# Material cost vs. labor time: How much to spend?



## RogerBean (Apr 25, 2010)

How do you decide how much to spend on the materials for a project. I'm not really speaking of "for sale" projects here, but rather those things we build primarily because we want to, or for our own use. Professional decisions are of course determined by selling price, profit targets, and the like. LJ offers such a wide diversity of members, that we obviously use a range of criteria; some using pallet wood and others like the recent Matt Garcia curly maple chest.

In the past, I've often begun a project with less than optimal materials for any number of reasons, then when the project turned out well, felt really disheartened that I didn't spend a few more dollars for the best materials. I see some LJ's spend many hours on a project out of firewood or pallet wood. Why? At the other end of the spectrum, it's not much of a stretch to invest $200 or even more in a 8" x 11" box for veneer, locks, hinges, lining, and the like. Why? Obviously, we may not choose to make our shop cabinets out of walnut and ebony, but how about our "projects" that are not purely utilitarian? Or, is there even a difference? How do YOU decide how much to spend?


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## stevenhsieh (Jan 8, 2010)

One way to approach this is to focus on how much you can get for it. For the moment, don't think at all about what it costs to build or what the development costs were. Just focus on how much you can sell it for, through whatever sales channel you're going to use. That's really all that's important. How much can I get for it?

After you set a sales price, you can think about your costs. If your costs are higher than the sales income, you don't have a business.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?116573-Art-vs.-Production-Pricing-Work&p=1177243#post1177243


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## Dragonsrite (Feb 5, 2009)

Having been unemployed for a while now makes this question quite easy for me. What little cash is available I'd rather spend on tools … garage sales, antique shops, craigslist, etc. As for materials, I'm one of the pallet wood guys. Craigslist ZIP is also a good source of wood, paints & finishes and hardware also. Since I tend to like the rustic or distressed look, these sources fit my needs perfectly and cost nothing more than gas & time.


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## miles125 (Jun 8, 2007)

Remember that one fellows exotic is another fellows commonplace. So it's really a misnomer to think that expense in any way reflects a material's worthiness of being used.


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## sbryan55 (Dec 8, 2007)

Roger, I just do what the boss tells me. If she wants a project out of cherry then I make it out of cherry. My wife is a firm believer that you "can't take it with you" so she just says do it and don't worry about the how much the wood/hardware is going to cost.

This works pretty well when I want to buy a new tool but she uses the same philosophy when *she* buys clothes, purses and shoes. Even after 34 years I still can't understand why a woman needs 30+ purses and a closet full of shoes.


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## Jeff28078 (Aug 27, 2009)

I think it develops over time as your skill improves and your knowledge of woods improves. I'd hate to spend a lot of money on an exotic if I'm trying out a new technique. Too much room for error. If you make something and you really like how it turned out you can always build another the way you want and donate the other to a friend, relative or charity or keep it to compare. The second time around you might even improve something to make it even better.


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## bigike (May 25, 2009)

Me I just have allot of stuff in my shop and as I'm doing a project this is when i decide to in corp something into it. When I go shopping at rockler or any other woodworking store this is when i figure out what to get or what I want to get never having a project in mind. It's like I stock things and if I think it will look good on a project I throw it in and try to restock it later. I have a big box of ebony I got real cheap, about 50 1"x 3/4" brass hinges different shape mirrors like oval, round, square, 20 different song playing music movements. I need to stock up on lid stays ( brass chain ) right now I have a few feet of the brass chain used for like a drain plug with some ends to hold it on the box. So I guess you can say I have it in stock as far as wood goes I get allot from work off the pallets cherry,white/red oak,maple,sycamore,walnut and some of these woods are either spalted, or just have a very exotic looking grain pattern to it so it looks very expensive. i also get MDF and multi ply and regular plywood all for free. If I sell one of my boxes it's all profit for me to go and buy more stock. Sorry for rambling on hope this clears things up a bit.


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## Finn (May 26, 2010)

I started making small (24" long) trunks a few years ago. I designed them myself and have made many changes,over time,on them. I started making them of 2"x4"s and stained them in different ways. I have made, and sold, over 40 of them now. The first 20 or so of this fir and pine but now make them of better woods. Eastern red cedar mostly. I started out working with pallet wood years ago, but now buy all of my wood. 
I learned a lot from pine and pallets.


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## Dez (Mar 28, 2007)

If I understand your question correctly I would have to say;

I do not really made a decision based on labor vs. material costs. 
I make a decision on materials and labor based on the type of project - i.e. - shop fixture, decorative, gift, commission *OR* personal *and* longevity (temp or permanent) as well as the look desired etc.

I've never gotten very big pieces from "pallet wood" or found materials but I have found some very beautiful stuff that was used in some very high end projects. 
Pallet wood and found materials doesn't always equate to low quality only low initial cost in my book, the Kauri wood from New Zealand being one example of found wood. I have seen pallets made of Oak, Purple Heart and various other exotics.

Some of the things I've made and the materials I used were based solely on what I had on hand - case in point, the pistol case I recently finished. The spalted Alder, Cherry and Bloodwood I already had on the "rack".


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Depends on what I am making. I used soft wood for my grandson's swords out of respect for my dau-in-law's furniture ) I use top quality walnut or maple for gunstocks. It is not really an issue of labor vs cost, but I do understand that you are geting at. Many of the scrap or pallet conversions are by LJs with limited resources. Do you have more time than money or more money that time?


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## Gregn (Mar 26, 2010)

As a hobbyist I don't think in terms of cost in labor, as its time spent in the shop enjoying something I love to do.
Since the majority of my lumber has been free. I tend to use what I have on hand. Most of my learning came from pine and southern yellow pine. I've just begun using hardwoods and learning the difference between species in working and finishing them. I do think about material cost when it comes to hardware and lumber I don't have on hand for a particular project I want to make.
I do have a pet project that I'm designing using oak and walnut as the primary woods with some exotic woods for some inlay work that I want to try doing. For this project there is no cost consideration because its a pet project.
If I were considering selling a project I would have to see what the market was willing to bear for the project and decide what materials I would use and how much labor was involved. If its a quick project I might spend more for materials, or if it was more time consuming go with less expensive materials.


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## RogerBean (Apr 25, 2010)

Thanks all for your thoughts.

It's not so much that I "calculate" the labor cost of a project, but I am aware of the amount of time a project will probably involve. Last year, talking to Andrew Crawford, the great box maker, I asked him about the cost of materials he used. His reply is something I have thought about frequently since. He said: "If you consider the amount of time you spend, the cost of the materials is a very small part of the total". Admittedly, the cost of his boxes is really high, but his comment got me to thinking. I am attracted to projects that tend to involve a lot of time. Is he right?... even if I'm not selling the product?

I find myself going more and more in his direction, which is, I guess, what prompted this thread. Your comments above are representative of our differing goals in the projects we undertake. And that's as it should be. I find that as I reach for more and more complex projects, that materials cost becomes less a factor. Perhaps Topamax has it on the mark… it's a matter of what your're building. But, I do still, ponder the question.

Roger


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## cabs4less (Nov 2, 2010)

I just ran into that issue myself when designing my new book case. I wanted to use cherry and i had a very simple contemporay design but the more i looked at the sketch-up model i got bored whith and started adding raised panels and glass door etc. Then i realized i could nt afford to build it lol so whiched to poplar and mdf and then started playing around with distressed paint samples. So In my mind I want to have furniture built out of nice hardwoods but i also want interesting designs and molding so i opt for decent quality wood and extrvagant designs Plus I have more fun building fancy stuff than looking at fancy wood lol


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

The price of hardwood is what kept me form building our furniture when we were young and didn't have any. Plus LOML didn't want to wait for eons for it ;-))


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## fernandoindia (May 5, 2010)

Hi all there,

I am a hobbyist as Greg, so time spent in the shop is my payment. 
Also I am a newcomer. I cut my first piece of wood back in Feb 2009.

A lot of times I find myself choosing cheaper wood, since any project I would start, is a beginner´s one, and is part of my learnig curve. My thought was in the same line that Jeff stated: "If everything comes out great, I can make a second one with nicer wood". (This proved to be wrong in my case).

But when time came to spend on hardware, hinges, stays, etc, I found that such were pretty much more expensive than the lumber used. So, even I bought a lot of such hardware, as Ike said. But I am prevented to use it, since the wood of the project is not good enough.

That is why I also bought some quite good pieces of wood, for starting to use the hardware. Some 6 kilos of ebony @ US$50/k, walnut, maple, teak, between US$18 and US$ 30 bf.

Now the problem is still too many mistakes in my projects, that do not merit using such kind of woods. So neither the brass hardware.

And more specifically to Roger´s point, I do also find myself involved in projects that require a lot of time, not because the complexity of them, but of my lack of knowledge. I don´t only measure twice, but also cut twice, glue twice, finish twice….

Thank you for your beatiful boxes.

Take care

I hope to start soon using my nicer woods.


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## CiscoKid (Jul 14, 2010)

I spend what I can afford at the time. If I see a really spectacular piece of timber I will buy it regardless of cost - even if I have no idea what I will do with it. Some of these pieces rest in my basement for years before being taken out to the shop for resawing or planing. I still have some old 8/4 live edge slabs of walnut and cherry down there that I just had to have at the time. One day I will figure out what to do with them. I made friends with a local lumber dealer and even work for him for free occassionally. For this, he lets me look through his "shorts" pile and I get some bargains on stuff that he felt wasn't good enough for the racks. This is a hobby. It is for my personal enjoyment. How much do others spend on their hobbies? I try to keep it in perspective.


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## teejk (Jan 19, 2011)

depends! I spent way too much time on a small mission style table from an old cherry beam (checked/cracked/twisted) but it came out beautiful (worm holes/tracks intact!). On the other hand, I learned the hardway to avoid cheap lumber (e.g. Home Depot pine). Nothing more frustrating than to do a table glue-up and see that the boards simply don't want to lie flat when they come out of the clamps.

I currently have a 14' 10"x10" chestnut beam from an old farm house waiting for me to do something with. I'm sure it will be yet another labor of love. For other stuff like oak tables, I prefer to pay a little more for straight/flat/stable stock so I can bang the project out faster.


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## shipwright (Sep 27, 2010)

I enjoy the challenge of working with what I can find locally, cheaply and making the wow factor by the "value added" route of technique, design and imagination. I will use a small amount of more exotic material, but usually I'll resaw it into veneer and make a little go a long way. I like to grain match, dye and exercise some creativity to make lesser materials shine. In short I'd rather get compliments for my design and woodworking skills than for the beautiful materials I used. This is not meant as a criticism of anyone who uses fine materials, not at all, just what turns my personal crank.


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## rivergirl (Aug 18, 2010)

I have no real money available to purchase wood and to be honest I have never purchased any wood (other than for house reno's/construction.) So, for building my furniture et al I use only free wood. That means I utilize "repurposed" wood, pallet wood and slabs from the lumbermill burn piles. I have gotten some rather nice wood for free and at this juncture considering my talent/ability level I find that using free wood is the (only) way to go. And for the record, I have sold nearly everything I have made from all that free junky wood. LOL However, if you can afford exotic woods and want to use them for all your projects then I say use them and have fun making all that sawdust.


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## woodrookieII (Feb 9, 2011)

The word "depends" is used frequently in the previous replies, and rightly so. I don't think there's any "code" that we follow, but more like "guidelines". And the primary guideline is "What do YOU want to make it out of?".

That's were we meld our craftsmanship and our artisan parts together.

Just like when cabs4less sketched up his bookcase and was going to use cherry, but then his artisan side really took ahold of him and before he knew it he had raised panels and glass doors. Changed his entire direction.

I will sometimes ask folks what they would make this or that out of, but ultimately I get to decide. And it may be none of what was suggested. OR, it may a combination of theirs and my ideas because it was something I would have never thought of.

But it's still my call.

So RogerBean, if it's your project, it's your call.

....rookieII


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## Pete_Jud (Feb 15, 2008)

I use mostly free wood, but a few months ago, I drove 850 miles round trip to spend a couple hundred bucks on just 2 boards. Also had to pay for a night in a motel. I don't do many things for sale, but this was for Xmas presents for the kids and grand kids.


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## beckerswoodworks (Dec 26, 2009)

Everybody will probobly hate me for this but since I generally have a lot more money than time I pretty much buy whatever I want without much regard for price.


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## tyskkvinna (Mar 23, 2010)

I'm not confident enough in my woodworking skills to spend serious cash on any lumber, yet. I'm looking forward to when I am-there's things I want to make!  But for now I'm fine with using scrap wood, cheap wood and found wood to play around and then I don't feel bad if I make firewood instead of something great.


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## itsmic (Nov 11, 2009)

Very intriguing question and answers, I am new to woodworking and have primarily focused on box making, I am not driving my truck any more so, money is definitely a big factor, but, is, as stated above, not the only one. I would lean toward the idea of, each project presents it's own material and labor requirements, as time has passed and expertise has improved, I am looking at more expensive hardware and woods to compliment the improvements in the quality of my work. I think that there is a correlation between the two. I have primarily used pallet wood, and some inexpensive rock maple I got, and both look great, some of that pallet wood amazes me, I have found some exotic wood in pallets as well, and a good amount of very fine figured hard woods. All the answers above I think are very legitimate, and I think it is great that we all can enjoy working with wood and making projects that make life better for us and those we share with. Thanks for sharing


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## ohiogary (Feb 22, 2011)

This is a very interesting thread, and it crosses my mind quite frequently, I saw and dry all my hardwood, which helps out on the cost of projects, but the labor is where it hurts. I just finsihed building a ash computer desk, consisted of one cabinet, with one raised panel door and smaller drawer above door, second cabinet consisted of two file cabinets, The top was 24inchs widex62inchs long solid ash. I had to purchase 2 sheets of plain sliced veneer plywood, cost 95.00 per sheet, 2 euro hinges 6slides, stain, finish, sanding belts, sanding discs, I know I had 230.00 in project. Charged her 650.00 for the desk, I probally didnt make minimum wage, so all I can say is it comes from the heart of enjoying woodworking.


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## Billp (Nov 25, 2006)

And now from the village idiot. I don't let money ever stop me I spend what ever I need too. i have always taken that approach all my life and the money always seem to come all most magical. if its a piece of equipment or wood I decide what I want and some how I wind up with what I invisioned. I have friends who are cheap and all there lives they scrimp and settle for second best and sure enough thats what life gives them. i also try to give like I spend and wonderful things just seem to happen. I done this all my life it works for me. Heck they are going to be throwing dirt on us soon have some fun. Change your additude and the money will come.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

Well, I'm very fortunate in the sense that we are in the moulding business because there are always odds and ends laying around left over from the different jobs and also drop. If we don't use it it will end up being covered up and might even get damaged. We are always looking for good deals on materials from other larger manufacturers as well and often buy both surplus hardwood, plywood, and hardware. We also have a retail store in our plant as well as one in a town about 20 miles away. Right now I'm using a lot of scrap basswood to teach myself how to carve.

However, if you're building something to make money you certainly have to make a profit off of your raw material and even your labor otherwise you are just fooling yourself. You have liabilities, wear and tear on your tools and equipment, your labor, electricity, and space etc. etc. etc. If all of these things are not covered then you would be better off working for someone else and pursuing woodworking as a hobby. If you work for yourself and would be getting benefits if you worked for someone else then forgoing the benefits is also a cost and must be figured in. If you worked for someone else you would be covered by workman's compensation. Obviously you will not have this insurance if you work for yourself unless you have employees. This should be figured in too because if you get hurt on your equipment then you pay for every thing. It's never easy to set up a small business and never will be.


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## Billp (Nov 25, 2006)

Roger when I said change your additude I was not talking about you I ment in general.


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## RogerBean (Apr 25, 2010)

Bill,
No problem, I understood your meaning. I started this topic because I was curious about the apparent decisions some folks take when making projects. People do things for many reasons, and I'm not judging anybody, but the reasons were somewhat beyond me. For example, spending hour upon hour building a box, then installing a set of $2.95 hinges, or using random scrap lumber. I also realize not everyone can spend unlimited amounts on their projects, but many projects that might have been great, were in actuality, quite mediocre because they chose to save $10 on materials. It has always struck me as a false economy, but that's just me.

I now just strive to build the best that I am capable of building. The extra cost of using the best materials available is actually not much, when I figure that it averages out to very little when figure all the hours of pleasure I get from the project. Cable TV costs more.

In all events, it has been instructive to hear others share their logic.

Roger


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## Billp (Nov 25, 2006)

Roger, one more thing your boxes are off the chart. That had to be so much fun going to England and studying with a master.


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