# Nicholson bench top flatness vs other designs



## Lumpy63 (Jan 16, 2021)

I'm looking at building a knockdown Nicholson bench after Chris Schwarz's design. One question is, how well does the benchtop retain 'flatness'. I'm new to hand tools and haven't built a sturdy workbench before. I've considered the usual designs (Moravian, Nicholson, Roubo). Frankly the mortising in the Moravian and Roubo designs is intimidating to a newcomer. The knockdown Nicholson is appealing but I wonder how flat the top will stay (a layer of 2×12s face up with a partial layer below it) compared to a laminated top like the Moravian and Roubo designs use. I know I could modify a Nicholson to use a laminated top, I'd just like to keep the cost down if I can. Do you have any advice? Is a laminated top enough more stable to make it worth the extra cost? Thanks.

BTW I'm looking at a knockdown design because my shop is in my basement (not walkout) and someday I'd like to change that.


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

Are you taking about 2×12 construction lumber? The reason I ask construction lumber is awful for furniture or fine woodworking.
But great for building houses or sheds
Good Luck


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## Mosquito (Feb 15, 2012)

Let the wood acclimate to your shop a while and find out how they'll move. I definitely suggest sticking with laminating two boards together face to face for the top boards of you intend to use hold fasts. The cost of the cheaper, easier construction is having to flatten more often. I wouldn't worry about flattening it by hand. With construction lumber it's fairly easy with a hand plane, if you're in to that. If not, it might be of more concern, as flattening is trickier, but presumably you'd have to figure it our out anyway for the initial flattening right? I wouldn't expect it to be that out of flat very quickly, and should get out of flat slower at it ages too


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

I looked at that one and a ton of other designs before building mine. I ended up going the route of Richard Maguire's English Workbench. Similar style, just a traditional english bench. I made it a few years ago and haven't flattened it since i originally made it. Richard says you may need to flatten it every few years depending on environment. But to be honest, a perfectly flat workbench isn't a necessity. So I just haven't flattened it yet.


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

I have used recycled construction wood and a recycled pick-nic bench for my Paul Sellers workbench.
The top is "only" 150 X 30 X 4.5 cm + a tool well.
Until now it has been big enough for me (and my workspace is limited anyway).
So it wasn't very expensive.
By the way, The Paul Sellers workbench can be knocked down (I made it in my back yard then moved it [5 main pieces] to my workspace in the attic).
My big expense was the quick release vise.


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

My Moravian was my first "real" woodworking project, made a few mistakes but I learned a lot. For the bench you are describing you may want to check out Mortise and Tenon on you tube. He uses some flat top (long boards) horizontally for the top and has a philosophy of abuse it and replace it.


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

about flatness.
Its importance depends how you work and on what project.

If you work like Paul Sellers, flatness isn't critical. ( except when making things like picture frames apparently.
He once re-flattened his bench for such a project).
look at the video here:
https://paulsellers.com/2022/01/newest-piece-of-the-year/ 
Planing in the vise.


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

> Frankly the mortising [...] is intimidating to a newcomer.
> - Lumpy63


For everybody, there is a first time. Just make the jump. Use a scrap of wood for a first test.

A workbench is not a fine piece of furniture and it doesn't need to be perfect. Mine is not perfect but is nevertheless rock solid and perfectly functional.

The best video (IMO) about chopping mortises:





use mortise guides to get plumb mortises:




If you chop from either side in a thick leg, you will have a better chance that the two half mortises will meet nicely in the center (don't ask - it didn't affect the final result though).

for wide mortises, I use this method:








two mortises (with a 10 mm chisel) and then removing the waste in between.


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## Lumpy63 (Jan 16, 2021)

Thank you for your replies! I think there is a lot of good advice here. To AJ2, yes, I was looking at 'kiln dried' construction 2×12s. Overall, it sounds like I may have been over-emphasizing flatness a bit. I appreciate the comments about the English workbench and the Paul Sellers design. Sylvain, thank you for the video links. It looks like I need to continue educating myself before making a final decision about a bench design. I have tried making a 1"x1" mortise in a 2×4 remnant, but my current bench flexes so much (along with questionable sharpening technique on the chisel) that it didn't go as well as I'd hoped. Thanks again for all of the good advice.


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## Lumpy63 (Jan 16, 2021)

The Moravian bench design is very appealing, but the mortising looks challenging which held me back from selecting that design. Also I wasn't sure if the relatively small blind pegs that hold the top to the base would be sturdy enough long term (just thinking about their size vs the big tenons used on a Roubo)? It's just quite a contrast between the two designs. I saw that one LJ (Combo Prof) made a knock down Roubo using blind tenons to hold the top to the base. Lots of options to consider but the knockdown Nicholson seemed like a good, relatively economical choice for me, perhaps with a split top to allow some clamping to the top. I also wondered about making rectangular holes near the top of the aprons to allow clamping to the top, but since I haven't seen that done, maybe it's a bad idea and I just haven't thought of why yet.


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

After the P.S. workbench, I did a Moravian for the son.
Those skew mortises look challenging, but, finally were not much more difficult than straight ones.

If you choose the vertical vise on the Moravian workbench, there is no effort in those pegs when one tighten the vise.
And the backboard of the vise has wide tenons in the top and in the bottom stretcher.
On the version with an angled leg-vise, Will Meyers increased the size of the peg.
On a Roubo, tightening a piece against the top will tend to push the top away. That is a reason to have the double tenon on top of the leg. The effort is then contained in the leg and the vise-leg.

There should not be much effort in the pegs when planing, especially if your plane is sharp ;-)



> I also wondered about making rectangular holes near the top of the aprons to allow clamping to the top, .
> - Lumpy63


Just use sash clamps long enough to bridge the width of the apron.


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## Lumpy63 (Jan 16, 2021)

Thanks again Sylvain. your last reply answers a lot of questions that I had.


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## Bearcontrare (Oct 6, 2020)

The all consuming obsession for "perfect flatness" always amazes me. Perhaps it can be achieved with a metal top, but wood has its own properties.
Ask yourself this: How flat could the workbench of Thomas Chippendale, Duncan Phyfe, Thomas Sheraton or the Dominy family hve been….
There will be some variances. We all have to live with it. The "Nicholson" design is a good sturdy workbench, which will serve you well. At 62, the best woodworking lesson I've learned is not to waste time over-thinking these things, just DO it. Your worst enemy is self doubt.


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## therealSteveN (Oct 29, 2016)

Plenty of ways to be flat. A bench like the one recently done in Woodworkers journal takes 4 layers of MDF, plenty of mass in that, and offers knock down construction via through bolts. Mass, all of the hand tool features you could ask for, and pretty straight forward construction. It can even be set with retractable wheels to make it mobile in place.

From Woodworkers Journal August 2022

On You Tube

I agree with Aj about construction lumber. Fine for building homes, but way too unstable for finer projects. Sure I know a lot of people still use it, but swapping for a better dried hardwood for the framework, will be something you'll never regret. 2×4's for roll around work carts and multi use assembly tables, sure knock yourself out, but for a BENCH, use stable wood.

Acclimating a dogs hind leg, is still a dogs hind leg. For flat, it isn't a good base to start with, and especially to finish on. I did construction, and home repair/renovation for over 40 years, and I can count on my fingers the number of times I saw 2×4 lumber that I thought, gee I could build a workbench from this. Evidently it really doesn't grow on trees.


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

A bench needs to be flat enough to feel if a small piece, like a drawer front, is not flat IMO. Am I going to get an engineered straight edge and feeler gauges out, no.


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

My bench top is very flat I keep it that way so I can handplane a board. I find it easy to hand plane a board flat if the surface under it is flat. I don't know anyone can plane a board over a hump or dip. I wonder if some of the comments are from wood grinders. And don't understand what a handtool bench is.
I would not use construction lumber to build a work bench unless the growth rings are very tight. I think the best bench top is hard maple because that's what I have.
I would like to suggest you spend a little bit more and use poplar. Its harder then fir with wide rings and cut beautifully with the grain and across.
Good Luck


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## brtech (May 26, 2010)

Don't listen to the nay sayers. Construction 2×12s, most especially SYP construction lumber works great for a workbench. SYP flattens as well as most hardwoods. SYP ranges from 690-870 on the Janka scale, poplar is 540. but Hard Maple is 1450.

I do think laminated tops are the bomb.


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

I would like to point out a character of pines and fir construction lumber. It actually has both soft and hard rings that we can see that are surrounded by soft layers. This is what makes cutting across the grain difficult and sometimes hand planing tricky. 
The big box stores in my area do not carry 2x construction lumber kiln dried. That's a problem because as its dried it will warp,bow, twist and cup. I do realize we can get around that but there's one more drawback. The pitch will flow until it's set. To set the pitch it needs to be kiln dried or lots of time 40 or 50 years.How much sap will flow nobody knows but the tree will think it's still alive and when its warm enough or hot enough it will ooze pitch.
I write this not just for the op but for anyone passing through looking for information.
Construction lumber is great for framing walls or sheds etc because of the attributes I mentioned above. 
Good Luck


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## therealSteveN (Oct 29, 2016)

For me it's that the average moisture % on SPF construction goods is usually way North of 20% up to 35% That isn't the picture of stable wood. If you are first guy when they pop the bands off a rick of 2×4, 6, 8, 10, 12 I don't care what size you pick, sorting through them you'll have wet hands. Not occasionally, every time. That is way to wet to call it stable, and sitting around on your garage floor for a week, month, year, doesn't do anything except allow it to go to that dogs hind leg form it so loves to become.


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

Laminated SYP for my Moravian top and it is solid. A lot cheaper than the 100 year old solid red oak slab I really wanted.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

I laminated my Anarchists Workbench (Chris Swartz) from #2 prime SYP. IMO, it will make a great material for a Nicholson style bench too. If you can find actual #1 prime (appearance grade), even better. If you get good boards, it gives you good results and is very easy to plane by machine or hand. The secret is careful selection of the boards. Here is my checklist when shopping for lumber:


When culling through stacks, take a friend with you or ask someone at the store to help you. At HD or Lowes, get 2 carts. One for keepers and one for rejects. You will save time and frustration if you move the bad ones off the stack to the 2nd cart as you work your way through a stack, even with moving them back when you are done. 
Start with 12" wide boards with minimal knots and no checks or other cracks. It takes higher quality wood to yield 12" boards. It also takes higher quality wood to for longer lengths so buy the longest lengths you can deal with or afford.
It is best to avoid boards with knots that come all the way to the edge but you can deal with a few tight knots under about 1.5" across. 
Look for boards that have relatively small growth rings with the pith right in the center of the board. You want boards where most of the growth rings, except right in the middle, are nearly vertical in the 2-by dimension. You will cut out the pith later. 
Site down the edges of the board and select ones that have no twist, crook or cup and have little or no bowing. 
Look for boards where the growth rings look about the same at both ends-basically, minimize grain running diagonally end to end. 
Though you will not need as many boards with a Nicholson style top, do not expect to get all of your boards at once or at the same source. It can take a few weeks to get all of your lumber. Ask them (pro-desk at HD and Lowes) when they expect a new shipment so you can get the first shot at a new stack.

Rip the 2×12s so that you cut out 2-3 inches out of the middle to remove the pith or the rings near the pith that are round and cut the edges off to remove the roundovers. This basically yields quarter sawn boards with nice looking vertical grain that will be more stable. A side benefit to this grain orientation is that the grain will not change direction along the length and will be super easy to hand plane in either lengthwise direction. Let the wood acclimate for a week or two at least to see if any of them go crazy after initial milling and then mill to final thickness and dimensions. Anything that goes wonky can be used for components other than the top.


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

> Rip the 2×12s so that you cut out 2-3 inches out of the middle to remove the pith or the rings near the pith that are round and cut the edges off to remove the roundovers.
> - Lazyman


All that ripping would be quite job if to be done by hand.
Wasting the center is un-economic.
There is no need to remove the roundovers before flattening and some may subsist on the slab's underside.



> I'm new to hand tools. I d just like to keep the cost down if I can.
> - Lumpy63


Just make your Nicholson with a layer of 2 X 12 and start to master your hand tools.
Save your money to buy wood for your projects.
Afterwards, if you want a laminated top you can always rip and re-use those 2 X 12. (Although you will need to buy more wood).

Stop overthinking it. Look at what Bandit571 can achieve on his rustic one-afternoon workbench.

Even if you don't make a Paul Sellers workbench, there are useful no-nonsense advices here:
https://paulsellers.com/paul-sellers-workbench-faqs/#Wood-Selection

About bench-top re flattening:
https://paulsellers.com/2014/08/flattening-one-of-my-benches/


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

"All that ripping by hand". I can remember two tool guy being asked "what's the most important tool in the shop?" Both answered the band saw, I was sure it was going to be the TS. Maybe get a band saw first.

I ripped out the pith, it worked for me.


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

Except the vacuum cleaner, the bandsaw is the only machinery one would need for some one off (or limited number) projects in real wood.

But then we don't speak about remodeling a kitchen with sheet goods where the partner has asked it to be done for the day before yesterday.

One will have noticed that the bench Paul Sellers re-flatten has plenty of knots in its top.
I also have several knots in mine (hand planed). It doesn't affect the functionality.


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

I got lucky, I thought about the knots and turned them to where they faced the bottom, the top is pristine.


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## MikeB_UK (Jul 27, 2015)

My bench is made of 2×4 construction spruce stuck together before it had dried - tends to warp out of shape with the seasons.
Coffee table I made after letting the wood settle for a couple of months has been flat with no issues.

So, for my 2 cents, go for it but give it a fair bit of time to dry first. Worse thing that can happen is that you will have to reflatten it every so often.


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## Thedustydutchman (May 23, 2021)

My bench is hybrid nicholson of sorts. The base is made out of very old white pine construction lumber and the top is laminated plywood. Its heavy as all get out and stable as well. I have a sacrificial white pine top over the plywood. Its been a few years and it stays nice and flat. The pine is nice and grippy and will dent before any hardwood I use in my projects (admittedly, I dont really use much hardwood, im a wood scavenger). It's sort of a knockdown, the top is held in place by large dowels and comes off easily enough that i could get it out of the basement if i really want too. Construction lumber will be fine as long as its dry.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

> Rip the 2×12s so that you cut out 2-3 inches out of the middle to remove the pith or the rings near the pith that are round and cut the edges off to remove the roundovers.
> - Lazyman
> 
> All that ripping would be quite job if to be done by hand.
> ...


I would not want to rip the 2×12s by hand either. Table saw or band saw will make quick work of it.

I disagree about it being wasteful. Cutting out the center (pith) is less wasteful than having to scrap the entire board later because it cupped or twisted on you. Also, it is usually cheaper than buying two 2×6s after you cut off the edge roundovers. It was next to impossible for me to find 2×6s or even 2×8 that did not have the pith running through them, not to mention that the quality of the wood from a 2×12 is usually better (tighter growth rings) than for smaller widths. If warping of dimensional lumber is the issue, this is the way to go in my experience. Getting 2 quarter or rifts sawn, tight ringed boards is worth a couple of inches of loss.

If you have to plane off enough to flatten the board that the roundovers are gone, you got badly warped boards that required you to remove at least 1/8" of thickness on each side ( would not want to do that by hand either). My checklist helps prevent that. When milling the lumber for my workbench, I doubt that I had to plane off more than a 16th off of any face. Even on a work bench top, I would not want to leave the roundover on the bottom edges. Every time I looked at the end, it would bug me.


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

> I d just like to keep the cost down if I can.
> - Lumpy63


Nathan, what you propose will certainly give excellent results but cost and machinery availability are decision factors. 
(Now what that means "if I can"?)
As for "Every time I looked at the end, it would bug me.", that is a personal choice.
Although, on a functional point of vue, it is important that the bottom is out of twist where it sits on the base.

Boards, if not too thick, will have some flexibility and don't need to be perfectly straight.
I have made the tops of two workbenches by first gluing the 3 straightest board I had, making a rigid starting foundation. I then glued additional boards one a a time. 
I even used seriously twisted boards by 
- cutting them in 3 or 4 pieces;
- clamping them on the already existing slab; 
- refining what would be a butt joint between two sections by sawing between the to ends;
- gluing all the sections;
- planing the new edge square to the slab;
repeat with the next twisted board in such a way that the section are staggered.
I keep a "good" board for the last glue-up.

It is a bit of work (all by hand) and gluing one board at a time needs extra time but I was using free recycled wood (and I am retired).

Top before flattening (recycled pick-nic bench) one can see the staggered boards.
Board were solely flattened across the width before gluing; not all of the exact same width (aligned on the other face).


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

I guess you could say that any of this is a personal choice. This is just how I would approach it for the most stable top. Your laminated top (and mine) is a different animal than the one on the classic Nicholson bench. I just glanced at the free plans that Chris Schwartz provides and it looks like the plans assume no prep to the 2×12's at all. The plans show the bench width is exactly the width of 2 raw 2×12s which means that the roundover will leave sort of a groove down the middle of the bench (which would bug me even more than on the bottom), unless you sacrifice about 3/16ths of thickness to plane it down enough to remove the top roundover. Leaving the roundovers will certain give you a nice bench but personally, I would at least cut off the roundovers where they meet in the the middle of the top to get a completely flat surface but you will lose a little over 1/4" of width to do so. My personal choice would be to make a thicker laminated top or to mill the 2×12s into rift or quarter sawn boards for a smooth, flat and stable panel.

To the OP, You might want to look at Paul Sellers videos for his spin on a Nicholson inspired bench. Slightly different but worth a look. He has other videos on YouTube other than the one linked to above. He does a good job demonstrating and explaining hand tools for making his bench designs that are good for hand tool novices and beginners.


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

(If I may quote myself) If the OP has a really tight budget:



> Just make your Nicholson with a layer of 2 X 12 and start to master your hand tools.
> Save your money to buy wood for your projects.
> Afterwards, if you want a laminated top you can always rip and re-use those 2 X 12. (Although you will need to buy more wood).
> 
> Stop overthinking it.


My only regret is having procrastinated too long to make my (P.S.) workbench.

Thanks to the usage of wedges, the Paul Sellers workbench will not rake if the leg wood shrinks, although, if need be, the wedges look like they could be retrofitted in some way on the Nicholson.


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## Lumpy63 (Jan 16, 2021)

A lot of wisdom has been shared and I appreciate it very much. After reading, and re-reading, the advice that's been given, I'm going to build the knockdown Nicholson with two layer top and hope for the best (realizing I can replace the top in the future if needed). I've bought a few 2×12x16s and have some other 2×8 material that I will use in the leg assemblies. It has been a real challenge finding 'good' wood where I am (Rockies). I rifled through the wood at four 'big box' stores (two seem to like the color blue and two like orange). In this case the blue-ish stores had better wood, but there wasn't a single 2×12 that was knot free and straight and without pith. I did the best I could, we'll see how it goes. Thanks again, all of your advice has been really valuable!


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

When you say "two layer top", are you planning to put 2-by boards on top of 2-by boards? If that is what you mean, that may not be necessary. If you want a thicker top, it may be better to rip your 2-bys into strips the thickness you want and turn them sideways to glue them into a thicker top. One of the advantages of the Nicholson design that makes it easy to build is that you can just use 2-by stock for the top and sides.


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

> When you say "two layer top", are you planning to put 2-by boards on top of 2-by boards? If that is what you mean, that may not be necessary. If you want a thicker top, it may be better to rip your 2-bys into strips the thickness you want and turn them sideways to glue them into a thicker top. One of the advantages of the Nicholson design that makes it easy to build is that you can just use 2-by stock for the top and sides.
> 
> - Lazyman


+1


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## memilanuk (Apr 15, 2008)

SMP said:


> I looked at that one and a ton of other designs before building mine. I ended up going the route of Richard Maguire's English Workbench.


I've been looking at Richard's videos on his bench for a while now. I'm curious... what lumber did you end up going with. It looks like the "2x" material he had was at least as thick as what I see as 8/4 at the hardwood dealer around here. Given that I can actually get wide and clear boards of 8/4 poplar, that's the path I'm considering. 




Lazyman said:


> When you say "two layer top", are you planning to put 2-by boards on top of 2-by boards? If that is what you mean, that may not be necessary.


If you look closely at the plans in the blog post you linked to, Schwarz's knock-down Nicholson bench has additional 1x10 boards sandwiched under the interior areas of the top and the apron to give a little more thickness for working with hold fasts. That's traditionally been the kind of Achilles's heel of building a Nicholson with straight-up 2x planks. By the time you get them decently flattened, you're looking at something closer to 1-1/4" thick, which is getting kind of marginal to get holdfasts to bite properly.


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## brtech (May 26, 2010)

Another tidbit on using construction lumber on a bench. When I built mine, I asked around. The usual suppliers close to me didn't have consistent species on lumber, kiln-dried or not. I found a yard that was not very far, but beyond what I normally consider for construction lumber that had SYP, and that was always what they stocked. So I took a trip out there, and discovered that they had pretty nice stuff, and indeed stamped SYP. I picked through the pile and got some decent boards. Sure, plenty of knots, but nothing bad. My bench is now, oh, maybe 7 or 8 years old, and I have not needed to re-flatten it.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

The key to picking SYP is to look for #1 or #2 prime graded lumber. Even then you have to pick through the stack but in theory, those should have fewer and smaller knots. Someone mentioned to me to also ask for ones graded as appearance or something like that because they will have even fewer knots.


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

I found that if I can get long 2x12's they have far fewer knots. You can get the yard to cut them in half or thirds to make the easy to transport.


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## memilanuk (Apr 15, 2008)

controlfreak said:


> I found that if I can get long 2x12's they have far fewer knots. You can get the yard to cut them in half or thirds to make the easy to transport.


Or... just bring a handsaw, maybe? 

In all seriousness, this is a really good use for a cheap hard point saw... or a cordless circ saw.


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

memilanuk said:


> Or... just bring a handsaw, maybe?
> 
> In all seriousness, this is a really good use for a cheap hard point saw... or a cordless circ saw.


I always reach for a handsaw for any cross cut in the shop. The BORG has a radial arm saw at the lumber aisle and I want that wood as light as possible.


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## memilanuk (Apr 15, 2008)

At most of the local lumber yards around here, if you asked them to cut a board down for you, they'd look at you like you were crazy or something. You came to buy it, you break it down. Getting it in your vehicle / trailer? Your problem. Sort through the pile to find a nicer board? Then we're back to the "Are you crazy?" look again  

To be fair, they cater mainly to contractors, who bring their own help and are there to get what they need and get back to the job. But their longer 2x10 & 2x12 boards are nicer than just about anything I've seen @ HD, so...

The big box stores (HD, at least... never seen any cut station @ Lowes) around here _technically_ do a limited # of cuts for you... but by the time you find an employee, have them find an employee that is actually trained to use the RAS, and then wait for that employee to actually get over to the lumber section... it's almost worth it to buy a cheapo hard point saw in the store and break it down yourself, stacking it on the cart as you go, then toss the saw on the pile and head for check out. You'd probably be done and in the parking lot before the 'trained' employee ever shows up back in the lumber area.


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

I have sometime brought my hard point saw with me and cross cut my boards on the parking knowing what I intended to do with the pieces. Getting the boards inside the car is not the sole parameter.
At least the employee will not cut it wrongly.


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