# How many LJ's truely make a living working with wood.



## Resurrected (Jan 11, 2011)

How many of you

Woodworking is the only income. No retirement, social security or other full time job. Wood working is it.

How many of you also make that same living off just making cabinets, fine furniture, or misc. Not to be confused with a carpenter they build entire house remodels and additions. Entirely different to me and I'm not interested in this.

I'm thinking of spending the ching ching for a store outright (no lease), then actually selling what I make (Possibly sell others stuff too). I wonder how feasible this concept is.


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## GMman (Apr 11, 2008)

For me 0 income from woodworking.
All the woodworking I have made was for family only at no charge.


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## Resurrected (Jan 11, 2011)

Hey G!

So your a hobbiest then.

I got a itch. Hoping to scratch it.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

I did it. It mostly takes an appetite for hard, dirty physical work and 
extremely modest lifestyle goals to make it work. If you're clever,
as many woodworkers are, there are about 1000 more lucrative 
careers.


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## Brian024 (Feb 2, 2009)

It varies from month to month but it's usually around 25% to 40% of my income comes from woodworking. I do have a part time job at the Orange Box which pays my personal bills and all that. Usually what I make from my woodworking goes back into business, I don't need to buy any new tools so right now its just trying to get some money saved up, for emergencies, supplies. My goal for making a living off my work is about 5 years after I started the business, we'll see how that goes.


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## therookie (Aug 29, 2010)

I am starting into the woodworking as income but I am only 16 so I cant exactley make an income. but you are probably heading in the right direction buying a shop and selling what you make.


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## superdav721 (Aug 16, 2010)

One thought. I will retire at my state job. I am honing my skills now. I want the ability to build what I want when I want and at the pace I want. I have a fear if I have to make a living at it I will get caught up in the one or two things that produce money. Then it will turn into something I don't want. My wife says I am my own worst critic. I see every flaw. 
But if a store like yours existed in my area I wold consider commission or consignment with a fellow woodworker.


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## Resurrected (Jan 11, 2011)

I'm not quiting my paid 40 work week. But I believe (I know) I can keep a store stocked with Handmade goods. If not I would reach out to people in my area for consignment


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## Rick Dennington (Aug 27, 2009)

Being retired from the military, my income is set. If I never built a toohpick to sell, it's still there…..for how long is anybody's guess…???? But I do build for a few customers so that's just extra $$ I use to replinish my stock for the next one to build for…..or to build things for my shop or wife…..I charge my kids money…lol.


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## ohiogary (Feb 22, 2011)

I had full intentions of making a living wood working, but with the economy ….I dont think I can do it. I do build custom cabinets, but unfortunaly its hard to compete against places like lowes…. I will be the first to say the quality in high production cabinets isnt there. But alot of customers try to compare there prices with mine. I use full 3/4 birch plywood for the cabinets, solid hardwood face, medium priced hardware. And I have to do it all, where production shops have a guys making 7.00 and hour doing the same thing over and over, a group works on raised panels, one group works on cutting out panels, one group assem. on and on. Then the second thing is high production tools. Its hard to keep up with a cnc machine, that is being fed sheet after sheet. Although it may work where you are located, if you have the right clients. Just and opinion…not saying its true, but just the way I feel….


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## Resurrected (Jan 11, 2011)

I see you OH_IO . I'm a buck too. I'm not just going with the cabinet thing only. Just a little of everything.

Rick man you charge your KIDS. How much you charging me for the fish dinner? (Thanks for serving) 10 yr VET here.


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## Rick Dennington (Aug 27, 2009)

Heck yea I charge my kids….they bummed off of me their whole lives till I kicked them out on their own..lol.
They tell me that's the best thing I ever did was to let them go on their own….Only thing I told them:
"Don't let the door hit you in the a.s on your way out"..... They ain't been back yet, only to visit….lol.
Thanks for serving, too…..And the fish dinner is FREE, if you come and get it…..


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## lickcreekfurniture (Feb 22, 2011)

resurrected - it depends on the clients you have in your location!! by that i mean how tight they hold there wallet !!! you will have to make the point that it is solid wood , hand made , and point out the craftsmen ship i am gettin in to morris chairs and it is hard to compete with j c pennies 300 dollar chair but some people know they get what they pay for !! hope you can make it happen!!! good luck


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## Resurrected (Jan 11, 2011)

Over head of the building won't be there if I pay for it outright. It might be slow at first I know.

RICK you might have a guest this summer. I don't need direction I will just smell the air and find supper.

Just might have to go fishing to get dinner though.

What rank RICK 1SG , SMG?


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## LepelstatCrafts (Jan 16, 2011)

I actually sell my items to make money for my shop. I sell to pay for tools and other things. Now that I have either paid off the tools or purchased all the main tools it is a good way to pay for personal projects. If your interested, here is my web shop: http://lepelstatcrafts.etsy.com


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## Rick Dennington (Aug 27, 2009)

Well…if I'm not off fishing tournaments, I'm usually around here somewhere…probably the shop…
No…. I was only a lowly PFC, fixing to make Corporal, when I got hurt…..never got the boot to the next rank…..All my records were lost for months. Nine months later they caught up with me in Japan. Too late by then.

How about you? What was your rank?


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## CanadianWoodWorks (Dec 29, 2009)

I am currently making my entire income from wood working, been just over a year since diving right in! Although I chose to move back home, and have my shop here also. I woodwork about 10 hours a day, seeing most people I know when they come to see me, which is everyday…. How do I get stuff done? lol

We take care of every thing involved in selling custom furniture, design, website, e-mail, stores, shows, contests, building, showing….. so many things to do!

I keep all my expenses very low and don't eat out, eating out costs so much I swear!

Hopefully if things keep going as they are I will be able to move my shop to a large place but of course the expenses go up also.


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## cabmaker (Sep 16, 2010)

I do it, (year # 40). The first 39 was a rough and tumble deal. The only reason I made it is because I didnt know I coudnt. I could say that for the past 15 yrs. I typically was booked for a year in advance. Things slowed a lot last year but Im still loaded up till april. Gotta question, what will you be selling in the store and would you buy it ?


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## Resurrected (Jan 11, 2011)

Very Nice *Mike* Did you do your web page?

I'm starting to believe that most of the profesionals here on LJ's are carpenters mostly and then fine wood workers second by the lack of responses. I'll give it 24 hours. This shows more of a reality check.


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## beckerswoodworks (Dec 26, 2009)

I'm not making anything off it. I am trying though but it's a good thing I have a day job. Many years ago I used to make a living off of it but it was barely getting by so I went back to school and got a real job that actuall pays well and is reasonably stable.


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## auggy53 (Jan 23, 2011)

ive allways felt than if i cant make more than i could working for someone else , whats the point ? taxes , health ins. ,no unemployment ins. for self imployed. s.s. taxes doubles , not counting the cost of doing business . no vacations or weekends off . just something to think about.


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## Resurrected (Jan 11, 2011)

Very good question *Cabmaker* I guess that will come from trial and error. as I said the overhead of the building will not be there. (Got to show my appreciation to loving parents for that)

RICK Just call me SGT L private lol

Good night all look forward to reading your replys and feed back.

Auggy53 This is a side business for me. I won't give my 40 hour work week up and benifits.

I'll need to pay someone to manage the shop a few hours out of the day until I'm off.

I really think its feasible. but how much am I talking, what will I likely make is all. I make money off it where I am at presently. (sometimes frustrated though) Should I change?


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## rhett (May 11, 2008)

I work fulltime. Roughly 80% of income is cabinets the other is furniture commissions and small widgets. My shop is on my property so I have little overhead. My ace in the hole is I have no debt. I make very modest wages for very elaborate work hours. Its what I know so its what I do.

You have a very large set if you are planning on setting up a store front in the present economy. Especially if you are dropping a large initial amount on a building. Just because you have a store doesn't mean you made it. I have never seen such penny picking as there is presently and I see no change in the future.

Not being an a$$, being honest.


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## ohiogary (Feb 22, 2011)

A lot of truth in all the posts above, myself I have no overhead either. I think location has quite influence on your success. I live in the Ohio Valley, the economy here is controlled by the steel mills in the valley, if there shut down or running at slow pace the people do not have the money to spend, which affects the general economy. My occupation is a union carpenter, Ive been layed off now for 6 months, thats the longest in 26 years. When I am working I cannot compete with my earnings working from my home shop. Such as wage, health insurance, pension. If you are married and your spouse works and has a excellent insurance plan that helps. Health insurance alone runs around 900.00 a month for us. Make sure you look at all the little things before committing yourself.


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## huff (May 28, 2009)

25 Years and still standing. I do only custom work, about 75% cabinetry (case goods), and the balance in furniture. That percentage may be a little off since I consider most of my desk, home offices and entertainment centers cabinetry, not furniture. Over the years I've seen a few woodworkers open their own store, but I would think that would be extremely hard to make much money at. The expense of operating a store ( even if you own it outright) would be extremely expensive. The liscences, insurance, electric,water, signs, advertising and the cost of having someone operate it would all have to come out of you "making" and "selling" enough to cover your overhead. That is above and beyond the overhead of operating your woodworking. You would have to produce and sell a lot of furniture to make it work. Once you open a furniture store, you are now in direct compitition with all the furniture stores, Ikea, Rooms to Go, Ashley, Sears, Wal-Mart, so on and so on. Not trying to be negative, just food for thought. Take your time, do a lot of research, lay out a complete business plan. Make sure you know your market and your potential customer base. Look at the most successful furniture stores in your area and see why they are successful. You may offer hand crafted furniture, but most consumers going to a retail store wouldn't know the difference. The average consumer is more interested in the price and their monthly payment. 
I've made a modest living doing what I love, but it's a lot of long, hard hours. Good luck and wish you the best of success.


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## LepelstatCrafts (Jan 16, 2011)

Resurrected,

Actually, Etsy.com is a sorta mecca for crafters and a hubby to sell items. They provide the space and you just upload your items. It is then up to you to advertise and draw traffic in to your digital shop. It can make you money if you do it correctly, but don't expect to sell products at real world prices unless you already have a repeat buying clientèle. Posting an item is only $0.20. Give it a shot for 6 months. It takes about 3 months on average to make your first sale. If you have questions, just ask


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## cranesgonewild (Jun 9, 2010)

Mike makes a good point about Etsy.

I wish I could make money at woodworking. As a certified crane operator with an inter-provincial red seal, there is no way I could make nearly as much money doing woodworking.

I think the only way I could make real money, would be cabinet making. 
Good luck.


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## Puzzleman (May 4, 2010)

I make my living 100% from my woodworking. to see what I do, check out the website at www.hollowwoodworks.com.

over the last 8+ years, I have learned that my main job is not woodworking. I can teach people to do the work with the quality and speed necessary to create a great product. My main job is sales. If you don't have sales coming in, you don't have anything to make.

In my opinion, being a great woodworker is fine but not necessary to make a successful business. what is necessary is to have a product that people will want, finding the people who want and can afford the product, selling to those people and finding more people like them.

Runinng a woodworking business is like running any other business. Just with wood instead of widgets.


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## Timberwerks (Sep 29, 2009)

I've been making a living as a furniture maker for many years and look forward to doing so for many more.


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## dbhost (Jul 20, 2009)

For now hobbyist, hoping to get good enough to maybe at least make some supplemental income selling things at craft shows and online…


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## Petewood (May 14, 2010)

It's been my only source of income for the past 25 years.
The other pros who responded to this post made some important points; without which, I think a prospective business would be doomed. Examples:

From Canadian Woodworks: "We take care of every thing involved in selling custom furniture, design, website, e-mail, stores, shows, contests, building, showing….. so many things to do! I keep all my expenses very low…"

From Puzzleman: "over the last 8+ years, I have learned that my main job is not woodworking. I can teach people to do the work with the quality and speed necessary to create a great product. My main job is sales. If you don't have sales coming in, you don't have anything to make. In my opinion, being a great woodworker is fine but not necessary to make a successful business. what is necessary is to have a product that people will want, finding the people who want and can afford the product, selling to those people and finding more people like them. Running a woodworking business is like running any other business."

Personally, I printed out 1,000 mailers yesterday. That was a 9.5 hour day. I think a lot of people get started in the business side of this because they love to work with wood, and because they have at least an intuitive sense that their skills are relatively rare. Put those two things together (along with the need to pay the bills) and the desire to do it full-time may be born. BUT…...
It takes a confluence of skills, business saavy, dogged determination, and a desire to woodwork for a living which is stronger than the desire to stay out of the office, in order to give the business the chance to succeed.


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## Resurrected (Jan 11, 2011)

Blue Mountain Woods

Simply put. Inspirational.

Yes the building no over head, All other bills not much of a concern. Have the spare ching ching. It will not only be a wood store but a over all hobby store.

As some one said I am starting to put my business plan together. I have a lot of planning to do. Along with a web site.

This will not be my only income, I'm in R&D automotive this is my main trade.


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## fge (Sep 8, 2008)

We founded Top Quality Cabinets and it is our only source of income and we are doing very well. We do nothing but custom cabinetry. I am finding though that my job as "great highly skillful woodwork" has changed drastically. I am now a salesman, project planner, kitchen and wall unit designer, trainer, manager, getting to become a better accountant, and I am many other things as a business man. Seldom do I find that I am playing the role of "highly skilled woodworker". It certainly is a challenge but I absolutely love it. I feel a lot like a hunter/manager. I would also add that a lot relies on location. We have a great market for custom cabinetry and it works for us.


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## WRH (Sep 22, 2009)

The problem isn't making projects, that's the fun part. The plroblem is how do you market what you make and sell them? 
I am looking at retiring at some point. I will still need some income. Are there any programs out there that help people with marketing what they make?


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## Puzzleman (May 4, 2010)

WRH, Marketing is not an easy job. Doing marketing has many variables. You will have lots of people tell you about Craigslist, Etsy, craft shows, art shows, your own website, SEO, PPC, etc. These are good ways to reach people but what you have to determine is what people you want to reach. What is the socio-ecnomic group of your potential customers? Where do these people live? Where do they frequent? How can you reach these people?

This is why marketing for one is not for the other. You have to find your niche. If this sounds like a lot of work, it is. As stated above, marketing is just as or more important than the wood working.

Even if you want to sell wholesale, you need marketing as above to reach those people.

I am not trying to discourage anyone. Just putting out what is involved.


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## StumpyNubs (Sep 25, 2010)

My blog deals specifically with this subject… Have a look. http://lumberjocks.com/StumpyNubs/blog/21553


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## nate22 (Jul 12, 2010)

yea I do only woodworking for a living. I do make money at it and like a couple of others said it takes a lot of work to do it. And what you make is all depends on how you price you furniture and if you really want to sell it for a living. What I mean is if you are like someother guys and do it just for a hobby then you won't make a lot but if you want to make a living you can and where you live has a effect on sales to. But if your determined enough to do it all it takes is hard work and manage your money right you can do it.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

I'm about negative 5%. Maybe a tad bit more than a hobbyist once when I incorporated & made a go at selling duck calls & humidors. I bungled my taxes, failed to collect sales tax, & almost got myself in hot water. Luckily, I was able to pay my way out of it. As a physician, I also need my hands & once disability insurers caught wind of my "business", I had trouble keeping my insurance. I was more scared of the IRS than my non-Saw-Stop-equipped saw. I certainly have a lot of respect and admiration for those who have taken the plunge.


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## woodspark (May 8, 2010)

I'll add the international twist! Full time, 10hrs a day (sometimes more!) only source of income. Custom cabinets and furniture, art furniture, sculpture and widgets plus whatever comes my way! No carpentry though. Been at it for many years.
The plus factors(or maybe the ones that make it possible!): 
1. No debt!
2. Large workshop on my property (my daily commute is a 60 yard stroll through a wildflower meadow
3. No employees. 
4. Minimal overheads. Whatever it takes to keep it as low and simple as possible.
5. I live a modest, low stress life, by choice. The wood is my passion.

I do not try to compete with the production furniture stores. I exhibit in art galleries (furniture too), I work with some interior designers for commission work. A lot of my work comes by word of mouth.I sell through a high end craft gallery, mostly to tourists. To put it simply, I only work for the rich!


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## StumpyNubs (Sep 25, 2010)

I believe it is easiest to make a living at woodworking if you go into it for the right reasons. If you aspire to achieve what Div mentiones above, you have a MUCH larger chance at success than if you are trying to get rich. If you can be content with a modest living that pays the bills, gives you time with your family and is achieved doing what you love- it is possible with woodworking.


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## shangrila (Apr 5, 2007)

Res-I do this full time just the wife and I. It has been about 10 years now it has been a hard road but I enjoy what I do, and to me that makes it worth it.I was rolling along real well untill the economy thing hit so the past 2 years have been harder than usuall.I made a stand to do only high end work- I could probably make more $$ if I was willing to do cabinets,shelves,stepstools,etc.


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## EPJartisan (Nov 4, 2009)

When I first met my partner, I told him right out that if he wanted to be wealthy I was not the guy he should date. I can't say I earn a living, but I can't say I do not. Just not a yes / no answer for me. My studio earns any where from 10 - 20k a year, but it is not all wood work. I also earn through sculpture, illustration, and stained glass …. repair work, odd jobs, and teaching. I'd say about 2/3 of my income is from actual woodwork. Alas I would be earning much much more if I didn't have a fear of being without health insurance again. Thus I work a second job. YES Studio is #1 … #2 is Business manager of my partner's computer consulting business. Through a business plan, we get a discount on health insurance. As it is now… everything else in my life is paid for.. and we live well within our means .. we only stress out to pay for health insurance. If I moved to Canada I'd have it made. I already work all the time everyday, but I draw the line at 9:00 pm. Sometimes I don't know what day it is because I work weekends all the time. I spend about 30-40 hours a week in my studio and 20-40 hours doing computer stuff. A close and very successful woodworker friend of mine works 80-100 hours a week in his shop of 4 guys and he must travel to showrooms. I do not envy him, he has absolutely no life. BUT then I really enjoy the way my life is right now and that pays for more than any dollar amount. I've always wanted to create a co-op with a store front, but I am NOT a businessman.. only an artisan. Like Div and Scott above… I had to choose to do high-end work for wealthy patrons… and trinkets for fun. Good luck on your store idea and I will always have stuff to send you to sell.


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## Resurrected (Jan 11, 2011)

Everyone thanks for the input as my wife and I put this together I will be referring back to this.


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## Salt (Jan 13, 2011)

I think it was Mark Twain that said: You can't depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus. If you're gonna attempt to make any area of woodworking your sole source of income you better send your imagination into training…maybe decathalon. This is a way of life, a love of life, a challange of living. You don't have to give up your passport to humanity when you work with wood but you ARE required to focus more keenly on details…like an absent minded professer forgets to eat lunch, you might forget to smell some roses but don't worry, if you're in this line of work for real (trade/profession/hobby/whatever) roses will slam into your face with the force of a bag of cement every day. You will be close to reality (or lose limbs), you will be close to happiness (or lose interest), you will be close to poverty (or lose a whole bunch of laziness)...could go on and on…but focus your imagination and just think of what you will gain. You will be in the moment more often then most, and it will probably change you (growth is change) into a better, perhaps more happy human. It isn't for the weak of intention. Consider this squirrily aspect: the work will probably somewhere you aren't, and you might not want to live where the work is. Reality comes into play: when I decided to be an actor I looked at the overwhelming odds of making a living at it…and moved to where the competition was the feircest: Los Angeles, CA. Think about it, they weren't hiring a lot of actors in my home town of Muskegon, MI. L.A. was the place where they PAID actors. I went to L.A. I got paid. After 10 years of being paid extremely well as an actor, when I decided I'd like to work with wood I faced the same decision: back home where the pace of living seemed more amenable, or stay in L.A. where the potential customer base was virtually limitless. Sure the competition was really fierce, but dammit at 30 years old so was I. Jump in, both feet, give it hell, work your butt off…build what THEY want…and THEY will come. Make great widgets, you'll get great widget customers. Build great wood products and you will get great wood product customers.


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## EPJartisan (Nov 4, 2009)

Stephen. I agree with what your saying, I often forget to eat lunch.. or brush my teeth, or call home when I get involved in a project till 11 pm. And you are right most of us work wood because it is all "in the moment" and we have to pay attention to that moment… or cut our fingers off.

Yet, I have to disagree with one thing, in my own view. My back ground is industrial design and the first thing we learned is … people don't know what they want, so we have to show them what they want. That's why people like to shop, to see what is new, see what don't they have. If you succumb to the market, when the market ends, so does your work. Keep your mind on the new idea, the beautiful concept, and the unusual product and eyes will always follow you… thus you always have work. it's difficult, but the most rewarding and one of the nuanced differences between functional art and product design. Something my partner is only recently understanding.. good art and good design is noticed by everyone, no matter how aesthetically ignorant they are.


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## Salt (Jan 13, 2011)

Eric, 
You said above "My back ground is industrial design and the first thing we learned is … people don't know what they want, so we have to show them what they want."

You bring up a very pertinent point: 'they' taught you what they thought you should think about what your potential customers want. Unless you are billing yourself as 'artist/woodworker' and have credentials to back that up, you might very well come off as overly arrogant in the marketplace. I found, while fighting in the trenches of the Woodworking World War that IF you want to survive in a sophisticated environment, working with top designers and decorators, you had damn well better listen to those people…they are professionals, very sure of what they want, what they want it to look like and function like for their clientel. What they want you do do is make it happen. I've never met a pro who wouldn't listen carefully to any technical advice or even advice involving asthetics that I've offered (they're always learning too!) but the conception is theirs. The look is theirs (that's why their customers chose them) and you are the vehicle that gives it form. Of course, I'm speaking here of woodworkers and furniture makers who are 'job shops'. The first five years of my wood business were precisely that, I wasn't knowledgeable enough of the market, nor did I have the reputation or tried and true customer base that alowed me to foist my predlictions on an unsuspecting public. THAT was 'training' time, I was honing skills: woodworking, business (adult night school at Fairfax High LOL), personal presentation, etc. I needed that time. I always recommend that others (newbies, like I was) take that time or at least as much as they need…before flexing talented woodworking business and design muscles. There are other strata, such as Studio Furniture (ala Sam Maloof), art furniture, Lathe Art, Furniture Restoration that need different customer approaches that we must adjust to if we swim in those ponds. I've been to those and more, like hospitality (building for hotels/restaurants/institutions and such). Some require a dog-paddle, some a crawl, some a butterfly stroke or whatever works. Eric, I understand (correct me if I'm wrong) that you are not, strictly speaking, a 'woodworker' (making a living at it or not) but rather a 'designer/artist/woodworker' that works with wood (and other materials). And you do it very, very well from what I've seen. You seem like a pro, the kind of person that woodworkers would enjoy working with.

Any others here that have found these things to be so? After all, just my take, your result may vary, and I'm really interested in answers to Resurrecteds poser.


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## Puzzleman (May 4, 2010)

Stephen, I agree. I work in the craft industry with my woodworking. I have ideas that I think are wonderful until I take them to the public. I also encourage people to ask for things. In fact if it works out, I give them half of the first one (being a guinea pig and all).

So for me it is a combination of coming up with ideas and listening to the customer. Most of the time it comes a collaboration between the two of us. They have the concept / idea. I have the knowledge to how will it work / be built / cost.

I agree that both parties need to be involved to make it a great product.


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## woodspark (May 8, 2010)

Stephen Mines: I do the dog paddle, the backstroke, the crawl and sometimes I just tread water! I'm both with you and Eric in that I cover both bases: I give some what they want and for other I show them what they want.

I do much commission work for interior designers/decorators. They get what they want. I might make some suggestions and give some structural design input but ultimately they call the shots. Fine by me. I get to do quality work for a decent price.

Then I get commissions by private clients. Some know exactly what they want and, like you say, I am merely the vehicle to make it happen. Others need showing what they want. They have a vague idea but I get involved on a design and aesthetic level as well. I guess ultimately it is about understanding and adapting to the needs of a varied clientele base.

Finally I dabble with Art furniture, my first love. This is speculative work that I consign to art galleries. Is the art furniture about showing them what they want or is it about showing them WHAT I WANT!!! :^)

By the way I enjoy your writing!


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## Salt (Jan 13, 2011)

Div, You sound like you're swimming in the lane next to me; lots of us are in this more or less friendly race, right? Woodworkers who want and need to make a living doing that have so very many possible ways to go. If I hadn't apprenticed to a monster (very talented monster) that screamed and yelled and shook very sharp chisels in my face I might never have gone out on my own. About 6 months after opening my teeny tiny little shop we became good friends! Almost like co-conspiritors: us against them, them being the nice folks that ordered furntiture and such from us. Point being, my tranny could have been stuck in D (for drone) and I might have spent my life doing the same thing enlessly, over and over and. I am often chugging along in D anyway; if I make good money on a widget, I make better money on lots of widgets! I don't really consider drudge work as demeaning or difficult…it just becomes so easy that my brain switches into the IZ gear (for imaginative zoning) and my customers are paying me for having so much fun its almost criminal to take their money! As Eric said, YOWZA! Woodworking and life together are such a hoot, and it leaves room in the life to soar all over creation, don't have to miss a thing. 
PS, Thanks for the writing compliment. I'm not really writing though, I'm just thinking. . . and my fingers are dancing like hell to keep up with me! LOL


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## Petewood (May 14, 2010)

Call me dry, but I've never thought of myself as an artist. To begin with, I have no formal training there. To end with, I have no formal training there. Where I do have training (and where my love lies) is in mech. engineering and machinery. Where my pride lays is not so much in what I can create from my own mind (this is easy, but then who would buy it?), but how perfectly I can produce what's in yours. I believe that customers DO know what they want, but most lack the experience to picture all of a project's details until those details are discussed with them. I've found that most can then decide on the particulars. My great-grandfather was a coppersmith, my grandfather was supervising machinist for 32 years (Building 3, Brooklyn Navy Yard) and my Dad was a fine woodworking amateur his whole adult life. That said, about half of my business consists of running wood mouldings and doing spindle duplication.
Yah….und zeh machinery is in my German blood, yah?


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## Kentuk55 (Sep 21, 2010)

purely hobby and want to


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## EPJartisan (Nov 4, 2009)

@ Steven, "Unless you are billing yourself as 'artist/woodworker' and have credentials to back that up, you might very well come off as overly arrogant in the marketplace"

LOL.. love that. Yep I bill myself as such, 8 years of art school, ID and sculpture BFAs. Thinking of going back for my masters soon. Yes .. Interior designers often find me arrogant or at least annoying… so true true (just like one of my nieces calls me a preachy [email protected]) but they are rare, and I don't enjoy control freaks. I am too aloof and smart a$$ed having serious fun with life and career. I work the patron system not the marketplace, but that is just where my life took me. But you touch in one area I worry about… I kinda want fame before I die (not so worried about wealth) ... and yet all my work is tidied up in wealthy homes (a strange irony). No one knows I exist.. except my friends, my patrons, and my fellow LumberJocks. I am not looking to be rich, but maybe to be known before Antiques Roadshow 2040.

"I understand (correct me if I'm wrong) that you are not, strictly speaking, a 'woodworker' (making a living at it or not) but rather a 'designer/artist/woodworker' that works with wood (and other materials)."

Strictly speaking.. I am an Artisan (artist, designer, craftsman using the dexterity of my hands) but pure woodworker, who just happens to add other materials to the wood (and life) to make it more. It is my chosen primary medium. I see grain and figure as paint, I see every piece of wood as a tree I get to study from biology to chemical density … and then turn it into something more beautiful. I do not feel this connection with paint, glass or metal, though I enjoy what they give me in art. The hair on my left arm no longer grows back from testing the sharpness of my tools, I spend every evening pulling out slivers.. and I have dreams about scraper cards… and so.. I consider myself a "woodworker" all the way into my heart.

Thanks for the compliment … I am always excited about my studio and future work. I still see myself as needing refinement, so though I am a little more arrogant about my IQ .. I am very humble about my work.


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## Resurrected (Jan 11, 2011)

EP I respect your credentials but come on I don't need others approval to feel important. That sounds so naive.


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## wilterbeast (Feb 23, 2011)

in high school i had friend whos family farmed 300 acers. the dad was a union elecrtician and his mom was a school teacher. I asked the dad why he didn't farm full time and he told me " if you turn our hobby into your job you lose a hobby and gain work." I know several people that make or made their living from woodworking and you couldn't get one of them to talk about woodworking. they would always change the subject to hunting, football, their kids, or something else. After thinking about it for a bit i got to thinking I don't like to think about work either when i'm not there and i actually love my job. If/ when you decide to try and make a go of it i wish you all the best


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## Resurrected (Jan 11, 2011)

Witerbeast Whoa, that is so true (Thanks for reminding), but I am keeping this as extra not my regular 40 job.


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## longgone (May 5, 2009)

Some of us do our woodworking all day long and are still passionate about it, love to talk about what we do and look forward to every creative moment. I have never been anyones employee a single day in my life other than a summer job while in high school back in the 1960's. At 63 I still get as excited as a kid in a candy store when I go to the lumberyard or toolstore and I could not imagine it any other way.
We all create our own destiny and no one else controls our life unless you allow them to do so.


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## Resurrected (Jan 11, 2011)

Dude I am way to jealous. PLEASE SHUT UP

I MEAN THIS IN A GOOD WAY. One Of these days the good lord will give me your gift.

Whoops breaking LJ policy. Religion Sorry.


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## EPJartisan (Nov 4, 2009)

Sorry Res, I was not clear. I am only concerned with making beautiful things. I have everything i have always wanted .. a studio, work, patrons, love, security, passion, talent, friends, knowledge, peace, joy, and health … yet it would be nice to be in the history books … if I get good enough that is. In college, after years of art history, it just sits in my mind. It is not about finding approval in others. I was a dancer for 10 years and when I fell in love suddenly I realized that dancing was all about the attention, not the dancing. I have trophies, some time on TV… traveled and performed all over, but it did not match what was lacking in my life. Love for myself and another person. I don't have much respect for "credentials", but Stephen kinda asked (sorry I wrote "Steven" above) I'd rather have someone or have myself put the proof in the pudding. hmm.. I think after some other strings with you … I conclude you do not like me much. That's okay. I have no shame in seeming or being "naive" or ignorant, just means I am human and have more to learn. It is exciting to know this, I feel sad for the person who doesn't want to learn … and sadder for the person who thinks they don't need too. Peace.


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

I had a computer business for almost 15 years. It is no different than woodworking except the costs were different - electronics cost more and the value is lost overnight. I looked into opening a store and greatfully didn't.

Sales, sales, sales !!! Here is the test -

IF you can work at another job AND keep your customers happy for the next 2 years, you probably don't have enogh business to sustain life. Sales in everything has cycles, know every one of them for what you are doing. Making things as a hobby versus production are two completely different worlds. You cannot be so focused to turn down business because it is not the "kind" of work you want to do.

In running a store, department stores mark up their goods from 200 - 400%, this is what it takes to operate a brick and mortar store and cost to revenue ratios can be worse because you cannot average between 50 stores. If your costs are too high to mark up and sell, you are not efficient and cannot make enough volume. If you cannot develop the technique to be that efficient, you can't train someone to be either.

Buying a store outright, unless you hit the lottery, is not the normal way to go. It is a very poor strategy to manage the revenue stream. If someone gets hurt on the site and sues you, you will loose it anyway. If you rent, someone else is brought in. Rent comes off the the income and the financials-and-you give up valuable operating capital in the purchase. If you finance, most commercial loans are a lot less time to pay back 5-10 years versus a 30 year home mortgage and the taxe rightoff is 25 years. A shop where customers do not go has different liabilities and issues - this is not a store.

I am not saying don't do it - I am asking if you are preparing yourself to do it. From your question, you are asking the wrong question(s) to make the jump and be successful -- shutting down a business is a whole lot less than fun.

This is a seriously challenging time. --Now if you find yourself unemployed, the rent or mortgage due, the kids are getting hungry and the better half is tapping you on the shoulder, you do what you gotta do.

It has been 10 years since I shut down the company so my values may be off but the concept is the same.
Good luck in what you choose to do, which direction you take, plan it, then do it. Do not second guess yourself but always be open to change. The rules change daily, customers and the tax men make sure of it.


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## woodspark (May 8, 2010)

*Gregthewhodat* I'm with you! Making a living from woodwork is not a job. It is a passion, a lifestyle, a calling, something that gives meaning to your life. The book "Zen and the art of making a living" comes to mind. It should be compulsive reading/study in schools!

Woodworking is both my hobby and my job. After more than 20 years at it, I am still passionate about it; I still get excited about grain pattern and a "new" old tool. The day the passion dies is the day I give it up.


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## woodspark (May 8, 2010)

CessnaPilot, I know some turners in my area but not Bert. My friends might know him. Turners are a breed by themselves….I mean that in a good way!

Sorry Resurrected, don't mean to hijack your thread, just wanted to answer the question.


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## Resurrected (Jan 11, 2011)

Guys I invite open discussion on my threads

Isn't it about socializing with people of common interest.


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## Earlextech (Jan 13, 2011)

I have raised my daughters and somehow kept my wife happy for 25 years in the custom cabinet and furniture making business. The economy took care of that a couple of years ago though. Now I've joined the corporate world and I thank God I don't have to explain anymore why I can't beat Badcock's weekend special price on a $249 waterbed.


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## grosa (Aug 27, 2010)

I'v been making a living at it for 28 yrs. It is getting harder to sell jobs though.


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## Resurrected (Jan 11, 2011)

Hmm I'm finding a different route. I work around a few thousand engineers. Their heads are always turning and need things made. Prototype things. Crazy ideas. I just got another job today and I will post it in the forum for suggestions later. But I just got another one cause another engineer found out I can do this. Cool.


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## larryw (Feb 10, 2011)

I think the people who are making the real money in the wood working buisness are the vendors who sell us woodworkers tablesaws, jointers,planers,glues,hardware,exotic wood ect… ect… ect…


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## Resurrected (Jan 11, 2011)

I often think this way too. *larryw*


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## bradylewis (Dec 4, 2008)

shop tour

I'm doing it! It's scary, but not as scary as putting your fate in someone else's hands. I love my business and hate it all in the same day. It will stretch you, beat you, and reward you handsomely. Now is a pretty bad time to get into things, unless you have identifiable customers with money who's needs are not being met and you are confident that you can meet them. If that is true and you can make everything make sense realistically on paper, go for it!


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## lumberhack (Mar 20, 2011)

I tried it for 3 years. I was selling out of 3 stores. I worked 40 hours a week in printing. Made wood products at night and weekends. After 3 years I hated it. The designers, the deadlines, other people telling me what I HAD to build. Money wise I would have made more per hour working as a barista at Starbucks. I closed down the furniture/woodworking business and started a home repair business. I still get to use all my tools, as most everyone needs some woodwork at their home - built in closets, cabinets, bookcases, decks and all sorts of fun stuff!! and I make money.
Cheers!
Mark


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## Grandpa (Jan 28, 2011)

I have never been in the business totally. I do have a friend that went into the furniture making business. I could never understand where his market was in this primarliy rural area of SW Oklahoma. He finally gave it up after about 10 years. I felt like he took too much time to be competitive. He makes very fine….whatever he builds whether it is cabinets or bedroom furniture but he over builds most things. He is good though. Broke but good. I think it would depend on where you live and the market in your area. I had another friend (now deceased) that had a day job but he made a lot of money on the simple things that he sold for a dollar or 2. Can't eat on that for long though. Gave him a lot of money for fish bait though. I think it depends on your area of the country and what the people there want and can spend.


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## woodism (Apr 2, 2010)

It can be done but my shop is equipped with tools bought from guys going broke and I've put in hella hours. Others have said that there's way better ways to make money, but life's short. Almost 40 years in and I'm looking forward to get into the shop tomorrow.


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## ScottN (Jan 24, 2011)

I feel very fortunate I'm in the position I'm in.
I'm in the laborers union and I'm a foreman for a road construction company which lasts for 7 months out of the year. I'll be able to take early retirement at 55 which is in 6 years. I usually have a few jobs waiting for me when I get laid off. Depending on how much I have to claim on taxes in the form of 1099's I put money into shop to offset the taxes and build up my shop. Everything I buy I pay cash for…no overhead.
I could quit my union job today and do woodworking full time but the pension and insurance keeps me there.Plus in 6 years when I start getting my pension checks I wont HAVE to take on a lot of work so I can get in a lot of Bass fishing in the summer.
I wish you luck in what ever you decide to do.


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## pvwoodcrafts (Aug 31, 2007)

Well my wife and I are full time woodworkers.I started our business in 1992 and my wife has been full time with me for the last 5 years. No employes just us.We work out of a 24×48 shop , have my own dry kiln. 3- 24×24 lumber storage sheds, and 30,000 bd ft of lumber on stick air drying. Judy does crafts and I have done just about everything from crafts to custom kitchens.Recently I've 'bout decided we'll try the craft route, and let the custom furniture by the wayside. Do we make a living? We keep the bills paid. Good luck!! mike


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## woodism (Apr 2, 2010)

I see these kind of posts from time to time and have to wonder what the base question is. I'm thinking that it's " can I do what i want to with my life, or is everything just a big compromise" . Of course you can make a living doing woodwork. Just look around at all the wood stuff in the world. It's a wonderful , renewable resource and people just love it. However,, you have to look closer at any area just to see how people have managed to combine their passion with their livelihood. First,, you gotta pay your dues,,, are you any good? Do you have any business sense or experience? What about tooling and space.? What do you mean when you say " a living" single guy or wife and 3 kids? Do you have something unique to offer? Can your area support what you want to do? You might as well ask if you can make a living at bungee jumping because the common elements are all the same and the answer is the same . "Yes, of course you can, but you better be living near a bridge" . 
So first,, get competent, gain an encyclopedic understanding of how things get done. Only take work that is within your current capacity and build your shop with the proceeds. ( Ie Without adequate tooling and experience Big jobs can sink you fast.) Your transition should be organic,, by that I mean that you should let your business grow naturally. Add skills , tools, space , as opportunities allow. A LOT of very talented people choose not to live under the pressure of having to make a living and just do woodwork because they enjoy it so much and don't want the pressure. For me,, choosing one area, woodwork, allowed me to focus all my attention on one area and that's what it took to make it happen. I have never been out of work in 40 years. 
Just my .02 LOT's of good advice in here!


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## bubinga (Feb 5, 2011)

You must have a Marketing plan,and that must be tentative,and subject to change.


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## Resurrected (Jan 11, 2011)

It changes every other day.


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## alkillian (Mar 19, 2011)

I run a cabinet/millwork shop. Rght now it is only part time as I have medical problems that at times keep me from working full time. As far as work goes, I can get enough work to keep me ad two others working full time makingcabinets and floring


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## Billp (Nov 25, 2006)

I had a very succesful furniture maker tell me to keep it a hobby. I think he was trying to give me good advise, he said once he turned pro woodworking lost its joy for him. Not that I think I have any where near the skill needed to earn a living in woodworking. I get so much joy from woodworking I think of his advise often.


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

I can see his logic. There are many things I would do differently if this were my only source of income. As a hobby, I have the luxury of choice - in what i make, how much I will charge, how I make it, and when I make it. As a job, it is when the customer needs it. If they tell you take your time, in no hurry - this translates into mid next week or earlier.


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## REK (Aug 30, 2009)

Well I think why not open your own place. I hear a lot of guys on the site talking about marketing plans, the Jap - china manufactures, not being able to make a living….ta dat-tada..ta do….

BORING….

Work your askk off, build things you know people want,and they will come. I love the band saw box…
Some guy will make one….... start a web site…......and ask $300 bucks for a 6" square box….. the artist

Build what people want….ask a fair price…work hard and you'll make out. Good Luck…. and if you become
the next Sam Maloof….Rember Me…


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## brian88 (Oct 26, 2010)

I too have made my living from woodworking for the last couple years exclusively. After I got laid off from my construction job, my part time business became my only business. I can tell you that I have never worked harder. I am the sales person, marketing manager, architect, designer,material handler,fabricator,finisher,delivery person, and installer….I am currently rethinking my career path because of this…My business is an everything woodworking company as you can see from my website…www.udreamitwoodworking.com . I currently rent space from another cabinetmaker and this restricts me from hiring help and thus restricts my ability to complete work on a scheadule that keeps money coming in at a pace that can keep the stress level down. So in turn I also would ask all of you…what do I do?


> I have one avenue that I am considering…I have been able to sell platform beds quite a bit lately. How should I approach marketing them so that I could sell up to 5 a week


? also would would you suggest for a price point for a queen with 3 drawers per side? Drawers are melemine with std slides…I currently advertize on craigslist but am wondering about other cost effective avenues…thanks for your input.


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## Puzzleman (May 4, 2010)

Brian88, The only people who shop on Craigslist are people looking for a deal. Just from that I bet that your prices are low.

Marketing is the key to your success. And it is the hardest thing for craftsmen to do because we are so wrapped up in the making of the product. Take this weekend off, relax and let your mind free. Consider who you are selling to currently, what stores might be interested in your products, where do the people shop at for a product like yours, etc. Once you determine the answers, think about how to reach them. Is it knocking on the door of the store and talking to the buyer/manager/owner? Is it setting at an art/craft show in a certain area of town? Is it getting permission to set up a temporary store on a parking lot on the weekends?

There are opportunities out there for you. You have to find them and that is just as hard or even harder than making the product. That is why salesmen make big money while the worker does not.


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## Delta356 (Aug 2, 2010)

I do run a small woodworking business mostly busy durning the summer. I build custom built furniture. Most of the money I make, or I should I say all of it goes into the business, tools, clamps, wood fund, ect..
My income really goes into the shop.

I'm only 17 so the money income really does not matter at this point in my life (Filling up the car does..)

Thanks, Michael Frey
Portland, OR

FREY WOODWORKING INC.


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## miles125 (Jun 8, 2007)

The problem is when the floor dropped out of the housing market, it dropped out of everything houses are composed of too.


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## EPJartisan (Nov 4, 2009)

How fun to see this thread is still going. Life has changed for me over the last three months.
~ I no longer require a "Health Insurance" job, so I will nave more time to the studio and save money from purchasing my own really fricking expensive insurance.
~ I received a grant for my studio, which I feel that I earned through my dedication and passion over the last decade, and allowed me to hire a part time assistant, who is working out really well.
~ More time, more help, and free $$ = even more beautiful things I get to make, so I am pulling ahead and even purchasing new equipment for future projects.
~ the world is spending again and I once again have a back log of clients and my patrons are getting restless for more work.
Since I do not favor money, I would say … yes … "Do what you love and the money will follow."


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## brian88 (Oct 26, 2010)

puzzleman. Thank you for your input. True, craigslisters are looking for a deal…but do not have extra income to spend on advertizing so this is an avenue that I found helps somewhat. I am taking your advise and taking the weekend off (my wife also "suggested" this). Miles125 is also correct. Since the housing market dropped out so has the cabinetry market so I addapted and started focusing more on the do it yourselfer home person who is looking to add a small built in or something as well as these captains beds. I have also thought about taking some time and putting together some wood boxes, cutting boards, cribbage boards, etc…some small items more easily sold on line or at craft shows, consignment shops etc…thought this would be a way to bring in some extra $ with some of the scraps and such as well as another avenue of marketing….My dream is to have my own shop with a 500 sq/ft show room with the back wall being an all glass partition looking into the shop where the action is…this is my dream…can I make it a reality…well need some start up money…EPJartisan, how did you aquire your grant?


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## miles125 (Jun 8, 2007)

""I received a grant for my studio, which I feel that I earned through my dedication and passion over the last decade"" 
EPJartisan

and on another thread…

""Yet, I am heartened that any given economy those that create will always survive and those that are parasites will not."" 
EPJartisan

Interesting….


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## Millo (Jan 19, 2010)

EPJ: great to see things are panning out.

brian88: just checked the kitchen you made. Very pretty!


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## EPJartisan (Nov 4, 2009)

Why do you find it interesting Miles?


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## EPJartisan (Nov 4, 2009)

Hey Brian88, I had very intimidating interviews and submitted a long essay covering my goals and portfolio, I got the contact through on of my patrons. I am glad I have a rounded portfolio and dedicated history to my career, especially by struggling out of a poor background. I gather, there are a lot of privately funded grant money waiting out there for someone to match the pre-requisits. Mine is more of a prideful validation that I have enough talent and knowledge, and believe in myself enough to convince a group of other people that I will make it to my goals. It is a lot of pressure as well!


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Brian88 -

One of the things that I have done in the past is to take a couple of really nice samples along with a card that has the business info on it and ask a local department store or mall can display it or put it in one of their displays. Sometimes stores will do this if it makes their displays look better, sometimes they charge for the display, it is always good to ask - but much better if you ask in person with the piece in front of them. This also gets you in front of their decorator.

Interior decorators are always on the lookout for suppliers that will help them.


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## brian88 (Oct 26, 2010)

dbray45, Thanks for the tip. I was thinking about this and we have a mattress store in our small town and thought about asking if I cold bring in a captains bed. Just need to put a presentation together since I wouldnt really be able to bring in a sample of this….


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## Beginningwoodworker (May 5, 2008)

I hope to start making my living from woodworking.


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Brian-good luck


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## EPJartisan (Nov 4, 2009)

Still awaiting some reply Miles… to either my PM to you or here. You did quote me and I'd like to know why? I am always interested in philosophical debate, and I know fully well that I am paraphrasing Ayn Rand and her biased and slightly misguided philosophy of Objectivism, which unfortunately is currently being bastardized by the Tea Party because it is based on her opinion of communism (she was Russian you know) Though I highly doubt most in the Tea Party have or could read a volume the size of Atlas Shrugged or the Fountainhead nor have enough philosophical background to understand how it relates to America's economy and craftsmen such as us … and … alas this is slightly more politics than relates to woodworking. But still I'd like to know if you are using my words to call me a parasite in striving for success in my woodwork and artwork? I think anyone else interested in obtaining grant money for their woodwork should not feel ashamed … Which yes.. bothers me on many levels


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

This does pertain to woodworking in that the govt does and will hand out money to people that are willing to do the mounds of paperwork that go with it. I have known people that received grants with mixed results. Some have done well and made their companies grow, others not so much. You may be better off to access the Business Commerce Daily, published by the Govt Printing Office and actually sell your wares to the govt. The govt will by just about anything, one year the Dept of Agriculture awared a 5 million $ contract to a company to create a better cherry pitter. Don't know if they got it. I met a woodworker many years ago, don't know it he is still in business, that made exact replicas of antique furniture that were on display at the White House, Mount Vernon, and other places. The originals were taken out of sight where they could not be damaged from visitors.


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## EPJartisan (Nov 4, 2009)

I am sorry.. never mind I was inappropriate in my last post… my grant did not come from the government, but from private contributors. I am not going to post much anymore.. sorry to everyone. ~ later


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## brian88 (Oct 26, 2010)

EpJartisan, if you are still following…question. How did you aquire the grant from private investors? Did you present them a business plan? etc? I am at the point that I cannot grow out of renting space from another woodworker and need to take the next step. I figure the startup costs to be from 20-30k and need to aquire funding…If anyone can direct me that would be great.

I feel that building captains beds are my niche in my area as I am getting 1-4 inquires a week through just a simple craigslist add. My wife feels I am pricing myself to low…I am selling a queen size for $500 in oak with three drawers per side. Where do you guys feel I should be??? I want to make more $ but yet do not want to be pricing myself out either…


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## Resurrected (Jan 11, 2011)

Surprised to see this going


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

I don't make a living with wood (since I deal in all materials that are found in residential and commercial buildings), but I couldn't make a living without wood. How's that for an answer ?!


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## eaglewrangler (Jun 15, 2011)

interesting posts. I tried the furniture full time years ago, no family or OH then. I made decent hourly, but soon found that furniture takes very little time to make per client (vs a custom home or even lawn mowing) and while there was some repeat business, and friends of friends of clients, this grew then slowed after a while. I did custom work only, then false grained some and this ended up being a hit, and people brought me "premade" furniture to grain paint and wanted their houses painted, and suddenly I was a painter, and I can tell you it didn't thrill me but the market demand was higher for a painter than a furniture maker. I got into restoration work then timberframing.
Over the years, I have seen the gradual decay of wages in the trades. I made more starting out 20 years ago as a carpenter than people make now per hour, and factor in that prices of everything is up 3x from gas to health insurance. So taking this into account, it makes for ugly choices, but it doesn't just effect a woodworking shop, it effects everyone or for that matter every option a possible woodworker might have or thinks he has. My friend calls people who work for others bodies. People in factories, construction, retail, office workers, even computer people these days. Bodies get laid off, out sourced and replaced with someone young and with lower healthcare costs. In this economy, bodies are cheap, and it looks like it will be that way until some drastic world change event.
The other choice is to be your own boss. Find a niche that works, hire people as needed, and try to keep more money coming in than out. If you don't want employees, you almost have to work from a home shop, if you have a limited area, small client base, you end up doing what ever they need and suddenly you are tiling a bathroom after the tile guy dissapears so you can set a custom vanity.(and getting more per hour than a skilled woodworker gets for shop time) I would be nervous about a retail store to sell woodworking, unless it was in a high traffic tourist place. Custom office furniture pays well, but it isn't woodworking, but cubical set up and Ikea furniture assembly. The romantic wood worker would makes turnings or clocks, banjos or windsor chairs in a shop in the woods, there are a number around here that establish a niche and make a decent living this way. A few have coop type stores with several artisan, potters, jewelers and woodworking and share the retail costs, others do the fair/farmers market booth on the week ends. Many had prior careers/ inherited land or money enough to start out debt free so that they could afford a slow start. People seldom admit to this freely, but I know many little businesses that are this way, not that it is a bad business, but not something for those needing self supporting income for debt, family house payment etc. I think a business plan based on borrowing would never go well in woodworking, low profit, high costs for start up and tools. Start small find a niche.


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## jonnytranscend (Jun 13, 2011)

Woodworking is what i do for a living. Also custom finishing and painting. Ive been doing it for 10 years and i live very well because of it. I build custom furniture, kitchens, stairs, wine racks, beds, you name it.


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## tncraftsman (Oct 21, 2009)

I've been making a living at it for the past 1.5 years. I also fix homes and when woodworking slows handyman gigs seem to pop up. I'm not getting rich but I'm getting the bills paid and learning each day.


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## DonnyBahama (Jun 21, 2011)

I don't have much to add to the (original topic) discussion, though I'm following it with great interest. I do believe strongly, though, that success in any business comes from identifying an opportunity, then executing a good (business) plan and reworking it on-the-fly as necessary.

I do want to clear up some misinformation, though… The government does not give away money. Government grants for non-profits have all but dried up. Private grants for non-profits are rare and very difficult to get. Government grants for for-profit businesses are completely non-existent (though many "grant-writing" companies would like you to believe otherwise). I know this first-hand-I've spent the past four years (and every cent I had) trying to launch a tech startup that will be a multi-billion dollar business, creating over 2000 American jobs. You'd think the government would have SOME interest in helping something like that get started - but they don't.


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

If it is not a grant, the government only gives out loans. When there is a disaster, their help is in the form of loans. No one knows what happens to the money when it is returned, which is required, sometimes at a lower interest rate.


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## DonnyBahama (Jun 21, 2011)

I think you're mistaken about that, David. In most cases, the government does not actually loan the money. Banks loan the money and the government serves as guarantor.


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

I have seen both, either way, if the government pays out, it gets it back as a rule. From there, it seems the money is never put back from whence it came.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

I'm just here for the Ayn Rand. Are we over that? I think it's pretty courageous to embark upon a artistic endeavor for your sole source of income. I don't have the talent for it, nor the courage for it.


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## LeeBarker (Aug 6, 2010)

I have been watching this thread. Interesting ebbs and flows.

I am swaying away from grants and patrons here to discuss an important component of a thriving woodworking business.

Your personality.

If success is a three legged stool, one is good business practices, the second is quality work delivered on time, and the third is your personality.

My experience has been that people are eager to engage in a transaction in which they are honored, listened to and treated fairly.

True, our culture has turned from quality to price as the number one assessment of a potential purchase, but that's not universal.

A large amount of what I've read here suggests that one should put on one's best trousers (Henrik Ibsen quote) and go out and talk yourself silly about your shaker coat rack or knotty pine bunk beds. And of course you have to be conversant about your product and its features and benefits.

But if you start by listening, asking question, listening, asking question, listening, asking question…you will be absolutely astonished at the way doors will open for you.

There is no substitute for a well written, flexible, fluid business plan. There is no qualifying exam to be allowed to call yourself a "woodworker" but you'd better have more than a basic Popular Science Weekend Woodworking Projects skillset if you're headed out into the market place.

And once you get, there, listen.

Kindly,

Lee


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Lee i think you nailed it

You can be the maker of incredibly beautiful stuff but at the end of the day it is about relationships and connections. 
There is little that we can make that cannot come off a boat somewhere and even some of it be as good as what we produce. The personality side is what gets you the sale and possible repeat+referrals business.
For lean times that is often the difference (life and death) of staying in business. The folks that people really enjoy working with, can stay busy enough to survive the downturn.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Nicely put, Lee. In terms of your three-legged stool, I'm more like a cane with a seat on it. I feel like I have the personality to get it done; I'm just a country boy who's spent enough time in seedy bars to get along with people. However, I have zero business savvy and I've never completed a project on time (with my OCD/ADHD, however, I've started two dozen projects while working on one). It definitely takes the right blend but if I run into an arrogant craftsman, skilled or not, I negotiate with my feet. I agree with you 100%.


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## Puzzleman (May 4, 2010)

To make a living with woodworking, good wood skills are important. but even more important is the saleman's skills. It doesn't matter how good you are, if you don't listen to the customer or if all you talk about is how good you are, you will never make it.

I have learned over the years, that the most important person in my company is the salesman. If they don't do they job or fail trying, the company will have no income. With no money coming in, there is nothing to pay yourself.

Salesmanship, making the sale, is the most important job in ANY company.


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## 1978 (Jul 8, 2008)

I do it as a hobby, the $$$ is a bonus.


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## generallee (Jan 14, 2011)

i have never posted before; and don't usually have anything bad to say but; i would just like to say without using name that there is a person on this thread who' s arrogance that is completely unfounded. His work is no better than what i was doing in high school. To say that a high end customer base would pay top dollar for this work, obviously these people don't expect top quality work. I would think you would get more from this site by listening to the people that have a more knowledge than you.


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## DamnYankee (May 21, 2011)

I do not make a living off of my woodworking, however, I've almost got it paying for itself.


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## WRH (Sep 22, 2009)

You just have to find the right niche. As most of you know making something is not the hardest thing to do. It's the marketing of your product, and the selling of it that is the toughest. There isn't much that you can't do. How do you sell it?


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## Michael1 (Feb 12, 2011)

I have been making a living on woodworking for 20 years. I have owned and sold shops and started new ones. I even had a shop where I made commercial casework and sold it, just to buy the same company back 2 years later. I have sold residential cabinets and furniture as well as wooden boats and commercial cabinets. Currently I make and sell caskets full time. I have found that it is less important what you make but that you have the desire to be a full time woodworker and willing to work long hours in the hopes of making it. Its not so much how much skill you have in the shop but your business sense and determination. try to keep costs down and there is some truth to the rule that it takes money to make money. I am not saying you have to have deep pockets to succeed, but having a proper sized bank role to finance your operation and start up costs are paramount. Most business that fail is the result of lack of funding. I have seen people that were successful wood workers who made custom furniture to shops that made one item and mass produced it. The difference between those who make it and those who don't is determination, business sense, and willingness to work long hard hours rather than a standard 40 hour week. Flexibility is also important and the willingness to change gears to a different product as the market conditions warrant. Some times if things are not going the way you want them to go, you have to change to a different direction. Just always keep in mind, If you continue to do what you always do, you will continue to get what you always got.


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## WoodSpanker (Feb 10, 2009)

I build furniture, Cabinets, and odds and ends (decorations, toys, etc.) for a living. I sell furniture to local furniture stores, (I say local, because national chains won't buy from a local, small operation like myself, but the other locals will, especially in a city and state that is big on buying local, like Portland Oregon is), I also schlep items to shows to sell, and I sell on Etsy and E bay. I will never be Donald Trump, but it puts food in the kids' mouths, buys gas for my pickup, keeps a roof over our heads, and all that other stuff. I don't have my own store, but I sure would like to. Of course, one would have to hire a manager or whatnot to actually run the store. One can't be in the store selling, and in the workshop building the inventory at the same time. That would be the only hassle I could think of in doing it.


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