# Of interest to Military and Veterans



## yank (Feb 1, 2007)

I have sent this to my Congressional Reps. in Washington, D.C. It may be of interest to all Americans.

Message Subject: My tricare and Terrorist soccer field
Message Text:
I am a retired Military Veteran, and I am outraged by what that imposter in the WH is trying to do. Something has to be done to not allow the following to happen. 
" Obama's plan is to cut $1.8 billion from Tricare, the military's health insurance and medical system, in the fiscal 2013 budget, and a whopping $12.9 billion by 2017. Administration officials told Congress that the goal of the increased fees is to force military retirees out of military health coverage and instead onto the rolls of the ObamaCare system, including all that goes with it - Death Panels, Independent Payment Advisory Boards, the works."

If you have the influence to gather the force together, PLEASE try to get this stopped. Terrorists do not and should not have priority over our Military and our retirees. Wayne Gauthier


----------



## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

You mean Obama's cutting health care for veterans and putting that money to a terrorist soccer field?


----------



## JollyGreen67 (Nov 1, 2010)

I don't know about everyone else - but - I am getting real tired of hearing all the whining from the bigots, racists, right wing wing nuts, birther nuts, holier than thou attitudes of the religeous fanatics, and anti-everything crowd of proclaimed self righteous hate mongers.


----------



## bigkev (Mar 16, 2011)

Rosebud, you forgot the whiny-ass bleeding heart liberals who want everything given to them and theirs with my hard earned tax dollars.


----------



## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

rosebudjim = +10

bigkev = Neg. points, aka sphincter spasm


----------



## yank (Feb 1, 2007)

Hey rosebud, if you are an obumma lover, suck it up, the Dummo's have done their damndest to dumb up us bigots, racists, right wing wing nuts, birther nuts etc.,as you call us, but, it hasn't worked. Can you prove beyond reasonable doubt that he IS a legal US citizen? He was not vetted, McCain was vetted even tho he has been a Senator and born and raised in the US. You Dummos are so transparent .


----------



## yank (Feb 1, 2007)

Waho609, that is what I read from that quote. This came from "Conservative Contacts Alerts. @ 
http://emailactivity.ecn5.com/engines/publicPreview.aspx?blastID=512382&emailID=145621998

OBAMA SLASHES MILITARY HEALTHCARE YET BUILDS
$750,000 SOCCER FIELD FOR GUANTANAMO TERRORISTS

ppacsoldierssalutingThe Obama administration is set to jack up military health insurance premiums by 345% and slash $12.9 billion worth of active duty and retiree Tricare coverage. Yet the very same day, plans were revealed to build a state of the art $750,000 soccer field for the terrorists being held at Guantanamo Bay.

OUR SOLDIERS, SAILORS, AIRMEN AND MARINES NEED OUR HELP RIGHT NOW! - FAX CONGRESS HERE!

Obama's plan is to cut $1.8 billion from Tricare, the military's health insurance and medical system, in the fiscal 2013 budget, and a whopping $12.9 billion by 2017. Administration officials told Congress that the goal of the increased fees is to force military retirees out of military health coverage and instead onto the rolls of the ObamaCare system, including all that goes with it - Death Panels, Independent Payment Advisory Boards, the works.

ppacguantnamobayMeanwhile, Fox News discovered that the administration is currently in the process of building a state of the art $750,000 soccer field for the terrorists held at Guantanamo. The detainees will now have a choice of three recreation centers while they "suffer" through their detainment.

Since when does America put the comfort of terrorists above the needs of the men

Read from that what you will.


----------



## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

*@yank SAID: "...McCain was vetted even tho he has been a Senator and born and raised in the US. You Dummos are so transparent ."*

RepubliKons can't even get their facts straight! DOAH!

http://www.snopes.com/politics/mccain/citizen.asp

SNOPES.COM

*Claim: John McCain does not qualify as a natural-born citizen of the U.S. because he was born in Panama.

Status: Undetermined.*

Example: [Collected via e-mail, July 2008]

I am hearing talk that Senator John McCain is not eligible to be President of the United States because he is not a natural-born citizen.

Origins: Among the few qualifications specified in Article II, Section I of the U.S. Constitution regarding eligibility for the office of President of the United States is that the office-holder must be a "natural born citizen of the United States." This qualification has not previously been an issue in U.S. politics since no one so far elected to the office of president (or who otherwise served as president) was born outside of the United States. But it has been a (minor) issue so far in 2008, as the presumptive Republican presidential nominee, Senator John McCain of Arizona, was born not in the U.S. proper but in the Panama Canal Zone. (McCain's parents were themselves U.S. citizens, and at the time of his birth they lived on a military installation in the Panama Canal Zone, where his father was stationed as a U.S. Navy
officer.) If Senator McCain were deemed not to be a natural-born citizen of the United States, his name could be kept off of ballots in the 2008 presidential election, and he could be ineligible to serve as president even if won the election.

As much we'd like to dismiss this one as just another frivolous election season rumor, it's impossible to make any definitive statement about Senator McCain's presidential eligibility because the issue is a matter of law rather than a matter of fact, and the law is ambiguous. There is no disputing that, under the U.S. statutes and laws applicable to the offspring of Americans living abroad and to the Canal Zone, John McCain is a citizen of the United States. However, the difference between "citizen" and "natural-born citizen" is an important one in this case, and some of the legal distinctions between the two are still murky. (The particular sticking points in Senator McCain's case are whether the Panama Canal Zone was covered by existing citizenship laws at the time of his birth, and whether someone who was born outside the U.S. and holds U.S. citizenship status by virtue of a law passed after his birth and applied retroactively qualifies as a natural-born citizen.)

The framers of the Constitution didn't elaborate on the term "natural born citizen," there has never been a court case defining exactly what a "natural-born citizen" is, and neither Congress nor the Supreme Court has definitively resolved the issue. It is therefore not completely inconceivable that someone could mount a legal challenge to Senator McCain's presidential eligibility, and that the issue would have to be decided in court:
"There are powerful arguments that Senator McCain or anyone else in this position is constitutionally qualified, but there is certainly no precedent," said Sarah H. Duggin, an associate professor of law at Catholic University who has studied the issue extensively. "It is not a slam-dunk situation."

In a paper written 20 years ago for the Yale Law Journal on the natural-born enigma, Jill Pryor, now a lawyer in Atlanta, said that any legal challenge to a presidential candidate born outside national boundaries would be "unpredictable and unsatisfactory … it is certainly not a frivolous issue." 
The issue is even more complicated because the process of challenging a presidential candidate's eligibility is itself a murky issue, as the New York Times noted:
Lawyers who have examined the topic say there is not just confusion about the provision [regarding natural-born citizenship status] itself, but uncertainty about who would have the legal standing to challenge a candidate on such grounds, what form a challenge could take and whether it would have to wait until after the election or could be made at any time.
A lawsuit challenging Senator McCain's eligibility is pending in Federal District Court in Concord, New Hampshire, but whether that lawsuit will be allowed to proceed is questionable:
In the motion to dismiss the New Hampshire suit, Mr. McCain's lawyers said an individual citizen like the plaintiff, a Nashua man named Fred Hollander, lacks proof of direct injury and cannot sue.

Daniel P. Tokaji, an election law expert at Ohio State University, agreed. "It is awfully unlikely that a federal court would say that an individual voter has standing," he said. "It is questionable whether anyone would have standing to raise that claim." 
In April 2008 the Senate approved a non-binding resolution declaring John McCain eligible to be president, one which stated that "There is no evidence of the intention of the framers or any Congress to limit the constitutional rights of children born to Americans serving in the military nor to prevent those children from serving as their country's president." However, that resolution has no legal effect.

Two constitutional lawyers (Laurence Tribe and Theodore Olson) who have studied the issue at the request of Senator McCain found in his favor, but another law scholar recently declared he had determined just the opposite:
In the most detailed examination yet of Senator John McCain's eligibility to be president, a law professor at the University of Arizona has concluded that neither Mr. McCain's birth in 1936 in the Panama Canal Zone nor the fact that his parents were American citizens is enough to satisfy the constitutional requirement that the president must be a "natural-born citizen."

The analysis, by Prof. Gabriel J. Chin, focused on a 1937 law that has been largely overlooked in the debate over Mr. McCain's eligibility to be president. The law conferred citizenship on children of American parents born in the Canal Zone after 1904, and it made John McCain a citizen just before his first birthday. But the law came too late, Professor Chin argued, to make Mr. McCain a natural-born citizen.

"It's preposterous that a technicality like this can make a difference in an advanced democracy," Professor Chin said. "But this is the constitutional text that we have." 
If a consensus on the matter can be said to exist, it is that if John McCain is not a natural-born citizen under the law, it's only because of an exceptional and narrow gap in the law that was subsequently corrected and was never intended to exclude someone in his circumstances from natural-born citizenship status, so it would be unfair to declare him ineligible for the presidency on that basis:
"No court will get close to it, and everyone else is on board, so there's a constitutional consensus, the merits of arguments such as [Professor Chin's] aside," said Peter J. Spiro, an authority on the law of citizenship at Temple University.

"You'd have to think a federal court would look for every possible way to avoid deciding the issue," [said election law expert Daniel P. Tokaji].

Senator Lindsey Graham, Republican of South Carolina and one of Mr. McCain's closest allies, said it would be incomprehensible to him if the son of a military member born in a military station could not run for president.

"He was posted there on orders from the United States government," Mr. Graham said of Mr. McCain's father. "If that becomes a problem, we need to tell every military family that your kid can't be president if they take an overseas assignment." 
Last updated: 23 July 2008

Urban Legends Reference Pages © 1995-2012 by Barbara and David P. Mikkelson.
This material may not be reproduced without permission.
snopes and the snopes.com logo are registered service marks of snopes.com.
Sources Sources:

Hulse, Carl. "Senate Says McCain Is Qualified." 
The New York Times. 1 May 2008.

Hulse, Carl. "McCain's Canal Zone Birth Prompts Queries About Whether That Rules Him Out." 
The New York Times. 28 February 2008.

Liptak, Adam. "A Hint of New Life to a McCain Birth Issue." 
The New York Times. 11 July 2008.

Associated Press. "McCain: My Citizenship Not an Issue." 
USA Today. 29 February 2008.

Associated Press. "McCain Says Citizenship Issue Settled 44 Years Ago." 
USA Today. 29 February 2008 (p. A6).

The Denver Post. "McCain Says His Birthplace Isn't an Issue." 
USA Today. 29 February 2008 (p. A6).


----------



## jordanusmc (Oct 17, 2011)

HorizontalMike: this John McCain thing kind of goes both way according to factcheck.org he is a U.S. citizen adn 100% capable of being President (well maybe I should say legally allowed to be President not "capable")
http://www.factcheck.org/2008/02/john-mccains-presidential-eligibility/

Q: How can Panamanian-born McCain be elected president?

A: Though born abroad, he is considered a natural-born U.S. citizen.

FULL QUESTION:

I understand John McCain was born in Panama. Doesn't that make him ineligible to be president? I thought the Constitution said you had to have been born in a state.

FULL ANSWER:

John McCain's father was an admiral in the U.S. Navy who was stationed in Panama in 1936, when McCain was born. This has led to speculation as to whether McCain is a U.S. citizen and whether he can be elected president, a question that was raised during McCain's run for the Republican nomination in 2000 as well.

Section 1, Article II of the U.S. Constitution states:

Article II: "No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States."

But McCain is a natural-born citizen, even though he was not born within this country's borders, since his parents were citizens at the time of his birth. As a congressional act stated in 1790:

Congress: "And the children of citizens of the United States, that may be born beyond sea, or out of the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural born citizens."

Another congressional act in 1795 issued a similar assurance, though it changed the language from "natural born citizen" to "citizen."

But the State Department clarifies the issue, saying that the 1790 language is honored under section 301© of the Immigration and Nationality Act.

This is not the first time the question has been broached in a presidential election. Fellow Arizonian Barry Goldwater was born in the Arizona territory before it was a state. And Mitt Romney's father, George, ran for president in 1968, though he was born in Mexico. Like McCain, both were born to U.S. citizens and, therefore, considered to be American citizens.

However, both of those candidates were unsuccessful in their bids - and so a smidgen of uncertainty remains. If McCain wins the presidency, the constitutionality of these congressional statutes could be challenged in the courts. Members of Congress have expressed this fear and proposed a more explicit law, or even a Constitutional amendment. Neither has been adopted.

-Justin Bank

Update, June 16: This article originally didn't note the distinction in language between the 1790 and 1795 congressional acts.

Sources
Rudin, Ken. "Citizen McCain's Panama Problem." Washington Post, 9 July 1998.

"An Act to Establish a Uniform Rule of Naturalization." 1st U.S. Congress, 2nd Session, 26 Mar. 1790.

"An Act to Establish a Uniform Rule of Naturalization; and to repeal the act heretofore passed on that subject." 3rd U.S. Congress, 2nd Session, 29 June 1795.

Olson, Elizabeth. "U.S. Congress moves to clarify the rules : Just how 'American' must a president be?" International Herald Tribune, 2 June 2004.

But back to the OP I do think that it is kind of crazy that we spend 750,00 on a soccer field in Gitmo hell I think it would be crazy for the US gov to spend that on a soccer field in America!!!


----------



## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

And you wanna be a Birther about Obama being born in Hawaii but McCain born in Panama is OK…'shore…


----------



## KenFitz (May 21, 2007)

Yank,

I am in the same boat (Navy Vet). I would not however believe one thing that came from that web address. I belong to several very politically active veteran organizations. When they come out and tell us who to blame, I will lead the charge against those messing with veteran benefits.


----------



## BobM001 (Jan 8, 2012)

But BOTH of John McCain's parents were NATURAL born US citzens. Can the "Usurper in Chief" say the same? NO HELL NO! Like the Clintons, BHO HATES the military. He and his Marxist cronies have nothing but CONTEMPT for the military and veterans. They want to take the money away from the retired and active duty military families but feel we have to pay for contraception for Georgetown law school coeds and all the other college coeds that are "going broke" trying to maintain their sex lives. Obama Favors Students Getting Paid to Screw While Screwing Over Troops By Lucy Emerson, a military wife. I wonder what the out cry would be like if funding/services for public employees health care was cut the same?


----------



## derosa (Aug 21, 2010)

How is it the political spin machine can keep painting this as paying students to have sex? You do know that some people need birth control for actual medical reasons? My wife went on birth control when she was 14 for medical reasons and was in a lot of pain for several months in a row while trying to get pregnant and her condition isn't rare. So we shouldn't require insurance companies to pay for this? So plenty of girls will use it to have birth control so they can sleep around, beats paying for abortions or dropping one more unwanted kid into the system. Birth control pills aren't that expensive, I had to pay for my wife's for 3 years while we didn't have insurance, the companies are already over charging so they can give their CEOs far more then they are worth. Let them pony up some cash and pay for the pills, they can cut back on the bonuses this year before hiking the rates again next year.

How is Obama an "usurper in chief" any more then Bush who effectively stole two elections? He ran, he won, he had the birth certificate so get over it; on the plus side you'll probably have 4 more years to work on your insults for the president since the Republicans can't seem to produce anyone worth voting for that will make it to the actual election. Nothing like rounding up the biggest bunch of losers out there to hand Obama the reelction on a silver platter.


----------



## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Pretty much dead on Russ. The only thing I might add (you heard it here first America) is that the Republicans will NOT put one of the current GOP candidates in the election and will throw in someone else who has not run at all. Someone like Jeb Bushwhacked from the inept banksters/CEO Clan or Chris ChrispieCream the crony capitalist. And then they will all act like a messiah has arrived and… and… well you know what I mean.


----------



## Howie (May 25, 2010)

H. Mike…Christie sucks up to the muslims too much. Anyone that would vote for him might as well vote for a mullah.


----------



## ShipWreck (Feb 16, 2008)

I am fed up with all the broken promises that the goverment has dished out to military people over the years. The politicians treat the military in the same terms as welfare recipients for the most part.

I want to see the draft reinstated. I want to see a politicians face when thier son or daughter comes home missing limbs. I want to see a politician cope with a son or daughter with PTSD.


----------



## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Shipwreck,
DITTO!

HorizontalMike
#81 in 1972
US Navy Jan 1972-Oct 1975


----------



## KenFitz (May 21, 2007)

Mike,

I really like your way of thinking!!

ShipWreck,

I was in the Navy when all services became volunteers. We had some fine men and women. I would love to see the draft return to equalize service of all americans. I know this wouldn't be popular but I feel everyone should serve their country in some way for at least 2 years. It would give people a whole new outlook. Too many people just sit back and complain when they have done nothing to earn the right. Just my opinion but I know I'm right!

Ken Fitzpatrick, Retired U. S. Navy/DAV
Volunteered before I was drafted - my choice
U. S. Navy Feb 67-Apr 80


----------



## ShipWreck (Feb 16, 2008)

I entered bootcamp on January 13, 1977 and entered the "fleet reserve" on February 1997. After Clinton took office, it was nothing more than social engineering. I loved my first 10 years, but could not wait to retire during the last 10. I was lucky enough to be down in the enginerooms and I avoided most of the modern surface warfare politics. Nobody cares about military creases in you're shirts or spit shined boots when the engineroom is a 120 degrees and the machinery has to keep running. Most sailors/officers avoided the enginerooms at all costs due to the heat, grease, and fuel smells…... so we had our own little universe to ourselves. 

John Lannon
En1/SW (Engineman 1st Class)
Jan 77 - Feb 97


----------



## jordanusmc (Oct 17, 2011)

*@HMike *And you wanna be a Birther about Obama being born in Hawaii but McCain born in Panama is OK…'shore…**
are you referring to my post from factcheck.org? I find it funny that you throw out your third party info and expect us to take it as the gospel, but you do not bother to verify your information or accept the fat that other just as "reputable" sites have a contradicting idea.
Just for clarification I never said that Obama was not a US citizen I was simply just trying to point out that their is reputable documentation to contradict what your post said. I fully believe that he is an American citizen.


----------



## BobM001 (Jan 8, 2012)

I NEVER said that Obama is not a "citizen" either. But I will say this. According to the terms that specify "Natural born citizen", HE IS NOT! He admitted in his own book that his father was born in Kenya and was never even naturalized. In fact he was KICKED OUT of the USA by INS.

Article 2 section 1:
"*No person except a natural born Citizen*, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States."

US Senate Resolution 511


----------



## JollyGreen67 (Nov 1, 2010)

Just for the record from where all this started, and a little history. I am a retired Air Force veteran, on social security, a VA study in Agent Orange (3 back-to-back tours in VietNam), shot at in Tunisa, in Libya at Wheelus AB, 1967, during the 6 day war, Cape Town, South Africa, where I got caught up in the riots, Argentina, 1974, under martial law and was within 4 hours of being kidnapped by anti-government insurgents when the National Guard rescued us (we had no idea this was going to happen), shot at in the Philippines by insurgents, in the middle of the Laos invasion, 1971, with the 1/5 Army who, somehow, made our way into Tchepone, and many other things I will not mention. This argument started out as an increase in Tricare for the military. As stated, I am retired, and the Tricare system is CHEAP, $430 a year for a family, as compared to the rest of the world, and you want to bitch because of a raise in premimums?! With all the trials and tribulations I had while on active duty, I will not complain about a SMALL increase in access to what the Government gives us. I will bet anything in the world, anybody else out there would give their left %#@ to pay what we pay. So, what this all breaks down to is exactly what I stated in my first statement: BIGOTRY, because all you right wing skin heads cannot accept a person of color who became our leader. BIG DAMN DEAL! LIVE WITH IT! You don't like it, take your ilk, and move to Timbuctu where you will be most happy.

rosebudjim, USAF (retired)
1965-1985
ADC, NORAD, TAC, USAFE, SOCOM, PACAF, SAC, ATC, 7AF, and 1/5 ARMY (I Corp)


----------



## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

rosebud = +100 this time!

It just pisses these jerks off that "Lefties" and "Democrats" are veterans too. I swear my links to brain research regarding lack of intelligence and prejudice just keeps on getting confirmed over and over again by these dead ringers for test-case dummies.


----------



## ShipWreck (Feb 16, 2008)

What makes me laugh is the division of the american people. Both democrat and republican parties are killing this country. People take up sides with either party, declaring the other side to be idiots. Both parties are full of cowardly career minded politicians, and they will do what ever it takes to stay in office. The latest birth control issue is just the latest example of intentional distraction. We have kids still dying in Afghanistan. The economy is about 6 years away from picking up. People who have worked hard are still losing thier homes. Gas is over 4 dollars a gallon. The goverment keeps sending billions of borrowed dollars overseas to aide the very people who hate us. It is no wonder that the younger people have no sense of who to trust in thier elders when we act the way we do. This thread is a excellent example.


----------



## KenFitz (May 21, 2007)

There are a lot of intelligent people here that "get it". Rosebud, Mike and Shipwreck are at the top of that list. Ti all of the vets here, Thanks for your service!! It seems we served at different times but serve we did and the last place any custs should be made is from any active duty or veterans retirement benefits.

For a good part of the time I was on active duty, we "the military" had to lead the way by example and suffer pay freezes over long periods of time. It's time for all that crap to stop. Lets keep our promises to those who served, since as many have pointed out, its only 1% of america that has. We were never in the 1% that are being asked to pay their fair shair now.

Regardless of what is said here, lets all remember that it is our freedom that lets us say it. On this note, I'm going back to woodworking. The diversion was stimulating but "I love the smell of sawdust in the morning"


----------



## ShipWreck (Feb 16, 2008)

Well said Ken…..... I have some hand planes to tune.


----------



## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

rosebudjim
We are not "right wing skin heads" or "bigots" or not accepting a "person of color". That's again Lefty name calling when you're frustrated with folks that believe in this country's heritage of work, family values and private enterprise.
The joker in the white house believes in "community organization" (ACORN), and a socialist form of government that rewards labor unions and stifles free enterprise. (Small business free of unions and Govt. mandates) His color has no bearing on any of us. His hypocrisy has everything to do with it.
No, I won't move to another country, I'll just work to stomp on liberals like they are working to crush the America that my depression era parents worked hard for to build a better future for my generation.
Too bad the kids in the 60's took advantage of it, rebelled, as the spoiled brats, did the drugs, (tuned out and turned off) and are now the political liberal base trying to destroy what the past generations have built. Namely, the foundations we are trying to save.


----------



## JollyGreen67 (Nov 1, 2010)

I wish I had some hand planes to tune, as all the bitchin' that comes from either side is grinding us all down. The point I was trying to make is - The ultra right wing party is trying to shove what they believe in down ALL of our throats, no matter if it destroys the country or not. And, if you are not a "right wing skin head bigot," why do you hate those of us who are not?


----------



## JollyGreen67 (Nov 1, 2010)

It's amazing how many small brains engulf the world.


----------



## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

These Right Wing Fanatics want to gut the VA and give the money to the rich.

THE most successful, and highly successful to boot, *socialized program in the United States of America* is the Veterans Administration Health Care System. Even with a prolonged history of under-funding, the VA has continued to serve veterans with some of the best care available. Yes, sometimes it takes time to get service because of the underfunding, but veterans ARE being served, regardless of color, gender, rank, of religious preferences.

Regardless of the hour of the day, I have always been treated with respect and kindness.

*Republicans Seek To Cut 1.3 Million Vets*

*Republicans Want To Cut Healthcare Benefits For 1.3 Million Veterans*

*GOP Looks at Cutting Veterans Health Benefits for 2011-12 Session to Fulfill Pledge*


----------



## derosa (Aug 21, 2010)

Bob, I've asked this question before and no one has answered it yet that likes to view Obama as an illegitimate president, how is he not a natural born citizen? You put

I NEVER said that Obama is not a "citizen" either. But I will say this. According to the terms that specify "Natural born citizen", HE IS NOT! He admitted in his own book that his father was born in Kenya and was never even naturalized. In fact he was KICKED OUT of the USA by INS.
But nothing in your statement contradicts that he is a natural born citizen. There are thousands of people who fly into the USA every year from all over the world to give birth and then head home. It isn't for the health care, it is because their offspring are automatically natural born citizens regardless of the origin, race, culture, or citizenship status of the parents. That child can then claim duel citizenship. If they then come to the US for college and stay in the US thereafter until they are old enough they can run for the presidency as natural born citizens. That is the way it works. Obama was born in HI, get over your birther BS, accept the fact that he is a legitimate US citizen and that he won. This country could have gotten a lot more done in the last 3 years if a whole bunch of people could accept that he won and work with him rather then constantly trying to tear him down.


----------



## JollyGreen67 (Nov 1, 2010)

So correct Mike!

I have never been denied healthcare by the VA - even in the middle of the night at the ER. What galls me is the how any veteran can bitch about the so called "socialist" behavior of President Obama, when HE OPENED THE VA TO ALL VETERANS, NOT JUST THOSE WITH DISABILITIES for medical care. AND THE GOP OPPOSED IT! As long as the GOP war mongers are in charge, we the veterans, are on our own, even if we return with only part of our bodies, or our minds are so screwed up (PTSD) we have a difficult time comprehending what is happening around us. It took me years to understand this, and I had the best damn Psyc Doc this side of the Rio Grande! THE GOP COULD CARE LESS, because THAT IS/WAS OUR JOB. What I really can't understand is John McCain - all the years in the Hanoi Hilton and he is a war monger

And, Thanks to Russ.


----------



## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

I don't get where some democrats believe that the democratic party, or Obama in particular are any real friends of the military -
In March 2009 it was Obama that wanted Military injuries to be paid for by private insurance companies.
http://articles.cnn.com/2009-03-10/politics/veterans.health.insurance_1_disabled-american-veterans-veterans-of-foreign-wars-service-related-injuries?_s=PMOLITICS

Veterans Affairs Secretary Eric Shinseki confirmed Tuesday that the Obama administration is considering a controversial plan to make veterans pay for treatment of service-related injuries with private insurance.

The outcry got that idea dropped - and the whitehouse had to walk back the proposal-> Direct from the Whitehouse:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Statement-from-Press-Secretary-Robert-Gibbs-on-the-Presidents-Strong-Commitment-to/

As far as the latest budget discussion -
I question when Rosebud jim says:
*I will not complain about a SMALL increase in access to what the Government gives us. *
Because - this is not a SMALL increase!

http://news.yahoo.com/obama-thanks-military-tripling-tricare-premiums-235100402.html

Under the new plan, Tricare annual premiums will increase 30 percent to 78 percent in the first year. After that the plan more than triples the premium payment in five-year increases ranging from *94 percent to 345 percent*.

"According to congressional assessments," Free Beacon reported, "a retired Army colonel with a family currently paying $460 a year for health care will pay $2,048."

Yet for the civilian DOD population there is no increase in premiums.

Mike raises valid points that VA spending has been a pawn of Republican lawmakers as well - but contrary to those above, it is not as one sided as democratss would like it appear.


----------



## JollyGreen67 (Nov 1, 2010)

Contrary to an abundance of beliefs from both sides, we veterans are all caught in the middle of a tug-o-war that either side could care less about, because every politician, no matter which side of the aisle, are a bunch of "pack my wallet full" okole pukas.

So . . . . . My thread is full, til next time.


----------



## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Dirt,
I think that Obama got caught up in "trying" to actually work "with" the Republicans in Congress. And THAT is the problem with this Congress, the Republicans refuse any kind of consensus agreement AT ALL. Now Obama gets heat for even trying to negotiate with the stonewalling Republicans.

I am not real proud about much of what Obama has done or tried to do in this regard, BUT I assure you that I sure as hell would NOT trust ANY Republican to replace him in 2012. EVER!


----------



## jordanusmc (Oct 17, 2011)

I think the OP had a good point there is something flawed in building a $750,000 soccer field and at the same time raising premiums for military personnel. I said it earlier but I think that the major issue is that we paid to have the stupid soccer field built in the beginning. I think no matter what side of the aisle you are on chances are you are tired of seeing wasteful spending. Sure there could be a point made that we do not need to have Gitmo to begin with and if we weren't fighting these wars we wouldn't have to worry about the soccer field. Unfortunately or fortunately (depending what side of the argument you are on) we are stuck in this war at least for a little bit longer. I do not think we should 
build a soccer field and spend 750,000 bucks on it no matter what the justification is.

I would also be interested in who approved this project. Obviously it takes awhile for this type of stuff to go threw and such. Was this approved during Obama's term or Bush's term. I have no clue however wouldn't that be ironic if it was approved while Bush was in the WH.

As for the increase in tricare there are two problems with it as was already stated it does not apply to DOD civilian contractors which I do not agree with. Also when was the last time there was a raise in premiums and when was the last time the military got a par raise? I am not saying every time the military gets a 3% pay raise they should raise premiums 3%, but there does have to be some give and take here. If the military received 10 or 15% pay raise since the last premium raise what do they expect.

Just FYI I am a veteran recently separated after 2 deployments in Irag and 1 in Afghan. I am also a Republican/Libertarian.


----------



## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

I think drawing a parallel between building the GITMO soccer field and any proposed tricare premium increase* is disingenuous to say the least*. One has NOTHING to do with the other.

That is kind of like blaming the amount of $$$ spent on ******************** paper in a given year, on a particular political party and blaming them when YOUR stall happens to be OUT when you need it to wipe YOURs. Just sayin'...


----------



## HawkDriver (Mar 11, 2011)

The two topics definitely should be seperated. The only thing the soccer field and raising costs to veterans have in common is that neither should be happening, IMHO of course.


----------



## jordanusmc (Oct 17, 2011)

I understand that they are "apples and oranges" I was trying to re-emphasize the OP as opposed to the name calling (not to start that again). I completely agree that they should not be tied together. However props to YANK for utilizing his rights as an American citizen and writing his congressman something that I could do more often and I am sure a few others could also.


----------



## jordanusmc (Oct 17, 2011)

http://devoutinfidel.wordpress.com/2012/03/04/pentagon-spends-744k-on-soccer-field-for-gitmo-prisons/
http://www.military.com/news/article/some-in-congress-object-to-new-soccer-field-at-gitmo.html

These two links show that the DOD is shooting itself in the foot. According to these two reports the DOD paid for the soccer field, yet people cry foul that we are taking money away from the troops that they need. I suppose its not only the politicians in D.C. that are spending wastefully Admirals and Generals are playing politics with tax money to.


----------



## HawkDriver (Mar 11, 2011)

Chipmunk, are you defending the thought of raising healthcare costs for soldiers that have retired, have been seperated with disability or who have been seriously injured physically or mentally during wartime? Im at 14 years right now. Im not here 'cause it's fun. I have given up more than I ever thought I would with expectations of having these types of benefits for myself and family when I retire.

My son will be 12 when I retire. You can bet on the family plan for me, and many others that I am currently serving with.

Part of serving is being able to have access to the "cheaper than civilian" healthcare upon retirement. I'll tell you what. I'll glady trade the near death experiences that will hopefully allow me to use the VA programs in exchange for the higher healthcare costs and civilian status.


----------



## jordanusmc (Oct 17, 2011)

Chipmunk I understand why the cost is high, however that does not excuse the act of building the field to begin with. I understand that President Obama said that he wanted to close down GITMO. The fact that the Republicans didn't allow it to happen doesn't give the Pentagon the justification to waste money on the field. Two wrongs do not make a right not matter if you were for or against closing down GITMO the fact that it is still open is not justification to build an IMHO waste money on the soccer field.

That is also a very astute observation about a Colonel being a little old to have kids at home, but he could…......


----------



## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

I can thank the Navy for my tinnitus for all those hours spent in the engine room between steam turbine generators. I never got rated for it at all. Sometimes the ringing is so loud that I cannot hear folks talking normally…


----------



## HawkDriver (Mar 11, 2011)

Chip,

I am saying that military personal should be realistic. I was in the Army for nine years and I know that if I had stayed in there would be certain benefits if and when I retired. I also knew that those benefits could be increased and/or decreased by future political events. (if your retirement pay were increased after you retired would you refuse it?)

I'm with you here, however:
If there were a decrease in pay or benefits, when everything else we HAVE to spend money on is increasing would you accept that? I am all about looking at these numbers realistically. We are paying more and more for necessities(gas, electricity, food, water etc…) and are you now expecting veterans to accept a hike for services they earned? Beacuse it's realistic?

I can tell you guys that at this point the VA is doing a better job(at least making the effort) with percentages for disability. With the wars over the past decade the spotlight is on them to try and treat veterans right. I fly helicopters and have tinnitus. Several guys I know who have recently retired were given 20% for the Tinnitus… generally more with PTSD considerations.


----------



## lwllms (Jun 1, 2009)

There are a lot of conservative knee-jerk myths out there. As a disabled veteran who depends on the VA, I try to keep up with what's happening. There is a move, primarily by Republicans but also joined by a few Democrats, to privatize the VA health care system. The DAV has called this the "Republican War on Veterans' Benefits." There was a period where VA health care was seriously lacking but a huge effort was put into making it the best and most cost-effective healthcare system in the Nation. I see that going backwards now and care levels are falling quickly under the current hiring freeze and budget cuts.

The Nation could dramatically cut its skyrocketing and debt generating healthcare costs by going to a single-payer system based on the VA system. My wife has very good health insurance through her work but doesn't get as good of care as I get. I'd be more than willing to pay for a publicly funded health care system if my wife and daughter could have access to the level of care I get. The problem is that corporate interests are doing every thing they can to kill the successful program at the VA so they can continue to rake in big profits.


----------



## JollyGreen67 (Nov 1, 2010)

I'm back. When I retired, the personnel office gave me a form to fill in all about my medical condition(s), to be forwarded to the VA for consideration. Sorry, it's been to long ago to remember the form nbr. I did list tinnitus from working around jet engines - disapproved, broken left leg under fire that healed crooked - disapproved, periphial (sic) neuoperative - disapproved, muscle and vienous deterioation of both legs - approved for 30% ! Of course, at that time the DOD/VA would not even think/admit to Agent Orange problems, and that only took 26 years! So, of course, the fumble fingers in Congress says for us to live with it. If I remember, it was Jesse Brown who took the bulls by the balls in both halls to admit anything. And what did Jesse get - FIRED ! What really got those lazy do nothing idiots to accept the truth was a law suit, of which I submitted all of the proper medical forms to be considered - disapproved - because I had not been evaluated in the field when I was sprayed with Agent Orange by the C-123K's flying over us. Besides, there was no proof that Agent Orange did anything except kill green things. Hell, we were wearing green! As for PTSD - the DOD/VA was a non-believer, until the Irag and Afghanistan veterans returning were diagnosed with "something wrong". So, all of us VietNam vets with the same symptons were finally recognized as such. I believe that's why there are so many homeless disfunctional vets wandering around the country, because they do not know to come in from the dark, and are distrustful of the government because of all the turmoil they've been through. And believe me, the dark is a deep void to be in. So, in ending, to receive a disability from the VA, you must submit the proper form from your respective personnel office to be considered for a disability. Of course, if you don't know about the form, because the discharge office did not tell you, you're screwed. Then you must request your medical records from St Louis, take them to the nearest VA office and apply for a disability.


----------



## HawkDriver (Mar 11, 2011)

Reading Rosebuds post reminded me of something I left out. If it weren't for our brothers that came before us(yous guys!) being treated the way you were, becoming fed up and creating lobbies and support organizations the VA would still be broke as it was for you when you came back from Vietnam.

So to all of you that walked the halls before me- THANK YOU!


----------



## lwllms (Jun 1, 2009)

Hawk,
Don't forget to thank Max Cleland, Vietnam vet, former head of the VA and former US Senator. He fought a lot of battles for veterans in Washington. Mostly I remember his legal aid and an old friend, Dean K. Phillips, who lost his battle with Agent Orange caused cancer and was a late addition to the Vietnam Veterans Memorial. It was Max, Dean and the rest of the VA staff that got the VA moving forward and improving things.


----------



## JollyGreen67 (Nov 1, 2010)

Jesse Brown was the first Secretary of the VA, when the position was created by the grace of Congress. Without his guidance, and steadfast commitment to all vets, we would probably still be in the dark ages. Max Cleland carried on the tradition of hammering the DOD/Congress, and if I remember right, he to was also fired for it. I'm not even going to mention all the anti-vet okole pukas who were, and still are, members of crongress who still oppose any funding for the VA.

And, I thank HawkDriver for the thanks to those of who stomped around in the halls to be heard. We are all in this together. Whenever I show my ID, and the person behind the counter says, "Thanks for your service", I get flustered, and (have to admit) embarrased by their comment. It has taken a long time to hear those kind words from anybody, and is a moving experience when it is heard. So, it is to all the vets who came after me/us who really deserve the words of "thank for your service". For, without them, we would still be wandering around in the darkness of despair.


----------



## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Rosebudjim - Jesse Brown was not the first secretary of the VA he was the second-

Ed Derwinski (Chicago Repub) was appointed in 1989 by Bush the Senior - Guess we need to thank god that the Republicans created a cabinet level secretary position for the VA
Ed was Army infantry from 44-46

That is not to say that Jesse wasn't great or not a fighter for VA benefits, rather this is not a case where only dems contribute in a positive light. Without the actions of the Repulican administration, there would never have been a Secretary of the VA Jesse Brown


----------



## JollyGreen67 (Nov 1, 2010)

I stand corrected. I seem (?) to remember it was the republicans who created the cabinet level. But, what I can't understand, is why all boorah from the right about the funding, when they appointed the position.


----------



## ShipWreck (Feb 16, 2008)

Mike….you were a SNIPE? Retired Engineman here. My wife complains to me all the time that I dont go down to the V.A. with my hearing loss. I keep telling her that it is selective…....no worries.


----------



## jeepturner (Oct 3, 2010)

All this talk of cutting medical benefits, by raising premiums remind me of every contract we have negotiated with out employer. Every contract the premiums go up and the choices go down as do the services. This can be attributed to one thing and that is the business of making money off of misery. When you are in the business of providing insurance for health care with the eye on continued profit growth, you must squeeze the doctors, nurses, hospitals and clinics or increase the suffering of those who pay the premiums.
This could all end in very little time, with a single payer system. The VA is a government ran health care system, and by every objective publication, a top of the line system. We need to join the rest of the developed world and mandate health care for all. Health care for every citizen, and especially those who have given a part of themselves in service to the many. 
We need to pull together as a people and stop letting ignorance separate us. 
I do not support increasing retires premiums. I think that medical should be paid out of a pool that insures that the least of us is treated, in their time of need like we would have our selves treated. There was a man who lived many years ago who stated something very similar.
We are all created equal and we will all surely die equal, and the only thing we will be measured by is how we treated each other while alive.


----------



## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Shipwreck,
I have the opposite problem… SHE tells me that my hearing loss is "selective" and not caused by sitting in front of the electrical control station between the two screws and the steam turbines (AOR5).

CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW? *;-)*

Former electrician's mate here… EM2.


----------



## BobM001 (Jan 8, 2012)

Hey Mike! Check this out! USS Wabash print by Ian Hall. Hell, this ship was "NEW". My first ship DD-882 was built in '45. My last, DD-697 was built in '44. I got out as a MM2 in "A" Div(AC/R) but stood underway evap watch in B-2, sitting right next to #1 SSTG. I have a touch of tinnitis in my left ear. But it's from LOUD music being the sound man for a rock band. Goose hunting didn't help either.


----------



## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Nice print. Last April 2011, I went to the USS Wabash 40th Anniversary Reunion in, where else, Wabash Indiana the home of the Wabash Cannonball. Had a great time and partied with shipmates (half a dozen of use from the same division including my old Chief and EM1) I had not seen in over 38 years. I made the trip from Texas on my Harley and enjoyed every minute of it.

RE: the old Destroyers,... Earlier I had been stationed on DD717 USS Chandler and DD727 USS DeHaven, so I understand those old FRAM jobs and their early WWII history. I still remember being exposed to all that asbestos crawling around stringing new electrical cable and the like. And of course THAT exposure was never documented either (still got my fingers crossed for good health). Sure do remember standing on the aft end as we were kicking up those old rooster-tails at 35-knots… also remember leaving the after engine room electrical watch at midnight and being very appreciative of the glowing green algae along side of the ship because there were just two wires that stopped you from going overboard and it was too dark to see that far from land. I had to count the number of hand cable stanchions in order to get to the aft berthing area hatch to catch some zzz's.


----------

