# INPUT NEEDED: sold my first table but legs are uneven- why?



## TennisLvr (May 4, 2019)

I just sold my first piece of furniture and the legs don't touch the floor at the sellers house. I'm so embarrassed. I need help figuring out how to make sure this doesn't happen next build.

Okay, I triple measured the legs to make sure they were all the same size & I squared the corners.

The only thing I can think of is that one of the boards four 2×8 top pieces may have been slightly warped and that is pulling the bottom frame up in some areas. Another contributing factor could be that I stored it in my garage/workshop over past 3-weeks waiting for pick-up with the sun directly hitting the right side when I had the garage door up while working on other projects. About four days ago, I noticed one corner of the table top had moved because the wood filler was raised and it separated from one side of the wood. I covered the table to block the sun but it was too late.

Also, I live in a rental and the entire garage floor is uneven. Another factor (?) , the table legs rested on an uneven surface for 3 weeks and not on leveled scraps of wood. Would that make the boards shift making the table uneven?

Common sense told me to level my two saw horses and constructed the table on them, which I did. I knew that the legs wouldn't sit level on the garage floor & I made sure the table was square, so I wasn't concerned.

The buyers have all six legs on spacers that I made just in case. Not good for sales! LOL

How can I ensure that my builds are level when building large pieces of furniture on an uneven garage floor?

I buy my lumber from Lowe's & take the time to pick wood that isn't warped but it's hard because most wood is warped to some degree.

How do I prevent a top lumber from pulling the legs up?

I welcome your comments and advice. Any feedback is GREATLY appreciated!


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## hkmiller (Mar 6, 2018)

Is the floor level at the buyer's house?


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## JADobson (Aug 14, 2012)

> Is the floor level at the buyer s house?
> 
> - hkmiller


+1.

When I build a table levelling the legs is the last thing I do and I do it in the spot the table is going to live. I use wedges to get the table level and then a pencil set on a block to match the shortest leg. Trace around each long leg and then trim with a handsaw and chamfer the edges with a block plane. Then your table should be rock solid.


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## TennisLvr (May 4, 2019)

Yes, they sent me a video to show me


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## CWWoodworking (Nov 28, 2017)

Anything with middle leg(s) need levelers.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

I usually keep an extra sheet of 3/4 MDF i use as a flat assembly floor in my garagw since the concrete is pretty bad. Do you have winding sticks to check for twist on the top? Also check with an ACCURATE square that your cuts are square, and as mentioned, bevel the edges of the legs. Even a couple degrees off on cuts can cause all kinds of havoc especially when different angles on different sides multiplied by 6 legs(the more legs the more chance for this to happen)


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## JADobson (Aug 14, 2012)

My method above will still work even if the floor is level.


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## TennisLvr (May 4, 2019)

Thank you for the feedback! I posted pics from the video they sent me. Looks like the two middle legs are short and the left front & and right back legs are the longest.

The pencil on block method is something that I'm going to try.

In keeping with 'there are no dumb questions'…




































Can I use shims from Lowe's as wedges?
How can I make sure to cut a straight line for each leg (2×6) using my hand saw because the leg is attached to the table? I don't want to inadvertently make the problem worse :/

I hope to develop a network of woodworkers that I can go to whenever I experience situations like this.

I also think that I over-tightened the tip boards to in trying to make it as level as possible. I read online that that could be a contributing factor too.


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## CWWoodworking (Nov 28, 2017)

Skip the shims and put levelers on it. This will permanently solve the issue. Even if you shim now, do you want them calling you when they decide to move it to a different room? Also levelers looks more professional than shims.


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## JADobson (Aug 14, 2012)

HEre is a video of Chris Schwarz levelling a stool: https://www.popularwoodworking.com/article/video-level-the-feet-of-a-chair-or-sawbench/


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## LeeRoyMan (Feb 23, 2019)

Looks like you used construction grade lumber? If so it is going to move. The top will push and pull and the legs will always be changing. *Cutting is fine until it moves again, or they move it to a different spot.* Best way to fix is with adjustable feet.


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## JADobson (Aug 14, 2012)

The shims aren't permanent. They are just there to lock the table into level while you mark the long bits that need to be trimmed.

And a table with no levellers is much more professional looking than one with them.

This is a fairly simple technique. Just go for it!


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## LeeRoyMan (Feb 23, 2019)

> And a table with no levellers is much more professional looking than one with them.
> 
> - JADobson


(disagree) jmo


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## TennisLvr (May 4, 2019)

I don't have winding stick but looks like I need to get some!


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

MDF is dead flat. If you want to know if it's the table, or the floor, set it on a sheet of 3/4" MDF.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

Maybe it's an illusion but the top looks warped which could be a symptom or the cause. The best insurance against wonky legs is using good quality dry material and tried and true construction methods. What you have looks like something from Ana White who knows less than Jon Snow about design and wood movement. Put levelers on this one and strive to build a better version next time.


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## JCamp (Nov 22, 2016)

Use the levelers that leeroyman shows. Even if u get it level where they have it once they decide to move it elsewhere it will need adjusted again. I'd say the floor is not level at their house (honestly I don't know if I've ever seen a house floor that is perfect) or the floor that you built it on is off. Either way the adjustable levelers will fix the problem


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## TennisLvr (May 4, 2019)

You all ROCK ~ I really appreciate all of your input!

@JADobson: Thanks for the great video link! It really helped. I found another video that explains how to prep lumber by hand and it demonstrates how to use winding sticks. Stock Prep by Hand w/Christopher Schwarz

@Woodknack, The plans are by Shanty2Chic The plans are fairly basic. I want to learn "tried & true" methods but I have been unsuccessful in locating any such classes/workshop in my local area. I'm in El Paso and the closest workshops are towards Dallas and Austin. Hollomon AFB is somewhat close and they have a woodshop you can use for $5 p/hr. Perhaps I can set up construction lessons w/one of the employees.

Considering all of the table's issues (construction-grade wood, wood warped, legs uneven, top not level), what tools/equipment do you recommend for my Lowe's/HD shopping list? I have basic stuff like large small speed squares & large/small L-squares.
- winding sticks
-Various size levellers 
- 3/4" MDF -Would this work for my 3/4" MDF? Lowe's MDF

Would a bench top planer solve most of the issues with the warped wood & uneven sides of construction grade lumber? If so, what's the best planer that cuts both the top & sides in one pass?

Regarding hand planers, can you recommend a versatile size and model/type for construction lumber projects like this table?


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> Skip the shims and put levelers on it. This will permanently solve the issue. Even if you shim now, do you want them calling you when they decide to move it to a different room? Also levelers looks more professional than shims.
> 
> - CWWoodworking


I was going to mention levelers as well but it looks like it 3/4 material? I haven't used levelers on stock that thin. But I agree those do work well and will be adjustable when the owners move the table in 3 month and the next time they move it etc.


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## therealSteveN (Oct 29, 2016)

> The shims aren't permanent. They are just there to lock the table into level while you mark the long bits that need to be trimmed.
> 
> And a table with no levellers is much more professional looking than one with them.
> 
> ...


I'm in agreement that on most table legs that come to some sort of sharp terminus they are much better looking without any form of hardware. These legs are not that, and levelers in this case would be the most expedient way to get to level. A T Nut to hold an elevator bolt centered in those legs would disappear unless you used them to add as much height as possible.

I suppose a piece of MDF could be brought to the buyers home to lie on the floor. If it was dead flat, the table is problematic, if it rocks their floor is, and this would make selling them on the shim idea much easier.

I would take a piece of MDF, and try it on my shop floor to check for level, no matter how you handle the table. If it sits SPLAT, not moving no matter where you try to tip it, Then it's good to go. Actually few floors are this way though.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> I suppose a piece of MDF could be brought to the buyers home to lie on the floor. If it was dead flat, the table is problematic, if it rocks their floor is, and this would make selling them on the shim idea much easier.
> 
> - therealSteveN


I wasn't suggesting she take a sheet over there. The idea is to have a known flat surface in your shop to check against. If it's a chair, your table saw would work. For larger items like this table, I know my bench is dead flat, but without it, I'd go the MDF route. My kitchen island is granite and dead flat, so that would work too. I could even take down my sliding glass door and use the glass panel to check (nah, just kidding about that one).

I guess the point is that it makes no sense to level your table if you don't know whether you're doing it on an even surface. No different than checking square with a square that might be off.


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## CWWoodworking (Nov 28, 2017)

The gather sign is the key.

It is 100% proof that the table will get moved to another room sooner than later. Next year there new "blessed" sign will be the new buzz word. Except that the blessed sign they like doesn't match the table, and they want you to build a black one. They love the old one so there using it in there other room.

In all seriousness, I don't put levelers on any 4 legged table. But something with a middle leg it is a necessity.

That table looks like about 6-7 foot? Something is gonna be a little off and the middle leg can become a fulcrum point.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> The gather sign is the key.
> 
> - CWWoodworking


If they'd had the foresight to put up one of those "Believe" signs, then they might have believed the table was level. Seems pretty obvious to me.


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## CWWoodworking (Nov 28, 2017)

> If they d had the foresight to put up one of those "Believe" signs, then they might have believed the table was level. Seems pretty obvious to me.
> 
> - Rich


That's 2021's word.

I'm such a hypocrite when it comes to these words cause I have to make them tomorrow. Lol.


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## therealSteveN (Oct 29, 2016)

> I suppose a piece of MDF could be brought to the buyers home to lie on the floor. If it was dead flat, the table is problematic, if it rocks their floor is, and this would make selling them on the shim idea much easier.
> 
> - therealSteveN
> 
> ...


Without giving her further information save a sheet of MDF is flat, what was she to do with that? If you din't have a flat bench, or floor, what would you do with just the words a sheet of MDF is dead flat? Or are you good at levitation?

I was at least giving her a suggestion so she might move forward, with the words a sheet of MDF is dead flat.

I'm guessing you couldn't comprehend the hard words in the remainder of what I said. But instead you did the TROLL quote thing. Picking apart just a few words, rather than the entire content. If not a troll, then I can only assume the rest of what I typed was over your level of reading comprehension

"I would take a piece of MDF, and try it on my shop floor to check for level, no matter how you handle the table. If it sits SPLAT, not moving no matter where you try to tip it, Then it's good to go. Actually few floors are this way though.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> If you din't have a flat bench, or floor, what would you do with just the words a sheet of MDF is dead flat? Or are you good at levitation?
> 
> [...]
> 
> ...


First, levitation has nothing to do with it. There are simple steps to level legs if you are on a flat surface. The flat surface is critical though. It's called a plane and is an element of geometry that is fundamental to woodworking, just as having a known good square is fundamental and a known unit of length that you can count on. Some, such as the right angle, can be derived from others, like a unit of length. Basic stuff.

What a shame you stoop to comments about "comprehending the hard words." Calling me a troll. *Nowhere, and I repeat, nowhere in that post did I criticize you.*

Length, right angle and the notion of a plane are all important in woodworking. Because I have an engineering degree, I take measurement standards for granted, and I understand the systems and relationships that they are based on. They probably don't teach that in nursing school.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> That's 2021's word.
> 
> I'm such a hypocrite when it comes to these words cause I have to make them tomorrow. Lol.
> 
> - CWWoodworking


That stuff sells. You'd be crazy not to give folks what they want, and it looks like you do it well. More power to you.


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## BuckeyeDennis (Mar 24, 2019)

> You all ROCK ~ I really appreciate all of your input!
> 
> @JADobson: Thanks for the great video link! It really helped. I found another video that explains how to prep lumber by hand and it demonstrates how to use winding sticks. Stock Prep by Hand w/Christopher Schwarz
> 
> ...


For a great tutorial on furniture making, watch Charles Neil's free 25-episode YouTube video series on building a pie safe. The series is so long because Charles explains just about every step in the process, in great detail. Just the first couple of episodes would answer a lot of your questions, and there's nothing in the entire series that a furniture maker doesn't need to know. When I was a beginning woodworker, I would consume an episode every night or two.

Fair warning: Charles speaks rather slowly, so it's also a great cure for insomnia!

Here's a link to the first episode:


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## jeffswildwood (Dec 26, 2012)

What an interesting problem. I like the style but think levelers (the best choice) will take away from the design. However, it needs the wobble taken out of it. Cutting the legs would be difficult to get then dead even with a little on this leg now a little on this leg. Tough to get right. I gather your customer wants it fixed correct? Maybe an option is to use both. Get the legs as close as possible, cut some 45's on them and then put the levelers. That way levelers will be more incorporated in the style.


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## GR8HUNTER (Jun 13, 2016)

> *Fair warning: Charles speaks rather slowly, so it's also a great cure for insomnia!*
> 
> Here's a link to the first episode:
> 
> ...


thats how they live in the south nice and slow paced :<))))


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> For a great tutorial on furniture making, watch Charles Neil's free 25-episode YouTube video series on building a pie safe.
> 
> - BuckeyeDennis


I've recommended those videos many times. What's great about them is that you don't even have to be planning to build a pie safe. Everything he teaches is applicable to any furniture or cabinet project.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

Some good advice above. I looked at the plans you used and that is just going to be a problem with that design, especially if you just used the typical construction grade lumber from Home Depot or Lowes. Even if you can fix it today, it could warp again as the weather or humidity changes throughout the year, especially if they use a swamp cooler in your dry El Paso summers. With a perfectly level floor it may work out okay but if there is any unevenness, you are likely to eventually get some flex in those pocket hole joints, especially if there is anything heavy on it.

To understand what went wrong, you probably need to go see it in its environment but before you drive over, you could first ask them to put the other side against the wall or simply move it to a different spot to see if the same legs are off the floor. If not, the floor may be the biggest culprit. If you go over to see for yourself, take a level, some shims and a measuring tape. First, check to see if the top is flat. You may be able to simply get down and sight along the table top to see if you can see any obvious bowing. Use a level and shim to make sure that it takes the same amount of shimming side to side in several places on both sides of the center legs. Do the same thing front to back. Use a measuring tape just to verify that the distance from the bottom of each leg to the top is the same. If you see any problems either with the level or sighting by eye, you know that it is a design and construction issue. Even if the floor is not level, it should be able to support its own weight without warping. Look for gaps between the boards where the pocket holes are holding things together (I assume you used glue on all joints?). If still no problems, check to see if the floor is level, checking in multiple directions and on both sides of the middle legs. Use the shim to get the bubble centered so you know how unlevel it is and then do that on the top of the table to see if it is the same. The floor could be different front to back, side to side and even on either side of the center legs, especially if that is an older house with a pier and beam foundation.

If it turns out not be a problem with just an uneven floor, your best bet may be to offer to refund their money and take it back and chalk it up as a learning experience as you watch the videos recommended above.

Welcome to lumberjocks, by the way!


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## TennisLvr (May 4, 2019)

Thanks for the great input!


I knew the MDF was meant to provide a flat surface on the floor for large builds


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## TennisLvr (May 4, 2019)




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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Thanks for the great input!
> 
> 
> I knew the MDF was meant to provide a flat surface on the floor for large builds
> ...


I figured you would. It's sad that we have people on here who just like to try to cause trouble and otherwise provide no useful input. Unlike me, who occasionally causes trouble but is a frequent source of valuable info


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## tomsteve (Jan 23, 2015)

> Would a bench top planer solve most of the issues with the warped wood & uneven sides of construction grade lumber? If so, what s the best planer that cuts both the top & sides in one pass?
> 
> Regarding hand planers, can you recommend a versatile size and model/type for construction lumber projects like this table?
> 
> - TennisLvr


welp, to get the wood faces square and true, ya really need a jointer and a planer. running wood through a planer without first jointing one face to make it flat will transfer a twist or bow into the now thinner lumber. typically one face is ran across the jointer to get it flat, then through the planer to get both faces parallel. with the width, running an edge across the jointer, then rip to width on a table saw makes the width consistent along the length.
you could still run into problems as construction grade lumber with the high moisture content of it.

one more thing:
you might want to think about a construction and assembly table. it is much easier than workin on the ground.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

As Tomsteve said, you really should have a jointer AND a planer to get a nice flat board but you can get by with just a planer if you make yourself a jointer sled for the planer like this. That project includes a sled to use on the table saw to joint the edge and a sled for the planer to joint the faces. There are probably some good youtube videos on this as well.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

> Thanks for the great input!
> 
> 
> I knew the MDF was meant to provide a flat surface on the floor for large builds
> ...


BTW, you might want to put a coat of polyurethane on the MDF and a top coat of paste wax on top to help prevent accidentally gluing your work piece to the MDF.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

For one thing, I don't like tables with more than 4 legs; it makes it impossible to level. If that is what the customer wanted, so be it. For that table, I would have eliminated the middle legs and move the end legs in towards each other by 9 to 12 inches. This gives a much more pleasant looking table IMHO. I don't like the wide legs. Square legs look much better, again IMHO. Trying to please a customer is one of the worst things you have to contend with in any business.


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## sgcz75b (Jan 21, 2019)

> For a great tutorial on furniture making, watch Charles Neil's free 25-episode YouTube video series on building a pie safe. The series is so long because Charles explains just about every step in the process, in great detail. Just the first couple of episodes would answer a lot of your questions, and there's nothing in the entire series that a furniture maker doesn't need to know. When I was a beginning woodworker, I would consume an episode every night or two.
> 
> Fair warning: Charles speaks rather slowly, so it's also a great cure for insomnia!
> 
> - BuckeyeDennis


Charles Neal is knowledgeable but you can take an hour of him and only get 10 minutes of meat. I'm hoping they'll be a Reader's Digest Charles Neal condensing him down from his homilies and meanderings to actual information. I fell asleep watching him on Youtube, woke up two hours later, and he was just finishing his sentence.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Charles Neal is knowledgeable but you can take an hour of him and only get 10 minutes of meat. I m hoping they ll be a Reader s Digest Charles Neal condensing him down from his homilies and meanderings to actual information. I fell asleep watching him on Youtube, woke up two hours later, and he was just finishing his sentence.
> 
> - sgcz75b


Charles can teach you more than you know. Maybe if you'd paid more attention you would have known that tung oil finish doesn't contain "finishers" because there's no such thing as "finishers."


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## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

Ummmm….. huh? You admitted over a month ago that the statement you made yesterday was wrong?


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## sgcz75b (Jan 21, 2019)

> Ummmm….. huh? You admitted over a month ago that the statement you made yesterday was wrong?
> 
> - HokieKen


Keep up, Ken. I admitted a month ago I was wrong in using the word 'finishers.' Have another scotch.


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## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

Ahhh . Thanks, that confused me. I'm not a Scotch guy but I'll have a beer since you suggested it )


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## Snipes (Apr 3, 2012)

I love these 6 legged tables gets everyone rialed up…


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