# Donald Trump Explains Health Care



## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*Donald Trump Explains Health Care

Here's what Donald Trump had to say about Obama Care.*

Let me get this straight . . . …

We're going to be "gifted" with a health care Plan we are forced to purchase and fined if we don't,

Which purportedly covers at least ten million more people,

without adding a single new doctor,

but provides for 16,000 new IRS agents,

*
written by a committee whose chairman says he doesn't understand it,

passed by a Congress that didn't read it but exempted themselves from it,

*
and signed by a President who smokes,

... 
with funding administered by a treasury chief who didn't pay his taxes,

for which we'll be taxed for four years before any benefits take effect,

by a government which has already bankrupted Social Security and Medicare,

all to be overseen by a surgeon general who is obese,

and financed by a country that's broke!!!!!

What the hell could possibly go wrong

hat tip to Big Buff

*
Original Source:
Donald Trump Explains Health Care

*


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## sandhill (Aug 28, 2007)

Love it.


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## patron (Apr 2, 2009)

while everyone was busy watching football …................


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

That's friggin awesome!


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

*What the hell could possibly go wrong.*

Joe, you've got a point there. You've surely got a point. Too bad we couldn't sneak old Shallow Water Murphy into the Congress to give 'em all a lecture on Murphy's Law. ;-|

helluvawreck
https://woodworkingexpo.wordpress.com


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## superdav721 (Aug 16, 2010)

Look at the postal service. Anytime the government takes something over it fails.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*helluvawreck:

What the hell could possibly go wrong.

Joe, you've got a point there. You've surely got a point.*

No… Not MY point!

*That's Donald Trump's point…! LOL

... but, I DO agree with him! LOL
*


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## muleskinner (Sep 24, 2011)

I'm surprised he didn't go all-in with 'death panels' and 'socialized medicine'. What a piker.


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## JollyGreen67 (Nov 1, 2010)

I think that's called puker. B


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## Viktor (Jan 15, 2009)

There is something truly Orwellian in the comatose state of American political conciseness. The Trump's remarks of course are about individual mandate, which was a Republican idea to begin with, as anyone with attention span in access of 15 minutes clearly remembers.

In the early 90s conservatives in opposition to Clinton's employer mandate pushed for an individual mandate. The idea was simple and well argued: *an individual mandate was a free-market solution that would make people take responsibility for themselves* and stop being freeloaders. Constitutionality of the issue was never questioned. Keep in mind that EMTALA passed in 1986 and signed by Reagan required hospitals to provide emergency care to anyone regardless of ability to pay, effectively transferring losses onto the paying customers. Fast forward 25 years and the patriots are up in arms outraged with the government infringing upon freeloader's right to get free stuff. How dare it!

Prominent individuals who have supported individual healthcare mandate included George H. W. Bush, Newt Gingrich, and of course Mitt Romney, who as recently as in 2009 publicly urged Obama to use it at the national level to control healthcare cost citing its success in doing so in Massachusetts. But forget the politicians. The idea had traction among intellectually honest people as well (in fact it emanated from them). Those included scholars of conservative think tanks such as American Enterprise Institute and Heritage Foundation and of course the icon of laissez-faire economics Milton Friedman himself, who in a Wall Street Journal article called for the "requirement that every U.S. family unit have a major medical insurance policy." Written in complete sentences and longer than an average bumper sticker I'm pretty sure that one went below the radars of the general public.

So, there. Enjoy Trump's drivel and the world's highest costs of healthcare administration. I'm sure the thought that those costs are privately operated is comforting.

Have a nice day.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*Viktor:*

I think Donald covered MORE than just the Mandate…

If you have links to backup your comments, I'd like to see them.


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

The individual mandate was a bad idea then and its a bad idea now. If the government truely wanted to provide healthcare to those that had no insurance they could have really beefed up the number of lost cost clinics providing care (you know health care not insurance because they are different). There is a severe lack of providers now, with the clinics they could have encouraged bright young minds to get into medicine by offereing forgivness on loans for time spent in clinic.

People also needed to change their mindset, insurance is not so you dont have to pay $20 for a perscription although most people treat it that way. Insurance is for paying for the half a million bill for cancer treatment. This mechanism already existed in the high deductable insurance plan, these plans are very affordable because they dont pay for things like medicine for the sniffles.

Being in position to see how the military treats healthcare is rather interesting, you have people that go to the doc to get a perscription so they dont have to pay $5 for over the counter allergy medicine. I have a feeling this is what will happen in our future. Unfortunately Americans would rather spend $1000 on rims for their car than $50 for a checkup visit with their doctor.

While EMTALA was the right thing to do it brought out the worst in people. In recent years stories about how insurance companies wouldnt pay for certian procedures for some poor dying little kid came out in the media, this same thing is only going to hapen more.


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## danr (Sep 5, 2009)

that is unconstitutional,


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*LOL…*


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## lwllms (Jun 1, 2009)

Public opinion, such as it is, and the Affordable Care Act:

A larger image is available at http://www.thirdway.org/publications/507


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

If you have links to backup your comments, I'd like to see them.

Says the guy who non-stop posts other people's (uncited) opinions. The pot calling the kettle black, hey Joe?


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## BobM001 (Jan 8, 2012)

The statements made by Pelosi, Reid, et al when this bureaucratic fiasco was being debated that healthcare is a "RIGHT" comes straight out of FDR's progressive "New Bill of Rights". Healthcare IS NOT a "right". No more than car insurance is. The whole law is UNCONSTITUTIONAL. Besides the primary cause for the rising cost of healthcare is SUE HAPPY LAWYERS. The one thing that is not mentioned in ONE LINE of the ACA is "torte reform". Why? Because most of the composition of our legislative houses is comprised of *LAWYERS!* They aren't going to do anything to hurt the "ambulance chaser" industry that you see on the TV constantly. Their "brethren".

Here's a "figure" for you to chew on. My nephew's wife's father is an OB/Gyn. He "used to" deliver babies. He threw in the towel. His malpractice insurance premium for just himself in a 3 doctor practice was $300,000.00/year. So for all three doctors it's $900,000.00/year. That doesn't even factor in other operating expenses such as payroll for staff, the office bldg, or anything else. How would you like to have to cover that "nut"? So who pays for this? WE DO!! Can you imagine what hospitals have to pay? I had heard that ER nurses were being forced to pay their own malpractise insurance out of pocket.
This issue MUST be addressed in ANY type of healthcare legislation.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*BobM001*

*
His malpractice insurance premium for just himself in a 3 doctor practice was $300,000.00/year. So for all three doctors it's $900,000.00/year.*

That is a very good example how it really is!

Kinda hard to believe that the Doctors malpractice insurance could be so high isn't it?!
... it doesn't stop there… Drug companies, equipment manufactures, etc. are also effected.

Now, figure out how many Office Calls, patients, operations, etc. that the average good Dr. must have in order to just pay for that insurance! Very quickly you will get the message that the Dr. MUST pass on that expense to their patients! The Dr. must eat too! LOL

If the Dr. has 1,000 patients that he sees in a year, the average cost to each patient, just for the insurance, would be $300 each/year… or $25/mo. just to pay for the Insurance!

*Does that give you any idea of what that impact really has on the whole Medical profession?*

It's very obvious that * IF* just that ONE item of concern were reduced back to *Pre-Greed Runaway Malpractice Suit conditions,* the overall COSTS connected to the Medical field, which includes, equipment, medicine, as well as Labor, would / should DROP dramatically (unless the insurance companies want to stay greedy & keep it high to put more in their pockets!).

*Tort reform… controlling Malpractice suits… stopping the ambulance chasers, etc. *

(BTW, the costs of a short two-block ride in an Ambulance is probably well over $2,000… (it was $1,000 in 2001) for the same reasons!)

*... and this subject has NOT been addressed by Government in any way… because Lawyers do not cut their own throats! LOL
*


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## lwllms (Jun 1, 2009)

"Look at the postal service. Anytime the government takes something over it fails."

Huh??? I see you are as uniformed about what's going on with the Post Office as you are about our political system and our Constitution. In Article 1, Section 8 Congress was charged with establishing the Postal System. It's always been a function of the Government. The primary cause of the Post Office's financial problems is a 2006 law, passed by a lame-duck Republican Congress that requires the Post Office to prepay for retiree health care costs 75 years in advance. Name one other business or organization that has this requirement! This law was both a strike at unions and an attempt to privatize the Postal Service.

If you want an example of how privatizing works for the people, look at the Workmen's Compensation system. It used to be Government run and it was one of the first programs privatized. It used to work well. Now it passes almost all the costs for work related injuries to the Social Security system but it's still mandated that all employers pay for it for each employee. What the employer gets for his/her payment is exemption is immunity from any liability for workers injured on the job. Injured workers basically get nothing but can't sue their employer for the injury no matter how negligent an employer is. The only recourse for survival for badly injured workers is to sue the manufacturer of what ever tool or implement they were using at the time. This is the reason for the majority of the so-called "frivolous" lawsuits those on the right like to complain about. Buy a ladder and the majority of the wholesale cost of that ladder is to cover liability insurance for the manufacturer. It's that way with many products and it costs society a lot of money to have this privatized workmen's compensation system that's a failure but profitable for insurance companies.

BTW, as a disabled veteran I get my health care from the best, the most efficient and the cost effective health care system in this Country. It's the Government run VA Healthcare System. My wife has very good insurance through her work but I get much better care than she does. I wish I could get her and my daughter the kind of health care I get through the VA.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

Insurance for obstetrics is so high because if the doctor screws up, the child may have to live with it for life. Insurance rates vary by specialty, by state and sometimes within the state and have nothing to do with PPACA (obamacare). $300k/yr sounds very high, the highest rates I could find in a google search are in Florida where they run $100-200k/year; in most states the cost is between $55-85k/yr. Regular doctors pay substantially less.

The primary cause of the Post Office's financial problems is a 2006 law, passed by a lame-duck Republican Congress that requires the Post Office to prepay for retiree health care costs 75 years in advance.

Very true. The PO has already prepayed retirement benefits for employees they haven't hired yet, that's why they are going into the red otherwise they would be fine. When people complain about USPS, I don't think they realize the scale of it… USPS is the largest postal organization in the world by a wide margin and transports mail around the globe. I can send a letter cross country in 3 days for less than the price of a candy bar, that's pretty efficient. And it isn't just me saying it:
http://money.cnn.com/2012/02/06/news/economy/postal_service/index.htm


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

ObamaCare does not address the issue of "tort control" and the high malpractice insurance premiums that are being charged.

Lawyers don't screw Lawyers… it's the Big Boy club they don't mess with.


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## BobM001 (Jan 8, 2012)

Think about this with respect to medical lawsuits. How many do you think get settled "out of court" just so that the insurance company doesn't have to go through the expense of litigation? Even if NO FAULT was PROVEN on the physician? These "ambulance chasers" with their "No FEE GUARANTEE" end up with 1/3 of anything settled upon. The problem? TOO MANY LAWYERS NOT ENOUGH doctors and nurses.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*
Even if NO FAULT was PROVEN on the physician?

*
That, to me, is a public invitation saying "Here I am, sue me, I pay Insurance for that!".

Yes?

How can we Change that?


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## madts (Dec 30, 2011)

Joe: You should go into your shop and cut some wood.


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## JollyGreen67 (Nov 1, 2010)

Is auto insurance unconstitutional? Is homeowners insurance unconstitutional? Is vehicle registration unconstitutional? Is vehicle safety inspection unconstitutional? Is vehicle emissions check unconstitutional? Is being strip searched by the TSA unconstitutional ? Is the congress unconstitutional?


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## jeepturner (Oct 3, 2010)

Thanks lwllms and wormil for some facts about healthcare and the US Postal service, but if you're trying to convince people who all ready are quit aware(convinced) of how the world works you will be disappointed. There was a study of people done by a university in Ca. that showed that when people are given evidence that contradicts their beliefs, they don't become less confident in their beliefs. In fact, and surprisingly they become even more convinced that they are right. 
Don't stop your posting though, people who have not made up their minds may need your viewpoint.
I don't listen to the Donald, don't watch his show, never listened to Fox when they were all agog at him running for the presidency. 
I don't like the Affordable Healthcare Act. It is going the wrong way. Putting more money into the insurance industry that should be going to making our citizens more healthy. I would rather have something like the VA hospital system open for everyone. If it was well funded, it would work for every one. If someone wanted "better" care they could pay for it out of pocket. I think the whole compromise with the republicons by starting where they were, and then they just moved further away from their prior position was wrong and doomed from the start.

I have a question, do any of you object to having a public fire department? Do you object to having public education? If you object to paying three dollars per day to feed a child, are you willing to adopt that child and feed it? If you are not willing to adopt them, just what do you propose to do with them? Our prisons are over crowded how many more people do you want to put behind bars? Do you think it cheaper to house a criminal than it is to feed a child?

Thanks for bringing up FDR. He said that taxes were the dues we paid to live in a civilized society. All one would have to do if they hated taxes that bad is move to Somalia. Somalia has to be a modern conservatives dream, small government and religion plays a large part in every bodies life.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

My problem with PPACA is that it isn't clear how it benefits me. It is another bloated piece of legislation that the benefits of which haven't been clearly communicated by the proponents and have been muddled by the opposition. Over the years as an employee, my insurance cost rose every year while my coverage and choice in doctors dwindled. Dentistry for example, over the years I've had to change dentists a few times because they are no longer part of my plan. I could choose a dentist outside the plan and pay a substantial penalty… and actually had to do this for my kids. Now that I am self-employed, supposedly I could buy insurance from an exchange but I have no idea how or where to do that, or even if it is available yet. A single payer system would have been so much simpler and would have benefited more people. In the end, it isn't what you pay, it's what you get and I feel like I am neither rich enough nor poor enough to benefit from most government programs.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)




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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Rosebud -
*Is auto insurance unconstitutional?* 
No it is required BY THE STATE - not federal, and applies to auto owners.
Nobody forces you to own a car

*Is homeowners insurance unconstitutional?* 
No it is only required by the bank to secure its loan - pay off the loan you are free to drop insurance! - -not required by any government state nor federal

*Is vehicle registration unconstitutional? *
NO State matter - and only if you own a vehicle - - not a requirement "just for breathing"

*Is vehicle safety inspection unconstitutional?*
NO State matter - and only if you own a vehicle - - not a requirement "just for breathing"

*Is vehicle emissions check unconstitutional? *

NO - State matter - and only if you own a vehicle - - not a requirement "just for breathing"

*Is being strip searched by the TSA unconstitutional ? *
Actually I think it goes against the 4th ammendment myself to strip search people and use body scanners with zero probable cause. The fact they scan EVERYBODY, doesn't magically make it OK. Just like they police searching every house on the block for drugs would not magically be legal just because the did that to EVERYONE and you weren't singled out.

*Is the congress unconstitutional?*
Congress is specifically created by the constitution - so it would be hard for a congress to be Unconstitutional

How about focussing on powers of the *federal* government.
I just thank god with the regulations that they mandate printing on my package of Dentyne gum - "not a significant source of dietary nutrients" geeze… I would just die withoug that!


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

DrDirt you stole the words out of my mouth. There are so many people that could not even tell you what the Constitution says, unfortunately alot in congress are this way (on both sides).


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## lwllms (Jun 1, 2009)

So the most recent Ryan budget doesn't mention veterans once-not a single mention. What it does do is cut eleven billion dollars from the VA budget. Really? At a time when all the veterans the Bush cabal created need the services of the VA? Where are the flag-waving "support the troops" crowds now? It's more of what the Disabled American Veterans called the Republican war on veterans' benefits.

http://video.msnbc.msn.com/martin-bashir/46838452#46838452


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

lwllms - - It is interesting that John Soltz, who is being interviewed in your link by whatever stand-in that is for martin Bashir, they are simply discussing his Huffington Post blog - -

Not sure bloggers interviewed on MSNBC are really experts on this - but setting that aside -
Things I LOL'd 
The host MOANED about how the "NEARLY 300 page document" as if that is some ridiculously huge thing - yet the Senate Healthcare bill itself is 2070 and the House version was 1990…so they happily poured through 4000 pages of one bill, but the LESS than 300 page budget is ridicuously long.

What I keyed in on is *HOW DID THEY DETERMINE THE 11 BILLION CUT?*
They open the dialog mentioning that the word 'VETERAN' never appears in the bill, yet they can specifically identify 11 billion in cuts to the VA… even the comitted left SHOULD be shouting bull******************** on those kinds of claims!

Nice try to hijack the healthcare hread to discuss the the comments by some random blogger on the Ryan budget though.


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

So where is the Democrats budget? That right they dont have one, easy to complain and point fingers and say thats terrible but yet offer no alternative.


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## lwllms (Jun 1, 2009)

So Pat, are you familiar with the Constitution? Those on the right seem to have some trouble with this. Article I, Section 7, clause 1 says "All bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; but the Senate may propose or concur with Amendments as on other Bills." Democratic alternatives have been offered and rejected because the Republicans control the house and have their own draconian view of how things should go. Democratic alternatives aren't even considered by Ryan's committee.

DrDirt,
The Center on Budget Policy and Priorities has a pretty good article on the impact of the Ryan budget, including its impact on veterans. You might want to look at the chart for detailed cuts.
http://www.cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=3637


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

lwllms, where? I sure haven't seen one. They don't seem to care all that much or it would be "out there".

I will put it out there that I am a strict conservative, but not a Republican, they are not conservative. I believe the federal government should only provide two things, infrastructure and defense.

From here

*Senate Democrats, for their part, haven't even put out a proposal of their own: They've already announced they have no plans to pass a budget this year, which means Congress will go without a tax-and-spending blueprint for the third consecutive year. *

Three years, so how serious do you think the Senate Democrats are?


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

The Democrat Congress and Senate could pass Obamacare but they could not and did not do a budget (can't pass something that was never done) - that would make them accountable for what they spent


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

LWLLMS - 
I did read it did you ?- - -The left wing council says the following:

■By 2018, programs would have to be cut by an average of 25 percent. If the cuts are spread proportionally over all programs:

KEY COMMENT - - *IF the cuts are spread proportionally*... e.g. we apply a single percentage cut to each and every program.

THus the BULL******************** on the VA. They are simply making crap up for headline value - - the Ryan budget is a blueprint to balance tax revenue with spending, that shows how revenue will grow through the coming DECADES and how much spending would need to be reduced.

AGAIN NOWHERE does it mention a single cut to the VA….that is an ASSUMPTION made by cbpp.org

It could turn out to be correct, I don';t know , YOU don't know and CBPP doesn't know either. It is simply their OPINION - being presented as FACT…. and that is Bull.

From their report :
The Ryan plan, with its $4.5 trillion in spending cuts over 10 years, would not achieve balance until sometime in the 2030s, according to the Congressional Budget Office.

So we are borrowing 1.3-1.8 trillion EVERY year, and this draconian cut proposes 450Billion (annual) in cuts. and we still won't balance for another 20 years….. all while Harry Reid refuses to even have a budget vote, nevermind a proposal.

Your consititional comment is wrong as well - yes REVENUE raising bills (e.g. TAX INCREASES) have to originate in the House. Budgets and spending plans do NOT.

By the way the Senate budget is NOT allowed to be fillibustered either, so they do not need 60 votes, only a simple majority, which the democrats have even if all the republicans fled the city like the wisconsin democrats did at the state level.

So question remains - why are we STILL on the path to financial ruin? It isn't still Bush's Fault there is no budget.


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## lwllms (Jun 1, 2009)

Well DrDirt, I happen to get my health care through the VA. Are you saying the current VA hiring freeze and budget cuts won't continue? I see what these are doing each visit and each time I deal with the VA. My last cancer follow-up turned out to be a big waste of time. The lab is so short-staffed I didn't have my lab work done in time for my appointment. Lab tests that used to involve maybe a 15 or 20 minute wait now run about 4 to 6 hours just to have the samples collected. I now am calling to have prescriptions renewed every couple months, they used to be a year's worth of refills but the most they'd send out at any time was 3 months worth.

The Republican "I hate Government" attitude seems to extend to any Government activity or program. There's nothing the Republicans seem to hate more than a successful Government program. That's why they're trying to kill VA Health Care, Social Security, Medicare and even health programs for women and children.

You're getting your information from pretty skewed sources. There have been a number of budget proposals but the teahadist "no compromise" mentality makes them futile efforts. Here are a couple:

The White House 2013 budget proposal:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2012/02/13/2013-budget-0

The Progressive Caucus 2013 budget proposal:

http://nationalpriorities.org/en/analysis/2012/competing-visions/


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

State or federal is irrelevant to constitutionality.


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

wormil, apparently you never read the 10th ammendment

*The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. *


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

lwllms

I can't find any confirmation on a VA wide hiring freeze anywhere, where did you hear this? Government hiring is very decentralized and it may just be a particular location, or division that has a hiring freeze.

I can say I wouldnt agree with giving someone a perscription for a full year unless it was for something rather harmless such as 1000mg motrin.

I work with a lot of people that get VA benefits, some of what they get benefits for amazes me. On of my coworkers is 360 lbs and naturally has high blood pressure, he gets a few hundred dollars a month because of that. He is my friend but I think getting paid because he is over weight is wrong. Another spent two nights in vietnam waiting for a flight to come back to the US, not sure what his disability is, and he gets extra because he was considered to be in a war zone even though it was just spending a few nights at an airbase waiting for a flight home. You will have a hard time convincing me that such situations deserve payments, treatment yes payments no.


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## lwllms (Jun 1, 2009)

Pat,

A veteran only gets disability for a service connected disability. Some times it's very hard to prove something is service connected but you don't get disability if you can't. I don't get disability for my cancer even though most Vietnam veterans with this cancer do. I was a blue water sailor and don't get agent orange coverage even though blue water sailors seem to have had similar dioxin exposure as ground troops. If you want more information on this the Blue Water Navy site has a lot:

http://www.bluewaternavy.org/

My service connected disability is significant hearing loss. A few years on the flight deck of an aircraft carrier tends to do that to you even if you wear hearing protection, which was mandatory. I didn't get disability for being basically deaf as a cob until I appealed a denial for dioxin/agent orange coverage, 37 years after I first applied for the hearing loss. As I said, it's not all that easy to get and I get a whopping $124 a month, which may cover a tenth of the time I spend each month having people repeat what they said.

The two drugs I take are mild and for long-term conditions. They used reviewed every year during my annual physical and I'd get them in three month refills. Now I have to call every three months for a renewal.

Several people at my local VA have, in hushed tones, mentioned the hiring freeze. I don't know how many primary care teams there were at the local VA hospital. My team number is 12. In the last year two of the primary care doctors retired and weren't replaced, their patients were spread around to the other teams. I don't know what happened to the Patient Advocate position there, I haven't seen anyone in that office for about a year. There used to be two labs for blood draws and other lab work. One had four or five lab techs and the other six or seven. Now there's one with two or three lab techs working. Even the front desk in the main lobby is no longer manned. Lines for everything are longer. All this is happening when we have a lot of new veterans fresh from two wars?


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

Im really sorry to hear about your cancer, what type do you have? My dad died of pancreatic cancer, its really a terrible way to live the end of your life.

I know the disabilities are supposed to be service related but I see many people milking the system, I dont considered someone disabled that can work a regular job making about $85k/year on top of their military retirement. I also know about "the lottery" sneak in with a preexisting condition and then have it discovered while serving.


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## lwllms (Jun 1, 2009)

Pancreatic cancer is a hard road. Sorry to hear about that.

I'm okay. I think I dodged that bullet. Other than a broken arm, I hadn't been to a doctor in probably about eight years and went in for an infected sore on my thumb. One thing led to another and I ended up being diagnosed. The cancer was caught early and removed. I have some problems with body parts that were removed but it's kinda minor considering what probably would have happened. I have to have six-month follow-ups from now on but that's fine. I've been cancer free for three years. The whole episode was a lot harder for my wife and daughter than me, I was just along for the ride.

I did see a couple career officers retire with disability. The day before they retired they were pilots collecting flight pay and passing flight physicals and on retirement they're suddenly disabled. That came from the military medical stuff, not the VA. I don't think that kind of treatment happened for enlisted people.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

wormil, apparently you never read the 10th ammendment

Over 200 state laws have been ruled unconstitutional. As I said, "State or federal is irrelevant to constitutionality."


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## JollyGreen67 (Nov 1, 2010)

To the nit-pickers out there - I know what the constitution says/reads, I have my own copy. If we have states rights, how come the Feds tell the states that if they do not have laws on the books about auto insurance, emission inspections, federally mandated IDs, etc, the states will lose their highway funds, or any thing else the feds can think of. As for the TSA, they are nothing but a bunch of lecherous gays, who enjoy sticking their fingers up your butt. Where else can they get an "honest" job to do their whacko touchy-feely sicko jobs - legally?
Besides - I was throwing those questions out there to see who really thinks the states have rights. The nut case governer of Texas was trying to secced - was that legal? I was hoping so, then they would not be on the receiving end of all those tax dollars from the fed, and there would be more for us.
The worst case of being unconstitutional is---------THE PATRIOT ACT! You have a library card - it comes under the patriot act. You have a phone, it comes under the patriot act. You have a computer, it comes under the patriot act. The Feds can kick down your door for whatever reason, patriot act. NOW, THE LAME ASS SUPREME COURT DEEMS THE POLICE CAN DO A STRIP SEARCH FOR WHATEVER REASON!


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

Wormil, tell me one that doesn't violate the part of the 10th ammendment that reads *"nor prohibited by it to the States"*


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

Rosebud the stats are free not to take the money, what the fed has done to the states is created a welfare class with the states where it can use coersion for funds. This is no different than buying votes with welfare.

I hate the TSA as I fly often for work, but I find you comparision to gays very disturbing.

We do agree about the Patriot act, why the hell do I need to show ID to buy the over the counter cold medicine that actually works? And why in the hell did the President Obama let it be renewed when the Senator Obama decried it?


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

lwllms, great to hear about your cancer being gone for three years. My dad actually lived for 4 years with his whichwas great. His last round of chemo was over a year, the dr just took him off it cause he said he had never heard of anyone being on it for so long, thats when he got worse. Sometimes I dont think Dr's are agressive enough because of possible lawsuits.

In general I dont have a high opinion of many pilots, a few are ok though.

There are people that live to "game the system" no matter what the system. Anyways my point in all this is not to deride the VA, they are needed because the civilian system just doesnt see the same kind of injuries/problems enough to treat them effectively, my point is that there is not an endless supply of money and there is probably fat that could be trimmed that doesn't effect good service. Sorry for the bad sentence structure there LOL.


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## JollyGreen67 (Nov 1, 2010)

Pat - I admit I steped over the line about the TSA being a bunch of gay people - apologies. But, intentions were, how can a bunch of "comrads" be comfortable sticking something up you butt? You also correct that the fed has made the states a welfare recipient. Pilots?

DrDirt - my sarcasm on the constitunionality of numerous items went - - - - - - - - ziiiiiiiiiing - - - - - - - - over a whole lot of heads!

Iwllms - and whomever, I am also a VA welfare recipient. Make that an Agent Orange recipient, of our wonderful
government/pentagon admission of guilt - - -26 YEARS AFTER THE FACT.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

Wormil, tell me one that doesn't violate the part of the 10th ammendment that reads "nor prohibited by it to the States"

There is more to that amendment than the sentence fragment you quoted and there is more to the Constitution than the amendments, perhaps you should read ALL of it and study up a bit. In short, it adds up like this: the Constitution is the supreme law of the land, state laws that violate the Constitution can be challenged in federal court. This is not my opinion, this is a fact of how our government works.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Jim -
To your question about insurance mandates from the fed to the states - - it is simple..,..extortion

Just like setting the states drinking ages all to 21.

IF the states refuse the mandate, than federal funds for highways are witheld.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*DrDirt…*

Yep, that is *Clearly Extortion…*

We either do as they say or NOT get paid…

*Extortion..*. They can do it… but we can't… LOL


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

I owe Viktor a beer (or beverage of his choice)!
.
.
*EMTALA passed in 1986 and signed by Reagan*
.
I'm a Republican who loves Reagan, that's a fact. But this one is what it is. Given all the politcal rantings of late, I can't believe it took this long for someone to bring up emtala. Good looking out, Viktor
.
Carry on


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

Worml

1) Your arguing semantics
2) Your still wrong

Take for example the 18th ammendment banning the sell, manufacture, transport of alcoholic beverages, the 21st ammendment repealed that. The federal government can not make a law outlawing the sell, manufacture, transport of alcoholic beverages without another ammendment to the constitution, however the states and counties are free to do so. In fact Mississippi was a dry state until 1966, there are many dry counties currently. I have heard the county in TN where Jack Daniels is made is actually a dry county, I don't know if that is a fact though.

So are dry counties laws unconstitutional?


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

Who Struck John?!

Who's on First?

What?

NO!

Who's on First!


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

1) Your arguing semantics

Which words are we in disagreement over the definition?

2) Your still wrong

Believing I'm wrong and demonstrating it are two different things.

however *the states and counties are free to do so*.
...
So are dry counties laws unconstitutional?

You have answered your own question.


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

Your original post said (and that was the entire post)

*State or federal is irrelevant to constitutionality.*

To me this said the states are counties are not free to make laws that are federally unconstitutional. So what did you mean by that statement?


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

No, it just means that state laws can be found unconstitutional. You are just being contrary and aren't arguing for anything, simply trying to find fault in my statements or obfuscate my points. Rather than knee-jerk posting, stop and think about what point *you *are trying to make and if it has any basis.


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

Of course state laws can be found unconstitutional, but something that is unconstitutional for the federal government can be perfectly fine as a state law.

I'm not trying to be contrary, the statement I was arguing was short and to the point and to me it said something along the lines of ..if it is federally unconstitutional then it is unconstitutional for states also.

Is this not what you were saying?

My point is I don't think the federal government has the right to tell people that they have to buy a certian product. MA might have that right but I have never read their constitution or studied their laws (nor do I care to) but that is an issue for the good people of MA.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

but something that is unconstitutional for the federal government can be perfectly fine as a state law.

Now I understand why you used alcohol regulation as an example. That is a specific example where we passed an amendment to repeal an amendment and delegated alcohol control to the states. If the Federal govt wanted to again regulate alcohol, they would have to pass a new law in the form of an amendment repealing the 21st amendment and defining federal control of alcohol. But I not educated enough in law to know if your statement is definitionally true. Besides alcohol, what are some other examples?


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

We were just speaking slightly different languages, thats all.

The examples are few and far between since the 14th ammendment basically applied the bill of rights to the states also (as it should have) to keep the southern states from keeping slavery legal but just calling it something else. Many states have firearm laws that would be struck down no question if they were federal laws, however many of those are starting to be declared unconstitutional. Maryland recently had its requirement of "a good reason required" to have a concealed carry permit before one is issued stuck down, so what did they do, they deleted the application off the website so people cant submit one.

I do think one example is the provision for taxation being equal no matter where you live, ie federal tax rates are the same no matter what state you live in. In Maryland the state income tax varies depending on what county and what city you live in.

The opponents of the Bill of Rights when they were being drafted were not really against the rights, they just thought the rights were assumed and putting them in the Constitution would open the door to the governments in the furture to say oh if its not in the Constitution then you dont have that right, and that has actually been a true prediction almost from the start but is accelerating in recent years.

Since I graduated college, I became fascinated with the founding of the United States and the level of education and intellegence of some of the founders. Unfortunately it also made me realize how poor my public education was with regard to history and government. Before I was just dissappointed with how math, science and composition were taught, LOL.


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