# Handcut dovetails which to do first



## pontic (Sep 25, 2016)

Do you start with the pins or do you start with the tails. I know this sounds like a silly question. I rarely hand cut dove tails and need some advice on it. I have the marking gauges and saws and chisels. It's just been a while. I use my Omnijig and all I've done lately is Half blind dovetail joints. So I would like to get back into handcut thru dovetails.
Thanks


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## TraylorPark (Jan 9, 2014)

I don't know what the conventional wisdom is on this subject, but I always cut tails first. For me it's easier to transfer the cut tails to the mating piece and then cut the pins.


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## JayT (May 6, 2012)

Oh boy, that question can open a can of worms. People do them both ways and there is no wrong answer, just whatever works for you.

I've done both and settled on tails first, as well, for the same reason as Zach. Easier transfer of the marks.


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

Tails for me.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

I find it's easier to cut an exact 90 degrees
straight down than hold the saw at an
angle and cut to the mark. I cut the tails
first for this reason, transfer the pin marks
using a chisel or a special claw-shaped 
piece of ground hack saw. If your pins are
to be small, a chisel won't fit well between
the tails.

Of course the opposite is true - when cutting
pins first marking the tails is not obstructed.


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## johnstoneb (Jun 14, 2012)

I usually cut tails first for most of the above reasons but have cut pins first on occasion.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

I always cut pins first. ( so does some guy named Klaus..) as there is more room to mark tails, easier to hold the pin board ON the tail board to mark. I have tried the tails first…meh, mine turn out too sloppy. I go back to pins first, and I can get tighter fitting joints.


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## MrSmith670 (Jan 26, 2014)

I'm a tails first guy myself. I've tried both and prefer tails first.


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## pontic (Sep 25, 2016)

Thanks guys so much.
I shall try tails first. Second question? Do you all use an angle guage or do you free hand the angles on the layout. Or do you use a 90degree equal segmentation and then put the angles in with a angle transfer thingy . I'm leaning toward 90 degree layout and then freehand the angle marks with a chisel.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

I freehand it. I cut all the tail cuts going
one way then flip the board around and
do the rest so my muscle memory just has
to do one angle. Obviously practicing on
pine is a good idea but also the angles with
hardwoods should be shallower than with
pine.


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## JADobson (Aug 14, 2012)

I cut tails first. I can gang cut boards to save some time.


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## Marcial (Nov 27, 2016)

I'm a fellow dovetails newbie (except a prior Condor tails project) and for now it's a tails first approach. The only way pins first would make sense (to me) is if you used a router for the pins. Thanks for asking the Q.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

The fellow named Klausz I referred to ( now that I've spelled his last name correctly) aka Frank Klausz….seems he also does pins first…..

In fact, he even has a youtube video ( I just got done watching it, again) on hand cut dovetails…..See if you can keep up…


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## ColonelTravis (Mar 19, 2013)

> I find it's easier to cut an exact 90 degrees
> straight down than hold the saw at an
> angle and cut to the mark. I cut the tails
> first for this reason
> - Loren


Not sure where I first saw this technique mentioned but I started doing this a few weeks ago and it has worked wonders for me. Tilt the board instead of the saw.


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## JayT (May 6, 2012)

I usually use a David Barron magnetic guide for dovetails and did a review on it. I can and have cut them freehand and get good results, but still use the guide. Even though I can now cut accurately enough to not need the guide, it makes things go a lot faster.


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## pontic (Sep 25, 2016)

For those who freehand. How many dovetail runs have you cut before you felt proficient at doing it freehand?


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

Tails first here as well. I also like gang cutting. I tend to pull when cutting the right to left slope. It takes a while to get them looking good, I'm definitely still working on it.


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

I worked more on cutting to a line than just cutting dovetails. They took too long to mark up so I worked more on sawing than specifically on dovetails. So that when I started dovetails it was less of a learning curve. Don't get me wrong, I did a set on scrap here and there to measure my skills progress but for the most part I practiced cutting to lines.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

> For those who freehand. How many dovetail runs have you cut before you felt proficient at doing it freehand?
> 
> - pontic


Freehand, tails first.

To gain capability and confidence and muscle memory, I did the 30 Dovetails in 30 Days thing using many short (8" or so) stubs of 1×4 stock. I was into it about three weeks when things were good. It's a great exercise and super reason to go to the shop each day.


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## johnstoneb (Jun 14, 2012)

I did the 30 in 30 also. It really helped my skills and setup. I cut them all freehand a guide would probably be nice to have but I don't.


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## bondogaposis (Dec 18, 2011)

I do them both ways. I generally cut the tails first, but when making really narrow London style pins, I find it easier to cut the pins first, because it is difficult to impossible to get the marking knife between the tails when marking the pin board. Cutting the pins first solves that problem.


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## pontic (Sep 25, 2016)

Off to do 30×30. Thanks guys.
Oh, BTW does anyone do them with a Japanese saw?


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

only little ones, but yes. The dozuki works
well but all the dust pulled back out of the
kerf is an annoyance as you can't see the
marked lines.


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## Marcial (Nov 27, 2016)

I'm also using Japanese saws. As for the dust, it's easy to blow away (lungs thankfully still work well).


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

If you ever get to where you are doing dovetails a bunch, I would recommend a fret saw. I have the knew concepts. It's glorious.


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## pontic (Sep 25, 2016)

I have a Lee Valley fine cut Japanese style saw that cuts smooth and like butter. First attempt I used A coarse Japanese saw with not so good results. I'm having more trouble with the Chiseling> Think I'll try my mortice chisels


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## Marcial (Nov 27, 2016)

I'm also using Japanese saws. As for the dust, it's easy to blow away (lungs thankfully still work well). + one on the Knew Concepts fret saw. Finally it all starts with accurate marking- which I'm struggling with. Then starting the cut, if I'm off a bit, it's really hard to correct. Grasshopper has much to learn.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

"I'm having more trouble with the Chiseling…"

Sharp fixes that. If the chisel you're using doesn't work as a paring chisel -able to shave down on end grain vs. crush the fibers, especially if practicing with pine- it's not sharp enough for dovetailing.

Just a thought.


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## pontic (Sep 25, 2016)

My chisels are wicked sharp. I get off track when I make my cuts. It's not like sculpting or Intaglio carving or relief carving where precision is not the key. This process has to be precise or you see gaps. I knw I will get some flack from the carvers about that statement but when you compare the procedures dovetailing is more about precision.
I think I need to practice more and actually look where I'm cutting or chiseling also holding the chisel perpendicular when making the bottom cut would help don't you think. 
Yes I will give my chisels a good hone on my diamond plate.
Thanks guys.
I am making progress, my dovetails are getting tighter.


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## lew (Feb 13, 2008)

A little late to the party but here is a neat way to layout the dovetails-

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/video/use-dividers-for-quick-easy-dovetail-layout-no-measuring


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## JayT (May 6, 2012)

When chiseling, are you trying to cut to the baseline and remove waste at the same time or in two different steps?

I've found the best way is to chisel out the first cut of waste about 1/16" above the baseline, so that the bevel doesn't drive the edge too far back. Once the first part is out, I go back and place the chisel edge right on the line and take off that last little bit with the chisel perpendicular, then angle back a couple degrees to undercut the rest.

Hope that makes sense.


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

Ditto. I use a guide block made of ebony sometimes.


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## RJweb (Mar 12, 2011)

Looking at the lnk above about laying out the dovetails, or any other layout videos, what i don't understand is they say make 1/2 pins on each end, but if you look at the one she just laid out those pins on the ends look to be about twice the size of the pins inside, if someone could shed some light on this, thx RJ


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## wflather (Jul 15, 2015)

Doesn't matter which one you start with, just remember that you will be using the first ones you cut as guides to mark the cut-out lines for the matching side, so whichever side, once cut out, will give you more room for your marking pencil or knife is the side you should start with.


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

Guide blocks rock:


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

Yeah I wouldn't use mortise chisels unless there wasn't another option.


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## pontic (Sep 25, 2016)

> "I m having more trouble with the Chiseling…"
> 
> Sharp fixes that. If the chisel you re using doesn t work as a paring chisel -able to shave down on end grain vs. crush the fibers, especially if practicing with pine- it s not sharp enough for dovetailing.
> 
> ...


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## pontic (Sep 25, 2016)

> Yeah I wouldn t use mortise chisels unless there wasn t another option.
> 
> - TheFridge


Why?


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

I use a mortise chisel while cutting box joints. Just remember to keep the bevel pointing away from the base line, always…

Dovetails, I use whatever chisel fits the space I am chopping into. 









I chop 1/2 from each side. I leave a little left right out on the end. Supports the waste while you chop from the other side..









The MAIN reason I cut these first?









Is it is a heck of a lot easier to mark the lines. Then I merely have to saw on the waste side of the lines, LEAVING the lines. 









On half blind dovetails, it is easier to do the tails first, and mark for the pins.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

Mortise chisels will bruise the tails easily and they
won't get into the acute tail corners anyway. For
the pins they are fine, if sharp enough.

In trimming to the line I follow Ian Kirby who
recommends sawing with a fret saw then chiseling
a pyramid in the dovetail bottom, then shaving
the pyramid flat. If you remove the excess down
fairly close to the line, the chisel may be lodged
in the line and tap-tapped to the line perfectly
without the short grain inside the dovetail breaking
out… which is the risk of hammering off too
large and amount, as if mortising.


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## pontic (Sep 25, 2016)

How do you do this pyramid process?


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## pontic (Sep 25, 2016)

My dovetails are getting better. Here's what I've learned from you Guys: 
1) sharp chisels are a must
2) Tails first for beginners
3) Marking gage is very necessary
4) Don't use a mortise chisel does not work very well
5) Don't start the chiseling right at the line back off a bit. (still don't understand the triangle method, need a picture)
6) thinner kerf and finer tooth saws work better.
7) go slower with hard wood
8) use a shooting board. ( don't have ebony but my piece of hickory works well)


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

I learned it from a Kirby article in FWW. If you
have the DVD of the back articles you can
probably find it. He wrote a book which 
probably goes into it.

https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Dovetail-Handmade-Furnitures-Signature/dp/0941936678


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Picture of a triangle/pyramid..









You peel a bit up, towards the base line, flip the waste out. Lightly chop down at the base line..ONCE, go back to about the middle of the waste and peel some more. repeat the base line chop. get about half way through on one face, flip the board over, and repeat the chop, peel, chop. The second chop will pop the waste free.

Paul Sellers has a very nice video out about how to do this. Worth watching.


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## pontic (Sep 25, 2016)

http://www.leevalley.com/us/images/item/woodworking/saws/05t0201s03.jpg
Is this a good jig to use for a beginner?


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## JayT (May 6, 2012)

The Veritas jig is very similar to the David Barron guide I use and I can heartily recommend it. Just make sure you have a saw with very little set to the teeth to use with it. Japanese saws work well, though I prefer and use a western style dovetail saw that I took some of the set out so it wouldn't rub on the guide.


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## pontic (Sep 25, 2016)

JayT do you collect Planes?


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## JayT (May 6, 2012)

Depends on your definition of collect. I have about 35-40, most of them are users, but about a half dozen are display pieces in my office. So, yes, by most definitions, I would probably be a collector. Compared to some on this site, my collection is small and insignificant.


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## pontic (Sep 25, 2016)

Well look at the "Can you tell me Where these Planes Came from" and let me know if you are interested Iwill message you with the rest of the story behind them.


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## Rrrandy (Feb 1, 2017)

What I've learned from making hand cut dovetails is that a Gifkins dovetail jig and a router table save a lot of time, effort and anxiety and they come out perfect every time. Technically, they're hand cut…


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## JADobson (Aug 14, 2012)

Re point 5: Don't chisel out all the waste. Use the coping saw method a few of the others have mentioned. So much less work.


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

51 posts in 4 days…....

With DT's never say "always" or "have to".

I usually always (ha ha) do pins first if I'm just doing 1 or 2 drawers, for example because that's the way I learned it way back when.

For 1/2 blinds you HAVE to do tails first 

For mass production do tails first you can cut multiple sides at once.

Bottom line: learn to do it both ways, then adapt to what the project is demanding.


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## houblon (Nov 15, 2013)

> For 1/2 blinds you HAVE to do tails first


I read that a lot but I always do pins first. 
Learned that from the Tage Frid book and it works for me.


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## Marcial (Nov 27, 2016)

As a DT apprentice, it's great to see this thread evolve into a DT primer. Will continue to follow with interest.


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## bobro (Oct 24, 2014)

I cut pins first, same as my grandfather, who was born in the 19th century, did, very much as Franz Klausz does in his video. I don't know if this is a European thing like it says in woodworking articles, but it's certainly an old-school Eastern European thing. It just seems more logical and easy to me, and it's fast, though of course i'm not as nearly as quick as either my grandfather or Franz Klausz. And pins first is how I'd teach someone else to do it, handcut dovetails being kind of my woodworking specialty.


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