# How to mortise into end grain for loose tenon



## TravisN (Jan 15, 2019)

Hi all,

I'm building a trestle table and about to start on the stretcher that runs between the two bases (trestles?). The stretcher is going to be joined to the bases with tusked tenons. I was initially planning on using my table saw and a tenoning jig to make these tenons until I realized that the tenons exceed the capacity of my saw blade. They would probably need to be about 5" long to get through the table legs and have enough exposed for the tusks. I'm under the impression that integral tenons would be stronger than loose tenons, but I can't think of a good way to do that. I don't think I'm good enough with a hand saw to precision saw that long of a tenon. I thought about using a flat-bottomed router bit to clear away material from both sides of the stretcher, but in my experience I don't get a completely flat/smooth surface because of different levels of pressure applied over the many required passes, and at least some of this tenon will be exposed.

So that leaves me with the idea of using a floating tenon. My conundrum is how to do that into the end grain of the stretcher. I'm obviously concerned about splitting the wood. I would think chiseling into the long grain would be the biggest risk. What about going perpendicular (e.g., cutting the fibers) first? Is drilling or plunge-routing safer? Naturally, I would need to figure out how to support the stretcher such that I could drill or route into it…. Is this a fool's folly?

I am using kiln-dried ash, either 6/4 or 8/4, and looking to make the tenon (and mortise) as thick as possible so I have enough thickness in the tenon for the tusk.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

Do you have a bandsaw? You can easily cut the long tenons using the bandsaw. You can cut them a little large and sneak up on the size and square everything up using a shoulder or block plane. Another option is to use a dado blade on your table saw and just make multiple pases with the stretcher laying flat.

If you don't want to go either of those routes, why not just change from a tusked tenon to a regular mortise and tenon? If you were planning to cut the mortise anyway, you can simply make the tenon shorter and have it fully inclosed in the leg.


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

I've routed mortises into end grain quite a few times and not had problems, but it is a little trickier than routing into face grain. That said, routing into something the length of a stretcher would be just as troublesome as you suspect. I think either suggestions by lazyman would be best, first choice to that band saw. The dado blade would leave you a surface on the cheeks that would need to be cleaned up (a shoulder plane would be really handy, but a chisel would do). Lastly, if you go ahead with loose tenons, I don't think you will suffer from lack of strength; at least if the fit is good.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

I usually use a ryoba saw on tenons that long. My tenon saw needs sharpening and can only cut about 4" anyways.


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## TravisN (Jan 15, 2019)

> Do you have a bandsaw? You can easily cut the long tenons using the bandsaw. You can cut them a little large and sneak up on the size and square everything up using a shoulder or block plane. Another option is to use a dado blade on your table saw and just make multiple pases with the stretcher laying flat.
> 
> If you don t want to go either of those routes, why not just change from a tusked tenon to a regular mortise and tenon? If you were planning to cut the mortise anyway, you can simply make the tenon shorter and have it fully inclosed in the leg.
> 
> - Lazyman


Ah, the bandsaw would be a great choice. Sadly I don't have one  I can ask around, I might have a friend that has one.

Sadly, I also don't have a dado stack and my table saw won't accept one (I have a jobsite saw). I could just do that many more passes with my regular blade. Would take a while, but probably be safer (because of my familiarity) than trying to turn the stretcher on end and route into the narrow end grain.

My reason for using the tusked tenons is they are more consistent with traditional trestle tables, and I want to be able to break it down for relocation. I could just go with hardware, but that would hurt my pride.


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## TravisN (Jan 15, 2019)

> I ve routed mortises into end grain quite a few times and not had problems, but it is a little trickier than routing into face grain. That said, routing into something the length of a stretcher would be just as troublesome as you suspect
> ....
> Lastly, if you go ahead with loose tenons, I don t think you will suffer from lack of strength; at least if the fit is good.
> 
> - Fred Hargis


I would like to learn this, but I can imagine myself destroying the project piece trying to route into end grain, especially on a piece that large. Good to know strength shouldn't suffer. I read somewhere that the joint can be weak because of thin walls around the tenon, but I thought with a tight fit and strong glue bond, it would act is if it was one piece.


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## TravisN (Jan 15, 2019)

> I usually use a ryoba saw on tenons that long. My tenon saw needs sharpening and can only cut about 4" anyways.
> 
> - SMP


First time I've heard of a ryoba saw  I'd seen the Japenese pull saws but never knew the correct term. If I thought I could cut a straight line, I would do this in a heartbeat.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

You are thinking about this all wrong. This is the perfect excuse to get a new table saw and dado or a bandsaw. Work with me here. ;-)

If you have a router table, you could use a straight bit in a similar way to the dado on the table saw. You need a coping sled along a fence or miter gauge to ensure a square shoulder.

One other option with your original plan on the table saw would be to cut as deep as you can with the table saw and finish with a hand saw. Once you have a nice flat cheek started, it will be easier to keep it straight with the hand saw. Set up layout lines and go slow. A mirror sitting on the bench on the opposite side can help you keep it straight. You can clean and square up with chisels or hand planes. If nothing else, it will be good practice.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

> I would like to learn this, but I can imagine myself destroying the project piece trying to route into end grain, especially on a piece that large. Good to know strength shouldn t suffer. I read somewhere that the joint can be weak because of thin walls around the tenon, but I thought with a tight fit and strong glue bond, it would act is if it was one piece.
> 
> - Travis


If you decide to go with a loose tenon, you might look into making a router mortising jig. That can make the process of plunge routing into end grain much easier and it will help with cutting mortises in side grain too. Make sure that you use an upcut spiral bit for that.


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## TravisN (Jan 15, 2019)

> You are thinking about this all wrong. This is the perfect excuse to get a new table saw and dado or a bandsaw. Work with me here. ;-)
> 
> If you have a router table, you could use a straight bit in a similar way to the dado on the table saw. You need a coping sled along a fence or miter gauge to ensure a square shoulder.
> 
> ...


LOL, I would love that!

I like the idea of starting on my table saw and finishing with the hand saw. I would only have to go an additional 1-2".


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

What you're taking about is a through tenon with a wedge right?

It can be done with a handsaw. Clean up and fit with rabbet block plane , chisels, rasps, etc.


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## bilyo (May 20, 2015)

I use the multiple passes on the table saw method frequently. Particularly if I'm doing only one or two. Once you make the shoulder cut, you don't have to make sure all of the passes are over lapping to remove all the material. It is OK to leave thin "fins" that can be cleaned up later with a chisel. As said above, fine tune it with plane, rasp, sand paper, etc.

Band saw also works well. I like to make the shoulder cuts on the table saw first. I have a better chance of making a square cut.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> I usually use a ryoba saw on tenons that long. My tenon saw needs sharpening and can only cut about 4" anyways.
> 
> - SMP
> 
> ...


Its almost impossible to NOT cut a straight line with a Ryoba saw. The blade is like 4 or 5" wide. This does however make it more important to correct the cut early on. However, If you properly make a knife wall on all lines it would take skill to cut it wrong because this wide blade is going to follow the knife wall and self track straight. Imagine of your bandsaw had a 5" blade.

Here's the one I have. I find I use it a lot more than I thought I would. 
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B001Y4ZUJW/ref=psdcmw_553220_t2_B002EI2AT0


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## AndyJ1s (Jan 26, 2019)

I'd go with a router, preferably in a router table, but an extended router base would probably do.

I would use the table saw to cut the shoulders square and at the right place, and maybe nibble a little wider gap so you don't have to get close to the shoulders with the router.

Then use the router (with an extended baseplate) to finish the rest.

I assume you want tusk tenons to be able to disassemble the table for packing/moving?


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## bondogaposis (Dec 18, 2011)

A dado on the table saw is the easiest way to make tenons.


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## TravisN (Jan 15, 2019)

> Its almost impossible to NOT cut a straight line with a Ryoba saw. The blade is like 4 or 5" wide. This does however make it more important to correct the cut early on. However, If you properly make a knife wall on all lines it would take skill to cut it wrong because this wide blade is going to follow the knife wall and self track straight. Imagine of your bandsaw had a 5" blade.
> 
> Here's the one I have. I find I use it a lot more than I thought I would.
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B001Y4ZUJW/ref=psdcmw_553220_t2_B002EI2AT0
> ...


Thanks for the link, I'll pick one up!


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## TravisN (Jan 15, 2019)

> I assume you want tusk tenons to be able to disassemble the table for packing/moving?
> 
> - AndyJ1s


Exactly! If I thought I was staying put, I would use blind or wedged tenons.


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## TravisN (Jan 15, 2019)

> I use the multiple passes on the table saw method frequently. Particularly if I m doing only one or two. Once you make the shoulder cut, you don t have to make sure all of the passes are over lapping to remove all the material. It is OK to leave thin "fins" that can be cleaned up later with a chisel. As said above, fine tune it with plane, rasp, sand paper, etc.
> 
> - bilyo


I think you guys have convinced me to go with the integral tenons, either starting the tenons on the table saw with a jig and finishing with a hand saw, or just using multiple passes on the table saw.

Thanks for all the input!


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

what about this
https://woodandshop.com/how-to-make-a-tusk-tenon-joint-with-hand-tools-will-myers-part-1/
https://woodandshop.com/how-to-make-a-tusk-tenon-joint-with-hand-tools-will-myers-part-2/
https://woodandshop.com/how-to-make-a-tusk-tenon-joint-with-hand-tools-will-myers-part-3/
https://woodandshop.com/how-to-make-a-tusk-tenon-joint-with-hand-tools-will-myers-part-4/
https://woodandshop.com/how-to-make-a-tusk-tenon-joint-with-hand-tools-will-myers-part-5/

the sawing starts at about 7'15" on the first video


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

another interesting video


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## TravisN (Jan 15, 2019)

> what about this
> https://woodandshop.com/how-to-make-a-tusk-tenon-joint-with-hand-tools-will-myers-part-1/
> https://woodandshop.com/how-to-make-a-tusk-tenon-joint-with-hand-tools-will-myers-part-2/
> https://woodandshop.com/how-to-make-a-tusk-tenon-joint-with-hand-tools-will-myers-part-3/
> ...


Thanks, I'll give these a watch today!


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## GrantA (Jul 19, 2014)

I get it because I've done it before. You're grossly over complicating this.
I finally said screw it I want to learn! Get some 2×4s and practice with a handsaw. Remember it's wood not precision machine parts. Have fun with it.


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## TravisN (Jan 15, 2019)

> I get it because I ve done it before. You re grossly over complicating this.
> I finally said screw it I want to learn! Get some 2×4s and practice with a handsaw. Remember it s wood not precision machine parts. Have fun with it.
> 
> - GrantA


I do tend to over complicate


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Hi Travis
Once you're set up loose tenon joinery can be quick and efficient and in my opinion stronger than standard tenons.
Since it involves a router that will be a necessary tool to have on hand or perhaps borrow,in the long run if you intend to keep woodworking a router is a great investment. These videos show some very simple jigs to make , making end grain mortices very easy. 
If you want to learn more about joinery I suggest you buy or borrow from the library this book,it's the best book on joinery in my opinion, it shows you 3 different ways to make each joint.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B003TXSR5K/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1


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## TravisN (Jan 15, 2019)

> Hi Travis
> Once you re set up loose tenon joinery can be quick and efficient and in my opinion stronger than standard tenons.
> Since it involves a router that will be a necessary tool to have on hand or perhaps borrow,in the long run if you intend to keep woodworking a router is a great investment. These videos show some very simple jigs to make , making end grain mortices very easy.
> If you want to learn more about joinery I suggest you buy or borrow from the library this book,it s the best book on joinery in my opinion, it shows you 3 different ways to make each joint.
> ...


Thanks Jim,

I do have a router but have not used it in end grain before. I will check out the sources you provided.


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