# Congress is just out of touch



## lwllms (Jun 1, 2009)

I'm a little fed up watching idiots we put in office and pay posture over what to do about money they've already spent. Face it, if any of them were in the least bit serious about cutting spending or reducing debt they wouldn't be fleecing the taxpayers through their expense accounts:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124364352135868189.html


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## murch (Mar 20, 2011)

lwllms - Same everywhere friend. Your debt is trillions where as ours is "only" billions but it still took some 
amount of stupidity and greed by our previous gov. and bankers to get us into such a mess.
I would dearly like to see them all rot in jail but it looks like the entrenched interests look after their own.
The sob's.


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## EEngineer (Jul 4, 2008)

My first clue was during 2008 elections in the US. McCain couldn't recall exactly how many houses he owned. At a time when thousands were facing foreclosure on the only major asset they had - their house - one of the candidates running for president couldn't recall precisely how many he owned.

Yeah, I think they are ought of touch!


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## coloradoclimber (Apr 7, 2007)

um, lwllms, I think you mis-labeled you post, did you mean to say, "The American People are just out of touch"?

Our elected officials didn't get there by themselves. If they are there we must like them, we put them there.

What is the average voter turn out in the United States? Now compare that to how many people voted on American Idol, or how many people update their Facebook account daily, or how many people spend more time researching their fantasy football league than learning about health care or deficit spending.

Sounds like the US political officials are doing just what they were put in place to do, run amok and take care of special interests. Just the way we like it, apparently.


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## dbhost (Jul 20, 2009)

I completely understand the frustration. But don't just blame the house of representatives, there is PLENTY of blame to go around.

Last time a Democrat said he was going to raise taxes only on the wealthiest Americans, I ended up having a $1,500.00 tax bill that year, as a college student, working part time as a gas station attendant… Richest Americans my fanny!


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

My position has always been ….. that nothing significant will EVER change until/unless we get two things:

1) Significant lobbying reform, and

2) Public financing of all Federal campaigns.

In other words … get the $$ out of politics.

I'm not holding my breath.


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## richgreer (Dec 25, 2009)

I try to avoid politics on this board, but I will make an exception today.

It bothers me greatly that a sizable number of congressmen appear to think that defaulting on the national debt is "no big deal". It's a HUGE deal that would do irreversible harm to this country. Those same people seem to believe that compromise is a dirty word. No - Finding compromises is what governing is all about.


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## Bearpie (Feb 19, 2010)

We are (congress is) sending billions of dollars overseas in aid to all the problem countries with little or no strings attached. I say we cut all that out and pay off our debt first, and if there is anything left, help the poor in our own country. We have done too much for all the ungrateful SOBs out there and did we hear of them sending aid to us during our hurricanes, tornadoes and floods? If they want aid, they have got to straighten out/up.


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## yougbuckwoodworker (Sep 29, 2010)

everyone if u like politics watch DRINKINGWITHBOB.COM and its not in all caps hes really good and hits the nail on the head everytime


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

@Bearpie: I'm with you. I hear them(Obamy) talking "your SS checks won't get sent" "VA benies will stop" I haven't heard we will not pay countries we are supporting or Michele won't be taking any vacations to Africa for a while.


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## Jim Jakosh (Nov 24, 2009)

I try to avoid politics on here but this is the non shop section so it is fair game. I'm a skeptic when it comes to believing what comes out a politician's mouth. I don't think they run their households like they use OUR money. 
There are changes that need to be made but unfortunately , the only way legislation can get introduced is through one of the 535 Royal families and they would never do such a thing to torpedo the good life they have.
That job should not be a life time job, they need to serve and then g back to a regular job and their pay for a service job should end there.
They should have to pay a part of their medical coverage while in office and it should end when they are out of office. Madatory Obamacare for them while we pay for it!
Their retirement should be Social Security at the same rate of payment as all of us- no pay for life even after one term. If they had a stake in the Social Security system, they would have a reason to fix it. We have a big stake and we can't!

If you have a business and you screw up and take unhealthy risks and fail, you go bankrupt and have to start over if you have the drive to do so. The big banks and car companies should have had to do that too. They learned no lesson. Many banks are pulling shenanigans with the foreclosures and refinancing just like they did when they gave out mortgages with out backing or a means to pay ( which set up the borrower to fail) and we may see more financial trouble as a result. Who is supposed to be looking out for this stuff??

The country is out of control and a few are getting filthy rich at the expense of the rest of the Americans. These rich people buy off the politicians to make favorable legislation for them that puts them further out ahead of the average guy. We need honest politicians in office that represent the people. Lobbyists jobs should be eliminated.

All legislation should have a review date set up when it becomes law to see if it is needed in 3 or 5 years. Some of the things we are paying for are reintroduced in new bills and we are paying twice for the same thing. There is no check and balance. What a way to run a business!!

Neil is right. We need to get the big money out of politics. They pretty much buy the office with the BS advertizing and then it boils down to two rich people we have to choose from. I think all candidates should have an equal amount of air time to explain their position on the issues ( and for maybe 2 months before the election only) and all of them should be on the ballot and let the one with most votes win. We supported that in Iraq. So we have 56 candidates for president. Why not?? Boy would that change things- the Royals would never bite on that one!!

Boy, I'm getting hotter the more I think about our political system so I should quit right here…......


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## murch (Mar 20, 2011)

Bearpie - the U.S. and many developed countries in the west have contributed aid to the
3rd world that I'm sure is very much appreciated by the starving that we helped to save.
However, the Gov's of some of these countries seem utterly corrupt and you can't help wondering 
how much aid actually makes it through to where it is needed.
Still, when I see news reports it is very hard not to feel sorry for those poor wretches and give the 
charities a bit more.

Just on your other point, would Bush have accepted aid from, say, China, India or Russia during Kathrina?
How would the U.S feel about having to take over-sea's aid?
Would Bush be diminshed in the eyes of the U.S. people by looking for help i.e admitting weakness.
I'm not in any way trying to make light of an awful tradgedy. I'm just interested in your (and others) opinions.


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

I(and many more on here) am a Vietnam Vet. Yes it's very hard to ignore the little kid that's hungry staring at you while you're eating. But you have to keep in mind that same little kid could throw a grenade in your bunker
or put out a pistol and shoot you or carry a bomb into a group and blow everyone up. Meanwhile the people in power in this little kids country live a life of luxury.
Could we take overseas aid? Sure why not, China already owns us. Why not let them pay. Japan..we rebuilt their country after they massacred us at Pearl Harbor. Somoila …we keep pouring money down that rat hole…for what? Afganistan,Iraq? why? 
Meanwhile,our own politicians,under the guise of "helping the American workingman" are scr%$#^& us silly and doing their best to break our backs.
I'm in favor of term limits for both houses and also voting out all that are in there now. The American people are getting more fed up with this bunch everyday…maybe some of them are right….no more business as usual!


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

*Jim Jakosh*:

Not only do I agree with everything you said, but … I'll go a step further.

APOLOGIES, in advance.

They're all robbing us, Folks. I think the worst thing any of us can DO is to be a partisan.

I'm a registered NON-PARTISAN. Have been since I first registered.

I get my info the way I get my nutrition-from a wide variety of sources, and with as LITTLE processing as possible.

Most people listen to what they already agree with. What good is that ?

Most of what I hear on any forum that allows politics is blindly "party over principle." In other words, pretty much hypocritical BS. It was okay when MY guy did it, but now that YOUR guy is in office, ohhhhhhhh, no. It's NOT okay.

Which is like 4th graders' logic.

While they keep us all blindly conservative or blindly liberal … they loot the store.
While they dig up the most DIVISIVE issues they possibly can, to enrage "us" against "them," they do it SO THAT the angry ones will donate generously to their campaigns.

It's a very sick system. If you're blindly partisan, you're a symptom of that sickness.

Stop going to your favorite news sources. They only tell you what you already believe. Mix it up a little. Mix it up a lot. Turn off your radio, too, while you're at it.

I have NO interest in being told what to think. I can think pretty well. I want facts. Most of the "news sources" that most people turn to … tell them what to think.

I'd rather have an UN-informed electorate than a MIS-informed electorate, and-watching most peoples' takes on political stuff-we have a MIS-informed electorate.

We're all entitled to our own opinions, but NOT our own facts. Get facts. Best you can.

Coffee time


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## sarahss (Feb 23, 2011)

I'm just sick of it from all of them. Every one of them should be voted out in the next election cycles-from the White House on down. They have only their interest in mind, not ours. Most of us live within our means, and can't just raise our personal debt ceiling or increase taxes whenever we want to. How many times my husband and I have joked that we just need somebody that we can levy taxes against!!

I'm sick of the sense of entitlement that lots of citizens have too. It's just compounding the problem. Those who need help don't seem to get it, and others just grape the system. If we could just have some common sense spending, some of the problem would be fixed overnight. The government has taken what was meant to be a safety net and perverted it into a multiheaded monster that we can't seem to tame. We give money to countries who hate us, but people in Joplin, MO are living in TENTS! Where are their FEMA trailers?

I just hope we don't see all of our retirement plans go into the crapper if the US credit rating drops.


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

Unfortunately we have people standing up on TV(Cantor for one) that is saying"let it default and see what happens" That #$%^&^% would just say, well I didn't think it would be like that. Meanwhile his paycheck keeps on coming.
Like someone else said-let them pay into SS and see if they still want to play games with their retirement.
Tell the congress they won't get paid this month and see how fast the damn budget gets fixed.

Remember all of this the next election. It's the only thing you have to fight with.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

The average American household that carries consumer debt carries $14,687 worth OF consumer debt. Since over 50% of personal bankruptcies are due to health care costs, it's not safe to assume that everybody's loading up their credit cards with designer clothing and plasma TVs.

Sometimes, financial crises hit, but you still need to spend the money on the things that you deem most important.

I think it's all pretty complicated. I also think the idea of welfare or Medicare fraud is an easy answer, but one that's defied significant and repeated efforts to weed it out.


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

I agree NBeener. My personal debt is not even 10% of that figure but, the biggest expense my wife and I have is medical insurance. Can't do with it,can't do without it.
Three places they could cut costs would be Welfare,Medicare and the war in Afganistan. 
I guess guys like you and me aren't supposed to be smart enough to figure stuff like that out. The politicians seem to have an attitude that they always know best.


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## sarahss (Feb 23, 2011)

I love how the prez has made the commednt that the average American really doesn't understand the debt ceiling. While that may be true in part-I'm a healthcare worker not a bean counter for instance-I do understand basic goesintas and goesouttas and I also understand how to live in below the goesintas. Seems like the feds could learn from that. I also understand what happens to someone's credit rating when the declare bankruptcy (or default). Seems pretty simple to me too. The goesouttas can't exceed the goesintas, or there's a problem.

I agree with Howie-don't pay them until they do their jobs. It recently worked in California. Once the lawmakers had one week with no pay or per diem, the were miracoulsy able to compromise on a budget.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

I get disgusted by the use of the most vulnerable always when cuts are necessary -
Default is not an option and is NOT going to happen on August 3. The revenue is there - but gosh it would be great if we paid our debt service, soldiers, Social Security and Medicare but sent the ATF, EPA and HHS departments and others home for a few weeks while this was sorted out.
Gosh - a week or two without the department of the Interior, or Bureau of Indian Affairs working…I don't see a big down side.
Government gets forced to prioritize where limited money gets spent.
The government is NOT running out of money on August 2 - that is when we *again* max our credit card.
Repubs did the same thing - Governors as well - when California was in trouble - Schwarzenegger says we have to lay off Police and release 44,000 criminals onto the streets….Really?? Turning loose the crimials is the "first and least painful socially cuts to be made?" 
We get to the debt - yes the graphic was on Fox, but if someone has a better "accurate" number please use.
Under Bill Clinton the average deficit ran 500 Million dollars per DAY. Under Bush with the unfunded wars and medicare D - - 1.5 Billion dollars DEBT per day.
Now under Obama 4.2Billion every single day!. So when they "painfully slash" 20Billion from a program, that is merely 4 days of borrowing.
Obama was correct…but only when he was a Senator when he said:

"The fact that we're here today to debate raising America's debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. Leadership means 'The buck stops here.' Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better. I therefore intend to oppose the effort to increase America's debt limit."

That was in 2006… So was he just Full of Crap THEN, or is he a liar NOW. Those are the only two choices.


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## GregD (Oct 24, 2009)

It seems to me that governing well is very hard.
Issues are often complex.
Important concerns are often in conflict.


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

All right, this does it…...Mooshell….no more million dollar vacations aboard AF2!
No more $500 designer sneakers to wear to the soup kitchen.
Things are going to get serious so your mother will have to move out of the WH.
I think Slick Willie should be brought back. At least when he lied to us he did it with flair.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

If your house were flooded (debt) would you raise the ceiling or turn off the water?


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Make no mistake about it. Speaker of the House, Boner and the Tea party are at the bottom of this created crisis. The last 70 times it has been raised, it was a housekeeping issue. What the Koch Brothers and the corporate interests have done is create a monster they cannot control. All these Tea Party people do not see to know the difference between what they are supposed to say to get elected and what they are supposed to do for teh big money when they get in WA DC.

Medicare and Social Security are being called handouts when in fact they are insurance programs. We have all been paying the the premiums all out lives. They have a surplus, but the politicians have borrowed that money and put it in teh general fund. When you look at your tax bill, those insurance premiums are bigger than your income tax, for most Americans. This whole thing about a balanced budget amendment is to force the gov't to turn teh cash cow (Social Security and Medicare) over to teh Wall Street Gang and Insurance companies so guys like Dollar Bill McGuire can skim 1.74 BILLION off for running companies like United Health Care for a few years. The reason they are against single payer is because they know the cash cow will end and they can't compete if it is a option. I'm not for socialized medicine, but when i was a young journeyman in teh trade and our first kid was born I could easily pay teh bill with or without ins. Today, every one is screwed without ins unless you are in the top 5% that the idiots do not want to tax.

Speaking of tax bargains, the top 20 managers on Wall Street make over a BILLION a year. They pay no taxes, not even capital gains. They have special provisions in the tax code to take deduction for future potential losses!! I could go on, but what the hell is the point? I see a lot of opinions and ideas about what should be done in this thread, but very little fact.

The Koch's and their ilk have done a very good job of brainwashing the public and laying out a long range plan to eliminate the middle class. BTW, Old man Koch was thrown out of the R party back in teh 50s or 60s because he was basically a John Bircher. The Supreme Court in has rule there is no limit and no accountability about how much or where money comes into campaigns. Most people are so busy trying to make a living or find a job, they have no time to worry about these things. That is what the fascists want and need in order to succeed. This country has swung so far to teh right, Eisenhower and Nixon who be Democrats today!! ;-(( Ike warned about Industrial Military Complex, it is eating the middle class right now!!

You can click the link in my signature line and read about the 2 Santas. I always wondered what the hell are they dong to us. I makes perfect sense when you read it. You have to know the facts and have an open mind, not be a party follower who will follow the leaders through teh gates of Hell like Jim Jones' followers did. Unlike like Jim Jones, the current crop are not going to commit suicide too, they are laughing all the way to the bank while millions look for a job and live in their cars!


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Well, this is the sort of conversation that always leads nowhere. Whatever your political affiliations or not, none serve the needs of the country and it's "regular" citizens, - those that are the backbone of our society and who never seem to be able to find or take part in the American Dream, but they sure share nightmares. 
The main objective of the political camps seems to be to retain the status quo where either hardship does not affect them or they can make even more money at the expense of "lesser beings", Self righteousness, greed and self preservation is their only concern. 
I don't hold any faith that this political circus will change without anything short of a revolution by the masses and downtrodden, but yikes, that's un-American?


> ?
> Entitlement program comments particularly make my blood boil. They are entitlement programs because "most" people have paid insurance premiums all their working life to receive them, it's not a "freebee gift", it's "our" money - and we need it now ….. just like the ad states.  The big improvement to cut the strain of paying entitlement program recipients is to ONLY pay it to those that have actually paid the mandatory premiums during their working life. Entitlements programs are well funded if ALL those who never paid the dues for it stopped receiving it, but is there anyone with balls in the government going to go for that


??? This is but one sad state of affairs with only the status quo to look forward to and the deeds required to rescue the system way out of politician's bag of tricks.
Too much greed is the root cause of this crisis, and they will never agree to any REAL solutions, and you can be sure that these "Captians of Industry and Government will not be the last to evacuate the sinking ship, no, they'll be first off and sell the lifeboats and set sail for tax havens.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

What *Topa* said.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

The debt ceiling and deficit spending are two different animals. The debt ceiling was established in 1913 to try to keep Wilson from getting us into WWI. It was used a little to keep Roosevelt from getting us into WWII to support the Allies. The Japanese took care of that issue and teh rest is history as they say. Article 14 of the Constitution says the debt of the US shall not be questioned; therefore, when push comes to shove, the president or treasury secretary should be able to just pay the bills that come in.

The facts are Obama's Administration has cut spending by 1.25 Trillion. The largest cuts in history. Bush's tax cuts for the greedy at the top, his BS drug benefit making it illegal to negotiate good prices with the pharmas and 2 wars fought off budget by special appropriations would balance teh budget. If all the laws that are on the books now are allowed to run their course, the budget will be balanced in about 6 or 8 ye rs. Make no mistake, this BS that is going on is to put the last cash cow there is to raid in the hands of Wall Street and the insurance companies to leech off.

Currently, the Social Security Trust fund notes are not allowed to be sold in the open market. The leeches are licking their chops. They have cut middle class wages in after inflation terms by 50% in the last 30 years, wiped out many people's retirements and now they want the little pittance that remains, They want it ALL!


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

I still say that if the American people demanded that Congress' paycheck stopped if the government defaults, the whole damn bunch would vote for anything to have a budget deal.
I watched a congressman on TV this morning talking about the budget and lo and behold it comes out he is behind in his child support and lost his condo to foreclosure…..and this ass is telling us what we need!!!
Remember all of this your next election. Vote the whole bunch out.


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## crank49 (Apr 7, 2010)

"Obama administration has cut spending by 1.25 trillion?" I am *ROFLMAO*

That was a promise of what they plan to do within ten years.
Similar promises have been make before and never kept, of course.

At the same time they have *increased spending*, not planed, but already done it, by 4.5 trillion.

To put the problem into perspective; if I was the USA:
I would make $55,000 a year.
I would have $280,000 in credit card debt.
I would have an operating budget, cost of living, of $75,000 per year.
But I am going to fix this because I promise to reduce my budget by $2,300 dollars a year; 10 years from now.

I have an IQ of 155, but I don't need that to see how totally stupid this is.

Those 5% that some folks claim are not paying their fair share are already paying way more than half of all taxes that get paid. They are the employers of way more than half the population as well. When you raise taxes on a corporation, who do you think pays it? Hint; they have an obligation to their stock holders to make profit. They reduce overhead, i.e. payroles, or they increase prices for the goods and services they sell. Or, alternately, they move headquarters and manufacturing offshore to where taxes are not so high. How well has that been working out for ya'll.

Not very well for me. Cost me two jobs in the last three years.
Thankfully I have my wood shop to work in, for the time being.
I don't plan on letting me go any time soon.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

Well, I'm neither Republican nor Democrat. I don't like either party and as far as I'm concerned they are both for big government in different ways and neither one of them are going to do anything *serious* about cutting the debt or reducing the size of the government. The only thing that they know how to do is kick the can down the road and do everything they can to get reelected even if it's the wrong thing which is what they usually do. The middle class is the backbone of this country and they are being systematically destroyed and the top 2 or 3 percent have never made out so good. They don't pay any taxes to amount to anything nor do the large corporations. They have a lot of power and influence and the middle class, the poor, and the elderly just seem to try to hang on as best they can but they are not doing very well. It get's old watching big corporations and big banks getting bailed out and loaned government money at the taxpayer's expense. The financial sector and the large corporations have most of the power and they protect the big banks and the Federal Reserve and it's fiat currency which seems intent on inflating it's value away. Welcome to Happy Days!!!! The debt will continue to grow and our money will continue to loose it's value until a lot of things break from the strain.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

The current power structure (Both Dem and Repub) are currupt bastards.

However the class warfare argument is a ruse to keep the majority focused on bickering and finger pointing at our neighbors rather than looking at the pigs in Washington and asking WTF are you guys doing?
The top 1% in all societies have always done well - whether you talk of European Kings, the old money in the US, like Carnegie, Rockefeller or Hunt or Bill Gates and Warren Buffet.

However the idea that the rich don't pay their *fair share *is just a wonderful red herring - helps to have us peasants take our eyes off what is really happening.

The most recent numbers (updated in October 2010) show that the top 1 percent of tax returns covered an amazing 38 percent of all income taxes-nearly doubling the share of the total income they earned (20 percent). The top 5 percent of taxpayers (earning above $159,000) earned 35 percent of all income, but paid the big majority of all income taxes-59 percent.

On the other side of the economic divide, the bottom 50 percent of all taxpayers (who filed nearly 70 million returns) covered only 2.7 percent of the taxes, though they earned 12.8 percent of the nation's total adjusted gross income.

I don't make it into that top 5% group, but when the top 1% earns 20% of the dollars but pays 40% of the taxes for the entire country….exactly how is it that they are underpaying?
The corporate stuff - like GE paying bumpkus on their 5Billion in US profits is indefensible - but Hey, Thats what being the Presidents advisor buys you in addition to locking in all the Green Energy money.


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## Planeman40 (Nov 3, 2010)

We get what we vote for. In the words of that great philosopher Pogo, "We have met the enemy and he is us!"

Planeman


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Clearly what is indefensible to me is there are some individuals and corporate structures that pay no taxes on all of thieir earned income.


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

Anyone that believes the R's and D's are any different is a complete and utter fool.

Many people get upset by gridlock in Washington but they fail to realize that our founding fathers designed the legislative branch that way in hopes that it would be where bad legislation went to die. The surplus of the Clinton years was not due to any one person, what it was due to was the gridlock and fighting between the repbs and democrats kept alot of crap bills and pet projects from passing.

My solutions 
1) get rid of refundable tax credits, ie someone that pays in $1k in taxes can get a refund of $4k, just call it what it is welfare
2) have something similar to the AMT for the corporate tax, GE paying nothing in taxes was just wrong but many companies do it
3) if it cant vote it cant make campaign contributions (ie companies, unions, foreign nationals)
4) eliminate automatic withholding of taxes, make everyone write a check come tax time, they would care alot more where that money was going to
5) elected officials must put expense reports on their webpages with itemized statements and their "office spending" 
6) a bill must only contain the main subject of the bill, ie no funding to monitor cow farts in a crime bill


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

Furthermore, we treat our politicians way too much like our favorite football teams. It has turned into "yay us, boo them" where charisma, attractiveness, and a pleasant voice is what wins elections.

George Washington or Abraham Lincoln would have never been elected in modern times


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Cr1….I agree hence my term "earned"


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## pierce85 (May 21, 2011)

I was going to stay out of this one, but I'll just follow HorizontalMike's lead - What *Topa* said.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Some of what Topa said = fact

Some = fiction

Cr1 hit the nail on the head.


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## GregInMaryland (Mar 11, 2010)

Here is the federal debt, in billions since 1990, with the incumbent president:

National Debt

Year Billions President
1990 3206 Bush
1991 3598 Bush
1992 4001 Bush
1993 4351 Bush
1994 4643 Clinton
1995 4920 Clinton
1996 5181 Clinton
1997 5369 Clinton
1998 5478 Clinton
1999 5605 Clinton
2000 5628 Clinton
2001 5769 Bush
2002 6198 Bush
2003 6760 Bush
2004 7354 Bush
2005 7905 Bush
2006 8451 Bush
2007 8951 Bush
2008 9654 Bush
2009 10413 Obama
2010 11875 Obama

1st Bush increased the debt by 1383 billion in four years
Clinton increased the debt by 985 billion in eight years
2nd Bush increased the debt by 3885 in eight years
Obama increased the debt by 1462 in the two years that he has been in office (that there are records for)

The above numbers are from this page on wikipedia:

Now, there might be some variance in the way I computed the differences or even the base numbers, but the magnitude does not change the conclusion.

So then what is the conclusion?

Greg


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

So then what is the conclusion?

@Greg…my conclusion would be that all of them intended to screw us!!!


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Greg….according to CBSNews, that overtly conservative news organization, the national debt is now closer to $14 trillion.


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## jtash (Dec 16, 2009)

Hey Topa get brainwashed by Soros?

We have a spending problem. End of story. To fix it we need to address spending. After that we can fix the tax code. But we can't tax our way out of this.
Remember who started baseline bugeting? Look it up, read about it. This is what is killing the country. When they talk about cuts it's reductions in the increase not real cuts like people think. Remember the "children are going to starve" crap and "old people will be eating dog food" from back in the 90's when Newt and Clinton balanced the budget? Cut the spending and fix the tax code. No one should get away with out paying taxes rich or poor.


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## BobTheFish (May 31, 2011)

Ungh, I haven't the time to read everything since I last left this off.

To CR1 and those that are arguing against the "entitlements", and whom directly stated, "I am not my brother's keeper" I have a few things to say.

First of all, that whole thing about being one's brother's keeper is from the story of cain and abel. After being jealous and murdering his brother, god asks cain where his brother is, and Cain replies, "Am I my brother's keeper?", which is often taken that it's somewhat rhetorical, and is Cain saying that he isn't, and is somewhat impudent before our maker. The question the reader is left to ask is, "aren't we our brothers' keepers?", to which the answer is generally agreed upon as, "yes" and that we have a duty to look after and tend to our fellow man.

Secondarily, this country has always had a place in its heart towards the otherwise helpless.

"Give me your tired, your poor, 
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, 
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. 
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me: 
I lift my lamp beside the golden door. "

No matter how horrific someone's situation is, our nation has typically been aligned with the belief that we will take on the unwanted, and give them a chance they wouldn't have otherwise. You can argue that this means that we've been more than willing to open our borders to let in those that might not have opportunity elsewhere, but, then again, isn't it often we hear that charity should start at home before we give to those outside our national borders? In stating that we should take care of those at home that are poor and sick before we take care of those elsewhere, aren't we still stating there's a need to feed the hungry, heal the sick, and shelter the homeless, even if we're reprioritizing the location?

Just some food for thought before people go spouting off about how they're only responsible unto themselves.


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## Marc5 (Apr 1, 2009)

GO OBAMA!!!!!!!


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Yes Bob the fish - we have been aligned in the belief that we accept the unwanted and give them opportunity.

However that is a different mission than what we actually do today which is to take in the unwanted put them in public housing get them a vista card (food stamps) sign them up for the WIC program, give them preferential hiring as minorities to those that choose to work….

The US mission has NEVER been to feed the hungry, heal the sick and shelter the homeless. That is the Christian mission of helping our neighbors, but never the intended role of government until Woodrow Wilson.

Little history - there was no federal income tax at all until 1913. Somehow we still survived as a country, through the revolution and civil war, invented the airplane and Ford got rolling with assembly lines….all before the IRS existed.
The whole progressive movement and taxation as a redistribution of wealth didn't exist for the first almost 150 years of the country. We were financed by fees, trade tariffs and land deals. Taxation was local at the state and local levels.
We cannot get back to that level but when 50% of the population pays only 2% of the taxes, we have a problem that too many folks have no actual stake in the business of the country. Nevermind that 47% of the population is receiving government assistance.
There are good and needed programs - but we cannot survive when 1/2 of the people are on the dole. There just is no way the system can support that percentage of the population.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Bob,

Your quote from the statue of liberty is all about freedom and opportunity, not entitlements.

When did having cable or a cell phone become a right.?....when some politician figured they could take tax me on my production and use it to buy votes.

I agree we, as a society should help the sick and the homeless if they cannot provide for themselves. There are those among us, thru no fault of their own that cannot fend for themselves. I don't understand why we should help the lazy or those that think someone owes them something.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Actually what I said about the debt of the US will not be questioned is from a 1935 Supreme Court Ruling, not the Constitution.

The US budget cycle ends on Oct 31, so the first year of Obama's Admin is left over from the budget of Congress and Bush Admin.

There are plenty of tax loopholes and they are put in by the corporate Representatives bought and paid for US and multinational corps. You can say we have the highest corp. tax rate, 35%, but we also have the most loopholes. US ranks 26th in corporate tax collection in the industrialized nations.

While they are talking about cutting education, Social Security and Medicare ( which are solvent, the bastards just borrowed the money from us) there are a lot of corps that pay no income tax. GE is a prime example, paying no tax and getting billions of US contracts. The GAO (Gov't Accountability Office) brought this up 3 years ago, but the corporate whores in Congress did nothing. Here is a fresh look: http://www.greenlining.org/resources/pdfs/CorporateAmericaUntaxed.pdf

You may have heard in the news about the FAA being shut down because Congress can't seem to pass the funding bill. Obama declared the FAA essential and keeps the majority of it running by executive order. I am wondering what the oil billionaires are going to do about their patsies shutting down their rural Texas airports? They are the only people who use them for their private jets. ;-)) BTW, why shouldn't they pay their fair share? Most of us never use a private jet or need a rural airport.

There are big differences between the Rs and the Ds, but both have sold out to the corporations and big money interests. One of the biggest issues for those who do not have jobs in this economy, they have been voting against their own best interests for a long time. One prime example is the Tea Party folks. They seem to have gotten a bit of a shake up when they figured out their SS checks would be stopped in August ;-))

1989, Regan went to Japan to speak for 30 minutes and got a cool million for a fee. I wondered what he did to sell us (U.S.) down the tube to warrant that kind of a fee? He was the first to put the White House up for sale and everyone who has occupied it since has been out for himself, to hell with the country. I am beginning to have hopes for Obama being for the working class' recovery.

I will leave with the words of Kruschev, the Russian leader of the 1950-60 era. He said the US would never be defeated by an external enemy, but would collapse from within. Not sue if he had been reading the works of the Founding Fathers or not. They pretty well predict where human nature will take us. You are living through the suicide of an empire fueled by petty pissants that can't stand the thought of someone might be getting a pittance for nothing and greedy sociopaths who cannot stand not having everything for themselves. The US and Germany both recovered from the Great Depression; we got Roosevelt resulting in a vibrant middle class while Germany is still paying the price of Hitler's misdeeds. Wonder how this coming Great Depression II will turn out? Do you think the result of the Oligarchy's greed will result in socialism or even communism in the US?


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## BobTheFish (May 31, 2011)

When 47% of the nation is too poor to afford housing and food, then you have to ask yourself if it's true, of course, but also why that is.

Another thing to consider. When the US was in the midst of its great depression, the common consensus seemed to be that of "helping your neighbor out" and in return, they helped you. There was a sense of community, and a sense of being in this together. Regardless of what you think of our government then or now, there simply isn't that desire to help out our fellow man anymore. It's very cut-throat, and with every individual for himself. Hence the attitude of considering everyone on welfare as being a lazy bastard milking the system, or the idea of not being "my brother's keeper". The idea of every dollar *I* make being hard earned, but everyone else's dollar comes from an easy ride.

But on the flip side, it's also true that during the last depression, people had more "can do" spirit, and actually went out and MADE work for themselves, be it polishing shoes, doing odds and ends, or taking the most miserable jobs just to make it through the next day. You don't see many people selling or making their own wares much these days (and I know, it's LJ.. we all do it here, but honestly, how many people out there have hobbies like this, or can seem to get interested in starting such a thing). They, instead, are still seeking quick fixes and easy money with little effort.

It's no wonder, governing practices aside, that we aren't doing that much better than a few years ago, nor are we anywhere near pulling ourselves out of this mess. The attitude is just so very wrong.

And that's my point. we SHOULD be trying to do things the right way, not the easy way, and, not to sound wishy washy, we should be doing in a community minded way.


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## pierce85 (May 21, 2011)

Go Topa!!!


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

During Regan's recession to bust the trade unions in the 80s, I hired a guy that turned out to not be much of an electrician. I only needed help for a few days, his unemployment had run out. He asked if I could pay him at teh end of the first day so he could take the bus home and back to work the next morning? I did and I kept him until I had what I needed help with was done. I even found I had to redo some of his work after he was gone. I still do not regret not sending him packing the first day. None of these corpo pigs that take millions in bonuses for send jobs overseas or raiding companies of their assets like Mitt Romney could even understand such an act.

I have a lot of people calling looking for work every week. I don't even keep myself busy, but fortunately, I don't really need to work every day.


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## CampD (Nov 8, 2008)

As jtash states, the problem is baseline budgeting and a projected increase to the budget of 10% every year. Any cuts they "say" their going to make comes out of this "projected budget" increase, which in turn they call a "savings" but in reality its still increasing. You can not project an increase when less are paying in (unemployment rate is closer to 20% than 10).This scare tactic of saying we wont be able to pay SS is bull, the choice of which bills to pay is solely on the President alone.


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## BobTheFish (May 31, 2011)

CampD, that's almost word for word what Rush Limbaugh said yesterday. I was listening to his show while on a furniture delivery. Though I don't argue against it, I still don't agree with him that that's an excuse to justify not raising the debt ceiling, which, whether or not it's the greatest action we can do, is something that we still HAVE to do. I also disagree with his notions that the corporate billionaires are "earning" money and "creating" jobs. Places like Microsoft, Walmart, Target, AT&T, etc. may all hire and employ many people, but nothing compared to those that work at independently owned businesses, shops, and the self employed, and those with multitudes of people employed, like walmart and McDonalds, the majority of them are making so little they can barely get by. So I'm more than happy to tax them more (even if it's just reverting to reagan era tax codes), if it means bringing our budget back to some semblance of "balance".


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## Manitario (Jul 4, 2010)

interesting discussion. As a Canadian, I watch with interest at the debt happenings in the US as it indirectly affects the economy up here. Personally, I'm in an awkward place politically, as I am all for social programs and overseas aid, but also fully in favour of gov. being required to pass balanced budgets. It's all too easy to keep writing cheques and making excuses. A legal requirement for a balanced budget would force the public to make hard choices, eg. if the war on Iraq meant higher taxes in order to fund it…which as an aside, I'm not sure how the American public can expect the gov. to fund 2 wars without having an increase in revenue, ie. higher taxes. 
Up here, we had several great years of budget surplus, in which we began to pay down our national debt (and save billions on debt interest) until the economic crash happened in 2008 and gave the gov. an excuse to spend billions in bailouts, and at the same time cut taxes.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

I am not considered wealthy by any political or common definition, but for the life of me i don't understand the envy and disdain for financially successful people.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

RockyTopScott, I don't think there is envy of financially successful people, but I believe there is a lot of disgust with their lack of ethics. I have known a few personally, I will not do to people what they did to get where they are. I do not need a dollar bad enough to do it on the backs of peons living in cars and cardboard shacks going to the gov't for their health care in E rooms.

Rush Windbag is at the bottom of the problems we are experiencing. He does not report facts or even truthful ideas. He, Beck, and Fox News are nothing but propaganda outlet for the GREED MACHINE which funds them. They have BS'd this country so far to the right, most people in the heartland vote against their own best interests without even knowing it. If a small radio station starts to tell the truth, Rupert or one of the Oligarch Crowd rush in to buy it up and, more importantly, shut it up!

If cutting taxes for the top few creates jobs, why have they been leaving teh US since 1980 when we started cutting those taxes? All cutting taxes for them does is finance boom/bust cycles that destroys teh economic activity for the masses. We were relatively stable post WWII until Regan brought us Arthur Laugher's economic model.


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## BobTheFish (May 31, 2011)

Rocky, it's not disdain for being financially successful, it's the question of whether one got it in a way that denotes merit through earning it (which is acceptable), inheriting it, (questionable), being lucky (which can be a source of envy, and if that luck is paired with hubris, it can cause a lot of ill will), or by playing unfairly.

I, like many others, would have no problem if someone had millions of dollars, which they gained through their own hard work and efforts, treated their employees like equals, and used their excess for the betterment of humankind. In fact, that would be downright exemplary of how one should live.

It's that so much of the wealth is accumulated by having money to begin with (an unfair advantage at the onset), gained through investment (gaining money by already having money, not by work or effort), and then maintained by taking advantage of their fellow man. Then, to make matters worse, they often flaunt it. The only thing they AREN'T doing yet is actively seeking ways to torture or enslave their fellow man.

And it's not "the good life" we used to always talk about. It's a life full of material gains, but one devoid of meaning or true fullfillment, which in turn, fuels the desire for more materialistic gains, which leads to improper action.

I wouldn't want to be wealthy monetarily for anything I possess now. I'm happy to word hard each day, (it's fullfilling, and I feel I earned my pay honestly), and I really would not care to own much more than I already do, lest I become a slave to my possessions. The only reason I care much about those that have so significantly much more than I do is because they make life harder for me and those with less than I do, either directly or indirectly through their actions and wealth. Instead of making things scarce which should be plentiful, instead of charging me for everything I might wish to do, instead of pressuring me or my workplace for lower retail prices instead of paying a fair amount and keeping me employed, they choose to do otherwise so they can live a more comfortable life than the one they are currently enjoying.

And when I do things to help out those with less than I, it's more often than not because the actions of those with more than I have seem to have put them in that spot. (again, though, in some ways, helping those below you does make you a target for the other half of those that like to game the system, but in my regard, it's the lesser of evils).

So all in all, I don't care much about their wealth, just their insane need to amass more than the insane amouts they've already got.


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## BobTheFish (May 31, 2011)

Topa, I'm just mentioning the source of the comment, I didn't care to investigate to see how truthful it was, and in such, am conceding that even if that's the case it doesn't justify the other half of these people's points of view.

"If cutting taxes for the top few creates jobs, why have they been leaving teh US since 1980 when we started cutting those taxes? All cutting taxes for them does is finance boom/bust cycles that destroys teh economic activity for the masses. We were relatively stable post WWII until Regan brought us Arthur Laugher's economic model." - I agree wholeheartedly.


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## danr (Sep 5, 2009)

Tea Party Rocks,
Stop the crazy spending (period)
New party in town (thanks be to God)
Old Dems and RePubs (wake up)
America (wake up)


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## crank49 (Apr 7, 2010)

Quote: "GO OBAMA" by Marc

Yes, Please go. . . .* AWAY *


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

The problem is not just with politicians, it is all us us! Our country is still paying for programs that were started a hundred years ago. We need to make do with less government. When did our country become the land of what can your government do for you? VS What can we do for our country?


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

If there ever should be more taxes, let's put a $100,000 per year tax on anyone with an ivy league education.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

The biggest problem is not very many people pay any attention to the one thing that effects their lives more than any other one thing. About 6 weeks before an election, they listen to the biggest liar and vote;-(( Their ignorance and laziness is a burden on not only themselves, but the rest of us too;-(( Unfortunately, there is a lot evidence of ignorance of the basic facts right here in this thread!!


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*BobTheFish*, My uncle's dad extended credit to Joe Albertson in Emmett, Idaho when he couldn't buy a beer in the Depression. They knew him quite well. This is the guy that eventually owned the Albertson's grocery chain. He didn't want to be a chain, but with taxes at 91% in the 50 and 60s, he left the profit it in the business, grew it and hired more employees and built more stores. In the 60s, I believe taxes dropped to 74% on the top earners, but they still kept growing the businesses and the economy rather than give it to the gov't.

When Regan dropped them into the 35% range, they started taking their money out, they started raiding corporate assets and converting them to cash. Top management started taking nearly all the corporations profits for themselves. When I first learned about investing and stocks. PE (profit and earning ratios) were in the 8 to 12 range. That meant, earnings were 8 to 12 cents on a dollar invested, much of it was returned in the form of dividends to the investor. Top management was taking about 30x what the line workers were making. Taking more didn't make much sense as it was going to the gov't.

By the 90s, with tax rates in the 35% range, top management was taking 300x what the line workers were making. They found there was nobody to enforce any laws. There wholly owned Congressman could defund the enforcement agencies or stop the investigations with political pressure. Any attempt to by shareholders to bring this under control was declared an advisory vote and they kept raiding the corporations taking nearly 100% of the profits for themselves. To drive the stock prices, they were filing fraudulent financial statements and lying about the business outlook. PE ratios fell to 25 to 40 or less. Why would anyone buy a stock with a potential of 2 or 3 cents return on their investment? And many of them did not pay dividends at all. Microsoft is famous for this. They keep all the money in the company. Their stock price has been flat for a decade. Why would anyone want to buy or own that stock? This is true for most of what we are supposed to be putting our 401k and IRA money into for retirement!

I know this may be a little deep for a lot of people to follow. You have to do a lot of research and know a bit about a lot of fields to put it all together. The bottom line is the low tax rate on the top finances boom/bust cycles just like it did before we had all the regulations and tax rates that leveled things out for the unfathomable growth of the 50 through the early 70s. Our roaring 20s were in the 90s and early part of this century. We are entering our equivalent of the Great Depression of the 30s.

BTW, I don't know about you, but I am still getting litigation notices for stocks Merrill Lynch had us in during the 90s! A lot of my info comes from personal experience and lessons learned the hard way on the wrong end of perfect criminal activity. You have to factor in trade policies, labor relations and union busting activities and a lot of other factors. Nothing is simple when you start considering the consequences of any action.


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## peteg (Sep 2, 2010)

Just like listening to "talkback" radio or reading the local newpaper ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD, you guys dont have it all on your own you know, I think that APEC, the U N etc is just like a Summer camp for these guys to swap notes on how to screw you before you realise, then its tooooo late
But HEY out in the shed tomorrow I just carry on enjoying my time and dont stress out too much, remember "they" have been around for gennerations, I only have ONE, so enjoy it they will still be there in the next Generation when I have departed )) loosen up


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

A few statements by politicians I can't quite forget. After his unsuccessful presidential bids and finally being defeat and forced to retire form public life and the Senate, George McGovern, after a few years of making a living in the real world, said if he had known it was like this out here, he would have voted a lot different when he was in Congress.

Being interviewed on the eve of the Bush Clinton election, Howard Metzenbaum said it didn't really matter who won or lost, the country would go on just like it always has. With real unemployment at close to 25%, you really have to wonder if any of these clowns have a clue, eh?

The one that takes the cake is Dick Cheney, VP of the USA, "Regan proved deficits don't matter."


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

It is clear many of you have bought into the class warfare rhetoric.

You will always be angry at the wealthy and successful and don't stand a chance of getting there yourselves because of the hatred you hold deep inside you and how it has paralyzed your views of success.

I don't worry about those more successful than me, I focus on me and don't let anger, envy and the class warfare mongers bring me down.

If it upsets you that the CEO of where you work makes 200 times what you do then that is just sad…really sad.


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

The only opinion an individual has that counts is in the voting booth.


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## NH_Hermit (Dec 3, 2009)

I now know the difference between our Congress and the Boy Scouts.

The Boy Scouts have responsible adult leadership.


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## Dchip (Jun 30, 2009)

George Carlin - 



 as true now as ever

*a bit vulgar at times


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

The 49% of this country that pays no taxes need to start paying taxes even if they only pay 1$ and they should not get a refund!


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## BobTheFish (May 31, 2011)

Topa, I was just stating Reagan era taxes because we've been lowering and lowering and lowering since. Most people don't even want to go back to pre-bush II taxes, of which, even reagan era taxes were higher than.

Rocky, I don't envy their money, nor do I care about the chits of paper they possess. Instead, I think that anyone who takes life's highest goal as being to amass chits of paper with numbers written on them and a collection of baubles to which have no intrinsic value or purpose to be utterly sad.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

John in Horseshoe, you hit the nail on the head!! And they don't allow criminals in the organization.

Class warfare is not rhetoric, it was started in 1981 by Regan and the Business Round Table to break the trade unions. It has worked very well for them. the middle class is all but gone, The winners have doubled their income in real terms in the last 30 years while the losers have seen their income cut in half.

The only people who do not pay taxes n this country are the those without an income. Anyone who is an employer or self employed can tell you income taxes really don't amount to much, it is the Social Security and Medicare taxes that the wealthy do not pay that take a big chunk out of pay checks. Regan cut the income tax rates, found the deficits rising widely, raised the SS and MC taxes, took that money into the general fund to make the deficit look smaller. The great tax gutter really raised taxes 11 times and shifted the burden to what used to be the middle class.

Unfortunately, this government is working just as the Founders intended, with the exception of career politicians running for office continually and being slaves to their benefactors who hold the purse strings. Musoulini had to disband the elected representatives to establish a fascist governemt. The Facistists in the US have been able to pit the middle class against itself with social issues while stabbing it in the back at every turn. Now, we have Facisim through monetary control and propaganda campaigns against any honest representative who should get elected.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

BobTheFish, Most of the working class do not know thier taxes are higher under the curent system than they were preRregan. That is one of the beauties of the payroll deduction system; if people had to wirte checks to the Treasury every month or quater as I have for the last 27 years, they would not have been able to get away with the massive tax increases on the average American.

BTW, I used to be one of "them", but my conscience and Christian values will not allow me to contnue once I realized the depth of their evil agenda.


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## CampD (Nov 8, 2008)

Hmmm,.....aganda


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Thx, ;-) I still mix up 15% of my typing after being off Topamax for almost 7 years. At least spell check can fix most of it. When the bastard overdosed me, spell check could mot venture a good guess and I couldn't remember what I was trying to type!! Warning, DO NOT in any circumstances trust a DR!! without dong your own research on side affects.


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## zonkers (Aug 18, 2010)

IMMO: Simplistic but true, the whole mess; our economy, jobs, tax revenue, etc. can be boiled down to one single problem. Lack of Confidence. 
If the world does not become confident that the US government is capable of paying off our debt & ending deficit spending there will be no recovery. And most likely the economy will continue to decline.
If Americans don't have confidence that elected officials are capable of taking care of business they won't open their wallets and spend. 
If money doesn't start to flow more freely thru our economy we will continue to decline as a country.
It's time to face cold hard realities. The experiment of big government spending replacing consumer spending has failed. There is no arguing the numbers. And No, it is not an Rep. or Dem. thing. Bush spent like a drunken sailor. And Obama like a whole squadron on leave.
If the politicians make the preemptive cuts they know in their hearts are necessary to avoid the downward spiral it will hurt each and every one of us. For doing their patriotic duty we will reward them with pink slips. Sadly this is why throughout history we American have only reacted after a disaster instead of prevented them occurring in the first place.
Ironically, if the tea party succeeds they will most likely be doomed.


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## zonkers (Aug 18, 2010)

Are we blind or just stupid? Only a diehard cool aid drinker would dare disagree that there has been a hardcore effort these last two years by the left to transform America from a capitalist society to a social democracy. Are we really all that stupid that we can't look across the Atlantic and see that the social democracies' of Europe are in the throes of collapse?


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Class warfare was *not *somehow invented by Reagan - 
Politicians used it throughout history (world not just US) - go back to the Andrew Jackson campaigns, or even Lincoln. It has always been popular to "Keep the pot stirred" and the population bickering, rather than focusing on political dynasties like Rockefeller (Jay is still in the Senate today from West Virginia) add Kennedy's, Stom Thurmon, Robert Byrd and others.
Class Warfare is exactly how Social Security was passed by FDR and Medicare by Johnson.

The picture of the taxes versus wages since the 60s is complicated by globalization - until the late 60's there was no Toyota or Honda. California didn't start scrapping US made muscle cars and buying a 280Z til Carter.
Of course Nixon got the ball rolling in China, and it has only gotten worse for the US since.
So this idea that there is a 1:1 of lower taxes and outsourcing ignores all local politics and regulations. The fact that it was much cheaper (and of course no EPA to ensure propper behaviour) to build a new factory in Mexico after CLINTON passed NAFTA…has nothing to do with what the top tax rates on individuals are.

REAL EXAMPLE - look up Hortons (Canada's version of Starbucks), put their headquarters (and all those executive salaries and corporate profits) in Delaware. However they have announced they are moving HQ/operations back to Canada. USA 35% corporate rate, while the Canadian rate is 16%. So they moved and cut their corporate taxes more than 50%. And obviously not to some 3rd world location.

Just as on this forum - we are properly bickering with each other - the Primaries are fixed - so the only way to vote out incumbants is to go for the other party. This is why we desperately need term limits.
Who in SanFrancisco will vote Republican to get rid of Nancy Pelosi? I suspect many dislike her but the cannot get another dem on the ballot…in large part because she "Brings home the bacon" and has convinced them that a freshman would be powerless. (probably true)

Corporate strings aren't limited to Koch.
The Dems point at Koch - - - the Repubs point at Soros
Dems point at FOX----Repubs point at MSNBC
Dems scream about O'reilly and Beck (no more) Repubs point at Olberman, Ed Shultz and Maddow
Dems scream about Halliburton…..........Repubs Scream about GE/Immelt and Green jobs.

I'm sure Move on.org will not run any nasty ads throwing Grandma off a cliff, and Obama isn't raising more than 750 Million to run for a 400K/year job. LOL Neat statistic - 51% of political contributions from the Fox employees went democrat and the largest ever support went to Obama….not exactly the voice of the Repubs.

So the whole its the Repubs or its the Dems are two sides of the same coin. Agree or not, the only people taking a stand is the Tea Party….but by taking a stand they are accused of being inflexible, while we complain that everyone else compromise too often and nothing gets accomplished…....Crazy systems we have in place.


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## BobTheFish (May 31, 2011)

cr1, I don't see the dissonance, unless you are looking at it with thick as a brick literalism.

It's like me saying to you that you need to get a damned job or else you can't pay your bills, and then a few days later, after seeing you've done nothing to get a job, telling you that if you can't pay your bills, it's not like you didn't have a chance, but it's because rather than doing what was necessary to pay your utilities and rent, you sat around and did nothing.

One statement is stating a direct cause and effect, the other is stating the real cause and effect is caused by something else which causes the first cause.

Like billiards hitting each other on a table.

BTW, don't take the you and me bit of my example as more than just a general "you" and a general "me". I know you're well employed personally and not the type to sit around doing nothing.


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

I just read that Moochell has 22 assistants. Wonder how many are going to get pink slips?


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

Maybe all government workers should take a 10% pay cut like the private sector has over the past couple years? I am still wondering what Obama is doing, he seams to have no plan to cut the size of government. Obama appears as if he has no idea what he is doing and just punting the job to the republicans. If there are to be any new taxes it should be on the people who pay no taxes. We should also make it a requirement that if you want to vote you should pay taxes.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Well done CR1…well done sir.


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## BobTheFish (May 31, 2011)

Yeah, CR, understood. I just tend to go with old "you" and "me" because it's a lot easier than keeping track of all the ones, and which ones are referring to these ones or those ones, and maybe those other ones… Thing is not many people do like when people disagree and tend to get personal, And somehow I always get stuck either being as clear as mud, or offending when not meant. And the internet, not being able to pass along nuanced tone, tends to make things even worse.

Point was, simply statements like the ones you took aren't exactly as incongruent as you (or one) might think.

Of course there are examples of contradictions in what someone might say that aren't such, but still, it's better to give someone a bit of a benefit of the doubt.

Overall, I'm not thrilled with the idea of raising the debt ceiling at all. It's like when you're in debt, you decide to take out another credit card to cover your ass.

Instead of getting another credit card, there's other ways of getting back to balance. Mainly by increasing your revenue, and decreasing your costs. (we're going with the general "you" still since it's easier, and we both now understand no offense is meant)

So carrying the analogy back over, reducing expenditures and increasing taxes is the only way this situation is going to be resolved. Unfortunately, when the Bush era tax cuts were under consideration for expiration, people bitched and moaned about it meaning higher taxes.

Now those very same people are bitching and moaning about social security and medicare being cut (things, quite frankly, my generation has already given up on ever seeing, despite paying into every day we go to work).

It's like complaining about your cable being cut after you stop paying the bill.

Granted, we need roads (which are in serious disrepair in certain areas), schooling is needed, and there are simply certain things we, as a nation, MUST have. And there's ways that we can make cuts, (the military is definitely one of them), and it WOULD be nice if our senators had to live like us common folk do.

But it also comes with the understanding that to balance, we also have to pay for these things. We have to live with the fact that we need taxes. And some people can afford higher taxes than others.

Now, I'd LOVE if we took out all the tax cuts, the deductions, and the lovely little "incentives" we offer to businesses and persons alike. I'd LOVE for the childless penalty to disappear (the deductions one gets for having children, which, if you really want to point at those who rely on governmental support, a lot of it goes to those with children, whom, never planned for them, never gave any consideration towards the consequences of bringing life into this world, and no expect the world to bow to their needs), or maybe getting rid of social security payments for the retirees with a military pension, who worked a union job and get a pension from that, whom might collect a third pension from a deceased partner, and then social security on top of that, and STILL take a part time job, as though they need the cash…

I also think that when our president decided to punish those that hire illegal immigrants, rather than to simply send the illegals packing, he did one of the smartest things possible in his presidency, because he hurt those that were truly benefiting and facilitating the process rather than just trying to the same old same old. The wealthy business owners who hire outside of the US citizenry SHOULD be taxed more heavily. For all this talk about how THEY are the ones who deserve to pay less in taxes because theior money makes oh so many jobs, then why is it that while their taxes aren't being raised, they continue to ship more and more jobs overseas. It seems the more money we give them back, the less inclined they are to create those jobs they keep saying is the reason they should have such breaks.

For as much as some people seem to push for self regulation, people who are trusted to self regulate do a truly s***y job of it. Like our oily mess in the gulf a year or two ago. Or exxon's alaska fifteen to twenty years earlier than that. Or the stock market, which needed apparently governmental help to save it, only to turn around and declare it's a self regulating mechanism.

Wisconsin doesn't seem to be doing so well since taking on the ultra conservative "damn the government" approach. Unemployment has risen 0.2% for the last few months, and home prices are dropping still in the double digit percentages, and I haven't spoken to many people from the state, but not many are happy with the way things have played out as far as I can tell.

All in all, it sounds too much like a bunch of whiny brats on both sides of the isle saying how much they WANTWANTWANT, but not what they're going to give in order to make some of it happen.

And the people outside of the office are doing much the same.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

I say we divide up the country and let the big government advocates go their way and let the limited government go their way.

Which ever way you think is best, choose your principle and live with the result.


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## BobTheFish (May 31, 2011)

I should also point out that talking politics tends to irritate a number of really sore points with me.

First of all, I'm not rich, not by any means. I balance a lifestyle of living in an apartment that's probably around 400-500 sq.ft. , don't own an automobile, live without a television, and am able to keep my life rather rich and fullfilling, and still have enough to give to my friends, family, and neighborhood despite the fact that I make less than $30,000 a month and living in what has been consistently rated as one of the wealthiest and most expensive areas in the ENTIRE COUNTRY. Yet at my job, I'm still harrassed by people who make obscenely more than me to give them better deals. It causes some slight irritation to deal with people with a "I want/need more" attitude when they already have so much.

I'm 29, going to be 30 at the end of this year. That puts me square in the middle of a generation that remembers the 80's and the promises about cleaning up the environment, captain planet, crying indian, and Mc Donalds switching from stryofoam to cardboard boxes. All because the generation before me wanted to save the planet "for our childrens sake". For my sake.

But look what a piss poor fullfillment of that promise has been left to me. And now that same generation is pleas to do something about the economy "for our children and our children's children".

Please, ask me why I'm A LITTLE CYNICAL when I remember how life was in the mid 80's and can honestly compare how things were then as they are today.

I'm also the beneficiary of welfare… Or at least I was for the first 14 years of my life. Yep, I ate my fair share of government peanut butter out of a white tin can, and lived in a trailer for a portion of my life…. Except my mother finally was able to get off assistance, and now, fifteen years after getting off support, is able to purchase a house of her own…. And I've never taken a cent of unemployment, welfare, or any other government assistance either, despite paying into them. But 14 years of that support was necessary to keep us surviving at bare minimum until we had the means to do otherwise. Without it, I don't even know if I'd still be alive. So when welfare and support ARE needed, I would rather they be there.

For all my life, I've been employed by private business owners. When target, or walmart, or the local chain grocery store turned me away, (and believe it or not I have applied to those sorts of places when things felt hopless), I instead found employment, not by multi millionaire, nor by those even making half a million a year, but by those making less. And they paid me better than target or walmart would have. AND I worked my way up the ladder faster than I would have at those places. So I don't exactly feel like "big money" really creates "big jobs".

And that's about all I'm going to say tonight on this matter. Sorry if I upset some of you.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

???


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Bob,

If you are getting by on something that sounds like slightly less than $30,000 a month where you live then clearly you live in the wrong locale.

According to Obama you are wealthy because you make more than $250k per year.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Bob - what do you recall about the mid 80's you say you are 29, so born in 1982, the mid 80's you were 3 years old…...were you the baby doing the scott trade commercials or something? (I just assume you meant 30K/year not month)

I agree with you that welfare as a system needs to be there. But it should be a safety net and not a hammock.

Nobody is saying it is a 'rich'life on welfare, but to me it should not be possible to live from generation to generation without ever getting a job.
Part of that to me is structural, and by design to encourage dependance on the government. When you are on welfare you get rent control, food stamps, and medicaid. If you dare to get even a crappy job you lose your benefits. In upstate New York (around Bath/Corning) the welfare recipient can collect in benefits the equivalent of 44K/year tax free with medical while not working at all. And the Nationwide median household salary is in the mid 40's.
I don't think welfare should be equal to the median salary of the country, it should be enough to get you through a tough time, but be scaled back as you pull yourself up. Get a 10 dollar an hour job, then cut back 5 dollars/hour worth of benefits - - and so on effectively weaning people off the system.
Seems that LBJ ending poverty as we know it in 1965 has not accomplished it - and certainly not for a lack of throwing money at the problem.


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## BobTheFish (May 31, 2011)

Blah.. year.. not month. thanks for the catch.

Dr. Dirt, I was born in 1981 (october. remember, I said I'm 29, going to be 30 by the end of the year). Which means in 85 I was 4. I remember much more than you might think. I remember bits and pieces in preschool, and I remember my kindly old neighbor at the time who used to watch after me while my mother worked. I remember watching Jem on TV at my sister's grandmothers, and I remember being taken to the sawmill where her husband worked while he was alive not too far from her. I remember losing my home to a fire back then, and I remember my first time on a motorcycle around 5-6, before my sister was born. I remember my sister being born just before I turned 7, and that was '87. I remember when Bush Sr. was elected, I remember the Berlin Wall, East and West Germany, I remember Reagan being our president for a brief time in my life, I remember my grandfather working at a TV repair shop, and watching either cartoons or the news (when he wanted to watch) when I went to work with him, and though I didn't witness Star Wars, I remember the cartoon spinoffs and that wretched movie, though I can't remember if that was on VHS or TV.

I remember how we used to be paranoid of the communists, though not the way previous generations were, and before Captain America was released this past month or so, there was the crappy movie in the eary, early 90's where he was promoting an environmental senator, and I remember being taught about how precisely CFCs were bad for the ozone layer.

So mid-ish 80's is where I memories start…

Still, for all the promises I do remember, and for all the promises made to my generation, I see way too many of them broken. Those born maybe 5-10 years after me don't understand that disappointment, I believe. By then the promises seemed to have stopped being made. I'm still one of the people who is paying into programs like social security and medicare that the boomers and older are screaming and damned near rioting about making sure they get their fair share, and honestly, I don't care to deny them, but f*.... I live every day knowing I will NEVER see that. I will NEVER see a pension, the 401K thing will NEVER exist for me, nor will government or company funded health insurance…. Things the older generation is just getting used to the possibility of never having, and yet, these are things that are simply understood by myself and many my age as being things that simply do not exist for us already.

I'm fortunate to be employed by two jobs that pay me that 30K a year (again, typo/brain-keyboard screwup), as many I know are making probably about only 25K or less…. I'm fortunate to have a landlord that truly likes me and does me a fair share by making my rent only about $600 in an area where rents are more like $1600-$2400 a month (and that's NOT a typo. $1600-2400 a MONTH). Hell, most people I know have a roommate or two just to make it work… and I'm not in NYC, but rather an hour or so from it.

We're f*ed and we already know it. We're mostly just curious to see how bad we're going to be reamed this time.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

The US in not close to socialism, but there was great fear the communists or socialists would carry the country away in the last Great Depression. What has developed is a plutocracy, the same as in the early 20th century and in the post Civil War Era. The last 2 times we were very lucky. The backlash of this coming Great Depression may very well bring it. Who knows? Starving people do desperate things.

Not sure why anyone would think Regan invented class warfare? It has been gong on for thousands of years. Some of the most notable incidents were the French and the Bolshevik Revolutions ;-)) Ronnie was a Democrat. His mother-in-law took him by teh ear telling hem if he was ever gong to make anything of himself, he would have to give up those foolish ideals and start exploiting people. He became very good at it. Too bad he couldn't recall how he did anything.


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## lwllms (Jun 1, 2009)

YanktonSD writes, "The 49% of this country that pays no taxes need to start paying taxes even if they only pay 1$ and they should not get a refund!"

That's not true but, if it was, aren't you a little appalled that 49% of working people in this Country don't make enough to bring them up to the poverty level. The law of supply and demand makes high unemployment a good thing if you happen to be purchasing the labor of others. It's the reason working people's wages have been flat since the 1970's when they stopped counting the first 5% of those unemployed as unemployed.

The reality though, is that everyone working for wages pays payroll taxes. That 49% myth is about income taxes. Most people that pay income tax pay as much or more in payroll taxes as they pay in income tax. Unless you make a lot then you only pay payroll taxes on a small percent of your income. Politicians depend on money from the wealthy and that's the reason the regressive payroll taxes have risen as fast as corporate taxes have fallen for the last 60 years. Payroll taxes finance Social Security and Medicare which are the two programs the wealthy are talking about when they say "entitlements." In other words the wealthy want to gut the two programs that have kept a lot retired and disabled people from awful existences.

Here's a graph that shows how the cost of paying for government has been slowly transferred from employers, who do pretty well under our system, to those who work for wages and don't do nearly as well.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Great chart lwllms

See if anyone can guess which party controlled congress the majority of those years.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Great post lwllms!! ;-)


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## jtash (Dec 16, 2009)

Payroll Taxes

Social security and Medicare taxes, also known as FICA taxes must be withheld from employees' wages. Employers must also pay a matching amount of FICA taxes for employees.

So about half the payroll taxes are paid by companies "employers". 49% of the country isn't below the poverty line the fact that they don't pay fedral income tax is called buying votes.

The simple truth is that there isn't enough money coming in from the remaining employee pool isn't to cover the retiring baby boomer population. people areliving longer and the highest % of the population is starting to retire.
I am all for closing loopholes and having corporations pay their fair share but you can increase the tax rate on all of them and it still won't cover the dept.

The real question should be why are we in this mess? 
We as a country were spending too much.
Why? Because we, as a nation, use a budget method called base line budgeting. This assumes growth no matter what. So when they talk about cuts they are really talking about cuts in the growth not lowering the budget from the year prior.
We can bring up Reagan and Carter all we want but it isn't addressing the problem.


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## jtash (Dec 16, 2009)

Hey Rocky i think it starts with a D


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

The reason we are in this mess is because 95% of the people are not involved in the process. If they were and demanded the truth and accountability, they would vote about 445 scoundrels out of the House and Senate and demand they be in prison where they belong. The remaining 90 would get more like themselves who can't be bought like pork bellies on an auction block, I hope.

The 2 Santa Clause program started in the late 70s when the Rs realized the rich could not retake America from the middle class the Roosevelt policies had spawned. They started a program of spending as much as they could, run up the debt and yell like hell blaming the Ds when they got into office. It has worked very well. When Regan was elected in 1980, the deficit was under 1 trillion. He, Bush41 and Bush 43 got it up to 13 trillion +/-. Slick Willie Clinton, while continuing to stab the middle class in the back, did move us into black ink territory with a surplus beginning to pay down the debt. Bush43, cut the taxes on the speculators who are screwing up the economy, started 2 wars off budget to hide the cost for the people, got a BS pharmaceutical plan that the Congressional Budget Office said would run up debts by at least a trillion in short order and basically left us (U.S.) in the same condition the silver spooned, spoiled brat did with everything else he and his brothers every touched in their lives, bankrupt. His brother started us off with a bankrupt Saving & Loan in the first round of the deregulation disasters that has brought us the same style Depression that we experienced in the 30s. These are all verifiable facts. It should not take an IQ of Mensa qualifying standards to figure this stuff out. If I can see who is screwing me, most anyone should be able to if they turn off the stupid idiot box and do a minimum of research.

BTW, I was an official in the R party until they stabbed me in the back one too many times. ;-( I truly regret ever working for them!


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## ChuckM (May 12, 2008)

Sorry to say that America is too divided, too stretched, and too much in debt that its decline is unavoidable. No president can stop it. The voters have voted for a divided country, knowing it or not knowing it. Now, that's the consequence, and that's not the end of it, either.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

It does have to get worse before it gets better. The same thing happened in the 20s and 30s, the 1880s & 90s, the the early 19th century and prior to the Revolution. The quiet builders are in school now with red and green Mohawks, but they will straighten it out and their kids will piss it all away again. All you need is enough time for the current generation to be too young to have experienced the results of their own stupidity.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

That should cut down the number of drunks in Congress. Speaker Boner is known to have a high alcohol content ;-))

Read this: http://www.alternet.org/economy/151754/plutocracy%3A_if_corporations_and_the_rich_paid_1960s-level_taxes,_the_debt_would_vanish


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## jtash (Dec 16, 2009)

Alternet.org is not a legitimate source. What next the Huffington post, Rush Limbaugh?
Please tell me again who the majority party in the congress was for the past 50 years? It's 14 years to 36. Guess who? It begins with a "D"
You know, I use to be a D. Then I started doing research and not just listening to the same old BS. The facts are there. The link to table below shows it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Control_of_the_U.S._Senate.PNG

If you run congress as long as that you can't go around blaming the other guys for all the problems.

If you adjusted the rates for inflation the tax rate from the 60's wouldn't come close to paying off the dept. You have to look at the dept ratio to the GDP. Pulling numbers form decades ago doesn't solve the problem.

What's the problem???
Our spending as a percentage of our GDP is too high. Why? Base line budgeting! Who past it? Hint it begins with a D.
The second issue is the Ponzi scheme that is Social Security. When started, the ratio of workers to recipients was around 5:1 now it's about 2:1.


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## SamuelP (Feb 26, 2011)

Raise taxes.


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## lwllms (Jun 1, 2009)

"Baseline budgeting"-quite a nice buzzword you've got there jcash. Most large organizations use baseline budgeting. The alternative is zero-based budgeting which ignores historical data and leaves an organization reinventing the wheel every year. There are advantages to zero-based budgeting but it's also hugely complex, labor intensive and expensive in just a normal sized corporation. Zero-based budgeting would be a huge boon for anyone with an accounting degree, the government would need millions more accountants.

I suspect you may be following too many conservative talking heads without thinking things through. Zero-based budgeting and smaller government are mutually exclusive. Don't let the talking heads create straw-men that just obscure real issues, do a little independent reading.


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## NH_Hermit (Dec 3, 2009)

and the kabuki play in Washington continues this morning.

ABC news last night had five average citizens from different political spectrums, not concerned about their getting re-elected in 2012, who were able to resolve the debt issue in one hour flat. CNN reported on several new congress members opposed to raising the limit under any condition, but who had overwhelming personal debt. They can talk the talk, but not walk the walk.

I did contact my own congressman and asked him to somehow get Eric Cantor reigned in, and I haven't seen his face in a couple of weeks now.

Well, this poor old Republic has survived many crises in its 224 years. This one is going to cause harm to so many innocent people with a rise in personal interest rates, employers fearful to hire, and loss of investments. I've been watching my own 401(k) taking a dive these past few days. I think it's best if I stop looking and keep on working - and wait for 2012.


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## ChuckM (May 12, 2008)

People who blame either party for all the ills should look themselves in the mirror: they were voted into power by nobody but YOU. The tea party is not forced onto the system; people voted to have its members in the Congress! Everybody says they are working for the interest of the country and if so, the definition differs greatly among your Congresspersons. Or perhaps, their undeclared interests get in the way?

Finally, the US is not acting in its own interest by creating global instability or recessions for domestic reasons. Imagine if China (the easy target these days) were causing the global issues that the US has generated, would we all be so kind to say those are just self inflicted wounds? On one hand, we see comments like hating Made in China goods but on the other hand, we want China to keep buying the US debts. Where does China get the money if nobody buys its goods? The US Treasury can print money and find a dumb buyer (in my view) like China to bail it out. China can't. As much as we don't like to lose our jobs to China, we can't blame for all our ills on our partner. What I fear is our attitude will one day push China to treat Europe as the US (it's starting and it's called diversification) and we in the N.A. will have more to lose than gain. That won't happen in my lifetime (so I am not worried), but 50 years later, if not longer, the problems we see today in the US might just be a non-issue by comparison.

Do you people know how much China has lost its reserve by investing in the US dollars due to the declining dollar? Ask yourself this: If you invested in Gold and lost 25% of its value and expected it to decline further, would YOU keep investing in Gold? As a Canadian, I hope to see a strong America as our neighbor but we all have to remain fair and objective when we look at how problems are created and resolved. But if the US loses its AAA credit standing and continues to rely on printing money (QE3, 4,5, etc.) to solve its debts, the day of bankruptcy for the whole country is as certain as the sun rising from the east.


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

Yes raise taxes on those lazy idiots who pay nothing and live off of the welfare dime!!


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Best thread in history. I've laughed, cried, pumped my fist in victory, resisted punching my screen; all signs of a great thread.


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

lwllms… who do you think owns those evil corporations???? They are owned by individual, through their pensions, 401ks and their stock. Taxing corporations is like taxing the growth on your pension. The US has second highest corporation tax in the world behind Japan. Have you ever wondered why so many corporations have moved their enterprises overseas?


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

There should be a special tax to Obama's Job Czar who this week moved 50,000 Jobs to China.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

There should ne no tax on Czars because ther should be no Czars.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

Disdain for the wealthy is a facile bumper-sticker slogan.

Personally, my disdain is for the Milton Friedman school of economics that advocates the sort of policies that led America to economic devastation, in exactly the same way that regimes like Pinochet brought Latin American economies to their knees.

"Free-market Capitalism" is like letting your children raise themselves, and-historically-has ALWAYS made the rich fabulously wealthy while putting millions of middle class people into poverty.

Always.

When we (Clinton, at the behest of Phil Gramm, et al, doing the bidding of the bankers) de-regulated the banking industry, we got the biggest pilfering of the middle class and poor, BY the wealthy, in this nation's history.

Time and time again, it's proven that de-regulation is just another word for Social Darwinism-law of the jungle.

Do we REALLY want that ?


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

"Have you ever wondered why so many corporations have moved their enterprises overseas?"

If it weren't that, it would be the cost of labor.
If it weren't the cost of labor, it would be getting away from thinks like OSHA, or environmental protections.

If there's a dime to be saved-employees/planet be damned-they'll save it.

It's their only purpose in life.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*Alternet.org is not a legitimate source* That is right. It is a very simple explanation of the tax burden shifting to the middle class and destroying it. It does not cite any facts and neither do most of the posts in this thread.

*Do you people know how much China has lost its reserve by investing in the US dollars* China has lost nothing. Under favored nation status granted under Slick Willy Clinton, we, U.S., literally gave them all the dollars they are using to buy our debt. This is nothing more than U.S. committing national suicide. No democracy in history has lasted more than 200 years and the participants eventually realize they can leech from the public coffers. Ours started when Harry Truman had to borrow money to move out of the White House. Feeling sorry for him, Congress created a presidential pension. It has escalated out of control from there. If we can do that, I want some too attitude has prevailed.

*Yes raise taxes on those lazy idiots who pay nothing and live off of the welfare dime!!* Please identify some of these folks. You wouldn't happen to be talking about the corporations who pay nothing in taxes but take billions in US contracts and other subsidies would you? Individuals who pay no taxes have no income. Any poor or working class person with any income pays a higher percentage in taxes than anyone with enough money to live beyond poverty level./

*who do you think owns those evil corporations????* Doesn't really mater much anymore. The institutional investors sit on their hands and let management leech off nearly 100% of the profits. Those of us who own stock have no say in corporate governance./ Any efforts trying to reign in management's misdeeds is declared advisory and they continue to do as they damn well please taking nearly 100% of the profit out of the company for themselves. I can site individual stock examples if anyone cares to know what they have done.


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## PutnamEco (May 27, 2009)

Re: 
Murch said:
Just on your other point, would Bush have accepted aid from, say, China, India or Russia during Kathrina?
How would the U.S feel about having to take over-sea's aid?
Would Bush be diminshed in the eyes of the U.S. people by looking for help i.e admitting weakness.
I'm not in any way trying to make light of an awful tradgedy. I'm just interested in your (and others) opinions.

Bush did accept aid from all three….
International aid for Katrina

Cuba was the only one we turned down.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*There should be a special tax to Obama's Job Czar who this week moved 50,000 Jobs to China.* Call your Congressman!! The US tax code gives deductions to companies who move their plants overseas. From 2000-2008, 50,000 manufacturing PLANTS, not jobs, moved overseas, mostly to China. Mexico is upset that companies are leaving Mexico for Southeast Asia!

*Time and time again, it's proven that de-regulation is just another word for Social Darwinism-law of the jungle.*

*Do we REALLY want that ? Good point Neil! ;-)) * There is growing archeological evidence we, ******************** Sapiens, killed off the Neanderthals. They lived in large groups who all worked for the good of the whole. ******************** Sapiens, on the other hand, has the capacity for senseless violence. Our capitalist economic system is called capitalist because it is a capital crime against humanity when unregulated. If there should be no regulation, why not have football without rules? Just throw the ball on the field and who ever has the ball is the winner for now, No end, just football as long as someone has it ;-)


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

BTW, The Neanderthals had a larger brain capacity than we do ;-))


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

The biggest problem in our country is that the taxpayers are out numbered by those who are paid to vote.


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## lwllms (Jun 1, 2009)

YanktonSD,

I'm afraid you've bought into talking points. The US has one of the lowest corporate tax rates in the industrialized world:










My "conservative" friends also tell me if one taxes corporations it only increases prices. I don't get an answer when I ask if that means I have to pay a corporation's share of taxes even though I choose not to do business with them? and follow up with, "Don't you believe in individual freedom, freedom of choice and personal responsibility?" There are a number of businesses out there I prefer not to do business with because of their policies and practices. Do you think I should have to pay their share of taxes anyway? Don't kid yourself, production is generally moved off-shore to take advantage of lower labor costs.

BTW, Yankton, I am president of a corporation and I know who owns it.


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

Capitalism has fed more people than any other economic system. When you look at socialism, communism, and fuedalism people starve, flee or get murdered to sustain the system. There comes a time when the wealth runs out and can no longer be re-distributed.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

And escape environmental laws and regulations. Back before any of these were passed, I went fining in Lake Washington near Seward Park. I just got my boat out in the water, a turd floated past. I have never spent much time in Lake WA since, even though the Clean Water Act has cleaned it up. The air is much better looking at teh Seattle skyline now than back in the 70s. Corps have take their polution to China and Mexico rather than be responsible citizens. They are, after all, according to the Supreme Court, people too.


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## NH_Hermit (Dec 3, 2009)

What I am hearing here is that unbridled capitalism breeds greed which in turn breeds corruption.

This is something I can agree on, and I most certainly agree that de-regulation is Social Darwinism.

BTW, I'm enjoying this thread. See Ms. Debbie, we can play nice.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Regulated capitalism has fed more people than any other system. Unregulated it exploits children and every other disadvantaged person it can devour.


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

hmmm…..interesting graph, The US has the second highest corporate tax rate behind Japan. Yet our tax collections from corporation are much lower than other countries! Congratulations! you discovered the Laffer Curve!


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

We need to bring back capitalism….try to name one segment of our economy that has not been regulated since the 1960's?


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

And the envy of the successful and wealthy goes on.


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## pierce85 (May 21, 2011)

Source: Bureau of Economic Analysis.


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

So are you saying that we have a bigger economy today than in 1947 with that chart?


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## pierce85 (May 21, 2011)

YanktonSD - look at the pre and post collapse corporate profits. Now look at the unemployment rate chart below that. Corporate profits are higher than they've ever been and the unemployment rate is still hovering above 9%.


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## CampD (Nov 8, 2008)

"The US has one of the lowest corporate tax rates in the industrialized world" and basing that against the % of GDP with a pretty graph is a bit skewed my friend.

" look at the pre and post collapse corporate profits. Now look at the unemployment rate chart" 
You can see clearly where NAFTA kicks in


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

What happened in late 2008 that caused the unemployment rate to spike?


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

Obviously if you have a 100 corporations that make $10 vs 1000 corporations that make $10 you are going to increase corporate profits 10 times. That is what your chart demonstrates.


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

"post collapse" corporate profits are a sign that the economy was improving, however some of it could be merely a shell game. Where did these charts come from? Because much of the corporate world has been in free fall for a while with the exception of overseas businesses.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

lwllms - you need to look at the title of your graphs - it is taxes as a % of GDP.

THe US has the highest % at 39 - with many loopholes and deductions that make effectibve rates lower (to 0 if you run the Obama network at MSNBC like GE did)

Norway has high corporate taxes as a % of GDP meaning they produce and export very little to the rest of the world. THe market for Lutefisk (that lye pickled herring) isn't as populare as China's flat panel TV's

Hortons moved from the US to Canada for lower tax rates… your graph shows canada higher as a % ofg GDP but their rate is less than 1/2 what the US corporate tax rate is.

Measuring GDP is complicated (which is why we leave it to the economists), but at its most basic, the calculation can be done in one of two ways: either by adding up what everyone earned in a year (income approach), or by adding up what everyone spent (expenditure method). Logically, both measures should arrive at roughly the same total

So if you take corporate taxes (for the few remaining companies here) and divide by the total income of everyone in the USA and you get a lower % than the industry of smaller countries that earn significantly less than the average US resident.
Your graph is the lefts talking point, that if you stand on one leg cover 1 eye - squint the other and use GDP INSTEAD of actual tax rates - you can spin any economic story they want and call it Rhetoric instead of a LIE.

Here from the CBO are the actual tax rates by country.
http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/69xx/doc6902/11-28-CorporateTax.pdf
Unfortunately it is from 2003 - e.g. Canada just lowered their rate which encouraged Hortons to move back into Canada - but the US rate is still over 39%...just don't see a newer chart from a (purportedly anyway) unbiased source.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Lies, damn lies and statistics


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

The problem with the tax code is that there is deductions. We should have a simple flat tax. You earn a dollar you pay 15-20 cents to the government. That is with out any deductions or tax cuts.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Yankton, Just wondering, where do you get your news?


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*We should have a simple flat tax. You earn a dollar you pay 15-20 cents to the government.* Millionaires and bilionaires will never go along with that )


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

Millionaires Billionairs and deadbeats will never go along with it. But also average people will be more concerned about what government does with our money.


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

WSJ


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*We need to bring back capitalism….try to name one segment of our economy that has not been regulated since the 1960's?*

Actually most of the meaningful regulations were in place after the Great Depression to stop another one, but shortly after the 60s, they started chipping away until we have criminals running the financial service industry stealing us, U.S., blind! ;-(( Prime example is Goldman Sachs selling garbage mortgage backed securities to pension funds, states, institutional and others; then, making bets that those securities would fail, making billions in the process. What are federal prosecutors doing? Trying to convict some clown riding a bicycle in France for using drugs during the race. Who gives a rat's a.. , we need federal prosecutors to get their heads out of their asses and join the real world.

After the Great Brinks Robbery in the 50s, there was a lot of talk about the perfect crime. I have thought from time to time about what the perfect crime would be. Now I know, get an Ivy League MBA and run a financial institution.


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## CampD (Nov 8, 2008)

Topa,
Just become a politician


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Why be a whore when there is more money in being a thief?


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## lwllms (Jun 1, 2009)

DrDirt,
You're a comical guy, talking about left wing talking points then putting up a chart of statutory corporate tax rates. If you know of a publicly held corporation that pays the statutory tax rate I'd sure like to know about them. There's a huge difference between effective tax rate and statutory tax rate.

YanktonSD,
Regulations?? We need more regulations, did you happen to notice the Wall Street meltdown? The single biggest cause was deregulation and lack of enforcement of regulations. Earlier you mentioned 401K retirement plans. If you have one, my guess is that it fell in value about 40% when Wall Street crashed. 40% is about what was being skimmed off the top of stock purchases for years and the commissions and fees paid. DrDirt doesn't appreciate my "left wing" sources so I'll give you one from the CATO Foundation which is as right and pro-business as anything out there. For years, more than a third of stocks sold on any given day were "phantom shares." These didn't exist and were never delivered to the purchasing portfolio. This continued right up to the crash and continues today-nothing has changed. If I operated my business this way, I would quickly be prosecuted for fraud.

http://www.cato.org/pubs/regulation/regv31n1/v31n1-7.pdf

We have a model for a quick economic recovery and it does include tax increases. We know President Clinton's Deficit Reduction Act of 1993 led to a quick recovery and the first balanced budget in years. Employment and the economy grew at record rates as a result of this act:

http://bancroft.berkeley.edu/ROHO/projects/debt/1993reconciliationact.html

The GOP says we can't raise taxes and points to President Reagan as an example but Reagan did raise taxes to deal with a recession. In fact his tax increases were larger than President Clinton's.

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/david-stockman-we-need-to-raise-taxes-like-reagan-did/

There's an easy fix and we can all benefit, we just need politicians in Washington to quit posturing for the 2012 elections and do what's right.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Yah LLWMS I don't know of anyone that pays the full tax rate - everyone I know on the personal tax rate takes the standard deduction, and often has a couple kids in there to get the child deduction, and then a mortgage etc. etc. etc. It is the same at the corporate level, with special amortizations, R&D Tax Credits, Green Energy, Carbon Footprint reduction, US Green BUilding Council memberships etc. etc.

My comment and graph was a simple one - the Repubs state that the US has one of the highest Tax RATES in the world. THat is a Fact. By the way there are deductions in the rest of the world as well, tax deductions and trading favors with the politicians is not unique to the USA.
Point is that you can come up with a picture to bury our rate and make it look low if you decide instead of talking about tax rates, you only take the corporate taxes paid by the US businesses (Remember that Sony, Nintendo, LG, Panasonic and most consumer electronics and such are all made overseas) so you only take our Corporate taxes paid - and divide by EVERY BIT of consumer spending in the country and then chant SEE WE PAY LOW TAXES AS A PERCENT OF GDP.

Well sure - if we just take all countries taxes that start with the letter U and divide by the square root of Pi, the US and UK have really low tax rates…. but that number doesn't describe the actual tax burden of the individual company, just that you CAN (and did) dilute it by all of the consumer buy now pay later credit debt buying Chinese crap for the year to try to say corporate taxes are low…

Heard Forbes talk in wichita last tuesday. He also mentioned that the ACTUAL average corporate PAYMENT is around 23% (so after all loopholes/kickbacks and such). THis is why the Ryan plan pushed for a flat 25% corporate rate with no deductions.
Clintons turn around is not the DRA which focused more on the death tax - but on "the end of welfare as we know it" as driven by the new republican house and the Contract with America.

Just like there would be NO talk of reducing spending as part of raising the debt ceiling, had the republicans not taken the house. All the dems would have just lined up to kiss obama's a$$ and push it right through last March through both houses on a straight party line vote and continued spending under the business as usual mode.

I am comical but don't drink the cool aid and know that just raising the top tax rate from 36-39% will not magically handle Obama spending 4.2 billion/day that he borrowed…which is 3 times what bush spent.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Need to address spending - pasted from the following
http://confoundedinterest.wordpress.com/2011/04/18/100-tax-on-rich-raises-only-13-of-the-current-year-deficit/

*100% Tax on Rich Raises Only 2/3 of the Current Year Deficit*
Well, so much for the tax/soak the rich rhetoric.

A 100% tax on taxpayers earning $500,000 or more would STILL leave us with a $500 billion deficit.

And that is assuming that don't move out of the country.

Look at the IRS numbers for 2009. There were 717,932 filings for $500,000 and over. This amounts to $1,029,256,075.

If we lower it the John Edwards standard of $200,000, it would be $1,941,462,807 which exceeds the current deficit.

But confiscating income above $200,000 would be destructive to the economy and drive away capital from our shores. We would be the new Venezuela.

So even if we tax the rich at 100% tax rate, we would only pay of 2/3 of the current deficit.

*There simply is not enough money in our economy to support this level of spending. And with the baseline it still increases 7-8% every year forever. With this scale - what does that extra 3% tax on those over 250K actually accomplish - assuming there would not be some deduction ofsetting the new rate anyway*


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## BobTheFish (May 31, 2011)

*Problem With A Flat ("Fair") Tax*

I've explained this a million times, and it never seems to sink in.

A Flat Amount Tax:

Bob Joe and Jim have different jobs, and thusly different wages.

Bob brings home $100 a day, Joe brings home only $10, and Jim a measly $1.

There's a flat amount paid in tax to the government of 50 cents a day.

Bob is left with $99.50, Joe with $9.50, and Jim is left with 50 cents.

Collectively, they all pay 33% of the tax revenues gained by the government. Bob loves this system because his taxes are low, Joe likes it because everyone above and below him pay the same taxes, and Jim is screwed.

After rent, (two dollars for Bob, with the nice penthouse, a dollar for Joe's mortgage on a very modest home, and thirty cents for Jim's rat infested apartment), and groceries (Bob like Salmon for dinner, and a nice brandy, so his is about another dollar, Joe likes eating steak and having a beer, which costs him fifty cents, and Jim is stuck eating a hotdog and drinking rainwater he collected for a very modest ten cents…), Bob STILL is left with 96.50, Joe is all right with $8 and Jim is lucky enough to have two nickels to rub together, (which is his idea of "paying for heating" in the winter). Day two goes much the same for expenditures and by the end of the week, Bob's practically a millionaire compared to our little fella Jim, and Joe's a little envious of Bob living the good life, but is content not being Jim. (it really sucks to be Jim).

Overall, everyone paying their "fair share" of the collected taxes doesn't exactly leave people feeling like their "equal" after all.

A Flat Rate Tax:

So the government hears the pleas of Jon and Jim, and decide to instead impose a 10% (to keep the numbers easy to manage) flat rate on one's earnings! Well, Bob pays $10 in taxes, and is NOT HAPPY about it. Jon is content with paying $1, and Jim is pleased as punch at first to only have to pay ten cents! Maybe he can upgrade to using sawdust to heat his home!!!

Well, now the precentages of collected taxes are 90% from Bob, 9% from Joe, and a measly 1% from Jim!

Well, OF COURSE Bob isn't happy at all about this at first, but rent and groceries get collected, and Bob STILL ends up with $87 after the first day, Joe with $7.50, and Jim is happy as can be! He has about 50 cents to his name! Well, maybe not THAT happy, because by the end of day two, Bob has $174, Joe has $15, and Jim's still only got $1.20… (sure, it's a bit more, but it's still creating an ever larger gap as things go on)....

At the end of either system, Bob, who makes the most, can afford to give up the most, has an obscene advantage over the Joe, the working class guy, who might have a crack at some upward mobility, but still is far from approaching Bob's level of wealth (and Bob's keeping it all!!!), and Jim is still destitute, lost in the hopes of one day achieving what Joe might have…

Now, Instead, if Bob were taxed at a 50% rate, Joe at 10%, and Jim at 1%, Bob's still wealthier than anyone else, with about $50 to his name, Joe's still got $9 after his taxes, and Jim's payment of a paltry penny doesn't exactly hurt him as badly, (but he still pays SOMETHING), and maybe he can eat a steak or have a beer once a week, or might get a rat trap for his apartment…. Nevertheless, even though things seem unfair tax wise, The disposable income afterwards is a bit more homogenized, and things are, remarkably, "fairer" after taxes. (though still, nobody's perfectly equal).
Hence, progressive taxes , where you pay progressively more as you make more, (because you can afford more), are really the most fair.

(Note, although my numbers are for simplicity's sake, if you're making $20, you're making 10 times what the average wait staff makes on the books. The rest of their "wages" is garnered via the kindness of strangers. And some of the CEO's and higher ups in the corporate and financial industry's ladders are, in fact, making over 100 times your wages…. Consider that when you think about the disparities I put between Bob, Joe, and Jim…)


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

The majority of the discussion seems to be along the lines of raising (or not) corporate and high wage earner taxes versus cutting (or not) entitlements. Throw in a little regulation versus deregulation, some trade agreement grieving, some Presidential angst, and here we have an interesting thread.

I noted one nod to the Laffer curve, but no trickle down mentioned (the way it was put to America that lower tax rates would mean more taxes collected). Remember ?

It is refreshing to see such diverse points of view traded so openly without flaming and rants of the nearly insane.

I haven't seen much mentioned here (other than the recent wars' cost) on the old favorite military-industrial complex. It's big, you know. It seems downright unpatriotic to question our military or what it takes to keep us safe.
I offer (for thought) a graph from 2006 showing US military spending versus other countries:










I ask the question "What about this?" How can they talk about cutting SSI or any of the other "untouchables" and not go near this ?


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## beginner1 (May 25, 2011)

The reason the debt ceiling is so important is "Obama Care". In 2014 when more of Obama care kicks in, the government will need almost 1 trillion dollars to feed it. So Obama doesn't want to face this then because its an election year. Its that simple. My source is a friend who goes to Washington to lobby for money for education.


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

@beginner1, That is one of the near term problems. If you have the time, read this…

http://finance.yahoo.com/banking-budgeting/article/113222/why-debt-crisis-is-even-worse-than-you-think-businessweek;_ylt=AokSPlmFimlLoIfandFRTpzyBK1_;_ylu=X3oDMTBzdWhmNWhlBHBvcwMxBHNlYwNhcnRpY2xlRmluYWwEc2xrAzE-?mod=bb-budgeting


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Interesting article, both Rs and Ds are lying ;-)) Now we are getting some where, closer to the truth!

What you want to cut corporate entitlements; ie, defense spending? What will those CEOs to make their numbers for the quarter if their entitlements are cut? Interesting how The Brown Brothers, Brown and Root made gillions in Vietnam when LBJ was in office and halliburton made them in Iraq when Cheney was in office. Wonder how that works?

Did you ever wonder why it is a crime for the public to rob a bank, but a bank robbing the public is OK?


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## jtash (Dec 16, 2009)

Lwllm, base line budgiting is not a buzz word it's a fact. This is the way Washington does it's budgeting. It's a valid method for producing a budget for a smaller company that dosn't have many variations in expenditures and can evaluate and eliminate items that are no longer needed.
Do you use 8% growth for your budget no matter what?
if you reduce the amount of incease do you call it a cut? As for corperations heres a good link, i do agree we need to look at our tax.
http://finance.yahoo.com/taxes/article/112560/what-top-companies-pay-taxes-forbes


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## jtash (Dec 16, 2009)

Alternet like Mother Jones is not a legitimate source.


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

The reality is the military needs to be cut to, we can no longer be the babysitter to the world. We will need to cut Social security benifits, Medicare, Medicaid and a whole host of programs and pet projects. We will have to get our financial house in order to sustain our country. Unfortunately niether republicans or democrats have the courage to do so, they just keep kicking the can down the road and it makes the problem worse.


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## jtash (Dec 16, 2009)

David, nice article. 
Yankton, I agree.


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## GMman (Apr 11, 2008)

Guys you need to get BUSH back in and throw your shoes at him.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

What *GMman* said.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

I am responding to a beacon I just noted in the sky. My red phone is also ringing.
Did someone utter the words, "flat tax"?


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## GMman (Apr 11, 2008)

What H Mike said.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Cut the Military? I'm glad I stockpile. Don't worry, though, I'm a Country boy. If something big goes down, I'll do my best to protect you. Mike, you down with those cuts?


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

I gotta' ship load of old shoes! Any of them that I can't use on Rick Perry I'll save for Bush! Trying to maintain a perpetual war machine at the cost of an education budget is political suicide.


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

Obviously we can beat this to death but the politicians will still do what they want. Freshmen politicians going to Washington and vowing to "bring this government spending to it's knees" aren't as smart as they think. They don't have a clue what they are doing.
The only choice you have is when you vote.
My resolution is to not vote for anyone in office today at the next elections. I voted independent the last election and frankly I think Alfred E. Newman could do a better job than the clowns there now.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

*What everyone said.* 
IF I can compromise and move forward leaving past crimes, lies and mismanagement why can't we just do that? Time is a finite commodity, wasting it by chewing the fat standing on a bridge with the river running under it is a time waster - just jump off the bridge and swim.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Bush's wars (particularly Iraq) is hard to defend. Though he did go to congress and get authorization.

now we're in Libya helping the French arm the rebels with air drops of weapons.

Obama is spending 300% of what Bush did (which was 300% of Clinton), were in 3 wars now instead of 2.

Perhaps the freshmen Tea Party folks aren't being good politicians….maybe not a bad position.
They do seem to be the only ones standing on principle and not focused on the 2012 election (their own).
I mean what is their personal gain from taking a hard line stand? SUre there is some face time and your name is in the press, but they don't seem to be blatantly buying votes.


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## CampD (Nov 8, 2008)

Amen!! Dr D.

This whole notion of "we've raised the dept ceiling bla Bla times, why can't we do it now" Well if we do not stop it now, when then? (ya ya after the elections, I get it) but I'm afraid its to late.

In reality, Military spending "on new and more modern weapons" is really the only sector of manufacturing that is keeping this economy from totally collapsing.


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

@Roger, you are so correct that blame, finger pointing and trying to determine how we got here and who done it is a waste of time. Stop looking back for the cause that is the answer, cause it ain't.

The defense spending graph above shows that the US by itself spends more than the total military spending of the next largest 15 countries. Assuming we have something (inventory and facilities) to show from all these years of spending we could take a bit of a break and still reign as the only superpower.

Just kidding, but it seems all we really need anymore are replenishment tomahawk missiles and drones to continue the shock and awe.

If you're worried about Lockheed, Raytheon, Grumman, etc., have them building wind turbines and solar collectors instead of half their overpriced orders. It won't happen, so enough about defense.

@Bertha, You remember that old movie Red Dawn ? That could never happen around here. Most of the foreign paratroopers would have been dead meat before they hit the ground. The ones that made it would be found the next morning with a bullet hole (one shot) through both hands and their head (from where they were shielding their eyes from the light shining in their eyes). LOL


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## WayneC (Mar 8, 2007)

I would think that Redjacket Firearms (Sons of Guns cable show) would be enough of a deturrent to keep the US from being invaded.


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

@Wayne..obviously the female doesn't know how to shoot since she just keeps jerking the trigger.
Not a bad show though.


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## WayneC (Mar 8, 2007)

She is Paul's wife from the Discovery channel show where they make choppers. I'm not sure any of those guys know how to shoot.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Now let's be positive. IF the debt ceiling fails and the Gov can't pay it's bills, well that would include the military and to my recall unpaid warriors usually find a way get the right decisions made and put into action asap.
So why not just let the "representatives LOL" do nothing, enjoy our Sunday and let the military solve it all, I'm sure they have bunker busting amo in their arsenal.
Come Tuesday, we can all go visit Al and be safe.
Now for that burger and fries and maybe a nap.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

If Bush really wanted to stop terrorism and had matched on Wall Street instead of Baghdad, we would not be in this mess.

Read Greenspan's Fraud by Rava Batra, professor of economic at SMU. Sources on the Internet are just like anywhere else, only as good as the writer. Too bad the Wall Street Journal was taken over by Rupert Murdoch;-(( Another good one down the tube!! That leaves Morningstar as the only independent financial analyst and news source that I know of in the US.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

*Breaking News on underemployment*.

The government just announced that suddenly there has been a great improvement in new jobs and hires. New data indicates that over the past week just over 1 million new jobs have been filled in the suicide counselling and hotline services.


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

ROFL ^^^


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

That reminds about the job creators we dare not tax; they are creating a lot of new jobs. Too bad they are all in China and India.

It is really guys like me that will hire when this country starts to get its economic engine going again. Too bad I'll probably not live long enough to see it and start hiring ;-(( My son is not into electrical contracting, so he won't be doing it. Wonder who will ??


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Don't worry about it Topa, the whole country will be going green and electricity will be a thing of the past. Wind Power is the future and Washington is working on it - as you will see.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I have been working on line of wind powered wood tools for when the grid goes off.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Topa:
That's the wisdom of an old fart …......... hey thought about using "natural" gas?


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Of course it is a natural gas system. How will you get wind inside the shop ;-)) Hot air out of either end will work equally well.


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

Bush was bad, but Obama makes me wish we had him back (worse for those who do not understand). Where have the true leaders gone??? At this point I want someone who has balanced budgets and made a profit, give me someone who has been out there in the trenches doing the work and not some union hack that has been living off other people.


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## juniorjock (Feb 3, 2008)

I've got to hand it to you guys. To have a thread mostly concerning politics, that has lasted this long with almost 200 posts, and has remained civil is amazing. Probably doesn't mean crap, but all of you have earned my respect.

- JJ


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

*Breaking News*
Just heard that both Republicans and Democrats got very *close* to agreeing on a bill, but due to a navigation error, the* passed* each other.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Until the Rs get off Wanniski's 2 Santa Clauses Theory of economics, the deficit crisis will never end. I hated to see O elected, but he is turning out to be the only president since Carter that may be a decent human being not out just to serve his own selfish interests in the White House. Bush43 told his biographer in 1998 or 1999, he was not gong to waste his presidency like his father did. He was going to invade Iraq, be a war hero with lots of political capital and privatize Social Security. The criminal acts of Bush43 could fill many volumes. Cult followers will follow through the gates of hell just like Jim Jones' followers did before they believe the evidence, facts or reality. It is really too bad the damn Ds are as corrupt as the Rs. Until the people of this country are willing to admit their cult leaders are just as bad and the opposition, nothing will change. ;-((


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## CampD (Nov 8, 2008)

*BREAKING NEWS !!!*
Ahh, I got nuttin.


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## BobTheFish (May 31, 2011)

Topa, the person I wanted most in office was Kucinich. Too bad the only people who know of him or are supportive of him are in Ohio.

I mean virtually no sponsorship from big corporations, he was also the only senator to stand out and criticize his own party (democrats) for the health care bill for practically giving the insurance companies the health care industry, and is pretty solidly aligned with the middle class. His district is extremely loyal to him because of it, and I was happy to hear of his desire to actually put into place a "new deal" style set of programs during the last election.

I voted obama for the same reasons I voted Kerry. Kerry wasn't Bush, and Obama wasn't McCain. (McCain went kind of crazy/nuts with the fear/paranoia thing towards the end of his campaign. He kind of went back to normal after it was over, which makes me suspicious the republicans might have just thrown the election, knowing the sh**storm that was about to happen only a few months later).

Neither of the elections made me "happy" with my choice. It felt too much like choosing the lesser of two evils. (and I hope nobody gives me crap about third party candidates. Ron Paul is REALLY scary, and Nader is pretty much pointless. I'm not some college aged kid whom thinks Anarchy is "cool" or that libertarianism is legitimately possible, and everyone is going to act in a rational, logical fashion).


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Kucinich

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Lmfao


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

What GETS me is "Soc. Sec. is supposed to be to help those who have *PAID INTO IT*... at least just a little bit… and, when old enough *and qualified*, receive a payment *based on what you PAID IN.*

*Soc. Sec. IS NOT supposed to be used as WELFARE to anyone that has NOT PAID INTO the system!*

If we would just STOP PAYING OUT what does NOT have to be Paid Out, IT WOULD SAVE ALL KINDS OF MONEY!

Why don't THEY, our smart Government, SEE THIS?!

We are just plain SICK in the HEAD in Washington DC!

Funny… I just received an email that was about an

*EX Sailor writing To the Editor of his local paper:*

*"I take exception to the fact that our Government is said to be spending money like a drunken Sailor!
When I was a Sailor, I stopped buying drinks when I ran out of money!"*


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

*David Grimes*:

Art (Laffer) was on the BoD of my last company, so … I saw him almost frequently. My CEO asked me to "refrain," and-out of respect-I did.

I still have the holes in my lip, from biting into it ;-)


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

"We need to bring back capitalism….try to name one segment of our economy that has not been regulated since the 1960's?"

But that's an "all or nothing" argument. It's not a binary state, where they're either regulated or they're not.

It's about the RIGHT regulations, competent oversight, and effective enforcement mechanisms.

I've been a VP of a few different NYSE-traded corporations, and-though I did NOT consider them horribly unethical, or among the worst of the worst-what I always DID see is that they were ALL (as were all of my corporate colleagues' companies) wishing for exactly what Steve Gass (SawStop) is TRYING for: legislation that grants him a monopoly.

The notion that corporations are a beneficent force for good in this world is rather naive. That doesn't mean they're all universally evil, either.

What it does mean, IMHO, is that we STILL LIVE "Lord of the Flies," and need fair rules to ensure that those who CAN ... do not rob blind … those who cannot (pretty much what's happening now, to most of us, I'd say).

Where those lines are drawn is fair fodder for endless debate 

And-in anticipation of the "S" word coming out-the government level of ownership of the means of production in this country is so low as to be nearly negligible.

We're capitalists, through and through.

I forgot who said it, but … I love it … "I love capitalism. It's the capitalists I can't stand."

;-)


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

*Topa* wrote:

"It is really too bad the damn Ds are as corrupt as the Rs. Until the people of this country are willing to admit their cult leaders are just as bad and the opposition, nothing will change. ;-(("

Wait. We have TWO parties ??

How can you tell them apart ???

Oh. Wait.

Redistribution of wealth.

One tends to push it upward; the other, downward.

Both are bought and paid for my largely the same masters-equivalent if not equal.

I, too, think that blind partisanship is Nero fiddling while Rome burns, and have forever been a registered Non-Partisan. Don't get to vote in primaries, but … it's never cost me any sleep ;-)


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

@NBeener, I have nothing but respect for Mr. Laffer and his curve. I have naturally tended to use his type of "logic" most of my life (abstract / exaggerate to both (or more) possible opposite ends, then work back towards the middle to find the possible outcome. I take the Laffer curve as fact when applied as he applied it.

Unfortunately, at that time the "option" to move the cheese to China and use the capital overseas was nowhere near so much in the equation. Keep in mind that there was great loss in taxes (and jobs) when North American capital that would have been profit and taxed was instead used to facilitate production overseas, therefore losing jobs + decreasing taxable profit + leaving their remaining US divisions with all the legacy costs (pensions, union contracts, etc.) while the money they made for the company was diverted elsewhere. All legal.


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## devann (Jan 11, 2011)

"Congress is out of touch". I believe that Washington D.C. has been out of touch with most Americans for quite a while. The unbridled spending of recent years buy both parties and houses of Congress, Then we had a Congress that wouldn't even propose a budget for two years and the government continued to operate has if it had all the money in the world to spend. But then again the Federal government did have all the money they could want, they were printing it out of thin air. The Congressional members managed to put together a budget only after an election, meanwhile we wait and we wait some more for the members of the Senate to make a move.

This coupled with the uncontested "end around Congress maneuvers" creating new Federal government positions by the executive branch at record levels have added more to our national debt than all of the preceding US politicians that held office before them combined.

It appears that for this country to resolve it's debt problems "We the people" are going to have to elect officials that will vote with a fiscal mindset has well as well as a compassionate heart. I for one support the idea that the Federal government learn to spend within it's means as do most of the rest of us. The politicians that do not support a balanced budget amendment are the same politicians that continue to flame the class warfare rhetoric and support having one set of rules for themselves and another set of rules for the rest of us.

Just my 2¢


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Neil, depends on how many issues you care to look at. Too many of us, U.S., are single issue voters. There are big differences between R & D. Fortunately, it is the 20% of solid middle ground independents that make the decisions ;-))

I feel sorry for you having to tolerate a clown like Laugher (the spelling I prefer). Guess I have been spoiled most of my career. I have had bosses and customers that do what I want when push comes to shove. If they didn't, they knew I would take my customers and work for their competition or after I started business, they knew I would do their competition's work and they would be stuck with mine ;-)) Very enviable position, I have been very blessed to be in it and not have to put up with a lot of BS in my working career.

BobTheFish, It is too bad good people do not make it to the top. They have to sell their souls to the wicked and evil who control the purse strings to make it over the hump. The Senator from Vermont would be a good one, Bernie Saunders. He is independent, too good for either party.

People can argue economics and politics all they want, but the results of post WWII are hard to argue with and ignore. Right now, Brazil is doing exactly what we, U.S., did then. They may soon be the powerhouse of the western hemisphere and China will be the powerhouse of the east, not through their on innovations, but through what the old US corporations, now multinationals without any allegiance to anyone but the Almighty Dollar, gave them.

Thom Hartman had an interesting comment about why they have to pay CEOs so much these days. There really may be intense competition for those who run these companies. Only a sociopath could do what they do and still be able to sleep at night. Only 1% of the population are sociopaths. Of that small population, there can't be very many with the ability to run a multinational corp.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

But Topa, what do the republicans do. I recognize the 2 Santa Claus' that took hold around Nixon's election when the R's recognized that with the likes of Johnson, they were essentially running against Santa Claus - the Democrats since JFK had gone to the outright buying of votes through entitlements.
The Repubs recognized that they had to start playing teh democrats game.

CHallenge becomes - if the Repubs abolish the insane spending on special interests - they cannot get elected. Just as the dems do.

Sick watching the news tonight (FoX and CNN and MSLSD) and all are talking heads and their "expert" guests, are wringing their hands discussing who won and who lost in making the deal….to hell with the country - who played this hand of poker better.
Almost thing it would have been better if 9/11 had hit the capital instead of the trade center and given us a chance to clean house.


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

Capital goes where it is best preserved and can grow. Right now that is not the US, it is the pacific rim, and yes there is a bubble there that will burst because the profits are not there. The unfortunate thing is we are now in a new recession and we have few option to use to climb out. This will be slow and painful, welcome to the 1930's


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

A Priest was being honored at his retirement dinner after 25 years in the parish. A leading local politician and member of the congregation was chosen to make the presentation and to give a little speech at the dinner. However, he was delayed, so the Priest decided to say his own few words while they waited:

'I got my first impression of the parish from the first confession I heard here. I thought I had been assigned to a terrible place. The very first person who entered my confessional told me he had stolen a television set and, when questioned by the police, was able to lie his way out of it. He had stolen money from his parents, embezzled from his employer, had an affair with his boss's wife, he had taken illegal drugs and gave VD to his girlfriend. I was appalled. But as the days went on, I learned that my people were not all like that and I had, indeed, come to a fine parish full of good and loving people.'

Just as the Priest finished his talk, the politician arrived full of apologies at being late. He immediately began to make the presentation and gave his talk: "I'll never forget the first day our parish Priest arrived," said the politician. "In fact, I had the honor of being the first person to go to him for confession."

Moral: Never, Never, Never Be Late


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Unfortunately, that is not a joke and it is typical of the average Congressman and Senator ;-((


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## BobTheFish (May 31, 2011)

Topa,

You know, I didn't think I'd be commenting yet again under this topic, but the tangents are probably more interesting than the subject itself.

Today I was talking with a gentleman whom seemed quite convinced that "the elite" (his own term) were trying to own everything, and enslave the rest of the world under one global government. A bit too much like the left wing version of a conservative conspiracy theorist to me, but he did bring up a few good points, and yet, through it all, I cannot sit back and believe it is all truly a conscious effort to destroy the world. Although a few of the top corporate CEO's, presidents, and even our elected officials may be sociopathic, I believe much more strongly towards ignorance and egotism.

It's a lot easier to swallow that they do not fully realize the almighty hell that they unleash, or how many people they might cause to suffer. Perhaps they do not actually torture individuals or small animals in their basements for their own delights, but they do not think too much of it when they skim a few dollars off the top of each person. They see great personal profit at a small individual expense, without seeing long term problems. And the egotism prevents them from caring much of what harm it might cause others long term, as long as, short term, the profits are too good to pass up.

It's a very human failing, after all.

It's also the reason I get so very frustrated and angry at my fellow man. If people understood the full weight of their actions upon others, the world simply would not be as it is now… Though, perhaps, that weight might be so crushingly heavy that humankind would be left unable to make the immense progress it so typically does.

Another thing to consider is that anything held via power, rather than love, is rarely held for long. (actually, that's paraphrasing an ancient roman proverb I learned in high school….)

Think of all the times something has been sought to be controlled and kept from the people. From preventing counterfeiting, to information control, to DRM technology…. As soon as a new method or wall is built, someone comes along and in a few months, has knocked it down. Nations that become too militaristic, or start waging war upon its lower classes are apt to fall. 1984 will never happen. Not only is there so much data that is already collected on the population that it is impossible to really sift through it all, but the amount of power necessary to enforce such a rule would have to be a magnitude greater than those they rule over… an impossibility. For every law, there would be someone, somewhere, breaking it and getting away with it.

The problem, instead, is not what to do to prevent this impending fall of the US, but what to do to deconstruct it, to shelter our citizens from the worst of it, and how to preserve what's best about it in order that we might be able to start construction again from its ashes….

What's so horrible about the extremists to the right (the libertarians, the tea partiers, the "free market capitalists" ), is not so much that they want to dismantle what isn't working, but the rough and slipshod method by which they wish to do so: "X isn't working, so we should do away with the whole lot of it!" "My freedoms are impeded by the law, so we should do away with law!" "There's no jobs because we have regulations, we should do away with regulations!"..... It all is reactionary without any thought to the consequences of what's being dismantled.

As people who build things, and as people who should understand craftsmanship and proper construction require both thought and time, you might think some of the views here would reflect more understand how, government, like with a good dovetail joint, you don't just hack away at it, but carefully carve away to make properly joined parts.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

BobTheFish, I agree with you generally. If there was a grand conspiracy to create a one world order, I doubt if they could get it together and pull it off. There are definitely long term strategies. The Koch brother's old man was thrown out of the Republican Party by W.F. Buckley in the late 50s or 60s. He was basically a radical John Bircher. They have been on a 40 years campaign that has swung the U.S. so far right, Eisenhower and Nixon would be Democrats today. I believe these bastards believe they were chosen by God to run the world. Their wealth is proof of that no mater how they got it. Donald Trump is a perfect example of this type of person. Inherited millions and is the only person to ever go bankrupt in the casino business ;-)) He'll never really run for prez because he doesn't want the fact that he is a bankrupt fraud exposed.

I used to wonder what the R's were trying to do until I found out about Wanniski's 2 Santa Clauses strategy; ie, spend like a drunken sailor (no offence to sailors intended) when in the White House and scream bloody murder about the D's doing the spending when out of the White House. Laffer came up with Supply Side Economics that Regan put in place. I'm just a farm kid who became and electrician, no college degree or in depth economics studies, but if I can figure out this is BS, they have to know. I don't believe they can be that stupid!! Even my dad who had an 8th grade education knew they were nuts.

When I was a local officer in the R party, I was thoroughly disgusted by the level of ethics most of the participants exhibited. When voting, I always wondered why I had to make a choice between my economic interests, the Ds and my Constitutional Rights, the 2nd amendment and crime control, the Rs? I always hated the Ds for wanting to have all the criminals on the street when I was carrying a 12 ga shotgun on patrol to keep my tools so I could to go to work the next day. King County Police was a totally worthless, impotent organization requiring multi-year calendar to a track response time if they ever did show.

In 1994, in WA's 3rd Congressional District in SW WA, there were a couple of guys named Phillips and Moyer running for the R Congressional nominaton in the primary. WA didn't have caucuses then, just an open primary. One of them, I believe Moyer was exposed by the other guy as a tax cheat not reporting thousands he had collected in WA sales tax or something to that effect. That PO'd all the R's that he had exposed his opponent. Linda Smith, a popular state legislator from the area stunned everyone by running a 3 week write in campaign winning the nomination and eventually the Congressional seat. During this process at the district meeting, we were TOLD to support the scoundrel. I said the "scumbag" belonged in prison, not Congress. They told me he may be a "scumbag, but he is "our scumbag" and we have to support him. That is what is wrong with the entire system, zero ethics!

After talking to literally thousands of people about politics, economics, labor issues, ect, I have concluded the level of ignorance about the history, lack of consideration long term effects of decisions, and even the ability to understand those relationships and interconnection is near "0" in the populace. I'm not sure what the problem is, but when I was talking with various doctors during my Topamax overdose episode, I have concluded it is a basic intelligence issue. I do not believe there are very many people out there who are capable of taking all the subject matter of a modern society, it's history, consider various possibilities and the consequences of actions and are able to comprehend the results. The reason I came to that conclusion is the doctors I conversed with were definite;y in the top tier in intelligence of society. Many times they would say that is not germane when it was basic to the issues.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*have added more to our national debt than all of the preceding US politicians that held office before them combined.* Darrel, that simply is not true. In 1980, the debt was less than 1 trillion. Since then, we have had 20 years of Rs in the White House, 8 years of Clinton who balanced and started paying down. 1 year of Obama who was stuck with the budget left by Bush 43 and 1 year of his own. They have been spending like drunken sailors and blaming the only D they could, Obama in the last couple of years. Those doing the crying the loudest are the ones who ran up the deficit.

*DrDirt* They have to use the 2 Santa theory. They knew they could not win while milking the middle class dry. Without gun totin', beer drinkin', Bible thumbin', gay bashin', NASCAR fans all whipped up, the Rs would not have won the White House period. Regan had to make a deal with the Iranian hostage takers to get in. Bush43 had to have the Supreme court tell FL to stop counting ballots to get in. Nearly every legal scholar in the country thinks that is a joke. The Supreme Court has proven beyond the shadow of a doubt they are politicioans, not judges.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*Capital goes where it is best preserved and can grow.* If we had a reasonable trade policy, that would change very quickly.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Yeah Topa - I get the resullt - but there would have been a 2 santa…without the first santa leading the way.

Koch brothers are indeed buying influence
Gosh the Republican party thought Grandpa was a John Bircher

How about George SOros, the owner of the Democratic party.
He actually worked for the Nazis identifying which properties and families were jewish and jewish owned.

On September 16, 1992, Black Wednesday, Soros's fund sold short more than $10 billion worth of pounds,[27] profiting from the UK government's reluctance to either raise its interest rates to levels comparable to those of other European Exchange Rate Mechanism countries or to float its currency.

He orchestrated the 1997 asian market crash and still haas warrants for his arrest.

Now he has his book with former Fed chair Volker writing the forward.

SO Kochs Father is ACCUSED of being a bircher…which isn't a crime

or Soros - owner of Move-on.org and admitted Nazi collaborator who crashed two foreign markets….running the democratic machine.

I don't love either - but I chose the accused Bircher, over the Nazi

Man…."Reagan made a deal with the Iranians to get into office" cant just take that one at face value, that has to be from a really obscure source.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

This is a statement made by someone who is clearly irrational, delusional and at the supreme pinnacle of ignorance:

*Without gun totin', beer drinkin', Bible thumbin', gay bashin', NASCAR fans all whipped up, the Rs would not have won the White House period*.

and it is Reagan, not Regan.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Actually it was Ronnie Rayguns… But the rest sounds right. ;-)


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

*It is refreshing to see such diverse points of view traded so openly without flaming and rants of the nearly insane.*

I take it back. ;=)


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

The stupidity is no longer entertaining.

The next thing is someone will refer to Tea Party members as terrorist.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Well I don't like Joe Biden because he's white… ;-)


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

DrDirt:
REALLY? He always looks tanned to me.


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

Depends on who he's standing next to. (That light contrast f-stop thing, you know) ;=)


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

I wish the F would Stop, it's the all over red eye that needs fixing


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

"Without gun totin', beer drinkin', Bible thumbin', gay bashin', NASCAR fans all whipped up, the Rs would not have won the White House period" and ordinary average people who pay taxes and don't believe the freak in society should be elevated.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I'm not quite sure how being a Jewish kid in Nazi Hungary during WWII makes Soros a Nazi? I really don't know much about him other than he is said to be helping the D party and opposed to R. I don't know anything about his arrest warrants. I'm sure they are not much worse than Cheney's arrest warrants while serving as VP of the USA!! ;-))

Do you really think the party of corporate interests pushing monopoly capitalism could win an election without social issue voters: the gun totin', beer drinkin', Bible thumbin', gay bashin', NASCAR fans. A bit flamboyant maybe, but clearly rational and factual. Remember, I analyzed this from the inside looking about, not as a liberal criticizing while looking in.

Regan, Reagan, what every you want to call him, was in the news with IRAN CONTRA for years. Anyone who missed it must have been asleep. You do not remember the hostages being released within minutes of Regan being sworn in?

I am not a D or liberal defending their corrupt, wicked and evil ways anymore than I am a R anymore helping them pursue their corrupt, wicked, evil agenda. That is just the way of politicians of the last 30 years have degraded. Before that, they were at least somewhat civil. I have presented facts that are easily verifiable. I am not interested in arguing about them. Facts are facts. I am certainly not gong to defend Ds that are as bad as the Rs. The BS on Fox, CNN, MSNBC, ect is not worth the power to run the boob tube.

Until the people of this country are willing to admit both parties are corrupted by their corporate sponsors and the 7 kings in black robes have hermetically sealed those sponsorships as a permanent part of the American political scene, things will get much worse before they start to get better.

I can only pray masses of desperate people do not resort to civil unrest before this country gets turned back around. Balancing the budget on widow's pensions and SS while continuing to financially support some of the most profitable corps in the world and maintaining a global Roman empire is what is irrational, disgusting, and insane and is most likely criminal if all the facts were known.

I pretty much figured out and predicted this economic disaster for myself. If you want to learn a few facts about our economic mess, read "Greenspan's Fraud" by Rava Batra, professor of economics at SMU. He filled in a few facts I didn't know and cemented the deal.


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## devann (Jan 11, 2011)

*have added more to our national debt than all of the preceding US politicians that held office before them combined*

You're right Bob, I got in a hurry and left out a couple key words, *My mistake.* Here's what I meant to write.

*This coupled with the uncontested "end around Congress maneuvers" creating new Federal government positions by the executive branch at record levels that at the current pace will have added more to our national debt than all of the preceding US politicians that held office before them combined.*

Bob, your comments about Clinton are not factually correct ether. The Congress sets the amount of spending, the President only approves it. The President can suggest a budget but it doesn't mean that Congress will adopt it. Bill Clinton signed off on a budget set to him by a Republican controlled Congress. That's where the budget achieved balance. He could have vetoed it, but he had people working for him smart enough to take it knowing that an election was pending. And Clinton wanted to be re-elected.

Obama was left with a budget from G W Bush and G W in my opinion should have vetoed it, but it was put forth by a Democrat controlled House of Congress and Senate. Remember the Democrats won both houses in '08. Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid are without a doubt two of the all time big spenders in D.C. and Obama has been signing off on it for two years now. As far as the current desire for spending goes this administration appears to have their foot on the accelerator going WFO.

Only a Congress with some fiscal backbone will save us from a big spending, big Federal Government that seems to have forgotten that The Federal Government get it's powers from the States as granted to it by the Constitution.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

That is technically true, but until recently, the Congress has pretty much rubber stamped the president's spending agenda after a bit of posturing. This current mess is the exception. Every president in recent memory has expanded the power of the office.

What they are doing what the debt limit, it is all BS. All they did was agree to put it all off for the next Congress to deal with after the 2012 election. Even if they go through with it, the cuts will amount to such a pittance it is rather pointless. Until the global empire and corp subsidies are on the table, we are screwed. Unless there is fair trade policies put in place real quick, 25% unemployment will be permanent. The official figure will be about 5 % shortly because of all the people who have run out of benefits do not count anymore!! With unemployment that high, teh top 10% will have to start paying more because too many will drop off when they have no income!!

Unfortunately, the Feds have been illegally seizing power since the Civil War!! This country is rapidly becoming exactly what we rebelled against 235 yrs ago ;-(


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Do you think the party of socialism could win without the tree huggin', Birkenstock wearin', gay marryin', tofu eatin', ACLU supportin, global warming alarmin' NPR listenin', wealth redistributin, gun confiscatin', atheist believen liberal pinheads do you? Just another similar "fact" being given here.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

RockyTopScott SAID: "Do you think the party of socialism could win without the tree huggin', Birkenstock wearin', gay marryin', tofu eatin', ACLU supportin, global warming alarmin' NPR listenin', wealth redistributin, gun confiscatin', atheist believen liberal pinheads do you? "

Hey Topa your facts won! The "Rs" have been reduced to babbling…


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

If one does not think Topa is babbling, then your dust mask is on way too tight and you are oxygen deprived.


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## lwllms (Jun 1, 2009)

What Congress has been struggling with is solving a problem. To solve a problem, first one must understand the problem and its causes. Here are two charts, compiled using Congressional Budget Office and Office of Management and Budget figures. I assume these figures are dependable since both Boehner and Reid reworked their budget proposals to get them to reconcile with CBO and OMB projections.



















A note on the second chart from where I got it:
UPDATE: Many people have written to ask how the impact of the "Bush-era tax cuts," enacted under George W. Bush and extended under Barack Obama (with the help, as you will recall, of huge pressure from Senate Republicans), is divided between the two presidents. I don't know and have written the creators of the chart to ask. (They have responded to say: it indicates the legacy effects of the changes made by each Administration. For instance, neither Bush nor Obama is credited with the entire cost of Pentagon spending or entitlements, but only the changes his Administration made, up or down. By this logic the long-run effect of tax cuts initiated by Bush is assigned to him, as any long-run effect of savings he initiated would be too.)


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

Ezra Klein is not a reliable source, very biased.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

Only if his facts are wrong.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Good chart lwllms. I misposted previously. I believe said Obama saved 1.25 Trillion, it should have been Billion.

RockyTop, The tree huggin', gun grabbin', pro crime, bureaucracy buildin' crowd are definitely the base of the Ds . Their agenda certainly pushes many to the other side to vote against their own best economic interests. The bottom line being these social issues are what keeps 80% of electorate locked down in ignorant bliss.

I certainly wonder why a guy struggling to make $40,000/yr., having had his wages cut in half after inflation during the last 30 years of union busting, tricking down and inflation is so adamant about not taxing those who are sending his job to China and the criminals who have crashed the economy during their greedy feeding frenzy?


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

lwllms, do you have one of those charts showing the deficit builders from the 50s or 60s to the present?


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Gad Ezra Klein….why don't we use the graph Bawney Frank makes…

From that right wing rag the washington post (LOL) fact checker -
Bush tax cuts:
Over the 10-year period, the overall size of the tax cut dropped about 5 percent, or $65 billion, to $1.285 trillion. Some people might call that a rounding error in the context of a ten-year federal budget.

I mention this because over 10 years that is 130Billion a year.
Ezras graph starts at 350Billion growing to 700Billion a year in 2019. 
so (A) his numbers are a fabrication (b) they SHOULD have ended in 2011, when the DEMOCRATIC house the DEMOCRATIC Senate and the DEMOCRATIC president extended them during the lame duck session.
Don't blame the R's for this the D's did that during the lame duck session - and as far as I know the cuts were NOT extended to 2020.

Hence Ezra Klein is FOS.

You should read aout teh D Hero Soros sometime

According to the Ottawa Sun, George Soros as a teenager (then a Jew himself) collaborated with the Nazis. According to the article Soros worked for the Judenrat. That was the Jewish council set up by the Nazis responsible for rounding up Jews every day for the trains. Soros's father named Theodore bribed a non-Jewish official at the agriculture ministry to let George Soros live with him. The younger Soros then helped the agriculture ministry official confiscate property from the Jews. What Soros basically did was collaborate with the Nazis and turned on other Jews to spare himself.

Steve Kroft of 60 Minutes asked him that. Was it difficult? "Not at all," Soros answered.

"No feeling of guilt?" asked Kroft. "No," said Soros. "There was no sense that I shouldn't be there. If I wasn't doing it, somebody else would be taking it away anyhow. Whether I was there or not. So I had no sense of guilt."

the guy is just salt of the earth!

Cant defend all that Halliburton may be involved in.. just don't know. But what *outstanding* warrant for Cheney are you talking about. And Cheney is pretty irrelevant compared to Soros and Koch Brothers, so not sure why you bring him up anyway. I was focusing on who the financial drivers are (D and R) Today

By the way there are 9 kings in black robes not 7 (thats where all those 5:4 decisions come from)


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

Do you ever wonder why a guy making 25k-40k per year pays more in taxes than in the 1950's, or 1980's? Do you ever wonder why you even work at all because if you just quit working you could get rewarded with food stamps, free housing, and at least $4500 in tax refunds? So why work at all? I'll just quit working and let my fellow sawdust creators pay my way!!


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

For every dollar taxed it takes $1.35 out of the economy. For every dollar the federal government borrows it takes $14 dollars out of the world market.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

*TopaMaxSurvivor said: I certainly wonder why a guy struggling to make $40,000/yr., having had his wages cut in half after inflation during the last 30 years of union busting, tricking down and inflation is so adamant about not taxing those who are sending his job to China and the criminals who have crashed the economy during their greedy feeding frenzy.*

I guess the reason I may look at thing differently is because I do not look at the problem (I affirm it is a problem) the same way you do. I don't let the actions (greed) of others deter me or view it as the reason I am where I am in life…as life to me is not a zero sum game. I get what I get by my efforts and don't look at someone else and say they have a piece of my pie. I prefer to get my own pie.

Yes, their actions may create challenges, but because I don't make a million bucks a year I don't percieive this fact because others that do make a million bucks a year have taken something from me. I don't let my lot in life be determined by the government.

I could not be in a union because I would not want someone else negotiating my worth as a person and limiting me to making what they negotiated for me. I am in sales and If I don't perfrom, my family does not eat. I would not have it any other way.


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## lwllms (Jun 1, 2009)

Bob,

Is this similar to what you're looking for?


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Sorry about the miscount on the kings of the US. Probably just wishful thinking.

Just casually mentioning people in high places with international arrest warrants on them. Cheney had an arrest warrant for bribery in Nicaragua for misdeeds during his tenure as CEO of Halliburton. About the time he left office, VP of USA, Halliburton settled it for him by bribing more Nicaraguan officials to make it go away ;-))

If Soros was on 60 Minutes, I am surprised I missed it. I must have been out at the Tree Farm forgetting about all this BS ;-))

I wouldn't call the VP irrelevant. Cheney has been involved in White House underground activity since he was a very young man.

*Do you ever wonder why a guy making 25k-40k per year pays more in taxes than in the 1950's, or 1980's?* I know why. The FICA and Medicare Insurance deductions that Regan doubled to "save" SS then moved to the general fund to hide the amount of his deficits from the public.

*Do you ever wonder why you even work at all because if you just quit working you could get rewarded with food stamps, free housing, and at least $4500 in tax refunds?* SD must be a very generous state. Nobody gets that kind of money for dong nothing in WA. I have wondered why a lot of people go to work everyday. I have been very fortunate, had a good job and business all my life. Hells bells, I even paid more taxes in a year than most people make. Michael Medved even told me I'm in the league of people I think should be paying our way because of the benefits received by gov't provided services; interstate highway system to pull my 5ht wheel using $5/ gallon diesel, ……

One day I was going to do some controls in one of the hospitals on Pill Hill in Seattle. I had to pas through surgery. The orderlies were preparing for the days activities before the patients, doctors or even the nurses showed up. I really had to admire those people going to such mundane, menial, low pay job every day, day after day and cleaning up the bloody mess when the operations were over. If there is such an easy life on the high benefit dole, wonder why anyone does those jobs?


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Yeah, thanks ;-))


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

RockyTopScott, I do not view things that way at all. I should be one of them ;-)) I am throughly disgusted by the greedy causing so much misery and most of it by unprosecuted criminal activity. Or, at least what was criminal activity before they bought the gov't, prosecutors and judges. Many legal scholars are thoroughly disgusted by the Supreme court. Many believe several of them should be impeached for blatant ethical violations. There is very little reason to respect that court any more. We are definitely not a nation of laws. We are a nation of predators and prey.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

Just after Obama signed the bill to increase the Debt Limit, he said something to the effect…

*"And we are ALL trying to spend within our means"...*

What a JOKE!

What have they been fighting for all this time?!

*To INCREASE the Debt Limit!*

That is* NOT* living within our means… *It is OBVIOUSLY living way beyond our means!*

*In the Business world, headed for bankruptcy!
... all China has to do is say NO!*


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

China is screwed, they don't dare say no ;-)) They wouldn't really lose anyway. We gave them the money they are lending back to us, U.S.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

... and *IF* they decide NOT to lend us anymore money…

Then what?


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Topa -
Your FICA is a bit off -

Wiki:

To combat the declining financial outlook, in *1977* Congress passed and Carter signed legislation fixing the double-indexing mistake. This amendment also altered the tax formulas to raise more money,[49] increasing withholding from 2% to 6.15%.[50] With these changes, President Carter remarked, "Now this legislation will guarantee that from 1980 to the year 2030, the Social Security funds will be sound."[51].

This 6.2% was still in effect until January of This year, when for 'Stimulus 2' we started a FICA holiday dropping the rate to 4.2%.
Regan did in 1983 begin taxing the SS benefits of High earners - - - but it was Jimmy Cah-Tugh that tripled the SS deductions not Reagan.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

There are plenty of people who are getting anxious about buying our debt. In the first place, when the government paper pays hardly any interest at all it's not worth the increased risk. Obviously, when gold is over 1600 then that's where a lot of people feel safer because a lot of people are putting their money there.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

The political Piling on begins - - from Russia:

Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin accused the United States Monday of living beyond its means "like a parasite" on the global economy and said dollar dominance was a threat to the financial markets.

"They are living beyond their means and shifting a part of the weight of their problems to the world economy," Putin told the pro-Kremlin youth group Nashi while touring its lakeside summer camp some five hours drive north of Moscow.
Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/01/us-russia-putin-usa-idUSTRE77052R20110801#ixzz1Ttx2sG4G

Even now that the debt ceiling deal is done and disaster avoided - we continue to watch the DOW fall 202 so far today.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

Part of the problem with the increasing debt the government will have to raise interest rates in order to attract the number of people needed to purchase the debt. This will be a vicious circle because then the interest on the federal debt will be higher and consequently our debt will also rise the more because of it. Try all you can you just can't escape the consequences of the laws of economics.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

Gold & Silver prices are where they're at because of the lower and LOWER value of the Dollar…

The more we borrow, the cheaper the dollar becomes, and the higher Gold & Silver will go in US$.
The cheaper the US$ goes, other countries will NOT want to loan us more of them.

As the dollar goes lower and lower to almost nothing… it would be better to sell Gold & Silver for another currency… (whatever that turns out to be).

It will be a very SAD day…


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Joe:
(Re: Alternate currency") Let's just hope and pray it is sawdust.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

The higher the interest rates go the more drag on the economy because of the interest rates. Another drag is always that the government is continually borrowing an ever increasing amount. This means the government is competing for this money with small and medium businesses. Small and medium businesses will also be hurt by the higher interest rates. What little recovery that we have will be stifled somewhat because of these things and this will in turn increase many funds that are paid out by government because of the recession and will also diminish somewhat the revenue that is taken in by government. Increasing our debt just is not good - especially in a recession.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

Roger Clark:

*"Joe: (Re: Alternate currency") Let's just hope and pray it is sawdust."*

Beautiful!


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

Joe you are right about that. Inflation is caused primarily in an increase in the money supply - printing money is a common phrase, monetizing the debt, quantitative easing, qe1, qe2 - it's all a devaluation of our money. Since 1913 over 95% of the 1913 dollar's purchasing power has been inflated away. Inflation is just a hidden tax that every American pays. Those who are hit the hardest are the middle and lower classes and the elderly who live on fixed incomes. Inflation is much worse right now than what the government is saying. Another problem is that the banks are not lending like they should so a lot of money the FED has created is locked up in the banking system. However, when and if the banking system starts lending much more inflation will be created because some money is created through the processes of fractional reserve banking. All of this debt we are piling up with no end in site will have grave consequences in my humble opinion.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

*Joe* and *Roger*, I could use some more sawdust along about now. I've always believed that sawdust has never received it's fair share of respect. ;-[


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## CampD (Nov 8, 2008)

"Let's just hope and pray it is sawdust".

I'm Rich!!! I'm rich!!! I gots bags of the stuff and its all mine!


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

*Camp*, I suppose we'll start carrying it around in those little tobacco pouches the forty niners carried their gold in. Won't that be a site for sore eyes? ;-|


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

Good idea!

I have to start compressing all of my sawdust! (so I can save more).

They only problem is that the WOOD it comes from will be so high in price, I won't be able to afford to BUY it! 

I was thinking of getting some Walnut… enough for two Maloof inspired Dining Chairs… Gotta get it before the prices rises too far…

Then, I will be able to make some really GOOD sawdust… for my bank!!


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

Good thinking, *Joe*. Yeah, we can start compressing it into bricks. If we cain't have gold bricks then by damn we can sure have sawdust bricks. ;-|


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*DrDirt* You are right and I am corrected, the rate was raised in the late 70s in an effort to keep SS solvent so us Baby-Boomers would be funding our own retirement. Ronnie took the money and moved it into the general fund to cover up his ballooning deficits. Now the Rs want to take that money and use it for Corporate Welfare Programs supporting the Exxon, BP, and their ilk while leaving widows sick, cold and hungry on the street.

*and IF they decide NOT to lend us anymore money* The Fed will step in and inject cash into the Treasury stopping the problem in the short term, causing more inflation in the long term and probably devaluing the dollar to the level of the Peso or Yen.

This is the same thing that would have happened if the debt limit has not been raised today. If Obama had not raised it on his own through an executive order, the Fed would have injected cash into the Treasury. A lot of Ds wanted Obama to tell the Rs to get screwed and do it. I think it is to his credit that he did not grab more power for the executive branch and do it. The Rs in the House would most certainly impeached him and the Senate would have excused him. The people would have been PO and more divided than ever.

*Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin accused the United States Monday of living beyond its means "like a parasite" on the global economy* So what?? Russia should know. They did such a marvelous job of building an economy and country. They had to fence in their people to keep them there. None of the ones I know in the Seattle area would ever go back. Tell Putin to go (you fill in the blank) himself!!


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

Ok time to call you out…. Liberals have been playing this class warfare stuff years and there is never any truth to it.

SO SHOW US THE REPUBLICANS/ THE BILL THAT THEY ARE "Now the Rs want to take that money and use it for Corporate Welfare Programs supporting the Exxon, BP, and their ilk while leaving widows sick, cold and hungry on the street." I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW OR ARE YOU JUST TRYING TO SMEAR REPUBLICANS?


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Problem is the Russians have also been buying our debt (So far)
An Indian engineer that worksin my group has a nice proverb - that "when the elephant is stuck in the mud, even the frog will piss on him as he hops by" 
So sure, we dug ouselves a deep hole and others are relishing watching us squirm.
Of course those same countries are actually pursuing austerity measures, while we just project smaller increases in spending, but cut nothing.
Fact is we are slated (our baseline) for government to continue to grow at 8%/year. So compounding we will have a 70% larger goverment in 2016


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

"Ok time to call you out…. Liberals have been playing this class warfare stuff years and there is never any truth to it."

Another partisan statement.

Class warfare works both ways.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

BTW, I am or was a Republican until W screwed me over so bad! That was about all I could take. It is very difficult to research and discover how disgusting those I believed in and supported all my life really were.

REgan, and I voted for him 2x, started class warfare along with the Business Round Table who staged an artificial recession in construction to break the trade unions. They have been very successful. The middle class has lost 50% of their inflation adjusted income since 1980.

For instance, on corporate welfare; the oil companies are getting oil depletion allowances that are worth billons in tax deductions every year when they are the most profitable companies in the history of world. Look at the subsidies the agri-corps are getting. Those were designed to keep the family farms in business when there were family farms. Conagra hardly needs a helping hand out. Those are just 2 off the top of my head.

The reason the tax code is too thick for anyone to read is they buy their own representative to go to Congress to put in their own tax relief section and support payments. Mussolini fired the elected representatives of parliament and the largest corp in each district sent the replacements. We have the same fascist style government now, but instead of sending an employee of the company, they buy one.

Sorry, I can't recall the details like I used to be able to pre-Topamax. I have permanent confusion and short term memory issues. You can listen to people like Thom Hartman or Norman Goldman with an open mind. I listen to them when I am working and to Michael Medved. Unlike the babbling BSers like Rush the Windbag or Beck, they actually present facts instead of endless propaganda. You can make up your own mind.


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## lwllms (Jun 1, 2009)

"Ok time to call you out…. Liberals have been playing this class warfare stuff years and there is never any truth to it…"

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#43996720


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

Topa …. get your facts straight. Class warfare in politics started in 1968 with the likes of Kennedy(Robert) and Walllace who used them in different ways. It was NOT used by Reagan, but used against Reagan by Tip O'neil and Bensen (and democrats). Class Warfare has been the the key strategy in the Democrat/liberal/progressive playbook since Robert Kennedy's tour of Misissippi in 1967. Henry Wallace tried to use it, but we don't know of a president Wallace. One of the largest perveyors of class warfare has been Jesse Jackson, and has been used in every presidential race against republicans since 1972 starting with Mcgovern.

So next time don't copy down the MoveOn.org talking points and try to portray them as facts, Next you will say that Reagen raised taxes, was a liberal and lost the cold war.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

Yankto… (shhhh… never can tell what might be believed… shh…)  

Remember what that one guy said… not too long before he quit with his hand in the cookie jar…
... Reed Reid or ?? is on the tip of my tongue…

*"We are here to hep you!"*

I'm glad he was caught… using Government postage for his new Book… or something…


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

Boy, I'll bet both Republicans and Democrats are licking their chops to get their hands on the 2.4 Trillion to see who can spend it the fastest.


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## lwllms (Jun 1, 2009)

"...Next you will say that Reagen raised taxes…"

LOL, is the Wall Street Journal a good enough source for you:

* A Vote for Clinton's Economic Program Becomes
The Platform for Often-Misleading GOP Attacks*

Contrary to Republican claims, the 1993 package with a $240 billion tax increase is not "the largest tax increase in history."

The 1982 deficit-reduction package of President Reagan and Sen. Robert Dole in a GOP-controlled Senate was a bigger tax bill, both in 1993-adjusted dollars and as a percentage of the overall economy; and both recent laws are dwarfed by the tax bills of World War II.

Moreover, except for a small gasoline-tax boost and an increase for the best-off Social Security recipients, the tax increases in last years bill mostly didn't touch the middle class but hit the wealthiest 1.2% of Americans.

GOP candidates also ignore the bill's tax cuts for individuals and businesses, and nowhere do they describe the plan as a $433 billion, five-year deficit-reduction package.

"It's the silly season. People are running for office, and people who run for office say silly things," says Carol Cox Wait, a former top GOP aide on the Senate Budget Committee who now heads the Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget…

In all but 11 of the 435 House districts, more taxpayers were eligible for an income-tax cut than got a tax boost… Even in those 11 districts… more than three-quarters of the people saw no change at all in income taxes.

-WALL STREET JOURNAL, October 26, 1994


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

Whatever that Rachel Maddow (ugh.) video said … I can counter it with the Paul Ryan plan.

There's almost NOTHING that BOTH sides DON'T do.

That's why the partisanship stuff is so ridiculous-party over principle. You either stand for/against something or you don't. How can it matter who's doing it, if you're for it or against it ?


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## CampD (Nov 8, 2008)

Neil, now you have me confused!!, am I for it or against it, ...I dont know anymore… Arrrggg!!!


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

NOW we're talking ;-)


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*Who's on First!

Who's on First?*

*What?

No… go back to step 1… *

OK… OK…


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## Jim Jakosh (Nov 24, 2009)

This thread is interesting and probably the one with the most entries. Maybe we should form a group from LJ's to run for all the offices as they come up to vote and call it the Common Sense party! with all that has been said, nothing will change with the two parties in control until this country collapses.

I think this reasoning to raise the debt ceiling ( and give them an okay to spend more beyond their means) was just a scare tactic and a dog and pony show for the public. I don't believe a damn one of them. It seems their first job qualification is to LIE. We elected those who do it well!!!

I like the flat tax. I think it was figured at one time if everyone paid 10% ( without any deductions or loopholes) that there would be enough money to run the government. Maybe that was before Obama and his 300% deficit increase.. so maybe we need 15% now.

The Government Accounting Office should be a major player in this whole scenario and I don't think anyone listens to them or wants their findings to become too public. Government is so complicated, though, that if they published figures we might need a lawyer to interpret them and which one of them can you trust?

There is some great research being done here that would be great on charts for the Common Sense party… like the charts of Ross Perot! Keep it up , guys. I'm only through about 100 entries!.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

Sounds good Jim…

We could have a Convention…

If the majority of us really liked Coffee, we could call ourselves the Coffee Party…
Our Motto could be "We don't sleep for anyone… we will work WORK W O R K for you!"

We might have to open Nominations for our Party Name & Vote on what we will be called… if the Coffee idea fails. 

Now, we have to form our Platform.

I guess the 10% Flat Tax would be good, for the most part… BUT, hey, I'm retired, on fixed income, primarily Soc. Sec. I should NOT have to pay 10% or 15% income tax… we can't afford to pay ANY tax, really!
So, I guess we have to form a committee(s) to discuss everything we want to do.

And when all subjects have been settled, we can present our Platform to the public!
We'd also have to our ducks lined up and have the Media, as much as we could, all informed as to what we want to do & when we want to do it… That way, when we announce the time & place of our convention, the Press will give us great FREE advertising!

After that, it's just a matter Doing It…

Like Perot would say… Just Do It!

The Coffee Party would be off & running with a Bang!

OK, How many agree with me? 
Jim?


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## Jim Jakosh (Nov 24, 2009)

Yo Joe and Roger, With some sawdust and Titebond, we can press our own coins!


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## Jim Jakosh (Nov 24, 2009)

Hi Joe, I could be a part to the Coffee party. I drink my share!! I like it!
some other issues on our platform could be:

One subject bills in Congress! No pork add ons.
Retirement for government employees is Social Security after age 65 or 68 and what they pay into their 401K.
All government employees have to pay part of their medical insurance and can continue to pay for the group plan after leaving office.
Lobbyists will be a thing of the past. All representatives are to get their ideas for commons sense laws from the people through open door meetings at regular intervals.
Foreign aid is only for disasters and to responsible organizations, not a general give away.
We only enter into a war when someone else commits an act of war against us and we settle it as quickly as possible and all is fair to reach that end! You screw with the bull , you get the horns!
Joe, we are on our way!!!!!!!!!


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Who's bust goes on the sawdust coin? Krenov or Gass? LOL at myself.
..
..
by myself


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## BobTheFish (May 31, 2011)

"I guess the 10% Flat Tax would be good, for the most part… BUT, hey, I'm retired, on fixed income, primarily Soc. Sec. I should NOT have to pay 10% or 15% income tax… we can't afford to pay ANY tax, really!"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

So in a single sentence, you declare what you think everyone else should pay, except for you.

How are you different from those in washington that you complain about declaring how much people should pay, but don't pay themselves????????!

At least when I propose a progressive tax, I'm willing to PAY my share of the taxes.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Ooooohhh, Now this sounds very interesting. Coffee Party????

Coinage could show a bust of Topa on the front and on his backside - Joe
Wooden nickles would become legal tender, paper money will be phased out and all hard currency would be cutting boards of several denominations. 
A public "Sawdust Day" holiday, Tool Stamps for the poor and needy, a one router household defined as destitute and shop time mandated for citizenship.
------------------------------------
Winston Churchill was being interviewed by someone who was "educating" him about the US system of Government, saying, Mr. Churchill in America just about anyone can get to be president ….. To which old Winnie replied "Yes - and that's usually the problem".


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

@Bertha, No face on the coin, just a general head shape and the rest reflective so we see ourselves on the currency. "A Party of One".. oh… yeah… never mind… the Army already went there. ;=)


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*@Jim: * Very good points… We're on a Roll!

*@Bertha:* What do you think of Maloof on the coins?

*@BobTheFish:* Right now, anyone on a fixed income of primarily Soc.Sec & maybe a little pension WILL NOT PAY any income taxes because the Standard deduction is more than enough to put them into a nontaxable status. That is Very Low Income… Not just me… BUT everyone that falls into that category would have a very hard time (Unless the Soc.Sec. checks were increased to take care of the Flat Tax percentage)... *That would work!*

*@Roger:* Yes! The Wooden Nickle sounds great! When I was a kid, I was always told by OLD people "Don't Take Any Wooden Nickles"... Never did make sense to me… BUT… Sounds like it's time to Legalize them! YES!

OK, shall we open the Nominations for our Slate of Offices?? (Might as well get it started!


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

I nominate Topa to the head of the FDA. (no joke)
Horizontal Mike should head up NASA. (no joke)
Joe Lyddon to the head of the CNC (Coffee National Convention)
Bertha to the head of Treasury (since he's used to handling large amounts of money AND he can't be trusted in weapons procurement on a budget). lol


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Then I guess that leads to Neil being nominated as the head of NADA?


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## BobTheFish (May 31, 2011)

It's not that I have any doubts about SS being low income. I just mean that you shouldn't propose things that you aren't willing to follow at any level. And especially something you automatically figure yourself as exempt.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*"It's not that I have any doubts about SS being low income. I just mean that you shouldn't propose things that you aren't willing to follow at any level. And especially something you automatically figure yourself as exempt."*

I am NOT trying to exempt ONLY myself. I'm trying to describe something that will WORK…

A Flat tax on people with very low incomes is a HUGE rate for taxes… and would be very detrimental.
Whether I, personally, am in that category or not, is NOT the point… The point is to solve a problem before it hits the street… and it IS and would be a problem.

When you get right down to it, everyone that is getting SS should have PAID into the SS Plan and as in doing that, has already paid their income taxes on that money. They should not have to pay taxes again on the same money. The people that have NOT paid-in to SS should NOT GET SS payments. I didn't say SS Benefits… I don't consider SS a Benefit or an Entitlement… I consider it as a plan Payment as a result of the Government Saving the money I have paid-in so they can pay me back from my account in my retirement years. I worked very hard for my SS account.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Joe wrote:
"When you get right down to it, everyone that is getting SS should have PAID into the SS Plan and as in doing that, has already paid their income taxes on that money. They should not have to pay taxes again on the same money. The people that have NOT paid-in to SS should NOT GET SS payments. I didn't say SS Benefits… I don't consider SS a Benefit or an Entitlement… I consider it as a plan Payment as a result of the Government Saving the money I have paid-in so they can pay me back from my account in my retirement years. I worked very hard for my SS account."

*AMEN TO THAT JOE. Stop paying those who have never paid their dues.*


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## lwllms (Jun 1, 2009)

"Whatever that Rachel Maddow (ugh.) video said … I can counter it with the Paul Ryan plan.
There's almost NOTHING that BOTH sides DON'T do…"

Didn't bother watching it? So the Ryan budget details how to put 74,000 people back to work after shutting down the FAA in an effort to prevent people employed by airlines and railroads from voting to unionize? If I was running the Transportation Department, I'd completely shut down air travel until this is resolved. Congress had better hope there isn't a major air crash or other disaster while they're in recess.

Oh, there's one other thing. You don't qualify for Social Security retirement benefits unless you've worked and paid Social Security taxes for 10 years or more. From the Social Security web site:

*How do you qualify for retirement benefits?*

When you work and pay Social Security taxes, you earn "credits" toward Social Security benefits.

The number of credits you need to get retirement benefits depends on when you were born. If you were born in 1929 or later, you need 40 credits (10 years of work).

If you stop working before you have enough credits to qualify for benefits, the credits will remain on your Social Security record. If you return to work later on, you can add more credits so that you qualify. No retirement benefits can be paid until you have the required number of credits.

Here's an interesting little comparison of tax rates between working people and the wealthy. Millionaires living in the Helmsly building pay a lower tax rate than the janitor who cleans the halls there. How'd you like to live in New York City on less than $25,000 a year in take-home pay? We have a very regressive tax system and it looks like it'll stay that way.


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## RonWoods (Aug 4, 2011)

I think these congress guys are really not serious at all about cutting expenditure whatsoever or anything else for that matter. They are just very busy arguing with each other all the time no matter what the proposal is. I am so fade up.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

*lwllms*, I'm 61 years old and have worked for 36 or 37 years (maybe more). I've paid into SS all of that time making a middle class income for nearly all of it and have never been unemployed. However, I'm still not sure if I can count on ever getting my SS. If the country keeps on going into debt at the rate it is going all bets are off and if I do get it it may be paid with dollars that are nearly worthless. However, I have lived to see many Trillions of dollars paid out to banks deemed to big to fail who have used the money to make themselves even bigger by buying up competitor banks for nickles on the dollar partly with my hard earned tax dollars and I have seen bankers pockets lined with billions in bonuses with the same money. This is surely not the same country that I was born in. If it is the same country then I no longer am able to recognize it because of the changes that have taken place. In my honest opinion I'm just about certain that I will have to keep working until I drop dead.

BTW, *lwllms*, I'm not being derogatory towards you at all by addressing you directly - I just thought that your post about how someone qualifies for SS was interesting.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

@LW: *You don't qualify for Social Security retirement benefits unless you've worked and paid Social Security taxes for 10 years or more. From the Social Security web site*

Tell that to our Government, who has been and is paying SS Gifts to illegal immigrants for years!
It's kinda hard to believe, but they are probably paying SS Gifts to Dead People!
Out of OUR SS accounts!

If we removed ALL illegal use of our SS accounts, WE would have more money in the SS system.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

@helluvawreck: I felt like you do now for many years before it came time for me to start getting Paid Back from MY Account.
I thank God that I am getting some help from My SS Account…

I truly feel sorry for you… You might get some payback from Your Account… just hang in there and help turn our Country around to what it used to be… I will, and I think most of us, will also help that happen.

It makes me SICK to see people, that DO NOT QUALIFY for SS, get it FOR NOTHING! Who have NOT payed ONE PENNY into the program!!

That MUST be STOPPED!

... along with similar fraud taking advantage of OUR Medicare system!

Has anyone ever looked at where the "Stimulus Pkg$" went?
Businesses like Beauty Salon chains… Millions to Puerto Rico…!! There was a lot of that type of spending being done just "To Stimulate Our Economy"! Trillions went down the toilet! ... and we were here to SEE it happen!
Sickening!

Foreign Aid is a JOKE!
We give to corrupt countries who just put it into their own pockets and screw their countries! That is money down a Rat Hole! Charity begins at Home! Stop ALL foreign aid! If we DO decide to truly help a country, WE should spend the money on what WE believe will help the Country… and in NO WAY let the country Leaders get their hands on it in any way!

... OK… off my soap box…


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

FAA -
their site and the legislation in question -
http://transportation.house.gov/news/PRArticle.aspx?NewsID=1359

"This extension adopts unanimously-passed Senate language and stops three airports from receiving passenger ticket subsidies in excess of $1,000," said Transportation and Infrastructure Committee Chairman John L. Mica (R-FL). "Every ticket at the Ely, Nevada airport is underwritten $3,720 by federal taxpayers."

So we subsidize nearly 4000 dollars for every ticket to keep the Ely Nevada (Harry Reid) airport viable. By naming it to the EAS list for "Essential Air Service" This came in response to the Airline Deregulation Act, passed in 1978, which gave U.S. airlines almost total freedom to determine which markets to serve domestically and what fares to charge for that service. *(and 1978 would be Carter - so don't go off on some anti Reagan soapbox from firing air controllers in the 80's)*
So in order not to drop service to BFE in the dessert - we pay 4K/ticket + what the actual ticket cost was to the airlines so they don't decide to stop serving that 12 passenger a day market - and expect them to drive to Reno or Vegas to a real airport.

Joe I agree completely - they should make payments based on what you paid in. Now the great SS idea is to go for "Means Testing". So the SSA can say " good job saving, I see you have a 401K," so someone "MORE DESERVING" will receive your money. More government penalties for living within your means.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

lwllms:

When figures like those you posted (Helmsley Building) use Adjusted Gross Income to determine the effective tax rate paid, they are *worse than meaningless-* they are *deceptive.* (a/k/a "lies"-not by you; by their authors).

Adjusted Gross Income is your income *after taking all exemptions and deductions.*

In other words, the Millionaires ACTUAL "Effective Tax Rate" will be FAR lower than the chart you showed, if you calculate:

*total federal income taxes paid [divided by] total money made*

Can you find the same information, but using GROSS income, instead of Adjusted Gross Income ?

THAT would be meaningful.

As I keep saying … not surprisingly … it's very, very, VERY hard to do.

ALSO: that reference to the Ryan Plan was my way of saying that both sides practice class warfare. They just move in opposite directions ;-)


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

The FAA issue that Obama and Maddow are talking about is that a bill was passed that stops the funding of airports to nowhere. Heck I know, one of the airports that is losing their funding is Pierre SD which has very few people flying to and from and most people drive to a bigger airport to save money. Yet Obama wants to continue wasting money on these airports. Obama it is time to shut up and sign the bill infront of you instead of spending more money!


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## SCOTSMAN (Aug 1, 2008)

We have a health service that is under tremendous financial strain.Everyone pays in and gets benefits out.If you become unenployed or too sick to work then your'e still fully covered and you get out of work or sick benefits. 
I don't mind any of these things but we have pakistanis and other muslims coming into this country with a large number of children being born here . I say large numbers of children as they usually have several wives even as much as ten wives. All of these wives are entitled to full benefits as those paying into the system all of their lives thy become pregnant and use the health service for the birth and ongoing health needs.Then comunity housing, unenpolyment benefits ,Dental care ,chid benefits,education My wife Bronwen was a head teacher and witnessed children in classrooms with up to eight different translators in the class all speaking different dialects all being paid for it .She was told in primary school these white kids two in the whole class should be on book eight their still on book two.I simply ask whats wrong with us we shouldnt accept this under any circumstances .I say if foreigners come here they should have one wife any more than that the should not be allowed in unless they can afford to maintain their families financially themsleves including health education etc As soon as the children grow up they are forced back to pakistan or india as they have british passports to marry a realative say a cousin because the have full british passports the cousins then can come here without question bringing their whiole families.They then go back each year and bring in another wife who gets straight onto benfits I spoke off this makes my blood boils please take them from us nice lovely USA.


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## lwllms (Jun 1, 2009)

helluvawreck,

Yours is a valid concern. In 1983 Reagan pushed through implementing the recommendations of the Greenspan Commission. This significantly raised payroll (Social Security) taxes to build a trust fund for the coming issue of the baby boom generation retiring. By law this money, collected specifically for future Social Security needs, was put into US Treasury Bonds. At the same time tax structure for the wealthy and businesses was reduced or lowered through loopholes and the trust fund was used to cover government costs. As you can see in the following chart, revenues from income taxes didn't even keep up with population growth. Working people didn't see those tax cuts and all I saw was all my deductions vanish-those cuts and loopholes were just for those in high income brackets.










Social Security now holds almost 20% of US Debt and we've now come to the point where Social Security will have to draw on that money. Unfortunately this creates a choice for Government. They can either raise taxes to cover the shortfall created by tax cuts and loopholes or they can selectively default on debt and not honor the bonds held by Social Security. I know what I expect.


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## VillageCarver (Mar 5, 2011)

Ok Guys here goes. I don't think anyone should be elbigle to run for public office unless he/she has served in the military for 4 years with a honerable discharge. Must be over 50 and worked in the real world. 
What about the $1 coins they're minting 24/7.? How much waste is that? Who in Washington thinks that's a good idea? If they all agree that it IS wasteful why can't they stop it today? 
They manage to force all this other BS through. It's all a game and we're the suckers for allowing it. This is the greatest county that ever was. We need to take it back. If we don't we will all be slaves with nothing left. 
There is no debt limit. The sky is the limit. They're all buying life boats with borrowed money and we and our children will be left to pay the bill. The first time I voted, I voted for Ross Perot. He warned us that there would be a great sucking sound from somewhere above that would clean us out. Well here it is folks. The question is how bad does it have to get before sane people stand up and do something to stop this fleasing of America.
We have got to elect some honest people. "ITS THE GOVERNMENT STUPID!"

"Suspenders are a lot easier to break in than a new pair of shoes"


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Alistair, Almost the same situation exists on both sides of the pond. We are so concerned with "giving or allowing" that when it comes to the legitimate recipients who have PAID to receive the these services are suddenly "out of luck" because the services you were hoodwinked into financing are given to benefactors who never paid or are even citizens. 
On both sides of the pond we need to grow balls and stop being Mr./Mrs. Bountiful and STOP paying from the heart to "outsiders" by giving services that were legislated for dues paying citizens ONLY.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

Yeah, me too, *lwllms*. We're up sh+t creek without a paddle. It'll probably be - *work till you drop dead*. :-[


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## SCOTSMAN (Aug 1, 2008)

Roger no-one wants to take it on here the politicians are afraid to lose the very big Muslim vote they are taking over chunks of cities and now demanding their own muslim schools too .Guess what their getting them too.I know poeple in London who are married live with their parents for 20 years as they are on a waiting list for concil housing as soo as a place becomes vacant they are moved from first on the waiting list to second as these people come in and get the houses as they are categorized as homeless then they get brand new refridgerators, tvs ,cookers, beds ,etc etc,not nearly *new new* as used electrical aplliances are forbidden by health and safety.They are eating us alive financially we will go broke unless we do something about it soon.On fridays they gather in the mosques and preach vile anti white hatred some cleriks have been thrown out of the country so they do it now quietly in private .


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## CampD (Nov 8, 2008)

Ross Perot, now there's a blast from the past. 
Question: when was the last time a 3rd party candidate got 25% of the vote?
Clinton can thank him for that


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*Ok Guys here goes. I don't think anyone should be elbigle to run for public office unless he/she has served in the military for 4 years with a honerable discharge. Must be over 50 and worked in the real world. 
What about the $1 coins they're minting 24/7.? How much waste is that? Who in Washington thinks that's a good idea? If they all agree that it IS wasteful why can't they stop it today? 
They manage to force all this other BS through. It's all a game and we're the suckers for allowing it. This is the greatest county that ever was. We need to take it back. If we don't we will all be slaves with nothing left. 
There is no debt limit. The sky is the limit. They're all buying life boats with borrowed money and we and our children will be left to pay the bill. The first time I voted, I voted for Ross Perot. He warned us that there would be a great sucking sound from somewhere above that would clean us out. Well here it is folks. The question is how bad does it have to get before sane people stand up and do something to stop this fleasing of America.
We have got to elect some honest people. "ITS THE GOVERNMENT STUPID!"

"Suspenders are a lot easier to break in than a new pair of shoes"*

I think Ross Perot had it right too… I also voted for him… I felt, at the time, the Giant Sucking Sound was going to be real… Actually, it happened a longtime ago… when we started losing our labor force to Mexico, China, & other foreign countries.

But, what if someone is too old to be part of the Military… but is STILL a good candidate for Office?


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## handystanley (Jun 4, 2010)

Here is a very good article out of American Thinker:

http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/08/the_budget_control_act_of_2011_violates_constitutional_order.html


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

Thanks, *Handy*. It's totally unconstitutional and the super congress can look at anything and every thing according to some of my other readings today. The only people that should pass law is the house and the senate together and send it on to the president. I have a representative and two senators in these. Most of us will not have representatives in the Super Congress. This is sort of like the Politburo isn't it?

As bad as the congress is doing it's duties it also gets old for them to keep turning over their powers to the Executive Dept - namely the President. It's un-constitutional and he already has too much power anyways.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

The Super congress essentially make Obama supreme dear leader.
You have 3Rep and 3Dem from Senate and house with Obama as the tiebreaker.

well swell - - 
Who wants to jack tax rates - - the 6 repubs say hell no, the 6 dems say GREAT. with a deadlock - Obama decides what will be done.
right down the list - slash military, adjust reimbursement for healthcare, cut SS, all the "Big issues" where there is a strong divide between Dem and Rep will now just simply be Decided for us by the wise and powerful Oz.

Like Helluva mentions - at what point have we just ceded the right to have any representation in government as the party leaders decide who the "most deserving/senior/well funded or connected folks that get to serve will be" that will be on this panel? if there were no two congressmen from the same state e.g. California or Illinois on this panel then 38 states have lost their votes. More if say a senator and house member from NY or CA serve.
This should be struck down by the courts - but they will decide that citizens do not have "Standing" to bring forth a case. so we all get to just suck it.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Touche' CR1


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## BobTheFish (May 31, 2011)

helluvawreck,

You're all pissy about a social security check you already get or are soon to get?

I'm not quite 30. I *WILL NEVER* get Social Security. My payments to the fund are going to *YOU*...

Just like your payments went to your parents and grandparents.

"In almost every financial situation that we deal with on a regular basis, there is the idea of an "account". For example, when you put money into a bank, it is understood to be "your money" and it goes into an account with your name on it. The same thing happens when you contribute to your 401(k) plan at work-you have an account with your money in it, and if you change employers the money in the account is yours. You also have accounts for your credit card, mortgage, car loan, and so on. In any of these accounts, you add money to the account and take money out of it, and whomever holds the account keeps track of how much you have or you owe.
The Social Security system is nothing like that. *In the Social Security system, the money you pay into the system gets immediately paid back out to the people who are currently getting Social Security checks. This arrangement came into being because of the way the system started.* In 1935, when Roosevelt signed the Social Security Act into law, there were a lot of people who needed benefits (because of the Great Depression), but there was no money to pay those benefits with. The idea at the time was that people currently working would pay into the system, and their money would immediately go back out in the form of benefit checks. Each generation of retiring workers would get paid by the people currently working, and therefore the system would fund itself forever despite the fact that the system had no money to start with." - http://www.howstuffworks.com/question385.htm

And you know what else? That means that the more people in my age bracket that AREN'T working, the less money is being collected for SS, which means the SMALLER your check should be. Start lowering the amount collected, and the less I'll be paying YOU as well. You should be campaigning for 50% of our paychecks to go to SS.

Also, where are your numbers coming from?


> ? If the tax percentages I see flying around for all the middle class and wealthier (from both sides) is greater than 10%, then why the hell is 10% a magic number you think is going to balance the budget? Did you do research? do you know how much things actually cost, and I know there's a lot of waste, but do you know, for example, how many gallons of asphalt are needed each year to keep the roads tip top? Can you guess how many miles of pavement there are in this country? Do you even have a reasonable way of ESTIMATING (not a wild guess) on how much that might require or how much pay for the road crews might be (even at minimum wage)


??

So how do you come up with these magical percentages you and many other people behind their computers seem to be popping out? Why do you think "these numbers should work"? when I'm guessing you have absolutely no clue.

CR1,
Same when supposed right wingers talk about "DESERVING THEIR SOCIAL SECURITY CHECK GOD DARN IT!!!" I want to tell them, "sucks to be you" once they get their zero government policies in place.

Or when they b*** about no jobs, "Hey, that's free market capitalism, baby. Your labor's not cheap enough, and china is…"

Or the stock market monkeying around… "Pfft.. you wanted "no regulations", well ya got it."

and so on….


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## bvdon (Feb 22, 2010)

Watching my 401k go down the toilet today. There's got to be a better way.


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

Hey guys think about this….. according to the CBO in Medicare is underfunded over the next thirty years by 77Trillion Dollars!!, Social Security is underfunded by 18 Trillion Dollars, qand Medicaid is under funded by 15 Trillion dollars. Obamacare will generate 400 Billion over the next 10 years, but after that it is underfunded by 33 Trillion dollars over the next 30 years!! In 5 years Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security and Obamcare will make up 63% of all government spending!!


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

Unfortunately the Republicans do not have a supper majority in congress yet, I think they need 20? more seats. This government is still completely run by democrats and has been since 2006 when Democrats took controll of both the house and the senate with super-majorities (veto override ability)


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

Don't you wish we had a president that could convey confidence? Reagan, Eisenhower, Kennedy even FDR?


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## lwllms (Jun 1, 2009)

In part BobTheFish writes, "...The Social Security system is nothing like that. In the Social Security system, the money you pay into the system gets immediately paid back out to the people who are currently getting Social Security checks. This arrangement came into being because of the way the system started. In 1935, when Roosevelt signed the Social Security Act into law, there were a lot of people who needed benefits (because of the Great Depression), but there was no money to pay those benefits with. The idea at the time was that people currently working would pay into the system, and their money would immediately go back out in the form of benefit checks. Each generation of retiring workers would get paid by the people currently working, and therefore the system would fund itself forever despite the fact that the system had no money to start with."…"

Bob, I have a daughter just two years younger than you. There's no way I'd do anything to hurt her. The right, who've been trying to kill Social Security since opposing its inception, have been telling everyone it wouldn't be there when they retire. I was getting that message when I was in college 40 years ago. It's a propaganda war that's been trying to undermine Social Security for a long time.

Social Security did start as a pay-as-you-go system but that wasn't sustainable. In 1983 Reagan and the Greenspan Commission changed that. Payroll taxes (Social Security taxes) were raised significantly to cover the coming cost of Social Security for the baby boom generation. Social Security built up a huge surplus for the trust fund, it's now more than $2.6 trillion for this. The trust fund at current rates is projected to continue to grow for the next 20 years. By law, this money had to go into Treasury Bonds, the same place the Federal Government borrows money. If wages had kept up with inflation this figure would be substantially larger but the right has been successful at gutting labor laws, slashing benefits and keeping wages down. Yes, there will have to be adjustments but Social Security is solvent, unlike Wall Street.

http://www.ohio.com/news/social-security-more-solvent-than-most-americans-realize-1.111266

With this influx of money Reagan and Bush, the smarter, began running huge deficits. These were used to finance huge tax cuts for the wealthy and to support an insane military buildup including wasteful failures like the B-1 bomber and Star Wars. Clinton balanced the budget and again started generating surpluses but GW Bush came in and immediately cut taxes for the wealthy again. He also started and waged two badly mismanaged wars. Bush also further deregulated Wall Street and the financial industry. You obviously know the results of this.

We're now at the point when all those who benefited from all the tax cuts, deregulation and bail-outs need to pony-up to to be able to cover the cost of the bonds held by Social Security. They don't want to do that but they also invested in Treasury Bonds. It creates a dilemma for them, they can't just default on the bonds without taking a hit themselves. We now have a Super Committee in Congress who's job it is to try to selectively default on those Treasury Bonds. Their job isn't going to be easy, the regressive payroll taxes have been effective at passing the burden of the cost of government to working people. It's going to be really difficult to stop paying Social Security benefits and keep the regressive payroll taxes. It'll be interesting to see how they deal with this reality, people won't continue to pay for Social Security if it's eliminated.

We also have another problem looming in the future. Our health care system has been broken for more than 40 years. That evil socialistic "Obamacare" is almost identical to what Nixon proposed in 1971 and 1974 only I don't remember the hand-wringing about Nixon being a socialist. Here are a couple news reports from that period:






There's an easy fix for health care. A single-payer system run by the Government. Just imagine how much money would be saved by removing a Goliath middleman like the health insurance industry. In this Country nearly one dollar of every two spent on health care goes to support a manipulating parasite insurance industry. If you want to see a successful Government run health care system, look at the Veterans' Administration health care system. As a disabled vet, I've been going there for a couple years and wish I'd been going all along. My wife has very good health insurance with her job but I get far better care and better service from the VA. I'm sure my health care's cost is less than my wife's. I'd be willing to pay a lot to get that kind of care for my wife and daughter. The right has always been unhappy with the VA health care system and constantly try to cut it back. That's another one left to the "Super Committee" and VA health care is also on the chopping block. The right just doesn't like any successful government program, they want you to view the Government as the enemy.

Bob, if your generation wakes up and sees what they stand to lose we could protect Social Security for your generation and mine and provide a very good single-payer health care system that'll offer your generation real health care security.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Yes single payer…that should work… since the government has ruined everything else via their incompetence


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

lwllms:

Sanity reigns in Arkansas! Absolutely correct. Good luck getting this across to the populous.

Addendum should be: Only those that pay should receive, after all you purchase YOUR security NOT people who pay nothing.


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## BobTheFish (May 31, 2011)

lwllms, I'm already for a nationalized healthcare system with no insurance providers acting as middlemen. The profit motive, on the insurance company's part at least, has driven the system to where virtually nobody can afford it, and it pays out very little (at least till recently when they couldn't deny your coverage on whim).

I'm not thrilled with what we have, mind you, but that's not exactly here nor there at the moment.

Social Security, regardless, is still pretty much a public fund, which means that it's not a simple matter of "what you put in is what you get out". It never was, and never will be.

MY main point to the comments made are basically that there's a lot of people out there that want the benefits of a large government, without the costs that go along with it. You can't have your cake and eat it too though. You have to give up one or the other. I think the benefits of government outweigh our current costs.

You also see a lot of armchair economists who seem to take upon talking points about what we should do (all of which seem to point to minimizing taxes to the point of being virtually nonexistent, as though somehow, without funding, things will magically continue on), and yet, they do this without even considering the smallest of details on what it takes to make a country function.

There's those free market capitalists about that say we're overpaid (yet do any of you really want to work at wages competitive to the chinese who make maybe 3 cents an hour???), or we regulate too much (Gulf oil crisis anyone??!??) or that businesses should just fail, (well, not much of a disagreement there, but then again, if we didn't LET businesses get that big, they wouldn't be so impacting when they fell, but that's more regulation, amirite?).

You have people whom have posted about how the president could be more draconian about how investments work, and then in the same sentence call him a tyrant (yet he's not abusing his power enough apparently), those whom are up in arms about the people on welfare, (but collect social security), bitch about a health care bill (but are on medicare and medicaid), rage against the greed of corporations (but are damned if they see one of the wealthy 1%'ers forced to pay more in taxes), complain about inflation (but still think its fine to do every little thing they can to turn a larger profit, which, in turn, jacks up prices), hate how there's no customers willing to spend decent money, (but will haggle for an hour for $10 off a hand plane), and on and on and on.

To me, it's so damned obvious what's the source of the problem. It's us. It's how we act and treat each other. It's our lack of desire to sacrifice ANYTHING. Not even a penny we might find on the street. We're so blind to it all, and yet it's so obvious.

But nobody's willing to sit and think for five seconds on their own actions and how it contributes to the mess. Nobody wants to stand and say, "hey. I'll pitch in to help out my fellow man." Nobody saying, "maybe I don't need to get the best deal all the time. Maybe I can just be satisfied with what I am getting." or "I get X from the government. Maybe I shouldn't be so critical of others that benefit."

It's just more of the shifting blame, and more antagonizing the problem rather than solving it.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Deregulation often sucks.
Deregulation as touted as opening up competition to competing providers, thus making better choices and saving money is often just a ruse for more bloodsuckers to get in on the act.
Since deregulation of utility services I can attest that my costs have gone up significantly for all these services.
Instance: Electricity. TXNM was my power supplier, then with deregulation, a myriad of "new" and unheard of "power companies" presented themselves to me (often offering cash rewards) to select their service as no longer could anyone use TXNM as their supplier. You soon find out that any of these power suppliers are nothing but an accounting company running interference between you and the "actual" supplier - TXNM. In this setup everyone running interference makes a profit, thus your bills go up, but hell you get a choice, you get to chose your own robber. Now try to get an electrical problem seen to: Call your provider, they call TXNM who come out to fix, maintain or install. If they would only deregulate the deregulation and I could deal directly with TXNM, then it would cost me less (no go between involved) and all my issues can be handled going straight to the horses mouth - TXNM. That easy and cost effective method was deemed "unfair" and changed to let leeches in as middle men.
This situation in various forms exist in many industries, telephone, water, healthcare, you name it someones got their unneeded and unwanted hand in it skimming and making a business out of it.
Deregulation has done much to cause this current financial crisis and will continue to do so until someone with enough balls and authority will get these bloodsuckers out of the picture


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Hey Lwllms, where can i get the source facts that support this statement of yours?:

*" In this Country nearly one dollar of every two spent on health care goes to support a manipulating parasite insurance industry."*

I bet you just made that up to support your ideology, didn't you?


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

Deregulation is like taking a blood clot out of an artery.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

*Bob*, with all do respect to you, I am in business in a manufacturing company. We started with nothing.

Mine and my brothers week went somrthing like the following:

Monday - Thursday: 7:00 - somewhere between 7:00PM - 11:00PM we rarely left before 9:00PM
Friday - Saturday: These were nice days 7:00AM - 4:30PM

Now these hours was if everything went right - things don't usually go right in an underfinanced manufacturing company everyday. We both worked on the factory floor right along everybody else and we were good with our hands too. My brother could do every job in the plant faster than anyone else and I was pretty good myself except I could fix and set up any machine in the plant faster than anyone else. We didn't sit behind at any desk.* Not that I disrespect somebody that does*.

Longest week ever worked - 117 hours

Number of Sundays worked - couldn't tell you. Probably every 3rd or 4th. Not counting a 10 year stretch that I worked 7 days a week.

Number of times worked 24 hours straight - have no idea, but plenty.

Number of times worked 30 hours straight - probably 15 or 20

Number of times worked 36 hours straight - a hand full

Longest hours worked straight - 1 time Saturday morning to Sunday evening late. probably 48 hours. This was after putting in a regular week Mon - Fri

Longest stretch for working seven days per week - 10 years. I had 1 week vacation and 5 standard holidays during this time. It was generally an eighty hour week minimum.

About 12 years ago my brother and I had a conversation and I won't ever forget it. He said "You know what Charles? Me and you have already worked twice as much as most people work in their whole life time."

I thought about it and said, "I guess I'd have to agree with that."

We've gone from a 30×60 building when we started to the one we're in now. It's about 180,000 sq ft. There was not one bit of it that was ever easy in any way. That conversation that we had above was 12 years ago. After we had already worked twice as much as most people worked in a lifetime we moved into this building which was 150,000 sq ft at the time and we wondered how we were ever going to be able to use that much space because we came from a 40,000 sq ft building. We worked our ass off for another 12 years and here we are today. The last 12 have been the hardest of all. I wouldn't wish a manufacturing plant on anybody. They are a helluva lot easier to build up than they are to get rid of.

Every thing that I have is tied up in this business but the politicians and financial people have wrecked this country so I don't know if I'll ever see a dime of it because what crazy idiot wants to buy and operate a manufacturing business in this country?

Let me tell you something - there are a whole lots of better ways to make money than to operate a business like this.

So, *Bob*, you think I'm fixing to retire off of my big fat SS check? No, I don't think so.

We have a business here that we have to try to salvage. There are a whole lots of people in this country who are in the same boat farmers, small business people, you name it.

We'll probably just end up working our asses off until we just keel over and drop dead because that's the only way we ever known how to do it.

*Bob*, said "helluvawreck,

*You're all pissy about a social security check you already get or are soon to get?*"

*Bob*, I don't dis-respect you - I don't even know you. I try very hard not to dis-respect anyone here and I've been here for a little over a year now. Most people that know me here know I try not to dis-respect anyone.

Now, none of this is bull******************** that I've said here - it's just plain out the truth.

BTW, *Bob*. *I don't have no hard feelings toward you so please don't take it that way.
*

*It's just not in my nature to have hard feelings towards anyone.*


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## BobTheFish (May 31, 2011)

Well wreck, my numbers aren't quite the same as yours.

During High School, I also balanced two jobs. 1 i was working 30 hours a week, the other 20.

The longest I worked without a day off is a little over a year. My typical work week during that time? 80-90 hours.

But it's not a pissing match.

What are you honestly working that hard for?

I understand working because you enjoy it. I understand working to put food on the table, but what is your reason?


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

lwllms - - you say
A single-payer system run by the Government. Just *imagine how much money would be saved *by removing a Goliath middleman like the health insurance industry

Sorry I can't imagine it - - even if I assume a yoga stance and try to channel john lennon.

Please give an example of the government running anything efficiently. (there you now have an example of government and efficient used in the same sentence - so but a powerball ticket)

as far as increasing the cost of social security, had you looked you would easily find -
To combat the declining financial outlook, in *1977 Congress passed and Carter signed *legislation fixing the double-indexing mistake. This amendment also altered the tax formulas to raise more money,[49] increasing withholding from 2% to 6.15%.[50] With these changes, President Carter remarked, "Now this legislation will guarantee that from 1980 to the year 2030, the Social Security funds will be sound."

But that wouldn't fit the ideological argyment that before Reagan everything was sunshine and lollipops - there were not partisan politics, and government was out to protect the little guy.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

*Bob*, you asked what was my reason for working that hard?

I was just trying to make a living for my wife and three children and build up a little something for my wife and I to retire on and help my children get their lives going. Is there something wrong with that?

Actually, what I really wanted to do was get my masters and Phd in mathematics and engineering and become a college professor or do research in private industry. Way back yonder I went to the University of Georgia and studied mostly science and mathematics for 2-1/2 years. I made excellent grades. Then I went to Georgia Tech for about 2-1/2 years in Mechanical Engineering and made excellent grades there. The problem is I was married to my wife (been married 40 years now) and we had two children at the time and it just became too tough to go to school and take care of my family so I dropped out just 9 months before my degree. I went to machinist school for 6 months with the idea of becoming a machinist and working my way through my masters and Phd as a machinist. However, it became too hard to work long hours and go to machinist school at the same time so I tried to talk the instructor into letting me make some parts for a machine that I wanted to build for the plant and let him grade me on that but he couldn't do that and I understand. Anyways, I quit 6 months into machinist school and talked the people in the plant into buying a few simple basic machine tools and so I've been in this kind of work ever since.

Also, part of the way that I became part owner of the plant was working long hours for many years on a salary. So that was another reason for the long hours.

Have I done something wrong?

You just seem to have an angry tone about you - are you angry with me?

I'm not in a pissing match with you.

I was simply trying to point out to you that I have worked damn hard all of my life and tried as best as I could for my family and I not to have to live off of anybody or be a burden to anyone.

Anyways, no hard feelings. You just go on about your business and I'll go on about mine. It's been nice talking to you, *Bob*.


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

Retirement is a myth. Most people will never be able to retire after the dot.com bust, the housing bust, Federal government taxes, and because the economy will be unable to grow for at least 5-10 years. We are stuck in in stagnation because of our debt and our citizens habits. On the Bright side, our counrty will go thru very tough times but we will be better and stronger for it. I am in my 30's and my kids and grandkids will know that we scrimped and sacracficed just to have a little more, and did what we needed to do to survive. Kinda like my grandfather did in the 1930's when he took in drifters who just needed another meal.


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

I have a hunch that veryone on here works hard for a living, that is why we make sawdust!! Some do it for a living, some do it to be handy some do it for relaxation! But we all do a little more that the slouch who just buys a bookcase at walmart.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*@helluvawreck:*

*C O N G R A T U L A T I O N S !!

You did it The American Way!

Pure and Simple…

The American Way!*

My story is similar to yours (but yours is Best!)...

I stumbled into a field that I had no idea that I would like… Accounting, in a Public Accountants office… He volunteered to teach me… if I liked it, I could go to school, etc. and continue in his office.

I liked it… went to school… found out that I knew more about Accounting than they did! Took Bus. Law… all part-time at Jr. College…

The Accountant went into providing a Data Processing service for some of his clients using IBM machines… I was selected to learn & run those machines… LOVED IT! I was the chief Keypunch Operator, Janitor, Systems Developer, and Machine Operator… I did it ALL! Worked my ass off for many years after that… Around the clock many times a month… I made good money… I was an asset to the Company and every Company I ever worked for after that.

I eventually got into Programming and Systems Design for computer systems, rather than just Punched Card systems, which I LOVED even more because there so MUCH more power available for better systems design!

Stayed with it… climbing the ladder… to eventually retire from being a self-employed Computer Systems Consultant!

There is one thing I learned very quickly… When you work for yourself (self employed or part owner), *you ALWAYS work your ass off…More than you ever did before… and, for the most part NEVER get paid an extra penny for doing so… We worked for the Future… our Family… Kids… etc.*

And here I sit listening to the Cry Baby insane logic that is trying to convince me that everything I did was wrong!!??

*That is the American Way…

We . . E A R N . . . I T !!*


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*@BobTheFish:*

*"To me, it's so damned obvious what's the source of the problem. It's us. It's how we act and treat each other. It's our lack of desire to sacrifice ANYTHING. Not even a penny we might find on the street. We're so blind to it all, and yet it's so obvious.

But nobody's willing to sit and think for five seconds on their own actions and how it contributes to the mess. Nobody wants to stand and say, "hey. I'll pitch in to help out my fellow man." Nobody saying, "maybe I don't need to get the best deal all the time. Maybe I can just be satisfied with what I am getting." or "I get X from the government. Maybe I shouldn't be so critical of others that benefit."

It's just more of the shifting blame, and more antagonizing the problem rather than solving it."*

==========================================================

I *think* I see where you're coming from…

I* think* you are talking about the Younger generation… instead of the Older Generation that Hellofa, myself, and others belong.

I *think* it's possible that US, as the result of and part of the older generation, *we may have tried too hard to care for and make it better for our Children… and their Children… *

I have seen many an example of kids now days who really do not want to do anything BUT Eat, watch TV, Play computer games, with the worst getting into POT & drugs.

I ask *"How did they end up like that?"*

We, older dumb group, *worked too hard and GAVE them too much…* where we* should have MADE them WORK* for everything and to *be RESPONSIBLE* and *NOT depend on Help* to be always available from anyone, not even our Government… And, we should have taught them more about *what an American really is.*.. *What we have done*... and *WHY we did it…*

I'm* not* saying that ALL of us OLDER group messed up like this… I'm saying *SOME* of us did… *more or less* than others…

*The EASY life,* unfortunately,* has spread* to even the third generation… because the second generation didn't know any better… and to make it REALLY WORSE, *they are making their way into our Government!! Ending up with "The Blind Leading the Blind".*

That, to me, is one of our biggest problems… *and I do not know how to solve it.*

*I ask you… *

*If there was another type of Pearl Harbor attack on OUR United States Mainland:*

*How many *of the able-bodied people living here in the USA (that includes illegal immigrants) would DROP what they were doing and join the Armed Forces to help fight back?

*How many* older people, not able to fight in combat, try to join the Armed Forces to do what they could to fight back?

*How many* people would not want to fight at all regardless of age?

*How many* would fight… BUT, against the USA Armed Forces?

I think we *(older group, at least)* would be surprised at the results, based on what we know we would do.


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## NathanAllen (Oct 16, 2009)

Anyone remember when the Republican mantra was don't vote for Democrats because they were "Tax and Spend Liberals?"

It seems like both parties realized they could spend spend spend without taxing part that tend to get politicians "unelected."

Sadly, the Tea Party isn't the answer, so far all the've done was show immense resistance to taxing the wealthy, their ability to slide pork into bills and facilitate tying raising the debt limit (the symptom) to political grandstanding. The debt is serious, and we need to take real steps to prevent it from becoming worse. This means a compromise between new taxes and cutting spending. It is going to hurt for everyone, and espcially in a bad economy.

Threatening Military Pay, Medicare payments, Social Security checks, and other necessary expenses in an effort to gain control of the Senate and White House doesn't help us. Both parties need to wake up and grow up.

But they won't, because our politicans are reflections of us, we elect them because they have a strong stance on religion or gay marriage or abortion; things that should have nothing to do with our selection of the people who decide the direction our economy takes.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

I agree Joe -
I doubt you would see many 16year olds lying about their age so that they COULD join the fight.

Many would look at the attackers and ask why do they hate us, try to name it a "Overt confrontational overtone from overseas" instead of an attack - then try to decide if the level of oppression would be worth fighting back against.

A new engineer fresh out of school and worked less than 6 months went into the annual review (everybody is rated in January) He was rated 3/5 in the middle - as here we have a forced bell curve.
His Mommy called HR…we weren't giving junior enough attaboys, and "don't we recognize he was at the top of his class?" 
Many if my parents did that i would have to quit out of pure shame…but he is proud that Mommy "Called them on it" for this cruel system that rates people against their peers. The schools have supported this effort to be non competitive. and that 'we are all winners' PC stuff.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*@DrDirt:*

Yep… to put it bluntly, *a Bunch of Spoiled Brats!*

Sad… but true!

The last really bad thing that has happened… is the *"911 Attack on Our World Trade Center in New York"*.

*Ten years ago!*

I wonder how many kids 20 years old (or more) *remember what happened?*
*How it happened?
Why it happened?
Who did it?*

I wonder how many people in the United States of America, TODAY, think that it *was a HORRIBLE event?*
*How many would approve of such action?
How many would want it to happen again?*

*I think I would hate to know… *


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Joe.
All you said is absolutely true, today everyone looks to the blame game and not inside themselves to see where and why we are in this situation, we did it to ourselves, nobody else to blame.
As I have said before, the US after WW2 was the only country unscathed by the war and had no devastated homeland and economy, in fact the US made a fortune after the war and was on easy street. Yes the US helped others and it had casualties, but no other country involved benefited financially and globally like the US did.
The problem has been that this era of great prosperity became the "norm" in people/businesses minds and not just seen as a windfall. For a while the US had a captive audience of customers and made lots of money, but these other countries recovered over time and although they were grateful for the US help, they had to be able to stand on their own two feet again, and they have.
The US would not accept that the "windfall" was over and that easy money methods were finished, so creative, devious and erroneous methods were introduced and acted upon so that the windfall would carry on forever. We were even so audacious to give the finger to our overseas customers by not adopting the world's accepted methods of measure, enough to say we don't care what you want , you'll have it our way.
Our former adversaries have worked hard (with US support) to get their country and financial/economies back together while the US was still believing in easy street. 
As a result, the work ethics in the US suck, misrepresentation, corruption, scams and me, me, me. The US does itself an injustice, we have a beautiful country, many resources etc., but the notion we have the right to make money by fraudulent methods, dishonesty, devious actions and greed prevents us getting our country in order.
Basically, it's time to start over again. No historical excuses are relevant, accept and go ahead, bite the bullet, share the pain, get honest, do an honest day's labor for your family AND your country.
Joe and others of a certain age can reflect on earlier times when although they may have been tougher, they were at least honest and forth-rite, but as Joe says we always wanted something better for our children and the post war economy provided that, it was a boost, but not a guaranteed to last forever.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

Roger… Sadly, very true.

Something is going to happen to pin our ears back… When?... God only knows.

I hope & pray that it will NOT be a disaster taking the value of our Dollar to a horrendous level…

Another sad thing is The World considers the US Dollar "The Currency" and, as a result, prefers to have their currency be Tied-To the US Dollar "World Wide Standard".

If our dollar goes to Hell in a hand basket, it will effect the World… Not just The United States of America.

What should we do to prepare for it?

IMHO, Save & Buy precious metals like Gold & Silver… I think their price will seek It's Level and then Settle down…
At that point, the cost per ounce in US$ should let one survive as well as you could expect under the circumstances.
... and just might make a big difference in ones life style. I don't know… That's my best guess…

What do you think we should do to prepare for it?


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## BobTheFish (May 31, 2011)

Hellofawreck. I said it wasn't a pissing match because, well, it isn't. Your statement about how hard you worked kind of came out of left field. I figured it as an attempt to tell me that you worked all this much and "how dare I" criticize you for wanting social security.

Which I don't.

But I was curious as to what would make someone work that much. As you can guess, I put in more than the standard 40 hour workweek that people talk about often, and tend to only take off when I need it. Been doing it most my life thus far and am happy enough with it… Or perhaps I just don't know what I'd do with myself otherwise.

I work to basically keep myself fed and a roof over my head, and keep me financed well enough to keep doing the projects I enjoy… I guess I enjoy what others would call "work" even when I'm not working. (but then again, projects are of my own making, and therefore, I don't call work).

Honestly, I would love to say you should have stayed in school, or gone back at some point to get the advantage you lost, but… Well, I'd probably do the same. I went to college for a year and dropped out. I also always did well in school, but was an utter slacker. I just couldn't make myself do what I saw as pointless busy work. I slept in classes and aced tests… And in college so many of my required classes were repetitive bits form HS, that I just stopped going to them (though my ethics class? perfect attendance. I loved it and it was something new and stimulating).

And I don't feel as though you don't deserve in some way social security, though I think we all should get it. But if it gets cut, it gets cut. There's nothing that can be done about it, and saying "I want my SS" when it's not possible can be a bit…. "childish" (and there's a lot of childish adults lately).

As for the comments about younger generations:

yeah. A lot of them are spoiled. I look at my younger brother every day and see nothing but a child that has been given every advantage I never had, and instead of being grateful, he wastes food. he obsesses over silly crap. he feels entitled to the latest technology. It's wretched.

But the boomer generation is by far the most "gifted" generation we've ever had. They were born into good times, had the benefits of so many social programs, and it's only now things are on the downswing. Younger generations ALREADY have a screwed up environment. They ALREADY inherit unsustainable housing prices, lack of jobs, a government that is collapsing from the inside. They are looking already at possibly lower life expectancies, more health issues, and I think MENTAL health numbers showed them as being more screwed up than those that came before them.

You may have given your children all the possessions they could crave, but you didn't give them much of a future.

Most of the 65+ crowd I've known have told me that they feel sorry for me, because they know that they're leaving this world in the next 20-30 years, just as everything is about to fall apart… And I'm going to be living it.

It's NOT a pretty picture.

You also mention Pearl Harbor. Anyone here even alive to remember the day Pearl Harbor happened? Any of you old enough to have served after that? How many of you hid out during Vietnam? Or protested it? And how many of you legally avoided the draft, or were against it?

And how many of you honestly believe and respect your government now?

And you expect your children to?


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Joe,
To answer your question about what to do, I really can't give you a broad answer on that, just as I see it.

Personally hoarding precious metals does not appeal to me, after all you can't eat it and can't use it for anything more than to trade for items you may not want. I believe you should become self sufficient as much as possible:
Grow your own food, find any way you can to alleviate the sole source of outside services, make your own things instead of purchasing as much as possible, cook your meals - don't purchase them, see if any solar inclusions can be made in your home, use a fireplace, use a charcoal BBQ to cook - it makes a good oven. Make sure you have tools to maintain a produce garden and the property, fence the yard, batten down the hatches, save rainwater and BUY A GUN, put signs on your property to inform intruders. Buy a bicycle, walk, lessen your dependence on gas

As you will see on TV, once some people don't have or can buy things, then looting becomes the new form of "purchasing".
All I can say Joe is to prepare for your worst thoughts and then some, who knows how things will go down, but I feel that being prepared for the worst, even though it might not happen is the best insurance to have.

I am lucky because as a small child living east of London city, I spent a lot of time in air raid shelters and saw first hand "victory gardens" supply the needs and home made food sustain us. It is not that I remember too much of it, but even after the war for 5 or more years we lived with stark austerity measures and I learned how to survive.
Let's hope I can do it again if needed. I used to be a boy scout, so BE PREPARED means something special to me.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

cr1:

"This is exactly what Bernie Madoff did. He merely copied the SS model Ponzi scheme."

Yes and look what that got him:
Free housing, free utilities, free meals, free healthcare, free fitness training, free education, free clothing, free TV and even wages if he worked, and a free burial - and he does not have to wake up next to some scary nagger every morning. lol He gets visits by relatives which most of us would be happy to have restricted.

Poor Bernie - my ass


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

Lets thank GW Bush for setting up this nightmare with excessive tax cuts, the Republican Party for not raising much needed taxes on the wealthy, the Democrats for letting Pelosi substitute Pork for Stimulus, President Obama for caving in to Boehner, and the Tea Party for scaring junior Republicans away from fiscal responsibility.

Lets count our blessings. Be thankful they got Bin Laden, even if we don't know who to thank (Obama or the Navy Seal Team 6), since it is so confusing whether our president supported them or not. Obama said the following:

2008: "Navy Seal Team 6 is Cheney's private assassination team." 
2011: "I put together Seal Team 6 to take out Bin Laden."

2008: "Bin Laden is innocent until proven guilty, and must be captured alive and given a fair trial." 
2011: "I authorized Seal Team 6 to kill Bin Laden."

2008: " Guantanamo is entirely unnecessary, and the detainees should not be interrogated." 
2011: "Vital intelligence was obtained from Guantanamo detainees that led to our locating Bin Laden."


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

@Roger:
Most of the stuff you listed, I took for granted to be done… I was pointing to how could we be able to BUY what we needed to buy. I figured Gold & Silver would NOT go down the CRAPPER… but stay alive so as to provide for the stuff we just HAD to buy… You have a very good list… It scares me to have to let the Internet GO… 

I was right here in So. Calif. during the Pearl Harbor attack… 
I remember the News Reels at the movies very vividly… 
I remember seeing real Convoys going up and down our street in San Bernardino, Waterman Ave. It was FUN watching them… just like a Parade! I was only about 5-6 years old in 1941.
I remember air raid sirens blasting away at night! 
I remember our round street lights being painted Black over the top half of the globes.
I remember us quickly pulling the window shades down over our windows and turning OFF lights… waiting for the ALL CLEAR signals.
I remember collecting the tin foil from Wrigleys Gum wrappers so we could build airplanes from them.
I remember crushing ALL of our tin cans and putting them into special containers for collection. We didn't have trash collection… we burned everything that could be burned in our back yard furnace.
I remember Sugar only available if you had the Coupons to buy it!
I remember collecting coke (soft drink) bottles and beer bottles taking them to the corner market to get money for ice cream & candy!
I remember Paper Drives where we went door to door asking for bundled newspapers and magazines… Which were turned in for money to help schools, etc.
I remember our first pair of roller skates clamping onto our shoes… we needed a Skate Key to help that happen.
I remember all of the News Reels at the movies (we did NOT have TV! We didn't know what TV was! We had radio… *and we had to listen to that awful NEWS all the time!*
*The most vivid thing I remember on a News Reel, in the theatre, was the Atomic Bombs we dropped on Japan!
No one had ever seen such a bomb before and the horrible devastation they did. I gotta say… at that time, it was a GOOD sight to behold because it ended the horrible WAR!*

Ah yes… I remember it very well as if it just happened… I will NEVER forget it…

I remember seeing an Army truck pulling up in front of the house next door…
I remember seeing a soldier getting out of the back of the truck and started toward the house.
I remember seeing a young lady running as fast as she could to meet that soldier in the driveway with a hug and kiss and being swept OFF of her feet in an embrace that seemed to never end.
I can still see that happening as clear as I saw it then!

Yes, I remember it well…

I remember seeing in News Reels, at the movies, the Japanese Camacazi (sp) suicide planes flying into our ships A horrible sight!

Movies of the war was horrible… but it was happening… we saw it on News Reels… We will never forget it!

Now, when our righteous President apologizes to ANY nation for us, The United States of America, doing what have done as if we were wrong as hell and should NOT have done it, it makes me SICK… and proves to me that our President is really NOT an American and does NOT care about The United States of America! Too many soldiers DIED fighting for the freedom we have enjoyed…

Think about it… If we had Lost that war, ALL of us would be speaking German or Japanese!

We won that war… we are STILL speaking English (or trying to to  )

The generation that did not see and remember all of that, AND WAS NOT EDUCATED AND TAUGHT WHAT HAPPENED AND WHY IT HAPPENED, is part of our problem today as mentioned before.

God Help us… God Bless America!

Oh, one more thing… maybe two… I remember saying the Pledge of Allegiance in our school class 1st thing in the morning… I remember it well. I remember "Under God" being added to it!

And the last thing that I will mention, that I remember well to this very day…
Whenever I see our Flag in a parade or at a stadium with the Star Spangled Banner being played and sung (without the hopped up crap), I still get goose bumps, etc. on my arms and feel the blood rushing through my body!

I still remember a lot! ... and will never forget it…


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

David,

*"Lets thank GW Bush for setting up this nightmare with excessive tax cuts, the Republican Party for not raising much needed taxes on the wealthy, the Democrats for letting Pelosi substitute Pork for Stimulus, President Obama for caving in to Boehner, and the Tea Party for scaring junior Republicans away from fiscal responsibility."*

Yes, GWB helped setting up the problem… but Obama, and the spending Democrats, flushed the major part of the Stimuls, etc.down the crapper making things worse than it was… and he's STILL trying to spend his way out of it.

Remember this… Who hires people? Who really CREATES a job?
*The Rich! It's the Rich! *
Poor or average people DO NOT create jobs (baby sitters do not count).

*Before the Rich will invest and CREATE jobs,* they must feel good about it… They must feel like they are going to do some good… Make money, improve the economy, and have fun!

If all they see is a huge Health Care bill getting shoved down business throats with no clear picture of success possible but more red tape and regulations, etc. etc., *they are NOT about to invest and CREATE any jobs… They are smart enough to NOT flush their invenstments down the CRAPPER!*

Obama and the Democrats just cannot see that! They have seen the Stimulus $$ do no good whatsoever… Yet, they STILL want to pour MORE money down the CRAPPER! They cannot learn! They just do NOT understand how the Public Creates Jobs… They think the Government Creates Jobs! They might create some tools that would enable the Rich Public to CREATE jobs… but, THAT would be too easy! DUH….


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

The rich do not create jobs; if they do, why have the tax breaks on them been causing jobs to go overseas for the last 30 + years? It is guys like me that create jobs, but I'm not interested in working that hard anymore, so too bad for all the people calling looking for work. What are we going to do with the permanently unemployed? When a million apply for 60,000 jobs at MacDonald's and 16,000 apply for 1 janitor job in the Midwest, we have real problems!! Guys like Mitt Romney have spent their lives raiding corporate assets and shipping the jobs overseas are at the root of it. If the taxes on their activities were in the 70 to 90% range, they wouldn't bother to gut the companies to convert the assets to cash.

I am very fortunate to have been retired most of my life. I was raised on dairy farm and worked for neighbors. The summer I graduated from high school, I worked 6 - 18 hour days all week and an 8 on Sunday. It wasn't a big deal, we were raised not knowing any better. When I was 19, I came to Seattle to short hours, 40/week, and good pay, 3x-6x what I made on the farm and lived happily ever after.

.*So next time don't copy down the MoveOn.org talking points* I have never been their site and don't know anything about them. They may be quoting me ;-))

*I am curious about one thing; why would anyone on here who cannot write a check for a million dollars be so adamant about preserving the Bush43, the dumber one, tax breaks for rich ?*


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*They have seen the Stimulus $$ do no good whatsoever…* Hmm?, I see roads and interchanges on the freeway being built all over the area to relieve some of the worst traffic congestion in the country. One of the problems moving goods to the ports on Puget Sound is the last 30 miles take as long as teh trip from the Midwest many times ;-(


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Topa, if "rich" people don't create jobs, who does?

If not the rich then all that is left is poor people and the government to create them.

Which one is it?

Volkswagen just built a plant here in Chattanooga and hired 2000 employees.

Is VW more likely to be:
1. Rich
2. Poor
3. Government

The state helped by offering incentives but it was the "rich" investors that supplied the capital to create those jobs.

Private sector jobs created by private investment from shareholders with government incentives.

If government does not help (incentives) then they at least need to not obstruct and the "rich" will create jobs if they can get a return on their investment.

Higher taxes does not help create jobs. It only transfers wealth.

Would you not rather have a job than a handout?


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

One of the things that I think is at the very root of our problem is our currency. In a very real way the currency is the foundation of a financial system. Our currency became partially fiat back in the great depression when all the gold was confiscated and totally fiat when Nixon took the backing of gold away from our currency internationally. We've had a pretty steady inflation rate (on average with some up and down spikes) from 1913 to 1971. However, look at all of the financial charts from 1971 to the present. All kinds of things started to unravel and gold began to rise. I wish that I had invested every penny I could get my hands on in gold back in the 60's, 70's and 80's. Gold has generally held it's value throughout history over thousands of years.

Back in the 1800's when our money was tied to gold there was a fairly stagnant inflation rate it was very little. Yes there were some ups and downs and there were some financial panics but most of these were caused from the banking system and it's practice of fractional reserve banking as well as some of the bank notes that were issued. Our currency was stable. Fractional reserve banking by it's very definition is unstable - especially if the required reserve starts moving below 10%. I don't know what is now but I can assure you that it's way way lower than 10%. In a real way our currency is now almost completely based on debt. This is not a stable system.

The true definition of real money is that it is suppose to be first and foremost a *medium of exchange*. What does this mean? It means that the money itself has a stable value. If the market has determined that a loaf of bread is a dollar (stable dollar) and somebody hands the grocer a dollar then the grocer knows exactly where he stands. He can then take the dollar and buy two loaves of bread and thus he has made a profit.
If he put this gold dollar in his safe or buried it in the ground he could safely count on it holding it's value for years and years. However, fiat currency is just not stable because no matter how hard they try the government, the bankers, and the politicians cannot resist the temptation to devalue it by 'printing more money'. So, ever since 1913, if we use the 1913 dollar as a standard, the value of our dollar has lost at least 95% of it's value. Inflation is a real hidden tax on every American. Now we are really seeing inflation big time. All you have to do is watch the gold. Of course you can also see it in the grocery store.

Thomas Jefferson once said that the only people who deserve the occupation of money lender are those who have money to lend.

Now, he wasn't talking about fiat currency, nor was he talking about fractional reserve banking. He did not approve of either. He was talking about real money. Now, just about every country in the world uses fiat money and fractional reserve banking and I'm pretty sure that we are fixing to see just how unstable these are in the coming years.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

"Yes single payer…that should work… since the government has ruined everything else via their incompetence"

Ideology, instead of fact.

Medicare recips always report higher satisfaction with their health care system than clients of private insurance.

We rank about 16th in the world (developed nation) in overall satisfaction with health care/health outcomes.

Medicare runs MUCH cheaper than private insurance.

But …..

There's no money in healthy people.
There's no money in dead people.
The money-right now-is in the middle.

Anybody find the TRUE Effective Tax Rate (total federal income tax paid [divided by] TOTAL income), yet-by income ? No point in talking about our tax policies, at the various income levels, if we don't have any relevant and accurate info, now is there ?


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

"Topa, if "rich" people don't create jobs, who does?"

And if it isn't the poor and middle class DOING those jobs, then … who is it ?

Dude. Easy on the bumper-sticker lines. They're meaningless, and go POOF, under the most cursory of evaluation….


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

"Higher taxes does not help create jobs. It only transfers wealth."

Ditto the 70,000+ page Tax Code.

How's the search for true EFFECTIVE TAX RATE (based on GROSS income, NOT AGI) coming ?

I think-should you EVER find it-you'll be surprised.


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## BobTheFish (May 31, 2011)

helluva, Fiat money doesn't work because of usury practices (paying interest).

Joe, your one of the only people whom can say that apparently. No offense, but Pearl Harbor happened nearly 70 ago. Anyone that would be a veteran of that time would probably be in their 90's. Anyone with memories of it must be 80-ish. Not calling ya old! Just saying that there's not many people who can do such, which is kind of my point. They're much more likely to remember vietnam, which was before my time. And nobody seems to have said much about patriotism regarding that.

Rocky, Volkswagen was originally a socialist car. Hitler's car in fact.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

BobTheFish: Right, Volkswagen means People's Car, Hitler got Ferdinand Porche to design and manufacture a simple, cheap and efficient car for the masses. Interesting to note that the VW was also the German "Jeep" used as a staff car.
I think what Joe was trying to say is that he had lived through times that were uncertain and difficult and that people of his generation only wanted to shield their children from that kind of situation.

Joe: On our news last night was a couple of disturbing items. 1. A 79 year old lady living alone had her window A/C stolen, she reported it to the police, but the next day she died from heat exhaustion. 2. A retired man who lost the use of one leg and an arm from a heart attack and spent all his time making simple toys in his shop to give to kids and local hospitals. He would deliver them in his specially adapted old golf cart, that is - "used to" because thieves stole his cart. What a sick world?

Somehow, if we are ever going to get ourselves out of this mess, we need to stop the pissing contest and start over. There is going to be a great deal of pain that has to be SHARED and include every section of the community, and if there are some that don't go along with shared responsibility and are not willing to some suffering, then we are finished.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*RockyTopScott asks Is VW more likely to be:
1. Rich
2. Poor
3. Government*

Actually, 4. None of the above

It is a corporation owned by individuals, both rich and poor in institutional accounts such as 401Ks and other pension funds.

I do not remember the exact number, but most new jobs are created by entrepreneurs willing to take a little risk. When they find themselves overwhelmed by the demands of business activity, they begin to hire help. In my case, my wife and I were unwilling to sacrifice 10 years with our kids, so I went back to working by myself and occasionally hiring help.

Banks are worse to deal with today than they were 25 years ago. They told me they did not want to know contractors, restaurants or fishermen even exist until they have been in business for 5 years. I told him, by then, I won't need you. That proves beyond the shadow of a doubt that labor is far superior to capital.

Even Bill Gates and Paul Allen did not start with billions, they started by putting in lots of hours and gave worthless stock to those willing to put in lots of hours and take a little risk. That stock paid off for them. But, if you had put an equal amount of money in all the high tech start ups at that time, you would be in the hole 10 years later. Usually, the risk takers lose in the first year, most of those lasting beyond the first year will fail in the next 4 years. About 1% will make it beyond the 5 year point.

Many of those who fail will find they are victims of leeches that never pay a bill that isn't at least a year old, if they pay at all. The guy that built the tallest building in Seattle was reported by my business acquaintances to operate that way. They cautioned me not to work for him. When the Seattle Times reported his house was gong to be sold at tax auction, I thought that was a bit funny. He had access to billions in credit, could not pay property taxes on a house. I, a mere peon, could write a check for many times what he owed. Further proof of how far superior labor is to capital. After all, there was nothing of value until labor created it.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

It continues on here so I am going back to one of my original post in this thread, the hatred and envy of successful and weathy people escapes me.

Because somone works hard, got their education/skils, has a great idea, is innovative, creative and took a risk investing their own money and sweat into the development of a product or service that has value and fills a need in the market this person should be "punished" with a higher tax rate so their efforts can be transfered to someone else that did none of these things?

Should their taxes be confiscated so the government can pay for someone elses cell phone or give them money because they keep having children they can't support?

If someone can't afford a cell phone, they just don't get one. I can't afford a new Mercedes Benz, it doesn't mean someone elses money should be taken by the government to give me the difference between a new Benz and the 5 year old Ford truck I drive. Where does it end?

You deserve nothing, absolutely nothing you did not work for and earn.

You do not deserve food, health care, cell phone, cash or anything for that matter…..you should get what you work for and stop being a leach on society.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*A 79 year old lady living alone had her window A/C stolen, she reported it to the police, but the next day she died from heat exhaustion.* That should be murder one! The terrorists of Wall Street will be responsible more more deaths of Americans than 911 type terrorists ever could hope to kill.

When lowlife scum steal my tools, it is just a property crime, but if someone walks out of a restaurant without paying the police will track them to the end of the earth. Why? Stealing tools of the trade is just as bad or worse than bank robbery.

*Roger* We can't start over. Do you think these piss ants that screwed it up can create a better system? The founders like Washington, Jefferson and my cousin Roger Sherman are gone for ever ;-(( They were a Golden Age, a mere pimple of sanity on the greedy ass known as civilization.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*@TopaMax:*

FYI… I do not Copy/Paste anything from anywhere (except other comments made here for continuity).

*Who was your last employer?*

Someone or Corporation that ran a Farm?

*It takes MONEY to establish and run a Corporation… poor people could not afford to do it.*
The POOR, for the most part, don't even know what Stock is, let alone have the money to BUY it!
Some Middle Class, YES… POOR, NO!

*Was that Someone:*

*1.* POOR?

*2.* Middle Class?

*3.* The Government?

*4. * None of the above, *RICH?*

OK, THAT part should be settled by now…

As has been said before, it takes Incentives to make it better to invest and hire employees.

*Incentives like:*

*1.* * Remove all sorts of Red Tape of CITY, STATE, and FEDERAL Governments.*.. Licenses to even think about opening a business… EPA approval… City approval… etc. etc. etc.

*2. * *Removing the EPA would be a good start.*.. that is a dept. that started off, IMHO to handle a temporary job that had to be done, and has done That job and is now trying to Justify it's Existence by creating all sorts of just plain STUPID regulations that are essentially shutting down the Private Sector from starting businesses or forcing many businesses OUT OF BUSINESS losing needed jobs! They have done their job… It's time to remove them!

*3. * *Having ObamaCare looming over everyone's head*, which is still very UNCLEAR, is a huge UNKNOWN as to how the Business world is going to be impacted. Are they going to be required to Pay for Healthcare insurance for ALL of their employees? How Much? Be burdened with filling out MORE monthly reports providing the Government with information to tell them if you're doing the job they want you to do! Requiring more people to be hired JUST TO COMPLY WITH THE GOVERNMENT CRAPPola. This should be Repealed ASAP… If repealed, you will see the Stock Market go UP and Jobs starting to be CREATED by the Public Sector… Just this one item would start the ball rolling… the rest would really get us moving!

*4. * *R & D Tax Credits!* They promote & provide a true Stimulus to enter into more Research & Development to grow the business.

*5. ** Investment Tax Credits!* They promote the opening of new businesses and to grow existing businesses.

*6.* * Income Tax reductions for Corporations and the RICH!* This must be done* in conjunction with* everything else mentioned. This, without the rest would NOT help much to get the economy rolling immediately (would help in the Long Run).
This leaves more money to the businesses so they can invest, grow, and hire more people to help get the job done. (Creating Jobs!)

*That's just some of the important things that should be done…*

In Short, remove as many stumbling blocks & time consuming nonsense to make it better to run a business!

*If this is NOT done, jobs will NOT be CREATED by the Public sector.*.. Leaving only the Government "Created" jobs which, for the most part, is pouring our tax money down a rat hole.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

BINGO TOPAMAX…you got it!!!!!!!!

So if my 401k is invested in these corporations, don't I want them to be successful and grow and be profitable so my retriment fund will grow???

Why does the left demonize these corporations when the vast majority of the U.S. population is invested in them?

PS TOPA, we can start over, it is called SECESSION.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Wonderful post JOE….you are a Great American!


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*the hatred and envy of successful and weathy people escapes me. ………………. If someone can't afford a cell phone, they just don't get one.*

I don't see it as hatred or envy; just simple equity in a just society and a civilized world. Why should we allow income and wealth of a magnitude that buys Congress to the detriment of the masses? If they quit buying Congress, who cares!

This obsession with every tax dollar going to welfare is beyond my comprehension. There are a lot of gov't functions that have nothing to do with welfare. Poor people have considerably less impact on the "commons" of this country. "Commons" being all the facilities that are gov't owned and provided. An airport is just one example. It costs billons to build and operate. A poor person will never be able to buy a ticket or go anywhere. Why should they be taxed at half of their meager income to support hat kind of infrastructure? Why shouldn't the guy that flies continuously be taxes at a higher rate, but leave him with infinitely more disposable income than the poor guy working 3 or more part time jobs to make ended meet?

What about the interstate highway system? Why should a guy working 2-3 part time jobs be taxed at a rate that contributes to it? He can't even afford a car. Barely has shoe leather that will keep his feet from blistering on the hot concrete sidewalk as he walks to work.

I could really care less if there were no airposts. I don't need to get anything "next day air". Rail or truck is fine with me.

Taxing the rich guy at a rate high enough to stop speculation in the markets will be for the benefit of all of us. This boom, bust, boom, bust is not conducive to growing economy or stable society.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

@BobTheFish:

*"Joe, your one of the only people whom can say that apparently. No offense, but Pearl Harbor happened nearly 70 ago. Anyone that would be a veteran of that time would probably be in their 90's. Anyone with memories of it must be 80-ish. Not calling ya old!"*

*I am 75.*

*Parts *of my Body feel really OLD at times…
For the most part, my "mind" is still as *"Young in Heart" *as I can make it. LOL
The short-term memory seems to fade a little now & then… being easily distracted.
There are other things… *but I can't remember them.*..  LOL

I guess what us OLD people would call you, at your age, would be

*"A young WhipperSnapper!"*

OK, sonny, I hope this fills you in a little of just how "oldish" I am… LOL


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

I see now TOPA, it is all about social justice in your mind. You should move to another country ruled under communist regime and you shall have social justice.

I am for individual freedom, responsibility and opportunity.

You and I will never agree. So be it.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*Joe* Not sure what your pasting comment is about? I just mentioned I had never been to moveon.org to see what they have to say or paste their points.

Corps run farms today, but family farmers did it when I was growing up. Having corps like Conagra in control of the food supply is a very scary thought. You can expect the prices to escalate in the future if someone doesn't start enforcing anit-trust laws again. Monopoly capitalism is just plain evil.

My last employer was a individual that started a business just like I have done. I haven't worked on a farm since I was 19 ;-)) I knew by the time I was 6 or 8 years old there had to be an easier way to make a living. The first time I 'hoed' a corn field, I crawled down the 1/4 mile long rows pulling weeds with my fingers. I wasn't big enough to control a hoe very well. Dad said we were damaging too much corn, so he would not let us use them

I totally agree there are many regulations impeding business activity. Are they bad? Depends if you want to live like the Chinese where everyone is hacking and spitting constantly because of the air pollution? One hell of a price to pay for their 'success'! Should the people of St Louis be drinking raw sewage from Minneapolis? Should New Orleans be a cesspool? A few of these laws are necessary.

10-15 years ago, I was telling my acquaintances employment in the US is dead and dying. They thought I was nuts, but now they have no jobs.

Some one needs to * define the rich*. It should be obvious to the most casual observer, there is no communication or comprehension. *Who are* you calling *the rich?* There seems to be an awfully lot of naive attitudes about how corporations work and what management is doing in them. Most 401ks are set up for Wall Street managers to leech off at least half of the total return over the life of the "beneficiary." The greedy have a big stake in ending defined benefit plans. Social Security is a plum they have to pluck!!


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*RockyTopScott* I'll stay right here. I think we should return to the utopia of the 50s and 60s. Apparently you were born a century late. If you want to return to the conditions of the 19th century, just keep working for it. You are getting there; mostly peons on subsistence incomes, a small middle class of professionals (drs and lawyers) and the elite with multi-generational fortunes acquired by means thet were made illegal under the antitrust legislation of the early 20th century. *Do you believe a man working 40 hours a week should be able to feed his family, buy a house, send the kids to college and save for a decient retirement?*

*Where do you guys think corps originate?*


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## Wolffarmer (Jul 14, 2009)

Yes Topa

Long ago when people started to talk about privatizing Social Security I thought to myself. That is just a way for the money managers to get their hands on more of my money.

I think the past few years have shown that to be true.

Randy


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*Why does the left demonize these corporations when the vast majority of the U.S. population is invested in them?*

Not really sure why the left is demonizing them.

If you had ever owned much stock and seen what management is doing with your investment, you would know why I do. They are bleeding off nearly 100% of the profit for themselves, violating lots of laws and basic ethics in the process. The shareholders have no say in corporate governance. Most shareholder votes are declared advisory and they go back to business as usual.

It is quite obvious most of the opinions are based on hearsay or propaganda from Rush Windbag, not personal experience in any of these matters.

I wondered why Bush43, the dumber, did not do anything about the criminal activity leading to the market crash of 2000. I found only about 10% of the population was directly effected. Everyone was indirectly, but they didn't understand the markets and systems enough to know what happened or how it would affect them in the long term. The top 5% have so much wealth, the impact was insignificant. There was no political clout to move Bush, the dumber, off his dead ass to enforce any laws,. After all, it was his ivy league college drinking buddies that were the culprits.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

*TOPA said Some one needs to define the rich.*

Acording to the POTUS that is someone making $250K or more a year.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

When I was young and naive, I thought I could take my half of FICA taxes, invest it. Let my employer keep his half. I would be much better off at 60 or 65 than being in SS. I laid out a plan to be worth several million by 65. The one thing I didn't know or consider was fraud being a market risk, not a violation of law. Trusting the lying [email protected]@rds at Merrill Lynch put a big dent in that program. ([email protected]@rd being defined as mean, debase, corrupt, evil and extremely wicked)


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

If rich is *someone making 250K or more a year.* Freedictionaly.com defines someone as "An unspecified or unknown person." Therefore, most of the comments are not germane to my comments about the "rich." Read my comments again. Corporations are not someone. There success or failure has nothing to do with the rich or poor.

Most corporations are incorporated by people like me who move beyond sole proprietorship for a variety of reasons. Of course, many of them have been in existence for many years. Siemens for example was incorporated in 1847. The fact that it was a supplier for the Nazis using slave labor during WWII has significantly less impact than if a real person had the same history.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

If I owned a small incorporated custom cabinet company that employed 20 people and I made $400k net per year would I be rich Topa?


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

"Because somone works hard, got their education/skils, has a great idea, is innovative, creative and took a risk investing their own money and sweat into the development of a product or service that has value and fills a need in the market this person should be "punished" with a higher tax rate so their efforts can be transfered to someone else that did none of these things?

Should their taxes be confiscated so the government can pay for someone elses cell phone or give them money because they keep having children they can't support?"

Any evidence they pay a higher % than middle class people ?

Not that I've seen.

Total Federal Income Taxes paid [divided by] Total Money Earned.

Where's the evidence ??

Good luck, and happy hunting


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

Listen if Obama gets his way you will not be taxed upon your net income but your gross income. He has stated several times and put it out in his policy statements that he would like to have a 55% tax on gross incomes 250K+ That means if you own a business and have a gross income of 300K and you will be taxeded 55% on that amount and that is reguardless if your net income was only 5K you will still be on the hook for 165k in taxes vs the current system which would only tax you 35% of your net income.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

So, Neil would you be happy if everyone paid a flat tax of say, 30% on gross income, not AGI?

Here is where you can get a cell phone paid for by tax payers: https://www.safelinkwireless.com/Safelink/


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

Some of the greatest American heros died today. RIP Seal team 6! YOu have made a sacrifice for our counrty that we cannot repay!


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

We should turn Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan into parking lots, then maybe the terrorist will get the message.


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

Will we debated over what the responsibility of governement is and was or should be, and whether people are sacrificing or splurging. Seal Team 6 has been killed in Afganistan. Whether the war is right or wrong these men sacraficed their lives for us! I hope we all remember that!


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

Scott: I wouldn't begin to guess.

I'd have to see where we are, NOW, and THEN take a look at the fiscal impact of any such proposal.

But I can't figure out where we are, now-that actual effective tax rate thing.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Neil, could it not be about a flat fair (equal) tax and not financial impact?


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

Way too complicated for a simple answer.

We have a nation to run. We have made decisions that caused us to incur certain costs. Deciding on tax policy without understanding its fiscal impact … wouldn't be smart.

Being able to compare current to proposed (and I can't find current) wouldn't be smart, either.


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## patron (Apr 2, 2009)

*rocky*

here is the *truth* about the free phone

https://www.safelinkwireless.com/Safelink/program_info/benefits

there is *no free lunch*

for anyone !


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Wow Patron, do tell me where I can get a cell phone arrangement that does not have taxes on the bill cause I just looked at my AT&T bill and it ALWAYS has taxes on the bill.

A tax is a tax is a tax. It not just the income taxes we need to reduce it is all taxes.

Safelink has to be getting the funds for this program from somewhere/somebody.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*If I owned a small incorporated custom cabinet company that employed 20 people and I made $400k net per year would I be rich Topa?*

I do not know for sure, depends on your total circumstance. I doubt it. When I had to come up with and pay out $30K a month before I could give my wife grocery money, I didn't consider myself rich. If that is the case, you are probably working 80 hour weeks to keep it a float. The money I made then wasn't worth the aggravation or time away from the family to me. Sure, I wrote a check for a new Mustang when the kid needed a car to get to school. I am glad I did. He still has it in his garage. All the checks to Merrill Lynch depreciated a lot faster than the Mustang did ;-))

*We should turn Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan into parking lots, then maybe the terrorist will get the message*

Parking lots are in better shape that they are; smooth, striped, ect. I wonder why we shoot a $2 million cruise missile to take out a beat up pickup with a 50 cal mounted in the bed? If they never got out of the stone age, how can you bomb them back to it? Bush, the dumbest, needed Bin Laden as an excuse to keep the money laundering going to support Halliburton and other corporate leeches. (Money laundering being defined as the transfer of the FICA money paid by people with incomes too low to pay income taxes to his corporate Ivy League drinking buddies.)

An East Indian friend of mine told me their intelligence told our administration years ago to forget Afghanistan; he is in Pakistan. Bush, the dumb one, needed Bin Laden on the lamb. Without that issue to stir up the people and the constant reminder of 911, he would have to deal with domestic issues like jobs leaving the US by the millions and 50,000 factories closing in his 8 years.

Regan started this standard of finding and using a case of welfare fraud to characterize it as the system standard. It seems to have stuck to the right wing extremists like glue. I am totally opposed to giving handouts to lazy non-producers and welfare cows that produce a multitude of offspring for a check. There are disabled and others who simply are unable to support themselves or function in a modern society. I could have been disabled when the idiot overdosed me on Topamax. I told them I would recover and restart my business in a few months. Why would I want to live on what they pay a month when I can easily make more than that in a week?


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

*Topa said: I am totally opposed to giving handouts to lazy non-producers and welfare cows that produce a multitude of offspring for a check.*

Now your talkin brother!.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Hey David, any large sums of money I might handle are all pre-tax, so what's the difference.
I'm only 40, so I was looking forward to meeting with my first financial advisor. I came in with all kinds of lucrative plans. When he was tallying up my projected retirement, he didn't even include social security. When I pointed that out, he said, "well, we can run that hypothetical". He also told me to expect to work until 70. It was a really fun meeting!


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## BobTheFish (May 31, 2011)

Rocky, I have never been employed by a person bringing home more than 250K a year. Period.

If you're self employeed, you'll also find that the vast majority of your sales are not from people making 250K+ a year. You may get one or two now and then, but in no way are the majority from them.

When you walk into a privately owned store, or a repair shop, or a family owned restaurant, chances are they are NOT millionaires or the 1%'ers. If they were, they'd be more than 1% after all.

So no, I rarely support corporations, and have never been supported primarily by the wealthy.

As for Pakistan and Afghanistan… Well, I say leave them alone. No need to antagonize, and no reason to bother with them. A bit of isolationism might do the US some good.

Finally, I like my environment intact. I like breathing fresh air. So leave the EPA the hell alone thankyouverymuch.

Joe, Age is just something that happens to us all. Life's an adventure, and it sounds like you've had quite an adventure thus far. Cheers and best wishes to its continuation!


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

I am a gung ho guy! Hubba, Hubba, Hubba!!!! Hows that? Somehow, turning three countries into a parking lot is absolutely abhorent to to every bone in my body, not to mention my own heart and soul. Have you ever been to a large football stadium on an off day. Where are the cars, more importantly where are the people? Are they all terrorists? I know it's not so. I have a friend here on Lumberjocks whose name is gul. I send her a PM every now and then to wish her well and to ask her how she is doing and I do it sincerely from my heart because I love her even though I have never met her. She is from Pakistan I think. I've been woodcarving all day to day and have enjoyed it because it does my heart and soul good even though I'm not very good at it. I am trying to carve a lion. This is the second time I have tried to carve this lion.

I love lions.

I once said that

rivergirl is like a lioness,

sometimes she is as playful as as a kitten,

but sometimes she roars as if to protect her kitten.

I love lions.

I love rivergirl too; she's like a little sister that I never knew I had. But I never met her.

I love people too.

I'm going back to my woodcarving because I am happier when I do that.

The world has lot's of problems. I don't reckon that I'm smart enough to solve any of them.

I'm going to try to stick with trying to carve this lion for a while

because I love lions.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

Sad day about the Navy Seals Team 6 being shot down…

... and on top of that, I'll bet the weapon that shot it down was made in the USA!* Just My Guess!*

With all of our intelligence skill, it would seem to me that we could know where those weapons come from (we probably already know) and Kick BUTT to stop it… Bombing whatever is required to take them out.
If they're in Pakistan (and they probably are), so be it… BOMB whatever has to be bombed to take'm out.
NONE of this politically correct BULL crap… Just Do IT! Everyone were warned years ago that if any country helped the terrorists, they would be considered to be part of the terrorists and appropriate action will be taken.
We (Bush) said it… It's time to get down to DOING IT!

May they Rest In Peace… and we Thank them for their service…
(can you hear me playing Taps?)


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## WayneC (Mar 8, 2007)

Good idea Charles. People are people world wide… They are wonderful when you get to know them. I enjoy getting to know new people, you included. I wish I had your commitment to get out there and keep carving. Life keeps interrupting me. I've not heard RG roar, I bet it would be impressive.

Al, I figure I will be working until I die….. Just planning on it.

Related to this thread, congress has become all about power and money, the fact that they represent the people and should be doing what is right has been lost in the hunt for power and money. It is impossible for people who want purely to serve to do that anymore because of what it takes finacally to to be elected. I think major campain finance reform is needed before the situation would improve.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

Well, maybe it's starting to happen… The sheet is hitting the fan??

The USA lost their AAA+ Credit Rating by S & P…

China is getting MAD… How mad do they have to get before THEY take action? What action will they take?

Will our stock market DROP drastically?

Will the price of Gold & Silver shoot to the sky?

This next week should be very interesting…

Obama says *"Washington has to do a better job."*

NO KIDDING! Does it sound like he's finally getting the picture?

NO… He's not part of Washington that he's talking about! DUH…!!

What does he do? Escapes to Camp David…

When he gets back, I wonder How Much he will want to SPEND to fix the PROBLEM?!

I'll bet he comes up with some type of Spending….

If he does, it will prove, beyond a shadow of any doubt that is completely DISCONNECTED from Reality!

The next weeks should be very interesting…

I wonder if he will actually start to CUT where we can CUT… in Defense and Foreign Aid for starters…

We shall see…


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Charles, don't give up. Economics isn't rocket science. Go back to the policies of the 50s and 60s. It worked very well last time, but the greedy could not stand to see a middle class they could not control. Right now Brazil is doing what we did then and it still works great. Those who say this a different time now, yes it is, but human nature has not changed one bit.

I worked for a guy like that one time. He had to have his thumb on everyone and be able to replace them at any instant. He didn't like it when customers told him he could have a job if he sent me to do it. It took him and his college buddies about 3 or 4 years to lose everything his dad spent a life time building. I could not tolerate the way he treated some of the other guys and decided I would not be a part of his company. He told me one time if I didn't like something he was doing he could have my check ready in an hour. I wouldn't leave even a jerk like that in the middle of a job; mostly for the customer's sake. When I quit 6 months later, he told me I couldn't do that. I said they abolished slavery in 1863 and I believed I could. I mentioned he was going to get my check and boot me out the door in an hour, but we were in the middle of a job so I let it go. He said he didn't believe he said that, and if he did, I should have known he didn't mean it ;-))

He and his college buddies got rid of all the guys that had helped his dad build the company. He thought all jobs were the same; had no idea how to price them. One day he was out on a job I was doing. He was looking around telling me nice work. I never bothered to tell him he was looking at another contractor's installation ;-)) Here again all the capital his dad amassed in 30 years of business was subservient to labor. Without good men in the field, he had nothing. He never learned he was not in control, he was dependent on good help to be successful.

I see so many parallels between that situation and how the politicians and managers are running the country and multi-nationals today. The only difference is the scope. Instead of taking down one little company, they are taking down a global empire. I am sure Nero would be proud of them, following his example 2 millennia layer.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

Topa…

You're right-on there… Most of the politicians, that have been there a few years, do not have the foggiest idea of what it takes to develop a good combination of events to form a good working relationship with the Simple Private Sector Businessman and Corporations.

They have no idea how Business thinks… but boldly pass all kinds laws and establish Departments that do more harm than good… and they haven't a CLUE of why they're wrong!

The Younger Generation, that hasn't really grown up yet, trying to do a Mans job without a CLUE of how to do it.

That's probably our biggest problem starting from the VERY TOP OFFICE, down.

The 2012 elections are SUPER Critical… I hope people wake up and apply their brains to the ballot boxes.


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## BobTheFish (May 31, 2011)

Joe, A man is defined by his actions, not his age…


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*The USA lost their AAA+ Credit Rating by S & P…*

It doesn't really matter, S&P have lost a lot of their credibility. They rate things the way the issuing agencies tell them. One primary example is the derivatives and other garbage that was sold to pension plans and other investors. A lot of it was junk the issuing company had placed bets against. When the mortgage backed securities were paying 7 and 8 % with mortgage rates in the 3s, I knew something had to be rotten. I had no way of knowing what or how bad. It was rotten beyond my imagination! The market will decide if Treauries are worth anything or not. If they aren't the Fed will come to the rescue and inflation will really take off.

*China is getting MAD… How mad do they have to get before THEY take action? What action will they take?*

The next World War will be us, US, and Russia against the Chinese. You can thank Slick Willy Clinton for giving them the technology to blow us off the face of the earth. The Chinese were only getting 10% of their missiles off the ground. US corps wanted a cheaper way to put satellites in orbit. They gave the technology, which was classified, to the Chinese. It is the same technology that the military uses for intercontinental ballistic missiles. When the probe to get those who did the dirty deed started, Slick Willy, by executive order, made it legal. End of investigationl end of treason.

*Will our stock market DROP drastically?*

It should, it is inflated and no where near what is trading at.

*Will the price of Gold & Silver shoot to the sky?*

Probably, but I wouldn't bet on it either way unless Bill Gross, Pimco's guru says to jump one way or the other.

*Obama says "Washington has to do a better job."*

It does, for sure. Too bad he and Harry Reid have no spine. The threat of filibuster has stopped everything the House has done in the last 2 years, 240 bills. Not all good, but not all bad either. The Rs need to put the country first and defeating Obama second until a couple months before the election.
Cutting spending at this point will just make recovery worse. When nobody has a job, the top few % will finally have to pay a reasonable share. Nobody else will have any income to pay with ;-((


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## sandhill (Aug 28, 2007)

How about these Chinese people saying America is a risk to there economy. How about when we gave and still give them all money to compete with us and then dissolve/forgive there debt. 
I say pull ALL foreign aid, raise the import taxes and that will dissolve our debt. How about that huh?

I have been coining a phrase "If your in, your out" meaning I will not vote for anyone that wants to raise the national debt.


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

It would be very tough to duplicate the economy of the 1950's without another world war in europe


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*sandhill* you hit the nail right square on the head. If we default on 100% of Chinese held debt, they have lost nothing. We gave them all the money they lent back to us, US ;-(( The Fed giving the largest bank corps 0% cash in early 2009 and them buying 3% Treasuries instead of lending to business is just as bad ;-(( See why corps are hated so much these days?

It would be tough to duplicate the economy, but the policies would go a looooooong way towards straightening out the mess we have today. Especially the financial institutions. When Merrill Lynch, Solomon Smith Barney and 13 other of our 17 largest retail brokerages were identified as criminals by Eliot Spitzer as Atty General of NY, they were into a lot of things that would have never ben tolerated by 1960 standards. All of those policies were put in place in the 30s to prevent what happened in 2000 and 2008. The price of oil over $100 a barrel is little more than high stakes gambling by large financial institutions. the same thing happened in the 20s. Local, state and federal law did away with it. The commodity modernization act did away with all the protections for the public and the stabilization rules. When they legalized high stakes gambling, the feds repealed all the local and state regulations and laws. AIG, Donald Trump and the US taxpayers are the only people to ever loose money in the casino business!!

A bit of Merrill Lynch trivia; in the early 2000's, a class action suit was brought against them for all the wicked, evil misdeeds they had committed on their retail brokerage customers. A 93 year old federal judge was brought out of retirement to dismiss the case!! WE are no longer a nation of laws and no one has any reasonable expectation of justice. You get teh out come you can afford, just or not.


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## BobTheFish (May 31, 2011)

I don't know about that topa.

I agree the market is where inflation is worst. But it makes sense considering that most of the money from the stimulus packages went to corporations and banks, ie the stock market. It's like a giant ocean of money sloshing about, inflating prices of commodities way beyond what they should be. You can see it with the volatility we've seen for months (probably more likely over a year) now. Gold and silver, in particular, are WAY overpriced. A year or two ago, it was high at $14 an ounce, dipped down to $9 for a moment, and then was back on its way to the new high of $40 (and I used to do work with silver, so I'm quite sensitive to its price. In fact, the "used to" part is because of how expensive it's gotten. Photography and cinamatography companies are now investigating the use of cheaper materials and jewelers are already start to adapt to the use of silver fill and silver plate due to exorbitant prices). That sort of inflation is in no way in line with any other prices. Prices may have inflated, but I can't think of too much that anyone is seriously paying *TRIPLE* what it cost a year or two ago for.

If you're getting into metals now, you're way too late…

Besides, common wisdom is that you invest when things seem a bit under the radar, and sell when it becomes then next new craze.

The fed will NOT be issuing more money. The public outcry would be beyond what anyone would willingly risk. The budget balancing and inflation are huge concerns in the public's eye… Adding more money into the pot is just going to make our "reprimanding" worse.

And considering how little is left in ways to "infuse" the money, other than GW's lovely plan to just mail us all checks, I would not be waiting for it to happen.

If I were in congress's shoes, I'd be looking for ways to repeal the bush cuts, and to subtly lance the boil that is the stock market, hopefully to SLOWLY drain out the excess we put in their without serious damage and to get things under control before it all blows under its own pressure…. Which is about to happen any month now…

What I see happening though, is more stalling and fighting in congress. More people losing jobs or having to make due with less…

I believe you'll see some serious drops, as well as a few gains, like before, as investors, sensing a fall, start trying to prop up an overinflated system, lest more people pull out too quickly, and they lose altogether more money than the would otherwise.

*(Because their willingness to invest creates "confidence", which can be used to leverage a higher price. If prices drop too fast, the "confidence" is lost, and price becomes a race to the bottom as people try to get whatever they can out of their stocks before their worthless. Since the markets are almost purely based on confidence, it's truly a "con" game.)*

I figured before that things were starting to get about right when we were around 8,000 on the Dow, but… Well, I won't be surprised if you see a few more drops in the next few weeks, and I will not be surprised in the least to see a dip slightly below 10,000 between now and Xmas. If it hits 8,000 I'll be a bit surprised, but not in complete shock.

Unemployment is going to seriously stop and run out soon. I do not believe in it being extended again.

Which means people are going to be overcharging more, more workplace stealing (surprised it hasn't increased already), more robberies, and general low level human ugliness.

The more people have their backs against the wall the uglier they get.

I grew up like that. I learned to be a mediocre thief of sorts to get by. (Mainly I used to steal food to eat.) It's not the worst I've been forced to do, nor the worst I've experienced, but it's given me a "unique" perspective on how we can tend to act at our worst. (Since I got my first job though, Most people consider me so honest it damned near hurts… There's a reason behind that.)

And thus ends my playing Nostradamus.

Let's see how it plays out and how accurate I am.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

What part don't you know about Bob?

That is a good summary. When the fed has to inject money, the public will never know. The 12 member banks will quietly put it in circulation. Back in the late 70s I picked up a brochure in WA Mutual at Federal Way, WA branch on 320th and Highway 99. It was about the time mortgage rates were gong through the roof at 14-18%, or just before. The title was something to the effect of "What you should know about the Banking Act of197?" In it the act provided for a written notice of 6 months, I believe, for a depositor to withdraw his funds. I thought to myself they are preparing for a run on the bank. If everyone wants their cash, they have time to print it. Even then, there was very little of the total money supply actually printed. I am sure there is a considerably smaller amount today with so many electronic transactions.


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

You've got that right, Topa. I have gone many months (many times) with neither a currency note of any denomination nor any coin on my person. All transactions cashless: check deposits, then debit card, on-line bill pay, etc. I know I am not the only one by any means.


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## BobTheFish (May 31, 2011)

Heh. Sorry Topa, I originally was going to post about the possibility of war, but got sidetracked.

World war doesn't make sense in this day and age, and afer many many years on the decision of "mutual destruction", it just doesn't seem likely that all of this will result in global warfare of an actual "warfare" conflict.

If you look back, the last "good war" was WWII, and the Korean War was just a little "acceptable" war before sentiment truly changed with our Vietnam War. Even our so called wars in the middle east are often limited to small conflicts with either a quick resolution or long periods of occupation and (general) inactivity.

Today, instead, war is fought with ideologies and financials. We're already at war with China, and so is the rest of the world. It's all just hidden within the financial markets and policies.

China, has for years, been buying an excess of resources, and what it doesn't use for creating cheap products (thanks to its communist labor and fixed currency) has been basically either gone to infrastructure or "hoarding". It lends out money to not just the US, but many other countries, and then, via controlling manufacturing, has sucked back in those very same cash reserves to purchase more and more. And it's not JUST the US that is getting sucked under because of this. France, Germany, the UK… everyone is switching to china to manufacture goods because of the low costs. I know because 90% of the stuff we've been been getting imported from these countries has been stamped or stickered "made in China". I could name two or three imported brand names that used to be village industries in France that are now almost entirely made in china. Hell, Turkey must be dying, because before it was china, it was turkey where the EU used to get their "slave labor" cheap products made.

China, in short, has remembered what everyone else forgot: Economic power doesn't lie in consumption or in services. It lies in manufactury of hard goods and in possessing raw materials.

Where we once "won" the war against communism through Coca Cola and McDonalds, the chinese are waging a secret war of their own, using our previous tactics against us.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Topa I am surprised you are thinking that the threat of fillibuster kept obama from doing the right thing.
BO never had any intention of reducing the budget.
His budget to the Senate was summarily voted down 97-0…..What kind of leadership from BO is it that not a single democrat would agree with it? I mean I would have hoped that maybe Harry would have supported the president and ended up going down 96-1..

The whole TARP stuff - with the clowns at the fed - sent the money to the banks to "erase some red ink" but it still was holding bad mortgages - that they are foreclosing on even though us taxpayers have already paid off the banks. Yet Geitner and Bernanke still run the show. abd Bo cant believe that we were downgraded by S&P…gee they say we need to cut 4Trillion minimum - we instead cut 900 billion and make some bogus commision to 'find' another 1.5. So they do at best, half what the agencies predict - and we got downgraded.
Question - looking at our debt and spending - *would you give the US a AAA rating?*

The Teachers Unions got it right about Social Security and in several states they opted out - so they have their SOcial security taxes + employer contributions in personal accounts - that right now pay out double what they would have received in Social Security - - - maybe we should look at whether there is a better way long term, as we continue to have fewer kids - so fewer paying into the system, while we live longer.

from SSA - they did a comparison of SS and the Galveston plan -


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I do not know how long it will be, but when resources get short enough, the bombs will fall!

They are certainly waging war all right! Just yesterday or the day before McAfee reported a cyber attack had taken plce with a scale and veracity that even took theam aback! It is believed to have originated in China ;-)) Where else? When Nixon went there, I said he should have left the little [email protected][email protected]$ alone. They were perfectly content to be isolated behind the Great Wall. Everyone said it was an infinite market. Market? Without any money? Peasants on a subsistence diet don't buy manufactured goods!


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

Since the "imperialist" days are long gone (when a war is won, then when you finally leave they get the country back and we help with "rebulding"), I just wish we would do the shock and awe, then get the regime change, then go home. Just spank that ass real good so they remember the stinging for awhile, tell them we'll be back if they don't behave and call it victory. Celebrate. Parade. Bring all the heroes home.

Oh, no… we have to stay for a decade and by the time we leave it's a defeat psychologically and monetarily. And tell me again why we stick around so long ? So they won't have a civil war ? So "armed insurgents" don't take over in our wake ?

So we won WWI, WWII and Grenada ? We got an assist for the Faulklands, I guess.

We've spent most of our money and nearly all of our good will on these long drawn out open-ended don't-have-a-real-plan OR a goal and can't find the WMD's (laugh at Bush and Cheney and Powell) occupations.

Stupid.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Mostly the threat kept Harry Reid from calling their bluff and nothing was passed in the Senate. Obama can't enforce anything that doesn't make it to his desk. Both of them are spineless wimps.

I am sure there are many ways to beat SS in isolated instances. Teachers in WA are not able to opt out of SS. It is not the way to go for the average person on his own. There are too many pitfalls and shysters out there. Most of the individual plans are set up to benefit Wall Street and to hell with any one on Main Street.

I advise my kids to never trust a financial advisor. If you know enough to know if they are competent or lying, you know enough to do it yourself. I should never ever have trusted Merrill Lynch. A few minutes a week over the years I would have known infinitely more than their guy did. He couldn't even keep up with me and answer questions after I studied things for a few days!! After they lost a bunch, they decided they would provide management teams instead of one shyster. The plan was to put their clients who were not happy into specially managed funds in $100,000 increments. A few minutes on the web and it was obvious I could match their performance buying Dow exchange traded funds. I would not have to pay them a management fee of 5% a year or be locked in for 5 years to get out without a penalty. DIA is traded daily on the stock exchange. It took me a couple of weeks to really talk circles around those idiots. I can't believe I was so naive to ever have trust Merrill Lynch or any of the other professional thieves in the financial services industry. All they do is set up a revenue flow for themselves without doing anything of value for the client.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

When Bush, the dumbest, said we were going to Iraq and the oil revenues would pay the cost, I said BS! Vietnam II and the taxpayers will pay through the nose. Russia and China are currently get the oil and we are paying for that idiot's grudge against Saddam. Barbra Bush seems like a nice old lady. She has to know what an imbecile he is. Bet she is embarrassed to own up to the fact he is hers ;-)) I still think if he had marched on Wall Street instead of Baghdad, he would have been a real hero with a legacy up there with Lincoln and Washington.


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## BobTheFish (May 31, 2011)

Blah. This didn't show before, and the post below is better. So I deleted my original post here for the other.


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

What makes people work harder and invest is the chance to become rich or at least better off. What Obama wants to do is take the motivation of doing more or investing away from the American people. The risk the greater the potential reward, without risk there is very little reward.


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## BobTheFish (May 31, 2011)

The bombs will never drop. Did Russia ever retaliate against the US? No, it just crumbled in on itself.

The death of the US will be by default. China and anyone holding our debt will be stung, but by far the ones hurt the most will be ourselves, and it'll take generations to rebuild.

The resources in and of themselves isn't INCREDIBLY important. Just holding the power over them.

Besides, the forests and oil fields and farmland of the US isn't going to magically appear in china. It's always going to be intrinsically the US, even if someone else has ownership of it via a variety of different corporations. What you MIGHT end up with is a situation in Bolivia with the water privatization : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_privatization_in_Bolivia

But that was just silly in its own regards. (it's also why water as a commodity in and of itself will never work. Not when you're talking of something constantly in motion that can be collected as it falls to the ground…)

The worst is the war of ideologies. The 9/11 attacks were utterly successful. For the cost of a handful of men, it completely crushed a nation financially and created more fear than could be handled.

Hell, to this day, I still go into NYC once a month. I take a bus that nobody checks to Port Authority where I might see a handful of soldiers every now and then, but they're just for show. I take a subway train (the C or the E) which makes crucial stops at Port Authority, Penn Station, and The World Trade Center. Let's not discuss how easy acts of terrorism truly are.

But here's the thing. even though we caught the guy, it doesn't mean anything. there's still hundreds of others out there willing to do the same. And they aren't identifiable by nation, by race, by social class. It's all an ideology. And ideas aren't something you can identify a person by.

In a way, Even though this new warfare is a lot less bloody, it is a HELL of a lot scarier than just dropping bombs.

Everything's so caught up in the mental/ethereal these days, and humans are so poorly equipped to deal with it.

It's kind of ironic in a way. During the 40's and 50's we TRULY opened pandora's box. First with the splitting of the atom, and then in the late 50's with the concept of the internet (though it took till the 70's to create the WWW.)(Also, the mobile phone? 1946. Electronic computer? 1940-45. Television was much earlier, but didn't become available to the masses till the 40's… )

I'm not trying to put out there any crazy conspiracy theories though. It's just that I see how things sort of trend, and it makes me want to disconnect myself as much as I can afford to…

Anyhow, it's really late and I should call it a night.

We'll see how crazy this topic gets again in the morning.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

You maybe right about the bombs.

I knew a guy, dead now, cancer, whose sister was married to a guy that died in the World Trade Center. The sis and hubby were neighbors to some Islamics. They had dinners back and forth and were good friends. She would occasionally run into him, the neighbor, at the mail box in the morning.

On the morning of 911, her husband called asking her to bring something to the office. She mentioned this to the Islamic guy when they happened to meet a the mail box. He told her not to go today. Before she got ready and left, the TV was showing the towers burning. She never left home. She lost her husband that day. When she got her wits about herself in a few days, she recalled what the neighbor had said. She called the authorities. They came, the house was empty as if they had never been there!! You have to wonder how many more there are amongst us, US?

The only time I was ever to NY was passing through to Ottawa to shoot in the World Long Range Black Powder Championships. That was a lot of fun shooting on the American team. The Canadians won, we were 2nd and Brits were 3rd. I still treasure my Ottawa Arms Collectors 1,000 yard Black Powder Bulls-eye Patch ;-))

I suppose I could have said that like the Russian paper, Pravda, told the Russians about Bobby Fisher beating Boris Spassky in the world chess tournament. They reported Boris finishing second and Bobby finishing next to last. No mention they were the only two playing ;-))

When I was working around Seatac, any fool could see security was a joke. I can only hope it is better now, but I doubt it. Just show and blow for the public. i was there to pick up my daughter and grandson one night when all the planes were an hour or more late. Of course, when i left home to get them teh airlines website did not say that it had not left NV yet, it said "on time." I got into a discussion with Seatac security about their half assed operation when he was giving me a bad time about stopping to pick her up. I asked why they didn't simply post a note on their reader board that the planes were an hour late? He said they didn't have that info from the airlines. I asked why not make it a condition of their lease to provide it or kick them out until they do? No response. How can you maintain a secure facility if you don't have the information to anticipate situations that arise such as this with lots of congestion and no control? No response a 2nd time. That was before 911. I would probably end up in jail for sassing one of their rent-a-cops today ;-))

Anyone who is prepared to take care of themselves and family during times of national emergency is a fool, IMO.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*What Obama wants to do is take the motivation of doing more or investing away from the American people*

Do you really believe that? Why?


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## Flyin636 (Jul 29, 2011)

Generally stay out of politics…...was watching some show the other day and a Harvard PHD historian/economist was making an observation.

Looking back over US,congressional history….he said that there were four distinct "periods"....(1820,late 1850's,1920,1970's)...where there was the most "devision" in congress.IOWs,the gap between Right and Left were at their widest…....right now is quickly adding up to one of these nodes.Just thought it an interesting way to rationalize/categorize the problems in congress.BW


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

The University of Texas (or one of the big Texas colleges) bought $1billion worth of gold bars a while back. Most of the governments in the world are quietly buying gold. I suspect quite a few institutions are quietly buying it. The reason gold is worth over $1600 is because the value of the dollar has fallen. Gold is not going up - the value of all the fiat currencies are dropping relative to gold. Every nation in the history of the world that has ever taken up the use of fiat currency has seen the practice end in disaster. Practically all modern countries have taken up the use of it and they're all in the process of inflating it away. It's just the nature of fiat money; they can't resist the temptation to create more of it.This is why we may be seeing the early stages of a collapse of the whole global financial system that will make the Great Depression look like fun and games.

The banks are leveraged to the hilt and there are a lot of worthless assets on their books. The world's GNP is something like $50 Trillion. However, the derivatives in the world are somewhere between $250 Trillion to $650 Trillion depending where you get the figures from. A lot of these are worthless and a lot of the 'geniuses' that created them don't even know how they are going to work in a situation like this. Warren Buffet called derivatives 'financial weopons of mass destruction'. This whole situation has come about buy the greed of politicians, bankers, financial institutions, and large corporations. We may very well be facing the perfect financial storm because of it.


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## NH_Hermit (Dec 3, 2009)

Topa, "Bush, the dumbest". I like that.

I told myself in 2004 that it would take years, possibly generations, for America to overcome the errors of that administration.

I was angry then, but now I am furious.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

You have to remember that we're not talking about the actual printing of money here. Much of it is simply based on debt and various forms of government notes. 'Printing of money' is just an expression. You also hear other terms for it: 'monetizing the debt', 'quantitative easing', 'QE1', 'QE2'. Some money is actually created in the lending process.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

"What makes people work harder and invest is the chance to become rich or at least better off. What Obama wants to do is take the motivation of doing more or investing away from the American people. The risk the greater the potential reward, without risk there is very little reward."

Could you show me where I can find effective tax rate-based on total income-by income level ?

Until then, more bumper-sticker blather. Seriously. What if the goal is to have them pay roughly the same % of THEIR income as the middle class does ?

Is that REALLY a significant disincentive to achievement ? Really ??


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

Topa:

*"I totally agree there are many regulations impeding business activity. Are they bad? Depends if you want to live like the Chinese where everyone is hacking and spitting constantly because of the air pollution? One hell of a price to pay for their 'success'! Should the people of St Louis be drinking raw sewage from Minneapolis? Should New Orleans be a cesspool? A few of these laws are necessary."*

I didn't say do away with the laws they've passed… Continue to enforce them IN A SANE AND INTELLIGENT MANNER.

I think they have Run Out of ways to improve our environment… When they start thinking about telling us what Color of car we can buy based on some ill-thought-out lame brained idea, that going TOO FAR!!

They are too big… doing very little… starting to try to do more harm than good… I say knock them back, if not just remove them… but continue to enforce the laws in place. Given the length of time they have been in existence, I don't think there should be ANY city or town drinking Sewer water. If that is the case, the EPA has NOT been doing their job!


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## REK (Aug 30, 2009)

Congress spending is just nuts:

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/player.swf


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

Cute…

I think they forgot to mention the Aid to foreign squirrels is also continuing to be paid… 
(and not getting much from it)...


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Joe:
I don't want to burst your bubble on foreign aid, but it is not all that it appears to be. During my 3 + years in Africa, I saw first hand "some" of the US aid which would surprise you - it did me. It is invariably not cash that is sent, but maybe food and materials, some needed, some not.
Cases in point I witnessed first hand:
An African country receives a boat load of ballpoint pens.
An Catholic African country receives a boat load of contraceptives.

So what really happens?
The US government has a program that is a clearing house for crap we don't want or can't sell, vendors get reasonable money for providing them, sometimes by way of tax credits. The Government prices this crap at its original retail price to donate, thus $50000.00 could be ballpoint pens or contraceptives.
So what happens to the donation? Ball point pens can't feed the population, so that country sells the donation off for a pittance on the $, which is often purchased by some US importer of crap. So once again it enters the US market for sale. Not a bad scheme when you think about it, sell your crap to the Government, they give as an aid item, and we can import it again for resale.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

OK, I guess there is a lot of good things happening…

What I was thinking about was pure $$$ or food, etc. being 'given' to a country for human Aid only to be intercepted by corrupt leadership using it for their Personal benefit… resulting in very lavish homes, etc. etc. ... and laughing at us all the way to the bank!

That should be stopped… immediately! ... Not Tomorrow… Today…

Thank you for popping my bubble… I'm glad something good is happening out there!


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

This was sent to me by a friend in Australia…
He says he thinks they have the same problem in Australia!


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*Topa, "Bush, the dumbest". I like that*

It is great ;-) but I can't take credit. Someone else in this thread called 41, the smarter or 43, the dumber or something like that. I loved it and plagiarized immediately. I should have congratulated him right away. Sorry to whom ever it was.

*four distinct "periods"....(1820,late 1850's,1920,1970's)...where there was the most "devision" in congress.IOWs,the gap between Right and Left were at their widest…....right now is quickly adding up to one of these*

I was just thinking the other day we are at a level of tension that begat the Civil War. Now it is the R party. Then it was in the D party. If the Ds had not divided, Lincoln would never have been president and the War probably would not have started at the scale it did. The Border States like Kansas were in a state of war in the 1850s. So a lot would have happened anyway, but not the epic battles with 50,000 killed in a day. I have always wondered why the poor men of the south took up the battles of the rich plantation owners. They did not really have a dog in that fight. The north drafted many, but there were a lot of volunteers too, without a dog in the fight. Slavery would have ended within another couple of decades anyway, war or no.

In the 1820s, Andy Jackson did a lot for the working class to keep the banks in line and under control. Exactly what Obama needs to be doing now. If Andy's relative (don't remember who,) hadn't been killed by Indians, he might not have hated them so. The Trail Of Tears may not have happened. There are people in the south today that will not take a 20 dollar bill because his picture is on it!! ;-)

*Charles*, it is better than printing money, just a few strokes on a keyboard ;-)) It would be funny if it weren't so tragic.

*Joe* There is no doubt there are abuses of environmental laws; doesn't matter what we enact, some scumbag will abuse it for his own personal agenda.


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## lwllms (Jun 1, 2009)

Joe,

I'm much less offended by little Kevin not standing for the Pledge than by Republican efforts to gut the VA health care system. Wrap yourself in the freaking flag while those injured by being sent into harms way by the Government go without the care their injuries require. VA health care will take a big hit when the congressional "Super Committee" finishes up about Thanksgiving. What are you doing about that?

http://www.disabledveterans.org/2011/04/16/republicans-seek-to-cut-1-3-million-veterans/

http://militaryadvantage.military.com/2011/04/healthcare-cuts-loom-for-130000-vets/


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*lwllms:*

*I'm much less offended by little Kevin not standing for the Pledge than by Republican efforts to gut the VA health care system. Wrap yourself in the freaking flag while those injured by being sent into harms way by the Government go without the care their injuries require. VA health care will take a big hit when the congressional "Super Committee" finishes up about Thanksgiving. What are you doing about that?*

I was not aware of the Vets getting screwed on their health care… To me, they, above all should get taken care of!
I really don't know much about what they were promised, what they got, what they are getting, or what changes are in the works.

I would suggest that ALL of the Vets *that know what's going on,* get on Radio Talk shows and TOOT YOUR HORN… making it known to the rest of us. Rush Limbaugh (whether you like him or not) I think would pull for the Vets & help in any way he could.

Good Luck!


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Don't you remember Obama saying they should take care of their own injuries and disabilities. After all , they volunteered to serve. He wanted to save a few bucks, cut the deficit, don't ya know!!


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## lwllms (Jun 1, 2009)

"Don't you remember Obama saying they should take care of their own injuries and disabilities. After all , they volunteered to serve. He wanted to save a few bucks, cut the deficit, don't ya know!!"

No, don't remember any such thing. Are you sure you aren't confusing Obama with Michelle Bach­mann??


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

Topa:

*"Don't you remember Obama saying they should take care of their own injuries and disabilities. After all , they volunteered to serve. He wanted to save a few bucks, cut the deficit, don't ya know!!"*

I forgot that…

NOW…

I think Congress should take this as a very valuable precedent and start changing all kinds of things…

*Like:*

"*As a result of President Obama setting the precedent with the Veterans Administration, effective immediately, Everyone that has volunteered to run for any Government office will now have to take care of their own Health Insurance… No more FREE Healthcare… After all, they Volunteered for the Office!* "

Have a good day! LOL

In fact, I will send a message to the Speaker of the House to get the Ball rolling!

edit:
I just sent the following message to The Speaker:
-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-
Dear Mr Speaker,

As a result of learning more of our President Obama 'wants', I have drafted the following proposal. I think you will agree with me.

============
As a result of President Obama setting the precedent with the Veterans Administration by saying "they should take care of themselves… After all, they volunteered for the Service.", effective immediately, Everyone that has volunteered to run for any Government office will now have to take care of their own Health Insurance… No more FREE Healthcare… After all, they Volunteered for the Office!
============

Thank you for taking immediate action on this issue!

All of the Veterans that risked their lives Protecting All of Us, and getting injured in the process, really need the Health Care to help them heal & handle their injuries.

By the way, I think we should give President Obama FULL credit for coming up with this wonderful idea… Don't you?

Sincerely,
Joseph Lyddon
-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-
Now, if they Do It, it will all be the result of this message I sent him! LOL (kidding)


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

*Joe*, I'm sure they will be able to take care of all sorts of things more quickly since they have put the Super Congress into effect. ;-|


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## jeepturner (Oct 3, 2010)

"Obama said "Nobody made these guys go to war. They had to have known and accepted the risks. Now they whine about bearing the costs of their choice? It doesn't compute… I thought these were people who were proud to sacrifice for their country. I wasn't asking for blood, just money. With the country facing the worst financial crisis in its history, I'd have thought that the patriotic thing to do would be to try to help reduce the nation's deficit. I guess I underestimated the selfishness of some of my fellow Americans. - Fiction! & Satire!

Not a fan of Obama, but spreading rumors without checking the facts is silly. 
Topa, we are close in geography, but closer yet in politics, I think.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

Darn, I got sucked into another hoax!

I know, It's all Topa's fault… Right?!

No, I should have checked it out…

Well, let's see if the Speaker checks it out… will be interesting…

Sure sorry I did it though…


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## jeepturner (Oct 3, 2010)

Joe, If you were the first, I would be surprised. I don't think there is anyone alive who hasn't somehow participated in the rumor mill of untruths and fidgety facts that make up the internet. No worries, I wasn't trying to call anyone out.

I had to check the quote though, if it were true I could show it to my wife…....... Now that's another story.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

jeep…

If I had received that in an Email, I would have checked it out!

I don't know why… I thought this was different… LOL


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## lwllms (Jun 1, 2009)

"...but when put to practice it was the single reason for the market failure…"

It couldn't have had anything to do with deregulation. Maybe not even the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act that gutted the Glass-Steagall Act of 1933 nor the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995. Clinton vetoed the second of these and should have vetoed the first. Clinton's veto message proved more than just prophetic. Unfortunately the veto was overridden which is probably why Clinton didn't veto the gutting of Glass-Steagall. I'm sure Wall Street's unrestrained fraud, corruption and anything goes for short-term profits attitude had nothing to do with the collapse


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## BobTheFish (May 31, 2011)

Not really CR1.

Usually just want people happy, enjoying life, and leaving me pretty much alone to do what I want (and I don't mean the government. I mean the people around me. I take a s#!t at night, and the next day I swear people could probably tell me just what it smelled like and its overall consistency. I like being unimportant and not worth noticing.)

In my darker hours though, at that bewitching time between 1AM and 2AM, when the uglies come out, What I really want is for each and every individual to suffer every bit of nastiness they inflict upon one another to whatever degree is necessary that they are forever marked by it and, by rememberance, never do it again.

Vengeance and retribution in the form of karmic balance has never been something I opposed.

The closest, however, that I ever see happening is in the form of the phrase, "be careful what you wish for…"

Again, I'd still rather just drop out of the whole mess and live far from the maddening crowds… Preferrably hidden amongst the saner crowds.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

It is NOT a hoax!
Jeepturner did you read the top section of the link you provided?

The Obama administration plans to require private insurance carriers to reimburse the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) for the treatment service related injuries of military personnel *-Truth! - but Cancelled*

from your link -
*The Truth:* 
On March16, 2009, members of the American Legion met with President Obama where he discussed "a proposal to force private insurance companies to pay for the treatment of military veterans who have suffered service-connected disabilities and injuries." The non-profit veterans service organization, American Legion, issued a statement voicing its concerns on its web site shortly after the meeting. Click here for statement.

Commander David K. Rehbein of The American Legion said that Obama " is looking to generate $540-million by this method, but refused to hear arguments about the moral and government-avowed obligations that would be compromised by it."

A March 17, 2009 CNN article said the "chairman of the Senate Committee on Veterans' Affairs vowed Tuesday that the plan would never gain the panel's approval. 'VA's sacred duty is to care for veterans injured in honorable service to our nation, and the department should not turn to wounded warriors' private insurance to pay for combat injures,' said Sen. Daniel Akaka, D-Hawaii. 'Under my chairmanship, the Veterans' Affairs Committee will not advance any such legislation.'"

On the afternoon of March 18, 2009 Fox News reported that the Obama administration has changed their mind on this plan.

This ABSOLUTLY was BO's plan during the healtcare debate - but it got shot down. It does show that Obama holds our nations veterans and sees their sacrifice as about the level of Whale Dung,* as nobody that actually supports this country would have proposed this in the first place*


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

"the sine qua non for the collapse of 08 was the policy of ensuring that no person would be denied home ownership."

I had a past life in mortgage banking.

The lenders were *screaming* for regulations to be relaxed, so that they could make more loans, and more money.

The precursors to the subprime mortgage meltdown included those who sold them being compensated *additionally* for selling things like pre-payment penalty/no prepayment loans, along with the better known liar loans, alt-a's, neg-am's, etc.

"Creative financing."

The legislative part wasn't really a mandate to increase home ownership. Like most things, it was a push for the banking industry to make more money.

The repeal of Glass-Steagall (under Clinton, and executed by way of Gramm-Leach-Billey) was one of the "beginning of the end" moves.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Neil in the late 90's the New York Times (hardly right wing) had many stories that the Clinton Administration was pushing Fannie Mae to lower credit terms…. Just wondering how much was "top Down"

Like - - http://www.nytimes.com/1999/09/30/business/fannie-mae-eases-credit-to-aid-mortgage-lending.html
Fannie Mae, the nation's biggest underwriter of home mortgages, has been under increasing pressure from the Clinton Administration to expand mortgage loans among low and moderate income people and felt pressure from stock holders to maintain its phenomenal growth in profits.

In moving, even tentatively, into this new area of lending, Fannie Mae is taking on significantly more risk, which may not pose any difficulties during flush economic times. *But the government-subsidized corporation may run into trouble in an economic downturn, prompting a government rescue *similar to that of the savings and loan industry in the 1980's.

This was in 1999 - more than a year before Bush was elected, nevermind took office.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

They do what they do-in large part-at the behest of those who pays them: lobbyists and campaign contributors.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

Well, since the Credit Rating being lowered by S&P, there has been a lot of talk… The Washington Democrats are actually blaming the Republicans for it… as they didn't want to Compromise!

What a LAME excuse! Neither side was doing any Compromising … but, when the * 'Show' * was almost over, someone compromised a little to get something happening. I just HATE those damned lying SOB's (politicians) continually Blaming Someone for this or THAT! Why can't they just shut-up and do the job?!

Now, they say S&P goofed with the figures! Pure BULL… S&P is not going to make and publicize any major decision of this magnitude without making sure they are correct! Some Power is being placed in the right places… I think S&P was correct with their reported assessment Everything they said was TRUE!

Well, when Gold opened for trading for the week, it GAP-jumped to $1690… leveled off a tad… then jumped again to $1700 … a new historic HIGH!

Silver was a little slower to react... opening at $38.50 and very slowly drifting up a little… then, jumped from around $39.50 to almost $40.50!

I wonder what the stock market will do in the morning… Might fall like another rock… wouldn't be surprised.

This is history in the making… and we were there!


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## wseand (Jan 27, 2010)




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## SCR0LL3R (May 28, 2010)

I hate when the word socialism is used like it were the devil incarnate. Anybody that throws around that word at everything in disgust is either already quite wealthy or they are determined that they can reach that carrot that's being dangled in front of them if they just try hard enough. The problem is that the wealth usually comes at the expense of someone else in one way or another in the capitalist system… and the less morals you have, the easier it is for you to amass wealth… What a great trait to be rewarded for!


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

I wish we had another man like Ronald Reagan… He had vision… He knew what was coming… He tried to get things in order to protect us the best way he could.

He had the intestinal fortitude (aka Guts) to do the right thing no matter how many liberals, etc. disagreed with him.

He was truly a great man… We miss him today…

Thank you for posting that link… That was good…


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## wseand (Jan 27, 2010)

Come on aren't they the same thing. You don't think that in a social system there wouldn't be the same issue. I prefer to have the freedom of a Capitalistic society. No I am not wealthy. There are a lot of more wealthy honest people out there then not.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

If I missed it slightly, it is just another Topamax moment ;-(( Lucky I recovered as much as I have ;-)) Sure would like to find one of those attys who does frivolous malpractice, I have a real one for him. Out of 50, they all said justice comes with a price and it will be at least $400,000. I wasn't willing to make that kind of a bet that justice would prevail, it usually does not if you don't have more money than the other guy and I am way behind insurance companies. ;-((

I'll be gone for a day or 2, have fun ;-))


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## wseand (Jan 27, 2010)

Hey Joe,
I was born a few years after this speech, but have always respected him.


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## SCR0LL3R (May 28, 2010)

I agree that there are socialist ideas that are very poorly implemented and maybe some that just flat out can't work, but this every man for himself and letting the greedy trample on everybody is absolutely not the answer.


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## SCR0LL3R (May 28, 2010)

Wasn't Reagan the one to get this economic mess started in the first place? He's certainly one of the big contributors.

Right now its like a race to the bottom with places like Walmart, McDonalds and tons more big chains that pay everybody the absolute minimum required by law and limiting hours with all their employees so that they aren't considered full time and they don't get vacation pay or any other benefits. At least let the damn poor folk work a full work week… I mean c'mon! There is no limit to what you will do to increase the bottom line when you have no morals…. It's nothing personal… just business!

I know, I know, they should just get a better job right? Those are getting fewer and farther between.


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## wseand (Jan 27, 2010)

I certainly agree with that Keith, but that has nothing to do with Capitalism. That is just greedy immoral turds. We have a government that turns their cheeks and regulatory entities the are overwhelmed. We have a broken tax system, an over inflated realty market. We have a market that can cripple our economy in a day. Fear is what drives our economy and the decisions our government makes. Maybe some of the corporations are too large. I wish I had the answers Keith. We are such a young country with a lot of burden that we placed on our selves. A country can be depressed just like a person. We are struggling to keep our heads above the waves and shame on those taking advantage of the week. Should we hold our government for our problems, maybe? I try not to blame but hope our government tries to make the right decisions best for the people and not for them.


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## wseand (Jan 27, 2010)

Right Keith, all the Democrats want to blame him. It is always easy to blame someone. It doesn't matter who started it right now, it is important to fix our problems what ever they are or whomever created them. How is this current Gov. going to fix things, they aren't, the people need to. We are a free society, well at the moment we are.


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## SCR0LL3R (May 28, 2010)

At this point freedom is fading. Look at the bailout 2 years ago. People in overwhelming numbers wrote to the congressmen to reject the bailout… so they did… then 3 days later, voted again and passed it. Who really has the power? At this point in time it's not the people.

But you can always go to your local "Free speech zone" and protest!


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## wseand (Jan 27, 2010)

The theory was that the corporations were so far gone and they were such an intricate part of our economy that it was necessary to give the bailouts. Was it necessary I don't know but it is too late to change it. What we have the power to do is vote the one in favor of it out at the next election. You have to decide if the votes your Senators and Representatives made were destructive enough to vote them out. Do we even have a descent enough pool of candidates to choose from or are we only choosing the lessor of the evils. Most of the time I hope who ever I voted for doesn't do too much damage that we can't recover from it.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

"There are a lot of more wealthy honest people out there then not."

Interesting.

Would you mind citing your source for this statistic ?

Thanks.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

Yep, Walmart, McDonalds, etc. are Slime Balls because they use the laws to their benefit.

Is a person a Slime Ball if they try to save money and is very frugal in doing so?

If I see some wood being thrown away in the trash, possibly being a pallet, I would put it into my truck & take it home. Maybe I beat someone else from getting it who needed it more than me. Would I be Slime Ball for putting it into my truck so I could make something from it?

If anyone invested in Tax Free Municipal Bonds that pay a great return Federal & State Income Tax Free and, as a result, didn't pay ANY income taxes, would you call the person a Slime Ball too… for just using the laws to their benefit??

Tax Free Muni's have been declared Tax FREE in order to create an incentive for investors to buy them… They help Cities get the money to improve themselves (then, they raise taxes to pay for them.  ).

The Investor has the 'choice' to invest in them or not.

The person, looking for a job (opportunity), also has the choice of applying for a job at WalMart, McDonalds, etc. etc. I'm sure that they KNOW about the Company policies, etc. & how they do business… BUT, they do it anyway because they WANT to (or maybe Have To, to eat). There is obviously a market for their jobs… or people would not take them… I agree… It's a Slime Ball way of using the laws… but, it's legal & people accept & APPLY for them. If people would get together and REJECT their practices AND their jobs, the Companies would have to BEND OVER and change in order to continue business… BUT….

So, who do you call a Slime Ball now?

If the laws were changed, because the Government thinks they're Slime Balls too, closing the loopholes with other values and requirements, the Companies, in order to comply, may have to Raise their prices to cover the additional costs… or Let Go enough people to balance out the Jobs where they have to keep, at increased costs for benefits, etc.. They would have less people doing the same jobs… working longer & getting all of the benefits, etc. so they cannot be called Slime Balls anymore. I don't know… but, they'd have to probably Lay OFF 25%-30% of the "Part time" employees so they could Pay for the higher-cost jobs they are forced to pay for, BY LAW.

Hey, if Part Time jobs were deemed illegal, it could be worse than that!

So, who do you call a Slime Ball now?


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## SCR0LL3R (May 28, 2010)

Nope Mr. Lyddon… They aren't slimeballs… Its nothing personal, it's just business. If the law lets me do it, then it's ok. If the law doesn't allow me to do it but I can afford to pay to have the law changed, then that would be ok as well.


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## SCR0LL3R (May 28, 2010)

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune500/2010/snapshots/2255.html

Think they are passing the savings on to the customer? Or lining pockets off of the backs of their employees?

They are only doing as much as needed of the first, to ensure the most of the second.


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## wseand (Jan 27, 2010)

Neil, 
I don't have one Neil. Do you really think there might be one out there somewhere. I know several wealthy honest people. I know a few not so ethical. Ultra wealthy don't know any. Let me know if you find a wealthy dirtbag statistic. Most people only think the wealthy are corrupt because they can't fathom how they got there without being corrupt.


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## SCR0LL3R (May 28, 2010)

Depends on what you define as corrupt. Doing illegal stuff? Maybe not… Doing immoral stuff… Well of course, as long at it's "just business" . This is assuming that just because something is legal doesn't make it morally ok. I know some people don't share this belief.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

an interesting article.


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## owl (Jul 13, 2009)

Keith I love your first comment. "The problem is that the wealth usually comes at the expense of someone else in one way or another in the capitalist system… and the less morals you have, the easier it is for you to amass wealth… " I assume that whatever line of work your in you do it for free. Surely a person as moral as you wouldnt ask to be paid. That would make you less moral than the person without a job. I think your midset makes you feel better about yourself that you are not wealthy. You tell yourself your a better person because you dont have money. There are plenty of people out there that are good at what they do and make an honest living without compromising their morals. By the way how much money does general give you to include that scroll saw in your picture. 
ed


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

Sorry, but *I* don't know how they make/made their money, and neither do you.

That's the point.

You think stories like this one-billionaire dies-was under SEC investigation for evasion and insider trading-are rare, or more like … rarely unearthed ?

http://news.yahoo.com/texas-billionaire-charles-wyly-killed-colo-084619180.html

I don't know.

If you do, I'd be fascinated to hear how.

"I think your midset makes you feel better about yourself that you are not wealthy. You tell yourself your a better person because you dont have money."

That's very facile, and self-serving, but doesn't contradict what I said. I'm NOT talking about people with six-figure incomes, either. I'm talking about the biggest wealth holders in our country.

If you think you know that they were fair, honest, and ethical, please explain how you know that.

Again: I simply don't know, one way or the other. Not much, besides ideology, drives a closely-held opinion, devoid of any true info…...


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## SCR0LL3R (May 28, 2010)

There is always a wealth transfer scheme on the go. A lot (but not all) goes up the food chain. Capitalism says that this is how it should be and everything is hunky-dory. Some money does go down the food chain to poor (whether they are deserving of it or not). These are the ones that you chose to point your class warfare guns at. This just seems backwards in my eyes.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

"It is the wealthy who pay almost all the taxes"

Again: what % ??

What % of their total incomes do they pay in Federal Income Taxes ?

Is it more than you and me, or less than you and me, and … how do you know ?

Ideology over facts…....


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## SCR0LL3R (May 28, 2010)

"...Surely a person as moral as you wouldnt ask to be paid. That would make you less moral than the person without a job. I think your midset makes you feel better about yourself that you are not wealthy…."

What a brilliant conclusion… You have me figured out. There is a difference between making a living and amassing a fortune. I don't begrudge any working class person with more money than me. I am talking about the ones with enough of a fortune that they use it to call the shots and make the rules. Rules that benefit them and hurt the majority.


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## wseand (Jan 27, 2010)

I have to agree with you Keith. The lines get crossed all the time, but it sure doesn't mean every wealthy person does it. 
Should a company pay for expensive benefits for their employees. Who decides this for them. If I pay you 10 dollars an hour to greet people at the door, is that not enough for you. Why should a company pay for your health benefits and time off. Its not a god given right, it is a benefit, a bargaining chip. People have confused benefits with rights as an employee. Don't expect a company to pay your way through college, support your entire family, and get half herted work out of you in return. The company is taking all the risk. If they do well should they give back to the employee, that is up to them. I have always said if you don't like the company don't work there and don't patrinize them. Don't expect a company to change for you because you are unhappy. If they are abusing you then stand up and say something. You should get what your worth and only the company decides that, many people think they are worth far than they really are.


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## BobTheFish (May 31, 2011)

Yawn…..

Sooo….

Another 500pt loss today? It's currently at -350ish…


Glad I don't have any stocks.

Instead, Oil's slowly going down, dollar's getting a LITTLE stronger…

Life is good.


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## SCR0LL3R (May 28, 2010)

Once every company pays like that, what choice will we have. We are headed in that direction. Provided there are any jobs at all. Leaving it up to the corporation to decide what we should get is, like I said earlier, a race to the bottom. People that work hard and do good work at many such places don't get even the slightest reward for doing so.

If you have the time. Watch this video series for some food for thought. The productivity to wage gap that he talks about is very interesting.






PS. I don't know if this was linked earlier or not


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

Scrollr:
*
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune500/2010/snapshots/2255.html

Think they are passing the savings on to the customer? Or lining pockets off of the backs of their employees?

They are only doing as much as needed of the first, to ensure the most of the second.*

===============================================

*They are a Corporation… 
They have Stockholders who Own the Company… 
They have a Board of Directors to direct the Company on behalf of the Owners, the Stockholders.*

Employees, it might be said, are like tools to help the Company function, to make money for the Stockholders (Owners)... The employees are usually paid a fair Wage or Salary for their hard work as well as possibly receiving benefits. They are usually the highest total Cost that the Company has to pay in order to function.

The main purpose for the Company is to Pay the Owners (Stockholders) a very good benefit (the Owners have made this clear).

The Board of Directors, being human, *may *decide to pay the employees a Christmas Bonus for doing an exceptional job OR they *may not.*.. depending on how they feel about it… They are NOT obligated to pay them any more than they have for their services rendered & paid for. They may decide to give them 'raises'... or they may not… same reason.

The Board of Directors will decide how much the Company can pay the Stockholders (Owners) for their important part of the Company (they supplied the Capital to let the Company function)... usually in the form of Dividends. They usually keep a good part of the profits so they can continue operations and to grow, etc. The Stockholders get paid… If they do not get paid as much as they think they should, they may tell the Board that they don't like it & they want more… the Board would probably say, sorry, can't be done at this time… So, the Stockholder, who doesn't like it, sells out & leaves the Company (someone else buys his shares). The action of the Board will also consider the number of shares involved in the GRIPE… and that may turn the Board…

That's the way the Mop Flops…

A good Company will usually want to KEEP their employees happy and content because if they're happy and content, they will do a good job to make everyone else happy… I also think that most Stockholders think the same way BUT, when a certain Line gets close to being crossed appearing to be just GREED, the Stockholders will say NO.

A long time ago… A milk company called Carnation, had a slogan… "The Home of Contented Cows" or "Milk from Contented Cows"... something like that… They kept their cows happy and content… I think they even played nice music while they were being milked! Without that, they would not have a business… Priorities are Priorities… and the Board of Directors is usually smart enough to what the Priority rankings are.

If the Company can provide a Quality Product cheaper than anyone else and ALSO make a handsome profit, that is a WIN, WIN combination that usually spells SUCCESS.


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## SCR0LL3R (May 28, 2010)

"A good Company will usually want to KEEP their employees happy and content because if they're happy and content, they will do a good job to make everyone else happy…"

So I guess if you can set it up so that people are happy being paid in table scraps by keeping them in a situation where it's table scraps or go starving, then all the power to you.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*
"So I guess if you can set it up so that people are happy being paid in table scraps by keeping them in a situation where it's table scraps or go starving, then all the power to you." 
*

===========================================

The employee always has the *FREE Choice* of being on the lookout for a better job or something better… and taking it when the opportunity arises.

The employee can always SUGGEST to Management that certain things be changed…

If the Company does NOT have a Suggestion Box, suggest that they get one… If they refuse, you now know the writing on the wall… to look and get out.

If a request is honored as an improvement that Management likes, they may change… Sometimes, it takes an employee to say something to inform Management about something that they have completely overlooked… Sometimes an employee will get paid a handsome reward or even a promotion as that type of action…

*BUT*, if the employee comes across as mad, defiant, and wanting unreasonable things, in the eyes of Management, the employee may be looking at hard time. The employee should not do that… They are still the BOSS.

I would suggest that the employee try to make the Company better so it can make more money, etc., etc. The rest will follow…


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## SCR0LL3R (May 28, 2010)

My last job was nowhere near as bad as Walmart, but still it was made abundantly clear that I was not paid to think and my opinion should be kept to myself. I think most suggestion boxes are just a hollow token with no purpose but to make the employee feel like they are being heard. The management doesn't want to hear your opinion (hence the suggestion box), what makes you think they aer going to take the time to read it?

My whole point, is that the choice to go elsewhere ( I don't mean sideways, I mean someplace better ) is slowly being pulled out of the hands of a greater portion of the general public. This is what happens when there is not enough regulation ( regulation that you would probably refer to as socialism ) to protect those that are currently at a disadvantage from being forced to stay where they are at in order to benefit the CEO's and the investors.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

In my humble opinion, neither socialism or communism has ever worked very well. It takes away too much of the individual's incentive to work hard and does the same to those who want to start small businesses. Top down planning and managing never works as well as millions and millions of independent and free people making millions of decisions in their own interest in a free market place. A certain amount of greed and selfishness is a good thing. However, too much is a bad thing so there must be some regulation and there should be a just judicial and legal system to protect every individual whether rich or poor.

However, too much regulation is not good either. Contrary to what most people think large corporations want too much regulation because it cuts down on their competition. A large corporation can bare the cost of heavy regulation. They can usually just put the cost of regulation into the price of their product and pass it onto their customers. However, the smaller corporations cannot easily bare the burden of heavy regulation. In some markets it just keeps them out altogether. So what happens in a lot of markets you end up with a small number of large corporations that dominate it so you end up with an effective 'monopoly' or I suppose cartel.


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## BobTheFish (May 31, 2011)

Joe, when you're a machinist, for example, and you're getting $10 an hour, and EVERY OTHER FACTORY pays $10 an hour for your skill, and you need $15 an hour to live, then there's little "choice" in getting another job. In an economy with 10% or greater unemployment, there's little "choice" in getting another job.

So you take what you get, even if its only table scraps. It doesn't mean its fair. It doesn't mean you're happy. You just do what you have to do.

The original purpose of labor unions (say what you will of them now, but I'm talking 1890's here) was to gather together with enough power to effect a change for the workers. The owners, whom still had vastly more than what they needed or what anyone else might have had, still fought long and hard, saying "our table scraps are enough". They were fine with children dying at 12, 13, 14, 15, 16… They still made money.

And yeah, the owners and the workers are both greedy bastards. They're human. The point has always been to rise above it.

helluvawreck, communism is just stupid. It's too idealistic in its theory, thinking that everyone is just going to do "the right thing" and as a communal government, divvy up the labor and the fruits of the labor equally. In practice, everything is owned via the government, and the people in charge of the government decide what's what. It always leads to totalitarianism, because, SOMEONE has to decide how to divvy up the spoils, and that person is rarely as pure as snow.

All governments are a mixture of socialism and capitalism, the ones leaning more towards socialism may have their faults, but the advantage they have is that if they do things right, they have the ability to provide all their citizen with the basic necessities for life, regulate commerce JUUUUUUUUST enough to keep capitalism in control, (no huge disparities between the classes, but enough to hit what economists tend to call the sweet spot where there's incentive to work harder and get ahead, but not enough that the lower classes feel crushed and class mobility is impossible). The capitalist aspects of the country keep the socialist aspects in check, creating the disparities, through the profit motive, and the desire to create and own luxuries, (after all, that's what wealth is primarily used for), which drives innovation.

Mixed economies fall apart, however, when the socialist aspects no longer participate in checking the capitalist aspects, but instead favor either the lower end (as some European countries) or the higher end (as in the US) of the economic spectrum. Favor the lowest, and nobody has the desire to work, no innovation, and so on. Favor the higher end, you get rampant corruption, ecological disaster, and millions of people without work or below poverty levels.

Neither works.

Honestly, I'd rather see an economist in office, rather than a businessperson or a politician.

EDIT2:
I also totally get what you mean about a corporation wanting too much regulation. Actually a corporation wants too much intellectual property regulation,(which allows them to hold and own certain innovations and stifle the ideas that might grow out of their ideas in the hands of a competitor), and very little regulation in regards to their production and/or profit. It's a distinction worth making, because these days, monsato's probably VERY happy they can copyright a genome, but might be pissy about regulations regarding agricultural runoff in the streams.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*
"My whole point, is that the choice to go elsewhere ( I don't mean sideways, I mean someplace better ) is slowly being pulled out of the hands of a greater portion of the general public. This is what happens when there is not enough regulation ( regulation that you would probably refer to as socialism ) to protect those that are currently at a disadvantage from being forced to stay where they are at in order to benefit the CEO's and the investors." 
*

=====================================

Are you saying *"If there were more Regulations, I would not have a problem finding another job."?*

Keith, right now, I'd say you're between a rock and a hard place BECAUSE of the *Economy*... AND a *crappy employer*... * NOT the lack of Regulations!*

Your employer obviously doesn't care about their employees and only thinks they're machines to do a job… and they're so Closed Minded that they think they Know It ALL… I would be OUTTA THERE as soon as I could do it! I would find a job and MOVE OUT… ASAP!

I would find a job, *KNOW THAT I HAVE IT*, have *received my current (last) Paycheck*, then write up a Suggestion for their Box (I would have done this days ago)... spilling your guts on how bad what is bad, etc., etc., and ending with "I QUIT", *put it in the BOX*, and *walk OUT*... never to return!

Stick to your guns… Continue to look for better opportunities… You will find one! ... eventually…

What does the Company do for a business? 
What do you do there?
What do you want to do?


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

OK Bob, I see your point… I guess this is what Keith is up against?

Yes, I can see the value of a Union in this case…

BUT, NOT to bleed and control the Company to DEATH… That is why I HATE Unions… in the beginning, they have done good… . since then, they (some) have done a horrible amount of damage forcing plants to CLOSE!

If Keith is in this boat, I think I'd think about changing career skills… going to school… etc…. BUT, put up with what I have & make the best of it until I can get out… Maybe going into some type of business for myself (part-time at first, of course).


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*
"Honestly, I'd rather see an economist in office, rather than a businessperson or a politician." 
*

It's the Idealistic Economist that is dangerous… 
If the economist is using proven facts (and not unproven pie in the sky ideas), he might work out… Have Common sense? LOL

A Businessperson should know a little bit about Fiscal Responsibility… and common sense… which is good. LOL

A Politician (normally) is a two faced lying poor excuse of a human.

*IMHO…*


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## BobTheFish (May 31, 2011)

I can agree with ya there too Joe. I've never been in a union, and don't have enough experience with them to make too many comments either way about them, so I tend to refrain about talking about them in the present time.

However, I do agree that a business, regardless of what it is, should be able making a bit of money for the owners, and not end up in the red every week.

And I've worked with many people, (non-unionized), both young and old, that make it seem like the workplace is the place they hang out with their friends or read a book during the day. (a few older folks have given a harsh attitude about dustiing glass shelves, and some of the younger ones can't turn off their damned cell phones.. I've seen all spectrums). You honestly think that a lot of these sorts of folks would be fired, but honestly, a lot of it is a matter of what you get. The employees that are willing to work, and do actually want to make at least a little bit of money for their workplace (and thusly still have a place to go to work), are far fewer these days.

The flip side to this is that once someone is willing to do the work, the work load often shifts to those willing to do the work, and the workplace can take advantage of the few that work hard. I've seen that too. Or where there's a problem, the boss will call out the innocent worker whom does their job, because the person at fault doesn't give a crap, and the hard worker is chastised, and feels the need to fix the problem (the other worker can't be bothered).

The hard part is finding the balance. And accepting that you're going to have a fair amount of workers pass through that aren't worth much more than what you could get from a trained monkey…

But it doesn't mean you have to treat them like crap. In fact, you really can't. None of us really are ideal, nor do we live in an ideal world… It's all just a crapshoot at trying to find balance and do the best you can.


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## BobTheFish (May 31, 2011)

I agree about an idealist in office, I definitely meant a practical, pragmatic economist.

An economist will sit down and try to make sure that the goods and services flow throughout the society in a balanced fashion (because that's what's money's all about, a means to exchange things for things, and an economy is all about the way things are exchanged for other things, so that for the most part, those trades are balanced, and the system works like a well oiled machine).

A businessperson isn't concerned about the flow of trade itself. They're focused on one aspect: profit. And profit is when one person or group exchanges something of lesser value (costs) for something of greater value (retail prices). That's fine on a smaller scale and if, in the end, it balance out decently enough in the overall flow of cash, but when you're able to manipulate that whole system, it's like damming up a river.

Besides, even if they're a good businessperson, they're still human. They still probably have ties to other businesspeople and will want to help their friends out. (who doesn't want to help out a friend or family member). The temptation is often too great.

But then again, it's the same for anyone, including the economist… So in the end, the difference between a good business person and a bad economist, and which I'd choose would probably lie within their overall character.


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## SCR0LL3R (May 28, 2010)

"The fact is the wealthy pay the vast majority and around 50% of the nation pays nothing."

The top 400 richest people in America have more than the bottom 150 million people… Somehow you feel sorry that they should support them with a "socialist redistribution of wealth scheme"


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

The best prescription for a sound economy is to have a free market system with the correct amount of regulation, but not too much. It must have a stable legal and judicial system that is fair and just. And, among a few other things, it must have a *sound* monetary system that cannot be manipulated by politicians or bankers.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

"It's the wealthy who pay almost all the taxes" is a deceptive statement.

The RATE they pay is far more useful, or-at least-extremely important to know.

The first chart you posted-to the extent it's presented accurately-gives a glimpse into what I'm talking about.

It indicates that the wealthiest pay about 19% of their income, in federal income taxes, and-loosely-the middle class pays about 50%, but …. without any indication of where their percentages delineate income levels, you can't say who's who, other than at the very top.

When so many people take to the defense of the wealthy, pointing to aggregate tax DOLLARS paid, but unaware of what % they pay compared to middle class people … I take the position that … that matters.

What I'm trying to get to IS a fact-one that is almost NEVER talked about, and one that I think is hugely significant, in a nation of people who whine about other people "hating the rich."

For example, *I* don't hate the rich. Many of my friends are VERY wealthy.

I DO wonder, though, why they pay a MUCH lower % of THEIR income than I do.

I've always wondered that.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

Hmmmm.

"Ideology over facts……."
Don't take things personally. 
I am sure I never said anything this ugly to you. 
I am certain that I have never tried to characterize you in any negative manner. 
I don't know why you feel compelled to hurl such remarks about.

[contrast that with]

"Do you know about the "Earned Income Tax Credit"? It's a scam where they use nice words to create a federal welfare giveaway to people who contributed little or nothing to society except more hopeless need. Have kids and fail to support them and the Fed gives 'em other people's money. I think there should be work houses for dead beats like that, not giveaways to encourage parasitism as a culture."

[then take note of a definition of the word "ideology"]:

- the integrated assertions, theories and aims that constitute a sociopolitical program

I didn't insult. I defined. Your paragraph above-by definition-is ideology.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Joe and CR1

You are not going to convince the liberals/socialists on here (or anywhere) that the wealthy are paying their fair share of taxes until they pay enough taxes to the point they are no longer wealthy.

It is all about a distorted view of social justice and redistribution.

Forget the fair argument as they don't care about fair, it is all about taking what they think they deserve because the rich could not have possibly become rich in an honest fashion.

Don't waste your time and energy as they will not be satisfied until we are all poor and completly dependent on the nanny state.

Any refute of this should be ignored as their denial is just a smoke screen so we don't see their real intent.

Until we all live like N Korea, they will never be happy.

Go make some sawdust and forget them and this thread .


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

Scott ?

Not interested in a fact-based discussion ?

I'm not really into name calling, so … if that's where you want to go … have a safe trip


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## jeepturner (Oct 3, 2010)

@Dr.Dirt
you posted
"It is NOT a hoax!
Jeepturner did you read the top section of the link you provided?

The Obama administration plans to require private insurance carriers to reimburse the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) for the treatment service related injuries of military personnel -Truth! - but Cancelled"

I will repost the link

Yes I read the whole thing. And the quote that was untrue was in the paragraph below the one that you posted. So yes I did read the section you quoted and I also read the germane paragraph directly below the one you copied. It was the later one that was the subject of discussion.
As an aside to you thinking that I didn't read the top section, did you read the last word. CANCELED.

I am not trying to defend myself against an ideologue, it's truly like having a discussion with a drunk, they just can't have a change in reasoning regardless of the facts. I just want the record straight that the original quote, purported to be from Obama, was a fabrication of an ideologue with a counter point of view than the president. Satire is legal, but repeating satire as fact should be an embarrassment to a critical thinker. I am not pointing fingers here, just saying. I know that I have forward "That email" before, and when I found it to be a fake, it embarrassed me.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

What name did I call anyone Neil?


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## Theophilous (Aug 8, 2011)

I'll keep my comments simple.

We don't have a tax / revenue crisis. We have a spending crisis. We cannot borrow 40 cents of every dollar spent and not go broke.

Solutions?

1 - No more increasing baseline budgeting. Justify every dollar you spend, every year.
2 - Cut spending to 95% of the revenue collected last year. 
3 - If congress fails to pass a budget, balanced and on time, they are booted out. In the election to replace them, they are ineligible to run.
4 - No person may serve more than 12 consecutive years in congress.
5 - No person may run for more than one federal office at a time.
6 - The first 20,000 dollars of income an individual makes is tax free. After that everything from any source gets taxed at 35%. No credits, no deductions, no nothin'. Corporations, same thing, but at 20% to allow for hiring of workers.

Some of this will require constitutional ammendments. Will that happen? Nope.

Will I see any of this in my life time? I won't hold my breath


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Theo

#6. Your plan won't work, it does not punish the wealthy.

It must punish the achievers in society and reward the leeches.

We can't get to a socialist panacea if we have incentive to achieve.

C'mon, get with the program. Your brown shirt is waiting.


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## SCR0LL3R (May 28, 2010)

"It would be fair if every one paid the same dollar amount into the system."

Well with that kind of logic there is no point in discussing this any further.

So say everybody pays $8000 /year… for some people that takes 6 months, for others, 6 minutes… sounds fair.


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

No matter what your politics are it all boils down to spending more money than taking in and those with the purse strings (congress) and the approving authority (president) not caring because the blame can be so spread around nobody will be held accountable.

The so called budget surplus of the 90's was only a surplus when social security intakes were included.

And finally we have a president that will not admit responsibility until an opinion poll comes out that says people will be more likely to vote for him when he admits responsibility.

If these people were in danger of loosing their house because there was not enough money to pay the mortgage things might change.

The fiscal year ends Sept 30th but every year in recent memory a budget was not passed until December, the reason the fiscal year is Sept to Sept stems from a budget not being passed on time. Eventually the fiscal year might match the callendar year again.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

"*It would be fair if every one paid the same dollar amount into the system."

Well with that kind of logic there is no point in discussing this any further.

So say everybody pays $8000 /year… for some people that takes 6 months, for others, 6 minutes… sounds fair.*

As logical as 40+% Of eligible taxpayers not paying anything.


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## jeepturner (Oct 3, 2010)

I think that economics is a science. You can use economic models to run experiments and the results are repeatable and predictable. Having a non-political economist in office would be excellent, but would it happen? I don't think so, and one of the reasons I beleive that is illustrated in this forum post. 
There are people on here with closely held beliefs and they normally follow a party line, either blaming the dems or the reps for all of the ills and misspending that the government has done. There are two things that stand out to me in this.
One is that the term Tribal politics is a closer definition than the two part system. Two is that we, as a people, view the government as an outside organization. We have a representative democracy, and those folks that we elect are doing a great job of representing us as a whole. We complain that every one else makes more than they should i.e "the lazy bums", the union goons", the greedy rich", the welfare cheats" etc. Sounds a lot like the debates on the house floor, except that those in congress a more verbose. The question posed "Is congress out of touch?" 
no I think they are representing the aggregate appropriately.

I have a question for the S&P execs, Why weren't you threatening to downgrade the rating of the US government when you were taking money from the bank bailout?

I beleive if anyone has too much influence in the political races it's business. 
If we want a two party system to work for us, we need to become better at listening not shouting, we need to become more educated less entrenched in hearsay, and more willing to compromise our own goals for the betterment of our country. Much like those folks born before 1925 who found that together they could conquer evil and prevail upon a world gone mad, by working as one country with a common goal.


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## Theophilous (Aug 8, 2011)

Thank you for replying.

Rocky,

But number six does provide for progressive tax collection. As you earn more you will pay progressively larger amounts approaching the nominal tax rate of 35%. I'm not adverse to changing that rate to a lower number. But i don't think that making it any higher would increase revenue.

As for brown shirting it. I thought the uniform of the day was the purple SEIU t-shirt. Did I miss the memo?

I thought that this might be a fair compromise between the flat tax advocated by some and the progressive tax as advocated by the current occupants of the executive and senate chambers. The way they look at it, it is ALL their money. They just let you keep some of it.


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

Hey just a question…..But why do we have VA hospitals when the service they provid is often subparr to those provided by local hospitals? and why not let our vets be treated by regular hospitals which have access to specialists and not fresh out of school amatuers? We should give our vets a card that covers them at local hospitals and get rid of the VA system.


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

The progressive tax system is an illusion it allows the wealthy to escape from taxes through tax deduction (or loopholes for the liberals)


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## SCR0LL3R (May 28, 2010)

" As logical as 40+% Of eligible taxpayers not paying anything."

As you can see from the chart that cr1 posted earlier, the bottom 50% are paying 13% of their income… Increasing that to the point that everybody pays the same percentage, would mean that the poorest's(bottom 50) taxes would be tripled. This massive increase would mean they are paying 9% of the country's total income tax instead of the 3% they are covering now. An increase of 6% in government income tax… Seems like a lot of hardship for a massive population with very little change in the big picture.

Of course this would also mean that the top 1% would be paying near double what they pay now… That should of course solve the whole problem!


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

You have it Theo.

I like the flat tax as well with massive welfare reform.

Libs won't go for it because there will be more actual taxpayers and that does not buy them votes.


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

I often wonder when rich blow hards like Warren Buffet get on tv and say the rich should be paying higher taxes, after all they are rich and dont mind, why they just dont pay more. There is nothing preventing him from paying more than what he actually owes.


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## jeepturner (Oct 3, 2010)

@ Yankton, "Hey just a question…..But why do we have VA hospitals" 
VA hospitals lead in treatment of amputees, and offer far greater service than for profit hospitals. 
Before you start the listing of non supported hearsay evidence that VA hospitals are below par, please know that I have heard a ton already. But please know that in the Seattle area the lab in the VA sets the standards for the local hospitals.
We should invest in our VA system making it better, not throwing our vets to the whims of whatever treatment makes someone the most money.
Have I ever been treated in a VA hospital, no. Am I eligible, yes. Should a non vet have a say in where I have to go, no.

"""Patients routinely rank the veterans system above the alternatives, according to the American Customer Satisfaction Index." In 2008, the VHA got a satisfaction rating of 85 for inpatient treatment, compared with 77 for private hospitals. In the same report the VHA outpatient care scored 3 points higher than for private hospitals.[3]

"As compared with the Medicare fee-for-service program, the VA performed significantly better on all 11 similar quality indicators for the period from 1997 through 1999. In 2000, the VA outperformed Medicare on 12 of 13 indicators." [4]

A study that compared VHA with commercial managed care systems in their treatment of diabetes patients found that in all seven measures of quality, the VHA provided better care.[5]

A RAND Corporation study in 2004 concluded that the VHA outperforms all other sectors of American health care in 294 measures of quality; Patients from the VHA scored significantly higher for adjusted overall quality, chronic disease care, and preventive care, but not for acute care.[6]

A 2009 Congressional Budget Office report on the VHA found that "the care provided to VHA patients compares favorably with that provided to non-VHA patients in terms of compliance with widely recognized clinical guidelines - particularly those that VHA has emphasized in its internal performance measurement system. Such research is complicated by the fact that most users of VHA's services receive at least part of their care from outside providers. [2]


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

The problem Keith is the folks paying 13% are consuming way more than that in national fiscal resources.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Pat,

Any liberal that takes a tax refund is dishonest because if they really believe the government makes better choices with THEIR money they would give it back to them and say " take care of me".

They want their money and other people's money as well.

Social justice and redistribution. Not more complicated than that.


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

@patcollins, Buffett (not buffet… even though he might as well be one) is a HUGE philanthropist. No government could make him give any more back than he already has (and will). He's like a big game hunter that gives away all the meat. I would use another person for that example.

Ever wondered how much the rich give to charity ? It would amaze you. Tax them too hard and that, too goes to the over-sized turd of a government we have.


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## BobTheFish (May 31, 2011)

Jeepturner, You're right. And I hate when I get caught up in it because I feel like I'm either deal with people with too much personal investment in it, or I'm playing parent to a bunch of children.

Theo, I still don't like the idea of a flat tax due to reasons I mentioned much further above, but I have to say, you're one of the few people to propose a flat tax at a higher precentage than what is average overall. Which acknowledges, at least in some part, that even if we cut spending (which I agree we most certainly should) we still are in the red.

Well, here's a few wiki links: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_inequality
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_inequality_in_the_United_States

They're complete with a whole slew of references for you to all battle over, as well as plenty of pretty charts and graphs.

In any which case, I liked them as a nice easy read, and maybe both sides will learn something and be able to see the situation is more complicated than originally thought.


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

David

Just because Warren Buffet is giving away all his fortune doesn't mean he has the right to preach to other people about what they should do.


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## SCR0LL3R (May 28, 2010)

Actually, he has the right to preach about just about anything he wants. Hell even I have that right… and listen to the foolishness that I spout! :/


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

Ok let me rephrase that, it doesn't make his preaching right.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

When Buffet says those things he is a preacher, when he does not actually do what he preaches ( pay more taxes) he is a hypocrite.

If it is such a great idea and you really believe it, then complete the action you believe in.


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## lwllms (Jun 1, 2009)

"Hey just a question…..But why do we have VA hospitals when the service they provid is often subparr to those provided by local hospitals? and why not let our vets be treated by regular hospitals which have access to specialists and not fresh out of school amatuers? We should give our vets a card that covers them at local hospitals and get rid of the VA system."

I used to believe that. Then I waltzed into the VA on a Sunday with a badly infected cut on my thumb and learned how wrong I was. I now never wait more than a few minutes for a scheduled appointment. For my annual physical I'm scheduled for appointments all day and I'm always on my way home an hour or two before my last appointment was scheduled.

A couple years ago I walked into the VA emergency room (they call it "urgent care") thinking I had the flu, within two minutes they diagnosed a heart attack. It took less than a second to have my entire medical record before the person at the admission desk. In less than five minutes I was on my way to ICU accompanied by two nurses, a doctor and a defibrillator. I had heart surgery within a couple hours.

In 2000 I went into the major hospital in this quarter of the State with all four bones in my arm shattered at the elbow. A compound fracture with bones sticking out and plenty of blood. I was in the emergency waiting room for what seemed like forever but I know it was more than an hour. I laid in a bed in the emergency room for a couple hours before they gave me anything for the pain. It was more than six hours after going in the emergency room before they prepared me for surgery.

My experience is that I see the best doctors, VA nurses are incredible and all the medical staff are top notch. My local VA hospital is the most efficient medical facility I've ever seen. I think you're confusing military medicine with the VA. My wife has very good health insurance with her job but I get far better medical care than she does. I'd be willing to pay a lot for her to get the same kind of care I get. All the veterans I talk to when I'm there seem to feel the same. At times I feel like coming home from Vietnam with a disability was fortunate.


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## BobTheFish (May 31, 2011)

CR1….

You're comment is….. just…. REALLY! ? ! ? ! ? ! ? ! ? ! ? ! ? ! ? ! ?

If that's true, then why don't the hundreds of other super amazing rich people want higher taxes! ? ! ? ! ? ! ? ! ? ! ? !

And Bill Gates is trying to help those suffering in third world countries so he can chain them up in sweatshops, programming Windows 8….

I mean, yeah, higher taxes means less class disparity, which means less ill will to the amazing stupendously rich, but that comment is just so backwards… No insults meant here (seems to be touchy here), but it's like that comment is so counter to everything you've been saying about how the government is bleeding the rich dry through taxes, and here you're saying *"They believe that higher taxes is a good thing solely because it promotes an atmosphere in which they can make more money. And that promotion is done on the backs of the working classes."*

So which is it? the government is taking too much of their money, and they can't make more, or the government isn't taking enough, because if they took more money, they could make infinitely more?


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

CR1

I always ignore someone that promotes higher taxes.


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## SCR0LL3R (May 28, 2010)

"My problem is to look out for myself and my family."
"And I don't really care ( why should I?) that some schmuck has to work all year long to pay his taxes.
Whose fault is it that he is incapable of earning income more efficiently?"

I have come to the conclusion that you must just be trolling and I have been falling for it. You really had me going for awhile there.


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

The problem is guys is that $8000 is not enough--That would be a major decrease in taxes!! Currently the federal government takes in $32,000 for every man woman and child….So if everyone were to pay their fair share we would pay a lot more!


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

The wealthiest men in the United States are all democrats and all want higher income taxes?


> ? Why


 Because they don't make an income and they are immune to income taxes! They let the well to do and the middle class pay taxes.


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

A flat tax scares the wealthy! There would be no decuctions and things like dividends, realized capital gains and interest on bonds would be taxed as the same rate as income.


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## wseand (Jan 27, 2010)

Keith you do seen a little gullible to me. :~).

YanktonSD, 
I guarantee you if there is a problem with the VA system the vets will take care of it our way. If you get rid of the VAHCS you would flood the private health care system with a bunch of whinny vets and we certainly don't want that.

I don't think the truly wealthy are afraid of much, but I would be speculating.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

The very wealthiest among us are able to set up foundations and avoid a lot of taxes - especially inheritance taxes. To set up a foundation you need a lot of expert lawyers and it is costly. However, you can still control your wealth and use it for a lot of purposes for which you are committed too, for example political purposes.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

"I always ignore someone that promotes higher taxes."

I always celebrate the open-minded, among us


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## wseand (Jan 27, 2010)

What is open minded about higher taxes. Just asking. I would think it would be more open minded to be for reducing cost. Raising taxes is the easy way out.


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## SSMDad (Apr 17, 2011)

Personally I'd rather have corporations pay their share and I pay more for products. Perhaps then people would stop buying so much JUNK. Reminder: GE paid no tax last year and I'm certain ExxonMobile who turned the largest profit ever in US corp. history 2 years ago (when they were all saying they couldn't do anything about the $4/gallon fuel costs) pays much less than it's share.

I'm not sure what's happening except that I know there's little manufacturing left in this country. I have so much trouble finding ANYTHING that's NOT made in china (yes I purposefully put c in lowercase).

Another big issue is loopholes in the tax law in the form of "Dollar-a-year-men." Wonder how much tax I'd have to pay by listing my income as $1 USD/year. Heck I'd qualify for an earned-income tax credit and get a refund if I made that "little."

Instead what do we do with this. We sit around and talk and moan and groan instead of holding politicians accountable for EVERYTHING they do. They're suppposed to be OUR voice and accountable to US but what "we the people" do more so ever year is akin to the orphan Oliver saying please sir, may I have another.


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## Lurch (May 16, 2011)

Interesting thread. The most encouraging thing about it, in my mind, is not the percentage of people agreeing with either side. It's the percentage of folks who are realizing this is not a problem of one party or the other. Talking poonts aside, topa and mike, the Tea Party's main reason for coming into being is that fiscal conservatives in this country had been put in a situation where neither party was willing to give them anything b

We have a huge fiscal mess, largely tied to entitlement programs (SS and Medicare) that have grown bloated under both parties' watch. At some point we have to call it what it is - a giant pyramid scheme of intergenerational wealth transfer - and put the whole thing on a sustainable footing. It will be painful and the political class doesn't want to touch it, but at some point the money is just too big a problem to ignore.

In all of this, I find myself coming back to Winston Churchill's old line (paraphrasing) that "you can always count on America to do the right thing - after exhausting every possible alternative." We just may be there…


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## SSMDad (Apr 17, 2011)

"And I don't really care ( why should I?) that some schmuck has to work all year long to pay his taxes. 
Whose fault is it that he is incapable of earning income more efficiently?

Tell me that, who is to blame for his failures?"

...and people wonder why we have so much depression, drug abuse, crime, and the country is generally failing (except for the hawks in the defense INDUSTRY)


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## jeepturner (Oct 3, 2010)

@Lurch
The most depressing thing to me about this discussion, is the entrenchment I read in others beliefs. One of the key things I see is that people are marginalizing things using labels developed by their tribal leaders. (Tribal because that's the best label I have heard to describe what politics has become in this country.) Take, for instance, your use of the phrase "entitlement programs", a phrase developed by the ultra conservative media, to describe, and marginalize an insurance scheme, that we all pay into to insure that our elderly and sick no longer have to live out the last days of their lives in the abject poverty that was a fixture in this country when we had unfettered capitalism. 
I just wanted to get that out there. I know it wouldn't change your use of the phrase. But some one has to say it, and some one should stand up every time it is used. Maybe just to let those who don't see it become more aware.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Reading through most of the posts it becomes clear that many political situations are cited for our troubles, and I guess they are, BUT whatever side of the aisle you find yourself on, the root cause can be found without any political references and centered on what we did wrong and what we need to do- whatever political party is in power. We need to understand errors and put the US back on it's base.

The US made it's fortune based on industrial manufacturing and exportation of products made in the USA.
US citizens bought everything that US industry offered, imports were generally products the US did not manufacture.

Post WW2 was a bonanza for the US as most all countries involved in that war found themselves desolated, without industries and materials. The US became their supplier of machine tools, materials and food products, but was not understood that this situation would not last forever because these other nations would rebuild their industries and economies, thus US exports of this nature would eventually taper off. This time of being able to have a market for everything you made, the US very rich and was seen as a continuig "gravy train" with out end.
The reality is that these other countries did get back on their own two feet and once again were able to fill the home demand for machinery and products, and they were new designs, reliable and welcomed by these countries as they understood that they could not go on importing manufacturing tools and other items longer than was necessary.

After seeing machine and other tool exports fall, the US embarked on some really stupid exercises to import vast amounts of goods (most of which were already made in the US) because they were cheaper and more money could be made on them than the home manufactured products. Next came to the thought that "why do we have to manufacture anything" because we can import the items and make more profits on them. So Machine tools of some industries were exported to some cheap labor countries, US factories closed and US workers laid off because they had become an "unnecessary high overhead".
So the US has gone from being very self sufficient, making it's own TV's, Electrical goods, tools, washing machines refrigerators, A/C's …....the list goes on, to an importer of all the goods it used to make. Really, really stupid and untterly unpatriotic, in fact, almost treason.

For those of us with WW in our veins, just how many American made ( I mean ALL American components too) can you identify today? Not many. Check it out - count.
We have 1 router manufacturer, 1 saw blade manufacturer, and even some stalwart American tools are foreign imports, a month ago I purchased a Starrett tape measure and was astounded to find it was made in China.

What our country needs is to get back into the manufacturing business and get out of the "services industry". Services only serve themselves and make absolutely nothing, except acting as an unwanted "go betweens", adding additional costs between the customer and manufacturer/seller.

Just imagine Sam Walton started and ran his business as a flag waving buy American business, sadly when Sam died and the "family" took over, Sam's ecumen went out the window and cheap imports to make more money became the game plan. San must be turning inhis grave. So just imagine if Walmart had continued Sam's policy? Imagine that all those products they sell were US manufactured, our country would be far better off.

So while blames, quotes, arguments continue to skirt around the root cause we will never get out of this mess.
The ONLY answer is for us to manufacture our way out, make superb goods, go head to head with superb foreign goods, Get plants built or re-opend and tooled up, employ workers for these revitalized industries and BUY AMERICAN MADE…........ that's something every concerned citizen should bear in mand, stop sending your money overseas.

Now for some more reality: The finincial meltdown - worldwide was caused by US banks, Insurance companies and Realtors coming up with a scheme to permit people who were a very poor credit risk to "get into a house". They knew these loans were shaky, but bundled them together in packages and sold them to other institutions (worldwide) as secure and highly rated, safe bets. The name of this game is called FRAUD. When all these loans went into default, the holders of these "packaged lies" were left holding the baby--- all over the world, yes we caused it all.

So now the US has been demoted to AA credit rating. Interesting to note that those countries that were so reliant on the US after WW2 and got their act together are still AAA+ rated.


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## SSMDad (Apr 17, 2011)

*No one is born broken or defective! *It very much IS caused by someone else AND society. I'm not saying people shouldn't be responsible for their own actions but many of the wrong choices people make that bring about their own suffering stems from the techniques of dealing with life that they obviously didn't get from family.

Sorry but Adam Smith was wrong. Free market economy is not the be-all end-all perfect system! There are NO perfect systems.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

I really don't think that we have a true free market economy.


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## SSMDad (Apr 17, 2011)

"I really don't think that we have a true free market economy."

I'll buy that!


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## SSMDad (Apr 17, 2011)

"*Explain all the obvious birth defects, Explain schizophrenia, Explain Pol Pot*"

Society labels these things as defective. How many babies are born with schizophrenia, borderline pd, anti-social pd, mass murder, etc. in their minds, knowing they just need to get older before they can do it?

Explain why identical twin studies don't 100% support your assertion that it's a genetic condition. BTW you can have all the derisive laughter you wish. There mental hospitals FILLED with people who do just that.

Oh and if we're bringing education into the picture, I have a combined master's in developmental and social psych from Penn State, 2006. (that's after a dual undergraduate degree from John's Hopkins in History/Psychology to which I spent every summer working in the child and adolescent development lab!)

So, please continue while I proceed to suffer fools gladly.


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

"The finincial meltdown - worldwide was caused by US banks"

NOPE!! It was caused by people who cannot save their pennies and earn the rewards of their labor. People bought houses that they could not afford and thought that they would get rich by housing prices going up and up. They brought down the banks and now the governments.


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

If we tax everyone at 100% with no deductions we still cannot pay for this government…..so what is the solution? Take everything from everyone?


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## SSMDad (Apr 17, 2011)

Yep let's blame only the people, especially those who saved their normal 20-30% downpayment, paid their (fixed-rate 30 yr) mortagage on time, then lost their jobs due to downsizing to keep profits up!

It's all their fault, not the banks, certainly not agencies like Goldman and no share of the responsibility can go on the government for deregulating and SEC corruption.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*I think cr1 is correct…*

*If* people can get something *Cheap*, regardless of what country it comes from, *many* (not all) *will JUMP* for the Deal with the Joy of *getting a Good Deal… *

In reality, they just helped bury themselves, etc. *as CR1 stated…*


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## BobTheFish (May 31, 2011)

Agreed again joe, but that's part of human nature, and the consumerist culture that started post WWII. I've studied trends in silver products as part of my job. basically, I studied one particular section of the luxury goods economy over the course of 150 years.. Consumerism is relatively modern, but it's been a rampant change…


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## wseand (Jan 27, 2010)

Schizphrenia is actually a genetic disorder it usually shows itself around the age of 19 and then again at 40, I believe. If you make it to 50 there is a greater chance you won't get it. People have genetic dispositions to addictive behaviors. Some have allergies, some are more prone to cancers, some have ADHD. There are many defects that don't show up til later in life. MS, BiPolar. Bone diseases. Let me know if I am wrong here.

Now there is a lot to be said about ones upbringing. Everything you do and everything that is done to you in life creates who you are now. You can have a tramatic event that deeply changes who you are. Who you are also changes the way you deal with the tramatic event. Parents treat their kids differently because they are different people. Evironmental factors, genetic factors, demagraphic factors all play a roll in who you become. Some of them are in you control and some aren't.

So to really understand someone and why they do things you must understand all that brought a person to this point in their lives.


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

The housing market did not crash overnight….the people who lost their homes after the economy crashed are the result of people who want everything now instead of waiting. We have all paid a price from greed, but the most greedy people are those who do not practice delayed gratification.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

What follows is pretty much the accounts that I have read about this.

The government, the federal reserve, and regulators relaxed the requirements that people were suppose to have in order to qualify for a loan. The banks played along and carried it to the hilt and knowingly made loans to people who, unless they were complete idiots, knew the loans were not good loans. Then the banks and investment people bundled them up in investment packages along with some mediocre loans and worthless derivatives and sold them to investors some of which sold them again and maybe some others sold them again. I'd say the banks have a lot of responsibility just as does Congress, the regulators, the rating agencies,and the Federal reserve who pumped the money supply up which had a lot to do with creating the housing bubble - everyone had plenty of money to speculate with. Also, the FED lowered the required reserve requirement for banks and that also leveraged the banks so that they were operating with small sums of money in reserve compared to the amount of business that they were doing. Now all of these people should have known better because they are in the business or work with it directly.

If you want to blame all of the fools that came in and borrowed large loans that they could not pay back then go ahead but where is it going to get you? They walked away from the loans, didn't give a whoot in hades about their credit rating then, and don't give a damn about it now.

However, now, all of the people who should have known better or really knew better but were too busy stuffing their pockets with profits and bonuses, while other people down the line now have a lot of worthless assets on their hands because they knowingly passed it on to them. Plus, on top of that the very people who caused the problems are the very same people who are running the show now. Also, many of the banks who participated in all of this foolishness, not to mention the derivative bubble which will scare the hell out of anybody that takes a little time to read about it, have now received trillions in bailout money and loans. So I guess *happy days are here again* except for the fact that whatever is left of the middle class is going to largely be the ones who have to pay all of these bailouts and loans back in one way or the other.

Now, the above is some of the things that I have read about it. I wonder whose right. We may never know because no one is accountable.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*"The banks played along and carried it to the hilt and knowingly made loans to people who, unless they were complete idiots, knew the loans were not good loans." 
*

That tells me that it's the Banks!
As a result of the banks not having the back-bone to NOT knowingly write-up BAD loans, *and* the failure to report to the Government, etc., how & why the practice was bad and should not be done, *was the Start of the Problem.* * If the Banks had excersized their fiducial duty, the problem would have been averted!*

If the banks did that & the Government, etc. said go ahead anyway, then, it would have been the Government, etc. that caused it. (I don't think that happened)


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

*Joe*, the banks couldn't lower their requirements without the government , regulators, and FED telling them to do so. They have to follow the rules of the FED if they are part of the Federal Reserve and there are bank examiners that make sure that they operate according to the rules that are set. The loan requirements were relaxed by everyone involved according to what I have read in a number of different places.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

In an article by Wikipedia about the Subprime Morgage Crisis this paragraph appears:

*The U.S. Financial Crisis Inquiry Commission reported* its findings in January 2011. It concluded that "*the crisis was avoidable and was caused by: Widespread failures in financial regulation, including the Federal Reserve's failure to stem the tide of toxic mortgages; Dramatic breakdowns in corporate governance including too many financial firms acting recklessly and taking on too much risk; An explosive mix of excessive borrowing and risk by households and Wall Street that put the financial system on a collision course with crisis; Key policy makers ill prepared for the crisis, lacking a full understanding of the financial system they oversaw; and systemic breaches in accountability and ethics at all levels.*"


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## NathanAllen (Oct 16, 2009)

If we can't even agree that the inflated-ratings of complex derivatives by the rating industry allowed Banking and Financial institutions to over-extend themselves which is why us taxpayers had to bail out institutions that continue to drag on the US economy. Tons of low rate capital is available to be lent, but very few applications match their new criteria.

There were two economic meltdowns that came to a head in 2008.

1. Micro Economic - impacted individuals who couldn't afford the loans they foolishly took out expecting the home to double in value by the time the interest rate adjusted. This impacted the main street economy; individual owners, construction companies, etc.
2. Macro Economic - growth fueled by dodgy complex derivatives. This is where IRA, 401K, State Pension funds, Non-Profit funds, and other investors took a hit. This is also where the bailouts occurred and the bulk of the Federal dollars went to shore up the investment economy.
Unsurprisingly number two was not driven by number one. If we had only encountered a pop of the housing bubble in terms of real estate and home value this would have been a strong recession; but the overnight evaporation of so much capital is what extended the recession to the entire economy. Rating agencies, investment advisors, fund managers and the rest of the Wall Street gang did not acknowledge that there was significant risk in AAA bundled mortgages. They were allowed; through deregulation, to pass a package consisting of mostly high interest loans on as an aggregate SAFE investment.

I know it is easier for some people to blame the idiots who overbought (and suffered personal financial consequences) but as much blame has to be laid at the investment gurus who shifted so much money into an unsound financial product.

And that is the real crux; we're so polarized that most of us can't even imagine that it isn't A or B; its some from A and some from B. Compromise has become a dirty word, so has poverty or the idea that we need to scale back on universal healthcare for the elderly.
What a sad confused country we live in. Last year at the time Republicans went home for the break to scream about 'Death Panels," that was an election year. This year they're carrying the torch of dismantling Medicare. Democrats need to increase revenues; but they refuse to acknowledge that the only way to have Republicans sign on board to increase the tax burden of the wealthy would be to also increase the tax burden on the poor.

Can we at least agree that compromise is an agreement where each side is willing to make concessions?


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

*Nathan*, for the most part, I like very much what you have said above.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*"Joe, the banks couldn't lower their requirements without the government , regulators, and FED telling them to do so. They have to follow the rules of the FED if they are part of the Federal Reserve and there are bank examiners that make sure that they operate according to the rules that are set. The loan requirements were relaxed by everyone involved according to what I have read in a number of different places."*

OK…

The Fed, etc. tells the banks 
"Effective Immediately: Give all of your money to everyone that walks in the door whether they need the money or not!"

Are you trying to tell me the banks don't have the Option to tell the Feds, etc.: 
"This is NOT a good idea… it will put us out-of-business."???

I don't think so…

We are FREE to voice our opinion…


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

Joe: since it made the banks more money, they DID think it was a good idea.

Then they chopped up the loans, in a Cuisinart, packaged them, and sold them as securities, removing the risk (that they knew about) from themselves.

And … I give you the meltdown of 2008.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

*Joe*, the banks are worse than the people that walk in wanting to take out loans that they can't repay. The bankers can't possibly hold themselves back because of their greed. They will do whatever they are *allowed* to do to make a buck and will always push the limits as far as they can.

This is why we are suppose have a government, regulators, bank examiners, and the FED, etc. to always hold them back from acting foolishly out of greed and stupidity. However, if all of these entities that are suppose to watch the money lenders don't do their job then it's almost a given that all hell will break loose which is exactly what happened.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

*Neil*, yes - the meltdown of 2008 - Happy Days are Here Again!!! Brother, can you spare a dime? ;-{

BTW, Meltdown is a good book.


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

I dont know if I should bring this up or not but what the hell. Part of the reason the banks were required to give sub prime loans was lobbying groups that would whine and moan that giving loans only to "safe" customers was not fair. Of course certian segments of society in general have more money that other segments so to be politically correct these requirements had to be relaxed to keep these lobbying groups from making a stink. In the end it was political correctness that played a very big part of the melt down.

I purchased a house in 2006 as the prices pulled back a little, but I started looking in 2004 and actualy told my friends damn whats with these prices, I bet there will be a lot of foreclosures in a couple years (should have listened to myself).

If you trace things back you can see that every time the government propped up the economy and delayed the inevitable "correction" in the economy it just made the fall that much harder. If the government had left well enough alone we may have had some smell recessions here and there but the big one probably would not have been so painful.

You want to talk about money leaving the country take the amount of cash we spend on foreign oil every day, that money leaves the economy every day to never return directly.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

OK…

"The banks played along and carried it to the hilt and knowingly made loans to people who, unless they were complete idiots, knew the loans were not good loans."

They knew the loans were not good loans, didn't want to keep them, SOLD them off to some other unsuspecting entities to let THEM eventually take the loss.

Right?


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

Banks dont keep loans, they almost always go to Fanny Mae and Freddy Mac which i think the official term is government supported enterprises. The collapse hit when AIG which insured alot of those loans couldnt pay the insurance out because so many defaults came at once, then it was just dominos falling, but the root cause was indiviuals defaulting on their mortgages.


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

If banks are greedy then why would they make a bad loan that they will not get repaid upon? Look at the losses that many of these banks have taken and look how many banks are not in business anymore! Ultimately is come down to the government requirement that for every good loan that a bank makes they must make 1 sub-parr loan.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

Here is one of the rubs - The largest banks are deemed too big to fail. Has anyone heard the term moral hazard? If you know that you are too big to fail then what? Does this come into play? Many of the banks who were deemed too big to fail are the same ones who got bailed out. Part of what they did with the bailout money is to make themselves even bigger by buying up banks that failed for dimes on the dollar so now that means they are even bigger than they were when they were too big to fail. Don't ask me - it's a complicated system that we have here. I think that I need to go back to my woodcarving. Woodcarving is something that I can relate to. ;-|


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Simple answer to the banks making dubious sub prime loans was the fact that it could make "bundles" with them and sell them off to unsuspecting buyers worldwide. When the bubble burst, all they got caught with was the worthless "paper loans" which they not been able to find mugs to purchase. The VAST majority of these "accredited AAA" bundles were worthless, the US banks let other institutions in many countries "take the hit", hence all the useless "paper bundles" brought financial crisis or ruin worldwide.

Again, with all the talk of guilt, blame and political decisions, the only way the US will get firmly on it's feet again is by Industrial production. It must once again become the powerhouse industrial entity before it took up gambling as an alternative "industry".


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

In a capitalist system there is no such thing as to big to fail. In fact if we would have let these banks fail it would have been a good thing for the long term because it would have created a vaccum where hundreds of small banks and businesses could have been created. In the short term it would have hurt a lot. I think there should never be any thing to big to fail, if there is then it is a monopoly that should be broke up!


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

Again, with all the talk of guilt, blame and political decisions, the only way the US will get firmly on it's feet again is by Industrial production. It must once again become the powerhouse industrial entity before it took up gambling as an alternative "industry".

I agree!!!! We need to produce things!!! If Obama wants more revenues then put tariffs on products and services from overseas.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

BTW, I didn't deem them to big to fail. I wasn't for bailing them out. IMO, let em drop. But me and you and a whole lots of other good folks sure do have to pay for bailing them out. Ya know?


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

I had a professor that talked about the decline of manufacturing in the US, his point was eventually someone has to make something. He also claimed for every one manufacturing job created 7-10 more service jobs are created while when one service job is created it creates 0-3 other service jobs. Not too sure where he got his numbers from, this was in the mid 90's.

Problem is anytime there is talk about building a factory, power plant etc someone has to protest it because they dont want it in their backyard (NIMBY, not in my back yard). All they have to do is claim there is some endangered slug or something in the area and the idea goes away.


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

Well we really didn't have to pay for the bailout because the government only lent the tarp money to the banks of which most of the banks paid back with 5% interest on top of it. But we did pay for it because the government borrowed the money and the put the money into the fed and never paid it back. so…..government screwed us again.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*Now, here's a guy who knows Congress is broken and is telling them so!*
*
Republican Rep Kelly's Budget Rant

*

*This was really FUN to watch!

I wonder if he will do any good! I sure hope he does!
*


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Low information voters are the biggest problem with Congress, followed by corps and few individuals that buy the Congressional votes and get their own special laws passed.

*consumerist culture that started post WWII*

There have only been 3 affluent middle class periods in the history of the world. The first followed the Black plagues of Europe. So many people died, labor became a scare commodity with the price going high enough to create an affluent middle class. They brought about the Renaissance.

The second was pre-Revolutionary War in the Colonies. Free and cheap land was the catalyst that did it that time. Freemen with time on their hands to think do things besides scratch to make a subsistence living do things the upper class doesn't like; question and rebel against authority.

The third and final affluent middle class is a result of the New Deal and the GI Bill of Rights which sent a whole generation to college after the War ended. Prior to that, a small minority in the US graduated high school. All of a sudden, we have an educated population. Again, it begets rebellion against authority and disposable income beyond the imagination of previous generations. Again, the upper class cannot stand this affluence among the peon.

The upper class believes God designated them to rule the world proven by His blessing them with such abundance. The fact that the peons are peons proves God intended for them to be dominated and used as cheap labor.

*Charles,* That is a good summary of the housing bubble. The CEO of Countrywide, a founder of wicked and evil practices in the housing market said he didn't care as he was gong to retire anyway. He is nothing more than a selfish, greedy hog who doesn't care about anything thing or anybody but his own evil a$$. He was the inventor of many of the fraudulent practices that caused the mess. He should be in prison or executed, but billionaires never face justice in America. There is no reasonable expectation of justice. We are no longer a nation of laws. We have become what we rebelled against 240 years ago or maybe even worse.

*PatCollins* You are 100% correct. Slick Willy Clinton wanted to fix the housing crisis. That got the ball rolling on the housing crisis as the gov't required banks to loan to a certain number of unqualified. The banks, seeing a large profit in high risk loans and foreclosure, maxed it out!!

*NathanAllen* I agree on pretty much everything you said. It is time for the Rs to quit putting politics and taking out Obama ahead of the country. The have shut down the gov't for 2 years by using the screwy rules of the Senate to block everything the House passed; at least 240 bills. They even demanded "100% American made" be taken out of the recovery act that was to stimulate the economy. A lot of that money went to buying imported products for many of the projects.

*Banks: Duty? The only duties owed are owed to the shareholders.*

All financial institutions have a fiduciary responsibility to follow sound practices and to not become a burden on the FDIC. Deregulation has allowed them to gamble with depositor's money on Wall Street and in the commodities market greatly increasing the volatility in those markets.

*YanktonSD* The banks are making more money on foreclosures than rewriting the loan terms to keep people in their homes. They were given a lot of gov't money to make the adjustments. They are keeping the money and still screwing the people.

Those banks should be broken up under anti-trust law. Too big to fail is too big to exist. The Brits took over their banks, straighten them out and sold them back into the private sector. If we tried that, the Rs would be screaming bloody murder about communism. One of the many reasons I have abandon them and their agenda of destroying the middle class, which is ME ;-((

WE don't need to build more industrial areas. We need to use the idle ones we already have. Free trade with open access to the American market is what has brought this country down and it will not recover until it is fixed. It may not be fixed in my lifetime. Snot Walker has caused an awakening in Wisconsin and there are signs of one in Ohio, but we have a long away further down to go before the population gets its collective head out of its where the suns never shines.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*fiscal mess, largely tied to entitlement programs (SS and Medicare)*

*Lurch*, A lot of truth in Churchill's line. SS and Medicare are not entitlements. They are insurance programs. In the late 70s were sold a program which greatly increased the SS taxes so we baby boomers would be paying for our own retirements. When Regan came along cutting taxes the deficit began to soar. To cover and hide this from the American people, he co-mingled the SS with the general fund. It has been that way since. The SS program has taken in more than it paid out every year but one since it started. The Rs want to get this last great horde of cash into the hands of Wall Street leeches. That is the bottom line on the deficit debate and the balanced budget amendment. They have hated every part of the New Deal that begat the middle class and are taking it apart piece by piece. They have been very successful in their efforts to end the middle class. It is all but gone. In the nexrt decade, I believe you will see the majority of us, US, on subsistence incomes and permanent unemployment in the 25% range.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Hamilton laid out 11 points of gov't policy for capitalism to flourish. 200 years later, Laffer and Regan thought they had a better way. It has been all down hill from there. The trickling down isn't working. Any damn fool should be able to see that.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Many of the financial institutions involved knew they were selling garbage in those loan packages. Goldman Sachs is high on the list. They even made bets that the packages they sold to pension plans and other investors would fail. They made billions and should be in prison or executed. A corporate death penalty is high on my wish list for this Christmas. Officers of those corps should not be slapped with minuscule fines that teh shareholders pay for them when they commit criminal activities.

When I saw mortgage backed securities paying 2x the normal mortgage rate, I knew something had to be fishy and stayed away form them. I didn't know what, but I knew enough to stay away. If I can figure it out, they knew full good and well what they were doing.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

*CR1*, From some things that I've read, some of the banks were accused of selling some of this stuff and then were actually betting against the same stuff with their derivatives at the same time. This came out in some of the questioning in congressional hearings I believe.

Also, it's not hard to read about some of the horror stories about whom they were making these home loans to.

I just say do some research on it. It's not at all hard to find a lot of information on the housing bubble - what caused it and why did it burst. I hope that everyone that has commented or looked at this thread will do some research on it. It will be good for America if everyone researches it because people will be better informed.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

CR1: The banks knew ALL ALONG what they were doing and were frantic to get rid of the worthless bundles of "paper WMD's". 
If you believe that the banks did not know what they were doing, then you might be interested in some swamp land in Florida that Topa has for sale.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*
Congress is out of touch... in LaLa Land*


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

Good one, *Joe*, I appreciate the post.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

Check this little goodie out that is about derivatives and Credit Default Swaps. I suggest you all read it and read it carefully. Nobody knows where all of these things are because the market is secret according to the essay. One of these little jewels is liable to jump up and bite anyone on their ass because they could be contained in many things that people buy. No wonder Warren Buffet called them financial weopons of mass destruction.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

BTW, this is the blog where I found that. I've been going to this blog for sometime just because he's kind of a regular guy with a good since of humor and a little insight which I don't always agree with. However, you occasionally find some good stuff on here by following his links and also get a good laugh..


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## grizzman (May 10, 2009)

wow, i just poked my head out of my bird house and this huge political discussion whacked me in the head…no talk of the fun stuff…like relaxing on the beach…eating a picnic of ribs and tatter salad..man, just this boring talk of politics…i hate this stuff…ive never gotten into it…i live in my dream world i guess…living life with my family and doing the good things in life…but i guess someone has to do this stuff…..well im going to fly a little further north for some cool air…anyone wanna talk walnut or maple…probably not…not in this thread anyway…....to much for a country boy…....well carry on guys…..ill see ya when ya come out of this…....whatever it is…...lol…..


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## grizzman (May 10, 2009)

hey i just saw this quote from *Neil.*..my really good buddy by the way ''Then they chopped up the loans, in a Cuisinart''.....hey i have one of those..i use it all the time in the kitchen…i hope that doesnt mean ive got some kind of political tool in my kitchen that is corrupting me into a* Democrat* or a* republican *...or even a member of th*e tea party*...oh and by the way , do they serve crumpets in this tea party…...so you must be thinking by now…gee he aint very serious about this political stuff…well you guessed it…...im for putting on my back pack and headin into the* Yukon territory* , and walking as far into it as i can go…the first grizz i come across ill hitch a ride on his back and go a whole lot further…..yep…just to get away from threads like this…lol…....


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## grizzman (May 10, 2009)

i think i need to make myself really clear here…i was being flippant in my statements here, i want you all to know im in touch with what is happening and im not a guy with my head in the sand, i love this country and served in the arm along with most of my relatives..my father was a Sargent major in the army for 20 years and what im saying is i believe in American and what we were founded on in the beginning..i want obama out..i dont know yet who needs to be in there, but i want it to be someone who believes in America…but im not the type to get into deep political discussions…thats my point..but im as American as anyone can be..i believe this country was founded upon principles of right…and that the men who wrote the constitution were inspired of god, this country would not be without god, and he might let things get pretty hairy, but he will not let her fail…and as always there are those here who dont agree with all ive said…and thats ok guys, thats what this country is about also..we can all believe what we may…and still get along and help one another…, well thats it..just didnt want to give you the impression i was not for my country and what is happening…and im not the kind of guy who enjoys big deep talks of politics..i never have been…but i want what America should be..and was..and can be again…and will be..trust in god that he will not let this country fail…grizz


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## BobTheFish (May 31, 2011)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44084236/ns/health-behavior/

apparently the rich don't give a [email protected]# about anyone else, and science proves it.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

Grizz… Very good… Thank you!


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

Hamilton laid out 11 points of gov't policy for capitalism to flourish. 200 years later, Laffer and Regan thought they had a better way. It has been all down hill from there. The trickling down isn't working. Any damn fool should be able to see that.

So what Bush and Obama have put in place versus Reagan and Laffer is better??? Topa do you live in one of those states with legal marijuana?


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

They have done nothing but follow the lead. Nothing has changed, trickling down still isn't working and it never will. Consumer demand drives the economic engine of capitalism, not some guy with too much money deciding to hire people out of the generosity of his heart to make widgets to see if any of them sell.

I really have to wonder why anyone making less $100k/ year would vote for Republicans? Anyone have any idea?

BTW, I want Obama gone too!!!

Ross Perot was right about the sucking sound of jobs leaving the US; too bad he didn't win ;-((


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

*I really have to wonder why anyone making less $100k/ year would vote for Republicans? Anyone have any idea?

*My guess would be they don't support the killing of the unborn.
*


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Yeah, I forgot about all the diversionary issues they use to keep the population stirred up. Why do they support killing millions with bombs and making millions more refugees? This is just beyond my comprehension. Kill these but not those???


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

;=)

Laffer: Obama Must Use Reaganomics to Save Economy
A key architect of Reagan's economic miracle, economist Arthur Laffer, reveals to Newsmax.TV that the Obama White House consulted him recently on how to save the U.S. economy.

http://news.newsmax.com/?K6IR.tnunnIDZHoRQkz1h5OmnRbexfRAK&http://www.newsmax.com/Headline/laffer-obama-reaganomics-gop/2011/08/10/id/406893?s=al&promo_code=CCF5-1


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*F U N N Y !!
*


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Calling Laugher (Laffer) is no laughing matter. May as well call the idiot that started the troubles to drive the last nail in the middle class' coffin. If that weren't bad enough, Harry Reid's appointees in the Senate to the Super Gang of 12 will start shoveling dirt into the grave. This Great Depression II is beginning to look permanent.


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

I am interested in why there is such hatred for Laffer who is a economist who figured out that when you cut taxes the revenue to the government increases. The Laffer curve. BTW it has recently been examined that the Bush tax cuts where every family across the country got to keep an extra $1500 of the money they would have paid to taxes, increased the revenue to the federal government.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Because that is BS!! Income Tax cuts result in lower wages. Look at what has happened in the last 40 years, wages have decreased 50% adjusted for inflation. Trickle down has never worked, will never work and has lead this country through the Economic gates of hell. I can't believe I am the only guy that figured this out in or about 1984. I'm no economist. I predicted, wages being stagnant and they have been. I started business and keep mine with inflation, but most people do not have that option. There is no way a guy in his 50s can be secure economically unless he is in control of his employer; ie, self employed;-) Any one laid off at that age is unemployed for the rest of his life, or working at menial jobs.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

It is said that for every Dollar placed into circulation, it generates a lot of taxable income; ergo, true revenue to the government.

*The Key:* The Dollar *MUST* be put back into circulation and NOT just stashed away in a savings account, etc.

*And don't tell me to prove who said it and when… Years ago… I have forgotten… *


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Federal spending needs to be brought under control, but now is the worst possible time to make cuts. They should have controlled in the early 80s when te edeficit was only a trillion, now it is over 14 Trillion. One thing you can count on Congress to do is the worst possible thing and the worst possible time.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

With the economy and unemployment as bad as they are, I think raising taxes would be the worst thing to do.
You CANNOT squeeze blood out of a turnip!

To me, the best things to do is to:

1. Remove Red Tape and many of the roadblocks that prevent businesses from being started which would also help businesses to continue in operation. Stop the EPA from throwing their weight around in an insane manner.

2. Kill ObamaCare!

3. Give businesses Reasons to operate more efficiently; Investment Tax Credits, etc.

4. Remove ALL uncertainty that is holding back business and job growth.

5. Do NOT raise income taxes… if anything, lower income tax rates for the Middle Class… Basically giving them a temporary "raise" so they can operate their Families and Jobs better…

6. People must FEEL GOOD… Contented Cows give more Milk!


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

The Bush tax cuts amount to $30 on every $1,000 over $250,000. If that makes a difference to them, they are already in big trouble.

The thing holding back job growth is free trade. US living wage labor will never compete with Chinese and East Indian peasants.

Most of the regulations on business have been drastically cut. Specifically, what would you like to see cut? I hear all the business people saying these things, but they do not cause me to change my business practices. I think the regulations on contractors are very reasonable, a bit lax considering how many are cutting corners and dong shoddy work that i have personally witnessed in the last 40+ yrs.. Do you want to see teh corps self regulation food quality and cleanliness in their plants? How about big pharma self regulating themselves? don't they have enough issues now with the FDA watching to make you wonder what they would do on their won?


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

There is no more good time (or bad time). In that I mean that if nothing is done the 14T will be 20T, then 40T in very few years. Our Grandkids will be talking about our dumb asses that didn't nut up and do the right thing at 14T.

You can like him or his curve or not, but Mr. Laffer drew the bell-shaped curve on a napkin to demonstrate a few simple and irrefutable concepts that were USED by others to formulate the trickle down concept that was used (and abused). Those concepts are: 1) If taxes are 0%, then the government gets no tax income. Okay, that's right. 2) If the tax rate is 100% then the government gets no tax revenue because who would work for free ? Still sounds straight up to me. 3) There is an optimum tax rate where the government makes the most tax income, but that exact percentage is not known because of the complexity and the non-static nature of the economy. I believe that there is an unknown optimum, yes. 4) and this is the ringer… as you view that curve, there are points on both sides of that maximum that are the same revenue but at greatly different tax rates. That is true. It is.



















Trickle down evolved from aiming for the lower level of taxation that would generate as much net income as the higher rate giving the same net result. I'm sure there were atrocious policy, law and regulatory errors made during and even in the name of "trickle down", but the basic concepts are sound. They are.

They should/must/will raise taxes at some point. Probably not across the board, but they will have to… including the rich. The budget and consequently spending must be cut first or at least simultaneously.

I believe the R's and the tea baggers are so adamant about large budget cuts first and taxes later (they'll have to concede that at some point) is because with the E branch and Senate D's in power, they know that raising taxes will just let them continue to make the gov't bigger and bigger. You know that's what would happen, too.

I personally wish that one of the party's was for all of the above (decrease the size of budget and government, cut defense spending to a level that is only as great as the total of the next 6 powers combined (instead of 15), strategically raise taxes to those that have it to pay, and as important as any of the others… make it the profitable thing to do for the rich and the corporations to put their money to work in the North American continent instead of in the bank or in the stock market or overseas.

At some point, the consumer has to take the blame for buying so much overseas crap back when there was a choice. There still is choice in certain areas. I personally will buy the domestic versus the overseas every time that I can justify it. I have owned two BMW's and a Mercedes years ago. I now only buy domestic vehicles and am the better for it I might add. I pay more to buy many things in my home town that I can get on-line for less because there is something to be said about pumping money into the local economy.

Guys, it has gone too far to even think that tariffs will be put in place to stem the flow of manufacturing from the US. The only one I am aware of since Obama took office was for tires. There was a 35% tariff a couple of years ago that gradually decreases in a few short years to nothing. That one thing raised a hell of a stink with the country that is toting our note. If they started a trade war we'd have far too many everyday items that would not be available at all. And to think we'd flip-flop back to immediately making all our own stuff is absurd. It would take a long time. Then when it did, we'd caca our chonies at the high price they would have to cost.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

A friend of mine used to be very active in the aerospace union before he retired. One year the talk was of saving American jobs. Tom told them there was a vote count in the parking lot. They voted by a wide margin to send jobs overseas!! Most people never look beyond their next meal or paycheck.

It is more than just trickle down, it is the union busting efforts, free trade and myriad of other issue together that have ended the greatest economic engine ever known. The greed of those who thought it was infinite is at the root of the fall.

BTW, I have never owned a foreign made vehicle and only driven one once; a friend's Porsche.


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

@TopamaxSurvivor, re: the Porsche… I am only jealous of the ride you took IF it was a 911 Turbo Carerra with the 930 slant nose mod.


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

Topa….I don't know where you got your numbers from but here is mine… I made less than 50K per year and took home $600 more a year after the 2001 tax cut and took home $1400 per year more after the 2003 tax cut. The idiots that want to cancel those tax cuts will make me pay $1400 per year more in taxes. I am single and I pay to educate other peoples kids with my property taxes. I started a business and made what I thought was a lot of money till I started paying all of the self employment taxes….I quickly closed up shop after seeing how much government taxes small businesses. Government needs to reduce the burden upon people and businesses not increase it.


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

I blame the 1960's genreation of social justice idiot for much of today's debt and government burden, but if we don't reduce debt and government spending our decendants will have the same opinion of my generation. Friends there are very tough times coming. The only way I believe that government can raise revenue and not burden our economy is tariffs on all foreign produced products and services.


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

Topa I agree with you that "free Trade" is killing us. It is flodding our country with cheap goods often made in sweat shops or slaves.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

Hey, *Grizz*, you're cool. Ain't nobody holding anything against you so don't worry.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I got the number form Thom Hartman. Your self employment taxes, FICA, are the reason middle class is supporting the gov't while the top earners walk free. They don't pay after 102K. Those that can least afford it support the general fund with the greatest share of their income since Reagan put the FICA taxes into the general fund to cover the massive deficits that started after his tax cuts on the richest of of us. No president since has bothered to change it back. They just compound the issues by finding more ways to hide the deficit. Bush, the dumbest, used special appropriations for his wars to keep it off the budget, even though the deficit was rising at unprecedented rates.

Until people admit both sides are totally corrupt we are screwed!


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

The worst taxes always come from the state and local government and that is loaded with waste.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

But Topa - the Social Security *benefits* are also 'Capped' just like the contributions.

Your benefits are based on what you put in (or that was the original goal) and it was a safety net, but the dems turned it into the defacto retirement program for the country.
This program "Absolved" companies from needing to provide and plan for pensions of their workers - they just pay their portion of FICA and Medicare and hand you a watch and a piece of cake.

It is true that people retired right now put into the system all their lives often starting with earnings as a teenager(myself included).
When it was formed it was supposed to ONLY be a safety net. However even when it started - you had people who retired and got benefits who never paid in..

Taxes were collected for the first time in January 1937 and the first one-time, lump-sum payments were made *that same month*. Regular ongoing monthly benefits started in January 1940. 
----------------------------------------
Ida May Fuller worked for *three years *under the Social Security program. The accumulated taxes on her salary during those three years was a *total of $24.75.* Her initial monthly check was $22.54. During her lifetime she collected a total of $22,888.92 in Social Security benefits Not bad - pay 25 bucks collect 23,000…how could a system like that ever go bankrupt?

It really is a Ponzi scheme - you are not just "Getting out *your* money" problem is it was formed when birth rates were much higher and lifetimes much lower so you had enough workers paying into the system to cover retirees.

There needs to be a system but the mechanism for the current one doesn't fit our demographics.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

That link about the rich's behavior is exactly the perception I have had of them all my life.

*But Topa - the Social Security benefits are also 'Capped' just like the contributions.*

*Your benefits are based on what you put in (or that was the original goal) and it was a safety net, but the dems turned it into the defacto retirement program for the country.
This program "Absolved" companies from needing to provide and plan for pensions of their workers - they just pay their portion of FICA and Medicare and hand you a watch and a piece of cake.*

I am not really sure how Dems turned it into a retirement system that absolved companies from the need to provide a retirement plan. I think you might look at Michael Milkin. He was the first of the notorious corporate raiders that saw the company pension funds as a cash cow free for the taking and he used junk bonds to finance his evil schemes. This is basically how Mitt Romney made millions; breaking up companies. That is just what we need for the next president; an expert job exporter! ;-((

The pension plans began to go away in the 80s. This is just another social program that the Rs hate.

The deregulation that Reagan started in the financial system. There was a banking panic in the US every 14 years from the beginning to 1935 when Roosevelt passed Glass Segal. There were none from 1935 until 1987 when the Savings and Loan crash occurred. It only took 4 or 5 years for deregulation of the S&Ls to destroy them.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*It really is a Ponzi scheme *

It is no more a Ponzi scheme than any other annuity or insurance program.


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

So how is insurance a ponzi scheme??? Or do you not understand a ponzi scheme?


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Just because they name it FICA doesn't make it an insurance policy
If as in the examples you begin collecting retirement benefits the same month the program is enacted…you sure as hell are not "Only withdrawing Your Money"

The Dems have turned it into a welfare program.
We have some engineers "From India" got their visa's etc and have become US Citizens. This is fine.
*They now bring their PARENTS over from the motherland (who are over 65). Their parents get SSI, even though they NEVER EVER worked a day in the US.* That is complete horse hockey to allow this!

Topa when i say the dems made it a defacto retirement plan - - I a pointing to the simple fact that once the government stepped in and decided they would "Take care of everyone in retirement" The Corporations were effectively off the hook to provide retirement. They no longer needed to compete in benefits, just give you your gold watch and tell you to call SSA to start your payments. FDR's goal (stated anyway) was to provide a safety net for widows, and perhaps those who worked at farms or part time, that never had a formal retirement option, to not become destitute.

A more cynical person than myself would say that there was Corporate and Govenment collusion before WWII for the Corps to buy off a few key congressmen to pass a law that the government would assume the responsibility to provide for their workers and pocket the added profits. That is different than the a-holes that raided pension funds


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

I have a whole life life insurance policy that I bought when i was in my 20's. I pay 200 per month and if I die my family gets 1 million dollars. If I don't die at the age of 65 I can take out 3500 per month till age 100 and my family gets 100-500k death benifit. And it is all garenteed Now tell me what the $400 I pay into social security give me???


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

As a program - initially it was stated to be a insurance plan for retirement - 
Interesting from an Actuarial standpoint - as they would look at funding it…to run it as an insurance company - you need to collect more than you pay out.
From the time the Social Security Act was passed - the retirement age was 65.
The average life expectancy in 1940 (the year they started with MONTHLY benefits) was 58 for men and 62 for women (who didn't often work back then - pre WWII)

So they had set up a plan for people to pay in all their lives with the EXPECTATION that well over 60% of the men who paid would never live long enough to get a dime. the 60% is because we are looking at who is alive 12% above the median life expectancy.

If we did the same kind of formula today where the average life expecancy for men is now 75 years old - and created a ïnsurance" entitlement that didn't pay until you now turned 84 (12% above the median)
the system is solvent for hundreds of years because it would never pay out.

But now we begin paying benifits starting 10 years BELOW the median in addition to all of the LEGAL immigrants we support without paying and the system collapses. Nevermind all the other classifications that get benefits.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

Are you suggesting that the normal Retirement Age be raised from 65 to 84?!
... Heaven forbid!


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

Yes, makes sense… BUT… too late… That'll teach those cheap bastards to cheat us out of our insurance proceeds! LOL
Thank God for the Medical field! LOL


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Excuuuusssseee Me, CR1:
FYI:
Legal Immigrants pay ALL US taxes,even though they cannot vote and they also pay the SS taxes.
I was an immigrant and paid ALL the taxes etc., for 18 years, then became a US citizen, still paid ALL the taxes for another 20 years, but then I could vote. *Legal Immigrants are not exempt any taxes, period.*
I've paid in a total of 38 years as an insurance to cope with retirement and old age, I never once complained about paying "my dues" and it offends me that people suggest the government should reneg on it's promises to those who paid into the system for many years. It is already bad enough that our SS checks have not had any inflation adjustments for years now, surely you all must know things are more expensive to live on today?????


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## Sarit (Oct 21, 2009)

Cr1, I think you misunderstand the phrase:

"It[*X*] is no more an *A* than any other *B*"

It means that if X = A then A = B. In the absence of X = A, the relationship between A and B is undefined. On the otherhand, if you show that A can never be B, and you believe the statement to be true, then you can conclude that X cannot be A either.

So when you are saying a Ponzi scheme (A) is not the same as Insurance (B) you are actually fueling topomax's argument. The question would be whether you agree with the statement of course.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*I feel everything is WELL & GOOD with Legal immigrants… * 

It's the *ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS that we are giving SS & Welfare * that URKS THE $#%$ OUT OF ME!

*That should NOT be happening… PERIOD! They shouldn't even BE HERE!!
That's what ILLEGAL MEANS!*


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

Rodger, not when they are being paid cash as day laborers. Being paid cash makes $10 an hour more attractive than $15 legit.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

I caught that, Sarit, but I was having too much fun reading


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

CR1, et al:
I thoroughly agree with Joe that NO handouts should be given to ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS. period. Most work "under the table" and pay no taxes but are given education, medical and SS handouts. It is an affront to legal US residents and citizens, the illegals get the free handouts and are a terrible burden on our country. I cannot understand why the immigration laws are not enforced, and these people deported with their SS offspring too.

I did not just arrive in the US to find work, I was recruited and asked to come and work in the US as a college professor due to my qualifications and experience. Even so, I was required to have a thorough background check, police report, full medical and demonstrate I had enough funds to find a place to live and enough for 1 year - minimum expenditures. All my required checks and medicals were at my expense, and it was 6 months before I was given the "green light" to enter the US as a permanent resident. It really pisses me off to to see illegal aliens not having to go through all that I went through, and pisses me even more that nobody seems to do anything about it. Kinda makes you feel like a fool for doing it properly.

I have not read all the post in this thread, lots of same old same old and blames exchanged - like if they are going to help us now? Today when watching a stock market broadcast, a reporter asked some guy who punters looked up to said: What America made it's money on was MANUFACTURING, and we need to go back to it… Yeah, Rah, Rah ….......somebody understands how to revive the US.

Oh yes, I really don't have any axe to grind with anyone on this thread, you are all saying what you think and feel - nothing wrong with that


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

Roger, where are you from?

*You're a man, a Legal Immigrant after my own heart! I applaud you Sir… Great Job!*
Did you learn English because of it?
If so, I'll bet you PROUDLY did it.

*I agree on the Manufacturing subject…*

I think we should be getting *Paid Back* for our Manufacturing Talents (which have been Given to the foreign country) by placing an Import Tax on all Manufactured goods from which USA Corporations that have moved their manufacturing to the foreign country… A tax to level (*or exceed* LEVEL to our favor) to help make up for the maneuver to save money by moving their manufacturing OUT of the USA.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Hey Joe, I'm a Brit, probably speak English better than most here. lol I was recruited while doing a three year engineering contract in Africa.
The US made it's fortune out of industrial/manufacturing for over 150 years, it worked. Stick with something that works.
I find US politics to be a little distasteful, it's like a carnival and just about every candidate at any level seems to be someone well connected to donations, money "war chests" and supporters all with their own business situation being enhanced should the person the support get elected. Spending millions or billions to elect a candidate, to me, is nothing short of a rigged election where "he who has most" wins. I much prefer the British system where there are strict limits on funding candidates, and no outside influences allowed. That way the "guy next door" stands a chance, here you have to be a well healed (supported) celebrity to be elected.

When Churchill was being interviewed on TV once, the interviewer stated that anyone in the US could become President. Winston's answer was: "Yes, and that's usually the problem". Cool. I feel that Statesmen should be elected to the Presidency, I don't believe that lawyers, actors, ranchers, soldiers, oil Barons et al, have enough political acumen to be effective on a world stage. Just my opinion.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Yankton, closing up your business because self employment taxes are too high isn't a very good idea. Incorporate, pay yourself a small wage and you eliminate self employment tax. You don't think the hedge fund managers on Wall Street pay that do you? 10 of them average 2 billion a year, the pay 15% capital gains, less than you pay in income tax and they get a lot of special laws allowing them to deduct future potential losses. You can buy a lot of Congressmen when you make 2 billion a year.

Yankton, you had better factor in a little bit of inflation on that ins policy. I had one of those when we first got married. A few years alter, I cashed it in. It was obvious a few hundred a month was not going to be worth anything by the time I turned 65 even though it was the median income at that time. A quickie way to figure is to use the rule of 72. Just divide a rate into 72. Interest rate or inflation rate, it will tell you how long it will take to double. The gov't has been telling us for years that the inflation rate is 3-3.5%. Morningstar says it is more like 4.5%, I think 10% is a good round number when you add in thet things the gov't calls temporary like the price of gas at the pump. 72/10 = 7; therefore, everything doubles in price every 7 years.

When I was 20 yrs old, gas was about .30, now 40 yrs later, it is 3.50. A new mustang was $3000, now it is 22,000. A house was 15,000, now it is 180,000 - 200,000 up. I went to school with kids whose dads worked for bit above minimum wage as farm laborers supporting a family with a stay at home mom. Try that today!! 10 years ago I got lunch for under $5, today it is usually $10. Inflation has been a hell of a lot more than what the gov't says.

BAck to SS. If I have an IQ that will support migraines, I know what ponzi scheme is ;-)) Let me rephrase, SS is supposed to be an insurance plan. All the immigrants collecting SSI is BS!! I had one next door from the Ukraine that I hadn't seen for a couple years. I guessed that she was probably dead and they were still collecting the SSI. A few months ago, she popped her head out of the house, then died a couple months later.

Illegals do not pay any taxes except sales tax. Most work under the table for cash. If all the legal taxes were paid, the employers may as well hire Americans, they wouldn't need illegals.

As far as I am concerned, until everybody admits the damn Democrats and raping Republicans are both corporate whores, you haven't got a snowballs chance in hell of fixing anything . This is really pointless to continue this. Things have to get a lot worse before enough people demand a president like the Roosevelts who reigned in the corporate monopolies and reestablish the middle class. I had hopes for Obama, but he ain't it. He thinks he can compromise with the Rs. 2%/98% isn't a compromise, it is the shaft for the working people of this country. It is getting to the point anyone not willing to be a criminal is screwed.

I hope a Dem challenges Obama this time. I doubt it will happen. If not, it may be 2030 before there is any sign of an economic turn around. That's my prediction and I'm sticking to it. Everyone thought I was nuts 10-15 years ago when I told them employment is dead and dying in the US. Bet they believe it now that their unemployment has run out and there is no sign of a job in the foreseeable future. In 1989, when the S&Ls went down, I forecast the whole damn thing would collapse between my 60th and 80th birthdays. Missed it by 6 months, only 59 1/2, but then I didn't expect we would ever elected an idiot like Bush, the dumber, to speed things up ;-((


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

When McCain Feingold to limit political spending in elections passed Congress, the Kings in the Supreme court who have been bought and paid for by the corps declared it unconstitutional;-(( The corps and 400 richest who own Congress know they will never win an election unless they can buy it. Just part of the cost of doing business.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

I agree Topa…SS is not an insurance plan.

Insuance plans have reserves established to cover future liabilities after premium income has ceased.

SS has no reserves to speak of. There really is no lock box. That is what gives it that ponzi look and feel.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

SS reserves have been borrowed and put into the general fund to cover the size of the deficits Reagan, Bush, the smarter, and Bush, the dumbest, have been running up taking our debt from less than 1 trillion to over 12!!

The reserves cannot be sold on the open market, they are held by the feds or treasury, I forget which. If there was nothing there of value, the Republicans would not be trying to privatize it for a big Christmas present to the Wall Street criminal organizations.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Here is what is wrong with our gov't: http://www.seattlepi.com/business/article/Boeing-spends-4-4-million-on-2Q-lobbying-1924037.php?utm_source=WhatCountsEmail&utm_medium=PIMail:%20Aerospace&utm_campaign=PIMail:%20Aerospace They are only one company! Lobbying will soon be the biggest sector of the economy surpassing health care. Now that the Kings have ruled no accountability required, expect all the foreign countries to establish US corps to get their licks in too ;-(( Many of them all ready do through the US Chamber of Commerce.;-((


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

"I went to school with kids whose dads worked for bit above minimum wage as farm laborers supporting a family with a stay at home mom. Try that today!! 10 years ago I got lunch for under $5, today it is usually $10. Inflation has been a hell of a lot more than what the gov't says."

If people today lived like they did then I figure it would be alot closer than you think. Just think of the costs today for things that people "just have to have".

In the 50's almost nobody had air conditioning in their house, now most poor have it.
In the 50's a well to do family had one television that used rabbit ears, today the poor have 52 inch plasma TV's with cable or sattelite. 
In the 50's the phone was to be used sparingly, today many families spend $200 a month on cell phone bills.
In the 50's families typically had one car, today find a family with one car…

You can live fairly cheaply if your willing to give up expensive cell phone plans (you can get by at $15 a month with prepaid), no cable, be a little hot in the summer and a little chilly in the winter, grow and hunt for your own food.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

patcollins: Agreed.
Inflation - determining cost of living increases demonstrates a government formula slanted to be untrue.
Food, rent, work transport, home repair, clothing, heating and cooling, utilities, taxes are some of the items that are legitimate expenses that everyone has to deal with. Certain other consumer goods should NOT be included in the formula; Refrigerators - mine is 11 years old, Televisions - do you replace yours every year?, Stoves/ovens - again, how many times a year do you buy these, vehicles - get a new one every year?, Furniture - etc., etc., you get the picture, items you would not purchase every year are part of the formula, and these items might cost less each year. So we get an unreal cost of living report which has no bearing on what the population actually paid more for to live during the year, just a deflated report including goods/services most people only purchase occasionally.

Yes you can live quite well frugally when you are aware of "what you need" and NOT "what you want". A good life can be had without the "necessary" un-nessaries, just let them go and be free.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

The average person in the middle class has actually gone backwards when considering what their income can actually purchase over the last 30 or 40 years. This is primarily due to inflation which is not so much an increase in costs so much as it is a slow devaluation of the value of our money. Our money is worth less than it was 30 or 40 years ago so it takes more dollars to buy things that are essential for living. Inflation is a hidden tax on the American people. Some inflation is due to other things - part of the increase of oil is due to the fact that we are running out of it for example. Part of the cost is due from things like increases in government regulation which causes less competition in the market place - in other words in many markets only a few large corporations can afford the increased cost of the regulation so smaller competitors are kept out. Things like this add to inflation. However, a large part of inflation is due to the nature of fiat currency. The politicians and bankers create more money than is required by the country's market place. They cannot resist the temptation. So the money slowly looses it's value over time.


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

helluvawreck - lets take food for example

In the 50's most families purchased raw unprepared meat, vegetables, and grains. Today after watching people at the grocery store it seems most by pre-prepared foods that add to the convience but cost more. You can buy a whole chicken much cheaper than a bag of chicken nuggets.

I particularly like watching the purchases of those that use the independence card (food stamps), I often see the single serving boxes of cerial that cost $1 each vs the $3.50 big box that would have about 6 servings in it, bags of chicken nuggets, boxes of easy mac and frozen dinners being rang up as the person talks on their I-Phone and and then goes to either their F-250 with a lift kit or an Escalade with spinners


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

FACT CHECK TIME
When McCain Feingold to limit political spending in elections passed Congress, the Kings in the Supreme court who have been bought and paid for by the corps declared it unconstitutional;-(( The corps and 400 richest who own Congress know they will never win an election unless they can buy it. Just part of the cost of doing business.

OK Fact check time…..a part of mccain feingold was declared unconstitutional. It was declared unconstitutional a year ago and has not been used in an election yet, 2012 will be the first election that it will have an affect. The provision that was declared unconstitutional prevented businesses an limited political groups from having the same right that unions enjoy during elections.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

The fact of the matter is 2 justices of the supreme court should be impeached for lying, other serious ethical violations and filing fraudulent financial statements. Saying your wife has no income when in fact she is getting 100k a year from an organization your rulings have serious impacts on is a serious matter. Congress needs to rein in the Supreme Court as provided in the Constitution, but it will not happen in my lifetime; maybe my grandson's after the people finally wake up and pay attention to the corporate gov't we have. The only real difference between being a slave to King George and the corps is there are 400 people instead of 1 to rebel against.

The effect of MCCain Finegold being declared unconstitutional makes it totally useless. A more recent Ruling called Citizens United, I think, make dialing for dollars a moot point as the owners of the gov't have unlimited ability to buy, buy, buy! At least Soros' taxes will go up if he is successful in some of his efforts. Warren Buffet is the only person in that calls that I really trust when he says anything.

As far a luxury items such as TVs and air conditioning, it is a bargain today compared to the 50s. That is an apples and oranges comparison. You can but a TV toady for less in real dollars, dirt cheap in inflation adjusted dollars. I can get a scientific calculator today for what I paid for my Picket slide rule in real dollars ;-)) The only reason I used the items I did was I knew the prices off the top of my head and they are items everyone buys. Today nobody comes close to a subsistence living on minimum wages, but they did in teh 50s and 60s. Matter of fact, I was able to make the median income for a few months the summer I graduated for high school working at minimum wage. Today it would have be 4 or 5x to do that. The fact is the median adjusted for inflation has dropped nearly 50% since 1980 when Reaganomics turned what had worked for over 20 years upside down.


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

Topa

TV's and airconditioning arent about being bargins today its about them not being necessary but people thinking they jsut have to have them and then whine that they are poor.

McCain-Finegold created more problems than it solved. It should have been a simple law, if it cant vote it cant make contributions period.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

*patcollins* SAID:
"TV's and airconditioning arent about being bargins today its about them not being necessary but people thinking they jsut have to have them and then whine that they are poor."

Last week:
Two days before Dolores Grissom was found dead from heat-related causes, someone stole the 79-year-old east Oak Cliff woman's air conditioner.

and
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/topstory/7695200.html


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I can relate to those heat death stories. My granddad died of heat stroke. Basically my uncle killed him when he stole their farm and put him in a 30 foot mobile home in the August Idaho sun. I have little doubt it was at least 130 F in there without air conditioning.


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

HorizontalMike

That is sad, and terrible that dirtbags will steal AC units that people paid for. But that has nothing to do with people that can't afford AC having to have it.

The human race survived for 100's of thousands of years without it.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Yeah but….... that was B4 global warming ;-))


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

*patcollins* SAID:
"The human race survived for 100's of thousands of years without it."

And the same could be said for medical care, language, writing, clothing, and even the "Wheel"... but I digress.


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## dakremer (Dec 8, 2009)

I disagree


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

My wife and I set up housekeeping in 1971 - I know for a fact what money could buy then compared to what it buys now by first hand experience. Everybody understands why electronics go down in cost - it is because of increases in technology and the scale of manufacturing after these products are established in the marketplace. The first computers cost maybe $1,000,000 probably much more with less power than a laptop has today that cost $1000. There should be no doubt in people's mind that money buys less than it did 40 years ago. What money buys now compared to even 10 years ago is significantly less. Gold has risen in value compared to the dollar ever since 1971. Yes a jagged curve for sure with lots of little ups and downs along the way but if all of the little jagged ups and downs in the curve are averaged out the cost of gold compared to the dollar has steadily risen over time when looked at on a more compressed scale. The point is it's overall direction has been up. I was born in 1950 in a hospital and it cost my father $25.00. He always told me, jokingly of course, that if I had cost $5.00 more that he would have returned me and gotten his money back. :-|


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## lwllms (Jun 1, 2009)

From 1950-1980 90% of us saw an income increase of 75%. From 1980-2008 it rose only 1%. Adversely, the wealthiest 10% from 1950-1980 had an increase of 80%, not much different from the rest of us, but from 1980-2008 their income rose 403% vs our 1%. A nice result of trickle down economics.

The GOP tells us corporations need lower taxes to create jobs but corporations are sitting with record cash balances on their balance sheets. At today's interest rates those cash reserves are contributing nothing. So where are all those jobs?

Consumption by the working class is the engine that drives the US economy. Working people aren't consuming because their wages have fallen, benefits have disappeared, and they have no job security if they're lucky enough to have a job. Corporations and the wealthy don't need relief, working people do and nothing will get better until there is some relief. The GOP has it all backwards and the Democrats are too disorganized, too busy searching for campaign contributions and too busy playing politics to fix this. We're screwed if we keep the same campaign finance system we have.


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## EEngineer (Jul 4, 2008)

Fact, look it up on the CBO site (non-partisan site that monitors government): Bush, during 8 years of presidency, increased the debt by $6.3T. 45% of the current $14T debt is due to Bush and Republican Congress. Most of the politicians raising hell about the "debt crisis" are the same ones who rubber-stamped the 8 or 9 times when the debt limit was raised under Bush. It seems that the problem to them is not overspending but who is overspending. Make no mistake: you put 'em back in power, it will be business as usual.

In the meantime oil companies, making record profits of $10B per quarter, are still receiving $4B a year in tax subsidies (yes, 1/10 of their yearly profits) and this is untouchable according to Republicans.


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## wseand (Jan 27, 2010)

I am watching Range Wars on the History channel. 1880s land/cattle wars. Cattle Barons killing homesteaders. Federal government has no idea what is happening. 1000s of cattle dieing from winter storms. The poor stealing cows from the wealthy. Men getting rich of the backs of the laborers. Nothing has changed, think it will any time soon.


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## wseand (Jan 27, 2010)

President Bush had two wars to fight, don't forget that. I believe the Democrats voted to go to war as well. Oh yeah I forgot, Obama is going to end the wars and close GTMO. Since OIF already had a date set for the withdrawal what happened to OEF and GTMO. 
So what does our Gov. do for us now, scare the poor and disabled into believing that they are going to decrease their benefits and possible not even pay them in August. 
Don't think for a minute that Congress has lost touch they never had a clue in the first place, nothing has changed in years. 
What has Clinton or Obama done for the country, not a damn thing useful. Obama had the opportunity of a life time to fix everything he said he was going to. But his own party turned against him, I don't see anyone dancing in the street for him anymore. His best bet is to cut his losses and go on the road with Clinton, and leave the Executive Branch to the big boys.

So I ask the the Democrats out there next time you vote, vote for a Democrat that actually has the stuff to make a difference. I think I would have rather have seen Clinton (the female one) in the Oval Office instead of Obama, well actually I know I would have preferred it.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Bush, the dumbest, had to lie to Congress about the evidence of WMDs to get them to go along with it. He told his biographer in 1998 or 1999 that he was not gong to waste his presidency like his father did. He was going to attack Iraq, get Saddam, be a war hero with lots of political capital and privatize Social Security. He decided to go to war before he was even elected! ;-(( It is really too bad that coward who hid in Congressional election offices while being AWOL from the Texas Air National Guard did not march on Wall Street instead of Baghdad if he wanted to stop terrorism. Those [email protected] will ultimately be responsible for more deaths of Americans that terrorists could ever hope to kill. They have totally destroyed the financial future and security of most of a generation. Now they are trying to get the next! We have not seen this level of destruction in the homeland that Wall Street has committed since Sherman cut a 60 mile wide swath across Dixie to end the Civil War!


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## wseand (Jan 27, 2010)

I certainly couldn't agree with ya anymore Topa, I am sure everything you said was dead on. I certainly don't care about the reasons he used to take a Crazy nut job like Saddam out. I certainly would hope that a country would help us out if we had him as a ruler.

I don't know Topa should our leaders fix Wall Street for us, is that what we do let the corrupt worthless government we are all talking about fix our problems? Maybe we can create another commission.


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## RonWoods (Aug 4, 2011)

There isn't much we can do now is there? Let's pray to God that it gets better very soon


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## EEngineer (Jul 4, 2008)

President Bush had two wars to fight, don't forget that.

Oh, I am not forgetting that at all! The second war, a personal grudge match, was all based on lies. Other presidents have fought wars without spending the economy into oblivion doing it. But Bush and "deficits don't matter" Cheney took the wars off the books, spent the country into ruin and then checked out just before the ******************** hit the fan.

As for Obama, if he grows a set after this last debacle with Congress, he may yet accomplish something. If he keeps rolling over in the name of bipartisanship, the Republicans will back him into a corner and take all the marbles. Then we may end up with that flat-earther Bachman in charge. You may yet wish for Obama back!


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

EEngineer,
Exactly!


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## dakremer (Dec 8, 2009)

No one knows if they were lies or not. U are assuming they were because of your prejudice against George Bush.


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## jeepturner (Oct 3, 2010)

"No one knows if they were lies or not. U are assuming they were because of your prejudice against George Bush."

Read this please.

One thing that is common in a good liar is that they know what you want to hear. 
One common thing about politicians is they know what the party faithful want to hear.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

cr1… *I agree 110%*


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*wseand* * should our leaders fix Wall Street for us*

Depends on whether or not you believe criminal activities identified by Eliot Spitzer as NY Atty Gen are a market risk or if the gov't should enforce the rule of law. Greenspan says fraud is a market risk and responsible people run the markets and financial institutions. It should be obvious to the most casual observer he is a naive fool and a complete imbecile. The only reasoned he was such a sensation was because he happened to be Fed Chairman when the dot come boom hit.

*U are assuming they were because of your prejudice against George Bush.*

I was a R and a Precinct Committee Officer. Bush, the dumbest, cured me of my ignorant ways. One of his transgressions was allowing a Texas company, Enron, to use the Fed Court system to enforce illegal contracts that were negotiated while Enron was illegally manipulating the energy markets. Bush, the dumber's, administration should have been prosecuting Enron, not aiding and abetting. If it had not been for Snohomish County, WA's efforts in subpoenaing Enron's tapes, we would have never known what an Evil Empire had been built on the backs of "Grandma's on SS." Remember the Enron traders laughing about grandmas taking it in the shorts on their tapes? Ken Lay and Andrew Fastow, ceo and cfo, should have been sentenced to life at hard labor. Unfortunately, Lay died of nautral causes while preparing for his trail and Fastow got a mere 6 years.

*Companies belong to people. They are private property. They are not public property.*

You obviously have not owned many shares or been involved enough to know how the publicly traded entities have been taken over by management for their own benefit. I am still getting litigation notices from stock I owned a decade ago when most of the big players were exposed as having filed fraudulent financials to drive their stock prices and prompt executive bonuses.

*The Media has become so disgracefully one sided*

That is 100% true. Reagan's end of the fairness doctrine and allowing monopoly ownership of the media outlets by 3 or 4 conglomerates ;has turned the "news" into an entertainment venue. There is very little real news reporting anymore. Anything you see on the news is for profit or propaganda. A few of the left's statements are allowed to keep the public stirred up. There is no way the Rs can do away with SS and Medicare and continue driving the middle class into the ground and win elections. The will never allow the truth about what the are doing and have done to us, US, to be aiired.


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## lwllms (Jun 1, 2009)

"That's what people in the leftist media keep telling us.
Has any one seen a single shred of evidence to support it?
I haven't…."

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704312104575298652567988246.html

Is the Wall Street Journal leftist? Wow, do you stand that far to the right of Murdoch?


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

It could be LOOKED AT from a different angle!

If it IS true about the Corporations being Cash Rich, *I ask you Why?*

*1. *They pay their taxes.

*2. * They pay their shareholders Dividends, but obviously not excessive.

*3. * Are they waiting for GOOD reasons to reinvest their Cash? (A pretty good Guess, I'd say)

*4. * There are obviously Reasons that they do not LIKE and are not reinvesting their cash!

*5. * What ARE those reasons?!

. . *a.* Uncertainty… ObamaCare 'could' put a tremendous burden on them… or maybe not… (???)

. . *b.* Uncertainty… How much more money is going to be wasted in the name of "Stimulus"? (???)

. . *c.* Uncertainty… How much more is going to be paid for insane PORK inserted in Spending Bills? (???)

... *and it can go ON & ON…*

*6. * What do you think has to happen that will make the Corporations want to spend their "hoard" of Cash?

*7. Remember,* when the condition has been met to get them to start reinvesting (spending & generating New Jobs), *all hell will break loose! Stock markets will SHOOT UP… Gold & Silver will DROP… and Unemployment will ALSO DROP! ... We will begin to get back to normal!!*

*8. * I'll give you *ONE GUESS* as to what the *FIRST* thing that has to happen to get the chain of events moving!

Let's see… it is now August… *in about 16 months, we will know the answer…*


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

In 16 months,, if Obummer doesn't get some changes started NOW, we will have a R president, 4 more years of corporate devastation, 2 or 3 corporate Supreme Court justices and little chance of any recovery short of another Revolution!! I am afraid the back lash, when ever it happens, will put us in a European style socialism, or worse!! ;-(( Unfortunately, it will be my grand kids who deal with the consequences of Reagan, Clinton, Bush the dumber and Obummer. I'm afraid these fools will elect Bachman!! ;-((


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Just got this email form a friend, a bit long, but good:

Hits the nail right on the head The people in England have been disarmed--no firearms!! If you try to defend your family or property--even with a stick--YOU go to jail and the perp sues you and the gvt gives the perp free med care and financial aid. BM

Subject: Mark Steyn is on my list of favorites

Hi everyone,
I find Mark Steyn's opinion pieces outstanding and he also brings some satire into the story that makes it even more interesting. This following piece is very enlightening.

A Compassionate Big Gov't Rewires A Nation Of Brutes
By MARK STEYN Posted 06:56 PM ET 
The trick in this business is not to be right too early. A week ago I released my new book - the usual doom 'n' gloom stuff - and, just as the sensible prudent moderate chaps were about to dismiss it as hysterical and alarmist, Standard & Poor's went and downgraded the United States from its AAA rating for the first time in history.
Obligingly enough, they downgraded it to AA+, which happens to be the initials of my book: "After America." OK, there's not a lot of "+" in that, but you can't have everything.
But the news cycle moves on and a day or two later, the news shows were filled with scenes of London ablaze, as gangs of feral youths trashed and looted their own neighborhoods. Several readers wrote to taunt me for not having anything to say on the London riots.
As it happens, Chapter Five of my book is called "The New Britannia: The Depraved City." You have to get up pretty early in the morning to beat me to Western civilization's descent into barbarism. Anyone who's read it will fully understand what's happening on the streets of London.
The downgrade and the riots are part of the same story: Big Government debauches not only a nation's finances, but its human capital too.
As part of my promotional efforts, I chanced to find myself on a TV show the other day with an affable liberal who argued that what Obama needed to do was pass another trillion-dollar - or, better yet, multitrillion - stimulus.
I think not. The London rioters are the children of dependency, the progeny of Big Government: They have been marinated in "stimulus" their entire lives. There is literally nothing you can't get her majesty's government to pay for. From page 205 of my book:
"A man of 21 with learning disabilities has been granted taxpayers' money to fly to Amsterdam and have sex with a prostitute." Hey, why not? "He's planning to do more than just have his end away," explained his social worker. "Refusing to offer him this service would be a violation of his human rights." 
Zombies In The Streets
Why does he need a Dutch hooker? Just another hardworking foreigner doing the jobs Britons won't do?
While the British Treasury is busy writing checks to Amsterdam prostitutes, one-fifth of children are raised in homes in which no adult works - in which the weekday ritual of rising, dressing and leaving for gainful employment is entirely unknown. One-tenth of the adult population has done not a day's work since Tony Blair took office May 1, 1997.
If you were born into such a household, you've been comprehensively "stimulated" into the dead-eyed zombies staggering about the streets this last week: pathetic inarticulate subhumans unable even to grunt the minimal monosyllables to BBC interviewers desperate to appease their pathologies.
C'mon, we're not asking much: just a word or two about how it's all the fault of government "cuts" like the leftie columnists argue. And yet even that is beyond these baying beasts.
The great-grandparents of these brutes stood alone against a Fascist Europe in that dark year after the fall of France in 1940. Their grandparents were raised in one of the most peaceful and crime-free nations on the planet.
Were those Englishmen of the mid-20th century to be magically transplanted to London today, they'd assume they were in some fantastical remote galaxy. If Charlton Heston was horrified to discover the Planet of the Apes was his own, Britons are beginning to realize that the remote desert island of "Lord of the Flies" is, in fact, located just off the coast of Europe in the northeast Atlantic.
Within two generations of the Blitz and the Battle of Britain, a significant proportion of the once-free British people entrusted themselves to social rewiring by liberal compassionate Big Government and thereby rendered themselves paralytic and unemployable save for nonspeaking parts in "Rise of the Planet of the Apes." And even that would likely be too much like hard work.
Here's another line from my book: "In Britain, everything is policed except crime." 
Her majesty's cowed and craven politically correct constabulary stand around with their riot shields and Robocop gear as young rioters lob concrete through store windows to steal the electronic toys that provide their only nonnarcotic or alcoholic amusement.
I chanced to be in Piccadilly for the springtime riots when the police failed to stop the mob from smashing the windows of the Ritz and other upscale emporia, so it goes without saying that they wouldn't lift a finger to protect less prestigious private property from thugs, some of whom are as young as 9 years old. And girls.
Yet a police force all but entirely useless when it comes to preventing crime or maintaining public order has time to police everything else.
When Sam Brown observed en passant to a mounted policeman on Cornmarket Street in Oxford, "Do you know your horse is gay?" he was surrounded within minutes by six officers and a fleet of patrol cars, handcuffed, tossed in the slammer overnight and fined 80 pounds.
Brown's "homophobic comments," explained a spokesmoron for Thames Valley Police, were "not only offensive to the policeman and his horse, but any members of the general public in the area." 
The zealous crackdown on Sam Brown's hippohomophobia has not been replicated in the present disturbances. Anyone who has so much as glanced at British policing policy over the last two decades would be hard-pressed to argue which party on the streets of London, the thugs or the cops, is more irredeemably stupid.
This is the logical dead end of the Nanny State. When William Beveridge laid out his blueprint for the British welfare regime in 1942, his goal was the "abolition of want" to be accomplished by "co-operation between the State and the individual." In attempting to insulate the citizenry from life's vicissitudes, Sir William succeeded beyond his wildest dreams.
As I write in my book: "Want has been all but abolished. Today, fewer and fewer Britons want to work, want to marry, want to raise children, want to lead a life of any purpose or dignity." The United Kingdom has the highest drug use in Europe, the highest incidence of sexually transmitted disease, the highest number of single mothers, the highest abortion rate. Marriage is all but defunct, except for William and Kate, fellow toffs, upscale gays and Muslims.
Shrinking Citizens
From page 204: "For Americans, the quickest way to understand modern Britain is to look at what LBJ's Great Society did to the black family and imagine it applied to the general population." 
I believe it is regarded as a sign of insanity to start quoting oneself, but at the risk of trying your patience I'll try one more, because it's the link between America's downgraded debt and Britain's downgraded citizenry:
"The evil of such a system is not the waste of money but the waste of people." 
Big Government means small citizens:
It corrodes the integrity of a people, catastrophically. Within living memory, the city in flames on our TV screens every night governed a fifth of the earth's surface and a quarter of its population.
When you're imperialists on that scale, there are bound to be a few mishaps along the way. But nothing the British Empire did to its subject peoples has been as total and catastrophic as what a postgreat Britain did to its own.
There are lessons for all of us there.
© Mark Steyn, 2011


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

Topamax

The one thing I hear over and over is Bush lied about Iraq WMD's. I have issue with this, If he lied about WMDs don't you think Hillary would have known that Iraq did not have them? She was privy (I assume through Bill) just two years earlier whether or not Saddam had them or not.

The truth is Saddam pulled the wool over everyones eyes about them to keep Iran from trying to get some payback for the Iran/Iraq war of the 80's.

I am no GWB lover, he achieved more of the democrats agenda than any democratic president ever could while getting a free pass because of his social conservativism.

I seriously doubt that someone that will make a good president is electible in this day and age.

Your bias is very clear.

I will go on the record and say my political leanings are libitarian, socially liberal and financialy conservative.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

That [email protected][email protected]'s administration did nothing but praise the criminals who cost my wife and I over $500,000. You can be sure I have no love for Bush the dumbest.


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## Bosketti (Jun 5, 2011)

helluvawreck,

It's off topic but I saw your post and had to share my story. Ok, It's more of my folks story but I was involved.

When my mom was in the hospital to have me back in `70 they had just broke open the seal on a new IV when she went into labor.

They charged $8 for that and at check out when my dad was looking over the bill he complained that she never received the IV.

They said it didn't matter, the seal was broken, they had to charge for it.

As my mom sits in the wheelchair holding me, my dad looks at the billing clerk and says "Let me know when he turns 18" and turns to leave.

They caved.


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## EEngineer (Jul 4, 2008)

No one knows if they were lies or not. U are assuming they were because of your prejudice against George Bush.

Well, lessee:
1. He had WMD - well, no he didn't. We've been crawling over that country for damned near 10 years now and found NO evidence.
2. He had ties with Al Quaeda - well, no he didn't. Don't believe me? Then believe every intelligence expert he had at the time he declared this. They all told him so; he ignored them. He felt that Al Quaeda was a threat and dealt harshly with any incursion into his country. The only Al Quaeda presence in that country occurred after we tore down his regime. Google it. 
3. He was involved in the Twin Towers attack - well, no he wasn't. Don't believe me? Then believe every intelligence expert he had at the time he declared this. They all told him so; he ignored them. Google it.

You are mixing up cause and effect. I am not assuming Bush told lies because I hate him. Quite the opposite! I hate Bush because he lied to the American people and cost American lives in a war based on those lies.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

OK, *two very simple questions* (and I think require very *simple answers)*.

*1. *Right NOW, is it *better* to *spend* more money *OR* *STOP spending *in order *to fix our Economy?*

. . . . *Answers:* . . Continue Spending . . . . . Stop Spending

*2. *What *Party* do you think will *do YOUR answer* to *#1?*

Be sincere now…


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

EEngineer please watch this video of Bill Clinton saying the same things Bush did in 1998.






Please explain


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

Good video, Pat…

I'm waiting for the explanation too!


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## wseand (Jan 27, 2010)

This is what I have to say about the War. This war needed to happen, we haven't had a more deserved hanging in this world in a long time. Saddam was a brutal murderous dictator and needed to be hung til he died. Oh, poor me I was lied to, soldiers live and die to save lives, yours, mine, our citizens and those of other countries. I can guarantee you there was a lot more found in Iraq then you will ever know.

Don't ever tell a soldier that the war was based on lies, he was there to save lives. I can also guarantee you that most soldiers were there to free a nation from a sick individual, help a nation in need, and save lives.

You should really worry about America's addiction to drugs which is causing 1000s of lives to be lost in Mexico. They are projecting 5000 death in Juarez this year alone, tell me how great a nation we are.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

If we keep fighting these wars which have nothing to do with 911 or us, and if we keep trying to run the world and be it's policeman and doing the bidding of the United Nations, and spending as much on defense as all the rest of the countries combined, then we will one day be so broke that we will not even be able to defend ourselves from an attack on our own shores.

The president does not have the power to declare war. According to the Constitution only the Congress has the power to declare war. The founding fathers warned us about getting involved with every war that comes along and that we should concentrate on the defense of our on nation.

Bin Laden could have easily been taken prisoner or killed within a year if we had simply sent in teams of undercover special forces and placed a price on Bin Ladden's head of $1 Billion. $1 Billion is a large some of money and people would not have been able to resist the temptation. We would have had his head on a silver platter within one year. If not for $1 Billion then certainly $10 Billion. How much have we spent on these wars?

In case anyone is paying attention our country is going broke fast. If our currency looses it's reserve currency status, our standard of living will will drop like an anvil on it's way to the bottom of the ocean. The people and countries in this world are getting tired of buying our treasury notes - especially at zero percent interest. By 2020 our debt will be $20 Trillion - it's probably going to be more like $25 Trillion. This is a very serious problem, INMO and a whole lot of other people as well and we're not doing very much about it.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

One other thing, instead of preventing terrorism I believe these wars are actually causing deep hatred towards us and are actually manufacturing new terrorists by the thousands - maybe by the tens of thousands. If we attack countries that pose no threat and where we have no business attacking what else should we expect?


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

"No one knows if they were lies or not. U are assuming they were because of your prejudice against George Bush."

Wow.

Take a few minutes, and look into these two subjects:

1) Douglas Feith,

2) Office of Special Plans

Seriously. I'll even "offer" that you can pick your own sources ;-)


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

An East Indian friend of my, recent immigrant told me their intelligence told Bush Admin to forget the caves in Afghanistan, he is in Pakistan. Bush needed Bin Laden on the lamb and the hunt for him. The buffoon had nothing else to offer the people of this country and keep his base behind him. His 8 yrs are responsible for 1/3 of the national debt. Read this: http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/01/26-0 Things make a lot more sense after you know what the are trying to accomplish. I had always wondered why the conservatives I had always supported were running up the debt so badly and why it was the liberals who were more fiscally conservative?

Did you hear BAchman saying she is glad unemployment is up. It will make it easier for her to win the Oval Office. That is outrageous for a leading candidate for national office to use the destruction of the country as leverage for her campaign. The biggest trouble is, the whole party has been trashing this country, the middle class and the economy for the 2012 election. The Rs held the Stimulus Package hostage until the "by American" clause was taken out. That is outrages!! Our tax dollars gong to China to stimulate their economy. There [email protected][email protected] need to be hung for treason. We are in a war, an economic war for survival. The damn Rs are the enemy along with their allies such as China and the National Chamber of Commerce.


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## RonWoods (Aug 4, 2011)

This is no news, I mean we all know at times if not all the time those guys are just there to spend out money and argue even on things that are so clear and simple just because they say there are republican and democrats. Are we not all Americans?


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I do not believe some of them are any more. When they are support foreign destruction of our economy and causing unprecedented misery for the poor and middle classes, how can they be Americans? I do not believe we have had a decent human being or an American in the White House since Jimmy Carter. He is the only one who has made a postive contribution to anything after leaving it.

Regan went to Japan for to make a millon dollar speach 6 weeks later. Wonder what the cost us?

Slick Willy Clinton sold us down the tube on NAFTA and GAT for his own person gains ;-(


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

$1 Billion is far greater that $27 Million. $10 Billion is 10 times greater than $1 Billion. Even $50 Billion would have been a bargain.


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## Sarit (Oct 21, 2009)

lwllms,
How does reporting on corps stockpiling cash in record amounts leftish?
If you don't understand economics it may be leftish to you, but its purely economic news to me.

A large part of economic recovery is job creation. A way to get that is to allow corps access to cheap money, which in turn they can use to buy capital and/or hire more people. What the article shows is that corps are keeping much larger cash reserves than before as insurance against a more difficult lending environment and more fluctuations in the economy. This goes to show you that our policy of cheap money isn't having the job creating effects it used to have.

What makes this article leftish to you?


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

For those Liberals studying current revisionist history - 
The ones calling the Tea Party Terrorists for daring risk the *Full Faith and Credit of the United States *- and complaining about hostage taking, and how we have raised the debt ceiling so many times before -

Here is the 2006 Vote when Bush was in Charge http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=2&vote=00054
Look at the list and you see that 100% of the democratic party voted NO (Nay actually) on raising teh debt limit last time in 2006. Not just some wacked out group of leftist hostage takers and terrorists - the whole group voted NO! And that was all prudent, and honorable forcing of the debate….

So…*Why was voting no on the debt limit Patriotic in 2006 and a terorist act to drive the economy off a cliff in 2011???*

Grouped By Vote Position YEAs--52 
Alexander (R-TN)
Allard (R-CO)
Allen (R-VA)
Bennett (R-UT)
Bond (R-MO)
Brownback (R-KS)
Bunning (R-KY)
Burr (R-NC)
Chafee (R-RI)
Chambliss (R-GA)
Cochran (R-MS)
Coleman (R-MN)
Collins (R-ME)
Cornyn (R-TX)
Craig (R-ID)
Crapo (R-ID)
DeMint (R-SC)
DeWine (R-OH)
Dole (R-NC)
Domenici (R-NM)
Enzi (R-WY)
Frist (R-TN)
Graham (R-SC)
Grassley (R-IA)
Gregg (R-NH)
Hagel (R-NE)
Hatch (R-UT)
Hutchison (R-TX)
Inhofe (R-OK)
Isakson (R-GA)
Kyl (R-AZ)
Lott (R-MS)
Lugar (R-IN)
Martinez (R-FL)
McCain (R-AZ)
McConnell (R-KY)
Murkowski (R-AK)
Roberts (R-KS)
Santorum (R-PA)
Sessions (R-AL)
Shelby (R-AL)
Smith (R-OR)
Snowe (R-ME)
Specter (R-PA)
Stevens (R-AK)
Sununu (R-NH)
Talent (R-MO)
Thomas (R-WY)
Thune (R-SD)
Vitter (R-LA)
Voinovich (R-OH)
Warner (R-VA)

NAYs--48 
Akaka (D-HI)
Baucus (D-MT)
Bayh (D-IN)
Biden (D-DE)
Bingaman (D-NM)
Boxer (D-CA)
Burns (R-MT)
Byrd (D-WV)
Cantwell (D-WA)
Carper (D-DE)
Clinton (D-NY)
Coburn (R-OK)
Conrad (D-ND)
Dayton (D-MN)
Dodd (D-CT)
Dorgan (D-ND)
Durbin (D-IL)
Ensign (R-NV)
Feingold (D-WI)
Feinstein (D-CA)
Harkin (D-IA)
Inouye (D-HI)
Jeffords (I-VT)
Johnson (D-SD)
Kennedy (D-MA)
Kerry (D-MA)
Kohl (D-WI)
Landrieu (D-LA)
Lautenberg (D-NJ)
Leahy (D-VT)
Levin (D-MI)
Lieberman (D-CT)
Lincoln (D-AR)
Menendez (D-NJ)
Mikulski (D-MD)
Murray (D-WA)
Nelson (D-FL)
Nelson (D-NE)
Obama (D-IL)
Pryor (D-AR)
Reed (D-RI)
Reid (D-NV)
Rockefeller (D-WV)
Salazar (D-CO)
Sarbanes (D-MD)
Schumer (D-NY)
Stabenow (D-MI)
Wyden (D-OR)


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

So what does everyone think about the *$16,000,000,000,000 ($16 Trillion)* that the Federal Reserve loaned out at 0% interest between 2008 and 2010 to various banks, corporations, and businesses? BTW this has nothing to do with the other bailouts. Nothing to do with QE1 and QE2.

Here's a link to an article . *I don't know anything about this site so go at your own risk*. It was just a convenient place to read about it. The Google search was federal reserve loaned 16 trillion .

However, notice that you can follow a link to the General Accounting Office's audit of the federal reserve that turned these loans up. Requiring the General accounting office to do a partial audit of the Federal Reserve is due to Ron Paul, Bernie Sanders, and a few others getting passed an amendment to the Dodd Frank bill. These $16 Trillion in loans has hardly appeared in any major media. I guess that they figured the American people wouldn't be interested. I mean it's only $16 Trillion - just pocket money.

I found out about these loans by going to some of the financial and economic sites that I go to regularly.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Unfortunately CR I think you are Right:
It slays me that the couple dozen republican No votes are "radicals willing to crash the economy" as though democrats have been some kind of historical bridge builders - yet they voted NO straight down the line when Bush was president - as if the results of slamming into the debt ceiling would have been any different 5 years ago than today.

Latest on the road
Obama's bus tour stopped in Minnesota on Monday and the president proudly proclaimed: "I have no problem with folks saying 'Obama cares.' I do care."

He really wants everyone to magically believe that the people making reference to OBAMACARE - have actually been saying *Obama-Cares*.....lord talk about *Heres Your Sign!*


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

He is the only president who even acted like he cares about us peons since Jimmy Carter.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

I feel like the economy-in many ways-collapsed around 2008, though-particularly financial services-responsible for issuing credit.

That could make a difference.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

But refusing to add to the debt ceiling in 2006 would have let to EXACTLY the same default including threats to SS, Medicare, VA benefits and all the usual suspects that are thrown out there before talking about pork spending.

I agree that financial services - especially Fannie and Freddie are worse - - - but the IMPLICATIONS OF DEFAULT are *absolutely identical…*except to the hopellessly partisan folks.

The Democrats were willing to sit back with a glass of wine and watch the fireworks as we "Went under" with Bush at the helm.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

And every president before him.


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

"Did you hear BAchman saying she is glad unemployment is up. It will make it easier for her to win the Oval Office."

Not saying she did not say this, but I want to see proof.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

But Still Neil - Why aren't the dimocrats "terrorists and Hostage takers"?
Instead the mainstream press like Katie Couric and others in addition to the talking heads on MSNBC all fully ran with the narrative how dissent is patriotism, but now Dissent is Racism.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

Lest anyone thinks I'm somebody besides just a regular person, the main reason that I'm interested in all of this, *besides the fact that I love my country*, is that I see my wife and I and a whole host of regular people, after a lifetime of hard work, living out a poverty stricken old age - not even to mention what sort of lives our children and grandchildren will live out. I don't particularly have any kind of axe to grind.


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

Remember to VOTE next election!


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Howie:
Jumping the fence to vote will only get your balls hung. It's just one corrupt government after another.


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## dakremer (Dec 8, 2009)

did someone above tell me to *google* something in order to PROVE once and for all that Bush lied or not???? maybe thats the problem. People are *googling* too much


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Hey Roger - then they cast them in plastic and sell them as "Truck Nuts" for your trailer hitch ;-)


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

DrDirt:

So I guess then you have an uncontrollable trailer, pulling to the left and to the right. )


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

*
"Why was voting no on the debt limit Patriotic in 2006 and a terorist act to drive the economy off a cliff in 2011"

Because politicians think we are all dumber than dirt.*

We elected Obama didn't we?


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

cr1:
*
"it was coming off the gold standard without any solid fiscal restraints that led to the insane spending."

*

*I agree 200% LOL
*
That's when we discovered "The Money Tree"!

Now, did we really HAVE to do it? I wonder what the pressing condition was that made it happen…


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*Did Bush Lie about WMD's?*

*Posted by Patcollins:*

*"... please watch this video of Bill Clinton saying the same things Bush did in 1998.






Please explain" 
*

dakremer, et al:

*OK, did he or didn't he LIE about WMD's!!*

*I want to hear some answers to that question!
*


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## dakremer (Dec 8, 2009)

Well obviously Bill Clinton was NOT lying…and then events changed over the years….and then Bush lied. We ALL "know" Bush lied….because we read a clever book saying he did, and of course we all hate him because he's not a great orator. Of course good ole Bill can do no wrong…..oh wait…..there was that one thing…...man, what was it?....ugh…...I just cant put my penis…..i mean my finger on it…...


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

Monica could… LOL


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

Have a cigar… you'll go far.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*"Thank you very much!" 
"I did not have … with that woman!"*
LOL LOL


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Slick Willy and Bush the dumbest, what a pair;-(( Slick left the Middle East with unprecedented levels of violence since the Crusades and introduced oral sex to elementary schools all over the country. Bush the dumbest left the country bankrupt and in shambles just like everything else he ever touched in his life. Now we have a spineless wimp who will fix nothing ;-(( He is shaping up to be the final nail in the middle class coffin.


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## dakremer (Dec 8, 2009)

I think you could probably put "-the dumb" suffix behind 95% of the politicians. Maybe they should all get fired, and we can just start over. Well maybe not because then instead of just getting bribed by them….oil companies, cigarette companies, and pharmaceutical companies will just directly run for office…..guess it wouldn't be that much different


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

I'm beginning to think that Slick Willy* LIED* about the WMD… and Bush proved he was Dummer by believing HIM! LOL

*(tongue in cheek)*

... oh well… someone had to do it… Oh well… It wasn't MY fault!... Thank God!


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*"I think you could probably put "-the dumb" suffix behind 95% of the politicians. Maybe they should all get fired, and we can just start over."*

Might not be a bad idea… *Go Go Go Tea Party… The only thing in sight that has a chance!*

*New BLOOD!*


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

sing what ever song you want

u live beyond your means, and have for long time

whats next?………. a 200,000 dollar debt to each and every american child not yet born?

seems odd


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*dakremer* I have mentioned a couple times that we are very close to fascism as defined by Mussolini, but I guess most didn't pick up on it or have it confused with the other practices of the Nazis. There is very little difference between the corps sending their own reps to Congress or just buying the ones that are already there. Results are the same either way.


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## dakremer (Dec 8, 2009)

I was going to bring that point up in your other forum topic, Topamax. I'm afraid 20+ years down the road we'll see that what the pharmaceutical companies are doing to our healthcare is about as bad as what the Nazis did to the jews. And our government is allowing it to happen - heck, they are profiting from it. Going for my doctorate in Chiropractic and actually learning what health is, and what the body can do innately - it makes me horrified how twisted we've got our healthcare system. It's not hard to see why our economy is in such bad shape and why we are in so much debt when you look at our healthcare costs each year. You'd think before spending that kind of money on something, you'd want to make sure it works first. Its been proven over and over that it DOESNT work, so not sure what "-the dumbs" are thinking. I know i'm confused


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

BIG money rules the roost. Warren Buffet, John Boggle, founder of Vangaurd and Bill Gorss of PIMCO are the only people I know of who have it for whom I have any respect. I am sure there are a few more of their caliber, but not many ;-((


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

*Topa*, check out Jim Rogers. He's a very conservative sound money investor that tells the politicians like it is. That they are destroying our financial system. He was once a partner with George Soros, however, he has hardly anything in common with Soros. They are completely different.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

Her's an article I just read that has some insight. Dont' agree with it all but so what.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Maybe it is congress that needs to pay their fair share and actually not be exempt from the crap they pass?

This is a really interesting site - you can look at spending by race - by donors to campaigns, by Senate or House, and by year. Even lists all the earmarks and who brings home the bacon

http://www.opensecrets.org/outsidespending/index.php


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

helluvawreck: (et al)

I agree with this Article you posted…

Damn shame… Sickening… You'd think we could do a better job…
Wish we still had Thomas Jefferson & friends to keep us straight… Now, to fix it…

It's time to "Bite the Bullet" and start being "responsible" in OUR governmental actions…

If WE don't do something FAST, Everyone MUST Understand… This Clip *will come true too…*

*"Good bye cruel world"...* (Giant FLUSHING sound)


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

*Joe*, here's two more essays that I read this morning - article 1 and article 2 - Actually I read them both twice. I don't know if the figures and statements are all correct. But even if they are off a third some of them are quite shocking. Apparently, we are increasingly entering a time where the top wealthiest increasingly have a larger share of everything including power where as the rest of us are increasingly having a lower and lower standard of living with less power. However, when we are actually bailing out these people and loaning them more money at 0% it is actually quite shocking. Of course, like I said, I don't know if the figures and statements are all correct. However, I do find some good articles on this site from time to time and some good investment information.


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

Politicians run for office because they are scared as hell to have to work under the laws they passed.

Roger: I'm not jumping the gun on voting for anyone. I've just made up my mind that they are all alike so I will not vote for anyone that is in office today, at the next election. Be it local or national. I voted independent the last time. I'm fed up with the whole bunch.


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

Another good read…

http://news.yahoo.com/nixons-colossal-monetary-error-verdict-40-years-later-140035743.html


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

How about using the kW hour (or MW hour) as the new universal monetary standard ? It's useful, measurable and verifiable, very "liquid", sustainable, will never run out, can be "made" anywhere and used anywhere in the world, etc.

LOL The price of oil could be mathematically determined by the actual energy it can generate minus the cost to actually deliver and convert it.

Need more "currency"? Ramp up the "currentcy" ! Pun obviously intended. Money and power are already in bed together… might as well let 'em have at it. ;=)

Simultaneously, its creation by more efficient means would be a great positive to the worlds economy and "green" endeavors.

Hmmm.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

OK, Nixon screwed us with the Gold Standard stuff… 40 years ago…

Yes, I agree he was wrong (I think… don't know why he did it)...

*NOW WHAT?!!*

*You going to sit crying in your tears?!*

*You going to Stand UP and do what YOU think is right?!*


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

Who's crying ? Who are you yelling at, Joe ? lol

I don't care who did what, but it's what it changed into that is the problem. Going back to a gold standard would not be the answer. It's too arbitrary, is finite and is mined in S. Africa and Russia mainly. There's not enough to cover what's out there now. Can't go back.

There could/should be SOMETHING that it can be tied to that is none of those things. I was just musing about the "joules standard", but it actually makes more sense than gold does now.

The fractional reserve banking system is the great inflator of ALL the bubbles before and to come. It effectively creates money from nothing by the wrong people (bankers).

I've never been a big "conspiracy" guy and never will. This is not that since it is well known, has been a battle for centuries and has been put in its place before… here in the US.

So all the above talk about D's and R's and what they did or said or didn't do is horse hockey. Moot. There's all your crying. Talk of whether the rich are evil and where to draw the taxation lines and what has to be cut are just scratching in the dirt just to get by this debt debacle. The numbers do not add up for a traditional fix of austerity, higher taxes and budget cuts. Maybe keep it from getting worse, but not to fix it.

If only Ron Paul weren't such a space cadet on foreign policy, he'd be my man. Or Kucinich if he were "complete".

We need a hero, Joe. At least one, but a group of them would be better.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

Excellent article, *David*. It's a very sound article. David, gold is about the best thing for sound money to be tied too. It has a track record of thousands of years. The fact that it is still minded doesn't make any difference because the economy of the world grows so what's backing up the money will grow in value because the economy of the world will always grow faster than the qty of gold so gold will always grow in value because the demand for it is always greater than the supply. It has maintained it's value for thousands of years and that's why it can be used for something to back up a monetary system. I can tell you this - central banks all over have started to buy it at an accelerated rate. *Isn't it common sense to have something like gold back up the monetary system instead of something like hot air?*

Gold is minded in a number of places. Just like anything else, it becomes an export. It is actually a commodity. A small amount is also used in industry.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*
An interesting Site that has everyone running, 
or thinking about running, for President in 2012.
*


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

I just received this in an email from ACT… couldn't find a link to the same thing…

*=============== Start ======================*
Secretary of State Hillary Clinton 
working with UN, OIC to criminalize free speech!

Dear …..

*The assault on our Constitution continues. *

As we have reported extensively, Captain Paul Fields was disciplined for refusing to obey an order that violated his constitutional rights. We are certain a Muslim police officer would not have been ordered by the Tulsa police chief to attend Christian church services and Sunday school classes.

*Now read the latest attack on our freedoms below*, posted recently in Jihad Watch (highlights added). The OIC (Organization of the Islamic Conference) continues its assault on free speech at the UN through the advance of resolution 16/18. This resolution, cloaked in terms such as "defamation of religion," *is a thinly veiled attempt to criminalize speech that criticizes Islam. *

But now, in an ominous development, according to a story published by the International Islamic News Agency, *Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has joined the effort to implement this effort to criminalize free speech. *

----------------------------------------

*Secretary of State Clinton says State Department will coordinate with OIC on legal ways to implement UN's resolution criminalizing "defamation of religion" *

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/08/secretary-of-state-clinton-says-state-department-will-coordinate-with-oic-on-legal-ways-to-implement.html

*Moving rapidly to criminalize telling the truth about how Islamic jihadists use the texts and teachings of Islam to encourage violence and supremacism.* Free Speech Death Watch Alert, and an update on this story: "OIC/Islamophobia: OIC Observatory warned since 2009 against the growth of the extreme right in Europe, Washington plans to host a meeting on resolution opposing defamation of religions," from the International Islamic News Agency, August 1 (thanks to all who sent this in):

JEDDAH, Ramadan 1/Aug 1 (IINA)-During the next few months, Washington plans to host a coordination meeting to discuss with the Organization of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) how to implement resolution no. 16/18 on combating defamation of religions, and how to prevent stereotypes depicting religions and their followers; as well as disseminating religious tolerance, which has been endorsed by the UN Human Rights Council last March, in agreement with Western countries. The resolution was adopted after lengthy discussions held between the OIC and countries in which the phenomenon of Islamophobia is in the rise.

*The U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton had announced the intention of the U.S. State Department to organize a coordination meeting during her participation in the meeting which she co-chaired with the OIC Secretary General, Professor Ekmeleddin Ihsanoglu in Istanbul on 15 July 2011. The meeting issued a joint statement emphasizing the dire need for the implementation of resolution 16/18. *

According to informed sources in the Organization of Islamic Cooperation, the two sides, in addition to other European parties, will hold a number of specialized meetings of experts in law and religion in order to finalize the legal aspect on how to better implement the UN resolution.

The sources said that the upcoming meetings aim at developing a legal basis for the UN Human Rights Council's resolution which help in enacting domestic laws for the countries involved in the issue, as well as formulating international laws preventing inciting hatred resulting from the continued defamation of religions.

On the other hand, the OIC Secretary General, Ekmeleddin Ihsanoglu, stressed that the crime committed recently in Norway was a result of the rise of the extreme right in Europe and its easy mobility in political circles. He said that the OIC had warned several times against of what might be called institutionalization of the phenomenon of Islamophobia through the involvement of the European extreme right in government institutions and political action….

*=============== End ======================*

*Does NOT look good…*

The UN is also being used to supposedly establish a *"Treaty"* between the *USA* and the *UN* with the whole purpose being to DISARM the USA aka *Gun Control bypassing the Constitution all together!*

To me, such a Treaty should be deemed illegal and NOT enforceable…

*Any ideas on how to STOP using the UN for this type of manipulation?*


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## EEngineer (Jul 4, 2008)

did someone above tell me to google something in order to PROVE once and for all that Bush lied or not???? maybe thats the problem. People are googling too much

Then what would you use as sources? I read newspapers, subscribe to several magazines and watch many sources of news on cable. It is all on the Web, indexed and searchable. Not having access to the raw data (a consequence of the Patriot Act, among other things) just what sources do you have beyond that?

Now I am not saying that everything on the Web is true… Hell, no! But there was never a case when researching things in a library with printed material where you didn't verify information with other sources, research the underlying assumptions in any source, etc, etc. Any truth will hang together in that kind of research, any fabrication or bad assumptions will fall apart under that kind of research.

The picture that emerges from the Bush/Cheney decision process to invade Iraq shows the exact opposite of research like that. They started with a foregone conclusion, "cherry-picked" the data by revealing anything that supported that conclusion and ignoring anything that disputed it. In the end, regardless of what we say here, almost 10 years of searching Iraq has revealed NO WMD and NO facilities for making WMD (beyond one abandoned plant that ceased operation around 1992). The same with ties to Al Quaeda, the same with ties to the 9/11 attacks.

You strike me as someone who knows what he knows and just won't be swayed by facts. So be it.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

*Joe*, the UN has been doing these sorts of things for years. Check out the International Criminal Court, The Law of the Sea Treaty, Agenda 21 - it just goes on and on and on - our nation's laws are slowly being conformed to the UN's standard through all the stupid treaties that we sign. The only thing that can be done about it is put some people in Washington that cares about our nation's sovereignty and the Constitution of the United States. Frankly, it just don't look like that's ever going to happen to me.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

helluva…

OK, this time, WE, USA, Secty. of State is *HELPING THEM *do it…

Can WE, USA, sign a binding Treaty with the UN that, in so many words, makes illegal for any USA citizen to own a gun? Without Congressional approval?

Since Obama has been in office, he has been trying to get UN treaties passed to his version of Gun Control… knowing he cannot do it legally through our own congress.

Now, he's trying to get another treaty through the UN, to make it illegal to talk about the Islam Religion, their laws, etc.! He KNOWs not to try such a thing through our Congress!


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

*Joe*, I'm not sure of all of the answers to your questions. However, in watching the UN for a number of years what we agree to in the treaties generally takes effect over a number of years. Unfortunately there always seem to be enough people in Congress to see that it all gets accomplished. As far as I'm concerned every treaty that we have signed with the UN has been bad for America and I do not understand why the American people put up with them. The wording is very vague and purposely so. Anyways, don't know anything that can be done. You see what's in Congress and that's the way it is. I doubt that it will change anytime soon unless the American people wake up to it all. The original charter for the United Nations is more in the nature of a constitution than a treaty. Ron Paul did an excellent long essay on this. I believe that he would abolish all ties to the UN.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

Obviously, the 2nd Amendment means exactly what it says and most everyone with half a brain knows that. We are not to be deprived of our right to defend ourselves and as far as I'm concerned the founding fathers made it about as clear as they could make it. The militia clause doesn't change anything - the people were the militia - that's what the militia was - the people. The people in the militia furnished their own guns and every able bodied man served in it. So if you read the 2nd amendment taking the definition of militia as it was used during that time it is perfectly clear and logical even to a jackass. Besides that, the militia clause is subordinate and irelevant. It could have said "the right of the people to keep and bare arms shall not be infringed" and nothing more.

One of the nation's greatest linguist did an exhaustive study on the Second Amendment and his persuasive argument removes all of the common objections. *The people* of this nation will always be allowed to own firearms so that they are able to defend themselves. If I can recall his name I'll link it.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

Sounds good…

... and ANY Treaty signed & approved with the UN or any other country CANNOT effect the 2nd amendment or FREE speech?


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

*Joe*, to my way of thinking a treaty should not be able to turn the Constitution upside down. But I know good and well that not everybody sees it that way and as you know there are an awful lot of people who say the Constitution is a living document and that it can be changed willy nilly by every generation. Not only so, but it is obvious that a lot of unconstitutional laws are passed through Congress and a lot of bureaucrats issue unconstitutional regulations.


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

From the administration that 'truely cares" the handpicked Jobs Czar Jeffery Immelt CEO of General Electric announces X-Ray division will move to China. The jobs Czar, the CEO iof the biggest company in the world that paid no taxes last year…if the President truely cared about the people of this country he would make a big deal of this and get rid of him publicly.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

CR - - Sherman was great, I'm even more of a big Patton Fan though.

For the WMD I am a pragmatist - - - Saddam had WMD and we WATCHED as he used them against the kurds during the first gulf war.

SO fact is he HAD and USED them in the past….

So if he had them and used them during the prior 10 years….do you then REALLY assume that he destroyed all of them? The US has a stockpile of Sarin and VX supposed to be gone by next year - but personally I think our military and government is secretive enough that they would never go 100% - there would always be a bunker in Utah somewhere "just in case". I don't see why one would assume Saddam had complied with the UN…Nobody in the middle east could give a crap what the UN says.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Cr1…i agree let 'em have it.


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

Sadam also still had some WMD's and they were found, but because they had a UN sticker on them saying they knew about them it wasn't considered that he had them, I never did get that.

I am guessing that one reason we knew he had them is because we facilitated him getting them to stick it to Iran in the 80's but really couldn't come out and say that.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*
"Sadam also still had some WMD's and they were found, but because they had a UN sticker on them saying they knew about them it wasn't considered that he had them, I never did get that."*

I don't GET THAT either!

If he HAD them, he HAD them… He could have used them… and probably would have if his buttons were "pushed" just right… We had no idea of when THAT would be… The whole purpose was to get them SO HE COULDN'T USE THEM! How any lame brain could say "He didn't have them because we knew he had them" has got be REALLY SICK!
Isn't that what we have been discussing?! Sounds like Clinton and Bush were telling the TRUTH! DUH?!
What a waste of time… the whole subject is moot!


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

Here's a quote I have admired for many years.

"You cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the wealthy out of freedom. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.

When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that my dear friend, is about the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it."

The late Adrian Rogers


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

... and you cannot Spend or Tax your way out of it…

... the poor, receiving it for free, cannot pay taxes… The half that used to work, don't have any income to tax! LOL

... All gone…


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

"It should be the highest ambition of every American to extend his views beyond himself, and to bear in mind that his conduct will not only affect himself, his country, and his immediate posterity; but that its influence may be co-extensive with the world, and stamp political happiness or misery on ages yet unborn."-George Washington, letter to the Legislature of Pennsylvania, 1789


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

This might get their attention.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/starbucks-ceo-says-100-businesses-withhold-campaign-donations-155827913.html


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Those [email protected][email protected]$ buying Congress is where the problem started. It would be nice if they stop buying but I doubt it.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*David Grimes*

That's a darn GOOD IDEA!

Very good idea!

They have a little clout!

More than us little guys! LOL


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## EEngineer (Jul 4, 2008)

When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross. - Sinclair Lewis (1935)

Are you people really this stupid?

Fact: there were no WMD's: we have been looking almost 10 years.

Fact: From Cheney's book, just released:

Other advisers were reluctant, Cheney says, because of "the bad intelligence we had received about Iraq's stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction" before the 2003 invasion of that country.

No matter what you say, there were no WMD's discovered, there no WMD's found, there were no WMD's! There was no reason for the war in Iraq! and Cheney himself vice president during the fiasco,. admits it!


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

@EEngineer, Don't just be insulting. Perhaps direct your torch and enlighten us.


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## EEngineer (Jul 4, 2008)

Sorry, I give you facts, all you want is non-insulting…

can't do it!


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

Now I see that the post was about the non-existent WMD's. You added to the post after or while I was posting the request.

In my mind there is no doubt that there were no WMD's in Iraq. I agree that the war was not justified. So we agree.

The mustard gas used much earlier against Iran and the Kurds was not the WMD (nuclear, biological, nerve, etc.) program that was "invented" to justify the 2nd Iraq war. Yeah, Colin Powell was given a ******************** sandwich in his UN lunch pail and had to pretend it was pate.


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## EEngineer (Jul 4, 2008)

Here's another quote from Colin Powedl while he was preparing for the UN:

Don't give me this ********************! I need something I can defend!

Sorry! You won't find this anywhere in the web. It is part of the rethuglican's attempt to rewrite history.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

EEngineer:

Pat Collins gave us facts about WMD being found by the inspectors, Tagged them as such, then, when WE FIND them, we cannot call them WMD because WE already knew it. 
I said, if we found'em whether they were tagged or not, WE FOUND'em!

If that makes any sense… you'd have to go back and check the posts…

If that is a fact…..

I think we have killed a dead horse… LOL


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## EEngineer (Jul 4, 2008)

You are joking, right?

Sorry, babe, we found nothin' where are the WMD? Pat Collins… who cares? where are the WMD? There are none!


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

I'm joking as much as you are…

You say things as fact…

Others say things as fact…

Obviously, Clinton & Bush got their facts mixed up… It happened to them… It can happen to us…

Gnite…


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Thom Hartman regularly cites the facts of Bush 43 telling his biographer he will invade Iraq when he is president. That was in 1998 or 99, long before he was elected. Thom also cites what is known about Cheney and 3 or 4 oil exs dividing up the Iraq oil fields before the invasion. I am still waiting for them to pay for the invasion with the oil revenues. While we wait, Haliburton took 17 billion out of Iraq last year while Obummer lets Boner attack Social Security and Medicare. Even my military friends are questioning the use of cruise missiles to take out jeeps with 50 cals mounted on them. Those are $100 tank missions, not $2 million missile targets! Ike warned of the Military Industrial Complex. It is milking, make that bleeding, us, US, to the very last drop ;-((


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

The fact of the matter is that nothing's going to change until they've broken this country and turned us in to a banana republic and it will have been done in only 40 years. We are going from riches to rags in only 40 years. That's what you call a helluva ride. We have to go try to run the world and stick our nose in everybody's business. It's all from pure greed and we'll end up just like the Roman Empire if we keep it up. The politicians don't even know how to run America so why in the hell does anybody think they're going to try to run the world without it turning into an absolute disaster?


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

A little about Bush and Iraq. Maybe Bush should have waited till Afganistan was done.

But getting Rid of one of histories worst dictators and his crazy sons…..Great job president Bush!!! It was long over due!! Anyone who thinks that we should not have gotten rid of Saddam Hussein is nuts!

In2003 everyone was in favor of going into Iraq….except Ron paul, dennis kuccinich and Cinthia Mckinny…..need I say more! When Democrats started to find a way to take power again they used the war against Bush….well played it worked. But reguardless getting rid of Saddam Hussein did the world a favor.


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

I do agree that Bush's determination of going after Iraq so soon after 9-11 would justify a no vote, however I believe history would have gone down a horrible path if Saddam were around today. Even the revelution that are currently in the middle east would not have occurred without a dictator like saddam being toppled


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

There are many dictators all over teh world that are just as bad as Saddam. Lots of them in Africa, but they are killing Africans, so who cares, eh? Nelson Mandela was just as bad a Saddam. He used a ring of fire on his political opposition. (tire filed with burning oil around their neck) One hell of a hero for us, eh?

Most of Congress was lied to and they know it now. I wish I hadn't still been in the R party when Bush the dumber was elected. It is very difficult to finally see those you have believed in and supported all your life are so evil and wicked they are the reason God will destroy the earth by fire. I hope a few of you go through the same difficulties I have experienced very soon!


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

Saddam Hussein has broke into the level of the worst of the worst dictators in history. He has murdered hundreds of thousands of his own citizens. We must not forgett about the mass graves that have been discovered in Iraq and the gassing of the Kurds.

Saddam is up there with Mao, Stalin, Hitler, and the Kmer Rouge


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Too bad he wasn't taken care of quick and clean like Libya, but we have to funnel billions to the defense contractors don't we?


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

Well libya isn't over with yet…..and I am sure we will be sending billions there too


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

YanktonSD:

We'd better GET something for it!

... and NOT give them a FREE LUNCH!


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Boner controls the purse strings, he won't let Obummer spend on Libya ;-))


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

I suspect those rebels in Lybia will not turn out to be friendly boy scouts. We never really got an explination to who they are.


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

Just saw an unusual Obama bumper sticker. It read: "Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

When we got home, we got out the Bible and opened it up to the scripture:

Psalm 109:8 ~ "Let his days be few and brief; and let others step forward to replace him."

I guess there really IS something in there for everybody ! lol


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

THE QUEEN'S RIDDLE 
Barack Obama met with the Queen of England.

He asked her, "Your Majesty, how do you run such an efficient
Government? Are there any tips you can give to me?" 
"Well," said the Queen, "the most important thing is to surround
Yourself with intelligent people."

Obama frowned, and then asked, "But how do I know the people around
Are really intelligent?" 
The Queen took a sip of tea. "Oh, that's easy; you just ask them to
Answer an intelligent riddle."

The Queen pushed a button on her intercom. "Please send Tony Blair in
Here, would you?"

Tony Blair walked into the room and said, "Yes, Your Majesty? 
The Queen smiled and said, "Answer me this please, Tony, your mother
And father have a child. It is not your brother and it is not your
Sister. Who is it?"

Without pausing for a moment, Tony Blair answered, "That would be me."

"Yes! Very good," said the Queen.

Obama went back home to ask Joe Biden, his vice presidential choice
The same question.

"Joe, answer this for me. Your mother and your father have a child.
It's not your brother and it's not your sister. Who is it?"

"I'm not sure," said Biden. "Let me get back to you on that one." He
Went to his advisors and asked every one, but none could give him an
Answer.

Finally, Biden ran into Sarah Palin out dining one night. Biden asked,
"Sarah, can you answer this for me? Your mother and father have a
Child and it's not your brother or your sister. Who is it?"

Sarah Palin answered right back, "Why, that's easy, Joe. It's me!"

Biden smiled, and said, "Thanks!"

Then, he went back to speak with Obama. "Say, I did some research and
I have the answer to that riddle. It's Sarah Palin!"

Obama eyeballed his vice president up and down, fuming, frowning hard
And finally shouting angrily, "No, you idiot! It's Tony Blair!"

AND THAT'S PRETTY MUCH EXACTLY WHAT'S GOING ON WITH OUR FEDERAL
GOVERNMENT IN WASHINGTON , D.C.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

*Toppa*, I'd say that you might be onto something. ;-|


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Yeah, especially with the job czar moving his (GE) research as development to China!! That joke could be funny if it weren't so tragic and true ;-((


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

Topa--I love it!


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

Great joke, Topa. lol

I believe Palin would be the last one (even of that group) to get it right, though. ;=)


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Try this one ;-))

The English language has some wonderfully anthropomorphic collective nouns for groups of animals.

There is a Pride of lions, a Murder of crows, a School of fish, an Exaltation of doves and, presumably because they look so wise, a Parliament of owls.

Now consider the baboon. The loudest, most dangerous and viciously aggressive of all primates. And what is the proper collective noun for a group of baboons - a Congress.

Sometimes the jokes just write themselves…


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

Topa you are giving congress too much credit.


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

Topa that is a major insult to baboons!


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

"It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first." - Ronald Reagan


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

A Political PLAN that will work

1. Back off and let those men who want to marry men, marry men.

2. Allow those women who want to marry women, marry women.

3. Allow those folks who want to abort their babies, abort their babies.

4. In three generations, there will be no more Liberals!

I just love it when a plan comes together !!!


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

Good jokes fellas. Keep em coming. ;-)


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

That would be a great plan if it stopped there!! But no the gays and abortionists believe that they need to persuade a certain percent of our kids to join them.


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## Knothead62 (Apr 17, 2010)

McCain isn't alone- I would have to stop and think of how many houses I have owned and/or lived in. When I was drafted in 1969 (age 22), I had to get an extra sheet of paper to list my addresses for security clearance. What gets me is how people keep voting the same people back into office. 
Status quo- Latin- "the mess that we are in."


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## Knothead62 (Apr 17, 2010)

Couldn't pass up sharing these with the forum.

A chaplain was asked, "When you pray at a joint session, who do you pray for first, the House or the Senate?" He replied, "The country."

A congressman was awakened by his wife late one night. 
"Honey, there is a thief in the house." 
"No dear, the Senate maybe but not the House."


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*Gun Control…

Disarm the innocent so the criminals will be FREE to do what they want!

Click it and get a good example of what it really is… In REAL LIFE!
Happening TODAY!
*


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

Joe, if there ever was a common sense statement uttered it would be:

*"When guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns."*


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

David Grimes:
*
"A Political PLAN that will work

1. Back off and let those men who want to marry men, marry men.

2. Allow those women who want to marry women, marry women.

3. Allow those folks who want to abort their babies, abort their babies.

4. In three generations, there will be no more Liberals!

I just love it when a plan comes together !!!" 
*

I agree with you 100+% except for one thing…. I would make the following two changes to your list:

*Given Definition of the New Union:*
A Union of two men or a Union of two women with *all *the privileges of Holy Matrimony except known as legal *Union* instead of Marriage.

==============================

*Before:*
1. Back off and let those men who want to marry men, marry men.

*After:*
1. Back off and let those men who want to marry men, *allow them to be Legally United to form a Union.*

==============================

*Before:*
2. Allow those women who want to marry women, marry women.

*After:*
2. Allow those women who want to marry women, *allow them to be Legally United to form a Union.*

==============================

By doing so, the name "marriage" would still remain a "holy" state… untarnished.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Hey David and Joe,
How's that *CONservative push for smaller government regulations* working out for with regards to marriage?


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*HorizontalMike:*
... sorry Mike, I'm not doing any special Pushing for such regulations… I know it's impossible with all of the stupid A$$ holes in Washington & the New Spoiled generation… That's just my Opinion about it… I have & will continue to Vote Against it being called Marriage… Union, fine… Not Marriage!

IMHO, they can "Unite" any fricken way they want… Just don't disgrace it by calling it Marriage! Because, it's NOT!
... ie: Who is the Husband? The Wife? Marriage is the result of a Husband & Wife… Simple… when you think about it. Yes?

I take it you prefer the New proposed - modern-day description of Marriage?


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Been living with the same woman for 24+ years, domestic partners WITHOUT marriage, so I personally do not give a rat's A$$ about marriage as defined by Religious Zealots. These religious nuts are not really worried about the word "marriage", they are fighting to PUNISH any and all who are not married under some constrained religious doctrine that THEY want to control via OUR government.

In San Antonio these religious nuts are fighting against extending health benefits even though those benefits say NOTHING about marriage:
http://www.foxsanantonio.com/newsroom/top_stories/videos/vid_7085.shtml

By golly don't let them "others" have any insurance and survivor-ship benefits! Wee religious types need to punish them for thinking outside the box!


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*"domestic partners".*.. Hey! There's a better name for it… Not Marriage… Better than Unions!

*Call it anything you want… Let them have the same legal benefits as marriage.*.. 
Just don't call it Marriage because it isn't… even according to a dictionary!

I agree and respect the name you call it… You should be able to respect what I choose to call it (and keep it).


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Joe,
Only if you can get "marriage" OUT OF GOVERNMENT. Neither the State nor the Fed should have anything to do with religion. Get government out of regulating marriage. Separation of Church and State.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Joe, the left is not interested in anything holy.

They are for the wholesale elimination of true morals and prefer relative morals instead.

Similar to false prophets, we should ignore them.


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## Viktor (Jan 15, 2009)

YanktonSD: "But no the gays and abortionists believe that they need to persuade a certain percent of our kids to join them"

I have no idea what you are talking about. I've never heard of gays rallying to ban heterosexual marriage, nor have I ever seen gays with promotional materials on my doorstep.


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## Viktor (Jan 15, 2009)

Topa and all. What is the deal with poor recycling of old jokes throughout the forum? I prefer originals (Obama and earthquake was a good one). If you still decide to flip an original anecdote about conservatives, at least pay attention to details. When substituting Bush and Chaney for Obama and Biden don't forget to also replace British prime minister with a contemporary one (hint: Tony resigned in 2007).


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## Sarit (Oct 21, 2009)

My friend came up with a great idea. We really should be eliminating the word "Marriage" from our government. The gov't should get its grubby hands out of everyone's marriage.

From a gov't standpoint, a marriage is really just an entity that conveys certain legal rights responsibilities to both parties. It provides guidelines how assets are handled upon death or termination by either party. It provides legal ground for who can make medical decisions when the other party is incapacitated.

Calling this marriage is the real problem since the term has so many other religious and cultural significance which the gov't couldn't care less about.

We should keep our separation of church and state in tact by converting everyone's "marriage" into a domestic partnership. This doesn't mean that you wouldn't be married. You'd be married if your religious and or cultural community believes you to be just as they always have. This just says that the government wouldn't be the authority to decide if you are married, hence keeping the gov't out of our marriages (which I think we can all agree is a good thing).


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

Really all the political furvor over gay marriage is the last thing in the world from a conservative value. It is because religion has hijaked the term conservative that this is even a problem. If the republican pary could learn that religious does not equal conservative they would be much better off.


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

Hey, Mike If you noticed, I said BACK OFF, then ALLOW and then ALLOW again… so I guess that means LESS REGULATION.

And hopefully a smaller government to not enforce any of these things.

Separation of church and state is just fine with me. I agree with the inherent wisdom of that, but that doesn't give either one the right to push the other over a cliff. Separation and alienation are not the same thing.

There's so little difference in the mainstream R's and D's that it is funny to me to see the little posturing and trying to line up on sides. The plank work in both of their foundations is a mixed bag of flawed and correct. I see the issues as individual items worthy of individual consideration and thought. I have never and can't imagine ever seeing any party's plank encompass my exact take on the individual issues.

So if somebody on here bashes the past few "wars", does that make them a dove ? Not at all.
If somebody believes the G shouldn't pay for abortions, does that make them pro-lifers ? No.
If somebody doesn't believe that all the rich individuals and the corporations are evil, does that make them a Republican ? No.
If somebody believes the unions were every bit as crooked as the companies, does that make them a Republican ? No.

Whan a person insists on categorizing everything either black or white… or wrong or right… or left or right, then I truly pity that fool. There's far more shades of gray… swinging of the scale of justice… and bi-dexterity than what the pigeon-holers conceive (or concede).

You see what I mean ? Never assume anything (especially from humor). If you do, you're probably wrong.


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

I am a conservative and I am a christian….(according to liberals, that means I am evil ) I really don't care if gays marry but I do care when my children go to public school 3rd and 5th grade and they are spending 5 hours a week learning about issues like gey marriage and they are put in gay marriage simulations and yes they are teaching this in almost every school across the nation thanks to the CA and MA boards of education which helps make standardized textbooks for the rest of the nation. I really don't care if gays get married but don't flaunt it in front of my children when the should be learn fundamentals!!!


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

But Yank, how will the libs take Christ out of our lives if they don't brainwash our kids?


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## Sarit (Oct 21, 2009)

Can someone tell me at what point learning about gays becomes indoctrination into a gay lifestyle?
I presume if you learn about the KKK, that doesn't make you don a white hood?
Does learning about Nazi's cause our children to turn into Neo-Nazi's?
My public school education has dealt with these dark subjects by highlighting the virtues of tolerance for all peoples. We learned how important tolerance is in preventing the next Hitler from coming to power and in preventing the injustices we have seen in the past. I am sure that the education related to gays and lesbians will be treated in the same light.

You guys are making it sound like the schools are showing animated gay porn to pre-schoolers. Obviously, you are either trying to make a dis-ingenuous argument or are plain stupid.

But, just to play devil's advocate, suppose the schools really are trying to turn everybody gay. Our public schools are falling behind nearly every industrialized nation (including some developing too). Since we aren't getting anywhere with the current curriculum, what makes you think they can change a child's sexual preference?

Whether or not gay marriage is legalized, I fully support the teaching of gay history. Yes, I said HISTORY. Its interesting how we "forget" certain words to make our arguments sound more ominous than they are.

Being a conservative christian isn't evil. Spinning facts, omitting important details, and just plain trying to lead people to believe in something that isn't true is evil (I believe that counts as a sin in Christianity too). It just appears that lots of conservative Christians engage in this activity too, and you know how correlation makes people assume causation.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

They should at least wait until the kids are in jr high or middle school to start this kind of education. Slick Willy introduced oral sex to elementary schools, but hopefully they are over that now ;-)


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*The gov't should get its grubby hands out of everyone's marriage*

That is really impossible. Marriage is a civil contract as well as cultural and/or religious. When we were married, we signed the papers before the church ceremony. We were told it doesn't matter if we go through with it or not, we were married when we signed the dotted line.


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## Clarence (Nov 23, 2009)

Remember how Tom Clancy's "Debt of Honor" ended? A clean sweep of Washington, not quite so literal, is the only hope. Where's Jack Ryan when you need him?


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## Sarit (Oct 21, 2009)

That why the proposal was to convert every current "marriage" to a domestic partnership or union or whatever you want to call it, then if new couples want one of these things, they just register for one. The tests for whether this is a legitimate partnership or just a tax minimization scheme would be the same tests used to determine whether a green card marriage was legitimate or not.

The document you signed would probably look the same except the title would be "partnership license" or whatever instead of "marriage license". You wouldn't be "married" under the law because that's not a classification that the gov't recognizes, but you would be in an exclusive legal entity. Whether you decide to go to a church to get "married" or become the next member of the blue man group is up to you. The gov't wouldn't care.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

The party of the corporatists that are collecting all the world's assets in their own accounts need this issue to keep a good share of the population from voting against their evil plan to destroy the middle class, enslave them and get the company towns reestablished with a company store supplying your every need that has prices high enough you never can get out of debt. Sound familiar to anyone? Know anyone in that situation right now?


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Topa,
You are correct in that by constantly stirring up controversy the Rs try to keep their uninformed/misinformed voters riled up and angry at the other side. However, in the coming 2012 election cycle IMO the Rs are risking R-voting burnout due to their complete obstructionist "NO" policies in Congress. Granted, Obama could have dealt with the Rs better than he has, but I believe the Rs are making an even bigger mistake with voters.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Really - the process of keeping controversy going to detract voters from the real issues is ONLY happening from the "R" side???
How about :
Rep. Andrè Carson (D-Ind.), who said at a town hall that tea-party affiliated *members of Congress *see African Americans as "second-class citizens" and would be happy to see blacks *"hanging from a tree."* 
So not the 'demonstrators' but the actual congressmen and women in the freshman class want to Lynch blacks.

Maybe some Corporate Cronyism for GE's Immelt. 
Carry water for Obama and provide a 100% positive platform for messaging with MSNBC and NBC - - and your 5Billion in revenue requires a nice fat ZERO in corporate taxes? Or the Millions in Stimulus for green jobs - yet the Koch brothers are Satan?
Or that Immelt chairs the Obama's Jobs council; but sent their medical X-ray division to China to hire 10,000 Chinese workers? (Guess he missed the part that he is supposed to help put AMERICANS to work?)

That the dozen Tea Party Republicans were Hostage Takers and Terrorists holding the economy hostage by holding up the debt ceiling - - yet the ENTIRE Democrat caucas in the Senate voted NO in 2006 to raise the debt ceiling including Obama. who explained that the need to be more indebted to China for out of control spending is a failure of leadership…..but now a minority of Republicans opposed raising the debt ceiling are hostage takers?
Wouldn't the OUTCOME of default have been the same? But the D's were "standing on Principle"

I think thou dost protest too much


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## Sarit (Oct 21, 2009)

DrDirt, 
the key word was:" *constantly* stirring up controversy". I don't see any liberals with signs claiming the tea-party is racist. To stir up controversy, you have to inform the ones who are to be stirred up, right? So why haven't I heard of this?

I agree that Immelt seems like a poor choice for a job creation commitee, unless you think that he's trying to do what FDR did in hiring Kennedy to be the head of the SEC "It takes one[a crook] to catch one". GE's probably the best in the world at evading taxes. If you really wanted to find a way to close these loopholes you'll need GE. This is one of those relationships where you know they are not on the same side, but they need this relationship in order to use each other.

So voting NO in 2006 is supposed to mean that the tea party didn't hold the US economy hostage to push their budget cutting agenda? See, you're doing it again! Ur trying to distract from the real issues by stirring up controversy.

FYI, immediacy is a critical factor in hostage taking. If you say we kidnapped your daughter and placed her in Club Med where all her desires are met is going to be different from we buried your daughter and she has a limited amount of air left. Also the purpose of hostage taking, is so that you can ransom something. So in 2006 there was much less immediacy and nothing to ransom, therefore not a hostage situation.


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## RZH (Nov 20, 2009)

*But Yank, how will the libs take Christ out of our lives if they don't brainwash our kids?*

To be safe, you can always home school. I hear Warren Jeffs has a home school program.


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## RZH (Nov 20, 2009)

*Education about things gay is a species of cultural indoctrination. We don't wast time in public schools teaching children about how the Catholics live or the Seventh Day Adventists nor do we spend energy training children about the ways of the Itlo-American, the Irish American the Jewish American communities and there is no reason to waste time and money teaching them about any other demographic. That is all political indoctrination seeking to force a cultural mindset on the children.*

I don't get it, you're not born a catholic or any other religion. Eventually you make a choice about religion.
As you say being gay isn't a choice, so a comparison of something like race relations in schools is a more accurate example.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

NO Sarit - if your position is that liberals RARELY make comments about the Tea Party being racist and seldom engage in this sniping just tells me you aren't actually paying attention. So no Ed Shultz and Rachael Maddow rarely point out what the left is up to. Just as Hannity and Rush rarely praise the dems. If you only ever listen to one side you only see and hear a one sided argument…THAT is why you "Havent heard this"

the 2006 point is hardly a distraction. HAD THE NO VOTE HELD…. *Exactly the same potential outcomes *were in play, the Social Security Checks would not go out, Medicare unpaid, the Soldiers pay in Iraq and Afganistan would be stopped. Hitting the debt ceiling is exactly that whenter in 2011 or 2006. The difference is that the Dems will tell you of their patriotic opposition to the president and stand 100% no a single dissenting view against raising the ceiling to say how we might not have the checks go out.
The situations are absolutely identical with Identical risks to the economy had the debt ceiling no been raised - - running out of money to cut checks was the potential result in both cases so your immediacy argument falls on its face. Unless you are going to state that even in 2011 Social Security checks were never in danger of being withheld and the Democratic Carnival Barkers were FOS??

I'm sure you want to tell me how the Presidential Address to the joint session of Congress to unveil the jobs plan next wednesday at 8PM was truly the ONLY POSSIBLE TIMESLOT between catching up on vacation laundry and playing golf…..But OOPS! Obama just happened to schedule his event at the exact same time as the republican presidential debates (Gotta make sure people don't hear opposing views)....What a surprising oversight!!! LOL


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Mike, there are too many one issue and '0' info voters! If there weren't the R's would never have been able to destroy the middle class and suck Slick Willy and probably Obummer into to it too ;-((


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

It is a shame, the soapbox is gone, the ballot box is corrupt.

The only thing left is the ammo box.

Stock up fellow Conservatives. The day of battle will soon be upon us.

Sharpen your skills, get plenty of provisions and be ready at moments notice.

The time is very near.


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

Dead horse flesh is gettin' deep 'round here.

D's and R's… nearly the same. Like any other group of people with power and/or influence, some will have a propensity to abuse it.

Who got us off the gold standard ? A Republican (Nixon).
Who gave us all the "great society" stuff that is an albatross (unsustainable legacy costs) around the taxpayers' necks: A democrat (LBJ) and both R's and D's since (though mostly D's).
Who signed Nafta ? A Democrat (Clinton).
Who gave away the Panama Canal ? A Democrat (Carter).
Who gave China MFN status ? A Democrat (Carter).
Who did not take it away because of Tiananmen Square ? A Republican (Bush). It happened on the exact day he was to inform Congress of his decision to renew MFN for the PRC. 
Who renewed it even after saying it would be tied to human right ? (although 60% of the public was against it)? A Democrat (Clinton).

On May 19, President Clinton announced that he would be renewing China's trading privileges in spite of its human rights record, and against the wishes of over sixty percent of Americans who are opposed to trading with the oppressive communist regime. Why is the U.S. cracking down on smaller nations for alleged human rights abuses while extending favorable treatment to one of the most oppressive governments in the world?

Most Favored Nation (MFN) status was granted to the People's Republic of China (PRC) in 1979 and has been renewed on a yearly basis ever since. MFN allows the PRC access to U.S. markets at tariff rates that average six percent. Nations without the designation face a forty-four percent tariff. Most nations have MFN with the exception of six including Vietnam, Cuba and North Korea. Clinton has until June 3 to formally notify Congress of his decision. From that point, Congress has 90 days to reverse his decision. (The Washington Post, 5-20-97).

"We will link China's trading privileges to its human rights record…"-Candidate Bill Clinton, Los Angeles World Affairs Council, 8-13-92.

We could go on and on and on… only to find that both sides have the ability to suck badly. Never all of them. Sometimes most of one side or the other, but… again… D's and R's… nearly the same.

The middle class was built on industry. Industry went away. Why did it go away ? If you blame the industries themselves, you are not thinking deep enough or correctly. The politicians did it. Both sides. Over many years.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Amen David -
Party Affiliation T-shirt:


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

*DrDirt*, are you taking orders? You might just make a small fortune with that this time around.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Someone already has it on the market at Cafepress.com


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

There really is no difference between Republicans and Democrats…....Today you are either a conservative or a liberal. I am a conservative and some republicans are conservative and a couple democrats are too. I am not a liberal which many republican lean to and most democrats are!


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## Sarit (Oct 21, 2009)

DrDirt,
Anyone can make a hypothetical and then claim they know what the outcome would be.
In reality neither you nor I can really know with any certainty.
Who is to say that if the Dems had a majority, that they would unilaterally vote NO just to kill the economy. 
Or that they would only ask for minor concessions from Reps which would lead to some Dems quickly voting yes.
Or that Reps would be very willing to give in to whatever demands Dems made at the time for their votes.
Or if the Dems didn't think they would get anything and didn't want to seem like the bad guy, maybe they would just allow a few dems to vote yes while the rest keep their moral ground.

How can you say that your hypothetical is any better than mine?
Maybe because I'm a liberal, you think I'm not good at making stuff up!


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## Sarit (Oct 21, 2009)

Regarding the stirring up controversy,
I thought maybe I was out of touch for not believing that tea party was racist so I did some searching.
Here's what i found:



























I guess the question to you is, who's really creating the controversy? They guy holding the sign or the guy reporting on it?


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

so if the the Tea party makes up 30% of the population on a bad day and 42% on a good day depending on the poll…...You just called 105-147 million American are racist because you found 3 quasi questionable signs?


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

The racist card is all the libs have, they can't talk policy because their ideology always fails.

Obama will not run on his record but will make personal attacks against "racist" conservatives.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

The simple matter is that *socialism simply will not work nor does fiat currency. They both eventually end in failure wherever they are tried. This is simply a matter of historical record*.


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## RZH (Nov 20, 2009)

Cr1 wrote on another post:

*People who hate blindly, are racist, bigoted or violent are not representative of anything at all on the right That is just a leftist lie.*

And these posts contain…
Let's see…....
Hate - check
Racist - check
Bigoted - check
Violent - check
Plus…
Selfish - check
Acquistative - check
Bloody Minded - check

Leftist lie, I don't think so.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

At the turn of the 20th century, a law against lynching blacks could not get through Congress. I seriously doubt if Kennedy/Johnson Voter Rights and Civil rights could get past Congress today. The right wing extremists are working feverishly to keep minorities away from the polls by a multitude of tactics; ie, requiring driver's licenses, long lines with only a few voting machines, stationing cops a the door in predominantly minority precincts….................... it goes on endlessly.


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## RZH (Nov 20, 2009)

Oh…one more

weapons oriented - check


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*Let's STOP all this BS…!!*

I think we all agree that Congress is broken.

The *ONLY* solution is to *LOOK* at what has been happening… and, come *Election* time, *VOTE* for ALL the people that will *POSTIVELY* *fix the Congress and Repair the Congress *so changes are made to:

*1. *Enable Wanna Be businessmen to go into business and STAY in business without being required to report to the Government every time the go to the Bathroom!

... * see the list I've posted before… I hate repeating myself…*

..*. AND be done with it!*

*Stimulate our economy by stimulating businesses to WANT TO BE IN BUSINESS.*

*Then & ONLY THEN, will they hire people which will FIX our economy and increase a real Tax base, etc.*

When people NEED to spend their earnings/ income on Utilities, Housing, Travel(Gasoline/Fuel), Food, Clothing, with very little left over for a little entertainment, they WILL NOT be able to PAY ANY MORE TAXES than they're already paying! (which is what Obama, et al wants to do!)... AND the economy will NOT get any better! (We KNOW that from History… it's a fact!)


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

I'm a white American born male. I AM a minority. So who the hell "minorities"are you talking about ? How many friggin minorities are there ? Show me a picture of somebody "working feverishly".


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Congress is very representative of the low information idiots that elect them ;-((


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## RZH (Nov 20, 2009)

*The Federal Reserve reported Thursday that nonfinancial companies had socked away $1.84 trillion in cash and other liquid assets as of the end of March, up 26% from a year earlier and the largest-ever increase in records going back to 1952. Cash made up about 7% of all company assets, including factories and financial investments, the highest level since 1963.* - Wall Street Journal

Joe you have a point, however, I don't think it's that simple. Our economy has more than a supply-side problem.
We have been living in an economy of consumption (70% of the economy) that has been financed with borrowed money (housing crash). There has been a fundamental shift in our economic make up. The middle class is shrinking and the income spread is widening between the rich and everyone else. Incomes have been declining for a long time now, except again for the rich. People have less money because they are making less and can't borrow more to spend. 
We've been living with the Bush Tax cuts for 10 years now and Obama has not raised taxes on anyone up to this point, the results don't support your position.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*
Here is something else we NEED!

*
*
"Congress is very representative of the low information idiots that elect them."
*

That is why we should be speaking out to spread the word what is REALLY HAPPENING… and what needs to be done to fix it!


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Even Ben Bernanke has said the R program is killing any chance of recovery and he is a R! The Tea Party Downgrade of Treasuries is what it is ;-(( Bernanke statement about Rs reminds me of Progressive magazine, which normally attacks Rs, identifying Sen. Patty Murray, D WA, as the seconded most dumbest person in teh US Senate, barely able to follow the proceedings. I remember her saying on TV she was going to make a law…....................... Too bad it was a financial issue. Sorry Patty, yoiu are in the wrong house of Congress ;-)) I don't think you will make a law, maybe introduce legislation. This is what is wrong with America, people in Congress that can't even run their own lives in a responsible manner.


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## RZH (Nov 20, 2009)

*I'm a white American born male. I AM a minority.*

Not yet, give it another 10 -20 years.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Sarit - Here was a protest closer to home on the LEFT including the laRouche folks Last march - Note the Left is all peace and love right??? Try to find an Obama hitler sign at a Tea Party Rally….

I would like to think that the morons below do NOT represent the majority in SanFrancisco - but every day I am less confident of that.

This kind of crap goes on with both sides of the fence - that you are not able to see that both parties are corrupt bastards and the world is fortunately/unfortunately two sides of the same coin ensures that the same idiots like Pelosi that "Bring home the bacon" continue to be elected. Everyone thinks the programs that their senator/rep have gotten for them are *Investments*, but all other states goodies are all pork.
We need to reform the vote buying Santa Claus political machine


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## Lissajous (Jul 19, 2011)

*Try to find an Obama hitler sign at a Tea Party Rally…*

You must be kidding.

Just do a Google image search on "tea party rally hitler" and you will find hundreds of examples.


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

"At the turn of the 20th century, a law against lynching blacks could not get through Congress. I seriously doubt if Kennedy/Johnson Voter Rights and Civil rights could get past Congress today."

Topa so you are saying it was perfectly legal to lynch a black man?

What is it with the "lets create a law, never mind enforcing one we already have" (ie murder) mentality.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

"Try to find an Obama hitler sign at a Tea Party Rally…."

Like this?
http://obamafoodorama.blogspot.com/2009/09/totalitarian-tea-and-acrimony-obama.html

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_2b_SPCr78uQ/Sq2WxMdmu-I/AAAAAAAALyA/3BsSt2tCwBI/s1600-h/tea+party+hitler.jpg

http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2009/08/07/55042/pelosi-swastikas/

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/07/13/iowa-tea-party-billboard-compares-obama-hitler/


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Truly an insult to Hitler.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

At the turn of the 20th century it was. Southern law enforcement did nothing about it and Congress couldn't get a law passed so the feds could.

More laws is the typical was politicians and law enforcement deals with everything. They need the issues to keep their bases stirred up and voting so they do not enforce laws on teh books, just vote for more to show they are working on teh issue. Gun control is a perfect example. If current laws were to be enforced, the problems would be gone.


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

Topa

I am glad you clarified, your previous post that I replied to seemed to be for the purpose of iliciting an emotional response by giving partial truth.

Occasionally our legislators do something right be not voting for a bill that is just plain stupid. We probably have millions of laws on the books, so many infact that the head of the treasury "didn't know about one particular tax law" and broke it.

When bills are written so much unrelated crap is shoved in as bribes to get votes, that should not be allowed. These rider bribes are no different what people think of as a real bribe.

Our founding fathers made the legislative branch a place where bad bills went to die and they by in large succeded. When others complain that congress gets nothing done, I think that is a blessing. There should be fighting wrangling, etc so that anything they do pass truely deserves to be passed.


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## SCR0LL3R (May 28, 2010)

RockyTopScott said:

"Joe, the left is not interested in anything holy.

They are for the wholesale elimination of true morals and prefer relative morals instead.

Similar to false prophets, we should ignore them." 
...

"Truly an insult to Hitler."

Nothing like spreading some good ol' fashioned Christian hate.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*
*Here is an example of How Obama participates in reducing spending!*

*









*That is SO "UNCALLED FOR", it is really SICKENING!

I wonder what Cloud that SOB is living on!
... he's sure living anywhere on Earth!
*
The lowest raise was 17%! When was the last time you got a 17% raise!
I am SO SICK of this ^%**(&)(* socalled President!

An 83% and 86% raise?! I wonder how many times they have to kiss his ….... for that?!


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## Viktor (Jan 15, 2009)

Joe, the data you posted is intentionally misleading. The salary increases for 19 of the 21 employees listed resulted from promotions. *Average pay for White House staff actually declined*.
At the top of the chart is Matthew Vogel. Vogel served as the *associate director of communications for economics in 2010*. He was promoted to *special assistant to the president for economic policy in 2011*, with his annual salary increasing from $71,400 to $130,500. Vogel is now receiving *the same salary* as Peter P. Swire, who held that job in 2010. 
Kevin Lewis, who saw his salary rise from $42,000 to $78,000 (86% hike) was press assistant. He is now director of African-American media at a *slightly lower salary than his predecessor*. 
Same with other people listed.

This is the second time I see you post/disseminate bogus information. The first one was http://lumberjocks.com/topics/29513. Skip The National Enquirer and always go straight to the source.


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

Why is there a director of African-American media to begin with?


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## Viktor (Jan 15, 2009)

"Why is there a director of African-American media to begin with?" 
I don't know. And you can question that, but this is a separate issue. 
I was simply challenging Joe's post by informing that White House staff payroll has declined over last year.
LJ is becoming another online sewer for political bickering, which is sad.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

What is really sad is this country going down the sewer because too few give a damn ;-(( Woodworking hobby activities are really not very important in the big picture. Over half the US population being reduced to subsistence level standard of living in the last 30 years is a big deal and more are following. Woodworking doesn't matter to them any more. They can't afford the tools and materials or the handmade items. We have at least a 20% unemployment rate. 1/3 of those with jobs are worried about being losing their jobs. That is 70 million who are afraid to spend. Who did it, greedy corpo pigs who bought politicians.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Viktor -
These are PROMOTIONS - because Obama official "FROZE" federal pay…however nothing prevented "Promotions" from going through to the next pay grade -
So when you are already DIRECOR OF TRAVEL and are still DIRECTOR OF TRAVEL…. this was all a ruse to push through raised for the cabinet.

Notice the SMALLEST raise in the group was 20 grand a year!

YES if we search google we can find examples of many things - 
My reason for posting toward Sarit was based on his following statement:

the key word was:" constantly stirring up controversy". *I don't see any liberals with signs claiming the tea-party is racist.* To stir up controversy, you have to inform the ones who are to be stirred up, right? So why haven't I heard of this?

His position is that the Democrats and other folks on the left* RARELY *stir up any controversy…..That is complete CRAP! Talk about Balance??

MSNBC CONCEPTS OF FAIR AND BALANCED COVERAGE


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

Topa

I dont think its that they can't afford the tools or materials I think its mostly that they don't care about it. The average american house is 1000 sqft larger than it was in the 70's. I own a 1600 sqft house that ws build in the 70's but you know what, my county government made it illegal to build a house under 1650 sqft, all they want are apparently McMansions. Most people think nothing of a $400 I-Phone or a $1k set of rims for their car. We have become an disposable, instantgradification society. Many of my coworkers think I am wasting my time remodling my house myself instead of hiring someone to do it for me.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Hitler's crew (Nazis) and Obama's crew (Muslims) both want the Jews eliminated, that is real hate Keith.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Guess I'm in a mansion ;-) just barely, but I'm above the qualification level.

Where do you think the 20% who are unemployed get money to live on, much less buy table saws and mahogany?


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

DrDirt some people refuse to see it. Ive said it before and I will say it again too many people treat their politicians like their favorite football team "yay us, boo them" no matter what.

How many people called George Bush a monkey? TO be fair he did resemble a monkey somewhat. But to be fair on the otherhand Barak Obama and George Bush share a pretty fair resemblence.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

You are so correct Pat -
Could you just imagine if a conservative film maker made a film and released it about Assasinating the sitting president?

No problem for the democrats….Released Death of a president in 2006 about the assasination of Bush - used funeral footage from Reagan and Cheney's Eulogy from Reagans Funeral.
All in the middle of Bush's second term….But since that was about the* other team *nobody on the left sees anything distasteful. 
At least in the Global release - Japan refused to permit it to be screened.

If I think the stimulus Failed and was a bad Idea to begin with, I am branded a Klansman out to Lynch the Congressional black caucas.

Release a move assasinating the sitting president….crickets chirping on the left









The film won a total of 6 awards including; the International Critics Prize (FIPRESCI) from the 2006 Toronto Film Festival,[22] the International Emmy Award for the TV Movie/Mini-Series category in the (UK), the RTS Television Award in the Digital Channel Programme category from the Royal Television Society, the RTBF TV Prize for Best Picture Award from the Brussels European Film Festival for director Gabriel Range, the Banff Rockie Award from the Banff Television Festival for the film, and one for director Gabriel Range. The film also received a nomination for Best Visual Effects from the British Academy TV Awards in 2007.[23


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

*"Congress is very representative of the low information idiots that elect them ;-(("*

...and the majority of Congress is what ?


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*Viktor,*

OK, maybe some were from "Promotions"...
Still… I guess the person that HAD the job is now on the Unemployed roster… or early retirement… or some "made-up" reason for them to do what they want and NOT try to save money…

"Saving Money" = "An Increase in Taxes"

Democrats, for the most part, Obama, especially, do not know the meaning of "Saving Money"!

I wish we had good ole fashioned Patriots in office that really wanted to do some GOOD for their Country instead of Lining Their Pockets with as much money as possible… before the retire on their FAT pension.

Harry Truman was the last example of such a person that I can remember… 
(...yes, and my memory is fading… sorry, if I missed a better one)

It seems like EVERY person in the Congress today really doesn't give a sheet about how much they spend traveling back home… the cost of their Helper Staff… the cost of Remodeling their office, etc. etc.!
None of them could be called Frugal!

It's a damn shame…

*It was mentioned *that it was a shame we're *talking about the Sewage Problem…*
Well, *when our country is going down the Sewer*, *can we talk about anything else?!* (sorry to say)

I yield the rest of my time… (BS)...


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*...and the majority of Congress is what ?* Criminal and incompetents, including one very experienced car thief.

The Ds are the spenders? The reason I got out of the Rs is because of the over whelming debt Reagan, Bush 41 and Bush the dumbest ran up. I told my neighbor I never thought the Ds would be more financially conservative than the Rs. It never made any sense why they preach about the tax and spend Ds when they were doing the spending running up the debt. After I read about Jude Wanniski with his 2 Santa Clauses, it finally made sense. It is really too bad they are willing to sacrifice the whole country and the financial security of 200 million Americans to promote their greedy, wicked agenda. BTW, I have noticed those who talk in generalities without presenting any facts are generally low or no info BSers ;-((


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

But now Topa - in under 3 years - Barack has increased the debt by the amount Bush W did in 8 years

Joe - though he predates me I though through Ike's term we were still on the right track - Kennedy started moving towards more liberal tenets - but the LBJ's great society took us down the path to ruin.
All the programs had good intentions….and as they say… the road to hell is paved with them.

Look at Carter founding the Dept of Energy - One mission - solve our dependence on oil. Great Idea - and for 30 years we have appliance standards (the yellow energy tag), the banning of light bulbs, and tax credits for installing new windows.
Funny thing is our electricity has very very little to do with foreign oil…only 1.1% is foreign oil.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*DrDirt:*

I'm referring to Truman NOT for his political actions in office, etc….
But, what he did as a Human Being and his personal political views…

*Like:*

*1. * Shortly after he was out of the White House, he was invited to speak and collect a handsome fee.
He turned it down because he felt they were not interested in what he would say… BUT, only in what a Past President had to say… Being the president of the USA was serving my Country… I should not get paid for that.

*2. * While he was in office, he paid for his own Postage, Travel, and Food.

*3.* I think he also refused his huge (in that day) pension and reduced it to $1.00 per month (or some very small amount).

*4.* He was a true Patriot that really CARED for his Country… and proved it by his actions.

I don't know of any other president that did those things…

It shows how far we have come since then…

EVERYONE is out to milk the Government for EVERYTHING they can because THEY are SOMEBODY! 
(and want to prove it every second of every day!)

*Just a few examples:*

*1. * As soon as Obama was sworn in, one of the things they did was take his Family & close friends out to dinner… Lobsters for everyone that wanted one… The cost was several Hundreds of thousands of dollars… on His Tab!

*2. * Pelosi could never be happy using commercial airlines to visit her California home each weekend… She had to have the largest plane that could make the trip NONSTOP just for Her and a few friends! Thousands of dollars up in smoke every week!

*3.* Congressmen being forced out of office for using their Mail Postage accounts for their personal business.

*4. * Obama's favorite "saying" after being asked why he spends so much on his government paid vacations, etc.
*"I am the President of the United States of America!" *... with a broad smile on his face!

... and it goes on & ON…

... Nothing but unmitigated pure WASTEFUL SPENDING of OUR Money!
... And they have the guts to say "We are here to Hep you!"...

Why would anyone spend MILLIONS of $$$ for an government OFFICE?!

*TO GET ON THE GRAVY TRAIN FOR LIFE!*

We are really SICK… we have gone down and are continuing to go down more & more…

*We NEED a lot more true Patriots like Harry Truman… *

*Ones that really want to Help the Country instead of MILK it DRY!*


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

With the mess Bush, the dumber, left; ie, total chaos in the economy and million of people no longer paying into the system because of the 50,000 factories that closed during the previous 8 years, Obummer had very little chance to instantly fix it. I have a hard time believing that mess didn't blow up on the Rs a few months before it was supposed to. If it had happened 4 month later, the right wing extremists could blame it totally on Obummer and the low info idiots in this country would have bought it.

Actually, there was no pension before Truman. He had to borrow money to move out of the White House. Congress decided to grant a presidential pension. I am not sure whether Truman took it or not.

Nixon was the first, as far as i know, to commit treason to win an election to the White House. He told the Vietnamese to hold out for a few more months. He would give them a better deal than Johnson. That must have been Nixon's secret plan to end the war, eh? Johnson knew this but would not expose it because the American people were not ready to have a candidate for a major office committing treason.

Reagan was the first, as far as I know, to put the White House on the auction block. He went to Japan to collect a million dollars for making a speech about 6 weeks after he left office.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

He's not smart enough to do it alone ;-)) But eliminating the budget surpluses, starting 2 wars off budget and continuing the antilabor/proChina practices of his ol man, Clinton and Reagan sure didn't do us any good. You really couldn't expect anything better from a spoled brat born with a silver spoon in his mouth who was able to freely commit a felony while in the military because his ol man was head of the CIA.

If what happened in the last 30 years would have happened in 5 or 10 there would have been a revolution. There are too many voters who do not remember what America was like preReganomics.

Until more of the American people are not willing to admit their favorite party is just as bad or worse than the other, nothing will change. difficult to realize how disgusting teh people yoiu have believed in all your life are nothing but criminals, leeches and scumbags. Try it, I have been through it. You will survive. The defensive bias on this thread is really quite disgusting. That is what is wrong with America today.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

I found this article very well written…
*
When will Obama crack in public?

*


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Joe I think we are on the same position - I just thought that we had decent leadership through Eisenhower..e.g. Presidential patirotism and limitations on government were pretty solid until th early 60's…

You mentioned being good though truman, I just though we had continued a pretty good run from 53-61 under Ike before things really hit the skids.

The kids born in the 60's had parents who were yougsters during WWII and Korea. Those parents worked to insulate their kids from the hardships and sacrifices they made as kids - where we had Gas and Food Rationing stamps until 1948. This is laid out pretty well in the film Generation Zero.

I'm a little biased as I live 20 minutes from the Eisenhower Presidential Library in Abilene.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Poor ol Jimmy inherited the inflation and economic disaster caused by Johnson's and Nixon's war, borrowing, inflation and price and wage freezes. Everyone said back then it was increasing wages causing inflation when it is really inflation that causes the demands for wages. Now, we have the rock solid proof; 30 years of flat wages yet prices doubled.

Reagan with his "I know a guy" program started the extreme divisiveness in political discourse. It still goes on today; same old BS, causing everyone to say it is welfare by those who are too lazy to work that is causing the deficits. The truth of the matter is the military/industrial drain on the treasury that ran the deficit up from 1 to 12 trillion in 16 years.

Joe, Well written?


> ?


?


> ?


It is obvious some are so set in their ways they will never wake up to the fact that both Ds & Rs are crooked, evil and slaves to their corporate benefactors.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Topa, get some serious help sir. Your anger is not healthy.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

This country has gone so far extremist to the right. Ike would be a D today. So would Nixon! ;-(( Neither of them worked to destroy the middle class.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I'm not angry, just totally disgusted that the country I grew up and raised my family in is probably gone forever. There are so many fools that have been totally blinded by their own ignorance, the few who see what is going on here are totally overwhelmed by the undaunting task of rebuilding it. Like I said before, if what Reaganomics has done to America had happened in 5 years instead of 30, the people would have put a stop to it. The corporate take over by the greedy few is nearly complete. If we get a R to appoint 2 or 3 Supreme Court justices in the next election, we will be a 3rd world country living on subsistence level wages in my lifetime. That may happen without them ;-((


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

If we get a few judicial appointments from libs we will be living under Shariah law soon too.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

If you get many more corporate attys in there, you won't be living.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

I would rather be dead then living under Muslim rule.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Rocky,
Where do you live? Just wondering how safe you are… Surrounded by Muslims? malcontents?...


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

Topa, Explain how / why this could occur within the boundaries of your stated beliefs and oft repeated oft repeated theories of who is to blame.

Obama yields on smog rule in face of GOP demands- AP
In a dramatic reversal, President Barack Obama on Friday scrubbed a clean-air regulation that aimed to reduce health-threatening smog, yielding to bitterly protesting businesses and congressional Republicans who complained the rule would kill jobs in America's ailing economy.

BTW, I have noticed those who repeat themselves over and over stop being persuasive on about the 3rd time. After that, it's obvious the person is trying to make himself believe his own BS. When a person believes their own BS, the break with reality creates what I call a DOO Loop, which is the sad case of being stuck in perpetual CICO (Crap In Crap Out) mode and not even aware of it… making them even more believable (but no less wrong). Now THAT is a BSer ;-)


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Most of what I say is verifiable fact and historical record. I do not pay much attention the to propaganda media or talking points of the cheer leaders trying to rally their bases. I used to be a R party officer. I always thought the Ds were a bit off their rocker. Bush, the dumbest, opened my eyes and I realized the Rs were as bad and probably worse than the Ds. I'm no genius, so if I can figure it out, anyone who really gives a damn about this country and what we leave for future generations to deal with can too.

The problem I found with most people I talked to locally is time. They are so busy working, their spouse is working and trying to take care of kids, they don't have any time left. That is precisely what the Corporatists need to continue to push the middle class down to subsistence level.

As far as Obummer caving in on clean air, why not? He has caved in on every other thing the Rs wanted. In the Tea Party Downgrade and debt limit negotiations, Boner said he got 98% of what he wanted. The Super Committee that is supposed to make the cuts by Nov as appointed by leaders of Congress was a set up with the middle class loosing more and the military industrial corporate complex giving nothing. Harry Ried's appointments guaranteed that out come. Just like Obummer's bipartisan committee on the debt. When you have a guy like Alan Simpson from WY saying saying we need to give more and SS and medicare are the problems it is pure BS. Alan Simpson is the problem, he is a career politician who has never produced anything of value in his life. He is a drain on the system who has been nothing but a gov't employee and will get a multimillion dollar retirement for causing us, US, nothing but more grief.

Fair trade policies will create American jobs, not caving in on clean air policies. Do we want to go back to being a cesspool like China has become with turds floating down our rivers?


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Mike, i am in America..we are ALL surrounded. Don't kid yourself, they are everywhere.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

I don't see any sign whatsoever that the people in this country are ever going to change. So long as we keep putting the same old same olds back in office we are going to move closer and closer to a financial collapse and becoming a banana republic. The R's and the D's have to go. We have to quit trying to run the world and start trying to save our own nation before it is too late. If we loose the middle class we are in serious trouble because the middle class are the back bone of this nation. The middle class is hanging on by their finger nails because we have a bunch of greedy politicians who are controlled by the biggest corporations and the top 1% of wealth holders who control and unheard of percentage of all the property in America. Right now their percentage of property ownership is increasing at an exorbitant rate while that of the middle class and poor is decreasing. America used to have a strong and vibrant middle class and it was the backbone of this nation. We use to have industries spread all over that grew things, minded things, manufactured things - that's how wealth is created. We are becoming a service economy - well, guess what, we can't make a living by doing each other's dirty laundry and cutting each other's grass. We need to get rid of the people who are responsible for shipping our industry overseas, closing down our minds, and causing us to not even being able to grow enough food anymore to feed ourselve's. We were once known as the bread basket of the world. It should be obvious to anybody that we desperately need some new thinking in this country and it ain't going to happen if we don't throw everyone out of office and start over.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Helluvawreck:
I couldn't agree with you more.
I don't believe the people really understand (or want to) the situations and the cure. Manufacturing is the tried and true way that a country excels, not service industries.
Our potential workforce is made up of a majority of wannabe "executives, managers, legal types etc" and not educated to get their "hands dirty" and become part of the engine that should drive this country. Executives and managers have sent our manufacturing overseas, the majority of college students graduate with non productive degrees, we need many more trade school graduates, not non productive air heads.
There is a huge disparaging amount of people who think that getting their hands dirty and not "managing" something is a huge insult to their integrity, this attitude HAS to change.
The first step is to eject all the illegal aliens and free up the jobs that they illegally hold. That would immediately open up millions of jobs for citizens, and they should take those jobs even if they think they are below their station. That's where we start.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Roger said:

The first step is to eject all the illegal aliens and free up the jobs that they illegally hold.

AMEN!


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## RZH (Nov 20, 2009)

Unfortunately we need to adapt to change. We can't go back to the way it used to be. We are pumping way too many high school dropouts. Low skilled jobs that pay a living wage have left the country for places where people are paid pennies a day. The responsibility for the future is on us, looking to blame others (Muslims, illegal aliens, politics) for our problems and challenges are pathetic. 
It's not fair to cast everyone with the same brush with regard unemployment. A lot of these unemployed are good hard-working citizens. The vast majority want to work and don't want handouts. In my circle of friends and family, I have seen it firsthand and it can be devastating.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Mike, What I mean is living at subsistence level is not living, it is existing.

Fair Trade, not free trade will fix the unemployment situation along with tax reform that does not reward corps for moving out of the US and rewards management for managing for bonuses instead of for the good of the company and shareholder benefit. That all changed under the massive reforms during the Reagan administration when the greedy decided the safe guards preventing another Great Depression and kept the economy relatively stable from 1935 to 1980 were a hindrance to wealth accumulation at the top. Prior to that there was a banking panic about every 14 years.

We have survived all the other great influxes of cheaper labor. We imported Chinese to build the railroads and under cut the Irish. We will survive the current influx if we can get fair trade instead of one way free trade.


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

Wow topa--that is a bunch of BS!


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

Topa, Ike was a D before he ran, Nixon would be a D but Truman and Kennedy would be R's


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

You might want take a look at the facts of history and basic principles economics.


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

I teach history at a university!


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Typical lib revisionist history.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

RTZ:
I agree the responsibility of the future is on us *as is the past*.
Blaming others? No. Just emphasizing the fact that if we cannot enforce our own Laws, then until we do, there is a 5th column out there draining our country. Illegal aliens take jobs (with US companies who flaunt the law), send money "home" (not all spent here), pay no taxes or SS, but receive free medical and services, education for children etc., etc., etc. This burden hurts our country badly, but nobody has the inclination to enforce the law, why? One answer could be that a huge influx of certain nationals can influence the vote and polices of elected officials, even though they cannot vote they influence election results, and the politicians know it.
Legal aliens on the other hand, pay all US taxes and SS, but are not entitled to all the benefits. If we need aliens then it is to our advantage that they are LEGAL because they bring skills and don't have all citizen benefits.

High schools, Colleges and Universities are pumping out graduates with irrelevant and useless subjects/degrees which are not required at this time to get back into manufacturing. Grads in the sports field, psychology and a host of other subjects that we can't use to get our manufacturing back are the main talents our grads have to offer. We also produce WAAYYYY too many lawyers, who, after taking a 30 month course come into the workplace and litigate their way to a comfortable living without giving a damn if their deeds destroy and ruin people. I believe in justice, but not contrived justice for personal gain. In Texas there is one lawyer for every 29 people, and each one is chasing around inventing business.

We do have a long hard way to go to even start putting the country on it's feet again, so why not let's start enforcing the law? It's there to be used, it WILL make a difference and be very cost effective.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

You should know the facts, I would hope. I won't go into my reaons for not wanting to hire college grads. ;-))


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## RZH (Nov 20, 2009)

Rex,
I read your comments and I see a lot opinion, but no proof or fact.

According to the State Bar of Texas there are currently 83,596 active lawyers registered with the State Bar as of 11/06/2009. This number does not include inactive or suspended members. According to the 2008 US Census there are 24,326,974 residents in the State of Texas. Based on these statics there is 1 active lawyer for every *291* residents of Texas.
It should be noted that the number of law school graduates in any given State may far exceed the number of practicing lawyers in that State. Many law school attendees have no intention of practicing law but instead seek a law degree with the intention of entering into other fields. Sports agents, scholars, law enforcement officials and even individuals that intend to work in human resource management may attend law school in preparation for their careers.

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_lawyers_in_texas#ixzz1Wuzc9xFi


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## RZH (Nov 20, 2009)

Ditto on taxes:

http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/taxes/2008-04-10-immigrantstaxes_N.htm


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

We should not burden our present or future with a large government, taxes and debts. That simple. Any society that has more than a 40% total tax fails. Topa, you really have no idea what a fiscal conservative is.


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

Art, theatre, social work, psychology, sociology, literature are all useless degrees! Even history and political science are useless as a degree, but people need to know history. Most of history is being rewritten by liberals… For example Reagan was a moderate!! lol


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

I love that illegals pay taxes, but they should not qualify for refunds!


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Yankton,

Ditto
Ditto
Ditto


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

RHZ:
Yep, that's my opinion, not some justification from "quasi facts" that can justify or deny any things one way or another to satisfy and audience.
We all have our own opinions, that's normal, and mine are from my own perspective and experiences. Yes I have a Masters Degree, yes I have taught students at college and University levels, yes I was a LEGAL alien, yes I am a US citizen, yes I see a decline in the workplace, yes I see graduates pursuing "useless" degrees in this economy.
Worse still, I have witnessed while becoming older and seasoned, an incredible number of "kids" hired into the workforce who have no experience, no knowledge and no idea what it takes to do the job or manage. People of my generation were thoroughly schooled and grounded in the business application they were in, they got to know what would or would not work. Today most of these "new" workers, managers and executives only work on theories that defy the laws of mathematics, physics and time, and rely on cool fantasy's to astound their audience. I am retired now and very pleased I am out of the idiotic workplace. I saw so many bad decisions made, so many idiotic methods introduced and the workplace becoming a circus. I predicted years ago that NO COUNTRY could survive exporting manufacturing and that pluses and minuses actually do mean something in mathematics/Finance, the net result was a one way losing streak.
Older professionals who voiced their concerns were ignored and deemed to be senile - what did they know?, just years of practical experience that was not COOL in today's world.
They say we have 20 million plus illegal immigrant leeches in our country taking work, services and living off the fat of the land. It's ILLEGAL, so put a stop to it and eliminate 20 million plus "entitlement users", and let's see if that helps make a dent in our fiscal problems. It's not an opinion, it's the LAW


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*Topa, you really have no idea what a fiscal conservative is.* Yeah, I do. I am. The US was preReagan.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Yeah Topa, Jimmy Carter was a fiscal conservative.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

He didn't run up sevreal trillion in debt like those clowns that followed him.


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

Topa …..think % of gdp. We were in an enormious financial crisis in the late 60's and 70's. For you not to recognize that is crazy. Even in the late 50's we went through a crisis when we were no longer rebuilding Europe, as result Kennedy swept into office on a platform of strong national defense and drastically cutting taxes….hmmmm sound familiar? Johnson passed many of the liberal positions of Kennedy and those programs are what has crushed our country because they are unsustainable.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

That inflaton caused by the war borrowing of the late 60s and early 70s had nearly run its cycle by 1980. Reagan didn't have to declare war on the middle class to fix it.

What banking crisis was there between 1935 when the laws to prevent them were passed and 1987 when the S&Ls melted down?


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

*What banking crisis was there between 1935 when the laws to prevent them were passed and 1987 when the S&Ls melted down?*

The de-standardization of the dollar and the fractional reserve banking system.

Debate over full-reserve banking

During the Great Depression, Chicago economists suggested monetary reforms, including a call to end the fractional-reserve banking in two 1933 memorandum that came to be known as the "Chicago plan". After an apparent recovery in the mid-1930s, America was again in recession and in 1939 economists circulated a draft proposal titled A Program for Monetary Reform calling once more for an end to fractional-reserve banking.

Mainstream economists seldom discuss the merits of full-reserve banking. Academics have suggested that the costs and inconvenience of a full-reserve banking system would outweigh any benefits. However, monetarist and Nobel Prize winning economist, Milton Friedman once supported a 100% reserve requirement for checking accounts. And, well known for his advocacy of simple reforms, economist Laurence Kotlikoff has also called for an end to fractional-reserve banking. Austrian economists, such as Murray N. Rothbard and Jörg Guido Hülsmann generally support full-reserve banking and hold the view that fractional-reserve banking is "fraudulent and inflationary". Following the recent financial crisis, some economists have suggested that full reserve banking should be again considered as a serious option.

Most economists believe that the costs and inconvenience of a full-reserve banking system would outweigh any benefits. Since banks would not receive profits from lending out deposits, depositors would have to pay banks for keeping their money safe and providing checking and other banking services. Such a system would be difficult to implement and would likely be rejected by the public. Additionally, 100% reserve banking would prevent banks from lending funds deposited into demand accounts. This would displace lending activity into unregulated institutions, potentially destabilizing the financial system. Unregulated institutions include high-yield debt issuers and the businesses themselves (from retained earnings or from issuing additional shares of stock).

The case for full reserve

According to some heterodox Austrian School economists, full-reserve banking would eliminate (or at least greatly reduce) the financial risks associated with bank runs, as the bank would have all the money in reserve needed to pay depositors, regardless whether depositors actually claimed their money.
According to proponents, full reserve banking would also eliminate the need for a lender of last resort, such as a central bank, which is normally needed to support the banking system in times of systemic risk or financial contagion, as these financial risks would not exist in a full-reserve banking environment. This requires that the resources available to the banks issuing credit money and demand deposits would be sufficient to convert all currency at once if so required. It was a central component in Social Credit proposals.
Were the United States to adopt full-reserve, all currency would be created by the federal government, and as a result all seigniorage revenue would also accrue to the federal government. This is in contrast to the current US system, where a large proportion of the currency supply is in the form of demand deposits created by private banks. When the Federal Reserve creates currency and uses it to buy treasury bills, it collects seigniorage revenue in the form of interest payments which it then returns to the United States (for example, in 2002 the United States earned $24.495 billion in this manner). When a private bank creates currency, the government cannot collect any seigniorage from it. Since the Federal Reserve has a target for the size of the currency stock, any currency created by private banks is currency that is not created by the Fed and thus constitutes lost seigniorage. Some consider this an illegitimate "privatization" of what should be a public good, with these profits (i.e. taxes) being retained by the government to finance essential social services and capital works.
Because fractional-reserve banking necessarily increases the money supply, which arguably causes monetary inflation, a few economists (most from the Austrian School) consider this aspect of fractional-reserve banking to have deleterious and destabilizing effects on the economy over time. It is argued by these economists that, in contrast to fractional-reserve banking, full-reserve banking guarantees a stable money supply, which ensures that the means of exchange is not debased over time. This improves the efficiency of the price mechanism, promotes saving and the deferral of consumption, provides much greater confidence in the financial system and in the integrity of all commercial transactions and therefore encourages sustainable, non-speculative, productive investment


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

If they would have let Roosevelt finish his work and not pull the rug out from under his jobs programs in 1938, the economy would not have reverted to a recession. That hardly constitutes a banking crisis of the magnitude experience prior to the reforms. There were none in the 40s, 50s, 60s, or 70s. Lifting the regulations that allowed S&Ls to turn themselves into casinos was the first. I believe the greedy capitalists saw that the resilience of the economy was able to absorb that bail out and decided we were an endless supply of cash they could leech upon.

I don't know what the proper reserve for the banking industry is, but it is certainly above zero where they dropped it!!


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

It is 10 percent. So you put a grand into savings (or even just checking to pay bills) and they can loan 9000 on that instantly. All the payments coming in on all the loans (yours and others) ? They can loan right back out at the same multiple. Over-simplifying here, but it's a bad thing that we're just used to. Let something happen that causes even a small run on the banks to get what is yours and it will seem like the great stock market crash all over again. They do not have your money.

Have you noticed in recent years how they are putting holds on deposits… you put a big check in for labor and materials and maybe some profit, then they tell you that a small percent is available today, some more in two days, then the rest early next week. Say what ? It has nothing to do with the check being good or anything other than: The longer they have it without turning loose of it, the bigger the pile gets in the "we've got the money but we got some free time to use most of it before it goes back out" account. Deposits and time of possession are HUGE to the banks. HUGE.

As for your regular deposits, you think they are holding your money for you, but they are at the very least using the hell out of it… and at worst they are gambling with it nearly without discourse because of the FDIC guarantee by the government. Then they make all the stupid loans during the housing bubble, get caught and the government bails them out for the most part because they are too big to fail. Even the failed banks (still more every month)... read what failure means, actually. Another bank gets the deposits and the loans, then the FDIC eats most of the poison on the entire position.

Follow the money all the way back to where it originates. *I don't mean the paper money…* there is only ever enough of that around to take care of withdrawals. It is standard practice that they increase it (actual paper money) for the holidays and vacation time, etc. *I mean the majority of the money* that is really just a sea of digital accounting.

Ok. Done spewing.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

That is what I have been saying all along, they never should have deregulated the financial institutions. ;-)


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

When we paid off our house it took over a year and a half to get the deed. That was in the late 90s. The Feds did not want me to file a complaint. I don't know if they were too lazy to follow up on it or what, but they gave me a special phone number to get past the run around. I still got it a little bit. I always felt they were using our property to balance their books and claim it as an asset. I don't know enough about the industry to know what kind of scam they could be running.


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

We've done several VA grant bathrooms for vets that need ADA accommodations. They are usually totally gutted, then plumbing and electrical moved around, then back the other way to completion. The jobs average two weeks. Then pictures and affidavit from the vet saying he's happy with the work and it is complete. THEN they call in about a week and TRY to use a VA credit card that would cost me 5% to take it. So FINALLY a couple or three months later a check comes in from the treasury department. So we have to finance all the labor and materials, then wait forever for a check (paper money) over a credit card (digital transaction). If the vets didn't need us so bad, I'd never do another one.


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

That inflaton caused by the war borrowing of the late 60s and early 70s had nearly run its cycle by 1980. Reagan didn't have to declare war on the middle class to fix it.

By the 1980's we were experiencing 5-10% inflation and 20% interest rate…..thank god Reagan came along! FDR and Reagan are consider the 2 greatest presidents in the 20th Century. Even though historian and economists agree that FDR extended the great depression by 8 years though bad policy, his leadership in WWII was impecable.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

That is all quite debatable; choose the historian and economist you want to side with. 100 years from now, historians will say Reagan was the worst thing that ever happened to America. His policies destroyed the economy that built the greatest economic power and middle class in the history of the world. Hamilton laid the basic policies that we followed for 200 years. Reagan and his ship of fools sunk it.

By the time Regan was elected, the inflation of the 70s had nearly worked itself out. What he sowed is being reaped now. No jobs and a debt that has smothered this country. On NBC or CBS a few nights ago, they reported the gov't has finally admitted what I have been saying for years. They have an "under employed rate" of 16%. Add that to the unemployment rate of 9%. What do you get? 24% ;-((

There are those who will say Reagan brought down the Berlin Wall. Not really, he just happened to be in office when it fell. Presidents as far back as Nixon were told by the CIA and knew there would never be a war with the Soviets. Definitely not a ground war in Europe. The Soviets knew they couldn't win. Kruschev visiting the US in the 1950s proved that to them. He must have remembered Yamamoto advising against the industrial might of us, US. ;-)) The only reason there was a Cuban Missile crisis in the 60s was a statement by Kennedy to Kruschev that a nuclear war killing millions would be a terrible thing. Kruschev saw that as a weakness in Kennedy and thought he could push him around. Didn't happen ;-))


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

Topa, you need to stopp reading the media matters bs, I when to thier site and you have their crap doan almost word for word. Try AP or reuters and then read a couple credible history books. I am very disappointed in the schools you attended, for you learned nothing.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Sorry, not quite sure what you are referring to? About the only website I frequent on a regular basis is LJ. Not enough time for many more. When I am on here a lot it is because I am keeping in ad ark quiet place with migraine. Not a time when I want to be thinking about any of this crap. I finished school nearly 40 years ago, I remember a lot of these things when they happened and learned history of the Depression and WWII from those who had just finished doing it. If the people at the site you refer to have come to the same conclusions I have, that is their business.

I have always been a long term planner and thinker. When the IRA law was passed in the 70s, I wondered what that meant to me. I concluded the fixed benefit pension plan was going to go away. I didn't know exactly how, but it surely has by corporate asset raiders like Micheal Milken right on up to Mitt Romney as well as Wall Street setting up a system for people to invest for their retirements with those same Wall Street Criminals skimming 50% off the top over the life of the plan.

I voted for Regan. But when he fired the air traffic controllers, I predicted that was the beginning of the end of the middle class. Today, it is nearly gone. By the time he left office, I predicted this economic melt down to happen between my 60th and 80th birthdays; I did have the precise scenario, but I was 59 1/2.

I have made the kind of money the right wings extremists want to keep for themselves at the expense of ending the American Dream for all future generations. I suppose I should join them, but I tend to take views along the Warren Buffet line. I certainly don't mean that I am anywhere near that league. I seem to have a entirely different set of values than those promoted by my former colleagues in the R party. I regret not recognizing their evil agenda long before I finally did! It is too bad Reagan ended the fairness doctrine in 1987 putting an end to the news business in America. There is no way the middle class would have voted themselves into this predicament if they knew what was really happening to them.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

The majority of inflation is caused by the Federal Reserve creating more money than what we need. Inflation is a devaluation of our money and a hidden tax on the American people. The ones who benefit from newly created money the most are those that get their hands on the money first. After a year or so the money is worth less and most of us 'pay a tax' and didn't even know it. Those on fixed incomes are hurt worst of all. Among others who are hurt are those who save. Of course we are all hurt in the end and our country gets weaker and deeper in debt.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*Inflation or Increasing Prices…* Call it what you want… *BUT…*

*As the Price of OIL goes up, EVERYTHING will follow…*

*Because EVERYTHING in our lives is connected to OIL in some way shape or form…*

Everything that uses Fuel… Trucks, cars, boats, airplanes, generators, etc.
Fertilizer… for all the food we eat…
Everything that has to be transported…
Everything that is Plastic…
Even the air we breathe from air conditioning…
Electricity and everything that uses it…

When the price of EVERYTHING goes up, because of Oil prices going up…
Prices have to be raised so that EVERYONE, doing their thing, can make a "Reasonable" profit…
In order to have people to do all the work, Salaries & Wages must also go UP because EVERYONE must continue to LIVE!

Now, Salaries & Wages cannot be raised immediately like the price of OIL… That means when gasoline (fuel) costs more, we have to pay for it RIGHT NOW, depleting money that was not meant to go toward gasoline & Fuel; therefore, the money left over MUST be spent on items to keep us functioning… Such as:
Food.
Utilities…
Clothing., etc.

Things that DO NOT get paid are:
Other bills like Credit Cards (which balances are getting higher & higher because of lack of money)... Interest starts to kill you from within.
Mortgage, Rents, Leases, cannot get fully paid… no money left over to handle it.

Depending on how long it lasts, other things start to happen…
Foreclosures go up.
Bankruptcys go up…

Major businesses feel the real crunch because they cannot react as fast… Next thing you know they have to close-up…

And so goes the Snowball effect…

So, when the price of OIL goes up dramatically… get ready… it all depends on where you are in the Food Chain before it really catches up with YOU!

*All because of the price of OIL!!*


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

We are running out of oil - one day oil will be as valuable as gold. One day when we're nearly out of oil it may be priceless. Yes, that is a part of the increase of prices. The less there is of something that is in demand the more valuable it becomes in the market place all things being equal from one time to the next.

Today we have x amount of dollars to bid for things in the market place. If there is more money created every year than what is needed by the economy then the money goes down in value and will buy less. It seems that this would be a matter of common sense. Our money is fiat and to a certain extent is based on debt. From oil we get gas and with gas we can get into a car and drive it from Canada all the way down to the bottom of South America and back. Oil is energy and it has a value in itself. What good is debt? Sooner or later the debt catches up with you.

So this puts us in sort of a pickle. We are trying to buy something like oil that has a purpose and is becoming more rare as each year goes by and more valuable because there is less of it with fiat currency that is based partially on debt and is becoming less valuable every year. Does this seem like a sustainable and logical plan? Perhaps keynesian economists know something that we don't. However, it seems to me they keep using the same old tools to fix the problems and the problems get less and less fixable as each year passes. Maybe they are getting close to the last tool on the shelf - the magicians hat.

In the history of the world every country that has taken up the use of fiat currency has ended in disaster. Money was once based on a commodity called gold or silver which have a history of thousands of years of holding their value as a commodity. We shall see how all of this comes out. There is a saying, those who do not know history or choose to ignore it are doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

Who *SAYS* we are almost out of oil?

... The people that are *SELLING* it right?

I think there is plenty of oil… a lot more than we are led to believe… *Right here in the USA!*

*I think it's a SCARE Tactic… just so they can stick the stick a little more up our xxxxxes… LOL*


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## patron (Apr 2, 2009)

probably not greased
unless we pay extra for that

huh *joe*


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

*Joe*, the oil belongs to corporations for the most part. Some of them foreign and some of them domestic. And even if they don't they own the technology to find it, to drill it, and the refineries to turn it into gas. Because the world is becoming a global economy more and more the corporations will sell the oil for whatever the oil brings on the world market as a commodity. For some reason we don't build a lot of refineries anymore - or so is my impression. The laws of economics are hard to fool - they have a way of sneaking up and biting people, corporations, and countries on the ass. The founding fathers resorted to fiat currency to win the War of Independence. Even that fiat currency ended in disaster and from our history books we have all heard of the phrase - *Not worth a continental*. After that the dollar was defined as so many grains of silver if my memory serves me well - I'm certainly no historian nor is my memory impeccable. However, I do have a good dose of common sense. :-|


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

As an after thought the corporations also own or control the majority of the tankers and pipe lines to deliver the oil where it is needed and the majority of all of the filling stations where it will be pumped into your automobile.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*Not worth a continental* My 6th G-gpa Longwell lost everything because he was paid in *Continentals*, but he & his widow did get his pension.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

I'm glad to hear that, *Topa*; else, we might not have had the good pleasure (and it has been a good pleasure) of your company here on Lumberjocks. 

Another statement from history that I'm quite fond of, and I couldn't for the life of me tell you where I heard it, is the following:

*Even a king who is deliberating from the most glorious and powerful throne on the face of the earth is invariably seated on his own ass.*


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

... and* if *our Corporations openly participated in their own OPEC activities, they would be breaking Price Fixing Laws… Right?

Everyone that HAS it can get together and *Say Anything they want*... to shaft the rest of the world… That means *Lie through their Teeth! * The Financial World as well as the Oil World both do the same type of antics!

*New Subject:*
Obama's Job Plan to be announced…

I wonder how many BILLIONS or TRILLIONS of $$$ it will cost!

... and if he just shut down the EPA's stupid practices & removed a huge chunk of RED TAPE, businesses would come ALIVE and start hiring people! (OH, the damn Obama Care must be repealed TOO… Fat Chance, eh?)


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Corps aren't going to hire any one as long as there are 4 billion peasants that work for $2 a day. American jobs will return when Fair trade is reinstated the way it was for the 1st 200 years of the republic..

Not sure I care for Obama care, but we have to do something about health insurance companies with CEOs like Dollar Bill McGuire who took $1.74 Billion for running United Healthcare for a few years. Bonuses dependent on denying benefits to people that paid in for years is not working for most Americans and should be a capital crime. After all, they are knowingly killing people.

The liars tell us they will not cancel our policies. They wait a few years to cancel the whole plan when people are a 15 years older; then, they say we have preexisting conditions. Anyone who believes a word an insurance agent says is a fool.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Clearly Topa, you are an imbecile when it comes to how an insurance company operates.

Like it was said before about your post, they are echoes of Media Matters.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I have to wonder too how they are paying taxes if they are illegal other than maybe sales tax when they buy something?

Sorry to disappoint you again RockTop. Personal experience with Mut of O. I have been self employed the majority of my adult life. It is different out here after you wean yourself from dependency on others to give you a paycheck . If you know of an honest insurance company selling heath ins in WA, I'd like to know who they are. I am getting curious about Media Matters. I'm gong to google them and see what they are about ;-))


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

cr1:
Actually there are 4 types of social security cards issued by SS admin:

If a visiting alien opens a bank account in the US they are issued a SS card so that the feds can tax the money.

I know this for a fact because my mother used to come and visit us here in Texas once or twice a year before she passed. She opened a bank account here locally to deposit her "holiday money" in because unlike banks here, banks in the UK will change currency to local denominations. My mother opened the account and had a check book and withdrawal card.
She was amused when she received a SS card in the mail here, her being a UK citizen and domicile.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

I guess your right Topa. One man's experience with one insurance company provides all the universal knowledge one needs to come to a absolute irrefutable conclusion. I am stupid I guess.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Hey Roger, you have cleared up the issue of how Obama got a Connecticut SSN for me.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Rocky: That's an easy one. Look at the fine print on the back of the card, it says "Made in China"


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Maybe you just lived a sheltered life ;-)) I could go through a few more instances if you want to be bored with them. How about State Farm when our Aerostar spontaneously combusted. They really exposed and proved themselves as the shysters 60 Minutes reported them to be. How about my commercial agent, want to hear about the BS they fed me? Everything is covered until it happens. Or I could go into the research I have done on the ins and health care stocks I have owned. I still get litigation notices about stocks we owned a decade ago. Real peaches of civility, that is what those [email protected]$$turds are ;-((

I googled Media Matters. I didn't waste much time there. Looked like some kind of propaganda site targeting the brain dead to rebut the commercialized cults operated by Rush Windbag and Limpbeck.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

CR1:

Very good on the SS felony, etc.

*One other point…*

In order for anyone to be able to get a *Refund of income taxes* withheld, *IS* TO HAVE HAD more income taxes *WITHHELD *from their Paychecks than they ended up Owing (on their Return)... therefore, a true REFUND!


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Topa, can you make a point without name calling or changing someone's name in a deragatory manner?

Is there anyone remaining you don't hate ?

You do need help…in all seriousness, seek counseling.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

If one thinks that name altering/calling is an effective tactic in making a thoughtful retort, then by all means continue the practice and see how the world responds.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Turn about is fair play. When John Boner, the speaker of the House, grows up and stops saying "deomorats" I will join in the new level of civility too. Even though I am not a democrat, it is my protest against source of the problem and to point out the disgusting level to which one of the highest offices in our government has sunken.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*"Is there anyone remaining you don't hate ?"* Sorry to disappoint you, I don't hate anybody. Not even the doctor that put me on 400 mg of Topamax. Total waste of time and energy!!


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

wow, been away for a few days and this thread has really decomposed


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## SCR0LL3R (May 28, 2010)

RockyTopScott said:

"Clearly Topa, you are an imbecile when it comes to how an insurance company operates.
Like it was said before about your post, they are echoes of Media Matters."

And later RockyTopScott said:

"If one thinks that name altering/calling is an effective tactic in making a thoughtful retort, then by all means continue the practice and see how the world responds."

You might want to go through and read what you have been posting.

RockyTopScott said:

"Topa, can you make a point without name calling or changing someone's name in a deragatory manner?
Is there anyone remaining you don't hate ?
You do need help…in all seriousness, seek counseling."

This from the guy who hates gays and non-Christians and Liberals and socialists and the poor….


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Hey Keith, please point me to the posts I have made where i show my hate for all those monikers you have listed there.

Feel free to pm me if the list is too long.

If you can show me one place where I said I hate anyone. I will certainly admit it here and now.

Just because I disagree with someone's viewpoint does not mean I hate them. Show me.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Rocky, 
Bigots don't know they are Bigots so good luck finding anything you will recognize. Just saying…


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## SCR0LL3R (May 28, 2010)

Well you got me there Rocky. You never said the word "hate" so any conclusion I have drawn based on what you said must have been me mistaking your "disagreeing with those peoples viewpoints" for "hate". Gotcha!

I guess when you said we should nuke the hell out of Iraq (I'm paraphrasing here) , that was just you expressing your "disagreement with Iraqi people's viewpoints" as well.


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

So, Obama is gonna spend another 300 Billion.

More than half to extend jobless benefits. That will put 'em to work.

And we have some payroll tax cuts for employees that already have a job and employers that one may assume already have all the employees they can stand / afford / need.

The rest is for "infrastructure". Listen for the words "shovel ready". When you hear them, think of the clowns at the circus that have the shovels when the elephants take the center ring.

So lets say it doesn't matter where or how it is spent as long as it gets spent. Based on what's known as "Okun's Law," economists say that a two percentage point rise in GDP translates to a decrease in unemployment of about 1 percentage point. So a $300 billion boost in spending might bring unemployment down from the current rate of 9.1 percent to somewhere around 8.1 percent.

But wait, that means that if they spent 3 trillion that we would have ZERO unemployment. I see the light now. Spending is good for unemployment. Call me enlightened.

Family meeting time. The grown kids need to know this NOW. ;=)


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## SCR0LL3R (May 28, 2010)

The continued devaluation of the dollar is probably about the only thing that will help with new jobs significantly over time. Obviously that has downsides to it. People are going to have to learn to live with less (GASP!). Things are going to get worse before they get better. I suppose throwing $300B at it is like a band-aid on a broken leg. That part doesn't make the climate any better for businesses. I do think a payroll tax cut could maybe be good as long as it gets made up for elsewhere (DEFENSE BUDGET!)

There are a lot of ways that the problems could be remedied. From one extreme to the other (right or left and plenty of in-betweens). But nobody can get anything done because nobody can agree and any workable plan that ever gets started, never gets finished. No politicians can fix it (even if they are honorable and in it for the good of the country) because they have to cater to the masses to stay in power and the masses are too shortsighted or greedy to vote for the big picture.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Nobody is even talking about reality, just BS!! Where is Ross Perot when we really need him? Fair trade, not free trade.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

We need to follow the Canadian example and get rid of the the liberals with their Keynesian Stimulus model of spending into prosperity.

Thank god they (Canada) had the foresight to elect Stephen Harper (a conservative) in 2006 to help them avoid the the decline that the US has right now in the currency value Welfare state and high unemployment.
Just look at the exchange rate between US and Canada these days.


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

and Global warming is making Canada more attractive every year, eh ?


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

What a dumb sheet…


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

SCR0LL3R:
Wise words. If people don't learn to live with less, they will find themselves living with much, much less in the future by default. We have to start afresh, stop the party politics and take a good hard look at reality.
If we cannot sustain ourselves independently as a country then we will never stop being customers with no jobs. We need desperately to return to our roots as a nation of innovation and manufacturing and be self sufficient and have goods to export.
IF anyone comes up with a promise to get the country back in business as I have outlined, I will vote for them no matter what political party they represent. It's a pity our 2 party choice prefers to play games of chance instead of addressing the dire needs of our country.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

It will take a financial collapse or a depression before the American people will come to grips with the financial problems that we face but the solutions then will be far worse with fewer choices than if we tackled the problem now while we have some choices about how we do it.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

Here's a good read. In fact it's so good I think I'll read it a couple of more times.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*helluvawreck:*
*"It will take a financial collapse or a depression before the American people will come to grips with the financial problems that we face but the solutions then will be far worse with fewer choices than if we tackled the problem now while we have some choices about how we do it."*

I thought what was already happening… as we speak…  LOL


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## devann (Jan 11, 2011)

Joe, I believe you're right. It is happening today as we post here. I think that what it'll take to steer this country back to prosperity in for more of us to communicate to our elected officials what we expect of them and a better informed populace at the ballot box.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

Yep… We have to spread the word to the people that are in LALA Land (in their own little world) in order to get them to "See the Light" and VOTE next time… instead of taking advantage of the wide open golf courses! IMHO LOL


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

*Joe*, things can get a whole lot worse than they are now and it can happen rather quickly. Nothing much has been solved and all of the problems are lying just under the surface. Most of the people that are running the show never saw the end of the housing bubble coming and the financial crash a couple of years ago. However, there are many who did see it coming but nobody paid any attention to what they said and they are the same ones who are still saying that nothing has been solved and that those problems are still there under the surface only now we are even in worse debt and are headed towards a train wreck.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Joe and Darrell,
I only wished that I could share your optimism, there is no game plan, just a game going on.
Unfortunately the populous of today has no practical knowledge of what it takes to bring the country back to prosperity for all.
Sadly there almost no survivors of the great depression alive, and fewer and fewer of those who hard to restart after WW2, so basically we find ourselves in a situation where the majority today don't have any experience to do the things critical to recovery, some even don't care, and of course these older heads are deemed senile.
What we need to do is dissolve party politics for a set period and have a government of national unity and reconstruction, elect representatives who understand our plight and will work with anyone with the same mind set. We can go back to party politics as a luxury when our current problems are solved. It will take harsh decisions and implementation, every one needs to be on board, everyone shares the pain.
The circus needs to leave town.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*helluv & Roger:
*
You are BOTH absolutely correct… That is what makes this go-around the SCARIEST of them ALL!

God help us… we need it…


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

cr1: Amen

When you have the answers to those 2 questions, let me know.

Read my previous post if you want ideas


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

If we keep devaluing the dollar we will eventually have the dollar displaced as the world reserve currency and that will be a disaster for us nearly overnight. Right now we are able to push a lot of this inflation that is being created onto the rest of the world only because the dollar is the reserve currency however it is a double edge sword because the devaluation of the dollar and our debt is also pushing the dollar out of being the reserve currency. Besides, pushing inflation onto the rest of the world is immoral. Just because we can doesn't mean that we should. Since our dollar is the reserve currency we should have guarded our currency at all cost. Instead we are just flushing it down the toilet.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

My brother and I are in manufacturing. We had a good business that we built up since 1984 and we grew every year. We had 50 people and we are now down to 17. We have been in manufacturing together for 40 years. However, we are still making it. There is really no certainty in it anymore. Downsize seems to be the only way. The whole climate is questionable because the politicians leave too many questions unanswered. You can't invest in the future with a bunch of unanswered questions staring you in the face. My brother and I have always loved to buy machinery at auctions. Over the last two years we have seen good machinery bringing nothing at auctions. We're looking at huge plants being dismantled. Some equipment goes for less than it's scrap value. Look at all of the plants that have moved overseas. How will you ever rebuild the manufacturing base that this country had. I sure as hell don't know. Who in their right mind wants a manufacturing plant in this country. We'll do the best we can for as long as we can and will probably survive ok unless they just run the whole economy into the ground which they very well may do.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*I rather prefer the model we had after WWII when MADE IN AMERICA meant that it was the best the planet …... How did we lose that? How can we get that back.*

Reverse the Reagan Revolution. In 1980, we were the world's creditor and the world's supplier of manufactured goods. After 30 years of stupidity and suicidal policy added to the motivation of a few greedy billionaires, we are the world's largest debtor and importer mfrd goods. ;-((


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## SCR0LL3R (May 28, 2010)

cr1 said:

"That only has validity when one thinks that producing boatloads of cheap crap like the Chinese is the way American Industry should go."

Why does a lower dollar mean that the country has to produce crap? It lets you sell any products internationally at a lower price than if the dollar was higher. It will help with income from exports of any quality and reduce the amount of importing going on meaning more Americans will buy American made as the price/quality ratio gets closer to that of Asian imports.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

Devaluing the dollar causes inflation and it kills the middle class. It is exactly why the middle class is not making anymore in real terms than it did in 1971. What you gain by lowering the price of your exports you quickly loose by the higher price you have to pay for your imports. There are quite a lot of things that have to be imported now because we are destroying the manufacturing base. Not only that but devaluing the dollar will destroy the reserve status of our currency so then we have a whole host of other problems because of that.


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## SCR0LL3R (May 28, 2010)

Yes it does have downsides of course and is less than ideal. As has already been said. I'm gonna go ahead and quote myself 

"Obviously that has downsides to it. People are going to have to learn to live with less (GASP!). Things are going to get worse before they get better."

Paying more for imports is mostly a good thing. AT least for anything that can be made or harvested locally. Not to the consumer who wants to own lots of crap, but for the country as a whole. Cheap imports is a very big contributor to this whole mess. That's why there are(or used to be) duties charged on imports.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

And, *Keith*, what happens if you carry it so far as to loose our status of having the world's reserve currency? The world is getting more than a little tired of having to eat our devalued dollars and are also becoming tired of loaning us money at virtually o% and, at this point, are wondering if they will even be paid back. It's really all sort of an unsettling situation to say the least and I don't really see it working out very well at all at this point.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

HorizontalMike

You presumed opinion of me really does not matter to me. You are entitled to your opinion, even when you are wrong.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

David Grimes:
*"So, Obama is gonna spend another 300 Billion."*

He still does NOT *"Get It".*..


$400 Billion… Four Hundred Billion Dollars to be going down the drain!!*
*
*

*Regulations needlessly enforced by the EPA should be STOPPED.*.. and NOT construed as "Needed for our Health & Welfare".

*Trash ObamaCare* or *make it perfectly CLEAR how much a business is to be forced to pay for it…*

There must be a reason… an excitement… for a business to want to Hire people.

*An Investment Tax Credit…*

Same O Same O… The Giant Flushing Sound…


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

Ive said it a million times do nothing, every time parties work together we get crap like the patriot act. If they would quit trying to help us things might stabilize. When things are stable is when we prosper. The current mess was from the endless government meddling in the economy to prop it up, so instead of a little pain here and there we finally loose the leg to gangrene instead of deal with an ingrone toenail.


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

We have an advanced gingivitis economy. "You're teeth are just fine, but these gums have got to go."


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

I fell asleep… only to awake to the same CRAP I heard a long time ago…

*P L E A S E . . .

Don't Pee on my leg and Tell me it's raining!
*


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

Joe Lyddon:

*"He still does NOT "Get It"…

$400 Billion… Four Hundred Billion Dollars to be going down the drain!!"*

I didn't fall asleep, but that didn't stop it from creeping up some more…

WASHINGTON (AP)-Attacking a deepening jobs crisis, President Barack Obama challenged a reluctant Congress Thursday night to urgently pass a larger-than-expected $450 billion plan to "jolt an economy that has stalled." He urged lawmakers to slash Social Security taxes for tens of millions of Americans and for almost every business to encourage hiring.

*That's not my pee on your leg. You just are obviously really glad to see me.*


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

Made in USA still means it is the best on the planet….but Americans don't buy the best on the planet, they buy what they can get by with. Our Wealth is declining because of our attitudes, we want today what we will earn tomorrow. Credit has become to easy. In the 40's and 50's there was no such thing as credit cards, we had Pawn stores. Prior to 1938 the longest mortgage a person could get was 7 years. If our country is to thrive again the people and the government need to earn and save iinstead of spend and borrow.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

*Yank*, I prefer something made in America, but what you say is a blanket statement and it just doesn't hold true across the board. We're in the molding business. Weinig molders are simply the best - they're made in Germany. In fact German engineering and quality control is hard to beat in whatever they put their minds to make it so. I work on all of our equipment and am a pretty good self taught machinist and an engineer - Weinigs tolerances on their parts are unbelievable. I don't know how many people who drive Hondas but it's quite a lot of people. Hondas are made in Japan and I know people who drive those things for years and hundreds of thousands of miles and they just keep on going. I know that the best carving tools are made in Europe. In fact if it were not for foreign made equipment the woodworking industry wood literally be up sh*t creek without a paddle. There are some manufacturers of woodworking equipment in Europe that make the best equipment in their fields. Israel makes fine tooling for the woodworking and other industries. I've been in the woodworking industry for forty years and most of the American woodworking machinery manufactures just were not innovative and the machinery never changed much. However, the European woodworking machine manufacturers have been very innovative and quality driven. Somehow I hope that America can get back on track in some of the areas that we have given up the lead in. We are still 'the best on the planet' on some things but not everything. If we don't admit this then how will we ever correct it? I certainly agree that we rely too much on credit and that we buy a lot of cheap merchandise. However, the middle class is pretty strapped financially and have to be frugal to make ends meet. I'm really not sure what all of the answers are.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

*Yank*, you are so right on about the saving and the borrowing. However, by creating all of the inflation that our government creates it demolishes people's savings and so they are penalized for doing a wise thing; it also kills the middle class, and people who are on fixed incomes are devastated.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

So the grand Jobs plan is stimulus 2
With an HONEST we will track the shovel ready projects this time.

Followed by…this will al be paid for the supercomittee will need to find 2Trillion in cuts instead of the current 1.5 by year end. So my 450Billion dollar Stimulus Jr will be paid for because " I want you guys in congress to make it so" *WOW what a visionary leader!*
To those who keep saying Barack is so smart…show some evidence please.

The plan pieces I heard -
School Remodeling - well in our comunity this was a bond issue - So Barry decided that municipal building maintenance is a federal goal.

Continuing the Social Security tax holiday - well (A) that only helps those that already have jobs, and (B) doesn't encourage adding employees. Those that are holding off hiring are *NOT* now saying "If I can save 2% on our FICA lets put out the want ads"

Pay the states not to downsize government workers (til after 2012 elections)

And my favorite is lets raise Taxes because my buddy Warren Buffet says he pays less than his secretary - well (A) Buffet doesn't have 'Wages' from a W2 - but Capital gains from stocks. So cranking the tax rates wont affect him anyway. (B) he hasn't paid up his taxes since 2002 anyway so he absolutely right about not "paying his share" - he ought to wear an orange jumpsuit with madoff.

Finally we need to tax those evil corporations - while the biggest job exporter GE's Jeff Immelt is sitting beside Michelle Obama in the galery after moving his aircraft and X-ray medical businesses to China an hiring 10,000 Chinese. Yet that is the best guy for getting AMERICANS back to work?

NOVEMBER 2012 cannot come soon enough.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

I'd like to know why it costs $450 billion to cut all those taxes, etc.

What does he have to SPEND it on?!

We don't have to pay Congress overtime to get the job done… do we?


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Shovel ready jobs
Training Manual

I think this blog has a good chance of hitting 1000


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

helluvawreck:
Your post of wanting to purchase American made tools but also noting that some "foreign" made tools are far superior is well taken.
I have included in my posts before that one of the reasons that American made tools went on the decline is purely because of arrogant complacency by manufacturers that they could keep on churning out the same old outdated products for years after WW2 because it was a "take it or leave it" market where countries had lost their manufacturing industries through the war. It was obvious that their industries would revive and they had to employ innovation and quality to become viable. The US just sat on it's laurels and though the gravy train would last forever, so why improve their products? - it cost money to do that.
Post WW2 tools, machinery and autos were common place all over Europe as there was nothing else they could get. It is nonsense to think that these countries stricken by the aftermath of war who had themselves made super battleships, built rockets, invented the jet engine, invented the magnatron etc., etc. would not ever have the knowledge or skills to rebuild their industries?
US autos had ancient designed inefficient engines, many different models and brands that were basically the same with bodywork differences, in other words, the same old product with a new wrapper.
Today, nobody can say Japan and European countries produce "crap", in fact they produce items of quality and precision and are very customer satisfaction and safety oriented. That is not to say that the US does not produce complimentary items, but there a far fewer than ever before.
Again, until we in this country understand that we can make the best items and manufacture them, we will just become a customer, we need to be the manufacturer.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*"The question is whether, in the face of an ongoing national crisis, we can stop the political circus and actually do something to help the economy." PRESIDENT OBAMA, speaking to Congress.*

That really is the question of the day. Will Boner and the Rs continue to block everything and work harder to manufacture more crisis like the Tea Party Downgrade and keep unemployment high or will they put America ahead of political maneuvers?

The majority of economists of all political flavors agree the stimulus package kept the economy form getting worse, but it was too small and too much of it was tax cuts to keep the Rs from filibustering it in the Senate.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Topa:
The question is "Will anyone or everyone put the country first and stop all the political maneuvering and jibes?" 
Bad choices and political ideals have got us where we are today, so why do we need more of the same?

It's time to start over, go back to tried and true methods that made this country great, void of mass hysteria political crap, and a common population desire to stop this posturing and roll their sleeves up and get their hands dirty to get things going. We have just had another Pearl Harbor, remember how we recovered from that and follow that example, a united country willing to do anything that was required of them.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Another very important situation regarding companies and their strategies is to relate how things used to work and innovation, design and quality were the hallmarks of "Made in USA" 
Heads of companies used to be well seasoned, innovative, technical and scientific geniuses who gave birth to their products and carried the company forward with their unfailing zeal to be the best manufacturer.
These days of having people in charge who knew the product inside out and used their brains to invent and upgrade their product, are few and far between.
In most cases, shareholders have replaced these knowledgeable with people who have no idea or inclination about the product, but are a wiz at generating share value. A person(s) of this caliber don't really give a damn about the product, don't innovate on design, but concentrate on cutting costs. Yes they will send manufacturing overseas because it's cheaper, no they don't care about loss of quality, and no they are not interested in new designs (cost of tooling) and have benevolence towards employees.
There are exceptions: Apple remained innovative and quality conscious with Steve Jobs, Sam Walton was a good promoter of "Made in America" goods, however his family has not been so loyal - RIP Sam. Even Google still has the guys who started the company running things, there are a few more you could add to the list, but not many, even Daimler Benz is headed by an Engineer, not a shoe salesman.

So why is it that shareholders allow non related executives to be hired to run the company?, after all, they just cut the company to ribbons for more profit, then move on to another victim. Well, we can make the shareholders responsible for these rapes, they put personal gain above the well being of the company and indeed the goods the company sells.

Now when we talk about getting back to the way we used to operate, we need to replace these blood sucking executives who have absolutely no passion or interest or knowledge about what the company makes or why national manufacturing pride or employee welfare should have no place in their decisions. In short, shareholder greed comes first, there are no other priorities, just keep the cash flowing and rape at will to get it.

Perhaps some of you can relate to companies that still have their "inventor" as the prime executive, and also those companies where the "inventor(s)" were pushed aside?

Something to think about?


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## SCR0LL3R (May 28, 2010)

cr1 said:
"The current economic catastrophe is entirely the result of communism from the Democrats."

Who's been in power for the majority of the time over the course of this downward spiral?... Them Democrats are very efficient at single handedly ruining a country.

Roger Clark aka Rex said:
"Now when we talk about getting back to the way we used to operate, we need to replace these blood sucking executives who have absolutely no passion or interest or knowledge about what the company makes or why national manufacturing pride or employee welfare should have no place in their decisions. In short, shareholder greed comes first, there are no other priorities, just keep the cash flowing and rape at will to get it."

Yes this is a big problem. Buy it, suck the cash out, then sell it before it comes crashing down. Leave that for the next guy who doesn't know better. It's his fault if he's stupid enough to buy it.


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

Kieth Fenton Said:

"Who's been in power for the majority of the time over the course of this downward spiral?... Them Democrats are very efficient at single handedly ruining a country."

Democrats have been the the majority in the house from 2006 to 2010 and the senate from 2008-Now

There is plenty of blame to go around. Chris Dodd and Barney Frank are some prime examples, look them up if you dont know who they are.


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## patron (Apr 2, 2009)

so let's keep blaming everyone
*
'i will never compromise'* what a bunch of hooey
isn't that what the job is all about

finding ways to accommodate all the different needs

and from what i have seen

the american people 
are just as greedy and lazy
as the politicians
(not all , but too many)

if 'WE THE PEOPLE'
don't wake up
and quit listening to the used car salesmen
that WE elect to run this country
then WE share in the blame too

now most want to be paid to sit at home
and work on the internet
for the same wage they were making 
when things
started going down the toilet

if you let others do your thinking
then you deserve what you get

you might as well base our financial future on the lotto
or casinos

why is that any different from
the speculators that run wall street

greedy people may have more than you
but is their lives really better

is yours


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Nice post David -
couple of thoughts - on how we are to blame for the folks we elect:
The challenge is the choices we have at the pols - it is a rigged game. Under the party principles and the primaries, you only get candidates that the "party çomittee" allow - and there are never primary challenges to incumbants you have to wait til they retire or die - so the only way to get rid of corrupt witches like Nancy Pelosi would be to convince the SanFrancisco Crowd to vote for the republican - there is no option to have a "better democrat"

As far as compromise - - there are always going to be lines that you will not cross - and it may seem like that line would never be challenged - yet you find these folks who are affecting public policy in ghastly ways.

We could return to the days where everyone below a certain IQ or other mental issue is sterilized (Eugenics) which was still in use in Oregon until *1983* http://www.disabilityrightsoregon.org/results/ending-eugenics-in-oregon
Now it is voluntary
In 2002, then Governor John Kitzhaber apologized on behalf of the state of Oregon to the over 2,600 Oregonians who underwent forced sterilizations during the sixty years the practice was permitted.

For me this should never have been mandated, I see no gray area there. Oregon and North Dakota favored Castration rather than vasectomy…Who could defend such a barbaric practice? Yet there it is!

- I find the progressives see EVERYTHING is negotiable All morals are somehow relative: San Fran bill to legalize public nudity (except restaurants) as long as you sit on a towel, decriminalization of child predators now called "Minor Attracted Individuals" so as not to stigmatize their condition. I would *not* negotiate that sex with 4 year olds shoudl be OK - but there are lobbys asking for it like NAMBLA the National Man Boy Love Association - which Obama's Safe school Czar Kevin Jennings was on record praising- - feel safer about your kids schools now?


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## patron (Apr 2, 2009)

i will never compromise my morals

it does seem that to be a politician
that is OK

we don't elect our leaders 
as you say
money and party politics do

politics has become a super bowl

here we have all these 300 + people
elected to do a job

they seem to think that it is all about
'get the quarterback'

so instead of working for us
they spend all their time
looking for dirt
or blocking everything from the other 'team'

and for 4 years that is all they do

term limits
same money for all
(maybe from our taxes)
no political adds till 2 months before the election
tell us who you are
and what you plan on doing

any mud slinging or 'below the belt'
and you are out

we have more to do to live
than spend all our time listening to all these crooks
calling each other names and wasting our time

people need to look at the person
not the promise


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## bubbyboy (Jan 10, 2011)

The biggest problem of all is the fact that in the USA we have some of the smartest people in the world! But unfournately if you were not born into money and or become extremely rich you will never have a chance in hell of running for office and winning no matter how smart you are. I would vote for some of you guys after reading your posts but without money there is no chance of even getting you to the debate stage its just to damn bad because there are some good smart people here!!!


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## bubbyboy (Jan 10, 2011)

*MY FIRST VOTE PATRON*


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

If you are talking about the pure evil of Corporate Communism/Socialism vs Capitalism for the worker , then I agree.


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## grizzman (May 10, 2009)

i think that most of them should pack there lunches and just go home…if obama would call mayflower and have his family moved out to there new home in kabul…and then if we would get a good president in there like maybe mr romney…that we can start all over and get thing cleaned up…....


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## grizzman (May 10, 2009)

hey look, i was number 1000 posted…do i win a cool forum prize….everyone who has made a comment on this forum…come up with one dollar…and send it to me…and i will get a new bandsaw…you have to see the logic in that one


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## devann (Jan 11, 2011)

If I send ya a dollar are you going to resaw some ipe fpr me? same thing with the logic. you have to be here.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Sorry Grizz, You just won the Birdhouse Contest. Since we are a commie country now, we have to spread the winnings, so I guess we will douible the prize for # 2k ;-))


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Geez, CR1 yesterday you wanted everything American made and pre Reagan, now today its back the other way again ;-( I thought you had come around ;-))

Congress may have had a majority of Ds, but of 240 bills passed, they were all filibustered in the Senate, so the minority has stopped the country dead in its tracks. The Rs even threw out the American made clause of the stimulus bill. Why did they send billions of our tax dollars to China when the US tax payers money is supposed to rebuilt our economy that was crashed by the captians of the financial institutions?

Obama has tried to be reaonable and compromise with the Rs. Boner even said he got 98% of what he wanted in the Tea Party Downgrade negotiations. The last non-compromis issue is privatization of Social Security. Wall Street has lost 50% of everybody's private pensions and a lot of public pensions in the last decade. Why would we give them the last save haven? He has given in so many times the Ds believe he, like Harry Reid, is nothing but a spineless wimp.


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## patron (Apr 2, 2009)

when 'boner' claimed he got 98%
of what he wanted

i assume that to be a promise
to be the last one to be laid off
(or fired)

the rest of us just have to wait
for the elections to do that

regardless of what party they belong to
their job is to help us
their job is to *represent* us
(not help as written) 
edit thanks to patcollins
(see below)

not just themselves

WE THE PEOPLE

need to have our own government

let them keep theirs

they made this mess
let them wallow in it

we all can't work at Mc Donald's

some body has to buy the hamburger
and the rich don't eat there


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

Topa

About the privateization of social security, that doesnt mean that it has to be in securities, it can be in bonds, money market etc. From your past posts I gather you blame wallstreet for people that fail to properly diversify their portfolio. In the 11 years that I have been out of college I have done very well in securities, but I am not too stupid to diversify my portfolio. If someone close to retirement had the majority of their portfolio in one company or all in small cap growth stocks Im sorry that is juts their own fault for not learning something about what they have so much of their money in. Someone over 50 should have atleast half of their money in fixed income investments.

I also have no sympathy for those people that did not read the papers for their mortgage when they signed up for such a commitment. If people think "oh its math its hard" or "this is too boring to learn about" they have no one to blame but themselves.

I can do better buying US saving bonds than what I will do with social security and there is no risk there, the I series always pays over the rate of inflation.


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## Porchfish (Jun 20, 2011)

Trickle down ? Is that where they piss on your head and try to convince you it's just raining ? Privatization, another method for corporate america to disguise the fact that they are pissing on your head ! Ask a floridian about their experience with privatization suffered at the hands of the pillsbury doughboy (Jebb Bush). It will take decades to undo the damage. Yay robber barons ! From the pen of Adam Smith "Wealth of Nations" (considered by most to be the father of modern capitalism) ...."Not all conservative people are stupid , but all stupid people are conservative" ! L.D. Bronstein said that " if you scratch a haughty individualist, underneath you will find a vulgar cynic" Voila ! Fox Gnus


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

Patron, congress's job is not to "help" us, it is to represent us. Help makes us sound like pets that could not get by without the government, and for some that is true. Me, I want a representative not a keeper.


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## RZH (Nov 20, 2009)

*About the privateization of social security, that doesnt mean that it has to be in securities, it can be in bonds, money market etc. From your past posts I gather you blame wallstreet for people that fail to properly diversify their portfolio. In the 11 years that I have been out of college I have done very well in securities, but I am not too stupid to diversify my portfolio.*

So the problem in the financial crisis was the lack of diversification? That is laughable. It was fraud. Many AAA rated bonds were junk. Wall Street knew what they were doing. They profited on the way up and set up bets to profit from the crash too. Just one example: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/24/business/24trading.html


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

The Rs in Congress are putting getting Obama out ahead of the welfare of the US and the unemployed. Their wicked schemes are why I left the party.

Obama's job plan will go nowhere because the Rs will not let it. Those who are paying attention with an open mind and the un and under employed will probably swing the 2012 election in Obama's favor.

Pat Collins, I'm glad you are doing well in securities. I can only assume yoiu are capable of doing it yourself or got lucky and found an honest financial advisor. You missed out on the fraud of the 90s when most of the major players were filing fraudulent financial to boost stock prices. Remember Bush tell the CEOs anyone who doesn't have their books cleaned up in a year are going to prison? Some companies didn't get it done that quickly, but nobody went to prison. You are very naive, I hope you are spared the lessons of the market. Greenspan's position was good people are running the markets and fraud is a market risk. He was wrong on both counts. Greedy criminals took down the markets and the economy and fraud is a crime. The derivatives that total more than the world's gross product are insane.


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

RZH, no the financial crisis was people getting loans that they could not afford because they "wanted it sooooo much" and "house prices always go up" The financial institutions thought that people would do anything to stay in their houses. In the past this was true, but with the housing bubble created because the do gooders in government that thought everyone should own a house interfering there were people that just walked away because it truely was cheaper and there were also people that would have never done the right thing no matter what. Then a company that insured those loans (AIG) could not keep up and it fell and started a domino effect.

The problem with individual people loosing so much in their retirement accounts was due to their lack of diversification. The point of diversification is if one security or bond goes down (from fraud or whatever) then the entire portfolio does not. Yes there were some AAA rated bonds that were trash but a broad based bond index fund weathered the storm quite well (I know I have money in it).

I never said the financial crisis was due to lack of diversification, that was nothing more than an emotional, non-fact based post.

Topa - a good financial advisor is one that is independant and not paid to hock a certian product. I do all my financial planning myself and I do my mothers too. My retirement account is all broad based indexes and I also have a ROTH IRA that will be for the motor home or private island purchase when the time comes (no taxes to loose on it when I withdraw a huge chunk). And yes I have lost money on certian stocks (Worldcom, Dell, Cheesecake factory) but I also made out on some (WWE, Ricks Cabaret, Ford). So no I have not been shielded, but I accept reality and plan accordingly. As soon as investing and retirement becomes emotional based that is when you should hold only cash positions because you will loose money when you have an emotional investment in it.


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## RZH (Nov 20, 2009)

*financial crisis was people getting loans that they could not afford because they "wanted it sooooo much" and "house prices always go up"*

We disagree. What you describe is the HOUSING CRISIS. People bought homes they couldn't afford or they were speculating.

The FINANCIAL CRISIS was the fraud that Wall Street created by developing investments that were misrepresented and sold to the world bond markets. It was about institutions over leveraging their investments to make fast easy money even at the risk of destorying their own companies.


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

RZH, those investments were in the housing market. If not for the housing collapse the financial crisis would not have happened. Around here people would put their house for sale and there would be people getting into bidding wars over the asking price, that was just crazy. I was not yet a home owner and said to myself there will be alot of foreclosures in 5 years, I let my emotions get to me and bought a house anyway before "they got too high" but atleast I got it somewhat on the way down.

Anyone with a lick of sense would know the deravitives on mortgages that were outpacing the mortgage interest itself would come down. Goldman knew it, hell I knew it. The investors that bought deravitives should have asked themselves why is Goldman selling these if they are making so much money….

I have been dabbling in options, with options you can make money really fast, but also loose all of it. So far I have lost every time but its nobodys fault but my own.


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

One of the things that I think people dont think about is oil, a barrel of oil has been around $100 for a good while, how many barrels does the US use every day? Now think about this that money leaves the country to never return every day, leaves our economy completely. If we produced more of our own oil, I believe we would not have so much unemployment.

I've often wondered if we are just waiting for the world to run out of oil before we tap our own. It does make sense to use up the rest of the worlds oil first…


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

patcollins SAID: "...no the financial crisis was people getting loans that they could not afford because they "wanted it sooooo much" and "house prices always go up""

Yep, it was all those tens of millions of those working people who OUTSMARTED a few thousand Banksters. Boy those Banksters were stupid *tens of millions* of times. Uh huh, yup, 'shore…


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

HorizontalMike you go ahead and believe that, where did I once say bankers were outsmarted? You are reading what you want to read.

Go ahead and believe everything bad that happens to you or working people was the fault of someone with more and see where that gets you.

The banks took greater risks than they would if left to their own devices because of requirements to loan money to people with less than stellar credit history. They then tried to make lemonaid of of lemons and it ended up tasting like pee instead.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*OK, let's reminisce a little…*

*When, or shortly after, people were buying homes* *at HUGE interest rates*..and at HUGE prices… . resulting in HUGE payments… and the price of Real Estate was also making HUGE increases… (this was back a ways…)...

OPEC started putting the squeeze on oil (again) FORCING the price of gasoline AND *EVERYTHING oil Touches* to go UP, UP, *and UP!*

Our nation literally runs on Gasoline & fuel… buying gasoline to go to work and to buy food, etc. MUST BE DONE… taking a huge bigger bite out of the family / business Income… Utilities MUST BE purchased… leaving the Mortgage to wait… and wait… *and wait… *

*The big BALL starts to roll… forcing foreclosures..*. more and more… 
.*.. until it really brings the house down… down… and DOWN.*

Remember that sequence of events??

To me, Oil should be placed in the class of a Utility…like Natural Gas, Water, & Electricity… meaning the Price should NOT be able to be manipulated like a Stock or Commodity… (like it *IS* & *has been*).
Our overall economy would be a lot more stable… I think…


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Hey Pat,

Mike and Topa have this victim mentality. Someone else always seems to be the cause for one's woes.

RTS


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

patcollins SAID: "They then tried to make lemonaid of of lemons and it ended up tasting like pee instead."

And that sir, is the FRAUD of the Banksters NOT the homeowners.


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

Joe

Unfortunately I believe we would have shortages like in the 70's if that were the case. One of the worst things I believe ever happened to consumers is the Lean Manufacturing process, you know the right delivery at the right time crap. Now we warehouse nothing so if one delivery is missed it creates a downward spiral. I believe speculators should not be able to buy future shipments of oil unless they can store it themselves.


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

Mike

How is it fraud of the banker when the guy with the loan doesnt pay the mortgage? When the guy with the loan had no idea if he could pay or not because he just thought he would get the house, its value would go up and then he would take out another loan on it.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*horizontal:*
*
"And that sir, is the FRAUD of the Banksters NOT the homeowners."

*

I think, for the most part, the homeowner did NOT commit fraud… I think the homeowner, once being squeezed, did everything they could do to stay afloat.

The FRAUD was that of the Banksters & Financial institutions… no question about it… (for the most part)


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## RZH (Nov 20, 2009)

*Fraud? Prove it. Prove this accusation.
To the best of my information the vast majority of brokers and traders who were dealing in all these crappy mortgages were abiding with the law. They didn't create the bad loans.*

CR1 You're right they didn't create them. They bundled them and they and the rating agencies consipired to rate them AAA. If they had to hold that crap on their books they would have never participated.

*" It was about institutions over leveraging their investments to make fast easy money even at the risk of destorying their own companies."

LOL, Isn't that how the investment business operates?*

Leveraged 30 to 1. That's how businesses collapse.


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## RZH (Nov 20, 2009)

*Anyone with a lick of sense would know the deravitives on mortgages that were outpacing the mortgage interest itself would come down. Goldman knew it, hell I knew it. The investors that bought deravitives should have asked themselves why is Goldman selling these if they are making so much money….*

Investors bought AAA and they recieved less than junk. Goldman made money on fees not mortgage interest.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*"(FRAUD of the Banksters)"*

If a Mortgage for a *Shack* is described as being a *Hotel* (the basic idea),* to me, it's FRAUD…*

*Especially when the Mortgage is SOLD as a Hotel!*

*If there is NO law against that, THERE SHOULD BE!*


----------



## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

Joe, you have lost me, are you saying that houses sold were shacks when they were described as much nicer? If so taht is the seller and the realtor doing that. (I do blame realtors in telling people their houses were worth more than they really were btw)

People made the classic mistake buying houses that car buyers make, they bought on payment, not price.


----------



## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

RZH

These investors you talk about are part of the "wall street club". They should know that something rated as AAA but has a payout of a junk bond is fishy. BTW junk isnt necessarly bad, its a higher interest yielding investment to make up for increased risk.


----------



## RZH (Nov 20, 2009)

Pat,
I know what a junk bond is. How about:

Investors bought AAA and they recieved less than *crap.*

BTW not all investors are part of the "wall street club". A large number of investors that got screwed were on the outside of the "wall street club". I'm sure you have heard of them, the "main street club".


----------



## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

... I modified the post… hope it's clearer now…


----------



## devann (Jan 11, 2011)

After two years of Obama … Here's your change!

January 2009 
TODAY 
% chg 
Source

Avg.. Retail price/gallon gas in U.S. 
$1.83 
$3.44 
84% 
1

Crude oil, European Brent (barrel) 
$43.48 
$99.02 
127.7% 
2

Crude oil, West TX Inter. (barrel) 
$38.74 
$91.38 
135.9% 
2

Gold: London (per troy oz.) 
$853.25 
$1,369.50 
60.5% 
2

Corn, No.2 yellow, Central, IL 
$3.56 
$6.33 
78.1% 
2

Soybeans, No. 1 yellow, IL 
$9.66 
$13..75 
42.3% 
2

Sugar, cane, raw, world, lb. Fob 
$13..37 
$35..39 
164.7% 
2 
Unemployment rate, non-farm, overall

7.6% 
9.4% 
23.7% 
3

Unemployment rate, blacks 
12.6% 
15.8% 
25.4% 
3

Number of unemployed 
11,616,000 
14,485,000 
24.7% 
3

Number of fed. Employees 
2,779,000 
2,840,000 
2.2% 
3

Real median household income 
$50,112 
$49,777 
-0.7% 
4

Number of food stamp recipients 
31,983,716 
43,200,878 
35.1% 
5

Number of unemployment benefit recipients 
7,526,598 
9,193,838 
22.2% 
6

Number of long-term unemployed 
2,600,000 
6,400,000 
146.2% 
3

Poverty rate, individuals 
13.2% 
14.3% 
8.3% 
4

People in poverty in U.S. 
39,800,000 
43,600,000 
9.5% 
4

U.S. . Rank in Economic Freedom World Rankings 
5 
9 
n/a 
10

Present Situation Index 
29.9 
23.5 
-21.4% 
11

Failed banks 
140 
164 
17.1% 
12

U.S. . Dollar versus Japanese yen exchange rate 
89.76 
82.03 
-8.6% 
2

U.S. . Money supply, M1, in billions 
1,575.1 
1,865.7 
18.4% 
13

U.S. . Money supply, M2, in billions 
8,310.9 
8,852.3 
6.5% 
13

National debt, in trillions 
$10..627 
$14..052 
32.2% 
14

Just take this last item: 
In the last two years we have accumulated national debt at a rate more than 27 times as fast as during the rest of our entire nation's history. Over 27 times as fast. 
Metaphorically speaking, if you are driving in the right lane doing 65 MPH and a car rockets past you in the left lane 27 times faster, it would be doing 7,555MPH!

Sources: (1) U.S. Energy Information Administration; (2) Wall Street Journal; (3) Bureau of Labor Statistics; (4) Census Bureau; (5) USDA; (6) U.S. Dept. Of Labor; (7) FHFA; (8) Standard & Poor's/Case-Shiller; (9) Realty Trac; (10) Heritage Foundation and WSJ; (11) The Conference Board; (12) FDIC; (13) Federal Reserve; (14) U.S. Treasury


----------



## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

Name one non-instutional investor that bought mortgage deravitives.


----------



## RZH (Nov 20, 2009)

*Name one non-instutional investor that bought mortgage deravitives*.

I never said individuals bought *mortgage deravitives*.

As you know, deravitives where used by firms to insure, hedge or bet against mortgage back securites. That is what Goldman used to bet against its own clients. That's how Goldman made billions from AIG (via the US government treasury) when they cashed in their deravitives after the financial collapse.


----------



## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

That is my point, all of those investors that bought them were "big boys". They dont deserve pity, they don't deserve government bailout, they live, learn or die out to be replaced by more responsible buisnesses.

The bailouts are the biggest failings Bush and his twin Obama could have ever envisioned, they have created another airline industry.

In a football comparison: Bush had no idea what to do in Sept 2008 so he basically punted on 3rd down, Obama vowing to not make the same mistakes Bush made decided to punt on 2nd down.


----------



## RZH (Nov 20, 2009)

I don't get your point.


----------



## patron (Apr 2, 2009)

well

obviously everyone here is right

we are in a very deep hole

are there any ideas

about how we can get out of it

or maybe we should continue
to point out how it got this way

that will help 
pass the time
till we are all 
dead


----------



## SCR0LL3R (May 28, 2010)

Devann - I'm not going to get into whether or not Obama is doing a good job. I am going to say that he is getting a disproportionate amount of blame for that slew of numbers that you use to make your point.

Hand the guy the wheel of a sinking ship after you run it into an iceberg and blame him because the water is rushing in . If it goes Republican again next election then we'll see how things get turned around. I honestly hope it does, but somehow I doubt it.


----------



## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*Devann:

"After two years of Obama … Here's your change!"

*

Do you have a Link to that info?
Thank you…


----------



## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

My point is Goldman did not prey on anyone, they actually did not break any laws at all.

I read this article a good while ago and basically agree with what was said.

This in particular sums up what I believe those that blame GS for the mess

"What is happening here is a familiar trend in America after a boom and bust. We all feel embarrassed and ashamed and somewhat culpable in having glorified industries, products and people that then crashed miserably. "

I work with many people that put everything into houses that they could not afford because "Realestate was the best investment ever" I also work with people that took out home equity loan after home equity loan to use as income because their house "just keeps going up". These people are my friends but I have no pity on them, they dug their own grave, I don't blame the guy that sold them the shovel.


----------



## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Devann, I'm still dazzled by those numbers. Stunned is more like it.


----------



## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

Pat,

OK, which Institution sold the *First* Batch of mortgages that contained *Over-Priced Junk* stuff?

Whoever did that, started it all… Right?

*OR…*

Who *FIRST* sold an average lower-class mortgage, *Overpriced* *to make the Buyer think* they were buying a High-Class Mortgage?


----------



## SCR0LL3R (May 28, 2010)

Pat - Why are so many Goldman Sachs ex-executives now controlling the financial side of running the country? They push their extremely lucrative careers aside because now they just want to be of service to the country and it's populace?


----------



## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

Joe Derivitives have actually been around since the 18th centry, I was suprised to learn this myself. One can argue till the cows come home on when things started, hell one can argue when stock was first issued was what created the problems.

As far as price, the price is only what someone is willing to pay.

Keith, I don't like that any more than you do. Why are they leaving to be of service to the country, because after that they have a more intimate knowledge of "the enemy" and will get hired at an even higher pay than before. the questions is who is offering them these jobs, they don't just shoe-horn themselves into those jobs now do they?

After the canidate Obama pledging no lobbyiests in his administration the chief of staff to the Secretary of the Treasury is a former GS lobbyiest.


----------



## patron (Apr 2, 2009)

of course nobody broke the law

their buddy's in government
write them
and leave 'loop holes' in them
big enough to drive an aircraft carrier through

why break the law

when you can rob the till legaly


----------



## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

Pat:
*
"Joe Derivitives have actually been around since the 18th centry, I was suprised to learn this myself. One can argue till the cows come home on when things started, hell one can argue when stock was first issued was what created the problems."*

*Of course*... I'm talking about the *Modern Day overVALUED junk that was fraudulently sold.*

Sure a Buyer can buy anything… *BUT*, in the Financial world, *there are guidelines* of how to establish & measure Value… Anyone that sells a Shack mortgage as if it were a HighValued Mortgage when, under the guidelines, it is truly worthless JUNK, should be punished because they committed FRAUD.


----------



## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Joe,
When I said "...fraud of the Banksters…" I mean *OF* and *BY* the Banksters against those homeowners who were approved for loans that they shouldn't have been approved.

And I could give a rat's ass if Goldman or any of the other Banksters (and that includes my brother-in-law) did not BREAK any laws,... Hell they bought the politicians who wrote THE LAWS specifically FOR them. Fraud is fraud regardless of any "law" that says otherwise. If it smells like crap it IS crap!

When these sub-prime homeowners started watching these BIG hedge funds, Real Estate Brokers, and Banksters "Strategically Defaulting" on the banksters' and hedge funds' own mortgages the Gig was up. *Banksters didn't like it when underwater homeowners adopted the Banksters' own modus operandi.*


----------



## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Sorry Guys, this thread has become a cross between a Yo Yo and a TV series rerun of Agatha Christie's "who done it" movies and has reached Ad Nauseum levels.
There are no winners here, we are all losers and arguing about the path that brought us here, while we should be focused on building a new path to get home.


----------



## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*You got that right!
*
Why don't we *FIX* it *now that we know what is wrong! * LOL!

I think Obama could have done a LOT to fix our problem *without SPENDING a DIME*... But…
... it started out at $300 billion… I think it's closer to $500 billion now… (sick)
... and I don't think any of the money spent will do ANY GOOD… Just more down the toilet!


----------



## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

Mike, I doubt too many that had subprime mortgages have ever even heard of a hedge fund.


----------



## patron (Apr 2, 2009)

Ponder this:

Pythagorean theorem: ...............................................24 words

Lord's prayer:......................................................66 words

Archimedes' Principle: .............................................67 words

10 Commandments: ..................................................179 words

Gettysburg address: ...............................................286 words

Declaration of Independence : ...................................1,300 words

US Constitution with all 27 Amendments : .......................7,818 words

US Government regulations on the sale of cabbage…............26,911 words

SORT OF PUTS THINGS INTO PROPER PERSPECTIVE, DOESN'T IT?


----------



## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*Let's see if we can FIX it in less than 500 words…* LOL


----------



## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

Some of the things would help Fix it…

*1. Remove all sorts of Red Tape* of CITY, STATE, and FEDERAL Governments… Licenses to even think about opening a business… EPA approval… City approval… etc. etc. etc.

*2. Removing the EPA would be a good start..*. that is a dept. that started off, IMHO to handle a temporary job that had to be done, and has done That job and is now trying to Justify it's Existence by creating all sorts of just plain STUPID regulations that are essentially shutting down the Private Sector from starting businesses or forcing many businesses OUT OF BUSINESS losing needed jobs! They have done their job… It's time to remove the EPA!

*3. Repeal ObamaCare! * Having ObamaCare looming over everyone's head, which is still very UNCLEAR, is a huge UNKNOWN as to how the Business world is going to be impacted. Are they going to be required to Pay for Healthcare insurance for ALL of their employees? How Much? Be burdened with filling out MORE monthly reports providing the Government with information to tell them if you're doing the job they want you to do! Requiring more people to be hired JUST TO COMPLY WITH THE GOVERNMENT CRAPPola. This should be Repealed ASAP… If repealed, you will see the Stock Market go UP and Jobs starting to be CREATED by the Public Sector… Just this one item would start the ball rolling… the rest would really get us moving!

*4. R & D Tax Credits!* They promote & provide a true Stimulus to enter into more Research & Development to grow the business.

*5. Investment Tax Credits! *They promote the opening of new businesses and to grow existing businesses.

*6. Income Tax reductions for Corporations and the RICH! *This must be done in conjunction with everything else mentioned. This, without the rest would NOT help much to get the economy rolling immediately (would help in the Long Run).
This leaves more money to the businesses so they can invest, grow, and hire more people to help get the job done. (Creating Jobs!)

That's just some of the important things that should be done…

*In Short, remove as many stumbling blocks & time consuming nonsense to make it better to run a business!*

*If this is NOT done, jobs will NOT be CREATED by the Public sector.*.. Leaving only the Government "Created" jobs which, for the most part, is pouring our tax money down a rat hole.


----------



## SCR0LL3R (May 28, 2010)

#6 = Trickle down economics: A big part of what led to this mess in the first place. The very rich already pay less tax than all but the very poor (maybe you aren't talking about these elites)

Higher tax rates for the rich brings more money to the govt. while simultaneously encouraging them to keep investing their money in business so as to avoid the high taxes when they try to take too much money out in a year.


----------



## SCR0LL3R (May 28, 2010)

#1 and #2 sound like really great ideas. #4 and 5 sound good as well.

I don't really know anything about Obamacare so I don't know about that point. I just think the current health care/insurance set up is not working. Hospitals and health insurance should be not for profit IMO. I know… "them's commie words!"


----------



## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*Keith:*

#3 is a HUGE UNCERTAINTY… The Public sector, that really CREATES jobs, does NOT like it.

#6 = Trickle down economics… The Public sector, for the Rich and the Middle Class CREATE jobs… Let them as much as we can to do it! If they don't do it the whole attempt will fail.


----------



## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Joe,
#6 HAS failed. Those tax cuts for the rich did NOT create jobs.


----------



## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

Mike, *The Lower class has NEVER created jobs;* only the *Middle & Rich class can & will Create jobs*; the Government cannot Create anything BUT Government jobs (*that is NOT creating Jobs*).


----------



## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

David, WE wouldn't need 26,911 words of US Government regulations on the sale of cabbage if we would live by the 179 words in the 10 Commandments.


----------



## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Why have we been loosing jobs ever since the taxes were cut on the rich?


----------



## SCR0LL3R (May 28, 2010)

TopamaxSurvivor said:
*"Why have we been loosing jobs ever since the taxes were cut on the rich?"*

According to some around here, it mostly has to do with Obama. Whatever isn't his fault is the fault of every democrat before him between then and now.

The rich don't get taxed on the money that they keep invested or reinvest. Lowering their taxes reduces their incentive to invest. The high taxes that they paid before Reagan made them much more likely to keep their money where it wouldn't be taxed.


----------



## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*TopamaxSurvivor said: "Why have we been loosing jobs ever since the taxes were cut on the rich?"*
If the future is UNCERTAIN, they will NOT hire / INVEST.

*The rich don't get taxed on the money that they keep invested or reinvest. Lowering their taxes reduces their incentive to invest. The high taxes that they paid before Reagan made them much more likely to keep their money where it wouldn't be taxed.*

The Rich get Richer by Investing and getting a good Return… if they think they can get a good return on their Investments, they will hire thus making Jobs. If they feel they cannot get a good return, they will keep their money until such time they think they can! Just that simple! If, in the past they Kept their money and did NOT make jobs, they didn't feel they could make a good return… Knock off the Obamacare uncertainty and ridiculous EPA enforcements… and I think that would go a LONG way to changing their minds… and cause them to invest in Jobs… might take more than that… But, it must happen… for starters. ... and ALL of the Income Tax revenue created by all those jobs more than offsets any taxes not legally paid by the Rich who created the jobs in the first place.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Bush cut their taxes in 2001 +/-, we lost 50,000 factories and at least 2,000, 000 jobs. Explain that if cuttiing their taxes creates jobs.


----------



## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

CHORUS:
The beat goes on, the beat goes on
Blames keep pounding a rhythm to the brain
La de da de de, la de da de da
....and the beat goes on….....


----------



## bubbyboy (Jan 10, 2011)

All this crap started when people were allowed to walk into a bank and get any amount of money they wanted as a stated income loan. When I bought my house I had tp prove every dime I made, almost impossible to get in over your head because even if you wanted to the banks would not loan you the money. Lots of people I know flat out lied and now the banks are to blame for giving them the money. Go Figure. If my son asks me to borrow money I trust he will pay it back. *Honesty* not sure where it went but blameing the banks for loaning money to liars does not make sense to me. There were plenty of times when each and every one of us could have done the same thing but did not. I worked on paying my house off and lived within my means no matter how easy the money was to get. The blame game needs to stop and we all need to work together to figure out how to straighten this mess out for our grandkids and future generations,


----------



## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*
"we lost 50,000 factories and at least 2,000, 000 jobs. Explain that if cuttiing their taxes creates jobs."

*
That's easy… there was a giant sucking sound attracting the factories elsewhere… * No factories, No jobs..*.
If the incentive of having factories elsewhere is greater than having them here, *they will NOT invest here..*. and,* if* we reduce their income taxes, *under those conditions, we are throwing the money away. (bad move).
*
The incentive to invest in jobs HERE must be greater than the other alternative(s).

I think we should have Import Taxes being levied on goods manufactured (by our Companies) overseas and being shipped BACK here for resale… We lost the jobs… Now, it's payback time. (That would lower the incentive to use overseas factories!)


----------



## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

bubbyboy: 
*We are out of the Blaming phase…
We are NOW trying to FIX it… regardless of the blame… LOL*


----------



## bubbyboy (Jan 10, 2011)

Yeah I hear that I would just like to figure out how to send some of the ideas here to the White House. Seems to me that these wood working folk are a mighty smart bunch. Maybe someone way smarter than me can figure out how to forward this whole thread to Washington. *LOL* You never know it could happen, anything is possible, I know because I cut wood, usually more than once to get it right. hehehe


----------



## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

In many cases the banks and mortgage companies falsified the docs to get the commission after the fact.

Joe, are you sure you want tariffs? I said that when this first stated as the first step in the recovery. The Rs will never let it happen ;-(( I'm not sure the Ds will either ;-(( Too much corporate money buying Congress.


----------



## bubbyboy (Jan 10, 2011)

Just saw this quote pretty much explains it all.

'Government is like a baby:
An alimentary canal with a
big appetite at one end and
no sense of responsibility
at the other'


----------



## bubbyboy (Jan 10, 2011)

Topa, I had a friend of mine whos brother worked for Home Depot at the time making less than $12.oo hour went to BofA and got a house equity line for a little over 200k no documents. Promptly bought a Deisel Pusher Motor Home and boat and quit making his house payments. Lost his house but now travels the country working odd jobs and living in a motorhome he paid cash for. Something wrong with the integrity in this country. Its all about me and I want it all now screw everybody else, and then the rest of us get to pay for it.


----------



## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*I would just like to figure out how to send some of the ideas here to the White House*

In 1980 there were about 400 lobbyists in Washington, DC. Today there are over 30,000 full time professional lobbyists. Decide what you want to present and make sure you can say it is 2 minutes or less. It might get listened to or read. Any more than that, round file ;-(


----------



## bubbyboy (Jan 10, 2011)

Well if everybody agrees I think that because *MARTIN *has done such a great job here at LJ'S I think we should send him. What do you think guys??


----------



## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*bubbyboy* I have change my attitudes in the last few years about the crooked corps. There is a little part of me that now says, good for him ;-)) He got them before they got him ;-))

I thnk we should all give away our assets, run up the max cc debt and then just die on them ;-))


----------



## bubbyboy (Jan 10, 2011)

Yeah Topa, It sounds good in theory, but I am like you I hate credit card debt, like to make sure I live within my means and then I can sleep at night. It has served me well for many years, but alas it does sound like fun sometimes to just go crazy buying every tool I could ever want and not worry about paying for it. Buy my grandkids anything they want, new cars, games whatever they want. Oh to dream!!


----------



## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

LMAO. I haven't seen much agreement on anything. Over a thousand posts and no concensus on who did it, what they did, why they did it, who is to blame, who should stay, who should go, what should be changed, what should be killed, what new should occur, who new should be elected, etc. etc. etc.

I anxiously await the reading of the creation and finalizing of that all-encompassing fix-it list of recommendations that is Lumberjock Concensus 2011. This should be interesting. Possibly… no, I guarantee it would be a real hoot !

With all due respects to Martin, Can you imagine ? "Hello, I'm Martin Sojka. I am a citizen of Slovakia. I own a woodworking forum called Lumberjocks with 31,000 members… many of whom are United States citizens. Here is a list of suggestions on how you should run the United States.

Another thing. Let's make sure when we "vote the bums out" (and replace them with salt-of-the-earth true Americans that only want what's best for America… but otherwise completely undefined and still at the whim of the populace that elects them) that we leave at least one Rep and one Senator in office for a second term. The page system has been thrown out, so if they're all new they'll spend six months fighting over offices interpreting the rules. Then another six months filling committees and learning about all the current laws and legislation and trying to figure out where the "bums" left off… and where's the bathroom… and has anybody got a pen… and Jesus, Bubba you can't spell worth a ********************… get up and let me write that legislation.

This is funny to me !


----------



## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

I read this in an article on the Motley Fool about Hate. It kind of hits home as being pretty accurate. I see a bit of this right here on LJ's. Take a look in the mirror, shall we ?

*Disliking/Hating Tendency is with us from a very early point in life. We are born with these primitive emotions. The growing popularity of smear campaigns and negative advertisements in American politics, for example, shows that some people just have a natural talent for it-as if they've been working at it since birth. So how does this tendency manifest itself? There are three primary ways:

We ignore the positive virtues in the things or people we dislike.
We dislike people and things that are even associated with the object of our dislike.
We distort the truth, bending reality to conform to our dislikes and hatred.

These past few years have created an environment where it has been really easy to hate. From polarizing politics to the financial crisis and the recession that followed, people have really taken to hating and disliking someone or something. We need to assign blame, so we look for the quickest avenue and let 'er rip.*


----------



## SCR0LL3R (May 28, 2010)

Joy Lyddon said:

*"The Rich get Richer by Investing and getting a good Return… if they think they can get a good return on their Investments, they will hire thus making Jobs. If they feel they cannot get a good return, they will keep their money until such time they think they can!"*

Joe this has been done and it's about the first thing that we should all agree doesn't work. Regardless of the tax rate they pay, if they don't invest their money, they don't earn anything. I don't think they want that.

Tariffs on imports (at least on the cheap labor countries) would go a long way to help. These were done away with as another present to help the rich get richer at the expense of the rest. Initially we don't see it because we get cheaper products to buy… but now we are paying the price.


----------



## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

Most favored nation trade status needs to be removed from countries that do not respect our patent laws, their own population, saftey regulations (like lead paint on kids toys), and purposley devalue their own currency to flood our market with their crap.

As pointed out earlier there are tarrifs but for countries with most favored trade status they are extreemly low.

Personally I have no problem buying something from a country that pays their workers a decent wage and does not pollute the world doing it (Japan, Canada, Germany and the like).


----------



## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

Topa said "In many cases the banks and mortgage companies falsified the docs to get the commission after the fact."

How can you get a commission after the fact? Did they come back to someone and ask them to cut a check? Where was this commission coming from?


----------



## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Well Pat, I am going to agree with you on the need to remove the "...most favored trade status…" from all countries. American Corporations off-shored nearly all of their manufacturing in order to take advantage of this loophole and the only way to reverse this, and bring back jobs to the US, is to remove the favored trade status of such countries.


----------



## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

It doesn't matter who gets elected in the next election. But if America is to survive we will need to cut government drastically and expect no more handouts. The 2 largest handouts are the mortgage interest deduction and student loans. Social security, medicare, medicaid and food stamps will never see the needed cuts because no one has the guts or dourage to cut them, even though 20% of each of them is pure fraud.


----------



## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

Unfortunately to many voters are like Topa. They listen to the sound bits of the largestr demogods and never pay attention to what actually happens.


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

YanktonSD

The mortgage deduction will cause another round of mortgage defaults. When I bought my house 6 years ago I would not have been able to afford my house (in my eyes no the mortgage companies eyes). The mortgage deduction might just be part of what caused the housing bubble though.

Seven years ago I paid 10k in federal income taxes, the very next year I bought my house and I paid 4.5k. Last year I made 45k more a year than the year I bought my house and I still paid less taxes than the year before i bought it.

I am all for simplifying the tax code, reducing the marginal rates and eliminating deductions. I think if we did this we would actually collect more in taxes due to the decreased fraud on deductions. It would also fix politicians "making a mistake" (getting caught) on their taxes.

How are student loans a handout? I paid mine back with interest.


----------



## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

YanktonSD SAID: "Unfortunately to[SIC] many voters are like Topa"

I agree with you about the number of voters like Topa, but find this fact VERY FORTUNATE INDEED.

Topa does take the time to become informed/educated and NOT brain-washed. He got over THAT when he left the republikan party leadership and became a Democrat.


----------



## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

However HorizontalMike is still brainwashed just by the "good side" LOL


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

YanktonSD:
I can agree somewhat with your statement about the next election winner, and I am also all for cutting our fraud in your so called "handouts", but a Carte Blanche cutting off ALL those "entitlements" will create more problems than it fixes. Yes, I agree that these programs should be free of fraud and ONLY given to those who have fully complied with the required certification and denied to those receiving who have nothing to qualify. Stop giving away free money and services to people who have never paid into the system and use it as a scam.

I state my personal case:
I am retired - 3 years ago at 65-1/2. I got cancer and could not continue to work. I had never had a sick day off in my life, when I retired I had a years worth of sick days left. My very meager 401k was put into an IRA which lost 60% of it's value in 10 months, the IRA was there to fund property taxes and insurances plus repairs and replacement in the home - nothing more, no vacations or vehicle purchases etc.. As it stands now, I figure I have enough to get us by for 5 to 6 years, then it's gone.
I rely on my SS check to live on and also pay additional health insurance to reinforce medicare. Cutting ANYTHING from my SS and Medicare will be my downfall, I have only 40% of my savings and live of a budget so tight that my ass squeaks when I walk. After what I thought was making the right decisions about retiring one day and being able to survive have proved to be the most foolish things I have done, and I paid many, many years into a "government insurance" scheme that some people want denied, and the most outrageous thing is that if so, you will not be reimbursed for all those years of premium contributions - Grand Fraud.

There are many in the the same situation as I find myself in and NO cuts should be made for GENUINE recipients. Instead remove all those that don't qualify (premium payment wise) and those who are scamming and abuse the system.
It's simple really, If you paid the premiums, you get the service, if not-bye bye.


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## RZH (Nov 20, 2009)

*Topa said "In many cases the banks and mortgage companies falsified the docs to get the commission after the fact."

How can you get a commission after the fact? Did they come back to someone and ask them to cut a check? Where was this commission coming from?*

The mortgage brokers were paid commissions/fee for preparing the loans (they knew they were committing fraud, just like the borrower) by the banks/investment banks. The prepared loans were aggregated (bundled) by banks and investment banks and they were paid a fee/commissions by the institutions that bought them (bonds).


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

Roger…

I agree with you 200%

I understand your story very well… kinda reminds me of ….

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --- - -
I got these in an email… Just thought we could get something out of them…
- ----- - - - - - - --- - --- - --- - - - ---- - -

*These are possibly the 5 best sentences you'll ever read:*

*1.* You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity.

*2.* What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.

*3.* The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.

*4.* You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it!

*5.* When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that is the beginning of the end of any nation.

*Now, does any of the above Ring a Bell?*


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

That is not getting a commission "after the fact", that is getting a commission.


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## SCR0LL3R (May 28, 2010)

The wealthy have been getting tax breaks… I'm not talking about doctors and lawyers, etc… I mean the really wealthy. It just needs to be put back the way it was before supply side economics starting whittling away at things. I'm not saying that's the only problem because it most certainly isn't. But it is one of the problems. The housing bubble did speed the downfall up dramatically. People taking advantage of social programs does need to be dealt with as well. Increasing duties on imports from countries that don't respect their labor force or environment is very important . Cutting back significantly on military spending would save tons… Stop policing the world.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

patcollins SAID: "However HorizontalMike is still brainwashed just by the "good side" LOL"

Not true. I just choose to give balance against the Right Wing Totalitarianism/Terrorism and Propaganda that has stalled Congress. Time will tell. The G-*no*-P will self destruct shortly or cause Civil War.


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

Sorry Mike, anyone that believes one party is band and the other stands for truth justice and the American way is brainwashed, or just plain stupid. I am pretty sure your not stupid.

George Washington's greatest regret was the rise of political parties during his presidency, they are the scourge of our government.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

Keith:
*
"The wealthy have been getting tax breaks…"

*

*Would you believe me… if I told you* that ANYONE who is paying USA Income Taxes can Invest easily, right NOW, and NEVER have to pay Federal income taxes? ... and in some cases, not even pay State Income Taxes!

... I will wait for your answer… 

*
"Anyone" being Rich, Middle, or Lower Class!
*


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

Roger I agree with you too!


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## SCR0LL3R (May 28, 2010)

I mean taxes on the money that they are making from investments and not investing elsewhere. Eliminating some loopholes that allows them to pull cash out of investments without paying what they used to be charged in the past.(and changing their tax rate so that it's closer to what it was pre-Reagan)

Just because I can can only make 1 billion profit instead of 2 billion this year doesn't mean I'm just not gonna bother.

If investing most of my money further means I pay 50 million in taxes rather than 500 million, I have further encouragement to do that, but if I can pull all my cash out of investments (Cash that was earned selling to the US population) and pay little to no tax on it, and then turn around and spend it in the rest of the world however I please, what's to stop me from taking all that US money and spending it in elsewhere without paying a proper share to the maintenance of this market. Let the middle class worry about that. After all, we're just a few people, The middle class is/was hundreds of millions.

Anytime anybody protests and wants to tax me, I just need to point at the red flag and yell "That sounds like redistribution of wealth and communism is the enemy"


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## SCR0LL3R (May 28, 2010)

You are saying we should allow the rich have even more control over the money because they know how to run a business and we will all benefit. What they really know is how to make money. Be from running a business or by dismantling it. Whichever earns the most over the short term.


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

Keith, do you truely think a buisness pays the tax and doesn't just pass it on to the consumer?


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

Raise the taxes on businesses!!! The only thing it will cost is jobs and higher prices.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*Keith:*
*
"I mean taxes on the money that they are making from investments and not investing elsewhere." 
*

Sorry, I didn't make myself CLEAR… I am talking about investing money and money that is earned from THAT investment is NON-Taxable Federal and State! By anyone… Very simply! No fancy lawyers, etc. required!

*
"You are saying we should the rich have control of the money because they know how to run a business and we will all benefit." 
*

Nope… none of that fancy rich loophole stuff… everyone… rich or poor… can be done right now… Simply!

*Example:*
You, if you pay or are supposed to pay USA Federal & State income taxes, can SIMPLY invest in something *and NEVER pay those income taxes on the earnings from that investment.*

*Would you believe me if I told you that it was possible?*

If it were possible and I showed you how to do it, would you give me 5% of your earnings from the investment?
... a fair fee wouldn't you say?


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## SCR0LL3R (May 28, 2010)

I mean the individual's income tax, not the business'. Raising taxes on the business itself would obviously be detrimental.


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## SCR0LL3R (May 28, 2010)

Joe you aren't understanding what I am saying. I know you don't pay taxes on what you invest, I'm not arguing with you over this… and I'm not suggesting that be changed. I mean the taxes on the money that isn't invested.


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

You know what really sucks??? I earn my money and pay taxes on it, then I decide to invest my money that I have paid taxes on already in a company and you Idiots think that that company should pay more taxes so I make less on my investment and then get taxed on again for investing my money. Maybe I should go blow all my money on stupid stuff and let the government take care of me?


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

Keith:
*
"I mean the taxes on the money that isn't invested." 
*

OK, first of all, before money can be taxed, *it has to be NEW money that is earned!*
Once that New money is reported and taxes are paid, it will never be taxed again because you have already paid!
(unless you die & it's in your Estate… that's another can of worms!)

Now, most people will not just put that money in a hole in the back yard or a mattress and forget about it…

*They will use part of it to live on.*.. and *Invest the rest in something that will earn them MORE Money from it.*

The* NEW* money *earned* on *THAT* investment is now *reported on an income tax return* and possibly, taxes paid on it. *I am talking about TAXABLE MONEY earned… not left-over money that taxes have been paid on already.*

If you are talking about taxing the Cash Balances one has at the end of the year, and every year thereafter, that would NOT be an Income Tax… that would be pure THEFT! I don't think you're thinking that way are you?

Now what?!


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## SCR0LL3R (May 28, 2010)

Yankton, can you read?


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## SCR0LL3R (May 28, 2010)

NO Joe, I'm not talking about re-taxing already taxed money. I am talking about taxing income.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

Yankton:

*"You know what really sucks??? I earn my money and pay taxes on it, then I decide to invest my money that I have paid taxes on already in a company and you Idiots think that that company should pay more taxes so I make less on my investment and then get taxed on again for investing my money. Maybe I should go blow all my money on stupid stuff and let the government take care of me?" 
*

Unfortunately, that is what makes the world go around… LOL

If I told you that you could easily invest and NOT get taxed (Federal & possibly State) on your earnings (earnings on the investment being TAX FREE!), would you be willing to pay me 5% of your earnings?
(a fair rate don't you think?)


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

Keith:

*OK, now that we are talking about NEW Taxable earnings…*

If I told you that *you, or anyone,* could invest part of your NEW taxable earnings AND NOT HAVE TO PAY TAXES ON THE EARNINGS, would you believe me?

And, if you do believe me… and I showed you how you could very simply do it, would you be willing to pay me 5% of your earnings instead of paying TAXES on them (pay me instead)?


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## SCR0LL3R (May 28, 2010)

Not pay taxes on the earnings? I have some possible ideas but please go on if you care to elaborate.

Just be warned 5% of 0 is 0


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

Well then Joe stop telling me to pay more! When I am short on funds I tighten my belt. Government needs to tighten their belt.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

Keith:

Hey! You're in Canada… You don't pay USA Income taxes do you? LOL

It looks like this conversation has been a waste of time… Yes / No? LOL


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

Yankton:
*
"Well then Joe stop telling me to pay more! When I am short on funds I tighten my belt. Government needs to tighten their belt."

*

Yes, I think we all do!

What State are you in?


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## SCR0LL3R (May 28, 2010)

My girlfriend and business partner pays US income tax so half of my household does. We sell our products entirely through US companies. Both Sheila's kids work and live in the US. I could have dual citizenship seeing as my father is a born and raised American. 90% of my family are American citizens currently residing there. I have much interest in the success of the American economy. Not to mention that anything that hurts the American economy is probably going to hurt the Canadian economy as well.

I don't see how trying to convince others of what I consider to be a good course of action is a waste of time. Since I am not a US citizen does that make my ideas automatically null and void?

I figured this would come up eventually. I will probably be chased out of here now. I never hid the fact that I was Canadian.


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## RZH (Nov 20, 2009)

Keith,
You know what 'they' say, "You're with us or you're against us".


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

Keith:
*
"I don't see how trying to convince others of what I consider to be a good course of action is a waste of time. Since I am not a US citizen does that make my ideas automatically null and void?" 
*

*Of course NOT! * It's just that I could NOT show you how to do it… *that's all…
*

*OK! Very good… What State(s) would y'all be using?*
Each State must have it authorized; otherwise, the State is still Taxable for State taxes…
Federal, no problem… will always be NON-Taxable earnings!


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## patron (Apr 2, 2009)

well i live in the state of confusion

the more i read here
the more it continues

i do all i can for the economy

i buy everything retail
i put my money back into the economy
as soon as i have it in my pocket

while everyone is trying to figure ways to make or save money

i'm working on spending it as fast as i can

before it becomes worth even less


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

patcollins SAID: "Sorry Mike, anyone that believes one party is band and the other stands for truth justice and the American way is brainwashed, or just plain stupid. I am pretty sure your not stupid."

Surely not, I'm NOT a Republikan!


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## SCR0LL3R (May 28, 2010)

cr1 I looked that up and found this on the subject:

http://canada.usembassy.gov/consular_services/dual-citizenship.html

and http://www.grasmick.com/citizen.htm#CAN%20I%20BE%20A


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Hey Keith,
*cr1*'s credibility is already taking a beating, so be nice.

http://lumberjocks.com/topics/29924
post #27


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Citizenship - Oh Boy!
I was born and raised in Britain, so British citizenship and nationality was automatic. I came to the US in the 70's with a job offer and complied with ALL rules taxes that every working US citizen has to.
I did not apply for US citizenship for a long while because it would have upset my wonderful parents who had survived WW2 and where hard times followed for many years, they were proud of their survival, and so was I.
When my parents passed, I applied for US citizenship, flew through the immigration process as I probably knew more about the US than they did, and was sworn in by a Federal Judge who had been a close friend for years.

You can hold dual citizenship, but only one in the domicile country. If I choose to vacation in Britain, I can enter as a British subject or as an American visitor. The main difference is that as a visitor you have a length of stay limit. The huge advantage of entering as a UK citizen is that should I become ill on vacation there I would have full advantage of Free Medical.

I am actually very proud to be a citizen of both countries as they support each other and have the same ideals and are the strongest of friends and allies.

For me now, as a US citizen born in the UK, domiciled in the US, I can be considered an American with table manners and a sense of humor.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

OK Keith,

What States would y'all be using?


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## devann (Jan 11, 2011)

You know Roger, with that hat I think we can call you a Texan too.


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## SCR0LL3R (May 28, 2010)

Illinois…


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## patron (Apr 2, 2009)

this is from the net

put the flag of your country
put the name of your country

it is a simple way to fix things

This is THE Australian Flag!

Comment by the initial sender:
I THINK THIS GUY HAS IT ALL COVERED. I COULDN'T SPOT ANYTHING HE LEFT OUT.From Bob Katter
"I am the Labor Party's Worst Nightmare. I am a White, Conservative, Tax-Paying, God fearing Australian. I am a hard working Australian and I work long hours to earn a living.
I believe in God and the freedom of religion, but I don't push it on others. I drive Australian-made cars, and I believe in Australian products and buy them whenever I can.

I believe the money I make belongs to me and not some bloody governmental functionary, Labor/Greens or Liberal, that wants to share it with others who don't work!

I'm in touch with my feelings and I like it that way!

I think owning a home doesn't make you a capitalist; it makes you a smart Australian. I think being a minority does not make you noble or victimized, and does not entitle you to anything. Get over it!

I believe that if you are selling me a Big Mac or any other item, you should do it in English. I believe there should be no other language option.

I believe everyone has a right to pray to his or her God when and where they want to.

My heroes are, fellow Australians like Don Bradman, Steve Waugh, Alan Langer, Slim Dusty, Fred Hollows and the Aussie scientists who invented the bionic ear - missed a few I know.
I don't hate the rich, but hate the way they always find ways to pay less taxes. I don't pity the poor, I hate the way they are always crying that they are hard done by!!

I know wrestling is fake and I don't waste my time watching or arguing about it.

I believe if you don't like the way things are here, go back to where you came from and change your own country!

This is AUSTRALIA….We like it the way it is and more so the way it was…so stop trying to change it to look like some other socialist country! If you were born or legally migrated here and don't like it… you are free to move to any Socialist country that will have you. (And take Julie Gillard and her group with you.) I believe it is time to really clean house, starting with the Lodge, the seat of our biggest problems.

I want to know exactly, where the "Do Gooder's" get their money from, and why are they always part of the problem and not the solution?

Can I get an AMEN on that one?

I also think the cops have the right to pull you over if you're breaking the law, regardless of what race, color or creed you are, but not just because you happen to be an illegal alien and scream that they are "RACISTS PIGS". And, no, I don't mind having my face shown on my driver's license. I think it's good….

I dislike those people standing in the intersections trying to sell me stuff or trying to guilt me into making 'donations' to their cause….Get a job and do your part to support yourself and your family!

I believe that it doesn't take all the intellectuals to raise a child, it takes two parents….

I believe 'illegal' is illegal no matter what the lawyers think!

I believe the Australian flag should be the only ones allowed to be flown in Australia !

If this makes me a BAD Australian, then yes, I'm a BAD Australian. If you are a BAD Australian too, please forward this to everyone you know….

We want our country back!
My Country…..
I hope this offends all illegal aliens.

My great, great, great grandfather watched as his friends died in the Boer War. My grandfather watched and bled as his friends died in World Wars 1&2. My grandfather watched as his friends & brothers died in the Depression of 32. My father watched as his friends died in Korea. I watched as my friends died in Vietnam, East Timor & Desert Storm. Our son's and daughters watched & bled as their friends died in Afghanistan and Iraq .

None of them died for the Afghanistan and Iraq Flag. Every Australian died for the Australian flag.
At a Victorian high school foreign students raised a Middle East flag on a school flag pole. Australian students took it down. Guess who was expelled…the students who took it down.

West Australian high school students were sent home, because they wore T-shirts with the Australian flag printed on them.

Enough is enough.

This message needs to be viewed by every Australian; and every Australian needs to stand up for Australia. We've bent over to appease the Aussie-haters long enough. I'm taking a stand.

I'm standing up because of the hundreds of thousands who died fighting in wars for this country, and for the Australian flag.

And shame on anyone who tries to make this a racist message.

AUSTRALIANS, stop giving away Your RIGHTS !

THIS IS OUR COUNTRY !

This statement DOES NOT mean I'm against immigration !

YOU ARE WELCOME HERE, IN MY COUNTRY, welcome to come legally:

1. Get a sponsor !
2. Learn the LANGUAGE, as immigrants have in the past!
3. Live by OUR rules ! Dress as we Australians Do
4. Get a job !
5. Pay YOUR Taxes !
6. No Social Security until you have earned it and Paid for it !
7. NOW find a place to lay your head !

If you don't want to forward this for fear of offending someone, then YOU'RE PART OF THE PROBLEM !

We've gone so far the other way…bent over backwards not to offend anyone.

Only AUSTRALIANS seem to care when Australian Citizens are being offended !

WAKE UP AUSTRALIA ! ! !

If you do not Pass this on, may your fingers cramp !

Made in AUSTRALIA & DAMN PROUD OF IT!!!!!"

AMEN


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## devann (Jan 11, 2011)

Amen


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*"In many cases the banks and mortgage companies falsified the docs to get the commission after the fact."*

I should have said they modified the documents after the buyers signed. CBS 60 Minutes interviewed industry insiders during their report on mortaage fraud.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

On dual citizenship; I personally know a woman who married a Mexican and lives in Mexico City. Her kids have dual citizenship and vote as WA state residents. I do not know if she became a Mexican citizen as well as American. One of the kids moved to America as an American when he was in his early 20s.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

It won't be long until the right wing extremists are working to cut attorney's fees and college professor's pay in their continuing efforts to rein in the middle class and cut costs. When they cry "foul" there will be no one to stand with them. Everyone else who has lost their pay and benefits will be saying it is about time!! It was the attorneys and college profs who sided with the corporate elite calling for lower wages and eliminating benefits for the peons who keep the country running.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Citizenship:
Anyone who applies for US citizenship and is suitable for consideration and fills ALL the requirements are welcome.
Alien visitors who adhere to their visa obligations are most welcome.
However:
Anyone who applies and receives US citizenship by fraud - like living in this country illegally for years should be deported and stripped of illegally gained citizenship immediately.
Visitors who exceed their visa stay times (although illness must be a consideration) should have an additional itinerary added - a stop over to Gitmo on their way home.

Our REAL Citizens are our most precious things we have, visitors who respect our laws are most welcome, anyone else we don't need.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

AMEN Roger.


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

Topa

Who wouldnt want to cut attorney's fees? All of these class action lawsuits the people that actually get harmed get $1 each but the attorneys get rich off them.

College professors not so much, but it depends on their field. Engineering professors make about what an engineer makes at the same tenure. Sociology professors make a lot more than they would working at McDonalds after the same amount of years.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

Keith,

I sent you some PM's…


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

The business round table started by going after the trade unions in the early 80s. They have been successful dropping 1/3 of the middle class into poverty. The current attack is on civil service employees. The "professions" will be next.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*
How does one invest and get a Federal TAXFREE Return on the Investment?
... and if a State is covered, State TAXFREE too!

*

*Simple:*
Invest, by buying shares, in Municipal Bonds, and get a TAXFREE return on the Monthly Dividends paid to you!

And ANYONE can do it… Easily… NOT just the Rich!

*If anyone wants more details, let me know…*

I think the Rich really LIKE this… it's a great way to keep some of the money they worked hard for!

And it's all because the Government wants to give an incentive for investing in Municipal Bonds; therefore, they made them NONTAXABLE…

Now, if you SELL the shares at a profit, you pay Capital Gains… else a Cap. LOSS…

As a general rule, the prices to not change WILDLY… staying pretty constant…

I have had symbol NCA for years… I elect to have the monthly dividends buy more shares… as a result, the dividend gets higher and higher as the number of shares increase… I have tripled my first investment this way… I have never SOLD any of it…


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Morningstar listed muni bonds as one of the riskiest investments in bonds about a year ago due to the collapse of the real estate markets and cash crisis in many local governments.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*TopamaxSurvivor:*

*Nuveen is the Best of the BEST.*.. as conservative and as SAFE as you can get it!


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

tell Morningstar, see if they believe it?


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

I don't care what Morningstar thinks… I know what Nuveen is and how they work.

Now, if Calif. ever Defaulted and stopped paying their main commitments, a lot more than Muni Funds would be crap.

I would like to now what is wrong with Nuveen… They are simply the best (that means safest too)...


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

IMO, Morningstar is the last source of credible analysis on financial matters. All the others have proven themselves to be biased or right out owned by people like Murdoch. Even back in teh 90s, Morningstar was the only source not invited to press conferences by the funds and companies. The price one pays for telling the truth. That was changed by the law requiring all financial data to be released to the public at the same time. Prior to the mortgage melt down, the major rating companies were putting out what the issuing companies told them without independent analysis. Nuveen may be tops, I know nothing about them. If Eliot Spitzer did not have any issues with them, that is a good start ;-))


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