# Getting Screwed Legally



## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

A recent blog showing confusing sales techniques made me think of how many times we are victims of fraudulent business practices which we can't seem to do anything about. I'l give you 2 examples where we are legally "taken for a ride:-(
Auto Insurance is considered to be a "cash cow" by Insurance companies, here's why:
You purchase a new vehicle say for $25,000.00 and your insurance reflects a replacement value for the vehicle in your premium. Over the years the premium goes up slightly, and lets say after 10 years your premium is slightly more than the original premium. Then you have a wreck, but your 10 year old vehicle is now worth $1,000.00, so that's the payout even though your insurance is the same price as it started for $25,000.00 coverage. Why does your premium never reflect the diminishing value of the vehicle?? Gotcha!

My property taxes are due at the end of the year as are most peoples' and yes the taxes have gone up because they increased the valuation of the property. In normal times I can live with that BUT according to government figures property prices have fallen 22-1/2% !!! It appears the tax collectors DO NOT have to justify their property value increase, even when the property has been devalued. So fraudulent valuations on property taxes are their way of doing business? 

Of course is us mere mortals ever tried to do these scams we'd be in jail and have a lien on our property.

There must be many examples where we are "taken for a ride" and legally robbed.
It would be nice to know of other scams and fraud which members get caught in. So let us alert each other to these sort of things.


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## GMman (Apr 11, 2008)

I work for the government for 35 years and it was a full time job in the union still I had to pay UI which I was not able to collect one cent of.
I am getting a pension that I paid in while I worked but as I turn 65 and sign in for my OAS pension the same amount of the OAS pension is taken off my pension that I paid in, more my wife will not qualify for an OAS because my revenue is too high by their account.


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## GMman (Apr 11, 2008)

If I do any small repair on my house I need a permit $25 now the reason is to raise my taxes.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

We're all robbed everyday by our fiat currency, but try telling that to the average person. :-[


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## GMman (Apr 11, 2008)

You retire and you still pay income tax for the people on welfare sitting on their ass, I know I have a brother in-law in perfect health on welfare having a laugh seeing me paying income tax still.
If I get a prescription from my doctor I have to pay but my brother in-law get it free of charge.


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## HokieMojo (Mar 11, 2008)

My auto insurance goes down every year as my car ages. If yours doesn't, you either had an event occur that puts you at higher risk or you need to change companies.


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## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

I don't sweat the small stuff. Life's a bitch then you die, might as well try and laugh your way through it  What I found more important in the past couple of days is that yes, woodchucks do chuck wood!


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

Good one, Abbott. Yeah, and they sure as hell ain't going to put up with any farmer that comes along and tries to spoil their fun, else he may find out that woodchucks do chuck farmers - right? ;-\


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Roger, you mean we are being screwed by the government* and* the insurance companies??!! Shocking newsflash, indeed!

LOL!


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## WoodyWoodWrecker (Jul 1, 2009)

In 2004, I was looking to buy a Toyota Prius but they were hard to find. I found one in Florida while visiting relatives. It wouldn't be off the boat for another 2 weeks, so I asked the salesman if he could ship it to Arkansas. He said that they weren't set up for that but that it would be cheaper to fly one way and pick it up, anyway. I had to be in Atlanta that week, so my wife flew down and picked me up on the way back home. What the salesman neglected to tell me, and I found out later, is that if you drive a car off the lot in Florida, you must pay the Florida state taxes. And since I live in Arkansas, they demanded their taxes, as well. So I had no choice but to pay double taxes on the same car.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

Woody, the guvment's arithmetic don't ever add up.


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## jackass (Mar 26, 2008)

Hi Roger,
We all get screwed by Insurance Companies, Taxes, and Heating Companies, especially fossil fuel companies, these you can expect. The ones that irk me are the guys that sold me a lawn tractor for $3,000 and issued a one year warranty. We took it back for the free oil change and blade sharpening in the spring before the year was up, to be told the warranty expired at the end of August last year. The tractor was purchased in June of the previous year approx 2 to 3 months warranty. We had to pay $150.00 to get the tractor back, If we hadn't he would still have the tractor. Since then I spoiled at least 3 sales for him, more to come I hope. Then there is the $25.00 gift certificate my daughter gave me for Father's day to buy lobster. The bill came to $22.50 and they wouldn't give me the change. My protest was if the bill had come to $10.00 would he have kept the $15.00? He wouldn't answer, but by then my voice had risen a few octaves. We won't be doing business there any more either. I tell everyone I can.
Jack


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## Uncle_Salty (Dec 26, 2009)

Woodywoodwrecker: I drove to Texas several years ago to buy a vehicle. Had a similar situation with the sales taxes. However, as soon as I had proof that I paid sales tax in my home state, I was able to send a copy of the receipt to Texas and I got reimbursed for the taxes I paid in Texas.

Not sure what the form was called, as it has been over 5 years ago.

winchesterp


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## rivergirl (Aug 18, 2010)

Well Roger, you have spoken as a true Texan.  I think the "screws" tighten anytime there is government regulation that entails "mandatory" anything. Taxation and insurance are 2 examples of that. PS Woody- I'm thinking that any American who would pay voluntarily pay double sales tax for a foreign car has little room to complain about being screwed. (sorry- just my opinion..)


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## HokieMojo (Mar 11, 2008)

What US manufacturer made a hybrid in 2004 when Woody bought his car? The only one i can think of is the ford escape and that got 1/2 the MPGs and was hardly comparable. Even on the escape, the transmission was made by Toyota and the batteries were made by Sanyo, two of the most expensive parts on the car.


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## jack1 (May 17, 2007)

There have been a lot of reassessments here in CA since the real estate values dropped. It's helped some. I bought 15 years ago when the market was flat so I'm about even… ;0(


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## mainah (Sep 10, 2010)

Abbott, I agree about not sweating the small stuff. But you know that we have one of the most precious things in the world. The right to Vote. If something ticks you off, you and a bunch of like minded folks can vote the law or person out. OOH RA USA!


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

If we didn't have one way free trade, foriegn cars would cost more and Americans would still have jobs.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

Good point, Topamax.


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## Knothead62 (Apr 17, 2010)

The ol' USA isn't perfect but I'll take it over anything else anyone has come up with! Funny, even with all its problems, etc. guess where people are wanting to come and live!


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

I sure wouldn't argue with you there, knothead. However, it was once better than what it is today so there is nothing wrong with wanting it to be better tomorrow than it is today is there?


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## richgreer (Dec 25, 2009)

What does this have to do with woodworking?


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Thousands are liquidating their shops at pennies on the dollar; thousands more are having a tough time keeping their mills operating because millions can't afford to buy wood or handmade products.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

Rich, I guess your right; it doesn't have anything to do with woodworking, but it is the lounge and we are allowed to discuss things according to this sentence: "Chat with your Forum Friends about their projects, their life, their philosophies, and get to know each other better." So in the lounge we are allowed to discuss all sorts of things - not just woodworking. Now we are not suppose to discuss religion or polititics. But there is an awfully fine line on some subjects so a conversation can drift towards one of these two areas in an awfully big hurry unless you are just a mindless robot; and people are not mindless robots - especially creative people; they are human beings and passions run deep so things will never be perfect. However, to what ever extent I allowed the conversation to drift then I am sorry. How's that?


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

BoiseJoe, I don't think that I could disagree with anything that you have said there. There is an awful lot of good things to be said about living a simple life. I wish I knew how to find the simple life again; but where do you find it except within your own self. There is no other place that I know of where to look for it except within your own self for, in the final analysis, we cannot change anyone else but ourselves and with God's help we will.


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## Jim Jakosh (Nov 24, 2009)

Hi Roger, getting back to the main topic, our taxes actually went down in Gaines Township because the assessed valuation decreased with this economic downturn. Most government taxing bodies are not so honest and they are raising taxes in depressed times.
But Insurance is a big SCREW for your house and car. I evaluate mine every 2 years and shop around. If I find a better price, I give the guys I'm with a chance to match it, if they don't, they lose my business. State Farm was very arrogant when we had them. They raised the rates steadily every hear would not even budg when I found a better price and they went out in the first found.

The biggest ripoff is income taxes. That is so far off balance, there will soon be no middle class. I'll stop here becasue it makes me boil to think about it…............


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

To change the subject to woodworking, I believe that one of the reasons that I want to expand my skills with the hand tools is to gain a simpler life. It's not just that - I really do love the use of hand tools and I really do want to get to know them better. I brought home two very nice pieces of soft maple with me today. One is a 3/4×5-1/2 piece 8 ft long and a piece that is 3/4×9-1/2 8ft long. With these two boards I will build me another utility shop box with hand cut dovetails. I will do this tomorrow. While I'm at it I will look at my tools and my shop and all of my other many blessings, including my freedom to spend a wonderful weekend with my tools and my family. Ain't life grand?


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## SnowyRiver (Nov 14, 2008)

My insurance on my truck goes down every year as it ages. If yours isnt, I would look for another insurance company. They only pay up to the value of the vehicle if its totally destroyed, so you are getting the shaft if your insurance is going up each year. On property taxes, here where I am, the county has been decreasing the tax rate as housing values fall, but my taxes have gone up slightly simply because the school board cant seem too understand how to save money and they keep asking for school bonds which is driving the taxes back up.


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## Catspaw (Dec 15, 2007)

Personally, I like the AT&T ad that emphatically states that you can make a call ANYWHERE in the United States!...until you read the fine print at the bottom of the screen that says coverage not available everywhere?!?

I'd have to agree with Boise.

Alot of people don't like Walmart or whoever. They say support your local business. Well, when I can buy item X for $100 at one place and item X at another for $79….where am I going to buy item X?

Life aint fair…if the big store sells it cheaper…well…too bad I guess. That's capitalism. You can say things about service and such, but, so many items don't need service. I'll buy the $19.95 hammer from the big store before I'll "support" the little guy who wants $27.95 for the exact same item. Sorry.

And finally, I'm pretty sharp when it comes to marketing and I don't fall for it. My biggest problem with it is keeping my 86 yr old dad from falling for it. The phrase…"You did WHAT?" is getting too common.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

"My biggest problem with it is keeping my 86 yr old dad from falling for it. The phrase…"You did WHAT?" is getting too common."

Catspaw, I love that one. I'm 60 years old. If I have heard it once from my wife I've heard it a thousand times.

"You're just a big overgrown kid", "What? You need another tool? Just how many tools does a grown man need?"

She's actually quite right in a lot of ways. As we grow older the kid in us will often come out. My mother and father both lived to be almost 80 - and I loved them both - I can relate to what you said there.


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

Hey Snowy, who you got insurance with? I've got Allstate, haven't bought a new car in three years and it never goes anywhere but up. I haven't seen that check they say you get for being accident free either. Last time I got a premium notice I raised hell with the agent and he said, well they have had two premium increases since your last bill. Duh, I didn't know that(aren't they supposed to notify you?) I'm shopping.


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

Roger,

Many municipalities have an appeal process for property taxes. If your property has not been recently appraised, you might want to look into that possibility.

As others have said, your auto collision coverage should drop in price as the value of your vehicle drops. The other coverages, such as liability, might be rising so fast that the total does not decrease. I keep my vehicles for a long time, so at some point I always drop collision coverage. Of course, this requires that you do not have a loan on the vehicle.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Try The Hartford through AARP. Saved a lot of money using them, over $1,000 / year on auto and house. Statet Farm screwed us one too many times) I would still be paying there high rates if their claims people hadn't tried to screw us for $1,000- 1,500. Fools cut their own throat )


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## lwllms (Jun 1, 2009)

If I operated my business the same way Wall Street operates, I'd be in jail in a hurry. The biggest scam I know of is Wall Street's phantom shares scam. For years on any given day, 37.5% of stocks sold didn't exist and were never delivered to the purchasing portfolio. It was SOP for Wall Street. So when you think of your 401K or other investments shrinking by 40% after the stock market melt-down you'll know where your money went-to fraud. Don't believe me? Here's a link to a .pdf article and it's not from some left wing organization. It's from the CATO Institute, which is about as pro-business conservative as organizations come:

http://www.cato.org/pubs/regulation/regv31n1/v31n1-7.pdf


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## terrilynne (Jun 24, 2010)

How are you doing Roger? I got one for ya,wireless companies have you paying for a service that is [email protected]#ed and have you stuck in a 2 year contract !!


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Last 4 presidents committed felonies, but were never charged. Greenspan maintained that fraud is a market risk and the market will take care of it!! Wonder when it will start?


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Wow, seems like I stirred up a hornets nest.
Referring to my original post, my auto and home insurance is with State Farm and the premiums have never gone down, and no I have never had an auto claim with them since I started with them in 1977.
A few years ago I went to a property tax hearing because my taxes kept going up and got it reduced. It was a ball aching process, photos, maps, house plans and Realtor listings etc. Guess what? , my taxes went back up again the prvious the amount I went to the hearing about in the first place. Since then another County has built a high school in my county, so now I have to pay 2 counties, one I live in and one I don't.

Adding my comments to what others' said:
*Rivergirl:* Thanks for compliment, actually I am an English Texan.

*Knothead62:*
Times have changed. It used to be that decent hard working people sought to come to the US because they saw a chance to make their lives better and live without fear.
Today people want to come to the US because they have a ready made audience for their scams and get rich quick schemes suckering the Young, Old and unsuspecting citizens. It's a bonanza for these criminals because nobady with stop it.

*Boisejoe:* Amen. SPQR … look out for a fiddler with matches.

l*wllms:* Once upon a time there were real estate agents looking to attract new customers. Unfortunately all the customers who qualified for loans and credit were exhausted, so they devised a scheme where lenders would advance credit to clients who did not qualify for normal mortgages. The sub-prime sales took off and banks, insurance companies and mortgage brokers started to make big money.To acquire more cash to services this new "gold mine" the banks, insurance and brokers sold the laons they had already made to other financial institutions WORLDWIDE. The sellers promised these loans were "rock solid", so lots of unsuspecting fools bought into the toxic loans. Then surprise surprise, the uncreditworthy mortgage holders could not afford the premiums, so the who scheme collapses and sends the world into a financial Holocaust. God old US business at its best??? So because these lenders are now on the rocks, the lucky taxpayers get to bail them out so they can go on again treating us like crap. Something is wrong here !!!!

*mainah*
But you know that we have one of the most precious things in the world. The right to Vote. If something ticks you off, you and a bunch of like minded folks can vote the law or person out. OOH RA USA!

Almost pee'd myself reading that. Yes we have the right to vote but it seems we don't have the right to have our votes acted on, even if it is a majority vote. Hate to mention it (for good or bad choices) but I remember the last majority vote on healthcare was for universal healthcare, so what happened there??? The most people voted for it, so it can't be said that our votes count for anything.

A lot of insight has been generated here, and just for laughs, just how many of you would consider boycotting as a method of getting our complaints heard.


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## terrilynne (Jun 24, 2010)

Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness….. What ever happened to that?


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## BritBoxmaker (Feb 1, 2010)

Two things in life are certain. Death and taxes.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

*Martyn:*
That is true, but I'd feel better if it were Death and Owing Taxes, but there again the tax people might start selling your body parts to clear the tax debt. :-(

*terrilynne:*
It is reserved for illegal aliens.


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## WoodyWoodWrecker (Jul 1, 2009)

The reason I purchase a Toyota Prius was because I needed good gas mileage since my company was going to pay me per mile (I wanted to maximize my profit) and the car had good reviews. Like all my major purchases, I look into them carefully. I will say I haven't got a single complaint about the car even after 116,000 miles. As for buying foreign, I can't help that almost nothing is made in America any more. A Wal-Mart store would be the size of my bedroom if they only sold American made products. Most anythings that states "built in America" is probably built with foreign parts.

As for the taxes, it wasn't voluntary. I had no idea that I would owe the Florida taxes until a week or two later. I would buy the car again but I would stay out of Florida when I look for it.


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

You should get a better agent, or something, Roger. I don't know who you've been talking to or dealing with, but all my insurance is with State Farm, and it goes down as the vehicle value decreases. Thanks, Vince (my agent)! Years ago, my wife got in a minor crash (50-50 shared fault), and our rates went up. We sent a not-so-nicely-worded letter detailing what we had spent on insurance, accident-free for decades, and we got it reset to the original rate. Seems like you need to pound the appropriate person…


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## SnowyRiver (Nov 14, 2008)

Howie…I have had my insurance, including the house, with State Farm for 40 years. I used to think maybe their rates were higher than most, but after looking around a few times, and talking to some insurance brokers I have decided that their rates are pretty competitive. I know they have always paid when I needed them so no problems at all.


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## mainah (Sep 10, 2010)

Roger, I stand by what I stated. You may think I was humorous saying what I did but a lot of good people died to give you that right to vote. Some times it might seem fruitless, but if enough of us get really pissed off we can change or eliminate a problem. If you don't like it here you can always pack up and leave. That is one of your freedoms also.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

mainah:
I respect your views totally.
My view however is that trying to rid ourselves of lousy politicians and well connected Government is an arduous task as your vote may get counted but rarely acted upon.
The truth is that we have the best politicians and government money can buy 
We seem to have the freedom also to be screwed, even if you do leave, the IRS still owns you A**.

Interesting thread with all views welcomed.


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## Dcase (Jul 7, 2010)

My family owns an insurance agency and I am a licensed agent and work in sales and service at the agency. There are a lot of factors that go into figuring out insurance rates and each company has their own ways of figuring them out. If your rates are going up don't blame it on the industry because its more then likely just rate increases with the company you are with.

Also, everyone thinks that insurance companies are screwing them until they have a big claim. One big claim could end up paying out more then you will even pay in insurance premium. I have seen a claims reach several hundred thousand dollars. People hate paying for insurance because its not something they can see or feel but if were to have a big claim I bet they would be very thankful that they had it.


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## rep (Nov 20, 2009)

I would not mind the insurance premiums so much if they did not go up when you needed to use the insurance. The way I see it, we agree on (they tell me) the premium, and then they should pay legitimate claims. They should not go up premiums (or cancel) because a claim is needed - I don't get a refund if no claim is processed. I would allow for a large number of claims requiring some attention, but for normal "use", the premium should stay the same.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Dan and rep:

Thanks for your input.
I do understand that a lot of factors go into formulating an insurance premium.

In my case I have been insured by the same company since 1977 for both auto and dwelling.
The dwelling has had 3 claims in all that time, 2 for tornado roof damage and one for a flooding (about 6") when pipes and fittings burst.
As far as the auto insurance goes, I have had several vehicles over this period and I tend to keep my vehicles 5 or more years. In all that time I have never had a claim, and my point is that when you take out the insurance on the new car, a rate is set, but this rate does not reflect the drop in value of the vehicle over the time you have it. Therefore it could work out that if the vehicle was purchased for $20,000.00, it's value can only be that much for 1 year (if that), and you could conceivably find yourself some years after purchasing the vehicle having a write-off value of ZERO because your deductible is then worth more than your vehicle  :-( So in effect only the 3rd party is then insured.
I may just be with a bad company who are supposed to be my good neighbor!


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Roger, My good neighbor screwed me one too many times, so I moved to Hartford and saved $1,000 a year  If they had just treated us fairly, we'd still be paying them the extra 1K a year :-(( Sort of screwed themselves ;-))

In the 93 earthquake, Farmers, State Farm, Allstate and some others were exposed by CBS's 60 Minutes as paying only 40-60% what ws due the homeowners. A woman in the ins commissioners office discovered this and the commissioner stopped and action. He took a lot of campaign contributions and move to Hawaii. The Feds investigated, but could find no evidence of wrong doing.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

How can they appraise a house when there are houses all over that won't sell?


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## mainah (Sep 10, 2010)

Roger, I agree that our Government is way out of hand and has too many bloodsucking bureaucrats a the public teat. I know it's frustrating to me also but the only way we are going to get rid of them is to elect people that have the cojones to cut them down to size. Too top heavy. But we also have to give these people a huge amount of support to protect them from the Buries.Who are usually protected by other Bozo's with a personal agenda. The Founding Fathers have probably rolled many times when they see what kid of a mess we're in.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

Topmax, another question might be why don't 'they' lower your property taxes when the appraisal goes down?


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

helluvawreck:

The answer is that County property tax appraisals are legally NOT required to be based on actual property worth - check the fine print :-( I asked the same question at the tax office - that's the answer I got.
I too inquired why in a year when property prices from the Feds figures show a drop in value of 22.5%, but the County value goes up by several % points. As I said - Legally Screwed.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

I don't ever read the fine print. What's the point? I don't rule the world - they do. If I need a loan to buy a home then sign the papers. This bank's got fine print and so does that one. I just make the payments on time or else. In my own lifetime there was a time when you went and sat down with the president of the bank and he was in control. You could look him in the eye and shake hands when you closed the deal and what he said you could bank on - so to speak. I don't see that you have anything to bank on with a bank nowadays. The world that I grew up in no longer exists. I get by as best as I can and stay clear of rough waters as best as I can. With the Lord's help I'll get by until it's time for me to be called home and it will be a better place than this one.

The government will charge whatever it needs and that is the end of that.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

They actually did here a year or so ago, but the accessor says he is going to start valuing the land higher to put them back up ;-((


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*The Founding Fathers have probably rolled many times when they see what kid of a mess we're in* There is no doubt about it!! They would never approve the whores in Congress that have sold out to the highest corpo bidder ;-(( Trust me on this, my second cousin a few times removed, Roger Sherman, was the only man to sign the Articles of Confederation, The Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. He, Madison and John Vining wrote the Bill of Rights too )


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

"The Founding Fathers have probably rolled many times when they see what kid of a mess we're in "

Topmax, you can say that again.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

mainah originated it. They are no doubt wondering what went wrong, no, they predicted it would self-destruct when the feeding frenzy started at public expense.


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## traupmann (Oct 8, 2010)

Another take: I don't like taxes anymore than anyone else, but what fries me is what we are complaining about. We are complaining about paying for the government, yet we easily plunk down $20 bucks for a CD that cost only a few cents to make. I call it "fun-tax". We are lining the pockets of a singer who is pumping drugs in his veins or buying his sixth mansion. We are bitching about spending 8% more to fund education, roads, and police protection, while a bunch of kids are getting much more of a cut for singing. 
This goes for videos, shampoo, pop-tarts and everything overpriced from it's ingredients. Just look at the Linsey Lohan foolishness. She is getting tons of money from movies none of us can even name. Look at the Parade "what people make" next time it is out, and look what entertainers of all stripes get paid versus what police, teachers, and grader operators make; we are objecting to paying these people. Government needs a new word for tax, Perhaps the police should start selling their services - like the firemen in Tennessee? 
Buy a saw blade or a router bit, and you are paying next to no fun-tax. Go to Walmart, and you are paying China-tax (no-regulations), which is where we have erred. A level playing field of environmental laws, labor laws, consumer rights laws would make chinese goods just as expensive as US.

Sorry for the rant, there is much more to all this, but I think you can see the message


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

thanks traupmann, I was beginning to feel lonely :-(( Thought I ws the only one w;ho figured it out )


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## surfin2 (Oct 24, 2009)

No one said anything about paying more for insurance if you have bad credit!

Q.V.C. sells 95% made in china the other 4.9% is still foreign…

Harley Davidson is considered the only American made Motorcycle…
What a joke… There isn't one American made part one the bike…
That's called American assembled foreign made…


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Since October of 2000 through 2009, USDA lost 5.5 million manufacturing jobs. At the current rate this year, we will loose another 1/2 million this year. I heard on the radio yesterday, that the US does not have much influence at the G-20 meeeting. The dollar loosing 40% of it's value since 2000, trade deficiet and foriegn debt will probably push it lower. Our big eared president saying deficet spending didn't matter may have been wrong :-((


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## RandyMarine (Mar 5, 2009)

your first story holds true…however the secod not so much. That 22 and a half percent is a nation wide average. Here in Syracuse where i live, our values never went up during the real estate boom because of our depressed area the real estate bandits never tried inflating the prices. My property has actually gained value over the last 3 years(not much but I can still sell for more than I paid and my ouse is not a dump). If you lived in LA your house could have lost 50%...sorry that's the math. For once living in this sh!thole paid off.


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## antmjr (Sep 7, 2009)

Italy is one of the most corrupted countries in the world: be happy, think of those Italians like me who suffer from the total lack of justice in their own country.


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## Radu (Jan 25, 2010)

deleted


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## Radu (Jan 25, 2010)

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## RalphBarker (Oct 26, 2010)

One of my favorites is the way local governments in my area "sell" bond issues by saying they won't increase your taxes. In these cases, the new bond is replacing one that is expiring, so taxes would go down, absent the new bond.


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## Gene01 (Jan 5, 2009)

This is not political, simply shining a light on the reality of the situation.
Taxes and costs attributable to govt. regs and laws are extortion….. ultimately, at the point of a gun. 
However, the purchase of overpriced goods and services is a choice.


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## shipwright (Sep 27, 2010)

The work of governments must be done. Police forces and fire departments must be paid. Roads must be maintained, etc, etc, etc. In times of low revenues from all tax sources governments still need to provide services.
Yes, I'm Canadian but our system is not unlike yours in this regard. The usual thing that happens here is that if property values drop but the local government is unwilling or unable to cut services, they change the mil rate so instead of paying $5000 tax on $500,000 value at a 1% rate you are now paying $5000 tax on a $250,000 value at the new 2% rate.(arbitrary numbers for clarity)
The real debate about taxes IMHO is what they're spending them on. I'm all for paying taxes if I'm getting value for my dollar but I have to shake my head sometimes at the way they spend taxpayers' money.


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## traupmann (Oct 8, 2010)

RandyMarine: I live in LA and yes my house is 1/2 of what it was 3 or 4 years ago, but still twice what I paid for it ten years ago. There isn't much land being made with the weather we enjoy. Fortunately unlike many places, our property taxes are held in check. My cousin in Wisconsin pays more property tax than I do for a home worth substantially less. Of course we pay a substantial income tax and a high sales tax.

Like many of you I am concerned about where my tax money goes, especially because the government in the US cannot find much of it. But why are we not so concerned about the profit of the banks that pay exorbitant bonuses. How many of you have withdrawn your money from the big banks and moved it to your local credit union, or small bank?

If any of you are interested in this topic and who rules america (click the link)


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## Gene01 (Jan 5, 2009)

We've been with our little CU for 30 years. Very easy to negotiate with. 
We've paid property taxes for longer than that. Our assessors office doesn't negotiate. Not with me, anyway.
I really can't quarrel about how our county taxes are used. And, our RE taxes are low, especially compared to other areas. That doesn't negate the fact that they are collected at the point of a gun. If I refused to pay and tried to stay on the property, folks with guns would force me off. 
My dad always said that no one truly owns their home.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

The things that Chap my hind end are when we hear of all the cuts…while in fact spending has increased. It is that someone asked for an additional 200K for next years budget but only got a 50K increase and they go screaming about the 150K that was CUT from their budget.

To keep the impetus for this crap up…whenever there is a shortfall in revenue, it is ALWAYS the battle cry that we will have to Release violent criminals onto the streets and lay off Teachers, Firemen and Police. Never that Perhaps the City Manager of a 50,000 person 'town' isn't really worth 800K/year (Bob Rizzo in Bell, CA).

Education funding - I have three kids in Elementary ~500 kiddo's.
There are 61 Employees, just at the school. Only 17 are classroom teachers. The rest are Aides, Paraeducators (assistants) Sociologist, 2 school psychologists and on and on and on.
I recognize we need a janitor, principal, librarian, lunch ladies etc. But there are 44 Staff to "Help" 17 teachers. Really a 2.5 to 1 ratio!! Then add in the downtown staff and superintendants and their whole staff and I see that EDUCATION really stinks - but there is a lot of fat in the schools that should be cut without laying off a single teacher. Yet it is still never enough. Frankly some of these 'sacred cows' should be examined without people screaming about how it is 'for the children'
Too many teachers have chosen their profession for Summers and all holidays off, and tenure. There are some amazing teachers…. there are some amazingly ********************ty ones too, but all are untouchable unless they molest a kid or shoot somebody.

OH and it is now part of our School Districts RESPONSIBILTIY -
School Breakfast and Dinner
School Lunches during the Summer… so staff the cafeteria and feed the kids all summer.
Provide backpacks full of food on Friday so kids eat over the weekend.
Free daycare center at the highschool

Each program can have its merits, but why aren't summer meals in the Welfare/food stamp category rather than SCHOOL FUNDING!
Why is the Highschool Principal responsible for hiring and firing daycare workers at the site.
Why is the school deciding whether to get new classroom equipment like a Sawstop for the woodworking program, or an outdoor jungle jim for the daycare….then we complain that No Child Left Behind is too hard to implement.


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## dusty2 (Jan 4, 2009)

I hope they gave you the gift card back, jackass, with a balance remaining.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*traupmann* That link cites a lot sources, but it does not cite the census bureau. If it is true for the narrow period listed, adding another decade at the bottom end would surly shift the conclusion dramatically in favor of the top 1%. It ws in the 80s when Michael Milkin introduced corporate asset raiding and junk bonds to America.

BTW, definition for political statement: "The term political statement is usually used to refer to any act or non verbal form of communication that is intended to influence a decision to be made for or by a group." Therefore, citing historical and economic facts is not a political statement. Those who feell a need to police could work on getting gloats off the project pages. A while back, there was one on every page for a short period ;-((


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I am thinking about putt8ingit up for sale by owner. If I don't get any offers, it is obviously not worth that mcuh  My wife doesn't want me to do it :-(


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## traupmann (Oct 8, 2010)

TopamaxSurvivor: The period is 1922 to 2007, check out *Wealth, Income, and Power* <-the most enlightening portion of the site.


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## LocalMac (Jan 28, 2009)

The answer to all your problems is simple…move to North Dakota. We're perfect. : ) Quick comment about car insurance- I don't mind paying for mine. If I'm in an accident regardless of who's at fault I get 300k in medical bills covered and 100k for each person in my car. Since hospitals are the biggest crooks of all (even the "non profit" we have here) I feel better knowing I have that coverage.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I saw that chart. I don't have any idea how they came up with it, but I do not believe it. During the 80s and early 90s, the biggest transfer of wealth in the history of the world occurred. 40% of the public equity market was transferred into private hands in the form of compensation and bonuses for upper management of corporations. Share holder's votes to try to stop it were ignored by management. One of the biggest issues was institutional investors reluctance to join the private share holders in the efforts.

If you look at the dot com bust years at the turn of the 21st century and after, the numbers are largely stable. During that period, millions of Americans lost the majority of their retirements due to Wall Street shenanigans. As Henry Blodgent of Merrill Lynch said in his infamous email, sell the fools garbage for $200 a share. They did, even though Merrill's CEO went on PBS's Wall Street Week with Lewis Rukyser to say it was just a few employees joking around. NY Atty Gen, Elliot Spitzer, exposed 16 of the nations 17 largest brokerage houses to be engaged in criminal activity. He even exposed the squeaky clean Mutual Fund industry as conducting fraudulent trades in the normal course of business. The day he exposed Putnam, the State of Massachusetts pulled their state pension funds that were under that Mass. Firm's management. That was over 10$ of the assets they managed. Richard Strong was ultimately banned from the securities business for life. His mutual fund company had been valued in the billions and he sold to (I think Wells Fargo) for about 100 million.

When you look at the values of assets lost by the public in the last few years, That chart calls into suspect its own credibility. It looks more like Koch Brothers propaganda than fact. I really have to wonder how much longer people will vote those who support outsourcing all industrial production? How bad will it have to get before they wake up to FAIR TRADE policies.

It has been claimed that isolationist policies were a cause of the Great Depression. At that time, out exports only accounted for about 5% of the economy. How could 5% account for taking the other 95% down? The cause was the same as it was back then. Unregulated monopoly economic policies. 35 years of companies eating other and lack of anti-trust enforcement caused the bubbles just like they did in the 19th century and early 20th centuries.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Interesting you should say that LocalMac. North Dakota has a state banking system chartered in the 30s. It does not have a lot of the problems caused by the multi-national banks out from the regulations of Glass Seagall and are too large to fail. IMO, we would be a lot better off if we had let them fail and divided them up rather than make them bigger.


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## Popsnsons (Mar 28, 2010)

Or, you could just have ALLSTATE…You're in good han..; ooops did I just drop something.


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## Knothead62 (Apr 17, 2010)

Check with different insurance companies. See if their premiums go down when the value depreciates.


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## SteviePete (May 10, 2009)

As above….get the facts on valuation, objection process and how equalization is done. Taxes are only a small part of what we should be doing to pay back our society. We have responsiblity for those who can't take care of them selves. My father, Uncles and myself are veterans. We are proud of our service and the service of all others. This service has given America safety and stability within our borders we enjoy today. I get something for every tax I pay. Educated children-ready for the future employment picture, services for safety and civility, the luxury of a retirement where my pension and SS is sufficient to stay in my house, provied everything I need, including wood, tools and the time to keep myself busy.With our gratitude and votes our elected officials are given the power to control the benefits we demand. Hold them accountable but be reasonable.

Take a deep breath. Go to the shop, plane a small board square. Keep it up until your gratitude exceeds your need to bitch. A positive mental attitude helps you live longer. Long live the King of the Shop. Godspeed.


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## Gene01 (Jan 5, 2009)

Dave Nesting,
Wife and I worked within school systems for 37 years. What you say is so true. 
Our solutions are to first eliminate all mandated programs that are only peripherally related to "read'n" and "write'n", and second, allow all teachers to negotiate their individual salaries and working conditions.
There is a lot more that could be done to improve the situation, but much too arcane and boring for discussion here.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Thanks Gene - I'm probably fired up because the first quarter just ended and we went to teacher Conferences last week at elementary and Middle school.
The elementary has 2 Kindergarded, then 3 each grades 1-5. Since I have 3 kids now in 2, 4, and 6th grade
we have had both Kindergarden teachers, all three 1's grade all three second grade, 2/3 of third grade 2/3 of fourth grade and 1/3 of the fifth grade teachers…and there is a big spread in both quality and enthusiasm.

Of course our state just jacked the sales tax by another 1% and the city by 0.5 so now sales tax is 8.5% versus 7%.....and the reason given to reporters by our representatives, was that "cuts would be too unpopular." 
But Hey we just put in a new waterpark and on Tuesday we vote on another 0.25% onto the sales tax to fund a 27Million dollar 'River Walk'

Stevie must be lucky or have good local government, because I do NOT feel that i have gotten something for EVERY tax I pay


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