# rail and stile joints don't fit completely



## Wooddude9 (Apr 20, 2021)

I am relatively new to wood working and am having difficulty with my rail/stile joints not fitting completely. I don't know where the fault lays. Is it the router set Im using or is it something I am/niot doing correctly?I would appreciative any advice on this.


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## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

With a little bit of hammering it won't pull. Either we tap with a hammer or use the clamps to finish pulling together. It should take much force…


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

Nice looking joinery.

Isn't there a plastic piece you can use as a template for the set-up? Save that make a test piece that works well 
and save it as a template for next time.

Sorry I didn't answer your question but that's all I got. Our betters will guide you in the correct direction.


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## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

Normally a good quality brand will be matched. If your sharpener takes it apart to sharpen he should match and reassemble the same..


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## northwoodsman (Feb 22, 2008)

Have you tried applying pressure with clamps. They look like they should fit. Perhaps they are making contact on the bottom piece where it is rounded over, it's hard to tell from the picture. The joint look perfect to me.


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## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

The cuts are off. Hammering will split it.

The stile cut looks low (too close to back). The dado wall thickness to the bottom should be the same as the dado. When you flipped the cutter to cut the rail ends the curve didn't rout completely.

Make some more scrap.

Your stock thickness has to be exact as the R&S cutters reference from opposite faces and any thickness errors shows up 2X in the joint.

They ARE persnickity to get dialed in. Once you get them set *measure* the cutter setting with a caliper or a digital height gauge and note it for further reference.

You didn't mention if your cutters were one piece, two piece or reversible.

*FYI:*

one piece - rail & stile on one shaft, adjust height for rail or stile
two piece - separate r&s cutters, change bit for r or s 
reversible - one shaft with cutters that are reordered for r&s


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Is it the router set Im using or is it something I am/niot doing correctly?I would appreciative any advice on this.
> 
> - Wooddude9


I can't tell from the one photo whether you really have a problem or, as others have said, you just need to pull it together with clamps.

If you do need to tweak the cut, you can use mylar shims between the cutters to alter the spacing. Many bit sets include shims but, if yours didn't, you can buy a set for very little cost.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Your stock thickness has to be exact as the R&S cutters reference from opposite faces and any thickness errors shows up 2X in the joint.


The cut references off the same face if you're using a standard two-piece bit set. The thickness should be the same all around, but not for that reason.



> They ARE persnickity to get dialed in. Once you get them set *measure* the cutter setting with a caliper or a digital height gauge and note it for further reference.
> 
> - Madmark2


This is excellent advice, as long as you're using the same thickness pieces each time (which you likely are anyway).


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## BurlyBob (Mar 13, 2012)

Those look pretty decent to me. Set them vertical in a clamp and give them a good deal of pressure. They'll come together. If not just a little sanding on the tongue should do the trick. You really don't want loose or sloppy joints.


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## Phil32 (Aug 31, 2018)

Consider also the response of the wood to the cutting process. Was it humid that day?


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

It looks like the tongue might be too tight. Try taking a file to the back of the tongue. You can do it with a chisel or other tool but a file is easy to control.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

If the tongue is too tight, the correct fix is to use shims to set the bit up for proper cuts. Otherwise you're correcting every joint you cut with the bit set and needlessly wasting a huge amount of time.

Makes more sense to do it right from the start.


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## Wooddude9 (Apr 20, 2021)

Thank you for all your input. I've never used shims. Can the cuts I made be improved upon using shims? If so how? Or are we talking I have to start from scratch with new stock?


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## CWWoodworking (Nov 28, 2017)

Can you pull it together with clamps?

If so your joint is probably fine. No one here can tell you if it's good from the picture. It should fit snug. Should be able to put it together by hand.


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## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

> The cuts are off. Hammering will split it.
> 
> The stile cut looks low (too close to back). The dado wall thickness to the bottom should be the same as the dado. When you flipped the cutter to cut the rail ends the curve didn t rout completely.
> 
> ...


Your guessing…. good joints on doors can be wiggled close , but still require clamps to catch that last bit of resistance.. if they pull to easy, they are relying on glue…


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> Thank you for all your input. I've never used shims. Can the cuts I made be improved upon using shims? If so how? Or are we talking I have to start from scratch with new stock?
> 
> - Wooddude9


First question: did your bit set come with shims? If so then they probably have instructions. 
Second question: are you sure the end cuts are perfectly square(both directions)? Have seen that cause issues as well, but hard to tell from that picture.


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## Wooddude9 (Apr 20, 2021)

I have a two bit set and no the set did not come with shims. I believe the ends to be square


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## CWWoodworking (Nov 28, 2017)

Clamping?


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

Clamp em up!! Sand em down!! (Sung to the time of Rawhide)

Seriously don't mess with shims until you clamp it.

And always, always, run extra pieces when you mill just for stuff like this.


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## JIMMIEM (Feb 5, 2016)

To get it dialed in get a softer wood (poplar works good) that is exactly the same thickness as your hardwood. You can cut the poplar in one pass…..I'm assuming you cut the hardwood in several passes. Being able to cut and fit setup pieces in one pass will make the whole setup processes quicker and easier. These should fit with gentle hand pressure.
Just another option to get it done.


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## xedos (Apr 25, 2020)

Wooddude - Looks to me like your coping cut isn' quite deep enough. Could be your cutter's bearing is a tad oversized, but I doubt it. Check your fence settings first. You didn't say if the set is new or old and has been sharpened. If the latter, that's your issue. the sharpener screwed up.

Jack , et al - if you guys need clamps to force your joints together - your tooling and or technique is sub par.


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## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

> Wooddude - Looks to me like your coping cut isn quite deep enough. Could be your cutter s bearing is a tad oversized, but I doubt it. Check your fence settings first. You didn t say if the set is new or old and has been sharpened. If the latter, that s your issue. the sharpener screwed up.
> 
> Jack , et al - if you guys need clamps to force your joints together - your tooling and or technique is sub par.
> 
> - xedos


It's not called force. Made cabinets and entry doors since 1983…I've been on the clock almost 80,000 hors working in this field,...

Without that stile and rail in your hands , your just guessing…

I think many will agree it looks close enough to pull together.

But that's okay, I already know how to make doors, you guys can try and figure it out..


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## BigMig (Mar 31, 2011)

To me, it looks like your cut on the stiles isn't deep enough…you might need to move your router fence back - to make the tongue longer and the cutouts in the stile deeper.


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

I've done a lot of these. Clamp it and see if they fit better. The thing you really want to fit tight and in line with the other piece is the front that will show most. My bit sets are Freud. It looks like when clamped they'll be fine. Post a picture with one in a clamp.


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## Wooddude9 (Apr 20, 2021)

Jimmien,
In regards to multiple passes, if you mean moving the fence multiple times to make progressively deeper cuts, no I've never done that. Everything I've read with regards to stile/rail cutting always shows setting the fence once for each of the two bits then making the cut in one pass.


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## xedos (Apr 25, 2020)

Mr know it all - you're just guessing too.

Some of us have been doing this longer than even you have. And, doing it correctly with top notch tooling that doesn't require brute force (clamp or mallet) to assemble. Those are providing force in case you're confused.

Now, your guess may work. There is certainly more than one way to solve a woodworking problem. But that doesn't mean it's the correct way, or than somone else's way won't work either.

And jsut so everyone's clear - a modern cope and stick joint does *require* glue, no matter how well fitting you make it.


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## Wooddude9 (Apr 20, 2021)

these are the joints with hand snug clamping.

in regards to


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## JIMMIEM (Feb 5, 2016)

> Jimmien,
> In regards to multiple passes, if you mean moving the fence multiple times to make progressively deeper cuts, no I ve never done that. Everything I ve read with regards to stile/rail cutting always shows setting the fence once for each of the two bits then making the cut in one pass.
> 
> - Wooddude9


Depending on the wood species e.g. Red Oak, taking too big a cut in a single pass may result in splintering or chipping. That's why taking multiple small cuts may result in a better finished result.
As far as getting everything dialed in for a good fit using a softer wood e.g. poplar will allow you to do the entire cut in one pass. This way you get the bits dialed in more quickly. The poplar should be less expensive than the wood you are using for the finished product.
Once the setup is done you can take smaller cuts to get to a clean final cut. You can uses auxiliary fences to accomplish this i.e. main fence is set to final depth and auxiliary fences let the piece gradually move closer to the bit. 
Once you have things dialed in the poplar templates will be available for the next time you do this.
Don't forget the poplar must be the same thickness as the wood used in the finished product.


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## Wooddude9 (Apr 20, 2021)

it makes sense thank you


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## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

Grizzly r&s cutter instructions *specifically* say ONE pass for best fit.

The joints will drop in place after multiple passes because the joint will be sloppy as hell.

The pieces should go together with hand pressure and be snug enough to hold. If you have to force the fit, the fit ain't right.

Yes, clamps are necessary for final fit during glue up, but *not* to get it test fit.

You can see where the bind is in the curve. It looks like the settings were off.

What specific cutter set are you using?

Again, the dimensions on your cuts doesn't look right.

A two piece set doesn't have shims, only reversible sets do.


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## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

> Mr know it all - you re just guessing too.
> 
> Some of us have been doing this longer than even you have. And, doing it correctly with top notch tooling that doesn t require brute force (clamp or mallet) to assemble. Those are providing force in case you re confused.
> 
> ...


I'm just guessing too off a picture. Now your getting it…

Top notch tooling? Normally this just makes you more productive..


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## xedos (Apr 25, 2020)

dude - it would help us ( and you) if you'd let us know:

1. WHat brand cutter you're using.
2. Is it new, or old and sharpened ?
3. Are you making the joint in one pass or multiple ?
4. How are you arriving at the final setup ?
5. Are you using a coping sled ?


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## CWWoodworking (Nov 28, 2017)

Don't hand snug the clamp. Clamp it like you would if you were glueing it. Then give it another turn.

If your cut is short, it won't hurt anything.


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## Wooddude9 (Apr 20, 2021)

im using a new yonico 2 piece stile/rail bit set.
im making the cut in one pass
Im starting with the "coping cut"measuring 1/8" down from what will be the back of the rail-making sure bottom of top cutter(of rail cutter) is exactly at the 1/8" mark
im not using a coping sled I am using a miter guide with a piece of stock of same dimensions behind my rail piece
I then use my coping piece to set the proper height for stile bit to make the stile pieces


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

There seems to be a little gap but the gaps are in each part of the joint so it should all come in evenly with pressure. The one that's important is the one on the front that shows. You said you did some hand snug clamping. I assume that means just a little. Try clamping it tight as if you had some glue in there. It looks like that front seam will come together. I always clamp mine pretty hard just to make that happen.


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

Isn't the yonico a budget friendly router bit. 
My guess from a thousand miles is the budget friendly bit is falling short. 
It's hard to beat a good old fashioned mortise and tenon joint.
Good Luck


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## CWWoodworking (Nov 28, 2017)

> Isn't the yonico a budget friendly router bit.
> My guess from a thousand miles is the budget friendly bit is falling short.
> It's hard to beat a good old fashioned mortise and tenon joint.
> Good Luck
> ...


Calling yonico bits "budget friendly" is being extremely generous.


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

> Isn't the yonico a budget friendly router bit.
> My guess from a thousand miles is the budget friendly bit is falling short.
> It's hard to beat a good old fashioned mortise and tenon joint.
> Good Luck
> ...


I've got three sets of cabinet bits, different profiles, that are Freud but I purchases a few Yonico's, originally to do a few one off things that I didn't want to spend a lot on a bit for. I was very surprised at their fit and finish. Beefy carbide that was sharp and smooth and a paint job that was good. On crappy bits it's usually pitted. Now, I purchase them all the time. Very happy with them at half the cost. This is one that the Chinese got right.


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## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

Try setting to 1/4" instead of 1/8". That's what I was referring to in my first post.

You got a p/n on those bits?


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## CWWoodworking (Nov 28, 2017)

> Isn't the yonico a budget friendly router bit.
> My guess from a thousand miles is the budget friendly bit is falling short.
> It's hard to beat a good old fashioned mortise and tenon joint.
> Good Luck
> ...


They are 0-3 with me. One larger profile bit, I can count on my fingers how many feet it lasted. A rabbeting set, 2 out of 5 bearings were locked up from the start. The others cut was just terrible.

But, I only wasted 45$ on the whole thing. Yonkys are a crapshoot. Glad some get lucky. I won't try again.


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## splintergroup (Jan 20, 2015)

I'm about 60-40, slight edge toward the "good" side with 8 bits purchased. Biggest problems were out of balance (esp. the big sets) and dulling in a few feet.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

I've had good luck with Yonico sets, but mine usually come with shims. Here is a set of "Modern Shaker" i did a whole kitchen with and they worked great out of the box. But you can see the little baggy of shims they came with to adjust if needed:


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## CaptainKlutz (Apr 23, 2014)

What I observe in the pictures is non-uniform profile cut. 
Several of the poorly fitting joints have a different interference point. Some of the rails are cut with profile closer to bottom, which creates an interference on the curved section of profile. Some do not.

If the stock is all exact same thickness (as it should be); then issue is could be how you feed the boards across the router table. Unless you have power feeder like professional use; you need to use hold downs on router table. 
For stile boards need to use feather boards pushing down on the board on each side of bit, and another feather board pushing the board against fence just in front of the bit. This will keep your profile in same location down the entire length. 
When setting up stile bit on your coping sled; check the fit using several locations along several rails, to ensure stile profile is at right height. If your rails have inconsistent profile height, it is easy to set up stile profile incorrectly, and have fit issues like those shown.

If slight adjustments in bit height to not solve the problem, then time to get out calipers and measure the dimensions. Pictures show that you MIGHT need a small shim between bearing and curved cutter on stile profile.

Not an ex-spert, just sharing observations and lesson from school of hard knocks.

Best Luck.


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## Wooddude9 (Apr 20, 2021)

What causes this non uniform cut where the left side of the piece appears slightly thicker than the right. The fence appears to be squared correctly. Is it possible the bit went in slightly crooked?


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## CWWoodworking (Nov 28, 2017)

Bad set up.

Are you using a sled to make that cut?


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

Kind of looks like maybe there was twist in that board? Have seen it be from twist or cupping in a board, but have also seen it be from router plate and/or insert out of coplanar with table.


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## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

The bit isn't crooked, the stock is.

Looks like the workpiece end wasn't flat/tight to the top when the piece was routed.

Is that piece flat or does it rock on a flat surface?

The entire cut (r&s) is too low. The top reveal should only be about 1/16" and the bottom is too narrow.

This is why ppl suggested hold downs, power feed and feather boards.

Its not the tool, its technique.


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## xedos (Apr 25, 2020)

You stock is not of uniform thickness - and- the faces are not parallel.

Check your jointer and planer after you check your mirror.


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

+1 on maybe the stock not uniform, but pics can distort.

+1 on the coping sled. Rockler makes a good one.

Bits can tend to lift stock, if you don't keep it pressed down.


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## CaptainKlutz (Apr 23, 2014)

> What causes this non uniform cut where the left side of the piece appears slightly thicker than the right. - Wooddude9


+1 setup
Could be:
- Board is not uniform thickness across entire width.
- Board has warp/twist.
- Coping sled is not flat, not held flat to table top, or board is not flat while clamped in sled.
- Router plate is not level to router table, causing coping sled to tilt as it passes over plate.

+1 bits can lift stock.
It is very hard to use feather boards for rail profile machining. Use of a coping sled is mandatory. Also need to minimize the length of board extending out from sled. Recently tried out a new extended tenon R&S bit set from Freud, and had rail lifting issues with 2" long tenon; but only when feed rate was too fast.

Best Luck.


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## Mike_D_S (May 3, 2012)

I'll just mention that a board being non-uniform thickness will give a bad joint as the joint won't end up flat, but if properly held down when routed, the profile will still turn out ok. So I'd suggest you have more of a warp issue as that tongue looks really straight for the board ot moving up and down.


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## xedos (Apr 25, 2020)

What happened to all you guys that said " just clamp it, it'll be fine " ?

specially the ones with all that experience needing clamps.


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## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

> What happened to all you guys that said " just clamp it, it ll be fine " ?
> 
> specially the ones with all that experience needing clamps.
> 
> - xedos


What are you talking about?

I worked on my boat all day,


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## xedos (Apr 25, 2020)

You know what I'm talking about. ;-)


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## Wooddude9 (Apr 20, 2021)

Is a coping sled essential when cutting the tenons? I've been using a miter guide with sacrificial stock behind the rail piece.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> You know what I m talking about. ;-)
> 
> - xedos


I don't. Tell me.


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## CWWoodworking (Nov 28, 2017)

> Is a coping sled essential when cutting the tenons? I ve been using a miter guide with sacrificial stock behind the rail piece.
> 
> - Wooddude9


Essential? No. But they make set up easier and more accurate. Also safer IMO.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> Is a coping sled essential when cutting the tenons? I ve been using a miter guide with sacrificial stock behind the rail piece.
> 
> - Wooddude9
> 
> ...


Agree on safer. I used my miter gauge and backing block for years and it worked great. But it was also the worst machine accident I ever had when the tip of my middle finger ran into the router bit. A saw just cuts, but a router grabs flesh and chews it like a pissed off crocodile.


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## Woodmaster1 (Apr 26, 2011)

I use a matched set from Sommerfeld Tools and they are matched so I just exchanged the bits and no height adjustment is needed.


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## CaptainKlutz (Apr 23, 2014)

> Is a coping sled essential when cutting the tenons? - Wooddude9
> 
> 
> > Essential? No. .... safer IMO. - CWWoodworking
> ...


+1 Router bits are WORSE than a Pissed off crocodile 







BTDTGTTS 
I was lucky only small chunk flesh/muscle missing. Was using a 1/4" beading bit, with very small projection.

Nice part about coping sled is clamp(s) free up your hands and keep them away out harms way.

Highly suggest to use one with top mounted shield like this Infinity, or this DIY from LJ RimFire7891.

Cheers


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## Woodmaster1 (Apr 26, 2011)

I use a push block when cutting tenons. I screw a block of wood to the push block you get with jointer. It works great and no tear outs.


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## CWWoodworking (Nov 28, 2017)

You should try using your routers on wood. 

I had a Bosch 1617 that would turn on by itself. One time I picked it up by the bit, forgot it was plugged in. Decided to turn on. Escaped with a deep cut in one finger. Could have been much, much worse. That's when the 1617 got put on the tool scrap pile.


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## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

> You know what I m talking about. ;-)
> 
> - xedos


No I don't.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> You know what I m talking about. ;-)
> 
> - xedos
> 
> ...


Truth me known he doesn't either.


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

I had a similar issue on my first version of my shop built router table.

I had an el-cheapo router base plate made of plastic that would flex as I ran parts over it with pressure.
The result was uneven cuts like that.

I spent some coin on the aluminum router plate and that problem disappeared completely.


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## hcbph_1 (Apr 11, 2020)

I've been reading this thread, and have a couple of thoughts on the issues. First off, I use a shaper rather than a router so take that as a basic difference, but the rest generally applies. On making parts for a Stile and Rail setup, the first thing I do is face joint all the pieces to be flat, then cut one edge square. Plane all the pieces and confirm via measurements they are square. I cut them on the shaper face down using Board Buddies to hold the pieces up against the fence, and do the stiles in a couple of passes to prevent tear out. I also make a dummy piece cut with the rail profile I use as a backer when cutting the rails. When cutting the rails, I use a miter gauge and a backer, either a square piece or that profile. Once everything is cut, the long profile is cut to width.
Having said all this, I have used cutters where each profile is a single cutter. Most of them are junk IMO. I prefer the 6 piece cutters so shims can be added if needed. Happens the sets I have right now have very good profiles cut and don't require shims, but I could add if the day ever occurs where I need to.
In the OP's original picture, it looks like the cutters may have been sharpened or misground in the first place as I don't think the male and female profiles don't appear to match.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

hcbph_1

Good advice. But, many hobbyists don't have shapers. I have seen many cabinet doors that were made with router tables that were very acceptable.

Disclaimer: I have 3 shapers and use them. If I didn't have any, and I need to make a few doors I'd head to the router table.

I'm very much into stock pep as you described.


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