# Manufacturers struggle to preserve 'shop math' skills



## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)

to undisclosed recipients
http://www.centredaily.com/2012/03/27/3141661/manufacturers-struggle-to-preserve.html

Manufacturers struggle to preserve 'shop math' skills

By JANE M. VON BERGEN - The Philadelphia Inquirer

Posted: 4:00am on Mar 27, 2012; Modified: 8:08am on Mar 27, 2012

Harold's fork truck is rated for 4,000 pounds. He has to move and stack 10 skids (pallets) of paper, each weighing 1,500 pounds. What is the maximum number of skids he can lift at one time?

If someone wants a job at Case Paper Co., that person had better know how to calculate the answer. Even more basic: Can the person use a tape measure?

"You'd be amazed at how many people can't read a ruler to one-sixteenth of an inch," said Lee Cohn of Case Paper. Case converts huge paper rolls into cardboard boxes, pharmaceutical packaging, even lottery tickets.

Gather a bunch of manufacturers like Cohn in a room, and it won't take them long to start complaining about their inability to find workers adequately skilled in "shop math," which can include trigonometry and calculus among other types of mathematics.

For years, shop-math skills weren't really an issue because manufacturing, as a sector of the economy, was a perennial job-shedder. But since early 2010, manufacturers have been hiring - not enough to replace the nearly eight million jobs lost since the late 1970s, but enough to get policymakers worried about workforce capability.

"We want to get people back to work, and there's a supply of bodies," said Anthony Girifalco, a vice president of Delaware Valley Industrial Resource Center, a quasi-public group that assists manufacturers. "There's demand in the manufacturing sector. But how do you close the skills gap?"

Decades of job loss mean that the surviving workers, who are also the most skilled, are nearing retirement age. The pipeline to replace those workers - machinists, tool makers, and others - is woefully inadequate, especially when finding novice workers capable of the simplest calculations is a problem.

Experts in manufacturing and workforce development say that it's easy to blame schools, but that they're only part of the problem. The nature of the work itself has changed.

These days, manufacturing is complex - and so is the mathematics involved.

At K'nex Industries Inc., for example -the Hatfield, Pa., manufacturer of the popular construction toy - robotics is increasingly being used on the factory floor, Chief Financial Officer Robert Haines said. That means there are fewer lower-level jobs, but there is a demand for highly skilled workers who can program and repair the robots.

"It used to be if you worked fine with your hands, you could make it. You could have a job," said Michael A. Lucas, director of the North Montco Technical Career Center, a vocational high school not far from the K'nex plant. "Now, if you cannot do a B average in math, you cannot even obtain that job, because the academic and technical skills must go hand-in-hand."

Meanwhile, he said, the students most able to handle higher technical demands are choosing college over technical training for manufacturing.

Glenn Artman, a professor of science, engineering and technology at Delaware County Community College near Philadelphia, has spent the past 28 years teaching shop math, computer-aided drawing, blueprint reading, and other manufacturing skills.

To him, "shop math" is a misnomer. It's simply the applied mathematics needed on a job, whatever the job is: A cook needs ratios to convert a recipe that feeds four to one that feeds 40. An auto mechanic needs to calculate cubic-inch displacement to check engine performance. A building-trades worker hanging drywall needs to be able to measure the distance between studs.

Old-timers on the job take their math skills for granted. "It's so mundane to the people that do it every day," Artman said. But it's easy to get rusty, he added: "If you don't use it, you lose it."

Relevance is an issue, he said. With the speed of technological change, even instructors with industrial backgrounds have to struggle to stay current.

At the North Montco Technical Career Center, curriculum developer Bob Lacivita has created guides that translate regular high-school mathematics concepts to "shop math." There are different guides for auto mechanics, cooks and welders.

"The technical program serves as the catalyst for kids to understand math. It's the motivator," Lucas said. "We've had kids who have had difficult times with algebra and math in the high school setting, but as soon as they make the connection here, they start to do the mathematics, because it is relevant."

Then, he said, the problem becomes that these students aren't able to apply what they've learned on a practical basis to what they need to score well on the more theoretical mathematics in standardized tests.

"Yet we are being forced to be accountable to those scores and benchmarks," Hughes said. So the school also translates shop math to regular math for test prep.

Charles Marcantonio, director of employment and training for the Manufacturing Alliance of Philadelphia, said the quasi-governmental organization has developed a basic manufacturing course that includes math instruction.

At Weber Display & Packaging Inc., process manager Chris O'Hearn tells applicants that he'll teach them how to operate machines that fold, score, and label the boxes his Philadelphia company processes. But they have to be able to pass - using pencil and paper - a 26-question math and reading quiz, with questions like this one: "Multiply 3.6 times 9.6."

O'Hearn estimated that 10 percent don't even try. An additional 30 percent can't pass the quiz, even with unlimited time. "I don't think there's anything difficult about it," he said. "But if they can't do this, we know they won't be successful on the job."


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Let's hear it for the success of the Department of Education and all the money we have pi$$ed away


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## darkhollow (Jul 5, 2011)

Thanks for posting this DAN, i read it back when you first put in up, and am planning on quoting it in my Master's thesis. I am an education grad student looking into the curricular, elementary and high-school subject applications of craft skills. It is my belief that if you put something in the student's hands that demonstrates the concepts, and allows the student to practice and test them out, that more students will be able to learn better, remember more and know how to use the knowledge presented to them in school.


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## Bibby (Nov 26, 2017)

Thank you for posting this article. I agree with you 100 percent!!

Gibby
<a href="http://www.ultimateroofingandconstruction.com/"> Ultimate Roofing and Construction


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## Fresch (Feb 21, 2013)

And yet they can vote!


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## ianmugoya18 (Feb 28, 2018)

Basic skills are not basic.


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## Fresch (Feb 21, 2013)

Not sure how much 10%and30% equals but, I think it is probably higher and the other numbers with the periods what are those?
Rewired a middle school years ago in an "influential " school system and walked into the wood shop, that had everything you could want all tarped with boxes of crap on top, I asked the shop teacher about it he said "we don't use that anymore we are training engineers here." 
I said "well who is going to dig the ditches?"


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## OleGrump (Jun 16, 2017)

Oh, how I long for "Olden Days" when Math and Shop were REQUIRED subjects. The snot-nosed kids nowadays can't even make change at the fast food register unless the machine tells them how much you're supposed to get back. Yeah, I'm REALLY happy that 33% of my annual income goes to "educate" the younger generation. Most of them can't read, write or do basic math. What the Hell are they LEARNING…..???


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## JCamp (Nov 22, 2016)

olegrump- they are learning to repeat back what they are told by the education system that is ran by the government and largely influenced by a certain political party. For the most part they do not want independent thinkers they want drones


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## stevepeterson (Dec 17, 2009)

I have been helping my 8th grade daughter with her math homework and the schools are teaching the skills. Last nights problems involved calculating the time it would take for a rock to hit the ground when thrown upwards from the top of a house. It was way beyond 3.6 times 9.6. She is doing calculations in 8th grade that I probably did in 11th grade.

My daughter is able to keep up with the math class. However, I hear her talking to her friends and nearly all of them are struggling with math. I think the schools are pushing so hard that some kids reach their breaking point and give up. Once they fall behind, it is very difficult to catch up. And once a kid tells themselves that they are no good with math, that mindset sticks with them for the rest of their lives.


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## Fresch (Feb 21, 2013)

> I have been helping my 8th grade daughter with her math homework and the schools are teaching the skills. Last nights problems involved calculating the time it would take for a rock to hit the ground when thrown upwards from the top of a house. It was way beyond 3.6 times 9.6. She is doing calculations in 8th grade that I probably did in 11th grade.
> 
> My daughter is able to keep up with the math class. However, I hear her talking to her friends and nearly all of them are struggling with math. I think the schools are pushing so hard that some kids reach their breaking point and give up. Once they fall behind, it is very difficult to catch up. And once a kid tells themselves that they are no good with math, that mindset sticks with them for the rest of their lives.
> 
> - Steve Peterson


 I like you helped my children, that is the difference, parental involvement, builds morals and increases self worth.
Keep up the good work!


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

> I have been helping my 8th grade daughter with her math homework and the schools are teaching the skills. Last nights problems involved calculating the time it would take for a rock to hit the ground when thrown upwards from the top of a house. It was way beyond 3.6 times 9.6.  She is doing calculations in 8th grade that I probably did in 11th grade.
> 
> My daughter is able to keep up with the math class. However, I hear her talking to her friends and nearly all of them are struggling with math. I think the schools are pushing so hard that some kids reach their breaking point and give up. Once they fall behind, it is very difficult to catch up. And once a kid tells themselves that they are no good with math, that mindset sticks with them for the rest of their lives.
> 
> - Steve Peterson


If the problem was an algebra problem where it went something like "a rock thrown upwards follows the equation Y=X^2+C1X+C2" and they had to find the roots to the equation to solve the problem I would see that as appropriate. Anything beyond that is a physics problem and not a math problem.

I am all for teaching advanced math in school (if done properly), but I think they need to teach kids to do basic stuff first. There are a ton of young adults that can't figure out how to compound interest and amortize a loan that they will actually use in their life. I am an engineer and I have had more math classes than I can count, but I believe that there is no need to teach any math beyond beginning Calculus in high school, personally I only made it through trig in high school because I did not take Algebra till 9th grade.

Public schools do a poor job preparing students for a math in a scientific major in college, that was one of the first things I was told in my beginning engineering class back in 1992.


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## MalcolmLaurel (Dec 15, 2013)

> If the problem was an algebra problem where it went something like "a rock thrown upwards follows the equation Y=X^2+C1X+C2" and they had to find the roots to the equation to solve the problem I would see that as appropriate. Anything beyond that is a physics problem and not a math problem.


My daughter, who's an 8th grade science teacher, tells me there's a push now to show how the different areas of study are related, so they're using more math in science classes (and vice versa) even at that level than they used to.


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## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

If you do not like the way public schools are teaching math, do something about it. Talk with your school board members about your concerns and ask what can be done. Talk to the superintendent of the school about your concerns.

The best thing I read in this thread was parents involvement. Education does not just come from school but comes from parents being involved. You can help your children with the math, check that they have done their home work and discuss your expectations for grades. I think that too often parents are not involved in the education. There is so much involvement in sports but how many show up for educational programs.


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## mudflap4869 (May 28, 2014)

How do we show our youth the value of education? Sports is the opiate of the uneducated. Just look at any high school year book and you can see where the outstanding academic achievement students, verses where the jocks stand in the opinion of the masses. See which ones get into the parades. 10 years later, see which one is an MD and who is a handyman working odd jobs, because he can't even fill out a job application. In 1965 when we graduated the quarter back was hailed as the hero of the town. He was handed everything he wanted. In 1980 that same man was mowing lawns and struggling to make a living. He had treated me and others like trash during high school, but was now humble and respectful of those who could achieve. I tutored him through several classes until he finally became an EMT. It was not until he was presented with the reality of life that he learned the value of education.


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## AthRoofer (Jul 24, 2018)

We're in big trouble if people can't learn how to read a measuring tape. You definitely can't get a job in the roofing business if your math and general labor skills aren't there. It's competitive in my industry Roofing Athens GA


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## corelz125 (Sep 23, 2015)

This common core they teach the kids now is horrible a simple 1st grade math problem takes them 5 minutes to get the answer now.


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## woodbutcherbynight (Oct 21, 2011)

Alot of good comments. Have to say that this push towards college and get a degree in anything is beginning to fall on it's butt. I have been a auto tech for 28 years, these days the kids that come in have zero idea what or where anything is or does. Get dirty? OMG not for me. Yet they find out how much we make and want that $$$ when we took years to learn the trade and put time in the trenches.

I have friends that work with the likes of Goodyear, Firestone, and other auto retailers. They all want Master ASE techs but are stuck on minimum wages, poor benefits and little if any paid vacations time. As the article stated we are getting older, the ones that know, and we also can be just as picky about who we work for, and demand better perks or the slot goes unfilled.

My point being this works both ways. Yes we need better educated and prepared people entering the workforce. But if the trend to burn out the older people continues the end result is much like a local retailer here. They are limited to tires, alignments, and some brake work. Any kind of diag work, they have no one that does it.


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

*


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## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

How do we show our kids the value of school?

What do you do if the schools aren't teaching the way you like?

One of the answers is the parents. Instead of complaining, spend a couple of hours a week teaching your kids. The main responsibility for education is not the schools. The parents are responsible for rearing and educating your children is with you.

I am all for getting involved with the schools but think that education starts at home at a very early age.


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## diverlloyd (Apr 25, 2013)

Public schools were made to educate a manual labor work force. Now the government wants to buy from other countries and a manual labor force isn't needed. So the schools slacked up and now are behind other countries. It also doesn't help that people in charge would rather put money into a couple trees in a median that they will just redo every two years instead of putting money in education. Teachers don't make enough, schools take away from shop and the arts classes but will throw money at new sports material. That is where our nations priorities are it's not education it's what can we do to divert attention away from what matters. Not to mention they teach absolutely nothing about money management and saving for later in life. They want sheep not shepards. When I was in school all you had to do was look at pictures in the text books every answer to homework and tests was the caption under the picture. No reason to read anything when you could just copy the answer. It was made easy for a reason.


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

Also, many people seem proud to state "I was never any good at math." How often do you hear someone announce "I can barely read and write." Yet, all these skills are important.


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## DBDesigns (May 29, 2018)

I don't even know where to start with the stream of consciousness I'm reading in this forum.
Fresch,
I-comma-like you-comma-helped my children-period. (I'm not picking on you I'm just trying to make a point.)

We are all in trouble right now and math skills are only a part of it. I had to google how to spell consciousness and I have a liberal arts degree with a BS in engineering on top of it. We can't blame either political party because neither of them are remotely concerned about reality. (i before e except after c and in other random words like neither.) Furthermore, this is not just a Department of Education problem. The colleges are teaching the wrong curriculums and disseminating theories as fact. (I had to google those two words too.)

My point is this; we live in a society that focuses on sound bites and short phrases instead of complete thoughts and well supported arguments. I have lost track of how many emails I have read with no capital letters.

Years ago before I went back to engineering school, I considered becoming a teacher. I thought it would be rewarding and I could supplement my income by picking up construction projects in the summers. When I ran the numbers, it became obvious that I could not feed my family on a teacher's salary. Today teachers struggle to make ends meet and are caught between bureaucratic administrators and angry parents.

We undervalue the most important profession in this country and reduce our teachers to the role of "babysitter" and we are doing our children a disservice if we do not pass our own knowledge on to them. Steve and Fresch are right. It is each parents responsibility to take control of their own children's education. Any school is good enough if the parents are involved enough.
Great topic Dan.
Thanks for the thought provoking article.


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## Fresch (Feb 21, 2013)

Well at least I didn't leave out any tees in my pronunciation like so many do.
It won't be long before the U.S. sounds like cockney old England!
Right or wrong I think my punctuation helps the idea of the words flow. 
) now stop "bullying " me and please be more PC, it's early and I haven't decided what of the 43 genders I'll relate to today!


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## BillWhite (Jul 23, 2007)

Had a bright young man helping me with some trim work on a home. Come to find out that he couldn't read a tape. 10 minutes later after "tape measure school", he was running with the project. What a shame that nobody ever taught him the basics.
Why isn't there a "life skills" program?


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## ChefHDAN (Aug 7, 2010)

I'll take this a bit further down the rabbit hole, but have the initial disclaimer that once upon a time parents held their children responsible for getting bad grades, but now sadly parents believe it's the teacher's fault.

My wife works in my county's school district at the elementary level, (after many years as a volunteer), and some of the stories I've heard are appalling. At some levels there is just too much special treatment given to many children that are so poorly behaved they can bring an entire class to a screeching halt. Teachers spend far too much time having to prepare special learning programs or testing environments because of certain sensitivities or Dr.'s prescribed hogwash. The schools are rated by their test scores, suspensions and expulsions, which drives more and more time & money being spent for a small percentage of the students that cannot behave. One student at my wife's school is so poorly behaved that a small office had to be set up as a "calming-room" and a schedule of teachers was required to have to sit with the student whenever they chose to have a fit, refuse to work, or even throw desks and chairs around the classroom.

The point was made above that the teachers are not paid enough but they are also frequently not even able to teach because of the "mainstreaming" mentality of treating all of the students the same when they are not. There is a line where "Diversity Training" and "Spirit of Inclusion" should not adversely affect to group as a whole.

I was a poor student, and started working at 13 (finished HS & went to Culinary School), I learned early that I liked having money and my father always stressed the importance of education and when the report cards were poor he'd say it was okay and, "the world needs ditch diggers too" he'd tell me. He went a step farther though and showed me the salaries of various jobs and taught me that Goals were important and that it took hard work to achieve them. My father also taught me early that my choices to behave badly would have consequences to my backside, and while I'm not suggesting that children need to be beaten, I do believe that some varieties of discipline have a very short learning curve.


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## robkesper (Dec 19, 2018)

Good article and straight to the point. I am not sure if this is in fact the best place to ask but do you people have any idea where to hire some professional writers? Thanks in advance Allergy Testing


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

And yet many of the kids can do it. It's not about smarts, it's about apathy. It's there in the schools if you want it. Don't blame the schools if your kids don't give a damn. That's their and your faults I'd say. Some people do it. Why don't yours? Some kids at school here in Maine go to MIT, others drop out. But they have the same opportunity.
And by yours I mean ours. Not necessarily picking on anyone in particular.

Someone mentioned some kids can't make change at the register at Mcdonalds. Who has change anyway? I don't know how to take care of a horse either. Who goes to Mcdonalds in one? I'm in my sixties and I don't carry cash; ever. I'll bet some of those same kids could figure out how to program the digital register though. I'll also bet the change carrying oldies wouldn't know how to turn it on. Who's the one who's out of it. The one who doesn't use money, or the one who doesn't know how to turn on their computer? Which might matter the most in this day and age?

I think us old folks need to stop sounding like our grandparents… ;-)


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

> I don t even know where to start with the stream of consciousness I m reading in this forum.
> Fresch,
> I-comma-like you-comma-helped my children-period. (I m not picking on you I m just trying to make a point.)
> 
> ...


I was a teacher for over 30 years. I directed my daughters away from the profession as it was a ton of work, low pay for seven years of college, and had little room for promotion or respect.
Both of them started working at or better salaries than the amount that I was at when I retired. And the big thing is that their futures aren't reliant on a group of random town folk on a school board deciding how they'll do their jobs or if they'll get medical or a raise.


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## runswithscissors (Nov 8, 2012)

I start fuming when employers gripe about the quality of applicants. I wonder what the hell they are doing about it. Are they supporting the schools? Are they funding and encouraging the kind of training they need?

I taught for 27 years. I had kids who had jobs that required them to work long, late hours. Of course they slept in class (when they could make it to class at all). The employers all bitched about the poor education the kids were getting. There's a huge irony in there somewhere if you can see it.


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