# Starrett combination square vs. craftsman



## johndeereb (Jan 29, 2015)

Im searching for a gift for my Dad's birthday again. One of the tools my Dad uses the most is a combination square. He has an old craftsman one that has served him well. Was wondering if a Starrett one would be a worthwhile gift? It's hard to tell without seeing them both at the same time. What do you think? Am I spending money on something that will really work better? Thanks for any help.


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## johndeereb (Jan 29, 2015)

http://www.woodcraft.com/product/05E10/pfeil-swiss-made-7-sweep-gouge-35-mm-full-size.aspx

Or thinking of one of these, he likes to make spoons, chairs etc.


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## Bill_Steele (Aug 29, 2013)

I think Starrett is a really good brand, they are known for accuracy.

Several years ago I bought a 12" combination square from Bridge City Toolworks-a fantastic tool. Their tools are very expensive, but they are also art. An accurate combination square is very useful to have around the shop.

I have a Starrett 4 inch double square that I find very useful. I rarely use my expensive combination square now that I have this square. I like the smaller size-it's more convenient/easier to use.

I also think another useful gift would be a simple pocket ruler like this. I have this ruler and find that I use it alot. I especially like the gradations along the edge/side. I find them useful in setting the height of router bits.

My final suggestion is to get him a set of dial calipers. I have an inexpensive dial caliper that I bought at Home Depot. I like the fact that it measures in 1/64" increments rather than a digital measurement. I find myself using this tool alot.

Hope that helps!


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## hotbyte (Apr 3, 2010)

Sorry to "invade" a thread, but I really like that little 6" ruler from Lee Valley. I can't recall seeing graduations on the end like that.

Also, how do you like that dial caliper? I was looking at it a few weeks back in HD and wonder how well the plastic seems to hold up. i have a digital and seems batteries just don't last very long


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## SirIrb (Jan 12, 2015)

Starrett is better than the majority or other tools that fall in this same area. So, yeah, buy it.

@hotbyte: As a son of a machinest, former model maker and a Design Engineer I have never been able to read the digital calipers as well as dial calipers. And the batteries in dial calipers last forever.


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## Bill_Steele (Aug 29, 2013)

@hotbyte: It's fine-go ahead and "hijack" this thread -I'm not sure when I bought my caliper-maybe 5 years ago-it still works very well-not broken or damaged in any way. The outside of the dial will turn (if needed) to set the caliper to 0 (or whatever you want). I don't need to do this often-usually it's just if I accidentally move it. There are no batteries-I think SirIrb was being sarcastic. I'm gentle on tools-so they usually last me a long time. This caliper came in a clear plastic case that I still use to store the caliper.

My test on whether a tool is good or not (for me) is whether I would buy it again-I would buy this again.


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## hotbyte (Apr 3, 2010)

Thanks and thanks…and I like the battery comment for dial calipers


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## SirIrb (Jan 12, 2015)

Serious, gents, I can really read-mentally compute?-the dials over the digital. I wasn't shooting for sarcasm. Which is a shame because I consider sarcasm an art-form.


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## TravisH (Feb 6, 2013)

The square would be nice if he will use it. I have known a lot of guys (usually older) that got a lot better quality tools for gifts but were stuck in the "good enough" mentality of what they used so the new tools stayed boxed up on a shelf.


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## KevinL (Sep 14, 2014)

I do not know if they still are, but craftsman combination squares used to be made by Scherr-Tumico in St James, MN. They also made things for Snap On, NAPA, Brown & Sharpe Quality Line and many others. I toured there many years ago as a student. Everything was engraved and then used a laser to "darken" the engraved lines.

While I do not own any Craftsman squares, I do own Starrett, Mitutoyo, & B&S squares. If Craftsman are still made by ST Industries, they are a quality tool.

ST Industries big thing today is optical comparators and video inspection systems. At the time I was a student, the federal government bought mics and measuring equipment from them so that there would be at least two companies (them and Starrett) that still manufactured mics in the USA.

When ever I purchase a new square, I get forged heads vs. cast ones. If you are working around sheet metal, the cast heads wear out a lot faster. With wood, it should not be a problem.

Just my 2 cents.


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## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

Incra: precision marking square - invest in an .5mm pencil!
6" rule:









Unless some think this is too precise …

M


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## RB61 (Nov 30, 2012)

> I do not know if they still are, but craftsman combination squares used to be made by Scherr-Tumico in St James, MN. They also made things for Snap On, NAPA, Brown & Sharpe Quality Line and many others. I toured there many years ago as a student. Everything was engraved and then used a laser to "darken" the engraved lines.
> 
> While I do not own any Craftsman squares, I do own Starrett, Mitutoyo, & B&S squares. If Craftsman are still made by ST Industries, they are a quality tool.
> 
> ...


Yep. Still in St. James, but I don't know if everything is still made there.


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## rick1955 (Jun 26, 2014)

http://www.grizzly.com/products/4-pc-Combination-Square-12-/G5726
I have a Mitutoyo 4 piece combo square and several Starrets and the Grizzly is every good as them. For $35 you can't beat it.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

I used to believe that Starrett, B&S, Mitutoyo, etc. were overkill for woodworking but last year I started buying high quality brands like those mentioned above and it has changed how I think about tools. Now I'm gradually replacing everything with much higher quality stuff. Another option if you want a US made high quality combo square without paying Starrett money, check out Harry J Epstein. He sells blemished PEC squares for a good price.


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## cdelva (Jan 15, 2016)

My dad had a 12" Starrett combo square that I used all the time when we were still sharing a shop. A 12" Starrett combo square and 6" Starrett dial caliper were the first tools I invested in for my own shop. I love both of them and use them all the time. I would not even consider purchasing another brand of combo square.


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## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

Can't beat Starrett combo squares. Don't get me wrong, there are excellent squares of high precision out there for lower cost. But I have never found one that has the right geometry, heft and balance to suit me. If you do buy the starrett, get one with the satin chrome blade with 4R graduations. It's the only square I have that I can actually read the 1/64" increments on. Also the cast iron versions are just fine for wood but if he does any significant amount of metal work, you'll want the hardened steel head.

Here's another thought, get him a size he doesn't have. If his Cman is 12" and he uses it and is happy with it, get a 6" Starrett (or 24" if your feeling especially generous). That way he doesn't have to banish 'ol faithful to the drawer of forgotten tools and he has a new tool instead of a replacement.

And, trust me, when you get the Cman square in one hand and the Starrett in the other, you can most definitely tell the difference and see where the extra $ went.


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## OggieOglethorpe (Aug 15, 2012)

A Starrett square makes a great gift…

PEC are good, with nice markings. I have a few and like them, but our local woodworking school found that they can vary in quality. As a gift, I'd still give a Starrett.

I think too many folks get hung up on the accuracy needed for woodworking being the only think that matters. To me, accurate is only the bare minimum, and many cheaper examples are plenty accurate. My combo square is easily my most used tool. Besides checking 90 and 45 degrees, and measuring, I also use it for depth settings and measurements, offset marking and measuring, thickness measurements, board division, go-no/go comparisons, checking for flat, and more. A combo square can replace many other gadgets sold in catalogs, just by learning to use it.

Reasons I like Starrett squares over cheaper examples, in no particular order:
- Super easy to read markings, and you can choose the marks you prefer.
- Corrosion resistance
- Dependable and positive blade locking
- Super smooth sliding action
- The "feel" of the tool
- The availability of accessories. I have 6, 12, 18, and 24" blades, some in inch and metric scales, and a protractor head. Lots of this stuff can be found in good, used condition.
- Many choices for scale combinations, and super easy interchangeability. For example, working with a Festool Domino is a lot easier with a metric blade. 
- Choice of blade finish. The satin chrome version takes pencil marks well.

I agree with SirIRB about the calipers… I have both styles, and often find the dial version easier to read than digital, especially with repetitive checks. You can rotate the face so the target is straight up, and know that "there" is where you want to be, maybe even set it from a test example or standard. In woodworking, the "standard" is often the first part. It's also easy to note the variance, as one line in either direction is easier on the brain than absolute numbers.

Lots of work is relative, where we really don't care about the numbers, just that things are the same or very close. An analog caliper or dependably locked combo square are great for this task.


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## OggieOglethorpe (Aug 15, 2012)

*Incra: precision marking square - invest in an .5mm pencil!*

Not too precise, just a one trick pony…


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## WhoMe (Jul 9, 2009)

A slightly different suggestion, instead of a Starrett combo square, what about another square/gauge that expands his tool selection. Has he expressed wanting or needing another type tool. Like a different sized combo square, bevel gauge, dovetail marker, marking knife , accurate straight edge or other marking and measuring tools. If he has always used his craftsman and not complained about the accuracy, it might meet all his needs.
You could check out vendors like Woodpeckers, Incra or Lee Valley/Veritas. They all make quality making and measuring tools too.
In my case, have a good accurate 12" combo square but sometimes it is too large or not the tool I need. If I got a different accurate tool that I need, I would be a happy camper.


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## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

'OggieOglethorpe, 'not too precise'?! WTF? Have you ever *used* an incra marking square? Obviously not.

The standard incra has pencil holes every 1/64", 1/32", & 1/16". It makes marking trivial and is a very accurate square. No matter what brand you buy accuracy is all that counts.

OggieOglethorpe what do you suggest that is *more* precise?


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

I would go with the best known brand, Starrett, because it can also be used for properly setting up the tools in the shop.


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## Tim457 (Jan 11, 2013)

> OggieOglethorpe, not too precise ?! WTF? Have you ever *used* an incra marking square? Obviously not.
> - MadMark


He was responding to your earlier post where you said:



> Unless some think this is too precise …


and said:



> Not too precise, just a one trick pony…
> - OggieOglethorpe


In other words, the he doesn't think it's too precise, just that it is a one trick Pony.


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## hotbyte (Apr 3, 2010)

> A slightly different suggestion, instead of a Starrett combo square, what about another square/gauge that expands his tool selection.


Great suggestion! Expand, don't replace if he is happy with existing combo square…


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

Not too particular, not too precise, just a cheeseburger in paradise!


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## johndeereb (Jan 29, 2015)

Thanks so much for all the replies! It seems the Starrett brand would make for a great present. I think it's a good idea to find something a little different, then it's not like his faithful craftsman gets put to the side. I'm into woodworking myself, and have only ever used a 12". I'm on the beginner level though haha.

Maybe the 6" would be a good idea? It's probably a whole other topic, but do most of you guys use just 1 size or the other?


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## greenacres2 (Jun 18, 2012)

Bill Steele mentioned the 4" Double Square. I picked up an old (but still accurate) Starrett double square-didn't know if i'd use it, but it was a Starrett and only $5 shipped. Use it all the time and would now be willing to pay much more if i had to replace it. Handy little tool.
earl


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## OggieOglethorpe (Aug 15, 2012)

*'OggieOglethorpe, 'not too precise'?! WTF? Have you ever used an incra marking square? Obviously not.*

I have, and I meant "not too precise to use"...

Again, a one trick pony… A good combo square spends an awful lot of the session in my hand, and is just as precise as the Incra. All one needs to do is lock the square blade at the desired distance, and use the end of the blade to make the mark. Bingo! As accurate as the Incra, and able to draw lines parallel to the edge, just like the Incra, but I don't have to swap tools to do a bunch of other stuff.


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## OggieOglethorpe (Aug 15, 2012)

*Maybe the 6" would be a good idea? It's probably a whole other topic, but do most of you guys use just 1 size or the other?*

I generally use the 6" more than my 12", because it fits my apron pocket, but the 12" is more versatile, as all the other length blades and accessories fit the wider blade that goes in the 12" head. There is a 6" blade that fits the 12" head.

I'd buy the 12 first, and would have simply added the 6" wide blade if I had known it existed when I bought the smaller 6. The 12 will do 99% of what the 6 will, but the 6 is actually pretty limited on it's own.


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## Joel_B (Aug 14, 2014)

> Incra: precision marking square - invest in an .5mm pencil!
> 6" rule:
> 
> 
> ...


I have one of those, love it.


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## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

> Thanks so much for all the replies! It seems the Starrett brand would make for a great present. I think it s a good idea to find something a little different, then it s not like his faithful craftsman gets put to the side. I m into woodworking myself, and have only ever used a 12". I m on the beginner level though haha.
> 
> Maybe the 6" would be a good idea? It s probably a whole other topic, but do most of you guys use just 1 size or the other?
> 
> - johndeereb


My 12" has a permanent spot on my bench and is definitely most used. BUT my 6" is always in my pocket so it's sees a ton of work too. If I could only have 1, it would be 12" but I'm glad I'm not limited to 1 and I think that he'll find the 6" much more useful on smaller pieces and will like having one he can drop in his apron or pocket.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

I have a Lufkin 4" that I use constantly. I don't think I'd use a 6" that much. A 24" would be handy too.


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## realcowtown_eric (Feb 4, 2013)

If it's an older craftsman, and if you can pull up a catalog number for it, I think the sears catalog number generally indicated the manufacturer, so it may well be a starrett in disguise. In years gone by, sears used to sell top notch tools under their brand names instead of imported crap. If you find the cataolg number in some online retro catalog, call sears parts and ask them what they can tell you.

If it's fairly old (50+ YEARS, my bet would be that it was quality
regardless who made it..

I love Starrett, but also Browne and Sharp, Lufkin, Rabone -offshore mfgrs maybe not familiar to my American buddies

Eric in Calgary

Precision is precision regardless of whom made or flogged it.


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## Shadowrider (Feb 2, 2015)

As a 20+ year machinist I've used almost all of the common tools Starrett offers and still own several items even though I've been out of it for awhile. But there just isn't anything that screams quality like Starrett vernier scales (height gages, calipers etc.)

You can think of Starrett as the Lie-Nielsen of machinist tools.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

> ...so it may well be a starrett in disguise. In years gone by, sears used to sell top notch tools under their brand names instead of imported crap.
> - realcowtown_eric


Well that's overstating things a bit. Starrett is Starrett, I don't believe there are any in disguise. I don't think they even allow their blemished goods to be sold. I just sold a vintage Craftsman 12" combo square, cast iron head, level, scribe; and it wasn't any better than the plastic head piece of crap sold by Sears today. I also own 3 Stanley try squares and they are okay but nothing to write home about. Every Stanley square I've seen has a stamped blade with stamped numbers. Whereas the better squares, Starrett, Lufkin, etc., will have hardened tool steel rules with etched and inked numbers. I believe the Starretts are even adjustable in case they ever go out of square.


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

> I don t think they even allow their blemished goods to be sold.
> - Rick M.


They used to. I live 40 minutes from Starrett. They used to sell functionally perfect but cosmetically blemished items at the factory a few items a year. I built up a nice collection of products at about half the retail price. Unfortunately, this has been discontinued. Maybe they are now completely perfect at manufacturing!

The so-called blemishes were usually invisible to me. Sometimes they were even highlighted with a red marker and I still could not see them.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

Most Starrett tools were made for machinists and related professions. They have a fine reputation for quality and accuracy and a Starrett miter square would make a great gift for any woodworker. I still have the one that I bought back in the 70's.

helluvawreck aka Charles
http://woodworkingexpo.wordpress.com


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

> They used to. I live 40 minutes from Starrett. They used to sell functionally perfect but cosmetically blemished items at the factory a few items a year.
> - ChuckV


Ah, good to know. Maybe they still sell them to employees, or maybe they are destroyed. I'm in the process of replacing all the squares in my shop. Not sure if I want to spring for Starretts but I do want good quality American made squares. I might try those PECs at Harry Epstein.


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## RandyinFlorida (Sep 27, 2012)

+1 for MadMark's suggestion. I have several INCRA products. Love 'em.


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## Gentile (Jun 3, 2013)

I love my Starret!
This was on the TV the other day…


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## jtriggs (Dec 13, 2007)

As an aside of interest only to me, the mention of ST Ind. in St. James brings back memories. I worked for a fiberglass shop back in the 80s and built the model and mold for one of their comparator housings. I was in their plant several times fine tuning the designs with the engineers responsible. Good times.

I still live only 25 miles away from St. James, MN.


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## Cooler (Feb 3, 2016)

I have two Starretts, a 12" and a mini. They are perfectly square and very nicely made even though the little scribe thing always falls out.

I also have a cheap square that I bought at Lowes. It is also perfectly square but I had to pick it out of the lot to find one that was square. You can test a square for squareness. Just bring along a 12" x 16" sheet of 1/4" ply with at least one cleanly cut edge.

Place the square on the clean edge and draw a line down the ruler. Flip the square over and check to see if it aligns perfectly with the line. If it does align, it is square. If it does not, try the next one. I think I went through 5 before I found one that was perfectly square. But the square only cost about $10.00 so it was worth the effort.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

You can never go wrong with Starrett, Brown&Sharp or Mitutoyo.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

> I went through 5 before I found one that was perfectly square.
> - Cooler


They didn't mind you tearing open all the squares and drawing on their plywood?


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## Cooler (Feb 3, 2016)

> I went through 5 before I found one that was perfectly square.
> - Cooler
> 
> They didn t mind you tearing open all the squares and drawing on their plywood?
> ...


I did say "bring along a piece of plywood…".

The squares had little hang tabs and he did not interfere with the test. Of course I could have bought and returned squares until I found one that was accurate…


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

Just curious because I was going to buy an Empire combo square but there was no way to test them without tearing open the packaging. Right then I decided why buy a tool designed for accuracy when you can't trust it out of the box so I bought a Blue Point combo which was dead nutz. It cost me about 3X the cost of an Empire but it is also more substantial and feels like a quality tool.

Quick tip: quickest way to test a square is with another known good square.


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## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

> ...
> Quick tip: quickest way to test a square is with another known good square.
> 
> - Rick M.


Another quick tip… The chances that two squares are out the exact same amount in the same direction are extremely remote. So, checking 2 squares against each other, even if neither is known to be good, is a reliable method as well. So basically if you compared all of the squares in the big box and found 2 that matched up, those 2 would both be square (or a statistical outlier).


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## Cooler (Feb 3, 2016)

> ...
> Quick tip: quickest way to test a square is with another known good square.
> 
> - Rick M.
> ...


How do you match them up? You need a straight edge for the both to rest on.


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## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

> How do you match them up? You need a straight edge for the both to rest on.
> 
> - Cooler


Just extend one fully (so it's like a try-square) and register the fences together face-to-face. Then butt the blades against one another and look for light between the blades.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

I think tools are always a great gift….

Just one thought - - does he have a "special attachment" to the old craftsman? like was that a gift from His father? or is "the first tool he bought".


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## xeddog (Mar 2, 2010)

If your combo square is a combo almost-square, you can always tweak it yourself. I have an older Craftsman combo square that is maybe 20 years old. When I got it, it was off a little. I cleaned out the slot that the rule rides in and did a little careful filing of the "pads" that the rule rides on, and now is really is a combo SQUARE.

Wayne


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

You could also make one of these and take it to the store.


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## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

Don't you need 3 contact points for that guy to work Rick?


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

Yes.


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## BinghamtonEd (Nov 30, 2011)

> Maybe the 6" would be a good idea? It s probably a whole other topic, but do most of you guys use just 1 size or the other?
> 
> - johndeereb


I have a 12", a 16", and (3) 6" combination squares. I almost never use the 12 and 16 inch squares, unless I'm trying to mark a cross-cut on a wider board. I find that the tasks that I use the combination square for, mostly joinery layout, rarely exceed the limits of the 6". The 6" ones are easier to handle, and fit in my apron. I have 3, because at any given time, I'm usually keeping at least one set so I can reproduce a mark later, I've misplaced one, and that leaves me one to use.


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