# A Square Deal?



## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

I got an email from Woodcraft tonight. I'm sure it's a great square, but $169 on sale? I'm sure someone is going to tell me it's worth it, so let's hear it. Convince me.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Where's your patriotic billfold Charlie?

Like all Woodpeckers tools, the new Precision Squares are machined in their shop just outside Cleveland, Ohio. Made in U.S.A.


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## jacob34 (Mar 14, 2012)

that is a lot for a square, more than most of my tools. Hmm that was kinda depressing.


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## stonedlion (Jan 12, 2011)

I think I can get along without a NASA quality square, My (gasp!) plastic speed square get's the job done just fine.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

16" X 24" Steel Square
- Item#9541 $9.99

Made in China by the Wan Hung Lo Machinery Cooperative #4728, located rear of Won-ton Factory #98223, shipped to HF, USA on Chinese loan …....payee later cookeee.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Oh, I'd love to have one. But, like Katdaddy said, I might go $69.


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## Kickback (Mar 9, 2011)

Check those $9.99 squares sometime to see if they are really square. I bet they are not even close. I have several squares and not one of them is square so getting one that is guaranteed square is worth a lot to me. Same thing with combination squares. I have three of them at the moment and only one of them is square and it is a Stanley yellow one that I just bought because my others I found were not square after many mistakes due to lack of accuracy. $169 is a lot of money but you can be sure that anything from Woodpeckers is top notch. I just got my 50" straight edge rule and Paolini Pocket rule today after waiting several months to get it. It is a beautiful piece of anodized aluminum and is straight to .005". The pocket rule is really nice as well and will come in handy. I will probably get the square at some point but you have to decide soon as it is a one time tool run that may not come around again for a while and if you do decide to preorder make sure you have a lot of patience because these one time tools don't show up for quite a while.


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## Sawkerf (Dec 31, 2009)

@Kickback -
I have two Stanley 24" framing squares that are dead-on. One of them was slightly off when I bought it, but a few whacks with a center punch brought it in just fine.


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## Woodwrecker (Aug 11, 2008)

The only thing I'd try to convince you of Charlie is that yours nuts if you spend that kind of dough on a square.
Even at $69.00 that sucker better whistle Dixie.


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## JGM0658 (Aug 16, 2011)

Some brass, some rose wood and some patient, no where near $169 and prettier..Barring that, one made from a hard wood… probably $15 to $20.


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## HawkDriver (Mar 11, 2011)

"By buying a One-Time Tool, you will own a limited run precisely machined tool that will make you the envy of all your woodworking friends and you have a tool that will be used for generations."

I believe it will last generations….

I also believe that rather than being the "envy", you'll be "that guy" instead.


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## ShipWreck (Feb 16, 2008)

It is pricey….... but so is a nice Lie Nielson bench plane. I love Woodpeckers products, but cringe at what they cost.


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## Brit (Aug 14, 2010)

I can't see how they justify that price Charlie. It annoys me that just because many cheap squares are not square, manufacturers think they can charge a premium price for setting up their machines properly and cutting something at 90 degrees. I also doubt that it would be a lifetime tool if it is made of aluminium (UK spelling). I've had squares made of aluminium before and they dent easily and get scored if you use a knife with them.

I spent my money on a large Starret combination square. Now there is accuracy and longevity.


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## repeters (Apr 6, 2009)

They do make good looking tools. And I'm sure they are as acurate as they claim, but…. for $169.00, I just cant justify spending that much on a square.


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## Jeff28078 (Aug 27, 2009)

It may come square but drop it once and it's a $169 89° measure.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

Hey, the 18" is only $139.


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## HillbillyShooter (Feb 15, 2012)

Although I have no problem spending money for good, quality tools, this whole line of "limited edition" tools being periodically offered by Woodcraft strike me as over-priced gimmicks, dreamed up by some ad man to separate a fool from his money. I agree with Andy about spending "my money on a large Starret. . . Accuracy and longevity."


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## dhazelton (Feb 11, 2012)

If you understand the principle behind a 3-4-5 right triangle you could make a square out of hardwood just as perfect as a high dollar one.


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## AJLastra (Apr 19, 2012)

I did the same thing Brit did. Starrett. also, Johnson makes a nice square you can get at local home center. You can use a piece of scrap hardwood to make a nice base for it that will hold the square firmly to your project edges. I have a video of George Vondriska using one like that. Drilled holes through the square on the short arm, bolted the hardwood to the arm. didnt cost $169.00 and works just fine.


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## longgone (May 5, 2009)

Charlie…it was also good meeting you at the Jazz Fest. What a *f*antastic** show. I already have received 3 commissions since then.

I have the 12" and 24" woodpecker T squares and they are without a doubt extremely accurate. I don't even remember now what I paid for it when I bought it a few years ago but it was not as much as the framing square is but it is still 24".
It is hard to justify the price for a piece of flat aluminum that is set on a table of a CNC machine and created by a pushed button.
I do however strongly believe buying the absolute best tools you can afford.


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## GregD (Oct 24, 2009)

I guess I'm "that guy" that HawkDriver references.
I paid the $80 for the 8"x12" black version of this square.
Its configuration makes it easy to use in a variety of situations.
And I know its imperfections are far below whatever tolerance I may need.
It quickly and clearly tells me whether my tool, crosscut sled, jig or cut is perfect or not quite.
So I know whether to "try it again" or "move on".
With it I can get "perfect" with no more effort, and often less effort, than I used to need to get something "close enough".
And sometimes "close enough" was a disappointment, in the end.
So given my limited skill and high expectations, it has been worth the money, no question.

I'm thinking about the big one, but that may be a step too far even for me.


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## BrandonW (Apr 27, 2010)

I'm pretty sure it costs so much because it's red.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

My previous posts on this subject were mean't to be humorous, so here is the serious side:
Good reliable well made, accurate, and long lasting lasting do not have to priced so outrageously. There are still "Made in USA" items that that are excellent and can be owned by the average Joe without taking out their pocket book. I have no qualms with Incra, Woodpeckers, Starrett Veritas, and other stalwart manufacturers, but even some of these brands may not be what you expect. A prime example is the measuring tape I recently purchased, reasonably priced and a Starrett to boot. I was very disappointed to find when I received it to find that it was indeed a Starrett, but made in China.
The dilemma we face is that it is not really manufacturing costs that drive up exorbitant prices, it is profit margins. 
In earlier times practically all US made products were heavy duty, reliable and well made to last, they were recognized world wide. Our focus has changed from being proud to manufacture good products (or anything) anymore to one where only quick huge profits count, but that focus inevitably come back to kick us in the butt.

Watch a few episode of "Shark Tank" and see what venture capitalists want if presented with a worthy US invented product by a small engineering or other mom and pop outfit asking for capital to move forward. The Sharks want a high percentage ownership in the business and want to know if their product can be made in China, 'nuff said.

There are many excellent engineers and machinists who don't have a job anymore, not because they don't have the skill to make outstanding products, but because their greedy owners have gone the get rich quickly route, yet we seem to support that decision by purchasing imported sub standard replacements.

So the message is: Please, all you proud manufacturers of well made US products, keep you prices within the realm of today's US workers who are loyal up unto their pocket book limits. You may not make such huge profits, but manufacturer loyalty will pay off in the end.

Foot note: I have noticed very recently that "some" Chinese manufactured products have increased quality. I guess it was only to be expected that they would eventually improve their products.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Roger, in response to your serious reply…

I might consider $169 for a square if it was made in England and carried the following stamp:

"PROUDLY MADE IN THE BRITISH EMPIRE BY A CRAFTSMAN WITH BAD TEETH AND A PENCHANT FOR SPOTTED DICK"


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## HawkDriver (Mar 11, 2011)

Greg, I hope I didn't offend you, that was not my intent. I don't think we would even have this thread had the ad been for the $80 square you purchased a while back or if the one offered now was $80.

I would venture to guess that most of us here are willing to pony up the extra coin for a superior quality USA MADE product if the price matches the type of tool.

I think something worth further discussion is that Woodcraft is running these exclusive sales? Didn't they recently do one of these for a router bit holder? I may be way off base here and I apologize in advance if I am, but is Woodcraft out of touch with their consumer base? I have yet to see one person here that is committed to buying one.


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## rockindavan (Mar 8, 2011)

I just don't see why you need that much accuracy in that big of a square. I have a Starret 4" square, theres where you need precision for joinery and such. With a big square, a little bow or bump in the edge of your wood as a reference, and all that precision goes out the window.


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

For $169 it should come with a mounting base so it can sit atop your mantle. 
Surely, such a tool is meant only to be looked at and not used on a regular basis. ;-)


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## cajunpen (Apr 9, 2007)

Charlie, rest assured that it is a square deal - *for Woodpecker*! I guess that they think woodworkers will spend their hard earned money on anything.


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=69569&cat=51&ap=1

Chappell squares for comparison. +/- .003 on width and length.









79.00 for the small square + shipping
109.99 for the large square + shipping

I'd appreciate any high quality square, yes it's worth it.


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## mochoa (Oct 9, 2009)

With so many expert woodworkers making their own squares out of wood its hard for me to say that the additional accuracy is worth the cost.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Seems like a good price to me Charlie I think I'll get a couple ,What was you credit card number again ? LOL
A lot of WW tools seem way to expensive for what they are,but the're still in business that means they're still selling to someone out there.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

I only wish I could be a member of the more-money-than-sense club.


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## HawkDriver (Mar 11, 2011)

Don't forget to pick up the "Woodpeckers One-Time Tool 26" Precision Square Wall Case". That is "An MDF custom-fitted, wall mountable case" to display your square!!! Only $29.99!

I think I'll just buy the case, and print out a to-scale version to place inside.


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## lazyoakfarm (Sep 28, 2010)

I'm a tool junky and that's even too much for me. I have a lot of woodpeckers tools and I can't say enough about their quality. some of them are priced OK, not this one.

Since I have little talent, I need good tools.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

lazyoakfarm:
watch out if you get more talented, you may have to go upmarket to Bridge City Tools:
http://www.bridgecitytools.com/default/dss-6-double-saddle-square.html


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

You have to get it - it guarantees that the line you draw with it will simply pull your bandsaw blade right to it.
It is like a straight line autopilot - 
If you use a crummy stanley framing square, your finished project will look like it was make out of bananna peels.


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

Yeah buddy Bridge City Tools rock


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## GaryC (Dec 31, 2008)

Got the same notice. Don't use a framing square enough to ever make it worth that much. I like good squares. like from Incra. Couldn't use that thing


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## Smile_n_Nod (Jan 20, 2011)

I think Woodpecker's stuff is for woodworkers who wish they were machinists.


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

I would love to have one in my arsenal as the added edge would help ensure a 90 degree cut using track saws. If the cross cut from a track saw isnt perfectly square, the exponential growth of error begins : ((

For some, being perfectly square isnt a problem, for others it can mean the difference between a paycheque and "no" paycheque. Only you can decide that.

Having a bucket wish list myself, that item isnt at the top, but I see where it could fit in the bucket : ))

Bridge City, Lee Neilson, ……..just dreams ?


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## Halling51 (Nov 19, 2008)

Me too.
No matter how nice it look and how prezise it is . It is just too much for a square.

I have many and the difference for 90degrees is so little that paying 169$ is just too much even if I have the money.


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

@Charlie: The more-money-than-sense club is for the woodworker's clients, not the woodworker him(her)self.
;-)


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## dhazelton (Feb 11, 2012)

Remember that a framing square is really intended to be a tool for laying out rafter angles and stair treads. You're more than likely going to measure diagonals when you do casework so even if your square is off you can correct for it.


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## Woodwrecker (Aug 11, 2008)

Roger, your serious side comment was a whole mouth full of truth.
Ditto me on all of it.


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## NiteWalker (May 7, 2011)

$169 is too much for what it is. Accurate aluminum framing squares can be found for a lot cheaper.

$69 sounds about right. I used to be a big fan of woodpecker tools (their lifts and plates are still some of the best) but lately they seem to take too much pride in their own name and price their tools accordingly.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Cheap @ twice the price ;-))


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## ducky911 (Oct 6, 2010)

I have a woodpecker t square 24 " and a small 6".......paid a ton for them…are they worth it?...i do use them all the time…so ?


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