# Squaring stock: Jointer Plane vs Foreplane



## ChrisCarr

I am looking to start woodworking with hand tools exclusively. I have gotten very good with cutting mortises by hand over the last year. I can cut them almost perfectly square.

I want to be able to square my own rough stock without power machinery and am looking for hand planes. I have experience using only a no.4 plane for mostly small sections of work (smoothing).

When flattening a board's face by hand i have read your suppose to start with a foreplane to remove stock quickly,then move to a jointer-plane to get it nice and flatter. My question is can i get by with only 1 of them?

I figure the jointer-plane would give a flatter surface because its longer, but am not sure. I want to buy my planes new or in good condition used, and buying both would be too expensive. I want to get into all hand tool use not only because it seems very rewarding but because of my lack of space and money for a shop right now.


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## Smile_n_Nod

The length of the plane is not the only factor that's important; how you sharpen the iron is just as important (if not more) to the job at hand. You want a jack (or fore) plane's iron to have a large camber, to remove stock quickly. The jointer (or try) plane's iron should have less camber, to flatten the board and remove the high spots left by the jack plane. Finally, the smoothing plane's iron should have little or no camber, to leave the smoothest surface. (It's like golf clubs; the longer ones not only have longer shafts, but the club face is also more vertical; with planes, the right length is important, but the shape of the cutting iron is just as important, if not more so).

Ian Kirby (I think) recommends buying a size 5 or 5 1/2 plane and several cutting irons. You would then sharpen each iron to perform the job required (thicknessing, flattening, or smoothing). You could use a size 6 plane, instead; and I've even heard that some old masters used a No. 7 for everything.

Here's a good article on how bench planes work together:

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/2-CoarseMediumFine.pdf


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## Smile_n_Nod

Also, if you don't mind doing a little work to tune them up, you can buy an old Stanley jointer for about $75, an old jack plane for about $35, and an old smoother for about $30 (these are eBay prices; you can pay more, but if you're patient, you should be able to buy at these prices); you might spend another $50 for something to remove rust, and a sandpaper-and-glass system to flatten the soles. It'll take a few hours to flatten and tune them up, but you'll have the right three planes and won't have to constantly worry about switching out irons on a single plane.


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## NiteWalker

Christian Becksvoort did an article, One Bench Plane Can Do it All where he has a LN 62 and 4 different blades for most tasks. I plan on doing the same with my veritas low angle jack since my only other plane for now is a veritas low angle block plane.


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## Smile_n_Nod

The downside to using one plane for everything (with multiple irons) is having to change and re-align the irons constantly. There are upsides, too, but this one downside is what steered me away from the one-plane approach. Different strokes, as they say.


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## Mosquito

This is the line-up I've been using the past couple of days to square up some stock










That's a Stanley #5c, #7c, and #4 1/2 (#4 works too). In that order. I hit it on the diagonals with the #5 to roughly even it out, then I retract the iron a little and make a few passes lengthwise. After that I use the #7 lengthwise until I get a full shaving all the way down whatever I'm squaring up. Then I switch to the #4 1/2 to smooth it out, and or correct any twist that may be present.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Coarse, medium and fine translates to jack, jointer and smoother. Or 5, 8 and 4. Go w/ pre-war Stanley planes and it won't have to break the bank. Most do not need lapping or evaporust baths. Just iron, chibbreaker and cap work and they're good to go. Good luck!


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## NiteWalker

Brett, changing irons and adjusting them is very easy on the veritas LAJ. It has set screws to keep the blade in line and a nice norris style adjuster.


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## ChrisCarr

Is there anyway to use a jointer-plane todo the work of a foreplane/ no. 5/6? different angle blade, etc?
I can only afford one and want to get something that works out the box (sharpening/honing is the only thing i want to do when i get it).

Also can a hand held Power plane substitute the foreplane for initial roughing?


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## sikrap

You can use a jointer to do the rough work, but you'll want an extra iron and you will probably need to play with the frog to get the type of cut you want. The extra iron will cost at least $20, so I would suggest getting a nice used Stanley #7 and a nice Stanley #6. IMHO, the extra $40 or so will be worth the time and aggravation saved. There are several of us here that sell planes and most of us would ship tools ready to work when you get them. If you buy a #7 of ebay, you will probably pay $80-100 and then you're going to need to clean it, tune it and work the iron. Then you'll need to buy the second iron. If you check with DonW or some of the other guys here (including me), you could probably get both planes for around $150. Whichever way you decide to go, don't forget about getting sharpening supplies. Also, you might want to check out the dvd's "Hand Plane Basics" and /or "Coarse, Medium, Fine". Both are by Chris Schwartz.


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## Smile_n_Nod

Thanks, NiteWalker. I'd heard that, but forgot since I don't have a Varitas LAJ.


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## ChrisCarr

Is camber on the iron really a must? Or could i get away with the iron straight?

Also should the corners of the iron be rounded on a jointer or no. 5/6? or are they just rounded for smoothing plane iron's?


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## waho6o9

A slight camber prevents the edge and or edges from digging into your work and causing a ridge.

+1 for Don W.


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## nwbusa

I've a Veritas LAJ and it's a great plane, but lately I've been using my scrub plane for the initial work. It takes the lumber off with the quickness.


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## donwilwol

I just sold a decent #7 here for $70. It would have done what you wanted. I've got several #4, #5 and I think there's a Union #6 listed.

I hate changing blades. It drives me nuts, and I don't understand why people do it for the price of vintage stanley planes. That's my opinion, and we all work different, so I'm not judging others, I'm stating when I work, I want to grab a plane and use it.

Dave and others above gave some good advice. If you can only afford 1 veritas plane, then buy 3 vintage stanley's.


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## Smile_n_Nod

I think camber is important when a jack plane is used to reduce the thickness of a board. If you use a jack plane like a jointer or smoother, it probably doesn't matter.

When reducing the thickness of a board, you push the plane either straight across the grain or diagonally across it. The cambered iron works like a cross-cut saw, in that the edges of the iron sever the fibers of the wood rather than shearing them off. If you push a jack plane with a straight iron across a board, the iron will lift and tear the fibers rather than actually cutting them. A cambered iron, whether on a jack plane or a scrub plane, make a lot of sense for planing across the grain.

Camber on a jointer or a smoother helps too, but since these planes are usually pushed along the grain, the camber (or rounded corners) helps to reduce plane tracks rather than to cross-cut the fibers.


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## mandatory66

I have several planes & the one I find most useful & use the most is a LN #6.I find the #5 too light and the #7 too long for general use. I primarily work with Oak. I also prefer a high angle plane that you can adjust the depth of the cut on the fly as you start to plane, it's a matter of control.I also use a small amount of camber. You would be surprised at how fast you can true up a board across grain.


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## ChrisCarr

Thanks Brett, makes sense now.

Would a toothed blade be a substitute for cross-grain work instead of a blade with camber?

Also is a #7 & 8 the same? Just the #8 is a little longer?


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## sikrap

Chris, a 7 does the same as an 8. The 8 is just bigger. I'm not sure what you mean by "cross grain work". If you're trying to dimension stock, you should be planing somewhat across the grain, as Brett described above. Personally, I go about 30 degrees across the grain when smoothing.


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## ChrisCarr

Is there any reason to choose a #8 over a #7?

by cross-grain i meant , when taking cups out of boards, arn't you suppose to start completely 90 degrees to the grain?


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## donwilwol

The #8 is bigger and a little harder to handle. Its probably not the best one to start with.

I don't start at 90. More like 30-45 degrees.


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## ArlinEastman

Chris

First from my experience there is a difference between making a board Flat or Square. There are specific planes for each one.

To make a long board flat you will need a Stanley or Equilient #7 or #8. For boards that are shorter ie less then 30" you can use a #5 or #6.

For making a Square shoulder or tennon you will need a Shoulder plane stanley #90, #92, or #93
These get into flat areas that need squaring.

Hope it helps
Arlin


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## ChrisCarr

I am just looking for something to flatten faces of boards and straighten edges, thicknessing can be done with my lunchbox planer i have. Some of the stuff in this thread has confused me a little. Do i really need multiple planes for making boards true?

Could I buy a #7 and get away with just that for flattening faces and straightening edges ? (with a straight iron/no camber)

Thanks for all the help guys


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## donwilwol

What exactly does "flattening the face" mean. A #7 will certainty flatten faces and edges. That's what its for. Its the resizing that requires the cambered iron.


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## ChrisCarr

By flattening i meant "jointing", doing what a power jointer would do, face , and edges. That basically what i am trying to find a hand plane for.

I don't understand what resizing is, is is thicknessing ? I thought camber was for removing large amounts of wood in less time than a straight iron?


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## waho6o9

Get a #7 from DonW. and you will have fun.
As you learn, like myself, you will say, wow, if I only
had a #4 I could smooth the face of this board.
Enjoy the journey.


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## donwilwol

By flattening i meant "jointing", doing what a power jointer would do, face , and edges. *Then a #7 is perfect.*

By resizing, I did mean reducing thickness, or what you'd do with a planer, just in a different way. A camber *is* for removing large amounts of material. The more camber an iron has, the faster it removes material.


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## 8iowa

At the Woodworking in America conference I sat on the front row while Christopher Schwarz explained his approach ; The first plane he uses is a #6 with the iron sharpened with a camber of 8 inch radius. Using this plane across the grain removes wood rapidly, quickly removing imperfections such as twist., He then uses the #7 to flatten the board, removing the "ridges" left from the #6. Finally, the #4 smooths the wood, eliminating the need for sanding. He puts a slight rounding on the ends of the irons on his #7 and #4 planes.

Schwarz's book, "Handplane Essentials" has a lot of valuable detail.


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## ChrisCarr

Cool, so if i get this right ….

#6 = Rough removal for hogging material off quickly
#7 = Jointing
#4 = Smoothing/ same function as a sander

I am interested in seeing Schwarz's book. I think I'll try and find a paper copy of it somewhere. Woodworking books are the only books i have the interest to read, lol

Thanks, you guys have been very helpful


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Chris - You might consider a #5 for hogging vs. a #6. Size and weight matters when you're working larger stock; you'll tire quickly. Scrub planes (#40, for example) are small because scrubbing is double the work of a jack plane, typically; a good scrub can take more than a 16th of an inch each pass of edges of 3/4" stock.

I second the motion re: Handplane Essentials. It's an excellent reference book.


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## ChrisCarr

How much does a #7 take off per pass?


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop

An analogy is helpful. As in water, the jack makes waves on the surface with it's open mouth, deeper set and cambered iron. Especially when cutting across the faces of boards. Use winding sticks along the way to ensure you're solving twist, wind, cupping, etc. problems and not creating them. When all looks good, you move to the jointer. That has much finer set than the jack, and cuts off the tops of the waves. How much to take off at each pass with the jointer? It depends. Really. You will dial the iron more or less, on the fly, while working the board, based on feedback you're getting. But finer as you go.

When the jointer is done / cutting near full-length shavings, you should be at a fine settingl. And at that point you'll likely think you're done. But the smoother does as is named, and bring the material to a ready-for-finish state if all goes to plan. And it's setting is very fine.


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## donwilwol

Maybe this will help some to… 
https://timetestedtools.wordpress.com/2012/05/02/what-planes-do-i-need/


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## ChrisCarr

For a jack plane, is a low angle plane better than a standard one for rough removal?

What does a low angle do differently?


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop

IMO, no it's not.

The low angle jack (I have a #62, for example) is not so much a jack as it is an oversized block plane.


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## donwilwol

I agree with Smitty. Low angle was intended for end grain work. It work well on some figured wood in a smoothing capacity, but its more of a specialized plane.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop

... because 11" +/- is too long for a smoother…

Good point with end grain, Don. I didn't answer that part of the question.


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## donwilwol

I really wish I'd gone with the #164 instead of the #62.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop

:-O


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## donwilwol

Here is a #7 , *very* reasonable perfect for what you want. Its not mine and I have no knowledge of it otyher than I just came across it.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CRAFTMAN-PLANE-CLOSE-TO-A-7-C-STANLEY-PLANE-USED-/120980630463?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c2b01ebbf


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## ChrisCarr

I was too late the bidding ended


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## nmssis

I know it's been few years since this thread began but I find myself in the same boat asking the same question posted by Brett.

The flea markets around here are mostly thrift and jewelry so that's not a reliable source and craigslist has less around my area. Only e-bay seem to be a place for me to pick up a Jack, Jointer and Smoothing…and not knowing what brand is reliable n what to stay away from does not make my search easy.

I'm delving into small wood project like instruments and small tables n chairs. any help for the new guy would be much appreciated.


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## jmartel

> For a jack plane, is a low angle plane better than a standard one for rough removal?
> 
> What does a low angle do differently?
> 
> - ChrisCarr


Neither is better than the other. The low angle can easily get a steeper bevel on the blade so that it has the same cutting angle as a normal jack. Then there is absolutely no difference. You can have multiple blades. Lower angle for most work, and higher angle for figured wood since it reduces/eliminates tearout. I've got a low angle smoother that I have multiple blades for and change it out depending on the wood I'm planing.

If you are buying new, then I see no reason to get a normal bevel down plane. A bevel up is more versatile. But, buying used bevel down is much cheaper than buying new and works just as well. Just might require some rehabbing.


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