# My Experience (so far) with the Powermatic PM1800



## RobWoodCutter

Woolly,

I am still happy with my PM1800. I threw away the original blade after just a few cuts.

I did not have any leveling issues like you did. I actually had a custom mobile base made for it from a local welder.

I ended up getting a Magnate m160m112V2 M-42 Bi-metal blade (1-1/2" wide, variable 2-3 tpi) only about $90 from Amazon, if I remember correctly and just use the bandsaw for resaw.

Although it says it can use a 1-1/2" wide blade, (it can) but you have to take the fence guide rail loose to get it on. A 1-1/4" goes on fine, but the 1-1/2" is just too wide.

Rob


----------



## NormG

Wow, what a journey. Hope it improves


----------



## JohnnyB

Your experience would certainly be disheartening. I hope you can get the machine dialed in to perform as you want it to. Incidentally, I think it is not entirely a fair generalization to condemn the quality of Taiwanese or Chinese machinery or other products. I believe they have the capability of turning out high quality work, especially when partnered with American or European companies, but much of their manufacturing is devoted to holding costs down. In the end, the companies that put their names on the machinery, whether it is Powermatic, Delta, or Grizzly, must bear the responsibility for the quality of the products. And not all American made machinery has always been top grade. I used to have an 8" Sprunger table saw…...........


----------



## Woollymonster

*RobWoodCutter*: I ended up getting a Magnate m160m112V2 M-42 Bi-metal blade (1-1/2" wide, variable 2-3 tpi) only about $90 from Amazon, if I remember correctly and just use the bandsaw for resaw.

Although it says it can use a 1-1/2" wide blade, (it can) but you have to take the fence guide rail loose to get it on. A 1-1/4" goes on fine, but the 1-1/2" is just too wide.

Wow Rob! Glad I couldn't find a 1.5". The Blade I ordered from Action Industrial was about $100. It only has 1.3 tpi. Hope the cuts are not too rough. More to clean up. I need this machine for re-saw, curves, and things like big tenons and thick dove tails, etc. The factory blade cut some pretty nice dove tails in thin stock using a 7 degree home made guide in practice yesterday. So I will need to be able to change blades periodically.

I am starting a build an a custom Roubo styled workbench. Something I have wanted to build my whole life! Check it out: Benchcrafted

Woolly


----------



## Swede

I appreciate your post I had considered purchasing a Powermatic band saw but after reading this I am not so sure anymore. My father told me that Powermatic was overpriced and not made in the USA but I thought…


----------



## stefang

I am pretty surprised at your experience. I've had to clean up the drool after seeing some Powermatic bandsaws in videos, etc. I bought an inexpensive 18" Woodfast bandsaw made in China. It resaws great and does everything I ask of it (except serving cold beer). I am thinking now that I'm even happier with it after reading about your experience so far. I've been using mine for a couple of years now and I'm still just as happy with it. Here is a blog I did on it when I got it.

http://lumberjocks.com/stefang/blog/16611


----------



## Woollymonster

Swede and Stefang,

Your father is right. There are no power tools of any kind made in the USA anymore. All of those jobs have been outsourced long ago. Powermatic over priced? Well so far I would have to agree. There is a lot of steel and iron there but if it can't do the job then whats the point in spending the extra cash? Conversation piece? I still have not received the 1.25" re-saw blade I ordered from Action Industrial so I can't' make any further assessments from my original post. I was considering a Rikon prior to buying the Powermatic. Good reviews from their sponsored sources. But all the "sponsored sources" give good reviews to companies who sponsor them, Powermatic included. I wrote Rikon and asked where their saws were made and got no response.

I would say just get the cheapest tool that will do a satisfactory job and when it craps out, junk it and get another one. What really are your options?

Walter Meier Group is the outsourcing company for Powermatic, Jet, Wilton, and Nortec. So "brand loyalty" and pride don't exist in my opinion. Stevfang: I too was drooling over those videos too. One of the major factors why I spent over $5K on this saw. But now that I recall there was actually no on in those videos working wood! I will make this saw work one way or the other, even if I have to machine some parts myself and fix some of it's design flaws. Again, what choice do I have?

Woolly


----------



## stefang

I remember when the Japanese began selling a lot of stuff to the U.S. not long after the war. It was very poor quality stuff, but they steadily improved, just as Taiwan has done. I think the chinese will do the same if current trends continue. It just takes time. I do think it is a shame that with automation and modern mfg. methods that the U.S. can't compete. I guess like so many other (European) nations that they have made it too difficult for mfg. firms to survive. That makes me wonder why Germany is the exception to the rule and continues to export high quality goods and still make a profit. Maybe others should take a closer look at their way of doing things. Of course we know one thing, and that is, that quality is still an important factor.


----------



## xylophage

Should have bought a Laguna…..


----------



## Woollymonster

Laguna…. Yeah.


----------



## AHuxley

First, sorry to hear about your issues, I have been hands on with that saw several times and having not chenged the thrust bearing position left to right I found it a pleasure to use and I am a bandsaw snob.

Second, blade length should NEVER be an issue, if you are buying blades from a source that only sells certain lengths you are almost surely over paying. Find a local (Houston will have a ton) or internet (Spectrum Supply is excellent) industrial supply that welds from bandstock, better bands, cheaper prices and just the length you need.

Third, regarding band choice if you are planning tall resaws and want the best finish possible one of the carbide tipped blades is mandatory. Bimetal blades will have set teeth and though they are one of the most cost effective solutions even compared to the durability of carbide they will not leave the finish non-set carbide teeth will. The very best of the lot is the Laguna Resaw King, think what you want about Laguna this is an area they shine. Second and third on the list would be the Lenox Trimaster and Woodmaster CT. None of these three blades are cheap but they certainly are unmatched at the job of resawing. I have never been put off by crappy stock blades on bandsaws, they ship with them to keep the upper wheel from bouncing around and possibly doing damage. None of the saws come with a good blade (unless you pay extra for it) the high-end Italian, Austrian and US built saws come with junk too but generally when they are sold the vendor gets an order for a good blade and loads that on, or either throws it in as part of the deal. Think about it, most good table saws don't ship with a blade.

Fourth, sorry to hear you paid so much for the saw, that saw along with most Jet/PM stuff goes on sale several times a year and residential liftgate shipped (which is included in PM prices) usually runs a little less than $3,400.

Finally, if you are totally unhappy and are able to get your money back consider Agazzani or Minimax. Both these saws are built in Italy and have a serious following. My Minimax MM20 20" saw bests the PM in just about every area with even more resaw height and costs less than you spent.

As an aside you can buy most any woodworking machine still made completely here in the US (TS, DP, jointer, planer, bandsaw etc) but they are priced significantly more than your PM1800 and thats the reason they rarely come up in forum discussions. I have several US and Asian made PM machines and have been happy with all of them. I don't grouse about the fact they are made in Asia now simply because if they were made in the US I wouldn't be able to afford them and I have a fairly healthy WWing budget. Case in point I own a PM 141, arguably the best cast iron 14" bandsaw ever made. The last time it was listed in the PM catalog was I think 1989 (still US made) at the time the list price was over $1,900 for a fully functional saw (you could still buy it sans motor etc, like the old ala carte days). That saw would easily be over $3,000 now if still built in the US but I doubt very many or any would be sold to hobby woodworkers at that price or even the 1989 price. For the folks that complain about Asian machines I simply say call Northfield make an order for what you want (they have option lists as long as Porsche) and make sure your credit card can handle the shock.

In the end I think you will be happy with the saw, it is the closest the Asians have come to matching the Italian saws but it is indeed not perfect. Getting one of the premier carbide resaw blades will make a boat load of difference!


----------



## xylophage

I just want to add one more comment….Taiwan is part of China….? I really don't think it matters weather a machine is made in Taiwan or China proper. What matters is the standards that the parent company holds to their manufactures to.


----------



## sawtooth01

I signed up for lj just so i could respond to your review. I work in a mill shop where among other things, we cut undereds of book matched skins for acoustic guitars. So I know a thing or two about re/sawing. In our shop we have a 24"/24" mini max and a 24"/24" Laguna. The saw of choice is the Laguna, but the Mini max is not a bad machine. They are almost identical machines in every way. I think they might even be made by the same manufacture in Italy. The only reasons i prefer the Laguna is, it has about 1.5 more horse power than the mini max, and it tends to cut smoother with less hesitation and vibrations. I have had experience using Powermatic bandsaw among others. I'm sad to say they dont even come close to machines like Felder, Mini max, and Laguna. I would take AHuxly's advice and return it. I don't know what you paid for your's, it list for $5,000(WOW). For $400 hundred dollars more you could get the 24"/24" Laguna. You would get 6" more re/saw and 1 horsepower more. I hope what ever you do things work out, good luck.


----------



## AHuxley

@xylophage although the basis of your post is true, in general China handles the lower specced machines and Taiwan handles the higher specced machine, as a broad generalization it works but there are exceptions

@sawtooth Laguna saws are built by ACM and Minimax saws are built by Cantauro they as well as Agazzani are built within a stones throw of each other in Northern Italy. Torbin at Laguna is a big fan of HP and specs the LT 20 and LT24 with 6hp motors the MM come with 4.8hp motors (non-Nema factional size since they are European). The Minimax saws are built significantly heavier and have a triple beam spine my MM20 weighs more than a Laguna LT24/24 and the MM24 weighs about 250 pounds more. I have found the 4.8hp on the MM20 to be fine even with a powerfeeder but would probably want the extra 1.2hp for 23-24" resaws with a feeder. Between the 3 Italians it tends to be a toss up for me, each has its strong points. I bought based on service, support and heavy construction. I also have a LT18 which has been an excellent saw as well.

PM never made a serious bandsaw in the US, PM was really a light weight brand like Walker-Turner and Delta. To best the Euro steel spined saws with a US saw you need to look at Yates-American, Tannywitz, Oliver, Northfield and the like.


----------



## Woollymonster

*Sawtooth01:* That is good info. Thanks! What you do really puts a high capacity bandsaw to the test. I don't see this saw ever being able to cut book matched skins for guitar building (or the like) but hey, I may be surprised when the blade gets here. It has shipped. Action Industrial is slow to fill orders. I have already determined, as others have suggested, that I will return this saw if it will not perform as advertised.

*AHuxley:* Blade length is NOT an issue. It's blade width. Anyone that offers high quality blades (carbon steel, bi-metal, etc.), will build you a blade of any length. I had trouble locating one of any kind that was 1.5" in width. I ordered a 1.25" WoodMaster Bi-Metal. But it is of no consequence for the PM1800 because in order to install a 1.5" blade on the saw, you must remove the fence. The opening between the table and fence will take a maximum of 1.25" blade with the fence in place. Another design goof by Water Meier. Houston has pretty much become a Third World Country. If you can't get it at Home Depot or Lowe's, you pretty much have to order it. I had Circle Saw (the place I bought the saw) build me a 1.25" blade. It is just plane old spring steel stock because that is all they carry. According to the salesman (who had no woodworking experience), "That is all you need for cutting wood. The others are a waste of money". Yeah, right! Anyway, the weld on this blade is not square so the blade pulsates fore and aft so badly that it is unusable. The next time I feel like spending all day and $4/gal gas to make the 120 mile round trip into the bowels of Houston, I will go get my $30 back. It is just makes more sense for me to order online.

Thanks for all the good info. Wish I had known this before I bought it!

Woolly


----------



## AHuxley

There are not a lot of 1.5" blades I have several but they are all carbon. The only ones I know of in carbide or M-42 (bimetal) have backer stock that is too thick for that saw, they are in the .050 range!

While I agree they shouldn't advertise the saw as taking a 1.5" blade if it is a pain to put on it wouldn't be the first, I know of dozens of bandsaws that the max width blade is difficult to impossible to get on. This should really be a moot point in that if you are using bi-metal or carbide tipped blades that saw isn't going to tension them up to near 30,000psi anyway. My MM20 (heavier spine than the PM1800) won't tension a 1.5" x .035" blade to 25,0000+. I only use carbide on the saw so I don't go past 1.25" in width. IF Laguna made a 1.5" Resaw King in .025" like the other sizes I would go there but nobody makes a small cross section 1.5" blade that I know of. In the end the advertising of the 1.5" blade capacity is frustrating but the reality is there aren't 1.5" bi-metal or carbide blades available that would work on an 18" wheeled saw anyway.

I have had very good luck with Spectrum Supply and Iturra Design (you will have to call Iturra, they are in Jax FL) and both seem to take a lot of care with their welds, the exact opposite of what I have found with Suffolk (Timber Wolf).

Good luck.


----------



## xylophage

Hey, just curious. How have you made out with the saw? I recently looked at one of your saws at Woodcraft. I have to say it is an impressive looking saw. Have you found any blades to harness its potential yet?


----------



## Woollymonster

I got in a Timber Wolf 1/2" blade this week and it cuts/tracks a lot better than the factory blade. I'm still searching for the perfect tension for this blade. It also has a lot of lead. Using the "straight line" board cutting method, I can adjust out the lead in the fence but it takes all the adjustment that is available. The fence sits on the table with about a full inch of skew. It makes the scale on the fence useless but at least I can use the fence for ripping and small cap re-sawing with this blade. Free handing is no problem at all. Any ideas? I have read the Timber Wolf manual.

I had to send my Woodcutter 1.25" blade back to be re-welded. It was a foot too long when it arrived. Should have it back this week also and I will post the results. I have to get this saw where it will rip long large stock (8/4 over 8' long) and re-saw large stock. If not, then the mass and cost of it is just a waste. So far, it just performs like the Home Cheapo brands.

Hope I get it figured out with the new blade.


----------



## stefang

This sounds all wrong to me Woolymonster. I think something is really out of whack if you have that much lead. A lot of stuff could cause this such as:

1. Upper and lower wheels not planar
2. Blade not tracked properly
3. Guides not adjusted correctly (did you loosen the guides before tracking and tensioning up?)
4. Motor angle incorrect (if adjustable)
5. Blade not correctly tensioned
6. Whatever else I forgot about

You are probably familiar with all the above, but I'm mentioning it just in case you missed something. It's easy to do.


----------



## Woollymonster

Stefang;

1. Not sure how to accurately check plane of wheels. Nothing in the manual.
2. All four blades I have had on the machine track perfectly in the center of the tires. This is one of the nicer adjustments on the saw.
3. I use the methods in the manual to set the guides and thrust baring. Seams straight forward and like other saws (except for the problem with the lower thrust baring). On the Timber Wolf blade, I used their instructions for tensioning. Otherwise the saw has a scale on the back for tensioning. Any words of wisdom there?
4. Don't know about motor angle. I will check. Those belts do make an ear splitting screech for about 4 seconds when hitting the power on. It may be poor quality belts.
5. I have played with tension a lot.
6. Is it possible that the blades I have used so far just have that bad of a set on them to make them track sideways?

Thanks,
Woolly


----------



## stefang

Sorry, dumb of me, but I didn't mean motor angle I meant the lower wheel axle angle. Mine is adjustable so I just assumed that other brands are too. If you do attempt adjusting it I would suggest that before you do to take a good photo of the present location of the axle adjustment screws in case you have to go back to it.

As far as the wheels being planar, if you blade is tracking in the same location on both wheels, then they are probably properly aligned well enough and the lower wheel axle is probably adjusted correctly.

Lastly a declaimer. There are folks around with a lot more knowledge on this subject than myself. Have you tried to get advice from your vendor or perhaps you can get someone at Fine Woodworking or some other woodworking magazine to give you some advice on the problems you are having, or hopefully someone else here on LJ who can either confirm my advice or better it.


----------



## Woollymonster

*My follow up:*

I said that I would post a follow up to my review when I got some decent blades on this saw. I have and here it is:

I am currently working with a Woodmaster Bi-Metal 1.25", two Timberwolf 3/4" (different TPI), a Timberwolf 1/2", and a junk 1/4" built at one of our local stores.

*One big issue*: The biggest issue that I seem to have solved with this saw was the gross blade lead/tracking problem. Even though the manual stated that the table was set square to the blade at the factory and should not need user adjustments, *it was not even close*. I knew this was the case after using the straight line free hand cutting method to measure blade lead. I knew that the table had to be askew when it took all the lateral adjustment available to to set the rip/re-saw fence so that it would cut fairly straight.

But accurately measuring the table against the saw blade for square is difficult because the blade is small and it also gives when you put a straight edge against it. So a bigger blade is better for this test. I installed the 1.25" Woodmaster and found the table was mounted on it's trunnion to be out of square from front to back by about 1/4". No surprise there given the way it was cutting. So the next task was to loosen the four bolts that hold the table to the trunnion and square the table to the blade. This is easier said than done but after a lot of fiddling, measuring, test cutting, rinse and repeat, I got the table squared up to the blade.

I then went back and re-squared the fence in all three axis and performed some test cuts. I took about a 3' section of 2×12 I had on hand from China Cheapo and re-sawed a couple of relatively thin veneers from the face. Then re-sawed the board in half with no problem. Hallelujah!!! The saw will now cut straight! The results of the cuts were very usable. I don't recommend test cuts on construction grade lumber. A 2×12 does not make saw dust. It makes saw paste. I spent the next 30 minutes cleaning sap/pitch out of all the guides, tires, etc. How Chris Schwarz ever made work benches out of this stuff is beyond me. I did some tracking test with smaller boards, some dove tail test cuts, and some free hand circles with no problem. Impressed?

On another note: The 1.25" blade is a bear to remove. I wrestled for a long time to get it out of the narrow slot on the left side. I know I had to do some damage to the blade tips. There is just not enough clearance there to get the big unwieldy blades out. I also don't see how you could use the 1.5" blade on this saw (even if you didn't have to remove the fence rails) because the 1.25" covers the width of the tire. And good luck getting that one out of there. So if you feel like paying $5k for a saw to be set up as a permanent re-saw tool and don't mind going through all this other hassle, this one will work fine. You will not find blade changes as casual as advertised by any stretch. Changing small blades is easy.

*Another issue*: I fixed (I think) the ear splitting screech heard for about 5 seconds after you hit the ON button. Again, the manual states, "The weight of the motor should be enough to tension the drive belt adequately". Its not. It is not clear just how much tension should be on the belt. The manual says "1/2 inch of play" but neglects to mention how much force it takes to get that 1/2 inch. I just set mine so it does not screech anymore. Maybe some belt dressing is in order. I don't expect this flimsy little belt to last very long but we will see.

The other flaws that I and others have uncovered will just have to be lived with I suppose. Given the astronomical price, design flaws, difficulty of blade changes and set up, lack of out of the box performance, I would still have to rate this machine at TWO STARS.

Other opinions may vary.

Woolly


----------



## stefang

Glad you are on the right 'track' now Woolly and can enjoy the benefits of the big saw. Have fun!


----------



## seniorasi

Thanks for all the info in the reviews and posts. I've been researching for a few months now trying to figure out the best saw to buy regardless of price. Considerations are:

1. Cut quality
2. Ease of use and setup
3. Customer service (This one carries a massive amount of weight)
4. Did I say ease of setup and use?

I am really dismayed by the reviews here of the PM1800. I was my last hope to find a saw designed by Americans that actually works right out of the box. I made several attempts to actually see one in person. There is a wood worker show in Atlanta the 6th through the 8th of March 2015. I telephoned the factory to see if the bandsaw of my dreams would be present. They couldn't tell me if it would be there or not. Really??? I asked to come to the factory to see one. They said they didn't do that. Not a single distributor of Powermatic products has one in stock. They all drop ship from the factory.

I've long thought about the Laguna. A friend that makes Windsor chairs for a living bought one 5 years ago and he reports it is nickel and dimeing him to death and the customer service absolutely sucks.

Bottom line is I'll scrap the Powermatic plan and buy a Grizzly. At least it's a lower priced piece of crap bandsaw. When it bites the dust ( due to no parts available because they discontinued the model ) I'll scrap it and buy another.

Thanks for all the reviews, advice and comments. I've found them most helpful.


----------

