# #garage shop problems



## TimCoxRox (Oct 26, 2012)

So it's currently 5 degrees(fahrenheit) in my "shop" right now as I sit here and type this. I'm waiting for my propane blower to warm things up to at least 40 degrees before I get moving. Something I didn't consider until just about right now, what are the long term effects of these cold temps in my shop? As I start replacing my benchtop model tools with nicer stand alone tools how kind will 5 degrees be over the years? Can I expect once complainer wheels to unseat or once flat cast iron surfaces to warp? Will it lessen the life of batteries for cordless tools? Permanent fixes are being brainstormed but until then….
#garage shop problems


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

I think those temps can effect battery life and will certainly harm finishing products.


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## bondogaposis (Dec 18, 2011)

I think the lubricants in the bearings of your tools is going to be a little stiff at 5°. You probably will get some accelerated wear.


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## DanKrager (Apr 13, 2012)

The biggest problem with sub-freezing temps is working with glue. Not only does the glue need to be kept from freezing (once kills it), but the glued pieces have to be at least 60 degrees for 24 hours before and after gluing. This tends to make for unstable panels unless the grain is exceedingly straight and quartersawn. 
The next biggest problem is picking up the tools that are now ice cubes. It hurts. I use wool vinyl dot gloves (which can pick up a pin) until it comes to power tools. By then you should have heat.
Long term effect on tools is rust. Someday the weather will suddenly turn warm and water condenses on all your metal surfaces. Your heater can cause this too. 
Another effect to consider is the bearing grease in sealed bearings. I hate to start my diesel and run it without first warming it up a bit. I have a variable speed lathe, so it gets turned on at slow speed for a few minutes before I crank it up. But that's hard to do with a table saw. Power saws will cut OK cold, but you pay a small premium until the bearings get lubed by warming. 
In short cold is hard on everything. If there is any way you can maintain a more constant 40 degrees, that will help a LOT. Perhaps you could gather a few things under a tarp with a 100 watt bulb in the middle (not touching anything). For sure wax the daylights out of all the surfaces that rust. Metal warping is not a problem in these temp ranges. 
Infrared or radiant heat is much more effective in these environments than an air heater. Radiant heat warms the surfaces of things and so heat does not get carried away as fast as warm air does. Solves the condensation problem too. Trade out your heaters.
DanK


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## Dal300 (Aug 4, 2011)

Something no one has mentioned….

For every gallon of propane you burn you'll make 5 quarts of water using a torpedo heater. Catalytic heaters are a bit different, but still add moisture to the air.

The more moisture you add to the air, the more rust you will acquire, the more warpage of wood, the more you'll find tools out of true.

I would find a good set of cataylitic heaters and a dehumidifier or set up a true heating system.

One place I worked as a mechanic had problems with tools and parts rusting so I talked the boss into letting me build a waste oil heater. I brought in air from the outside, heated it with the burner and warmed the 1200 sq. ft. space in each bay to 70°F with less than a quart of used oil per hour.
Moisture went down, rust stopped and it was pleasant to work in from 05:00 until 17:00 every day. (The shop opened at 07:00, Someone had to go in early to fire up the burners.


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## teejk (Jan 19, 2011)

dunno…has 5F in the shop right now??? unless it is a tiny shop, I would save the propane and spend the $$$$ on proper insulation (otherwise may as well take the tank out into the yard and shoot a hole in it…it will last longer).

kero salamander will provide a lot of heat quickly and cheaper…if you have 5F I wouldn't worry about excess moisture since it's obviously going to want to leave the building with the heat).

newer batteries will rebound I think (maybe even the older ones since I read once to store the spares in the refrigerator).


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## cutworm (Oct 2, 2010)

I'm feeling like a wuss. My shop was 58 yesterday and I turned on the heater. Getting soft in my old age.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

OK Tim, I was born and raised in Muncie and when I left from Indianapolis for the Navy in 1972, it was -35F (yep Minus!). Now THAT is why I am NOW living in South Central Texas. BRrr…! I do NOT miss those cold, wet, salty feet from the slush belt!

I just checked and my shop is at +50F and outside it is +40F. I do have to say that the recent cold snap has killed the batteries in my Digital calipers, but at least I do not have to deal with frozen glue!


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## AandCstyle (Mar 21, 2012)

Tim, my concern is the condensation that will form on your tools. The metal is cold and propane heat puts out a lot of moisture. Even if the heater were vented outside, there is some moisture in the air that will condense on your tools causing rust.


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## Dennisgrosen (Nov 14, 2009)

get the garage insulated yesterday

this thing cooling down and being heated up everyday doesn´t do anything good to your tools
building and yourself

have you ever noticed one wearing glasses coming in from the cold 
and the glasses suddently gets white foged and the owner can´t see a thing 
its all about water settling on the surface of the glasses 
you littleraly do that to all your tools every day

keeping the heat abowe 14-16 degrees celcius will prevent that besides 
it will prevent the building from slowly falling apart /desintegrate becourse of too much
moisture in the construction that will gives fungus the best conditions

Dennis


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## juniorjock (Feb 3, 2008)

If the shop was kept at a constant warm temp, would you still have trouble with moisture?


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

JJ,
Yes, one could still have some issues with moisture, but the extent/seriousness/level of moisture would be nothing like the condensation problems associated with such large daily swings in temperature. It is that temperature difference that truly causes the problems. Basically very cold tools/metal become magnets for moisture when brought into a warmer environment. Remember, warm air holds more moisture than cold air. So that cold tool gives off cold and condenses the moisture right out of the air around it.


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## Dennisgrosen (Nov 14, 2009)

well no and yes Juniorjock ….. then it all depends on how the general moisture is in the air
at a given time of the year and thats where the dehumifire can be a good thing to have 
but often a litle oily/waxed surface is enoff done with a rag at the end of the day to clean the tool
from greasy fingerprints and dust

Dennis


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## rossboyle52 (Dec 31, 2012)

I have a small pellet stove in one corner of my shop. (basement garage) the shop is well insulated so I'm able to keep it at 65 degrees all the time. The stove is thermostat controlled. I use about a ton or so of wood pellets a year to heat the shop. I buy the pellets at H/D for $210.00 a ton. All in all pretty cheap heat.
It's a relatively dry heat so I don't have any problems with rusty tools in the winter. 
I use a small window A/C in the summer to keep the humidity in the shop down. Still can have some issues with surface rust on tools in the summer. 
So I have to agree with Dennis. Get the shop insulated "yesterday" Then drywall and paint it.


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## TimCoxRox (Oct 26, 2012)

OK, someone mentioned moisture and then everyone did! For prospective I have a 3 year old new construction home. Presently and for the next foreseeable 15 years my shop is in the third bay of my attached 3 car garage. I have a load bearing wall that separates the third "bay" from the rest with a roughly 7 foot wide, to ceiling opening for access from the inside and of course a separate garage door. I have already insulated all of my exterior walls with R13 and then sheated the walls with 7/16 OSB for cost savings. The interior walls are insulated to whatever code is with 5/8 drywall. SO FAR I have noticed no moisture issues. I think I may have over estimated how warm I heat my little shop before I turn off the propane. It was probably more around 35ish when I came in for the night. I tend to wear my snowboard pants and a sweater when it's that cold (Another expensive hobby)  These temperatures are also beginning to not be as common in Indiana up until about 2 weeks ago it has hovered around 45 degrees dipping to 25 a few times.

But like I said I haven't seen any moisture accumulate on any surfaces, not to say the moisture isn't in the garage. I have thought about building a few shelves In the basement to keep my finishing products, glues etc during winter months and I definitely will now! My house furnace is all electric I kind of regret not getting natural gas ran to the house now. But it looks like the concensus is definitely find a permanent heating option. Roger that!

Horizontal Mike, I know Muncie has its own weather system it's always 10 degrees colder there! Now ill have to search the LJ forums for others heating solutions!


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## Milo (Apr 24, 2009)

All you water based items, glue, finish, etc., are kaput if they freeze.


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## gfadvm (Jan 13, 2011)

I heat my shop with an old furnace designed as a central heating unit. It just sits in the corner of the shop (no duct work). It was a natural gas furnace that I changed the jets out to burn propane. It's on a thermostat that I leave at 40 degrees at night and turn it up when I'm in the shop. It was free from a heat and air guy who lives close to me. He said they haul these to the landfill by the truckload when people upgrade.Mine is suprisingly economical to run. It uses about 250 gal of propane per winter. (depending on the weather) My shop is pretty well insulated which helps considerably.


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## OnlyJustME (Nov 22, 2011)

Get some insulation in the ceiling above your shop and is the garage door insulated and sealed properly around the perimeter? since you don't use that bay as a garage it would be better if you eliminated the roll up garage door and framed a wall in with insulation and some entry grade double doors. would give you more wall space too.


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## kizerpea (Dec 2, 2011)

If u can find a old fridge that don,t work .you can store glue an batteries in there with a lite bulb..that will keep them warm….


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## Arminius (Dec 27, 2007)

Running a dehumidifier will make a massive difference to any moisture problem - in that temperature range, the actual volume of moisture is not that great. If you have a decent airseal, you can keep the moisture level below the condensation point well into the negatives. My last shop was well-insulated but stand-alone, I was able to heat 20' x 30' with a plug-in space heater (liquid type). It would be cold for the first 30 mins or so, but with so little thermal mass in the air it would respond fairly quickly. I left the heater plugged in set to about 4 deg C, dehumidifier on, never really had any issues - just emptying the reservoir about once a week.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

I used a kerosene heater for my shop until this year. I now have a wood stove, I've had several shops over the years, and never heated them continuously. I've yet to see a major problem. My advice would be to try it.


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## CampD (Nov 8, 2008)

Yours is warm, we had -10 this morn.
I used to run a propane salamander heater to bring it up quick but have sense installed a woodstove.
With that said I am running the salamander now till the wood stove gets up to temp and I sit here and type.

I have never had any problems with tools with the cold other than glue freezing which I now keep in the house till needed.


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## juniorjock (Feb 3, 2008)

This is a really good thread with lots of different ways of dealing with a moisture problem. Like Mike said, if the temp swings aren't too drastic, the problem shouldn't be too bad. My shop is a metal building and so far, the only condensation trouble I've had has been on the ceiling after I had to take down a stripe of insulation. It wasn't much, but it was enough to make me start paying attention. Not long after I joined LJ, there was a thread similar to this one. The thing that caught my attention in that thread was that someone mentioned that you may be having condensation problems in places that you don't normally see - like inside of machines - saws, jointers, planers, etc.

Dennis, you've got some good points too. I've always heard that dust attracts moisture. I keep my stuff as dust free as I can and use cloth to cover everything. I'm using some old "baby blankets" now and they seem to do good. Don't use plastic.

Like Milo said, if your supplies freeze, it's likely that they'll go bad. . . . . ALSO, we don't want our beer to freeze either. I like mine about 33 degrees.


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## toolie (Mar 16, 2011)

this reply concerns tools only. batteries do not, IMHE, like cold weather, especially lithium ion batteries. all of my stationary power tools are in an unheated, uninsulated 12×20 shop and have incurred no rust or ill effects from either the cold or from a tank top propane heater whose heat is circulated by a 20" box fan 2' above it:

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200485294_200485294?cm_mmc=Google-pla-_-Heaters-_-Propane-_-21936&ci_sku=21936&ci_gpa=pla&ci_kw={keyword}&gclid=CIruitftzLQCFQ-e4AodogYAmQ

the most important thing to do to eliminate/reduce rust is to cover the CI surfaces when not in use. i've used, blankets, comforters, sheets, masonite, plywood, even those pricey HTC tool covers (that i got for free. (what a waste of money those things are at retail prices!!!). ANYTHING will do and, at least in my shop here 30 minutes north of NYC, this means i only wax my tools once each spring.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

In a garage, it's hard to seal around the doors. You will always have air leaks. Condensation is a problem when warm moist air hits a cold surface. Propane emits water vapor into the air, so I would go with a different heat source; either electric or a wood burning stove.


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## SnowyRiver (Nov 14, 2008)

I agree with what has been said. I would be concerned about condensation, and stiff lubricants in the machines. We are no strangers to cold here so I have a Hot Dawg gas furnace in my shop that is turned on the entire winter. I leave it at about 50 deg when not in there, and turn it up to about 60 when I am working. I have weather stripping on the garage door. For me its the perfect temp. This way I can leave the finishes, glue, etc., all in there year round. I dont have any problems with condensation.


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## juniorjock (Feb 3, 2008)

Tim, don't take my word on this, but I wouldn't think that the cold would cause much damage to your saws, etc. Unless maybe if you're trying to use your machines in a 5 degree room. Don't think that they're built for something like that. But, I've never tried it, so…. who knows. Like everyone else has pointed out, most batteries don't stand a chance in the cold. When I shoot (camera) outside in the cold, I keep an extra battery pack in a pocket of the inside layer I'm wearing. That helps a lot. Just trade the two out now and then. Would be kinda hard to put a drill battery in your pocket though.

I've noticed that all of my digital measuring units go dead fast in the winter. I've made a couple of small cases to transport them to and from the shop. I'd be buying batteries just about every day if I didn't.


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## dee2 (Jan 2, 2012)

We're in Cleveland OH…..hubby installed a 220 elec heater (thermostatically controlled) on the wall, super efficient and never had a problem. I never turn it down below 55 degrees. Never have a flame to worry about dust either. With the garage fully insulated as yours, this should serve the purpose of keeping it at a somewhat constant temp. Then, when you go out to work, you can always turn it up.


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## Grandpa (Jan 28, 2011)

The U.S. bureau of weights and measures keep all their standards in a controlled climate. 68 deg I believe. Don't remember the humidity. There must be a reason for that besides comfort.


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## jdon88 (Feb 20, 2011)

For the past 2 years i have been using kerosene heaters in my unheated uninsulated garage. Temps get down to 10F and I heat up to about 60 maybe once a week. i haven't had any issues with rust on tools. I store paints, glues, etc in the house.


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