# Artist?



## kolwdwrkr (Jul 27, 2008)

I was searching the internet looking for a little inspiration for a project I'm wanting to start. I'm going to make a turning and was just seeing some other artists work to get my design juices flowing. I have to say, there's a lot of turnings that are amazing, and I think I was overwhelmed. Needless to say my brain didn't spit out anything as it normally would. 
The problem with the loss of inspiration started when I started looking at gallery pieces. I found some very elaborate carved turnings and some very simple hollow forms. Granted I'm not super skilled so even the simple ones are a challenge to me. My problem started when I found pricing. A simple spalted maple vessel was being sold for $6,000. I recognize the makers name, and I'm sure the price comes with recognition. His work isn't art to me, but rather a skilled turning. On the other side of the spectrum I saw a piece for $35,000, and a lot of pieces running between 15-20k. These are for turnings that are the size of a vase and some are just out of walnut. The actual work is stunning though, some elaborately carved. But some still just seemed like skilled work. 
The prices changed my mindset from wanting to turn to wanting to be an artist. I personally think that I'm just a woodworker, and I get lucky with some of my work when it comes out good. So lets get to the questions.
What makes one artists piece so much more then anothers with the same skill? I mean, if I turn a vessel out of spalted maple and it turns out flawless, I can guarentee you that nobody would pay $5,000. So why would they for someone elses? What makes that piece any better?
If by chance I decided that I could be an artist, what would be the best way to gain recognition and be able to sell at those prices?
How do you convince a gallery to take your pieces if you are a new artist? 
What even makes you an artist, and not just a talented worker? In my mind I think that anyone can turn a nice vessel or make a great piece with time and dedication. Does that make them an artist when they have gained the necessary experience? Or just a skilled craftsman? 
I don't see how a simple form, one that is not that unique, can be priced so high, and yet someone can make a piece that takes different types of skill, is very unique, etc, but that seems to be worthless. I would think that if I chose an artist, I saw his work, and I was able to make a piece as nice, then my piece should be worth as much as his. I'm not saying copy his. I'm saying use his as inspiration to make a unique piece that is as flawless, same skill level, same technique, etc should be worth as much as the artists, because it is art. Correct? Or is it just woodwork because the maker hasn't written a book, won awards, been in galleries, etc?

Any thoughts on the matter? What seperates a craftsman from an artist? What keeps the values so different? What should a struggling artist do to become a high priced artist?


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## BertFlores58 (May 26, 2010)

First of all, Congratulations for two years now in the LJ.

My opinion.. Craftsman pertains to skills in doing the job. For example a good sculptor, carver, etc. but not his idea or original design. Some of the Craftsman can copy a lot of work better than the original one. Artist is the one who think, design, and gives the impact to the viewers. Some instances, the artist sketch only but not doing an actual model or prototype… he needs a craftsman to do it for him. However, it does not limit each one that he can be the same guy… the artist and craftsman. If you made your own original design that will be worth expensive as you will be called the artist and craftsman (but you need to be good at it). If you buy a Sam Maloof original chair, it will be expensive than buying from a craftsman who had made (even with good quality wood or better than Sam) will again be lower priced than the original.


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## PeterM (Jun 14, 2010)

"What should a struggling artist do to become a high priced artist?"

I also wonder about this question.

I think you have to develop a recognizable stile, people have to say: "This piece must have been made by Mr. X." 
And than you have to change details, but keeping your style.
In my opinion that is the way you take inspiration from other artists without copying them.
Out of others works you develop something new.
I think, that is the difference between doing what others do and doing your own thing.
And than - after many years - people recognize your work and you can gain higher prices.

The second aspect - in the beginning many artist price their pieces much to low.
Mostly because they have to (because they need the money) or they think their work are not worthy to gain a high price (and maybe thats true because it is not their own development).
But if you price the pieces to low, the customers belive it is nothing worth.

My experience: If I sell something very quickly - it was to cheap. If i sell it after a while - it was well priced.
If i do not sell it at all - the work was to bad for this price.

That all sounds wise and smart - but reality often is different.
Sometimes you only have to have good luck. Get to know the right people who appreciate your work, who have contacts to others who appreciate your work and so on.
You get better known by collectors and the prices get higher.

Greetings from Germany
Peter


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## mafe (Dec 10, 2009)

Hi,
Yes it's a good question, and if we had the answer we would be rich!

I belive that a artist are one who invent or do something allready done with a twist that talks to people.
First of all, we can't invent the chair, it is done, but we can add a twist that make people say wauuu, and this is where the artist comes in, a good artist have the ability to do that.
A good craftsman are able to do the work perfect, but sometimes also the twist - is he a artist then? Yes I think, but perhaps in his mind not, and so what! If he is payed well and he loves his job, it's wonderful.

Me I'm a architect of education, but also of mind, I grew up as a architect (my father are a architect), so it's in my blood, I belive I have a talent for shape, colour and space, but it does not make me a artist, I'm just holding the skills. To become artist, I have to have something to express / to want to tell something / to to put my skills into something and belive so much in it, that I repeat this so many times, that I at the end find my answer, or at least are on a travel againt that point of satisfaction.
As a architect I was never saticfied, and since arcitecture are a bound artform, where we have to consider so many aspects, it becomes rearly art, but men like Corbusier, Frank Loyd Wright and Calatrava, have achived this status since they never gave up on their travel against their wishes and ideas.

A woman I know who are a painter, she said to me, that she probalyt had this moment of insiration twise a year, the rest of the time she was working like a office worker, to get closer to this moment, and to paint what she saw there…

So where do I want to go?
I want to say: 'every one is a artist', but only if you are eighter extremely talentet, extremely giftet, or extremely well connected - it comes easy.
Otherwise, you have to get up every day, and work on this same simple shape, and perhaps on the number 200 turning, you fel it was almost there, and smiles in your mind. If you are lucky others might find your work beautiful or interesting on the way, and you might get high prices - but I think the moment you belive you are there, it will disapear, to be a artist are a travel in life.
So enjoy the travel, and if you don't become 'famous', it does not matter, it's all the moments of zen, where you are there, the wood works with you, your heart beats in a calm rythm, and you are full of love for your work, that counts.

Best thoughts,
the traveler,
Mads


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## lwllms (Jun 1, 2009)

Ron Hock just and an interesting blog on this with a audio lecture link. The lectures are by a guy named Garth Clark and I enjoyed listening to them:

http://hocktools.wordpress.com/2010/07/26/craft-r-i-p/


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## Porosky (Mar 10, 2009)

Deep stuff…. My take on one difference, vocabulary examples: a vase is a vessel….. Any object you are selling is called a piece, as in a piece of art. Board with whole in middle - "This piece represents the angst of the fallen." Whoa! Not just a board with whole in middle; but a piece of art…... It happens in the lumber business all the time, example: Wormy Maple (cheap) - Ambrosia Maple (more better $) Stained Pine (no value) Blue Jean Pine (more better value)..... Part of being something is being something… Now that's deep…. I'm a philosopher.


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## donbee (Feb 7, 2009)

I've been hoping to be an Artist (upper case A intentional) when I grow up. At age 77 I'm still trying.
Some people say I am an Artist. I hope they're right.
What I lack is the confidence to represent myself that way and to price my work accordingly.
I'm somewhat put off by the extremely high prices I see on many pieces I see in Art Shows.
I have to wonder if they actually get what they're asking for.
I personally think some of it is horrible.
Why would anyone pay ANYTHING for junk?

So, I'm still searching for the way to price my work well without robbing my clients.
I think I'm going too low.

db


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

To become a successful "artist" is much like becoming a successful musician, actor, writer, etcetera. There are three basic factors involved.

1. Talent
2. Persistence
3. Luck

You can make it on any combination of those three things, as long as you have #3. But all the skill, talent, and persistence in the world will not get you to a high level of success unless you have some luck along the way.

The turnings you mentioned are a perfect example of what I'm saying. You know that there are folks posting here on LJ's who are capable of similar quality work, but that guy selling $10,000 vases just happened to get the right exposure at the right time, and he developed a reputation. Have you ever looked at some of the high-priced paintings in an art gallery? They could have been done by a blind monkey with a set of crayons, but they are fetching $20k!

The same is true for all artistic endeavors. Here in New Orleans, I often see street performers who are more talented than a lot of people selling millions of records. Hell, for that matter, I've been writing music for almost 40 years. I guarantee you that at least a dozen songs I've written could have been million sellers if performed by the right artist and given good air play. Which leads to another point…. A lot of it has to do with marketing. But that's a whole 'nother topic.


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## miles125 (Jun 8, 2007)

Just do a random search of "Artist Statements". What you'll sadly discover is you've entered a world of political lock step conformist who've sold their very souls to be excepted in the highly protectionist business of Progressive controlled art. It really is that simple and damning of the profession.


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## Porosky (Mar 10, 2009)

miles onetwentyfive.


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## grizzman (May 10, 2009)

well i dont want to read anyone's else statement until i have expressed my own thoughts on this, then ill go back and read them, i think there are several things at work…i wonder if sometimes its just looking like an artist…or one day your a good craftsman, then someone comes along and pays a high price for your work..and suddenly its like ok..if i can sell it for that much…and then if the right people continue to buy at those prices…boom your an artist..ive seen guys on this site who have made pieces that are just as good as say maloof, how did he become an artist…how do tv star's becomes so famous…a lot of the time its being in the right place and the right time…..keith you have made some fantastic work, and it should sell for a good price…i think ive made a few nice pieces and no one has offered to buy anything ive made…maybe if i color my hair or drive a weird car someone will think im a star…im rambling here…does it take a nice studio…filled with your work and probably in the right place…if you were on rodale drive in Hollywood,,,you might be an artist…i think folks like darrell pert and mark decou, and others here are artists to me…but the world doesnt think so..and at the end here, im like everyone else…not knowing what it takes to be an artist. my sister thinks im an artist….my mother thinks im an artist…now if they gave me lots of money does that seal the deal…not in my book..i think most of the wood workers on lumber jocks are artists..i really do..i consider what they do as art…i think you are an artist…now your probably not a well paid one…but that brings us back to square one…....ive heard people say they are a starving artist…..i guess i dont have any good answers…..grizz


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## closetguy (Sep 29, 2007)

Much of the gallery scene operates at a different mindset than many of us woodworkers, or craftsmen. I'm just a simple country boy. The only inanimate object in my house is me in the Lazy Boy watching the finals of the British Open. I go to gallery receptions occasionally because I have a couple of non-woodworking friends who create this kind of art. I don't, and never will, "get it".

High-end galleries, as opposed to handcrafted consignment galleries, have to really want your work in order to do business with them. They have a discriminating customer base that is really into useless items that they can proudly display in their home or office. It's not as much about whether the gallery can make a commission off your work, but more about their customers knowing or thinking that they have unique high-end works of art. Sales will come because of the gallery's reputation. From what I have seen, it appears to be a very clique'ish environment. Everyone knows each other and getting into the inner circle requires not only very nice work, but also a lot of socializing and politics.

A good friend of mine does sculptures and does very well at it financially. She has her stuff in galleries and also has the occasional featured artist gallery reception to show new works. We also do some of the same art shows. Every time I see her at her booth, she asks me what I think about certain items. My response is always the same, "It's a little too cutting edge for me". One day she asked me what I meant by that and I told her that I think they are ugly as hell and the only use I could see for one of her sculptures is for target practice with a .30-60. She will respond with "So, do want to buy a target?" She does six figures a year, so far be it me to question her artistic expressions. It took her years to get to this point, but the perseverance finally paid off.

The gallery receptions are interesting. Here are the pretty people, dressed up nice, walking around with a glass of wine looking at the most gawd awfull stuff I have ever seen. They are discussing all the nuances of each piece and genuinely sounding like they know what they are looking at. I'm standing out there in blue jeans, a pack of cigarettes rolled up in my t-shirt sleeve yelling at the bartender "What do you mean you ain't got no beer?"

The ones who do this type of work generally do well at it if they have a gallery pushing their work. If you have good pieces, time, and a knack for politics, there is money to be made. Unfortunately, this is not my type of gig. It's the oil and water syndrome.


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## stevenhsieh (Jan 8, 2010)

It's simple. As long as the person like it, he/she will buy it at any price.


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## Grumpy (Nov 9, 2007)

Persistence.


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## beginrbldr (Jan 25, 2010)

So what everyone is saying is that whomever is wanting to to get there name out and become well known from their work is that they have to actually get out and talk to people and market their art work/wood projects anyway you can Instead of having it stack up in your garage or attic or wherever collecting dust. In my opinion it is hard to market their art pieces because most people are wanting modern woodwork that fits their life style. A fancy art piece will look out of place now days depending on where you live. I personally would ask galleries what it would cost to let you show a piece or two. Whats it going to hurt. You lose a little money but your name will start to be known. And also if everyone hasn't noticed the internet is becoming every ones way of shopping for stuff. To lazy to get out or just wont get out. There are many options to get your name out. Research the best way for you and go from there. There are many talented artist/woodworkers out there. Lumberjocks and woodweb are not the only places you can post your work. Sooooo get off your butt and research and post those remarkable pieces out there. Here's another Idea. You can also ask furniture store owners to see if you can place one of your projects in there. Of course if it sells they will make a percentage. but who doesn't. I would go where most people will look. How many of you go to an art gallery once a week, month or year even. I bet not many. Showing your work, and meeting people is the best way your going to get your artwork out. No one will get known if they just stay inside there box. The people looking for Art are beyond those walls. So cut a hole in it and peak out and you'll see that their there. lol. Eventually You'll break out of it if you want recognition and make the money you deserve for you beautiful work. Good luck to All who want to be famous.


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## Chipncut (Aug 18, 2006)

I think you should use your name instead of a pseudonym in order to be better recognized.

Also I think your web site should be renamed, or redesigned in some way to attract art collectors.

Although I think you have a beautiful display of your work.

You should also enter some internationally known juried shows, because I think collectors frequent

such shows. The famous woodcarver Fred Cogelow has won, or placed in quite a few of these shows.

His carvings usually bring a minimum of $5000.

These are some of my thoughts.

Dick Cain


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## stevenhsieh (Jan 8, 2010)

*Kieth*

You live in Laguna Hills. It's an art city. 
Why not go to Sawdust Art ferstival and start there?
Festival of Arts is also another option.


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## kolwdwrkr (Jul 27, 2008)

I've been thinking about the time it takes to make a piece quite a bit. I thought that it took a little less then 100 hours to complete my lectern, but after consideration and looking at my blogs I am thinking closer to 190. The reason that I was thinking about time frame is that someone is interested in 2 more, and I quoted $9000 for two, thinking I only had 100 hours. So if I was making 1 at 100 hours that's $45 an hour, which in my opinion is still cheap for a business. Now that it is closer to 200 hours I am at a loss. 
But I don't care about that really. What I have been thinking about is this piece for $35,000. It took Dennis Zongker 200 hours to carve and build an entire dresser. There is a lot of work, and a lot of details. I am looking at this vase thinking that there is no way he could have 200 hours, but lets give him the benefit of the doubt. $35,000/200 is $175 an hour. If he spent 2 full weeks working on it full time and finished it in 80 hours (which is more reasonable to me) that is $437.50 an hour. So in two weeks worth of work, or even twice that, this gentleman can make the average blue collars yearly salary (providing that it sells). I'm sorry, but I just don't get it. You have to remember that it's not the only piece he will make either, so it's not that he needs to sell that specific one to live. He can make pieces all year and have a thousands of dollars worth of projects in short time. Not to mention that he's probably got other things going to make a buck. 
I'm not sure what to think about all that. This guy isn't alone. So obviously there's a way to sell your work at diamond prices.


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## fredf (Mar 29, 2008)

"scraps" devalue your piece. Scraps should be thrown away or given away. Drop from the description! Pieces of plywood NOT "scraps"

That is a VERY nice piece, but too expensive to be made from "scraps"

imho at least










from kolwdwrkr's website


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## tyskkvinna (Mar 23, 2010)

Fred is right.

Recycled, eco-friendly, reclaimed lumber. Not scraps.

Most successful artists are successful marketers and businessmen (or have them on their team).


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## kolwdwrkr (Jul 27, 2008)

Good point Fred. I'll have to work on my descriptions.


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## MrsN (Sep 29, 2008)

I have been playing with this same idea lately. I think getting to the point where you can get any price point is a matter of luck and persistance. 
Artists have a different attitude then woodworkers. when you show a piece to a woodworker they look at how "cool" it is, but they also are thinking how was it made, what finish is on it, do those joints line up, does the grain go in the right direction. for artists, and people who appreciate art, they look at how "cool" it is but also, what does it mean, how does it make me feel, what is its story. Not that every thing needs to be really deep, but art is emotional. 
Persistance is important. Show and tell everyone you know about being an artist. did you know that my dad's ex-girlfriends best friend owns an art gallery? neither did I until today when dad's ex-girlfriend emailed me saying she thinks one of my pieces would be perfect for the gift shop at the art gallery. Especially with all of the facebook, twitter and blogs around today, it is easy to find connections that may lead to new things.


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## Porosky (Mar 10, 2009)

Yes Yes Vocabulary. The Number one difference.


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## mysticcarver (Jan 2, 2010)

To me Art comes from a different place inside of us.An Artist just feels a need to express some part of their psyche into a form of one kind or another. Why are an artists pieces higher? Good question….I think that comes from finding a fan base. Not everyone's art will suit everyone. I have seen some that I think are to simplistic and/or not deserving of much praise….but thats not really for me to say. That piece MEANS someting to the artist and also to the person who see's something in it. I may never buy a piece of modern goth / death violent art….but its not for me to say it isn't art. The other part of this equation is exposure….you just have to get your art out there to be seen. Juried shows, exhibits,market days garage sales whatever….get people to talk about your work…..the people who like it will buy it…the others won't. Nobody's art deserves to be shot at tho…IMHO


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## Lucywu2012 (Jun 25, 2010)

What I want to say is you're quite a good artist, and I hpoe you can keep moving on art!


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## Edward83 (Jun 21, 2010)

Hmmmm, this is a great discussion and Ithink I'll throw my two cents in. I used to work at a picture framing store about ten years ago and I became really familiar with lots of artists, the Greats I mean, Van Gogh being my favorite. At the time of his life nobody thouht he was good except his immediate peers, but they knew him for his passion. He only ever sold a couple of paintings in his life, but he never stopped. The last seventy something days of his life he was painting multiple pics in a day. He loved it. The same can be said for artists in other mediums, like Charles Bukowski and his poetry or John Lennon and his music. They did not make money because they sought out money but because they persued their passions. Now I am a bible reader and I am not trying to push any belief on anyone I am just stating something. After adam and eve ate the fruit God comes looking for them and asks "Where art thou" Today we would say "are" but truely they are synonomous and both equate to the state of being, so I consider art as a state of being, only captured and preserved. I consider myself an artist, not because I make money at it but because I just like to do it and woodworking is a medium that I feel helps me to easily express myself. this is where I draw the line at skilled craftsman and artist. To ramble on just a bit more… I worked for a man a little while back that made ceramic tiles. He was an engineer, very intelligent, a bit odd. But one day he was teaching me about glazing. And he stopped what he was teaching me and said "Do you know why I do this? Because I love it" and he did anyone that worked for him thought one of two things about him, that he was an artist, or that he was nuts. But I saw the passion he has for working with clay, he told me that he never set out to do it but that it just fell into his lap and he loved it. Now he owns the largest kiln in pittsburgh and can boast of his work being in Trump's bathroom. While not every artist will be successful in there own lifetime, that is not what art is about, it is about passion and self expression. My two cents.


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