# Is there money to be made in furniture or cabinetmaking?



## Beginningwoodworker (May 5, 2008)

I am wondering is there still a demand for custom furniture or cabinets. I know you cant complete with furniture stores or cabinet factories prices or labor cost; It really dont seem its worth the trouble to start a woodworking business.


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## LeeBarker (Aug 6, 2010)

With your outlook as I am hearing it, it would be folly for you to start a woodworking business.

Others will take the leap, and some will succeed and some will fail. I would venture to say that something all the succeeders will have in common is an optimistic outlook, a powerful desire to learn every day and either built in business savvy or an interest and ability to get what they need from other sources.

Kindly,

Lee


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## lew (Feb 13, 2008)

You know, CJ, that is a dilemma I am facing right now. My brother-in-law asked me to make a couple of collection deposit cabinets for the churches where he is employed. He had some specifications, sizes and ideas. The materials were not all that expensive- 2 sheets of 3/4" plywood- one oak, one birch and 25+ bdft of 4/4 red oak, hinges and locks. Simple finish- poly over stain. Typical of most things I make- no real plans, just sort of wing it. I got lucky and didn't make any major mistakes- I mean design modifications. Well I am ready to put on the poly and right now I have 60 hours in these things. Now I will be the first to admit- I am not a professional and don't have the latest and greatest tools or a large space to work; so I know that I took a lot longer than most of the guys here who are professionals. So, how can I charge a reasonable hourly rate?

I think unless you can find a niche- where people want a specific item you make- or you live in a really affluent area, it is difficult to compete with the big factories.

Just my 2¢

Lew


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## Beginningwoodworker (May 5, 2008)

Thanks Lew and Lee, I've agree with both comments. I rather work for someone else but jobs are hard to come by these days.


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## SnowyRiver (Nov 14, 2008)

I think there is money to be made in woodworking, but you not only have to be a good woodworker, but you have to be good at marketing it too. I tend to enjoy the woodworking part, but I am not very good at the marketing part simply because I dont care to do sales work. I used to be a sales person in the company I work for and I hated every minute of it…I just didnt like trying to convince people to buy something.


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## Beginningwoodworker (May 5, 2008)

Wanye, I have a few small projects but its hard to convince people to buy something.


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## degoose (Mar 20, 2009)

I was told by a very good friend of mine who owns a sawmill…
" I have seen some *very talented* people come through the mill, who can't make a living at wood work… and I have seen some *JUST* competent woodworkers who make a killing… only because they have the right contacts to market their product…." 
Find a product that can't be copied cheaply by the factories…and find someone to sell it for you…. that is the secret…


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## SteveMI (May 19, 2009)

I've been going to a larger lumber mill to pick up my wood and have talked with a number of woodworkers who are hanging on. All of them had 3 to 5 employees at one time and were making the killing. Now they are single person shop or less than 3 people. All of them are not doing just what their speciality was three year ago, but taking any reasonable job that comes along to pay the rent. Actually they are at the mill to select wood in order to have the minimum waste, in years past they would have sent an intern and buy 15% extra.

Two common themes keep getting repeated at the mill. People, even those not under water on the mortgage, are not considering their homes investments that they can keep upgrading without worry of getting the money back out at sale. Second, in my area, is that people are still anxious on where they are going to live in order to have or keep the "good" job and they not having furniture made due to not knowing how it will go with the next house, condo or apartment.

(There were people there picking up loads for larger construction, but not the type of woodworking I think you are considering.)

So, one argument might be that this is not be the right time to jump into a new business with both feet and all of your resources tied up. The opposite argument is that the consumer confidence is recovering and those not in economic issue are going to open their pocket book again with less places to call on then there was several years ago. Even in the most positive mode, I would not expect the business to get back to what it was four years ago.

A last observation. I have seen some incredible wood furniture not sell at estate sales and end up in resale shops. A friend gets all of his hard wood by buying all wood eight seating dining sets with two cabinets for under $100, which he then disassembles, re-saws and makes smaller tables from. Point is that way too many people don't want the "fine" wood furniture in the style that their parents had anymore.

Steve.


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## Puzzleman (May 4, 2010)

Agreeing with the above. I have learned over the years that the most important job in my woodworking company is sales. Without sales and marketing, there is no money coming through the front door. And if no money comes through the front door, there is even less to take out the back door.

If you don't like sales and marketing, work for someone else.


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## devann (Jan 11, 2011)

Ditto the niche. You have to stand out, offer something or a service unique to your shop. It's hard out there these days. A few years back I was having a good time making custom furniture. I had a pretty good little client base. As the economy deteriorated I often ended up working for the same clients but instead of wearing my furniture making apron I was back to wearing my carpenter nailbags. You have to be flexible and go with the flow. 
Here's one idea for you. I am still ask to build cabinets but being a one man shop by the time I spring for the materials the profit margin is pretty slim. So I generally refer the customer to a dedicated cabinet shop because they buy material in bulk and can offer a better price. Not always but a lot of the time the same cabinet shop will hire me to install the cabinets. The profit margin is higher for me in these situations, after all we all need to make a buck. Good Luck with your endeavors what ever they are.


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## SawDustJack (Feb 11, 2011)

until people around here ( I'm in Prattville ) know who you are , it would be tough here or anywhere for that matter ..

You have to spend as much time marketing as in the shop , salesman I aint ..


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

It's a tough trade from a business point of view. Overhead can kill you - 
just like in most businesses.

Ultimately it's about finding areas of the market you can make a profit
in and only working at jobs you make money at. You have to learn to
see when customers are looking to get something for nothing and 
turn away those jobs.

If you want to plan your career, get the skills that can set you apart,
like marquetry.

If you can stomach the study and want to be upwardly mobile, go into 
computer programming or some financial field. If making a lot of money
and finishing rich is important to you, woodworking is not a very good
field to get into. The hours are long, the work is dirty, the employees 
require lots of supervision, overhead can wipe out your profits and the
money is not steady.

That said, you can prosper in cabinetry or furnituremaking but it requires
market savvy. It is best to specialize in chairs or guitars or marquetry
or whatever. Specialization allows you to focus your marketing, perfect
your specialty, set-up for optimal efficiency and become a go-to guy instead
of just another "good carpenter", which is how most clientele view a 
skilled custom cabinetmaker, a condition which will make you more or
less interchangeable in clients' eyes with all the other "good carpenters" 
in your market and creates a situation where you will lose jobs to cheaper
guys often.

As in all business, the secret to a steady stream of profits is to distinguish
your product and service from the competition. Easier said than done, of
course.


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## SnowyRiver (Nov 14, 2008)

Another issue I often think about, is the housing market. Everything revolves around home sales. Government statistics keep monitoring new home starts, but I wonder if the days of thousands of new home starts are over. There is a much smaller work force behind us now so I often wonder if there is really going to be people around capable of buying existing homes, let alone all these new homes they keep trying to build. If we dont have lots of new home starts and lots of people buying homes, there is much less need for furniture, cabinets, etc. I also think to make it in woodworking as a primary business, you have to diversify and not only build furniture, but kitchen cabinets, remodeling work, and maybe even a deck or two. It sure wouldnt hurt to build some smaller items too like turning bowls, building boxes, and birdhouses/craft items to keep the cash flow coming.


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

Lew:

You mentioned something I don't hear very often but is a long-standing peeve of mine…charging an hourly rate for what is likely inefficient use of time. Whether the inefficiency results from lack of experience, tools, or continuity - working 2 hours here, 2 hours there isn't as efficient as working 4 hours straight - I think people need to be careful with how they price out a job. Charging hourly is likely fair for you…but I know it's not fair for the client.

I used to run a landscaping business. Knowing how much more efficient we were, I would price out things according to the job…and when people tried to weasel out of the price because we "weren't here that long," I had to remind them that it was priced by the job.

Whereas hourly rate can be a base part of the pricing structure, I would communicate to prospective clients that the price is set according to the PIECE…and an agreement should be reached beforehand.


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## MikeGager (Jun 15, 2009)

i really think its a bad idea to start a custom furniture business

however i do believe building furniture as a "hobby" to try to sell is ok

heres the difference, if you are building furniture as a hobby in your spare time you can make a couple pieces and try to sell them, if they sell cool make more, if not well at least you have some nice furniture for your house or to give as gifts.

now if you try to start your own business youll likely have a lot of business start up fees, youll need to purchase the right machinery to speed things up. you will need some pieces built to show people your work. youll have to spend money on insurance, advertising, taxes, etc etc etc plus youll likely have to make it a full time gig to really get anywhere. now if after spending all that money getting things going you still dont sell anything you are hosed


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## jack1 (May 17, 2007)

Either is tough in this economy but, this economy is not going to last forever. Keep honing your skills and look for stuff people are willing to pay for. A job here, a crafts fair there, sit by the side of the road with adirondack furniture or picnic tables etc., etc. You can do it but it takes a leap of faith, optimism, good clean work, efficiency and a certain amount of luck to name a few variables. Keep on keeping on. You'll make it.

Jack


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## mattg (May 6, 2008)

Every time someone asks me how much, and I tell them, the next thing out of their mouth is "man that is too much!!" And I'm usually 1/2 less than Eldred Wheeler. Oh well, to me, my stuff is priceless!! The fact that I make it in my garage? To each his own. Let them shop at Ikea.


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## Beginningwoodworker (May 5, 2008)

Thanks guys for the comments keep em comming. I major in building construction in college maybe that was a bad idea. The job market is tough right I have not work since I finish techincal college.


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## JuniorJoiner (Dec 24, 2008)

Since I finished school in fine furniture, I have been building, and have tons of work. I only just had some buisness cards made up, so not advertising, just word of mouth. All of my customers have wanted more than one item. As far as I know, of all my classmates, I am one of two building furniture. Most have gone back to their day jobs, or are doing other things. 
All that said, I am not getting rich, I am getting by, if not for my pension I would have to supplement with part time work at something else. But, to be fair, I live in a expensive part of the country.
People come to me because they know I concentrate on quality and design, and I give a lot of feedback to make sure the client is getting exactly what they want. Client education is important, they should know why what I make is better than a furniture store, and that Ikea will never be an antique. I try to underpromise and overdeliver, giving the client something more than they expected, and something they show off.
It takes years to build a reputation as a craftsman, and every piece that leaves your shop is a rung in that ladder. to compromise is to sabotage yourself. 
For myself, this type of work is the creative outlet that keeps me semi-sane. The selling is secondary to the designing and crafting, and I often find myself sleepless trying to copy down a design idea, or perfecting some complex joinery. 
No one can tell you what will be right for you, what I can say is that for true high end furniture, there is always demand, it may take some time to sell, but people do want it.


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## ND2ELK (Jan 25, 2008)

I had a custom cabinet business back in the 70's. I elected to keep my day job and build cabinets in the evenings and on the weekends. I did this for 9 years and made a lot of money. It got to where I was putting in more hours in my shop than my 40 hour a week day job. I even hired a guy part time to help me on the weekends. I averaged $25 dollars an hour and had more work than I could handle. I got burnt out and decided to quit building cabinets for others. I could not give up a good state retirerment plan I had.

When I retired in 2007 I decided to set up a shop and try to build cabinets again on the side again. The materials are now three times higher and I found that most people are not even willing to pay $25 dollars an hour today. I decided to build things for my family members, me, grandkids, close friends and church. Is it the economy, where I live or a different generation. Probably a little of everything. I still get some jobs but not a lot. It is a different world than it was thirty years ago. Is it doable to make a living doing woodworking, yes. But it takes time to build up a business. You might want to get any job and build cabinets and furniture on the side till you build up a reputation.


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## Beginningwoodworker (May 5, 2008)

Thats what I am thinking.


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## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

first - all education is "good stuff", whether you follow that route or not, it is never a waste of time.

woodworking is in your veins. It is your natural talent (from what I have seen). There are many ways to fulfill this role. 
Some people have the stamina, the finances, etc to jump in with two feet and muddle through the "living life as an artist" and go with the highs and lows.
Other people choose to put the practical needs first (pay the bills no matter what) and put their passions, interests, as an "after hours" activity.
Some people get caught up in the paying the bills and let their dreams slide. (I hope this isn't your path).

Can you start up your business AND do a 9-5 job or a part-time job as well until everyone knows your name and wants your work? 
Can you work for someone else?


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## StumpyNubs (Sep 25, 2010)

Starting a business is easy. Making a living at it is what seperates the hobbiests from the business men. The finest of woodworkers will absolutely fail if they aren't business savy. Read some books about starting a small business, talk to other business owners and learn all you can. Then see if you can translate that into woodworking.

My advice- STAY OUT OF DEBT! Businesses that fail usually have one thing in common- they have too much debt. Filling a shop with financed equipment or buying stuff on your credit card will lead to payments you won't be able to make in the slow times. If you can't pay cash for a new tool, you can't afford it right now. That's the golden rule of successful business.


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## cornflake (Jan 13, 2011)

two words: production woodworking.

when me and my father started our woodworking business in the early 90's we built one thing and one thing only aquarium stands. That was our only product. You have to find a niche and build products to that niche the key is to have flexible designs and designs that can be built quickly we the fewest parts and the least amount of planing cutting and assemble time. Also you must always find new ways to make production faster and more effeciant. Dont keep a large inventory have a few samples and as orders are placed make the items keep in mind this is production work so have a minum order. This kind of work can me a bit mind numging so as soon as you can hire someone to help you i built 1000's of aquarium stands before i ever built anything else. Good luck.


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## huff (May 28, 2009)

CJ, This is a question that's been asked many times here on LJ's and it always brings up some good points about owning a woodworking business. (pros and cons). I've read a lot of information about owning your own woodworking business over the years and a lot of the same information is covered each and every time….. Develope a busines plan, find a niche, know your market, learn to produce fast and cheap, keep your overhead low, market, set goals and be flexible. These are all great pieces of information that have to fall in place to make the puzzle of owning your own woodworking business come together and work for you. Surprisingly, I found there is a lot more to it then that. I've been kicking around with the idea of doing a series of blogs about what I've seen, learned, experienced and done to keep my woodworking business going for the past 25 years, but come at it from a different angle. You're definitly not the only one asking that question. Gather all the information you can and then it will be up to you to determine your success. Good luck and keep us posted.


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## SteveMI (May 19, 2009)

Niche - This is a real winner if you can hit it. Biggest thing is to listen to customers. I made lamp and side tables in 2009 that I was proud of. They got praised and didn't sell very well, but I got asked a number of times about if I could paint them and make them with shabby chic edges. I kept oak for legs, but changed the aprons and drawers to poplar, then plywood for top and shelves with hardwood edges. Sprayed HVLP with milk paint. My margin was even higher at a reduced retail price. Couldn't make enough of them for 8 months and was working to orders. Problem with niche is that you can saturate a local market which is what happened to me. Tables of this size didn't have a market that could justify shipping. With a niche you have to keep flexible and keep working on the next thing.

Overhead - Your time is the most critical commodity you have and repeat business come to you for the personal value you add. The finish, construction integrity and features are what you bring to the party. Consider outsourcing when you can, but make sure the quality is there.
-Find a good lumber mill and get your material planed and cut one edge so you can spend your time on what the customer will value. 
-Cabinet carcasses are important, but time/space consuming to cut and drill. There is a lot of software that will create a cutlist of the pieces that you can send to a shop with CNC. You specify the material and get back parts ready to go together. Most time the material is same cost and the labor to cut is a bargain when you see how much other work you can do instead of that. Focus your time on the doors and frames.
-Keep track of everything you do and at the end of the day think about how you can get more done. Many times it comes to setup time where you can make four in the time of two if you don't stop to change over the tools.

Steve.


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## Sawkerf (Dec 31, 2009)

Trying to directly compete with the production shops is a sure way to go broke. They can make it because of economy of scale. IOW, they're set up to make dozens (or hundreds) of copies of a piece and we're making one or two at a time. Their CNC machines can cut a sheet of plywood into cabinet box pieces in a matter of minutes compared to our hour or so using saws.

What works for my business is the "custom" aspect. A production cabinet company will fill a 33" space with a 30" module and a 3" filler panel. I give my customer a 33" cabinet and don't waste valuable space. I can almost always find a way to give the customer some shelving under a vanity sink. The production guys just leave a large empty space.

Last year, I made five custom pieces to go with a kitchen filled with production cabs. The production guys didn't sell what the customer needed, so I designed, built, and installed my stuff. The customer told me that their Xmas guests had no idea that some of their cabs came from a different source.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

Get yourself a subscription to CWB magazine. I got it free for years - you
just fill out a form that says you're a pro, and if you're considering a career
you deserve to think of yourself as a pro and owe it to yourself to read
the trade journals. If you can get to an industry trade show these magazines
have booths and will give you a subscription if you have a pulse.

There's another one that I enjoyed for several years - it was complementary
to pros. I don't remember the name off the top of my head but it was
a large tabloid-size thing on newsprint. They always had a profile of a shop
owner with less than 5 employees (often solo or partner shops) and also
a profile on a shop with 10-20. It is a very helpful read for grasping the 
breadth of opportunity in the field for people seeking different kinds of 
woodworking careers. They profile furniture makers who teach and write
books to make it work and also guys with huge shops who take on multi-million
dollar commercial jobs with lots of contracts, insurance and lawyers involved.

Also, Woodweb is a wealth of information from the real front lines - the 
contributors pull few punches but they tell it like it is: hard work and 
a challenging business but also one where you can succeed if you have
your eyes open and keep learning.

The basic craftsmanship stuff you can learn in a few years - and in truth
you can sort of coast with the actual woodworking lots of times once you
get skilled at it. The area where you have to have the eagle eye is the
business part of it and knowing where you are going.

Custom shops are closing all over the place. There's a glut of used machinery
on the market and the hobby end of the industry is exploding in size.

As prices to import junk cabinets from offshore rise and the cost of moving
stuff across state lines goes up (fuel prices) there will emerge actual real
economic incentives for customers to deal with local custom shops. You'll
still have to stay away from the customers who want something for nothing,
but you'll also find that people who've had their kids destroy one set of 
Big-Box style cabinets in under 5 years are ready to trade up on their second
or third set of cabinets.


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## LeeBarker (Aug 6, 2010)

paste:

There's another one that I enjoyed for several years - it was complementary
to pros. I don't remember the name off the top of my head but it was
a large tabloid-size thing on newsprint. They always had a profile of a shop
owner with less than 5 employees (often solo or partner shops) and also
a profile on a shop with 10-20. It is a very helpful read for grasping the
breadth of opportunity in the field for people seeking different kinds of
woodworking careers. They profile furniture makers who teach and write
books to make it work and also guys with huge shops who take on multi-million
dollar commercial jobs with lots of contracts, insurance and lawyers involved.

end paste.

Woodshop News

Good publication for woodworkers of all stripes; focus on business but valuable real world tangible info as well.
Recommended. I never got it free, but never minded paying the subscription cost.

This is a magazine that doesn't yell from the cover, "PERFECT MITERS IN A WEEKEND!" or "BUILD THIS TEN SPECIES DOVETAILED INLAID INTARSIA STEAMBENT KLEENEX BOX IN ONE EVENING!"

Kindly,

Lee


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## dbhost (Jul 20, 2009)

Right now, in this economy that is a tough call to make, but… There still seems to be plenty of market for unique pieces that will set a home apart from the cookie cutter MDF masses. Those pieces aren't necessarily always cabinets, or chairs, or tables or whatnot, they can be vases, bowls, knick knack shelves, jewelry boxes and the like… The trick is to find your niche, no matter if you are working for someone else, or for yourself, you need to find out what people are willing to cough up bucks for, and fill that niche…


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## Beginningwoodworker (May 5, 2008)

Thanks guys for the advice, I may have to put my carpenter apron on agian.


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