# Miter issues



## BB1 (Jan 29, 2016)

After a period of time when I was feeling pretty good about making miters on my table saw I have run into a period where I just cannot seem to get the miters as "perfect" as I would like them to be.

This a picture of a frame that just didn't quite meet standards.









This picture is showing the issue I'm having where the edges will not match up.









Checking "straightness" 









The setup I use


----------



## BB1 (Jan 29, 2016)

Helpful info from splintergroup on my project post (where I first asked about miters):

"For the best miters, after setting the lengths and angles, I like to cut them long and then reset the stop block (used to control the length, referenced from the center of the bevel, not the tip) retrim the 45s so the cut is just a shaving (1/16" at most). Blades will deflect when cutting bevels into wood since the first blade contact is on one side of the blade only. This small deflection is enough to cause issues."

I had tried adjusting my stop block but maybe not by enough. Not sure if it is the hardness of the maple (also getting some burning). Will try again with this in mind.


----------



## Davevand (Feb 10, 2016)

Looks like blade deflection. Assuming your saw is still in alignment, I would bet either a dull saw blade or the blade is gummed up. If you are seeing burning I would say a dull blade


----------



## sawdust1whisperer (Nov 11, 2014)

It could be your blade deflection or alignment like Dave V said. I had the same problem so I went on line and found this YouTube video titled (Exact 90 degree miter sled and band saw safety cross cut sled by WWGOA) George V. does a great job explaining how this jig works.

Cut one miter on the left side of the jig and the joining miter on the right side of the jig. The two cuts will add up to 90 degrees.

I added a photo of one I built that I added toggle clamps to and a mitered frame I cut on it. It works great. 
If your going to make a lot of frames this jig could be helpful.

I hope this helps.

Best Regards,
James Mc.


----------



## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Leave the parts a hair long….clamp the joint together, then use a fine toothed back saw, and cut a kerf between the two parts…then check the gap….repeat for the other three corners….

or…









Use a different type of mitre saw….


----------



## Kazooman (Jan 20, 2013)

I think you are getting good advice. I also made a sled like James. Mine is high quality Baltic birch plywood with a set of adjustable width metal runners I bought at Woodcraft. It rides smoothly in the miter slots without any side to side or torsional movement. I used aluminum angles for the fences and took great pains to align them to the blade with a mechanical drawing 45/45/90 degree triangle. It works great.










I use a full kerf Forrest Woodworker @ blade. I have no references to cite, but it always seemed intuitive to me that a thin kerf blade would be more prone to the deflection Dave was concerned about.

Finally, if you want really accurate miters for frames, get a Lion miter trimmer. I bought a used one off Ebay and once adjusted it is amazing.

Note added: In other threads on this topic it has been pointed out that the length of the pieces is also critical. If the opposite parts are not exactly the same length it throws the mitered joint out. I usually address this whenever possible by taping the two pieces firmly together with blue painter's tape and cut them simultaneously.


----------



## Gene01 (Jan 5, 2009)

Might be time for a shooting board. With his wealth of planes, I'm surprised Bandit doesn't use one.


----------



## BB1 (Jan 29, 2016)

Thank you for all the great suggestions. I have seen the jig by George V and may look into building that. I'm guessing dull blade or deflection is part of my issue given my prior success…and burning on the more recent attempts with maple. I had looked at miter trimmers in the past and the price kept me from it. Had thought of making that an early Christmas present.  I'm pretty focused on the length issue as I know how vital that is (line up the pieces to ensure consistent. The back saw option is interesting (maybe too skill driven for me?).

Again THANK YOU for sharing all the helpful insights. Hopefully I'll have some successful frames to post….


----------



## builtinbkyn (Oct 29, 2015)

Not sure what you are using, but a clean sharp blade with a high tooth count helps too.


----------



## BB1 (Jan 29, 2016)

Using a Freud 50T full kerf combo blade. Haven't used it a lot since I last cleaned it (I use the CMT 2050). Probably need to take it in to get a check on sharpening (never have sharpened it).



> Not sure what you are using, but a clean sharp blade with a high tooth count helps too.
> 
> - builtinbkyn


----------



## Jim Jakosh (Nov 24, 2009)

From the third shot, it shows the blade is not cutting a straight line. Maybe there is pitch on it ( Easy off oven cleaner does a great job removing it). You might try raising or lowering the blade to see if that will give a different result or a newly sharpened blade, too.


----------



## BB1 (Jan 29, 2016)

I agree that it isn't straight. I'll have to see if I can get the blade sharpened. I have few days off over Thanksgiving so hopefully can get it figured out. Thanks for the added insights.



> From the third shot, it shows the blade is not cutting a straight line. Maybe there is pitch on it ( Easy off oven cleaner does a great job removing it). You might try raising or lowering the blade to see if that will give a different result or a newly sharpened blade, too.
> 
> - Jim Jakosh


----------



## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Looked more like the part had slipped abit, away from the blade, then was pushed back into the blade by what was pushing the jig through the saw….that is why I clamp the part in place…so it can't slip.


----------



## BB1 (Jan 29, 2016)

Felt like I was holding firmly…maybe some self adhesive sandpaper would help. Good point and another issue to consider.



> Looked more like the part had slipped abit, away from the blade, then was pushed back into the blade by what was pushing the jig through the saw….that is why I clamp the part in place…so it can t slip.
> 
> - bandit571


----------



## sawdust1whisperer (Nov 11, 2014)

BB there's another thing that maybe causing the slight curves on the ends of your cuts.
Your miter gauge may have some wobble or play in the miter slot. Mine did.

I wrapped it in metal tape and it solved the problem. If a full wrap is to much, remove the tape from one side.
I included 2 photos of mine.


















Hope this helps.


----------



## BB1 (Jan 29, 2016)

Thanks. I had looked at that but worth a second look. I can adjust the bar (not sure what the "adjusters" are called) to ensure a snug but smooth movement. Guessing a number of "little" errors are contributing and need to clean them all up to get back to a tight fitting miter.



> BB there's another thing that maybe causing the slight curves on the ends of your cuts.
> Your miter gauge may have some wobble or play in the miter slot. Mine did.
> 
> I wrapped it in metal tape and it solved the problem. If a full wrap is to much, remove the tape from one side.
> ...


----------



## Bonka (Apr 13, 2012)

I made a 45° shooting board and with a low angle jack plane I relived a lot of frustration.


----------



## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

I prioritize

Cant charge what u didnt accompish to the person who didnt sign up what u cant do

If life was easy u wouldnt pay taxes


----------



## northwoodsman (Feb 22, 2008)

I agree with bandit571, it looks like the piece(s) moved. That's usually the culprit when I have similar looking cuts. I sometimes even have that problem on 90° cuts if I don't have a good grip.


----------



## splintergroup (Jan 20, 2015)

Definite blade deflection with the last photo BB!

Hard maple is one of the most difficult. The slight "dip" on the same side (entrance cut I assume?) of both pieces is common.

Another "trick" is to set your stop block for sides that are about 0.060" long. This extra amount probably does not really matter for a picture frame as long as the opposite sides are equal. Make your first cuts then follow up with trim cuts by placing one of those "fake" credit cards you get in junk mail between the stop and workpiece. (these are typically 0.030" thick, perfect amount for a trim cut). Flip the piece end for end and repeat with two cards installed.

Advance into the cut slowly, but try to keep the cut speed constant. Areas during trim cuts where there is burning indicate where the blade is not cutting, just rubbing.


----------



## sawdust1whisperer (Nov 11, 2014)

I agree with Splinter, if you don't own a miter jig.
I cut this frame for a painting I'd did with my jig. No gaps on over 5 5/16" on all 4 corners
of this frame made from QSWO.








The adjustable toggle clamps prevent the piece from moving.


----------



## BB1 (Jan 29, 2016)

I felt like I was holding the piece firmly against the miter gauge…but definitely a step to review as I agree that's what it looks like. Maybe the maple hardness along with a slip in technique was the issue. Hope to get some shop time later this week to see if I can return to the place of "good miters" again. I really appreciate all the insights.

And James - that frame is really an eye catcher!


----------



## sawdust1whisperer (Nov 11, 2014)

Thanks BB1. All of your frames catch my eye. Happy frame building and May you have a joyous Thanks Giving!


----------



## BB1 (Jan 29, 2016)

Frustrating morning (again). Have cleaned my blade, rechecked the 45. Couldn't get results I wanted with my miter guage so shifted to this jig I bought years ago.









And pulled out a wider board…all ok.









But when I try my new hickory right back to the gap. 


















Had hoped to get some gifts done but no way I can give gappy frames to anyone. Frustrating to have had success for a time and now this. Guess I need to stop and build the jig noted above from George V (I think I have the build on a video)


----------



## BB1 (Jan 29, 2016)

Frustrating morning (again). Have cleaned my blade, rechecked the 45. Couldn't get results I wanted with my miter guage so shifted to this jig I bought years ago.









And pulled out a wider board…all ok.









But when I try my new hickory right back to the gap. 


















Had hoped to get some gifts done but no way I can give gappy frames to anyone. Frustrating to have had success for a time and now this. Guess I need to stop and build the jig noted above from George V (I think I have the build on a video)

Edit: 
Current status of the maple frame. Creative routing may save the day


----------



## splintergroup (Jan 20, 2015)

When cutting the miter the way shown with the Rockler jig, the blade will tend to pull the workpiece away from the stop block. In this case you need both the stop block and a clamp (with a good grippy fence surface).
It still looks like you are either getting workpiece motion or blade deflection during the cut.

Hickory is an unpleasant wood to cut, tough and stringy


----------



## MPython (Nov 30, 2018)

A shooting board with a sharp low angle plane will fix that problem in a heartbeat. It's the only woodworking device I know of that allows one to adjust in thousandths of an inch.


----------



## Bonka (Apr 13, 2012)

MPython: Yes, a shooting board is the only sure way to go with the least effort. I sweated 45°'s for years until I figured out the proponent's of shooting boards knew what they were talking about.


----------



## BB1 (Jan 29, 2016)

I cut some walnut and seemed much better (very dry wood so cuts nicely). I made sure my belt was "tight" as it bogged down on few rip cuts. I pulled my blade and cleaned but after more frustation, removed the blade to bring in for sharpening. I agree that I likely need to get a method for fine tuning (e.g., shooting board, miter cutter). Prior success has made me stubborn on getting this to work. Wood selection in prior projects included walnut and poplar which are likely "easier" than the maple and hickory (although I do have a hickory frame with spot on miters?!?): 









Greatly appreciate all the suggestions.


----------

