# Hourly Rate of Pay



## DIYWaterDog (Mar 26, 2017)

What is a reasonable hourly rate for woodworking?

I have an open ended agreement with a local business to do a routed sign with a local high school theme.

Since I am a woodworking hobbyist I could not set a price or guarantee super quality craftsmanship. Really had no idea the time it would take to do the job.

We have a tentative agreement that I will work for credit at the business if they like the piece I am making. If they do not, then I will be donating it to a local fundraiser or perhaps hang in my garage.

Besides cost of materials, what would be a reasonable rate to charge? As I am already into the project, I estimate the project will take about 10 hours.

Look forward to your replies.

DIYWATERDOG


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

lol.

$10-50+

Can they get it for less from Ikea? (not custom)

Can they get it for less from a handyman? (custom?)

What is the snafu factor in said handyman's skills?

supply, demand, etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysistrata


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## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

For me, as a hobbyist, I make such decisions based on how much is my time worth to ME? I have limited shop time and a list of projects I'd like to do longer than my leg… For me, the number is about $30/hour. Any less than that and I'd rather spend my shop time doing whatever I want. But for that amount, it's usually worth it to me to take on a project. Gives me some spending money for new tools ) Of course, that's on top of material costs. YMMV of course, that's just my opinion.


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## John Smith_inFL (Dec 15, 2017)

*I have an open ended agreement with a local business to do a routed sign*

so - you are not actually making the sign yourself? you are only helping the "woodworker"?
is this guy a sign maker, furniture maker, general handyman, or what?? any CNC work involved?
pretty vague question without knowing a little more about the project.

basic hand carved signs with hand tools (NO CNC) was about 125-$250 per hour a few years ago…...
the basic hand routed sign would be about 75-$250 per square foot for a single sided sign.

so - you need to be a little more specific about the sign you are making. how complex it ???
how big is it, single or double sided, indoor or outdoor, what wood did you use, yada yada yada
a sketch or drawing of your project will help the gallery help you.

here is one of my signs that is your basic redwood with routed graphics.
a box configuration to bring the thickness to about 10" and 3'x5' in size, single sided:









I made the redwood sign panel and hired my mason buddy to build the concrete stand
with crushed oyster shells embedded in a stucco finish.

.


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## DIYWaterDog (Mar 26, 2017)

> For me, as a hobbyist, I make such decisions based on how much is my time worth to ME? I have limited shop time and a list of projects I d like to do longer than my leg… For me, the number is about $30/hour. Any less than that and I d rather spend my shop time doing whatever I want. But for that amount, it s usually worth it to me to take on a project. Gives me some spending money for new tools ) Of course, that s on top of material costs. YMMV of course, that s just my opinion.
> 
> - HokieKen


- HokieKen

Thanks for the reply. Excellent point on "time worth to ME" And the option to buy some additional tools after costs. I was thinking $30-$50 myself

DIYWATERDOG


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## DIYWaterDog (Mar 26, 2017)

> *I have an open ended agreement with a local business to do a routed sign*
> 
> so - you are not actually making the sign yourself? you are only helping the "woodworker"?
> is this guy a sign maker, furniture maker, general handyman, or what?? any CNC work involved?
> ...


John,

Thanks for the response.

Your response made me think about my experience as a web site designer/developer. What also started as a hobby 20 years ago. I think 20 years ago I started at about $30 per hour. Over time I moved to $75 -$125 per hour once my knowledge and skill set grew.

FYI… this is a one sided hand routed sign. 6 stenciled (carbon paper trace) letters. Nothing complex, but will be a one of a kind on reclaimed bleacher plank from a local school. Quality of sign will be based on my steady hands with a Bosch 1hp Colt router.

DIYWATERDOG


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## Rick Dennington (Aug 27, 2009)

When I build a piece of furniture, or just something pretty simple, I usually charge around $20 an hour, depending on what they want….Here where I live, we mainly have old folks in the community, and most are on a fixed income….So I try to give them a fair shake….Because maybe, just maybe, I'll have a return customer, which happens quite often when they need something custom made, and can't find it anywhere else….!!


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

In my area, someone with "handyman" status gets $15-$20 per hour. Working with someone without a track record doesn't warrant more.


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## JayT (May 6, 2012)

My view is pretty much the same as Ken's. Only difference is my number is $25/hr.

I've had friends, family and co-workers get annoyed when they ask me to do some woodworking for them and I come back with that number. For some reason, a lot of people seem to think that just because this is my hobby, then I'll do any woodworking or teach them how to do woodworking for free. I have to give that same explanation-"If you want me to spend my hobby & relaxation time doing a project you want instead of what I want to work on, that's the number it'll take."


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## Mike_D_S (May 3, 2012)

I'm in Houston and I do a reasonable amount of side work doing custom pieces. My market is primarily referral and word of mouth. As I still have a full time job, my goal here is to earn some extra money to help with current college expenses. The jobs tend to be medium size. As an equivalent, I usually describe it as less work than a 10×10 kitchen but more than a single cabinet. On average I'm doing one of these jobs a month though it's often two one month then nothing, then two, etc.

On a job where it's something I may not have done before I may go to $40-50/hr giving some time for me to figure things out if needed. But generally if I'm confident I can produce a quality piece I charge $60/hr. These are typically single price quotes and not time and materials.

The hourly rate question is really personal. You have to weigh the value of your time, the hassle of being on someone else's deadline, the cost to do the work, how well you can estimate the time it'll take and then what the local market will bear.

I normally work with my next door neighbor (who also has a full time job) and when we started, we were using $40/hr and rapidly realized that while there was nothing wrong with it, but we didn't feel like it was equivalent to the time we were giving up. At $60 we do jobs that are a little larger, for people who are more interested in the custom aspect and we feel better about it, so it works out.

To give an example, here is a divider partition we put together for a repeat customer to help keep her your kids from throwing stuff down the stairs on accident. We priced this out at $55/hr as she's a nice lady and this is our third piece for her.

Mike


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## darthford (Feb 17, 2013)

> here is one of my signs that is your basic redwood with routed graphics.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's cool!


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## John Smith_inFL (Dec 15, 2017)

*Quality of sign will be based on my steady hands with a Bosch 1hp Colt router.*

I'm still a little confused here - - - you are doing the router work ?
what is the "other business" shop doing for you ?

6" letters should not take more then 10 minutes per letter to rout.
depending on how you will finish the letters and wood, add that time to the total.
so - at $30 per hour, maybe two hours into the project will be $60.00.
as a novice woodworker, that will probably make you comfortable with your time and pricing.

I made a nice routed sign for a lawyer's office. Took me maybe an hour to do it total.
I charged him $350.00 for it and he was very happy. We hung it up outside his office
we took some photos and he wrote me a check. . . . and as I was leaving, he asked me: 
how long did it take you to make this beautiful sign for me ???
I replied ~ mmmmmmm probably an hour. He became very aggitated with his tone and 
blurted out that was $350.00 an hour and he is an experienced trial lawyer with 6 years 
of law school and I only make $75.00 an hour . . . . 
and I calmly replied - yeah, that's all I made when I was a lawyer, too !!!

so ~ the moral to the story is never sell yourself short. never tell a customer how long it actually
took you in time, never deliver a sign the same day. (wait a few days).
consider your design time, computer artwork, going back and forth to the store for materials,
the janitorial duties to clean up after you are done (routing can be very messy).
and if you deliver and install, that is another fee to consider.
this is when an "inexpensive" project can eat up your profits pretty quickly. and if you do more 
similar projects in the future, you have already set the bar pricewise in the first project.

[as a novice] for a simple 2×12" x 4' routed sign, I would charge $25 per square foot. (100.00)
which would be more than the $60 if you charged by the hour.
your time = your call. good luck !! please post some photos as you go along.

.


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## shipwright (Sep 27, 2010)

I'm a retired professional woodworker (boatbuilder) so I try to remember that some people are still out there trying to put bread on the table. With that in mind I try not to undercut their pricing just because I don't need the money. 
If I'm doing something different like marquetry that no one is commercially doing in my area, that's different and I tend to price based on the perceived market for the piece.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

I have/had one factor in what I could charge…..LOTS of Amish around here, willing to work for almost nothing…..

Got to the point, I would quote a price as 1/2 materials, 1/2 labour….with 1/2 upfront, 1/2 on delivery…..130 chest of drawers later….I just walked away….was taking away from my fulltime job. and wasn't worth all the hassles.

Now? I build just for me, and family….not selling. Donate some items as I go along.


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

It depends on what it is. I'm a beginning carver, so I only carve fun things for my family. If it is something for sale, I generally expect a return of at least $50 per hour, from which the utilities and material costs are deducted. Those items are made using machinery, not hand carving tools, and generally require minimal materials, usually about 5% or less of the sale cost. One of my previous carving tool chests piqued the interest of one of my fellow carvers, who inquired how much I would sell it for. Since it was a learning mule (and used, to boot), I told him $800. As a comparison, Gerstener makes a 5 drawer chest of red oak, the same material as I used (mine is 8 drawers, and customized for tools, to boot), as a KIT that has to be built, for $500. I'm not claiming that I'm better than Gerstener, BTW. It's just a point of reference. If someone asked me to make one like it new, I'd ask $1600, and wouldn't budge on the price. Their grand kids would be using that chest.


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## Klondikecraftsman (Apr 4, 2018)

I use material cost plus $40/hr. That rate covers my time, electricity, shop supplies etc. Depending on your level of proficiency of course. An accomplished woodworker may do a higher quality job faster so when starting out compare prices of similar work to get an idea of where you need to be.


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## r33tc0w (Jan 27, 2017)

I'm in the sign industry in New Orleans and we charge $65/hr for labor which is pretty standard in our area. Cost of materials is generally marked up 1.67-2x depending on what it is in addition to the cost associated with acquiring the material and how extensively you have to work the material to arrive at the desired end product


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## matt382 (Apr 6, 2018)

Can you still make $75-$125 banging computer keys? If so than anything less is hobby time. It's totally up to you what you charge at that point since you are being paid by somebody else to have fun. If so, charge just enough to get the work. Over time, as you get more work, you will charge more… because it will be less fun and more work! You may find out it's better to keep work work, and hobbies hobbies. Don't ask me how I know. I'm finally getting back to this as a hobby, lol!


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## therealSteveN (Oct 29, 2016)

An often asked, and usually impossible to answer question. Pick any project from the "projects section" have 100 woodworkers here make that exact same piece. There will likely be 100 different periods of time to do the work, and some will complete it much better than others. You can't know this answer until you actually do the work, if people keep coming back to get more, then you are at or about the correct rate.


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## DIYWaterDog (Mar 26, 2017)

Thanks everyone. Lots of great suggestions offered and lots to ponder.

The business I am "working" for is a restaurant/bar. If they like it, I will basically be asking for a running tab based on the negotiated price. So, hope to get a couple dinners for the family or a bunch of cold beverages with the guys! 

If it is a likable piece plenty of people will see it and possibly turn into a hobby that turns a few bucks every now and again. Perhaps the barter system will turn into something good.

Thanks again,

DIYWATERDOG


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

It sometimes comes down to the customer. I have done paid work for others, but some customers were extremely picky about the work while others were satisfied with a less than million dollar quality results, and this was regardless of amount charged. I no longer do such work, but when I did, it was based on a set agreed upon price per project, not hourly rate. There is also the matter of the project being "utilitarian" in nature or a fine piece of furniture. I would charge by the hour for the utilitarian job and set price for the latter.


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## Mike_D_S (May 3, 2012)

MrRon's comment is a good one actually.

We've been talking about hourly rate, but most of my jobs are fixed price quotes. I figure out the materials cost and estimate the time. Then I multiply materials by 125% (tax, glue, screws, etc) and multiply the estimated hours by $60 to get the total price.

The fun part comes in after I get a job when I religiously track the hours spent doing the job and divide that by the labor part of the price to benchmark how good my estimating skills are.

Mike


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## TungOil (Jan 16, 2017)

> The fun part comes in after I get a job when I religiously track the hours spent doing the job and divide that by the labor part of the price to benchmark how good my estimating skills are.
> 
> Mike
> 
> - MikeDS


This is important if you want to do this with any regularity. When I was still doing commissions on the side (and holding a full time job) I kept meticulous records of how long each step took. You will quickly build a data set that you can use to fine tune future quotes. Since all of my work was word of mouth, knowing how long it took the make Mrs. Smith's dresser was really handy when one of her friends wants one just like it.

I always priced my jobs fixed price as materials + labor + overhead + profit. Labor + overhead + profit are usually rolled up into an hourly 'shop rate', but you should build your shop rate based on those three main components. And I never negotiated price, ever.


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## woodbutcherbynight (Oct 21, 2011)

I rarely do work for someone else. BUT on a rare occasion I will. Once I develop the price based on materials, labor, overhead and time on task that is the price and a deposit is required for materials to get started. Payment is due upon delivery, in full, in cash. Negotiation of the price is not optional. Attempting to argue about it just gets a polite well nice seeing you and I leave. Calling me back in the future to say okay go ahead, also not optional.

I realize it seems a bit harsh to have a set price and no negotiating, and counterproductive to getting more work. But two things are in play here. My time is valuable, including the time to make the estimate. My project book is quite full so I have plenty to do here at the house. Second to have gotten me to consider it you had to have talked with someone that does know me. They would have warned you ahead of time I give price once, or the answer is no.

So by reputation you know how I work. You would have seen my work at someones house so you know what I can do. Knowing that you tried anyway. What else will will go wrong if I agree to it?


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

There is another "factor" to consider….I used to call it the Aggravation Factor….More I get aggravated with changes in the agreed to plan….the higher the bill be. Usually around 10% of the total price,,,,PER CHANGE….


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

> Since I am a woodworking hobbyist I could not set a price or guarantee super quality craftsmanship. Really had no idea the time it would take to do the job.
> 
> We have a tentative agreement that I will work for credit at the business if they like the piece I am making. If they do not, then I will be donating it to a local fundraiser or perhaps hang in my garage.
> 
> ...


I think the discussion got sidetracked, this seems like a one-off deal. Just make up a number. If they are offering credit you can be sure their costs are low. It's usually service (or occasionally labor based) businesses that solicit this kind of trade. So if you charge $250, their actual cost will be a fraction.


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## darthford (Feb 17, 2013)

Now subtract federal income tax, FICA at the self employment rate of more than 12%, state and local taxes, and all your other expenses, wear and tare on your tools, utilities, etc. now what is the hourly rate you are really working for? If you charge $30 an hour you are really working for more like $15 an hour in your pocket.


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## DIYWaterDog (Mar 26, 2017)

Here is my final folks. Like I said, nothing to fancy here. Just a hobbyist tearing up some wood. You can see the progression here. 

Have about $50 invested in tools and materials. *What would you charge to do something like this? * Wood was free. Reclaimed from local school that replaced wood gym bleachers with plastic. Measures 70×11x1

I will be bartering with a local restaurant for credit in meals and suds. If they are not interested, donating it to a local fundraiser to put up for auction.

Loved hearing from woodbutcherbynight and bandit571. Reminded me of my web design and development days.

thanks again for all your comments.

DIYWATERDOG


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## DIYWaterDog (Mar 26, 2017)

Agreed barter for sign make was $300 restaurant credit. I'll take that! And a little more experience in learning the time calculation of future work.

DIYWATERDOG


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> Agreed barter for sign make was $300 restaurant credit. I ll take that! And a little more experience in learning the time calculation of future work.
> 
> DIYWATERDOG
> 
> - DIYWaterDog


I think you did good, both with the barter and the sign.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

Yep, cost you $50 and them probably $30-50 depending on how much alcohol you order but it works out for everyone. When word gets out you'll probably get more offers.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Loren and others are all accurate 10-50

You have to assess your own skill/speed. As a hobbiest, are you doing something in 4 hours, that a "pro" with a CNC would knock out in 30 minutes?

- - you might have to 'discount' your hourly rate based on knowing you may take longer, doing this in your garage over a longer period of time.

Is it pretty basic? or are you really testing/using your skills. e.g. something only a handful of people can do/take on?

I would check prices on similar signs…look at materials, and how long it would take you to complete it for 'Their' price…. and see if the hourly rate makes sense.


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## dhazelton (Feb 11, 2012)

DIYWaterdog - that seems pretty fair but make sure you tip. that $300 shouldn't come to bear on the wait staff.


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## Fresch (Feb 21, 2013)

Free wood to you, had to find it, pick it up, square it, etc., charge for free wood just like you bought it.
Go to the gas station, gas cost $2 on Monday, $2.50 Tuesday, $3.00 Wednesday, all on what the cost COULD be, yet the true cost never changed; just the speculative replacement cost.
As others noted insurance, what happens if someone is injured by you dropping off the sign? 
Charge what the market price for similar work or you are depressing the market.


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