# wood working, and lumberjocks



## grizzman (May 10, 2009)

i had a posting about an hour ago and took it off, well im going to say what i feel anyway, everyone else does, im not looking for any fights or problems, but i want to say that i want to see lumberjocks back to a more peaceable WOOD WORKING SITE, because that is what it is, it started out that way and forums with POLITICS and RELIGION were not allowed, and why they are now i don't understand, Ive looked at these threads and see personal attacks, and just down right bad behavior of grown people, and to me its a black mark to this site, and to me i feel its not needed, and i want to see it change, we have lost many good wood workers over this very topic, and now have folks who are here to just discuss politics, so im just asking for others to support this if they feel the same way to say so, i understand we have many different people here who wont agree, that's fine, but im asking for some change, and im asking for the battling to stop, these topics are to volatile and it has proven so here. i ask for wood working only, and good personal interaction like what we use to have. ive been here for three years now and i feel a part of me is invested here, we the wood workers make or break this site, and i dont want any back alley fighting going on , i want to see the wonderful people that wood workers are.thanks lumber jocks for letting me have my say, and thanks for the hard work the owners do.


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## mojapitt (Dec 31, 2011)

Couldn't agree more. There are plenty of sites dedicated to the other topics. Let this be for our crafts and the beauty of it. That is the sole reason I came here.


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## cstrang (Sep 22, 2009)

Amen brother! (oops, that too much religion? lol) I agree 100% that there is too much arguing and other childish things going on here, i want it back the way it was too, when it was woodworkers talking about woodworking, sharing helpful hints, tips and techniques and answering other woodworkers questions. There are places for religious and political views but one of those places is not LumberJocks, everyone has different outlooks on those two subjects and everyone is entitled to believe and think what they want but you dont need to verbalize your thoughts on the political and religious front everywhere you go. Thanks for posting this grizz, maybe we will be able to see some change in our future and get back to the good ole days.


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## richgreer (Dec 25, 2009)

Absolutely! I've been here over 2 1/2 years and I yearn for what it was like earlier. These political discussions are destroying what was a great site. There are lots of other places for such discussions.

I'm reluctant to leave, but I will if this continues.


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## SCR0LL3R (May 28, 2010)

Yes but different sites come with an entirely different group of people. I don't want to go discuss every topic under the sun each with a different group of random strangers who happen to feel like talking about that subject at the moment.

I don't participate in political threads anymore. 99% of the time I don't even read the thread if it's political. It's not that hard to do. Just because I don't want to participate, doesn't mean I think others shouldn't be allowed to. It's that simple.

Once political/religious topics are banned, in comes heavy-handed censorship. A harmless conversation steers towards anything that hints politics or religion and in swoop the whiners, who call in the moderators (I'm telling mommy!) , and the thread gets closed or chopped up. Censorship sucks.


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

I too remember the "nicer" days where 99% of the members were all for helping one another and the kind acts were much more abundant. Its not to say that it doesnt happen anymore because it does but most of the time its overshadowed. Its too bad that we have to sift through the rubbish to find the gold.

Remember?

Shop song of the day
The time Patrons truck broke down.
The time MY WIFE dropped the clippers down the toilet

These were the off topic's that kept us loose and let us goof around showing the other side of being a woodworker. Friends were made in abundance, enemies were non existent. Ok this is gettin all John Lennon … anyway thanks Grizz.


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## mpounders (Jun 22, 2010)

I agree. I come to this forum for woodworking, so I really don't look at the off-topic stuff. I'm more interested in projects and contests and tips and jigs. If I want political discussions and other such, I suspect I could find a website dedicated specifically to that. All the off-topic stuff here doesn't bother me, because I don't look at it! Problem solved for me! I certainly would hate for anyone to leave, or to be upset enough to leave. Hopefully all those who enjoy arguing will get their fill or pop a gasket or something. Life's too short, don't waste it!


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## Leldon (Jul 14, 2010)

I usually never come to the off topic. If I don't like something I just don't look at it or go to where it is off topic. Easy enough for me!


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## DeputyDawg (Jul 18, 2007)

WaWho!!!!
Glad to see these answers to the present problems with this site. I have always said that if you want to get onto a site that You will never hear a negative remark, and always have someone to help you with your wood working skills and be able to see the finest wood workers in the WORLD not just around where you live then join the LumberJocks. Nicely put guys and glad to see it posted.


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## stefang (Apr 9, 2009)

There is certainly nothing wrong with wanting folks to have good manners Grizz. So kudos for bringing up the subject.

I don't like the discussions about controversial subjects either. I joined LJ to enjoy the company of other woodworkers, not to argue with them. I'm sure we all break the rules sometimes, mostly in small and inconsequential ways, but I agree that some people can't help themselves from bringing in some negativity, so I just don't participate in those threads.

It seems to me that an overwhelming majority of LJ members are very polite and positive. That in itself says a lot about the typical member without others needing to know his political or religious affiliations. I don't mind if the rules are changed, but I can't say that it is a burning issue with me as long as I can opt out on the negative discussions.


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## DeputyDawg (Jul 18, 2007)

And I would like to add. I could use more Buddies so if you would like to be my buddie please do
Thanks
DeputyDawg


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## jaykaypur (Oct 22, 2011)

Well….........................................................A while back, taking a cue from a politcal prof at the local college, I joined the "you win" category of debate. Whenever I get into a "debate" I just say to myself….'let them win.' LOL It's so much easier to believe strongly in what YOU believe than in wasting a hell of a lot of energy trying to convert the unconvertable. I like visiting and participating on lumberjocks because there are people of like minds here with a similar goal in mind…to learn, share, and show off. I have done all but lessof the last than I'd like. LOL

Folks, life is short. If you wanna spend it getting all worked up over something you absolutely cannot change….knock yourself out. I gave up a long time ago. It aint worth it. I dont visit any of the non-woodworking forums on here because I AM HERE for the wood…
that and that only. I could go on and on but I will just close by saying….if it bothers you…dont go read it. Most of the people that we are talking about are insecure to begin with and I just have no time for BS(not band saw) in my life today. Make a choice and stick with it.

Dont know if any of the above made any sense to y'all but it made sense to me.

PS--Ricky Nelson--*you cant please everyone…so you've got to please yourself." *Well worth listening to--


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## ellen35 (Jan 1, 2009)

I totally agree, Grizz. I too remember when Lumberjocks was about woodworking and woodworking RELATED issues. I find myself coming here less and less… we have lost some really good woodworkers and posters due to the inflammatory rhetoric of some morons…. It is time to go back to our roots.


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## shipwright (Sep 27, 2010)

You have my vote Grizz.
I almost never look in the "off topics". When I do I find that it usually spoils my mental image of some "friend" or other. *The anonymity of the internet allows us all to be friends and buddies in woodworking without having to know all about each others' views on divisive, non woodworking topics.* I like it that way.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

I agree with you buddy about Ljs subjects should focus on woodworking but there's always are a dozen or so folks that love the topics on non shop talk and a few of them love to talk about politics an religion the most. Unless Martin bands those subjects(which I doubt will happen) all we can do is click on the "hide non shop talk" toggle button and enjoy the rest of the forum. I miss the good old days too and a lot of the folks who have left . I'm sure glad you and Ellen and a long list of good folks are still here. In short lets all be kind and respectful of each other not matter what forum we are in.


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## Karson (May 9, 2006)

Clap - Clap.

I went to post on your first one and it was gone.

Glad you decided to bring another back in it's place.

You can have strong ideas about religion and politics, but I don't think that you are going to change anyone's opinion by posting it on lumberjocks.

Go stand on a corner on a soapbox and put out your spiel if you want-but keep it away from LumberJocks. Your not going to change my opinion on who I'm going to vote for or where I spend my Sundays.


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## fussy (Jan 18, 2010)

Me too. I have gotten to the point I don't come here as much as I used too. One can allways not click on off-topic posts, but in doing so one can miss a valuable post that the op didn't know where to post. Politics and religion have NO place here. I think sometimes site owners let stuff like this go because it attracts lots of attention-good or bad- and that spells revenue. Thanks Grizz

Steve


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## dkirtley (Mar 11, 2010)

The real problem is that there are a few that come here where they are "safe." If it were a forum where people were really familiar and interested in the topics, they would get banned. They can come here where it is off topic and can push buttons and get a rise out of the few who don't recognize the recycled talking points that they are repeating from elsewhere. Then the ones that get sucked into the frenzy go overboard in frustration. The rest are just like the people that can't help but look at the highway accident.

I will admit to admiring the one well crafted troll. I just can't see it being worth the effort to keep it up. I guess I am just basically lazy that way.


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## Viking (Aug 26, 2009)

Grizzman;

Could not agree more! I keep asking what would happen if you wento on a "Political" web site, right or left, and started a post about a wood working subject. Think you would be banned??

Thanks for a great post!


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I think the habitual posting a new thread everyday or 2 is out of hand. I don't mind an occasional and I have not been paying much attention until the last few days. Occasionally I will try to insert some historical facts into a mess of passionate ignorance, but it is a pointless pursuit most of the time. It is too bad so many of them stoup to childish behaviour and have no respect for the others.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

An afterthought: The turning point on LJ seems to have been when a previous member who was removed inserted his right to use a female avatar that was especially offensive to many. It progressed to posting porn.

I guess this is a natural progression of mankind. I remember a few turning points in the deterioration of, shall we say "ethics", and the public discourse in America. The point of this thread is we don't want to go there.


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## Dez (Mar 28, 2007)

I agree! 
Although I am also willing to say is "Don't go there!" 
No different than when my father told me that some people or places are "Off" limits!
Just don't go there!
Anyone that keeps going "there" has a fascination with it!
If it bothers you - don't go there!!!!!
Let those that will - go, you do NOT have to visit there OR see it!!
This discussion belongs there as it is NOT woodworking related!
Ignore it!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## bunkie (Oct 13, 2009)

I posted a similar request a few months back and got the usual mix of agreement and "get over it posts". I think the real issue is not the discussion of the subjects per se, but the combination of too-frequent posts that are clearly meant to be rabble-rousing and the inevitable personal attacks. My feeling is that the political process really matters and it's important to have meaningful discussions thereof. While a public space, this board is privately owned and operated and the decisions as to to content rules is solely in the hands of the owners and I respect that, whatever they decide.

I've come to believe that it's impossible to use political orientation to judge a person's character. I think that's the mistake that some posters make. There are members whose political opinions I find laughable who are, nonetheless, very generous with their time and expertise and I am glad that they are here sharing what they know.

In the end, it's up to each of us to rise above the temptation to cross the line into personal and ad hominem attacks. In fact, I think that proper behavior adds to the credibility of the arguments that one makes in such discussions.


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## EPJartisan (Nov 4, 2009)

I agree.. yet, I am guilty… and yet I have to disagree a little.I love this site. I am a better woodworker.. hell a better artist for the inspiration and knowledge shared here. But I have to keep in mind of how I found LumberJocks in the first place. I have tried other resources and knowledge sharing sites, but none have been as rich and easy to use. SO here's my story.. Being a woodworker with an "alternative lifestyle" I am often asked are there many people like me in woodworking. So I searched the internet… yes, please, I am not instigating…I searched for "Gay Woodworkers" nestled among lots of horrible comments, jokes, and porn… was a comment from someone on here that they did not care if a person was christian or gay and that it was all about woodworking. Well, I joined and thought I could just be myself… I was terribly wrong, but even while I was being sent horrible PMs and blasted on the forums.. the sheer beauty of what you people make made it so hard for me to walk away. I stayed, the people who tormented me are gone. So, had there been a ban on controversial subjects I might not have found this site… or maybe I would have eventually.. i don't know.. sigh.

I try so hard not to hit the off topic posts, but I recently found that not all of them are about fighting and some were quite interesting regarding the people here and the business we share… but like I wrote above I am guilty. Occasionally, like the last week, I have been in a slump in the studio and turn to LJ's for inspiration or distraction… BOY was I distracted… I hate getting so angry and frustrated. So does my husband and every assistant I have ever had over the last 3 years. They understand why I belong, but none of them want me to be on here, for the way it hurts my life as well. I want just to be one of the pack of LumberJocks and most of you always make me feel welcome and relaxed. I apologize for giving into the temptation and doing what we are all tired of on here. Thanks Grizzman…


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## woodklutz (Oct 27, 2010)

I agree. Hopefully there are more of us them.
Maybe we should create a "splinter group"(groan)


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## amagineer (Apr 16, 2011)

You can count me in. This is about woodworking, nothing else.


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## toeachhisown (Eddie) (Mar 30, 2011)

i dont really agree Grizz ,its a open forum ,i dont really go there often but from time to time ,i like reading other points of view ,its just politics thats all ,they do moderate them somewhat but is a right to say what you want its freedom of speech,just dont go to them .its just a thread you can stop your self ,most all this site is woodworkers and they come in all shapes and sizes we,ll never all agree on politics or religion ,what you posted is no problem and and as far as fight, i know you enogh to know you would not start one ,but if someone said you could not post your say ,i will stand with you and we will fight them as most all would , have read all there rants and raves they are just hveing there say.we may not agree on this but i still love ya and have the upmost respect for you Grizz


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## jimc (Mar 6, 2008)

I, too, yearn for the day when Lumberjocks was a WOODWORKING site and people went out of their way to be polite to one another. Help was always just a question away - still is to some extent - but we didn't have to weed through the BS to get to woodworking posts. I find myself spending much less time on LJ lately, guess this is why… a different mindset on the part of some/many of the posters. I get enough of the crap listening to commercials and the nightly news - I don't need to subject myself to even more on a "woodworking" site that's on it's way to "gone bad".


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## MrTom (Jun 11, 2012)

I have only been on this site for a short period of time and have enjoyed every moment I have spend checking out projects that LJ members have built and was in awe at most of those. I have about 60 people added as buddies. No I don't know all of them but for what ever reason I wanted to keep in touch with the projects they did or were going to do in the future. 
In my personal life I don't listen to news on TV or watch anything that I feel isn't in line with my way of thinking. I don't read trash on LJ either. I refuse to let anyone control how I feel and for that reason I leave all that junk to someone else to read. 
Don't read it and don't respond to that junk and it will go away on its own. Its like getting into a fuss with someone. The only way that can happen is for two people to keep talking. If one of the two says nothing then a fuss want take place. 
I promise as long as I am a member of this site you will never hear me say any negative thing or make any comments that should hurt anyone's feeling. If i do or have then I am sorry for that and hope you will forgive me. 
Several members have shared with me about projects and helped me when I needed help and I appreciate that and will do the same for anyone that I can help.


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## Eric_S (Aug 26, 2009)

I completely agree with you Grizz


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

May Allah keep and bless you grizzman. He loves you.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Lookie here Third most popular forum. Numbers = revenue = profit = ultimate goal of business


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

Bravo Grizz. Well said.

I'm considering becoming a rare visitor/poster after finishing posting my latest blog string.


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## madts (Dec 30, 2011)

I want to agree, but unfortunately politics saturate your society. It does not matter what you do, politics are involved. Go shopping with your wife for house paint. What color? Politics. Go to work. Boss wants dados, you want splines. Politics.
Also this is an election year, where there are a lot of unhappy people because of a bunch of reasons (the reasons are the cause of all the bad vibes on this site) and at the end of the year I wish that we can all kiss and make up, and it will be business as usual.
That is my hope. Yes I am involved in the political debates. The one reason is I hate to see people slamming others for no reason other than being red or blue. 
Isn't strange that 20 years ago being red was being a commie and now it means being to the right.


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## studie (Oct 14, 2009)

I un buddied Abbot a few days ago just cuz he hasn't said any thing for a long time. He used to be a handful. It's hard not to mix philosophy with art, wood working is not for the weak of mind. Some threads go for so long and folks get way off the subject but hey there are your great stories too. Having the experience of LJS is worth the small stuff and I admire all here.


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## RetiredCoastie (Sep 7, 2009)

I agree as well with Grizzman. I have participated in the off topic forums and I am a firm believer in freedom of speech regardless from the right or the left with respect to politics but the content lately has been rude, disgusting & disrespectful. It's one thing to have a differing opinion than the next person but when it gets malicious and hateful then those people should not be allowed on this site. Talk about politics or religion on the off topic forum? Sure but the minute you resort to name calling, personnel attacks then you should be booted. If you wish to disagree, that is fine but you must maintain respect and a certain amount of decorum. There are many people that have come here that are very fine woodworkers that have left because in there opinion we have a site while having fine projects have an area where it is allowed to treat people in a hateful manner.

I still think there is a place for off topic content but come on lets have some behavior standards attached to this area.


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## Dez (Mar 28, 2007)

I do know what you mean by "looking for peace"! 
After *almost* as many years as most of you have spent, I finally realized that it is all "in where you look"! 
I stopped looking in "trouble spots" when I wanted peacefulness. 
I am buddies with a bunch of folks here because they contribute to MY inner peace.
My buddies are my buddies because I relate in some way - a challenge of some sort (wood, technique, attitude etc.) or sometimes when I am looking for acknowledgement ! 
I come to LJ's because of *you* folks! 
I do not go through the forums or blogs looking for "****", etc because I only have time for positive stuff! 
Ignore the "prissy ********************" because none of us real people have time for it! 
Scroll past it and only post when you need to share and ignore the rest!


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## gfadvm (Jan 13, 2011)

I'll second the motion Grizz and add that it would be nice if everyone could just learn to "play nice"


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## BritBoxmaker (Feb 1, 2010)

Whilst I agree with you in principle, Grizz, where there is freedom some will always express their freedom to be and idiot. I find it best to not look at anything thats not directly woodwork related. I would not like to live under a totalitarian regime where my every post is censored. If people want to play with their own ******************** let them. It says more about them than it does about we who don't.


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## dakremer (Dec 8, 2009)

no one posting political or religious threads are breaking any rules. They are posted in the Off Topic Forum, and the off topic forum allows them. When someone does break a rule while posting or responding then that should be tagged.

I never get involved in political and religious threads. For me….lumberjocks hasnt changed at all. I still come for the woodworking, and thats exactly what i see…..woodworking. When I want to venture off into the off topic forum. I do… When I dont….I dont. Pretty simple. its the EXACT same concept of not clicking on particular projects you're not interested in. No one FORCES you to click on projects you aren't interested in…right? Well, no one is forcing you to click on off topic content…right? I dont understand why people get so upset at this. It literally boggles my mind. And then they create posts like this one, which isnt any better than the political and religious threads themselves….this has nothing to do with woodworking either…

I truly dont see this as a lumberjock problem. I see this as some members want this site to be exactly how they want it to be. I suggest that they go create their own site, and have on that site exactly what they want to see, and nothing else. The people who own lumberjocks have this site exactly how they want it…otherwise they would have changed it by now….i'm just here to enjoy the ride. Which is exactly what I do….

Didnt mean any of this as a personal attack on you Grizzman…please dont take it personal. I'm speaking in general


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

As you all say, if this is just about woodworking and nothing else…what the heck are you all doing in the nonshop talk forum? Stay in the wood forums and everyone will be happy. May Allah give you the strength and discipline to keep you from the forum that so offends you.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

I just don't get it…in my 45 years of woodworking, hobby woodwork, production shops, custom millwork and cabinetry shops, working side-by-side with other craftsmen, hanging out with other woodworkers, ....*AND NOT ONCE DID ANYBODY EVER DISAGREE WITH ONE ANOTHER"S OPINION!!!!* Not once, not even when the subject of religion, abortion, or politics or other topic in the course of conversation. :-\ Then I came to Lumberjocks… and for the first time I heard people disagree with one another's opinion. How could that be, Grizzman? (Note the sarcasm?)


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## grizzman (May 10, 2009)

well it sounds like you worked in some pretty special places, and im glad you had that, everyone here has there right to how they feel, ''there opinion" and i would fight to the death for that to always be so, no one here should ever want to take away that right, but what im asking for is a change in how things happen here, i am not saying that someone cant do what is in the currant rules, they have that right, but i would like to see this site one that is centered on wood working, take the other things to a different site, they cause arguing, they cause back biting, personal attacks, swearing, i would like these subjects that cause those things to be changed, and ive asked for voices of those who feel the same, people dont always agree with what someone else wants, it will always be that way, im not here to argue or be disrespectful to anyone or there say, but i stand in wanting a change, those are my feelings and that is my opinion. im looking for things to be better…those other things are not good, you have light and you have dark, i want to see more light, good feelings, and most of all, i want to see LUMBERJOCKS, a wood working site, where that is what we talk about, not the other…i wont post here again, as im not here to argue or to further defend my opinion.i wish and hope the best for every person here, and each one has there right to feel as they please.


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## S4S (Jan 22, 2011)

deleted


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## Granddaddy1 (May 16, 2012)

Amen brother!


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## mark88 (Jun 8, 2009)

agreed and supported grizz! why do u think im barely on this site anymore….too much b.s (and im not talking bandsaw). i miss everyone but there no point in being here if everyones too focused on everything else but woodwork.


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## GMman (Apr 11, 2008)

I agree with you 200% grizz but some people just cannot put "POLITICS and RELIGION" aside it's a way of life with them.
That will never change and it's a no win subject why they do it I don't know.


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Freedom of thought and speech probably has something to do with their actions, GMman.

May Allah bestow you with patience for those with thoughts that do not match yours.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

This quote is slightly edited for obvious reasons ;-)

Please give us grace to accept with serenity
the things that cannot be changed,
Courage to change the things
we can change,
and the Wisdom to distinguish
the one from the other.

Living one day at a time,
Enjoying one moment at a time,
Accepting hardship as a pathway to peace,
Taking this sinful world as it is,
Not as I would have it,
Trusting that You will make all things right,
If I surrender to Your will,
So that I may be reasonably happy in this life and on this site.


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Allah is happy with your post Topa. May he bless you.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Sure I will not be smitten for editing out His name?


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

God please give us…Allah please give us…
Either way it is a good thought that can be applied to any person.


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## carver (Nov 4, 2010)

I'm with you one hundred percent. Go be "fair to everybody" somewhere else.enough to make a man puke.please go show ignorance somewhere else and leave this sight to woodworkers!


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

That was a mean thing to say about Beener…


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Steve, who are you talking about? Allah bless you Steve.


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## GlenGuarino (Feb 23, 2010)

Agree totally. When my wife showed me the site, I thought it would be a good way to connect with other makers. It is unfortunate political discussions have invaded LJ, there are a number of other sites to have those conversations. Let's get back to talking about what we love.


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## ClayandNancy (Feb 22, 2010)

I,m with you *Griz* If these so called lumberjocks want to debate and ridicule each other find another site. It seems like it's always the same people posting all this political and religious crap and do nothing else but try to stir up people to fight. I don't post to these but I have backed off on coming to this sight, the expertise in woodworking and the common love of a hobby seems to have diminished. I know don't click on it and you won't have to be exposed to it. But it still effects the integrity of this site.


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## GregD (Oct 24, 2009)

Debate and ridicule are not the same thing.
Are you really saying that a civilized discussion is too distasteful to look at,
simply because the topic is religion or politics?


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

For topamax..









ready to go to work?









Looks like it….


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## jeffl (May 3, 2009)

I agree, if we want to talk politics we can go somewhere else.


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

The third paragraph is great and sums it all up nicely. Good one, Chipmunk.


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## grizzman (May 10, 2009)

no squirrel , i happen to know exactly where i posted and i know exactly what im in favor of, so i will thank all of the lumberjocks who posted there comments to show support for the change we seek here, and weather or not some of these changes will come or not, i think its pretty evident that the overwhelming percentage of those who posted here, are in favor of the change we seek, thanks again for your support everyone, lets hope for the best and we thank lumber jocks for being here and having this wonderful site, i don't think there is anything wrong in seeking the change we ask for. lets hope our voices have been heard and go from here.


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Grizzman, this is really too good not to be repeated.

Some of you people remind me of an old grandma who hates the Playboy channel but just can't get it through her head that she doesn't have to watch the Playboy channel. The truth is that she doesn't want anyone to watch that channel because she disapproves.

May Allah help you come to your senses.


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Chipmunk, I use Allahu Akbar for greetings and prayer.


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## grizzman (May 10, 2009)

nope, just got the wrong name, but i thank you for your opinion here anyway, but i think i made it clear what my desire is, and its change, until that happens, everyone here has the right to do whatever it is they want as long as its within those rules, and your right and dkv are right, i dont like the politics here , so no reason to keep at this, i had my right to do so , just as you have with your forums posts, so thanks again, grizzman


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## ellen35 (Jan 1, 2009)

Perhaps if we look at how long the posters to this thread have been here, we may have a clue as to what is going on. Those who agree with Grizzman's basic premise are the old timers… like greater than 2-3 years… who remember what the site was like when we could talk woodworking and also be civil to one another in something called the "Coffee Lounge". Then along came some folks who thought that this was a general site for discussion of all things including politics, religion and bashing of other members. Many of the new members probably ignore the comments made by those who only post here to be flame throwers. To you, welcome to the best woodworking site on the net. Your contributions to our woodworking knowledge base are so very welcome. Rest assured that nothing will change the complexion of this site until those who are genuine woodworkers and are here for the woodworking speak out and the advertisers see what is happening. This is an opportunity to speak out loudly. 
By the way… no one is protesting the religion/political discussion from taking place… just not here. We are woodworkers who come here for the woodworking discussion. I applaud those who have strong religious and political opinions, but please, take them to the political and religious sites where you have half a chance of converting someone to your position. 
Respectfully,
Ellen


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## grizzman (May 10, 2009)

APPLAUD, APPLAUD, very well said my wonderful friend..very well said…....if folks could just understand the passion we have and the love of a wood working site just as you have described…...when i think of the talent and the friendships that have been lost here, because of what we know has happened, it makes me so very sad..the names could be written and written….thank you for this help and support Ellen, big hugs lady!! and also to all who wrote here to support me in this, you are the friends i have made here that started three years ago…thank you!


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## Sawkerf (Dec 31, 2009)

Ellen-
This part of the collective "we" you mention is a "genuine" woodworker who has interests in many things that don't involve sawdust. The non-shop part of the site allows me to have civilized discussions/debates with other woodworkers who also have interests outside the shop.

There are threads on here that don't interest me in the least and I pass over them. I'm totally mystified by those who feel the need to moan and groan about parts of the site thay can easily ignore - if they could just bring themselves to do so.

Grizzman-
Since this debate has been running for some time now, do you suppose that the powers that be may have decided to keep things as they are? Just asking. - lol


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

Grizzman
The Chipmunk and DKV have gone viral for a long time. They both love to start flaming wars, naming members, belittling them and being a imperfect pain in the ass.
They will take over this thread with vitriolic statements. Trust me.
They're the latest "Horizontal Mike" who gets his gun off insulting everyone and hijacking threads.
This thread is exactly pointed at guys like them.
Ellen hit the nail on the head. They're a perfect example.
I was drawn into this crap and since have stayed "out of the fray" 
They'll be gone in due time, as will a few others. 
Back to woodworking for me.


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## grizzman (May 10, 2009)

its because its like this is our passion, wood working, and this is where we come to share that, this is sorta like our home, and to me, i like to keep my home the way i like it, and for the most part, the political and religious talk here is done with disdain, personal attacks, back biting, swearing, Ive seen it all, and this is what we dont want in our HOME…we want to sweep up the bad, and get rid of it…the good we want to keep, making friends we want to keep, but there is a line, and many are passing it….


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## grizzman (May 10, 2009)

thank you jim c, i know what your saying, i just hated to see my thread that was meant to be done in good will , tainted by his posts here, but ive said my say, and i thank everyone who has helped to show the good desires that our good members have…i shall now retire and return to my peace and quite …


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I think the biggest problem is the obsession with toxic comments by some posters and a few things that border on porn if only by implication. A return to civility in all matters would be welcome.


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

The good thing about online forums is that disgruntled members cannot go home, grab a gun and come back and shoot those that have offended them. Thank Allah for that.


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## madts (Dec 30, 2011)

Whoa whoa there Chipmunk. ) I am an atheists and you are dissing me. How can I burn in hell when I do not believe in either a god nor a hell. And what is fire wood. I use it all for my hobby.


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## ellen35 (Jan 1, 2009)

Sawkerf,
I consider myself a bit of a Renaissance woman with many interests that include woodworking. When I want to talk about classical music, I go to the classical music sites; when I want to discuss philosophy of religion, I go to one of the sites that focuses on this topic; when I want to discuss my beloved Red Sox, there is a site for that. Tripping over "off topic threads", sometimes in such great number that they push legitimate woodworking off the page, is not my idea of ignoring that which does not interest me. At one point last week, more than half of the topics were "off topic". I didn't look at them but they do clutter up the site. I still maintain that the site is one that began devoted to woodworking. 
Even if I were to click on one of the "off topic" threads and open it, I really don't see what place insulting other members has on the site. What good does it do? Just look at some of the posts in this thread…!
Ellen


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

A Muslim, a Christian and an Atheist walked into a bar…
Oh wait, I shouldn't be telling those kinds of jokes. Sorry guys…
May Allah give us the patience we all seem to be terribly short of…


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

I'm not taking the bait Chipmunk. 
This thread is exactly pointed at "gentlemen" like you.
The grizzman started this thread, made his point, and you entered and tried a "flame" war.
Ain't gonna happen.

You're pathetic. 
I'm out of here, as I won't fall for your baiting "racist" B.S.

And a "heads up" to grizzman for flushing out the vermin.

See you, amateur "Mikey"


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## _Steve (Feb 11, 2010)

I agree Topamax, The expression of ideas and opinions are best served with civility.


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

"Just look at some of the posts in this thread…!"

Ellen, please list the posts in this thread that you refer to. It would really help.


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Ok, ok, ok I will tell the joke.
A Muslim, a Christian and an Atheist walk into a bar…to talk nonshop


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

Way to go ellen. That message is chrisstef approved!


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## Sawkerf (Dec 31, 2009)

Grizzman-
You have a title to this "home" of yours? You paying for it? Get back to me when you can answer "Yes" to either question.


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## madts (Dec 30, 2011)

I would like to see Joe Lyddon to start doing some wood work. The dudster needs to work on his dragon program so it can punctuate. After that we can all kiss and make up.

You chipmunk need a break. Good job on bringing the fascist on this site to the for-front and revealing themselves.
I have just had my hand operateted on and have not been in the shop for 3 weeks . These posts have been a great for me, as a way to spend time.


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## Sawkerf (Dec 31, 2009)

Ellen-
No body disputes your right to go to topic specific sites to talk about those things. Others of us, however, appreciate more of a "one stop" approach.

I have no doubt that this site began as a purely woodworking site, but it's obviously changed - and quite possibly with the blessing of the management. For all of the wailing and gnashing of teeth that goes on here you would think that the place is on a fast track to the nether regions. Do you notice the membership number on the home page? It seems to increase by ~1000 per week. Somebody must like it.

"Tripping over"? Oh please. A tiny motion of an index finger takes you past anything you don't want to see. - lol


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

Grizz if you don't want to include off topic fights in your day, simply don't go to those threads and let the dirty boys fight.


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## madts (Dec 30, 2011)

Nice job on the Dragon, Dude. I am dyslexic and have wondering about getting Dragon.


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## grizzman (May 10, 2009)

edited


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

Actually, I was typing on my big computer tonight.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

Don't get me wrong. Dragon is a god send If you remember to say period and comma. but when you say period you get this . not this Period.


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Grizzman, you have many, many options. All the way from quitting LJs (which you threatened a day or two ago) to actively participating in the nonshop talk forum (which you do very frequently). I'm all for any of the options open to you. Just don't tread on my options as I am also an LJ member. Unless, of course, there are different classes of LJ members and you're in the class that can dictate to others what they should and shouldn't post.

May Allah bring you to your senses.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

Grizz I DON'T CARE WHAT THEY SAY YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO SAY WHAT YOU THINK JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE. I wore the USMC Uniform to guarantee you will always be free to ask for the site to change, and sometimes I think your right. I know that with the stuff Dan has done and now the Mad Monkey on a rampage, the management is leaning towards closing the off topic.


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Dude, no one has ever said he does not have the right to say what he wants. In fact just the opposite. Don't get so dramatic.


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## grizzman (May 10, 2009)

edit


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## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)

Fun read


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## Sawkerf (Dec 31, 2009)

"....the management is leaning towards closing the off topic."

And you know this how?


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## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)

I'd vote for password protected section where *thru-normal-channels* children and such couldn't poke around. *PG-15*

Something like a lumberjocks for adults channel


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

what is the difference between their threads and this one,?

neither are really about woodworking

at some point we must lead by example ?

all become exhausting so do what you can to make the world a better place, promote what you love, not what you hate : ))


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Grizz, your typing really goes to heck when your blood pressure goes up. BTW, it isn't a good thing to have Dude come to your defense. He has his own problems to deal with.


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## grizzman (May 10, 2009)

done


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## grizzman (May 10, 2009)

im on pain meds and meds to make me sleep, so there is a lot here that i should not have said…so im stopping.


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Come on Grizz, you are what you want to get rid of. You, my man are way, way out there.


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## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)

Fun Read Buds


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## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)

good night grizzman


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## grizzman (May 10, 2009)

i am saying im on drugs for my pain and back, and i dont type rationally things, so there all delted for that reason, im done with this thread, ive said all im going to say, now its up to the owners, if they want to use any of this to see where and how to help the site, im sorry for anything i said tht was out of line…goodnight friends


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

Good night Grizz

Sweet Dreams


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## JimmyCC (Aug 3, 2012)

CHIPMUNK- 
I'm the uncomfortable truth, I'm the guy who isn't polite to racists. I'm the guy who makes you squirm and because you have no argument, you want me banned.

You're also the guy that after the nasty comments from others is gone, you're still there kicking the dirt, pounding your chest looking to fight someone else. Your sentence re-enforces the fact that you are just as toxic as the others, just in a different way.


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