# global warming



## GMman (Apr 11, 2008)

Could global warming turn Canada into a superpower?

25/09/2010 7:39:17 AM

Andy Johnson 
By the year 2050 Canada could be enjoying newfound status as a global superpower blessed with a developed north, plenty of fresh water, a growing population and new shipping lanes through the Arctic.

That's the theory put forward in Laurence C. Smith's new book "The World in 2050"-a scientific exploration of the effects of climate change over the next 40 years.

According to Smith's 40-year projection, global warming will free up northern natural resources such as oil, gas and water. That in turn will attract immigrants and lead to new infrastructure and development for northern rim countries-NORCs, as he calls them-at a time when southern countries will be running out of resources and seeing their populations fall.

The north will also warm up, meaning fewer and fewer of those -40 Celsius days that tend to grind productivity to a halt.

But this is not a reason to celebrate, Smith is quick to point out. While Canada, Russia, the Scandinavian countries and northern U.S. will see significant benefits from a warming planet, the rest of the world will suffer catastrophic losses.

"Most climate change is overwhelmingly negative, I'm not a Pollyanna," he told CTV.ca from his office at UCLA, noting that we are already experiencing the harsh effects of a warming planet.

"The pine beetle is devastating B.C. timber and summer heat waves knocked out 30 per cent of Russia wheat crop, so it would be disingenuous of me to suggest all of this spells nothing but good news. But alongside the bad news there will be some beneficial changes."

Smith, a scientist and professor of geography and earth sciences at the University of California Los Angeles, set out four years ago to write a book about the negative effects of climate change in the north.


----------



## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

It could but it's just not happening except in the minds of people like Al Gore.


----------



## jbertelson (Sep 26, 2009)

Common bumper sticker in Anchorage:

ALASKANS FOR GLOBAL WARMING

All that tundra and spruce swamp country is going to have to dry out a lot in the US and Canada before you see people moving in….............


----------



## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

Canada is such a beautiful country…well 2 months out of the year anyway


----------



## boboswin (May 23, 2007)




----------



## GMman (Apr 11, 2008)

Al Gore what a clown.
I did not write that just posted it. 
You don't want to believe all you read on the net or the paper.


----------



## rivergirl (Aug 18, 2010)

Hey I love the pine beetle… it makes great natural distress marks in the wood when it kills the tree-  And global warming? Hey I could use a few extra degrees around here most of the time… And anyway.. where did all those dinosaurs go? Haiil Canada and on word and upward to become a dominating force in world shipping..


----------



## jusfine (May 22, 2010)

Bob, that was a very interesting clip.

Hey Abbott, thanks!

This year we managed *almost three weeks of decent weather* if you string all the days together, so feels like we are going the other way.

I think Alaska is crushing in on us…


----------



## hokieman (Feb 14, 2008)

The enviro-nuts want to drop the atmospheric Carbon dioxide (CO2) concentration from 400 to 300 parts per million. Let me put that in perspective. You ever been to an NBA stadium or NHL rink? They all hold about 20,000 seats. Do you know how many seats 400 parts per million is? 8. 8 seats out of 20,000. It is miniscule. Now if we drop the CO2 concentration by 100 parts per million (from 400 to 300) that is like taking 2 seats out of the building. See the difference? Let me put it another way. There are 10 seconds left in the game, home team down by 1. The sold-out crowd is going crazy. You can hardly hear yourself think. 2 fans decide to go and get a hot dog. Hear the difference? No, shhhh! Listen! Yeah, I didn't think so. That is what we are talking about here, a miniscule difference in a naturally occurring gas that is key to life on earth. Without CO2 in the atmosphere, no plant life as plants rely on photosynthesis for life which requires CO2 in the atmosphere.

Now, consider if we did cap and trade. Would that make a difference when China and India have told the world go pound sand?

All this global warming stuff is a scam intended to make the guys like Al Gore fabulously rich in the carbon trading market. It is also backed by socialistic governments so they can "spread the wealth". Sound like a familiar phrase?


----------



## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Ice samples from the Antartic show atmospheric Carbon dioxide (CO2) is a result of warming, not the cause. We are definitely warming. Declassified information from the Artic subs going under the polar cap show that 1/2 the artic ice has already melted. Harbors in the north are freezing 2 weeks later and opening 10 days earlier than they were in the early 70's. Is man the cause? Doubtful. WE have been in a 10,000 year anomoly. The earth's climate has never been this stable for this long.


----------



## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

One more thing; don't forget the Atlantic pump will slow down and make the world cooler as the salinity of the sea water is lessened by melting ice ;-))

Canada looks more like an ice berg: http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100055500/global-cooling-and-the-new-world-order/


----------



## BobG (Apr 17, 2010)

Seems to me I've read somewhere that the earth goes into an ice age cycle every 10,000 years? I also understand that we are almost 5,000 years overdue. I ask does this sound real or can we start another rumor and make some Al Gore money off of it? Oh, another question. Do you suppose man has caused this too? The great industrialization? All the cow farts that we have emitting methane gas? Don't bother me I'm pondering!


----------



## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

There is no question that man can become a better steward of his resources.
The large imaginary step is that man is responsible ffor climate change.

Science, as you point out BobG, does not support this.

It seems our biggest problem in the immediate future is the increase in the human population and conserving both land and resources to fed ourselves in the future without destroying the habitat that makes it all possible.


----------



## GMman (Apr 11, 2008)

Since you brought up the human population subject, I was told long time ago in school that wars are needed to decrees the human population.


----------



## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

That was before the pill. How old are you anyway? <g>


----------



## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

The Global warming alarmists like to scare people with the melting Western Antarctic ice shelf while not mentioning that the much, much larger Eastern Antarctic ice shelf has been steadily cooling and expanding for years. Antarctica has 90 percent of the Earth's ice and 80 percent of its fresh water.


----------



## BobG (Apr 17, 2010)

GMman I had a 9th grade history teacher that taught that idiot thought to all his history classes!
For that and various other reasons 3 of his students in the 8th month of class actually through him out the second story window.

He landed in a bunch of Arborvitae bushes that cushioned his fall.

He didn't raise that subject again that year.


----------



## GMman (Apr 11, 2008)

Good one BobG
Bob#2 i will let you guess


----------



## rivergirl (Aug 18, 2010)

Hey all I know is that I want some of that global warming here in western Pennsylvania. It's really starting to get COLD out.. and rainy.


----------



## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

rivergirl, we have it here in the Pacific NW. Just as the models show, our winters are dryer and warmer, no ice on teh dog pan for the last decade. Summers are wetter and cooler. Only a few days of 80's instead of 3 or 4 weeks. June is too wet to plant, seed rots :-( It is nearly 80 to day!!


----------



## Chip (Mar 13, 2007)

Regardless of what is causing global warming, Bob #2 said it best… "There is no question that man can become a better steward of his resources." Nough said.


----------



## richgreer (Dec 25, 2009)

Whenever I hear global warning deniers I think of the Dunning- Kruger Effect. Global warming deniers are a perfect example of this phenomenon. Don't know what the Dunning-Kruger Effect is? Google it.


----------



## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

Seen along a spectrum, Dunning-Kruger is on the opposite end from manic depression with its crippling insecurity.


----------



## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

..and we will just go ahead and disregard the cooling and growing of about 75% of the frozen continent of the Antarctic which holds 90% of the planet's ice ~rolleyes~


----------



## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

"At its June meeting in Sitges, Spain (unreported and held in camera, as is Bilderberg's way), some of the world's most powerful CEOs rubbed shoulders with notable academics and leading politicians. They included: the chairman of Fiat, the Irish Attorney General Paul Gallagher, the US special representative for Afghanistan and Pakistan Richard Holbrooke, Henry Kissinger, Bill Gates, Dick Perle, the Queen of the Netherlands, the editor of the Economist…. Definitely not Z-list, in other words.

Which is what makes one particular item on the group's discussion agenda so tremendously significant. See if you can spot the one I mean:

The 58th Bilderberg Meeting will be held in Sitges, Spain 3 - 6 June 2010. The Conference will deal mainly with Financial Reform, Security, Cyber Technology, Energy, Pakistan, Afghanistan, World Food Problem, Global Cooling, Social Networking, Medical Science, EU-US relations."


----------



## Sawdust2 (Mar 18, 2007)

I guess it was a mere 2 billion years ago that the entire globe was encased in ice. Who caused global warming then?


----------



## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

*richgreer*: that was about the best belly laugh I've had in months … and/because … I DO know what the Dunning-Kruger Effect is 

Thanks !


----------



## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Acid rain turned out to be one of the word's biggest lies ;-)) so…............ Al Gore gets $30,000 for talking about global warming. If I were him, I'd keep them all whipped up too!! )


----------



## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

October 2009 U.S. temperatures according to NOAA were the third coldest in 115 years of record keeping, 4 degrees below the average temperature for this month. October 2009 also had the most snow in the U.S. than has ever been recorded for that month.


----------



## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

Rich - Your statement is incorrect. The folks saying that Man Made Global Warming is incorrect are not unskilled.


----------



## DocK16 (Mar 18, 2007)

Time will tell


----------



## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

The tide is turning. The Atlantic pump has slowed ;-))


----------



## Magnum (Feb 5, 2010)

For some reason I hesitate to even type this …....At 10:00 AM today (Apprx) Los Angeles was in the low 80's. By Mid Afternoon it was in the area of 113 Degrees. Is that Normal?

Up Here in Canada "where the Sun never shines" 2 days ago we had a Temp Inversion I believe it's called. During the Night the temp Rose 4 Degrees.

Anyway, I guess I'm one of those Suckers that bought into the "Global Warming" theory.

When I see Satellite shots of a Lake (forgot where) that has been there for at least 10,000 Years at the base of a Glacier that TOTALLY disappeared in a matter of 2/3 Months and the Glacier is now melting underneath like it never has before I kinda credit that to HEAT of some sort.

Maybe I'm just to Logical in my thinking process i.e. if somethong Melts….Heat did it. If something turns to ice or Freezes …Cold did it.

You'll have to excuse me now. My Diet Coke got kinda Warm while I was typing this so I'm gonna go downstairs and get some Ice and Cool it back down. OH! Did I just make another Wrongfull assumption again??

Actually ….Who The F-K Cares! It works for me!!


----------



## finns (Nov 13, 2009)

We'll, maybe the land I bought in northern Minnesota will finally appreciate in value. Problem is that in 2025 I doubt I'll be around to find out.


----------



## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

Actually ….Who The F-K Cares! It works for me!!


----------



## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Rick, The bottomline is the earth's climate is chaning all the time. The last 10,000 years have been unsusally stable. When it starts warming up, polar ice melts reducing the salinity of the northern sea water. It sinks slower and slows the tropical water coming from the south which warms Northern Eurrope. This slowing makes the northern areas colder and the whole thing starts all over again.

Not to comfuse things, but the water sinking by Iceland takes 2,000 years to reach Japan. The surface currents are fast. It only takes a few weeks for the water to come from japan to iceland.


----------



## Magnum (Feb 5, 2010)

Topamax:

Well! that certainly explains it! DUH!! ;-} Is that what they mean by "A slow boat to China"? No. that's a Song. Isn't it??

Hey! Your "Not to confuse things" is easy for me to understand! The bottom water is saying "Ho Hum. Are we there yet? The Top water is saying .."Get you Ass out of my way!" Yes?

(Just kidding Buddy.)

GEEZ! Now I'm getting Paranoid! After I go Poo Poo which handle do I turn. The one with the "C" on it or the one with the "H" on it??

Abbott: What are you laughing at! You take your Meds yet? I took mine an Hour ago! BUT! You know what….....


----------



## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

I think the part of this talking point that gets people riled is not wether the weather is changing in the short run but rather what may be causing it to change.
Al Gore and his followers where quick to decide that man caused it by releasing CO2 into the air and that eveyone should pay a tax because of it. ( to him)
This myth has almost been completely debunked once the science behind it was discovered to not noly be flawed but in addition manipulated and misinterpereted.
That leaves us back with climate change. 
I don't know for sure what is causing it of for that matter what can be done about it.
I'm completely sure that we can take better care of this planet and that we should start doing that right now.
I remain unconvinced that making Al Gore etc. billionaires will have any impact on the climate at all.
We are far more likely to run out of food and natural resources before any climate change has any impact on the human population.
There's a ton of information that you can read and research here you are genuinely interested in climate.
http://www.climatedepot.com/


----------



## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

I would think that's pretty solid Bob.


----------



## Magnum (Feb 5, 2010)

Bob:

"I don't know for sure what is causing it of for that matter what can be done about it.
I'm completely sure that we can take better care of this planet and that we should start doing that right now"

Right On The Money!! With the Possibble exception that we should have started ding it Many Years Ago!!

"We are far more likely to run out of food and natural resources before any climate change has any impact on the human population." Totally True and it's happening right now!

Thanks: Rick


----------



## Abbott (May 10, 2009)




----------



## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

2 things we know for sure: Al Gore did not deserve a Nobel Prize and he doesn't much give a damn about the issue; he has one of the largest carbon foot prints in the US. On top of jetting around producing a lot of C02, his monthly electric bill for the mansion is $30,000.


----------



## Ffakr (Sep 27, 2010)

I stopped in to check a thickness planer review and ran across this thread. 
I can't let this go. 
Big business has been able to make Global Warming (more accurately "Anthropomorphic Global Climate Change") a political issue. They attached it to those dirty f'n hippies and the conservatives in the crowd are more than willing to circle the wagons and fight the good partisan fight.

Our best research indicates Anthropormorphic Climate Change is real. Our last decade has had 2 of the hottest years on record and the the entire decade has been unusually hot. Our ice caps are breaking up. We're already seeing devastating drought and, as predected, we're seen massive flooding and snow fall in other areas of the world. (in case you don't know, warming oceans dump more humidity into the atmosphere causing more more precipitation down stream of the warmer currents.. yes, the DC blizzard last year was what we expect from global warming)

Few points here.. going from the bottom of the thread to the top…

Abbott: If you read your quote, it says "October 2009 U.S. Temperatures". It's called *Global* Climate Change for a reason. Areas of the planet will get colder as weather patterns and ocean currents change. Europe may get much colder according to some models. BTW.. colder ocean currents.. less moisture in the air.. you'd expect something awful to happen downstream, like massive drought over Russia.
2009 was, globally, the 5th warmest year on record. Go back and ask yourself if your source had a motivation to dissemble or if it's simply out of context. 2010 is on pace to be the hottest recorded over the past 115 years.

Abbott: Why is it the Bilderberg story is only available on paranoid right wing sites and a blog on the Telegraph.uk from a right wing author? Dirty f'n hippies.
Bilderberg stories are immensely popular with the perpetually paranoid. This may not even get posted if the Bilderberg internet filters catch this mention. ;-)
You're referring to an un-sourced claim that there may have been a typo on a schedule (at some super secret world domination conference) .. or maybe a massive global conspiracy.
Research be damned.. Alex Jones knows best.
OT.. Don't know if you got this from Jones but.. just for fun I watched an Alex Jones video an old coworker posted. I bothered to actually read the US Law he was referencing in his apocalyptic diatribe and funny thing, it didn't say anything that he claimed. It was the last time he posted a Prison Planet video.
I really wish people would get mad when they were lied to.

Abbott: The claim about the East Antarctic ice sheet is a misrepresentation of a British Antarctic Survey. If you look at the actual survey you'll see they attribute the Ozone hole over the south pole as having delayed the affects of Global Climate Change. Also, subsequent studies indicate the east shelf is indeed melting.

Bob#2: You're incorrect about the science. The vast majority of GeoPhysical Scientists believe in Anthropomorphic Climate Change (over 90%). I'm not one myself, but I work with a hundred of them and there are no deniers in my sampling. 
Denialists like to tout a petition of "experts" who deny Climate Change but they never seem to actually read the list of signatories. Almost none of them have a background in climatology or Geophysics. 
The petition is called The Oregon Petition. It has 17,000 signatures. Some of those were Cartoon Characters [Fred Flintstone for example] and most have no educational or professional background in any relevant field.
Scientific American looked at the 1400 signatories who claimed to have a PhD. Here's what they said.
" Scientific American took a random sample of 30 of the 1,400 signatories claiming to hold a Ph.D. in a climate-related science. Of the 26 we were able to identify in various databases, 11 said they still agreed with the petition--one was an active climate researcher, two others had relevant expertise, and eight signed based on an informal evaluation. Six said they would not sign the petition today, three did not remember any such petition, one had died, and five did not answer repeated messages. Crudely extrapolating, the petition supporters include a core of about 200 climate researchers--a respectable number, though rather a small fraction of the climatological community. " 
The petition its self is criticized as being extremely misleading. It doesn't even ask signatories to affirm their belief that Global warming isn't happening, it asks if they believe Global warming [climate change] is causing "catastrophic" damage.

hokieman: Yes, 400 ppm is very little. But CO2 is just one small part of the atmosphere. Nitrogen is the majority of our air followed by Oxygen. If you want to make irrelevant anologies, it's just as easy to go the other way. 
Small changes make a big difference. When you exhale, you only increase the atmospheric CO2 content up by about 4%. That's 4/100th of the already small number. That's a lot of breaths into a plastic bag just to double the atmospheric CO2 content. I don't recommend trying to figure out how a little change can affect you.
here's another one.. 400ppm? that's a lot considering 270ppm of cyanide will kill you in 6 minutes. Tiny amounts are relevant, particularly in a system as delicately balanced as our atmosphere.
You may scoff at 400ppm but you're talking about 33% over where we'd like to be and about 15% more than the so-called point of no return.

Bob2: You posted a Lord Mockton video. He's a crazy British Lord who's profession was Finance. He has no scientific expertise in climatology or geology or oceanography. He has no background in any physical science.
He's a serial liar who's motivation has everything to do with supporting big business' fight against pollution regulation. Mockton is a clown. The only reason people don't debate him is because it's not worth their time. Here's some discussion of a Mockton debate from an actual climate scientist. http://www.skepticalscience.com/Lessons-from-Monckton-Plimer-debate.html It's not a nasty partisan diatribe against Mockton, but an enlightening look at his style and his substance.

Bob2: Yes bob, you don't like Al Gore so a vast body of scientific research doesn't exist.

If you're really curious about Global Climate Change, I highly recommend you take advantage of a recorded course by a world renown GeoPhysical Scientist (he's a nice guy too.. I work with him). 
The entire class is posted here:
http://mindonline.uchicago.edu/search.php?series=58&series_search=yes&series_submit.x=12&series_submit.y=4&series_submit=Go


----------



## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

Yeah, everyone is crazy except the guys pushing Global Warming and redistribution of wealth….where have I heard this all before? LOL!

Welcome to Lumberjocks Shandy!

They are beginning to say that we are now heading into a Global Cooling cycle. The Antarctic Ice sheet has been cooling and growing for a decade, it's where most of the world's ice and fresh water is. Man made Global Warming has been debunked.


----------



## Magnum (Feb 5, 2010)

Mr. Sbandyk:

Holy Crap! You've only been on here for 2 Hours and you typed all that?? Would of taken me 3 hours just to type it!! By the way. THANKS! It IS For Real! WEW!

Does all that mean I CAN use the Taps with the "H" or "C" on them without having to get Paranoid about it? ...LOL… Welcome to LJ's!!!

Abbott: Nice new Signature line!! The last part…"I don't know what I'm doing half the time!--PM sent to a friend."

I told you something like that would happen if you didn't take your Meds on a Regular basis. BUT! You'll be fine. Just remember though….


----------



## Chip (Mar 13, 2007)

Thanks for taking the time to post all of that information sbandyk.

I'm inclined to listen to, and believe, well written, data laden comments much more so then ones written merely to ridicule, mock and joke about the subject. I mean, if a person can't even get your name correct when it's presented clear as day right in front of them, why on earth would I care what they post about such an important issue? But then again, I like accuracy and substance. I'm funny that way.

And welcome to LJ's sbandyk. I hope you stick around.


----------



## rivergirl (Aug 18, 2010)

sbandyk you said "They attached it to those dirty f'n hippies and the conservatives in the crowd are more than willing to circle the wagons and fight the good partisan fight." I never knew a hippie to be conservative.. and we we weren't ALways DIRTY.  And about the C02 problem- "When you exhale, you only increase the atmospheric CO2 content up by about 4%." Solution? Don't exhale.  Hey- you know what- in places where drought and disease and starvation is cyclical and common place they have high birth rates- you know why- because they know that half of the kids are not going to live. It has always been that way. And it may seem humanitarian to some to go and give these indiginous peoples baby formula- to keep the kids from starving- but know what happens? when you give baby formula- the mothers/grandmothers stop using communal lactation and then they lose the natural birth control processes and then they GET PREGNANT more often. And then their breast milk dries up and then the formula companies quit giving out free formula and then THE KIDS STARVE. So very often what we "observe" to be true is not really true at all because our observations are based on fixed time, and outside evaluations when life is really about continual time and continual events that are infinite. So the way I see it- the cosmos is way ahead of Al Gore- and we can never catch up with continual time. I am not saying don't reduce refuse and don't practice conservation- but I am saying that sticking your finger in a light socket in most instances results in a fatality of some sort. The earth/cosmos- whatever the thing is- is very powerful and self correcting. Tear down the local mall and before you know it grass and weeds are sprouting through the concrete. That is always amazing to me - the power of a blade of grass. So hey- exhale or not… Al Gore will be long dead before this earth implodes- and the planets will still align and the stars will continue to burn out hurl themselves across the skies while others are emerging. So, that being said, anyone have a light for this cigarette?


----------



## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

Mr. Sbandyk:
According to your brief assessment of the postings here we are all confused about the origins of climate changes occurring now. 
I fully agree with you. 
One only has to spend a few hours determining how the "research" was done over the past 40 some years to became a devout denier and skeptic. 
If I could humbly point you back to 1970 when the mantra was *global cooling *you could perhaps appreciate what I am saying.
The "data' you refer to is flawed and riddled with errors. 
Here is one of many such discoveries and dated sep of 2010.
http://stevengoddard.wordpress.com/2010/09/27/us-thermometer-readings-show-cooling-since-1895-before-adjustments/
It is possible when working on a task that you can develop tunnel vision.
It is also possible that changing your opinion on a funded task could result in "loss of employment" or "funding".
I have no such dog in this fight so I can pretty much believe what I can see.

As for Monckton, the barking dog does not need to have a university degree to tell you that there is a burglar in your basement.
While we are at the credential aspect of having an opinion on Global climate change I would repectfully ask you to reseach Mr. Al Gores credentials at least as thoroughly as you have Moncktons.


----------



## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

"2 things we know for sure: Al Gore did not deserve a Nobel Prize and he doesn't much give a damn about the issue; he has one of the largest carbon foot prints in the US. On top of jetting around producing a lot of C02, his monthly electric bill for the mansion is $30,000."

And because Bill Gates lives in a 55,000 square foot home, he couldn't give a crap about world poverty, hunger, dysentery, and preventable diseases ?

Hm.

Somehow, that notion doesn't quite make sense to me.

As to the Gore mansion, you've stated an Inconvenient Half-Truth.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/gorehome.asp

He's switched as far over to renewables as one practically could.

I don't demand that billionaires live in their cars, in order to have a positive influence on the world. I'm not quite certain why others seem to.


----------



## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

Al Gore should be in the cell next to Bernie Madoff.
.


----------



## Chip (Mar 13, 2007)

I was in college in the 70's and don't remember any "global cooling mantra". Guess i was too busy studying to get caught up in the hyperbole. Sadly, I'm older now and that doesn't seem to be a problem.

"I suspect the answer lies somewhere in the middle, where global warming is caused by both anthropogenic causes as well as natural causes…"

Jorge, this is probably a pretty good assessment of the current situation.

But, because I live near a large city like Philadelphia, and often drive by its myriad of refineries, billowing tons of carbon into the air daily, I'm not too sure where any confusion lies. Because I see on the news, cities in Japan and China, where millions of citizens can't leave their homes without filters over their faces, I'm not too sure where the confusion lies. Because I see almost daily reports of vast flooding around the world, displacing millions of people, I'm not too sure where the confusion lies.

Seems to me, putting politics aside, it doesn't take much more then common sense to see that we are greatly accentuating, and accelerating, an already dangerous situation. Then again, common sense seems to be the only thing this world is in short supply of these days.


----------



## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

Well, here we go again. My post to Shandyk wasn't made as ridicule. I didn't misspell his name when I welcomed him… I figured Shandy was his first name. I'm glad he found our forums and my welcome was sincere. Just becuase he and I don't agree on Global Warming has no effect on if I think he is a good or bad guy. I have no idea who he is but I bet he turns out to be a good guy just like all the rest of the folks here are. I don't think I take the subject of Global Warming as seriously as others do, I could really care much less about it then I do now which is next to nothing.

It sure would be nice if folks would ask how a post was meant instead of jumping to what they think it means. ~shrug~

Welcome to Lumberjocks Shandy, this is a very informative woodworking forum with a bunch of great people. I'm sure you will fit right in and that you will find folks that appreciate what you bring to the forum. We also have quite a bit of fun around here in threads such as this one.


----------



## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Hey Rich - I think the same things about the Al Gores of the world with Dunning-Kruger.

Like CO2 Causes Global Warming - when the Ice samples and tests in Gores book show the exact opposite.

The earth got warmer the CO2 increased. So CO2 is a RESULT of warming.
Kind of like Babies are a Result of Sex…and NOT that Babies Cause sex (quite the opposite in my experience)

I think Chip makes a lot of good points looking at the urban pollution in LA, Shanghai, Tokyo and other cities, obviously these are NOT good results and are the result of human activity.

The Anthropogenic Warming - - is a lot less clear. Warming is happening, but our impact on the temperatuer is far from conclusive.

Should we have better pollution controls? Sure, if they apply to everyone.

However we give China and India a pass. 25% of the UN budget if from the US, yet 190 countries are included.

Some fact to chew on… the 400 to 300 ppm level would NOT be achieved in 20 years if the ENTIRE US population went to live in a tent! All those steel mills, and factories have moved to Asia, and the population is still growing.

Maybe we should target REAL actions that would have MEASUREABLE effects, and are not just thinly veiled UN punishment of the US.


----------



## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

From the Washington POST…

The Arctic ocean is warming up, icebergs are growing scarcer and in some places the seals are finding the water too hot, according to a report to the Commerce Department yesterday from Consulafft, at Bergen , Norway .
Reports from fishermen, seal hunters and explorers all point to a radical change in climate conditions and hitherto unheard-of temperatures in the Arctic zone.
Exploration expeditions report that scarcely any ice has been met as far north as 81 degrees 29 minutes.
Soundings to a depth of 3,100 meters showed the gulf stream still very warm.
Great masses of ice have been replaced by moraines of earth and stones, the report continued, while at many points well known glaciers have entirely disappeared.

Very few seals and no white fish are found in the eastern Arctic, while vast shoals of herring and smelts which have never before ventured so far north, are being encountered in the old seal fishing grounds. Within a few years it is predicted that due to the ice melt the sea will rise and make most coastal cities uninhabitable.

I apologize! I neglected to mention that this report was from November 2, 1922. As reported by the AP and published in The Washington Post - nearly 88 years ago!


----------



## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

"apologize! I neglected to mention that this report was from November 2, 1922. As reported by the AP and published in The Washington Post - nearly 88 years ago!"

Another example of White Coat/Black Art.
Let us not forget the Mellinium hoax.


----------



## rivergirl (Aug 18, 2010)

LOL Bob. Like I said- the cycle of time and life is infinite- we should not and cannot measure time nor events in time in terms of the causes of the events we witness in the moment of NOW-


----------



## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

"Of course, subsequently he invented the internet,"

Infinitely funnier than the truth, I'll admit, but … I've always believed that facts DO matter.

http://www.snopes.com/quotes/internet.asp


----------



## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

I'm a complete skeptic when it comes to global warming and I have read some of the literature from both sides. The world has gone through many climatic changes over thousands of years with the temperatures going both up and down.

Depending on who you ask it's sort of like the question of dovetails - which do you cut first the pins or the tails.

However, if our whole way of life is going to be disrupted and our taxes are going to go through the roof with laws such as Cap and Trade, and if parts of our Constitution are going to become subservient to UN treaties then I say we need to have certain proof of this stuff and based on what I have seen it is not there.


----------



## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

Within a few years it is predicted that due to the ice melt the sea will rise and make most coastal cities uninhabitable.

That's bullsh*t. For there to be enough water to cause anywhere near that type of rise in sea level the Antarctic would have to melt. It contains 90% of the world's ice and most of it's fresh water. The majority of the southern most continent has been growing colder over the past decade and the ice pack is growing larger.


----------



## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

Al Gore claimed "I took the initiative in creating the internet."


----------



## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

Some folks also need to realize that Snopes is run by a very left-leaning husband and wife team that doesn't always have their political bent out of the way.


----------



## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

Here is an interesting article about how the internet was created.

Also, probably one of the people who is most responsible for what the internet is like today is Tim Berners Lee.

It is true that while on certain committees in Congress while he was a senator Gore did support the work that the people did who invented and developed the internet. However, that is a far cry from being the inventer of the internet.


----------



## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

This article just recieved and "not at all reviewed yet" points to a rather cyclic undulation of temperatures/climate on a cycle of around 1000 years.
Interesting data to be sure!
http://motls.blogspot.com/2010/09/vindication-of-craig-loehle.html


----------



## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

Jorge: so you change YOUR statement (what you attribute to Gore), and then seek to defend the "revised" quote ?

Okay. Muy interessante.


----------



## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

Your original statement:

"Of course, subsequently he invented the internet "

Your subsequent statement:

"I took the initiative in creating the internet."

I didn't "put words in your mouth."

What we have, there, is a direct copy and paste OF your posted words.


----------



## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

Don't fight guys. Either way it's at best a partial truth. Given his academic background I find the notion a bit of a quantum leap at least for me.


----------



## popmandude (Feb 17, 2010)

Any one wanna read a small observation from a dirty f'n hippie? Tough..here goes anyway. If ocean temps rise only a little, small percentage of the frozen tundras experiences a small temp rise, an then some of the permafrost thaws, enough methane will be released that all the naysayers will be beggin for a breath of fresh co2.
Randy


----------



## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

As the Times put it on Feb. 24, 1895, "Geologists Think the World May Be Frozen Up Again."

Those concerns lasted well into the late 1920s. But when the earth's surface warmed less than half a degree, newspapers and magazines responded with stories about the new threat. Once again the Times was out in front, cautioning "the earth is steadily growing warmer."

After a while, that second phase of climate cautions began to fade. By 1954, Fortune magazine was warming to another cooling trend and ran an article titled "Climate - the Heat May Be Off." As the United States and the old Soviet Union faced off, the media joined them with reports of a more dangerous Cold War of Man vs. Nature.

The New York Times ran warming stories into the late 1950s, but it too came around to the new fears. Just three decades ago, in 1975, the paper reported: "A Major Cooling Widely Considered to Be Inevitable."

That trend, too, cooled off and was replaced by the current era of reporting on the dangers of global warming. Just six years later, on Aug. 22, 1981, the Times quoted seven government atmospheric scientists who predicted global warming of an "almost unprecedented magnitude."

So we are on Round 5
1890's Freezing
1920's Warming up
1950's Freezing
1980's Global Warming

2010 - after unprecedented cold weather of the winter of 2009 - we have to rename Global Warming to Climate change….now Man Made Climate Disruption…

I see a 30 year cycle myself…

The world is warmer - the ice age ended, and the Great lakes were uncovered!

The glaciers in Scandinavia are receding and uncovering medieval tools and weapons… So it has been warmer SINCE the ice age


----------



## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

My apologies, Jorge.

I'm crabby as hell, today. Fighting some sort of sinus bug.

I shouldn't even be discussing this stuff.

So … lo siento, disculpame, y …. hasta luego ;-)


----------



## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

Ha! Now that gave me a belly laugh! At least we now agree that Al Gore is a lying putz.


----------



## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

JorgeG: 
I just watched the Youtube debate re CO2 it role in Climate that you kindly provided.
That's a pretty compelling video.
As a life long student of science and ofttimes practitioner I applaud those brave enough to take on the mainstream popular politicians.
Thanks for bringing this piece forward.

Bob


----------



## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

In this case thanks to both of you!
We cannot solve our problems with dissension, we must have discourse.
I love the Internet for giving us a collective voice in our affairs.


----------



## hokieman (Feb 14, 2008)

sbandyk, I'm well aware of the composition of air. I'm a chemical engineer and have worked in the environmental field for over 20 years. You are talking out of passion and not science or logic. Yes, cyanide is toxic but that has nothing to do with the argument. CO2 is NOT toxic and is necessary for the life cycle. The amount of reduction of CO2 that the environmentalists is proposing in miniscule. Anyone that thinks that this little change will mean the difference between polar ice caps melting or not is not thinking logically.

The other thing is why do these climate alarmist always point to greenhouse gasses? When someone can quantify the contribution of greenhouse gasses compared to variations in sun spot activity or variations in the earth's orbit around the sun then maybe I'll listen. But to hang it all on CO2 which is a naturally occurring and needed for the life cycle is absurd.

Hey, what about that Mid Evil warming period that the IPCC erased?


----------



## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Who is IPCC?


----------



## canadianchips (Mar 12, 2010)

I have to read the opening comment again. Did you say superpower or stupidpower ? LOL
We do have the leadership for the stupid portion in place already.
More immigration ! OH CRAP we have enough foolish people here already.
(I live in Canada, I am allowed to say this) lol


----------



## woodywoodworm (Sep 29, 2010)

Ya … I agree that we could use a bit of global warming up here in Canada … lots of snow on the mountains already.

I just wondering how much of those resources we're going to be allowed to keep after the Russia finishes with us. They've already called use out, saying we don't have a claim to arctic resources.

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2010/03/17/arctic-russia017.html


----------



## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Chips…. I don't know, I think that Nancy Pelosi has even North Korean dictators beat for "Queen of Stupid"


----------



## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

Yeah, the snow started in the mountains here about mid-august. Usually we don't see any until mid to late October. We also had a very cool summer up here in the Pacific Northwest. I think Man Made Global Warming is pretty much nothing more then a way for them to try and scare more tax money out of everyone and send billions to under developed nations. Cap and Trade will substantially raise everyone's utility bills.

I have been getting a chuckle out of them trying to rename Global Warming to something a little less politically violate. It is getting difficult for them to control the reporting of cooling temperatures from all over the globe. Reporters standing in early and late snow storms are looking pretty foolish.

I have also found it remarkable how they have been systematically eliminating temperature reporting stations that are located in areas with colder climates and then reporting averages from the remaining stations claiming the "rise in temperature" as proof of warming.


----------



## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

Abbot, they are also investigating as we speak, how the actual temperatures got "massaged" upwards on the official records.
http://joannenova.com.au/2010/09/australian-temperatures-in-cities-adjusted-up-by-70/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+JoNova+%28JoNova%29
One of the things that strikes me about the climate change ballyhoo is that the human memory is selective and short.
Check out these rather extreme stats and try to co-ordnate them with the current warmers predicitions .
http://www.islandnet.com/~see/weather/almanac/diarydec.htm


----------



## rivergirl (Aug 18, 2010)

All I know is that it is cool here  Had to fire up the woodburner last night… brrrrrrrrrrrrr Do I have to cap and trade my wood/log units or can I continue to burn unfettered?


----------



## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

I was a free man in Paris, I felt unfettered and alive.
There was nobody calling me up for favors , no ones future to decide. ;-)


----------



## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Burn, burn, burn!! Cap and trade + the economy will probably cause a lot of people to start buring more wood. Unintended consquences. Just like endangered spices act; a land owner cannot afford to get caught with one on his land, so a lot of land owners dispose of them :-((


----------



## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

WISCONSIN IS HOT!! NOAA pegged Egg Harbor at 600F over the 4th of July at 10 in the morning. Didn't everyone notice the great lakes evaporated??

http://climatechangedispatch.com/climate-reports/7479-us-government-in-massive-new-global-warming-scandal-noaa-disgraced

Pasted in:

NOAA Makes it White Hot in Wisconsin

But our intrepid anonymous whistleblower wasn't done yet. He pointed out that Egg Harbor, Wisconsin, really got cooking this July 4th around 9:59AM, according to NOAA and Coast Watch. It was there, at the bottom left row of the temperature data points, that the records reveal on that day a phenomenally furnace-like 600 degrees Fahrenheit. 
Further analysis of the web pages shows that the incredibly wide temperature swings were occurring in remarkably short 10-hour periods-and sometimes in less than 5 hours. Strangely, none of the 250 citizens of the 78 families living in the village appeared to notice this apocalyptic heatwave during their holiday festivities.


----------



## rivergirl (Aug 18, 2010)

Okay Topomax- I am burning more wood again today… LOL


----------



## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

Dave are we both reading the same info source?
Crying shame crap like this leaks out as it just kills the credibility of our "funded Gov't scientists" ( an oxymoron) now don't it?


----------



## baller (Nov 14, 2008)

blah! it's so hard not to get fully into it, cuz anyone following the hysteria the last few years should easily be able to type pages about what's been goin on around the issue…so i will leave it brief. Ok, so lets go along with what all the establishment/elite/New World Order (and no, that's not just some conspiracy Theory, you can hear it from 100s of their own mouths) say, what are the solutions put forth? De-industrialize developed nations (Several prominent writers on this), curb "overpopulation" with eugenics (Bill Gates TEDtalks - vaccines, Monsanto - food, fluoride - water, chemtrails - air, John P. Holdren [obama's science czar] lays it all out in the book EcoScience, which you can download free on the net)...Agenda 23, Club of Rome, CFR/Trilateral/Bilderberg, some very important places to start (you simply Cannot say these things/groups are fictitious anymore, well you can, but then we'll just have to exclude you from our "real world" discussion lol)...and if most of you weren't already aware, there are PLENTY of openly admitted instances of Weather Control/Modification, and the Main reason (to me, and many others, and hopefully You) they can't be trusted is because it's all done in Secret. Sure, you can find patents on chemtrailing/cloudseeding procedures, programs listed on the CFR's website for "geo-engineering", and many more cases, but the Details are never brought to light…For example US Secretary of Defense William S. Cohen, said on 28 April 1997 at the Conference on Terrorism, Weapons of Mass Destruction, and U.S. Strategy, University of Georgia "Others are engaging even in an eco-type of terrorism whereby they can alter the climate, set off earthquakes, volcanoes remotely through the use of electromagnetic waves." Bet you didn't catch or remember that, eh? He also had other shocking statements….but, whether or Not the US govt is conducting these experiments, the intel is opensource now, and we Know it is being done…so until those topics are fully debated and transparent, I will never buy into the hogwash and will always speak out loudly against perpetrators of deception….we need the FULL STORY, on EVERYTHING, especially before you talk about Global Collectivism…ok, that was keeping it Really brief, lol but i'm ready to respond later if i have any questions/controversy (which i Highly anticipate)


----------



## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

JONI MITCHELL IN DA' HOUSE!!!


----------



## baller (Nov 14, 2008)

seriously? lol ok ignoranus, go get micro-chipped 'n the latest nano-vaccine 'n go back to loving your corrupt government…nothing i say exists. Do i need to start posting endless links to where this New World Order is described? you probably still wouldn't believe them, in their (rockefellers, bushes, obama, kissinger, brzezinski, countless other hugely influential people in the world) own words even! You, Fool…I sincerely hope you don't have kids, or wish to have them anytime soon…only an Idiot makes fun of something which he obviously knows Nothing about, and can only laugh about something so serious as this subject…now, to the forum i apologize for the unpleasantness, but i can't help it when someone tries to make fun of everything i say without debating ONE mentioned fact (or for this sake i will say "alleged" fact, cuz so many people these days would deny the sky is blue if they were told it was not). Stop trying to be a 6th grade bully, grow up, get off ur Lazy Ass and look into Anything i said, rather than just digging ur head in the sand…unbelievable


----------



## baller (Nov 14, 2008)

in the time it took you to find that Stupid graphic, you could have easily verified the 1997 SoD's aforementioned statement….but no. This is a major reason why the incremental totalitarian tiptoe has got to the point it has today. Denial of reality, and the Stockholm Syndrome…this BoiseJoe, is what you have, i suggest you find out what it is! lol probably just find another dumb comic instead though


----------



## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I'll be buring too pretty soon ) Not sure if we are having Indian Summer or global warming here? Either way, I like it


----------



## StumpyNubs (Sep 25, 2010)

I think global warming has been happening since the last Ice age, hasn't it? Funny, there were no cars or factories or evil Americans around back then. They say Canada was once tropical. If it gets back to that, THEN we can start to talk about man made global warming.


----------



## baller (Nov 14, 2008)

BoiseJoe - i don't even know what else to say to you…you've obviously been mentally chemically attacked for a long period of time and left with an IQ under 100…"And the pics were not even funny" harharhar, umm…well, duh! no one laughed but you, idiot. and look, i know people like you get off on making people "so mad" on the internet, but in reality, about a nanosecond after i hit post reply your idiocy vanishes in all it's wasted forms from my head…it's quite magical really, i can't even describe it. lol


----------



## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

Psst…BoiseJoe that's the wrong style foil hat. That style has been scientifically proven to INCREASE the thought waves from the aliens.

Go here http://zapatopi.net/afdb/ for the appropriate headgear.

Be sure to read and heed all the warnings. One of my own warnings, that I found out the hard way- don't make or don the beanie under strong fluorescent lights, or near a CB radio. There serve to pinpoint your location to the Galactic Over Lords. 'nuff said.


----------



## baller (Nov 14, 2008)

wow, that is incredibly Scary…also that you refer to me as a character in "King of the Hill", which i didn't even know til i looked up…i'm 25, and how old are you again? well im sure you love to perpetrate the lies to continue the wars for your job security! pretty much explains your viewpoint…and yes, people in the military industrial complex have been brainwashed and shot up/experimented on long before you were there…but no, that's all fiction right?? What about the swine flu vaccine of 1976? countless other admitted cases of deception…i can't believe i'm still even addressing you, can someone else able to think for themselves Please chime in, so i don't feel like my thought-process was a complete and utter waste on a waste of space


----------



## baller (Nov 14, 2008)

you guys are pathetic, Yet to address anything i've actually stated…what children, grow up….what an awful world it has become, 'n people like you guys are making me want to support depopulation sometimes…so stop it! lol so clueless, go back to your boob tube 'n mainstream media


----------



## baller (Nov 14, 2008)

dumbasses…good luck to you in this Depression. making fun of/perpetrating evil comes really natural to you guys, so i'm sure you'll love it!


----------



## baller (Nov 14, 2008)

and to think, i thought…"hey, maybe i should rethink what i say, in case i can actually learn something from one of them about something related to woodworking (what this site's all about, right?)" then i looked at the projects of all 3 of you….2 projects among the 3 of you?? sounds like you guys don't contribute much more than a lot of internet bashing….people like you disgust me, it's so pathetic how you behave

anyone else - is there a way to permanently block people so you don't have to ever come across the garbage they spew?


----------



## rivergirl (Aug 18, 2010)

I admit I am rather ignorant about the global warming hullabaloo because I haven't had a TV for over 15 years and I don't read much news anymore. I do read alot, just not "newsprint" type stuff. Anyway, I just have a problem with the U.S. always being required to "lead the way" - we are supposed to clean up our national backyard while so many other countries continue to do what they have always done. A simple example I observed while I was in Poland (I love that country) about ten years ago. The U.S had stopped using the chemical benzene a long time before my post grad studies in Poland, however while touring the shipyards in Poland I witnessed employees dipping parts into benzene- using their bare hands. The can of benzene was sitting right there in plain view- clearly marked BENZENE. I asked the worker if benzene was in the vat that his hands were in. He nodded a vigorous yes while I took a photo. Another example is the cheap lead paint that China keeps putting on children's toys that are shipped to the U.S. The same will be true of 'global warming' emissions controls and caps and trades. While we are busy capping - the other counties are busy trading. It seems to me that there is no way to control the world- outside of some sort of Naploeonic world dominiation by a single dictator- and I don't think that would be a great idea- and even it would not be truly effective. So, what is the answer? I think the only plausible and most reasonable solution is to clean up your own backyard- individually. And refuse to be dominated into global submission that protects some and not others. You know - Al Gore is now a very rich man… and all because he is selling a bill of goods that could be sold by any good charletan. I shudder when one person sets out to dictate anything to an entire world.


----------



## HokieMojo (Mar 11, 2008)

Benzene
I'm pretty sure the US didn't stop using benzene. I think they just cut it out of gasoline mixtures. Along with lead, I think that's a good thing. I don't want to breathe any more known carcinogens than necessary.


----------



## baller (Nov 14, 2008)

thanks rivergirl, it's nice to see someone who hasn't been fully brainwashed and manipulated by the media…and it's probably Because you don't watch tv or read the paper much….you've had enough time to regain common sense

joe- try to discredit you?? think you've done that pretty much on your own, the only credible things you could have said are what you do and your comment on family guy. other than that, NOT ONE ISSUE, NOT ONE ISSUE, REPEAT NOT ONE ISSUE, was addressed, by any of you….i truly feel sorry for your pathetic personality, as someone who gets off on trying to stir people up….
and maybe if i repeat it enough you'll get it through your Thick skull….you really think the US govt SoD's statement i said before is a theory??


----------



## rivergirl (Aug 18, 2010)

REgarding benzene in US, I should have said without protective gear- respirators etc. The guy in Poland was sitting directly beside the vat of benzene and was hand dipping the parts or whatever he had- no gloves, no respirator… nothing. bare skin dipping into the benzene… all day long…


----------



## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

rivergal, a bit closer to home and nearer to now is this report that has been conveniently overlooked.
Just proves that "stupid" is not a commodity found only in Poland.

http://endoftheamericandream.com/archives/benzene-and-hydrogen-sulfide-the-real-dangers-from-the-gulf-of-mexico-oil-spill


----------



## baller (Nov 14, 2008)

i'm sure you guys caught this one….love how they always only give disclosure >30 years after it happens (70 in this case), most dumb americans can't even remember what happened last year! just another example of why we shouldn't trust their experiments…

http://www.youtube.com/user/DrRonPaul2012#p/u/13/sfVAUMEyfHs


----------



## baller (Nov 14, 2008)

stop being such a conspiracy theorist Bob#2, everyone knows that mercury in the shots is good for your child's mental performance (abc news), fluoride is healthy to ingest and put in our water…i mean c'mon bobbb, duhhh…lol


----------



## rivergirl (Aug 18, 2010)

um.. chris… Mercury is never a good thing to inject nor injest. Even the mercury in dental fillings has been found to be detrimental to some. As for fluoride in the water.. welllllllll.. again… not so sure. I never fed it to my kids- to the the best of my ability- just in case. We have well water at the house, though I did use fluoride toothpaste… but I did not vaccinate my kids when they were little. They did get vaccinated right before they went to college- well past puberty and mainly because I feared Hepatitis. They all had chickenpox and lived.


----------



## baller (Nov 14, 2008)

lol i'm glad you caught my sarcasm rivergirl, i was trying to imitate the 3 stooges from before….but i'm glad you don't buy into it, and yes you are correct….neither are good for your health, Mercury is the 2nd most toxic substance on earth, and fluoride is the main ingredient in Rat Poison….hmmmm, but it keeps our bones soooo strong, rightt? on the note of vaccines, anyone look into how many they want the kids to get before 2 nowadays? it's Insane!


----------



## rivergirl (Aug 18, 2010)

It is insane Chris and it wrecks the kids immune system before it ever they even leave the hospitial.


----------



## zonkers (Aug 18, 2010)

Wow! Bla, Bla, Bla, So many opinions. And everyone spewing data points that can be nullified by conflicting data. But in the momentum of the argument we forget the very simple issue; Don't [email protected] where you eat. No matter what side of the fence we are on we can all agree we simply need to pollute less. (Duh) The important question is how to reach that end without neutering world economies. Some will say that economies should be a secondary consideration. That's all fooie too. Economic down turns will causes a spectrum of issues from riots to all out war to abandoned super fund sites that have a much worst effect on the environment. I sure there are plenty L J's who will recall the Love Canal.

And while we are on the subject, how about a little positive reinforcement. Look how far the US has come since the '30's & '40's when our industrial machine pumped its toxic byproducts into our waterways and estuaries. When our skyline where blocked with black spewing smokestacks. We should be proud of how far we have come and point to our successes as a road map to the future. Not vilifying the USA as the spoiler of all things green.


----------



## zonkers (Aug 18, 2010)

As to fluoride; Our local water company has to purify our swamp water to make it safe to drink. Once a year they mail their customers a notice stating that the purification process causes slightly higher than normal fluoride levels. In this letter its recommended to not allow children to drink the tap water as the fluoride causes brain damage if consumed during developmental stages.


----------



## rivergirl (Aug 18, 2010)

I am freezing- I want some global warming in Pittsburgh and I want it NOW.


----------



## zonkers (Aug 18, 2010)

It's kind of scary what is going on with the twenty something's today. I had a long talk with my 24 year old son and his friends. They all have a very gloomy opinion of their future. All they hear is demagogues spewing negativities. All doom and gloom spoon fed by opportunist looking for power, fame and fortune. The overload of information has gotten so bad one cannot tell the difference between fact & fiction. I heard a news report the other day about a bunch of elementary students who felt that Christopher Columbus didn't deserve a national holiday because he took part in genocide. Wow!


----------



## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

My wife is Native American, her and her family refer to Christopher Columbus as a terrorist. ~shrug~ I don't put to much thought into it myself…I'm just glad (and thankful) that I have things going well around here during these tough times. As far as man made Global Warming…I think it's pretty much a hoax and I don't spend a moment worrying about it.


----------



## rivergirl (Aug 18, 2010)

Funny about Columbus being a terrorist. I have heard that said before. Not sure about Columbus himself- but the Spaniards were definately there to wreak havoc. History across the globe that has been made and is being made is full of genocide and slavery and indentured servitude. And because communication/information is so , well, global today, kids are more sensitive to the reality of war and other inhumane acts. All history is tainted, especially that of the Native American peoples in this country. I used to teach middle school reading through the use of narrative historically referenced texts: biographies, poetry, historical fiction, old newspaper articles through the Library of Congress etc. etc. My students cried many times.. boys and girls alike. Once, after reading shortened biography of Nathan Hale, my tissue box was depleted and several kids said they thought the author should have chosen a better ending. They counldn't grasp that this was a BIOGRAPHY. I had most of these kids for both grades 7 and 8- so we covered a lot of history over that 2 year period. Other kids in other classes cried over "Old Yeller" and that is a great book. But I think the pain of losing Old Yeller pales in comparison to the pain of losing JFK, Bobby and Martin Luther King and the pain caused by the Trail of Tears and the Navajo long walk. There is information overload, however if you teach kids to read good literature and to read many sources they can begin to discern fact from fiction. Unfortunately, some would prefer to remain in ignorance and teach only the white man version of U.S. History. It is also true that young adults today- 24-30 ish are very concerned about their lives- and concerned about jobs, and the environment etc. etc. Remember- this is the first generation to have literally grown up in a nation at war/in a military action- meaning their entire lives. And then the economy crashed. I also fear for the future of my children ages 26-21-20. I never thought I would believe there is little hope in this country- but I have to tell you- it often appears hopeless for them.


----------



## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Ever wonder where ACORN volunteers come from?

Things get better - there is a new teaching tool called "FLOCABULARY" basically musical Ebonics - to teach history in Oklahoma…Ever wonder where kids get the STUPID Ideas they spout off about??

excerpt from the newspaper link below:
It is the U.S. history curriculum that has raised concern.

One of the rap songs - "Old Dead White Men" - chronicles the shortcomings of the early leaders in the United States.

Of President James Monroe's tenure, the rap says: "White men getting richer than Enron./ They stepping on Indians, women and blacks./ Era of Good Feeling doesn't come with the facts."

That's followed up by an assessment of President Andrew Jackson's checkered dealings with American Indians.

"Andrew Jackson, thinks he's a tough guy./ Killing more Indians than there are stars in the sky./ Evil wars of Florida killing the Seminoles./ Saying hello, putting Cree in the hell holes./ Like Adolf Hitler he had the final solution./ 'No, Indians, I don't want you to live here anymore.'"

Springer said he was concerned about some of the lyrics, and that's why the district is holding off on the program until it's been evaluated.

Flocabulary CEO and co-founder Alex Rappaport said the lyrics are made intentionally provocative and sometimes humorous to create student engagement among some of the toughest-to-reach students in the nation.

http://newsok.com/oklahoma-city-district-pushes-pause-on-hip-hop-curriculum/article/3500154?custom_click=lead_story_title


----------



## rivergirl (Aug 18, 2010)

That curriculum is really pathetic- it really discredits and further denigrates Native Americans. You know what is really disheartening is that programs like this assume that kids are too stupid to learn from books. Instead of using books- properly leveled to teach kids to read- by the time kids hit middle school educators skip that teaching to read stage- because they assume that adolescent age kids (economically deprived) CAN'T learn. That whole philosophy is deeply engrained in the American education system and that system is morally bankrupt. Kids can learn to read- but unfortunately many teachers don't know how to teach. So instead of having the kids read a book we sing a stupid, denigrating low level song that in the long run does not teach students to read, perpetuates half truths and does more harm than good. If schools were interested in teaching students and ensuring a literate populace- this curriculum would not even get through the inception stage let alone the stage of discussion and adoption. I am therefore I do NOT teach.


----------



## rivergirl (Aug 18, 2010)

How it is possible is that 1) people don't vote. 2) those who do vote aren't necessarily reading about issues and PAST historical events they vote according to the commercials, slogans and music scores.


----------



## baller (Nov 14, 2008)

JorgeG - care to ever back up any of the ******************** that dribbles out of your mouth?

http://i.current.com/images/asset/904/124/58/1pMoHI.jpg picture of bags that they dump into municipal water supplies around the country, note the part that says "DANGER: POISON-TOXIC BY INGESTION"

what don't you get about that?

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_qLAIskTQXUc/TEzRww2KeYI/AAAAAAAABKk/C4ZrW5v4-RY/s1600/Sodium-Fluoride.jpg

and here is the rat poison picture, just for you.

I won't even bother with the mercury links, yet. There are a lot of things you can fix in this world, but you just can't fix STUPID…lol, this is great though, you're sooo caught up in trying to discredit Anything i say u keep making more a fool of urself…my coach in high school would always use this one "it's better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt" =]


----------



## baller (Nov 14, 2008)

I will be honest in saying i am not a "qualified" scientist, my mother is…but i do have a decent foundation in physics/calculus/chemistry/biology…and i am intensely interested in all this stuff in general for my Own health/life, my immediate family's, and my future family's (which is hard to even envision right now in our current ecology/economy).

from what i understand, it's all about potency…when i said my "mercury 2nd most toxic substance on earth" comment i was going from memory, so i figured it'd be fun to check up with a lil google…272,000 hits, which i'm sure 95% of which say exactly that (but of course i May be wrong, i only looked at the first cpl pages)...then i thought it'd be fun to look up the Most toxic substance on earth, wanna guess what it is? or better yet look it up to believe it, it's BOTOX! now think about all those rich moms and hollywood stars, they're not dead…k, back to mercury…thimerosal, one of the popular preservatives used in vaccines, is 49.6% mercury by weight…but, if they only put 0.01% it will most likely not kill you immediately, and they can tell you it's safe because it's such a small amount that you should neglect the known/possible effects. These are known as Slow-kill weapons (jumping a bit too deep, too fast…but those that are interested will research and find out on their own, and from a couple PMs i've received, people are Definitely becoming more interested, despite the mighty efforts of the bashers and all their wonderful wasted-time images they found…lol) because they aren't enough to kill you at the moment, but they can and will cause many ill-reactions in the brain, kidney and lungs. Hey, just look at the $1.5M awarded to the couple suing saying the vaccine caused their child's autism…"resulted in" instead of caused was the verdict, but at least we're making headway in some senses. thank God i'm not only surrounded by brainwashed bots applauding the profiteering of programming 'n propaganda, and bless all those who side with Good in our fight for humanity. I do not consider myself religious, but even I can discern the blatant duality we are enduring…either you're With the Elitists/Eugenicists, or you're With the People, we HAVE to recognize it…i hope we do, after all 1 in 91 children is autistic these days, and 1% of GLOBAL GDP this year will be spent on dementia/alzheimer's, but must just be 90% genetic like they say though, so we shouldn't look into/be concerned about aerosolizing Aluminum in the air (to protect us from AGW and trap that evil C02, their own documents…also Highly penetrating in the brain 'n extremely explosive reaction with fluoride, you can hear at least a few renowned Neurosurgeons being interviewed on this), all the pharmacological/genetically modified foods, etc…i say HELL NO i'm not gonna let you openly tell me you're poisoning me and then take it…we must all speak out, eventually the echos of everyone's voices will resonate the walls of the establishment so hard they will shatter the foundation! Believe it! oh, and have a nice day =] lol


----------



## baller (Nov 14, 2008)

lol whatever man, go swallow some mercury then! shoot your kids up with it, i don't care, just don't try to make that ******************** mandatory for me!

maybe i missed it in earlier posts, but did you or your boy Boise ever even say Anything containing information/supported opinion besides what you guys did for a living and are so expert of supposedly? i'm still wondering why you guys are even here? you don't do woodworking, you don't even talk on topic…so PLEASE, ignore me, and i'll ignore you…fool

and when i want to get an unbiased answer based on hard science i ask my mother, a world renowned biochemist with 30 years experience, 40+ patents, etc…so yeah, like you said, can't believe everything you read on the internet…and judging by your way of interaction over the internet, i would trust you about as far as i could throw you. ok can we Please be done now? your lack of substance (ha ha) really is a ********************in waste of space, and unnecessary to anyone's attention span it may grab.


----------



## baller (Nov 14, 2008)

ummm, you can see them directly ON the vaccine information label, which they only gave out at request and sometimes not even then….you can find those all over the net, but you don't believe anything there, and I'm not gonna gather everyone in this discussion in person, so….i guess everyone who's interested enough will just have to go find out for themselves, who the real fool is? and hey man, come at me all you want, i don't care…cuz in my heart i know i am of benevolent intent and doing good in making people aware of these things (how many people PM'd you from this thread saying they were interested in hearing more of what you had to say?), while you are just trying to bully and get off on it…clearly some people with common sense are saying/thinking things corroborative with my contentions Jorge, you can't ignore them all, can you? (rhetorical question, i know you can ignore Pretty much just about Anything! whore-hey ;p lol)


----------



## baller (Nov 14, 2008)

u really must get off on that, what a sick bastard…why do you even say ******************** like that, you think it's gonna make people sway to your "expert" opinions? no, you don't care about that, or the subject, or woodworking, or anything i'm guessing…'n i love when you guys make fun of age….how old are you clowns anyways? obviously age hasn't taught much tact (at least i have an excuse cuz i'm such a youngin who knows nothin, right? but i'm so glad to see that at least you are sharing all your wonderful whits of wisdom out there…HAH)...but i'm sure you're a catch, just keep telling yourself that…whatever helps you sleep at night ;p

jesus, whatever kinda world That guy lives in, i never want to go


----------



## baller (Nov 14, 2008)

yeahhh, that's it, i'm sure that's what it is…

NO, probably cuz you're a full-of-********************, piece-of-********************….'n that's got a scientifically-proven 99% probability! lol


----------



## baller (Nov 14, 2008)

ok, i'll let you have the last jab, i'm sure it makes you feel like a big man…in the meantime i will try tirelessly to learn the techniques from the great master-debater ;p


----------



## RyanBrown (Aug 31, 2009)

Temperatures and precipitation over the last couple of years is weather. Temperatures and precipitation over decades is climate.

My wife is a science teacher and has some of the relevant classes to make a decision on global warming - oceanography, geology and meteorology. She says global warming is real, and I believe her based on her references and resources.

I think that some people are arguing different points here - but then again I only read the first 90 replies. I'm way too lazy to type everything out, so I'll just list resources - just in case someone actually gets this far. Wikipedia is great because it lists every resource, so you can verify the information if you have the time and are so inclined. Draw your own conclusions.

Oh, and news outlets aren't always the most reliable sources for this kind of information. People have too short of an attention span to get into any real, relevant details, and the information is dumbed down so a second grader can understand it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attribution_of_recent_climate_change

CO2 levels and global warming: Sure, CO2 is a greenhouse gas. But it isn't the only greenhouse gas being released into the atmosphere. CH4 (methane) is much more potent than CO2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methane. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide_in_Earth%27s_atmosphere

CO2 and other greenhouse gasses have been on the rise since the start of the industrial revolution. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse_gas

Temperatures of the earth directly relate to how much CO2 the atmosphere has in it. Ice core samples at the poles can tell us what CO2 concentrations were, and relative temperatures and the age of the sample. Dating is done by carbon dating, analyzing dust in the same layer of ice as the samples were taken. Tiny air bubbles in the ice hold the same CO2 concentration that they did when the ice was frozen. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_change#Ice_cores

Generally speaking, average global temperatures are warmer now than when record keeping began.

I'm tired of getting links at this point… So, here's the rest in case anyone really cares.

Now for the sources/causes for CO2 levels and other greenhouse gasses to be so high… There are more people on the planet consuming resources. Duh. More landfills are creating more CH4. So are cattle for food and milk.

So warmer temperatures melt permafrost, releasing more CH4 and CO2 from decomposition of that permafrost. Same with warmer oceans and hydrates melting. More people driving, more emissions from cars, factories from everything from food to computers. Deforestation and clear cutting of the planets rain forests for cash crops limits the amount of CO2 that can be absorbed from the atmosphere.

Warmer waters release CO2 instead of absorbing it. Just like that bottle of soda sitting in your car release waaaay more fizz than one you just pulled out of the fridge…

While I'm at it, a gallon of warm water is the same volume of a gallon of cold water. But, if you heat up that same cold water, it expands. That's why the polar ice caps and glaciers melting don't really give you a 1:1 ratio when they melt. The ice melt may raise the ocean levels some, but warmer water takes up more volume, and levels rise even more…

Our global climate is very complex, involving the oceans, our atmosphere and the land and everything on it. It isn't just some simple that you can understand in a few hours. Luckily, I've had my wife (and her books, research papers and professors) to talk to on the subject over the last ten years. Maybe I am suffering from the Dunning-Kruger effect… I sure don't know or use a lot of big words.

How does this relate to wood working? Always try to get your lumber from mills that practice responsible forestry.

I can go on and on but what is the point? It seems like no one can agree on some things anymore. Open up your mind to other views and try to see things from a different perspective once in a while. You might learn something.


----------



## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

Man Made Global Warming has been exposed for what it was…people blindly following con men like Al Gore who want to load more taxes onto people so that they can build a personal fortune.






Some folks do not want to learn. They just blindly follow popular trends so they can call themselves "pro-active" and believe that makes them better then other folks. .


----------



## rivergirl (Aug 18, 2010)

In regard to things like mercury and fluoride and immunizations and McDonald's chicken nuggets… I say use at your own risk (and the risk of minor children) and avoid injesting these things as often as possible. As for global warming, if it is in fact a possibility- that we humans on earth have succeeded in wrecking the cosmos- then I say put your Raybans on, bend over and put your head between your knees and prepare to go the way of the dinosaurs. What is interesting though, when you see Chris's posts you can almost hear him yelling his nature of expression is so frantic. Educated young adults today are scared witless and they are at a loss as to what to do. This mess of war and environmental issues and proproganda upon propoganda reports has left this next generation paralyzed with fear. Fear of the chemical boogie man is far more frightening I think that a Hitler. At least you could SEE ADolph Hitler. This generation hears and reads about the issues in 3 second sound bites, they are crying out about the "issues" but they don't have jobs. They started out wanting to be professional people, have gone to college, but are many are chosing to work outside the system- avoiding the tax structure, and avoiding the take and take of a regular 9-5er. They feel as though they have no future- that their future is completely dependent upon the global mass of people and pollution. This turn of events is so sad, I will be surprised if any of them ever marry and (intentionally) choose to have children. So I think perhaps the best solution for the greater good of "the people" is to live a simpler lifestyle. Turn off that nasty TV, grow a big garden, play with your kids, feed them good food, avoid sticking them with poisons at an early age, don't use credit cards, don't go in debt at "Christmas" , teach them a trade or send them to college- but STOP SCARING THEM TO DEATH. We need the next generation to be be stalwart, honest and courageous- not incensed crazy people who read only internet feeds and feel compelled to post their internal feeling of weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth online. At least with Vietnam and racial disparity etc. the kids sat in, and demonstrated to vent their dissatisfaction with the war etc. Today- you don't see kids DOING anything but texting, emailing, and blogging. They are afraid to DO anything. You can hear it in their posts, they are nearly hysterical- it is truly disheartening.


----------



## baller (Nov 14, 2008)

thanks Nut, i didn't realize that….i thought i was gonna get in the club by the time radical life extension came around, and live forever =p lol


----------



## baller (Nov 14, 2008)

wow rivergirl, i will respond later because I really think you have me misunderstood…can't fully respond now cuz i have to be AT WORK at 7…yes i do work, 6-7 days a week, every week. I don't drink or do hard drugs, and I am Staring this evil in the face everyday, so i am not afraid….the people who are afraid are the one's clinging to the eco-fascists…later i will show everyone the new fear-mongering greenpeace ads…if you don't believe in AGW, they push a button and Blow the kids' heads up! Now that's trying to instill Fear, but when someone talks about real horrible things going on, that's not fear-mongering, that's fact. If a car was coming at you but you didn't see/hear it and i yelled/did anything i could to alert you, would you call that fear-mongering?


----------



## rivergirl (Aug 18, 2010)

Chris, the problem is- what is fact? what is fiction? What is truth?


----------



## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

Fact = poor economy, young folks without higher education are looking at low paying jobs. Young folks with some college degrees are looking at low paying jobs.

Fiction = The people we elect to government care about you, me and the young people who cannot find good paying employment.

Truth = What you saw, said and did today. And we had a very short cool summer this year. I don't know why but it doesn't worry me, I have other things to fill my days that are much more important to me.


----------



## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

The truth is "That government is best which governs least." The fact is the government never stops growing and the government grows at the expense of our freedoms. The more powerful the government gets the less freedom we have. This is common sense.


----------



## RyanBrown (Aug 31, 2009)

Jorge,

CO2 concentrations do vary by region, samples taken from the same core have shown increases in CO2 concentrations.

It is true that when water freezes, it does expand. Water is the only non-metallic compound that this happens with. Info here and here.

By keeping this in layman's terms, as a material heats up the atoms get excited and the material will expand. This is called thermal expansion. So, maybe a ton of water would be a better example to give. One ton of cold water will take up less volume than one ton of cold water. Ever had a house with a boiler for baseboard or radiator heat? They need to have expansion tanks because of the water expanding when it gets hot.

Calculators to prove my point here, here and here. Here's more info.


----------



## HokieMojo (Mar 11, 2008)

I thought when metal is chilled, it shrinks. I thought this is the premise behind putting a bearing shaft in the freezer and heating the bearing to get them to slip on. Correct me if I'm wrong because I'm about to try this in a couple weeks for my jointer. Maybe it is only certain metals that the opposite occurs? Sorry to bring this to a woodworking topic guys. lol.


----------



## rivergirl (Aug 18, 2010)

All I know about metal expansion and contraction is that when the stainless sink plug for the stainless kitchen sink (with a garbage disposal) accidently gets put in the drain hole upside down- then I unwittingly turn on the grinder and it sucks the plug down tight- I can't get it out even with a steak knife sliding in there- it is so stuck. But if I run very cold water onto the upside down, very stuck sink stopper then wala- I can get it out. The end of today's metallurgy lesson 101.


----------



## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

When you heat metal it expands.


----------



## rivergirl (Aug 18, 2010)

Then Abbott- then that is why my drain plug open when I put COLD water on it. If I add HOT water it gets even more stuck. This is just like Bill Nye the Science Guy time here on channel L/J


----------



## RyanBrown (Aug 31, 2009)

Jorge, we may be talking about different things here… I did state (at least I thought I did) that you don't get a 1:1 ratio when ice melts. Yes, volume does shrink when water goes from a solid to a liquid. I am not disputing that fact. Here is something for you to read about water density.

However, liquid water, just like almost everything else on the planet does expand when it warms up. I was referring to a comment about sea levels rising. Ice melt may make sea levels rise some, but warming of the oceans will have more of an impact. Again, read this.

I will agree to disagree with you on the CO2 levels.

Wikipedia does not make me an expert, but it is great for giving references, real scientific references to real scientific studies for your reading enjoyment. Plus, I'm too lazy to give citations on my own.

My wife happens to be the expert. She's only been studying and teaching meteorology, oceanography and geology for the last 10 years. I would say that considering she has a PhD in the earth sciences, she's qualified to inform me.

The comment about not being able to understand how it all works in a few hours was for those who haven't been hearing about it from their wife for the last decade.


----------



## DAWG (Oct 23, 2009)

Ding!! Ding!! Ding!! What round is it anyway? My money's on JorgeG.


----------



## Todd46 (Jan 18, 2010)

you go Abbott
its a cycle we are going thru, why do you think the vikings called it greenland when they found it?


----------



## JJohnston (May 22, 2009)

To encourage settlement there, rather than the less remote Iceland.


----------



## Todd46 (Jan 18, 2010)

there is 1 gaurentee concrete gets HARD & will CRACK & not on your joints you put in it

people we will be long gone before this so called "global warming really effects any of us " 
I'm sticking with rivergirl whatever works


----------



## Todd46 (Jan 18, 2010)

lots of warming going on 10" of snow in CA mtns tonite
was 34 in st louis mo 2 nites ago


----------



## Todd46 (Jan 18, 2010)

lots of warming going on 10" of snow in CA mtns tonite
was 34 in st louis mo 2 nites ago


----------



## RyanBrown (Aug 31, 2009)

Okay, okay Jorge. Wikipedia is just so you can check the citations of actual articles and research papers and yes, the data used to create the graphs is available for a large quantity of the graphs. If you aren't going to read any of the links I sent to you I'll try to put this in layman's terms. After this, I'm done.

For example, if you heat water from 5ºC to 35ºC, lets say 1000 liters you get an increase in volume of 4.24 liters, that is only a 0.4% increase in volume, now if you melt 1000 liters of ice you get 1000 liters of water.

Glad to see that you used the calculator for the first part. However, the maximum density of water is reached at 3.98°C.

A 100% increase so your assertion that heating water has a greater impact on sea levels rising is wrong.

So, you are saying that at 1kl of ice melts, it adds 1kl to the ocean. Yes, and no… Let me explain in more detail.

Liquid water has its maximum density at 3.98°C, and expands for BOTH hotter and colder! At exactly 3.98 degrees C, the thermal expansion coefficient of water is actually zero.

As water cools down to a solid from 3.98°C, it becomes less dense and expands - that is why ice floats.

So, water will take up less volume right after it melts, and become more dense until 3.98ºC, after which it will begin to expand. So, melting glaciers and/or ice caps will add volume to the ocean, but less volume than when in their solid state. And of course just to make things interesting, nature didn't make the expansion coefficient linear. Ice takes up the same volume liquid water does when it is 5.85°C.

According to the USGS Ice caps, glaciers and permanent snow only account for 1.74% of the planet's total water, with the oceans seas and bays accounting for 96.5%

So, for some simple math, if all of the water in solid forms melts, even snow on mountains, it will actually shrink in volume from ~24,064,000km³ @0°C to ~24,063,167km³ @3.98°C for a loss of volume of ~833km³. Converted for easier comparison and visualization that is ~22,005,5319,614 gallons less volume in liquid water at ~4°C compared to ice at 0°C. As ice gets colder than 0°C, it's volume does continue to increase up to a volume up to 9% higher than its most dense temperature. So, you are right only at certain temperatures. The rest of the time, you are wrong. Plus, I ignored the fact that most of the ice is actually colder than 0°, so there would be even more of a difference.

Scientists suspect that more than half of sea level rise today is due to warmed and expanded sea water. Please don't make me do the math… If want to do it, the average ocean water temperature in the upper layer (above the thermocline, about 100m deep depending on waves and currents causing surface turbulance) is ~17°C. I'll even give you the surface area of the oceans - 510,227,657km². Compare the volume increase from 17°C to 18°C to increased volume from ALL of the water ice melting. I've already done half of the work for you, but I have a long day tomorrow and it's late.

Here are some actual scientific research sites for you to learn more on your own, if you are so inclined. Sorry if I insulted your intelligence by only giving you easy to read Wikipedia sites. Maybe these will be better for you.

Argo - Part of the integrated global observation strategy
Here are links to a frikkin' ton of other sites containing global oceanic data. 
More. 
Even more.

I hope that you take the time to do some of your own in-depth research.

Oh, and just because my wife's PhD is in the earth sciences, that doesn't mean I don't have my PhD in something else, like civil engineering.


----------



## crank49 (Apr 7, 2010)

I met Al Gore when I was in high school. His private academy was having a debate competetion with the private school I was in. He was on the debate team. He was just as much of a pompas ass then as he is now. I don't think I ever met anyone else who was as arrogant in my whole life.


----------



## rivergirl (Aug 18, 2010)

Funny about Al Gore. I think he is a nerd who is shaped like a pear. LOL


----------



## rivergirl (Aug 18, 2010)

OMG OMG OMG… aren't you all global warmed out yet? LOL  And BTW it rained here again today…. just in case you ALL need to calculate the average rainfall in PGH or something .


----------



## rivergirl (Aug 18, 2010)

I was just teasing you Jorge- don't get your feathers ruffled now.


----------



## DAWG (Oct 23, 2009)

IMHO/ I've worked almost twenty five years in various industrial jobs, and all of my jobs involved electrical or mechanical and process work which you needed basic troubleshooting skills. 
Troubleshooting is a form of problem solving, often applied to repair failed products or processes. It is a logical, systematic search for the source of a problem so that it can be solved, and so the product or process can be made operational again. Determining which cause is most likely is often a process of elimination - eliminating potential causes of a problem. *Finally, troubleshooting requires confirmation that the solution restores the product or process to its working state.*
Now I don't have a Phd, but I did graduate from High School and a Technical College and my question is where is the data that shows us that all the variables have been eliminated and Co2 is the only possible culprit, and like so many have already stated that it's not a natural shift in the climate.
Last point; any time someone stands to and does make a ton of money off of what their pushing (Al Gore) it will always seem fishy to me.


----------



## DAWG (Oct 23, 2009)

JorgeG, You hit it on the head that's my point exactly that you can't eliminate all the variables much less even identify all of them, so how can people act like they are so certain of what they're telling us. I understand why the guy making millions does it (right or wrong) what i don't get is why everyone else is trying to sell it.


----------



## DAWG (Oct 23, 2009)

JorgeG, the video link didn't work. It did say a team of monkey's was on the way to fix it.


----------



## Knothead62 (Apr 17, 2010)

When I was in grade school in the mid-50's, the worry was that the world was getting colder. Let's see- 2050 is 40 years away. 115 years? Not a lot of time to measure the effects of weather, IMHO. That is a mere instant in the total spectrum of time. The world might not even exist in 40 years, the way things are going!
FWIW, I heard a congressman speak at a Civitan club meeting many, many years ago. His remark was that the government always has to have some sort of crisis so they can get more money and spend it. 
Does anyone remember when someone on TV jokingly mentioned a toilet paper shortage? The next day, store inventories were wiped out (pun intended).


----------



## DAWG (Oct 23, 2009)

OK, I'll try it, but what am I suppose to do with these monkey's.


----------



## DAWG (Oct 23, 2009)

Hey just watched it. Sad to see that these kids actually think they're going to die, like if the polar ice caps really did melt that it would be like a tsunami all at once. Is John Stossel the only true reporter left in this world? Oh, didn't have any banannas, but they loved the honey buns.

Knothead62, your exactly right that's why I choose to question anything that comes out of any politicians mouth, they always seem to have a hidden agenda.


----------



## DAWG (Oct 23, 2009)

LOL, are you just trying to get rid of your monkey's? I pasted the link and it still sent them out.


----------



## DAWG (Oct 23, 2009)

Monkey's again; I'll try it at my house I was able to see the John Stossel one. It may just be this computer. Thanks for the info.


----------



## noknot (Dec 23, 2008)

The global warming crowd wants production to come to a halt, al gore wants more money for nothing. i you call now I have a perfect world pill for 19.99 Thats us dollars made in china with recycled organic parts raised in humaian conditions in a iso 2010 factory with carbon offsets using solar power and methane from waste sites in third world countries. Please allow 6 to 20 weeks for delivery since we use only union labor and ox cart. Say you heard it on lumberjocks and we will throw in a pot smoking hippy to reduce the snack food stock piles in your rich american home, since we are all too fat and need to eat less so the starving children in far away lands can get fat from cheese doodles. Which then will make the ox in there village work harder and that is animal abuse.


----------



## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

7-month-old girl survives global warming-inspired suicide pact

A seven-month-old baby girl from a city in northeastern Argentina has survived a suicide pact that claimed the lives of her two-year-old brother and her parents. The deaths are being attributed to the parents' fear of the impact of global warming.

The deaths of the baby girl's parents and brother were discovered on Thursday afternoon after neighbors noticed a strong odor coming from the family's home in the city of Goya, in the province of Corrientes, and contacted the local police.

Upon entering the home that Francisco Lotero, 56, and Miriam Coletti, 22 or 23, shared with their two children police found the bodies of the couple's young son - he had been shot in the back - and the couple themselves.

Both Lotero and Coletti had been shot in the chest and the Clarin, Argentina's largest newspaper, notes that a .38 caliber revolver was found in the hand of Miriam Coletti.

Yet amid the tragedy, which the Latin American Herald Tribune says was prompted by "the couple's worry about global warming and their anger at the government's lack of interest in the matter", police call it a miracle.

Despite having been shot in the chest and laying for three days covered in her own blood, a 7-month-old baby girl survived the attempt by her parents to kill her.

-------------------------

*Al Gore belongs in the cell next to Bernie Madoff. *


----------



## DAWG (Oct 23, 2009)

*Al Gore belongs in the cell next to Bernie Madoff. *

You got my vote, but send him to a maximum security prison with "TINY" as his bunk mate.


----------

