# Five stars for blatent theft



## DaleM (Feb 18, 2009)

RTB, I just checked it out. Exactly 30 dollars more (plus more tax) for the PC 6" bench jointer. Here are the links for anyone that might be considering one of these. It makes me wonder if either of these is any good or are they up to the usual Black and Decker quality. I opened both pages and compared and they are the exact same tool on the outside so you can't convince me that one has a better motor, etc.

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=33781-32764-JT160&lpage=none

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=80877-70-PC160JT&lpage=none&cm_mmc=search_gps-_-gps-_-gps-_-PORTER-CABLE%202-Blade%20120-Volt%20Bench%20Jointer


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## Odie04 (Oct 22, 2009)

Kind of like if you buy a Jaguar, you're buying a Ford? One just looks cooler.


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## woodsmithshop (Sep 10, 2008)

the delta weighs 41.5 lbs, and the motor drive system is universal poly v belt, the PC weighs 35 lbs, the drive motor system is chain and sprocket, chain and sprocket????? does this mean that you have to pedal it? does B&D own PC or Delta?


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## MikeGager (Jun 15, 2009)

so where is the black and decker version?


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## MikeGager (Jun 15, 2009)

i guess this might explain it

from wikipedia…

The Black & Decker Corporation markets its name under various brands:

DeWalt Power Tools 
Porter Cable 
Delta Machinery 
Kwikset 
Baldwin 
Weiser Lock 
Price Pfister 
Emhart Teknologies 
Oldham Blades 
Black and Decker Firestorm


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## reggiek (Jun 12, 2009)

Most of this stuff is made in the same factories using the same unskilled labor and the only difference is the name they paint on the exterior. It's the fault of the consumers though as we are the ones that demand cheap prices….as long as we buy this crap at cheap prices…there will be companies providing it to us.

The problem now a days is to find a company that still sells tools that are made of high grade materials with good QC and great customer support….Even the better companies…like PM are turning towards the cheap labor…and it is becoming easier and easier to cite an instance of the low quality starting to cause problems…

The only thing we can do is to vote with our wallets - and that might mean having to spend a few extra dollars to get a durable "well made" product.


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## rtb (Mar 26, 2008)

Sorry Mike they forgot one-just plain B&D….Reggiek I think the point is that is that they are trying to sell us cheap junk at HIGHER prices. I just checked and I believe that the other machine I saw was the 12" planer but can't find a delta for comparison.


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## jond (Dec 16, 2008)

I don't think there's that much corporate malice going on. While it does seem underhanded to charge more for the same product, I think it's just a case of realigning brands. Delta Porter Cable (one company) used to have a "Delta Shopmaster" brand for diy types who wanted a tool, such as the low-end jointer pictured here. The Black and Decker company wanted products in the "Shopmaster" price point but were aiming the Delta brand at a higher market - real industrial machinery such as their new Unisaw. They didn't want the Delta brand diluted, and they had the "Porter-Cable" brand sitting around not producing any stationary tools, so they have moved the old Shopmaster products into the new value-driven Porter-Cable brand. Also notice the newer Porter-Cable portable power tools sold at the home centers - these new tools are competing at the prices of Hitachi and Ryobi, not Makita, Milwaukee or Dewalt. Black and Decker wants a clear hierarchy to their tool lines: Black and Decker at the bottom, Porter-Cable in the middle, and Dewalt (portable)/Delta (stationary) at the top.

It does seem lame though, doesn't it?


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## dbhost (Jul 20, 2009)

The overwhelming majority of power tools available as new to the buying public are just variations on the same models made in the same factories, with mostly the same parts. Compare for example a Central Machinery 14" band saw, to a Ridgid 14" band saw. There are in all honesty, FAR fewer models of various power tools available to the buying public than the average consumer would think. Part of the difference consumers are paying for is brand name recognition.

Yes it's legal, and yes it's common. I mean really. How different is say a Buick than a comparable Chevrolet? Or a Mercury from a Ford?


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## papadan (Mar 6, 2009)

If the PC with chain and sprockets weighs 6 lbs less than a delta with belt drive, then the PC has a lot more plastic in the body and the Delta is metal.


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## Jimi_C (Jul 17, 2009)

Wow, I had no idea B&D owned all those brands.


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## bunkie (Oct 13, 2009)

And now Stanley has bought B&D. There was a humorous piece in a recent woodworking magazine set 50 years in the future and there were only two tool companies left: PorterCableBoschMakitaHitachiDeWaltPowerMatic and Festool.

Life, it seems, really does imitate art.


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## skywalker01 (May 19, 2009)

Have you ever seen the price of a tool go up while the tool actually remains the same? No, this is common practice with not only tools but toys and all kinds of other goods. In order to raise the price of the thing they just tweak something a little bit and bring it right back out to the public, at a higher price. Things don't really get cheaper over time. The companies obviously want to make more money. The don't want to keep losing profits over and over. They want to increase them. Imagine if I sold you a planer for $200 and then turned around 1 year later and sold the exact same product to your neighbor for $250. I don't think your neighbor would think that was really cool. That is there way of dealing with higher profits and inflation and such without making everyone pissed off. Apple does this very thing. You buy an iphone now for say 299 then in a couple months when the cool factor dies down they sell the same exact iphone for 100 dollars less and bring out a new one with better features ( or sometimes the exact same iphone!!) at the same price or cheaper than the one you bought. If only you would have waited for a couple of months! But, then the cycle continues forever. Something newer and greater comes out every couple months or so. Somehow they get away with it. I should know I have one and I love it.

I got off track there. I have two of the deltas just like the pictures above. They are great little workhorses, but you can't do anything longer than say 3'. The table aren't dead even and mine are not adjustable( maybe they fixed that since then). The rheostat broke on one and I had to hard wire it to only one speed. It is about 12 years old though. we use them to route the edges of small plastic interior signs to get a nice look and feel. They both work really well. I did notice the PC version the other night. Looks exactly the same. Maybe they made it adjustable…. Cya


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## BillyJ (Aug 18, 2009)

I don't want to beat a dead horse, as this was discussed many times, but as companies go on buying sprees in order to keep alive, they are also outsourcing their work. I am not saying that foreign companies do not make good products, but if it is going to be sold at Lowes, HD, or some other box store (including Walmart), it better be priced accordingly. Yes, we get what we pay for, and if all you are looking for is a one-time tool, then buying tools made in third-world countries is the only way to go.

If an American company is going to stay in business today, selling to Americans, then they will need to make their products offshore. Otherwise, someone else based in China will do it, and the American company will go out of business.

Unfortunately, they are still charging prices that reflected quality craftsmanship. This is where a good/great company can still stay afloat. I will purchase a great piece of machinery, and pay top dollar, if it is quality. In cases like this, the product is not available in the box stores, rather I have to purchase them online.

Sorry if my 2-cents offends someone, but you get what you pay for. I find that saving my money for the good stuff pays in the long run.


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## trem99 (Oct 11, 2009)

The Lowes near my work had the Delta Shopmaster above on clearance last week for $150 while the Porter Cable was still marked at $269. $150 for a new in box 6" jointer seemed unreal to me even being the shopmaster brand.

By day I am an engineer working on industrial equipment. We've spent a lot of time over the last few years sourcing components in China to cut costs and stay competive…..and we even have a certain corporation mentioned above manufacturing items for us in India. It is cheaper for one factory to make a million of something than to have ten factories making 100,000 each.

I agree with BillyJ above, I tend to save up for the good stuff… but in many cases the good stuff is just a variation of the average stuff, made in the same factory overseas, with a few different features to differentiate.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

*But Wait*........... the latest is that the Stanley Tool Company (who recently aquired the Black and Decker consortium) is itself going to be bought by the Won Hung Lo Electric Machinery Company in Shanghai. This chinese company has promissed not to manufacture products overseas and that each recognized B&D aquired brands will have their own livery color scheme, some model names may change.
Delta products will be blue with yellow racing stripes and the Shopmaster will become the Slopmaster. Brack and Deckrer's "Home" seriies will become the Hovel series and painted Chinese Red with 5 little gold stars. All manuals will be inserted in a Little Red Book and printed in Cantonese for clarity. Porter Cable will be known as PC (for Plenty Cute) and the dovetail tool will be known as the Swallow Tail Tool. PC colors will be pink with black dots on the handles. DeWalt tools will become De-Waah and will come in black and yellow 45 degree stripes.
A noticable improvement will be that machined surfaces will no longer be covered with a greasy protectorant, but will be covered with Duck Sauce which can be licked off surfaces. Also included with all tools is a fortune cookie that reveals whether you have purchased a lemon or not and also gives "lucky numbers" which you can use in the lottery and replace the lemon.

But look on the bright side. Sooner or later we will be a poor nation, have loads of jobless and cheap labor. So I guess the Chinese will then outsource the manufacturing to us and we can then make products of quality.


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## Bret (Oct 31, 2008)

Won Hung Lo. That's good. 

Just don't try licking duck sauce off your jointer blades. Could get ugly.


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## Dewi (Sep 5, 2009)

Blick & Docker have always made junk - although I only use run of the mill kit such as Makita or Bosch they do me ok


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## dbhost (Jul 20, 2009)

Dewi, you must be mighty young to post that. The B&D stuff my Dad had in the 1970s went to my brothers, who still use the stuff mercilessly. They went bad in the 1980s along with a whole slew of other American brands, and jobs.


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## SST (Nov 30, 2006)

Wow, this thread has been an eye opener for me. I didn't realize that this much crap was going on out in the tool trade. I'm really out of the loop because my power woodworking tools date back to the 1950's… all of them, save a couple of HF cheapie hand-size plug-in throwaways.

I guess that's why I've got to make a case for buying old tools & restoring them if necessary. They're simple, tough, easy to fix, and pretty much bullet-proof. The most I've had to do was put in a set of bearings & clean off some rust & I've got a machine that will probably go another 1/2 century.

Oh sure, they generally don't have all the fancy doodads of the imports (or the nifty colors) or the snob appeal of new stuff, but they'll produce a finished project that fits together just as well as the junk and here's the neat part…they're often cheaper than the new junk, and they will (even if they are currently 40 or 50 years old) outlast the new stuff.

There's a ton of good, inexpensive older used tools out in the world just waiting for guys like me who aren't hung up on having the newest, fanciest stuff on the block, but rather just want to build stuff.
There…that's my story & I'm stickin' to it -SST


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## RBWoodworker (Mar 22, 2009)

I'll add my two cents too..

one of the reason I buy some of the older American machines is because 1..I feel that they are much better build.. feels like a solid, heavy, unmovable..need a forklift to move.. piece of machine..yes.. finding parts can be a pain if they break down.. I have several older machines that just purr like a kitten when turned on and I bend over backwards to maintain them and keep them clean..1 example is the Oscillating sander I just bough.. the entire gear assembly is submerged in an oil encasement..meaning it will stay lubed forever.. not hanging out in the open getting all the dust and debris all over the gears to wear it out..

I learned very early on from my mentor who told me to buy the very best machine you can afford.. getting what you pay for is as true today as it was yesterday but today..there seems to be a lot of smoke and mirrors when it comes to machines and tools of today.. If you can find good, solid, older American machines.. don't look past them, but give them a try..you will be glad you did


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## dfarr (Jan 1, 2009)

I just got this via email today…..."Stanley To Pay $3.46 Billion For Black & Decker"

"Stanley's brands include its Stanley tools line and FatMax, Bostitch and Mac Tools, which are used on cars. In addition to its namesake line, Black & Decker owns DeWalt, Porter-Cable, Kwikset and Baldwin brands, popular with consumers and professionals."

http://www.manufacturing.net/article.aspx?id=225890


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Ain't deregulation for monopolies great?


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## RedShirt013 (May 17, 2008)

I personally don't think the tool companies are overdoing it. In just the recent years I've seen a lot of tools getting cheaper, both in quality and price. And that's not factornig inflation, so I consider that rather acceptable. Adding to our expection that machines should 1) Maintain price 2) Maintain high quality 3) Be made in America 4) Treat workers well (=wage increase) 5) Use high quality material (deapite commodity price boom) I sometimes cannot image us getting all of the above without tool companies making some tradeoffs. People still see good old american machines as the best, and that might be undeniable, but let's put that into perspective of what it cost back then, or how cheap it was because you bought it off ebay/craigslist. I'm just glad that we now have the options to buy cheap stuff if we can't afford it, while still be able to buy quality tools if you can spare the cash.


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## woodsmithshop (Sep 10, 2008)

without competition you get higher prices and lower quality


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## skywalker01 (May 19, 2009)

Stifle competition and the world will go into the dark ages #2. Now wouldn't that be nice.


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## Tim_456 (Jul 22, 2008)

Fellow LJ's,
this goes on in EVERY industry. Look at the auto industry. The reason Pontiac is being shut down is because there's little to no difference between the Chevy, Pontiac, and Buick versions of the same car so there's no money left in that brand. Why pay for a pontiac (in the day a "higher end vehicle") when you can get the same options for a cheaper price with a Chevy. Toyota does it, Honda does it and Ford does it. Don't be fooled by the badges, MOST of those Lexus vehicles are EXACTLY the same as their Toyota counterparts. Any industry where the product becomes a commodity has the potential for this to happen. Most these tools (and other products like it) are mature with little to no innovation left in them, so their production is outsourced to minimize cost and maximize dwindling profits. This is the other side of a free market system. Everyone wants things at the best price, companys are in business to make money so this leads to the situation you're seeing. The same exact product (BTW, you forget the Craftsman version of that jointer pictured above) being sold at different prices due to the brand name. Unfortunatly this happens all the time.

Oh, and remember that when you complain about things being made in China, remember that is a direct result of people demanding lower and lower prices. On these types of products that are mature, if you drive the price down, you need to send it somewhere cheap to make or it's just not worth making anymore.

I'm not saying to not demand lower prices, but there's always a trade off.


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## Rayv (Oct 16, 2009)

Most people seem to want everything for the lowest possible price. That's why WalMart has been so successful. For many, the price differece between a US-made tool and a cheap copy may determine whether or not they can buy the tool at all. For me, I've always bought the best quality I could afford (and justify to my wife) at the time. I have a 25 year old Delta light-duty shaper that I use 2-3 times per week. It is still in excellent shape and I will have it for the rest of my life. As Tim_456 said above, "there's always a trade off".


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## cowdog80 (Oct 14, 2009)

Is this surprising?

- Behlen
- Waterlox Inc.


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## dusty2 (Jan 4, 2009)

I would like to believe that I will always be able to buy a quality tool when I want to. In days gone by, if I wanted a quality router I would probably have gone looking for a PC. If I wanted a quality TS I would have gone looking for a Unisaw.

But today, since nearly all of the old reliables are manufactured in the same plant and simply painted and labeled differently, I don't know what to go shopping for. There is a chance that if I go looking for the more expensive tools, I just might get one of the better available BUT maybe not.

If I insist on Made in the USA, I really have a problem. Made in the USA used to be somewhat a guarantee of reliability. I no longer believe that is true. Too many of the tools that we think are made here are actually imported.

I do believe that there are quality tools that come from overseas but which ones are they. Yes, I could convert to Festool and probably feel comfortable that my tools will last at least until I don't need them anymore but I don't want to do that. I want to remain in support of US manufacturing.

Help me. Lead me to a manufacturer who will do that for me. Is there one?


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Although it can be said that manufacturing has moved offshore because of customers demanding low prices, it is more likely that the brand companies, want to make more profit without any consideration of the impact to the customer or indeed, the country. We have seen almost all our industries exported, the companies have become richer while the citizens and country suffer.
The US auto industry sufferings are the result of an arrogant philosophy they all had where basically they decided what you should buy based on profit margins rather than customer requirements. If they had been providing what the customer wanted then there would have been far less invasions by foreign manufacturers. It is strange that a small country (compared to US) like Germany has Mercedes, Volkswagen, Porche and Audi which are still going great guns. Their build standards are high and the product is well engineered and reliable for a very long life. They are more expensive than their American counterparts, so why do we want them? You can answer that yourself.
German or European tools are revered and desired by many, the price is higher, but the quality shines through and they will last a lifetime. Festool has become the most wanted brand on portable power tools for woodworking. So the argument that customers demand cheaper prices is not always true. Customers will pay for for *good* US made tools and have some confidence in them, so the brand names should realize that the products they have manufactured in the far east will just be cheap knock off's.
The time is right for a different way of thinking. We have enough unemployed talent, enough available factory space for a company to be formed to make quality tools and products here in the US. They could even use some of this stimulus money floating around to inject capital to start it up. Get Warren Buffet and Bill Gates interested and remind them that charity begins at home, get Martha to tell everyone "It's a good thing" and Oprah to push the idea in a shower of emotional tears, but leave Jerry Springer out of it.
Seriously if could buy a US made quality tool that would last me I would invest in it even if it did cost more, and I am sure there are many people out there that would do the same. Hence we have a market for quality.

How do we make our voices heard? Boycot is the answer.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

Pretty much everything I've read is true, and well said.

As somebody who-in part-managed international sourcing for a few different companies, though, I want to add one thing: the fact that so many items ARE made in "the same Chinese factory" is all but irrelevant.

If company A specifies better quality materials, and tighter QC tolerances, then they will usually receive it, at a higher COGS (Cost of Goods Sold).

If, on the other hand, company B specifies lesser quality materials, and looser QC tolerances, then they will usually receive that, at a lower cost.

In the bicycle world, for example, there are probably dozens of brands made at the same Asian factory, and the difference between the brands can be huge.

Same plant. Same basic processes. Different marching orders from the companies contracting the work.

As you were…..


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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

They seem to be different machines to me with different warranties too.

The cowlings are similar but the jointer specs are different.
Could be they outsource the cowlings from the same supplier?


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## TheDane (May 15, 2008)

*dbhost* is right, there was a time when Black & Decker was top-of-the-line stuff. I inherited a B&D hand drill from my Dad … he bought it the day before I was born (I have the receipt!). I had to replace the cord on it back in the 70's (my own carelessness), I have replaced the brushes a couple of times, and I change the grease in the gear reduction about every ten years. I have burned up several cheaper corded drills in the last 30 years, but Dad's old B&D is still going strong.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

I have a B&D "Profesional" series drill that is 25 years old and it is a great tool - built like a tank, but it seems that since B&D changed their tool color to red they have been rubbish - should have took it as a warning, Red is for danger or stay away!
When B&D bought PC and DeWalt the quality of those brands was maintained while desings and tooling existed in each plant to continue making current and the then next generation tools. However that time is passed and I can see all these "brand name" tools now being manufactured as cheaply as possible to a single basic design and follow the US auto industry by engaging in "badge engineering" where all products are the same under the hood but carry a different brand name and color scheme on the outside.
All this makes Grizzly a good choice as their tools are manufactured in ISO regulated factories.


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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

From a marketing perspective it would make good sense to build an entry level tool to plug the low end import hole and give your dealers something to compete with.
It doesn't take much savvy to figure out that you don't get much for less than $50.00 or $60.00.
There are still millions of folks out that that don't believe that.

Bob


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Bob#2
Back in to "good old days" when truth meant something and greed was shunned, manufacturing and prices work to a just formula. I spent some time in R&D of products, from concept to retail price.
The formula was 1:5, your retail price was 5 times the COGS. Say something sold for $5 and it cost $1 manufacting cost, then all the money in between took care of shipping, wholesalers and retailer's profit.
Today profit margins are just greedy wish lists.
A piece of cloth costing 25 cents and made into a shirt somewhere in the third world becomes a $30 shirt ON SALE? Similarly sneakers from the far east costing $3 to make sell for $150. 
We are all paying "way over the top" for almost everything because of greed. The problem is we are all brainwashed into going along with it all by advertising and marketing people. The only way to get prices down from overpricing is to BOYCOTT them, and hopefully they will get the message. Unfortunately there are not many people with enough balls to make this happen.
Don't you find it strange that the Chinese can manufacture products, made a good profit (just look at the was their economy is growing) asnd sell them to US comapnies REAL cheap, but when we buy these products the price is astronomical.


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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

Hi Roger:
I certainly do understand the principal behind marketing math.
Our group has generally used the 6:1 ratio for input costs vs suggested retail.








I first witnessed the "greed"/ deep discount mechanism at a carnival as a boy.
The barker would hold up a die cast horse with a clock in it's stomach and ask the crowd who would give him $10.00 for this $30.00 clock!
2 Schills and a dozen greedy people all held up $10.00 bills and the crown was driven to another round of sales with the next incredible discount.
Today nothing sells for retail prices except professional services that have a guild and fixed pricing.

Everything else is set up to be deceptive and I can only want to believe that the public must know this.

As long as people "borrow" their lifestyle" from banks etc the prices with reflect this indiscretion.

Cheers
Bob


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## TheDane (May 15, 2008)

FWIW … Black and Decker acquired DeWalt in 1960.


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## OutPutter (Jun 23, 2007)

I am shocked there is gambling going on in this place! Haven't you people ever been to the grocery store? Do you really think Kroger has 500 manufacturing plants that make every thing from bread and beans to taco shells and meat products? Generic products are mostly made by brand name manufacturers. You should also be aware that the dollar falls in value each time they spend another trillion dollars. The new products that cost more are the ones that came in since the last batch before the dollar fell again. The brand name may have something to do with it but not much.

I have one of those cheap Delta jointers and it does exactly what I thought it would given the price and size and etc. I don't remember the last time I had a tool that wore out or quit working. I'm not convinced the products we buy today like drills and saws will have any shorter a life span than the "tanks" we got when we were kids. The only reason the drill had a steel housing was they didn't have plastic injection molding yet. It wasn't used to make the tool last longer, it just made it heavier and more expensive to ship.

Anyway, I'm glad I can take advantage of cheap Chinese labor and get cheap tools, TVs, etc. That just leaves me more money and lets us have a higher standard of living. There is a serious lack of knowledge about basic economics in our society today and it makes us fall prey to viscious lies about quality, human rights, class warfare, profit motives, etc.

Sorry if any of this sounds offensive to anyone. I'm trying to pass a kidney stone.

Best,


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## CutGlueFinish (Oct 14, 2009)

I am shocked that this is news to anyone. Maybe I look at tools and stuf more closely than most. I noticed all this happening a long time ago. But it is not all as it appears.

If you buy a Jag , you do not have a Ford.

If you buy a DieHard battery at Sears, you have a battery made by Exide batteries.

If you buy a cheap battery at the local auto parts store, it may also have been made by Exide batteries.

Are they the same?

No.

If you ask Exide to make a battery for you, they will. If you give them the specs, they will make it the way you want it. Not everything is a clone with a different label.

Having said that, if you buy a B&D industrial cordless drill, and your friend buys a similar spec'ed DeWalt drill, you both have the same drill with different colors.

When I looked the cost was the same, but I like yellow better than grey for drills. ( I bought the DeWalt for the company tool box, I bought Rigid for my home use even when I was rebuilding houses. The mechanics at work are not as easy on tools as I am though.The Rigid works great and costs less and orange is also nice on a drill.)

I saw the above mentioned jointers side by side. I am unable to see the difference. I bought mine a few years back only because it was on clearance for 100USD. My circular saw cost more than that, so I thought what the hell, why not?

It is the Delta brand. It works great for small jobs and it is light enough to put on the truck and carry around. I was very pleased with the value of this tool at 100 dollars. 300 dollars? no.

I have seen lots of examples of this very thing over the years. Many times the case is the same and the outer shell is the same mold, but the motors and gears and drive mechanism is much better on the more expensive model. Some things you can't see, like bearings instead of bushings etc. But it makes a huge difference in use.

I would have to assume it is possible that this could be the case with these two jointers. I do not think it is the case, but I have not used the PC model nor have I taken them apart and compared parts.

The parts that can be seen are the same cast aluminum that are common to low end tools.

It still works though, for a certain use level. A cabinet shop would not get much out of these, but a hobbist would.

Not every tool needs to be cast iron and machined to within .001" to be usefull. It feels nice when they are, but then it costs more.

If all of us consumers would stop buying low end tools, they would stop making them. Remember they are responding to customer demand.

I used to buy only quality tools no matter what. I enjoy the feel and lower noise levels and quality of work possible when using good solid tools. Because of this I never bought a real jointer. Good ones are more expensive than I can justify. Now I factor in how often I plan to use a tool and how hard.

I am still reluctant to buy low end tools. It feels like a waste of money. If I am doing this once, I'll probably do it again. I take care of the tools I have so they stay around a long time. What ever you save on the purchase feels good for a week or so, but then you have to pay for that everytime you use the tool.

It is a difficult question when trying to decide which level to invest in.

Most hobbyist buy way more tool than they need. I have seen people start out with a 900 dollar table saw and sell it 3 years later at a yard sell with less than a weeks worth of use on it.If your starting out , buy a cheap tool, if you wear it out, replace it with a quality tool. You may never replace the second one.

The thing that bothers me is when I see a tool that is obviously priced above its value. The above jointer is a good example.

A nice jointer can be had for 600 to 700 dollars. I would never spend 300 on a cheap one.

If the PC is that much better , they should list why on the box…........"all ball bearing construction!..........solid steel gears!.......long life motors!......extra wide belt drive!".......something.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

There is a big mix out there too.
We do focus on China and rightly so…But can you really tell me that teh Grizzly 8 inch jointer is a POS but the Powermatic 8 inch is terrific?? - - which I know is made in taiwan now.

For Old tools, I would certainly not trade my Bessey T-square fence for the Delta fence of the 1950's if you paid me! From what we see there really is a difference between Porter Cable, and Harbour Freight.
What we often SPECIFY differently - actually comes in at the "Crappy Spec level". So although these companies (like exide) would be willing to make different specs - many in actuallity Don't.


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## CutGlueFinish (Oct 14, 2009)

Bob#2,

The price of a thing is determined by what people will pay for it. Not by what you ask for it.

If I have 10 people who want one of my 3 items I made, I need to raise the price until only 3 bidders are left.

We have just completed price discovery for this item at this time.

If I have 100 items and 10 people want one, I need to lower the price until I can get 100 bidders.

Price discovery.

If I can make more items at the new price , I continue. If not I stop. If 100 companies make the same low demand item, none will make much profit. SOme will stop. Same demand less supply prices will creep up. When the price is too high, more companies will make items until the price goes down.

If it costs me 25 dollars to make, but the consumer will not pay over 10 , I stop. I find a place in China that will make it for 3, I am now an importer.

If the workers at my plant will not work for less than 25 dollars an hour, but they all shop at X-mart and want everything for 3 dollars, why do they complain when their manufacturing job goes to China?

We used to have American made high quality textiles for sale in the stores.

All the textile workers and everyone else went to X-mart and bought the super cheap clothing. They were wearing this cheap clothing the day the mill closed and never reopened. And they all cried and lammented the loss of their jobs while wiping away tears on a shirt sleeve made in China.

The jobs go where the lowest cost is.

Only legislation will resist this. Tariffs are in place to stop Russian steel from flooding the market. The tariffs on textiles were dropped in NAFTA. Why ? Because politicians are influenced by big Unions at the steel companies and no one cares about textiles.

Next time you buy something, ask youself, "Where is my money about to go?" If the answer out of the country, then that's where you are sending the jobs.

Without a strong manufacturing base, all the service industry in the world wont save you unless your in some exotic tourist location.
That's what we are doing in the USA, shifting to a sevice based economy. Who do we think we will be servicing? Everyone who used to make stuf will be out of work.

Now that so many are un employed, the price of everything will slowly drop until companies can sell stuf to broke people.

When demand is strong enough they will hire a couple more people. Those people will go buy new shoes and use more gas to get to work and buy food for lunch. All this will eventualy cause demand to increase and more people will be needed and the cycle feeds on itself. Then the un employment level gets too low and you have to hire people who other wise would never get a job. Everyone has a job and a paycheck. Everyone has to spend said paycheck. Most want to spend future paychecks. Demand is increased beyond sustainable levels. More peopel are hired. Good people want more money. Prices go up to cover costs. New price levels are discovered.

Once they get you used to paying 3 dollars for gas, 2 doesn't look so high anymore.

Shoes used to be 20 dollars a pair. Now not even on sale for twice that.

Workers made less then too, so its all just numbers.

My grandfather went to the movies on a date and bought her snacks and a drink. He left home with one quarter and returned with change. There were no pennies on the ground for long back then.

I went to the movies and spent 30 dollars for 2 people.

I took my kids last week and it cost 100 dollars. (6 people total)

What should anything costs?

What ever the consumer will pay for it.

Then you decide if it is worth making or if you can cut it down to what they want to pay.


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## CutGlueFinish (Oct 14, 2009)

If we all paid cash for everyting, there would be exactly the right amount of goods made to cover demand.

This would continue and slowly increase with population. Each new worker would create more and increase demand at the same time.

The credit train has to make stops to refuel with cash.

Big circles, little circles.


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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

I disagree with you Cutgluefinish.
You have greatly oversimplified and exaggerated the realties to make your points.
Some examples would be in order don't you think?

Bob


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## johnnymo (Aug 15, 2009)

GREAT! Then where can I find a decent american made product then?


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Johnnymo
In a museum of course.


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## mynoblebear (Nov 22, 2009)

If they did not waste so much money on marketing the same thing under several names they could lower the price for the piece of junk and sell more of them.


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## OutPutter (Jun 23, 2007)

I've been reading my Fine Woodworking archive that goes back to the winter of 1975. I was shocked I tell you to see that people were complaining back then that "they don't make tools like they used to". No kidding. The people that used the tools everyone is so nostalgic for thought they were junk.

That tells me that quality control back then was as big an issue as it is today. It tells me that people that get a bad product complain the loudest, then and now. It tells me how important customer service is so that when a bad product slips by, the customer is left with nothing to complain about.

I sure wish someone would do a tool review that compares today's table saws with table saws from 1980. Or a comparison of shop planers or jointers. Here's one - let's compare power drills from 1980 with today's LiIon cordless drills. Hehe.

Stirring, stirring,


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## CyberDyneSystems (May 29, 2012)

Though the B&D take over of Porter Cable and Delta and the merger with Stanley is a little more recent,. B&D has been multimarketing tools for decades.

In the late 1980's / early 1990's for instance, certain power drills could be had under 5 different names, even though they were all five the exact same tool.

Black & Decker's "Professional" and "Industrial" lines were in fact top notch power tools of their day.

For example, the "B&D PROFESSIONAL" model 5068-04 5.0 amp 3/8ths power drill could also be had with a B&D Industiral, ELU, Craftsman, and later in the early 1990's under the DeWalt name tag. (previously DeWalt was really only to be found on radial Arm Saws)

In fact, even with all the existing market saturation, it was not until they introduced what was the exact same tool lines of the "Pro" and "Industrial" replicated under the DeWalt name that most people became aware of the diversity and quality of the power tools B&D offered. Making the plastic yellow instead of gray, and the DeWalt name as opposed to the B&D name often associated with cheesy red hobbiest tools, made B&D tools (under the DeWalt name) the highest sellers.

Never heard of B&D Professional/Industrial/ or ELU, well if you owned a DeWalt power or cordless tool in the early 1990's, then you've owned them, as for the first many years, there was NO DeWalt tool that was not a simple yellow copy of one of the existing B&D tools (excluding the R.A.Saws)

Even after the DeWalt tool line was introduced, for some years the Professional / Industrial and ELU lines coexisted, being found usually in special sales catalogs like Grainger. The same tool with DeWalt tag being sold in more retail outlets.

Eventually though, the Pro, Indy, and ELU marketing lines were dropped, leaving only the DeWalt and Craftsman name.
(FYI, only some Craftsman tools are B&D, but the Sears B&D relationship is a long one)

Well that was the 1980's and 1990's, now we are watching similar rearrangements on a larger scale.
Sadly, this time the rearrangements have had more impact on the final product.
The once amazing Porter Cable tool line is a sad parody, being the cheesy baby brother to the more hefty DeWalt tools,.


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## CyberDyneSystems (May 29, 2012)

"I've been reading my Fine Woodworking archive that goes back to the winter of 1975"

This too was a sad period for tools. ie: we've been here before

remember, some of the best tool manufactures were bought up in the 60's,. Delta and Porter Cable by Rockwell International, The original DeWalt RAS by B&D…

In both cases, the same tools with different logos sometimes suffered from newly acquired QC issues,. (espeicially DeWalt Radial Arm saws, which were essentially destroyed by Black and Deckers cost cutting)

Rockwell introduced it's infamous green line of tools, under both PC and Rockwell names, that were down right dangerous and had a terrible shelf life, even while at the same time they continued to sell rock solid PC tools like the Speedmatic 528 or 315 circular saws, 505 and 303 sanders, the renowned "Railroad" belt sanders 500, 503 and 504, etc.. All of these were the best available and many for decades had lifespans from the 40's through the mid 2000's

PC and Delta got great again in the late 70's early 80's when they split from Rockwell.

Sadly, all the GOOD tools that PC made for decades are now discontinued.


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## cjwillie (Sep 6, 2011)

All the more reason to find and restore old tools!!!


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## CyberDyneSystems (May 29, 2012)

By the way, in the 1950's Porter Cable was selling hand held circular saws with prices ranging around $150.00-$300.00

In 1950!

This is like paying a grand for a circular saw today.
There was a time when people would buy a tool for life (or decades anyways)

We have become a land of people that buy thinking it will last a few months or years.


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## CyberDyneSystems (May 29, 2012)

"All the more reason to find and restore old tools!!!"

Hell Yeah!

My Circular saw of choice is a 1950's PC 528!

Used with a good straight edge, it'll trounce any of these festool saws for panel/cabinet work!


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