# HOA & Noise Complaint



## Lonestar_78 (Dec 12, 2011)

I am hoping this is the right place to start a topic like this, but if not, I apologize.

I am reaching out to any law knowledgable people and/or anyone with first hand experience in this.

I live in a neighborhood. I work out of my garage and unfortunately, my neighborhood is in a deed restricted community. I have been woodworking about 12-18 months, now, I guess. I do it nearly every day. I have never had anyone physically and come complain about the noise. I am generally respectful when it comes to when I operate the machinery. I don't do it before 8-9 am (usually on the weekends) and I won't run it too late (after 8 pm) as I have two small children of my own.

About three weeks ago, I was out of the country on business and my wife called me and told me we had got a complaint letter from the HOA. It basically said that the noise level from my machinary was getting bothersome and perhaps if I could not work in my garage every day and only on the weekends. Obviously that's not going to happen. So, when i got home, I blew it off and just thought maybe I had started working too early or worked too late.

I have been home about 2 weeks, now and today I got another letter. It quoted something from the deed restrictions that say something along the lines of "no noxious activity", blah, blah, blah. So, since I was definitely aware of the times I have started my machinery in the past two weeks, it's starting to sound like this person that is complaining is just complaining in general about the machines.

So, what do I do? I mean, besides, move…haha. We are actually planning on moving in about 4-6 months, but I don't want to stop woodworking for the next 6 months, all together. I have been reading and it sounds like enoforcing this "noxious activity" claim is difficult when it comes to noise because it may be annoying to one, but not to others. But, on the other hand, I don't want to take that chance and continue ignoring the letters. I doubt there is a chance they will tell me who it is that is complaining so I could speak to them and further understand what it is exactly they don't like…

So, just hoping to find a little guidance here. Any input or experience you might have would be greatly appreciated! Afterall, it is almost Christmas and it is sort of difficult for me to create gifts without my tools…haha. I don't have the time or knowledge to do them by hand.

Thanks in advance,

Chris

*EDIT* Two things…first, I am so sorry this got so long winded.

Second, this is the exact verbiage from the deed restrictions the HOA management company quoted in the letter:

"Section 6. Prohibition of offensive activities. No
activity, whether for profit or not, shall be carried on on any
Lot which is not related to single family residential purposes.
No noxious or offensive activity of any sort shall be permitted
nor shall anything be done on any Lot which may be, or may
become, an annoyance or a nuisance to the neighborhood. This
restriction is waived in regard to the normal sales activities
required to sell homes in the subdivision and the lighting
effects utilized to display the model homes."


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## live4ever (Feb 27, 2010)

Chris,

I don't have any legal advice, but I can certainly empathize with your dilemma.

The first thing I'd recommend doing is to understand which of your machines are the biggest offenders. This may take a helper, but try to figure out which operations make the most noise or the most annoying sounds AT THE STREET. It's easy for us to think we know which tools are the loudest, but sometimes those aren't necessarily the ones that are most bothersome at a distance. If you have a helper put load on some of your tools, you can hear them from a neighborly distance and see how bad it is for yourself.

If you hear it for yourself and decide the noise complaints are reasonable (i.e., there's actually a decent amount of noise that is getting to your neighbors), then you have a few choices:

1) Do nothing. Obviously, this is risky. Angry neighbors and angry HOAs can make your life difficult.

2) Invest in serious soundproofing for your garage. This is obviously easier for some garages than others. It might be as simple as adding an additional layer of drywall and some insulation, or using a more expensive product like Quietrock. Add a layer of insulation to your garage door if you don't have some there already. Caulk and seal any areas where sound might be escaping. Don't open the garage door when you work.

3) Invest in quieting your tools. Focus on the tools you use most. Sure, some tools you can't really make that much quieter (e.g. the tablesaw). But upgrading a benchtop planer to a stationary might get you a better machine AND a quieter machine. There are quieter shopvacs (e.g. Fein and Festool). Obviously you can't go and replace/upgrade all your tools, but perhaps sound levels will have to be a factor when making purchasing decisions (it is for me for similar reasons).

4) Shift operations to quieter machines. For example, ripping on the bandsaw instead of the TS when you can. Avoiding noisy circular and miter saws as much as possible.

If you make even mild efforts at #2, 3, and 4, at least you can point that out to the HOA or the people who are complaining if push comes to shove. If your noise was bothering me, I'd be at least somewhat comforted that you cared and made as much effort as you could to mitigate the issue.


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

I'd get a decibel meter and have somebody monitor noise levels from the street at various tasks with various tools.

That will give you objective measurements as well as a defense should the HOA complaints continue.

I'd also find out who the higher-ups are in the HOA and see if any of them live by you. I would approach them personally and call them a coward for not investigating it face to face. I would then send my kids out to fork their lawn. 

I'd also consider approaching a lawyer about the issue to see if some sort of cease and desist order can be issued…mental stress, and all that.

But mostly I would respond to the HOA letting them know that steps have been taken to reduce the noise (even if you didn't), showing them the decibel data, as well as highlighting the fact that weekends are when most people are in their homes, not weekdays. This is probably all they need to hear. HOA leaders have little man's syndrome and this is their opportunity to play God for a while. They just want you to respond, recognizing their authoriTAH.

After that, since you are moving anyway, I'd likely blow them off.


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## casual1carpenter (Aug 16, 2011)

Chris, I'm confused by the fact that I think that you are saying you have been woodworking in your garage for 12 to 18 months. Now all of a sudden you are getting noise complaint notices? Did something change? Did you put on new equipment or begin using some tools more frequently? You mentioned a wife and children, they may be a bit biased but do they notice a lot of noise? I peeked at your profile, your kind of far south even for texas, lol, could the change of season and turning off the air conditioners be an issue? Do you have a right to face your accuser? There could be a valid reason that could be easily reminded. I used to work shift work at times and the worlds morning was the middle of my night. It's just my thought that who ever is filing the complaints ought to be able to give valid reasons if not to your face then through the people they are complaining to.


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## Gshepherd (May 16, 2012)

Cosmic thinks a lot like me….. I have had major run in with HOA and it was over pity crap…. I went and spoke to the president at his house and he was a total arse….. Got fined 25 per day for violations…. Pity b.s. stuff…

Rumor has it several weeks later a couple of suits made the visit to the President at his house had some coffee and everything settled down quite a bit…. Just a rumor though….. 3 weeks later I got a notice that the fines would be waived. So it must have been some City stuff that settled them down a bit…..


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## JesseTutt (Aug 15, 2012)

Chris,

First I am not a lawyer and cannot give you legal advice. That said, here is how I would proceed if I was in your place.

First, find copies of your HOA agreement, deed, and any other related documents. Read and try to understand them. Most states have something about a contract having to be readable and understandable by a "reasonable person" to be enforceable.

Start documenting your woodworking activities. Day and time started, and time stopped. Look at moving your start time till latter in the morning, say after 9 a.m. on weekdays and after 10 on weekends. Stop earlier. Document this. This will show that you are attempting to be compliant. If you by chance have an alarm, see if you can put the workshop on a separate zone. Always turn the alarm on when you are not in the shop and have the alarm company keep a record of when you activate and deactivate the alarm.

Find a company that has a sound meter and have them take sound readings inside and outside of your shop while you are doing woodworking. Have them take sound readings at the edge of your property. At best you should receive a written report of when, where the measurements were taken and the sound level. Ask that the report specify the device used to take the sound level (Make and model), how (calibration method) and when it was calibrated. Make sure that this company is qualified to do these measurements and that the person actually doing the measurements is also certified to make those measurements. Get a list of the person's certification(s). Get a written bill from them and pay it by check.

Write the Home Owners Association a letter acknowledging their previous letters and ask for clarification. You may want to tell them that pending clarification you are disputing their claims (but nicely). You want them to provide specifics (examples of when and how you are supposed to violate the agreement and what sections you have violated). The section you quoted appears to be extremely vague. The absolute best would be for them to specifically list when and what you did wrong. If you can prove that you were not woodworking at that time then you can raise doubt with the "trier of fact" (judge or jury) and they may discount (doubt) the times where you were actually woodworking. Personally, I would ask someone (not a family member) to proofread the letter, then you sign it in their presence, put it in an envelop and both of you take it to the post office and pay the postal clerk for postage getting a receipt. Get the name of the postal clerk. Do not explain why you want someone to help you with this. This begs the question of whether it should be sent "Certified Return Receipt". If you do then you have additional proof that you sent it and that they received it. On the negative side it could appear more threatening or confrontational, and at this point you still want it to (appear) to be friendly.

Contact an attorney. You want to find one that specializes in this kind of law. It could be Contract Law or Real Estate law. (I don't recall ever hearing of a specialization in Home Owner Association law.) Verify that they don't have any conflicts of interest (present or past work for the HOA, the management company, or any members of the homeowners' board). It is harder to find out the attorney's win / loss percentage. (Even if they specialize in the correct area, don't have any conflicts of interest, if they lose most of their cases you don't want them.)

A good attorney will tell you not to discuss your case with *anyone*. I don't think that an attorney can say this enough.

The more work you can do the less the attorney has to do so the cost will be less. Also, you want to establish (and document) as many facts as possible before the conflict becomes confrontational.

If you have fixed plans to move in 6 months, you might be able to drag out the letter / response for that long.

I recall reading something about a case that occurred somewhere in the Northeast. The conclusion was that only people within two houses around yours had "legal standing" to file suit or file a (valid) complaint with the city. This did not have anything to do with a HOA. You might see if you can get your neighbors to make public declarations (not answers to your questions) before (complenant non family) witnesses that they don't have a problem with your woodworking or the times you do it. Make sure that the witnesses to these comments remember (and are willing to testify) them.

Again, I am not a lawyer so I cannot give legal advice. Yeks, I think I wrote a longer answer than you question.

Good luck.


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## dingotx1 (Jul 10, 2011)

We had the same thing happen to us in a gated community in San Antonio, no-one ever came and said anything to us personally but the letters just kept coming. We found that the cheap foam insulation board cut to fit perfectly on the inside surface of the garage doors considerably decreased the noise audible from outside. It had the added bonus of keeping the workshop cooler/warmer to work in and wasn't too heavy for the doors to cope with.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

Yeah, insulate the garage doors and keep them shut. Also make nice with your immediate neighbors… build them some nice gifts. Before going to war just remember this is what you wanted, you chose this. I made the same mistake once and then got a nasty letter for doing car maintenance in my driveway that took ONE evening, never again.


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

Things like this is why I will never live in a HOA again. I did in Las Vegas and it sucked. Everyone that can, will whine about something.
I read somewhere(maybe here??) some guy was working at 10:30 on Sunday morning and his neighbor came over and asked if he would quit….his KIDS WERE STILL IN BED!
I'd get the deibel meter readings and then approach the HOA for a definitive answer on what constitutes
"offensive activities" as far as noise goes. As soon as you find out who is complaining discuss it with them. Of course you have the ones that don't want to listen to you. Then you complain their car is noisy and let them prove it isn't.


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## Lonestar_78 (Dec 12, 2011)

Thank you all for your responses. It sounds like most of what you all are saying are comperable to my thoughts, as well.

My wife has also suggesting working with the garage door down. I will likely test this this afternoon and see if it makes a large difference. If the difference is neglegible, I would rather have the door up, since I have a small garage. But, if it is significant, I can completely get behind shutting the door to run the tools. I mean, it's not like any of us (usually) turn on a tool and just leave it running for more than a few minutes at a time. So, shutting the door during the machine usage wouldn't be that big of a deal.

This is the first time in 18 months that anyone has complained, which is what makes this all the more confusing. I guess I should try to look at who is "new" to the neighborhood, perhaps it's someone that has moved in within the past few months. The first letter stated that the person complaining stated that they were "patient", thinking the noise would eventually stop, assuming I was working on a project that was taking me a few weeks…

I will keep you all posted. I am pretty furious about this and am trying not to respond out of emotion…which is why it's very theraputic to get on here and gain perspective from all of you!

Again, thank you all.

Chris

I have started researching companies to take noise level measurements. So far, haven't found much.

I plan on responding to the HOA, as I have literally no information/specifics on the particular offenses. Like I said, in the past two weeks since I have been back from Israel, I have been very aware of when I was running machines. But getting this second letter proves that the "offended" person just doesn't like the sounds, at all, no mater the time of day.

I was thinking about going to the four closest neighbors this afternoon, which I know all of them, and talking to them to find out if any of this were them. I ultimately expect them all to say no, as at least 2 of the 4 have brought stuff over for me to fix. The other two I am friendly with, so would assume they would have come over themselves if they had a problem. With that said, one of the four is sort of a grumpy guy. He is nice enough, but very stand offish, and always has a scowl on his face. So, the problem with this is I am not sure what I exactly I would say if one of them did say it was them. If it wasn't them, then as someone commented above, I feel that no one else would have the right to complain as the noise level beyond these four houses would be minimal.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

Remember what happened to Beener… http://lumberjocks.com/topics/37402
I'd rather live in a cardboard box on a downtown sidewalk than struggle under the oppression of neighborhood associations.


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## Milo (Apr 24, 2009)

Hey Chris,

Remember, your not cutting/routing/jointing/planing wood 24/7. Usually your cutting in set period of time. All the other time your doing much quieter work!

I'm betting careful planning and some sound insulation in your garage will cover a multitude of "sins" for your neighbors.

We all have the A-hole neighbor that doesn't have the Kahunas to talk to you face to face. I have 2! Ones on the board. Dried up old cuss. oops, I wander….

ANYWAY, They can't keep you from woodworking if you plan properly. Good luck!


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## lumberjoe (Mar 30, 2012)

Milo makes a good point. I don't live in a deed restricted area and we don't have an HOA, but I've had the cops come a few times for noise complaints. Both times were in the afternoon on a weekend and the cops were really cool about it and were more interested in what I was doing than telling me to knock it off. I've found some activities are much louder than others - plaining and routing for example. I have the luxury of working form home and a flexible schedule. Time permitting, I try to do all the really noisy stuff during normal business hours where most of (and the annoying complainer) neighbors are at work.

To play devils advocate, I know it's your house and you want to do what you like to do, but you still need to be a responsible and considerate neighbor. As an example - a few years ago before we moved, my wife worked 3rd shift on weekends. We had a neighbor behind us that would sit out by the pool all day and BLAST classic rock stations. It was so loud and distracting, my wife could not sleep. I went over and explained the situation and asked him if he would mind keeping it down until about 3:30pm when she woke up. He agreed and did so without any hesitation.

I wonder if it is possible to use the HOA as a mediator and agree on a mutually agreeable time where you can go nuts and make some noise?


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

HOA's are in place to protect property values and provide added safety to a neighborhood. The concept isn't a bad thing. But like I said, you have people who use that as a channel for their own self-importance. If you demonstrate a willingness to work with them, you can usually work together towards a solution.

Then you can fork their lawn.


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## Ripthorn (Mar 24, 2010)

If you are working with the door up, definitely close it. It will make a very big difference. As for companies to take measurements, look into an acoustical consulting company, that is a large part of what they do. Sometimes they work as part of a larger engineering firm. I spent a good amount of time in the acoustics world, so I might be able to find someone in your area that is qualified. I'll take a quick look.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

As with everyone else, I have no legal advice. And if your only planning to live there a few more months, then its probably not worth a fight anyhow. But a few notes that may or may not be useful.

I've found as I get older, the noise in my shop bothers me. To combat that, I've turned to hand tools, and love using them. It may be a win-win situation. My closest neighbor is 1/2 mile away, and they are both farms, so I can make noise till the cows come home, literally.

The statement 
"No noxious or offensive activity of any sort shall be permitted
nor shall anything be done on any Lot which may be, or may
become, an annoyance or a nuisance to the neighborhood."

Struck me as kind of funny. So if you walk out to get your paper in your bathrobe, and your neighbor thinks its an annoyance or a nuisance, you've broken the code? Yea, right.

I also agree with the sound insulation. I'd say go to town with it, but if your only there a few more months its not worth the investment. Maybe hang a few insulating blankets over the garage doors for now.

Good luck.


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## TedW (May 6, 2012)

I can't offer any advice but I can relate in a big way. My makeshift work shop is in the basement of the 6-flat apartment building where I live, and the young couple living right above it have a baby. They are a nice couple.. I really like them a lot. However, they don't like the noise at any hour. They are moving soon, I think at the end of next month. Unfortunately, that's not soon enough. I wanted to make some nice boxes to give away as Christmas gifts, but my shop is rendered pretty much useless as long as they live above it. But what's most on my mind is who might move in to replace them. I hope it's somebody who works all day, but if it's another noise sensitive neighbor, I will have to move. My dream home includes a sound proof work space and no neighbors for at least 1/2 mile. I hope you find a fair compromise with your undisclosed, noise sensitive neighbor.


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## Lonestar_78 (Dec 12, 2011)

I think the biggest issue to me is there is no clear definition of the infraction and the offended party has not spoken to me directly. Surely there is a compromise, or a "time" that can be agreed on. I guess just not knowing any specifics is what's driving me mad.

I feel I am respectful, in the sense that I am not running the tools early or late. I am also not building a house or some other major project that requires hours of milling my wood. I have probably been a little more active lately because I am being paid to build to large toy boxes. But even at that, it's not like I am running tools for hours, or anything.

If someone came and told me they worked all night and there were specific times I needed to pay attention to, I would be all over it. Hopefully that's what comes out of this. Even though I don't want to stop working all together, I would much rather have to stop because someone is trying to sleep than just because a neighbor is upset with the noise at any time.


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## teejk (Jan 19, 2011)

I wonder if the Hatfield/McCoy thing started with a HOA?


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## RussellAP (Feb 21, 2012)

I'd just ignore it until I move. I'm lucky in that my next door neighbors are inconsiderate asses that have a pitbull that attacks out dog and we've gone to court over it and their lousy parking situation where they constantly use my driveway. There is no love lost and I open the garage doors as much as possible when I'm working loud tools.

If it bothered a neighbor that I liked, I'd just make them something to shut them up. Adirondack chairs work.


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## BinghamtonEd (Nov 30, 2011)

*I wonder if the Hatfield/McCoy thing started with a HOA?*

AHAHAHHAHA!

Hope everything works out for you, Chris. It's really annoying when someone has a problem and, rather than coming to talk to you about it like a decent person, they run and tell on you.

Reminds me of about 6 months ago my father-in-law had the guy in the house behind him (about 75 feet away) buy these 2 obnoxious dogs that would bark all day. Not a couple barks here an there, they just barked alllll day. We couldn't enjoy dinner outside on the porch anymore because of those stupid dogs,and the owner never made any effort to quiet them. My father in law, on his daily morning walk, saw the guy outside and spoke to him. He didn't yell at him, he just told him flat-out that his dog's are not allowed to bark all day (it's in the town code), and that he needed to do something about that, or he'd report it. The guy puffed up his chest and said "Oh, is that a threat?" and my father-in-law said "No, I'm just giving you the courtesy of letting you know ahead of time what the problem is, and giving you a chance to do something about it." The problem didn't get any better, and the guy actually started letting his dogs through the fence onto my in-laws' property to poop. My father-in-law made the call, as did a couple neighbors. Don't know anything else, but the problems have stopped.


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## Kreegan (Jul 10, 2012)

I suggest a liberal use of this product on the complainer's house:

http://www.amazon.com/Deerbusters-Wolf-Urine-Lure-32-oz/dp/B0006IGZSM/ref=pd_sim_lg_7

Don't buy a house with an HOA. Nothing like spending hundreds of thousands of dollars for the privilege of having some small-minded asshat try to tell you what to do with it.

On a more serious note, work with your garage door down. Look at some way to line your garage with a noise dampening material like foam or cork. Make sure none of your machines is in need of lubrication. Tighten all the screws and bolts. See if your motor brushes need replacement. Mebbe get a white noise generator. Use hand tools.

As far as identifying the person, I will guarantee you it's either an old person or a housewife. If you have new additions that meet those criteria, well you know where to use the product I recommended…

Rich


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## Lonestar_78 (Dec 12, 2011)

Haha, thanks, Rich.

I called the management company today. I was cordial, or at least, attempted to be.

She seemed to keep sticking to the point that if it's annoying someone (anyone, just one person, no matter where they live in relation to the noise), it has to stop. She said that the next step is to take it to an attorney. I asked to be put on the agenda for the next meeting, but that isn't until January.

My wife is a teacher (she is a stay at home mom, now) and worked with a lady that is on the board of the HOA. She seemed pretty blown away that anyone complained, as they live about 5 houses down from us. But, she did say to take it seriously and make the efforts to resolve the issue.

According to the lady I talked to at the management company, she basically said that after you get three letters for the same complaint, they send it to an attorney and you begin to accrue legal charges. I don't understand how anyone can impose this on someone. It's not like I am given the chance to even understand what exactly is bothering someone. Even if I make the effort to reduce the noise, what if that isn't enough? I mean, the person could still technically complain and I would still have to incur legal fees.


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## DonBroussard (Mar 27, 2012)

My wife and I live in a neighborhood with an HOA, and we are anxious to move to a non-HOA area. The HOA changed rules and restrictions without a vote of the residents, effectively changing the contract we had when we bought our property. I don't like to complain without trying to change things for the better, so I ran for a vacant Board position and was elected. I'm not very popular on the Board.

The OPs situation is complicated by having a management company administering the rules of the HOA. That way, the HOA can take an anonymous complaint and have the management company address and resolve the complaint. The HOA can legitimately say that they had nothing to do with the way the complaint is handled.

Hope things work out for you without getting ugly in the next 6 months.


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## oldworld124 (Mar 2, 2008)

This is why we will NEVER live in a community with CCRs. Too many Nazis to deal with.


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

As I see it, this is less a noise issue as it is a neighbor relations issue.

In Phoenix, the noise ordinance takes precedence with this type of thing. The HOA will respond to a complaint, but, first and foremost, you should attempt to resolve the issue with the neighbor.

The noise you are making may not be significant, but, if your immediate neighbor is a day-sleeper, it may be affecting his sleep.

Years ago, I worked nights and my neighbor used to keep his parrot outside on a patio just outside my bedroom window during the day. (It squawked a lot and it probably annoyed him inside the house.)
While it didn't bother most people, it made sleeping difficult for me.

I spent my wakeful days contemplating all the ways to covertly "do in" the bird.

I lucked out a couple weeks later when the guy's wife accidently washed some rags he had used to clean his motorcycle with gasoline and they exploded in the clothes dryer. (His utility room was off his patio where the bird was kept during the day.)
Aside from some property damage, the bird went deaf and never squawked again.

When I work in my garage, I always try to schedule my noisiest operations when I am fairly certain the neighbors aren't home or aren't having some get together in thier backyard. Courtesy is the name of the game and talking to your neighbors about what you're doing may go a long ways to an understanding.


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## Kreegan (Jul 10, 2012)

Time to get lawyered up. Talk to an attorney in your area that knows about HOAs and enforcing the rules. Most importantly, have your lawyer contact the HOA board. Make it clear that you're not screwing around. These types of people are bullies and will frequently stop if they think you'll fight back. The agreement in your HOA addendum sounds exceptionally loose and open to interpretation. I'm sure a lawyer can give you some more insight.

Don't forget the wolf piss option, though. ;-)

Rich


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

I'd go to the neighbor and let them know they are threatening your livelihood. 5 houses down is ridiculous.

Definitely do what you can to use your shop responsibly, but I'd certainly let those people know about it. You can do it nicely, perhaps quoting a little bit of the Bible (Matthew 18:15) to let them know you don't appreciate them going about it so cowardly.

I would do that even if I were moving next week. Such idiocy deserves to be confronted.

I would also consider a lawyer.


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## BinghamtonEd (Nov 30, 2011)

Jay, I think he was saying that the woman they know on the board lives 5 houses away, not the person that complained. To this point so far, I don't think they know who's complaining.

So how does a HOA work and/or come to be? Does some organization technically own all of the lots or something? What gives them the right to make you sign anything saying you'll live by their rules?

*She seemed to keep sticking to the point that if it's annoying someone (anyone, just one person, no matter where they live in relation to the noise), it has to stop. *

Can you file a formal complaint with the HOA stating that you find it annoying that there are people in your neighborhood that are acting like a bunch of whiny asshats? If you could find out who's complaining, you could stand outside their home and write down all the noises you hear, then file a bunch of complaints…"At 10:07 am, the resident sneezed, which I found annoying". "At 12:17 pm, I heard the resident straining to push out feces. Completely noxious."


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

Oh. Well crap then.


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## msmith1199 (Oct 24, 2012)

I haven't read through all of the replies so I apologize if this is a duplicate. I'm no lawyer, but I play one on TV. Okay not on TV, but I was a criminal investigator in a prosecutors office for many years so I do have some knowledge of the law and how these things work. I can tell you in a nut shell, if they want to fight you the odds are you are going to lose this one. Most HOA's as well as Cities prohibit this type of activity for this reason, somebody always complains. You say you woodwork almost everyday so I assume that means you do it for profit? If that's the case I can't imagine that you will even be able to find an HOA that allows that type of activity and any City in the Country likely bans manufacturing activity like this in a residential zone. That doesn't mean people don't do it, but when somebody complains is when the trouble starts. Even living out in the Country you may have troubles depending on how your land is zoned. I have a commerical shop in an industrial park and they made me jump through all kinds of hoops just to get approved.

You mention you are moving anyway. So one strategy is to just keep working and hope they can't get a court order or take some other type of enforcement action before then. Just remember I bet someplace in those HOA rules it will say you are also responsible to pay their legal costs and expenses when you violate the rules. So if they run up a few thousand bucks in legal expenses trying to stop you, you may me liable for those expenses even if you move.


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## Lonestar_78 (Dec 12, 2011)

I want to get to the courtesy thing. The problem for now is, I don't know who is complaining or what specifically their complaint is. I plan on talking to the neighbors, at least the immediate neghbors to see if it is any of them. If it is, I want to compromise with them. I mean, even if I had to work out a schedule of allowable times to work, etc. Maybe Mondays, Wednesdays and Saturdays, or something. I mean, I am not opposed to compromise, just don't know what the middle ground is, at this point.

I am researching lawyers, at the present, but would love to avoid that if I could just figure out exactly what the problem is. I am also looking into the execution of petitions, etc. I am not taking it laying down. I do empathyze with anyone that has a specific situation (i.e. work at night, sleep during day, etc). But, just want someone to be up front and explain what the issues are.

Unfortunately, in Texas, when you buy a house in an HOA, you do have to sign a form acknowledging receipt and agreement with the HOA laws, etc. I did advise the manager that their verbiage was extremely vague. According to their language in the bylaws, I could technically complain on someone mowing their grass at 8 am on a Saturday because it annoys me because that's the day I try to sleep past 8 am. Her rebuttle was that everyone has to have their yard mowed. I agreed, but told her not at 8 am on Saturday. She ultimately gave up arguing with me and put me on the agenda for the January HOA meeting…

Who knows, I am still fuming.


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## msmith1199 (Oct 24, 2012)

Okay now I've read through all the replies. Obviously we're all woodworkers here so we do have our predjudices toward woodworking. A loud woodworking machine is music to our ears while it may annoy others. But we do have to realize that residential areas are made for living in and not running a manufacturing business. It's one thing to do woodworking as a hobby, but you can't expect to be able to run a commercial woodworking shop in your garage with neighbors nearby.

And something else to clarify, everybody seems to be focusing on just the noise here because that is likely what the complaint was about. But as I pointed out above, the HOA can hang their hat on more than just noise. You just generally are not allowed to run this type of business out of a house in a residential neighborhood. And that's whether you are in a HOA or an incorporated City. Out in unincorporated areas you may have more leeway, but there will even be rules out there.

Even though I'm a woodworker, if my next door neighbor at my house opened a woodshop in his garage I may be complaining about it too. Of course I'd go to him first, but understand most neighbors won't do that. People just don't like to be confrontational. The complaining party could very well be your best friend. All of your neighbors will likely deny being the one that complained, but it may have even been all of them.


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## Lonestar_78 (Dec 12, 2011)

No, don't do anything for profit. At least nothing much to speak of. My activity is mostly for gifts or fixing neighbors broken stuf…haha. Yes, many neighbors stop in and ask me to fix broken bed rails, or coffee tables, etc. I also recently made a box (I posted this in my projects) as a gift for a neighbor that I have talked to about 4 times who is a marine Vietnam Vetran.

I am currently building some toy boxes that I intended making a little money on for a lady at work, but in the end, because I am a lousy estimator, she is basically just paying for materials and I am doing the work.

I understand what you're saying and the fact that I would "likely lose", as I have read nothing but horror storis. But, I guess I am just taken back by how much control these HOAs can have on your daily activities.


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## ChuckC (May 13, 2010)

Yup, close the door. I keep mine closed because I don't want people seeing my stuff. It will keep a lot of the noise in too and may be the only solution you need. Start with that.


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

Chris…keeping the garage door down makes a huge difference. It also prevents people from seeing you do it. I think if you do that, you'll solve your problem. It'll be getting pretty cold now anyway, even in Texas, so this will likely do you good until you do move out.


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

Solution sounds simple to me, take the muffler off your mower and mow your grass all day long every day.


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## dbhost (Jul 20, 2009)

Not directly legal advice as much as curiosity.

"No noxious or offensive activity of any sort shall be permitted
nor shall anything be done on any Lot which may be, or may
become, an annoyance or a nuisance to the neighborhood."

Depending on you nasty your neighbors are, the mere fact that you are breathing may be a "nuisance to the neighborhood."

I would do the following…

#1. Insulate the garage, and keep the doors SHUT. 
#2. Seek out legal advice on whether or not the covenants and restrictions are so ambiguous as to be unenforceable, and if so, are you willing, and financially able to take on a legal fight.
#3. And the most sensible step. You say you are moving in 6 months or around there. Make absolutely certain your next home is NOWHERE NEAR a Homeowners Association. I am sure they mean well, but are often run by power hungry idiots that think they should be able to tell you what you must, or must not do with your property.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

Honestly you shouldn't be angry or surprised. If you have been woodworking everyday for 18 months with your garage door open, all that noise is being directed straight across the street, echoing between houses, and even being a woodworker, if I had to listen to that for 18 months straight I would get pretty irritated. You've been a bit discourteous by moving into a restricted neighborhood then making that level of noise day in and day out. I would go to the immediate neighbors, apologize, and ask them what compromise would make them happy. Chances are that even if only one of the neighbors complained initially there may be others who will submit additional complaints. Visiting and taking their concerns seriously may be all that's needed to squash the complaint especially if you start closing the garage door.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

Rick M and others are correct…To see a man enjoying his craft is reason enough to force him to stop having fun. Same is true of dirt bikes, skateboards, music, a brilliantly painted front door, or an old car in the driveway. I'm amazed by the mean-spiritness that neighbors inflict on one another.


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## msmith1199 (Oct 24, 2012)

Okay, so you're not doing for profit which actually does make a difference where many zoning laws are concerned. However, by your own admission you wood work nearly every day. First of all, a judge is going to have a hard time believing that isn't a business and even if you can prove positively you are not selling anything, the simple fact that you do it every day may cause a court to rule that by definition it is a business.

Another thing brought up is how vague your HOA rules are written. And yes, they are vague, but they are rules and not laws created by the government. When the government has written a law that is vague it could be ruled unconstitutional under the "Void for Vaugness Doctorine." However, making rules by an HOA does not have to meet constitutional standards. The ruling that a court would use is what is offensive to a reasonable person. So for example as somebody brought up, you mow your yard at a reasonable hour and somebody complains. The standard is should a reasonable person think it's not okay to mow you yard at a reasonable hour and the answer is clearly no, a reasonable person knows you have to mow your yard. Now as somebody suggested you take the muffler off your lawn mower and mow your lawn all day. Is that reasonable under the reasonable person standard? Of course it isn't.

But before this gets to court it's up to your HOA board. Usually they don't just let one person control things, you have an HOA board you can appeal to and it sounds like you are heading there. Hopefully you have a majority of reasonable people on the board and they will look at what you are doing and make a decision. But like I said in the first reply, my guess is based on what you described of your activities you are going to lose.


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

How about getting a city permit to do construction on your house?

Sorry, but I'm trying to find ways to really stick the HOA on this one. Seems that, by their own rules,they couldn't do a darn thing if the woodworking was to "add on a room" or otherwise increase the value of your home.


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## Kreegan (Jul 10, 2012)

I still think wolf urine is your best option…

Rich


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

I know others have said similar things but here's my to cents worth. I have had problems with neighbors making noise and can understand why some neighbors might not enjoy your all day woodworking. As for no complaints for 18 months When I finally said something to my neighbor it was 2 years that I put up with his constant barking dogs .This was done to try and maintain good relations with my neighbor,it still did not stop or help me keep good relations with him. Am I picking on you ? No,I really feel for you. I'm not in an area covered by a HOA I still try and do the same thing you are by working reasonable hours. Even though I was not successful in working things out with my neighbor I would suggest you try and find who has filed the complaint and see if you can come to an agreement with them about hours they feel it would be appropriate for you to do your woodworking. Another point is if your doing that much woodworking it might be time for an off site shop particularly if you consider yourself a business it might be possible to find someone to share the shop with to share the cost, even renting a unit to do woodworking in can be tricky sometimes because many industrial complexes don't want woodworking in their units due to an increase in there insurance cost. I've been in various businesses for more than 40 years and found sometimes talking things out or taking and alternate course can cost far less than legal fees. I wish you good luck in resolving this problem.


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## Lonestar_78 (Dec 12, 2011)

I believe all of this is great information, even the wolf blood that was suggested…haha.

I am on the agenda for January. In the meantime, I plan on talking to the president of the HOA that lives just down the street. I want to find out if I can "attempt" to make the noise better in the mean time by taking measures to close the door, tune up/lubricate machines, etc. If gives me the okay, then I suppose I will just try those things and see if any other letters come.

Then, in January, I will attend the meeting and appeal my case. Or, at least speak my mind about it and get their response. I guess another thing that is frustrating is, they can keep me from doing this hobby of mine. But, if I go down the street, there's a guy down there that does woodworking, also. So, because his woodworking doesn't "annoy" anyone, he is allowed to continue. We are on the same street, granted, opposite ends, but still on the same street. Just seems pretty unfair. I know, the world isn't fair, etc, etc…

I do know one of the guys on the board works on cars in his driveway. Hoping to at least strike a sympathy chord with him…haha.


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## BinghamtonEd (Nov 30, 2011)

I looked at your projects. I noticed you've done a few really nice crosses. Keep working on making more, and then accuse them of trying to stifle your religious expression. You've also made projects for retired veteran(s). Ask them if they're requesting that you no longer donate your services to those that fought for our freedoms. Make sure you say "I thought this was 'Merica" a few times.

Have you talked to the other woodworker in your neighborhood? Has he received any complaints?


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## casual1carpenter (Aug 16, 2011)

I'm surprised that no one said to complain about the complainer. I'm a pretty reasonable person I believe, and their filing of complaints against a neighbor without trying to approach you first is a rude, noxious or offensive activity. So someone says that they are bothered by your noise making even with your courteous efforts to limit exposure to appropriate times and you are impacting their quality of life. Whoever Is doing the complaining about you is impacting your quality of life as well in both the act of stopping you hobby / entertainment and the stress and turmoil of threatened legal action. I'd feel the close neighbors out and then start on my own campaign of complaint writing. If you try to think a bit unreasonably I'm sure you could have a new hobby complaint writing. Then I would think about a big ugly for sale by owner sign that includes a public disclosure that even one grumpy individual can get you arrested and fined for farting too loud.

"Section 6. Prohibition of offensive activities. No
activity, whether for profit or not, shall be carried on on any
Lot which is not related to single family residential purposes.
No noxious or offensive activity of any sort shall be permitted
nor shall anything be done on any Lot which may be, or may
become, an annoyance or a nuisance to the neighborhood. *This
restriction is waived in regard to the normal sales activities
required to sell homes in the subdivision* and the lighting
effects utilized to display the model homes."


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## HalDougherty (Jul 15, 2009)

I can sympathize with you. I used to live in town and the neighbors kept calling the cops about my son's classic MGB in my driveway. First they wanted it tagged or they would fine me, then after I pad for the tags, it had to be runnable or they would fine me… So, I read the city regulations and they were in the right, however flower boxes were OK, so I told the cop that came out the last time, I was going to build a big flower box over the car and fill it with flowers. So, he only gave me another warning and 24 hours to move the car. Ok, I also own the farm house I use for a shop (and live in now) so, I moved the car. But the day I moved the car, I also moved from the farm, a utility trailer and my sailboat (on a trailer) to my front yard. The regulations didn't prohibit my having them on my property. The neighbor who didn't like my MGB hated the tarilers, but the law is the law… I kept them in the front yard for the next 5 years. After they called the cops again because my lawn was a little overgrown… (my riding mower was broken) I told the cop, "If he didn't leave me alone I was going to spray the yard with roundup and kill the grass. The regulations specified how tall the grass could get, but nowhere in the rules did it say I had to have grass! After looking at the trailer and sailboat, he knew I would kill every blade of grass on the property. He left and hasn't been back.

Wolf urine is interesting, but this product will get better results. http://www.inheatscents.net/fox.html Every dog both wild and tame will be attracted and mark the territory…


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

@Casual - I think there's an aspect here where Chris is culpable, but most of us realize that the central issue is that the complainer is a coward, and the HOA just facilitates that cowardly behavior. If I were the HOA, I'd first ask the complainer if they talked to Chris about it? That's much better for a community than to play tattle-tail.

But you have a good idea. Put a big FOR SALE BY OWNER sign in the yard. Then you are covered by the "normal sale activity" clause. Heck, Chris is going to be selling soon anyway.


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## Mosquito (Feb 15, 2012)

I've been reading, but not commenting… but I had to say something:

*But you have a good idea. Put a big FOR SALE BY OWNER sign in the yard. Then you are covered by the "normal sale activity" clause. Heck, Chris is going to be selling soon anyway.*

hey… now there's an idea… "building decor for staging to sell"


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## Lonestar_78 (Dec 12, 2011)

Haha, some of you crack me up.

I hadn't even thought about that particular sentence about normal sales activity. Nor, had I thought about what Bing is saying.


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

You are my hero, Hal! That's all kinds of awesome!


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## teejk (Jan 19, 2011)

I bet you can find the complainer…just keep an eye out for anybody wearing black socks and sandals. To hide behind the HOA is the act of a coward.

I think you have to find the complainer and work out a reasonable schedule for the "noisy" stuff (router, planer come to mind unless you have universal motors on other stuff like a TS or bench top jointer, in which case you can add those). Looking at the rest of the stuff in my shop, they do not make much noise.

When you go before the board in January (for some reason I picture the tribunal scene from Animal House), have your local (municipal or state) noise pollution guidelines in hand. They are most likely trumped by the HOA by-laws but you might be able to inject a measurable "reasonable" standard as opposed to the totally subjective standard they employ.


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

Dont forget to put christmas lights (and alot of them) on the for sale sign.


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## msmith1199 (Oct 24, 2012)

You mentioned the neighbor down the street doing the same thing yet nobody complained. You are well within your rights to go complain and get him shutdown too. But is that really the person you want to be? The first house I owned I had a 10' side yard to the fence. Me and my neighbor both built covers over that area that attached at the fence. Lots of people in the neighborhood and in town did this same thing. Did I get a permit? Of course not. But if I tried to get a permit I would have been told it was illegal. And I knew at the time I put it up it probably wasn't legal. But the neighbor on that side did it too and we were both happy.

Well guess what? Somebody in some other part of town had built the same thing but their neighbor didn't like it so that neighbor complained. The City forced the person to remove the cover. So guess what that person did? You guessed right, he drove all over town and made a list of every single house that had the same cover (several hundred houses I'm told) and turned the list in to the City. Now this was something the city generally ignored unless they had complaints and now they had a complaint. So several hundred of us were forced to tear down our covers. I never knew who it was that complained, but my understand was he received some threats from quite a few people. I don't know if it made him feel better to do that to so many people or not.


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

Dont forget to put christmas lights (and alot of them) on the for sale sign.

These sort of people annoy me. When I was a kid in the 80's a neighbor left an anonymous note on my moms door because she hung out laundry in the back yard to dry on a Sunday and that after all is the Lord's day.


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## BinghamtonEd (Nov 30, 2011)

Pat got me thinking…you should do this for Christmas…no way can they make you take down your Christmas decorations…


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## msmith1199 (Oct 24, 2012)

I bet you the HOA rules cover Christmas decorations too.


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## BinghamtonEd (Nov 30, 2011)

I don't know, if he could find a 20ft tall baby Jesus, that's a very sensitive thing to tell someone they can't have. Does it say anything about a living nativity scene?


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## Lonestar_78 (Dec 12, 2011)

Haha, love the lights idea.

No, Mark, I don't want to be, nor will I be "that" person. I am just saying with the laws being so vague, it allows someone the freedom down the street to do something, but restricts me from doing the same thing. There is no definition involved, "i.e. you may not run woodworking tools". If there was any definition, it would keep anyone from doing it. But, because there's not, it means some people can do it, and others cannot…just seems sort of odd.


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

In my last neighborhood I was very lucky in that my neighbors on either side were also avid woodworkers. I would regularly see the one neighbor spraying a finish in his driveway. (I would never consider that in my current neighborhood). The neighbor on the other side had a garage shop to envy with all the tools I wish I could afford.

Even with this situation, I got thinly veiled complaints from the neighbor's wife when I was under a deadline once and working all kinds of hours in my garage. "You are one of the hardest working guys I've ever seen!", ( Read, I wish you wouldn't run your planer while I'm trying to eat my dinner.)

The difference between you and the guy down the street is that you are apparently bugging the heck outta someone in your neighborhood. You know how it goes… Once you've annoyed someone, other things that wouldn't normally annoy, are now annoying as well. It's hard to recover from once it starts.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

DS251 Gave me and Idea… offer to teach woodworking to any of the near by neighbors ,that approach might be better than a missile launcher pointed in the neighbors direction. )


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## GregD (Oct 24, 2009)

Wouldn't you know, they've got an app for that!

I'm kinda curious how loud my planer is outside the garage with the door shut. My neighbor's bedroom wall is about 10' from my garage wall, and he mentioned that the planer woke him up one Saturday when he was trying to sleep in. Not sure I had the garage door closed that time, but I'm careful to close it now.


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## jap (Oct 10, 2012)

you should tell them woodworking is your therapy, and if you don't get enough of it, you'll go insane.


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## Kreegan (Jul 10, 2012)

Make sure it's one of those Christmas displays that blares music. Something like Alvin and the Chipmunks or the Smurfs. Super loud. Then accuse them of hating the baby Jesus if they complain.

Rich


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

This should be a warning to people looking to buy homes. 
You pay the HOA to tell you how to live while you are making the payments. Other people are telling you how to live. BS! While I fully try to respect other peoples rights I was in a HOA in LasVegas and that was enough to do me. 
I hope you get this resolved to everyones satisfaction but frankly I wouldn't bet on it.


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## teejk (Jan 19, 2011)

howie I agree…no good outcome on this one.

we had a trap/skeeting range that a neighbor (a mile away) didn't like. try as they did, they couldn't shut it down even in our ultra-liberal township. when we added an indoor archery building for league shooting, they went back to the town again because they said the noise of the ARROW FLIGHT was excessive (did I mention it was indoors and they were a mile away)?

a very good friend of mine (no longer with us) encountered a "lady" in our summer recreational lake area who complained about boat noise and people partying past 8 pm. he gave her brochures to retirement homes.


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## teejk (Jan 19, 2011)

edit…somehow got a "dup"


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## cutworm (Oct 2, 2010)

Look. A saw in your shop runs less time and makes less noise than a lawn mower or blower. I'd say one of the board members is just being an ass. Contact the equipment manufacturers and they can give you the noise levels for their equipment. If your saw makes no more noise than another nieghbors lawn equipment you are good. I got a letter telling me I needed to paint my mail box. I had just painted it in satin to match the light posts but one of the board members preferred gloss. Since they didn't specify a color I chose John Deere green. I waited for a complaint but didn't get any. Seems like there is always one psycho on the board. Jerks.


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## woodworker59 (May 16, 2012)

I do all my work in a 11' by 20' shop, so you should be able to accomplish what every you need in even a one bay garage with the doors down.. In my experience, its going to be one of your closest neighbors.. the rest can't hear enough to bother them.. unless they have a hair across the sphincter already..
I agree with DonW The other option is to do your work with hand tools.. with the exception of the TS most everything else can be done by hand with tools that make almost no noise at all.. 
option three, cut the mufflers off your cars and trucks and give them something to bitch about.. most likely the option I would chose.. Papa


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## TedW (May 6, 2012)

Lots to read here so this may have already been suggested. Maybe it's time to play by their rules. When a dog barks, file a complaint. When you hear a radio, file a complaint. When you hear a gas lawn mower, file a complaint. when you can hear somebody talking, file a complaint.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Good idea Ted except I'm guessing your assuming some action will be taken after you file a complaint or several complaints.


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## getlostinwood (Apr 11, 2011)

Kill'em with kindness, Give a small token of woodworking gift to your neighbors, Wine balancers, turned bottle stoppers, something that they may see on a regular basis yet not break you financially. Consider it hush money.


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

Best idea is what I did. Just move and let someone else deal with it. No more stress that way.


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## Lonestar_78 (Dec 12, 2011)

I talked to two of the 4 neighbors yesterday. One, which is the one I figured it would "bother" the most said he doesn't have any issues as long as it isn't too late or too early. He said sometimes he hears it, sometime he doesn't. The other neighbor I talked to was the owner's son. When I brought it up, he seemed to immediately know what I was talking about. He sort of skirted around a bit. Mostly put everything off on his Dad and said he would take my information and have him call me. In addition, I talked to the guy that I previously made a box for that lives across the street from this neighbor. They appear to know each other pretty well. I was telling him about the situation and he laughed and asked if I have ever complained about their yapping dog, the cracked sidewalks or the fences that were still down from the hurricane. I told him "no", he asked me to come get him whenever I went back to talk to that neighbor, or if I went and talked to the board. He said, "you took care of me, I will take care of you, Hoorah!". He is a retired marine, so, he got pretty pumped up about this…haha.

So, things are looking better, but still have two more neighbors to go and the HOA president. I really like the idea of the small gifts for the immediate neighbors. I also like the idea of the decibel meter. I found an app that emails the results in graphical format. I know it wouldn't hold up in a court of law, but if I can get favorable readings, I can at least present the information in my case.

Thank you all again so much for the information and advise and laughs. You guys are all great!


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

Gifts? "Millions for defense, but not one cent for tribute".....


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## msmith1199 (Oct 24, 2012)

Chris, like I told you I spent a lot of years in law enforcement and handled many similar situations. The first thing people do is try and find out which neighbor complained. Every neighbor will always deny being the complainer and the person comes back to us and claims all the neighbors are fine with it. Well they aren't fine with it, they are just telling you that. In most criminal cases a victim must come forward and complain before action can be taken. When somebody is violating a zoning law the complainer can remain anonymous because you don't need them to prove the zoning law has been violated. (And I am talking law here and that is different from HOA rules, but the concepts are the same.)

Back when I was working as a patrol cop I got a complaint about people with RV's on the street and in driveways on a court. There was a city ordinance that said you can't store RV's in front of homes or on the street. It's one of those laws that only got enforced when somebody complained. This court had 12 houses on it and 8 of the 12 residents had RV's. When I turned onto the court it looked like a trailer park. All you could see was trailers and motorhomes. I'm an RVer myself, and it just looked bad. Of course when I started talking to people they claimed all the neighbors were fine with this and they wanted to know who was complaining and I refused to tell them because it didn't matter, I could see the law violation myself. This went on for a while to get this problem cleared up all the while with these people telling me they've talked to all the people on the court and everybody was fine with it. Well it turns out that all four of the home owners without RV's were the ones doing the complaining and of course they didn't want to admit that to the people with the RV's and I frankly don't blame them because these people were irate over the fact that they weren't allowed to turn their neighborhood into a trailer park.


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## Charlie5791 (Feb 21, 2012)

The section of your HOA agreement that is being used against you is so vague as to be unenforceable. Terms like "noxious activities" are subjective and there's no way to quantify it as it's written. It would almost certainly be tossed out of any court because of the way it's written. (I always say "almost certainly" because nothing is certain)

If you simply want to postpone this until you move, keep asking for clarification. I would respond to the HOA something like this:

"I am taking immediate steps to secure sound level readings at various locations around my property with each machine running in an attempt to remedy this situation. Without naming the complainant(s), if I could get some more specific feedback as to time of day, and direction from from my property, I may be able to better focus my efforts to resolve the problem. It is not my intention to be offensive to anyone."

If they try to slap you with fines or fees without giving you the information needed to resolve the problem, then I think it's time to lawyer up and tell 'em to pound salt. Oh… and blast the radio when you run the planer so they can't hear the planer.


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## davidmicraig (Nov 21, 2009)

No advice for the current situation that hasn't been offered already. Cutting down the noise currently and making efforts to get a hold of the HOA for more specifics would be your best bet. When you move, it would be a good idea to get familiar with potential neighbors in the areas in which you are looking. I have been fortunate in my locale. I can work in a basement and I speak to the neighbors on a semi-regular basis to get input on the noise. I work third shift, so I tend to work in my shop in the middle of the night. I don't run the louder tools after 10pm but do play music. I went around and inquired about noise levels in advance to those situated around me. I told them about my routine and hobby and let them know if there are any concerns about the noise to please let me know. I check in about once every couple months or so, when I see them out in their yards to keep that communication flowing. So far, so good.

Also, I personally would refrain from living in an area that is HOA regulated. Some are quite strict to the levels of telling you what color flowers you can plant, what decorations you can have in your lawn, what hobbies you can indulge in, etc. If I wanted that much control over my living arrangements, I would rent and not buy a house.


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## Everett1 (Jun 18, 2011)

screw places with an HOA. Nothing worse than paying for your property and having to deal with whiny douches.

But, be respectful with your stuff. I make sure not to run stuff too late since my neighbors have little kids. But with my garage door closed, it's not that loud anyway.

Ev


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## Ironrooster (Sep 5, 2012)

I live in an HOA community, in fact I am currently on the board.

Personally, I'm not a fan of being overly restrictive, but some people do some very inconsiderate things that can make the neighborhood look like a slum. This drives property values down and detracts from most people's desire to live in a quiet attractive place.

Given some of the "suggestions" in this thread, I'm not surprised the complainant has not confronted you - he/she doesn't know if that's safe. And there always seems to story in the news about neighbors shooting each other over something.

Assuming you want to get along with the neighborhood, I suggest you use your opportunity to talk to the board to discuss what you can do to ameliorate the problem and perhaps get them to come by and see how loud the noise is after you perhaps insulate the garage door (and the walls if that's not already done). If you get the board to agree that what you are doing is acceptable, you have no problem. Remember, the management company works for the board, not the other way around.

That said, some HOA's are run by jerks. If that's your case, you are probably best served by stopping your wood working until your soon to be move takes place. Once the lawyers are involved everyone else loses. As a friend of mine likes to say "When you go to court, all you are guaranteed is a decision - not justice" 
Good luck
Paul


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

@Ironrooster, there is NO getting along with the neighborhood. THAT is the POINT. Hell, I have been turned over to some collection asshole, because I resigned my membership, under article 2 of the original bylaws, yet this POA keeps trying to bill me for "mandatory membership" under something that 'DOES NOT EXIST' under article 11 of the bylaws. My point is that NOTHING stops them from making your life Hell if they want to. BTW, I resigned more that 8-years ago.


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## chansen (Dec 1, 2011)

I would bet your city/county has a legal noise ordinace, with dB levels that are allowable for certain times of day. Where I live the allowable dB limits are around 55 dB. Where I live, the standards are published by the county helath department. That can give you some leverage on the 'reasonable' noise levels. If you have a smartphone, download a noise meter app and you can use that as your guide. They certainly aren't going to be as accurate as professional equipment, but it gives you a place to start. You should also measure the ambient noise while your tools are off, and what the noise levels are when they are on. I would doubt that you're really adding to the ambient noise at those times of day.

Good luck,


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## Lonestar_78 (Dec 12, 2011)

MYSTERY SOLVED!!!

Well, sort of.

I found the neighbor that has had the problems. He called me today, as he's the father of the kid I talked to the other day. He told me that he's likely an "exception" because he spends a lot of time outside. He said also the nail gun makes his dog act funny…

Someone else mentioned this, but he said he didn't come talk to me because "these days you just don't know what people are capable of".

He seemed like a nice guy, for the most part. I told him I would make some efforts to keep the garage down, or if I felt I "had" to have the door up, I would give him a heads up on what I was about to do and how loud I expected it to be.

He was pleased with this idea and I just asked him if anything happened in the future, I would appreciate it if he would come talk with me. He agreed he would do so, said he didn't want to see anyone's hobby put down over something like this and felt there was a middle ground, but just didn't know how to get there without coming and knocking on my door (which he didn't want to do for safety reasons).

So, seems like so far, it's worked out for the best.

Thank you all for the suggestions, advice and guidance. I really appreciate it. When we do move, we will definitely know to take the HOA consideration VERY seriously…haha.

Chris


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## rance (Sep 30, 2009)

My reply was gonna be:

Isn't part of 'single family residential purposes' enjoying yourself, and your hobbies? Almost any activity could be construed as 'single family residential purposes'. And as for the rules, if the HOA members won't be reasonable, I'd go after them. Sit in front of their house and start writing up complaints. They they can get a dose of how vague their own rules are.

...but it looks like it is cleared up. Good going on your actions.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

Chris: Thanks for the insight! *"these days you just don't know what people are capable of".* I'm also aware of the refusal of people to confront 'offenders' face-to-face, and now I understand why things sometimes happen the way they do, without my jumping to conclusions about someone's behavior.


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## casual1carpenter (Aug 16, 2011)

Chris, I don't wanna make rain on your parade, BUT. The kids dad who you found might be the complainer, Is he likely to back up your talk with the HOA people? I can't remember the poster but One guy was law enforcement and he made a comment that people often change their stories depending on who they are talking to. You might consider talking to the guy on the HOA board about it and following up with a letter that one neighbor had admitted having issues and you two met and politely settled your differences like gentlemen. Do to the fact that the management company did not give you full disclosure on just who or what the issues were involved, that unless otherwise directed - you are going to consider the entire complaint issue resolved and abide within the private agreement the two of you established. Perhaps you could even get the neighbor to co-author the letter.

I really like that 'unless otherwise directed' line, I read it in a book somewhere, it sort of puts the ball in their court and also states that you are trying to within your legal and moral understanding of the HOA rule.

Just a thought for you to consider, sometimes people in those management positions and like a wild animal, once they are turned loose and get their teeth into something, well they just don't let it go.


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## PRGDesigns (Jan 25, 2012)

Ditto on not a lawyer and not offering legal advice. I have not read through all of the responses on this subject yet, but you might check for other deed restrictions the developer might have put in there about noise and dust complaints regarding construction activities, i.e. sawing, planing, nailing, etc. They usually exempt those activities from HOA enforcement because they don't want to be shut down from building houses by an overzealous HOA or a neighbor who thinks since they just moved in everything offends them. What is good for the builder/developer works for you as well. HOA's typically don't like to advise you of these deed restrictions because they don't think they apply because they are not in their rules and why muddy the water with actual legal issues when you can make people do what you want with threats and intimidation? Deed restrictions typically flow through to the next owner(s) and are more enforceable in a court of law than anything the HOA can throw at you, thus why developers/builders use them to their advantage. Just a thought that might be worth your time. FYI - whenever someone complained about my barking dogs, I would fire up the planer. They eventually got the hint.


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## Woodbum (Jan 3, 2010)

I live in HOA neighborhood. Barking dogs is my biggest complaint. Like shrieking kids, the owners just tune them out I guess. I work with my insulated OH doors closed for security as much or more than for noise abatement. I don't want the drive buys casing my shop for their next B & E. I have never had a noise complaint, but I plan my jointer and planer ops for mid day periods. Routers, band and TS work after 8AM and before 5PM. Sanding, lathe work etc can be done after or before "regular hours". After 8 or 9 hrs, my concentration begins to flag so I try for safety sake to not push it. But…I severely dislike HOA's. I think that mano a mano is better in neighborhood relationships than whining to big brother about things and hiding behind the HOA when you don't have the 'nads to speak to a neighbor directly. Chris: your plan to talk to your neighbors directly is a good one. Even if one of them is complaining, a little face to face may solve the problem if you ask him to let you know when the noise is too loud. But your best idea is moving to a non HOA neighborhood


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## tomclark (Feb 16, 2010)

We once had a neighbor who parked an old junk RV in his yard, against the HO Regulations. We sent him a nice letter, and he told us to stick it you-know-where. We talked to the local law, and they told us that the only way to enforce the regulations was to take him to court. The judge said that we could see him in court in about 3 years…

So, since you are moving in 6 months, just try to be quieter and go with it.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

Too many responses to read so all I can say is to continue your present activity since you are moving soon. Who would want to live in such a community. I live in a rural area on 8 acres and I can make all the noise I want and nobody complains. I shoot guns and so do my nearest neighbors.


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## gargey (Apr 11, 2016)

> My wife has also suggesting working with the garage door down. I will likely test this this afternoon and see if it makes a large difference. If the difference is neglegible, I would rather have the door up, since I have a small garage. But, if it is significant, I can completely get behind shutting the door to run the tools. I mean, it s not like any of us (usually) turn on a tool and just leave it running for more than a few minutes at a time. So, shutting the door during the machine usage wouldn t be that big of a deal.


Old post, I know, but very lol.

You don't even shut the garage door? You don't care about creating massive noise pollution for your neighbors and *YOU *are furious about receiving a letter? Hahahahaha. Gold.

I work on stuff in my garage, and I close the door if I'm gonna use my skillsaw (only power tool).

Even with the door closed, at night, I won't even use it at all out of respect for peace and quiet. These people live there, they're not just touring, you want to make them have to move to have some peace and quiet inside or outside of their homes?

Same goes for people who mow their lawns on Sunday afternoons, etc. Unless you're neighbors are spaced several hundred yards away, find a more appropriate time for that stuff!


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## Lonestar_78 (Dec 12, 2011)

I am not sure if you read the whole way through or not…and it's been so long now that I don't remember everything that transpired…BUT…

I did strike a deal with the only specific person that had an issue with that particular situation. I did start shutting my door when running loud machinery. Since you only use a hand saw, I am guessing you're unaware of the amount of dust larger machines create. While I have everything in place to mitigate this than I can afford to have, it's not 100% effective. So, by shutting the door while running larger machines and a text to the guy to let him know I was doing it seemed to be generally acceptable. If it was in the middle of the day, I didn't bother with this. In the summers it get to 100+ degrees here, so being in an unconditioned space with no air flow in that type of heat also didn't make sense.

Either way, I have moved from that location. In my new location my garage has been completely insulated and air conditioned. I haven't had any of the issues as I did previously, despite still being in an HOA.


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## BinghamtonEd (Nov 30, 2011)

> Same goes for people who mow their lawns on Sunday afternoons, etc. Unless you re neighbors are spaced several hundred yards away, find a more appropriate time for that stuff!
> 
> - gargey


Wait, what? I'm not supposed to mow my lawn on a Sunday afternoon? When it rains half the time, and everyone has jobs, Saturday and Sunday afternoon are often the only times. I bet you'd probably complain about people who mow their lawn at 7PM on a weekday evening. People around here do that as well. When the weather is nice, which sometimes isn't that often, everyone gets out when they can.

I can understand keeping the garage doors closed when you run machinery (I always do), but not mowing on Sunday afternoon? Give me a break.


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## Lonestar_78 (Dec 12, 2011)

I concur


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## BillWhite (Jul 23, 2007)

You can download an app for decibel meters for your phone. I have one, and use it.
Bill


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## mako1 (Mar 23, 2016)

Regardless of the HOA or the noise complaint most communities will not allow a business to be ran in a residential neighborhood without a variance. This intails in part getting all of your neighbors to sign a paper allowing it.
If one has a problem with the noise it is not going to happen.
I would also "guess" that the HOA's laws do not allow you to run a business from your home.


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## clin (Sep 3, 2015)

> Regardless of the HOA or the noise complaint most communities will not allow a business to be ran in a residential neighborhood without a variance. This intails in part getting all of your neighbors to sign a paper allowing it.
> If one has a problem with the noise it is not going to happen.
> I would also "guess" that the HOA s laws do not allow you to run a business from your home.
> 
> - mako1


^^^ +1

This is what it is in my city. Unless an area is zoned commercial, you cannot run a business without restrictions. I don't think there is a requirement to get prior approval. But I think that if there is a complaint, they can shut you down.

Complaints could be noise, could be customers coming to your home, basically anything that is impacting the area.

I know this is a very old thread, so I'm not specifically addressing the OP with this, but I think gargey said it well (except for the Sunday mowing thing), it's where people live. You need to be respectful of the noise you make just living there. Running a woodworking business in a typical residential area seems completely out of bounds to me.

And if someone is going to do this, it's incumbent on them to mitigate the issues. Work with the door closed, air condition your shop if need be. Heck sound proofing is not out of the question.

Same is true even if it is just a hobby. If you're doing it constantly, you're overstepping. Maybe it's not violating city ordinances, but it is inconsiderate.

I know I'd be PO'd if I couldn't sit on my back patio and enjoy the day, without hearing a neighbors noise from a woodworking business or incessant hobby. Sure the occasional weekend warrior project, that's part of life, but not everyday.


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## Lonestar_78 (Dec 12, 2011)

Incessant hobby, definitely…but not a business.

Everyone will have their opinions on this. I did and do try to be respectful. I don't want anyone doing anything that annoys me, either…in the particular case of this original post, I think the guy was being over sensitive and exaggerating the issue…I talked to several of the neighbors, including the ones that were more directly impacted because of their distance to the source.

i think this guy just "had it in for me". But like I said, it's long past and not an issue. It is an interesting conversation, though…just getting the different perspectives from people that participate in woodworking.


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## gargey (Apr 11, 2016)

I guess I need to think beyond my bubble, around here 90%+ of people pay crews to mow their lawns (which can be scheduled to avoid that).

Houston. Hot & humid.


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## bigblockyeti (Sep 9, 2013)

I can't believe someone would even be so inconsiderate as to cut their own grass, I thought once you paid your HOA dues so someone else could tell you what you were allowed to do with your own property you were required to pay someone else to cut your grass. Why in the world would someone want to engage in such manual labor, they're probably the kind of people who would enjoy woodworking or some other kind of craft. The thing that really gets to me is the people that have the audacity to actually change their own oil in their car, much less do something no non-professional should ever attempt like rotating the tires or any other dangerous activities!


> Same goes for people who mow their lawns on Sunday afternoons, etc. Unless you re neighbors are spaced several hundred yards away, find a more appropriate time for that stuff!
> 
> - gargey


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## clin (Sep 3, 2015)

> Incessant hobby, definitely…but not a business.
> 
> Everyone will have their opinions on this. I did and do try to be respectful. I don t want anyone doing anything that annoys me, either…in the particular case of this original post, I think the guy was being over sensitive and exaggerating the issue…I talked to several of the neighbors, including the ones that were more directly impacted because of their distance to the source.
> 
> ...


Certainly when it comes to personal use of one's property, best thing is to try to work it out with your neighbors. Perhaps someone works a night shift and needs to sleep during part of the day. That sort of thing. A little consideration on both sides goes a long way.

When I moved into my current house, first time I met my closest neighbor (while still moving in), I mentioned I play guitar, occasionally loud, and if it is ever a problem, please let me know. And I suspect I've noticed his leaf blower more than he has ever heard my guitar.

Now my neighbor on the other side, with a German Shepard that just won't shut up, that one gets under my skin from time to time.

A lot of time noise bugs people because they feel they have no control. Give them your phone number and let them know to contact you if it is ever a problem. That can make things go from "A-hole across the street is cutting wood all the time.", to "Oh, that's just Bob across the street, he's a good guy and likes to work with wood."

Sort of like inviting your neighbor to the party, so they won't complain about the noise.


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## Kirk650 (May 8, 2016)

When we were in the city, I was constantly worried that the woodworking noise would bring complaints. I went to each of th neighbors and asked if the noise was bothering them, and they were Ok with it. Thank goodness.

Like the others said, I'd insulate, put A/C in the garage and keep the door down. It's hard to fight the self important little folk on the HOA.


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## Gentile (Jun 3, 2013)

My HOA are a bunch of busy-bodies…
I had to attend 3 different monthly meetings to get a pergola approved. Lots of stupid questions…
I've had no complaints about noise. I insulated the walls and roll up door. I insulated the door more for keeping the garage cool, it faces East and heated up way too much for comfort.
I'm retired and the subdivision turns into a ghost town during the day.
I keep my door closed, (mentioned before), to keep eyes off my stuff. I even bring wood in through the house or open the door a bit and slide stuff in.
HOAs do have a use, keeping property values high and to keep the neighborhood from looking like crap. There are a few neighbor hoods close by that have no HOAs, crappy looking yards, junker cars, abandoned houses, etc.
$50.00 a month, is the fee…


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

My x-wife lived in an apartment that was accessed by an outside stairway. Her neighbor would scream and holler because her footsteps made noise; a real nut case.


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## bigblockyeti (Sep 9, 2013)

The x-wife or the neighbor?


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## wuddoc (Mar 21, 2008)

Like previous LJ's I am not a lawyer but periodically we had to check our school shop noise and dust levels.

To determine the unofficial noise level of your tool you may try the following keeping in mind the meter is placed next to your ear not the tool. In your case possibly outside at various distances with open and closed doors.

Inexpensive non calibrated sound level reader = Radio-Shack -33-2050 sometimes available on ebay.
Noise level info = https://www.osha.gov/dts/osta/otm/new_noise/index.html#soundlevel


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## bigblockyeti (Sep 9, 2013)

Anyone know what happened to Beener's story it appears to be gone.


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

Here's a link to his blog page detailing his whole affair Yeti. I hope the old boy's still out there fighting.

http://nbeener.blogspot.com/


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## bigblockyeti (Sep 9, 2013)

Thanks, found it shortly after my last post. HOLY MACKEREL!!! Talk about having the whole world (or at least all of fort collins) stacked against you and that's without the evil, cronyism and incompetence built into the whole situation. I too hope he's hanging in there, nothing like paying taxes to have the people you're paying not doing their job on seemingly every level!


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## smithcreek (May 24, 2016)

me and all my neighbors mow with tractors, the neighbors dog comes to visit my dog and sometimes even leaves a calling card on the back steps, prescribed burns rain down ash several times a year and isis is cutting peoples heads off. really? we have become so self absorbed we cant stand the sound of someone producing something?? 
some people would b-ch if you hung em with a brand new rope.
creek


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

A couple points:

1) If you actually are annoying people, for everyone's peace, it needs to be dealt with.

2) When dealing with government, and a home owners association is a quasi government, overly vague rules can be beaten down. Otherwise, they can be bent and twisted to accommodate every jerk around. As such, it's a good idea to review your covenants and such. Then, if there is a vague rambling about noxious this-es or that'ses, make a written request for the PUBLISHED definition.

If someone offers an arbitrary, spur of the moment definition, make another request. Seek things like: the insurance under which they and the associations are operating; records that will allow you to see their established authority to enforce the arbitrary code; documents by which you can identify each individual involved in the threat; documents by which you may determine each time they have used the U.S. Mails and wires to make threats; and, documents that can direct you to court records for each instance they or the association has been sued for acts outside their scope of authority (in their private capacity), violations of U.S. Postal Codes (e.g., threats defined in Title 18 of the U.S. Codes; etc.

3) Plug Every air leak you can find. If you aren't insulated, caulk the plates to the walls. Install insulation, then rock. A second layer of rock will absorb even more sound, but stopping air movement, which is sound, stops the sound (vibration of the wall aside).

This means watch your door and window gaskets too.


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## Gentile (Jun 3, 2013)

Nbeener- I left Fort Collins 5 years ago. Your story doesn't make me miss "The Choice City" one darned bit…
The only thing I miss is Sears-Trotsel Lumber and some friends…


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## stefang (Apr 9, 2009)

Good time to take up hand tool woodworking!


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## splatman (Jul 27, 2014)

The whole idea of telling authorities instead of facing their opponents must be a holdover from from school. "If someone is harming you or breaking rules, tell the teacher" (or something to that effect) is what is taught in schools, at least when I was in elementary; may be different now.

The whole "I don't know what my opponent is capable of" bit seems like a new one; probably a spin-off of terrorism (or the fear of it), but it probably dates all the way back to Ancient Times.


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## clin (Sep 3, 2015)

> The whole idea of telling authorities instead of facing their opponents must be a holdover from from school. "If someone is harming you or breaking rules, tell the teacher" (or something to that effect) is what is taught in schools, at least when I was in elementary; may be different now.
> 
> The whole "I don t know what my opponent is capable of" bit seems like a new one; probably a spin-off of terrorism (or the fear of it), but it probably dates all the way back to Ancient Times.
> 
> - splatman


In this day and age where it isn't just teens that might tell you the F-off and we don't necessarily know our neighbors, I don't blame anyone for not just knocking on someone's door to complain about something.

I know of people, who if they aren't expecting someone, answer their door with a gun at the ready. A lot of people are pretty selfish these days, and when asked (I stress asked) to consider changing their behavior immediately become defiant.

Unfortunately, authorities tend to be pretty heavy handed the way they bring things up. And this tends to put anyone receiving a complaint in a mood to fight it.

I complete agree that a friendly personal exchange is best, but I can understand why many people don't want to risk a confrontation.


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## ArtMann (Mar 1, 2016)

I don't know anything about the original poster's situation but I am the victim of an unenforced homeowner agreement. For the last several years, people all over the neighborhood have broken the rules regarding what kind and condition of vehicle can be parked in the driveway and what type of out buildings can be built. I was the guy who was aggravated but didn't say anything. The infractions are now so prevalent that there is no longer any legal recourse. I wish so much I had been a complete asshole and demanded everyone obey the rules to which they originally agreed in the restrictions. I would estimate my property value has already been reduced by $50,000 because of it. I am having to move because the neighborhood is getting more trashy by the year and my property value continues to fall.

Unless I live on the farm, I am moving to a neighborhood that has restrictions to protect my property value and I won't hesitate to complain or bring a lawsuit against offenders.


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## gargey (Apr 11, 2016)

Hicks do as hicks do…


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## dbhost (Jul 20, 2009)

Insulate your garage, and keep the door shut. Find reasonable ways to reduce your noises.


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## dday (Jun 27, 2014)

I am also in the position of living with an HOA that has rules that are somewhat enforced. I can understand some of them, but others like house colors and types of trees you can have in your yard .. BUT, the noise part I can understand. What you don't want is to have the HOA look the other way for a hobbyist.. (and I do woodworking out of my garage as well, being careful of the times ) and then someone else seeing that and opening a home business of some kind out of the garage…

Given it to do over again, I won't live in a neighborhood..


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

When you buy a house in a neighborhood that has a HOA it's your responsibility to know what the rules are. I assume you knew when you bought the place what the restriction are/were.

You singed the papers and now you have to do what you agreed to. When you live in close proximity to lost of people you everybody just can't do as they like.

This is like the guy who buy a house at the end of a runway and then complains about the noise.

I lived in an entrapment complex for 6 years. I finally had enough an move to the country. Best thing I ever did.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Heard a story about a fellow that sold off his farm land…...for housing lots. In the fine print of each deed that went with each lot, was a clause…....No HOA allowed, or forfiet deed.

Soooo, after selling a bunch of lots, and seeing a lot of nice homes being built…..yep, they new owners decided to form a HOA…..later they complained about the old farmer still raising horses on what little bit of land he had left….

Farmer attended the meeting…...and laid out each and every deed he sold…...pointed out the clause….and gave each member 90 days to vacate.


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## bigblockyeti (Sep 9, 2013)

I'd love to be a fly on the wall at that meeting!


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