# UN wants US to abolish the 2nd Amendment



## Maverick44spec (Aug 7, 2011)

Ok, I know many of you do not like politics, and I try to avoid discussing them on this forum, but this is something I have a passion for. I love guns. I believe we have a right to own any gun we want and any law preventing it is unconstitutional. The UN wants the US to sign a small arms treaty that will severly limit our 2nd amendment rights. Obama plans on supporting this treaty. Here's some info on it.

While the terms have yet to be made public, if passed by the U.N. and ratified by our Senate, it will almost certainly force the U.S. to:

1.Enact tougher licensing requirements, creating additional bureaucratic red tape for legal firearms ownership.
2.Confiscate and destroy all "unauthorized" civilian firearms (exempting those owned by our government of course).
3.Ban the trade, sale and private ownership of all semi-automatic weapons (any that have magazines even though they still operate in the same one trigger pull - one single "bang" manner as revolvers, a simple fact the ant-gun media never seem to grasp).
4.Create an international gun registry, clearly setting the stage for full-scale gun confiscation.
5.In short, overriding our national sovereignty, and in the process, providing license for the federal government to assert preemptive powers over state regulatory powers guaranteed by the Tenth Amendment in addition to our Second Amendment rights.

This is from Forbes.

I don't know about you, but I don't want this to ever happen. It violates much of what the founding fathers stood for. Why should we allow a foren power to take away our rights? Don't we have a right to defend ourselves? (Despite popular belief, gun control does not prevent crime. Criminals will get guns illegally if they have too. I have actually did research on this and found that there is less crime when there is little gun control. That is true of different states, countries, and even decades.)

The right to bear arms is the shield and sword of the constitution. I don't know about you, but I think taking away this right is something that should never happen.


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## RetiredCoastie (Sep 7, 2009)

The UN can BITE ME! The first thing we should do is kick the UN out of our country after that send the libs with them!


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## Maverick44spec (Aug 7, 2011)

+1. I have never trusted the UN and this is proof that I was right not to trust them. Try not to make the libs mad though. They are entitled to their ideas, (I will not say anything about their ideas except gun control does not work) and we need their support too.


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## RetiredCoastie (Sep 7, 2009)

Thats true but they are the ones that have been trying to do away with gun owners rights and would be the ones to vote for such B.S.


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## Maverick44spec (Aug 7, 2011)

Yes, but just remember not all of them are for gun control. The citizens won't even get a vote in this. Only the Senate. Hopefully, if it does pass, the next president will trash it tell the UN where they can go.


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## KnickKnack (Aug 20, 2008)

Constitutions, amendments, UN, politics etc etc aside - I *hate* guns and I wish they'd never been invented.
However, they have been - but the fewer there are in the world, the better, IMHO.


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## Maverick44spec (Aug 7, 2011)

KnickKnack, Are you sure you don't hate the people who use guns to do evil? Guns will not do any harm in the hands of responsible gun owners. Plus, there is the fact that more gun control=more crime and less gun control=less crime. Don't believe me? Check for yourself. Look up the stats for crime (violent) in areas that have a lot of gun control like California and Washington DC then compare it to the crime (violent) in areas with little gun control like Texas, Montana, Arizona, and Oklahoma. You can also get a simular result by looking at the violent crime rate in the early 1960s and compare that to the crime rate in the 70s, 80s, or today's crime rate. 
(There was a increase in gun control in the 60's)


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## KnickKnack (Aug 20, 2008)

I hate guns - the guns. But sure, there's an issue about who uses them - can't argue with that.

You're saying that *less* control produces *less* crime?
Well - that shocks me. I don't dispute your data, but it does surprise me.
Why is that? Why does more control produce more crime? That's weird. Seems counter-intuitive to me.

I'd still just rather "the average joe" did *not* have a gun that required controlling.


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## agallant (Jul 1, 2010)

You have to remember we are talking about the same people who want to investigate how kadafi was killed. Two things I can tell you. kadafi was executed and the UN will never infringe on US gun owners rights. The UN will spend millions of dollars finding this out on their own. Just international political fluff.


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## JimDaddyO (Dec 20, 2009)

I don't own a gun, but I used to. The CONSERVATIVE government (who I didn't vote for) here in Canada is scrapping the gun registry. One of the few things they are doing that I agree with. It was a multi million dollar debacle that only made life harder for honest folks. None of the criminals ever registered their guns, and it is the gun you do not know about that is dangerous. In the proper hands a gun is NOT a weapon, it is a tool, like any other, designed to perform a task (putting food on the table). On that note, you do not need a fully automatic firearm, it is not the tool you need to get that grouse or rabbit to the cooking pot. So I do agree with the ban on automatic repeating firearms, not even useful for moose hunting. It does not matter what restrictions you put on firearms, all that does is open up a door for more criminal activity, the underground firearms market. None of which get registered.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

I'm am one that holds my right to bear firearms to a higher degree than that to my life itself. The right to bear arms defines freedom to me. To remove that freedom negates all other freedoms and I am thus enslaved. It should be plainly obvious how I would defend this right, given that life without it means nothing to me. Hate me if must, but I admit this openly, and there of many of me. I am a licensed firearms instructor and have never broken a firearm law in my entire natural born life.


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## tom427cid (Aug 21, 2011)

I know that it is cliche but to me "gun control" means you hit what you aim at.
BTW Even though bein way up here in Yankee land ,when it comes to my firearms I am a card carrying ***********************************!
tom


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

I'm a CCW permit holder. I do not always carry and I do not "advertise" it when I do. I feel it should be up to the individual and not some outfit like the U.N. that can't even control themselves,to stick their nose in my holster.
Remember,the people at the UN have immunity so if they commit a crime they walk. Do you really think they care about your rights?


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## rldunlap (Jul 22, 2010)

If guns kill people then pencils misspell words and forks made Rosie Odonell fat.


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## crank49 (Apr 7, 2010)

KnickKnack, I see in your intro that you are in Europe and if that is still the case, then you have a totally different perspective. I worked for a Belgian company here in the USA for almost 40 years and have seen the fear and loathing of guns to be a consistant mind set of Europeans. I have as much trouble understanding your perspective as you do ours.

One theory of why less gun control equals less gun related violence is that a criminal will obtain a gun anyway, legal or not, for the power he feels it gives him over his victims. But that criminal is less likely to use that gun to threaten a victim with it if the victim is just as likely to have a gun. In fact, when everone has a weapon, gun, knife, bow and arrow, or whatever, that weapon ceases to be an instrument of authority and control.


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## KnickKnack (Aug 20, 2008)

Yes - I'm from, and still in, Europe.
I was brought up in the UK, and Singapore, where no-one, not even the police, had guns. I remember the first time I arrived in the US at how shocked I was by the guns the police were carrying. I guess there is a different mind-set between the 2 sides of the pond.
I've always felt more secure walking down an English street - where I knew that, broadly speaking, no-one had a gun, than I did walking down a US street where, well, who knows how many of the people I passed had a gun. Except in Salt Lake City, where I was scared for other reasons 

The right to bear arms defines freedom to me
I can understand that.
But I would hope that there would be a line somewhere - "The right to have sarin in my kitchen", "The right to have C4 in my shed", "the right to have a nuclear bomb"? I would just rather, personally, that the line was drawn on the "not have" rather than the "have" side of the line. I'm thankful to have spent most of my life in countries where guns were *not* the norm.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

I lived in New Orleans for almost 12 years. I've been mugged countless times, had my face reconstructed. I've been beaten unmerciifully and robbed on countless locations. Had more orthopedic surgery than a pro football player. Shot twiice. I have No criminal record. Zero. Never stolen anything in my life. All these things occurred before I even had a dog to defend. Now I have a family and a home. I carry everywhere except the shower. To defend my family or another innocent life, I will draw. If I draw, I will fire. If I fire, it will be with training behind the decision. I'm the kindest guy you'll meet on the street, load groceries often, stop at every wreck, work tons of medical pro bono, but if in the event that I must defend myself with deadly force, it's going to happen and it's going to happen no matter what the suits think. If the suits want to deprive me of that right to my defense, I'll defend myself against that too.


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## bunkie (Oct 13, 2009)

I just want to point out that one does not have to be a conservative to embrace the second amendment. I know quite a few non-conservatives who share my opinion that the right bear arms is an essential bulwark to freedom.

Carry on…


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## Maverick44spec (Aug 7, 2011)

JimDaddyo, I agree that there should be strict gun control concerning semi automatic firearms. There already are laws that make it very expensive and very difficult to get one. But they want to get rid of semi automatic firearms too. Everone knowns about the very popular AR-15 platform dot't they? That will be confiscated. Even guns that were never intended to be for the military (like semi auto hunting rifles (small capacity)) will be taken.

Al, you are not alone. It is a right that I am willing to defend, and it is a right that millions of other people will defend. That treaty could possible cause a war within America against a tyrannical government.

This is something that the government either has no idea what it will do to us and them, or they just don't care.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

^typo above that may confuse non gun enthusiasts. I fully-automatic weapon does not require individual depressions of the trigger to fire multiple rounds, an example would be the military Ar-15. A semi-automatic refers to a weapon that requires an intentional trigger depression to issue a round; it is simply just designed so that no reloading is required between trigger depressions; an example would be the AR-15. A typical automatic handgun is actually semi-automatic. This term is often used to distinguish it from a revolver which is actually and ironically semi-automatic in a way.

Whether or not a citizen needs a full automatic weapon is up for challenge. Even a gun nut like me can understand the desire to prohibit fully automatic weapons, as they have little hunting cross-function applicability. I have the requisite certifications to own one, but i'm hard pressed to provide a reason "why" I own them other than "because I can".


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

How else could you practice your lower left to upper right sweeps on your Thompson, Al ? ;=)


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

LOL, David, I own a Thompson for the same reason I old antique Stanelys. Because I feel the nostalgia. Plus, I can't afford to shoot my Thompson. Have you priced .45 ball at that cycle rate? Sex costs less.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

*bunkie SAID: I just want to point out that one does not have to be a conservative to embrace the second amendment. *

THANK YOU

-A VERY Liberal gun owner.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

^thank you x2. I want liberals to own twice as many guns as republicans. They're 4x less likely to use them in haste. Did a republican just say that? Oh yes he did!


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## Gene01 (Jan 5, 2009)

In haste, Al?
You know from training that the average gun fight lasts less than seven seconds and within a seven foot circle.
Self preservation, more often than not, leaves precious little time for judicious consideration.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

1935 will go down in history! For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient and the world will follow our lead into the future!

- Adolph Hitler, 1935.

----------------------------------------

If the government does not trust me to own firearms, why or how can the people be expected to trust the government? There is no doubt in my mind that millions of lives could have been saved if the people were not "brainwashed" about gun ownership and had been well armed.

- Theodore Haas, former prisoner of Dachau concentration camp 
----------------------------------------

Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon 
the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest. 
- Mahatma Ghandi "Gandhi, An Autobiography", M. K. Gandhi, page 446


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Good point, Gene. At my home/compound, I've gained a significant appropriate perimeter, lol. For standard haste, 7 feet always seems a bit broad. I still carry a sigp220 which I'm told is a poor choice for my small frame and 7 foot perimeter you quote. I don't worry. I also have the ability to shoot thunderbolts from my eyes


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

That last part has to come in handy, Al.

Makes me wonder, though, why you need 220V in your shop ;-)


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## mtenterprises (Jan 10, 2011)

Let me open by saying that this Non-shop Talk Forum is causing problems here on this site and that there was at a time a saying that went something like "there are 2 things you don't discuss, politics and religion". This forum is dividing this site and loosing many good people.

*BUT*

I too stand strongly for our 2ond Amendment Rights. I am a NRA Member and I agree that the UN should keep their nose out of our countries business and Our Constitution. I agree with most here about our Rights as gun owners and can also see the views of others. But this is the bottom line where I stand; Gun owners of the United States of America are the very last line of defense for this country and the Rights and Freedom given to us. And as a gun owner I will defend these rights to my last bullet and last drop of blood and any gun owner that won't, should be shot with his own gun. I agree wholeheartedly against this "small arms treaty". You say that we the people do not have a say in this, you are wrong. Write, phone or email your senators in Congress and representatives in the House let them know where you stand. We The People run this country not the politicians they work for us, not are suppose to work for us, not sometimes. They were elected by us to do as We The People want them to by majority not their majority but our majority. So as American Citizens it is also YOUR RIGHT TO VOTE and your VOTE counts. VOTE this November AND next November. Enough said.
The views and comments expressed here may not necessarily be the personal views of all persons but are solely the personal views and comments of the writer and not that of all LumberJocks or the LumberJocks internet site or it's owners.
And now back to our sponsor LumberJocks and Woodworking.

MIKE Trosky
Owner of
MT Enterprises
Gun owner and NRA member, American citizen and VOTER


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

*I lived in New Orleans for almost 12 years. I've been mugged countless times, had my face reconstructed. I've been beaten unmerciifully and robbed on countless locations. Had more orthopedic surgery than a pro football player. Shot twice.*

Al, I've lived in New Orleans for 52 years and never had any of that happen to me. I think there must be something about you that just ticks people off. 

I can understand KnickKnack's point about feeling safer walking the streets when virtually no one has a gun, but I also fully embrace the philosophy behind the second amendment. The U.S. was founded on the notion that citizens ultimately have the right to revolt against unjust government. An armed government and an unarmed citizenry renders that virtually impossible.

We don't have a gun problem in this country…. we have a drug problem. Take the total number of shootings in a year, and deduct all those that are directly or indirectly related to illegal drugs. I suspect the resulting number would be insignificant by comparison.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Neil, like my gun ownership, I enact my thunderbolting with extreme discretion. 
Charlie, I'm not Saint, that's true; I put myself in positions to get injured.
I had my house broken in 5 times, my car stolen twice, and two of my doctor colleagues murdered in the same span.

Hardly speaks to a personal defect


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

I did some quick online research on this and the only things I could find are right-wing propaganda that attempts to polarize people to the political Right. I do NOT buy the argument of the OP.

HorizontalMike
-A VERY Liberal gun owner.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Mike I think the challenge finding objective reporting - is from a couple of reasons -

While you are a gun owner - our POTUS is definitely not.. and he is definitely on the pro control side.

So are many of the journalist…the more boston elites that set the agenda, So with a liberal anti gun president, and a media that refuses to challenge him on anything - there is no objective analysis of the issue out there.

Any UN package would have to carry senate approval - and I believe there are enough Dems that support the second ammendment to prevent the UN overthrow of the second amendment. Even those who choose not to own a gun would be a bit uncomfortable undoing part of the original bill of rights.

But we have to keep our eyes open - - remember the "never let a crisis go to waste" mantra and watch if Wall Street turns violent….things can change in an "accelerated" way without congressional approval


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

I live in Florida. I'm liscensed to carry in 37 states(reciprocal) I carry only when I'm going somewhere I feel a need to.
I have been around and owned guns all my life. I had an M-60 machine gun and a M-14 A2 in Vietnam I see no use for either in the US for personal use.
When I took the class(CCW) I got my eyes opened to a lot of things and law. Things I thought were true were not and other things are true. I feel I'm a better citizen because I took these classes. I remember when Florida first proposed the concealed carry law and people were saying there would be shoot outs in streets etc. Well guess what 99.99 % of the time these "shoot outs" are by some snot nosed 16 y/o punk or drug dealers that are not law abiding anyway. These people will have guns law or no laws.
Just because you have a permit to carry does not give you the right to use it. You have to abide by laws just like everyone else or you go to jail too.
Bottom line, I hope I don't have to use my weapon but I will not hesitate. And if the government passes some stupid law thinking I'll give up my guns I have a news bulliten for them. And if anybody in the government votes to take away my guns I will never vote for them.
Like a lot of things, people are against something until it comes home to roost in their life. Then they change their minds.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Mike: That was my first instinct when reading this. I should have at least checked Snopes before I bothered to repsond.


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## Maverick44spec (Aug 7, 2011)

Mike, I agree that there is a lot of people who are trying to scare people to the right, but I'm not one of them. I do not care if someone is liberal, conservative, or anything in between. I only care about protecting our rights. Look at the strictest gun control laws in Europe. Those laws will be ours if we don't stop them now. The Senate may not pass it. But what if they do? How will we not only protect ourselves from criminals, but from the federal government who constently tries to get more power and possibly threaten our rights?


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Mike is pretty reliable with his facts. I'll have to do some looking of my own.


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## Maverick44spec (Aug 7, 2011)

Charlie, All this may just be a rumor. (I really hope it is) I only know what I have read from different sources. Even if it is just a rumor, I still think we should be very cautious about it.

Here are some of the stories I read.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybell/2011/06/07/u-n-agreement-should-have-all-gun-owners-up-in-arms/

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/us-rep-to-un-says-obama-wants-senate-to-ratify-arms-treaty-132183523.html


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Paris, I'm with you, brother. I take these rumors very seriously and I meant in now way that'd I'd be checking up on YOUR data. I'm just glad for the heads-up


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## DLCW (Feb 18, 2011)

The purpose and agenda of gun-control is and always has been disarming the American citizen so that the government can wield unchallenged control over the population. As long as the general population is armed, they will never try to gain this unchallenged control because the people can and will revolt against them.

I would hope that the American citizens in the military would side against a tyrannical government and side with the people causing the overthrow of that tyrannical. I know when I was in the military, in this sort of revolt, I would have sided with the "People" not the tyrants.


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## derosa (Aug 21, 2010)

I don't think we have too much to worry about at the moment with the current crop of supreme court justices as they tend to lean towards heavy preservation of gun rights. I also think that there shouldn't be an attempt to alienate liberals on an issue like this, I like to think of myself as the slightly liberal side of center and I own a semi-auto SKS and a 12g shotgun and I wouldn't register(didn't when living in a city that required it) or give up either; and there are lots like me. I also don't see the issues with semi-auto, I have no desire for an full auto and can't see why people need them except to oppose the government should it ever be necessary but I'm not paranoid enough to think that will happen any time soon. There is a reason why the amendment is 2nd only after life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness and I think our courts and citizens would prevent the UN from overstepping their bounds.


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## usnret (Jul 14, 2011)

I f we ban guns you will leave law abiding citizens defenseless. Criminals will still have guns because "they dont care about laws". I uphold and defend the constitution, I took an oath over 20 years ago to do so. They will not take my guns away from me, unless they shoot me first.


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## Knothead62 (Apr 17, 2010)

Wow! What a hot topic! Remember, it's on the non-shop forum. Enter at your own risk. The UN wants to ban ALL private ownership of firearms. Period. However, in the USA, less than one percent of crimes involve firearms. It's interesting that countries like Australia, Great Britain, and South Africa had sweeping gun bans but can't figure out why crime increased!
Consider the following:
Doctors vs Gun Owners
(A) The number of physicians in the U.S. is 700,000.
(B) Accidental deaths caused by Physicians per year are 120,000.
(C) Accidental deaths per physician is 0.171.
Statistics courtesy of U.S. Dept of Health and Human Services.
Now think about this:
Guns
(A) The number of gun owners in the U.S. is 80,000,000. (Yes, that's 80 million)
(B) The number of accidental gun deaths per year, all age groups, is 1,500.
(C) The number of accidental deaths per gun owner is .000188.
Statistics courtesy of FBI
So, statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners.
Remember, 'Guns don't kill people, doctors do." 
FACT: NOT EVERYONE HAS A GUN, BUT ALMOST EVERYONE HAS AT LEAST ONE DOCTOR.
Please alert your friends to this alarming threat.
Also, consider how many people are killed by cigarettes! 
Fully automatic weapons are classed by the BATFE as machineguns and are HIGHLY regulated! It is interesting that LEGALLY OWNED AND LICENSED weapon I have just described has never been used in a crime. Call a gun shop that sells Class 3 firearms and ask what the licensing procedure and fees are. You might be surprised.
Operation Fast and Furious seems more like Dumb and Dumber! 
cr1 is right- to change the Second Amendment would be impossible as long as I'm around.
The problem is not what people hold in their hand but what they hold in their heart and mind. How many people are killed by knives? What about knife control?
I lived in Queens, NY in the early 1960's. The Sullivan Act (q. v.) was a gun control law that was passed by one gang to prevent their rivals from owning guns. Guess who ignored the law? There were two sayings- 1. If you can't find it in New York, it doesn't exist. 2. If you have the money and know the right people, you can buy ANYTHING.
Think on this- Hitler took over Poland in a week by getting the registration forms from the local courthouse. The gunowners were told- give us your guns or get shot. The Warsaw Ghetto uprising failed because the Jewish people couldn't get enough guns. The Nazis had all of them!


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## mtenterprises (Jan 10, 2011)

http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Read.aspx?ID=7004

For more information on the UN / ATT just type in UN in the NRA search box.

MIKE


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

All my guns were lost in a horrible boating accident, they are somewhere at the bottom of the ocean now.

Slightly off topic I got a call from the NRA a few weeks ago and the guy on the phone couldnt even tell me why we have the 2nd ammendment, I was so disappointed in this. He spouted off some crap about hunting.

The US has the 2nd ammendment so that the people will have power to overthrow the government if they feel the need is there. The hunting and personal protection things are just bonuses.

Again slightly off topic, In Maryland if someone breaks in my house and I shoot them I have to prove I tried to get away first or I will get charged with a crime.


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## peteg (Sep 2, 2010)

It is an interesting debate you have going on here, in NZ the ongoing debate has raised its head again for legislation to be passed allowing our Police to carry side arms as part of their "kit", they are currently "unarmed", guns are made available on a "as required" basis ??!!
We also have a crazy law in NZ govening Joe citizen, in that the "owner" requires a license to own a gun(s) which means I could have a license & own a dozen guns with no record, i.e there would be no record of serial #'s make etc, the guns themself are not licensed. The license is for specific classes, like had gun, rifel etc but not quantity etc.
I hope you retain your right to exercise the !st LAW of NATURE which is "Self Preservation"


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Pat that is what I say when someone wants to see what I own for registration….they are lost but I can find them late at night if the house is dark and someone is kicking at the door!


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## Maverick44spec (Aug 7, 2011)

patcollins said "All my guns were lost in a horrible boating accident, they are somewhere at the bottom of the ocean now."

Are you a member of FirearmsTalk forums by any chance? Did you lose them on a FTF trip?

Knothead, are you a member too? I just saw that exact thing on FTF a few days ago.

Just curious 

The right to defend ourselves is a right, not a privilage. I concider anyone who threatens that that right a treat to me and my family. The Government is here to SERVE US, not for us to serve them. The 2A makes sure that it stays that way for the most part.

___


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

--------------
Yes snopes marks this as a false rumour - however it is ONLY FALSE BECAUSE THE E-Mail states that it was *signed*.
Indeed as the Forbes article points out these are the provisions of the UN proposal (IF PASSED AND RATIFIED):

insert paste:
While the terms have yet to be made public, if passed by the U.N. and ratified by our Senate, it will almost certainly force the U.S. to:

1.Enact tougher licensing requirements, creating additional bureaucratic red tape for legal firearms ownership.
2.Confiscate and destroy all "unauthorized" civilian firearms (exempting those owned by our government of course).
3.Ban the trade, sale and private ownership of all semi-automatic weapons (any that have magazines even though they still operate in the same one trigger pull - one single "bang" manner as revolvers, a simple fact the ant-gun media never seem to grasp).
4.Create an international gun registry, clearly setting the stage for full-scale gun confiscation.
5.In short, overriding our national sovereignty, and in the process, providing license for the federal government to assert preemptive powers over state regulatory powers guaranteed by the Tenth Amendment in addition to our Second Amendment rights.

So there is certainly a very real reason to be concerned


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## Jim Jakosh (Nov 24, 2009)

We should have gotten out of the UN a long time ago. When they start trying to change our constitution, I'd say the time is now!


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

i dont own a gun and probably never will but to those who would like to own one i say go ahead its your constitutional right. anything in the wrong persons hands can do harm. what i think is good for me isnt the same for everyone and that goes for much more than gun ownership. carry on fellas, but ive always thought that uniting is much easier than dividing.


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## Maverick44spec (Aug 7, 2011)

We should have gotten out of the UN a long time ago. When they start trying to change our constitution, I'd say the time is now!

Thats exactly what I think.

The government is oversteping it's boundaries. Just look how many time the Gov has violated the Constitution in the last few years. They are getting to a point where they don't care if it's upheld or not. They will do waht the want and it will be law until the supreme court decides otherwise (usually, that take several months to several years). I am not going to say anything about Obama but this. The man has no respect for our 2nd Amendment rights.


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## woodsmithshop (Sep 10, 2008)

No one, the UN or the President of the United States, or the US Senate, has the right to overrule, or bypass the US Constitution


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

I want two of all of them










that one made me lol loudly


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## KnickKnack (Aug 20, 2008)

I know these off-topic conversations have been known to cause, shall we say, "consternation" amongst other site members.
But I'd like to say that I've learned a lot here - both from the informed comments and the research I've done on my own prompted by those comments.

I still *hate* guns, but I have a much better appreciation and understanding of why other people might not.
Nett gain!


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## Maverick44spec (Aug 7, 2011)

KnickKnack, their not for everyone but everyone should have a right to them. I believe I understand your hatred of guns now. Over on your side of the pond, guns are looked down on right? People are taught that guns are bad throught their entire life right? If someone grows up always being told that, it is almost impossible to change thier mind about it. I have no problem with someone not wanting to own, or have anything to do with guns. Just as long as they don't try to take them away from me and every other gun owner.

Al, I haven't had much sleep in the last 24 hours so I don't get it.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Knick Knack, I completely understand your hatred. If I had a choice to avoid guns, I would. Please believe me when I say this. I'm a medical examiner (forensic pathologist, MD), so no one here knows more damage that guns can cause. I own them because I have to.


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## Maverick44spec (Aug 7, 2011)

Yes, no one want's to have to defend themselves. That is something I hope I will never have to do. The reason I love them so much is because I like to shoot for fun. I like competitions and I like just shooting for the heck of it and hunting. The vast majority of the guns I have or want are not semi automatic. They are bolt action, single action, lever action, ect. I would love to live in a world where the only reason you have a gun is to hunt or to have fun, but sadly, that is not our world.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Al, I'm not sure what the significance of that photo is, but I find it extremely creepy.


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## Maverick44spec (Aug 7, 2011)

Yeah, its creaping me out too. I like that vintage computer though.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Charlie,
Looks like Al put up a nicely Photoshopped image of Bill Gates with his identical twin "Billy Gates" from the early 1980s.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Ah the gun issue again. I grew up in England and I concur with what KnickKnack's experience was there. I have also lived in Africa and I know full well my experience there too.
I really don't think the UN is pointing at the US (although I have not read the article) and I tend to think there are other concerns they are trying to address. I support the 2nd amendment in the US, but the thought of Africans, including children running around with AK47s and popping off other tribes stuns me, as does reckless deployment of Guns does in Afghanistan, Iraq and numerous other war torn regions.
It is a quandary, let the US keep their guns, but get them out of the hands of irresponsible nations. How do we do this???? Any suggestions?


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

I should have recognized Bill and Billy. It's* STILL* creepy.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

It's creepier than guns, hence the post. Mike, I only wish I was that handy at photoshop. I spotted it one day and found it so creepy that I saved it.

I also enjoy shooting as a hobby but it's become and exceptionally expensive one lately. I've got guns for all occasions but sadly, mine spend 99.9% of their time dormant in my waistband. Happily dormant, I must say.


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## Maverick44spec (Aug 7, 2011)

Al, I know how you feel, I only have two guns right now (have plans to get some guns for cowboy action shooting soon). One is a Remington model 700 30-06 and the other is an old (1901) crescent sxs 16 ga shotgun. They are definately not the cheapest things to shoot. I have been wanting (in addition to the cowboy guns) a mosin nagant. If you get the ammo in bulk, it can be almost as cheap to shoot as a .22.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Al, trust me…. the only kind of gun you want to have in your waistband is a dormant one.

As a southerner, I'm almost ashamed to say that I currently own only one gun (a Colt Model 1917 45 DA revolver just like the one below), and it's a bit large for the waistband.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

But it looks really good on your waistband! I probably should have said "under" my waistband. I'm a SigP220 guy myself, Glock21sf guy if I think I'm going to we wading in the mud, and an Ed Brown 1911 when I just want to feel beautiful


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

I've got an MG42 which I carry in an Altoids tin. It's cool and takes your breath away. The mints are good also.


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## Gene01 (Jan 5, 2009)

*Roger,*
My G27, or it's bigger brother the G35, won't fit in an Altoids tin. But either will definitely take your breath away!

*Charlie,*
That is a gorgeous Colt!


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## Maverick44spec (Aug 7, 2011)

When is start carrying, I'll probably go with a small 1911 or a stub nose revolver. I really want it to be something I could take to the range and shoot for fun.

That is a beautiful gun Charlie.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Paris, or you could go the other direction and get one of the ugliest mugs around, the Para Warthog. I've wanted one for as long as I can remember, for sheer unattractiveness (and of course carryability and enormous stopping power). I've been having a hard time parting with $1000 for a gun that hurts really bad coming out of an iwb holster


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## TheBossQ (Jan 10, 2011)

*It is a quandary, let the US keep their guns, but get them out of the hands of irresponsible nations. How do we do this???? Any suggestions?*

Let the U.S. keep their guns? It's not a quandry at all. No one *lets* us do anything. We are a sovereign nation and no one decides what is best for us, except "We the People". We are not part of that equation. If something needs to be done in those other nations, so be it. But those actions are not predicated upon whether or not we go along with the U.N. "masterplan".

I understand the view that there is a need to disarm "irresponsible nations". However, you'll never convince me to "be a good boy and give up your gun so that everyone else can see what a good example you are". I don't believe there exists an outside solution. At some point, the good people of those nations are going to have to rise up against the forces that threaten their liberty. Or accept being slaves to those forces.

If the world community feels intervention and disarming these places is the way to go, go for it. You'd better put a couple "but we're not talking about the U.S.A." clauses in your masterplan, or prepare to look really stupid. Which, come to think of it, is the U.N.'s specialty.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

^I really enjoy that post, Boss. I'm not one of those underground stockpiling types, but to be honest, I can understand their compulsion. I love my Country and the people in it. Our Country has proven time again on our own soil that blood can and will be shed over convictions, for course "rights", too (which has become an adulterated term in modern times). I'm a reasonable guy, don't stockpile arms, have stamps for anything unusual, and generally keep to myself. My right to bear arms is worth my life. It's really that simple and it may sound entirely absurd coming from a relatively well adjusted professional in the U.S. You may die for animal rights, your God, your disagreement with modern medical techniques, or guns. It's choice and sometimes it's ugly, depending upon who's gazing upon it.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

^I actually do, too, Cr1. I'd pin the beavertail and get some extra crosshatching just to "ugly" it up a bit more. It's no star on the range, that's for sure. I'm sure you noticed "match" on the barrel, lol. Para's good stuff, though. A Sig guy can be a Para guy too. I'm considering a downpayment on a Wilson IRL.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

I'm an old school revolver type like Charlie. Picked this early S&W 686 .357 MAG 4in (pre dash, pre-lock, etc.) up back in 1984 (bought it New) while in the Park Service at Yosemite. They frowned on carrying pistols at the time. The argument was that it was easier to reload a revolver one-handed, but after Glock (and others) started putting out pistols with magazines that were 2-3 times that of my revolver THAT argument quickly went away. Now that I am in Texas and have NO "open carry", this is a bit big to get out much though great for the Home.

My 686 came with square butt Goncalo Alves (Zebrawood) grips, though I swapped them out for Pacmayr Grippers so mine looks very similar to the bottom one now.


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## ArlinEastman (May 22, 2011)

Did you know that the US pays Billions of Dollars a year just to host the UN in America.
I say stop the cash flow and boot them out too.
Arlin


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