# Why woodworking pays so little?



## Dick_Cheney (Sep 29, 2016)

Around here it is pretty easy to find an office job that pays 150k+ a year and all you do is hitting some keys on the keyboard and moving the mouse forth and back. I can attest that making a good piece of furniture takes at least no less experience than writing some stupid iphone application however very few do it for living as it is difficult to live on the income. At the sams time it is difficult to find a decent piece of furniture. Mostly smelly patlricle board stuff that falls apart on the third day, sooner in ghe presence of moisture.


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## DirtyMike (Dec 6, 2015)

is that you Nightguy?


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## joey502 (Mar 30, 2014)

If you are making 150k in an office you are probably not using a mouse. You must be the good looking one, as is the case for me.

There are more people using apps than buying quality furniture. That makes the apps more valuable than the skills everyone here have been working years to perfect. It does not make the app developer's skills better or worse, just more valuable in an open market.

Unfortunately, more consumers want cheap furniture than well built and well designed furniture. Our comsumer based economy does not allow for the market to be filled with quality. The volume of "stuff" Americans want is not possible is quality is placed above quantity.


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## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

People think its easy. Similar bulk products manufactured on a fast line cost less to make than the cost of my raw materials. No way to compete on price. Instead, compete on 'hand made quality'. There is always a market for quality. Exploit it. Don't make *ANYTHING* out of #2 common pine or pallet scraps.

Do the best you know how and always try to improve your quality, reduce operations, and minimize materials. Rule of thumb is that increasing production 10X will drive down costs ny half.

M


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## JADobson (Aug 14, 2012)

If you can take home 150k by clicking a few buttons and moving a mouse around the screen what are doing even thinking about woodworking as a pro. Click your buttons are build a dream shop. You'll have more fun.


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## robscastle (May 13, 2012)

you get paid for woodworking?


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

The world has changed and started changing a long time ago.

It started with the industrial revolution and has evolved to what it is today: everything made in China as cheaply as possible so we can have a higher standard of living by throwing it out an buying another one.

I taught all of my boys how to do manual labor, carpentry and build things. No matter what they do in life, it will be a benefit to them.


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## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

I have been searching and have not found the $150 K job for just clicking a mouse.

Anyone notice someone stirring the pot…kind of like a DKV copycat.


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## OggieOglethorpe (Aug 15, 2012)




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## JoeinGa (Nov 26, 2012)

Can you say "Mass produced in Asia"? Yep, I knew you could.

And that's the reason no one wants to pay the "small-time-custom builder" for his work / services.


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## Jon_H (Jun 21, 2016)

It's possible to make $150k a year from woodworking. Even more. It takes a damn lot of hard work. It requires taking risk. It requires sacrifice. It requires a ton of experience built up over many years. It takes a multitude of skills above and beyond the technical skills of designing and building high quality furniture.

I'm fortunate enough to be one of those that makes about $150k "hitting some keys on the keyboard and moving the mouse forth and back". I didn't drop out of my mother's womb with skills that are worth $150k a year. I didn't luck into creating some trendy iPhone app. To an outsider, my job looks easy. However, anyone that spends more than a minute or two learning what I actually do claim they couldn't/wouldn't do it for twice the price. I got here through a damn lot of hard work, taking risks, making sacrifices, a ton of experience built up over many years, and developing skills other than the technical skills of hitting some keys on the keyboard and moving the mouse forth and back.

There are many men and women out there making a good living from just woodworking. Quite a number of them making the holy grail of $150k per year or more. Some of them are famous, most are not. Ask any of them how they got there and none of them will answer "by grousing about how unfair life is on an online forum…"


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## sawdustdad (Dec 23, 2015)

Woodworking doesn't pay because everybody thinks, "I can build that myself" and save the money. You need to specialize in commercial/business work. Like conference room tables, receptionist desks, etc. Or, high-end (think mansion) custom interiors (cabinets/paneling, etc). You'll need enough work to keep several people busy to clear $150k/yr for yourself. Can be done, but not making one-off furniture for friends.


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## ste6168 (Mar 12, 2015)

It's a great time to be alive.


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## quasarwutwut (Sep 28, 2016)

If anyone would like to give me $150k for looking pretty please IM me. I just need me a few weeks' notice to get some hipper clothes and get in better shape. Also maybe facial surgery. Probably hair restoration. And my posture's terrible, I need to do something about that. So yeah, a couple weeks, then if you just direct-deposit the money that would be helpful.


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## gargey (Apr 11, 2016)

-no barriers to entry

-nothing is proprietary

-extremely low start-up capital required

-not scalable

=

low profit


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

I see a great business plan. For a one-time fee of $75,000 I will let people in on the secret that they could easily be making $150,000 a year.

Please do not try to steal my idea.


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

From my experience, you basically get out what you put in.
Takes a lot of work and a lot of time building your reputation.


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## MikeUT (Sep 5, 2014)

There was a post a few months ago where a lady was complaining for not being paid more than $10 an hour at her entry level job at a cabinet maker. To me, this complaint is not far off. If there were plenty of jobs 'clicking a mouse' where you could earn 150k a year everyone would make 150k a year. I'm in that range and I can demonstrate, on paper, how I bring in 250% of my income to my company. If a person brings in a lot of money for a company, they make a lot of money. The only place in which that isn't a reality is in government/bureaucratic jobs and corporate pseudo-government jobs. In most companies, if you aren't pulling your weight, you won't be around for long.

A one-man woodworking company is going to have a hard time making 150k because it would be difficult to single-handedly produce enough to net that type of profit. I assure you that if you are good enough you will have no shortage of people that appreciate craftsmanship and quality enough to spend thousands instead of hundreds on Ikea garbage. But you can't just pick up some poplar, cut it out on your dewalt jobsite table saw, screw together a desk, and slap a 'custom' price tag on it. If you don't have the skills you won't make the money. You can either work through the hard times and build a business while your skills improve or you can go get one of those easy mouse clicking jobs.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

As others mention - - the perception is that it is easy (or that we have some unique source of cheap wood) because we get asked to do something that people saw at Walmart… and think we can somehow knock it out in solid wood cheaper than the Sauder particleboard version.

Also - people don't keep furniture - - not so much that we are a disposable society (which we are) but people move often and/or redecorate… so they want the latest "Look" and don't want to pack and ship.
So they get rid of their stuff and buy new for the next home/apartment.

In that atmosphere - - Lasting Quality is not relevant to them as they plan to 'garage sale it' for pennies on the dollar within a short time.


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

GULP….. I think we all swallowed the bait.

15 posts in 4 days + Elvis has left the building.


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## robscastle (May 13, 2012)

Anyone notice someone stirring the pot…kind of like a DKV copycat.

- Redoak49
[/QUOTE]

I sure did failed the basic test when I read the blog
No home
No Projects
No Blogs
No friends
Just another one of the hunderds of "members" on this site that never make anything never contribute anything never socalise just a wandering gypsy preying on others.

Anyway on a more positive note :
Anybody know where Stefang is?


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Norway


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## Firewood (Dec 4, 2013)

I think another reason people aren't willing to spend the money needed for high quality pieces is because so many people are trending toward "change". They want to change the look of the room so they don't invest in furniture like people used to. It is another casualty of our throw-away world. Sad, but that's the world we live in today.


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## robscastle (May 13, 2012)

Oh your such a funny man Bandit571….


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## clin (Sep 3, 2015)

Supply and demand. Simply as that.

And referring to programming, as simply hitting some keys and moving a mouse around, is a pretty silly. By that measure, fine wood working is just beating on a log with a rock.

As to why people buy more "junk" today than generations ago, in part mass-produced products simply did not exist. There was no low-cost/quality version of it. Plus our dollars compete for a lot more things.

100 years ago, we didn't have microwave ovens, TVs, computers, all manner of electric appliances, cell phone bills, heck electric bills. Most people don't want to spend 3-months pay on a dining room set. They'd rather have the latest iPhone. Fine by me, it's a free country.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Clin - I think you nailed it - people have kids, change out furniture… try to keep up with 200 channels + High Speed Gigablast Internet.
Cable/Internet/Phone bundle from Cox is 200/month

Teenagers with cellphones

Think also that "throw away" furniture is not as awful as many think. Especially starting out, and needing to furnish a whole house in one shot - - you replace some of the cheap junk with better stuff through the years, but we have an Ikea Bedframe still going strong since 1999.

So there is an "if it isn't broken - - why replace it"? aspect to it, with all the other competition for dollars, we tend to look at that stuff that is still functioning, and spend money where it seems to be needed more immediately.


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## Cooler (Feb 3, 2016)

> -no barriers to entry
> 
> -nothing is proprietary
> 
> ...


You can make money, and it can be scalable. But it quickly becomes "manufacturing". You can easily teach someone how to perform a single task. Teach ten people ten different tasks and you have the equivalent of 10 qualified woodworkers. So it can be scalable.

I could teach someone how to use a dovetail fixture to make through dovetails in an hour and I would observe them for most of the day to make sure they don't pick up bad habits.

I could buy two dovetail fixtures, one for the pins and one for the tails. And two routers, one for the pins and one for the tails.

I could make a drilling fixture that assures that the handles on the drawers are properly placed.

But it has to be a product that is one that will be made over and over again.. And will be bought in large quantities.

If you pick a product that sells for $75.00 and has a gross profit of $50.00, you need to sell about 5,000 for the year to make $150,000.00.

So the hard parts are finding the right product, and finding a way to sell it in quantity.

Getting it made is not difficult.

Doing this for one-off pieces will be very limiting however.


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## HowardInToronto (Sep 27, 2013)

I'm not quite sure what the OP is getting at. Mostly it looks like complaints. Not offering any solutions. And not even asking a question. Looks like an attempt to agitate.

Some replies offered deep and practical insight into how to create a good living doing woodworking.

My advice is not to think of products. Instead, think of markets. Study those markets. Learn their desires. Their itches. Their aches. Their desires. Then get what they want to them.

That'll be the start of creating a solid living doing something you care about. It'll probably include more than a few twists and turns along the way.

But if you are doing it right, you can do it making kitchen cabinets, travel cases for pool cue aficionados and anything in between after you learn about a market.

Howard


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## JAAune (Jan 22, 2012)

> -no barriers to entry
> 
> -nothing is proprietary
> 
> ...


Going for a scalable, mass-produced product is certainly the easiest way to clear 150k/year. However, it is very possible to pull off a similar income doing custom or semi-custom. The key is to develop a signature style that permits reuse of techniques and details that can be standardized. Once the client base is there it's just a matter of creating a super organized and efficient workshop so projects can be moved through creation without delays from head-scratching or tool-hunting.

Think about custom woodworking and why it takes so long. There's usually about 15 minutes of prep time for every 1 minute cut. Find ways to eliminate that prep time and profits will shoot up.

For me one of the biggest boosts to my income comes from having a laser engraver. I'm always sending templates and jig parts to the laser so I can get back to the actual project. I used to spend days building specialized fixtures that would get pitched at the end of a project.

Now many people will talk about the need for more tools and a bigger shop but this can be a double-edged sword. More stuff and bigger rooms will result in a lot more time spent walking around unless the organization is impeccable. Nobody pays a woodworker to stroll.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

> GULP….. I think we all swallowed the bait.
> 15 posts in 4 days + Elvis has left the building.
> - rwe2156


Jeeuuu… betcha! ;-)

Don't forget to wash up after this blog is over. Don't want anyone catching anything…


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

What is the difference how this thread started? There has been interesting conversation!

Used to be a time on Lj's when people disagreed it led to a good discussion. 
Now a days it only leads to arguments.


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## Mosquito (Feb 15, 2012)

^ that

Personally, I don't make $150k a year, and I don't do woodworking for money.

I punch keys and move the mouse about for a living, but like others have stated, I've not yet had the opportunity of time to build my skills to a point where they're worth $150k in my market.

The other thing, is… the market. I could live quite comfortably on $150k a year here in MN. If I were to move to New York (city), LA, San Francisco, etc $150k/year? Not quite as cushy anymore… at least if you want a place to live, I suspect.


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## DustyM (May 16, 2016)

If you're talking about doing anything trade-related and being self-employed, I would imagine that the success stories are much less common than the failures. My dad was a painting contractor for over 40 years. He had ups and downs, but at one point had a crew of guys, 2 commercial vans, and was painting homes for the big expos, easily clearing 6 figures in the early 90's. After a failed attempt to open a paint store after a back injury, it never picked up the way it used to be, even though his word of mouth was great. By the time he passed, he was so broke that his home (same one for 23 years) had been refinanced so many times that it went to short-sale.

Not telling anyone this to bum them out, but just to show that my experience has given me a LOT of respect for anybody with the guts to strike out on their own, regardless of the field. As for me, I'm plenty happy working for someone who can absorb all the risk.


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## robscastle (May 13, 2012)

Cough, cough, splutter splutter!!


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## mike02130 (Jul 23, 2016)




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## gargey (Apr 11, 2016)

> You can make money, and it can be scalable….You can easily teach someone how to perform a single task. Teach ten people ten different tasks and you have the equivalent of 10 qualified woodworkers. So it can be scalable.


You're kind of making my point… That is not making money by woodworking. That is making money running a business. Your own woodworking is not scalable.


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## Cooler (Feb 3, 2016)

> You can make money, and it can be scalable….You can easily teach someone how to perform a single task. Teach ten people ten different tasks and you have the equivalent of 10 qualified woodworkers. So it can be scalable.
> 
> You re kind of making my point… That is not making money by woodworking. That is making money running a business. Your own woodworking is not scalable.
> 
> - gargey


I see there are companies that make drawer boxes custom. If I had enough customers for that I could make a handsome living just making drawer boxes.

After cutting the blanks to size I could produce about 60 boxes per hour. If I charged $5.00 per box (labor) that is $300.00 per hour for the dovetail, but add the time it takes to cut the blanks you are down to about $250.00 per hour. Or about 600 hours to make $150,000.00.

But as a "wood working artist" this is no different from other artist. A few musicians make good money, a lot of bar bands just break even.

A few artists make good money. My cousin has been an artist for about 45 years. In the last 5 years he has been very successful. He is doing one of the art installations in the rebuilt 9/11 buildings.

But for years he has worked as a art professor at a college, and scheduled his art around that.

I imagine that Krenov made good money.

But the fact is most people don't consider contemporary furniture as art, they think of it as something you sit on, work at, dine off, or store in.

I can imagine that if you were the world's finest egg decorator you would not make much money. People don't think of egg decorating as an art form. And yet it requires great skill to do these designs.

https://www.google.com/search?q=decorated+eggs&rlz=1C1RXDB_enUS585US585&espv=2&biw=1366&bih=662&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjW7Pno5cjPAhWCOSYKHRjvCaAQ_AUIBigB#imgrc=_


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## Snipes (Apr 3, 2012)

Cooler do you have to finish these boxes? What about machinery, electricity, blades, glue etc. 60 per hour,? thats a lot of boxes!! You should make a video of this, be a fun watch.


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## Ocelot (Mar 6, 2011)

The idea that one person can have all the skills from saw-milling to turning to marquetry to sales and finance is a great idea. There are a few of these supermen around, but only a few. We are privileged to have a couple of them posting on LJ, but they are not necessarily making a living at it.

Mechanization and division of labor are fundamental to prosperity.

My grandfather farmed by plowing with a mule. Today, there are 60' wide plows pulled by massive tractors - guided by GPS. A small crew can produce food for tens or hundreds of thousands. I don't want to go back to men walking behind a mule. No matter how skilled you were at mule handling, you could never make a living that way today - even growing high-value crops like cotton.

Woodworking is a similar situation. It's a hobby, like gardening.


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## Cooler (Feb 3, 2016)

> Cooler do you have to finish these boxes? What about machinery, electricity, blades, glue etc. 60 per hour,? thats a lot of boxes!! You should make a video of this, be a fun watch.
> 
> - Snipes


I linked the video to show the production rate. Pre-finished boards. They would ship flat and be glued up on site.

I've seen KD cabinets with that kind of dovetail construction in the drawers. My friend has had me re-glue several when the cabinet installer assembled the drawers with hot glue.

I did see a TV show where the cabinet guy was assembling dovetailed drawers with a pin nailer and no glue.

But the point is a $8,000.00 or $12,000.00 investment would get you that level of automation. You would have to get enough wholesale accounts to keep it busy. But 600 hours would make $150,000.00.

At $5.00 per box the machine has a capacity to produce $921,600.00 in revenue.

I cannot imagine that a custom cabinet maker can produce a drawer for $5.00 in labor. And volume purchases of material will make it cost-effective for a custom cabinet maker to buy the boxes and concentrate on the custom cabinets.

But I agree that this is more like manufacturing than woodworking. But most woodworking is more like craftsmanship than art. Elevate your woodworking to an art-form and you will make money.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Does it involve two or more customers? The check is in the mail.



> I see a great business plan. For a one-time fee of $75,000 I will let people in on the secret that they could easily be making $150,000 a year.
> 
> Please do not try to steal my idea.
> 
> - ChuckV


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

The obvious differences between the apps and woodworking products are: 1) Even to mass produce Ikea type garbage, it takes materials, but for an app, whether selling one or ten million, once produced, all the materials have been spent. After that, it's just a matter of hitting a key and sending an email.

For me to make sixty thousand on a kitchen, I'll have to spend a lot of hours in the shop working on cabinets. Then, I'll have to spend many more on the actual kitchen to install granite, install cabinets, lay floor….. Then, to turn that sixty into six hundred, I have to do ten times the work.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

As to making one fifty a year doing woodwork, it's done every day. I note many of the guys doing it have a lot of college behind them. That is, they run their businesses a certain way and it's more a love for making a living than a love of actually having produced something by their own hands.

I took the handyman approach. That meant I had to rebuild wood fences and decks one day, pressure wash them [or a sidewalk] the next, then go back to the shop and build some cabinets on another. As noted below, diversity was my friend and allowed me to fill times slots that, otherwise, would have been empty.

To pull off the aforementioned diversity, I had (have) a shop that pales what all but a rare few handymen possess. It includes a bay for storing HVLP's, texture machines, pressure washers and materials that would get in the way of woodworking. Obviously, that translates to something more than going to a big box and buying a few battery operated, yellow or blue tools. However, it means to things: 1) I get to justify a lot of toys, uh, tools; and, 2) I can grind wood, granite or ground and, sometimes, it turns into something people want, whether a cabinet, a sign, a clock, a table, a…..


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## jeffswildwood (Dec 26, 2012)

$150,000.00 a year woodworking? I would be happy with 150.00 a year.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

> I don t want to go back to men walking behind a mule. No matter how skilled you were at mule handling, you could never make a living that way today - even growing high-value crops like cotton.
> 
> - Ocelot


You have to have the right crop/customer… and live in Colorado???

So it also is with woodworking - - - For the average Joe - it is tough.

But if you were like Maloof - getting 40grand for each chair, you could do OK.
But very few folks are that connected.
Many of the well known designers teach in addition to creating. Michael Fortune, David Marks, and many others do more than individual project sales to make a living.

Get 10 people to take a 5 day class for 500 bucks each - - once a month, and make 60K from teaching.

Helps cover overhead/tooling and gaps between projects where revenue gets tight.


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## mike02130 (Jul 23, 2016)

Q,
What's the difference between a woodworker and a pizza?

A, 
A pizza can feed a family of four.


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## robscastle (May 13, 2012)




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