# What does your CNC Router wish list look like?



## DS

I am approaching my list from the point of convincing my boss he needs to upgrade our current basic CNC machine to something a bit more productive.

Feel free to comment on my list, or post your own list, however you want - hobby machine or pro, doesn't matter.

My list would be best suited for a small to mid-sized cabinetry shop with an eye towards features that would maximize productivity and profitability.

In no particular order;


Servo motors - not steppers.
Steppers are okay for non-production environments. Laguna uses steppers on larger machines cutting 4×8 sheets, but they are woefully inadequate and often stall in the middle of a job. Even the most basic servo will outperform the best stepper motor in this situation.


Hardware controller - not software controller.
The controller has to be able to be real-time. Software controllers like Mach 3 running in windows just have too many things going on to be reliable. Fanuc is one of the most popular and by many accounts the best controller on the market. Downside is cost. It is fairly expensive.


Aluminum Table - not phenolic. Phenolic (Plastic) makes do for the most part and is a mainstay in most budget minded machines. However, it tends to buckle and twist easier under stress and has a tendency to be out of spec. I am currently dealing with a table that has a stress "pucker" in one corner of the phenolic. It pops low under vacuum and pops high without. As a result, fly cutting the spoil board does NOT produce a flat surface for cutting parts. The variance is about 1/16" of an inch. (+/- 1/32" and very annoying) 
An aluminum table is less susceptible to this effect and tends to stay put. (Any deviation due to stresses will be nullified when fly cutting the spoil board)


5×12 table instead of 4×8. For 99% of what we cut a 4×8 table is just fine. But, if you have limited space, hauling a 4×10 or 5×5 sheet (or even a 5×12 - yes that is a common size plywood) to the table saw is a massive PIA. Also, it allows you to fixture the back portion of the table for P2P operations without having to reconfigure the table every time.


Multi-zone vacuum table. Being able to open and close vacuum zones on your table allows you to work in different areas of the table without excessive leakage that might compromise the holding ability.


Moving Gantry instead of moving Table. This used to be a point of contention among the "experts". Old school thinking says a moving gantry is not stable enough. The thing is, the footprint of the moving table is DOUBLE that of the moving gantry. For a small shop, that is precious space that can be used for something else. Plus, the technology has matured enough that, for woodworking, a moving gantry machine is more than adequate.


ATC Automatic Tool Changer on the carousel. Some machines stow the tools at one end of the table. This slows the cycle times of the machine fairly significantly since the gantry has to move to the far end of the table every time. Having ANY tool changer is better than having NO tool changer, but a carousel on the gantry makes the tool change process quicker.


Tool management on the console. I went a long time without this feature, but once I worked a machine that had it, (Biesse Rover), I wish they all had it. Being able to reference tools by name rather than by number gives last minute flexibility at the machine to adapt to broken bits and to quickly use an expanded bit library beyond the carousel capacity. This feature is awesome for VERY custom, but seldom used, operations. 
The machine keeps track of all the tools in your crib and also tracks which tools are currently in the carousel. Just tell the machine you are putting a certain tool in a certain slot number and it translates that to the g-code flawlessly.


Line boring aggregate head. Sure, you can mount a drill bit in a tool holder and drill them one at a time. If you are drilling 5 at a time, it is 5 times faster, (duh). Not only does it free up a slot in your carousel, but, for the cost of the head, it pays for itself pretty quickly.

And there is my list. 
Congrats for reading this far.

All comments and suggestions are welcome.


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## JoeLyddon

When I think of the COST of a good Hobby CNC system would be (more than my current total Shop!), I don't even think about Dreaming about it… let alone developing a Wish List!

... and then comes the Laser systems! Another Fantastic WORLD out of my reach…  LOL


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## ArtMann

You seem to have it all figured out so anything I would have to say would not be useful.


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## Desert_Woodworker

Art don't give up!


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## jimintx

My wish list is … well, blank. 
I don't know a thing about them, and I don't expect to ever want one.

Your post sure makes it seem like you should be answering this for others, not asking it - lots of good research provided right there in your opening post.

,


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## BurlyBob

I agree with Jim! I'm sort of old school. I'll stick with hand and power tools.


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## Underdog

Table:
Grid table, instead of waffle table, for custom fixtures.

Tool Carousel:
20 tool, rather than 10 tool, carousel.

Drill block:
Again, more spindles are better. We have 9, I'd like double that. 18-20 spindles.


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## DS

> My wish list is … well, blank.
> I don t know a thing about them, and I don t expect to ever want one.
> 
> Your post sure makes it seem like you should be answering this for others, not asking it - lots of good research provided right there in your opening post.
> 
> ,
> 
> - jimintx


Jimintx:
I answered this question for me. I expressed my opinions about different features on 
CNC routers.

Others have their opinions and I asked to hear them.

Hopefully this will become a discussion of what people are looking for in CNC Routers, and/or what value certain new features may, or may not, have for them.


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## DS

> Table:
> Grid table, instead of waffle table, for custom fixtures.
> 
> Tool Carousel:
> 20 tool, rather than 10 tool, carousel.
> 
> Drill block:
> Again, more spindles are better. We have 9, I d like double that. 18-20 spindles.
> 
> - Underdog


I get 9 spindles. That gives you 5 Horizontal and 5 Vertical ('L' configuration'). In our custom cabinets we only put 5 holes per adjustable shelf. Perhaps you drill the entire end panel with holes? Why else would you want so many drills? Help me understand - thanks.

Do they make a 20 tool carousel? I think 4 bits do 99% of all our routing. (8 tool capacity machine) The other tools rotate into the open slots.


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## DS

Got my eye on this one;










Requested info from the mfg. Will keep y'all posted.


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## Desert_Woodworker

DS - that is sure a beauty. How much $$$


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## DS

I've requested a quote with my desired configuration.
(see previous wish list) 
I am guessing in the $138k range plus or minus. Times may have changed the economics of things, though.

We'll know soon enough.

Komo is a solid machine made in New Jersey in the good ol' US of A.
They come from the metalworking and plastics industries and deigned to make a few woodworking machines.

I was at the St. Cloud factory about 18 years ago and they had a big "industrial grade" machine that was as big as a football field and several stories tall. The operator rode on the Z-axis plate in an air conditioned cab hanging on the vertically inclined gantry. They said it was for precision machining of large ocean vessel panels.


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## oldnovice

OK, but can it make breakfast?
Seriously, can it cut but parts of dovetails?


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## DS

Well, yes, it CAN cut dovetails…sort of… if you count something like this as dovetails.

Nested Dovetails;










It has a loader/unloader option AND it has a label printer aggregate head option that puts the part labels on the blank sheet first, then cuts them out.

As for making breakfast, I haven't seen a bacon and eggs aggregate head… yet.


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## DS

Nested "dovetails" are a little different, but the tails and pins are cut from the face, so a sheet of nested parts can be made into drawer boxes. The picture above shows some detail as to how they are made.

It doesn't quite do it for me, but, I suppose it has its place somewhere between rabbited particle board drawer boxes and actual dovetail drawers.


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## DS

For those who might think this is an expensive machine, think of it this way;

You are paying about the same each month as you might pay to have a $12.75/hr shop lackey around and it is far more productive, optimizes materials about 20% better than your best guy and you only have to pay for the first five years. After that, it works practically for free.

BTW, that 20% material savings goes straight to the bottom line. How much did you pay for sheet goods last year? Now subtract 20% of that! If you spent $100k on sheet goods, 20% is $20k per year. At five years you've saved $100k already, practically paying for the machine with that alone.

When optimized on the nested CNC Router, for me, my waste factor on for non-grained melamine hovers around 4%. For wood-grained melamine it is around 10%. Most saw-cut sheet goods, in my experience, waste in the range of 20% to 30%. Of course, depending on many, many different factors, YMMV.


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## DS

Just got off the phone with the sales rep. This machine is in the neighborhood of $155k installed - training included.

Now, to figure out how to show it is worth it. :-D


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## Desert_Woodworker

"Now, to figure out how to show it is worth it. :-D" If you are talking about explaining it to the wife, good luck


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## oldnovice

> Just got off the phone with the sales rep. This machine is in the neighborhood of $155k installed - training included.
> 
> Now, to figure out how to show it is worth it. :-D
> 
> - DS


You need to run an *ROI*!
When I was working I had to do a return on investment on any capitol equipment. 
Some were easy, some were difficult and some proved no return within the allotted time frame.

*Good Luck*


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## CherryWood

DS,

I am a senior level manufacturing engineer with 4 decades of experience. I have professionally bought and installed and trained more operators, programmers and engineers than I care to shake a stick at.

Your list is very good. I don't think you are talking about a custom built machine.

Asking a predominantly hobby forum the question that you asked does not make a lot of sense. There is little experience in this arena to critique the question.

Contact companies that sell the machines. C.R. Onsrud is ONE such company. The machine you suggest will be in the 75,000 to 100,000 range. I had a $350,000 C.R. Onsrud machine in the past. They are OK machines. I have bought plenty of various machines from 5,000 to 750,000.

The REAL issue is convincing your boss that it is a cost effective decision to invest HIS money into an industrial quality machine. Sure Fanuc is popular. Sure Servos are nice to have. Will those things make money for him?

I could likely buy a Chinese machine 5×12 with Mach3 at less than $10,000 and run circles around you with piling money in the bank at 1-10th the cost. So - WHY is the $75,000 machine you suggest a better option than my Chinese machine. THAT is what you need to explain to your boss.

Also - machines like Cammaster, Techno, ShopBOT, are being used VERY VERY successfully in business throughout the world.

My point is - the industrial machine DOES - have it's place. Is your bosses place that NEEDS the industrial machine?

Can you justify to your boss the business financial aspect of his needs, and then prepare a presentation to explain where he is going to turn a profit?

As a business person, I am sure that is what he needs to know.


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## Desert_Woodworker

CherryWood- that was quite a response, very professional.


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## DS

CherryWood

Thank you for lending your comments and expertise in this area. I agree with what you've said.

They did carve out this little corner of LJ's for CNC Woodworking topics and I am hoping to expand the view of what all that entails, hobby or otherwise, in order to promote CNC Woodworking in general.

I have set up, programmed for and operated several CR Onsrud machines - both old and new, both with and without aggregate heads. 
They are priced well in their market space with quite a few items from my list, (like, 75% to 80%). Likely, they would be very adequate as a replacement for our aging, out-of-spec, mostly-decrepit and customer-service-orphaned Laguna 4×8 machine.

However, if I could have my WISH LIST - the "wet dream" CNC machine for this application, then the Mach One GT is pretty danged close. (I am told they are developing a "light" version, whatever that is, targeting $120k price point, for next year, but you didn't hear that from me.)

Truth be told, the productivity difference between the Onsrud and the Komo is negligable for the relatively large money difference. There is, however a fairly significant manufacturing quality difference in the machines themselves, i.e. tolerances, Finite Element Analysis, etc between the two.

The productivity difference between the Laguna we have and either the Onsrud or Komo is more than double (about 2.5x) more productive. So, I think that part is not a tough sell.

The trick is the extra $50k for the Cadillac versus the Chevy sedan. (Does that analogy still work today?)
That will be a little harder to sell.

Jim Collins once wrote that "Good is the enemy of Great". The Onsrud is a Good machine - Enuf' said.
Do you think that will sell it? I don't know for certain.


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## Desert_Woodworker

DS-"The trick is the extra $50k for the Cadillac versus the Chevy sedan. (Does that analogy still work today?)" 
Yes. Also, DS and CW your added insight brings insight for me, a 24-36 Laguna CNC owner. This will be my last machine, but there are others who may some day purchase a bigger machine. Why this thread is relevant, 3,451 views and growing. Thanks for letting me dream and learn.


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## CherryWood

From a business owners perspective, the difference would be in output and what the value of that output would be.

The Laguna does the job - yes? Then the industrial machine would do the job faster??? Can that be quantified? Do you mean the cutting speeds will be 500IPM vs 250IPM? OK - so it can cut faster, but that does not necessarily translate to processing the job twice as fast. There is still setup, programming and tooling whereas the time remains the same.

Additionally, will the faster machine mean that a larger number of jobs can be processed? I will assume a cabinet shop, as I don't know what you produce. Then I can assume I can make 1.7 times MORE cabinets and the customer base is there to buy those cabinets!! THEN - I have some cost justification. Does the added business outweigh the cost of the machine. What is the ROI? What is the payback time?

If I say that the new machine is faster - but it does not generate more sales then there is no gain. I just get the job done faster. That does not earn more money, or save money. I have been told that the savings does not occur until a head has been eliminated. Sorry for that sounding bad, but that is how businesses think a lot of the time.

Also, the durability and longevity of the industrial machine is important. We don't want a substandard machine to breakdown mid job. AND, Support to fix a broken machine needs to be quick and local - to protect the business.

Again, I would argue that Cammaster could be a good choice at maybe $40k or 60K. Trust me - I am NOT advocating Camaster, or any other brand for that matter. I am NOT a brand loyal person.


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## Underdog

> Table:
> Grid table, instead of waffle table, for custom fixtures.
> 
> Tool Carousel:
> 20 tool, rather than 10 tool, carousel.
> 
> Drill block:
> Again, more spindles are better. We have 9, I d like double that. 18-20 spindles.
> 
> - Underdog
> 
> I get 9 spindles. That gives you 5 Horizontal and 5 Vertical ( L configuration ). In our custom cabinets we only put 5 holes per adjustable shelf. Perhaps you drill the entire end panel with holes? Why else would you want so many drills? Help me understand - thanks.
> 
> Do they make a 20 tool carousel? I think 4 bits do 99% of all our routing. (8 tool capacity machine) The other tools rotate into the open slots.
> 
> - DS


If the drill block was configured with 5 in x and 5 in y, then I might be happy with it. 
However…
It's configured with 7 in the X and 3 in the Y (number seven X doubles as number three in the Y).
So the number one slot in X is a door tool (8mm) and the number one in the Y is door tool (35mm). That leaves six in the X and only 2 in the Y. Takes a lot longer to do full lineboring holes in the Y. Hence the desire for more drills in the Y. 
So, I'd rather have a couple of slots for a Rafix drill and a couple of slots for door drilling, as well as more slots for full linebores in both axes.
Not every cabinet is the same. Some cabinets I only bore "as required (5-6 holes per shelf)" some are bored "per opening" and some are bored with "full lineboring" top to bottom.


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## DS

> The Laguna does the job - yes? Then the industrial machine would do the job faster??? Can that be quantified? Do you mean the cutting speeds will be 500IPM vs 250IPM? OK - so it can cut faster, but that does not necessarily translate to processing the job twice as fast. There is still setup, programming and tooling whereas the time remains the same.
> 
> ...
> 
> Also, the durability and longevity of the industrial machine is important. We don t want a substandard machine to breakdown mid job. AND, Support to fix a broken machine needs to be quick and local - to protect the business.
> 
> - CherryWood


You bring up two very important points;
First, is cutting speed. The Laguna IS cutting around 250ipm, The Onsrud cuts around 750ipm max in most installations I've seen, even though rapid traverse is around 1200 ipm. The Komo Mach One GT is cutting at 1500ipm and rapid at 2300ipm. (I've linked to some video in a previous post.) I've personally run a Komo at 1100ipm, which was supersonic at the time.

The machine would NOT increase sales in and of itself, though it could introduce expanded capabilities that can be sold. The primary point is to decrease costs. We are a high end custom wood shop producing cabinetry and furniture. (Think 1% clientele) The average work experience of our employees is around 25 years and no one has less than 10 years experience.
Saving +/- 12 hours per typical job, just for the milling operation, is significant as it frees up a high-wage skilled craftsman for other tasks.

Second is reliability. The Laguna started falling apart under full-time operation at around three years. The Onsrud's have a good track record that I've anecdotally observed out to about 8 to 10 years. The Komo machines are built, I mean BUILT, for 20 years typical service life. I've NEVER observed a FANUC controller failure, while I've seen at least two different controllers fail on the Onsruds, (Mostly the earlier versions) and the Laguna Mach 3 controller seems to like to pick daisies about once a week requiring a complete reset. And yes, the Laguna controller was already completely replaced once without appreciable effect.

The new Mach One GT has an on board diagnostics feature that allows the Komo tech to log into the machine and remote diagnose most issues. I've not seen this in action, but, that is a big deal as for time savings when a machine is down. Going back and forth on the phone trying to troubleshoot this or that is a majority of the time loss.


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## DS

> If the drill block was configured with 5 in x and 5 in y, then I might be happy with it.
> However…
> It s configured with 7 in the X and 3 in the Y (number seven X doubles as number three in the Y).
> So the number one slot in X is a door tool (8mm) and the number one in the Y is door tool (35mm). That leaves six in the X and only 2 in the Y. Takes a lot longer to do full lineboring holes in the Y. Hence the desire for more drills in the Y.
> So, I d rather have a couple of slots for a Rafix drill and a couple of slots for door drilling, as well as more slots for full linebores in both axes.
> Not every cabinet is the same. Some cabinets I only bore "as required (5-6 holes per shelf)" some are bored "per opening" and some are bored with "full lineboring" top to bottom.
> 
> - Underdog


I get it now. It makes sense why you want the other drills.
Have you ever thought about putting the rafix and door boring onto the carousel rather than the aggregate head?

For us, those operations are rarely done on the CNC, even when they could. Our Blum door hinge press has trouble aligning the hinge onto pre-drilled holes for some reason, so we drill and press in one process after milling.

Also, our designer thinks that rafix is "of the devil" and won't even allow them in the building. So, that is that, so to speak. (Not literally "of the devil", but he doesn't like them… At all… under any circumstance.)

BTW, I notice the three boring options you listed are straight from the Cabinetvision playbook.


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## CherryWood

Freeing up time for highly skilled workers as a cost savings and justification to purchase, is a really hard to sell item. I have seen that fail on more than one occasion. Question? Does that highly skilled worker become idle while the Laguna is running, or is the worker doing some other task internal to the machine running time? Why use highly skilled worker when a lower skilled worker can operate the machine.

This is just some of the things I have run into with machine purchase justifications.

Things that DO help the argument. Machine Down Time. How much lost production time was lost in the past year due to machine down time? Did any downtime hold up customer job shipments? Did any customers go elsewhere because of delivery time? What was the repair cost in the last year? What is the throughput time on the Laguna vs the throughput time on the new machine? Is there a backlog on the CNC work. Can the backlog be reduced? Replacing the machine will protect the business. That sort of stuff can help along with the "oh by the way" - we can also free up skilled labor.

For the record - I HAVE seen Fanuc fail, as well as Mitsubishi, and others. It does happen. Not as often as Mach3, but it does happen. I have had failures with OSAI controls on C.R. Onsrud. I have seen servos fail, I have seen heavy duty cast iron base, machines fail on major structural features. The Komo machine you are looking at is a welded steel base, light duty for some of the machines I work with. Point is, they all fail at some point. None are perfect.


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## DS

The Laguna down time has been a particularly big issue lately. The need to replace the machine was finally acknowledged. (The main reason I started looking at a wish list.)

I feel it would be a mistake to replace it with the same level/quality of machine, rather than invest a bit more money into a more productive and reliable setup. My experience tells me that it pays off to have certain "good tools" in the shop.

All the reliability information I previously stated was from my own particular experiences. Clearly "your mileage may vary", as they say. I've had nothing but great experiences with the Fanuc. It's been around forever. For me, the only CON is the cost - they are expensive comparatively speaking. Obviously, anything can and does fail.

I have a product engineering background myself, and there are products that are built to meet certain specs and products built to exceed the same specs - both competing in the same market. The ones built to exceed specs are inherently more reliable, despite inevitable failures at times.


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## CherryWood

Not saying I have a bad view of Fanuc. I use Fanuc all day every day. I'm simply saying I have seen Fanuc break down.

The Komo looks like a nice sturdy machine. Not all cabinet shops can afford $120k for a machine and something in the $20's to $40's will fit the bill. If your company is in a position to afford a $120k machine then by all means do so. I don't work in a cabinet shop, I am actually in a very high level of precision machining in metal and have been for a very long time. Ready to retire very soon.

Based on your last post it looks like the decision is already made to be replacing the machine. From your first post it sounded like you were trying to find a rationale to convince your boss that the machine needed to be replaced. I was just trying to give some advice on what the finance people need to hear. As far as what the machine should be - you already have a clear understanding as to what the needs are.

YES - I totally agree with quality in the place where it is needed. I recently purchased a very expensive precision grinding machine with a great worldwide industry reputation. Another machine would "do" the job, but not as well.


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## ssnvet

*Servo motors - not steppers.*

Not only are servos usually more powerful, they are true feedback control systems, with an encoder measuring actual motor shaft or head position. This is necessary for super precision work as stepper motors can momentarily stall and "skip steps", such that a step signal …or short stream of step signals… won't actually move the mechanism. Most all stepper systems do not have feedback of actual machine position
*
Hardware controller - not software controller.*

We are using a PC based driver on our current CNC at work, but is set up with WinCNC and a pair of daughter cards that essentially transform the PC into a controller. Windows no longer controls IRQs and such, so it can't disrupt your files…. yet we can still use the PC at the workstation for other important junk…. like checking social media :^o.
*
Aluminum Table.*

Our old one was PVC and our newer one is aluminum….. I haven't noticed a difference, as precise Z-axis control has been a challenge on both. Fortunately, 95% of what we do is though cutting

*5×12 table instead of 4×8. *

Both our old machine and the one we use now are 5'x10'. I consider this a must. We are currently running a $250K/year job on the router cutting different size circles out of thinner MDF. Our sheet utilization for this job stinks with 4×8 stock, and we would not have won the bid if we couldn't run 10' sheets. .

*Multi-zone vacuum table.*

With a 10' table, this is a must

*Moving Gantry instead of moving Table.*

the machines footprint is ~40% smaller with moving gantry, what's not to like about that?

*ATC Automatic Tool Changer on the carousel.*

if you do a lot of tool changes mid program, you want a merry-go-round tool changer on the gantry. We usually do not, so the tool changer at the back of the table meets our needs

*Tool management on the console.*

If your operator has the aptitude for higher level functions and can touch off the tools and enter cutter comps for resharpened bits, etc… then this is great to have. If not, the engineering crew is going to have to do it the pay back isn't as great

*Line boring aggregate head. *

I'm not in the millwork business, but I thought that these type of CNCs were referred to as "Point-to-point" machines and were pretty specialized. I personally have never see a gantry router set up with this type of head.

*Now for the things you are missing*

1. An Italian, German or Japanese made 20,000 rpm, 15 HP spindle.
2. Vacuum system set up with a 15 HP blower.
3. Linear bearings/rails under the table so you have acess to three sides of the machine when the gantry is parked.
3. EFFECTIVE DUST COLLECTION SET UP! (this is all I want for Christmas)
4. Pendant control is very handy.

*Other considerations*

Rigidity… (steel frame vs. aluminum frame) 
Both of our machines have been Aluminum framed machines and both have served well for our needs. For super precision work, or for work with higher cutting forces than 3/4 plywood gives, a steel frame may be needed. But all that mass requires every component (linear bearings, servo-motors, servo-drivers, etc….) to be upgraded.

*Gantry orientation*
Our current machine is a CNT Moition Systems 900 series AL frame with the gantry going the 10' direction. This is not a typical layout, but it makes loading sheets easier. But note, our machine has raised rails blocking the ends.


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## DS

> Based on your last post it looks like the decision is already made to be replacing the machine. From your first post it sounded like you were trying to find a rationale to convince your boss that the machine needed to be replaced. I was just trying to give some advice on what the finance people need to hear. As far as what the machine should be - you already have a clear understanding as to what the needs are.
> 
> - CherryWood


Yes, after re-reading my initial post, I can see how you read it. Actually, my boss would rather not spend any more than he has to. It's kind of like buying cheap shoes that you have to replace every six months instead of buying shoes at twice as much money that will last for two years. In the short run you spend less, but in the long run you end up spending more.

Unfortunately, my boss will buy the cheap shoes every time. My real task is to convince him that he is better off in the long run spending a bit more now.

Also, I appreciate all the advice you've given. The ROI documentation is all still in my future, I expect.

He has vowed to keep this current machine running, whatever the cost, until his current payments are completed.
The rest of us just shake our heads and deal with it for now.


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## ssnvet

We are seriously looking at a Multi-CAM DT5000 series machine set up with a tangentially controlled reciprocating knife on a retractable mount on the head next to the spindle for foam fabrication.

If you haven't looked at a Multi-CAM machine yet, I encourage you to. The DT5000 is a steel framed, servo motor driven beast and the package were looking at is coming in at ~$110K


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## ssnvet

Another thing to consider is total Z-axis lift.

We want to route 3" foam sheets with a 3" router bit or 3.25" reciprocating knife… so we'll need at least 7" of Z-axis motion. Our current machine has ~5.5" and won't work for us.

The more Z-axis travel, the merrier :^)


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## ssnvet

I edited my long post…..


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## ssnvet

*"If you need a machine and don't buy it, you ultimately find that you have paid for it, but don't have it." *
Henry Ford

The key is, IMHO, to really know your business, and to tailor the machine specs to your needs…. with a little room to grow.


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## ssnvet

Yesterday I was at one of our aerospace customer's brandy new 300,000 s.f. plant (already to small) and they are installing a 5 axis mill with a work envelope of 10' x 10' x 6' (that's FEET). The thing is massive…. and they are soon to install 2 more just like it.

They are milling very large carbon fiber components for aircraft engines.


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## ssnvet

A couple add'l points…

Be careful with your arguments, as double the cutting speed does not translate to 1/2 the time. For complicated geometries with shorter cut lines, you'll find that the machine does not have time to accelerate to full speed, before it's putting on the brakes and making a turn for the next cut. Our machine "can" run up to 900 ipm, but we never see it, as the machine doesn't accelerate fast enough, and our geometries don't have 4' straight lines..

We are not operating at the same pace and level of complexity as you cabinet shop guys are, but we've found that dust collection has a lot to do with our net cutting speed. Pulling parts and scrap and clearing the decks for action on the next sheet almost always takes us more time than running the stinkin programs.

I didn't read the entire thread before my first post…. but now I can see that you are already looking at "real" CNCs (i.e. Komo and Fanuc). I still recommend you check out Multi-CAM. They have a huge plant in Texas and concentrate on just CNC routers. I always got the impression that Fanuc's specialty was CNC milling machines.

Does your shop run Cabinet Vission?


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## DS

Matt, yes, we run Cabinetvision.

There are lots of good points in your post, but, I will not get to comment on them today.
Getting ready for the long weekend, i.e. not enough time.

I appreciate your input and will look into Multi-CAM, as I am open to any and all ideas.

Thanks


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## DS

Matt:


Controller: The daughter card, in your case, IS the controller. The PC is just the interface. The controller translates G-Code commands into individual motor commands. It determines the proper way to move the motors to make the desired geometry, (circle, diagonal line, etc). As you might suspect, timing is everything for the controller. Using a software controller that has to compete in real time with other Windows processes makes for a less than reliable set up.
The new Fanuc controller apparently has a touch PC interface, but all the motor control is done outside of the PC's world.


Cutting Speed: A 5 minute cycle time versus a 20 minute cycle time is a BIG improvement. Obviously, there are ways to maximize a machines output before ditching a slower ipm machine altogether. 
The machine ONLY makes you money when it is cutting, so anything that minimizes the unload/reload time is beneficial. Double-stroking (Using two spoil boards alternately on the same table) allows parts to be sorted and unloaded WHILE the machine is cutting the next sheet.


Aggregate heads: Not just for P2P machines. They are fairly common on nested machines as well. The main difference between a P2P and a nested machine is the table and vacuum set up. Movable Pods and hold-downs for the P2P and spoil boards for the nested machine.


Tool Management: Yes, you used to need a relatively educated operator to adjust tooling at the machine, or work in multiple zones. With a tool management console, that chore is greatly simplified. I am eager to see how the newer set ups do this.


Spindle: Almost anything NOT Chinese is the order of the day.


Vacuum: The Komo standard is either a 25HP or a 40HP screw drive oil separator vacuum. Great reliability and holding power even with high leakage currents. The downside is extra maintenance. Oil changes approx. every 6 months.


Pendant: Almost not necessary if using an auto-touch off utility. Most still come with one in order to jog the head out of trouble, etc. Some have "virtual pendants" on the display screen.


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## Desert_Woodworker

DS Respectfully, you are the "Sham Woo" guy of the CNC 
No disagreement from here-


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## DS

> *"If you need a machine and don't buy it, you ultimately find that you have paid for it, but don't have it." *
> Henry Ford
> 
> The key is, IMHO, to really know your business, and to tailor the machine specs to your needs…. with a little room to grow.
> 
> - Mainiac Matt


Matt, I love this quote from Henry Ford. It is now printed and hanging in my office. (And I have quoted you quoting it here on LJ's in another thread)
Thanks!


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## DS

I think we are getting ready to pull the trigger on a used Biesse Rover B









(not the actual machine)

It has a 49 X 145 nested table a 12 drill head (plus 4 horizontal drills) and a 10 tool carousel on the gantry.
It was $111K as originally invoiced and we are looking at about $48K used.

The machine is 12 years old but is in excellent shape and not at all abused.

The current owner fired it up for us and gave a brief demo of the machine.
It was refreshing to see a 3000 ipm rapid traverse and greater than 1800 ipm cutting.

There are some logistics issues to solve yet, but I am getting excited.


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## RonAylor1760

> I agree with Jim! I m sort of old school. I ll stick with hand and power tools.
> 
> - BurlyBob


I'm *really * old school … I'll stick with my hand tools!


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## DS

Well, we got the machine fully installed and operational last week.
We cut four cabinetry jobs on it this week. It really is a beast










For its age, it is in really pristine condition. 
There are a few quirks from its age, such as Windows XP OS (Still supported industrial version in Italian, no less). 
The tool touch-off procedure is decidedly manual and only as good as the manual measuring device and my eyesight, which is sketchy at best.

Still, for the money, it is an excellent producer for us.

Now, it's time to get to that back-log of orders piling up around here.


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## Underdog

Awesome!
If you have the business then the machine will pay for itself in short order.
In my previous job the KOMO tripled our production capacity- not to mention making a lot of things easier and even possible.


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## DS

So, I thought I would compare the features of the machine we bought to the CNC Router wish list to see how well it stacks up.
So, here goes;


Servo motors - not steppers. CHECK


Hardware controller - not software controller. CHECK


Aluminum Table - not phenolic. The table is not aluminum nor phenolic but is a very rigid, dense composite material. I don't expect any issues from this as it looks to be extremely flat after 12 plus years of use.


5×12 table instead of 4×8. Again, a little bit of a compromise here. The table is 4×12. This still allows us to utilize the most common larger sheets and have room for fixtures. It is a bit of an odd size, except when you consider this model of machine was made with an eye towards machining solid surface counter tops.


Multi-zone vacuum table. CHECK Though it has two zones not four.


Moving Gantry instead of moving Table. CHECK Interestingly, it in an OPEN GANTRY machine, which has its critics, but this machine is over, over built to handle it.


ATC Automatic Tool Changer on the carousel. CHECK (Super fast too)


Tool management on the console. CHECK This, in my opinion has ALWAYS been a Biesse strong suit.


Line boring aggregate head. CHECK in spades. 12 independently fired vertical spindles and four horizontal spindles. The drill head is super fast and efficient. It's a joy to observe.


Controller: CHECK It's not FANUC, but it is a tried and true controller. It seems real solid, even if everything is in Italiano.


Cutting Speed: CHECK - We've been cutting around 850 ipm, though the machine is capable of much higher, we chose to utilize standard bits instead of high speed tooling. Perhaps if we begin to max out the capacity of the machine down the road we will step it up a bit.


Aggregate heads: CHECK The full line of aggregate options are open to this machine.


Spindle: CHECK the 12.2 hp spindle has lots of power


Vacuum: CHECK Two 10 hp vacuums are holding great


Pendant: 50% The pendant only has the feed rate scaling and estop functions. The jogging functions are on the main console. This complicates tooling touch off a bit, requiring the old school method of precision calipers to measure tool heights rather than the quicker touch off methods of most current machines.

Total 15 areas

HITS 12
MISSES 0
SATISFACTORY: 3

If you score the Satisfactory as 50%, then I come up with a overall feature score of *90%*

Cost versus the dream machine
$48,000 installed versus $155,000 installed = *31%*

That looks like a win to me.

Note: Additionally, we spent a little over $2100 for standard ISO30 tooling to get up and running. HSK tooling for the 'Dream Machine' would've been in the range of $3500


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## Underdog

Wish I could come see it in operation. But it's a bit of a drive…


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## Desert_Woodworker

> Wish I could come see it in operation. But it s a bit of a drive…
> 
> - Underdog


 It isn't for me- but I have not been invited  and I promise that I won't wear my Laguna polo shirt


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## DS

The new, temporary dust collector on the CNC is a Laguna. It screams like a banshee, it is so loud. I'd say three times louder than the CNC machine itself.

We bought a new, bigger (quieter) dust collector for the entire shop, but it will take a while for installation and certification.
The city gets nit-picky above a certain size system and they make you jump through a lot of regulatory hoops.

We're up next to the Deer Valley Airpark if you are interested in seeing the machine in action. It isn't cutting all day every day, so we would definitely need to arrange the time.

The new building is twice the size as the current shop and the only thing inside so far is the CNC machine. We're still working on the interior walls, plumbing, electrical, mechanicals, etc. Our current shop is just two streets over, so, we end up going back and forth when cutting jobs for the moment.

Once the coolers get fixed, the place will be a little more habitable, but, that could be a couple weeks away still.


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## oldnovice

*Doug*, I have a couple of questions:

Servo motors, not steppers, how are the positions of the axes determined?
Hardware controller, by this do you mean a PLC, Programmable Logic Controller?

(Is it an ARTECO controller, as ARTECO is PLC and PLC is still based on software, just dedicated to a given task.)


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## DS

Hans,

Servos use three or more stator windings to place the rotor at a determined angle. This angle is held under power at all times. To rotate the angle, the appropriate signals are given to the stator windings. If the motor were to stall at any given point, it will strive to move to the desired angle under power and will likely auto correct its position. Also the number of positions in one rotation is infinite - determined only by the signal being provided from the amplifiers.

A stepper, on the other has a predetermined number of steps per rotation hard-wired into the stator configuration and uses pulses to bump the motor from one step position to the next one. If the motor were to stall, that step is then lost and unaccounted for unless a secondary encoder provides feedback as to the actual position of the stator (resulting in a rotational error) . The number of positions in one rotation is limited to the number of hard-wired steps in one rotation. (Though there are schemes to move partial steps, the number of positions is definitely finite.)

A Hardware controller is dedicated circuitry that does nothing else but control motor movements. This can be a PLC, but often they are dedicated micro-controller chips.
Some, if not most, hobby machines have software controllers (such as Mach 3) which is merely a computer program running on a PC that is also doing dozens of other tasks at the same time which makes reliable and accurate motor movement very difficult, if not nearly impossible. (May be good enough for slow hobby machines, but, inadequate for larger, faster production machines)

Hope that helps to clear up some things


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## oldnovice

*Doug*, I think you misunderstood my question about the servo motors. I unstand servo motors and their position holding capabilities but I wanted to know about the positioning. 
Stepper motor systems typically use incremental encoders, or pulse counters.
Servo positioning systems use absolute encoders and I was wondering whether they were *linear* or *shaft*?


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## jawediqbal

what a good and informative discussion.


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## DS

Hans,
Servos used in CNC machines for axis positioning are typically rotary shafts just like steppers. Most I've seen have encoders attached to one end of the motor to provide precision feedback for positioning.
Servos are typically many times stronger, faster and more reliable than steppers. Also, the driver/amplifier circuitry is more complicated and consumes more energy and must be tuned and calibrated to each motor. These rotary shafts drive either ball screws, or rack and pinion gears for positioning.

While there are also several linear actuators on our machine, those are usually pneumatic.

Linear actuators include the following functions;

Raise/lower the dust shroud
Individually fire 12 vertical drills (1 actuator per) from stowed/working position
Engage the tool carousel between active-change position and stowed positions
Raise/lower the rail pins on the spoil board table

Some machines also have pneumatic linear actuators on the main spindle to move between stowed/tool-change position and active cutting positions, though I am scratching my head trying to think if ours does that, or, if it has enough room on the Z axis ball-screw for that movement. I'll have to pay attention to it next time I'm cutting and I'll let you know.


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## DS

BTW, there *IS* a giant pneumatic linear actuator that moves the main spindle up and down from stowed to working positions.
(I said I would get back and let y'all know.)


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## DS

So, it’s been four years now since we got our Biesse machine up and running.
I’ve been overly impressed by the support Biesse has given us with this machine.

They flew their rep out to our shop from California to Phoenix to come see that the installation was done properly, they have spent numerous hours over these four years helping us troubleshoot aging components.

They have never once billed us for any of this customer service.
This is to support our now almost 17 year old machine with their name on it.
I could not be more impressed.

That service was a major influence when we bought our new Biesse CNC edge bander.

What a difference from my Laguna experience with a 4 year old machine needing parts and they began screening our calls to not have to deal with us. And when we would get through on a different number the parts price had tripled from what we had bought before.

I have used and set up a dozen different brands and types of CNC machines and I would recommend Biesse to anyone trying to seriously produce top quality products.
My 2 cents


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