# Miter saws with no/less back of saw space requirement



## Smorgasbord (Dec 1, 2018)

In the typical SCMS (Sliding Compound Miter Saw) the bars are attached to the saw head and so the bars slide back as the saw head slides back. This creates problems for people wanting to setup a miter saw station against a wall in a shop, not on a portable stand at a job site. This has changed, and is still changing. I originally went with a "plain" chop saw (non-sliding) which has meant limited width capacity, so am looking to upgrade. Weight is not an issue for me since this saw will be semi-permanently mounted in an appropriate station along a long shop wall.

The Festool Kapex was (I think) the first to have fixed bars that extend *forward* (towards the operator), so the saw head slides on the bars, thus no extra rear clearance is needed. This saw gets good accuracy reviews, has a vernier cursor and can cut 50 degrees to the left and 60 to the right, but there have been a large number of motor burnout reports, it needs blades with a non-US-standard bore, and it's crazy expensive. It's also a 10" saw, and so has some size limitations compared to 12" bladed saws. The bevel adjustment knob is front and center, and is very nice.

A few or more years back Bosch came out with what they call their "Glide" miter saws. These are also informally referred to as "Knuckle" based saws. Instead of two round poles that slide these saws have 2 perpendicular folding mechanisms that enable the saw to extend. One mechanism folds vertically while the other folds horizontally, with the effect being that the saw extends linearly. Bosch has both a 10" model (GCM10S) and a 12" model (GCM12SD). The 10" model doesn't get good reviews overall, while the 12" gets polarized reviews: some great, some lousy. The 12" model is now reasonably priced. Capacity is good, although the vertical height on the cutoff (right) side is somewhat limited due to the belt housing. Bevel adjustment clamps are at the front, but no micro-adjust. There is no laser on the US version of the saw, but for $50 Bosch makes a replacement blade washer with a a laser (but that means you have to spin the blade to see the light, and the light is only on the left side of the cut).

Last year Hitachi came out with a "bar forward" 12" miter saw (C12RSH12). The saw it replaces was a sliding bar model, which had micro-adjustments for miter and bevel that were eliminated with this new saw. While the bars don't slide back, they are mounted extending towards the rear so I think this saw doesn't really save enough space over typical SCMSs. Additionally, the bevel lock knob is at the back of the saw, so you can't even mount it right against the wall since you have to get your hand back there to adjust it. This saw has a laser, and while you can adjust the position, as you move the saw into the cut the line disappears.

Makita has had a 10" "bar forward" miter saw (LS1019l) on the market for a year or so. From what I've read, the bars tend to not be aligned properly, and so people have taken to loosening the assembly screws to tweak the bards appropriately. Makita just came out with a 12" version (LS1219l), that's so new I haven't read a review from anyone who actually owns it.

There is a complexity with sliding miter saws that regular chop saws don't have - and that is that the blade may not be perfectly parallel to the sliding path. Many people talking about SCMS alignment don't seem to understand this and why it means you shouldn't measure the blade to the fence angle, but actually take test cuts.

The best way to set the 90 degree miter angle stop is with the 4-cut method. There are some videos on this, but Festool's Kapex manual, (which is available on line at https://www.festoolusa.com/-/media/tts/festool/festool-usa/downloads/manuals/kapex-ks120-supplemental-manual.pdf ) describes how to do this on page 24. Essentially, you cut a square piece of wood four times, rotating the cut edge to lie against the fence for the next cut. After the 4th cut, you take the off-cut piece and measure width at each end with a dial caliper. The difference is 4 times the angle error. Festool's calibration target is 0.16 degrees, btw. This tells me that even the Festool isn't as accurate as a good crosscut slide on a tablesaw - but that sled may be impractical for boards more than 4-5 feet long, not to mention additional setup time. BTW, you can do the same 4-cut thing for zeroing the bevel angle as well.

Note that this also applies to tablesaw miter gauges. I can't count the number of videos showing people putting a square against the tablesaw's blade teeth to the miter fence. This is wrong as it compounds the error of the miter gauge slot to the blade into the cutoff angle. If you want to prove it to yourself, intentionally misalign your tablesaw's blade to miter slots by a lot. Now, use your square to set the miter gauge fence 90 degrees to the miter gauge bar, and then make a cut. You'll see that the cut comes out square, even though the cut profile is off from the miter slot to blade angle. This is also how you get square cuts on bandsaws and router tables with miter gauges.

Where this creates a problem for sliding miter saws is when you use them in chop mode instead of sliding mode. If you lock the slide in place and then swing down to make the cut, you may get a different angle than if you move the blade out in front of the workpiece and then slid it back to make the cut. Again, this is because the blade may not be perfectly parallel to the sliding path. I don't know of *any* saw that has an adjustment for this. I'd suggest aligning your saw for the widest capacity sliding cuts and then always use the sliding action, not chopping action, for your cuts even of narrower boards.

Another thing that hurts the sliding saws is deflection at full extension. Chop saws don't have this nearly as much since they don't have cantilevered arms (or knuckles in the case of Bosch). If you go to an unplugged SCMS and push on the handle, you can always create some visually noticeable play in the blade against the table. Some saws may be more rigid than others, with chop saws typically being the best - but that limits your width capacity. Again, a cross cut sled on a tablesaw won't deflect nearly as much, but angles are harder and long work pieces are unwieldy. The 4-cut method has an advantage that since it's you doing the cutting with sliding, if you always use the same arm motion you'll get very similar deflection profiles and so this method adjusts much of that out. Bevel angles and thicker pieces will affect final accuracy, though.

One final note is that for the 12" saws, particularly with thin kerf blades, blade deflection can noticeably affect accuracy. Just putting a Forrest on my old DeWalt chop saw improved its accuracy, especially if you're trimming just a hair (less than a kerf thickness) off a board.

Anyway, where I am in my search to replace my trusty old DeWalt 705 (which will be up for sale soon), is that I'm leaning towards the Bosch 12" glider. I'm going to see if any store local to me as the Makita 12" bar forward saw. Let me know your thoughts and experiences.


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## therealSteveN (Oct 29, 2016)

I had heard of a Bosch Glide a few years before the Kapex. Festool has a lot of tools introduced in Europe for a while before here, so it's possible they were made longer, but Bosch leaps into Europe as well. I do think one or the other of them was first in the space saver line.

I am thinking Delta also has a space saver as well, the Cruzer, though they have seemingly forever lost their place in the marketing chain, due to crappy choices with product lines since being bought by B&D. CHANG TYPE Industrial Co., Ltd. has it's work cut out for a Chinese company to bring back to greatness what Delta once was as a tool making giant. IOW they aren't on anyone's radar as good tools anymore.

The Makita doesn't save any space, they say their shorter bars just stop deflection more than a longer bar, which would be true. It's also why a miter saw, especially a sliding, articulated, or other word for it's action never really does give accurate, or repeatable cuts like a TS and a sled can, this provided the sled is well made, and has no slop. The miter saws have so many moving parts they tend to wag like a dogs tail, especially in those who yank the blade through.


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## Gene01 (Jan 5, 2009)

My Bosch Glider has been going great for over five years. It's used every day. It hasn't lost a fraction of a degree of accuracy at any angle of which it's capable.


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## jimintx (Jan 23, 2014)

I went to the 12" Bosch and love everything about it. I do not have even one thing to complain about with this machine.

My old Dewalt 12" compound miter - not a slider - was about to go up for local sale, when I decided it was just very nice to have to to take outside the shop and use in other locations. Now I am often quite happy to have it, and use it, but I don't have a good place for it to be stored. It sits behind my table saw, and I have to step over it or around to from time to time. ;-D


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## BobNY (Sep 29, 2018)

+1 for the Bosch Glider. I bought the 12" a few months ago. It was spot on out of the box and has performed flawlessly since I got it.


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## Smorgasbord (Dec 1, 2018)

> The Makita doesn t save any space, they say their shorter bars just stop deflection more than a longer bar, which would be true.


Makita's product page (https://www.makitatools.com/products/details/LS1219L ) says: "Unique 2-Steel Rail Sliding System design offers single slide-glide operation; reduced saw footprint allows operation flush against a wall."

The Makitta's 60 degree max miter angle is larger than the Bosch. I like that the Bosch fence has slotted holes for attaching sacrificial fences. Without a review of the Makita, however, it's going to be hard for me to know which is more accurate. I would rather not buy both and then have to return the less accurate saw.



> It's also why a miter saw, especially a sliding, articulated, or other word for it's action never really does give accurate, or repeatable cuts like a TS and a sled can


I build everything from jewlery boxes and picture frame to furniture to house trim. Tablesaw sleds are great for small to medium size things, but not so great for really long and/or heavy pieces of wood, such as the stiles on a full size entry door or 17' long crown or baseboard molding.

I believe my expectations are in line with the capabilities - and my primary concern is choosing between the Bosch and Makita 12" saws, based primarily on accuracy.


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## therealSteveN (Oct 29, 2016)

I've never seen this Makita. I just have read reviews. Nobody here has carried Makita much since they put out a lot of low quality tools back in the 90's

I know Chris Marshall, and he doesn't say stuff like that if it's not what he heard. I think what you have is some flowery review done by a Makita copy writer, who is paid to make it sing and dance. but likely has never laid hands on the tool itself.

It doesn't really save space - the saw measures about 26-1⁄2″ from the table's front legs to the back of the posts when extended - but Makita says shorter posts help ensure against deflection

I'm happy for you if you feel a miter saw is high tech. I and countless others just view them as rough cut off tools.


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## kajunkraft (May 7, 2012)

Have had Bosch 12" glider for about 3 years and am completely satisfied.
Before purchasing read many reviews. Too heavy - no problem, it's going to stay in my shop. Poor dust collection - no problem; haven't seen a miter saw yet with great dust collection. Too expensive - no problem; a good tool is worth it (Festool ?). But no reviews citing poor cut quality, blade deflection, motor failure or problems with glide mechanism. Any time I have used a saw with laser it was just distracting, so don't miss that. Have checked for square and seems fine. It's not unusual to sometimes have to tweak some part of a build anyway.


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## DustyM (May 16, 2016)

I have the Delta Cruzer 10" and really like it (no, not as accurate as the Dewalt 12" non-slider it replaced, but this is for wide boards and plywood; miters are cut on a TS sled). However, I got it for about half the normal price when they introduced them last year. I think they're back to being comparable in cost to the Bosch, in which case I'd vote Bosch.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

I have an old B&D 10" chop saw and it is as accurate as a chop saw can be. I bought it new and it cost less than $100. It has served me well all these years. I don't see any reason to replace it. I have all kinds of saws in my shop, so if I want accuracy, I use my table saw and sled. The chop saw is used for rough cuts like on 2×4's. There are too many moving parts on a SCMS for it to be a precision cutting machine. The more moving parts involved, the less accuracy you will get. That is a plain and simple fact of machines.


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## Smorgasbord (Dec 1, 2018)

> I think what you have is some flowery review done by a Makita copy writer, who is paid to make it sing and dance. but likely has never laid hands on the tool itself.


No, what's going on here is that you're confusing 2015 models with sliding rails (as in that old Marshall review article) with the newer 2017/2018 models with a different design involving fixed forward facing rails. All the models I'm discussing in this thread *do* save space behind the saw. Check out my earlier link for not only "flowery" descriptions, but pictures and dimensions.


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## Blindhog (Jul 13, 2015)

Another vote for the Bosch 12" glider. I've had it for two years now and as others have stated, it works flawlessly right out of the box. I continue to be impressed with its accuracy.


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## jimintx (Jan 23, 2014)

> ... ... I believe my expectations are in line with the capabilities - and my primary concern is choosing between the Bosch and Makita 12" saws, based primarily on accuracy.
> - Smorgasbord


This quoted sentence you wrote seems to sum up the real question you have posed. You have refined it down to the question: you want to get an accuracy comparison between the "Bosch and Makita 12" saws".

You asked about the Makita LS1019L, which is a 10" saw, and is newly offered. There are not many reviews of it, and it seems that few people have actually seen that one. On the Toolnut site, it has 8 reviews and most like it a lot, while a couple express disappointment.

The competing Bosch 12" knuckle saw is widely reviewed with favorable comments, yet there are reviews that have cons to point out. It is true to say that such mixed comments are the case for essentially every woodworking tool that exists.

It is my own opinion that you are seeking a degree of accuracy that doesn't really exist in one miter saw for all wood-cutting uses "from jewlery boxes and picture frame to furniture to house trim", which might include "17' long crown or baseboard molding".

At this point you are facing a decision to select a saw for a very wide array of uses, based on your own assessment of the two options. Maybe you already have a standing opinion of the two brands involved. Most of us do have brands we like and tend to trust, and others we skip over.

Whatever you select, I hope you will come back to this thread and let us know your findings abut it. If you choose the new Makita we will all want to know about it. If it is the Bosch, it will be a saw that already has a huge fan base, and no one would say it was ill-conceived to pick that model.


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## YesHaveSome (Sep 10, 2017)

I'd be weary of the Makita. The Wood Whisperer got one and it had a flaw that wouldnt allow a straight cut. He sent it back and got another and it had the same problem. The issue was that the bars werent straight. You could set the blade to 90 but the bars angled oh so slightly. They may have fixed it but figured I'd pass it along.

I have the Bosch glide and it's a nice saw. The dust collection is non existent though.


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## Smorgasbord (Dec 1, 2018)

> You asked about the Makita LS1019L, which is a 10" saw, and is newly offered.


Actually, the model I'm considering is the 12" version that's even newer: model #LS1219l

Local store to me has the Bosch on special, so I may be tempted this weekend to try it and have the 30 day money back refund policy in case.


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## ramatsu (Dec 2, 2017)

One request for info, along with 4 or 6 cents on other stuff: The key space-saving measurement for me would be the distance from the face of the fence to the back of the machine - basically, to the wall + a skosh. I would love to see that in a table comparing these space-saving CMSs.

The next thing I'd like to know is the max cut depth, for 2x and 4x. But either would be fine if everyone published apples to apples specs for this. I've tentatively assumed that when they publish a 90 degree max cut, they are talking about 2x lumber unless specified, but I wish they would just state that if so. (I suspect there are some measurements dealing with crown molding that I may regret not caring about, but I'd take just those 2 for now.)

Then, accuracy. I blindly don't worry much about Festool based on my experience with them, and am reassured by the positive reviews by long-term owners of the Bosch Glide saws that the seemingly overly complex design didn't trump the quality results I'm used to seeing from that brand. I was concerned about the Festool cut depth since it's a 10" saw, along with the fact that I could buy both the Makita and the Bosch for the same money, and still get use from the 12" blades I have.

BTW, I bought Milwaukee's first iteration of their 12-in CMS, because the Taunton reviewers loved it and said it had the second-best dust control they'd seen behind the Kapex. I loved that saw and while you were definitely going to sweep up some dust, dust control really was pretty good. I don't think anything short of the bonkers custom build hoods you find on YouTube will really leave any CMS area clean. Alas, the Milwaukee was just too big and heavy to lug around to sites easily (not helped by my extremely heavy Dewalt stand - felt like well over 100lbs together). And too far from the wall for a permanent place in my tiny home shop. That's how I landed here.

I'll check out the wood whisperer's experience with the Makita, too, in case there's any updates. I've read that the alignment issues on that can be adjusted so they're true, which Mark may not have tried or known about. I get the impression that it's not a feature, just something some owners figured out how to do.

Good to read there's one more option if Hitachi (Metabo?) has a shallow saw too, or maybe not from the comment here. Off to try to find that elusive front-of-fence to wall spec on all of these. If you have any of those machines and could measure that distance and post that measurement here, I'd be grateful!

Oh, PS - anyone have a tuned-up classic Dewalt radial-am saw? Proponents say they are more precise than CMSs, and largely lost favor due to portability issues. Lots of commercial shop work still being done on these.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

Essentially, for a saw to take up less space at the back of the saw, you are looking at a RAS.


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

You're not going to find a perfect one, so give up on that idea.

I have a Bosch axial its good, but not perfect.

The blade does make a difference.


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## Smorgasbord (Dec 1, 2018)

I ended up with the Bosch 12" (GCM12SD) and bought the laser washer thing.
Like everyone says, it's pretty good. I find it's more accurate if the piece is narrow enough that I can slide the blade fully out, then lower the blade, and then slide it in. If I use it like a non-sliding chopsaw the cuts are slightly less accurate.

If the pieces are small, I can use my homebuilt sliding table on top of the tablesaw for uber-accuracy, but for big pieces (like 8' tall door stiles) I don't have much other choice.

I used the 4/5 cut square method to align it. Never got accuracy perfect as the cut inconsistency was larger than my measurable error.


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## WilsonLR (Oct 21, 2021)

Interesting and helpful article/discussion. Makita GSL line is new and 40v single battery. They seem to have responded to user feedback and shifted from laser to shadow line, replaced aluminum detent plate with steel and improved DC using dual dust collection ports.The BOSCH knuckle glider has laser on it's 18v variants. It strikes me as ironic that these bar-forward designs are an evolutionary step (back?) toward the age old RAS design. And the Makita dual dust DC is exactly what I had on my 60's Dewalt 925 RAS with a port on the blade guard and a catcher in the bacl. LOL


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## WilsonLR (Oct 21, 2021)

duplicate post.


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## DougC (Mar 10, 2011)

Love my Bosch 12" glide!!!!


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## bobfromsanluis (Jul 23, 2016)

I bought the Makita LS1019L about a year ago, was expecting good things in reduced noise and better saw dust capture, along with not needing a huge area behind the saw. Mine was nice and true right out of the box, set up was quick and not complicated. Bonus points to Makita for the blade that came with it, just about as good as a Forrest. Most people don't talk about the noise of miter saws, Makita not only has soft start, but they have electronic speed control with the motor spinning at a lower than most RPM, which does reduce the noise of the machine fairly well. The cut capacity is amazing at how large a piece it will cut, and the wide swath of extreme angles it can cut (60 degrees). I recently cut some decorative moulding for a furniture piece, mitered the cuts to attach them on the outside, and everything lined up very nicely. My saw came with the main point of vacuuming out the saw dust right at the back edge of the saw, and if your D/C or shop vac hose is fairly rigid, you have to allow for that in how close you can place it to the wall. The current models seem to have changed the saw dust ports (there are two on the saw, one draws from the blade housing at the top back of it, there is another shroud at the bottom rear with a hose that connects to the two ports together). These dust ports on the newer versions of the 10" now have the same ones the 12" have, port and hose at the back of the saw, hose connecting to the top of the saw where it connects to your D/C or shop vac. I went online and ordered the parts for both points off of the 12" saw and they fit my 10" saw perfectly. All that said, even hooked up 4' from my 1 1/2 hp D/C system, it still lets a lot of saw dust get away. I'm just about ready to build a new stand for the miter saw, going to construct it with top having numerous holes in the top where the saw will sit, with a down draft type funnel system built in, hooked up to the D/C system, hoping this will improve the dust pickup. And one note of caution- if you swing the saw around to an extreme miter angle and you also tilt the saw for a compound cut, be sure to remove the opposing side rear fence so you don't cut into it, a lesson I learned the hard way.


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## WilsonLR (Oct 21, 2021)

@bobfromsanluis How's the 90° accuracy when chopping without the slide? Curved cuts when using the slide?


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## bobfromsanluis (Jul 23, 2016)

I use my miter saw a lot for 90º cutting, a lot of maple blocks in various widths, it's pretty dead on. I've never attempted a curved cut on a miter saw, I usually use my bandsaw or scroll saw for curves; perhaps you mean angle cuts with the depth of needing to slide? The saw is pretty dead on, I've got in mounted firmly and always have the stock well braced, and never rush the cut, so I'm very happy with the results. I keep it locked out of sliding mode unless I actually need to cut a wider board.


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## WilsonLR (Oct 21, 2021)

Thanks Bob. What I should have worded my post better but you answered my questions. What I meant is that some sliders move a little during the slide cutting and the cut has a slight curve (either way) to it. I'm looking for something reliably/repeatably precise when chopping and capable of a straight sliding cut (with skill) when sliding. This is for times my TS has a dado stack, tilted etc. What you've described sounds perfect. Thanks.


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