# What am I Worth?



## MomTheBuilder (Jul 7, 2016)

Hi! This is my first post here. I thought you guys would be a good place to seek advice and opinions. Forgive me if this is not the correct forum or in some way prohibited, if so please delete/move as needed!

I am relatively new to woodworking, strictly speaking. I've always been a DIY'er, made many a crude structure with limited teaching, tools or resources. The past couple of years I've greatly improved my skill and even have my very own ever growing personal shop! I've not entered into selling yet but, I recently took a job in a small but growing high end custom cabinetry and mill work shop. The starting pay was $10 hr with a 90 day probation period to end with an evaluation and compensation determined based on performance.

In the six months I've been there I have successfully completed every task put before me with results nearly equal my co-workers with several years at the company. I excelled in drawers. My trainer confident enough to allow me to run an OMEC 750 by myself while he went to chop out more material, MY FIRST DAY! By the end of my first week I was basically the new drawer person using the dovetailer, rip saw, ras, 22in planer, whirlwind with tiger stop, table saw, changing blades for dados and such, Martin slider, routers, shapers, 1×8 belt sander and 42in wide belt drum sander with little to no supervision. Shortly thereafter, I was "promoted" to face frames where I still reside. I have trained others for drawers and face frames. I can build dovetailed drawers and mortis and tenon frames from 4/4 all the way to finishings door. I can do some case assembly. I can size, sand and edge profile doors. I can make solid stock, set up a router table or rough mill an entire kitchen of lumber in a day! I get along with everyone, I rarely miss work, I get my work done with a good attitude, I take care of the tools and machines (even trusted to square, calibrate and repair things!) I clean up my messes and others! I organize and deep clean. I know where things go and where things are. I'm honest and readily admit when I've made a mistake. I notice costly errors and correct them before they progress. Basically, I do a good job!

I finally, last week, had my 90 day review (going on six months here). We've been busy shorthanded etc etc. Fine, it happens, it's cool. The only negative thing they had to say, which I new was coming, was that I need to get there earlier. I've been late by their standards about once a week. Now, I've been legitimately late on a couple occasions. But if I walk in the door and the buzzer goes off before I make it to the time clock, I'm late. I'm talking like 80% of my tardiness is literally one minute late! We do not work on a "line," my work is always caught up and then some. I'm always there a few minutes after the last bell, shutting off lights, fans, machines etc. I stay late and work overtime when needed/asked. All in all, I think I make up for this one area of weakness that in no way affects my otherwise above average performance.

Today was payday. Still a whopping $10 an hour! I inquired when I would be getting a raise. I was told when I start coming in on time. I made my points, competition starts at $12.40 with $1.90 per year possible based on several factors each contributing a partial percentage of the total. I told them that I do not agree with this all or nothing approach to raises and put in my two weeks. He'll see what he can do, gotta talk it over with the big boss. Am I expecting too much, or are they? Did I mention the carpal tunnel surgery two weeks after I started, and I still came to work and did my job!

If you made it this far, thank you for taking the time to read it! Sorry it got so long. I really just don't know what to say! I think I'm worth more than that! What do you think?


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## bbasiaga (Dec 8, 2012)

Hard to give a raise to someone who's late, even by just a few minutes. From your boss's perspective there could be another person there who does a good job as well and may not qualify for a raise. How does he explain that you got one even though you have been late? Or what about another person who a had been denied a raise for tardiness, but now you get one?

It's a tough situation on both sides. You probably could get a little more depending on your local economy, but he has fair practice to consider as well. Good luck at your next place. Sounds like you are a fast study. You can make a splash there.

Brian


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## bondogaposis (Dec 18, 2011)

Your fate is in your hands, get there early.


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## Mahdeew (Jul 24, 2013)

If my best worker shows up late on a regular basis, he/she will go through 1-2-3 out the door disciplinary action. Think about it this way:
The boxing champion of the world keeps showing up 15 minutes late and says, "what's the big deal? I knock'em down anyways".


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## DJFB (Jul 8, 2016)

Hi all! My first time here. Started out looking to sell my powermatc 66, and stumbled across this post. It sounds like you are a hard worker and developing some great skills. And it may seem trivial that you show up a minute or two late at least once a week. Now ask yourself what would happen if all the others showed up late frequently. I worked for a company that makes and repairs computers and other electronics, worked up to being the boss of the repair shop. Had several people over time that would show up late like you described. It wreaked havoc on the schedules and morale. Maybe you should take each of your coworkers aside and ask them if they mind that you show up late when they don't. Trust me, they are harbor in resentment to some degree. If you are just a minute or two late, why can't you just set your clock for 5 minutes earlier and show up on time.


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

Show up early and have a great day


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## bigblockyeti (Sep 9, 2013)

You didn't mention where you're at, that can make a huge difference as to what the market will bear. If you're in Los Angeles you're making 1/3 of what you're worth, if you're somewhere in the midwest that still sounds kind of low given what you're capable of. If your boss conducts your 90 day review over 100% later than promised and gives you a hard time about being a minute late despite getting all your work done then you're working for the wrong person. Someone who puts too much emphasis on something trivial like a time clock while ignoring your skill and ability to complete work in a timely fashion is not a good leader and not someone I would ever consider working for. While I can't speak to exactly what you're worth without knowing where you're at, you are most definitely being under paid and probably were from the beginning.

Another thing I noticed after re-reading your initial post is that whom ever you had your review with had to go "talk it over with the big boss", you're not working for some giant corporation. If the "big boss" can't make time for you on your 90 day review (on time) that's further evidence you're working for someone with poor business management skills.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

I saw two issues - -
you say you do your job "ALMOST" as well as your coworkers.
And you show up late routinely.

as others mentioned - someone who is routinely late, is poison in the workplace.

on the other side - - your 90 day review should have happened at 3 months not 6.

You mention prevailing wages - but is the other company hiring, or is everyone struggling in the business?

Always know what your skills are worth, and be willing to move, but evaluate if you are happier at 10 bucks with friends, or 12 bucks and work under the thumb of some micromanaging A-hole.
You said it is a small but growing shop. The start-up often is paying less than the big business


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## Aidan1211 (Feb 20, 2016)

So the tardiness is actually kinda a big deal even if you catch up. Woodshops design schedules around best hours of productivity and work flow so they can stay profitable. As far as your hourly rate woodworking is a field where the guys that run the shops now were most likely the apprenticeship generation so they effectively worked for virtually free for a couple of years just to be able to say they were qualified enough to do the work on their own regardless of talent shown. So they look at it like they are doing you a favor by taking a risk on teaching you each task. Keep in mind it also takes time away from shop operations to teach you anything or even stop to answer a question here and there so they are actually in fact paying you more than your weekly check. This field is very knowledge intense and very competitive so I'd be super careful with threatening to quit they'll likely just let you go pick someone up that needs zero direction and shows up when ever they want. Remember based on the current economy there are more looking for work than there is work so they can 
a) pay less 
b) be pickier 
c) replace you faster

Pay your dues work hard show up on time and the money WILL come they won't have a choice at that point but to protect you as a valuable asset. Until then just work hard and never try to paint them into a corner they will ALWAYS win.

Best of luck.


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## gargey (Apr 11, 2016)

As other said, the answer to your main question depends on what the market will bear. Are workers similar to you scarce? Do you have other options (leverage)?

If you are easily replaced, they will replace you. If you leave and can get more somewhere esle that's fine. If you can't, you're up a creek.

Sounds like you were able to do most of what you do in a short period of time, pretty replaceable unless workers are scarce where you are.

If I understand correctly, you gave your 2 week notice? Bad move. Limits your options and theirs. Also makes it look like you're not likely to be around long, which you can't undo ever.

Better move would be to say you believe you're worth XX, and are willing to make changes to be sure to come in on time. Let me prove it by coming in on time every day for a month, at which point you will agree to automically increase my pay to XX.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Welcome to Ljs
As an employer of some 45 years, I always look to an employee's attitude along with their skills and willingness to learn. Being late may be an indicator that you don't really want to be there to some employers. All the employees I've had that stand out in my memory were always early. The fact that you accomplish you duties well is what your employer expects of you,so even though you feel you've done a good job you are standing out to your employer for the wrong reason,being late. Turn over a new leaf and consider yourself late if you're not at work 15 minutes early. If your working for a company with lots of employees they are use to turnover( people coming and going) show them with your words and actions you want to be there long term and you love your job. As others have said some parts of the county production cabinet shops have low wages where being on the job for 10 years you may only make $15 hr.


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## MomTheBuilder (Jul 7, 2016)

But, it's not a few minutes. It's less than one. I'm in the building when the buzzer goes off. Everyone else is still sitting at the break table. Doing nothing till the bell. I start actually working at the same time everyone else does. It affects no one. Come quitting time, everyone else is headed to the time clock the very millisecond the buzzer goes off. I'm always putting things away turning things off helping the boss finish something up that we need ready the next morning. I clock out when he does usually. In the case of the boxer, people are waiting for him and 15 min is a lot. If I was that late every week, I could totally see a problem!

I don't understand how people do it! Does nothing ever take longer than you expected? Is being early really the most important be all end all attribute. I feel the quality and quantity of work produced is heads and tails above in importance. If I arrived on time but was not able to preform the tasks without error, would that make me a better employee? If I cost the company hundreds, even thousands in remakes but I was never late would I then be more desirable? I really don't get it! I know it's not ideal and I really do try, oh how I try! I hate messing anything up, I feel like a failure when I am late. Sometimes the pieces just don't come together like I planned! Does it make my other skills and accomplishments less valuable?

And what about them being three months late on my evaluation? What message does that send about the importance of timeliness at the company? When we can't compete our work because the materials/tools haven't been ordered or we're expected to get by with half broken machines. Why am I expected to preform at 100% 100% of the time when no other person or machine in the place is held to such a standard. Where is my wiggle room?

I mean I know I'm awesome (LOL) but give me a break! I'm not super woman!

Also, this is training wages vs. full time employee wages. If they are willing to keep me, they need to pay me employee wages. I was done "training" a few weeks in!

Thank you all for your replies and thoughts. I do see where you/they are coming from. I just don't fully agree with the importance. If we had a seven minute Grace period like most places, this would be a non issue. Not to mention, the other days, I'm early! Sometimes before the boss!

Anyway thank you again!


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## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

You know what they expect which is to show up on time and you do not do that.

If I were your boss I would use step discipline….warning, one day off, three days off and then termination .

You have a job and can learn skills at it and all you have to do is be there on time. What would happen if you showed up early?

The only problem you face is the person in the mirror.

Personally, I really disliked people who show up late. When you run a business and are the boss you can make rules. Not follow the rules and arguing about them is going to result in you going out the door.


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## JBrow (Nov 18, 2015)

MomTheBuilder,

I do not wish to sound harsh and this is not my intent at all. However, you asked for the views of others. My honest viewpoint probably sounds harsh and uncaring, especially since it seems to disagree with your firmly held personal belief. Rest assured I simple want to be honest without being mean.

It seems to me that when you took the job you entered into an agreement with the company; your time for their money. I'll guess they have been reliable and on time with your pay checks and thus are holding up their end of the bargain. However, arriving late, even one minute, suggests you are not holding up your part of the agreement. Arriving late and staying late is equivalent to arriving early and leaving early; neither would be acceptable to me as an employer and infringes on the company's ability to organize work and takes away the value of your time which you agreed to provide. Then the fact that you have been late enough times to quantify it with "80% of my tardiness" suggests showing up on time is a big problem for you and evidently for the company. While the answer may be simple (arrive on time all the time), there may be reasons why arriving on time is a problem. Nonetheless it is your problem to solve, not the company's problem to accommodate.

For what it is worth, the big boss may reject your boss's efforts to secure your raise for two reasons; your frequent tardiness and the fact you quit, but will stick around for more money. The big boss must consider whether your performance is so outstanding that you simply cannot be replaced versus whether this is just the beginning of issues brought by an employee who cannot simply get to work on time and therefore should be let go.

In any event, why stick around with the existing company. Taking a job with the competitor you mentioned would boost your pay. Perhaps the competitor is ok with tardy employees, especially if it is negotiated at the outset of your employment .


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## bigblockyeti (Sep 9, 2013)

You have clearly identified you are working for someone incapable of running a business competently, find an employer who can.


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## ChrisK (Dec 18, 2009)

Put on your bosses shoes a minute. If he allows you to be late, he has to allow every to be late. I have seen where this causes problems for everybody. Much better if you show 2 minutes early, not too much ask in my opinion, than 1 minute late. Running a shop means that everyone has to play on the same field at the same time, or one late task means more late tasks and then a late ship date.

Or find a position in a company with a culture that fits your thoughts about to run a shop better.


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## MomTheBuilder (Jul 7, 2016)

All of the cabinet shops in this area are hiring. Including this one. From what I gather, I'm the best that has come along in a while. I would not be easily replaced! I do love my job, I like the guys I work with. I like working 4 10's. I try very hard to be there on time. I also live farther out than others and on dirt roads. My work day takes up about 14 hours of my day. I have four children 3-15 yo. I also work a side job on my days off. I am willing to work with them but, they have to work with me also! No one is waiting for me to get there. There is one person in each area and like I said, my work is caught up. I could miss a whole day and it would not affect workflow in the slightest.

By almost as well, I mean they have several years (some 20+) of experience. I have six months!

On the review form they use you're basically rated on a scale of 1-5 I scored 4 (they don't give many 5's) on everything but attendance. That is the one and only thing they have to complain about!


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## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

Sounds like all that's really required of you is that you walk through the door 60 seconds earlier. An unwillingness/inability to do something that simple and basic would (at least to me) be indicative of a less than desirable attitude in an employee. An attendance policy is not uncommon and is laid down and enforced by many employers. At my company, you wouldn't have made it to the 90 day review if you had been tardy even once. That probation period is when most people are attempting to make their best impression. What does it say about your future attendance if you're coming in late repeatedly (even if it is only 1 minute - they write the check, they make the rules) when you're presumably putting your best foot forward?

And as far as:


> If I arrived on time but was not able to preform the tasks without error, would that make me a better employee?


It shouldn't be an either/or proposition. I don't know where you're located, but I imagine there are others who could do the job well AND be on time. Unless you're irreplaceable, your employer has a right to expect both.

No offense meant, just wanting you to see the other side! Welcome to LJs!


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## gargey (Apr 11, 2016)

> At my company, you wouldn t have made it to the 90 day review if you had been tardy even once.


What kind of place do you work? That sounds pretty harsh.


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## GR8HUNTER (Jun 13, 2016)

I use to love to show up 20 min. before start time … that way you could grab a coffee ….and get your mind into what you will be doing today ….. but that being said if your not happy …then quit …....LOL


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## Mahdeew (Jul 24, 2013)

These folks were late for work as well. The new workers require no breaks, work for free, get no medical or any other benefits and do whatever the boss asked them to do.

One nice thing about coming to work early is that you get to know your co-workers and they get to know you and that takes some time. Social networking is one of the most important part of succeeding in any work or business. At this point many of your co-workers including your boss may think that you are a snob and perhaps think you are above them and don't wish to engage with them. Your boss maybe thinking you are staying late after other workers are gone to "kiss up to him". There has to be certain amount of cohesiveness among employees or tensions go up and accidents happen. If you have certain amount of shyness or don't enjoy small talk before work, just get there early and listen to others talk.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

" Is being early really the most important be all end all attribute."In short Yes!!
I can see by all that you need to do, that in fact, you are a "Super Woman",two jobs ,plus taking care of kids and long commute plus doing a great job once you get on the job,it's not fair that things work the way they do but unfortunately many employers are not concerned with being fair,their focus is bottom line and conforming to their rules and policies.
If you have all that time at the end of the day with your boss explain your situation and need for more money,if they agree to more money they more that lightly will still want a commitment from you to be on time,employers really expect that,so as hard as it is for you,you need to find a way to be on time or consider other employment,perhaps with you experience you can start somewhere else for more money closer to home.
I wish you well .


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## Puzzleman (May 4, 2010)

You have showed up late to work whether 1 minute or 10 minutes.
You are expected to be there before the start time and be ready to work at the start time, not taking off your jacket, putting away your lunch, etc.

You have stated that other shops are hiring. So you have learned a lesson from this job.
Go apply to the other places that you say are hiring and then get there before the start time.

By the way, are you located in western Canada?


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## Aidan1211 (Feb 20, 2016)

20+ years of experience entitles them to some leeway and from your comments they don't take advantage of it why should you with 6 months. As far as having young children I think if we took a vote 95% of this forum would raise their hand indicating that they have children as well including myself. By the by they don't have to flex for you at all. You are not entitled to special treatment. Period. Their job is waaaaaay more complicated than yours no one gives them special treatment when they are out fighting for the work you receive a paycheck from. It is very easy for you to judge the management of the business model and the ins and outs you never see. The attitude you seem to carry will not go very far in this business you cannot bully your way to the top. It's not that kind of business. The people who run your shop are no doubt very tough skinned people (professional woodworking will make you that way) but with that same thought they are less likely to put up with any kind of monkey wrench thrown into the mix as well they simply cannot afford it. I can promise you one thing through my 15+ years of experience both under others and as the boss if you continue to carry your thoughts the way you have demonstrated to us that you do you will end up going from shop to shop you'll never build a good reputation and will eventually end up black balled altogether from the field. Don't forget woodworking is a VERY tight knit community where reputation is absolutely everything. Just for informational purposes being able to run a machine and process material based on what is preset makes you no more of a talented craftsperson than the machine itself. Being able to assess what needs to be done to accomplish a complete build from start to finish is another story. And as fast and valuable as you say you are there is absolutely NO WAY you completely understand everything woodworking has to offer or you would never have started working for a new company you would have opened up your own shop. Listen no one here means you harm we are not attacking you in any way shape or form but technically you are new to the game a lot of us have busted our butts at for a very long time are acting like you are a victim of the system that is in place at the shop you work at and to be honest 99% of the shops out there operate on the same system. Woodworking has no place for imperfection when a joint is loose it isn't right regardless of how close. You are almost a perfect employee by your words but you're a loose joint by being late. If I were the company I'd pitch the imperfect joint call it a loss and cut a new one so my piece ends up perfect. Coming here for sympathy and reassurance that your feelings are right (which you know that was your intention to get others to say poor thing) was probably not a good idea. I love what I do regardless of anything you are after a paycheck which is. Ice but LJs are here for the love of the process, the material and to share the vast knowledge we have all gathered because even if we would legally qualify as masters of our craft we will never ever know it all. Furniture and wooden products have been being made since the time of Adam and Eve.

If you change your approach open your mind and bust your butt you might be the next Sam Maloof I'm hoping for that but it's up to you. Commit to the process or move on. You end up needing less migraine medication and so will the people you work with.


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## MomTheBuilder (Jul 7, 2016)

I just need to win the lottery and build my own shop! Heck I'd even buy into this company just so I could have a say! (Well I'd buy all the stuff that's broken/missing/on the wishlist and give the guys raises too!)

No offence taken! I'm glad we're able to discuss. I really am passionate about the work and will continue my journey regardless of the location of the saw! I just feel in this particular situation, considering all the facts and who I am as a person. If this particular attribute tops the importance list here, this is not the company for me. I'm not demanding they pay me an outrageous salary achieved only by those seasoned life long veterans who have earned it. I'm just saying, if it wasn't for that one thing, how much would you give me? Now give me a percentage of that. Like the other guy down the road gives his employees. That company has 20 times the employees of this one, they know how to keep good help! (I just don't want to work on a production line, doesn't fit my personality!)


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## gargey (Apr 11, 2016)

In today's America, what you really should have done is sued for gender discrimination. Women and Men are supposed to make the same amount regardless of anything else.


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## Puzzleman (May 4, 2010)

Is this Mel???


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## Racer2007 (Jan 13, 2011)

> All of the cabinet shops in this area are hiring. Including this one. From what I gather, I m the best that has come along in a while. I would not be easily replaced! I do love my job, I like the guys I work with. I like working 4 10 s. I try very hard to be there on time. I also live farther out than others and on dirt roads. My work day takes up about 14 hours of my day. I have four children 3-15 yo. I also work a side job on my days off. I am willing to work with them but, they have to work with me also! No one is waiting for me to get there. There is one person in each area and like I said, my work is caught up. I could miss a whole day and it would not affect workflow in the slightest.
> 
> By almost as well, I mean they have several years (some 20+) of experience. I have six months!
> 
> ...


My daughter has 3 kids aged 5 to 14 and also takes care of her mother who is medically restricted to bed , She drives 40 miles each way to work and has received awards each year for over 10 years for lack of absence or tardiness . She manages to make it to Soccer games, Music concerts and Plays that the kids perform in and takes care of all the Medical visits required for her mother.
And for them having to Work with also , No they don't have to they are Paying you to Work for them with their set of rules and that is the bottom line. 
As for you don't want to work on a production line, doesn't fit my personality , on a production line job you HAVE to be there on time or the whole line gets messed up.
Sure you can win the Lottery and buy the company and change the rules if you want to , But don't bet all your life's plans on winning the Lottery.

I say learn to schedule your time better and be on time to work because your company has already shown you that is a Very High Priority on their list of job requirements. Either that or Quit and see how it goes at another company when you routinely show up late if even only a min. at a time.


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## dad2jj82 (Dec 23, 2013)

sounds like you are learning the trade well. Just leave 10 minutes earlier and you should be good.Being on time is very important .Ive worked in factories for 16 years and a second late results in points just like if you blew a tire out or sprained ankle or there was a traffic accident on way in. Its a no fault where i am at. You can do it keep your head up and get there on time and your boss will want to give you a raise. Good reliable help is in high demand.


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## MomTheBuilder (Jul 7, 2016)

I have to wholeheartedly disagree with the whole idea that woodworking need be 100% perfect. That standard is inhuman and unachievable! We don't force the wood to do what we want. We go with the grain. We learn techniques to better our results based on the given characteristics of the material and it's intended purpose. It may be precision but it is not perfection! Close, almost, near, appearing perfect and done with great skill? Absolutely! I'm a great employee. I have a superb attitude. I get along with everyone. I get my work done right. I make few mistakes and can fix most of them. If this one single attribute is alone more important than all the others combined. I'm good I'll figure something else out! Thanks for the opportunity, I won't leave you shorthanded but, it's not for me! Sorry.

If one cabinet arrives at the job site 1/32 of an inch deeper than than the one next to it, you don't throw the cabinet out. You put a flippen shim behind it and finish the job! And in the end everything looks just beautiful and appears perfect to the proud new owner! All is right with the world!

Also, just because I'm not authorized/qualified to do something at work YET, doesn't mean I don't know how to do it at home! And furthermore I have the utmost respect for those come before. They make my life easier. They teach me things that could have taken years to discover on my own! That does not diminish my own accomplishments achieved in my limited time to have done do!


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## skatefriday (May 5, 2014)

Never, ever, ever, underestimate the value of being on time.

On time is 5 minutes early. Late is on time.

If you practiced this, you'd always be walking in 4 minutes before the buzzer.


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## KnickKnack (Aug 20, 2008)

Well - I rarely chip in on discussions, but I'm on the other side of this to everyone else it seems, so I'll throw in my (now somewhat devalued) penny…
I used to run a small company - software, not woodworking.
I paid my people an honest day's pay (actually a little more) for an honest day's work.
Staff dealing with customers - well - "reasonably" on time was simply enough.
"Backroom staff" (most of them) - to be honest, within reason, I didn't really mind when they did their work.
If someone turned up late, or needed to leave early - no problem - I knew I'd get the time back - in fact, mostly, I knew I was already in credit.
Once in a while I'd need people to stay late, or work a weekend, or make a midnight phone call, or fly to America - which everyone did without complaint - we each scratched each others' backs - and it worked well that way - very well.
But that was just how I, personally, wanted my company to work - we weren't big, and we didn't have a buzzer - we all had a good time and made some money to boot.
All that said I can see, and understand, how this particular company wants to run differently, with a different ethos - if you want to take the owner's money, you have to play by the owner's rules.
I'd suggest you find another job - one that values the quality of your work, and your dedication, rather than one that's overly focused on the clock.


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## mojapitt (Dec 31, 2011)

Welcome to Lumberjocks. As you can see, lots of opinions here. But we are here to help.


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## bigblockyeti (Sep 9, 2013)

> if you want to take the owner s money, you have to play by the owner s rules.
> I d suggest you find another job - one that values the quality of your work, and your dedication, rather than one that s overly focused on the clock.
> 
> - KnickKnack


Bingo!!


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## MomTheBuilder (Jul 7, 2016)

Not Mel, sorry! Nowhere near Canada either. I'm in the Midwest. I am very passionate about the work I do. Both in my own shop and on the job. I'm obviously not perfect nor do I claim to be. I'm human just as you all are. We have our strengths and our weaknesses. Just like the wood we work!

Richard sorry to hear about your daughters mother. My husband (38)had an emergency triple bypass last year, six months after we bought our first house. Told the doctors for over eight years there was something wrong with his heart. They did every test you can imagine over the years. Told him he was fine, he had anxiety. He wasn't sick it was all in his head. It wasn't. Don't come at me like I don't deserve a raise because your daughters been through more. You don't know me or what I've been through in my 31 years. Everyone has challenges to overcome. Good for your daughter! She obviously values this attribute. I believe other things to be more important. Doesn't make her any better than me, I'm sure she too has her days!

To others, thank you for your responses. I appreciate the input. I stand my ground though. If it doesn't go my way, I knew that was a possibility when I put in my notice. But I'm not going to continue with no recognition for what I do achieve and punishment for what I don't.


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## MomTheBuilder (Jul 7, 2016)

I agree, this is my decision point. I've made it. Now it's their turn. See the thing is, this is a high end shop. Quality is the A number one thing we strive for. You would not believe the amount of wasted material! Anything under 20 inches or .79 thick is trash they can't be bothered to save. A teansie chip in a piece is grounds for remake. No matter how small or how far along the piece is. You would literally feel like a kid on Christmas morning diving into our dumpster!


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## MomTheBuilder (Jul 7, 2016)

I gotta get some stuff done. I'll check back later tonight. Thanks again!


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## Racer2007 (Jan 13, 2011)

> Not Mel, sorry! Nowhere near Canada either. I m in the Midwest. I am very passionate about the work I do. Both in my own shop and on the job. I m obviously not perfect nor do I claim to be. I m human just as you all are. We have our strengths and our weaknesses. Just like the wood we work!
> 
> Richard sorry to hear about your daughters mother. My husband (38)had an emergency triple bypass last year, six months after we bought our first house. Told the doctors for over eight years there was something wrong with his heart. They did every test you can imagine over the years. Told him he was fine, he had anxiety. He wasn t sick it was all in his head. It wasn t. Don t come at me like I don t deserve a raise because your daughters been through more. You don t know me or what I ve been through in my 31 years. Everyone has challenges to overcome. Good for your daughter! She obviously values this attribute. I believe other things to be more important. Doesn t make her any better than me, I m sure she too has her days!
> 
> ...


I never said my daughter was better than you or had a tougher time than you , just that she has managed to work out a way to make everything fall into place for how her life works. From everything you have said about yourself you should have no problem in also being able to make it work if you put your mind to making it work. 
Good Luck with your life and your Woodworking career.


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## Aidan1211 (Feb 20, 2016)

I've always enjoyed watching those that go to the group with an opinion already firmly planted in their mind and ask for others opinions and then act as if they were being attacked by the group when the general consensus heads away from their own thought processes. As far as saying it's impossible to work wood to perfection….... most of the successful furniture makers I know own just as many precision measuring tools as a machinist myself included. And to save embarrassment for yourself I'd shy away from telling others that precision is within 1/32 of an inch. That's a mile and a half in furniture. A 64th is considered sloppy work in most circles. It's obvious that your asking the question of what you're worth was to get sympathy and when you didn't get the sympathy from the majority here you felt like you needed to defend your position as to why you are right negates to the point in asking the question to start with. When you ask a question assume you'll get an opinion. Bottom line you got a job with a larger shop that pays more and if you have the same problem there you'll hopefully understand that even though you think it's them it might not be any farther than the reflection in the mirror. Everyone here is just saying be on time and your problems will go away and you feel the need to justify being late. I don't know what you have been taught but everyone I've ever met that had a tardiness issue jumped from job to job. Funny thing is though they always blamed the company….... huh funny eh must be a conspiracy against women as the above poster indicated…..... wait they were male….. or just possibly…..... no couldn't be….... if you are late….... then maybe you broke a company rule….... nah. Schedules are for those that are conformists. Well it was a great chat I can we have all helped you move on to greater things with your open mind so I think I'm going to go back to doing the impossible and making my joints fit as they should….... wait that's not possible I should charge more. Can you tell my customers I need a raise because I do the impossible?! That would be a great help.


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## Jon_H (Jun 21, 2016)

The owner/boss dictates the rules. Within the limits of the law, that's his/her prerogative. Welcome to the American workforce! If your boss decides that being on time at the beginning of your shift is part of the criteria for earning a raise but hanging out doing extra little tasks at the end of your shift is not criteria for earning a raise, he has every right to do so.



> I have a superb attitude. I get along with everyone. I get my work done right. I make few mistakes and can fix most of them.


I've been in the workforce for over 34 years. Every place I've worked, what you described is the baseline. That's the minimum expected of employees. That's not the standard that earns you raises. It's the standard that keeps you on the job. If you want to be rewarded with raises, you need to exceed that standard. The fact that you're chronically late, even by 1 minute, means you're not exceeding that baseline standard. It means you have not yet earned a raise.



> If one cabinet arrives at the job site 1/32 of an inch deeper than than the one next to it, you don t throw the cabinet out. You put a flippen shim behind it and finish the job! And in the end everything looks just beautiful and appears perfect to the proud new owner! All is right with the world!


Your boss has told you that you're 1/32 of an inch deeper than you should be. Instead of throwing you out, which he has every right to do, he has asked you to correct that flaw. Instead of putting a flippen shim behind it, you're here on LJ grousing about how unfair your boss is. As numerous others have stated, show up early, EVERY. SINGLE. DAY. Put a flippen shim behind it! And you'll look just beautiful and appear perfect to your proud new boss. All will be right with the world!

The employee can chose to comply with the rules set by the boss, or take their talents elsewhere. That's his/her prerogative.

However, the fact that you walked in the door with zero commercial woodworking and were fully trained in 3 weeks means that you're easily replaceable. You may think you're wonderful. Your employer thinks you're expendable. I doubt they'll shed any tears if you walk out the door.

If your next employer is worth his/her salt, they'll ask you to explain why you left your previous employer. At that point, you'll have to tell the truth and confess that you're habitually tardy and have issues complying with company policy, but expect raises anyway.

You admit that you're not quite as competent as your co-workers. You admit that your co-workers are there early every day and you're frequently late. Yet in spite of being sub-par as compared to your co-workers, you expect a raise? I'm not sure I see the logic there. Raises aren't handed out for 98% performance. They're earned by 100%+ performance.

It's not a question of which criteria is more important than the other. It's not about punctuality being more important than superbly dovetailed drawers and well-swept floors. It's about meeting 100% of the criteria set forth for earning the raise. You've met 98% of the criteria, but still think you should receive the raise. Sorry, there are no participation trophies in business.

Your boss has clearly articulated what the criteria are for earning a raise. Quit grousing about the criteria, quit making up your own criteria, put your head down, do what he's asked you to do, and EARN that raise! Take your work ethic to the next level, meet and exceed the standard set by your bosses. If they still refuse to give you the raise, then you have every right to tell them to shove it!


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## Plain (Jun 27, 2016)

$10 for a rather qualified and dangerous job ? My advice: run! Even if you get a raise to say $15 is still way less than it worth. Let your boss handle those face frames himself.
And by the way, make a habit coming to work 15 minutes earlier. Then if you are late 15 minutes you are just in time.


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## BillWhite (Jul 23, 2007)

I guess that "Lombardy Time" is an unknown in your vernacular. Get to work or go home. Whose choice is it? Yours or the employer?
If I were your employer, you would not be on my payroll after all this tripe.
It is good that you don't post your REAL name.
Now I feel better. This has gone on far too long, and is accomplishing nothing in your mind.
Aiden 1211 has been well spoken.
If you want to talk about beginner status, I can go on for hours about time and learning when I was a kid.
Dare ya!!!!
Bill


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## isotope (Dec 14, 2013)

Whether being late by 1 minute is a truly important, or not, is irrelevant. Your employer thinks it's a big deal. Trying to convince him/them otherwise, is pointless. It's up to you.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

+1 to "Jon Hobbs" and his post. Can't say it better, won't try.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

It's your job to be on time each and ever day barring unforeseen circumstances the are behind your control. I arrive at work on average 45 minuter before my shift begins. This takes care for most unforeseen circumstances.

I see a lot of people who coming running in the door a minute or 2 before their ******************** begins in a big huff trying to beat the clock. Never could understand living that way. I like to take my time be relaxed and have a cup of coffee and talk to guy be I start work.

I have O sympathy for people who are late on a weakly bases.


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## Aidan1211 (Feb 20, 2016)

WOW! That was worth a million bucks. Clear concise and no way to make it clearer. Well said! 
After that very little should keep this conversation going.



> The owner/boss dictates the rules. Within the limits of the law, that s his/her prerogative. Welcome to the American workforce! If your boss decides that being on time at the beginning of your shift is part of the criteria for earning a raise but hanging out doing extra little tasks at the end of your shift is not criteria for earning a raise, he has every right to do so.
> 
> I have a superb attitude. I get along with everyone. I get my work done right. I make few mistakes and can fix most of them.
> 
> ...


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## Jon_H (Jun 21, 2016)

> I'm talking like 80% of my tardiness is literally one minute late!


How late are you the other 20% of your tardiness?


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## chiseler (Dec 20, 2015)

Wow!! I can't believe what I'm reading here,I thought this site was about woodworking not entitlement.It sounds to me that for someone with so little experience you think very highly of yourself .I've been a career woodworker coming up on 40 yrs.,and I've spent all this time trying to perfect my craft,and I still fall short every now and again by my standards.I don't understand how you can argue with which probably over100 yrs. of experience between all of us and think your right.the fact is the only one that thinks your special is you,and I haven't met a person yet that couldn't be replaced.it looks like you're on the road of having good work ethics,but showing up on time is part of it.Many of the days up coming problems have been solved over a cup coffee before the day started.I don't mean to sound harsh,but welcome to the world of career wood working.Whether you like it or not ,the boss is always right.If you don't believe me try working for another company and see how far your way of thinking gets you.With that way of thinking you wouldn't last a week in my world.Just show up,pay attention,learn as much as you can,and enjoy the ride.
Again,I'm sorry if any feelings were hurt
Good Luck


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## MomTheBuilder (Jul 7, 2016)

Okay Jon, I'll bite. I'm going to preface this next comment with the statement that I am by far my own worst critic. I have a tendency to devalue myself and underestimate my accomplishments. I have been told since I was a small child that I was not and would never be good enough. No matter how much I achieved. I have tried really hard here to not to sound like I'm over stating anything positive about myself or understating anything negative. I do not understand why we are so quick to forget everything good a person has done in the face of one bad.

I think one thing you are all missing here is that my employer is far from perfect as well! I didn't realize my lack of derogatory remarks would be interpreted as my employer being a saint that does everything they say going to do right when they say they will with 100% consistency. That is not the case! I choose not to blast their misdeeds, only my own. If that makes me the devil then so be it!

One time I was pulled over because my tail lights had gone out (on that drive to work, literally just happened) I was 15 min late. I requested to leave an hour early to make it to the shop in time to get it fixed that day. My request was denied. I told them I would be late the next day as I could not drive before sunrise as I had no tail lights and had already received a written warning from the officer. I was an hour late that day. One day I was not aware it had rained overnight. As I said, I live down dirt roads. It took a little longer to get to work. I was like ten minutes late. The only other time was a couple weeks ago when I didn't notice the kitten sleeping on my truck tire when I backed out of the driveway. I did however see it's poor flailing body leaking blood as it flopped from side to side dying in front of my daughter after I ran it over! It upset me, I couldn't drive in that state I was about 15 min late.


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## DanielP (Mar 21, 2013)

If you have enough talent it should not be a problem to get a job without the time clock. Enough being the key word. Everybody and their brother wants to be a woodworker. Physicists quit NASA to make boxes for a living.

It sounds like you have been listening to the wrong people. Posting here was a wise decision. Now, perhaps, you can measure yourself more realistically.


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## Aidan1211 (Feb 20, 2016)

Guys I think we've tried enough. SHE DONT GET IT! We would be better off trying to talk a panel into making its own dados. Or possibly convincing a tree to turn its self into lumber. She's not going to make it in woodworking she'll be just another person that thinks it's a quick easy way to get rich and we will end up getting her harbor freight tools to scrap on the weekends to make sure they aren't seen again. She's cutting into shaving making time. Let her lose. Lost cause.


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## MomTheBuilder (Jul 7, 2016)

Wow, do you feel better about yourself now? That was totally uncalled for and just plain mean!


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## MomTheBuilder (Jul 7, 2016)

You definitely displayed the value of your contribution to the discussion with that one. What a sleezy thing to do!


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## bigblockyeti (Sep 9, 2013)

> After that very little should keep this conversation going.
> 
> - Aidan1211


Unless your goal is lobbing insults rather than offering helpful advise!


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## Aidan1211 (Feb 20, 2016)

The truth always hurts. You've effectively wasted a ton of people's time today. People that would have jumped at an opportunity to help you cultivate skills you don't have. The guys here are actually super awesome people that I friends and would do quite a bit for. You on the other hand have all the answers therefor have no need to be here. We are a community of people that HELP each other work through difficult projects and work through the abyss of options out there. Our time is better served helping those that want help not those who just want to complain about something they caused then get mad when everyone pitches in to show them the problem so they know what to fix. I'm known for spending hours on the phone to help a newbie work through a problem no judgement but the biggest difference between you and them is they want to better themselves you want a pitty party. Sorry we are fresh out balloons.


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## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

You posted and were asking….got no sympathy from most so do not get so upset. Try another forum and maybe they will agree with you or show up to work on time every day. Sorry for the truth…


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## Aidan1211 (Feb 20, 2016)

You really should read the rest of this thread we've been trying to help her ALL day. From the posts I've seen and the screen names I've seen today of the people I personally know there is almost 150 years of experience trying to help her pinpoint the problem the she seems to think is someone else's. Go ahead and read from the top and try to talk sense with her and see where it gets you. 


> After that very little should keep this conversation going.
> 
> - Aidan1211
> 
> ...


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

I expect that since you gave 2 weeks notice… instead of asking for a raise, they are finding your replacement and not talking about a raise. You need to start applying other places, because the clock is ticking.

Do you know what the seasoned folks are getting at your company? (since the 12.40 is the competition) Did everyone else get raises this year and you didn't - (because you mentioned all the broken equipment going unrepaired)?
Every company has a culture, and a payscale - to me the 'demands' of the boss would be more internally focused on what everyone else also gets… not what a larger competitor is paying. If other companies are paying more, investigate, and decide what you want for yourself. They may have a totally different way of working+more automation - - expect their linepeople to run the Onsrud CNC.

e.g. maybe the "Just starting out" is at a higher level/expertise than Just starting at your current company.

.
Figure out if it is really apples to apples as you calibrate what you are worth. The person that agrees to hire you… as an individual out of a group of applicants will decide what you are worth per hour in the shop.

Just know that YOUR worth is not decided by the hourly rate in the shop.


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## bigblockyeti (Sep 9, 2013)

> You really should read the rest of this thread we ve been trying to help her ALL day. From the posts I ve seen and the screen names I ve seen today of the people I personally know there is almost 150 years of experience trying to help her pinpoint the problem the she seems to think is someone else s. Go ahead and read from the top and try to talk sense with her and see where it gets you.
> 
> - Aidan1211


I read it all and most were trying to help despite disagreeing, your post where you blatantly insulted her was unprofessional and completely out of line, in no way shape or form would anyone ever confuse that as help.


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## BillWhite (Jul 23, 2007)

I'm takin' the rest of the week off. No screen time, no bitchin' about pay, blah, blah.
You folks take care of the poor baby. Maybe she'll find a new job payin' big bucks. That is unless her next employer sees her ranting on LJs.
See ya Monday.
Bill


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## MikeUT (Sep 5, 2014)

Wow, you are getting brutalized here. I want to add my two cents, I'll try to do so without being harsh.

When you are employed you are expected to make sure that your job is the number 1 priority during the time you are on the clock. When you are late your actions are saying that whatever you are doing before work is more important to you than your job. It could be getting your kids ready, eating, or anything else, but if you wake up 20 minutes earlier you can consistently get to work on time. As an employer, I understand that sometimes people can be late. If someone is 15 minutes late because they get pulled over for tail lights I can forgive that. I would rather that they be 15 minutes late than trying to outrun the cops and end up going to jail. Consistent tardiness shows that you aren't setting up your day in a way that allows you to make your job your top priority.

One more thing- when you put in your two weeks after they said you wouldn't be getting a raise, you may have confirmed in their minds the decision not to give you a raise. That is pretty reactionary. You obviously bring value to the company because they haven't fired you. But if you try to dictate terms with the threat of quitting you are overestimating your value. They sign the checks, you don't.

If I were you, I would apologize for overreacting and tell your manager that you want to sit down with him and go over exactly what you need to do to qualify for a raise. If you really love your job you should be willing to get a little less sleep to keep it and thrive there. A willingness to be coachable and sacrifice is the difference between being a valued employee and being replaceable.


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## Aidan1211 (Feb 20, 2016)

Ok guys enough brain damage for today. I've got chairs to build. Ya'll have fun trying to make sense of this mess. Mom I wish you all the best. Please block me so I don't get to see the nonsense pop up on my screen.

To the rest of you guys I look forward to chatting later and seeing the cool stuff you are working on and as always if you need something please don't hesitate to ask.


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## chiseler (Dec 20, 2015)

I don't know??I sounds kinda like we're beating a dead horse here


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## chiseler (Dec 20, 2015)

great advice !!!


> Wow, you are getting brutalized here. I want to add my two cents, I ll try to do so without being harsh.
> 
> When you are employed you are expected to make sure that your job is the number 1 priority during the time you are on the clock. When you are late your actions are saying that whatever you are doing before work is more important to you than your job. It could be getting your kids ready, eating, or anything else, but if you wake up 20 minutes earlier you can consistently get to work on time. As an employer, I understand that sometimes people can be late. If someone is 15 minutes late because they get pulled over for tail lights I can forgive that. I would rather that they be 15 minutes late than trying to outrun the cops and end up going to jail. Consistent tardiness shows that you aren t setting up your day in a way that allows you to make your job your top priority.
> 
> ...


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## MomTheBuilder (Jul 7, 2016)

Uh I'm pretty sure I did admit my shortcomings. My argument is not that the clock is irrelevant. My argument is that it shouldn't be the determining factor when it has no impact on the quality of work. Considered, yes. Factored into the total, you bet. And if you paid attention Yeti has been here all day. Before you I believe! I did ask for a raise first. When I was told I would not be getting one for an unspecified amount of time and only if I was never late, I put in my two weeks notice. If they're searching for my replacement, good for them! That's what they're supposed to do when someone puts in their two weeks notice. That's kinda the whole point of giving two weeks notice! I can't guarantee I won't ever be late. I don't agree with such a policy and do not wish to continue under such strict policies. I'm fine with that, no hard feelings. I'll train my replacement. They have that right and so do I! I never said I felt entitled to anything. I asked for something, if it's not given, big deal. I knew what I was getting into. Obviously this wasn't the right place for me. You bet I'll find it though, and I'll be happy.

Also panels don't have dado's, stile and rail have dado's. And judging by your signature,

its better to plan on the task at hand than actually doing it…..... You look smarter.

You're a whole lot of talk with no action! What value could your opinion have? You sit there blaming me for wasting your time. No one asked you to be here, quite the opposite I'd like you to leave. You're rude and your arrogance is distasteful. I never asked if I should sick it up stay there and do what they demand. I asked what I was worth. I didn't ask for pity nor sympathy. I didn't expect any either. I now know that there is hope for less rigid people to work with and I fully believe I did the right thing.

Now get back to appearing smart by not actually getting anything accomplished! Way to go!

Some people!


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## Racer2007 (Jan 13, 2011)

*Also panels don't have dado's, stile and rail have dado's. *

But where do we put the Panels ?


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## Hammerthumb (Dec 28, 2012)

This seems to be the new work ethic in todays workforce.

I won't comment on you talent or experience as neither of these are important to the question you posted.

I will comment that the issue is respect for the employer. I have employed many people over the years, and have terminated people for the very issue of habitual tardiness. I also have had employees come in late with a good excuse. These employees were consistently on time otherwise, and no action was taken. The employee who habitually was late for work even after being reprimanded was terminated. It is lack of respect for the employers rules that resulted in their termination. If you disrespect their rules, why should they not disrespect your pay?

I agree with a prior post that said you should apologize, and retract your notice. Also ask for a review after another 90 days to see if you can get that raise. Don't be late.

By the way, welcome to LJs.


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## MomTheBuilder (Jul 7, 2016)

After I waited 180 days for my first 90 day review. You're out of your tree! I'll be waiting for another six months!


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## jeffswildwood (Dec 26, 2012)

This reminds me of my Army days and what I have lived by forever.

Early is on time

On time is late

Late is unforgivable


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

> After I waited 180 days for my first 90 day review. You re out of your tree! I ll be waiting for another six months!
> - MomTheBuilder


Better to have a job and possibility for a raise than to be out on the street looking and waiting for a job. IMO, you are in the wrong, despite your continued claims otherwise… and getting up 20 minutes earlier is an easy fix.

Cheers,
Brad


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## MikeUT (Sep 5, 2014)

> Uh I m pretty sure I did admit my shortcomings. My argument is not that the clock is irrelevant. My argument is that it shouldn t be the determining factor when it has no impact on the quality of work. Considered, yes. Factored into the total, you bet.
> 
> I asked what I was worth. I didn t ask for pity nor sympathy. I didn t expect any either. I now know that there is hope for less rigid people to work with and I fully believe I did the right thing.
> 
> - MomTheBuilder


This thread got a little heated so you may not be open to input anymore but some of us are trying to give you unbiased input. You are entitled to your opinion about the importance of being on time. In my experience, being on time is extremely important to 95% or more of employers. They may be willing to tolerate tardiness at $10 an hour but I doubt any place will be willing to pay you more than their company minimum for someone that is unwilling to consistently be on time or early. You don't have enough credibility at 6 months for an employer to bend one of their basic principles. Maybe after several years you could talk them in to being lenient but with that attitude you won't ever make much money.


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## gargey (Apr 11, 2016)

MomTheBuilder: Don't take it too hard. There are some cro magnon grumpy old men here.


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## Ger21 (Oct 29, 2009)

You might want to consider looking for work in a shop that does commercial work. It might be more plastic laminate than woodworking, but it will likely pay considerably more.
But if you are continually tardy, you won't last long.


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## chiseler (Dec 20, 2015)

in Aidans defense,maybe you should look at his last post in Projects before you make false accusations.
Also a word of advice,take from the criticism what you can use and screw the rest


> Uh I m pretty sure I did admit my shortcomings. My argument is not that the clock is irrelevant. My argument is that it shouldn t be the determining factor when it has no impact on the quality of work. Considered, yes. Factored into the total, you bet. And if you paid attention Yeti has been here all day. Before you I believe! I did ask for a raise first. When I was told I would not be getting one for an unspecified amount of time and only if I was never late, I put in my two weeks notice. If they re searching for my replacement, good for them! That s what they re supposed to do when someone puts in their two weeks notice. That s kinda the whole point of giving two weeks notice! I can t guarantee I won t ever be late. I don t agree with such a policy and do not wish to continue under such strict policies. I m fine with that, no hard feelings. I ll train my replacement. They have that right and so do I! I never said I felt entitled to anything. I asked for something, if it s not given, big deal. I knew what I was getting into. Obviously this wasn t the right place for me. You bet I ll find it though, and I ll be happy.
> 
> Also panels don t have dado s, stile and rail have dado s. And judging by your signature,
> 
> ...


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## Racer2007 (Jan 13, 2011)

> After I waited 180 days for my first 90 day review. You re out of your tree! I ll be waiting for another six months!
> 
> - MomTheBuilder


This is from your first post.

I finally, last week, had my 90 day review (going on six months here). We've been busy shorthanded etc etc.* Fine, it happens, it's cool. *

How soon we forget what we have just said.

Good Luck in your future work.
I am out of this one folks. Later


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## mudflap4869 (May 28, 2014)

The artillary barrage started 1 minute late and as a result 7 soldiers died. 1970 viet nam. Zero tolerance for people who refuse to be punctual. If I make an appointment I *WILL* be there well before the stated time. That is what ETHICS is all about. If you don't have ethics I don't have need to associate with you. Stay in the gutter where you belong. Simple facts and end of story.


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## diverlloyd (Apr 25, 2013)

Is your company to swamped with work to take time for a 30 minute review? It sounds like you are not getting pay for equal work if the on time guys are doing 40 hours and you are staying over and getting more then 40 hours. Then you are doing more for less which isn't right . Equal pay for equal work period, I live in the Midwest and White Castle starts out at 10.25 a hour and it's not dangerous. I'm sorry but you are late and that's bad but you are not 90 days late for your job. It sound like to me they don't want to back pay you for the time you made in the extra 90 days, so no raise now so they don't have to pay the difference. And are you getting paid for the extra time after the bell rings or do they have a 5 minute or more Lee way on that if so then you havent been late. But if they are paying for the time after the bell then you have been late. I've never worked for a company that didn't have at least a 5 minute leeway.

I had a company tell me I had to be trained to weld their way and it would take six months without pay. I would be building their parts for free. This is with being certified for every welding process they had and a degree in ocean engineering( underwater welding and oil rig pipe line placement). I told them what they could do with that job and thanks for wasting my time(about 30hrs of tests and interviews). So I understand where you are coming from I don't see how a review could be 90 days late that is ridiculous. I have ran my own company and very high dollar jobs and would never let that happen. If you are doing the same work you should earn the same wage period.


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## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

30 years wood working, 23? as the shop foreman of a high end, multi million dollar stair and railing company.
Usually about 15-20 people in the shop at any given time.(Mostly 10-20 year people)
I wouldn't have had this issue with you really….at all, because with all that I've read above from you….you would have been terminated well before your 90 day review.

Jon Hobbs…best post in this thread.


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## KayBee (Jul 6, 2009)

Just an observation about time clocks based on my experience(in a high end commercial shop). If you punch in on time, it usually shows up as a minute late. Be early.

How much you're worth is how much someone pays you. "In the trades" you're still considered a beginner until you've paid your dues of time. Talent really doesn't have a lot to do with it. Prove you want it enough to stick around. But if it's a bad fit, try someplace else.


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## JAAune (Jan 22, 2012)

I hired a part time temp for a few months to help with a large project and he was an old hand from a local cabinet shop. Start time was 8:00am and he was in the parking lot by 7:40am almost every day just waiting until it was time to clock in.

That's a rare employee. Unfortunately my business hasn't grown quite enough to add a full-timer. He's since moved on to work full-time for a bigger shop up north.


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## BulldogLouisiana (Apr 12, 2015)

Haha. A lot of harsh critics and poor reading comprehension going on in this thread. I agree with a lot of your thought process. I think good management finds a way to meet the needs of the employees and factors in intangibles. That's not to say that policy isn't important. If they've said being 1 minute late is more important than all the other positives, that's their right. I do find the 90 day tardy 90 day review wonderfully hypocritical.

I will state for the record that I am never late, and it is one of my biggest pet peeves when my employees are late. However, certain traits in an employee are worth far more than others. What are you worth? Supply and demand


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## Rentvent (Jan 28, 2016)

This thread has exceeded it's sell-by-date.


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## Gixxerjoe04 (Jan 31, 2014)

I remember when i was around 17-18 years old i had a job at my friends family business, had a stint of not showing up on time and a couple no shows. They were going to fire me which i deserved, but gave me one last chance, since then I've probably only been late to jobs I've had maybe 5 times… in the last 12 years… Heck, my current job i get there 15-30 minutes early just about everyday and I don't have to clock in nor does it matter if I show up on time, but I still do. Of course your current job doesn't sound great for $10 an hour, show up on time so they like you so when something better comes along they will only have good things to say about you if you use them as a reference.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

I agree that being tardy on the 90 day review is hypocritical. And as others have said, late is late. It doesn't matter if it's 1 minute or 30 minutes (well it does from a work standpoint but not from a legal standpoint, at least in my state). So I ran into this problem once where I had an employee that was sometimes seconds or a minute late, then another employee started being hours late. They one coming in hours late happened to be a member of a protected class (some of you will know what that means. I fired the guy who was showing up hours late (or sometimes not at all) and found out the hard way that legally I have to treat 1 minute late the same as hours late or not coming to work at all. And honestly, I understand and agree with it, it should be that way.


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## daddywoofdawg (Feb 1, 2014)

I agree it shouldn't be a big deal, if you are a min late and get all your work done.BUT in this country 99% of a job is showing up on time!You can get farther,paid more,and advance faster showing up on time,and doing half-ass work.Than you can doing great work, and showing up 1 min late once a week. just the North american way.


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## Woodbum (Jan 3, 2010)

As a manager of employees for over 35 years, I can give you one piece of advice: "anyone who can be constantly 5 minutes late for work can be constantly 5 minutes early for work". As an employer, 75% of getting the work done was to get my workforce at work, on time , every day. It's your future in your hands, deal with it.


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## Woodbum (Jan 3, 2010)

Also, when asking for the opinion of others, don't get defensive and whiney when you don't get the answers that you want. If you don't want the opinions of others, don't ask


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## mtenterprises (Jan 10, 2011)

It seems I just had to get in on this one. A one day post with 86 comments I just have to toss in my two cents worth. This may seem choppy but it's more of a comment on each statement. This person sounds so much like many of the young people today. Time to enter the REAL world.

You sound like some 18 year old kid that thinks he/she has the world by the tail and it owes you everything. Of course 13 posts in one day I also might think of you as some kind of troll. If "everyone is hiring" take a walk down the street and try getting another job and see how far that gets you. "I've got 6 months experience", what do you expect $15/hr? I've got like 45 + years of experience and I'd be happy to get $15 now. Get a job at McD's maybe they'll pay you $15/hr. Your 10 hour job takes up 14 hours of your day which means you live 2 hours out from your job with 4 hours driving time per day I think it's time to find something closer to home. Your $10/hr is being eaten up by your driving time. Sounds like you might live out in the country maybe you should go work as a farm hand for minimum wage you might just bring home more money not having to drive as far. It'd be like getting a raise. You need to start looking at things realistically and change your attitude also. Being on time is the utmost important thing at ALL jobs, ALL JOBS! Do your other employers seem ok when you show up late? If life keeps handing you the ********************ty end of the stick, make fertilizer out of it. Let's have a pity party and I'll play the world's smallest violin for it
Enough time wasted reading and commenting got things to do . Have a good weekend all!
MIKE

(Personally guys I think this is some kind of troll but even so the advice given here is only positive advice good for anyone out there looking for a job in any kind of business)


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## GerryB (May 1, 2011)

Get up early, be at work early and walk out the door on time,knowing you've given the man what he pays you for. ( remembering I had to stay on board the ship two nights when I was a young, single sailor, just because I was at the bottom of the gangway when the whistle blew. I was less than 10 seconds late!)


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## JoeinGa (Nov 26, 2012)




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## distrbd (Sep 14, 2011)

> - JoeinGa


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## gargey (Apr 11, 2016)

> Stay in the gutter where you belong.
> - mudflap4869


Holy ********************! The employment issue aside, I sure do prefer her character over yours.


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## freedhardwoods (May 11, 2008)

> The owner/boss dictates the rules. Within the limits of the law, that s his/her prerogative. Welcome to the American workforce! If your boss decides that being on time at the beginning of your shift is part of the criteria for earning a raise but hanging out doing extra little tasks at the end of your shift is not criteria for earning a raise, he has every right to do so.
> 
> I have a superb attitude. I get along with everyone. I get my work done right. I make few mistakes and can fix most of them.
> 
> ...


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