# Air Cleaner Questions



## jgt1942 (Mar 25, 2013)

Lately I've been turning very dry Mesquite and it has generated a LOT of DUST! The entire shop (2-car garage) has dust on everything. Thus I decided it was time to try and resolve this issue. Currently the lathe dust is my major issue. BTW when sanding a turned piece very fine dust is created. I have another project on the list to help with this. 
My first thought is to put a curtain around the lathe area. In the following image the view is looking down directly over the lathe.









I'm going to run a 12' piece of 3/4" conduit from point A and B 6' out, bend 90 degrees and then go toward the center of the area. At the center I will have about 1' overlap. The pipe will be hanging from the 10' ceiling. The curtain, clear HD plastic will slide along the pipe thus I can push each side toward point A & B when the lathe is not being used. The pipe will be attached to the wall at point A & B, at the bend I'll have a bracket that attaches to the inside of the bend (this is the current plan) and then to the ceiling and at the end of the pipe where they overlap I'll have a rigid mount to the ceiling. Thus the pipe will be hanging about 3-6" from the ceiling.
The hooks for the curtain will look something like the following.









At this time I have not decided on the plastic for the curtain or how close it will come to the floor. Any thoughts?
Basically when the curtain is closed the area will be about 6' x 11" or 66 SQ FT If I multiply by 10 (the ceiling height) I have about 660 cubic feet.

Obviously I need something to clean the air in this area. When turning I do wear my Trend Airshield and per Trend the filters are good for 0.6 microns. Thus I'm reasonably safe but I want better and the curtain will go a long way to contain the dust and turnings to this area but not clean the air in the area.

I did a reasonable amount of research and very quickly realized that if I want a really good air cleaner it was going to cost a lot! One quote was $2500. Cost for me is a major issue.

I've look at simple box fans with HEPA filters (MERV 13-15) and this is a quick simple solution and would be as good as the $2500 system but I wanted to step it up a bit. So I picked up a couple of furnace blowers from a local HVAC shop. He was happy to just give them to me and I was like a kid in a candy shop that was just told I could have anything I wanted.









As soon as I got home I tested both units, they worked on all three speeds and measured one of the identical units.









My first thought was to install each blower in a box similar to the following.









I then looked at the Bill Pentz and saw what he did using the Wynn Nano filter. Note he is pulling the air through the filter.









And I thought, why not use the furnace blower with a Wynn filter as follows









BTW this unit will be mounted above the door near point A.
*
Finally the question, I'm looking for suggestions and need your feedback*
I've thought of some different designs
1) mount the assembly using a metal frame to hold the blower assembly and filter. Obviously I need some form of adaptor to connect the filter to the blower and need to block off one side of the squirrel cage. If blocked off I don't know what this would do to the air flow.
2) mount the blower assembly in a box and attach the filter to the box. This would not require blocking off one side of the squirrel cage.
3) If I mount the unit where the blower was near the back wall and the filter near the bend in the pipe, this would force the air exiting to blow along the back wall forcing circulation in the area when the curtain is closed. If the curtain is open then the air would go along the wall, hit the door on the right (BTW behind the door is my air compressor) and then just wrap out into the shop.

Currently I have no idea what the CFM of the blowers are, again they are 3 speed and all three speeds work. They do start to get a bit loud as the speed goes up. I'll have to measure and see what the actual levels are. Possibly if the blower assembly is in a box, it would reduce the noise a bit.

I don't know what sound proofing I could install that would reduce the noise.
I don't know what speed I need to run the blower at to get the air cleaned.

BTW I will be on the road a couple of weeks thus my internet access will be hit and miss until I return home.


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## ClammyBallz (Apr 16, 2015)

What's the HP on the motor? You can usually get a cfm range from that.


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## TraylorPark (Jan 9, 2014)

I can tell you that one of those units will easily clean the air in your shielded area, and both will get the whole shop done. I have one furnace blower in my shop, 20×20, and when I got it set up I tested it by turning the leaf blower on inside the shop to get as much dust in the air as possible. For the test I had the air cleaner exhausting out the back door, because that's how I use it in the summer. Before I turned on the air cleaner I had dust so thick in the air it looked like a Smokey Mountain Morning, and within 3 minutes that air was clean as could be. The results drop a little when the filters are on and recirculating the air within the shop, but it still works great, maybe about 10 minutes on dirty filters to get the air scrubbed.


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## Wondermutt (Jan 21, 2016)

I can't help you with the cfm, but I did the same thing with a plastic divider between the wood production area and the finishing area. With that make sure you get sheeting that is static proff. What I mean is that if you use a poly that does not have esd protection, you will have issues with the dust collecting on the curtain and constant static discharge akin to dragging your feet across the floor and touching a door handle.

I ordered mine from a welding supply house .

I have two of the filter units like you are trying to build and they work great for my 40×80 ft shop. I did not use the Wynn filter but instead hepa and prefilters that can be sourced from the home center. I have to replace the prefilters every week and the hepa about once a month.

Good luck

WM


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## bigJohninvegas (May 25, 2014)

The curtain really isn't necessary if you are going to get or build an air cleaner. 
I am using a home built air cleaner, and all my friends have store bought versions.
Mine is a single speed with a timer switch, and works just as well as the store models.


























I don't have the specs on my blower motor, but I believe it is a bit smaller than what you have pictured, and this little air cleaner keeps my 3 car garage/shop spotless. Even when I forget to turn it on and it gets a little cloudy in here. Hit the switch and within a couple minutes it's clean clear air.
Here is a link to a project by OldKranky. He has a link to the same plans I used to build mine. 
http://lumberjocks.com/projects/59540
I used a standard filter size that also matches the jet and PM filters. I think 12X20 range. I had planned to buy the washable filter that the jet uses, but both cost of that filter, and seeing how well the 3 filter system worked. I have left it as the plans intended. 
Good luck


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## clin (Sep 3, 2015)

I agree that one of the blowers shown is likely large enough to do your whole shop. But no air cleaner will keep a shop free of dust. Away from the cleaner, the air speeds are slow enough that the dust can still settle out. And there are always eddies and dead spots with little air movement.

Unless you're going to have the equivalent of a leaf blower blasting all the surfaces (keeping the air stirred up), no single air cleaner is going to get all the dust. So I still think your curtain has merit for containing the dust.

Keep in mind that this curtain doesn't need to be plastic or air tight. With little pressure from one side to the other, there will be very little air movement through it, so even a basic fabric would work fine.

I key thing about these cleaners is to have the intake as near the dust source as possible. Again, because the air speeds slow considerable just a few feet from the filter.

As to the filter itself, the one you show from Bill Pentz is not a shop filter, but one he uses in his house (I think). Therefore it is only exposed to fine dust and is not a bulk filter. I think these fine filters are best used as a second stage filter.

I've seen some examples where people make (or modify) a room filter using common furnace filters on the intake side, and a Wynn on the exhaust side. That way the Wynn doesn't get clogged with large dust particles, that a cheap filter can easily trap. I think the experience was the Wynn might rarely need cleaning (yearly or less).

I have a Jet room filter, and this is something I'm thinking I might do someday.


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## jgt1942 (Mar 25, 2013)

WOW what great feedback. I'm still up in the air (no pun intended) as to the traditional box or the Bill Pentz method.

Regarding the traditional box, why hang it from the ceiling? Why not just mount it to the ceiling? Vibrations should not be an issue after all when the blower is installed in the furnace it is mounted to the furnace which is mounted to the house frame.

I loosened one of the motors and confirmed that it is 1/2 HP, I'll assume the other is the same. AMPS 7.3, RPM 1075/4 speed (I only tested three speeds) Model K55HXENV-0115.









I have an app on my phone to measure the dB level and for this test this is good enough. I do have a separate mic that is better but I did not use it. Following are my results.









Regarding the curtain, I need it for two reasons
1) Keep all/major portion of the dust and turnings in the area of the lathe. Currently after a turning session I will have dust and pieces of wood 25 feet away toward the garage doors on the opposite end of the shop. I'm often turning tree branches/trunks with the bark on the wood. Often the bark becomes loose and goes flying. 
2) Stop flying objects from flying across the shop. More times than I care to admit I will get a catch and the wood goes flying. I recently had a 12" platter I was working on break into 9 pieces and some made it all the was to the front of the garage (my lathe is in the back right corner of my garage/shop). Also sometime when a crack is uncovered this will cause the wood to break and fly.

I'm really impressed by the cleanness some of you have reported, this is very encouraging. In one of the other thread I saw last night it was suggested to use a flashlight at night with the DC running to see how much dust was in the beam of the flashlight. It is MUCH easier to see the dust using this method. Following is my post in the thread (see the entire thread at http://lumberjocks.com/topics/49041#reply-2744578)

This seems like a really good idea. It is now 0034 hours and I gave it a try. Before I turned on my DC I used the flashlight to see if any dust was moving in the air and could see none. When I first turned on the DC immediately I could see dust in the light beam and then I noticed that there was a lot of air coming from the motor on the DC and then realized that air was being drawing through the motor for cooling. I then concentrated on the top bag and could see a very small amount of dust in the beam, however I'm not sure if the dust was from the bag or the air going through the motor.
I do have a Thien baffle (Tophat) that removes about 96% of whatever is going through it. The air then goes through the DC impeller and then into the bag. Because I also turn wood and have been turning very dry Mesquite my shop is covered with dust. I'm in the process of trying to determine what I want to do for an air cleaner.
**
Obviously I will use this simple test as I move forward with the air cleaners. Because I have two blowers and almost 1,000 sq feet in the shop I will use both.


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## clin (Sep 3, 2015)

> I m really impressed by the cleanness some of you have reported, this is very encouraging.
> - jgt1942


I would temper your expectations as far as how clean this will keep your shop. I think people have very different ideas of what clean means. I run my Jet filter anytime I'm making dust and often when I'm simply in the shop. As moving around the shop kicks up dust. However, I have a black tool chest, and it clearly shows a build up on it.

My shop is also small at about 300 sq ft, so it's not like the filter is trying to work a large area.

However, while they won't get it all, I think they are a great idea. But I see them as sort of 50/50 as far as cleaning the air from a specific dust event vs keeping the air clean by constantly running it.

Keep in mind that in clean rooms (like where they make computer chips), they don't just clean the air and call it good, they are running filtered air through the rooms non-stop. And in those cases, virtually the entire ceiling is incoming clean air and the entire floor the exhaust vent for the room.

We of course are not trying to get to those levels of clean, but the same principles apply.

Here's a link to a Stumpy Nubs video showing how he converted his Jet room filter to use a Wynn.


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## ClammyBallz (Apr 16, 2015)

You're gonna have to put the blower in a box. It pulls air from both sides and will not work like you anticipate. The pentz design you show is using an inline duct fan, not a squirrel cage blower like you have.


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## jgt1942 (Mar 25, 2013)

> You re gonna have to put the blower in a box. It pulls air from both sides and will not work like you anticipate. The pentz design you show is using an inline duct fan, not a squirrel cage blower like you have.
> 
> - ClammyBallz


This was as I suspected, thanks for the confirmation.


> Here's a link to a Stumpy Nubs video showing how he converted his Jet room filter to use a Wynn.
> -Clin


Much thanks for the link. In the link you provided Stumpy provided a link for all of his dust collection videos and such. Tons of great info. 
http://www.stumpynubs.com/dust.html

At this time I've decided to
1) box the furnace blower as suggested by ClammyBallz
2) use the Wynn 9L300NANO or equivalent. I got a great price ($124) for the 35A274NANO replacement from https://damnfilters.com/, Jim Orr is the person I've been communicating with. The 9L300NANO will be a bit easier to adapt to my furnace blower.

I'm now sorry that I will be going out of town for a couple of weeks and when I come back I have company coming thus it will be a few weeks before I can really tackle the project but in the mean time I can work on the ideas.
I just copied my Dust Collection folder (all 11 GB) from my network drive to my laptop which is going with me. This will allow me to work on things design wise while I'm on the road, time permitting.


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## jgt1942 (Mar 25, 2013)

Based on the feedback in this thread and other research I've created a concept drawing. When I get back home I'll discuss with my welder friend and see what he thinks about the metal support.









Starting on the left (current thoughts)
a) I need to close off the opening to force air to enter via the filter. For lack of a better term I'll call this the sealing plate. Not shown is a seal that will be between the wood/metal that will seal the opening closed. Also I've not identified how this will be mounted to the filter (more on this below)
b) Is the replacement filter for the Wynn 9L300NANO. Not shown is the seal between the filter and the box on the right. The size of the hole in the box will be the diameter of the opening in the filter, approx 8.5" 
c) Is angle iron that the filter will rest on. Possibly I'll have two pieces on the top in a similar fashion. I could also make some metal rings (inside diameter larger than the filter at least on the left end. The seal on this end could be attached to the metal ring. Also the sealing plate could have two eye-bolts that are attached to the ceiling to help support the weight of the unit.
d) The box that will hold the blower assembly. On each side of the blower currently I'm thinking of leaving about 6" of space between the blower and side of the box thus allowing the air from the filter to easily enter the squirrel cage. The hole in the box where the end of the filter meets the box will be the ID of the filter (or slightly larger), approx 8.5". Also on the outside of the box where the filter meets the box I need either a metal ring or metal plate that the angle iron can be welded to. This plate will be secured to the box.
The distance between the filter end and the back of the blower is about 7 3/4". I'm assuming that this is enough. It would be very easy to add more space. The overall length from the sealing plate to where the air exits the blower box is about 5' and the area I'm inserting the unit is about 11' long. I'm currently thinking of running the unit parallel to the back wall where the filter will be over the glass exit door are and the air will blow toward the door to the air compressor. I'm thinking I want the right side of the unit closer to the compressor door and I want to keep the filter over the glass door. However I need about 3' of space between the sealing plate and the curtain on the left side. For filter cleaning and filter replacement I need about 3'. I could also make the angle iron supports a bit shorter. 
e) This is my actual blower (see the image in the initial post)

To clean/replace the filter
1) remove the sealing plate
2) slip a plastic bag over the filter all the way up to the box
3) gently slide the filter away from the box and hold the bag closed. The angle iron will prevent closing the bag fully at this time
4) slide the filter and bag off of the angle iron. Because the angle iron is providing support for the filter it should slide. At some point the filter will tip completely into the bag and care must be taken to try and close the bag. At this time I'm standing on a ladder, it would be safer to use one of my movable tables to provide more secure footing.
5) The filter is now in the bag, take it outside, gently set it on the ground and remove the bag
6) Using an air compressor with a long blower pipe blow clean the filter. It will not be possible to get all of the dust out of the filter but do the best possible. Blow air on the outside of the filter as well as the inside. When blowing the inside of the filter the blower pipe should be fitted with a 90 degree tip.
7) after the filter is cleaned (air only, DO NOT use water) reinstall the filter.
7)


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## clin (Sep 3, 2015)

I question putting the fine filter on the intake. Ambient room filters collect a lot of dust and need cleaning relatively often. If you have a two stage filter, you'll still have to clean the first stage as often, but you can use a less expensive filter for that, and leave the expensive fine filter to do only what it needs to do.

Also, I don't care how careful you are, cleaning any filter is going to put wear and tear on it. So again, another reason to limit what the expensive, fine filter collects.

You've seen the example in the Stumpy Nubs video, of a common furnace filter on the input and a fine filter on the output. The blower isn't going to be affected very much by air carrying fine dust.

That's the way I'd approach it unless there was a compelling reason not to do it that way.


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## ClammyBallz (Apr 16, 2015)

It would be fine if he boxed it in and put furnace filters on the sides. But it seems like a lot of effort when you could use the bag filters for much less money and build it like a jet or delta air filter. 
http://wynnenv.com/products-page/ambient-filter-pricing/122412vb/

You could mount 2 of the bags in a 2'x2' box and easily swap them out in 10 seconds when you need to replace them. Merv 8 furnace filters from ace are $5, you layer those in there and the main bags won't need to be replaced as often.


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## jgt1942 (Mar 25, 2013)

If I understand the rating correctly the problem with the http://wynnenv.com/products-page/ambient-filter-pricing/122412vb/ filter is that it will pass a 1 micron particle and the filter is about a MERV 6-8, I want to stop particles as small as 0.3 microns this is a MERV of 15-16. The suggested WYNN filter has about 16 sq feet of area where as the filter I'm considering has almost 300 sq feet. Thus there is a huge difference in performance where the filter I'm considering is much better. Also with the larger capacity I can push more air through the larger (and more expensive) filter. Via the source I mentioned above I expect to pay about $125 for the filter vs $70 for the suggested WYNN.

The suggested MERV 8 filters from ACE do not meet my MERV 15-16 requirement.
Possibly I have misunderstood the spec sheets I've been looking at.


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## jgt1942 (Mar 25, 2013)

> I question putting the fine filter on the intake. Ambient room filters collect a lot of dust and need cleaning relatively often. If you have a two stage filter, you ll still have to clean the first stage as often, but you can use a less expensive filter for that, and leave the expensive fine filter to do only what it needs to do.
> 
> Also, I don t care how careful you are, cleaning any filter is going to put wear and tear on it. So again, another reason to limit what the expensive, fine filter collects.
> 
> ...


Clin, I'm attempting to follow the advice given by Bill Penz, see http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/air_cleaner.cfm 
I really want to capture the "fine" dust, e.g. down to 0.3 microns. Fir this level I need a filter with a MERV 15-16 rating. In my research I did not find any box type filters that had a MERV 15-16 rating and none had 300 sq feet of filter area.

Bill has a LOT of information on his site and because of health issues caused by dust has spent a lot of time researching, testing and refining how to properly eliminate the dust in his shop and house. In his test he does mention that at first he positioned the blower to blow air into the filter but got better results when he pulled the air through the filter.

For me the filter will be 99% (I'm estimating about $125 via my source, see previous post in this thread) of the cost and I expect for the filter to last several years.

Currently while turning I use a Trend Air Shield Pro helmet and per Trend this will remove particles as small as 0.6 microns. Sometimes I even use the helmet when using my 6×48 belt sander which generates a LOT of dust. Dust collection for this is another up coming project. My palm sander is the Mirka Ceros sander and has its' own dust collection system. BTW I highly recommend this system. I also have a hood behind my lathe which I currently connect to the shop DC but it is not very effective when sanding pieces on the lathe. I have another project in mind that will resolve this problem area but it will be a few months before I can get to it.


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## clin (Sep 3, 2015)

> Clin, I m attempting to follow the advice given by Bill Penz, see http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/air_cleaner.cfm
> I really want to capture the "fine" dust, e.g. down to 0.3 microns. Fir this level I need a filter with a MERV 15-16 rating. In my research I did not find any box type filters that had a MERV 15-16 rating and none had 300 sq feet of filter area.
> 
> - jgt1942


I'm just saying to move your fine, cylindrical filter from the intake to the exhaust side. And then add a furnace filter on the intake side. The way Stumpy Nubs shows in his video. You just transition from the rectangular output of the blower back to a round duct and then add appropriate flanges to mate the fine filter.

And I agree completely with getting down to sub-micron level.

Also, doing the DIY box means you can size the box to handle common furnace filter sizes and you could put one on up to 5 of the six sides of the box (all but the exhaust side). I don't think you probably want that many, but certainly using 2 or 3 sides of the box, for intake, would make sense. The larger the area the better.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Conversations covering fine dust seem the rage of late, or should I say again?

Before one can get into the issue of collecting fine dust, we have to determine how it is being generated. For example, when sanding using my sanding station, pictured below, holding the board at the front of the station, the dust can be seen falling from it and, rather than fall straight down, it moves toward the back of the station and down.

Without the benefit of the collector and the sanding station, sanding a board results in the dust flying in random directions at the whim of air eddies and currents unseen or felt. The larger particles can be seen floating in the air, with the right lighting.

It would seem, to me, to defy reason to assert the fine dust generated from hand sanding a board is escaping at the same time my collector is grabbing everything visible, from large chips down to barely visible fines.

Discussions reach CFM of air movement, as well as air speed. It stands to reason merely moving a million cubic feet of air over a long period would have an entirely different effect on light particles falling through the affected area than moving the same amount of air in a fraction of the time. Clearly, we need to move a lot of air, with enough speed to carry it off.

My collectors vary from a one horse Delta to a three horse Jet with two filters. The latter moves a lot of air and does it at a reasonably fast rate, thus I am able to get the effect described above, in the sanding station. Next, jump to my planer or jointer. It does well on both of them. However, that same collector doesn't hold up as well against my lathe or table saw.

Since the jointer and lathe kick wood debris off at no less velocity than and even more material than the table saw, but have their dust output better managed by the collector, the key difference in collection must be at the hood.

My lathes, like the table saw, are difficult to deal with, for purposes of collecting dust and chips. For this reason, I cut an eight inch PVC pipe ten inches long, into a C shape, plugged both ends with a piece of ply cut to that C shape, and installed a four inch port on the back. Mounted on adjustable supports, this is my collector for the lathe.

Using the lathe dust collection hood cuts the mess from turning hugely. The drier the wood, the more effective the hood. Part of this is, because the hood wraps around the turned object, focusing all the air collection there.

I could use a larger hood, like the questionable ones sold for that purpose, but, to be effective, I'd have to crank the CFM being moved, and the speed it's moved significantly.


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## jgt1942 (Mar 25, 2013)

Clin, I now understand your suggestion. Originally I though the same but after reading the finding of Bill Pentz, see http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/air_cleaner.cfm he got better results by pulling the air through the filter than pushing the air through the filter.

At this time I'mm not sure if I will push or pull the air. With the blowers I have even at low speed they will push/pull a LOT of air. If I kick them up to mid/high the amount of moving air really increases.

I agree that if I'm pushing the air through the filter then pre-filters are a real good option. Originally I planned to go this route and was going to install two pre-filters, like a coarse for filter one and then a mid-range for filter 2 and then the NANO filter.

Currently I cannot get the Wynn website to display correctly on three different PCs using either Chrome or Edge. I gave up and called and spoke to Dick Wynn who was very helpful. Basically the NANO filters are MERV 15 and than makes it super easy to understand. One of the filters I was considering (previous post in this thread) is not what I thought (I was considering something other than the Wynn). They claim (the other guys) to filter down to 0.3 microns but they have MERV 8 rating on their filter. There is no way that they can filter 0.3 particles with a MERV 8. Thus I'm back to the Wynn filters.


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## jgt1942 (Mar 25, 2013)

I forgot to mention, when talking to Dick Wynn he confirmed that you CAN clean their NANO filters with an air compressor at 60 PSI.
Normally I keep my air compressor at 90 PSI but adjusting the PSI down to 60 PSI is very easy and I suspect that most air compressors have the ability to adjust the PSI.

Dick suggested NOT using the paddles against the inner side you see on some of the DC units. This will have an adverse effect on the filter and damage it. Thus just blow them out with the air compressor at 60 PSI.


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## NoSpace (Jan 2, 2015)

Clin,

I'd start first by measuring the problem you're solving for:

http://www.dylosproducts.com/ornodcproair.html

once you can measure the problem, you will see that solving for it is relatively easy.

http://www.grizzly.com/products/Heavy-Duty-Hanging-Air-Filter/G5955

that will do it. (I have the Jet, a little more money but heard this is the same thing).

Any blower with a 20$ furnace filter from home depot will likely work just fine, even for fine dust.

That being said, two problems are hard to solve for and major diminishing returns pumping money into it:

1- visible dust. As others have pointed out, it takes time to circulate the air, a whole 5-10 minutes for me with really heavy tablesaw cutting, and in that time dust particles are going to land. Once a week I dust with an air compressor and Jet running on high, about 20 minutes as I have a tiny compressor.

2 - fine dust at the source.

both problems are mitigated by collecting at the source, but it's going to take a lot of money to get all of it, especially to the point where you're safe cutting on table saw without a mask.

If you can deal with wearing a mask at the table saw, and have a shop policy that says when your particle counter reaches a certain level, put the mask on, you can do pretty darn well for under 500$. I wear my mask about 1 hour out of an 8 hour day of work. of course, it's a hobby for me. If I had more room and put hours in every day, I'd cautiously spend a little more.


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## clin (Sep 3, 2015)

NoSpace,

It's actually JohnT with the problem he is trying to solve. But I do happen to have a Dylos meter and Jet room filter. I use the Dylos to keep an eye on things. It is interesting to see that is is just as Bill Pentz has said. Just walking around the shop can cause the count to jump up.

I do use the counter to decide when to run the filter and wear a respirator. I always run the filter and wear the respirator when cutting. But the counter lets me know when I can turn the filter off and/or remove the respirator.
But even once the count is down, moving one small board around on a dusting table saw top, and up goes the count.

In the end, it's a battle to be fought but never won. And, after all, it is wood dust, not radioactive waste.


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## NoSpace (Jan 2, 2015)

Sorry about the confusion clin. Glad to met a fellow dylos owner.

Mine is running right now (I have the woodworking version) and is nearly at a thousand just from the night air. Virtually no operation save the table saw pushes it that high with the door closed and Jet running.

Interesting to meet someone with the same gear but opposite results on at least one thing-I've found virtually nothing Pentz has said confirmed by my particle counter. Walking around my shop doesn't make it go up in the least. I have carpeting-maybe? I do vacuum after any day I cut and about once a week go through everything with an air compressor so there isn't a whole lot of dust hanging around.

Ok sure, if I had a shop apron which I don't, and I shook it, I'm sure it would send the dylos screaming. But then again, vacuuming, a quick burst from the air compressor over electronics that's gathered dust and it also goes way up and so there isn't a really unique phenomena to woodworking operations. If a person has a basement with no ventilation and never cleans it and is cutting and sanding all the time down there, then it would be a real hazard. But it's not this insurmountable problem that requires big investments to collect dust at the source and so on. a 40$ face mask, a box fan with a furnace filter strapped to it, and reasonable effort to vacuum and dust solves 90%+ of the problem.


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## clin (Sep 3, 2015)

My shop is actually pretty darn clean. But count going up may be a relative thing. For example, while as I understand it a Dylos count of 1000 is not dangerously high, my first thing in the morning count is usually below 50 and often 0. Move around a bit and it usually gets to around 300.

I also vacuum pretty much at the end of every day.

Sometimes I screw up. Just yesterday, I ripped a board and forgot to reconnect my shop vac to the table saw. Hit a count of some many thousands in no time. But running the Jet brought it down to less than 200 in 15 minutes or so.

By the way, I'm still a bit unclear on what a safe count is in the Dylos. Dylos gives a count level scale for this that seems to be extremely conservative. But I read somewhere that if you take the Dylos count and divide by 100 that comes pretty close to ug/m^3 which is a common standard.

And if I recall, EPA (or maybe it is OSHA) limits are 100 ug/m^3 for long term (hours at a time) exposure. This would equate to a Dylos count of 10,000. Again that would be an upper limit.

FYI, the worst counts I've seen with my Dylos where in my house. Took a while to track it down, but ANYTIME we used the stove for frying anything, the count would go sky high. I'm not talking smoking type frying, just simply sauteing some vegies. If we really fried something like bacon or slightly burned something, counts were over 30,000.

One thing I will say to those who don't have a counter (I.E., most folks), even some really high counts are completely invisible. I've never had visible dust hanging in the air in my shop, but have seen what are probably unsafe levels on the particle counter.

Even though I'm doing a lot more woodworking over the last year, now that I'm limiting my dust exposure, I never find myself coughing later in the day. So whether or not I'm making things safer, I'm definitely like not hacking and blowing my nose after a session of using power tools. So for that reason alone, I find it worth it to keep the shop air clean.

Now I just need to get that darn stove vent exhausting outside.


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## cathode (May 18, 2014)

Clin,
I would be interested to see if an ionizer would help at reducing the particulate count. From my understanding, ionizers are supposed to cause particles to become electrically attracted to eachother, sticking together and thus becoming larger and heavier particles that will then precipitate out (or be easier to filter).

I've seen some higher-end HVAC systems that have a static-charged 'grid' which air passes through and supposedly traps even the tiniest stuff.


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## clin (Sep 3, 2015)

> Clin,
> I would be interested to see if an ionizer would help at reducing the particulate count. From my understanding, ionizers are supposed to cause particles to become electrically attracted to eachother, sticking together and thus becoming larger and heavier particles that will then precipitate out (or be easier to filter).
> 
> I ve seen some higher-end HVAC systems that have a static-charged grid which air passes through and supposedly traps even the tiniest stuff.
> ...


I don't know why it wouldn't work, other than maybe dealing with the amount of dust. But I do see a difference between running a room filter in, say a bedroom, 24/7 just to keep the air cleaner as compared to what's need to deal with a machine that sends a relatively large amount of dust into the air in a very short time.


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## zzzzdoc (Mar 6, 2010)

A normal Jet (or similar) air cleaner rapidly cleans the air in my shop, as demonstrated by my Dylos meter. Within about 10 minutes after sanding and generating fine dust particles, the levels are far less than the ambient air. (Ambient air particle count about 500, the Jet air cleaner gets levels down below 100 - below 50 if left on for an hour or so). This is with an activated charcoal filter, I think MERV 13.

You may be overthinking the problem.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

I have air scrubbing systems and have had them installed on remodels I did. They're great, in my opinion. The metal grid is given a charge and anything contaminating the air is charged and sticks to the sides of metal plates with the opposite (positive) charge.

One of my systems removes smoke, but must be tossed in a dishwasher or otherwise intensively cleaned. Whole house filter systems mounted in front of filter systems (Honeywell and others make them) may need the same attention to deal with cooking or smoke.

Navy subs used to use transcripitors to scrub the air. A Popular Mechanics article I saved from the sixties tells how to make and use on from a flyback transformer from a TV, a car coil and some stove pipe.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

All the charcoal does is remove smells and chemicals. For a shop, it might be better to forego it to avoid bogging the flow of air of the system.

If you want the charcoal filter, put it on your finishing area system.



> A normal Jet (or similar) air cleaner rapidly cleans the air in my shop, as demonstrated by my Dylos meter. Within about 10 minutes after sanding and generating fine dust particles, the levels are far less than the ambient air. (Ambient air particle count about 500, the Jet air cleaner gets levels down below 100 - below 50 if left on for an hour or so). This is with an activated charcoal filter, I think MERV 13.
> 
> You may be overthinking the problem.
> 
> - zzzzdoc


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

From my understanding, just ionizing the air helps, but only near the ionizer.



> Clin,
> I would be interested to see if an ionizer would help at reducing the particulate count. From my understanding, ionizers are supposed to cause particles to become electrically attracted to eachother, sticking together and thus becoming larger and heavier particles that will then precipitate out (or be easier to filter).
> 
> I ve seen some higher-end HVAC systems that have a static-charged grid which air passes through and supposedly traps even the tiniest stuff.
> ...


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## jgt1942 (Mar 25, 2013)

Quick Update, I've made a bit of progress. I went by Lowes and picked up some of the supplies, following is my new Sketchup drawing.








As of this date I have not ordered the Wynn Nano Filter 9L300NANO, it is a cash flow issue.

Today I cut and assembled the four 20×24 pieces (I'm using 1/2" Baltic Birch plywood). The two 24×24 pieces have been cut but assembly is pending. These go on the input/output sides.

I've decided to fix 2×4s on the top and attach to the ceiling via the 2×4s. My ceiling has 2×4s on 24" centers. By using the 2×4s (currently 6' long) attached to the unit (A) I can easily shift the unit to the exact desired position (B) I can more easily attach a support cable from the 2×4 to the end of the Wynn filter. 
Hopefully tomorrow I can mount the blower in the box assembly and external duct pipe.

Because the filter is pending I'll not do anything with that end of the box at this time, the plywood has been cut (24×24) but I have not cut the opening for the filter.

If time permits tomorrow I can install the wiring for the 4-position switch (Off, Low, Med, High) and run a wire from a power source to the area where the unit will be attached to the ceiling. I decided NOT to use a remote control.

After installing the blower I can make a test connection to ensure the motor still works. In my earlier test I confirmed that the blower works on all three speeds but I just want to ensure it still works. 

Also tomorrow I'll give more thought to the manometer placement which will show me when it is time to clean the filter. This is a very simple device to install and makes it real easy to help ensure I change the filter at the correct time.


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## doubleDD (Oct 21, 2012)

Late to the party on this one. Take a look at my 4-way dust collection posted in my projects. (2nd page ?)I attached it to the lathe and literally no dust escapes when sanding on the lathe. You may be committed to your system already but something to consider.


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## jgt1942 (Mar 25, 2013)

doubleDD great idea I can still use this idea but I will be moving forward with the AC build.
I just discovered that the 24×24 pieces should be 20×20. I did not create a cut list in SketchUp  If I had I would not have made this goof.
I'm in the process of the actual build and mounting the blower in the box


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## jgt1942 (Mar 25, 2013)

Progress Update
The shell of the box was assembled and I placed the blower in the shell to determine the placement.








The clamps are holding two 3/4" thick Baltic Burch plywood strips while the glue sits (I use Titebond 3 for all of my work). I needed to widen the area for the screws that will hold the output face to the cabinet (possibly another made me feel better task). I wanted more area than the 1/2 plywood provided for the screws. The face is laying on the workbench just in front of the cabinet shell. I positioned the blower so it rested on the base of the shell, then measured the distance from the top of the shell to the top of the blower. This determined the top of the circle for the output pipe.

On a scrap piece of paper I placed the output pipe and with a pencil I drew a line on the outer side of the pipe. Then I measure the max (200 mm) and min (192 mm) points which gave me 196 mm for the diameter of the pipe. From the top of the circle I dropped down 98 mm to identify the center of the circle. Using a compass I drew a circle with a radius of 98 mm. The circle was not necessary but did give me a visual reference. I then used my RotoZip to cut the circle out.

I then placed the blower on the output face board and used a pencil to mark the edge of the metal. If you look real close at the image you can see the pencil outline.

Just as an extra caution I taped all holes in the metal frame of the blower assembly. I have no idea if this was necessary but it made me feel better.









I then applied weather stripping to the inside of the blower outline on the output plywood. Again I'm not sure if this was necessary but it made me feel better.








Now I was able to place the blower on the weather stripping, drill holes for screws in the metal, install the screws (#10, 1/2"). Because the plywood is only 1/2" (I'm using Baltic Burch) I did not want the screws going through the plywood. If you look at the top picture I put screws only on the left and right side of the blower and spaced them about 3" apart thus I have several screws on each side. At this time I also checked and

I then attached the output face to the cabinet shell. Again screws (Torx head, 1-3/4" long), seven on each side secured the output face to the shell. I did not use any glue for this thinking possibly I will need to remove the blower.








I used 1/2" finger joints for the main part of the shell mainly because they are super strong and I like them.

Following is the filter side of the shell, the filter is on hold pending cash flow. Note that the bottom of the blower is sitting on the bottom of the shell as part of the support for the blower. Not in the image is a small piece of 3/4 plywood (about 3" x 6") jammed against the metal and glued to the bottom of the shell for additional support.









At this time I was able to retest the blower and ensure all was working. I discovered I have a four-speed fan, all speeds work and WOW I'm amazed at the huge volume of the output. Using an app on my android phone I measured the sound level, I placed the phone just to the right of the shell near the back-side about 6" from the shell on an old T-shirt. At the low speed it was about 92 db and at the highest speed it was about 98 db. The normal sound level in the workshop is about 67 db. As I move forward I'll repeat this test.


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## jgt1942 (Mar 25, 2013)

Quick Update
As I was working on the cabinet box on the inside I noticed a few light leaks, some of the finger joints were not completely sealed. I assume I did not apply enough glue. To resolve this I'll run a small bead of caulk on the inside of the joints for all of the finger joints and ensured the leaks are closed.

The filter is pending but I installed the face on the filter side. When I get the filter I'll remove the face and make the necessary cut and make the mounting hardware. 









I notice that when I sanded the edge of the box where the input/output face will go at times I was a bit aggressive and possibly I will have an air leak. Thus I may install some weather stripping foam between the cabinet and the input/output face. I'm not sure if I have an air leak in this area and will test. If I do have an air leak then for sure I will install the weather stripping foam.

On the output face I cut (for the exhaust duct) and glued a 3/4" piece of plywood.









Using JB Weld I installed the output duct.









Tomorrow I will install the two 6' 2×4s, mount the assembly to the ceiling, run the wires, coat the assembly with Varathane Triple Thick Polyurethane and run the hose for the manometer. Once this is completed I'll wait until the cash flow can afford the Wynn Nano filter ($176).


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## jgt1942 (Mar 25, 2013)

Just a bit of progress today, I made too many mistakes and was super tired.
I made the ceiling mounts using 2×4s. The clamps were used just to ensure I had the mounts positioned correctly. The opening is the filter end. In the back of the image you can see my lathe. The AC will be mounted above the lathe.








I attached the ceiling mounts to the ceiling using 9 4" Torx head screws in each board. I managed to goof and miss two of the ceiling joist although I did go to great pains to ensure I had found the joist. I was off about 1" for two of the joist.









If you reference the first image and note the position of the lathe (headstock on the left and the tailstock is on the right). The AC will attach to the ceiling above the lathe, the input will be on the left and the exhaust will be on the right. I may flip the AC 180 degrees mainly because the box with the blower is a bit heavy for an old guy. I do have a friend helping me but we are both old and I fear it may be too much for the both of us. Because the right side of the AC assembly is too close to the wall with the door (by design) I cannot mount the box frame and then install the blower.

I'm a bit reluctant to flip the AC 180 degrees mainly because with the current design when I rotate the output duct it will blow the air down the face of my pullout cabinets and then circle around the shop. If I flip the AC the air will be blown down the center of my shop and I'm not sure if I will get the same cleaning effect for the entire shop.

Following is the basic layout. Sorry to say but the shop is nowhere as the image implies. 









Because I was not feeling well and made too many mistakes I did not do the wiring and run the hose for the manometer. I did apply a coat of Varathane Triple Thick Polyurethane to the assembly .


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## jgt1942 (Mar 25, 2013)

Update
My friend (Jim) suggested removing the blower and attaching it to a separate piece of plywood that would then be attached to the backside (inside the box side) of the output face. Hopeful that makes sense, I'm too confused to explain otherwise.

I detached the output face board which had the motor attached.
I then removed the blower and reinstalled the output face to the cabinet.








I then attached the blower to a new piece of plywood that was cut to slip in from the filter side and then attach to the output board (above image)








This is what the new board looks like from the front side with the output hold cut. Care was taken to ensure it aligned with the hole in the output with the 90 degree duct pipe. The new board was then attached to the cabinet. At this point everything looked good.








I then removed removed the new board and blower setting them to the side. I then attached the cabinet case to the ceiling.

Mounting the box was a two person effort. I could lift the box by myself but I could not secure it in place while installing the finder washer, lock washer and nut. Not having the blower in the box made it much easier. I'm not sure what I would have done with the blower in the box.

WOW like rock solid!

Once the cabinet was secured to the ceiling I was able to install the blower on the new board by myself and secure it to the output side of the cabinet.








For now I left the filter side plywood off. I still need to run the wiring to the power source and to the switch I will be installing. The switch is only a three speed and the blower motor is a four speed. Thus I'll have to skip one of the speeds.








The two bolts you see in the upper left are two of six carriage bolts, e.g. three on each side. Originally they were 4" long but I cut about 1 3/4" off. The heads are inset into the 2×4 about 1/8", not really necessary but it made me feel better. After drilling the inset I hammered the bolts in to force the square shoulder into the 2×4. This help ensure they would not turn when I started turning the nut to secure the box to the ceiling supports.


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## jgt1942 (Mar 25, 2013)

Moving slowly but in a positive direction. I completed the wiring, tested, corrected errors, and completed final test. The blower is now correctly working. As you can see in the following image, I installed a terminal strip to make the connections. I opted to use a terminal strip rather than just twisting the wires together with a wire cap just to make it easier if I have to remove the blower. I also labeled all of the wires, to facilitate reconnecting everything if I have to remove/reinstall the unit.








I've decided to seal the holes for the wires and manometer pipe coming into the box with pipe dope thus making it easier for any possible maintenance work.

I installed a wall switch in the area near the unit. When I ordered the switch I had thought I had a 3 speed blower (later I realized I have a 4-speed blower) thus I ordered a 4-position switch. This means that I cannot use one of the speeds. Currently I have eliminated the MED-Hi but I did run the wire to the switch box for all of the speeds thus if I order a 5-position switch I can easily swap it out. I'll make this decision when I install the filter and determine if I will benefit from the 4th speed. The Wynn nano filter is still on hold pending cash flow issues.

I've run the line for the manometer but have not completed the wall mount for it. This should be a simple task and the final calibration really requires the filter but without the filter I can establish a starting point for a clean filter, e.g. just leave the input face off as in the above image and a completely full filter by sealing off the input area. Currently the plywood that goes on the input side is just a solid piece of wood thus I can easily install it to simulate the completely full filter. I'm waiting until I get the filter to make final placement and cut the hole.


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