# Company Possibly taking images without Permission



## Darrell (Jul 29, 2008)

I just wanted to post a quick heads up to fellow Lumberjock members. I just discovered a furniture making business on the web that appears to have not only stolen an image of my work but also several images from postings here at lumberjocks - They images and designs are offered for sale in their portfolio.

I personally feel it is a great compliment when someone thinks enough of one of my designs to copy it for personal use ( no money involved) But if it is a commercial venture that is NOT OK.

here is the link to the offending site…
http://thefurniturewerks.com/portfolio.html


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## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

This problem has been exposed many times before. 
I think that the conclusion was that there is nothing we can do about it.
I would be pissed if someone stole my design to make money with it and without giving a percentage but I do not have to post my designs and if I do post them, I know the risk I take.
Everything posted on the Internet is immediately, that you agree with it or not ,made public.
If you do not like that, do not post your projects.


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## Hacksaw (Feb 26, 2009)

Bert , while I agree that we do not have to post our designs outright theft of a design is just that, theft and can be prosecuted. The images are protected by copyright law the second the photos are taken and DMCA when posted to the internet. Copying someone's design and claiming it is your own ( which is what they are doing because they are using the original images not photos of the version they built is illegal and even in the furniture business can be enforced. IKEA has been sued and Room & Board has also both lost . Darrell, thanks for the heads up.


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## Darrell (Jul 29, 2008)

Bert - there is a lot of misconception out there. I have consulted with an attorney and especially when they have stolen not only my design but my photo - I can go after them legally. 
I make a living from this - like I have said, I feel it a great compliment when someone copies my work for personal use (again no money involved) - But I will not allow another to make a profit from my property which I have spent my entire adult life working towards.


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## Nollie (Oct 9, 2010)

They are so arrogant to actually use your photo on their website. I think you must hit hard Darrel!!


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## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

Darell, I just looked at your webpage, I love your work.
I want to keep the Internet as free as possible, free from cops and regulations.
The government , all governments, do everything they can to change that, especially our government .
This freedom, like every freedom, has a price. The price you pay is one of them.
You are free to post or to not post. 
You post , you take a risk.
This certainly does not mean that I do not understand your position or that I do not care.I do care. 
You are an artist and you own your designs but again you take the risk by posting the pictures of your work. 
No one force you to do it.


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## Darrell (Jul 29, 2008)

For some clarification see this article by Pop Wood

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/interviews/imitation-illegal


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## fisherdoug09 (Jan 29, 2011)

Very tacky, one should not have to water mark there pics here on LJ, but seems like some folks have no class.


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## LeChuck (Jan 6, 2010)

Yeah, people steal stuff on the internet. You should imagine that problem from the point of view of a photographer, since the image *is* the product. At least they can't resell the piece of furniture that *you* made…


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## JoeyG (Mar 19, 2011)

This is the reason I started adding my logo as a watermark on my angelfish. I haven't found a need with my woodworking, but that is probably only because I don't really search other woodworking sites but this one.


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## nicholasrhall (Aug 19, 2012)

That's a low down rotten thing to do. A letter from an attorney will probably get the photo down quickly, but it probably won't stop them from building one of their own and photographing it.


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## ssnvet (Jan 10, 2012)

Their from NJ….. go figure :^o


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## wseand (Jan 27, 2010)

I'm stealing all your designs. You make some incredible furniture.

I see the dilemma here, you don't want someone to profit off your designs but you want to post your work online.

I don't make anything that someone would want to steal so it's not personal to me. I also don't prosper off anyone one design because it is all custom, one off. I am sure at some point my design has been stolen from someone else's pic and i just think I came up with it all on my own..

If I was in a position like yours Darrell I would bend someone over one of your tables and have Bubba make them his girlfriend.

Take pics with your phone to post on LJ, problem solved.


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## casual1carpenter (Aug 16, 2011)

Darrell, I'm not sure how the theft of your artistic design would play out but I assume your attorney has that covered. I wonder if your post about this issue had the right key words if would not show up on search engines when ever thefurniturewerks page shows up in searches. I would not hire a builder contractor who steals photos and misrepresents their accomplishments.

I did not notice your design but I did see a distinctive curly maple jewelry cabinet from here, then I quit looking. I hate to say it but I do wonder if the admin might need consider using a watermarking app for our viewing pleasure.


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## knotscott (Feb 27, 2009)

I'm offended….none of my designs or pics were infringed upon! ;-)

Seriously Darrell - It's one thing to mimic a design, but it's quite another to actually use your photos in their gallery and imply it's their own….that intuitively seems like it should be illegal.

p.s. You do some really incredible work!


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## ColonelTravis (Mar 19, 2013)

Darrell, you were right to talk to an attorney. Contact that jerk site and tell them to take down that stuff, and contact LJ. I don't know how your business is set up, whether you have copyrights to your work, but this is in the *TOS of the LJ site*:

22. *COPYRIGHTS*
We respect the intellectual property of others, and we ask our users to do the same. If you believe that your work has been copied in a way that constitutes copyright infringement, or your intellectual property rights have been otherwise violated, please send us the following information:

1. an electronic or physical signature of the person authorized to act on behalf of the owner of the copyright or other intellectual property interest;
2. a description of the copyrighted work or other intellectual property that you claim has been infringed;
3. a description of where the material that you claim is infringing is located on the site;
4. your address, telephone number, and email address;
5. a statement by you that you have a good faith belief that the disputed use is not authorized by the copyright owner, its agent, or the law;
6. a statement by you, made under penalty of perjury, that the above information in your Notice is accurate and that you are the copyright or intellectual property owner or authorized to act on the copyright or intellectual property owner's behalf.


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## JGM0658 (Aug 16, 2011)

I am surprised by the answers. Darrell is an outstanding furniture maker in the Greene & Greene style and has two books out on how to make this style of furniture. Not only this, he is a really nice guy, he has helped me with a few questions in the past without even knowing who I am.

He definitively has grounds for a law suit, not only does he make his living at this, but the projects posted are his personal designs, not copies from a Greene & Greene furniture.

Darrell I hope you go after these guys and force them to remove your images. Best of luck.


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## longgone (May 5, 2009)

The fact that someone would steal someone else's photos and designs just shows that they are not capable enough or proud enough of their own work to use their own photos. Do they plan to identically create one of those stolen pieces if a customer wants to place an order?
It is good that you are talking to a lawyer and hopefully it will do some good


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

Id also go right ahead and put THEFURNITUREWERKS.COM in the heading of this thread. Let google do its thing and hit em in the pocketbook. Let their clients see their shady marketing when searching for reviews of the company. Im very sure LJ's will be in the first page of a google search with the amount of traffic that flows through here.


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## Airframer (Jan 19, 2013)

Yep, if you look in the "Tables" group on the page Darrell linked.. second from the right on the bottom of that group you will see this very table and exact picture..


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## wseand (Jan 27, 2010)

They are on Angie's List. Just Saying..


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## Darrell (Jul 29, 2008)

At the bottom of their homepage is a link to Angies list - I gave them a not so good review


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## Darrell (Jul 29, 2008)

Thanks Colonel - good advice!


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## Darrell (Jul 29, 2008)

Have a look at the results from this google image search.
https://lh3.ggpht.com/0oqq1lFwBeIXACL2Hx9SAuUwiCMqJICeEVspigbjFmShtja174P4MaBuWnvmRGtHLUHJ=s128
A very nice bed design posted here on lumberjocks by a fellow member….


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## barringerfurniture (Sep 17, 2013)

Well, I guess they didn't see fit to steal any of my stuff. I'm not offended.

I advertise on Craigslist. One time, after a Google search, I found my complete Craigslist ad including all photos and text and website link, directly copied and pasted to isell.com. I had never even heard of isell.com until then.

Not sure what somebody was trying to achieve but I had the ad removed after contacting admin there.

I'm not the most knowledgeable regarding copyright laws but I know that I can at least add a copyright watermark to my photos very easily with my free image editing software. Might not be official but may at least provide a deterrent - just a thought for others as well.


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## levan (Mar 30, 2010)

Might want to check out their cushioned rocking chairs. You have to wonder if they have built anything. 
http://lumberjocks.com/assets/pictures/projects/389449-438x.jpg?1366592847


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## Darrell (Jul 29, 2008)

Levan - that makes at least three images that were stolen here…..if you have posted an image here and wonder if its been used - right click on the image and select …google search


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## Gene01 (Jan 5, 2009)

I'm not very original. Designing is not my strong suit. Other than some wild boxes, most everything I've built has been from plans. I will admit to gaining inspiration from some of the fine craftsmen and women who post on this site. I'd have to be a far better woodworker to actually steal and build from someone's posted work.
That being said, stealing and using images to promote or sell is just downright dirty. I'll bet, the thief can't come close to actually reproducing Darrell's work, though. And that makes it worse. Someone could associate a shoddy knock off with another's work they saw. Ruining a reputation is possible.


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## darthford (Feb 17, 2013)

Yeah that's low (aims index and pinky finger, flings a jinx at them)


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## Darrell (Jul 29, 2008)

yet another image stolen from lumberjocks….

https://www.google.com/search?tbs=sbi:AMhZZiusmb5Hf-h0I61u52H3k4YBTinXvLcBVfJrhAT2Na_1oxEU_1YRlf37Nf9-rR4EFi33BuzJteohppwWoGzPEbyV4mU9Q5F9I0EDGz6rsbPb51xwjuoM_1cswpibYn7Sq_1BYgJA72sASNp2


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## JJohnston (May 22, 2009)

I don't seem to have that "Google search" functionality for pictures. No one would bother stealing my stuff, though.


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## Pono (Mar 10, 2012)

often imatated never duplicated thats what i say i get alot of copy cats also.

As far as posting other peoples pictures as theyre own no way.Thats full of s^&%% nail them any way you can


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## Darrell (Jul 29, 2008)

Oops the above link doesn't seem to work. 
I am using google chrome for these searches - that may make a difference.

the link i tried to give above was for the image here…
http://lumberjocks.com/projects/86786


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## levan (Mar 30, 2010)

Darrrell I hope you get some justice.


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## DocSavage45 (Aug 14, 2010)

Just a thought,

Possibly putting your own copywright on your pictures before posting as Marc De Cou does might prevent some direct theft? maybe not. Saying I can do this for you is fraud.

A lesson for professional furniture makers.

Thanks for the Update.


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## casual1carpenter (Aug 16, 2011)

JJohnston try http://images.google.com/imghp?hl=en you click and drag a picture there


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## Darrell (Jul 29, 2008)

Doc - I will be making some changes for future protection.


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## barringerfurniture (Sep 17, 2013)

Thank you for the heads up Darrell. I'd be pretty angry! Best of luck.


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Levan, what kind of "justice" are you thinking? It is only a picture. I have seen very few "original" designs on this site. If you think your design is original then you need to look at more images. More than likely what you think is original has been built before.


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## Darrell (Jul 29, 2008)

DKV - its only an image but that image is my property and my design. The table in question is without a doubt my design - I am sorry if you think otherwise. This is how I make a living and I have invested all my adult life in this. I cannot be dismissed so simply. 
I can easily forgive someone who uses one of my details and I have a few that are unique to me. I cannot however forgive something so blatant as taking my design as well as my photo.


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Darrell, your photo is protected but not much else.

http://blog.custommade.com/for-makers/can-you-legally-make-a-copy-of-this-piece-of-furniture-or-home-decor-item-for-me/

BTW, your furniture is beautiful. Please do not get me wrong. I like your stuff…Take the theft of your photo as a compliment.


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## shampeon (Jun 3, 2012)

It's a big problem. Look at Photo Stealers, for example:
http://stopstealingphotos.tumblr.com/

There are lots of unsavory people out there willing to pass off others work as their own, and apparently think posting photos to the internet means you give up all your rights.

If I were a pro, I'd look into digital watermarking my portfolio images, which can't be edited away like a typical corner watermark.


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## Darrell (Jul 29, 2008)

DKV-custom made is wrong on this issue. My attorney was emphatic about this …
I had several back and forths ( just yesterday) on facebook with the owner of custom made on this very issue.

read this one….

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/interviews/imitation-illegal

If you were to offer a copy of the Eames lounge chair for sale - it would not have a good ending.


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## shampeon (Jun 3, 2012)

DKV: Using his copyrighted photos as examples of their work is sufficient to get them in legal hot water. But it's true that protecting the design of the furniture is very difficult unless the design is extremely distinctive or somehow incorporates another one of Darrell's designs. For example, if the cutout design here is unique to Darrell's furniture:








that would be a good starting place to pursue legal action.

And I would never take it as a compliment that somebody is stealing my photos to fool other people. No way.


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## Kelby (Oct 19, 2011)

I doubt the guy has the skills actually to build one of Darrell's tables; if he had those kind of chops and had actually built that quality of work, he probably would have just posted pictures of his own projects instead of Darrell's. So whether Darrell could sue him for making knock-offs of Darrell's tables is, I suspect, purely a hypothetical question.

On the other hand, the guy has clearly copied other people's images and posted them on his website as his own work. Unless there's more to the story, that sounds like a pretty egregious copyright violation. Statutory damages for copyright violations are a minimum of $750 per violation, and a maximum of $150,000 per violation if the violation was willful. A prevailing plaintiff may also be able to recover attorneys fees.

So how many pictures did this guy copy? We know it was multiple. I did a Google image search on a couple of them, and every single piece of furniture I searched for turned out to be stolen from someone else's website. If the guy only stole 3 images, that's statutory damages of somewhere between $2250 ($750×3) for an inadvertent violation and as much as $450,000 if it was willful. (It's hard to accidentally post someone else's picture on your website, so willful may not be difficult to prove.) If it turns out that all of these images were stolen, and if the real owners of these photos banded together, now we're talking about as much as $150,000 per photo multiplied by a couple dozen photos.

If the original owners of all of these works banded together, they could very well put this guy out of business pretty quickly.


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

I am just curious if they can even reproduce the piece. If they are so shady the copy others photographs as their own I don't believe they have the ability to make the piece or probably any of them.


On the other hand if they are indeed a good company, and they are smart, when they get an order for a piece of yours they would contact you to make it. And you would have gotten free advertising.


But, I am more inclined to believe that an order for any of those pieces would probably end being made in Thailand or Viet Nam and you would not benefit in any way.


Hit them hard legally to wake them up to their less than professional tactics!


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## wseand (Jan 27, 2010)

Movies, music, vehicles, furniture can you really be original anymore. 
It's so much easier to use someone else's ideas tweak it a little and then call it your own.. 
It's not the fact that you use someone else's idea but that, that person isn't compensated or recognized for it.

It's just outright lying to and misleading your clientele and future clients about your or your companies abilities and accomplishments.

The company needs to be called out on it and show their clientele that they are frauds.


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## DocSavage45 (Aug 14, 2010)

Best wishes on the outcome.

I really have not given this much thought. Marc has always had a copyright statement on all his postings. I'm thinking if and when I have an original piece I will also do the same, Otherwise I think credit is given where it is due?

How many Krenov knockoffs are out there? And Maloof?

going to go and do some woodworking in the shop.

Later


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## Darrell (Jul 29, 2008)

Shanpeon - Actually the cut out in that bed is an original G&G detail. It is in the public domain. I made that fact clear in my Popular Woodworking article on the Thorsen Bed.

I gave that bed to the Thorsen House - where it now resides.


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## shampeon (Jun 3, 2012)

Darrell: Got it. That is an example, though, of one of the ways you CAN add a trade dress to your designs to protect them: a specific design detail that is owned by you and added to your furniture.

DocSavage45: All your photos and plans and sketches are implicitly copyrighted. Adding copyright notices is a reminder, but even if you never add a copyright notice it's still yours and nobody has a license to do anything with it without your permission. The design of the piece, though, is a more complicated area.


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## Planeman40 (Nov 3, 2010)

Been down this copyright road before. Here is what I can tell you. Yes, you have a copyright. Now you must defend it. To do this you must hire a lawyer. Your options are: (1) Have your lawyer write a "cease and desist" letter to the offender with a threat to sue. This costs a little money. (2) If no action, have your lawyer sue. this costs big bucks! (3) Find a lawyer that will take your suit on spec. He gets half if he wins, no cost to you but your time (a lot of it) if he loses. Lawyers don't take cases like this unless they think you have a solid case, there is enough money involved to make the gamble worth it to him, and the offender has the wherewithal to pay if the case is won.

Planeman


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## Texcaster (Oct 26, 2013)

It takes a very thick hide to steal a photo and call it your own. Those people will always be with us. May they spend all their days in company of lawyers.

Just out of trade school in the 70's I worked with a very prominent Los Angles designer craftsman. Things I built or had a hand in are in his portfolio today. I asked him one day if he was concerned someone like me, trained in his style, would go on to copy his work. His answer was very instructive….. " This stuff is so hard to sell if you can sell it I'll come work for you. Besides, it's not like I'm only going to have one or two good ideas in my life."..... He was always thinking about the next thing. That's still how I work today.


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## Jon3 (Feb 28, 2007)

They took the whole gallery down….


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

I understand the frustration , trust me I do .

As many know we have produced many DVD's . Talk about frustrating ! When you see your work being sold as a down load… They get the DVD and then sell you the right to down load it. We get nothing. We have for some time refused to sell outside the US , unless we know the party.

Numerous folks have ceased to produce DVD's because the piracy issue is so bad.

Basically , the pirates are out of the country, so legal pursuit is futile .

I also agree that getting it all over the internet and naming names is an excellent approach. Get it in enough places and everytime they are searched it come up .. Wonder who made the Maloof rockers they are showing

In the case of copying a design.. I agree its wrong, but its done every day, we reproduce antiques all the time,

Folks bring me a picture and say "can you make me one of these ", if I can I do .

It has been my understanding, that trying to defend a design of something other than mechanical function, is very difficult and cost more than one could possibly recover .. I agree its wrong, but stopping it , is another matter.


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## theoldfart (Sep 9, 2011)

Darrell, I think you got their attention! Too bad you have to waste your time protecting your work in stead of making it.


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## natenaaron (Jun 24, 2013)

It is sad that this happens. I am surprised, though, that some feel this is even remotely acceptable in the name of keeping the net a free place. Thats messed up.


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## bondogaposis (Dec 18, 2011)

Go after them with all you got, make them pay and pay big. You have every right to do so.


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## Mahdeew (Jul 24, 2013)

Looks like either they have closed their website or enough clicks has crashed it.


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## barringerfurniture (Sep 17, 2013)

"404 page not found" Beautiful.


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## Jerbone (Feb 18, 2013)

We'll looks like their page is currently having some issues. The posting your pic has to be the biggest f u they could do.


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## wseand (Jan 27, 2010)

I sent them three emails asking them why they were using others pics. I am sure others have done the same, hopefully they are running scared. Whole site is down..


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## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)

..

A similar situation happened to me on eBay … as some may be aware, I sell framed tiles. I used to sell my tiles unframed as well, but a goof on eBay ended that.
I auctioned one of my Clearing tiles unframed and a goof on eBay bought one of my handmade tiles. 
He made a mold from the tile I sold him and turned right around and began making tiles from the mold of my work and began selling them as original works from himself.
I confronted him and he at first denied it saying prove it, f-off and stuff. He finally admitted to it told me to get over it calling it capitalism.
I figured out who he was… remember he bought the original tile from me and I had records from the sale.
I began by contacting eBay.
Then I sent emails to his city's police, sheriff, city counsel, better business bureau and local art community.
I cc'd him and eBay on all the emails.
I then sent him a email with a CEASE AND DESIST legal letter attached and copied all of the local departments and eBay that I had emailed.
Well it worked.
He pulled the tiles from eBay and asked me to call off the dogs.
.
.
.


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## SCOTSMAN (Aug 1, 2008)

It is rediculously bad mannered, but copying others work is what makes industry turn and always has done.The Chinese are notorious for copying anything that will make them a profit, and are bare facedly unashamed when found out .It seems as if they wonder what all the fuss is about.I can see the arguments regarding you post, therefore you open your work up to having it copied.However when they sell the designs for profit as though it were theres to do so ,that flies in the face of international law.The downright nerve of some people. sorry but that's all I have to offer. Alistair


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## Darrell (Jul 29, 2008)

Thats good to hear about your favorable outcome with your ebay experience.


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## Darrell (Jul 29, 2008)

I left for a couple of hours and new developments! The webiste may be gone but not forgotten - I have lots of screen shots!


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## basswood (Dec 18, 2013)

I've had photos of my work appear on other websites and passed off as the work of my competition. I basically did what this thread has done. I posted about the fraud on a couple of popular forums and "tagged" name of the offending business and tagged "fraud", etc. in my posts on the subject.

Enough members of the forum did the same thing and we were able to get the posts about the business ripping off images and passing it off as their work to show up in Google searches for that rogue business as the top hits, above the actual website of their business.

This motivated them to remove the images without having to bother with a lawyer, etc.


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## Darrell (Jul 29, 2008)

For those joining this thread late here is the archive of the site in question….
https://web.archive.org/web/20131209054831/http://thefurniturewerks.com/portfolio.html


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## Texcaster (Oct 26, 2013)

I just realized the last sentence in my post could be taken to mean I work in my mentor's style. Not the case.


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## vigneron (Jan 19, 2012)

Darrell, I am glad to here you have an attorney to help you. Let me wish you good luck to prosecute the thief. I also hope that this sad experience won't deter you from publishing your remarkable work. Shared knowledge from master to student is one of the most exciting part of our craft. Again, I personally wish you all the best.


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## OhValleyWoodandWool (Nov 9, 2009)

The site seems to be down at the moment…. A very good thing.

We all have used other peoples designs as a starting point for our own work, that's the nature of art…all art. The problem comes when a person, or even worse a company, duplicates the design without the creativity or intellectual honesty to make changes to make the piece their own.

Sam Maloof taught many people how to make his signature pieces, joinery, tables, chairs, etcetera. and had no problem with his students them making money from his designs because:
1) anyone good enough to duplicate that joinery is good enough to change the overall design enough to make the piece a product of their own work.
2) there is more than enough work out there in this whole wide world for everyone who is good enough and honest enough to make a living. 
And finally 
3) no matter how good or exact a copy of a Moloof style rocker one makes it is not and never can be a Maloof rocker.

But not only to duplicate the design but to outright steal the pictures posted here…. Despicable!

My guess in the guy couldn't edge glue two boards together properly much less build a complex, well designed piece of furniture


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## wseand (Jan 27, 2010)

The email address was [email protected]

There is another site called www.Furniturewerks.com. Which is probably where they came up with the name in the first place. Can't even come up with an original site name.

They will pop up again under another site name. 
keep up the diligence with sites like this.


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## Darrell (Jul 29, 2008)

Basswood - very creative and good idea!


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## OhValleyWoodandWool (Nov 9, 2009)

Darrell,

Thanks for the archive shot. I joined the thread after the site was down,

Looks like portfolio padding to me. I seem to recognize some of the other photos from other sites, mostly the good pieces/


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## Darrell (Jul 29, 2008)

I don't want anyone getting the wrong idea - I truly love to see woodworkers reproducing my work when it does not involve the exchange of money. That is when they are making it for themselves or friend or family.

As a business man - I leave something to be desired. I have never made big piles of money. In fact I could never have afforded to do this work, if I did not have a wife who makes more money and has health insurance. I am doing a bit better income wise these days, but for years that wasn't so.

I had one local woodworker take an idea of mine (many years ago) and go further than I ever did with it. I have also had a major manufacturer take a detail of mine and probably profit from it much more than I ever have. I don't don't worry myself about things like this though - often its hard to really tell where they really got the idea.

However when someone takes an entire piece that is my design (changing some small percentage doesn't cut it) I have a problem that. Its been a long haul to get where I am today and it seems rather foul when others claim property that I have worked so hard for.

I have no knowledge of Sam Maloof allowing others to make a profit from building replicas of his designs - but I do have knowledge of Sam calling a person who was teaching a class on building one of Sam's pieces - Sam was not happy to say the least. This says a lot - anyone who had the privilege of meeting Sam knows what a peaceful wonderful human being he was.


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## Texcaster (Oct 26, 2013)

Amen Darrell, at the end of the day, when everybody is home and hosed, if those creeps can't steal something for profit… they got nothing.


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## wseand (Jan 27, 2010)

I certainly didn't take it any other way Darrell.


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## mojapitt (Dec 31, 2011)

I tried to go to the link you posted. It keeps giving me a server error. So maybe they shut it down. Borrowing ideas is part of the business. Once they use your photos, then they are claiming your design and that is robbery. I hope you can protect your rights.


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## mojapitt (Dec 31, 2011)

Looking at your projects and your website. Very impressive work. It is well worth protecting. I hope you kick the crap out of them.


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## OhValleyWoodandWool (Nov 9, 2009)

I certainly didn't intend to give the impression that I think Darrell doesn't have the right to be pissed or that he doesn't have the right to protect his designs. He most definetly has the right to both. But there seems to be a thin line between inspiration and plagiarism.

I have never worked from any plans other than my own. Well… with the exception of my 2nd project a rocking horse for my daughter. But in each and every piece that I have made you could trace major design concepts back to somebody before. If I tried to follow plans I wouldn't be able to. Minor design changes would start to creep in immediately. After not too long I'm sure there would be at least one or two major design changes but you would still be able to trace the overall form back to the original. I personally struggle with that line and where it lies.

What the company in question did is, without doubt, despicable. Even if, as I assume, it was *"only"* portfolio padding.


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## basswood (Dec 18, 2013)

If any of your photos are also in books or magazines, keep in mind that having the publisher go after them is far more effective than your efforts.

I had Taunton Press (FHB, FWW), go after a website that was using images without permission. That sure got results quickly.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

It's probably been said already:

First approach the owner of the site and ask your images
be removed. If they don't agree and comply, approach
their hosting company and request some assistance
in the matter.


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## JAAune (Jan 22, 2012)

Actually, that site had the flavor of a scam rather than a simple attempt to pad the portfolio.

For starters, it's only a three year old site according to the Who Is report even though they claim to have been in operation since 1998. Secondly, adding "the" to furniturewerks.com is the sort of thing a scammer would do to trick people into doing business with a shady outfit. Unwary folks would associate the fake site with the real one.

There's definitely a chance that the people behind that site were making an attempt to swindle a few people with some high dollar down payments then vanish.

If the website were legit, I doubt they'd have shut down the entire site so quickly. They'd have just removed the offending pictures.


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## JayT (May 6, 2012)

That website was just the production wing of Ted's Woodworking plans site. 

Sorry, couldn't resist. There is no place on the Internet or othewise for people who do that kind of crap-they are leeches on society. Unfortunately they reproduce too fast to eradicate.

I feel for you Darrell and hope there is a bigger consequence for those people than just shutting down a website as soon as they were found out and made public.


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## Darrell (Jul 29, 2008)

Thanks everyone ! Some great people here! Thanks for your understanding!

Someone posted to a friends facebook page something that really hit home with me. It describes why this bothers me as it does. 
..... anyone who has spent a lifetime doing creative work realizes it did not begin with success. Before that there was a lot of frustration and failure - years of it. Each time that I create something that makes me feel good - something that turned out right ….I feel truly blessed because I know that also represents a lot of failures. 
These days, some new design come to me easy - but not always-sometime I still feel as though I am hitting my head against the wall and the design process is fraught with frustration. 
With all this, I have an emotional connection to my designs. The biggest reward for me is recognition of a job well done - as my Dad would have said "you have made an honest effort and done well". This is more important in many ways than the money (don't' get me wrong making money - has its rewards too)
When someone knowingly steals my design and falsely claims it as their own - I have a deep emotional response.


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## Nicky (Mar 13, 2007)

Darrell, your work and books are truly inspiring.

The world will always have people who want a shortcut to success.

At the end of today you will keep your integrity while the website will end its day with "404 Page Not found"

Keep up the good work.


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## Darrell (Jul 29, 2008)

Thanks Nicky !

If webpages had life their's just got the death sentence and their tombstone reads…. "404 Page Not found"


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Nice work. I hate thieves.


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## Darrell (Jul 29, 2008)

For future reference - here is a facebook page that was just created.

https://www.facebook.com/dontbuyhere

Hopefully it can help shine a spotlight on this sort of thing in the future. 
If you have projects posted anywhere on the web you may want to run a google image search on your images. 
Many of the photos from the site in question here were taken from woodworking forums.

It was great that this site came down rather quickly. If this happens to you - we can do this again!


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

Let's hope the offenders don't copyright your work as their own. That would be the final straw.


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## Mahdeew (Jul 24, 2013)

It looks like those picture have been stolen from google image site. I have seen most of them there.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

It is crappy that people do that - - copying is a tricky thing though - -

How many people have made entire businesses making Maloof Rocking chairs… for a tidy profit?
Or sell plans and DVD's for the same?

Lots of folks duplicating Stickley or Greene and Greene or Frank Lloyd Wright furniture pieces from his different houses. Often it is borrowing design elements - but I see a lot of items that are advertised to be replicas of items in those houses. 
The maker isn't trying to be credited with the design - but some have said that making copies for a profit is unethical…. If so there are a LOT of unethical folks out there (and on here).

Many folks make a living making reproductions of the 18th century classic pieces - in places like Colonial Williamsburg.

How much of what is out there for sale is truly an original design of the woodworker - vs. a customer askes you to build a specific piece that they have seen?

Just taking pics off this site of others work and offering plans for sale I think is wrong as is claiming that work as your own - but the idea that building and selling a piece that is of someone elses design - seems are VERY VERY common occurence, with a lot of guilty parties.


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## Oldsaxon (Jul 17, 2013)

DrDirt, I see your point but selling a reproduction, and calling it that and giving credit to the craftsmen that made it, even if vaguely mentioning the style or period, is quite different than putting up a picture of one of your pieces and calling it thiers.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Agree 100% Saxon - - - in the original post by Darrell though he had the closing line 
----
I personally feel it is a great compliment when someone thinks enough of one of my designs to copy it for personal use ( no money involved) *But if it is a commercial venture that is NOT OK*._

I am not so sure that if someone made his Blacker rocker and sold it… that that is any different than selling a Maloof Rocker, if credit is given.

I wouldn't do that - but it seems common.


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## Darrell (Jul 29, 2008)

I think if we were to follow some simple guidelines the subject of copying could be dealt with rationally.
First- (again) if it is for personal use and no money is changing hands - I see it as a compliment to me. This my personal view and I do not speak for other furniture designers - its always best to ask first.
I am not going to bother with someone using a detail (design element) that is mine. Not all the details I use are G&G originals - some originated with me, but If we argued over the specific details - we will all be bogged down in it. Besides- my details are all over the web and are often mistaken for details original to G&G. 
My rule of thumb for making reproductions for sale is - is it in the public domain. If it is, this should mean that no one is earning a living from the design and you are not stealing someone's livelihood. All of G&G is in the public domain. I believe (may be wrong) that at least some of FLW stuff is NOT in the public domain and I would stay away from it. I would not think that Sam Maloof's designs are in the public domain either - if it were me, I would not reproduce one of Sam's pieces.
On a couple of occasions I have been asked to make one of Tom Stangeland's designs - I answered " no " and to contact Tom if you want his work. Tom would do the same if asked to build one of my pieces. On the other hand I had someone that wanted a Blacker Living Room Armchair once. This is an original G&G design but Tom Stangeland is well known for making a version of this piece. Since Tom is a friend of mine - I approached him on this and his reply was (paraphrased) - "that design is in the public domain - I have not claim on it - you are free to make it"
So basically - my advice would be to research before you reproduce something for profit. If it is 100 years old my guess would be that it is already in the public domain. If the designer of the piece is still alive - it is definitely off limits!


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## Darrell (Jul 29, 2008)

While I made some serious changes to the Blacker Rocker - and my version is fairly well known - the basic design is not mine and I have no claim to it.


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## Darrell (Jul 29, 2008)

While I made some serious changes to the Blacker Rocker - and my version is fairly well known - the basic design is not mine and I have no claim to it.

Sorry - Somehow it posted twice and I don't know how delete the copy.


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## knotscott (Feb 27, 2009)

"Sorry - Somehow it posted twice and I don't know how delete the copy."

Now, you're even copying your own work! ;-)


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## Texcaster (Oct 26, 2013)

I always check the pawn shops for good student violins that I can setup and resell. Good or bad they're all the same price. My main fiddle is a 25 year old Roth with a $600 bow I paid $95 for. ( major gloat ) A year ago I found a Gibson Les Paul Gold Top, new, for $499. " Why so Cheap?" sez I. " It's A fake.", I was casually informed. It came from the Epiphone factory with a Gibson headstock profile and logo. I had heard vague murmerings about fakes, so I did a search that afternoon. Acoustics & electrics, it's a major problem for anyone that set up a factory overseas.
Any noob buying a Gibson or other on EBAY will most likely get burned. A person wouldn't dare show up for dinner in China these days with a bottle of French wine because of the fake labels. The Chinese are loath to buy prescription medicine made in China. Where will it end?


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## Mahdeew (Jul 24, 2013)

All of my work is original and as such, much time and thinking goes into it. Since I don't draw the design or map it out, a lot of trial and errors come with the creation. It wouldn't be cool to me if someone just grabbed that work and put their own name on it to sell. Whatever you name it, lack of imagination, greed, laziness, stealing, etc., doesn't make it right. Yes, I do look at other's work for inspiration and a gauge but to copy someone's work without permission, no way.


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## Darrell (Jul 29, 2008)

well said mrjinx ! 
Yes, we all take inspiration from others - there is a difference between stealing and inspiration. 
Most of us who work in a creative field (or any field for that matter) have spent years perfecting what we do. Almost no one starts out at the top. We all pay our dues to get where we are. Every piece that turns out right was preceded by a lot of failure and frustration. Its maddening when someone steals what you have worked for . These ethically challenged wannabe's have replaced self respect with greed and laziness.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

"These ethically challenged wannabe's have replaced self respect with greed and laziness."

Isn't that a lot our society, not just craftsman?


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

So Darrell - what makes it 'public domain'?

What line has to be crossed - e.g. is it OK to do Maloof now that he has passed?

Certainly there are styles that became all encompassing… like Craftsman, Federal, Chippendale, etc So somebody making a Philadelphia Highboy - while not totally their design, there isn't a particular person that is being plagiarized.

Your post really got me thinking about e.g. the Charles Brock DVD and Plans to make maloof Chairs and Rockers. Certainly he drew the plans -but with the goal to recreate the original as close as humanly possible.
Even on this site there are at least a dozen makers selling recreations. ANd even though Sam has passed - the 3 boys assumed ownership of the shop and are still making "originals" that Sam himself never touches.

I know you said you would not do a Maloof - but I imagine you are keeping busy with your own design work.

I agree 1000% with your OP regarding someone just lifting pics off the site and saying "they made that" are crooks, but am wondering more about where the line is for taking on a comission. If someone has pics out of a magazine and wants to know if you can do a built in - - or a Murphy bed "just like in Better Homes and Gardens issue XYZ" ............is that public domain?


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## Texcaster (Oct 26, 2013)

In music, songs like " Ida Red " or " Cotton Eyed Joe " are well and truly public domain but each new arrangement or performance of the song can be protected. An "arrangement" is usually someone improvising.


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## Darrell (Jul 29, 2008)

As you say - Sam's boys are still making a living from his designs. Personally I would stay away from commercial use of any Sam Maloof designs. I am not sure of the legality.

There is a lot of room for someone to make a living from antique reproduction. Old stuff that is obviously in the public domain is OK - an original Federal or Chippendale design would certainly be in the public domain. If someone still living, is making stuff "in the style of" Chippendale (for instance) and their designs cannot be traced back to an original Chippendale design, and is distinctively different - I would stay away from that as well.

I have had people bring me photos from magazines and such. In fact if a client does not have a clear view of what they want - I suggest jsut that. BUT I let them know the photos are for general reference only. What I design and build will be different. I would be cautious of making a copy of something from a magazine.

Unless you are doing antique reproduction (public domain stuff) - design is part of the equation we all work towards in this business. It is one of aspects by which our work is judged - just as a fine joinery is. Every professional furniture maker with self respect and integrity should stand on their own merit and not take from others.


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## shampeon (Jun 3, 2012)

A creative work is in the public domain if the rights have expired, or if the creator or rights holder puts it in the public domain either explicitly or by forfeiting the rights.


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## CoachSchroeder (Jan 3, 2014)

Interesting conversation.

I coach soccer for a living.
The pervasive attitude toward "stealing" someone else's practice plan or "drill" that helps teach a particular idea is that "All coaches are thieves" and this type of behavior is encouraged. If you see a coach do something that you think is useful you *should* copy them. Other coaches don't mind because a) its flattering and b) drills in and of themselves don't make the difference. The coach who delivers the appropriate feedback at just the right moment, to build the concept in the mind of the player, is what makes a "drill" good or bad.

You can copy someone's design but if you are a crap woodworker then the piece will also be crap.


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## Darrell (Jul 29, 2008)

The analogy to coaching may necessarily translate to woodworking though. 
The skill for fine joinery and design are not mutually inclusive. 
Furniture makers like many other endeavors, call upon a variety of skills in the commission of their work. These skills are the package we offer when competing for work. Design is but one of these skills. We must also be capable of producing good quality work in an efficient manner (time is money). We must be able to promote ourselves and be good at business. We need to have good social skills to deal with clients. And we need to design the things we make for clients.
This is by no means a complete list and not mentioned here are resources - like a well-equipped shop and funds for advertising.

We do not come into the world provided with an equal measure of all these things. We work hard and try our best to improve those things we are lacking in. I don't believe any of us can claim to be the very best at everything.

What we offer the world is a mix - we put ourselves out there and do our best. The package we offer has pluses and minuses. Potential clients must weigh these things. I for one am lousy at business and am somewhat lacking in social skills. I compete in a market where my work is judged upon its merits and not upon the merits earned by others.


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## CoachSchroeder (Jan 3, 2014)

Darrell,

Perhaps I was unclear. Your point is the same as mine (and actually very analogous to coaching). I can steal someone's designs but that doesn't mean I can reproduce their work. As you said, there is a lot that goes into becoming successful (at anything). Simply stealing a design, even if I have access to all the best tools, doesn't mean I have the skills to reproduce it with the same quality or compete with you in the marketplace.

Your work is incredible, by the way.


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## Darrell (Jul 29, 2008)

Sorry - I was trying to make a slightly different point and maybe I did not explain myself well.

A furniture maker can be good at one skill be not another. There are plenty of woodworkers out there who could do a very masterful job of reproducing just about anything - they may or may not have good design skills though - on the other hand there may be someone with great design skills that cannot produce good quality work. 
I guess my point was we have to live by our given abilities and skills - whatever they may be.


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## OhValleyWoodandWool (Nov 9, 2009)

Exactly copying somebody's deign for sale is wrong, very probably illegal, and downright intellectually lazy. The question is where is the line between copying and inspiration. There are several people on this site that make and sell cutting boards that look awfully similar. Have we copied? If so from whom?

A piece of furniture is a more complicated question. If you change one detail is it enough? Two details? Three details and wood choice? When does it go from being a copy to being an inspiration?

Earlier someone brought up photography. Ansel Adams made certain views of Yosemite extremely famous. His work is still under copyright. Innumerable photographer have stood in the exact same place, at the same time of day, at the same time of year, with the same or functionally the same equipment. Some of the results have been damn good. Some photogs sell these images. Wrong? Right? I don't know. What I do know is that as close as the "copied" images might come to an Adams original they never ever will be an original Ansel Adams.

I think this analogy is very close to what we are struggling with. No matter how close the copy, how good the craftmanship or anything else, a copy of a Maloof rocker, a Krenov cabinet, or a Peart Table can never be, or equal to the original. Does that make the copy right? I don't think so. It's at least intellectually dishonest, at most maybe actionable. But it happens, always has and always will. Can we stop it? No Should we try? Certainly we should stop the most egregious examples like the website that started this thread.

Well anyway, I would like some discussion on the line between inspiration and copying. Thanks


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Thanks ohValleyWoodandWool - - you stated my question better.

It is about that line - 
While possible and often done - can one make and sell copies of the lamps at Fallinwater even though that is explicitly Frank Lloyd Wright. I have seen them on this site - not sold but done as gifts which I agree is OK. But what abou someone making them to sell at a Pennsylvania Art and Craft show in State College?

They are selling as "Falling Water Lamps" - so credit is being given (not claimed as their own design) but it is certainly not the craftsmans original work or idea that they are selling.

Folks are selling 'Nakashima tables'....

I think there are very very few truly original designs out there today. Not that I am out making a living at woodworking, or have the skills to duplicate some of the work here, that being said you can probably find examples of most design elements, even going back to the Pharoes thrones entombed in Egypt.

Suppose my real Question is: When is it Public? 
what is the original artists expiration date? Same as their death certificate? 'X' years out of prodution?

I know there have been similar posts over the years - when folks have found their designs from LJ's - being factory made and imported from China…that is a whole different direction.


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## Darrell (Jul 29, 2008)

I agree - there is a point where the lines are blurred. BUT changing the wood or one or two small details certainly does not cut it. 
I asked my attorney a very similar question. He indicated that there is no magical percentage that must be changed in order to make it legal. Technically speaking I was told - if you have design element that you came up with - something that has not been done before and you are known for it - you could legally protect it. I personally do not feel good about perusing things to that detail. At that level we could probably all sue each other and it would become ridiculous. 
There is a lot of misconception out there and I would like to turn that around. A couple of years ago I ran across a website where two of my designs were stolen. My blanket chest was in a different wood and at one end there was a crazy looking open shelf. They also did my Aurora Chest of Drawers - again in a different wood. They arranged the drawer fingers a bit differently and a couple of other small items were altered. The overall shape was the same as was the tapered leg and drawers with cloud lifted arch. This person probably thought he had protected himself and changed just enough to squeeze by. He did not take the pieces down after I sent him a polite email. It was not worth my bother to peruse this instance. If it had been a large manufacturing entity - I may have gone after them. 
Here is an example of large company that thought it was OK to steal designs from others. It cost them 11.2 million dollars and put them in bankruptcy.
http://www.kilpatricktownsend.com/~/media/Files/NCLWJan25.ashx
I think a good guideline and question to ask yourself about inspiration versus copycat is this…. Am I taking someone else's work and attempting to change just enough to get by with it? If the answer is yes- you should not be doing it for profit. 
Like music - I relate to furniture design emotionally. I look at a design and get an emotional response. Inspiration is when I take that emotional response and express it differently. 
When I first discovered Greene and Greene - I was keen on reproducing their designs. I was able to do this for profit because their stuff is in the public domain. I learned a lot doing this. It gave me a very close look at these pieces and a deep understanding of the designs. There came a point in time when I wanted to move on and branch out. I wanted to extract the feeling from the design but not the specific elements. As an exercise, I would open the book to a specific G&G piece and intently study it every night for several minutes - put myself in a stupor and soak it in. I would do this for a couple of weeks, then close the book and not reopen it. A week or two later I would start to draw how I remembered the design. It always differed from the original and the difference was what I expanded upon. In the end, what I produced, might give me a similar emotional response but it bore little material resemblance to the original.

I see personal value in reproducing pieces we are inspired by - it gives us an intimate look at the design and a deeper understanding of what makes it work. If these pieces are not in the public domain they should be done for personal use only. If you have to ask yourself "is this copying" - the answer is probably yes. If students who took my blanket chest class were to see the chest with the open shelf - they would most assuredly say it was mine - this is certainly stealing!

Again I agree there is a point where the lines are fuzzy. If I see someone has taken a single design element of mine - I will likely not do anything. If someone has taken one of my designs and changed it to the point where I am guessing as to whether they crossed the line - I will leave it alone.
My attorney tells me slam-dunk cases of infringement only win 70% of the time. That's well more than half and I might venture to say that number may also represent the positive outcomes of cases that are truly of merit. My goal in protecting my intellectual property is not to put someone out of business or win a huge settlement. My long term goal is to educate and turn around some of the misconceptions that abound - if not from a legal standpoint at least from an ethical one.

I think one of the things that attract people to furniture making is the lack of product integrity by many of the mass producers …. a desire for something with substance, honesty, and integrity. Shoddy workmanship abounds in the commercial world. We all have railed on this and like to take pride in the integrity of our own construction. Lets also show a little integrity when it comes to design. Why not extend the pride we put into joinery - into our design work as well.


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## Darrell (Jul 29, 2008)

Thats a good question DrDirt

When does it become public domain? From a legal point I have no idea - the stuff I have reproduced was obviously in the public domain and I was not confronted with that question. I have a feeling it may depend upon whether the work was trademarked and copyrighted and if that is still in effect.


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## Mahdeew (Jul 24, 2013)

I agree Darrell, going the legal way will go no where, as we all know, it is the 99.9% of the lawyers that make the rest of them look bad. So, yes take pride in your work as well as our design; they go hand in hand together and eventually become your signature.


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## shampeon (Jun 3, 2012)

When does it become public domain? From a legal point I have no idea

The short answer is: it's complicated.
http://www.unc.edu/~unclng/public-d.htm

But there is also the issue of defense. A work copyrighted in 1950 by a designer that died in 1980 would technically be protected until 2050 (life + 70 years), but only if the rights holders defended those rights. If other people used the protected designs from 1980 until now with no defense by the rights holders, those rights were forfeited, and the design is in the public domain.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Regarding contacting the individual, if you know the applicable laws and write well, you don't need to incur the expense of an attorney. I've sent letters out on various issues over the years, some to judges and many to attorneys and citing applicable law in a well written letter (make it look as formal and "lawyer like" as possible) and most back off.

For example, I'm having problems with AmeriGas billing us for propane delivered to a renter. Essentially, that's using the United States Mail to make demands for money not owed. Doing this repeatedly violates postal laws and the RICO Act, both which can be found in Title 18 of the United States Code (around sections 1962 & 1984). Citing these laws and pointing to the email or web page wherein the illegal act can be found goes a long way toward solving the problem. Even more so when the facts an cites to the law are set out in a declaration and published about the Net (it's not libel if you can prove it true).

It's totally fair game to "steal" legal documents from the public record and modify them for your use. Many attorneys run much of their business off boiler plate documents. In fact, in family law, most documents are supplied by upper court administration and deviating from them requires additional [simple] language.


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## Darrell (Jul 29, 2008)

_I agree Darrell, going the legal way will go no where, as we all know, it is the 99.9% of the lawyers that make the rest of them look bad_

I am certainly not eager to file law suits - if there comes a case where the offender refuses to take my designs down and my attorney advises me we have a solid case - I will likely protect my design in court.


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## Darrell (Jul 29, 2008)

but only if the rights holders defended those rights. If other people used the protected designs from 1980 until now with no defense by the rights holders, those rights were forfeited, and the design is in the public domain.

It may be in my best interest to defend my designs through the legal system - It appears if I don't I may loose them forever. It is sad that it may come to this.


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## mhfinefurniture (Jan 21, 2012)

Darrell,
I (and my wife who has listened to my rants) fully appreciate you anger and frustration that comes with having you hard earned work/designs lifted. I have had to watch for many years as my designs have been copied while generating many millions of dollars in sales. The most egregious of offenders actually have a video on there website talking about how they came up with the idea, though I did get the satisfaction of showing up one day and confronting them, their reply "you don't have a patent". I have taken a call from the owner of a large furniture manufacture asking questions about my tables/designs, then watch as they debut a new line that looks striking similar to what I make. As this point, my design has been copied so many times, that I don't think people even know where it originated. 
I highly doubt the people who lifted the pictures could actually make what is shown, so I don't think you will lose any business, but I understand how infuriating it is non the less because of how difficult this business is.

For a small maker, I think Maloof's answer to this problem was part genius, rather than litigate it, he just had everybody use "Maloof inspired", which just made his rockers more coveted.


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## CharlesA (Jun 24, 2013)

Copying for fun or profit is one thing. But I would think in this case there is some form of fraud going on in that he is representing work not his as indicative of what he can produce when, in fact, its not his work.


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## Kickback (Mar 9, 2011)

It seems that their site is down as of right now???? I wonder if all the heat generated in this thread caused the site to be taken down? If so then bravo for you Darrell. That is the lowest of the lows and would not get them anywhere in thus life as they would eventually be discovered as fakes and cheats.


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## Mahdeew (Jul 24, 2013)

Here is my two cents. A while back I had designed a roller brush that pretty much cleaned itself with less than a gallon of water and when it was done, it was almost dry. I tried to patented the idea but now days, you can not patent an idea locally, I mean withing USA; it has to be done globally. Well, the cost is astronomical; to search the world to see if it has been thought off. I gave up on the idea and got a contact from China. He was willing to manufacture my idea and saturate the USA and Europe with the product. It would have cost me more to patent than to go with this guy and possibly make a fortune; but it just didn't seem right. I made a few friends and some family totally pissed off at me, but in the real world this is how it works. You take you idea to a Chines manufacturer and they saturate the market with it. By the the time the inventor who already has spend a fortune to patent the product, can not fight you in an international court system. In fact, there are so many Chinese sites out there that offer you a $1000 contest to come up with a design. Whether you get the money or not, I don't know; but they know how to use a good idea to make millions. By the way, just because a manufacturer is "chines" it doesn't mean they are, they can be Europeans, Americans, Russians and so on; doing business in China.


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## Darrell (Jul 29, 2008)

Mrjinx,
I was told the same thing about patents by my attorney. This seems more than a little foul to me. I understand your frustration.
If I had my way, I would re-shape the world to allow someone with a bit of ambition and a great idea to make good. Patents seem to be slanted in favor of large corporations or the very wealthy. I can't help but wonder if this is not by design to eliminate upcoming competition. These day's it's an empty myth that someone can start at the bottom with nothing more than a great idea (invention) and succeed.
Protecting my designs with copyrights and a trademark is not expensive - but patents are a different story. I took my square punch idea to Lee Valley and they took out what's called a "design Patent" on it. I get a royalty check three times a year. 
I have another idea that might qualify for a patent - but I certainly can't afford to file for a one on my own. My options are either to produce it myself until someone legally steals it- or have some company or corporation produce it and receive royalties.
When researching my first book - I was at Gary Hall's (grandson Peter Hall) house going through Peter Hall's papers. Peter had applied for and received patents on various hinges and such. It seems the world was different 100 years ago. The Hall brothers were not super wealthy and yet Peter held patents on his ideas.


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## basswood (Dec 18, 2013)

I have an invention that I am told would require 3 separate patents. Each patent will cost in a range of 5 to 10 thousand dollars. Defending each patent in court may cost 100K to a million dollars, for each infringement of each patent.

So you may own the patent, but be entirely unable to pay to defend it.

This is the principle reason people take out patents and license them to large corporations with deep pockets. They can't afford to manufacture their own product, because they can't afford to defend it.


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## Mahdeew (Jul 24, 2013)

So very true Darrel and basswood. I may have to approach a manufacturer in regards to my invention and go the royalty route. Corporatocracy is here to stay.


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## bonesbr549 (Jan 1, 2010)

I read all the responses and all the legal traps. It's extremely confusing. I went to Darrell's site an sir your pieces are fantastic. The question I have is, how to tell the lines and they are crossed. For example your site lists "Green and Green" style pieces. Forgive me, I'm not schooled in that style enough. I do see that style in your pieces, but where do you take it to unique. Please don't take offense, I'm not meaning to challenge your design capability at all nor do I doubt your word, but not knowing the full style itself I just cant tell. Maybe it's easier for me as I prefer to make the old stuff where there is no question but that its been around since the early American times, so I'm just ignorant but would hate to make a piece at someone's request (which I do on occasion), only to find out I'm doing something wrong. (please no flames folks, just asking a serious question)


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## Darrell (Jul 29, 2008)

bonesbr,
It is difficult if you are not schooled in the style. If I were asked to make a piece from a photo - I would first ask where the piece in the photo came from - and do a bit of research.

When I come upon someone copying one of my designs for sale - I first send them a polite email explaining things. For all I know they may not have realized it was my design. The vast majority of people understand and take the piece down.


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