# Stain won't take



## lexxx07 (Feb 8, 2012)

stain won't take well getting freckles need to stop my project and re-sand a couple of things before i continue need a light brown color on birch hardwood and birch plywood


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## TCCcabinetmaker (Dec 14, 2011)

Need more information to help. What grit did you sand to, what type/brand of stain are you using, what processes are you using prior to staining?


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## lexxx07 (Feb 8, 2012)

I Sanded to 220 blew the dust off raised the grain by wiping with water and letting dry, then sanded again after and the stain job came out freckled and pale in need it to be darker. Tried to applysecond coat nothing and i folled the directions on the can to a tee. Never did learn how to stain only clear finish.


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## TCCcabinetmaker (Dec 14, 2011)

I think it's because you used water to raise the grain, water is going to block most stains from taking and where it has dried you will get an uneven finish.

I NEVER use water to do anything other than wipe away excess glue, then I will let that dry and resand it.

I've had a similiar problem before with maple however, the solution was to use an aniline dye and lacquer wiping stain combo to get the desired effect.

Also, the higher the grit you sand to the less open the pores of the wood are to except stains. I've worked in shops that never sanded above 150 to get stain grade wood prepped, then I've worked in shops that went higher. The shops that went above 150 always seemed to have more issues getting the desired stain colors than the other. Just saying and I know someone will disagree, but the difference will be that I do have a production background.


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## lexxx07 (Feb 8, 2012)

Should I re-sand to 120 and start over i even did some sscrap pieces that came out like crap or is it the nature of birch hardwood


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

Sand to 120 and apply the stain. Don't worry about raising the grain. When you achieve the right darkness, seal with your first coat of finish…THEN sand lightly with 220 or more. Sand the finish, not the stain.

And don't follow the directions on the can. Cans are stupid.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

Mike Like I told you on the phone stay away from consumer products they will be the death of your business. Get a good quality water based stain brush it on or spray it on and then wait a few minutes and wipe off the excess with a lint free rag I buy old t shirt material scraps they work fine for this Gel stains are not the way to go my friend.

This is one of those times to regroup Get it re sanded and and apply a good name brand stain use the method I told you on the phone. Finishing is not rocket science it is really simple learn from those of us that do this every day. KISS and you will be okay. Also If this means buying online and paying for fast freight this is the price you have to pay to meet your deadline. Next time trust me and dont use consumer stains they are for homeowners who lack skills to apply a proper finish.


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## TCCcabinetmaker (Dec 14, 2011)

Well, if by consumer we are referring to minwax, yeah, it's not the best out there, it's a dye stain, and if it doesn't absorb into the wood it's just not gonna do it. I typically use cabot, which could be considered a consumer stain, but it's a pigment stain rather than a dye, so it leaves the pigments on the wood when dried, now a paint on finish will wipe it away, but if you are spraying like you should be doing as a business, then that's not a problem. I also however use gemini stains as well on certain woods, like say a chestnut or darker stain on maple, because of my past experiences, that stuff is expensive, but worth it.


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## TCCcabinetmaker (Dec 14, 2011)

oh and to compliment what cosmicsniper said, if you are getting ring hook scratches in the finished product at 120, you need a better sander, I like my 35 dollar ryobi, it outperforms the dewalt at the same price < it has a higher rpm so it sands better faster>


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## Purrmaster (Sep 1, 2012)

Most Minwax stains are a combination of pigment and dye. On blotch prone woods they can cause some serious blotching.


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## TCCcabinetmaker (Dec 14, 2011)

read teh label.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

when using stain the finer you sand the more you block stain from penetrating that's one reason people sand end grain to 600-800 grit to stop stains from penetrating to much and having the end grain stain much darker than the rest of the wood. Another issue is using penetrating stains only get darker after one or two coats because the seal off the wood so it will not take any more grain. The specks your talking about could be what is called" push back" this happens in woods with open grain like red oak where the woods open grain stores excess stain but as it drys the extra stain is pushed back out of the open grain.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Mike Since your in the business knowing about finishing is paramount to having a good looking product so I would consider a class in finishing or some DVDs Like "Charles Neil's finishing from A-Z" or the new book he's coming out with.
Everyone has their own opinion how to finish some work some don't. The proof is in their finished projects. Take a look at Charles work on his web site and you will see what a difference a good finish makes.
http://www.cn-woodworking.com/


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

+1 what Jim said I learned a lot reading his finishing stuff some I use some I don't. But I do know the products you choose will ruin a project.

Jim he is using birch it has very little open grain in my experience but I do think he is using the wrong kind of stain he is using a gel stain I have never liked them they always look bad when i use them so I avoid them. I get great results with general and some other water based stains and this is what UI recommended to my good friend Mike.


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## lexxx07 (Feb 8, 2012)

Well I was in the lab today abd I tried 2 brands the one on the left is rustoleum it took well the other was cabot it also took well however the cabot took better. I am waiting to get some old masters, and general finishes water based stain. Now that I have solved the color dilemma I have to deal with the blotching any advice guys ( i want to try the Charles Neil blotch control)


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## lexxx07 (Feb 8, 2012)




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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

those both look pretty good mike I go over the board with steel wool to decrease the blotchy 0000 size it will smooth out but never do it on oak.


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## TCCcabinetmaker (Dec 14, 2011)

cabot also makes a pre-stain conditioner, it works ok. definately better than a min-wax preconditioner. As for the old master they manufacture 3 different types of stains for each color, just a heads up. As for gel stains they work ok when you have to glaze things, but honestly a glaze will work better.


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## lexxx07 (Feb 8, 2012)

So now what do I do with the gel stain. Is there anything that I can do with it really don't want to eat the cost of the stain


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## lexxx07 (Feb 8, 2012)

TCC Have you ever used the pre-stain conditioner what r the results hell do i even need to use the pre-conditioner


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

Id say if it is unopened return it and that that is open save for softer wood projects.


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

Blotch control

Bronze wool

Practice on scrap first

Done


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## lexxx07 (Feb 8, 2012)

Why does steel wool work. What does it do


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

It rusts


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

This is another reason to invest in a book , because you can easily spend the cost of a $40 finishing book on buying bad finishing products . I have used Charles Neil's Blotch control and it works great.
http://lumberjocks.com/reviews/1430
I agree with wahoo609
I would not use steel wool because if water base finish is used you will have rusts spots all over your work.


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## lexxx07 (Feb 8, 2012)

Jim why is everyone suggesting steel wool what is the science behind its use


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## TCCcabinetmaker (Dec 14, 2011)

I have used the pre-stain conditioners, I didn't like the minwax at all, as it seemed ineffective. The cabot worked fairly well, but not perfectly, but then it may have been affected by the weather, mostly because of 100 degree days. I do however not know how it will work on bich hardwood, it did work ok on the plywood, but then I also typically cut the stains with some thinner which I can't really say what is in public forums, in order to keep the panels from coming out darker than the hardwood, which was maple.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

thats the craziest thing i have ever heard it wont rust if the stain is dry come on you guys if you are afraid they are right use brass it wont rust on a dry board it smooths the board down Mike What the hell do I know I have only been doing this for 40 years


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Lexxx07
In my opinion steel wool is and old school approach and steel wool is used like sand paper and it comes in different grades fro 000-#4 kind of like sand paper grits. I feel sand paper is a much better approach ,but like many aspects of wood working people recommend what their use to or what they have been taught to use in years gone by.
particularly in finishing material things have changed quite a bit . years ago most quality finishes where some type of oil finish and as recent as 10 years ago water base finishes were terrible ,but now there are a lot ecological issues dealing with oil finishes and there thinners and now water base finishes are great products . The bottom line is if you only use oil base finish and use steel wool you will probably not get rust spots,if you use water base and steel wool *you will 110% for sure get rust spots* no matter how you clean,blow,dust your finish.


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## lexxx07 (Feb 8, 2012)

a1Jim 
Why do you feel that sandpaper is a better approach. What would I be trying to accomplish by using sand paper.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

Wow jim I must have rust spots on all my work then and i am just so blind i cant see it . A dry board is a dry board and will not rust it has never happened once in all my years of finishing. Granted if you use steel wool on a wet board you will get rust but for what it is worth this is a non issue since Mike Is using an oil based Gel stain.


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## Purrmaster (Sep 1, 2012)

If the problem is that the stain just isn't being absorbed a pre-stain conditioner won't help. If you're getting blotching, it may help. It partially seals up the wood so the stain, basically, doesn't penetrate as much. The upside is less blotching. The downside is less coloring altogether.

Gel stain doesn't penetrate as much. It blotches less because it isn't absorbed as deeply as a liquid stain.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Mike 
My example was for steel wool versus sand paper. assuming you have already sanded your project ready for finish then,after you put your finish It may be necessary to knock it down with either steel wool or a light sanding then on the topcoats first coat it you usually necessary to smooth the first coat before adding the second or third coat of top coat this is done with sand paper or steel wool. Since there are always differences of opinions I suggest you try a sample board and see what works for you. If you have more questions feel free to PM me.


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## TCCcabinetmaker (Dec 14, 2011)

Well the dude50, if one uses steel wool and doesn't get all of the sanding residue off, it will contain bits of steel however tiny. And that is how rust can be caused. I like to use sand paper because it's more efficient being that I use lacquer, and well I'd have to clean the sanding dust to get rid of the metal dust, problem with that is, I"d also get rid of the lacquer dust that re-melts and fills in pores.

So suggesting steel wool you may need to also explain how you clean up the sanded dusts as well, and with different finish types, you have to use different solvents to clean.


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## RussellAP (Feb 21, 2012)

As far as the rings go, I assume you mean the tiny rings left by the ROS. Don't ever start and stop your sander on the wood, always bring it off before you turn it off with a sweeping motion out past the wood. Don't turn it on in contact with the wood either.

After you sand it down to good wood, try a gel stain. They are pretty easy and come out good even if you don't stain much.


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## TCCcabinetmaker (Dec 14, 2011)

Russe yes that is what I meant, but I also have had similiar issues with quarter sheet sanders, what I've found after years of trying to perfect my sanding techniques is that the rpms of the sander will make a huge difference, on slower sanders I've had the problems you are talking about using the exact same techniques I use with higher speed sanders and have had that problem, even with keeping to your suggestions.


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## TCCcabinetmaker (Dec 14, 2011)

oh and he was ussing a gel stain russe.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

After steel wool and between every coat i wipe with a tac rag I have never had rust so I guess grandad taught me well. I also live in a dry climate most of the year so this is a non issue here where mike is now left this area and moved to Tri cities in Washington Idaho Oregon boarder lands I believe the city is in Washington but it too is a desert.


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## lexxx07 (Feb 8, 2012)

Hey guys my issue is not with the finish or for lack of a better term the clear it is the staining. 1 the gel stain would not take. Now that I have a stain the color I want it takes but it blotches. The dude suggests using steel wool of the stain prior to the finish. If I understand correctly. Now a1Jim likes sandpaper over steel wool I would like to know why. and how much scuffing needs to be done prior to applying my first coat of finnish (not color)


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

Okay, let's see if we can provide some answers.

Steel wool is fine if using oil-based products. They are not fine if using water-based.

In mid-coat sanding, steel wool as well as the synthetic pads will ride over a piece of debris and create a bump, it doesn't have the "sheer" cut that sandpaper does.

Gel stains are not designed for the wood to "take" the stain. They are designed to predominantly lay on top, thus they are reputed to be better for controlling blotch.

The biggest issue with oil base anything is that once you've applied a coat the oil seals the wood and further coats have little to no effect.

Oil-based pre-stains are nothing more than clear oil, however oil as well as solvents have a chemical reaction, as well they gather in the soft grain. That's the reason you can apply a clear oil and have blotch.

Min wax as well as many other stains are "any thing", meaning they have oil-based dyes, stain, and combinations thereof. To test, put a stick in without stirring, if you have a clear stick and goop on the bottom you have a pigment stain, if you have a colored stick and no goop, you have a dye, you can also get a colored stick and goop, this is a combination.

This is one that you will probably think I'm nuts, but in reality has been around for many generations and is the basis for most oil-based "Brown" stains.

Get you some foundation coating, or roof patch without the fiber from the hardware store or a box store. Thin it with some mineral spirits and you can pretty much make any color of brown you want. You can match min wax Golden Oak, and on up the scale.

I feel sure I will hear about this one, but don't knock it until you try. The advantage is depending upon how much you thin it, you can make it as dark or as light as you want. If you're into arts and crafts/green and green, or any project that you want anywhere from a gold tone to a dark brown, this will do it. It's also pretty inexpensive, I bought a gallon of foundation coating at the hardware store for $13.

This is not going to cure your blotch problem, you're going to have to use a blotch control if you want an even color, but with the above "stain concoction" you can mixed up the stain to be dark as you want over the pre-stain. Be sure to measure carefully the "tar"/mineral spirits and keep notes, if you're into brown tones, you will probably never buy a can of premade stain again. Once the stain is dry you can finish as with any other oil base stain. Give it a shot, you will be amazed. If you're doing Walnut and have sapwood apply a heavier coat to the sapwood, then a thinner mix over everything including the sap, it just sort of disappears.

The issue with any pre-stain is it is going to seal the wood to some degree, it has to in order to prevent the blotch.

Hope some of this helped.


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

The concept Charles mentions using "roofing tar" isn't unique. Most books on finishing talk about the concept, particularly in its use also as a grain filler. "Asphaltum" is the word to google…it'll provide more information in regard to use for wood finishing. It's not hocus-pocus and Charles shouldn't be taken to task too badly for mentioning it.

I would assume if you are not happy with the amount of absorption of a stain, then the solution is simple…you put some of that stain into the finish as well. As long as the stain is compatible with the finish (e.g. oil-based stain and oil-based finish), then you can get the work to look as dark as you want.

Why more people don't do this is beyond me. Puzzling how simple and easy it is, yet people refuse to try it.


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

Lexxxy - Just try this and get back to me…

1.) Sand to 120.
2.) If blotching will be a problem, then use a conditioner, whether Charles' product or a washcoat of shellac - otherwise, skip to step 3.
3.) Apply one coat of the stain (it will likely be too light for your tastes)
4.) Mix a small amount of some of the stain into the compatible finish. Apply it.
5.) Lightly sand (by hand) with 220 or better. 
6.) Repeat steps 4 & 5 until you are pleased.
7.) Finish clear, sanding in between coats to whatever level of smoothness floats your boat.

I guarantee it'll easily produce the results you want and you won't be able to tell the difference over the "normal" way, other than that this way actually works.

And don't worry about how it looks after step 3. If it raised the grain or feels rougher than you think it should, just press on. Later sanding of the finish coats will yield as much smoothness as you could possibly ever want.


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

Jay, you are totally correct, and if you like you can mix it with your favorite oil and you have "danish oil " . Thats exactly what most commercially sold danish oils are .

the really nice thing is YOU are in control, if a prestain is causing a lighter color than desired , then simply add more "tar" ( not really) and darken to your liking. Been using it for eons !


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

BTW, don't skip step 3. You need that step to reveal the grain because the subsequent steps will tend to conceal it. If you don't care about grain, then skip step 3.


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

@Charles - Right…and thanks.

You can take two completely different boards, wipe on a stain for a base color to get the boards similar in color and to reveal the grain, then top it with tinted finish (or tar, gel stain, whatever) which lays atop the wood, equalizing the color between boards and providing the right level of darkness. Then, once your base color is even, you can get real artistic with it, if you choose, applying gel stains or asphaltum to even mimic the grains in another wood.

I redid an outdoor bench not long ago. I had to replace two oak slats and it was also revealed (after sanded down) that one of the slats was already a replacement. I had to not only match color between the boards, new and old, but also simulate the weathering and wear on the newer boards. These are the techniques you use…and for somebody like Charles who does this for a living, this is so old-hat that he don't even think about it. For somebody like me, it was just intuitive, verified through lots of practice and screwed up test boards.

But even the most regular of staining chores among the most amateur of woodworkers can benefit significantly by using a few of these simple concepts. We have a lot of finishing tools available, but insisting on sticking with just stain is the fastest way to really mess things up…because certainly, we can fix it by just adding more stain, right? lol

My $.02.

I'm sure that practical things like this will be a strength of Charles' book as well.


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## lexxx07 (Feb 8, 2012)

Thanks to all of you guys for taking the time to give me advice I am going to the lab and experiment withe roofing material I saw a couple of your videos Charles and on in particular explained alot about what my initial problem. Now have a vague idea about what to do when choosing stain. Now i need a clue about blotch control. MR. Charles would you do a playa a solid and give me the name of the roofing material you bought. Thanks guys Lexxx07 I will be back with pictures and results.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Good luck with you project,your in good hands with Charles Help.


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## Earlextech (Jan 13, 2011)

Jay and Charles have now outlined exactly what I've done for the last 30 years. Finishing is easy unless you complicate it.


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

lexx , just get the foundation coating, with no fiber , its all the same, what I got is called foundation coating from do it best hardware, it was just down the street,

It will be amazing to see how many guys try it, if you do you will be amazed, I promise

Sam the way i put it is, "finishing isnt difficult unless you insist"

when you understand that it is a craft unto its self, and there is no magic formula then you can begin to be able to finish well. 
been finishing since I was 13 , now approaching 60 , you do the math


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## pintodeluxe (Sep 12, 2010)

You have a blotching problem, common on certain softwoods and wood towards the soft side of the hardwood spectrum. Search LJ's for pre-stain conditioners. There are commercial products available, or you can just use thinned dewaxed shellac as a seal coat. It works great.


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

@Jonathan - You are mixing too much color in the finish. With shellac, I use just enough dye to give it a slight color boost. I might spray the work with 5 to 10 coats to sneak up on the finish. That's easy to do with shellac in no time at all. You shouldn't see much different in one coat, but you definitely will after a few. Finishes even out after multiple coats…it's the "law of averages" thing.

But good point about spraying in corners. It does kinda depend on the work.


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

Yeah, it's definitely an issue, Jonathan. But I think, regardless of what is being sprayed, it's hard making uniform color with one coat of anything. Try spraying one coat of brown latex paint on a white wall with an HF gun. That's why I use a roller! lol


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

Oh, and Sam, don't say you can make that work with an Earlex!


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

Jay, uh , well, yes you can do an even coat in 1 application, ever heard of cross hatching, did it every time I shot a high metallic finish or metal flake, and surprisingly enough, I use a earlex and harbor freight gun in all my classes, they do well , not the hoss my apollos and kremlins are but they do a decent job, this will be a good subject for another day. 
however your correct, you cant get it even in one PASS , I agree


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## TCCcabinetmaker (Dec 14, 2011)

cosmicsniper,

No offense but you need to learn the kiss rule, there are way too many steps in your processes. Finishing is not that hard, and as professionals we won't use the same products methods or techniques a hobbyist will. If it can't be done relatively quickly after all we have to charge more for it.


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

TCC - Read the thread and the problems encountered by the original poster. This isn't a spray lacquer and be done with it job. Of course, keep it simple…that's why I gave the recommendation I did. You want to keep compounding the problem by adding more stain?

These are people with real problems because they started a process they can't finish. I haven't said anything more complicated than what Charles said…oh, but he's a pro, right? Please, don't insult us by saying amateurs don't know finishing. I have paid "pros" to do jobs in home construction who didn't have a clue.

And if you don't use a toner when finishing kitchen cabinets, then I just don't know what to say. And if you have to ask WHY you'd need a toner for doing cabinets, especially contractor grade, well, then holy crap.

Delivering color via the finish IS simple, regardless of the method used. IMO, 90% of finishing problems occur because people choose the "simple" way…namely stains.

EDIT: Sorry for coming across with a tinge of anger, TCC. I see you've been posting the whole time, but I find it interesting that your recommendations are seemingly more complex than mine..and you even mention the use of dye-tinted lacquer. Puzzling. Seriously, how much trouble is it to add a little of the stain/dye into some finish to allow the stain to work to full potential? Especially since you'll be finishing it anyway. In essence, that's all I really recommended.


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

Charles - Just an argument over semantics. "Pass" is the word I should have used. With shellac, I easily do multiple passes (seemingly scores of them) to get coverage in a single coat…which is possible because it dries almost as quickly as I can spray it.


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

JAY , you got it, do a pass one direction, thin and light, then reverse direction, then corner to corner, and speaking of inside corners they are a problem, the issue is bounce back, a sprayed finish will repel from an inside corner, try rotating the nozzle so it sits on your gun verticle, this will cause the spray pattern to spray horizontal vs verticle, and spray 90 degrees to the corner, helps alot,. also learn to build to accept a finish, interior cases some pre finishing is in order, my motto is " think finish " before you build , makes a huge difference.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

Well if the great god Charles Neal says I should not use steel wool to smooth my work before finish and after stain I am game but I don't like to add more dust that sanding causes either. This is why steel wool was used for generations so then the obvious choice will be a synthetic pad like the grey 3m pads as they do a similar job to steel wool but they don't rust.

What say you Charles are the synthetic pads okay or do you dislike them too.

Also some more background Mike has a lot of these entry level kitchens to build his profit margin is thin already so he needs to be able to get this done quickly and get to the next kitchen. I think I would try the the tar product if I had time to experiment and I would recommend using a small scale so your results are repeatable otherwise your shooting in the dark. You will want to keep a book of the colors you get from so much of the tar and so much of the solvent. If you are not meticulous about measuring these amounts as you add you will be lost when it comes time to reproduce the same color.

Cross hatch spraying is the single best way to get consistent color when you are spraying however for mike he has no access to any spray equipment so this wont help Mike at all. until he can afford to buy a spray system.

Like most old timers i don't like changing methods that have worked for me forever without good reason I have used steel wool with no problems since I was a kid I will of coarse try something else if your insistent that this is a bad practice but I will go back if the results are not as good as the previous method.

Charles I will assume using a tar based stain will make this an oil stain Correct?


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## lexxx07 (Feb 8, 2012)

Well I tried to experiments today at the shop the steel wool is the bomb it smoothed out they blotches. As Captain Hook would say "I can't believe me salty eyes" however this will take entirely to long for what I am doing, how ever this is an excellent tool that goes in the box for smaller projects down the line but it worked good. The next experiment was the pre-stain conditioner. I got some cabot pre-stain conditioner and used it according to the label on a piece of scrap birch since I am using birch and sanded one side to 120 grit and the other to a 220 I allowed the stain to set on the board 5 min, then wiped the excess i was impressed. I will show some photos of the board (BTW the board is white wood on one side and a darker reddish tone on the other) tomorrow I left my phone at the shop. I was excited could not wait to strip the gel stain off for the new one. I am using rustoleum paprika it is giving me the look my customer wants so I am happy. but I am going to go with the general finishes water base until i get the hang of the roof tar hook up. Bootleg Cabot works this good the Charles Neil stuff Must be the Bomb. Going to get that next go round need to get a gallon does it come in a gallon.


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## lexxx07 (Feb 8, 2012)

oh dude i would like to spray but i have the guns and cups but not sure i can with the the air compressor I have a big one 80 gal from Mercedes Benz Days, but someone said that it would not work.


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

steel wool is fine with oil or solvent, if it smooths adequately for you no issue, the synthetics do good as well, 
I just prefer a sanding pad over the steel wool or synthetic, especially when I have several coats on and want to make sure any nibs are cut flat and smooth, I spray alot of water base and post cat solvent , they are heavier film coatings, so sanding is the best for me, again if it works for you by all means stay with it

lex, if you havve an 80 gallon compressor I would assume its either a 5 or 71/2 hp, thats exactly what I have , cant imagine it not being more than adequate.

dude, you are correct the tar thing is an oil base, again it IS the base for most oil based brown stains, its exactly what they use, they just mix it with oil, in this case by mixing with just mineral spirits it dries faster and can be mixed to any degree of intensity you want, if you used BLO instead of mineral spirits you have a commercial oil base stain, no difference whatsoever .


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## Earlextech (Jan 13, 2011)

Cosmicsniper - I can do anything with an Earlex that can be done with anyone else's HVLP. These are application tools, the quality of finish comes from the user. What exactly is your challenge?


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## lexxx07 (Feb 8, 2012)

I really don't know I was told that you could not an hvlp gun with just a compressor that I needed a turbine so I put spraying on hold. I am hell on wheels with a rattle can from my graffiti days. So I can handle spraying . Getting the correct spray pattern cinch, adjusting the volume a cinch. However knowing how to thin for different viscosities of liquids and which size needles no clue.


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

Sam…I was just being cute, hence the winkie symbol.


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## Earlextech (Jan 13, 2011)

back at you


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

lexxxy07 - Sure you can use HVLP guns with a compressor…the issue is whether your compressor has enough capacity to keep the gun at pressure. Smaller pancake style compressors, among others, just won't work. The alternative is either a bigger compressor or a turbine system. I paid like $50 for my HF turbine…it's not very adjustable, but it sprays evenly and sufficiently. HF also has cheap, but very serviceable guns for people with larger compressors.

The Earlex 5500 has kinda found a niche among amateur woodworkers because its a nice, extremely capable turbine for a reasonable price. I'd love to have one, but I keep waffling on just getting a bigger compressor (space issues be dammed). I have experience with such setups but keep putting off that decision…the HF turbine just won't break. lol.

I've just adjusted viscosity by feel, but others use viscosity cups. Regardless, I just consider that smaller needles around 1mm to 1.5mm handle thinner finishes and oil stains, 2mm to 2.5mm handle thick stuff like latex, and those in between handle most regular non-thinned finishes, like poly, shellac, and water-based stains. When you spray too many things using the wrong needle, you figure it out after a while. It kinda goes back to what people have been saying, this stuff is not rocket science and we often try to make it more difficult than it is…but we fight against misperceptions and bad marketing, making it way too easy to screw things up.


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

lexx they are correct,if you have a turbine only gun , unless you have a gun that can use compressed air, as well My Apollo I can use either, but you can buy almost 2 Earlexs for what the gun alone cost'
can you post a picture of the guns or tell me what they are , your saying HVLP but many are the gravity fed which uses compressed air, or you can get a gravity fed any where from 30.00 up that uses compressed air


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## lexxx07 (Feb 8, 2012)

I will send a photo in about 2.5hrs when i get to the shop.


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## JGM0658 (Aug 16, 2011)

how much trouble is it to add a little of the stain/dye into some finish to allow the stain to work to full potential?

Cosmicsniper, my personal experience has been that adding dye or stain to the finish does not give a "natural" result. In other words the color looks "on top" of the surface rather than on the wood itself. Also don't take offense on TCC's statement. He is correct in the sense that those of us who do this for a living usually look for faster applications that are not necessarily cheaper. For example if you post the question which is the best finish for outside or exposed wood you invariably get the answer marine spar. There are other finishes, mainly catalyzed polyurethanes that are clearer and sometimes better suited for the type of work. These are not cheap though.

I think it was mentioned before, but not all gel stains are created equal. I found Minwax gel stains terrible to use. Charles Neil has a good free video on "popping the wood", you should take a look at it, I think this is where he uses a gel stain and the roofing tar, I am not sure, he would be the better person to say.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

Mike if the inlet on your gun is the size of an air hose inlet it will work fine. If it is the size of a garden hose then that is a turbine system. Keep at it my friend I am sure you will be Okay now.


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

Jorge,
I rarely use any sort of stain, mostly I use dyes , especially for popping the grain, I do use the tar stuff for walnut and other brown applications, it acts like a dye and allows me to get the color I want so I dont have to use a tone spray, i also do not like the toned apperance.
I teach so many classes and understand that the average guy doesnt have any of the below and the post cat products are definately not something you want to use or spray in your home, so we try to stick with the wipe on and water base products, which I also use alot of.
All of this said to reaffirm that doing it for a living is a huge difference in both equiptment and products .

Like you I make my living doing wood work, as I type this I am inbetween coat's of a cherry raised panel desk, I started last friday and will deliver on Thursday , am shooting a post cat conversion varnish with a Kremlin air assisted airless , super fast and effective and come thursday the finish will be fully cured, but I also have a large dedicated spray booth and all the fixins.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

My next shed will be a dedicated spray booth should be pretty cool I will have it outside in the back yard but it will be as nice as the shop is I will even drywall it so it is going to be insulated and have the huge exhaust fan built in. I think a booth is a must although I do have good luck spraying out on the driveway.


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## JGM0658 (Aug 16, 2011)

I rarely use any sort of stain, mostly I use dyes

You guys have it so good in the US. Impossible to get dyes easily in mexico. The best you can do is get alcohol based stains. Which are mainly based on dyes.


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

Jorge,

I agree totally and I understand your issue with color in the finish, though it takes a good eye to know the difference.

But people live daily among items where the color is applied mostly in the finish, whether that be our kitchen cabinets or our Ikea laminated furniture. That's "normal" for many people. So what you say looks unnatural is perhaps what people EXPECT to see in their wood. DIYers can apply a stain, then a clear finish, and when it doesn't look like their perception they might think, "What the bleep"?

"NO," they say, "That's not what I was looking for."

I go back to the issue here with the orignal poster where the stain was applied and didn't achieve the intensity desired. We know this happens all the time if the work is sanded too finely or a pre-conditioner is used, or the wood is too finely grained. In those cases, it doesn't take much stain in the first layer of finish to recover the intended color. Allow SOME of that color to lay atop to complete the job. The rest was already IN the wood, probably because it had some dye in it. After that, you'd finish as normal. I'd argue that in that situation, you probably couldn't tell the difference…it's too subtle.

But the rest of the advice here was to forgo the stain and do something different…perhaps using a different product. Sanding back or using steel wool is great advice because it can help to eliminate surface blotching with the pigmented stain. But what after that?

MY advice let's you achieve what you originally wanted without adding a bunch of new products and decisions to the mix. I got upset earier because my "processes" were perceived to be more difficult, even though I only gave a "process (singular)" involving one little tiny extra step. I was accused of not knowing the KISS principle, yet everybody else is talking about a solution using alternative products. (!)

What is easier? What non-professional has actually tried it? Perhaps, in this Ikea-age perspective, that solution is EXACTLY what they were looking for?

I just don't think it's helpful when professionals come on here and opine how stupid all us amateur hobbyists are because we do things different than they do. Of course we do…we work with what we have. But it's insulting and not helpful. Aside from guys like Charles Neil, who I greatly respect and have learned a lot from, my experience is that most "pros" only do it a certain way because that's their job…to spray with company equipment, company products, and company techniques without a freaking clue as to why.

Necessity is the mother of invention…I'd take the advice from people who learned out of NECESSITY before I ever listen to those who do it because they have a business card.

To me, it becomes a question of how you best solve the problem…and I have still yet to see anybody else post a working solution to the problem. Oh, but we certainly know who the "pros" are.


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## lexxx07 (Feb 8, 2012)

Here is what I will be Spraying zinser Universal Sanding sealer, Rustoleum water based Poly, Rustoleum oil based stain what would be the recomende needle sizes, and how do i know when to thin and how thin to make something.


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## lexxx07 (Feb 8, 2012)

So I finally found some General Finishes Water Based stain and man it wast the joint. However this stuff absorbs quickly so I have to learn to control the absorption rate. But I still have the dark blotches that i would like to minimize. What do you think guy's.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

CosmicSnyper I work in my own shop I own it and I am a pro woodworker. That does not make me a laborer who dose what he is told. Nor do I strive to do things the way armatures do. But rather I do things the best way I know how and I continue to read and study this craft. I do not think a woodworker is worse or better because he is a pro I think it is all learned skills . I feel anyone trained properly can learn the craft. The only thing that is more a talent is design and even that can be taught to a degree.


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## TCCcabinetmaker (Dec 14, 2011)

I find myself posting alot in finishing type topics, kind of surprises me because I have never considered myself an expert on the subject but it is really a simple thing to get to go right, and easily as simple of a topic to have things go wrong on. what usually messes me up is on super complicated finishes in which I am required to mix different types of finishes such as oil, alcohol, and wax. Admittedly this was not my idea, but touch up was impossible.

That's why you have to keep it simple. Even in production work, the simpler you keep it the better it usually turns out. as for toning, well it has to be done right. Sure they tone the cabinets from home depot or lowes for a finish, but well if you really look at them, you can tell that's what they did. You see the cross grain sanding scratches on their panels where they ran them through a wide belt and didn't touch them up, you see the glue in the joints and pretty much every other flaw. Not what a guy who does this for a living wants in his work imho, but then I also have a large collection of stains, and yes, i have glazed a product twice after the original sealed stain to get a color that someone desired. I hated that process it was too complicated therefore it was also too costly.

And cosmicsniper I seriously wasn't trying to offend you, I think you needed to read the whole thread before contributing, because lexx was just about clear on what he needed to do by the time you posted.

Lexx, what you are looking for in a compressor is scfm for an hlvp gun. Look up your gun and see how much scfm it requires, then go back and luck up your compressor and see if it has enough, most of the time an 80 gallon compressor will have more than enough scfm to keep up with a hlvp spray gun. <scfm>


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## TCCcabinetmaker (Dec 14, 2011)

Lexx from what I see that looks mostly good, you have something that looks to me like smudges from your rag, be careful to wipe all the way through and check for heavy stain spots, and wipe them out thouroughly. As for the panel it's darker because plywood will absorb quicker than solid wood even of the same type, that's why I normally thin the stain for a panel, and stain and seal them before assembly, which doesn't appear to be an option from the picture. It takes a little more time but I think it's worth it for consistancy. But most of your customers will not be as choosy as I, so that is more than good, also when you apply your sealer, the stain "should" pull into the sealer a little and even out. Can't guarantee it as I haven't used the products you've settled on, but the customer is going to be happy with that.

P.s cosmic I too work for myself, I did work for someone but I always impressed the peope I worked for by asking the right questions, such as why do it this way? One of my former bosses practically never did things the same way very often, and I learned alot from him. But that said I do know why I do things the way I do them. And honestly company equipment is mine as well as the materials, sooo it's just a matter of us having done a bit more research as to figure out where to get products. Being in alabama, I actually get alot of products from out of state, from companies that will deliver them to me when needed and have taken the time to research where to find products, some of my conections took me quite a bit of time to develop because I had to research for days if not weeks to find them, in some cases those connections took months to build. But you can do that to.


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## lexxx07 (Feb 8, 2012)

I would like to thank everyone for their advice on the subject you guy's helped out alot.


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## lexxx07 (Feb 8, 2012)

Finally Done Guys
Thanx for everything!!!!!


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

Nice work Mike, you have come a long way in a short time. your work has improved with each step and you should be proud of the job you have done. The next thing you need to do is work on your drawer boxes. For inexpensive cabinets there are joints to use that will make your drawer boxes faster and better than how you made these. But it is a process a wise man once told me always be learning. I was always fond of those words its all about life long education.


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

Congrats Lexxx07, good job.


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## Henry6 (Nov 6, 2012)

If your stain isn't taking well, you may want to try a prepping product to make sure the wood is ready for the stain you are applying. I would check out Storm System. It's a new line of exterior finishes that has a really good wood stripper…hope this helps!


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