# "Theft of Intellectual Property"



## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

Well, not really.. but have you ever presented a unique idea, a clever project, a useful item, and before you know it, everyone is producing the same item? 
I ask, because of bad experiences I had, producing short runs of reproduction antiques and wooden craft-wares for a gift shop with a high-end tourist clientele. Very often, the proprietor would be approached by other woodworkers with an offer to produce my designs at a cheaper per-unit cost, once the items proved to be a consistent seller. This was annoying, as my work was often placed on consignment,and the marketability was proven at my own expense.
I'd like to hear from other woodworkers, their experiences with their unique products and ideas getting 'borrowed" by others..


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## Woodchuck1957 (Feb 4, 2008)

Thats one of the big problems with woodworking, theres allways someone out there willing to cut your throat, even if it means cutting their own. Maybe some kind of contract would be in order for situations such as yours Kat.


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## lew (Feb 13, 2008)

Not with a project, but being resourceful (spelled cheap) and a scuba driver I used a scuba tank with and adapted regulator for my air tools. I didn't need to buy a small compressor and the rig was completely protable. Now I see the idea marketed using a paint ball gun tank.

Story of my life- a day late and a dollar short.


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## motthunter (Dec 31, 2007)

people will always copy. even manufacturers get into this loop. I have seen foreigners buy a chair, cut it up to fit in a suitcase and take it home to use as a model.


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## jeffthewoodwacker (Dec 26, 2007)

If you develop a following for your work and produce high quality pieces you will find that galleries and gift shops will not let someone undercut you. I had a gift shop that told me that someone else could sell them the same pieces at a lower cost. After I pulled my other pieces out of the gift shop the owner found that while he could get the same items cheaper he was also getting a lower quality good. Clients who had seen my work asked for it and wouldn't accept the other persons "knockoffs". When I was asked to bring items back to the shop I refused.


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## RyanShervill (Dec 18, 2007)

To truly "make it" in woodworking, you need to get people buying your name, not neccesarily your products. I can't really explain it better than that, but someone can/will always copy great pieces, but the value should come from the maker. Sure, there are other painters that can reproduce a painting or a style of it, but only the original artist is sought after by the clients that matter.

Ryan


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## Woodchuck1957 (Feb 4, 2008)

Good for you Jeff, we need more woodworkers like yourself that stick to their guns.


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## naperville (Jan 28, 2008)

Are we all not guilty here? Realy. Well maybe not in deed, but I sure as heck think so in thought. Any time we look through a woodworking magazine, do we not try to learn something and apply it to our own projects? I cannot speak for everyone, but a lot of my tricks I incorporated into some projects came from others and I have never cut them a check. We each are a culmination of experiences and influences and how we adapt them is our own choosing. Has anyone here made a dead on copy of something? Perhapse a Morris chair or a Green & Green sideboard? I know I'm 100% guilty of being in possession of a Shaker table that was built here in the shadow of Chicago.
I know it is frustrating to find others copying your work and if it is truly your own work and you had no help or inspiration in its creation, then you have every right to be upset… to a point. If they did not like it, they would not copy it. And,... If you build it better than they do, the people will find you…


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## Woodchuck1957 (Feb 4, 2008)

Thats true to a point Tom, but I've never went into a gift shop or consignment and tried to undercut someone elses work.


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## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

Well it is that mindset that keeps woodworking in the low wage category. I see it in kitchen cabinets all the time. Survival prices…if I had to go out and do bids I'd go broke. I work only because of a reputation for good work at affordable prices, but it is not enough to get ahead on. No retirement, healthcare, or vacations.


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## TheKiltedWoodworker (Dec 21, 2006)

Sorry… did you say you were making "reproduction antiques" and someone copied you?

How dare they!

If your pieces were of better quality, and thus deserving of a higher price, then point that out to the customer. If they're still willing to pay less for lesser goods, then there isn't much you can do about that but find a new customer. Pretty soon people will stop buying the junk and your old customer will be left holding a bunch of cheap product.

Don't sacrifice quantity or cheaper cost for quality. Well, you can if you want. I won't, though. I know what my time and design skills are worth and that's what I'll charge.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

Thanks for all your responses! It's reassuring to know that I am not the only one experiencing this problem. Yup, after posting this, I knew that 'reproduction' thing might bite me, but I had to pare down the original post to make it more readable. One of the hit items I produced for that tourist shop was a so-called sheet-music cabinet, often placed next to the piano in the parlor. I sold the proprietor the original item which I refinished, which she used as a prop for some hand-crafted merchandise. Everyone wanted to buy that cabinet, so I made 12 similar in various woods and finishes and internal configurations,, and consigned them. Within a week she wanted 12 more! and then…no more orders. Then, I saw them elsewhere, some that looked just like mine only not as nice. Then I saw 'my' cabinets in her shop, made by someone else.
Hey, even Thomas Moser, a high-end shop in coastal Maine, once published a book about their products, complete with blueprints, and successfully sued furniture manufacturers who faithfully copied those same plans…
The lesson I learned from all of this is, as many of you pointed out, that I must live on my reputation. I am now trying to source out some parts for a helical lathe I am building, which will produce some whimsical barley-twist furniture and objets d'art which will NOT be easily duplicated by indiscriminate copy-catters. Living in Manitoba now, I have to re-orient myself to a different type of market and buying habits than what I knew in Maine.


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## Woodchuck1957 (Feb 4, 2008)

Dennis is absolutely right. And I don't see it getting any better any time soon.


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## CaptnA (Dec 17, 2007)

Interesting. I think so much of this is perception. I know some "people will steal your left hand if your right is busy holding your wallet. " 
Is there truly an 'original' idea left? This comes up in music so often I'm not sure how every singer isn't constantly in court. 
Like Lew's comment on using a scuba tank. For over 30 years we've used the compressed air tanks for our airpacks to power air tools. I know it wasn't new when I started using it in 1974. No idea who actually came up with the idea that it would work. Very little difference in SCUBA and SCBA for fire service. My son's friend who owns a paint ball place uses an old SCBA bottle on their 'tank' to power their paintball machine gun. He never saw one, he found one at a sale and figured out how to make it work.
My wife makes jewelry. She doesn't copy others work - BUT she DOES look at fashion to see what styles might work with what the fashion people say will be selling. Is this wrong? And I guess when she was first learning she DID try to copy what she saw to learn how to make her own work. But she didn't sell those.
Hard questions with no clear answers. 
Trends vs copies ? I'm not smart enough to say. 
Poor copy vs MY TAKE on something?? 
We see what we like and what will fit into our styles or skill levels I think. 
To copy someone else's work and undercut prices - that's just wrong and I think we'd have a hard time arguing that point. Maybe the store owner who is now selling 'virtually' the same thing with a higher profit margin might try…
I know that I have no name and no reputation. Probably never will. I enjoy turning bowls. At what point is a bowl my own and not just a copy of a rounded piece of wood influenced by someone else? 
I think at times its easy to see what's W R O N G - but at what point can we say what is right?


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## itsme_timd (Nov 29, 2007)

There was another thread going here about copying work and whether or not that was OK. This situation takes it to a different level.

Like someone else pointed out - we're all copycats here, to an extent. If we didn't want to find new ideas (and maybe share some of our own) we wouldn't be on LJ at all and we definitely wouldn't post project pics! However I think most of us will copy certain elements, blend elements from different pieces and add our own touch to that. But, what you've described doesn't seem right at all. Hopefully most of us will operate with a certain code of ethics and of course some will not.

I've faced a similar situation in my business, I own a contract staffing company and I've had my competitors go on sites and recruit my techs and try to get names from them of my clients! They'll hand out hats or pens, maybe bring some donuts to the guys and tell them they can pay them a $2-$3 more and hour. Of course they can!!! *I* spent the time and money to recruit, screen, reference, etc. Just like in woodworking, we are selling our name. We might not grow as fast as some of the other guys, but the clients we do have know us for our quality and integrity. We're not the cheapest service, but quality isn't cheap.

In my work, I sign agreements with some of my clients that states they can't hireour people - directly or indirectly - for 1 year from the time we submit them. Perhaps something along these lines could work for you? When a potential client balks at this I explain to them the investment we put into *them* in finding the right people and delivering a superior product.


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## Dadoo (Jun 23, 2007)

Imitation may be the sincerest form of flattery, but in this case, you're being undermined by the competition. Quality is where it's at, but that doesn't explain why we buy so much crap from China! It's all about saving a buck.

Could it be possible that supply does not meet the demand? Maybe you should talk to the storekeeper too. Remember that he/she has competition as well. You could take your business there. Or actually, you should!


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## USCJeff (Apr 6, 2007)

Someone posted an Einstein quote a few days ago, "A true genious is one who has learned to hide his sources". While this might not be the best motto in my mind, it is kind of funny considering the source.

My thoughts are that competition is what fuels any given market. Are there flaws in patent and copyright laws? Depends on who you're asking. I doubt a company like Phizer was not too thrilled when their unrenewable medical patent ended and every drug maker in the world produces a "Blue pill" knock off. Just watch a few commercials! I believe that a TRULY unique idea should get some protection. In woodworking, this is tough. How many truly unique ideas are there. Changing an existing idea (even somewhat drastically) does not really warrant ownership, I think. Then again, I've never tried selling something to have it copied. Maybe its perspective. Good reading on this thread though.


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## Karson (May 9, 2006)

A great thread. I think that authors post their plans with the assumption the we as woodworkers are going to make them. But they are right to start suing if a Mfg started to sell the items in stores everywhere.


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

I think your &^%$ out of luck….............what piece of furniture built when? wasnt some what copied from another?

China is a fine example….........I hear they dont even respect patent laws, Kinda doubt they bought Microsoft rather stole it.

My drawing and designs clearly state on the bottom that it is my property and cannot be copied or used without being paid for and or…...........blah blah blah


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## DannyBoy (Oct 26, 2007)

After reading through this it seems like the real problem isn't the copier but rather the gift shop. I can understand issues of competitiveness and supply v. demand, but what they did was rather low-brow.

Legally speaking, unless you have a contract I wouldn't think there is much you can do. Practically, a legal action may cost you more than its worth (and no, I'm not talking cost in money there).

From what I understand it seems like you had an underlying understanding and trust about how the transactions were to take place. What the shop owner did was break that trust. If it where me, and I wasn't relying on this one "customer" for my business, I would walk away from them. If it is a supply problem, they may come back to you and you can negotiate a written contract at that point. If it is simply them being a royal snot about their business dealings, then you are better off for not being in business with them.

~DB


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## jcees (Dec 31, 2007)

Okay, I have a couple of opposing "takes" on the notion of copies and original sin… er… uhh… creation. First off, in my years as a graphic designer and photographer I have always been keenly aware of copyright infringement and work-for-hire issues that crop up frequently. If I am to judge the original post I say, "So what?" You got punked by a client looking to e-x-t-e-n--d their profit margin. How dare they?

I mean, you were admittedly fabricating a copy, though doing it very well, and now you're upset that some schmuck undercut your work with decidedly inferior work. Well, the next time you're in my neck of the woods, I'll buy the first round and you can stare in wide-eyed wonder as I relate the times I've been undercut by lesser men and why I'm still around while they've taken up selling used cars. It is a forgone conclusion that a seller will always try to squeeze a tad bit more from any given margin. Don't you? The fact that you got "gamed" and take umbrage comes off as whiny-arsed and a bit self serving. Sorry.

Better to take the high road and follow the way of the old artisan that was asked how he felt about others making copies of his wares, undercutting his sales and flooding the market with inferior work. His reply went something like this, "If I do my work well and honestly and long enough, perhaps people will notice the difference and I will be redeemed by their understanding." I think that is the philosophy that Sam Maloof lives by.

Now, obviously you can't patent a piece of furniture unless it equates to a genuinely unique and innovative way to support your backside, but you can copyright an original design of a chair which affords you certain protections and a course for redress, *but *only against a mass producer. That's why Maloof is sanguine about copies. He counts it as a complement that an individual woodworker would suffer the process of making a decent copy of his work. He knows that he has built a following and that the signed originals with verifiable provenance will always be his. All others will always be mere copies.

The rule-of-thumb is this; if you "create" something of your own accord [design] then you have a copyrightable and defendable entity. If you perform the same work on someone else's design then it's work-for-hire and your only recourse is the deal you make with your client. Sorry for the tough love. Hope all this helps. Good luck.

always,
J.C.


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## GaryK (Jun 25, 2007)

Kind of makes me glad I'm not trying to make any money off of woodworking.


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## cpt_hammer (Dec 18, 2007)

I've actually been listening to an audio book recently titled "The Flat World" by Thomas Friedman and it is very interesting to hear his discussion on the topic of intellectual property. In this day and age where almost all information is readily available almost anyone can produce another item after a little research (not every country follows IP). Within the past few years as China has opened up trade, because it has such a low rate and such a large volume labor force as well as a high education system, it is going to be harder and harder for Americans to keep pace with those markets. But, for every job outsourced to other countries, in turn, three to four times the job opportunities open up in the country that is doing the outsourcing. This is because it takes the labor intensive processes away from the producer to focus on areas where they can be more productive.

His basis is simply this. If someone can make it cheaper and better than you, then economically they will win. However, if we can provide either very specialized service then it is less likely to be outsourced and in turn it will spawn other specialties. For woodworkers, it means that your product can be produced cheaper somewhere else. But the value you add, is your design and craftsmanship. If you design a great dining room set, you are better off having a manufacturer outsource the production of it. But if a manufacturer produces it, he will attempt to make it cheaper through cheaper materials, construction and labor. While you as a woodworker is more likely to use high quality materials, use better construction methods, and retain a higher labor rate.

Woodworking in my opinion has turned into 2 types of markets. Low-rate, low-quality, cheap to produce products like many of the things you get at Walmart (altought it is getting better) and high-rate, high-quality, costly products that tend to serve a more prosperous consumer. While some of this on this website are only hobbyist and some are professionals. You may have noticed that the professionals tend to serve those high quality products to mostly wealthy clients. While hobbyists like myself tend to make items (in hopes) of high quality at a "cheaper" cost.

In the end, we all enjoy woodworking and even though it is harder and harder to make a living doing it, there are ways that you can continue to thrive with or without the actual labor of production. Of course, to me that takes the fun out of it too.


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## joey (Sep 17, 2007)

I think its a matter of ethics on the store owners part. I think if they are allowing someone else to copy your work whether or not it is a reproduction and selling it to them at a cheaper price so they can pad their profit margin, I personality feel they are being unethical in their business practices. I have placed pieces in shops before and they have insisted that I not sell to there competition in a 50 mile area and that I do not sell the same pieces out of my shop retail below what they are asking for the same in their stores. The reason for this the said it would be unethical and unfair business practices if I did.

I have had this happen as a subcontractor many times, and in the end they get what they pay for. I really believe if you do good work people will notice and soon you'll be hired for your name not your work.

Actions like that will catch up to the shop owners in the end, and the woodwork who is coping your work at a cheaper price he sounds like hes doing that because hes desperate, and it sounds like his business is on a downhill slide and hes just trying to stay afloat. Its discouraging and frustrating, but keep doing good work, warn all your friends about that shop and hopefully everyone will learn from their mistakes

Good luck Joey


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## slwhiteside (Oct 1, 2007)

One thought comes to mind while reading through this thread - if you produce something that you are proud of and willing to stand behind it then make sure you sign it!!! Leave no doubt that you produced the work. It is bound to be a key factor in developing a following.

I also think most of the people that create a following would be considered more than just woodworkers - they are artisans. Through quality of craftsmanship and/or use of material they have created object of note - even though it might look like every other Windsor chair ever made. Again, as "artists" you should sign your work - just like the painters and sculptors.

At some point (hopefully) that signature will be worth much more than all the labor and material that is put into a new piece of work.

Now a question - would a trademarked signature give pause to anyone considering creating a knockoff?

- Chipper (who is hoping to be more than a sawdust maker one day)


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## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)

I had a goofus on ebay buy one of my clay tiles. You know the one's that I make from my woodcarvings.

What did he do ?

He bought the tile and made his own plaster mold from it. Made his tiles from the mold. Fired it etc and then Framed and listed it as his own work on ebay.

When I confronted him, he of course denied it, saying he carved it himself etc, but when I pointed out that the tile was 10 percent smaller then my original piece and I knew exactly how he made it he dared me to do anything about it.

I looked up copyright protection on the internet, did a bit of research and wrote him a legal letter telling him to knock-it-off or I would sue him silly.

He pulled the auction and quit doing it.

His name is Fritz. I know where he lives. Still have his address and the letter … just in case.

this is the tile design he copied:










​


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## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

Good for you!


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

I am really glad that there are so many like-minded people here, who contributed their own stories in a way that reassured me that they knew exactly what I was talking about. It's true, what we do is certainly a composite of all the ideas that came before us, though I was particularly ranting about how the niches I sought to fill in the upscale tourist gift shops were the product of my own prototypes, marketing at my own expense, only to see the more successful of my ideas get farmed out to the undercutters… As a side note, even more curious was this particular gallery owner who bemoaned how other shops would undercut HER with knock-offs… as she shopped around for people who could do my work cheaper! 
Thanks, all for some great responses and sharing your experiences!


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## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

one line of thinking that I'm pulling from this is: promote your quality so people will know why your products are worth what is being asked… people can then choose cheap and cheap or more expensive and higher quality.


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## jimp (Feb 7, 2008)

Dan - I'm glad to hear that you were able to stop this goofus from copying and selling *YOUR* work. If you don't mind me asking, was this piece of work copyrighted? If it was, how did you get it copyrighted and how much did it cost? I've always been curious how a woodworker could get his work (table, chair, etc..) copyrighted. Thanks!!


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## davidtheboxmaker (Dec 25, 2007)

I agree that the store keeper is the main offender in this case. Drop any customer that does this to you. They give you no loyalty and you owe them the same.
Regarding most woodworking, I doubt that there is very much than can be called original in this field. Most items we make are in a style, and somebody, somewhere has already made something very close to our latest piece. Even as a business (I'm a hobby LJ, that sell his work) the cost of pursuing a legal claim just makes it not worthwhile.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

*It's kind of hard for me and probably many others when you prefer to be a shop rat and leave the front-man duties to someone else. This is why I realized that 'niche marketing' by developing a good relationship with a craft shop owner would be a good fit for me. I just hadn't anticipated that, once my original hit-or-miss collection of craftwares and rustic furniture began gathering momentum, that others would wait and see the results of my self-financed test-marketing then try to take over the more successful and/or profitable work for themselves. And try to market 'my' stuff to the same consignors, yet!*


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## leonmcd (Jul 12, 2007)

Seems to me that the store keeper problem is that you have the wrong product for THAT store. The store keeper is NOT really interested in quality. He just wants to make the most profit he can. If he can cut his cost and get the same price (his customers don't recognize quality) he will do it everytime.

Having said this, I think I'd be upset too. The question is how to react.


Keep your quality and move to another market that appreciates your work
Keep your quality but improve your productivity so that you can be competive in this market
Reduce your quality so you can lower your price and stay in this market. I think that most people that produce quality would have a hard time doing this.

It's your decision.


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