# Should There Be A United States of Jesus in America?



## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

The U.S. Constitution requires:
*Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.*

As I post on Lumberjocks I have noticed a vocal few who insist upon throwing THEIR religious practices/comments at others as if those others were less deserving of of their own right to religious freedom (including the right to not believe) or even their own right to free speech.

*With THAT in mind, should ANY individual have the right to hurl religious dogma upon others here on LJs OR require their government to adhere to any specific selective/selected dogma?*

For reference, MY own belief system mirrors this gentleman's opinion regarding religion and governance.


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## TCCcabinetmaker (Dec 14, 2011)

You really are aimed and bent towards instegating fights aren't you.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Stay on topic Mr 247 posts in 15days.


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## dakremer (Dec 8, 2009)

*......noticed a vocal few who insist upon throwing THEIR religious practices/comments at others as if those others were less deserving of of their own right to religious freedom (including the right to not believe) or even their own right to free speech.*

While some are voicing their opinions (as are you), I doubt you have any authority to say that those individuals think the others are less deserving of an opinion. Because someone gives their opinion (that differs from yours) doesn't mean they dont think you deserve to have an opinion. You are no better - you throw your opinions at everyone as well. I've never seen someone give an opinion and FORBID someone else from giving their opinion. Your statement makes no sense, and has no bearing on anything relevant. Just another chance for you to strike up an argument/drama. Its funny - you say you are completely against politics and religion on LJS because of all the drama it creates and how it "it takes away from the woodworking." Yet, you participate in them more than anyone. And now ur on this kick where you are trying to start all of these threads to cause problems on LJs to prove a point…..or to get politics/religion finally kicked off LJs. Seems pretty backwards. Seems like its not the religious/political threads that are the problem - its people like you. You can respond how ever you wish. I will not open this thread again.


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## pierce85 (May 21, 2011)

No, TCCcabinetmaker, I think Mike would much rather NOT engage in any political or religious fighting here on LJ. But given the content and tenor of the vocal right-wing members of LJ and their hijacking of the Non-shop Talk forum for their political and religious garbage, Mike has decided to engage this hijacking in protest. Until the political and religious crap is gone from LJ, I fully support Mike's efforts.

LJ has become uglier because of the right-wing politicking that has escalated since the Non-shop Talk forum was instituted. Sometimes fighting fire with fire is necessary. I understand what Mike is doing and I hope it works, i.e., the complete ban on political and religious topics.

Yeah, not a popular view but so what.

By the way, great video Mike! I hadn't seen that one before. Why do the British always understand Americans better than Americans?


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Doug,
I am talking about *Freedom OF Religion/Relious Beliefs" *AND THAT MEANS FREEDOM FROM HAVING SOMEONE THROW THEIR DOGMA DOWN YOUR/MY THROAT!*

If I said I'll come by and plant a burning cross in your yard for you so that YOU will convert, YOU would find that abusive and an insult.

If you say "I'll Pray For You" to an agnostic or atheist YOU should get the SAME feeling of insult and abuse! That is like telling the person that he IS IN HELL (a purported bad place where christians believe everyone but they themselves live) and only YOU are not are NOT in this Hell.

How can you say this is not an abuse of the 1st Amendment by these so-called christians?


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## JollyGreen67 (Nov 1, 2010)

HALLEEE - LOOOO - YAAAHH !


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## wpreman (Mar 27, 2008)

Good grief, how pathetic! Get back in the shop.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

*BILL! YOU have NO projects at all! How pathetic AND hypocritical of you to criticize me when you have nothing!*

I guess YOU were not paying attention Bill!

At least This month in MY shop I have done the following:

*Click on images for LINK*




CURRENT PROJECT IN PROCESS:


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## TCCcabinetmaker (Dec 14, 2011)

Mike you really do need to learn how to talk to people.

Freedom of speech is a legal right, however in a privately run establishment, you choose to obey the rules when you walk in the door. Same with a privately run forum, you choose to obey the rules when you join the forum. I doubt calling people hypocrites, cussing every third post, trying to stir up fights with posts deliberately aimed at causing fights is obeying even the spirit of the rules.

At least the right wing people you keep referring to offer to not block as long as you speak in a respectful manner. I've yet to see a truely respectful post out of HorizontalMike.


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## tomd (Jan 29, 2008)

No matter what it is I'm against it.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Sorry Mike I just don't get it. If I say I believe in God and you say you don't . I don't understand why what others believe is so upsetting to you. I believe your entitled to believe what you want just the same as I am.


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## StumpyNubs (Sep 25, 2010)

After days of arguing, er… I mean having a spirited discussion… how about a 10 minute break for some light humor and something about woodworking?






Sorry, I couldn't help it. I'm a natural born peacemaker, and nothing makes peace like a good ol' woodworking video!


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

The video guy is quite the blow- hard. Now I have a better sense as to how much self-righteous blather can fit in a single intro. And this guy "understands" Americans? Laughable.

Yes, dogma-hurl away. It puts people in context so I can Ignore with greater clarity.


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## pierce85 (May 21, 2011)

I'm sorry to hear that, Smitty. Even if we disagree ideologically, I do appreciate your woodworking skills and expertise, and your willingness to help other woodworkers. You were very generous and helpful with my workbench question a few days ago and that was much appreciated.

I'm still a beginner in all of this, but someday I hope to have sufficient skills and knowledge to perhaps return the favor and provide a helpful suggestion for a woodworking question or problem you might have. Because of your generosity toward me, I would never think of ignoring you.

Honestly, I hope our ideological differences won't put wedge between us and our mutual love for woodworking. You're a good guy.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

Pierce- I'll help anytime, no ill will whatsoever! Glad I was able to contribute. And my focus will be going back to woodworking. There's precious little idea exchange possible on the off-topic forum anymore; too much 'noise.' see you around.


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## IrreverentJack (Aug 13, 2010)

*I don't understand why what others believe is so upsetting to you. I believe your entitled to believe what you want just the same as I am..*

Jim, I'll use some 'hypotheticals' to illuminate. Say the main religion in the country believed a teapot shaped spacecraft was on the far side of moon and a great noodle like creature inside was going to end hunger on earth forever. Mike stands up and says, in his very blunt way, "It's not there and I have pictures to prove it", "The story is made up. This is who wrote it and when.", "Eating that much pasta will cause worldwide digestive problems!" etc.. Now most may say "I believe you're entitled to believe what you want just the same as I am. And I kinda like pasta." Others respond by saying "Mike is disrespecting HIS Noodleyness", "Mike is trying to blow up our Teapot!", "Mike must just be hungry. Maybe if we throw enough noodles at him, he will feel better and shut up.", "Mike is bad/nasty/evil, isn't worthy of noodle and must be attacked." *IMO* - Mike isn't upset by what others believe. Mike just doesn't like the limp noodles prodding at him.

Jim, clearly you don't feel threatened by Mikes views, but you should notice that others do. -Jack


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## pierce85 (May 21, 2011)

Thank you, Smitty! Back to what LJ is really all about…


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## Magnum (Feb 5, 2010)

Sorry Mike. I couldn't resist it. *"The Devil Made Me Do It!" * (Flip Wilson)

*NO!* I don't believe that Anyone should have the Right to shove Anything down Anyones Throat! Be they Religous/ Non-Religous, Political or Otherwise.

Somewhere along the line* "Political Correctness"* and *"Minority RIGHTS"* might also fit. I'm *SICK and TIRED *of them also.

*With Respect: Rick*

*EDIT:* In MY Personal Opinion *ONLY!! * Politics And Religion should be BANNED from this Site In TOTALITY!!


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

Jeez ! Where's Madeline Murray O'Hair when we really need her ? Oh, yeah…. Hell.


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Those are some nice looking jigs Mike..I really like the miter sled…


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## HamS (Nov 10, 2011)

Was just reading this thread and when I went back there was a momentary DNS error and access to LJ was broken. I wondered if someone had SPOKEN.


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## Magnum (Feb 5, 2010)

Okay. I'll Bite. Why is there a *NEW Profile *for you, Same Name, started 14 Hours ago as in the 1,2,3,4,5 above, that shows only this Post?

I was doing some *"Greetings"* , (Actually I was Lookin to WHACK any Spammers) when I came across it.

Guess I'm just not "UP" on things in here. Does it Prove something? *(NO Disrespect Intended)*

Just Curious, and I've got at least 5 Lives left. ..LOL…

*HamS: *I've gotten the same thing 3 times now. Blew me right off the Site once. Still SLOW as H! Always (1 item remaining) in lower left corner, Wheel NEVER stops Spinning Above beside the http://


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## greasemonkeyredneck (Aug 14, 2010)

You know Mike, I seldom get involved in a lot of these type discussions. I try my best to stay out of it. I just have always been of the belief that three things one cannot have an honest discussion on without it eventually turning ugly is politics, religion, and sex. However, I sometimes just cannot help myself. I know what made you start this topic. So, here goes.
I believe that we have a relgious freedom in this country. This freedom includes freedom to choose a religion, even if choice is to not practice any religion at all. I make it known that I am a firm believer in God. I have no problem discussing that matter with anyone who wants to listen. However, I do not have the right to preach that matter to anyone who does not want to listen to it. 
I think this matter also gets at a misconception of freedom or religion, as well as freedom of speech.
It is my belief that freedom of religion also has an unwritten part of it that includes freedom FROM religion. In other words, one is not compelled to listen or believe in any God or religion. They are free to believe or not to believe in whatever thay choose. 
Now to the freedom of speech issue. Just like religion, one has a freedom FROM speech. In other words, I have a right to speak whatever I choose to speak about, within reason. As long as my speech does not interfere with another's rights, that is called freedom of speech. When I start talking about something that interferes with someone else's rights though, remember about freedom FROM religion (?), then I have overstepped my bounds of my freedom of speech rights. 
So, I guess what I am saying is, in my long winded kind of way, is that no, noone hasthe right to shove any religion down anyone else's throats. I have a right to practice my religion as I see fit. Another guy has a right to worship his favorite brand of beer if that is what he chooses to do. I cannot compell him to see things my way. He cannot compell me to bow down to his budweiser god.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Jack 
I don't have to feel threatened by what Mike feels because I have my own truth. So what's the point in telling Mike he's wrong? He has his own reality we could argue for years and never change each others mind. If you want to draw your sword and do battle go for it. Sorry but I find your analogy beyond bizarre .


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## greasemonkeyredneck (Aug 14, 2010)

I just went and watched the video you posted in the original post. I want to comment on a couple points the guy made in it. 
While I may not agree with everything I hav seen this guy say in some of his videos, he makes some interesting points that I do agree with. I'll stick for now to the one posted above, since it was posted with the original post.

"In God We Trust" on money.
I have heard from some people that these words on our currency is somehow proof that this is a country of Christians. I find this extremely funny. While I do trust in God, the words printed and minted on currency has nothing to do with nothing except for a chosen design (that, by the way, was chosen by a man, not God). If the designers of our currency and the government officials that approved the designs had agreed that "In Walt Disney We Trust", then guess what? Yep. That would be on the currency. The look of our currency is a design, nothing more, nothing less. It is printed and minted by the government. 
"One Nation Under God" in the pledge of allegience.
I aint going too far into this. It all goes back to the exact same principle as the money scenerio. The pledge was written by a man. Someone liked it. It was voted on by the government to become a national pledge. That's it. If it was still like with different words, a lot of us might have learned growing up, one nation, under Mickey Mouse.
Jesus not being electable?
Forget for a moment if you love Jesus or not. Think about the morals and beliefs of Jesus. Then consider what the average American looks for in candidates for public office. While there are a few of us who would vote for him, the great majority of Americans would laugh Jesus's visions of America's future right off the campaign trail in minutes, not hours or days. Most could never accept the sacrifices that Jesus would have us make immediately. 
An atheist not being electable.
Again, I agree. I don't agree that it is right. I just agree that it is the generally the rule in America that one has to be a Christian to be elected president. I don't understand this since I also believe that religious views have no place in the office of the President. Yes, I believe that a God-fearing president would obviously pray for guidance. However, decisions should be made based on what is best for the country, not based on religion. That is exactly why I do no envy whoever is president. There are decisions that have to be made as President of the United States that I don't think I could make with a clear head because of my religious beliefs. Therefore, I disqualify myself as possibly being a viable option for president.

These are just a few of my opinions from the video. These opinions are coming from a Christian man. However, one can have religion and still have educated, well thought out opinions on certain topics. Some of this goes back to common sense, which isn't too common anymore.


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## bunkie (Oct 13, 2009)

"EDIT: In MY Personal Opinion ONLY!! Politics And Religion should be BANNED from this Site In TOTALITY!!"

Would it be wrong for this agnostic to add a loud AMEN to that sentiment?


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political 
prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. 
In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism who 
should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness 
- these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The 
mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect 
and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their 
connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply 
be asked, Where is the security for property, for reputation, 
for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the 
oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of 
justice? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that 
morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be 
conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of 
peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to 
expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion 
of religious principle.

George Washington's Farewell Address, 1796


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## IrreverentJack (Aug 13, 2010)

Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be deprecated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society.
George Washington - Letter to Edward Newenham ( October 20, 1792)


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

There you go Jack, right to the heart of the matter… The very same matter that pestered our very FIRST President, George Washington.

And to Bunkie, an agnostic amen to you also!


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## xwingace (Apr 25, 2011)

Religion is like a penis: If you have one and you're proud of it, that's great. But don't get all bent out if I don't want to see it or hear about how great it is, and please don't wave it around in front of the kids.
And if you try to stick it in my face-don't be surprised if you get bit!


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

DNFTT


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## muleskinner (Sep 24, 2011)




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