# Do you sell?



## RussellAP (Feb 21, 2012)

LJ has every kind of woodworker you can imagine from the pros to the guy with a large closet and a coping saw.

I often wonder as I look through the projects, if the item is for sale and how much it is, and whether or not it sells at that price.

I don't really see a reason to not put a price in, it's just as important for those of us who sell our work to have our friends and others input on our price. We all tend to be proud of our work, which is reflected sometimes in the price.

Take cutting boards, I'd really like to know how much to sell them for and how to sell them best, but you never get that from the projects and it's just as important as the wood used and the process used to make it.

Determining a price for your work is not an easy process and it's not all about cost. My cost on most small items is practically nothing because I use local mills, so a bread board or cutting board only costs me about 10$ to make, but how much is it 'worth'?

What are your thoughts?


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## rrww (Aug 12, 2012)

I agree that it would be neat to know what some things go for, but those numbers are worthless to your business. Your target market, location, shows that you sell at, and how you sell value to your clients determines how much you can charge. It can be no fun but you have to be a good salesman. Not to mention there are people who make something really cool, but how long does it take to sell? Years?

You have to look at your numbers to determine how to price your cutting boards. I have a gang rip saw and could make blanks real quick, let's pretend the next guy uses his table saw for the ripping. Everything else the same, I can sell my boards a little cheaper than he can. The other guy has to add value to his product by saying its all hand selected and cut one at a time to make the best possible looking cutting board. Both ways work fine and will put a little money in your pocket, but they have different prices.

Good luck! - do you have a website?


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## RussellAP (Feb 21, 2012)

rrww. I have a couple where I list my stuff, but nothing ever happens on a web site unless you somehow 'drive' people to it. I'm a woodworker not a 'driver', whatever that means. Even Facebook seems a waste of time, I have an audience of over 850, yet not one sale from there. Most of my business comes from random ads like Craigslist, and some other more permanent ads I've placed on diner tables.


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## hydro (Aug 9, 2013)

As someone who has been involved in sales and marketing my entire life, and as a former professional wood worker, I have a couple of thoughts. First is what you are selling a "commodity" that can be purchased at the local retailer? If so, just go there and you will see what the going pricing is for what you make. Don't expect to get much more because it is "hand made" or "high quality". Your cutting board product is a prime example of this. The majority of people buy on utility and price, and you need to be in that "cost/benefit" window for them to pull the trigger.

If what you are building is more specialized, like say an intricate display cabinet for small items, you have a better chance of getting more money for your work. Particularly if what you make could be considered "Artistic" by someone other than yourself. I know that I consider what I build to be art, but I also know that other people do not always share that opinion. That "Art" conceptualization separates your product from utility and can bring much higher prices.

Furniture is another difficult area and compares closely to the commodity analogy above. People will see an article of furniture and mentally compare it to what they can buy in the big box retailer, and then subliminally set a price in their mind as to what it is worth. To get good money for a furniture piece you will need to do it on a custom basis and first convince your customer that your craftsmanship and materials choice are going to give them something with more personal meaning than they can get on the retail floor.

Overall, the idea of making a living doing woodwork is tough to make happen. I've been on that road and have seen many friends try it, but only a few have seen any level of success. If you want to pursue it on a hobby basis and sell a piece now and then, that is much more realistic and should be more enjoyable as well.


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## RussellAP (Feb 21, 2012)

hydro, thanks. That is useful info. I would be happy to remain a hobbyist who can make about 1800$ a month. I'm not looking to go Hollywood or anything, my wife works and we have insurance through her so I doubt I'll even declare myself as a business at all. Just keep it a guy with a trademark.


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## shawnmasterson (Jan 24, 2013)

I have been woodworking since I was 18 (now 31). I have been in it for the money. I followed the all mighty dollar, and it has had me trimming houses, stairs, making built-ins, and doing window replacements. Most all of my jobs are T&M and cash. Since I have been coming here I have been drawn to the CB and more fun stuff, but have often wondered the same thing. How much sells, where, and for how much. I love what I do, but I don't want a bunch of stuff laying around that I can't move. I also don't want to devalue the market. So often I see people doing work for very little profit just to keep working. As a UNION carpenter I believe in a fair day's labor for a fair days pay. If I can't make $25 an hour cash it just ain't worth getting in the truck. just MHO.

Good thread by the way


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## Loco (Aug 11, 2013)

If the tools (a shop, not a HF skil saw) are running and you're not making $40 +/hr find something else to do.


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## rrww (Aug 12, 2012)

Russell, I was just checking out your facebook, good looking stuff. The pictures of the serving board with bread is excellent - it creates emotion with your product.

The website is our bread and butter, but your right it takes a ton of time / effort. Its not fast and the payoff started about a year into it. Facebook isn't much for us either, but we haven't been putting in a lot of effort. But i'm selling business to business for the most part, not much is retail. A one man shop is a tough job.

If you have a goal of $1800 a month free and clear - your half way there knowing how to price your items to get to your goal.

Having seen your facebook page - is there one niche you want to be involved in or are you just looking at doing pretty much anything as long as the money is there?


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## huff (May 28, 2009)

Russell,

Can we be brutally honest?...........lol


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## Puzzleman (May 4, 2010)

Russell, I do woodworking full time ans have been for over 10 years. The most important thing that I have learned is: Marketing is just as or more important than the woodwork.

Marketing is the hardest thing for me to do. It is much harder than woodworking. However, I know that is very important. If I do not market, then I don't get to woodwork.

Marketing takes many forms. What you currently do may work for you. If you want more, you will have to market more.


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Hydro, boo hiss…


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## huff (May 28, 2009)

Russell,

OK, I won't be brutally honest, I'll be gently honest! 

I'll try to answer some of your questions;

*Take cutting boards, I'd really like to know how much to sell them for?*

If you go to Esty and type in handmade cutting boards in the search box, you will find your answer; there are 10,325 cutting boards for sale in one location (Esty).........................and after looking at the first 500 boards or so; I got bored (as I'm sure any consumer would) and realized 95% of them looked a lot alike and the prices were low.

From that alone you should be able to come to one of two conclusions.

One; you can use that as; "what the market will bear" and jump on the band wagon and build and sell your cutting boards for the same price and even join the crowd and add your cutting boards to the selection on Etsy.

Two; you can use that as "knowing where *NOT* to try to sell your cutting boards and set your own price and find a market that will buy your product.

* I would be happy to remain a hobbyist who can make about 1800$ a month.*

*so a bread board or cutting board only costs me about 10$ to make, but how much is it 'worth'?*

* so I doubt I'll even declare myself as a business at all.*

You're in the same delima that most woodworkers find themselves; they want to treat a business like a hobby because a hobby is fun and a business is a lot of hard work.

I've found this is the biggest problem woodworkers have; trying to bridge the gap between being a hobbyist and being a professional woodworker.

If you're selling your work, you're a business and you need to treat it like one. If you're a hobbyist, then it doesn't matter how much you charge for your work or how much you make a month.

Example; You say it only cost you $10 to make a cutting board, so as a hobbyist, anything you sell it for over $10 should be a profit. (Sell your cutting boards for $11 each and you will probably be able to sell more boards then you will be able to make).

As a business, you can not "make" or manufacture that same cutting board for $10.00. You have to know the true cost to manufacture something so you can determine a price to sell it for….............and sometimes we have to realize we can not manufacture certain things and sell them for a profit.

Like Jim (puzzleman) mentioned in post #9; marketing is just as important, if not more important then knowing how to build something.

*Pricing, Marketing and Selling* are the three key elements to having success in making any money at woodworking.

I cover this in more detail in my book ( you have a copy) and in my blog series on "pricing your woodworking to make a profit" and "how to market and sell your woodworking".

I hope this can help other woodworkers that are also struggling with this part of their woodworking. You can make a good living at woodworking, but you will have to put as much effort into learning how to price, market and sell your work if you want to make anything from your woodworking.

Good luck to everyone.


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## SteveMI (May 19, 2009)

Another $0.01 to add.

Commodity items are only mildly profitable if you can sell in volume. If you are selling in a venue that is person to person, like a weekend show, or online, then you need to be unique in order to make money. Cutting boards, pens, turned bowls or anything from a magazine article is going to be cut throat. For a while in my area the band saw boxes prices were really depressed, but seem to getting to where they should be. Square boxes with inlay do not sell (I have two larger totes in the garage).

Custom or personalized items can make money. I used to make smaller tables for narrow hallways, under low windows or to fit in kids rooms. These weren't available in the normal stores. The selling location went away and so did that line. I've been making cribbage boards in the shape of my state (Michigan) peninsulas, which are steady income in three stores. Of course, cribbage isn't that popular any more so the sales only take 3-4 days a month to maintain inventory. I've seen people taking orders at shows for routed address signs with names, stools and small tables with children names in them and personalized man cave signs that were priced where there could be reasonable profit.

Steve.


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## Richforever (Mar 19, 2008)

My 2 cents: being market specific is important. Link the feeling that a market segment wants to buy to your product, and charge what that market segment pays for that feeling elsewhere. For example: the psychographic segment from Stanford Research Institute of "belongers" wants to buy the feeling of "tradition". What they are trying to avoid is "the breakup of the family". Selling a well-made piece of furniture to this segment would entail mentioning that it will be passed down through the family for generations to come. The price has to be high enough for them to associate the furniture with something so important as family tradition. People will be happy to throw money at you in order to buy the feeling that they want. Most businesses don't take the effort to figure out what feeling they should be selling. Hope this helps.


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## Wildwood (Jul 22, 2012)

Peruse events and pick one or two places to visit and see what is selling. Never been to MO, so have no clue about events listed.

Want to see if people are buying, talk to a few crafts people that are not busy about event you visit and others in the state they like. You want to make a day of it gathering information before deciding to do an event.

http://www.missourifairsandfestivals.com/

I would be interested in visiting this event if lived close by:

http://www.missourifairsandfestivals.com/410997-fall-into-arts-kennett-missouri-september-2013.html

Have done both juried & non-juried events, both types and have people selling import junk these days.

Do not pass up local Farmer's markets.

JMHO, meeting people face to face will lead to more sales than passive web pages. If have a business card with name, phone, e-mail, and web site info might lead to more sales.


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## PineChopper (May 21, 2012)

Great thread.
I'm trying to get some projects done to start a business too.
Hope to finally post some projects in a week or so.


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## RussellAP (Feb 21, 2012)

Guys, I've been thinking that the local farmers market is the place to sell my bread and cutting boards. It costs me 35$ a day, or I can get a season pass. It's a very popular market. So I plan to check into it next week. If I make up some smaller boards and have about a dozen larger boards, I think I could do okay. But we'll see.


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## Christophret (Dec 2, 2012)

Wait a minute.
Your last post was titled " Times are a changing" 
Now your post is, "Do you sell?"

Im sorry, but thats just too freaking ironicly funny to let go.


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## JAAune (Jan 22, 2012)

Someone brought up cutting boards and mentioned how saturated the market is with such products. Oftentimes when people first get into woodworking they decide to start with inexpensive items then automatically look at making easy to build items. This is the catch. If it really is easy to build then everyone else will be making it and the market will be saturated.

I know I started down that route a few times then decided it wasn't rewarding either in money or enjoyment. What I've since learned is to figure out how to do difficult tasks easily. This is accomplished with lots of testing, prototyping, and experimentation with diverse materials, tools and techniques. It costs hundreds of hours and time and a good sum of money as well but can pay off in the long run.

I've read an article about a guy that decided to sell a chair of his own design for $800. This is more than most customers will pay but it's also far under the price that most furniture makers need to earn a living. However, due to tons of practice, he honed the techniques for building those chairs to the point where he made good money on them. Other woodworkers would look at the numbers and decide it wasn't worth trying to compete with him.

I'm currently designing some wooden products (can't say what it is until it hits market) for another company and intend to streamline the production technique to the point where very few competitors would even want to cut into the niche. This is because there are hundreds of hours into the prototype and I can now produce a superior product 6 times faster than a master woodworker that doesn't have my sets of jigs and processes. The other guy might be the better woodworker but he doesn't have the specialized experience with my product.

The point is that developing a difficult product sets a woodworker apart from the competition. It's not always the skill that counts, sometimes it's just the amount of time invested in perfecting a design. Projects that look labor-intensive that are quick to make bring in the profits.

My pricing is pretty simple though. I just figure out overhead and materials then tack on the hourly wage I'd like to get for the product. If I can't figure out a way to get the hourly rate high enough I'll likely drop any idea of selling that item.


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## Finn (May 26, 2010)

As JAAune said: "This is because there are hundreds of hours into the prototype and I can now produce a superior product 6 times faster than a master woodworker that dosen't't have my sets of jigs and processes." 
......................This is how it has worked for me. I make small cedar boxes with inlay-ed images in the hinged lid and fireplace bellows also. I spent many hours refining how I make these items and now can mass produce them at a price that no one else will try to match and they sell easily at my price. (I enjoy mass producing things while other folks hate that.) It made me pretty good at making these boxes and bellows by tweeking the process over the many years I have been making them. I get the variety I like in changing the inlay-ed images. I now have over 150 patterns for the in-layed images.


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## Mahdeew (Jul 24, 2013)

Great discussions. One word of advice; do not use social media such as here or facebook, your phone, e-mail and such to brag about getting paid in cash for your work, implying that it was not declared. It will make you a target. NSA data collecting is not about 11 guys and a camel ("terrorists") rather much of the information gathered is sent to the IRS for tax collection.


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