# Legacy Woodworking



## skleonard

I really hope someone out there can offer some advice on the company Legacy Woodworking Machinery.

I'm about to make the biggest purchase of my shop, save for the shop itself. A massive 4×8' Renegade 5-axis machine upwards of $75k. Among other reasons, I love how solid it looks, and the cnc woodturning station for offering turned products would be a great addition to the shop to compliment our tables.

My biggest holdup is the utter lack of recent information I've been able to find about the company and their lack of post-purchase customer support. I see some negative experiences from 10 years ago, followed up by cases where the company ultimately made it right in the end. As a production shop I can't afford the downtime and arguing with CS or waiting for callbacks. Were these cases of a young company and growing pains? Or do they still struggle with CS issues?

Hope someone can shed some light with recent experiences, or else I'll have to look elsewhere. In the end, customer support matters more than the equipment itself. I'll trade off features for top service anyday.


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## HokieKen

I can't speak to it personally but, a couple of years ago, I went to buy a bandsaw from a guy off CL and he had just gotten a smaller 5-axis legacy set up and running and it was impressive. But, he said that when he was looking into upgrading to the Legacy that he had called and they had scheduled a demo at a shop nearby and one of their reps met him there and the shop owner agreed to let them demo the machine for the possible customer. And when he was setting his up in his basement shop, he said they offered a lot of assistance.

So, I can't give you any solid information but that's just what was given to me second-hand by someone who was exceptionally happy with their CS.


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## CaptainKlutz

Hmm,
Know nothing about Legacy Woodworking Machinery (LMC). Let me see what i can learn and share:

LMC is located in Springville, UT. Springville used to be a small town in middle of no where. Springville nothing more than urban sprawl from Salt Lake. It's just south of Orem/Provo, which has been the home of new technology in Utah for many years (including NASA Rocket tech for Thiokol on 60's). They will have decent access to materials and labor needed to make machines. The area is super majority Mormon religion, which is both good and bad. They tend to be very private in releasing business information, but the longer they have been in business, the harder they try to be honest to defend their reputation (you won't see anything bad online if they can help it - control freaks IME). Shipping costs and customer support costs from SLC area are higher than many other areas of US. This is due to lower overall population, distance to raw materials, and winter travel difficulties; that make cost of business 10-15% more expensive on average. Prior to moving into the Springville mfg location, LMC was located in Provo; which is only a few miles up the road. Which means they have roots, and potentially a stable experienced work force.

Legacy Woodworking Machinery (LMC) is a division of Phantom Engineering, Inc. There are no BBB complaints, and but also no business reviews. LMC is not registered with Dunn & Bradstreet; which just means they are private held and privately financed. LMC started business in 1991 and have been making tools for 28 years. LMC has a discontinuous, almost cloudy product history. 
LMC started as a custom wood working machinery business, which morphed into making the Legacy Ornamental Mills. The Ornamental mills were sold in many flavors from 1990-2012. Somewhere around 2010-2013 they ceased production of mills and started selling only CNC tools. History is hidden online on transition between product lines. They no longer support the Ornamental mills, much to the dismay of the owners.

The current slick looking web site is much better than the old LMC site. It also points to legacy customer forum, not shown on the new site? The site also shows older model CNC tools they sell/sold. A good sanity check on customer support is to inquire which of these old machines are still supported?

This clouded equipment past and support history, does raise some concerns for support of new equipment? 
If buying a new tool for production environment, be sure to get in writing a statement on duration of product support or anticipated product lifetime. Last thing you want to do is buy a tool that has been made for 5 years, and end of life is only a couple years away. If they won't offer a 5-7 year parts and service guarantee, then plan accordingly or don't buy it. 
Getting > 7yr life on any computer driven machine tool is difficult. PC based tool's are generally considered a mid-term business investment with max 5-7 year lifetime, before new technology forces an upgrade to due higher cost of replacement parts, or durability of consumer grade components.

LMC claims to have shipped 18,000 machines. Beware of marketing BS. How many of those are CNC tools just like what you want to buy? That is the number that counts. If it's < few hundred, be wary. Some machine configurations are more prone to support challenges. Be sure to nail down history and support on YOUR tool config, not the brand overall.

Generally. If looking to invest into equipment from any small business, it's considered prudent to spend up to 10% of the purchase cost on due diligence before purchase. For the cloudy history of LMC support, it would be mandatory (IMHO). What is due diligence?
One (or more) visits to factory, machine demonstration using MY intended products designs before order placement, and interview collecting documentation on the financial health of company. Would never order semi-custom equipment based on mfg specifications. Be sure to write your requirements on quote and PO paperwork, and get formal/written PO acceptance. Your quote should include machine specs, delivery schedule, training schedule/location, tech support schedule/location, and product life cycle to name a few things. Once the equipment is ready for shipment, would also suggest on site buy off making your parts to ensure it works before it leave the factory. 
For small biz, writing an equipment specification and preforming due diligence is a lot of work; but usually prevents surprises down the road. It's also how the big companies do it, before they spend millions on new machines.

Hope this helps.

You can expect my bill for equipment purchasing consultation in the mail very soon. 
FWIW - I have designed, built, purchased custom mfg equipment for over 30 years world wide. Let me know if you want to purchase additional consulting services via PM.

Best Luck with your business.


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## DS

No direct experience with the Legacy, but, I've heard from a few folks who have the machines and I studied them for a while when exploring a new purchase myself. 
The Legacy machines themselves are fairly well built. They are a smaller company so service can be hit or miss. YMMV

To be fair, this really isn't a typical 5-axis machine. It has a rotary 4th axis that can raise the tailstock (5th axis?) to make tapered legs.
Usually, a 5-axis machine has a 2-axis wrist-style aggregate head that allows for making complex 3D parts like chair parts, etc.

Turning with this machine relies on special router bit profiles that speed up the process (see Magnate Router bits available on Amazon)

Complex rotary carving is *not* what they intended this machine to do, unless they can integrate with some serious 3D modeling software that is CAM aware and knows how to make code for your machine. 
(Find out if they offer post-processor integration for some of the more popular CAD/CAM programs out there that you might be interested in.)

For me, the software would be the make or break point on a sale of a 5-axis machine. Earlier versions of the Legacy machines had fairly crude software - some even just using excel spreadsheets to generate g-code. (Conversational CAM?) While that may simplify making of basic turnings, IMHO, it falls short of realizing the full potential of a 5-axis machine.

So many folks get the extra axis' but fail to get the software tools to properly and efficiently use them.
This would be (was) a deal breaker for me. Just saying.


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## skleonard

Well, I'm impressed. That's more information on Legacy in a few replies than I've seen across all of the internet in the last 15 years.

CaptainKlutz, a thousand thanks for the research and sharing it here. I'm certain the bill will be worth it! You've given me a great deal to think about. I've reached out to John at Legacy for some contact info on current Renegade CNC owners. So far they've only proposed I talk to the nearest business owner (Beaumont, TX) but he has a smaller, more common one of their machines-the Maverick. You make a great point to ensure the conversations we have is specific to the model that I'm purchasing. Especially since it's such a new product to their lineup.

DS, thanks for your comments. I understood the machine is marketed as a 5-axis, but really isn't. However for what I'm looking to generate in product and volume out of my shop, I think it should fit my needs. The software is another concern of mine. I have an extensive background in programming (SCADA systems, PLC's and other industrial machines) but zero with CNC-specific technology. I'm confident I have the aptitude to learn quickly, but not naive enough to think it'll happen overnight. That's another reason I'm banking on someone with a stellar customer support system.

I'll be sure to update the thread as I continue researching and get closer to the purchase-whatever it ends up being. I'd like to have the CNC up and running by the start of 2Q.


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## CaptainKlutz

+1 DS CNC software makes/breaks a tool.

IMHO - Almost any monkey with couple tools and parts catalog can make a cnc tool these days. 
Even Amazon sells the parts.



> I have an extensive background in programming (SCADA systems, PLC s and other industrial machines) but zero with CNC-specific technology.
> - skleonard


Lol, as another who has extensive PLC and standard language programming experience, let me share a tip on CNC programming. 
> It looks easy, but devil IS in the software details!

Actual machine  'G' codes are sort of like dealing with PLC and ladder logic; ANTIQUES! 
I only know as I learned G-code on industrial robots back in late 70's, and they haven't change much since then. Forget out fancy point and click environments developed for new SCADA tools, solving difficult G-code issues can be a notepad or excel exercise. :-(

Many hassles with CNC is getting movement code into machine from CAD drawing(s) software. IE program to program communication with proper format, where you don't own the raw software for either to customize it.

Another challenge is how companies implement axis control beyond standard 3 axis control in the standard. As DS pointed out, definition of 4th/5th axis will make G-codes 'special'. And 'special' always means more work, and more details to get right. 'Special' also becomes a PIA, unless the company making the machine has large enough user base to ensure problems get resolved quickly and results are easy for equipment owners.

One hassle sometimes find is that the post processing must be done on the actual PC connected to the tool, not a stand alone PC. This ties up your valuable resource, when it should be making money.

Bottom line: Software is one of the most important parts of any CNC tool. Need to dive into software details, and ask existing users about time required to get code to machine and the tools they use that work.

Best Luck.


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## DanKrager

There is a dirth of current information about the now discontinued machines. Yes, owners manuals can be found, but miscellaneous questions and parts exchange is not readily available. The google group appears to be inactive because I've requested to join and there has been no response. Yet. The last posts I can see are old.

Would it be out of line to start posting such items here? The title is good for searching.

DanK


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## DanKrager

OK, here's the first item. It's one of the originals I think.

DanK


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## azwoodworker

I have been looking at this machine for some time. Very few are for resale and when they are the sale is not far from the original cost. I have not looked into it much but certainly a cool-looking potential.

Reading all your points shows you guys are on a much higher level of investigation and precaution. Learned a lot reading the post. Thanks


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## Dark_Lightning

I bought a 900 version mill many years ago, and ended up selling it after buying gears that were made by a person in the Legacy Support Group, not from Legacy. They appear to move onto the next version and drop support of the older version. Legacy Machine is cordially invited to come and differ with me.


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## DanKrager

Yes, Legacy Machine abandons their older models and now all but a history of models and a few manuals has been removed from their site. No parts, nothing. That's why I'm pushing to make this site a central store for knowledge and parts exchange.

Does anyone know the official method of carriage stop for X axis on the REVO mill? When I got the machine, the previous owner had used a 3/8"-16 threaded rod with plastic handle to wedge the carriage upward and the drag from the pressure of the rod appeared to lock the carriage sufficiently. But it scores the aluminum extrusion unacceptably. The Y axis lock is much more effective and is shown in the manual, poorly but shown.

DanK


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## DanKrager

The most active group of Legacy owners is a Google group.
DanK.


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