# what gouge steel



## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

Hi, I am looking for a gouge for spoon carving and a curious about the steel. Some gouge are listed as cast steel. I know they are not as good as forged but will they hold up and hold an edge. At 70 I am not looking for tools that will last 50 years just one that will hold up thanks Mike


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

IMO, it's going to be hard to beat a good forged high carbon tool. With that said, a good cast steel will be more than just acceptable.

The key word here is "good". You can have a poorly forged, poorly heat treated tool in both classes.


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## LittleBlackDuck (Feb 26, 2016)

From one extreme to another… not cheap but have you considered a Ball Gouge?


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## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

I think the term cast steel is used very loosely and difficult to figure out. Are the chisels just cast in the shape or are they cast and then forged.

Steels are all cast to some shape and then worked like forging, rolling, etc.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

Make sure you are not confusing cast steel with drop forging. This is an excerpt from my book" "D. R. Barton, A Glimpse of Early Edge Tools in Rochester NY"":https://amzn.to/2ymCisF (*sorry* for the shameless plug)

"In 1913, things were still humming along very strongly. A 1913 article was published in a trade publication, American Machinist, which Mack & Co. reprinted in pamphlet form as advertising. A rare insight into mid-19th-century edge toolmaking was still present a few years into the new century. The author noted the old practices still in use, which were unchanged at the Barton factory from those used decades earlier. "The present owners adhere to the practice of producing practically 'handmade tools' inasmuch as they believe that such methods result in a better product."
This practice was not totally a result of stodgy old-fashioned owners who were resistant to new technology. Drop forge stamping of infinite multitudes of iron and steel products were commonplace for as long as 40 years before this time; and some tool companies had no doubt converted to the drop forged technology in the making of edge tools. This is generally how it is done now. However, serious edge tool users of today often prefer the 19th-century chisels and slicks because of the cast steel used in their manufacture. (The "cast steel" on tools was not cast onto the tool, it was derived from cast ingots from a crucible furnace, which were heated and rolled into usable sized rods, etc. then forged onto a wrought iron or mild steel tool body.) The
30
cast steel edge will hold a sharp edge longer than the compromised lower carbon steel used in drop forgings. The 1913 pamphlet makes it clearer both why modern tools were now considered inferior and why the Barton factory was still using "handmade" methods as late as 1913: "The high grade of steel used would not stand the high heat which is necessary to forge tools out with one or two blows under a heavy drop forge or power press." The high heat needed for drop forgings evidently would burn high quality crucible tool steel, while a lower grade could be quickly hammered into final shape without degradation. The use of cast steel in edge tools required the slower process of multiple forge blows at a lower heat."
"


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

Thanks for the information, I never new the difference just that hand forged was best


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## jdh122 (Sep 8, 2010)

I can't answer questions about metallurgy, but have a bit of experience with spoon carving. 
Have you considered getting a spoon knife instead? I much prefer them to a gouge for carving the bowl of a spoon. You can get a decent one pretty cheap (the Mora, just make sure you get the one with bevel on one side rather than on both), or a new-to-me company from Hungary, Beavercraft tools.


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## Phil32 (Aug 31, 2018)

The differences in tool steel quickly disappear in the hands of skilled craftsmen. The carving techniques you bring to the task are much more important than how your tools were manufactured.


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

I have 2 spoon knives, a Mora I will never buy a Mora spoon knife again because in order to get it to cut you have to reshape the bevel. My other is a stryi an inexpensive knife but does a great job. I use the spoon knives to finish the shape of the bowl. My hands are to weak to hog out with one. I did re handle the stryi with a longer handle so I can use 2 hands. I have a gouge and have used it to hollow a spoon and it works but it is deep and narrow, I want one that is wide and shallow. The ideal gouge would be long bent .75 - 1 inch wide with a shallow sweep. power is not and option I like to work with hand tools


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## Phil32 (Aug 31, 2018)

You may not find a gouge that fits the curvature of the bowl or spoon you are carving. If it does it will be wrong for the next bowl or spoon. Look into the variable curves of the crooked knives used by Pacific NW native carvers. To make the curves meet smoothly it is often necessary to go cross-grain. Hogging out a bowl may also call for using a mallet.


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## P89DC (Oct 1, 2017)

I've been looking at the Narex spoon carving set. I have their chisels and I've been happy with the steel's edge holding and they were well manufactured, very flat.

Modern steel manufacturing is much more sophisticated compared to what was going on over a century ago. Using a paper from that time and extrapolating what you can buy today is kinda like looking at a candle catalog to help select LED lighting for your shop. "But what kind of wax were they using 200 years ago?"


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

true, ok then just compare vintage tools. I prefer vintage tools to modern any way


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## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

Over the last hundred years or more, the technology of steelmaking has rapidly changed for the better. There is much better compositional control and internal quality now. In addition, the understanding of structure and effects of composition have greatly improved.

When I hear people say that vintage steel is better, I try to figure out what they are saying. The best I can figure is that people are happy with the p!ain carbon steels such as a 1090 or O-1 tool steel. These are easy to heat treat and to sharpen edges

(Just a note…I was a metallurgical engineer for 40+ years making grades like 1050, 1090, 4140 and many others. Even in my time, there were rapid advances in technology and quality.)


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

I'm not so intellectual about the issue, I just like old tools


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

Do you have a Dremel tool? You can get bits to do what you want without breaking the bank. You can machine carve spoons with them, and a bit of sanding. I'm 67 and will buy a chisel in a heartbeat if it will do what I need. It's just a matter of perspective. I expect to live at least another 14 years and maybe more. If the corona virus gets me in a couple of weeks, too bad, so sad, I'll be dead and wouldn't care at all about the price. My spawn can use those tools. YMMV


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

i don't want to use power tools, I like hand tools


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## jdh122 (Sep 8, 2010)

> I have 2 spoon knives, a Mora I will never buy a Mora spoon knife again because in order to get it to cut you have to reshape the bevel. My other is a stryi an inexpensive knife but does a great job. I use the spoon knives to finish the shape of the bowl. My hands are to weak to hog out with one. I did re handle the stryi with a longer handle so I can use 2 hands. I have a gouge and have used it to hollow a spoon and it works but it is deep and narrow, I want one that is wide and shallow. The ideal gouge would be long bent .75 - 1 inch wide with a shallow sweep. power is not and option I like to work with hand tools
> 
> - Karda


Interesting. Lots of ways to get the same results when working with wood. I've seen people carve the bowl of the spoon with a gouge, but I've always thought it looked a bit too easy to stab yourself if it slipped (unless working at a workbench with a vise). Hadn't considered hand strength. I agree that the Mora needs to be reshaped to make it usable, and there are other better choices at the same price point. I have two longer-handled curved knives and really like them, but find them more practical to use for bowls than for spoons. A few people like the super long-handled knives (twca cam) where one hand holds the spoon and directs the blade while the other hand provides the force. They sure look cool, but I've never tried one.
Good luck finding a vintage bent gouge.


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## therealSteveN (Oct 29, 2016)

Double tap


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## therealSteveN (Oct 29, 2016)

> From one extreme to another… not cheap but have you considered a Ball Gouge?
> 
> - LittleBlackDuck


That thing is more fun that a case of puppies.


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## P89DC (Oct 1, 2017)

> i don t want to use power tools, I like hand tools
> 
> - Karda


Lots of nice Sheffield steel gouges on ebay. They were used for pattern making and now they're very reasonable as in under $50 shipped. Pick the older ones with tangs and you'll have the fabled pre-WW2 steel.


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## mpounders (Jun 22, 2010)

You might look at OCCT tools for spoon carving. They have several options for hook knives and a gouge and are really nice for the price. They are sharp and ready to use for about $26 each. My favorite spoon knife is from Pinewood Forge but they cost a bit more and you have to wait to get them. Worth every penny I spent! But I let students use the OCCTs!


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