# Biscuits



## Dadzor (Nov 10, 2009)

Hey, all. I have two questions I am hoping you can answer for me.

Why are wood biscuits cut along the grain instead of across the grain? Can I get biscuits that are cut perpendicular to the grain?

Thanks,

Matt


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## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

I've never notice it to make difference. I think the lamello have no grain and might be what you need…


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

as jack shows they have no grain to speak of,there made of compressed beech wood so it doesn't matter.sort of like plywood i believe.


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## Dadzor (Nov 10, 2009)

Jack and pottz, thanks for the info on the lamello. I will check it out.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

I think that they normally cut them at a 45° angle to the grain. You can see that at about 50 seconds into this video. I looked my porter cable biscuits and the grain also appears to be at 45°

Just curious. Why do you want them across the grain? If you are worried about moisture fluctuations, that should not be an issue.


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## Dadzor (Nov 10, 2009)

Hey Lazyman,

My original question was, "Why are wood biscuits cut along the grain instead of across the grain?" Biscuits are very weak, and are best used for aligning and stabilizing boards for gluing, as you know.

I was just wondering whether they would be stronger if they were cut across the grain at 90 instead of 45. I wondered if I could get my hands on some to test my theory.

I am still looking. Thanks for the reply.

All the best.

Matt


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> I think that they normally cut them at a 45° angle to the grain. You can see that at about 50 seconds into this video. I looked my porter cable biscuits and the grain also appears to be at 45°
> 
> Just curious. Why do you want them across the grain? If you are worried about moisture fluctuations, that should not be an issue.
> 
> - Lazyman


cool video i see that they are cut across the grain at a 45 and not a ply type construction like i thought.that does seem the best way for maximum strength.i learn something new everyday here.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

I just clamped one in a vise and commenced to whacking on it with a mallet. It took several pretty sharp blows to crack it, and when it did, it split along the diagonal grain. Even if that somehow happens after glue up, both sides would still be embedded in both sides of the slot. I would think that any advantage of a 90° would be minimal.


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## therealSteveN (Oct 29, 2016)

> I was just wondering whether they would be stronger if they were cut across the grain at 90 instead of 45.
> 
> - Dadzor


Sounds like you aren't buying it's not a strength tool, rather an alignment one discussions? Compare it to the size of a dowel, or the Domino, it won't matter what the orientation of that cheesy little wisp of wood is, it will still be an alignment tool.


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## Dadzor (Nov 10, 2009)

> I would think that any advantage of a 90° would be minimal.
> 
> - Lazyman


Yeah, you're probably right.

Thanks for the input.


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## Dadzor (Nov 10, 2009)

Sounds like you aren t buying it s not a strength tool, rather an alignment one discussions?

- therealSteveN
[/QUOTE]

No, I get it. I was just wondering….

Thanks, Stephen.


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## Rick Dennington (Aug 27, 2009)

I just watched the video on how the biscuits are made…..! Very interesting…..I sure didn't know they were made that way…...Likw was said, you learn something everyday…..!! Thanks for posting.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> I just clamped one in a vise and commenced to whacking on it with a mallet. It took several pretty sharp blows to crack it, and when it did, it split along the diagonal grain. Even if that somehow happens after glue up, both sides would still be embedded in both sides of the slot. I would think that any advantage of a 90° would be minimal.
> 
> - Lazyman


im not sure how much force is applied when those are punched out but id say it was a tiny bit more if you hit it with a hammer-lol.


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## Toller (Jan 7, 2014)

> Sounds like you aren t buying it s not a strength tool, rather an alignment one discussions? Compare it to the size of a dowel, or the Domino, it won t matter what the orientation of that cheesy little wisp of wood is, it will still be an alignment tool.
> 
> - therealSteveN


I sold my biscuit cutter 10 years ago… but….
If you make a joint and ONLY glue a couple biscuits, it is pretty strong.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

Interesting article about biscuit joiner including the grain direction.


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## therealSteveN (Oct 29, 2016)

Maybe I didn't hold my tongue right, but back when I did have one them I never shared that experience about strength, but I was cheep and bought the PC one.


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## Dadzor (Nov 10, 2009)

> Interesting article about biscuit joiner including the grain direction.
> 
> - Lazyman


Yes, it is. Thanks for sharing.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

I've used biscuits to build light duty shelving and boxes for DATs, CDs, DVDs, and the oldest of those things (~25 years) is still in use today. I've also used them in plywood cabinets and they are more than strong enough for that. John Heisz uses them for shelf pins in his shop and even sat on one. He eventually broke it, on purpose, by jumping on it.


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## splintergroup (Jan 20, 2015)

I'd assume they are cut at 45 so the biscuit grain is never parallel to the grain of the wood being joined.

Biscuit/glue long boards side by side for a table top, the biscuit grain is at 45 degrees, Biscuit/glue the ends of two boards together (a shelf to the case side) grain is at 45 degrees.


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## Kazooman (Jan 20, 2013)

> Interesting article about biscuit joiner including the grain direction.
> 
> - Lazyman


Interesting article but….. Who thought it was a great idea to have red and black text on a garish green background? You really have to want to get the information to suffer through reading it.


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## Rick Dennington (Aug 27, 2009)

I used biscuits for years, but quit on them when I started having trouble alligning the boards evenly. Some of the problem ,I think, was me not pressing down on the boards and using cauls to keep the boards flush w/ one another. So…..I've just been edge gluing them w/ plenty of glue, clamps, and cauls….No more problems….NOTE: If one board was a tad higher than the other, I either had to sand them flush, or run through the planer, which was much easier..!


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

That's odd Rick. The problem you describe is the reason that I sometimes decide to use them. As long as I don't screw up and reference the wrong side on on one of the boards, one side at least is perfectly flush.


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## EarlS (Dec 21, 2011)

Nathan - I use biscuits for the same reason. Biscuits have helped many a piece that is bowed or twisted stay in line during a glue-up. If a piece is twisted, biscuit spacing is 6", otherwise, 12" does the trick.


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## John_ (Sep 23, 2013)

> Sounds like you aren t buying it s not a strength tool, rather an alignment one discussions? Compare it to the size of a dowel, or the Domino, it won t matter what the orientation of that cheesy little wisp of wood is, it will still be an alignment tool.
> 
> - therealSteveN


lol, Domino has what - about 10% more strength? I am sure that is going to make a BIG difference….


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## pintodeluxe (Sep 12, 2010)

What that strength test article said to me was how strong mortise and tenon joints are compared to anything else. Add a cross-peg and it will hold together even if the glue fails.

Biscuits aren't going to be strong in isolation. But luckily, they're never used in isolation. I'm always using 4 biscuits minimum (on a web frame for instance) to increase surface area on end-grain glue situations. You can't tell me they don't add functional strength in that situation compared to end grain glue only.

There are several places I routinely use biscuits in furniture building. It's a very helpful tool indeed.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> What that strength test article said to me was how strong mortise and tenon joints are compared to anything else. Add a cross-peg and it will hold together even if the glue fails.
> 
> Biscuits aren t going to be strong in isolation. But luckily, they re never used in isolation. I m always using 4 biscuits minimum (on a web frame for instance) to increase surface area on end-grain glue situations. You can t tell me they don t add functional strength in that situation compared to end grain glue only.
> 
> ...


i agree i just dont understand why so many feel their worthless.


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## John_ (Sep 23, 2013)

Especially since how many cabinet doors are just Cope and Stick?


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

> i agree i just dont understand why so many feel their worthless.
> - pottz


Because most people haven't built anything with them and probably have never built something and taken it apart to see how strong it is, they are just parroting some youtube video or talking out their fart hole. Or maybe they did build something, poorly, and it fell apart so they blame the tool. I've made things out of nothing but biscuit joinery. I've made things with biscuits, pocket screws, and butt joints then broke them so I have a pretty good handle on it. We all go through that phase where we think building a table with M&T makes it fine furniture, it doesn't, not even remotely. Not everything I make is intended to last forever and not everything I make is worth the labor of classical joinery. Don't get me wrong, I'll put my joinery against anyone here or anywhere, but I'm pragmatic and do what makes sense with the end use and cost in mind. Sometimes mortise and tenon joints are the way to go, and sometimes screws or even staples and glue are the way to go. Arguments about what is strongest are for armchair woodworkers. Most of that upholstered furniture you sit on, that your kids or grandkids bounce on, is put together with staples and glue. The original cabinets in my house were built in place from 3/8 ply, glue and staples and they lasted almost 50 years before I bought the house and replaced them. They are still being used in my shop and shed. Heirloom furniture should have traditional joinery but there are other more expedient modern methods that will do fine in some circumstances. I know a guy who was teaching a woodworking class and needed stools, the night before he made a bunch with nothing but glue and brads, and only expected them to last one class-10 years later and he's still using them, lol.


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## EarlS (Dec 21, 2011)

To the question of why people don't use biscuits, pocket hole, or dowel joinery: A lot of us are hobbyists that enjoy the challenge of learning how to make dovetails, M&T, and other joinery.

We just moved into a new house. I looked at the cabinet construction. The doors are rail and stile but look like they were made with what looks like a shortcut on the router set up. The cabinets are all plywood with pocket joinery holding them together. The drawer slides are an off brand and are not even close to what a Blum slide provides. Similarly, the finish isn't quite as nice as I would do. Looking at the doors and trim in the house, I see the same thing. My point? Quality costs money and most people won't pay for it. This gets back to the question of "what's good enough?" When you do woodworking for a hobby your answer is different that when you do it for a living.


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## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

> What that strength test article said to me was how strong mortise and tenon joints are compared to anything else. Add a cross-peg and it will hold together even if the glue fails.
> 
> Biscuits aren t going to be strong in isolation. But luckily, they re never used in isolation. I m always using 4 biscuits minimum (on a web frame for instance) to increase surface area on end-grain glue situations. You can t tell me they don t add functional strength in that situation compared to end grain glue only.
> 
> ...


 I won't be getting rid of mine…..


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> What that strength test article said to me was how strong mortise and tenon joints are compared to anything else. Add a cross-peg and it will hold together even if the glue fails.
> 
> Biscuits aren t going to be strong in isolation. But luckily, they re never used in isolation. I m always using 4 biscuits minimum (on a web frame for instance) to increase surface area on end-grain glue situations. You can t tell me they don t add functional strength in that situation compared to end grain glue only.
> 
> ...


nor will i.


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## Dadzor (Nov 10, 2009)

> What that strength test article said to me was how strong mortise and tenon joints are compared to anything else. Add a cross-peg and it will hold together even if the glue fails.
> 
> Biscuits aren t going to be strong in isolation. But luckily, they re never used in isolation. I m always using 4 biscuits minimum (on a web frame for instance) to increase surface area on end-grain glue situations. You can t tell me they don t add functional strength in that situation compared to end grain glue only.
> 
> ...


I will keep mine as well.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

Thats a good chart with the strength test and a good point about sometimes not needing more strength. Like when I make built in cabinets or small shelving that will hold some chachkis etc. Will an extra 1000 pounds of strength really hold my 4 pounds of decorations better?


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