# DUST all over everything...



## Charlie5791 (Feb 21, 2012)

I know it's a workshop and not my living room, but geeeeepers.

I have a small shop (16×18) I use a dust collector. It gets a lot of dust, but…. BUT … (and it's a big but)... I still have a coating of dust everywhere. Now, granted, I've been using the shop almost every day and it's been pretty crowded in there as I've been building cabinets and counter tops and all kinds of stuff for our kitchen remodel. Cutting the laminate flooring was the worst. HDF dust …. yuck. Also granted, I'm not always the best about cleaning up. I get so busy, I work 'til I'm worn out and then I go in and shower and go to bed…. then I get up and start going again.

I started cleaning in earnest because I ordered a jointer (GO654 from Grizzly) and REALLY needed to get out there and clear enough room to assemble it and park it. EVERY horizontal surface out there is dusty. I'm vacuuming with the shop vac, and cleaning everything up, but I see pictures of some shops and guys have a collection of planes hanging on the wall. Or I see some sawdust on the floor but all of the machines look clean.

Am I really just a slob and need to change my ways? I don't have the funds to buy an air cleaner for the shop and I strongly suspect it would help. I'm going to be looking for plans to build something. But it seems I'll still have dust all over flat surfaces. Does an air cleaner get all of the fine dust your DC system doesn't get? Only the stuff I keep in cabinets isn't dusty. Maybe I need to build more cabinets. I seem to do best with shallow cabinets (like a foot deep or so). I know I need SOME storage deeper than that, but I also know I'll cram a deep cabinet full of crap and forget what's in there.

Can y'all toss me some ideas on how to get organized and cleaner? How do you keep your shop clean? I know they aren't meant to be ********************-and-span clean, but ….. I have a lot of dust. 

All comments, suggestions, ideas, are appreciated.


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## renners (Apr 9, 2010)

I don't have the headroom for an overhead air cleaner. I installed a 6" centrifugal fan and ran two four inch ducts off a T piece in the ceiling at either end of the shop, over where I saw and spray to keep the air clean. The volume of air drawn through the fan is the equivalent of changing all the air in the workshop about 16 times an hour. It's vented directly outside. It made a big difference to the very fine dust and overspray, and didn't cost a lot.
The filter bag on your dust collector might be allowing very fine dust into the air, you could try a pleated filter if one is available to fit. The only other suggestion I have is to connect your shop vac to everything, everytime you do something.
My Makita half sheet sander sends out a jet of dust if it's not connected to the shop vac. Routing mdf is one of the dustiest operations you can do as well, so attach the shop vac to the router if you can.


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## Nicky (Mar 13, 2007)

renners brings up some good points. A pleated filter does a good job. If you route or sand without dust collection that's very problematic.

Effective dust collection happens at the source. Overall I'm very happy with my dust collection, but I too have a long way to go. My miter saw is a good example of poor dust collection. I can capture most of the dust, and what I can't capture finds it's way all over the shop. I don't have good collection when I use a router either, so it gets all over the shop.

To help, I've constructed a simple plywood box that houses three furnace type filters. The front uses a cheap filter that collects the large stuff, then two higher quality filters (merv 13) that gets the smaller guys (~1 micron.) The back is closed with a dust port installed (via a quick connect) that I hook up my dust collector. The filters are expensive ($14 per). The front filter is about $2.

I go through the same ritual before I start finishing a project. I'll open my garage door, use my air compressor to try and blow as much dust out as I can, and then will run the air clearer for a while prior to applying the finish. This is not pretty, it's what I do.

Oh BTW, I do try and keep the shop clean, but in reality when I have the choice I'll work on the project and procrastinate over the cleaning.


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## djg (Jun 24, 2012)

An air cleaner will help some. However there are several important components to dust collection. The first step is collection of the dust at the source. To do this you need a massive volume of air 800-1000 CFM at the machine and running through 6" ducts. The large volume of air will insure that you capture dust the attempts to escape from the shrouds of your machines. You need well designed shrouds for your machines an 6" duct ran directly to the machines. modify your ports if you must. Use a vacuum where you must. For example a miter saw is one of the worst tools for dust and the hardest to capture because it goes everywhere spinning off the blade as you cut. This machine needs both a dust collector and a vacuum. This all costs money and I know about that all too well. I spent 9 years working in filth. The only saving grace is that I always wear a dust mask regardless of how long I am in the shop. I decided to change my ways. To get the most dust you need to be conscious of creating it. Regardless of whether you need to make one cut or twenty cuts, turn on the collector. However, if your collector can't pull 800-1000cfm at the machine, you will always have a dusty shop.

Being clean is a matter of perspective. Your shop can look clean but have dangerously high levels of sub micron dust that you can't see. Read Bill Pentz's site. Best thing I ever did.


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## Finn (May 26, 2010)

I know what you mean about dust over everything. I will be moving to a new shop soon and am planning to install a dust collection system with 6" pipe as mentioned here: http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/ducting.cfm#DuctingDiamter
I had a 4" system and it just got the big stuff not the fine dust. I also have an air cleaner and it only gets what is near the ceiling where it is hung.


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

Someone mentioned it, to capture the finest dust, you need to move huge amounts of air, but you also need to separate that dust from the airstream and that takes tight filtration; 1 micron or better. Even 5 micron filters will blow a lot of the fine particles back into he shop. That said, even a world class DC system can't capture everything. There will be hand held power tools (and a few stationary ones) that just seem to be designed to defy dust collection (try hand routing MDF, and catching all the dust). That's when an ambient air cleaner will help, I ran mine for several hours before doing any finishing to reduce the dust nibs I would have. They do't do much for personal protection though, by the time an ambient AC catches the particels they have already entered your lungs, to some extent. So catching and containing as much as possible at the source is still the best first step.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

As others have said, a good dust collection system includes air filtration, as well as a good dust collector.

I, on the other hand, use the poor man's system. When the layer of dust on everything aggravates me enough, I go through the shop with a damp rag and a bucket of water. Wipe everything down, rinsing and wringing the rag frequently.

Don't do this to your cast-iron surfaces, of course, but it works fine on everything else.


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## A10GAC (Dec 21, 2009)

I work in a two car garage shop and fight the same battles you do. Things that help…

1) A half face respirator. I use a 3M 7500 series with P2091 cartridges..very comfortable and affordable. Amazon had a great price and free shipping.

2) A $20 box fan with a furnace filter strategically placed near the area I'm working.

3) All MDF work and a majority of the sanding is performed outside (only forgot to close the garage door once)

4) A leaf blower…no kidding…move the cars, open the door, and dust. If done on a rainy day the dust is immediately put down by the rain and doesn't blow back into the shop at all. Even on dry days, very little blows back in.


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## AJswoodshop (Mar 2, 2012)

Dust collectors are good, but they take up a lot of space. If you only have a (16+18), I would suggest getting a air filtration system. You can make your own and save a lot of money, or buy one for about $200. If you are going to only get one air filtration system, then you should buy it. But if your putting more than one filtration system, you should make them, you will save a lot of money. A shop take a lot of cleaning, my mom gets upset when I get sawdust in the house, that's just they way it works. Hope this helped.

Thanks,
AJ


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## Charlie5791 (Feb 21, 2012)

The piles are getting SMALLER! 
Just spent another 2 and a half hours cleaning the shop. MOST of it is now vacuumed. I have a 35 gallon metal garbage can full of crappy scraps and a couple piles of nasty old pieces (strips) of T-111 and/or plywood. That stuff is so bowed I'll never use it and it's not wide enough to even make a shelf. I'm saving plywood pieces that look like they could be used for something down to about 1 foot square. I have a handful (ok maybe TWO handfulls) of pieces on my rolling clamp rack to use as cawls. Hung a cabinet for stuff that I don't want to freeze. I can load it all in a box and take it inside for the winter when the time comes. I think I actually have ROOM for a jointer now.

Still more to do. I have wood on "lumber rack" that's probably just taking up space. Like some 3/8" t&g beadboard planks. I have some clear pine I completely forgot I even HAVE. I know that as soon as I get rid of the stuff I'm tossing, I'll come up with a use for a piece of it … ain't that always the way?

But the shop looks better and as I get stuff put away and organized I see that it will be easier to do the next task. Just another half hour and I think I'll have my table saw cleared off and the workbench that serves as outfeed for it. hehehhe.

But at some point I gotta stop and get a big pork shoulder ready for the smoker!


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## DaddyZ (Jan 28, 2010)

I, on the other hand, use the poor man's system. When the layer of dust on everything aggravates me enough, I go through the shop with a damp rag and a bucket of water. Wipe everything down, rinsing and wringing the rag frequently.

I just go through the shop with a 4" Paintbrush, when I get all my wiring fixed i will just go through with my Air hose & blow it all off & out the door…

A10GAC - Leaf blower great Idea !!!!


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

A clean shop is a shop that doesn't get much use. No DC is 100% perfect at collecting dust. Try running the DC in the dark and using a flashlight, observe how much dust comes from the DC filter.


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## Murdock (Aug 7, 2011)

The things I do have more or less been said already, but here it is anyway.

Since I do not (yet) have 'real' dust collection. I use my shop-vac attached to whatever machine I am using at that time. I also use that vac to do basic cleanup.

Then every so often when I think it is getting bad, I use the leaf blower method. Put a 20" box fan in the door blowing out on a relatively calm day (or the dust blows back in), put on ear, eye, and lung protection and blow away. I then leave the fan running for a while because some dust stays hanging in the air.


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## BTimmons (Aug 6, 2011)

Glad this topic is active. I came across Bill Pentz's site yesterday and it put the fear of sub-micron dust into me. What really struck a nerve is how I could be carrying the most dangerous and damaging invisible dust into my house and letting my wife and 2 year old daughter inhale that stuff. Both of them have allergy issues and I sure as hell don't want to be responsible for making them suffer.

According the review here, this particular dust collector from Harbor Freight is a great deal, provided you include a few upgrades, including a pleated filter and a cyclone separator. But this is the internet, so naturally I have questions.

DJG mentions - "The first step is collection of the dust at the source. To do this you need a massive volume of air 800-1000 CFM at the machine and running through 6" ducts."

According to the specs on Harbor Freight's website, this DC system pulls up to 1550 CFM, which certainly sounds good compared the 800-1000 CFM minimum. However, it uses 4 inch rather than 6 inch ducting. Is the extra power adequate to overcome the smaller duct size? Should I look at modifying it somehow to accommodate 6 inch ducts?

Also, if anyone owns this particular unit, can you comment on the noise level? Would it be necessary to build a small enclosure to house a DC system like this for dust containment and noise reduction?


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## Murdock (Aug 7, 2011)

Most of the time you can remove the factory supplied Y at the machine to get a larger duct. Others here would be much better at answering the specifics behind airflow though a smaller duct.


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

Factory CFM specs on almost all DC's are about as true as the 6.5 HP your shop vac has. The HF DC is considered one of the gems of their line, but don't get carried away. It's realistically a 1.5 HP motor (check the amps) with a 10" impeller (unless they changed it). If you check other units in this "class" you find they typically have 11" impeller's. Hook that to a 4" line and you get 400 CFM. I'm not knocking it at all, just saying to get the 800 CFM that Pentz suggests is going to take a whole lot more "oomph". The reason you see such varied opinions (more so on DC than other aspects of our hobby) is that everyone has a different set of expectations. They range from avoiding sweeping the floor to those who want to capture every possible spec of dust, and each of us has found (maybe) the solution to what we're after. So there's no errors in the assessments offered, but be sure they judge on criteria similar to yours.


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## BTimmons (Aug 6, 2011)

Well, that's a buzz kill. I just want to be able to work in a two car garage and not die of dust-induced lung cancer before I'm 40. Realistically, how much of a powerful system do I really need just to keep myself safe in a small area?

If I can do like Murdock suggests, remove the Y connector and install a 6 inch duct, how much of a difference would that make?


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## crank49 (Apr 7, 2010)

There is nothing wrong with the HF 2hp unit at all. 
The diameter of the impeller is just part of the picture.
The width of the scroll, closeness of the impeller to scroll fit, rpm of the impeller.
You just can't make a blanket statement that a product will produce a certain airflow because it's a certain size. Just doesn't work like that.

Also, the HF collector has a 5" fan inlet, not 4".
The 5" inlet splits into two 4".
To keep the flow balanced, however, you should restrict one of those to 3" and leave the other 4". That will be equal to the flow through a 5". 
I run the 3" to my band saw or belt/disk sander, and the 4" to my TS or Jointer.
It handles these two inlets open just fine.

Where it is lacking is the 5 micron bag. It needs to be a larger sub micron bag, or a pleated cartridge.
Another good addition is a drop-out box or thein baffle system in the circuit before the fan. This saves wear and tear on the fan and reduces the frequency of emptying the bag.

Considering the air flow I have I think I probably have about 600 cfm on the 5" pipe. That's about 4400 fpm velocity and I don't think this machine has enough static pressure to do much more than that. Neither does anyone elses 2 hp machine. It's a matter of watts of energy consumed by the system. Watts, pressure and airflow have a direct relationship; in all collector systems.
If the fan inlet were 6", the flow would probably be about 800 cfm, 4200 fpm.

Don't think you can open the fan inlet up to 6" though. It will surely cause the motor to overload and fry.
And, putting a 6" pipe on a 5" fan does nothing except increase the cost of your system.


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## Finn (May 26, 2010)

....."Would it be necessary to build a small enclosure to house a DC system like this for dust containment and noise reduction?....." ///////////////////// A good point. I am planning to put my dust collector outside my shop and build a small enclosure for it and try to deaden the sound with insulated walls but still vented to the outside to get rid of the fine dust that passes through the bag filter.


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## djg (Jun 24, 2012)

I'm on board with Fred. I don't want to knock anybody or anything but to really understand the dust collection problem you need to first understand that there is a market for dust collection, marketing dictates that good numbers sell product. Unfortunately, these "good" numbers prey off of how uneducated we are about the science of dust collectors and ducting systems. Unless there is a fan performance curve of some sort you have no real world data. Well, you actually do. You have two data points: the maximum CFM with the inlet open and the maximum static pressure with the inlet closed and moving no air. There's no data in between so the numbers are useless.

@crank49 everything you have said makes sense and you have some great suggestions. The only point I would like to add is that until you have a way to measure that air flow, your gut feeling may lead to a false sense of security about your dust collection. Without real airflow numbers and a way to monitor your situation (maybe a particle counter) it's hard to say how your dust collection is working. Remember it's the stuff that you can't see that's the most dangerous.

@Jim Putting the collector outside is a good option. Figuring out how to recycle the shop air may be a problem. One option is to run the collector inside, but vent to the outside. You would need a way to make up clean air so your shop will not be under vacuum! This may cause issues for gas heaters and the like. The addition of a filter adds static pressure to the collector, removing the filter decreases the static pressure and increases airflow. As long as the static pressure for you duct system is high enough you wouldn't risk burning up the motor. Running it without the duct system attached may pose a risk to the motor.

@BTimmons My shop is attached to the garage. I had the same worries as you. I realized quite quickly that a 1HP machine wasn't enough. With the money I had spent I realized that it was wasted. I am now pleased with my set up…it wasn't cheap but I have some more peace of mind. Hopefully my Dylos Particle counter will give me good numbers when I get it. Time will tell.


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## Kelby (Oct 19, 2011)

I started out like most-no DC, and a thick layer of dust and chips everywhere. Then I went to a 1-1/2 HP DC with 4" ducts, which picked up the chips but still left a thick layer of dust everwhere.

When I moved and set up my new shop, one of my first projects was to completely re-do my dust collection system. I switched to a 2 HP mobile cyclone and 6" ducts. What a huge difference. No chips or dust in the shop, for the most part.

I say "for the most part." There are still a couple of tools I need to hook up to the DC (eg, miter saw), and on certain cuts my table saw spits off a bit of dust. I'm going to keep working on those things. But my shop now stays clean and comfortable.

Getting to this point was not easy or cheap. I spent about $1500 in ductwork and about $1000 on the cyclone. It is easy to spend more than that. And I still have more to do. But the transformation has been enormous.

The health benefits are self-evident. I can now work a full day in the shop without sneezing and without my wife waking me in the middle of the night to tell me to stop snoring. But just as meaningful to me is the enjoyment factor. This is my hobby. It is supposed to be fun. Dust is uncomfortable and tiring. I enjoy spending more hours in the shop comfortably working. It is well worth the investment.

The HF dust collector will get you by and do an OK job. But if you upgrade to a cyclone (I would probably choose at least 3HP rather than 2HP if I were doing it again) and good 6" ducts, you will notice an enormous difference.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

My ideas about DC are different from most other people. There are two types of woodworking machines; one produces dust and the other produces chips. My DC system concentrates on the dust producing machines only. Chips ae heavy and just fall to the floor. They don't float around in the air. Where I live, I have no neighbors, so I exhaust dust directly to the outdoors, without any filters to restrict airflow. You may not have that luxury due to neighbor constraints, but you could terminate your exhaust from the DC through a filter located outside the shop. My DC is the HF 1.5 HP. I scrapped everything and kept only the blower and motor. I use a separator (55 gal drum) to collect sawdust and chips. I use 4" duct (sch 35 PVC pipe) and keep the runs short. My needs are less than most, so I keep the DC hooked up to my table saw. If I need to collect dust from some other machine, I just switch hoses.


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

Dust is inevitable.

I use the dust collector, but, every now and then, I end up using the leaf blower to scrub down the walls, ceiling and fixtures.

Every shop I've ever worked in, regardless of how good the dust collection is, has to contend with the accumilation of fine dust everywhere. Just be glad you're not working with Paduak everyday. (Bright red dust and tastes bad too)

If you're not making dust, you're not making money.


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## BTimmons (Aug 6, 2011)

OK, trying to mentally organize what I'm learning here.

Things that will help improve my dust collection:

1) Being able to afford a dust collector at all (I'm not even close)
2) Enclosing the DC to keep noise down
3) Ducts larger than 4", 6 if possible
4) Keep ducting as short as possible so as to not lose suction
5) Running exhaust outside, also with short ducting
6) Use pleated filter and Thien separator, replace bags with plastic or metal trash can
7) Consider a 2 HP system as the bare minimum
8) Hook DC system up to only one large tool at a time, I use the TS a lot anyway

Are there any other crucial points I'm missing?


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## longgone (May 5, 2009)

If you work with wood you are going to have dust…a fact of life and for me it is a constant ongoing battle.
I have a dust collector and it is mounted under my stairs and enclosed plus sound insulation in the wall. Quiets it considerably. It is hooked to all of my saws but I still get dust and constantly have to vacuum up.

For sanding I enclosed a 6ft x 8 ft section of my shop and have my dust collector hooked to the downdrft sanding table. I also have three filter boxes boxes I built using squirrel cage blowers and each has 2 pleated filters. It gets like a wind tunnel in there. They are fastened to the outside walls of my sanding room and do a great job. I also wear a Trend Air Shield Pro (Darth Vader Helmet). It might be overkill but I probably generate more sawdust that most people because if the extensive grinding and sanding do.


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## BTimmons (Aug 6, 2011)

Greg, I bet you make a lot more dust than most with the way you make boxes. What kind of DC system are you running? How much horsepower, duct size, etc.?


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## longgone (May 5, 2009)

Brian…I have an Onieda Air Super Dust Gorilla. It is a cyclone system than moves about 1440 cfm. 220v system. It is a Baldor motor and I believe it is 3 hp. It starts out with 8" duct work and branches out to 4" 
I am very satisfied with it.


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