# Expensive hand tools



## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

When speaking about high quality hand tools like planes and chisels, Lie Nielsen's name pops up. They are expensive and out of reach to most woodworkers of moderate means. Two other tool companies are hardly ever mentioned in polite company. They are Bridge City Tool Works and St James Bay Tool Works. Has anyone ever bought anything from them? Their prices are 3 or more times the cost of Lie Nielsen products. Do you think the prices they ask are justified? The companies have been around for a good number of years, so someone must be buying from them.


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## Woodbum (Jan 3, 2010)

My LN tools are "heirloom tools." That means that whoever gets them when I drop dead will say: "I can't believe that dumba** paid that for a plane. Oh well, my money-I worked hard for it and I can piss it away if I like. Excellent tools from a great American crafstman. It doesn't get any better than that. I merely covet Bridge City tools.


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## Buckethead (Apr 14, 2013)

Bridge city tools seem superfluous to me. Just too over the top. LN does it right, in my view.


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## ColonelTravis (Mar 19, 2013)

St. James Bay prices never seemed outrageous to me. Expensive, yes, but I'd put them in the L-N price category. I've been tempted to buy their stuff, just haven't. I agree with Bucket about Bridge City. Tools look very well made but I'd never pay that kind of money for them.


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## JoeinGa (Nov 26, 2012)

Well….... if money's no object, and you're trying to impress the neighbors …...
.
.
Why NOT?


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

And why not Ron Brese, and Marcou, or Anderson. There are many plane manufacturers out there with varying pricing and Quality.

But lets face it, when you get in that league, its a different playing field. Its about disposable income and a need to spend it.

If the question is "are they worth the extra" it depends on your perspective. The high price tools hold there value, so if you have it!!!

From a pure woodworking perspective I don't think they are worth it, from a financial perspective its probably different.


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## daddywoofdawg (Feb 1, 2014)

I'll take a stanley,some of their planes are over 100 years old and work like new;Sure there are prettier planes LN etc,but in the end they are tools for work.


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## Texcaster (Oct 26, 2013)

Tools don't make the craftsman …. that said buy the best you can afford. I wouldn't be without my Veritas DX60 but I'm also very happy with my $7 " Hong Kong " planes.


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## TravisH (Feb 6, 2013)

I have no issues with them pricing their tools however they want.

Would I drop the money on any of them, without a doubt. The issue for me is simply I don't get the time in the shop to really ever enjoy them so won't spend the money on it. Several hundred dollars for something I used frequently isn't hard to justify. I just can't get the time in the shop so don't spend the money on the tools. If I managed to get out in the shop on most days I would build a new shop and replace about everything I have now, with a few exceptions.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

I have some Barr chisels and they are badass. They 
hold an edge.

Other than that you get heavier castings with premium
planes, which adds mass. The well-machined soles
combined with the mass make for good results out
of the box. For some people, a premium plane is the
only way they are likely to experience what a plane
can really do.

If you're willing to read up and go through the steps 
to tune a Bailey, really tune it up, you'll get real nice
performance. It still won't feel as nice as a heavier
premium plane but the woodworking results will be 
comparable.


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## j1212t (Dec 7, 2013)

As someone who don't have the luxury of getting quality old tools as you do. I definitely am in favour of high quality tools. Got myself my first Veritas LA jack a month ago or so. - best decision i ever made, I hardly use any of my other planes now. Except for a dedicated smoothing plane which is a heritage tool from my great-grandfather.

In my case the high price tag is definitely worth it, instead of wasting time trying to get the crappy planes to plane some-what consistently, I can just grab the Veritas and get on with it. I enjoy it immensly!


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## bobro (Oct 24, 2014)

In a world where plenty of people party away a grand in a weekend, the idea that handmade work of art hand tools are overpriced is pretty much absurd.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

If a tool does what it is supposed to do, and dose it well, and does it out of the box, it's worth the price.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Out of the box, or time to rehab a tool? Doesn't really matter after awhile. After a hard day of use, both will need some maintainence work to STAY that way. In the til I have, the total SPENT for all those planes MIGHT add up to ONE L-N plane. Tain't no way ONE plane can take the place of 15 planes…..









Maybe $200 sitting there. All ready to go to work as designed by their builders.

Cheap? Or, just Frugal?


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## Racer2007 (Jan 13, 2011)

> Maybe $200 sitting there. All ready to go to work as designed by their builders.
> 
> Cheap? Or, just Frugal?
> 
> - bandit571


I think I would call it Smart.


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## ElChe (Sep 28, 2014)

Some day I will own something from Bridge City tools. I think they are functional works of art. As to premium new tools vs refurbishing old tools I can afford new premium tools so I buy them if the need arises and sometimes just because I want it. I have refurbished a couple of Bailey planes that work real nice. If I made a living with tools my approach might be different. I also like to support the various businesses that make premium tools as even ten years ago the craft of making hand tools was rapidly fading away. Nice to be able to buy a tool that is well made and works great without having to mess around with it to get it to work. Lie Nielsen, Bad Axe, Blue Spruce, Wenzloff, Bontz, Bridge City, etc. All make great hand tools and I appreciate having their businesses around.


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## OSU55 (Dec 14, 2012)

All depends on the evaluator/purchaser. I drive a Chevy instead of a Cadilac Escalade - not because I can't afford it, but because conspicuous consumption is against my "religion" - I can't bring myself to spend $ on something that doesn't bring anything more to the party than perception. Those Bridge City and other expensive tools fit there - no functional improvement, just the wow/bling factor of others knowing it was expensive.

I have some Veritas planes, not for bragging/ego needs, but because they can do things old Stanley's can't or aren't great at - end grain/shooting board and gnarly grain, and IMO are the best value tools of their type. I use my Stanley's when I can, because they will perform as well as anything else in those situations. I have yet to purchase a tool that didn't need something out of the box to make it perform at it's best. Even the Veritas tools need the RP cleaned off, sharp edges knocked down, and blades honed. The education I got refurbishing old Stanley's easily paid for the time put in, because eventually those more expensive tools are going to need some maintenance and the owner needs to know what to do.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

I seem to recall an episode on "How-it's Made" where a visit to the LN factory showed how they make planes. It seemed to be an automated process with little "fine tuning" or QA performed.


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## BillWhite (Jul 23, 2007)

It ain't the arrow, its the Indian.
Operators are the key.
That being said, good saw blades DO make a difference.
Bill


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## lateralus819 (Mar 24, 2013)

Bandit- You're one of the few who just likes to restore planes. You will buy even a parplus or a kunz just to restore it. Out of all the planes I've seen you acquire you could have had plenty of LN or Veritas planes and not had to put in so much effort. Obviously it isn't about that though.


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## Ripthorn (Mar 24, 2010)

I have not used as many planes as some, but I have vintage, LV, and shop made. I like my Stanley's fine, they work well. I also really love the infills I have made, they are beautiful and work quite well. However, both required time and effort to turn them into good usable tools. I love my LV because I don't have to even think about the casting, machining, what have you. All produce good results, all are very useful for their intended functions. I think that LV and LN are not all that expensive for what you get (especially considering the man hours I would put in to making anything remotely similar).

When you get into the realm of Bridge City, it's a totally different audience. John Economaki (sp) who runs Bridge City and does all the designs is a guy who loves the functional art. He designs very complex pieces that work very well, are difficult to produce, and he only produces a very limited number of each. That is the big driver behind the high prices. Others like Konrad Sauer produces an entire tool by hand and the results are absolutely pristine. So you are paying for tons of skilled labor there.

Really it all comes down to what you value and what you want. Want something pretty, or rare, or that a skilled craftsman made start to finish, or budget friendly? There's no point in judging anyone based on what they value in their tools, as everyone is different.


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

The need for a level of tool quality depends on one's expectations, and maybe politics, or something else. I've taken up wood carving now that I am retired. I bought the "A" and "B" palm carving tools by Pfeil about 10 years ago when I was planning my retirement and had the cash flow. If I had thought far enough ahead, I would have got the $919 set of large chisels back then, but I just didn't think of it. Now I have to discuss it with the wife, since the cash flow isn't really there. Don't get me wrong, I can afford them, it's just a talking point. I'm going to have to guilt her about owning 3 sewing machines, a serger (whatever that is, I just know that she has it), and an embroidery machine. My expectations for tools is that they must be of adequate quality. Pfeil fits that. As for politics, I could buy chisels made in China, but after working in defense for 30+ years, I just won't go there. Ever.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

> I seem to recall an episode on "How-it s Made" where a visit to the LN factory showed how they make planes. It seemed to be an automated process with little "fine tuning" or QA performed.
> 
> - MrRon


https://www.lie-nielsen.com/article/who-we-are


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## ElChe (Sep 28, 2014)

I just featured my nice tools in a parade. With balloons. And I pointed out to everyone that would listen that they were expensive and better than their tools. Then I jumped in my Escalade with my nice tools and drove to my mansion where I rolled around naked with my nice tools. Because it is all about perception after all. Pfft. By the way Chevy sucks.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

You know what they say "you can't take it with you". You earned your money, spend it as you wish and don't worry about leaving money to kids and relatives who will waste or fight over it.


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## BubbaIBA (Nov 23, 2011)

Lee Travino hustled the rubes by playing golf with a Coke bottle. The fishing guides in Mexico could out catch their clients using a soft drink can as a fishing rod and reel. It ain't the tool that makes the workman but, ceteris paribus, good tools make the work easier.

As with most things there are collector toys and there are working tools and depending on your interest most folks should be able to find their happy place. If you like fiddling with rust more than making things then old working grade tools are great. If you like owning rare objects then old collector grade tools and/or new ones like Bridge City may blow your skirt. If you just want to work wood then some of the new tools like the ones from Woodriver, LN, LV, Bad AXe, Blue Spruce, Clifton, and so on will get you to working wood with less hassle. With the exception of the collector goods, it's a trade off of money vs. time. Everyone's optimum balance is different.

As always YMMV,

ken


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## jusfine (May 22, 2010)

Very interesting topic. As someone who has purchased tools for almost 40 years, I have to agree with many of the comments about the tool not making the workman.

I look back at some of my early projects and can't believe I made them and am amazed at the craftsmanship, all with lower priced "inferior" tools.

I did restore a few older planes but do not enjoy it as much as creating shavings. Some people just like to restore planes, nothing wrong with that either.

On the other hand, seems a little dumb and snobbish to me when I see comments degrading the purchase of better quality / higher priced tools. If someone has the money to spend, good for them…why run them down?

To answer the original question, I did purchase a few Bridge City tools (squares and measuring) many years ago, mostly from eBay, as the prices were still quite reasonable. They are very nice, excellent fit and finish, but not vastly different from Lee Valley or Woodpecker comparable products. I do use the small squares, but most are still new in their boxes - bought as an investment.

Majority of my planes are Veritas, some Lie Nielson, with a few older Spiers and Norris. Lots of small Records, etc.

I admit I am a "collector" of sorts (tools and lumber), earned the income to buy what I like, but like to use the nice tools too. Have to go get my Escalade started…

My biggest fear is that when I die, and my wife gets rid of all my stuff, she will sell it for what I told her it cost…


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

> https://www.lie-nielsen.com/article/who-we-are
> 
> - Rick M.


Thanks for that link. I knew a guy who used to work at LN. If I had to move to a different state, it would be Maine. I lived there for a year and was impressed by the "Mainers" work ethics. The workers at the Bath Iron Works were a good example of the Maine work ethic.


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## jacquesr (Jul 3, 2014)

Thanks Mr Ron for pointing me in the direction of Bridge City Tool Works.
I thought Woodpeckers was the end of the world…. You have just expanded my horizon.
I love the design of their tools. Very classy and innovative. 
I don't think I will ever need what they make, but hey, very inspiring!
Thans again


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## Racer2007 (Jan 13, 2011)

> Very interesting topic. As someone who has purchased tools for almost 40 years, I have to agree with many of the comments about the tool not making the workman.
> 
> I look back at some of my early projects and can t believe I made them and am amazed at the craftsmanship, all with lower priced "inferior" tools.
> 
> ...


Put the real cost of the tools in your Will and Lock it away. You can call it your Insurance Policy Payment.


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## jusfine (May 22, 2010)

Thanks Richard! That is an excellent idea. That last comment was something that a friend/neighbor of mine said one time, I thought it was great.

I am fortunate that my wife grew up in a construction home and atmosphere, whatever you needed for tools were purchased for the work, so I don't have the issues some guys do.

She has even encouraged me to go the Festool route and get rid of a lot of my "dust-making machines" to avoid future health concerns - says she would rather have me around an extra few years if buying those tools help…

On the other hand, I have bought her a lot of expensive quilting "tools and equipment", so she keeps busy in spare time with that.


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

Right on, Randy! My wife calls my wrenches, sockets, ratchets, etc, "toys". I've made and saved tens of thousands with those wrenches, working on my own vehicles, and others' vehicles as a mechanic. My wife has, as I posted earlier, all kinds of equipment like yours, and material crammed all over the place. Even my old drafting table got commandeered as a layout table for quilting. I need a bigger house. My "shop" is just part of the garage that no one can park in because most of it is storage.


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## Racer2007 (Jan 13, 2011)

> Right on, Randy! My wife calls my wrenches, sockets, ratchets, etc, "toys". I ve made and saved tens of thousands with those wrenches, working on my own vehicles, and others vehicles as a mechanic. My wife has, as I posted earlier, all kinds of equipment like yours, and material crammed all over the place. Even my old drafting table got commandeered as a layout table for quilting. I need a bigger house. My "shop" is just part of the garage that no one can park in because most of it is storage.
> 
> - Dark_Lightning


I don't have the Wife anymore but I do need the House to put my Toys in.


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## lightcs1776 (Nov 14, 2013)

Bandit, I love those old planes. I can't invest in them, nor can I use them with the skill that you are able to apply to them, but I love watching how you take old iron and make incredible items with the "simple" old tools.


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

> Right on, Randy! My wife calls my wrenches, sockets, ratchets, etc, "toys". I ve made and saved tens of thousands with those wrenches, working on my own vehicles, and others vehicles as a mechanic. My wife has, as I posted earlier, all kinds of equipment like yours, and material crammed all over the place. Even my old drafting table got commandeered as a layout table for quilting. I need a bigger house. My "shop" is just part of the garage that no one can park in because most of it is storage.
> 
> - Dark_Lightning
> 
> ...


Well, I'm not getting rid of her or trading her in, it's just an observation about different people's views of material worth. I think I need a house on acreage where she can do her quilt stuff in another building, I do my wood and metal working in another- and then one for vehicle maintenance. I'm tired of laying in the street to change the oil in my vehicles. But, not happening in the foreseeable future.


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## Kentucky (Feb 9, 2015)

Hi, Im pretty new here but I may be able to offer some insight here..Im a blacksmith/bladesmith by trade(retired as my wife runs the business now full time)..Our lively hood depends on selling folks high quality knives,axes and tools..Now first let me say I have plenty of old tools that I refurbish though Im blessed with a metal working shop its easy for me.Most of my commercial woodworking tools are older Stanley's etc. I can surely see why some folks want to use old good quality tools without paying premium prices. Then some folks just want a higher quality low maintenance tool..Especially the ones who use them for a living. Maybe you need to use it right then and right now and you need to work instead of sharpening and tinkering so much.Plenty of reasons. Prices are subjective, when you have an individual craftsman making things one at a time it just costs more to produce but at the same time customers expect higher quality for that higher price..It costs a lot to produce good cutting tools..We might have hours in the heat treat alone..When something is forged then we have to do three normalization cycles which takes a lot fo time. Then the hardening.We use metallurgical grade quench oils(which may cost $100+ for a 5 gallon bucket) or in the case of air hardening steels we use large aluminum quench plates and a digitally controlled heat treating kiln. Also in the case of higher alloyed steels you need a sub zero quench or LN treatment to take care of retained austenite..All this costs a lot of money and takes a lot of time..Thats just in the heat treat, not even in the making of the tool..Its really just aboutn what you need, what you want and what your willing to pay to get it.


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