# Unhappy about Woodworkers Guild of America



## RHolcomb (Mar 23, 2010)

About 3 weeks ago, I received a DVD entitled Essential Woodworking Techniques, in the mail from Woodworkers Guild of America. I didn't order this DVD, and I have no idea why I received it. I have never signed up for anything from their website, don't have any subscriptions to any woodworking publications and I don't know how they even got my name or address unless some online company where I bought a tool sold my name to them. I haven't even watched the DVD. I put it in my library of DVD's and forgot about it. Yesterday, I received correspondence from them requesting that I either pay $13.95 to keep the DVD or return it in the product return envelope that came with the DVD which was tossed in the garbage along with all of the other envelopes, advertisements etc. that came with it by my wife as she thought it was garbage. I'm inclined to just ignore their request because I didn't ask for it in the first place and to return it will now cost me shipping charges because I don't have the return envelope. What would you do?


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## scrollgirl (May 28, 2010)

I would try to contact them and let them know your circumstances and that you shouldn't be required to spend your time or out of pocket expenses to send back something that you didn't even request. If they aren't agreeable, I would then take the matter to the Better Business Bureau. This has "Scam" written all over it. 

Sheila


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## knotheadswoodshed (Jun 14, 2012)

I would watch it,enjoy it, and forget about it…unsolicited items sent to you are "free"..I have had this happen many times with Woodworkers Journal sending me DVD's and books. You are under NO obligation to pay for or return the items.

United Postal Service Publication 300a gives the following advice regarding Unsolicited Merchandise

"A company sends you a gift in the mail - a tie, a good luck charm, or a key chain. You didn't order it. What do you do? If you're the kind of person they are looking for, you'll feel guilty and pay for it. But you don't have to. What you do with the merchandise is entirely up to you.


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## mojapitt (Dec 31, 2011)

My understanding is that if you never ordered it then you don't owe for it. However, be careful that a fight over it doesn't damage your credit report.


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## RobertT (Oct 14, 2010)

I received a set of router bits a couple years ago that I had not ordered. Sent them back and still got a dirty letter requesting payment. Keep the dvd and ignore them.


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## Moai (Feb 9, 2009)

don't waste a single second of your precious time with idiots like them.


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## joeyinsouthaustin (Sep 22, 2012)

Write a letter stating that you did not specifically solicit this DVD, and are requesting postage paid return materials in order to return it. State in the letter that you are requesting notification in writing, in 30 days, that all accounts that have been created in your name are closed, with a zero balance, and that your name is removed from their mailing list, not to send any further materials, and that if you do not receive the return materials or notices in 30 days, you will not be held liable for the return of the DVD, any future DVDs, or any accounts, charges, or others held in your name. Send signature required certified mail. Note: you are not really writing this to get the DVD returned, great if they send you a postage paid envelope, you are writing this for when this mysteriously shows up on your credit report in 1 year, and you have something to send to the credit agency to get it removed. Ironically, This may cost more than just sending back the DVD, but IMO you should follow through. They are obviously running some old school aggressive BS on ya!!


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## PittsburghTim (Jan 16, 2012)

I second Francisco's advice. Don't was a moment on it. I've received this and others and have never fallen prey to this, nor have I suffered for it. I question the quality of the product if they can send hundreds or thousands out for free, just hoping that some small percentage will bite.


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## joeyinsouthaustin (Sep 22, 2012)

Now that I have read all the other responses that were being written at the same time (It cracks me up when that happens  +1 to *sheila* on reporting it to the BBB. Another good resource for this is* Face Book* (if you do that) A simple statement "Such and such business is employing unfair practices...like this and send it to a friend" gets A LOT of traction these days. IMO FB is crack to waste your time on the computer….errr.. but not LJ's…. it is different


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## Stephenw (Nov 14, 2011)

They need more than just your name and address to damage your credit score.

As already stated, unsolicited items sent to you in the mail are free. Ignore their threats.


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## joeyinsouthaustin (Sep 22, 2012)

I have personally had unsolicited offers like this show on my credit report. They need more than just your name and address to damage your credit score They already got the information to send it with out asking…. is it that hard, in this day, to get what they need to turn it over to collections… This scam has evolved from a mail fishing scam to get the money of the few who feel they need to pay, to a vehicle to get a high pressure collections person on the phone pressuring you to give them money, with the threat of your credit score, that you don't owe them. IMHO and from experience, I would follow through with the certified letter… Even if this is not a full scam, NiP it in the bud, and protect your self right now. If you ignore it there is a smallish chance it could get messy, if you don't, there is no chance it will harm you later. In action is often interpreted as compliance by small claims court and credit agencies.


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## History (Dec 22, 2012)

I've never been impressed with Woodworkers Guild of America. They constantly want you to signup and pay for a premium membership, DVD's, etc. And I don't think much about some of the advise thats given by George, it's almost allways sales driven, and he doesn't seem to know much more then most rookies.


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## EdwardR (Mar 24, 2012)

I received the same CD and same response. I called and faxed the letter to my state attorney generals office consumer fraud division. they said ignore them and if they put a bad mark on your credit the state will prosecute. Since the state responded on my behalf i have not heard a word.

If you read the origanal letter carefuly you will see it says you do not need to respond or return the cd in a very unclear manner.

I am in pa.


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## MShort (Jan 15, 2009)

I have received that item in the past and I did not order and did not pay or return it. I have not received anything more than on reminder to pay for it and ignored that as well. They send these out in mass hoping that some will pay rather then return or ignore it. My suggestion it that if you didn't order it and don't want it, then ignore it and move on with your day or send them something and send them a bill or return notice and let's not forget the reminder notice and see how they like it.


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## tefinn (Sep 23, 2011)

When I got mine I opened it and watched it. Then put it in the return envelope and sent it back.
They had to pay postage both ways and got a used DVD back!


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## RHolcomb (Mar 23, 2010)

Well, I guess I should have Googled "Unsolicited DVD from Woodworkers Guild of America" before starting this thread. It appears that this marketing tactic has been going on for years by them! There are 20,200 results LOL. From what I've read, the video is 3 hours long and on how to build a cabinet. I might just watch it some day that I feel lazy but I'm not returning it, or responding to them in any way. Most are saying that if you acknowledge that you got it, return it or buy it, you become a "hot lead" and then get crap from all sorts of companies. I get enough junk mail as it is!


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## Manitario (Jul 4, 2010)

You should send them something and then a bill for it…


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## LukieB (Jan 8, 2012)

I also agree with Fransisco, don't waste any of your time dealing with these scam artists

Although, I also like Rob's idea^, LOL


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## gtbuzz (Sep 19, 2011)

I got one of these DVD's a while back. Kept getting letters about how I either need to pay or send it back. Ignored them all since it was unsolicited. After a few months I stopped hearing from them and never got any nasty collections letters or anything of that sort. I check my credit report a couple times a year as well and I never saw anything there either.

My advice? Ignore the solicitations. I wouldn't even spend any time sendig them a letter saying you never ordered. The solicitations will stop and they have absolutely zero legal grounds for dinging your credit report.

If anyone out there dislikes these garbage solicitations as much as I do, you should do what, ahem, a friend of mine (yeah, we'll go with that) does and just send the return envelopes back with a bunch of trash from other mailers. Just make sure there's nothing on the envelope or any other soliciation that could trace it back to you. Occasionally "my friend" will see a barcode on the back of the envelope. Those just get tossed.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

Best advise is to ignore it. For one thing, they have NO proof that you have it, so don't even contact them. If they try to force any action against you, just say "what DVD"? "I don't know what you are talking about". By not communicating with them, you won't be acknowledging that you had ever received the DVD.


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## rockindavan (Mar 8, 2011)

I got the DVD about a year ago. They will send a letter every few months reminding you of the wasted 20 minutes skipping over the low quality basic cabinet making video.


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## me5269 (Jun 19, 2012)

I got one of these last month. The return instructions tell you to put the return label in the envelope so the address is showing, remove the DVD from its case and insert it behind the return label and drop it in the mailbox. I doubt the DVD made it back to them in one piece. Haven't received any other notices from them yet, but its only been less than a month.
Mike


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## RogerInColorado (Jan 18, 2013)

I got mine from Woodworker's Journal a few years ago. I got several dunning letters. On the last one I got I wrote them a note that said if I got even one more letter from them about paying for something I didn't order, I was going to cancel my WWJ subscription. Then I sent it back in their remittance envelope. No more after that. I like the one above that gets the state attorney general involved. That creates a record that helps protect you.


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## BentheViking (May 19, 2011)

I too got it about a year ago. I called them and they told me to keep it and not pay for it…still sitting in the shrink wrap


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Sounds like they took a page from 'The Handyman Club of America" book? That bunch called once, after I told them about the BBB looking for them, .......silence on the line.

One could always mark one of their "gifts" Return to Sender/address unkown. Put it back in the mailbox.


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## REL (May 22, 2008)

Got the same DVD. Legel advice is to ignore it. Sheila wants to waste your time. The is the Guilds method of marketing; plan and simple. The BBB is not going to change their methods. Also what could they possiblly do to your credit rating?


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## pneufab (Dec 19, 2009)

I don't know about your letter, but my follow up letter CLEARLY stated that I am under no obligation to pay them anything…so I am just ignoring them. Not a bad DVD. Puts my wife to sleep in no time flat!


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## msmith1199 (Oct 24, 2012)

I had just started a new topic also because I got the same letter and DVD. I did not notice the fine print at the bottom of the letter saying you aren't obligated to pay for it. I still think this is a dirty marketing trick and may even be illegal. I'm turning my letter over to the Consumer Fraud Division of the DA's Office.


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## SamuraiSaw (Jan 8, 2013)

*"And I don't think much about some of the advise thats given by George, it's almost allways sales driven, and he doesn't seem to know much more then most rookies."*

The reality is they won't let you pull the crap there that you do here, therefore you don't like them!

There's nothing illegal about this, but the argument can certainly be made it is a less than "transparent" advertising scheme. You are never under any obligation to pay for items delivered to you without your permission or request. WWGOA is a decent organization, but I don't think they are gaining any favor with this advertising campaign.


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## crashn (Aug 26, 2011)

When you first get the dvd, watch it, put it back in the envelope, tape the envelope to a cinder block and drop it off at the post office. That will cost them an arm and a leg in return postage and at that point they have an incentive to take you off the mailing list!


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## dairygoat (Dec 17, 2013)

Essential woodworking techniques video


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## NorthSummitWW (Feb 22, 2012)

I find myself in the same situation but I'm going to to ignore, I didn't request the dvd or anything else from them. The dvd isn't that bad actually but isn't that great either and I believe a lot of the stuff on it can be found for free on YouTube. They sent it to me and they can come after me for the $13 or whatever it is if they want.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

This is a MARKETING SCHEME. I have had this very same thing occur to me with regards to an astronomy DVD. The funny thing is that the "company" wanted me to REMOVE the DVD from the protective sleeve and send ONLY the DVD (unprotected) back in the envelop. BINGO! Scam alert!


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## msmith1199 (Oct 24, 2012)

This is actually an old thread. If you read the fine print on the letter it clearly says you aren't obligated to send the DVD back or pay for it. This is called misleading advertising techniques. Even if Wood Working Guild of America had some product I wanted to buy, I would not buy it from them simply because of the advertising techniques they use. Hopefully everybody else does the same and they learn their lesson, but it must work for them because they keep doing it.


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## RHolcomb (Mar 23, 2010)

I started this thread nearly a year ago. I took everyone's advice and just ignored their request for money and they stopped trying after a few attempts. Chris P is right. It isn't a bad video but all of what's in it can be found on youtube. Pretty much anything you have interest in can be found on youtube these days so just keep the video and toss any correspondence they send you.


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## MalcolmLaurel (Dec 15, 2013)

I used to take any unsolicited junk mail that included a return envelope and send it back, adding anything and everything that would fit in the envelope, not including anything containing my address.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Yup, don't try to unner'stan'itz cuz… Jest chit-can-it… May beee it wasn't comzz baakz!


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## pmayer (Jan 3, 2010)

I write articles for the WWGOA web site, and through this work I have gotten to know the WWGOA team pretty well over the years. The marketing approach is to provide a free sample and hope that you like it so you will sign up. I think it is unusual at first to send out your actual product for free and hope that someone will pay for it, but apparently they find that people are more likely to sign up for the series if they have a firsthand experience with the product. It is an unorthodox approach, but it is not a scam. As pneufab pointed out, the letter states that you don't have to pay them anything. Even after someone signs up for the series, any individual DVD can be returned even after it is viewed fur a full refund. Ever try to do that with a DVD anywhere else? In their DVD series they have produced some of the best techniques focused content for beginning/intermediate woodworkers that I have ever seen. My father has learned a lot from the DVDs and the focused training was invaluable to him as he began woodworking at age 75 and we started Vern's Wood Goods (vernswoodgoods.com). I also watch the videos with my son so that I am confident that he is receiving instruction from a formally trained shop instructor in addition to the guidance that I provide since I am self taught. Like many public schools, his does not have a woodshop program so WWGOA can help fill this void. George Vondriska is a phenomenal craftsman who has been teaching woodworking at various schools (including his own) for years, and for the past five years he has committed nearly all of his time to producing content for this DVD series. I believe that he has now produced over 75 DVDs. They shoot these videos with a producer full camera and crew, and they are editing by professionals as well. This is a high quality product; well organized, excellent guided instruction. The DVD series is now also endorsed and promoted by Wood Magazine as well as Woodcraft. They also provide a ton of free content on their web site, both video and written content. Many of their stories are written by some of the same writers who develop stories for Woodworkers Journal, American Woodworker, Family Handyman, and other magazines where you would pay for similar content that you find for free on WWGOA.com. Just as with a print magazine, there are tool reviews, project plans, tip/technique articles, reader tips, etc. It's all original, and it's free. So, I hope that you can look at the whole offering and recognize that WWGOA is bringing a lot of value to our community. It is a business, like a magazine or any other product, so yes they want to sell something. But they invest heavily into developing a great educational product, and with all due respect its not a scam. I wish more companies in the woodworking field would send me a free sample of their product that I can keep with no obligation.


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

I know that I can keep any unsolicited materials I receive in the mail. And I have seen that in the fine print. But why are there only two options given here ((1) pay for the DVD and sign up to get more or (2) return the DVD)?

Who receives something unwanted and keeps both the item and return envelope in case the sender asks for it back in a few weeks?


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## msmith1199 (Oct 24, 2012)

pmayer, the problem is the fine print and the way they word the letter. I'm a retired criminal investigator who worked in a prosecutors office and worked consumer fraud cases, and I didn't even catch the fine print at first. That is the problem with this technique. If you want to send out a free product for people to sample then I"m all for it. In my woodworking business I give out free stuff quite often. The difference is my stuff is free and I don't try and trick people into later paying for it with confusing letters and hidden fine print.


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## msmith1199 (Oct 24, 2012)

And the letter that ChuckV posted doesn't even appear to have the fine print! This is crooked business in my opinion.


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## Chuck41 (Nov 24, 2011)

I received the same DVD - George is a real hard nosed loser - they hounded me for the return of the DVD which does not have to be legally returned. His premium videos are not worth the money - I stayed for too years hoping for something good and finally cancelled. Stay away from the guy. He just doesn't get it.


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## Chuck41 (Nov 24, 2011)

err.. let's make that Two years!!


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Chuck, it could also be that you left the "many" out…


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## tefinn (Sep 23, 2011)

Good call LakeLover.

Have you ever read any of the articles on the WWGOA web site? They don't use paragraphs over there either.


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## LakeLover (Feb 2, 2013)

Tefinn

I am deslexic and spelling and grammer were hard to master. ( still).

When doing essays or proposals. I get my wife or a friend to proof read.

So when I read something from a pro writer and it is full of typo's. Run on sentences etc. I truly doubt the ability of the writer.

Some of this digital media is dumbing people down. But you still have to make it readable.

It check out the site.

Happy Holidays


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## Tennessee (Jul 8, 2011)

Exact same thing happened to me. I watched maybe the first three-five minutes of it, determined it was for absolute beginners, and ignored it. Three notices later, (somewhat threatening, but not really), I just kept throwing them into the shredder. I also threw away the DVD. After three, they finally gave up on that one but got another about 9 months later. Same thing all over again. Totally unsolicited, don't send them a dime.


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## pmayer (Jan 3, 2010)

I apologize for the poorly constructed post. I will admit that it was a bit "stream of conscious". OK, it was a LOT "stream of conscious". 

Peace.


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## macgee (Dec 1, 2013)

Well things haven't changed much but it appears Woodcraft is also involved sharing your personal information with Woodworkers guild. Here's a recent article posted recently. Not too cool!

http://toolguyd.com/woodworkers-guild-of-america-woodcraft-dvd/


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## Knothead62 (Apr 17, 2010)

Chuck41 us correct. If you didn't order it, you are not liable to pay for it. They would have no contract or information stating that you ordered the DVD. 
We had a deal buying cassette tapes (long ago, huh?). We let it expire. We then started getting bills for tapes of Gangsta Rap. We told the people that we didn't order them Evidently, someone was intercepting our mail and ordering under out account. They didn't charge us for but did thank us for the past business.


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## TheDane (May 15, 2008)

WWGOA is, in my opinion, just a different version of a book club.

I made the mistake of signing up a few years ago … I kept a few of the videos but returned most. Taking them to the PO was a PITA.


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## bigblockyeti (Sep 9, 2013)

I really like the idea of taping the DVD to a cinderblock and sending it back, postage on them. If any company is sending you garbage and enough people are taking that level of initiative to return their junk in the most expensive way, they'll get the message pretty quick!


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## BillPA1 (Feb 22, 2013)

Went through something similar with them though they sent me several DVD's and not just one. I finally told them to stop sending them and a they still sent more. Like you, I did not have the return envelopes for all of them. I sent back as many as I could. I can only remember watching the first video, which wasn't bad as far as woodworking videos go. From what I gather what WWGOA does is not illegal unless they demand payment with threats etc…


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## cutworm (Oct 2, 2010)

Do honest businesses exist any more? I signed up for a "good deal" on Woodcraft Magazine for one year. Got 3 issues. Cable TV and dish providers are among my favorite to hate…......


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

This is why I *always *use a fictitious first name, like my pet's name, or intentionally misspell my last name, making it just unique enough that I'll know exactly who it was that sold me out to other marketers. In my case, it was a woodworking trade show, a vendor put an item I wanted on backorder… and other items started arriving to Mr Ginger Wxxxxxx. Well, just maybe my cat ordered them, but not likely.


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## pauljuilleret (Nov 16, 2013)

this is how I handle most junk mail I get say I get a letter from a lending company I take the return address envelope and stuff every thing they sent me into it then I will ad till it's crammed full adds from other home centers and what ever other crap that came that day and sent it back to them as they have to pay postage due to their envelope being pre- paid it winds up costing them more due to the excess weight. just a little get even but after some time of me doing this this type of junk mail has slowed down s bunch


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## Disneytodd (Aug 17, 2014)

I never got the DVDs and they keep sending letter wanting money. What a joke.


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## KellyB (Mar 1, 2015)

Here's the definitive answer:
https://postalinspectors.uspis.gov/investigations/mailfraud/fraudschemes/othertypes/unsolicitedfraud.aspx

Sender beware.


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## dhazelton (Feb 11, 2012)

I got an unsolicited package in the mail of a little bottle of cleaner packaged by mentally retarded folks in a home (supposedly). If I wanted to keep it I was supposed to send them a check. There was no mention of if I didn't want to keep it. Then I got a bill a month later for it. I ignored it. Then I got MORE cleaning product and I took it back to the post office and refused it. Then I got a letter from a collections agency. I went on to the BBB site and filled out a report (this company or person had a LOT of complaints) and they had 90 days to respond. Of course they never did. In my mind filing a complaint with the BBB is a huge waste of time, they are an old dog with no teeth and no bite.


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

> Here s the definitive answer:
> https://postalinspectors.uspis.gov/investigations/mailfraud/fraudschemes/othertypes/unsolicitedfraud.aspx
> 
> Sender beware.
> ...


See the last paragraph of the link provided above:
If you are aware of violations of the federal law prohibiting the mailing of unordered merchandise, or if you have personally had difficulty with such items-especially if you are sent statements demanding payment for the merchandise-you should contact you local postmaster or the nearest Postal Inspector.


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## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

Do not contact them in any way or do not return unsolicited items. These people are known scammers and once they determine you are a real person they will harass you forever.

Keep it and forget them.


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## htl (Mar 24, 2015)

Thanks!!!
Ron for the info we need to handle this with out a minute wasted.


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## Yonak (Mar 27, 2014)

This guy (from Woodworker's Guild of America) was spamming this site with "helpful hints", all directed back to his operation (and his pocketbook) until it was pointed out to Cricket.


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## JeffP (Aug 4, 2014)

OH! When I saw this topic come up I was VERY surprised. Couldn't believe the friendly and informative Marc Spagnuolo would stoop to such a level.

Then I went and looked closer. Woodworker's Guild NOT EQUAL Wood Whisperer's Guild !!!

I wonder if Marc knows that people wind up confusing him with those other yucky scoundrels?


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## HornedWoodwork (Jan 28, 2015)

I had the exact same thing happen to me. I ignored it, they went away. They are bottom feeding scum, and their methods to build cabinets suck. Use it for skeet shooting and you'll have gotten everything to get out of that DVD.


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## TheGeekPub (Oct 29, 2015)

They also make complete ripoff videos of other YouTube channels/creators, including their designs and plans. I don't normally get upset when someone copies one of my projects on YouTube. But WWGOA is making money by ripping off others creations.

I highly recommend to any woodworker to never visit their page, and to unlike/hide their page on Facebook and their channel on YouTube.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Do not waste your time on the private entity known as the Better Business Bureau [BBB]. It takes a hell of a lot to get a bad report from them, and good reports come with membership.

Instead of complaining to a non-starter, complain to the U.S. Postal Service, for a demand for money not owed. Those who say you do not own for unsolicited things received by mail are correct.

You can also complain to the Federal Trade Commission [FTC]. They do act on complaints of acts done via the U.S. Mails and wires.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Oops it should have been "do not owe." You are not obligated to return unsolicited mailings DIRECTED AT YOU.

When forming complaints, make clear the U.S. Mails and/or wires (i.e., phone, net) were used.


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## Yonak (Mar 27, 2014)

This guy who heads up the Woodworkers Guild of America, George Vondriska, and his toadies, are lowlifes. He's a predator who preys on people who don't understand their rights and uses cheap deceptive tactics to get people to pay for things they don't want and never asked for.


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## dalepage (Feb 6, 2016)

Keep it. Don't spend any time responding. Period.


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## Planeman40 (Nov 3, 2010)

The law says if you are sent any mail or package you did not request you are not obligated to pay for it or return it. I'm not a lawyer but I have read this. You may want to confirm.


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## redalert714 (3 d ago)

History said:


> I've never been impressed with Woodworkers Guild of America. They constantly want you to signup and pay for a premium membership, DVD's, etc. And I don't think much about some of the advise thats given by George, it's almost allways sales driven, and he doesn't seem to know much more then most rookies.


 Agreed, and they’re still at it. Less than 60 days and I’m getting $9 back on my subscription.


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