# Rooftop deck change: why is there a leak now?



## boston_guy (Jul 7, 2012)

I'm in a 12-unit, 3-storey condo building. I'm on the top floor and have a rooftop deck that I can access from my kitchen.

Last spring we had a new shingle roof installed. Then in the summer three of the condos that have a rooftop deck got new decks built by the same roofer. Also, below the decks, the roofer installed a new rubber roof.

The photo below shows how the area immediately in front of my deck door looked like before I got the new deck built.



And the photo below shows how the same area looks like after the new deck was built. It was taken during the current crazy snow winter we've had in Boston.



The reason I'm posting this thread is that on Sunday my downstairs neighbor woke me up at 1:30am because he had a leak in his living room. We soon determined that it was coming from the area right in front of my deck door (where there is ice). On Sunday night it was relatively warm and the ice in the gutter above the door and on the floor was melting, and the water gathered in front of my deck door, came up to the level of my deck door threshold, and then found its way into my neighbor's living room ceiling below me. If my neighbor had not caught the leak, the water would have also entered my kitchen. We placed buckets under the gutter and this stopped the leak into my neighbor's condo.

My question is this: I have lived in this condo building since 2004. When I had the old deck, I never had this leak issue. What is it about the new deck construction in front of my deck door do you think caused the leak?

Any feedback will be highly appreciated!


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

Bad install. Contact the condo association and have them fix it since they should be responsible for the exterior maintenance.. I'm assuming that they were the ones who also had the work done? At least that's the way it works in every condo I've lived in and owned. Some have crazy rules/policies though..

Reminds me of a funny story that happened to me a few years ago. I Have a first floor condo, and the bathtub in the second floor unit above us started leaking. Every time they would drain the tub, water would pour down through our bathroom ceiling and down the walls. The condo association came out and agreed to have the repairs done, BUT…. according to the regs, they were responsible for the walls (drywall) and everything inside them (plumbing, wiring, etc..), but nothing that is 'attached' to the walls. They agreed to fix the plumbing and our damaged drywall, however, paint and baseboards are considered 'attached' to the wall, so I was responsible for re-painting and installing new baseboards!! They actually wound up doing the baseboards anyway, since there was only a couple feet that needed replacing, but I had to do the painting myself. Go figure.

Cheers,
Brad


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## boston_guy (Jul 7, 2012)

Just curious. Why do you say it was a bad install?


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

> Just curious. Why do you say it was a bad install?


LOL.. because if it was a good install, it wouldn't leak 

If I had to guess, they probably didn't do a good job sealing up around the threshold with membrane, but without actually seeing it in person, kind of hard to tell what it might be..

Cheers,
Brad


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## boston_guy (Jul 7, 2012)

I hear you.

What about the fact that with the new deck I now have no barrier to the left of my door? This means that I'm now getting much more snow running down to the front of my door and later on becoming ice.

But I have a barrier to the right of my door which actually is a problem because it creates a dam. What you cannot see is that to the right of my door, where the deck ends, is a gutter which is now packed with ice that has created yet another barrier, preventing water in front of my door to escape.

Below is a close-up of how much ice formed in front of my door.



And below is a photo of the gutter to the right of my door where the water was supposed to flow into. As you can see, it was packed with snow and ice, thus preventing water to flow away from the door. In fact, when I took this photo I had already cleared quite a bit of snow and ice with a shovel.


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## Ghidrah (Jan 20, 2015)

Your 1st pic shows the ice up to the threshold that means whatever ice liquefied got under it and began leaking through the subfloor to the ceiling below. It must have been a substantial amount to cause the leak to appear so quickly. If water got under the threshold it likely froze, expanding and likely made the door difficult to open smoothly. That is one old door, wood panel with cracks and wooden threshold

1. What is the depth from the bottom of the threshold to the roof deck? It should be a minimum of 4" to provide a kick and prevent/minimize infiltration. 
2. Did the contractor remove the door to install a pan under the door?
3. If so did the contractor run the rubber roof up and over the subfloor?
4. Why did you allow the ice to build up to the threshold?

The deck is framed to the building beside the entry. 
1. Did the contractor run the rubber roof up the wall before attaching the box?
2. Anywhere a deck post is placed also needs to be sealed with double the effort and concern.
3. Was a building permit pulled by the condo owner and or contractor? 
4. If so was the work inspected by the town?
5. If so was the roofing work inspected prior to the deck construction?

It's also possible any and all seams under the deck may or may not have been properly sealed which means the leak can be coming from anywhere and running along the ceiling joists to a low spot in the ceiling and pooling.

Without seeing the blue print for the structure by code there should be a bearing wall under that entry, if not the wall, roof deck below and possibly the eave above could be sagging


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## Bobbal (Feb 24, 2015)

Boston Guy, I used to sell roofing in a building supply. Boston has been hit with two winters worth of snow in about a month. If the gutter drain is iced up the water will back up. It will migrate through any openings where the water would normally roll by. The door could be properly flashed and it still could happen. It also happens on pitched roofs too. We used to recommend wrapping the edge of the roof with ice and water shield and roll it behind the gutter onto the fascia board if possible. That way if the gutter iced up water would not back up into the house as it would be stopped by the ice and water shield. I am assuming the roof surface under the deck is flat (less than a 2 pitch). You need to know what membrane was put down before attempting any kind of repair. Some are EPDM and some asphalt based (called mop down) They are not compatible and you could destroy an EPDM membrane by applying a asphalt based product or flashing cement. With snowfall like you guys have had, the may be no fix other than a drain heater to keep the drains clear.


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## dhazelton (Feb 11, 2012)

I know there was a ton of snow all at at once, but did you keep it shoveled off? I would say that if ice built up like that on the roof deck that it may not be properly insulated from underneath. Almost everyone around me has huge ice dams and broken gutters. I had my eaves and roof deck insulated with spray foam and I now have zero melting and no more icicles.


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## boston_guy (Jul 7, 2012)

Photos of doorway after I removed some ice today.


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## Ghidrah (Jan 20, 2015)

While it is true ice damming can cause problems, they are problems that take time and require thawing of the ice filling the gutter and backing up. Repeated thaw freeze cycle between gutters and fascia boards will distort the gutter. Most water infiltration occurs do to fascia rot, even then most if not all drains out the soffit when it melts. Ice damming is also known to freeze thaw cycle up between shingles, usually asphalt, then run down to the eave. This can be an issue with unpapered roof decks and rusty roofer nails. Ice /water barrier solves this issue. The shallower the roof pitch the higher up the roof the disruption can travel. However, this does take time to build up, excluding an outright hole in the roof 1 foot up from the eave where rain can pour through it can take 6 mos or more to manifest as a water stain on a ceiling. It takes time to drag the dirt and fine dust through the drywall, compound, paper, primer and paint.

Your threshold is in contact with the roof deck, one of the pics shows a missing section of threshold. Still no mention of whether the door was removed to flash it properly or whether it was permitted and inspected.

It also looks like the base of the deck may be in contact with the roof, this is also bad, friction between to dissimilar materials, flexing and expansion/contraction. One pic shows the wall at the edge of the deck where a gutter may be swamped under snow and ice, there's a bunch of black spots around the gutter that may be holes exposing the wall behind the siding


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## boston_guy (Jul 7, 2012)

Ghidrah,

Thank you very much for your careful feedback. I have tried to answer your questions below.

1) 1".
2) No.
3) See #2.
4) I did not allow the ice to build up. My neighbor (who has an identical deck, adjacent to mine) and I would always shovel the snow after each snow storm. Our decks are quite big and we did not want the roof to cave in, especially since there are 2 floors below us. We're on the 3rd floor (the top floor). The condos below us are twice as big so they stretch out further, and our decks on the 3rd floor are on the part that stretches out beyond our condos (if this makes sense). However, a layer of snow would always build up in front of our deck doors, no matter how much we shoveled. In fact, this applied to the whole deck. Keep in mind that when we were asleep, it would often be snowing. When we would wake up, there would be ice in front of our deck doors. This meant we sometimes couldn't open the screen doors! We would then have to go outside and enter the deck via the fire egress. The leak occurred at 1:30am Sunday morning. When my neighbor called me, we went to the deck door, since that was the only area that could have water. When we opened the door, there was water on the threshold. In fact, it was just about to enter my kitchen. After removing the water from the threshold, we placed buckets under the gutter above the door because the ice dams were melting (it was a relatively warm night). This stopped the leak. Before the leak started the ice in front of the door was just under the door level. I think when the ice dam in the gutter began to melt and leak onto the area in front of the door, it just built up on top of the ice till it got onto the threshold. From the threshold there appears to be a very slim gap on each side of the door framing. I think water entered these two gaps and then went to my neighbor's living room ceiling. From the ceiling it poured out of the ceiling through a light fixture. He placed a bucket underneath. He told me that altogether there was one inch of water in the bucket.

The funny thing is that I had already bought a new deck door. It was custom ordered. My carpenter was waiting for the snow and ice to melt before installing it. Now I'm going to make sure that this is done very carefully.

The roofer has been notified about the leak and said he will try to swing by today.

Second set of answers:

1. Yes, if I recall correctly (the deck was built this past summer).
2) You did not ask a question.
3) Yes. The contractor is a major roofer in my area. Has a very good reputation.
4) The condo trustees would know.
5) The condo trustees would know.

What I'm trying to understand is why did I not have such a leak during the old deck? What about the construction of the door area back then may have prevented the problem I now have? I have provided photos of the old and new deck above.



> Your 1st pic shows the ice up to the threshold that means whatever ice liquefied got under it and began leaking through the subfloor to the ceiling below. It must have been a substantial amount to cause the leak to appear so quickly. If water got under the threshold it likely froze, expanding and likely made the door difficult to open smoothly. That is one old door, wood panel with cracks and wooden threshold
> 
> 1. What is the depth from the bottom of the threshold to the roof deck? It should be a minimum of 4" to provide a kick and prevent/minimize infiltration.
> 2. Did the contractor remove the door to install a pan under the door?
> ...


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## boston_guy (Jul 7, 2012)

There is no piece missing in the threshold. It's just the photo.



> While it is true ice damming can cause problems, they are problems that take time and require thawing of the ice filling the gutter and backing up. Repeated thaw freeze cycle between gutters and fascia boards will distort the gutter. Most water infiltration occurs do to fascia rot, even then most if not all drains out the soffit when it melts. Ice damming is also known to freeze thaw cycle up between shingles, usually asphalt, then run down to the eave. This can be an issue with unpapered roof decks and rusty roofer nails. Ice /water barrier solves this issue. The shallower the roof pitch the higher up the roof the disruption can travel. However, this does take time to build up, excluding an outright hole in the roof 1 foot up from the eave where rain can pour through it can take 6 mos or more to manifest as a water stain on a ceiling. It takes time to drag the dirt and fine dust through the drywall, compound, paper, primer and paint.
> 
> Your threshold is in contact with the roof deck, one of the pics shows a missing section of threshold. Still no mention of whether the door was removed to flash it properly or whether it was permitted and inspected.
> 
> ...


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## boston_guy (Jul 7, 2012)

Ghidrah,

Here's a photo that shows why you thought a piece of the threshold was missing. It's a piece of the roofing that makes it look as though a piece of the threshold wood has broken off.


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## dhazelton (Feb 11, 2012)

Were you the one asking for washer/dryer surround info? Does this outside door then step DOWN into your kitchen? You have a LOT of bizzare substandard questionable stuff going on with this building. Why is the storm door hinged on the right and the entry door hinged on the left? Why is the roofing material basically flush with an unpainted threshold? You live in the cold North East - why do you have an uninsulated exterior door? You ask questions and want answers that no one can give you a cheap or easy answer to remedy. That deck should never have gotten as high as it is. I'm surprised water never backed up into the kitchen, which if I recall is a lawsuit waiting to happen because it has a huge stepdown that if a fireman or someone had to come in because of a fire in the building and they weren't aware of it they would break an ankle. A deck should never be put on top of a shingled roof. I't should be a seamless rubber membrane and everything properly flashed. Even when done right with materials available today the sun will degrade things and it's inviting trouble.


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## boston_guy (Jul 7, 2012)

A few more photos…

The deck viewed from my deck door. The door at the end of the deck is the fire egress:



The view of my deck door from my neighbor's deck. There's a slight slope toward my door that is supposed to let water drain past my door and onto the gutter which you cannot see. There's space under the open screen door and deck wood behind the same screen door. On the other side of the deck wood is a roof gutter:



The gutter above my deck door (notice the dam):


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## boston_guy (Jul 7, 2012)

Hi dhazelton,

Yes, I'm the same guy who was asking for washer/dryer surround info. What can I tell you? Our 12-unit building was built in the 1920s! I bought this condo in 2004 (when the building was converted to condos). It used to be a rental apartment building. The building's owner sold it as is.

Let me try to answer your questions:

1) You state: Does this outside door then step DOWN into your kitchen?

Yes, the deck door steps down into my kitchen. This is how my door looks like from my kitchen:



2) You state: Why is the storm door hinged on the right and the entry door hinged on the left?

I have no idea why the deck door and storm door hinges are mounted on opposite sides. In fact, I had not realized this until you mentioned it! (Thanks!). In any case, the storm door will be coming out. I'm getting a new door that does not require a screen.

3) You state: Why is the roofing material basically flush with an unpainted threshold?

I have no idea. My new threshold will come as part of the custom-ordered door which is pre-hung. The threshold will be aluminum. Is this good?

4) You state: You live in the cold North East - why do you have an uninsulated exterior door?

I don't know. I can only guess that the building's previous owner was cheap. If you look at one of the photos I've posted, you'll notice that the fire egress door on the other side of the deck is an interior door.

5) You state: That deck should never have gotten as high as it is.

You think it's too high? What should have been the right height?

6) You state: A deck should never be put on top of a shingled roof.

This one is easy to answer. The roofer installed the building's main roof last Spring. That roof is a shingled roof. Then last Summer he took out the 3 old rooftop decks in the building. However, these decks are on a separate roof which is flat. On this roof the material was always rubber. After the old decks were removed the roofer installed a new rubber roof.



> Were you the one asking for washer/dryer surround info? Does this outside door then step DOWN into your kitchen? You have a LOT of bizzare substandard questionable stuff going on with this building. Why is the storm door hinged on the right and the entry door hinged on the left? Why is the roofing material basically flush with an unpainted threshold? You live in the cold North East - why do you have an uninsulated exterior door? You ask questions and want answers that no one can give you a cheap or easy answer to remedy. That deck should never have gotten as high as it is. I m surprised water never backed up into the kitchen, which if I recall is a lawsuit waiting to happen because it has a huge stepdown that if a fireman or someone had to come in because of a fire in the building and they weren t aware of it they would break an ankle. A deck should never be put on top of a shingled roof. I t should be a seamless rubber membrane and everything properly flashed. Even when done right with materials available today the sun will degrade things and it s inviting trouble.
> 
> - dhazelton


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## Ghidrah (Jan 20, 2015)

Boston_guy,

I'm sorry this is so long.

It's now obvious the threshold is in contact with the roof deck, when I 1st asked it was because I made the mistake of assuming the distance would be at a minimum 4" spacing to allow for a kickboard.

In one of the pics it shows the band against the structure it looks like the deck is constructed with 2X8 PT and 1×6 PT decking. My question is the material below the joist; it looks like there is what's called a sleeper board. Whatever the reason they have for installing it, it is wrong, The sun deck should not be in contact with the roof deck, they could have tacked rubber roofing to the underside of the outer joist to prevent crap from getting under the deck, but as soon as the PT decking begins shrinking up the point is moot, all the crap in the world will slide down between the decking, unless they installed mesh screening which I seriously doubt.

Joists in contact with the roof deck subjects it to friction, pressure and movement will eventually wear through the membrane. Rubber roofing under proper conditions has maybe a 15 yr warranty, (when installed by a registered, by the manufacturer as a qualified installer of their product) the warranty may be a few yrs longer now; it's been 8 plus yrs since I last applied one. PT decking above ground has 25 yrs plus life span, I have PT decking taken from a property that was installed in 1981, I removed it and I've used it on small decks, made tables and benches with it, ugly but strong as ever.

The junk collects there because the area is a wind trap, that's what corners do, door wall/deck/walkway wrapped by deck and wall, 2nd pic. No need to explain snow fall, I'm about 70 miles south of Boston. I had to remove the screen panel on our side storm to get out when the 1st big one hit the Cape.

The easy bet is on the door, -0- clearance at the threshold, water flowing from the roof, trapped in an area it can't flow away from because the deck sleeper, walls and step riser dams it. The roof in front of the entry most likely sags in that area promoting the ponding effect. If the door closes properly and it has a viable draft stop on the bottom no water will make it into your kit over the top. The threshold has linear cracks/splits the water is entering the threshold from the splits. If there is no pan under the threshold and it's obvious no water barrier, its on top of the nosing the water will eventually work its way under your flooring and the water staining will expand in the unit below.

The neighbors light fixture is the low point in the room, is the room under your kitchen or under the roof deck?

2. Wasn't a question it was a comment alluding to the quality of the workmanship and all the errors that may be there and hidden under the framing.

Building permits are a matter of public record and anyone can ask for verification at the town hall.

1. I'm guessing the old deck was lighter than the new one and its footprint didn't force as much material toward the door.
2. The existing door looks pretty old and battered; the work done around it last summer could have been the proverbial straw. If the roofer attempted to lap roofing membrane over the threshold that made matters worse, because whatever water makes it through the top of the threshold will have no way to flow back outside, the roofing acts as a dam.

Yikes the next couple pics of the door from inside and from the side. No way in hell that passed an inspection by the building dept. unless money passed hands to cover it up, and I don't want to believe that, I feel bad for you; I just don't see it, you have a horror show on your hands, take as many pics as you can to date and document all of it, including neighbors affected by the errors.

The side view is blurry against the kit wall, what is the dark material running up to the window and under the vinyl siding? Rubber membrane? Roll roofing? The riser on the decks bottom step should not be in contact with the roof it also traps junk in that small space. Your roof pic looks like a 6 pitch, (shallow) the attic area may not be adequately insulated and this may cause the snow to melt fast instead of sloughing off as snow. The pic shows your door has already been raised up from the original floor by a couple inches and it also looks like the hinge side of the threshold is higher than the striker side unless its an optical illusion.

Man I am so bummed for you!


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## dhazelton (Feb 11, 2012)

I had some call me to replace a skylight. The original was just a double wall plastic dome nailed to the roof and he tarred it every year. But moisture from heat/cooling actually caused a buildup of water in the thing and I had to drill a hole in the outside layer to drain it. So I tell him his roof pitch isn't ideal for a skylight PLUS he has two layers of brittle old shingles and the switch should be made when he redoes the roof and goes down to a clean deck. He said 'just do it' so I do my best to weave new shingles into brittle crumbling old ones, do the proper flashing kit, use roofing cement along where I can etc. First torrential rainstorm he calls the next day and said it leaks. I go back and inspect everything and re tar where I can. It could have been leaking from one of the old brittle shingles higher up that I tried to gently lift, I don't know.

Anyway, whoever did your deck may just be a deck builder and have no experience putting a deck on a roof. In my opinion a roof deck should never be placed over someone's living space, there's just too much to go wrong. A lot of contractors will just do what you ask and take the money and move on.


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## Ghidrah (Jan 20, 2015)

dhazelton,

This is why you have a disclaimer written into you hard copy contract along with a verbal rendition of the problem to the owner. Then one has owner/proxy sign and date disclaimer stating they have read and understand the issue.

Skylights are nice to look out at the stars or a cool landscape but they do not insulate worth a crap no matter what is between the glass and what the R value is. All are condensate magnets. Back in the late 80s I did an addition on a house, (dining room) with an Andersen skylight. 4 to 5 yrs later I get a call from the owner saying there's a leak. For the 1st 4 yrs they thought there tiny dog was incontinent. Thanksgiving someone got dripped on at the table.

I knew my work was good but I was taught to prove. I stripped it down to the ice/water barrier I run up all roof deck protrusions, everything was good. I then hosed the roof deck around the skylight for 20 mins. nothing. I reroofed and flashed then did it again, nothing. I waited 30 min then ran water over the skylight and the water began dripping to the floor in less than 5 min. The glass seal was compromised. Told owner and tarped the light.

Went to Lumb yd light bought from with owners paperwork, along with my own mat/lumber list from the build. (Mr. Grady is a pack rat and keeps everything) They ordered a new light. 2 wks later I drive by the house and don't see the tarp I stop in and Mr. and Mrs Grady said we left in the morning and it was gone when we came back. The Andersen distributor delivered and installed the new light free of charge and took my tarp.

This pissed Mr. Grady off because he had no idea one could enter the house with everything locked.


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## dhazelton (Feb 11, 2012)

Same homeowner had his gutter let go from the eave. I get up and see that the roofer shorted the plywood deck an inch from the rafter tail for some reason and didn't put any drip edge on. Water weeped into the rafter tail and fascia and rotted the fascia away letting the gutter nails pull out. I put aluminum flashing under the starter course and made sure it ran past the rafter tail and used some hangers to get the gutter back up. The homeowner asks If I would tear off the first couple of courses and fix it right. I told him what I did was his best chance of not having a leak again and if I tried to weave new into those old brittle shingles I would make it worse. I know it eats him alive that it exists like that but it was the best I could do for him. When you put patch on top of patch sometimes it all goes wrong.


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## boston_guy (Jul 7, 2012)

Hi guys,

Your feedback has been amazing!

I was waiting for the roofer to come by and check out the leak, as he promised. He finally came yesterday afternoon.

According to him, the leak is not coming from the threshold. He thinks it's coming from the dam on the gutter above the door. He thinks the water is working its way behind the vinyl siding (next to my bathroom window) and into my downstairs neighbor's living room ceiling (see photos below). He said that when things thaw out, he will return and do some work behind the siding. He said that normally he would have done work in this area when he was doing the main roof but this would have cost the condo association much more, and he felt that we had already put down some big bucks. So what he's proposing is that he will do a temporary fix behind the vinyl siding that may take us for a number of years before requiring a permanent fix.

In terms of my deck door area, he said that since I'm planning on replacing it (I already ordered a custom pre-hung door and it's in my hallway), my carpenter should take out the present old door then he (the roofer) will flash the area where the new door frame will go and replace any rubber roofing that may be cut in the process. After the flashing is done, my carpenter can then install the new deck door. He warned that if my carpenter does his own flashing then the warranty on the deck will become void.

If truth be told, I'm actually quite relieved that my new deck door had not been installed. It was supposed to have been installed in late summer but we ran into some delays. If it had been installed before the winter, my carpenter and I would have probably been blamed for the leak!

Now my main concern is to have my new deck door installed properly. I have given my carpenter the cell phone number for the roofer because I want the two of them to coordinate very closely with each other before the new door is installed. Any feedback I can get from the friendly folks on this forum, in terms of how to correctly install this door, will be HIGHLY appreciated. I'm including a photo of my new deck door (below) so that you can see how it looks like. For starters, I'm assuming that the present threshold will be removed since my new door comes with an aluminum threshold. Am I right?

The vinyl siding next to my bathroom window:



Another section of the vinyl siding next to my bathroom window:



My new deck door which is going to replace the present one. It was a custom order and the door is presently in my hallway, waiting to be installed (please notice its threshold):


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## Ghidrah (Jan 20, 2015)

dhazelton,

Absolute truth I got a call to price a new roof on a ranch, the house was surrounded by large oak and maple trees. The asphalt roof should have been replaced 10 yrs earlier; it was in such bad shape it had swollen/heaved then cracked over the yrs. The gutters were full of roofing debris, leaves, branches, bugs, grass, moss, mold and I don't know what. The roof deck, (both sides) had grass and moss growing in a bunch of places. Like an abandoned lot.

I refused to climb onto the roof instead I ran my ladder up the gable to the ridge and lowered my tape to the gutter. I hooked on and measured corner board to corner board. I came back a week later handed the estimate to the lady, she asked me to wait while she read the estimate. She looked up and said this is $500 more than the other estimate, I said OK; maybe you need to sit down and compare the 2 estimates to find out the difference between them. My number is at top right with all the other info you need. All he gave me was the price to do the job. Maybe you should call him. I'm home after 5 pretty much every night.

A couple days later she calls back and says the difference is because you're removing the old roof and he says he can roof over it. I almost swallowed my tongue from convulsive laughter. I asked, have you looked at your roof? If you could lift a mower up there you could mow it, the old shingles are so bad they won't hold a nail and the new shingles won't lay flat. You won't have to worry about premature aging, a hard wind will blow them off 1st. Well can you come down some? No, I can't, you have a list of what I'm using and how I intend to do it, call a lumb yd and ask for prices of said mat.

Before I hung up I said good luck, get it in writing and make sure a permit is pulled so it can be inspected. Otherwise the insurance Co will not cover the damage.


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## dhazelton (Feb 11, 2012)

Boston guy - do yourself a favor and get some of that heat tape you install up there so next year if you have another winter like this one you can melt it all off. Chances are your eaves aren't insulated properly to keep the deck cold.

Ghidrah - Your entire tearoff AND debris removal AND starter course AND drip edges AND roofing felt were only $500 more then the guy who wasn't doing any of that and she wanted you to lower the price? Unbelievable. Doesn't that tell her the other guy was probably charging close to triple?

A guy I do some work for has a lot of small commercial buildings. He asked me to cut into an end wall on a wood framed building so he could drive a forklift in. The building had vinyl siding and when I cut the opening to put C channel in the whole wall just flopped away - there wasn't one nail in 10 or 11 feet of that siding. He said when he had it done they did it really fast - that's the reason, they didn't nail anything. He had me just drill holes and nail through the siding instead of taking the courses down. I told him when it gets hot out it will buckle like crazy and he said that's okay. I also screwed up some gutters he had a company put onto two of his buildings. They used one hanger about every 8 or 10 feet. Some contractors should be shot.

Last summer a friend tells me he has a job replacing a guys deck boards. I go to help him as the deck is over 60 ft long. I start looking at how it's heaved and start digging at the footings. There weren't any - the posts were sitting right on the ground and were undersized. Then I look at the deck attachment to the house and there's one spike every three or four bays. No joist hangers anywhere. The railing was only 36 inches high 8 feet off the ground. What was supposed to be a 5 or 6 thousand job turned into 15 as we had to dig and pour footings, put in a new beam to hold everything, hangers and proper fasteners, lag bolts and flashing, new railings etc. The homeowner paid cash for the house and thought an inspection wasn't needed. They didn't want a permit but I made sure everything was done to code in case they ever sold the place. People cheap out and it costs so much more in the end.


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## Ghidrah (Jan 20, 2015)

Boston_guy,

We used to call these buildings triple deckers , later when they, (realtors didn't like the term, affected sales I guess) they changed it to triplex. They must have gotten tired again to change the names to condos.

Don't know how old pic #1 OP is with white 3 tab shings but last post shows snow bound roof with Architectural shingles. I'm going to assume the roof was replaced before or after roof sundeck work. The siding stain beside the door looks pretty old.

Does your 2nd fl. neighbor have a tell tale sign of a pre-existing water problem? This would be anything from a symmetrical to asymmetrical circle/s or ring/s, (expanding puddles) darker than the ceilings primary color. In general a new intrusion is invisible even under close scrutiny unless it is so abundant it drips to the floor. A dark ring means the problem is pre-existing and has been there for a while; each time the area is affected by an intrusion it drags more dissolved dust and dirt with it. The water evaporates but the debris remains in the drywall, joint compound and paint as a stain.

I have a couple suggestions for you if possible.

1. Get a step ladder and take a look at your fascia board above the gutter for holes, I can't tell if your gutter is hangered or ferruled in place. What I can see is the fascia has aluminum below the gutter but none above; whoever did the siding cheated and didn't follow through by removing the gutter. The recent winter pic has ice covering the fascia above the gutter.

2. It appears the pic showing the gutter that the roof deck overflow is supposed to go into is missing. Clear away the ice and snow and take a pic of it, it looked like the siding had been cut poorly.

3. Clear the ice away from the base of the deck hinge side storm door to expose the roof deck, base of deck frame.

2nd pic 1st post below recently installed ext. tap; appears vinyl siding stops, then a couple 3 inches of maybe Tyvek then membrane sealer then membrane. End of membrane should be covered by siding not exposed to weather; I can see nails below siding.

Next to last pic last post, window and sloped wall below, shows same membrane error and worse because of the distorted siding and mangled siding trim. Can't make out what is plugged up behind trim side of window. Add another error whatever it is, it can act as a dam, and at a minimum the gap beside the window is open to the weather, wind driven rain, snow and debris. I never has a use for vinyl siding.


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## dhazelton (Feb 11, 2012)

ALSO - "The vinyl siding next to my bathroom window" - is the vent hard pipe or the flexible plastic (which has a tendency to let water pool up in the low points). Where does the vent go?


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## Ghidrah (Jan 20, 2015)

dhazelton,

In 32 yrs. I never got one call back from any job; this is my MO regarding roofing.
Mustn't forget Ice/water barrier; 3' up from the eave and 18" wide along the gables eave to ridge, I've been using it since 84. I only use 30lb felt, 8" galvy drip, I also run a full width shingle up the gables with 3/4" overhang, it squares the roof deck, provides a drip edge and an obvious mark for cut offs. I center the roof then offset to ensure no end cut will be less than 3" wide then snap lines for every course. I tarp the front and back from freeze to ground, and then out to protect the house, bushes and keep the ground clean. I do all the brain work 1st then I can flake for the rest of it. The only thing I have to pay attention to is not dropping a tool on someone or falling off the roof.

I always had a problem; I had no contemporary equal, the guys that provided the quality labor and materials I did charged a lot more for it. The ones that charged the same or less used inferior mat if at all, didn't paper, snap lines center the roof, skipped nails; many were slobs, apathetic or ignorant. But because the average home owner is usually clueless the bottom line is the dollar. They don't see 30 yr fire resistant shingles as opposed to 20 yr. Some get in and out so fast they don't bother with permits, if something goes wrong, try and get the insurance Co to pay out.

The only time railings must be over 36" is in commercial settings where children are concerned like daycare or schools.

For the same or a few dollars more you probably could have given him a new deck with less labor. Maybe they didn't want a permit but you do, you need to cover your own ass when it comes to possible lawsuits. The 1st thing the insurance co goes after is the contractor, this is why everyone needs a signed and dated hard copy contract and pulled permit with the final signed off by the BD. Even if it's in the owner's name, when the job has been verified by the local BD, the onus falls off your shoulders.

One of the reasons Ma made such a push for licensing contractors in the early 80s was because there were so many lawsuits against build Depts.


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## boston_guy (Jul 7, 2012)

Ghidrah & dhazelton,

I have to admit that you guys know too much about deck construction and carpentry in general. One of the things you don't realize is that it's very tricky for me to follow carpentry lingo. For example, I had to google the word "sleeper," to figure out what you meant by it.

Anyway, there has been some melting which has allowed me to take new photos.

This is how part of the gutter above the deck door looks like after the ice has melted. Let me know if you can spot anything that can cause a leak:



This was my doorway area today when I woke up. Notice the water from the melted ice was just pooling up. Also notice that the corner is blocked by the different layers of wood that hold up the deck:



This is my doorway after I smashed some ice and created a channel away from the pieces of wood in the corner. The water then began to melt the ice under my deck:



This is how the area under my deck (to the right of my deck door) looks like. On the other side of this area is a gutter. Notice how, after the water found a channel, the ice below my deck began to melt:



This is my neighbor's deck doorway area. It's the area under her deck (similar to my area in the photo above). Notice how her pieces of wood that hold up her deck do not block the corner as in my situation. She has not had a leak issue with her downstairs neighbor. I think the reason for this is that her corner is not blocked like mine:



I'm really grateful to you guys because your feedback got me to look at areas that I would never have thought to check out.



> Boston_guy,
> 
> We used to call these buildings triple deckers , later when they, (realtors didn t like the term, affected sales I guess) they changed it to triplex. They must have gotten tired again to change the names to condos.
> 
> ...


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## Ghidrah (Jan 20, 2015)

Boston_guy

Sorry old habit, many terms in construction change from one region to another.

1st pic, it appears aluminum fascia cover was added to eave with new roof. However, there's no way to tell if it is 1 piece or they just slipped a section behind the gutter. Did they remove the gutter when they reroofed? The double starter course should be hanging past the drip edge by a minimum 1/2", I always set it at 3/4"; it acts like a pre-drip edge. It appears the gutter is nailed directly to the aluminum fascia cover. Normally with wooden fascia and soffit the gutter should be offset from the fascia with a 1/2" to 3/4"spacer to allow for air movement in the dry out process.

I can't tell from the pic, is the gutter extruded, (1 piece) or in 10 foot segments? Gutters tend to leak where the segments join including end caps and down spout outlets even if they're caulked. If your gutter was cleaned after the reroof it should be clear of all but ice. Does the upper roof drain into your deck roof or does it go to ground? If it drains to your deck roof gutter you need to clear it there to allow ice melt to flow. If it drains to ground you should try to clear the end of ice and snow then rap the end to loosen any ice plugging the spout.

Regarding the front door area, 
1. There should not be a pooling of liquid anything at the threshold.
2. The outside joist is separating from the band, is the outer joist doubled, (2 joists or 1 joist)? 
3. Unless the deck is supposed to be free floating, (not likely 3 stories up) the band is bolted or lagged to the wall. Considering it is attached to your Kit wall it would be lagged through the sheathing into the wall studs, if so, there is "NO" good reason for the blocks to be at the end of the band holding the deck corner up. They should be a temporary support to help align and or level the deck from one end to the other before fixing it to the house. 
4. All the joists must be hangered to the bands and girt/beam by code, the outer joists, (when at grade) are direct nailed before lagging the band to the house then a split hanger is applied to it if no doubler joist added. If one is added then the split hanger is installed to the inner side of the doubler joist. If you have a doubler you'll see many, hand or gun nails jig-zagging up and down the side of the length of the outer joist. From your 4th pic it doesn't look to be the case.

You should move the ice out of the way for a look under the deck to see if the joists are hangered to the band front to back.

Without being able to put a level or marble to the roof deck at your entry my intuition says the roof deck is sagging, big time. I'd be interested to know the extent of the pooling. Your gutter doesn't appear to be screened, I'd try to clear as much of the ice out of the gutter as I could to allow for ice melt flow.


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## boston_guy (Jul 7, 2012)

Ghidrah,

Like I said, you and dhazelton are just too technical with your language. To be honest, I understood very little from your post above. But thanks from the bottom of my heart for trying to help. I will try to answer the questions which I think I understood:

I just got home at around 11:00pm. The water in front of my doorway has disappeared. I think it's because I created a path in the ice for the water to go to the right of the different wood blocks holding up my deck. This water managed to melt some of the ice under the deck and seep out. This means that if the wood blocks are removed from the corner, which is probably the easiest path for the water, and placed towards the right, I may not have any pooling in front of my door. My neighbor's deck does not have the blocks of wood in the corner (they are a little away from the corner) and she does not have any pooling as a result. Do you see where I'm going with this?

You ask whether the gutters are screened. No, they are not. I know our decks get a lot of leaves, especially during the fall for there are some really tall trees nearby. Are you suggesting that we should have screened gutters? Do screens prevent leaves from entering a gutter?

You ask whether the gutters were removed during reroofing. Yes, the roofer removed the old gutters and installed new ones.

In terms of whether the gutter is extruded or not, it appears to be one piece. I do not notice any connections.

The upper roof drains into the ground.



> Boston_guy
> 
> Sorry old habit, many terms in construction change from one region to another.
> 
> ...


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## Ghidrah (Jan 20, 2015)

I should know something; I've been in the trade since 1978 and licensed as an unrestricted construction supervisor since 1990.

Your post 3/2/15 12:01 1st pic, your roof, black architectural shingles white drip edge. Starter course is flush to white drip edge, should be set 1/2 to 3/4" lower than edge of drip edge. If done drip edge stays dry instead of wet and iced up.

3rd pic, blocks under band and outer joist, should not be there. Band and outer joist separating need to check band from under deck to ensure hangers are present including split hanger on outer joist< (Google split hanger).

4th pic, need to clear ice near blocks to look under deck and back to band for joist hangers and wood lags. If job done right blocks should not be there.

5th pic, cedar shingle between PT blocks and joist, screams temporary.

Does deck area face S? Black roof and rubber membrane absorb all or most wavelengths of light and reflect none. Even under ice a dark roof melts faster.

Screened gutters block anything larger than the openings from getting in the gutters, the 1st couple yrs after new roof will get aggregate in gutter, shingles treated like red headed step mules during install all loose granules make it there. All restrictions, (shingles, leaves, nails, dead things, flush downspout tubes to ensure clear) must be removed during screening to ensure gutter and downspout tubes are clear. I haven't had to clean my gutters in 20 yrs. Did roofer install full aluminum fascia during process?

In the one pic with iced gutter saw no icicles, usually means gutter draining under ice. Half my neighbors have icicles flowing over gutters, the ones that don't have, or have only a few and or small ones have screen.

I believe ensuring clear pathways will help some, if you can get your hands on some marbles or a reliable level you should check your entry area for sag. If so, you could overlay rubber mats in the sag area to displace the water.


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## dhazelton (Feb 11, 2012)

First, what they said about the first course or shingles overhanging the drip edge at least 1/2 inch. Second, the bottom of the aluminum has a little bend to it to kick water out - that one nail they didn't sink all the way home is forcing that kick in and the water can travel into the wood through the shank of the nail. It's just dumb placement of a fastener.

I don't know if your previous deck just sat up there or was lagged to the building. My feeling is that it just floated otherwise your vinyl siding wouldn't be running behind it. It would all be properly flashed.

I have to ask what about that ice damming that was going on near your bathroom? I thought that was the source of your leak? Again, I can almost guarantee that you're eave is improperly insulated, probably missing the baffles that let the roof deck stay cold. And again - do you have a vented bathroom and if you do what is the ductwork made out of - metal or that plastic covered slinky type of stuff? If it's metal it needs to be pitched slightly downward toward the vent outlet so any condensation runs outside.


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## Ghidrah (Jan 20, 2015)

dhazelton,

Just guessing, I believe the siding only goes down to the top of the band. If the membrane goes up 3 or more inches above the band then the seal is good. At minimum the door trim should have been removed to continue the membrane.

I also believe the nail you speak of to the left of the hanger is an intermittent direct nailing between the hangers used to fix the gutter to the fascia. The top of the hanger shown is below the red arrow pointing to the drip lip and bott of starter course.

As for a floater, as far as I know no floaters allowed since 07, 08 or 09 IBC joists must be hangered to band and
beam.

When my house was built the electrician ran the bthrm duct 16' over the attic deck to the gable. It was scary at 1st to her scream, kind of funny later. The moment when the amount of water in the hose overcame the ribbing and back flowed onto her while drying off under the fan. It was late fall and the water was cold. I drained it every fall after that till I remodded the bath then ran it inside the joists through the freeze board like a normal brain would, hasn't back flowed since.


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## boston_guy (Jul 7, 2012)

Ghidrah,

Thank you so much for providing the photos with the arrows. This stuff, as you and dhazelton were describing it to me, was just too complex. I couldn't understand or follow the carpentry lingo.

Let me quickly explain what is going on. My carpenter, after he learned of the leak, chickened out. He decided that he was not going to install the new deck door because he did not want to be held responsible, if there was a leak. The roofer has agreed to install the door for me. The advantage to this is that he can do his own flashing and the warranty on the roof and deck work will be maintained. He's a bit busy at the moment but he should be coming soon to install the door. When he comes I will try to get him to remove the wood blocks new my deck door threshold. I will also try to recommend the other points you mentioned.

It's funny how we always have certain issues that become life or death matters. Right now, when the deck door is opened completely (it swings inwardly), I have a gap of 1 1/8" between the door and washer and dryer. However, I plan on installing a board of red oak plywood between the kitchen sink cabinet and wash/dryer. The washer/dryer and kitchen sink cabinet are right now smack against each other. The plywood will have stainless steel on the side facing the sink (it will serve as water barrier so that the washer/dryer do not get wet and possibly rust).

My concern is if I get a 3/4" or half inch plywood will I be able to open the deck door fully? Alternatively, can the roofer install the door an inch further out from it's present location? These are the questions I will ask him when he finally gets around to starting the door installation.

As if all this is not enough to keep me busy, before I ordered my custom door, my carpenter gave me the following as the measurement for the door:

Framing space rough: 34"x71 3/4" 
Door: 30"x70"

But when I got to the store, they suggested that I get a door with the following measurement:
32"x70"

They said this would be better for me (something about the door filling in the space).

I'm now praying that this door will work, given my space.

Below are some photos.









> I should know something; I ve been in the trade since 1978 and licensed as an unrestricted construction supervisor since 1990.
> 
> Your post 3/2/15 12:01 1st pic, your roof, black architectural shingles white drip edge. Starter course is flush to white drip edge, should be set 1/2 to 3/4" lower than edge of drip edge. If done drip edge stays dry instead of wet and iced up.
> 
> ...





> I should know something; I ve been in the trade since 1978 and licensed as an unrestricted construction supervisor since 1990.
> 
> Your post 3/2/15 12:01 1st pic, your roof, black architectural shingles white drip edge. Starter course is flush to white drip edge, should be set 1/2 to 3/4" lower than edge of drip edge. If done drip edge stays dry instead of wet and iced up.
> 
> ...


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## Ghidrah (Jan 20, 2015)

Hey Boston_guy

Long time no read.
Are you saying the door swings in on its own accord when unsecured? If so it could be the hinges, or it could be the door isn't installed flush to the wall and worst of all it could mean the wall the door is installed in is leaning in. They do make out swing residential doors but they're a rarity, in general all residential doors are in-swing.

I'd definitely ask him why the blocks are there.

I would do everything I could to give the area as much room to breathe as possible. Condensation will collect in dead air spaces on cooler metal in the heat of the summer, (fridge effect) at least with a space you can get your hand or a cloth in means you can dry the items off when they get wet.

As for being able to move the new install over an inch to make room it depends on whether the rough opening was oversized or not. In general an RO is 2" wider than the door not including the frame; in some cases the framer uses 2.5" wider but rarely. Much older doors often had ROs 3+" wider than the door and frame, in those days and cases they weren't concerned about insulation and draft prevention the int and ext trim was usually 5/4X6" trim. And often the doors were being made somewhere else and the framer had no idea what was actually going in the opening so they went big.

I'm guessing you don't have that kind of room in the RO. For the carpenter to move the door over he'd need to cut into the wall in the direction required to provide the space you want.

Altering the weather tight or structural integrity of a structure requires a building permit. If one is replacing the same footprint one can acquire a "Quick Permit", (term may be different in Beantown).

Are you sure the door is 70" high? Damn that's one short door, how far do you bend over to go through? How long the existing door been in place?

The door blank, (the part that swings open and close) if it is 30"wide nominal it's a 2'6" door, if it is 32" wide nominal, it's a 2'8" door and so on. Said 30" wide door in the frame becomes 31.5" to 31.75". The jambs add 1 1/2" to 1 3/4". The RO for this unit should be 1" wider than the frame leaving a 1/2" to either side for shimming. If the wall is wracked (leaning left or right you'll need more room. The door needs the room to be squared and plumbed in the opening.

I worked too many remodels in my time to assume anything, if it had been me and I couldn't ID the existing door, I would have pulled the top and one side of the int trim to verify the RO, the older the structure the weirder the framing can be.


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## boston_guy (Jul 7, 2012)

Ghidrah,

Thanks for writing back. There's nothing wrong with the way the present door swings. I just meant to say that it opens inward (into my kitchen). I mentioned this because some people have suggested that I get an outward swinging door, given my space limitations in the kitchen. But it's too late now. This was a custom ordered door and it's already in my hallway.

By asking whether the door could be moved a bit, I meant whether it could be moved outward (not sideways) just a bit to allow me to have a bit of wiggle room when the door is opened completely. The reason for this is that I want to place a barrier between the kitchen sink and the washer/dryer.

One option is to get 1/2" red oak plywood as opposed to 3/4". Or maybe there's something else that's even thinner that I can use. The challenge, however, is that it cannot be something flimsy that will warp. It has to be something that can stand up firmly. This is why I thought plywood, with stainless steel on one side (the side facing the kitchen sink) would be a good solution. But there's the possibility that when the new door is installed it will bump up against the washer/dryer. As you can see, I'm certainly open to any suggestions out there.


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## Ghidrah (Jan 20, 2015)

It's taken me some time to go back and forth over all your pics; you have many issues to deal with that will continue to crank the price up far and above your initial project of replacing the door within the same footprint.

Pic#11, bottom left shows a 3 to 4" long corner with missing Scotia molding, the same side ext has the deck frame in contact with the existing door frame, Pic#17.

On the hinge side of the door there's even more confusion, from the ext it appears you have maybe 3' more likely 2'6" between window and door yet on the later inside pics you have the ov/und combo unit and then an abutting countertop, with another 10"+ to the right but no shot of the window? Is the sink counter occluding the window to the right of the outlet?

Say all issues can be dealt with and the project can be done if you comply with all the alterations required to push the door out 1 1/2 to 2 1/2". Scratch all the labor of removing, resizing and replacing the siding, all the new framing, tearing part of the deck up and reframing it to provide the room you require. Reframing the RO to provide the new opening then trimming it all out int/ext.

Is all the cost ($$$) including the invasion of your home for how long worth the gain of 1 1/2 to 2 1/2"?

Lastly is your roofer qualified to frame? Licensed and insured for framing? Most roofers aren't most framers are insured for all aspects of construction, it's one of the most expensive coverage's just under high rise steel workers.

For better or worse my take is "let it go", excluding the existing water issues and considering all the new issues for the proposed project, you just have too many things crammed into not enough space.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Look up appurtenances.



> . . . .
> Reminds me of a funny story that happened to me a few years ago. I Have a first floor condo, and the bathtub in the second floor unit above us started leaking. Every time they would drain the tub, water would pour down through our bathroom ceiling and down the walls. The condo association came out and agreed to have the repairs done, BUT…. according to the regs, they were responsible for the walls (drywall) and everything inside them (plumbing, wiring, etc..), but nothing that is attached to the walls. They agreed to fix the plumbing and our damaged drywall, however, paint and baseboards are considered attached to the wall, so I was responsible for re-painting and installing new baseboards!! They actually wound up doing the baseboards anyway, since there was only a couple feet that needed replacing, but I had to do the painting myself. Go figure.
> 
> Cheers,
> ...


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Years ago, I had to work on a Street of Dreams home that suffered water damage on a very expensive front room ceiling, right under a deck.

The roof would leak every few years. The deck people ripped up the deck and redid it. So did the roof people. It was a huge insurance claim each time.

I had to fix the wall that got taken out by the leak. I had everything torn down and just tar paper up when it rained. Curious and went to the house and watched the drain pattern. I noted it wasn't flowing quite right and installed a ninety-nine cent piece of flashing. Afterward, the storm was recorded as the worst rain storm in well over a decade.

Not a drop got through. Everyone has missed the problem a one dollar piece of flashing cured.

the worst rain storm in years hit.


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