# Short Rip Fence is safer. Do you agree with this guy ?



## MonteCristo (May 29, 2012)

In post http://lumberjocks.com/topics/2012, Bevel Ripping on a Table Saw With Right Tilting Blade, there is a reference to a YouTube video, 



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The video is by a guy at "Workshop Essentials". In his video he extolls the safety merits of a short rip fence. I think this guy is giving really bad advice in that video. I think he has not thought this through well enough.

With his short rip fence the workpiece is under less control as the end of the cut is appoached because it has almost no contack with the (short) fence which is guiding it and of course no contact with the long rip fence. I would argue that this INCREASES the risk of kickback, not to mention that it will produce a poor quality of cut as the chance of the workpiece squeegeeng is much higher.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

Yes, I agree with him.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

I think Steve is a very bright guy but I would prefer to just move the fence to the other side of the blade.


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

I prefer to move the saw, while the stock is secured, thank God for Festool and other plunge saws.

Yeah buddy.

Or, fence on the left side is my preferred method.


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## TedW (May 6, 2012)

I like his method. If there is no fence at the back edge of the blade, there is nothing to pinch the wood. And since the wood is already been cut at that point, there is no real purpose for the fence extending beyond the back of the blade. It's the front of the fence that keeps the work piece in a straight line. In fact, I see no purpose for the fence anywhere beyond the front cutting edge of the blade, other than to pinch the work piece.

I've been pondering this since reading that thread last night, and I can clearly see the merits of that method.


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## MonteCristo (May 29, 2012)

Just to clarify, it's not the right tilt bevel cut bit of the post that I am talking about, it's the video that someone included in a reply that deals with a short stub fence (see the YouTube link I give). Some guys use a stub fence for crosscut work to make sure the offcut is not bound between the blade and the fence (main piece guided by a miter gauge) but this video advocates using a stub fence for ripping, something I think is a flawed idea.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

A retracted position fence is safer in ripping solid woods
on the table saw. For ripping sheet goods I slide my
fence extrusion full-forward so it extends back behind 
the riving knife. For all solid wood rips on the table saw
I pull the extrusion back. This allows the wood to go 
either right or left as tension is released in cutting. If 
the tension pushes it towards the blade, the riving
knife prevents binding and kickback. If the tension
pushes the wood right, the fence isn't in the way 
and there is no kickback that way either.

That's why and when it is safer.

In cutting sheet goods the retracted fence doesn't 
matter much in terms of kickback but it tends to be 
easier to feed a full sheet of ply against the fence when 
it is in a less than full retracted position.

I use an Austrian made saw. I had some Swiss/French
saws before and came to prefer this method of work.


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## rdjack21 (May 21, 2010)

If you ask me I think that the Delta unifence took design inspiration from European saws. (Disclaimer I have one on my UniSaw)

1) The fence can me retracted so that you have a short fence 
2) The fence can be rotated so that you have a low fence and possibly short fence as well.

I actually purchased a short fence for my unifence so that the long fence would not be in the way when I retract the fence such that it does not go past the blade.

I agree with Loren above in all reality you do not need a long fence once the work piece is cut at the front of the blade the fence behind the blade is not needed. But I also do agree that when cutting sheet goods I do use the full fence.

Oh and I did add a BORK to my saw which solves the no riving knife issue on the UniSaw. The past owner of my saw had removed the splitter so I did not even have that but I've been thinking of getting one a putting it back on along with the BORK.


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## MonteCristo (May 29, 2012)

Loren:

I understand your points but I remain unconvinced. It seems obvious to me that with the short fence the quality of cut will suffer. I would also argue that one has less control of the workpiece near the ned of the cut when using a short fence and that could lead to jamming the blade within the cut.

I use a riving knife as I agree that stress in solid woods is always a possibility. With the riving knife, kickback should not be possible, but I acknowledge that if the stress expands the piece between the blade and the fence, in a severe case it will cause a jam. For my money, this is a risk worth taking, as I can easily kill the power before anything further ensues.

It seems to me that even with a short fence, stress in the workpiece could lead to a jam in the case where the stress causes the workpiece to bear-hug the riving knife.

Kelly Mehler wrote Taunton Press's book on the table saw. He's a super safety type of guy but if I remember correctly even he doesn't advocate for a short fence when ripping.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

That's why I love my Unifence, I can flip it to a short fence for narrow stock or retract it. The vid does make some sense to me although I've never tried it during ripping, maybe I will tomorrow and post back my thoughts.


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## TedW (May 6, 2012)

I tried some cuts with a scrap attached to my fence, that ended about 2/3 of the way to the back of the blade. What I discovered is that really short pieces, say 6", can (and did) get caught and thrown back at me. Of course, I normally use other methods to cut pieces that small, such as the sled or by hand, but I was curious.

For longer pieces it works like a charm.

This is without tilting the blade. I have to make another insert for bevel cuts. Not sure but I might get to that today.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

MC, I definitely see your point. I think it depends somewhat on the length of the board you are ripping.

Making a lot of small boxes, I frequently rip some pretty short pieces, using my Grr-ripper and maintaining pressure against the fence. In that situation, you really need some fence out past the blade to keep the board on track all the way through the cut.

However, in a situation where you are feeding the board from behind the blade the whole time, I would agree there is no need for the fence to extend past the blade.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

My first instinct was that short boards would be more problematic but really what is the difference between short and long other than the amount of wood on the outboard side of the blade? Maybe the greater mass allows more control? Don't know, still have to try it for myself.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

wormil: In the scenario I'm describing, I use my push block on top of the board, all through the cut. Without the long fence, there would be nothing to keep my hand from turning the board off course before the cut was completed. If you are just pushing the board from the rear, it doesn't really matter.


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## MonteCristo (May 29, 2012)

I have a jig that I use to avoid trapping the offcut between the blade and the fence when bevelling with a right-tilt saw. The same jig would work if one is suspicious that stress in the wood is going to cause a jam. I got the idea from Fine WW or somewhere like that. I'll post a pix sometime when I have time.


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

I should check, but I think the long fence used in US is simply forbidden in Europe for safety reasons.

The recommendations are:
for cross cutting : the fence should not go beyond the front teeth
for riping : the fence should go sensibly at the middle between front teeth and axle
for panel cut : the fence should stop at the axle or just a little bit further

(translated from French and I am not a native English speaker)
If you read French look page 13 of the PDF document here.
http://www.inrs.fr/accueil/produits/mediatheque/doc/publications.html?refINRS=ND%202161
As Uk is in Europe It should be possible to find a UK document with the same recommendations.


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## MonteCristo (May 29, 2012)

@CharlieM1958

Your last comment is basically why I feel the long fence is worth it. You can't possibly control the workpiece as well during the last bit of the cut with a short fence. If you use a high quality glue line rip blade to put a joint quality edge on a board, you want that high level of control.

I think the European standards are overkill. Reminds me of the guard that came with the last radial arm saw I bought. It was absolutely ridiculous. If the manufacturer cared two hoots about safety, they would have removed the ripping option on the saw and made it operate similar to a miter saw.

I wonder how many of these table saws that pitch stuff at the operator do so because the fence is not properly set parallel to the blade and the splitter/riving knife has been taken off ? Or the splitter being used is the factory issued one that is for thin kerf blades and now the saw has a blade on it that requires a 1/8" thick splitter ?


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

I wonder how many of these table saws that pitch stuff at the operator do so because the fence is not properly set parallel to the blade

I assume most, that or a momentary lack of focus.

I wish I had a riving knife. Someone mentioned a Bork earlier which I googled but the website was terrible and there was no picture of it. My Delta came with a terrible splitter and blade guard. I tried using them for about a year but kept having to take them off so finally I left them off and they've been off for well over ten years. Knowing too many people missing fingers, I tend to be very paranoid of spinning blades and so far I haven't had a kickback.


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## MonteCristo (May 29, 2012)

@wormil

I have a detachable splitter on my Unisaw. I got it along with their Uniguard. Maybe you could put this splitter on your saw. It's easy to remove and reinstall. Another trick I use is to make throat plates with a splitter included. This way I have a splitter that is exactly the right thickness for each of the blades I use. Lee Valley sells phenolic throat plates or just make them out of Baltic Birch plywood.

Aside from the safety issue, the correct splitter will improve the finish on your cuts because the wood will track the fence even better. This effect is only really noticeable when using a really high quality blade like a Forrest WWII for example.


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## TajBuilder (Aug 6, 2008)

I came across this thread as I considering whether I should buy a 36" or 43" aftermarket fence for my Unisaw and agree with Monte that a longer fence is better because it allows you to keep the work piece registered against the fence throughout the cut. If the kerf does result in the piece opening and trying to move to the right it makes no difference because it is still supported by the fence. Also, the guy in this video is trying to rip some very narrow pieces next to the fence. The safer way to make the cut he is attempting is to have the narrow strip on the left side of the blade. Rocker has a new jig that allows you to get consistent results making narrow rips. I have this jig and it works as advertised.

http://www.rockler.com/search/go?p=R&srid=S12-USWSD02&lbc=rockler&w=table%20saw%20jig&url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.rockler.com%2fthin-rip-tablesaw-jig&rk=5&uid=495071611&sid=2&ts=custom&rsc=Kg3p45WRkoPnmbA9&method=and&isort=score&view=grid&modurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.rockler.com%2fthin-rip-tablesaw-jig

I also noticed that as this guy pushed his piece, the front end lifted and almost kicked back. This happened because he couldn't fit his push stick between the guard and fence and wasn't able to put any downward pressure against the piece. If he had removed the guard and splitter and used a G Ripper, his short fence could have cause even more problems because both pieces would have been free of the fence at the same time while only being controlled by the G Ripper. If he moved slightly right or left he would be screwed.

In case anyone is interested, this is the new fence I'm considering for my Unifence. Please let me know if anyone has any experience with this.

http://www.ttrackusa.com/unifence.htm


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## RT31 (Nov 11, 2013)

I've used the method in the video to get me out of a jam and it worked fine. Cuts were very straight and smooth when ripping 5' long boards.

Its the same idea as setting the back of the fence a few thousandths of an inch away from the blade. just taken to the extreme.


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## JGM0658 (Aug 16, 2011)

I agree with Loren, I don't see a problem with the short fence. I do think his push stick is dumb.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

Since responding 1.5+ years ago I've had a chance to try this since my Unifence is adjustable forward and back and it felt really awkward. I can't say it is more or less safe but I didn't like it.


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## TajBuilder (Aug 6, 2008)

I've done some more research on this issue and can see where having a short fence is helpful if the fence isn't perfectly parallel to the blade. If the back of the fence is tilted only slightly toward the blade, the error is compounded as the fence gets longer. Modern T-square fences could be very hazardous if they aren't properly tuned because they lock exactly where they are adjusted to lock. That said, my Unifence is dead on and I don't see where a shorter fence is necessary for added safety, particularly since I always use a splitter when ripping. Years ago and prior to getting my Unifence I developed the habit of always setting the fence by moving it from right to left. Doing it this way makes it more likely that back of the fence will end up either parallel to or a few thousandths of an inch away from the blade.


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## ferstler (Oct 5, 2008)

I have cut a lot of wood on my table saw, including short and long pieces (I used to make furniture but now mostly make artistic collages, chessboards, frames, and wood sculptures out of very small wood pieces), and have yet to experience kickback. For me, the trick is to have the fence VERY slightly angled away from the blade. That reduces the chance of pinching and throwing. Paying close attention also is important, and I never stand in a position where a kickback would throw a piece in my direction. My table saw is a jobsite style (Ridgid 4510), and so I can stand all the way to the side when cutting risky items.

In any case, when I am ripping small pieces I use my well-aligned band saw, with its Timberwolf 10 tpi blade and its custom-made fence. No kickback with that combination.

Howard Ferstler


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## TajBuilder (Aug 6, 2008)

This past week I was ripping some very dry 2×4 oak pallet bottoms with my 43" Unifence positioned so it extended well beyond the blade. I had my Biesmeyer splitter in place. About halfway through the cut I could tell that the kerf was opening to the right and the piece was springing back against the splitter. I completed the cut without incident but the piece that had been against the fence was curved like a hockey stick. Had I not had the splitter in place, I'm sure I would have had a kickback. I now see where this situation would have been avoided all together if I hadn't had the fence so far forward of the blade.


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## bigblockyeti (Sep 9, 2013)

I have a Unifence and will slide it toward me when cutting long stock or sheet materials to get establish good contact before touching the blade. I do not think this is a worth while effort when using a splitter or riving knife otherwise.


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