# Glue Line Appeared After Dying



## jonsprague0000 (Jan 18, 2014)

I glued up a mahogany tabletop with very minor glue lines. After I dyed the tabletop the glue lines became very apparent and raised up above the wood. The glue line now has a raised ridge when it was flat before the glue up. It is even worse because the brown dye made the glue line black.

After I sanded it originally the table top was smooth. I let it sit for a few weeks in the house and noticed that the glue line raised up. I then sanded flat again and this is when I dyed it.

Does anyone know what could have caused this and if there is anything I can do to make the lines less noticeable? Could this have to do with humidity or just a bad glue up? I really don't want to have to start over.


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## exelectrician (Oct 3, 2011)

It is only bad if you think it is.
I think the glue lines add character to your project, just my 2 cents,,,,


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## JonHitThingWithRock (Sep 7, 2013)

what type of glue and what type of dye, if it's like a titebond 1 and water-based dye, that could be problematic….. i think


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## Fettler (Dec 6, 2012)

I think JonHitThingsWithRock might have hit the nail on the head with titebond 1. Did you use plenty of clamping pressure?


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

PVA glues have a property called "glue creep", though it typically takes a little while for this to show up. Glue creep is a raised line at the seam as you described. I've quit using PVA on table tops due to this, the plastic resin (urea formaldehyde) glues do not creep so I use them on tops. The good news is it isn't a bad glue up, the bad news is you will have this and either have to accept it, or saw through the glue seam and re-glue with another type of adhesive. Search the phrase "glue creep" for more opinions.


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## ClintSearl (Dec 8, 2011)

You used way too much glue. Plus it sounds like the joint was gappy.


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## Knothead62 (Apr 17, 2010)

I use Titebond III and have no problems with glue lines. Is there a big difference between TB I and III?


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## bonesbr549 (Jan 1, 2010)

I have not used TBI in a long time. I have used a ton of the II & III and I like the Extend when it's a complicated glue-up and need the long open time. I use PPR for veneering because glue creep will destroy good veneer. However it's drawback is, it's nasty and dangerous without proper protection while mixing the powder. Absolutely love it and it is hard as a rock and will never move. I also depend on it for laminating.

You may also want to decode the lot numbers on your bottle and see how old it is. Not saying causal effect, but would look at it.

Are you joints good and square. Your edge could be a tad out of 90 and creates a tiny gap that the glue is filling but leads to your issue. Keep your glue to a minimum and while clamp pressure needs to be enough to strongly pull it together, you don't need to kill it to get a good bond.

Here is a link that pertains to veneering but it discusses all kinds of glue.

http://www.joewoodworker.com/veneering/glues.htm


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## jonsprague0000 (Jan 18, 2014)

I used Titebond III. I've heard PVA creeps but have never experienced this before. I made a matching table top and it glued up perfect.

I did use a bunch of glue, but clamped it very hard and just squeezed out the excess. Will this approach cause any problems? My guess is that I was a tad out of 90 and there was a tiny gap even though I couldn't see any light coming through when I did a dry fit. Is there any trick to figuring out if theres a gap?

I also ran it through a drum sander so I wonder if the outside fit fine during the glueup and there was a gap a few mm deep. Then when I ran it through the sander it sanded down to the bad fitting area.


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## Phil53 (Jun 25, 2008)

I have talked before with one of the representatives from Titebond and was told that the Titebond II was a lot better at not showing glue lines. And in the long run you will not have that much deference in the strength. Even though the III is better, it is not that must better. I have used the Titebond II on a cutting board for my brother a few years ago and it looks good and is holding up fine.


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## bonesbr549 (Jan 1, 2010)

As to a trick to see if you are out of square, I use a small pocket precision square about 2" long. I use to check every board up against a light to make sure I did not get out a hair. Now I used a diff trick. Not my original idea but it does work.

It works in pairs and even if your fence on the jointer is off it will not matter.

Lay your boards flat on your work table as they will appear glued up. I use chalk and mark a T for top face and I mark them in series so they go back together as I joint them. So say you have 4 boards. Take board 1 & 2 from left to right. Fold them so the up faces are facing one another like a sandwich and the bottom faces are to the outside of the pair.

Take those two boards to the jointer and run them across together. Think like you would bookmarking panels from resawing a board.

When you lay down those 2 panels back flat on your work table the edges will be bookmarked edges so they will mate perfectly. So even if your are say out a half degrees of square, board 1 will be 89.5 and board 2 will be 90.5. They will mate perfectly.

If you want to see it set your fence off by 5 degrees take two scrap boards and try it. Obviously you want 90, but it will cancel any error. Now repeat the process for boards 3 & 4(rt edge of 3 and left edge of 4).

The final step will be to take board 2 & 3 (rt edge of 2 and lft edge of 3) and do the same process.

Keep the edges in the right order or you will get it screwed up.

I simply put a "L" & "R" on the boards and take them in pairs from my work table to the jointer and back. It's never failed me. Try it once, I think you will like it. I don't much worry about edge gluing anymore. I every now and then check with a precision square just to make sure. It will speed your project time greatly. Take care.


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## Bonka (Apr 13, 2012)

I use hide glue and have had no problems with creep or glue lines not taking dye.


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## Finn (May 26, 2010)

As Gerald said, hide glue accepts stain and finish much better than other glues. I use Titebond Liquid Hide Glue for glue ups where I cannot access the joint for wipe up of squeeze out.


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## JAAune (Jan 22, 2012)

I'd guess gaps in the glue joints, old glue or excessive low temperatures below 50 degrees during the cure. All of those could lead to joint failure.


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## Fettler (Dec 6, 2012)

Last summer I did a glue up on a 8'x 26" x 6/4" cherry table and used Titebone I with no issues. I used my bench as a reference surface to ensure each edge was perfectly flat. Then i made 1 plane pass with a contoured blade profile to put a slight hollow in the middle of each edge. After that, I used a metric ass ton of clamping pressure and just left it for like 2 days (mostly because i'm lazy). Tons of glue squeeze but i was flattening with a #7 anyway so i didn't care. The lesson i learned on that table is that cherry needs to be pre-treated before staining or it will streak like crazy.


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## ferstler (Oct 5, 2008)

I have used both types of Elmer's carpenter glue (the standard stuff and the stainable stuff) and have had no problems with glue creep. Often, I use different kinds of woods on flat-surface projects, so a visible line is no big deal at all.

On the other hand, I have used PL 3X Premium Construction adhesive on a few projects (a polyurethane glue), and, yep, I have experienced glue creep. I did a coffee table a few years ago for my sister in law and it sanded out smooth two days after the gluing and clamping work. I stained and clear coated it and the result was fine.

A few months later we dropped by and I ran my hand over the table top and I could feel those glue lines. They were tiny ridges. The glue continued to expand as it cured over time. The only way to deal with the anomaly would be to re-sand and re-finish the top.

Too much trouble, in this case. My sister in law had no problems with the artifact and it maybe added some "character" to the look.

I will say this. While the PL stuff was pretty strong (and has the advantage of doing well when gluing irregular surfaces), it simply is not as strong as the Elmer's standard carpenter glue. I don't think that anything else is, either.

Howard Ferstler


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## Picken5 (Jan 12, 2011)

Jon - you may be experiencing what the folks at Titebond refer to as "sunken joints". Per their website (http://www.titebond.com/application_tips.aspx) water from the glue causes the wood adjacent to the joint to swell a bit. Even though you'll sand it smooth, the water will eventually evaporate and the wood will shrink - but the glue won't. Hence, you're left with a raised glue line.

"Water-based wood glues such as Titebond Original or Titebond II build strength in a joint as they lose moisture
into the surrounding wood. This moisture causes the wood on both sides of the bondline to swell slightly. If the
project is planed or sanded before this swelling disappears, the high moisture wood near the joint will continue to
dry and will shrink slightly compared to the rest of the wood. Allow your project to dry for several days before 
sanding or planing."

In my experience, it can take weeks to dry enough to prevent this. Clint may be right-too much glue.


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## generic (Jan 9, 2014)

I have noticed this on the two cutting boards that I made. I was suspicious that it was something like this but couldn't find anything to back it up. Now I know. Thanks for sharing! I will make sure I let them dry out longer now.


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## Dal300 (Aug 4, 2011)

I learned awhile back that while gluing guitar headstock or anything else on a musical instrument that PVA glues like Titebond or Gorilla Wood Glue, flex a lot when they dry. They also swell quite a bit and in very fine wood working, that just isn't acceptable. 
The glue line doesn't swell much, but enough to see and reflect in the light. Maybe a 1/128", but is all that is needed to show a glaring glue line.
I had to replace the neck on a Gibson Les Paul because I couldn't hide the glue line on the headstock joint.

Now I use Hot hide glue or Fish glue.


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## clazman (Feb 28, 2010)

To repair the problem you could rip down each joint and then glue. It would obviously make the glue-up correspondingly narrower. The matching will be automatic as was described here utilizing another method. Then glue using the suggestions here. If the reduced width of the panel is objectionable then maybe you could add an edging say of wood with a contrasting color. With the mahogany here birch or maple could be used.

Another repair idea, if the joints are symmetrical, would be to rout a shallow dado, say 1/8", along the glue line and centered on the joint and utilize a wood of a different color and the glue this as was suggested by the other commenters.

Even though I strive for perfect joints they invariably occur. My thoughts here may not appeal to anyone but they have served me well


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## jonsprague0000 (Jan 18, 2014)

Thanks for the feedback. There are some great processes here that I'm going to use in my next glue up and I might try a few different types of glue. I think a lot of the problem is that I used too much glue and the rips weren't perfect enough. As I'm starting to add the oil finish the lines aren't as apparent so I think I'm going to leave it for now.


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