# Why so many home grown recipes?



## WOODIE1 (Feb 28, 2012)

Ok I am new to wood work and finishing and find the finishing the hardest. I am from a automotive paint background so you would think that would be the easy part.

Why do so many requests here get answered with a 5 part recipe instead of say a single base and single protection coat? Some of the products are water, oil, etc based and are all mixed and applied in so many varying ways it is crazy.

How is it that in woodworking there aren't products that give professional furniture quality without all the secret mixing and recipes?

I am doing a piece of pine and after shellac, wipe on stain, wipe gel, etc, etc There just has to be an easier way???


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

Welcome to woodworking. 
Some of the more attractive finishes have more than 14 different coats and processes.

Unless you are doing a natural finish (Sealer plus Top coat), or a basic finish (stain, seal, topcoat), it only gets more complicateder and complicateder. (My best Alice in Wonderland impression)

There's distressing, glazing, sand throughs, crackling, gilding and on and on and on.

I come from an Aerospace background-Believe me when I say it isn't rocket science. 
Rocket science is FAR EASIER!

And, oh yeh… best of luck to you. :-D


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

thats easy. If you want a professional industrial finish, alls you have to do is buy a professional automotive positive pressure spray booth, add air make up, a combustion suppression system, buy the filters, then add to that a compressor that can supply of air of at least 21 cfm, add to that a dehumidification system, then get a HVLP air assisted fluid delivery system, then the air hoses, then spray guns, perhaps a pressure pot or 2, a cup gun, then spend another small fortune on thinners, lacquers, catalysts, cleaners………Then jump all the hurdles of toxic waste, permits,

thus why people find the best properties of various finishes, mix them, apply and are as happy as a lark


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## jdmaher (May 4, 2011)

Well, if you want a painted look, prime and topcoat. You're done.

But, isn't it a bit more complicated, even in automotie paints? Electrostaic applications in high-tech spray booths? Sometimes "baked" on? Primer, color, clear?

For utility pieces, I seal (usually shellac), sand lightly, polyurethane, sand lightly, poly again. That's without spraying.

Wood generally ain't painted. The idea, for me, is to make the grain look as good as possible, then add protection, then add polish. Sometimes it gets complicated to get an open-grained wood figure to "pop", then try not to diminsih that effect with protection coats, then add lustre. It IS more complicated than "cover" with paint.

Or, you could just grab a couple cans of Rustoleum. Of course, then it would LOOK like Rustoleum.


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## ClintSearl (Dec 8, 2011)

There's an easy answer. It's equivalent to Base coat - Clear coat, with an optional base coat of any kind of stain or pigmented finish followed by a clear coat of solvent lacquer. That's all that's needed and applicable to any situation.


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## Martyroc (Feb 1, 2012)

It seems everyone has thier own way of finishing, I am guilty of trying different methods, and mixing my own concotions. Pretty much I have 3 go to finishes, Water based poly, when working with my daughter, Spar urethane when I need it to shine, and Laquer when I need it to shine and I am too impatient to wait to recoat, or I waited too long and I need to get the project done. afterwards, usually just a good butchers wax or beeswax. I recently started with a wipe on poly, and now that I see the results, I started mixing my own. Thats really a cost saver, its easier to mix, Mineral spirits and poly than it is to pay double for it premixed.


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

what a slippery slope we enter, when its liquid


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

Welcome to LumberJocks and wood working Woodie1.

No, there is no easy way. Will shellac prevent blotching of the pine? Good luck on your finish. Maybe practice 
on scrap first.


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## JGM0658 (Aug 16, 2011)

Many of the catalyzed polyurethane finishes are a one step deal, if you want a mirror image finish maybe two steps, spray, sand and spray. The drawbacks are that you have to use the entire amount when you mix it. At the moment I am about to finish aprox 1700 of wood flooring, the finish will be one of these I mention, specially formulated for flooring.

There is a difference between hobby and professional work, even so, many professionals who are doing one of a kind or custom piece (and getting paid accordingly) will go to great pains on the finish. The most beautiful piece of furniture will look like crap if it is not well finished. As you are finding out this is the least enjoyable part of a project yet one of the most (if not the most ) important if you want to have a nice piece.


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

throw the dice and "hope"

for most I suspect it is what they do.

for others

they watch the rest throw the dice

and learn

: ))


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## bondogaposis (Dec 18, 2011)

The number one reason why finishing wood is so complex is because wood is a complex medium. It is not a stable industrial product. It breathes, it moves with every change in humidity, finishes need to be flexible and given the wide variety of uses to which wood objects must endure, very durable or at least renewable.


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## Doss (Mar 14, 2012)

Well, it's actually pretty easy to see why there are so many finish techniques and processes if you think about it.

When you paint a car, it is usually either aluminum or steel. They take paint roughly the same. Plastic takes it almost the same, but sometimes needs a different primer and a few additives to increase the flexibility. Even with paint though, you're using thinking it's just one finish type normally nowadays (maybe all you do is base+clear)(or maybe you just call "painting" one finish type) . Really though, you need to add to that lacquers, metallics, pearls, candies, ChromaFlair variations, matte paint, etc.. Pinstriping? Two-tones? How about wet sanding? This is just painting a surface right?

Now, imagine that you have to deal with an almost endless array of materials to apply a finish to and their different properties (oils/stability/densities/etc.) react different ways to those finishes while trying to balance things like gloss/satin/flat/deep/plastic/polished/natural/stains/variations/etc. and trying to keep things in mind like durability/environment/usage.

You can see why this quickly starts getting out of hand because you're essentially treating each variable as a multiplier for the number of combinations for which it can be applied. Not to mention that certain finishes react to each other and sometimes differently depending on the order you apply them in.

Then, finally, everyone has their favorite finish types. Some guys have had finishes handed down to them and some have stumbled or developed their own. They work and since they do work, they are often shared and repeated.

If you want the easy way, grab a can of polyurethane and just coat everything in it. If that's the look you're going for, it's easy and quick. Same for Danish oil. It's when you're trying to achieve a certain look that you'll start finding the devil is in the details… and there are a lot of details.


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## Bluepine38 (Dec 14, 2009)

I think one way to say it is that we are individuals and like to try things to find out if they work. There are
different woods and finishes and everyone seems to have a favorite. Trying to find a simple solution is
about as easy as getting a group of hunters and shooters to agree on one special caliber and gun that is 
the best. It ain't gonna happen, but we have fun with our own version and wish you the best of luck with
your version.


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## BillWhite (Jul 23, 2007)

Bondo pretty well sums up the "broad brush" (Ha-Ha-Ha) view.
Succinct and well stated my man.
Bill


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## AJLastra (Apr 19, 2012)

Woodie

Welcome to the craft. So many of us simply dont like the finishing process. I'm odd that way. Its one of my favorite things to do. I plan a piece around the finish and for that reason, this is why, for me, finishing can take multiple steps. the first thing I ask myself is, what will this piece be subjected to? what kind of use or abuse? I make reproduction furniture, so I anticipate that people are going to use the piece and not just look at it. As was mentioned, wood moves. sealed or not, wood is going to be effected by heat, cold, and humidity. If you make a piece and want to protect it from wear, you consider certain types of finishes over others. Wood doesnt HAVE to be colored through stain or glaze. you do it because you like the look that a color gives the piece. There are masters out there, the best of the best, at the pinnacle of the trade, like Thos Moser who use only cherry and use no other finish other than hand applied oil/wax mixtures. Master woodworker Frank Klauz rarely uses anything but Waterlox varnish. Sam Maloof made his own finish which is marketed through Rockler but he applied it with his bare hands. Norm Abram of New Yankee Workshop fame used polyurethane on eveything. And there ARE some pieces that MUST be painted if what you are trying to achieve is an accurate historical reproduction because finishers used milk paint a lot.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

I'm a minimalist, four methods depending upon the project:
1) blo. Done
2) tinted danish oil, wetsand, dry, wax or poly
3) turpentine + beeswax, dry, wax
4) shellac, buff, wax

I'm with you. I've got about 10 book from glazing to french polishing. I just can't get into it.


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## WOODIE1 (Feb 28, 2012)

What I have learned in the few projects I have completed is to simply start with a better grade or nicer wood rather then start with a lower cost wood and tray to make it something it isn't with the finish stage.

I am guilty of the HD run and picking through what they have. We all know red oak and pine are the choices. I have checked out THH in San Diego and will make the plunge into some nicer wood to start. The ratings and footage is something I am learning and will try it out on the newest project.

In the end I guess it is a learning curve but I want to use a wood where it is nice enough to need simply a clear type finish. I am not into glossy anything.

Thanks


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## Doss (Mar 14, 2012)

No problem *Woodie*. And yes, having good wood will save you more time than trying to make bad wood good (because it's never going to happen).

The different finishes do affect the color and look of the grain so don't just lock yourself into clear finishes.

Good luck!


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## RussellAP (Feb 21, 2012)

When doing pine I recommend A pre color conditioner, https://charlesneilwoodworking.3dcartstores.com/Charles-Neils-Pre-Color-Conditioner--Blotch-Control_p_47.html 
After this drys sand it with some 300 grit to remove the fibers that lifted and you can pretty much do anything except paint and it will look 100% better. It's great for stains and shellacked finishes.


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

At the end of the day, before you commit your project to its final finish, apply the entire process to a sample piece. If I have a commission project, the sample is written into the contract and I keep a part of it and the client keeps a part of it. (Signatures on both halves too.)

You will eventually find the finishing system that works best for you. 
Keep trying new things and challenge yourself with different types of finishes and techniques. Then, one day, when your new client asks for something bizzare, you will already know relatively about how much effort that request will take and you'll be equipped to discuss the advantages and pitfalls of that choice.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

As you can see by the above answers there's not just one answer to your question it's all variable ,each person has different approaches to finishing and different standards. I think the mixing of several products to make a finish is left over from an old school approach where the only finish you had was one you made yourself. In later days folks had a few more choices, shellac,linseed oil, tung oil ,wax ect. folks found these products good for some projects and not good for others ,so the experimented and came up with their own personal blend and that kind of approach has stuck even into these modern days ,even though there are much more sophisticated products around folks stick with what they know or their father or grandfathers knew. So even though I think mixing a bunch of different things together is a waste of time and a poor product others swear by it and some of them have hit a very high level of success using these kinds of mixtures like Sam Malloof ,Thoms Moser and others.


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## Chrrriiis (May 24, 2012)

Ah well, now how many car/bike finishes still show he metal their sat on? I know your pain though, as if shaping timber isn't enough, the madness never ends. I do love to go all mad scientist now and again though and wonder what uses my cupboards hold.

@bertha - i love how your 4 step process has about 10 steps in it . Tell me, what ratio is your turps to beeswax? Because i can't too


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## davidroberts (Nov 8, 2008)

The funny thing about woodworking - furniture - cabinet making is cutting a reasonable straight accurate miter is the easy part. unless I cut short, which btw ain't so hard to do on occasion, I can sneak up on the fit, and hide a few nagging imperfections along the way. But you typically only get one good shot at finishing. Even if you do a lot of test strips, back and forth, temperature, humidity, etc. When it comes time to lay on the juice, you had better be right. That's why a lot of professional furniture makers send their pieces out to a professional finisher. My mechanic would be the first to tell you he doesn't do body work. Since you have experience with car finishes, you should pick up wood finishing quick.


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## JAAune (Jan 22, 2012)

Finishing can be simple but only if a person is willing to accept the look of certain wood and finish combinations. Wood and metal finishing are entirely different as well. I'm really good with wood but it took awhile for me to figure out how to adapt to finishing metal.

Staining pine? It's hard to stain without blotching. If you want a 1 or 2 step finish with that wood then avoid going after dark colors and stick with a natural finish. Either that or start using a hardwood that's less troublesome to work with.

Cherry and maple are prone to blotching as well. If simple finishing is desired then avoid staining these dark too.

A basic rule is that the darker the stain, the harder it is to make it look good. Natural finishes are the easiest to achieve. If you don't enjoy finishing then stick with natural finishes or find a simple wood species/stain/finish combo that works well and use that all the time.

I'm in the middle of the camp when it comes to finishing. I enjoy the process but don't enjoy dealing with the gloves, respirators and the inevitable cleanup. I also don't enjoy applying dark colors to light woods but in my job I have to do what the customer requests. Lots of people want dark finish on a light wood. Currently I'm doing maple furniture with a medium orange-brown finish (matched to a sample they provided). The maple is horribly prone to blotching so a 6-7 step process is required to get it done right.

I should probably give that blotch control product a try. Shellac works but it won't hurt to see if a different technique is easier. Shellac is easy to get around here so that's why I use it so much.


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## davidroberts (Nov 8, 2008)

JAAune brings up a good point about trying to make light wood dark. I bought a board of holly thinking it would make a good accent trim on a medium dark piece. Holly is just about pure white. I decided the very light holly was not working. Rather than start over with a naturally darker board, I tried to darken the holly, just a bit. I tried about a gazillion different combinations of stains, dyes, oils. It just always looked dirty. It looked "stained", and not in a good way.

When you consider all the variables a finisher takes into acount, i.e. naturally light or dark wood, fine or course grain, open or closed grain, various scales of hardness, quality of sanding or scraping, prone to blotching, age or freshness of finish, temperature, humidity, using wood from different flitches, using different species on the same piece, deadlines, equipment malfunctions, setup, finicky clients….man, how do we get anything finished!


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## bleorgh (Mar 22, 2012)

Hahahahahahaha…. Blow. Done. Toooooo funny. Two thumbs up on that one!


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## Siegel_KenEvil (Aug 18, 2010)

I was so confused until I read "Understanding Wood Finishing" by Bob Flexner. I have a much better understanding of finishes and know that even though there are many products, they can all be broken down into a few categories.

The book starts off by explaining why there is so much misinformation. Even the "experts" don't always know what they are talking about. Their advice is valuable in terms of knowing how to achieve a result but they don't always know what's in the product. For example, I'm using a great product called "oil & urethane topcoat". I was told it's superior because it contains tung oil. The truth is that it's simply a wiping varnish (a thinned down varnish) with no oil. The problem is that if I believed it was a oil/varnish blend and liked the results, I may be tempted to try another companies real oil/varnish blend and end up with different results.

Blah Blah Blah I can go on forever but I highly recommend the book.


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## Doss (Mar 14, 2012)

One more piece of advice on finishing, if you have something in mind before you build a project, try it out first before you start instead of waiting until the project is ready for finish and the finish you wanted to do won't work.

Also, try out finishes on samples of wood you plan on using. Having a few samples pieces of wood with different finishes sitting around your shop is a good way to figure out what works and what does not. After a while, you'll probably start remembering that, but those are good teaching tools.


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## NathanAllen (Oct 16, 2009)

My methods, keep it simple; keep it consistant.

Natural Woods (Oak, Cherry, Walnut, Maple, etc)
1. One part polyurethene, one part Boiled Linseed Oil, one part Mineral Sprits - 4+ coats over 2 weeks followed up by Wax
2. Polymerized pure Tung Oil; 5-6 coats over 3 weeks - followed up by Wax

Blotchy Woods (Pine, Maple)
1. Tinted dyes followed by Shellac
2. 1/2# Shellac followed by water based stain and poly

Easy to Stain Woods (mostly Oak who are we kidding)
1. Oil based stain followed by pre-mixed varnish topcoat


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## rivergirl (Aug 18, 2010)

Bertha-- YOU SOUND LIKE ME.. LOL I have those damn books too- and what a waste of money. Think of the wood we could have purchased instead! hehe


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