# P&N bowl gouge



## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

Hi, I am looking at a P&N bowl gouge to replace one I have. I want a V or a parabolic flute but they only say they have a deep flute. I want to put a 40/40 grind on it but according to Batty you can't use a U flute. Does any body know what kind of flute they have thanks Mike


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## Wildwood (Jul 22, 2012)

Not sure where you are looking but P & N stop selling turning tools.

http://www.packardwoodworks.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=packard&Category_Code=tools-pn

Packard woodworks only sells three bowl gouges two 5/8" and one 7/8".
all three are for hogging out wood. Shorter gouge V shaped and other two U shaped.

http://www.packardwoodworks.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=packard&Category_Code=tools-pn-bowlgo

http://www.packardwoodworks.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=packard&Category_Code=tools-pn-supabowlgo

Lee Valley list different size P&N bowl gouges does not say anything about U or V shape!


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

ok thanks maybe I will stick with PSI


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## Wildwood (Jul 22, 2012)

When say parabolic all you are talking about is a geometrical curve. If look at link will see both U and V shape gouges with either fingernail or side grind. Both bowl and spindle gouges have a parabolic curve!

https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Parabolic%20bowl%20gouge&cbir=sbi&imageBin=&qs=n&form=QBIR&sp=-1&pq=parabolic%20bowl%20gouge&sc=4-20&sk=&cvid=05F863C5643745FAA82F20CE30B88EF0

Lyle has signature parabolic flute bowl gouge as well as Artisan tool, can you see any difference to those tools and Ellsworth gouge?

http://lylejamieson.com/product/signature-jamieson-grind-bowl-gouge-thompson-handled/

https://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/p/129/948/Artisan-Superflute-Bowl-Gouge

https://www.packardwoodworks.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=tools-ellsw-gouge

If look at Doug Thomson tool whether U or V shape they all have a parabolic curve. http://thompsonlathetools.com/

Whether you have U, V, Super or Deep Flute gouge most important thing is one consistant Bevel with no facets! If go to pages 12 &13 will see suggested bevel angles for style of bowl want to turn. A bevel angle between 45 to 55 degtees about best compromise.

http://s12166.pcdn.co/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Woodturning_Notes.pdf

There are several You-Tube videos showing you how to sharpen with or with out a double bevel & Wolverine System.


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

Right know I am to confused to know anything. I only know what I was told. I want a 40/40 grind on my on one gouge, i have heard good things about that. last club meeting i saw it demonstrated and the difference was amazing. I am paranoid about ruing the gouge. fortunately my 1/2 in gouge wasn't to bad and i was able to fix it on the sander. The Elsworth grind is good but is good for one grind one angle. I did see a video where a guy made an Elsworth jig and said he could do any angle and Irish gring\d but he didn't say or show more and Im to dumb to figure it out


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## Wildwood (Jul 22, 2012)

When talking about geometrical curves they are more common than you would think! While those claiming to have parabolic flutes might want to check themselves. They are not entirely incorrect! Maybe if we asked them for formula or basic equation they used things could really get deep!

https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=parabolic+shapes+object&qs=HS&form=QBILPG&sp=3&pq=para&sk=HS2&sc=8-4&cvid=F24789DF41944F6B8146F8359D564A6B


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

I won't ask the picture I understand. They were repeating Stuart Batty, He says some where in his video 40/40 grind that you can't get the grind on a U shaped gouge you have to use a V or a parabolic. As far as the Elsworth maybe I can get it but I'll ruin a gouge doing it


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

> The Elsworth grind is good but is good for one grind one angle. I did see a video where a guy made an Elsworth jig and said he could do any angle and Irish gringd but he didn t say or show more and Im to dumb to figure it out
> - Karda


This confuses me… by it's very nature, the jig used (ellsworth type) can be set for an almost infinite number of angles depending on placement in relation to the wheel/belt doing the sharpening. Am I missing something?

Cheers,
Brad


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

ok how do you adjust it for a different angle. I put a dowel with an given angle cut on the end with a 2" stick out and placed it against the wheel but I'm not sure that was right. I also folloed the directions that came with the jig. The jig was original sold by Packard as an elsworth jig. The set up is a 2.5" stick out &.5 inches from the wheel and 5" down, what angle does that give


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

You just mentioned three different ways to adjust the angle 

As for what angle it gives… can't help you there as I'm not in front of it. However, you can see for yourself what changes to the angle are made by changing various aspects of the jig and it's mount. Just changing the tool stick out will change the angle. Moving the pivot in or out, up or down will change the angle. Between the three areas of adjustment, you have a wide, wide range of angles you can produce.

Cheers,
Brad


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

ok


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## Wildwood (Jul 22, 2012)

If go back to sturat Batty's 40/40 video he talks about V gouge & European eliptical shape gouges to achieve his 40/40 grind. He goes on to explain cannot use a U shapped bowl gouge with his 40/40 grind. Says nothing about parabolic in that first part of the video. Batty's 40/40 supposed to eliminates need to shear scrapand go right to 180 grit sand paper!






Here is one way to set up platform on 8" bench grinder for freehand sharpening.

http://floridawoodturningsymposium.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Bowl-Gouge-Handout.pdf

If going use Oneway Vari-grind jig.





Again if going to use a platform:





If look at Lyle's and Artisan parabolic flutes but so is nose of gouges:

Lyle explains:
https://lylejamieson.com/wp-content/uploads/gouge-unhandled.jpg






http://turnawoodbowl.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Bowl_Gouge_Flute_Details.jpg

Have no experience with Ellsworth jig with the Wolverine system but would check the bevel angle after sharpening as shown in links already posted. Think Wolverine Vari-grind jig has instructions for both fingernail and Ellsworth grinds and bevel angles.


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## OSU55 (Dec 14, 2012)

Karda - just keep using Bens Best tools from PSI for now, use them to learn how to sharpen and use different tool edge shapes.

I use a 40 and a 65 deg bevel both with long "wings" Ellsworth style. All are BB psi tools. I use a different jig setup (Tormek) and cant tell you how to set yours up. Just want to let you know the BB tools can be ground different ways and work well. Posting some pics of your sharpening set up may help in guiding you to set it up to get what you want.

Dont believe a different angle/shape will magically get you a better finish off the tool. Its not the tool, its who's holding it (not meant to be negative to you). I find the 40/40 tool much more aggresive and great for rapid wood removal. It is limited in making the turn for steeper walled work. I use the 65 for clean up and making those sharper turns. I also use a ~75 deg traditional grind for really tight turns and final smoothing out of wavy bowl bottoms before getting scrapers and sandpaper out.


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

thanks for the links Bill, some of them I have seen But I will watch again, some times I think I have to much information but i always do. The biggest challenge I have is translating what I see into the videos to the tool I am shaping and controlling the panic when I don't do it right the first time. I wish there was something to practice on. On the angle gauge batty uses can you make your own

OSU55 I bought a P&N 5/8s gouge but I think I'll wait to shape that one till my club meeting and see if I can get some help.here is pic of my set up and some pictures of my grind. It cuts but not well and I can't get the wing swept back. I like a long wing to use a draw cut to flatten the out side bottom of bowls. The black in some pics is marker


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## Wildwood (Jul 22, 2012)

Looks like nice sharpening system, guess will get where you want to be!

This dated tool grind page of interest because some folks no longer with us not and tools made by same manufacturer. Talking about Glasser which is now Glasser Hi-Tec.

http://www.woodcentral.com/newforum/grinds.shtml

Even back then would find from 30 degree to 70 degree bevel on their bowl gouges notice those with parabolic curved flutes. Once those folks found what works for them would rather fight than switch.

My angle checker is two school protractor with small not & bolt in center so can lay one edge inside flutes and other side on bevel (tip from Woodturning Mag) costing $0.50 many years ago.


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

my grind is getting there one thing that freaks me out is the grinder, I started out with a belt sander and a 120 grit ceramic belt, does a great job. But when i switched to a grinder the wheel is 120 but it much more aggressive. I guess i am afraid of taking off to much. I am getting a grind that cuts but not real well. My grind is 70 I didn't set the jig to specks I set it match the existing grind. Question look at the flute picture, are the cheeks to fat


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## TheDane (May 15, 2008)

> Question look at the flute picture, are the cheeks to fat


Yes.


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

ok will the jig do it or do I do free hand and how far do I take it down, I have never seen that in any of the videos


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## OSU55 (Dec 14, 2012)

The jig will do it. You do have to grind more or less time in areas as you swing the tool - it is not the same amount of time, i.e. a constant motion, to form a shape. Once formed it tends to be a constant motion, but it depends. Below is a side and top pic of one of my 40/40 gouges:



















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Same for my 62 deg gouge:









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I use a "dual bevel" to grind away the heel of the tool and then a relatively thin bevel, just keep that in mind as it does effect how they look. Regardless of that, notice two things - the thin bevel is constant, no multi-facets like in your pics, and look at the wing slope. It is constantly falling toward the tip in a slight arc. the wing must be flat to "positive" from the tool top to the tip. It could be a straight line, must be above the straight line, never below. It cannot dip down and back up as it forms from the top to the tip. Get a nice gently arcing slope and a rounded tip, and the rest will take care of itself.

I use different jig settings for the 40 and 62 deg tools, but mine are for Tormek jigs and won't help you. Is the angle between the tool and pivot support arm adjustable on your jig? That angle and the distance from the wheel are the adjustments really needed for different angles and long wings, but tool extension from the jig can also be used.


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

I didn't think you can do a 40/40 grind on a jig. Thats good to know. Thanks for the pointers. Some of the facets are due to plat form grinding. I tried on the platform and screwed it up it is a little better know I can use it but it is not as nice as off the sander, that give a realy nice edge. I also ground off the excess bulk on the sides of the cheeks


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## Wildwood (Jul 22, 2012)

This guy made his own jig to use on his platform which might be worth a look.

https://www.petermiao.com/news/2017/11/11/a-jig-for-4040-grind

This set up meant for using Ellsworth jig to get 60/62 degree bevel per Ellsworth, or side grind grind.

http://mendocinowoodturnersguild.org/wp-content/uploads/TheEllsworth-SharpeningJig.pdf

You will see not everyone happy with 40/40 and state what works for them.

http://www.woodcentral.com/woodworking/forum/archives_turning.pl/bid/2001/md/read/id/496562/sbj/the-advantage/

Being self taught wasted a lot of steel before finding out what works for me. My Vari-grind jig so old doesn't have those knotches you see today. After reading and following instructions that came with that jig back then got me up and running.

Just find what works for you!


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## LeeMills (Nov 2, 2014)

This short video helped me a lot when I started. Only a few minutes long for the bowl gouge.


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

Thanks for the links and suggestions, One reason wanted the 40/40 was the ease of sharpening. Also one the my club members demonstrated that cut and it was very smooth, he was a very experienced turner but still. I also wanted to get away from my sander because I can't find good belts for it but I may go back to it. I am kinda stumbling around trying to find what right. Currently what i am cutting at is about 70 degrees, on the whole bowl. I have been told that that a bottoming angle. I prefer my .5" gouge at 45 degrees but that is slow compared to the 5/8. What is the difference between the 40/40 grind and a 40 degree finger nail grind


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## OSU55 (Dec 14, 2012)

From what I see Stuart Batty does his 40/40 grind as what I call a fingernail or Irish grind, somewhat swept back wings, vs an Ellsworth with longer wings, as in my pics (my interpretation of profile names, others may differ). I use the longer wing profile to use the wing to make scraping cuts, both aggressive and sheer type. The difference between profiles, traditional, fingernail or Irish, and Ellsworth, is wing length, not the nose of the tool. All will cut the same with the nose. The no wing traditional grind can allow the wings to catch. The Irish grind sweeps the wings back out of the way, but are a bit short and sharply angled to scrape with. The Ellsworth provides a long wing to scrape with, allowing more cutting time between sharpenings due to having more cutting edge available. For the most part one gets the different profiles by how far the tool is swept to each side and how long the tool dwells to each side, but also the angle of the tool to the pivot point of the jig arm, which affects the sweep motion. My interpretation - notice my name is not attached to any of these profiles.


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

Hi, OSU55 thanks for the explanation of the different grinds that make me feel better, less paranoid about getting the grind wrong and ruining the tool thanks mike


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

I realy screwed it up this time, I had my large gouge so it would cut not well but it cut, then I tried to sharpen it but instead I blunted it and it has no edge, The angle is 100 degrees jig might have lisped but its ruined.The wheel is 120 grit but still very aggressive much more than my 120 ceramic belt here are some pics


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## OSU55 (Dec 14, 2012)

Welcome to learning sharpening of turning tools! This is why I recommend Bens Best tools at 1st- grind the whole thing down and you are out ~$35. Btw the gouge isnt ruined until the flute is gone.

You cant be at 100 deg, the bevel would angle toward the handle. Bevel angle is from the straight line of the bottom of the tool vs the straight line of the bevel. 75 deg is very steep, used for making the turn in straighter walled bowls with a tight corner.


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

maybe I am measuring wrong here is the measurement of the tool, can't read it but it is 93 or 94 degrees I am having a problem setting up as ellsworth instructed. How do you measure 4" down when the point t6o measure from is air, no mark to measure from. Sorry I am just getting very frustrated.


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## Nubsnstubs (Aug 30, 2013)

is that your angle thingy? Take another picture that shows the tool angle touching the tool tip in light instead of a shadow. How can anyone decipher what you are going through with those bad pictures. Don't mean to rag on your picture taking abilities, but come on Mike, get some better pictures. ........... Jerry (in Tucson)


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

hope this is easier to read. Not 100 but very close


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## TheDane (May 15, 2008)

Looks like about 82 degrees to me.


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

> Looks like about 82 degrees to me.
> - TheDane


Looks like about 79 degrees to me 










Cheers,
Brad


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

what is a good angle for a bottom gouge, i got My P&N today. It has about a 45 angle. I'll try that but when i figure out what I am doing I am going to sharpen it to 40 degrees


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## OSU55 (Dec 14, 2012)

I use 78 deg for a bottom gouge - its where I get with the Tormek jig. 70-80 deg it doesnt have to be a paticular exact #, just repeatable with your sharpening setup, and cuts well for you.


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

ok thanks


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## Nubsnstubs (Aug 30, 2013)

> hope this is easier to read. Not 100 but very close
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks, Mike. Much better picture. Like Brad said, looks like 79 degrees…. That's all I got, Buddy…...... jerry (in Tucson)


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## OSU55 (Dec 14, 2012)

Karda just keep working at it. Takes a very light touch to the grinding wheel. Try to get a very slight arch to the wing vs the straight wing it appears you have. Let the main bevel grow in width for now - the wheel will have to remove more material making it less touchy. You can grind the heel later after getting better at sharpening.


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## TheDane (May 15, 2008)

> what is a good angle for a bottom gouge


My bottom feeder (1/2" bowl gouge) is ground to 70 degrees.


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

thanks for you patience, I don't get guess I'm just to dumb to figure out how to use a protractor


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

Finely got the angle thing where I want it. however the tool looks more like a club than anything and i'm not sure it will cut, what am I doing wrong. The edge seems sharp but nothing like off my sander. Another thing, from sharpening I am developing a grove in the center of my wheel, what am I doing wrong. I have had to dress my wheel twice just from try to sharpen one bowl gouge


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