# Three questions about externally vented dust collection



## srzsrz (Apr 15, 2013)

I'm buying a house and want to set up shop in the one-car garage. As an asthmatic, I want good dust collection and ventilation. With temperatures out here ranging about 50-70°F, I figure I can get away with a ClearVue CV1800 cyclone/blower with no filter, vented directly to the outside. I do have some questions, though.


Pulling 1000cfm of air out of a 2200 ft³ garage (that's 27 air changes per hour!), how am I going to prevent backdraft from the water heater and HVAC furnace? Is it enough to cut some vents in the garage door, or do I need dampers or fans in the appliance flues? Or perhaps use another fan to forse air into the garage? And, perhaps most importantly, how would I go about measuring whether whatever I did to prevent backdraft is working out? Would a standard carbon monoxide detector suffice? What is the best place to mount it?


I see a lot of people install air filtration or ventilation as well as DC, to remove the "fugitive" dust. But is that really necessary if I already just paid for a "Pentz grade" system that can pull 1000cfm out of the shop? Why not just leave the DC running, pulling through, say, a floor sweep?


I am a strong believer in actually measuring any parameter I'm trying to control if at all possible. I already have a Dylos particle counter to measure the overall effectiveness of any dust collection and ventilation, but I was wondering what would be a good anemometer to measure air speed. Is Extech any good? I'm considering one of their windspeed/temperature/humidity combination meters, which would also come in handy for testing and tuning the home HVAC system.


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

With a CV, can I ask why vent outside? Typically, I consider venting outside a good option for a few reasons, one being you don't have to worry about the filter needing cleaning. But with a CV, separation is so complete that the filters stay pretty much clean all the time….negating much of the advantage of the outside vent. There are some other reasons to vent out, but none as important (IMHO) as that one. Back to the question, the furnace and water heater will have to be sealed off from the flow in some manner, there isn't (that I know of) a way to prevent the backdraft on the appliances themselves.

Some folks report the clean the ambient air by filtering it through the DC. I suggest an ambient air cleaner, but not for health reasons. By the time the AC gets the dust, it's already made it to your lungs. For your health, capturoing every spec at the source is your best bet. So you also need a really good shop vac for your smaller tools, and fit it with a Gore Clean Stream filter, hepa performance, robust construction, and cheaper than some alternatives. Now, why the ambient air cleaner. To just clean any residual airborne particles and keep them from depositing themselves, well, everywhere to become airborne later the next time you do something. Run it for a few hours after you leave the shop.

You seem pretty serious about DC (applause) so I suggest to measure airflow you consider using a Magnehelic gauge (cheap, $25-$30, e-bay) and a pitot tube (not so cheap, maybe $65+). This is the way the pros do it ( with DC systems). I have never bought the pitot tube, but use a magnehelic to measure when to clean my filter…but I don't have a CV; in that case I wouldn't worry about it. All this, of course, is just my opinion.


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## unbob (Mar 10, 2013)

In commercial cook lines with the big hoods over the grills, and ect. There is another blower for make up air.
Otherwise, heat will be sucked out of the building, and the doors will be hard to open, or be sucked open.
I am looking to do outside venting myself, and cant see a way of doing it without providing the make up air.


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## crank49 (Apr 7, 2010)

Well if you already bought in to the Pentz plan all you can do is plan to inject makeup air. 
The only way to be sure it is working is to measure the relative air pressure in the shop v.s. the outside.
A manometer is the instrument that does this.
It is possible to provide electrical controls such that a negative pressure in the shop (created by the exhaust) will cut the power to the exhaust motor.
Good luck with trying to condition the air at 27 changes per hour.

Another fringe benefit of this plan is you will have the garage air pressure positive relative to the house; if it's an attached garage, and will get some dust and fumes in the house.

I think Pentz is a putz if you haven't already figured that out.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

I have stated in many of my DC threads; NO filter will remove 100% of the fine dust (the destructive stuff). Even HEPA filters won't remove 100%. Hepa filters don't start working effectively until they start to trap dust. As the filter traps dust, the pores in the filter get smaller and smaller, because they are clogged with dust.it effectively traps most of the dust. BUT, a clogged filter (any filter) will slow down the velocity of the air stream and as the velocity drops, so does the CFM. The result of venting to the outside is no loss of velocity or CFM. If you go this route (recommended), make sure the exhausted air can't make it's way back into the shop through a door or window or you will lose the benefits. It doesn't matter which type of DC you use, cyclone or non-cyclone. It is there only to collect large particles and chips that you don't want passing through the fan. The fan will see only fine dust.


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## srzsrz (Apr 15, 2013)

Thanks everybody for your suggestions!

crank49: As to conditioning the 27 changes per hour: the only reason I would even consider outside venting is because the climate is so mild around here. Average temperatures are around 50°F in January and 70°F in July. As to your opinion about Mr Pentz: do you think he exaggerates the dangers of fine dust, or the equipment needed to control it?


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## crank49 (Apr 7, 2010)

The equipment side.
I was a foundry engineer for 30 years and designed a lot of dust control equipment for materials much more hazardous than wood, like silica, chrome and lead oxides, asbestos, etc. so I am fully aware of the dangers of respirable dust. I just think he conveniently seems to recommend a particular piece of equipment. When you want a specific solution it's not all that difficult to adjust the facts to arrive at that conclusion. I believe it was Will Rogers who nailed it pretty good when he said there were "Lies, damn lies, and statistics"

edit: upon further investigation I find that that quote is attributed to "Benjamin Disraeli, Alfred Marshall, Mark Twain and many others as well"


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## Grandpa (Jan 28, 2011)

Crank I thought Pentz designed what he thought was the best system then Clear Vue copied it or bought his design to copy. I don't think anyone has ALL of this figured out. Pentz did a study then put his paper out there for the world to read. He stands on that. He didn't condemn anyone. Yopu could be sitting on the shelf next to Pentz but you have had to put someone down to make yourself look good. This is not necessary if you are really any good at all. I do wish you would just put the facts out there and let us sort them out. We do have respect for you so please don't change that image we have. Thanks


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

To test the efficiency of any filter, run the DC in a dark shop at night and observe the dust that is coming from the filter in the beam of a small flashlight.


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## srzsrz (Apr 15, 2013)

As to Pentz: I understand your skepticism about his advocacy of one very specific design.

I think his emphasis on "this is the only way to get it done" came about before the availability of affordable (Dylos) particle counters. The annoying thing with fine dust is that there is no way to know whether you are adequately controlling it without measuring it. MrRon's suggestion about looking at visible dust with a flashlight is useful, but not perfect. (Matthias Wandel has some interesting blog posts about trying to quantify that sort of measurement.)

So anyway, imagine you're Bill Pentz and you really care about this and want people to get it right, but you realize that it's not feasible for them to close the loop on the control system and actually measure what they're doing.

The next best thing is to come up with set of very specific, overengineered recommendations that you know from your own experience will work, even if in any particular case you could get the job done in other ways.

I'm sure there's lots of ways to skin the cat, and given that I have the means of checking whether the cat has been skinned, I may try some ways other than Pentz's, but I don't think that to explain why he is so specific in the methods he advocates you have to assume a financial interest.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

There are air swirl patterns in a shop that will never effectively catch all airborne dust. If you are looking for a "clean room" environment, you will never get it with a shop DC system of any kind.


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## oldworld124 (Mar 2, 2008)

What you don't seem to understand about Bill Pentz is that he developed the small shop Clearvue size and style of dust collection system. He originally sold full size patterns and then metal kits. He teamed up with the original owner of Clearvue who came up with the idea of using clear Lexan. What happened is the other dust collection makers basically Stole his design and started selling them as their own. You need to know the history of Bill Pentz before you make these types of statements. These are designed for the small shop and hobbyist so they could have an affordable and much safer dust collection system rather than using the old and obsolete dust bag type collectors. 
As far as being able to direct vent versus a filter goes. It is always better to direct vent. The problem you are having is your heat ducts and water heater must have normal air pressure. You will need to just block off the heat ducts and the water heater might need to be relocated in order for it to be safe. Or install a completely sealed exhaust vent.It depends on the type of water heater you have as to what can be done with it.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Good for Pentz and his cyclone, however I chose to build a DIY Phil Thien separator for less than $40, if I remember correctly. It works great and looks ugly, but so what because mine is 30x cheaper and still does NOT pollute the environment.

There are many ways to enhance your DC and I disagree that venting to the outside world is a "good" way to do it. To me, that is no better than walking your dog so your dog will crap in your neighbor's yard. So you (the proverbial you) want to pollute your local environment and the local kids playing outside get to inhale your dust, or maybe your wife and your kids get to inhale your dust. To me, this is not being responsible.

My opinion, PUT A FILTER ON IT.


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## Dusty56 (Apr 20, 2008)

As a fellow asthmatic , I have to agree with *HMike's* statement about polluting your neighbors air quality. 
Seems kind of selfish to dump your waste into the air for others to suffer with. Think about how you would feel if you found out one of your neighbors was doing something that affected your health , but benefited his /hers. Example : your neighbor burns wood in his /her wood stove / fireplace and never opens the damper enough for good combustion and you get to breath in all of the smoldering exhaust that comes into your yard from their chimney. They're all nice and warm while you're huffing on your inhaler or heading for the Emergency Room trying to breath. 
Just sayin' , think about it ; )


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## firefighterontheside (Apr 26, 2013)

As a firefighter we never recommend CO detectors in the area of gas appliances because these appliances are always going to give off some CO and will eventually set off your detector. We recommend CO detectors in the living and sleeping areas, hallways and living rooms. It's while sleeping that CO is the worst as it is odorless. Correct placement for the detector is around 4 feet off the floor. If you have those appliances in your garage, I would say if you're going to vent to the outside that you need to create some vent such as a cracked door or actual installed louvre. The biggest causes for elevated CO in homes is newer home that are sealed so well that there is negative pressure in the home which causes appliance vents to reverse flow. So I would make sure that you have CO alarms in the home not only because of your shop situation, but also for the fact that you have an attached garage and have gas appliances.


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## oldworld124 (Mar 2, 2008)

The exhaust air that goes to the open air or filters has a very small percentage of dust with it. The vacuum design of the system actually sucks the dust into the dust bin/can/ So, the filters are just the finally down end exit of the air which is not that bad. The filter is used mainly in enclosed environments where one needs to have a closed shop. That is all.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

*John: "...The exhaust air that goes to the open air or filters has a very small percentage of dust with it. The vacuum design of the system actually sucks the dust into the dust bin/can/ So, the filters are just the finally down end exit of the air which is not that bad. The filter is used mainly in enclosed environments where one needs to have a closed shop. That is all…."*

HUH? To me that sounds no different than something like this… China is only polluting "just a little bit" of the atmosphere of the Earth, so it is not really so bad and other countries should not worry about it. So what if it occasionally drifts over YOUR house.

If the dust is enough of a problem to remove it from your shop because of health concerns, it is enough of a concern to remove it from the air, PERIOD. And to restate my earlier analogy,... I do NOT like my neighbor bringing HIS dog over to MY yard to take a crap. Think about it, this affects us all.


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## Grandpa (Jan 28, 2011)

Mike is correct. If it is pollution in your shop it is pollution outside your shop. Same dust and still in OUR air


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## oldworld124 (Mar 2, 2008)

You don't seem to understand the concept so I will go no further to try to explain.


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## redryder (Nov 28, 2009)

I don't want to get into a piss'n match about pollution but regarding bullet point #2:

*I see a lot of people install air filtration or ventilation as well as DC, to remove the "fugitive" dust. But is that
really necessary if I already just paid for a "Pentz grade" system that can pull 1000cfm out of the shop? Why 
not just leave the DC running, pulling through, say, a floor sweep?*

I have the HF dust collector and the Jet air filtration unit hanging from the ceiling. There are just too many times when I make that fast one or two cuts with the TS or bandsaw or miter saw or quick sand with the spindle sander and I am too lazy to fire up the dust collector. Even hand sanding will release a certain amount of dust which is very visible on those sunny days when the sun shines through the windows. The air filtration unit has three speeds and a timer and I feel it does a great job of pulling dust from the air.

What I don't get is: where the heck does the temperature only fluctuate between 50 and 70 degrees year round?


> ?


????


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

The Earth *IS* a closed environment and should be treated as such.


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## Sailor (Jun 17, 2009)

As for the good and bad of venting outside I'd say not to bash him to much. He may be like I am and live in a rural area where your neighbor is a good ways down the road. Also, where I live there is constant farming going on and dust everywhere.

If it's bad to exhaust your DC outside due to the fact of polluting the air with dust then I guess we can no longer sweep any dust from our shops outside then either can we?????

Maybe we should try to pass ordinance where construction sites have to have dust collectors on their saws when cutting and their brooms when cleaning up?????

I think if he lives in a rural area and not a neighborhood then it should be fine to vent it outside. But if your right up next to your neighbors yard then yeah, don't just blow everything into their space.


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## oldworld124 (Mar 2, 2008)

Sailor, your points are correct. What people don't seem to understand is that the amount of dust that comes out of the exhaust and through the filters is an extremely small amount. Probably less than one small spoon per day of running, if that. The filters would be clogged in less than an hour if the dust levels were high. More dust is kicked up just walking around the shop for 2 minutes than the amount of dust that comes out of the exhaust port in a week.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

I've vented outside for years,my HF DC vents out side but through the dust bag outside plus a small dog house outside that's enclosed. As far as negative pressure goes I have no windows that open and doors with good seals ,I have a gas heater and tankless water heater both with pilot lights in my shop and have had no problems. I think people act as if your going to run your DC for hours on end but in most home shops you run you DC for short spurts making negative pressure a very insignificant problem so don't sweat it ,your not going to suck you parked car or passing cat under your garage door when using your DC


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Sorry guys, I just don't buy the argument that since John Doe pollutes that that justifies your own polluting. Very short-sighted IMO. Sure, some activities have some pollution that is not as controllable. This is NOT one of them.

For instance, no-till farming actually does decrease dust pollution and erosion. Putting a filter on your WW shop DC unit, just like nearly everyone else, is not too much to expect or ask others to do.


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## Dusty56 (Apr 20, 2008)

" the amount of dust that comes out of the exhaust and through the filters is an extremely small amount. Probably less than one small spoon per day "

*If you really believe that , then keep it in your shop ! *


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## DocSavage45 (Aug 14, 2010)

"Why not just keep the DC running?"

Might be interesting to see how many amps the DC draws? That can be another issue?

I've not been in the shop continuously, and I'm not cutting and sanding all day. I use a dust mask right now and I'm cleaning sawdust up the old way. But working in a place where there are fine particles of dust of any sort can be a health hazard? I use my Grizzly air filter in addition to a five micron filter on my furnace after lower levels of filtration. Have to keep filters clean though?

What about noise pollution and your ears? Oh yeah and the noise for your neighbors when you are out there all night? LOL!

Sound like you are doing your best to keep it healthy.


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## mrg (Mar 10, 2010)

Looking at the specs why don't you get it with the filter? It has a rating of 99.9% effectiveness down to .5 microns with a MERV 10 or 15 filter on it. That is nothing to sneeze at. If you want fresh air open the garage door. How much wood are you going to be cutting at any one time? If you're not using your blade guard with dust collection or no guard at all then having the collector is not going to make much difference, you are still going to get dust in the air from the blade throwing it. You probably breath more particulates in mowing your lawn than you will having this set up with the filter inside your garage.


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## oldworld124 (Mar 2, 2008)

Dusty56, It is obvious you know nothing about these types of cyclone dust collectors. The dust can has a seal around it and the lid. it has a vacuum pressure in the dust can. The system is designed so the exhaust filters get an extremely small amount of actual dust. They would clog up in a few minutes if there was any significant amount of dust going through the exhaust. The filters are needed for an enclosed room use so they make sure the air is not blowing everywhere and to collect any small particles that come through the exhaust. There is such a small amount of dust that goes out the exhaust that a new filter can take up to 6 months to "break in" reach it's maximum efficiency.


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## MarkwithaK (Sep 12, 2009)

By venting outside you are creating a negative pressure in the space. If, as you alluded to, your water heater and furnace are in this space then you you will most likely run into venting issues….possibly pulling flue gasses back into the space. Very dangerous.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Good point Mark it can be an issue but all of my units are sealed and vent outside plus their mounted 12ft off the floor and as I said It's a rare occasion to have my DC longer that 10 minuets at a time.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

John Ormsby, you obviously know nothing about environmental ethics, nor the need to keep your own pollution under control. You keep shuffling your feet to keep people thinking you are moving, however, you are stuck in the mud, insisting that you can pollute your neighbors air space for free, and with free will at abandon. I would express my disapproval for YOUR TYPE in a series of four letter word/expressions, however, your type is not worth it and is/are a drain on our shared burden of trying to keep this planet livable.


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## oldworld124 (Mar 2, 2008)

Horizontal Mike, I am blocking you after this last note. I USE the FILTER on my system. I have been trying to get through your THICK skull that this type of cyclone can be SAFELY vented outside without any issues. you would know this if you learned how to read an do research. It is common knowledge here on Lumberjocks that you really like to argue with everyone and this is just another one of those cases.


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## crank49 (Apr 7, 2010)

Guys, if anyone thinks venting outside is okey dokey because you have a cyclone you are delusional.
1. Cyclones are considered by the EPA to be the most minimal form of collectiion available.
2. If any of you tree huggers think getting the dust out of the shop and outside is a good thing, you need to work in the poor industries that have to tow the line on air polution controls. If I wanted to install a simple roof fan in our foundry I had to deal with 50 pages of bureaucratic bull ******************** and red tape, apply for permits, analyze the air, have independant labs analyze the air, account for all raw material flows through out the system, account for every gram of material that comes in and goes out, etc., etc.
Then someone wonders why manufacturing left this country. Frankly, I'm surprised at how much has stayed.


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## Grandpa (Jan 28, 2011)

I have never been in this business but you should be in the hog farm business. They have codes and regs to follow. You are correct. It is almost to the point of "you can't buy a box of nails without a license and and inspection". If you don't like this then just hang on. It is coming to a head.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Why thank you John. You have just shown your own lack of thinking and inability to care about anyone else on this planet. BTW, quit bringing your dog onto my property to to ******************** in my yard. I get tire of cleaning up after you.

I also get a little upset at your ability to ignore how you negatively affect your neighbors with abandon. It takes quite a level of fortitude to act in such a way, thinking that your own actions are above that of all others.

BTW, I borrowed YOUR verbal tactic method from post #28 above,... "... Dusty56, It is obvious you know nothing about these types of cyclone dust collectors…" I guess you choke on your own words when they are redirected in your direction, huh. How sad…


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## Dusty56 (Apr 20, 2008)

*Hi John Ormsby*, I just quoted your own statement back to you . 
My statement reflects yours in that you have so little dust in your exhaust , then why bother blowing it outside ?
Suck it up , it's only a very small spoonful by your estimation . 
Sorry to confuse you : ) 
Have a great day and breathe easy while many others can not .


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## srzsrz (Apr 15, 2013)

@redryder:










According to the omniscient world wide interwebs:

So who exactly performed this government test? Starting before World War I, the United States and German governments began conducting climate surveys and gathering meteorological data. Their findings revealed Redwood City to be at the center of one of the world's three best climates (The other two? The Canary Islands and the Mediterranean Coast of North Africa). These findings were printed by local newspapers and read by a happy public delighted to discover their climate to be the best by government test.

(Well, actually, I'm moving from Redwood City to East Palo Alto, about 1 mile. East Palo Alto, which is north of Palo Alto, doesn't have those funny signs, though.)

I exaggerated with the 50-70°F a bit; that's the monthly average temperatures for the coldest and warmest months. Obviously, the coldest and the warmest days of the year are of course a bit further out.


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## srzsrz (Apr 15, 2013)

Also, guys, could we please focus on trying to learn and help each other learn about dust collection rather than accusing each other of all manner of unpleasant things and assuming the most unsympathetic possible reasons for why people might have the opinions they have?


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

I agree @srzsrz, and I do hope that you have learned that "venting outside" is NOT actually "dust collection" by the term's very own definition. And, as an asthmatic, you would desire to eliminate this atmospheric problem rather than transfer it on to someone else downwind of you and your shop. At least that is what I would hope you would think was the responsible thing to do.

I understand that being an asthmatic is not fun. About 15-20yr ago, after a serious bout of bronchitis, I was stuck on an inhaler for over five years and can fully understand what it means to be short of breath. While I have recovered, I understand that many/most do not, and have to deal with it for a lifetime. I do empathize with your condition.


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## srzsrz (Apr 15, 2013)

As for the cyclone taking care of it: I don't think so. Cyclones are for separating out large dust particles and chips, which account for the bulk of the volume of what you're collecting. What we are talking about here is the fine dust that, in an indoor dust collection system, would hopefully be caught by a filter. Now the amount of this fine dust is very small, but if it is concentrated in a small space like a small shop, the concentration becomes high enough to be a respiratory irritant etc., especially to people who are sensitive to such things. Is it a problem when you vent it outside? It may be. It all depends on how quickly it disperses and how much you produce. I hadn't really thought about it, but I think the people here who are worried about polluting outdoor air may or may not be right in any given situation and the only real way to find out is to go out and measure. If it turns out that soot from the local freeway dominates the particle count and my shop doesn't make a dent in the number, I wouldn't worry. But if I see significant increases in particle count more than a few feet away from the exhaust, I would agree that it would be a good idea to do some filtering even went venting outside. The last thing I want to do is cause any health problems for the people attending services at the church next door.


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## srzsrz (Apr 15, 2013)

As for the Chinese, who somehow seem to get involved in a lot of these discussions: some pollutants, especially greenhouse gases and ozone layer depleting gases are globally diffuse problem, where the problem is the entire worldwide concentration, not local concentration near the source. The same is true of certain toxins, like dioxin, which are active in such low concentrations that it is actually a problem for a small amount of them to be dissolved in the oceans.

When it comes to more "down-to-earth" air pollutants like soot, they would not be much of a problem if they were evenly distributed, but they are not. They are emitted in a concentrated way at the source and travel along the prevailing winds for quite a while before they disperse, and they have no qualms about crossing borders.

The most notorious case of this may be Hong Kong, which has very strict pollution controls but is nevertheless extremely polluted, to the point of causing lots of health problems, by factories in Shenzhen in mainland China. The Hong Kong government has no jurisdiction there, and they cannot even really do any diplomacy with the mainland government because they are officially subsidiary to it. I believe that a while ago, they tried a cunning trick: they realized many Shenzhen factories are owned by people who live in Hong Kong, or companies registered in Hong Kong, so they can regulate them that way.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

http://the10mostknown.com/top-10-worlds-air-polluted-countries/ 
Please notice the the USA is #2 in the World for 'Most Polluted Country' and THE MOST PARTICULATE MATTER pollution is in California. Click on the image to see entire USA.


"...Increased levels of fine particles in the air as a result of anthropogenic particulate air pollution "is consistently and independently related to the most serious effects, including lung cancer and other cardiopulmonary mortality." The large number of deaths and other health problems associated with particulate pollution was first demonstrated in the early 1970s and has been reproduced many times since. PM pollution is estimated to cause 22,000-52,000 deaths per year in the United States (from 2000)..."

I hope you know and understand that CA is as bad as it gets for *P*articulate *M*atter (*PM*) pollution in America. YOU are the center of it.


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## jgt1942 (Mar 25, 2013)

> To test the efficiency of any filter, run the DC in a dark shop at night and observe the dust that is coming from the filter in the beam of a small flashlight.
> 
> - MrRon


This seems like a really good idea. It is now 0034 hours and I gave it a try. Before I turned on my DC I used the flashlight to see if any dust was moving in the air and could see none. When I first turned on the DC immediately I could see dust in the light beam and then I noticed that there was a lot of air coming from the motor on the DC and then realized that air was being drawing through the motor for cooling. I then concentrated on the top bag and could see a very small amount of dust in the beam, however I'm not sure if the dust was from the bag or the air going through the motor.

I do have a Thien baffle (Tophat) that removes about 96% of whatever is going through it. The air then goes through the DC impeller and then into the bag. Because I also turn wood and have been turning very dry Mesquite my shop is covered with dust. I'm in the process of trying to determine what I want to do for an air cleaner.


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