# Is this a safe practice for dados?



## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

I was watching a video today and the craftsman was cutting a dado using the tablesaw fence as a guide for his
cut.

From misc pics
It sure looks like a kickback situation. 
I have never, ever done this and always used a miter guide or router in a guide.
With so many newbies entering woodworking I though it appropriate to caution anyone trying to duplicate this method.

Bob


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## mot (May 8, 2007)

It looks like a really bad idea. Not only will there be a kickback if his left hand pushes a smidge harder than his right, but when the kickback happens, the blade is going to eat his right hand. I just had a patient that did the very same thing in a cabinet maker apprentice program. Very ugly injury.


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## SCOTSMAN (Aug 1, 2008)

He shouldn't do this or show it being done.He should use a mitre gauge ion the slot with a fence very poor standards to show especially newcomers.I have a book in my house where a famous American woodworker is seen putting little 2 " pieces of wood through the bench saw using his hands and nothing else , so it just shows you.The book sellers // video organizers , ought to be more careful, and a warning that woodworking can be dangerous in the front of the book is not good enough .Thanks for briniging this to our aTTENTion Alistair


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## scottz (Oct 15, 2008)

That looks familar - what video is it?

I saw something very similar recently and I remembered not feeling great about it.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

How does stuff like this get out in public??? Looks like what-not-to-do video!


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## NY_Rocking_Chairs (Jul 20, 2008)

If the intent is to cut the dado in the same place on all boards…what I have seen done is to clamp a piece of wood to the fence, but it ends before the piece being cut hits the dado. So you still use the mitre guage in the slot as Scotsman said and just push it against the temporary fence to get it aligned and then run it over the dado.

Or else use a sled where he could mount a block to simulate the fence position.

The idea of passing my hand over top of anything spinning at 1750+RPMs makes me very nervous.


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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

I kind of hate to tell you all this but if you want to see the entire video go here

These folks are generally pretty reliable so I am assuming this one must have just slipped by.

Bob


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## Tikka (May 14, 2007)

A very good demonstration on how not to do it and how to cause a major accident. Definitely would use a mitre gauge or sledge, as the cutting width is narrower than the length of the board.


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## Tikka (May 14, 2007)

Thanks for the link Bob - At least he used a push block on the final pieces, I guess he did not want to spoil the finish of the wood with bits of Blood, Bone and Flesh!!!!!!


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## LeeJ (Jul 4, 2007)

Hi Bob;

Good post.

I am surprised at both, Fine Woodworking and Mario Rodriguez for showing this. Mario is a tremendous craftsman, very well versed in the safety rules of all woodworking machines. In addition this to not being a safe practice, everyone here knows my position about not having a splitter on the table saw.

And I know the likely response from both, about both. "As a professional I've been doing this, using this method for x number of years, and nothing has every happened".

That's exactly what the guy that fell off a building said somewhere around the 17th floor. I've been doing this for 20 floors now, and have never had a problem.

A very bad display for beginning woodworkers, especially, but even those with experience might see this as an accepted method.

Lee


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## sIKE (Feb 14, 2008)

This looks like a bad idea, but if you are using a miter gage up against a fence like his you too are asking for kick back. If you are going to use a miter gage you need place a small spacer on the fence several inches before the blade so as the piece moves forward it is no longer up against anything.

My main issue with the cut above is that he has two fingers and his thumb in the path of the blade, if anything were to go wrong his fingers are exactly where they shouldn't be. With a dado that close to the fence and dado stack, he should have a hold down clamped to the fence and some type of push stick for his right hand.

I have cut dadoes with both hands on the board up against the fence, mainly when the dado is in the center of a large panel. When I have a dado to do like this I prefer to use my Grr-Riper.


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## CedarFreakCarl (Apr 21, 2007)

There you go stirring the pot again Bob…..lol! All kidding aside, I can't believe this guy has all his fingers as he should at least be using some type of gripper/jointer push pad etc. Geez. Thanks for posting.


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

I only do this when I need to trim my fingernails - just kidding!

Being fairly new to woodworking, I have a related question. Suppose that instead of cutting a dado, he were cutting a groove parallel to the long dimension of the stock. If he also used a pusher of some sort to keep his hand out of harm's way, would it then be safe to use the rip fence?

- Thanks.


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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

I bought a Dadowiz to avoid having to run tht risk of kickback on the tablesaw.
One advantage is that you can cut both sides at once eliminating error or asn mi my case duplicating same. <g>
This is a video of a similar device from shopnotes. I love shopnotes


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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

Lee: "I am surprised at both"

Me too they have been very consistent over the years.

Sike: "This looks like a bad idea, but if you are using a miter guage up against a fence like this you too are asking for kick back
I personally don't use the fence for this procedure. If I do more than one consectutive dado at the same setting I would place an offset on the fence below the blade line to get the position then run the board through using the miter. It's an extra measurement doing it this way.
(I still prefer the router for safety reasons)


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## scottz (Oct 15, 2008)

That's the video I thought it was.

Mario knows more about woodworking than I will ever know and maybe he's done that a thousand times, but I would never be comfortable doing it.

ChuckV - Assuming there is absolutely no "pinch" in the fence's allignment to the saw blade, what you described would be a much safer operation in my opinion. You would have more fence-to-stock contact and your hands would be away from the blade.

All that being said, I'm always extra cautious when the splitter and guard is off the saw which is a requirement when you're not doing through cuts. I've only had a table saw kick a workpiece back at me once and I was unscathed, but I remember it very well.


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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

Hi Scott:
What we are concerned with here is cutting across a board where either end can move causing the blade to wedge and toss the board back at light speed.
The cut you refer to is generally quite safe as the fence prevents the board from wiggling and catching the blade. It is generally done with feather boards and or Grr-rippers in pairs.

You can do it with your hand and a push stick but it's not as safe and you only get one chance to make a big mistake.
I should also mention that this cut wants to lift the wood off the table which can get it airborne in a hurry if you don't keep it flush down. Often you will need two or more passes to be safe.

Cheers
Bob


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## scottz (Oct 15, 2008)

Bob:

Maybe I wasn't clear - I was responding to ChuckV's question and expounding on why his theoretical cut is safer than the crosscutting operation from the video. I fully understand what the concerns are.


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## tenontim (Feb 24, 2008)

I used to do use this technique to make dado's, until the saw shot a short piece of lumber through a solid 3/4" panel in my shop door. Now I use a router to cut dado's across the width of boards.


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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

Scott Says: 
"Bob:
Maybe I wasn't clear - I was responding to ChuckV's question and expounding on why his theoretical cut is safer than the crosscutting operation from the video. I fully understand what the concerns are." 
The software here takes a bit of getting used to as it is not hierarchical.

It should solve things for you if you first give the name of your respondent followed by your message.

No harm no foul.

Bob


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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

Tim, you and I have been to the same "church" and seen the light!

Bob


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## 8iowa (Feb 7, 2008)

It always amazes me when I watch HGTV's home improvement gru's make a cut on a saw, they first put on a dust mask, then safety glasses, and then proceed with the cut, running their hands past a whirling unguarded blade. In fact, on that channel I don't hhink I've ever seen anyone use a table saw with a guard.


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## CoolDavion (Dec 6, 2007)

Bob,

You should email this thread to the video host.
A few helpful reminders might help to make them realize that they should make better videos, be a little more mindful of their viewers.


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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

8iowa, HGTV markets a huge load of crap programming aimed at the uninformed. 
It a form of "entertainment" with little or no substance.
Most people never lift a hammer.

Dave, I'm not sure e-mailing any company today ever reaches the right people.

Most are so enshrouded in filters and front line customer service reps that it's a waste of time.
What generally wakes them up is a registered letter from a solicitor naming them in a suit involving personal injury.
That's too bad but we have lost touch with one another in society and this is the result.
p.s. They should be reading this site anyway if they want to know what's happening in the woodworking scene. ;-)

Bob


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## JimJ (Jul 19, 2008)

Include in the e-mail a link to this thread, and IF they were to read it, they would get an "ear" full. Maybe jack it up the line to higher ups at HGTV. Maybe include their General Counsel.


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## bob101 (Dec 14, 2008)

If that kicks back or those hands slip good by hand and fingers.Thats just a stupid practcice


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## 8iowa (Feb 7, 2008)

Dont tell me….............let me guess…..............He was doing a home improvement project on HGTV. Right?

Their segments are full of scary operations like this.


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## Rustic (Jul 21, 2008)

It just goes to show that even the "professional" woodworkers do dumb things. The 1st video was chuck full of stupid things. I hope someone has emailed them and told them.


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## Padre (Nov 5, 2008)

Good post Bob. That is just plain scary!


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## tooldad (Mar 24, 2008)

I apologize if I am repeating what someone else has already said. I think I have some creditbility being a shop teaher, along with a lot of others on this site also. I get to see inexperience in its entireity. I keep stressing to the students to ask and setup checks on the table saw are mandatory no matter what level of the student.

No doubt this is a dangerous operation for a number of things that have been explained. To clarify, in all woodworking textbooks, manuals, etc that I have read and use for class, it is okay to use the miter gauge and fence together in one type of situation only. That is when you are not cutting all the way through.

However saying that, I have the students use a sled with a hold down clamp. We used to use a miter gauge only. The comfort level of the students has gone up using the sled. They are no longer intimidated to make a dado. The hold down removes their hands from the board completely and they then push just on the sled and feel safe. I also have a sheet of plexiglass over where the blade cuts.

I also frequently remind students that I call the guards "dummy guards". I then explain that if you are dumb enough to put you hand under it you get what you deserve. Then I explain they can't completely stop things from going under them, because then the wood couldnt' get cut or routered. I have found that the brett guard on the table saw is the guard I feel the most comfortable and is the safest with the safety of the students

just my 2 cents.


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## dusty2 (Jan 4, 2009)

I wholeheartedly agree that what we have seen here does not look safe and I do not believe that I would ever do these things in my own shop. However, I do wonder if we collectively would be so self righteous if we could watch ourselves perform in the privacy of our own shops for an extended period of time.


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

Just to explain. I wouldnt let anybody else try that in my shop but I do it all the time. With absolute correct finger posture and absolutle correct finger to board pressure and the utmost focus and concentration in watching wood to fence…............it can be done safely mind you, Ive been at this trade now since 1975.

The general rule of thumb is that the board should be twice as wide in length to fence, then fence to cutting tool


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## sIKE (Feb 14, 2008)

Roman, I understand where you are coming from and if his fingers were in different location on the board I would go along with what you said. But the index finger and thumb are passing over the blade!


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## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

Looks like a good way to "cut" out my competition. (Maybe not the most tasteful joke, but it is friday)


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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

i still think it not a good message to send out to the majority of woodworkers.

I am expecting a higher standard from those who choose to teach or demo.

Bob


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## kolwdwrkr (Jul 27, 2008)

I'll have to say that over the years I've done things like this. Maybe in a hurry to get something done or whatever. However, I put the Excalibur sliding table on my saw and was able to use it as a miter gauge for these types of situations, and even without it I would have used a standard miter gauge in most instances. I've seen a lot of posts about safety and I can almost guarantee you that most people, especially people making a living in woodworking, have lowered their safety standards to make things go a little quicker, maybe without even thinking about it. That's the problem with it as a profession. You always seem to be rushed or out of time so things, especially safety, get overlooked.


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