking a bunch of non lawyers these question.


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## gargey (Apr 11, 2016)

He's probably setting up her grow-house…


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## Ripper70 (Nov 30, 2015)

Send her a flak jacket with a dead fish in it. That'll get her attention!


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## Ripper70 (Nov 30, 2015)

> I am in school and do not promote myself as a contractor, but do require my clients to sign a contract for the protection of both of us.
> 
> - WhiskeyCreek


The artisan angle may work. Not sure about the rules in California. It may be a stretch to say that you don't promote yourself as a contractor based on the website that promotes your work.

Your stuff looks beautiful, by the way. It's a shame that there are some people/clients that insist on acting like a-holes.


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## woodbutcherbynight (Oct 21, 2011)

This is why I refuse to do work for anyone but me. It only takes one to make your PT make some money gig to go sideways. Sucks but in our current state of sue happy idiots this is what happens. Get a lawyerm, refuse to speak to her and let them deal with it. Drag it out forever.


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## dhazelton (Feb 11, 2012)

I don't see how building custom furniture requires a contractor license. Plumbing or remodeling or electrical work yes. I think if you produce a contract that she signed you would be on the winning side of this argument.


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## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

> I don t see how building custom furniture requires a contractor license. Plumbing or remodeling or electrical work yes. I think if you produce a contract that she signed you would be on the winning side of this argument.
> 
> - dhazelton


Furniture doesn't attach to anything. No license required. The work he's doing hasn't been specified…


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## Tootles (Jul 21, 2011)

> It is in writing, but as far as the contract she signed; she is in the wrong. That is only as the contract reads.
> 
> - WhiskeyCreek


I'm not in the US, so I can only comment on what I would suggest are general principles that I would think are similar.

I was taught "Offer + Acceptance = Contract". Generally, you are the one who makes the offer, with your terms attached, and she accepts the offer. There are sometimes situations where the offer is not legally valid, but they are not common. Failure to do due diligence is generally not one of them, though deliberate misrepresentation could be.

Once you have a contract, the next thing I was taught comes into play - RTFC (Read the … Contract). When you have a written contract, nothing applies except what "the contract reads". Prior verbal conversations etc. count for nothing.

A contract creates rights and obligations. She has the right to receive the goods, you have the obligation to deliver them. You have the right to be paid, she has the obligation to pay. There may be others, but these are the main ones.

It is when something comes up that is not covered by the contract that you have a problem. What that basically tells you is that your written contract, and the process you follow to enter into contracts, might need improvement. When this experience is over, sit back and think carefully about what you could have done up front to prevent it from happening, then do that in future.

The final thing that I was taught is that "when lawyers get involved, the only people who win are the lawyers." It is the best interests of both you and your client to resolve this without involving lawyers. Even if it costs you money, it is just the price of the lessons it teaches you.

As I said, these are general principles from outside the US. Hopefully they are helpful. but feel free to ignore if not.


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## BurlyBob (Mar 13, 2012)

Ditto to what woodbutcher said!!


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## BustedClock (Jun 30, 2011)

FWIW, I believe lawyers aren't allowed in small claims court in California. Because the parties are representing themselves, small claims judges typically grant a little slack to both sides with respect to rules of evidence, procedure, etc.

Nevertheless, your lawyer should be advising you both on the case, and on how to make the best presentation. If he/she isn't, maybe you need to think about your choice of lawyers.


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## BustedClock (Jun 30, 2011)

> It is in writing, but as far as the contract she signed; she is in the wrong. That is only as the contract reads.
> 
> - WhiskeyCreek
> 
> ...


Hey Tootles, would you happen to be resident in the UK? I ask simply because your post sounds exactly like what I learned about Common Law in my Contracts class. Most states in the US seem to have added a lot of bling to the common law, but at heart, all these contracts share the principles you describe.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> It is in writing, but as far as the contract she signed; she is in the wrong. That is only as the contract reads.
> 
> - WhiskeyCreek
> 
> ...


His profile with tell you he's not in the UK


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## Tootles (Jul 21, 2011)

No, I am not in the UK. I currently live in Australia, so I think it still all applies locally, but I was taught that in a short Contracts Law course that I did in one of the other ex-colonies of the UK.


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## Carloz (Oct 12, 2016)

Hm… thousands follars of copper? Are you installing new roof?
And we hear only one side of the story. Why did she decide to get out of the contract? Was the job you did unacceptable?


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## WoodES (Oct 8, 2013)

WC, 
I have had experience with the California Contractor's License laws and recommend you research this yourself depending on the work you were to perform. You can also contact the CLSB and ask them if the work you were to perform would require a license.

The basic definition of a contractor requiring a license is in the Business & Professions Code, Division 3, Chapter 9, Article 2, 7026.
"Contractor," for the purposes of this chapter, is synonymous with "builder" and, within the meaning of this chapter, a contractor is any person who undertakes to or offers to undertake to, or purports to have the capacity to undertake to, or submits a bid to, or does himself or herself or by or through others, construct, alter, repair, add to, subtract from, improve, move, wreck or demolish any building, highway, road, parking facility, railroad, excavation or other structure, project, development or improvement, or to do any part thereof, including the erection of scaffolding or other structures or works in connection therewith, or the cleaning of grounds or structures in connection therewith, or the preparation and removal of roadway construction zones, lane closures, flagging, or traffic diversions, or the installation, repair, maintenance, or calibration of monitoring equipment for underground storage tanks, and whether or not the performance of work herein described involves the addition to, or fabrication into, any structure, project, development or improvement herein described of any material or article of merchandise. "Contractor" includes subcontractor and specialty contractor. "Roadway" includes, but is not limited to, public or city streets, highways, or any public conveyance.

Your Attorney can explain the finer points of the law as prescribed by case law.

If your work would be permanently attached by you to the clients home or other structure then you may need a contractors license. If the contracted work is unattached then most likely a license is not required.

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes.xhtml

http://www.cslb.ca.gov/


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## Hammerthumb (Dec 28, 2012)

As stated above, if you are doing built ins, you need a contractors license.
Not sure, but I don't think Tage Frid had a contractors license.


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## playingwithmywood (Jan 10, 2014)

Thank God I do not live in CA

But why will he not just tell us what he was doing for her


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## Redsoxfan (Dec 12, 2013)

You probably do not need a contractors' license, unless you go to their homes and work (Such as cabinet or built-in installs).

You do, however, most likely need a business permit.


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

My county and state are a pain in the backside. I can build anything I want and sell it. Depending upon how much I sell determines whether it is a hobby or business. I keep it to hobby level.

That doesn't mean I can hang it on the wall or in otherwise install what I make - to do that, I would need a home improvement license. I tell the customer this and who they hire to install it is up to them. If they break it, the repairs are additional. If they drive a screw through a pipe or electrical cable - not my problem.

It is sad it has come down to this but I am not not going to have the permit or inspectors slap me with fines. I did some work on my daughter's house and had the building/electrical inspector check my work since it is in a different state. He told me that it is illegal for me to make those kinds of changes. He went on to tell me that every one of the things I did exceeded code requirements and it was refreshing to see some work that was actually safe. He went on to say that the original panel was a mess and wanted to see who approved it. He looked at the the Inspector's signature and it was his. Things change over 40 years. We discussed what I was planning to do in the house - electrically, and told me that this would be one of the few houses that was actually safe.

The moral to the story - if you are going to do something, do it by the numbers and a little better. You can sometimes be surprised at the outcome. But you need to do your research - I have had (in previous careers) a Master HVAC license, a state 1st Class Stationary Engineer's license, and a gas fitters license so I do have a fair background in some of this stuff.


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## Planeman40 (Nov 3, 2010)

There is a lesson to be learned here. I used to use my home shop to make some money so I could buy more machines. The common practice here in Atlanta is at the beginning of the job the materials purchased to be involved in the job are to billed directly to the client by the materials supplier. Or the material cost is to be paid in advance to the contractor. I and my clients preferred the former. Also, predetermined progress payments are made in the contract for larger longer running jobs.

You have to protect yourself in these arrangements and also make the client feel protected. It is a delicate balance.


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## Snipes (Apr 3, 2012)

Jon Hobbs covered it perfectly!!


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> Jon Hobbs covered it perfectly!!
> 
> - Snipes


Who is John Hobbs, I don't know why people refuse to use the "quote" feature.


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## Gilley23 (May 9, 2017)

No he didn't, none of that matters. It's all speculation. Unless the information given is applicable directly to his state and directly to his county the thoughts and advice here don't mean squat, it's all opinion.

This thread isn't about getting advice, it's about a rant of the situation.



> Jon Hobbs covered it perfectly!!
> 
> - Snipes


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## jimintx (Jan 23, 2014)

> Who is John Hobbs, I don t know why people refuse to use the "quote" feature.
> 
> - AlaskaGuy


Joh Hobs is a member here. He posts under his own name (imagine that). 
He wrote a thoughtful piece of information in post #11 of this thread. 
Sometime, I don't know why people don't read the whole thread in which they are participating, ... unless of course its one of the endless ones on LJ, with thousands of entries.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> Who is John Hobbs, I don t know why people refuse to use the "quote" feature.
> 
> - AlaskaGuy
> 
> ...


I have read the whole thread. Can I remember who said what it every post in the thread…..hell no. Maybe you can but I can't and I'll bet I"m not alone.

In this case (and many others) I had to go back through the thread and find John post and refresh my memory. OK maybe not a big deal but neither is using the quote feature that makes things easier. Just MHO


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

> He went on to say that the original panel was a mess and wanted to see who approved it. He looked at the the Inspector s signature and it was his.
> - dbray45


Same situation happened to us in a commercial building. Inspector came and started ranting about the wiring and what idiot ever signed off on it … you guessed it, he did. Except it was 5 years instead of 40. His face went so red I thought he would have an aneurysm.


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## jimintx (Jan 23, 2014)

Okay, MHO (aka AlaskaGuy) - you're definitely right about that. 
I had to go back to find the post by member "John Hobbs".
.


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## magaoitin (Oct 20, 2015)

You probably have enough info on this already, and John in post #11 has the right of it. As a General Contractor licensed in Washington, Oregon, Idaho, Alaska, and California I have a couple points that you might want to consider. You are in a scary situation, but not for what has been stated above.

California is the hardest and most difficult state, west of the Mississippi to be a general contractor. And to my knowledge only New York is worse. I have personal experience with a guy in your situation, that for a $5,000 renovation, he ended up +$50k in fines and was not allowed to get a contractors licence again in CA.

1. The good news (if you can call it that):Your customer cannot sue you for not being a licensed contractor. She can only sue you for a breach in your contract. ie you did not finish on time, damaged her property, poor workmanship, etc…something that is specific in the contract that was breached on your part. I hope you have a good contract and not something you just found on the internet.

2. What she can do, is turn you in to the Department of Licensing & Department of Revenue and be a evil witch, but it will not get her any money, just hurt you beyond belief. They will fine you (heavily) for doing business without a contracting licence, Bonding , and Insurance. I am going out on a limb and will assume since you don't have a contractors licence you don't have insurance or bonding. Then the State DOL will turn it over to the City you reside in, and they get to fine you for not having a Business licence in your home city, and (depending on the City your client's house is in) her city can fine you for not having a business licence in their specific city.

3. Expect a call from the CA Department of Revenue as well. Once the City's and State Department of Licencing have their teeth in you they will refer this to the DOR. You obviously are not paying taxes on your work, so hopefully you at least have the receipts for the material. This can go State, then Federal for tax evasion/under reporting.

4. Since you did go to the trouble of signing a contract, she is bound by that as well to give notice for termination (if you included a termination clause in the contract whether it is for cause or convenience). If she has breached the contract, then you are free to sue her for lost profit, material and labor costs, etc…as long as it was in your contract.

As others state above, I am not a lawyer. But I have done work in your State for commercial and government projects for over 15 years, and the only way I have found that you can be a general contractor in CA without a CA contractors licence, is if you are working on Federal Property (park, military base, whatever). Even then you have to have a contractors licence in some other state at a minimum, plus you still need a business licence for the city you are working in.

Good luck


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## BareFootWoodworks (Jul 20, 2017)

Seeing as I ran into the same problem in my home state of PA a number of years ago, I've learned as a general rule of thumb that if you are making any form of alteration to the structure of a residential dwelling having a contractors license is required or at least extremely helpful.

However for CA specificly:

Who must be licensed as a contractor?

All businesses and individuals who construct or alter, or offer to construct or alter, any building, highway, road, parking facility, railroad, excavation, or other structure in California (other than federal projects located in California) must be licensed by the CSLB if the total cost of labor and materials under one or more contracts on the project is $500 or more.

Note: Contractors who work with asbestos or other hazardous substances are regulated by the U.S. Department of Labor, U.S. Occupational Safety and Health Administration and the California Division of Occupational Safety and Health, as well as by the CSLB.

Manufacturer Exemption: Manufacturers who sell or install finished products that do not become a fixed part of a structure are not required to have a contractor's license.

Credit:
https://calconstructionlawblog.com/2013/09/04/what-you-need-to-know-about-obtaining-a-contractors-license-in-california/

As long as whatever you were making was made in your shop and not affixed to the structure then you should meet the exemption.

Since my experience, I simply contract an installer to do any installations work for me.


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## Snipes (Apr 3, 2012)

> Jon Hobbs covered it perfectly!!
> 
> - Snipes
> Who is John Hobbs, I don t know why people refuse to use the "quote" feature.
> ...


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> Jon Hobbs covered it perfectly!!
> 
> - Snipes
> Who is John Hobbs, I don t know why people refuse to use the "quote" feature.
> ...


Is something bothering you?


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## AZWoody (Jan 18, 2015)

I don't feel like going through every thread again but was there every any clarification on what the job actually was or is everyone just speculating on whether or not he needed a contractor's license?


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> I don t feel like going through every thread again but was there every any clarification on what the job actually was or is everyone just speculating on whether or not he needed a contractor s license?
> 
> - AZWoody


No, the OP bailed on us. Never ever said what the scope of the work was.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Maybe the OP needs to be bailed out?


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## Desert_Woodworker (Jan 28, 2015)

As J Bay said, "I'm no lawyer, but here, if you attach anything to a wall you need to have a contractor's license." He is correct, I am a former B General contractor and lawyer and professional woodworker (verification can be verified) may I add:
Under AZ contractor law once you engage with performing work in a person's home you will need a license of some sort with restriction on the type of work.
There is the "Handy Man exemption" that exempts a person from needing a license, for work at $1,000 or less. Similar to restrictions, on a B General or a lesser classification; you cannot work on heating/cooling, electrical and plumbing.
Aside, you can piecemeal parts of your contract into various $999 yet under $1,000 to stay in the handyman exemption.
Now we have the previous comments of "take her to court, with your contract!"
Take note: Any contract that is:
In a lawsuit, if the court finds a contract to be unconscionable, they will typically declare the contract to be void. No damages award or specific performance will be issued, but instead the parties will be released from their contract obligations.
Bang! End of story, game stops. If she wants more $$$, then it is a new game. 
You have my sympathies to the position that you are in- as for those other woodworkers down the street- some people are luckier than others.
In AZ and Detroit I could tell you stories on how unlicensed guys payback, but you do not seem the type to throw a rock through her window. You are too nice of a guy to be in this business.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> As J Bay said, "I'm no lawyer, but here, if you attach anything to a wall you need to have a contractor's license." He is correct, I am a former B General contractor and lawyer and professional woodworker (verification can be verified) may I add:
> Under AZ contractor law once you engage with performing work in a person's home you will need a license of some sort with restriction on the type of work.
> There is the "Handy Man exemption" that exempts a person from needing a license, for work at $1,000 or less. Similar to restrictions, on a B General or a lesser classification; you cannot work on heating/cooling, electrical and plumbing.
> Aside, you can piecemeal parts of your contract into various $999 yet under $1,000 to stay in the handyman exemption.
> ...


You're beating a dead horse. The OP seems to have left the building. And since we still don't know the scope of his work and don't know California kaw any thing you say means nothing.


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## Desert_Woodworker (Jan 28, 2015)

Pt2 
Contract info: to make you a wiser person
§ 2-302. Unconscionable contract or Clause.
(1) If the court as a matter of law finds the contractor any clause of the contract to have been unconscionable at the time it was made the court may refuse to enforce the contract, or it may enforce the remainder of the contract without the unconscionable clause, or it may so limit the application of any unconscionable clause as to avoid any unconscionable result.
(2) When it is claimed or appears to the court that the contractor any clause thereof may be unconscionable the parties shall be afforded a reasonable opportunity to present evidence as to its commercial setting, purpose and effect to aid the court in making the determination.

2. or as I said above-it is not uncommon, in this field to seek an, alternative justice…










An then there is the Bible that can answer this….....


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## Desert_Woodworker (Jan 28, 2015)

Alaska and others- it is not only about OP- My reason for taking time to respond, was, yes to address him but to the other "not knowing Legal Jocks" , that can inform them on how the legal system operates and the other "street" justice that exist.


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## msinc (Jan 8, 2017)

It really depends on the law in your state or locality…i.e., I live in the communist, democrat, left wing, liberal state of Maryland. Maryland is a "contract law" state. This means that the court will only hear a case that involves a legal, ratified {signed and agreed upon} contract between the parties involved. Lacking that, the judge will tell both of you that "you don't have a deal". If this is the case then where you stand now is where you stand. 
All that said, having or not having, needing or not needing a contract is one issue. Having/needing or not having/not needing a business license is another. 
Now, all that said, IF this person can get you into court and they admit to agreeing to this deal then as long as your hands are clean you should be okay, even if it turns out you should have had a license. If {again, assuming you can be called into court to begin with} this person is asking the court for relief, but her hands are not clean…then she, not you, may be the one with the problem.


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## Andybb (Sep 30, 2016)

Neither she or the small claims court are the IRS. If her contract with you does not require that you have a contractors license you should be good. I'm sure someone else has said this. You would counter her in the same proceedings and probably prevail and at the very least recover your expenses and any work done. Check your local laws.


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## ArlinEastman (May 22, 2011)

Deleted


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## Jon_H (Jun 21, 2016)

> Jon Hobbs covered it perfectly!!
> 
> - Snipes
> Who is John Hobbs, I don t know why people refuse to use the "quote" feature.
> ...


It would appear I've become semi-notorious


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## Holbs (Nov 4, 2012)

thanks folks. for commenting and tossing around do's & dont's. This kind of info is handy for the new kids on the block, such of myself. I am considering buying my company I work at (I'm 50/50) and I know I'll have to learn all about contractor's license, bonding, insurance, bleh bleh bleh. But in the mean time, I knew starting a wood working business and moving forward, I would need posts like this to keep me on my toes about legalities. I did pursue a business "license" last year and an State Of Nevada commerce thingy for a tax id. That's it  Granted, haven't build or sold anything (as I knew I wouldn't yet) but these type of posts helps keep an open mind for future endeavors.


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## bruc101 (Sep 13, 2008)

We've been in business since 1946 (architectural millwork) and have never had to have a contractors license. Also, since our shop is located in the county and not city where we live, we've never had to have a business license.

The only thing that is required of us is we have to be bonded and have workman's compensation insurance. That is required by the architects, contractors and the areas we do work for. We're also a LLC company.

The cabinet shops in our area do not have to have a CL even though they do their own installs.

We do no wiring and plumbing. We do only wood and do the installations. Builders, electricians and plumbers here do have to have a CL in their related fields.


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## Desert_Woodworker (Jan 28, 2015)

The reality is you have to pay attention to the "bleh". I say from experience…. Once you get your license, the paper work begins… Once you understand it, it becomes part of doing business. In my case, I was fortunate to have 2 contractor friends, who helped me. If you do not comply with the government agencies, you will learn quickly, on how soon your license is suspended.
But there is more:
Sole proprietor- LLC- Corporation, which of the previous are you going to "declare" when setting up your business? 
Please, don't be discouraged for this is how the system operates. Also, if you learn anything from this post, as J Bay stated….
'If you put a nail in the wall, you are a contractor." 
Best to all,


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

I'm a 30-year contractor in Oregon a license is not required here unless you're doing work at the customers home or business. 
My father in law did business in southern California for 60 years as a sash and door man and when the contractor issue was brought up by the state he stated he was a manufacturer and a contractors Licence was not required after that he was never pursued by the state to become licensed again. Since I'm not a lawyer I don't pretend to know what the law is now, my best advice is to obtain legal advice from a lawyer that specializes in this avenue of the law.
It's very possible the person you're dealing with had planned this tack from the beginning, very sorry you're going through this.


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## WAPY (Jul 4, 2017)

Hi all, this is a very interesting thread.

You can found his trade offer here: https://www.custommade.com/by/whiskeycreekmoodmill/
it probably can help understanding his work better and give all an idea …..

Only a point I'd like to add, just for sake of comparision: here in Italy one cannot sell either a piece of wood without a registered licence ad be sure you'll pay a good amount of taxes for whatever smallest revenue; and we cannot have any activity in our garages or alike rooms unless we live in a single private house and even then we must declare that to the cityhall because it is not only intended as car parking .


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## AZWoody (Jan 18, 2015)

> Hi all, this is a very interesting thread.
> 
> You can found his trade offer here: https://www.custommade.com/by/whiskeycreekmoodmill/
> it probably can help understanding his work better and give all an idea …..
> ...


Interesting. He does good work. If he just makes the desks and stations then yeah, I don't think he would need the license but he might be installing them so that's where the license comes into play. 
All depends what the state of California thinks concerning that.


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## Blackie_ (Jul 10, 2011)

What exactly is her beef?

Being a box builder, when I have a custom order, I require half payment up front and the second half once finished nothing signed only email paper trails.


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## smitdog (Aug 20, 2012)

Seeing as how the OP hasn't replied since the 19th and has yet to offer what kind of work he was "contracted" to do then we can probably drop the LegalJocks conjecture concerning his current predicament. "Thousands of dollars worth of copper pipe" doesn't sound like simply woodworking to me but I suppose it could be used for something decorative rather than for plumbing… I think the absolute best legal advice for anyone stumbling across this thread is this: If you are thinking about creating a "contract" with a customer then you probably should look into the local law governing such "contracts" before you actually create it (or download it!) and especially before you sign it.


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## Jon_H (Jun 21, 2016)

> Seeing as how the OP hasn t replied since the 19th and has yet to offer what kind of work he was "contracted" to do …


Odds are, his attorney advised him to stop discussing his case on the internet  Sage advice, if true.


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## diverlloyd (Apr 25, 2013)

> Seeing as how the OP hasn t replied since the 19th and has yet to offer what kind of work he was "contracted" to do …
> 
> Odds are, his attorney advised him to stop discussing his case on the internet  Sage advice, if true.
> 
> - Jon Hobbs


2nd this or op is busy and just hasn't got back on.

Smitdog you are adding to the conjecture with the "thousands of dollars of copper pipe" the quote from op is "thousands of dollars of copper I bought" pipe wasnt mentioned.

Op good luck in you lawsuit and make sure you try to counter sue.


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## Desert_Woodworker (Jan 28, 2015)




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## AZWoody (Jan 18, 2015)

> Seeing as how the OP hasn t replied since the 19th and has yet to offer what kind of work he was "contracted" to do …
> 
> Odds are, his attorney advised him to stop discussing his case on the internet  Sage advice, if true.
> 
> ...


It's all conjecture because none of us even know what's going on. Why wish him luck and tell him to countersue without knowing anything? He could be very well in the wrong and screwed the client over big time…


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## Desert_Woodworker (Jan 28, 2015)




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## WhiskeyCreek (Mar 30, 2015)

Hey Guys
Thank you for all the advice and help. I don't use lumberjocks frequently, but find it to be a great source for a variety advice and ideas when stumped. Court case is going great and a decent number of you helped with that outcome. Anybody that would like some information of the rules and regulations in California of what we do and the dangers of being or not being licensed; let me know and I will tell you all about it. Thanks again to the woodworkers and trolls.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

^ Answer of the Week right there. Good on ya, WhiskeyCreek. Glad it's going well for you.


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

Good news Whiskey Creek thanks for keeping us posted.


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## OSU55 (Dec 14, 2012)

Keep the updates coming Whiskey. It would be informative for all if you provided details of the issues and CA law in your case.


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## diverlloyd (Apr 25, 2013)

Well that's good for you on the court system.

Az I wish him the best because of the contract,looking at what he makes and just having to deal with the court system. I don't care if he's the one doing the screwing or getting the screwing that's for the court to decide and for the contract to protect both parties. So yeah counter sue as my lawyer has told me numerous times(never been sued he's just a family friend and lawyer) if you get sued you counter sue that way everything gets taken care of at the same time. We can only go by one side of the story that we have and with most people who who don't read through a whole thread and just read the original and last 15 posts. Would have read the quote with pipe in it and that changes the whole story and moves the conjecture in a whole different direction. With that single word in quotes and being misquoted has moved op into being a plumber/pipefitting contractor and not a wood worker who builds very nice looking(google his signature tag) furnature. So by reading what op stated asking help for looking at what he builds and that he has to go to court I wish him the best and if he is in the wrong which I doubt, he should still counter sue there is no reason not to. He can get it all out of the way in one sitting. And if it was me I would also make sure I didn't have anything else to do at the court house while I was there like checking my property taxes,get a print out of upcoming sheriff sales and what not. Just because I like to get things done all at once when I'm at a place.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

If he counter sues the lawyer makes of good either way it turns out. Still don't no the scope of the work.


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