# I'm wondering if I should just give this up



## RussellAP (Feb 21, 2012)

I've made four really nice tables which I'd love to sell, in fact if I dont sell them, i'm going to have to do something radical like get a job. At 55, I shudder to think what job anyone would hire me for.

To top it all off, I got involved with this organization here in town that takes area's that has lost retail and does these little pop-up stores for local artists and craftsmen. The one I'm with has a nice store front on Main Street and a good size area for 30 of us to show off our stuff. And they put my table in the window. Prime time stuff for me right?

Well one table is in the window, but here is what they did to the other tables. 



























Can you tell the table is for sale or it's just a fancy prop for other people to sell their stuff.

I'm rather pissed, and on the verge of just going down there with a truck and taking it all home.

Those big boxes were just put on top of the tables with no protection at all. They have since been removed or protected at my insistence.

My best bowls were stuffed with some tea towels so you couldn't even see the bowl.

I think I just need to forget about this place till it's time to spend another 70$ hauling it back.

If I don't sell one table by 2014, I'm done.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Albert Einstein


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## JohnO1955 (May 16, 2012)

In a similar boat - but I am somewhat gainfully employed and have had fair success in selling my wares through Custom Made website (www.custommade.com) - only issue there is that there is usually shipping involved (major PIA) and you have to make a lot of one-off things, which is fun, but time consuming, so it is hard to price things well because of the time involved. But this year (since Feb.) AI have made 15 jobs with an average price of over $900 - not too bad…started with small things and graduated to larger items.

I tried the craft fair thing in 2012 and spent a lot of money and time for nothing

If you want to look at my portfolio to get an idea - www.custommade.com/by/jhostudios.

Hope this helps


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## RussellAP (Feb 21, 2012)

DonW, What do you refer to?


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## Blackie_ (Jul 10, 2011)

Russell, I am curious as it wasn't mentioned in your details, are you renting store space for your wares or are they just allowing you free space? If the latter, I'd just grab the stuff and figure out something different but if you are renting space then you have the leg, right and the say as to how your items are to be displayed.

as mentioned you might try online sales, try ETSY and post shipping as not included in the price.


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## RussellAP (Feb 21, 2012)

Blackie, its free sort of, I am charged 22.5% of sales. So no rent. But still, $120 bucks getting them there and back.


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## Blackie_ (Jul 10, 2011)

I think communication is key too, might try asking them politely and as nicely as you can that you'd prefer nothing be on top of the tables, or maybe just a single item, something very small to highlight the usefulness and how it would look as a display table or in a sitting environment. All of your photos look as though they are using them for their permanent use as to own them, Heck might even ask if they'd be interested in buying them if that's what they intend them for.


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## RussellAP (Feb 21, 2012)

Blackie, I brought some of my bowls to put on the tables, but they are elsewhere. They reserve the right to display my stuff anyway they see fit apparently. So basically I'm being used in place of display shelving. 
Live and learn. 
I'm marketing these myself from now on. No more retail, or galleries, or any of those art booths.

I have a professional portfolio and I can talk. So that's the way I'll have to do it. 
Perhaps I can talk to some interior designers and see if they can keep me in mind for things like this.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

I think you are right that this is a bad presentation of your tables. I wouldn't necessarily let that completely sour me on retail and gallery situations, though.

It's all about the setup and the surroundings. In this situation, your tables are in something like a garage-sale setting, surrounded by garage-sale items. No offense, but the setting makes them look like something somebody is trying to get rid of. Now put those same very nice tables in a gallery, with some dramatic lighting, surrounded by other artistic pieces, and they would look right at home as works of art, commanding a high price.

It's all about getting the potential buyer to perceive your work in a certain way. That setup you're in right now just isn't making the right impression.


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## Blackie_ (Jul 10, 2011)

Hmm seems as though they'd be willing to work with you, if they don't want to come to an agreement and willing to work with you then that just goes to show their character and bad business if you ask me, myself I wouldn't want to have any thing to do with them, my stuff would be out of there so fast.

Side Note: My past experience, customers mostly when they walk into places like that are looking for small ticket items anyway, Maybe if you wanted just displaying your small items like bowls etc… only.


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## RussellAP (Feb 21, 2012)

CharlieM, my feelings exactly. I can still sell them from there on my own, but I'd have to pay commission. I'll just have to see what happens.

I really have no say in what goes on there, and you're right, they seem to cater to the small sales of tea towels and jewelry. One other guy there makes those box lights, so I plan to compare notes with him and another man there who makes metal furniture.


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## Blackie_ (Jul 10, 2011)

I like what Charlie said, he's right on track with the garage-sale atmosphere reason I mentioned people in that type of place are only looking for $10 - $20 items. I've already been up this road and the same thing applies to the monthly market day events, reason I won't do them anymore.


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## fge (Sep 8, 2008)

They say if this stuff was easy to do everyone would be doing it. I think with what you are doing online would be one of your best routes. Even in our high end custom cabinetry we get a good portion of our customers from the internet.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

Russell, you do some nice work, but you need to get it to people willing to pay for it. Flea markets and swap meets are not it. At a minimum set your pieces apart. Put some of your stuff on your tables.

Marketing woodworking is tough. The average person just doesn't understand the difference between your stuff and walmart's and an expensive table isn't going to sell with a bunch of low priced nick-knacks on it. If you can sell, you need to sell those setting up the displays that idea.

I obviously don't have the answer. If I did, I'd be doing it.

Just out of curiosity, why is it so expensive to get the pieces to the store?


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## RussellAP (Feb 21, 2012)

Jerry, I'm eventually heading there with cutting boards, but not big items. I'm not opposed to a sale here or there that involves some heavy shipping, but I'm not in a position to easily transport my goods to a shipper who will box them for me. 
I'm really thinking cutting boards are the thing to do, low cost, easy to handle and keep in inventory, and they sell really well. 
If I push anything online it will be them. 
No more bowls except as gifts. 
I have 4 tables so I have enough to experiment with. 
So I think a bit of tweaking and I can make out.


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## RussellAP (Feb 21, 2012)

Don, Before I got into this hobby/business I had to buy a car as part of a medicaid spend down of my folks assets so mom could get into a nursing home that was able to care for Alzheimer patients. We didn't have a lot of time, so I got a car that would spend it all in one chunk. My priority was to get mom taken care of, I could care less what kind of car it was. Now I regret that I didn't get a van or a pickup. So I have a very nice Nissan Maxima with leather interior and so many extras I still haven't figured them all out. So transporting 4 tables and a chest is a rental truck for me. Usually a 70$ expenditure each time.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Russ
I agree with Charlie,looking at the photo's my first thought was the store looked like a Good Will store. Even if they don't pile stuff on top of your tables you are marketing a custom piece to KMart type shoppers,like Don said they don't know the difference between your furniture and the stuff sold at Wallmart.
At one point I had small furniture pieces in doctors offices ,restaurants and in a florist shop. that worked well not always for the sale of the piece that was placed in all those places but for new commissions. Eventually those pieces that did not sell were used by the places they were in to hold coffee pots and displays for the businesses they were in, this was my fault for not staying in touch with the people that let me place pieces in there businesses in the first place plus not rotating new pieces in and out of those locations so they businesses didn't view them as just another piece of furniture for them to use.


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## RussellAP (Feb 21, 2012)

Jim, I'm going to let it ride till December, then I will take at least one table out. I have a potential buyer for the curved leg table but not while it's there. I don't like taking something out so I don't have to pay a commission, but I figure that I've been kind of used here so that makes it doable for me. 
Had I been told what they intended, I would never have brought the tables. My main concern now is that they don't get scratched up. 
I may take them out one at a time using my car over the next couple months if I find any excuse to do so.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

You have to pay a commission to remove items from the store ?


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## RussellAP (Feb 21, 2012)

At this point no. I have been told by the lady running the show, who has no affiliation with the 'place' they are now, told me that I have more stuff there than any other artist so she doesn't see the problem.

Her perspective is not taking into consideration what my product is. This should have been screened by someone who has prior experience doing pop up stores and is familiar with what sells. Or at the least to realize that the 2" walnut sells the piece. How can they sell if you can't see them?

So to answer your question, at this point I can go down there and get it all and everyone would probably be the happier for it.


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## LeeBarker (Aug 6, 2010)

Interesting discussion with lots of good observations.

You've heard the bromide, "Design around your tools." It applies here; the fixable situation is that your Nissan is a tool and it's incapable of doing what you currently need it to do. Either change the product design or get a new tool.

First recommendation: Determine if your tables (and designs, by extension) are marketable. Have they sold? Or led to sales? This needs to be a dispassionate conclusion, not occluded by people telling you what they think you want to hear.

Second: Figure out all the costs involved, from selecting and hauling the wood to your shop to getting the object into the customer's hands. This needs to include everything from the per mile cost of your vehicle to the Tops invoice pad on which you triumphantly write, on the bottom, "Thank You!" just before you give the happy customer her/his copy.

You can do your own shipping. I regularly make my own cardboard boxes and even shipping crates. UPS and Fedex want to do business with you. Somebody's going to get paid to do the packaging, and it might as well be you.

Where you are at this point deftly illustrates one of the truths that recurs regularly in my life: There is tuition for every learning. [And I find this reassuring.] Your stuff is too good for these folks to be handling it.

Russell, I have enjoyed your participation in LJ and I'm excited to see you move forward.

Kindly,

Lee


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## 111 (Sep 2, 2013)

I may take them out one at a time using my car over the next couple months *if I find any excuse to do so*

Russell, the pictures you provided are excuse enough. 
I would go pick them ALL up and find somewhere else to display them. 
The owners obviously don't respect your property.


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## RussellAP (Feb 21, 2012)

Thanks Lee. My cost is very small compared to the asking price. I have a local mill who supplies me with walnut, and another local mill for the 5/4 stock. As an example, the curved leg table shown below cost in materials about 20$. I'd charge more for the tool upkeep though, but I'm asking 950$. So it's profitable if sold and at that profit, you don't need to sell many to make out.

Cutting boards are the other aspect of my business and I plan to market them heavily both in retail locations and online. I'm hoping they can give me the leisure to pursue the art work and tables. These tables I make come from inspiration, not a desire so much to make money. Without the passion, I won't be able to make them anymore. However I'm not passionate about cutting boards, they are an easy buck if you ask me and I've sold more of them than anything else I make. I'm hoping they will be the engine in this endeavor.

So I'm thinking over the next month to take out some tables and bowls and replace them with cutting boards.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

Russel: Agreed, 100%

Having been involved in the antiques trade for a long time, it's a well-known fact to me that a table pie safe or cabinet MUST be cleared and empty if it's going to sell. If there's other merchandise on it, the table does not get seen, and even a person shopping for a table will see not the table, but what a cluttered-up mess the table will be in their home.
The gallery manager is clueless about presentation and needs to understand what an adverse situation it is for you for your tables to be used as 'props'. It's totally unfair to you. Ask if they'd like to buy some retail fixtures from you, and you will build them. This market is tough enough without getting handicapped by the store you're trying to sell from.


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## Blackie_ (Jul 10, 2011)

Russel something to consider, I just did a search on ETSY on cutting boards and Bowls, the results came back as 13,745 cutting boards and 4,873 on wooden bowls.


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## RussellAP (Feb 21, 2012)

I've been planning to search that out myself. I've taken a brief tour of cutting boards on Etsy and most of them are decorative and fairly high priced. Some use face grain and some mix face and side grain. 
I think a good solid hardwood maple board will go nicely there for 50$. You just need to market them as boards you can use, not boards you're afraid to use. I get hard maple for 2.35 a BF here and it's great quality, so a few cuts, a run or two through my planer, route it out and rub it down and you got 35-40$ profit per board. If you don't get greedy, you can sell them well at that price, then if someone wants something with more exotic woods I can make it special order.


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## Blackie_ (Jul 10, 2011)

Ok sounds like you are already ahead in the ball game, I'm doing pretty well on my boxes, I average around $300 a month on sells, at the end of the year it gets much better.


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## mojapitt (Dec 31, 2011)

If they charge you a commission then you should have some say in how it is displayed. The way they are displayed is terrible for showing products. Their intention is good, but if it doesn't lead to a good outcome, then it is useless.


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## bbrewer (Dec 28, 2012)

I think the store should work with you on the best presentation possible, your items should be big, higher profit per item sales. The storefront personnel should be professional in the presentation, they are representing you and your product. If they won't work with you to present your items properly they aren't worth the time or frustration it brings you, pull your items and find a sales method that puts proper value on your work.


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## bondogaposis (Dec 18, 2011)

It looks like you ought to get those tables out of there and then offer to sell the store some display tables that you can make cheaply from plywood or such. The problem is without your tables, they have nothing to display stuff on.


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## reedwood (Jan 27, 2011)

Hey, what if you re labeled the tables, display cabinetry and sold it to them and other retail stores? they certainly seem to need it to display their stuff…..right? it's an idea anyway.


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## mojapitt (Dec 31, 2011)

I sell through a couple locally owned furniture Stores. No crafts store. Furniture Stores know how to market it and show respect for it. Just a thought.


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## SCOTSMAN (Aug 1, 2008)

Wouldn't common sense be the best route,IMHO I would go and talk to the shop owners explain your points of concern and work out a solution with both of you being pleased.I t is definitely better to compromise than lose an outlet which may be fruitful in the future.Don't get so riled up you need to crawl before you start to walk and eventually to run.Alistair


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## rhett (May 11, 2008)

The internet is a great place to sell woodwork, granted it fits in a small box and can be delivered by common carrier.

Trying to making a living based on quality, while living amongst a throw away society, may very well be the definition of a fools errand. But hey, misery loves company…., welcome to the suck!

High end consignment shops in affluent neighborhoods is where your "empty" tables need be, not at a weekend flea market. Get your product infront of your target market


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## Blackie_ (Jul 10, 2011)

*Scotsman*, what you mention has already been addressed but it seems they are unwilling to work with Russell and if I read correctly even glad if he picked up, scan up through the comments.


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## cabmaker (Sep 16, 2010)

Russel, you have received lots of well intended tips here but no one seems to want to tell you the real story.

Ok ,I will. Did I read correctly that you had a 950.00 tag on that table ?

Did you actually believe someone might buy it ?

You do not have a truck,van or trailer and your in the millwork business ? How does that work ?

Just a couple things to ponder. Good luck ! JB


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## hydro (Aug 9, 2013)

Russell,

I agree with cabmaker's post above. Asking $950 for that table is way too high, especially in the setting in the photos. Unless you have a name that someone is willing to pay for like Krenov, or Maloof, getting that high dollar is going to be a long shot. In my experience, hand crafted items, even finely crafted wood furniture sells about the same as a similar factory produced piece unless the buyer perceives it as "art" or feels some intrinsic need to buy it. Don't get this wrong, it looks like very nice work, but those high dollar buyers are very hard to find. Unfortunately the bottom line is that the general public simply will not pay enough to make this type of piece profitable to make.

If you are looking to get high dollars for your pieces, first get them out of the shops in the pictures. Next, market yourself as an "artist in wood", and secondly, market your furniture to some local art galleries that are willing to display your work. The clientele in that setting is much more likely to be willing to buy, and the gallery management should also be able to help you price your work at a point where it is likely to sell


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## TravisH (Feb 6, 2013)

Hate to see your pieces displayed in such a manner and in a location that appears to not help the situation. How much time was spent building each piece, how much money is tied up in materials, how much money spent moving them back and forth (along with your time doing it), etc…Even a minimum wage job might put a lot more money in comparison to what you have spent/lost in building these.

I think you may also have to really look at the buyers and what styles appeal to them and change your style of building to cater to that. Building what you like (while fun) doesn't always translate to money in your wallet.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

Photograph your stuff. Do mailings to interior designers
and architects. Photo postcards are good.

Maybe you sell one of your tables, maybe you don't, but
good work samples promoted to he people with the capacity to
spec and buy custom work will lead to custom jobs. Be
prepared to bid casework and outsource.


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## JohnO1955 (May 16, 2012)

Sorry - just curious if anyone actually saw my post about custom made.com…?

you have the option of doing custom work for folks or just posting your stuff on the site - like I said I have done 15 jobs since Feb at an average of over $900 - That includes a few cutting boards and smaller jobs…..

I have had my stuff out in retail stores before and it has never worked out - Etsy is overcrowded- I have had marginal success there - I don't have the time to market my own website (full time job and every night in the shop)

Check out custom made….

JO


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## Blackie_ (Jul 10, 2011)

*Cabmaker and hydro* both make good points but I did read where Russell mentioned that he is going to refrain from making anymore big ticket items and focus on smaller ticket items such as bowls and boards.


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## RussellAP (Feb 21, 2012)

Loren, that is exactly what i'm intending to do. I just got a professional portfolio made of my big stuff and some smaller post card type pictures. 
I am having a meeting with a guy that bills himself as a personal agent. I'm hoping he'll work entirely on commission to get my cutting boards into some retail locations.

As for bowls, I have few special ones out of the dozends Ive turned, and they will make perfect gifts and perks for customers buying a table. Here, this bowl looks great on this table, I'll throw it in, $100 value or something of that nature.


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## BensBeerStShop (Jan 8, 2012)

Take plenty of good pictures of each piece and offer them online like ebay or etsy, then leave them in whatever shop you can get them in. If the shop sells it, pull the online listing, if it sells online, go pick it up at the shop. I have things in a few shops here, and I have the same problem. The shop I started selling in just had way too much for customers to look at, so individual items don't get a chance to shine and be noticed. Try also making sure there is a clearly visible price tag on your pieces so it is obvious they are for sale and not just furniture for the shop. I still don't sell as much as I'd like, but that did help


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## dodahman (Jun 12, 2012)

Loren, that is exactly what i'm intending to do. I just got a professional portfolio made of my big stuff and some smaller post card type pictures. 
I am having a meeting with a guy that bills himself as a personal agent. I'm hoping he'll work entirely on commission to get my cutting boards into some retail locations.
--------
Nice work, Russell. Good luck with finding the right venue as others have suggested.

peace, T


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## Blackie_ (Jul 10, 2011)

I'd be curious where the liability lies if one of your tables were to be scratched due to their (shop)s negligence? If they insist on placing things on top of them then they should except responsibility if anything were to happen.


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## mojapitt (Dec 31, 2011)

I still don't think that the people running it know what they are doing. Improper display not only hurts your sales, but theirs as well. I prefer to deal with furniture Stores. Also the right clientèle sees your items.


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## kaerlighedsbamsen (Sep 16, 2013)

Just a thought: Could an elegant solution be to help the store present your work in a fine manner; make them some stands, backgrounds etc in order to present your work nicer - and perhaps make separate room for the other stuff so it does not sit on your tables?

Another thought: Have you asked the local store that sells fine furniture if they are interested - or perhaps have a hole in their product line that you could fill?

3. thought: Friends, relatives and neighbours are your best ambassadors. Have you made sure they all have some of your piezes and are aware of their qualityes so that they can spread the word?

Your work is spotless and i really hope it works out for you!

Ps: I think Lee Barker is a wise man!


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## Tedstor (Mar 12, 2011)

Out of curiousity- where did you come up with the $950 pricing? I'm not an appraiser or a furniture dealer. I'm just a nobody/schmuck. But:
1- I don't walk into a pop-up market with the intention of buying a $950 table. If you want to command those prices, you'll have to get the tables into a bonafide furniture store where folks are actively looking for fine furniture (and your table definitely quailify).
2- Those tables are more decrotive/accent in nature. I could see the average person paying $950 for a functional/daily use item like a breakfast/dining table. Not so much for a sofa/hallway table. 
3- I think you'd be lucky to sell one of them at such a price, and only if the right person happened to wander into the store since there is seemingly no other form of marketing. The chances of selling all three is minimal at best. Meaning, you'll need to have the tables moved out of that store eventually.

If you're going to keep selling through that shop,I think you should consider making smaller items (like the cutting boards) and use those beautiful tables as props to display your smaller items.


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## mantwi (Mar 17, 2013)

I would pull them from the shop. They are being used in a manner that does make them appear to be props and exposes them to damage. If you are in a rural situation the online site mentioned before sounds good and I would use it along with local efforts to market my products. If you are in an urban setting contact local interior decorators. They are always looking for unique items to set their services apart from the competition and their clients have plenty of disposable income. If not they couldn't have an interior decorator. Contact upscale privately owned shops about possible consignment deals, they will already have qualified traffic flow and greatly increase the potential for success. Whatever you do go in with guns ablazin, you can't passively sit back and watch your dreams evaporate. By the way those are very nice looking tables. It looks like your only issue is marketing and hopefully you'll find the answer to that among these suggestions made by your fellow LJ's.


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## Furnitude (Oct 18, 2008)

Russell, Thanks for raising this topic. Lots of good discussion about different ways of going about selling work. Don't get discouraged. I'm going to ramble here… I'm getting more and more serious about selling stuff, so I'm thinking through all these things also. I'm definitely interested in Custommade, as mentioned by John. I mean, Custommade got a big investment from Google Ventures, which means search results for products there are placed high on the list. But this leads me to a big question I've been contemplating: do I want people to find me or do I want to find people? Like someone else said regarding cutting boards, there are thousands of them out there. Why would someone buy yours (or mine) over someone else's? Expecting someone to find your cutting board from a google search is like expecting someone to find one particular shell on a mile-wide beach. 
The problem I have with Custommade is that I'm not prepared to do one-off things. I've got a tiny shop and limited time in it. Plus, it takes me forever to design things. I am honest enough about myself to know that I couldn't do that efficiently and make any money on it. I've started to develop a very small collection of furniture and accessories. I designed jigs along with the furniture so I can make multiples. I've applied for Custommade and hope to be able to experiment with it. But that leads me back to my original question: do I want people to find me or do I want to find people? I guess my answer is a bit of both-i want to help people find me. To do that, I'm working on some marketing. I recently built a table that I think has great potential for sales. Through some networking with a very helpful friend, I was able to get a direct line to the editor of a home decor magazine. They are going to feature my table in an upcoming issue. They also have a large presence on Facebook and Pinterest. So when the magazine comes out, it will be in print and online. People will be able to forward it around. I'll ask all my online friends to spread the word. Hopefully that will result in some people contacting me. (When I was working on the table, I got the idea that I wanted to do an article on it in either Fine Woodworking or Popular Woodworking. I may still try that, but I want to first get the table in a magazine for people who BUY furniture rather than make it.) For other marketing, I've got two ideas I'm going to try. The first is to contact design blogs that feature products-there are a million that are cooking-related and might be interested in featuring cutting boards. there are also a million that focus on home decor. Blogs are incredibly influential-they have thousands of followers and they all repost things from each other, so the reach can be quite wide. (As a case study, look at RedOnion Woodworks on Etsy. https://www.etsy.com/shop/RedOnionWoodworks According to the site, the person has made 933 sales. With an average price of about $60, that's almost $60,000 in sales… These are nice, simple cutting boards-very easy to make because they are one piece of wood-no gluing, etc. They would also be easy to ship. Anyway, how did this person get so many sales? One way of getting exposure is to do a giveaway on a blog. Here's an example: http://jennyndesign.blogspot.com/2011/03/giveaway-red-onion-woodworks.html . The idea is that people who read the blog go to the Red Onion etsy page, then make a comment on the blog about what they like. In this one, 183 people entered, so 183 people interested in cutting boards went to the person's Etsy site. She had to sacrifice one cutting board, but got lots of eyes on her products. There are more influential blogs that run these kinds of giveaways and they get over 1,000 responses…)

The other idea, on a local basis, is to put some items in charity auctions. When a nonprofit has a fundraising event with an auction, lots of people with money show up. Yes, you'll be giving away some of your work, but this is a good way of getting an example of your work in front of lots of people in a position to buy it. I plan to do a couple of these in the next few months. There are lots of them going into the holidays.

Thanks for letting me ramble.


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## bigblockyeti (Sep 9, 2013)

Just a couple quick thoughts, I agree with some of the earlier posts, the price is too high, but not way to high. I don't think you should be selling yourself short and giving them away, but maybe cut the price in half. That Maxima, though not made for towing, would have no problem pulling a little 4' x 8' folding trailer from Harbor Freight that should be able to haul quite a bit of furniture. As for getting your wares somewhere they can be better seen, I'm struggling with that a little myself. Most of what I do is smaller, especially cutting boards that I don't make on spec, I make for those who want one and to the dimensions/shape they want. Most of my stuff has been done by word of mouth and the bigger stuff is no doubt more difficult to move and warehouse due to a number of variables, wish I could be more helpful in that regard.


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## Dal300 (Aug 4, 2011)

Russell, Grow a pair and stomp over to where that store is that is displaying your stuff and tell them that if they want display stands they can damned well pay you for them or rent them from you at a modest rate….. say $50/month….... EACH!
You didn't sign on to provide free display space for other vendors. 
I do think they need to be staged properly, but not that way. It would take a professional to do that, (Think Sabrina Soto from HGTV).

There are also furniture shows held in different places around country. One of the biggest is in Raleigh, NC every spring. I can't think of the name of it right now but it is something like AMAX, IMAX, etc.
Look into getting into one of those. I am sure there is one in Chicago, and there might be one in KC or Denver or St. Louis.
*Remember*, the guy who started Sauder Furniture started the same way you are and going to those shows got him contracts for a very lucrative business.


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## mojapitt (Dec 31, 2011)

Most larger population areas have furniture shows. But you have to look for them. Contact local civic centers and the like. Too often we get caught up in the "craft show" thought process. Most people here are above that. What you are selling is above that. You have to pursue better venues to sell in. I would get absolutely nowhere if I only did the craft shows. As it is, I only do a couple that have been good to me. Most are a losing proposition.


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## Dal300 (Aug 4, 2011)

Monte said it much better than I could. Just be prepared to pay the price for the venue.


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## Tedstor (Mar 12, 2011)

The furniture show is a good idea. One hang up though.
Russell has issues getting his tables from Point A to Point B. He'd need to find a cost-efficient way to make that happen.


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## Woodbum (Jan 3, 2010)

Russell: Just something kind of off the original subject but related. Could you trade in the deluxe Maxima for a more utilitarian pickup or van? You might have to trade down, but might be able to get a clean swap. Maybe with a ready made transportation source, you could shop your stuff to more outlets for a better deal for yourself.

Don't give up yet. You have to find the right venue for selling your items. You make too good of a product for them to be used to showcase other people's trash and trinkets. Looking at your pictures, your tables look to be only in a supporting role to the stuff sitting on them. They are not the focal point of the display. My attention was drawn to the other items first, and not your tables. If you can change that, you will be better off.

I have wanted to retire for years and devote my time to woodworking full time, but after doing an analysis of what I could produce and sell, I decided that at my age I needed to stick it out in the employee work world a little longer. At least you get to follow your passion. Lee has some great advice that might work for you, but as a one man show, you have to spend as much time in sales and marketing as you do as a craftsman. If you work as hard on that side of the business as you do in the shop, you will be successful eventually.


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## Dal300 (Aug 4, 2011)

Most Rental companies will rent a van, pick up or small box truck for $20/day or a little more. The local Rent-A-Wreck could be less than that.
If you want to break in to breaking in to making a profit you are going to have to spend some money to make some money.
Just remember, those shows are wholesale prices giving mfg's a chance to showcase and get contracts. Often small buyers come in at the end of the sale and make an offer on your whole showcase. Not for more pieces, just for the display.


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## OneReef (Oct 31, 2013)

I'd never think those tables were for sale as well. I'd ask that they be placed by themselves, plus the fact that they could get scratched or damaged with other items sitting on them.


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## mojapitt (Dec 31, 2011)

I think that the general consensus is for you to stand up for yourself and your products. Walk through some furniture stores and look at how their items are displayed. Yours should be displayed in the same manor. if the people who operate the shop your items are in cannot agree to do that, then you need to move them elsewhere.


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## mds2 (Jan 28, 2013)

Russell, I started following you on facebook quite a while ago. What interested me was the balancing clocks that you made. They were unique and interesting. Have you ever considered making more?


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## nate22 (Jul 12, 2010)

If I was you Russell I would look into selling them on line. And if I was you I would sell the furniture to stores instead of just sitting it in a store. That way you don't have to worry if it will sell or not. Most people shop on the Internet anymore. That's my ideas.


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## rrww (Aug 12, 2012)

Whats the avg ($$) sale at this popup gallery? I think that your target market has been missed from the pictures you posted. If these marketed properly and you can sell them - at your price.

If it was me those tables would be out of that establishment so fast they wouldn't know what happened. Very poor presentation - for a 22.5% commission the should have enough money to display everything without screwing you. These people are jokers & need to told what their doing is a joke. I have NEVER seen high end items displayed soooo poorly. I'd pull everything today NO EXCUSES (excuses cost money in the end) and find a *professional gallery* if you need them displayed, the sooner you get them out of this mess you can get them sold. You can leave them a month, two, or a year. They will just get beat up - they don't care about your work. Be out the $70 before your out the $70 + refinishing.

I agree I would get them online, my entire business is based online and its a pretty good living.
Good luck!


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## RussellAP (Feb 21, 2012)

Well guys, too many comments to address them all, but here's what I've decided.

I am going to pick up three of the tables, the other two I've been told will not have anything on them but my stuff, a bowl or two.

I've had a professional portfolio done of the tables and a few of the best turnings I've done. So Today I set about making appointments with architectural and interior design firms here in Kansas City and so far the response has been outstanding. I have 4 appointments with some well established firms, I even went out an got a lumberjack outfit for the interview.










I have overalls if this don't work, lol.

Wish me luck.


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## casual1carpenter (Aug 16, 2011)

Russell, let me be one of the first to wish you luck. Luck is always nice, but your work speaks for itself. Keep in mind that the contacts you are pursuing might not move your current stock but could develop and order different builds.


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## mojapitt (Dec 31, 2011)

Right approach. If you want it, you have to go after it. Best of luck and keep us posted.


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## poospleasures (Aug 7, 2011)

Hi Russell,
I have been doing woodwork for the last several years but only as hobby that pays for its self. I am pretty good at making things that people say are great. That said I do not think I could make a living doing this as there is just not enough time to make beautiful well made hand made things to really make any money. Thru word of mouth and several friends in my area I do sell every thing that I make and I do work at it every day. I know there are some guys in different locations and with different connections that do make a lot of money from this type of thing. It is just like athletics only a very small percent make the big money. I am not one of them even tho my stuff is very good. I don't want to be a turn off but just talking real life. Sorry.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

Way to go. Those clients can teach you a lot too. Architects
in particular tend to know what goes into building quality
furnishings as many have significant hands-on experience
in a shop.

What I mean is if you don't know how to execute something
they've drawn, ask. They often have had the same sort
of thing done before or seen it done and know more or less
how to get the result in a shop or install.


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## Puzzleman (May 4, 2010)

Hello Russell. This just goes to what I believe. That it is harder to market woodworking than doing woodworking. I have found that the shop time is the fun and easy part. Selling it is getting better but it has been a hard road. I do this full time making puzzle stools and puzzles. Not exciting work to all of you, but fun to me.

Marketing is hard.


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## joeyinsouthaustin (Sep 22, 2012)

Congrats to those who have had success with custommade.com. Here is another perspective. One part of my business manufactures custom exterior entry doors. I have now lost several jobs as my projects have been turned over and underbid on this site. More power to those working for cheaper, but I try to explain to my customers the difference between my product and especially warranty, and an unknown. Especially on something like an installed exterior door system. Oh well, ultimately it is the customers decision, and if they choose to ignore my reputation and the benefit of using an established shop so be it, but it sure doesn't help to have hungry one offers underbidding my legitimate work. Or having my clients turning around and posting my designs to get a better price. That is technically a breech of my contract, and would forfeit the deposit levied on the drawing, but really.. it is a losing proposition on all sides to get in that argument. Just another point of view. It is a wildly changing market place, and always a challenge to succeed.


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## casual1carpenter (Aug 16, 2011)

Joey, have you considered charging for design time and effort which could be deducted from purchase price only if and when they order? You charge for shop time along with overhead, is your drawing board time any less valuable? I'm sort of glad that I am not in business when I think about a proper bid and the work it entails with only a job prospect. Perhaps you need to show the client, who you are, where you are, your establishment, your reputation, and all of the things that make you special. You are in a position where you have to sell yourself as well as your product.

I think this sort of relates to Russell's post in that he might be reaching towards this type of venture.


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## joeyinsouthaustin (Sep 22, 2012)

*Casual1* Yes all sound advice… I was venting a little bit. In one sense, especially the one that likes LJ's forum, I am happy that there is an avenue for part time craftsmen to sell there work, and market their talents. On the professional side, it is something new to have to deal with. I do charge for this time in the form of a deposit on the job. Sometimes I succeed in keeping the money. The recent frustrations are more in line with the client breaking the deal, than the people on the web site. Those crafstmen didn't knock on my clients doors, my clients actively searched for a better deal. Like I stated, it is technically a breech of contract, but there is just no good way to get in that argument, and little return if I do and win. So I wish them luck and congratulate them on finding a cheaper price. I hope they get excellent products that last forever, but ultimately it is them who is taking the risk, and I can secretly pine and hope the doors fail, and no one picks up the phone when they call… and if I do it right, there next call will be to me. If that happens they will come to me the next time, be happy to pay my prices, and tell others about me and how they got burned. It is the life of a large commercial carpentry outfit like mine. I often loose trim, finish, and cabinet jobs, as well to other professionals based on price. But I usually only loose one per builder… then they come back with the tails tucked. 

I guess my venting was just how this web site has blind sided me a little bit lately.

Edit: Sometimes I feel a little bad for the guys on the site. I know what it takes to price this right, and it is never good IMO when someone goes after it, and ends up eating it. Also if a client is "cost engineering" that much.. I often file it in the "dodged a bullet" category..


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## Dal300 (Aug 4, 2011)

Joey, this is another reason to publish your own website and not depend on someone else to list for you.
Reasoning behind this, (and I'm sure some of the liars for hire will explain why I am wrong), is:

*Deleted*.. It doesn't matter anyway.


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## SteveMI (May 19, 2009)

I spent couple hours with a "furnishing agent" and an interior designer on making some products. They wanted to have a sample piece to show, which I didn't have any problem with. Seems Russel that you have plenty of good examples and photos.

The second phase of the meeting went into their rationale for 50% of the sale price. Now with established front people who have a clientele, that isn't all that bad since they have a premium market and fully pricing the products is understood. Those starting out don't have that. Mine didn't. Just ask for their track record.

There was an old adage 'Those who can, do; those who can't, teach." My rewrite of that is that "Those who can, do; those who can't, open a store." Both quotes aren't fully perfect, but a lot of the "stores" I have taken things to in the past couple years aren't operated or staffed by people who know the beginning of how to retail. Too many times they don't have the foggiest idea of how to describe or explain you product or the difference between the ones in Wally World or IKEA.

Steve.


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## Henry6 (Nov 6, 2012)

Its good try keeping and doing your good work its just awesome and age has nothing to do with work try showing your work to people if any body see your talent your likes your work then for sure they will hire you then and there.


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## SRRieman (May 31, 2012)

Russell, I'm not sure if this topic is still alive, hopefully it's not because you've found a way to sell those tables. I didn't read through all of the comments and I barely scanned through them, but I do think that I may be able to help in some way. Let me start with this, you're question "can you even tell this table is for sale" is awesome. You have you doubts about your selling skills, you don't hide them, and that is admirable.

My question for you is: where are you selling the tables? do you have a shop or is this at a craft fair or something else? Where you are selling them exactly is not important. I'm trying to figure out if you're selling with actual foot traffic or if you are only selling something over the net.

I'm a retail store manager with close to 15 years experience, one of the things we do best and enjoy most is creating displays. Let me know if you want any advice


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## EastLake (Mar 11, 2014)

Russell, I feel for you. I have a dozen children's foot stools in a main street store in the Finger Lakes Region of New York, and they aren't moving either. Honestly, if I saw how those pieces were being used (and they are absolutely gorgeous), I would throw a fit. It sounds like the shop is using your hard work as free display units, and let's face it, who has ever walked into a store and said, "How much is the shelving unit holding the business cards going for?" I build and live by the mindset that your work needs to stand on it's own, and I would extend that to, "and nothing else needs to stand on it". If they want your pieces as display units, they can buy them.


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## mramseyISU (Mar 3, 2014)

Very interesting topic, I've been thinking about selling some of the stuff I make as a way to supplement my addiction to tools. I had been thinking about setting up shop at the local farmers market on saturdays this summer. It's $100 and it wouldn't take many $40 cutting boards to break even on that deal.


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## RussellAP (Feb 21, 2012)

Eastlake, Actually this is an older thread. I've been enjoying increasing success in my business and this month may become the firest month that I can pull my weight around home with some actual income. 
Had several custom jobs and I've been doing handyman services with a website called Thumbtack. I mainly hang large screen tv's and charge way under what most charge and still come out smelling like a rose. I charge $75 labor plus parts if any are needed. Most people buy the mount themselves though, they just can't figure the directions out, lol. Takes less than an hour for me to hang one. I've received about $30 just in tips this week.


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## joeyinsouthaustin (Sep 22, 2012)

*RussellAP* You need to make a post card with pics of your finer work, with contact info. Leave two with each TV job…with on caveat. Only in houses that might have the disposable income. It could lead to leads, or it could waste time chasing leads… depending if you execute right .. who knows.


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