# Why is THIS not a square?



## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

It marks perfectly perpendicular and allows parallel scribing. Some say it's not a square and I want to know WHY?









It marks at perfect 90° - so why *isn't* it a square?

If a line drawn by this matches the line from a Starrett then isn't this a square?


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## BlasterStumps (Mar 13, 2017)

I like it Mark, what brand is it? I've been looking at a few of those wondering which one to get. It would be square enough for me : ). Also wondering what length would be a good all-rounder?


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## OldBull (Apr 30, 2020)

I took a look at these incra measuring tools and they were thin and flexible, I didn't expect that.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

That would be called a T-rule. Thats like asking why isn't tool X called tool Y even though they can do similar things.


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## northwoodsman (Feb 22, 2008)

I have some play in mine. If you don't properly register the blade with the extrusion, it isn't square. It all depends on what the item was designed for. A piece of 8.5" x 11" paper is square, but is it a "square"?


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## TravisH (Feb 6, 2013)

I don't know you should take it up with Incra.

It excels as a fine layout tool and definitely can mark something square but overall something I haven't found much use for in my daily routine as more of a one trick pony. I doubt I have used mine a dozen times in several years. I would say it is safe to say most woodworkers would take a Starrett any day.

I would never check to see if a blade is perpendicular to a table, quickly check a joint, score a line, check a mortise depth, etc.. and all in a much more robust package compared to the Incra.


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## BigMig (Mar 31, 2011)

Mark, 
I use the heck out of mine, whatever it's called. Mine's made by Incra. But - I don't use it to make 90 degree marks from the face. Maybe that's why it's not called a square.


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## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

*Old bull:*
Thin and flexible but only in one axis. Ridgid as hell in the other two. There is a perpendicular 3" end rule on them and the flex makes it easy to check in odd spaces.

*Northwoodsman:*
You'll have play in your Starrett too if you don't tighten the nut! Sheesh, what a complaint "Its loose when I don't tighten it." Doesn't sound like a tool issue to me!

*BigMig:*
My 6" Incra rule is my most used measuring and layout device. I have the 12" and 18" versions as well but they aren't needed too often, but all three are dead on in both directions.


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## AMZ (Jan 27, 2020)

I have one and I quite like it! However, I would not substitute it for a square, but for accurately running lines, it can't be beat!. I have many squares, including Starrets. But my absolute square is a Woodpecker tri-square. The red color of heavily used tools helps in locating them.


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

I've had one awhile and I use it all the time.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

I reckon it doesn't meet the tolerances of INCRA's squares so they don't call it one. They probably don't want to guarantee it square with the sliding arrangement. I wouldn't if I were them.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

Why is THIS not a chisel? They both have sharp beveled edges and cut wood:


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> Why is THIS not a chisel? They both have sharp beveled edges and cut wood:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That is obviously a hammer. I use one for hammering in finish nails.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> That is obviously a hammer. I use one for hammering in finish nails.
> 
> - SMP


Yes and no. But, why is THIS not a hammer?


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

...And why is THIS not a pry bar?


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Willing to bet, that these are called squares…









Stanley No. 20, 8" to check a corner for…..square….
and..









Framer Square, used as a straight edge….looking for high spots…

Can the OP's device do this….









Getting a depth stop set up to the correct depth…..


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> That is obviously a hammer. I use one for hammering in finish nails.
> 
> - SMP
> 
> ...


More specific purpose, thats an electricians hammer, or lineman's hammer.

A more philosophical question: can I go into a big box store, and set all the bevel gauges to 90 degrees and then sue them for false advertising, since they would now all be squares?


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> A more philosophical question: can I go into a big box store, and set all the bevel gauges to 90 degrees and then sue them for false advertising, since they would now all be squares?
> 
> - SMP


Very devious. I like the way you think.


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## dogratty (Dec 7, 2020)

Long ago, I started out as a draftsman. In the pencil, ink, vellum or Mylar days. I think of myself as lazy, but whatever I can do to minimize effort & time is efficiency.
I often used an Inca T Square for laying out parallel lines, worked perfectly. I knew it as a T Square, no other name seemed to fit. Tiny compared to my other T Squares, but a T Square all the same. Now that you've sparked that memory, I'll be buying a new one for use in the shop


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## redlee (Apr 11, 2016)

If it makes a 90, then its square,call it what you want.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> If it makes a 90, then its square,call it what you want.
> 
> - Richard Lee


No, you can't call it whatever you want. Rules are rules.

See what I did there?


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> If it makes a 90, then its square,call it what you want.
> 
> - Richard Lee


Hello Richard,

I'd like to introduce you to my good friend:


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## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

Thats not a *square!* It's a crooked!

*RichardLee:*
I agree. It makes as accurate 90° marks as your Starrett for 1/4 the cost. Plus it draws rules like a CNC.

*Rich:*
It has a chisel blade, it is not a hand chisel because you can't mortise with it. (Smartass!)

*Bandit:*
I'll give you the depth setting ability, but that has nothing to do with testing/setting square.

Your other square examples were correct and none of them can do the depth trick. My Incra Rule can do what the other squares can do to a max of 18". (It can't do the 24" framing square.)

It makes a perfect straight edge within its range (18"). The end marks allow me to stand it on edge to measure blade and cutter heights.

*SMP:*
The bevel gauge is not *fixed* square at 90°, so no, a squared bevel gauge is only a testing tool, not a setting tool.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

Ok some questions:

1. Where do I store the scratch awl on your square?
2. Where is the level vial? Hidden?
3. How do I use the 45 degree?
4. How do I measure inside corners?
5. Can I clamp this to a cabinet to hold square during glue-up?
6. Can i use it with a marking knife?
7. Can I use it to set table saw blade to 90 without the rule crumpling?


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## Eeyore (Jul 18, 2020)

> ...And why is THIS not a pry bar?


It might as well be a pry bar.
It is pretty darn useless for driving screws!


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## redlee (Apr 11, 2016)

I think some of you guys are plumb, or is it level crazy.


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## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

> Ok some questions:
> 
> 1. Where do I store the scratch awl on your square?
> 2. Where is the level vial? Hidden?
> ...


*SMP:*


the Starrett manual says the scratch awl is intended for metalwork. Where does it store on your framing or tri squares? 
what does a level vial do for a marking square? The tri squares and framing squares don't have one either and they are squares. If I need to check level the vial in the square is a joke vs a 4' level.
45° is an added feature and again not found on the tri or framing squares
the same way you do with a Starrett, you loosen the knobs, slide the base flush with one end and tighten back down. It even stands on edge.
you're kidding, right? Only a fool uses a measuring tool as a clamping aid. For that I use *corner blocks*
yes, you can use a knife but a .5 mm mechanical pencil can also fit in the marking guides.
yes, it stands on edge with no fuss and can be set for left or right hand use. It sets blades plumb and measures cutter height with ease.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> I think some of you guys are plumb, or is it level crazy.
> 
> - Richard Lee


Touché.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Meh….









and…









Most of my wood handled ones….not a fan of the all metal ones…


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> *Rich:* (Smartass!)
> 
> - Madmark2


I resemble that remark!


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> It might as well be a pry bar.
> It is pretty darn useless for driving screws!
> 
> - Eeyore


That was unexpected. What makes it useless for driving screws?


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## Bstrom (Aug 30, 2020)

> I have some play in mine. If you don t properly register the blade with the extrusion, it isn t square. It all depends on what the item was designed for. A piece of 8.5" x 11" paper is square, but is it a "square"?
> 
> - northwoodsman


No, it's a rectangle…


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> the Starrett manual says the scratch awl is intended for metalwork. Where does it store on your framing or tri squares?
> 
> 
> what does a level vial do for a marking square? The tri squares and framing squares don t have one either and they are squares.
> ...


#You mentioned Starrett in your OP so you were premising on combination squares. Not sure why you are bringing up other kinds pf squares now.

#same as above, why bring up other types that don't

#repeat 3rd time, every combination square i have ever seen does 45s.


EXCELLENT point! i would NEVER use a measuring tool like that T-rule as a clamping aid. But I can and do use a true square as clamping aids. Even carpenter squares since they have hardened steel blades.

#hmm ok, may try one, when I looked at them at Rockler it looked like my japanese marking knife would chew it up pretty bad. It kind of looked like the ruler was made from extra heavy duty Reynolds wrap.


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## Fresch (Feb 21, 2013)

That is a hammer to an electrician, and is other tools too, perhaps one of our most used tools.


> That is obviously a hammer. I use one for hammering in finish nails.
> 
> - SMP
> 
> ...


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## woodbutcherbynight (Oct 21, 2011)

> ...And why is THIS not a pry bar?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It isn't???


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## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

> ...And why is THIS not a pry bar?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You're both wrong! THAT is a chisle!


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

It can be whatever you want to call it.

It does look like a rule with a T on one end.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

Is everyone smoking something tonight?


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## AESamuel (Jan 20, 2015)

What an incredibly inane question. This thread has to be a joke?


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## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

*AESamuel:*
Not a joke. What defines a "square"? I contend if I can mark perfect 90° lines, its a "square" and just as precise as a 4x costlier Starrett.

In another thread I was told, firmly, that even though it makes perfect 90° marks, that this is *not* a "square" and I wanna know why?!


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## AMZ (Jan 27, 2020)

Actually, an enjoyable thread! I suspect most of us are hobbyists, mainly because a person employed in this craft, would not have time to peruse the web, and would be too tired to do so, after work hours.

Regardless, my deceased father (2004) was a carpenter. He would make do, or rather use all tools to their fullest. To him, Mark's gauge would have been used as a square, as a marker and a back scratcher.


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## GR8HUNTER (Jun 13, 2016)

I M H O this thread is very stupid :<(((((((((


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> *AESamuel:*
> Not a joke. What defines a "square"? I contend if I can mark perfect 90° lines, its a "square" and just as precise as a 4x costlier Starrett.
> 
> In another thread I was told, firmly, that even though it makes perfect 90° marks, that this is *not* a "square" and I wanna know why?!
> ...


Some things in life are just a mystery. When it is a mystery you can call it what ever you want. You can call it a Whatchamacallit and it works for me.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

I found some other squares in my garage, marks a perfect 90. Much cheaper to find them than to go out and buy expensive fancy tools like the Incra.


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## MikeB_UK (Jul 27, 2015)

> I found some other squares in my garage, marks a perfect 90. Much cheaper to find them than to go out and buy expensive fancy tools like the Incra.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Whooa, a multifunction square, chisel, pry bar.
Cool


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## sansoo22 (May 7, 2019)

The hand plane iron in the eclipse jig is way funnier than it should be.


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## 23tony (Dec 8, 2017)

> ...And why is THIS not a pry bar?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's not?

ah, I see someone already asked.


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## redlee (Apr 11, 2016)

> *AESamuel:*
> Not a joke. What defines a "square"? I contend if I can mark perfect 90° lines, its a "square" and just as precise as a 4x costlier Starrett.
> 
> In another thread I was told, firmly, that even though it makes perfect 90° marks, that this is *not* a "square" and I wanna know why?!
> ...


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Would this be a "square"?









It can even mark a line….


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## Johnny7 (Jun 1, 2015)

Alright, I'll play along.

While I'm sure the OP's tool does an admirable job of scribing lines at 90° to a given edge, that is only one of the uses of a "square".

It's not an adequate substitute for a woodworker's TRY square, since, near as I can tell, it would be tough to check (or "TRY") an edge or face for squareness.


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## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

*Johnny7:*
Not really, you just lay it on the face, top edge even with the short side. If anything projects above the edge, its not square.


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## hotbyte (Apr 3, 2010)

If it was called a square then there would be one less $300 tool Woodpecker could sell to you.


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## woodbutcherbynight (Oct 21, 2011)

I propose we call it a circle…...


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

This is what you use to tighten someone's loose screws.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> This is what you use to tighten someone s loose screws.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thats actually a combination key to my old 1982 Toyota Truck/beer can opener


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## Johnny7 (Jun 1, 2015)

> *Johnny7:*
> Not really, you just lay it on the face, top edge even with the short side. If anything projects above the edge, its not square.
> 
> - Madmark2


I must disagree for two reasons:

1. as far as checking edge to face squareness: it's too fiddly. The "stock" is far too thin to provide adequate registration.
2. even if you can manage to use it to check a face, I believe it would fail miserably at checking inside corners for "squareness"


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## Foghorn (Jan 30, 2020)

I have the Incra and find it very useful for a lot of measuring/marking duties. For me, it's a little flimsy for things that require a real square like my machinist, wood/metal or Starrett combination squares. Some tools just lend themselves better to certain tasks. Maybe it's a "feel" thing. If it's all you have, it'll suffice for most things.


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## MikeB_UK (Jul 27, 2015)

Even more worrying, why is this square a triangle?


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