# Harbor Freight = an exercise in readjusting your expectations ... it is what it is.



## b2rtch

I have a lot of these clamps that I use very often, I never had one issue with them.
In my opinion they are excellent. 
My opinion is the same for their pipe clamps with stand, they are excellent










The same is not true of these ones which are pure junk


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## Dwain

Agree with the above statement. I have a lot of these in 6" and 12" Any bigger and I think more pressure is required and these just won't take. They are great for small light pressure clamping. I wouldn't put myself in any sort of injury prone position that depended upon the quality of the clamps you speak of. Again, I agree, the black and orange clamps are absolutely garbage. Not even close to what I want as a part time hobbiest…


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## Howie

I have 12 F clamps and nary a problem. I'll admit they aren't top shelf but they do what I ask them to within reason.
The "orange" ones are junk.
If Bessies prices were a little more reasonable I'd buy them but for a hobby I don't see spending that much.
Just my HO


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## ssnvet

the pipe clamps with stands I got look good to go….. provided they thread my black iron pipe without any problems… it's probably worth noting that these were also not nearly as deep of a discount ($10 vs. $14)

also… please note that my review is for the 'F' style bar clamps shown in my photos…. I have no experience with their orange and black quick clamps, like the ones Bert is showing. I know this got all mixed up on Russel's review, and I'd prefer to not get them mixed up here.


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## MikeGager

i have a bunch of the F clamps and have had good luck with them. i always visually check them for defects at the store before buying so maybe thats why

the black and orange ones are great for light duty clamping but usually break if you squeeze to hard. that said i use them all the time anyways


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## TheOldTimer

I bought 16 "F" clamps several years ago when I built all new cabinets for the kitchen. The clamps are still in use today without any problems. I also have three HVLP conversion spray guns that work very well with water base finshes. I do not buy cutting tool from them or saw blades. I have been using there pancake compressor for about five years and it is still working fine. The 60 gallon compressor has been in use for 5 years and still works like a champ. I keep fresh oil in the compressor and have a automatic drain valve in the bottom of the tank. As stated above, HF is what it is, not intended for industrial use but for my retirement woodworking budget it has its place in my shop. I would love to be in a position to buy all american made products but on a retirement budget, I have to buy imports due to the price of tools. Like everything else, the price just goes up and up especially on hardwood lumber.
I would like to have a shop full of Powermatic tools, Festools and Bessy clamps but the dollars are not there.


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## BrandonW

I've had great luck with these blue clamps. I usually go to the store and pick out the nicer ones, but still, haven't had any problems yet. I've purchased a bad pipe clamp from them (http://lumberjocks.com/BrandonW/blog/27698), and like others have said those orange ones are pure junk.


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## dkirtley

I look at it this way, I have a big plastic bin full of the 12" and a few 15". That means I can pull out enough clamping power for whatever job I need. I don't have to do some silly dance to get enough clamping force. I don't have to over tighten them. I will always get a better glue up by putting more clamps with less force than a couple clamps really cranked down. If I need to pull out 30+ clamps to clamp it evenly, so be it. Other than one that had a defective thread, I have never had a problem with any clamp. For $3, it wasn't worth the gas to take it back to the store to complain.

Not to start anything, but if you are having to clamp things hard enough to break clamps, you need to re-think your joinery. Just relying on brute force clamping is most likely going to lead to eventual joint failure. Most glue will creep. If you are gluing two boards and you can't pull them tight by hand, you shouldn't be gluing, you should be re-jointing the boards.


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## dbhost

I too have had excellent results with the HF bar clamps. I go in to the store and I fish through the bin for the good ones. Unless you are picky about the ones you buy, it is really easy to get junk from them… However if you are picky, it is real easy to get some pure gems from them…

The orange ratcheting bar clamps like others have said are flaky.

The pipe clamps have been plenty stout…


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## ssnvet

*Not to start anything, but if you are having to clamp things hard enough to break clamps*

The clamp arrived that way in the box…. I never used it…. Box was undamaged and showed no signs of mishandling.


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## grandpaj

The square tube clamps are pretty good and that black bar clamps have never given any problem except I have lost the cushions so I put furniture pads on with epoxy. Also buy there 16 and 18 gauge nailer plus there HVLP gun,also the dust collector works good in a retirement shop that stays busy all time.


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## patcollins

Nothing but good things to say about these bar clamps, looks like someone who doesnt care about their job packed your order.

I've actually done ok with the HF trigger clamps, especially for $1.99 each, I dont use them for stuff like glueups just for a third hand and they work great for that.

Totally agree about the clamping pressure, if you have to hold it that tight, the glue itself will never hold that joint.


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## dkirtley

ssnvet: Yeah, I have had a bad one too. I was just speaking in general. I keep reading people complaining about inexpensive clamps breaking when they are gluing up. Sure I would like to have a whole slew of nice Bessey and Jorgensens but I would rather have the big bucket of cheap clamps for the price of 5 or 6 high end clamps.


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## roundguy

my philosophy on tools and other stuff:
You can cuss when you pay for it or cuss every time you use it.


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## lumberjoe

dbhost has it right. This is not an "online order" item. I have also had really good luck with these clamps and in total I am probably up to 50 or 60 of them. HOWEVER, I have a store very close to me and I get them in the store. I'd say about 1/3 of the ones on the shelf the store are junk. The 36" ones seem to be popular as the store always has very few, and out of the 5 or 6 on the shelf, 1 or 2 are good. If you can put your hands on them before you buy them and make sure they are good,you are getting a good bargain on a clamp. If you order online you are taking a risk.

The black and orange ones are good for nothing. Your money will be better spent by giving it to a homeless person.


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## b2rtch

"You can cuss when you pay for it or cuss every time you use it." 
Very true

What makes the difference between a good one and bad one?
I never payed attention and yet it seems tha they all work fine.


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## lumberjoe

Some are misaligned. Close them fully and make sure the ends match up. Also make sure you can twist the screw all the way though the threaded casting. A lot of them in the store bind half way or 3/4 of the way through.


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## b2rtch

Thanks


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## 33706

Harbor Freight tools for Harbor Freight projects….


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## dbhost

lumberjoe has it dead on right. The one HF clamp I have had to return I can only fault myself on. I KNOW Harbor Freight sells cheap tools. As such I KNOW I need to be picky when selecting tools from them. I failed to thoroughly test the clamp (run the screw all the way up, and all the way down) and had one clamp with bad threads… Considering I currently have a collection of over 50 Harbor Freight clamps, that is an acceptable rate to me.

The handle thing is a new one by me, the one pictured is the first I have heard of. I'm sure there are more, but never seen it that's all… The alignment is the biggest issue I see with them in store. The next is, bent bars. Seriously. I have no idea why they even think to shelve the ones I have seen, but I have seen WAY more HF bar clamps where the bar is bent like a taco on the shelves at my local HF… I fussed at the manager and things seem to have gotten better lately…

My first half dozen HF clamps came web ordered before I found a HF store… They are all fine, but I consider that luck…

The HF corner clamps however, I have nothing nice to say about… Those are a complete waste of materials and fuel to ship them.


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## lumberjoe

This actually may be why harbor Freight gets a much worse reputation than they deserve. Some of their products are actually pretty good. Overall, their quality control and consistency is terrible. I would never buy anything from HF online. So far, everything I own from HF is actually of acceptable or better quality - and not acceptable for cheap crap, I mean acceptable for the product type in general. That is because I fully inspect the item before I buy it. If it is a box I take it out. The manager has questioned me a few times, but I raised my concerns about QC and consistency, and to my surprise his response was along the lines of "I'd rather you open it and check it out before you buy it than return it later, just box it back up properly when you are done".
With power tools it's impossible, but I avoid buying power tools from them unless are the few stand-outs (universally accepted "HF gems"). If you don't have access to a HF brick and mortar store, you will likely be a very unhappy customer


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## Dal300

Poopie said, *"Harbor Freight tools for Harbor Freight projects…."*

My answer to that is BS, *"It's a poor workman who blames his tools"*

Many a fine piece of furniture, sailing ship, industrial machine, building, bridge, etc. was built in the 1400's though the 1900's without benefit of fine steel and fancy glues. Nails and screws were hand made from wrought iron, chisels and draw knives made of cast iron, saws made of low carbon, low grade steel….. wooden clamps with wooden screws?

Now I'm told I have to have the top o' the line to make anything worthwhile….. what a bunch of crap.


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## b2rtch

Dallas,
Amen
I would add that the real craftsman make do with what ever is available to him/her.
I spend several years of my life in so-called third world countries, you cannot believe what these "primitive" people can do with very little. 
People like poopiekat have a lot to learn from them.


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## 33706

Third-world peoples would use the very best tools that are within their reach, and I'm kinda sure that they wouldn't reach for their crappiest chisel if they have a better one in their toolbox. This is where the pro-HF logic falls apart.


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## bandit571

Harbor freight clamps in use ( WARNING: Photo may be offensive to S.N.O.B.)









Maybe another view??









8/4 Beech Bench top glue up. And, on the 'lighter side' of things…









One of a pair, doing duty as a saw vise…


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## 33706

I simply prefer not to have tools in my shop that I have to make rationalizations, or excuses for. I see no point in having a set of junky tools for the light work, and reserving a set of well-made tools for the heavy duty work. I expect superior performance every time from my tools.. or they're out. My good, dependable tools are a compliment to my abilities. Sorry if I got anybody's knickers in a knot.


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## b2rtch

poopiekat, you obviously are not able to understand what I try to say which is that one does not need the best tools to do an excellent work if he knows how to work and to use what ever he has to do the job. 
The quality of the work is not in the tools but in the brain and in the hands behind them.
One can have the very best tools in the world, if he is poor craftsman he will never achieve a good work.
I "love " tools and I love especially beautiful tools (not necessarily expensive ones) but I also believe that there is a lot of snobbism in wanting to own expensive tools.


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## 33706

@b2rtch:
I guess you don't understand what I'M saying… that it goes to show that great artisans don't mess with cheezo tools… it's a question of self-esteem I guess. I'll ask Joe L. if Sam Maloof had any HF crap in his toolbox…


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## Dal300

*Third-world peoples would use the very best tools that are within their reach, and I'm kinda sure that they wouldn't reach for their crappiest chisel if they have a better one in their toolbox. This is where the pro-HF logic falls apart.*

And how, pray tell does the HF logic pro-fall apart?

I've been to many third world countries, watched many a craftsman with nothing more than a pocket knife, and old hacksaw blade and a nail make some of the prettiest and most intricate carvings you've ever seen, including carvings in furniture.

I gave one fellow a nice little Stanley SW Chisel once. I saw him a few weeks later and he had three tools made from the chisel. A gouge, a 1/4" butt chisel and a mallet. I asked him why he cut it up and he said he needed the other tools more than the 3/4" chisel. He was holding the chisel with two toes and using the mallet with his only hand to tap designs and figures into a chunk of ipe. From what I could see, the chisel in it's being cut up had lost all it's temper and had to be sharpened and honed constantly.

Good luck on your argument that the third world only use the most expensive tools they can afford. That chisel would have cost him more than a months wages and he could have sold it for enough to feed his family for over a month.

I find your constant attacks on low cost tools extremely snobbish and arrogant, as if you are the chosen of God, to decide who is to live and who is to die because of their tool purchasing priorities.

Deciding that no piece is good enough because it was made with inferior tools is (to me) the height of arrogance. Just exactly where does your inside information spring from? Have you been granted a special privilege by the Gods of wood working to judge?


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## 33706

Sounds like too much caffeine, Dallas.


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## b2rtch

I am cheap (my wife says frugal) and by principal I refuse to pay for a brand name (except Rigid which offers an excellent value) or to pay full price.
The only thing I want to say to finish this conversation is that I have been buying HF tools for over 25 years that I always have been satisfied, with the exception of one router that I returned. 
This is the only things which matters to me.


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## 33706

*b2rtch *loves Harbor Freight tools. 
Well, there ya go.


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## b2rtch

" b2rtch loves Harbor Freight tools. " 
Yes, I do.


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## lumberjoe

I'm not going to chime in on the "HF sucks!" or "I LOVE HF!!" argument. Very little of their stuff is worth buying, and out of that very little, you have to inspect it for quality yourself before you buy it.

Back (kind of) on topic. I have asked several times and no one has answered me.
*What makes a bessy or jet clamp worth 10 times more than the Pittsburgh clamp pictured here? * This is a serious question. Back in my ME (mechanical engineering) days, one of our labs was testing clamping pressure. We used jorgensen clamps. A 36" jorgensen clamp can apply about 400 to 500 PSI of clamping pressure. For hardwood, you need 180 to 200 PSI. More than 200 and you actually get a weaker joint. We tested it by breaking joints after they cured. Something clamped at 190 PSI was impossible to break at the joint. We actually broke the wood around the joint. The titebond logo is correct - "bonds stronger than wood".

On the piece clamped at 420 PSI, the glue joint separated fairly cleanly. We were all shocked. Our professor did this to prove a point, and he sure did.

*So in your answer, please do not say "they are stronger, so they are better".* They may be stronger, but they don't need to be. These 5$ clamps can already exert twice the pressure necessary for a structurally sound glue joint.* I'm really not trying to start an argument, I actually want to know. If I am doing myself a disservice by owning inferior crappy clamps, I want to fix that.


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## lj61673

There really is no such thing as a Harbor Freight review. 
It's either "This (name the tool) is a piece of Junk" or "I got lucky and it didn't break 5 minutes after taking it out of the box" 
Cheapskates can rationalize anything away.
Harbor Freight sell garbage. Period.


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## Dal300

lj61673, Bless your heart. That makes it all clear.

Now, if you can tell us all how you came to that conclusion, please inform us so we can be privy to your superior knowledge.


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## b2rtch

lj61673, 
I have a question for you; how much do you owe on your credit card (s)?
Yes I am cheap and I am proud of it. 
When the average American family owe over $17000 on their credit card, I do not owe a penny to any one and rather than buying expensive tools that I could afford if I wanted to, I give a lot of money to various christian charities . 
I believe that this is much better way to spend the money that I receive from my gracious God.


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## dkirtley

Lumberjoe:

It is the same attitude that keeps luxury car makers in business. There are two main drivers:

1. Someone doesn't want to take the time to investigate the quality and would rather pay the premium price to avoid the guesswork. (I can't always argue against this)

2. Someone just repeats what they have heard from "authorities" (most often quoting directly from the marketing brochure) and passes it on as gospel.

The real question is: where do you draw the line? The $8 HF smoothing plane? The $30 Anant? The $250 L-N? The $MultiK Holtey? Do you do without a plane because you can't get the Holtey? I personally think it is silly but there are those that would do without. Since I am doing this stuff to entertain myself and not make a living off of it, I think it is more fun to get the $8 plane and soup it up until it performs as well as the expensive ones.

Sometimes the top of the line can be justified. Sometimes it is just to try to impress people. If I were making a living at it, I wouldn't have a HF laminate trimmer. For playing, I have a couple. They are great for my Beall threading kit. Just set one and dedicate it to the fixture. $20 on sale? Bah, those are door prizes. It's not worth changing the bit when the router costs less than the bit.


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## lumberjoe

Woah there David, you lost me there, I drive a luxury car! 

I do see your point though. In making my car buying decision, I fully understand there is absolutely no reason my car should cost 20k more than a Hyundai Sonata or 10-15k more than a Honda Accord, Name brand has nothing to do with it, and I won't even mention the brand here. It's AWD, has 2 turbos, "geeked out" with the latest gadgets and is fun to drive. I did not think any of the other cars I test drove were fun at all, so while not a rational decision, it was an emotional one that I accept and can live with.

I can't make that emotional or rational jump with clamps though. They apply pressure to wood when you turn a handle. That is it. There are no features, no bells and whistles, and who cares what they look like.

I also agree with your second point. I do own ONE top of the line tool. The Porter Cable 7518. I feel I need it and I do use it often. I also own a lot of "mediocre" tools because like you mentioned I did research and found they are really anything but mediocre and fit my needs perfectly. Again like you, these are my toys.

Also that Windsor hand plane is awesome. Another HF gem.


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## JayT

lumberjoe,

Comparing these clamps to the Bessey or Jet clamps you are referring to is an apples and oranges comparison. Those companies also make F clamps similar to the ones reviewed here that cost much less than the parallel clamps-that would be the real apples to apples comparison. Do a search on Lowes website for Bessey and you will see what I mean.

The Bessey, Jet and Jorgensen parallel clamps are worth more because of how they clamp and the materials. On an F clamp you have two small points of contact to distribute the clamping pressure. On the name brand parallel clamps, they are set up so that the jaws always stay perfectly parallel to each other and you can use the whole surface (which is much wider and longer) to clamp. Since the two surfaces are parallel, they also help to align and square the piece as they clamp.

The parallel clamps also use much heavier and stronger bars for the jaws to ride on to ensure that there is no flex as the clamping pressure is applied, which is the only way for the jaws to remain parallel. I haven't measured, but I would be willing to bet the bars on all the companies' F clamps flex and deform slightly when put under load, it is just that the swivel compensates. This is where the "they are stronger" argument actually holds true. It is not the clamping pressure that requires more strength, it is to prevent flex. As an ME, I think you would probably agree that engineering something to be more accurate and stronger takes exponentially more time and care in the manufacturing process, thus resulting in the higher prices.

I own a lot of quick clamps, some F clamps and a few parallel clamps. Each has different uses. The parallel clamps are sometimes overkill, but there are also times they will do a job that the F clamps cannot or will just do it better and more accurately.

Hope that helps.


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## lumberjoe

Jay T, thank you, that does make a lot of sense and I have experienced first hand what you are referring to. I was never doubting that expensive K body or parallel clamps were worth more, I just simply wanted to know why. I have struggled on large glue-ups with the pieces shifting on the opposite axis they were clamped. It makes sense now knowing that F style clamps do not remain parallel. I always attributed that more to the fact you have a viscus surface (wet glue) and when you have such a surface, it is natural for it to shift. It cannot shift on the same axis as the clamp, so the force is exerted on the opposite axis.
I have come up with some interesting methods to combat this and all are successful, but time consuming. I think it would be a good idea to have a few of these in my clamping arsenal to set the initial hold/index the pieces and augment with my bargain clamps. I still can't see how I would not have lateral movement, but I'll have to give it a shot.

To date the only argument I keep hearing is they apply more pressure, which never validated anything for me.

Also I never finished ME. I got sucked in to EE and computer science instead, but ME was a lot more fun (just not as many jobs and a completely different pay scale)


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## lumberjoe

Depends. Is shop 1 full of salty old men covered in sawdust and shop 2 full of fresh out of trade school kids blasting dubstep and staring at the clock for quitting time?

That would influence my decision A LOT more than the brand names of tools. Plus if you are buying something and not making it, you wouldn't know the difference between Central Machinery and Powermatic.


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## Dal300

these are interesting takes on quality.

Jonathon,

I really defy any plebe to walk into any shop and be able to discern the difference between a Bessey or an HF…. After all, they don't even know what they want and how much it will cost until you tell the. It's your job to steer them in the direction they really want to go and encourage them to be happy with the choice.

I've found that a clean shop and well maintained tools makes more of an impression than the name brand on the side of it.

For instance… The other day I ran into a 'fOX' table saw, It looks a lot like a SHOP FOX, but is spelled differently.

It was probably built in the same shop, from the same dies and from the same quality steel. How would a customer know the difference?


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## b2rtch

lumberjoe, I agree with you.


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## ssnvet

Jay nailed it….. don't compare pipe or 'F' clamps to parallel clamps… two different critters.

My price comps were between HF 'F' clamps and Jorgensen 'F' clamps…. and the delta was 3X

I have one pair of Jorgensen 'F' clamps and they are very nicely made…. robust casting with no pitting, machined slot with small amount of play. Bar is heavier. Lines up on center. Hardwood handles. Actually made in the USA. Well worth the 3X the price, imho. But for a hobbyist like me, I can't really justify the expense to get enough of the Jorgensen clamps to glue up a larger project.

So my approach is to own some good clamps and some cheap clamps.

It would make an interesting study for some Anthropology major to analize the overly defensive / aggressive type of comments that get put out on internet forums…. must be related to potty training or something.

Take a chill pill guys… they're $4 pipe clamps from HF people… not like anybody has blasphemed the holy relics of a world religion.


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## lumberjoe

I have a few of the Jorgensen bar clamps as well, and I find I reach for the Pittsburgh more often. One of my jorgensens ALWAYS binds up after I un-clamp. I have to tap the release lever with a mallet to slide it back down the bar. The others work perfectly though. If I were smart I would mark it so I would know to not use it unless I had to…
one of these days


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## ssnvet

Brand/quality doesn't matter to a true knuckle-dragger anyways….. They break them all just the same :^O


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## twoblacklabs

Having just purchased several of the F style clamps within the last week, I was curious to see this review. In my case, I have a local store and like others, have been able to pick them up in person. Honestly though, I have just picked and carried, not looking at the details of each clamp. 10 in the last week, 1 just tonight. I think you really got a bad shipment. So far, these are pretty darn good. I have several of the orange F style that are at least 10 years old with wooden handles. They are okay but will flex along the bar with too much pressure. The newer blue F style seems to not have the same flex. Maybe I got a bad batch years ago?

FWIW, I plan on picking up at least one F style clamp each time I go in there, so I slowly add to my collection of clamps. Since I "post" in the area of my local store almost daily (while on an ambulance), the collection will be growing rapidly!


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## rasp

I would rather have quality clamps that cost more to buy, than a pile of scrap metal and stripped threads I have to move around time and time again (and that don't work). When I reach for a tool, I have certain expectations.

they cost more for a reason. I've seen Jorgesen clamps in shops older than some LJ members, the bar may be bent into an awful curve, but they still work.

Princess Auto or Harbor Freight (they seem to be similar kind of discount tool stores) sell lots of junk. I think this is one of the biggest problems with our economy lately, people being satisfied with sub-standard stuff and NOT complaining. Stop buying this junk and buy quality tools.

You won't hand down any of your cheap clamps and Crappy Tire screwdrivers to your grandchildren….....

but I guess if you use these cheaper tools within their designed range of capability, they will serve you well.


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## lumberjoe

Rasp, I am never satisfied with junk. Rather than basing your opinion on opinion, buy a few and try them out. They are actually pretty good - and I don't mean pretty good for "junk", I mean good at any price.

If you are basing your opinion on country of origin for the clamps, I would suggest going to home depot and checking out the Jorgensens. The 6 I have all say "made in china" on them. This review is not about harbor freight. Everyone knows they sell junk. You also mentioned screw drivers.My screwdrivers probably cost more than every clamp I own combined, because they are snap-on and MAC (I do a lot of automotive work as well).Why? Ever round off a screw head with a crappy screwdriver in a place you cannot possibly fit a drill and an easy out? Me either, because I use quality tools.

My point being - I don't buy "cheap". I buy the best value for the intended purpose. These clamps are a great value and great clamps.

Also as I mentioned, out of my 50+ clamps, one one is problematic, and it is a Jorgensen.


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## lj61673

*"Now, if you can tell us all how you came to that conclusion, please inform us so we can be privy to your superior knowledge."*

Two words, Resale Value.

Being a Harbor Freight fan you are probably unfamiliar with the term.

Check out the used hand plane market, all the Lie Nielsen and Veritas planes are reselling for 90-95% of their retail value. In some cases more. Nuff said.

Now, whether that's warranted or not, that's for the buyer to decide. But good luck finding a better deal than that…


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## lumberjoe

I'm confused. I you buy something that you expect to last for generations, why would you be concerned with selling it?


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## lj61673

Concerned? I can't find where that was mentioned in this conversation.
We are talking about VALUE and its effect on an items price. Well made items (ones that last generations)retain more of their value than poorly made ones.
Sorry if that confuses you…


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## 33706

I'm still waiting for someone to say whether the late Sam Maloof's workshop was populated with HF tools.
Guess nobody wants to touch that one….


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## lumberjoe

I am not a tool re-seller, herein lies my confusion. I buy clamps to force things together so they glue up properly. I don't buy clamps so my grandchildren can use them some day. The value proposition in this equation is the fact they apply the appropriate amount of pressure to the joint I am gluing; therefor value is realized. Also, they are 5 dollars. I've spent more money than that in internet bandwidth and electricity typing this response.

I'm trying really hard to find validity in your argument here. I am not talking about Harbor Freight. I am talking about *clamps*. This review is about *clamps*, not hand planes. You mentioned hand planes which is interesting because that is one of the few tools that actually holds resale value. I attribute a large part of this to collectors. Any item that is collectable is instantly worth more. 
Case and point, my father has several thousand dollars of hand planes. None on them in working condition, and none have ever been used by him personally. They are surely still worth every penny he paid, and maybe even more. He purchased those with the value proposition being resale and monetary investment with promise for future capital gain; not their intended purpose of shaping wood.

A lot of us here aren't building collections, we are putting tools to work. I'd rather pass down the pieces of furniture I made to my grand kids than the clamps that held them together for a brief 30 minutes.


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## Dal300

An items value is only what someone will pay for it.

If you make a whatsit clamp and value it at $7,000,000 but the consumer decides it's only worth $4.00 I suppose you won't sell many, although you would only need to sell one to validate your assumption.

Poopie, how did Sam Maloof get into this conversation? we are discussing clamps and the value thereof, not what someone has in their shop that makes them happy.

I'm happy buying the HF clamps and Irwin clamps. Conversely, you are happy spending money on Jorgensen and Bessie clamps. That's our distinct choices.

To flatly state that because someone shops at HF they can only buy HF products is making an assumption that's totally unwarranted.
That seems to be like saying "I ONLY buy products made in the United States!" If that were true, there would be very few if any products in your house or in your possession.

Good luck with your assumptions, this is just getting better and better.


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## lumberjoe

poopiekat, interesting argument. I'm not sure what B2rtch would say, but here is my response.
1 - this review is about F clamps, not table saws or any other single item sold at Harbor Frieght
2 - Sam Maloof was an extremely talented woodworker and designer by *trade*. I am a hobbiest at best

For fair sake of comparison, how about we compare something I do make money with; technology.
Right now I am typing this on a 3 week old 2.6ghz macbook pro with a 15" retenia display. Connected to that is a 27" thunderbolt display. The cost of both of those items far exceeds a brand new PM2000 with tax and shipping

Let's not stop there. My wireless connection is through a cisco Aironet 1260, which connects to my Cisco 2921 integrated services router (ISR) with integrated switch and DSP's to allow faster processing of my VOIP calls through my Cisco 7942 IP phone which homes to a call manager cluster on a multi million dollar cisco UCS infrastructure in my companies data center.

Also of note, except the UCS chassis this is in my house, not at my office. All of this is my equipment that was purchased at my expense (except again the UCS chassis, and the IP phone company provided as well).

Your argument that an accomplished, well known woodworker by trade would not use inferior tools would be the same as me telling you that the laptop/PC you have is inferior and however you connect to the internet is no where near enterprise level, so you shouldn't even bother going online. Does one need a home network that would cost you in excess of 7 thousand dollars and require certified professionals to configure and maintain to browse the internet? Absolutely not. Do I? Yes. I work from home quite a bit and I rely on network stability to make money for my family.
As with basic internet access, Woodworking doesn't need to be elitist or prohibitively expensive.

Just my.02 and please do not take any offence. You have posted some beautiful and inspirational work that someday I hope to barely come close to.


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## dkirtley

Ok, I will play 

Poopiecat, are you familiar with the term strawman argument? Neither you nor anyone else in the conversation has any inside information as to an inventory of Sam Maloof's tools. I have seen pictures of his shop and I saw a range in tools that would be expensive and inexpensive. But in either case, it has no bearing whatsoever on whether some little F-clamps from HF will squeeze two pieces of wood together.

You have the position that people are foolish to purchase tools that are not top of the line. I have the position that people are foolish to buy a $15 clamp to do something that a $3 clamp will do. What is the goal? Is it to have the finest collection of tools or to make stuff without spending money on things you don't need? If the former, then you are right. If the latter, not so much.


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## 33706

*I'll stand by my 40-50 year old 'Wilton' and 'Brinks & Cotton' clamps manufactured with dignity by American labor. YOU can encourage the perpetuation of slave labor, forced labor, child labor, exploited labor of overseas manufacturers by continuing to buy this dreck by the cargo-container load. I'm glad my clamps have stood the test of time, they exist today as a testament to much more ethical and quality conscious manufacturing policies. Get off your lazy butts and find REAL tools. They're out there, many in need of new homes.* Oh, and there's a dozen or more of LJs that have been guests to Sam Maloof's workshop. I'm assuming they felt the answer to my question was too obvious to respond, and I agree.


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## ChuckC

It is very ignorant to think that only lesser quality items are made in depressed regions of the world. You don't think sweat shops are pumping out expensive stuff too?? Let's open our minds just a little.

It's also ignorant to think that a person can't produce quality furniture with HF tools. I've seen a lot of people on this site post great projects in very modest shops.

I'd like to also comment on the notion that we are supporting <insert-country-name-here> if we are not buying American. For a lot of people it's either buy a HF tool, for example, or buy nothing. So, what's better for the American economy? If I don't buy anything I'm not helping anyone. If I buy something from China I'm putting some money into the Chinese economy and also some money into our economy. From the guy unloading the container from the ship to the kid that rings me up at HF my purchase is sustaining American jobs. And, guess what I'm going to do once I get that new tool setup? I'm heading to the (American) lumberyard and buying some wood. Then I'll head to my local HD or Lowe's and get screws, nails, glue, finish, hardware …


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## dkirtley

Ok, if we are going to talk about the product being from overseas, I am lost. So, are we not to buy *anything* if there is not an equivalent product made in the U.S.A.? The Bessey F-clamps are made in China (with bars made in Germany), as are the Jorgensens and the HF models. Most likely in the same factory from the same molds. Where would you suggest we find these elusive clamps made with dignity by American labor?

My Grammercy holdfasts I know were made in the U.S.A.

I had no part in US companies moving their production overseas. I have no way to verify the working conditions of the factory. It's not a matter of turning a blind eye to "the perpetuation of slave labor, forced labor,[and] exploited labor." The fact of the matter is that there is a just a little bit less than diddly-squat made in the U.S. any more. I guess we just cannot buy anything at all then.

I still have no idea how Sam Maloof's tools have any bearing on the discussion. I don't have any idea of the origin of Tage Frid, Toshiro Odate, or James Krenov's clamps either. Come to think about it, I don't even know what brand shoes they preferred either.


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## rasp

if the clamp is 7.99-10.99, there's no way it could pay for

1. the process to extract raw materials from the earth
2. the process to make that raw material into steel
3. making the steel into clamp parts
4. shipping the parts to be assembled
5. the process of assembling the clamp
6. packaging, shipping, unloading
7. the store that sells the clamps overhead and 
8. the employees wages that sell the clamps

somebody has to pay. people in 3rd world countries pay with their land, their health, their lives. we reap all the benefits of this corrupted system, and pay very little. none of that money makes it back to where the clamps were originally made.

i'd rather buy something I know was made down the road, even if I can barely afford it.

I like the "cuss when I use it or cuss when I buy it" line, that was golden!


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## ChuckC

^^ You are foolishly assuming that expensive clamps put more money in the pockets of those that produce them.

Let's not forget the marketing aspect of all of this. A lot of stores take a loss on products to get you into the store to (hopefully) buy other products.

This situation isn't as simple as you would think.


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## jacob34

Aren't we kinda going away from the merits of the product and moving into a Walmart or HF in this case being the devil?? Any product purchased is worthless if you are not realistic both on its strengths and weaknesses.


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## bandit571

Ok, I SAVED until I could AFFORD to by that "Windsor Bench Plane" from H-F. That's right! With the budget i have for woodworking right now, I do have to set aside a dollar here and there. The last clamps I bought from H-F was three years ago, and they are STILL in use.

Resale value of CLAMPS??? Now, THAT is a new one on me. When I can go into the local Antique Store and buy two large wooden clamp for the price of a gallon of gas? Both are over a hundred years old.

Through the years, we've had these kind of stores. From H-F back through "ODD LOTS", to the "Bargain Barns", to even "Monkey Wards". As long as one knows WHAT they are looking at, and for, one can find that "special" tool they need to do a few jobs with. PK, do you pass along the cost of these "GOOD" tools when you sell a project? Maybe those "high-end' jobs will pay the cost of tooling up YOUR shop, but most of my projects go to FAMILY MEMBERS as gifts. I MIGHT sell one or two projects a year, IF I am very lucky.

Yes, I am buying up a few old planes, but again, it is with in the budget I have, thanks to SELLING a few old, refurbished handsaws. As for what is in a woodshop as far as tools, go look at Roy Underhill's shop…..


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## dkirtley

Rasp,

I honestly agree on most levels. I don't shop at Walmart, I buy from small companies when I can. I have not been to a shopping mall more than three times in the last 20 years. I prefer to shop in local lumber yards and such when I can over big box stores. I rarely buy new tools at all. That still doesn't address the issue of the fact that as far as I know, there is practically nothing made "down the road."

I do buy at HF and Grizzly sometimes. At least they are honest about where their merchandise comes from. These "Fine upstanding US companies" outsource stuff to China and then we are expected to buy from them and pay US made prices for the same stuff. Guess what? Harbor Freight and Grizzly are US companies too. They are buying from the same factories as Delta, Stanley, Jorgensen, and such too. Do I owe some special allegiance to Stanley because once upon a time they sold things that were made in the USA? Wilton sells vises made in China. Do I owe it to them to pay $200 vise made in China over a $75 vise made in China at HF just because once upon a time they made stuff here in the USA?

It may sound good to say BUY USA and give you a warm fuzzy feeling inside but unless you are going to do without just about everything, it is not really feasible. In some ways, I think it is preferable to avoid US companies who have moved their production offshore and buy direct from the offshore people directly. At least there are not as many bites taken out of their mouths along the way.


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## rasp

I must be lucky, Veritas tools are made down the road. Goudey Stains are micro brewed down the road. Lee Valley is down the road.

The options are there.

also, instead of buying a Grizzly/Craftex unisaw clone, I restored a Canadian made Rockwell unisaw. not only did I save over 1000$, I have a better quality saw than one could buy new, for a third of the price


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## dkirtley

It seems like a quickly shifting target. Ok, you restored the saw made years ago rather than buying new. I have nothing against that but exactly how does that have any impact on: "somebody has to pay. people in 3rd world countries pay with their land, their health, their lives. we reap all the benefits of this corrupted system, and pay very little. " I must be supporting a lot of people and reaping all endless benefits with the things I don't buy.

The clamps here on the discussion are made in China. The ones from Bessy are made in China. The Jorgensen clamps are made in China (although that one is new to me as my Jorgensens were made in the USA-I guess they finally gave in to market pressures).

I have many tools that I bought from Lee Valley that came from guess where? China. Yes, they also make some tools themselves that are not made in China. Those weren't the items in question.

I'll keep the Goudey Stains in mind but I won't get my hopes up. I have not bought any stains in over 20 years. Are they good? (Never mind. I looked at their website and they don't even have a distributor in my country to order from)


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## patcollins

Every time this arguement pops up it reminds me of Ron Whites Brother in law


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## lumberjoe

Well this went really south really fast. Time to unwatch. First it was "these clamps suck but I don't know why because I've never used them". Then it was "harbor freight is terrible and you need good tools to build anything", to "these are junk because they have no resale value!", and now that every other argument has been nullified, the inevitable "you are supporting child labor and killing american jobs when you buy these" card has been pulled.

Bottom line - these clamps are good at making pieces of wood with glue applied to them stick together. If that is why you buy clamps, give these a shot, you will like them.

I don't care to comment on any of the other topics. This is a woodworking board, not a ploitical forum or a place where economists chat about the state of things. Also this review is about *F STYLE CLAMPS*, not child labor or the economy.


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## rasp

well, jonathans picture clearly shows long island new york stamped on those clamps, so at one point, it was cost effective to make them at home. i would have a hard time truly believing there is much of a difference between his american clamps and chinese clamps, but i'd still rather have the american ones (it's that warm fuzzy feeling), and for 200$ you couldn't buy that many chinese clamps even at half price

i would like to believe that refurbishing the old saw diverted it from being recycled into an inferior saw, or taking up space in a landfill, that sort of thing matters to me, as the local landfill is just around the corner from me.

what is the point of using up so much energy to make more and more NEW things when there are plenty of OLD things that still work fine, if not better than their new counterparts?

lastly, lee valley sells all kinds of stuff, made in countries from europe to asia to north america, at varying price points. there isn't another retailer in canada similar to lee valley.


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## lumberjoe

Rasp, you actually make a good point here:
what is the point of using up so much energy to make more and more NEW things when there are plenty of OLD things that still work fine, if not better than their new counterparts?

I believe this is a generational gap. I was born in 1977. For as long as I can remember, everything made had an engineered lifespan, and most things "made in the USA" were inferior to their foreign counterparts. I can't remember anything I ever purchased new that I expected to last a lifetime. Old/used items carry a certain stigma. For those of you in the US, look at cars for example. How many GM G body cars (Cutlas/Regal/Monte Carlo)do you still see on the road (especially the 82 t0 88 vintage)? I'll bet none. They were and are crap, admittedly so by the manufacturer.

In addition this is why "Made in the US" carries little emphasis by my generation and subsequent ones. This was actually perceived as a bad thing. By the same token, how many mid to late 80's honda and toyota sedans are still out there? Quite a few. Have you ever owned any GE or westinghouse electronics made in the mid to late 80's? They were AWFUL. We (the US) actually screwed ourselves in that time period by putting out junk and actually made way for the acceptance and even the desirableness of imported goods. Our foreign counterparts adopted much higher manufacturing quality standards such as Six Sigma to reduce cost and waste while still making a quality product. We cut cost by reducing quality instead of reducing waste and increasing efficiency. Again, this also opened the door to the "if you can't beat them, join them" thinking that took so many conglomerates overseas.


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## dkirtley

Joe,

Being in the group right ahead of you, I saw the other part as well. The transition to making things disposable rather than reusable. I was raised with cloth diapers and glass coke bottles. All my friends in high school were into buying old cars and rebuilding them (whether it was the ones building hot rods or the ones building low riders.) The Japanese products went from being the cheap niche that China is in now (and rising out of) to being the top quality products. Tools from US manufacturers were top of the line. In fact, in many workplaces, you were not even allowed on a jobsite if your tools were not US made. There are a few hold-outs. I have yet to see a reciprocating saw that can come close to my old Milwaukee. I can't be sure of the new ones from Milwaukee because mine doesn't seem to be slowing down that I would need to go shopping. It's nearly 20 years old.

I think a lot of people have nostalgia for the old quality that went with US made tools. (Not exclusively, there were a number of fantastic tools out of Europe as well) Then the companies that built that reputation for quality decided to take the low road and cheat the consumer by slipping in crap and slapping their brand on it in hopes that nobody would notice. The Chinese companies can make fine quality products. The reason that they don't is they are building to the specifications that these US companies request. If you went to their company and asked them to make a high quality tool they would be glad to. Of course it would cost about as much as a high quality tool made anywhere.

If you want to discuss the labor policies, remember, they are not setting them over there. They are being subjected to the pressures by *our* companies. The latest in the news is Foxconn. It is not their company that is putting the pressure on their employees. Apple sets the price. If they can't meet it, Apple will take their business elsewhere. Pointing the finger at Foxconn is stupid. They are not driving the market. They will do whatever it takes to keep Apple's business.

Remember, it is not the Chinese that are flooding our market with crap. It is the US companies that go to China and specifically request that crap be made and then they bring it over here to sell. Once these low price manufacturers get enough experience and capital, they come over and sell quality stuff that blows our companies away. It happened in electronics and automobiles from Japan. It has happened with LCDs and beginning to happen with automobiles from Korea. It will keep happening as long as our companies can get away with it by playing both sides against us. They shout the battle cry of "Buy American" when that is not what they are really selling. Walmart has been really good about putting up all the patriotic BUY USA stuff in their stores. Guess what? They have all the HECHO EN MEXICO decorations in the stores in Mexico as well.


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## Dusty56

These should certainly be hand picked if a store is nearby. It's the only way you'll ever get any good ones.


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## 33706

The only tangible conclusion I can draw from cheepo HF threads is that, unlike the high-quality "*Handplanes of Your Dreams*" thread where people speak to one another with respectful tones, the low-end tool discussions become obnoxious and difficult in a hurry. Guess why.


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## dkirtley

Poopiekat:

I guess it comes from the fact that you started throwing insults questioning our intelligence, workmanship, and ethics. Noting personal, I realize you are just trolling and having fun. It just hit me wrong on this thread. Usually you are quite positive in the on-topic threads. Maybe you had a traumatic experience with tools that were not top of the line and wanted to save us from ourselves. I don't know.


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## patcollins

poopiekat its because people that spent more money on the good stuff get all upset to think they may not have had to and have to start belittling people that bought the harbor freight stuff. The only insults I see in here are from people that are "too good" to use cheaper tools.


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## ssnvet

I'm so glad I'm an engineer by trade….. I get to ignore all the subjective stuff, pull out my LAPD detective badge and say "just the facts ma'am"....

I used the HF clamps over the weekend and found an interesting way to compare the stiffness of the clamps….

Since the pitch of the lead screws is the same… all you have to do is slide the clamp shut and tighten the handle untill you feel resistance. Now you've take the back lash out of the screw and engaged the cogs….

On the Jorgensen clamps, I could give about two turns (~90-120 deg. each) and it I was applying a lot of force and couldn't tighten them any more without significant effort.

With the HF clamps, it seemed like I could just keep turning… So I stepped back to evaluate and realized that the add'l turns were not applying more force, but rather were flexing the bar. At this point, I was concerned the handles would break, and called it good.

So my final take is that it'a really an apples to oranges comparison, between a robust, heavy duty clamp and a light weight, light duty clamp.

The HF clamps did accomplish what I needed to get done… so I'm calling it "mission accomplished" And if they hold up for a couple years, I'll consider them 4 stars instead of 3.


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## Dal300

Yesterday I stopped at HF and bought a bunch of stuff that would be pooh-poohed by Poopie. Some of the items I bought were the HF clamps of different sorts and lengths.
this morning I got out my handy "Fat Old Guy" digital scale and using a wooden block on the deck tried each of the clamps to see what kind of pressures were available within a reasonable range.
I also tried one of the two Bessy clamps I own to see what kind of readings I got.

I put a mark on the handle to tell me when I turned a full revolution. I set the clamps up to be just touching the scale before I started twisting the handle to tighten. Granted, this isn't totally scientific, and I'm sure there are other parameters I could/should have used.

First the Bessy's. These are 4 or 5 years old, 12" here
4 Turns brought the clamp to 223 lbs on the scale.

Next the HF 12" F Clamp. Spankin' new still had the tags on them. Here 
4 turns, 225 lbs on the scale.

Next the HF Ratchet bar spreader clamp Here
65 lbs was as high as I could go before it slipped. Yeah, In my opinion, they are junk, good for a quick hold and not much more.

Next was the Grey Ratchet bar Clamp from HF. Here
95 lbs, but it didn't slip…. The wife called me and I didn't get to go any farther. It might be a good squeeze clamp. The Jury is still out.

Finally I tested a couple of the swivel ended "Vice Grip" type clamps.. One from Kreg and one from HF. (Caution: I've got a lot of these HF clamps. I try to watch which ones I get, but sometimes the threads are a bit rough. I usually clean them up with a thread chaser and they work fine.).

This test was a bit different. I wanted to see how much it took to get to 300 lbs pressure.

The Kreg clamp here never got to 300 lbs. My hand wasn't strong enough to make the handle come tight.

The HF clamp here was able to achieve 300 lbs with no problem and I actually was able to get it up to the limit of the scale.. 390 lbs. I also had no problem removing it when the test was over. I can't say the same for the Kreg clamp.

My conclusions are that given the variability of the test bed, all the tools worked in a similar fashion with little difference in performance or deflection.
With the rubber tips on the F style clamps, a bit of flex in the bar won't make a bit of difference.

The only problem I see is in the $30 Kreg clamp…. to me it seemed that the swivel is too rough and the spring is too tight before extension.

Someone else pleas do another test and see what reading you get.


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## Tennessee

wow…81 posts on a review of HF F style bar clamps. Worse than the Laguna beatdown. We are a jealous bunch of our brands and the good ole' USA!
When I glue up a guitar body, (I have a front and back half), I use about 25 HF F style clamps. 44 guitars in service, not one failure or creeping joint. Good enough for me.

As far as quality, you will always get failures from any company on the planet. My last manufacturing job I worked in an upholstered furniture plant in Tennessee that had a failure rate of about 3.7%. That's obscene in my mind and not much better than any other company.

Next, as the Chinese wage rises, this argument will eventually end, since it will become unpractical for the manufacturer to make them in China, put them in a container, ship them, get through customs, distribute and sell. Reshoring is already underway in this country and will continue. I wonder, will that eventually put HF out of business? Would't it be strange to see "Made in America" hanging in a Harbor Freight store?

I also think it ironic that the complainers of "overseas" products would not hesitate to purchase say, a handmade Turkish rug of the highest quality wool, even though it is made by Muslim women working on a dirt floor laboring under Shiria law in 100' weather. The Turks make the finest rugs in the world, or at least in the top five. 
See, it's all relative to what the news media has poored down our throat.

Concerning used F clamps for restoration - it's a nice endeavor, if there were enough to go around. If all of us started buying used clamps today, the market would be dried and gone in two weeks. Same with old power tools, and everything else that is restored on this site. Supply and demand. They didn't make as many back then, so their are not as many available. For me, I don't have enough time in the day to spend an hour a clamp restoring it to its former glory.

I own over 30 HF F style clamps, not one in over 6 years has failed, and I doubt my 62 year old hands have enough power to make one fail. But I can join and make two pieces of wood look like one with Titebond III and a set of HF clamps. That is all I need to know. In the meantime, I'll admire the expensive Bessey's in my local store, but I'll be doggoned if I will give someone $20 or more for one.


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## lumberjoe

To add a little bit here, my darling wife was nice enough to get me a rather sizable gift card to woodcraft for fathers day. I wandered down to my store and picked out a bunch of "needs" for once instead of "wants" . After I was done with the needs, I had about 40$ left, and a 20 burning a hole in my pocket. I ended up grabbing a 36" bessy Revo.

I can see why people like these better. Parallel clamps are nice. Just that one clamp made the glue up process quicker. With that said, am I a convert? Heck no!! That thing cost me as much as* T E N* 36" F clamps from HF. The end result was the same as with the F style clamps - a nice glued up panel. 
I actually feel bad and guilty for buying this and in all likelihood, I am going to return it for some more Klingsopr sandpaper. To me it seems like a golden toilet seat - an extravagant excess.


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## lab7654

Wow. I've just wasted…let's see…20 minutes reading through most of these comments. Man, I'm not sure who's opinion to share on the matter of HF vs. High-End tools.


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## pmcwood

I'm a firm believer in "research the purchase".
There are many sources of tools at a reasonable price that will also offer you a quality product.
A low price-point is as you say it is nothing more than "exactly what you paid for".

Good luck with your projects now and to come.


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## ssnvet

Just another data point…..

The HF clamps are not ACME threaded…. just plane machine threads.

The Jorgensens are ACME threaded.

The way I figured it, at $4 a pop, I really couldn't go wrong with getting a few of the HF clamps. But I'm very glad they are not the only clamps in my shop.

I did a glue up for the bench project I'm blogging and used every clamp in the shop the other night….. so I'm glad I had the 8 HF clamps to help out.


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