# New Shop?



## moke (Oct 19, 2010)

I have been working out of my garage my entire life. ( just hobby woodworking/turning) It is a 3.5 stall garage…I have a lot of tools….it is full. Everything is on wheels, and it works fine. But you have to clean up after every session, and put stuff away, to put the cars away…well actually trucks…we have two expeditions that take a lot of room!

30 some years ago when we bought our house the State was putting a 4 lane highway behind us. The people in the neighborhood sued the state before construction and got a 35' berm and made them sink the highway down 20 some feet. Its awesome, in that it created a lot between the back of our lot and the berm that is 300 feet deep and we can not hear or see the highway….only the berm and fence on top. We bought that property as neighborhood and everyone just took care of what was behind your house. But you could only build shed and they had to be on skids. Fast forward 30 years and we finally platted the ground and took individual possession of the ground. I was happy but had no plans to do anything more or less with it…..there is an easement 15' wide for utilities between it and the original lot.

Last weekend my wife of 31 years ( who is awesome) says…..you are going to retire in a couple years and I have 10 more years to go…..lets build you a shop back there…..I want that third stall to buy a two door jeep with a removable top. We paid off our house, lets do something fun for once. Now keep in mind we had had a cookout for just us two and we had had several Margaritas…..so I brought it back up a few days later and much to my surprise she is still thinking it is a good idea. Then she says, you'll probably need a small workshop still in this garage for the lawn and house tools…..do you have enough tools to have them in both places. Now knowing that I have enough for three or four workshops, I said, I might need some stuff. (Hey I'm not dumb!)

So my questions are many fold but I'll start with the major ones,
1. Stick built or Pole building…...I hate the look of a Pole Barn, but even at that if I insulate it heavily…would the costs balance out?

2. I'll be 150 feet from my house….is the cost of running water that far for a bathroom going to be prohibitive?

3. My Neighbor is a installer for furnaces…but new construction….he could get me a cheap furnace and install it…is it still worth buying a min split, instaed of a basically free furnace and a purchased window air unit(s)?

4. I can't really get a driveway back there, so do I get an old lawn tractor and cart to get plywood back there? I'm sure I could modify something to fit a full sheet…any ideas? And maybe put in a sidewalk?

5. Should I put in concrete with gaps ( I don't know what to call them…they are gaps with diamond plate covers) for DC?

6. Aren't two door Jeeps soft top pieces of crap? Money pits?

Thanks for all your help….I am not going to do it this year…just put things in place…and see if it's practical, mostly.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

sounds exciting mike getting the dream shop we all want.im like you working out of a 3 car garage so im not gonna attempt any of your questions just wanted to wish you some good times ahead and enjoy the process my friend.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

I see you are in Iowa. The very best would be a boiler with heated floor if you have nat.gas, and mini split for AC. That way you get AC and don't have a shop fylull of HVAC ducts. Window AC is very inefficient. The floor trenches with plate cover is great, but would be pricey if you can not do it yourself. At least run some 5" ducts under the floor,( coated in roof coating for rust ) to some central spots in mid floor. Have some 1" conduits run under the floor to each wall, this will save alot of work and expense later. Even a couple 3/4" to each wall. PVC conduit is cheap and an easy install. Just need to add ground wire. Do not use Romex, it can not be upgraded if your plans or needs change. The water is easy, just bury 3' deep. I ran a 2" PVC conduit and pulled in a plastic water line. If it ever leaks, easy to replace without a shovel. The sewer would cost more because it has to be run with the correct pitch. I even put a crawl space under my concrete floor for a tornado shelter. And do not forget a few floor receptacles in the center, just need to use the proper floor boxes. These come in pcv, making it affordable. Run a 2" conduit to shop for power, and a couple 1" spares for whatever the future holds. TV, internet, land line phone. You are lucky to be able to plan ahead and do this shop. I did all the above in mine, but I only have a 16×22 add on to my garage.


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## JCamp (Nov 22, 2016)

Hate to say it but she may be cheating on you. Lol


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

My first concern would be to make sure the land drains well and any structure you erect won't channel rain water toward the house.


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## moke (Oct 19, 2010)

Thanks Guys!
Pottz-I am excited….lots to figure out, get estimates, take trees out…etc…so the next year or two is going to be busy!!

IBEWjon--Lots of great advice there! I need to read it it over carefully and make some notes….thanks! One question though…I will have to pull 150 feet of water line though that 2" pvc…is that doable?

jcamp….lol….not likely though..

Mr Ron…The Shop would be up hill from my house…the whole property is…and it will be at least 150 feet from my house, with a tiled waterway in between.


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## JayT (May 6, 2012)

I'm jealous. Both of the potential shop and wife pushing you to do it instead of the other way around.

Shop uphill from the house makes sewer easier. That was my first concern when I read the OP, but ibewjon already addressed it. Running water and sewer that far isn't going to be cheap, but if I was building a new shop that far from the house, it would be an expense worth doing. I'd hate to walk that far to use the john.

In a dream shop, I'd do radiant heat in the floor, too. Nice even heat without air blowing sawdust everywhere and clogging up filters. If extremely confident in machine placement, then I would do a concrete floor where machines would sit and less used areas and ~two to three foot wide wood covered troughs where I would spend most of my time standing-like in front of a workbench. Make lift off wood panels to access the troughs that would sit level with the concrete when down. Easier on the feet and knees and you can run dust collection and electrical through the troughs, as well.

Best of luck.

And yes, any soft top is kind of a PITA-convertible, Jeep or whatever. They have to be replaced on a periodic basis-how long depends on use, weather, etc. The fun factor can be worth it, though, as would the happy wife.


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## moke (Oct 19, 2010)

JayT…
I have been kicking around several ideas….I could do without a John, but as you say it would be nice and running water in the shop is very nice. I currently own and operate a Photographic Studio, and we shut our darkrooms down 13-14 years ago for computer labs, and I have a couple 4' long corian sinks just sitting in the basement, and one has my name on it for the shop.

Not sure about radiant heat though. I get that it is even and nice, but it is very slow to react…ie coming up to temp very fast. Sometimes I like to work a couple hours then shut it down for the night….I would like to keep it at 45 degress then run it up when it is time to work. From my experience with radiant heat it would take at least an hour to bring it up 20 degrees. Not sure if I want that…..but on the other hand mini splits suck in the dust…..so need more advice there. Still thinking forced air with limited to one duct duct.

One more question for everyone…..wifi….could I just amplify me current wifi, or would I need something more 150 away?

Thanks for everyone's help


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## GR8HUNTER (Jun 13, 2016)

all answers are IMHO
1- STICK

2- YES ON BATRHROOM/SLOP SINK

3- WITH AIR HANDLER YO UWILL HAVE RETURN AIR NOT WITH MIN SPLIT

4- ALL TERRAIN DRYWALL CART

5- WOOD FOR FOOT/BACK RELIEF

6- NO COMMENT LOL

7- DEPENDS ON DIFFERENT THINGS WALLS/WINDOWS /TREES / YOU CAN GET A RANGE BOOSTER OR BETTER YET RUN CAT 5/6 CABLE OUT THEN YOU HAVE WIFI IN BOTH PLACES :<)))))


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## JayT (May 6, 2012)

Radiant is most efficient when turned on and left alone. Ask a professional, but I think you'll find that with radiant (and mini-splits) it costs less to just set it and forget it than to constantly try to adjust. A lot of us are used to forced air, which can produce some savings by varying temps with usage. Radiant just requires a different mindset.


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## CWWoodworking (Nov 28, 2017)

1. Stick

2. Personally I would skip the bathroom and use that money for new tool.

3. I would take advantage of the free furnace. Most of the year, you don't need it anyway.

4. I would figure out someway for a small driveway. For a short period of time I didn't have a driveway to mine. Never again would I go without it. Even if it's a small one lane.

5. Run DC over head. As much as I like the idea of wood floor,I would still do concrete. Just for the versatility.

6. Jeeps are kinda like a boat. The best days are the day you buy it and the day you sell it. I cant think of a more over priced, useless vehicle than a Jeep. The good news is they hold there value great.


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## moke (Oct 19, 2010)

Great Advice guys….
Gr8hunter..All terrain dry wall cart!!I did't know they made that….even if I put in a sidewalk that is still awesome.
so mini splits pull the air from outside? I don't need to worry about dust? I have a air cleaner and a decent DC, so I really don't have a lot of dust anyway, except when I turn….that seems to be a never ending source of dust….I have a big intake on a stand…it sure doesn't seem like its very efficient though. I have a couple hundred feet of cat five! Thank you.

JT: Thanks for that. My in laws have radiant heat….set very high….I always say they could cook meat on the counter tops….I guess that is what I think of when I think of radiant heat…maybe I should rethink it. I do like what CWW said though, I won't be using it but about 4 or 5 months a year….I might go with a free furnace and a huge DC unit.

CWW woodworking….great ideas…free furnace new tool! I am not sure how I would put in a drive as I have to transverse over a 12' easement…..I agree with you on the Jeep, but if that is what I need to do to fulfill her end of the bargain…I guess, I'm in.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

First, you could possibly put in an ejector pit and sewage pump to discharge to the house in a smaller pipe. Second, pull an underground rated CAT 5 internet cable out to garage and plug in an additional router. That is what I have. Third, the savings from radiant in the floor comes from the constant temp, and the thermal mass of the floor. It will cost less to operate if you do not cut the temp too much at night and then play catch up the next day. With a good dust collection system, I have almost no dust in my mini split filter.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

Mini does not need return air because the air never leaves the room, like in a regular ducted system to a furnace. Plus, with no open flame in a high efficiency boiler, there is no hazard of finishing fumes reaching an ignition source. Mini does NOT draw in outside air. And it can also be set for different air distribution patterns, left, right, up and down. And the older we get, the more the close bathroom is nice. You want a sink and water anyway, so you will need a drain.


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## MikeDilday (Feb 21, 2017)

Two door Jeeps are great and one of the most economical vehicles on the road IMO. Run your DC in the ceiling, not under the floor. That would give you total flexibility to make changes later. Concrete with gaps would be a sawdust magnet. For the heating and A/C I have a 18×22 shop with a window unit which is a heat pump. It heats and cools it in the worst temperatures just fine. Easy to install and economical to operate with the heat pump.


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## moke (Oct 19, 2010)

Thanks again guys..
Radiant heat sounds REALLY expensive…is that true?


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

I don't remember seeing the size of the dream shop. That will determine cost.


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## CWWoodworking (Nov 28, 2017)

If your retirement age, your not gonna recoup the money on radiant floor heat. Especially when you can get a furnace for free. If you just want it, ok, but it makes no sense money wise.


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## moke (Oct 19, 2010)

ibewjon- i'm shooting for 24×36, my garage now is 28×38…

CWW-I was wondering about that…at my father in law's house, there is this huge mass of plastic piping, a large manifold and a boiler….it looks like big $$$ to me! A mini split is looking better and better, both ac and heat…my nieghbor could get me one at cost and install it…of course my wife would have to baby sit his girls for the rest of her life….but why not? she loves them.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

Definitely nothing against mini, that is what I have. That is a house with multiple areas, and more than one zone, so more piping. If a standard furnace, if the free one is a low efficiency unit, free might cost more over time. I would get an estimate, it might surprise you, either way. With a warm floor, the air temp can be lower. At about 600 square feet per ton of AC, you will need about 1.5 ton AC, but the heat pump side may need a boost in colder weather. I needed my backup electric heat last winter. You can not get a bigger AC because it will cool too fast, leaving humidity. You can put a 4kw heater in the wall at each end for backup heat.. At 1.5 ton, that is 18,000 BTU. I just looked it up, a two zone setup with one outdoor unit is about $2200, plus line sets and install. That would be one air handler for each end which would be good circulation. You friend can do his own figures, mine is a rough calculate, no insulation, windows, or other heat loss, or gain components.


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## tomsteve (Jan 23, 2015)

" Aren't two door Jeeps soft top pieces of crap? Money pits?" 
97-06 wrangers were pretty decent depending on engine and transmission combo.
the 4.0 inline 6 was a dam good engine.
look into frame problems. i recall reading/hearing something about frames cracking/rusting.
there will be room in the garage once ya get yer shop build for you and your wife to learn how to fix her jeep without interrupting the workshop by the time that purchase is made. 

i think youre going to want to do a lot of studying on em.


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## Chashint (Aug 14, 2016)

It's easy to spend your money.

Stickbuilt
Spray foam insulation 
Insulated at the roof so no unconditioned space in the building
I would use forced a air furnace / AC and I would filter it so doubles as the ambient air filter 
I would definitely install plumbing / sewer 
I would want an office space with full bathroom facilities (+ a urinal)
If there's the potential of parents / children needing to be very close by I would probably plan to easily convert the shop to full up living quarters if the need arises 
Definitely install hardwired internet / TV
Strongly consider standalone electric meter and maybe water meter too
I move tools around to much to install dust collection in the floor but if your layout is absolutely a for sure thing that might be very nice to have
If it can be built open span that's the way to go


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

Where I live, you won't get a separate electrical service unless you are a large user. And with that goes a rate increase to a commercial rate. ( Non residential ). The same goes for 3 phase service. And with vfd's, that is not needed


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