# Why Politics belongs in woodworking forums



## americanwoodworker (Nov 26, 2011)

I have been reading some snippets here and there from LJer's that say politics needs to be banned from this forum. Mainly i assume, because of people like this DKV character. But I want to challenge your thinking on this issue. Politics I believe effects every single aspect of your lives. From your religion, hobbies, food, to the clothes you wear.

Right now some of you who own woodworking businesses will be affected by healthcare…Politics.
Some of you want to open a shop but can't because of regulations…politics.
A woodworking guild in a major city close to me had to stop building toys for less fortunate children because of a new law that was passed by congress…Politics.

Do you see? Politics is very important in forums such as lumberjocks. Don't let people like DKV ruin it and cause you to silence all. After reading posts from you explaining that DKV causes problems I went back and read some of his discussions and I have to agree. He does not encourage a productive thought process. But rather a divisive process. Guess what I will ignore the guy. If he starts a new topic I will not participate. If he responds here I will not reply. Simple.

So I challenge the rest of you. Don't participate in unproductive political debates. Don't respond to divisive comments. But do not turn your head away from politics! Some of you have said if you want to talk politics you will go to a political forum. Good. But I bet you NEVER go to one. You just don't like the subject. Not trying to knock you in any way. I just don't think people know how to honestly discuss politics because they don't understand our political system or our Constitution. Learn it. You will be amazed at how much more productive and civil a debate can be.

First tip… When you are debating and someone calls you a hate monger, a racist, a non-christian or takes the conversation to a moronic level then it's time to leave. No more will be accomplished by that discussion.

Just my two cents. Now I'm off to admire all of your projects!


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

Amen!

Couldn't have said it better!

Thank you very much!

Politics has a huge bearing on our lives… if one ignores it, they will just be sadly surprised when something they used to do, can't be done anymore… Then, they bad-mouth the Government… and if they had known what was going on, they may have been able to change the course of the law(s) that made them unhappy!

I've often wondered WHY people just Didn't Like Politics… You said it very well.

Again… *Thank you very much!*


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## hobby1 (Feb 10, 2012)

americanwoodworker

I have never read such a "mature", kindly spoken, direct to the point, yet very perfect in explanation kind of comment in this forum as what you just wrote.

It was like reading something Godsent, I don't mean to sound…...bla bla bla,,

but this post is the most mature, perfect post on this subject, that only someone with considerably mature, honest downright,knowledgable person with excellent ways of writing things, can do…

I cannot express the excellent job you did in bringing this to light, its beyond words, how you wrote this with extremely* excellent approach*.....

Keep up the great penmenship, as well as your woodworking…

PS:

Please take this as a complement.


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## SCOTSMAN (Aug 1, 2008)

We should be able as mature adults be able to discuss topics which concern us with poitical discussions. I agree very good post.Over here we seem to be able to discuss politics without upsetting each other maybe that's the problem some people not all feel very angry when you say anything against their particular grain of political persuasion.Alistair


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

We were suppose to have been a government of the people, by the people, and for the people. To me this means we were suppose to govern ourselves from the bottom up, very much like a pyramid, with the people at the base. I think that instead we are very much like a people that are now governed from the top down. Why has this come about other than a lack of participation from those who are governed?

helluvawreck aka Charles
http://woodworkingexpo.wordpress.com


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

Charles…

I think it is a function of just being lackadaisyical … and the "Let someone else do it" attitude… taking it for granted…

I used to be somewhat that way until I saw what was happening that I didn't like for our Country… then, I became interested… IMHO, this is the most critical time in our Nations History for everyone to be interested in what's happening and speaking out about it to your elected officials.

If we do not become interested and just let the people at the Top do it, who have figured out how to get their own agenda in force, that is probably not agreeable to you, you will wake-up one day facing changes that you do NOT LIKE… at that time, it will be harder to fix… if ever possible to do so…
*
Communicate with your elected Officials
*


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## dkirtley (Mar 11, 2010)

Joe,

I think you are wrong. I think the biggest problem is that both the parties in place have locked out everyone else with the committee system. Nobody we elect can do anything unless they bow down to the party leaderships. We don't dare remove incumbents once they get on powerful committees. Add to that, once elected, they only people they are interested in listening to are the people with the deep pockets to fund their next election.

Both parties put on the big show of pointing fingers and calling each other names to make it look like they are doing something and then just go back to the country club and laugh at all of us for being fools.

The difference between the leadership of the Republicans and Democrats is indistinguishable. I think George Orwell would be amazed by the accuracy of his predictions.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

OK David,

If one does not care… and just gives up because they think it's impossible to make difference, & DO NOTHING instead… is part of the problem.

That type of thinking is exactly what is wrong today… and I think we can turn it around if we stick to it…

If you don't think that way, sorry… Good Luck.


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## americanwoodworker (Nov 26, 2011)

I am glad to see I have made myself clear. I appreciate your kind responses.

Joe
I believe you are correct. We have put our elected leaders on auto pilot. Just believing what they say and not watching what they do. Now it has become what will YOU do for ME. Our school curriculum is now based on an agenda rather that the truth. Our children are coming out of school without an understanding of history. They have never read the Constitution or the bill of rights. They have never read diary's from our founding fathers and mothers.

Most don't know that there is no "separation of church and state" in our constitution. Yet they believe it, because they are told it's there so they take their word for it. It's hard to believe that at one time in our history people actually carried the Constitution around and brought it out during debates with their peers in order to provide evidence for their stance.

Right and left are the same anymore and that's what we need to understand. We need to understand it's all about freedom now. It amazes me that the Proponents of the healthcare law never stop to ask why their leaders are exempt from what is said to be such a great piece of legislation. That, among other things scares me. Nobody wants to be left out of something thats good. That is human nature.

Thank you for posting the link to congress.org!


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## dkirtley (Mar 11, 2010)

The Tea Party (which originally was non-partisan) got taken over by the far right and absorbed into the Republicans, the Occupy Movement on the left has basically fizzled by stupidly trying to get things changed by martyrdom rather than building a real organization. The Libertarians have made no headway in many years other than to amuse people. The only positive thing that happened a few years ago was when the Congressional Freshmen joined forces but that went nowhere.

Probably the only thing that can push them out is total fiscal collapse. Well, at least the way things are going, it won't take too long. I sure don't see anything changing except for the worse on either side of the aisle.


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

Vote!


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

" It amazes me that the Proponents of the healthcare law never stop to ask why their leaders are exempt from what is said to be such a great piece of legislation. That, among other things scares me. Nobody wants to be left out of something thats good. That is human nature."

You are very perceptive Americanwoodworker.


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## americanwoodworker (Nov 26, 2011)

David,

I believe the only reason why we have the same ol' same ol' is because we are not informed. People hold office for so long because it's more about name recognition than qualifications. Also, because people do not vote. Look at many of the elections the past several years. Barney frank for one, He has not had to really go out and earn votes because he has been in so long and people just didn't care. Then during his last election he came very close to losing it because more people came out to vote. Barney had to actually campaign again.

Now let me come back to one important thing. The Constitution. If people read the constitution for what it says, then they would understand that in reality the States are more powerful then the federal Government. Start at home and vote in the right people. A good friend of mine now serves in office here. I flat out told him that if he ever decides to start doing things in order to maintain power I would vote against him. They must stay true to morals. He does stuff that I do not agree with sometimes but that is natural. There is no perfect candidate. He and his wife sit around while our kids play together and we have have debates and discuss issues. I learn alot from him and he from me. He tells people that they must call him if they have issues so he can research them and discuss them with his peers. That is what you want. Start at home.

Now they have split up our districts and will have a new rep. soon. I have decided the main issues that concern me the most now is healthcare, taxes and spending. What are his views and why? What are his Plans for those subjects? If he gives me talking points and not what I feel are his true words, meaning it sounds like he is reading from a script or anxious to leave and not discuss it, then I will not vote for him. Remember if you feel you have false choices then run for local government yourself. My wife suggested it to me just yesterday.


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## TedW (May 6, 2012)

I agree that the Non-shop Talk forum should be open to politics, religion, and all other matters of a non-shop nature. However, I don't feel it should be open to anybody who signs up as a member. They should earn the right to participate in the Non-shop Talk forum, by being an ACTIVE part of this WOODWORKING community. There are some people who clearly intend nothing more than to stir up trouble, and they should not be allowed to do that. This forum needs at least one active moderator to keep things in order around here. ShipWreck did a pretty good job at proving that point (thanks ShipWreck, hope you don't get booted).


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

AWW youve set forth a good tone on this post not tipping one side or another so kudos for that. Im going to throw my take at it and up front ill let you know im not a politics guy.

My feeling for a long time is that we are victims of the media. I beleive that we are never never given unbiased news. Fox news tips to one side, ABC to the other, and there is a very divisive split among all of our major media outlets. The ability to obtain unbiased news forces us to typically follow those media outlets we most closely agree with. The problem is, that it is all propoganda and filled with agendas (my feelings here).

Being a person who doesnt much read into politics i could not tell you where i could find a news source where i could read cold hard facts. If there was, and this stuff wasnt written by lawyers and people with such twisted tongues, i may be compelled to delve into such information. I dont have the time unfortunately to read into the laws being passed, listen to each side of the arguement, and make my own educated decision. Im sure most people would agree that this is their situation as well. Therefore, we believe what we hear from the like minded, never giving the other side of thought a chance.

This inability to spend the time properly informing and educating ourselves only fuels the fire of politics. Like you said, politics effects every one of us, from just about every angle. This feeling of being controlled, regulated, over taxed, and let down bothers people. It down right pisses people off. Mad to the point they become fanatical. Uninformed fanatics is what this has lead to. Kind of scary stuff as far as im concerned.

Like i said i cant sit here and argue about the new healthcare system because i know aboslutely very little about it. Maybe one day ill sit down and read 600,00 pages or whatever the hell it is but honestly, i doubt it. I very rarely get involved in these kinda topics but those are my thought and feelings, take it as you will.


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## americanwoodworker (Nov 26, 2011)

Ted,

It would be hard to be a moderator of politics in my opinion. How would you know when you should delete something without your views controlling your decision? That's why I feel it would be your responsibility to not participate in a mindless discussion. If someone makes a racial discussion like DKV did a little while ago I just skipped to the next subject. I don't need to kill off more brain cells. That happens every year as you age. Why supercharge it?

Chris,

You make a valid point. You almost have to have passed the bar examination to understand these laws. Luckily that's not so with the Constitution. A 6th grader can read it. If it's not written in the constitution the FEDERAL Government can not do it. Your STATE can as all powers not listed are reserved to the STATES. I do find it helpful to watch the talking heads debate things on television and radio because it's their job and they have money for lawyers to explain it. When they bring something up as in the Healthcare I look it up to see if it is true. Problem is you have to listen to both sides of the argument and take what you learn from them and do your own research. By research make sure it says what they claim it says. Let others point out what they feel is relevant to their sides of the argument and then form your own opinion. Then debate it with others on forums like this. BUT AVOID THOSE THAT LIKE TO POST IDIOTIC PICTURES OF OBAMAS FACE ON CLOWNS OR CALL PEOPLE NAMES. It accomplishes nothing. But Chris, you have to make time. Might I recommend a book to you? It is called the 5000 year leap by W. Cleon Skousen. It is EXTREMELY easy to read and it is politically neutral. Helps you understand the founders vision and how they came about forming this country. One of my Favorites of all time.

So far have you guys seen how this has been civil? It is productive and I appreciate it.


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

I guess im trying to stand in as the representative of those who dont really participate. I cant listen to or watch those guys and gals talk in the government. Call it a short attention span or a lack of will, theyre painful to listen to. 
Im in the group of people who doesnt trust or believe what any of em say. Its all a twisted web of whos lobbying for who, whos paying for this, what side this union is on and so forth. It hate it honestly. The way i see it is that i didnt come from money, probably wont run into money, but what i will do is work my ass off for me and my family. The fat cats can do what they want, tax me more and squeeze my hard earned dollar a bit harder, im gonna keep doin what i do. Chopping wood so to speak. Gets colder .. chop more wood, need lumber … chop more wood. I just wish that our government officials would have to chop wood just once. They simply make everyone else work a little harder to keep up with their lifestyle and spending.


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## americanwoodworker (Nov 26, 2011)

I understand my friend. But to put it into it's simplest form if it is not in the Constitution they cannot do it. The constitution will take you about 30 min. to read. Go to nccs.net and read the constitution for free. Just understand that one thing.

And know this…You can't out earn congress.


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

I'm so sick and tired of the two parties bantying back and forth I've started watching Sesame Street. It's the same old smoke and mirrors out of the same old people. All the two parties bring to the table are "he said,she said" type propaganda.
I feel the American people are also getting tired of this crap and will get out and vote(I hope so). I know there are ones that will chastise me but, I will not vote for any incumbent in the future elections. I don't care if it's for dog catcher.
Whatever *a citizen of the United States* feels, they need to get out and vote. Otherwise they have nothing to complain about if things aren't going their way.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

The Constitution gives the federal government something like 17 responsibilities more or less; whatever is not specifically mentioned belonging to the Feds belongs to *the people* or to the states. The people can control their states a whole lot easier than they can control the federal government.

helluvawreck aka Charles
http://woodworkingexpo.wordpress.com


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## americanwoodworker (Nov 26, 2011)

Charles you are the man!


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

Yes Charles. And for people to control the federal government, they have to get out and vote.


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## Magnum (Feb 5, 2010)

*VERY NICE POST Gentleman.* I don't take part in discussions that have to do with American Politics. Bacause I'm Canadian. BUT! I can certainly learn more by Reading PLEASANT Posts like this one.

*GOOD On You ALL!!*

Rick


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

I can relate to Chrisstef.
The political environment here is like a circus and one the media feeds to earn revenue.
Someone once said to me, actual News is pretty boring, so it is marketed and enhanced to gain customers. Extreme versions of this can be found in store checkout lanes, and the rest of the media is one short step behind.
For unbiased news, one should try BBC World News - Just the Facts, man.

I don't mind political conversations here, but I really can't stand an atmosphere likened to a forced political conversion "Clash of the Titans" scenario.

The dilemma for many however remains, What can I do with this precious vote of mine that will make a difference? The answer I see is Absolutely Nothing. I, like many others have lost faith in our political parties and the governments they form. Is there an alternative to them?, No. Should I vote for the lesser of 2 evils?
Every local, State and national representative has been elected by money, funded to side with the provider(s). The large mass of "common folks" are not really represented when representatives are elected, they just vote the party line or not at all.
I wish I knew who to vote for that will make my life better and all those common folks too. I think Universal Healthcare would not only be good for all citizens, but it would also bring the US into the developed world where this coverage is a citizen's right. I believe 100 million $ was just raised to oppose this because Companies are making huge profits and don't want it to stop. You can understand this, but does it give everyone access?
You can hear chanting about needing the money for development etc., but is anyone foolish enough to believe that the US is the only country that develops drugs or medical equipment? If anyone has had a CT or other scan done recently, you'll find the scanners likely to be Seimans (German) or Pilips (Dutch), and that medicine you take, check out what nationality the drug company is. Makes you think?

Enough of this talk, it is depressing.
If anything we need a third party made up of representatives elected by "We the People" and not "We the bankers, corporations and insurance companies"


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## bhack (Mar 19, 2008)

Politics should be discussed in this type of forum. Discussions by the "common man" brings out the true feelings, not the beliefs of the politicians. I have noticed in this discussion more people have expressed their personal beliefs rather than the talking points of the political parties.

I do not like the intrusion of any government into my private life. The governments have started telling me what size of soft drink I can buy, that I will buy insurance or else, etc… Maintain a defense and infrastructure and I will worry about my own health.

When the elected positions became a profession and not a duty the deterioration began. I will not vote for any incumbent this election as my voice against the professionals. It will not solve the problem but I will speak.

As an aside get rid of all entitlements. Let me decide who needs my charity. Don't pretend you (the government) know better than I.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Just one thing I need to clear up from Bhack's post.
*Social Security is not an entitlement or charity*
For many years I, like others, paid into a government sponsored insurance plan which was guaranteed to assist me in my retirement. None of us had the opportunity to opt out, our premiums were imposed deductions from our wages.
Frankly I am sick and tired of people talking about SS as a charity and charitable entitlement because it is nothing of the sort. What needs to happen with social security is that it should only get paid to those who paid the premiums for it. If you insure your car, house or life, you wouldn't expect the guy down the road living with his parents to receive the payment settlement, would you?


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

Glad you said that Roger, I was getting ready to.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Who said: "Politicians are like a child's diaper, both need to be changed, and for the same reason"????

Another one: " While I may dislike whatever you may have to say on a subject, I will defend to the death your right to say it"

Anyone???


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

Who said: "Politicians are like a child's diaper, both need to be changed, and for the same reason"????

I think it was Samuel Clemens, aka Mark Twain.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Bandit -
Quote 1 is Mark Twain

#2 is Voltaire

Rex - unfortunately Social Security is indeed an entitlement.
It was proposed as an "insurance policy" however in the Supreme Court it was Challenged EXACTLY like Obamacare - and was upheld as simply a TAX - otherwise they could not FORCE participation.

While we pay in and SHOULD get back at the level we contributed - e.g. the benefit is calculated based on contribution level up to a cap - that can be changed at any time.
The latest idea in congress is to means test it. So IF you have a decent 401K and have saved througout your life - our omnipotent congressional comittee will decide that you do not NEED the money as much as group X.

I agree with Roger and Howie that it was not ESTABLISHED to be that way. But in fact that is what we have today. They keep expanding - Social Security Disability, and Suplemental Security Income - which one can get without EVER contributing on red cent to the program! That operating model is definitely not a defined benefit insurance policy.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

It's refreshing to know that I am not alone.
So I suppose if SS is an *entitlement* , then it must be something we are entitled to for paying the premiums and receiving at retirement, the monthly monetary amounts as listed in our SS notifications prior to retirement.
Jus as if you pay an insurance premium, then you are* entitled* to receive compensation up to the $ mount insured.
As far as healthcare goes, personally I believe every citizen should have automatic coverage funded by a tax. It is not so frightening as you are led to believe. Just about every country in the developed world has a Universal Healthcare system covering their citizens as well as private healthcare insurance for those who want private healthcare. Holland has the best systems, followed by Germany, France …....all the Scandinavian countries, as well as The UK, Canada and even Singapore. Believe me, Europeans view the *lack of health care for all in the US as a DISGRACE*
I don't think Obamacare is the answer, a start maybe, but it still puts insurance companies, corporations and drug companies in charge, and on the other hand, the opposition just wants to keep the status quo.
As the years go by, everything changes, and it is long overdue to update everything, including the Founding Fathers notions of things that mattered in their time, yes some of it is basic and still relevant.

We need to change a lot of things that reflect life and circumstances today.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

I agree…

Social Security was NOT intended to be an entitlement… I paid for it and I expect to get something from it!

If someone has NOT bought into it, they should NOT get anything from it!.

It is NOT a Charity… It is NOT an Entitlement!

The Government has STOLEN the Social Security program because they could not stand to see all that money just "going to waste"... they wanted to get their hands on it… for BETTER uses… so they STOLE it… pure & simple!

The absolute FRAUD in getting money from the SS program would make the normal paying citizen SICK in their stomachs! ... BUT, the Government, with all it's infinite wisdom, knows how to squander money better than we can!


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Here in Maryland a photo ID is required for almost everything EXCEPT voting - go figure. Oh and to get a driver's license or state photo ID, two forms of residency (nothing here about being legal or not) - telephone bill and power bill.

If you have the wrong social security #, no worries, SSA will give you one, now your a US citizen without the paperwork - and SSA will give you a medical card and beneifits on a signature but you must go to the non-english speaking isle only. My daughter watched this happen while she was trying to help a friend get benefits who is a citizen with cerebral palsy (who was denied benefits). The people in the next isle had no papers, no ID and only spoke spanish and they were given $200 a month on a re-charging visa debit card, medical for them and their family, and forwarded to the offices for food stamps and other services - all in spanish. My daughter just happens to be fluent in many languages. AND they tell us there there is no money and deny US citizens their benefits.


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

*On the healthcare issue*

*It amazes me that the Proponents of the healthcare law never stop to ask why their leaders are exempt from what is said to be such a great piece of legislation. That, among other things scares me. Nobody wants to be left out of something thats good. That is human nature.*

Long before the healthcare law was even on their minds they were covered by their own plan. I was always questioning why they did not extend their coverage to include the entire U.S.!
*They are and have been covered by a plan that is probably the best in the world …. and obviously we pay for it!*
---------------------------------------------------

*On the DKV issue* I agree 100% with americanwoodworker, ignore the post, do not respond! His rhetoric is just that and is not worth the bits to transmit over the internet much less our time!


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## americanwoodworker (Nov 26, 2011)

SOCIAL SECURITY
SS was never intended to be what is today. It indeed has become an entitlement to SOME. Some pay in and get anywhere from 1.5% to a negative return on their money depending on what you read. Others get it for free. Hence an entitlement. Is it Constitutionally legal? In my opinion based on the Constitution as it is written…NO. It should be added as an amendment as another enumerated power that congress can collect taxes for.

HEALTHCARE
*" the opposition just wants to keep the status quo."* This statement is factually wrong. This is a talking point. You can go to the GOP website and read their plans. You can look up speeches done by several GOP members and here them give their ideas. It may not be as far as one wants to go but they have indeed set forth their plan. I dont feel it goes far enough myself. I do not mean far enough as to be intrusive. It does not address illegal aliens going to the E.R. for free which raises costs. It does not address the high tuition costs involved to become a doctor. Things like that.

Now the real question that should be asked is this…
After all we have seen the federal government do to social security do we really want them fully in charge of Health Care?

Perhaps a new thread should be added to further this discussion so it does not get lost in this one?


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Why do supporters of the healthcare law think that the goverment which has bankrupted the healthcare system that ONLY needed to cover seniors….will magically properly manage a cradle to grave program?

The second item is that these government systems do not change nor do they support new ideas. Anyone thinking that the government healthcare system will ever cure AIDS, Cancer, Diabetes or develop new drugs is crazy.

That is the big tradeoff - the Netherlands (holland) is mentioned as best.
Have you heard of the transplants done in Holland? How about that great new artificial heart? Pacemaker? hip or knee joints? NO??? that is because the systems that manage at the top level, simply Dispense healthcare - they don't develop anything new.

Folks love to show that France and the USA have nearly the same life expectancy - but the USA spends much much more money on healthcare - as use that as proof that healthcare in the US is not as good. BALONEY!
I think the fact that both these women have the *same life expectancy *explains why we spend so much in the USA compared to France. The cost of getting that french gal to age 87 is going to be a lot lower, and it has nothing to do with the doctors being better.


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## GregD (Oct 24, 2009)

Getting back to the original topic, why is it that threads on political or religious topics so frequently turn so nasty?


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

DrDirt.
Perhaps it would be a good idea if we investigated how other countries manage to provide healthcare. We never are given any details, just the the opinion that they are no good. Why not look into some and find out which one(s) could be Americanized.? Just putting down something you don't bother to understand makes you a fool.

How far does anyone think Europe is behind the US in all things?, it's not, in fact there are many areas where they are streets ahead, and they are not lacking in medicine innovations either. Artificial insemination, cloning, stem cell research, penicillin, aspirin and many, many, many more drugs, methods and technology were European firsts. Even the first heart transplant in South Africa was done by a Dutchman called Christaan Barnard.
The healthcare system is supposed to dispense healthcare, commercial companies and laboratories develop and manufacture healthcare tools. Even here in the US where the insurance industry almost runs the healthcare provision, I can assure you that it does not develop or manufacture anything related to health care, except of course huge profits.
AS far as France having a healthy population, much can be attributed to their diet, not life prolonging drugs and surgeries.


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## DanLyke (Feb 8, 2007)

I don't often pipe up in political discussions in LumberJocks, in fact I usually avoid them. Like a bad simile. But something about this particular framing caught my eye.

Healthcare largely doesn't have an impact on me, I'm a white collar professional and when I haven't been covered by my insurance or my wife's insurance I've had no problem buying it on the private market. I have non-woodworking concerns about healthcare in the long-term, but that's not woodworking related. Similarly, I can't run a commercial shop out of my private shop, even though I do have a business license for a home based business at this address, and my neighbors appreciate that. Neither of those things really applies to my woodworking.

However:



> A woodworking guild in a major city close to me had to stop building toys for less fortunate children because of a new law that was passed by congress…Politics.


I would absolutely love to have this particular discussion on LumberJocks, and I think it's entirely relevant to LumberJocks. However, in this statement there isn't enough content to even begin to start a conversation. In order to start a discussion on this topic, let alone make any sort of forward progress on it, we need to figure out what a few details are:

1. Which law? I suspect it was the The Consumer Product Safety Improvement Act (CPSIA) of 2008.

Okay, digging a little bit deeper on that we see that the CPSC CPSIA guidelines suggest that there are two possible classes of toy that might impose a burden on manufacturers such as this unnamed group in an unnamed city. Toys built for those 3 years and younger have small parts requirements, and toys built for those 12 years and younger may need to be tested for lead content.

It'd be nice if we knew which woodworking guild and what major city so that we could ask them, but:

2. Was it a problem with the toy design, intended for children 3 years and younger, or was it that the lead testing requirements are onerous?

I don't think that the guidelines for the CPSC's Small Parts Standards (PDF) are onerous or a problem, although I'd be willing to have a conversation with someone who's willing to bring statistics to the table who disagrees, but designs are easy to change, so let's assume that it's the lead testing that's the problem. If we look at CPSIA Guidance for Small Manufacturers ... Table B we see that "Wood" is in the products counted exempted:



> These materials or components can be used (separately or in combination) and sold (provided they have not been treated or altered or undergone any processing that could result in the addition of lead)


So is the problem now with fasteners? With coatings? With glues? Let's dig a little deeper into the CPSIA Guidance for Small Manufacturers...:



> If your products are made for children 12 and under, they will need to be third-party tested if you use paint or a similar surface coating (pdf). Products for children under 3 will need to be tested to the small parts standard (pdf) if you create a product (such as a toy, puzzle or doll) that could break into small pieces when used, dropped or otherwise handled by a child.


If we read through that "paint or a similar surface coating" line up there we see that, yes, we may have a problem with finishes. Personally, I would be tempted to finish the toy with beeswax or food grade mineral oil, keep my receipts, and go straight to the regional papers if the CPSC ever came knocking on my door, although I think you can easily make the argument that neither of those finishes qualify as paint.

There's one other possible issue here, and that's with the non-wood fasteners. Note that the "Table B" mentioned above includes in its list of materials: "Surgical steel and other stainless steel (except stainless steel designated as 303Pb)"

In order to have any sort of discussion on the politics of woodworking around the cited example of toys for less fortunate children, we need to jump straight to some specifcs. I would therefore expect someone attempting to start such a topic to specify:


What exact portion of the woodworking process is being impacted? As you can see above, we're down to specifying brand names on fasteners and coatings. If you can't use stainless steel, why not? If you're not using marked stainless, how do you know that the product doesn't have lead in it (that stuff sneaks in to everything!).
Is this a problem with law (ie: legislative branch decision) or interpretation/application of a regulation (executive branch decision)? If the former, which legislative members (ie: at the Federal level, Senators and Congresspeople) were at least sponsoring the decision. If the latter, which agencies or bureaus are responsible for enforcing the regulation, and what laws they're using as justification for their jurisdiction?
What alternatives are available or not available for the woodworking process in question? Maybe there's something you haven't heard of? Maybe there's a way to work with the manufacturer to do product testing and indemnification at the paint or fastener vendor level?
What are other organizations doing to deal with this? Small toy manufacturers? Charitable groups? Large toy manufacturers?
What legislative or executive changes you'd like to see? Should we amend the CPSIA (2008) to allow vendors of components to certify their products, and provide for an audit trail for components? How do we go about that? Which Senators or Congresscritters do we need to lobby? What organizations might be useful allies? Who are the forces against such a change?

Because without that level of detail you're wasting my time in trying to have a discussion about the politics, and it's just more noise I have to wade through.

Also note that it's possible that there are executive branch decisions being made by bureacurats and government employees that are interpreting law in ways that you may disagree with. Those people are not Barack Obama or George W. Bush. Pressure from the president may change their interpretation of law and cause a new or different regulatory scheme to be put in place, but that decision is not the function of the President of the United States. Similarly, the President may have signed that law, but the content of it is the responsibility of the sponsors that put it forward to the legislative bodies and the committees from which the law came. Bringing a President into a discussion of government intervention in woodworking is probably immediate evidence of ignorance and wasting my time.


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## dkirtley (Mar 11, 2010)

DrDirt:

The obesity problem here vs Europe is simple.

It is not the food. They eat stuff that clogs my arteries just looking at it. We have "Urban Planning" that creates the problem. Few people live where they can walk or ride a bike to get anywhere. No, I am not talking about the exercise walking trails and bike trails. I mean as getting from one place to another. We have stores that are too far to get to by foot. We can't live near our jobs. We are trapped by being forced to using a car to make even the simplest trips. Here where I live, many places don't even have usable sidewalks. You go to France or the Netherlands, just about everyone walks and bicycles. Many of the buildings don't have elevators. You can step out and walk to dinner, the movies, the store, the doctor's office, work, or just out to a park. If it is a long distance, you can hop on public transit to cover the big distances and walk the rest. When I was in Paris, it was about 10 blocks of walking to get anywhere in the city.

Walk 5-6 miles a day and few people are obese.


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

David. the French also consider a meal an event. In France you sit down and eat slowly, if you go out to eat it is probably going to take 3 hours. Here in the US its cram it down as fast as you can and get back to work or facebook.


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## americanwoodworker (Nov 26, 2011)

GregD, 
The reason politics get nasty is for a number of reasons. I believe the main reason is because of the lack of understanding when it comes to the American Constitution. People don't know what it says nor are willing to read it. They just listen to what people say it says. Another main reason is because it turned into a gotcha discussion rather than an educational discussion. And Like one post so far they immediately set a tone which makes people reading it immediately want to go into defense mode. Thats when people need to stop and either try to bring it back to a neutral tone or just ignore them.

Dan lyke, Thank you for your passionate insight. Please understand that I was giving examples only. The subject was not about the woodworking guild. It was about why politics belongs in this forum. You are a woodworker, a human correct? Would you rather go to a political forum where you learn nothing except "I GOTCHA!" Or in a neutral forum where you can learn from people like you. Yes this is a woodworking forum, there are politics that affect woodworking but also you the woodworker on a personal level. If you would like I will kindly give you the website to the guild…www.sunflowerwoodworkers.org. Click on "TOY PROGRAM". They however do not go into detail and I tried to email them last year to find out more but never got a response. If I were to start a subject that was about the guild I am sure all that you have addressed would have been discussed.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

freedom and liberty should be important!!!.......... but they're not really are they?

helluvawreck aka Charles
http://woodworkingexpo.wordpress.com


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## DanLyke (Feb 8, 2007)

americanwoodworker, I think we're in agreement. I'm not sure who all is moderating (though I think I know a few names), but I strongly suspect that if the topic were focused on woodworking and came with the sorts of detail I mentioned, the messages wouldn't get deleted.

But I also think that this thread is a perfect example of why such things get culled: We have a number of vague un-sourced statements about Social Security and federal healthcare policy, and at least one assertion that the Constitution is easy to understand. Two plus centuries of case law (and full-time work for Federal Court judges) suggest that the latter assertion isn't the case.

There are some interesting philosophical underpinnings underneath some of the comments here, about government scope and function, but those aren't woodworking topics, they're philosophical ones. At some point, every discussion is one of philosophy and semantics and… I had those discussions back in my 20s, and I've largely made up my mind and am really only interested now in the pragmatic discussions of "what do we do within the system as it is implemented today". I've been down the Post-Modernism rabbit hole trying to decide what the meaning of "is" is, and don't need to go through that again.

Thus I'm quite happy to have the moderators nuke everything that isn't directly relevant to woodworking. I've read way too much philosophy and law in my life already.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Wow Dbray David, that made me throw up in my mouth a bit.


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

*Roger Clark aka Rex*

You are correct, Europe in *NOT *behind us. In most areas they are way ahead.

When I was working, I sat on a number of U.S. and international standards committees and standards, for the most part, are driven by Europe.

From healthcare to infrastructure to energy we are falling behind at a faster pace than we ever have. Just look at the pictures of Detroit versus Hiroshima (if anyone is interested I will post them).


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*Religious Freedom* is important too… (being threatened with politics)
... even if you do not believe in God!

We are being attacked to change that… and have been under attack for some time now…
*Read THIS...*
it IS political… Obama and his administration, AG Holder, etc. are working hard to do it!

*If they succeed, you will NOT like it no matter what your religion is… *
(except, of course, if you're one of Them)!


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## dkirtley (Mar 11, 2010)

Well, as long as the discussion is civil, I don't mind discussing politics. If the restraint from attacks in this thread is representative, I think it is perfectly fine to have political off topic threads. Maybe this will get people on the right track. Maybe it will devolve to the level of what has gone before. We definitely don't need more of that.

Of course this will not have any real effect on the policies and legislation of our countries (Yes, there are people besides from the U.S. here.) but as has been mentioned before, there are many aspects of politics that have direct impact on woodworking and they do play a part in the decisions we make. Just a refresher: Sawstop, OSHA, EPA, Endangered Species, Product safety, Building Codes, Imports and Exports, Workers rights, Immigration, Taxes, Religious and other tolerances, Education, Intellectual Property. All these and more are related to woodworking and making things in general. We are not just playing out by Walden's Pond or carving out a home in the frontier wilderness.

EDIT:

Well, maybe not. The other not so civilized threads are still going strong.


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

Vote


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## MontanaBob (Jan 19, 2011)

Americanwoodworker…. do you mean the exact phrase (separation of church and state) is not in the constitution?? "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…" I have always thought that this was was the meaning of (separation of church and state). I have often heard people state that this country was founded on Christian principles, which If I read Washington's papers correctly, is not a true statement….
Treaty of Peace and Friendship, Signed at Tripoli November 4, 1796 
(President George Washington appointed diplomats on March 30, 1795, in order to negotiate a treaty with the Barbary powers. The treaty was submitted to the Senate by President John Adams, receiving ratification unanimously from the U.S. Senate on June 7, 1797 and signed by Adams, taking effect as the law of the land on June 10, 1797.)
ARTICLE 11.
As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries…...

The Barbary Treaties 1786-1816

"There exists in society a very special class of persons that I have always referred to as the Believers. These are folks that have chosen to accept a certain religion, philosophy, theory, idea or notion and cling to that belief regardless of any evidence that might, for anyone else, bring it into doubt. They are the ones who encourage and support the fanatics and frauds of any given age. No amount of evidence, no matter how strong, will bring them any enlightenment. They are the sheep that beg to be fleeced and butchered, and who will battle fiercely to preserve their right to be victimized."-James Randi

Okay I'm done now…LOL


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Oldnovice: The problem us American have is that we consider ourselves to be elitists and are pretty arrogant about the way we "see" other countries. I believe this feeling of total superiority stems from the effects of post WW2 when the US was the only country in the war whose mainland remained unscathed. The other countries in that war were all devastated and it took many years for them to recover, while in the meantime the US benefited hugely by exporting and selling just about everything to these decimated countries. I believe that we then got the notion that we were the only pea in the dish. It allowed the US to live lavishly and have the funds to do anything it wanted. Of course this era had to end, as war torn countries climbed back on their feet and became fully functional. Unfortunately the US public never understood that the era of manufacturing and easy goods sales was coming to an end, and to some extent some still don't understand.
We hear volumes about Independence and the founding fathers, but do we really know any actual facts about the lost principles on which our nation was founded? The US declared that it had no territorial claims, and frowned upon other countries who did have them. It is interesting to note that the US invaded Florida and added it, made the Louisiana Purchase adding vast amounts of land, declared war on Canada and invaded it, but was beaten, ousted the Hawaiian Queen and took the territory, Added Guam and the Philippines to our "Colonies" - the things that when our country was established were "written in blood" principles making us different from other countries who added foreign lands and colonies. We choose to ignore real history, especially if it is detrimental to the US. That says a lot about us.
Much care is taken when reporting to leave out or just ignore - "The rest of the Story" (miss you Paul).
The US did not invent everything and more realistically, we stole, purchased, was given or just copied, important inventions which many think are our own. Things like the Jet engine, Nasa's rocket technology, television, first TV service, Radar, the Magnetron, Chobham tank armor, SST aircraft - even road paving - the list goes on and on. We have benefited from inventions by other countries, but we never given credit where credit is due, kinda reminds me of communist doctrine.!
What I am saying is that we do not see the world as it is, we have little respect for other countries, we are in denial and we do things that were not the intention of this "new" nation.

I understand that this post will not be received by all well, so I ask you to go check the facts.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Rex - I think you missed my point -
Many politicians/proponents of single payer healthcare - use the fact that we spend more per capita on healthcare than France - and use that single fact as some indictment that the US medical system is too expensive, and thus a failure.

I think that our medical system is expensive because we are in (on average) wretched condition - and reliant on far more medical intervention.

The problem is our overall Health not the healthcare. Others point out the amount of walking and general cultural differences - they are absolutely correct - but as long as we supersize our drive through meals.. the cost of keeping americans alive will be high. That high cost has nothing to do with whether we have government provided single payer insurance or a private market.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

DrDirt:
I completely understand what you are saying. Yes in Europe people to exercise much more by enjoying walking, including things like shopping and dog walking. The French actually eat a lot of high octane foods swimming in butter, but they have 5 small meals a day and do some walking either for necessity or pleasure. You do not see many obese French people. Another key factor is that Europe is staunchly in favor of whole foods only, thus taking the chemicals and other stuff we have added to our foods which make them hard to digest and make yo obese.
As a little tidbit of information, do you know that the French HC system even has a doctor riding in every ambulance? Makes sense and saves money.

The healthcare issue is indeed a quandary, but personally I would like to see universal coverage, because I see it as a "reward" for being a citizen of the US sworn to defend and support our country. That's just my view, and I don't have all the answers, but think a tax is a viable option. In other countries universal health care is separated from party politics and considered a separate national issue, I think also we should follow that lead to remove party political assaults.

Just my 2c

Have a great day


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## DanKrager (Apr 13, 2012)

I REALLY appreciate the well spoken comments above. 
Having written two books about HIPAA (just Google my name) I can attest that part of the problem we face as sovereign citizens is that so many positions of authority are bureaucratic appointments and assignments by unelected officials. Our elected officials seem to have been so busy with their affairs (mostly in their own interests) that they have built a support system of appointees and extended authority to them inappropriately. The bureaucrats then scramble to assure their own safety and expand their kingdoms etc, etc. So many places in the HIPAA law passed by Congress in 1996 it states "...as the Secretary shall determine." Congress collectively abdicated its purpose and authority. Therefore, the rules that touch us are not laws, but rules with the force of law and put in place for the convenience of the issuer, many of which cannot be contested in a court of law. (You can't file a suit for HIPAA violations…it's in the rules) These are structures that have been building since before Hoobert Heaver (!). We've never questioned them seriously, and like crab grass they are almost impossible to root out so they don't take root somewhere else. 
We like sheep have gone astray without the focus of a purpose bigger than ourselves. Unlike previous generations who had to deal with the Great Depression, world wars, and just the matter of survival, our generation is very self centered, IMHO. The nation rallied behind statesmen leaders of solid character to selflessly accomplish unbelievable things because there was a common focus, missing today. A proper education was treasured because it was useful. Others and their property were held in high regard and respect for each other led to trust in spite of disagreement. Children used to be taught strict high standards by loving parents in a solid home. It was understood inherently that not everyone could be top dog, but they were still respected and loved. All the luxury of time and resources spent on ourselves has turned that to mush and now our whole nation is at risk. It really is a personal matter at the root.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

The whole idea of this Amendment was to prevent the Federal Government from establishing a national church such as the Church of England which would be favored above all others. Many immigrants came over to the colonies to escape the persecution of the Church of England and other churches in Europe and the founders didn't want that to happen here. Basically, the federal government was to stay out of the question of religion altogether when passing laws except in rare situations. However, the states had no such restrictions. In the constitutions of almost all states God is clearly mentioned in a clear manner. I think God is mentioned in all state constitutions actually.

The whole concept is that freedom of religion will always be honored in this nation.

The American government nor the American people were confused at all about what this Amendment meant until the 1950's.

The words "separation of church and state" were taken out of context from a letter written by Thomas Jefferson to a Danbury Baptist Association in Danbury Connecticut. He was answering a previous letter written to him which expressed their concerns about their religious freedom. To reassure them he wrote them back and made clear that they had nothing to worry about. It is clear in this letter and many other actions in Jefferson's life that he knew full well that references about God, prayers, etc. were never to be kicked out of public or government places. This was the view of most of the founders as well and, in fact, it was simply a fact of everyday life in federal, state, and local governments all across America for the first 150 years.

I'm not going to debate this because I don't have time. Besides that I think that only a minor percentage of the people in America today care that much about it either way. For the last 50 years a lot of powerful people have worked hard and spent a lot of money to build this so called "wall of separation". I don't think that it is going anywhere any time soon. In fact, I see all sorts of changes taking place in this country.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Dan Krager:
Right on the money, it is sad too that we do not have any Statesmen to help steer us.

Hellavwreck: I know your time is precious with the business, I just wanted to inject a little reality about the immigrants arriving to escape persecution by the C of E. The persecution was that these sects practiced burning at the stake as part of their beliefs, which the C of E had forbidden. Note that accusing people to be witches and burned at the stake was brought to New England by them. End of fairy tale.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

Roger, your missing the kind of persecution that I am talking about. When a national government has a national church the national church is favored above all of the others and obviously enjoys more privileges than the others. Now, if you want to make something more out of it than that then that is your privilege. That would fall under the clause about freedom of speech. The Salem witch trials were a long time ago. I don't think that that happened across America on a regular basis. Do you? However, what does happen here everyday is that people are free to practice or not practice whatever religion or sect that they want to so long as they do it without harming or infringing on someone else's rights.

helluvawreck
https://woodworkingexpo.wordpress.com


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

Roger, you are correct about much of what you said in post #50. Our founders cautioned us to not to fight any wars that are not of a purely defensive nature.

helluvawreck
https://woodworkingexpo.wordpress.com


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## S4S (Jan 22, 2011)

@* Krager* .Since antiquity, all systems of government require a bureaucracy and could not exist otherwise . Do they delegate and insulate themselves by enacting and supporting rules and laws to protect their spot in the 
Hierarchy ? duh . I really don't know where you are going with that whole 'Tom Brokaw greatest generation crap or that 'now we are so mushy that everything is in jeapardy ' doomsday preper crap . The grass is always greener when you are looking bassakwards ,aint it . This 'ideal ' place you speak of ,in broad strokes, never existed , at least not from what I have seen . Fantasized idealism of the past and fear of impending dystopia seem to go hand in hand . That's been going on since antiquity also .


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Add to that - the Salem Witch Trials were in 1692 - so predating the birth of all of our founding fathers and our Declaration of Independance.

Salem Witch trials were thus a British Atrocity -

These were of course part of the reasoning why the USA did not establish a National Church - so that there would not be an "Official voice of a particular Religion" that carried behind it the full weight of law of the federal government to enforce.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

I would agree with that, completely, DrDirt.

helluvawreck
https://woodworkingexpo.wordpress.com


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*The Dutch have seen the light... and have had the courage to do something about it!*
I received this information from a very trusted friend in New Zealand.
*
 (pertinent post)
*

*Dutch courage! *
The Netherlands, where six per cent of the population is now Muslim, is scrapping multiculturalism:

The Dutch government says it will abandon the long-standing model of multiculturalism that has encouraged Muslim immigrants to create 
a parallel society within the Netherlands.

A new integration bill, which Dutch Interior Minister Piet Hein Donner presented to parliament on June 16, reads:

"The government shares the social dissatisfaction over the multicultural society model and plans to shift priority to the values of the Dutch people. In the new integration system, the values of the Dutch society play a central role. 
With this change, the government steps away from the model of a multicultural society.

The letter continues: 
"A more obligatory integration is justified because the government also demands that from its own citizens.

It is necessary because otherwise the society gradually grows apart and eventually no one feels at home anymore in the Netherlands.

The new integration policy *will place more demands on immigrants. *
For example, immigrants will be required to *learn the Dutch language*, and the government will take a tougher approach to *immigrants who ignore Dutch values or disobey Dutch law*.

The government will also stop offering *special subsidies for Muslim immigrants* because, according to Donner; 
"It is not the government's job to integrate immigrants"

The government will introduce new legislation that *outlaws forced marriages *and will also impose tougher measures against Muslim immigrants who lower their chances of employment by the way they dress.

More specifically, the government *will impose a ban on face-covering, Islamic burqas as of January 1st. 2013*.

Holland has done that whole liberal thing, and realized, it maybe too late, that creating a nation of tribes will kill the nation itself.

*READERS NOTE: *
Muslim immigrants leave their countries of birth because of civil and political unrest "CREATED BY THE VERY NATURE OF THEIR CULTURE."

*Countries like Holland and Australia have an established way of 
life that actually works, so why embrace the unworkable? *

*If Muslims do not wish to accept another culture, the answer is simple; 
"STAY WHERE YOU ARE! " *

This gives a whole new meaning to the term; 'Dutch Courage' 
*Unfortunately, the USA and other countries politicians don't have the courage (YET) to do the same. *
There's a whole lot of truth here!

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
It's nice to see someone is taking appropriate action!


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## S4S (Jan 22, 2011)

This is the very instant where I must take *helluvawreck*'s advice to heart .








~ Johnson


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

Moment, I'm not exactly sure what you are referring to here other than exercising your freedom of speech and you surely did that.

helluvawreck
https://woodworkingexpo.wordpress.com


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## S4S (Jan 22, 2011)

You gave me some advice about anger a while back , remember ? I do . This picture is not about freedom of speech , for me it represents…..restraint . my personal restraint from responding to something that made me angry .


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

*Joe Lyddon*

I am 100% agreement with you!

To paraphrase Paul Harvey *"We have gone from being a melting pot to a boiling pot"! *

Your statement with my alteration;
"If *any* do not wish to accept another culture, the answer is simple; "STAY WHERE YOU ARE! ""

Most people do not realize that I was not born here and that is because *I became an American!*


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

Oh, I got you. Yeah, I remember something along those lines. No, no point in getting angry. So you restrained yourself. Its sort of like blowing off a little steam before you pop a cork I suppose. You know it's sort of like when you see the cartoon characters blow steam out of their ears and nostrils to relieve the pressure. Yeah, I'm sure there are all kinds of techniques along those lines. Well, I hope that it worked.

helluvawreck
https://woodworkingexpo.wordpress.com


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Al - this made me livid but - letting people know what is really going is paramount. This has been gowing on for some time, nothing new - I think it started with Clinton. The approach has been taking the easy way to everything - "make no waves" and the problem goes away?????

Not happening. This does explain a whole lot - this is why the politicians don't look at this as a problem, even the cash flow issue is solved.

Did you see the news release from GE yesterday? They have stopped building the solar panel manufacturing plant in CO because the Chinese are dumping panels into this country and putting all the solar companies out of business - our taxes and their govt. paying for theirs make it cost prohibitive. The answer on Pensylvania Ave - turn us into a socialist country so we can compete.


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## lumberjoe (Mar 30, 2012)

I am going to be uncharacteristically blunt:
This country is going to ********************. We don't DO anything anymore but pander to rich people who off shore our money. We can't even make a god damned board game here anymore. My dad worked for a large toy/game company for 35 years and was laid off last week because they FINALLY got in on the "it's cheaper in China and Walmart will only pay so much" train. We are like 26th in adult literacy, and way down on the list of exporting nations. That is truly pathetic. How did this happen? See below (please note I am generalizing, and I as well as a lot of others here do not fit this mold)

It's because my generation (30 somethings) is a bunch of self-entitled, self important little pussies. We've had everything handed to us. It's getting worse. They don't even keep score at little kids sporting events anymore so there are no winners or "losers". We were taught that everyone is special. That is a lie in itself. If EVERYONE is special, than NO ONE is special.What does that have to do with politics?

No one likes the system, but no one wants to rock the boat and potentially upset their cushy lifestyle. By cushy I mean the fact I was able to buy a NICE tablesaw for 500.00 mass produced in china. That was UNHEARD of 30 years ago. You veterians on here can attest to that. My dad saved up for 4 years to finally buy his first craftsman table saw. I swear he looked at that thing the same way he looked at me and my sister. For today's equivalent of 500$ you didn't get a table saw, you got a skil saw and some hand saws. My generation expects quality to go up and prices to go down. That's it. And it's getting to the point where we don't care about quality, we want cheap and easy to replace when we want to "upgrade". So no one REALLY wants change. Stuff made here with fair wages, good safety practices, benefits, job security, training, etc, *WILL* cost more than stuff made in China with slave labor. We all want more jobs, but god forbid we start paying higher prices for anything, or live within our means instead of blowing up our credit cards.

If my Grandfather who lived through the depression, fought fires for a living, and drove a tank in WWII and was captured by the germans and saw unspeakable things as a POW was still alive, he would smack the crap out of everyone in my generation he ran into.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Truly AMEN, lumberjoe


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

I am sorry but I have to very respectfully disagree with you. It is far more than that. Companies have moved off our shores to stay in business - nothing more than that.

Let me tell you a story - it is very true and illustrates what "fairness" in this country is all about.

If any of you have contracted to the federal government you have seen or experienced this first hand. Under Carter (if I remember correctly) they came up with the 8a program that gave presidence to "Small, socially, and economically disavantaged companies" aka minority owned small businesses. The term was 8 years of having this designation and in short this ment that you could charge 15% more than a non-8a company and be considered as low bid. My main competitor when I had my company was Pulsar Data, an 8a company. As a one or two person company, I actually did over a million in busisness one year, which in my mind, wasn't too bad. Pulsar had built themselves up, being one of the first 8a companies and no wonder, they attracted serious backing by NEC, IBM, HP and the like. IBM even provided their financing - 6 months with no interest. When dealing with the government, this is a serious perk, who, if you are lucky, pays in NET 45 - 60.

It got to a point where HP granted them distributor pricing, 25% below my cost and could still bid 15% over my bids. I could not quote over 10% over my cost in normal bidding from other competition and my financing cost me 12% - I finally decided that I could not offer any of the products that Pulsar sold, greatly reducing my product line because I could not compete AND make a profit. Pulsar was doing 8 billion a year - a small business????

Same thing goes for manufacturing in this country - taxed twice, the first time at around 30%, the second time on dividends, while overseas manufacturing companies are actually given incentives and sometimes a free ride to sell in this country to "compete". Oh, you are correct that it is BS. Just like Obama "fixing" the auto industry - in the government shutting down dealers (that paid GM for the dealership rights), 50 or 60 people in my town lost their jobs when one dealer was shut down - alone. The property, been there since the thirties, was auctioned off a few weeks ago. Now there is economic development for you.

If you want to get people employed, eliminate the corporate taxes altogether that bring manufacturing back to the US - permanantly - (this one year crap is just that - crap). Companies will bring their manufacturing back and hire a whole bunch of people in the process. BUT - manufacturing can be a dirty process, get over it. An active volcano popping off can and has, in one day, cooled the earth to a point where there was no summer the following year. None of our manufacturing has ever done that - regardless of what the eco nuts maintain.

My rant is done, thank you


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## lumberjoe (Mar 30, 2012)

Interesting argument from the other side of the coin. I would think the opposite is true now, especially in IT. My company can respond to an RFP for technology related products and services (mainly Cisco), bid 35 to 40% UNDER reseller cost and still turn a massive profit. That is because we are in bed with a lot of the manufactures and get substantial rebates and discounts. We are not a mom and pop shop, but also not an IBM. We do have a lot of federal government/ DOD projects. Mostly overseas locations due to our extremely large global footprint.

This is going to be a *VERY* unpopular opinion, but I also have a problem with the wage structure here for manufacturing. As I mentioned previously, my father was a Mechanical Engineer for a large toy and board game company. They were paying assembly line workers upward of 48k per year to throw a shrink wrapped pair of dice in a box for 8 hours a day. Seriously, that was their job. I'm sorry but a 4 year old or even a robot could do that. There is no skill involved what so ever. That is the epitome of a minimum wage occupation. The same goes for a lot of manufacturing. Low skilled labor should not be rewarded with consistent, scheduled pay increases based on length of service. 
Again, this goes back to an inflated sense of self worth. If you don't even have a high school diploma or any marketable skills, why on earth would you expect to make 50k a year? This happens all too often and I feel this is also a big reason manufacturing is exported. Take responsibility for YOURSELF. If you don't want a minimum wage job your whole life, get some marketable skills. This does not mean you have to go to college and get a lot of degrees. My cousin is dumb as a box of rocks and admittedly so. He's found he's pretty damned good with a chainsaw. He now owns a fairly successful tree removal service which his wife manages for him. He does very well for himself.

My entire point is we need to stop blaming OTHERS. Take responsibility. Understand what is fair and stop abusing the system. If you have a minimum wage job, stop looking to your union for handouts and increases. Entry level positions are exactly that. No one should be turning them into life long careers; which is what is happening now. Start reading some books, taking some skill enhancement classes at your local community college. Heck, I already had a fantastic career and I went through the automotive program at my local CC for kicks about 12 years ago. I liked working on cars, it was fun for me. I wanted to get a lot better at it, was single, and had nights and weekends free. If I ever get sick of this IT stuff I could easily get my ASC cert and start swinging wrenches.

There is a huge shortage of truck drivers right now. Those guys make pretty good money. Instead of throwing dice in a box, get a CDL. My point is, even in this crappy economy, opportunities exist. No one is going to hand you anything though.

We also need to be prepared for change. Everyone likes the idea, no one wants to do it. As I said, we are all complaisant. It's fine to rant about it on the internet or write letters to your Representatives that do not give one crap about what you have to say, but are you willing to suffer any quality of life changes to make the system better? The answer for 99% of the "99%" is no.

Our ENTIRE Legislative branch (republicans and democrats a like), are NOT public servants. They are entrepreneurs getting filthy rich off the backs of the people they "represent". They are puppets to the big donors. I don't blame a single one of them. That is what the government has turned into, that is the expectation now. It is our fault. You can vote all you want, but it doesn't matter. You are substituting one self service interest for another.


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Joe - connot argue with this. Having family and roots in Youngstown, Ohio, a total union town, you cannot manufacture anything without the unions. They will suck you dry. When I had my company, I could have built a sweat shop but wouldn't - my choice. "Reasonable and common sense" is gone in this country and really needs to come back.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

dbray45 and lumberjoe.
Your posts make good reading and are very informative, thank you.


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

+1 for Rex.

Amen LumberJoe.


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Hey - I was just thinking--maybe our manufacturing was keeping the earth cooler, now that it is gone, we are having global warming. This actually makes sense.

In order to save the earth we need to bring manufacturing back to this country - its for the good of the world, we must do this. Hand this to the EPA!!!

Bring the mills back - we need them


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## lumberjoe (Mar 30, 2012)

A good analogy for politicians today is using sports teams. 
For arguments sake, Republicans are the Yankees and Democrats are the red sox. I am not using any logic with the definitions, just two teams with a huge rivalry. We all think the players are out there for us fans. We think they are winning games to make us happy. Wrong. Do you think if you wrote a letter to Big Papi expressing displeasure in his performance of last nights game he would care, or even read it? Nope.

While technically that IS his job. To win games for the home team fans. That is NOT however how things work. He plays hard not to make you happy, but to make vitamin water happy they dumped millions of dollars in his lap. He works for his sponsors.
The same can be said for politicians. Democrats work for corporations and big donors aligned with popular democratic thinking. Republicans work for corporations and big donors aligned with popular republican thinking. We continue to support our candidate of choice because they are "the home team". We think they will bring the pennant home to our city (making more jobs, bettering the economy etc) when in fact the ONLY thing that care about is keeping Nike happy so their pockets get padded and they will get signed again next year because everyone see's them in commercials. Sometimes that entails bringing a pennant home as well, but that is an afterthought, NOT the overall goal.

The system is completely broken. We are given this false sense of control called voting. You are not voting for Romney or Obama, you are voting for Nike or Reebok - two completely different entities that do not care about you at all.


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

lumberjoe,

IMO, you are preacing to the choir!

As I have said before, our congress should wear NASCAR like jackets to show us who they really represent; the bigger the the sponsorship the bigger the logo. Maybe then we could see where their loyal tis really fall!


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## lumberjoe (Mar 30, 2012)

I don't really think so oldnovice! You get it, a lot of others don't. They think simply voting will change our situation. The only thing it will actually do (as you put it and great analogy) is change the logos on our leaders NASCAR jackets.
Perhaps we should start sewing brand names on the American flag and sell ad space on the side of all national monuments. Maybe that would wake people up when they visit "The White house, sponsored by XXXX"


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

Well, Speaking of the Devil, here it comes to California!!
*
I wonder how they're going to screw it up this time!

*


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

It should not become law!

It surpresses competition!


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

oldy!

We AGREE! ... pinch me!


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

Joe,

I hate to say this, consider yourself pinched. But this is not the first time I have agreed with you.

The other time was on immigrants who want us and U.S. to conform to our culture as to them conform to ours!
I think I can say that because I did it so they can do it!


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

oldy:

Thank you… I needed that… LOL

Welcome to our Country… you did it right…


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

I am not for either party or their candidates but when a candidate tells *outright lies* I doubt his/her credibility!

Caught in another lie


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## MrBaron (Jul 12, 2012)

Hello everyone…..

Well to see you here, would be the great opportunity for we all. Hope fully we will get more information from here.

Thanks…..


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

Oh… When he says he* left* to do the Olympics, *that does NOT mean *that he SOLD OUT all connections to the Company! To me, it could very easily have meant that he terminated ACTIVE Management with them while he was busy with the Olympics… which makes more sense to me…

But, what bothers me more… is *why you're hunting for all the little tidbits that you can.*.. that really tend to serve anymore than a Diversionary Tactic instead of more important issues!

*bottom line:*
SO WHAT…? Makes no difference to the price of tea in China!


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*ObamaCare... Learn... and Stop it...
*


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