# Another Word on Criticism



## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

When I was in kindergarten, the old nun who was the school principal came walking through the classroom one morning, checking out the pictures everyone was busy coloring with their crayons. I heard heard her issuing the usual compliments to other kids about how pretty their drawings were. I happened to be the youngest child in class, and somewhat behind the curve in terms of motor skill development. My coloring was poor, ragged, outside the lines, and I knew it.

When she finally approached my desk, she looked down at my scribbling, made a face, and said "Oh… that's ugly." I promptly wadded it up into a ball, and let Sister Agnes have it right in the chest. She didn't react well. I was sent to the office, and my mother was called to come pick me up and bring me home for the rest of the day. The year was 1963, and I suspect I was the first four-year-old (and maybe the last) ever suspended from kindergarten for delinquent behavior.

To the folks who dislike "attaboy" comments, I hope this serves to give some perspective on why I make them. If someone posts a project that obviously leaves a lot of room for improvement, I assume one of two things is true: Either they are so out of touch with reality that nothing I say is going to make a difference, or, more likely, they know their project has some rough edges, but they are simply doing the best they can for now. If they spend any time at all looking at the projects on this site, they will see what they want to create, try to imitate, and get better by practicing, reading, and asking questions. Me pointing out that their miters have gaps is probably just going to make them feel like that old nun made me feel.

On the other hand, if someone posts a project that is quite skilfully built, but has some design elements I don't particularly care for, how am I helping that person by disagreeing with his or her own artistic vision?

I know there are some good arguments to be made for critiquing each other's work. I continue to encourage everyone to offer criticism on my projects as they see fit. I promise…. I've gotten over Sister Agnes.  But I do think that knowing when, where, and how to offer critique on this site is one of those many things in life that are easier said than done.


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## Eric_S (Aug 26, 2009)

It reminds me of Billy Madison.

Billy Madison: Well, I made the duck blue because I'd never seen a blue duck before and I wanted to see one. 
Miss Lippy: Well, I think it's an excellent blue duck. Congratulations Billy, you just passed the first grade.


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## TheDane (May 15, 2008)

Charlie-I agree whole-heartedly. Well said!


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## patron (Apr 2, 2009)

well said , charlie

we all have a different path
regardless of how parallel they may seem

to each his own

and a kind word 
goes a long way


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## PurpLev (May 30, 2008)

I agree, and come to the conclusion, that unless I am familiar with the poster, and he/she with me, and we are comfortable critiquing one another - I simply will not comment on such projects - unless they implicitly ask for it


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Well said Charlie. I hope the sister recovered from her wound, yoiu didn't say. )


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## ellen35 (Jan 1, 2009)

Well said, Charlie… I think I had Sister Agnes too… but I was too scared to take her on!
Why be nasty… there is always something to like about a project, if nothing else, the fact that someone wanted to share it with some 20,000 other woodworkers!


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

Well said, Charlie.

The only things that you'd really have to know, in order to give constructive criticism, and have it be well received are:

- everything about the personality of the person whose project it was, 
- what kind of mood they're in on the given moment that you might offer up constructive criticism, and
- how to word constructive criticism in such a way as to preclude even the possibility of it being taken wrong.

There. Now how hard can THAT be ;-)

Incidentally, I live a few miles from Sister Agnes, these days. She STILL has a bruise, there. Ever thought about major league ball ? I bet you throw a MEAN fastball


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## BrandonW (Apr 27, 2010)

I was going to say, "Well said, Charlie" but five people already beat me to it! So instead, thumbs up to you.


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## lilredweldingrod (Nov 23, 2009)

Hear, Hear, Charlie,
Like our parents told us as youngsters, "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything." 
I'm just getting started in woodworking and I have a long road ahead of me to even approach the talent I see here. And even I can see the difference in true talent and ability, and kindergarten level talent and ability.(me being in the latter). Even an atta boy here and there is encouragement for us newbies to try harder. 
The members I appreciate the most, are the approachable ones that are willing to offer gentle critiques and encouragement. 
We all make mistakes everyday. And we know it. We don't need to have it hammered in over and over. It is much more upbuilding to have guidance to improve our abilities and knowledge of woodworking. 
The first to correct me on another forum was a true gentleman, knotscott. I followed him here and have not left. I have found many gentlemen and gentle-ladies here that are fantastic mentors, critics and teachers.
Charlie, your help and suggestions on my little project were invaluable, and I thank you. I could run several pages just listing the names of other friends I have made here.
It is as the Bible says, "A gentle word turns away wrath." Thank you senior woodworkers for your gentle words. Please know that I appreciate you and your leadership eminently. Thank you, Rand


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

And just to reiterate, I do understand that most of those who advocate critique are talking about giving it in a gentle and friendly manner.


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## Chipncut (Aug 18, 2006)

*That was a nice story Charlie!*

It feels good when you confess. You should sleep well tonight. LOL


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## DaddyZ (Jan 28, 2010)

Well Said, Can't we all just get along!!!


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## swirt (Apr 6, 2010)

Sister Agnes, wearing her cardboard flack jacket to protect her from flung paper, just smiled and mumbled to the person next to her that "Charles turned out to be a good kid after all."


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## PBthecat (Jan 18, 2010)

I like your projects but I bet the drawings are real ugly…


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## Rick Dennington (Aug 27, 2009)

Charlie,
You just need to eat some more hot crawfish, taters, and corn on the cob…..
That good Cajun food will help you get over your nightmares from the past…...lol.
I could eat some of that right now, or a plate of good Mexican food….. I love both….with a big glass of tea..


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

Oh, Charlie, so you were a hard case in school just like me, Haagh!  That was soooooooooooo many years ago but I still remember. 

Here's my take on the criticism thing.

There are all kinds of people here on Lumberjocks and they come from all kinds of places, have different races, religions, creeds, customs, belong to different organizations, differ politically, have different educational backgrounds, and on, and on, and on. Many of the ones from different countries do not speak English well. We have all sorts of age groups from youngsters all the way through elderly seniors, maybe even some who are handy capped in certain ways. Because of many of these things someone can misinterpret something that you say and can take offense easily. When you are being critical the language that you are using has a more negative tone than if you were giving them a positive word of praise. Why not just give the word of praise in most cases.

Here's another point. Do we have any idea how many skill levels are on Lumberjocks? We know that we have absolute beginners all the way up to people that build magnificent furniture and art like Dilos. So we have many different skill levels. What this means is that somebody may be at a certain level and are really good when compared to the people in that group but their projects may not look at all good when they are compared with a group that is at a higher level. So say someone is at a lower level and has really worked hard and struggled on a project and builds a project and it is the best that they ever did; but it is still in their level and not as good as some of the higher skill levels. Do we pull out the criticism or do we pull out the praise? Which will encourage them more? We can't possibly know what skill level everybody here operates at. At a woodworking festival or club they may perhaps have different skill groups to handle these sorts of things when judging people's displayed works. I say that it is better to praise than to criticize because of these things.

Finally, when you are talking to someone in person and are criticizing them you can look them in the eyes and have a smile and a kind encouraging expression on your face. You can put your hand on their shoulder or their back as you're talking to them in a kind way or hold their hand while you are criticizing them. You can place certain tones in the sound of your voice that makes them understand that your criticism is being done in a kind way so that they can improve. You can do none of these things on an internet site when you are criticizing someone. All someone sees is a bunch of printed words. Some people are skilled at words and some are not. Some people can try to convey some of these things in their printed words. Many others simply do not have the skill to do this type thing with words. Furthermore, when you criticize someone on a site like this then by it's very nature it is a public criticism whereas when you criticize in person it is often private and between the two of you. I say that it is better to praise than to criticize because of these things.


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## Dennisgrosen (Nov 14, 2009)

Charlie maybee you have right in your story and thanks for sharing

but I think even some bad critic or helpfull and ofcourse the kind applouse on the shuolder is something everyone can understand and take it as they want
but the worst kind of critic I ever had seen in my life

was in a 2 grade class that have some kind of an artthingclass or what ever the name in english is

a very skilled artist had been asked to come and make coments on what the different gruops
make , they were 3-4 in every gruop and the only coment i make every single time he had looked
at a thing was " hmmm--hmmm--hmmm" and then he walked a way from the classroom
you shuold have seen those faces on the children developing the next few hours

it did take the art teacher , parrents and the other teachers over two month to get the childrens 
willingness /be able to to learn new things and believing that they cuold learn and express them self
both thrugh word/math and by hand back in there heads and not feeling unsecure

those five minuts of hmmm totely destroyed a hole class and over 1½ years of teachers work

take care
Dennis


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## Bluebear (Jun 21, 2010)

here here charlie!! well put my friend!
i always welcome critique as well.. and ironic that i find criticism difficult to give because i'm not one to judge… but how can i expect criticism of my work if i dont give any?
hmmmm… you've stumbled on a philosophical question i'll leave to someone else to figure out, hahah.


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## mafe (Dec 10, 2009)

I agree, and I do not understand why people are so afraid of getting critics, I think it's wonderful with critics.
I have learned that it is important to say 'I think you dovetails are not closed enough, but they are fine for a first try', instead of saying 'your dovetails stinks', that makes life better and the receiver open for the critics, even perhaps we mean the same.
When it comes to kinder garden, I was send to the headmasters office also, do not remember if my parents was involved. It was this wonderful girl Lene, she had two favorite boys, and I was one of them, so of course we competed a lot. and one day Lene said 'ok, I'll choose one of you, if you stand up on the bench and show me your penis', and even I have never been competitive by nature, this I could not resist, to become the boyfriend of Lene if only! Wauu. So we stood up there on the bench and pulled down our panties in front of her and she was really happy for the view. But then we heard a scream, and as you know it's not easy to run with the pants down, so we just stood there in a coma while Lene ran away. The scream came from the nun (mother something it was a catholic kinder garden), and she was not at all as Lene for what she could see, so we were both send to the gym, to sit there and be ashamed of our self's. The worst part is that I remember this, but I don't remember if Lene ever choose a boyfriend!
So perhaps your story taught you not to show your drawings, and to give an honest critic. But I learned nothing, I kept showing my….. to my girlfriends, and I became an Architect!
Best of thoughts,
Mads


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## mafe (Dec 10, 2009)

Ohhh yes, I learned to draw!


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Mads, you topped my story by a mile. LOL!

What I wrote was not meant to tell anyone else what they should do as far as critiquing posted projects. I truly believe in everyone's right to decide that for themselves, and comment as they see fit.

My point was really to explain why I personally believe in giving encouraging remarks, and don't usually offer criticism unless specifically asked for by the poster.


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## Manitario (Jul 4, 2010)

well said Charlie. I know that my projects don't compare with the majority of the others posted here; I know very well that my work needs improvement, but I appreciate the encouragement; my own desire to better my work will drive me to do better work, not the comments of others.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Jorge, I very much appreciate the spirit of what you are saying. In theory, at least, I agree with you.


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## Cher (Dec 6, 2009)

*Hi Charlie*, thank you for the story, I wish you had kicked her on the shin instead. I started school in the convent as a border, I had a Sister Bernadette in grade 1 and 2 and the old bitch wasn't shy with the dell stick. 
It is hurtful to criticise some one's work, if they were brave enough to show it here, they deserve encouragement and a kind word.

Thank you for the post Charlie, you are a fine gentleman.

*Mafe* your story is hilarious


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## woodspark (May 8, 2010)

Charlie, you have a very good memory! Then, I guess it had such an impact on you that it got burned into your brain!

You spoke well sir. "Encouraging remarks" is what this is all about in my opinion.


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## mafe (Dec 10, 2009)

And just for the record:
Charlie - I think you made a fine post and I really think you should go on posting!
I love your words always,
Mads


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## jusfine (May 22, 2010)

Charlie and Mafe, you made my day. I laughed out loud when reading your stories… 

Only had one experience with a nun, she taught French language in our school. Couldn't understand her, and couldn't figure out why we had to learn French when I didn't know anybody who spoke or understood it.

Lots of criticism from her is all I remember.

Had to take four years of it in elementary, don't remember any of it.

I figure out more French words from the writing on the peanut butter jars…


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## mmh (Mar 17, 2008)

A heartful story and good advice. Although I am one who is guilty of giving a crtique, maybe more often than desired, I do try to not offend the creator by adding my 2 cents. I feel that a little guidance to a superior design will help them grow in their creativity and not just accept a finished project as something that can not be rethought. Not to say the end product is not good, but one can always consider other options. As, isn't this part of the creative process, to keep on creating with new ideas and insight?

I do appreciate the need to be subtle and courteous in this approach as it's not easy to be told that your "masterpiece" is not quite 100% perfect. Sometimes a Personal Message (PM) to the creator is the best way to suggest options you feel you wish to share, as this will not embarras them (or you) of the comments that all can read.

If I have given any hurtful comments, I do appologize and if you wish to give my work a critique, well, that is fine, and encouraged, as I would rather have to swallow my pride and take some advice or suggestions than to be patted on the head and given only praise when my work is not worthy of said praise. Chances are I would agree with the comment and maybe I haven't thought of it myself, so the news would indeed be enlightening.

If you can't improve on your work and ideas, then you may as well just roll over and die. But meanwhile I for one intend on continuing my march of creativity and improving my work.


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## JoeCool (Jan 2, 2009)

Wow, I really enjoyed reading your comment. Thanks Charlie.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

I wanna' add one more thing …..

For those who haven't figured it out, yet … MUCH of (the very little that) I know about woodworking … I've LEARNED from y'all-often in response to things I've done "wrong" IN my posted projects.

I'm very grateful for that, and would be grateful for that sort of constructive criticism, in the future, too !

There's an old saying:

"A wise man can learn from a fool, but a fool cannot learn from a wise man."

I love to learn, and … as I get older … realize just how darned much I have TO learn !

I'm very grateful for those who have been so generous with their knowledge, help, and constructive feedback.


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## degoose (Mar 20, 2009)

Well I am now starting my day off a little differently than usual , that is for sure…


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## KentS (May 27, 2009)

Unfortunatley, since I was the perfect child in kindergarten and never had to be reprimanded, I have no amazing, touching stories to share, but thanks mafe and Charlie!

Charlie, We should expect someone as *old* as you to also be wise LOL, but you constantly amaze me with your wisdom and the level headed way you approah things here on lumberjocks. I for one have seen so often how you diffuse potential negative situations with humor, as well as rational comments. Therefore, anytime you comment, I take it more seriously than some others. I thank you for the times you have calmed me down.

I too choose to not criticise, unless it is asked for. Then, I will certainly give my professional (but not necessarily right opinion on a project or method). If not for criticism, I would not be at the level I am today, but the only ones I tended to listen to were those who earned that right. I take offense when someone I barely know begins to slam my work just because they would have done it different, whether style or methods.

I receive PM's, frquently asking me certain questions about how to do something. I enjoy answering those because the situation is more private, therefore less threatening. If I were a total amatuer who did something really subpar or stupid on a project, I might be embarrased to be ripped apart by a pro for not doing it *right*. On the other hand, the same one might be comfortable one on one receiveing the crtique. Early in my career, I worked next door to a fine craftsman who started out severly citicising my work. As I learned he was really trying to help, I finally began to accept it and then spent years seeking his advice.

All that said, there is cetainly a place to offer advice, and yes, even "critisim". Simply respect the poster, and think long and hard about *how *you say it. Bottom line, there is no right or wrong answer to this subject, except maybe consideration and respect to others, no matter which camp you tend to be in.


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## Karson (May 9, 2006)

Charlie: It sounds like you've grown up a little over the years. You've also become very bright in your comments and concerns.

I appreciate your truthfullness in which every way it is bent.


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## LateNightOwl (Aug 13, 2009)

Good story, Charlie. Thanks for putting it out there and sharing your respectful and encouraging style. It makes you welcome everywhere. 

I don't see a need to be cruel or rude. EVER. It is especially uncalled for when someone is doing their best with what they have. I don't understand why it is so difficult for some folks to extend a respectful and encouraging attitude in ALL areas of the LJ site. It is a shame to see the grudges, attacks, intolerance, name calling, and general ugliness that is being thrown around in some of the postings lately.

OTOH, I've gotten some great constructive criticism on my projects and a lot of help from my forum questions that have encouraged me and offered ways to improve my woodworking skills. I, like many others have learned so much through LJ-style kind tutoring. *This* is what makes this the best woodworking site around.


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## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

I'm blocking everyone including myself!


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## lew (Feb 13, 2008)

Wow, Charlie and Mafe- if you guys were in school today- Charlie you would have been locked up for assault and Mafe would have to register as a sex offender! Ohh, how I long for the good old days when kids could be kids.

Anyway, Charlie, positive remarks, along with helpful suggestions are the best teaching tools. THanks for posting this.

Lew


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## Kindlingmaker (Sep 29, 2008)

Sometimes its hard to try and do something one has never done before. It's even harder to try again after failure but those that try and try again have already mastered the hardest part of a project, "trying". I congratulate those that try no matter the outcome!


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Sorry Charlie but not everyone can be Chicken of the Sea.

While I, like everyone else, enjoys a well earned ata' boy, I HATE honey dipped mutual ma_(gratification) that lacks sincerity/depth and/or knowledge/understanding of what was attempted and/or accomplished. I personally enter into hobbies with the intent of "learning" something and find shallow ata' boys often shine through for what they are in that they do little to motivate OR teach anything new. I have often left or migrated away from groups that degraded into these back slapping parties where NO real information is shared and "actually learning something" becomes a lost art form.

That being said, I personally crave a critique that comments on a specific technique, methodology, or choice that was made, regardless of the hobby/pursuit. IMO, such a critique sharpens the mind by exposing one to alternatives in processes as well as choices made. But then again, that is just my opinion…

"mmh"'s suggestions seem appropriate for many cases but I would limit the use of PMs to the worst of the worst instances. But even then one should ask if the posted project was specifically an exercise in developing new skills, etc. I would rather be honest and apologize later than be dishonest and full of shinola (if you know what I mean).


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## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

Atta boy Mike!

.
.
( just a dose of honey dipped bullsh*t for you)


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

*While I, like everyone else, enjoys a well earned ata' boy, I HATE honey dipped mutual ma(gratification) that lacks sincerity/depth and/or knowledge/understanding of what was attempted and/or accomplished*_

Well…. it all depends on the partner, Mike.


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## twokidsnosleep (Apr 5, 2010)

I spend more time on this site because of the excellent demonstration of skills presented here and the positive feedback that I read to most postings…very few negatives with LJ'ers; haven't seen a knock down drag out internet fight on here.
I have spent far less time in the last 6 months on my 'professional' site b/c of the attacking, clique driven and negative environment it contains….it is an argument a minute there. 
Unfortunately it is so much easier to be negative and give criticism than encouragement..human nature and a part of my personality I want to change, especially to my kids. 
Charlie, it wasn't a nun, but my experience was in grade two and it was a comment to the rest of the class on how my hand writing looked like 'chicken scratch'. Those negatives set into one's psyche really deeply unfortunately and make you feel dumb for a long time.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

*ATTABOY* Charlie )))))


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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

There are basically two kinds of posters:
One broad group enjoys sharing a project with others and accepts critique as part of the process.
The other group for what ever reason is "Trolling for Compliments" 
Their work can range from near perfection to bite your tongue stuff.

Unless specifically asked I refrain from critiquing and only then if I feel I have something positive to offer.
I take no joy in making either group unhappy.


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## donbee (Feb 7, 2009)

In my experience as a teacher, I have tried to implement this rule.
When someone NEEDS advice about something that isn't quite good enough, and when I know the student can do better (the second part is essential), first find the good parts to compliment, then, gently and helpfully, give the instruction on improving.
The reason is this. The student will not listen if he is given the impression that there's nothing good about the work. There would HAVE to be something good!
"Charles, I like the way you hold your crayon", might be a good start, and then, perhaps, "Here's an idea, Charles. Don't you think this apple would look better if the red color was all inside the lines?" 
Criticism is SUPPOSED to help one see where improvement can be made, not to make a person feel bad about it.
So, if I give advice for improvement, I try to remember about complimenting the work first.
"My! That's nice wood you used for this - er - um, - - what do you call it, Charles?" 
DDWWB


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## Berg (Aug 31, 2009)

Bah! That Charlie still can't color worth a dang! Hold out your hand!
Signed 
Sister Agnes


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Don, you sound like a great teacher. I've always enjoyed your comments on the site.

Berg, I still can't color and my penmanship is even worse!


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

A well earned ata' boy for Bob #2 for definitively identifying the difference between trolls and troopers! How true!

And another ata' boy to Don for speaking the PC methodology of classroom education/motivation. I also have used and promoted his method for many years in the field. Very useful in situations where the student/teacher relationship is well defined and accepted by both parties. Not so useful though, between the Abbott and Costello types where antagonism is the norm. In those cases you, the teacher, needs the skill in offering either Abbott or Costello a can of altered shinola in such a way as to have them profusely thanking you for "such a nice gift". While every child can learn, not every adult chooses to. And to those adults, shinola works as well as anything I know.


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## RandyMarine (Mar 5, 2009)

Charlie,
Very well put. I myself am one that knows when I post something that it has room for improvement…usually lots of room…However, never have been taught woodworking, and doing everything from a book or online…I may have overlooked something or worse yet…had no clue to begin with.

That is why I always am willing to except critque. However, I think delivery is the most important part of the comments…My father once told me you could someone to eat a $h!t Sandwich if it is presented properly.


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## nmkidd (Sep 18, 2009)

i agree with you Charlie….....i am a strong advocate of constructive criticism…..........however…........tact and diplomacy are the key words in offering a critique….......be it good or bad!


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## TimSelf (Sep 20, 2010)

I agree completely Don. If we start out with negative, the defense shield goes up and nothing is heard.

IMO, if you are pressure sensative, annotate you do not desire a critique. I believe the majority of us have room for improvement. Some of us have an overwhelming desire to point out some design flaw which would improve the work.


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## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

Atta boy Mike!
.
.
.
( just another dose of honey dipped bullsh*t for you)
.
.
.
LOL! You need to learn the difference between antagonism and friendly humor. LOL, don't take such unimportant things so seriously.


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## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

I have yet to see any rude criticism of someone's work on LJ. I have seen a couple of folks arguing about this or that concerning some work…one or the other had posted. But I have never taken any of what I have seen to seriously. I mean geez, it's an Internet forum…who really cares what somebody who doesn't have a clue as to the where or the why a guy built something the way he did worry about anything somebody would say here. Unless the person with the job/project found the comments useful, if not ignore it and figure the guy is just another jackass you have met along the way. I think some folks take this website and themselves way to seriously. This is a good place to learn and have a few laughs… other then that IMO don't sweat it, it's just the Internet and has it no bearing at all on your life unless you let it. It's not like the guy making an unappreciated comment here has any bearing at all on your happiness in the shop or what profit you are trying to make on a job.


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## BroDave (Dec 16, 2007)

"To the folks who dislike "attaboy" comments, I hope this serves to give some perspective on why I make them. If someone posts a project that obviously leaves a lot of room for improvement, I assume one of two things is true: Either they are so out of touch with reality that nothing I say is going to make a difference, or, more likely, they know their project has some rough edges, but they are simply doing the best they can for now. If they spend any time at all looking at the projects on this site, they will see what they want to create, try to imitate, and get better by practicing, reading, and asking questions. Me pointing out that their miters have gaps is probably just going to make them feel like that old nun made me feel."

What a load of made up horse ********************e Charlie.
If it isn't good, then it isn't good.

If you want to encourage newbies that is fine, in fact it is a good thing, but to tell them their latest coaster is "great" when it is nothing more than a coaster is a dis-service to them.

Either man up and tell the truth, keep your opinion to yourself or post a "I hope you feel good, here is your reward for playing " disclaimer" with your "opinion"


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

For the record, BroDave, I don't believe in telling people their crappy project is great. I just try to find something positive to say, even if that means something like… "That sure is a pretty piece of walnut you used for that box."


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## CampD (Nov 8, 2008)

Or how about this, Charlie
"Thats a pretty good way to ruin a perfectly good piece of walnut" 
of course I could go on, but then you all would think I'm serious ;p


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## manilaboy (Aug 17, 2007)

There is a very very fine line between constructive criticism and ridicule. It all depends on how you word, time and deliver the critique. There might be sincerity in pointing out the flaws but the negativity sometimes overpowers it and the author feels mowed down.

On the other hand, if you post your project on here, be ready for whatever comes your way. This is the internet. Everybody and his brother can say what they want, when they want and how they want it said. Well meaning or not. There are people who are waiting for such an oppurtunity to mow you down and relish it. And they will.

Rico


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## Gofor (Jan 12, 2008)

So now your criticizing the tact-fully impaired,Huh!? Next you'll be wanting to outlaw objectivity! I Protest!!

LOL

My point is that no matter what you say or how you say it, someone will find a reason to take offense. The internet spans the world. The world has many different cultures, and the people have many different personalities and senses of humor. There are bullies, nice-guys, leaders, followers, have-nots and haves. All view what you say differently. Those that ask "why can't we all just get along" are ignoring the fact that all humans are not the same and have different needs and ambitions. As long as we are "human" we can't and never will. If we evolve into something different, we may. Hasn't happened yet with any species of life on earth yet, (to the best of mankind's knowledge) but I am not going to rule out the possibility.

Be yourself. Others will judge you by what you post. Some will like you, some will take offense, some will lobby others to change your ways. If you care, you will act accordingly. If you don't, you will ignore them.

But, I don't think the recent proliferation of threads on how nice we "need" to be will change the status quo on this or any other forum

Just my opinion

Go

PS. The nun that broke the ruler over my knuckles only achieved making a young man question a religion that preached peace but practiced violence.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Go, I totally agree with your comments. Everyone should post what they want to post. "Attaboy" if you want, critique if you want, make jokes if you want.

I started this post to explain my own personal philosophy… definitely not to tell others how they should post. In fact, I was motivated to write this because I felt like other people were trying to tell me how to post by criticizing encouraging comments that, in their view, add nothing to the site.


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## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

*I felt like other people were trying to tell me how to post by criticizing encouraging comments that, in their view, add nothing to the site.*

-------------------

Yeah, the usual…Forum Police they can be found at every Forum on the Net. There are also usually a few Forum Nazi's tossed in as self-appointed moderators who use rat-pack tactics with their friends to try and force their will upon others. All in all I think everyone here would pretty much agree that Lumberjocks is mild compared to most other Forums, we have a good bunch of people here 

Now can we please get back to the complaining and bickering!  

And damn it Charlie stop trying to make sense!


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## rivergirl (Aug 18, 2010)

Charlie it is very true that all people can have their tender spirits broken by harsh comments (sometimes unintentional- sometimes intentional) and this is particularly true of children. It is sad that very often our most memorable experiences are of the most painful occurances. Mads- I am still laughing about your show and tell incident. I am surprised that the nun sent you BOTH to the gym- TOGETHER.. LOL and I am thinking that your show and tell methods did not have the same (blood curdling scream) affect on Caroline. LOL 
funny that what was once considered simple childhood curiositiy is now called lewd and lecivious behavior and would get a kindergartner sent to counseling and maybe even a detention center for deviant nonviolent juvenile offenders. LOLOLOL When my Len was in early elementary school- the nun took a (newfangled) bic pen from a student who was enamored with it and STABBED HIM IN THE TOP OF THE HEAD with it. Blood spurted out and covered the face of the student and the clothes of all within reach. The mother of the boy who had been pieced with the bic pen was so angry about the incident that she walked to the school, and punched the nun right in the mouth sending her reeling and she collapsed on the floor in the classroom. The boy grew up to become a public school principal- retired after 30+ years and then became principal of a catholic school where he is still employed.  When you hear this guy tell the story about the nun and the bic pen it makes you cry with laughter.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Stabbed in the head by a nun, who later gets punched out by the kid's mother. And they say there is too much violence in *public* schools? LOL!


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## sras (Oct 31, 2009)

I had a 5th grade teacher that would take her pen and bounce it off the head of a mis-behaving chld. Just the right touch - painful, but no visible damage! I only had to watch others get this treatment and I was GOOD! (I'm such a wimp)

One thing I have to share is that I have learned from those that have offered criticism or suggestions on a project. The points have always been made with an attempt to be respectful although in the end it is up to the recipient as to how they feel.

Here are a couple examples that come to mind:
Grain direction, when ignored can distract from a project.
A project with too many artistic details can get confusing. A good guideline is three.

I am sure there are more, but that is what comes to mind. Also, to be fair I have learned TONS more from seeing projects others post, but suggestions and criticism can be educational as well.


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## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

The instructors in the Army used to throw softballs at the guys that fell asleep in class. If they missed and hit someone next to their target they would say "You shouldn't have let that guy fall asleep!". It was an effective teaching aid. What it taught?.. I don't really know but it sure was funny!


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## donbee (Feb 7, 2009)

Forum Cops (Nazis) should be policed themselves, but sometimes they're the cops!

On a forum which shall remain mercifully unnamed, I was PMed in very tough terms by a forum admin for my tone, for use of Bold (not caps) and my statement that I wouldn't be sending a machine back for service rather than service it myself. I'm not sure of the guy's motives, but since he had the power to ban me, I just avoid the site altogether.

There are two guys on LJs who have been at each other with some rather crude expressions. I wonder why they haven't been policed?

ddwwb


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## sras (Oct 31, 2009)

Abbott's story brings another to mind:

One morning in college, the instructor came in just a couple minutes late. He went to the chalkboard and thoroughly erased it. Then he turned around and launched it in an arc that landed on end on the top of this guy's head. Covered him in chalk dust. He was reading the school paper and the prof did NOT like that.


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## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

*Forum Cops (Nazis) should be policed themselves, but sometimes they're the cops!*

/agrees with Don.


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## donbee (Feb 7, 2009)

If I was reading the school paper while waiting for the prof to get ready and he hit me on the head with a chalky eraser I'd have him up on charges.
That's abuse if not assault.
On the other hand, if I were the prof in this scenario, I would first ask for attention. I believe its incumbent on instructors to be the highest level of authority in their classrooms. That would necessarily preclude any childish behavior like throwing things. Teachers at any level of education owe it to their students and themselves to observe a level of decorum. 
Snotty or demeaning remarks, rudity of any kind and physical misbehavior is not the prerogative of teachers. 
ddwwb


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## jusfine (May 22, 2010)

"A man who wants to loan you a slicker when it ain't rainin', ain't doin' much for you…"

and

"When you give a lesson in meanness to a person or a critter, don't be surprised if they learn their lesson".


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## reggiek (Jun 12, 2009)

Nicely done Charlie. I always try to add something constructive if I comment on somone's work (If something is well done I am always happy to state that in my comment - I will never tell someone their project is good if it is not - but I do not ever state a project is bad).

I also realize that I am not an expert or woodworking master by any stretch…so I would never find it my place to denounce someone's project. Sometimes when a project looks "rough" to me (realizing that this is my perception)....if I can offer something constructive I will….if not I leave it be…Folks work hard on these projects and do they best they can mostly…I would rather encourage them with suggestions the discourage them with negative remarks.

I always appreciated the suggestions I got from more experienced woodworkers (I was lucky to be around folks that wanted to help rather then crush my ego) and I try to follow their example if I am asked for an opinion….I would never want to stifle someone's desire for learning this craft…Isn't there enough crappy things going on in this world without adding more negativity?


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## mafe (Dec 10, 2009)

I love you all!
And after I grow up, especially the beautiful Paris nuns can sometimes catch my attention, wonder why!
Do not like this Z word beeing used, I think it's not something to call others, no matter what they did here.
Besides from that, I'm happy that it seems like so many cares for the good tone on LJ.
It's the number one reason why I love to be here, and why I love to share the little knolage I can give.
I was asked the other day 'what do you get payed to make those blogs', and my answer was simple and short: PLEASURE.
I think it's better to be to nice, that to hold back. Even we are LJ's we all must admit, that we get happy when someone like what we do, or even better if they say they will go and do the same, I think this is human, and wonderful.
(And yes I try to keep my private stuff out of the public now, the nun story I mean).
Best thoughts to all of you,
Mads


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## SCOTSMAN (Aug 1, 2008)

It's sometimes nice to be important but it's always important to be nice.
NUN was wrong Your a great guy charlie .


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## rivergirl (Aug 18, 2010)

Hey Mads- I want some of whatever you're taking.  How often DO you visit Amsterdam? LOLOLOLOL


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## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

...a laser pointer may work…

!







!


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## cathyb (Jul 8, 2009)

Charlie I appreciate your insight and humor. Your comments always make me smile.


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## Kristoffer (Aug 5, 2009)

Well said, Charlie. 
I just did my first set of miter keys and I think that they look like crap, but I'm going to post the box anyway. If for no other reason…. To gauge my progress.


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