# Do people really pay what your project cost?



## HuntleyBill (Dec 9, 2009)

Hi Guys:
I have been having a ball building things. I have been building my wife and immediate family little things like jewelry boxes, planters, tea carts, and the like. My father in law asked me to make him a back scratcher. Nothing fancy or complicated. I went one step further and made him a matching set of a back scratcher and shoe horn.

When I finished, my wife said they were beautiful, looked fantastic and thought I should make some to "sell on ebay". This got me thinking….hmmmmm….. __it cost me:


about $18.00 for the kits (including shipping)
$2-$3 for wood blanks 
$5.00 for glues and finishing
Labor ( $15/hr x about 4 hours ) Since I didn't keep track the first time, it's a guess.
_
_

$85.00 for a back scratcher/shoe horn made to order with your choice of wood with a finish of your choice!
HOLY CRAP!

As it says in the title..*Do or would people really pay $85 for this? *You guys have been doing this for awhile and I have been just putzin around. Now wouldn't someone just go down to a fancy store and buy one for most likely a fraction of the cost?

I know, I know…mine is hand made…to order…special…yada yada, but really. If you tell me YES, I'll be in the shop turning my butt off!!!

Thank you. You guys ROCK!


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

No, I would not pay the $85. But if yiou want to kep making stuff for fun, you can put it on ebay for cost of materials and see what it brings.


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## tyskkvinna (Mar 23, 2010)

It's a strange balance.

I've been learning that everything you (I) make has a market of people who want it and will pay the price you need in order to sell it - it's just a matter of finding them. Or, find the people who want to buy things from you and then figure out what they want. I do both of these things and am regularly examining it.

Another thing I do with my wood stuff is I make one or two of a "thing" and then put it out there and look for the market.. and any more are "made to order".


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## uffitze (Apr 23, 2010)

that seems a bit on the steep side to me, but if you were making money selling them, I bet you'd be able (1) make them faster, and (2) get your costs down.


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## RedShirt013 (May 17, 2008)

It'd be stupid to compete with industrial production. I'd try to incorporate some unique design elements that distinguish your work from mass production products and try to sell your stuff as novelty items or artwork. Maybe consign your work at local stores. Most people like me only go on ebay for a good deal


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## SCOTSMAN (Aug 1, 2008)

Answer NO,they will not pay a realistic price unless they are educated.You cannot make a iving selling backscratchers that can be churned out in China for a few cents each you need to make bespoke pieces to make money in this Hobby/game sorry I guess the truth hurts sometimes people want Krenov quality at Ikea prices or less. Alistair


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Even very talented woodworkers that make high end pieces have trouble getting what their work is worth.


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## closetguy (Sep 29, 2007)

Tyskkvinna is correct. I have been preaching this for the last couple of years, but you have to be real about it. To quote myself from one of my blogs, "No one needs what we make". I'm sure that there is somebody out there that will pay $85 for a back scratcher/shoe horn, however, there may only be one in 300 million. I have built a number of widgets over the years that I thought would be a great seller at shows. But after building a prototype, I realized the amount of labor would not allow me to hit the desired price point, so I dropped it. You have to create a realistic price point and then figure out how to hit it. If you can't hit it, move on to something else.

When you build small widgets, you generally have to do large quantities in a short amount of time to make the numbers work. The materials cost is seldom an issue. It's the hourly labor and overhead that will keep you from making a profit. It's not uncommon to see someone buy $10 worth of wood, spend two days making a widget, sell it for $20 and think they are making money. This is something I struggle with all the time. It's easy to see the profit when I build an $8000 entertainment center, but more difficult to sort through whether I am making a profit or not with small items. You need to ask yourself, "How many of these do I need to sell to recover my costs before I start making a profit". Is it one, ten, or 50?

A lady asked me at a show last month how long it took for me to make a $50 medium size end grain cutting board. I told her three days. She said "you are not making money". I replied "not if I make one, but I usually make 10 at a time and two of those days are watching glue dry". In reality, I'm cutting out more wood, sanding lazy susans, or slicing bookmarks while the glue is drying. It all has to overlap.

Widgets are impulse buys. You make up a bunch, go to a show, and sell none. Then you go to another show and sell $1000 worth. Cash flow in the widget selling business can be tough. This is the reason I do custom casework, and supplement selling widgets at shows.


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## rhett (May 11, 2008)

Maybe you can hire about twenty 12 year old kids, pay them $2 a day, use the cheapest possible material available staining it to look like real wood. Sell them for $8.50 at walmart and still make an 80% profit.

Oh Sorry, I thought I was posting in the how to skew Americans views of value by outsourcing all manufacturing overseas forum.


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## CampD (Nov 8, 2008)

What rhett said!


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## Greedo (Apr 18, 2010)

if you want to make something to make money without having anyone ordering it from you in advance, then you must find something for wich there is a certain demand, but not big enough to have big companies mass producing it cheaply. something in wich there are only a few specialised companies producing it, generally at a high cost.
if you find something like that, wich you can also produce, but cheaper and of better quality, then you found your hole in the market.
go search some second hand auctionning sites with keywords like "wooden" etc… and see wich objects are getting lots of bids and attention that reach the profit limit.

you also gotto search for money where there is money, aim at special needs of certain businesses or professionals.
they have special needs and are usually prepared to pay what it takes.
same for woodworkers, we quickly find out that paying the extra for better quality tools is neccesary to deliver quality work.


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## dancampbell60 (Sep 23, 2009)

Sorry guys, it has been my experience that the only profit from woodworking is the appreciation from the kid who didn't expect the little "gizmo" you made for them as they watched and the person with a need that you fulfilled. If you can recoup part of you expenses, it is nice (you will have more money to make the lastest "thing a ma jig", and that is part of the fun of woodworking since so many of us just want to feel the appreciation of others for our work and talent. Walmart has their place in the grand scheme of things and we have ours!


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## huff (May 28, 2009)

I think closetguy covered it pretty well. I can justify my labor and material cost on a large project, but always have a problem working that with anything small. Do it for the fun and don't think about making money. If you seriously look at $15.00/hr. labor charge, but take out taxes, insurances,utilities, overhead, tool up keep and all the other expenses as a business, you will only drive yourself crazy and realize that even $15.00/hr. is too cheap for your time. Ouch!. Have fun and enjoy what you do.


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## sandhill (Aug 28, 2007)

I picked up a book a few months ago called "Starting a Outdoor furniture Manufacturing business" the author talks about how important it is to build a flawless prototype to show retailers and designing jigs to reproduce the same parts perfect every time and this will enable you to make the item faster each time. He points out that using local lumber that you can buy for less is a plus as well. I expect he (the author) will visit and make a comment or two as well because I sent him the write up.


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## woodspark (May 8, 2010)

As a woodworker who makes a living from it, all I can say is that I totally relate to this discussion. I live in South Africa, but whether it is dollars, pounds or rands, the story stays the same. There are ways to find the balance and I've had 20 years experience at it. I still have to consider that balance every day.


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## jstegall (Oct 9, 2008)

I saw a guy cutting "flowers" at a show with a pocket knife. He cut them from green twigs and sold them for 50 cents. I chatted with him assuming that he just did this to attract people to his booth. He laughed and said it was his most "profitable" item. He said he could literally cut one out in 10 to 20 seconds. He slowed it down when he had an audience but showed me how quickly he could churn them out…really amazing. He said he had started doing it as a boy and just never stopped. His grandfather owned a large peach orchard and that was what he learned on…peach trimmings. He and his wife traveled to shows and while she drove he cut them out. He displayed them in flower pots.

Another case of finding his "market".


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## Wood_smith (Feb 12, 2010)

The folks on here have given you lots of good advice… two things that stand out- trying to find a product you can make in a reasonably short period of time, unless it's a custom job. That way, you've got half a chance at making close to a reasonable rate for your labor.
Second, is educating your customer- finding a fast way to show what you make is better than what the big box stores buy offshore. My pouches, for example (and thanks to the folks on here for giving a woodworker a bit of leeway to talk about his non-wood project), I have to find ways to show people they're much better than a tarp.
... your homemade back scratcher is better than that old wooden spoon in the drawer!

Good luck and much success.


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## thatwoodworkingguy (May 19, 2010)

I go to craft fairs every weekend and this past one I heard some wise words.
"your work is never what its worth to you"

I have learned to price my work around what people are willing to pay. And it HAS made me money.


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## Timberdoodle (May 23, 2010)

i am new here to this site and am from Michigan, we are in a major slump state wize in the financial world.. and i have made some furniture and some some small notions for the quilting ladies.. so far i havnt made a profit in dollars but have in the looks from the recipients.. there are many pro's and fine craftsman that have tried to make a living doing this craft and have went back to other alternatives..if the krenov's and the cosmans and the others out there cant or are struggling to make it break even the road looks pretty rough and the only sunny side is the satisfaction of the fact that we made it and not ikea.. and those that have received our work have more than any ikea piece ever. be it family, friends or a paying customer.


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## wseand (Jan 27, 2010)

I never calculate my time into my cost, my time means nothing to the consumer. If I make more than the cost of materials than I made a profit.


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## TreeBones (May 21, 2007)

Occasionally I earn fair wages on my work but in general the sale price isn't enough to make a living. I do many kinds of work that keeps my bills paid and woodworking is a passion that I just cant keep away from. In the end every little bit helps and I feel extremely lucky that I can do the things that make me happy. All this is only possible with the support of my better half. Without her encouragement all the fun would come to an end.


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## Puzzleman (May 4, 2010)

I do make a living from what I make. What I make is personalized puzzles.

As stated above, you need to find the people that can and will afford what you make. Creating my business is not something that happened overnight. It took a couple of years before I became profitable. Now you need to realize that I have a complete shop (not in my basement or garage) with several employees (part time only). I have costs of overhead that working out of your home doesn't have.
The biggest thing that I have learned over the years is that my job 1 is not the woodworking, it is the selling. Without sales, I am not able to work in wood. Without sales, I can not pay the bills. Without sales, I do not make a profit. Sales is #1.

Concerning the people that do not value their time and do not charge for it: You have bought into the WalMart mentality that people will only buy if is cheap. What you are making is something handcrafted by yourself with your passion. When talking to customers, I tell them my story of how I started, why I do what I do, why I use this particular wood, why they will love this product in their home and from all of this they get my love and passion for what I do. I do not stand in the back of my booth and wait for people to pick something off of the shelf. I am out talking to people and explaining myself and my work. When people see my product and say that it is too high priced, I tell them thanks for looking. I am not looking for those people. I am looking for the people who appreciate quality workmanship and quality wood.

I do not do every art and craft show that comes around. I am very selective in where I go. If the area does not meet my criteria for the type of area that matches my current customer base , I don't go. No matter how much the promoter wants me to come or says what a great crowd they have.

sorry that this went so long, but I am passionate about what I do and what I am worth.

Jim


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## rance (Sep 30, 2009)

Lots of good advice and suggestions. I would only add that for small projects, knick knacks, and even some small commissioned pieces, I almost NEVER make just one. The cost of the wood is mostly negligable. Making 2 or 3 is almost as easy as making 1 (probably doesn't apply to turnings though). This allows me to offer an item at a lower price which hopefully means I get more work from my estimates. I can then give the extra pieces to friends as gifts or offer them for sale. I doubt this idea would work as well as the projects get bigger, but it might.

Caveat: My woodworking is a hobby and mainly sell stuff to keep me in tools & materials.


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