# Sales Force for Woodworkers?



## Mike57 (Sep 18, 2007)

I am part of an entrepreneurship program in Michigan. One of the business ideas I have been toying around with is starting a company that represents independent woodworkers (possibly other crafts as well) to interior designers, galleries and other wholesalers / retailers.

I would really appreciate any thoughts from woodworkers who are selling or want to sell their items as to whether the idea has any legs.

Thanks for your thoughts.


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## uffitze (Apr 23, 2010)

Hey Mike … interesting idea. If you have the contacts and can get me in to places that I wouldn't otherwise have access to, I would certainly be willing to give you a cut of the business generated. Of course, I am only an aspiring pro, and have some work to do before I would be ready for your services. But, I will say this … finding solid sales leads is the thing about the business that scares me the most.


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## Kjuly (May 28, 2009)

Hi Mike,
I would like to hear more. 
I know a few people that sell their work.
I am in Charlotte. Where in SE Michigan are you?
Keith


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## Mike57 (Sep 18, 2007)

Hi Keith,

I am Royal Oak, MI. (just North of Detroit)
If you and your contacts would be willing, I would really like to come up and talk about how they currently do their sales/marketing and where they might need some assistance. It would really help me understand how deep the water is before I jump in.


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## Mike57 (Sep 18, 2007)

Hi Rob,

Thanks for the info. Anyway I could look him up?

Thanks!
Mike


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## Mike57 (Sep 18, 2007)

Hi Uffitze,

Yeah - I can your take on the scariness of generating sales. That's why I think that a sales force for woodworkers and others might be a good bet. I talked to a few artists at a local art fair her over the weekend and they agreed with you that it would be helpful to many folks to get some help in letting the markets know the kind of work they do.

Mike


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## Mike57 (Sep 18, 2007)

Rob, Thanks! Maybe I am focused on an area that he's not.
Mike


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## rance (Sep 30, 2009)

Hasn't one of the big magazines recently (last 12 mo.) started a site where woodworkers can sell their pieces or generate commissions? I believe one of the recent LJ contests even gave a subscription to it as one of the prizes. It sorta seems counterproductive to start another one when multiples already exist. Joining forces, as you mentioned, seems the right thing to do.


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## Mike57 (Sep 18, 2007)

Hi Rance,

Thanks for the feedback!

You're right, there are sites out there that allow woodworkers to sell their products. I don't know if the sites do a lot of active selling to get people to their sites, but you're making me think about that - it's a good question that I would need to check out before jumping in heads first (I'd like to avoid headaches like that…).

I have a bunch of research and checking to do before I take the plunge!

I'll check my back issues, but if you remember which one had it, I'd be grateful.

Thanks again!


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## Mike57 (Sep 18, 2007)

Hi Jarrod,

I don't have a price structure yet. I am working through the research planning phase to determine if the thing will fly. Right now, if I can get the pricing right, it seems to have a chance. I'll be asking for more thoughts over the next few days which will, hopefully, help me figure out what the real value is of ths idea to woodworkers and designers.

Hopefully, you and the other Lumberjocks will swamp me with feedback so that I can get a solid idea of whether or not I am getting into something that people value enough to allow me to support my family while helping others do the same.

Thanks!
Mike


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## rance (Sep 30, 2009)

Mike, http://www.custommade.com/ is what I was thinking of. Hope this helps. I'm not saying don't do your own thing, just giving you other models to compare with.


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## Broglea (Dec 9, 2009)

Mike - I thing you will get a lot of interest from the guys and girls on this site. Most of which (myself included) can produce quality furniture, but lack marketing firepower.

My question to you - Is there equal interest/demand from the galleries, designers etc that you referenced that could support such a proposed business?

Secondly, once you find a gallery interested in my stuff and it is not local, I would have to figure in shipping cost which will significantly cut into my/your profit to Jarrod's point.

I think you have a good idea that still has a lot of questions that need to be answered. Good luck to you my friend. If there is a will, there is a way.


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## DAWG (Oct 23, 2009)

Mike, I would like to hear more, please keep me informed of what you come up with.


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## pvwoodcrafts (Aug 31, 2007)

personally I have always thought woodworkers were missing out on great opportunities because interior designers don't know about them or just really don't want unique products. I personally know two interior designers . One bought a curly cherry hall table from me and sold it before leaving town that day. That was 3 years ago and haven't heard from her since. The other one just doesn't seem interested in wood.
I think its a great idea!


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## Kjuly (May 28, 2009)

Mike,
I can't speak for the others at this time but I am willing to look into this more. 
To set up some sort of group meeting, I think there should be some an outline or itinerary.

*"I am part of an entrepreneurship program in Michigan."* I would like to know a little more about this program and how it fits.
A phone call may be in order. If that will work, PM me your phone number and a good time to call.
Keith


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## LeeBarker (Aug 6, 2010)

Some fundamental observations: The idea rings true here because most woodworkers are introverts and don't get excited about walking up to someone and asking her/him to buy.

There are several comments in this thread about finding the vehicle. It's nice to have a vehicle, but it's not much use unless you have someplace to go. By that I mean, the buyers. Rance mentioned "one of the big magazines." Which one, and who reads it? (Magazines know this about their readership.)

Major shows, another way to reach potential buyers, have been credibly covered by Woodshop News and other trade publications.

Shows like Baltimore are places where the right buyers can meet up with artisans and touch their work, but the cost of displaying there has to be carefully considered. Costs for the vendors stay the same or increase, while the attendance year to year is something of a crapshoot.

What this rambling discourse is about is, we have to start backward, dispassionately, from the potential buyer, not frontward from the piece we just made (and in which we are deeply emotionally invested).

Mike57's idea would be dynamite if he were to come to us and say, "I represent a cross section of people from around the country who are interested in buying well made hand crafted wood items. Here is the statistical analysis of income, shown by region, cross referenced by category (sculpture, furniture, short-run production items [corporate gifts], etc.). I can connect you to these people by these methods, and here is the fee schedule for various levels of my services."


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## Mike57 (Sep 18, 2007)

Lee,

Thanks for your great feedback! You are right on target with your observation that I need to start from the customer and work back towards the person who can fulfill their need. Part of the research that I have to do is to talk with all of the customers. In this case, designers and woodworkers and other artists / artisans.

Researching the statistical information and presenting it as part of a service introduction is a great idea! Thanks!

If I could find a site with as much participation as this one has for designers / decorators I would put the same type of question to them that I put to everyone here yesterday. I haven't found that site yet, and will probably have to call specific designers that I know or to whom I can be introduced by someone I know to get their insights into the value that something like this would bring to them. I personally believe that they will be interested, but better to ask and confirm before deciding to jump in head or feet first.

Once I get this information, I will be back to this group to get your thoughts around the value to each of you.

Thanks again!
Mike


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## Mike57 (Sep 18, 2007)

Rance,

The site you listed has given me some great insight into what is out there. I just need to find out if my model of going directly after designers and galleries differs from the the websites owners.

Thanks!

Mike


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## Mike57 (Sep 18, 2007)

Hi Broglea,

I am hoping that you are absolutely correct, that there are a lot of people like you who would very likely benefit from having an organization help them market and sell their products and/or bring designers to them with specific needs.

The question yuou raised about whether there is sufficient demand to support this kind of business hits on one of the biggest questions I have - "Can I make a living doing this?". Right now, I honestly don't know - I am early in doing the research and am actively looking for information that will help me find the answer. My sense is that it could support a business, but only with a lot of hard word (nothing new here).

I know that there is interest from some galleries as I did a little legwork over the summer and found many that were very interested in getting top notch, local, talent to display and selll. I need to get a bigger cross section to help get a better handle on the potential.

Your question about shipping costs when going non-local versus local is very valid. From people that I have talked to, many times the freight cost is borne directly by the end consumer, but this is a bit of a new model, going to the designer as opposed to the end user, so I need to dig in a lot more in this area.

As you mentioned, there are a whole bunch of questions that need to be answered, most of which I haven't even come up with - so if you or anyone else has additional areas that you think I need to look into, please post them!

Thanks!

Mike


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## Mike57 (Sep 18, 2007)

I'll try to keep this post updated as I get new information to help keep everyone who is interested "in the loop".

Thank you all for your thoughts, comments, questions and well wishes!

Maybe by doing something like this, we can keep some of the dollars that are going off shore for furniture and other items, right here!

Mike


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## Mike57 (Sep 18, 2007)

Rob,

Just got home and haven't looked there yet!


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## mosaicwes (Sep 14, 2010)

count me in.


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## TechRedneck (Jul 30, 2010)

Mike.. Here in West Virginia there are a number of local craftsman looking to sell to make a living. There have been a number of attempts, some good. some flops at bringing buyers and sellers together. For a time, I worked for the local Economic Development Authority and saw a number of ideas like yours get started.

If you want to do it right, you will need to have someone who is really good at web development and photography. In addition, people who purchase hand crafted items (and pay handsomely) also love to have a story to tell about the craftsman, who what where how. This way when they display the piece in their home or office they can tell the story. I am talking "marketing" here.

check out this website : http://www.mountainmade.com/

The state runs a juried craft expo right off a major highway showcasing the best in the state

http://www.tamarackwv.com/default.aspx

you need excellent photographs, good copy and use Google and the search engines to maximize exposure.

Another issue is logistics, the LJ's involved will need to meet deadlines, and have the funds for raw materials up front, then perhaps wait 30-60 days for payment, unless you purchase directly from them upon receipt, re-package and ship. What I am saying here is that you need a solid business plan. A good website may run $5000 and up to attract your target customer.

I know the company who did the marketing and design for mountainmade.com They have a nice showroom in Thomas WV and advertise a lot. Tamarak is state run and I believe they barely break even or loose money. If you don't do websites for a living and think you can put something together using templates you'll spend endless hours and end up with a crappy site. There is a lot of work and expertise needed to put together a professional e-commerce website.

Work it out on paper, have a number of people look at the plan or post it here on LJ's and I am sure you can further define and refine the idea. Then you have to find the funding to get it off the ground. Believe it or not, with a good plan you can write a grant and get it funded if it is a good idea.


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## Mike57 (Sep 18, 2007)

Hi TechRedneck,

Thanks for the information. I checked out the sites you mentioned and came away with a little more focus on whart I want / need to do. You make a lot of good points - if you (or anyone who is following this discussion) think of more please keep them coming.

I really would like to know more about what you saw during your time in the local economic development arena. Any thoughts on what worked and what I should steer clear of?

I love the idea of a story for each of the pieces. For some of the pieces I have built for others, I have been able to do that and they always love it - I think it really makes the piece come alive for the client and makes for a much more interesting "conversation piece". I often work with reclaimed lumber and always try to keep track of where a tree fell, or came from, so I can give the customer the information.

Your tie in to marketing is right on. Anybody can chime in here, but from the people I have talked to so far, sales and marketing are areas that a lot of artists and artisans / craftspeople are uncomfortable with and would love to off-load to someone else.

For most of my career I did sales in Information Technology, Staffing and Financial industries, and was always interested in learning about how others sold their products and services - to the point that it started to annoy my wife and kids. Where they might spend 1/2 hour going through an aisle of vendors at various shows and fairs, I might have only gotten to 2 or 3 because I stopped and chatted with the artists about how they sell, etc.

The feedback from the group here has also provided a lot of good grist for thought. For example, I hadn't really given much thought to going after a grant until you mentioned it. The program I am in provides the opportunity to make a pitch for some seed funding but they also take a large piiece of the company. If I pursue the grant aspect, it seems that I would be in better shape from an ownership perspective.

I also agree with your comment about the business plan; it is an iterative process and one that I hope to continue to get great input from members here are well as from the people in my program.

For me the first step is to see if I can prove that there is a market for the type of service, and then I want to move on to how I would serve the market. Interestingly, during some of the interviews that I am doing, the people I talk to come up with ideas for things that should go into the website, services, how best to provide the information to the various customer groups (artistsans, interior designers) and many other great ideas.

If anyone is intersted, I have created a set of interview questions and would appreciate anyone in the furniture busienss going through and answering the questions.

Thanks again for your thoughts and thought starters!


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## closetguy (Sep 29, 2007)

Let me remind everyone about the hundreds of lengthy discussions we have had over the years about how thin the margins are on our widgets. With this business model you have a middle man taking a cut to sell your product to resellers at wholesale prices which is normally 50% of list. So now you will receive $40 for the widget you normally sell at shows and online for $100. I'll pass.


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## Kindlingmaker (Sep 29, 2008)

There no comitments in a discussion and by reading what several LJ's have said I have some food for thought, also and I am not venturing to start any business but there are some interesting bits of information. One possiblity is that if the company that represents woodworkers' art were able to present them to a higher buying client then what we could sell for $100 at a craft show we might be able to get $200 for by selling to the more afluent. Just some thoughts…


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## mosaicwes (Sep 14, 2010)

closet guy:

When I was starting out, looking to be a one man shop producing a product that I could sell, I did a lot of research on what it takes to make a success of a small manufacturing business.
Something I came across again and again was advice from veterans that the only way to be successful is to stay and the shop and produce product, leave the marketing to others and above all, avoid spending enormous amounts of you productivity time, schlepping your stuff from on trade show/craft fair to another.
Most of the galleries and craft stores that represent me now, take 40% which I am more than happy to give them because there's absolutely no way I could do what they do for less.

As for online sales, I already know that the internet is not going to sell my particular product to people who haven't seen it in real life. So my website is just a reference for clients who already know my work and place for them to find my contact information.


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## Kjuly (May 28, 2009)

Wes makes two good points. I sell some of my work through an art gallery. You can find me in the shop making sawdust while my work is on display. The gallery promotes it,sells it and even ships it, all while I am doing what I do best. That has a real value to me. 
I also have a web site and use as Wes describes( second good point) as a reference for someone to check out my work and make contact.


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## closetguy (Sep 29, 2007)

What works for some, just doesn't work for others. Wes, I would prefer to sell at a show myself and keep that 40%. Doing shows is an excuse to get out of the shop for a few days, socialize with other artists, and build a personal relationship with my customers. I don't want to be just a manufacturing business. That's why we have China.

I want to talk to customers. I want to get feedback and hear the "ooh and ah" from them. I want to network with other artists and craftsmen. It's a lifestyle, and one where I don't have to share my profits with anyone else. This way I can keep my prices reasonable and sell at a higher volume.

If you do large, high priced pieces, selling though a gallery may be the best solution. However, my small items sell quickly at shows so it doesn't make sense to do wholesale. As mike57 proposed, it also doesn't make sense to pay a salesman to promote your products to the wholesale market. In my opinion everyone makes money except for the woodworker.


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## Mike57 (Sep 18, 2007)

Hi closet guy,

Thanks for your feedback! I think you are correct in saying that what works for some, doesn't work for others. You hit on the foundation question of my research; what percent of people would find value in this type of service versus the percent of people who would not find value in it? If a large percent of the community finds no value, than the idea may not be viable for me to pursue as a business.

I hope that others who find no or limited value to what I am thinking about will also comment. Your thoughts shed some light things I haven't though through yet, and I am sure that others who would rather do the marketing themselves have additional thoughts that will help me make a better decision. I hope they chime in.

Thanks again!


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## uffitze (Apr 23, 2010)

It seems to me that the woodworker that you would represent will fit a fairly narrow description. Specifically, somebody who is fairly new to the business side of things, but who can create excellent pieces of (mostly original) furniture. Smaller items are probably best sold at craft shows, so you wouldn't represent those guys, and guys who are established will already have a number of galleries and designers that they work with, so they won't have much time available and are unlikely to want to give you a cut of the proceeds. But, then again, any artist would like to work with you if you have connections directly with wealthy customers.


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## closetguy (Sep 29, 2007)

I agree with uffitze. There is a price point cap at most shows. In today's economy, this cap seems to be at $100. Those doing work in the very high price point range would have a better chance at moving their creations in a gallery or with an interior designer. I watch guys come to a show with jewelry boxes that start at $300 and go up from there. Even though they are worth every penny in my opinion, they may be lucky to sell one. In the mean time, my $35-$100 items are moving out the booth.

My booth neighbor at a recent show was from Florida and use to sell only in galleries and gift stores across the country. He was not a woodworker. He had gone back to doing shows this year because gallery orders had almost died due to the recession. Many galleries and gift shops had either gone out of business or they had cut back on inventory because sales were so slow. He hated doing shows, but acknowledged that this was where the money was right now.


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## Mike57 (Sep 18, 2007)

Hi Uffitze,

Interesting thought about the target market being talented people who are new to the business. I hadn't thought too much about that and will definitely take closer note of the experience level (years in the business) data that I am collecting. Thanks!

Closet guy,

I have heard the same thing about heading back out onto the fair / show road. I have heard from a couple that they are back off the road. The majority of their clients are retired "high net worth" people.

Do interior designers ever buy smaller items as accessories? If so, what kind of items do they typically buy?


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## mosaicwes (Sep 14, 2010)

Mike,
I think the idea of creating a link between makers and interior designers could be a good one but that perhaps you're asking the wrong crowd for ideas. 
Personally I've found interior design people to be a slippery bunch of fish. Very hard to connect with.
I think they tend to shop specific suppliers and get into a rut. Looking at individual pieces or very limited product designs from individual makers is more hassle to them than they feel it's worth, but if you could assemble a catalog of goods available on short notice, you might get their attention.
And I suspect you'd have to set up appointments and see them in person.

I've mailed out hard copy stuff as well as tons of email letters of introduction and never gotten any responses. Like every other business, they get so much email that it just goes into the trash.


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## tworedballs (Jun 28, 2010)

Mike:

I find this topic to be interesting on 2 points:

1) I am a marketing manager for a national manufacturer (non-woodworking related)
2) I am making furniture in my garage for [a growing] list of clients

My neighbor who I am making an entire house full of furniture for, asked me why I don't do this for a living. I told her that at some point there is a jumping off stage between your day job and your "hobby". With a wife and small child at home, the dual income is needed now more than ever and as a moonlighting web-developer, I know the balance between spending time on my computer working and finding the clients. It can be tough and leads to loooong nights. So finding the client base to make furniture for would take too much time and I wouldn't be able to get anything built if I'm always out on the streets trying to drum up business. If only I had a sales force working for me…

There are 2 models where I think you could be successful…

*Model 1:*
1) develop a network of select craftsmen who do different things and are in different geographical regions. Maybe one guy specializes in mission style furniture while another likes to do more decorative french revival stuff. Someone else spicializes in office furniture, etc… BUILD YOUR TEAM FIRST.

2) Find you customers and bill yourself as a man who knows how to get things done. Like an advertising agency. They find the work and help with the ideas, but ultimately the production is done by a third party vendor and delivered to the client. You act as a project manager of sorts. Then you get a cut of the sale. Maybe 10%.

3) You can now tout your service as being able to deliver your prospective clients with the BEST craftsmen in the country, not just some wahoo making chairs in his basement. THAT IS HOW YOU COMPETE WITH OTHERS SELLING THE SAME SERVICE.

Conclusion: You have now delivered a product to a customer and they become a client and, as long as your vendor (the craftsman) did his/her job well, you will get repeat business.

*Model 2*
1) You develop a website where artists/craftsmen can display their work, contact info, etc. and you charge a fee for them to be a member. Let's say $100/year. Now, that is residual income.

2) you can now promote your WEBSITE as a tool for designers to use to find HUNDREDS of different craftsmen that can make all different kinds of things without you having to be involved in the process of selecting a particular craftsman for the job. Let them do that. It would be free for your customers to use the site but would cost $$ for the craftsmen to be a part of you advertising engine.

Conclusion: By promoting your website you are relieved of the duties of keeping in touch with/selecting your craftsmen and can keep in touch with your website users via mass email blasts reminding them of your site and to use it to find anything they need involving woodworking craftsmen. Now you're just selling more and more craftsmen on the idea of becoming part of this search engine by paying the annual membership fee and selling the designers on the idea of finding all these different craftsmen in one place.

If I were doing this, I'd go for model 2 as it would be the easiest to administrate. Just my $.02

P.S. And don't mind those telling you that someone else already provides this service, so why would you waste your time trying to duplicate it… If someone else is already doing it and making a living then there must be room for competition. Seriously, what if the Dodge brothers said "you know, there already is this Ford guy making cars, so why would I want to get into that business?"


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## uffitze (Apr 23, 2010)

model 2 is custommade.com … just saying.


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## thewoodguy (Sep 16, 2010)

I for one have to agree with tworedballs post. With that being said ,it sounds like to be he wants to have a site like the CustomMade website but marketed to interior designers and galleries only. I think in this day and age of any woodworker, any help would be beneficial to us all. I think something like 100.00 a year is a fair price for this service also. The thing I really don't like about CustomMade is it's 100.00 a month, Now if I was only making furniture for a living or on the side that would be a waste of money to me because of how likely I'm I to sell a piece of furniture the first couple of months or year. Or if what i'm selling is going to sit around the shop or house until it sells. Don't get me wrong I think the CustomMade website is wonderful outlet but I think it's only good for like Cabinetmakers who make kitchen cabinets, where they can make up the advertising costs in no time with 1 sale. Just my 2 cents


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## closetguy (Sep 29, 2007)

Tworedballs, the problem with your last paragraph is I have never heard anyone step up and say "I make a *living* selling online". There is a difference between making money, and making a living. I make money selling online, but I would starve if I relied only on the Internet for sales. The Internet is just one of many sources that need to be cultivated to create enough sales to make a living.

I have seen the www.custommade.com site mentioned in numerous similar discussions. I find it interesting that no one has stepped up and detailed their experience with it. Are they making a living though it? Are they making sales though it? And what is the volume of sales? Once a year? Twice a year? I assume that if it was that good, there would be a lot more buzz about it. I would love to hear a good success story.


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## uffitze (Apr 23, 2010)

I am curious about custommade too. My guess is that it is a piece of the marketing puzzle, and you might never even get a direct sale from the site, but it does increase your web presence, and if it indirectly leads to even one or two significant sales per year, it is probably worth it.


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## tworedballs (Jun 28, 2010)

@Closetguy:

We're not talking about woodworkers making a living selling solely online - we're talking about a guy who wants to make a living pairing woodworkers with clients and getting a cut of the deal. Who cares if the woodworker only gets 1 or 2 sales from the site. It would be cheap[er] than other avenues that are more traditional. If you are relying on one form of advertising and it's not cutting it, then you obviously need to diversify your efforts.

$100/mo. is laughable for me as I'm a hobbyist. Unless I was guaranteed 1 job a month from the site, I wouldn't consider it a good investment of resources. I get 1 email/week from my free craigslist ads I post, and that's just in my city. Unfortunately, my portfolio of work is limited (as it pertains to making furniture), so I can't provide many examples of work for prospects who are interested in my products.

The company I work for advertises our products on several "search" sites like the model 2 I mentioned above and the fees are closer to $1k/year. Do we get much business from them? No. Does it increase brand awareness? Absolutely. Can you put a price on that? No.


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## Mike57 (Sep 18, 2007)

Hi everyone,

The recent posts have been great! You are really helping me get a more clear understanding of what crafts people think.

Tworedballs:
Thanks for your ideas on the two different models! You sparked a few thoughts and questions.

Build the team first - I had considered selling to both sides at the same time, but you make a good point. I need to know at least some of what I/artisans will be ultimately able to deliver before I go and offer services to the designers. At the outset, it makes sense to have a few (or many) crafts people so that I can go in with a product; having something will allow me to get in to meet with the designers. Once meeting with them, I can poke around a little and find out what things / styles they are looking for that they are having trouble getting for their clients; using that information I can expand my search for specific talent/suppliers to fill the need. What do you (and others) think?

Taking from your model 2 idea, I can grow the website as a general site for woodworkers and designers to meet, while at the same time, I can focus my time finding crafts people who are local to designers which meet the local designers' needs. So, for example, if a designer in Chicago has a great wood furniture maker, but hasn't found a good metal smith and the trends of their customers' design requirements aim at metal furniture / accessories, then I could do the research for the designers and connect the two parties via the website. The idea kind of forming is to focus personal sales efforts regionally, and then try to replicate the model in other regions, with other representatives getting to know their areas well enough to be considered as an asset to both sides. Thoughts?

In your last post, you mentioned that your company advertises your products on several sites without being able to quantify the impact through sales. That really caught my attention. What value do/did those sites offer to your company versus other sites that you decided not to advertise through?


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## Mike57 (Sep 18, 2007)

Hi uffitze,

I agree with you that model 2 seems to be the "custommade" solution. I would want to figure out a differentiator so that I wold be able to compete effectively.

I am not sure how custommade drives people to their site - if anyone has thoughts on this, I would really appreciate it.

Thanks!


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## KayBee (Jul 6, 2009)

There's already a 'trade only' book published for interior designers that has portfolio type pictures and contact info. It's most likely a web site also now. Woodworkers and artists pay to have a 2 page spread, full color. Believe it is published quarterly. Like I said, it sold to design pros exclusively, because everyone involved knows how the whole commission/referal system works. (Sorry, can't remember the name of it right now.) This sounds kind of like your idea.


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## Mike57 (Sep 18, 2007)

Hi closetguy,

I too would like to hear/read about a "Custommade" success story. If anyone can help out, it would be great!

I agree with you that here needs to be several different paths to be taken in order to be effective in getting the word out, and more importantly, generating real business. What I have noticed as a consumer at art fairs, is that a number of artists have seemed somewhat uncomfortable in approaching prospects. This led me to think that they probably are not pounding the pavement to introduce themselves to designers, architects, galleries, etc. I believe that a lot of artisans are out there with incredible talent who need a little (or a lot of) help in getting the word out; it can be nerve wracking for a lot of people to walk into a gallery and try to show their portfolio; rejection is taken personally and as a result, if they take a day or two to go and try to visit (or even call), they "take a break" after getting one, two, or three negative reactions from prospects.

For people like yourself, who are satisfied with the way things are going, the value would be nill, but for others who want to grow but don't know how (they know about woodworking / furniture making), are uncomfortable doing it, there would be some value.

A question is will people pay for that type of service - like anything, some will and some won't. At the end of the day, before I jump in, I want to know that I will be able to financially take care of my family.

Please keep the thoughts coming - thanks!


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## mosaicwes (Sep 14, 2010)

This thread reminds me of a conversation I had awhile ago about something quite different; and yet the same.
For many years I was a road musician playing mostly in bars, 6 nights a week. There are a lot of us older musicians around who are quite capable of playing together without a whole lot of fuss and bother.
So I was musing to a friend and fellow ex musician that it might be fun to put together a weekend band and do a little playing again and my buddy made a very valid point when he said:
There are lots of really good musicians around who'd be happy to play, what you need is a gig.

This thread strikes me as much the same conversation. There are tons of excellent woodworkers who are eager to build high quality products. Finding them is not a problem. For starters, you could almost certainly pick and choose all the makers you need right here on this site. 
Supply is the easy part. 
The problem is demand. Completely.


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## LeeBarker (Aug 6, 2010)

Good conversation.

Wes' comments hit home (yes, I am an aging musician) but this needs to be added: Any study of marketing in the US reveals that demand can be created. It takes $, but it can be done. If the goal is to unearth a market with one check of the compass and instantly locating the X on the map without any checks being written, then yes, that needs to be done first.

Re: decorators, my limited experience yields these two observations: 1, they want to keystone (double) their wholesale price, and 2, they often want you not to be involved in the transaction so they can protect their client-decorator relationship so they can come back to you (or someone) with another order and cop another keystone.

That's all said just as relating experience, not judgmental.


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## mosaicwes (Sep 14, 2010)

And I will add, that some of the best galleries work on the same principle. 
They have no contact between the artisan and the client for exactly those reasons.


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## sawblade1 (Feb 11, 2010)

Count me in PM me if you need some ideas to start


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## closetguy (Sep 29, 2007)

Bingo Lee. I sold custom closets through Interior Designers for a number of years. They brought me a lot of big jobs, but they want to control the entire process and relationship. These customers also paid considerably more for my work than if they had come directly to me. Word of mouth tends to favor the designer rather than the craftsman in this situation. One of my Interior Designers had a showroom full of unique furniture and accessories. Not one piece identified where it came from.

The real question mike57 is "Does custommade.com drive "buying" customers to the site?". You can have 150,000 visitors a day to your site, but if nobody buys anything, that figure is irrelevant. I remember a post a while back where someone said custommade.com was great because they get two to three inquires a week off it. Well, how many sales do you get? I can't buy a cup of coffee from an inquiry or a view. It's all about quality customers, rather than window shoppers.

Back during the days when my custom closet business was booming, I was experiencing an 80% closure rate from leads that came from conventional advertising. My closure rate for Internet leads was around 20%. On the conventional leads, I would generally close the sale on the first visit and walk out the door with a deposit. On Internet lead sales calls, the homeowner would say "I'll let you know. I have five other companies to talk to this week". What was happening was increased competition and choices because when they did a search, they had a whole page full of companies to choose from. If I was the first one in the door, I was sunk. If I was the last one through the door, I had a good chance because by this time the homeowner was worn down to the point of giving me a check for the whole process to be over.

I think the same thing happens with woodworking products online. You can do a search for anything be it a cutting board, lazy susan, coffee table etc., and the potential customer has hundreds of choices. It's like 30 woodworkers setting up individual brick and mortar shops side by side in the same shopping center, selling the same products. In this situation those who have the most dazzle, or "pop" factor, gets the most sales. Or do they? Do they finally get weary and buy something from the last store they get to because they are tired of looking?

Mike57, I agree with your craft show observations. But this is just the individual's personality. Some are more outgoing than others and some have more aspirations and goals than others. Everyone is different and given the opportunity you are talking about, some would not take the initiative to follow through on it. I've always said that it's less about woodworking and more about the ability to sell yourself and market your product. It takes a little stubbornness also.

Would people pay for that service? They probably would, but if you don't get sales for these guys, they will quit paying you money and you will never get them back. An old sales guy once told me that all salesmen should work on commission. It gives them an incentive to perform.


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## Mike57 (Sep 18, 2007)

Great stuff!

Wes:
You mention that demand is the problem. I wonder if the demand is there, but that the designers can't find the supplier - I have only spoken to one designer so far, have interviews with several more coming up, so it will be interesting to see what their take is. The one that I spoke to mentioned that he worked with local woodworkers and other crafts people, and tended to work with people he already knew - he felt that some of the items he had to go "non-local" for might have been available locally, but he did not want to spend the time looking for crafts people. Only one perspective, but interesting (to me anyway).

Hopefully over the next few weeks as I complete the first round of interviews, I'll be able to point to the demand as the problem or the linkage between the two groups as the problem, or find out it is a combination of both (most likely in my mind). As I talk to the designers, if they are interested in trying to source locally, I'll try to find out how they would like to get the information that will help them pick.


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## Mike57 (Sep 18, 2007)

Hi Lee:

Thanks for the "keystone" information. I hadn't heard that term before in this context. Given what little I know about wholesale / retail pricing in the furniture industry as a whole, doubling the price doesn't seem to be out of line. Have you seen it differently?

I agree that a lot of designers do want to be the only line of communication to the end customer, but that seems normal to me when I look at it from a wholesale / retail perspective. When my wife and I did a remodel of our home a few years ago, we talked directly to the general contractor and he dealt with all of his subs - when we buy a car we deal with dealerships, we typically deal with a dealership, rather than the automobile manufacturer.

In some regard, I can appreciate the designers point of view that they are the ones who have to get the customer and they want to make as much money from any given customer as possible. I guess it depends on who you see as the customer - if a designer is involved, I typically consider them to be my customer (they are the ones who write me the checks).

For commissions that I have been brought by designers, I have seen it both ways, but typically they don't bring me in until they trust that I won't try to take the customer away from them. I don't try, because I know that while they are out there selling for themselves, they are also selling for me, and the moment I do take one of their customers away, I just decreased my unpaid sales force by one person

When I price out a piece, I expect to get less because they eliminate a couple of potential headaches - finding the customers in the first place and dealing with all of the calls that an end customer might make to me if the designer wasn't in between. I am not sure it is the best route, but it is the path I am on right now?


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## Mike57 (Sep 18, 2007)

Hi Closetguy:

As I was reading your and Lee's latest posts, I thought about a designer who showcases some of my work. She has a bunch of local artists and she also doesn't identify them. At first I was a little miffed about it, but sat back and thought again like a wholesaler and came down on the side that my customer was the designer and as long as she keeps buying my stuff, I won't mind. This hiding the manufacturer is pretty common in a lot of industries including things like power equipment - someone told me that Porter Cable and another popular brand (might have been Delta) equipment were made on the same line in China these days.

Thanks for giving me the numbers on your conversion from internet leads versus walk-ins. I guess it makes sense, and I think a few guys here have made the point that if I go down this business path, I will need to develop multiple distribution methodologies or narrow the type of products that I represent/sell to those that move in the same distribution channels.

The last point you made about if I don't deliver, the artists will leave me forever, is true across a lot of industries. If a company doesn't provides the products or services it says it does, customers are not going to stick around. I guess, since my wife doesn't go on this site, I could extend the logic to say that if I don't put food on the table, she might do the same thing! ;-)


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## tworedballs (Jun 28, 2010)

Mike:

You are headed in the right direction. I think knowing what you can offer is best BEFORE walking into a meeting and then having to become a "yes" man. Ex. - you go to a meeting and the client say I need a custom closet. You say "Yes!, I can get that done," when in the back of your mind you're thinking '********************, now I have to find a guy that makes custom closets!'

As far as quantifying the sales we get from advertising leads like industry specific search sites and why we (the company I work for) continue to use certain ones, there is a branding position we need to be in. If our tier 1 competition is advertising there, we need to as well, even if it's just to have our name on the same site. Just like as soon as a McDonald's is built, chances are a Burger King or Wendy's will show up across the street. In my industry many times the buying customer (contractor) doesn't look for the brand and then determine the specs, they look for the specs and then find the brands that can deliver.

Also, don't forget that the 3 main reasons a customer will choose your product over another's are:
1) *Price* - If I'm selling the exact same widget as you for $5 less, why wouldn't someone choose me over you?
2) *Quality* - Do you make the Cadillac of widgets or the Yugo of widgets?
3) *Service* - Can you provide a value added service that your competition can't?

3 examples of this are:

*Harbor Freight vs. Woodcraft/Rockler* People will go to HF to get certain items because they know it will only be used a few times and there is no need to spend $400 of a Festool router when they can get one from HF for $60. Regardless of quality they choose the cheaper product because they are on a budget.

*Toyota vs. Chevy* - Up until recently, the common perception of Toyotas was that they will go for 100k, 200k or even 300k miles whereas a Chevy may only go for 100-150k tops. They both make cars and trucks that fall into the same vehicle classes and have very similar specs and options. The Toyota may cost more, but many comsumers feel it's worh it to get a better quality product, regardless of a slightly higher price.

*John Smith Ford vs. Bob Smith Ford* - Ever wonder why there are so many dealerships in a city when they are selling the EXACT same product to the EXACT same customer base? They all buy them from the manufacturer for the same price (an insider for Lincoln told me this) and generally sell for the same price, they all have the same quality because it's the exact same product. It comes down to service. I chose Jon Smith Ford because of the courteous sales people and the low pressure sales tactics they use, and every time I get my car serviced they wash it and Armor-All the tires. Not like Bob Smith Ford whose salesperson kept calling me everyday for a week asking if I was ready to buy.

Many times the 3 principles combine to form an overall comsumer opinion, but what you have to do is figure out where you stand vs. your competition in each of the categories and then market yourself in that respective manner. If you dod a website that is identical in function to your competition, you'd better be able to tell your customer base WHY you're better. Are you cheaper? Do you offer a better quality product? Do you offer more services to your customer than your competition? If the naswer is no, then you need to be able to tell them why and hopefully they will see the overall value in what you offer.

The jobs are out there, otherwise interior designers wouldn't have careers. I'm finding that by offering my customers an alternative to big-box retailers at a competitive price, I can provide them with a better quality product at near the same price. They understand that the PotteryBarn table they are looking at is probably made in China. They understand that mine is not and that it will probably last for generations, not years. They also are able to tell their friends they had it custom made and that gives them a sense of individuality. So what have I done? I've found the market by positioning myself as a person who sells a product that is identical in looks to a very popular furniture line, allowing me to know where my pricepoint needs to be in order to show the customer the true value of my work. You can do the same thing by selling your service as an alternative to them running up to IKEA to grab some shelves made of particle board, when they can get something that looks identical but is made of solid oak at a little higher price that the customer will be happier with due to the increased quality.


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## closetguy (Sep 29, 2007)

tworedballs, there are people who make their purchase decisions on price alone, but my experience has shown that many people will pay more for perceived quality. I have made sales many times where I wasn't the lowest cost solution. It the same reason why someone elects to buy a Lexus over a Toyota.

mike57, I agree that if the product is moving, who cares if no one knows who you are. However, what if later down the road they quit carrying your product in favor of another competitor with a lower price? Or they go out of business. Think of the customer base that was just lost. I bring this up because of my customer mailing list. Anytime I come out with a new product, or a old product made from a very unique piece of wood, I send an email out to a select list I compile from shows and online customers. Two months ago I started making Post Office box banks and I emailed a picture out to about 20 customers that buy higher dollar and custom items from me regularly. Two days later I had 15 orders. One guy from Texas ordered 6, engraved with his grand kids names on the glass. This type of repeat business is priceless, not to mention that it is at list price.

Don't get me wrong, I think what you want to do is a good thing and would eliminate the stigma that many woodworkers have about knocking on doors. I don't think many understand the keystone concept of retail gift stores. Your challenge will be telling a woodworker that his or her item is priced too high and watch them take offense to it. They want to sell wholesale, but don't really understand what that means price-wise. Or each store you approach tells you they can't sell an item for the set list price. Make no mistake, most store owners know their customers and know what a reasonable price should be for an item. It will be a tremendous balancing act for you.


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## SteveMI (May 19, 2009)

Mike - Don't know if you were one of them, but at 4 shows in Michigan the past two months I have been approached at my booth and given cards by people interesting in "representing" me to designers and galleries. When asked about the business model they either said "market rate commision" or decided that was time to move on. None could name a designer they represented or name someone they could use as a reference. All the cards ended up in the trash. I thought this was some new marketing model from the internet.

Wes cuts to the bone, anyone that does have the connections is worth 30-40% and anyone who doesn't think they need that size of markup doesn't really understand the time to do the job right.

I also agree with Wes that being in the shop and not sitting 16 hours a weekend at shows is worth a lot. Once you figure out your market rate, I would be interested in your operation for the products that I can make.

Steve.


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## Mike57 (Sep 18, 2007)

Hi Steve,

Thanks for your thoughts! In a way, it is good to know that thre are other people who see the same opportunity that I am considering. Would you happen to remember any of their names?

Mike


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## Mike57 (Sep 18, 2007)

Hi tworedballs,

Thakns again for your comments! It is pretty clear that you have done a lot of thinking in this area. The 3 differentiators you mention make a lot of sense.

Overall, I hope that I can differentiate myself primarily on the service end of things. This will require that I have a physical presence in my focus regions, which to me means, people who know the business and can offer guidance to both designers and the crafts people. As I continue to dig into this, it looks like a regional model, where there are representatives responsible for certain geographic areas so that they can ensure that there is personal contact with both the designers and the crafts people.

Given the workmanship and pride of workmanship I see in many of the projects shown on this site, I think that if I go for this opportunity, the quality will be as good, and likely much better than, the stuff from overseas. Of course, pictures con only tell so much about this aspect, so again face to face contact is going to be important.

The price issue will be "interesting". As closetguy points out, there is likely to be concern about pricing from the crafts people. As I am writing this, I realize that I need to do more questioning around pricing when I talk to the designers and architects so that I can represent back to the crafts people what the market is for various types of works. I would think that this goes for commission sales as well as inventoried items.

I would appreciate all of your thoughts on ways to differentiate both to the designers/architects and to the crafts people.

I have had a couple more conversations/interviews with people (artisans and showroom owners) who would be involved and at a conceptual level they think that there is value. I have a presentation to the committee who oversees the program I am in this coming week (Thursday) and will post their feedback when I receive it.

Thanks!


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## Mike57 (Sep 18, 2007)

Hi closetguy,

You make a good point about what happens if a designer/showroom stops selling a product. My thought around this is that it would be up to me (my group) to understand why this happened and hopefully be aware before it does happen to work with all parties to address the reasons when it is a "potential" problem. Clearly, if a customer is going out of business, there isn't a lot that can be done to stop it.

When you work with galleries, designers, or other third parties, are there any steps that you currenlty take, or would suggest that I take (should this research pan out) to help minimize the impactr of something like this?

I agree with you that it will be a tight rope balancing act with alligators on both sides. On one side, ther wil be the crafts people who naturally want to maximize their profit while on the other side will be the designers who want to do the same. It is going to take education of both sides to help them set realistic expectations as to the price and cost. It seems I'll need to educate the crafts people on what the market will bear for their types of work and how the mark up works. I'll need to do the same for the designers as far as the amount of effort needed to create a piece - I'll also have to give them the bullets to help them overcome similar objections that their customers might have. Things like being able to give a customer a story that goes along with the item - I think in one of the earlier posts, somebody mentioned this as something that people love. I know that a couple of my customers have been very excited to get a "provenance" sheet.

I still need to determine the dollar value of the value thart at on organization brings to both sides to make sure that if I jump off into this, I'll be able to support my family.

Anyone's thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated!


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## miles125 (Jun 8, 2007)

An instructive video for someone to do would be taking a nice item of woodwork around to varied venues and just asking how much they thought it would fetch from their clientele. Which would demonstrate that woodwork's value is in direct correlation to whoever you happen to sell it to.


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## mosaicwes (Sep 14, 2010)

Jorge G:
First of all, where did you get the idea that woodworkers don't sign their work?
All of the galleries and craft venues that I deal with insist on it.

Secondly, if you "always have traffic" how the heck do you get any work done?
Some of the venues I'm in get over a thousand people a day passing thru their doors at times.

I do get commissioned work from clients who are referred by galleries or who saw my work somewhere else and contact me personally, but most often these people are from other areas. We come to an agreement, I custom make the piece for them and then ship either to the gallery or the client themselves. 
Not problem.


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## mosaicwes (Sep 14, 2010)

This: "woodworkers do not sign their creations nor do they make limited editions, etc, etc."

is not 'expressing an opinion'.

It's a patently incorrect statement that could be misleading to beginning woodworkers who are not familar with how art and craft galleries function.

I sign my work on the front, usually in the right hand corner, approximately 3" long by 3/4" tall. 
It's a very visible aspect of what I do.

Several of the galleries that represent me are in high traffic tourist destinations and yes indeed, I know for a fact that they have at times installed an electronic device that tracks walk ins and have recorded over 1000 visitors a day.

I don't have my own gallery for the same reasons that most artists don't. Running a successful gallery is a full time job to say the least. I can't possibly do my work and run a gallery as well, much less run galleries in more than a dozen locations.
That's why I'm more than happy to pay 40% to have these people do it.

I used to make cabinets and furniture. All of the people who sell furniture in craft galleries not only sign their work, the galleries rely heavily on the reputation of that signature for repeat sales.
As you yourself pointed out, Maloof's chairs don't bring $90000 because they're well made, they bring those prices because there were made (and signed) by Sam Maloof.

Lastly, this is an open forum where people get to express opinions and share knowledge.
If you make incorrect statements about things you're not familiar with, you have to expect that someone might challenge what you're saying. That's just the way it works.

Working with galleries is something I now about. Making furniture is also something I know about.
I'm not only a ticketed journeyman joiner, I'm also a qualified joinery instructor and have taught my craft
in a formal trade school and I still make the odd piece of furniture.


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## Kindlingmaker (Sep 29, 2008)

Wes Giesbrecht, Your idea, thought processes and asking for input is very interesting as well as those that have participated. I will keep reading this forum and see where it goes…


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## mosaicwes (Sep 14, 2010)




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## Mike57 (Sep 18, 2007)

Hi Miles 125,
Interesting thought about making a video. Thanks!

I have been thinking about taking a few pieces around as sort of a test to see where the market is as compared to what a crafts person might believe the price ought to be, but hadn't thought about videotaping the response. Do you think taking a few pieces around and reporting the prices offered as part of this forum would also help?

Anybody else have ideas as to how I can combine a little marketing and training?


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## Mike57 (Sep 18, 2007)

Hi guys,

I just read the interchange between Jorge G and Wes. It looks like it went from issue based to stepping into the "personal" critique.

I think we all can appreciate that when people exchange ideas from different points of view it can get a bit warm under the collar. However, Lumberjocks has explicit rules about the tone and tenor of a discussion, about critiquing ideas not the people. As I am really learning quite a bit from the different points of view in this discussion, I don't want Lumberjocks to shut down the discussion.

I will please ask everyone to be mindful of the rules and remember that it is very likely that each of us is or has been successful in one way or another, often times using very different paths to reach the same goal; how many different paths are there to the top of Mt Everest? 

Thanks to everyone!


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## mosaicwes (Sep 14, 2010)

Mike,

Something I've been thinking about for quite awhile in reference to showing work to potential 
galleries or interior decorators etc.:
I find that when I walk in and approach them directly, they're usually quite willing to talk but I need for them to see what I'm talking about. Typically, I ask them to open my website but there are problems with that.
First of all, they're sitting at the computer and usually I'm facing them and can't see what they're seeing.
Then the number of images that I have on there can be a bit overwhelming. Also, there's the hassle for them of clicking back and forth between icons to enlarge and close images while carrying on a conversation regarding pricing etc. 
I can hope, that after I'm gone they'll take a more in depth look but you know…. every one's so busy etc.

I've been thinking that an iPad designated for this task might be a good solution.
Set up with a slide show of perhaps 2 dozen images, to show for 5 seconds each, the order of which I would have memorised along with an explicit little blurb of information about each piece that I could recite while they view the images. 24 images in exactly 2 minutes. Almost anyone will give you 2 minutes of their time and if the images are really eye catching I suspect it wouldn't be hard to hold their attention.
A laptop would work of course but it's a bit awkward. I think it would be so much slicker to turn on an iPad and hold it so that you can both see it while you talk to them.

As opposed to lugging actual items around. I've done that too and found it quite unsatisfactory. 
And how many pieces can you carry?

I would actually love to do this and send image loaded iPads to the the galleries that already represent me, to use at their discretion when dealing with potential buyers but cost and danger of loss makes it little outside of my reach.

Anyway, just something I've been thinking about.


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## Mike57 (Sep 18, 2007)

Hi JorgeG,

I agree that signing a piece is important - hadn't brought it up in this discussion before, so thanks for putting it out there.

Sounds like you have a very good setup with a gallery and a workshop combined. That is my dream.

In my wanderings, I have found some very talented woodworkers, painters and sculptors squirreled away in renovated industrial centers who don't have a gallery setup. As I continue to narrow down my target customers, it seems that it is this type of person would get the most benefit. My question has been and remains, "is there enough demand for someone to sell and market artists and crafts people's products for me to make a living?"

You mentioned that selling and marketing is the hard part while woodworking is the easy part. For some, I would agree, for others, it can be just the opposite. I have a very good friend who currently manages very large IT accounts selling into some of the largest companies in the world. He lives in a beautiful historic home, and we have a tacit agreement that he doesn't do any woodworking (nothing, nada)!  Put a hammer in his hand and it becomes a dangerous weapon, much less a power tool! For him, selling is the easy part. Wouldn't it be a powerful combination if we could pair up someone like him with some of the talented woodworkers and other crafts people who would rather spend all of their time in the shop rather than out selling? For some it wouldn't work, for others it may be the ticket they need.

I am really curious as to how you got designers and architects to your gallery during your first years. Did you do marketing of any sort (if so, what kind?)? Do you think it would work for others?

I agree with you that it would be better for people to know my name and associate it with really well designed, high quality furniture. The other side of the coin as I see it is distribution. If an artist can get a few designers, galleries selling products for them, it widens their market. In Michigan, where I live, there are pockets of very wealthy people (net worth north of $50MM) which are widely spread out, often several hundred miles apart. It would seem in this case, that having a gallery in Bloomfield Hills (SE Michigan) and one in Harbor Springs (NW lower Peninsula) carrying pieces would seem to be good business. Not the only model for success, but something that might work for some.

Somewhat along the same lines, I work with a couple of designers who would love to get more local content into their projects but don't have a good listing of local crafts people and can't afford to spend the time looking for them. Currently, they default to going online, or to specialty stores that might have close to what they want, and order the items. If they know of someone, whom they have met, in some cases, accidentally, they will go back to them repeatedly - good deal for the fortunate few. As I talk to them, and I haven't talked to a lot yet, it sems that they would be open to getting some help in this area; again need to quantify.

Thoughts?


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## Mike57 (Sep 18, 2007)

Hi Wes,

Interesting idea! You're right about it being a pain to haul around several items, especially furniture. The possibility of damage gets pretty large and like you said "how many pieces can you carry?"

Might a combination be a good 1 2 punch? Take the IPAD in with pictures to pique their interest and then bring selected items back for a visit, or have them come down to a location (gallery?). From my experience, once someone can actually touch / hold an item, there is a greater likelihood that they will "want" it.


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## Mike57 (Sep 18, 2007)

Hi JorgeG,

I hadn't thought about positioning myself as an alternative to a gallery, but your comments made me stop and really consider the idea. I wonder what the relation is between the two from a pricing point of view? Some galleries have a agreements to offer discounts to "members of the trade". I wonder how wide spread the practice is, what the discount percent is, and whether or not it varies (and if so "why" does it vary?)

You, along with several people I have spoken with, as well as a couple of folks who have participated in this forum (I think), have mentioned the term "agent". I am beginning to take a liking to this term as it implies more than "salesperson". I am hoping that I can gain the trust of both the artists and the designers, and reach the status of a value added "partner" to both groups.

As you note, there are likely a lot more than one designer wanting to do more business with local talent. I met with a designer this evening who told me she was having a difficult time finding a "lighting guy" who was good and who she could trust. The more I talk to designers, the more I am convinced that there is a need for this linkage between the two groups.

Knowing about your experience with galleries, I wanted to ask you about a situation that I ran into. I introduced some items to a gallery who expressed a strong desire to show the work. Their setup for painting and sculpture is all about highlighting the artist, with entire rooms (or maybe a wall in a room) dedicated to a particular artist. The furniture pieces were placed throughout with information about the crafts person who designed/built the pieces, although the furniture artisans were not as well identified - they weren't hidden, but not listed on signs as were the painters. They want to take the pieces on a consignment basis at a 50/50 split. What are your thoughts? Comments from anyone with experience in this area would be really appreciated!

Thanks!


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## mosaicwes (Sep 14, 2010)

My wood mosaics are in both fine art galleries and craft galleries.
Most of the art galleries take 50% even tho my material and overhead costs are far higher than say,
a painter's in most cases. 
If, or I suppose I should say when, the economy improves, they'll be the first ones I'll drop.
Craft galleries typically take 40% which is still a big enough chunk.
If you're planning to take an additional 10%..... that is the plan, right?....
strikes me as you should concentrate on craft galleries.
I can't see many artisans being interested in parting with more than 50% of the retail price.

Someone else mentioned that designers also like to mark up 50%. 
I don't know if you could negotiate a deal where they would share their markup with you.


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## uffitze (Apr 23, 2010)

So Mike, I'm curious about what the designers/galleries that you have talked to have thought about your idea.

Are they excited about it, or do they give off a more "ho-hum" vibe?
Are they willing to pay for the service? (In other words kick in part of the % that you need.)
Have they raised any thoughts/concerns/issues/ideas that we haven't covered here?


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## Garry (Oct 5, 2006)

Mike,
If you are interested in covering Northern Michigan and the Upper Peninsula (which is where I am located), I would be interested in talking to you. I already have galleries in Petoskey and Harbor Springs that I am making items for to sell in the future. It just so happens that my daughter has been educatated as a interior designer and she is the one that sold the galleries on my work.

Garry


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## Mike57 (Sep 18, 2007)

Hi JorgeG,

Thanks for the info!

I'll try to post a few items in the next couple of days. Right now, and last couple of days, I have been preparing for a presentation about what I have found so far to the review committee - happening tomorrow (Thursday)


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## Mike57 (Sep 18, 2007)

Hi Wes,

Not sure what the pricing will be - will want to get thoughts from readers here and elsewhere to find out what a fair price will be.

Thanks!
Mike


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## Mike57 (Sep 18, 2007)

Hi uffitze,

The interior designers that I have spoken to are very interested. They all have similar concerns - they don't have one place to go to find artists making unique items and don't have the time to spend digging around to find the right one. They have pointed me to a couple of resources that they use, but even those are not very complete.

They have brought up concerns about meeting deadlines among other things. I'll put more information out after I get through with my presentation tomorrow.

Thanks!
Mike


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## Mike57 (Sep 18, 2007)

Hi Garry,

Thanks for your post! I haven't really figured out how to best determine who to start representing first, so my answer right now wold be a qualified "yes". I took a quick peek at your projects and they look really nice. Let's kep talking and see how things work out.

Mike


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## Mike57 (Sep 18, 2007)

Hi everyone,

I am finally back from the presentation that originally drove me to toss out my original question. Presentation went OK. The panel wants me to quantify whether professional artists and artisans really would want this kind of sales support, and whether or not interior designers would be interested in having a tool to find local artisans.

I know we have had discussion on both sides of the coin - some saying "yes", others saying "no". If folks (from both "yes" and "no" sides) who currently sell their work have a moment, I would really appreciate your taking an online survey - it takes about 10 minutes to complete.

The web address is: http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/Artisans_Artists

Also if anyone is, or knows of an interior designer who would be willing to take a survey of their opinions about the idea, the web address for a separate survey for them is:

http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/interior_designer_survey

Thanks!
Mike


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## Mike57 (Sep 18, 2007)

Hi JorgeG,

It will definitely help. I want to get as many opinions as possible.

Thanks!
Mike


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

Well, here I am, late to the work party, just like a blister. In the past, I've sold what I would consider bottom-end stuff (birdhouses) to a craft gallery. They sold for double what I got. Not an issue, I was getting $6 a pop; they cost me about $1.25 for materials, and I could make 32 per hour. So, 32 time $1.25 is $40, and 32 times $6 is $192.

$192 - $40 = $152. Not bad for an hour's work. Note that this was through a contact at work, so I could bring them in and she'd load them up and take them to the craft store, which was run by her daughter. That was in the late '80s. She retired and I lost that deal. There was no time and mileage involved, so it was a pretty sweet setup, not common at all.

I don't begrudge them the markup, I made a pile, and they had a pile of overhead to cover. I'd like to see some more of that, I guess I could look around some.


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