# Water Based Poly - So Frustrated



## yakattack (Jun 16, 2020)

Hi,

I am having a terrible time finishing a computer desk top in a water based poly (varathane diamond floor). I have tried synthetic brushes, paint pad, cotton tshirt, - sanding lightly between layers - allowing days to dry between coats, testing a few hours apart, a week apart, - using 3m pads to buff out, sanding all the way up to 3000 to finish. It's very smooth, but these streaks show up in a certain light. You don't see it unless it's on an angle - or if a desk lamp is on the table. However…. it's driving me CRAZY as my whole intention was just to have a smooth clear top. I have no idea what to do now. There are about 8-10 coats on top.

I don't know if I should now sand everything down and try something else? Should I cover it with shellac - and then an oil poly instead or a wipe on? This is in an apartment so I don't have a garage to work with.


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## BroncoBrian (Jan 14, 2013)

A few things…

I would use High Performance from General Finishes over the product you used to start (in the future)
. Also, the marks look like you tried to smooth out finish that was already drying, that is why you see brush marks. They are probably deeper in the finishes. Sanding that out is the only fix if you are worried about it.

I would also visit Woodcraft if nearby and get the inexpensive blue sanding squares (cushioned) from Festool and you only need to go to 300. 3000 is not going to do anything for you to get deep enough to work out a streak or imperfection. Those sanding pads should be used lightly and they are amazing. Easy, cheap, and available.


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## therealSteveN (Oct 29, 2016)

I agree with the High Performance suggestion. I first tried water based poly with that dreadful Minwax crap, so I feel your frustrations. Much to do with the product itself.

I would add the caveat, if I were looking for long lasting protection, on a surface as dark as yours, where I wasn't afraid of some slight yellowing. I would have gone oil based here. Almost foolproof, again, if you use a quality product.

If I want to go fast through the grits on touch up. I like these a lot. Fast to use, the MicroMesh cuts very well for the grit used, and with the soft pads I get a better tactile feel than with paper.

https://www.amazon.com/Micro-Mesh-Soft-Touch-Pads/dp/B003ELH7AI

If the above looks like a good thing to try, shop around, other places have recently smoked this price.


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## pintodeluxe (Sep 12, 2010)

I spray all my finishes with lacquer. Buy a $40 gravity feed HVLP gun, and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer. I use Rudd non-yellowing Duracat 550. Two coats with a light scuff sanding in between. I'm talking 800-1000 grit soft sanding sponge. If you want to go crazy, add a third coat.

You obviously want a professional looking finish. Brush / rag marks aren't going to cut it. Step up to spraying and never look back.


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## BroncoBrian (Jan 14, 2013)

> I spray all my finishes with lacquer. Buy a $40 gravity feed HVLP gun, and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer. I use Rudd non-yellowing Duracat 550. Two coats with a light scuff sanding in between. I m talking 800-1000 grit soft sanding sponge. If you want to go crazy, add a third coat.
> 
> You obviously want a professional looking finish. Brush / rag marks aren t going to cut it. Step up to spraying and never look back.
> 
> - pintodeluxe


What is your clean up process for the sprayer? I will go this route, especially for more complex builds where a clean corner to corner finish is difficult. Cabinet interiors warrant a sprayer for sure. But I have not done this yet…


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## LesB (Dec 21, 2008)

Other possibilities that caused you problem
1. The ambient temperature can affect the results. To warm and the poly starts to set up before the brush strokes have leveled out. Too cool and the finish drys so slowly that dust has a chance to settle in the finish. I find 65 to 75 degrees the best. Also humidity can contribute in the same manner.
2. If the poly is old (over 1 year) it does not seem to level out properly. Replace it. 
3. Application. You need to work quickly, don't "stretch" out the brush strokes or work with a "dry" brush, but apply as much as you can without getting runs, and avoid over working the finish or back brushing when ever possible.

The large flat surface you were working on makes it harder to do with a brush but it can be one (#3 above). In this case praying would work better no matter what the product is.

Almost everyone dislikes the finishing process so join the crowd. LOL


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> What is your clean up process for the sprayer? I will go this route, especially for more complex builds where a clean corner to corner finish is difficult. Cabinet interiors warrant a sprayer for sure. But I have not done this yet…
> 
> - BroncoBrian


You can leave lacquer in the sprayer (not a gravity feed though, they don't seal tightly). I have a 2 qt pressure pot that I never empty or clean. There's no need to. I just stir up the flatteners (I use a satin sheen) and spray away. I do disassemble the gun to clean the needle, nozzle, etc. For that I use acetone on a paper towel to clean the needle and a mason jar of acetone to soak the rest.


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## pintodeluxe (Sep 12, 2010)

> What is your clean up process for the sprayer? I will go this route, especially for more complex builds where a clean corner to corner finish is difficult. Cabinet interiors warrant a sprayer for sure. But I have not done this yet…
> 
> - BroncoBrian


Spray about 2 oz. of lacquer thinner through the gun. Take the needle, tip and nozzle off the gun and soak it in a tupperware container with lacquer thinner. Remove the filter that sits below the gravity feed cup and toss that in the thinner too. I turn the whole gun upside down in the tupperware container.

I do that clean out procedure after each coat, and it takes less than 5 minutes. If I'm putting the gun away to store, I soak everything for 5-10 minutes and put the gun back together. The tupperware full of thinner can be re-used several times.

Good luck!


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## Ocelot (Mar 6, 2011)

If these streaks are always coming up in the same places, I would suspect a sanding issue.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

I'm surprised it took so many comments for someone (Ocelot) to say what I was thinking. Any part of the surface that is not perfectly flat and smooth will be highlighted by light reflecting off the finish. (Of course if these are coming up in different places then it's probably some other issue..)


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## yakattack (Jun 16, 2020)

Hi All,

I got up this morning and was so annoyed with it - I took my orbital sander to it…. then thought it was strange that the room seems smoky.. (orbital sander has a vacuum bag on it)... but I guess the poly dust just went everywhere… so I spent a couple hours removing 1 billion particles with a vacuum then took the damn thing outside to do on the balcony - which should have been done in the first place…..

I spent a while using 120 grit on a 5" hook/loop - and I believe I got 99% of it off on both desk (I have two). Current status of them both:





































The above are the desk from the original post. There is also a second desk (i'm making two). You can see how it's color is more uniform. I believe this is due to my original sanding when I had first started working on them - and it took some of the linseed oil off. To my knowledge, the GERTON desk from Ikea comes with boiled linseed oil, behandla , on it? I had sanded down before starting anything but I guess after working with the poly, some of it went more than the other desk. Anyways, this is the color of desk 2.




























You can kind of see how now just the top layer has the poly removed - and the sides still remain. On the note of the sanding being the issue - when I would put on the water poly and look at it on an angle in the light- it would be uniform and smooth… almost like a coating of icing or frost perfectly even. After lightly sanding to remove dust nibs and such, the streaks may have come in.

Anyways - Now that I got it off …. what is the consensus on how to best proceed? Will a wipe-on be more full proof? Should I lacquer spray outside? All I have to work with is my balcony (now in the summer) but it is windy and such so I wouldn't want to leave it out there to dry long - may get super dusty as it cures. Working with a water based would be a bit easier/less messy due to not having a work shop here.


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## yakattack (Jun 16, 2020)

I should also note…. is there something I can put on desk 1 to make it more uniform before starting the protective coating now? A stain of some sort… will those different color streaks of wood show through? I do want the look of the natural wood and the same tone (nothing dark or light)... but would like it a bit more even if possible. Not a big deal if can't. Desk 2 is okay.


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## CaptainKlutz (Apr 23, 2014)

The original photos look to me like top was not smooth before you started. That or you added some ridges brushing a partially dried surface, then you over coated them with more poly. ??

My Suggestion now that you sanded it back down:

1) Apply some Aquacoat (or Crystalac) clear wood filler. The sand top smooth. Wipe it down with mineral spirits to check for any imperfections. Add a second coat if you find any grain not filled,.

2) Spray your choice of WB coating. Grab a $15 HD purple HVLP spray gun, and spray straight from can with no thinning. Have used that same gun for both GF Enduro and Varathane WB poly. If your RH is really low and temp is above 90° like here in Arizona, might get orange peel or dry spray with light coat; then add 5% of 50/50 water/alcohol blend. You want to lay down a full wet coat to ensure it levels out. Practice on some cardboard boxes first till you get the right technique and spray pattern/pressure. You will amazed at how easy it lays down, once you get gun set up.

IMHO - Neither of the above WB clear coats are durable enough on table tops that see much abuse. I would use Arm-R-Seal (solvent based poly) or spray pre-cat lacquer before I would use either of those WB coatings. YMMV

Best Luck.


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## Axis39 (Jul 3, 2019)

So, those streaks were where you had sanded through the previous finish? Problem solved, continue sanding until it's all off. Unless you know exactly what was on there before, there may not be any way to even out the color.

If I was going to put a finish on top of a store bought product, I would either sand all of the existing finish off, or I would sand very, very lightly… Just enough to break the surface and give my finish something to stick to. I would probably also use a coat of shellac to seal the existing finish before applying whatever I wanted to use as a top coat.

Oh, and yes, those sanded through streaks would effect any stain you tried to apply as well.


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## tvrgeek (Nov 19, 2013)

GF. New to me. Anyway, I spray my finishes, water or oil. Cheap HF gun.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

I always sand the first coat, sometimes second, back to until smooth, then go from there. A good brush makes a huge difference but I used a smooth paint roller on one project and was shocked at how good it looked. Spray equipment would be better but I don't build enough to justify it.


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## yakattack (Jun 16, 2020)

Thanks all. I will take a look and see what to do from here. Regarding Capt. Klut'z comments on "Crystlac". I'm not familiar with that but just did a quick search…. would something like this also work?










Also, regarding the color… perhaps a gel stain may help smooth out the blotchy/ness?


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## CaptainKlutz (Apr 23, 2014)

^^^
Sorry, have never used any of Crystalac top coatings. Only the clear grain filler. Local woodcraft stopped carrying the clear grain filler, and switched to Aquacoat. So that is what I used lately on large open grain woods under clear top coats without stain.
Cheers!


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## CWWoodworking (Nov 28, 2017)

I'll probably get crucified for this but I'll say it anyway.

I hate water based. It never turns out for me, and I just don't like the look. Maybe they came a long way since last time I tried. I'll take who's ever word for it if that's the case.

OP, if you can't spray, try arm a seal or a wipe on poly. IMO a better option.


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## dbw (Dec 2, 2013)

> I would also visit Woodcraft if nearby and get the inexpensive blue sanding squares (cushioned) from Festool and you only need to go to 300. 3000 is not going to do anything for you to get deep enough to work out a streak or imperfection. Those sanding pads should be used lightly and they are amazing. Easy, cheap, and available.
> 
> - BroncoBrian


Can you please provide me with a part # for the squares of which you speak?


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## dbw (Dec 2, 2013)

> I hate water based. It never turns out for me, and I just don't like the look. Maybe they came a long way since last time I tried. I'll take who's ever word for it if that's the case.
> 
> OP, if you can't spray, try arm a seal or a wipe on poly. IMO a better option.
> 
> - CWWoodworking


I tend to agree. I will admit, however, the GF High Performance WB Poly is very good.

I recently discovered GF Gel Topcoat. It gives very good results and is easy to apply. It only comes in satin.


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## CaptainKlutz (Apr 23, 2014)

> I hate water based. It never turns out for me, and I just don't like the look.
> 
> - CWWoodworking


You are not alone. 
I dislike ALL WB products for various reasons. But will admit they can be a decent choice in certain conditions:

- The water clear nature of WB takes away warmth provided by old school amber top coat. Looks fine for modern designs, or IKEA clone furniture, but not when using darker colored woods. When used over stains or dyes; often have to pick a warmer color to compensate for missing amber tint. This requires resetting your color balance and stain/dye formulas if you change between WB and solvent top coats.

GF has added tint to some Enduro products trying to fix this aspect. But it goes on PINK and looks like crap for first couple days. The amber dyes in GF Enduro don't' age well in can once opened, which will make the coating stay PINK forever. The dye has a short open can shelf life, worst then open can of Arm-R-Seal IME.

That said: WB can be prefect when top coating a river table for UV protection of epoxy where you don't want the river looking like it is full of bear piss after a couple years. lol

My primary use of WB poly has been for drawer boxes. Easy to spray, fast drying, don't need amber tint, and durable enough for even tool drawers. If bottom gets scraped, add a felt bottom.  WB pre-cat lacquer are fine for book cases, and gently used cabinets away from kids.

Note: 
Be sure when using WB coatings to keep wax/oils away from your wood after final sanding. WB coatings will not wet out areas with wax residue like a solvent finish, and leaves an ugly defect. So keep your wax based tack cloth as far away as possible. Use microfiber cloth instead.

YMMV


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## yakattack (Jun 16, 2020)

Thanks for the input everyone. I'll keep sanding it down to get it even look (possibly removing that original linseed oil stain) - and then decide on what to do with space/time I have. Couple follow up questions…

1) Regarding Wipe-On Oil poly's such as Minwax's (or any other one)..... I know it is best to store oil soaked rags in a metal can with some water/soap so it doesn't bunch up and catch fire post-use as it drys/heats up. Does the same apply to everything around the project? Plastic drop cloths, newspaper soaking up drips etc… Would it be fine to simply wipe it all down (table, floor, drips, etc) with a tshirt and then throw it in a metal can with water?

2) I've seen general fishes arm-r-seal mentioned here and elsewhere as well, in addition to lacquer spray as being good ones. From the product it mentions:

"Dry-time to touch is 12 hours
Dry-time to re-coat is 24 hours
Dry-time before light use is 7-10 days
Dry-time until cured is 30 days"

Would I need to wait 7-10 days before flipping the thing over on sawhorses to then do the opposite side?

Also is the smell really bad/lingering for a while? I would turn off my HVAC system (there is one in the apartment but it's an air handler, not a furnace) - and leave it off for a while to allow any fumes to dissapte.


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## CWWoodworking (Nov 28, 2017)

Crack the balcony door and put a fan in it. That is enough ventilation if your not spraying.

Do both side at once. Put some screws through a sacrificial peice of wood, then screw that upside down to the saw horses.

Bottom side first, then flip on to the screws. The screws will leave very little markings and you won't see them anyways.


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## dbw (Dec 2, 2013)

To the best of my knowledge it's oil/stain soaked rags which are bunched up you have to worry about. I have been wrong before, though. At times I take my oily rags and lay them out flat in the middle of my concrete floor until they are dry.


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## jonah (May 15, 2009)

You can also hang rags over the side of a metal trash can until they dry, then throw them away.

I like GF water based just fine. It's not as good as arm r seal but it's not bad.


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## yakattack (Jun 16, 2020)

Thank you for the help everyone. I decided to go with an oil this time. And will work on it over the next few weeks when I have some time. Question regarding the fumes/vapors. I know they are flammable/explode etc…. now this may sound stupid…. but could these vapors ignite/spark the motors running on either the bathroom exhaust fan or normal fans for circulation if they're running to remove the smell? Planning to run a fan near an open screen door.


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## Sark (May 31, 2017)

I think you are safe running the vent fans because the moving air keeps the vapors from getting too concentrated.


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## yakattack (Jun 16, 2020)

Well I started in on the oil. Looks decent for the most part. I do have a couple ridges however. It is a gloss sheen. I assume sanding the spots where the ridges are, then re-apply the poly in coats to get it back to even with the rest is the course of action?

Will the sanding dull that area compared to the rest of the table?


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## CaptainKlutz (Apr 23, 2014)

FWIW:
Do not sand ridges, runs, or high spots! Always scrape or file them off with painters nib file.
If you have short single cut bastard file, can make you own nib file.
With a light touch, a sharp card scraper even works.

You will do less damage. With practice, might not even need more poly. Most you need is to buff the scraped off area and match the sheen level.

Note: The finish needs to be cured before filing high dust nibs or defects. 
If you attempt to file to early, when it is gummy underneath; it will smear and leave dark gummy residue.

YMMV


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## yakattack (Jun 16, 2020)

I will look into it thanks. The ridges are in a couple spots. In one area, it almost looks like small concave little round shape, with a ridge as a ring-border. That area must have got missed somehow. Another spot has a couple tiny ridges in a channel like formation with a lower depressed area between them.

Would those tools scratch the poly?


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

When you use a card scraper for that purpose, you want one that's thin, flexible, and you do not want to turn a burr on it. You want nice straight square edges. It will scrape without digging in, allowing you to level the defect without affecting the surrounding area.

The Lee Valley Super-Thin Milled Scraper fits the bill perfectly. Right out of the box they're ready to go.

Here are a few of my favorite tools for the job:










In the center you can see the scraper mentioned above. At top is the Köenig Tools Metal Planer. It is pricey, but is the top-of-the-line tool and worth every penny. At bottom left is the Steck and at bottom right is the AirVantage with a two-sided insert.

If I had to choose only one, I'd go with the AirVantage.

Given what I see in the photo, leveling that ridge will require touch-up. The problem with varnish is that it doesn't blend well with the surrounding area, leaving a visible repair. I use aerosol lacquer for touch-up and repair regardless of the original finish. The trick is to just hide the repair. You don't want to see a wet spot form. Just lightly mist the area, keeping the can moving and waiting a few seconds between each pass.


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