# Hand tool only forum?



## JRedgate (Apr 11, 2014)

Hello,

I am wondering if anyone knows of a forum that is 100% hand tool only without exception or, if not, if anyone would be interested in one.

I am interested in this for a few reasons. One reason is that I have a disability that prevents me from using any type of power tool. Another reason is that I have a very passionate interest in the ways that things were done in the past and I would like to be a part of a community (presently existing or in need of being created) of people that share similar passions.

I am aware that there are many woodworkers who enjoy working with hand tools, but will rely on some modern electric/gas/battery powered tools in order to speed certain aspects of their projects along; either for productivity reasons or because they have become bored or disinterested in some of the hand tool techniques. My inquiry is not calling their reasons for this into question; I am simply wishing to discover if there are others who are interested in 100% hand tool use.

My inquiry also includes those who are only interested in historical/non-synthetic finishes, solvents and adhesives.

Thank you for allowing me to be a part of this community and I look forward to your comments and feedback


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## lateralus819 (Mar 24, 2013)

There is sub forum and I think lumberjocks that focuses on hand tool use. A lot of people within lumberjocks feel strongly towards hand tools.


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## DocBailey (Dec 9, 2011)

I would love to see such a thing, but …

I have long since given up on the notion that such a thing can exist. Perhaps I am too cynical.
I got a lot of blowback when I tried to point out (hand tool area of a competing forum) that all these self-styled Neanders and galoots were anything but.

It was actually laughable to see threads in which they were extolling their hand tool skills (complete w/pictures) only to find that a) they had used a power planer before flattening with a hand plane, had used a table saw (but only to break down stock), had used a bandsaw to resaw, and a drill press to ensure that the holes were perpendicular!

Call me hard-core, but I find it absurd that these guys who want to build a Roubo or Nicholson bench upon which to do hand tool working, don't even build their bench with hand tools.


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## realcowtown_eric (Feb 4, 2013)

There has been a handtools only forum on the interweb x pushin 20 years now.

It is the oldtools list serve.

There are archives available too.

it evolved out of rec.woodworking from folks being tired of "which table saw to buy" questions.

You gotta post a bio to enter, but lurking is possible…Strictly text, no images, but links allowed.

Doc, you ain't cynical, you just never entered the right search terms.

Eric in Cowtown


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## JRedgate (Apr 11, 2014)

I am familiar with forums and areas of forums that cater to hand tool use. The hand tool section here is very nice and I have enjoyed other places that focus on them as well. What I have not found yet are forums that are 100% exclusive to hand tool usage and historical finishes &c.

Eric, is the listserv place that you mentioned what I am describing, or is it just mostly hand tool usage?

Doc, if I get enough response, I will make sure that a forum like that happens. Maybe, after I get established here, I might be allowed to create a section that is 100% purist and be allowed to moderate it. If not, I would be willing to create a new forum elsewhere.

I would have no desire to detract from Lumberjocks whatsoever. If I created one elsewhere, I would probably make it a forum that would include numerous subjects (sewing, weaving, pottery, blacksmithing &c.) that would all be 100% traditional. "Modern" techniques and discussion of such would not be allowed, as there are numerous other forums for such things; such as LJ does so wonderfully with woodworking.

As I said in my original posting, my intention is not to cast aspersions on the characters of those who wish to incorporate the use of machinery, rather, I am simply seeking those who are seeking a community of purists.


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

http://logancabinetshoppe.com/blog/

"Welcome to the Logan Cabinet Shoppe, located in Swedesboro, Logan Township, New Jersey! I have been designing and building hand crafted, solid wood furniture for over 20 years. My furniture is reminiscent of common 18th and 19th century American antiques, and is built to the highest standards using only tools and methods similar to those used by our colonial ancestors."

Bob Rozaieski's blog comes to mind. HTH

Enjoy the journey Joseph, it's going to be a great one.


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## DocBailey (Dec 9, 2011)

Eric - I am, of course, well aware of the site you mention, but I talked to a few friends this morning and apparently am not alone in thinking that the site has been long abandoned
Much more importantly, however, it does not begin to approach what the OP has envisioned.

waho6o9 - no one's saying that blogs of this nature don't exist (Stephen Shepherd's "Full Chisel Blog" and Adam Cherubini's "Arts & Mysteries" are two of of the pures) - the post is about forums


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## JRedgate (Apr 11, 2014)

Although my original entry was an inquiry about purist forums and those who might be interested, I also welcome references to purist builders and suppliers. I am willing to contact them to see if they would be interested in joining such a forum.

As Doc said earlier: 
"I would love to see such a thing, but … I have long since given up on the notion that such a thing can exist."

I too have been of this opinion, but perhaps, if purists knew that such a section or complete forum existed, such a place may be embraced and frequented. In my experience, if one has interest in such purist endeavors, one must do a great deal of searching in order to find, ofttimes, obscure and unfrequented references.

I have reason to hope for a purist discussion spot. After making the original post, it took only an hour to see a response from someone who shares this interest. I do not know how long I would need to be a member of Lumberjocks before I could request moderating a new area, but I would welcome the opportunity.


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## ClintSearl (Dec 8, 2011)

*Go to woodcentral.com*


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Sawmill creek's Neanderthal Haven


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## DocBailey (Dec 9, 2011)

Clint, bandit

Neither of those qualify - I frequent both, but they are hardly purist sites.
You don't have to look long to find heated battles wherein those with Drill presses, bandsaws, etc fiercely defend hybrid ww'g. It gets really old, really fast.

Woodcentral had the most promise, since Stephen Shepherd is, (I think) a moderator there.
At any rate, he runs the Tuesday night chats.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

Wouldn't it be erroneous to create an electronic, digital website for this? I mean, a truly unplugged community should only communicate via Postal mailings, smoke signals, or carrier pigeons. Using the latest web technology to spread the word in and of itself, would be an anomaly.


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## richardwootton (Jan 17, 2013)

I would certainly be interested in a site like what you mention. I use hand tools exclusively, even though when I started out learning this craft I bought a lot of power tools , but they were quickly forsaken and pushed to the back of the shop where they still sit covered with tarps.


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## DocBailey (Dec 9, 2011)

poopiekat

I think you're on the right track …

I envision a town crier reading the various postings from parchment scrolls
Meetings would obviously occur infrequently, but be held in the town square


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

But what should we wear.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

*DocBailey*: Those who ride their horse-drawn buckboard to the Town Square would be the object of scorn of those who walked, and those who walked barefoot would show contempt for those who were shod.


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## walden (Nov 11, 2012)

Joseph - I would be interested in such a forum. I only use hand tools including a hand crank post drill. A forum like that would be pretty interesting.


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## ShaneA (Apr 15, 2011)

Got a radical idea for you guys….you can talk about them within this very forum/thread. So simple, but kinda obvious too. Doesn't solve the problem of what you will wear, but I am sure there should be some sort of dress code.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)




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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Nah, go Old School CAVEMAN attire, or lack thereof!

There are some things I will draw a line at. LONG rips with a handsaw, just ain't got the "gas" for that. Drive a couple screws is fine by hand, but 20-30? NOPE.

My hand tool work is more based on the amount of room I have to work in, unless you count working outside on the sunlit patio. The Dungeon Shop? Some people have more room in their bathrooms….


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## DocBailey (Dec 9, 2011)

Don W

I'm in!


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

Although I love my hand tools, I love my power tools as well. I do understand the desire to have a forum dedicated to the activity that you love though. Almost like AA. I feel the same about tool collecting.

Until you find one, creating a forum topic just for hand tool only enthusiast (like Shane suggested) could be a substitute.

You could also request a separate forum category in the site feedback section.


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## JRedgate (Apr 11, 2014)

"Got a radical idea for you guys….you can talk about them within this very forum/thread."

The reason this is not an option that is desirable is because ridicule and accusations of hypocrisy quickly flood such discussions when I have attempted to have them in the past. I fail to see how using electronic communication has anything to do with a purist adherence to woodworking and I do not consider myself to be in error in doing so. If we were having a conversation about complete abandonment of modern technology in our daily lives, then Mr. Poopiekat may have a point. However, I am sure that those who wish to argue points ad infinitum would continuously ask what is considered "modern technology" and ask if we are all supposed to be using sticks and sharp rocks.

As I continue to state, I have no desire to belittle or mock those woodworkers who wish to use externally powered machinery. I wish to find others that share my interest in traditional purism that also wish to engage in a forum without the inclusion of modernity.

I have decided to create such a forum. I am in the process of setting up categories, welcome messages, rules &c. 
As I do not with to detract from the Lumberjocks forum in any way, I have also decided to refrain from including a link to it here, unless a moderator gives me permission do do so. If you are interested in the forum I am creating, send me a private message.


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## ShaneA (Apr 15, 2011)

I understand now. I see your point about nay sayer intrusion. Probably like trying to have a civil SawStop conversation. However, there are a lot of people here who could contribute in a mature manner.


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## upchuck (Nov 3, 2013)

Joseph Redgate-

Maybe this is the sort of thing you are looking for.

http://swingleydev.com/archive/charter.html


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## realcowtown_eric (Feb 4, 2013)

Send OldTools mailing list submissions to
[email protected]

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
[email protected]

20 plus years of oldtool queries/quandries/ and archived too!

Evolved out of rec.woodworking way back when by folks who got tired of reading posts over which TS to buy..

Willie said he thought it was dead. It ain't

Strictly HANDTOOLS,Bio requested.

Go sit on the porch and listen for a bit….I subscribe in the digest mode

Eric


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## jamesicus (Jan 11, 2011)

I could have one up and running strictly for hand tools in an hour something like this ….......

http://members.boardhost.com/jamesicus/

.......... the question is - would it get used enough?


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

Wouldn't a completely Hand tool woodworker be with out electricity.And have no computer or internet.Seems like he would be hard to find unless he lives at the end of the road.


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## realcowtown_eric (Feb 4, 2013)

james… feel free to re-invent the wheel….

Eric


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## JRedgate (Apr 11, 2014)

Does anyone know the Lumberjocks policy on posting links to external forums? As I have stated before, I do not wish to detract from this forum, nor do I wish to post a link against the policy of the board.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

I can see it now…. Tedious topics like *"Which Handsaw Should I Buy?"* or * "Langley vs Gooddell-Pratt vs. Stanley.. The Mitre-Box Shoot-Out"*

Personally, I rather watch a good Tom Fidgen woodworking video, which does more to rewire my brain into good handtool practices than incessant chat on the subject.


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## HarveyDunn (Aug 29, 2013)

> It was actually laughable to see threads in which they were extolling their hand tool skills (complete w/pictures) only to find that a) they had used a power planer before flattening with a hand plane, had used a table saw (but only to break down stock), had used a bandsaw to resaw, and a drill press to ensure that the holes were perpendicular!


Before you heap scorn on others, can you confirm you work by candlelight in an space heated only by a fireplace, having brought your lumber there by horsecart?


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

I guess your own site would be required. To what extent you will work by hand can be up to you. Would a water powered saw mill be considered "by hand". Table saws have been around for a long time. Even before electric motors. The same can be said for most machinery.

Do all studs and beams need to be pit sawn or hand hewn?

Even if you don't go as far as how you heat, or what light you see by, the extent by what "by hand" could be a controversial statement even before there was really nothing else.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

Well-said, *Don*!
I have days when I'd be happy to settle for CNC versus non-CNC woodworking.
I fear that the lost art of hand-tooled woodworking will someday be the subject of a National Geographic study, an explorer finds an obscure group of insular individuals in the forest who actually apply tools to raw lumber, to the awe of NG readers.

Unlike portrait and landscape painters, whose craft has not significantly evolved in 600 years, woodworking has shifted from simple hand tools to elaborate monstrosity machines, if one is so inclined.

Think of how the arts community would react if some mechanical means was implemented to apply paint to canvas! The prospect of a wood project produced without ever having been in contact with human hands is.. well.. frightening. Nahhh, it simply isn't woodworking.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

*Joseph Redgate: "...I have a disability that prevents me from using any type of power tool…."*

I for one, am completely confused by your above assertion. I can see isolated single incidents/arguments/examples on either side of the isle, but such a absolute declaratory statement toward ALL power tools ONLY, is beyond belief IMO. Such a "disability" would also be completely debilitating toward the use of many, if not all, hand tools as well. I welcome an explanation.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

Using lumber that has been harvested by modern means and turned into dimensional lumber would be considered a shortcut when talking about using hand tools exclusively. We cannot rely on hand tools 100% in a practical world.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

With the circular saw blade/machine being independently invented in 1770 and in 1810 (more than 200-years ago), just where does the "purity" aspect of "hand tools" come into play? After all, "power" tools have been used for centuries when you consider the use of watermills and the like.

Should we insist that "metal" tools be excluded as well, using only "stone" tools?... Hmm…


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## DocBailey (Dec 9, 2011)

HarveyDunn

I'm guessing you use the word "bully" alot. Am I right.
Seriously, stop being so dramatic-that's your idea of "heaping scorn" ?


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## DocBailey (Dec 9, 2011)

To everyone here trying to nitpick and dissect this topic:

The original poster could not have been any clearer than he was in stating that:

• He is not casting dispersions on anyone here who chooses to use power tools in their woodworking
• He wondered if there were others who were interested in a forum such as he described

Re-read this paragraph from the original post and see if you don't agree:
"I am aware that there are many woodworkers who enjoy working with hand tools, but will rely on some modern electric/gas/battery powered tools in order to speed certain aspects of their projects along; either for productivity reasons or because they have become bored or disinterested in some of the hand tool techniques. My inquiry is not calling their reasons for this into question; I am simply wishing to discover if there are others who are interested in 100% hand tool use."

too many here are bent out of shape because they perceive that they are being called out as non-purists.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Maybe Roy Underhill type of wood wrok?


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## DocBailey (Dec 9, 2011)

bandit

That may be the most succinct summary yet of what (in my perception) the OP is proposing.


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## JRedgate (Apr 11, 2014)

I wish to thank you all for your input on this. You were all most helpful; even the critics. I have learned that there are some who desire such a forum, or would, at least, find some sort of value in it. I have also learned that the reasons for my displeasure in more common forums are still very much alive and have decided to make the forum that I have created a more exclusive one that will require either an invitation or an informed request in order to be approved for membership.

I have no desire to engage in needlessly divisive intercourse with those who's comments may be perceived as intentionally confrontational merely for the sake of creating an argument. I have been guilty of engaging in such activity in the past and am extremely repentant of my behavior. I do feel, however, that I should respond to the issue of my disability, as it has been one of the driving forces in my decision to omit the use of non human-powered tools and machines.

I have two conditions: Tinnitus (which is quite common) and Hyperacusis (which is fairly uncommon). The Tinnitus is loud and very obnoxious, but it does not cause me pain. It is made up of three and sometimes four different tones/rings that also hiss, buzz and screech and all of the tones create a horrible dissonance. Other than being terribly annoying, the only inconvenience it has caused is to make listening to any genre of music a horrible experience. I was a professional musician for twenty years and a luthier with my own instrument company for five years. Due to the dissonance in my head that is caused by the Tinnitus, I had to give up both vocations and, as I said, I can no longer enjoy even listening to music.

The Hyperacusis causes a great deal more of an inconvenience in my life. It is a condition that causes me to experience pain (sometimes excruciating) from sounds that, normally, would not cause one discomfort. There are many different levels of Hyperacusis; some are mild and some are so severe that some people cannot even leave their soundproofed bedrooms. Mine is somewhere in the middle. The pain that I experience is caused by varying decibel levels (especially high ones) and also varying frequencies (some high, some low) that fluctuate. It has made it necessary for me to wear hearing protection 24/7 and the act of doing so makes the sounds of my Tinnitus even louder.

If I am not wearing hearing protection, just the sound of paper crumbling, a pen dropping on a desk or a spoon hitting the side of a bowl causes me great pain. I have specially designed custom moulded, silicon ear plugs (34NRR) and custom noise canceling earmuffs (36NRR) that I wear at the same time. I have also modified a full face motorcycle helmet with soundproofing foam inside and five or six inches of soundproofing foam on the outside covered in a thick layer of Great Stuff insulating foam. The helmet is only used in the workshop.

I can no longer use lawnmowers, snowblowers, table saws, chop saws, routers, drills, circular saws, garbage disposals, vacuum cleansers, leaf blowers, motorcycles, chainsaws, weed trimmers, Dremmels, belt sanders, orbital sanders, palm sanders, bench sanders, band saws, jack hammers, tile saws, compressors &c..

I can no longer go to movie theaters, concerts, crowded shopping malls, construction sites, busy restaurants, coffee shops, busy home centers, parties, most family events, hold infants, be around dogs that bark, engage in heated arguments &c.. Even non crowded public places are a challenge and I often need to request for them to turn down their televisions or overhead music temporarily (which is extremely embarrassing and awkward). During the week or so when fireworks are being set off in the neighborhood, I spend all of my time in the basement and I sleep in my workshop. These lists are not exhaustive.

When I am in my workshop and am using human powered hand tools or human powered machines (i.e. treadle lathes), there are some things that I can do while only wearing my ear plugs. Some things require me to wear both my ear plugs and earmuffs and some things require me to wear ear plugs and the ridiculous looking helmet.

When applying finishes, using chisels without a mallet or performing other quiet tasks, I can just wear my ear plugs. When using cabinet scrapers, abrasives and things at that level, I wear ear plugs and ear muffs. When sawing, dimensioning stock, using a chisel mallet or a hammer or things like that, I wear earplugs and the helmet. It is only when I am performing tasks that require the helmet that I experience pain, but I can go as slowly as I choose to in order to minimize the amount of pain that I experience.

This is a brief explanation of my conditions. In my original post, I chose to omit this information because I did not find the details to be relevant to my request. I was unaware that omitting this information would call my integrity into question or cause me to seen in a light that is less than genuine.

Again, I wish to thank all of you for your input and would especially like to thank DocBailey for his understanding and for helping to re-clarify my intent.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

Beat of luck with your ventures. The best thing about Lumberjocks is the lack of a moderator. Yes, once in a while someone jumps into my collector blogs and forums to tell me how bad collecting tools suck. But should it get unbearable, (although it hasn't yet) there is always the block function.

I tend to avoid the sites that moderate me. But we all think differently. That's the wonder of a democracy.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Boy I can relate to the tinnitus, thanks to the US Navy! I get a financial disability for that but would rather NOT have all that damn ringing than any amount of $$$. The hearing aids the VA provides only help with human conversation, but do nothing for the tinnitus nor anything related to being able to many/most bird life (a previous occupation).

Just a suggestion here, but personally I am very interested in the following:


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## TedW (May 6, 2012)

I have an issue with my left ear which causes me pain when I'm exposed to certain noises, most commonly sirens and screaming. I'm lucky in that it's not really bad and it's not triggered by power tools. Like Mike, mine is from my Navy days. I was on a carrier (USS Forestall) and while walking through the hangar deck near the grappling cable pulleys, a plane landed. I was about 20 feet away from the pulley. Apparently a bolt or something got lodged in the pulley and it emitted a really loud screetching noise that hurt my left ear.

I never thought much of it until months later I began to notice certain sounds cause a mild but sharp pain in my left ear. As I get older it seems to becoming more sensitive, but still not really bad… have to cover my ear when I hear a siren, have to wear ear protection at concerts, but on occasion something will catch me off guard before I can cover my ear and then it feels like an ice pick. But like I said, power tools don't have that particular sound… not even especially loud ones.

Joseph and Mike, I don't know if my ear issue is the same as what you guys are dealing with. If so, it's certainly not nearly as severe. I never knew there is a name for it.

UPDATE: I guess I should have watched the video before posting. I do hear constant high frequency sounds…. ringing, whistling, vibrating all at the same time, but it has never bothered me. It's not real loud and I guess I've just grown accustomed to it. I always figured it's just a normal thing, everybody hears it, like there is no such thing as absolute quiet. I don't believe the pain from sirens and such are related because that is very directly the eardrum.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Ted,
That one-off incident you had in the Navy probably won't be acknowledged by the VA unless it was documented at that time. As for me it was an occupational hazard as I was an electrician in the engine room of a large ship, standing watch on three high speed steam driven generators. The high pitched squeal of those turbines eventually never quit ringing in my ears. I had even used earplugs, headphones, and kept my head inside of the 3-sided soundproof telephone/switchboard booth. But I guess the quality of that equipment was not too good back in the early 1970s. Never thought much about it until a few years back when I was denied a government contract job because of a failed hearing test. I eventually got VA compensated, though it was 40-years after the fact… Better late than never.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

Mr Redgate, Now that you have described the situation fully in your last post, we are now in a better position to understand your plight and offer an intelligent answer.


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## Pendragon1998 (Jan 31, 2014)

HorizontalMike, were you a birder? I have worked on several bird studies in my various grad school experiences. My mother has some sort of degenerative hearing loss and I dread the possibility that I may inherit it, as birding is 80+% auditory. I have some very mild tinnitis that I notice more often these days. It is another reason for me to avoid loud equipment noise


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

"WHAT??"

Mortar round blew out the right ear, then a mastiod got in the back of it. Already certifie deaf in that ear. No ringing nowadays, I think the ringer got wore out.

Wear earplugs all the time at the "Day Job". Place is still LOUD. Then the alarm beepers are even louder. They REQUIRE a hearing test every year, on your hire date.

About 75% hand tools in the shop. There are some things that I won't do by hand. Like rip a board to width, that is the realm of the circular saws. Some crosscuts, too. Scroll work is not by coping saw, but by sabresaw. That's about it for corded stuff. Do have a LOUD routah, that I am slowly getting planes to replace….


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## JRedgate (Apr 11, 2014)

Mr. Ron, I is unclear to me why understanding the nature of my disability gives more merit to my desire for hand tool exclusivity, but if it provides clarity for you, that I suppose it is a help of sorts.

It would appear that the fruits of my inquiry are at an end in this particular thread. Unfortunately, when I explain the nature of my disability in various forums, whichever thread I have explained it in always seems to turn its focus onto the disability and abandons the original topic.

Again, thank you for all of your input. I believe my question has been answered and a remedy has been found.


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## JRedgate (Apr 11, 2014)

I attempt to avoid as many typing errors as possible, so when I saw that I had typed, "I is unclear," I was very embarrassed indeed. And then I laughed loudly. It was meant to read, "It is unclear."


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## ClintSearl (Dec 8, 2011)

Aside from the impossibility of defining the boundaries of purism, there's the further impossibility of enforcing adherence to said definition. But I sincerely wish you well in your endeavor.


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## WoodAndShop (Apr 8, 2014)

Hi Joseph,

I've created (and am continuing to refine) a website for hand tool woodworkers…no power tools! It's called Wood and Shop. Here's the link. People can comment and correspond, and I've got feeds of all the good hand tool woodworking blogs. I'm working on adding a proper forum. Any suggestions are welcome!


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## JRedgate (Apr 11, 2014)

Thank you, for your encouragement, Mr. Farnsworth.


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## WoodAndShop (Apr 8, 2014)

You're welcome Joseph! Us hand tool guys have got to stick together!


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