# what wood would be black bear resistant?



## fiddlebanshee (May 3, 2010)

We're moving to a mountain top in Maryland soon, and we have had bear sightings around the house (including paw marks on our freshly poured concrete porch). We also want to start composting but are afraid of attracting bears and creating a bigger problem.

So I know that bears can tear through a lot of things easily. I wondered if there was a really strong and hard wood that bears would have a tough time chewing, tearing through, that we could use to protect the compost pile from their access (basically just building a box that is bolted together with tiny holes for airflow?)

Any ideas? Anyone done this? Should I give it up? Let me hear it!


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## armylogger (May 4, 2010)

About the only thing that you are going to be able to make bear resistant is going to have to be made out of steel. I suggest building your compost box and the putting a steel cage around it. You could weld it up out of some old rebar steel or something like that. Maybe some old metal t-posts or sign posts. If you build it out of wood it doesn't really matter what kind of wood you build it out of, if a bear wants inside, he will get inside.


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## MrsN (Sep 29, 2008)

The cabin I go to every summer has bears around (northern wisconsin) the garbage cans are enclosed in a steel cage, sides and top. It sits on a concrete pad that extends beyond the edge of the cage, to prevent digging under I suppose. The door has locking pins in the floor, top and by the handle. The locking mechanisim has a few steps to it (like lift up, turn then pull).

Mrs. N


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## AuroraWoodworks (Nov 6, 2009)

Even if you were to build a bear-proof system, the scent will still draw them in. Do you really want the bears hanging around your house? Bird feeders are another thing that draws bears in.


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## Dennisgrosen (Nov 14, 2009)

hello fiddlebanshee

you cuold use one of those rotateting composters (or make one simular)
yaae a bear could easely breake it but they are closed
and compost very fast if you remember to rotate the drum every day

if you use the more tradition model
then you always put it in the mittle and turn the top of the compost so it always stay warm
70-80 degreese celcius

and I think if the bear want salat/carots/potatoes/etc. it woooood bee alot easyer
for him to just dig it up from the garden….....LOL

Dennis


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## spclPatrolGroup (Jun 23, 2010)

Its important to know what kind of bear you are dealing with,

In light of the rising frequency of human - grizzly bear conflicts, the Alaska Department of Fish and Game is advising hikers, hunters, and fishermen to take extra precautions and keep alert of bears while in the field.

We advise that outdoorsmen wear noisy little bells on their clothing so as not to startle bears that aren't expecting them. We also advise outdoorsmen to carry pepper spray with them in case of an encounter with a bear. It is also a good idea to watch out for fresh signs of bear activity.

Outdoorsmen should recognize the difference between black bear & grizzly bear excrement. Black bear excrement is smaller and contains lots of berries and squirrel fur. Grizzly bear excrement has little bells in it and smells like pepper.


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## ropedog (Mar 26, 2008)

Thanks for the info PatrolGroup but there are no grizzly bears in Maryland,only black bears. I live in the mountains of colorado and we have all sorts of wild life up here bears,mountain lions, bob cats ,coyotes you name it,and thats why we don't compost to much risk of having these animals around the house. No matter what you put around it they will come to investigate.


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## Dennisgrosen (Nov 14, 2009)

Roper
sorry for my stupidity , but what is bob cats the only one I now is a sled used on an icetrack :-0

Dennis


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## ropedog (Mar 26, 2008)

you know a bob cat or maybe the tech term would be a lynx, small wild mountain cats that eat rabbits and other small furry creatures.


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## Dennisgrosen (Nov 14, 2009)

thank´s Roper
I know what a Lynx is 

Dennis


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## RedShirt013 (May 17, 2008)

lol Dave that bit about the Grizzley bear dropping is hilarious.


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## pvwoodcrafts (Aug 31, 2007)

Moving to the mountain top? I'm in Garrett Co. 12 to 16/4 red oak with 1/2 in bolts might discourage them. But if your gonna attract them they'll find something to tear up. We have had contractors that have had them bust the windows out of their vehicles for their lunch bucket, can't leave bird feeders out while there not hibernating either. Can't even leave bagged birdseed in your garage. The black devils will tear your garage door off for black oil sunflower seeds. But their not a problem everywhere here, just where their concentrated


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## Knothead62 (Apr 17, 2010)

Anything made out of heavy metal would do the trick. Wood only slows them down. If they don't get in the first time, they come back later to finish the job. Here in the South, chainlink fencing is used on one side of three-sided shelters along the Applachian Trail.
Also, check with your state fish and game people as to what they recommend. You can get that info anywhere fishing and hunting licenses are sold.
Lynx- souped up wildcat.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

Hey, *Roper*:

If I understand correctly, SOME of your local bears can DRIVE, too-although … not very well ;-)


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## mtnwild (Sep 28, 2008)

I'm with Tony. You don't want to attract them in the first place. If they can't get the compost they'll probably find something else to ravage. Probably the house. Good luck….............


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## Billp (Nov 25, 2006)

An arrow


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## jcwalleye (Dec 26, 2009)

Best way is to not put any animal matter into the compost. I don't think bears are particularly interested in rotting plants, unless it is fruits or other things with lots of sugar. They do have a taste for leftovers, bones, nuts, oils, dairy and anything else of animal nature. Bird feeders are next off the list followed by keeping garbage cans and barberques in the garage.

Here is old grumpy who was hanging around for a few years. He'd come by for the crab apples when there was a good season and knock the trash around if it was left out. He's never bothered the compost pile but it only has garden castoffs, clippings, leaves, coffee grounds, and a few egg shells.

And you should make a lot of noise as you go outside after dark.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

That's a big bear :-O


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

You don't have to go to mountain tops in the Pacific Northwest for bears, They regularly roam the suburbs around Seattle and Tacoma )


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## fiddlebanshee (May 3, 2010)

Thanks everyone for responding. No, no grizzlies where we are but black bears. We have built a house just north of Gambrill Park near Frederick, MD, to the east is a municipal forest and to the north is Catoctin Mountain National Park (where Camp David is) and Cunningham Falls State Park. To the west is an abandoned farm that is in conservation easement. So wildlife over there basically has a large uninterrupted wooded area to roam.

I did some research about odors and compost and it seems that if you do not put in any scrap meat, bones or dairy and keep the balance just right there would hardly be any smell and therefore they would not attract a lot of attention from bears. I've also read that adding ammonia in or around your compost heap would discourage them. We might try it just to see if it is a problem. From your answers I guess I should forget building it from wood, although I did think about oak 4×4 with big bolts. Oh, well, will have to think about this some more.

We bought some bear proof trashcans, which we will keep outside, so we'll see how well those will work.


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## tnwood (Dec 13, 2009)

Having lived among the black bears in NH for many years and having lost many bird feeders, trash barrels awaiting pickup, and various berries in season to them, I recommend using a steel containment area or electric fencing. While large oak or ash might work, bears are persistent and will work at something they want until they get it. The general rule is not to leave anything they might want which is most food products. It is important to recognize you are moving to their home and not the reverse. Give them room to live and don't bother them. They are great neighbors.


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## Knothead62 (Apr 17, 2010)

Keep the trashcans secured so B'rer Bear doesn't knock them around to get into them. You might scatter some mothballs around the trashcans and compost area. Ammonia would work but it would also evaporate quickly. Mothballs will last several days. I've found that works for small critters as squirrels.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

My advice is that if you are going to live on a remote mountain top then DON"T bring your city lifestyle with you. Leave it it in the city. Minimize cut lawns, gardens, feeders, etc. Nature was doing fine before you got there so don't try changing the environment to "suit" your desires. I am not trying to be a smarta__ about this, but if you are moving to the mountain top because of your "love of nature" then you need to do the adapting to the environment and not expect the animals to "learn" to put up with your alien-to-them habits.

And yes, I used to be a park ranger and got very tired of explaining to people why it was a poor choice to store food in there cars, tents, picnic tables, backpacks, non bear-proof trashcans,etc. And DO NOT put up an all-night boogyman light "just because" you're afraid of the dark. If you happen to be afraid of the dark then stay in the city. 
Just my 2-cents worth…


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## fiddlebanshee (May 3, 2010)

@ horizontalMike,
Wow, you're jumping to conclusions, aren't you? What did I say to make you deduce I have a city life style, or that I was going to be in a constant battle with my environment? I happen to like bears and other wildlife, and my question was just to make sure that both the bears and I would be safe.

Just don't know how to react to this, other than to say that you have an enormous chip on your shoulder.


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## ropedog (Mar 26, 2008)

Where the hell did that come from mike, you must have just needed to vent.


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## Gregn (Mar 26, 2010)

When I lived in Wisconsin I had a friend who hung his composter between 2 tall trees on steel cable at the back edge of his property. He used a big old hand winch to lower and raise the 55 gal. barrel which hung from the middle of the steel cable between the 2 trees. The bears could climb the trees but couldn't reach the barrel.


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## fiddlebanshee (May 3, 2010)

That's an interesting concept. I'm aware you can do that with foodcontainers when going camping but it never entered my mind that it could apply to a compost container as well. Another idea to ponder!

Please keep them coming. That's why I like being part of LumberJocks so much-the creativity and the willingness to share.


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## Gregn (Mar 26, 2010)

It was fun to watch the bears try to get at it. They are fast learners and after a couple of years there were few older bears that would try. He would still get an occasional juvenile that would try it but they to soon give up.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Yep, a big chip. I did get tired of "city" campers coming to our National Parks and not following appropriate protocol when it came to the wildlife. You would be amazed at how many folks come to our remote parks and are clueless how to act, camp, cook, live, etc. in truly wild areas.

But after all, you did ASK so please don't act surprised. I don't like to be "baited" into responding any more than the next person:

"Any ideas? Anyone done this? Should I give it up? Let me hear it!"


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## Gregn (Mar 26, 2010)

Sorry to hear about your problem Mike. Unfortunately the subject wasn't about camping, but about peaceful coexistence with wildlife. Many people live in areas where wildlife also resides with them. Living in areas where trash pick up may not be available, people need to think of safe and environmental ways of disposing of their waste. No one baited you, they just were trying to understand where you were coming from. Being a former Park Ranger I'm surprised that you didn't offer any real advice on how to coexist with wildlife where you live. I've lived in many parts of the country where you had to deal with wildlife, where Park Rangers were glad to help educate residents on how to exist with wildlife. You'd be surprised at the wildlife that lives in our cities, let alone mountain tops or any other area for that matter. I don't expect you to respond to this because I can image what it would be already, and am not looking for a debate. Hope you have a nice day.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Please, this person is only waiting to justify gassing the bears with ammonia or mothballs around her "compost" heap, that she refuses to give up on, despite the several recommendations to NOT compost (see above-read them). Where the heck is moving into bear country justify gassing the bears?

An analogy for humans-I move into the house next to yours and open up a LARGE donut bakery and vent all the smells of yummy donuts into your air. I don't like selling/feeding YOUR KIND so I decide to burn all of my food and other noxious trash in a 55 gallon drum in my front yard DAILY in order to drive you away. Sounds obnoxious, SURE. *That's what the bear thinks also.*

Gregn, what is so "peaceful" about gassing bears out of their own environment? Where is that "peaceful" coexistence? I'll tell you what, let me wave some HCL in front of your nose (so you won't get too close and hurt me) and we'll talk. Sound fair? By the way I'm also moving into your neighborhood and you have no choice.

And I have a problem… Geez… don't get me started…


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## fiddlebanshee (May 3, 2010)

Geez!! I never said anything about gassing bears. I guess I will have to forbid all animals on my property, wild or ortherwise to pee - as pee consists for a large part of ammonia. I was actually more thinking about asking my husband to daily pee around the compost heap - it adds nitrogen, male pee has more ammonia, as does dog pee and bear pee. But I guess that would make me the bear killer of all times. I don't even know how I would go about gassing a bear. Anyone have a gasgun? There are all kinds of offensive smells in nature, some that bears like, some that they don't like - what's so bad about that. I don't like your smell, ok, I'll stay away, you don't like my smell, you do the same. I really don't see what the big deal is.

The analogy with humans-I live next door to a neighbor that uses powered tools and powered vehicles for every little task that he wants to do-do I like those exhaust smells? No. Do I like the noise? No. Can I do anything about it? No. So I move away. To have bears as my neighbors-that I prefer a hundred times over current obnoxious neighbor with leaf blower, dirt bike, power mower, chainsaw, ATV, etc. etc. Again, you are looking at me through the lens of your past experiences without knowing anything about me. And you're jumping to conclusions.

You said: "Yep, a big chip. I did get tired of "city" campers coming to our National Parks and not following appropriate protocol when it came to the wildlife. You would be amazed at how many folks come to our remote parks and are clueless how to act, camp, cook, live, etc. in truly wild areas."

I was asking a question on how to safely start a compost heap. How to prevent the bears from getting into it so that they loose interest and leave searching for an easier meal. I'm sure the trappers that lived in the US forests before colonizations asked the same questions and came up with pretty much the same answers. It is part of cohabitation, we each carve out the niche that we can without harming each other. You have not proven to me that I would in any way harm the bears. Oh and by the way, we will not have a lawn, formal garden or any such suburban nonsense. I'm firmly planted in the eco-tradition of living with the land, not on the land. But then I'm a European, I wouldn't expect you to understand or believe this. When we lived in a rather suburban suburb of Washington DC my husband attracted a lot of attention because he mowed our lawn with a scythe.

If the answer is - it is a bad idea to have a compost heap in bearcountry, than of course, I won't do it, exactly the reason I asked. That's all you needed to say, in stead of accusing me of all kinds of behaviors that I do not subscribe to. I never mentioned camping, of which I have done a great deal and never encountered, met or otherwise endangered any bears. I have only lived about 10 years of my life in a city, all of which not in the US, so I don't even qualify as a "city" camper. You made up your mind about me from reading the title in the thread and I don't think there is anything I can say to convince you otherwise.

Please stop derailing the conversation.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

fiddlebanshee,
Ok, don't compost and don't force the bears to move away because you are moving into THEIR neighborhood. Bears don't have the choice that humans do so don't expect them to "make room" for you.

Direct and to the point you asked for.

So I know nothing about you? Well, you live roughly 30 miles from DC, in one of the most light polluted and populated areas of the country/world and traveling in that megalopolis (inter-connected cities) takes you through countless burgs and stoplights. If that is not "city" then what is? Also, you stated in your first post that you are the one who considers bears a "problem" even before you move to the mountain top (..."are afraid of attracting bears and creating a bigger problem."). "Bigger" confirms that you already consider them a problem.

Ever consider that YOU may be the problem to the bears by moving into THEIR neighborhood? Geez, why ask for advice if you are just going to blow it off until you hear what you want to hear? Several others on here are saying don't put feeders out, don't compost, don't store food in vehicles/garages, etc. It is NOT just me. I and others have offered sound advice. I am just sorry you and a couple of others do not appear to be listening to that advice. That advice is DON"T CHANGE THE BEAR'S ENVIRONMENT. Simple, but profound.

My only apology is for not sugar-coating the advice. When I used to sugar-coat my educational presentations as a park ranger folks would think "how cute" that was and go about their own way and ignore what advice was being given. I now speak much more succinctly and to the point. Re-read my first post-I believe it is still valid advice.

As requested, I am letting you hear it.
"Any ideas? Anyone done this? Should I give it up? Let me hear it!"


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## fiddlebanshee (May 3, 2010)

1. No, I don't travel through countless stoplights because I take public transportation to work. I have never ever driven to work, not in Europe where I was born, and not here in the States. I don't believe cars are the only mode of transportation. I have no choice in the place where I work. If I had the choice I would not be living near Washington DC, believe you me. Let me clarify this, my visa to live and work in this country is determined by the place where I work, if I choose another job I have to leave the States, which at this point in my life I do not want to do for a variety of reasons.

2. OK, the wording "bigger problem" was poorly chosen. I do NOT consider bears a problem. I was trying to express that I wanted to avoid bears being killed because they become dependent on trash.

3. I was not planning on putting feeders out. You keep harping on that, not me. I am also not planning to store food in vehicles or garages, why would I if I have a perfectly fine house to store that in. A house, I might add that has 12 inch thick walls. No way a bear will smell anything that is inside the house.

4. As to the compost heap, I think, after doing a lot of research online and listening to a VARIETY of opinions, yours included, that I have decided to have a compost heap outside for leaves, yard debris etc, and to have an indoor worm composter for the kitchen scraps, which will be mixed in with the outdoor heap after they have composted. I don't think I was blowing off your advice, I was blowing off your assumptions about me.

5. discussion closed.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

You're welcome.


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

electric fence and a sprinkler on a motion detector…............water and ground fault.

even bears dont come back when the sprinkler goes off, and an electirc fence finally conducts itself down to ground, and "ground" reaches their testicles.

Trust me, I forgot to unplug the system before mowing the lawn with some cheap Wal Mart piece a ******************** lawn tractor, BBQd one eye ball open and one closed,

My best advice

shoot it


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

HorizontalMike, I'm curious, what's the deal with the "booggy man light"?


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## fiddlebanshee (May 3, 2010)

Moron
Shooting bears without a permit is illegal and immoral. Besides, as a resident alien I'm not allowed to have a gun. Violence is never an option in my book.

Just my .02


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Topa,
I live in a county of 2000 sq. mi. that has roughly 9,000 pop. or about 4.5 people per sq. mi. When we get folks moving out here "in the country" to build their new houses, they nearly always put up all-night mercury vapor or sodium "boogyman lights" because they are "now" afraid of the dark that surrounds them. It shocks them that there is no longer 24/7 lighting surrounding them and they also bring with them their fear of the crime rates they see in the city. Granted crime can occur anywhere, however crime is MUCH LESS of a problem in rural areas. Never the less folks keep trying to city'fy their new-to-them place in the "country."

To answer your question: Light pollution causes numerous health problems for plants, animals and mankind:

Light Pollution Increases Risk of Breast Cancer

Artificial Outdoor Light Negatively Affects Migratory Birds, Fish, Amphibians

Long in depth article sighting many negative effects of light pollution

I could go on and on but the links above should give an idea of the seriousness of light pollution effects/dangers. I point this out because so many self-claimed "eco-conscious" folks have no clue of this health danger and insist that it is their "right" to shine their boggyman lights off of their property and onto everyone and everything else regardless of the health dangers to plant, animal, and mankind. That is my soapbox and much data to substantiate that position exists and is easily assessable online.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

fiddlebanshee said-
"I'm firmly planted in the eco-tradition of living with the land, not on the land. But then I'm a European, I wouldn't expect you to understand or believe this."

You are correct, I DON"T understand you Europeans. I'm just an American. Tell me, why have you Europeans done such a poor job (should I say ammoniated poor job) at taking care of your European bears that ya'll now want to come to America to replicate that extermination experience/practice in the hills of Maryland? Geez… 10-20 wild bears left in Austria and France, apparently NONE listed for Germany (OH WAIT! There was ONE sighted in 2006, the first one in 170 YEARS! but local Europeans quickly shot it).

"I'm sure the trappers that lived in the US forests before colonizations asked the same questions and came up with pretty much the same answers. It is part of cohabitation, we each carve out the niche that we can without harming each other." This ain't the Wild West lady. You screwed up Europe, as listed above, so quit trying to screw up America.

I have been civil with you but I do not care for your "European superiority" inference and attitude. From what you have said, you are an alien in this country with a guest worker visa (H-1B visa). Maybe you should consider taking your "Green Card" and going home. But wait a minute,... "Guest Workers" are non-immigrants so you don't even qualify a Green Card.

So the bottom line is that you, an alien temporary worker, are in this country taking an American's job while millions of Americans are unemployed. I would strongly suggest to you to try very hard to NOT tick off the local Americans during your visit in this country. Just a suggestion.


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## fiddlebanshee (May 3, 2010)

No, wrong. I do not take an American Job, I work for a International Non-Governmental Organization (part of the United Nations), that hires nationals in certain proportions - ie there are maximum quota for the number of employees from each country. If they wouldn't have hired me, they would have hired another Dutchman. I have actually firmly supported the local American economy by building a house when the housing industry was bust last year and provided employment for a year for at least two people, full time. Not to mention all the part-time subcontractors that worked on the house. What did you do to support your local economy?

I'm also not here on a H visa but on a G-4 visa, which actually gives me a green card when I retire. If you want all the details. I have been in this country for 15 years and have very many American friends that I have not managed to tick off. What must be wrong with them?

As for bears in Europe, I am from the Netherlands, I don't think there have been bears in the Netherlands for hundreds of years, if at all. EDIT: Ok I googled this because I was curious. There have not been bears in the Netherlands since the 11th century, confirmed by archeological studies. Our forests are not big enough a habitat.

Thanks for giving me a giggle with your post anyway. You brightened my day.

Again, you're jumping to conclusions about my background of which you know nothing, nada, niets.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

No conclusions, you have pretty much dug your own hole. And sadly, I helped you do that.

My sole point goes back to my first post. In America, when we talk about issues in the country we often refer to "you" in the global sense. You immediately took it as YOU personal. I would give the same advice to anyone moving to the country from the city, "don't screw it up by doing x,y, z." You wanted to take it personal so I eventually decided to show what "personal" looks like coming back at you.

In other words, be careful what you ask for. I have a graduate degree in Natural Resources Management, several years in the field working as a National Park Service Park Ranger (and in a couple of America's largest National Parks, Yosemite and Everglades among others), several other years as teacher and high school administrator with a PhD in education. Lots of titles and hoopla I'm sure, but the point is some of us know what we are talking about so check your attitude. In the past, I have been shown my ass when I have been wrong. Now I have shown you yours. How you proceed with your "visit" to America is up to you.

By the way, I paid for your ability to speak your mind(even as an alien visitor to this country) by serving 4 years in a little place called Vietnam thank you very much. What pisses me off is that you are damn near as old as I am and should know better. I am done with this. Just don't visit Texas.


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## fiddlebanshee (May 3, 2010)

you're welcome


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)




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## fiddlebanshee (May 3, 2010)

I still think that I am less wrong than you think I am. I actually agree with you on many of the points you made on the substance of the matter-such as light pollution, noise pollution and learning to live with the land in stead of wanting to change it. That's what I tried all the time to convey but perhaps my english skills are not good enough.

I have been to Texas. Great place. Haven't seen any bears there tho.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Most of the bears are in West Texas, though I have seen Mountain Lion just north of San Antonio on the Camp Bullis Army Base (not fun when you are 2-4mi. from the nearest road and armed with only a 2-way radio and a clip board).


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

HorizontalMike.

Just south of where I was raised, Owyhee Co, ID, makes West Texas look like a metropolis) 1.4 per sq mile.

I didn't have time to follow your links, but I will alter. I remember fluorescent lights causing dental decay 30 yrs ago. There is a lot of light pollution. Aliens in the next Galaxy probably think we are a small star orbiting the sun )

I have friends in MT who say the millionaires from CA screwed up the country driving up real estte prices. Live there 2 years and leave when they find out the forest roads are not plowed and they are snowed in for 6 months on their mountain top villas ) Too many definitely bring their problems with them when they escape!! WE saw the same thing when the "squatters" took over all the irrigated farm land around the Treasure Valley in Idaho. Worst case of "urban sprawl" in the world; gillions of 5 and 10 acre dust bowls instead of corn 25 feet tall and 180 bushel to the acre wheat fields.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Topa,
Yeah well Blanco County, where I live, is just North of San Antonio and just West of Austin so we are kind of crowded around here at at 4.5/sq.mi. 

However, the population density thins out quickly to the West of me another 50mi. or so. When I head that way on the Harley I have to keep track of local gas stations between beer stops, if you know what I mean. ;-)

And yep, the Californians have bought up all of the businesses in Johnson City (LBJ's home, 23mi. North of me) and put in countless wineries between there and Fredericksburg to the West. FWIW, I used to be a ranger at the LBJ National Park as well. Wouldn't do it now as the area has changed and not for the better. Not sure I will get the chance to move further West, as age and opportunities have slowed this old man up. When it comes to health care, it's not too bad to be driving distance from major facilities.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Hard for me to move very far west too!! ) I do have a cousin in Neah Bay. That's the end of the world for the lower 48.


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