# Lie Nielsen's 2020 (and Covid-19 Era ) Quality Control?



## Lovegasoline (Apr 18, 2018)

I've been pondering Lie Nielsen tools recently however reading more carefully online I was frankly dismayed to read so many accounts from dissatisfied customers from years past. I had the impression that the tools were impeccably crafted and both quality control and customer service were top notch: but apparently that's not always the case (or maybe it never was the case and it's just a myth I've bought into due to the price and beauty of the tools).

As an example here's a product review detailing some plane problems: https://www.lumberjocks.com/reviews/3507

Honing guides have been on my mind recently, and casual reading turns stuff like this up:
https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?240799-Lie-Nielsen-honing-guide

There's an alarming number of customers who received tools that were defective, often inexplicably so, and as well those who experienced difficulties in obtaining satisfactory post sale service from Lie Nielsen to correct the problem. Has LN improved their quality control and customer service? Where are they at in 2020, and more importantly, in the present era of Covid-19 production? Anyone receive defective tools or have issues with the company in 2020?

I'm curious to hear your feedback. Thanks a bunch.


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## zoro39 (May 21, 2019)

This appears to be what Rush calls a "seminar caller".
As a long time customer of LN with many of their outstanding tools and wonderful customer service, I think this phony post will be disregarded as well it should.
Lie Nielson is a model for what American ingenuity should be. They have advanced our craft and have continued to deliver innovation and excellence.
John J


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## avsmusic1 (Jul 10, 2016)

ok i'll bite…
My experience with their stuff has been exclusively hand planes but I've never wanted more than what they've delivered. I have 4 of their planes and have used others as well as Veritas and some old stanelys in a local woodworking school. I have yet to come across a better made product. 
I'm not doubting the have had hiccups and unsatisfied customers as a result but I'd venture to guess they are a small fraction. Simply put, if I couldn't confidently buy a LN plane I couldn't confidently buy any tool. 
Just my .02


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

Don't care about the Creek.

LN customer support is awesome. I order by phone, they're curteous and knowledgeable. Tools arrive well packaged and ready to work, in my experience. Fit and finish top notch.

Buy, Lovesgasoline, and let us know your experience.


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## theoldfart (Sep 9, 2011)

Same experience as Smitty. Last purchase was a 52 chute plane, arrived pristine, quick hone and instant whisper shavings.


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## Lovegasoline (Apr 18, 2018)

> This appears to be what Rush calls a "seminar caller".
> As a long time customer of LN with many of their outstanding tools and wonderful customer service, I think this phony post will be disregarded as well it should.
> Lie Nielson is a model for what American ingenuity should be. They have advanced our craft and have continued to deliver innovation and excellence.
> John J
> ...


zoro39,
What tools have your purchased from LN in 2020, esp. during the Covid-19 era, and what was your experience?
If on the other hand you have nothing of actual substance to contribute to this particular topic, maybe refrain from obscuring this discussion with your insulting interjections and Rush nonsense?
Thank you kindly.


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## Lovegasoline (Apr 18, 2018)

> ok i ll bite…
> My experience with their stuff has been exclusively hand planes but I ve never wanted more than what they ve delivered. I have 4 of their planes and have used others as well as Veritas and some old stanelys in a local woodworking school. I have yet to come across a better made product.
> I m not doubting the have had hiccups and unsatisfied customers as a result but I d venture to guess they are a small fraction. Simply put, if I couldn t confidently buy a LN plane I couldn t confidently buy any tool.
> Just my .02
> ...


avsmusic1, are any of your LN tools from 2020, or from the Covid-19 era?


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## Lovegasoline (Apr 18, 2018)

> Don't care about the Creek.
> 
> LN customer support is awesome. I order by phone, they're curteous and knowledgeable. Tools arrive well packaged and ready to work, in my experience. Fit and finish top notch.
> 
> ...


As stated in my OP I've held Lie Nielsen in high regard … not from personal experience but from their reputation and many advocates both famous and not. However, reading through an unsettling amount of reviews by less than completely satisfied customers it's given me pause and I'm reconsidering.

I'm trying to get a feel for whether much of what I've been reading is about a slice(s) in time, or if these issues still exist presently. I understand people can be fiercely loyal (as well as defensive) regarding products or companies of which they are fond. But frankly unfortunately allot of what I've been reading has moderated my enthusiasm. I'm on the fence.


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## Lovegasoline (Apr 18, 2018)

> Same experience as Smitty. Last purchase was a 52 chute plane, arrived pristine, quick hone and instant whisper shavings.
> 
> - theoldfart


Hi ya oldfart,
Was that acquisition from this year, or years past?


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

Have gone to the LN tools events the past few years. Even this February before lockdowns. I pretty much used every tool each time I went. Every.single.tool perfectly machined and assembled. Bought a couple at each event(free shipping) and every tool I received as perfect as the ines at the shows. Have also purchased some from http://Www.craftsmanstudio.com
and those arrived perfect as all the rest. These have all been the past few years including this year.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> zoro39,
> What tools have your purchased from LN in 2020, esp. during the Covid-19 era, and what was your experience?
> 
> - Lovegasoline


You're challenging dissenting posts by asking if they purchased in 2020 during the "covid" era? Then why are the two negative reviews you linked to from 2013 and 2016?


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## theoldfart (Sep 9, 2011)

Lovegas, it was a few years ago. I've been to Lie Nielsen and found the folks there to be fervent about their craft and organization. They exemplify what small manufacturing companies can accomplish. Obviously I am a fan.


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## Lovegasoline (Apr 18, 2018)

> You re challenging dissenting posts by asking if they purchased in 2020 during the "covid" era? Then why are the two negative reviews you linked to from 2013 and 2016?
> 
> - Rich


Rich, as is clearly stated in my OP:

"Has LN improved their quality control and customer service? Where are they at in 2020, and more importantly, in the present era of Covid-19 production? Anyone receive defective tools or have issues with the company in 2020?"

That is the question. It is direct and simple. 
If members are just going to ignore that and chime in, "I bought a plane in 1998 and another in 2017 and I love them both to death," it may please them to do so but it has no relationship whatsoever to illuminating the question I have (bringing Rush - I assume the person and not the band - into this and imagining I'm posting according to some obscure agenda or other [to be frank I have no inkling what was being evoked there], is, well … it's dispiriting. Sigh). I haven't read anything regarding LN tools produced in 2020 or more importantly, recently during what are changing and challenging conditions for many companies.

[I'm not interested in last year's production or that of other eras - with the exception being in the acquisition of used tools in which case there's an opportunity to view an individual tool as well as receive a report on any damage, defects, wear & tear, alterations, et cetera, before purchase … pre-inspection as it were … and one's interactions are with an individual customer vs. the manufacturer, so caveat emptor for better or worse. Rather, I am concerned with the luck of the draw when mail ordering blind direct from the manufacturer and recent customer's experiences].

The two reviews linked in my OP are simply two threads among many which reported issues in quality control and customer service, and furthermore they highlight two tools that interest me. They were among the first I read. They very strongly contradicted the image I'd had of Lie Nielsen Toolworks as a company. Frankly, the negative reports do not inspire confidence and have chilled my enthusiasm. I'm trying to discern if the quality control (and also customer service) issues reported were the result of a temporal situation(s) that have been rectified (for example some change or other in faculties, manufacturing methodology, personnel, et cetera) or if they remain in the present day, or have worsened.

I'm ignorant of the company's trajectory along the axes of quality control and customer service. I've never used their tools, let alone purchased one. I first learned of them through GarrettWade• back around 1989 or 1990 when they had a wonderful showroom in NYC (which unfortunately declined significantly over the years in a slow death until it became a profoundly sad store to visit … and then it just vanished … as far as I can discern whatever GarrettWade residue remains is but a pale shadow of its former glory). I don't imagine any company is static. I don't have either the time or inclination to do other than to simply ask if people would mind sharing their experiences related to the present day product.

Is that somehow unclear?

.

•The smell of that showroom was unique and intoxicating …. like an aphrodisiac to me. A rare and beautiful thing. Only a few times in my perambulations since have I chanced upon that same scent which instantly evokes the GarrettWade NYC showroom of the early 1990s.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Is that somehow unclear?
> 
> - Lovegasoline


Absolutely not. Your intent is clear as day.


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## zoro39 (May 21, 2019)

By bringing up this bogus attempt by the left to harm America, it exposes this partisan hack.
I once called out a Boston radio host who always used flowery language by telling him: a good command of the English language is no substitute for intelligence.
Rush also states: Brevity is the soul of wit.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

Attack by the left? Why do some members have to bring politics into ANY discussion here? I guarantee you would not like my views if I posted them here. Let's keep this to wood and related subjects. I am sure you believe the virus to be an attack by the left as well. There are many brands where the name has a great reputation and the quality has declined. There are many brands where the name has a bad reputation and the quality has greatly improved, such as Grizzly, whose original tools left much to be desired. OP has legitimate questions and deserves real experience opinions, not those that bring in political views.


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## zoro39 (May 21, 2019)

ibewjon,
I didn't bring up the politics, He did! I just responded.
By him weaving in covid 19 and combining it in denigrating a great American company, he was exposing his real attempt. Lie Nilson is a great company and is not deserving of bad, false statements. Your accusation that I believe the virus is an attack by the left is not true and offensive.


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## tywalt (Dec 13, 2017)

Not to bring this back to OP's original question or anything, but I just got a box from LN yesterday and can confirm that their QC is as good as I have ever experienced from them. Couple of new mortise chisels (always just used bevel edges for chopping and have a project with a bunch of mortises coming up that made a good excuse to buy new tools), the metric dowel plate to compliment the imperial one I've had for years, and a new blade for my block plane. Everything came wrapped in their standard anti-corrosion paper. Fit and finishes were above reproach. Everything I've come to expect from them.

I'm typically an ebay bargain shopper that enjoys restoring old tools, but I've broken down and bought a fair bit of LN stuff over the years. Never had a bad experience with their products.


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## avsmusic1 (Jul 10, 2016)

So, just so I'm clear, you're finding what you've deemed to be a unacceptable volume of negative reviews from historical purchases and are therefore asking if these presumed defect rates are still applicable? Is that right?

I suppose most of us are challenging the first half of this - that there is an unacceptable defect rate historically. They've been selling thousands tools a year (20k+ per wikipedia) for decades so there is bound to be some negative reviews. I've probably had the chance to touch, use, inspect, etc 50+ LN tools over the years (not 2020 production) and have never once encountered any issue. When I add to this that they're 1 of 2 "go-to" brands for most schools and pros I am extremely comfortable with them. I also have experience with the alternatives and don't find any of them superior - meaning my choices are to accept their mfg rigor or simply not acquire tools.

Beyond that, respectfully, while i can understand your desire to assess trend, it's unlikely you're going to find a critical mass of people who have bought a new LN plane in the last few months. These are life long tools for most of us.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

> Rush also states: Brevity is the soul of wit.
> 
> - zoro39


You know, Rush is quoting Shakespeare.

And Gas raises a good question. I personally just realized I haven't observed the quality trajectory of Grizzly tools in the Covid age. Or Milwaukee. Amazon has declined in service, so has UPS. Geez, there's so much I used to be assured of and now, not so much.

Gotta go, got to get to researching.


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## Mr_Pink (May 20, 2017)

> I order by phone,....
> 
> - Smitty_Cabinetshop


I also order by phone. It remembers my credit card information, which is super convenient.

Seriously (and on topic), I got the LN honing guide earlier this summer and it's very nice. I haven't used any auxiliary jaws with it, but it's been flawless so far.


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

Don't own a lot, but the tools I do have are top quality. I absolutely love my LN 4 1/2

My only "gripe" is the iron on the 1" shoulder plane is too wide for my taste. When flush on one side, it is fully 1/16" proud of the other. This makes fore and back strokes apt to damage a cheek on a tenon a lin some cases.

I like the Veritas shoulder planes more. For me the set screws for the iron really set it apart, plus the ergonomics are better than the LN Stanley design.


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## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

Can someone find a tool that has 100% good reviews and a large number of reviews.

You asked for feedback and here it is? Please let us know when you find the perfect tool company.

Personally, I have several LN tools and each one has needed some TLC before using them. I expect this from hand tools.


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## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

I don't own any LN tools of any era. But, I just want to interject something I've found to be true nearly without exception - people are more likely to post about, or write a review, when they have a bad experience vs a good one with a product/company. Especially with high-end goods like LN. So, for every bad experience you read about, there may be another two or three bad experiences you don't hear about. But, for every positive experience you hear about, there are probably a thousand you don't hear about. If you get what you order and it's as expected, you aren't likely to think to jump online and tell about it because it's just what it's supposed to be. On the other hand, if you get a real stinker, you're much more inclined to post about it on every board you frequent because you've been done dirty and that's just human nature.

Just my $.02.

Also as an engineer at a US manufacturing company, I can say with absolute certainty that Covid has affected supply chains in terms of price, logistics, availability and quality for both goods and services both in the US and abroad. Questioning how it may affect LN product availability or quality is not a leftist agenda, it's a legitimate question before a big purchase.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> Can someone find a tool that has 100% good reviews and a large number of reviews.
> 
> You asked for feedback and here it is? Please let us know when you find the perfect tool company.
> 
> ...


That is the funny thing about ordering from places like Amazon. One review will be 5 star Best item Ever! And the next review will be 1 star worst item ever. What I have found is most people are idiots. I have looked at mixed reviews and ordered several items where people complained about not being able to put something together or figure out how to use it, and I open the box and figure it out right away. Other times people are just too picky. Also one or two bad reviews out of tens of thousands sold speaks a lot to the quality.


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

I give Lie Neilson 5 stars. Top shelf company always has been always will be.


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## EarlS (Dec 21, 2011)

Lie Neilson's reputation has been earned over the years, as have all of the other good and bad businesses out there. If you choose to focus on a limited number of negative reviews and question their quality during this mess, then I think you have your answer - don't buy from them. Otherwise, consider their well earned excellent reputation and go from there.

It seems to me that you are looking for the LJ community to validate your preconceived perception that their quality is lacking. Based on the responses to the original post, I don't think you will get that response. My purchases from them have been quite satisfactory so I would give them 5 stars and order from them again without concern.


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## bbrown (Sep 3, 2008)

> I don t own any LN tools of any era. But, I just want to interject something I ve found to be true nearly without exception - people are more likely to post about, or write a review, when they have a bad experience vs a good one with a product/company. Especially with high-end goods like LN. So, for every bad experience you read about, there may be another two or three bad experiences you don t hear about. But, for every positive experience you hear about, there are probably a thousand you don t hear about. If you get what you order and it s as expected, you aren t likely to think to jump online and tell about it because it s just what it s supposed to be. On the other hand, if you get a real stinker, you re much more inclined to post about it on every board you frequent because you ve been done dirty and that s just human nature.
> 
> Just my $.02.
> 
> ...


Much wisdom here. Well said HokieKen.

-Bill


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

I do stars like I tip at a restaurant. I tip 20% for average to good service and add more for great service or if I tied up a table too long. Horrible service get 15% tip if I can blame the server for it but if it is the kitchen that possible screwed up I go back to 20%. If am am very pleased and satisfied it is 5 stars. I it could be better maybe 4 stars but anything below that has to be so bad its not funny. I see some people send things back for the most minor blemishes in a tool that will get wear within the first use. I use my tracksaw (Grizzly) as an example. I had seen in the reviews that tracks were getting damaged in shipping. Mine came and the trak had been dinged up on a corner. I decided it would be fine if I straightened and filed the corner. I got to use it that day, not sure if I reviewed it though.

I am also confused at the attempted correlation between Covid 19 and tool quality. Sorry but I don't think there is a connection beyond a shortage of labor or material to produce. A quality company won't lower their standards because of Covid 19.


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

The covid 19 is looking more and more like a big leftist hoax. 
It's fair to put it back on their agenda.
Remember when Wood river tried to take down LN. They failed miserably 
Good Luck everybody


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## BrandonW (Apr 27, 2010)

> The covid 19 is looking more and more like a big leftist hoax.
> - Aj2


Tell that to the 143K who have died!


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## BrandonW (Apr 27, 2010)

Getting back to the topic, Lie-Nielsen has great customer service. I once bought a used plane from ebay and the adjustment screw was bent (the plane was probably dropped). I contacted Lie-Nielsen and told them that I bought a USED plane (not from them) and they sent me out a new adjustment screw free of charge. You can't beat that.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Tell that to the 143K who have died!
> 
> - Brandon


Every flu season has fatalities. This one is not the worst by any means. The 1957-58 killed 116,000 Americans. Considering the population in 1958 was 175 million, and today it's 328 million (almost double), that fatality rate is far higher than this virus. I was alive then and in elementary school. Nothing was shut down. No mask BS. Nothing.

The 1918 pandemic took out 675,000 at a time when the population was around 103 million. I could go on and on.

Yes, this is a politically motivated hoax.


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## bbrown (Sep 3, 2008)

Tell that to the 143K who have died!

- Brandon
[/QUOTE]

Totally off topic, but one must be incredibly naive to believe these numbers. More and more mainstream epidemiologists, scientists, and doctors are estimating that the CDC/WHO numbers have been wildly hyperinflated for many well elucidated reasons. Actual numbers are probably well below the seasonal flu deaths. One does not have to dig far. 
The 1968-69 (does anyone remember it?, Woodstock year) Hong Kong flu killed far more than Covid. We wisely did not do lockdowns, social distance, or mandatory masks because, as everyone has known for hundreds of years (including most wise mothers) it's important to achieve herd immunity amongst the young and healthy in order to protect the most vulnerable. Just like my and most other mothers purposefully exposed us to other Chickenpox infected kids so we would catch it and be granted immunity.
Too much to say in sound bites and it's too divisive & politicized, so I'll try not to bring this up again. just hard to allow foolish beliefs, presented as fact, when so much damage is being done to millions of lives based on these falsehoods.


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## BrandonW (Apr 27, 2010)

Seriously?! I apologize to those who are here to discuss Lie-Nielsen because YouTube conspiracy theories have no place here. Please just follow the facts and don't rely on your partisan news sources.

The numbers are not overreported and Covid is much worse than the flu.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-covid-19-deaths-are-counted1/

With respect to the flu, you really had to get your stats back from 1957-58? On the high end of the estimate there have been 62,000 flu deaths. That sucks. We can and should do better. Still, Covid-19 has doubled that despite all the precautions that people are taking (PPE, social distancing etc.). Hopefully we can keep some of the practices we've learned during this pandemic to minimize the spread of the flu and other viruses going forward.

But please don't buy into stupid conspiracy theories about this pandemic. The earth is not flat. Covid-19 is real. Stay safe.


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

You apologize to people here that are discussing Lie Nielsen and beyond that never discuss anything Lie Nielsen.


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## CL810 (Mar 21, 2010)

I have contacted LN's customer service during the "covid era." I damaged a knob on a tool that is no longer on their website. So I emailed them about ordering a replacement knob. I then received an email stating they still had knobs that would fit my tool and asked why I needed one. I told them I had damaged the knob and wanted a new one and again I asked the price. They responded no charge. I responded that I caused the damage and not only did I expect to pay for it but thought it was unfair to them to not charge me. Next thing I know one shows up at my house NO CHARGE!

I call that going over and beyond expectations.

I am not a young person so I've had some time to develop these observations: Everyone screws up from time to time. It's important to know how people respond when that happens. People who look for reasons to be offended or outraged, usually have no trouble finding either.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

wow the op asks about quality control at LN and it turns into conspiracy theories about corona virus,typical discussion at lj's and always entertaining-lol. oh and just for the hell of it since im here,never had any LN tools,im a veritas guy myself,very good quality.


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## BrandonW (Apr 27, 2010)

> You apologize to people here that are discussing Lie Nielsen and beyond that never discuss anything Lie Nielsen.
> 
> - controlfreak


Fair enough-I just called out someone's BS statement that it's a leftist hoax. I actually did try to redirect the conversation back to LN with my other post.


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## AMZ (Jan 27, 2020)

IMO, we in the handtool profession and hobby, have vendors much, much higher, than average, in perceived quality control. These range from makers (LN, LV, to name two), to vendors (both makers and a slew of others). I have purchased a number of tools this year, including several during the COVID pandemic, and delivery from LN was no slower than pre-pandemic, with the quality of the plane excellent (no issues with fit, finish or function).

To the OP, what is your understanding of quality control? What is your understanding of customer service? Are you asking if LN meets "six sigma" levels? Are you asking for LN's PPM rate of error? IIRC, you have not yet purchased a LN tool, and if so, what are your expectations?


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## zoro39 (May 21, 2019)

Thank you, thank you thank you!
Aj2, Rich, and especially bbrown with that wonderful Maine common sense.

JohnJ (FL formerly MA)


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

man ive been getting my info on the virus from all the wrong sources,id need to come to threads on quality control of hand planes,you guys got all the answers- ;-)


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

> You apologize to people here that are discussing Lie Nielsen and beyond that never discuss anything Lie Nielsen.
> 
> - controlfreak
> 
> ...


And to really mess things up, accusations of poor quality at Lie Nielsen are a leftist hoax!

If in doubt, please don't take me seriously


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## shampeon (Jun 3, 2012)

I only accept reviews from people who ordered Lie-Nielsen planes in the alternate dimension of my choosing. All the rest is lies and slander. Let's keep things on topic.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> I only accept reviews from people who ordered Lie-Nielsen planes in the alternate dimension of my choosing. All the rest is lies and slander. Let s keep things on topic.
> 
> - shampeon


Lie Nielsen tools don't even exist! Unless you send me one of each tool I have no proof that they exist.


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## nickbatz (Mar 7, 2018)

> Attack by the left? Why do some members have to bring politics into ANY discussion here? I guarantee you would not like my views if I posted them here.
> 
> - ibewjon


Sing it. He wouldn't like mine either.

Anyone who wants to discuss politics or public affairs is welcome to PM me on FB or follow me on Twitter, and I promise you a run for your money. But I don't give a FF what anyone's opinions are here. This is where people come to discuss woodworking - and questions about vendors are part of that.


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

> The covid 19 is looking more and more like a big leftist hoax.
> - Aj2
> 
> Tell that to the 143K who have died!
> ...


I would like the record to show that Brandon has asked me to share my post with dead people. 
It's not looking good for you Buddy 
When someone dies they cannot communicate with the living. Some people think they can but it's also a hoax.
Good Luck everyone even if you don't agree


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> Attack by the left? Why do some members have to bring politics into ANY discussion here? I guarantee you would not like my views if I posted them here.
> 
> - ibewjon
> 
> ...


amen.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

Thank you. THIS IS A WOODWORKING SITE. PERIOD. Let's keep it educational and enjoyable.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> Thank you. THIS IS A WOODWORKING SITE. PERIOD. Let s keep it educational and enjoyable.
> 
> - ibewjon


or take it to the coffee lounge,thats what it's for.


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## nickbatz (Mar 7, 2018)

One of the first things you see at the top of the Coffee Lounge, before entering:

Respect for others is required.


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