# The USA Budget Dilemma



## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*
The USA Budget Dilemma

*

*Suggested List of things we should do to Solve our Problems:*

*1. * Medical Costs… Fix it.

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*2.* Pass the recommendations of Simpson-Bowles. It wasn't perfect, but it included cuts in social programs, military spending, and increases in taxes, all of which are required to get things going in the right direction.

*3. * We should all vote for reps that will focus on solving this problem,

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*4. * Get an actuarial analysis on what the rates have to go to to make SS 100% self funding from payroll taxes. Next, a national referendum on SS: Do we keep it paying benefits as they're structured now, and are willing to pay the price to fully fund it (I believe the payroll tax needs to increase by about 2% of pay [currently 12.4% split between employee and employer]), or do we want to phase SS out. I guess it comes back about 80% in favor of keeping it as is, so we increase payroll taxes for SS. Everyone pays. (bonus points for means testing SS, and reforming the SS disability program to eliminate fraud.)

*5. * Similar with Medicare. Probably require tripling or quadrupling Medicare taxes (now 2.9% total), but I bet most folks vote in favor (+70%). Once this is done a binding panel needs to be set up to constrain the growth of Medicare. I'd like to see significantly higher costs placed on those that smoke and are significantly overweight. Those two life style choices are a huge drain on medicare. I'd also revoke Medicare part D, it was never paid for and is too expensive; nice to have, but… Medicare has to stop paying everything for everyone. My parents and in-laws are all on it, and it is way too generous; much better coverage than my private insurance.

Both these programs need to be divorced from the general fund and made to be self sufficient. Every few years the tax rates for SS and Medicare should be adjusted, up or down, per actuarial analysis to maintain solvency. If the rates are too high, benefits have to be cut. Forces transparency, and makes the beneficiary of the program pay their own way.

*6. * Completely revoke the Bush tax cuts, for everyone.

*7.* Set capital gains rates equal to earned income. Why do we value investment over actually working for a living. Both are needed, all income should be treated the same.

*8.* Implement the spending cuts and tax reforms in Simpson Bowles, but I would slash Defense by about 50%. We can no longer afford to be the worlds police force. We need national defense, not the ability to wage multiple elective foreign wars simultaneously.

*9. * Panels independent of each cabinet agency should be set up to review all programs and sort through the nice to have that the must have programs. All nice to have programs go. Food inspection stays, farm subsidies go. Air traffic control stays, no child left behind goes. Private businesses do this routinely when times get though. Time to streamline

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*10. * Completely overhaul the federal tax structure. Chop the tax code to 10 pages tops. Forget loopholes and capital gains rates. They are trivial. Everyone needs skin in the game. Except for the dead, everyone should pay taxes. EVERYONE.

*11. * Stop demanding "gifts" from the federal treasury. Cut the actual entitlement programs, not just the amount of growth each year. It has gotten ridiculous.

*12. * Cut the size of the federal government. Private business is the lifeblood of this country. Not government.

*13.* Stop letting our elected federal leaders live like kings. They are not our royalty. They need to live by the rules they make for use, not special rules they pass for themselves.

*14.* Stop the massive printing of money by the FR. Scratch that. Dump the FR.

*15.* Stop punishing good decisions, productivity, efficiency, honest labor, hard work, risk.
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## lwllms (Jun 1, 2009)

Joe,

Hal Mason has it right. Well, as long as we continue to follow the economic theories of Milton Friedman. President Regan was the first to really try to implement Friedman's theories but even Regan realized it wasn't working and Regan raised taxes 11 times to try to catch up. He didn't catch up and we went from being the World's largest creditor nation to the World's largest debtor nation.

Mason was also right to look at Europe for where we're going if we continue with Friedman's theories, which the wealthy and corporations seem to favor. Friedman's austerity is being applied to Europe and it hasn't worked any better there than it did here under Bush.

While there are some legitimate criticisms of Keynesian Economic theory, those minor things can be fixed. We need to return to working under the theories of John Maynard Keynes. If the Government wants to increase revenue the best way is through full employment and growth. We need a solid middle class with a healthy disposable income and who are secure enough to both save and make use of their disposable income for economic stability and growth. You might have heard it before but it's true, "You have to spend money to make money."


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## JollyGreen67 (Nov 1, 2010)

lwllms: Wait a minute, how come I've been led to believe that Obama was the cause of us being a debtor nation?


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## fussy (Jan 18, 2010)

@rosebudjim,

Have you been getting your news and views from fox?

Steve


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

Are you Y'all are trying to argue the point that we should DO NOTHING…

...* rather than DO SOMETHING… at least TRY to ? !!!*

Sounds like Y'all just want to *Blame someone for something and the heck with trying to Solve a Problem!*

... and, if you think Obama, his administration PLUS A Democratic Congress will do it (based on the last four years), *your logic does NOT COMPUTE!*


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

Clinton balanced the budget and we were showing a surplus but Bushocalypse and his minions ruined it .


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## Viktor (Jan 15, 2009)

"Deficits don't matter" Reagan™


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## jmos (Nov 30, 2011)

I think the information in that video should be aired on all stations, 24 hours a day, for a week. Most people don't understand how big the problem is, or that neither party has any idea how to fix it. Dems want to raise taxes on the rich; nice but not nearly sufficient. The Repubs want to cut cut taxes, again; still waiting for the boom from the Bush tax cuts. Retreaded old ideas, the best either Party can come up with.

I still find it unfathomable that Congress would not pass the recommendations of Simpson-Bowles. It wasn't perfect, but it included cuts in social programs, military spending, and increases in taxes, all of which are required to get things going in the right direction.

I do agree that we should all vote for reps that will focus on solving this problem, but I don't know where to find them. On the Presidential level neither candidate is willing to talk about the full problem, let alone propose a viable solution.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

Neither the Republicans nor the Democrats are the answer. They're the ones who got us in this mess. :-|

helluvawreck
https://woodworkingexpo.wordpress.com


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Einstein

helluvawreck
https://woodworkingexpo.wordpress.com


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. Einstein

helluvawreck
https://woodworkingexpo.wordpress.com


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## GregD (Oct 24, 2009)

wormil - Some would argue that Clinton's budget balanced because of the growing stock market bubble at the time (remember the Tech Bubble?).

House Republicans, in spite of all their bluster last year about the ruinous deficit, passed a Small-Business Tax-Cut Measure that would certainly add to the deficit except that it won't go anywhere.

Simpson-Bowles was at least an honest effort toward fiscal responsibility.

The Bush tax cuts were irresponsible. Further, I'm for taxing Capital Gains as ordinary income. But we also have issues with the massive spending on the military, on Social Security, and on Medicare/Medicaid.


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## RetiredCoastie (Sep 7, 2009)

The first thing that needs to happen is government reform. The recent abuses by the GSA is just the tip of the iceberg. Our tax code needs to be reformed. Stop the bailouts. If a business cant stand on it's own two feet then they shouldn't be in business and doesn't deserve my tax dollars. We keep sending money to countries that could care less about our citizens so why should we help them. We send billions to countries so they'll be our friends or buy our goods but we don't see any return for our investments. Too many people suck off the government teat, get off your ass and make your own way in life. If you need help well help but only for a short time. Just today there is a report that billions are going out in the form of tax deductions to illegal aliens that are claiming deductions for family members that aren't or haven't even been in this country. Finally SOCIALISM doesn't work and it never will so get over it. If you don't like it here then get the hell out. Too many people wan't the good life but aren't willing to put out the effort and expect the public or government to support them. If you don't have the means to support the family or lifestyle you wan't then you better get off your butt and earn it! Don't come to me for money because you made poor choices or engaged in reckless or irresponsible behavior. Take ownership for what you do and ccept the consequences for your choices and actions!


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*Why do we ALWAYS have to end up BLAMING "this" and "that" to 
skirt the REAL problem than how to SOLVE it?!*

*Let's KNOCK OFF the BS and continued rhetoric and get to solving the problem… OK?*

What MUST we do to solve the problem?

NOT in long drawn out Narratives…!

*1.

2.

3.

4.

5.

6.

Fill-in the blanks… etc. etc.*

NOT quoting History or blaming anyone, anything, etc.

*Can we do it?*


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## lwllms (Jun 1, 2009)

One of the biggest causes of future debt is the skyrocketing cost of health care. Fix it. Go to a single payer system and get the h*ll out of reproductive rights. There's no profit in our current system for preventative care, the profit is in treating entirely preventable disease. A single payer system, with the profit motive removed, can be a lot more effective at preventing problems.

There are a lot of ideas and I spend my days focused on keeping my own business afloat. I don't have time to dig into all the possibilities but here's one I'm aware of. We all know that remaining fossil fuels are limited but right now we have a glut of natural gas in this country. Instead of burning up that natural gas doing the same things that got us into this mess, use that natural gas to create a cure. Making glass consumes a lot of energy but it's one of the key elements and costs of solar roads. Fund the production of solar roads even if we have to borrow the money to do it. It'll create a lot of good paying jobs and go a long way to solving energy problems and crumbling infrastructure problems.

Here's just one idea of what could be and it would pay for itself:
http://www.trendhunter.com/trends/ecomagination-challenge

Friedman's austerity nonsense is financial suicide. Every job they kill and every benefit that goes away takes from the middle class that drives our economy. Killing jobs, wages and benefits just puts more people in need of public assistance and creates a huge drain on an already fragile situation.

We can do this. If everyone stands up and does their share we'll all feel more optimistic and have a greater propensity to spend and feed the economy. Of course it will also mean that corporations and the wealthy do something more than making every decision based on today's bottom line and how much they can squeeze into their own pockets.


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## JollyGreen67 (Nov 1, 2010)

Hey fussy - I don't go any where near faux news, just rumors I hear from the numb nutts who do.

Joe: Throw all the bums out and start over, including the supreme (dumbass) court.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*rosebudjim:

OK, How do you do it? LOL

*


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## jmos (Nov 30, 2011)

Ok Joe, here's how I think we do it. (keeping it as short as I can per your request.)

To have a real impact you have to hit the big three spending areas, Defense, Social Security, and Medicare. I think everyone agrees we have to pay the interest on the debt and that default is a really bad idea.

1 - Get an actuarial analysis on what the rates have to go to to make SS 100% self funding from payroll taxes. Next, a national referendum on SS: Do we keep it paying benefits as they're structured now, and are willing to pay the price to fully fund it (I believe the payroll tax needs to increase by about 2% of pay [currently 12.4% split between employee and employer]), or do we want to phase SS out. I guess it comes back about 80% in favor of keeping it as is, so we increase payroll taxes for SS. Everyone pays. (bonus points for means testing SS, and reforming the SS disability program to eliminate fraud.)

2 - Similar with Medicare. Probably require tripling or quadrupling Medicare taxes (now 2.9% total), but I bet most folks vote in favor (+70%). Once this is done a binding panel needs to be set up to constrain the growth of Medicare. I'd like to see significantly higher costs placed on those that smoke and are significantly overweight. Those two life style choices are a huge drain on medicare. I'd also revoke Medicare part D, it was never paid for and is too expensive; nice to have, but… Medicare has to stop paying everything for everyone. My parents and in-laws are all on it, and it is way too generous; much better coverage than my private insurance.

Both these programs need to be divorced from the general fund and made to be self sufficient. Every few years the tax rates for SS and Medicare should be adjusted, up or down, per actuarial analysis to maintain solvency. If the rates are too high, benefits have to be cut. Forces transparency, and makes the beneficiary of the program pay their own way.

3 - Completely revoke the Bush tax cuts, for everyone.

4 - Set capital gains rates equal to earned income. Why do we value investment over actually working for a living. Both are needed, all income should be treated the same.

5 - Implement the spending cuts and tax reforms in Simpson Bowles, but I would slash Defense by about 50%. We can no longer afford to be the worlds police force. We need national defense, not the ability to wage multiple elective foreign wars simultaneously.

6 - Panels independent of each cabinet agency should be set up to review all programs and sort through the nice to have that the must have programs. All nice to have programs go. Food inspection stays, farm subsidies go. Air traffic control stays, no child left behind goes. Private businesses do this routinely when times get though. Time to streamline

Cuts spending, raises revenue, everyone suffers, no one is happy. Probably about right.


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## Woodbum (Jan 3, 2010)

Hey Joe! Well, a real simple help for Social Security is to s***tcan the stupid cap on taxable income for SS taxes. Currently I THINK it is somewhere between $106K and $110K. At least raise the cap to $250K. This will bring in a LOT of SS $$. "That's just my opinion , and I could be wrong"


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## JollyGreen67 (Nov 1, 2010)

Joe: I dunno. All we can do is keep trying. The last time I voted here in New Mexico for the local elections, I voted for every woman on the ballot. Didn't even vote for any men - helped somewhat.


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## davidroberts (Nov 8, 2008)

Joes ask for it

jmos started it

Here's mine:

In no particular order, well almost.

1. Completely overhaul the federal tax structure. Chop the tax code to 10 pages tops. Forget loopholes and capital gains rates. They are trivial. Everyone in this country needs skin in the game. Except for the dead, everyone should pay taxes. EVERYONE. If they can't pay taxes, then scrub grafitti off the walls a few hours a day, or pick up trash. One or the other. No free rides.

2. Stop demanding "gifts" from the federal treasury. Cut the actual entitlement programs, not just the amount of growth each year. It has gotten ridiculous. Free rides for all.

3. Cut the size of the federal government. I really don't care how. It was never meant as the be all end all, take care of my every want and desire from womb to tomb. Private business is the lifeblood of this country. Not government.

4. Stop letting our elected federal leaders live like royalty. They are not our royalty. They need to live by the rules they make for use, not special rules they pass for themselves. If it's good enough for us, it's good enough for them.

5. Stop the massive printing of money by the FR. There will be a price to pay, just ask your kid when they try to buy a house, a car, live on their own. Scratch that. Overhaul the FR.

6. Stop punishing good decisions, productivity, efficiency, honest labor, hard work, individualism, risk.

7. Stop promoting slackerism, victim mentality, racism, class warfare, something for nothing attitude.

8. Get the feds out of the classroom. Overhaul the education system. Teach the kids how to think, problem solve, use logic, english, math, science, economics. Get politics and feel good we are all equal out of the classroom. Don't hold back the smart ones. Don't promote to dumb ones. Stop spending more money on one child than an entire class of children. Hold parents accountable for their child's actions. Promote trade schools. Limit the size of the public school sports programs. Our education system is a complete joke. Sorry for the narrative.

9. Stop using taxation to promote a / any social agenda. Add what you like on this one. It's easy.

10. Use verifiable means testing on all government programs, that includes medicine, retirement, handouts, benefits, entitlements, whatever. I don't need to contribute to someone's cigarettes, alcohol, a few 52 inch TVs, video games, spinners, the best medical care money can by, food stamps, section 8 housing, hummers, drugs, and god know what, and pay for three meals their kids are eating a day at inflated prices, at the local public school. Just so no one takes this a racial, stop paying farmers millions for not growing a crop. Stop paying people with real money, not just the big millionaires, social security, medical and other entitlements they can easily afford themselves. oops, more narrative.

11. Stop pandering to the self proclaimed victims of society the media is so eager to latch on to and trot out for display. Stand up and support the makers, not the takers.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*Looks like we're making progress!*

*Thank you very much!*

I have modified the original post to reflect a summary of the items suggested so far.

The next step, after everyone has posted their main Suggestions, will be to determine the sequence of the Suggestions should be done.

Start by studying all suggestions and put the listed numbers (only numbers) into your Suggested sequence…
*Hold off on posting your results until we get more suggestions.*

Thank you again…

*This is resembling a sense of Order for a change! * YES! LOL


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## Bonka (Apr 13, 2012)

A good start would be to pass "The Flat Tax" This would return a massive amount of power back to the people. Most our elected officals cringe at this as it shifts power to us.
Do not comment unless you have read the book.
Secondly. Members of congress are, as a group not intellegent. They have one thought, getting re-elected. They start this the moment they are elected.
Third. Abide by the Constitution. This would be a novel idea to many.


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## lwllms (Jun 1, 2009)

Joe,
Again, we need to get away from the Milton Friedman supply-side economics. It doesn't work-a failure. Here's a rather long article buy Krugman about what needs to be done following Keynesian economic theory which does work. I know it's more than most people will invest the time to read but it's all pretty simple.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2012/may/24/how-end-depression/?pagination=false


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## JollyGreen67 (Nov 1, 2010)

David, If we keep voting the same bums in, we get what we deserve.


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## sarahss (Feb 23, 2011)

term limits so they can focus on why they're there and not on getting re-elected. One congressperson (not sure which chamber he served in) just lost his re-election bid after 36 years-too long!! this would not really solve all the problems, but would at least allow them to work without fear of not being re-elected. might help some…..


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

sarahss:

*Down Goes Goliath!
Cain 'Lieutenant' Mourdock Defeats Lugar: "This is just the beginning!"

Dear Patriot,

Herman Cain today offered his congratulations to Richard Mourdock and the voters of Indiana, for Mourdock's win over longtime Republican U.S. Senator Dick Lugar in the state's GOP Senate primary election.*


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## lwllms (Jun 1, 2009)

Here ya go, Joe. A little food for thought:


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*lwllms:*

That makes sense for the point he was making… "people have to want to buy their products to make the businesses successful".

BUT, the POOR are not going to try to start a business… maybe most middle class will not try to start a business… just some of them, *IF* they have a good product / service to sell… The Upper class could start a business easier than anyone and wouldn't hesitate if they had a good product / service to sell.

Whatever the class is, the end product will obviously determine if it will sell or not… and the business must be flexible enough to make it attractive to the public… which will ultimately determine whether the business succeeds or fails.

NOW, here is where we add another very important factor that will determine whether a business will even be STARTED or not. If there are governmental restrictions in place and are continually being placed, which will make the business harder to be competitive so the public can feel like buying the product, the business hits the wall and the people will decide NOT to buy it… and the business has no choice but to drop prices, etc. which forces them to lose money… can't get out of the hole and eventually close their doors.

When this governmental factor is a VERY HIGH factor, which it is, and is becoming more & more of a problem every day, especially in California, it has a huge impact on business & the economy…. Businesses will just close or, if they can, go somewhere else, to another State, that do not have as many restrictions, etc. leaving a big VOID in the State they were in… (as in California).

If a business is strangled before they start, *no one will attempt to start a business..*. ergo, no jobs will result.

*Businesses must have an incentive to be in business… FREE to make good decisions to make their product wanted by the public… they must be able to make a profit… if they can't do that, they don't… simple stagnation results.*

OK, now, the question is when the government needs more income (taxes), *should it increase taxes on the upper and middle class?* If the restrictions are a major problem as described above, *raising taxes, will just add to the problem forcing more businesses to close their doors.* If their businesses are booming *and everything is fine and are not threatened, as described above, SURE, go ahead and raise taxes… they can stand to do it and still maintain their businesses!*

Right now, businesses are strangled before they even think of trying to open a business… let alone stay in business!

If the businesses were NOT strangled from the very start, more upper & middle class entrepreneurs would jump in and start businesses (making a given good product that will sell), *which would help grow our economy.*

*Now, is NOT the time to raise income taxes on the high & middle class.*.. They should make running a business more attractive FIRST *by removing as many restrictions, etc. as possible*... * Let businesses get started and improve to the point where they can afford to pay the higher taxes!*


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## lwllms (Jun 1, 2009)

Ever been in business, Joe? I am and have been for most of the last 32 years.

What government regulations are you talking about? What I find is that local, State and Federal Government is incredibly business friendly. Every regulation I face is either common sense or the result of past abuses by others and the regulations make sure I don't repeat mistakes of the past. My insurance company puts more restrictions on my business than government.

I suppose you're going to tell me Wall Street need less regulation? If I operated my business the way Wall Street operates I'd quickly be prosecuted for fraud. Are you aware that for years more than a third of all the shares sold on Wall Street didn't even exist? Those shares were never delivered to the purchasing portfolio. Here's a 2008 .pdf article that explains what was and still is going on. This isn't from some left-wing organization, it's from the CATO Institute which is about as pro-Wall Street and conservative as organizations come.

http://www.cato.org/pubs/regulation/regv31n1/v31n1-7.pdf

If working people had retained the same share of the economy as in 1970 they'd be earning almost twice as much and paying a lot more taxes. We wouldn't have this budget deficit if that money wasn't being hoarded by those at the very top.


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## jmos (Nov 30, 2011)

lwllms, stop making sense. We can't have that.

I don't see why it's so heard to understand that we need consumers with disposable income to buy products. If companies paid workers a larger portion of their income, they would have money to buy things and the economy grows. They get a smaller piece of a larger pie and come out ahead (like in the 50' and 60's). "The Job creators" aren't going to start businesses if they know there's no one to buy their products, no matter how low taxes are. We've been focusing too long on supply side, and neglecting demand side.

The biggest fallacy everyone needs to get over is that the middle class, and the wealthy, are over taxed. I saw this chart a while back and it's great. Shows relative federal tax burden since 1913, and the upshot is that almost every group is being taxed at lower rates then in the past. (I'm not sure the site where I found it is the original, so I take make no recommendation for or responsibility for the comments on that site, didn't read any of them.) http://soquelbythecreek.blogspot.com/2011/03/tax-infographic-is-political-rorschach.html

We need a civil dialog about the function of government in our society. Do we want a European style system where the government provides a high level of service, and they pay a high level of taxes, or do we want a minimalist government with low services and low taxes. We currently have a large government without the taxes to support it. No one want so pay taxes, but no one wants their services cut, and the greedy politicians keep telling us we can have it all if we only (re)elect them.


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## BobM001 (Jan 8, 2012)

To put it simply, TINSTAAFL. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A FREE LUNCH. It's time for the "lunch counter" to CLOSE.
lwllms, must live in a state that is "business friendly". Try doing the same business in a state like New York or "Kaliforinia". You get "regulated" to death. You also get taxed out the wazoo at the state level.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*
Small Business under Current Tax Code - Any Questions?

*


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*
lwllms: Ever been in business, Joe? I am and have been for most of the last 32 years.

*

Starting in 1954, I worked for a Public Accountant, and some good sized businesses performing Computer Systems and Accounting work.

I started in business for myself in 1980…


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## patron (Apr 2, 2009)

this in 2004



Can you imagine working for a company that has a little more than 500 employees and has the following statistics:

*29 have been accused of spousal abuse


7 have been arrested for fraud


19 have been accused of writing bad checks


117 have directly or indirectly bankrupted at least 2 businesses


3 have done time for assault


71 cannot get a credit card due to bad credit


14 have been arrested on drug-related charges


8 have been arrested for shoplifting


21 are currently defendants in lawsuits


84 have been arrested for drunk driving in the last year


1 one ran a stop sign and killed a man on a motorcycle

Can you guess which organization this is?

Give up yet?

It's the 535 members of the United States Congress. The same group of idiots elected by us that crank out hundreds of new laws each year designed to keep the rest of us in line.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

... and we know it's probably worse than that NOW!! (??)

... maybe not…

How do you know?

Where do you find out?


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## BobM001 (Jan 8, 2012)

So all OUR suggestions/ideas show the "common sense" of the COMMON MAN. You know him. He's the guy that has to keep food in the frige, the lights on, and the TAXES paid. He has to maintain the "balance sheet". Accounts payable versus accounts receiveable. He can't increase the later without his sweat. He can't "manufacture" money like the government can. If he did, he would be JAILED. But the feds can. Short of cash? Print some more! WE know the result off doing this. It's called INFLATION. Remember that ONE POUND box of spaghetti? You don't see it anymore. It's like 12 ounces. But you're still paying the same amount as before. It's the same for ALL consumer goods, including OIL and refined gasoline. Think the politicians are responsible for all this? They are just a bunch of "puppets" whose strings are being pulled from on high. The "puppeteers" don't want their faces shown. Just like in a "puppet show". They hide behind the curtain. Think not?
OPEN YOUR MIND and WATCH>



.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

Both parties represent big government and both parties are breaking us they just do it in slightly different ways. In the end we're broke. Both parties represent the military/industrial/security complex, the financial industry, large corporations, and many other special interest groups. As long as Americans keep voting in the Republicrats and the Demopubs nothing is really going to change *significantly*.

helluvawreck
https://woodworkingexpo.wordpress.com


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## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

get ride of the pentagon and give the money to those who need it, is my favorite solution (of course the all economy would collapse as this economy is a war economy)


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

I've been saying this for the past couple years, nice to be validated …

*Nick Hanauer and "job creators"*


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## BobM001 (Jan 8, 2012)

Until this country can bring its manufacturing base back to OUR SHORES, there will be few opportunities for "job creation" in this country. Taxes and regulation have driven manufacturing from this country. It's refreshing to see that Pacific Coast Feather(where Hanauer's $$$ originated) has FIVE plants in the USA and one in Canada. Now if we could bring clothing, footware, and consumer electronics back here, THAT would be something! OOOPS! Forgot one, POWER TOOLS!!!!!


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

Bob, in the Video in your post, it describes a group of Billionaires that are controlling our Government (and possibly more world-wide).

*A question I have is "How do we Fix the problem?".*

*1. * They supply all the money to control the elections.

*2. * If someone wins an election that they didn't want to win, it appears that the person winning the election changes their minds about a lot of things… Obviously, having been "Bought-Off" with a few million $ into a Swiss Bank account to help them and their Families for the rest of their lives (very hard to turn down).

*3.* They pull strings to possibly Fix elections.

*4. * They have complete control.

To me, it seems like it would be pretty hard to Fix such a problem…

Laws can be passed, etc. but never enforced or loopholes always being present… with their people in very Key places, they pretty much have total control of our Government and we really cannot do anything about it!

*Bottom Line:*

We have had it! We have been flushed… (IMHO)

*Now, do you (or anyone else here) have any brilliant ideas as to how the problem can really be solved?*


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*

Look what the Feds are doing NOW!

... what an obamination…!!

*


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## lwllms (Jun 1, 2009)

Obama spending binge that never happened.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

That is pure *BS*...* IMHO*


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## BobM001 (Jan 8, 2012)

How do you stop the "NWO Power Elites"? *EXPOSE THEM!* They make all their moves behind closed doors away from the "light of day". *TURN ON THE LIGHTS!* They are counting on a complacent populace that would rather be watching "Dancing with the Stars" instead of learning just who is behind all the moves. THEY provide the "mind numbing entertainment" to keep attention focused away from them. A "dumbed down" populace is just what they want. "Sheep" that are easily "herded". Label the Council on Foreign Relations and the Tri Lateral Commission as just what they are, AGENCIES OF A SHADOW GOVERNMENT. Therefore ENEMIES OF WE THE PEOPLE. Brand the Bilderbergs the same.


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## lwllms (Jun 1, 2009)

Not surprised the facts don't agree with your opinion, Joe. But then your frequently cited sources are worse than FAUX News. Keep drinking the Kool-Aid Joe-you're neck deep in propaganda.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*lwllms:*

Obama has poured more down a Rat hole than any president in history!

Look at all of the Programs he has supported, invested in, Solar, Wind, Green this & That, etc.
Billions invested… *only to go Bankrupt leaving US holding the bag!* ... Trading in Clunkers for New cars…!! Down a rat hole… Most people could not afford to BUY a NEW car!! If anything, it hurt the economy!
Tax Credits for pie in the sky programs… That is $$$ down a rat hole!

Your or THEIR definition of spending needs to be LOOKED AT… whoever collected those figures, completely ignored the Rat Hole spending! (maybe because Obama spent the money "out the back door" to keep off the "Spending" record?!

C'mon… anyone who has been living here, should KNOW what has been going on… DO you really believe that report?!

*Looks like that report was developed by the Wall Street crowd.*.. to try to make the picture look rosier about Obama than it REALLY was/is! Define "Government Spending" vs "Obama Spending"!


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*
BobM001
*
OK, how do we 'expose' them & 'Turn on the lights'?

*What do we do first?*

How do we get through to a Complacent public that probably would not believe it?!


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

As near as I can tell these are actual figures from the government. 1st column is what the government received in billions and 2nd column is what was spent in billions. Joe, if you will notice there is little difference between 2009, 2010, and 2011. I assume what was spent in 2009 was appropriated in 2008. 2012 hasn't ended yet and would be a projection. However, in all fairness 2011 and 2012 would have been appropriated by a Republican congress.

IMHO, it's foolish to argue over which party spends the most. They are both BIG GOVERNMENT and BIG SPENDING and will never get this country's finances in order. It's time everyone realizes this because our huge debt is killing us. It's not going to end very well if we don't get it under control.
year ................................................................................. received----spending 
2001 ….............................................................................. 1,991,082 - 1,862,846 
2002 ….............................................................................. 1,853,136 - 2,010,894 
2003 ….............................................................................. 1,782,314 - 2,159,899 
2004 ….............................................................................. 1,880,114 - 2,292,841 
2005 ….............................................................................. 2,153,611 - 2,471,957 
2006 ….............................................................................. 2,406,869 - 2,655,050 
2007 ….............................................................................. 2,567,985 - 2,728,686 
2008 ….............................................................................. 2,523,991 - 2,982,544 
2009 ….............................................................................. 2,104,989 - 3,517,677 
2010 ….............................................................................. 2,162,724 - 3,456,213 
2011 ….............................................................................. 2,303,466 - 3,603,061

Sorry about the editing. I put the dash between the columns to separate them more. This editor we've got is pitiful.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*helluvawreck*

I am NOT arguing the point of what party has spent the most!

I am saying that Obama has recklessly wasted more money (down a Rat HOLE) than all presidents combined!

Spending money on things that accomplish something is one thing… Continuously spending on things that DO NOT ACCOMPLISH ANYTHING, *is pouring money down a Rat Hole!*

Everything that Obama has spent money on (one way or another… under or over the table) has NOT accomplished anything except increase our Natl. debt! NOTHING good has come from it!


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

Joe, the point is neither one of them are doing much of anything about getting the budget under control. We've gone way past the point where cutting $100 billion here and $50 billion there is going to accomplish what needs to be done. They are just kicking the can down the road and the longer they do the worse it's going to be for everyone of us.

helluvawreck
https://woodworkingexpo.wordpress.com


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*You are 100% correct!*

Right now, we have a House that wants to really do something to solve the problem.

... the problem…

We have a Senate that disagrees… *they do not want to solve the problem.*

*We* have to solve the problem in November by getting the Senate In-Line so something CAN be DONE… instead of this childish stale mate!

... includes a New president as well…

... it's really a ridiculous situation…


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

Nether the House nor the Senate are ready to solve the problem because they are not going to make the tough decisions that have to be made to solve the problem. If they make the tough decisions then they won't be reelected and being reelected and keeping their power and perks is what is upper most in 90% of their minds.

It is important that the American people send everyone of them home that refuses to get the budget under control and to keep doing it. It's important that the American people do some serious study about the consequences of having allowed ourselves to get into this massive debt and all of the future unfunded liabilities that we have.

I realize that most Americans want all of their cake and eat it too. However, if they neglect this there is simply liable to be no cake at all not many years hence.

It's actually probably pretty hopeless because it's all going to call for sacrifices across the board and not nearly enough people are going to compromise to the necessary extent. They will bury their head in the sand and ignore it just like the politicians do and that's exactly why we have the politicians that we do.

The problems will eventually solve themselves but it will not be a pretty sight and we will have been much better off had we solved them ourselves.

helluvawreck
https://woodworkingexpo.wordpress.com


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## GregD (Oct 24, 2009)

Joe, I don't share your optimism that the House wants to solve the problem.
They recently passed another tax cut bill.
I can agree with, or at least go along with your position to reduce spending.
But I find the current crop of Republican candidates and office holders far too reckless about cutting taxes.

I could be sympathetic to your plea for a new president, except the only realistic replacement, Romney, is pandering to the cut-taxes-at-all-costs crowd.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

Solving the problem is going to require raising taxes and cutting spending including the military budget. Unfortunately we have allowed the situation to deteriorate to the point where we don't have some of the leeway that we had 5 or 10 years ago. The longer we wait the less choices we will have down the road and the worse it will be. If we do nothing then the laws of economics will provide the solutions for us but it will be chaotic and we won't like it.

helluvawreck aka Charles
http://woodworkingexpo.wordpress.com


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## jmos (Nov 30, 2011)

Charles, absolutely. Cuts in everything (military, SS, and Medicare included) and increases in revenue are the only way out. Neither party will discuss this fact, they both keep saying what their bases want to hear.

It would actually be somewhat amusing if the Republicans swept the Senate and White house. Let's see if they actually put up. Can you imagine the outrage if they gut Medicare along with slashing taxes on the rich? Would make for interesting midterm elections.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

I suggested to Both, House & Senate, to go ahead and Spend, BUT, CUT something else to offset it…

Real simple way to at least staying even!

Will they do it…?

I don't think so!

BTW, the House is trying more to solve the problem than the Senate…


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## jmos (Nov 30, 2011)

Come on Joe, the House can do anything they want because they know the Senate won't pass it and Obama would veto it if they did. It's all to score cheap political points.

For example, do you really think the Country would embrace the Ryan medicare plan? People want the spending problem fixed, but they don't want their benefits cut to do it. I've never seen a poll suggesting any demographic wants to see Medicare ended, which is what Ryan's plan would effectively do. If they were in power they wouldn't be coming up a fraction of what they are now.

Being the out party is easy. Actually doing the job they were elected to do, and coming to a compromise to deal with the hard issues is difficult.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

OH well, I guess it's too late… may as well roll over and die…

... there is nothing anyone can do to solve the problem…

... so why beat one's head against the wall… for NOTHING…

... ZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzz


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*Socialism is a philosophy of failure, 
the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, 
its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.." *
-Winston Churchill

These are possibly the 5 best sentences you'll ever read: 
Unfortunately, most voters don't know this.

*1.* You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity, by legislating the wealth out of prosperity.

*2. *What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.

*3.* The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.

*4.* You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it.

*5.* When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them; and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work, because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that is the beginning of the end of any nation.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

The answer is in decentralization. For example, take the Department of Education (it could be any other of the alphabet soup departments). The House is the answer. They are elected every two years by US. They are most in touch with US. They control the budget. They live in close drive from our homes. If we are diligent, AS WE SHOULD BE…...... YES? then we should have the most control over them…........... YES?

Why does the President appoint a head of the DEA? Why is he given the power to hire untold thousands of people who we have no control over and don't even know?

Would it be better for all of the people in America if each Representative in Congress appointed 1 representative to the DEA and so you have 435 appointed representatives to the DEA. The criteria would be that the representative to the DEA would be required to be a resident in your state for a certain number of years. They wouldn't have an office in Washington but an office in your state capitol and would work closely with your own state department of education. They would travel to Washington say 3 or 4 times a year to conduct their national business. They would VOTE on their agenda and keep in close contact with our representative. Their primary agenda would be to mainly set forth guidelines to insure that every child in America recieved their fair access under the Law to receive the benefits of education without discrimination. In other words no discrimination to a child in America. Every state would be required to follow the agenda but have some leeway and every state would be policed by the Justice Dept(again made up of appointees by our representatives). The Department of Education would then consist of 435 representatives who were appointed by each of our Representatives who can be kicked out every two years. Of course each representative would have a small staff (maybe 2 or 3 hired by them) that traveled to and from Washington with them. So the DEA becomes 435 people instead of untold thousands that we don't even know. Just a thought - just a question. Why is it that the more we spend on education the further we fall behind the rest of the world? Just asking.

I suppose what I'm asking is not 435 people appointed by each of our Representatives who each have a vote in guiding our educational system toward greatness (if that is what their goal is) sufficient to accomplish the task. I say if not then we as a people are not capable of governing ourselves.

helluvawreck aka Charles
http://woodworkingexpo.wordpress.com

helluvawreck aka Charles
http://woodworkingexpo.wordpress.com


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*helluvawreck:*

It all sounds good… if it could work…

Don't forget the Super Rich Cartel that is Really controlling everything… That's the Real problem… Yes?

We have to elect people that will NOT let Them buy them off… Might be hard to do…


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

No! We are the real problem. We are the many - they, if they exist, are the few. ;-|

helluvawreck aka Charles
http://woodworkingexpo.wordpress.com


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

I am saying that Obama has recklessly wasted more money (down a Rat HOLE) than all presidents combined!

You should ask yourself why you persist in believing something that isn't supported by any facts.

If all you do is stick your head in conservative blogs, conspiracy blogs, and faux news then you're going to believe things like Obama is a socialist out to wreck our economy and has increased spending more than all presidents combined. You will be angry, unhappy and frustrated because that's how they want you to feel so that you go out and perpetuate the myths (as you've done) started by conservative strategians.


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

*Joe,*

You apparently don't believe in facts. How about fairy tales like Mitt is going to get us out of this supposed "mess"?

The solution is much simpler than everyone thinks; get rid of big business lobbyists and let the government's priorities be the people! It sounds simple but it is like rowing up Niagara Falls!

*BobM001,*
You can thank *John McCain* for adding insult to injury when he pushed for a tax break for companies that outsourced jobs overseas … like cutting our own throat with a dull knife!


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

We allow the government to complicate EVERYTHING to no end and they keep growing. If the goal was to teach a child how to read well and wright well; know and understand basic mathematics and basic science; know the basic history of our nation and the world; know a few other subjects like geography, etc; but most importantly, know how to think, and think independently; know how to speak well; have a good dose of common sense; for example: HOW TO READ A TAPE MEASURE or HOW TO COUNT A STACK OF PARTS; then 12 years is more than enough time to accomplish these things and prepare them for higher education. Why is it that many well known people in the history of our nation got excellent basic educations in one room school houses? We know this from the words that many of them have left behind.

I'm just saying that sometimes it appears that we can't see the forest because of the trees.

helluvawreck aka Charles
http://woodworkingexpo.wordpress.com


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## lwllms (Jun 1, 2009)

*Socialism is a philosophy of failure,
the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy,
its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery..*"
-Winston Churchill

"...You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it…"

"...Don't forget the Super Rich Cartel that is Really controlling everything… That's the Real problem… Yes?..."

From your posts, Joe. Don't you see the paradox? Do you really believe that Obama is controlled by the "Super Rich Cartel" and he's a socialist that's trying to confiscate the wealth of the very wealthy and hand it out to the poor? Think about what the propagandists are telling you. Ask, "Does this make sense?"


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*Facts?!* Hey, I've lived through the events… I know what has been going on!
Everything that Obama has caused money to be spent on directly or indirectly, has NOT done any good whatsoever… NOTHING! NADA. a 100% failure. Fact!
*

Trump to Newsmax: I'm Mulling Own Super PAC to Defeat Obama
*

Now, how many here think he is full of it and is lying through his teeth?

How many think he knows what he's talking about & tend yo agree with him?


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

I'm not even sure what Trump's game is, a lot of stuff he says in that article (about China, OPEC, about generating money) makes sense; BUT, he isn't electable and I don't believe he would fix it if he were, Romney isn't going to change it, Obama isn't going to change it. No matter who wins this election, it isn't going to change. No president in any of our lifetimes has done more than lip service toward changing it. That suggests the issues are way more complicated than Trump characterizes (or realizes) them. Then there are the idiotic things he says to get headlines and attention. On the one hand he criticizes OPEC and his proposed solution is to drill, drill, drill; stupid. That isn't forward thinking or even realistic, Trump isn't showing leadership he's just showing off.


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

As wormil said, *Trump isn't showing leadership he's just showing off.*

*After all, that is his game!*


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

First of all, Donald Trump was obviously voicing his opinion…
I think he made very good sense… Obviously, I guess I'm the only one who thinks so… Sheesh…!!


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*

Rating Agencies Warn Further Downgrade Without Deficit Plan

As reported by:
The Hill: Rating agencies warn feds risks downgrade without deficit plan
By Peter Schroeder - 05/25/12 02:17 PM ET

Note: This is a Fact… and We were there… Right now… We know about this NOW, don't we?

*


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## bunkie (Oct 13, 2009)

"Why does the President appoint a head of the DEA? Why is he given the power to hire untold thousands of people who we have no control over and don't even know?"

In school you must have slept though the lesson on the differences between the legislative and executive branches of government.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*bunkie*

The president should NOT have that much power… there should be a Max. Cap. that can be spent, at any rate…

I think those so-called Czars can dictate actions to be taken too!! Which makes it even MORE dangerous!

It's just more money down a rat hole!

... and yes… *way back then, I probably WAS asleep in that class.*.. yuk… hated that crap… LOL


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## jmos (Nov 30, 2011)

Joe, there is a max cap on what the President can spend, its called the congress. Only the congress can authorize spending; the President can't authorize a dime. All spending done in the last two years has been done with both Dem and Rep buy-in, since it passed both Houses. Blaming on person, President, Majority or Minority Leaders, whatever, is really myopic. The problem is all of them, and if Romney wins in November the problem will remain, just like it didn't end when Bush left office.


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## PineChopper (May 21, 2012)

Stop ALL money to illegal aliens.


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

*PineChopper*

I think that jmos covered that aspect very well!

*Check out the Market Watch Wall Street Journal linked below!*

Spending under presidents


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

*Joe*

Below is a list of CZARS by president (From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

CZARS

And, if you bother to check, you can see our current president had less than BUSH!


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## jmos (Nov 30, 2011)

oldnovice, don't you know that The Wall Street Journal is just part of the vast left wing liberal media conspiracy! Obama is a reckless spender because my gut tells me he is! Reality is meaningless, truthiness rules! ;-)

Joe, if you really want to know what I think will fix the system, but I know it will never happen: [rant on] The American People have to pull their heads out of the sand, and out of the echo chambers like Fox News and MSNBC and demand our politicians recognize and address reality. Stop focusing on distracting polarizing issues like gay marriage and abortion, and demand politicians to get specific about how they will handle real issues around the scope of government and how to pay for it,and how to really address jobs and the economy. No talking points, no sound bites, real answers. Every question from every person in every audience and from every reporter should hold their feet to the fire. All campaign donations should stop, and all campaign volunteers should walk away until they start talking the truth. Let's get someone brave enough to tell us that we can fix things but it is going to hurt. Hurt everyone, and hurt a lot. Let's give those candidates our support ,assuming any step forward.

Listening to both Obama and Romney is all 'a tale told by and idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.' And we all dance to the tune, whoop and holler on cue, point at the other side and call them horrible names, and pour money at them. Isn't that helpful. I don't let me children behave that way, but somehow the adults have forgotten everything the learned in pre-school. But, it keep us distracted, keeps them elected, and keeps them rich. Stupid politicians? I think we all need to look in the mirror.

We can change things, but I really don't think most want to. As long as we keep getting more out of the government that we put in, and the politicians keep telling us this can continue, we keep drinking the Kool-Aid. [rant off] I feel a little better now.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

Hey, if it Quacks like a Duck & looks like a DUCK, it is a fricken DUCK!

Y'all were here to witness everything… or were you…?


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

*jmos*

You missed the point! Congress holds the purse strings!


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## Bonka (Apr 13, 2012)

Joe, you are so right. People forget history. The rich are just part of the class warfare crowd. It is their money just as our money is ours. We are not under taxed we are over spent and regulated by the government.


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

*You know this entire thread is a total waste of time!*

*We live in the greatest country on earth .... I dare you try to find one better!*

Our governmental system has a way, as history has shown, of correcting itself over time!

Innuendos, hearsay, outright lies, half truths, and bigotry is what is most evident in this thread and, because we have the freedom to express ourselves in speech, text, and demonstration, is allowed to exist on this web site! There is no logical reason for this post!

*Go try this in some other countries!*


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## jmos (Nov 30, 2011)

oldnovice, I completely understand you and agree. Sorry if the sarcasm didn't get through.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

You say Congress controls the purse strings…

Not very long ago, President Obama hired a person, at an obscene salary. He went around Congress somehow… He thumbed his nose at Congress and did it… Shortly thereafter, I hear rumbles of Congress of reversing that action… Don't remember much after that… 
Was it reversed or not? If not, why?
What happened? Did Obama get away with hiring the person WITHOUT permission of Congress?

How many of you would even think about paying $85,000 for a hamburger? 
Guess who did…
I wonder how many he ordered at that price! Sickening…
*I know what we got for that 'investment'!*

Obama gives the Muslim Brotherhood millions of dollars… Congress approved it? That is clearly supporting the enemy!

How much was paid to AIG & Wall Street, assuming they would use the money in a responsible way to help the problem? What did they do? They made ASSES out of us for giving them all that money! They laughed all the way to the bank! *Spent it on bonuses to the people that caused the problem(s)!*

How many Stimulus Plans were designed and Paid dearly for? How many Trillions?

How many Companies did Obama give millions to for developing Special $68 light bulbs, Solar cell arrays, etc.
They took the money, stuffed it in their pockets, and went bankrupt! Again, laughing all the way to the bank!

How many lavish trips are taken, for doing Government work, where hundreds or thousands of staff employees MUST also must go? Costing MILLIONS! What did we get in return for the Cost?

How many hours does Obama actually work doing the job of trying to be our President?
Maybe it's better for him to be playing Golf, Basketball, running, etc. as much as he does…
When he's doing that, he can't screwup the country any More! LOL

Almost everything he talks about is full of nothing but lies… very little truth…

One of the his main objectives is to disarm us with gun control… he does NOT want us to have guns… for any reason. Once we are disarmed, he would have more power to literally control the nation. Our freedom would be gone. If he understands that it's the Criminal that is causing trouble with guns, he is ignoring it… He wants to disarm ALL of us… but fails to see that the Criminals would still have their guns as they do now. That's why they are called Criminals… they don't abide by or even recognize any kind of Law!

He is a complete disgrace to the Office!

There is ONLY ONE thing he can do good… that is speak, from his teleprompter, move his head, look firm, flex his jaw & lips, stare at the audience, etc., etc. That is all he can do good! Speak! He can NOT really do anything else!

Take a look at who all got money from his Bailout plans… it was more of a Pay Back event under the disguise of a Bail Out! The only exception is when the general public received "bail out" checks, of which most people spent it on Chinese goods hurting our economy instead of helping it!

Money was spent on all of those things by Obama whether Wall Street, etc. want to call it "Obama Spending" or not. Mostly at the time when the House was dominantly full of Democrats. Obama planted the seeds for the spending!

Obama has been responsible for the highest amount of overall spending, without getting getting ANYTHING in return for it, than any president in history… *regardless of how Wall Street, etc. wants to sugar coat it!*


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

*Joe,*

How many time must you be told that *CONGRESS* controls the purse strings *NOT the PRESIDENT!*

Congressional Spending by session

The majority of this information is from the CBO, Congressional Budget Office (not the Wall Street Journal or any other newspaper). The above link will show you that spending is by congressional terms not by president in office!

So don't go telling everyone that our president is *"dumping money down a rat hole."*


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*Then the President has controlled Congress!*

*... and I AM saying that Obama is responsible for dumping money down a rat hole!*

How did Obama hire a person without consent of the Congress?
... or have you forgotten about that event?!


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

Since when *"Then the President has controlled Congress!"*

Again, *Bush did the same thing!* Hire someone when congress is out of session to get around congressional approvals!


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*oldnovice:*

Obama got everything he wanted when he had a complete Democratic congress!
You know that! Doesn't everyone know that?! That is when he had his hay day!
Thank God that came to an end… or he would still be pouring money down a rat hole like he was doing before!

*Obama abused his power… poured money down a rat hole!*

We're talking about Obama and his administration… 
You didn't answer my question!

*How did Obama hire a person without consent of the Congress? (Repub. House & Democ. Senate)
... or have you forgotten about that event?!
*

* Bush did the same thing! Hire someone when congress is out of session to get around congressional approvals!*
Now you agree that Obama hired someone without Congress approving it! You keep telling me that Congress pulls all of the strings… Pure BULL!


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

*Joe,*

*A wildly Preposterous assumption!*

President Obama was elected in 2008, sworn in on January 9,2009. The Democrats lost the house majority in 2010 and you assert that in that one year period that the *"rat hole was being filled"!*

*-----------------------------------------------------------------*

Recess Appointments have been made by nearly every president, even George Washington … see ..

Wikipedia link to Recess Appointments

and special pay attention to the paragraph *Examples and use* you will see this is *NOT* uncommon!

*Please check facts before spouting half truths!*


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## jmos (Nov 30, 2011)

See Joe, you're making my point for me. You're too wrapped up in partisan vitriol to see you're doing exactly what they want you to do. Pull your head out of the echo chamber and you'll realize both parties are fundamentally the same, and neither cares a bit about the average American.

More than three years into Obama and every day I see less and less of a difference between him and Bush. Didn't Bush give us unfunded programs like major tax cuts, no child left behind, and medicare part D? Not to mention TARP started under Bush. Romney, if he has the House and Senate will be more of the same. More likely he'll have the House, but not the Senate, and we'll get at least two years of gridlock and bickering.

The answer is to get rip of both major parties at the voting booth. But, as I said, folks like you (and my liberal in-laws) have too much fun hating the other side to want to change anything.


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

*And the truth wins out again! *

*Good Night to Mr. and Mrs. America!*


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## GregD (Oct 24, 2009)

+1 on what jmos said, particularly post #79 (I didn't misunderstand the sarcasm).


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

How did Obama hire a person without consent of the Congress?

The President doesn't work for Congress, he is 1/3 of the branches of government. Frankly when it comes to our president, (any of them) I WANT them to live lavishly.

Obama got everything he wanted when he had a complete Democratic congress!

This never happened.

I would challenge you to give up all your current partisan sources of news and information for six months to see how your outlook changes. It's very addictive, I've been there, but it also makes you miserable and unhappy because the conservatives are feeding on negativity. Go watch some Ted Talks rather than focusing on the invented crisis of the day.


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## bunkie (Oct 13, 2009)

" Go watch some Ted Talks rather than focusing on the invented crisis of the day."

What a great suggestion! TED is full of great stuff.

There's so much really cool stuff going on that it's a shame to focus on all this gloom and doom when smart people are doing what they have always done, trying (and in many cases succeeding!) to solve problems. This seems like something that lumberjocks should innately understand given the level of creativity and "can-do" spirit so many members display.


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## Oldtool (May 27, 2012)

The problem is the government. The solution is the citizens, not the electorate.

"To take from one because it is thought that his own industry and that of his father's has acquired too much, in order to spare to others, who, or whose fathers, have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association-the guarantee to every one of a free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it." 
"Thomas Jefferson"

It is amazing how smart this man was. .................. http://jpetrie.myweb.uga.edu/TJ.html


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## jmos (Nov 30, 2011)

While I generally agree with the sentiment of your Jefferson quote, it's taken a tad out of context.

"To this a single observation shall yet be added. Whether property alone, and the whole of what each citizen possesses, shall be subject to contribution, or only its surplus after satisfying his first wants, or whether the faculties of body and mind shall contribute also from their annual earnings, is a question to be decided. But, when decided, and the principle settled, it is to be equally and fairly applied to all. To take from one, because it is thought that his own industry and that of his fathers' has acquired too much, in order to spare to others, who, or whose fathers have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association, '' the guarantee to every one of a free exercise of his industry, and the fruits acquired by it ". If the overgrown wealth of an individual be deemed dangerous to the State, the best corrective is the law of equal inheritance to all in equal degree ; and the better, as this enforces a law of nature, while extra-taxation violates it." - NOTE IN DESTUTT TRACY'S POLITICAL ECONOMY, vi, 573. (1816.)

TJ was arguing for equal application of tax law to all, and not singling out rich individuals. He was not arguing against taxation. To the contrary, at the end he suggests taxation on inheritances to check concentration of wealth.

The flip side of your original point (government shouldn't redistribute wealth) is that the government should not design a system that provides preferential treatment to some, particularly the wealthy and large corporations. Big business and the wealthy spend a fortune to get politicians elected and then reap the benefits of a system designed in their favor, thus creating winners and concentrating wealth. I'd be a lot more sympathetic to the redistribution of wealth argument if the government didn't assist in the concentration of wealth to begin with.


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## Oldtool (May 27, 2012)

John 
Good comments, and I'm not so sure we are far apart in our thinking. However, as this is the Lumberjocks forum, and not intended for political discussions, I'll leave it go at that.
So, working on any good projects? How close is your location to Logan County, NJ? Have you visited the web site: 
http://www.logancabinetshoppe.com/index.html
I think you'll like it, especially since you like crafting furniture. Very interesting videos at this site.

Have a great day,
Tom


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## jmos (Nov 30, 2011)

Tom, as this is the non-shop section, I don't sweat it. But, yes, I'm pretty close to Logan Township, about 20-30 minutes from me. Very interesting link, thanks for passing it along. I'll have to make a visit some time.

I'm currently working on a Harvey Ellis design bookcase. Unfortunately, my shop time is limited, especially with my little one out of pre-school for the summer. I should be finishing it soon and I'll post it when I'm done. Thanks for asking.

Best Regards,


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