# Issues with Water Based Aniline Dye



## EB331 (May 6, 2011)

Hi Folks,

I am new to this forum and even more new to wood finishing. I've always loved working with wood. This happens to be the first artistic project I've taken on. And I've hit a wall.

It involves tiger maple and water based aniline dyes.

I have done numerous tests on scraps and just can't seem to get the dye from running. This finish was totally inspired by Trifern. I plan on using multiple colors as he does so often. My issue is that once I apply the 2nd color my first color bleeds. It looks fantastic for about 30 seconds and then it starts bleeding all over the place. It's looks awful in a very short period of time.

Here are the pics….



















What I did on this piece was split it into 4 tests. I left the black on for different amounts of time to see the affect I wanted to go with.

My process is to wet the wood a little then apply black. Leave it soak and them wipe it off with a wet rag. It then sets until the next day. When I apply the 2nd color I do not wet the wood. I just apply the dye, wait a minute or so and wipe any excess. Then the bleeding begins.

Can someone tell me what I am doing wrong or perhaps not doing at all?

Thank you!
Ed


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## EB331 (May 6, 2011)

Oops I just realized that those 2 are the same picture. Here is the other..


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## stevenhsieh (Jan 8, 2010)

Water based Dyes are water soluble, so when you put green dye over dried yellow dye it will wake it up.
It will bleed into water based finishes especially if brushed or wiped.

Best to apply it is to spray even coats.


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## EB331 (May 6, 2011)

Hi Steven!

Thanks for your reply! I'd really like to avoid spraying. I'm not setup for it. I'm using foam sponges now. Do you think a different applicator (other than spray) would work?

Or perhaps a different "vehicle"? I have plenty of powder left so mixing a new batch wouldn't be a problem.

Thanks again!
Ed


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## DLCW (Feb 18, 2011)

Ed,

Like Steven indicated dyes are either water or alcohol soluble. When you apply a different color dye over another dye it will dissolve the first coat and bleed them together. Brushing, wiped or sprayed will all yield the same results. Other then using stains and seal between coats with shellac, I don't know of any way to put one color of dye over another color of dye and not have color bleed.


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## EB331 (May 6, 2011)

Hi Don!

Thank you very much!! I was worried that this may be the case. Bummer.

Thanks,
Ed


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## GaryK (Jun 25, 2007)

Maybe try mixing the color you want in advance? Then all it takes is one application.

You can sand most all of the top surface away leaving the color in the curl.


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## EB331 (May 6, 2011)

Hi Gary!

Thanks for the suggestion!! That's something I haven't thought of. I may just have to shift gears and start thinking along these lines.

Thanks!
Ed


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## shipwright (Sep 27, 2010)

Not exactly on your topic but the results of my experiments with aniline dyes may be of interest to you. They are in my blog here: http://lumberjocks.com/shipwright/blog/20887
I learned a few tricks and techniques along the way.


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## Camper (Jul 31, 2010)

Been following this thread and looked up the blog you were referring to by Trifern which I believe is here.

I am surprised that he did not mention the step of sealing with shellac between color coats which leads me to believe that he did not. I wonder why his colors did not bleed but yours do…and if in fact he just forgot to mention it or that there is another reason why his turned out fine…

Thanks for posting, interesting experiment.


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## EB331 (May 6, 2011)

Hi Paul!

Thanks for the link! Wow, that's incredible work there!! Beautifully done!

I like how you used the bleeding affect to your advantage. I'm not sure I want to do the same. If I let the black blend into the red it becomes a shade of red that I'm not too fond of. I've also gotten further on other tests. After I apply the 3rd color it really makes all three colors weak.

I'm sure I'm missing something. More than likely several things. Lol.


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

Ed:

Yes, it will definitely bleed through and blend with the underlaying color. But notice the way Trifern does it…he sands areas of the work aggressively between dye coats, going down to almost bare wood in some areas. This means that the new dye color will blend with color underneath but remain pure color in those areas that were sanded. He then says that the first applied coat of wipe-on poly does a lot to bring back out the black contrast areas.

If you don't sand areas to bare like Trifern, the resulting coats will be just a solid blend of the dyes.


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## EB331 (May 6, 2011)

Hi Camper!

That is the blog I was referring to. I am wondering the same thing. I emailed Joe to see if he can offer his expertise. He mentions that he uses "sponge brushes and cheap paper towels".

I wonder if I'm not sanding correctly.

I plan on going back at the test piece tomorrow.

Thanks,
Ed


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## EB331 (May 6, 2011)

Hi Jay!!

I just missed that as I replied to another suggestion. I think you are right!! It's the sanding I am not doing so well with.

I'm excited to get back in the garage and test some more!!

Thank you!!

Ed


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## EB331 (May 6, 2011)

Good afternoon Gents!!

I had some time today to head back into the garage. I decided to try again adjusting my technique. First I sanded. I purposely sanded more aggressively in certain areas and not so much in others.










I also thought I would try applying the dye in very thin coats, wiping quickly. I was hoping to limit the amount of saturation. And to build the color slowly. I think it made a noticeable difference.










As you can see there is still bleeding, but I don't think it's as bad. Looking closely I feel that I can correct the issues I see now by sanding when it's completely dry. Fingers crossed!!

I'll report back once I move on.

Cheers,
Ed


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## EB331 (May 6, 2011)

Good afternoon everyone!!

I had a chance to get some more work done on this piece. Unfortunately the results, again, were unflattering.

I sanded more and applied the yellow.



















I also took a close-up pic of the real issue I'm having. These little black specs form after applying a new color. It's re-dissolving the existing dye. Maybe I didn't sand well enough. After sanding these weren't there though.










Has anyone used multiple colors like this? Do you think the concentration of dyes is too weak? I was thinking of mixing a new batch, twice the concentration. I figure it can't hurt.

Ultimately I may need to settle for one color and stop torturing myself. BUT before I concede I'm going to go at it at least one more time. 

Cheers,
Ed


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## EB331 (May 6, 2011)

Morning guys!

I started another test last night. I'm convinced that my sanding is poor. Here are the results.





































I noticed that these "black specs" That I thought were a side affect from bleeding were there before I applied the second color.

I do like the concentrated red much better than the previous batch. I also do no think there is as much, if any bleeding here.

I have another question. Will sanding with higher grit before applying the 1st color reduce the amount of specs? Or will I need to deal with sanding these out either way?

I'm going to do more testing with different grits.

Thanks!
Ed


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## Camper (Jul 31, 2010)

Ed, your latest "batch" looks great IMHO. I am still following with interest. Can you elaborate on what grit sand paper you are using at each stage?

Do you think those "black specs" maybe wood dust left from sanding which turn-up absorbing more of the dye? It may be a good idea to blow the piece thoroughly with compressed air and/or wipe it with mineral spirits and a clean rag before applying the dye to ensure that you have gotten rid of all the sanding dust.

As for sanding I have found out that the higher you go on grit size (finer grit), the less the absorption of stain (I assume it should apply to dyes as well). That's why sometimes it is recommended that the end grain is sanded with finer grit than the rest to even out stain absorption. So using finer grit may limit the overall dye absorption and lead to a lighter color. This is just speculation by the way. I hope someone with experience chimes in.

Thanks for sharing. I think this has come a long way from your first batch though.


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## HalDougherty (Jul 15, 2009)

Any scratches, dings, or other defects will absorb more dye than solid wood. I sand my maple gunstocks to at least 320 grit before coloring. Sometimes I go much higher before adding color. After dying, I wet sand using wet/dry sandpaper with pure tung oil starting at 400 grit. I can't wait to see your final project.


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## EB331 (May 6, 2011)

Morning Camper!!

You know I cannot rule out the possibility of those being wood dust. Darn it! Haha. I will pay extra attention to this now. I did start a new test last night sanding higher, up to 180 grit. After I finished sanding the "newest" test I used my shop vac to clean it. Not sure it's the best method. I took a close look at the grain and it looked very smooth.










I soaked it with black, kept it wet for 10 minutes then wiped with a wet rag. I am going to sand it tomorrow. I'm not sure if this help with the bleeding or not, but that last red one I left dry closer to 24 hours. The previous test were more like 18 hours. I'm going to make sure I wait at least 24 from now on.

How do I plan on containing myself? MORE TESTS. Haha.

Thank you very much for your input!!!! It's a big help to me.

Ed


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## EB331 (May 6, 2011)

Morning Hal!!

I appreciate that info!!! I'm going to start a new test today. I am definitely going to high in grit. I was going to go up to 220, but I think I'll stop at 320 instead.

Thank you Hal!

Ed


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## EB331 (May 6, 2011)

Good evening,

I spent some time on the project tonight. I think I'm getting closer…..



















If it weren't for those black specs I'd be very happy with this piece. Heck I'm pretty happy anyway. Haha. I couldn't resist taking a pic while it was still wet. However the bottom was drying so there's not a consistent sheen.

I did start another test. I prepped up to 320 grit, let the black soak for 15 minutes and wiped with wet rag….










I can't wait to go at another test piece. Right now I have 2 waiting that are dyed black. I'll let this one sit and go at the other tomorrow.

Thanks again for the tips guys!!

I will be in touch,
Ed


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## BobTheFish (May 31, 2011)

I don't know CRAP about aniline dying….

BUT, seeing your failure has answered a question regarding a stain I spent a hellish amount of time hand sanding off a chair the past few weeks! I'm convinced it was aniline dyed as it seems to have soaked upp the stain far more than any other stain I've had to remove, and like yours, seems to soak deeply into the softer grain.

I also like the effects you are getting from staining, sanding, and restaining. Very interesting. The red, yellow, and latest look great.

Here's an idea though: Have you considered alternating batches of water based and oil based stains? Is there a way to do the aniline as an oil stain? the oil/water alternation might cause less running in your finishes due to their insolubility with one another. Secondarily, if you don't have a spray gun, have you tried a dollar store spray bottle, and just lightly misting? OR better, one of these: http://www.amazon.com/Cuisipro-Stainless-Steel-Spray-Non-Aerosol-Mister/dp/B00009V4CA ?

Just some ideas.


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## EB331 (May 6, 2011)

Morning Bob!!

Thank you for the kind words!! I have to pass the credit for these colors and technique to Trifern. His projects and blog have totally inspired me to do this one.

Judging by your recent experience probably do not have to tell you, but once you use the dye it's very hard to get back to bare wood. At least in my very limited amount of experience. Haha.

I tried sanding an old test piece the other night. I sanded this with a random orbit (80 grit, lowest I have in pads) for almost 45 minutes and this was the result….










I'm not sure I'm able to remove it. No big deal though. It's just a test piece. It did make me realize that if I goof up really badly I cannot start over. I'll be extra careful now. 

I have thought about switching vehicles between layers. I may do this too. It involves ordering a new batch of dyes that are alcohol soluble. I figure I'll exhaust every option with these before ordering others. It's something that on my list of options though.

I haven't thought about spraying the dyes. I'll look into that.

Thank you for the suggestions!!! I appreciate it.

Ed


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## BobTheFish (May 31, 2011)

Alcohol is water soluble, remember. The best you can hope for is quicker dry times, so you'll still have to apply it very lightly (based off of what the other comments are and just some rudimentary science).
Here's the monstrosity that I've been sanding:



















I got it pretty close to bare, but figured I may as well stain it back. Now I'm having issues with regular stain penetration.

It's making me want to turn to alcohol myself….


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## Millo (Jan 19, 2010)

those black specs simply look like open pores to me. I've had that happen on curly maple, but w/ a brown Transtint stain w/ shellac. The problem was the surface on that one board was not as smooth as the ones on the other sides of my little project.


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## EB331 (May 6, 2011)

Thanks Bob!!

Ya know a lot of what I read about aniline dyes is people seal them before the final finish. That may be what's happened there. That grain may have been sealed good. It could explain why you're having a problem getting penetration.

I'm sure someone else with more experience can correct me if I'm wrong. And give you some advice.

Ed


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## EB331 (May 6, 2011)

Hi Millo!!

Thanks for your reply. That helps a lot. I will be extra diligent with my prep!!!

Thanks,
Ed


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## BobTheFish (May 31, 2011)

The pores response makes sense for that portion, perhaps, but I had deep pinkish purple streaking that followed the grain, and though water or moisture would leach out the dye, it was quite in there.

Those pictures are also after two rounds of finish stripper, and halfway through my second round of sanding with 60 grit. It was REAAALLY in there.

Finishing the wood before staining it huh? interesting proposition. It may just be huge amounts of humidity in the air these past three or four days. It almost feels like I'm wading in puddles of air today, and it's easy to forget how much the ambient weather affects woodworking. I'm going to try and remove some of the humidity from my apartment, see if that does the trick, and if not, might look into what you propose.


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## EB331 (May 6, 2011)

Hi Bob,

Sorry I didn't mean to propose finishing before staining. From what I read about people using aniline dyes. They dye the wood, seal the dye then apply poly or other clear coat. The sealing part may be what you're contending with. Those nooks and crannies may be sealed in dye. Making it very tough to stain over.

My apologies for the confusion.

Ed


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## stevenhsieh (Jan 8, 2010)

Ed

You never said what your trying to achieve.
If bleeding with dyes are the problem. One way to fix it is to use water based dye (1st color) first. When to apply a different color use a different soluble dye like alcohol.
2nd color use alcohol soluble dyes.

For those who are still confuse of types of dyes look here
http://www.popularwoodworking.com/article/making_sense_of_dyes


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## stevenhsieh (Jan 8, 2010)

Best to use a white china bristle brush. Go to your paint store Benjamin Moore or Sherman William to buy them. Not home depot or lowes.


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## EB331 (May 6, 2011)

Hi Steven!!

Thanks for the tips!! Great link too!! I am very close to ordering alcohol soluble dyes. I have a few tests left before I go in that direction.

I am trying to achieve a similar look to a project by Trifern. This is the technique I've been trying to apply….

http://lumberjocks.com/trifern/blog/9400

I'm wondering if I sanded that last piece too much? The one below as well. Or maybe just too much in certain areas. Specifically around the flame. I feel that the dye around the flame is penetrating so deeply that I cannot sand it back.

It's been suggested (elsewhere) to use a sand sealer? Everything I've read says this is a bad idea. At some point I'll try anything. Just not sure I want to do this yet.

Here's a good example of what I'm trying to describe….









I did not like the way this looked last night. I felt I took to much off so I re-dyed it. I'm going to take off less next time and see how it looks.

Thanks,
Ed


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## stevenhsieh (Jan 8, 2010)

It seems to me you have sanded way too much the dye off. Re apply again and sand light. It does not take that much pressure.

The picture above shows dye have penetrate deep. That is what dyes do, they penetrate. You will have to sand.
There is no need for sanding sealer.


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## EB331 (May 6, 2011)

Thank you Steven!!! I really appreciate it!!

I can't wait to get out in the garage and try again. Hopefully in a little while.

Cheers,
Ed


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## EB331 (May 6, 2011)

Morning everyone,

I took your advice Steven. Sanded less aggressively.



















I can already see that the spots are not an issue. I still have a lot to though.

I did this Saturday so I will proceed tonight and report back.

Thanks,
Ed


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## EB331 (May 6, 2011)

Hey Guys,

I got a little more done. I'm not sure my new approach is working for me. The good news is the specs are not visible. The bad news is there is waaaay to much black.

Sanded the red…










Applied the yellow….










I'm thinking it's time to change dyes, but before I do….How long would you leave the dye soak on the board before wiping? This is in regards to the black. Maybe I'm not wiping fast enough and it's getting too deep?

Thanks,
Ed


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## stevenhsieh (Jan 8, 2010)

I actually like it.

*On this one sand it off a little more.*


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## EB331 (May 6, 2011)

Morning Steven,

That's the piece actually. I should have removed more before proceeding. Doh! Haha.

Thanks,
Ed


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## EB331 (May 6, 2011)

Hey guys,

I got some more testing done. The results are still lacking. I've gotten advice saying I should try to seal the wood. Now again EVERYTHING I read says do not seal before dye. It's getting to the point where I will try anything. So that's what I'm going to try.

This is a new test, bare wood. I stained one side with black, trying a slightly different technique. To no avail. This piece really highlights the issue I am having. The dye is penetrating so deeply that I cannot avoid these specs…..










The other side I applied a thin layer of shellac. My hopes here are that I can sand the shellac back and those little pores will be sealed. When I apply the black it will come out more evenly. We'll see.










Also I figured the left side being black and not what I want. I went back out and soaked it. 1st water then black dye. I did not wipe the dye. It's a black as night. I plan on getting some more sanding done soon. I'll keep y'all posted.

Thanks,
Ed


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## EB331 (May 6, 2011)

Morning gents,

I sanded back this new test. The dye side, no difference…



















The shellac side however….




























I feel like I'm inching closer. I'm going to apply a thin layer off red today and see how it looks. I've been advised to try an conditioner if the shellac doesn't work out. That's my plan.

I'll be in touch.

Thanks,
Ed


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## Iguana (Jun 22, 2011)

Ed, this is a most interesting and informative thread. Your dedication to the scientific method in pursuit of a particular artistic effect is impressive! I am keenly awaiting the post where you discover the right piece of magic that makes everything work, and then share that with all of us.


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## EB331 (May 6, 2011)

Thank you Iguana!! I appreciate the kind words. I certainly hope this helps someone. This is painful. I'd hate for others to have to go through it this way. Tis how we learn I suppose.

I did get some more testing done in the last couple of days. I feel I am inching forward. Here goes….

After applying the red to the shellac piece I do not feel it's going to work. Didn't even take pics of it.

I went and grabbed wood conditioner. It made a big difference, but I need to adjust to it.

I did 2 tests. One using the conditioner as directed on the can (not fully dried). The other I let the conditioner dry.

At first I thought the wet conditioner was working against me, pulling the dye deeper. This may be the case. However it evened it out so much that even with specks I feel it "could' be tolerable. They created more of a haze rather than standing out. I've come to far to settle though. 

Here's a few pics of this test. I didn't have time to prep my bigger test so I grabbed a few strips that were already sanded. I will test on bigger pieces soon.























































Then I applied yellow.





































I rushed this piece. I should have added more layers of red once the previous dried. I feel the red mucked up the black well. I got excited and went too fast. (that's what she said! LOL)

I will be back at it soon. Most likely Tomorrow. I have plenty of time to dwell. Ugh.

Thanks,
Ed


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## tbone (Apr 24, 2008)

Very early on in this thread, Camper mentioned using shellac between the dye applications. This seems reasonable-especially on a highly figured wood like this one.
Some may call it a 'washcoat' and some may call it a 'sanding sealer', but the idea is to help fill the larger pores as well as get the fibers to 'stand up' and absorb the dyes at a more uniform rate. This would eliminate the blotchiness that is showing up, as well as allow you to layer on the colors without them bleeding together. The washcoat would be a barrier between the colors.


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## EB331 (May 6, 2011)

Hi tbone!!

Thanks for reminding me. I am getting around to trying sealers now. I put those suggestions on the back burner until I went through the "standard" recommended options. That being "sealers defeat the purpose when using dyes." This is another example of not believing everything you read. LOL.

Thank you!!

Ed


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## Porosky (Mar 10, 2009)

looks just the same as my stuff did… poly them up and it all will POP!...I used waterbased poly…believe me it's night and day after you poly it…. completely different…


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

Ed:

Still following with interest. Glad you are working through it.

I think one of the things you should try is to only add top colors to areas where you sand…not to the whole board. For example, sand away some of the red areas, but only apply yellow dye to the sanded areas with a little overlap into the red areas. You should achieve a red/orange/yellow gradient in this way.

I don't think you'll get the overall results you want by global applications (other than the base red over the entire black) because it'll always bleed through. My thinking is that Trifern only applies yellow to areas he intends to be somewhat yellow, thus allowing bleed-through only in areas where the colors DO overlap.

Hope that makes sense…


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## EB331 (May 6, 2011)

Thank you poroskywood!!! I appreciate the reply.


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## EB331 (May 6, 2011)

Thank you Jay!!

I just got done messing with a new test. I decided to use a brown instead of black. So I let this dry last night…










Then today I watched this video (http://www.finewoodworking.com/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesArticle.aspx?id=30182). This guy added an amber first then black on top. Both thinly and spreading it well. It dried more of a gray instead of deep black. When I got in today I decided to wet and wipe the brown then add black on top. Trying to make it thin and grayish.










I then waited 20 minutes to dry enough to sand (following the tutorial). I went at this piece very aggressively trying to remove as much as possible.










I then applied some yellow around the middle. I do not want to burst this,but I wanted to try the technique. I figure I can adjust later if it works. Just as your suggesting Jay!!!

The results….



















I thought maybe it could use more black. Then I tilted it….










I cannot wait to hit this with poly. I'm going to let it dry completely first.

I'm not there yet, but I feel I'm on the cusp. I truly appreciate all the suggestions and comments.

Thanks guys!

Ed


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

Glad that is working for you. It's a lot like watercolors, where the areas you paint will blend in with the painted areas underneath it…at least that was my feeling after contemplating it for a couple of weeks now.

Most people HATE finishing…so it's great when people see the value in techniques like this…not many people are persistent enough to try it!

Nice going, Ed!


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## EB331 (May 6, 2011)

Thank you J!! I appreciate the kind words!! And thanks again for taking the time to make suggestions! I need em. Haha.

I am very happy with my latest test. However I do not think it is "perfect". Here are some shots I took tonight. Right after my 3rd coat of poly.




























While I am LOVING the left side. The right side is pretty muddy. I took a couple closeups.

This is from straight above…










From an angle….










I'm going to work on this on my next test. I am very happy with my progress!! If I had to move on right now I'd be happy repeating the last process. However I still have some bare wood left. I must test!!!


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## Porosky (Mar 10, 2009)

yeah. sorry…I just slapped the dye on without much thought… and polyed it…lol ... oh and always apply yellow last…. Black / red / yellow ... dark to light… (i have not read all the posts)... I'm sure you are way beyond that…looks good…studying it up close is not realalistic…. most people will view your work from a distance…like two feet… no one is going to get 6" from it and say "oh, thats messed up"...Also curly Maple is about the most un uniformed wood you could work with…with differnt hardness and softness in each hill and valley through out the piece…


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## EB331 (May 6, 2011)

Hi Scott,

Thank you!!

It's funny you mention the distance thing. The wife was heading out the other day. She opened the garage to get our sons stroller. I normally close the garage once she's on her way. I happened to turn back as I was walking into the house and saw this…..










I was floored at how nice it looked. So I took a pic from a distance.

I am very happy with the way this is turning out. I'm almost ready to move forward on the project. I will continue to post my progress.

Cheers,
Ed


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## Iguana (Jun 22, 2011)

Ed,

How is this project going? Nothing posted in nearly two weeks, just wondering if you've succeeded or given up - hopefully the former!


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## EB331 (May 6, 2011)

Good Morning!

Thanks for checking in!

I, thankfully, have gotten a good grasp on the process. I'm extremely happy with the test results above, but….I feel I could do a little better. I felt there were "muddy" spots. Since I have the wood I figured I must try again even if I am splitting hairs.

Here is the next test, better in my opinion. I have one more test going now. This last one seems to be the best yet! I'm getting a good feel for blending colors and applying them to their potential.

What I've noticed is having the black explode on this just isn't going to happen. The curl is too tight. It seems that Trifern's projects are immersed in the curl. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. I feel that my pieces just won't do what his do given the same technique.

On this one I decided to tone the black back a bit with a light brown. Then I sanded more aggressively than any of the previous.





































The thing that holding me back is this test piece is the flip side of a piece I need for the project.

I'm been really busy with the family lately. I haven't done much at all.

I'll post my results step by step when I get finished. Soon I hope!

Thanks for the support!!! This place is great!!
Ed


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## Camper (Jul 31, 2010)

Hi Ed, just another word of support from me. I am keeping an eye on the progress and hoping once you are satisfied you can provide us with a step-by-step and dos and donts of this. Looking at your results, it seems like you have figured out how to prevent the initial coats from bleeding into the later coats. Whats the secret?

Thanks for sharing.


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## EB331 (May 6, 2011)

Thanks Camper!!

Absolutely. I will detail the end process and highlight the mistakes I made along the way.

In these new tests I am only sanding the after the initial black application. What I've learned is the darker the base color the more you need to sand. I've gone back many times to see what the wood looked like after I sanded the initial black. Sure enough those spots that popped later, were there the whole time. So sanding things really aggressively was huge for me. Even when sanding all the way back the dye will stay in the deep curl and that's all you want. As for the dyes, less is more. A little bit goes a long way. You can always add more. The applicator is another key. The sponges I used initially were waaaay to much. I might as well have used a turkey baster. LOL. I'm sure a more skilled craftsman can use sponges just fine. With all the learning curves I dropped on myself I will take the easiest path and not look back.

This is my latest and totally setting up to be my last test. Given what I can expect from the black and deeming it unnecessary to go with jet black, for my purposes. I went with an even lighter base color. I used yellow for then went over that with a very light coating of light brown….










Since this base is so much lighter I felt I may no need to sand as much. Also my hopes are to build a good yellow base in certain areas. I want to sand a tiny bit back after the poly to make the yellow pop more. We'll see. 










This is where I'm at right now. Just snapped this pic 10 minutes ago. I think this is hands down the best outcome yet. This is after the 1st coat of poly. I can't wait to see it after I start building coats.










I will detail this in it's entirety when I'm finished. I have the means to do side by picture comparisons too. I'll try to do that.

Have a great day all!!
Ed


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## EB331 (May 6, 2011)

Thank you Autumn!!! I appreciate the kind words!

It was well worth the journey. It's not over yet, but I confident enough to "go live" so to speak. I don't know about the "chemist" part, but I sure felt I was going "mad". LOL.

I've since done come light sanding, trying to accentuate the yellow. And have added more poly.

This is the latest pic…..










I have done a tiny bit more sanding and added more poly since, but don't have pics at the moment. How it sits now is perfect in my opinion. Adding more poly is all it needs.

The next update will be of the finished project. Then of course I'll come back and detail everything.

Have a great day!!
Ed


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## newTim (Jul 11, 2008)

Beautiful


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## EB331 (May 6, 2011)

Thank you Tim!!

The project is in it's final stages. I have a few or possible several more coats of poly to go. I will post my results and update the thread as soon as I'm finished. It should be soon.

Have a great weekend everyone!!

Ed


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## EB331 (May 6, 2011)

Ladie's and Gent's the suspense is over…...





































The journey was more than worth it!!! Even though this project presented many challenges for me I cannot be happier with the experience. I will detail things later tonight. I've become very busy here at work and haven't gotten the chance.

I plan on getting better pics in natural lighting. Technically it's incomplete. As you can see the back is open. I made a few mistakes during my router learning curve that cost me a couple of inches. Instead of a closed back I am going to use a grate/mesh style. I also mistakenly assumed I had the correct screws to fasten the front panel. Not the case, doh! I just pinned it up here for photos.

I have to say this project was amazingly enjoyable. I can't wait to start another.

I'd like to thank EVERYONE who commented, followed and offered their advice and suggestions! It truly meant a lot to me. I hope someday I can repay the favor.

I plan on starting a new project soon. I'm so glad I found this site. Lots a great people with incredible talent. A true inspiration.

Thank you!!

Ed


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## GaryC (Dec 31, 2008)

ED, you have every right to be proud of your work. Looks great!


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

What a perfect project in which to display all your hard work! Love it! I bet my vintage Les Paul would sound great out of that thing!

Thanks for working the techniques and posting the results. I now feel that once I get ready to do some more of the artsy projects, i'll now have the knowledge by virtue of your journey.

Thanks, Ed…and very well done!


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## Camper (Jul 31, 2010)

very nice piece and many thanks for sharing!!


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## EB331 (May 6, 2011)

Thank you very much!!! I appreciate it!


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## EB331 (May 6, 2011)

Ok now the details…..

Materials List:

Plastic keg cups (or other plastic containers to mix and store dye)
Paper Plates (Optional, I used them to rest dye pads)
Cotton Balls
Rubber Gloves
Low Lint/Lint Free Cotton Rags (I used "Premium" Rags from Sherwin Williams)
Low Lint/Lint Free Paper Towels (for cleanup, if necessary)
Pad Sander
Sanding Block (may or may not use it, but good to have)
Sandpaper (all grits up to 220 for prep. 320 for finish) 
Steel Wool (0000)
Aniline Dyes ( I used Red, Yellow and Brown. I made the brown from leftover red, yellow and black. You may want to just mix up a butterscotch or light brown color. These are water soluble powder dyes from LMI.)
Minwax Wipe-On Polyurethane (Oil based)

I mixed all dyes (in keg cups) to the same ratio. 4 grams powder and 4oz hot distilled water.










I made dye pads by cutting rags into a 4" square and wrapped it around 3 cotton balls. I made these as I needed them and tossed them. I went through a ton due to the poly. Unfortunately I did not keep count.

I initially mixed a batch of dye to a lesser concentration. After mixing a new batch I then used these to create a brown color. I recommend just mixing a batch of brown instead of black. The lighter the better.

Round 1:

Make 2 dye pads, 1 for water, 1 for dye(s). Wet the wood with distilled water. Nice and wet. This will raise the grain and may cause your rags to leave behind some lint while applying the dye. You'll need to remove it once your layer is applied.

I applied yellow dye to the entire piece. Then I went over it very lightly with brown to create a 
butterscotch color. Remove lint and allow 20-30 minutes to dry enough to sand.



















Round 2:

Sand back very aggressively using 150 grit (2 grits back from prep). I used the pad sander here. Be careful if you have rounded edges. It doesn't take much to gouge them.



















My target here was to remove EVERYTHING. The only color that will remain will be in the deep flame. I went so aggressively because my previous tests turned out pretty muddy in the non-flame areas that I didn't sand all the way back. The one thing I did notice was that with the yellow/brown you could leave a little and not get muddy. It's your call. TEST!

Vacuum and tack cloth.

Make a couple of dye pads for 2 more colors. Red and yellow.

I applied yellow in streaks and patches, not the whole surface. Then I applied red over everything, but not so aggressively in the yellow areas. My goal was to create a fiery look so you want red orange and yellow peeking through in certain areas.

This is where the tests pieces really came in handy. You can get a feel for how much dye to use and how well you can spread it around. It blends very easily eliminating color lines. I went back and forth with red and yellow to get the blend I was looking for. The beauty about this stage is that if you overdue it you can sand back and nothing is lost, aside from time. However it is a good idea to go light and re-apply rather than saturate it and go back.

The look of the piece now is going to be very close to the look of it later. Some dye will come off on the first couple of coats of poly. If it looks thick wait and see if it thins out after a little poly.

Let dry overnight (24 hours)



















Round 3:

Pour some poly in a cup and make another dye pad.

Apply poly. You'll see that the wood is going to soak up the poly pretty quickly. I just kept applying to get a good coat. This is where you'll see the areas you'll like to "touch up". Allow poly to dry and address those areas.

I then touched up some muddy areas and went after the areas I applied yellow earlier. I very lightly sanded by hand (without a block) with 320 grit. It doesn't take much to go from muddy to crisp. I found that with the block I went too hard so I went by hand. Also, as mentioned, I go over the yellow areas more than anything during this stage. It allows the yellow pop through. If I didn't do this the yellow would be lost.



















It's another area where if you mess up and sand back to the bare wood, don't worry. You can go back and apply yellow, blending it with the surrounding red. A couple of mistakes here turned into gems for me. It added a few small spots of yellow that I initially didn't plan for. It was a nice surprise and really looks great.

Take your time sanding here. A little goes a long way. As you sand use the tack cloth and take a look. You'll get there faster than you may think. You'll also notice that you can do quite a bit of blending while sanding.

Apply another coat of poly and another and another and another. All in all I applied 13 coats of poly. Every 2 or 3 coats I used steel wool and tack cloth.























































I think I would try another method of finishing next time. While this turned out great it is not perfect. My area in the garage was not ideal. I got lots of dust and fibers on the finish. Nothing too crazy, but certainly not glass like smooth. I know this was my fault not the poly's. I just feel I could have gotten the same results or better with less coats using something else. Who knows though. This is a newb talking. LOL.

Well folks that is it. After all the tests and puzzles it worked out. I hope this project inspires others as much as I've been inspired.

Please feel free to ask questions. I'll help in any way I can. Also please fell free to critique. Even though this one is finished it doesn't mean I cannot learn something for the next one.

Thanks!!

Ed


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## SASmith (Mar 22, 2010)

Thanks for taking the time to document this.
That is one great dye job.


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## EB331 (May 6, 2011)

Sure thing SASmith! Thank you!!


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## EB331 (May 6, 2011)

Cosmicsniper, this was made for Les Pauls!! Although mine aren't vintage it's great to see a fellow LP'er. Cheers!


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Ed:
I have not commented or made any suggestions on this thread because I hardly know anything about finishing.
Your trials, tests and triumphs have made excellent reading for people like me, and I thank you for sharing this information, it is duly noted and "filed". Your project looks wonderful.
Thanks so much.


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## EB331 (May 6, 2011)

Thank you Rex! That's great to hear.


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## EB331 (May 6, 2011)

I started this thread here once I've gotten to the dye stage. Which was well into the project. I thought I'd share a link to a forum where I documented everything from the beginning.

The only reason I would link it is because there are some great tips and ideas from members that may help others that were in my shoes. I have no affiliation to the site. Most importantly you can visit my thread without registering or committing anything aside from time.

http://www.mylespaul.com/forums/squawk-box/141651-phaez-fire-my-1st-head-cab-build.html

Have a great day folks!!!

Ed


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## EB331 (May 6, 2011)

I almost forgot to site this video as a huge help for me as well…...

http://www.finewoodworking.com/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesArticle.aspx?id=30182

Man, this guy made it look so easy. LOL.

James Condino, if you happen to stumble upon this thread…..THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

I enjoyed reading your parallel thread at the Les Paul site, Ed. But, yeah, like they said there, I do want to see the matching speaker cab…sooner rather then later!


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## EB331 (May 6, 2011)

Thanks Jay!! We'll have to convince my wife on that one. Next project….fireplace surround…boooo. LOL.


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

Okay, then let's compromise. Make sure the fireplace surround matches the head and future speaker cab! Come on, you know you want to do it! Doesn't a flaming maple finish kinda make sense for a fireplace? I'm almost certain you could sell your wife on that one!!!


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## EB331 (May 6, 2011)

Haha. The surround is going to be easy. Just painting it white. No dyes or poly. . The speaker cab is on the back burner because I have 2×12 to play this head through. Most importantly I have a chassis that needs a home. Next "fun" project….1×10 combo. Not fancy though. More or less a beater. I might go with nice wood, but no fancy finish.

The matching speaker cab will be here before I know it. I'll be sure to share the love.


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