# What am I doing wrong!?!



## surfnsd (Feb 22, 2016)

In my last few projects Ive encountered this problem and its driving me crazy because I cant seem to figure it out. I'll try to explain it as best I can but Im not even sure I can explain this. I use the standard method of milling my boards by using my jointer, then table saw. After jointing a side I take it to the table saw and rip the board making sure to keep my jointed edge against the fence. I then use a crosscut sled to square one side, then I flip the board keeping the same edge against the fence of the sled and crosscut the other end of the board. I do this mainly because I don't have a decent miter saw. But then this always happens. When I go to cut a tenon I find that the board is not square to the fence when I flip it upside down, and thus the cuts are off. Refer to the pictures, but when I have the jointed edge down the board is square to the fence and I make a nice straight square cut. When I flip the board over to cut the other side all the sudden im about 1/32 off square and the cut isn't parallel. Sorry if this is confusing, but Im trying to explain it the best I can. What am I doing wrong!?

Ive checked everything possible. The blade, fence, and crosscut fence are all square and parallel to each other. I have no clue whats causing this but its obviously something Im doing wrong. Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.

This is with my jointed edge against the sled. As you can see the board is square with my fence.









I then flip the board and I get this gap which obviously isnt square, and then makes the cut off.










This is the result.


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## Woodchuck2010 (Jan 19, 2016)

I'm not positive, but it seems as though your blade isn't parallel to the table.


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## DirtyMike (Dec 6, 2015)

have you used a dial indicator to check all of your tolerances? I am with woodchuck on the blade not being parallel ,


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## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

That looks ike an Incra miter gauge. If your rip fence is out you can wind up with a nice taper. Get rid of the sled and see if that clears up the issue.

M


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## Mahdeew (Jul 24, 2013)

Your saw blade is not at a 90 degree to the board although it might be at a 90 degree to the table's surface. To test this, make a full cut on a scrap 2×4 on the sled, flip it over and raise the blade all the way up a see if the cut you made is at 90 degrees to the blade.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Actually… the crosscut to make the end square…..blade has a very slight tilt to it. like maybe 2 degrees, maybe.

So, one face would be tight against the fence, but, when you flip it over, you will get that gap.

As said above, run the blade all the way up. Take a GOOD square, sit the fat side on the table's top. slide the square over to the blade. DO NOT touch the teeth. Touch only the "plate" of the blade. Have a light shining from behind the square. Look along side the saw plate, see IF there is a gap. Adjust the saw's bevel until the gap is gone. 
Then try the same cuts, using some scrap wood. See IF the cut has improved.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

2 things come to mind, 1) the fence is not parallel to the blade so opposite sides are not parallel. or 2) You have a saw with the alignment problem (4512, etc.)


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## Slemi (Mar 7, 2014)

100% sure the blade isn't the problem. If the blade would not be in line with cut the cut would still be square, just a little wider.

The problem is the fence, You have to adjust the fence to be in line with the miter slot!!! This is the first thing to do, before adjusting blade or miter fence!!!

After You correct the fence, then get the miter fence square to the fence.

Just slide the fence on the miter slot and see how out of line it is.


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## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

If the ripped board has perfectly parallel edges, the only issue I can see would be your crosscut sled. It's not truly 90 degree's to the blade or fence.(assuming the blade and fence are parallel to each other, and the miter slots)

Is the gap always at the rear of the cut once you flip the board? If so….your sled is effed.

Test for you to confirm without a square(squares aren't always square)
Take a piece of scrap your sure has parallel edges and mark a pencil line all the way across one edge, and crosscut with your sled. Take the two pieces and place one on the tablesaw top,pencil edge down. Rotate the other piece so the pencil edge is up. Butt the two cut ends together….is there a gap top or bottom? If so…your sled is effed.


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## surfnsd (Feb 22, 2016)

The saw s a brand new SawStop cabinet saw. I bought a needle gauge today and will check all my specs. I checked the fence last night with the little time I had. I zeroed the needle at the rear of the fence and it measured 0.00 at the far end of the fence from the miter slot. There was about a +0.06 change at the worst at some parts of the fence along the way, but I was told that as long as the rear and far edges measure 0.00 on the gauge then you should be good to go?

Also I made a few cuts with the miter gauge that came with the saw and got the same problem.


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## Slemi (Mar 7, 2014)

Today I took another look at your photos. It looks like the miter fence is not square.
Try this:
1. Check the board has parallel sides (equal width along board).
2. Cut the board "square" with miter gauge.
3. Flip the board along the side (not sure how to explain, just put the opposite side of the board against the miter fence).
4. Cut some piece from the end of the board 1 inch would be good.
5. Measure "front" and "back" of the cutoff and see if they are the same. Here You will see the difference and while there is difference here, the miter fence isn't square to the slots/rip fence.


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

> Also I made a few cuts with the miter gauge that came with the saw and got the same problem.


Sounds like you need to align the table to the blade. The fence can be dead nuts parallel with the miter slot, but if the miter slot isn't parallel to the blade, it will always be off.

Cheers,
Brad


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## bearkatwood (Aug 19, 2015)

The table top is on crooked most likely.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Sooo, have you at least checked the blade to see iF it is a perfect 90 degrees to the top's surface?

Start with that, sometimes, a simple fix is all that is needed…


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## Slemi (Mar 7, 2014)

> ...if the miter slot isn t parallel to the blade, it will always be off.
> 
> Cheers,
> Brad
> - MrUnix


This is right


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## Marlow (Feb 1, 2011)

I wrote a short blurb for Fine Woodworking about this issue a few years back. Using the miter gauge, a square cut depends on the relation of the miter gauge fence to the line of travel of that fence. If your miter gauge bar is straight, and lets say references off the right side of the miter slot, the miter fence needs to be square to the right side of the miter bar. The miter gauge calibration could be off, and you could play with adjusting it to see if you can eliminate the problem. I have also found that some PSA backed abrasive paper stuck to the miter fence helps hold the work against the fence while eliminating the possibility of the work sliding along the fence as you make the cut. You may want to try that as well. An out of square blade could certainly impact the quality of the cut, but all else being equal, it should not impact the squareness of the cut. Your rip fence should not even be part of the discussion, since you are performing a cross-cutting operation.


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## Marlow (Feb 1, 2011)

I should have also mentioned that it is always nice to have a decent double or try square around to check your cross cuts for square. I noticed in your picture that you were using the rip fence to show how out of square the cut was. I prefer a more direct approach to measuring squareness that does not rely on your fence being perfectly parallel to the blade and the fence being in the fully locked position. I would recommend a nice Starrett square, but even this square gets the job done:
Veritas Precision Square ($26)


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## Ger21 (Oct 29, 2009)

When you crosscut your board on your sled, put a square on it, and measure square from both long edge, to make sure the square is actually square.

If your board is not square, then most likely your sled is not perpendicular to the miter slots. I'd say that it's unlikely that the blade is not parallel to the slot, or you'd notice the blade dragging on the board and burning it.


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## surfnsd (Feb 22, 2016)

checked the blade with a dial and at the back of the blade I got 0.0045. I was able to correct it to 0.001 which the manual says is fine so I left it at that. I checked that the blade was a perfect 90 degrees from the table and it was. Checked the miter gauge was a perfect 90 to the blade which it is. So I sent a test piece through and got the same problem. Not as bad as before, but still the same problem.

I measured the off cut and got 17.37mm on the end that hit the blade first and 17.70mm on the rear of the piece. The actual board is not square when held up to my engineer square.

At this point should I just adjust the miter gauge until the stock comes out square? I dont understand how my engineer square shows a perfect 90 to the blade, but the cuts keep coming out off.

And by the way this was with a brand new woodworker II blade that I picked up yesterday.


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## Marlow (Feb 1, 2011)

Adjust your miter gauge until you get a square cut, then report back.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

If everything is set up square, but the cut isn't square, then the board is moving during the cut. From the description, it sounds like the board is moving toward the blade during the cut.


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## Marlow (Feb 1, 2011)

I should add: I understand that you are getting 90 degrees between blade and miter fence, but believe it or not, that really does not matter. Miter gauge fence has to be 90 degrees to line of travel of the gauge.


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## Marlow (Feb 1, 2011)

And to Ricks point: that is why I suggested you attach some PSA backed abrasive to the fence of the miter gauge to stop that from happening (if it is happening).


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## surfnsd (Feb 22, 2016)

I'll try that next. This all started because I was cutting tennons for a bedside table and noticed that the cuts weren't parallel to each other on each side of the board causing slanted gaps in the joints.

If I can just adjust the miter sled until the board is 90 then I'll just do that. But Im having a hard time wrapping my mind around why if my blade is parallel to the slot and table why this is still happening.

Off to adjust the sled.


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## StumpyNubs (Sep 25, 2010)

When you said you set your blade to .001, do you mean parallel to the miter slot? Marlow is stressing that the miter fence must be square to the line of travel of the miter gauge. If your blade is parallel to the miter slot, then when you square the miter fence to the blade you are also squaring it to the line of travel, aren't you?

Are you absolutely certain you aren't allowing the work piece to move even a little bit as you make the crosscut? The photo seems to show that the end is not only out of square, it is slightly curved. At least that's how it looks to me. What is the "Sled" you are talking about adjusting?


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## surfnsd (Feb 22, 2016)

Yes I got the blade .001 parallel to the miter slot with a needle gauge. How would I square it to the line of travel?


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## surfnsd (Feb 22, 2016)

its an incra miter gauge


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## surfnsd (Feb 22, 2016)

and yes, Im positive the wood isnt moving. Ive been doing some cuts with clamps holding the board against the fence, as well as trying a stop block on one end and checking before and after the cut to make sure theyre still butted up against each other


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

i used an engineers square and still had to make adjustments to get my incra 90 deg to the blade.


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## StumpyNubs (Sep 25, 2010)

Surf- The miter slot IS the line of travel. So that doesn't appear to be the issue.


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## bbasiaga (Dec 8, 2012)

I'm thinking here, so let me ask some potentially dumb questions.

Are you planing the board after jointing and ripping? I read above that you face joint, edge joint, rip. Didn't mention plane.  When you flip the board over to the not-planed/not-jointed surface, it could be sitting funny on the table and contributing to the problem. So I wanted to check and see if planing the other face is in your workflow.

-Brian


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

You can't be positive about everything being square/parallel *and *the board not moving because one of those things are causing your problem. I haven't read every reply but back up to what Brad (MrUnix) said-your miter slots must be parallel to the blade otherwise it will cause the exact problem you are having. Same thing Marlow is telling you. I know you said they are parallel and you've said the board isn't moving and you've said the ripped sides are parallel but one of those things can't be true.


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## Iguana (Jun 22, 2011)

Also - is the jointed edge coming off the jointer straight? I.e. is the jointer in need of a tune-up? Easy way to check is to take two jointed edges and hold them back to back. If you see any gaps, adjust the jointer.


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## bbasiaga (Dec 8, 2012)

Reviewing the pictures again, it looks to me like the ripped edge of the board isn't parallel to the jointed edge. I know you said you start with the jointed edge against the miter gauge, then when you flip the board you see the gap along the fence. You could check this by jointing a board, then ripping a piece off. Measure the kept piece (not the offcut). Is it the same width at both ends? It is easy to let the board wander slightly when ripping.

The other thing you could try is always cutting your tenon with the jointed edge against the miter gauge. This would require using the other miter slot to do the other cross cut for the piece. If both cuts line up the way you want to, its another indication that the other side of the board isn't parallel to the jointed side.

I'm just thinking that if you have proven the fence is parallel to the miter slot, the blade is parallel to both miter slots (and therefore the fence), and the miter gauge is parallel to the blade (therefore the miter slot and the fence as well), then the variable that is left is the geometry of the wood.

Another dumb question: you are sure your cross cut sled cuts square, and that your square is square? I am always afraid my squares aren't square.

-Brian


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

You might want to try the 5 cuts method to see if your miter gauge and/or fence is really square to the blade. William Ng has a great you tube video on using this method to ensure the fence of a crosscut sled is square. You should be able to use it to verify your miter gauge or fence as well. Basically after you make the 5th cut, if the width of the strip is not about the same at both ends, it's not square. I would test both fence and miter gauge. Here is a link to the video.






BTW, a cross cut sled like he shows in this video is the best way to guarantee perfect 90° cuts. A CC sled is my most used accessory on my table saw and I think it actually makes it safer to use too, especially on shorter boards.

One other thought is to make sure your riving knife is not causing deflection as you rip the board to width. Make sure it is lined up and square to the blade and that it is not wider than your blade. You could test by carefully ripping a board with the knife removed and see if that helps. You might also put the ripped edge on a flat surface and see if you can see light through gaps underneath it to make sure it's flat.


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## GregD (Oct 24, 2009)

In principle the 2 things that have to be perfect for this cut to come out perfect are:
1. When the work is ripped to width the rips must be perfectly parallel.
2. The miter gauge fence must be perfectly perpendicular to the miter bar (the edge that is hard against the miter slot).

The blade does not, in principle, need to be precisely parallel to the miter slot.

But when you perform the cross cut the work must absolutely positively not slide along the miter gauge fence, and you need to keep the same edge of the miter bar firmly against the side of the miter slot. These sound like easy things to do, but I found that I had to practice a fair bit before I could get them right. When I need precision I like to use a cross cut sled and firmly clamp the work to the sled. Then when I am performing the cut all my attention is focused on sliding the sled past the blade in a consistent way. Using a sled with clamps gives me more consistent results with less effort. When I do use a miter gauge and need precision I try to use a stop; that is almost as good as a clamp if it is sturdy and I keep the work pressed firmly against it.

I have also found that with more experience I simply don't seem to have the problems that I used to. I bet if you keep working at this you are eventually going to come up with some process that will work well for you.


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