# Business question



## Harry4386 (Jul 17, 2018)

Hey guys, new here, first post. I am going to be starting a woodworking business soon. Currently reading some textbooks, watching videos etc. I want to make dining tables, dressers, bed frames etc. So it makes sense to make bed frame dresser sets eventually. Since I'm going to be doing dining tables, should I also be making dining chairs? If I am to make them, is my best bet having only a couple designs which I master, and just change up the finishes to match the table? I mean rather than probably struggling with a bunch of complex chair designs, from what I see, chairs look pretty finicky once the designs get a bit more complex. So my question is should I be specializing with making a couple nice elegant fairly simple to build designs or stay away from chairs and just sell the tables? I imagine I should be able to make a bit more money with full sets eventually, once I nail down the processes.

Also, I'm a mechanical engineer that can't find work in my field, figured I'd create my own work doing something I know I will enjoy, so I'm not just looking for a get rich quick scheme but just want to ensure I succeed by having a good plan, knowledge, and work hard.

Thanks.


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## Mahdeew (Jul 24, 2013)

I would first do some research about your business. Is there enough demand for high end quality furniture in your area? Shipping cost can be tremendous and time consuming as most any furniture you make has to be crated. 
Time, material, and overhead has to be calculated to the price of furniture. With high end furniture comes high demands so you may have to have a website and possibly a physical gallery. Most buyers of these type of furniture will look at what you have and want modifications made. Customer may say, "can you make me a dining room table like this one but with a lighter color wood, a little wider and the chars should have captain back". Demands like that put the maker in custom builder category which can be very stressful based on customer's timeline. If what you make is not appreciated, you will more likely get negative reviews and that can really affect your business. You will have to do quarterly tax reports, maintain a travel log, estimate you depreciation on your machinery and all that accounting jazz. 
For me, the hobby is wonderful because it is therapeutic and stress reliever from my day job. 
It can be done if you have enough resources and can make high quality furniture and some how get your name out there (have Oprah, Martha, other celebrities promote your product, donate to smithsonian, etc.).
I am not sure where you live but I believe TX can be good location for a person with your degree.
Good luck


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

Besides the large pieces, which will be slow movers, look at some smaller items. I do residential doors, and when an order comes in, it's generally for a house full of doors, which adds up to some serious cash. Often the orders come in groups, since customers like to show off their new doors and that generates more orders. I also go for months at a time with no orders.

I fill in by making smaller pieces that sell in the $30 to $300 range. Items like that are always in demand for gifts, etc. They are also suitable for sale at craft shows where a ton of money can be made. I've managed to get pieces into retail settings. That provides a good quantity of sales, but it's at a wholesale price, so I get less per piece. You also need to consider what wholesale pricing is worth it for you. Retailers all want keystone pricing, but for some items with a large material and labor cost, that's just not practical.

On the opposite end of the residential door scale, I make premium chopsticks. I have gotten them into specialty shops in Santa Fe and Taos, where they retail for $40. Even with keystone pricing, that's a good markup for a tiny bit of wood, although the labor is substantial since they are 100% hand crafted.

In summary, offer quality furniture, but have smaller items to fill in the dead times. Look into wholesaling and craft shows. I'm fortunate that my wife is a retired marketing executive, and she is the one who got my stuff into the stores. It's also good to have a representative who can talk up your work for you.


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## Harry4386 (Jul 17, 2018)

I'm near the GTA (Toronto) so would likely just deliver the stuff myself. Would be making it just to sell it at first to get some pictures and everything. Will be using all the online resources, Facebook, Pinterest, Etsy, website etc.


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## John Smith_inFL (Dec 15, 2017)

Rule of Thumb: never let anyone see the work that you yourself are not proud of.

best of luck in all your endeavors

.

.


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## enazle (May 18, 2018)

Rich is giving you some really sage advice. There are different levels of woodwork firms as far a quality and capacity. Successful firms seam to grow into their own niche through a common path. From production cabinetry to bouquet furniture makers, they all have to generate enough sales to stay in business. The problem the custom furniture maker has is attracting enough commissions where price is not an object. Rich has created a custom door business which is an offshoot of Architectural woodworking. Premium Grade Architectural woodwork projects include everything from the doors, frames, casings and wood base molding all the way up to the Reception, the secretarial and Associate's workstations to the Boardroom table and chairs. If you can find a niche as Rich pointed out, you will be able to get bigger and bigger pieces of the project. I remember many little $20,000 jobs we farmed out to former employees that are perfect examples of jobs that had the potential to lead to other jobs. Get out and introduce yourself with as many interior contractors as you can. Find out who in your area does prefinished Premium Grade woodwork and show them your work and ask them for leads. If your a 1 or 2 man shop, you may be a perfect sub for them?

I would also suggest you learn how to spray finish and do/make finish samples. Giving a potential customer a high quality sample of your finish is the best calling card I ever found. I remember several jobs where the decision was made by the customer to pay more to our firm because our finishing process.

Good luck, if you have any questions shoot me a message.


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## woodbutcherbynight (Oct 21, 2011)

Some sage advice from some knowledgeable people above.

One thing to remind yourself going in, mistakes will happen, some really bad and possibly have to start over at a loss. Try not to think your going to get $20,000 first few times out.

I have a good friend from the Marines. He started in his garage 25 years ago making cabinets for people local. Then got a big job that took alot of capitol and time. That went well, but was stressful for him. That job led to another big one and now 25 years later he ONLY makes custom order stuff well over $50,000 a hit. No website, no employees, does it all by himself. Works out of a converted 3 story firehouse last 15 years. And takes 4-6 weeks off a year. If you met him you would never know, very low key and just takes life like it is.

2 things, 1. he stayed at it even when it was very hard. 2. guy never got married.

LOL


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## Chashint (Aug 14, 2016)

Where are you located ?


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## tomsteve (Jan 23, 2015)

firstly, i wouldnt by a new table without chairs.
secondly, i personally dont like having to look through and decide on a bajillion choices of one certain product.


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## Harry4386 (Jul 17, 2018)

I'm around Peterborough, not far from the GTA.

So that's one question I had. Would I be able to sell a nice wood table without chairs if it's sufficiently cheap? Seems like a touch place to start trying to build an entire table and chair set for the first thing I build, would take some time.


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

> Hey guys, new here, first post. I am going to be starting a woodworking business soon. Currently reading some textbooks, watching videos etc. I want to make dining tables, dressers, bed frames etc. So it makes sense to make bed frame dresser sets eventually. Since I m going to be doing dining tables, should I also be making dining chairs? If I am to make them, is my best bet having only a couple designs which I master, and just change up the finishes to match the table? I mean rather than probably struggling with a bunch of complex chair designs, from what I see, chairs look pretty finicky once the designs get a bit more complex. So my question is should I be specializing with making a couple nice elegant fairly simple to build designs or stay away from chairs and just sell the tables? I imagine I should be able to make a bit more money with full sets eventually, once I nail down the processes.


Please take this as constructive I'm not trying to discourage you but the vast, vast majority of consumers looking for a dining tables, dressers and headboards are going to a furniture store, not a furniture maker. Its a very tough business to start because of the extremely limited market willing to pay a premium for custom woodworking and furniture.

Trust me, no way you can compete with $50 solid oak chairs from Ikea.

I am finishing up a trestle dining table I can tell you I have north of $500 invested in the lumber and probably 200 hours of my time. I would have to charge $4500 for the table to make $20/hr. And I haven't made the chairs yet!

What I'm saying is there's a reason why for every custom furniture maker there are, like 10,000 cabinet shops. I know a couple guys with shops making some furniture, but they all make there living in cabinet work. They both told me they lose money on furniture but do it because the love ww'ing. IOW the cabinet shop subsidizes their furniture making.



> Also, I m a mechanical engineer that can t find work in my field, figured I d create my own work doing something I know I will enjoy, so I m not just looking for a get rich quick scheme but just want to ensure I succeed by having a good plan, knowledge, and work hard.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> - Harry4386


What exactly does "create your own work" mean? There's no such thing as "build it and they will come" in woodworking :-D

Yes you need both a marketing and business plan. The analysis is what mahdee and rich said.

You're going to have up front capital investment to get things off the ground. My suggestion is to start building a portfolio, which means, start building some pieces. Doing this will help you with design, efficient production, and time. Have them professionally photographed. Get some brochures printed, start a website, Facebook etc.

You could target interior designers, high end builders, etc. You could show your pieces at an art fair or other venue like rent a booth at a home show.

And no, I wouldn't think you could sell a dining table without chairs.


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## Harry4386 (Jul 17, 2018)

> Please take this as constructive I m not trying to discourage you but the vast, vast majority of consumers looking for a dining tables, dressers and headboards are going to a furniture store, not a furniture maker. Its a very tough business to start because of the extremely limited market willing to pay a premium for custom woodworking and furniture.
> 
> Trust me, no way you can compete with $50 solid oak chairs from Ikea.
> 
> ...


create my own work i.e. start a business i can work in. so youre saying i cant just build something and sell it, but then at the end youre saying i need to build stuff and sell it to have a portfolio. basically i want to build something, table, table with chairs, whatever and put it on a plethora of social media accounts. and again, i dont care if i make much on the stuff i build to begin with. people seem to eat up unique furniture on pinterest, etc, so i think i need to go with something that will stand out and not just be a cookie cutter project.

good advice on reaching out to builders and interior designers, i will likely do that once i have some stuff built.

also, the tables at ikea are trash, im sure the chairs are too, but ya, 50-100 for a chair is cheap, but again, if i cant make a dining set that looks better than something from ikea, im probably in trouble doing any sort of work for money period.


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## JADobson (Aug 14, 2012)

Good luck with your endeavour. I have a full time job and am selling a few things on the side to make a little extra cash. I'm busy enough that I have a three month wait period right now but I'd never dream of leaving my job for it.

Don't underestimate Ikea - they are your direct competitor. You might think they are junk but millions of consumers would disagree with you.


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## eflanders (May 2, 2013)

Your product portfolio will be determined by your target customers /market. Your competitors will determine your pricing. Trying to learn what will sell at a decent profit is one of the hardest things to do in business. I've made both large pieces and small items trying to find a good niche at a price that makes it worthwhile. So far, while I have established a very good reputation, no particular product I've made so far has been definitive as a high demand niche product. Thus I have been unable to rely on the income derived so far to support myself on woodworking alone. Keep in mind that repeat sale items also mean repetitious work and you need to have a completely different work layout and process than doing one-off custom work.


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## Harry4386 (Jul 17, 2018)

well ikea is what it is, i need not compete with them. i need to be using designs, finishes and materials that will separate my work from theirs. part of the issue i guess is my income earning ability through employment is so low, i just dont see how i couldnt make 15-20$ an hour a while after i start doing it. my degree is essentially useless and id rather do woodworking over factory work. and if it doesnt work out, im going bankrupt anyway lol so it really doesnt matter. if i do fail but still make some good pieces, i could almost definitely make 20$ an hour at a cabinetmaking shop, given i can use cad and cam software.


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## Harry4386 (Jul 17, 2018)

I think Pinterest and the like are great for determining what people like, there's a lot of work on there that you aren't going to find at ikea that would be easy enough to build repeatedly.


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

> i just dont see how i couldnt make 15-20$ an hour a while after i start doing it.
> 
> i could almost definitely make 20$ an hour at a cabinetmaking shop, given i can use cad and cam software.
> 
> - Harry4386


1st off you should read through these blogs by Huff. (take the time) 
http://lumberjocks.com/huff/blog/36271


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## Harry4386 (Jul 17, 2018)

I'll check that out.


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## TungOil (Jan 16, 2017)

To your original question about chairs, I would recommend that you source unfinished chairs and finish to match your tables. Making chairs requires a completely different set of tooling and skill set if you want to be profitable. You need a large space to assemble them as well. All things you won't have starting out. My father ran a very successful cabinets and furniture shop in the 70's and 80's. He consistently said "we don't build chairs, no money in chairs". We had a few sources for unfinished chairs and simply outsourced them and finished to match the table.

The demand for custom work, as others have pointed out, will be in cabinets and custom built-ins, not furniture. I would suggest you learn to build nice boxes and bookcases and market yourself in that way. Custom furniture work will often come as a result of doing built-in's or a vanity for a happy client.

But I have to ask- why are you having trouble finding work as a ME? My undergrad is ME as well, ther always seems to be plenty of work here in the NJ/PA area.


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## Harry4386 (Jul 17, 2018)

That seems like a good idea. Chairs do seem like a pain in the ass aside from pumping out a couple simple designs.

The employment rate for engineers here is like 35%, another 30% doing work requiring education, and another 35% unemployed or underemployed. Economy is brutal. I had a factory job recently where I worked 50 hours a week for like 9 months, they ended up hiring 3 entry level me's from outside maybe they had a bit of cad experience or something but noone in Ontario will take the burden of training entry level engineers. My supervisor was not too happy as I was one of his hardest workers. I'd never pay for education ever again hence why I'm reading woodworking books. Just trying to do something I would like. I don't even apply anymore, out of 100 apps I'd get like 2 interviews maybe, all for less than 18$ an hour, not that I wouldn't work for min wage as an engineer, but I can't even get hired for that. And I went to McMaster which is top 4 or 5 in Canada not that it probably matters.

How hard would it be to direct traffic from social media to a website or Facebook page? I've seen some really cool tables where they are finished with a light burn to darken the grain and then stained an orangish colour. Looks really sharp with white painted base and would look amazing as a set. Pinterest has some really cool ideas that I could emulate easily enough and I know I would enjoy doing it. Built ins would be cool as well. I just like the idea of building my own business and doing engineeringish work.


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## TungOil (Jan 16, 2017)

If you want to go the social media route, one woodworker I know of ran a give away campaign for a farmhouse table. To enter, people had to share a link to his FB page with others. He got a ton of traffic and orders for several tables from his give-away. Something to consider.


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## tomsteve (Jan 23, 2015)

> I m around Peterborough, not far from the GTA.
> 
> So that s one question I had. Would I be able to sell a nice wood table without chairs if it s sufficiently cheap? Seems like a touch place to start trying to build an entire table and chair set for the first thing I build, would take some time.
> 
> - Harry4386


how about end tables or coffee tables?


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## Harry4386 (Jul 17, 2018)

I like the idea of a giveaway, that could work. Realistically no reason tonnes of people wouldn't see that.

Coffee table could work. Would give me practice turning legs too.


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## Kilo19 (Oct 13, 2017)

My sister in law told me to create a pinterest account and post my "projects in the past" up there. Link the picture to your website where you can have more info. Never got around to it, but sounded like a good idea.


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## Nubsnstubs (Aug 30, 2013)

I don't know what it takes to start a business in your area, GTA, (Canada?), but here in the US, it's a nightmare. Back in '78 when I first ventured into self employment, it took about 5 years to figure out if I was actually self employed of "working for the government." It seemed like at least once a month I was violating some regulation/ordinance/codes that were always lurking in the shadows, or something that was just initiated. Every one cost a yearly fee, and some had penalties attached.

What you need to do before you even cut your first piece of wood for your dream is too get over to all the government agencies and start asking questions about your venture.

I also absolutely loved woodworking until I made it my livelihood. From then on, it was just something I was good at, and today, I do only things that will me me a few bucks, or use my equipment to set up turning blanks. ....... Jerry (in Tucson)


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## Ripper70 (Nov 30, 2015)

> Would I be able to sell a nice wood table without chairs if it s sufficiently cheap? Seems like a touch place to start trying to build an entire table and chair set for the first thing I build, would take some time.
> 
> - Harry4386


I worked with a group in L.A. making dining tables from reclaimed barn wood that we sold to a storefront on Melrose Ave. A swanky little place that fetched about $3,000 for tables we sold to them for half that much. We had five guys working all day in an assembly line trying to keep up with demand. Never made a chair in my life.

Granted, this was 30 years ago when, I guess, "reclaimed barn wood" was plentiful and cheaper than it would be now. The selling point was the uniqueness of the tables and the quality of the build. They were eye catching and the customers ate them up.

We did eventually start making similarly constructed end tables and also did some commissioned work from time to time. For instance, the shop owner once sold a job to Bloomingdales where they ordered 50 pine, whitewashed display tables. Every table had curved, tapered legs. I can remember rough cutting those legs on the bandsaw for what seemed like 100 years and having the finished tables stacked up to the ceiling so thick there was hardly room to walk in the shop by the time they were finished.


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## bndawgs (Oct 21, 2016)

I would say if you want to get your feet wet in this endeavor, then go ahead and make something and post it for sale.

Keep track of your costs and time and then once you sell it, see how much you actually made per hr.

I have a friend who set up a business account and is thinking about trying to make his woodworking a side business. It's extremely hard to compete with Ikea or other stores that sell comparable items for a whole lot cheaper. Solid hardwood lumber costs a lot of money and unless you can get your costs way down, I don't see how you can really make a decent amount of money making solid furniture.


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## enazle (May 18, 2018)

Let me tell you about my uncle's business.He apprenticed as a cooper and wheelwright in the 30's, then worked on the Flying Fortress during Wwll. After the war he found work building speedboats where he became partners with a millionaire racer name Roy. Roy's wealth came from wildcatting for oil and consequently Roy was friends with the ultra wealthy oil families in Fort Worth and Dallas. Building one of Earl Flynn's many boats brought Roy and Uncle Allen notoriety with many celebrities as well. The thing was all their customers were such that price was never discussed. If someone ordered a piece it was assumed they could afford it. They kept track of their time and cost and charged appropriate prices.

I think these kind people still exist, maybe even more so than back then? I think if you can make spectacular pieces you will be able to charge whatever you want as long as it is reasonable to your customers.

Point being, they never built anything before someone requested it. I think building stuff beforehand is risky as I wouldn't do it.


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## HowardInToronto (Sep 27, 2013)

There are some good answers here.

But, rather than think "product" think "market." Especially if you're that close to cottage country.

You need to ask different questions. Good technical skills is the starting point but if you don't have anybody to sell things to, it's not a business.

I have some thoughts. Check your PM messages.

Howard


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## CWWoodworking (Nov 28, 2017)

> firstly, i wouldnt by a new table without chairs.
> secondly, i personally dont like having to look through and decide on a bajillion choices of one certain product.
> 
> - tomsteve


I will sell about 20-30 dining tables this year. I wouldn't touch a chair if you paid me good money. All those tables had a bench with it. sometimes 2.

Style is key here. The table I am speaking of is a farmhouse, rustic. The chairs dont matter. I sell it with a 2" thick solid top. the only thing people are looking at is the 150lbs of hardwood.


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## WoodenDreams (Aug 23, 2018)

There is a market for quality woodworking. Don't try to compete with the Box Stores. Let your quality stand out. One of the marketing things I do is make and donate a small toy box to all the local churches in the area, to be offered in a silent auction in their fund raisers. They do have brochures and business cards set out next to the piece at the fund raiser. Everybody in their congregation sees your work first hand. Also tell people you meet and talk to at craft shows that you offer this to the churches. It makes a good image for you. Be creative on your marketing. And stress your quality work. and refuse work that's not to your standards. I got lucky and got orders quickly. Don't expect you will get orders. you do need the small items (helps the cash flow) as well as the big items. Create a materials costs book. This helps you at a glance on what your materials costs (wood, hardware, etc.). Include a section in the costs of chasing down the materials. and a fixed costs section (utilities, tool replacement, sanding & finishing supply costs). Include a section of marketing costs (it's nice to know in advance the advertising costs (business cards, brochures, advertising). Buy your wood as you need it. You do need a business plan. You may want to keep a part time or full time job while trying to start a woodworking business.


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## Fresch (Feb 21, 2013)

Good luck! 
You might open an ice cream store if you are looking to make money.
Tables, maybe baby changing tables. Table and chairs is how I always hear it said.


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

The day of the furniture craftsman is over gone kaput. Unless you started your path long ago it's nearly impossible to compete with stuff out of India or China. 
Now is the time of the Woodworking Artest . Or the YouTube pretender that captures the imagination of those that lust for the bygone day.
I like the ice cream idea.:


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