# Using other's designs for projects to sell



## hasbeen (Jan 18, 2011)

Greetings from the socialist capital of America - California.
Why do you think they call it the 'left coast'?

I have seen very little discussion of copying projects or of selling them. I have seen a number of posts crediting someone else for the design and thanking them. I am assuming that most Lumberjocks don't particularly mind their design being copied/built for family/friends, but what about selling the items? Would like to know the general feeling on this. Is credit for the design enough? Perhaps a small fee? My main concern is cutting boards, of which there are literly *hundreds *of different designs on the site. I think it would be hard to come up with a new design that doesn't copy (to some extent) someone else's patern (However, I am reminded of the worker in the patent office in the early 1900's who quit - saying that there wasn't anything left to invent). Please share your thoughts.

Lee
Moreno Valley's local has-been.
Servant of the Living God.


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## derosa (Aug 21, 2010)

Unless you are swiping a truly unique design I wouldn't worry about it unless you are exactly copying a board right down to dimension and wood type. For the much more exotic designs, I'd at least not try to compete with them in their markets and let your conscience guide you.


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## hjt (Oct 22, 2009)

Lee, I don't think I have anything to worry about - no one in thieir right mind would want to copy my mistakes, I mean projects!

To answer your question, I would think that the lumberjocks post here to do just that - show off their projects. If someone sees a project they'd like to make and perhaps sell, so be it. It's a free country, except for the left coast and parts of the north east… And after today's ruling on health care… perhaps all parts in between.

I know that some sites I go to show projects and sell the plans. I suppose those jocks that feel they have a patent on their design could sell plans.


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## Doss (Mar 14, 2012)

You must have missed this one from not too long ago. There's plenty of responses in it.

http://lumberjocks.com/topics/36638


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## dkg (Dec 14, 2009)

If the piece is not patented who cares? "There is nothing new under the sun" which means that the artisan who thinks he has an original was inspired by some one else or at the very least the natural by the wonders of the world.


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## Doss (Mar 14, 2012)

Just because an idea was inspired by something or someone else makes it no less original. Think about that.

I'm willing to bet that the person who said "There is nothing new under the sun" probably did so in response to someone saying they just copied someone else.


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## PurpLev (May 30, 2008)

I have to DISAGREE with some of the previous posters - I post my projects here to share with fellow woodworkers. I DO NOT post my projects here for people to rip off the design and go duplicate them and sell them for profit unless I get some benefit out of it - after all some of the designs had to be worked on.


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## Doss (Mar 14, 2012)

I agree with *PurpLev* to some degree.

For one, design is probably one of the hardest processes and many people discount its difficulty simply b/c they aren't very good designers or they "borrow" heavily from others. There is a reason why there are schools dedicated to design.

Second, someone may copy you on here, some people will have a tough time with some of the more difficult projects or simply matching the craftsmanship of some of the originals.

The problem is, as soon as you post something up on a site such as this, you are pretty much resigning to the fact that people will copy or modify your design and produce it for themselves since there is little in the way of protection. While I think that is fine and good, I don't think those people should commercialize your idea (in its exact form or significantly close to it) without your consent and/or compensation.

If you look at how big of an issue this is in the furniture industry, you'd understand why copying others sucks. This is particularly rampant in modern (mid-century) design where just about every design has been copied to exact likenesses.


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## PurpLev (May 30, 2008)

indeed Doss - I have no problem with someone copying something that I've made for their home/family/friends - In fact that is flattering. BUT if you are building a business plan around ripping off other's designs as your own - that's just wrong (unless the agreed upon scenario in which the original artist/designer/whatnot gets compensated for his design per sale, or by buying the design all together, or some other forms of compensation of course).


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## Tennessee (Jul 8, 2011)

I'm pretty sure that unless you've officially copyrighted a pattern, by sending in the detailed plans, pictures and any other requirements to your respective government, paid the fees, and have been awarded a copyright on anything you build, it's free for the taking. You can say in your post "copyright, XXX, but I don't think it would hold up in a court of law. 
Trademarked designs are usually in the written or display realm, such as the MacDonald's Golden Arches, and product names, and patents are for inventions or defined improvements of items.
I think you would be hard pressed to even get say, a table of some sort copyrighted. I suppose you could, but it would take forever, be expensive, and you would still have to try and protect it if someone from another country copied it.
I've actually been waiting to see my tonal chamber with inlaid pickguard copied on my guitars, I didn't bother copyrighting that design. Ed Roman Guitars announced that they were working on a "Tsunami", but he died before it ever materialized, and I think the project got dropped. But unless I want to jump through all the hoops, anyone can make one of my guitars.


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## PurpLev (May 30, 2008)

"can" and "should" are very different things.


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## Tennessee (Jul 8, 2011)

I'm not arguing any of the ethics. I agree, in your heart you know it's wrong, but some people will just proceed anyway. How many times can someone sell the "Lotus" bandsaw box, or any other bandsaw box design? But they still sell. And how many times have we seen cutting boards duplicated? Or the shell jewelry box, on and on. A lot of people can execute a design from just a picture. Doesn't make it right but it is what it is. I would bet we have lurkers who just download pics of posted projects, whole portfolios of them, and they make and sell them. And I am guilty of walking a fair, and telling my wife, "I can build that for you." And I did…maybe not sold it, but made one for her when I really should have bought the one on the table as a gift for her. Most of us have done that sooner or later.


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## Dal300 (Aug 4, 2011)

Let me get this straight.
If I'm looking for an idea to buid a chair that I will be selling, and I look at 200 chair designs on different internet sites, then I modify them for my own application, is that plageurism? 
I defy anyone who says they design completely inovative furniture without taking the elements of design from someone before them. Design is a function of the brain which means that any input that the designer has seen or interacted with is going to affect the new design.

The design of furniture, tools, cooking, building, plumbing, heating, cutting, butchering, mechanics, etc. hasn't changed in thousands of years. It's all got to do with progressions. 1st century designs gave way to 2nd century designs because the tools got better to make better designs with which led to better tools to make better designs, which…. 
What has changed is the execution of the design and the tools the designer uses to execute the design with. 
As tools get better, design changes, as design changes, tools need to become more advanced. As tools and design become more advanced, the need for better tools and design are needed.
The common denominator here is that you can't have one without the other and every design hinges on those that went before it.

Doss and Purplev, do your designs acknowledge the fact that your table needs 4 legs? Or the tool you design to make the particular molding you want has the same radius and curve of a tool or tools built before you were born?

Sorry, I will get off my soap box now.

I worked with a bunch of engineers and designers at one time and everyone of them gave me grief when I pointed out that their designs and 'innovations' had been done before.


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## Doss (Mar 14, 2012)

*Tennessee*, I think the last part of what you said agrees with *PurpLev* and myself, "copying for your own use."

The part I have trouble with is using my design to profit without any agreement of the designer. While design patents and copyrights are great, they still don't stop most people due to the costs of bringing these cases to court.

Yes, I understand those are shades of grey when it comes to right and wrong and copying, but that is a fair compromise in my opinion.


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## Tennessee (Jul 8, 2011)

Dallas, I think they are referring to the outright copying of a design that they post as a project, and it goes to be sold. More exact copies than progressive forms. Like the office chair I am sitting on now, 50 years ago it might have been a wooden one with four legs, and if I was lucky, a thin pad for my behind. Then we got into swivel chairs, then roll around legs, (four of them), then the government decided that four roll-arounds was dangerous so they mandated five, then padded arms, and on and on. But if I take an existing design, copy it dead-on, and make and sell a lot of them, that's just not ethical. Probably legal, but not ethical.


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## PurpLev (May 30, 2008)

*Dallas* - no it isnt. being inspired by other's design is one thing, and if you modify your design based on 200 chairs - that's all fair and square - since it is obvious you are WORKING on YOUR design.

But if I saw YOUR 1 Chair, and copied it to the details - is a whole different ball game.

not saying it's illegal, not that nobody is going it - obviously a lot do… just saying it's probably not ethical unless discussed with the original designer and agreed upon replication.

just bringing this up - since this was raised as a discussion, if we all do not approach and acknowledge that this is unethical, than the boundaries of ethics will soon be washed away.


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## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

If you do not want people to copy or "steal" your ideas do not put them on the Internet.
Everything on the Internet is for grab.
We already had this discussion several times in the last few years. 
Especially I remember a discussion with popy-cat after which he blocked me like he blocked many other people.


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## Dal300 (Aug 4, 2011)

But….. where is the line drawn? Point it out to me please.

Don't get me wrong, I'm just playing the Devil's advocate here. I totally agree that ripping off someones complete design is theft of the lowest sort.

However, someone being so arrogant as to design a table or a chair or.. and say it is completely inovative is crap, unless they figure out a way for it to not have 3 or 4 legs or a flat surface on top or a place to put your behind. Someone before them came up with that idea and it's been copied ever since.

That leaves us with the arguement that the designer of the second part didn't actually design all aspects of this table or chair, they just adapted what was there before them, which leads to the correct arguement that if they used something from nother design, they are plageurizing a previous design.

How is that different than someone making a different round over on a face piece or angling the seat at 6.8 degrees instead of 6.5 degrees because their tools were more or less inaccurate? Even then, there can be no exact copy of an original design, the same way no two witnesses ever see exactly the same thing


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## PurpLev (May 30, 2008)

*Bert*- the discussion here is not whether you want your deisgned copied or not - it was whether it was OK to copy someone elses work for profit, or should there be compensation involved… while the subject is of the same content, the angle of view on it is different.

*Dallas* - all I'm saying is if you copy someone elses work - make sure you don't copy his signature on it too


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## Doss (Mar 14, 2012)

*Dallas*, it seems you understand what we're getting at now so I won't really bother to clarify much. But, if you look at the *5th post of this thread posted by me*, you'll get a little clarification on my position.

The patent office has to do deal with similar, but different designs all the time. So, in order not to dive down that hole, we'll just say different enough of a design that it is not mistaken by an expert as being the same.


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## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

Sure morally it should be a compensation but when you post your work you should not expect any, 
When I lent money or a tool I hope to see them back but at the same time I never expect to see them back.
By birth all human are sinner and most are dishonest.
End of my theology lesson.


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## Bobmedic (Sep 24, 2010)

Henry Ford wasn't the first person to make a car. He was the first person who came up with a system of mass producing them. I seldom use plans for projects because I don't like to make copies. I do however borrow design elements. I start by having a general shape in my head of the project I want to build. Then I decide on joinery. Many times joinery will dictate design. Most things I have built are design on the fly. Sometimes they end up being a masterpiece and other times not so much, but that is part of the learning process. Without copying, improvements could never be made.


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## mtenterprises (Jan 10, 2011)

I would be more concerned, morally, if I were to buy, purchase, someone elses plans and make 200 pieces to sell than by just looking at a picture on here and copying it. It's one thing to make exact copies of someone elses work and selling them but yet another making something within a "style" of a photograph of which you have no design plans for so therefor it is not an exact copy, it is then my concept of your style which is something completely different. 
I have in the past purchased plans that were marked "For Personal Use Only" and I had purchased them with the intent to sell the product. These plans were not marketed as "For Personal Use Only" so I was very disappointed. They have sat in my file cabinet for over 2 1/2 decades and I figure by now any copyrights or patents have run out. But alas they no longer interest me.
Robert W. Lang, in his book "Shop drawings for Craftsman Furniture" stated "The intent of this book is to give the average woodworker or devotee of Craftsman furniture the aility to produce, for his own pleasure, pieces of furniture that represent the style and spirit of the orignals. It is not intended to be an aid to anyone attempting to fool the collectors market by passing off new work as antiques. If your intent is to commit such a fraud, please look elswhere for an accomplice. I urge everyone building furniture from these drawings to sign and date your work to avoid future confusion." Introduction page7. 
Back when Craftsman Furniture was being made pieces were very much the same but each shop had its own little spcefic style change, a different dimention, a special bracket, type of wood(s) used in different locations. Stickley Furniture, by whom, Gustav, Brandt, Albert, Charles, Leopold, John George? It's all Stickley furniture and all slightly different. 
Do I make my piont, one is a complete ripoff the other is a copy of?
MIKE


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## hasbeen (Jan 18, 2011)

Thanks to all for the thoughts on this issue.


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## krisrimes (Jun 17, 2011)

I think the only reason it is called the left coast is so those of us on the other side can say we are from the "right coast".


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## Dal300 (Aug 4, 2011)

Purplev and Doss,

I have understood from the beginning what you were talking about. this isn't for me, it's for many others who don't understand the nuances of design and manufacture.

If you have a stance on the issue you need to elucidate and defend that/those stances. Simply making a statement isn't enough to convince anyone.

As I stated above, I am playing the devils advocate and my arguments seem to (so far) be effective.

A good lawyer, (which I'm not), would have no problem tearing your arguments to pieces if I can bring you to the point of saying, "I don't need to explain anymore because….".


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## PurpLev (May 30, 2008)

*Dallas* - I know you know  and you've hit a pretty big issue on the head here - a big problem in todays society and it shows mostly in the US is that unless a lawyer is involved - morality is at a loss. people tend to not care about their fellow folks and about right/wrong unless the lawman tells them to - how absurd is that?

legally you can copy whatever you want and sell if for profit - thats a fact - UNLESS something was patented and/or copywritten in which case - not all is lost - cause all you have to do is change a small detail to make it not the same. that's the legal side.

but I'd like to think that doing the right thing is better than doing the legal thing at times… to each their own (and I am certainly not saying that you are different than me…)

Peace out.


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## bruc101 (Sep 13, 2008)

Terms Of Use

http://plans.testsitem3.info/terms.html


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## hjt (Oct 22, 2009)

I replied in this post at the beginning and all I have to say at this point is… when I first read this I thought… "this is going to be an active post and will generate lots of differing opinions" Hats of to Hasbeen for the post.

Further more, anyone wishing to use my 'projects as inspiration for themselves can do so on one condition.. and that is that they must then tell me how they corrected all my mistakes!!!

Honey, 85 degrees is the NEW 90 
LEVEL? what do you mean it was suppose to be level?
Are you telling me that EACH board were to have been cut 27 5/8?

My matto… "measure 2 -3 times, cut once…. buy more lumber!"


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## ssnvet (Jan 10, 2012)

intilectual property in the information age is a difficult subject…..

I'll suggest one aspect for consideration….

Norm Abram goes to the XYZ museum, and measures up a piece that he really likes… then he goes back to his shop and, while keeping the exterior of the design the same, modifies the joinery to facilitate the use of modern power tools.

Then he and WGBH make a lot of money showing off the design on TNYWS, and go on to sell plans and videos for years to come.

But even if they tried to "pay" for the design…. who would they pay? The estate of some long dead cabinet maker?

Now the brass tack questions…

Did the designer ever file for copy write protection? Was the name used to describe the design ever trade marked? If the design had a truely unique and state of the art invetive element, was a patent ever filed for. Have the patents and copywirtes been renewed?

As Lev said…. Can and shoud (or what's legal and what's right) are to different things….

In the end, in terms of legality…. the offended party would have to learn of the offense, lawyer up and file suite in the appropriate juristiction.

Just hope it's not the Peoples Republic of China :^O

I'd be curious if WGBH goes after anyone who sells a knock off of their knock off…


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## knothead (Aug 4, 2007)

I have looked at some of the project pages of posters to this thread and see amazing talent that was ALL surely inspired by some piece that they have seen or been influenced by, so how can most any of us call our creations "Original" designs? I just recently "Designed" and am building a bedroom set. But other than dimensions, or a curve here and there and a joint here and there or a chamfer or bead it's design is an amalgam of several pieces that I have seen and liked combined into the same piece that I have built. But none of them are "original" to me.

What is in your design for a table or a cutting board or whatever that is wholly unique to you and therefor not available for others to use as inspiration or close approximation without compensating you personally. Whether sold or not?

There are only so many ways to build a cutting board or a table or a box with a face frame on it and present it to others. those "Original" designs were created thousands of years ago in most cases. One can and should credit an inspiration or a technique to others if used in your work.

The ONLY thing unique to any individual is his or her craftsmanship in the rendering or execution of the project. I am not trying to start a debate but I would love to see any truely original creations you would care to offer. Flat work is flat work, and that is what I am talking about here.

If you sell it, put your name on it and maybe someday when people see your work it will be called an "insert name here" original, like today when we see a "Stickley" Original or a "Maloof" Original, meaning his hands actually touched that piece when it was built which is why they are so valuable and sought after today. No one will ever be able to buy a new "Maloof" original ever again, so we who loved his work can only try to approximate his pieces with all the appreciation and craftsmanship we can muster in the effort. As long as there is no claim that it is his piece…...

When you get into bends, sculpting and carving I think that could be different.

Chris


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

This is why, with few exceptions, I design my own stuff. I bought plans for a gun safe, and even then I'll have to modify them to suit me. A box is a box is a box…until you see one of Andy's or Dan's, for example. They are distinctive enough in appearance that if you see one made by someone else, you know where they got the idea…if you frequent LJs. If not, your creative juices flow in a similar stream.

It's called the "left coast" as a play on the fact that it is leftmost in the US, if you use the North Pole as up. Ever seen globes from Australia? That, and the liberal (left-wing) lunacy in California politics.


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## nate22 (Jul 12, 2010)

Hasbeen I agree some of them that if you copy a pattern right down to the exact measurement I wouldn't worry about it. I make all of my patterns and I have given one or so out once maybe twice. But i usually don't and if I do I make sure I get paid for it. If you find a design you like change one or two things on it and you will be fine.


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## hasbeen (Jan 18, 2011)

Well, this supposed simple subject has generated many more comments and additional thoughts than I was expecting. 
Thanks to all


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## woodism (Apr 2, 2010)

Had an odd conversation a couple years back. A kid, recent graduate from a 4 year English furniture apprenticeship program was inquiring about work here. He showed me his portfolio and I was impressed to see faithful renditions of a number of classic designs. Queen Ann, Empire, Craftsman , etc. I asked if they also taught design at the school and he told me " No, they just focus on technique….. the faculty said that though a lot of people can be good technicians, only one in a hundred has the gift to design original work, and that person doesn't need to be told what to do".

That said,,, there's new stuff under the sun all the time, but it takes a lot of experience and study to recognize it, and even more to come up with it yourself. If you are inspired by a piece,, it's classier to say inspired by xxxx, or if it's a copy , to note what you know about the original. As you track through ideas that appeal to you and actually try to build them, you will come across some of the creative processes that led to the original decisions. It's a great way to learn and on an amateur level, nobody will mind. But if you are posturing as a professional, it's really poor form to borrow heavily from individual designers or to offer copies as your own original creations. You might learn a LOT more about copyright, trade dress and infringement than you ever cared to know.


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

Regarding woodworking. Rarely on here do you see something unique. Don't get me wrong. Many are beautiful and beautifully made. But decide to make, say, a piece of furniture and google it and click images. most of the time you'll see that someone has made something close to it. So, how many could claim ownership in the first place. Which is why a lot of patents are turned down. I've made many things that just came out of my head and I hadn't seen anything quite like them until I started looking around.

If you've made something on here, a nod to where you saw it is a nice consideration but for the person you're nodding to, if they think they are the first person to make that type of jig or that style bed, well, think again. You may have an inflated view of yourself?


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## HalDougherty (Jul 15, 2009)

The first major project I every attempted was to build a cradle for my first grandchild. It turned out so well, I contacted the designer of the plans who has a great web page of plans to see if I could build more than one cradle or did I need to buy a set of plans for each cradle. His reply was, to make as many as I wanted with no restrictions on giving them or selling them to others.

http://www.furnitureplans.com/shop/heirloom-baby-cradle-plans/

Since I carve gunstocks and use a duplicator, almost all my products are at least partial copies of another stock or part of a stock. Anyone who wants to duplicate the items I have posted is welcome to do so.

For the jigs and fixtures I use to speed up making tables and benches, I posted enough information so anyone can make them and speed up their production. The first slab I flattened with hand planes & hand sanders too almost an entire day to get it flat enough to use. The router sled I built lets me flatten a slab in 30 minutes or less. The first set of mortise & tenon legs I built took a couple of days to make. Using the templates I made to cut the mortise in the bench and a template & pattern bit I can do the same thing in an afternoon now. But to speed it up even more so I can sell benches at lower cost and still make a good profit, I modified a jig I found to cut round tenons on a router table and one of my projects shows how to make it. The last time I made legs, I cut 60 pieces of walnut 2 1/2" square into 20" lengths and turned a tenon on one end in about an hour. This project show how I quickly flatten a slab, add legs and cut the legs to length. My projects and blogs show enough that anyone can make a functional live edge bench or table in an hour or two. I also started selling wood products by making turkey calls. The design I came up with isn't unique, it's simple so it's been invented by several other people over the years. I posted the call and enough information for anyone to make one like it. The big advantage to my design is if a few simple jigs are built, a lot of this type call can be made in a short time with very little wood required.

If you don't want your designs copied, protect them with patents copyright and/or trademark, and be ready to sue anyone who infringes on them. Assuming you have a patentable product. If you don't protect your patent, copyright or trademark you lose it. The legal costs will by far outweigh any profit the average person might get. If I post anything in a public forum like this one, I hope someone will use the information to either make something for their own use, or to use as part of a product they can sell or give away. So, if you don't want anyone to copy your design, or use parts of it in a new design, don't post about it in a public forum. There is no expectation of privacy here. I've had several members here give me some great ideas. Tex-Penn for showing me how to use Lumberjocks in combination with a website, ebay, and etsy to sell his lumber and wood products. Trifern, for his technique to color maple. Rivergirl to show me how much you can do with limited tools and unlimited inspiration. And a lot of others. I check Lumberjocks everyday and look at every project, blog post, and forum topic that interests me. This website is a wonderful resource to learn just about anything related to woodworking you can imagine.


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## benchbuilder (Sep 10, 2011)

Dallas, I believe we worked for the same engineers, they went to collage and know what they are talking about, after all, we have only been doing this for 30 yrs.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

When it comes to woodworking, about the only part you can claim any copyright protection for is the decorative details. A couple years ago there was a lawsuit between furniture companies in my state, one claiming the other violated their copyrights. It took a couple appeals but eventually copyright was upheld but the judge gave some guidelines… the decorative elements are the only part copyrightable and they must be able to exist independently from the furniture itself. Apparently if the decoration is in any way functional, it is not protected by copyright (though you may file for a 14 year design patent).

-So as I understand it, if you have a checkerboard cutting board (or some variation thereof) you are SOL as you neither invented checkerboards nor cutting boards.

-With musical instruments, I don't think any company had much luck protecting body shapes but headstock shapes can be trademarked.

-In furniture it's only the decoration you can protect, no matter how unique your Shaker (or Chippendale) inspired table, it is still a Shaker/Chippendale inspired table.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

If it's not worth a LJ's time to protect in some way prior to posting, all of a sudden it has monetary value if somebody else produces it and makes a profit? Say I made a 'unique' bandsaw box and posted it here. It's not protected at all, in any way. Someone sees it and makes a mint by selling copies. Sorry, I'm out of luck. "Hey, you're making money?? I want some of that! Because, after all, I could have made, marketed, sold, etc. the product too!"

The cry 'I could have thought of that' [protected my design, produced it, marketed it, sold it] is a very popular and misleading one, for the fact is that they didn't, and a very significant and revealing fact it is too.
-Douglas Adams


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## JGM0658 (Aug 16, 2011)

A +1 vote for the not illegal but not cool either. In the end, if you make a living at this and you market yourself as a builder/designer and your customer sees an exact copy of what you just sold him/her, your reputation is in the mud.

Most people can make a square table with square legs. Designing a piece of furniture requires a lot of effort, first on the drawing then on the actual build. When I design something, most of the time I build it with pine before I use any expensive wood, you have no idea how many times I have said to myself, "looked good on paper, sucks in real life".

On that sense I might draw inspiration from a project on the internet, say I might use a feature or a part of a project, but I would never, ever copy a design right down to the last screw.


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