# Rough cut dining table - fancy breadboard?



## TheThom (Jul 1, 2011)

Hi everybody, I lurk a lot more than I post, but I figured you might give some guidance on this:

I'm making a rustic style dining table The legs are rough cut 4×4 fir and the top is going to be rough cut 9/4×8.5" aspen. Overall dimensions ~42.5×84"

I've read a few sources and like the designs on these sites. I understand that these are NOT professional woodworker sites, and my joinery is going to be different anyway (biscuits + pocket hole screws). But they do give a good overview.

DIY Pete

Ana White

Another one

Here are my sketch-up plans










I'm going to have 1/2" overlap on the joints - should give it a bulky rustic feel.










Also the matching bench










So I have a good handle on my plans, but I keep getting stuck on the breadboard. The sites listed above do not follow the classic mortise tenon method of attachment. I am also going to have multiple support boards underneath (see underside image). With all of these, do I need to worry doubt wood spreading and damaging the breadboards? I live in a very dry area at 7500ft. The kitchen does have a gas fireplace that cycles on/off.

Also, just a gratuitous pic of my last project. Some sliding barn doors in the same room that are made from reclaimed cedar. (It might help you picture the space - or I might just love the way they turn out and want to post the pics  )










I am asking for practical answers - will it matter if I attach the breadboards in the manner listed in those sites above ([pocket hole screw and biscuits)?


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## BinghamtonEd (Nov 30, 2011)

I looked at the DIY Pete and Ana White plans and I think that the "breadboard ends" they have implemented there are more cosmetic than anything. Pocket screws are a great fastener in some situations, but I don't think that what they've done is doing much here structurally (it will provide some resistance). I think if any one of those boards really wants to cup or twist, it's probably going to. My guess is the plans on those sites were aimed at a demographic that doesn't have the ability/desire to do a proper breadboard end.

The strength in the breadboard end comes from the fact that the ends of the long slats are housed within the end piece, running perpendicular. Have you considered just doing normal breadboard ends? If you have a router, you could knock them out pretty quickly. Looking at that awesome door you made, I don't think you'll have any problems doing it, from a skills point of view.


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## TheThom (Jul 1, 2011)

If the point of the breadboards is to prevent cupping/twisting, won't the large number of support boards screwed in place prevent that?


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Yes Thom
It will matter.Firmly gluing bread board end in place will not allow for wood movement,resulting in a cracked table top.

http://toddpartridgedesign.com/sr_pages/documents/UnderstandingWoodMovement.pdf


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## BinghamtonEd (Nov 30, 2011)

I think if you pocket screw it on, the seasonal wood movement is going to loosen up those screws over time. You've got one end piece that, relative to the long pieces, is moving negligibly, screwed to the long pieces which are moving (width-wise) enough to need to be considered. Something will probably give. With the breadboard ends, you don't need to glue it on, you can pin it in place, using elongated holes for pins outward of the center pin. The center would be fixed, and the rest would be free to float within the breadboard end. The pins serve to pull the breadboard end tight to the edge of the table, and keep it there.


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## TheThom (Jul 1, 2011)

I wanted you guys to say, "Psht, Thom! It doesn't matter! The fancy breadboards for woodworking snobs!"

But it seems you want me to do it right!? Ugh!

OK, next question: do I need to worry about the underside screws for support? Will screwing down the top cause a lot of problems?


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## BinghamtonEd (Nov 30, 2011)

I would consider some of these to fasten the top. You could cut a saw kerf on the inside of the aprons and use a few of these.

One thing I'd be careful of is, if you do a proper breadboard end, I'd make sure that if you screwed up into the top, you didn't accidentally screw through the breadboard end and the enclosed tenon, since your picture has the ends over the apron.


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## TheThom (Jul 1, 2011)

Thanks. Ordered some of those gizmos from Rockler.

Now I need to figure our if I want and exposed joint (more rustic) or hide it. I'm leaning toward exposing it…might blend well with the overlapped joints on the legs. I would like a deep groove to connect it, but I"m limited by the depth of my router/dado blades that I'll use to cut the groove.


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## TheThom (Jul 1, 2011)

Thanks guys. I think the 9/4 Aspen will let me do a beefy open breadboard joint that will help with the rustic look.


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## TheThom (Jul 1, 2011)

Thanks for all the advice guys. First attempts at breadboards doen the right way and I'm pretty happy with how they turned out.

Thanks again.


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## bondogaposis (Dec 18, 2011)

I need to worry doubt wood spreading and damaging the breadboards? I live in a very dry area at 7500ft.

Yes you do. Those of us that have been on this site for a while see it all the time. Construction methods that ignore wood movement, then we get posts that begin, "How do I fix this".

I live in a very dry area at 7500ft.

Does it ever rain there? If it does, then you get days of 100% humidity followed by severe drying.


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## SCOTSMAN (Aug 1, 2008)

Idealy you should fit the breadboard edge with just a light smear of glue at both extreme ends and a dab in the middle not all the way across the tongue or groove.And also the screws enterring the top of the board can be screwed up as normal but the tongue below should have the mating holes elongated to allow free movement.Then you should be covered for expansion contraction according to humidity heat etc etc.Have fun Alistair


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## BinghamtonEd (Nov 30, 2011)

> Idealy you should fit the breadboard edge with just a light smear of glue at both extreme ends and a dab in the middle not all the way across the tongue or groove.
> - SCOTSMAN


Wouldn't gluing the ends trap the top in the breadboard and lead to expansion/contraction issues? I agree with the dab in the center, I would just make the center pin a firm fit and glue that one in (although not necessary if it's a tight fit). I'd leave the other ones unglued, the holes on the breadboard should be tight but the tongue should be elongated like you said. I would opt for wooden dowels instead of screws because a) they look nicer and require no concealment and b.) they're a uniform width and would make sure the breadboard end is pulled tight to the top.

Thom,
That is one fine lookin' table!


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## TheThom (Jul 1, 2011)

> I need to worry doubt wood spreading and damaging the breadboards? I live in a very dry area at 7500ft.
> 
> Yes you do. Those of us that have been on this site for a while see it all the time. Construction methods that ignore wood movement, then we get posts that begin, "How do I fix this".
> 
> ...


Let me clarify: I took your advice and made the breadboards. I'm now just showing off the finished product.

But thanks for not reading the thread and just commenting at the bottom.

I did it the right way with dowels. Only the middle is tight and the outer ones have room to move.


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## Oilag11 (Feb 28, 2015)

Great work Thom. How did you prep and finish the top?


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

Nice beefy table. You could have skipped the center support but it looks fine. Good job.


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## TheThom (Jul 1, 2011)

Thanks!

The top was sanded with 120 grit paper (to smooth out splinters, but keep the rough cut marks) and then stained with a coat of Varathane walnut stain, then sanded with 180 grit paper and a coat of Varathane kona stain. After is dried there are ~5 coats of Varathane water bed polyurethane. The last couple of coats were lightly sanded with 220 grit b/t coats.

I know it didn't need the center support, but I really like the look it added.


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## PhillipRCW (Dec 9, 2014)

I will start out by saying that I am so sick of seeing rustic farm tables in my area. However, you did a great job. If I could show your post to all the DIY people in my area and make them build half the table you did, I would be a happy builder. I actually have nothing but rustic furniture in our home, but I don't build it unless it's commissioned right now. So many people have saturated the market with their Ana white designed tables that it kills me.

I'm very happy to see you did the breadboard ends the right way. I love the look of the exposed mortise and tenon at the end. I've seen them covered and I don't like it as much.


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## TheThom (Jul 1, 2011)

> I will start out by saying that I am so sick of seeing rustic farm tables in my area. However, you did a great job. If I could show your post to all the DIY people in my area and make them build half the table you did, I would be a happy builder. I actually have nothing but rustic furniture in our home, but I don t build it unless it s commissioned right now. So many people have saturated the market with their Ana white designed tables that it kills me.
> 
> I m very happy to see you did the breadboard ends the right way. I love the look of the exposed mortise and tenon at the end. I ve seen them covered and I don t like it as much.
> 
> - PhillipRCW


Thanks. My plan is to use it for 20+ years. I wanted something that would've looked good before the current rustic fad and will hopefully look good long after it fades.

We'll see.


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

Nice work.


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