# How would you construct this modern, flush plank entry door? (considering a steel ladder frame core)



## PNWBachelor (Feb 23, 2021)

Hey all, I'm about to embark into uncharted territory for me-building an entry door-and I'd love to hear the voices of experience! I am particularly lacking where it comes to planning for weather, humidity changes and movement.

This will be a modern, flush, horizontal plank door, which I plan to install as a pivot door. The design is fairly simple and seems like it may actually be easier than a traditional rail and stile-but I am easily deceived.










My research says that these plank doors are best built on a ladder frame core for rigidity and stability, plus room to fill with insulation. Construction method varies for the core, as does thickness of the "planks"-from actual planks to a veneer.

As a semi-accomplished-but-still-hack metalworker and woodworker, my thinking is to weld a steel ladder frame core using 1" or 1.5" channel, wrap with solid wood around the edge, fill with insulation, and skin both sides with V-profile T&G mahogany.

My questions: 
Steel core with hardwood exterior seems unusual; but *is it unwise*? If a core is engineered to be as rigid and stable as possible, why not use steel, impervious to temp & humidity? (I found one youtube video from Kingpost Timberworks building a core of steel tubing surfaced with random cedar blocks. I thought the tubing would be hard to insulate, so I'm leaning toward channel. While channel can twist more than tube, I will mitigate this using thicker stock and additional bracing as needed.)

*Can I affix the planks directly to the steel framework?* I'd prefer not to add the weight and thickness of plywood sheathing. Can I use adhesive alone? *What's the best strategy to accommodate seasonal movement across the grain* (vertical on the door)?

*Should I apply a flexible sealant in the groove of each T&G?* The rigid foam can probably be sealed to the steel using GreatStuff or similar to fill all voids, so sealing at the planks may be unnecessary. OTOH, I don't want stuck moisture cupping the planks either.

*Any experience with modern pivot doors? * The hardware looks pretty cool and not too crazy to install, but what pitfalls should I be watching out for?

*What is the ideal final thickness? * I believe this type of door can comfortably be thicker than is traditional. I haven't bought stock but am thinking to surface and plane to .5"-.75" before milling T&G, V-groove profile. This would make final door 2.5-3".

More examples of what I'm after:


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## Sycamoray (Jun 24, 2020)

In order:

I don't see a reason not to use steel core.
You could affix the planks to the steel directly using mechanical fasteners (harder to hide) or adhesive (all adhesives fail eventually), or both (do you wear a belt & suspenders?). I would consider options for capturing a wooden subframe within the steel. You'll lose some insulation, but it would provide secure attachment for the surface planks.
To accommodate diurnal and seasonal wood movement, I'd try to distribute it between each plank by checking humidity on the day you assemble and providing a smaller or large gap between each of the surface planks. 
I would use the sealant. Not for the insulation factor, but as you've said you don't want moisture getting into the door. Even if no wood warps, bends, or cups, you'll have a mold problem.
I have no experience with making pivot doors and have only admired one on the house of a friend.
Unlike many houses, on a modern-style place a 3" thick pivoting door would be visually pleasing. Does the house in question have modern architecture and furnishings?


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## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

How are you going to cut the bevel for swing radius in steel? Or just big clearance gap? Water/AC leakage?

Knob? Latch? Deadbolt? Peephole? In steel? You making jamb as well? Jamb to be metal or wood? Max door width (2-6, 3-0, ?), thickness, height (80" is standard) ?

Fire rating needed? Self close & latch? Swing both ways?

Why not make internals wood? Skin will make a stressed web. Should help hold things together.

Interior or Exterior? Exterior doors are generally solid core and thicker than interior doors.

Weather stripping? Stop moulding? Threshold? Floor mat'l (both sides - carpet may require trim).

Kinda need to design this in a little more detail.

6P's


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## CWWoodworking (Nov 28, 2017)

Steel frame wrapped in 1/4" ply, 1/8" plank veneers.

Make sure you use the right glue, being an exterior door.

Insulate in between.


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## PNWBachelor (Feb 23, 2021)

Thanks for these considerations, all! 


> You could affix the planks to the steel directly using mechanical fasteners (harder to hide) or adhesive (all adhesives fail eventually),
> - Sycamoray


I just built an ipe "porch" for this same entryway where, due to extremely low clearance (and not wanting to jackhammer out the pad underneath), I affixed the decking to 1/4" steel sleepers instead of traditional joists. I used two types of screws for this: Self-tapping wood-to-metal screws where I had room; and machine screws where the steel was nearly right on top of the concrete. I drilled and hand-tapped each hole, which was laborious but completely doable! Either one of these options could securely affix my planks to the wood core.

However, in none of these images of commercial doors do I see anything like plugs; so I figure they must be using adhesive. I could affix the exterior side first with adhesive, then screw through the metal into the wood from the inside-out-if I was really worried about the longevity of the adhesive on the humidity-side of the door.

I like your idea to check humidity and tailor the gaps accordingly at the time of assembly-sounds expert-level! I will do this, but for my level of experience it will still just be a semi-wild guess.

To be completely honest, the look of the entry and door may seem a little out-of-place for a while while we line up some further renovation work. But, the house is trending in the "Northwest Contemporary" direction, with exposed beams etc but in a clean and modern way. shrug


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## PNWBachelor (Feb 23, 2021)

> How are you going to cut the bevel for swing radius in steel? Or just big clearance gap? Water/AC leakage?
> 
> Knob? Latch? Deadbolt? Peephole? In steel? You making jamb as well? Jamb to be metal or wood? Max door width (2-6, 3-0, ?), thickness, height (80" is standard) ?
> 
> ...


Some good questions. Firstly, it wouldn't be solid steel; just a "ladder frame" made with C-channel (so a peephole is no problem).

This would be skinned on both sides with planks, but also wrapped on all edges with solid wood for appearance, mounting hardware and fine-tuning the final dimension. This would accommodate a radius as well, if needed.

I'm planning a pull handle with a deadbolt, no latch. (I've seen magnets used to hold the door in the closed position in lieu of latch.) In one youtube example, the latch area was made of a solid wood block glued into the steel frame, which zig-zagged around it. Instead of doing this, I plan to drill right through the wood edging and the "webbing" of the C-channel, which should make for an extremely resilient door.

Door size tentatively planned at 4' x 80". Pivot point ~6" in from the side, so finish opening will be just a bit more generous than standard 36". My door height was limited to standard 80" for now, but I'm also considering designing for a bolt-on extension to make it an 8' door; future-proofed for the next stage of our remodel.

My reasoning for planning a steel core over wood is that I think it'll be far easier and quicker for me to execute a flat, stable, extremely strong frame this way. I know it's possible with wood, and a well-planned and executed mortise and tenon assembly could be ideal; but this would take me far longer to figure out and execute. If I finish my frame and then get worried that the pivot bearing point on the bottom rail should have a little more support for the weight, it's as easy as chopping another stick or two of steel and burning it in… Preferably before wood is attached. 

My questions were really about constructing the door slab, but you have good considerations for full context: I will build a traditional jam with sidelight, solid wood. The pivot door hardware bears the full weight of the door straight down through the threshold to the sub-floor-the door does not hang on the jam. The only thing not traditional about the pivot door jam is the placement of the stop molding on either side of the pivot. (And, I suppose, the upper pivot mortised into the top of the frame.)

No fire-rating; no self-close; one-way swing only via pivot-appropriate stop molding; weather stripping yes; Considering an automatic door bottom if the door ends up wide enough to mortise it in next to the centered pivot hardware-another selling point for going 3" over 2.5".


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## PNWBachelor (Feb 23, 2021)

> Steel frame wrapped in 1/4" ply, 1/8" plank veneers.
> 
> Make sure you use the right glue, being an exterior door.
> 
> ...


This was how I wanted to go with it too, until considering different edge profiles. For the "Modern yet rustic" look these higher-end models achieve, they display the planks' end grain all the way down the edge of the door. Obviously I wouldn't want to display plywood-and-veneer.  There are ways around this, skinning the steel frame and then edging with solid wood; but the only way to show girthy plank-ends is to build with girthy planks, which I think won't leave room for ply.

Any adhesive suggestions? Something like 3M 5200 is used in extreme marine environments to seal and bond wood, metal and fiberglass. I figured I could try a couple bits and test to failure, at least to determine initial strength. But, I'm guessing I don't need to reinvent the wheel here-wood-to-metal in exterior applications must not be so uncommon.

here's a screenshot from an installation vid which depicts the edge profile of one of these doors.


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## CWWoodworking (Nov 28, 2017)

1/2" steel tubing, 1/4" plywood wrap, 3/8 lap siding. Veneer ends, or solid wood.

I think a veneer would be stronger. I guess I never look at the end of a door.

What kind of hardware? I like this design.


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## tvrgeek (Nov 19, 2013)

I think I would lay up Baltic birch.


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## Tony1212 (Aug 26, 2013)

That screenshot looks like it uses shiplap for the door faces at around 1/2" thick. It looks like it is glued to a wood core (I don't see any nail/screw holes that have been filled). Not sure how to get around seasonal movement with that. Maybe they're only rated for areas where the humidity doesn't fluctuate that much?


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## 1thumb (Jun 30, 2012)

http://singcore.com/news/how-to-build-the-best-large-pivot-entry-door

this guy made the door but can't find that video


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## JohnDon (Mar 14, 2015)

Beautiful door, and from the amount and quality of planning you've already done, I'm not worthy to make any suggestions. That said, the only comment is on the screenshot showing the edge profile: the shiplap planks are installed upside down!


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## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

Shiplap is installed with a little space between pieces but still overlapping. This allows for wood movement. The overlap is on the top so rain sheds like clapboards.

What climate are you in? The metal will attract condensation and want to rot internally.

48" wide and over 2" thick is a *big* door. You need to estimate the total weight and stresses to size the pivot. Metal weighs a *lot* more than wood. You using steel or aluminum? You planning some type of bearing or thick teflon washer on the bottom?

Hollow core doors usually include skin spacers to stiffen the large opening between the frame. If you get your wood surface too thin the long width will allow flexing and breakage. I know for a fact that I can punch a hole in a 16" wide 1/4" panel with my fist. You'll need internal supports or thicker panels for enough strength to resist someone like me from kicking through your door and invading your home.

I'd run a vertical inside the door at the pivot point.

Speaking of pivots, if you put a stud top and bottom the top stud needs to be spring loaded so you can push it down to insert the door. Be sure to include that in your door frame design. You see this in bifold door hinges.

You also need to make sure that the pivot pin can't be pressed down from the OUTSIDE as this would make it trivial to press the pin down and have the door fall open.

I think combining metal and wood is going to be *much* more difficult than building the door out of all wood.

Good luck & have fun. Post pics as you progress.


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## PCDub (Sep 24, 2017)

> ... the shiplap planks are installed upside down!
> 
> - JohnDon


yep!


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## PNWBachelor (Feb 23, 2021)

> ... the shiplap planks are installed upside down!
> 
> - JohnDon
> 
> ...


I was trying to figure that out too and it 100% looks like it's upside-down in the screenshot. However, from another still, you can tell they actually used floating slats in rabbets as opposed to shiplap. Not sure if that's better or worse than upside-down shiplap, and can't figure out why they would do this (getting more coverage out of the stock??)

At any rate, my plan is to use rightside-up shiplap or T&G; but probably shiplap.


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## PNWBachelor (Feb 23, 2021)

Actually here's a better image of the "shiplap," although it's still a little hard to make out in the screenshot. (I would do a traditional shiplap, not quite sure why they opted for these floating slats. Maybe to get more coverage out of the material?)










It's from this youtube vid


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## Knockonit (Nov 5, 2017)

built a few doors for here in az. 
core was a pc of 3/4 water proof plyw, with 2.25 inch frame work, with either a ship lap or tongue and groove wood fill on each side, some have been some really nice knotty alder, and a lot of mesquite, a few mahogany ones, haven't had any complaints, my own front door is 42'' x 7ft and about 2.5 inches thick, swings on a rixson pivot set in the floor, slight breeze will move it. 
put a speak easy glass windy in it, with a simple door for inside privacy. hehe, which needs repair, dang grandkid was a little rough trying to open, didn't pay attention to latch and broke, it, if he wasn't so big, i'd tamp his hide, lol

otherwise, door has been awesome for about 8 years. 
good luck
Rj in az


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## PNWBachelor (Feb 23, 2021)

> http://singcore.com/news/how-to-build-the-best-large-pivot-entry-door
> 
> this guy made the door but can t find that video
> 
> ...


Awesome, hadn't come across this build or that site, thanks!



> built a few doors for here in az.
> core was a pc of 3/4 water proof plyw, with 2.25 inch frame work, with either a ship lap or tongue and groove wood fill on each side, some have been some really nice knotty alder, and a lot of mesquite, a few mahogany ones, haven t had any complaints, my own front door is 42 x 7ft and about 2.5 inches thick, swings on a rixson pivot set in the floor, slight breeze will move it.
> put a speak easy glass windy in it, with a simple door for inside privacy. hehe, which needs repair, dang grandkid was a little rough trying to open, didn t pay attention to latch and broke, it, if he wasn t so big, i d tamp his hide, lol
> 
> ...


Great intel, nice to know that somebody is out there doing it! Any idea what your 42×7' door weights in at? I think you've probably got the proportions right at 2.5", 3" might be too much without starting to look a little wild.

I'll give the Rixson hardware another look; I've been leaning towards Dorma for the weight rating to price ratio.

Oh and good luck with the grandkid!


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## PNWBachelor (Feb 23, 2021)

> Shiplap is installed with a little space between pieces but still overlapping. This allows for wood movement. The overlap is on the top so rain sheds like clapboards.
> 
> What climate are you in? The metal will attract condensation and want to rot internally.
> 
> ...


I'm in Seattle, so-not dry. Covered entry of course, but still humidity. Somebody advised "yes" seal between planks; so that would effectively act as vapor barrier and I don't expect condensation will be a problem.

Weight: Steel is definitely heavier than wood, but the amount of material needed in cubic inches for a given structure can be much less. The 1.5" A36 channel I'm looking at using weighs only 1.17 lbs/ft, so I can dump 40 ft into the thing for frame and bracing and I'm only at about 45 lbs. 1/2" mahogany planks on 2 sides adds about 100lbs, and the rigid foam insulation is negligible. ~150lb for finished 48×96x2.5" door seems not terrible!

Comparatively, a 1.75" *solid mahogany* door for the same large opening might weigh about 185 lbs.

Hardware: The pivot is actually the "easy" part-the hardware is tried-and-true from various manufacturers and rated by weight-440, 500, 600, 1000 pounds for commercial applications! Installation is super slick, where the door is set on the sealed-bearing lower pivot post, tilts into the frame, and the top pivot is then lowered down into its socket in the door with a threaded adjustment (only accessible with the door already open, of course). Two more hidden screws in the upper socket adjust pitch and lean to fine-tune the fit of the door. I believe the only tricky part will be nailing the lower pivot location, as that part is not adjustable after the fact. I'm leaning toward the Dorma CP440, rated for 440 lbs (easily twice the weight of what I'm planning).

I do not want you kicking through my door and invading my home, haha. I'm thinking 1/2" mahogany should be fairly stout, but I will do some testing and make sure *I* at least won't be able to kick through it! I think I'll have a fine enough webbing of channel bracing welded in that the planks will have plenty of support; and crawling through the gaps in the steel if they managed to rip the planks off would be very awkward for all but the tiniest of home-invaders. Love that you know for a fact you can punch through a 1/4" panel, haha.

And you're right on about the vertical members at the pivot point; I imagine a modified X-bracing with an additional member that bears from the center right down over the load-bearing point at the pivot.

Lastly, on combining metal and wood-well my sales email from Grizzly this very morning had the subject line, *"Woodworking Challenge: Incorporate Metal Into Your Next Project" * Ha! Now if that isn't destiny.

I don't know you and don't mean to presume; but I wonder if your skepticism, and thinking using all wood would be much easier, could possibly stem from the fact that A) You may not have done much metal fabrication, and/or B) You are a much more experienced woodworker than I (very likely true). Here's my logic: a stave-core or rail & stile door is meticulously engineered to maximize rigidity and strength of the joints while mitigating the movement inherent in wood. A welded steel frame easily excels at all the things you're trying to force the wood to do, in some ways against its very nature.

As far as ease of assembly, here's how I'd describe it for anybody who's never run a MIG welder: imagine "woodworking" where you just chop a bunch of sticks-exact measurements, 1/16" or even 1/8" under doesn't really matter, arrange them on a table, then stick them all together with a hot glue gun in a few minutes. Ridiculous, right? But, this is basically what welding is like, except that the finished frame could hold your car! I was a woodworker before I was a welder, but-I don't know… any time I need something super strong that doesn't need to look good, steel is my go-to.

But admittedly, I'm just a DIYer who always gets in over my head taking on projects, and there easily may be pitfalls I haven't thought of, so who knows? Maybe I'll let everybody know in a couple of months!


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## PNWBachelor (Feb 23, 2021)

Well folks, something is going to happen here, one way or another: I have Sapele boards machined and a steel frame welded up (still going to add a little more support to hold solid wood for the deadbolt, and over the hinge).

But I'm back for some advice before I glue up.

How much gap between boards? I gather Sapele is quite stable. Relative humidity here averages 60 to 80 around the year; and it's slightly lower right now.

Can I glue the full width of each board, or do I need to do just a dot in the middle to let them "float" and avoid cupping & spitting? (I think I'm being overly cautious, and it's the aggregated width of wider glue-ups that moves enough to be a concern… as long as I leave appropriate space between planks.)

I'm thinking gorilla glue. I tested and it took a very good amount of force to break a small glue spot, which tore both grain out of the wood and millscale off of the metal. (Now I've course-sanded down to bright metal and think it will be even stronger.)

Should I add a screw or two (from the inside-out) to the planks on the exterior side, or is the glue sufficient? (I don't imagine they do this with a wood core.)

I'm planning to pre-seal the back side of boards to help reduce movement. Good idea? (I'm seeing people recommend Marine Spar Varnish for exterior doors). Does sealing interfere with glue bond?

Favorite non-hardening caulk to run between each plank on the back-side? Looks like polyurethane or butyl is best for adhering to wood and long-term flexibility.

Thanks again for all the considerations and advice!


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## shipwright (Sep 27, 2010)

I made these ones about sixteen years ago and they are still as new. Maybe there is something in my methods you can use. 
https://www.lumberjocks.com/projects/72886


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

Cool looking but sailing in uncharted water far as I can see. 
Good Luck


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## CWWoodworking (Nov 28, 2017)

Have you thought about skinning the metal frame with 1/4" plywood?

Would add a ton of strength, make glueing easier, and add another layer between metal and elements.

I would leave 1/16" between boards.


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## PNWBachelor (Feb 23, 2021)

> I made these ones about sixteen years ago and they are still as new. Maybe there is something in my methods you can use.
> https://www.lumberjocks.com/projects/72886
> 
> - shipwright


Great stuff, very impressive work! You're right, construction-wise this is very similar to what I am trying to do, just with a different core material and finished look. I need to improve my google technique, wish I'd come across this while planning. Looks like I should test TB3 with the steel; I like the "flexible" aspect to allow a touch of movement for weather.



> Have you thought about skinning the metal frame with 1/4" plywood?
> 
> Would add a ton of strength, make glueing easier, and add another layer between metal and elements.
> 
> ...


-I had considered sheathing with plywood and opted not to; but now you have me reconsidering. Can you elaborate on the benefits? 
Either way, wood glues to steel-ply or planks. So what's the benefit of gluing planks to ply and ply to steel instead planks to steel? Would you use full glue coverage on each plank? I suppose this could be stronger (e.g., imagining somebody trying to take the door apart with a crowbar to get through).

-It would be stronger as a torsion box, but perhaps not necessary-the 1.5" thick channel is quite stout and rigid.

-This would increase finished width from 2.5 to 3"; Wonder if that's too thick and if the increased weight is worth it.

-I've been hoping about 1/16 will be sufficient gap, sounds like a plan.



> Cool looking but sailing in uncharted water far as I can see.
> Good Luck
> 
> - Aj2


Not well-charted, but I think not "argh there be monsters" uncharted, haha.


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## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

The reason folx are suggesting ply as a transition material is to reduce the differential stress in the wood/metal transition. The metal doesn't expand at all with humidity. Solid wood can move 5% (oak) over major humidity changes. Plywood expands a little. This reduces the inter-layer stress.

Its the same way in metal plating. Chrome directly over steel will crack and flake unless you put a nice layer of copper in between.

If the ply is screwed to the steel and the wood glued (with proper waterproof construction adhesive) to the ply, then things should be stable as long as the wood has some expansion room so it won't buckle.

Most times you want to use KD lumber because its overdry and can only expand, generally making joints tighter. But in this case I would go with the wettest wood. This way the wetter wood can only shrink, keeping the shiplap from buckling during the rainy season.

I'd finish both sides of each board prior to installation to prevent warpage. If the back of the boards is unfinished but the front is then you're going to have warpage and cupping over time.


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## CWWoodworking (Nov 28, 2017)

I think strength and ease of construction are the 2 biggest benefits of using ply. While you can glue wood/steel, I'd feel better about wood/wood long term. The ply, you can just glue and screw cause it will never be seen.

Glue the centers of each plank to the plywood and you should be good.

I would not use wet wood as Mark describes. No good will come of it.


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## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

By wet I don't mean green. Just use a higher moisture content so the wood is fully expanded and will only shrink over time.


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## PNWBachelor (Feb 23, 2021)

> The reason folx are suggesting ply as a transition material is to reduce the differential stress in the wood/metal transition. The metal doesn t expand at all with humidity. Solid wood can move 5% (oak) over major humidity changes. Plywood expands a little. This reduces the inter-layer stress.
> 
> Its the same way in metal plating. Chrome directly over steel will crack and flake unless you put a nice layer of copper in between.
> 
> - Madmark2


Great analogy with the chrome plating; I hadn't thought about the plywood acting as a buffer for movement. Starting to wish I'd started with a 1" frame instead of 1.5", for 2.5" final thickness.

Do we think 1/8" plywood would be similarly effective, or is it too thin to offer much of a buffer or strength?

I like the thought of starting with wood at it's max moisture content, but I don't know how I'd do this. Anyway, it's already bought and profiled. I bought a moisture meter and it's right around 7%, having been on-site for 3 weeks; but I don't know where to expect it will top out.


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## CWWoodworking (Nov 28, 2017)

IMO, there is zero reason to start with wet wood. You have to leave room for each piece to expand/contract. The whole door isn't moving, individual pieces are.


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## PNWBachelor (Feb 23, 2021)

> IMO, there is zero reason to start with wet wood. You have to leave room for each piece to expand/contract. The whole door isn't moving, individual pieces are.
> 
> - CWWoodworking


My guess is that, with tons of experience, you get a 6th sense for how much the wood is going to move (contract or expand), but I don't have that.

So I think I get what madmark is saying-if there was a way to do the build knowing that I was starting at max moisture content, it would just take some of the guesswork out-butt the boards together and only worry about shrinkage, rather then trying to guess at minimum gaps I can get away with. It's not like I'm going to re-humidify the boards or only build in November though, so I think this is purely theoretical.

What do ya'll think of using 1/8" ply at this point to keep thickness and weight down?


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## PNWBachelor (Feb 23, 2021)

Alright, I've taken a step or two back, then a vacation, and now following the good advice here and re-planned with a 5mm plywood skin on both sides. I actually rebuild the steel frame with 1" channel now, planning to use the original for another project.

*Gluing planks to plywood*: Would it be a mistake to skim TB3 across the entire back of each board (still leaving 1/16" gap)? I considered sealing the boards on both sides before gluing, but I believe sealed wood doesn't adhere as well. So, I'm thinking the glue itself could seal the wood, and I'd be sure they won't be falling off anytime soon.

I'd hate to see them cupping or lifting at the corners if I just ran a stripe down the center of each board; but will do that if that's the standard approach joining planks to ply.


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## CWWoodworking (Nov 28, 2017)

How thick of wood? Type?


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## squazo (Nov 23, 2013)

My dad built a deck once. Steel I beams with treated lumber on top. He was concerned with rust so he put self adhesive fire and ice roofing membrane on the top of each beam. The beams also had red oxide primer from the factory. 7 or 8 years later we ripped it all out, because my dad is a crazy person and wanted a concrete patio instead of a deck. No rust on any of the beams where the membrane was. Quite a bit everywhere else. Probably could use some carboline epoxy paint to accomplish this as well,may be easier.


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## PNWBachelor (Feb 23, 2021)

> How thick of wood? Type?
> 
> - CWWoodworking


It's 1/2" Sapele as pictured:


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## CWWoodworking (Nov 28, 2017)

Glue the overlap side down and about 60% of the board.


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