# VOTE .... Will the economic stimulus package in congress help WOODWORKERS ?



## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)

2/11/2009

Will the economic stimulus package in congress help WOODWORKERS ?

This is a nonscientific survey …

Please limit your response to 25 words or less …. Zero is ok too









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## gbvinc (Aug 6, 2007)

Nope.


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## JohnGray (Oct 6, 2007)

NOT.


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## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

They seem to be implementing more of the trickle on theory of economics.


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## Radish (Apr 11, 2007)

Probably not. I wonder if there might be jobs in NYC and D.C. building stocks and pillories. 
Better buy something with that tax break, or we've pissed away a big chunk of 789 billion.


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## Huckleberry (Nov 7, 2007)

Doesn't look like it. Then again we all could be wrong.


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## motthunter (Dec 31, 2007)

can't say for sure… but after what we have done for the past 8 years, and change might be good.

The Republicans said that the plan would be a disaster… and they sure do know how to create disasters.

The only thing that can eventually fix the economy is a return to decency and confidence in the economic market.. When regulations exist to allow capitalism to work and keep excessive greed in check, we all win.


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## miles125 (Jun 8, 2007)

All private business will suffer until people get over their childlike envy of unequal levels of success. A govt interested in fairness is a catchphrase for a govt interested in holding people and their productivity back.


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## trifern (Feb 1, 2008)

Only if you build pigpens to hold all the pork.


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## cpt_hammer (Dec 18, 2007)

Not one bit, because it won't put the necessary funds where they really need to go. In the hands of businesses and citizens. John Kerry made the statement that when you give money to businesses and the people they are free to do whatever they want with it. Save it, pay down bills, etc., but not direct it where it needs to go. But the government can direct where it goes and is smarter than the people and businesses. This from a man who is wealthy because he married twice for money. We also know how well the government spends money. Anyone want a $200 hammer or a $500 toilet seat?


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## wwbeds (Jul 1, 2007)

Hey, can we have a Lumberjocks Lobby Group? We could lobby congress for a woodworkers bailout! Really, if we're to just throw money somewhere, we should at least send it to businesses for captial investment. This way we'll be more competive in the world market when the econony picks up.


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## LoggerHead (Aug 8, 2007)

Not a chance


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## bowyer (Feb 6, 2009)

Nope!! It's just buisness as usual in the govt. The only "change" we'll see from this admin. from the last is the faces at the news confrences


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## GFYS (Nov 23, 2008)

The Republicans said that the plan would be a disaster… and they sure do know how to create disasters.

polly wanna cracker!


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## jockmike2 (Oct 10, 2006)

What they need to do is give the money to the heads of major banks and corporations. They are the only ones that know how to have a really good time with it.


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## SCOTSMAN (Aug 1, 2008)

"aye eye "well done me loverly lad.LOLAlistair


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## mot (May 8, 2007)

The cracks in your system, as in ours, will swallow up ANY amount of money you throw at it. However, given enough time, anything will succeed or fail based on the situation of the time. Good luck everybody! Maybe if you all get to shake Obama's hand, he can find you a place to live as well!


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## scarpenter002 (Sep 16, 2007)

Nope.


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## map (Oct 12, 2008)

Absolutely! Remember, they're from the Federal Government and they're here to help us.

snark/off


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## bbrooks (Jan 3, 2007)

Nope.


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## CharlieM (Mar 28, 2008)

Many economists of good reputation say that it will HURT, badly.

Japan tried several times in the nineties and it didn't work. FDR's own treasury secretary said that after 7 years and all that money spent it did no good.

When the money finally gets into circulation there will be serious inflation, so try to protect yourself!

Read the bill to discover where the money goes, you will find little stimulus but LOTS of pay offs to political 'Friends".

Check it out yourself, don't take my word for it. Do a Google search.

Government produces nothing of real use, they only disrupt.

Winston Churchill said that to spend and tax yourself into prosperity is like standing in a bucket and trying to lift yourself by the bail.

Charlie Mullins


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## rtb (Mar 26, 2008)

Only (if & when) it creates obs for out of work for the unemployed wood workers. On the other hand the "cut taxes" approach has always resulted in favoring the rich.


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## odie (Nov 20, 2007)

I have my hand out, and so far 2 birds have hit it. They (congress) can't manage their own house, they surely can't manage our whole economy. This economy would recover much faster without their interference.


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## Moai (Feb 9, 2009)

YES
WE
CAN


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## oldworld124 (Mar 2, 2008)

NO. It will kill real jobs.

I am white and am definitely out of luck on this one. Just listen to the messiah's advisor robert reich






This is just another racist left bill that is all about control & redistribution of wealth. Can I say " DISCRIMINATION "?


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## woodyoda (Dec 7, 2008)

Not a chance, unless woodworkers make wooden condoms or frisbees…...they should bring back the Usury Laws… yoda


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## Big_Bob (Mar 30, 2008)

If all the new tools come from China then the economic stimulus package will help the economic conditions in China!

No person, company or country can improve there economic condition by spending. The only improvement can be made by producing more. Just look at China!


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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

The reason I'm not in Ottawa or the Whitehouse is that I just don't know.

Bob


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## Grumpy (Nov 9, 2007)

They are trying the same thing down under. Only time will tell.


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## Gene01 (Jan 5, 2009)

Not in the slightest!
It's never worked anywhere it's been tried. Just as Socialism has never worked…what? wait a minute…it's the same thing.


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## CedarFreakCarl (Apr 21, 2007)

Let me put this is terms us woodworker's can understand. We're screwed.


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## mmax (Dec 9, 2008)

Socialism is not the answer.


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## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)

everyone is concerned


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## Padre (Nov 5, 2008)

Nope. Absolutely not. Nada. Nyet. Negative.


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## mtnwild (Sep 28, 2008)

Not if you give it to the same people that put us here in the first place.


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## RAH (Oct 14, 2007)

It is going to help the select few and President Obama and friend are going to do the selecting.

I'm going to take my extra thirteen dollars a week and spend it wisely, it is probably going to cost me twenty six dollars a week to pay for it in taxes and inflation.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

No, but when this problem is resolved, wood workers as well as everyone else will thrive.

"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."-French economist, statesman and author Frederic Bastiat (1801-1850)


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## Dadoo (Jun 23, 2007)

If the fat bankers take the money and buy new office furniture for themselves, then some woodworker will profit. Sorry…just being sarcastic as after all the disgust with this mess, sarcasm is all that's left.

We'll all rebound eventually but the bailouts won't be the reason why.


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## LeeJ (Jul 4, 2007)

Not yet!

Lee


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## DocK16 (Mar 18, 2007)

George spends 80 biillion a year in Iraq for 7 years then 750 billion to bail out the banks and all their bad loans now Obama puts us in debt another trillion (give or take a few billion) Is there any fiscal sanity left? In 4 score and twenty our great grandchildren will be cursing this legacy we have left them.


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## charboucher (Feb 13, 2009)

I wouldn't think so.


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

So, It would seem that very few LJ's voted for Obama. He did lay out what he was going to do so we all knew it. Doesn't sound like many of you would have voted him into office.


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## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

I would not put it on just the democrats. The republicans pumped a few billion down the hole and sat for 8 years playing with themselves. Jump on both sides of the fence the problem remains. We had plenty of people saying this is going to bust. You can only build so many houses. You can only borrow so much money.


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## DustyDave (Aug 5, 2007)

LJ's are a smart bunch!


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## WoodSpanker (Feb 10, 2009)

Not a chance in hell, especially if you are a white male. Bend over grab your ankles and take it like a man…..


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## wooddon (Jul 11, 2007)

pork pork


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

No, I didn't vote for "O"! Too bad the R had to follow Bush. No R could have been elected after that idiot. I was a R precinct committee officer before we elected that idiot. Looking at the economy there is enough blame for both sides. The R's are trying to build an oligarchy. The power brokers accept the religious right and the gun owning NAS Car fans because they can't win without them. Their policys on tax cuts for the rich starting with Regan in 1980 have financed 3 bubbles (87, 2000 and now) and allowed criminals to take over Wall Street. Their union busting policies aided by Slick Willy in the 90's have dropped middle class income dramatically. Greenspan allowed cheap credit to finance the economy as wages dropped in the last 25 years. The Dems jumped on this cheap money to finance houses for people who couldn't possibly pay the mortages or get a real mortage. Take the screw ups of the R's are compound them by the D's, you get the end of the middle class. If we will have a middle class again, it will be by adopting the policies of Truman and Eisenhower. That means 70-90 % tax rates on people making over 3 million/ year. Back then the number was about 100,000. My 8th G-GDaddy didn't get wounded coming off Long Island with Washington in Aug of '76 and give nearly everything he had for the likes of these greedy Bs to p*** it all away! There's the end of my rant. I'm a Nationalist, an American, praying for either of these parties to quit answering to big money.


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## oldworld124 (Mar 2, 2008)

RIGHT ON TopamaxSurvivor !!!! To HEL… with the rest of the world. WE MUST be run by THE PEOPLE , Not the communist, socialist, enviro green, globalist corporate slave elitists!!!


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## juniorjock (Feb 3, 2008)

Getting a little political isn't it…............? 
- JJ


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I forgot to mention, the toxic assets the bankers hold are the "derivatives", what ever they are? that Greenspan said the responisble people in the market could self-regulate back when they were invented; amount to 600 trillion! Our Gross National Product is 13-14 trillion per year. The European union 's is about the same as ours, Japan, Koera and China are about 3 billion each per year. These toxic asets we are backing in these bail outs are 15 to 20 times the total amount of money made in the world each year! Those idiots running the economy are insane!! For prespective, the total amount of RE in the US is valued at about 15 trillion. All the capital value in the equity markets is abouit the same, but may be less as this last bubble has just burst.


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## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)

not too serious folks … it is ALL FUNNY MONEY


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## HallTree (Feb 1, 2008)

From what I have seen of the projects here at LumberJocks I think the Government should ask us for advice on how to plan, design, budget, purchase, and how to start and finish a project that all can be proud of.


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## oldworld124 (Mar 2, 2008)

HallTree, you are talking about sane people. Show me sanity in D.C. and the average lemming.


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## JimmyC (Jan 31, 2009)

Raise import tariffs, forcing people to buy American because we can compete, thereby putting more people to work at a good wage, who pay taxes to start the economy back. It's about us, and always should be. Let every other country take care of themselves.

Jimmy


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## Boardman (Feb 7, 2008)

Heh…reminds me of something I heard on the radio. Some guy(?) in the fashion industry lisped that he thought the freaking fashion industry should get some of the bailout money.


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## miles125 (Jun 8, 2007)

We could do "make work" projects for woodworkers over the next four years. I assemble a table then randomly select another jock to send it to so he can disassemble it. I wonder if we could get subsidies for NOT building woodwork? Hmmmmm


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## cabinetmaster (Aug 28, 2008)

Hey, can we have a Lumberjocks Lobby Group? We could lobby congress for a woodworkers bailout!

Let's get to work and get our share…........ any takers…...................LOL


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## Hersh328 (Jan 10, 2009)

No, borrowing yourself into wealth is like screwing yourself into virginity. It just doesn't compute.

Look at all the pork barrel spending, the political favors, the feeding of the gluttonous entitlement mentality, the astronomical inflation… Depression anyone?

And while the dems hold a great deal of the responsibility for this horrifying mess, there's plenyty of blame left for the republicans. Finding a strong, honest, moral leader in either party is nigh on impossible.


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## GaryC (Dec 31, 2008)

One brilliant man said:
Politics : poli=many tics = blood sucking critters


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## Padre (Nov 5, 2008)

Daniel,
Just because one does not agree with the stimulus package, does not mean they are republican nor that they voted against Obama.

Many people can vote for someone and still be critical of some of their actions.


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## Gene01 (Jan 5, 2009)

Yeah Padre, I voted for Bush. Proves your point.


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## CaptnA (Dec 17, 2007)

they're using monopoly money right??
I afraid that's what it will all be worth soon enough. 
Scary times~
I'm a political agnostic. I believe in something but it isn't what we have, or anything we've had in a long time.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

You really have to wonder why every generation has to learn the hard way, don't you? We went through this very same thing in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Then, they called it horse and sparrow instead of trickle down economics. If you feed the horse enough grain, some will go through for the sparrows. The Robber Barrons didn't trickle through enough then and the oligarchy isn't trickleing through any now. Economies like the US, are built on consumer demand financed by good wages. We have went from one wage earner with 45% equity in the 50-60 to 2 wage earners trying to pay down their debt load and negative equity in the 90's-00. This isn't rocket science. As long as we have guys like Bill McGuire making 1.4 billion / year running United Health Care, I'm afraid it will just get worse and worse. At least we don't have 12 year olds in the coal mines this time, so there still is some positive ground maintained.


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## Sawdust2 (Mar 18, 2007)

12 year old in the coal mines!!!
Did you read about the 12 year old who designed a game (app) for the new phones and is already a thousandaire, soon to be a millionaire?

No matter who runs the government the bigger the worser. And the Dems are bragging that this is the biggest EVER!

Lee


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

That's probably what we should be doing; writing game software instead of fiddling with wood!! )

Nobody runs the government anymore. They're working on their stratagies for the next election ;-((


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## pitchnsplinters (Dec 26, 2008)

0


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## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)

If luck has anything to do with it … keep-your-fingers-crossed or we all good be out in the cold … 
... the economy could crap all over the place >grin< sort of like a bad storm.


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## bbrooks (Jan 3, 2007)

Perhaps we should change from trickle-down economics to trickle-up. Providing the lower and middle classes with the tax breaks and money would increase their spending. This in turn would help the big employers, as they sell their goods (cars, houses, whatever). Alas, this likely will not happen as many will say it is not capitalism. However, the previous model is not working well at the moment either.


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## mmh (Mar 17, 2008)

Well, gee, now since the purchase of a private jet was controversial and hopefully stopped, maybe those monies can be used to purchase really important things, like custom made wood items . . . That money would spread a litter further.

As flawed as the Stimulus Package may be, I'd like to hear some realistic suggestions as to what you would like to see done. There's a lot of complaining but what about some feasible ideas?


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## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)

I'm not sure about the economy, but I'd be really stimulated by about 3000 bft of exotic hardwoods free and clear, sitting in my garage


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## oldworld124 (Mar 2, 2008)

why only go for 3000 bft I think we all deserve 1 trillion bft divided by 8,000 lumberjocks and we can keep busy for a few years.


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## bbrooks (Jan 3, 2007)

How about some large tax breaks or tax refunds on such things as tools, materials, etc. If the tax break is greater than your taxes, then you get the actual difference as a refund. If a first time home buyer can get an $8000 tax break, why not the same amount for the small workshops. If your taxes for the year were $5000 for your business, then you would receive a $3000 check back for the difference. With all the small businesses out there buying things, a lot of retails would be moving merchandise. This would allow them to buy more, keep people employed, etc. Of course, vehicles would be allowed as well, so the auto dealers would start moving cars too. Incentives are a great motivator.


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## EEngineer (Jul 4, 2008)

A whole lotta BS from the Republicans here. What, would you have another 4 years of Bushonomics? Puh-leeze! The general decrease in government oversight is what caused this recession in the first place! And bringing our boys home from Iraq (who never should have been there in the first place) will immediately free up $14 billion a month! What the US has spent on 7 years war in Iraq is equal to the entire bailout (Bush's plus Obama's) so far.

As for the economic stimulus package; I agree with some of it. The infrastructure in this country does need to be improved, the people who will be doing that improvement are the same who are now hurting from the downturn in new construction and those people will be earning paychecks that will result in more spending in the economy. Tax breaks (the only alternative Republicans can ever come up with) don't do a damn bit of good for the man who doesn't have a job and isn't paying any taxes anyway.

However, I do not like the rhetoric in Washington that is turning the stimulus package into another social program. The notion that most of the stimulus should be steered only to blacks is racist in the extreme and should be squashed real quick!

Will it help? Yeah - it will shorten the crisis and lessen the severity. But we will be paying for it in terms of taxes and inflation for a looong time.


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## oldworld124 (Mar 2, 2008)

I call this the black reparation bill. Look at this before you judge.






I can will call this racism. Give me a break!!!

billions to ACORN and moveon.org (the communist george soros) etc. etc.

this is not a republican issue. This is just about financial socialism (redistribution of wealth) and government control. So, I am against large oppressive governments.

I'll tell you what. You donate YOUR money to these thieves. I prefer to keep mine and spend it the way I want.

as far as deficts go, we loose 4 times as much more per year to trade imbalances than the war in iraq and Afghanistan. Puh-Leeze get real. I don't ever hear about the 50 billion being sent every year to mexico by the illegals living here. This is financial welfare on a global basis. etc.


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## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)

hope it helps some …


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## brianinpa (Mar 16, 2008)

It will help a bunch if the new housing market picks up.


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## RusticBru (Feb 22, 2007)

WFC

Do your own thing. Art is freedom.

Peace!
Bruce


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## BassBully (Mar 8, 2007)

The stimulus package won't help. Sorry, can't keep this to 25 words. It won't help because it defeats simple logic. 1) We're in a recession because citizens aren't spending their money. 2) We're in this recession because we are a nation of debtors instead of savers and having more debt than savings…well that consequence is obvious. 3) The current barriers to spending are high costs, fear of job loss, and the lack of money because of debt.

So, the purpose of the stimulus package is to give money to banks and not people with the idea that banks will give loans to people in order to stimulate the economy. This is idiotic because it is the debt that is the problem in the first place. Not only that, the government itself is accruing debt to give out more debt. They're doing this in order to create jobs but you can't sustain jobs with paper money.

The solution is to create a mentality of saving. Add more oil to the supply chain to lower gas costs which will ultimately lower the price of goods like wood. Another way to lower costs is to lower the minimum wage to where it was before the recession. Meanwhile, bypass banks altogether and give the money back to the people for the sole purpose to pay off debt. Paying off debt will increase discretionary spending and more people will purchase our woodworking projects and other things.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Hey BassBully & EEngineer, I agree with the both of you. That bailout to the banks didn't do anything except save some big banks that were too big to fail. If they are too big to fail, they should stop the consolidations before they get that big. That is what anti-trust Act is all about. We should be guaranteeing the depositors, not the CEO's bonuses and stock holders. One of the banks in the first bail out put something like 150 million in a Japanese company!!!! That is outrageous!!! With US tax dollars!!!

When I was growing up in the 50s and 60s, some of the kid's dads supported their families with minimum wage jobs as farm labors. The proportions of the wealth have been warped completely out of line by inflation and the government policies of the last 25 years. Allowing the restrictions placed on the financial institutions after the great Depression to be lifted along with vast reductions of tax rates at the very top have caused this crisis. Too much cash to speculate on top of too much credit to finance leveraged speculation is the bottom line; it equals bubble economies with booms and busts. We didn't have that in the 50s and 60s.

Early in Bush 43 admin, they lifted restrictions which allowed a free for all in oil futures trading. This was done because Enron wanted to start its own oil exchange so it could manipulate oil the way they did electrical power before they collapsed. The result of that deregulation, the collapse of the dollar caused by Bush 43 deficits plus excessive amounts speculation by BANKing entities largely caused the oil spike last year. Looking at world demand, the price should have been falling last year instead of doubling, then redoubling!!

Bush 43 gave Bin Laden just what he wanted; US Armed Forces out of Saudi Arabia, a bankrupt America and $100 a barrel OIL!


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## ProbablyLost (Oct 7, 2008)

yes, if you need a loan, otherwise no. (I would explian except topomax used mine and 39 other jock's "25 words")


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## miles125 (Jun 8, 2007)

"" The general decrease in government oversight is what caused this recession in the first place!""

???? I don't get the "Not Enough Oversight" mantra. This is like suggesting you buying a table saw from me could be made better if we had a middleman getting a 38% cut just because he demands it and calling it "protective oversight". The problem is we have an anti capitalist media on a mission to build this ridiculous perception in peoples minds. Apparently it works like a charm on about 53% of the population.

My forebears came here on rickety ships at great risk to escape the oppressive middleman. The least i can do is accept the risk involved in free enterprise among free men, understanding its by far the lesser of two evils.


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## Gene01 (Jan 5, 2009)

*My forebears came here on rickety ships at great risk to escape the oppressive middleman. The least i can do is accept the risk involved in free enterprise among free men, understanding its by far the lesser of two evils.*

+1 X a bazillion

And Bassbully….another +1 X a bazillion.


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## NedB (Aug 21, 2008)

no more than anyone else


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## dalec (Oct 3, 2007)

All I know is that I have many friends who are unemployed, others who work on some form of commission and working for near minimum wage.

There are lots of opinion about what won't work and not a lot agreement about what might work. In the end what is good for the economy will benefit us all.

Dalec


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## RusticBru (Feb 22, 2007)

So come on!
One of Dan's tag words was humor.


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## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)

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## Bureaucrat (May 26, 2008)

It will help. We have never asked our government to solve our problems. Never should. But on occasion a hand up has helped us back on our path.


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## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)

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## Gene01 (Jan 5, 2009)

"t will help. We have never asked our government to solve our problems. Never should. But on occasion a hand up has helped us back on our path. "

It's when the government FORCES their "help" and makes me pay for it that frightens me.


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## woodyoda (Dec 7, 2008)

The whole trigger to this is….1978 Judge Brenner (D) eliminated the Usury Law…that said no money can be lent for more than 10% INTEREST…..bank deregulation 1980 ( also Democrats under Carter) 1982 Law passed allowing huge prepayment penalties, variable loans….etc (passed by Democrat Congress over Reagan veto.)
SOLUTION…..bring back the Usury Law…stop greed in it's path. So people can know the limits n their house and credit card payments…..That would be a good start…......................yoda


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## LSUWoodworker (Feb 12, 2009)

This stimulus will be an epic fail. only those who contribute the least will benefit the most.


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## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)

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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I like your cartoon, Dan. It pretty well sums up the proceedings and situation that is in process.


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## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)

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## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

There is very little difference between a pessimist and an optimist if you wait long enough they will both be right and both extremes are very dangerous, but a comedian you can always trust.


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## Gene01 (Jan 5, 2009)

Laugh, and the world laughs with you. Cry, and your face gets wet.


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## CharlieM (Mar 28, 2008)

*"I sincerely believe… that the principle of spending money to be paid by posterity under the name of funding is but swindling futurity on a large scale."-Thomas Jefferson to John Taylor, 1816. *


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

If it weren't so tragic, it would be funny. This disaster of epic proportion will eventually kill more Americans than any terrorist ever will as elderly Americans choose between food, shelter and medicine. Never has there been a greater attack in the homeland since Sherman cut his 60 mile wide swath from the Mississippi to the Atlantic sea shore to end the Civil War. The lack of oversight on criminals, who with unconscionable greed, have destroyed one of the greatest liberations of mankind in the history of the world.


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## LocalMac (Jan 28, 2009)

As long as America remains a two party system we'll always struggle. I voted for Bush when I was a young Republican and saw my vote betrayed by the 'trickle down' theory. If I hang out at the feet of the rich they might drop a few coins and then I'm rich! This time I voted for Obama because during the campaign he was offering ideas while McCain and his 'pit bull' were too busy insulting and not offering their own ideas. We need to start looking at candidates and not parties. The blame is getting us no where. I'd vote for a Republican again if I like their ideas. I think it might work if we give it a chance. Who knows. It can't be any sillier than our ability to create piece in the middle east! hahahahahahahaahhahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

*Lumberjocks in 2012!*


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

You can call it blame or identifying the guilty. Either way, as long as the people who got us here are running the program, we are in big trouble. The economy is based on demand from the bottom by those with reasonable wages. As long as the anti labor attitude exists nickel and diming the auto workers, for example, and letting billionaires get away with million dollar bonuses for running good companies into the ground, we are in a race to the bottom. People with subsistence incomes do not create demand for anything. Through out the history of the world, the masses have had subsistence incomes. In 200 years here in America, a large middle class developed in the 1760-1770 period paid for by free land. Again, in the post WWII, a large middle class developed. Arguably, there was a middle class in the 1920s, but it was only about 15% of the population, hardly enough to support the economy we are loosing today.


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## CedarFreakCarl (Apr 21, 2007)

Stimulus Package???? This is just me, but this not so hypothetical senario is akin to a typical family that is up to their proverbial a$$es in debt….you know, maxed out credit cards, a mortgage they can't afford and they get a pre-approved credit card in the mail and one spouse says to the other…....." Hey honey, we can take this and use it to "spend our way out of this." It's just piling on more of what got us here to start with. I'm no John McCain fan, but the term he coined " Generational Theft", is right on. It's just putting my child and grandchildren in hock for the rest of their lives and beyond. If you can't see this freight train of socialism that is bearing down on us, then I guess you're not looking at the same facts I am. The free market and the principles of the Constitution of the United States is what has has enabled this great country to endure WWI, WWII, the Great Depression and many other of the perversions of liberty which have tried to steal what is dear to the great people of the US….....Freedom, Liberty and the "Pursuit of Happiness". In the words of the great Margaret Thatcher…..."The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other peoples money." 
Ok…..I'm done.
PS…I know Dan posted this in the "Coffee Lounge" and that in his key words was "humor". Obviously this isn't very humorous to me. Oh….and damn….I went over 25 words. Ok, now I'm done, still pissed off, but done.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

There really is nothing funny about it, that is for sure!! Socialism is the Republican byword every time a regulation is mentioned. Our forefathers who regulated after the Great Depression would be turning over in their graves if they knew how the greedy fools summarily disassembled the safe guards they put in place. When I was in grammar and high school, they drilled into out heads it could never happen again. Beginning in 1978, the process started. This is not an R issue or a D issue, it is a money issue. As long as we are getting the best government money can buy, nothing will change. Until big bucks are out of politics, the future generations will be slaves and are doomed to life style subsistence.


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## Karson (May 9, 2006)

No


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## LocalMac (Jan 28, 2009)

I think part of the "cure" has to be the way we do business. I love buying American products and almost always try to do so even when I have to spend a few extra bucks. However in our present state buying stock in America has to take a back seat to shallow pockets. We need to keep jobs here and end tax breaks for those who continue sending jobs overseas. If you've ever called any type of Microsoft help line you know what I mean. I don't hate the guy from India with a thick accent. I hate The company that hired him and took food off of American plates. We also need to stop the unfair trade agreements we have with other nations especially China. Our debt equals their profit. And oh yeah, lighten up Lumberjocks.

*Lumberjocks in 2012!*


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I was just thinking how I started my career and worked in an America those under 40 have never even known.


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## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)

hope the 780 billion helps correct the steering on this big old boat … even a little nudge might make a difference


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

It wlil definitely help a lot of individuals in the short term. Help or hurt is anybody's guess at this point. Depends how much "toxic" debt is written off lowering the money supply vs. inflationary pressures of the 780 bilion debt increasing the money supply.


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## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)

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## wayner (May 11, 2008)

NO


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## bamasawduster (Jul 23, 2008)

I wooden think it will help a splinter group like this.


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## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)

thinkin' GARY nailed it !!!!


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## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)

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## trifern (Feb 1, 2008)

Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil, plus the condition of the economy, 
The Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.


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## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)

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## DannyBoy (Oct 26, 2007)

Two things to consider:

40% of the foreclosures last year happened in California, Arizona, Nevada, New York, and Florida. That is 5 states.

At the beginning of 2007, unemployment = 5%
Open an economics textbook and normal unemployment = 4%-6.5%
Our current unemployment = 8%
So, 3% have lost their jobs (not 8%). And we are only 1.5% above normal.

I'm not trying to down play how bad it is, I'm trying to be realistic. It isn't near as bad as so many in the media in politics want you to believe. DON"T PARTICIPATE IN THE RECESSION!


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## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)

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## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

What's so bad about house prices going down…maybe that is a good thing because my wages sure haven't gone up. Lets see oil prices have dropped, food prices are down, Truck prices have dropped. I'm begininng to like this recession stuff.


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## daltxguy (Sep 7, 2007)

No, unless your day job is running a big bank.


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## johnpoolesc (Mar 14, 2009)

the plan will work perfect.. larger goverment, more goverment control.. higher taxes for the people that creat jobs.. so they can cut payroll and raise prices to pay the extra taxes.. he promised change and no pork.. and he did change, he's already spent more money then all presidents ever.. and what did we buy?

a trillion bucks, stacked 20 feet high, and 20 feet wide in 100 dollar bills, will stretch 62 miles.. and he just pased the 3.4 trillion mark..

do you know one person that package will help? i do not


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I couldn't figure out how house prices got so high in the first place; then, they exposed the predatory lending and fradulent mortgage instruments that AIG insured. The recession is only those who have lost their jobs or 50% of their retirement nest egg. Everyone else is just fine. That's how it has always been. I doubt if it changes any time soon including the lack of intergity in the financial markets.


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## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)

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## johnnie52 (Mar 7, 2009)

To answer the original question…. there is no way any of the spending is going to help any of us lowly serfs.


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## HallTree (Feb 1, 2008)

For now it might look like it will help, but we are in for a very long wild ride, down hill. And who is to blame? We all are. It's called greed. All the way from the bottom of the ladder to the top.
'If it's wrong and everybody is doing it, it's still wrong'.
'If it's right and nobody is doing it, it's still right'.


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## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

Not all of use maxed out our credit cards or bought houses we could not afford. Many of us have done without. Many smart companies got ran over by aggressive companies who grew on credit. The greedy are out there having their asses saved with my grandkids taxes. Screw em….Wait it's me getting screwed again!


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## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)

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## HallTree (Feb 1, 2008)

Someone here said that maybe LumberJocks should try to get some of that money. No thanks! Once the goverment hands out the money then they will want control.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

The wonderful thing about about American business is if you make a lot of money it's your's, but if you loose a lot it is too bad for your creditors. Change your name and screw up the market for responsible businesses again!!


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## HallTree (Feb 1, 2008)

If you start a business, work all day for years and make a ton of money, our governent says you have to pay a penalty for being successful.


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## LocalMac (Jan 28, 2009)

We should pool our money together and donate it to the execs at AIG. I heard they might not get their bonuses. I feel bad for them. They work so hard at their jobs and they're left without private jets or trips to exotic places. It just breaks my heart. We should also try to help that Madoff guy. He tried to stop but he couldn't. There was too much pressure on him. God help United States of America Inc.


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## Madcow (Feb 25, 2009)

1. The marketplace is a cruel taskmaster but millions of people making millions of decisions every day is far better than a bureaucrat sitting in a room deciding who wins and who loses.

2. I understand that Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi plan to tell GM how to conduct their business. Oh, great, now we have clowns doing brain surgery.

3. Remember you only win when you behave in a manner consistent with those that write the laws. Do you really want to figure out how to put a 4×8 sheet of plywood on an electric run about?


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## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)

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## LocalMac (Jan 28, 2009)

_"2. I unders_tand that Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi plan to tell GM how to conduct their business. Oh, great, now we have clowns doing brain surgery"_

I don't know who best person for the job would be but I do know it's not the execs at GM. Someone needs to tell them how to run their business. Giving GM bailout money and letting the execs keep their jobs is like giving cake to a fat kid! For 20 years they've proven they don't know what good business practices are. I'm sure their next smart move is to buy Hummer if it's still on the market!


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## Madcow (Feb 25, 2009)

Gm doesn't need to buy Hummer, they already own it, have for several years.

But you miss my point, do we want the political class telling us how to run every aspect of our lives?

The political class just couldn't keep their hands off the marketplace. I don't believe businesses going bankrupt is necessarily bad. They want the good side of a free market but want to escape the downside. And does anyone doubt that the regulators will make GM build more cars that we don't want to buy?


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## miles125 (Jun 8, 2007)

I feel American automobile makers pain. Just imagine how a piece of furniture would turn out designed by congress and built by workers with a perpetual feeling that theres a management conspiracy to screw them.


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## GaryC (Dec 31, 2008)

Gothe said….."Under communism man exploits man. Under capitolism, the exact opposite is true"


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Okay Topamax - You hooked me - 
you want to bring back the 70-90% tax brackets

Under the new plan the people who pay nothing increases from 40 to 52%. So now more than half the population pays no taxes (Actually many will get a check) and you believe that the problems are solved once we start taking 90% of someones income that fraction above 3Million/year??

If we ONLY taxed the offensively rich - Those making 75K/year and above at 100% there is not enough revenue coming in to cover the 3.6 trillion budget.

And hey it will be just like the Carter administration, 14% home mortgage rates and permanant double digit inflation as well unemployment….Sounds Utopian!
Already there are bus tours from China touring California to buy up the forclosed houses -the left coast is on the auction block but a tax increase will fix it??


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Yes, putting a 70% tax bracket on those making 2 or 3 million per year would go along way towards straightening out the balloon economy caused by excessive capital bidding up the prices in the equity and real estate markets. Why would the stock market ever support profit / earning ratios in the 20 to 40 range? This is insane. As Henry Blodgent of Merrill Lynch said sell the fools garbage for $200 per share. The highest tax brackets aren't so much a revenue raising issue as they are an economic cycle leveling tool.

One result of the cutting of the 70 plus percent highest tax brackets has been the ballooning of upper management compensation. It has risen from 10 to 20 times the lowest paid workers wage to as high as 400 times. Starting in the 90's, upper management has looted the public equity markets and moved about 40% of that equity from the public's hands into their own pockets. This has been the greatest capital redistribution in the history of the world. It would not have happened without the tax policy change. Currently, nearly 100% of the publicly traded companies profit is being skimmed off by management. This is the financial environment into which retirement funds are being invested. Of course, there are those who say the share holders should revolt. It has been tried and their voices are largely ignored by management. Share holder votes are routinely declared as merely advisory.

Pre-Regan economic policy would go a long way towards restoration of the middle class. The high inflation and interest rates of the late 70s are always cited as the penalty for returning. One really needs to look back at the causes to the inflationary pressures of excessive barrowing to fund the Viet Nam War followed by Nixon's wage/price controls.

The Regan "tax cut" on the wealthy also included the world's greatest tax increase. Social Security and Medicare taxes on the lowest wage earners up through the middle class were doubled. As general revenues fell, the Social Security Trust Fund was moved into the General Fund to make up for the lost revenue. Credit was loosened to finance an economy faltering because of the effects of the war on wages plus that tax increase on the working class. Usury laws were repealed allowing banks to charge up to 30% interest rates on the working poor.

Millionaires and billionaires do not create jobs because they have money in their pockets. Labors become millionaires and billionaires because they start companies, create a product or service with a demand and have to hire help to service their customers. Until this whole mess turns back around to the policies of the 50s & 60s which created the greatest economy the world has ever seen, the race to the bottom will continue. Average people with good wages create the demand in the economy.

Trade policy has been a disaster too with the export of jobs becoming our #1 export item. Protectionist policies are always cited as the cause of the Great Depression. Trade was only 2% of our gross national product at that time. Obviously, it didn't happen, but that is another issue. There are many more regulatory issues put in place after the Depression to prevent financial institutional gambling that need to be restored.


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## Madcow (Feb 25, 2009)

I would disagree with your suggestion that millionaires and billionaires don't create jobs. Case in point was the tax on luxury items, I think, in the Carter years. As it turns out the luxury tax led to yacht builders closing shop when the orders didn't come in and the workers lost their jobs. Isn't the American Dream to be successful and live comfortably? If I had a bucket of money right now, I'd buy more woodworking tools and truckers, sales people, stock boys, cashiers, etc. would be paid even if the tools happened to be made in another country. For that matter, If I had a million bucks right now, I'd build a new home and a woodworking shop. All of that creates jobs.


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## Gene01 (Jan 5, 2009)

I don't give a rat's behind what anyone makes in salary or other compensation. Just leave me to make as much as I want. 
As far as AIG or any other company compensating their execs with bail out $$, that represents 1/10th of 1% of the bail out $. Even that minuscule amount of our $ is reprehensible but, not nearly as grossly despicable as the stimulus bill and the last budget. 
American households have lost almost 30 trillion of wealth since December of 08. And, we ain't seen the bottom yet. This unconscionable government spending spree will inexorably lead to confiscatory taxes, thereby making it impossible for anyone alive today or, 50 years from today, to earn or amass anything close to the wealth possible just a few years ago. 
We all are being raped. Pillaging is next.


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## GaryC (Dec 31, 2008)

Dang Dan….couldn't you have started a more friendly conversation? Soap boxes are nothin but fire starters. I'm goin back to the shop


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Anyone can bring a specific example of a minor exception for any statement. The fact is the majority of jobs in the US are created by small business. Most are struggling to keep the doors open month to month. Bill Gates didn't start as a milionaire, but he is the richest man on earth. I didn't start with anything but a wife who was a homemaker and 2 kids to feed, but I always made payroll (some how??). The richest people I have personally known have made it on the backs of peons which is something I have never been able to bring myself to even consider.

I certainly do not agree with the 3 trillion that has been spent in the last 6 months. The Sherman anti-trust act should have been used to keep those who are too big to fail from getting too big to let fail. The issues leading up to the curent situation have roots in policy changes 25 years ago. We have had 3 bubbles financed by too much money driving the markets, 87, Y2K and today. Without that transfer of publicly held assets to private hands, those bubbles would never have been as severe as there were or are. The current situation will not be resolved until we see middle class America return to financial stability. In 1980, the average family had a 43% debt to equity ratio. Today it is in the neighborhood of 150%. You can't double the SS taxes, cut real wages in half over a 25 year period, finance the economy with easy credit and expect it to continue.

The bottom line is corpo greed taking all the profit, the export of family wage jobs and easy credit to finance a consumer economy will not work. In the 1920s there was a middle class of about 15% of the population. After WWII, it grew to the majority of the population. (Sorry, I don't have that % figure on the top of my head.) In the 80 and 90s, the middle class began to shrink. How do you propose to get back to where we were if not reversing the policies that killed the middle class?


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## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)

humor please .. keep it light










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## Gene01 (Jan 5, 2009)

Agreed Topmax! Well, mostly anyway. 
I certainly agree that you can't borrow and spend your way out out of debt. Your tag line says it all and, it applies to government as well as individuals. Except for whom is enslaved. It's us'ns either way.


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## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)

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## Gene01 (Jan 5, 2009)

Thanks Dan. 
An exact description of this asinine whining and caterwauling on capitol hill over these AIG bonuses.


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## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)

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## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)

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## unknownwoodworker (Apr 5, 2008)




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## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)

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## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)

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## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)

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## Gene01 (Jan 5, 2009)

They all said that we'd elect a black president when pigs fly.

Now, 100 days later….....swine flu.


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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

I'm not young enough to know everything

Bob


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## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)

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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

or at least, shower with a friend!

Bob


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## baller (Nov 14, 2008)

hopefully this will cause a libertarian uprise, which i think could quite possibly happy…people are starting to see that folks from both sides of the aisle are as crooked as the roots on the trees we cut down. it's just starting to get popularized (by fox, thank god there's still one major network left that's not extremely leftist, lol) by the "tea parties" and the fiscal wakeup tour with david walker, former US comptroller general…this is my opinion, but i'm just a concerned 24 year old young male former/future small business owner without a degree living in one of the highest costs of living places in the country, so what do i know…lol


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## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)

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## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)

George Carlin's Solution to Save Gasoline

Bush wants us to cut the amount of gas we use. The best way to stop using so much gas is to deport 11 million illegal immigrants! That would be 11 million less people using our gas. The price of gas would come down.

Bring our troops home from Iraq to guard the border. When they catch an illegal immigrant crossing the border, hand him a canteen, rifle and some ammo and ship him to Iraq. Tell him if he wants to come to America, then he must serve a tour in the military. Give him a soldier's pay while he's there and tax him on it. After his tour, he will be allowed to become a citizen since he defended this country. He will also be registered to be taxed and be a legal patriot. This option will probably deter illegal immigration and provide a solution for the troops in Iraq and the aliens trying to make a better life for themselves. If they refuse to serve, ship them to Iraq anyway, without the canteen, rifle or ammo.

Problem solved!

George Carlin


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## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)

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## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)




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## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)




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## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)




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## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)




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## SteviePete (May 10, 2009)

I am stimulated each payday to the tune of $11.52 (lower withholding). Just a few more short weeks and I'll have enough for another 2nd Amendment trinket (axe). Barry, always thinking of us classy woodlanders. Don't like my post? Go plane a board. sp


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## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)

cash for clunkers !


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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

Well they are also asking us to recycle! Will it never end?


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## willy3486 (Feb 5, 2009)

One thing I will say is we need to respect for each other on this subject even if the person shares the exact opposite view. Two subjects I have seen destroy forums are reliegion and politics, and this site is not too big to die due to disagreements fueled by anger. As far as it may or may not work depending on how its done. There are two basic sides in DC, Dems and GOP. Until both sides grow up and put partisian sides on the sideline it is business as usual and will cause more trouble. I told people in the last election it was like being a death row inmate voting one or the other party. It doesn't matter if you choose to die by lethal injection or electric chair if you are a death row inmate you are still going to be killed by the system. Same thing with voting for D's or GOP as long as they still follow the same old song and dance. It has amazed me in the last few years how people put blinders on to their party side and do not acknowledge any wrongdoing but then go on a witch hunt on the other side on the smallest infraction,mistake or misspoken statement of the other side. I think the parties benefit from the US citizens fighting with each other over pollitics, because when we do we don't demand the leaders to do whats right. Since the equal time for sides was taken down for news media in the 80s I think it has allowed these so called "newscasters" to breed their brand of hate like cockroaches gone wind, and there are these "newscasters " on both sides. Unlike many I know I have been a "victim" of this economy over 6 years now. But I did not expect anyone to bail me out. I was out of work for about a year and a half before I got the job I have now that started at about 60% of the preveous pay I had. It pays the bills and if it doesn't pay better in the long run I hope to be able to go on to a better one when the economy starts to pick up. If we were to include the people like me that are employed but making a lot less and also the ones out of work but no longer drawing I think it would show the worse conditions since the depression.

This whole mess didn't start due to our current president or last, It happened because we as Americians did not demand better from our elected officials and voted these jokers in.For example the "stimulus package for wall st" was started by President Bush and continued by president Obama. So both had a hand in it. Today 1/3 of total pay goes to Upper CEOs in this country and that percentage continues to rise. The country has allowed the two parties to focus on two main issues while ignoring all other issues of the country. Until we demand the elected officials to work for all, not just the super rich,lobbyists,corporations, and special interests we will have a mess. 
So for me I think it may if they put Americians as a whole first. But if it becomes a party line or special interest project I think it will be another in a long line of political failures that cost a lot.


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## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)




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