# OK to glue built-in shelf to support cleat along width?



## TravisN (Jan 15, 2019)

Hi all,

I'm working on turning a small, 5×5 closet into an office space. I'm going to build some simple shelves into the walls. I was thinking of just attaching some cleats (maybe 1×4) to the wall to support the shelves. The shelves themselves will be 12×48/60 (one will be 60, and the intersecting one will be 48, forming an "L" across two walls). I thought I would use glue and brad nails on the long edges, but I'm not sure what to do about the wide edges. I doubt brad nails would interfere with wood movement too much, but I also don't know if that would be strong enough to support flatness once the shelves start to carry a load. Stronger would be glue and braid nails, but then glue could interfere with wood movement. What would you suggest?

Obviously this is only an issue if I use solid wood for the shelves, which I'm considering because solid wood is stronger over a long span.


----------



## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

5' is a long shelf that definitely needs support.

The cleats are fine, 1×2's are adequate, as well as along the front edges.

Definitely do not glue them to the wall cleats, but definitely to the front edge support. You may think you'll never take them out but regret it later. Nails are ok but I would screws.

I wouldn't worry at all about wood movement in a 12" wide shelf.


----------



## John Smith_inFL (Dec 15, 2017)

^ what Robert said ^

.


----------



## TravisN (Jan 15, 2019)

Thank you Robert and John. By front edges, I assume you are talking about adding a lip, as demonstrated in Figure E of this article in Popular Woodworking?

There will be two levels of shelves. Would it significantly increase the strength if I placed a center support in between them (as in Figure H of the same document above)?

I'm trying to keep these both strong and slim, and recognize there are trade-offs.


----------



## CWWoodworking (Nov 28, 2017)

Do floating shelves out of plywood. No wood movement, strong, and better looking.


----------



## TravisN (Jan 15, 2019)

> Do floating shelves out of plywood. No wood movement, strong, and better looking.
> 
> - CWWoodworking


I considered plywood but worried that would not be strong enough for a 5' span. I plan to paint these to match the walls. Would BB plywood be appropriate?

FWIW, this is what I have in mind.


----------



## CWWoodworking (Nov 28, 2017)

Make then torsion boxes. Strong than real wood.


----------



## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

Sure allways strongest to have a center support, ideally a 3/4" thick ply shelf should be kept ti under 30".

For the front edging I typically use a 3/4×1 strip either butt glued or rabbeted.


----------



## Phil32 (Aug 31, 2018)

You haven't mentioned the expected load - reference books, brick samples?


----------



## CWWoodworking (Nov 28, 2017)

> Do floating shelves out of plywood. No wood movement, strong, and better looking.
> 
> - CWWoodworking
> 
> ...


The only place I see that would need something is the end of the run. I would put an end cap like a cabinet. Should be enough support.

I like the look from the bottom side with floating shelves. cleaner. Strips screwed to wall With shelf on top looks clunky to me


----------



## TravisN (Jan 15, 2019)

> Sure allways strongest to have a center support, ideally a 3/4" thick ply shelf should be kept ti under 30".
> 
> For the front edging I typically use a 3/4×1 strip either butt glued or rabbeted.
> 
> - Robert


Yes, since these are 5' I worried that would be too long for plywood, hence my consideration of hardwood. That would take considerable more work…is there a way to make BB plywood work (e.g., center support like an I-beam), or is just too far?



> You haven t mentioned the expected load - reference books, brick samples?
> 
> - Phil32


Fair point. I'm trying to keep my options open since I imagine these will be in place for a long time, and perhaps even a subsequent home owner. In the short term, we are looking at printer, paper, some arts and crafts supplies. But, since it is an office, I would also want something capable of handling books, just to future-proof.


> The only place I see that would need something is the end of the run. I would put an end cap like a cabinet. Should be enough support.


Are you saying to build a cabinet "wall" on the two ends to rabbet the shelves into? How would I handle the "L" juncture?



> I like the look from the bottom side with floating shelves. cleaner. Strips screwed to wall With shelf on top looks clunky to me
> 
> - CWWoodworking


I agree floating shelves look better, but they are also thick since you have to have a top and bottom and something substantial in the middle for them to "float" on. In this small space, I fear 3-4" thick shelves will be too much.


----------



## CWWoodworking (Nov 28, 2017)

1/2" top and bottom + 1-1 1/4" middle= 2-2 1/4".

I would think you would be 1.5" or more with cleat+front. So not that much difference.


----------



## TravisN (Jan 15, 2019)

> 1/2" top and bottom + 1-1 1/4" middle= 2-2 1/4".
> 
> I would think you would be 1.5" or more with cleat+front. So not that much difference.
> 
> - CWWoodworking


This is the way I know to do a floating shelf. Basically build a frame into the wall and then slide the top and bottom sleeve over the frame (basically a torsion box). Like this:









Is this what you are recommending? Just use 1-1 1/4" material for the frame?


----------



## oldguy2 (Jun 29, 2014)

Hi. I have used plywood but added a pine front edge. 1.5 inch and cut a rabbit and glued it on so the ply could not flex under the load. Mine did not flex under enclyclopedias. But length and supports are a factor. Your span is very long and only supports at the ends for a 5 foot. So either more supports or No Printer as you said. Wow a printer is weight. Books will get there. And I live with a Pastor…I know about books and loads. Lets add some supports. Make a front edge for looks not an iron on strip. Overall the closet work area looks good how about fan and trash area, and a foot stool? How is the power line to there.?


----------



## CWWoodworking (Nov 28, 2017)

Run the supports long way.

So your front would be 2.25", 2 supports on the inside, and 1 on the wall. With support on each end, this will be strong enough without looking too thick.


----------



## TravisN (Jan 15, 2019)

> Run the supports long way.
> 
> So your front would be 2.25", 2 supports on the inside, and 1 on the wall. With support on each end, this will be strong enough without looking too thick.
> 
> - CWWoodworking


Do you mean like this?


----------



## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

> Yes, since these are 5' I worried that would be too long for plywood, hence my consideration of hardwood. That would take considerable more work…is there a way to make BB plywood work (e.g., center support like an I-beam), or is just too far?


You can simply add a triangular shaped bracket in the middle of the shelf.

KISS! This is a closet!


----------



## Sark (May 31, 2017)

Another thought: My guess is you need about 2.5" tall continuous support underneath the front of the shelf to support the load and keep the shelf from sagging over the 5 feet. Instead of placing that support under the shelf, attach it to the shelf as a lip. (Glue and pin nail) So you have a 2 1/2" lip attached to a 3/4" thick plywood , and the difference of 1 3/4" is what you would see underneath the shelf. Which would look good. Not too thick, and very strong.

Along the wall run a 1" ledger board or, for greater symmetry, run a 1 3/4" ledger on the wall, and you have the appearance of a shelf that is supported by a 1 3/4" support all the way around.

One treatment for the corner is to have an angled bracket that extends at 45 degrees from the wall. The two shelves are then mitered at 45 degrees and join over the bracket.


----------



## CWWoodworking (Nov 28, 2017)

> Run the supports long way.
> 
> So your front would be 2.25", 2 supports on the inside, and 1 on the wall. With support on each end, this will be strong enough without looking too thick.
> 
> ...


Yep


----------

