# Sharing shop equipment



## jimswoodshop (Jun 1, 2010)

I have a nice well equiped shop that i have built up over the last 15 years. the tools are all professional size and quailty. I feel this is the shop I will never out grow or have to replace for the rest of my life or the next 50 years whichever comes first. I have a few friends that ask to borrow the shop from time to time. They are good well intended people that have basic knowledge of tool usage and woodworking skills. They try and respect the tools in the shop but they are rough on them and dont understand maintence care and proper use. I want to be the good friend and share what I have. I have tried working with them and showed then how to cut joint and process the rough lumber and talked with them about wiping down the tools after any moisture has been on the metals and othe tips to keep these tools working in top shape for years to come. My question to you is how do you handle this situation in your shop. Thanks Jim


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## miles125 (Jun 8, 2007)

As therapy go out in your shop and set sweating glasses of ice water on all your equipment and just leave it. You'd be surprised how tough the stuff is and how it's rather silly to worry over actually causing it any meaningful harm. Friends…now those are different.


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## BillWhite (Jul 23, 2007)

Ain't gonna happen in my shop.
Bill


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## tyskkvinna (Mar 23, 2010)

I know most LJ'ers are against sharing tools. It's extremely reasonable of them to do so, as well.

Part of my job, is sharing tools. I run the machine shop at our sci/tech centre and the equipment is available to people to use. Part of my rule for using any of it is "If you wish to use my tools, you will use them as I tell you to". you are allowed to use the tools when I am present, or when I have given you explicit permission to use a tool at any time. You do not get to jump right into all of the tools, no matter what experience you claim to have prior. Every machine has quirks, and I want to make sure you know all of them for a machine before you use them.

Granted, it's a bit different when it's friends coming in expecting to use your stuff. Though I do encounter an awful lot of friends who feel it's silly that I impose the same rules on them. Rules are rules, everybody gets to suffer equally in my shop.


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## docholladay (Jan 9, 2010)

I look at it this way, you are generous to allow these friends the use of your shop. You have spent a lot of time and money in machinery and setup of the shop. I have two sons that like to come into my shop and build things from scraps. I have given them some of their own tools to work with, but they do occasionally need to use the machines and other tools. I only allow this, when I am there to supervise and I expect them to treat the tool the same way that I would. If they wish to be allowed to use the tools, then these are the rules to live by. If they aren't willing follow those rules, then they don't get to use the tools. I would suggest the same approach. Anyone that will not respect you enough to be careful with these "expensive" tools that you have invested in, doesn't deserve the right to have access. It is good of you to be willing to share and help others. There is a responsibility on their part to be allowed that privilege.


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## Milo (Apr 24, 2009)

Noone (I think) has mention LIABILITY in this thread yet. NOONE uses tool in my shop except, primarily for tihs very reason. Someone loses a finger, your screwed.

Sorry for the bad language.

Just plop down that Liabilty issue down in front of your friends and make a momument of it. Let no amount of "ah, we're friends, I'd never do that to ya" sway your thinking.

It's an easy, and very safe, "out" of letting people use your tools.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

If you want a good excuse to say "no", Milo's option is perfect. Other than that, the only choice I see is to continue doing what you are doing….. instruct them in the proper use and care of the tools, and grit your teeth when they mess up.


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## vicrider (Jun 19, 2010)

In my experience, the liability issue is top priority. I will let friends borrow screwdrivers and wrenches, but when it comes to the finger-eating machines, no way. I wouldn't want to lose what little I have just to do someone a favor. Of course, I have been known to blow a day or two or more doing it for them.

I have found that if you address the issue up front and with explanations, real friends won't be offended.

vicrider


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## KentS (May 27, 2009)

In a perfect world, people would actually respect the property of others. Unfornunately we don't live in a perfect world. I have replaced too many tools over the years that I loaned to "friends" because they either never returned them or desroyed them. I still will loan my shop or tools to a select few, but as time goes on, I am very reluctant to do so.

In my production shop, I have always had to "share" with others. Of course, they work for me. I am amazed how little most of them care about keeping up with, or taking care of my tools. I can't buy really good hand tools there because of that.

I built my home shop to get away from that. It is nice to always be able to find what I need-when I need it.
I didn't start out so cynical, but being abused has a way of messing with your attitude.


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## Gregn (Mar 26, 2010)

Lets see you said you have a nice shop, or was it you *had* a nice shop. With the exception of kids I don't allow the use of my shop. With kids I'm teaching them something and their time is limited at that. As for friends I don't loan out my shop. To one or two I may borrow out a tool but thats a different subject. The shop is my domain and there I rule the world. I invite who I want into my shop to visit, and who I don't want in my shop.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I have to agree with Miles125, the stuff is tough. I would take it on a case by case basis. I would accomodate "good" friends, but not those who are fair weather friends.


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## miles125 (Jun 8, 2007)

I can't imagine anyone on their death bed saying "I wish i'd been more persnickety about keeping my fleeting stuff in perfect order and insisted more that my friends not screw it up". I'm just saying….


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## TheDane (May 15, 2008)

NOBODY borrows my tools or uses my shop. I'll offer to help them do the job (so I am using my own tools) or just do it for them.


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## Sawdust2 (Mar 18, 2007)

I have a group that comes to my house. They are all experienced. They can use any tool.
I have a friend with an even better shop and when I go there I can use any tool.
Something breaks we all get in on the fix.
I have never had a power tool wear out because I let a friend use it.
I do not, as a general rule, let a power tool leave the shop.
But, my friends take care, are careful, and it is good to have someone back you up every now and then.

Works for us.

Lee


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## christopheralan (Mar 19, 2008)

My shop, my tools. Period. I hate to be a back-side about it, but everyone knows the deal. My shop helps me make money, and I can't afford to be without a tool due to someone making a mistake. There is also a liability in having other in my shop. I can't pay for their medical bills if something were to happen. My friends and neighbors all know my stance on this subject and they all respect it, due to the fact that the rule applies to everyone. No exceptions.


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## BTKS (Nov 30, 2008)

Just had a buddy see my shop the other day and bring up the topic of working up some boards there. I got a real uneasy feeling and wondered how I was going to handle it if he followed up with actually bringing out some boards.
I think this particular guy will replace anything he damages but it opens the precedent of, "he used the shop, why can't I." 
Thanks for getting me thinking. 
Milo and others, thanks for bringing up LIABILITY. As much as I hate the thought of having insurance companies and lawyers affect how I decide what to do with my tools it is reality. Money talks!
Later, BTKS


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## juniorjock (Feb 3, 2008)

Just say "no" and give your reasons. You really don't have to explain a lot. "No" is a powerful word. Use it. About the glass on the top of my table saw…. that's why I keep a baseball bat in the shop…. Hell, I panic when a drop of "my" sweat hits the table. I guarantee that sweat will make something rust faster than anything.


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## PurpLev (May 30, 2008)

I agree with Miles, Generally speaking, I won't lent out my shop or tools, but if a friends want to use something - I'd be more than happy to get in the shop with them, show them what needs to be done and how, and let them at it. I take full responsibility of cleaning up and retuning whatever needs be, and if they volunteer to do that for me- all the better, however I do not expect it from them - this is part of my giving.

life happens, tools need maintenance and care, and so do friends.
Tools can be replaced and upgraded, Friends - now thats complicated.

sounds like you're doing well, and feel like most people would feel in this situation. thats a good thing.


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## Ger21 (Oct 29, 2009)

This is why I don't have any friends, Much easier. ;-)


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## miles125 (Jun 8, 2007)

I know what this discussion reminds me of now. That twitch i get in my left eye when seeing a five year old f-150 pickup without a scratch in the bed. It is what trucks are for!


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

That is the way I feel about stuff. I'm always glad when the first scratch happens; I don't have to worry about it anymore )


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## lilredweldingrod (Nov 23, 2009)

When I was in the welding business, I had to carry a 1 million dollar liability policy and a 5 Million umbrella policy and both had to subservient to the customers insurance policy. That meant they went through mine before theirs every came into play. 
You want to use my tools and shop, show me the insurance policies and you can play to your hearts content. If you hurt yourself, I suggest you have enough insurance to handle your stupidity. If a tool burns up are gets broke, you just bought it for replacement price. And this is in writing, signed and notarized.
So far no one wants to buy the insurance, go to the notary, etc. so I have my shop to myself. 
I have a very good friend, he is the best mechanic I have ever known. He wanted to borrow my Snap-on line wrenches. I took him to Autozone and spent 13 bucks on a set and gave them to him. Problem solved.
Same thing with loaning money. Chances are you will not get it back, so just give it to them. You aren't mad and they don't avoid you. I figure that if I can loan it I can afford to give it away. If I can't afford to give it, I can't afford to loan it.
My two cents. Rand


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## edgarO (Jun 12, 2010)

Back when I was a mechanic, certain techs had certain tools. we all knew how to use them correctly so we would let each other borrow tools. but if you broke the tool, you were buying a new or replacement tool.
my $.02


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## Eagle1 (Jan 4, 2010)

There are only 2 people that I would let them use my shop. One is my cousin, the other is my neighbor across the street. I would also be in there with them. I know both of them well enough, that if they messed up something that they would replace it. I would also let me use something that I don't have if I needed it. So I feel if they would do that for me then I should do that for them. BUT I don't let my kids use them at all. I have lost wrenches to many time when doing that, if I do let them use them it is at my house, not anywhere else. They have to put it back where they got it, and I check that they have done so, if not them they don't use it again.


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## CampD (Nov 8, 2008)

I have more then $.02 to say on this subject so I'll refrain!


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

Just put up a sign that says "I don't loan tools or my shop due to insurance reasons" should eliminate the problem. If someone doesn't understand,explain it to them.


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## Knothead62 (Apr 17, 2010)

A fellow had a hot dog cart on the corner. A friend asked if he could borrow $10. The hot dog vendor told him, " I have an agreement with the bank. They don't sell hot dogs and I don't loan money." 
Also, I think the liability issue is a valid point.


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## SnowyRiver (Nov 14, 2008)

I dont lend my tools at all…. stationary or hand tools. Sometimes if someone has a simple cut they need to make I will offer to do it for them, but I do all the work myself. Usually if a friend, or even a relative starts asking me if I have a certain tool, I will acknowledge it, and then immediately say, you can rent one of those at the local tool rental. If they come right out and ask me for mine, I willl say sorry, I dont borrow tools.

I always have people asking me to use my chainsaw, or expensive gas powered Stihl pole saw so I have said no lots of times.


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## littlevern (Sep 18, 2008)

If I have a friend over I will help him get started. If he is competent at using my tools he is welcome to them. 
I figure I bought them once I can buy them again. It isn't like they quit making them. I am not so cheap I can't buy some more. I sure can't take them with me when I die.
Someone did me a favor one time. 
It would be a lonely world without ant friends.


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## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

Well, I built a shop and I bought the tools so that they can be shared.
I beleive that God gave me the money and the ability to built this shop and to buy the tools, to open it to the church and some of the people who are a part of the church I attend. 
I would never had spend the money I am spending just for my own use or enjoyment. 
God owns it all and He let me use His shop and His tools fro me to bless Him and glorify Him by serving His church and other believers.
I certainly am not a fool and I know that some day I will bit my fingers for doing what I am doing but this isthe covenant between God and I.
Certainly not everyone will be authorized to use the shop and the tools, only those that I know and that I trust. 
If someoen breaks seomehtign he will have to replace it.
About liability, certainly this is a concern but I believe that God is big enough to take care of that also .
Bert


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

Vern and B2rtch: I certainly respect your point of view and I have spent most of my life giving people stuff but in this day an age people have a tendency to sue you over anything.(case in point the guy using the tablesaw)
It just isn't worth it to me to take the chance. If "friends" get their feelings hurt, they were not very good "friends" to begin with.
I know there are people that will take exception to this stance and that is their perogative. But that's the way I feel.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

And, it doesn't have to be the friend that wants to sue. If the injury is covered by insurance, they will go after anyone they can to recover their loss, even if that person is not guilty of any negliance. I have had insurance compaines try that with me, but not about friends susing tools.


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## rimfire7891 (Jun 15, 2010)

IMHO
There is a difference between your work for a living shop and your personal shop. I only have a personal shop now. Did have a professional auto shop years ago and charged friends the going rate for jobs that came in the front door, Charged mates rates when they helped outside of working hours. People do understand the difference if you let them. 
I lend anything and everything (not including the wife) I have, to my friends. Sometimes it seems that I give more than I get however it always comes back more than I could ever want. I can use the neighbours skid steer to do a little landscaping work if need be. He asks me to help with the installation of a shifter on his Tremec 5 speed in his ' 67 Chevelle. The neighbour a mile over has a Case loader tractor very useful for lifting an engine out. I fix his kitchen cupboards. he lends me his lawn mower when the engine grenaded on the wife last weekend. The new one won't be in for a week. Needed to pickup a FJ40 a while ago, neighbour used his truck and trailer to pick it up, he drove and did more work than me loading it. He used his fuel. We use our house for the harvest party in the fall, and we are not farmers. He grain farms 5000 acres so the harvest crew is a few people. They bring most of the food and drink, but uses my wife tools in her kitchen.
My neighbour from town, when we lived there 20 years ago comes and uses my shop from time to time, usually leaves it cleaner than when he came in. Also checks on our house when we are away for a week or so and the son isn't available for that week. He usually leaves extra wood for my use. He ives in town so it is a 20 min. drive for him to our place.
My 82 year old farmer friend needs some help once and a while, he lives an hour away, he has never once not filled my gas tank when I go see him. He gives me meat when he butcher's an animal, I work on his odd jobs around his farm and learn something as well.

If your friends wreck something, give them some one on one instruction, you might just learn something yourself.

Do you guys who don't lend your stuff, have any friends? Always invert,always invert, it might change your appreciation of the world.
I have always found it comes back in spades, try it, nothing (tools etc) is ever that valuable that it can't be replaced/fixed Try replacing a good friend or neighbour.

Rant off.

Thanks jb


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

I will usually have no problem helping someone with a project in my shop, but I usually operate the dangerous power tools. A few of my friends….one owns cabinet shop, the other is a contractor…I trust using my stuff…but I have to be there. I would never just let anyone use my stuff and walk away. I hate to admit it but I am way too anal, and way too protective of my stuff, and my woodworking equipment is my gold! The liability thing bothers me too…everyone is a buddy till they loose a finger on your saw..and some lawyer friend gets a hold of them "so, you say there was no guard on that saw, huh?"...next thing you know you re getting sued…


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## TVW640 (Jul 5, 2010)

I have a nice shop, with a nice variety of professional grade tools. I don't make my living in my shop, and my perspective might be different if I did. I love to share my shop, and my tools. My neighbor's sons are in scouts and I have allowed two of them to use the shop for their Eagle projects, along with an open invitation to their troop for any other scouts who want to use it. So far one has used it for his Eagle project also. I remember woodshop in high school and how much it influenced me. I hope I can have a positive woodworking influence on someone who may not otherwise have the chance. I teach them safety, eye, ear and respiratory protection. If they don't feel comfortable using a tool, I perform the task for them. I have a SawStop industrial so I don't get too nervous, other than kick backs, with anyone using the table saw. Most of their dads are there when we are working so it is really a group fun day.


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## jusfine (May 22, 2010)

I will cut, thickness, plane, resaw or sand for my friends, but the key is that I do it for them.

Most are not serious woodworkers, and don't know how to operate the tools, or aren't interested (only need the final result), so I do not take any chances with their fingers or my tools…


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## Bearpie (Feb 19, 2010)

Nobody, I mean NOBODY takes care of your tools the way you do and nobody can do a good enough job of taking care of your tools! I had 7 employees at one time and I could trust only one to do a good enough job without any supervision at all, the rest I had to baby sit or keep checking on them making sure they do it right. The one I trusted took care of my tools, the others Phfft! As long as I was around they took care but let me be gone…... I have replaced and repaired far too many tools to feel comfortable enough to loan them out any more indiscriminately and without supervision, so I just don't. One other thing also is paramount, like a few others have said, liability!

Erwin, Jacksonville, FL


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## TheDane (May 15, 2008)

@rimfire7891-Yes, I do have friends. They are the people that I will help do a project, including doing it myself. I have some friends that have tools, and AFAIK, they don't loan their stuff out, either.


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

Dane: Well said. Same here


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

I think Topo said it already - the liability thing is crushing.
My situation is a little different, that really only one of my friends is a woodworker, so I do favors for others and don't mind a bit. I have worked with the scouts as well but under rather close supervision.
So I agree with Rimfire, but one thing about the US health insurance companies, is that THEY will sue you even though your friend was not going to. When the hospital bill comes in for the 'accident' if it happened on your property, the Health insurance expects the homeowners policy to pay first.
If it is someone elses home, they will go after your policy.
So it doesn't matter what notarized and signed in blood agreement may exist, if they are hurt and need medical help, YOU are on the hook.

You get the same for kids injuries, the insurance company reads that the kid fell, and they will call you on the phone to ask WHERE did they slip..At the shopping center, of we need to file XYZ….they then go after the property owner.


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## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

" I have some friends that have tools, and AFAIK, they don't loan their stuff out, either." 
Personaly I would not call them friends but acquaintances. 
I believe that a friend shares everything his has.


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## jusfine (May 22, 2010)

In that case, Bert, I'd like to share the cost of my new DC system with you…


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## SnowyRiver (Nov 14, 2008)

My friends respect what I have and dont ask to use it…thats why we have kept each other as friends. It works both ways though. I have mentioned to neighbors or friends that I want to do something that requires a tool that I dont have….sometimes they will say they have the tool if I need it, but I always say no, I will get one or rent it. I dont want to take advantage of them either.


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## miles125 (Jun 8, 2007)

""Personaly I would not call them friends but acquaintances."" 
Bert

Exactly. A friend is someone who will fix the frayed cord on your jigsaw before returning it in a timely manner.


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## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

miles125: Amen.
A friend is a person who places his friends before himself.
If not, he is not friend.
If your friends do not do as miles125 says they should do, they are not your friends either.
That's why I believe that someone will never have more than one or two , may be three friends in his entire life. 
What people in the USA call friends are in fact acquaintances, not friends.
A friend is more than a brother, he is a part of you.
I had one friend in France. 
I have been in the US for 27 years and so far I never meet anyone I can call friend. 
May be my expectations are just to high.


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## TheDane (May 15, 2008)

Well, my neighbor is my friend … I help him with projects, and he helps me. Neither of us has ever asked the other to borrow or loan any tools or equipment … they just seem to come along to whatever the project is.

Another neighbor a quarter mile down the road is what I call an acquaintance. He is a county board politician, and the only time we ever see or hear from him is in the run-up to an election. He is everybody's buddy until the ballots are counted.


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## NathanAllen (Oct 16, 2009)

My big issue is my wife lending out my time. It can be a royal pain to share the very little time I have to work on my projects with helping a friend's husband install crown, refinish tables, sand and repair decks, and so on.


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## TheDane (May 15, 2008)

My wife did that once … I told if she ever did it again, I would start to volunteer her to other wives in the neighborhood to help them with quilting and sewing projects!


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## SCOTSMAN (Aug 1, 2008)

Unless they are very close friends and even, then not without my pesence ,the dangers are too many.Also no one respects equipment like the owner.so generally i would say no , and never without me being present.I quite often do small cutting jobs free for neighbours but that's it, as far as I am concerned plus thoughs you don't really know can't be trusted too many pocketable things sorry my 2 cents.Alistair


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## TheDane (May 15, 2008)

*Alistair!* Good to see you back in the forums!


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## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

Alistair, I am glad to see that your hand is well enough that you can type again.


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## nate22 (Jul 12, 2010)

IF it was my shop no one is allowed in my shop unless I am there and thats not very often. Only person I let in my shop is my brother and he respects my tools and doesn't mess them up. I say if your friends keep miss using your tools in the wrong way then don't let them use them. Because if your tools get ruined your the one that has to replace them. I know it sounds harsh but sometimes you have to do those kind of things. Thats my opion about it.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

I see the tools as just stuff and are all replaceable…and if broken, my friends would bend over backwards to fix/pay for.

I only worry about them being injured, as that is going to cost me dearly.

When if they/you go to the hospital you get to explain how you got hurt during your check-in with the nurse. Even if it is ME that is injured in My shop - health insurance will deny the claim, and demand that I take up the payment through my homeowners policy. Just as if something happens while driving, they demand payment from the Auto insurance company.

So when your friend needs a five stiches because he got nipped on the router table making a raised panel, his only choices are for him to just pay out of pocket, or make a claim against your homeowner policy.

It need not be serious , nor being concerned about being sued. If they got hurt at your place YOU have a problem. 
I allow folks to borrow tools, routers, skil saws and such, but am very cautious about someone working in my home shop. Nobody was ever upset that I DID a job for them rather than turning them loose in my shop.


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## brukilla (Jul 9, 2009)

I have been borrowing tools and shops over the past year to take care of whatever necessary project comes up. I try to get portable tools to take care of the job, but sometimes it just makes sense to borrow something or use a shop, radial arm saw especially. It takes intrinsic qualities to clean up and care for stuff as another would. If I don't know, I ask and then do what the person wants.

ALWAYS impose the "Break It You Buy It" rule, and let them know how much it costs.

Here is something you can do: Even if the person borrowing at the time is the culprit, just tell them of a bad situation that happened recently with 'someone else', a tool breaking, a tool rusting, etc. That person may see the error of their ways and clean up shop. If not, try try again, but let them know exactly what they did wrong. Speak up when needed - they may not know how much the stuff means to you. If they're friends, they will get over the 'obsessive' nature, or make fun of you for it but still clean up shop.


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## ProbablyLost (Oct 7, 2008)

Really?


> ?


 they are just tools. You can't take them with you. I think most of you would let a friend use your car/truck if they needed to. Why not a router?


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## mrfixitri (May 16, 2009)

*You know, if your homeowner's (or business, if that is what your shop is for) insurance agent/carrier were to find out you were allowing non-family to use your shop, they'd likely drop you like a bad habit. Look at your policy. You probably have a very small "medical expenses" coverage. Typically, it's only a few thousand $$. This is usually for the slip & falls. When was the last time you heard a finger re-attachment procedure costing a few thousand bucks? Most people don't even get this. Your paltry medical coverage (again, this is your homeowner's or business policy we're talking about) won't cover a months worth of painkillers. Guess who'll make up the shorfall… 
Milo's right: Liability, Liability, LIABILITY. Hospitalization. Physical therapy. LOST WAGES (THAT'S a real butt-kicker). I think real friends would understand this. Besides, it's an easy 'out.'*


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## littlevern (Sep 18, 2008)

If all we worried about is liability BS we shouldn't even get out of bed.
Quit being so insecure.
Live a little bit. You won't get another shot at it.
When I die I want to leave it all here.
Not like I have a choice.


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

When I die I will leave it all here. But I want to keep it while I'm here, not have to give it to some lazy slob that never worked a day in their life looking for something for nothing.


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## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

Howie, many years ago I heard that the only things that we take with us when we die, are those things that we have given. 
This has guide my life since.
I am sorry for you, you will go empty handed.


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

b2 that is an unfair statement as you do not know me. I've given a lot in my life. Money,love ,material objects I've given when I really did not have it to give. I do not think I'm being selfish by not setting myself up for a fall.
I'm also a realist, I read the paper, I watch the news and I see what happens to people. I can name you a lot of stories about honest people that gave and it came back to haunt them.
Do not judge me because I don't judge you.
BTW I know God too and I think the good deeds I have done will get me through the gates. I have no regrets.
If this website is going to start judging peoples character then maybe I need to go elsewhere. 
I am also a Vietnam Vet an believe me I gave there too!


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

"If this website is going to start judging peoples character then maybe I need to go elsewhere."

I don't think that's very common, around here, but … THIS thread surely brought that out in a few people.

I'm with you: I don't like it, either.

The word is "dogmatic," and it means:

characterized by or given to the expression of opinions very strongly or positively as if they were facts

People ARE getting pretty dogmatic about this.

I don't see the need or the purpose.


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

Thanks NB


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## rimfire7891 (Jun 15, 2010)

Seems this thread has touched a few hot buttons. Also seems there are them that do, them that don't and some on either side of the middle. Much like the make up of any free society.
I think each one of us has to make up our mind about sharing. Personally I feel much better about giving but others may not. I think the liability thing thing can be used as a crutch, life is all about taking risks, or calculated risks as my dad used to say.
Maybe you guys who live in the US have to worry a little more about the liability issue, so far in Canada it hasn't got out of hand however it is coming slowly into our society. Our woodwork club has been meeting for about 25 years and we use each other shop's for joint projects we do for charities. We don't carry liability insurance, but I would say it is something we may be doing in the near future. 
Censure generally and praise by name goes a long way to keep the peace in these kinds of discussions.

Thanks jb


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## jusfine (May 22, 2010)

I have to agree with NB and Howie, that comment is very judgemental and getting *really* skewed off of the topic…

Now, where's my horse?


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

Rimfire: I bear hunted and fished in Canada for twelve years straight. I never had a problem because I always played by the Canadian rules. I always felt welcomed everywhere I went and I always had a good time. It's a lot different world when you cross that border.


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## littlevern (Sep 18, 2008)

I, like Randy, Think it is all about "Faster horses. Younger women, Older whiskey, & more money". & Howie as well. Get a bigger hammer.
Hell let's all just get drunk, and discuss the important things in life. Like horses, women, beer, whiskey & tequila.
Doe's anyone know what a drink called "Three wise men" is made of?


> ?


???


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## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

I apologize to Howiefor being judgmental , even if I think that really I was not.

I just reacted to what you wrote, to how you described yourself: "I want to keep it while I'm here, not have to give it to some lazy slob that never worked a day in their life looking for something for nothing.

And about judgmental, what about this?

''to some lazy slob that never worked a day in their life looking for something for nothing".

Again if I offended anyone, I apologize. 
Truth often hurts.

" BTW I know God too and I think the good deeds I have done will get me through the gates. " 
We also could talk theology, one of my favorite past time. 
Your theology and mine are quite different but I believe that is not he right forum to do that.
Blessings
Bert


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

*Vern Little*:

Which one ?

http://www.drinksmixer.com/cat/475/


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## littlevern (Sep 18, 2008)

Jack Daniels
Jim Beam
Jose Cuervo
I did,n know there were as many.


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## jusfine (May 22, 2010)

Ah, Vern, you have misquoted me… 

I only ride the fast horse, and leave the rest behind!


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## jimswoodshop (Jun 1, 2010)

WOW 8 DAYS AND STILL RUNNING I am somewhat sorry I brought up the issue because of all the strong opinions and differences that we have expressed. But I appreciate all that have written in. Overall I think we as a group of united individuals in pursuit of enhancing and sharing our woodworking skills and interests have done a good job of voicing our opinions and being respectful of others opinions and ways of doing things. Thank you for all the replies and help with my dilemma, your responses have allowed me to further understand my feelings on the issue about sharing shop equipment. I think my underlying concern of sharing the shop with friends is the abed expenses of the shop. I hate to bring it down to money but sometimes money is an issue to be dealt with. (And no I don't put a price on friendship). My resistance on the sharing of the shop equipment is centered around all the extra expenses I encounter because in the past more inexperienced hands have been hard on shop equipment to the point of chipping teeth on Forrest blades. Busting or dulling router bits, burning forstner bits because of too heavy a cut, sanding belts that get ruined after one or two passes again because of heavy hands, band saw bladed that get ruined because the set has been taken out of them due to improper tool set up. One event that I experienced recently a cut way too heavy was taken on my Powermatic dual drum sander and this led to moderate damage that I may have to pay for. The user was trying to hurry through a project and as the stock was feeding through the wood broke through the sandpaper and dug into the rubberized aluminum roller filling the room with the smell and smoke of burnt rubber. The roller now has a noticeable defect that affects the quality of the woods surface on that area of the roller it's a small but noticeable amount. My friend was trying to save a few dollars instead of buying a small chest he thought he would make his own and save $20.00. This one time in the shop netted him a $20.00 savings but cost me 2 sanding belts at $8.00 each a broken router bit and unknown dollar damage to the sander I have yet to fix. I am not counting the consumables and other insufficient expenses of the shops upkeep or operating expenses. I believe the motors and cast iron and steel of woodworking machines we use can take a lot of abuse. But there are additional costs that can come about from an attempt at a good deed. I don't think this would be much of an issue but working for a living and earning the income I do make the budget tight and I have to watch all my expenses lately since my income has been cut in half. (Not crying just being complete of thought). 
Anyway what I have decided to do is keep the number of users to a minimum. Ask that they buy their own router bits hand tools and special tooling. Also I want to see if they would be offended by having an honor jar and explain that the money is needed to replace consumables that are needed for all shops. 
Thanks again for all your input
Jim Hibbs


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## Sawdust2 (Mar 18, 2007)

Jim
Good response.
I gather from the comments of those of us who allow others to use our shop that everyone contributes something for the privilege of using the shop.
I'm not going to charge for the electricity we all use but someone will bring extra wood, someone will bring a supply of sandpaper. It goes without saying that if you break something it is your responsibility to fix it. If you wear something out it may be that the machine was in need of replacement and that is more difficult but clearly if you abused the sander and caused the damage then it is that persons responsibility to make the repair, and not at their convenience. Otherwise everyone else gets penalized. I may be the one having it fixed but he is the one that gets the bill.
We have all worked together long enough that we know the rights and responsibilities. May be that you need to first do some educating the folks you allow in your shop.
If you run the jointer and neglect to check for nails or brads or staples and you ding the knives, you have the knives sharpened. We may all get involved in resetting the knives so we all learn and check each other. It's good to have someone in the group what is anal and wants things .0001.
We have had as many as 8 and as few as 4 on a regular basis.
Not a professional shop and my living does not depend on it, just my enjoyment and relaxation.
Oh, yeah. Not everyone who wants to work in my shop is allowed to. Only those that pass the experience test or who work with us and learn the ropes and rules.
And I don't worry about liability. There is something called assumption of the risk. If you aren't willing to take the time to learn how to use the tool you don't use it. This is not a business so you are a guest, not an invitee. Standard of care is different.
I think you are on the road to a good time with some good friends.
Lee


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Jim I think your approach is a solid one.
Lee I truly hope that liability remains something that doesn't drive decisions.
I have the same issues when I have am keeping track of 6 Weebelo's working on their Craftsmanship pins, or holding the pinewood derby clinic, that nothing bad happens.
Because of the tasks we focus on, I do not turn the 10 year olds loose on the table saw, so I am not worried about getting fingers reattached.

My concern (usually only in the back of my mind) are the potential minor injuries, someone hits a nail or chips a carbide router bit and gets a piece stuck in thier hand.
How quickly the situation changes, because their insurance claim is denied. So rather than the Co-pay they have a 2500 dollar bill from the ER for 2 stiches and extraction of the carbide piece. So they knock on your door and say "Geeze Lee, I hate to ask this but my insurance refuses to pay the bill, who underwrites your home-owners insurance?" 
Assumption of risk falls apart when you get a nice fat Emergency Room Bill.
Although the won't and never planned to SUE …Isn't the same as getting their medical bills covered!


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## reggiek (Jun 12, 2009)

When someone asks to borrow my tools, I will frankly tell them that I am extremely possessive of my tools and that they are set and adjusted for my use only. I give them a list of several rental places in my area that they are more then welcome to rent the tools they need there. I have come to this tight fisted approach after receiving tools that were loaned out - that are broken beyond repair, dinged blades, cracked cases, broken attachments (missing attachments)...even several that must be completely replaced. If it is a small job they need performed, I will offer to do it for them, but I will not let them use my shop…..period.

I have and still do on occassion borrow tools myself….but I will fix, adjust, maintain and then return the tool after borrowing (most are returned in better shape then I receive them). It amazes me that folks feel it is ok to treat others property any differently then they would treat their own. Our union shop has a real problem with tools - Too many are stolen, they are abused terribly, when/if returned they are broken or so mishandled that the tool looks to be many more years older then they are. Then these folks have the nerve to complain about the quality of the tools they receive….I have told several that if they took care of them that they would find that the tool works better and is more reliable.


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