# Thinning shellac in California?



## MakerDP (Jul 2, 2019)

How are Californians thinning shellac nowadays seeing as how denatured alcohol is now a banned substance here? And please don't say drive to a neighboring state and buy some there. That's just not an option for me. I tried a general Google search and the only thing I could come up with was arguments about whether or not isopropyl alcohol is a suitable thinner for shellac in general, so I am very confused.

I joined this forum just so I could ask this… lol. But, I have read many posts here that helped me along the way and have learned a great deal from you all.


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## bondogaposis (Dec 18, 2011)

Go to the liquor store and buy Everclear.


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## CaptainKlutz (Apr 23, 2014)

Best solvent for shellac is and always has been ethanol alcohol, not methanol alcohol.

Problem is 99.9% technical grade (or 200 proof) is only sold at laboratory supply, and 95% pure grade called 190 proof grain alcohol is hard to find at many liqueur stores. Another issue is due alcohol consumption taxes, it is most expensive shellac solvent to procure.

Question: Is the Kleen Strip 'Green' denatured alcohol sold in CA?
It is the low VOC version of denatured alcohol.
http://www.kleanstrip.com/product/green-denatured-alcohol

Behlen also sells Behokol, which is a blend of ethanol and couple of slow evaporation alcohols that help shellac flow out evenly. Can you get it shipped to CA from online source?

Reference: https://www.shellac.net/alcohol.html

Best Luck.


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## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

I would say you need to just experiment with some alternatives. If the online information regarding Isopropyl is fuzzy, then buy some and try it (on scrap, not on a project). Everclear is a good possibility too. It's 190 proof (95% alcohol) where DNA is Ethanol (pure alcohol) with additives to make it non-potable. After the additives, it is probably roughly the same % alcohol as Everclear.

DNA is kind of an irresponsible product to begin with if you ask me. You take pure alcohol and intentionally add poison to it all in the name of taxation.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

Good question. I have a pretty new quart of it, but will need to find something eventually. I'm guessing some smaller shops probably still have some in stock. Maybe I should just stock up.


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## MakerDP (Jul 2, 2019)

> Best solvent for shellac is and always has been ethanol alcohol, not methanol alcohol.
> 
> Problem is 99.9% technical grade (or 200 proof) is only sold at laboratory supply, and 95% pure grade called 190 proof grain alcohol is hard to find at many liqueur stores. Another issue is due alcohol consumption taxes, it is most expensive shellac solvent to procure.
> ...
> - CaptainKlutz


Thanks I will look into those products.

Unfortunately, Everclear is not an option. It has been a banned substance here far longer than DNA.


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## MakerDP (Jul 2, 2019)

Well the Woodcraft website says "Not available to ship to California" for the "Green" DNA… so strike one on that.


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## PineChopper (May 21, 2012)

Questions like this make me so happy I moved out of that ********************Hole state years ago.


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## MakerDP (Jul 2, 2019)

Don't get me started… I really don't want this to turn into a political thread though, but I hear you.


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## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

> Questions like this make me so happy I moved out of that ********************Hole state years ago.
> 
> - PineChopper


That's just silly pine chopper. We all know that sh!+ isn't allowed in the state of California because it is a known carcinogen in .000013% of the wooly bearded jellyfish that migrate past the state every 18th year in November.


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## MakerDP (Jul 2, 2019)

Hmm… what about this?
https://www.mohawk-finishing.com/mhk_cds/product_msds/M650-0057.pdf


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> We all know that sh!+ isn t allowed in the state of California …
> 
> - HokieKen


Unless it's on the sidewalk in LA or SF.


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## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

> Hmm… what about this?
> https://www.mohawk-finishing.com/mhk_cds/product_msds/M650-0057.pdf
> 
> - MakerDP


That appears to just be DNA with butanol added. Not sure what the purpose of the butanol is but I'd say it's worth a shot if that's still legal for you to buy!


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## CaptainKlutz (Apr 23, 2014)

> where DNA is Ethanol (pure alcohol) with additives to make it non-potable. After the additives, it is probably roughly the same % alcohol as Everclear.
> - HokieKen


Sorry, but this statement is NOT always true in today's greedy low VOC EPA mandated world?

Need to carefully check the MSDS/SDS on denatured alcohol (DNA) when you buy it.
Methanol alcohol is cheaper, and many home store brands use 40%+ methanol.

Here is Kleen strip DNA ingredients, with 50-55% methanol:








.
Here is Crown DNA, it shows 70-75% methanol alcohol:







.
.
Here is the green low VOC ingredient list, with 3-7% methanol:








.
BTW - the ethyl acetate and or MIBK is used as stabilizer. It extends shelf life and prevents reaction with metal cans.

The use of so much methanol is one reason that standard off the shelf DNA is not very good at dissolving shellac flakes. But the standard stuff works for diluting premixed shellac, as it also has a blend of solvents.

Using the 'green' version DNA gives much better results using flake shellac.

PS - if you live in hot dry place like I do in Arizona, adding about 10-15% of 99.9% pure tech grade isopropanol alcohol (not the 80-90% stuff found in drug store) helps slow evaporation and aids flow out. (added after ethanol completely dissolved the flakes) I even keep some really slow evaporating n-butyl alcohol on hand when need to use shellac when it's 100F in shop.

PPS - Knowing your alcohols is important when you hang around with a bunch of chemical engineers that serve ethanol blended drinks are parties. :-(0)

YMMV


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## MakerDP (Jul 2, 2019)

OK so what if all I really wanted to do is thin out the cans of Zinsser and not mix my own? It looks like I can't get that Mohawk stuff either.

Would the highest % isopropyl I can buy at the drug store work ok for that?


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## bndawgs (Oct 21, 2016)

this reminds me that i have some everclear in the liquor cabinet that i should make some jungle juice with.


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## CaptainKlutz (Apr 23, 2014)

> OK so what if all I really wanted to do is thin out the cans of Zinsser and not mix my own? It looks like I can t get that Mohawk stuff either.
> 
> Would the highest % isopropyl I can buy at the drug store work ok for that?
> 
> - MakerDP


No. It has too much water in it, and prevent absorption of shellac into wood.

BTW - DNA is not 'banned' in CA. 
It is only banned for sale to individuals who do not possess proper permits.
Which means average homeowner can't get it from hardware store any more.

Yes, I am being specific on definition for a reason.
If you have a valid CalEPA permit, you can but most any solvent including alcohol.
Getting a permit is royal PIA: 
https://www.calrecycle.ca.gov/SWFacilities/Permitting/CEQA/

But if your use is less than XX (100?) lbs of permitted solvent per year, the requirements are lower and within reach of individual. The challenge is paperwork, and costs of permitted waste disposal. Anyone can afford solvent waste pails, and flammable storage cabinet. But it costs anywhere from $750 to $1000 to have a single 55 gal drum of combustible waste hauled away and disposed of by licensed HAZMAT processor. Which you are required to do, when you have a permit. 

Wood finishing folks are not only people having issues. Anyone attempting to spray paint cars from home shop has similar 'banned' solvent issues. There are a bunch of others as well.

Which leads me some suggested solutions:

1) Find an online lab supply that does not require CalEPA or federal EPA permit numbers for small quantity chemical shipments, and order tech grade solvents. They exist, if you look around the web. The solvents will be more expensive than a can at BORG, but you can get them.
BTW - Just don't attempt to buy anything on the Federal Homeland Security list of restricted materials, I.E. drug making, explosive making, etc).

2) Find a permitted facility and use their permits to cover your activity. 
- Big corporations frown upon you using their EPA permits for home projects, but it can be done as long you don't get caught, or have understanding management. Most suppliers require shipments to be delivered to permit holders address, so don't try to ship stuff home on corporate permit. BTDTGTTS
- Small companies have more lenient permits due lower usage volumes. If you have a friend that owns, runs, manages inside a small company with EPA permit; ask them if you can piggy back some solvents on their permit. If you want to find a list of permit holders in your area, it is on the CalEPA site.

Note that if you do this: technically you are required to recycle any solvent contaminated waste materials via permit requirements. Some really small folks are allowed to use standard solid waste (hehe). But then so are you once the solvents have completely evaporated.

Note: I am not suggesting you break EPA laws. Violations can result in massive fines, and even jail time after lengthy legal trial. What I am saying is there are ways to follow the EPA laws, and occasionally they might step upon a grey area of the regulations? 

How do I know this? Try making pyrotechnic devices in Peoples Republic of Kalifornia.
You have no idea the complexity of EPA laws until you make something that goes boom, shipping weight of 50lbs, and it is full of various poisons. YIKES!! BTDTGTTS

YMMV


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## MakerDP (Jul 2, 2019)

.... so in other words…. I'm SOL??? After all that I'm not sure I even want to risk bringing it in the next time I go to visit family in another state.

Should I just live with Zinsser at full-strength (don't really want to do that) or switch to another easy-ish finish like wipe-on poly? I have experimented with Tru Oil on a couple of projects and really like the results but that's for much smaller coverage areas. It would be a LOT of work to use it on larger pieces unless there is an easier way than rub it in hard in many (like 11 to 13) light coats.

And then there's the subject of mixing up a batch of aniline dye… I prefer alcohol to water but at least water is a viable option here.


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## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

So is it illegal to posses DNA or illegal to sell it to non-permitted persons? I know that logic would suggest that if one is illegal, so is the other. But that's not necessarily so. In other words, you purchasing it out of state and bringing it back home may be perfectly legal. Even if it's not, that's what I would do.

Alternatively, maybe you can have someone mail you Zissner's every now and then that they cut first?


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## CaptainKlutz (Apr 23, 2014)

> .... so in other words…. I m SOL??? After all that I m not sure I even want to risk bringing it in the next time I go to visit family in another state.
> - MakerDP


SOL? Maybe if you are not willing to try alternate sources?

If you want to use DNA banned for personal use at home, you have to either follow EPA law and get a permit, or skirt around the laws one of several ways already mentioned. 
With a permit number (your's or some else's), you can drive down the street to local lab supply house, and bring home a case of gallons of alcohol.

BTW - will Amazon ship lab grade DNA to CA?
https://www.amazon.com/Laboratory-Grade-Denatured-Ethyl-Alcohol-95/dp/B07Q23H8P4

As I said before, there are small volume exemptions (shipping) for lab grade materials, and these might allow supplier to ship a locally banned solvent to your door without raising any concern for contents. 
For any of these options, YOU will have to search and find what avenue works for you.

Best Luck.


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## CWWoodworking (Nov 28, 2017)

What do you use shellac for? Depending on the use, there might be a better product anyway.


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## CaptainKlutz (Apr 23, 2014)

> So is it illegal to posses DNA or illegal to sell it to non-permitted persons?
> - HokieKen


Haven't read the latest CA rules on alcohol, but for the other industrial solvents that CA 'banned' from home use in past; the rules are that only an CalEPA permitted facility may buy, store, or use regulated hazardous substances; unless there is exemption granted. So unless home is permitted facility, is it technically banned.

But many small shops have permits, that are nothing more than an exemption since they use amounts to small to monitor and control.

I know of many amateur pyro's in CA, that have permit covering back yard area with picnic table for making stuff, with a small storage shed full of regulated materials next to it. If you want regulated materials at home, it can happen. Just have to read, and follow the rules. LOL

It's all about controlling and taxing how environment is contaminated, not stopping it.
Materials are never really 'banned'. 
What happens is the cost of storage, usage, air discharge, and disposal, gets so high; you can't afford to use them unless there is absolutely no other choice on planet.

Cheers!


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## ArtMann (Mar 1, 2016)

You could not be more wrong! The City of San Francisco refuses to stop the homeless from leaving it all over their city streets.


> We all know that sh!+ isn t allowed in the state of California . . .
> 
> - HokieKen


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

After looking at SDS of big box brands like kleenstrip, seems like vodka has about the same %.


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## shipwright (Sep 27, 2010)

Denatured alcohol is not available in Canada either. I have used and in some applications prefer isopropanol which is readily available. I have used it for both brushing and French polishing and find it excellent. You still need to be sure it is 99% pure however. The best source I have found for large volumes (gallons) has been feed stores who sell it as horse liniment.
Methanol is faster than ethanol and totally useless. Isopropanol is a little slower and as such flows a little better but still dries very quickly.
Try it, you'll like it.


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## MakerDP (Jul 2, 2019)

> What do you use shellac for? Depending on the use, there might be a better product anyway.
> 
> - CWWoodworking


Great question. I like shellac just because it is super easy to work with. I am a fan of the thin it way down and slop on multiple coats with a brush method. Level sand if required. I like how it looks over dyed figured wood and really like the amber over torched pine.

i am not a fan of the "high gloss" look. Shellac is about right.

For small areas, Tru Oil is nice for finishing guitars and decorative fronts of guitar amps. I have not experimented with other oils like BLO but Tru Oil is basically that.

I was going to use shellac on my next large project of building a pair of barn doors for covering up a large 60" wide opening in the entryway of our house into our library, which can get messy from time to time and we also want to use it as a guest room from time to time. Also was probably going to use it for some plywood garage cabinets.

I've never really worked with wipe-on Poly… can I get good results with that or is it brush on or don't bother?


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

What do climbers and hikers burn in their cook stoves? I thought it was DNA, but could be something else. Or just small enough quantity to be allowed?


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## MakerDP (Jul 2, 2019)

> Denatured alcohol is not available in Canada either. I have used and in some applications prefer isopropanol which is readily available. I have used it for both brushing and French polishing and find it excellent. You still need to be sure it is 99% pure however. The best source I have found for large volumes (gallons) has been feed stores who sell it as horse liniment.
> Methanol is faster than ethanol and totally useless. Isopropanol is a little slower and as such flows a little better but still dries very quickly.
> Try it, you ll like it.
> 
> - shipwright


Thanks for that tip! There are a bazillion feed stores around me here in the heart of Central California.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

What do climbers and hikers burn in their cook stoves? I thought it was DNA, but could be something else. Or just small enough quantity to be allowed?


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

.


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## rad457 (Jun 15, 2013)

Guess that explains why L.V. is back ordered on there Shellac thinner? Thanks Paul, think we have some of them horse stores in this area?


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## therealSteveN (Oct 29, 2016)

> Questions like this make me so happy I moved out of that ********************Hole state years ago.
> 
> - PineChopper
> 
> ...


Possibly the most accurate appraisal of that place.

I imagine like liquor in dry counties in Kentucky, it comes in unmarked containers. Knowing what I know about Cali, I'd think it's readily available at the Flee Market. I know the pest is a flea, flee market was what I wanted to do the one time I was dragged to one out there. They should rename them as a law free zone.


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## CaptainKlutz (Apr 23, 2014)

> Methanol is faster than ethanol and totally useless. Isopropanol is a little slower and as such flows a little better but still dries very quickly.
> Try it, you ll like it.
> - shipwright


FWIW - 
Besides medical supplies, Tech grade Isopropanol is sold at electronics stores as cleaning agent. 
Fry's Electronics sells quarts.



> What do climbers and hikers burn in their cook stoves? I thought it was DNA, but could be something else. Or just small enough quantity to be allowed?
> 
> - ibewjon


backpacking stoves use either: 
- sealed canisters filled with butane/propane
- white gas
- unleaded gas

Cheers!


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## shipwright (Sep 27, 2010)

> Guess that explains why L.V. is back ordered on there Shellac thinner? Thanks Paul, think we have some of them horse stores in this area?
> 
> - Andre


Probably a lot more than we have on the Island.


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

OK, I've had a gallon of DNA for a some number of months, but haven't been into a hardware store in the last 5 weeks because of foot surgery. I see that my local LOWES still sells DNA, though.


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## therealSteveN (Oct 29, 2016)

> backpacking stoves use either:
> - sealed canisters filled with butane/propane
> - white gas
> - unleaded gas
> ...


By far the number one selling fuel for backpackers is called ISOPRO. The company has a complete line of ultralight, super high efficient burner tops that work on their fuel pods..

ISOPRO is made up of 20% propane and 80% isobutane. Even the small pods will burn long enough to cook for 2 or 3 people for a week. That level of efficient heat has never been had by other compounds. The reason it's #1 I would think. Costs aren't too high either for that efficiency, low weight and overall size. What ya bring in, ya gotta carry, that is the rule.

ISOPRO and a simple burner top.# LOML uses this one, her pot/skillet is 5" diameter, sits steadily in a wind.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

The extreme of "this and everything else is known by the experts of the state of California to cause the moon to explode" aside, it sounds like time to set up a still, and to make some fellow shellac fan friends.


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## MakerDP (Jul 2, 2019)

> Methanol is faster than ethanol and totally useless. Isopropanol is a little slower and as such flows a little better but still dries very quickly.
> Try it, you ll like it.
> - shipwright
> 
> ...


I do love a good excuse to drive to the bay area and visit Fry's. Hmm… $12 a quart though. Most stores are sold out. That puts a quart of thinned Zinsser at about $75 to $100 a gallon or so? It would be a lot cheaper to mix my own I guess.


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## MakerDP (Jul 2, 2019)

> The extreme of "this and everything else is known by the experts of the state of California to cause the moon to explode" aside, it sounds like time to set up a still, and to make some fellow shellac fan friends.
> 
> - Kelly


Don't think that thought hasn't crossed my mind… lol.


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## badcrayon (Jun 1, 2013)

Have you tried a. camping store ? Most commercial stove fuel is denatured alcohol.


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## MakerDP (Jul 2, 2019)

So, the long and short of it guys is that anything over 151 proof (75%) and anything that is "denatured alcohol" no matter how they label it, is not available to the general consumer here.

Unfortunately, my short list of options seems to be…
1) get it from another state on the rare occasions I am traveling out of state
2) distill my own (actually a LEGAL possibility with a federal alternative fuels permit but probably WAY too much trouble than it's worth)
3) try and get some via a licensed third-party. Again, way too much trouble. I have zero connections here.
4) try and get some of that stuff at Fry's or another electronics supply house, but again, a lot of trouble to go through and pretty darn expensive
5) try and find something at a farm/feed supply store

Maybe I can just find a local shop who can legally mix their own to sell me some pre-mixed shellac.


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## CaptainKlutz (Apr 23, 2014)

> I do love a good excuse to drive to the bay area and visit Fry s. Hmm… $12 a quart though. Most stores are sold out. That puts a quart of thinned Zinsser at about $75 to $100 a gallon or so? It would be a lot cheaper to mix my own I guess.
> - MakerDP


LOL, if you need a lot of IPA, and it's not banned for shipment to CA; as much as I hate to suggest Ama-dud;
can get 5 gal pail for less than $100, or about $6.25 a quart. This is similar to what I pay for Kleen Strip Green DNA I use for thinning shellac?
https://www.amazon.com/Isopropyl-Alcohol-Grade-Anhydrous-gallon/dp/B01MEGQ9Q0
Gallons sell for $28- $30.



> sounds like time to set up a still, and to make some fellow shellac fan friends.
> - Kelly


Hmm?
Get about 2 gallons of ~15% alcohol 'mash' from a 20lb bag of sugar, costing ~$20; plus ~$5 of turbo yeast.
Distilled that produces ~38oz (just over a quart) of 200 proof alcohol.
Grain mash is about 2/3 cost of pure sugar alcohol. Maybe a little less if you have a free source for damaged fruit (apples, peaches, pears, anything with high sugar content).

That's $15-25 per quart of ethanol, Plus cost of pot still, cooling water, cooking fuel, AND felony charge/fines for producing alcohol illegally for sale to friends. 
While possible, distillation is not going to be a cheaper solution. 

YMMV


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## MakerDP (Jul 2, 2019)

OK well thanks for all the input guys, but the picture is still muddy… extremely unclear.

Anecdotal suggestions of things to try are not helpful, they only further cloud the issue. I was pretty sure there would be cold hard facts about what to do in California out there but apparently nobody actually has those. I can't find any definitive answers anywhere.

I just don't think all the trouble is worth it. It may be for some, but not for me.


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## CaptainKlutz (Apr 23, 2014)

> OK well thanks for all the input guys, but the picture is still muddy… extremely unclear.
> .
> .
> I just don t think all the trouble is worth it. It may be for some, but not for me.
> - MakerDP


Nothing 'Anecdotal' about suggested alternatives, sources offered, or how to use regulated solvents in CA?
Color me insulted.

What is all the trouble? 
Calling/Visiting a store to see if they carry 99% IPA?
There are a ton of places to get it. Did you try to find any?
R.S. Hughes Co., Inc. has a bunch of CA stores and sells the TechSpray brand of 99% IPA as flux cleaner.
Green Products in Richmond, CA sells if for cleaning: https://greenproductsco.net/
NuGenTec MAKES IPA in Emeryville, CA near Oakland?

Summary is no 'trouble':

1) DNA can still be found on shelf in some CA home stores and will be until they sell out. Find one or maybe try an Ace or True Value Hardware store and get some while you can. You have 3 years to use it up, before it requires CalEPA license to use at home.

2) Banning of DNA has been resolved with IPA as substitute, sources have been provided.

Clarity achieved.

unwatch


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

Paul's (Shipwright) tip was worth reading the entire thread. In fact not only did I find a substitute (Isopropanol horse liniment) even though I don't need one in TX but might be a better option than DNA anyway. Definitely worth a try.


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## Finn (May 26, 2010)

I have used Ammonia to thin shellac with success. Glad i moved from California in 2001.


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

Who cares if the liberals in California take away Denatured Alcohol. It's not going to stop me or anyone who's determined to use it. Everyone who moved away from California to their utopia gimme a break all states have stupid rules and laws. 
If I have to make my own moonshine so be it. It's all part of the craft 
When the gets narrowed you just play the hand your dealt.
I don't think I'd try Ammonia it's too nasty. Plus it cuts through shellac so fast I wouldn't be surprised if it destroys it.
Good Luck to everyone


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

If they criminilize DNA only criminals will use DNA. Kind of sucks that I have to sit in traffic for 2 hours in pothole filled roads past gross polluting factory farms, get out of my car and then walk over 35 typhus infested homeless tents to get to the hardware store just to find out that the priority was outlawing rubbing alcohol. Shrug…


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## TDSpade (Oct 14, 2011)

I have been following this thread as I live in Cottonwood Ca. I went to lowe's in Redding Ca today for other reasons, but I thought I would check on the DNA situation. And the shelves were bare of DNA.

Redding also has a Home Depot, so out of curiosity I went there to see what they had. They had DNA, so I bought 2 gallons. I already had almost 2 full gallons so this should last me for awhile. Are they just selling out what they have? Or will they continue to carry it, only time will tell.

Lowe's usually carries Crown brand DNA, it has glass cleaner printed on the label.

Home Depot carries Clean Strip DNA, it has fuel printed on the label.

Is labeling the difference between being able to sell the DNA in Ca.?

I have used both brands interchangeably without a second thought. And I never had a problem doing so.

Another thought is, in California some thing are only banned in certain zip codes. Due I think to population density.

I have noticed when I have ordered certain "hazardous materials" from Amazon, they will have a disclaimer stating something to the effect this item cannot be shipped to all zip codes in Ca. But they have always shipped to me so far.

My two cents worth of input.
Terry


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## PineChopper (May 21, 2012)

It might be easier to take a vacation to another state and buy a few gallons of denatured alcohol.


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## xeddog (Mar 2, 2010)

My local Home Despot and Lowes no longer carry DNA in their paint department. But I went to ACE hardware and bought a gallon of "Alcohol Fuel".


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## Finn (May 26, 2010)

i bet Vodka would work.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> i bet Vodka would work.
> 
> - Jim Finn


Probably too much water in vodka. Some pros use Everclear, or any brand of pure grain alcohol, even in areas where they can get DNA. It's the cleanest formulation you can get and some real purists claim it makes a superior shellac.

I first heard about it over 20 years ago on a show called Furniture to Go. The show's finisher, Joe L'Erario, mentioned it was the best solvent for shellac.


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## Kazooman (Jan 20, 2013)

I think you need to watch a few episodes of the Moonshiners series on cable. Get yourself a sheet of copper to make a still head, some corn, some sugar, and a cool stream and you would be in business. If you can rustle up a friend named "Jim Bob" who wears bib overalls that would be even better.


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## WoodES (Oct 8, 2013)

I was at the orange box in the greater Sacramento area on Monday and found FUEL Denatured Alcohol in the paint department solvent section and promptly bought a gallon. When I compared it to the can I had the packaging was the same except for large letters FUEL….

Try again, maybe you can purchase the clean burning fuel.


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## Axis39 (Jul 3, 2019)

I'm a woodworker who just moved to California… I went to find a thinner for my shellac and was kinda weirded out when I found out it wasn't available in California. Can't buy Everclear, or anything with a high enough alcohol content, in the stores here either.

I did order some DNA online, but it was expensive (compared to what I'm used to, anyway). I like the idea of the 5 gallon Isopropyl. Seems the cheapest alternative.


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

I've always used DNA. I'll have to look at Lowes (I'm also in California) again. I think that they still have it.


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## Tony1212 (Aug 26, 2013)

Most places I go (big box and local hardware stores around the Chicago, IL area) sell Sunnyside products. Their DNA packaging says "Alcohol Appliance and Marine Stove Fuel" with a picture of a camp stove.

I always thought it was a bit weird because that doesn't seem to be the primary use of DNA, nor did many of those stores sell camp/marine stoves, and it was sold in the paint section right next to paint thinner. I guess that's how they try to get around the CA laws.


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

Lowes doesn't have it and neither does Woodcraft in Ventura. REI claims to be carrying it, but they get $8 a quart. There's a medical chemical company local, I'll give them a try.


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## WoodES (Oct 8, 2013)

Interesting side note, I was in another HD over the weekend and found the DNA on the shelf. However, I haven't been able to find in on the website, even when I put the item number from the shelf tag in the HD website for a search while I was in the store…

I paid about $16 for a gallon, so the $8/qt isn't far off.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

$8 per at is only $32 per gal, so it is double.


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## Wintergreen78 (Feb 11, 2019)

Now I am really curious. I just looked at the last several year's worth of CARB rule makings and didn't see anything obvious that would be a statewide ban on denatured alcohol. For the OP, do you live in the LA area? SCAQMD usually has stricter limits than the rest of the state.

I don't live in the LA area, and I bought some denatured alcohol earlier this year. I'll have to look the next time I go to the store and see what is available where I live.

Edit: actually, now I see that CARB has started doing workshops on a bunch of products. They are asking for input on denatured alcohol. This is early enough in the process that they haven't proposed a rule for it. In my experience with these things, if groups from small-scale users show up, show that they have some special need for something, and show that the other alternatives don't work, they can usually get provisions put into rules.

Here's the link to the CARB page: https://ww3.arb.ca.gov/consprod/regact/regact.htm


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## Axis39 (Jul 3, 2019)

I am in Beaumont (East of LA by about an hour and a half, or so). I've checked Lowes and Home Depot in the Coachella Valley, Banning and Hemet. I've checked the Rockler in Ontario, and I think I checked in Woodcraft in Anaheim when I was there. None had DNA, stove fuel, etc.

It also seems California doesn't do the Everclear thing, either.

I did order some green DNA from Amazon, and it arrived. But, it was expensive. So, I also continue to seek alternatives.


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## Humboltcarving (Feb 19, 2020)

Don't think I read this in a post but TW&M has Everclear but Ca put a max of 120 proof I'm testing on different shellac's to see how it reacts.


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## rustfever (May 3, 2009)

I have been told the sale of DNA is restricted [banned] in SOME California, [but not all], 'Air Quality Control Districts''.
My local Tru-Value hardware store stocks it.


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## Wintergreen78 (Feb 11, 2019)

I can't get denatured alcohol at the hardware store any more. However, camping and boating stores sell denatured alcohol as stove fuel. Since I only use about a quart every few months for hobby use, I just get it there. If you do this professionally or go through larger volumes, you'd probably need to find a different option.


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## Finn (May 26, 2010)

I have used ammonia to thin shellac with good results. It would not suprise me to find out that it is also banned in Calif. ( Glad I left Calf. in 2001)


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## Humboltcarving (Feb 19, 2020)

Another side note it is considered denatured alcohol as a whole. But if you look at the MSDS sheet it shows a higher methanol content.


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## shampeon (Jun 3, 2012)

It's worth noting that the air quality board didn't specifically ban DNA, it limited a class of ozone causing volatiles in high air pollution districts. The industry then decided that they could live without DNA being sold in e.g. LA to meet the standards.

I can still get DNA in my local hardware store in the Bay Area.


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## Phil32 (Aug 31, 2018)

> What do climbers and hikers burn in their cook stoves? I thought it was DNA, but could be something else. Or just small enough quantity to be allowed?
> 
> - ibewjon


We haven't used alcohol stove for years. Most use white gasoline (Coleman fuel).


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## xeddog (Mar 2, 2010)

> I can still get DNA in my local hardware store in the Bay Area.
> 
> - shampeon


I am in East ContraCosta county and my local Lowes , and I think Home Despot, no longer carry DNA. I have to go to Ace hardware and buy Alcohol Fuel.

Wayne


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## maxyedor (Jul 6, 2017)

Had no idea DNA was banned, no wonder I can't find any, I guess I'll stock up in Vegas next month.



> .... so in other words…. I m SOL??? After all that I m not sure I even want to risk bringing it in the next time I go to visit family in another state.


Basically every auto paint and body shop in Ventura County has shelves full of paint and solvents they brought in from AZ, all bought "before they were banned", I'm sure…

I know several people in the automotive restoration industry, and they've all been cited for a plethora of violations, but never possession of a banned solvent.

I wouldn't sweat it.


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## Wintergreen78 (Feb 11, 2019)

> It s worth noting that the air quality board didn t specifically ban DNA, it limited a class of ozone causing volatiles in high air pollution districts. The industry then decided that they could live without DNA being sold in e.g. LA to meet the standards.
> 
> I can still get DNA in my local hardware store in the Bay Area.
> 
> - shampeon


Hey - it sounds like you understand this better than I do. I was a little confused when I looked at the requirements. I did a quick read through the SCAQMD solvents and coating rule, and didn't clearly see anything that Had had changed in the last few years to outright ban DNA. I definitely didn't see anything in the CARB rule that would apply state-wide. Our local Air District hasn't changed the solvents and coating rules in a while, so I was kind of surprised when DNA disappeared from our hardware stores. All of the wholesale suppliers for our area are probably based in LA, so I assumed it was because they didn't want to keep separate inventory for their smaller markets.


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## jackj (2 mo ago)

CaptainKlutz said:


> No. It has too much water in it, and prevent absorption of shellac into wood.
> 
> BTW - DNA is not 'banned' in CA.
> It is only banned for sale to individuals who do not possess proper permits.
> ...


I've made lots of pyro devices in CA but then I did the work to get my pyro license . Yeah lots of laws and rules .On the other hand I learned a lot and worked safely for years . I did live in Georga 40 years ago and back then anyone could get whatever they wanted . In hindsight I did some ignorant things. I got lucky and I'm still here and have 10 fingers to play the guitars I've made . I too wish I could get some DNA. I love using shellac The way I put it " you can buy any product you want in California as long as you can drink it, snort it, of squirt in your eyes ."


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