# When Intelligent Discussions Go Wrong....



## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

As the initiator of a thread here a year ago regarding divergent viewpoints, there was so much profanity, name-calling and personal attacks in the responses that the whole thread was ultimately removed. The ironic thing was that it started out as a commentary of my observations of reasoned viewpoints getting trashed by some folks whose words failed them. Their only tool of choice was foul words and personal attacks. This, oddly and unintentionally, proved exactly what my point was in the original thread.
Now, in my local paper today, is an article written by a selfless advocacy officer of a prominent non-profit mission, who wrote, " * A study conducted by the Ohio State University provided convincing evidence that a majority of people tend to read articles that already agree with opinions they hold, and not much else." "If they did read articles which ran counter to their views, they would balance it by reading articles that confirm their opinions. They don't want their views challenged by seriously considering any other viewpoints*." The above writer approached this subject based on his efforts to re-educate people who held prejudicial views on the subject of homelessness, but I appreciate his look into the dynamics of the human behaviour in a wide range of topics. 
I have been mystified by the callous responses I've received on hot-topic events related to the woodworking hobby in general. Though indeed I am pleased by the empathetic responses that let me know I am not alone, I cannot help but question what motivates a person to declare that my concerns are unfounded.
I guess it flips back to the quoted text above, where people dislike having their personal views challenged by an objective, well reasoned opinion that is contrary to their own, or perhaps simply don't want to hear troubling news of any sort.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

I've learned one thing about about commenting ,don't tell others how to or how not to comment.


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## dfletcher (Jan 14, 2010)

I don't know, I am always reading about things that contradict my viewpoints in different areas. I try not to tell someone they are wrong, but I am not always good at that.

As far as differing viewpoints, sometimes those differing viewpoints have already been dealt with for a certain person and they try to explain why they don't hold to it anymore, other times, it is just that someone wants to argue, they think it makes them sound smart, i guess. JMHO


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## Padre (Nov 5, 2008)

I believe people have a tendency to have a more 'knee-jerk' reaction to posts online. They read the post and (almost always) immediately post a response. Sometimes in anger, sometimes when angry at something else, or under the influence of life. I believe this leads to some responses being posted that, in normal life, would not be said in a personal discussion.

I believe that this capability to anonymously and instantly reply leads to people saying things they might not say if they took time to consider, re-read and then reply. Like 'my mama always used to say', never write a letter in anger. Wait 24 hours.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

Thanks for the great replies, the insights of other LJs is always appreciated!


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

I agree with Chip…. When someone posts something that goes against your already-held opinion, it's much easier to respond with a quick negative reply online than it is face-to-face. How many people get into a heated political debate with a stranger at a cocktail party? Most of us will just smile and nod, and excuse ourselves from the conversation if we strongly disagree with someone's point of view. But let someone post something online, and it's easy to tell them what a brainless idiot they are. 

I also agree with the person you quoted. People are much more interested in reinforcing their beliefs than in having them changed. To change your mind requires admitting to yourself that you were wrong, did not have all the facts, or had not considered every angle. That goes against human nature. So we tend to hang around with people who agree with us, read things that are in line with our own thinking, etc.

I enjoy a good debate. You explain your position on an issue, I explain mine…. we go back and forth making points and counterpoints until we either reach a common ground, or agree to disagree. The point where it usually turns contentious is when one person states or implies that the other person's position has no merit. There is a big difference between "I don't see it that way" and "You are full of crap". But too many folks use those phrases interchangeably.


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## tyskkvinna (Mar 23, 2010)

Also, Charlie, I think people are often quick to say somebody's opinion is wrong, especially when it comes to a subject where there really is not a right answer. The difference between saying "Your opinion is different and not compatible with mine" is worlds away from saying "Your opinion is wrong".

Also, the inability to truly understand tone has caused so many problems on the internet.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Lis, yes… you said it a little better, but that is exactly what I was talking about.


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## lilredweldingrod (Nov 23, 2009)

Just as in politics, we have the liberal far left and the conservative far right, and never will they meet. Then you throw in a contrary personality…......This just humanity in action.
Of course I always try to set the example of perfection…..lol We just gotta love each other, warts and all. Rand


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## Eric_S (Aug 26, 2009)

I have to admit, I have written nasty comments before in online posts(local news comments). But they have been in response to other posts that contain bigotted racist views and nothing more. I don't take those lightly at all. I can't stand when people post that kind of crap. We all have to learn to at least co-exist in this tech-savy ever shrinking world. What I have found helps though if you are really angry and want to write a nasty reply is this.

When you are mad and need to vent, it really does help to let it out by writing or blogging, but that doesn't mean you should post it. If you have to write angry letters, write them, wait on them for a day and then delete them. 9 times out of 10 you'll feel better just by writing the nasty letter, but instead of sending it delete or rip it up.


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## miserybob (Jan 24, 2010)

It is my experience that people will always overestimate how 'reasoned' and 'objective' their own opinions are.

Additionally, it seems today that we are in a state of 'tactical' disagreement… you can see this all the time in political arguments where one Party or another is doing *exactly *the thing that was previously advocated by the other side, and yet that side cannot agree - it undermines their tactical disagreement with the other Party.

I think that's slightly different than 'not wanting their views challenged' - they just don't want their 'side' to 'lose', if those words have any meaning at all in this context.


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## robertp (Jun 6, 2010)

I have to confess that I have been a contrarian for no reason other than to be contrary. It isn't a rational thing, and I am almost unaware that I am doing it, but sometimes, if you tell me its white I'll argue that it's black while at the same time if you tell me its black I'll say it's white. I don't think I am alone in this strange behavior.

It seems to me that the only way to keep things civil in blogville is to be self critical and try to efface your own ego. This can be pretty difficult as there is such a drive in us to win or at least have the last word that it is easy to get caught up in some pretty pointless yelling.

I try to not misinterpret the intent of others writing but I admit that I do have something like a primal desire to be outraged. I think this is pretty universal and we should be on guard against our own worst tendencies.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Robert, I know what you mean. Sometimes, when people seem TOO sure of their position, it just makes me want to argue the other side (even though I might really lean the same way as them).


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## rance (Sep 30, 2009)

Lis touched on the lack of tone. But add to that… body language, gestures, lack of ability to express one's self through the written word, and almost total anonymity. I've been guilty of this myself. Have you ever observed a discussion on the web that could be mirrored in person?


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## Gene01 (Jan 5, 2009)

You all are wrong!
My opinions are based of proven facts!
i.e., The sun revolves around the earth and the earth is flat. 
Butt joints are always best.
Always buy the cheapest tool.
The moon landings were fake.
etc…...
Wishing LJs had emoticons.


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## m88k (Apr 26, 2010)

But if you disagree with me, you ARE wrong.

Far more fun than arguing with an overly-sure person is questioning them. Don't take any stance, but effectively take every stance that's not their's. While it sounds juvenile, it forces them to actually support their viewpoint rather than attack yours. Or devolve to calling you names, which makes cocktail parties all the more fun!


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## hairy (Sep 23, 2008)

My mind is made up, don't confuse me with facts!


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## CampD (Nov 8, 2008)

My Opinions are FACTS!!!
Seriously, what Lis states rings true, everyone has an opinion, its what makes us all different.
Add to this, the coldness of this media and texting = empty feelings.


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## Gene01 (Jan 5, 2009)

Maybe I'm thick skinned, or unaware, or just plain dense, but I really have not encountered what I would consider boorish behavior on this forum. 
Some spirited debate, but nothing out of line.
Everyone here seems to be polite, sensitive and respectful of other's and their opinions.
Well, except for A1Jim and Charlie, that is. Hehehe.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Sorry Gene it's just the way I am mean and ornery. LOL


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Gene, shut up you $%%^&$!


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## Kindlingmaker (Sep 29, 2008)

I love debates! I am having one right now, (with myself), on whether yellow glue has stronger holding power under high or low temperatures versus humidity verses altitude and in what part of which hemisphere on short or long grain Gymnosperms and Angiosperms woods. Everything else I ignore.


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## Nomad62 (Apr 20, 2010)

I don't really know what it is you are talking about, I've never been wrong. Lol!


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## freidasdad (Mar 22, 2010)

I thought I made a mistake once…but I was wrong.


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## mike85215 (Oct 16, 2009)

Poopiekat I understand what you are saying and believe that it sounds logical. For myself I have found that I am one of the most opinionated people that I know, I have an opinion on just about everything and if I don't well then give me a few minutes and I can come up with one. Also to make matters even worse MY opinion is the one that is always correct !
Seriously though, I find no reason as to why people shouldn't have an opinion, I also believe that is each person's responsibility to have a reason as to why they have a certain opinion.
Yes we can disagree, but it should always be civil….there is no reason whatsoever for it to turn otherwise.


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## BTKS (Nov 30, 2008)

I cannot recall the exact percentage, but only approximately 7 or so percent of verbal communication is the word. Tone, inflection, body language, etc. account for the rest. As for written communication, it must be significantly higher. My point is what is written and what is understood can be vastly different. This can explain confusion about similar but differing opinions. This does NOT explain away rude, obnoxious behavior and ill tempered postings. Some people are just jerks and use the anonymity of the inter-net to be that way.
Just my rambling, BTKS

My apologies, I went back and read a couple replies I had skipped. Rance hit on the same point I was making.


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## GaryC (Dec 31, 2008)

My opinion = 1/6000000000th of the world's opinion


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## lilredweldingrod (Nov 23, 2009)

My mind is made up! I will not be confused with facts!

And Gary your opinion is over rated. There are over 6.8 billion people on earth. lol Rand


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Let's face it folks, we are all different - except maybe twins. Our differences are the reason we have different choices, ideas and thoughts. You don't have a clone (as yet) in this world, so you can expect as lilredweldingrod states, to interact with 6.8 billion other Individuals. You won't find a perfect match in all those, so you must compromise and try to get along with everyone.
Some folks on LJs have found true bliss with people who have opposite poles. A1jim, Charlie, Karson, Grizz and many others LJs who are optimistic types have a wonderful marriage because they married Pessimists. Go figure!


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## wseand (Jan 27, 2010)

Its all good until you start to disagree with yourself. If you start to cuss yourself out then it is time to put the tools away and seek professional help. I try not to take things too personally, I don't have time in my life for juvenile behavior. That being said I have found myself getting a little twisted on the internet. Usually it is like Eric said because someone feels it necessary to make racial, bigoted, slanderous comments.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I have read or heard of studies like the one mentioned. That is what the specialized TV news channels feed on; supporting the beliefs of their viewers rather than reporting the facts.


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## wseand (Jan 27, 2010)

I have read a lot of review or comments on the local news channels web pages they can get real brutal. The news here in El Paso report more hearsay than facts. The immigration debate/hate is real bad here being so close to the border, anything they can use to fuel the fire they do.


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## Magnum (Feb 5, 2010)

The CRUX Of It All: "I guess it flips back to the quoted text above, where people dislike having their personal views challenged by an objective, well reasoned opinion that is contrary to their own." ON THE NOSE!!!

As for "Intelligent Discussions"? The word "Intelligence", to me at any rate, defies any kind of Meaningfull Definition. Does it mean that your IQ is Higher or Lower then mine? That one of us is "Smarter" than the other? Does "Common Sense" Factor in somewhere?

If "Intelligence" enters into a "Discussion" with "Common Sense" what will be the outcome? Anything? A "Logical" Conclusion?

Not to say that you cannot possess both "Intelligence" AND "Common Sense". Therein lie the "Diamonds" amongst the "Lumps Of Coal"!!

Rick


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## daltxguy (Sep 7, 2007)

So if human nature is to ignore viewpoints counter to their own, how are they formed in the first place?

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that every human is in a world they've made up and none are based on facts or the truth. Even when given the same information, two people will have divergent interpretations and recollections about it.

On the other hand, we are probably more influenced by what we hear than we probably imagine or admit. We can be programmed to believe something even if it isn't true( "The big lie" - repeat something often enough and people believe it is true). It's called propaganda and it's used everyday by politicians, advertisers, newspapers. OMG!

If you argue with someone about a viewpoint, you are probably not arguing with them but rather arguing against the programming which they've been subjected to. But people hold on to it as if it was their own truth. I doubt many people have much rational thought behind their viewpoints.

Best to acknowledge that we have different viewpoints and understand where those might have come from. If you truly want to sway opinions, become a politician, an advertiser or own a newspaper or magazine or run a big corporation.

Btw, my truth is learned from other sources - please don't challenge me on them


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I have been an observer of humanity all my life. I have a lot of friends with shooting and military backgrounds. Their minds are made up before the question is posed. No quantity of facts will change their opinions. I think I started to notice this in my 30s or early 40s. By that age, people are stuck in their mold for the most part. I think it is an unwillingness to admit they are or have been wrong.

I have been through this process myself. It is hard to find that you have been a fool and trusted an organization such a Merrill Lynch which is supposed to be one the highest rated money management firms in the world. When I started researching what they had done to my wife and I, I concluded they were either totally incompetent or criminal. Eliot Spitzer, Atty Gen of NY, identified them as the 2nd worst criminal organization in the financial industry. Only Soleman Smith Barney, Div of Cit-group was the only one worse. What is even harder to take is there being very few places to turn that are honest in a corrupt industry. With Spitzer identifying 15 or the 17 largest brokerage houses as corrupt, you can see why there are so few options.

When he finished with the brokerage houses, he went after the squeaky clean mutual fund industry. He brought down some multi-million dollar firms in that exploit, including Putnam and Strong. I just Googled the Strong fund situation. This is what I found: "Once the Strong Capital plan is finally approved, individual investors probably will see relatively small payments of $100 or less, said Morningstar Inc. fund analyst David Kathman. He pointed out that the restitution in this case is unlike some of the more recent, massive fraud cases on Wall Street where investors lost most or all their money."

Isn't that just hunky dorry!! Strong fund investors will get $100 back of thousands invested instead of loosing it all! ;-)


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

Thanks, everyone!!
*m88k: * WOW… what you said about people's misbehavior toward somebody stating their opinion.. is priceless.
A month ago, I started a thread about 'piracy'...somebody lifting my projects right out of LJ and posting them on his own site…and the LJs who came forward to tell me it was no big deal was utterly astounding. 
*Topa: * thanks for your observations regarding inflexible people!


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## Gene01 (Jan 5, 2009)

This thread is extremely entertaining. Thanks Poopiekat! But, I've gotta quit reading it. You guys and gals are making me THINK.
Can't have that, now. Makes my head hurt. Plus, Charlie insulted me.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

Thanks*, Gene* but I know you're thick-skinned enough to joust with the best of us! I appreciate yours, and everyone's comments! A tip of the hat to *daltxguy*.


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## Gene01 (Jan 5, 2009)

Yep, poopiekat, it was posts like yours and daltxguy's that make me think. Horrors! I thought I could escape that activity when I retired! Guess not. Need more Scotch, to do that.


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## Dez (Mar 28, 2007)

I have noticed (on the part of a VERY few here AND my wife) one thing that leads to anger in discussing differing opinions. 
That one thing that seems to always raise someones hackles is that after they have expressed their point of view and you do not agree!
My wife in particular seems to think that by expressing her view she will convince me to believe that she is correct and cannot understand why I still disagree, thus making her angry! :0
As I laughingly told my BIL the other day when he squawked about me not supporting him when the rest of the family was teasing him (he accused me of jumping ship), I was never on board YOUR boat!

We are all at sea in our own little boats and only occasionally does someone actually ship out in the same boat with us! I have heard that it take about 7 years to correct an incorrect belief in the public arena. (refering to *daltxguy's* post)


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## TheDane (May 15, 2008)

25 years ago, I worked for a guy who was a 'student of conflict'. You could never be quite sure what his true opinion was on an issue, so you had to stake out your position very clearly and concisely.

He used to brag that he 'lost' more arguments than he won, but I think in actuality he orchestrated debates to make sure he drew the best out of every member of our management team. In a lot of cases, without realizing it, we were reinforcing the decision he might might have mad eon his own without any input … or maybe not?

I confess that I occasionally respond to online posts with some pretty acidic comments, but I always stop short of insulting someone's intelligence or their parentage.


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## Magnum (Feb 5, 2010)

"When Intelligent Discussions Go Wrong".

See My Comments Above RE: "Intelligence" Whatever that is. POST: "Difference between a Hobbyist and Artist -an ethical discussion." Was that Post suppose to be an Intelligent Discussion? Judging by most of the Comments "Did It Go Wrong." OR…. was it not worth discussing in the first place.

The Author Bowed out with…... "I think everyone is hung up on my definition of hobbyist and artist, which is my bad, and the point I was attempting to make is lost in translation. I am not going to post any more comments or rebuttals on this particular thread."

I'll leave you to come to your own conclusions about that "Intelligent Discussion." If that's what it was suppose to be?


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## Magnum (Feb 5, 2010)

Yep! Just like Indigestion. Every now and then I show up. This "Intelligence thing" defies ANY Logical Definition!

You're right it's to deep or SHALLOW for a Woodworking site.

Thanks for the "Cool" Mr G. Livingston …LOL…

Ric


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## WoodenSoldier (May 3, 2010)

One of the reasons I enjoy Facebook is because of all the different view points of friends and acquaintances that it displays. Over the years I've met a lot of people from different backgrounds with very diverse opinions. It's interesting to see the type of articles/links/quotes that some people will post. 
But what I always get a kick out of is when they post something to one extreme and then get bent out of shape when somebody counters them. Its as if they hadn't considered that every one of their friends didn't have the same opinion.

Personally, I enjoy a little bit of debate and I like to see what "the other side" is saying.


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## stefang (Apr 9, 2009)

I find that most of the people on this site are very courteous and very kind too. Those who don't have sound arguments or aren't able to express their thoughts well, sometimes become frustrated and resort to anger and sometimes verbal abuse. Debating and negotiating require a great deal of mutual respect between the parts and always within a mannerly context. However, many people are untrained and/or unskilled in this area, so I think when situations like this arise they should be defused by cutting the offenders a little slack.

As said above most just want their own views reinforced and they aren't really wanting to be challenged. Especially on LJ which is more about sharing than criticism and debate. I personally think that most of us know about the weaknesses in our designs and craftsmanship, but we are just looking for positive encouragement rather than all the bad points being aired.

I do think it would be great though to have a dedicated place where we could post our projects when we wanted open criticism. A place where the good points would be in the back seat and the bad points discussed. there are a lot of highly gifted woodworkers out there who I personally would appreciate guidance from in order to improve myself.


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