# General Finishes Enduro Pre-Cat Urethane



## rolltopbox (Mar 16, 2010)

I am having trouble locating information about using this product on new wood. I plan to spray using a Rockler HVLP system like this.

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=10469

I am looking for help in selecting tip size, what the film should look like right after spraying, etc.

Thanks for any help given.


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## HokieJoe (Apr 7, 2010)

Hello, I'm in a similar situation. General's recommendation is to use a .043" - .051" tip with an HVLP gun. With my gun, (Earlex 5000) the 1mm tip = .040", so that's the tip I'll be using with the Enduro precat.

From General's website:

"Recommended Spray Tips for Wood Stains and Top Coats. Fluid tip sizes should be as follows: Compressed air - .040, HVLP - .051, Airless - .009. Recommended Tips for Milk Paint. Compressed air - .050, HVLP - .072, Airless - .013. Air caps should be medium size. Contact your supplier to verify proper tip sizes for your specific equipment."

They also recommend using their Pre-Cat Sanding Sealer before using the Enduro. BTW, I posted a question about tip size over at WoodWhisperer's website here:

"Music to My EARlex": http://thewoodwhisperer.com/episode-45-music-to-my-earlex/#comment-56029


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

the one Rockler has Looks like an Earlex 3000 , both will spray the product , my preference is to use a 1.4 or 1.5 needle/nozzle set up in the earlex , I open up the fluid knob to get as much fluid as possible , bearing in mind , water base is thicker , if need be thin it up to 10% , with water ( tap will do fine), get a medium mesh strainer , as long as the fluid goes thru it reasonably well , you are fine ( viscosity) , the finer tip ( instead of a 2.0) allows a finer spray , but because its thicker you have to put more fluid to it , to get it to spray well, 
the coating will look milky white , and should look relatively smooth and wet , water base will look somewhat like the peel of an orange ( slight exaggeration), when first applied , but will level out , the smoother it is put on the smoother it will be, but again it can have a bit of texture , as it doesn't lay and flow like solvent based products , the molecules in water base glue together to form the film, like a zillion BB's all touching , solvent based the resins are dissolved , so they are in liquid form , as soon as the solvent evaporates you have a film, but it will lay flat initially , water base behaves a little differently , what you want is a moderate wet coat , and walk away … check it an hour later , then check it after an overnight dry .. you will see what I am talking about… hope this helps


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## rolltopbox (Mar 16, 2010)

Thanks CharlesNeil for the details. I think I am on the right track.


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## rolltopbox (Mar 16, 2010)

I have sprayed 2 coats, sanded 400 grit and sprayed two more coats. Each coat was allowed to dry 1 to 4 hours between coats. The sanded coat was allowed to dry overnight.

I keep getting this rough pebbly finish. The first picture is after the forth coat and a day of drying. The second picture is after sanding 400 grit.

So what am I doing wrong?


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

you are not getting enough material on, its "dry", you want a wetter coat , slow down , you want a wet coat to follow the gun, this is a common error made in spraying , folks get scared of runs, so they spray to light , the trick is how wet to avoid runs , but wet enough to flow out level, try this , take a scrap , brush a "wet coat", that is what you want to replicate when spraying , I have often said if your not getting a run every now and again , your not getting it wet enough , you might also try thinning it a bit ( 5 to 10%), I always have a good synthetic brush handy , if I happen to get a run a quick brushing will level it out , if it starts to "set up" on you , wet the brush with some water , the issue you are having is you don't have enough material on to flow together , a sprayed finish is simply zillions of droplets of finish that flow together to form a film, too little material, you get a rough pebbly finish , too much you get a run, it definitely requires some practice … You will get it , but keep the brush handy , I been spraying since I was 13 , I'm now 56 , I still keep a brush around , Water base is tough to get the hang of , it requires a thicker film to level out , and its a fine balance , also be sure you keep the gun parallel to the surface , don't swing it in arch's , you want approx a 6" fan pattern, and be about 6 to 8" away from the surface …


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

Watch this see if it helps http://www.earlex.com/finishing-tips-video.html


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

Rob, the enduro var , as well as any waterbase , all have the same properties , If you are like me and have sprayed alot of solvent based products , it takes a bit of getting used too .. and usually foul language is part of the process


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

this is a good thread , so I will help further , get you some mirka abralon , its a 6 inch pad that will work on your random orbit , lets assume you have a less than perfect finish, once its dry , sand it by hand using some soapy water , and some 1200 to 1500 for a satin finish, or 2000 to 2500 for a gloss , super fine papers like this are usually available form your local autobody supply , its the black silicon carbide paper ( water proof) you want this guy will sell the abralon in singles http://www.bowlingbeat.com/shop/item.asp?itemid=1344
using a 1000 then a quick hit with some 2000 will give you a nice satin , 3000 to 4000 will give a semi gloss to gloss , they also work well for hand rubbing , auto body polishing compound, rottenstone, pumice , while they will polish a film, they all basically work to a gloss , a satin is hard to get as well as a semigloss , the abralon pads, because they are a defined grit do it well , no matter how much you rub you get the same result, once you have it sanded to a level smooth surface , then rub it out with your choice of pad , clean it up ,a light coat of wax will brighten it , the key is to let the finish cure , a week to 10 days is typical for Water Based , however when you are at the auto-body supply , they have a product called either hand glaze , or swirl remover , its a cleaner /wax sort of product used to finish off new finishes , it doesn't contain wax or silicons , new finishes unless cure like to streak wax , even water base … , you can also use micro mesh sand paper , on the RO sander .. Woodcraft sells it in a 5 pack I believe here is Vid I did on rubbing a finish http://charlesneilwoodworking.com/category_player.php?type=1&cat=3&video=rubbingout.flv
hope all this helps


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

one last thing, polys are the toughest to rub, shellacs , lacquers and acrylics are the easiest , poly are tough , like a care tire , so they remain somewhat pliable ,makes polishing harder to do , newer ones are better , water base does better than oil base , but all finishes can be rubbed , but if you are planning to rub always apply an extra coat to do so , some water base finishes can ghost if you cut thru from one layer into the other , because they dont burn in together like solvent based products, or polys , so a way around that is to apply a second coat as soon as the the last coat has tacked , just enough to lightly touch , oil finishes require and extra 2 or more coats, same with gels , they are much thinner films, and require going very gently , always leave edges alone , they will rub thru super quick , so be careful


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## rolltopbox (Mar 16, 2010)

Foul language is good!

I now have that flowed out surface that I remember from the day…..

I also have some runs that I will be glad to give away. But I can see what I was doing wrong and that my present equipment may work out just fine. It is a HF HVLP unit like this: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=44677

I am using the smallest needle, 1.5mm, that came with it.

Thanks, CharlesNeil, for sharing your knowledge.


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

the issue with these like the earlex 3000 is they spray the water base but barely , they just dont have power to atomize the heavier fluid fully, thus me saying use the smaller needle/nozzle and increasing the fluid, it helps break the fluid up more , the finer the droplets the smoother it will layout , with less material , my instruction is opposite most , most say go to a heavy needle/nozzle, you can but then you get a flood of material with very liittle break up … again back to the water hose , hold the thumb tight over the end and you get spray , back off , well you get the point …


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## rolltopbox (Mar 16, 2010)

The earlex 5000 looks great and will be added to the list. I have been foam brushing various waterborne finishes for two years. The things I make are a challange to finish. http://www.ovaltambour.com I wanted to try spraying so I looked around and found favorable reviews for this machine. I hope it will get me through my current production season of Tambour Desks and Oval Tambour Jewelry Boxes.

In the day I finished my work with varnish or Velvit Oil. i now have to use more responsible finishing methods.


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## rolltopbox (Mar 16, 2010)

I am not using a sanding sealer on this work, I just spray the pre-cat on the sanded bare wood. Does anyone have any thoughts about any benefits for sanding sealer? I am finding mixed opinions on the need for sanding sealer.


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

a sanding sealer is basically finish with a sterate in it to make it sand easier , it does not help adhesion , it simply makes it easier to get a defuzzed surface , because of the sterate that causes it to be a bit softer , high builds are not a good idea ,as long as you are getting a good surface, stay with it , I rarely use it ..but in large case's or production work the ease of sanding is a plus , apply one good wet coat , let dry , scuff sand smooth and move on


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## KentS (May 27, 2009)

Interesting thread. Thanks for all the great info Charles. I have you beat though. I've been spraying since I was 12, and I'm 57 now.

I certainly don't have anything to add, other than Charles is right on in his answers, especiall about the language. I think the most frustrating thing I've done in the shop is to teach someone how to spray. It seems the only way to really learn is to just do it, and do it, and do it and--------------well, you get the picture.


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

Kent , I was the guy back in the 70's , who was doing all the scenes and trick painting on the van's and hot rods, did the van fest , had a van, air compressor , air burshes , had to haul a generator to run the compressor , had the van full of lacquer paints , and not enough sense to not smoke with the van full of all that stuff , had 4 vehicles in hot rod magazine ,Hung out alot in Myrtle Beach SC, remember when the group Alabama played at the Bowery , for little bit of nothing , but then I got to liking wood , go figure… the three scents that did me in was gasoline, perfume and the smell of cherry being sawn , not to mention the smell of lacquer , then somewhere along the line , came, quit drinking , no red meat , quit smokin, and water base finishes , so now days , I just try to remember the good old days , when I was bullit proof , and help the folks not trip over all the rocks you and I have … Glad to see a " dues paid" guy … Ya know , when I teach a finishing class , I get Ed in to help me teach spraying , because like you I have done it so long , I just dont think about it , like you I look at the sheen following the gun , and "Just know" when I got it right , maybe we should start a thread of "war stories"... name it "Old Fa**'s and all the stuff we forgot "... good to hear from you … oh yea … and now days I can type about 15 words a min, and you can read half of them… my oh my .. how life changes … later y'all


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## KentS (May 27, 2009)

Charles, now that we have hi-jacked this thread, you are bringing back old memories. I've even painted a van, complete with desert scene, pick-ups, cars, a John Deere tractor, and even a couple of boats. I learned to spray lacquer on shutters--do not try this at home! I've done complete houses, inside and out, and no telling what else.

And after all that, just last week I found myself painting a picture frame for my wife with a can of Krylon--go figure.


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

I dare think we are the only ones who have run the full mile , its the older guys with all the years under the belt , who will help the rest , what its all about , hope others will chime in , for all reading , remember its all in the details , its not the big things its the little things , like getting a decent saw to learn to cut a dovetail, or a good spray gun to learn to spray , think of it like this , its like buying a lawn mower that has a set of spiral blades, that you push back and forth , it will do the job , but then you can get one with a motor , they are both "lawn mowers", but the effort and result are far different , I am always amazed , at how we buy the same stuff that didnt work last time , expecting it work this time , because its cheap, there is a name for this , it just escapes me at the moment … he h eh e.. dinner is a waiting .. tomorrow y'all


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Wow Charles is the free version of Finishing A-Z ? Good stuff. I learned to spray on Antique cars . We would spray them right in the shop ,wet down the floors and use acrylic lacquer so it could be rubbed out. No booth and against the fire code. So I just got through painting a car opened the door and there stands the fire inspector. He says your not painting in there are you ? ,as the air, my face , my close are all red from paint.
All I could say was were not suppose to paint with out a booth, then he said alright then as long as your not painting and then he left (a very cool guy.
As far as what we are when we keep buying cheap stuff that doesn't work , Would it be called dumb of cheap or both….


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## bill1352 (Nov 8, 2009)

I like the micro mesh for buffing out the finish. I watched your Woodcraft video, Charles, it helped. I had trouble the first few times. I called MicroMesh & they said I was useing a orbital sander that was too fast. They said I needed to be down around 2500 rpm. I got a Harbor Frieght polisher for $17 and it did help. i still get a shadow in the finish, sort of a cloud, instead of clear. i even waited 2 weeks after the last coat on 1 table top. The Micro Mesh sure does give a baby's behind smooth finish. Now to get the last of that cloud out of the final buff. A guy at Woodcraft said I was getting mosture under the finish and to try a water based finish. I'm hoping he is right. I have a table curing now.


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

Bill , I don't agree with the water under the finish, if you have that using a solvent based, you should see it in the un rubbed finish , its called blushing , it where the finish absorbs moisture from the air or usually from a compressed air system that is not filtered to remove the moisture from the air line, rubbing will usually produce a sort of hazy look , using a good lambs wool pad and either some wax or as listed above the swirl remover /hand glaze takes care of it , what you are seeing is a combination of the super fine scratches as well as often a light residue , when a clear finish is scuff sanded notice how it turns white its a minor amount that will hang on the surface and make it cloudy , the glaze /swirl remover and lambs wool bonnet help to remove it , wax will as well, the problem with wax is it will also add sheen , so if you want a satin , and you rub to a 1500 with the abralon , then wax you will get about a 3000 , or semi gloss , the glaze swirl /remover will add some sheen but not as much as wax, the other side to it is it will clear up after some use , and regular dusting, but I am not real good at waiting, so I use the swirl remover , as well when you rub a finish you "open it up", meaning , just like planing a piece of rough kiln dried lumber , once you remove the outer surface , it is now open to further dry , or acclimate , finish will do the same , once rubbed to wait a day or so for it to do a final surface cure , it seems to finish up alot better , solvent based products are worse than water , solvent based post cat as well as pre cat do better because they are chemically cured , shellacs, and nitrocellulose lacquers are the worst , so a light scuff with a fine paper and then allow them to cure down longer really helps , as well the same with oils and gel varnishes .The link I posted above at bowling beat they sell the lambs wool pads as I recall, it may seem odd to be looking at a bowling store for rubbing products, but its the products they use to polish bowling balls , which are plastics, and guess what finishes are , they are all a form of plastic…


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

A decent read , and will help you understand http://www.jetblackcar.com/8.html


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## HokieJoe (Apr 7, 2010)

Thanks for the tips Charles and everyone. My first experience using my Earlex was with Minwax Polycrylic. If I recall correctly, this is a water-based lacquer of sorts. Anyway, my one-time experience echoes what Charles said After practicing on some old masonite, I shot the first coat on my project. It had a rough appearance when wet, but after drying it leveled out very nicely. I scuffed lightly between each coat with a green Scotchbrite pad. I'm very pleased with the results. I'd use the polycrylic again, but I'm building a keyboard/mouse tray and I want something more durable. The General Finishes product looks to fit the bill.

I plan on buying their enduro pre-cat sealcoat and topcoat, but I wonder if dewaxed shellac wouldn't serve just as well for the sealcoat.


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## bill1352 (Nov 8, 2009)

Thanks Charles. I have seen that bowling ball supplier stuff before. I almost bought some but then I watched your video on micro mesh & got that instead. I was using solvent based products but I will be using a water based poly from now on. easier clean up, less smell and from all accounts a better finish. I was wondering about what the guy at Woodcraft said. It didn't seem right. It was a very clear finish before I used the micro mesh. I thought about using auto polishing stuff because it works so well on acrylics I turn but figured I better leave well enough alone. Thanks again Charles.


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## HokieJoe (Apr 7, 2010)

I bought my stuff today: Pre-Cat sanding sealer + topcoat. I also bought the 1.0mm spray tip because I plan on shooting my piece with black TransTint dye before the topcoat is applied. Per Charles, I'll use the 1.5mm tip for the sanding sealer and Pre-Cat.


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

Hokie, two points here , if you got precat sanding sealer be sure the topcoat is precat as well or you could have adhesion issues , second, trans tint is great , however for black, check out the local craft store and see if you can get some India ink, its black , and its real serious about it , a good "slug" in your mix will give you the blackest black you can get, most blacks are actually super dark blues or greens , dont get the ink on anything , like I said , its real serious about coloring about anything , really likes skin as well !


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## rolltopbox (Mar 16, 2010)

Next question. After spraying a few minutes I get this little cone of finish buildup on the tip. It can get an eight of an inch long and really interfere with the spray pattern. Is this normal or can it be avoided somehow?


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

Roll top , yep that be Waterbase and small needle/nozzles , I just keep a wet rag in hand , and wipe it off , remember water base is thicker , also its very high solids compared to solvent ,( also why its more expensive) so it will gather on the tip , you can add about a table spoon full of denatured alcohol to a qt, it will help some, also will help level out ( relives surface tension), I am always reluctant to post this as if there is a finish failure , it would be blamed on the alcohol, but I have never had any issues … so Just FYI 
additionally you will have the issues associated with alcohol, flammability as well as smell , so I say again, try it first , before committing to the project , and be sure ventilation and personal safety is covered well


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## rolltopbox (Mar 16, 2010)

That was quick! This thread will be the cat's meow to the next poor soul that follows in my feet prints.

I just sprayed another coat on the work surfaces of the three desks I am making and the film has flowed out to a mirror smooth surface. This is simply wonderful..!! I can't thank you enough. I no longer drink much but I'd be glad to sport a Black Russian with a Baileys on the side, straight up, for you should our paths ever cross!

Another quick question; what happens when a duck flies upside down?


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

I am afraid to ask, but I will, I have no idea , so lets have it( good to see you in a better mood)


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

It quacks up


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

Ill never learn… he he h eh e..


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## rolltopbox (Mar 16, 2010)




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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

One of my guys ( ace hole in one), emailed me about the build up on the nozzle end suggested using some chap stick around the edge , havent tried it , but I will sounds very feasable , He also brought up a good point of the wiping off can press the semi dried residue into the opening, further complicating the issue, he is correct, i can see that happening , so watch it


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## rolltopbox (Mar 16, 2010)

"Yes, Sir"..!!

Bruce - standing at attention and saluting….................


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

CharlesNeil…..........I gotta say that reading this post, that you are a pleasure. So nice to see/read things that come from a lifetime of experience and as far as I am concerened,you know what you speak about.

Finishing is a "trade" of its own. The combinations and permutaions of what can go wrong is virtually endless. Once again I remain convinced that "experiene is a very tough teacher"......test first,......... lesson later.

I have taken many finishing courses over the years and have decades of time spent with a spray gun in my hand. A good finisher can make junk look priceless and a bad finisher can ruin a priceless piece in seconds.


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

moron , man oh man im with ya , read the tag line under this video , you might like it


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## Porosky (Mar 10, 2009)

This has been one of the most informative posts to date.

So am I sucking wind with my gravity feed Husky HVLP from HD, trying to spray water-based poly? I'm sure a Earlax 5000 would solve quite a bit of my problem, being able to change the size of the spray nozzle, pressure feed, easy to clean. I love to spray water-based poly but with my current set up it can be a real cluster F at times.

Also the finish sanding / buffing tips here are priceless. I can't wait to get some supplies and take my work to a new level. Thanks


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## reggiek (Jun 12, 2009)

Just wanted to echo that this post has been most informative….I wanted to thank all that participated.


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

Poroskywood, two things, Im not familar with the HD spray gun, am assuming its a gravity fed HVLP, second , a good gravity fed with a compressor works quite well, not sure the turbine would help all that much, one of the things I do know, there can be alot of difference in spray guns , even if they look the same, the gravity fed HVLPs are the oldest design , they been around for about 20 + years, I bought one paid 400.00+ in 1982 , still have it , the difference is in the machining , and how well they are done , meaning inconsistent needle /nozzle sizing, how well the needles seat into the nozzle , all play an important part , in many cases these guns are made in the same offshore factory, just like jointers and planers, and so forth , the difference is what the retailer or alledged manufacture dictate as the acceptable standards , so the good stuff goes one place and the not so good goes somewhere else , when you see 19.95 guns, look out , in my experience its someone selling off the junk, not sure about your gun, I just went and looked at the Homedepot guns , they look fine , I suggest you do 2 things, first pull the needle /nozzle , air cap and all apart, clean them well , water base can build up inside and clog everything up some, use MEK to clean it , if you have to , it will dissolve anything, dont use it or leave it in a plastic cup , it will dissolve it ( really) , use a scotch bright to clean the needle and inside the nozzle ( wrapped on a pencil) also the air cap, be sure all the holes are open, if not a small sewing needle will help clean them , once you have the gun clean , make sure all is working well, spray some water thru it , as long as it is breaking up the water and you have a good consistent fan ,you are ok, 
now to the product , thin it about 10% , strain it thru a med mesh strainer , when you clean the gun ,remove the cup , sometimes there is a micro mesh strainer just under the cup , in the fluid tube , remove it and clean it , or just remove it , water base is thicker , the strainers they install are often too small to keep the fluid moving, also be sure the vent hole is clear , as long as it moves well thru the strainer you are ok, if not thin a bit more , it should flow with a continuious stream , nice steady flow thru the strainer , adjust your air to about 25 to 30 lbs at the gun, and open the fluid knob , you should get a nice even flow , fan about 6" wide , if to much fluid back off , to llittle tighten the fan up a bit to give more concentration, you may need to increase or decrease the pressure, you want a nice smooth flow from the gun, with out alot of overspray ( high pressure), now i feel sure I havent told you anything you didnt already know , but there are alot who dont .. thus the write up …..I will tell you this, the HVLP gun I have is the one Woodcraft sells with a 1.5 needle/nozzle and i spray with it all the time, solvent, dye, stain, and water base , does well… but i have found the filter under the cup can be a issue, so go there first… both of mine i removed the filters for Waterbase


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

water base build up on tip, UPDATE… I didnt have any chap stick, but i got to thinking , so I tried some http://www.woodcraft.com/Catalog/ProductPage.aspx?prodid=462 , on the air cap , just a light coat on the face and wiped a little around the outlet hole , wiped it back, I use this on my saws and things, it doesnt rub off and seems to be water resistent and dries hard, I have been spraying off and on for about an hour and no build up , so maybe , if i were to use the gun for shellac or solvent , I would clean it with some alcohol or lacquer thinner , just to be sure no chance of contamination, thus far with the water base , no issues, no signs of contamination, Just FYI


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

Ok to be sure , I just switched to the enduro var, in my woodriver HVLP with a 1.5 , it strained well out of the can , I had the fluid knob open about all the way and had to go to a 3 1/2 to 4" fan to get a nice wet, coat..Just FYI , about 25 lbs of pressure at the gun ( no filter) ( no build up )


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

ok I reduced it about 5% now have a 6" fan and its laying alot better and wetting up faster


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## rolltopbox (Mar 16, 2010)

So I could spray the pre-cat urethane using my compressor and a gun? My compressor is only 3/4 HP. Which gun should I be looking at? Does this mean I don't need to use a "turbine" sprayer?


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

it does rolltop, a 3/4 horse compressor , not sure there, it has to be able to put out about 50lbs at the compressor and sustain it for as long as you will be spraying, alot of guys use a pancake so it would proably work , ( 50 lbs at the compressor because you will lose pressure thru the line) , the thing about a compresor is how long it will maintain the pressure , thats why larger tanks ,and compressors are used for sanding, but spraying small items or a cabinet , dont take all that much air volume , you proably would not be able to spray continious , but for short periods it should work, but do look to getting a filter for your gun, a water / oil filter 
something lik e this http://www.diytools.com.au/default.asp?page=productdetails&ID={F2D16E5E-3451-4CDD-9C53-D6DC1E439B96}&utm_source=getprice&utm_medium=cpc

be sure to put it at the gun, not at the compressor, air from a compressor is hot , thus the condensation, it will condense in the air hose , and you will get water , google air compressor water filters and so forth there is a ton of info , but you do want a clean air supply , this is the gun I have and like , I have 2 http://www.woodcraft.com/Catalog/ProductPage.aspx?prodid=25126&ss=7bc6218f-6447-487c-95d0-b97107062e84 , they are not expensive , but seem to do a good job , especially for the $, its what I am spraying with right now , tell you what else you can do with small compressors, is to get one of those tanks you fill with air to carry for flat tires and rig it up with your compressor , so you have greater air storage volume .


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

last thought on the woodriver spray gun ( I go spray and something else comes to mind , sorry), it comes with a 1.4 needle/ nozzle , this will handle about all your spraying needs , in as much as finishes, dyes and stains go , it will not spray paint , to spray paint you will need to go to a 2.0 needle /nozzle set up , and you will have to thin the paint… these are not the best guns for paint, ( latex), turbines are better , because they pressurize the fluid helping to deliver the fluid to the tip, but even then you need a larger needle/nozzle , and about 10% thinning for latex


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## Porosky (Mar 10, 2009)

All good info, I'll need to evaluate my situation, based on all this great information. With this information I'm sure I'll be able to make some good decisions. Thanks (I'll remember this as the day I discussed spraying water-based poly with Charles Neil)!


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## HokieJoe (Apr 7, 2010)

Hey Charles, thanks for suggestions on the pre-cat. Yes, I bought the pre-cat top coat as well. As for the india ink, I've heard of this stuff before but never used it. I have used TransFast black dye before and liked the results. Why I went with the TranTint was for the NGR properties. Plus, I just wanted to try the product out. Will india ink raise the grain? If so, that's fine…I just like to know what I'm getting in to should I try it.


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

hokie it will raise the grain some as its water base, I believe you can also get a alcohol base, which would not


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## rolltopbox (Mar 16, 2010)

The RO pneumatic sander you are using in the rubbing out video looks like it has a different H&L pad than my electric Porter Cable RO sander. Your pad looks cushy and mine is harder.

Bruce - let's see how long it takes for an answer this time….....


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

wow I missed this one.. big time…. let me look and see what the pad was.. its a interface pad as I recall.. but I will get the answer.. this showed up on my blog stats, or I would have missed it completely,,, hey if I havent answered in 24 hours email me.,I missed it.. [email protected] , just here to help if i can


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## rolltopbox (Mar 16, 2010)

Thanks everyone for the help. I am now spraying a small run of jewelry boxes that have parts of all sizes and shapes. I think it is going well and so much faster than brushing..!!


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## barryvabeach (Jan 25, 2010)

To the OP, I love the Enduro / General Finishes products and I have been spraying a lot of the pre cat lately.

Charles, I know you are a fan of the Woodriver gun and I bought one a few days ago and was pretty impressed at the quality for the price. One concern though was the limited parts - On my other guns, the needle nozzle sets are available every .2 ( so I can buy 1.5, 1,7, 1,9 etc) yet the woodriver only offers 1.4 and 2.0 - which in my mind is an awfully big spread. Also, the gasket on the aircap - is there any way to buy that separately so that it can be replaced years down the road. Finally, I looked at the mini gun, but was wasn't too impressed on the machining of the aircap ) there were no holes other that the fan - have you used the mini gun to spray water based?


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

Barry I have not used the mini for water base, its air caps and needle nozzles are too small, water base cannot be thinned enough to do super thin coatings which this is designed to do, i do have one, I use it for dyes and shellac in thinner applications

the 1.4 is what I use all the time either water or solvent, I also have the higher end guns where i can get all the various smaller increments, but the average home guy , and the typical use of the gun the 1.4 is all that is needed, by simply controlling the amount of air pressure , and the amount of fluid, you can regulate atomization well , for auto finishing the various other needle/nozzles are needed , as the new base coat clear coats can be pretty sensitive , and pressure , and atomization can affect color match , but not the case in woodowrking, we typically spray clear coats, dyes, stains and an ocassional toner ( color ,clear mixed) , we dont have all the metallic coatings and so forth


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## barryvabeach (Jan 25, 2010)

Charles, thanks for the quick reply. Woodcraft just put this gun on sale and I will probably buy another just to keep on hand for spare parts, etc. I was surprised that the WR did as well as it did with a 1.4, on my other guns ( $85 -to $300+)I can't spray waterbased with anything smaller than 1.7. Thanks for recommending the gun.


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## rolltopbox (Mar 16, 2010)

My HF rig (same as Rockler unit) does great with a 1.5mm tip. With Enduro and High Performance.


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## DAWG (Oct 23, 2009)

WOW !!!!! I feel like I (we) hit the lottery, when I bought my sprayer from Rockler I searched all over the internet for information on spraying, thinning and what to use where. I bought the Rockler unit a couple of years ago and mostly use it to spray Lacquer and it seems to work great. Like Charles said you just have to practice and get use to how much your laying down. Thank you Charles for all the information you are sharing on this post, it is invaluable. I will admit I will have to read this over and over to pack all this into my head.

Question: What is the best way to spray paint and the best equipment to spray paint? I used my Rockler to spray Oil Base paint and only one out of three pieces had a smooth finish the rest had the orange peel. Was it not thinned enough? I thinned with about a shot glass of paint thinner.


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

smooth is a direct relation to flow out… meaning if its cool and the paint is drying slow, it will flow out more before it "tacks" if its hot and drying fast its obviously the reverse. THe orange peel says it didnt flow out enough, could be numerous reasons, but thinning it a little more would help alot, how much is impossible to say with out knowing how thin it is to begin with, and every manufacture makes them different. like colors, there is no standard , so you have to just experiment a little, a general rule of thum for me , is if it will flow easily thru a medium mesh strainer, meaning fairly rapidly, it is thin enough, this is for Oil base, usually you cannot get water base to flow rapidly thru a mediumn mesh but it should flow smoothly


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## DAWG (Oct 23, 2009)

Thanks for the advice Charles again it is just a matter of experimenting with your equipment and different products, but it helps alot to have someone with your experience to put us in the ballpark of where to start. Thanks again for being so willing to help.


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