# Bevel Ripping on a Table Saw With Right Tilting Blade



## gerrym526

I'd like to get the definitive answer on this one. When bevel ripping on a table saw with a blade that tilts towards the fence, the common practice is to move the rip fence to the left side of the blade so the cut off piece falls to the outside of the blade. That's how I've always done it, but the technique is awkward to say the least.
However, I've occasionally seen pictures in books and magazines that occasionally show the rip fence in the normal position, ie. to the right of the blade and the piece being cut pushed between the blade and the fence. Was I dreaming or is this a safe acceptable practice?
Should mention that my Unisaw is set up with a stationary spliitter in line with the blade at 90 degrees, but does not tilt with the blade like some splitters on European saws.

Thanks in advance for your help.


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## GaryK

I can't say definitively what is correct, but I never cut a bevel with the wood trapped under the blade
and between the fence.


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## Karson

I'd be leery of doing it.


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## Radish

Always seemed like loading a gun aimed right at yourself. I'll take awkward over dangerous.


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## sbryan55

Beveling with the wood trapped like this is an accident waiting to happen.


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## Dadoo

Trapping the cutoff never was a good idea.


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## relic

Thats just Dangerous.


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## miles125

Really depends on what you're cutting. Beveling the edge of a wide plank is no problem. Beveling thick stock with the blade close to the fence gets a little precarious.


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## mrtrim

id dial 911 first then make your cut . lol


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## boboswin

How long is the wood you are cutting?
I have used my crosscut sled (24") for this cut as I built it with a vertical hold down so there is little risk of tossing the stick out from under it.
The base is Mdf and I just glue in a new strip of it to close the gap from the bevel when I'm done.
p.s. it's not an everyday event here BTW.

Bob


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## Suz

Recently there was a very 'heated' argument on a different forum that I frequent on this very subject with several European woodworkers weighing in on the debate. There was also a neat video to watch using a low rip fence and also a "short fence" on the right tilt table saw. (I guess it is illegal to use a left tilt saw in any commercial shop in most of Europe. Also all their saws must have riving knives instead of splitters.)
Anyway, I've got a right tilt saw and I think I'll continue to move the fence to the left side when making a angle rip cut even if does feel awkward.


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## boboswin

Yesterday and in direct conflict with my preceding statement I made up a 45° bevel crosscut sled.
It is similar to the one shown above and uses the same hold down to avoid more clutter.
My joints are dead on with this jig and you cant put a hair in the line between the parts.
If only for accuracy I would build this but the safety is unchallengable.

In esscence this does move the wood to the left of the blade.

p.s. Jim, what forum were you looking at with the debate on North American tools.
Surely those "Europeans" must have something else to do with their time.

They seem so caught up on doing what the "state" dictates that they cant think .
Imagine a tablesaw designed by bureaucrats. <g>

Bob


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## North40

I can't imagine why left-tilt would be more dangerous than right-tilt. I've had both types of saws and I move the fence to both sides of the blade depending on the operation. The fence spends more time to the right of the blade with a left-tilt saw.


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## roman

I have two right tilt saws and have, for the past thirty years, done bevel ripping with the fence to the right of the blade. On the very rare occasion, the piece has come out like a bullet.

I *NEVER* stand directly behind the piece being ripped (always off to the side) whether beveled or not

I always lock the shop and make sure no one is standing near the area of danger.


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## Suz

Okay I wasn't sure about posting a link to another forum and have now found out that it's okay with everyone. 
Here is the link that other debate on left and right tilt saws and ripping:
http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/showthread.php?t=2970
Check out the video link that is within one of the postings on using a short fence. Very interesting concept.


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## boboswin

I wasn't sure Jim until you gave us the link but that guy has been on a mission all over North american wood forums endorsing the European standards while at the same time undermining the safety of North American tables saws.
I really don't understand why he can't just leave it be.

Not taking sides right now, just a little tired of the *constant* malarkey and continuous cross posting of same.

Bob


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## motthunter

i agree to leave it be. It is a safety issue.

Bottom line is *ANY WOOD TRAPPED BETWEEN BLADE AND FENCE = DANGER*

Always do what is safest.

Enough said.


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## GaryK

Looking at that link shows how not to do it. Cutting a bevel with the cut off between the blade and fence 
is dangerous.

Suppose you are ripping a 13" board down to 12". Would you set your fence to 1" to make the cut? 
No. For more than one reason. First it would be dangrous and second to get 12" you would have to subtract
the width of the blade.

The link also shows a picture cutting a bevel with a couple of inches to spare allowing him to use a push stick.
What if you were cutting a bevel with nothing to spare? I bet you anything he would move the fence to
the other side of the blade to make the cut.

The height of the fence wouldn't matter either. It's still trapped even with 1/8" high fence.

Riving knife wouldn't make any difference either. It is thinner than the blade so the cut off shouldn't be 
touching it, allowing the blade to kick it back.
Also once you cut is made what's stopping the workpiece from swinging into the blade?


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## niki

Yeap, I was watching the thread and I had that feeling that it will come….

I'm "that guy….that is undermining the North American table saws safety"....

On that post, I did not force anybody to use any method. I've just shown the method that is used and taught in UK and if you will read Vinnyb76 reply #14 you'll see that I did not "invent" it…

As I've said in the post, the UK safety regulations are influenced by the workers unions that want a better and safer working environment and they don't care how much it will cost to the employer to comply with the safety regulation.
That's why the Splitter was dropped at the 60th and the Riving Knife took it's place and that's why the "Blade must stop within 10 seconds" (and from this year, on all the woodworking and Metalworking machines without permanent guard) and that's why the machines must comply with the "Dust control" regulations…

The short fence with the "high" and "low" positions is also a safety feature that because of the combination "Riving knife + short fence" the UK safety regulations do not demand the "Anti-kickback pawls" (even the newest North American table saws that are equipped with Riving Knife are still comming with the pawls installed on the riving knife) and I believe that those guys from UK know why…

So here are the pics of 4 deferent bevel cuts…as you will see, I was so confident that I did not even push the wood all the way out of the blade, I just hit the stop switch and took the picture.

On the second picture, I even did not stop the blade and took the picture leaving the wood to "dance" on the blade….the secret ? Riving knife…

I'm not going to reply anymore so Mot (Tom)...sorry but no popcorn this time…


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## Sawdust2

Leave it to Niki to have more than one way to do it right … er… correctly

Going back to the earlier post between left and right handed woodworkers. Being left handed I do not see a problem with putting the fence on the left side of the blade.


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## GaryK

Niki - Good job on making something dangerous, safer, but wouldn't it be easier to move the fence to the left
of the blade? It would save you from having to make and store all those fixtures.


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## niki

Hi Sawdust2 and Gary

Actually, it's my first time that I'm cutting bevels and I did it just to show somebody on the other forum that it can be done safely also with right tilt blade.

All the fixtures that you see on the pics are not for cutting bevels but for cutting thin strips and I just used them also for cutting bevels.

As you can see, the space on the left side is limited and if the board is too wide (like on the last 2 pics) I don't have enough space for the fence (my fence is not riding and locking to the lateral rails. Those rails are for mounting the sliding table.

Some small secret…
I was "born" with left fence…when I started the hobby some 13 years ago, I did not have any books nor Internet forums and naturally, I located the fence on the left side and I'm right handed.

In my opinion, it's much more safer…I was standing behind the fence and while pulling the board toward me (toward the fence), I was also pushing it forward.
As I see it, this method has two advantages…

*My hands were never over the blade and if something un-expected happens, I pull my hands naturally toward my body…far from the blade…

*in case of kickback, the board will climb on the blade, turned clockwise and be thrown to the right side of the blade and backward but I was not there…. you can see it on this video…and the guy knew why to stand behind the fence





Please try the left fence on your table saw (dry run only) and you'll see what I mean

By the way, I never got a scratch nor a kickback on this primitive table saw even though I did not use any guard nor splitter that nowadays I would not dare to work like that.

Regards
niki


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## GaryK

Niki - I understand what you are saying. You have to do what you have to do.
I started out using a right tilt, but I had the room to move the fence to the left of the blade.
Now that I have a left tilt I don't really even think about it any more since my fence is always on the 
right of the blade.

Do they make left tilt's in the EU?

Another question, why do they want to blade to stop withing 10 seconds?
I don't understand that one. You are still going to have to wait X number of seconds before you get near
the blade.


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## niki

Hi Gary

Yes, they make also left tilt but the table saws like my class are usually right tilt like those
http://www.diytools.co.uk/diy/Main/sp-2-67-32555-sip-01332-10%22-cast-iron-table-saw.asp

http://www.screwfix.com/prods/97433/Power-Tools/Benchtop-Woodworking/Record-Power-TS250SB-Table-Saw#

http://www.tooled-up.com/Product.asp?PID=136560

http://www.tooled-up.com/Product.asp?PID=108029

http://www.screwfix.com/prods/87308/Power-Tools/Benchtop-Woodworking/Startrite-STA300-Sawbench-12

http://www.toolpage.co.uk/viewproduct.cfm?ProductID=271&CatID=28

And of course the big sliders like Felder and alike.

I think (but I'm not sure) that it's because those table saws are designed with sliding table in mind and to tilt to the left, the motor should be installed on the left which will impose some limitations as they want the sliding table as close as it can be to the blade.

The "Blade must stop within 10 seconds" was "born" from accidents survey…they discovered that many accidents happened because the worker did not wait till the blade stops (and sometimes with the noise around, maybe he was not aware that the blade is still rotating) and pushed his hand into the blade. It's true that you can cut your hand also on those 10 seconds but it makes big difference if you know that you have to wait only 10 seconds or 40~60 seconds till the blade stops (especially for un-patient guys…like me)...

On the pic, you can see my sliding table. The good think about it is that, I had to adjust it ones and after that it "clicks" on the lateral rails and it's "self aligning" when I lock it to the rails so it doesn't have to be installed all the time on the saw.

Another advantage of such a sliding table installation on rails is that, I can move the rails (and the sliding table) to the left and get more support for cutting wider (longer) sheets (on the pics, I'm using other kind of support because I was too lazy to move the rails).

Regards
niki


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## GaryK

Thanks niki.


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## niki

Hi Gary

I just found this Popularwoodworking article by Kelly Mehler that talks about the differences between the USA and the Euro saws….and the price tag…

He is also talking about left or right tilt.

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/articledisplay?id=14789

Best regards
niki


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## phb

I've been using both left and right tilt saws for longer than most would believe, so I won't say how long. I also have done work on a right tilt in the film industry that most carpenters would never believe. And now just recently was confronted by two other instructors at the College where I teach carpentry about beveling with the fence to the right on a right tilt saw (while I safely beveled hundreds of feet of smart trim to be mitered as siding battens for a two story octagon building). I will say that there is absolutely no way that I would do it any other way on this saw. Moving the fence left is awkward as mentioned, and if you are right handed means that you are pushing the board through with your arm passing over the blade! I feel that fence right only helps hold the wood firmly in place between the fence, table and blade producing a much better cut, especially on long boards.


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## MonteCristo

Acouple of comments:

1) I think LJ MILES125 made a good point earlier in this thread. If the piece between the blade and the fence is sizable, there is basically no increased risk as long as basic care is taken.

2) I watched the video that LJ SUZ referred to within the thread http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/showthread.php?t=2970. IMO the guy on this video is an idiot. Look at the push stick he is using. That's a style that was tossed out years ago as it does nothing to hold the wood onto the table. In one of his cuts you can see the wood rising off the table !!! Also, he fails to recognize the fact that with his short fence he has almost no control of the piece as the pushstick end of the piece reaches the end of his short fence. If he had a decent push stick that allowed him to hold the workpiece firmly against the fence, he would be way better off than using his stupid short fence ! You can't get kickback if you keep the workpiece oriented correctly !


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## TedW

Now I get it.. because the fence does not extend to the back of the blade, so there is no fence at that point to push the wood into the back of the blade. The purpose of the short fence has nothing to do with pinching between the blade and the fence, but only serves to allow space for a push stick.

I always looked at the length of the fence beyond the blade as being necessary, to keep the lumber in a straight line. But I guess that's not the case-by the time the blade reaches that part of the fence, it's already been cut. It's the fence before the blade which keeps the lumber in a straight line.

Pardon me for repeating what's already been discussed… just my way of clarifying it to myself. Carry on, mate.


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