# Electrical Mystery



## brownkm (Feb 9, 2008)

Not exactly "Safefy in the Shop", more like "Safety in the Home", but here goes:

We're having some strange electrical things going on in our house. Power will shut off at random times on some of the circuits. When this happens, the breakers are *not* tripping at any point. After a random amount of time (30 minutes to 6 hours), the circuit will become live again. This happens on seemingly unrelated circuits - sometimes it's the outlets in the kitchen, other times it's the lights in the bedrooms. When I plug my GB circuit tester into an outlet with a problem, it's reading "open hot". When power is on, however, the same outlet reads "correct".

I can't figure out what might be wrong - I could understand if a loose connection on one circuit was causing it to drop in and out, but how could that cause a problem on outlets on an entirely different breaker? This only started happening 2 weeks ago or so.

Any suggestions would be appreciated… the electrician wants $75 an hour to look for the problem, and the miser in me hates to pay him to "dig around" for the problem, when I could do the digging myself…

-Kevin


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

You probably have a lose connection on the incoming power, in the meter base, the main lugs of the panel or in the main breaker.


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## dfarr (Jan 1, 2009)

It sounds like you may be losing a phase of your incoming service. It could be in your panel where your service conductors terminate or possibly your main breaker. If your service comes in overhead you could have a bad connection at the weatherhead. Wherever it is chances are it is heating up and has the potential to start a fire. If you know someone with an IR camera it might be the quickest way to find it. I would go ahead and pay the $75. That's pretty cheap compared to the cost of a potential fire.


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## fredf (Mar 29, 2008)

strange for sure. are you loosing the outlets in the kitchen BUT NOT the lights in the kitchen one time and lights in the kitchen BUT NOT the outlets in the kitchen another time?


> or could you be loosing both and not noticing one or the other


??

if you are loosing several circuits at one time, you probably have lost one side of the line some where. the power comes into the house on TWO hot wires, the voltage between these wires is 240v. each wire to ground is 120v. if one of them opens some where you will loose power to half your circuits, (generally every other row of breakers) 220 volt appliances wont work either, tho if you turn on your electric stove or other large 240v appliance the missing lights might come on, at least dimly

We had a problem at one point where we lost one side of the line due to a loose connection in the meter socket. pay the electrician. if you have a loose connection the next step is a FIRE!!!!!! we had to get the meter socket replaced as it was rather burned up

Please post the solution when you figure it out.


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## brownkm (Feb 9, 2008)

*Fred*: Now, that's the first thing I've heard that begins to make sense to me… I don't know for sure if the lights always go off when the kitchen outlets do… but I *do* know that when the kitchen outlets go down, the electric stove (220 outlet) goes down at the same time.

I think I will call in a different electrician though, because the guy who was here today didn't seem to have half as much idea what was going on as you have…


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## ChunkyC (Jun 28, 2009)

The first place I'd look is the panel. Checking for rust first off. If I see rust, then water is getting into the panel from the weather head, meter socket, so on. If you have a rusty inside to your panel, time to find where the water is getting in, fix that then replace the panel. Rust could be causing high resistance connections.

The other thing I would check is the connection at the top of panel where the wires connect to the bus (I'm assuming a top fed panel, on the bottom for a bottom fed panel.) I would bet that one of the "hot" wires is loose. This sounds more like what your describing. Sound's like your loosing one side of the transformer so everything connected to that side to neutral will go dead, "open hot" and you will loose all 240V appliances, stove, furnace, H20 heater, ... too.

Now I say this like you know exactly what the dangers are inside of an electrical panel. The smart thing for most people is to call you local electrician! The last thing you want is to start mucking around with the incoming leads and have it come loose and start swinging around! You can also pull the meter to kill the panel, fix the problem, stick the meter back in and then call the power company and tell them that you had to pull the meter to fix a problem with the panel. Shhhh I've done this before. Check you local code enforcement first. Sometimes the utility want reconnect the meter (put the seal back on) without a licensed electrician on hand.

cc


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## mgoins (Nov 2, 2009)

Good evening, Kevin. Have been a short-term lurker to the site the last few weeks - saw this post & decided to join to post an answer. Not sure the geography / wildlife situation where you live, but this may help.

Was talking to my father-in-law on Friday - who was having similar problems at his home here in town. Scattered electrical problems thru-out his house w/no breaker kicks. He got nervous of a fire & basically shut off everything but lighting; and called in an electrician.

Electricians noticed voltage fluctuations on several circuits & recommended calling in the power company. Power company techs found that squirrels had chewed into the wire out at the pole. Damaged wire was repaired & the issues were resolved.

-Marvin in Kingsport, TN


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## oldworld124 (Mar 2, 2008)

You can most likely find out which of the two incoming lines has a problem by noting which circuits are going off and on. The two bars inside the panel zigzag down the middle. If all of the circuits that are giving you problems are connected (via the breakers) to only one of the bars in the panel, you will have isolated the side that needs attention. You could also have a problem with both hot lines in the panel. A qualified electrician should be able to solve the problem quickly.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

You nailed it John!! "qualified" Lots of people can run wire, but very few are good at fixing it when it's broke ;-))


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## cpt_hammer (Dec 18, 2007)

Five surgeons were taking a coffee break and were discussing their work.

The first said, "I think accountants are the easiest to operate on. You open them up and everything inside is numbered."

The second said, "I think librarians are the easiest to operate on. You open them up and everything inside is in alphabetical order."

The third said, "I like to operate on electricians. You open them up and everything inside is color-coded."

The fourth one said, "I like to operate on lawyers. They're heartless spineless, gutless, and their heads and their tails are interchangeable."

The fifth surgeon says "I like engineers . They always understand when you have a few parts left over at the end."


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## cbMerlin (Jan 13, 2009)

I had, sort of, a similar issue. My local power company offered, free of charge, to come out, pull the meter, check & tighten the main lugs. He also checked to see the number of homes pulling from the same "sub??", sorry I don't recall what he called it. Additionally, I was considering either a new panel for higher amp service and more circuits or installing a sub-panel. He was able to pull some sort of report that told my historical power useage. Turned out a sub panel was fine, saved me a lot of cash! I'd start with your power company, they may be able to do a lot to help with little or no cost involved.


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## lumberdustjohn (Sep 24, 2009)

Sounds like a loose or almost broken connection. Does your power come in at a weather head?
If so, I would check there. If you put too large of a load on a bad connection it will open, like the stove.
It may work and appear ok with a test meter or with a few lights. 
Some of the circuits may appear to be ok ( a light may work) when a water heater or other 220 volt devise is on allowing it to back feed through the circuit.

Heat builds up from a poor connection.

Sounds like an Electrician is needed.


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## hootr (Mar 28, 2009)

PLEASE get an electrition in there asap!!!
before a fire inspetor has to tell you what caused the fire


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Been there….done that, and it was caused by losing a phase as dfarr and topomaxsurvivor said. In my case, the incomeing service was underground, and the bad connection was at the vault near the street. As already stated, call the power company first because the problem is very possibly on their side of the meter, and they'll fix it no charge.


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## RJ2 (Jan 14, 2008)

If you have been seeing an increase in light bulbs going out , it is usually a loose ground at the street . That is assuming you have checked your panel, and tightened the lugs. Once a year if your entrance cable is aluminum.
If they are loose when you take the cover off , turn off the lights and you can see the stray voltage.


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## fredf (Mar 29, 2008)

DaveR thats what I was going to recommend if only one circuit failed at a time. -but I suspect it is both and SB is on his way to getting it fixed.

SB I agree if the electrician didn't have a clue, find one that does-it isn't exactly rocket science . . . and nothing to fool with if you aren't familiar with it….


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## GaryC (Dec 31, 2008)

You wanna take donations to pay for the electrician? I'd rather chip in for that than for flowers!


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## cordlessdrillryobi (Nov 2, 2009)

WOW! I think either Fred or Dave is correct on this one but Gary has a point too. In my opinion just as you have already heard it here and in your head, have an electrician check it out Buddy, because your safety is more important than a couple of hundred bucks, especially if you have others living there with you. If that doesn't pan out, call those guys from the TV show TAPS, you may just have a haunting. LOL! "Good Luck" 
I wish I could have been more helpful, but guessing without being able to be there to help you check it out, is like a shot in the dark.

Cordlessdrillryobi


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Call the power company and say it's an emergency


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## dusty2 (Jan 4, 2009)

It might be an emergency…in the making!


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## DTWoodknot (Sep 4, 2009)

Kevin
As a licensed Master Electrician in the state of Mass. my advise is call an electrician. it does sound like the problem is on the incoming service some were between the main breaker and the pole it could be any were in between. most likely a loose or bad connection

```
the main breaker, meter or weather head these items should be checked by an electrician if nothing is found then have the power company check the service wire from the pole to the house. I have seen this issue several times before once it was a bad main breaker (damaged by water following the wires into the panelbecause the weater head was not seal properly) another time it was a loose connection
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 the weather head and when the wind kicked up power was lost. your situation is dangerous and could start a fire as other have stated so hopeful by now you have had it looked at if not don't wait. good luck and please let us know what is found.


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## KentS (May 27, 2009)

Call an electrician!
We (as in mostly woodworkers) could spend all day making wild guesses while your house burns down.
and this comes from someone who also hates paying the price. I wired my shop after an electrician installed the panel, but I would be afaid of a problem like that.


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## Dadoo (Jun 23, 2007)

DTWoodknot said it best…call a real electrician. I suspect your main breaker is worn out or you have an imbalance on your line (too many circuits operating on one side). Regardless, calling a "real" electrician is your best bet.

Then after it's fixed, please post the cause here so we'll all know what it was.


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## fredf (Mar 29, 2008)

I hope Kevin is making out ok, he hasn't been on in 3 days . . . . does anyone have any news???


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## brownkm (Feb 9, 2008)

Thanks for all the tips guys & the checking up - here's the story so far:

Called one electrician - he wanted to climb up in the attic to look at the ceiling fans, was sure (without looking!) that the problem was not in the circuit box. That was exactly in contradiction to all the sense spoken here, so I declined him.

Next step was to call the power company - they sent somebody, he thought the power on their end was okay, so he was kind enough to look in the breaker box - he found one breaker on the dryer line (240V) that was partly melted away - he though if I replaced that, everything would be fine.

So I went to the hardware store and got a new 30A breaker, and put that in. That fix lasted for about 4 hours, and last night the same 1/2 of our power went out for 4 hours again… but this morning it was back on. So I suppose now I'll call another electrician, but I'm afraid he'll just blame the problem on the power company, and then we'll get lost in a vicious circle of the "blame game"... certainly starting to get frustrated.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I have always been well prepared for this kind of thing. I am a master electrician and was a volunteer fireman until the district went all paid. ) On the more serious side, if it is in the meter base or panel, a loose connection can damage them to the point of required replacement. If it is corrected early, it's usually a simple fix. The longer it goes, the more serious it is likely to become.

DTwoodknot, you'll get a kick out of this. I was on a service call to a gas station with water in the panel. I couldn't find any way for it to get in. Only one or 2 breakers in the middle of the row were wet. They were for a canopy lighting circuit. I went out on the roof of the canopy to find no cover on a condulet in the lighting conduit run. Wires were spliced in it. The water was running down the wire between the insulation and the conductor to the breaker in the panel!! In western WA, the condulet was full of rain water about 9 months of the year)


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Safetyboy, guess you were posting at the same time I was. You need a guy with enough sense to turn on a light or two and rattle things a bit and watch for the lights to flicker. You can do it yourself. Without opening the panel since you are not an electrician, turn on all the lighs, have your other half watch in the rooms the problems are occuring. Take a rubber hammer handle or something and bang on the panel and meter base a little bit. Not hard enough to do damage!! Just a good solid rap to cause some vibration. If you don't get any flickers, it's probably on the power company end on incoming conductors connections. By the way, unplug all your expensive electronics until this is solved.


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## DTWoodknot (Sep 4, 2009)

I wish I could look at your problem myself! Breakers don't just melt they have to get dam hot to melt typicaly they would need to be extremly over loaded (and not trip) or have a bad connection to get that hot. I would tell who ever you get to come out to check the Main breaker to make sure it is operational and its connections on the line side then check all the connections in the meter socket it may mean having the power comany there as well if the meter is locked. how old is your electrical service? I would find another Electrician maybe a larger company that does service work and give them a call. good luck.


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## fredf (Mar 29, 2008)

did the power company open the meter socket?????

The burned breaker likely due to loose wires.

Is there any chance your house is wired with aluminum??? that stuff is BAD NEWS. Often aluminum is used for larger sizes, for example stove, and for the main line coming from the weather head, but should have compound on it to eliminate oxidation problems. The Al wire tends to creep and loosen the connections over time
if not sure ask the electrician, perhaps he can show you what maintenance steps to take to keep an eye on it if that is the case.

Thanks for the update, I was beginning to worry that there had been a major incident!


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## SUPERDOG683 (Nov 3, 2009)

lot of good tips posted.
i bought foreclosure project house 2 yrs back.
very similar issue. mine was main line from the pole is alum
and was loose and coroded.
unplug expensive electronics or at least move them to
the good circuit. my problem was corrected in under a week
but it still fried a 1yr old 35 inch tv.
also you can feel wires for heat ie about 1-3 feet from
the panel touch each wire and see if any of them are warm 
note only touch 100% intact insulated wires
can also feel around the box ie get close to but dont touch
the box,input wire,circuit breakers etc. if any of these wires or circuit
are hot to the touch shut them off until fixed.
note i am assuming you are handy and know some basic elec.
i install everything except the main line and meter.
also you cant expect elec. to figure this out in 5 min.
you paid for the hour make sure you use it. me thinks you arent
giving the elec. enough room to figure this out. if someone is a registered electritician
its pretty hard to be a dumb ass. i mean a 30 or 40 yr old elec. has wired 500 homes
many which are far more complex.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Unfortunately, just because an electrician has a license and has wired a lot of projects doesn't mean he (she) knows anything about trouble shooting. If an electrician knows how to trouble shoot, there isn't much that can go wrong in residential wiring that can't be diagnosed in less than half an hour. I have a few horror stories about customers who had paid several hundred dollars to an "electrician" and still had the problem. Then I show up and fix it and leave in under an hour. I don't know what the answer is, but the licensing process should have a designation separating an installer from someone who really can find the problem. Too bad Safetyboy has already experienced this.

The comment about moving expensive equipment to a working circuit is bad advise. This doesn't sound like a loose neutral or grounding problem, but if it turns out to be, the voltage on the working circuits can go up close to 200 volts depending on the loads that get put in series by the missing connection. Those kinds of voltages will destroy all the spendy electronics connected to it. The heavy duty items like the frig motor will be just fine.

As for breakers melting in the panel, I've seen a lot of them. Even though they all have UL listing, the thermal only ones don't always trip when the prescribed amount of current passes through. I'm not sure about the current production as I haven't done residential work for 25 years, but Sq D and Cutler Hammer used to have magnetic trips in addition to the thermal device. They did trip when overloaded. One way to demonstrate this is to put a paper clip in and outlet. Turn on the power. If the clip burns before the breaker trips, it is thermal only. If the breaker trips with out any visible sign of burning, it is a magnetic trip device. If it doesn't trip, and there are breakers which have been pulled off the market, like Zinsco, that would hold excessive overloads on a regular basis, you are in trouble. You don't even want that brand of panel in you house!!

Aluminum wire is used almost exclusively for service conductors and larger feeders. The problem is installation and maintenance. It needs to have a corrosion inhibitor on it and the connections should be checked every couple of years to make sure they are tight. Aluminum has not been legal for small branch circuits like lights and outlets since the late 60's.


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## fredf (Mar 29, 2008)

TopamaxSurvivor: actually branch aluminum was still around in the early to mid 70's. I don't recall exactly when it was outlawed. no where near soon enough!

FPE (Federal Pacific Electric) was another great breaker. Internal parts made of steel. rusted. I used to have a pair of linesmans with a "stripper notch" the FPE breaker never tripped! Their electric baseboard heat wasn't much better . . . FPE breakers were pulled a few years ago too. for some reason the company is no longer in business


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

WA may have been on the leading edge of getting rid of AL for branch circuits. I don't recall when the National Code outlawed it. It should never have been allowed 

There are a lot of brands that could and would do that :-(( When I installed residential panels, I told people if they didn't want to spend the $$ for Sq D or Cutler Hammer, i would not do the work. Zinsco and FPE getting a UL listing sort of makes you wonder what all the fuss is about, doesn't it ?? )


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## cbMerlin (Jan 13, 2009)

Not sure I would want to feel wire for heat 1-3 feet from the panel. Not knowing what the problem is yet, I wouldn't want to run the risk of grapping a wire that may have missing insulation that I can't see and only "feel". I run a restaurant for my "real" job and recently had a problem. I kept catching a very faint burning plastic smell. In the restaurant world, that could have been a hundred different things. I took my infrared, none contact thermometer, opened the panels (I have four), and ran the light beam slowly up & down the rows of breaker. They were in the 70-75 degree range, then all of the sudden I hit one and it jumped up over 150! I used a wooden broom stick to shut off that breaker (no way I was touching anything) and called the electrician. I showed the electrician what I had found. The first thing out of his mouth was "I gotta get me one of those!". He was able to replace the breaker which showed signs of over-heating. I also had him check all the breakers in all the panels, a number of them needed tightening. I probably saved myself some cash by a little pre-diagnosis, saving the electrician time. Just idea if you want to check for heat build up, never know what you may find. These infrared thermometers are really cool tools, not that anyone here would want another tool or anything LOL, you just point a beem of light at something and take it's temp


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## fredf (Mar 29, 2008)

cbMerlin- Great idea!!!!!! I too need to get me one of those!!!!


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Infrared thermal imagining is the tool of choice for preventive maintenance. I would have one if I did that kind of work. The calls I get are reactive. After 40 yrs, I have a pretty good idea where to feel and where not to put my fingers)

One thing the average home / shop owner can do is turn off all the power in the panel. Check the connections to be sure they are all tight. Remember when you turn the main breaker off, those big wires coming in are still hot!! Don't forget to check the neutrals and grounds too, the whites and bares. They are more important to the safety of the system than the hots. The incoming power is probably aluminum. You should see some sort of grease on it. It is rare to find it all behind the connection and no evidence of it being visible.

Another thing is to feel the breakers for a hot one with the panel cover ON!! The panel cover is tested to contain any problem that develops in the panel. It is normal for a heavily loaded breaker to feel warm. They have heaters to operate the thermal trip mechanism unless they are magnetic trip. If they are too hot to comfortably hold your hand against, there is most likely a problem developing. If the breakers deteriorate too far, they can damage the panel to the point it has to be replaced.

Most of all, if you don't feel comfortable doing any of this, call a pro. If what he is doing doesn't make sense to you or he can't explain the whats and whys, get someone who can or will. Remember, residential power circuits are very simple and basic. A competent electrician should diagnose most problems in an hour or two at the most. Occasionally, there may be an intermittent problem like the one that started this thread that make take more time to resolve, but normally wiggling the obvious connections will find it in short order.


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## DTWoodknot (Sep 4, 2009)

. safetyboy
Lots of good advice from these guys. Maybe you should have the next electrician that comes out to look at the problem read this post if he can't figure it out. 
Topamaxsurvivor 
here's one you might like, about 20 years ago I was doing a service change in an old cape cod cottage my boss sent me in side to do the panel while he made up the outside, I look around the house for about a 1/2 hour and final went back outside to ask were the panel was??? as it turn out it was in the bath room and the home owner had mounted a mirror to the cover and hinges when I opened it there was a razor, comb, nail clippers and aspirin among the wires and fuses holders! The guy had been using it as a medicine cabinet. I think this guy was a little too comfortable! LOL


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## BurtC (Oct 30, 2009)

I had a simular problem at my home a couple years ago. One day I heard a thump at corner of the home outside and looked out the window. A tree limb had fallen and my entrance line was bouncing. Then a couple weeks later I had lost what appeared to be half the power in the house. Looked up at the pole and seen one cable (leg) dangling loose. Power company came out and re-crimped the connection, not problems since then.
No charge, thank you.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

That is a good one Dave ) One service call I'll never forget was half the house out of power. Only 120 in the panel. I pulled the meter base and there were insulators on the prongs. Obvioulsy the resident hadn't paid the bill and the power company put the insulators on one side instead of both on the incoming line. I told the home owner, he said to take them off. I told him I couldn't do that. He said he hadn't gotten his third notice yet, I ask Huh? He said he always paid on his third notice!! He picked up the phone and started to give the power company a bad time about not gettng his his thrid notice. I made sure I got a check and cashed it for cash at his bank!!


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## Chewylu103 (Nov 21, 2009)

Have you considered that there is a breaker in the panel thats over loaded and stuck on the "on" position heating up the busbar? i would check that out


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## DTWoodknot (Sep 4, 2009)

safetyboy - did you ever get to the bottom of your electrical issue?


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## RJ2 (Jan 14, 2008)

I just went back to this post because I was curious of the final outcome. I am still willing to bet it was a loose lug in the panel due to the expansion of the aluminum entrance cable . I have 3 panels in the house and one night the upstairs went dead. Thats when I discovered the need to tighten the lugs on the disconnect panels downstairs .


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## Knothead62 (Apr 17, 2010)

Has the power company done any work in your area? I had a problem in Kentucky when the power company connected a new transformer wrong. They didn't ground it properly. One light in a room would be so bright, it would blind you and another room would be so dim, you had to light a match to see if the bulb was on. Also, fried our clock radio, which the insurance from the power comapny paid for.


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## brownkm (Feb 9, 2008)

Pulled out the first 30A breaker we got from the HW store, took that back and put in another new one - and everything has been fine since (all summer, actually). Thanks for all the suggestions.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

it is really scary to see how many people are willing to gamble with their lives and the family as well!!!!!!!!!even home electrical systems are dangerous.i have been an IBEW electrician for almost 35 years and reading the above guesses scares me. if you screw up a piece of wood, buy a new one. bad plumbing gets you wet. bad electrical work gets you DEAD!!!!!! tnough said. i will not give advice to anyone because of the legal world today. call a qualified, INSURED contractor. PLEASE!!!


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