# Kickback Incident on Table Saw



## Ocelot (Mar 6, 2011)

This incident happened back in September. I took photos at the time but forgot to post them. I just was reminded of it when reviewing old shop photos today.

I have a Ridgid table saw with no riving knife.

I know better, but once in awhile I want to rip a short piece. This one was about 6in long. The photos should tell the story.

I can't recall now if I was wearing the full face shield or safety glasses. I *was* using the guard, which kept the projectile low so that it struck me in the belly rather than in the face. No injury, but a warning all the same.

To reconstruct what happened, I show the pieces as they were before I ripped them apart.









Showing with guard up only to illlustrate. The distance between the blade and the spliitter was more than the length of the piece being ripped. Not a good thing!









The guard was down like this.
I was pushing with a push stick as shown, between the guard and the fence.
The feather board was set so that it applied pressure only before the blade.










The cut completed without incident and the keeper piece (against the fence) was pushed clear of the blade.










At this point, I had the not too bright idea of using the push stick to flick the cutoff piece away from the blade, while the saw was still running. If I had turned off the saw (as I usually have done) and waited for it to stop, there would have been no problem.










Unfortunately, my touch was off - and instead of pushing the piece away from the blade, I pushed the near end of it away from the blade, causing the forwared end of the cutoff to rotate into the back of the blade - resulting in the kickback. For the photo, I've raised the guard (which was down in the actual incident) to show what happened. The blade picked up the piece and (especially since it was trapped under the guard), began to fling it toward me.










The cutoff continued to rotate as it passed over the blade (under the guard).










Continuing…










This is the resulting cut on the bottom of the cutoff.










6 inches is too short to rip on my saw!!!

Pieces to be ripped need to be long enough that the cut off piece will reach the splitter, which will restrain it from rotating into the back of the blade.

-Paul


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## sawdustjunkie (Sep 12, 2013)

Anytime I am cutting something that small, I use my crosscut sled. I have never had a problem when usint it.
I did have a very bad kickback about a year ago with my other saw. The piece hit me in the chest and I thought I broke some ribs. I went to one knee and stayed there for awhile.
That is when I made my first crosscut sled. I have one for larger work up to about 24" and one for slall pieces about 12" or less. Never had a problem with either.


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## Ocelot (Mar 6, 2011)

Yeah, I've been wanting a sled for awhile. Was looking at the Incra Miiter 5000, but a shopbuilt sled would do this kind of thing.

-Paul


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## Ghidrah (Jan 20, 2015)

You should not have your feather board beside the blade! Ahead of and or behind, never beside the feather board forced the mat into the blade which shot it back, simple physics.


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## Ocelot (Mar 6, 2011)

The feather board was applying pressure only before the blade.


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## bondogaposis (Dec 18, 2011)

It has happened to me too. I now have rule not to rip anything shorter 12" on the table saw. I rip the short stuff on the band saw and hand plane the roughness off.


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## Ocelot (Mar 6, 2011)

I would use the bandsaw, but I've got a Wixey digital readout on my table saw, and not on the bandsaw. I really like being able to rip to a very precise width. I do rip rough lumber on the bandsaw though.

I'd like to upgrade to a saw with a riving knife.


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## whitebeast88 (May 27, 2012)

Glad to hear you weren't hurt first of all.
I normally use the bandsaw also on short pieces.
We all need a reminder of what could happen.


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## Kazooman (Jan 20, 2013)

Sounds like one of those situations where the Grr-Ripper would be a nice tool to have. I plan to get one the next time I take a road trip to the Woodcraft store.


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## Ghidrah (Jan 20, 2015)

Then why does the 1st pic show the trailing edge of the feather board at least an inch past the leading edge of the blade?


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## REO (Sep 20, 2012)

push sticks do not control either the work piece or the off cut. Push sticks can not accurately apply force to the block in a specific direction. try pushing a smaller piece of wood as was cut here with a push stick and you will see that you have to correct the path constantly. the feather board BEFORE the leading edge of the blade is ok but there is nothing to guide the block after separation is made , pushing the block on the outside corner drove the back corner into the space between the splitter and the blade. Glad that you weren't hurt. sad that this lesson has to be learned over and over by others. Shutting the saw off before clearing the blade is not a safe practice either. On your saw there is no brake on shutting down but on those saws where there is when the brake injection happens there is just enough flex in the works or the blade for it to get a purchase on the material and kick it. I use a sled for picture frames and production cuts at times. I do not have a Gripper but they do have them where I work they are a very good piece of equipment! other types of feeding stock can maintain very good control also. Never have I liked the use of push "sticks".


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

Ocelot - I've been doing this a while as I'm sure a lot of others.

1. I know I'll catch hell for saying this, but I'm going to say it.

Get rid of that thing you called a guard.

The only thing it guards is the company against a lawsuit. IMO its worse than not having one at all. If you had been able to see your work, maybe you could have stopped the cut and avoided the whole thing. My old Xactasaw has a similar piece of junk splitter and I have never used it once from day 1. You need something right behind the blade. Unless you can retrofit a riving knife, use can either make your own or get something like the MicroJig splitter system.

2. You should be using zero clearance inserts. Make or buy several of them. f you go with the Microjig or a homemade splitter you need one anyway, and one for angled cuts, one for a dado blade, etc.

3. Try using a different push stick than what you show. I think push sticks are actually dangerous unless you're really minding the store. They work ok but not for short pieces because they tend to put pressure at one point. Plus you need to use two of them so you don't have one hand free to do a quick shut down. A simple 2×4 with a small heel on the end works much better, but if you're paranoid about getting your fingers within 6" of a blade make it a 2×6. There's plenty of demos out there on making these.

4. Last but not least, check the slot/blade/fence for parallel just to rule out that possiblity.

IMO If you could have seen your work, had a decent splitter and used a different push stick, this might not have happened. That being said, ripping short or thin stock are two of the highest risk operations.

Who said the most important safety device in the shop is between our ears?


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

I'm glad that you were not hurt seriously. I've had one kickback in 40 years. Fortunately neither was I injured. However, I know that it can certainly happen.

helluvawreck aka Charles
http://woodworkingexpo.wordpress.com


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## Ocelot (Mar 6, 2011)

Thanks for all the posts.

@Ghidrah,

I think it must just be the angle of the photo. The featherboard was before the blade. I should have photographed it straight down from above. In the last 2 photos, I think the featherboard had been moved. Maybe that's what you're looking at. The first few photos show it exactly where it was, since I had clamped a little improvised hold-down on it and it's still clamped I can see in the 1st photo. In any case, the pieces were well past the featherboard when the cut completed.

@REO,

I can't imagine using a 2×6 for a push stick. It would be too heavy for me! I use thin sticks with a step on the end. I can apply down pressure, side presure and push at the same time. In this case, the push stick I don't think was an issue during the cut. I completely agree that the push stick does not control the off-cut.

@rwe2156,

Thanks for reminding me of the micro-jig splitters on a ZCI. That would also have prevented the iincident. On the other hand, I've had this saw for 15 years and always use the guard for through cuts (not, obviously for grooving cuts). Without the gaurd, there is no splitter at all - which is, in my opinion, worse. I've never had any problem seeing the cut. Also, the guard in this case kept the flying piece down low - preventing it from flying up into my face. I may have had a full-face shiled on (I sometimes forget to use it), but even so, I'm sure I'm better off getting hit in the belly (where I have some considerble padding), than in the face.

-Paul


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## JoeinGa (Nov 26, 2012)

I'm just gonna wait for that guy who *LOVES * Ridgid tools to show up! 
.
.


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

a push shoe helps a bunch.


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

> I m just gonna wait for that guy who *LOVES * Ridgid tools to show up!
> 
> - JoeinGa


I thought it was rich at first.


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## Ocelot (Mar 6, 2011)

> I m just gonna wait for that guy who *LOVES * Ridgid tools to show up!
> - JoeinGa


Is there such a guy?! My TS is just what I have. I don't do enough woodworking to justify a complete upgrade. It's good enough in a low-key kinda, sorta way.


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## Ocelot (Mar 6, 2011)

> a push shoe helps a bunch.
> 
> - TheFridge


I'm going to look that up! Can't say that I've heard of one.

-Paul


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

I got my idea from watching William Ng's 5 cuts to a perfect sled you tube video. Or maybe his box joint jig video. Can't remember.


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

> I may have had a full-face shiled on (I sometimes forget to use it), but even so, I m sure I m better off getting hit in the belly (where I have some considerble padding), than in the face.
> 
> -Paul
> 
> - Ocelot


A full face shield for TS work?

I know a couple sawyers with huge sawmills that don't do that!!

Have a good one!!


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## Ocelot (Mar 6, 2011)

Well, I bought the face shield a year or so ago - can't recall why. I keep forgetting to use it. It's hanging sometimes on the arm of the RAS.

Main reason I got it was safety glasses don't work as well over my vision glasses as I would like.

They are only $10 bucks at Amazon right now, so you can imagine that they're not exactly bullet-proof. It's just a thin sheet of polycarbonate (like Lexan). That stuff is pretty tough though.

http://smile.amazon.com/MSA-Safety-Works-641817021569-Shield/dp/B0042TO6F0/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1426634378&sr=8-5&keywords=face+shield


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## gfadvm (Jan 13, 2011)

Ocelot, I have thrown all my push sticks away!! I use only push shoes that are long enough to keep the workpiece from climbing up the back edge of the blade. If I'm ripping a longer board, I use my push shoe and a hand held featherboard with a rabbet along the edge to both hold the board down and against the fence. I'll try to find my pics for you.

For the record, I took both my blade guard and riving knife off my saw shortly after I bought it and have not missed either!


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## bonesbr549 (Jan 1, 2010)

> You should not have your feather board beside the blade! Ahead of and or behind, never beside the feather board forced the mat into the blade which shot it back, simple physics.
> 
> - Ghidrah


That was the first thing I noticed in his pics!

Next I'd reccomend Grippr's they hold downward pressure on both sides of the blade.


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## Gixxerjoe04 (Jan 31, 2014)

I've had one kick back so far, scary to say the least and luckily I wasn't a few inches taller or it would have put me down real hard haha. But I'd def use a sled for small stuff or my micro jig griper, I'm sure you could make your own but I think it's worth the money.


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## Ocelot (Mar 6, 2011)

Thanks for your comments, guys.

@gfadvm,

Well, I'll take your word that it works for you, and I can understand why some people would remove the guard, but I still can't figure why you would take off the riving knife. There are a number of people on LJ who have gone to considerable lengths to retrofit riving knives onto old saws which didn't have them. I'm sure a riving knife would have prevented this from happening. Was it prone to get out of allignment? What was the issue that led to it's removal?

When you said "push shoe", I was imagining something else - something like a mini-sled.

@bonesbr549,

The feather board, at the time of the incident, was not pushing beside the blade, but before it. I've written this twice already on this thread. (I promise I'm grinning while I type). It had been moved before the last couple of photos were taken. The feather board, in any case, was no longer contacting the piece when the kickback occured.

The photos, being a reconstruction, don't exactly match what happened. In particular, the cutoff never was as far forward as it is shown. The end nearest me was just past the leading edge of the blade, where it would naturally stop after separating from the keeper piece on the other side. The photo of the bottom of the cutoff gives a clear indication of where it was in relation to the blade.

-Paul


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

> Ocelot, I have thrown all my push sticks away!! I use only push shoes that are long enough to keep the workpiece from climbing up the back edge of the blade. If I m ripping a longer board, I use my push shoe and a hand held featherboard with a rabbet along the edge to both hold the board down and against the fence. I ll try to find my pics for you.
> 
> For the record, I took both my blade guard and riving knife off my saw shortly after I bought it and have not missed either
> 
> - gfadvm


I agree with your re: push sticks. There is a force vector created when you push that might not keep the wood against the fence so you need 2 of them, one pushing and one keeping wood against fence like a feather board. This is bad because if something is going wrong with the cut, you can't turn loose safely and don't have a free hand to shut the machine off.

I think your push block is ok, but IMO needs to be a little beefier. If that handle ever broke you might have a problem. I make mine out of 1X8 material and but a curve in back as a handle.

It has a replaceable heel on the back so as it gets chewed up by the blade, I remove the heel, joint the bottom, put a new heel on and bingo, a new push stick. Mine is got enough stock that I can do this 5 or 6 times before making another.

Another advantage a push block is when ripping a very narrow piece, the push block takes it all the way through the cut safely so it can't get trapped between the blade and fence.

I went commando like you for 15 years but last year I installed a Microjig splitter after a minor "incident" making drawer bottoms and dropping my guard (my brain).

Its great especially for ripping wide, thin stock and you can pull it out in a second for grooves.

But that piece of crap they call a guard went in the trash long ago…...


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## Ocelot (Mar 6, 2011)

As for the pushers… I can see that without the guard holding the wood down, you might need somethink like your shoe-think to hold down the front of the piece being cut. But, the guard does that too (If'n you use it). The guard is made so that it will sit level on top of the piece being cut - applying a small downforce by gravity.

-Paul


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## gfadvm (Jan 13, 2011)

After reviewing the "wreck", I don't think the push shoe or a riving knife would have prevented it. When you pushed that offcut into the blade, it was all over. I MAKE myself leave those offcuts alone until the blade is stopped.

I cut a lot of wood with quite a bit of tension and it was always pinching the riving knife so I removed it. Now I shut the saw off and stick a wedge in the cut behind the blade. Works for me. Your mileage may vary.


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## Ocelot (Mar 6, 2011)

Ah, tense boards. Ya' gotta watch out for 'em. They'll do 'ya in if'n you turn your back on 'em. 

I see. Thanks for the lesson, gfadvm!

Is this rough lumber (not yet jointed) you are ripping?

-Paul


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

> As for the pushers… I can see that without the guard holding the wood down


If you're talking about the anti-kickback cauls on each side of the splitter I wouldn't rely on them.



> , you might need something like your shoe-thing to hold down the front of the piece being cut. But, the guard does that too (If n you use it).


I guess your not. 
Please explain to us how a floating guard can hold wood down through a cut like a push block.
I'm beginning to understand why you're having problems, Paul.



> The guard is made so that it will sit level on top of the piece being cut - applying a small downforce by gravity.
> 
> -Paul
> 
> - Ocelot


Again, incorrect.

You are seriously misinformed about this aspect of TS safety.

I mean this sincerely I have no idea who you are, but this post clearly shows you have serious misconception on the purpose of a guard.

A guard's only purpose is to keep your hands off the blade, and that's it. The small amount of weight on top of a board will not prevent kickback or hold the piece securely flat through the cut.

Like I said in a previous post, please unplug your machine and PLEASE invest some time in a TS safety course before you get seriously injured.


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## gfadvm (Jan 13, 2011)

Ocelot, The rip cuts I was referring to are mostly straight edging live edge slabs that I saw on my mill. Most of these are 8' long, 12-20" wide, and heavy! All hardwood.


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## Ocelot (Mar 6, 2011)

> Ocelot, The rip cuts I was referring to are mostly straight edging live edge slabs that I saw on my mill. Most of these are 8 long, 12-20" wide, and heavy! All hardwood.
> 
> - gfadvm


That makes sense.

-Paul


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## hotbyte (Apr 3, 2010)

Regarding safety glasses over eye glasses, have you tried the ones from Home Depot designed to fit over your eye glasses? I used them before getting prescription safety glasses and they worked great…a little big and bulky but not uncomfortable. I think these are the ones I have.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

> a push shoe helps a bunch.
> 
> - TheFridge


Fridge - - how would the push shoe have helped in this case?

I use the shoe and it pushes the piece (between the blade and fence) through the cut. That wasn't the problem.
He tried to flick the off cut out of the way and it hit the blade and was picked up and launched at him.


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## nailbanger2 (Oct 17, 2009)

OK, a lot of people here giving their advice on things that had nothing to do with this incident. I've actually read this whole thing (hint, hint) and no one has asked my first question- Ocelot, where were you standing? I generally stay to the left of the blade, if there is kickback, it will get my arm, maybe.

My second question is for REO- why don't you think shutting the saw down before clearing offcuts is a safe practice? I have never had an offcut come flying at me when the saw was shut down. I can't understand when I see someone make a video and they reach over ( sometimes with their hands!) and clear the piece. The only reason I can think of is for speed of production, and that is not a good enough reason for my fingers. Rant over.


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## nailbanger2 (Oct 17, 2009)

By the way, Ocelot, your feather board should be before the blade, not past it. J/K


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## b67mack (Jul 7, 2014)

> OK, a lot of people here giving their advice on things that had nothing to do with this incident. I ve actually read this whole thing (hint, hint) and no one has asked my first question- Ocelot, where were you standing? I generally stay to the left of the blade, if there is kickback, it will get my arm, maybe.
> 
> - nailbanger2


ok I have to ask because I want to learn something from this-
if a kickback comes off the left side of the blade ??? How does standing to the left side of the blade keep you out of harms way? BTW - broke my left hand thumb last summer from a kickback sawing just the right edge off a 24 inch square of plywood - yes it was freehand and I was standing to the left and I lapsed my concentration and because I was on the left i pushed slightly away from me and - well BANG​


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

> OK, a lot of people here giving their advice on things that had nothing to do with this incident. I ve actually read this whole thing (hint, hint) and no one has asked my first question- Ocelot, where were you standing? I generally stay to the left of the blade, if there is kickback, it will get my arm, maybe.


Nailbanger-

Stand to the left of the blade? How can you stand to the left of the blade and push wood through a cut?
The only time I'm to the left of the blade is cutting sheet goods.

If you're technique is based on avoiding or expecting kickback you're already screwed because you'll get in more trouble being scared of a machine.

Make a proper push block and you won't have a problem.

If you're cutting thin stock make sure your blade is just clearing the wood and use a splitter-and NOT the one that came on the saw.

The question for Ocelot is not where was he standing, its why is he even using a table saw?
It is quite evident he has some basic misconceptions about the function of a guard.


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

> By the way, Ocelot, your feather board should be before the blade, not past it. J/K
> 
> - nailbanger2


He already said that was a parallax issue taking the picture.


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## hotbyte (Apr 3, 2010)

> By the way, Ocelot, your feather board should be before the blade, not past it. J/K
> 
> - nailbanger2
> He already said that was a parallax issue taking the picture.
> ...


Ummmm…J/K is a common forum shortcut for Just Kiding. Perhaps you shouldn't be using a computer???


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## CharlesA (Jun 24, 2013)

I mounted my paddle power switch so I can turn off the saw with my hip just when the wood clears the blade. Works for me.


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## sawdustjunkie (Sep 12, 2013)

Looking at the photos, it is clear that the feather board is too close to the blade. The actual spring action of the feather board is pushing the piece back into the blade.
That small of a piece you cut should have been cut on a cross cut sled. If not, you really need a gizmo like the micro jig or a large push stick.
The micro jig holds both sides of the piece and will not let the off piece go into the blade, unless you pull it into the blade.
I always try to stand to the left of the blade and use my hip to shut the saw off. That is why the switch is mounted there in the first place.
The others are quite correct in saying the blade guard isn't for holding down the wood. It's purpose is to keep your hands away from the blade and nothing else.
That being said, that wasn't the problem you had. You should have just powered off the saw before you touch the off cut piece. If you did that, it would have never happened.


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## TimberMagic (Mar 4, 2015)

A GRR-Ripper push pad can be used to rip short pieces. Pressure down and against the fence is possible with one. I swear by them. You have no control of where a piece of wood is going with a push stick, other than forward thru the blade. With the GRR-Ripper, you have excellent control both forward, and down, and against the fence.

I have two, bought as a special 2-pack that included some extras. You can rip longer pieces and always have one pad on the wood by using a hand-over-hand method to keep the pads touching the wood as it moves thru the blade. They have a special rubber anti-slip material on the base and legs, and it is easily cleaned with water. The pads also have an adjustable, and removable, sacrificial push plate if you need extra pushing pressure to advance the wood thru the blade. I imagine the company sells these, but I laser cut plenty of spares when I need to replace one.

Check out their YouTube video to see how versatile they are.


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

> a push shoe helps a bunch.
> 
> - TheFridge
> 
> ...


A push shoe helps to cut just about anything. Especially short pieces. Which was what the first 1/2 dozen people were talking about. Cutting short pieces and having a piece of scrap kickback are 2 different issues.


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## gfadvm (Jan 13, 2011)

Ocelot, The horse is dead but they're still beating it!


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## Greylion (Jan 31, 2011)

I really appreciate your post. I have expirienced kickbacks but none have been bad. You remind me to pay attention to what I am doing and to never completely lose my fear of the saw.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

> A push shoe helps to cut just about anything. Especially short pieces. Which was what the first 1/2 dozen people were talking about. Cutting short pieces and having a piece of scrap kickback are 2 different issues.
> 
> - TheFridge


I suppose I am still missing it. My shoe only pushes the "keeper" piece that is between the fence and blade.
the shoe doesn't touch the Offcut

If I push the offcut, that is just laying on the left of the blade, not captured at all, laterally into the back of the spinning blade it will launch it.

I always learned for kickback was more of an issue when your keeper piece moves away from the fence and is grabbed by the blade. The shoe helps that as you control the cut better and push the keeper board straight through.

But AFTER pushing my cut through…. the shoe wont stop you from flicking the offcuts into the blade.


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

> By the way, Ocelot, your feather board should be before the blade, not past it. J/K
> 
> - nailbanger2
> He already said that was a parallax issue taking the picture.
> ...


FYI Perhaps I'm over 50?? ROF LOL (J/K actually I'm 59)

Learn something every day….

Isn't it about time to close this thread?


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## nailbanger2 (Oct 17, 2009)

Perhaps it is time, rwe2156, but I'd like to answer some questions addressed to me first.

b67mack- Everyone has their own technique, mine is to stand to the left of the blade with my right arm pushing the wood toward the end of the cut. I use a shoe, not a stick. If a kickback occurs, it will most likely throw the piece of wood directly back. That is to say, if you are using a fence, and not freehanding. That is where the lapse of concentration came in.

rwe2156- Hopefully Ocelot has learned some things from this thread concerning technique. I think you were meaning the general "you" in one of your posts as it applied to fear of the table saw. I agree that you should not fear your tools, but this one tool demands a great deal of respect and care. Be careful out there.


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## ic3ss (Oct 19, 2010)

Last year I too had a kickback incident that left me with two severely smashed fingers on my crosscut sled. Fingers are ok now, but I've since done a lot of thinking on better ways and better tools. I bought a Grripper and use it on every cut that I can use it on. It's changed how I work. The other thing is that I work on an old Unisaw, no safety anthing on this baby. I've decided that I want a newer table saw that has left tilt and a riving knife built in. Maybe another year before I can afford it, I just hope I still have fingers when I get there.

Wayne


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## goochs (Jan 13, 2015)

I can't believe how far back that riving knife is.. can't you adjust that. I use to have a bt3100 and the riving knife was within 1/8" of the blade??


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## goochs (Jan 13, 2015)

love my grrrippers, just don't like beig over the blade but seems quite safe. I don't use a blade guard with them but have thought about ordering their splitters


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

> I can t believe how far back that riving knife is.. can t you adjust that. I use to have a bt3100 and the riving knife was within 1/8" of the blade??
> 
> - goochs


It is not a riving knife. It is a fixed splitter and cannot be adjusted. It has to allow clearance for the blade when at full height.


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## goochs (Jan 13, 2015)

> I can t believe how far back that riving knife is.. can t you adjust that. I use to have a bt3100 and the riving knife was within 1/8" of the blade??
> 
> - goochs
> 
> ...


Oh.. yes mine went up and down with the blade, ridgid must have a bad design.


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## Ocelot (Mar 6, 2011)

> Oh.. yes mine went up and down with the blade, ridgid must have a bad design.
> 
> - goochs


It's a 16-year-old saw. They don't make them that way now.


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