# fluorescent bulb change 18' above the floor



## Rob_s (Sep 12, 2016)

The lights in my shop consists of 16 double-bulb, 4 ft long, fluorescent light fixtures for a total of 32 bulbs. Most of them are out, or on their last legs. What's stumping me is the easiest way to change them out at the lowest cost. I know I can rent a scissor lift and go that route, but that will entail either taking the trailer to pick it up, or paying to have it delivered and picked up, and I'm hoping there's an easier way.

I know that there are all sorts of pole-style devices for changing screw-in bulbs in high ceilings, with suction cups and the like, so I'm hoping there's some method of changing these bulbs I haven't thought of or am not aware of.

any suggestions?


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## 01ntrain (Jun 21, 2015)

I'd probably just do the scissor lift method. You may have some ballasts that are bad, as well….

We tried those suction-cup things in our maintenance shop years ago, they didn't work very well, or at all.


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

Rent a scaffold. I'd probably go with a scissor lift first depending on price.


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## joey502 (Mar 30, 2014)

I would also rent a lift. The lift would be much safer than any other option i can see.


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## nightguy (Aug 2, 2016)

Check into a service that does that and has there one lift and do some cost comparison, your time, your danger, ext.


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## Finn (May 26, 2010)

A step ladder will do the trick.

At a shop, that I worked in, once, every year or two they would use a roll around scaffold to access the many light fixtures. They replaced all the lamps and cleaned all the reflectors. This kept the shop well lighted.


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## woodbutcherbynight (Oct 21, 2011)

Consider converting the fixtures to LED's. You would have no more ballast to worry with and they supposedly last longer. I bought some here LINK

At the time they were on sale for 39.99 for four, I see they have since gone up so maybe shop around. Like anything else they have pros and cons. The light is very bright straight down but they are a single row with none pointed at an angle so about a foot down from the top you get shadows. I only have a 12 foot ceiling so changing them was fairly easy. Not difficult once you do the first fixture. They do have a 1 to 2 second delay if that is a concern. Here are two pics


















If you stay with the others get lift and be safe. Nigtguy had a good idea of checking to see if you can get them serviced cheaper. If you had to replace a couple of ballast would be a time and back saver.


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## Rob_s (Sep 12, 2016)

Re: LEDs, I've considered it but I'm not sure the juice is worth the squeeze. Among other things, the bulb life increase isn't as great going from fluorescents to LED as going from incandescent to LED, and the18' distance from floor seems to mean I'll need a special (more expensive) version of the fixture. Not to mention, with 16 fixtures to replace its going to get even more expensive, even at $40/ea.

I *think* I could do this from a 16' stepladder, since I figure I only need to get my feet up 12' off the floor or so for the 18' fixtures, I just really don't like the idea of being balanced up there trying to fiddle with something overhead.

I was hoping to avoid the scissor lift precisely because I'm afraid I'll get stuck replacing ballasts as well and then I'll be on the hook for a much longer rental. I figured if there was some trick for replacing the bulbs I could go that route first and then see if any ballasts needed replacing.

I've considered calling someone else to do it but the way I figure it they'll still have to rent the lift and buy the bulbs, so that's just going to be even that much more expensive.

Maybe I'll look into renting the rolling baker scaffold instead. I see Home Depot selling one for $550 so I'm assuming the rental will be less expensive than that.


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## drzaius (Nov 20, 2014)

I could be wrong, but I don't think a baker scaffold would be safe at that height. I'm an electrical contractor & we do lots of this kind of stuff. A scissor lift is almost always the way to go. One man on a lift can do way more than 2 men with scaffold. And lift delivery is less costly than scaffold setup & teardown. You can rent by the day, or week. 3 days rental is usually about the same as a week.

A 14' step ladder would do, but servicing fluorescent fixtures from a ladder can be tricky because of their length.

While your up there, you might as well clean the fixtures too.


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## Rob_s (Sep 12, 2016)

Yeah, doing that off the stepladder doesn't sound fun at all, even though I know it would reach.

I was really hoping to avoid the cost of the lift. Even just a pusharound lift if going to run me $300 for the week not counting delivery, etc.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

LED's are great - - -but they are not all created equal.

the LED life is measured as "L70" which is the point where you have 70% of the light output. Since LED's don't have filaments, they don't fail that way, the chips get dimmer and dimmer.

HOWEVER - - the electronics driving them is where a lot of the cost is. and just like the old Cheap 6 packs of Compact Fluorescent lights - - the electrolytic capacitor will crap out - so keep in mind as LED gets Cheaper and Cheaper…. often it is because they have "cost optimized it down to have the cheapest of the cheapest parts.

When you need to rent a lift to replace the failed items - the fact that you got a free one under warranty is not such a great deal
So if you make the switch - - you get what you pay for.


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## WoodES (Oct 8, 2013)

I have found 4' LED tubes at both the orange & blue boxes that fit the T8 fluorescent fixtures without a ballast change. Price was reasonable considering the life of the tube and I don't see a lot of difference in outpute

If you have T12 bulbs (the old standard), I haven't looked to see what is available. I just change those fixtures to T8.

Just found a t8/t12 LED direct replacement. Pricey, but you don't have to change it very often…

Orange Box


Blue Box


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## Rob_s (Sep 12, 2016)

I have a few issues with thenLED replacement idea.

The first is that the LEDs are typically on,y rated for 40-50k hours of life, while a standard T8 or T12 Re good for 36k, so there's not really that much of a longer lifespan.

Second is that some things I've read suggest that the standard LED conversions don't work as well for the higher ceiling like I have.

Third is that there are a lot of mixed reviews. Unlike a fixture you can reach easily from a standard stepladder, if I go rent a lift, install a new pair of bulbs, (or, God forbid, 32 bulbs) and they don't work, I've suddenly taken on a much more involved project.

The cost is up to 5-7x as much, meaning it's a lot of money on top of the lift rental to potentially have it not work.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

Do your lights need to be that high? It would seem that less lumens would be reaching the floor at 18'. If they don't need to be that high, I would suggest dropping them down to around 10'. A scissor lift will work, but do you have enough free floor space to move it around to where you need it?


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## splintergroup (Jan 20, 2015)

> LED s are great - - -but they are not all created equal.
> 
> the LED life is measured as "L70" which is the point where you have 70% of the light output. Since LED s don t have filaments, they don t fail that way, the chips get dimmer and dimmer.
> 
> ...


+1

It is almost always the power supply that fails, usually due to heat, and usually the heat destroys the large electrolytics.

One thing however is the LED tube replacements have a lot more room for the power supply.Not having it crammed into a lightbulb screw base, but instead spread out a bit over the backside of a tube helps keep things cooler.

Of course the corollary is the manufactures will see this as an opportunity to use lower quality (cheaper) parts in the power supply since it wont be exposed to as much heat…..


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## WoodES (Oct 8, 2013)

> I have a few issues with thenLED replacement idea.
> 
> The first is that the LEDs are typically on,y rated for 40-50k hours of life, while a standard T8 or T12 Re good for 36k, so there s not really that much of a longer lifespan.
> 
> ...


I have had t8's fail long before the 36k life and have several that are showing signs of failure. I don't see signs in the LED's, but I have only used them for several months. When I exhaust my T8 supply, I'll replace them with LED's.

Good discussion though


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## nightguy (Aug 2, 2016)

Check on LED lumins compared to florescent tubes, a few years ago when I checked into them the LED replacements where 1/3rd less.


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## splintergroup (Jan 20, 2015)

> Check on LED lumins compared to florescent tubes, a few years ago when I checked into them the LED replacements where 1/3rd less.
> 
> - nightguy


This is where the efficiency confusion arrises.

LEDs are getting more efficient all the time, a few years ago, LED tubes were on par with fluorescents, near 100 Watts/Lumen.

The LED packaging implied they used 1/2 the power of fluorescents, when in fact they also only provided 1/2 the light. This is generally still the case today.

On the other hand, fluorescents radiate light over 360 degrees of their surface, all that light that is not going downwards needs to be reflected to be of any use. The LED tubes have there emitters all facing downwards an din fact, even with about 50% of the Lumens, they appear brighter because they avoid the losses from the reflectors.

Fluorescents lose a big chunk of their light output during the fist hours of use. LEDs also lose brightness, but at a more gradual rate. A homeowner wanting to compare the brightness between the two needs to install a 'fresh' fluorescent tube to do a proper test.

Either way, I've mostly switched my fluorescents over to LEDs not due to any power savings (I see it currently as a wash), but due to the quality of the light, lack of flicker, and cold temperature performance.


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## Rob_s (Sep 12, 2016)

> Do your lights need to be that high? It would seem that less lumens would be reaching the floor at 18 . If they don t need to be that high, I would suggest dropping them down to around 10 . A scissor lift will work, but do you have enough free floor space to move it around to where you need it?
> 
> - MrRon


Relocating them down would be quite the undertaking. 16 fixtures total, with nothing at the lower elevation to support them… Would probably extend the rental time on the lift and/or require subbing out the work.

Plus, I'd eventually like to put in a loft of some sort, at which point the fixtures will have to be where they are now.


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## Rob_s (Sep 12, 2016)

> Check on LED lumins compared to florescent tubes, a few years ago when I checked into them the LED replacements where 1/3rd less.
> 
> - nightguy
> 
> ...


so, then, do you think the height is an issue going from flourescent to LED? Is the "throw" of the LED going to be up to the task?

I recall when weapon-mounted lights started going from incan to LED and while the LEDs are certainly brighter up close the incans had a better throw at distance and (perhaps irrelevantly) through smoke.

I also see some LED fixtures/bulbs listed as being for high ceilings, which leads me to think that there is an issue.


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## splintergroup (Jan 20, 2015)

> so, then, do you think the height is an issue going from flourescent to LED? Is the "throw" of the LED going to be up to the task?
> 
> I recall when weapon-mounted lights started going from incan to LED and while the LEDs are certainly brighter up close the incans had a better throw at distance and (perhaps irrelevantly) through smoke.
> 
> ...


The cheap (< $10) LED tubes use LED chips (likely a 5050SMD part #) without any additional lensing. I believe they have a typical beam with of 90 degrees (a fluorescent is 360 degrees).

Flash lights like you describe seem incredibly bright just because they have all that light concentrated into a narrow beam. Give them the same beam width as an 'old-school' halogen light and their apparent brightness advantage goes away.

Same deal with high ceiling lights. Here in my work office, the fluorescents have a more elaborate parabolic reflector grid, much more efficient at focusing the light than the typical 'painted white' reflector of cheap fluorescent fixtures.

An LED tube will be casting light that is essentially wasted lighting up the walls when installed on a high ceiling. Spending more for lensed LEDs can correct this, but then you are getting out of the cheap commodity price range and into the more expensive 'industrial' products.

Even so, I'd personally be tempted to try a standard LED tube at the 18' height (access issues aside) just to see what it can do. Ya never know!


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## splintergroup (Jan 20, 2015)

Actually here is a short blurb from a trade magazine that kind shows what I was trying to say 8^)


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## Rob_s (Sep 12, 2016)

That makes sense. So it looks like what they mean by "high" is ceilings that are at least double what mine come in at.

If the access wasn't the primary issue here I might consider trying to swap out just one fixture first. As it is, anything that throws any monkey wrenches into the works is going to star to add cost in the form of longer rental.


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## splintergroup (Jan 20, 2015)

Sorry for the diversion Rob, but back to your original question. If you are equipped with a box of 32 new tubes, which are very inexpensive. and you can rent an orchard ladder locally, you should be able to get some semblance of the light of days yore fairly cheaply.

Orchard ladders are quite stable and I imagine they are fairly cheap to rent, even easy to transport with a pickup truck.


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## Cooler (Feb 3, 2016)

Our factory is has about 30 foot ceilings. We dropped conduit to mount the lights at about 10 feet above the shop floor.

Since light falls off at the square of the distance moving the lights closer results in far more light on the equipment.

If it is not an eyesore, I'd leave the old lights in place and drop the new lights to about 9 feet. It will be twice as close and four times as bright.


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## Rob_s (Sep 12, 2016)

Just a couple of shots of what I'm dealing with. I think that hte Orchard ladder would actually get me to almost all of them. Right now I don't see any for rent in my area and the ones I see for sale are still too short, but it's a great idea.

I should also say that, without shame, I have a severe dislike of heights, and the idea of being up high, looking up, and reaching are all likely to lead to me landing on my head! So I'd like to find a 14'-16' tripod ladder that I can hold on to with my hand while reaching up to the fixture.


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## JoeinGa (Nov 26, 2012)

Hmmmm, somehow I have managed to miss this post. I worked for almost 8 years in the tool rental business and Oh the horror stories I could share! Like: People rent 12' ladders then adding 4 dining room chairs under them..

Or how 'bout the guy who rented our tow-behind BoomLift and even though we TOLD him it was NOT made for what he wanted, he bitched because when he parked it at the front of the house, and aimed the bucket THRU THE FRONT DOOR, the door frame kept it from articulating up high enough to paint his ceilings ! 
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So I THINK that this would be a likely solution … 
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*No need to thank me, just be safe out there *
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## Cooler (Feb 3, 2016)

Home Depot rents interior rolling scaffolds. They are stackable and about 30" x 5 feet, so you are standing on a "floor" and not on a ladder rung. I think this is a much safer option.

I would still consider "dropping" conduit to about 9 or 10 feet of height. It will make for a much brighter work area and will make changing bulbs and fixtures much easier in the future. And you can leave that to the electrician and the heights become his problem and not yours.

At $43.00 per day or $129.00 per week, this seems like a cost-effective option. You will need to stack two to gain a height of 12 feet, so double that. You will still need a box to stand on unless you are a retired NBA player. I see you have large rolling tables in your shop. You can stack the scaffolding on your table and that would give you the full height you need.

http://www6.homedepot.com/tool-truck-rental/Interior_Scaffold/APHDI-41837/


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## Rob_s (Sep 12, 2016)

Dropping the lights is a no-go because (1) way too expensive (2) I'll be adding a loft or lofts in the future and (3) it'll look like ass and be a problem for resale in the future. nobody is going to want 18' ceilings that are neutered by lights 10' off the floor.

that rolling scaffold is what I was talking about earlier as "bakers scaffold". At two-high it may also require outriggers for stability, at which point the rental cost is going to be close enough to the motorized version as to make that a much better option.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

Looks like you have ample floor space to move about. You could build a "tower" from 2×4's with a vertical ladder. Height of the tower would be 12' with a standing surface area of say 3' x 5'. Mounted on locking casters, it would be easy to move around and store away in a corner. The cost would probably be less than a scissors lift rental and be available any time.

As an additional thought, cover one side of the tower with plywood sheet. You can then transform the tower from vertical to horizontal and use it as an assembly table or bench.


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## woodbutcherbynight (Oct 21, 2011)

> Looks like you have ample floor space to move about. You could build a "tower" from 2×4 s with a vertical ladder. Height of the tower would be 12 with a standing surface area of say 3 x 5 . Mounted on locking casters, it would be easy to move around and store away in a corner. The cost would probably be less than a scissors lift rental and be available any time.
> 
> As an additional thought, cover one side of the tower with plywood sheet. You can then transform the tower from vertical to horizontal and use it as an assembly table or bench.
> 
> - MrRon


Cool idea


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## Rob_s (Sep 12, 2016)

Bumping this up as things are approaching critical. To make matters worse, it appears that it's probably the ballasts, not just the bulbs, so I'm probably looking at having to replace the entire set of lights.

Something else I'm seriously considering is copying what Jimmy Diresta did in his new shop, which is get an E39 fixture, and a corresponding LED corncob bulb, and hang them down and cover with a china ball diffuse/distribute the light. I may order one of each to play with and see if I like the results.


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## Rob_s (Sep 12, 2016)

This might be another option instead of the bare E39 fixture and china ball

http://www.ilighting.com/mx-11225.html

Not sure if it's compatible with the corncobs…


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## torus (Apr 8, 2017)

What do you think about this:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01N40EXRR

It is $30 for four, but you have to bypass ballast (and remove it, if you want to).
I like the idea 2×4 tower. It will be useful latter. There is an option to take it apart if lag bolts are used.


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

Maybe install LEDs 12 or 14 feet off the ground?


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## Fresch (Feb 21, 2013)

Look up led highbay/ lobay fixture. Get ~5yr. Warranty, about $150; still will need jack chain (mounting hardware).
Mine are 684 Halophane out of a school, with cf lamps, but I have led 100w equivalent in some of them to see the light out put. They look like the glass and wire frame kitchen pendant fixture.

You could always use a head lamp (led) ;^>


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## jonah (May 15, 2009)

If you're replacing bulbs and ballasts, you might as well just replace the whole fixture with an LED fixture. They cost what, $35 each for good ones from Costco? The bulbs and ballasts for a two bulb fixture must cost you at least $20.

Fluorescent ballasts are also a huge PITA, and they never last more than the lifetime of one or two bulbs.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

Another thought would be to rig a pulley and rope system that would lower/raise the fixture. It would have to be one for each fixture; maybe not too practical. That is what is used on really high chandeliers.


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## jonah (May 15, 2009)

You could probably put 3-5 fixtures on a sort of lighting grid at the ceiling, then have a pulley to lower that. You'd lose some of that barrel vaulted look, but preserve 95% of your ceiling height.


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## DavePolaschek (Oct 21, 2016)

The Feit corncob LEDs in "300W equivalent" are really nice. I have two of them in the 8' ceiling of my 24×21 garage which light the whole thing. They won't be quite as good in a high ceiling like yours, I suspect, but I would seriously look at them if you're going to have to convert anyhow.


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## TaySC (Jun 27, 2017)

LED's are the way to go…. direct wiring, no ballast, last longer, saves electricity, etc.

They are very easy to rewire the fixture once you are up there to change bulbs anyway.

As for getting up that high….. as some mentioned, it may be just as cheap to hire someone to do it versus having to rent the lift and haul it back and forth.


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## Rob_s (Sep 12, 2016)

I'm getting to the point that I'm considering the home-built platform/table. I need to get in Sketchup and monkey around a bit and see if I can come up with something that doubles as a table. I don't want to sacrifice the space to store it otherwise.

I've considered a pipe grid at 16' and whipping down to each fixture on that grid, and a pulley system to raise and lower it… but then I get to realizing what an undertaking that is and if I go to LED fixtures of some kind I hopefully won't be doing this again for a long time, and if I ever do get around to building a loft or second story that whole pipe grid thing will have to go.

Ultimately the advice of just paying someone else to deal with it is starting to sound appealing, even if the cost of doing so isn't. I just don't have the time to spend a whole weekend monkeying around with lights.

I previously saw this video





and subsequently emailed the company that sponsored same
http://www.americangreenlights.com/

and got an initial reply asking for the shop layout but my follow-up emails seemed to go ignored. I may try them again.


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## jonah (May 15, 2009)

If you're hiring someone to go up there, get them to install LED fixtures. It makes zero sense to outlay any money to replace ballasts in fluorescent fixtures in this day and age.


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## Rob_s (Sep 12, 2016)

> If you re hiring someone to go up there, get them to install LED fixtures. It makes zero sense to outlay any money to replace ballasts in fluorescent fixtures in this day and age.
> 
> - jonah


that's how I'm leaning, I'm just having a hard time finding good info in terms of the lighting calcs for that distance.


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## Sparks500 (Jun 30, 2017)

You can rent these pretty reasonably, and they fit in a pickup truck.


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## Carloz (Oct 12, 2016)

Home depot has just what you need.


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## Rob_s (Sep 12, 2016)

Wound up paying the electrician to do the ballast bypass method. $1400. They used a Genie lift.

Couldn't be happier! no hum, they come on almost immediately, awesome light coverage throughout.


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