# A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.



## rhett (May 11, 2008)

I don't mean to start any fights or make anyone upset, but if you are a PT/hobby woodworker who tries to make extra money, building things on the side, please take heed. If you don't have a firm grasp of what you are doing, you do not have the right to take peoples money for services rendered. Yes, its great to make money doing what you love, but the customer should not be your "school of woodworking". The reason I am ranting a bit is due to the built-in I am fixing for a client. Here are a few pointers to the neighborhood woodworker who built this POS. 
If you cannot make a square door opening, you should not build inset door cabinets. 
If you think exterior grade plywood is suitable for cabinets, you should not be building cabinets. 
If you are unaware of the weight and lack of screw holding ability of MDF, you should not use MDF for doors. If you think that a 1"x1" brass hinge is the proper hardware for 15"x24" MDF doors, well then you are just an idiot. 
As my old mentor used to tell me "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing"


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## JohnGray (Oct 6, 2007)

Good post!!!! Thanks!!


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## sbryan55 (Dec 8, 2007)

Rhett, I agree with everything that you have said. To tell the truth from your description I am not sure this piece can be saved. It really sounds like something similar to what is always shown on the show Holmes on Homes where you are looking at a complete tear-out and rebuild of the built-in and your client is going to have to pay for it twice.

That is tough.


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## LesHastings (Jan 26, 2008)

Dido!


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## RyanBrown (Aug 31, 2009)

By the sound of it, the original installer was probably just a general contractor/framer. I feel bad for the homeowner! Of course they should have asked for photos and references for past projects. I can't imagine doing poor work like that for even someone I don't like!

I for one would love to see some before and after photos!


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## kolwdwrkr (Jul 27, 2008)

for the record I've seen "pros" do work as bad. I've seen hobbiests blow the pros out of the water. It all depends really. The homeowners get what they pay for.


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## cabinetmaster (Aug 28, 2008)

DIDO…...DIDO…....DIDO. I have to totally agree with this post.


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## Innovator (Jan 20, 2009)

Just another horror story out there.

Very sad! TRUE but VERY SADDDDDDDDDD!!!!!


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

It sucks repairing other peoples mistakes


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## Kindlingmaker (Sep 29, 2008)

Even pros have difficult days. Novices have to start somewhere and home owners have to beware of who they are dealing with. ...but, When I worked as a handyman fixing everything you could imagine, I thanked all the poor workers before me for doing poor work because their poor work gave me a job. I will gladly still do this sort of work that I am physically able to and still thank those that messed it up before me. With that said, yes, everyone should be as near perfect as they can be with what they do…


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

As long as "cheapest is best" in most people's minds, this will be a problem. I could go on about electricial work too. I have seen some that borders on arson!! :-(( At least shoddy cabinets won't kill someone unless the whole thing falls on their head!!


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## KnickKnack (Aug 20, 2008)

"If you think exterior grade plywood is suitable for cabinets, you should not be building cabinets."

Please forgive my ignorance - I've not yet made a cabinet, but some are on the list.
Aside from the potential look of the stuff, what's fundamentally wrong with exterior grade plywood? It would be OK for an "invisible" back? Drawer bottoms?


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## Julian (Sep 30, 2008)

Rhett, it sounds like whoever built the bookcase watches too much diy network. Many of those shows make sub par furniture and pass it off as great stuff while making sure to not show any close ups of the finished work.


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

Experience is the greatest teacher ever

It gives the test first and the lesson later

I just fixed (removed) a huge deck for one of my brothers. The posts (concrete) were only 3' into the ground and the frost goes down 5' causing the deck to heav, almost taking the house walls with it. Parts were canti-levered but nothing holding the deck down by the folcrum…................and the guy who did is a busy contractor (deck was built prior to brother buying the house).........even the unistone around the pool had to be ripped up…..............a freaking nightmare…..............

A lot of kitchen cabinet companies (pros) make crap. Just look at the line up at IKEA, or Wal-Mart. At costco I saw a black lacquered vanity wioth granite counter, undermount sink and taps for 600 bucks and it looked "Pro"............I cant even buy the granite for 600…..............makes me think that the "wannabe woodworker" is the least of your worries?


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## rhett (May 11, 2008)

kolwdwkr: I too have seen "hobby" woodworkers that are masters of the craft. Being a professional is not a title substitute for being a craftsman. Ofcourse if you have unlimited time restraints and find solice in the craft, everything you make can be a masterpiece. 
knickknack: You can build cabinets out of anything you like, if that is your price point, so be it. It is a matter of quality. Personally I don't want any unsander mystery wood plywood in my cabinets. I'm not sheathing a house.
roman: There is no competing with slave labor and I never worry about weekend warriors.

Woodworking is like anything else, the more you do it, the better and more efficient you become. Heck, if someone actually invests the time necessary to become proficent, I would be more surprised if they weren't good at what they do. I just get irked when people claim skills and abilities they have yet to aquire, and then expect people to spend their hard earned money on it. I have infinate knowledge still to learn and I also know my limits. If someone wanted to commision me to build some of the cabinets I have seen Les make, I am smart enough to tell them no thanks. Yes, you can only learn new skills by doing new skills, but you can't charge people for work you cannot do. Just because you have an expensive table saw and can impress your wife and family with your woodwork. That is no indication that you should be a professional.

If it costs you money its a hobby, if it pays the bills then its a profession.


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## BTKS (Nov 30, 2008)

I agree rhett. You make a great point about charging for what should be a learning hobby. BTKS


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Not to sound callous, but as far as I'm concerned any no-skill jackleg has the right to charge whatever he wants if someone is willing to hire him without having seen samples of his work, or at least obtained references from people he/she trusts. Caveat emptor, as they say.


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## LesB (Dec 21, 2008)

I enjoy woodworking, fishing, gardening, and home repairs but I wouldn't want to make any of those activities a profession ( at 68 it is a little late to start anyway). It would spoil the pleasure of it.
When I occasionally take on a work for a friend, relative, or neighbor I do it for fun and only charge for materials and a little wear and tear on my tools. Some will say that is taking work away from the professionals but in most cases if I didn't do the work it would not get done at all. I almost always refuse to correct another persons mess. Those jobs always turn out to be a lot more work than they first appear to be and you end up with everyone unhappy about the situation.


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

false interpretation of ones "self" is what got us into this "recession"

nobody has or should have the right to "Mis-represent" themselves for personal gain to the detrement of another!


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## SteveMI (May 19, 2009)

Reminds me of a local auto repair shop that had a sign "We fix $49.99 brake jobs"


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## davidroberts (Nov 8, 2008)

kolwdwkr: very timely subject into today's market. clients want dirt cheap and then finds out what dirt cheap really buys. please pay no attention to the ugly little line below my name. i'll cover my face and leave now.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I stopped by a Macco paint shop and asked how much to spray a coat of primer over my old sign so it wouldn't be on the road after I got rid of the truck. They quoted $250ish. I said I don't want a good paint job, anything to just cover the old sign. You guys advertise painting whole cars for $149. The guy said those are just advertisments, we can't do that! )


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## huff (May 28, 2009)

I have to go back to kolwdwkr. I don't think it has a thing to do with the hobbiest. What I hate more then anything is the so called professional that sells the client a bill of goods and does a crappy job. Not that they don't know how to do it right, but they're more interested in doing as little as possible, getting paid and moving on to the next. I never repair or patch someone elses's screw up, I'll tear it out and start over. I just won't put my name on someone else's crap.
BTW…..Rhett, thanks for this post. I think it's a good one to talk about.


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## woodnut (Apr 22, 2007)

Well, I will have to agree with CharlieM1958. It is bad for someone to falsely represent themselves, but the buyer should always do there research. I look at it like buying a used car, do you really believe everything the salesman tells you or do you do alittle research and call the previous owner? Now I've had the bad happen to me, had gutters installed and drip edges for a really good price. I didn't call around and check on this guy because the price was good. After the first rain storm the drip edges blew off and rain ran between the gutters and home. Was I mad? Sure was, but at myself, should have done some research.


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## CanadaJeff (Jul 8, 2008)

It sucks when people get taken or pay for sub standard quality, but this seems like a problem that could have been avoided if the customer did a little research and asked to see other work by the woodworker.


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## GFYS (Nov 23, 2008)

I imagine it's more of a case of "home owner wanting to save a buck by hiring a karpinter for 10-15 dollars an hour". I see it all the time.


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## soup (Aug 28, 2009)

People have gotten so used to the price of throw away furniture, they might be thinking everything else should have the same price structure. It's too bad there are people willing to do that kind of work for someone else. They gotta have no self esteem.


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## daveintexas (Oct 15, 2007)

If you cannot make a square door opening, you should not build inset door cabinets. 
If you think exterior grade plywood is suitable for cabinets, you should not be building cabinets. 
If you are unaware of the weight and lack of screw holding ability of MDF, you should not use MDF for doors. If you think that a 1"x1" brass hinge is the proper hardware for 15"x24" MDF doors, well then you are just an idiot.

You might be a *********************************** (carpenter)

Sounds like a Jeff Foxworthy monolouge…............


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

That's like a lot of things is this life; It would be funny if it weren't so tragic!!


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## Sean (Jul 2, 2008)

What makes you think it's an amateur that built that? I've come into contact with plenty of 'professionals' that think nothing of cutting corners or using 2nd or 3rd rate materials.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

There are plenty of professionals that shouldn't be professionals. I've know a few electricians that had 1 year's experience 30 times instead of 30 years experience :-((


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## woodnut (Apr 22, 2007)

Topamax said "There are plenty of professionals that shouldn't be professionals. I've know a few electricians that had 1 year's experience 30 times instead of 30 years experience"

Now I really like that line Topamax. I see that all the time in alot of different professions.


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## rhett (May 11, 2008)

The man who built the entertainment center was an accountant who used to live next door to the client. So yes, he was a weekend warrior. They paid upwards of $4000 for the piece so they weren't looking for a bargain They assumed he was trustworthy/knowledgable because they knew him, and saw all his nice tools. This was a perfect example of someone who didn't know what they were doing and shouldn't be charging money for their skill. Client wants to fix it, not spend another few thousand to replace. Adapt and overcome. You can find examples on both ends of the spectrum. But as I stated in the beginning of this post. It was a vent for a particular situation. Being a professional doesn't make you a good craftsperson. Not bringing in a pay check as a woodworker does not mean you lack skills.


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## okwoodshop (Sep 15, 2009)

find out who built this POS and then follow them around and you will have job security for life,(theres, not yours). I have to say from experience that half the blame should go to the customer as they probaly didn't do there homework on the builder and were trying to save afew bucks. I have also had family and friends push me into a corner to build things for them that I told them were out of my league, some people cant see over the buck.


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## GFYS (Nov 23, 2008)

So the home owner "hired" an accountant to build their entertainment center…maybe they will pay me to do their taxes. Oh wait…there are laws against that.
Legitimate businesses are accountable for what they do via a bond and organizations like the BBB and chambers of commerce. 
Legitimate businesses provide contracts and warrantees. A neighbor with no contract can't be held accountable in small claims court. 
Mr hobby man…please stick to your "art" and leave the commerce to the professionals. We'll all benifit.


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## ropedog (Mar 26, 2008)

maybe we need to go back to the apprentince days, like electritions or plumbers still do. cann't call yourself a pro until you pass a test.althought i have meet plenty of housing inspectors that don't know there ass from the hole they just fell in. and hey if the job looks that bad and you don't want to do it then don't take the job.me personally i love fixing other peoples screwup's, makes me look good.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Woodnut, As my moniker indicates, I was sent to a doctor who falls into that league :-((

Business is about money. Craftsmanship is about quality. Some are capable of blending the two together for the benifit of all and others to the detriment.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

Without having read every word of every comment on this thread, I want to present a different point of view:

Hacks-whether they're amateurs/hobbyists or professionals doing a s*** job-make the good ones look* even better*.

They also help to justify and explain a labor rate that-to some people-sounds high.

The more familiar people become with horror stories like the one you're about to clean up-the easier it is for them to understand why quality is worth paying more for.

There's an old saying, in retail: there are three parts to business: quality, speed, and price. Pick two.

Good luck salvaging this one


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## kolwdwrkr (Jul 27, 2008)

For the record, it looks like there's people here, especially recently, selling work they shouldn't be selling, and then admitting they don't have the experience. There's no way around it. I think guys are just looking to make a buck and do anything to get it. As far as this post goes, the recession probably put mr. accountant into a predicament where he needed money. I've seen engineers, real estate agents, lawyers, etc all do woodworking at one point or another. Why can't an accountant? I'll never take a job fixing someone elses work, but it is job security for those who will.


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## Sean (Jul 2, 2008)

Oh wow. Paid an account 4k to build them something?
I enjoy the rant, God knows I've had enough of my own repairing in my home what Lowe's managed to convince the previous owner, "You can do it….and we can help!" I've often had the fantasy of the guy showing up at the door one day, saying "hey, i used to live here and did all this work…just wanted to take a look for nostalgia sake!".........and then after he finishes spitting out a few teeth, I show him around….

so, just wondering…do they still talk to the neighbor?


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Everybody and his brother thinking they are electricians is why I don't do residential. There are very few houses that haven't had the wiring scabbed onto somewhere. When the fire insurace company pays off, they look to stick the last knkowledgeable party that was in the house. Just because you can't see inside the walls, doesn't matter. There are laws against this, but it doessn't matter much. People want laws to protect them from fly by nights, but when they see the true cost, they really don't want to pay for a professional in a lot of cases.


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## cbMerlin (Jan 13, 2009)

Might be fun to send an e-mail to the "accountant" with a link to this forum. I've known a few accountants over the years that have tendancy to work in the "gray areas", sounds like that's a transferable skill.


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## jerryz (Jun 4, 2009)

I hear you and totally agree but soemtimes I wonder who the professional really are.
I want to relate something that I witnessed, a friend of mine bought a 2 bedroom appartment in a condo not far from where I live here in South FL. He had a washer machine and wanted to install a dryer also, he wasn't sure that the wiring was ok so he asked me to take a look.
What I found defies all we know about properly wiring a house.
There was a romex 2×12 wire that had been used to wire the 110V and the 220V outlets for the washer and dryer. What they had done is use the black and the white wires to run the 2 hot wires and they had used the ground (bare copper) wire for the neutral. And obviously there was no ground.
This to one of the circuits in the house that needs the ground the most.
The installation looked original to the house and was inspected or so the power panel proclaimed.
This was not the only issue this house had but was the most glaring one.
Needles to say we completely re-did the run and installed new outlets all code compliant.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

jerryz, The worst overloaded wire I remember seeing was a 60 amp subpanel in a school fed with 14-2 romex used the same way with 2 hots, bare neutral and no ground. Probably #2 was a triplex with 3 families trying to live on 1 #14-2 circuit with 30 amp fuse for all their kitchen and bathroom appliances. The insurance company that paid for the fire wanted me to be financially responsible for their loss. Fortunately, the fire marshal did a good investigation, so they gave up.


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## baller (Nov 14, 2008)

how about, be happy his mess ups provided you with work?? real unemployment #s, we're lookin at 1/4-1/5 out of work man…be grateful for what ya got!


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## WhittleMeThis (Mar 1, 2009)

Professional also = taking pride in your work and charging accordingly. I often take on new projects that represent new challenges, but I charge according (less per hour because of the learning curve) but I will not let a piece leave the shop unless I am satisfied in its quality. The buyer also has a responsibility to do their homework, as well as be cautious and pay a portion up front and the remainder when they are satisfied the work is completed to their requirements, e.g. buyer beware.

Understand the rant, but a buyer paying full price for poor quality work, well . . . its just not smart.

my .02 cents


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## rhett (May 11, 2008)

Chris, make no mistake about my gratitude for being able to cut wood for a living. I say thanks for all my blessings on a daily. When you are a one man shop and your shop is on your property, the amount of people I see in a month is about the same as a normal man sees in a day. I have to rant somewhere, my wife is tired of hearing it!


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

My policy has always been to never leave a customer unsatisfied . If they are too unreasonable or demanding, I just refuse there work in the future. That is there problem, not mine )


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

The customer is always wrong….


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