# Electrical Question



## TraylorPark (Jan 9, 2014)

I've got an electrical question for those smarter than I. I have what I assume is a break in one of the hot wires that leads to my shop. The wire is 3-3-3 aluminum and directly buried. The run from the main panel in the house to the shop is about 200 feet. Anyway one of the post in the sub panel in the shop doesn't really work at all and when I use things for too long in the shop the breaker in the house main panel trips but not the breaker in the sub panel. My plan for the summer when the ground is drier and I have tucked away some funds is to run new wire to the shop. However, in the mean time I would like to be able to use power tools for longer than 15 min without having to walk back into the house and reset the breaker or risk fire by the breaker getting too hot. My solution, assuming there is a break in one of the hot wires, is to disconnect the broken wire from the main panel and the sub panel. Attach the good hot wire to a single pole 50 amp breaker in the main panel and into the sub panel as it is now. All of my tools are 120v and under 20 amps. The sub panel I have now would allow me to run 2 20 amp lines for plugs plus a 15 amp line for lighting. So my question is: is there any reason why I couldn't run the sub panel with only one hot wire?

Thanks in advance for any insight or knowledge you can pass along.

Zach


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

Not that I know of. If your other hot and your neutral have no continuity between themselves and ground you should be good. And if there is no ground then make sure you land your ground and neutrals together in the panel and pull one when you pull the new wires.

This will work but it's at your own risk. The main problem is not having a ground but I think you can drive 2 ground rods 10' apart, run it to a ground bus, and it would be a start. You have to do it anyway when you pull the new wire.


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## bigblockyeti (Sep 9, 2013)

You would have the potential for pulling a lot of current off one leg which isn't necessarily a bad thing from a safety standpoint, but it's good practice to try to have your loads balanced from both legs.


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## Bluepine38 (Dec 14, 2009)

Check the screws that clamp the wires in the electrical panel on both the main and sub panel. Some times
people forget to coat aluminum wires with an anti-oxidant coating, or forget to tighten the screws properly.
If this is the case, remember to shut the power off before fixing the problem. If this is not the problem, I
guess you will have to wait for summer.


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## bold1 (May 5, 2013)

Before you dig up your yard. Put a load on right at the breaker that's tripping. You might have a breaker that is bad on one leg. Also check that the wires are tight in the breaker. A lot easier to replace that than the wire if that's where the problem is.


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## Fresch (Feb 21, 2013)

Is there any spliced cables?
Did you turn off the power and re tighten the connections at the breakers?
Did you take a voltage reading at the house breaker feeding your shop?
Did you take a voltage reading at the shop breaker and buss?

Splice, could be bad.
Connections on breakers could be loose. Type of wire copper, aluminum ?
House breaker could be bad, ( what brand ).
At shop if feeder is on a breaker could be loose or bad. Check potential on buss and breaker. 
Get back with more info.


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

> Before you dig up your yard. Put a load on right at the breaker that s tripping. You might have a breaker that is bad on one leg. Also check that the wires are tight in the breaker. A lot easier to replace that than the wire if that s where the problem is.
> 
> - bold1


Forgot about that.

If the wire is loose at the breaker it'll heat up and trip. Or kill the breaker. Never hurts to pull an amp reading either to double check. Sounds like the breaker is bad.


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## Tennessee (Jul 8, 2011)

I am where Gus and The Fridge are. The chances of actually losing a leg is low. A connection on the other hand, the chances are high.
1. Bad connection. Aluminum has one of the largest expansion/contraction percentages in electricity, and can walk a screw right away from a breaker.
2. Bad breaker. If you had an unbalanced load over time, you could have lost a breaker.

Somehow, I doubt it is the wire. As a maintenance engineer for over 28 years, you learn that it almost ALWAYS is at the connection, not the run…
One exception - if you have a connection in the run.


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## BoardSMITH (Mar 15, 2012)

Call an electrician and get things done right by a real professional. Trouble shooting from a forum entry is not the best way to solve a problem.


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

Ehh. If you don't have the money this is a great place to start.


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## WhyMe (Feb 15, 2014)

If the feeder is old and is aluminum and direct bury for 200 ft. I'll bet there was a nick in the insulation and the aluminum has has turned to crud. How old is this feeder? It's fine to use the good leg to just get 120V until replaced. You can still use the DP breaker you have just disconnect the bad leg. If the current feeder is only 3 conductors it needs to be replaced with 4 conductors. There needs to be an equipment ground that goes back to the main service panel. The neutral(s) at the sub-panel in the shop need to be isolated from the ground(s).

Also here's a better forum to get electrical info. 
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=30


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

What brand is your main panel?


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## woodworkingdrew (Dec 29, 2013)

If the breaker is tripping that often you know there is a short or something is not wired correctly. There is a reason why electricians make good money to troubleshoot problems. I worked for an electrical contractor for 2 years. Your problem is way to advanced for you to be taking advice from amateurs in this forum. Call a licensed electrician before you either A. Start a fire, or B. Get electrocuted.


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## daddywoofdawg (Feb 1, 2014)

have you checked your outlets and switches? I paid a pro because I was having a similar problem,he could find the problem,then one day I found out the outlet at the beginning of the run was bad I fixed it and been going every since.Moral of the story is it could be a cheap simple fix.Like when I repair a computer,I start at the on button to see if it turns on if no check to see if it's plugged in if yes see if the outlet works,etc.


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## TraylorPark (Jan 9, 2014)

Lots of good advice.

So here is what I did. I checked the breakers for any resistance, the main panel is Siemens by the way, and I found none. So I reconnected the feeder lines to the breaker in the main panel and tightened them good. I don't have a torque screwdriver so I just made them tight. I did the same thing in the sub panel, checked all the breakers and tightened all the connections. I turned the power back on and started taking voltage readings. On the feeder wires coming out of the breaker or right at the breaker I was reading about 140V. Then I went out to the sub panel and took readings on the feeder lines and they were reading about 125V. So then I gave it a good test. I plugged in a bunch of lights to the circuit that normally blows the breaker in about 5 minutes and then I ran the table saw for a bit, then the RAS with the shop vac at the same time for a bit too. Nothing tripped and the breaker in the main panel was not warmed up at all. It was a short test, but very encouraging results.

Thanks for reminding me to keep it simple. I had checked all the breakers when I fist started having the issues, but for some reason never even thought to check the connection.


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## WhyMe (Feb 15, 2014)

> If the breaker is tripping that often you know there is a short or something is not wired correctly. There is a reason why electricians make good money to troubleshoot problems. I worked for an electrical contractor for 2 years. Your problem is way to advanced for you to be *taking advice from amateurs in this forum*. Call a licensed electrician before you either A. Start a fire, or B. Get electrocuted.
> 
> - woodworkingdrew


So what makes you think the advice is just coming from a bunch of amateurs?


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## bold1 (May 5, 2013)

Sounds like you got it. In my experience loose connections or weak breakers are the first thing to check before looking for breaks. Breaks do occur, but usually they don't come and go.


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## bowedcurly (Aug 31, 2013)

I think there is plenty good electrical advice on the JOCKS, just because some peps are afraid to
work with shocky stuff, doesn't mean we all is, 5775


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

If you are reading 140 volts, there is an issue there that definitely needs attention. Hard to say depending on where you are reading it and the quality of meter used. Being a Siemens panel, I would suspect the connection between the panel buss and the breaker is failing. Use extreme caution. I have seen these so bad I was afraid to remove the breaker for fear of blowing up the panel or putting the customer out of service. Might be time to call a pro that is capable of trouble shooting.


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## exelectrician (Oct 3, 2011)

If you have to replace the cable in the summer do your self a favor and spend the extra bucks and put in COPPER wire.
Aluminum is not really a good conductor, has major issues with poor connections and has caused countless fires.


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## TraylorPark (Jan 9, 2014)

I'm not taking too much stock in the reading I was getting on my multi meter since it's pretty old and the connections aren't the best, but it's what I had last night. I'm planning on getting a new one and checking all the readings again. However, Topamax, I will take that into consideration and have someone come give it a look see. I didn't really have any issues getting the breakers out or see any obvious damage or failure. I'm planning on getting a new 200amp meter put in soon since I'm still running on the original 60amp meter (house built in '59) so I'll go over the panel with a fine tooth comb while the power is down anyway.

My plan is to run some new copper in conduit when I have the funds since 3 gauge aluminum won't really carry the load I would like to have in the future for some 240 circuits.

Thanks again for all the input and the concerns. I am well aware of the dangers that go with playing with electricity and the dire consequences, but I also have enough knowledge to know my limitations and the major warning signs.


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## WhyMe (Feb 15, 2014)

> If you have to replace the cable in the summer do your self a favor and spend the extra bucks and put in COPPER wire.
> *Aluminum is not really a good conductor, has major issues with poor connections and has caused countless fires.*
> 
> - exelectrician


Oh boy.. this just such a misleading statement when it comes to using today's aluminum wire for a feeder. Today's aluminum wire is by no comparison the same as the aluminum wire used in the 60's and early 70's. If installed properly it is perfectly fine.

Zach, it's your money, but copper is going to cost you a small fortune. What size amp service are you looking for to the shop?


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

I still have aluminum wiring in my house (built in '68) but all the aluminum wires now run into a join with copper and No-Alox in the wire nut, the so-called "pig-tails". One outlet and one switch had scorch marks, with the aluminum connections. So, I had it fixed when I bought the house 12 years ago. The newer aluminum wire has a higher copper content to combat this problem. Also, aren't all the high tension lines carrying power across the US made of aluminum?


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## PLK (Feb 11, 2014)

> If the breaker is tripping that often you know there is a short or something is not wired correctly. There is a reason why electricians make good money to troubleshoot problems. I worked for an electrical contractor for 2 years. Your problem is way to advanced for you to be *taking advice from amateurs in this forum*. Call a licensed electrician before you either A. Start a fire, or B. Get electrocuted.
> 
> - woodworkingdrew
> 
> ...


This boggles my mind. Drew a few months ago you left this web site because of something similar I said to you.
What gives now? It's OK now for you to give such stern and stiff advice after your sabbatical?

Paul


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## Grandpa (Jan 28, 2011)

My power company suggested I use aluminum for service conductors because it is cheaper. That is their job. I chose to use copper for 245 feet but I knew the cost. It was only about a thousand dollars (gag) and that was 14 years ago. In my area the gophers will gnaw through the conductors if you don't bury them deep enough. I have 2 different friends that had this happen to them. The recommend 3 feet minimum. I also used PVC conduit to prevent this.


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## 1371Marine (Sep 23, 2014)

> If the feeder is old and is aluminum and direct bury for 200 ft. I ll bet there was a nick in the insulation and the aluminum has has turned to crud. How old is this feeder? It s fine to use the good leg to just get 120V until replaced. You can still use the DP breaker you have just disconnect the bad leg. If the current feeder is only 3 conductors it needs to be replaced with 4 conductors. There needs to be an equipment ground that goes back to the main service panel. The neutral(s) at the sub-panel in the shop need to be isolated from the ground(s).
> 
> Also here s a better forum to get electrical info.
> http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=30
> ...


Agree with WhyMe on this. When I ran mine, I used 2/0 4 conductor (copper) direct burial at about 150' for a 100 amp sub panel off my 200 amp main that is located outside. The cable is actually 3 conductors of 2/0 and a separate bare ground leg for the equipment. I would check the breakers first, especially if they've been in service a while running on aluminum. As for a continuity check, most big box stores carry a wireless transmitter/receiver test kit that'll tell you if it's the supply wire. I'm not sure if they have them that'll give an ohms reading or not, but you can check for a complete break in each leg. Should it happen to be the wire, I would consider running some conduit this time only for serviceability reasons. Hope this helps. Good luck!!

As for the doubters, judges, and scaredy cats… A simple book from the library will tell you the information need to run this panel, trouble shoot it, and service it. When you're done you can pay an electrician a few bucks to check your work and give you the assurance you need if it helps you sleep at night. I have learned to do many things in life by reading, researching, and asking questions of those who are professionals in a certain field. You don't need to know everything in life, you only need to know how and where to find the resources to acquire the information you are looking for. BTW, I am not a professional electrician. Just an ordinary guy who has gotten by pretty well in life being a "Jack of all Trades - Master of None"


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

From someone that has had Masters Licenses in commercial HVAC and has actively worked on power up through 480 3 phase, you could have about 6 different problems.

Test the power across the house breakers from each other and to ground - write them down. Go to the shop breakers and do the same. If the numbers do not match, it is your underground cabling. Do not - ever - try to run 220 motors on 110. Do not - ever - try to flix by bypassing the neutral lead for another. I always make the neutral the same as the hot leads and I use copper.

If you are tripping your house main and not the shop breakers, you have a real balance issue at the house panel or the wiring to the shop (or both) - if you are not proficient in electric, you still need an electrician to balance your loads.

I have seen what electricity can (and will) do. You cannot play with this, do it right or not at all.


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

> If the breaker is tripping that often you know there is a short or something is not wired correctly. There is a reason why electricians make good money to troubleshoot problems. I worked for an electrical contractor for 2 years. Your problem is way to advanced for you to be taking advice from amateurs in this forum. Call a licensed electrician before you either A. Start a fire, or B. Get electrocuted.
> 
> - woodworkingdrew


I've been doing this for 15 years dick.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

> I ve been doing this for 15 years dick.
> - TheFridge


I did 45 years ;-) would have liked to do 50 just to say I'd done it, but knees and hips are not made for that much repetitive activity ;-(


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## bold1 (May 5, 2013)

I believe woodworkingdrew was only replying to a post for advice. As to time at work. I feel I know more now than I did when I started. But I've worked with some who seemed to know all, when they started, and got worse and worse at their work as the years passed. I just helped hook up my 1st LED grids and left the youngest of us show me, how he was taught to install them. As he had more experience with them than I. Years don't always mean more knowledge. God bless you all in this new year.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

> Years don t always mean more knowledge. God bless you all in this new year.
> 
> - bold1


Definitely depends on the individual. I have known a few that definitely had 1 year's experience 20 times at the 20 year mark. One of them was a close personal friend that worked for me for a couple of weeks. He knew it was a short job when I hired him. He was capable of helping another electrician. Some people need close supervision and some don't ;-)


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## Jim Jakosh (Nov 24, 2009)

I have aluminum wire in our house and my friend the electrician came over and tightened the screws on the wires real tight and it solved a similar problem we had years ago. A little looseness causes a high resistance right at the panel.

Glad you got 'er solved!! Happy new year…..........cheers, Jim


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## Fresch (Feb 21, 2013)

I am a Master, with 37yrs.,27 as a Master, still working. Have worked and run work mostly nuclear plants now, comm. and residential in the beginning.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Fresch, You allude to an important point. Doing residential and simple shop wiring is a far cry from what some of us have been involved with. Walking into an unknown situation and getting the plant up and running in a matter of hours instead of days is a valuable talent. When diagnosing a problem that could cost thousands of dollars or even hundred of thousands, it could be very embarrassing to be wrong ;-)

I remember one trouble shooting job I walked away from. They had another fellow there who was clueless. I told the manager I would not be evolved when he blew up a 250 hp DC motor. 2 days later it blew. They called me and told me they had it repaired and re-installed. I warned them the problem was still in the controls and it would go again. They blew it again with all the plant big wigs in attendance. Of course they had a big rhubarb with the rewind shop. I was glad to not be involved. Some times the judgement of knowing when to say "NO" is your most valuable asset. ;-)


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## Fresch (Feb 21, 2013)

I start a $2mil. Upgrade Monday, 8 guys I just hope the paper work is ready.


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## Crank50 (Jan 31, 2014)

My first thought was "loose connection at the breaker" when you described the problem.
Glad you got that corrected. My first home almost burnt up from just that type problem in 1971.

Going forward, you do need to replace that 60 amp box with a 200 amp.
When upgrading, you will have to pull 4 wires to the shop to meet code.

Also, for a 200 ft run you need to have someone size the wire allowing for voltage drop.
Aluminum can work with connectors designed for it, wire sized properly, and with No-Alox grease applied properly to the connection. And, special attention needs to be paid to the proper torque.

My company regularly installs high power feeder circuits installing solar power arrays. We use copper exclusively for all our feeders. Not because it is cheaper, but because we guarantee our work for 20 years and aluminum can't be depended on for maintenance free performance.


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## BurlyBob (Mar 13, 2012)

Listen to what Topamax tells you and do what he says. Nothing beats a life time of experience and he's got it.


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## mickeyg197 (Dec 11, 2014)

Traylor- if you have 140V on one leg at your main panel you could very well have a neutral issue. Assuming the meter you are using is accurate. It is really hard to give you any solid advice without seeing your panel/problem and being able to put a meter on it. This may seem like a weird question but do some of the light bulbs in your home get brighter and then dimmer? This would be indicative of a neutral issue. And before the wise asses chime in, bulbs of the same wattage, not when a motor kicks in, and NOT on a dimmer switch.

As for the aluminum for feeders- it is fine. That's what the power company uses to get the power to your home. Aluminum is not OK for branch circuits.

There are some good ideas and advice in this thread but if you are not sure call someone who is. I am not sure where you live but in my neck o' the woods the power company will check the lines to your house for free. You may also ask your neighbors if they are having issues. I have only seen it once but a bad neutral lug in a transformer fried all of the electrical motors in four homes. Typically they will check the lines to where they terminate in your meter base. Everything from that termination forward, including the meter base, is the homeowner's responsibility.

Good luck. I hope you figure it out soon and most importantly safely.


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

As much as I have done in a whole bunch of industries, with 1st Grade Engineer's licenses, Masters and other licenses, and many years of doing all kinds of things, I still will and have called professionals in to take the lead on some projects.

I do this for safety, I do this because they have current licenses and are bonded, I do this because it is legal, I do this for insurance reasons, and also because I know my limitations. I had a contractor do a heavy up in my daughter's house. It is some thing I could do in my sleep - they pulled the permits, I watched them do the work, and I went with the inspector afterward. My daughter had some serious issues that the heavy up did not address, which I fixed when the contractors were done, all of which was inspected and passed.

When dealing with the loads and voltages of a shop, having an inspector take a look is not a bad thing, if you have an electrical fire and have a shop that the electric was not permitted and inspected, your insurance may not cover the loss.


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