# Mortise and tenon easier than half-lap?



## TravisN (Jan 15, 2019)

Hi all,

I'm planning my first table build and looking at various designs. I've been considering what kind of joinery to use for legs and supporting pieces and I keep coming back to half-lap and mortise and tenon joints. I know M&T is a staple of woodworking, but honestly it has scared me because it seems like you have to be able to saw and chisel with exactness and/or use tools I don't have (e.g., drill press with large bits) or fancy jigs for the table saw and router, and there are many more steps involved. Half-lap, on the other hand, I think I can simply make on my table saw.

In comparing the two, I found this thread where many people said they found m&t joints easier to make than half-laps. So I'm wondering, what am I missing? Do you agree, and if so, why? I'm not trying to start another thread about which is better, just which is easier for you to make?


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## BlueRidgeDog (Jan 2, 2019)

I make great tenons on the table saw without a jig and you can make a mortise with nothing more than a chisel.

If you cut your mortise first, you only need to make the cut square, and you don't need to be too fussy with the edge as it will be covered, so if you bruise it somewhat, nobody will know. From there you size your tenon to match. When laying out a mortise, I typically come in from the edge of the mating part equally, so the cheek cuts of the tenon on the table saw are all done at once.

Lots of folks use other tools to speed up the mortise (router, drill, drill press) but they are not essential. Other than strength, MT joints are fantastic in that most of the working area is hidden so you have a very clean joint, especially if you make clean shoulder cuts on the tenon using a table saw.


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## ChefHDAN (Aug 7, 2010)

> MT joints are fantastic in that most of the working area is hidden so you have a very clean joint, especially if you make clean shoulder cuts on the tenon using a table saw.
> - BlueRidgeDog


Agreed, a sloppy HL will mostly always be visible, the tenon & mortise can be shaved/shimmed to work, but if you miss on part of a HL you're looking at starting over…


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## BlueRidgeDog (Jan 2, 2019)

...you can also pin and/or draw pin a MT joint for added strength, and the ability to assemble large items without clamps.


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## EarlS (Dec 21, 2011)

+1 on M/T. I'm not sure I would use half lap joints on table legs.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Half lap joints are easy, AND easy to strengthen. Drill and place dowels thru each joint works well. Plus, IMO they make a very attractive joint. I would probably choose a larger dowel size for table legs, matched with the selected drill bit.



















NOTE: If you insist on M&T joints, may I suggest using "floating tenons", where both pieces to be joined have mortises cut into them and a piece is cut in the size of desired tenon to fit. The tenon is then glued into both adjoining pieces and clamped to dry. These are easier to fit perfectly, in that you can make them slightly loose and let the glue take up the space.










Horizontal Mortising Machine

*OR JUST PUT A DOWEL ON THE LEG END as I did below:
*



























https://www.lumberjocks.com/projects/90000


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## bondogaposis (Dec 18, 2011)

M & T joints are the bread and butter of furniture making. My recommendation is to acquire the tooling you need to make this everyday joint. The tenons are easily made on the table saw, the mortises can be made simply with a drill press and a chisel. An alternative to the the drill press is a plunge router. You don't need large bits as 1/4" is standard mortise size for for 3/4" stock. I often make 1/4" mortises with my Bosch Colt trim router. One advantage the M & T joints have over half laps is the that the entire joint is hidden, so precision is not as critical and any errors are easily fixed.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

With hand tools, you don't have to "saw and chisel to exactness", you have to saw somewhat close and then pare down to the line. Its more about having patience and taking it slow. Unless you are on an assembly line making 250 tables or something. But if you are making a single table, take your time and enjoy the process.


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## DustyM (May 16, 2016)

+1 on Mike's suggestion to use floating tenons. Yeah, there are expensive jigs and tools for this (panto-routers and the Domino come to mind), but you can also make your own jig on the cheap. It looks like the free plans I used are now only available to subscribers at Woodcraft, but you can find these all over the place, and they can be as simple or complex as you want. If you have a decent router (I have the Bosch 1617) with plunge capability, these are pretty simple to make and use, and are now my preferable joinery method for tables.


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## EarlS (Dec 21, 2011)

IMO - loose tenons are twice as much work since you have to make 2 mortises and then make the loose tenon to fit. There is a place for loose tenons just like there is for traditional M&T and half lap. For that matter, you could dowel it, or use pocket hole joinery, just to name a few ways to go.

It really comes down to your preference.


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## TravisN (Jan 15, 2019)

I appreciate all of the feedback guys. I'm sure once I get a little practice with M&T they will quickly become a favorite. They just seem so much more complicated than half-lap. But I see what you are saying about mistakes being more costly with a half-lap. I do have a plunge router, just need the appropriate bit and some sharp chisels, which shouldn't be too hard to acquire.


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## TravisN (Jan 15, 2019)

By the way, love the pictures Mike!


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Afraid I do things backwards….I do tenons first, sized to the chisel I will use to make the mortises….for me, there was too good of a chance I'd make the tenons too skinny…for the already made mortise….Now, I make the tenon, and size the mortise to fit…using the tenon to do the mortise layout…


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## TravisN (Jan 15, 2019)

> Afraid I do things backwards….I do tenons first, sized to the chisel I will use to make the mortises….for me, there was too good of a chance I d make the tenons too skinny…for the already made mortise….Now, I make the tenon, and size the mortise to fit…using the tenon to do the mortise layout…
> 
> - bandit571


I can see myself messing it up either way. Do the mortise first and make the tenon too skinny. Do the tenon first and make the mortise too big… :/


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## BlueRidgeDog (Jan 2, 2019)

When cutting tenons on the table saw, I find it easy to sneak up on a fit when I have a mortise to test against. Don't shoot for perfect on the first cut, and use a test piece. Once your test piece is fitting but tight you are there.

Learning MT joiner is probably the best basic step you can undertake as it is the mother of all joints and will serve you well in many many applications. Strong, hidden, simple to make and easy to adjust.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

Bridle joints have twice the glue area as half lap, plus the joint looks the same front and back. That might matter for something like a door where the stiles should go fully top to bottom.


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## TravisN (Jan 15, 2019)

> When cutting tenons on the table saw, I find it easy to sneak up on a fit when I have a mortise to test against. Don t shoot for perfect on the first cut, and use a test piece. Once your test piece is fitting but tight you are there.
> 
> Learning MT joiner is probably the best basic step you can undertake as it is the mother of all joints and will serve you well in many many applications. Strong, hidden, simple to make and easy to adjust.
> 
> - BlueRidgeDog


"Sneaking up" will be key. I haven't used test pieces much yet because I've been too impatient to make an exact replica of my target piece, so I just go slow with my intended piece. I know that's risky technique and is one of several habits I should change.


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## TravisN (Jan 15, 2019)

> Bridle joints have twice the glue area as half lap, plus the joint looks the same front and back. That might matter for something like a door where the stiles should go fully top to bottom.
> 
> - Rich


I looked at bridle joints the other day and would like to try one when the right project comes along.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> When cutting tenons on the table saw, I find it easy to sneak up on a fit when I have a mortise to test against. Don t shoot for perfect on the first cut, and use a test piece. Once your test piece is fitting but tight you are there.
> 
> Learning MT joiner is probably the best basic step you can undertake as it is the mother of all joints and will serve you well in many many applications. Strong, hidden, simple to make and easy to adjust.
> 
> ...


I used to do the table saw method and then sneak up on the line with a block plane and then chisel(where the edge of the block plane can't reach), kind of a lot of tedious work, have to be patient, room for error. I thought about getting the LN rabbet block plane or shoulder plane. But this Paul Sellers method is a game changer if you have a router plane


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## DustyM (May 16, 2016)

> Afraid I do things backwards….I do tenons first, sized to the chisel I will use to make the mortises….for me, there was too good of a chance I d make the tenons too skinny…for the already made mortise….Now, I make the tenon, and size the mortise to fit…using the tenon to do the mortise layout…
> 
> - bandit571


Bandit makes a good point, but I do find this approach advantageous when working with long rails that would be unwieldy for me to approach any other way. Pros and cons.


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## TravisN (Jan 15, 2019)

> I used to do the table saw method and then sneak up on the line with a block plane and then chisel(where the edge of the block plane can t reach), kind of a lot of tedious work, have to be patient, room for error. I thought about getting the LN rabbet block plane or shoulder plane. But this Paul Sellers method is a game changer if you have a router plane
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Alas I don't have a router plane. Add it to my list! I do have a block plane, though, I could try the tedious method.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> Alas I don t have a router plane. Add it to my list! I do have a block plane, though, I could try the tedious method.
> 
> - Travis


One thing that is still on my list is this plane https://www.lie-nielsen.com/product/handplanes/rabbet-block-plane-w-nicker?node=4063
Everyone that has one loves it, and would make cleaning up tenons and sneaking up on the line SOOOO much easier, but its always money…


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## BlueRidgeDog (Jan 2, 2019)

> Alas I don t have a router plane. Add it to my list! I do have a block plane, though, I could try the tedious method.
> 
> - Travis


Nor do I. I use a block plane and it takes just seconds. I clean out the base where my plane can't get with a chisel. Pretty is optional….


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## Moai (Feb 9, 2009)

I would prefer Mortise and Tenons, its a classic joint, the rest of the stuff is just ugly short-cuts for lazy people. Mortises can be done in minutes by hand, all you need is:
The right Chisel
A solid Hammer
The right Method.

Please take a look at this video, this guy teachs the right method to make them quick (15:43):





I particularly use Sorby Registered Mortise Chisels, a steel Japanese Hammer -15 oz for Mortises.
Gyokucho Ryoba 610 and Dozuki 372 for the tenons with the help of a Mortise plane.
is worth the investment.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

IMO, the best way to make floating tenons is "by-the-foot", quite literally. 
I usually cut a prospective tenon piece at ~12-18in long X ~1/4-3/8in thick X ~1in wide, using my TS. I cut a strip off of an existing board.

Two methods of trimming tenon to size/thickness:

Use a lunchbox planer to get an exact thickness, *OR*
You could use a couple bench dogs on your WB and a #5 or #6 jointer for thinning to proper thickness. Thinning to 1/4in can be tricky in this manner, but can be done. Using a rather long piece is best, in that that will help you in staying away from snagging the bench dogs with the plane blade/cutter. In the end remember, you will be cutting several individual short (~1-1/2in) tenons from this longer piece, for your glue-up.


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## TravisN (Jan 15, 2019)

I was looking to make something like this (except out of ash):









I want the long runners to be detachable from the legs in case I have to take it apart and move, so I thought half-lap with a bolt would work there. For the legs I thought M&T would be good. I was initially reluctant to do a floating tenon because that would involve two mortices per joint instead of one, but thinking about the way the pieces come together at an angle, a floating tenon would probably be easier. Would I need to worry about racking in this design (no aprons), or are the long leg runners sufficient to keep things sturdy?


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> I was looking to make something like this (except out of ash):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks like the legs may have a half lap or bridle joints onto the bearer? Hard to see. If I was making something nice and wanted it knock down, I would avoid bolts at all costs personally. If it were required I would look more at keyed/wedged through tenons.


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## TravisN (Jan 15, 2019)

> Looks like the legs may have a half lap or bridle joints onto the bearer? Hard to see. If I was making something nice and wanted it knock down, I would avoid bolts at all costs personally. If it were required I would look more at keyed/wedged through tenons.
> 
> - SMP


Thanks SMP. Can you elaborate on why you would avoid bolts at all costs? I thought that would be the simplest way of securing the joint without using glue. I will research keyed/wedged through tenons as I'm not sure what those are.

I'm not worried about copying the joinery from the picture, just the form. I would like to make it strong, sturdy, and ideally I could separate the long runners from the legs so it would be easier to transport if I move in the future. The wife isn't worried about its transportability, but that's also not really been her problem


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## BlueRidgeDog (Jan 2, 2019)

Bolts can only be put in and taken out so many times, and they are very small compared to the stresses that they get. For a long runner that is to be removable, the classic and amazingly long term joint is a wedged mortise and tenon joint. "IF" I wanted that exact look and wanted it to be able to be taken apart, I would use a threaded insert on the stretcher with a bolt that comes up from the bottom.


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## TravisN (Jan 15, 2019)

> Bolts can only be put in and taken out so many times, and they are very small compared to the stresses that they get. For a long runner that is to be removable, the classic and amazingly long term joint is a wedged mortise and tenon joint. "IF" I wanted that exact look and wanted it to be able to be taken apart, I would use a threaded insert on the stretcher with a bolt that comes up from the bottom.
> 
> - BlueRidgeDog


Thanks BlueRidgeDog, that makes sense. I'm going to need to start practicing making mortise and tenons, then wedged mortises. Could I still do a wedged mortise with a floating tenon? For example, glue the tenon into the stretcher mortise, but don't glue the tenon in the leg mortise with the wedge. The glue is stronger than the wood, right, so it would be as if I'd made a regular tenon on the stretcher that doesn't get glued into the leg mortise.


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## hkmiller (Mar 6, 2018)

> Half lap joints are easy, AND easy to strengthen. Drill and place dowels thru each joint works well. Plus, IMO they make a very attractive joint. I would probably choose a larger dowel size for table legs, matched with the selected drill bit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Miller High life. Reminds me of high school. I need to get some.


> Half lap joints are easy, AND easy to strengthen. Drill and place dowels thru each joint works well. Plus, IMO they make a very attractive joint. I would probably choose a larger dowel size for table legs, matched with the selected drill bit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## JohnMcClure (Aug 24, 2016)

In case you haven't seen it yet, watch Paul Sellers on Youtube making a mortise and tenon. He uses only a chisel to make beautiful mortises in minutes; yours will be ugly and take 3x as long, but they will work and you will get better. The only tool you need is a $3 chisel and a hammer (and a pencil and a square… and a kitchen knife).

Sellers will also make the tenons by hand with simple tools, but you can make the shoulder cuts on the TS easily and finish up by hand or however you want… probably do most of the work on the TS and then sneak up on a proper fit by hand.

Practice chopping a mortise in a pine 4×4 to get a feel for it before you attack your ash.


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## TravisN (Jan 15, 2019)

> In case you haven t seen it yet, watch Paul Sellers on Youtube making a mortise and tenon. He uses only a chisel to make beautiful mortises in minutes; yours will be ugly and take 3x as long, but they will work and you will get better. The only tool you need is a $3 chisel and a hammer (and a pencil and a square… and a kitchen knife).
> 
> Sellers will also make the tenons by hand with simple tools, but you can make the shoulder cuts on the TS easily and finish up by hand or however you want… probably do most of the work on the TS and then sneak up on a proper fit by hand.
> 
> ...


I have seen his video and he makes it look incredibly easy. Can't wait for my first bungled attempt. The feedback I've gotten on this forum suggests that the joint is fairly forgiving. Crossing my fingers. Will grab some pine on my next trip to HD and get practicing!


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Miller High life. Reminds me of high school. I need to get some.
> 
> - hkmiller


My gosh, double-quoting a post that was bloated to begin with, just for this?


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## TravisN (Jan 15, 2019)

> Miller High life. Reminds me of high school. I need to get some.
> 
> - hkmiller
> 
> ...


Lol, maybe he'd already had some of the Miller High Life at the time of writing


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## oldguy2 (Jun 29, 2014)

Travis, wow. what a great table design. And you have so many replies. Soooo. get some pine. pick a way to practice your choice of making what you want for a joinery and go practice on scrap wood. Ash will be great as a hard wood and sanding to fit or shaving to fit with a chisel easier than the soft wood, when you do the final one. I like the long runner between the legs and that is more like a half lap since you want it to disassemble, and a screw underneath. I would guess that your design has one or two upper stretchers for stability just like this. very nice. even is AZ temps using a bit of slotted screw holes would allow some wood movement and countersink and washers and large screws to grab that size top. Hope to see this one posted. And I don't see this one having to buy super power tools to make, the basics can do this (did you want to hear that or you want a reason to buy that reasonable drill press ?)


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## tmasondarnell (Jul 2, 2013)

Travis,

I was in the same boat as you. M&T scared the crap out of me.

I worked around having to do them, but finally put on my big boy wood working pants and did them for the first time.

I used my table saw and plunge router-and a lot of scrap pieces.
learned a lot by fixing and working through my issues.

One of the biggest things I learned is that the only part of the M&T that needs to look good is the joint line after you mate them. The rest of it does not need to look perfect. All of the strength of the joint comes form the glue surface on the sides of the tenon and the sides of the mortise. Those are the only two surfaces you need to focus on. It does not matter if the length of the tenon is shorter then the depth of tenon, etc.


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## TravisN (Jan 15, 2019)

> Travis, wow. what a great table design. And you have so many replies. Soooo. get some pine. pick a way to practice your choice of making what you want for a joinery and go practice on scrap wood. Ash will be great as a hard wood and sanding to fit or shaving to fit with a chisel easier than the soft wood, when you do the final one. I like the long runner between the legs and that is more like a half lap since you want it to disassemble, and a screw underneath. I would guess that your design has one or two upper stretchers for stability just like this. very nice. even is AZ temps using a bit of slotted screw holes would allow some wood movement and countersink and washers and large screws to grab that size top. Hope to see this one posted. And I don t see this one having to buy super power tools to make, the basics can do this (did you want to hear that or you want a reason to buy that reasonable drill press ?)
> 
> - oldguy2


Thanks! I hope it will turn out well! I was going to start it soon before the Phoenix temps rise too much, but my saw injury yesterday is going to keep me out of it for a bit  I had just ordered a bunch of sharpening gear, too, to get my chisels into shape.


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## TravisN (Jan 15, 2019)

> Travis,
> 
> I was in the same boat as you. M&T scared the crap out of me.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the tips! Hopefully I'll have gained your confidence in the near future


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