# Sawstop vs Powermatic Table Saws



## tooldad (Mar 24, 2008)

Our 30 year old unisaw finally bit the dust. We repaired the motor in December, for it only to last 3 months and burn up again.

Finally my administrators told me to get quotes for a new table saw. Naturally being a shop teacher I want a Sawstop. Here's the dilema, identical saws: Powermatic 5hp = $2900. Sawstop 5hp = $4300. Grizzly 5hp = $2500.

Grizzly is good, but we only get about 10 years from grizzly tools in our environment.

My coworker brought up a valid point. I can get reviews and testimonies from powermatic saws lasting 20+ years. However I cannot get that from sawstop, because they simply haven't been in business that long.

I need some valid points beyond the safety of the sawstop to convince admin to spend the extra $1500.

Thanks for any help or input.


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## bubinga (Feb 5, 2011)

I would say buy a powermatic, probably because I own one ,so I am biased,but the only reason to spend the extra money would be for the safety of the sawstop.
The sawstop is a nice saw but definitely not better than a Powermatic


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## roundguy (Jan 19, 2011)

I'm biased, as I've had my Powermatic for close to 20 years, and it runs the same as the day I bought it.

Since you're teaching kids, I'd hate to tell a parent of a student that cut off a finger that you saved $1500. The legal fees would exceed $1500. If Carlos Osorio's case sets any kind of precedence, I might prefer to side with safety.


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## knotscott (Feb 27, 2009)

As much as I hate this about our current society, and as much as I despise Gass for promoting it in our society, lawsuits would influence my decision if I were potentially liable for an injury. The price differences seem like peanuts compared to litigation costs.


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## REK (Aug 30, 2009)

Saw Stop might actually help lower your insurance cost over the years,
if that were the case the higher price might prove to be an actual cost
savings…Dosen't hurt for the teacher to research…


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## WinterSun (Apr 3, 2011)

Just one quick point regarding the longevity of the Powermatic: you can absolutely get plenty of people to attest to the longevity of PM66s, etc., but the PM2000 is in the same boat as the SawStop. Both are fairly new models made in southeast Asia. One carries a weighty name which has been tarnished somewhat under its current ownership. Given where the saw will be used, I'd push very hard for the SawStop, even though I can't stand (and maybe because of?) the way Gass is pushing it through the lawsuit culture.


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

I'm a high school teacher. I can't imagine my kids (mathematics) using my Unisaw. If they cut off two fingers, they'd only be able to count to eight. 

I'd get the SawStop.


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## TJU (Feb 16, 2011)

Maybe to better accomidate his learning style you could switch from the binary system to the base 8 system 

I have a newish table saw but if I were to get a new one I would get a saw stop. The reason is that it is a good machine and I have kids that will be old enough to start using it in a few years.

Tim


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

The Powermatic is a no-brainer for me. Take the extra $2000 that you'd be spending on black lacquer and lobbyists and buy a Shark Guard and overhead boom. And a REALLY nice push stick. I'm about at the end with the Sawstop stuff. Like Knottscot mentions, the difference is price is a moot point and they are both clearly quality saws. I pay over $80,000 a year in insurance and I don't own a SawStop. I wouldn't take one for free after all of this nonsense. Quoting the emergency room price of finger reattachment is simple propaganda to me. If it'll get a lawyer off your back for even a minute, fork out for the Sawstop. I'm disgusted by myself for saying that. Not meaning to offend anyone, I'm just tiring terminally of the SawStop argument.


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## desimas (Feb 1, 2011)

I would ask the Admin what price they would put on a childs fingers. If it is less than the $1500 difference, get the Powermatic, if its is more than the $1500 difference, get the SawStop. One incident with one child coming in contact with that blade and the sawstop will have paid for itself. There is all the justification you need.

I have a 42 year old unisaw and it is a great machine. But if I ever decide to replace it, it will be with a SawStop for the safety.


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## LeeBarker (Aug 6, 2010)

I'd suggest you talk to other shop teachers who might have, or rather undoubtedly have, faced the same question.

I will PM you the name of a local one who has two SSs. He may be able to help you sort through The Ask.

Kindly,

Lee


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## Minorhero (Apr 8, 2011)

I agree that the powermatic saw of today is not the same as the powermatic model 66 of by gone years. It uses different metals and it is made under different conditions.

Everyone is assuming that if you have a sawstop you won't cut your fingers off. Of course if you have a non-sawstop saw you will still not cut your fingers off if you don't stick your fingers into the blade. Teaching kids how to avoid dangerous situations is worth a lot more then a brake feature.

From what I hear the saws are pretty comparable in quality, one costs a lot more and has an off switch on a safety feature that when tripped destroys the saw blade and can be tripped from things other then cutting fingers.


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## Sgt374 (Apr 19, 2011)

I PERSONALLY BELIEVE SAFETY SHOULD BE YOUR NUMBER 1 PRIORITY ABOVE ALL ELSE ESPECIALLY WHEN OTHER PEOPLES CHILDREN ARE INVOLVED.


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## DonH (Sep 8, 2010)

In your operating environment the Saw Stop is the clear choice to me - safety management with young people who are learning responsibilities, procedures and the need to stick to them is hard enough. Saving one students fingers would be all the payback you need.

In aviation we have a saying, if you think safety is expensive - try an accident.

Just my two cents

Don


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

It's hard to imagine that-if each and all of us could separate the product from the inventor, and from the questionable practices that he's used, in an effort to increase his market share-we wouldn't wholeheartedly recommend the SawStop for the school environment.

Most of us buckle up our kids, in the car, even though we know that avoiding a collision is OUR responsibility, as drivers.

Most of us probably STILL err on the side of caution, where kids are concerned.

I think I'd err on the side of caution, in THIS situation, too.

Good luck !


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## dbhost (Jul 20, 2009)

I am another one that is to the soul disgusted by Steve Gass and his using the courts to push his business agenda. HOWEVER, in the environment that you are in, and knowing that kids tend to be less than fully attentive to the task at hand, with the safety device available, there is something to be considered for you personally. Now that you have publicly asked the question. IF you chose to go with the Powermatic instead of the "safer" SawStop, and a child does abbreviate one of his / her digits on the saw, not only would the school have to face a lawsuit, but chances are REALLY good that you could end up being held personally liable and having to defend yourself against a law suit…

You gotta love lawyers….

I have to swallow a bit of vomit here to say this, but I'd get the SawStop just to keep the Scheisters away from you and your family…


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

I think I gulped a bit of that vomit, too, DB. One day, we'll be able to entirely avoid personal responsibility, whether in the setting of saftey or otherwise. It'll be a grand day, right? I was taught by my Father at a young age how to handle a gun. He also taught me to fear powertools. He's long since past but the lessons are fresh. Buy the freakin SawStop, help a JD out.


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## agallant (Jul 1, 2010)

Don't forget that everytime someone trips the break in the sawstop it is going to cost you for the break and new blade, with that said it is a small price to pay. Here is the other delemia. If you don't get the saw stop and someone gets hurt will they be able to sue you because you passed on the sawstop.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Forrest Woodworker II, arguably the most popular blade among our pals here.

http://www.amazon.com/Forrest-WW10407100-Woodworker-10-Inch-40-tooth/dp/B0000223VR/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1305307450&sr=8-2

That'll get old on wet wood. Sadly, like agallant mentions, you've already kind of put yourself out there. I see no escape other than SawStop at this point. You….will….do….as….we…command… Good luck, Tooldad and I hope you take my critique as it's meant, in stride I respect your situation more than you can imagine.


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## Grandpa (Jan 28, 2011)

I don't own a SawStop, a Unisaw or a Powermatic 66. I had a Unisaw in my school shop when I was in high school. I always thought it was the best until I used a Powermatic. I liked that Powermatic. At that point I was teaching in our local technical school. I had adults and I was always amazed at how careless they were. You think kids scare you, just try a class of adults. Our schools in my state don't have to take the lowest bid. They take the lowest and best bid. Do you have a choice with someone's safety other than your own. No one here thinks you have that choice so you don't have a choice about the saw you will buy. I think Neil echoed the sentiments of this web site and that is no one really cares for the man that developed the SawStop because of his tactics. We will be able to hold this line only so long then we will be forced to either buy from him or the other companies will have to come around to the govt's way of thinking. As long as no one is responsible for thier actions then the govt has control. I did read another shop teacher's response on here a couple of months ago. He did say they tripped the saw once when it was new and years had passed with no more problems. BTW our local technical school has a new saw in place of one of the 2 powermatic 66 saws they had before. It is a Grizzly! The teacher likes it so ….who knows? I am still looking for that pm66 he tossed out. lol I don't own a Grizzly either. 
Why did you get the motor rebuilt instead of buying a new motor. Are you sure you don't have a problem with low voltage or something like that? There still might be another option.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Gramps, if you find that PM66, give me a call & I'll help you pick it up.


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## tooldad (Mar 24, 2008)

the motor was completely rebuilt in December 2010. It took them nearly a month to return. Our staff certified electrician has checked the voltage into the building. The motor began smoking in April, and then tripped the breaker. It tries to start up then trips the breaker again.

They are exploring the option of repairing again. It is back at the shop. However I have discovered out of our 3 saws, this one is a 2hp, and the other 2 are 3hp. A little underrated for its intended duty.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

You're really stepping up the horses. Are you convinced that your feed is adequate? You're in the big saw market and I'm quite jealous. We could turn this into an electrical AND SSvPM argument yet


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## hairyknuckler (Oct 28, 2009)

We have a saw stop here at the school I work at. It is a quality machine and we have not had any major mechanical issues from it. It does take a powerfull dust collection system to keep the electronics clean. Ours is not powerfull enough and we are forced to clean the electronics quite often. If you don't keep them clean, the machine will not operate. Other than that it is a good saw. I would go with a saw stop in a school setting just to avoid the lawsuits. In my own shop I would get the Powermatic hands down. The quality is good and the maintainence is much less to deal with rather than the sawstop. Either way they are both quality machines.


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## MBHaysKS (Feb 14, 2010)

I am an Industrial Arts teacher teaching woodworking and carpentry and I replaced the 2 PM66 saws that we had here with SawStop machines. As far as the quality of the machines, I prefer the SawStop, but remember I am comparing them with machines that had been used in a school setting since the mid 60's. There was only one guard for the 2 saws and one of them was needing the arbor changed because the nut would work its way loose over time. We have had 1 finger save since we bought the first one. He got his finger up next to the side of the blade and tripped it. If the cartridge is sent back to SawStop so they can read the data off of it they will send you a new one, but this is only if it was tripped by a finger. They could even tell me just how many teeth of the blade touched his finger. I was told when we purchased the first one that if you trip one to have the blade sent in with your dull ones to be checked for flatness before reusing. When you take the brake off of the blade it will pull about 3 teeth off of the blade. The last one (accidental trip) the blade looked fine and other than the couple missing teeth was unharmed. During my planning period I decided to put it back in the machine and try it. It worked just like before. The way that I figure is if this machine keeps me from making a phone call to some boy or girl's mother telling them that they just cut part of a finger off I think it is worth every cent. As a parent of both a son and a daughter I will purchase a SawStop as soon as I build my shop that way they are both safe from one of the hazards in the shop.

On a separate note, any time I have had to call them with questions they have been wonderful and knowledgeable to deal with. Actually I had a question for them and they said the best person to answer the question was Steve Gass. Like him or not I believe he made a great addition to the woodworking industry.

If anyone has any other questions please let me know and I will explain better.

Sorry for the long post.

Matt Brown
Otis-Bison Junior/Senior High School
Otis, KS


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## ChrisForthofer (Jan 1, 2010)

I understand the safety thing and litigation costs, however I'd hate to think that there is going to be a generation of woodworkers out there with a false sense of security in the table saws they run. Everything is dangerous, no matter the activity. People can and do die/severely injure themselves in the most mundane daily routine type things.

I consider it to be something akin to making a critical piece of a project, if you know that you have a spare rough blank for that piece you (i.e. a blade brake) are less likely to be as careful because you can always reach for that spare. Keep in mind that most of us here have been running saws without any other safety devices than the ones that came with the saw and the one between our ears.


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## HawkDriver (Mar 11, 2011)

This post got me thinking back to my HS shop days. At my high school the wood/metal shops and FFA classrooms shared a seperate wing of the school. Being that the shops were all right together students sometimes would intermingle between classrooms. One day an FFA student brought over some wet bamboo. He walked in, went to the tablesaw, fired it up, held the bamboo in a bunch and attempted a crosscut on the saw. One of the teeth caught unexpectedly and pulled his hand into the blade. I am not super familiar with the sawstop but would expect that the green bamboo would have tripped the brake and saved his fingers. Teaching students safety is one thing. Ridding a student of "stupid" is another. With Industrial arts going to the wind in alot of communities across the country, the last thing this valuable class needs is a lawsuit to encourage the powers that be to decrease funding for these programs even further. My vote is for the Sawstop.


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## DonH (Sep 8, 2010)

Good point Hawk - we dont need any more bad press. Especially as much of the press talk through their hats - what they dont know they speculate on and then quote each other thus creating "fact". I dont know about any of you others, but when I read or hear about news items I know something about, there is a big gap between the "news" and reality. I wish more reporters would stick to "reporting" rather than "making" the news.

Just a little rant - sorry (not).

Don


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## bubinga (Feb 5, 2011)

Especially as much of the press talk through their hats - what they dont know they speculate on and then quote each other *thus creating "fact".*
Man !! your dead on here
The problem is, it is not fact


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## Woodmaster1 (Apr 26, 2011)

I have taught industrial arts for 36 years used pm table saw for 34 years. Because I was not teaching woodworking at the time they chose to get an under powered jet, when the pm went bad. I would have went with the saw stop. I only had one minor student accident in 36 years with the table saw 3 stitches and I am anal about safety. It does not make you careless because of the safety feature it is just another layer of safety.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

I'm very curious about that "risk compensation" thing.

The theory is … if you THINK you're safer … you are prone to taking additional risks.

That argument is offered, in the context of bicycle helmets-wearing vs. not wearing-alla time.

PERSONALLY (I can't emphasize that enough), I don't feel like I DO compensate for the perceived reduction in risk-whether it's…

- riding my bike, with my helmet on, or
- riding my motorcycle, with my helmet, and Kevlar riding suit on, or
- using my table saw, with ITS safety features, or
- driving my car, with multiple air bags, my seat belt on, and 100 passive safety devices, or
- driving a Smart Car, as opposed to a 1971 Cadillac Sedan de Ville.

So … I'm not sure *I* would be any less careful, using a SawStop.

I wonder how many others truly think they ARE less careful-for example: people who have switched FROM other cabinet saws TO a SawStop.

Just curious…..


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## JohnGray (Oct 6, 2007)

Think insurance…..have a talk with school's insurance person and see if a Saw Stop might lower you insurance premium. 
I don't own any of the 3 mentioned saws but if I were the teacher I would choose the Saw Stop.

My 2 cents FWIW.


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## reggiek (Jun 12, 2009)

Have you approached any of the manufacturers and asked if they would give you a reduced price for being a school? Most companies that I know would offer that…they get a bit of write off for their contribution…and the goodwill of helping out the schools. That may get the saws prices more closely grouped? Worth a try anyway.

I would tell them to go with the sawstop on purely safety issues….let them decide to take the "risk" if they chose price over safety…I know several companies that will only buy 20" plus monitors so they won't run the risk of someone suing them for eye strain (cheaper to put out extra for the monitor then pay higher workers comp)....safety is always cheaper in the long run.

I have a grizzly TS myself…would have purchased a saw stop had they been available when I was needing a new TS saw….Most TS are alike….same basic idea….I like the idea of the saw stop myself….I would not change my caution around the saw….but I do like the fact there is a back up system should I make a dumb mistake.


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## Beginningwoodworker (May 5, 2008)

I would get a SawStop for the schools sake. But other than that I would rebuild the Unisaw with a new motor,and other parts it needs. Or get a Powermatic 66 or the new Delta Unisaw.


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## Pimzedd (Jan 22, 2007)

Tooldad, I retired as an administrator in the Career Ed. Dept in Dallas in August. I was in the process of replacing all nine table saws in all schools with Sawstop saws. Bought five last year. My replacment bought the other four this year. All the teachers loved them, especially the piece of mind. No student operation problems. No trips.

I believe that any administrator/teacher that purchases any saw other than the Sawstop is leaving the school open for a lawsuit if a student gets hurt. I would suggest you recommend in writing (preferavbly by email and keep a copy) that the school purchase the Sawstop. That will protect you if the school purchases some other saw.

Be sure and get a spare module for when it does get tripped.


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## DLCW (Feb 18, 2011)

The one thing I worry about a Sawstop is if you teach people (children or adults) that the tablesaw will not hurt them because of the auto-stop mechanism, we are teaching a bad precedence in that ALL power tools should be respected and treated with great caution. If people know that the saw will protect them, will they use less caution around the machine? Will they take this same level of caution to the next powertool, not aware that it doesn't have the same safety features as the tablesaw? Will people just become lazy and not put safety as #1 around power tools? The sawstop is the only power tool I know of with this safety capability. No other power tool will forgive any level of lack of attention.

The lesson children and adults need is that you have to pay 110% to what you are doing around any power tool or get the [email protected]#$ out of the shop. Accidents happen because of human error. Working with humans to know their limits and have a high level of respect for things that will harm them is the way to progress.

Anyone, but a Darwin Award nominee, would not run toward a lion or bear. Teach people that these power tools are lions and bears.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

Personally, I would buy a Euro slider and teach the kids to use
the table saw only for dimensioning sheet goods and crosscutting
and using other methods for straight-ripping solid woods. I feel
that's a safer protocol until one gains experience and a sense of
the real dangers. Sawstop won't stop kickback.

The N. American table saw is barbaric compared to the European
style saws, Sawstop or not.

But for a school… it's hard to argue with the Sawstop.

I don't use a standard tablesaw much. They are versatile but
over-rated and inherently hazardous and there are always
accuracy issues unless using a power feeder or an experienced
adult operator.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

And I still don't think believe Chicken Little that The sky is falling, the sky is falling! 
Safe practices and awareness trump SS every time IMO.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

"Safe practices and awareness trump SS every time IMO."

I think this is a trap that a lot of people are falling into-thinking that it IS an "either/or" proposition.

I don't think it is.

And … I particularly don't think that people who are teaching wood shop are suddenly going to abandon their decades of safety lectures, and tell the kids that they no longer have to be careful, at the table saw … just because it's a SawStop.

*Mike*: I *happened* to pick your quote, but I do NOT mean to single you out. I see LOTS of people saying this, or similar.

See my last post. Just because I buckle my seat belt, before I drive my car, DOESN'T MEAN that I don't ALSO use "safe practices and awareness." I just like the EXTRA measure of insurance the seat belt affords me.

Another analogy might be Law Enforcement Officers, and bulletproof vests. Why do I have the feeling that THEY encountered this SAME argument ? You can be sure that somebody-not sold on the idea OF bulletproof vests-said that-anybody wearing them is likely to forget everything they learned, and rush into every dangerous situation like John Rambo.

I doubt that's what actually happened, though…..


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

Being kids, and remembering some of the dumbasses I went to school with I can see someone testing the saw stop out…. I knew a kid in high school that would put cig butts out in his motorcycles gas tank to look cool, till his dad beat his ass for clogging up the fuel filter.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

No offense taken Beener. I'm a big boy and can take it…

The invention of the SS *DID NOT* make all other table saws ever built unsafe, but Steve Gass would have you believe that it does.

Walking across the street is unsafe. So should we require overhead walkways at all intersections? Or prohibit anyone from crossing the street at all? I didn't think so…

It is funny how the *"Haves"* who can afford all the good stuff try to mandate (or guilt others into doing so) that the *"Have Nots"* have/buy the same stuff. With what? Blood from a turnip? And if a *"Have Not"* cannot come up with the $$$ to do as the *"Haves"* do then surely that is a moral failure and an err in judgement by those *"Have Nots"*! Yeah,... sure…


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## Grandpa (Jan 28, 2011)

I rode a motorcycle when I was younger and I ALWAYS used a helmet. I know people that have been killed wearing helmets too. I will continue to use a helmet if I ride. Most of you guys probably are too old (no offense youngsters) to take the hunter safety course. I have set through it several times with grandkids and other kids that I adopted for awhile. They teach us that a safety is a mecahnical device that sometimes works. Well a SawStop is a mechanical and electrical device that sometimes works…...I am not sticking my finger in that thing believing it will stop the blade. Not going to happen over here. 
Bertha, I did find that saw. I called about it….$500 and can run it in his garage. Supper was ready (can you tell I live in the south) so we ate and I went over there. They told me the guy that was pulling out of the driveway when I pulled in had bought it, paid for it and was going after help to load it.

AAARRRGGGHHHH $500!!!

When I was in Industrial Arts in high school the instructor asked another kid to help me make a blind cut. Making that cut he decided he could back the stock up just a bit. Well you all know you don't do that and it pulled his left hand into the blades cutting the backs of his fingers many times. Nothing serious fortunately but it left an impression on me. I will never for get it and I am adament about safety.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

So much good stuff above and I'm getting tired, too, GaryP. You want to get hurt, get careless at the jointer; they injure more experienced woodworkers than the TS. I'm straight-up terrified of mine, just like any other tool with multihorsepower spinning blades. To follow Neil, I suppose if they made a bicycle helmet that was "in fact" better and cost 10X as much, I'd buy one. I hate SawStop for immature, petty reasons, but I don't see much of an alternative in this setting. I also hate Veritas planes for no good reasons whatsoever. I reserve the right to be a jerk


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

garyp

Anything is better than Dodge LOL


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## veneerguy (May 11, 2011)

The question I would ask myself is how many accidents have you had with your old saw? if the answer is none your pretty safety conscience already. the table saw is a pretty important machine for producing quality work. why not but a saw that will never need to be replaced? what saw is that?

Oliver 88. older style. can also be gotten for less than the names mentioned above and in my IMHO is a far superior machine. castings, accuracy , ect….

buy once.

just a fast search turned up this

http://www.machineryassociates.com/Machine.php?id=1531


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Oliver. Anyone else notice how this name is cropping up? I've bee a fan forever.


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## Pimzedd (Jan 22, 2007)

Tooldad, I sent you a message here on Lumberjocks with my valid points for the purchase based on my experience as a shop teacher and vocational administrator. Hope they help. Let us know what the end result is.


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## bugsiegel (Dec 12, 2008)

those of us who learned to drive prior to ABS becoming standard equipment in a car would say that they probably would not have to do much thinking when they car slides in the less than perfect condition. That was part of the drivers education course. today's cars do the thinking for the driver both on breaking and acceleration.
Today's roads are are safer for that and the drivers are less skilled for that.
Whether we like it or not the decision is a no brainier, especially when someone else is spending the money.

It's just taking for ever for the price of this feature to drop to an affordable level. I believe if the patent holder worked harder to get his patent out to the masses rather than his saw, we'd all have this in our garage.


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## veneerguy (May 11, 2011)

But if you insist on Sawstop over Oliver or the others mentioned

http://www.machineryassociates.com/SawStop-CB53480-Machine-For-Sale-1923


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## bubinga (Feb 5, 2011)

When I was In high school in 1970 USA Michigan we had all General machines


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## DougC (Mar 10, 2011)

For the school - Sawstop. For your home shop, the New Delta Unisaw. And IMHO, nothing is better than a Dodge, except maybe a Chrysler : )


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## glassyeyes (Apr 14, 2009)

I'm more careful using the SawStop, I think. Partly because I'm cheap. I miscalculated the clearance on my aluminum miter gauge fence and set the darn thing off-$85 for the blade, $70 for the brake cartridge. OUCH!!


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## usnret (Jul 14, 2011)

No doubt about it Saw Stop is the one you should push for. Safety is the most important thing when using tools, especially when the liability comes into factor. The price of a saw Stop is way less than the stitches needed, let alone a whole finger or hand.


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## tooldad (Mar 24, 2008)

UPDATE!

We have a 5hp 3ph Left tilt sawstop. Once we decided to go sawstop the decision was between a professional and an industrial. I teach advanced woodworking, and we use the saw 7-8 months out of the school year, plus I do maint work in the summer. So the industrial version was the answer.

We had the sales rep come in this past friday on our professional development day and do the hotdog test. I invited all admin and several students also came in on their day off to see it.

It made my day when the foreheads raised and eyes got big on 3 different principals. No doubt in their mind we made the right purchase.

I also get brave and demonstrate kickback to the kids. Most want to see it for the thrill, but there is some that never have seen the potential for injury it can cause. With the riving knife on the sawstop, I cannot get kickback. I know riving knives are now standard on all tables saws in US. I took the riving knife off for a second attempt at the demo and there it went. I just proved the importance of a riving knife over a splitter.

The only complaint I have is the plastic used in the standard guard issued by sawstop. At certain angles you cannot see the blade through the guard since the plastic is curved, and it blurs the focus.

However we invested a couple of years ago in a Brett Guard system and that is the guard we will use on the sawstop. If kickback does occur, it minimizes the lifting and prevents injury to the upper body most importantly the face.

I could post the hotdog demo video, but most have seen that.

To all who posted, thank you. I did print off most of the replies and that did help with my admin's decision.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

It always amazes me how people would not get a saw Stop because they don't like the inventor. Particularly when students are involved isn't it more important to protect the students than holding a grudge. The other issues of longevity and $2000 price difference don't hold up ether . Can you imagine being an administrator explaining to parents there was a safer way to go but the school wanted to same $ 2000 buying a cheaper saw, after their child lost a finger. At the high school shop I teach my adult class the high school had just purchased a Saw Stop a week earlier when a student triggered the safety devise saving her finger. If they had reviewed their records and found they hadn't had an accident before they purchased that Saw stop and decided on the cheaper saw ,what would have happen to that students fingers or hand. As to having students taking the safety devise for granted I have not seen such an attitude since the Saw stop showed up at the school.
Tooldad I salute you and your school on your selection of the Saw Stop


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## Woodmaster1 (Apr 26, 2011)

I just bought a sawstop for school, that was a no brainer. I also bought a unisaw for myself, that was a hard decision.


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## Pimzedd (Jan 22, 2007)

Glad to see you made the choice to get the SawStop for the school. If a student ever trips it with a finger, you will be glad you made that choice. Good idea getting the sales rep to do the hot dog demo for the administrators. Administrators especially need to be aware of the hazards in your class to support you in managing your class (helping you keep the dangerous students out).

I have mixed emotions about your demonstrating a kickback. I always wanted to do that for my students but could never make it fool proof. I tried it several times after school with no students around. There is a video on youtube of a guy doing one on purpose and hitting a full sheet of plywood. If I were still teaching, I would download the video and play it for my students.

Keep teaching those kids and have a great, safe year.


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## Sawkerf (Dec 31, 2009)

This might be a good time to talk with your liability insurance carrier. As much as I dislike Sawstop's attempts to legislate purchase of their product, the actual cost of ownership might come down substantially for a Sawstop v.s another brand.

No direct experience, but I've heard that commercial shops have seen substantial insurance cost decreases when they went to Sawstop.


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## teejk (Jan 19, 2011)

a real dilemna here…I understand the safety thing but I can't help but wonder how many students will spring for an expensive saw until they can afford one.

it seems to me that it would be better to train them on a saw that they are most likely to use outside of the classroom.

it also seems to me that it would be a great opportunity to have some experienced students mentor the less experienced…the ability to guide others is an asset that will take them far beyond the woodshop (e.g. parenting, business, life in general). And watching others getting close to doing something stupid (and preventing it in time) will certainly be a reinforcement on the rules to the mentors.

wished I had had a refresher course a few months ago when for the first time in 30 years I got "bit" by a table saw…yeah, I was stupid, but the saw is still in the shop and will be until it dies.


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## mmtooler (Sep 13, 2011)

Hey Tooldad I sell Sawstop to every local school in our area. You made the right choice! I do have one thing that all my schools do is to post a sign telling the students that if they set off the saw with out it being there finger they are responsable to pay for the blade and the cartrage.


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## tooldad (Mar 24, 2008)

I have had a lengthy discussion with all of my students in regards to that. In fact I have a camera mounted above most of my tools. We have made it clear to the students if they deliberately trip the saw, they are responsible for $150 lab fine and I am supported by the administration on that. I even told them if the saw is tripped as a result of a student trying to move a scrap away from the blade, they are responsible for that too. In fact both students in my 12 years of teaching that have been injured on the table saw were the result of them trying to remove scrap.

The syllabus for the class is broad enough on damage to tools that if the instructor and administration deem necessary to hold the student responsible, we can do so.


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## tooldad (Mar 24, 2008)

Overall I am pleased with the saw. It is a well built piece of equipment. Smooth action sliding of the fence. 2 angled wrenches with rubber grips, well engineered dust collection. Then add the safety mechanism. Top of the line saw in my opinion.

I am too disappointed with the actions the inventor is taking. I call it "ambulance chasing". However that did not deter from me convincing admin to purchase one. In fact it probably helped with the precedence set.

As others have said, how can a school justify to an accident victim the savings of $1400 in our case when their child at that point have a life changing injury.

As to teejk's comment. I view the saw like a car with airbags. I don't drive any different because my car has airbags. It is just an added layer of protection if something were to go wrong.

I have a couple of students that have asked if they could bring in $200 and trip it with their finger. They would even sign a release form. They know my answer will be "no". In reality myself and the other instructor I teach with both agree that the students are all talk, and wouldn't have the guts to do so.

Overall it is a great saw with added safety features. It is getting the kids on the "bubble" to use it that probably wouldn't have used the standard saw. Once they get used to the proper procedures they will be well trained enough to use any table saw.

I know when my 7 year old is big enough to reach across the table safely, he will be taught on the sawstop at my school rather than my saw at home. It is just the extra safety measures that make me feel more comfortable.

On the other hand, I have been asked if they need to use a pushstick under 3" since it is sawstop. I always say yes they still do. I don't want blood on my new saw! No then I explain that the training I gave is for all table saws, and the sawstop safety mechanism is just there as an added precaution. People are creatures of habit and if they get used to getting close to the blade at school, they will do the same at home or somewhere else.

So in summary, it is a good saw and my safety rules have not changed what so ever. The students are responsible for the cost of the brake and blade if it trips while they are using it. I tell them that will be alot cheaper than the alternative if that wasn't a sawstop. And I do personally feel more comfortable when I hear the table saw turn on in my shop.


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## agallant (Jul 1, 2010)

I love my sawstop but the issue is they don't have the history. It is a new design and a new company and new technology. When I bought my SS I knew I was taking the risk of having a saw that could have huge issues because everything about it is so new. I decided to take the risk because I felt the saftey features were worth it. I may have not chosen it if it was a business decision for work. Powermatic is tried and true. Hell I was looking at them the other day wondering how much I really wanted the SS, but that is just me, I get board and there is always a new toy to have.


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## EandS (Aug 29, 2011)

I worked in a commercial cabinet shop for awhile (HUGE mistake but another story) and we had both a brand new sawstop and a brand new powermatic. Most all the guys would use the sawstop obviously because of safety but I felt it didnt make the cut. It would bog down when cutting thicker stock and even sometimes with hard Maple. I at first thought it was maybe a dull blade? Tryed 4 different blades all of which were brand new and same results. Also even after the shop tech (an ex machinest who knew how to expertly align the machines) aligned it multiple times I found the fence to be very inacurate most of the time which was very awkward when trying to make any type of joinery with it.
The Powermatic however is an animal. It powered through the thickest of stock and was also extremely delicate when doing finer work. When I soon replace my grizzly I will defenitly go with the gold standard.

322


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## mcase (Oct 31, 2009)

All safety issues aside. All political issues on hold. Powermatic simply is NOT the company it was. If your concern is longevity I suggest you consider that the track record of the old American-made Powermatic 66 with the American-made Baldor motor has no bearing. The new Powermatic is a Chinese based manufacturer and the new Powermatic 2000 is 100 percent Chinese made. If you search you will find that owners have reported a number of motor failure problems. By the way, I have owned the Sawstop industrial for four years and it has never bogged down for me. I have a neighbor who works at a production shop with seven SS industrials. I'll ask him if they have had any of the issues reported by EandS. Have you thought about the new Delta Unisaw? It looks to be a nice machine and is made in the USA.


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## mcase (Oct 31, 2009)

ToolDad -EandS,

I went over to talk to my neighbor about the SS bogging down issue. He said that compared to their old American-made monsters they do bog down. Working in a singleton shop this has never been an issue for me personally. I do run 8/4 maple over this machine and most often use a glue line rip blade which makes it even more work for the saw. Never been a problem for me. But evidently if its in a production shop with people shoving wood down its throat all day its more prone to this. I should add that the reason the company my neighbor works for switched to all SS was they had three amputations in a year one of them really ugly.


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## teejk (Jan 19, 2011)

hear ya tooldad on your comment to my comment but today ran into this:

http://www.mikeroweworks.com/2009/03/safety-first-or-just-in-the-top-3/

not arguing with you (especially in the school environment) but was an interesting read from I guy that I happen to like a lot…

"When we start to believe that someone else is more concerned about our own safety than we are, we become complacent, and then, we get careless".

the link came from a litigation site that I monitor frequently (and has posted several articles about the disappearance of school shop courses over legal concerns…sad but true).

http://overlawyered.com/

go Packers! (and Brewers and Badgers too).


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## gkb (Aug 4, 2015)

I am a retired machine shop teacher of 30 yrs. When school started we all counted our fingers and toes. At the end of the year we counted again. Thankfully the numbers always matched. Across the hall from my shop was the woodworking shop. When his counts matched he was a happy camper. I can recall at least 3 major accidents in his shop involving a table saw even with all the guards attached and push sticks used. A high school student is bullet proof. Safety is the number one thing that I taught along with the woodworking teacher. I have always believed woodworking tools are much more dangerous than machine tools. Unfortunately Sawstops weren't available until a few years ago. I have been woodworking most of my life not to the extent I have done in the last 16 years. In 1999 I bought my first real tablesaw. Powermatic 64a (contractor). It has been a great saw the last 16 years and still is. Works as good today as it did when new, bearings whine at times though. It has been used a lot as I have a 720 sq. ft. shop. I am now 66 and keep reading horror stories about table saw injuries. I have seen at least one up close to a 16yr old boy. I am about to pull the trigger on a Sawstop PCS not because I need a better saw but because I need a safer saw. No doubt the PCS is a better saw than my old Powermatic but safety is number 1. I know this thread is 4 yrs old but I needed to vent this. If anyone, especially if you are in a high school, needs a tablesaw consider the big advantage of Sawstop. If you need to convince an administrator, do what I did. Here is another story. All teachers in my school were suppose to wear ties. I refused. An administrator came to my shop one day to lay the law down to me about not wearing a tie. I took a rag over to a lathe, turned it on, handed him the rag and told him if he would hold on to one end and put the other end in the rotation chuck and hold on to it, I would wear a tie. He turned around and walked out. Within a week all shop teachers were excused from wearing ties. HOW CAN A SCHOOL NOT AFFORD TO HAVE A SAWSTOP.


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## Pimzedd (Jan 22, 2007)

AS you can see I posted on the forum earlier and still watch it.

I loved your story about the tie. I had a tie get caught when a bit broke in a foredum carving tool while teaching kids. during my second or third year of teaching. Scratched up my chest and tore up the tie. I removed the tie and never wore one again.

I had two principals call me in to get on me about wearing a tie in violation of district policy. I pointed out that district policy also said vocational teachers could be exempted at the principals discretion. I told them if they would put the request in writing I would wear a tie after putting a rebuttal letter in my permanent file down at the administration building. I told them the letter would state that I would wear the tie even though the principal could exempt me from wearing one and that the letter would allow me to sue the principal if I were injured and my wife could sue them if I were killed. They both said exactly the same thing, "Let me check into that policy and I will get back to you." Needless to say, I never heard back from either!

Enjoy your sawstop. As a CTE administrator I replaced every table saw in every classroom with sawstops. I rest easier knowing they are in place even after I have been retired for five years.


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

We were never allowed on the table saw in the wood shop. Only the teacher. Problem solved.


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

I would boil it down to a couple questions for your staff to consider:

1. If its just about the saw, get a new motor instead of fixing the one you have. Why can't you go to a 3HP motor?

2. If its about safety and saving money on insurance, get the SS.

Going back to #1, curious as to why 5HP? I've got a couple friends who run commercial cabinet shops with multiple TS's (PM, Unisaw, SS) and they are all 3HP.

Just asking that because a 3HP machine will get you into a SS for alot less $$.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

Since you are running a shop class for kids, the Sawstop is the only saw that makes sense. Personal use is one thing; a shop environment is something else. You would probably not save on insurance since there are other flesh eating tools in the shop.


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## tooldad (Mar 24, 2008)

update. My son that was 7 when I stated this post is now 11. He has been using the saw stop for about 2 years now on and off. I feel more comfortable with the fact that the safety feature is there. As I stated, I treat the saw the same way as a car with air bags. You still drive the same, but the airbags are an added bonus if something were to go wrong.

We have had the blade trip 3 times, (2 of them by me!). the first was a student who didnt check for staples and hit one. It happened to be the start of second semester when it happened and I had purchased a new blade but not got it installed yet, so I only charged him the $85 for the cartridge.

My first trip was because of pressure treated lumber, forgot to bypass the safety.

However my second was a momentary lapse in judgement. I was cutting over the summer and neglected to put the guard back down after setting blade height. I came across the top of the blade going to get the next board. I would never intentionally go over the blade, but without thinking I did.

It felt like a flick of your finger on skin, like when a parent flicks their kids for misbehaving in public. No blood, thankfully. That right there cost me $125, but it was well worth the savings of insurance and downtime.

The biggest pain is you cannot use narrow kerf blades, they hang up on the riving knife. The fence bar is also a little out of alignment after 3 years of using it full time.

No regrets o the 5hp, 3phase saw. We are working to get another one for our freshman side, but we are only requesting the 3hp single phase. We simply don't use that one enough to justify the extra power. Would a 3hp work on the advanced woods side, yes, but it is like a pickup truck pulling a big heavy trailer when you have a semi cab. both will do the job, but the semi will do it longer and more efficiently before burning up.


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