# Bill Pentz and all hope is lost?



## nightdeath4223 (Sep 21, 2014)

Okay, I know the title may be over the top. But I have read Bill's main argument to his site twice, and the more research I do on DC's, the more I realize that there is really no hope. It seems like I would be better off with a large fan and a mask then collecting dust with a collector. I know the argument that people will say, it is better to spend thousands of dollars on the three hp and above or five hp above systems he suggests instead of failed health. But the reality of it is I have bought all my major equipment first and did not buy the DV system first. So the money is spent, what I am thinking of doing is getting a smaller DC because I am working out of my garage and just have the door open the whole time. I will position the DC close to the door and then have an oscillating fan going. Hopefully, with a mask and all these steps that will be good enough. I am just deflated because I am just now getting into this hobby, and it seems like it is just hopelessly too dangerous.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

I'm not familiar with Bill Pentz ?
I have used inexpensive dust collectors for years and have not had problems. I have set up my HF dust collectors so the discharge outside in little sheds built just for that purpose.this approach removes the dust bag part of dust collection from the inside to the outside removing the need for more expensive low micron bags and high filtration of dust particles. Unless you have unlimited funds you will seldom get 100% efficacy in an DC system but I think my approach helps considerably .


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## SamuraiSaw (Jan 8, 2013)

Dude, get a cup of coffee and take a deep breath. Trust me, the sky is not falling and you are more likely to die of ebola than from woodworking.

I was a firefighter for 31 years. I inhaled a whole lot more worse stuff than I ever have in the workshop, and I started woodworking the same time I joined the fire department.

Dust management is pretty much common sense. Get a good sized dust collector for your shop, perhaps an ambient air cleaner like this one: http://www.cpojettools.com/jet-708620b-afs-1000b--1-000-cfm-heavy-duty-air-filtration-system-with-remote-control/jetn708620b,default,pd.html?start=2&cgid=jet-dust-collection , and wear a dust mask when sanding. Quit worrying about the minutia and go enjoy your workshop.


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## nightdeath4223 (Sep 21, 2014)

> I m not familiar with Bill Pentz ?
> I have used inexpensive dust collectors for years and have not had problems. I have set up my HF dust collectors so the discharge outside in little sheds built just for that purpose.this approach removes the dust bag part of dust collection from the inside to the outside removing the need for more expensive low micron bags and high filtration of dust particles. Unless you have unlimited funds you will seldom get 100% efficacy in an DC system but I think my approach helps considerably .
> 
> - a1Jim


Here is his website. http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/


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## nightdeath4223 (Sep 21, 2014)

> Dude, get a cup of coffee and take a deep breath. Trust me, the sky is not falling and you are more likely to die of ebola than from woodworking.
> 
> I was a firefighter for 31 years. I inhaled a whole lot more worse stuff than I ever have in the workshop, and I started woodworking the same time I joined the fire department.
> 
> ...


I agree, there is a little sarcasm in my overreaction. I was just curious if others felt like it was all doom and glum and there is no hope but to not woodwork.


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## Manitario (Jul 4, 2010)

3hp and above are not "thousands of dollars"...Penn State Ind offers very affordable DC's, as well as several other companies that offer DC's that are over 3hp for under $2G. Bill Pentz offers instructions for you to build your own DC…I started with a typical 1.5hp DC, developed health issues and then upgraded.


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## AtlasRook (Mar 26, 2014)

It seems to me, any internet-going start-up hobby woodworker finds his way to Bill Pentz's website. (I have such a hard time reading anything on that site, because it is such a HUGE WALL OF TEXT!) He does preach it like the apocalypse is coming in the form of wood dust.

I haven't been in this hobby that long either, but after doing more research, here is what I found:
- Dust can be bad for your health → true
- Have a 3 part plan to take care of dust
1. Dust mask
2. Dust collector
3. Air filter
- A harbor freight dust collector is a good deal (with the right coupon can be as cheap as ~$150)
- A box fan and a filter makes a super cheap air filter, BUT an use furnace blower can make a much better air filter. Note: an open gaurage door will work well as an "air filter", as long as there is some airflow going out and fresh air is coming in.
- Buy a dust mask


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## TheWoodenOyster (Feb 6, 2013)

Dude, while Bill Pentz has done a lot of good for woodworking, he also scared the living crap out of all of us at some point or another. SamuraiSaw is right. It is beneficial to protect yourself as much as possible, but in the end there is no freaking way in the world that we woodworkers can avoid breathing in some dust particles. There is also no way in the world any typical person can avoid breathing in some dust particles that are blowing around.

My mantra when it comes to collecting dust is threefold:

1. Dust Collection AKA Chip collection from machines is done more so to aid in clean up than to actually get all of the dust out of the air. At the machine even with a top notch dust collection setup, there is still probably a deadly amount of dust going into the air according to Bill Pentz.

2. Respirators do a hell of a lot better job stopping dust than any dust collector. I have milled a lot of lumber with no dust collection at all using only a respirator. I cannot even smell the wood, much less be breathing in all of the crap I would be breathing in if I were not wearing a mask and just had a dust collector hooked up.Get a Respirator and you'll be amazed.

3. Nothing beats fresh air. In my last last shop, I had one garage door at both ends of the shop. When it got dusty, I would open them up and within a few minutes, even on a calm day, I would have a whole new dust free batch of air in the shop. That isn't possible for everyone, but exchanging air with fans and such does a lot of good. In my dream shop, I plan to have at least two ends of the shop open up with garage type doors. Two gym fans and you can move a helluva a lot of air thru even a large shop.

In the end, do what you can. It is impossible to think we can stop all dust from entering our lungs. Use a respirator and try to get some fresh air into the shop. A dust collector will help with the cleanup.

Good luck and get into the shop!


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## mnguy (Feb 4, 2009)

Also, hook up a vacuum to your power sanders - it not only captures most of the dust, it makes your sandpaper last longer.

I believe the key is to keep as much of the small particles out of the air; these are the particles that do the damage. My approach has been to spend my $'s on a small DC with a good pleated filter; I move it to the machine in use and keep the hose run short. I also have an air cleaner with submicron filtration. When in doubt, I wear an N95 mask.

Would I like a cabinet saw with great dust collection and a 3 hp cyclone central system? Of course. Neither of them will fit in my oddly shaped basement shop. So, I try to seal up my contractor saw and do OK with my 1 hp Penn State DC.


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## timbertailor (Jul 2, 2014)

> Dude, get a cup of coffee and take a deep breath. Trust me, the sky is not falling and you are more likely to die of ebola than from woodworking.
> 
> I was a firefighter for 31 years. I inhaled a whole lot more worse stuff than I ever have in the workshop, and I started woodworking the same time I joined the fire department.
> 
> ...


Sorry, but ones health is important and avoiding the inhalation of saw dust should be taken seriously. I have breathed in a bunch of nasty stuff over the years too but that does not mean it is a smart thing to do or that it could not make one seriously sick. I have seen woodworking friends go from dyed in the wool wood workers to retired fishermen in less than a year. Once you become allergic, it can be VERY dangerous to continue working in the workshop.

Bill Pentz's articles do a great deal to raise awareness and give everyone a goal to reach and a design that they can count on to keep them healthy.

Your casual attitude reflects a lot of peoples attitude about sawdust. But please, do not comment to only dilute everyone's concerns. The logic that I have survived without any ill effects so no one else should have to worry about it is just wrong.

I also see a lot of "DIY" shop "air cleaners". This too is misguided and usually put together with little or no research because it seems like a good idea. Almost all of the DIY designs I have seen use inadequate air filtration. This has the effect of perpetually blowing the dangerous, fine saw dust around the shop the entire time they are on without adequate filtration. Proper filtration is expensive. There is no way to get around it unless you can discharge outside. But please, do not make the situation worse by slapping something together something you saw on LJ's without understanding the health risks and what you are trying to accomplish.

Lastly, he is recommending a system that is shop wide. This means he has also included a LOT of plumbing into his design that drastically lowers the performance of the larger HP systems. If you do not have 6" system and you do not plumb your entire shop with a dedicated DC system, you can get away with less power like I did.


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## CharlesA (Jun 24, 2013)

> I m not familiar with Bill Pentz ?
> - a1Jim


This may be the most unbelievable statement I've ever read on LJ's! Jim is the all time leader poster on LJ, and Bill Pentz's DC research comes up on this site several times per week, at least. I'm flummoxed, I'm verklempt, I'm stunned, I'm beside myself.


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## CharlesA (Jun 24, 2013)

I view Bill Pentz's research the same way I view SawStop-oh no all I have to do is mention Festool and I've raised the holy trifecta of internet woodworking controversy. Bear with me-I'm making a larger point, so please don't get into an argument with me about SawStop.

I think that SawStop is the no-brainer choice for a new full feature table saw. When I am in the market for a new cabinet saw, it will be a SawStop-full stop. However, I have two college-age kids and that is not in the cards right now. So I have CL used tools, the total cost of which is lower than a new SawStop. I try to practice safe woodworking in the time being, and my lack of a SawStop does not keep me from woodworking.

In a similar way, I respect Bill Pentz's research and cannot argue with it. But I cannot go for a 5 hp 220v dust system with 6" ducting at this point. It would cost more than all my tools put together (see a theme developing here?). So, I take as much of his advice as possible. I designed my 4" ducting according to his plan. I bought a 3M 7000 dust mask with two different cartridges that I use mostly with sanding. I am experimenting with my dust exhaust going outside-set it up last night. I take as much of his advice as possible, but I don't stop woodworking because I can't take it all.

Charles


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## SamuraiSaw (Jan 8, 2013)

> Sorry, but ones health is important and avoiding the inhalation of saw dust should be taken seriously. I have breathed in a bunch of nasty stuff over the years too but that does not mean it is a smart thing to do or that it could not make one seriously sick. I have seen woodworking friends go from dyed in the wool wood workers to retired fishermen in less than a year. Once you become allergic, it can be VERY dangerous to continue working in the workshop.
> 
> Bill Pentz s articles to a great deal to raise awareness and give everyone a goal to reach and a design that they can count on to keep them healthy.
> 
> ...


I've read the information from Pentz and found him to be an alarmist with an irrational approach to a simple issue. And rather than read the post I made correctly you have shown you buy into the same irrational mindset. You do not have a clue about my attitude towards anything, much less safety, so feed that slop to another hog.

I highly recommend you find another, more safe, endeavor such as needle point or crochet. Or perhaps you can find a good deal on some positive pressure PPE for the time in the "hot zone" that is your workshop. However, the ebola zealots may have cut all the Pentz zealots out of the market and bought them all up. Actually, both have the same ridiculous mindset, so maybe you can work out a time share on one.

For the vast majority of the rest of us, dust collection is a matter of simple common sense. Use equipment designed for the purpose, wear reasonable respiratory protection, and keep your equipment in good working order. If your paranoia of dust is so great, go find something else to entertain yourself.


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## GregD (Oct 24, 2009)

> Dude, while Bill Pentz has done a lot of good for woodworking, he also scared the living crap out of all of us at some point or another. SamuraiSaw is right. It is beneficial to protect yourself as much as possible, but in the end there is no freaking way in the world that we woodworkers can avoid breathing in some dust particles.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


+1 on all of that. Do the best job with dust control that you can without going broke or crazy. Unless you have a particular sensitivity to wood dust you will probably find that is good enough.

I do find that when I start getting sloppy managing the dust in my shop I get a bit of dry throat and hoarse voice. So yes, the dust isn't good for you, but the practical steps you can take to manage it do a pretty good job.


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## GregD (Oct 24, 2009)

> Dude, while Bill Pentz has done a lot of good for woodworking, he also scared the living crap out of all of us at some point or another. SamuraiSaw is right. It is beneficial to protect yourself as much as possible, but in the end there is no freaking way in the world that we woodworkers can avoid breathing in some dust particles.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


+1 on all of that. Do the best job with dust control that you can without going broke or crazy. Unless you have a particular sensitivity to wood dust you will probably find that is good enough.

I do find that when I start getting sloppy managing the dust in my shop I get a bit of dry throat and hoarse voice. So yes, the dust isn t good for me, but the practical steps one can take to manage it seem to do a pretty good job for me.

- GregD


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## nightdeath4223 (Sep 21, 2014)

My plan of attack is DC for ship collection and have the DC pointed towards and open garage since it will only be 1 hp. Of course have a respirator. The big question I have is what type of fan will be good to move air out of the garage. But I am not overreacting like I have "Ebola" I am just asking the thoughts of those that are experienced. I am not afraid of woodworking and I plan to go forward with it I was just inquiring.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Besides my HF w/Wynn DC, I use TWO fans, one blowing INTO the shop and one blowing OUT of the shop. They are spaced/placed on opposite sides for the shop and utilize my 8×16 garage door opening. Fresh air is good…


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## SamuraiSaw (Jan 8, 2013)

When I had a smaller shop I used an ambient air cleaner similar to the one I referenced earlier. I really liked it and was surprised at the amount of airborne dust it captured. Unfortunately the configuration of our current facility doesn't work well with those filters. But keep an eye on CL as I see them come up from time to time.

We have 2 large air movers set up in the doors to keep air circulating. Box fans work well. If you're concerned about dust build up on the motor an A/C filter on the intake side will keep it down to a manageable level. Another good reliable option is an old squirrel cage fan. They are designed for less clean environments.

It is very reasonable to be concerned about the dust. Over the years I've developed an allergy to oak. Anytime I'm working with it I have to make sure I'm wearing a good mask, otherwise my sinuses will be locked up for days. The 3M valve masks work well for me.


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## NoThanks (Mar 19, 2014)

I'm of the same mindset that DC are for collecting Dust at the machine and does nothing for the small airborne particles that hurt your lungs. 
I'm also of the mindset that shop made air filters are useless in fighting those same small airborne particles unless you have the proper filters and enough cfm to work properly.
The best advise given for those that want to protect their lungs to the fullest is to wear air respirators and filters.
It's also the cheapest investment to protect your lungs. 
Anything else you do to pull the air out of your shop helps, but nothing beats the respirator.
So for the OP I would say to get you the cheap 2 hp Harbor Freight dust collector. Run 4" piping to your tools.
Buy a good respirator!!


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## bonesbr549 (Jan 1, 2010)

Well, I've had the same 2hp unit going on 20 years now. Upgraded to a canister filter from the two cloth bag style. I also swear by DC in my tools and thats one reason I like festool. It's integrated into the tool not an after thought.

I also have an air filtration system that runs. I think it is important. To add another perspective, my wife is a Respiratory therapist. She treats a lot of woodworkers while a lot are professional a good portion is also hobbyists.

Trust me they way she describes a patient that is suffocating due to lungs full of particulate, it ain't pretty. 
So some say ignore it not an issue. For me, anything you do to minimize the risk is better than nothing.

That's my opinion and that and 2.50$ will get you a cup of coffee.


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## OSU55 (Dec 14, 2012)

My dust management plan is don't create a lot of it. The table saw and planer get hooked to the HF dust collector when they run, but that's more chip collection than dust. I use hand planes and scrapers instead of sandpaper. On the rare occasion I fire up the ROS, it's connected to the shop vac, and I wear a p100 rated mask, as I do for light touch up sanding. For those doing a lot of sanding, the super duper DC's make sense.


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## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

CharlesA +10.
I cannot believe the the big Jim wrote that.
Jim were have been for the last 10 years?


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## nightdeath4223 (Sep 21, 2014)

What Bill has done for me is just made me aware. Now it is a sacry aware and I would hate to know something like this on down the road caused an issue that would not have occured if I had not done it. On the other hand I hear what you are all saying and I understand everyone is different in their approach.

However, my health is important and if I can prevent the majority of the bad things in woodworking to not affect me then I will do what I can. The problem I had with Bill's site was he made it sound like there is no hope and that all is lost. Which seemed counter from all the things I have seen and heard from other long time woodworkers who have not experienced any issues using less safety euipment that is available now.


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## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

It appears that Bill Pentz has set up the ideal dust collection system. Yes, it would be nice but how many people can really afford or have the space for a 5 hp dust collector and 6" ducting. It appears that rather encourage people to have a good system it tends to put some people off. What should be encouraged is for people to do the best that they can afford and to be aware of the potential effects. For some people who are sensitive or who have health issues, they probably need to ideal system.

I have a smaller dust collector and have piped it with 4" PVC which some would think is hardly worth doing as it is too small. However, I have watched my cabinet saw, band saw and planer with this system and it is collecting a very high per cent of the dust. How do I know, I can tell by the look of the air in the shop, how much dust settles out on a surface (none) and how my nose is doing. I will admit, that for sanding I take a more proactive approach using a sander known for good dust collection and attached to a HEPA filter vacuum. I think that sanding probably creates more of the very small and more dangerous particles. If I find the dust in the shop is too high with something I am doing, I will use a mask rated as collecting 100% of the dust.


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

It seems to me that all Bill did was a ********************-load of research trying to solve his particular problem, and then present it to the public. In the best of "no good deed goes unpunished", he has been lampooned by many and revered by (probably) just as many. Look….it's very good info (IMHO); only you can decide where you are on the DC continuum, you either want to capture every possible speck of dust at one end, or avoid sweeping the floor (the other end). Go from there and don't spend all your time second guessing yourself. I'm astonished that someone would not have heard of Pentz, he ranks right up there with Flexner and some of the other recognized guru's who are specialists at something of significance to us woodworkers. Good DC is expensive, but not any more expensive than any other top quality tool we need.


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## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

Another issue is that you will find out that you should have used a air better filtration system when it too late to do anything about it.

I have a Clear View dust separator and an (home made) ambient air cleaner.
When your lungs are gone, they are gone for ever, no way back.


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## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

Another issue is that when you will find out that you should have used a air better filtration system, it will be too late to do anything about it.

I have a Clear View dust separator and an (home made) ambient air cleaner.

When your lungs are gone, they are gone for ever, no way back.


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## djg (Jun 24, 2012)

Everyone has valid points. Most of Bills information needs to be sifted. Can you say information overload??!? Good stuff though.

I think one needs to do the best they can. precautionary measures are necessary even with a dust collector. When your shop looks clean….it's probably not. sub micron dust can stay airborne for days and it takes very little air movement for particulate to become airborne again. Use a at the very least a N100/P100 dust mask always. During each project vacuum the shop with a hepa vac. get a small air cleaner…I built mine for $50 using an old furnace blower and a couple of furnace filters. Works like a charm.

I purchased a Dylos 1100 meter to quantify the air quality. its a great little device. Tells me when my collector or air cleaner is behaving the way I expect it to.

Do the best you can, take precautions, you'll me fine. Save some money in a piggy bank and determine your needs then purchase a good collector…you won't be sorry. Here is a review I did a few years back http://lumberjocks.com/reviews/2869#comment-1894182


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

I have no scientific data to back this up.

I believe Bill Pentz know more about dust collection that anyone in this thread.


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## Tennessee (Jul 8, 2011)

I have been in woodworking since 1971. My shop, (about the eighth one), currently has a big garage door, two large 20 inch cheap floor fans with the legs removed and hung along the walls to bring in air on one side and remove it out the garage door on the other. They probably change the air in the shop every two-three minutes.

That and two Grizzly ceiling mounted air filters and two powerful vacuum cleaners that I roll around and hook up to my equipment when I run it and I am good to go.

In the winter, I run the ceiling filters all the time, use a downdraft sander table I built with the vacuum cleaner, and all is good. No hard breathing, no snotty nose, nothing.

You'll have WAY more problems with spraying finish than you ever will with wood dust.


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## buildingmonkey (Mar 1, 2014)

I bought a 2hp woodsucker cyclone about 10 years ago, and it works very well for me. Before buying it, I read everything I could find on the forums about dust collection. Almost went with a 1 1/2hp single stage , but ran across the posts about cyclones, and went that way. I have read Bill's website, and like you get frustrated, as I don't want to have to spend a whole lot more money to barely improve my system. I have done everything I can to increase flow at the machine, increased the opening size on my sanding machines, and traded planers as the original one I had didn't collect well. Found some machines are designed better for dust collection than others. Anyway, sweeping the floor and hand sanding is where I notice dust, and have to wear a respirator for those jobs. Watching clist for a larger dust collector used.


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## RichardHillius (Oct 19, 2013)

I don't think any dust collector regardless of how large and expensive it is can do better than a high quality canister dust mask. The dust mask is the best defense as it's much closer to you. The question is how long can you go wearing one comfortably and can you wear it all the time? A good quality dust collector with good filters is convenient and makes for a more comfortable working environment but it's not required by any means. I would say get the best portable DC you can afford and budget for upgraded canister filters on it. Than use the mask as much as you feel it's needed. I know people who wear a mask 100% of the time when working with wood at the school I go to even in a shop with a overhead commercial dust collector system.

Don't get discouraged. You can work safely in this hobby without buying a huge DC.


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## nightdeath4223 (Sep 21, 2014)

> I don t think any dust collector regardless of how large and expensive it is can do better than a high quality canister dust mask. The dust mask is the best defense as it s much closer to you. The question is how long can you go wearing one comfortably and can you wear it all the time? A good quality dust collector with good filters is convenient and makes for a more comfortable working environment but it s not required by any means. I would say get the best portable DC you can afford and budget for upgraded canister filters on it. Than use the mask as much as you feel it s needed. I know people who wear a mask 100% of the time when working with wood at the school I go to even in a shop with a overhead commercial dust collector system.
> 
> Don t get discouraged. You can work safely in this hobby without buying a huge DC.
> 
> - Richard Hillius


Richard,

I agree, after thinking this over I am just going to invest in a respirator and get a really good exhaust fan. Thanks for the encouragement and I went ahead and built my first project so I am super excited and glad to be doing this.


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## Crank50 (Jan 31, 2014)

My dad spent 50 years walking behind a 5 hp drum type floor sander, which had a 30 micron dust bag on it. He usually wore a filter respirator but he was also exposed almost daily to solvents and fumes from all kinds of finishes and lead paint which the respirator did nothing for. Then as if to give the grim reaper "the finger" he smoked at least a pack of unfiltered Camels a day. We kept telling him that ******************** would kill him sooner or later, and it did when he was 87. He got too old and feeble to work any more at 84, and I honestly think he died of boredom as much as the pneumonia that finally did him in.

The point of this? I think most of us are going to die from something. And often our family history can give us a clue what we need to be careful about. Common sense and realistic precautions are what's needed. But, in the end you can't really change the inevitable, just delay it for a while, if you are lucky.


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