# Saws, using collecting, cleaning and buying-Take 2



## donwilwol

Just talking saws

Following some of the plane and other tool threads has been pretty interesting and informational for me. My thought, why not a saw dump.


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## summerfi

Thanks for thread #2 Don. The tradition continues….


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## diverlloyd

Thread # 2 very nice.


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## bigblockyeti

I didn't have much to say on the last thread but I learned alot and hope to continue here as well.


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## theoldfart

Wow, this loaded fast! Needs a saw pic


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## KentInOttawa

Remember to "Watch" Pt 2. We don't want to lose the regulars.


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## summerfi

Richardson Brothers 12" carcase saw. Based on Phil Baker's 2012 type study of RB backsaws published in The Gristmill, the date is c.1871. This saw falls in a period of years that RB did not stamp the spine. The saw probably once had an etch. It has the old style flying eagle medallion that is so cool.

*Before*










*After*



















I still learn something from just about every saw, and I learned from a mistake on this saw. The handle, which is otherwise in excellent condition, had a crack through the cheek just above the medallion. I glued it with Titebond and easily pulled the crack together so it was nearly invisible. I assumed it would be fine, but when I assembled the saw and tightened the screws, the crack popped open again. On another saw a few years ago I solved this problem by making a cut in the edge of the cheek with a slitting saw and gluing in a piece of veneer with the grain oriented 90 degrees to the handle grain. That crack has held very well, but due to the shape of this handle and location of the crack, that wasn't very feasible. What I did instead was drill vertical holes from the top of the "finger" on the handle that span the cracks in each cheek. Then I inserted pieces of brass threaded rod coated with epoxy into the holes. That seems to be working fine; the cracks did't pop open this time when I assembled the saw. However, my mistake was that I didn't clamp the cracks together while the epoxy was drying. So it still looks like there are cracks in the handle, even though the cracks are filled. At a minimum I should have used a colored material to fill the cracks, but clamping them shut would have been better. They're pretty small, so I didn't think they would be visible. Live and learn.










I really like this medallion.


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## bandit571

There is a Richardson Brothers saw in my shop..









Has a smaller bolt down at the bottom…









And at the top…

Can try to dig it out for a better look, if anyone wants..


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## HokieKen

Well I don't have much in the way of saws but I do have a Fridge in my shop ;-)









Edit: For those who don't get the word play, that saw was made by LJ The Fridge ;-P


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## Sunstealer73

Here's my first restore. It's done except for sharpening. I have everything except a set, but should have it soon I hope. It will be 7 ppi rip.

Before:









After:


















Faint etch, but still pretty readable:










Medallion:









I'm dating this one in early 1900's, pre-1911? Does that sound about right?

I have it's crosscut mate on the way, another D8 filed 8 ppi. It supposedly has the 5 patent dates stamped in the handle, so earlier than this one, maybe 1870-1880's for those?


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## putty

Bob, you are on a roll… nice work!


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## theoldfart

Sunstealer, i'd say 1910 to 1917 based on the etch and medallion.


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## Sunstealer73

Thanks, just realized I have the medallion 90 degrees off, gotta fix that tomorrow.


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## summerfi

That looks really nice Sunstealer. Good work.

Putty, yeah, I've been posting about a saw a day lately. There will be a little break before the next one. It's in process though.


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## BlasterStumps

I'm thinking only a slight turn counterclockwise, like maybe 12 to 15 degrees would be where I would try for. Where the square part will fit in the hole.

Nice looking saw. 
Mike


> Thanks, just realized I have the medallion 90 degrees off, gotta fix that tomorrow.
> 
> - Sunstealer73


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## bearkatwood

I got my new vise put together and like it so far.



















I think I am going to like it a lot more than that old hand screw, thanks for the push to get it done.



















I will probably cut the threading back a bit, and make a little longer handle, but I am happy with it.

Sunstealer, that turned out very nice, the etch is a lot better than I have seen on some.

Dang, I need a fridge in my shop. You all are starting this new thread out nice.

Bandit, that bolt configuration is interesting and they really let that sucker in, what are you plans on it?


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## bandit571

Have too many Disstons right now…the Richardson Brothers saw and a few Atkins saws are "extras" no real plans for them..


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## bearkatwood

"Have too many Disstons", nice problem to have. Well I like that design, the way they dropped the handle way down, the bolt setup, very interesting saw.
I have to admit I am lean when it comes to my vintage saws, but I am working on it. I should take stock of what I have and where I could improve. This has been a great forum for learning about the older saws, thanks all.


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## HokieKen

I like that vise a lot Brian. Looks handy for lots of stuff. The second pic looks like you have the bottle clamped in the jaws


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## bandit571

Too many Disstons? D-100 and D-112 ( I think)









Made 1 year apart..
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Have a couple of these..









And a few D-8s









And a few 7s


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## summerfi

I've made a picture inventory of my little vintage saw collection if anyone wants to take a look (link). I have some other saws, including some for sale on my website, but these are my keepers for the time being. They come and go as I continually upgrade.


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## Sawron

> Wow, this loaded fast! Needs a saw pic
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I can't get over how nice it is working with a wood frame hacksaw instead of the frickin' massive metal ones.

Recently turned two sections of an old paint scraper into a little dovetail and longer tenon saw while getting in some experimental/practical time fiddling around with a couple of sheet metal brake prototypes I was using to bend and flatten drawer slides into functional if janky looking backs. Both came from an unfortunately ugly set of dressers we were wanting to get rid of until I decided to just start making stuff out of them.








Find myself enjoying the tarnished surface of the scraper blades enough that while I'll end up replacing the backs with a more cleanly folded set, I don't even get an itch to try and polish up the blades past the point of being able to see at least a rough reflection of the material being cut since they're slim and clean enough to zing and buzz happily through whatever scraps I've grabbed to check the tooth/blade/spine/handle alignment.








The smaller handle is a chunk of an old cabinet door, larger is a dresser front, only the shiny "display" side bolts are as purchased, but the tenon saw has some of the bolts off the drawer handles, while the dovetail has a few mm trimmed off the male end to help snug everything together tighter.


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## woodcox

Thank you for sharing that, Bob. It was a great bedtime story.

That will work great, Brian. I can see why you like it mounted to the bench that way. I cut a tenon in on the bottom of the leg on my hi vise to clock it around in the wagon slot.


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## Sunstealer73

Got my saw set from TFWW today. Somax has apparently went out of business, or at least stopped making sets. Everyone is out of stock for them now, including TFWW. I must have bought one of their last ones.

Hoping to finish my saw vise soon and start sharpening.


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## JayT

If any of you want to drool over some vintage saws, check out today's post on Bad Axe's Instagram


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http://instagr.am/p/BtEQAIyhFH0/


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## bearkatwood

Just saw a post by Mark at Bad Axe on instagram.
Here is the post




































badaxe6
A real treat for this month's Bad Axe #sawsharpening seminar is having Mike Stemple and his legendary saw collection on hand. Many, many thousands of dollars worth of exceedingly rare saws from pre-Civil War through the Reconstruction era are on the bench today. #pantherhead #eaglehead #raresaws #badaxetoolworks


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## Sawron

Those panther and eagle and the wild zigzag saws are quite interesting, yes, thanks for de-instagramming it, as I'm not interested in allowing enough page chunks in umatrix for the site to show as more than a blank gray emptiness.


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## Brit

Here we go again. Aren't you guys fed up with old saws yet?

No? ... me neither. Keep up the good work all.


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## Brit

*Bob* - It did me good to look at your saw collection. Made me feel positively restrained and totally in control of my own affliction. )


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## summerfi

Oh Andy, it's just a few saws, and I can quit any time I want.


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## bearkatwood

Not an addiction 

Yeah, Bob I felt good about myself after seeing your batch, some beautiful ones in there. Doubt I will ever have half that many, but I can sure try. When designing my saws I pulled from history quite a bit, but not this thread of old hand saws, it was more based on the antique medical amputation saws that I liked the look of, but as I have learned and been educated by you fine people I have grown to have a fondness for these old saws as well and begun to incorporate some of those old features in my designs. Bob, you had a few that may have mimics in the future, thanks for sharing.


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## Sunstealer73

My saw set came in yesterday and I finished up the saw vise this morning. Time to try sharpening.

Saw vise (birch plywood with ash jaws):










Teeth shaped, not set or sharpened yet:










Forgot to take photos after setting and sharpening, I'd call this a success though:










It was pulling left at first (I had a little issue figuring out the saw set at first). I ran a diamond stone down that side a couple of times and it seemed to straighten it back up.

All these years thinking saw sharpening was some magic process that took years to learn. I know that completely reshaping teeth and filing crosscut are more involved than this, but I think I can handle it when the time comes. Thanks to everyone here for all the info in the saw threads and especially to Brit for his video!


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## summerfi

Wow, Sunstealer, you're off to a running start. That's excellent work.


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## Brit

I wish my first saw came out as good as that Sunstealer. Well done sir!


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## bandit571

A Small collection of "panel saws"










One at the top is an Atkins, bottom is a WS…the long one is 24" long, the one in front of it?









Disston with the 8 inside the "D", 10ppi.


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## Sunstealer73

Thanks guys. Pete Taran retoothed it for me, so I had a little head start because of that. I wanted to concentrate on the sharpening and setting part before worrying about things like cutting new teeth.

I'm using the Somax set. It gave me a little difficulty occasionally, almost like it wasn't deep enough, so the hammer would just push past the tooth instead of setting it. The tooth wouldn't move, but it would put a little flat on it where the hammer passed it. Is that common or was I doing something wrong? I started concentrating more and looking at it from a different angle and seemed to have a better time after that. It may have been I wasn't lined up exactly on the tip of the tooth?


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## summerfi

I have both Somax sets and haven't had a problem with them other than the soft anvil. Haven't had the issue you're describing. Do you have the gold or the blue Somax?


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## Sunstealer73

I've got the gold one, the blue is sold out everywhere. I'm pretty sure it was just me not getting it centered on the tooth right at first. I finally started leaning over the saw and looking back at it. I could see the alignment better that way.


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## Sunstealer73

I ordered a sharpened D8 panel saw from Mike Allen and got it yesterday. He did a great job in sharpening it for me at 8 PPI crosscut. I wasn't ready to tackle that myself yet. As a bonus, he found the patent date stamps on the handle when cleaning it up. That looks to date it around 1880 or so from what I've read. He said the steel seemed really hard on this one, it was rough on his files apparently. It cuts like a dream and the handle is really comfortable.










Crosscutting some poplar:










The pair of D8's I now have:










The handles look similar, but the panel saw handle is noticeably smaller when you place them side by side. The panel saw handle is also more comfortable to me. I'm not sure if it's the size difference or the 40-some years difference between when they were made. Either way, I'm really happy with both saws.


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## Sawron

Yeah, having a handle which kinda gently holds your hand in a natural pose instead of forcing you to hold it a certain way is great. I like the weird looking kinda small looking old handles you find on certain saws because you can tell they were trimmed down until they stop feeling like an artificial thing and turn into a purposeful extension of your hand.

I feel like the upper horn on your larger saw would annoy me, while I've got a few saws sitting around me with very similar shaping to your panel saw because it is the shape that ends up being a perfect fit for my thumb > index finger web.


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## bearkatwood

So I brought back to life the Disston Turkish saw. I messed with the hang just a smidge to feel better for use as a joinery saw. It is my goal for the year to tackle every saw on this page and possibly make them for sale.










So starting from the top, the Turkish saw was used for pruning supposedly, but there are accounts of it used in making tenons as well, this prototype was made with one of my dovetail blades, the original had 10ppi, I may try 12 on the next go round. My dovetail plates have 16 which might be a bit fine, not sure yet.










The handle has a strange feel at first, but you quickly adjust to it.










I used a chunk of Oregon Big Leaf Curly Maple for the tote.










The saw bolts are some that I found at a hardware store, I think they have them on amazon too.

All in all it turned out nicely. I may mess with the ppi and hang a bit more, but I think I have the size right.
I overlaid it with my dovetail saw and the hang seemed pretty close.





































I have had so many people ask if I make a pull saw, now I can say yes. 
Thanks everyone, hope you have a great day.


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## HokieKen

You forgot one important detail Brian. (I only know because I saw it on Instagram earlier ;-p)

Hint: What do the Turkish and Japanese have in common?


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## HokieKen

> You forgot one important detail Brian. (I only know because I saw it on Instagram earlier ;-p)
> 
> Hint: What do the Turkish and Japanese have in common?
> 
> - HokieKen


Edit: Never mind, you added that while I was typing


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## BlasterStumps

Really nice job on the Turkish saw Brian.


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## putty

Interesting BK,

Kinda looks like one of Max's creations.


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## summerfi

When William McNiece made this saw in the 1870s, he must have had a real he-man in mind. It's a beast. The 4 ppi plate measures 30-5/8" long by 8-1/8" wide, making it my biggest handsaw. I'd like to see the muscles on the man that could rip heavy timbers with this saw all day on a 10 hour shift.

*Before*



















*After*


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## summerfi

Remember the early 1850s Disston inchworm plate with H.D. stamped on the heel that I posted recently? It needed a handle, so I made a new one. The wood is Norway maple from a log I sawed on my sawmill almost 3 years ago.


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## theoldfart

Real nice Bob, espcialy the Norway maple handle.


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## bearkatwood

There was metal attached to that handle? I didn't notice. Geeze that thing was pretty Bob, stunning work.


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## Sawron

Oooh that maple looks all buttery and silky.


> Interesting BK,
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> 
> - putty


It's funny you say that because I made a weird little clay shaper/stencil/spudger/scraper tool for the missus which kinda sorta has a weird handle like that, no upper horn and only a hint of a lower one.









The weird little handle in the back is a rolling slicer for her clay next to the little hybrid-toothed dovetail saw I did for her minor loom teeth tweaking needs.








The handle was originally going to be for an attempt at a more flexible trim/door type of saw but I couldn't get the hang right, but then I used it for a saw slot float before deciding I like the float with no handle at all. Had it sitting there and on a lark I put a cutoff from a spine and piece of a scraper I had cut up in the blade slot and showed her, she loved it immediately but said not to tooth it because she wants it for clay working.

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Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content










Photos are blurry because I was standing over her yarn basket/looms at a weird angle.


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## putty

Nice work as usual Bob.

Love that norway maple!


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## Sunstealer73

What kind of grip do you use on that handle Bearkat?


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## bearkatwood

It seems there are two ways Sunstealer73, there is a forward and further back location that both feel comfortable. Not sure what the correct position is, this is kind of archeology to a point not having one of the originals in hand or knowing the proper technique
.


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## DavePolaschek

Brian, interesting archaeology.

Bob, I'm 6'5" and just about 3 bills, and that big McNiece kinda intimidates me. You decide you're selling it and I might just decide I have to give it a try, though.

That maple handle is gorgeous too, Bob.

Max, you make interesting things…


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## bandit571

Someone sent me a saw blade awhile back….needed a handle made…









Even had a pair of bolts..








Stashed away..









You can see the handle sticking up….part of a loaded up tool box that was sent up to N.B. Canada…


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## BlasterStumps

Sooo nice Bob. I think I see an ever-so-slightly round over on the top surfaces of the handle. How do you get it like that?


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## bearkatwood

Bandit, I really like the shape of that box, the last picture shows it off well, nice work. Like that top "table saw" pic too.
I agree Dave, max does make interesting things. Nice work all, Bob I would be happy to take some of that wood off your hands if you have too much, but what you did with it is way better than I could ever hope to.


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## summerfi

> Sooo nice Bob. I think I see an ever-so-slightly round over on the top surfaces of the handle. How do you get it like that?
> 
> - BlasterStumps


Mike, I shape my saw handles completely with rasps. The only power tools I use are bandsaw to cut out the profile, disk and drum sanders to refine the profile, drill press for the screw holes, and slitting saw in the router to start the blade slot. All the rest is hand work.



> Bob I would be happy to take some of that wood off your hands if you have too much
> - bearkatwood


Brian, when you come over we can talk about a trade. I have a good bit of the figured maple, but a lot of it is too thin for saw handles, and of course a lot of it isn't quarter sawn. I have a lot of other wood suitable for furniture too. And if you see any saws in my inventory that interest you, we can talk about those as trading stock for that item we've talked about.


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## Sawron

Too thin for a saw handle you say?

That's funny because I had a piece of walnut I was using on an early box which I never really felt satisfied with as it was super early dovetail joints. Was looking at it earlier, and when I put my handle pattern over it I was able to get the grain lined up properly so I decided to try an experiment and so far it's been working great. Though I wouldn't be comfortable giving it to someone who didn't understand the grain like I do.

The brass backed dovetail I posted earlier? Yeah, it isn't anywhere near as thick as you might expect.


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## CaptainKlutz

Any experts want to share an opinion on usefulness of this 18"hand saw?

https://www.toolusa.com/products/tz5812-ppp

Do you think it can cut dovetails?

Don't want to waste $1.50 + $8 priority mail shipping










HAHAHAHA
Yes, these are rhetorical questions. Just had to share something that made me chuckle.

Cheers!


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## summerfi

That's some interesting teeth on that saw.


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## bearkatwood

Do you think it could cut dovetails? 
Answer . YES
Do I think they would look like a drunk monkey with a weed-eater made them
Answer . YES

I think that might be a decent saw to throw behind the seat of your truck for cutting the odd branch while out, but I would rather go for what I have in my vehicle. I have a trail blazer break down buck saw and have used it to break down large logs on the beach. It breaks down and stores in the tube so the teeth stay sharp.









That is a gruesome tooth-line on that "Classic Wood Saw", not sure it would cut worth a darn.


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## bluekingfisher

> I got my new vise put together and like it so far.
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Hi, what hardware did you use for the handle and screw coupling? Is it a commercially bought item or shop made?
Cheers
David


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## bearkatwood

I found these vise screws on ebay







US!-1:rk:1f:1&frcectupt=true

For the criss cross I used 1/8"x1/2" aluminum bar stock and brass rod.
Thanks.


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## Sawron

Dang, I'm a fan of the cheapo Kobalt saws, rehandled their 15 inch aggressive tooth saw and use it happily. Noticed if I put a little flex on it and tap it with my little mini rubber head mallet it goes "pyeeeoooooooo" and sings, surprisingly nice temper for a sub $20 big box saw honestly.

Harshest teeth I have around here is my little slot float I freehanded because exactly perfect angles/spacing/etc is overkill when you're trying to scrape out a little extra depth up in a kerf and can't continue it through the top or rear of the slot:









Once the blade fits back there, grab the closest sized bit and eggbeater to work the spine back in place. Line up and drill the bolt holes then slot it all together. Seems like all this practice and experimentation is paying off in less time wincing about ever smaller errors.

This is a piece of steel snipped off of an old HP computer case, a derusted cut down scraper blade, the least dinged up chunk from the front of a drawer which my handle pattern fit across, and three annoying metal splinters which are bit by bit working back out of the side of my palm (no I have no clue why I went to catch the jagged sharp edged cutoff from the computer case when it came loose) plus some time and a couple of lightly rasped fingertips:

























Getting an urge to start ordering materials so I have some fresh stuff to play with instead of recycling nonsense into saws and other tools.


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## Sunstealer73

Hit some antique places today looking for some decent saws to restore. Struck out for the most part, a few with steel saw nuts. I got a laugh out of one booth though. They had one of those handyman style saws where the handle is in line with the blade. The tag said "Sears Craftsman Saw with RARE Plastic Handle - $50". I think it will be there a while!


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## BlasterStumps

Try your local Habitat Restore if there is one in your area. That is where I have found a few of mine. Most take a little fixing up but for me, that was the idea. Something to cut my teeth on : ) I even found a Disston "Victory" saw with a Rosewood handle there.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop

I might have a saw problem.


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## theoldfart

Uh huh!


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## summerfi

That's not a problem. That's a good start.


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## HokieKen

The saws look fine Smitty. I think the till is your problem ;-)


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## bearkatwood

The only problem I see is finding a way to stack them neatly


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## DavePolaschek

Maybe Smitty was referring to the fact that some of those saws need sharpening?


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## Sunstealer73

Got the saw till built for my tool chest this afternoon. Have space for 3 more saws, 4 if I relocate the dovetail saw and coping/fret saws.










HokieKen, where are you in SWVA? I'm between Abingdon and Bristol.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Okay, found a home for four of them. Thanks Ken!


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## HokieKen

I think I see a Disston thumbhole in there if you want to find a home for another one, I can help! ;-)

Sunstealer - I'm a little north In Roanoke. Got friends down your way in Marion and Tazewell.


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## Brit

> I might have a saw problem.
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There's no might_ about it Smitty.


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## KentInOttawa

Here's a video showing a practical use for the nib on a rip saw. Definitely new to me.


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## theoldfart

What saw problem?


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## Mr_Pink

I picked up a nice split-nut Jackson sash saw with a handle that appears unusual for a Jackson or Disston saw. I've only been able to find one picture of a Jackson saw with the same handle, and that search lead to the (apparently controversial) theory that some Jackson saws were not made by Disston. I thought I'd post pictures here to see if anyone has any insight.


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## theoldfart

I have one as well. It's been restored by Bob Summerfield and came with a 1874 Langdon mitre box.


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## summerfi

Phil Baker wrote a nice article on Jackson saws for The Gristmill in 2007. There were at least two origins for Jackson branded saws. The first was William Jackson of Monroe, NY who began making saws about 1820 and continued until about 1860. The latter date is about the same time that Disston began making a secondary line of saws branded Jackson. I don't know if there was any connection between the original Jackson saws and Disston's brand. I doubt it, but the timing is interesting. Disston continued making Jackson saws into the 1930s. According to Phil, one way of telling the difference between the two makers is the shape of the "J" in Jackson, although I have difficulty seeing it myself. It may be possible that both your saws are late William Jackson saws, but it is much more likely that they are the more common early Disston Jackson saws. They probably both date to the late 1860s - early 1870s. A google search shows other Disston-made Jacksons with a simple oval shaped handle hole, as well as many with the more traditional handle style used by Disston. They must have experimented with different shapes over the years.


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## theoldfart

If, and that's a big if, the saw I have did indeed come originally with the Langdon box than I'm inclined to believe it's a Disston Jackson. Langdon had a business relationship with Disston as well as Simonds though the Simonds did come later. This is all a SWAG on my part based on speculation.

Bob, any chance you have a copy of that article?

Edit: A close up of the spine stamp before restoration.


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## Mr_Pink

We have the same stamp in the spine, as well as the same handle. From what I can find online, the argument about the shape of the "J" is based solely on how much it curves upward at the bottom, which strikes me as an implausible distinction between brands. If the "D" could be entirely missing from the "WARRANTED" stamped on my early 20th-century Disston, it seems likely a small corner of an individual letter could also be missing. I would expect the stamps of different companies to differ in ways that couldn't be explained by a single minor flaw in the production process. That said, I haven't been able to find the article in question.

The handle shape seems more distinct to me, but it makes sense that Disston would experiment with different handle shapes on its second-tier saws.

FWIW, my initial impression is that this handle is more comfortable than the early 20th century Disston handle. (I can't compare it to an earlier Disston handle.)


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## bearkatwood

Congratulations to Erik Florip. He just showed up on the back of my Garrett Wade Catolog. 



























Way to go Erik, how cool.


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## HokieKen

That is completely awesome for Erik. Those are some attractive prices too!


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## bearkatwood

Pick up one to restore. I liked the handle shape on these, I am sure you guys could give me a good date on it possibly. 
It has a break on the horn and a hole in the metal at the toe, why do they do that? But over all I think it might make a decent saw.




























I don't do many restores, but seeing what you guys have been accomplishing I have been wanting to try it more. We'll see how this turns out. Any advice?


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## summerfi

Wow, that's fantastic for Erik. He's hit the big time. An accomplishment to really be proud of.

Brian, your No. 12 looks like its probably from the 1896-1917 period. I've learned a process for saw restorations through trial and error. Everybody does it a bit differently. I have no secrets, so if there's anything I can advise on, just ask.


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## bearkatwood

Well I guess in a nutshell where would I be going wrong here? 
*Take the saw apart
*naval jelly for the blade, 000 and 0000 steel wool to shine it up, not seeing much of an etch so don't know if that is worth trying to hold onto.
*Shine the bolts and return to correct position, Matt Cianci had a good tip in his dvd of using a block with numbered positions to get them back away right.
*The repair shouldn't be too tough(based on my woodworking experience, but I can see where that could be tricky. You can't run it over the jointer to get a flat there, all hand work.) but the question is how far to sand the handle back. 
*Reassemble, sharpen. What steps have you found that warrant extra attention and have tricky things that could be problematic?


----------



## summerfi

None of that is wrong, but there may be easier, better, or more efficient ways of doing things. And as I said, everybody does it a little different.

Plate - Few if any of the repeat saw restorers I know use Naval Jelly or similar. Abrasives are the preferred method, meaning sandpaper down to about 400 to 600 grit. As I recall, you have one of those horizontal drum devices, no? I'd use that first with sandpaper and finish with a Scotchbrite drum. I've talked about my method before of using the cheap HF abrasive wheels and SB drums. I still like it the best. Its cheap, quick, and does a nice job. It's the only method I've found that can clean out the bottom of pitting. I never use sandpaper anymore unless it's to clean off an etch. I don't find that steel wool is of much benefit on a saw plate.

Screws - I use a similar method of tracking screws as Matt, but I just poke them through a piece of paper or cardboard and then put them in a baggie. I may have half a dozen saws in progress at one time, so that helps keep them straight. I polish the screws with 0000 steel wool with them chucked in the drill press.

Handle - I spray most handles with oven cleaner to get off the grease, oil and dirt. After they are clean and dry I put oxalic acid on most of them to brighten the wood and get rid of any black stains from the steel. Then make repairs, then sand. One of the hardest parts for me has been getting an even color on old handles, and it's hard to tell what the color will be until you put the finish on. The oxalic acid helps a lot with that, but I still often use dyes or stains to achieve the color I want or to match light and dark areas. You'll have to decide whether to fill in any little nicks and dings in the wood or leave them. I use 2 or 3 different methods to fill them in. Many people put linseed oil on saw handles, but I NEVER do that. It turns the handles dark in time and it attracts dirt. I prefer a satin poly finish, and I usually spray it on with a rattle can, though I sometimes wipe it on. I put it on heavy with the handle lying flat, and then sand it back. This fills the grain and the little micro dings. I've recently been experimenting with shellac. It has the advantage of fast drying, it feels nice in the hand, but I find it harder to apply by wiping on. Haven't tried spray yet.

Those are a few tips that work for me. I'm sure you'll develop more. There are many ways to get the job done.


----------



## bearkatwood

I have had really good luck with a coat of spray lacquer and buffed down with steel wool, then waxed to a sheen for handles.
For the screws, that is roughly the same way I do mine, in a hand drill.
Matching colors comes pretty easy after doing restoration work and reproduction furniture for quite a few years. I like that acid trick though. 
The Metabo surface grinder has been a great investment. I use it all the time and it gets great results. I have used it to double taper handsaw plates and shine up dovetail plates quickly. Highly recommend it unless you have the knowledge and funds to get a large surface grinder like Erik has.
I am bogged down with orders still but hoping I get time to start restoring it. Thanks Bob for the tips, I may have some questions for you along the way.


----------



## bearkatwood

something I think would be really fun would be a replica. Making a saw that had the aged look of an antique. One of my favorite books is "Antique or Fake" By Charles Hayward. It would be so fun to make a replica that could fool em 
Something like this.









But not to sell of course, just to see if I could pull it off  hu hu. I'm not a crook, why? Wanna buy it?... insert evil laugh here. ***


----------



## donald_wa

Bob, I agree about the BLO. I have used spray lacquer and shellac(both rattle can). My latest method is to spray 2 thin coats of shellac and sand to tame the orange peel. Then I follow up with a French polish without the oil. I think the pad is the key.

Does Erik really make a saw with 160 TOI ?


----------



## ErikF

160 TPI- I think it would be a cruel punishment to make someone file a saw like that….and then set the teeth. Would look similar to sandpaper.

Thanks for the post Brian. It's cool to see something that I've made be for sale is a catalog.


----------



## DavePolaschek

Very cool, Erik! I use the halfback I bought from you regularly.


----------



## HokieKen

Congrats Erik. And don't worry, they replaced "160" with "15" on the website page for your saws. And who still gets print catalogs these days anyway? Well, other than Brian ;-)

It would be nice if they at least mentioned the maker's name in the listing though, huh?


----------



## ErikF

Thank you, gents.


----------



## Sawron

160 tpi… why would someone even say something so mean, don't they know we're people too?

I went the other way when I decided to try knocking the induction hardened teeth off a little camp saw I had (note: make sure you set up something to catch the teeth if you're snipping them off, PCHEW-PING-PTOW-KTING!) because I had a weird hankering for a little 6 inch rip cut table saw with huge scary teeth.

Behold, Yoda, a.k.a. My Little Green Friend:

















I used a swanson speed square to set the initial marks for the teeth so I'm thinking that makes it 8 tpi?


----------



## ErikF

Max,

Nice work on that saw. How many saws have you made now? It can get pretty addicting.


----------



## Sawron

Thanks, getting better at keeping tooth layouts even was the hardest bit, and I'm up over a dozen now I think.


----------



## bearkatwood

Quick question, does anybody have a foley belsaw ratchet bar with 16ppi they might like to sell?


----------



## Mosquito

I'll take a look Brian, I just bought a second retoother because of the ratchet bars, and it had maybe 8-10 bars, and I already had about half a dozen from my other retoother.


----------



## Sawron

I have no idea what that thing is, but it sounds like something to make cutting fresh teeth easier which might be kinda handy…









I dunno why I enjoy making little ones with enough stoutness to use so much, but I've heard if you can make something in miniature you can scale up as needed so it's good practice anyways.








Fun cutting the little handle shapes out too.


----------



## bearkatwood

Max, it is for cutting fresh teeth. This is a video of it in action.




Blackburn tools has print outs that you fold over the blade and then follow with your file, very helpful.
I made a saw with a very curved blade and had to figure out how to tooth it. I came up with a file holder that had a spacer and then a piece of metal the same shape as the file so I could register the holder in the previous gullet and cut the next tooth, works great for straight blades too.

When I first started I cut all my teeth by hand. A sewing ruler can help with the spacing or a hacksaw blade with the right number of teeth per inch you are wanting clamped to the blade can help you space things out right.



















Learning to get the teeth even in size, spacing and set is key to a good functioning saw. The guys on this forum have been a big help to me and I am sure they will help you along as well. Thanks Moss, appreciate it. Max, speaking of people that help, Moss was one that helped me figure out what all that toothing machinery was, so thanks again Moss. Now I am teaching saw making classes, who knew?


----------



## Sawron

I was using my speed square markings to register teeth for the 8 tpi (or is it 7 tpi?) cutting, and I like to keep bits of evenly toothed blade handy so I can clip them to a fresh piece of steel to match the tooth spacing.


----------



## Mosquito

Brian, I checked my stash and do not have any spare with 16ppi


----------



## bearkatwood

Ah, no worries. Thanks for checking.


----------



## bearkatwood

Hey Bob,
You get the one in front, don't get funny any ideas about my standall, ha.










It is a little rough around the edges but she runs good.




























I will get these cleaned up a bit and over to you when the roads aren't a death trap.

Looking forward to picking through your brain and maybe your till 
Thanks Bob


----------



## summerfi

Sounds good Brian. Might be several weeks the way this weather is going. February has been worse than all the rest of winter combined. I'll try to get the shop cleaned up a bit before you come over.


----------



## bearkatwood

Picked this up through ebay. Can't beat free shipping, so I snagged it.
Could somebody tell me if that 45 degree cut off the heel is standard or modified?


----------



## theoldfart

I've never encountered that angled heel before. I wonder if it broke on someone and they smoothed the edge?


----------



## bearkatwood

I don't hardly ever get that far back on my stroke, so no biggy.


----------



## Johnny7

> Could somebody tell me if that 45 degree cut off the heel is standard or modified?
> 
> - bearkatwood


It has absolutely been modified.

The D8 (and even the D-8s) actually have a slight concavity to the vertical edge beneath the handle.
Have a look at this one awaiting rehab:










By the way, that's where the pitch would have been stamped.


----------



## bearkatwood

Yep, what I thought. Didn't know if one year a designer got a bug up his rear or something. I will just call it a user inspired design feature and go with it.


----------



## ErikF

Brian,

Does that BeMaco have the original wheel? I've never seen one with a solid wheel.


----------



## KentInOttawa

A glowing review and recommendation for EricF's saws just out on youtube: 
View on YouTube


----------



## bearkatwood

video unavailable.

Erik, not sure, that is a good question. I will do some digging and see what comes up on this.


----------



## KentInOttawa

I'm not sure what happened. Try here: 






> video unavailable.
> 
> Erik, not sure, that is a good question. I will do some digging and see what comes up on this.
> 
> - bearkatwood


----------



## ErikF

Thanks for posting, Kent! I was happy when Joshua asked to check out some saws


----------



## bearkatwood

Yeah, that link worked. Very nice review Erik. Well deserved praise not doubt.
Thanks Kent for that.


----------



## DavePolaschek

That's another great review, Erik! Congratulations, and well deserved.


----------



## TheFridge

Bob, I use an artist paint brush and even it out by hand. If it builds up around a corner I'll lightly scrap the excess then go over it with a pad one last time.


----------



## BenDupre

Wow! Eric beats Lie Nielsen! Quite an accomplishment.


----------



## ErikF

> Wow! Eric beats Lie Nielsen! Quite an accomplishment.
> 
> - BenDupre


I really couldn't have asked for a better review. I've been chasing the affordable/quality saws for a number of years now, it feels good to be closing in on the goal.


----------



## bearkatwood

Closing in? ha.


----------



## theoldfart

Eric, congratulations. Well deserved.


----------



## donwilwol

Congrat's Eric. Your hard work is paying off!


----------



## summerfi

I made some French mitre saws. You can ready my project post here.


----------



## DavePolaschek

Hope I'll have a new saw in my shop soon!


----------



## Sawron

The french made some fascinatingly weird saws, took me a second to figure out exactly how it's supposed to be used… I think at least.

I've been thinking about the words of Horacio Pagani recently, when he was asked about whether he intended to engage in the horsepower/speed wars other hypercar manufacturers were having.

He paused for a moment and said 'it is like spending time with a beautiful woman, as a young man it may seem best to go faster, but now I see the fun in slowing down and enjoying the curves.'

That's a damn smart man, and I've been enjoying playing around seeing where I can work in some curvier shapes for comfort and simply for aesthetics.
















I love when you get something refined so it just cradles your hand seamlessly.


----------



## bearkatwood

So Erik, you were asking about that setter. It is not a BeMaCo, which might explain the different look. It is made by Bell Industries out of Eugene Oregon, who took over making them for BEMaCo. Anybody who owns one of these might be interested in the manual that was produced by BELL. It is an almost exact copy of the BeMaCo, with a few exceptions and the manual should work just fine for the BeMaCo as well. The differences are the solid pulley wheel, the foot peddle and a few other small things, but it seems to function just as well. This one will be heading off to Bob after I clean it up a bit.


----------



## putty

There is a BeMaCo on Ebay right now Priced at 70.00 or make offer
I don't know if it is complete or not.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/253650179911?msclkid=dd62468ea1f4105e56821ae55cd1f014


----------



## bearkatwood

It is missing the motor and foot pedal.


----------



## ErikF

Nice! Bob will be happy with it. I see they fixed the adjustment issue for the feed arms. This one looks easy to fine tune.

I hope nobody tries to buy that Bemaco listed on eBay. Aside from the missing motor, it's missing the hammer and one of the pawls.


----------



## bearkatwood

Yeah that thing is missing lots of parts, I wouldn't recommend buying it either.


----------



## Mr_Pink

Are any of you familiar with Wm McNiece & Son/Excelsior Saw Works? I just picked up this 26", 7 ppi handsaw. The medallion dates it to 1887 or later, but I haven't found other examples that look like this:


----------



## summerfi

McNiece was an early contemporary of Disston in Philadelphia, and his saws are highly sought after. Here is an article with some info.
http://www.craftsofnj.org/images/sitemedia/toolshed/Tool%20Shed%20No150-200802.pdf


----------



## Mr_Pink

Highly sought after meaning "stop cleaning now!" or "neat saw, have fun!"?


----------



## summerfi

I wouldn't hesitate to clean it up and restore to functioning condition. Just be sure to do it properly so as to not cause damage. Here is a link to a post about a McNiece saw that I restored recently. https://www.lumberjocks.com/replies/5183197


----------



## TheFridge

Bob, show us one of your beauties at work


----------



## summerfi

Fridge, at work? You mean they have to work?

I picked up this saw plate with no handle several months back. The etch says Vernon & Co., which is a secondary brand made by Wheeler, Madden & Clemson. The saw appeared in their 1871 catalog. I finally made a handle for it out of the figured Norway maple that I cut on my sawmill. The figure is accentuated by some amber dye, and it's almost overpowering.


----------



## bandit571

needed a saw to use with the GEM miter box….









Had this Disston D8 Panel saw. 10ppi. The 8 is inside the "D"....worked great


----------



## DavePolaschek

Gorgeous handle, Bob!

Got the splines installed in a box I was working on today, and the glue is drying now. Seems like overkill, but I may use my shiny new Scie à Recaler to trim them (nearly) flush with the box in the morning. I wonder how a teeny-tiny (4-6" long maybe?) version would work for flush-cutting splines, since miters and splines seem to be my go-to for box building.


----------



## summerfi

Would probably work fine with about a 16 ppi pitch, Dave.


----------



## theoldfart

Dave, action pics on the new tool please?


----------



## bearkatwood

I made up a slitting plane this week out of a chunk of mahogany with a stanley style handle and cocobolo inlay. Saves a little time getting the kerf cut in and is fun to use. I also had my new cnc delivered this week and eventually hoping it will do most of this work for me, but there is a steep learning curve for me on it ahead.


----------



## summerfi

That looks good, Brian. Nice job. I've used a round slitting saw in the router table for the last few saws, and that works very well too.


----------



## HokieKen

Takes some cajones to run a chunk of wood through a slitting saw spinning at router speeds. Hats off Bob!


----------



## summerfi

I turn the router down to its slowest speed, Ken. It's not a problem.


----------



## bearkatwood

I used to use a slitting saw on my drill press, but I had some issues with it. I will see what happens with the cnc and if it will handle it better once I get it all figured out. I think the one I have is low quality.
Bob, nice job on that handle. 
I saw this fun Jetsons looking Disston on ebay had to post the picture. Fun piece of Americana.









Hope everyone has a great day.

I recently received another thumbhole D8 that needs some attention. Hoping I can get clear of orders sometime and play around with restoring. You guys make it look fun. I am liking the spears and Jacksons and Disston #12s lately, you guys are getting me hooked on nice saws.


----------



## enjuneer

> I also had my new cnc delivered this week …
> - bearkatwood


Hi Brian,

What CNC machine did you purchase? I am close to buying a medium-sized manual mill for my shop, but would really like to have a ready-to-go CNC instead.

I have been lurking in the background listening to the banter for a while now and thought is was time to introduce myself. I am an engineer, machinist, and woodworker. I've built a few saws from scratch, including this pair with birdseye maple handles. These have plates that I bought from Ron Bontz a few years ago, but I've also cut my own from spring stock. I made the split nut screws on a manual lathe, but am in the process of setting up a Rockwell manual screw machine with a turret tailstock to speed things up. I also use a slitting saw on a mill to cut the kerf in the handle, finishing the cut with a hand saw that has been set to the final thickness of the plate.

Bob Page
In da U.P. of Michigan


----------



## DavePolaschek

> Dave, action pics on the new tool please?


How about a short video

And a non-action picture.










Edit to add: I think I'm going to need a similar saw, about 6" long for flush-cutting splines.


----------



## theoldfart

Thanks Dave.


----------



## summerfi

Welcome Bob Page. I've been following your work on the Facebook saw page, though I don't participate there. Glad to have you here. That pair of birdseye saws is fantastic.

Hey Dave, thanks for putting the video on Youtube. That's indisputable documentation that my saws will actually cut something. haha


----------



## theoldfart

Bob, your saws do cut wood, that's all i've used for the last few years.


----------



## DavePolaschek

> Hey Dave, thanks for putting the video on Youtube. That's indisputable documentation that my saws will actually cut something. haha


You're welcome, Kevin and Bob. FYI, the splines are red eucalyptus from AZ. Brittle nasty stuff to work with, and it dulls tools like crazy, but I stabilized the bit I made splines from, and that seems to make it better behaved. Huh!

Thing I just realized is that it's either a left handed push-saw (as in the video, because I was using my right hand to hold the phone) or a right-handed pull saw, as I will use it on the miter jack. Doesn't matter all that much to me, since I use tools both left and right handed, but I found it interesting. Are the teeth the same way around on yours, Kevin?


----------



## theoldfart

Dave, yes. Left handed push.


----------



## Mr_Pink

Here is another picture of the McNiece & Son handsaw before I cleaned it.









And a couple of pictures after cleaning. The handle had shellac on, which means I was able to clean and restore the old finish by wiping with thinned shellac.


----------



## theoldfart

Brian, did you forge your own holdfasts? And a second question. Is the handle laminated? I can see a difference in the grain paralleling the kerf.


----------



## summerfi

Mr_Pink, that's a solid clean up on the McNiece. It looks ready for another 100 years.

You guys are confusing me on the left hand - right hand thing. Kevin, on your video, it looks to me like you are cutting on a right hand push stroke. When I made the saws, I intended them to cut on a right hand push stroke too. This picture would seem to confirm that. What am I not understanding?


----------



## DavePolaschek

> You guys are confusing me on the left hand - right hand thing


Sorry, Bob. My miter jack mounts onto the bench with a hook such that it slopes to my left if I'm approaching it from the end. So if I'm pushing, the blade is on the downhill (left) side of the jack.

Maybe I'm using it backwards. Or maybe I'm supposed to be facing it sideways. But as I said, either way is fine with me because I'm continually switching hands to whatever works easiest based on the grain of the wood and what's cluttering my bench and being in my way. I'm a happy customer.

When trimming the splines, I was holding the saw overhand-ish with my left hand, similar to the grip I use on a wooden (coffin) smoothing plane. That seems to feel right to me when flush-cutting with the blade running horizontally and to the right side of the handle.


----------



## theoldfart

Bob, I'm probably more confused than both of you. Your pic is the same as my saw and I use both hands to saw on the jack. My jack is mounted on the right side end of my bench and I saw from right to left.. Does this help?


----------



## DavePolaschek

There's the difference. Kevin faces the jack, which runs left to right (or right to left). I use mine like a bench-hook, sawing or planing almost straight away from myself.

Don't really know the *right* way, but what I do means I don't have to add an extra clamp to keep the jack in place. I just either use its hook on the front of my bench, or clamp its hook in the twin-screw face vise on the front of my bench if I want it to be more solid.

Alternately, I use it on my low bench and the hook on it doesn't help much at all, and I end up using a pair of holdfasts to keep it in place.


----------



## summerfi

OK, that helps understand, Dave and Kevin.

I should probably say a little about sharpening this type of saw for anyone who may come along later and wonder. I researched the topic as best I could with the scant information available. One nationally prominent saw sharpener, whom I respect a lot, documented his approach. He sharpened the saw with "peg teeth", that is with an equal rake angle on the front and back edges of the teeth. That would equate to a 30 degree rake angle, which would normally be thought of as extreme. The rationale was that the saw would then cut equally well on the push and pull strokes. That is true, but equally well doesn't translate to efficiently. It wouldn't cut great on either the push or pull stroke. He also put no set in the saw, so that it wouldn't scrape the miter jack. That might work fine in thin stock, but it seems the saw would bind in thicker stock.

If you think about a miter box saw, they could be filed to cut on both the push and pull stroke, but they are not. There's a reason for that - to cut more efficiently on the push stroke. They also have a light set.

In examining Kevin's saw, it was quite dull, but the teeth were very well sharpened (equal size and spacing). I doubt the saw had ever been resharpened since it was made. In looking down on the saw with the toothline pointed up, the teeth were pointed right to left with what appeared to be a "normal" rake angle for a crosscut saw of around 12 to 15 degrees. I would call this configuration suitable for a right hand push stroke. That is, if you grasp the handle in the right hand, with the toothline pointed to the right, the teeth are shaped to cut best if the saw is pushed away from you. Kevin's saw also had a very slight set.

I looked at as many pictures of this type of saw as I could find on the internet. You could see the teeth on several of them, and they were all shaped just like Kevin's saw. Based on these observations, I concluded that a standard crosscut sharpening with very light set is what these saws were supposed to have. All that I saw were sharpened for right hand use. But what if you were a left handed sawyer? Then you would either have to use the saw on the pull stroke or have a left handed saw made for you.

I hope that is helpful information for anyone who may have a need to sharpen a French miter jack saw, or scie à recaler.


----------



## summerfi

To further illustrate the above, I'll use this picture from the Lee Valley website. If you were standing on the left side of the picture, you would be using a right handed grip (though both hands may be on the saw) and a push stroke. If you were on the right side, you would be using a left handed grip and a pull stroke.


----------



## DavePolaschek

Got it, Bob. Whereas I stand at the end of the jack.










That's my POV as I'm about to saw or plane a miter. So I'm on the right side of the jack, but facing such that the saw plate is downhill of the handle and to my left.

If it bothers me, I'm betting I can do a little disassembly, flip the saw plate, and put things back together "backwards". I am Polish after all. ;-|

Edit: picture from my blog on the miter jack


----------



## summerfi

Gotcha, Dave. So in that position, you are using a left hand grip on the saw, which means it cuts on the pull stroke. Incidentally, flipping the plate probably wouldn't work because I'm not sure the screw holes would line up exactly.


----------



## DavePolaschek

> Incidentally, flipping the plate probably wouldn't work because I'm not sure the screw holes would line up exactly.


Ahh. Wasn't sure if you'd made them symmetric or not. I'll just use it left-handed. Lucky for me my brain is wired kinda funny, I guess.


----------



## bearkatwood

My slitting plane is laminated with a .0465 piece on the bottom so when it is assembled the .015 plate that is inside with a light set will hit right in the middle of the handles, that's the theory any way.



















The top part has the recess for the blade and inserts to screw into.










Here is the latest set of saws I have been working up that I used it on and they turned out nicely. They are english walnut and the client wanted sapwood across the tops.










The CNC I bought was the "Axiom autorout Pro 24"x48 
It came highly recommended and is already assembled which saves me some time. I use sketchup quite a bit and had an old carvewright cnc for quite a few years. I don't speak CAD too well so this will be a learning experience for me.


----------



## RWE

Tomorrow is my birthday and today the saw gods smiled on me. I was going through an antique store and in the middle of a box of old roached out saws I found the first Thumbhole D-8 that I have ever seen in the wild. It was pretty roached, but straight and it looked like it might clean up. For $5 bucks it was worth a shot.



















As bad as it looked, the handle had no missing sections, no chips. It was as clean a handle as I have seen in that regard. It looked like it had been ridden hard and put up wet, literally.

5 PPI Phila 28 inch (1917-40 something). What is even more remarkable is that there is an etch.










It has the D 8 with the 8 inside the letter D. I believe that makes it an earlier between the wars model. (for the record, I cheated and used a Porter Cable restorer to clean the plate. I have used The Works (toilet bowl acid), Evaporust, and Citric Acid previously. However if I have a saw like a Warranted Superior where I know there is no etch, I go straight to the restorer. In this case, I put tape over the etch area ( I had one thumb hole D-8 already so I used it to locate where an etch might be). There is a coarse Scotchbrite wheel on the Restorer that does a good job on the rust. I used fine grit sandpaper on the etch area after doing the body with the Restorer.

From turning wood, I have learned to embrace thin super glue. So I have the thin cracks filled with super glue and then sanded the wood a bit around the glue line. After that, BLO. The BLO brought back some life to the wood. I will keep coating the BLO (1/3 BLO, 2/3 Denatured Alchohol) of a few days and then probably do a stain.










Still a work in progress, just got it today, but what a cool birthday present.


----------



## summerfi

Happy birthday Roger, and congrats on the thumbhole.


----------



## bearkatwood

Happy birthday sir, nice find and for $5.


----------



## theoldfart

Bob, saws just arrived. They are gorgeous. Thank you.


----------



## summerfi

That was quick, Kevin. I hope they work well for you.


----------



## theoldfart

This arrived yesterday from Bob aka Rocky Mountain Saw Works.










A Beardshaw, Groves, and my mitre jack saw.










I can't say enough about Bobs' fine sawdoctorship. I'm happy!


----------



## bearkatwood

Wow, very nice.


----------



## summerfi

Thanks for the nice words, Kevin. The c1840 Beardshaw is a cool saw. Has that extra little cove on the lamb's tongue like my Beardshaw tenon saw. Of course the scie à recaler (I like saying that) is a classically great tool too. And of course a Groves is always fantastic. Heck, that's a nice trio of saws you got there.


----------



## Mr_Pink

Those are both lovely saws.


----------



## theoldfart

Bob, i'm amazed that you could resuscitate a saw that's almost 180 years old.


----------



## theoldfart

I just posted a review of Summerfis' Rocky Mountain Saw Works


----------



## summerfi

Thanks, Kevin. I appreciate your support.

Well, two of the three mitre jack saws I made are sold and gone. I may have to make some more. Also sold the Vernon & Co. saw with the figured maple handle and an 8" dovetail saw. There is no limit to the demand for good saws.


----------



## theoldfart

Good thing you sold the dovetail, I was beginning to weaken and reach for the BuyItNow button!


----------



## donwilwol

Some of you guys may be interested in this. The original is usually quit pricey and it has a lot of information

https://www.amazon.com/dp/1796926310

While you are there, check out the rest I have
amazon.com/author/donwilwol


----------



## bearkatwood

There is currently a bemaco setter on ebay up for auction. Looks to be in good shape and have all its parts. It comes with a manual.










Same seller also has some foley ratchet bars available.


----------



## Bluenote38

Ladies and Gents - I know I saw it here somewhere but can't find it. How/what do I use to drill holes in a saw plate? I am attempting to re-handle a "Gent's" saw, it's my first try. Split nuts/screws require 5mm/13/64" holes. I'm using a Blackburn 9" Dovetail Saw handle template.


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## bigblockyeti

The plate can be pretty hard and potentially fragile if using the wrong approach. The old gas axe imparts zero mechanical (more than a little thermal) stress and doesn't care what it's trying to cut.


----------



## enjuneer

> Ladies and Gents - I know I saw it here somewhere but can t find it. How/what do I use to drill holes in a saw plate? I am attempting to re-handle a "Gent s" saw, it s my first try. Split nuts/screws require 5mm/13/64" holes. I m using a Blackburn 9" Dovetail Saw handle template.
> 
> - Bill Berklich


The most reliable way to drill a clean hole in spring steel is with a two-flute carbide drill bit in a drill press.

A regular HSS drill bit will work in a pinch, but the life expectancy will be greatly reduced. With HSS, the process is to press the drill bit to the plate, using a little bit of oil for lubrication, and wait until smoke can be seen. At that point, the saw plate has been heated enough from friction to remove the temper in the region of the drill bit, which will then start cutting. As I said, it is a bit iffy and there is a good chance that the drill bit will grab the plate, turning it into a implement of destruction. If you do this, be sure to securely clamp the plate to the drill press table.


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## summerfi

Bill - Here's what you need. I don't think they come in 1/64" increments though.
https://www.amazon.com/Chicago-Latrobe-High-Speed-Uncoated-Conventional/dp/B00462RR9K/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=5%2F32+carbide+spade+bit&qid=1551709861&s=gateway&sr=8-3


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## bearkatwood

It helps to have a fence set up to keep the blade from spinning if it grabs during the drilling.










Being solid carbide they are more brittle and prone to chipping, take your time at the beginning like enjuneer said and that will help.










My question is "what sort of gent saw gets split nuts?" Interested to see it. Best of luck.


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## Bluenote38

Ok - looks like I'll be going with the 7/32" Carbide though I may try the HSS route and see what happens.


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## Bluenote38

> It helps to have a fence set up to keep the blade from spinning if it grabs during the drilling.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Being solid carbide they are more brittle and prone to chipping, take your time at the beginning like enjuneer said and that will help.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My question is "what sort of gent saw gets split nuts?" Interested to see it. Best of luck.
> 
> - bearkatwood


I have them in-hand should I use something else? More appropriate/Better idea? Or as I read this maybe I was unclear - I have a gent's saw that I am putting a regular handle on like this:

http://www.blackburntools.com/articles/saw-handle-templates/images/9-in-open-l.pdf

Kind of like yours but not a fancy… More of a beginner version

https://www.lumberjocks.com/projects/269826


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## bearkatwood

> - I have a gent s saw that I am putting a regular handle on:
> - Bill Berklich


Ah, gotcha! That should work fine, let us know how it goes.


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## Sawron

If you're short on high carbide drill bits and a drill press, I put a c-clamp vertically in my face clamp with a block I drilled out so I could keep a punch vertical in it, then set the spot I wanted to drill under it, used the punch to smush material out of the way by clamping it down and using that to start the drill bit cutting easier.

Made a really delicate little handle as an experiment and cracked the blank while shaping it (was some old dried out wood from a weird box I found downstairs, think it's cherry?) so I recently tried to glue it together (couldn't get it seamless because some of the sides flaked off so the glue shows) but I wasn't confident about the durability so I ran a steel rod through both parts.
















Turned out pretty well I think.


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## OleGrump

Here's a nifty little saw I picked up in a wooden tool box FULL of miscellany at a local shop for $20 yesterday:


















The photo of the blade came out as clearly as I can get it, but it is marked "Pontiac" with the image of a Red Indian on it, and "Warranted, Made in USA. The saw nut says "Warranted Superior". I'm sure this is just a POS thrown into this jumble of tools, but any information anyone can provide would be appreciated.


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## kwigly

Grump, your Pontiac saw was made by Simonds. They had a secondary line with lots of Indians (Hiawatha, Osceola, The Sioux, Iroquois, Algonquin, Pontiac, Skenandoah are all in their 1910 catalog). Probably quite a good saw.


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## Johnny7

kwigly's got it right

That is a second-line saw by Simonds (pronounced Sigh-Munds").

To get an idea of its age, consider that Simonds stopped their hand-saw manufacturing cold in 1926.

Definitely not a POS.


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## theoldfart

I have a number of Simonds saws and as Johnny and Kwigly said, darn good saw.

Here is a good place to look


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## OleGrump

Guys, Thank you SO much for the information ! Somewhere around here I have a little pocket sized booklet put out by Simonds, that I got from a friend with some old tools. I had forgotten about that little book. I'll have to try and find it. Good to know this is a decent little saw. I like the smaller size. Could be a nice piece for a traveling tool chest. 
Overall, this saw is in good shape, and was one of the items in the little box that interested me.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Nice find, OG. Cool little saw.


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## bearkatwood

When I first started this saw making thing, it was so I could have a saw that I couldn't afford to buy. As my saw making career draws to a close for now I have finally made myself that saw. A Kenyon reproduction in English Pear. She's a beaut and cuts like a monster. Love this little thing. 


























Don't know if many of you have seen Ron Bontz site lately, but apparently he has become ill and is no longer making saw. Don't know any particulars, just took a look at his site today and saw his posting. Life is a fleeting thing, enjoy it while you can, thanks everyone.
Happy woodworking.

Hope everyone out there is doing well, my best to you all.


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## summerfi

That's a beautiful saw, Brian, but what's this about your saw making career coming to a close? That's not what we want to hear.


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## onoitsmatt

Yes Brian, what Bob said. I thought you just bought all the Acme saw filers within 1,000 miles. You can't stop now.


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## bearkatwood

I have plans to add a lean to or extra building on to the shop, perhaps next year. I will move all the saw making gear out there and hopefully hire someone on to take over the assembly. I am a woodworker first and miss it. I was doing youtube videos for fun and sharing what little I know about woodworking. I used to make all kinds of wild projects and then I made a video on making a saw, it was all over after that. Nothing but saws. You fine people understand how labor intensive these creatures can become, they take ALL your time. Just about every single saw maker I have known has had to quit at some time for a period to regain their sanity, that is what I need to do at this point. I have about 20-ish saws left in my queue of orders, then I will be turning my attention to teaching for the rest of the year. This will be my first year holding full classes in my shop. I have a stool making, chair making and two saw making classes scheduled for this fall. I will still make some saws when I can and I would like to restore some of the nice ones I have acquired lately for this forum, so you won't get rid of me that easily 
Thanks, have a great day above ground. 
And if you're a West Virginia coal miner, have a great day too.


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## UpstateNYdude

> Hope everyone out there is doing well, my best to you all.
> Don t know if many of you have seen Ron Bontz site lately, but apparently he has become ill and is no longer making saw. Don t know any particulars, just took a look at his site today and saw his posting. Life is a fleeting thing, enjoy it while you can, thanks everyone.
> Happy woodworking.
> 
> - bearkatwood


First that is a beautiful saw Brian, I just recently acquired a set of Wenzloff & Sons saws based on the Kenyon Seaton chest myself they cut like a dream and they've sort of inspired me so I'm going to try and take the plunge into making my own saws. I acquired a nice piece of Norway Maple from Bob S for the handles and I'm going to try and not muck it up to badly.

I spoke with RonB not to horribly long ago, he had been hospitalized for a bacterial infection and has had a really rough go of it for the last couple years losing numerous close family members. His saws are work of art, but I can completely understand him shutting down, I'd be an absolute wreck having gone through what he has. I truly hope I get the chance to own a saw by Ron some day his work is really amazing as are all of the saws here, you guys/girls truly are an inspiring bunch.


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## HokieKen

Good on ya Brian! You've made a name for yourself in a pretty short period of time and your scalloped backs make your saws instantly recognizable. I don't think any of us believe that was dumb luck and happy circumstance. I'm certain it was lots of late nights and long days. Do you man. If teaching people how to make stools and chairs is your passion and you are in a position to pursue it, that's the road to take.

I gotta say, as much as I enjoy seeing your saws, stuff like your Hobbit desk and your tool cabinet are what really make me drool )


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## JayT

The saw is gorgeous, Brian. Totally understand on the saws vs. furniture. If someone else can be the technician to produce your saw designs and you can get back to the furniture that you love, that's awesome. Like Kenny, I miss seeing the furniture designs you come up with and then execute so beautifully.

Sorry to hear about Ron Bontz. Only purchased from him a couple times, but he was awesome to work with and a real gentleman.


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## bearkatwood

> Sorry to hear about Ron Bontz. Only purchased from him a couple times, but he was awesome to work with and a real gentleman.
> 
> - JayT


He is a gentleman of the first order, very professional and a great guy. The bolts I used in that saw actually came from him. He has informed me that he is out of the hospital after that junk, hopefully out of the woods. He has been through a hell of a lot over the last few years. I am still hoping I can get one of his saws some day too. Life can have a way of being a real pain in the ass sometimes.



> I gotta say, as much as I enjoy seeing your saws, stuff like your Hobbit desk and your tool cabinet are what really make me drool )
> 
> - HokieKen


So glad to hear HokieKen, I really miss designing stuff. I wonder how my design style will have changed after spending so much time focussed on the detail stuff. Looking forward to finding out.
I am going to make good use of the new cnc machine. Loving that thing, we just finished up a set of compass college graduation canes using it and it is a beast.


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## summerfi

Brian, thanks for the clarification. I fully understand what you're saying. It's been interesting watching numerous saw makers catch the bug, gear up and go great guns, and eventually have to back off or stop all together due to the overwhelming and all consuming demand from appreciative customers, or in some cases other life changes such as health. I'm thankful that I can pursue this craft as a hobby rather than an income generating business. I can do what I want, when I want, and as I get older that seems to be less and less (haha). Whether you are making saws, building furniture, or teaching classes, I've seen enough of your work to know you will always do a first class and inspiring job if it.

BTW, Brian, I still have about a foot of snow in my yard that is blocking vehicle access to my shop, but we're expecting warmer weather next week. I think after another 2-3 weeks you could start planning your trip over this way, at your convenience of course. The shop is a mess because I've been running a lot of wood through the planer, but I'll try to get it cleaned up before you come.


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## HokieKen

I saw those canes on Instagram Brian. They're exceptional. I can't imagine the effort it took to batch them out without the CNC!

Who wants to visit a clean shop Bob? ;-)


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## Brit

Brian that saw is truly gorgeous. Good luck in your new ventures, I'm looking forward to seeing more of your inspiring projects.


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## bearkatwood

Thanks all. Bob, a little saw dust on the floor hasn't stopped me yet. Speaking of which, I should go sweep  Have a good weekend.


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## summerfi

I wasn't kidding when I said I've been planing some wood lately. The fence is 4.5' tall and the shavings pile is about a foot and a half above that. I don't think I'm quite half way through my lumber piles yet. I've got enough lumber here to keep Henry Disston's factory running for a couple of days. Maple, elm, ash, poplar, cherry, locust, box elder.


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## HokieKen

Good day Bob! That's a pile of chips buddy


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## bearkatwood

Giving Mount Sentinel a run for its money Bob.


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## DavePolaschek

I give grocery bags of shavings to a friend of mine to use as firestarters at his cabin. You could have a lot of friends, Bob.

Brian, beautiful saw. Good luck with whatever comes out of the shop.


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## Sawron

It is a weird bug when you catch it and find yourself doing excessively complicated sounding things like re-inventing a sort of bull-pup looking rebate or kerfing saw with a hacksaw blade in it for marking out nice straight cuts on your steel sheets. Cause man… it is maddening to have a slight wobble up on the span leave a stray groove next to your previously crisp clean kerf.

So yeah, I recalled a discussion last week where I got into a humorous rant about why the guy was called jigsaw when the eponymous saw was a hacksaw, and why was he offering them those if he wanted feet cut off? Butcher's saws are totally a thing, and could be explained easily thanks to Elwes there being a doctor.

Other dude starts trying to cut the chain, Elwes being a doctor recognizes why that won't work, "these aren't for cutting metal… these are bone saws."

So yeah, just to check and make sure that I hadn't retconned something which might have been a bonesaw I wanted to search it and check… so I promptly typed my search terms and hit enter.

Then I realized I had just searched "saw saw" and laughed til it hurt.

As I literally made this to fix an annoyance I had about sawing metal I dubbed it the Saw Saw: 









Waiting on packages to arrive with some more materials and hardware and such while getting plates sized up and test fitted in their handles.
















While I was coping the shape out I had an image pop in my head which I had seen a while back from discussions about how absurd it is for sabertooth cat paintings and such to always show these big purposeful cutting tools exposed to the elements because regular cat lips are just too small, so they must have stuck out right?

So I'm calling that handle pattern the Smilodon now.


----------



## CO_Goose

Got a question for the brain trust here. I picked up this Saw Set at an estate sale for a whopping $2, nothing ventured, nothing gained.










Looks to be operational, all of hte moving parts move, and the adjustments move freely. There is a big 1 on the inside of the handle, and the words, "Improved No.1 Pat. Dec. 8.90. Here are some more pictures:





































Preliminary Google-Fu brings up a "Morrills Improved No 1" but the patent dates are not matching.

Any information will be welcome, and it this a "good" saw set?

Thanks
Goose


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## Johnny7

It's hard to see from way over here, but are you sure that it's embossed "Improved No. *1*" ?

It just does not look like a "1" in your photo.

Secondly, after having done this for a loooong time, I can assure you there is many a slip between pat't date recorded at office and the one stamped on the tool at the factory. That may explain the discrepancy as there are at least (2) Morrill patents recorded on Dec. *2*, 1890.


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## Sawron

> When I first started this saw making thing, it was so I could have a saw that I couldn t afford to buy. As my saw making career draws to a close for now I have finally made myself that saw. A Kenyon reproduction in English Pear. She s a beaut and cuts like a monster. Love this little thing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - bearkatwood


That is a really cute little saw, I liked those when I was checking out some of the historical patterns, as I recall didn't Gramercy use some similar features as the little Kenyon pattern handles too?

Ooh, my first non-cheapo file came, gonna check out how these Bahco ones are doing once I get this snugged down into it's handle, grabbed a 6 inch double-x slim to push me into free shipping the other day, and taking advice from you lovely madmen I am eagerly expecting one of those carbide drill bits plus some Pegas 5 inch skip tooth pinned blades for my little coping buddies.


----------



## CO_Goose

Thanks Johnny,

Here is a better picture, looks like a 1 to me in this light.










Interesting about the patent date slips. I am assuming that it is a 90 for the year, it isn't stamped clearly, could be a different year than that.
Where do you find the patent information?

Goose



> It s hard to see from way over here, but are you sure that it s embossed "Improved No. *1*" ?
> 
> It just does not look like a "1" in your photo.
> 
> Secondly, after having done this for a loooong time, I can assure you there is many a slip between pat t date recorded at office and the one stamped on the tool at the factory. That may explain the discrepancy as there are at least (2) Morrill patents recorded on Dec. *2*, 1890.
> 
> - Johnny7


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## Johnny7

That's a "1" alright.

The patent info came from HERE


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## kwigly

Goose. More than you ever need to know on Morrill saw sets at
http://members.acmenet.net/~con12a/saw%20set%20website/plier2.htm


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## CaptainKlutz

If only I had time and energy to play with hand saws:

https://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/clt/d/mesa-hand-saws/6841447571.html










,
Will the person selling these unwanted rusty old saws please raise your hand? It has to be one the regulars in this thread, right? I want to know type of saw(s) you kept from your rust hunting that generated this left over stash. 

Cheers!


----------



## Sawron

Oh my god, seriously if any of you have ever tried to drill through a piece of spring steel before, I am literally angry with myself for not having tried one of those carbide bits earlier.

Like five minutes with an eggbeater and there's a crisp neat hole without any screaming and scraping horror sounds.


----------



## summerfi

I like the stylish handle on this saw made by Samuel Biggin & Sons. The saw dates to the 1850s.

*Before*



















*After*


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## DavePolaschek

That's a beauty, Bob! I like the shape of that handle too.


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## bearkatwood

Dang Bob, that turned out great. I like the top of that handle design, wonderful work.

Making a larger rip than my dovetail. I played around with the look a little. I like the bubble (rounded front cheek) look of some saws I have seen so I gave it a shot. This is a sycamore small tenon .020 13ppi 5 degree rake.


----------



## summerfi

I like the design, Brian, and the fleck in the sycamore really sets it off.


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## theoldfart

Fine looking Biggin there Bob.
Brian, i'm With Bob on the Sycamore Ray flecking.


----------



## DavePolaschek

Nice, Brian! Thirding the appreciation of the sycamore rays.


----------



## bearkatwood

Hey everybody, hope you are all doing well. 
Just wanted to show off the newest toy.
I had someone contact me from up north in Canada who had a benchtop version of the ACME. I met up with them today to pick it up and to my surprise it came with a nice little rolling table that is adjustable in height. Had a little storage on the side too, this will be nice as the shop is starting to get a bit cramped. Rolling tools always work well in small shops. They had a BeMaCo that I snagged as well.




























I have been trying to stock up a bit on saw making equipment thinking someday I will build another building behind the woodshop to house saw making, perhaps even hiring on some help, but at least to get it out of the woodshop.
So now I have three BeMaCos. A bit silly perhaps but when you find a good deal…










I found some hardware meant for a stand mixer and reworked my workbench to accommodate the setter, now I don't have to clean off the workbench when I want to set.










It is fantastic and just folds out of the way when not in use.










It would have been my fourth BeMaCo, but thankfully I was able to offload one to Bob this last week. Thank you sir by the way for the tour of your shop and the visit, it was an absolute pleasure to meet up with you and being that you are in my old stomping grounds I imagine I will be back a few times.

I got some wildly beautiful Norwegian Maple from Bob which I hope to turn into something.










I managed to click off a few shots of the ever famous saw till, Bob was so generous to show me each of his saws and explain some facts about them. I found myself looking at some saws on ebay the next day and was surprised at how much I had learned, thanks again Bob, we are all lucky to have you here in the forum.



















I am finishing up my saw run for this year and looking forward to getting back to some woodworking projects that have been piling up in my head. I ordered some more steel to have on hand when I do decide to get back at it. So I should be fully stocked up for round three of saws, perhaps next spring.










Roughly three hundred saws worth in there.










The CNC has been a nice addition, I found a pattern in the sketchup warehouse for a dovetail saw and tried it out. It seems to be an exact replica of the LieNielsen dovetail saws. I printed a few out, it was a good test of what it can do and I think it will do a fine job of making the handle blanks if I can figure out the programing enough to have it produce my design.




























I will use the cnc to produce the blanks and make saws for Craftsman Studio and whatever retailers I get into, I may do some bespoke versions on the side. I don't think I will get back into the "custom sized" gig again though and I doubt I will take orders. Too much stress. I have built up a tolerance to the stress of orders over the years doing custom furniture, but having about 60 saw orders in queue all customized made this last year insane. I am getting too old for that nonsense. I like to take my time and not feel rushed to get them all done.

Hope this next week treats you all well. Thanks, TTFN.


----------



## theoldfart

Awesome post Brian, thanks. We may be up in your neck of the woods later this year for a few weeks. Ok to stop by for a shop tour?


----------



## bearkatwood

Sure thing, love to have people come by the shop.


----------



## DavePolaschek

Thanks for the virtual tour, Brian!


----------



## summerfi

Thanks for the nice words, Brian. You are kinder than I deserve. What Brian didn't mention is that he drove all the way from western Washington to Montana just to bring me the BeMaCo saw setter and an Acme saw sharpener. Then, after visiting for a few hours, he drove all the way back home* in the same day*! The man is made of steel. It was a pleasure visiting with you, Brian, and I look forward to more time in the future. Here's what he brought me.



















On another topic, I've been experimenting with resin stabilization of wood for saw handles. This is common for things like knife scales and pistol grips, but I don't know of anyone who has done this with saw handles yet, so this is perhaps breaking ground. For anyone who may not be familiar with the process, you get the resin in the wood in a vacuum chamber, and then you cure the resin by baking it in an oven. Here's what the vacuum equipment looks like.










So far I've done two batches totaling 10 saw handle blanks. Here's what they look like.










L to R above are apple, maple, crotch walnut. Second row is crotch walnut and spalted pecan.










The four blanks in this picture are all hybrid poplar (Populus spp.), with the bottom two being spalted. These were otherwise pretty much worthless wood, but present some interesting results when stabilized. The color variety is amazing.

The odd shapes of some of the blanks is in order to eliminate some of the waste wood and conserve resin. The stuff is expensive at around $100 per gallon. I used about a half gallon for these blanks.

So, why would anyone want to resin stabilize saw handles? I can think of a few reasons.
+ Grain orientation is no longer an issue. You don't need quarter sawn grain for the wood to be stable.
+ You can use wood that would otherwise not be suitable. Light weight, soft, and even punky woods turn out hard and dense after stabilization. Hairline cracks and other minor defects turn out solid (Larger defects require filling with epoxy).
+ The handles will perhaps be more durable. Things like chipped horns or handle splits may be reduced. This needs testing and confirmation.
+ The wood is heavier. A stabilized blank feels similar in weight to a very dense wood like ebony. This may improve saw balance in the hand.
+ Though none of the blanks above are colored, it is easy to color the resin with compatible dyes to produce single or multi-colored handles.

There are some negatives as well, namely:
- The cost of the equipment and resin.
- The added time and effort to produce a saw handle.

I've not made a saw handle out of this material yet, but they say stabilized wood works similarly to a dense hardwood. I'll be interested to see if there are issues like clogging of rasps.

I have a bunch of natural wood handle blanks listed for sale on my website, and I may list some of these stabilized blanks as well. This is all experimental at this point, and I'd like to see a few people start making handles from the blanks to learn what their impressions are.


----------



## DavePolaschek

You beat me to the punch, Bob. I'm going to try to get a clean path to the stabilizing rig next weekend, so the following weekend I can do a batch or two of stabilizing. Got a bunch of spalted maple and some eucalyptus from Arizona to run through. I think most of it's aimed at knife handles, but I printed a saw handle template that I'll be holding up to some of the maple pieces to see if there's a saw in there. The most recent snow should be melting this week, so I might be getting some spalted birch from a buddy's yard to stabilize soon too.

My end goal is probably going to be moulding planes, though. I've had no joy finding quartersawn beech, but a piece of poplar I stabilized feels like it'll make a nice plane, as has some spalted elm. And birch will go through the pipeline soon.


----------



## bearkatwood

Yeah, that was a crazy driving day. I think I joined some silly club or something. 1,056 miles in one day. I wish I could have stayed for days, maybe another time when I am not up top the gills in work.

I look forward to trying out the stabilized blank I got while I was there. I know that it incurs a lot more labor and money in the materials it takes to make it, but the heft it gives the handle blank can only add to the balance it will give a saw. I think it has a good future for saw handles. More to come on this for sure.

Probably my favorite part of the trip was getting to hold the saws you made. Unbelievable quality, by far the nicest saws I have ever had the pleasure to get my chunky mitts on.

This is the chunk of stabilized wood I got while there. I believe Bob said it was Hybrid Poplar and it has some spalting.










I was also lucky enough to snag a couple goodies from Bob while I was there.










I sent you off a fun chunk Bob to try in that stabilizer. Here is a preview of its bookmatch. Very curly, very spalted, wild coloring. I believe it is a maple, we found it on the beach in Oregon a few years ago.










Should make for some wild saw handles if it works.


----------



## bigblockyeti

Brian, never apologize for having what others might construe as too many of something that you happen to like! At one point in time I had four Unisaws just because deals kept coming up that were too good to pass over. My wife wasn't too happy at the room they took up but when I sold three of them that quickly changed her tone


----------



## donwilwol

Wow. You guys have been moving right along! Last weekend I brought home this pile of parts.










After a week in Dallas of week long customer meetings and pure exhaustion (a delayed flight home because they couldn't find the pilot) I managed to sharpen this










I hope it was just beginners luck, because I may actually get to like this contraption.


----------



## summerfi

Don, for the missing pilot, did they look in the bar?

Those Foley filers can do a fine job once you master them, but the learning curve is steep. I have one, but have never set it up. I should do that.


----------



## bearkatwood

The bar? Priceless 

Those filers are a brat to set up and have running just right, but once they are they work great. I like using the acme because I have more control (Some might say I am a control enthusiast) When my toother makes off sized teeth I can use the ACME to lean into the larger tooth as the armature has just enough give to push one way or the other as you file.

I have been chatting with someone who ran a Standall for a living and it turns out it is a several pass kind of thing. I did a few test plates and the teeth got hardened and then broke off when setting. Supposedly there is a method to use that can produce some nice results with it though if you do the passes right. You can have it run through then set the teeth and then if you like you can harden them on the finish pass to make them hold up longer, but it means that touching up with a file would be difficult. The person lives up north of me and hopefully will be able to come down and spend a day walking me through the machine. It is an amazing gizmo. Little worried about the labor hours that would be spent with someone sitting in front of that thing for 5 passes though. Minimum wage is too high for that, but then most of the people who might work for minimum wage in this state are as well.


----------



## woodcox

Brian, I'm looking forward to seeing that spalted piece cut up. That is an amazing find, I hope the stabilization saves it.

That was funny, Bob. Here is an old Hudson and Landry bit playing that out.


----------



## bearkatwood

So to be a little truer to the forum "swas, cleaning collecting and buying" I have purchased a few off ebay over the last week or so. I bought a groves high hang little dovetail saw.









This is the image that Ebay had on it. I thought it had an unusually high hang, but looked interesting. Come to find out, that was the right hang. Weird. The saw is 10" long over all and doesn't appear to have been modified other than the blade was cut down and little and cornered because someone couldn't get the back screw off. I notched it just enough to get purchase on it to remove it. I will resplit the nut better now that it is loose.










I took it all apart and put the back in the mortise and this is where it sits nicely and it all appears to be original.










Pretty be a nice little, emphasis on little saw when it is all done, not sure if I should make a new plate for it or not.



















The other saw I picked up was a Disston, I will leave the age determination and all that to you fine folks who know a heck of a lot more about this restoring than me. It should clean up nicely though and I will try to be as gentle on it as possible.




























I can see the attraction to taking some of these old saws which were made very well and restoring them. It is hard to get to that kind of thing when you are really busy, it needs more time and patience I think to do correctly. As I draw closer to the end of my orders I am hoping for just that.
Hope you are all doing well.


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## donwilwol

Because I wanted one, I figured others would to.


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## bearkatwood

I decided to work that stabilized piece of poplar I got from Bob into something today and try it out. I wanted to see how brittle it would be and if this would be a way to use otherwise unusable woods. 
My answer is, an absolute MAYBE.

I went with a Spears and Jackson template pulled from TGIAG.com










I had seen one recently on Ebay I wanted, so that was a good fit. Why does the shipping from Australia cost so stinkin much? 










I tried to lay it out to get the best look. On a side note, I just this week got a new drill press chuck. I was tired of using the key that came with my drill press that seemed to be nothing but a knuckle cruncher. I ordered a keyless chuck off amazon. I couldn't be happier.
I wish I had made that switch years ago. It locks nice and tight and is so easy to use. I think it probably saves at least 2 minutes per handle, that can add up.










A quick look at some of the bits I use.










There was a small bug hole in the wood, so I positioned it to have the medallion cover that up.










Then I slotted the handle, the new slotting plane makes life so much easier.










Definitely worth the time to make if you plan to build more than one saw.










Once the handle is drilled, mortised and slotted I insert the fasteners and sand everything flush on both sides.



















One thing I would say about this is that being a stabilized piece of wood means we can't get away with some of the tricks we know as woodworkers if things don't go our way. It leans more toward a piece of plastic than wood at this point, which can give us more options in wood that would be otherwise not suitable for a saw handle due to stresses, but I would still caution to watch grain direction and thin stress points.
It might have been my mortise was a bit off center or the bit wandered as I raised it out of the hole, you can see here there is a slight gap in the medallion hole. Now with wood I could spray this down with a spritz of water and let it sit with the fastener overnight. By morning this would swell to fill up the cavity, but being stabilized my best bet is to adjust the squared mortise and split the difference around the medallion.










I experienced some blowout in drilling. I purposefully tried to get some when I was doing this to see what would happen. It seemed to want to tear off a larger chunk than would happen with unstabilized wood. The machining seemed to work quite nice if you can avoid the chipping issue. It is quite like cutting into a chunk of plastic.

All in all I liked it fairly well and while I don't think it is a suitable replacement for choosing a nice chunk of strong lumber it will produce some absolutely stunning saws from pieces that may have otherwise been destined for the burn pile.
More to come on this for sure.


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## summerfi

Great info, Brian, and it looks nice too. One thing I didn't mention before is that when the stabilized blanks come out of the oven, they may have a crust where the resin oozes out during heating. I flattened one side on the 6×48 belt sander and then ran the blanks through my lunchbox planer. I was cautions about this, not knowing exactly what would happen. But by taking light passes, there were no problems at all. I think a drum sander would work even better. If I do more of this, I may build a small drum sander just for thicknessing saw handles.


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## bearkatwood

I sold off my planer a while back and don't regret it. I have gotten pretty proficient at resawing so if I have anything too thick I just resaw it close and then use my thickness planer to get where I want with it. I have the supermax 19/38 and I can get grits from 36 up to 220 for it. I can only imagine what could happen with this material in a planer.


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## DavePolaschek

> they may have a crust where the resin oozes out during heating. I flattened one side on the 6×48 belt sander


I used to belt-sand the boogers off my stabilized wood Bob, but that does chew through the belts pretty quickly. Now I leave the wood a little thicker before stabilizing, then cut it close on the bandsaw and then hand plane or belt-sand to final thickness. Works pretty slick. And there's a lot less dust for me to worry about.

The only real workability problem I've had is that a hand plane doesn't always want to "bite" unless it's really sharp and set a little heavier than I like. I haven't had the blowout problems Brian described, but I've been careful to always have a good backing board.

Brian, that's a nice looking handle!


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## Sawron

Dag, that little groves has a crazy hang and I usually think of myself as a bit of a high hang fetishist!

I should probably get a pic of the bending rig I set up, found one of the rust buckets we have in the storage closet downstairs has something besides huge carriage bolts… it had at least four incredibly rusty steel hinges!

Scraped them down with a wire brush and sandpaper before slapping some mineral oil on there and connected them to some table legs I rescued from a curb a while back. Two of them with carriage+wing bolts for a clamp, and the hinged sections have steel faces I cut from… something, hmmm, but with a bit of finagling it served to make a surprisingly serviceable sheet bender. That works with a smaller bender from a pair of leg cutoffs I hinged together so I can smash them with my big 3 inch C-clamps and I can get the final fold set in nicely.









...oh crap, now I gotta tooth the damn thing up.


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## dbray55

Don - that saw filer will drive you crazy to make it work but when you get it working, it is nice.

The manual is on line, I hope you got the bars to hold the saw plates that go with it.


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## donwilwol

..

I've got the bars. They all look identical to me though. Should they be different?


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## donwilwol

I sharpened a crosscut last weekend with it. It seemed to easy. I have a feeling it was beginners luck based on what everyone is saying. I haven't had a whole lot of shop time lately but I'll be back at it.


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## bearkatwood

Some are straight, some might have a breasting to them. The clasps range in shape to accommodate a flat plate, a saw with a back etc. The ones for the flat plate will be shaped like a C and the ones for the backsaws will be an L shape. Nice set, I wiped mine down with wetdry sandpaper and then waxed them good, but I still have issues from time to time with slightly different shaped teeth.


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## summerfi

These are the carriers I'm aware of:
straight
crown
heavy crown
offset for backsaw
the one with the metal plate is for narrow saws like keyhole saws


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## bearkatwood

Bob, do you know the difference between the crown and heavy crown? I have one and would like to know which one it is.


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## dbray55

I am missing the crown ones and the key hole saw. I do have a good complete set of ratchets for the toother.


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## donwilwol

On further inspection I have a straight, #1, #2, #3 and the one with the plate.


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## donwilwol

I suppose I could read the instructions instead of asking you guys


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## summerfi

> Bob, do you know the difference between the crown and heavy crown? I have one and would like to know which one it is.
> 
> - bearkatwood


I have both. I'll measure them later today and post the results.


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## summerfi

I measured the crowned or breasted carrier bars. The regular crown rises exactly 1/4" from the end of the bar to the center. The heavy crown one rises 1/2".

I presume the latter is for heavily breasted saws such as the Woodrough & McParlin No. 100 bow belly saw. A few other makers made saws with a similarly high crown.


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## bearkatwood

ok, so does anyone have the 1/2" crown that I am missing? Could use a 14ppi as well.
Thanks Bob.


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## summerfi

I have some spares, but no 1/2" crowned one. If anyone needs a straight, miter, or 1/4" crown carrier, I could let those go.

I could use 12, 14, 15, and 16 ppi ratchet bars. My 10 is worn and doesn't produce consistent teeth, so I could use a good one of those too.


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## bearkatwood

Didn't know they had a 15, I wouldn't mind that either. Don't know why I didn't think they made that particular count, silly I guess. So if anybody has a 14 or 15 me or Bob could use em.
I have a 10 I can send you Bob, we can swap for something I'm sure. 
I also have a 9,5 and 8,4.5 I could let go. Perhaps a straight carrier bar, but those aren't too hard to find.


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## summerfi

I'm not sure if they made a 15 or not, Brian. Just making an assumption.


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## bearkatwood

I wonder if there would be a way to hook a piece of 1/4 bar stock to my standall and make a few ratchet bars for the foley. The one I would really like to make up is the one I talked about with you there, the progressive and go from 14?down to 8 or 9 and then you could pick a point on the bar that would work for your plate.


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## summerfi

I think ErikF has made some. It could be done on a mill, but that's beyond my ability. If you figure out how to make them I'm sure you could sell a bunch, as they are scarce and in demand.


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## Mosquito

Interesting info, on the carriers, I knew there was crown, straight, and backsaw, didn't know there was more than that… I'll have to see what I've got, as I think I now have 8-9 carriers.


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## donwilwol

I passed on a Foley yesterday for a pretty reasonable price. The dealer was willing to break them up. He has a box of ratchet bars (the kind with the gear teeth on the top) along with a lot of other parts. PM me if you're interested and I'll get you his contact info. If I had more room and more time I'd have brought it home.


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## bearkatwood

A couple recent acquisitions and the restored/sort of small high hang dovetail saw I found on ebay.

I was very surprised to find that the hang was correct on that small saw, as far as I could tell the mortise was original and the back had not been modified in any way, so it was meant to be this small and have that wild hang. I had to relax the rake a bit to make it work smoothly. 
The two larger saws are both from ebay, I have been spending way too much time and money there lately, but what fun. Of course I blame you all for getting me hooked on old saws.

Here is what that little Groves saw looked like when I got it. It has a new plate.


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## UpstateNYdude

Brian who is the middle saw by in the first pic? That handle is awesome, would it be possible for you take a more up close pic of that handle?


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## bearkatwood

Nick,
Those are both Disston #12s. The top is from 1896-1917 range and the middle saw was made from 1876-1880. The older one has a much more defined look to it, they lost some character as they went along and massed produced them. Another example of older being better.



















One of the newer style just sold last night on ebay for $172, pricey little cookie.


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## UpstateNYdude

I guess so, I'm finding that to be the case in more things than just hand saws. Beautiful saw I can see why they command a high price, it's tough to match the beauty of something that they actually designed for craftsman back then. Now all most companies see is how can we make it cheaper forgetting the aesthetics completely sometimes. I suppose that's why you and so many other small shop saw companies get so many orders, because you actually care about what your end product looks like and how it functions.


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## summerfi

> I passed on a Foley yesterday for a pretty reasonable price. The dealer was willing to break them up. He has a box of ratchet bars (the kind with the gear teeth on the top) along with a lot of other parts. PM me if you re interested and I ll get you his contact info. If I had more room and more time I d have brought it home.
> 
> - Don W


Thanks for the info, Don. I contacted this fellow about the ratchet bars, and he sent me some pictures. Unfortunately, the bars will not work in a Foley automatic (motorized) retoother. They are for the early style lever action manual retoother with the carriers and ratchets all made into one unit. He has one of the manual retoothers that they fit as well. It would be fun to play around with, but shipping to me would likely be prohibitive. I don't know if he has other equipment, as that's all the pictures he sent.


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## summerfi

There was recently some discussion about what ratchet bars were made for the Foley automatic retoother. This graphic from some old Foley literature shows the five standard ratchet bars that came with the machine plus four optional bars. The optional bars include 12, 14, 15 and 16 ppi.


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## ErikF

Brian,

You should be able to make ratchet bars pretty easily now that you have a CNC router. That's how I made some for myself.

Ratchet bars don't need to have index points shaped with a back angle. All that's important is that the feed pawl has a flat surface to register against when feeding the bar.

I used 1/4" square stock (mild steel) and drilled/tapped the back of the backside of the bar to accept a 10-32 machine screw. It's an easy way to hold the bar to the carrier.

Cutting each index point is done with a small endmill or chamfer bit. Using a chamfer bit requires the index slots to be deepened with a hacksaw. As long as the hacksaw blade has a groove to guide the first stroke, the spacing stays even. Fine pitch bars take awhile to make but it's easily doable. Buy a stub nose endmill with a small diameter and you're all set.

I tried folding bronze a couple days ago. I like it.


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## bearkatwood

In my never ending search to find the easiest way to drill for split nuts I have come across a nice little setup.

It came from Make it Snappy Tools. Made in the USA.










https://www.snappytools.com/product/43032-premium-rotating-depth-stop

I traded out the bit that comes with the rotating stop for one of their flat bottom counterbores. Depending on the size you need you can make it work for a few different sizes.










https://www.snappytools.com/product/33212-316-x-12-3-flute-flat-bottom-counterbore-with-tin-coated-twist-drill

I plunged the bit down until it touched the flutes of the counterbore and with some of the split nuts as spacers I positioned the collar. Worked the first time and does a great job. It still fills up with chips after a few holes so you need to clean it out, but it is a good way to go. No more setting a depth stop on the drill press and if the material is a little different in thickness it messes up the hole depth. 
I have a lead on another setup, an aircraft counterbore system that I think will be even better, but pricey. I will post here if and when I get it up and working.
This turned out well though and not crazy expensive.










This worked well for the 1/2" or smaller bolts, the medallion 3/4" size I am still playing with. hope everyone is doing well. Later.


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## bearkatwood

Erik, I got four bars in the mail today, I will see what bits I have. I may need to order a new one, but I am going to try making a few ratchet bars out of them. I would like to try a progressive pitch, it may mean that I have to watch it as it goes through to alter the spacing. Might be tricky, but worth it if it works I would also like to try an 18ppi, maybe a 17??
Bob, I got after the spalted chunks you did for me today. I decided to start with a dovetail saw as I had done four of them today and I was in a rhythm. I think it is going to be very nice. It had a few punky spots where the resin hadn't gotten all the way into the piece, but I infused that with CA glue and it seemed to do really well. It wasn't in any areas that were structural so I think it will hold up fine.
Not sure if I will sell it through Instagram, Ebay or put it in my till.


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## summerfi

That looks wild, Brian. Better than I expected. What type of finish did you put on it?


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## bearkatwood

Nothing yet, still have a ways to go. This is just mineral spirits on it to see how it will look.


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## HokieKen

Brian - here's another option for your medallions. Not sure if it's better in any way but it's an option. That saw and handle are gorgeous!


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## bearkatwood

Thanks Kenny, the problem hasn't been in finding the right counterbore bit, but MSC is a good source for them. I have had trouble finding a depth stop for them. Most either don't have that option or recommend using a stop collar. Those trap the chips and then it burns and deforms the hole. So the bets way is to find a depth stop that can be micro adjusted and is far enough away from the bit itself that chips don't get trapped. The ones I have been looking at are sold through aircraft repair shops. I am still nailing down a good dealer with a decent price on them as they aren't cheap.
This is basically what they look like. They have a threaded insert for the counterbore that locks into the cage and can then be micro adjusted to the right depth.


















I should have a quote from a few people later today and be able to pass on the info.


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## Mosquito

The saw looks great, and that's a sweet tip on the saw nuts, especially if making a lot. So far, I've only used the drill press (or post drill), and that's a fiddly process at best


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## HokieKen

Ah, now I'm tracking Brian. Have you considered something like this? Basically a DRO for your drill press. Touch the tool to the top of the part, zero it and drill to depth. No stop required.


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## ErikF

A counterbore with a depth stop based off the work surface sounded really great, I just messed around with the idea and came up with this. Not sure how your drill press is setup, but quite a few have a screw that attaches to the quill with a bracket. Flip the screw around and make a foot. Not perfect but it works well enough. Holds a couple thou tolerance.


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## bearkatwood

See now Erik, there you go. That's your problem, you think too practically. I look for the fancy expensive bits and you just bolt a rod on the drill press, job done! Nice.
Those keyless chucks are the best though. I have had mine for a little over a week and I am kicking myself for not getting one 20 years ago.


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## ErikF

Right? whoever perfected the keyless chuck should be sitting on a Nobel Prize.


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## HokieKen

Have to agree, keyless chucks are the bizness


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## woodcox

Great idea there, Eric.

This thread is the bizness. Hard to beat imo.


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## donwilwol

I can't seem to make my brain work that way! Thank God for those who share.


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## ErikF

Bob,

I was on your website looking at the stabilized blanks you have available- that's wild.

Have you tried stabilizing a handle after it's been rough formed? Not practical if the wood is punky, but what if the wood was just soft? I'm thinking along the lines of American chestnut and some old growth redwood I have. It's plenty strong to hold up to the forming of the handle, just not strong enough for an open handled saw. Even some quartersawn doug fir would look amazing as a saw handle.


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## DavePolaschek

> Have you tried stabilizing a handle after it's been rough formed?


The problem with stabilizing something that isn't a rectangular blank is that you get hardened resin on the exterior of the blank that needs removing. The picture of the apple in my blog about my second batch of stabilizing shows what I mean.

If you don't wrap the wood in foil, that would likely not be attached to the wood, but instead it would be all over the bottom of the oven. Not sure that would be an improvement. :-/


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## ErikF

Dave,

Nice post. I took the plunge and ordered a couple gallons of cactus juice and a vacuum pot with glass top. Sounds like it'll take some experimenting to figure out what would best meet my needs and methods for working the handles.


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## summerfi

Erik, I think you could stabilize rough-formed handles as long as you were using your own handle templates. If selling blanks to someone else, you don't know what templates they will use, so you have to make them oversize. As Dave said, you'll have a resin crust on the outside, but that would be removed during the final shaping of the handle. I've not been wrapping my blanks in aluminum foil, so the "drippings" collect in a pan at the bottom of the oven. That minimizes the amount of crust on the blank.

It takes a surprising amount of resin to stabilize a saw handle blank. Close to $10 worth. So, I'm still undecided how feasible this is in the long run. It's fun to play around with, but may not be practical except for very special woods.

Edit: One additional note, leave your handle blanks on the thick side because I've found that you get some warping when you heat them on the oven. I've minimized this by clamping them flat until they cool. But to end up with a finished 7/8" handle, you need to start with a blank that is 1/16 to 1/8 thicker than that.


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## DavePolaschek

Thanks, Erik. Tried to make it informative.

I agree with Bob that this would be a tough biz. For knife scales, a 1 5/8×1 5/8×6 block is enough to make two sets of scales, and sells for about $50. I figured about $10 of juice, $10 of wood, and about $20 of labor at my current run-rates. If I get more efficient, maybe I could make a business of it, but as it stands, I'm just aiming to make blanks for my own use, and *maybe* make enough selling a blank here and there to pay for the juice.

That said, it's fun to play with, and I've already made a half-dozen pieces of wood that went into unique tools. I'll probably keep playing with it, but trying to make a business of it? Not me.


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## ErikF

Bob,

Thanks for the tip about leaving the blanks on the thick side. Did you bake the blanks before stabilizing and is that where the warping happened, or was it during the cure bake?

I did notice the stuff is expensive, that's my main reason for thinking it would be more efficient if I had the handles roughed out prior to stabilizing. It'll be the first method I try.


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## summerfi

Some people bake the wood before stabilizing to drive out any residual moisture the wood may have. The wood I've done has already been quite dry and I live in a dry climate, so I didn't do that. The warpage occurred during the curing bake after they came out of the vacuum chamber. When still hot they are pretty pliable. I clamped them flat, and after they cooled they are very rigid and show no indication of wanting to warp again. Clamping them in a press of some sort for cooling might be ideal.

I've been using this resin as an alternative to Cactus Juice. It's about $20 a gallon cheaper and seems to work fine. I suspect it's the same or very similar chemicals. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07P1BYZKF/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


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## ErikF

Dave,

I suspect that to make a business of it would take a large investment to get a bulk rate on the stabilizer. Not something that generates much interest for me either.

Bob,

Sounds like I should try putting together a clamping fixture to keep the wood flat after the curing. I purchased the cactus juice from Turn Tex for 79.95 per gallon, had to buy two gallons and there was an additional $15 shipping fee. I'm excited to try it out.


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## bearkatwood

I like to end up with right at .92 inch thick material for me handles, so I will oversize the next set of that maple for you. Good info coming through right now, thanks all.


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## DavePolaschek

> Some people bake the wood before stabilizing to drive out any residual moisture the wood may have.


Curtis says any moisture will ruin things, but what I've found is that moisture in the wood prevents the resin from penetrating everywhere, and then when you bake it to cure it, that moisture boiling off will push the uncured resin out of the wood, causing waste.

So I bake things dry (overnight at 220 does it, but at some point I may build a kiln for drying chair parts, and use that) just because I'm cheap.


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## bearkatwood

I bet a lightbox kiln would work just fine, I use that for my chair rungs and it can take things down to and below 4% pretty quickly.


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## KelleyCrafts

I've stabilized several items. Like bob, I don't wrap my blanks in foil, I wrap a pan in foil so I don't have to clean off 1/8" of resin when I'm done. Most of my stabilized items get cut down and put in a casting mold so wood movement isn't a huge issue for me but that's good to know.

Thanks for the link Bob, that stuff might come in handy.

Another tip, if you do large runs of handles Erik you can load up the vacuum pot over and over again and just add resin as needed. The stuff is supposed to not be stored in the pot but if you burn through it all or most of it in a matter of a couple days you should be good. Will save on waste. All this essentially is, is a liquid acrylic. The stuff is good when you need it but it's not for everything. Some woods just don't need it. Many of my AZ woods I use are too dense to even take it in. So this should really be for spalted or weak woods. Acrylic is ultimately more brittle than many woods out there. Going to town with one of those amazing saws would be a bummer if the handle broke, something to think about. I for one am not a fan of stabilizing things just for the sake of doing it.

Just my .02


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## ErikF

> I've stabilized several items. Like bob, I don't wrap my blanks in foil, I wrap a pan in foil so I don't have to clean off 1/8" of resin when I'm done. Most of my stabilized items get cut down and put in a casting mold so wood movement isn't a huge issue for me but that's good to know.
> 
> Thanks for the link Bob, that stuff might come in handy.
> 
> Another tip, if you do large runs of handles Erik you can load up the vacuum pot over and over again and just add resin as needed. The stuff is supposed to not be stored in the pot but if you burn through it all or most of it in a matter of a couple days you should be good. Will save on waste. All this essentially is, is a liquid acrylic. The stuff is good when you need it but it's not for everything. Some woods just don't need it. Many of my AZ woods I use are too dense to even take it in. So this should really be for spalted or weak woods. Acrylic is ultimately more brittle than many woods out there. Going to town with one of those amazing saws would be a bummer if the handle broke, something to think about. I for one am not a fan of stabilizing things just for the sake of doing it.
> 
> Just my .02
> 
> - KelleyCrafts


Thanks Dave. I like the idea of keeping it the the pot and running until the resin is used up. I did read on their website that dense woods don't benefit much from it unless you're trying to seal out moisture, and oily woods can actually mess with the chemistry of the solution. I'll be sticking with porous wood that would otherwise be unusable, fingers crossed that it works out.


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## ErikF

> I bet a lightbox kiln would work just fine, I use that for my chair rungs and it can take things down to and below 4% pretty quickly.
> 
> - bearkatwood


Is it as simple as a light bulb in an insulated chamber with airflow? Do you only use it after the wood has been air dried?


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## DavePolaschek

> Is it as simple as a light bulb in an insulated chamber with airflow? Do you only use it after the wood has been air dried?


Yes, that's about all there is to a kiln. Might need multiple light bulbs depending on size and airflow. And LEDs and compact fluorescents don't work very well. ;-)

You can dry green wood in one too, but you'll have more movement and checking and such. I dry small pieces of wood in my shop toaster oven, but as it's fairly small, which restricts the airflow if I'm drying very much, I'll also use an old cookie sheet in the main oven and not tell my sweetie.


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## DavePolaschek

> Many of my AZ woods I use are too dense to even take it in.


I've been stabilizing some of the eucalyptus I got from AZWoody. It's awfully dense, but it has small checks and cracks in it, and stabilizing, at least if I let it soak long enough that I get good penetration, helps strengthen up those areas.

But as Dave points out, the acrylic can be more brittle than wood. It's not magic.

I've been playing with red oak and having mixed results, but will keep playing. White oak, because of the tyloses, doesn't stabilize especially well, but I can get enough juice and dye into red oak to make it interesting. I've had almost no luck stabilizing good sound maple. But I've had *great* luck with spalted maple. And some spongy sweet gum that was almost too soft to cut with the bandsaw made a couple great-looking knife handles.


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## bearkatwood

I have two lightbox kilns in my shop. The smaller is used for stretchers for chair making. I came across a home depot cabinet after a remodel that worked well for it. Lined and topped with insulation it has a 100w lightbulb and a small fan, but I turn the fan off periodically to keep the wood from splitting out too bad.



















The second is 8' long and 3' highx2'wide. I call it the vault and it holds larger pieces that need to be brought down to equilibrium with the shop quickly for a job or setting large formed steam bends. It has a smaller watt lightbulb, but higher capacity fan. I have found that the heat from the fan motor will get the box over 110degrees no problem. I wired it for a dehumidifier as well, but it gets too hot to use in there and stops functioning. Most home depot style dehumidifiers have an automatic shut off over a certain temp. If I had a second air chamber to circulate the air into I could possibly use it, but it seems to work fine without.




























A moisture meter is good to have on hand, but for the sake of removing all the moisture in a small block to be stabilized I would weight it and then dry it until the weight no longer drops. A microwave can be an alternative to a lightbox kiln. I haven't experimented with it much, but I have heard it will do the trick.

Bob uses a toaster oven to cook the wood after stabilizing and if you had one with maybe a proofing option that might be a great way to dry the wood too.

I watched an episode of American Crafted last night and they had a pen maker, Tom Gaultt who went through the stabilizing process pretty well. After stabilizing the blanks he put them in a mold and set the mold in a pressure cooker with air attached to create a pressure chamber that would push the epoxy resin into the cavities of the blank, might be something to try. I was thinking it might be fun to make a mesh or wire framework and then surround that with burl chunks. Set the whole assembly in a form that is close to a handle shape and then work it down. It would be a ridiculous amount of work for a saw handle but can you imagine one that had this look.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

> I've been stabilizing some of the eucalyptus I got from AZWoody. It's awfully dense, but it has small checks and cracks in it, and stabilizing, at least if I let it soak long enough that I get good penetration, helps strengthen up those areas.
> 
> - Dave Polaschek


Spreading a little dyed epoxy on those areas solves the problem and strengthens it fine. Eucalyptus is the wood I use most often, building an entire kitchen with it now actually, it's a difficult wood because it's already brittle and there are a lot of problem areas but I still think stabilizing it is a waste of time and money. I'll fill checks and cracks with epoxy and move on. Epoxy is more flexible and cheaper than acrylic.

Not everything needs to be turned into plastic.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Brian, casting and into a pressure pot is usually what I do. I still stabilize certain items before I cast it.

I'll have to check that show out. Sounds cool.


----------



## HokieKen

I agree with Dave but Dave is wrong ;-)


----------



## bearkatwood

I am purchasing a setup for stabilizing as well and would like to know what toaster oven might you recommend. I found a good setup for the vacuum, just curious to know if there was any perks that you might like with the toaster ovens, thanks.


----------



## BenDupre

> I am purchasing a setup for stabilizing as well and would like to know what toaster oven might you recommend. I found a good setup for the vacuum, just curious to know if there was any perks that you might like with the toaster ovens, thanks.
> 
> - bearkatwood


I don't stabilize wood, but it occurs to me that the appropriate toaster overn is: The cleanest one you can find at the Goodwill. Also an excellent source for crock pots to melt wax or strip paint from old hardware.

Goodluck


----------



## summerfi

Brian, here is the oven I bought, except I got a refurbished one and paid about half that much. Two things I think are important: 1) The extra room of a 6-slice oven makes it easier to bake multiple handles at once. 2) A switch that lets you turn the oven on continuously rather than just setting a 30 minute timer.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005QB4ULS/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o09_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## CaptainKlutz

FWIW - If serious about on wood stabilization with resins, and you want vacuum and heat; don't forget that industry sells vacuum ovens purpose made for task.

Worked with polymers for living, and when I needed heat+ vacuum for home projects, I bought a used laboratory vacuum oven. Military uses them for field repair on hermetically sealed connectors; so they show up on government auctions constantly. Just about every chemical lab in world has several, as they are used for drying hygroscopicc materials. Can find the the smaller vacuum ovens at various surplus sources for < $200. Can also buy brand new vacuum oven from China on fleabay for $500-600.

PS - Normal process for vacuum infusion of polymers is multi-step process. Goes some thing like this: Clean, vacuum bake to remove moisture, infuse part while still above room temp, and last raise temp to cure resin.

3 cautions:
1) If attempting to infuse oily wood, suggest you would want to vacuum bake for several days to remove as much oil as possible (removing from vacuum every 12 hours to clean), then clean oil with solvent, and then infuse.
2) If wood has high moisture content when placed into high levels of vacuum, it will explode violently. Always dry wood slowly, and don't apply any serious vacuum levels until wood is below 2-4%
3) If attempting to dry woods in vacuum, consider addition of water trap before pump. If you don't use one, the oil in pump will become contaminated and need replacement more often.

Best Luck.


----------



## bearkatwood

I did see the vacuum ovens and was curious about them. I ended up getting this for my pot.









It is a 3 gallon wide pot which is 10.5"x8" in case I really want to get after it.
And I found a small toaster oven at the thrift store.










Bob, I will still send you some more of that maple to have for yourself or sell if you like. I am looking forward to trying this all out. I think I will get some silicon and make a mold for a few different projects.


----------



## summerfi

Sounds good Brian. A note on the vacuum chamber you selected - Having a glass top is great, as the 1/2" plexiglass tops develop cracks quickly. Speaking from experience there. On the other hand, having the fittings on the side will require close monitoring when doing multiple handles to make sure the resin and/or bubbles don't reach the fittings and suck resin into the pump. The bubbles/foam rises quickly when you start pulling a vacuum.


----------



## bearkatwood

Good advise Bob, thanks. I didn't think of that. It said it was for wood stabilizing, so I went with it and tried to get the biggest one I could afford.


----------



## bearkatwood

I have my pump and pot, just waiting on the stabilizing fluid(which I conveniently forgot to order)

I also now have the smallest end mill .030" for my cnc, I can start on the ratchet bars for the foley and see if it works.










I have four bars of 1/4"square mild steel, hopefully it works out and I can get a few ratchet bars I am missing and maybe make one that doesn't exist.


----------



## ErikF

Looking good, Brian. I got my chamber yesterday and should be getting my cactus juice this afternoon. I hope to run some handles through the pot next week…I'm excited. I resawed some chestnut and old growth redwood last week.

Something to think about- now that you have a vacuum pump, making a small vacuum table would be easy. I made a small one for my CNC to hold thin pieces of titanium for engraving. Combine it with a decent carbide engraving bit and you'd be able to engrave on your saw plates. I did it to a few sample saws early on- it worked pretty good. I think it looks better than a laser etch, just my opinion. Sometime in the next couple months I plan to mount a magnetic chuck to my machine for engraving saw plates. Would be fun to mess with and one step closer to making a combination saw.

Klutz- thanks for the heads up on the heated vacuum chamber. I may have to go back into the dangerous world of online auctions.


----------



## bigblockyeti

Brian, what does the surface finish need to look like on those ratchet bars? I ask because a laser could haul ass cutting those out very precisely but leaves kind of a rough surface that may or may not be an issue for your application.


----------



## bearkatwood

Erik, those are some nice chunks. The resin really opens up possibilities. I would like to find some resin that would be strong enough to allow the use of burl.

I hadn't thought about doing the etch on the cnc, this thing just keeps showing new uses. I had my local laser engraver try their hand at the etching, it turned out ok-ish but the metal got distorted. I gave them some chunks to try other settings, but I am not holding my breath.


















(pursuing was supposed to be promoting)










Not until I had taken the pictures and could barely make out the problem did it dawn on me that maybe I am way too picky.
My kids used to be impressed that a 3D printer could print the parts for another 3D printer, didn't think that a cnc would have just as much possibility, I was use to the Sears Carvewrite(p.o.s. don't buy) This vacuum chamber is starting to feel like the space race with you Erik, but Bob beat us to the moon already, still it is fun. I was going to see about getting some burl chunks and then build a frame, but I still need the silicon for the mold. 
As far as finish on the ratchet bar goes, I would imagine the finer the better. Getting odd shaped teeth when roughing out echoes down the line and makes sharpening a pain.
Bob, have you had luck with the ACME? 
Guess I better get after it, later folks.


----------



## summerfi

> Bob, have you had luck with the ACME?
> 
> - bearkatwood


Hello from the moon! One baby step for saws; one tiny leap for saw makers. lol
I haven't messed with it much, Brian. Now that Spring is here my time and attention have turned to things other than saws. I do want to get it cleaned up and painted this summer, but the majority of my saw work will have to wait until fall.

BTW, Brian, what CNC did you get? They intrigue me, but I am ignorant about them. Erik has THE CNC machine, but a PM is way outside this saw makers budget.


----------



## bearkatwood

I bought the Axiom 24"x48" 
https://www.axiomprecision.com/pro-plus/pro-plus-series.html?___SID=U

The software I have is the Vcarve and Aspire, both amazing programs that let you import models and change them easily. Worth the bucks there as I am technologically challenged. Middle aged dog new trick kind of thing.


----------



## bandit571

From the realm of the new saws, to the Realm of the vintage saw..
.








Little saw is an 8point…what I can read of the etch (inside a banner) SIMONDS SAW CO. 









medallion says Warranted Superior….yet is finely carved ….









Big rip saw is a 5-1/2 point…it does have a nib









( the other two items..Winchester square, North Bros No. 30A, 3 patent date) Saw also has those split nuts..









But, no medallion..









Both plates are kink and bend free…panel saw could use a good sharpening, though. No crack in either handle.

Total for today's trip? $4.00 
Haven't found any etch on the big rip saw…Not too bad of a COLD morning?


----------



## bearkatwood

I wouldn't mind a cold morning like that, $4 well spent. Where I live we went from cold to hot with zero decent spring weather in between. Those look like they would finish up nice and be good users Bandit.


----------



## ErikF

Bob, keep an eye out on your local craigslist. Mine was in the back of a horse barn and the owner traded me straight up for a 20" jointer I bought at an auction. Yes…this was the best deal of my life. There is a little bit of a curve but they're very versatile machines. Can even make screws screws from roundstock.

Out of curiosity, what's the oldest saw you guys have in your collection? Any pre 1800?


----------



## bearkatwood

I think Bob has a few with dinosaur bones imbedded in them.


----------



## summerfi

Erik, anywhere else and that may be feasible. Around here all you find on CL is covered wagons, butter churns, and washboards. We're still in the 19th century.

I have saws back to around 1830, maybe one or two slightly earlier. Pre-1800 saws seem incredibly hard to find unless you're willing to pay ridiculous prices. I do see people from time to time talking up their "18th century" saws that are clearly from the 19th century.


----------



## bearkatwood

So it is a good thing I ordered two of those .030 bits. I busted the first one on the first pass, seems that 25 inches per minute was a bit too much for it. I slowed it down to 3 inches per minute and the second bit seems to be doing fine. This will be a 14ppi bar. Thanks Erik for all your help. I have had a bumpy start with the cnc but I am liking it now. All you CNC pros please ignore all my clamps with chunks missing 



















This picture shows it next to a (9-5)bar.


----------



## bearkatwood

I am quite interested to know what the second from the bottom saw is in this batch, anybody know?


----------



## theoldfart

No medallion?


----------



## bearkatwood

Best I can come up with, it is part of a lot on ebay. Not going for it, but I was interested to know what that saw was.


----------



## Sawron

I swear I've seen a drawing of one of those in one of the manual pages you dudes posted in the last thread but have no idea what the name was.

Any of you ever used one of those shinto saw rasps? I love mine to death, though it does like to nip me occasionally but man I wish they made a curved profile version for stuff like these.


----------



## theoldfart

Yea, I still couldn't read it Brian. The details on the handle make me think it's a high grade one but I'm not that well versed on handle profiles.


----------



## summerfi

It looks like an Atkins to me, Brian, and I think it could be the No. 400.


----------



## summerfi

For sawyers who like the rustic look, you can start the bidding on this saw for only $22.60 shipped.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-rusty-old-hand-saw-blade-rustic-vintage-decorative-27-inch/123763404681?hash=item1cd0dfaf89:g:xKwAAOSwf-BcjDE-


----------



## summerfi

This is a button.









This is a saw medallion.









Some casual saw sellers on ebay think the two terms are interchangable. Jeesh….next they'll be calling saw handles totes, and calling nibs….I don't even want to think about it.


----------



## Brit

I've noticed over the last few years that you have to get a bit more creative with your search criteria on ebay because sellers don't know what the real names of the things they are selling are. It can work in your favour though as other people who might otherwise have bid on certain items haven't seen them.


----------



## donwilwol

> It looks like an Atkins to me, Brian, and I think it could be the No. 400.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - summerfi


That was my first thought as well.


----------



## ErikF

*Bob*,

It appears that someone shot that saw plate with a shotgun, even hung it up with some steel wire. Bold move deciding to sell such a gem.

*Max*,

Are you using pine for your saw handles? If so, how has it held up to use?

*Brian*,

Nice work on the ratchet bars. Glad you decided to order more than one small end mill. I learned early on that it's best to buy multiples of any cutter under 1/8" that I need to do a job. I have a drawer dedicated to broken carbide.

Yesterday was my first day experimenting with the stabilization of a saw handle. I'm pretty happy with it for being a first run. Material is American chestnut.

My chain of events:
-Sawed up blocks of chestnut that have been air drying for a couple years. Material was 5" thick and not very dense.

-Resawed the material on Sunday last week, left over sized on thickness by 1/8". Moisture content was showing between 18% and 15% Stickered and stacked in front of my torpedo heater (run it a couple hours in the morning to heat up the shop).

-Yesterday I planed my board to thickness and roughed out a handle on the CNC. MC was at 6%.

-Ran in the vacuum for around two hours. It still had a little bubbling going on but the piece of paper I received with the cactus juice stated something like "If your material is not baked dry to close to 0% MC you'll get bubbles for a long time".

-Released the vacuum and left the handle submerged for three hours.

-Put handle in my toaster oven for a couple hours @250 degrees. I didn't wrap the blank so I checked it a couple times to see how "dry" it appeared.

-Once all seemed good I pulled it out and checked for flatness. It didn't move much but there was a little curve to it. Took Bob's advise and clamped the handle to a flat surface until it cooled. This seemed to work well.

With a cooled handle I went right to sanding away the excess resin (wasn't much) and then the wood. The stuff wood sanded really nicely, better than non-stabilized wood. I haven't done any machining to the wood yet but I imagine it will go well.

This is a cool process. Way to pioneer it into the saw world, Bob.


----------



## summerfi

That handle looks really nice, Erik. I have a soft spot for American chestnut.


----------



## KentInOttawa

> I ve noticed over the last few years that you have to get a bit more creative with your search criteria on ebay because sellers don t know what the real names of the things they are selling are. It can work in your favour though as other people who might otherwise have bid on certain items haven t seen them.
> 
> - Brit


I recently picked up a #2 Stanley wood shaver ;-) eBay is just one more symptom. Start to notice how many YouTubers don't know the difference between straight, level, plumb, square and flat or which dimension is length, depth, thickness or height.


----------



## Sawron

While I prefer walnut I have none large enough for them currently so I was experimenting with pine a while back. It was a way to try things without using walnut up at first but ever since finding some of the prettier pieces I had stashed away with a richer honey tone I been digging it a surprising amount.

As long as you keep the growth rings lined up properly it's been working remarkably well, outside of a couple pieces I tried where I did foolish things like put nearly horizontal rings across the grip where the web of your thumb hits (three, two, one… kerchkkk!) or tried to incorporate a neat looking knot which spoiled an otherwise functional piece… like I said, it's been working great. I soak it in honey butter (3 parts mineral oil+1 part beeswax) and go to town hacking together boxes for my mom or whatnot, no prob.

Really need to get some more of that walnut though, god it is nice to work with and so damn pretty.








Wish I knew why some of this pine comes out so much more golden brown than the rest.


----------



## bearkatwood

Fun Read for a saw nut.
https://archive.org/details/HowADisstonHandSawIsMade/page/n1








Posted by Bushmiller from the Woodworkingforum in Australia


----------



## DavePolaschek

> Ran in the vacuum for around two hours. It still had a little bubbling going on but the piece of paper I received with the cactus juice stated something like "If your material is not baked dry to close to 0% MC you'll get bubbles for a long time".


What I've found is that if you don't have it completely dry, you'll get bubbles for longer, and *possibly* get some of that water going to steam and pushing out resin when you bake to set it (if the vacuum didn't pull it all out). This can end up being a chunk that's just normal wood. Not bad if it's not a punky section of the wood, but also not stabilized.

I've taken to baking everything dry ahead of time. 12h (overnight) @ 240 or 250 seems to do the trick for most stuff, but I've also been stabilizing for knife scales, and have been working with nothing larger than 1-5/8 square, and often with 3/4×1-1/2×6 pieces.

And if I'm doing a two-color,I don't worry about baking as much. Baking to cure the first color and juice will drive out the moisture, and then I'll have completely dry wood when I pull vacuum on the second color.


----------



## ErikF

Dave,

I am going to try baking the next set of blanks to see what differences I notice. I may have to run some sample pieces and then cut them up to see if I'm getting fully stabilized wood. I started machining the handle blank I stabilized. Should have a better idea of the penetration once I cut the pocket and slot.

Brian,

That is a good little book. When I was looking more into hammering the saw plates, I really tried to zoom in on these pictures to see if there were any clues about this process. I roll the plates and will occasionally hammer on a plate in it's rough state. Spring steel is such a frustrating blade material.


----------



## DavePolaschek

Erik, it's probably fine, but the way I figure, if I'm going to put in all the "fiddle-farting around" of stabilizing, baking the wood overnight beforehand is pretty cheap insurance. The un-stabilized spots that I've noticed cutting blocks up to make knife scales have been pretty small, and letting the wood soak in the juice longer might've gotten better penetration into those last few spots, but I figure I'd rather have the oven running the night before stabilizing than have to redo a batch because I tried to cut corners. Especially if it's real pretty wood that I'm going to have a tough time replacing.


----------



## summerfi

How times have changed. You used to buy a quality hand made saw worth about a week's wages. It lasted a lifetime and then passed down to future generations. Now, you buy disposable machine made saws in boxes of 10, each worth less than an hour's wage. You use them and then throw them away. I think this may be symbolic of how the world has changed overall.


----------



## bearkatwood

Entropy will always continue as the laws of thermodynamics stated. I think this is true in nature and economics, unless if perhaps acted upon by an outside force. A force set on rekindling the idealism that if an item is to be produced, it should be produced with the thought of outliving the owner. The old adage goes "They don't make em' like that anymore" Well maybe not, but we can sure as hell try.

John Ruskin said;

"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone. Let it be such work as our descendants will thank us for; and let us think, as we lay stone on stone, that a time is to come when those stones will be held sacred because our hands have touched them, and that men will say, as they look upon the labor and wrought substance of them, 'See! This our father did for us."


----------



## summerfi

"Technological progress has merely provided us with more efficient means for going backwards." - Aldous Huxley


----------



## theoldfart

I find it interesting when people observe my work and the tools I use. They can't fathom the need to learn and the utilization of that learning, too slow!


----------



## bigblockyeti

The mega manufacturing companies have more to be gained by getting your business over and over again. The cost of customer acquisition is high given how marketed to everyone is today. It makes more sense to sell that person something disposable for X instead of something built to last through proper design, materials and pride of work gone into that something sold for 1.3X. Vehicles are the greatest example I can think of, $30000 for something that will be hopefully trouble free for 36 months, questionable & unwarranted for the next 36 months (of remaining payments) then worth 5-25% of the original price only to have the process repeat itself again. Monthly payments from you to any company are what companies are seeking. You can't just write a single check and have a cell phone and the accompanying service forever, it's all about top tier customer milking (Apple has perfected this).


----------



## bandit571

Random photo









or two









Barn sale items









Simonds panel saw, unknown rip saw…


----------



## bandit571

OK, have removed the nuts from those bolts…after making a "screwdriver" from a 1/2" Speedbore spade bit
(film @ 2300 hrs) only to find a patent date stamped into the inner face of each nut. Something about "PAT DEC 31 1881"?
Haven't removed the bolts, yet….plan is to try and remove the handle, and thoroughly clean the saw plate. IF I can get away from the "Honey-do" job jar for a while.










Before the grinder..









ground and filed to fit…









Seems to work…









Patent date….


----------



## theoldfart

Bandit, I think they are a bit older than 1881. more likely 1867 or so.


----------



## summerfi

Yes, they are Washbourne patent screws, Dec. 31, 1867. Can you see a name stamp on the saw's plate, Bandit?
http://www.datamp.org/patents/search/advance.php?pn=72766&id=7540&set=2


----------



## bandit571

Plate a bit too rusty right now….will try to clean it off, once these honey-do projects end..


----------



## bandit571

Update: can't find an etch….but…









There is a "6" stamped down by the teeth. between bottom two holes there is a "C"....

Had to find the right pin..









An empty dog hole in the vise jaw to catch the bolt as it came out..









Mr. Wentworth had a bit of work to do…









Got things all cleaned up, couple of coats of shellac, brass shined up









Then a test drive..









Not too bad?


----------



## summerfi

That looks like a pretty nice vintage saw, Bandit, even though it may be unbranded.


----------



## bandit571

There is a second saw about the same age being worked on…..slots needed to be deepened a bit..









has a small cutter at the end…was able to get the nuts loose..









But no patents dates were found. Did find square shanks, though..









And a stamp..









And a bit of an etch…









Trying to decide how best to repair the handle…









There is a second split down at the bottom edge….black friction tape is holding that one…

may try to clean the plate a bit better….as for the handle…..Disston No. 7….


----------



## bandit571

better photos of that Disston handle…









Medallion side..still has that tape..









Nut side….still with the tape..









Just old fabric friction tape….handle felt a tad "loose" though..









Hmmmm, more cracked than I thought..









Soooo…how would you go about fixing this old handle…..would rather keep the OEM handle than some newly made one….so maybe a repair is in order.


----------



## summerfi

I've repaired some pretty busted up handles, Bandit. Make sure the broken surfaces are clean, then use two-part epoxy to glue them back together. It's important to line all the pieces back up properly. Clamp lightly where you can, but I've found with epoxy it's not critical to clamp everything, as long as the pieces can't fall out of alignment as they cure. All epoxy isn't the same. What works great for me is the kind that comes in miniature "toothpaste" type tubes at Harbor Freight for a couple bucks. As long as they handle wood is not oily it should hold fine. If it's going to break again, it will be through the screw holes as you tighten it back on the bade.


----------



## donwilwol

I do basically the same as Bob. I use System 3 two part. I also tint it black. I like the way the black blends into grain better. Brown tint would probably be even better, but the tube of tint I bought will probably last the rest of my lifetime.


----------



## bearkatwood

Just got home from a nice estate sale where I found some goodies. Been wanting a Marples like this one for a while. Couple of decent miter boxes in there and an old disston. There were a ton of files, rasps and such that made it home too. Love sales like that, too bad someone has to croak to find the good stuff.


----------



## bearkatwood

I got to try out a bunch of my different joinery saws yesterday for fun. Had to click off a picture. I blame my addiction(I could quit at any time) squarely on Bob, but the rest of you here are to blame as well and I thank you for that. 
You all have shown me how fun "Saws, Using, Collecting, Cleaning and Buying" can be.
Thanks folks, it has been a pleasure to be involved in this forum.


----------



## theoldfart

So your the guy? The one who sucked the rust market dry! This may be a case of pathological hoarding. We need to do an intervention.


----------



## HokieKen

I'm thinking the same thing Kev. I think a good course of therapy for Brian would be to adhere to the following:

For each vintage saw purchased, a comparable saw must be made and sold for the same price that the vintage saw was purchased for. This way, the saw market remains balanced on the supply side as well as the monetary side. Right? Oh, and since Brian enjoys this forum so much, I suggest that the saws he returns to market should be sold herein.


----------



## theoldfart

exactly, seems more than fair.


----------



## summerfi

I'm afraid Brian has crossed over the line. He is now clearly a saw collector.


----------



## summerfi

Sold on ebay tonight (I wasn't the seller or buyer). I personally think the WMC star saw is ugly, but they bring a big price because they're rare. I might make a reproduction one day just for kicks.


----------



## UnmarkedBill

Anyone have an idea what medallion I need for this 12?


----------



## bearkatwood

That one is a little different than the one I have, but this is what mine looks like. Hope that helps.


----------



## summerfi

It looks the same as this one from Disstonian Institute dated 1880's. D.I. shows 5 medallions from the 1878-1888 period, so I'd look for one of those.


----------



## UnmarkedBill

Thanks, fellas. Next question is more along the lines of advice:

I have a real nice Acme 120, it has been sharpened and set like a normal crosscut saw. From what I read on disstonian this is fairly common. I'd like to file it properly and take the set out, but I don't have the safe cant file and I don't want to damage the teeth in the process of removing set.
I could grind a cant file to have a safe back, but I'm wondering if there's someone with experience on these saws I could send it to?

(Edit: everyone loves photos)


----------



## summerfi

I've never sharpened one myself, and I don't know of anyone who has sharpened one in the proper way with the special cant saw file. Trying to take the set out would likely break teeth, so your plan to file the teeth off may be the best way. However, it looks like the saw plate is getting pretty narrow already. You might ask on the Facebook saw group. https://www.facebook.com/groups/857101454366905/


----------



## UnmarkedBill

Thanks, Bob. There is only probably .005" of set, I figured the best thought is to leave it alone and see how much set goes away on its own. I'll have to do some more studying about sharpening it, I have made safe corners on a 3-sided file and I think I can smooth off the back of a cant file.


----------



## DavePolaschek

Figured it was a good day for a "using" action shot. Saw made by some "Florip Toolworks" guy. You might have heard of him. It's a half-back saw, and I find it's my go-to for doing the last two cuts when opening a box, as it's just an RCH thinner than my Veritas tenon saw, which is what I start the cuts with.

Starting with the tenon saw:










Finishing with the Florip:










Works well, as long as I remember to put in the shims before turning the box around in the vise for the final cut.


----------



## bandit571

Hmmm, might call these two done? 









Still have to sharpen the Disston No.7…handle looks a bit better…









Not too bad?


----------



## ErikF

Dave-

Nice to see the saw in action!

Bandit-
Those saws turned out really nice. What did you use to repair the crack in the handle?


----------



## bandit571

2part wood epoxy by Locktite….not the best stuff, but seems to work…..a bit messy, though.


----------



## ErikF

Here is a completed saw from the stabilized american chestnut blank. I dig it. I used nickel silver for the screws and the back is chromoly.


















I plan to do a run of saws using the chestnut for handles. I've avoided custom stuff but I'm opening up the door a bit for these saws. Should be fun.

Here is a saw I built a few days ago. The handle is a Moses Eadon pattern, screws are nickel silver, and the back is bronze.


----------



## donwilwol

Your turning out some real beauties Erik.


----------



## DavePolaschek

Glad to show it, Erik. It gets quite a bit of use.

Beautiful chestnut-handled saw, too. I stabilized some pretty spalted birch yesterday. I'll probably blog about it some time in the next few days. Once dried, before stabilizing, it was almost as light as balsa. Not sure exactly what it'll become yet.


----------



## JADobson

Dang I love those Moses Eadon handles. IMHO some of the best ones out there. I used that pattern on a gent saw conversion project a while ago.


----------



## UnmarkedBill

Next dumb question: is this a 22" saw or a 26" saw?


----------



## summerfi

There are no dumb questions around here. It's a 22" panel saw. Saws length is measured along the toothline. Under 24" are called panel saws, usually with 3 screws in the handle. 24" and above are full size handsaws, usually with 4 or more screws. Saws come in 2" increments.


----------



## UnmarkedBill

What about this no.7 that looks like 20 1/2"?


----------



## summerfi

The heel on the No. 7 is curved. On this saw, the toothline is worn down quite a bit by past sharpening. That extends the toothline a little as it lengthens along the curve. It is also not uncommon to see 1/4" to 1/2" variation in the length of saws, even when new. So, for example, a saw that is 20-1/2" long would still nominally be a 20" saw.


----------



## UnmarkedBill

Thanks!!


----------



## Sawron

Must say Moses Eadon really did make some classically gorgeous handles, found myself inspired to play off the impression I got from Erik's and others after checking some images on duckduckgo.

























Pretty satisfied with the fanciness, though a gooey sap pocket worried me until I was able to shear it off at a growth ring cleanly so it left behind a nice dark bit of character on the back side of the horns.


----------



## P89DC

For those of you that are making saws, what steel and thickness would you use for a dovetail saw with brass back and turned handle? (I have a Foley 200, 385 and 392)

I found this product at onlinemetals.com:
Steel Shim Stock 1095-Blue Tempered Spring Steel Coil
https://www.onlinemetals.com/en/buy/cold-roll/steel-shim-stock-1095-blue-tempered-spring-steel-coil/pid/16620









Do you makers have a any sheet metal tools such as a roller or a combo machine:


----------



## HokieKen

P89DC, I'm no saw maker but for production makers, I feel sure they use stamps/sheers to cut their plates. Or, have a source to get their plates custom cut to size.

Regarding your material though, I think .007 is way too thin for any saw. .015 is about the thinnest I would think would be stiff enough and allow for effective teeth to be filed in. But, as I said, I'm no maker so I'm curious what the big boys have to say…


----------



## bearkatwood

Big boy maybe  I could loose a few pounds, but you are right on the .015 thickness being about as thin as you may want to go. Most saws will run between .018-.025 I have found it best to find the steel you want in the correct width, trimming it to width can be wasteful and time consuming. To answer your question, a gent saw with turned handle and brass back should get a .015 or .018 plate.
That shear/brake/slip roller combo is a nice toy. I haven't used my slip roller too much in saw production, but I have heard they work well for pinching the slotted backs up before assembly though it would need to be a bit beefier than that one. The shear should work fine for crosscutting the steel as long as it wasn't too thick, but if you wanted to cut the metal lengthwise it wouldn't do very long chunks. The brake as well could only do a certain length( again whatever the width of the press is) and I am pretty sure it won't have enough force to bend a back or stamp anything. For a hobbyist it may be a nice tool to use for metal projects but for saw making you want something a little more substantial. I use a 20ton press with a brake insert and a large shear. That and a drill press should get you going. I got my press from harbor freight and the insert from Swag offroad tools. You could always order parts from a few different places to try your hand at saw making without investing in the tool. Or you could rip apart an old thrift store saw and repurpose the parts. I have even seen saws made from old drywall scrapers.

Resources;

Blackburn Tools

Two Guys In A Garage

tools for working wood
Hope that helps


----------



## P89DC

Thanks for your help! The link is to 0.015 spring shim stock, didn't realize the picture didn't match.

I've got a few crummy modern saws to start on but I'm mapping out the next steps. That 3in1 is rated for 20gauge (as are most of the Grizzly sheet metal tools regardless of width capacity). That wouldn't be enough for 28g and 24g?

Hey, I have a 20t press, I didn't know about press brakes, thanks.

I'm not planning to purchase sheet metal tools just yet.. I do have a Jet 17" drill press already and I can cut non-ferrous metal on my mitre saw with negative hook blade. Here I go, wish me luck!i


----------



## bandit571

Will have a "Project Saw" to rehab, once the other jobs are done…


















Hmmm….tried a soak with PBBlaster for a while…









Then took an old, WIDE chisel and scraped the gunk right off….start to see and etch….something about made expressly for…..Goodell Pratt Company…...Toolsmiths….Greenfield MA USA….label screw is a disston & sons…phila, and has their stampings on the spine….









There is this notch out on the end of the plate….saw is a 5" x 28" Disston No.4…except the location of the label screw is different….

May either repair, or replace the 4 bolt handle…. saw is a $1 garage sale find…


----------



## HokieKen

> Thanks for your help! The link is to 0.015 spring shim stock, didn t realize the picture didn t match.
> 
> I ve got a few crummy modern saws to start on but I m mapping out the next steps. That 3in1 is rated for 20gauge (as are most of the Grizzly sheet metal tools regardless of width capacity). That wouldn t be enough for 28g and 24g?
> 
> Hey, I have a 20t press, I didn t know about press brakes, thanks.
> 
> I m not planning to purchase sheet metal tools just yet.. I do have a Jet 17" drill press already and I can cut non-ferrous metal on my mitre saw with negative hook blade. Here I go, wish me luck!i
> 
> - P89DC


Yeah, if it's rated for 20 ga, it can do 24 and 28 fine. Just not lower numbers. Also, steel is ferrous ;-)


----------



## bearkatwood

Bandit, you sure find some good deals.


----------



## Sawron

This one was a big paint scraper and a folded over section of an old computer case door with a handle cut out of the front of a dresser and the back bolts are cut down bolts from said dresser handle:









It's been swapped several times, as have most of the ones hanging up here, which are all cut out from some of the .20 steel sheets I got on amazon and hacksawed to size, with backs I fold using an improvised brake built out of some old heavy table legs and door hinges I clamp the crap out of with big C-clamps.

I did have to make a weird little saw-plane sorta rig for the hacksaw blades so I can get a nice clean stroke along my guides without having to worry about the actual hacksaw frame dinging up the metal and getting in the way.









Big fancy tools are great if you have them, if not, it's just a matter of how willing you are to screw up and improvise and screw up and finally hit on a nice set up to play with.


----------



## bandit571

Wasn't worth the $2 asking price….plate had seen way too many sharpenings,,,,and was very "floppy"...









might be the wrong medallion…..says Diamond Edge on it….









Not much here, either…


----------



## summerfi

Bandit, you could flip that Atkins handle and screws on ebay for close to 10x the asking price. That's not a real common handle with the AAA embossed in the wood.


----------



## HokieKen

Is it just me or is Bandit the king of rust hunting? He gets better hauls on a weekly basis than I can find in a year! Atta boy Bandit ;-)


----------



## KentInOttawa

+1



> Is it just me or is Bandit the king of rust hunting? He gets better hauls on a weekly basis than I can find in a year! Atta boy Bandit ;-)
> 
> - HokieKen


----------



## summerfi

Probably no one here will read the scientific paper linked below. I read the abstract and conclusions, but couldn't handle the rest. But I did want to let you know that *scientists have now proven that rip teeth cut best along the grain and crosscut teeth cut best across the grain*. As I scanned the article, in my mind's eye I was seeing the humorous sight of a couple of young scientists in lab coats, thick glass, pens in their pocket protectors, slide rules (or modern equivalent) in hand, devoutly seeking to discover what woodworkers have known since the medieval period.
 
Operational Performance of Individual Handsaw Teeth


----------



## JADobson

As one one who works in academia I can only wish that is what the modern academic looked like. But these authors seem to be par for the course.


----------



## Sawron

Oh dear that study seemed to lack some… erm… rigor?

Like, I'm a big fan of putting slope on steeply raked rip teeth so they end up with a little bit of a valley down the tooth line and it feels like the pull helps clear any stray fibers for the next push stroke a little easier to me.

I still do some slope with crosscut but it's mostly just because it is quieter to file and they look neat that way.

Testing with 0 degrees of slope in a day and age where we can check out that one dudes site with his plane/saw bevel infodump is silly, right?

That's not even getting into set either!

Edit to add the site I remembered: http://www.blackburntools.com/articles/saw-tooth-geometry/index.html


----------



## DavePolaschek

> Probably no one here will read the scientific paper linked below.


Just read it. But then I was a physics major for at least two of my sophomore years at college.

Interesting, and yeah, it mostly says that rip teeth work better ripping and crosscut when cross cutting, but the last paragraph or two talk about the high speed photography showing how the chip forms in each case, and that wasn't exactly what I was expecting.

It was also interesting that density of the wood didn't much influence how hard it was to cut.

Thanks for linking to the paper, Bob! I wish it had been a little better insomnia cure, but it was actually pretty interesting and I learned something.


----------



## JADobson

Best academic paper ever:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1311997/pdf/jaba00061-0143a.pdf


----------



## bandit571

Went back and bought the saw….still $2….Will see about cleaning the brass up..maybe epoxy the cracked handle, maybe…Plate is shot, has more bends than a county road, teeth are Cows & calves….


----------



## bandit571

pictures….








Note the bottom hole….









Has a hanger hole, too…









meh….


----------



## JethroBodean

Well I think I found a little gem yesterday. I walked into a 'new' antique store, but it did not really have the sort of things I am normally interested in. Then I spotted it sitting on a shelf in a kitchen stall, behind some mixing bowls. A 12" backsaw with an unusual, but perfect condition, handle. I plunked down the money and headed out the door with my prize. Once I got outside where the light was better I discovered I was now the proud Daddy of a Woodrough & McParlin Backsaw. Seems to me like a steal at $25. I will be cleaning up the plate and one of the saw bolts has broken off. I need to check to see if I have a spare that will work, otherwise I'll be checking with all of you.

It has C.E.SELIN pressed into both sides of the handle and A.C.ATWOOD pressed into the medallion side


----------



## summerfi

Nice find. You don't see many W & McP backsaws.


----------



## bearkatwood

very nice find.


----------



## Sawron

I think I have a problem guys, as much as I dig the chunky little handle I did the other day I get an image of the same sort of design but all stretched out skinny and swoopy and next thing I know I've ended up with this weirdly insectoid sort of thing that reminds me of a praying mantis which I can't keep my hands off of.

































Looking at it from further back, feels like it's the kinda thicker "abdomen" grip section and the taper down to the "waist" and "shoulders" which makes the hook on the back of the cheeks remind me of folded mantis arms? Way stouter than it looks btw, the hang makes it easy to keep all the sawing forces lined up through the waist along my index finger.

Seems like a weird road I'm heading down but hey it's fun and I almost got away without sanding that one at all. Once I chopped it out with the coping saw it was just the rasp/file and a skinny little card scraper nearly got the finish how I wanted.

Kept getting some skips at the bottom rear of the grip curves and a little tearout around the cheek>hook interface that I needed to buff down with a bit of 400 grit and 800 grit on a dowel. ...AFTER I went nuts trying to reverse scrape/lightly scrape again/lather/rinse/repeat those bits where the grain just didn't like the shape I was playing with.

Those of you who like to clean up by hand after cutting them out, do you favor spokeshaves or even drawknives for the little curves, or really fine files and scrapers, or something weird like a whittling knife or little finger planes?


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## bandit571

Going to pick up some lumber Thursday….may look for a 5/4 chunk of Maple….and try to make a replacement handle for the Goodell Pratt Co. backsaw..









handle shape matches the saw in the Langdon 75 I have…









Only difference being the locations of the label screws…









Both are by H. Disston & Sons….may use the langdon one as a pattern….


----------



## bandit571

Ok…instead of some fancy Maple….









This came home, today. laying on top of that 40bf of Ash….is a 7/4×6" x 36" chunk of Ash….will need to slim it down a bit…seems to be about right for making a new handle for the GP Mitre Saw…..got to let it sit a few days, first…And figure out how to saw the handle to accept the saw plate….


----------



## AEVilleneuve

Howdy, hoping some of the more knowledgeable saw experts on here would have a bit more information on this saw:


















I recently picked this one up at a garage sale and can't find too much information on it's history, other than it's "old" and likely pre-dates Disston saws? Any information would be very appreciated.

I have zero plans of selling it, but would also like to know it's relative worth if possible.
Thank you,


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## bearkatwood

Don't know much on it, but I know it was a good find.


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## summerfi

Phil Baker did a type study on Richardson backsaws and published it in the March 2012 Gristmill. Your saw is likely from the 4th quarter of the 19th century, but if you could take clear pictures of the handle straight on and a closeup of the medallion, I may be able to date it closer.

Chandler & Barber was a Boston hardware store that Richardson Brothers made saws for. I recently traded one very similar to yours. Sharpened and in good condition, I'd put the value in the $100 - $125 range.


----------



## JayT

Bob (or anyone else that knows), does an early D-20 have any value? Saw this one in an antique store over the weekend and don't know enough about them. There is a faint, but mostly legible etch surviving under the patina.


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## summerfi

Jay, IMO the D-20 would have moderate value as a user, similar to the more common D-23. It's not a sought after collector model, or even one of the more sought after user models like, for example, the No. 12.


----------



## JayT

Thanks for the info, Bob. I'll leave it at the store, then. I don't need any more user hand saws (actually need to purge some) and just didn't know if it was worth picking up to flip to someone who would use it. I got far enough researching to know that the handle meant an early model D-20 and that was about it. Figured someone here would know a lot more. Thanks again.


----------



## summerfi

Saw making was a competitive business in the 19th century. Saw makers used ever more elaborate descriptors to make their saws more appealing to prospective buyers. The names they used for the steel in their saw plates was one example. You've heard of cast steel, German steel, and spring steel. You've perhaps heard of London Spring steel, where London was an indicator of quality rather than location. If you're a real saw enthusiast, you may have even heard of Extra Refined London Spring steel. Now I present to you a Taylor Brothers saw with Double Carbonized Imperial Cast Steel. I don't know how this differs from regular cast steel, but it sure sounds good.










I just bought this saw on ebay, so this is not my picture. I can't wait to get it in hand. The saw has three fancy etches. The first is a Taylor Brothers Adelaide Works etch. The second is a picture of their factory. The third is the Double Carbonized etch. I think the handle on this saw is rosewood, but I won't know until I get it. It has side plates and cone nuts on both sides of the handle.

I've also recently acquired a J. Taylor & Son (one of the names used by Taylor Brothers) rosewood handled backsaw with steel cone nuts. I'll be anxious to get both of these saws restored, but due to a busy summer that probably won't happen until Fall.


----------



## bandit571

We have work to do…









Brass is off, and shined up…even got the plate cleaned up..









Hmmm…checked the plate from the pattern saw..









Pattern saw?









Pattern saw does have a decent etch..









Goodell Pratt Co. saw does have a readable etch….









Toolsmith logo.

Have the blank cut out and sawn for thickness….next up will be the shaping….when I get back to the shop.


----------



## bearkatwood

Today I put the Spears and Jackson remake tenon saw together made with stabilized poplar from Bob. It ended up having a crack in the handle that needed to be pinned through the bottom, so I won't sell it. Poor me, I will have to keep it in the till for my own use. I also had a European Pear Tenon saw that I finished today too. I think I may move the small medallion to a different hole as it just looks off there. Used a small medallion upon request for this one.
Dayo de tenon, I suppose.


----------



## DavePolaschek

Pretty sharp looking, Brian! Real shame you'll have to keep the poplar handle for your own use, too. Just looking at it must be tough. ;-)


----------



## summerfi

That's unfortunate about the crack in the handle, Brian. What does it appear caused it?


----------



## bearkatwood

It is right on line of high contrast and just appears to be where the wood separated a bit. I ran a 3/16 bamboo dowel up the handle from the bottom and glued it in. I have used this before with several types of breaks and it holds really well so I thought it would work in this instance. I may go back later and plug the hole with a piece of the poplar so as to hide it. I may have to look at your blanks and try another one if you have one like this, it is really beautiful stuff.


----------



## summerfi

There are some on my website. If you see one you like, let me know and I'll send it over.


----------



## bearkatwood

Maybe I just need to make another trip over there and rifle through your lumber pile  I did like a few there but it might be a while before I could do anything with it, kind of surprised I got this one done.


----------



## bandit571

Well…it's a start..









And…









Will do a blending to get the parts to flow better….Work-in-Progress…

Drum sanders to shape the first one…maybe later today….


----------



## Sawron

So I decided the answer to hand finishing for me at least is a mix of scraping and sanding where my scraping technique hasn't yet caught up.

I love the way the wood looks more open and clean instead of just crushed into smoothness, so here's to the unsung heroes of the tool world, all the weird little scrapers and planes and such.








The weird thing on the bottom is a hacksaw blade I quartered and inserted into slots so the teeth make a half-round type of surface because that is literally the only flaw I see in the shinto rasps.

All in all I'm happy with the little razor scrapers, though one bit my thumb the other day, they fling wispy little curlicues everywhere and leave such a pretty surface.


----------



## gmaffPappy

I would like to buy a matched set of Rip and Cross Cut saws.

I need to make a few 5" tenon and other cuts in thick stock, and I don't have a BS yet. They are too deep to do on the TS. So, I was thinking, this might be a good opportunity to pick up some hand saws.

I wish I had my grandfather's old saws, but they're long gone. That doesn't mean I can't have a couple saws my grandchildren would like to inherit.

Eventually, I'd like to have a nice collection of saws, After I get these two, I'll be looking for Dovetail saws, but the collection starts with a need, and right now, this is what I need.


----------



## summerfi

gmaffPappy - Check out my website. I have a couple of saws for sale there now, and will have more in the Fall when I get more time in the shop. If you find saws somewhere else that need restoration or sharpening, I can do that too.
http://www.rmsaws.com/p/saws-for-sale.html


----------



## bandit571

handle has been repaired…









from this..to.









This..to…









Coat of stain…Disston No. 4, 5×28 mitre saw, made expressly for Goodell Pratt Company, Toolsmiths. According to the readable etch on the plate..


----------



## theoldfart

Looks real good Bandit.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Found a cool wall hanger. Looks like about 8 PPI on one side and something close to a M tooth on the other. I'm thinking I will try to display it next to my big crosscut. Someone put $5 on it with some blue paint. I don't want to disturb the patina by trying to remove it so that side will go to the wall. It has a fair amount of patina so I'm guessing it is 75 years old or more. No name or other info on it that I could see. That $5 was a yard sale price apparently. I found it in Habitat Restore for $2.


----------



## summerfi

From an old catalog. The description says: Pruning Saw, Double Edge #40. Has 8 point teeth on one side and Lightning style teeth on the other. A very fine double purpose saw. $2.35

Above is the Disston version. Here's the Atkins version.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Thank you Bob. I appreciate the information. Should make a good conversation piece. 
Thanks again,
Mike


----------



## onoitsmatt

Well I may be about to go down another rabbit hole. Going to look at a Foley 385 Retoother this weekend. Curious what I should be looking for in the machine. I know ratchet bars are hard to find. Anything else that ends up missing or broken that I should be aware of?


----------



## summerfi

Matt, make sure the punch is not chipped or broken. It may be belt driven or it may be driven by a rubber friction wheel. If the latter, they tend to crumble when they get old. You can still get a new one from Foley for around $25. Make sure the hand screws for changing the rake setting are there. Same with the little springs that hold the carriers in place. The tray that catches the punched out teeth is often missing, but that's not a big deal. You'll need carriers. They come in straight, breasted, and miter configurations. And as you said, you'll need ratchet bars. If you can find them, they go for $150 and up for a set of five.


----------



## BlasterStumps

I found a G H Bishop No. 18 skew back carpenter's saw with the winged greyhound and a script style statement as the etch. There is a wheat stalk type of chip carving. Might have to spend some time on the handle but it seems solid enough. I haven't been able to pin the date of mfg down yet. Can't seem to come up with a catalog showing a No 18. Looks similar to the No 8 but with the chip carving. It definitely has No 18 on the etch under the greyhound.

Nothing special I'm sure but, just wanted to share a picture of it.


----------



## onoitsmatt

Thanks Bob! I sent the seller a picture of the carriers and bars as they weren't pictured. He said he'd look for them. Pictures he's posted aren't very telling. Hopefully it's all there. Will probably go look at it Saturday or Sunday.


----------



## P89DC

> Thanks Bob! I sent the seller a picture of the carriers and bars as they weren t pictured. He said he d look for them. Pictures he s posted aren t very telling. Hopefully it s all there. Will probably go look at it Saturday or Sunday.
> 
> - onoitsmatt


Ratchet bars, the mother's milk of the Foley hand saw sharpening system. I can find carrier bars at reasonable cost and if you can get the seller to break them down they're cheap to ship. Another struggle I'm having is the front file holders, they're never with the filer. Are you looking at the Foley stuff in Gilbert?

I'm still looking for the 16tpi bar. If someone is going to CNC one I was thinking it doesn't need to be 36" long. A saw with 16 tpi isn't going to be that long. An 18" section would work for me.

Here's a little ratchet bar porn for your viewing pleasure. :


















And if anyone has the front file holder that is bored to "L" drill bit size I need one of those. I have extra front file holders for the smallest and largest, I am missing the middle size. Always looking to trade. It's about 3" long and looks like this:


----------



## HokieKen

I rarely see vintage handsaws come up on my local CL and if I do, they are at Ebay prices. But this Bishop looks like a decent saw and it's listed for $15 and is pretty close to my house. Is it something I should be interested in at that price?


----------



## onoitsmatt

Hi Eric, Yes going to look at the stuff in Gilbert. He said he'd look for the ratchet bars today. Hopefully he'll find them.


----------



## theoldfart

Ken, just two screws on that Bishop skew back?


----------



## HokieKen

That's all I see Kev and I don't see any empty holes either.


----------



## summerfi

It looks like a replacement handle to me. Bishops are good saws. With an original handle in good shape I'd buy it for that price. With a replacement, probably not.


----------



## theoldfart

I'd pay the fifteen easily. lots of life left in it.


----------



## Johnny7

Kenny

I share TOF's concerns.
The Greyhound was the top of the line Bishop saw. It featured, among other things, a mahogany handle (though I think there were a few years of rosewood).

Here's one of mine, for what it's worth:


----------



## HokieKen

Thanks for the info guys! Sounds like I'm gonna offer $10 and swing over and grab it if the seller accepts. Worst case sounds like I'll get some good steel out if it. Best case is it'll be a good user even with the replacement handle 

Thanks fellas.


----------



## HokieKen

Well I'll be danged. Went to e-mail that seller and spotted another saw. This is an EC Atkins and the etch says "Sheffield Speed King" with a steam locomotive. $20 and appears to have a proper handle. I don't need both of these because I just won't use em. But I'm leaning to this one because of the handle and because it's probably the coolest etch I've ever seen  However, I know zilch about the saw so figured I should tap the brain trust before I decide.


----------



## HokieKen

Well both of those saws were the same seller so I offered $25 for the pair and he accepted so I'm gonna grab them this evening or tomorrow. Don't "need" both but, at the right price I'll take em.

Still welcome any info on the Atkins. Regardless though, I'm likely to keep it. I really like the etch on it so I think I'm gonna poke a hole in it and put a clock movement in there and hang it on the wall.

Just kidding! ;-)


----------



## DavePolaschek

> I really like the etch on it so I think I'm gonna poke a hole in it and put a clock movement in there and hang it on the wall.


Make sure to paint a farmyard scene on it first. Maybe a nice red barn.

At that price, I'd be tempted to have them both as users. And I would probably eventually put a new replacement handle on the Bishop. Maybe use some of that pear I got from you.


----------



## HokieKen

Or some of that Apple I got from you


----------



## P89DC

> Hi Eric, Yes going to look at the stuff in Gilbert. He said he d look for the ratchet bars today. Hopefully he ll find them.
> 
> - onoitsmatt


And the file holders. Without all three front holders and the standard rear holder the machine cannot be used. And they're little pieces that are easily overlooked and separated from the filer. I spent over $150 assembling a set.

You can download the 385 and 387 manual here to get an idea of what you're looking for:
http://www.vintagemachinery.org/mfgIndex/detail.aspx?id=319&tab=3

Here's some front and rear file holders, the two gauges for the carriers and the gauge for the re-toother. I just picked up the final file holder I needed by asking my original seller to please look one more time (with a case of beer as an incentive). He found all three gauges and he even found the little green drawer with a little prize in it; two sets of re-toother cutter and die. His wife's grandfather owned the house and they bought it with the Foley stuff in the workshop. otherwise I think I'd still be looking for my last holder.


----------



## onoitsmatt

Thanks for the great info, Eric. I'm only planning to get the retoother if he can find the ratchet bars. I hadn't planned to get tge filer too. I don't have a lot of space (I'm not sure where I'm going to put the retoother). But thanks for the pics. I hadn't seen the gauges before so good to see what they look like. Haven't heard from him yet today, so maybe he can't find them (or hasn't looked yet).


----------



## P89DC

The re-toother height gauge dimensions are available in a pdf from the Foley facebook page downloads. Ratchet bars are the key items. Without them the re-toother is scrap.

Once you see the massive iron filer and tooth setter your old-iron heart will melt and you'll be walking away with all three. A re-toother needs a tooth setter and then with the 387 filer you'll be all set….


----------



## onoitsmatt

Ha. If only I had room for all of this stuff. Unfortunately I just heard back. He couldn't find the ratchet bars. Sadly, these belonged to the sellers late father and he's not real familiar with the machines. I feel for the guy. It's a cool set of machines. There is just so many necessary bits and pieces to make them work. They're easy to lose track of.


----------



## BlasterStumps

I still might try to fix the cracks in the G H Bishop handle but for now, I am trying my hand at making a new Walnut handle for it. It fits the holes in the saw plate but still some filing and a lot of sanding to go. It's been a while since I made a handle. Had to learn the process again. Here's what I am working on sort of roughed out:


----------



## BlasterStumps

finished the new handle. Lots of fun.


----------



## HokieKen

Oooh carving and all! That looks really great Mike!


----------



## BlasterStumps

Thanks Kenny. It's a bit amateurish but I had fun making it.


----------



## HokieKen

I beg to differ Mike. It looks as good or better than the carving on the original handles from where I sit. I think your thinner lines make it less obtrusive and more attractive than the originals. In fact, it tend to shy away from saws with carved handles just because I personally find them kind of tacky. I actually like yours though  It almost looks like a fractal burning.


----------



## donwilwol

I completely agree with Kenny.


----------



## theoldfart

Excellent Mike. I'm with the others, yours is far more artistic than most.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Thanks guys! Glad you like it.

I have to apologize for saying it was Walnut. Turns out it is Cherry wood. Sorry 'bout that.


----------



## HokieKen

We knew. We were just waiting to see if you noticed ;-)


----------



## DavePolaschek

I was still trying to figure out what kind of stain you'd used to make walnut that color.

A bit more carving than I would do, but it's a nice looking handle, Mike.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Thanks Dave, Once I got going on the carving, I didn't want to quit. : ) . 
The stain I used on it was:
Minwax 260804444 Interior Wood Gel Stain, Brazilian Rosewood


----------



## DavePolaschek

> Once I got going on the carving, I didn't want to quit. : )


I know that feeling. It's like spelling banananana. I know how to do it, I just don't know how to stop! ;-)


----------



## BlasterStumps

A little OT
I'm at the point in my little deck construction project that I can cut off the ends of the beams to just a little bit wider than the rim joist. I was first thinking that I would simply grab a handsaw to do it but then I got to thinking that since it is treated lumber, maybe it would not be so good to expose a handsaw to the treatment in the wood. I can use a sawzall. Am I over thinking it?


----------



## enjuneer

> I was first thinking that I would simply grab a handsaw to do it but then I got to thinking that since it is treated lumber, maybe it would not be so good to expose a handsaw to the treatment in the wood.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - BlasterStumps


A handsaw will provide better results than a Sawzall and will probably get the job done quicker, assuming you use a sharp 7-8 ppi crosscut. Just wipe off and wax the saw plate when you're done.

I used a handsaw for my deck project and for a large storage shed with no adverse effects. It was a beautiful Disston No. 7 gifted to me by a friend. It was a joy to use.

Bob Page
In da U.P. of Michigan


----------



## HokieKen

Yeah, I agree with Bob. It might somehow affect the saw steel if you left it on there for a while but I can't see it causing any issues if you wipe it down when you're done. I think the handsaw is the better tool for the job in this case.


----------



## BenDupre

I know when using treated lumber you have to use triple-galvanized hardware. The treatment is corrosive. Not sure about the brown treated, but the green treated contains copper which can cause galvanic corrosion with steel.

Might not be a problem at all if you clean afterwards, as suggested.

Ben


----------



## bandit571

Just get one of these..









Then it won't matter what you are cutting….Disston "Shark Tooth",,,,,used it while building my deck…


----------



## BlasterStumps

I got a small saw like yours Bandit. It used to have the shark teeth. They were practically destroyed when I found the saw so I cut the toothline and sharpened it 8PPI. I'll have to give it a try. My sharpening skills are practically non-existent though. Thanks for the idea of using that small saw. I'll see what it can do.

Thanks too to Bob, Kenny and Ben for their info on using a saw with treated wood. I'll give it a go.


----------



## CL810

Brother can you spare a…....

I picked up this Harvey Peace saw yesterday for 50 cents. I'd like to get in back in action.










But it's missing a slotted nut.










The Disston screws and nuts I have are all too big. The post of the screw is 5/32" and the nut is 1/2". If anyone has a spare nut they'd like to sell please let me know.


----------



## summerfi

Wow, 50 cents? That is something.

I wasn't optimistic I have one that size, but I looked through my stash and I do have one. PM me your address and I'll send it your way.


----------



## CL810

Thanks Bob! pm sent. Talk about two birds with one stone; I was thinking if I can find a nut I'd send the saw to you for cleanup and sharpening!


----------



## donwilwol

50 cents?? Wow


----------



## woodcox

Real nice, Andy.

Not my photo but, the dusty bit is and will be here in a few days. I know I've seen these from drawings and the fine work from Bob and Eric with a few other notable saw makers. I haven't found much reference for them. Do these have a traditional or marketed name for this open arrangement?


----------



## BlasterStumps

I'm thinking "real nice" when I look at that handle woodcox. I might have to try making one like it. That's a beauty.

I made a three horned open tote some time back but, you can easily see it is lacking those much needed design elements to make it look right. I made this one before I got my small router.


----------



## theoldfart

Woodie, I have a similar saw. The handle is riveted!


----------



## summerfi

As is the case with many saws, that saw design is of British origin, and was later adopted by American makers. In Britain they were called table saws because the narrow plate allowed them to saw out the round shape of table tops. They were also sometimes called grafting saws. However, that name was not in reference to agricultural grafting of fruit trees and the like, but of grafting one piece of wood onto another to make a joint. And just to make things more confusing, some saws of that shape were also called pruning saws for the obvious use of pruning tree limbs. Saws…such a complicated tool.


----------



## Bluenote38

> And just to make things more confusing, some saws of that shape were also called pruning saws for the obvious use of pruning tree limbs. Saws…such a complicated tool.
> 
> - summerfi


...no wonder I thought it was a pruning saw (with tiny teeth) ;-)


----------



## bearkatwood

Really like the recent posts here. Been trying to keep up. I am on the other side of the planet touring Europe. Snapped this picture off at the Archeological museum in Athens a few days ago. Was hoping to see more woodworking related things, but it has been sparse. My best to you all.


----------



## woodcox

Mike, I think it's a dandy. I can't wait to see it. Only two screws, but both are medallions. Your saw looks great, I'd like to make one as well. I'll get some better pics soon.

Nice one, Kevin. It looks a lot longer than most.

Thanks Bob. I suspect it was a useful tool for many trades. I see the appeal. Yours are so nice. This one will need the very top of the lower horn filled back in. I don't have beech, other than old broken coffin planes. I did find a box of old Swede toys, not ikea, that looks to have some nice beech parts.

Safe travels and thanks for the pics, Brian. I hope you enjoy the history of that place.


----------



## woodcox

Sooner than later.

T. Tillotson & Co Sheffield Cast Steel in the middle of the plate. Stamped vertically near the heel, Premium Quality. 14" long @ 9tpi. 


















Larger medallion is a WS, 3/4" dia. Crown with arrows crossed on a shield. Possible a lion on the left and a unicorn looking goat on the right? Smaller medallion is 1/2" dia. and identical to the larger one. 


























Both rear horns are damaged and a solid old repair has been made below the upper horns, a clean break in half.

Ed: reunited.
A large rosewood 10" Tillotson square for scale.


----------



## JayT

Cool saw, woodcox. Can't say as I've seen a double medallion with the different sizes quite like that before.


----------



## summerfi

I like that saw, woodcox. Thomas Tillotson made a lot of saws for export to America. As the British saw experts say, they liked to "tart up" their export saws, hence the double medallions. For some excellent info on the British Warranted Superior medallions, see Brit's post here:
https://www.lumberjocks.com/Brit/blog/38689


----------



## woodcox

Thank you Sir, that was a great post and discussion. I was close with the unicorn goat though, I can't believe some of the detail in those old medallions. The link to your medallion archive was equally impressive. Interesting the WS rampant use mid century became an issue and regulated.


----------



## Sawron

I learned today that table saws may have been called that because they could cut the curves around a table easier, and randomly learned that my thing with uncut backs is basically the original marketing point of the frickin' D-8 or "cover-top"?

Wiiiiild, also discovered I could go from a sketched out pattern to a ready handle in an hour, and since I was paying homage to Kenyon I decided to see if I could work in my first ever nib.

















Gonna send it to my mom, prove I'm better than her other kids who haven't even tried to make a saw for her or something like that.


----------



## CravingMaple

Anyone happen to know the maker of this saw, no other markings other then the etching wonder 1902 on the steel and 10 on the handle which is not the ppi.


----------



## enjuneer

I have a "Wonder" saw much like that one. I haven't been able to determine the maker either.


----------



## BlasterStumps

I like the saw nuts used on the Wonder .


----------



## donwilwol

If Bob hasn't found and answer, you'll need to turn over some pretty big rocks.


----------



## CravingMaple

Bummer, would of been neat to know.


----------



## summerfi

Since the saw is dated 1902, that eliminates a lot of makers who were bought out by Disston before that date. You're left with Disston, Atkins, Simonds, Bishop, and maybe a few other lesser makers. The saw appears to be a secondary brand from a known maker. The 10 on the handle indicates the saw was likely owned by an institution like a school where it was checked in and out of a tool room.

It looks similar to "The Imp" saw by Disston. Disston would custom etch saws for hardware stores, so it may be the same saw as The Imp but with a different name.


----------



## CravingMaple

Very interesting! They do look very similar. Thank you for the information.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Well it's confession time…I failed at my first attempt to cut my stair stringers for the deck I am building. A little embarrassing to say the least. I must have been trying to be smarter than the calculator. : ( In the process of messing up some 2×12 lumber, I realized that my little Stanley handsaw is a better tool to use to cut the steps out with than my circ saw. In fact, I dislike the circ saw that I have so much that as soon as I can get the new blade out of it, it is going in the trash can. I have a Stanley saw very much like Bandit posted a picture of recently. I have used it for almost all the cutting that I could not do on the miter saw. It's been a life saver so far. I got a couple more 2X pieces to start over with for the stringers. No more power tools for this part, just the little sharp saw and a 4×4 block to guide it for perpendicular. I know where I went wrong the first time. With a little more concentration and the handsaw, all will be well!!


----------



## donwilwol

The only difference is between a carpenter who has screwed up a stringer or two and one who hasn't, is only one is telling the truth.


----------



## bandit571

I ain't saying a word….









that computer generated plan for stringers…was WAY off…just saying…
Circular saw is ok, as long as you do not over cut….need to finish the cuts with the handsaw…









Of course, one of these does come in handy…









Disston/HK Porter Sharktooth….teeth are not impulse hardened…


----------



## HokieKen

Stringers ain't a simple thing Mike. If I was cutting 2 stringers, I'd come home with 4 tubatwelves ;-)


----------



## Sawron

I've framed houses, mansions on golf courses even, and have no idea what the hell a stringer actually is because it was all just "bash this board to that board and bash this other board on top" stuff.

The golf course ones were neat, it's nice coming out to the job site in the morning on one, it's all dewy and cool and green with birds chirping everywhere and no cars audible.

Realized I accidentally merged something like a gramercy handle and a two lawyers handle without noticing so I had to keep tinkering with the idea til it felt less derivative.








Though I did like the first name that popped into my head of the hybrid design: Gramerclawyercy.

Also those impulse hardened saws are often only zapped on the last centimeter or so, once you knock those off and file past the brittle bits it is usually workable steel. I cut a little stanley sharptooth down to make a little six inch rip saw because I kept needing a little short blade like that and got sick of trying to work around it. Thing is super handy actually.


----------



## BlasterStumps

I cut the three stringers for the transition stairs which go from lower deck to the landing on the upper deck. Howsomever, after a test cut with the little Stanley saw, I quickly realized I was on the wrong track just using the small saw. I went to the big box store and picked up a Ryobi 15 Amp 7-1/4" corded circular saw. I put my new Freud blade in it and used it to cut the stringers. I used the little Stanley handsaw to finish all the cuts. Glad that I made the switch and am really pleased with the results. The Ryobi saw was something like $69 plus tax. I don't know why I didn't buy one earlier. Great little circ saw.


----------



## BlasterStumps

You're getting pretty good at making those open handles Max.


----------



## Sawron

Why thank ya, practice may not make perfect but it's pretty good at making better. Nice to use less valuable woods for it too.


----------



## summerfi

I posted a blog on repairing broken saw medallions. If interested, you can see it here.


----------



## RonB57

Hello to everyone here. I have not been around much. Just popping into Woodnet from time to time. Thanks for the kind thoughts.
It has been a crazy couple of years. Just not any I would like to repeat. Slowly I am starting to make a few saws here and there, as well as continuing my little Half blind dovetail tools or kerf extenders. Which ever you choose to call them, as well as an occasional gent saw. Currently trying to get some of those blanked out saws, I started a couple of years ago, finished. Clearing the slate to sort of speak. Lately I just made a few half backs, including one for myself out of infused maple. I started infusing wood for saw handles a few years back, but never really made a lot of them. Mostly for my mallets. A couple of them are on my web site home page. My favorite personal dovetail saw is infused maple burl. Just something about it. 
Currently have some Bog Oak in the tank. Last couple of winters I picked up more burls and infused them, between every thing else. Some of my gent saw handles, ( private stock ) are infused as well. Anyway If I can figure out how to post a couple of pics, I will. It's been a while. 































































Well, that was easy enough. I still have a few more half backs to make then, I will be switching to dovetails for a bit. Sometimes I really wish I had a CNC, but they just can not do what a set of hands and rasp can do yet. At least none that I can afford.  So in the mean time life goes on.


----------



## RonB57

Beautiful saw till, by the way. I'm jealous.


----------



## summerfi

Hi Ron. Nice to see you stopping by. I hope you'll return often. Those are beautiful saws as always. IMO you make the prettiest saws there are. I'm glad to hear you're back in action.


----------



## CL810

I had to share with everyone the Harvey Peace saw I posted about earlier, #476. Bob refurbished it and I could not be happier with the results.

Before:










After:










Sawing a straight line is easy with a properly sharpened saw!!


----------



## DavePolaschek

That's a darned good looking saw!


----------



## theoldfart

Truly, a great restore! Again!

Just sent Bob a small mitre saw from my 15 1/2 Langdon.


----------



## woodcox

Great work, Andy. I like that pattern. Likely a fruit wood?

Stunning saws, Ron. They look masterfully done.

Hopefully a claro clone of Mr. Tillotson to come. I haven't dropped it yet.


----------



## CL810

WC it is apple.


----------



## RonB57

Have you got a couple more pics of that vice?


----------



## woodcox

Ed. Ok. Fine work with Andy's, Bob.


----------



## theoldfart

Boy that's an eye catcher Woodie ;-)


----------



## summerfi

Glad the Peace made the trip safely, Andy, and nice to see you making it earn its keep.

That handle is looking really nice WC


----------



## bigblockyeti

That is one mighty fine looking vice!


----------



## HokieKen

Does that vise have eyes in the back of its head WC?


----------



## DavePolaschek

WC, nice vise and nice handle it's holding onto (and keeping an eye on!)


----------



## bandit571

Found for a dollar bill today…24" of Snaggle teeth…









factory clipped toe?









A very comfy handle…









With a fancy label screw/medallion….









Might be worth the $1?


----------



## DavePolaschek

Looks like a nice find for a buck, Bandit.


----------



## woodcox

Today I finished shaping the Tillotson. It fits a little better than the old and should be comfortable to use when done.



































After I finished the grip I switched to that large second cut half round file and shaped the rest with it. It's round matched the original contours exactly. It went really fast after that.


----------



## bearkatwood

I really like that design, nice work.


----------



## summerfi

Very nice WC. Thos. Tillotson would be proud.


----------



## maddogio

Wow. There is some beautiful stuff in here. I'm a user, but mostly a novice when it comes to old tools, and was hoping to get some advice. I bought the Disston saws below for $13. I wish I had taken before pics of the first saw, a WWI era D8, but didn't. I lightly sanded the blade with 320 grit and oil. The etch is pretty light, and I didn't sand to aggressively because I was wary of losing it. I haven't done anything to darken it. I was surprised at how much material even a light sanding with 220 grit took from the handle. I regret not using a lighter touch and leaving more original patina. I did a quick sharpening (I'm glad my dad showed me to do this when I was a kid, even if I'm not expert), and used it to cut some 6/4 hard maple down to length. Fun.




























I'm less confident about the 16" backsaw because it's older and in rougher shape. I'm pretty sure it was made between 1865-71 (Eagle medallion and Disston and Son mark on the steel back). I suspect it's seen little action or affection in recent decades. My tentative plan is to again lightly sand the blade. The handle has been broken and repaired inelegantly. I presume this puts the saw in 'user' grade, but I'm not sure.





































Words of wisdom here? Should I have done things differently with the D8? For the backsaw, is this a user or a collectors saw? Is it something that a relative novice should try to restore? If so, are there pitfalls to be wary of?

Thanks for taking a look.


----------



## theoldfart

That back saw is a quite a find. Inchworm stamp, one son medallion with split nuts. Maybe Summerfi will chime in the restoration aspect. I would not rush into working on it till you get some sage advice from the local saw wizards here.

Edit: interestingly the inchworm stamp with "and son" does not show up on the Disstonianhttp://www.disstonianinstitute.com/etch.html web site!


----------



## maddogio

> That back saw is a quite a find. Inchworm stamp, one son medallion with split nuts. Maybe Summerfi will chime in the restoration aspect. I would not rush into working on it till you get some sage advice from the local saw wizards here.
> 
> Edit: interestingly the inchworm stamp with "and son" does not show up on the Disstonianhttp://www.disstonianinstitute.com/etch.html web site!
> 
> - theoldfart


Thank you. Maybe the inchworm was specific to the backsaw? The Disstonian site allowed me to guess age.

About halfway down the page…

http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/backsawpage.html

I presume it's toward the early side of the 1865-71 window given the civil war era medallion.

Yes. No rush at all. I'm very much interested in learning more.


----------



## theoldfart

presume it's toward the early side of the 1865-71 window given the civil war era medallion.

I agree, Yours is the rarer, and earlier I think, of the two one son medallions.


----------



## maddogio

> presume it's toward the early side of the 1865-71 window given the civil war era medallion.
> 
> I agree, Yours is the rarer, and earlier I think, of the two one son medallions.
> 
> - theoldfart


I think it's a 1860-1865 medallion. The Disstonain webpage states this was not unusual.


----------



## summerfi

I agree this saw is from the early part of the One Son era, probably from 1865 given the H. Disston eagle medallion and the inchworm stamp. Henry Disston would have been making saws for 25 years when this saw was made.

Collector vs. user is not a black and white thing, it is more of a spectrum. What is one man's collector may be another man's user. I don't think this is a saw worth thousands, but I do think it is collectible. I wouldn't worry too much about the ineligant handle repair, as that can be re-done to make it better. The bigger question is, what should be done overall to restore the saw. Dyed-in-the-wool collectors say you should never remove the screws from an antique saw because then you can never prove all the parts are original. Some collectors even say you should never do anything to an old saw because anything you do decreases it's value. In general I don't subscribe to those thoughts, but again, it is a spectrum. If I owned the world's rarest and oldest saw, I wouldn't do anything to it either. If I owned this particular saw, I think I would restore it. Ultimately, it is a decision only an owner can make.

If you do decide to restore the saw, be thoughtful and take it slow. Everybody does saw restoration a little differently, but in each case there are specific individual steps to take, and you can ask questions about each of those steps here and receive good advice. Alternatively, you could pay any one of several experienced saw restorers if you don't feel comfortable doing it yourself. Considering the cost of the tools and other supplies you might need to do it yourself, it might not be much more expensive to have someone else do it. A proper restoration involves much more than just sanding a plate and handle. Good luck, and keep us posted on your progress.


----------



## Johnny7

> Edit: interestingly the inchworm stamp with "and son" does not show up on the Disstonianhttp://www.disstonianinstitute.com/etch.html web site!
> 
> - theoldfart


One brief reference here:


----------



## maddogio

> I agree this saw is from the early part of the One Son era, probably from 1865 given the H. Disston eagle medallion and the inchworm stamp. Henry Disston would have been making saws for 25 years when this saw was made.
> 
> Collector vs. user is not a black and white thing, it is more of a spectrum. What is one man s collector may be another man s user. I don t think this is a saw worth thousands, but I do think it is collectible. I wouldn t worry too much about the ineligant handle repair, as that can be re-done to make it better. The bigger question is, what should be done overall to restore the saw. Dyed-in-the-wool collectors say you should never remove the screws from an antique saw because then you can never prove all the parts are original. Some collectors even say you should never do anything to an old saw because anything you do decreases it s value. In general I don t subscribe to those thoughts, but again, it is a spectrum. If I owned the world s rarest and oldest saw, I wouldn t do anything to it either. If I owned this particular saw, I think I would restore it. Ultimately, it is a decision only an owner can make.
> 
> If you do decide to restore the saw, be thoughtful and take it slow. Everybody does saw restoration a little differently, but in each case there are specific individual steps to take, and you can ask questions about each of those steps here and receive good advice. Alternatively, you could pay any one of several experienced saw restorers if you don t feel comfortable doing it yourself. Considering the cost of the tools and other supplies you might need to do it yourself, it might not be much more expensive to have someone else do it. A proper restoration involves much more than just sanding a plate and handle. Good luck, and keep us posted on your progress.
> 
> - summerfi


Thank you for this information. I shall ponder.


----------



## theoldfart

Johnny, I saw that reference, but it only Henry's name, no mention of son. maddogio's saw has the inchworm stamp which includes and son.

maddogio, can you post a better closeup of the stamp on the spine?


----------



## maddogio

> Johnny, I saw that reference, but it only Henry s name, no mention of son. maddogio s saw has the inchworm stamp which includes and son.
> 
> - theoldfart


Sorry, I don't know how to screenshot in chrome. Taken from the disstonian site…http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/backsawpage.html










"Disston and Son stamps appear on backsaws manufactured between 1865 and 1871, the time when Hamilton Disston was in partnership with his father."


----------



## theoldfart

Maddogio, Johnny, thanks. I missed that reference .


----------



## summerfi

Jackson 12" open handled backsaw with apple handle. As compared to 23 other Jackson saws dating from 1839 to 1861 in Phil Baker's 2012 article, this saw seems to date to about 1849-1850. Disston is said to have started his secondary Jackson line in about 1860. There is much controversy surrounding the origin of these earlier Jackson saws. Phil has been harshly criticized for his opinion that they were made by William Jackson of Monroe, NY. I'm happy to admit I don't know.

*Before*



















*After*


----------



## BlasterStumps

My Disston D-95 and little Stanley Sharp saw were of great help to me on my deck project. Couldn't have done the stringers with a handsaw. My project is pretty much done as far as the wood goes, now for some oil and then landscaping around it and get rid of some more grass close to it. Whew! Been hot. Now maybe I can play around with some old tools again for a bit. I need to clean up a few that I used on the treated lumber, saws, planes, chisels, etc. Everyday, it seemed like I was hauling armloads of tools out to work on the deck. Didn't know I had so many. : )


----------



## bearkatwood

Picked up a few Skelton saws for the collection.





































Very well machined saws, beautiful, cut nicely. They could be a bit more comfortable to handle if I were being critical, but I am happy to have them.


----------



## Brit

Very nice Brian. Congrats!


----------



## bandit571

Atkins/Sheffield needs rehab..









Little panel saw…









Needs teeth re-done, too..









Maybe….








At least the label screw looks good…


----------



## BlasterStumps

Nice saws Brian. Beautiful work actually. Good to see Skelton Saws still doing good.


----------



## donwilwol

Well done Bob & Brian


----------



## BlasterStumps

I missed the saw Bob showed. Dang.

It did turn out nice Bob. Great repair on the horn. I like the color tone of the wood on it. Very pretty.

Just read my post from earlier. Has an error in it. It should have read: Couldn't have done the stringers (without) a handsaw. Dang again!


----------



## donwilwol

> Couldn't have done the stringers (without) a handsaw. Dang again!
> 
> - BlasterStumps


When I was making a living at carpentry, large stringer would be finished with a sawzall. Smaller ones would definitely be a handsaw as would anything with finished exposed stringers.


----------



## woodcox

NSFW.
.
.
.
Don, would this be marginally acceptable? I'll soon be into my mother's deck as soon as it cools off. I wouldn't show any pictures of it in use. 









Clearly I need more saws. A few I'd be comfortable letting out of the shop for carpentry.


----------



## bandit571

This one came from Aldi's a few years back….


----------



## DavePolaschek

As a quick and dirty, carpentry saw, the BT&C Hardware Store Saw has been a nice surprise for me. Very overpriced, but I've been abusing it pretty hard for a couple years and it's still doing the job.


----------



## woodcox

Nice to see some feed back with that saw, Dave.

Bandit, the black crap on the plate leaves it's skid marks behind. It eats though.

Also, any bottled recommends to look for to seal the end grain of the PT fir after I have cut into it?


----------



## DavePolaschek

My pleasure, WC. The only gripe I have with it is that if I'm cutting in something that wants to bind, all the printing on the sides of the blade will sometimes encourage me to wax the saw plate more often than I normally would.

I've never bothered sealing the end grain of PT [spruce|pine|fir] beyond slopping a coat or two of latex paint onto it. That seems to do the job for me.


----------



## Brit

You can use neat PVA glue on end grain. I use it to seal the ends of logs if I'm not going to split them and carve them for a while. PVA is readily available and cheap and cheerful.


----------



## bandit571

We have work to do..






















































To be continued….


----------



## Sawron

Heck, I grabbed a little 14 inch Kobalt a while back and it's needed little more than a light pass over the teeth to keep it chewing up boards for my purposes, though the handle it came with was fugly plastic crap but hey, I bought it because the steel lets out a nice "pweeooooooo" when you plink it and the teeth aren't impulse hardened.

Still can't figure out what this bit I pulled off of some unusual trim is, torn between elm and ash:


----------



## woodcox

Snug and ugly. Maybe curtains for tucking them in.


----------



## Brit

Nice Woody. What wood is that?


----------



## woodcox

Cherry mostly. There is a walnut cleat in there just for Stef.


----------



## Sawron

That a rehandled Veritas tenon saw there? Those bolts look like they offer a unique opportunity to hide a lot of the hardware but I imagine a miss shot hole through the handle would buzz like crazy.


----------



## HokieKen

I like that WC. It looks way to easy to have a domino effect though? I guess you'll just have to pack it so full that there's nowhere for them to fall ;-)


----------



## woodcox

Noted, Kenny. I haven't decided what to do there yet. Still putting it together when I get time.

Yes, Max. That one got dropped and broke the tongue into handle before I finished it. I will start another one soon. I think the kerf is bad also. It would have bowed the plate when assembled.


----------



## bandit571

Work in progress..
.








Shop Cat thinks he is helping…..

There was a problem with the tooth line being wavy….not side-to-side, but….up and down waves….some stretches I was cutting brand new teeth….still have about 6" or so to go…









But my hands were cramping too much to hold the file…..maybe later today, after all the cramping is gone, I can finish this saw? 24", 8ppi…..Sheffield by Atkins…


----------



## bearkatwood

Well of course, how can you get anything done without a shop cat?
Looks nice Bandit.


----------



## Sawron

Shop cat is pretty, that is sufficient reason to be there I think.


----------



## bandit571

$1 spent today…another handsaw bought..but…
7ppi, straight back, filed rip
Has 3 steel bolts, never had a medallion…
Open top handle. Can not use all 4 of my finger in the opening…index finger needs to go along the outside..
What I can make out of the etch, right now….came from New Haven CONN USA….something about a NO. - 17 ?
There is a "Trade Mark" above the No. 17…still trying to read the name above the trade mark..









26" tooth line…









Kind of a "plain Jane" handle…

Hmmmm….


----------



## bandit571

Block letters in the etch…..might be either BELKNAP, or…NAPMAKER….? Or…CRUSADER?

Still working on getting the letters to "pop" a bit better…Spot between the No. and the 17…..might be for the logo they used? 









Hmmmm..could be a " C R U S A D E R"?


----------



## DonBroussard

I'm cleaning up a 4×26 Disston made-for-Goodell miter box saw now. Do y'all usually remove the spine during the cleaning/rehab? I'm a little hesitant to remove it, thinking I might bend it during reinstallation.

What say y'all?


----------



## bandit571

I leave it in place…


----------



## summerfi

Don, on a regular backsaw, the plate often slips further into the spine on the toe end and partly out of the spine at the heel end. I've never seen that on a miter saw, possibly because the stresses are different when using the saw in a miter box. I don't see a reason to separate the plate and spine if they haven't slipped.


----------



## DonBroussard

Thanks, Bandit and Bob. I'll move forward with the spine on. Thanks for the advice!


----------



## RonB57

> Picked up a few Skelton saws for the collection.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Very well machined saws, beautiful, cut nicely. They could be a bit more comfortable to handle if I were being critical, but I am happy to have them.
> 
> - bearkatwood


Love the design. he does nice work.


----------



## RonB57

I'm Jealous.


----------



## bearkatwood

Thanks Ron,
I had fun today with a dovetail saw making class. We ended up with three students, which was nice. Things went rather well, we are done with handles and moving on to finishing the blades and sharpening tomorrow. 
I will post a picture of the finished works.


----------



## UpstateNYdude

Well, I seem to have hit the motherlode the other day, I found a bunch of very nice saws and planes and number of other tools. Was wondering if you gents might help me identify a few of them for me as I'm fairly new to the saw portion of collecting.
































































I'll let you start with these lol, I have a few more, but I don't want to over post the thread, I'm not 100%, but I think the backsaw is a Jackson maybe? The Disston I believe is an older saw as the medallion, split nuts and the stamp on the blade are usually found in the 19th century, but again I'm not an expert. The wheat handle I know zero about and can't find an etch and don't recognize the medallion. The guy selling his father in laws shop had piles of saws well over 150 with extra plates and handles and even a Foley saw filer with carriers. I even managed to snag a box of NOS Nicholson dbl extra slim saw files in the original box.


----------



## Tim457

Awesome score! I see a Disston #7 there from the etch. Have a look at the Disstonian website to find out more. The page on identifying saws by the medallion helps a lot. That last one is new to me, but you've come to the right spot.


----------



## theoldfart

The last saw is a BayState made by Simonds.


----------



## summerfi

One of the backsaws looks like maybe an older Disston, but need to see the medallion and maker's stamp.
The 18" handsaw is an old one, possibly a Disston, but again need to see the medallion and etch.
The other backsaw and and the handsaw in the same pic as the old one appear to be either Warranted Superior or unbranded saws.
Tim and Kevin are right about the Disston No. 7 and Bay State.


----------



## bandit571

Atkins/ Sheffield Panel saw is now rehabbed..









Which leaves the Belknap No. 17 Crusader saw to rehab. 








Found this stuff to use, to polish the plates with..









Seems to work…


----------



## summerfi

Millington & Co. 16" tenon saw made in Sheffield. According to Simon Barley's book, the saw dates to about 1820. It may be my oldest saw. A 200 year old saw deserves serious consideration before any work is done to it. I'll take the time to give it that consideration. I like to make my saws usable, but I'm not sure I want to do much to this one. Maybe replace one split nut, adjust the plate in the spine, fill in the handle crack, and sharpen it. That would probably be enough.


----------



## bandit571

Belknap "Crusader" No. 17, 7ppi, 26" Rip….is now shined up, and ready to go to work..









waxed the teeth, went a full 10 strokes…









May not need this saw set..


----------



## houblon

Summerfi: Great saw! The lambs tongue survived 200 years intact. I have a similar case where someone replaced a split nut with a nail and split the handle in the process. It has to go.
Are you taking off the handle?


----------



## summerfi

Yes, I will remove the handle. Many saw collectors don't like to see handles removed because it is then difficult to prove all the parts are original. In this case, we already know one screw is not original. It will be much easier to adjust the spine and repair the handle crack with the handle off.


----------



## theoldfart

When we get back home, BobS will be returning a mitre saw from a 15 1/2. It's 16" x 2 1/2".



















I'm promoting Bob from saw doctor to saw god.


----------



## summerfi

Thank you Kevin. I've always wanted to be on the same level as the President.


----------



## theoldfart

, can you say that here?


----------



## summerfi

Nope.


----------



## KentInOttawa

> Thank you Kevin. I ve always wanted to be on the same level as the President.
> 
> - summerfi


And here I thought that you were above that ;-)


----------



## BlasterStumps

Just bought this handsaw. Won't know the maker for a few days. Might be a Simmon's Fast Mail. Might be one to restore.

https://www.etsy.com/listing/683281858/antique-hand-saw-blade-etched-train?show_sold_out_detail=1&frs=1


----------



## BlasterStumps

might have narrowed down some the make of the saw in the post above. It looks a lot like a Wheeler Madden & Clemson No 52 but the difference in the picture I found online is the etch.


----------



## BlasterStumps

According to what I have found online, the Patent date of June 3, 1879 is for the handle of the Wheeler saw I posted about above. Someone by the name of Holden got the patent. I think the wood is beech. Anyone know if I am right about the wood? I will need some to make repairs (If I do the repairs that is).


----------



## woodcox

A start to a claro slitting plane. Sole is black walnut with some stained Stanley's to hold. Plate is a Vaughan ryoba from Japan with some of the cross cut teeth missing. Rip side is a progressive tooth pattern still pretty much like new. 









My large Malco tin snips cut plates straight and easy.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Looks nice woodcox. Cool idea for the blade. Hope it works good.


----------



## woodcox

Once the tote is on and it works I'll decide if the knob is necessary.


----------



## summerfi

> I think the wood is beech. Anyone know if I am right about the wood?
> 
> - BlasterStumps


Mike, I don't believe your Holden patent handle is beech. When I zoom in on the pictures, the grain structure looks like mahogany to me.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Thanks Bob. Well, looks like I am hunting some mahogany. : )


----------



## bearkatwood

I second the mahogany,

I like that knob on the slitter. Nice work on that.


----------



## bearkatwood

What kind you want? I have a few varieties. Genuine, khaya, sapelle.. I could take some pictures and cut off a chunk for you.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Thanks Brian. I have really no idea which variety of mahogany it would be. I probably won't get the saw for about a week. Once I have it in hand I might be able to get it nailed down a bit more. Thank you.


----------



## woodcox

Better.









Maple baton knobs off my old twin screw vise. Some of my first turning on the drill press before the lathe. Canadian wampum under them for bling.


----------



## HokieKen

So I got a box with about 70# of taper files in various sizes off Craigslist today. Most lightly used. Maybe 10-20% will be scrapped due to rust. All Simonds and Nicholson.









Wanna guess how much they were? ;-)


----------



## bearkatwood

No 
Nice find.


----------



## HokieKen

The sun shines on a dog's a$$ some days ;-)


----------



## summerfi

Kenny, that's a lifetime supply for you and all your friends. Coincidentally, I've always considered you and me to be the best of friends. I'll PM my address.


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## HokieKen

Please do Bob. I have a miter box saw I've been needing a friend to work up for me ;-)


----------



## Brit

Wow Kenny! You could start a business with that lot. Congrats.


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## Tim457

Oh man nice score, Kenny.


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## HokieKen

Thanks guys. I gotta admit when I saw them in the FREE section of CL yesterday (sorry Brian ;-p) I was skeptical. But it wasn't a far drive and the guy said he'd be glad to hold them until after I got off work so I figured 30 minutes was the only thing I had to loose. When I got there, the guy tells me they were his Granddad's and that he remembered very clearly that the gent had explained to him that you use a file ONCE and only once to sharpen a saw then it went in the "old file" box. Well, after looking through some of them, I think it's more likely that the old man used them once per side before declaring them "used". Most show wear on all 3 faces to some extent. But very little of it.

Once I get to sort all of the ones that have too much rust out and figure out how many of what sizes I have, I imagine I'll have several to swap or sell ;-) Like Bob said, this is a lifetime supply for me and a few other people. Especially at the rate I sharpen saws. I'll throw them up here and give y'all first crack once I get 'em sorted.

It was funny, the gent I got them from said he thought about putting them on Ebay but he figured nobody sharpens saws anymore so they wouldn't sell for enough to make it worth his time. I felt guilty and said "if you let me keep a handful, I'll tell you the truth" with a grin. He gave me a grin back and said "nah, too much trouble anyway" )


----------



## bearkatwood

FREE?? wow, even if they are spent that is still amazing. Supposedly you can rejuvenate them a bit by soaking them in muriatic acid, so says Sam Maloof. I haven't tried it. Be sure to do it outside though or your tools will all have a coat of rust in the morning.
cool find.


> It was funny, the gent I got them from said he thought about putting them on Ebay but he figured nobody sharpens saws anymore
> - HokieKen


Sad but true.


----------



## HokieKen

I have "vinegar sharpened" files in the past Brian and it does work as long as they aren't too far gone. Any acid that will etch metal should work. It just eats away the rolled edges on the teeth and exposes fresh metal.

These files nearly all have some surface rust and some have rust that goes deeper. However most, if not all, still have at least a few sharpenings left in them I think. I took a few with the worst rust and put them in a Phosphoric Acid soak last night. I'll check them tonight and see how it does. I'm hoping it'll convert the rust and etch the teeth without embrittling the steel.

I started sorting some last night and it looks like the majority are 6" in slim, X-slim and XX-slim with a few 5" and some 7" and 8" thrown in with various tapers.


----------



## bearkatwood

Saw filer for sale



























Saw filer for sale


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## DavePolaschek

That's a ways out there, Brian. Cost probably a couple hundred in gas to fetch it back to anywhere civilized.

That said, I've always wanted to drive the Yellowhead Highway…


----------



## KentInOttawa

> Saw filer for sale
> 
> - bearkatwood


The seller's other ads are also quite interesting.


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## bearkatwood

Yeah, there is a pretty cheap BeMaCo and the only other Standall I have seen besides mine.


----------



## P89DC

Road trip!

How does the Acme compare to a Foley 200/387?


----------



## HokieKen

Just a quick FYI… a 24 hour soak in Phosphoric Acid seems to have worked extremely well on the files I tested. It definitely converted the rust and I don't see any signs of ebrittlement. And, it even seems to have sharpened up dull areas that were affected by surface rust. I intend to do further testing on some flat files I have that need sharpening and see if it's as effective on etching the larger teeth as it seems to be on the finer ones.


----------



## bearkatwood

The acme and foley do the same thing in pushing a file across the teeth of a saw plate, both are automated to a degree, that is about where the similarities end. The foley relies on the teeth of the plate to index the file stroke and has two shim plates that can be tightened somewhat but need to be loose enough to allow the plate to slide through as it advances. If you think of a road being graded, as the shovel pushes down the road there isn't enough weight to hold it perfectly still so you get ripples in the road from the vibration of the grader. Same thing happens on a saw plate, just on a much smaller scale. This can actually affect the way it cuts. 
The acme has the big daddy of vises that removes most all vibration from the filing process leaving a cleaner tooth. What's more, advancing the plate by hand using the large wheel on the side gives the filer the chance to even out the teeth if there are cows and calves. It is a place for the saw filer to shine if they are skilled or an opportunity to destroy a saw plate if they are not. 
So my conclusion to the question of "How does and ACME compare to a foley?" is that the ACME is a much more stout machine and meant for a skilled hand. If you are looking for an automated machine to file saw teeth, the Foley would be just fine provided it has been tuned up properly. My choice would be the acme for its heft in holding the saw plate firmly while it is being sharpened and the ability to mitigate any discrepancies left over from the toothing process.


----------



## BlasterStumps

I now have the 26" handsaw that I presumed was a Wheeler Madden & Clemson that I posted on earlier. It is a bit of a mystery though because the only name on it that i can see is _ M Barnes. I can't make out the first initial but I think it could be an S or an E. Anyway, not much I can come up with about the maker online. 
It was a bit of a surprise to see the actual size of the handle. A bit too small for my hand. My hand covers more than where the lower horn should start curving out. If I was to have it restored back to original size, I doubt that it would be very comfortable to hold. Here are a couple pictures.









A very wet and very heavy treated 2×12 at the big box store is responsible for my black thumb nail. : (


----------



## HokieKen

This is my first time filing new teeth, my first time sharpening x-cut, my first time sharpening a saw longer than 14" and my first miter saw. This is liable to be a long stinkin' day…


----------



## BlasterStumps

Good luck with it Kenny. Hope it goes well. 
I alway figured that if I had to cut new teeth in a mitre saw, I would send it to someone with a retoother. My up close eyesight is crap.


----------



## theoldfart

I solved the sharpening mitre saw question. Send 'em to Bob Summerfield!


----------



## bandit571

Sooo, what exactly is this thing, and should I pay $10 for it?









Hmmm…that IS a saw blade in there…


----------



## summerfi

> This is my first time filing new teeth, my first time sharpening x-cut, my first time sharpening a saw longer than 14" and my first miter saw.
> 
> - HokieKen


Why do you hate yourself, Kenny? ;-)

Miter saws are my least favorite to sharpen. Small teeth and thick plates just don't go well together. I recommend the Three-P method: patience persistence, perseverance.


----------



## woodcox

That saw looks like it could be used with marquetry, Bandit. Interesting.


----------



## HokieKen

Yeah, it's a pain in the nether regions for sure. But it's nice to see freshly filed teeth that look the way they're supposed to  Now after I file the second half, it'll be time for setting :-/ This saw may make its way to Montana yet Bob…


----------



## summerfi

Setting is the most frustrating part of a miter saw for me. Those little fat teeth don't bend very well.

Your teeth are looking good Kenny.


----------



## theoldfart

Bob is making me feel guilty as far as mitre saws go. I do sharpen my own rips, as long as the teeth are big.


----------



## summerfi

Ha. No need to feel guilty, Kevin. You always send me interesting saws, and I enjoy sharpening them.


----------



## theoldfart

Thanks Bob, I feel better already.
I do have a FEW more interesting saws that will need your skilled attention when my budget permits. If only the Donald would quit roiling the markets.


----------



## HokieKen

I finished filing then my wife wanted an evening out so that was as far as I got. At least I'll sleep well knowing that the hardest part awaits me in the morning!


----------



## summerfi

Send the saws, Kevin. Mexico or China or Greenland will pay for it.


----------



## Brit

Go Kenny! We're all rootin' for ya.


----------



## donwilwol

> Sooo, what exactly is this thing, and should I pay $10 for it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmm…that IS a saw blade in there…
> 
> - bandit571


That's an interesting do-hicky


----------



## donwilwol

> This is my first time filing new teeth, my first time sharpening x-cut, my first time sharpening a saw longer than 14" and my first miter saw. This is liable to be a long stinkin' day…
> 
> - HokieKen


Go man go!


----------



## HokieKen

There is surprisingly little information online specific to miter box saws. I'm setting now and have my set (Stanley 42X) so that I'm getting about .009" set (per side). I'm really not sure how much set I want for a miter saw. Am I in the ball park?


----------



## summerfi

I typically go by feel more than measurements. A set of .009" sounds like a lot to me, so I would say that's adequate. Saws require less set than many people realize. I see a lot of overset saws.

Edit: Your miter saw probably has a plate thickness of about .040". With .009" of set on each side, you're approaching 50% of the plate thickness, which is a lot of set. I don't think I've ever been able to achieve anything close to that on a miter saw. You must have a super saw set or extra strong hands.


----------



## HokieKen

Good to hear Bob  I'd a whole lot rather stone the sides than have to set all those teeth again!


----------



## HokieKen

Regarding your edit, my plate measures .048 below the tooth line and I'm getting about .064 across the teeth after setting both sides. So I guess it ended up being about .008 per side.


----------



## bearkatwood

Squish the set


----------



## BlasterStumps

I like his vise. That method works pretty well especially on teeth on thin plate. 


> Squish the set
> 
> - bearkatwood


----------



## HokieKen

Thanks Brian! I saw that a long time ago and couldn't remember who in the world did it to search for it to refresh my memory 

I think I'll test the theory (and my execution) on a shorter saw with a thinner plate before trying it on this saw…


----------



## bearkatwood

my version

This my poor mans version if you don't have a machinist vise.


----------



## bandit571

Has a slight wobble to it….


----------



## HokieKen

For whatever reason, I expected this saw to cut poorly, bind in the cut and pull severely to one side or the other. However, after a test cut in a tubafor, it cuts as well as I would have dared hope  Now to pair it up with its miter box and make a for-real test cut and see what tweeking is required…

First, I gotta clear some room on the bench which means doing something with all these stinkin' files :-(


----------



## theoldfart

Whazamatta Ken, too many bastards? 

Good news on the sharpening, congratulations.


----------



## HokieKen

Way too many Kev! I'm gonna give them all a good acid bath and oil em then sort out the spent ones and start unloading some of these things.

Thanks, I'm glad it cuts well free hand but I still have to tune the box and the saw before I can really breathe too easy ;-)


----------



## HokieKen

Test cut feels pretty decent. It's a little hard to get started and the cut isn't very smooth. However it doesn't seem to bind and it cut very straight without seeming like it wanted to pull and cut dead square to both the bed and the fence of the box. Sun shines on a dog's a$$ sime days )

Below is a picture of the test cut. It's in construction grad SPF.









I know the soft wood bears some responsibility for the crappy finish. But, I'm guessing my set is too aggressive too. After final filing and sharpening, I have .011 total set. My inclination is to stone that down per Brian's video above. Good plan? Other suggestions?


----------



## HokieKen

And, thanks so much for the encouragement and suggestions the past couple of days fellas. Sometimes it just amazes me how helpful this site can be in so many different situations


----------



## woodcox

Nice Kenny!


----------



## bearkatwood

you need a filing cabinet.. hu hu.


----------



## Sawron

You're in for some severe punishment for that one.

Meanwhile I've got a couple of pieces of this pattern on this wood ready to cut and shape once my Iwasaki curved half-round gets here tomorrow.

















Watching videos with those files being used by guitar dudes and seeing them struggle to convince themselves their lovely auriou and liogier rasps are still totally worth it is quite illuminating.

The way you can go from hogging off waste to a nearly done and clean surface with the same file is ridiculous.


----------



## Sawron

P.S. ARGH! Forgot about labor day, got another frickin' day until my file gets here…

Guess I'm stuck watching this stuff until then: 




Especially the bit around 6:30 until the end where you can see the sort of surface these things leave, why did I only recently learn about them?


----------



## JayT

Max, I've got and use several Iwasaki's, including the 6in curved half round and will be interested to see your opinion. I love them for going with the grain, not so much for going cross grain or end grain. Fair warning, use a light touch. If you lean into an Iwasaki, it will remove material fast, but also grab and tear out. Like many Japanese tools, the design works best with a little restraint.

For handle shaping (plane totes, mostly, in my case) that takes a lot of cross & end grain work, I use Corradi Gold rasps and rifflers. I also recently got the Gramercy handle makers' rasps, but haven't used them enough to form a good opinion, yet.


----------



## Tim457

> Squish the set
> 
> - bearkatwood


After seeing the Wenzloff video in the past I thought, that's a nice trick, but I don't have a vice like that. I thought of the same trick you used at the beginning of the video of using two steel plates, but I haven't tried it because I didn't want to flatten two steel plates just to test it out.

The diamond plate with paper spacer seems like a great idea. Some people talk about stoning the sides of the saw plate as if it's completely ruinous but you obviously are getting good results with it. Thanks for the video.


----------



## Sawron

> Max, I ve got and use several Iwasaki s, including the 6in curved half round and will be interested to see your opinion. I love them for going with the grain, not so much for going cross grain or end grain. Fair warning, use a light touch. If you lean into an Iwasaki, it will remove material fast, but also grab and tear out. Like many Japanese tools, the design works best with a little restraint.
> 
> For handle shaping (plane totes, mostly, in my case) that takes a lot of cross & end grain work, I use Corradi Gold rasps and rifflers. I also recently got the Gramercy handle makers rasps, but haven t used them enough to form a good opinion, yet.
> 
> - JayT


I've been using really cheap files and rasps plus a shinto saw rasp and some home made miniscrapers, but I like to file and rasp while holding the workpiece rather than using a vice, helps me feel the vibration and buzz that indicates tearout before it really gets going.

It'll be an interesting change since all my files are push cutters, but I use the scrapers both ways and the iwasaki are basically a bunch of microscrapers as I understand it?


----------



## summerfi

I'm restoring a c.1865 16" Disston backsaw for a client. The saw has an interesting etch on the plate that I've not seen before. The etch is a fairly normal Henry Disston & Son etch, but it is turned 90 degrees from most saw etches and is located about 1/3 of the way in from the handle. I've seen secondary etches on some saws that were turned 90 degrees and near the handle, but never a primary etch like this on a Disston saw. Has anyone else seen this?


----------



## theoldfart

That's a new one on me, maybe submit it to the Distonian?


----------



## donwilwol

> That s a new one on me, maybe submit it to the Distonian?
> 
> - theoldfart


I agree, but the thoughts in my head went like this. It's 5 o'clock on a Friday. I hear a bunch of guys yelling "come on Joe, we're heading to the bar. Joe says "wait, I have to etch this one last saw!"


----------



## HokieKen

The guy who etched that saw didn't know to hold his etcher in landscape mode with the volume buttons on the bottom.


----------



## woodcox

Iwaski are very sharp, Max. Maybe glove up the vise hand. Nice work there.

Or the first blurry eyed mark made on a hungover Monday morning. Interesting detail, Bob.

Haha @kenny!


----------



## HokieKen

> you need a filing cabinet.. hu hu.
> 
> - bearkatwood


LOL! Nicely played ;-)


----------



## summerfi

According to Disstonian Institute, the year this saw was made, 1865, was the first year Disston started using etches rather than stamping their saws. Maybe this was the first saw they ever etched, and then somebody said, hey, this would look better if we turned it 90 degrees and put it in the center of the plate. Seriously, vintage Disston backsaws typically didn't have etches on the plates. They were only etched if the saw was "Made Especially For" someone like a hardware store. So this saw with the sideways etch is a real oddity.


----------



## HokieKen

> ...this was the first saw they ever etched, and then somebody said, hey, this would look better if we turned it 90 degrees and put it in the center of the plate…
> 
> - summerfi


I say we all just take this as fact and run with it. So Bob has the first saw that Disston ever etched!


----------



## BlasterStumps

I'm about to get another opportunity to use my circ saw and the D95 handsaw a whole bunch. I'm doing another deck. I bought the treated 2×12s for the stair stringers but they are pretty wet and heavy so I stickered them and strapped them together. Only place I have to keep them while they dry is under my truck in the garage bay. They should dry a little there. If I measured correctly and follow what the calculator tells me, I should have some 9 step stringers cut in a few days.


----------



## JayT

> Only place I have to keep them while they dry is under my truck in the garage bay.
> 
> - BlasterStumps


Ooooooh, stair stringers with 10W-40 finish. That should hold up really well to the element.


----------



## theoldfart

Another mitre saw displaying Bob's skill.










Looks right at home, doesn't it?


----------



## BlasterStumps

I'm good with a little 10W-40 finish : ) 


> Only place I have to keep them while they dry is under my truck in the garage bay.
> 
> - BlasterStumps
> 
> Ooooooh, stair stringers with 10W-40 finish. That should hold up really well to the element.
> 
> - JayT


----------



## BlasterStumps

That's a beauty tof. Nice work Bob.


----------



## HokieKen

Nice work as always Bob!

Good thing you aren't a collector Kev!


----------



## theoldfart

, oh yea.


----------



## Sawron

Preliminary thoughts: I love this freaking file and want the pointed half-round too I think.


----------



## HokieKen

Well, here goes. I hope that Brian fella knows what he's talkin' bout! ;-)


----------



## bearkatwood

me too.


----------



## HokieKen

He do! Masking tape is .004" thick and I have a consistent .008-.009" total set 

Even though I over-set the teeth, it is encouraging that after stoning the sides I see a pretty consistently-sized bright spot on every tooth. So it may have been too much set but I appear to have at least applied it consistently. Gotta say, my understanding if sharpening saws has grown exponentially with this little exercise.

Thanks again for all the help fellas!


----------



## Brit

I never doubted you for a minute old boy.


----------



## jmartel

Count me as a +1 for loving the iwasaki files. I also have a sawmaker's rasp from gramercy, but the Iwasakis leave a way better finish.


----------



## HokieKen

> I never doubted you for a minute old boy.
> 
> - Brit


 The fella with the funny accent gives me too much credit :-(

So I made a test cut in an Ash 3×3. It was much harder to cut than before. When I got through the cut, the saw had wandered badly to one side.

I expected after stoning the side that I may need to run over it again with a file. So I gave it a light joint and started filing. Got one side done and started on the other snd noticed my fleam is WAY off on the second side :-( Not sure why other than I just got in a hurry? So I went ahead and filed all the teeth on that side to the proper fleam which of course left the teeth severely uneven. So, I dyed em up and jointed em until I have a flat on every tooth. CRAP.

About to start filing. Wish me luck…

If it don't come to Jesus tonight, it's taking a trip to Montana. The good news? I have a basically infinite supply of 6" x-slim taper files 

Which begs yet another question from the newb: Is that the right file for this 11 tpi saw?


----------



## KentInOttawa

> Which begs yet another question from the newb: Is that the right file for this 11 tpi saw?
> 
> - HokieKen


I have even less experience than you do here, but here's what Lee Valley has to say on it.


----------



## summerfi

Kenny, all roads lead to Rome, all dogs go to heaven, and all saws eventually come to Montana. ;-)

I would use a 6" double extra slim on 11 ppi. I'm sure you've watched Andy's (Brit's) sharpening video, but if not, it's the Bible on saw sharpening.


----------



## HokieKen

I have watched it Bob. I've also watched Michael Jordan play basketball. I seem to be able to emulate one about as well as the other…

You did say it's $12 to tune a miter saw and that includes shipping both ways, right? ;-)

I'm gonna take the weekend. I hate to let this thing whip me. But if it's still winning on Monday, I'll be in touch…


----------



## bearkatwood

> Kenny, all roads lead to Rome, all dogs go to heaven, and all saws eventually come to Montana. ;-)
> 
> - summerfi


too good.


----------



## Don2Laughs

Beautiful Wheeler, Madden and Clemson Xcut I picked up for a song…. got the plate in an Evapo-Rust bath while trying to get the tote in a more presentable shape. I really am into appreciating the 'spirit' of past owners and am very reluctant to alter…but this handle had red paint and I NEEDED to get that stuff off! Glad I did!! And I know the past owner is happy I did as well. I can understand doing all one can to prevent theft of such a wonderful tool….but that paint…had to go. Even though this saw cut through oak easily and straight…the teeth (cows & calves) need to be reshaped and there is a slight (bend) toward the toe of the plate. Hate to trust myself with this one…Hey Bob…would you have time & inclination? I never have gotten much response on this forum but I keep coming back…. just took a 31 year token so humbleness comes much easier, as well as patience!


----------



## HokieKen

That saw's a beauty Don. And fantastic job on that tote. The character in that wood is stunning.


----------



## summerfi

I would be happy to sharpen your saw, Don. Send her my way (All saws eventually come to Montana!). The figure in that handle is beautiful. Is it walnut?


----------



## Don2Laughs

Thanks, Kenny! I was hoping to hear a comment like that! I continued working on the handle and brought out an even more beautiful grain and luster. I'll post more pics when I get it back together. I've been collecting & restoring for a long time…. gave many a sharp saw to newbies to help them appreciate the craft. But this is, surely, the finest saw I've ever found….I want to keep & use it. The first saw I restored is a D-23 that shares the 'go to' status with a D-8. I have an old thumb hole Disston rip that gets a lot of use, too. 
Don


----------



## Don2Laughs

Thank you so much, Bob! I'll box it up & send it as soon as I get it back together. I do believe the handle is walnut. I just finished pushing the second coat of oil finish into it with 320 grit and plan to do one more tomorrow morning. Should be in the mail to you by Monday. Really appreciate the quick response!

Don


----------



## CL810

Most beautiful handle I've ever seen. 
+1->>>


> That saw s a beauty Don. And fantastic job on that tote. The character in that wood is stunning.
> 
> - HokieKen


----------



## theoldfart

Don, the grain direction is different on the handle compared to most. It seems to be parallel with the handle opening. Am is seeing "things"?

I have a lot of saws restored by Bob, you will be pleased with his work.


----------



## Don2Laughs

Kevin, the grain is typical…but this closer shot may illustrate the chatoyance of the figure….I've never see unlike this….curly walnut?
I went ahead and stripped it down and put a coat of peacock oil on it. Just want to make sure it isn't dried out for the trip to Montany! 










































Off toBob tomorrow!

Don


----------



## Sawron

> Count me as a +1 for loving the iwasaki files. I also have a sawmaker s rasp from gramercy, but the Iwasakis leave a way better finish.
> 
> - jmartel


They make such a weirdly variable buzz I've found myself getting carried away just playing around trying different approach angles/rolls/aggressiveness and gone way past my lines but yeah it's ridiculous how quickly they knock down the marks from my rasps.

Leaning towards the black handled medium half-round next I think, feel like it will basically eliminate all urges to reach for a rasp ever again.


----------



## theoldfart

Thanks Don, the wavy figure confused me.


----------



## P89DC

Those that have the iwasaki files what pitch and length do you prefer for saw handles and plane totes? I was thinking to start with 200mm half rounds in medium, fine and extra fine.


----------



## HokieKen

Bob, do you even want the tote on saws sent to you for sharpening? Seems like packing would be easier without it?


----------



## HokieKen

Done. I ain't got the skills… I've filed and filed and filed and it just ain't working. I got it so it "feels" pretty good in the cut but it leaves a crappy finish:









And that's the case on hardwoods, softwoods and everything between.

My teeth look decent (to me at least) and the toothline is straight(ish).









But when I get to closely examining, I find sections that look lime this:









So, I'll say "okay, I'm gonna joint again and reshape that section and file the rest. So I do. And that section just moves down the plate to a different spot.

I feel pretty worthless but I'm whipped and I know it. I'm gonna have to send this guy to Montana and that sucks. Not because Bob isn't great, but because I've basically wasted what precious little shop time I have for two weekends and have nothing but a shorter saw plate and a bunch of spent files to show for it.

Wahhhhh! ;-)


----------



## theoldfart

Kenny, been there done that. You aint alone and don't let this bunch of overachievers tell you otherwise. And Montana is a great place to send a saw. 

Spoken by the guy who hasn't done better than 5ppi rip!


----------



## kmetzger

Subject: Kids in need good hand saws
I teach woodturning at a non-profit school for young people here in Mexico (Have Hammer, Will Travel). Our Mexican woodworking teacher has started teaching hand tool skills: dovetails, even hand-cut box joints, etc. Trouble is, the handsaws the students have been given to work with are terrible! I watched them not enjoying cross-cutting with dull and just plain bad, cheap handsaws. What should have been a pleasant experience was frustrating and annoying.
I think the best saw for them at this point is a carcass saw that cuts well both with and across the grain. https://www.renaissancewoodworker.com/rww187-which-saw-first/

Would anyone be interested in donating some hand saws?

Have Hammer…Will Travel is a Mexican charity that teaches valuable life skills to Mexican youths and adults through woodworking and carpentry. Located on the shores of Lake Chapala, in Riberas del Pilar, Jalisco, Mexico. Have Hammer exists because of community donations and committed volunteers.
Your help is needed to maintain this valuable Program.
By making a $ donation (link below), by donating machines or tools, and/or by volunteering, you, too can ensure that this valuable program continues in place.
https://havehammer.com/ 
Have Hammer…Will Travel
To provide students with funding to attend the vocational woodworking training school.
Have Hammer…Will Travel AC is a renowned Mexican trade school program that serves as a resource for all citizens who seek to explore, develop or enhance career and technical skills and experiences in building furniture and all carpentry skills. The mission is to provide academic, technical, and social experiences so that the students can learn basic woodworking skills for exploration of career pathways, intermediate woodworking skills for entry level employment, advanced woodworking skills for professional employment, and how to maintain a well-equipped woodworking shop. The Sparks club provided funding for 15 students. https://map.rotary.org/en/project/pages/project_detail.aspx?guid=19D4BE13-8286-473B-8867-D36404FC8F9D


----------



## dbray55

Kim,

Getting older hand saws is probably fairly easy where you are and the students probably have access to them too. You may want to start by teaching a saw and chisel sharpening class. This teaches the students the care of the tools and helps them appreciate caring for the tools.

Just a thought.


----------



## HokieKen

> Kim,
> 
> Getting older hand saws is probably fairly easy where you are and the students probably have access to them too. You may want to start by teaching a saw and chisel sharpening class. This teaches the students the care of the tools and helps them appreciate caring for the tools.
> 
> Just a thought.
> 
> - dbray55


+1. If they're frustrated by dull saws, giving them sharp saws will only curb their frustration for a period. Then that saw is gonna dull and either they sharpen it or, you're right back where you started.

If there isn't someone locally who can either sharpen your saws or teach the students to sharpen them, maybe the teacher can switch to using Japanese joinery saws? In some cases, cutting on the pull makes precise cuts much easier. And, the blades are inexpensive and induction hardened so they are simply swapped out when they dull.

Also, I don't have any joinery saws but I do have a couple of vintage saw plates (Diston IIRC) that I would be willing to donate for "practice" saws should the teacher endeavor to teach the students to sharpen their own. I also have a boatload of partially-used saw files that I would be willing to donate for said class.


----------



## kmetzger

Thanks, Kenny. By "saw plate" I assume you are talking about a panel saw blade without the handle? Our students need saws to learn joinery. Wouldn't a panel saw be a bit to large for that purpose?


----------



## HokieKen

Yes Kim, these are panel saws without handles. Definitely not for joinery. And I'm glad you didn't jump on the offer, I just remembered that I already gave them away :-/


----------



## DavePolaschek

Look through the thread at some of Max's efforts. I bet a lot of them could've been accomplished with a panel saw plate and a cutoff wheel. His creativity would be perfect for getting a bunch of kids started with saws.


----------



## HokieKen

Working on a horn repair. Did I do it right? 'Cause I swear it's even less comfortable than it was before ;-)


----------



## theoldfart

Yea, you got it. A little duct tape on the corners and your good to go.


----------



## HokieKen

Thanks Kev. I knew I musta forgot sumpin!


----------



## summerfi

What did you glue it with Ken? End grain can be tough to glue, but I've had good success with epoxy. I rough the pieces up before gluing to give the glue more surface to hold. The other option would be to make a horizontal cut all the way through the horn and then glue on a larger piece with the grain. I do it both ways, depending on how bad the horn is damaged. The end grain cut is usually more visible afterwards than the horizontal cut.


----------



## HokieKen

Bob, I cut it about 15 degrees across the end grain. Just hoping to get by with minimal material removal. I'm prepared for the possibility that I may have to do it again with more long grain though.


----------



## Sawron

> Look through the thread at some of Max's efforts. I bet a lot of them could've been accomplished with a panel saw plate and a cutoff wheel. His creativity would be perfect for getting a bunch of kids started with saws.
> 
> - Dave Polaschek


Yeah, I'm broke as a joke and needed to make a loom for the missus last year so I needed a better saw than a hacksaw and just started by grabbing a cheapo stanley miter saw and hacksawing/retoothing/rehandling it. Easily my most used saw next to my trio of scrollsaw bladed frame saws (three so I can set one aside when the blades heat up and grab the next) and for the record: Pegas scroll saw blades are godly, I've YET to break one.








Definitely gotten a lot prettier and nicer to hold as a shallower crosscutting carcase saw than it was with the extra inch and a half of plate slopping around in the floppy hunk of black plastic garbage it came with.



> Those that have the iwasaki files what pitch and length do you prefer for saw handles and plane totes? I was thinking to start with 200mm half rounds in medium, fine and extra fine.
> 
> - Eric


I just ordered the 150mm halfround in medium and I'm digging the weird little curved 100mm halfround though my brain still has to finish adjusting to the different angles of attack/approach when using it, at least the safe sides make it nice and forgiving there.








Went ahead and did the little demo-comparison here, on the left bottom is my coarse cheapo rasp, left top is my medium cheapo rasp, and on the right are the same marks after lightly running the iwasaki across them.


----------



## HokieKen

I'm gonna have to get one of those handle-maker's rasps Max. I like that lil fella 

Must. Resist. Purchasing. Unnecessary. Tools. :-( I hate to not buy all those vintage saws at that price. But there isn't a backsaw in the lot and that's about the only kind I use. Anybody see anything there that makes this a lot I need at that price?


----------



## bandit571

About ready to move the saw til….cleaned out a new spot for it..









Removed this mess..









So I can rotate the til 90 degrees, and move it a few feet…from the old spot..









As I need this end for a Stanley #358 mitre box….and get that off of my bench….


----------



## Tim457

There's definitely some good looking saws in there, but I'm not one that can identify the specific models from that picture. I would definitely go take a look if it was nearby. The question is if there are any there that would be worth it to you or if you want to go into the saw business.


----------



## HokieKen

I'd probably keep the two frame saws Tim. I have more panel saws now than I'm ever likely to really utilize. I guess I could buy them and paint farm/mountain/beach scenes on them and sell them on Etsy… ;-)


----------



## bandit571

Saw till has been moved…









And about 21 saws cleaned up….old spot was covered in a slab of plywood, and some mitre boxes moved in..









Decided to bomb the place..









Tired of spider webs….


----------



## Sawron

Awww, but the spiders keep the really nasty stuff away. I always like to check the webs before I clear the old ones, make sure the creepy little ladies are eating well enough.

Always worry I'll pick up a saw and disturb one of them, but not this saw because I keep fondling it.








[Gollum Voice]My precious…[/Gollum Voice]

My birthday present (half-round 150mm iwasaki) is getting here late, was hoping it would be here tomorrow but I think it'll end up being thursday.


----------



## theoldfart

I spotted this in a local antique shop behind another not-so-interesting saw.










I think it's from 1888-1896 based on the etch and medallion 


















I don't think it's ever been used or sharpened. Filed 6ppi rip.










A really nice 7


----------



## Sawron

VERY nice 7 from the looks of it, good find man.


----------



## Don2Laughs

That's a great saw, Kevin!! Isn't it a thrill when you find gold among the rust??

Don


----------



## theoldfart

Thing was there was no real rust, just tarnish and something someone wiped on years ago.


----------



## Brit

Great find Kev.


----------



## Sawron

Got my medium 150mm half-round and it's a perfect complement to the fine 100mm curved half-round and I think the only issue I have now is just getting used to them because they're so weird compared to regular or-dare I say-ordinary rasps and files but they are so fabulous when you get the angles and thrust just right and it's like you're smoothing a piece of putty instead of filing/rasping a hunk of wood.

Been bit by bit transitioning further and further from touching sandpaper and these plus a miniscraper work perfectly for the complex sorts of curves you get in a handle, with just a bit of 400 grit to buff everything to nice shine before the wood butter goes on.


----------



## BrentParkin

I found a nice 20" Disston mitre saw that I wanted to use in a 150 mitre box. I got it for a great price $5. But it had a piece of one cheek smashed off and needed repair. I had one tiny bit of apple and used it, but clearly it is much lighter than the original.
I created a ramp and saved all I could of the original. I was able to create a little stub of a tenon on one side to give me a little more glue surface. Although this spot is not an area that gets a ton of force on it unless you are a saw abuser.
I have been rubbing linseed oil on just the patch lately and it is darkening quite a bit now. I think a little more time and it won't stand out so much. The brass was cleaned in oxalic acid but not buffed. On the bright side, I saved a saw. After a serious resharpening, it cuts beautifully.


----------



## HokieKen

Well done Brent.

I just shaped my horn repair for my miter saw that Bob S. is docterin' for me. I know you aren't supposed to glue up end grain. It handled me leaning into it with a rasp though so I'm thinkin' it'll hold  I glued Cherry to apple so I'm gonna try to stain it a little darker for a better match. It's strictly a user though so it ain't gotta be too pretty.


----------



## summerfi

Nice handle repairs, Brent and Ken.

Blending in the color of handle repairs can be difficult. You don't know exactly how it will look until you get finish on it. Lately, I've been going away from stain and more to alcohol based dyes. You can put some dye on, wait a few minutes for it to dry, then put straight alcohol on to see how the color matches. Then you can add more dye of your choice to improve the match. It's relatively easy to custom mix dye colors to get any color you awnt.


----------



## Don2Laughs

Very nice handle work Ken & Brent! Brent, that ramp & tenon took some thought and finesse. Sure looks nice…doubt I could've pulled it off! Ken that horn came out really well proportioned.

I've been visiting this handle of the WMC I sent to Bob…I really like this thing


























Can't wait to put it to test!

Don


----------



## UpstateNYdude

> Nice handle repairs, Brent and Ken.
> 
> Blending in the color of handle repairs can be difficult. You don t know exactly how it will look until you get finish on it. Lately, I ve been going away from stain and more to alcohol based dyes. You can put some dye on, wait a few minutes for it to dry, then put straight alcohol on to see how the color matches. Then you can add more dye of your choice to improve the match. It s relatively easy to custom mix dye colors to get any color you awnt.
> 
> - summerfi


What dyes are you using Bob Trans-tint?


----------



## HokieKen

Still love that handle Don 

Thanks for the tip on the dyes Bob. I need to pick up some of those anyway.


----------



## enjuneer

It is my understanding that water-soluble dyes are more colorfast than those that are alcohol-soluble. I cannot remember the name of the brand that I use right now, but have been very pleased with the results.

I have several pieces of scrap wood (apple and beech) with different blends of colors. Half of the colored areas were top-coated with my normal finish (amber shellac). I use these to match up the finished color to the original color of the handle being repaired.


----------



## summerfi

> What dyes are you using Bob Trans-tint?
> 
> - UpstateNYdude


Well, I have a bunch of stuff that I use. Keda dyes are the commercial product I have. I've also made dyes from ink jet printer cartridges (A printer can make any color you want by blending 4 ink colors, so you can do the same with dyes). I have dyes that I've made from soaking shavings from brightly colored tropical hardwoods in alcohol. I have dyes made from other stuff like aniline powders, potassium permanganate, food coloring, etc. There are a lot of possibilities if you give it some thought.


----------



## HokieKen

I've used food coloring dyes a good deal with epoxy resin. It's a good bit cheaper than the purpose-made stuff they sell for it


----------



## BrentParkin

Found a saw we have not seen around here for a few years. Pulled this out of a bin of saws in an antique store today. Rob Paul identified it for me. I could tell it was a Shurly saw from up here in Canada, but no idea of the model. Turns out this is a model called "Empress". Apparently it was their most expensive saw. Now I need to find some more apple to fix the upper horn. But I think it will turn out well.

Lots of nibs and a toothline that echos them…. what was the last sharpener thinking????


----------



## summerfi

That's an amazing find, Brent. Shurly Dietrich certainly made some unique saws.


----------



## summerfi

*The Saw*
I bought me a saw at the second hand store
It cost me two bucks; wouldn't pay no more

The handle is weathered and the horns are busted
The blade ain't straight and it's pretty well rusted

There's a disk on the handle with a little brass seagull
Oops! My bad, it looks more like an eagle

The teeth are dull; some are big and some small
From their looks they were set with a splitting maul

There's a thing near the end that a feller called a nib
He could be right, or he coulda told a fib

Don't worry if you're thinking that my saw sounds inferior
The storekeeper told me that it's warranted superior

- Bob Summerfield


----------



## theoldfart

Robby Burns would be impressed Bob, but that saw is beyond even your magic!


----------



## Don2Laughs

That takes the cake, Bob!....Is there ANYTHING you aren't good at??


----------



## summerfi

Plenty of things, Don. But there's no need to discuss them here.


----------



## Brit

I vote for Bob as the LJs poet laureate.

Talking of nibs. I was drooling on the Skelton saws site at the weekend and he was saying that the nib was useful for knowing when to reverse your stroke. i.e. as soon as you see the nib emerge from the cut, stop pulling and start pushing.


----------



## donwilwol

I'll second that!


----------



## BenDupre

> Talking of nibs. I was drooling on the Skelton saws site at the weekend and he was saying that the nib was useful for knowing when to reverse your stroke. i.e. as soon as you see the nib emerge from the cut, stop pulling and start pushing.
> 
> - Brit


most useful explanation I've heard yet!


----------



## summerfi

You may remember that I recently posted a 16" Disston backsaw from c. 1865 with an etch that is turned 90 degrees from normal. I've now completed the restoration of the saw. In the course of trying to discover how this sideways etch occurred, the saw owner and I discovered a few more examples of these odd etches. We've written up our observations in a short article that you can read here.


----------



## Don2Laughs

Just got my WMC back from Bob…..New Teeth=Now I can Smile!! I've been needing just such a rip saw for my bench work!



























THANK YOU, BOB!


----------



## summerfi

You're welcome, Don. I hope the saw serves you well.


----------



## P89DC

> I just ordered the 150mm halfround in medium and I m digging the weird little curved 100mm halfround though my brain still has to finish adjusting to the different angles of attack/approach when using it, at least the safe sides make it nice and forgiving there.


I drove 90mins one way to the "local" Iwasaki stockist and ended up buying the 150mm half round and flat in fine and extra fine (four files total). Wow, these are great. I cleaned up a rosewood tote I made using a rasp and the difference is amazing. I'm using mostly extra-fine and can't imagine when I'll need to buy the medium tooth version. You must be removing lots of material to use a medium?


----------



## Sawron

I figured out I can just lightly rest the medium on the surface and slide it along the grain to clean up saw marks and it eliminates my rasps entirely while leaving a surprisingly nice finish.


----------



## HokieKen

Nice work Bob and a gorgeous saw Don! Me next for Bob's handiwork 

Eric and Max - I appreciate you guys sharing your experience with the Iwasakis. I have been thinking seriously about some better rasps for shaping handles lately. Those seem to be the best bang for the buck. I imagine I'll end up with one before long.


----------



## summerfi

I have an Iwasaki 8" half round rasp in extra fine cut. It has a unique feel compared to other rasps, and as others have said, it takes a light touch to use it properly. There are things I like about it and things I don't like about it. Overall, I don't use it much for saw handles because I find other rasps more useful. I use primarily a Coradi for rough work, a couple sizes of vintage EC Atkins for medium work, and a selection of fine rasps and files for detailed work.

What I like about the Iwasaki 
- It can hog off a lot of material quickly. This comes in handy for rounding over the grip area of a handle. The extra fine cuts fast. I wouldn't want anything courser.
- It leaves a relatively smooth surface. You could probably go straight to a file or course sandpaper after using it.
It is substantially made, i.e. thick and heavy.

What I don't like about it
-The sides/edges of it are thick. This makes it impossible to get into corners or other tight spots. You still need a rasp that tapers to zero on the edges to get to those areas.
The sides are parallel. I find a rasp that tapers over its length works better for getting into tight spots or working on variable radii.
- The one I have seems a little big for saw handles. I would like to have a smaller one.

Bottom line - This is the only Iwasaki I've tried, so I can't speak about the other models. I'm happy I have it and I wouldn't discourage others from getting one, especially at the reasonable price. It's not the panacea for handle work, though. You will need other rasps and files to supplement it.

Edit - the dashes in my text seem to have put some of the words into italics. It's an LJ formatting thing. Oh well….


----------



## Sawron

It's hard to find the full range they offer, I didn't know about some until I checked this page out: https://www.workshopheaven.com/hand-tools/rasps-and-files/iwasaki-japanese-carving-files.html?mode=list&p=1

The little halfround curved is still weirder to get used to, but there are things I can do with it that simply weren't available outside of trying to rig up a dowel and sandpaper and pray I don't scuff the far side of a curve.

So far my biggest problem practicing with them has been having fun trying different things and not paying attention until I've whittled the chunk of wood down to a wisp because it didn't feel like I was actually removing much wood with the medium halfround but the pile of shavings and too skinny test piece suggested otherwise.

If you're pushing (or pulling, depending on the file cut) and feeling the teeth bite at all you're doing it too hard, they slice away material so easily I had to completely recailbrate my feel from normal files and rasps.


----------



## HokieKen

Kenny sharpens:









Bob sharpens:









Thanks Bob


----------



## summerfi

You're most welcome, Kenny. Glad it's working better.


----------



## woodcox

A D-12 in walnut, my first. It seems nice. 









How tall are light weight toes in these?
Ed: Is my saw prolific/commonly seen? Thanks for any input. Postwar 26" 9 tpi.


----------



## woodcox

I found all of the knobs, Andy. Two of the bolts are short so far. 









I didn't have any brass hinges. A piece of walnut screwed in down there. Holding saws by itself already in the maple jaws.


----------



## Sawron

I used some u-bolts I found in a catch-all coffee can with some of the drawer sides I repurposed since the ply ain't pretty but it's good and stout across various directions so I could do one of the japanese style wedged setups like this one mechanically: http://laborlimaetoolworks.blogspot.com/2015/07/japanese-saw-vice-finished-and-explained.html

Except with a tucked in waist so it fits between my knees comfortably because I'm a better buzz/vibration absorber/dampener than any mounted vice I've seen soundwise, and I can't imagine sharpening without being able to feel the file teeth through the body of the vice as I brace it anyways.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Woodcox, that saw looks like it could have a full plate or danged near anyway. Looks good. I have a D15 Victory with a Rosewood handle and I see on the Disstonian site that there were Mahogany handles on some of the D12s I think but your's if the first Walnut I have seen. Good find.


----------



## BlasterStumps

I had more work for my Disston D95 along with the circ saw. I had taken apart a deck and rebuilt it with new redwood so I had this old lumber left. Decided on a crib for the firewood. I know it looks awful but I live out in the rural so no one should complain about it but me. : ) . Now the work begins moving and stacking the wood in the crib.


----------



## bandit571

Saw vise needed a new holder….old one was too short..









Wentworth No. 1….added a bit longer 2×6, saved the cut off for the other side of the bench vise…


----------



## JethroBodean

> Bob sharpens:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Bob


Personally I'd go with "Bob sharpens", but that's just one man's opinion. ;-)


----------



## BlasterStumps

Had to make a saw buck so that I can cut up some of the wood in the woodpile before splitting it and stacking it in the crib.










I am going to have to touch up the teeth on my handsaw now that I cut up a bunch of that old wood. The old saw has been like my best friend the last few weeks.


----------



## HokieKen

Nice work there Mike! That's some kinda handle on that D95. That something you made or did it come to you like that?


----------



## BlasterStumps

No, I didn't make it. It is Disston made. "Disstonite". I have a few of them that are different colours.


> Nice work there Mike! That s some kinda handle on that D95. That something you made or did it come to you like that?
> 
> - HokieKen


----------



## bandit571

Gave this "No-name" panel saw a test drive..









21-1/2" long, wrong hardware, 8ppi…..vs..









Made a lot of saw dust…









Cuts a bit rough..but









Cuts fairly straight ( operator might even have learned how to saw?)









May keep the saw around, for a while…


----------



## bandit571

Lumber used was part of the saw vise rehab…









Cleaned up, moving parts got a drop of 3in1 oil…vise needed a longer plank…









So the saw teeth will be at 48" off the floor, easier to see. Bottom edge of the plank will set right on the rods in the vise. Logos on that vise?









Wentworth's..









N O . 1….









Patented APR 8 1879….
I think that will do….it did help sharpen that saw, though…









You think?


----------



## Don2Laughs

Can't quit singing praises for this beautiful & useful rip saw that Bob re-toothed & sharpened for me!! It pulled a tad to the right but one swipe with the medium diamond stone and it will split the line!


----------



## Sawron

I feel I should point out that the iwasaki's kinda got undersold earlier in the thread and I didn't realize because I was being overcautious with the teeth.

After taking the curved halfround and grabbing it more like a pencil with either my fingers or thumb in the curve on the safe side I discovered the proper way to use it on curved endgrain pieces: roll stroke it so the teeth are almost completely lined up with the local grain direction, let it slide with minimal force as you work along the curves gently to slice off tool marks like a weird mix of a whittling blade and a scraper.

Finally got the hang of doing this so I can hog off material at will with the medium halfround and switch to the curved fine halfround to leave a surface you can finish with a mini-scraper and something like a 400 grit buffing.

Very weird compared to any other files and rasps I've used, but I'm currently rearranging my workspace to relocate all the ones I skip after cutting out a handle blank because they just leave marks I'm gonna end up removing with the iwasakis.

Not big on japanese saw design, but man do I love these carving files.


----------



## Sawron

Figured I'd scrape up a display of what I was talking about (plus a gif of me having fun twirling the file around because why not?) since I didn't have any handy yet.

This little scrap practice blank had some rasp marks and saw marks still, with squared sides so I started with it.

Regular halfround: 








Scraped: 








Curved iwasaki halfround:








Scraped:









None of those are sanded or finished in any way past the scraper on the bottom halves. There are still visible cross-hatch looking file marks on the halfround side despite trying to eliminate them as I filed, and I can get them to show up some when I sidelight the scraped portion, but these problems aren't present on the iwasaki side.

Naturally this is just a hardware store file/rasp pack halfround but it seems like the wood ends up with a weird crushed look to the grain with a normal file so these are a clear upgrade for me at least.

Oh, I'm not getting paid by iwasaki or anything to say this (though I'm totally cool with that if any of you guys are out there, hint hint, still broke as a joke!) and I'm just digging the results they give on handles.


----------



## donwilwol

I know there was some discussion on stabilizing wood a while back. I've been looking at kits to stabilize knife scales. Have any of you bought the kits, or what do you use for equipment?


----------



## DavePolaschek

I have a vacuum pump and pressure pot I bought off eBay, and use cactus juice and an old toaster oven. I've got one of Curtis' chambers (a 4" diameter by 28" long one) which I planned to use to do more knife scales once I get my shop back up and running, but I've had good luck doing larger pieces in the 8" diameter pot and then sawing them down to knife blanks using the bandsaw. It's more flexible for me as I'm experimenting and learning what works for me.

Also, the 4" diameter pot won't work for saw handles or plane totes, which are things I'll be doing more of. Or I may start making stabilized moulding plane blanks. It looks like I might have a near infinite supply of spalted birch, and when stabilized, that makes a pretty looking blank. Need to actually make a plane from one of the blanks to see if it holds up to use…

Cactus Juice is kind of expensive, but I've been very happy with it, and Curtis' tech support has been great. Strongly recommend going with Turntex if you're going to buy a kit. I just wish he sold vacuum pumps too, but I understand why he doesn't.


----------



## bandit571

2 yard sales, spent $1…









Details…









Not sure what bolts was used…









Nickel plated? has a brass like sheen…









Readable etch, too…..26", 11ppi, D-8. Disston USA medallion…handle is actually quite comfy…..









needs refinished, is all. Not too bad of a morning…?


----------



## KentInOttawa

Some people just should not be allowed to have any tools. eBay ad










EDIT: I should have posted this in the Joke of the Day thread


----------



## enjuneer

>


Other than the (lack of) style, it isn't really all that different from a patternmaker's saw though. This unmarked saw is otherwise similar to a Disston No 1.


----------



## BlasterStumps

I too thought about it possibly being a homemade version of the pattern makers saw. The handle looks to have come from a double edged pruning saw.

Here's a picture of a Disston No. 1 and the second picture is one I made when trying to make something similar.


----------



## KentInOttawa

>


It looks to me like someone has taken apart a modern Handyman or Spear & Jackson knock-off, put the handle back on incorrectly AND lost the back. It does not look like something that was made intentionally.


----------



## summerfi

How much do you love your saw?


----------



## HokieKen

That's hilarious Bob )


----------



## Sawron

Why was he four-fingering it though?

I mean, I love my saws too, I'm not saying I've slept with them or anything but I have fallen asleep with one laying on my chest before.








They get lonely if not played with regularly.


----------



## bearkatwood

too good Bob, died laughing.


----------



## theoldfart

Bob, was that really you? You looked so much older when last I saw you!


----------



## Don2Laughs

BOB!!!! YOU PROMISED YOU WOULDN'T TELL!!!


----------



## summerfi

Thanks Kevin. 
I just can't keep a secret Don.


----------



## bigblockyeti

> How much do you love your saw?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - summerfi


I thought this was going to be a video about mechanophilia, I was reluctant to open it.


----------



## Brit

So are you inferring that's not normal behaviour Bob? If so, I need help.


----------



## donwilwol

Is that a vote against Polygamy?


----------



## Pimzedd

*I thought I was cured.* I had not bought a saw in a couple of years. Then I went to an estate sale today and this is some of what came home with me. They made me buy them! They were only $26 dollars total.










The best or at least the oldest of them is probably the back saw.





































The D 8 thumbhole is 28 in. long. Has a little damage on the horn. Etch is fairly visible.



















The smaller saw is also a D 8 with the 8 inside the D. 18 in. long.



















And then there is this saw. Is it a keyhole saw? That is what my Dad called them.




























And then there was this for $1. Not sure why there is a sheet metal cover over one jaw.










Oh and I bought a Stanley No. 4C smoothing plane dating to around 1900 and a Stanley No. 45 plow plane (only one cutter) for $5 each.

$37 total. Glad I went by the bank before going to the sale.

*Now what do I do about my relapse*?


----------



## summerfi

Bad news, Bill. There is no cure. The best you can hope for is to maintain by selling about as much as you buy so that you kinda sorta break even.

Nice bunch of saws, especially the backsaw.


----------



## bandit571

Just dropped off the Disston D-8, 11 ppi, 26" handsaw at a sharpening service….he checked the set…found none on the left, and quite a bit on the right. Says he can sharpen the teeth, and fix the set…..$10.

He called it a "Finishing" saw. Hmmmm…

According to the Disstonian….saw was sold between 1940 and 1949….


















About a week or so…..tis the season for chainsaws, too…..
Will refinish the handle and the bolts, after I get the saw back home…


----------



## Sawron

That long skinny looks like a compass or table saw since you could cut a wide curve with it.

I made one kinda like that for drywall for the mother-in-law recently.


----------



## CL810

I was cutting some dovetails in ash for the first time and difficult would be the nice way to describe the experience. Started out with with regular dovetail saw, a Bad Axe saw. Very difficult to cut the wood. I thought a bigger tenon saw might be the answer, it wasn't.

I then remembered the garage sale Harvey Peace that Bob had just sharpened. Cut like a dream. Same tpi as the other saws. I guess they could be dull but I hadn't noticed it before attempting the ash. And honestly, I don't do enough woodworking for that to be the case, I think anyway.

Bob Summerfield sharpened saws - Get some.


----------



## bandit571

Done with a Disston No. 4, 9ppi rip…









Wood is Ash….


----------



## summerfi

Thanks, Andy. That's a fine endorsement and much appreciated.


----------



## bandit571

Well…since that D-8 is out for sharpening…..11ppi might take a while….I guess I could make do with the Atkins Perfection No. 65….and see how 8 ppi does with Ash…


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

None better than Bob, he's Da Man.


----------



## bandit571

Ok, question:
How do I bring out the etch on a Atkins No. 65 saw…..I can read the entire etch IF I hold the saw in just the right light….Atkins' etches aren't very deep, to begin with….don't want to gun blue things up, only to sand away everything…

Saw is a 26", 8ppi cross cut….and, in very good shape….


----------



## enjuneer

Atkins etches can be tricky. The way I try to enhance an etch is to apply a gel-type gun blue on the entire side of the saw (not just over the etch) and let it dry thoroughly. Then, wrap a piece of 600 grit wet-or-dry paper around a hardwood block or a rubber sanding block and very carefully sand it down. Start with the areas away from the etch first, then go very lightly over the etch. Just one swipe at a time, wipe clean, and check your progress. Stop when the etch becomes visible. One swipe more and it might be gone.

Bluing the entire side of the saw will prevent the noticeable halo around the etch. It is tempting to try to remove the halo by more sanding, which often leads to etch obliteration.



> Ok, question:
> How do I bring out the etch on a Atkins No. 65 saw…..I can read the entire etch IF I hold the saw in just the right light….Atkins etches aren t very deep, to begin with….don t want to gun blue things up, only to sand away everything…
> 
> Saw is a 26", 8ppi cross cut….and, in very good shape….
> 
> - bandit571


----------



## bandit571

Will give it a try….when the bench isn't full of projects, thanks.


----------



## ErikF

It's been awhile since I've posted but figured you guys would appreciate this saw.

All the hardware is nickel silver and the handle a gaboon ebony. What really makes it special is the hand engraving done by Jennifer Bower. She's a very talented craftswoman and our families have become friends over the years. I was excited when she agreed to work on these parts and didn't imagine the saw would turn out as good as it did.


----------



## Brit

Very nice Erik. I like a bit of bling.


----------



## DavePolaschek

Oh golly, Erik! That's quite a looker. Please tell me that's a one-off so I don't have to think about getting in line for one. ;-)


----------



## HokieKen

I saw that on IG Erik. That's a friggin' stunner man. JB does some phenomenal work. Your part isn't too shabby either ;-)

Edit. It's REALLY nice to see some nice saw "bling" that isn't brass


----------



## bigblockyeti

She poured pimp juice all over that, it looks amazing!


----------



## JayT

I saw it on IG, too, Erik. Just beautiful work. You and Jennifer are going to have people lined up for those.


----------



## BenDupre

Saw fit for a Jewish Carpenter I know..


----------



## bearkatwood

She is a master and that is one sick sword, might as well name it excalibur.


----------



## summerfi

Spectacular Erik. You've entered a new level.


----------



## bandit571

Took a while, but..









4/4×6" vs a No. 65 Atkins "Perfection" saw….8ppi, 26"....1937…


----------



## Sawron

Dig the fancy level on the blinged out engravings too.

Had a weird little "am I developing an unusual superpower" moment earlier today.

Everyone was over visiting the missus' side of the family so I was cleaning up various projects and tweaking stuff while they were out, went to let the dog out and decided to check around the car port out front, happened to notice the saddest looking thing a saw wright can see: a big shiny and fresh pruning saw blade sitting there naked and alone, no handle, no hardware, on one of the garden tool catch-all crates.

So I grab it, check some branches and cutoffs, hack out a "long-enough-sturdy-enough-cheap-enough-to-not-wince-when-it-breaks" piece of pine into a handle for it and go downstairs to pass it to the mother-in-law and she says she had totally intended to ask me about it because she got the new blade for her fiberglass handled one but it didn't fit the mount.



'My handle-y sense is tingling!'


----------



## ErikF

Thanks for the comments. It's really a fine piece. She has agreed to work on a few saws a year…looking forward to seeing what she comes up with for design. To keep them interesting I'll need to track down some interesting handle material and exotic alloys that can me formed. Any suggestions?


----------



## KentInOttawa

> Thanks for the comments. It s really a fine piece. She has agreed to work on a few saws a year…looking forward to seeing what she comes up with for design. To keep them interesting I ll need to track down some interesting handle material and exotic alloys that can me formed. Any suggestions?
> 
> - ErikF


I'm sure that whatever you can come up with will be excellent. May I suggest marking the saws with a date and/or a serial number? They'll certainly be worthy of them.


----------



## HokieKen

> ...To keep them interesting I ll need to track down some interesting handle material and exotic alloys that can me formed. Any suggestions?
> 
> - ErikF


Two thoughts off the top of my head:

We've used a Beryllium Copper alloy that had an almost pink color to it and a kind of iridescence when polished. I'm not sure exactly which alloy it was but I remember thinking how nice it looked. I'll see if I can figure out when/what we used it for and get some information.
Anozided Aluminum can look really nice engraved because the contrast of the oxide layer and the shiny metal below gives such depth to the engraving. I don't know how hard it would be to engrave. The oxide layer is pretty hard and abrasive but it's also usually <.001" thick. The pic below is of laser etching on colored anodizing.









If you use one of our ideas, we get a saw made with it, right? ;-P


----------



## Sawron

Ok, I feel like I'm gonna regret introducing this into the discussion, but, let's be honest, at some point we've all ended up watching a bunch of those videos where people set out some live edge slabs in a frame and pour epoxy and resin and dyes and whatnot into it before buffing it all up until it glows, right?

So like, go find a handle blank you dropped which ended up with a crack somewhere that you'd need to rasp and file across to shape anyways… do some of that electric blue dye marbled through some translucent epoxy thing for the repair.

Bonus absurdity: include some fiber optic light channels up to the top of the handle so the epoxy glows from the inside when lit properly, LED's linked to button batteries which look like saw bolt medallions and activate the lights when clicked if you wanna get really absurd.


----------



## donwilwol

> So like, go find a handle blank you dropped which ended up with a crack somewhere that you d need to rasp and file across to shape anyways… do some of that electric blue dye marbled through some translucent epoxy thing for the repair.
> - Max™


I think you'll need way to.reinforce it. I don't believe the epoxy alone would be structurally sound enough. But you could maybe layer it somehow to make a mycarta type of thing that would.look cool and be strong enough.


----------



## Sawron

Bear in mind user technique and handle design geometry and such will no doubt influence where various forces are critical and where they are far less important.

I like to set up a handle and a blade(and spine if backed) mount so my thrust is going from the web of my thumb/side of my hand through straight lined up grain into the blade/spine-preferably so it points between the bolts-and I can just do minor forward/upward changes through the stroke without the force vector straying too far from that web > straight grain > bolts > active teeth alignment.

I've tried out some handle geometries where there was far more stress on the actual tote inside my fingers and even some I tried to deliberately fatten up much more than I find comfortable to hold, never mind look at.

Noting for due diligence that there was the exception of a very experimental shape where I was explicitly removing as much as I could from the neck/brow/throat/chin area before it failed right above the cheek/chin > throat/neck because the force vector slipped up out of the wood across badly aligned growth rings there. Every other handle failure I've experienced was when I tried to pull the hang angle down further and couldn't avoid pushing some with the middle of my palm or further down towards the pinky side of my hand.

Going from my very first rehandling attempt ever (on the home depot stanley miter saw that I ended up turning into the carcase saw below, actually) to a couple hours ago when I was trying to get a workable handle shape out of a very limiting bit of scrap, from the start before I knew to try to avoid it, to the present purposeful stress/strain testing, every in-use failure I've had has wound up snapping the tote either right inside my middle finger or just below it.

Then I've got things like this:









Just since I put that handle on my workhorse there I've used it enough and with some grumpy enough woods that I went from being halfway through a sharpening cycle to a resharpen a couple weeks ago and already getting close to that halfway "ehhh, not worth it to do a full pass just yet, but I'd like to get there before I cut out too many pieces like I just did" feeling.

I use the heck out of it, only my frame saws come close, but it still feels just as solid and ready as it did first time I cinched (and carefully lined up both so they both are tilted over to the 2 O'clock position by the exact same amount no it's not an obsession shut up it just has to be that way) the bolts into place and started bit by bit wiping the wood butter (3 parts mineral oil+1 part beeswax) off the grip patches on the tote so much that it actually starts to feel almost like it's drying out some days before I pash on a bit more butter and hang it back up to rest briefly.

I could probably put some dense cardboard in place of the wood between where the top of my middle finger and the bottom of my ring finger wraps around without a problem using it.

Might not hang up as well though. >.>

<.< I'm not testing with this one, I love it, but I see people working those epoxy/wood conglomerations over with power sanders and suspending them from the sorts of structural support that the weight of the whole table top or whatnot has to be withstood by the epoxy bits at least as well as the wood ones or the whole thing would just fold in half or something.

I'm sure some of you all would know better about the feasibility of a partial handle section replacement with epoxy regions, could even do it less destructively than a full break reconnection!

Get the full handle set up and ready, then go through various parts and bore and scrape out chunks here and there then fill those in with your choice of fancygoop resin/epoxy/dye/whatever!


----------



## summerfi

A client in New York sent me a few (cough) saws to work on. They need everything from just sharpening to plate replacement, to new handles, to partial and full restoration. This should take up a good part of the winter!










He had these well packaged into two large parcels, one of which I could hardly move by myself. Here's a pic just of the packing materials. Actually one parcel was a box within a box and the other parcel was a wooden box within a box within another box.


----------



## bearkatwood

Dang Bob, you are going to busy for a while.


----------



## HokieKen

Hey! No fair! What if the rest of us need a saw sharpened before the snow melts? :-(

That's a lot of backsaws and a lot of tiny teeth to look at Bob


----------



## theoldfart

Bob, I don't feel guilty about sending my mitre saws any more. -


----------



## Brit

Heck Bob! That's a lot of work. Are they all Disstons?


----------



## summerfi

No need to feel guilty, Kevin. Just please don't send any right away! Lol

Mostly Disstons, Andy. There's a Simonds, a Peace, a Darlington (Peace 2nd brand) and 2 or 3 British saws.


----------



## bandit571

This Disston D-8 came home from the Sharpening Service….









Gave it a test drive….then gave it a clean up…









Disston D-8, 11ppi, 26" length, mid 1940s…with readable etch. 
Spent $1 for the saw….sharpened cost me $10…..cuts like a new saw should.

Place is over in Piqua, OH. Chuck's Sharpening Service.


----------



## summerfi

If you need a good saw, I've posted these for sale on my website this evening. Christmas is right around the corner.


----------



## BlasterStumps

I was coming back from the guild mtg this morning and decided to check out a local antique place. I found these items. One of them is a saw vise that says something like Foot No 3 on it. Not sure the brand. It is missing the clamp screw. Hopefully it won't be too weird of a thread. I'll give it a clean and take a couple more pics of it.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Bob, those are beauties!!


----------



## theoldfart

BOB, nice catch on the Yankee drill.


----------



## BlasterStumps

that old saw vise I showed looks somewhat like Bandit's Wentworth's vise. Don't see any maker's info on it though. Might have been on the wing part of the clamp screw, which has gone missing.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Just to share a little more info on the other tools, they are left to right:
L.S. Starrett No 13 size double square 4" 
Phoenix 3-1/2 Anvil vice
North Bros. No 30 push screwdriver
L.S. Starrett Dividers 4" (have to go back out and take another look at these, might be 6")
L.S. Starrett No 25 Calipers
What appears to be an early Stanley 65 or more likely 65-1/2 Block Plane (has the right patent dates for a 65-1/2)
and, a North Bros. 1545 hybrid drill (looks to have barely been used)

Got a few toys to play with a little later on. : )


----------



## BlasterStumps

Bob, I just scrolled up to see your line-up of saws you have ready. Wow, very nice group there.


----------



## HokieKen

That's a great haul Mike! I know
A guy who would probably buy that Starrett double square if you're inclined to sell it ;-)


----------



## BlasterStumps

"I know a guy who would probably buy that Starrett double square if you're inclined to sell it ;-)"

-Kenny, SW VA, Go Hokies!!!

I can understand that Ken. I have been trying to find one for some time myself. You can purchase new ones from a couple companies but I've been keeping an eye out for a vintage one. Glad I stopped to check that shop out today.


----------



## summerfi

Ever seen a live edge saw plate? This is a first for me. It must have come from the edge of the steel after they rolled it out. This is from a German saw I recently restored. The sawmaker must have been a frugal person. I replaced the plate since it was deeply pitted on the back side.


----------



## Brit

Never seen that before Bob. Very strange.


----------



## HokieKen

Kinda looks like the spines on Brian N's back saws Bob ;-p


----------



## BlasterStumps

I picked some more old tools today. I thought I would share a picture here because of the one item. It's a box of Simmonds 4" Slim Taper saw files. There is eight new files, 3 used files and a Swiss made needle file in the box. The other items are all L.S. Starrrett with the exception of the 4" double edged sharpening stone. Made with a sharp V edge on both sides.


----------



## HokieKen

You're on a roll Mike!


----------



## BlasterStumps

I know Kenny, I couldn't just pass them up. Cool little collection of Starrett pieces. I left there once and ended up returning for the Starrett 425, 3" sliding calipers and old bench grinder.


----------



## bandit571

maybe this Wednesday…I can go and pick up the Atkins No. 65 at the Sharpening Service, and drop of a couple 5-1/2ppi Rip saws….After I get out of the Cardio Doctor's office ( had BP issues over the weekend).

Chuck was the one who sharpen that D-8, 11ppi 26" long saw. For a $10 fee. We'll see how the 8ppi Atkins turns out….


----------



## RWE

I thought that I would post about a saw file that I picked up this weekend at a flea market. I sent an email to Summerfi and this is his response to my question about the two unusual files that I found:

The saw with the rounded edge is for sharpening one and two man crosscut saws. They are called crosscut files or Great American files. Great American was one of the tooth patterns used on crosscut saws. Here are a couple of links.




https://www.shedtherapy.com/product/great-american-file/

The large triangular file is probably more of a large machinist file rather than a saw file, though it perhaps could be used on saws with very large teeth, like an ice saw.

Perhaps we will have to create an acronym "Make Great American Files Again" MGAFA
So if you, like me, never heard of or saw a Great American File, now you know. Always something new and interesting out there. The Great American is an old Simonds "Crosscut" file.


----------



## HokieKen

Is there anything about saws Bob doesn't know? We should challenge ourselves to stump him


----------



## BlasterStumps

Bob that saw plate is something. Even has been progressively sharpened, looks like. I think I would hang onto it.


> Ever seen a live edge saw plate? This is a first for me. It must have come from the edge of the steel after they rolled it out. This is from a German saw I recently restored. The sawmaker must have been a frugal person. I replaced the plate since it was deeply pitted on the back side.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - summerfi


----------



## summerfi

> Is there anything about saws Bob doesn't know? We should challenge ourselves to stump him
> 
> - HokieKen


Google is my best friend, Kenny. A very good friend indeed.


----------



## donwilwol

I had to google it. https://www.simcut.com/index.php/wavy


----------



## muskie54

i have a disston 112 that has had a few different handles on it. i want to cut about 2 inches off the back of the saw what do you think is the easiest way to cut the saw plate? i have a dremel if any of their bits will work . thanks for any advise jerry


----------



## summerfi

A Dremel with a thin abrasive disk (cutoff wheel) may work if your Dremel has enough power. It will be slow work. A pneumatic or electric cutoff tool would work better. Just a caution - the No. 112 is a skewback saw. Cutting 2" off the heel end may make the saw look weird afterwards. The first few inches in front of the handle on a skewback is straight rather than skewed. Removing part of this may look strange. The 112 is less common than the No. 12 and can be a valuable saw depending on condition. I would avoid cutting it unless absolutely necessary. Post some pictures here and we can advise better.


----------



## muskie54

thanks bob it didn't have the original handle, it had a 23 handle with the hole down lower than most handles. i can just make out the etch. i only paid 5 bucks for it. i don't see it being a saw collectors would be to interested in. i just finished making a english bench and cut the tip off a no name saw to put on the planning stop, i use a cut off bit for the dremel it was not to fun. ill take a picture tomorrow then ill see if i can figure out how to post it. thanks jerry


----------



## summerfi

I have one of these electric cutoff tools from Harbor Freight. It works very well, and with the 20% off coupon, the price is very reasonable. I mostly use a large shear now though.
https://www.harborfreight.com/3-in-High-Speed-Electric-Cut-Off-Tool-63023.html


----------



## Mosquito

When I made my hand saw, someone commented that I could also score it with the rotary tool, and then snap it, rather than cutting all the way through like I did. I haven't tried it, as I haven't cut out a new saw plate yet, but thought I might try sometime

And personally, I use a black and decker RTX-6 rotary tool. Way better than the 3000 series Dremel I bought before it (and no comparison with the similarily priced Dremel 200 series I have)

For this kind of stuff though, I like the look of that cutoff tool Bob. One thing I've always disliked about the smaller/normal rotary tools was no guard. Though I've never had a fiberglass reinforced disk break on em yet, I figure it's only a matter of time lol


----------



## HokieKen

> When I made my hand saw, someone commented that I could also score it with the rotary tool, and then snap it, rather than cutting all the way through like I did. I haven t tried it, as I haven t cut out a new saw plate yet, but thought I might try sometime
> 
> And personally, I use a black and decker RTX-6 rotary tool. Way better than the 3000 series Dremel I bought before it (and no comparison with the similarily priced Dremel 200 series I have)
> 
> For this kind of stuff though, I like the look of that cutoff tool Bob. One thing I ve always disliked about the smaller/normal rotary tools was no guard. Though* I ve never had a fiberglass reinforced disk break on em yet*, I figure it s only a matter of time lol
> 
> - Mosquito


Well either I do something wrong or I'm just lucky then ;-) I've probably had 1/2 dozen of those cutoff wheels shatter in my face. I religiously wear safety glasses when I use those things. I will say though, a pneumatic cutoff tool with a larger wheel like Bob suggested is a much better option for cutting a straight line. I've also had good luck with the Harbor Freight cutoff wheels for my angle grinder for cutting steel tubing.


----------



## Mosquito

I guess I should specify the EZ Lock ones I've never had break on me










These, I've broken plenty of (and hence stopped using)


----------



## HokieKen

Ah. Yeah, the bottom ones are the ones I break all the time. I have some of the EZ lock ones but haven't used them all that much yet. Never broke one of those either.


----------



## BlasterStumps

What about using a hacksaw?


----------



## HokieKen

That should get it done Mike. The issue as I see it is vibration. You'd have to keep moving it out of the vise a little at a time. Paul Sellers uses a hacksaw as the first step of cutting new teeth in a plate though so it'll cut it


----------



## Mosquito

I think part of the key to the EZ Locks not breaking, is that they're not rigidly held. There's some give to the mounting since it's spring loaded, so you don't just snap it off if you accidently start to get out of alignment… Anyone have a high speed camera? :-D


----------



## JayT

I would venture to say it's more because of the reinforced center. Every wheel I've snapped has gone right through the center hole. The EZ Locks, with that little bit of metal, prevent that.

We just need the high speed camera to settle this.


----------



## bandit571

This saw came home from the Sharpening Service, this afternoon…









Atkins No.65….8ppi, 26" long, breasted tooth line….etch says it is a Perfection model..









About 1937 era?









4/4×6" Quarter sawn white ash….









May be the operator…but it does cut straight, and square….









Sharpening was $10…...


----------



## Brit

Can't argue with that Bandit. $10 well spent.


----------



## Sawron

I modified a hacksaw so I could get a smoother stroke without hitting the mounts on the plate, but they work fine. Press brake is better if you have one.


----------



## Sawron

Forgot I had a picture of this little dude, needed a slightly deeper cut for my blade slot starter so I grabbed a piece of a zona saw I had cut up to make a marking guage from and ended up with, I dunno, the cutest saw or maybe just the cutest saw?
















Works nicely to boot!


----------



## DavePolaschek

Looks like just the tool for trimming toothpicks or popsicle sticks to length, Max! ;-)


----------



## HokieKen

Does this count for refurbishing an old saw?


----------



## HokieKen

Max, you obviously have some limber fingers. I don't think I could hold that handle through a single stroke without dropping it. ;-)


----------



## Brit

Ken - That won't work. The engine has to be attached to the chainsaw.


----------



## DavePolaschek

Kenny, I don't see anywhere near enough cylinders in that picture.


----------



## Sawron

Has anyone made a hand crank chainsaw yet?

Please tell me I don't need to try this…


> Max, you obviously have some limber fingers. I don't think I could hold that handle through a single stroke without dropping it. ;-)
> 
> - HokieKen


That's the trick: it grabs your middle/ring finger and it's a very VERY high tpi blade for very light cuts anyways.








I still feel more comfortable using it than I do with the little experimental handle I cut out of a slab of basswood the mother-in-law grabbed for me in a good natured but ill-informed bit of helpfulness. I had been using it as a leg protector when chiseling stuff before I upgraded my setup, so it's got a bunch of little stab and chop marks on both sides, other than that though the way the curved growth rings were set up I had to see if it could be done.








Apparently it can… and it's not nearly as squishy or flimsy as I was expecting.

I gave her a clear list of preferred types and a size guide if she ever decides to "surprise" me with a slab of wood in the future…


----------



## HokieKen




----------



## theoldfart

Hey, it is a hand tool so it can stay!


----------



## donald_wa

LJs, I need some help identifying this backsaw. It was $5 at the Restore and I thought it must be old because of the split nuts. the bolts(nuts) are small(about 7/16") and it has a WS medallion. I can find o etch or stamp. Thanks-Don


----------



## Sawron

Lord, looks like that weird schnoz trend hit Warranted Superior just like the #8 and one of those weirder Harvey Peace… Pierce… one of those saws?


----------



## summerfi

It looks like a JD Darlington, secondary brand of Harvey Peace. The spine was usually marked on Darlington saws though.


----------



## HokieKen

Sonuva….


----------



## bandit571

Report back from the sharpening service guy…..2 rip saws were sharpened…when he went to set the teeth on the older (1868 era) saw….teeth wanted to snap off, so he stopped. Other rip saw is from the 1930s, set just fine.

Son and grandson went down that way, to pick up the saws, and the GrandBRATS…will do a photo shoot when they return….


----------



## summerfi

For reasons that I've not figured out, the steel in some older saws seems to get brittle. I've gotten to where I can look at a saw and have a good idea if the teeth are likely to break during setting. Old saws with thick plates and big teeth are the prime candidates. I hold my breath while putting the least set I can get by with on these saws. The SNAP when you break a tooth is one of the worst sounds I know.


----------



## DavePolaschek

There are a whole bunch of different reasons for embrittlement, Bob. Fastenal has a good article on hydrogen embrittlement and points out it can happen during plating or etching, but steel can also pick up hydrogen from the environment over time. If you want a rabbit hole of information to dive into, search for "steel embrittlement" and start reading.


----------



## bandit571

Hmmm…could be a little too much pitting?









Appears to be a 6ppi…









Kind of a shame, though..









Nice hood ornament ….
English style handle?









With the split nuts..that had Patent Dates stamped on the underside…









May just hang this saw up, out of harm's way…..


----------



## bandit571

As for the other rip saw….no problems with the teeth snapping off….









Stamped as 5-1/2.










Bigger "RIP" style handle, 4 fingers fit comfy inside…WS medallion..









"Ribbon Ground"? Top edge was done differently, though. 
This one may be the "User" of the 2 saws. Has been sharpened and set. May give it a test drive, later….


----------



## summerfi

From an 1856 Philadelphia directory. Johnson & Conaway were early competitors of Henry Disston and were bought out by Disston in 1857. Their saws are highly sought after by collectors.


----------



## summerfi

CAST STEEL is, of course, a common mark on saws. But this is the first time I've seen it stamped underneath a saw handle. This is an early American saw. There are no other markings on the plate, but the medallion is marked Conrad & Roberts. They were a Philadelphia hardware store that existed at least as early as the 1840's. This saw was undoubtedly made by Henry Disston or one of the other well known Philadelphia makers. Being an early saw, it well could have been personally made by one of these makers. I would date the saw to the late 1840's or early 1850's. I'll post more pictures of it once I complete a restoration.


----------



## Sawron

So I got my little coarse cranked-neck half-round iwasaki and worked it into my flow with the other two once I figured out that just like the curved one, the handle is largely decorative:









Tested it out on some of the worst wood to use for a handle I've seen, pretty sure it's red cedar, literally impossible to avoid spots of tearout because they sit there hidden and fully intact looking until you touch them just right, so it's never going to end up as pretty and crisp as a nice beech or apple or walnut, but I ain't got any of them and I was bored and wanted to try out a slightly old school looking twist on my theme:









The grip wound up super comfy and snug, and the bits of tearout look almost like it was just accumulated wear and tear over a long life instead of it being a freshly cut and shaped handle:









Oh, but what's that down there in the corner?









Walnut handle, sycamore spine, pine blade and retaining pin… pretty darned cute, that's what it is.


----------



## chrisstef

Posting to get to the bottom.


----------



## Sawron

The bottom of what? The wrestler Dwayne Johnson's move? The moment of an addiction spiral where you realize you need to make a change? The literal set of interlocked boards that support fluid in a round wooden container like a barrel or bucket? The metaphorical "of this" someone speaks of during an investigation? The page which confuses me but I have a lot of weird CSS rules so maybe my layout isn't the same as yours?


----------



## donwilwol

> Posting to get to the bottom.
> 
> - chrisstef


There is no bottom to the rabbit hole.


----------



## chrisstef

> Posting to get to the bottom.
> 
> - chrisstef
> 
> There is no bottom to the rabbit hole.
> 
> - Don W


The dozen saws in my office agree.


----------



## theoldfart

Just a dozen?

Slacker


----------



## HokieKen

He did say "in his office" Kev. He probably has a stash in every room so the wife never sees them all in one place ;-)


----------



## donwilwol

I think he just forgot the "s". Dozens.


----------



## Sawron

I assumed he meant dozens of offices for saws.


----------



## summerfi

Woodrough & McParlin No. 9, apple handle, crosscut 11 ppi. Similar to a Disston No. 9.

*Before*


















*After*


----------



## summerfi

I've written a blog post about this Wheeler Madden & Clemson rip saw because it has an unusual maker's name stamp. You can read it here.

*Before*


















*After*


----------



## BlasterStumps

Really nice work Bob.

I picked up a saw at Habitat today that had approx 14" blade, brass saw nuts, Disston medallion, looked like a bench saw. I have one like it but could not come up with a model number for them. The blade on the one I looked at today was toast so I left it.


----------



## DavePolaschek

A couple beautiful restorations, Bob!


----------



## TedT2

I bought this a couple weeks ago at an auction. It is my first split-nut saw. I was pretty happy to get it. I've been told it is a rare saw as the saw maker was unknown. Not very valuable because the maker is unknown. I'm planning to try and clean it up a bit.


----------



## summerfi

Your saw appears to be made by The Livingston Mfg. Co. of Johnstown, NY. William B. Livingston operated the company from 1859 to 1871. It is a rare saw that collectors would be interested in. There are only a few examples known. Accordingly, you should go light on any rehab you do to the saw, or you may decrease it's collector value. A light cleaning and waxing without disassembling the saw is all I would recommend. I wouldn't use it as a user saw. You could sell it to a collector for enough to buy several user saws. I would suggest you post it on the Facebook saw page and one of the collectors there will likely make you an offer you can't refuse. https://www.facebook.com/groups/857101454366905/


----------



## UpstateNYdude

Nice, Johnstown, NY is like 20-30 minutes west of me, that's awesome look forward to seeing it restored.


----------



## TedT2

I actually did post it on there and I got no offers. That is where I got the info on it. I guess I should have said I would sell it…



> Your saw appears to be made by The Livingston Mfg. Co. of Johnstown, NY. William B. Livingston operated the company from 1859 to 1871. It is a rare saw that collectors would be interested in. There are only a few examples known. Accordingly, you should go light on any rehab you do to the saw, or you may decrease it s collector value. A light cleaning and waxing without disassembling the saw is all I would recommend. I wouldn t use it as a user saw. You could sell it to a collector for enough to buy several user saws. I would suggest you post it on the Facebook saw page and one of the collectors there will likely make you an offer you can t refuse. https://www.facebook.com/groups/857101454366905/
> 
> - summerfi


----------



## summerfi

Condition is everything to collectors, and your saw is pretty rusty, so that may be a factor. I'd post it again, clearly identifying the maker, and ask for offers. They may not have known what they were looking at first time around.


----------



## summerfi

I've written a blog post on the restoration of this uncommon 1840s Conrad & Roberts handsaw. You can read about it here.


----------



## summerfi

This is part of the toothline of a saw currently for sale on ebay. Was this produced by a human?


----------



## BlasterStumps

summerfi, "Was this produced by a human?"

Bob, that looks just like my best sharpening job. : )


----------



## Karda

Hi, I found this 12" Disston the other day. It cleaned up nice but needs sharpening. I tried a cut and it cuts good but binds in the cut. There are no broken teeth but every other tooth is about half the height of the ones on either side. Is this the way this saw should be sharpened. thanks


----------



## summerfi

Karda, no, that is not how the saw should be sharpened. It sounds like your saw has a case of "cows and calves". The points of all teeth should be exactly the same height, and the gullets between all teeth should be exactly the same depth. Your saw is very typical of saws that were sharpened by someone who didn't know how to sharpen saws. See this for some very good info. http://www.blackburntools.com/articles/saw-tooth-geometry/index.html

Having worked on many hundreds of saws now, I can say that 99% of the saws I receive for work have been improperly sharpened. Some are worse than others. I don't think this was always the case. Back when men made their living using saws, they kept their saws in better shape, or they wouldn't be successful at their jobs. But it's been many years now since that was the case. People no longer know how to properly sharpen a saw. Anyone who uses saws should learn how to sharpen them. It's not something mysterious. It simply tales knowledge, correct sharpening tools, and practice. All are easily obtainable.


----------



## Karda

anybody know what this the bottom saw is. Its a 16" back saw, 13-14 ppi. the medallion reads Sheffield on top warranted on bottom, shield in the middle with trade on one side mark on the other and patented above shield.


----------



## bandit571

Atkins…


----------



## Karda

thanks, how could you tell ts an Atkins


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

I think (not being sarcastic here) the "A" in the Medallion is a strong tell. But I'm not expert in saw medallions.

BUT THEN, wait a minute!

Bob is, and he has a reference site here on LJs…










It is an atkins make.


----------



## Karda

thaks even with magnification I didn't see that as an A


----------



## donwilwol

That and sheffield Is a secondary line of Atkins.


----------



## donwilwol

http://atkinssaws.blogspot.com/?m=0


----------



## bandit571

Random saw picture..









D-8, late 1940s, 11ppi crosscut….26" length..









Nice when you can see the reflection of the wood in the saw plate….even better to see a saw at work…


----------



## bandit571

It would appear to be a Sheffield No. 3…

16" saws were $18 per dozen….


----------



## Karda

thanks, it would be nice if they were that same price today.


----------



## dbray45

So, I have this dovetail saw that I really like but it has some issues. When I bought it, the plate was bent and creased and the teeth were a mess. I straightened it out as best as I could and refiled the teeth. I don't want to retooth it because the teeth will be brittle.

The problem that I have is that there is still some bent issues and as a result, makes sloppy cuts - and for dovetails, that doesn't work.

Should I replace the plate or just get a new saw?


----------



## BlasterStumps

maybe it isn't the right way to go about it but, I have taken a small saw like that and filed the toothline down so I could just still see the marks of the gullets, then recut new teeth in. I didn't notice any problems with the new teeth being brittle. I had not hammered on the plate so that could be where the brittle part comes in, ?

If I had to do it again and the saw merited it, since I don't see so well, I wouldn't cut new teeth, I would have someone like Bob at Rocky Mountain Saw Works see what he could do with the old plate or possibly replace it. Just my 2 Cents.


----------



## donwilwol

I'd say if you think you're ok with replacing the plate, take it out and take it to the anvil. Nothing ventured nothing gained! Best case, you straighten that sucker out. Worse case you replace the plate.

I'm thinking if you take your time, it'll be option 1.


----------



## Brit

I'm thinking that not everyone has an anvil Don. LOL.

Seriously though, a lot of waves in plates can be fixed by removing the plate from the back, checking and if necessary straigtening the back and then reinserting the plate.

If you remove the plate and it is still bent, then try carefully straightening it over your knee. If that doesn't work, reach for the hammer (but remove the plate from your knee before you hit it. :0)


----------



## HokieKen

Why remove the plate before you hit your knee Andy? Seems counterproductive. Ahhh, nevermind I'll just try it.


----------



## dbray45

Thank you guys.

When I bought this saw, the ocean on a rough day was smoother than the plate. It had a nice little crease in it which I did hammer out pretty well (the summer working in a blacksmith as a kid helped that). When I jointed the plate and filed new teeth into it - actually did the most good. Now, it is just a couple of waves but they are enough to make a less than clean cut. If I didn't use it for dovetail pins, I would leave it alone.

Mike has the best idea - send it to Bob, which is what I am going to do, will probably be next month. I have too many things going on right now to deal with it (but I need to use it) funny how that happens. I don't have access to an anvil anymore - lost that when I moved to Florida.


----------



## dbray45

One of the things I have found - Bob touched on it - in looking at the documentation, saw makers did a lot of things to their plates to make them last longer between sharpening. Spring steel along with hardening and tempering became the rule. Even the junk made out there today, you can see where they hardened the teeth and the rest is soft.

All of this over time makes the steel do interesting things. Most of the time, the metal work hardens and gets brittle - that's when the teeth break when setting. If I had access to a coal forge with some anthracite (which is almost impossible to find anymore). I would re-harden and temper the plate and it would be like new. None of this is going to happen anytime soon so will get a new plate - unless Bob, when he gets it, sees a reason not to replace the plate.


----------



## summerfi

This is an old and collectible saw that I wanted to clean up and make functional again while retaining the old look. I didn't want it to look shiny new. The makers were C&S Peace. Samuel Peace began making saws in Sheffield in 1814. He formed a partnership with Charles Peace in 1833 and they made saws marked C&S Peace until 1841. I suspect this saw was made somewhere near the end of that period.

*Before*


















The saw has a canted plate that had slipped too far into the spine at the toe. The handle had some old varnish on it. After sanding it off, I finished the handle with two coats of shellac thinned 50% and wiped on, then followed with a coat of paste wax. I buffed the brass back and screws lightly with steel wool to clean off a little of the tarnish

*After*


----------



## Karda

thats a nice saw, you got the look clean but aged. That is a strange shape for a back saw


----------



## onoitsmatt

Really like that saw, Bob. Tasteful restoration too.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Very nice, as usual, Bob. You're a true master of the craft.


----------



## sacha10

I despite everything take in something from pretty much every observed, and I gained from a mix-up on this saw. The handle, which is in any case in fantastic condition, had a split through the cheek simply over the emblem. I stuck it with Titebond and effectively arranged the split so it was almost imperceptible. I accepted it would be fine, yet when I amassed the saw and fixed the screws, the air out popped once more. On another saw a couple of years prior I tackled this issue by making a cut in the edge of the cheek with a cutting saw and sticking in a bit of facade with the grain situated 90 degrees to the handle grain. That split has held quite well, however because of the state of this handle and area of the break, https://homenewtools.com that wasn't entirely attainable. What I did rather was drill vertical gaps from the highest point of the "finger" on the handle that length the breaks in each cheek. At that point I embedded bits of metal strung pole covered with epoxy into the openings. That is by all accounts working fine; the airs out did't pop this time when I amassed the saw. Be that as it may, my misstep was that I didn't brace the breaks together while the epoxy was drying. So it despite everything looks like there are breaks in the handle, despite the fact that the splits are filled. At least I ought to have utilized a shaded material to fill the breaks, however clipping them shut would have been something more. They're truly little, so I didn't figure they would be noticeable. Live and learn.


----------



## summerfi

Ha! The above post by an obvious troll is funny. It is a copy of this post that I wrote on here about a year ago. But it looks like it's been run through a couple of iterations on Google Translate. I wonder what sasha10's native language is.


----------



## houblon

Anybody knows what happened to backsaw.net? It's been down for a while.


----------



## summerfi

I noticed that too houblon. I hope it's not permanently down. If I knew how to get in touch with Ray Gardner, the site originator, I'd ask him.


----------



## enjuneer

Backsaw.net is alive and well. I sent an email to Ray Gardiner this afternoon. He discovered that the server was out of disk space. He fixed the issue and brought the site up again.


----------



## summerfi

Great news, Bob. Thanks.


----------



## donwilwol

https://www.timetestedtools.net/2020/01/27/groves-sons-hand-saw-restoration/

Trying the YouTube thing. It's more work than it looks.


----------



## bandit571

D-8 in use, tonight….cross cutting Ash..


----------



## houblon

> Backsaw.net is alive and well. I sent an email to Ray Gardiner this afternoon. He discovered that the server was out of disk space. He fixed the issue and brought the site up again.
> 
> - enjuneer


Good to know it was not Brexit related.
Thanks!


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

> Good to know it was not Brexit related.
> Thanks!
> 
> - houblon


Lawl!


----------



## Wintergreen78

Ok, I think I need to practice a bit. This was my first try re-sawing a thick piece of maple. When I got this Pax rip saw it pulled to the left pretty aggressively. I stoned it a few times with a fine diamond plate and sharpened it. It is cutting pretty well now when I make regular rips. I need a couple of panels for the top of a tool box I'm making, so this looked like a good excuse to try re-sawing.

I'll be able to clean this up and make it work, but I'm pretty sure I can do a better job on the next panel. I think I was letting the saw cut on the far side from me, so it started to drift. Next time I think I need to flip the piece more frequently so I'm really just cutting down the line I can see.


----------



## Wintergreen78

Round 2. Went smoother and felt like I had better feel for what I was doing. The picture doesn't look much better than the first one, but it did come out quite a bit better. It won't take nearly as much cleaning up to get a useable panel.


----------



## WalkerR

Scored some saws at an auction yesterday. Got this entire lot for under $40. It was all bundled with plastic wrap, hard to see what was in there. I'm not yet into saws, I was mostly after the Japanese pull saw, which I've been eyeing at Woodcraft for $55. I did some preliminary research last night, found the Disstonian Institute site and some info on Sandvik. I don't think I hit the mother load here, most of these appear to be late models, but I do think I got a great deal.

-If you have any further thoughts about identifying these I'd appreciate it. Can provide better pics if needed. 
-how best to clean up? Evap-o-rust for the blades, linseed oil and scrub brush for the totes, brass-o for the screws?
-once cleaned, worth selling or worth keeping and learning how to use? 
-I also have no idea how to sharpen or set, so that's another skill to learn.

What I think I have so far:

*1. Craftsman Miter Box Model 881.3632* sticker in tact.

*2. TWO Craftsman Kromedge Backsaw* 16"x 4.75" blade. craftsman medallion. Just guessing they're Kromedge as it seems to go with the miter box model

*3. Gyokucho Ryoba Pull Saw Model 610.* -100% confirmed via length and tpi, and etched logo.

*4. Disston Dovetail Saw Late Model 68 *17 tpi, 10". There's some print left (not etching) which leads me to believe it's post 1955. Matched up with one on ebay that has more of the label visible.

*5. Sandvik 271 26" Handsaw* 9 tpi possibly 1950s? printed, not etched logos, all in English, plywood handle.

*6. Disston 26" Handsaw* Possibly D-23??? post 1955 based on medallion.

*7. Disston 20" panel saw* Post 1955 based on medallion. Likely C-1 10 point crosscut based on a similar ebay pic.

*8. Disston 26" Handsaw* possibly D-7. 1896-1917 based on medallion. Couldn't find this exact tote pattern on disstonian site. Appears to have had the nib at some point, now gone. Missing a screw, crack in cheek.


----------



## Karda

nice saws, learn to sharpen. build a saw vice and find a place to get saw files. lots of tubers teaching saw filing. Paul Sellers and wood by wright are 2 good ones. also some good sources right here In LJ Have fun. I started hand tool wood workingand even just building my tools is much more satisfying than power tools


----------



## summerfi

Remember the fellow in New York who sent me 25 backsaws to restore last fall? I thought that was a lot, but no. He just sent me 46 more. Anyone looking for temporary employment in Montana?


----------



## donwilwol

holy backsaws batman. And no Robin to be found!


----------



## bearkatwood

Wow. Nice collection, I guess we know what you will be doing for a while.


----------



## DavePolaschek

Geez, Bob. Guess *that* will keep you out of trouble for a little while.


----------



## CaptainKlutz

> - summerfi


99 bottles of beer on the wall, 99 bottles of beer.
Take one down, sharpen a saw while you drink it down, 98 bottles of beer on the wall.

That is only way I can deal with sharpening saws….. Hate file sharpening anything. 

Love live Bob Summerfield and rmsaws.com!


----------



## KentInOttawa

After some temporary employment in Montana, I suspect someone would leave with Journeyman status.


----------



## bandit571

$3 saw from today's road trip…









Need to get that black tape off of the teeth….back is painted black…

The plane under the saw is a Millers Falls No. 15…..$22.50….just couldn't leave it there…

What I can barely make out of the etch….there is a 19 involved…and another number….


----------



## WalkerR

I started with cleaning the Kromedge saws. I figured these are worth the least of the bunch if I screw them up somehow. Are these results typical? Is there a way to further clean/shine these up or is this the best to be expected?

-Plates and screws spent 48 hours in evaporust. 12h soak, rinse, repeat. 
-followed up with brasso metal polish applied with aluminum foil, which took off some of the black stains. 
-some steel wool to finish the process. 
-Totes just got a light pass of steel wool and some paste wax.


----------



## BlasterStumps

I'd say, good work Walker, they look good. I would make sure they are sharp, set, and waxed up and they should be good to go.


----------



## WalkerR

cool, so what's left then is the pitting from the rust, not much I can do about that? Is my process safe for an older disston saw? Would evaporust or brasso take the print off the Sandvik saw?

It's more likely I'll sell these, and leave the set and sharpen to someone else.


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## summerfi

How's this for attaching a handle to a saw?


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## Karda

kinda junky lookin but if it works. find a junk saw for a couple buck and salvage the screws


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## theoldfart

Bob, preserving the originals after restoration? 

Part of the big lot?

I'm thinking of sending a "few" Simonds for the RMSW treatment when you get done with that batch.


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## summerfi

Naw, that saw is on eBay. I just thought it was crazy enough to share a pic with the group.

Kevin, go ahead and send your saws, since I told the owner of that lot that I won't get them finished until next fall. I'll just be working on them as I can through the Spring and Summer. We bought the place where my wife grew up, the one with the orchard, and there is mega work to do there this year. It's going to be my full time job for awhile, and saws will just be a part time hobby. I'll make time for your saws though, Kevin.


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## summerfi

This morning I sold two saws and bought two saws (a private sale and an ebay purchase). I even made a small profit on the deals. The saws I sold are 1940-1950 era Disston D-8's, very common saws. EBay seller's pics of the two saws I bought are below.

First is a pretty little Crookes Roberts c.1850 dovetail saw.









Second is a c.1800 Samuel Newbould 18" tenon saw. This is now officially the oldest saw I own.









Not a bad morning's saw trading.


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## ErikF

Bob,

That Newbould saw is really impressive. I'm not really knowledgeable when it comes to vintage saws, but I feel like it's slim pickings once you get earlier than 1840's. Seems to be in great shape.

What are your plans for it?


----------



## summerfi

Erik, I agree with your assessment of the rarity of pre-1840 saws. As one would expect, as the date gets earlier the saws get scarcer. I'd love to find a pre-1800 saw, but those are like needles in a haystack, and when one is available, it brings big bucks. As for plans for the Newbould, I view it strictly as a collector saw. I don't think I'll do much with it besides putting it in my saw till and admiring it from time to time.


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## miketo

Bob, great looking saws! As for temporary help, I keep trying to convince my wife we should move to Missoula from Seattle. Visited there two years ago and really enjoyed the area. If I succeed in getting her to transfer, maybe I can stop by and help you with those saws.


----------



## summerfi

Sounds good, Mike. I'll hold a few saws for you. My son lives in the Seattle area and hates it - too many people and traffic. He'd love to get back over this way too.


----------



## miketo

Bob, your son is right. Seattle is clogged worse than a toilet at the Superbowl. City planners keep finding ways to do the absolute worst thing for everyone concerned and it's not going to be improved any time soon. Now, to go bug my wife again about that transfer….


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## ErikF

Figured you guys may appreciate this.

I hacked up one of my BeMaco saw sets and made it cnc. I like these saw sets but they can be temperamental. I've been making a lot of saws lately and wanted something more reliable and accurate.

It runs as a two axis machine.






Also, check out this quartersawn cherry. Soooo nice.


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## bandit571

Tale of two backsaws..









This came from Menard's with a white plastic mitre box…and black pegs to hold parts still..craft aisle 24ppi
This one..









Came from Heart of Ohio Antique Center…$3 + Tax….removed the tape..









Has about 14ppi. Cuts a bit slower, too…side by side?









Antique MIGHT be a No. 68? May find some use for it…..Uncle Arthur(itis) doesn't like either of them…


----------



## Karda

nice saws, I hear you about uncle. I am trying to use my non dominant hand, when I can remember I also have CRS disease


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## summerfi

That's a purty batch of saw handles, Erik, and the CNC setter looks like the ticket.

So, remember the fellow in New York who sent me 25 backsaws to rehab last Fall? And remember that he sent me 46 more last week? Well, today I got three more boxes of saws from him. I'm going to leave them in the bubble wrap for the foreseeable future, but by rough count there are 20 more. I'm starting to look around for the Candid Camera. Can this be real?


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop

^ Oh for goodness sake, that's a sh*t pot of saws to rehab!


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## theoldfart

I have to ask, is he a collector or a dealer? There seems to be a lot of disposable income on his part.


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## DavePolaschek

Well, Bob, you got no excuse for being bored now. ;-) Maybe we'll get up your way this summer. I'm tempted to apprentice myself out for a while to learn a bunch, but I suspect my sweetie has other plans for my summer. We'll see…

Erik, that's a pretty nice setup.


----------



## bearkatwood

Yep, unfortunately Seattle is a huge mess. They have a daily radio thing talking about the Mercer"Mess"(main rd. going from the I5 toward Seattle Center). Bob, you might get a kick out of this, while recently talking to my folks they mentioned that Missoula is now only 20 miles from Montana  I miss the wide open spaces.

Tons of great saw making going on here lately. I am walking away from it for the time being and going back to furniture. It is really easy to get burned out I guess. I don't know how you do it Erik, having the army of machines to back you up is fun to watch. 
Cheers all.


----------



## summerfi

Kevin, I think he's just a regular Joe that likes saws. He says he has about 400. He's a remodel contractor on Long Island and has no other hobbies than old tools.


----------



## theoldfart

Well I can certainly understand the allure of vintage saws and tools. Wish I could send the rest of mine to you but I'll settle for a few every now and then.


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## bigblockyeti

I have an affinity for old saws too but I'm curse with liking a tail on mine. This is my latest project that I finished last night, grandpa bought it from another old timer ~25 years ago and got sick before he ever got a chance to set it up to be able to use it.









And as far as "hand" saws go, I might have a problem with those too.









If I ever hit the lottery (really tough given I don't play), I'm going to buy a bunch of old (non-electric) hand saws and ship them all to Montana!


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## bandit571

Kenny…you have mail…


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## HokieKen

> Kenny…you have mail…
> 
> - bandit571


Sure do . Thank you sir! Now my new miter box can actually do something.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Nice hearth under your wood stove Bob. Good looking stone on there.

I'm almost to have the one in my workshop done. I just glued the tile down today. Finally got lights on the ceiling too. Yay!


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## summerfi

Thanks Mike. I'm not known as a a stone mason, but I'm kinda proud of the work I did on that hearth with native Montana stone.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Wow Bob, Very nice! That's art, that is.


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## dbray45

Bob, very nice


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## HokieKen

I can't believe you found rocks that were shaped exactly like fish Bob. That was really lucky. ;-p

Beautiful work!


----------



## bearkatwood

Pictures don't do it justice, it is a very impressive space, Nice work Bob.


----------



## WalkerR

> I can t believe you found rocks that were shaped exactly like fish Bob. That was really lucky. ;-p
> 
> - HokieKen


They must be fossils. : )


----------



## UpstateNYdude

Bob, that looks like the holy worshiping place to the saw God. Beautiful work, I'd expect no less from a guy that restores saws as beautifully as you do, I can see you take a lot of pride in everything you set your mind to, very nice space.


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## summerfi

Today I received in the mail this somewhat nondescript saw for a retoothing and sharpening job.










Where did it come from, you may ask. The answer is found on the postage label.


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## BenDupre

WOW 509 baht! wonder if the saw is worth that?


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## miketo

Impressive for both the distance it traveled and the lack of rust.


----------



## WalkerR

Remember this guy? (the Disston on the top) 









Well I've got it all cleaned up, and I've been trying to pin down exactly what it is. Looks like it had a nib at one time, now departed. No etch to speak of. 26" plate, 8 points. The medallion suggests 1896-1917, brass screws which cleaned up nice but one of them is missing. Working mostly from a 1923 price list, which was the most complete document I could find from near that era, I searched through every pic I could find on the interwebs.

I could not find anything with a plate that came to such a narrow point at the tow. Was it a ship pattern? Probably not, as the catalogue ship saws did not have nibs. So I assumed it had to be sharpened many, many times. Perhaps it was cracked at one point, so someone cut a solid chunk off the plate and re-toothed? The shape of the handle, and lack of carving, suggested a No. 7…but those all seem to have the groove detail towards the bottom of the cheek. The saw totes that looked almost exact in the catalogue belong to the "C. Bishop" No. 1 and the "T. Taylor" No. 3. Could it be one of those?

Well…it took many trips through the evapo-rust bath and a lot of scrubbing but lo and behold an etch appeared! The etch does not match the C. Bishop or T. Taylor, but does match a No. 7, though difficult to see in the pics. However, it is bisected through the middle by the current edge of the blade. Still, the tote is not exact. What I found next in the catalogue was replacement handles. The shape matches. They could be bought with a slit and no screw holes. The customer was to drill them to match the plate. The fact that the medallion is abnormally close to the edge of the tote supports this.

So I'm thinking this was a No. 7 Circa early 1900s that had a rough life, was re-toothed and tote replaced. What do you think? Also, would these be considered rip teeth?


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## bandit571

Last photo shows a Disston etch..


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## WalkerR

yeah, TLDR… after cleaning it up I found the etch that leads me to believe it's a No. 7 that was re-toothed and tote replaced.


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## summerfi

Walker, I'd say your assessment is correct. It is a worn out Disston (probably No. 7) with a replacement handle. An enlarged picture of the teeth looks like they are filed crosscut.


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## WalkerR

Thanks for the confirmation Bob. I'm likely going to put it on ebay and I like to be as accurate as possible with the description. I wasn't sure about the teeth, because the angle on some of them are steeper than others, particularly towards the heel.


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## HokieKen

Paul Sellers advocates for a progressive rake along the saw Walker. (Not that the idea is uniquely his, just that he preaches it from the most prominent pulpit) Perhaps your saw is like that?


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## TomNez

I recently got a retoother model Foley Belsaw 32000. Anyone have any for sale ratchet bars?


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## donwilwol




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## BlasterStumps

how is one to know if he or she has a saw not previously listed in that book? Not everyone will have the book to check.


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## donwilwol

Most saw collectors do


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## AMZ

> I recently got a retoother model Foley Belsaw 32000. Anyone have any for sale ratchet bars?
> 
> - TomNez


I have a complete Foley saw sharpening outfit, including ratchet bars. Bought about a decade ago when I played around with making a few saws. I would sell everything, but not just the ratchet bars, as without them, everything else is useless, unless you can make your own.


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## summerfi

> how is one to know if he or she has a saw not previously listed in that book? Not everyone will have the book to check.
> 
> - BlasterStumps


If you go to the website FAQ's, it tells you how to message them to ask if your saw is already in the book.


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## enjuneer

> Most saw collectors do
> 
> - Don W


I do not have a copy of Erv's book at the moment. I had an autographed copy that I bought for $6 a few years ago, but gave it to a friend. I hope he realizes that it would sell for $200+ now.


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## DLAT

If they wish to add other makers to the book then I think it would also be helpful to remove all the English makers that are in there. I spotted about 10 of them that I recognized, and a proper search could probably find more. 
And it would be good to correct dates, where possible, and remove ghost makers that have never been seen, but only mentioned years later in someones reminiscences. Like Lindley, Johnson & Whitcraft who were mentioned in a speech by Jacob Disston (who was himself born many years after they are supposed to have worked), which was later referenced in the Chronicle, but their names have never shown up in any of the records of the time, nor has any example of their work ever been found. Perhaps a section for "Possibles"?


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## donwilwol

> Most saw collectors do
> 
> - Don W
> 
> I do not have a copy of Erv s book at the moment. I had an autographed copy that I bought for $6 a few years ago, but gave it to a friend. I hope he realizes that it would sell for $200+ now.
> 
> - enjuneer


I did not realize that book was that valuable!!


----------



## TomNez

> So it is a good thing I ordered two of those .030 bits. I busted the first one on the first pass, seems that 25 inches per minute was a bit too much for it. I slowed it down to 3 inches per minute and the second bit seems to be doing fine. This will be a 14ppi bar. Thanks Erik for all your help. I have had a bumpy start with the cnc but I am liking it now. All you CNC pros please ignore all my clamps with chunks missing
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So it is a good thing I ordered two of those .030 bits. I busted the first one on the first pass, seems that 25 inches per minute was a bit too much for it. I slowed it down to 3 inches per minute and the second bit seems to be doing fine. This will be a 14ppi bar. Thanks Erik for all your help. I have had a bumpy start with the cnc but I am liking it now. All you CNC pros please ignore all my clamps with chunks missing
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This picture shows it next to a (9-5)bar.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - bearkatwood
> 
> 
> 
> Hello Brian, excelent work!
> I need to make all the ratchted bars.
> Can you put the link for this router 0.030 bits.
> How deep you cut the bar?
Click to expand...


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## bearkatwood

I don't feel too good about recommending the bits I used as I busted them all and never made it to the end of the ratchet bar. I got a bar that was usable to some degree, but only about 14" worth of it.
I did not have the bar clamped adequately and I they were cheap bits. That said I would probably give this a try .030 end mill
Take very light passes and go slow, make sure the bar stock is clamped in place and has no room to vibrate. Then clean the bars up by filing them as you might a rip. I am sure if someone were to produce these commercially today they would be very popular. Good luck. hope it goes better than my attempts.


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## HokieKen

> ... I am sure if someone were to produce these commercially today they would be very popular. ...
> 
> - bearkatwood


How popular is "very"? If there were enough demand to justify the up-front tooling costs, these bars could be made easily and reliably on a horizontal mill with an arbor and overarm support…


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## UpstateNYdude

Ken, make them and they will come lol


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## HokieKen

They have to come first if Ken's gonna lay out NREs ;-)


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## garethmontreal

Some of my old british saws










Smith and sons c.1830s










S biggins and Son(s) circa 1850










No idea, circa old maybe.


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## bearkatwood

acme saw filer for sale









I also have a foley filer and setter. A beMaCo setter, some ratchet & carrier bars. Not looking to ship, pickup only.


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## P89DC

> They have to come first if Ken s gonna lay out NREs ;-)
> 
> - HokieKen


There's enough of the standard set ratchet bars (4.5tpi~13tpi) but the extended bar sets (12tpi~16tpi) are hard to find and sell for at least $50 each if you can find them. The higher tooth counts don't require the full 20 inches, 12~14 inches could be enough for 14tpi~20tpi (if a Foley retoother can go that fine?). Also progressive tooth count ratchet bars could fetch a premium.


----------



## bandit571

Trying to make a way to hang a panel saw on a cabinet door…









Saw is a Disston D8 (no hyphen) 10 ppi 20". Pine insert was rough sawn on bandsaw, then sanded to fit…









Door in question?









Will hang it up inside this door..









Figure two screws to attach the hanger insert. keeper? And, maybe something down at the toe of the saw? Don't want it to rattle around in there.









Then repeat for the Disston No. 4 backsaw, 9ppi Rip, 14" long…...as soon as my right hand gets healed up…..


----------



## P89DC

I see the listing ended. Did it sell? 


> acme saw filer for sale
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I also have a foley filer and setter. A beMaCo setter, some ratchet & carrier bars. Not looking to ship, pickup only.
> 
> - bearkatwood


----------



## jmartel

I posted these in another thread, but I finally remembered about the half-finished dovetail saw I started about 2 years ago. Finished it up yesterday. Wood is curly Koa from a Hawaii trip about 3 years ago. Blackburn hardware.


















I have to tweak a couple things, but I ran out of time yesterday. The back doesn't clamp as well as I'd like (had it pop up a bit slightly in use), and there seems to be one or two teeth set out too far on one side and I can feel the impact in use.

However, it flies through oak like butter. I'm happy. I've been using a 20tpi Veritas dovetail saw before this so it will be nice to have the extra reach and faster cutting.


----------



## bearkatwood

Nope, no sales. No one wanted to risk it I guess.
That koa turned out great, very nice looking saw.


----------



## P89DC

Do the ratchet bars need to be made of steel? If they're only used for retoothing perhaps aluminum or a fancy plastic/composite wood work.


> So it is a good thing I ordered two of those .030 bits. I busted the first one on the first pass, seems that 25 inches per minute was a bit too much for it. I slowed it down to 3 inches per minute and the second bit seems to be doing fine. This will be a 14ppi bar. Thanks Erik for all your help. I have had a bumpy start with the cnc but I am liking it now. All you CNC pros please ignore all my clamps with chunks missing
> 
> So it is a good thing I ordered two of those .030 bits. I busted the first one on the first pass, seems that 25 inches per minute was a bit too much for it. I slowed it down to 3 inches per minute and the second bit seems to be doing fine. This will be a 14ppi bar. Thanks Erik for all your help. I have had a bumpy start with the cnc but I am liking it now. All you CNC pros please ignore all my clamps with chunks missing
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This picture shows it next to a (9-5)bar.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - bearkatwood
> 
> Hello Brian, excelent work!
> I need to make all the ratchted bars.
> Can you put the link for this router 0.030 bits.
> How deep you cut the bar?
> 
> - TomNez


----------



## dbray45

I was going to get a new blade for my dovetail saw but I am sure Bob is up to his waist in work right now. I will send it along later but in the meantime, I bought this.

It seems to be at a little different angle and is actually more comfortable than the old saw.


----------



## dbray45

I was going to get a new blade for my dovetail saw but I am sure Bob is up to his waist in work right now. I will send it along later but in the meantime, I bought this.

It seems to be at a little different angle and is actually more comfortable than the old saw.


----------



## Karda

Hi, can somebody post brits video on saw sharpening and making a saw vise thanks Mike


----------



## HokieKen

Here ya go Mike.


----------



## Karda

thanks


----------



## bearkatwood

I have been finishing off the last few orders that I had and started on some furniture plans I have wanted to get to. I even started on making a wooden clock, haven't gotten far on that, those suckers are complicated.
One large project I started was a maloof rocker. I wanted to try and be as awthentic as I could for that, so I looked for pictures online of his rockers that I could use as patterns. I printed out templates using my cnc for the chair and I think it will turn out really well. That got me thinking of what other things I could replicate using that process.
I have all these and materials tools laying around my shop for making saws. Then an idea hit me. I could have any saw I wanted, all I had to do was make it.
So I thought, what about an Eccentric by Andrew Lunn, those suckers are impossible to find on the resale market. So with the magic of sketchup, pilfered photos from the internet and my cnc I popped out a handle.
I think I may tackle a few other models I wouldn't be able to afford or find. Maybe Groves and Sons, I like some Tyzacks.
I wondered if any of you might have some fun suggestions for old hard to get saws that could be reproduced?
These would not be for sale as I am not doing that anymore, at least not a for a good long while(need a break).
I still love making saws and might take the quiet time to redesign some of the ones I make for fun.
Cheers all, hope you are staying healthy.
I will post my progress on the collection additions as I make them.


----------



## RonB57

How do you like the Axiom thus far?


----------



## rad457

And here all I did was trace the pattern of my Gramercy for some Crown gents saws


----------



## Mosquito

Awesome Brian, I've been debating making a few saw totes on my CNC as well, have a few saw plates around to use up. Did you use a tapered bit for it?


----------



## bearkatwood

I did use a tapered bit, I know I am probably making traditionalist saw makers wince, but I have a cnc and would like to know more on how to produce things with it. A saw handle was good practice in getting things figured out. I have come up with my routine of taking a picture of what I need to make with a ruler in the shot, then I size the imported picture in sketchup. There are some great free plugins to get wild curvy shapes that wrap around just about anything. I have put off learning fusion because I am slow in learning this stuff and it took me forever to get proficient with sketchup. Then it is just a matter of exporting a stl into vcarve.
I did a few handles with the tapered bit and Bob would have to remind me what that is called when the top of the saw handle slopes to either side, he had one he showed me at his place and I liked it. I liked it on the test handle too. I have been using straight endmills too, but just to rough it out. I just got in my first straight bullnose 1/4" bit and have yet to try it out.
Ron,
as to the Axiom question. I know there are a lot cheaper versions out there, but this thing is built like a tank and I have yet to have an issue with it. They did a great job putting it together. You get what you pay for on those I guess. The greatest part I think it Vcarve, the software that comes with it. They gave me a free trial of aspire as I thought I would be doing some youtube, but I never did. I wanted to get good with the program before I showed people how to mess with it. Then life happened and it expired. It has all the bells and whistles and would probably eliminate the sketchup step. If I had the cash to get Aspire again I would, but vcarve seems to get me where I need to go.
If I am just making a few saws, I see no problem with tracing out a design, but I wanted to learn how this might be used to do production runs. There is litttle if any fussing with it when it is done, a quick sanding and stick it together. 
I will get some more pics in soon, been busy actually taking orders as I needed some cash when the world decided to stop, I am far from essential


----------



## Mosquito

I hear ya. I've thought about just making the blank on the CNC, and then rasping it to shape by hand. Just something to get me a little closer I guess. Similar situation, have the CNC, and thougH I wouldn't plan to do any sort of production work like that, exactly the same as you, just wanting to learn more. Thanks for the input


----------



## bearkatwood

Cnc's are a lot of fun if you get the programming right. Nice part about that is that it is almost all user error, if something goes wrong, it was your fault. Helps to get you to pay attention to things. The labor of working up shapes can be very time consuming and really doesn't negate or enhance the end job in one way or another, but it sure can save you a lot of time, time better spent at the finishing end of things.


----------



## summerfi

Brian, the term is arrised handle.

As for suggestions on what handles to reproduce, how about a complete set of John Kenyon saws as found in the Seaton tool chest.


----------



## bandit571

Maybe time for an old school saw?









Black tape is there for a grip, tells me where to grab to use it…

Not sure what wood this handle is made from…









WS 12" backsaw…


----------



## rad457

Hey Bandit, you have plans for that saw or just wing it?


----------



## HokieKen

Gramercy has free plans available for their bow saw kits Andre. IIRC, Paul Sellers also has a video (or series) on making one with a bandsaw blade. Sellers' includes the how-to for the hardware whereas the Gramercy is a smaller saw and they sell the hardware kit. FWIW, I quite like the Gramercy kit


----------



## bandit571

There was a video series out a few years ago…Traditional Chinese Woodworking…..Old fellow was making wooden planes of all sorts, and his version of a Frame saw….seems he had about 50 versions of that saw hanging around in his shop. Sign in the shop said GE Hong….videos were done in Mandarin, though….


----------



## HokieKen

Here we go Andre. Paul Sellers making the frame saw


----------



## rad457

Lee Valley sells the Gramercy bow Saw kit $81.50 CAD! 12" saw, almost bought it back in the days when I had some Money Picked up my Gramercy D.T. saw back when they were still affordable and I was buying stuff I thought were actually needed? Funny how I can cut just as straight of line with my rehandled Crown Gents saw?
Sort of interested in the blade holding hardware, instead of beating a bolt into a useable shape  Come to think of it that might be more fun! Maybe I should look into getting a forge and an Anvil instead?


----------



## HokieKen

If you follow the Sellers' method, you just need to poke a couple of holes in a bandsaw blade and then pin them in a kerf in the frame IIRC. Only hardware is a couple of steel or brass pins and some kind of cord to tension the top


----------



## HokieKen

The Gramercy kit is only $30 at Toolsforworkingwood Andre. Not sure how shipping would shake out though…


----------



## rad457

> The Gramercy kit is only $30 at Toolsforworkingwood Andre. Not sure how shipping would shake out though…
> 
> - HokieKen


Yup, added a couple of saw files and handles for $67.00 order, $46.00 shipping ! Add another 35-40% dollar exchange, that forge looking better all the time, started to watch the Seller Video, could work if I were to add some Brass bushings? Then change twisty ropes with threaded Rod? Or maybe a Cam Locking mechanism? Wife giving me that get off that thing and get to work look She is a little disappointed that I'm not heading to the Coast this year for Mothers day!


----------



## DavePolaschek

> Sort of interested in the blade holding hardware, instead of beating a bolt into a useable shape  Come to think of it that might be more fun! Maybe I should look into getting a forge and an Anvil instead?


One thing I talked over with my friend who has made other metal parts for me over the years is fashioning blade holders for a turning saw. The big weakness in the Gramercy kit (as I saw it) is that the brass pins that hold the blade are not tapered, the way traditional ones were (as I understand it). Tapered blade holders will resist turning more the tighter you tension the blade, so you can control the blade rotation better.

We talked about him turning the Gramercy ones down or making clones of them, but never settled on what the best solution would be, and they remained on the drawing board.

But with those in hand, the blades aren't too hard to come by, even north of the border. I'll ping him again and see… maybe he'll have an idea for cranking out a handful of the pins at some point.


----------



## bandit571

Hmmm, my hardware and the blade, came from a couple old Butcher's meat saws….dime a dozen at about every Yard Sale around here…



























I used a mortise and tenon joint to connect the arms to the stretcher…but, no glue needed…









All-thread (5/16") one end has a washer and a wing nut, this end has a mortise, to hold the "folded down" end of the all-thread….then I ground it smooth….









Seems to cut nicely enough….as a crosscut saw…









Handle details…













































Seems to be about 9ppi….
And a few more saw items…









MIGHT be a good one in that stack?









Maybe?


----------



## rad457

Thanks Bandit, sort of what I was thinking, lots of scrap maple and oak in the shop, probably go with 1/2" band saw blade, got lots of old ones that could be touched up to sawing sharpness.


----------



## bearkatwood

Shannon Rodgers aka the Renaissance Woodworker is about to have a saw talk live on his youtube channel. Starts here in a few minutes. 5EST.


----------



## DavePolaschek

Thanks for posting that link, Brian. I had to bail partway through, but enjoyed watching what I did see.

I saw his dado saw, just after I cut a bunch of sliding dovetail sockets with a dovetail saw, instead of a sash saw or something more appropriate, and thought that I might end up trying to put one of those together some time, but it'd be a lot easier for me to get traction if I could find a saw plate that was about right for the project.

Would any of you guys be interested in making me a saw plate for such a beast? It'll be used exclusively crosscut, and mostly on 6-8" wide boards.


----------



## bearkatwood

sure message me.


----------



## Brit

Let's hear it for the mighty D8…

Just been sawing along to Simon & Garfunkel's 'The Boxer' covered by Mumford & Sons. The track is 4:05 long and I had it on repeat and finished just after the third time through. Sweating now.


----------



## theoldfart

Andy, filed crosscut?


----------



## Karda

even if it is crosscut it pretty fine for cutting a log


----------



## Brit

Yes Kev. 8ppi.

Karda - Although it isn't that obvious in the photos above, this wood is heavily spalted which means it is soft and relatively easy to saw. The finer teeth and letting the saw do the work mean you have a better chance of a cleaner cut, whereas a saw with larger teeth would tend to rip the fibres before it had a chance of cutting them.


----------



## Brit

Here's a photo showing the spalting now that I've split the log and removed the bark.


----------



## donwilwol

Some new arrivals now available https://www.timetestedtools.net/product/disston-the-saw-in-history/


----------



## tshiker

Hey boys! I'm hoping someone can help me out. I recently acquired a Simmonds backsaw that I think belongs with a Langdon 15 1/2 mitre box. The saw measures 16" x 2-3/8". It has a Simmonds medallion and the etch reads Millers Falls Mass. and what I'm pretty sure is "Langdon Mitre Box" but the etch is not 100% there. My problem is the tip of the logo goes into the tooth line. Now this might be caused by sharpening, hence the missing 1/8th inch of plate but I have nothing to compare it to. I'm hoping one of you own or have pictures of a Simmonds saw made for the 15-1/2 that I can use as a comparison. Please look at the pictures and let me know what you think! Thanks!
ps the last picture is just for fun!


----------



## BrentParkin

I was gifted a couple of beat up D4 Disston saws that had been well abused. The handles were completely trashed with drilled out holes, wrong bolts, smashed horns and broken cheeks. So while I used a piece of Manitoba maple a friend gave me to make a couple of handles since I can not get apple around here.

When I made a blank and resawed it into a couple of handles, I was greeted with some amazing colour. Colour that eventually will fade to a more pinkish brown, but hopefully the spar varnish I used to try and slow it will help.

Next up will be new teeth, sharpening and setting. Then the two saws will be ready for another 100 years of use. The bottom saw in the picture showing how I got them is the one being worked on in this post.

Stay healthy everyone.

Brent
Regina, SK
Canada eh!


----------



## bearkatwood

that turned out stunning.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Beautiful work, Brent!


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## UpstateNYdude

> I was gifted a couple of beat up D4 Disston saws that had been well abused. The handles were completely trashed with drilled out holes, wrong bolts, smashed horns and broken cheeks. So while I used a piece of Manitoba maple a friend gave me to make a couple of handles since I can not get apple around here.
> 
> When I made a blank and resawed it into a couple of handles, I was greeted with some amazing colour. Colour that eventually will fade to a more pinkish brown, but hopefully the spar varnish I used to try and slow it will help.
> 
> Next up will be new teeth, sharpening and setting. Then the two saws will be ready for another 100 years of use. The bottom saw in the picture showing how I got them is the one being worked on in this post.
> 
> Stay healthy everyone.
> 
> Brent
> Regina, SK
> Canada eh!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> - BrentParkin


Brent I may have some apple that I had resawn last year, it has a little spaulting in it as well if your need ever arises again let me know and I can ship you out a section for whatever shipping to you would be.

But while I'm here and admiring that nice piece of maple and the handle you made, can you take some pictures of that hi-vise you're using or made? I can't tell if that is Benchcrafted or if that is homemade, the collar around the handle nut looks homemade or antique and looks nice, please if you could post some pics of that if you wouldn't mind.

Thanks and wonderful saw restoration.


----------



## bearkatwood

Apple is hard stuff to find.


----------



## BrentParkin

Hi Nick,

I just added the vise quickly as a project so you can have a look here:


Stay healthy,

Brent


----------



## UpstateNYdude

> Hi Nick,
> 
> I just added the vise quickly as a project so you can have a look here:
> 
> 
> Stay healthy,
> 
> Brent
> 
> - BrentParkin


Thank you so much Brent, I like your idea on the different jaws similar to a normal bench vise and swapping soft jaws and brass. I have the BC one already as I just got it the other day (I have a problem where all my hardware and stuff has to match, I probably have undiagnosed OCD at least that's what my wife says) and was planning to build it soon as there isn't much else to do in lockdown.


----------



## Karda

Its nice when shop tools look nice, go for matching


----------



## DavePolaschek

Oof. Resawing a 5/4×7" x 5 foot board into two half inch pieces is a lot of work.


----------



## theoldfart

Dave need a bigger saw!


----------



## bandit571

Small lumber parts…(3/16" thick) need a small saw…


----------



## bigblockyeti

Dave you need a longer blade, maybe weld the ends and make a loop then wrap it around a couple of wheels, even drive one with a motor. Could save some time?


----------



## DavePolaschek

Kevin, I've got a Bad Axe Roubo, but I find I'm not happy with it. I have a hard time cutting a straight line, whereas the ECE seems to drive pretty straight, even with the blade set at 45 degrees.

Yeti, I have a bandsaw, but it's in the garage instead of the shop, and I don't have the dust collection hooked up yet. Plus, I've got time. The poplar for the drawer sides doesn't arrive in the mail until Thursday, so I've got two more days to finish sawing through this piece…


----------



## theoldfart

Dave, mine is from Issac Smith at Blackburn Tools. The gullets are huge so sawdust gets pushed out of the cut quickly










This is a close up of the kerfing plane blade, same configuration.










Stayed reasonably straight.


----------



## DavePolaschek

The ECE has big gullets, too. Not sure what's up with my roubo, but probably it's just a little kink from the movers or something. I found my saw sharpening tools today, so I'll probably take a look at it soon, but might finish sawing this board first.


----------



## Karda

I bough this junk saw for the screws but they were to small and even though the handle is broke it fits my habds good. Is there anywhere i can get a down loadable template that is close to this handle, I want to make a new handle. When I learn to sharpen saw I am going to change it to a 5ppi rip saw. I don't know the brand, no etch and the medallion is warranted superior so that no help, the screws are steel. When I was restoring the blade I found a 9 stamped into the heel, I counted 9 points. Thanks Mike


----------



## theoldfart

Karda, this is on Blackburn Tools web site. It should cover you.


----------



## bearkatwood

tgiag as well


----------



## theoldfart

Brians is a better choice Karda


----------



## Karda

thanks for the links they will help


----------



## bandit571

Might look up a Disston No. 16?


----------



## Mosquito

TGIAG is what I used in the past as well, they have quite a few


----------



## Karda

thanks bandit my handle is less ornate but other wise identical. I was able to make a tracing now all I have to do if find a way to enlarge it thanks Mike


----------



## DavePolaschek

> I have a hard time cutting a straight line [with the Bad Axe Roubo], whereas the ECE seems to drive pretty straight, even with the blade set at 45 degrees.


Here is the result of three strokes with the bad axe. I need to do something to get it tuned up correctly, because this just isn't working for me.










That was on the back side of the cut, which is why I didn't catch it on the first stroke.


----------



## theoldfart

Dave, tension is good? Also how wide is the blade? I think the 4" wide blade on mine keeps it tracking well.


----------



## DavePolaschek

Tension is good, Kevin. Here are the plate specs:










I think part of the problem is that I never cut down the frame, so it's heavier than it should be, especially on the far end, which makes it easier to get a wobble. Also, I'm not standing head-on to the cut, because I'm holding the board in a face vise.

But turning the blade in the ECE to 45 degrees makes for a fairly well-behaving saw. That's a smaller plate yet.


----------



## theoldfart

Yea, the Blackburn is 3 1/3 PPI. 48" blade length, 4" wide, .042 thick. I've got the weight evenly balanced. I also cut from the face vise but I stood at the end of the bench. I am planning on building a Roubo resaw bench at some time. I have two wooden screws and nuts squirreled away for it.










I had the stock angled away from me, the pull force is substantial and the stock would move in the direction of pull.


----------



## Mosquito

> nuts squirreled away
> 
> - theoldfart


Not sure if it was intentional or not, but this wasn't lost on me :-D

In the picture you posted, do you saw from where the camera is, or from the end the camera is pointed at?


----------



## theoldfart

From the end that the camera is pointed at.


----------



## Just_Iain

> Yea, the Blackburn is 3 1/3 PPI. 48" blade length, 4" wide, .042 thick. I ve got the weight evenly balanced. I also cut from the face vise but I stood at the end of the bench. I am planning on building a Roubo resaw bench at some time. I have two wooden screws and nuts squirreled away for it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I had the stock angled away from me, the pull force is substantial and the stock would move in the direction of pull.
> 
> - theoldfart


Hey Kevin,

I always wondered if you could mount the vise you have on a nice beefy 6×6 or 6×8 and just keep cutting with no bench to stop you? Mind you it would require a wedge or insert to avoid closing up the cut.

Iain


----------



## theoldfart

Ian I don't know how you'd keep it stable while sawing. I'll put up a pic of the Roubo plate that has what I have on mind. Don Williams has experimented with the design.


----------



## Mosquito

Someone did that… Shipwright maybe? Perhaps Keifer? I don't remember who it was, but they basically did exactly as you suggest, was just a standalone leg vise on a post in the floor.

Only issue I see with that idea though, is that you still don't want to cut below the clamping position, as it will start to squeeze the cut closed and pinch the blade


----------



## Mosquito

Kevin, was it this one?


----------



## theoldfart

Mos, yes. I have two screws and nuts for it. I'm trying to have it as an add on to my bench since it needs a ton of mass.


----------



## Sawron

Hmmm… put down a couple sets of bench dogs to keep the board stable when you put it on one side, longways across the bench so the kerf hangs over the end, then C-clamp it against the bench so you can lift/drop the frame saw, put a stool or cut to handy length piece of stock under the free end after you get the blade in the kerf to keep it from flexing too much that way?


----------



## Sawron

Hmmm, hate to double post but I had to think about it a little more and got distracted before I noticed a couple of scrap bits that I could do a proof of concept with.
















Top is how I tested it out, clamping it right now would make the floor buzz and wake up literally everybody so I just grabbed it with my knees and started cutting a little to see how it worked, second pic shows the kerf side.

Sure this could be developed into a nicer looking twist as like a sawhorse with the vertical slot to brace the board/clamp the top down against it and a second forehorse to cut towards/side around behind the blade once you get far enough?


----------



## DavePolaschek

Resawing again. 22×6x4/4 walnut. Need two 22×6x3/8 pieces.










That's a big Bad Axe tenon saw, filed rip. I'm just about ready to turn the board over for the other half.

It's an awful lot like real work. Whew!

And (about an hour total)... scene.


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## DavePolaschek

Before putting away my kerfing plane after my recent bout of resawing, I decided to adjust the grip a little to make it more comfortable. Since it's cherry, it's pretty obvious where I've touched it up. Small adjustments with a rasp, but it's more comfortable in the hand now.



















Interestingly (to me at least), my thicker kerfing plane required less rounding in these spots. I think it's because that was made from a piece of 7/4 oak, rather than the 5/4 cherry, so it's quite a bit thicker, and is comfortable with a less rounded shape. Or maybe it's just that I haven't been using it as much lately so I haven't noticed that it needs tweaking.


----------



## DavePolaschek

Gave a dado saw (a 16" backsaw, with a very low hang angle) from Brian a try yesterday. It cut nice clean dados in 11" wide pine like it was butter.










It's a 16"er (almost 17 actually), filed 12ppi crosscut, with an olive handle. I'm pretty pleased with it!










Technique-wise, I find that when cutting dados in a wide board, I start on the far edge, just establish a kerf, then drop the saw, just establish a kerf on the near edge, then drop the saw flat and connect the lines. If there's any warp in the board, it's a lot easier to cut with the hollow up so I'm not starting a cut over the whole width of the board.


----------



## theoldfart

Nice Bearcat Dave.


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## bandit571

A D100 and a D-115….just fancy D-8s…









Disston No. 4 at work…(14", 9ppi, freshly sharpened)









Came back home with a No. 68…









Might find some use for these…









Besides this Sears Chrome Edge 5-1/2 rip saw…..


----------



## bandit571

Rust hunting at an Estate Sale, today….$1 for a saw?









28" long, seems to have the full plate…









BIG teeth…stamped as a 5-1/2…









Readable etch has the "8" inside of the "D".....screws were "clocked" when I bought it..









Seems to be from before 1917?..... Just a dollar…


----------



## PCDub

I was just on NextDoor looking at the items in the for sale category, and found this:










They were FREE but posted over a week ago, so surely gone by now. The poster said "Either use them or do some decorating." Geeze!!

The middle saw in the photo looks a lot like the saw Bandit posted just above this…


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## Mosquito

Finally getting around to this… I've had this for probably 5 years now I think… Finally got around to cutting the saw plate shape out of it and will hopefully start making a handle this week. Decided it's about time to get around to making that small panel crosscut saw I meant to, to go with the rip I made a few years back…


----------



## bandit571

Remember to add the metal trim to the handle…









Steel, or..brass? 









Disston used steel..


----------



## HokieKen

Maybe it's just me Mos' but I think your sharpening the wrong side ;-)


----------



## rad457

NOW I know who out bid me on that Saw Vice Sorta funny looking "Back" Saw configuration?


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## bandit571

Maybe more like this?









Wentworth No. 1


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## Mosquito

lol just filing the plate to shape so far Kenny, but if I were sharpening, it's the hillbilly version with just the one tooth in the front 

Wasn't me Andre, I've had this vice for around 3 years now, and picked it up at an MWTCA swap meet

Bandit, don't think I'll go with metal trim, but on my Rip I added a little curly maple inlay diamond on the one side of the Sapele tote, so I may do some sort of inlay on the planned birdseye maple tote for this one.


----------



## Mosquito

Anyone have any higher PPI ratchet bars for a Foley 387 by chance (higher than 13)? I know Brian was looking in to making some, I'm just not sure I caught the conclusion of that endeavor


----------



## bearkatwood

I never found any, but would still like them too.


----------



## RonB57

None to spare here, but will look in to it. If you know anyone with a CNC mill they should be able to do them.


----------



## RonB57

Send me an E mail. I think a machinist I know will make some 14, 15, and 16ppi, but I don't know what the cost would be yet.


----------



## BillWhite

Anybody got a line on Z Saw (Pull saw) handles? I've got the blades (265mm rip blades), but my handle is trash. Got smashed. Woodcraft only sells complete "Z" saws, so no luck there.
Any help would be appreciated.


----------



## CaptainKlutz

> Anybody got a line on Z Saw (Pull saw) handles?
> - Bill White


Occasionally see a handle sold without a blade like the mfg catalog shows: 
https://www.z-saw.co.jp/en/pdf/catalog02_A4_1112.pdf
Maybe if you lived near Miki-city in Japan it would be easier? 

Amazon sells this one for about $64 with shipping, and this one for $47; which is about same price as complete saw from Woodcraft? Amazon sells several types of z-saw handles with blades for < $25.

Best Luck.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Anybody hear from Bob in Missoula lately? Hope he is doing okay.
Mike in CO


----------



## theoldfart

He's busy! He has taken on a couple of projects in his hometown not saw related.


----------



## Mosquito

Email sent to the one on your site Ron, thank you.

I've got a CNC, but it's a CNC router, and only 3-axis, so don't think I could make any. I do have a friend that makes a lot of machined parts for computer cases, turn tables, and stuff like that, so I could contact him/his machinist and see if he thinks he'd be able to make some up for me.


----------



## RonB57

I'll post when I hear back from him on cost.


----------



## BrentParkin

> I ll post when I hear back from him on cost.
> 
> - RonB57


 I would love to hear about that as well. I've been looking for years for the higher TPI ratchet bars to use in the retoother.

Regards,
Brent Parkin
White City, SK
Canada


----------



## KentInOttawa

FYI - a Foley Belsaw sharpener in Minnesota just showed up for sale in the vintage saws group on Facebook.


----------



## summerfi

Hi all. I'm still alive and well, just busier than all get out. Back in February we bought the 100 acre property my wife grew up on. It's in a very dilapidated state, and I've been working out there 3 or 4 days a week for the past 6 months getting it back into respectable condition. The rest of the week I'm trying to keep my head above water at home, including working on a large backlog of saws. Who knew retirement could be so much work? Hope everyone is well. Keep on sawin'.


----------



## theoldfart

Bob, glad to see you came for some air. Fires here are pretty small still, got our fingers crossed. Still need to contribute to your backlog when I get some time to evaluate and pack 'em up. Hope the family is well.


----------



## bandit571

Cleaned back up for another 100+ years…



























28" long, with a slight breast to the tooth line..









About a 1917 model D8 ( no hyphen) 5-1/2 Rip saw…









Next to my D-115…

Bought at an Estate Sale for a $1…


----------



## Mosquito

Some plate and back polishing left to do, and final sharpening, otherwise just waiting on saw bolts to show up for this dovetail saw (10")










And also working on the small crosscut panel saw you're as well now. Hoping to get these both done and ready before the parts for my miter saw show up (also has the hardware for these two saws in that order)


----------



## CL810

Beautiful Mos, how are you going to finish the birdseye maple (?) to make it pop?


----------



## Mosquito

Thanks Any, I'm not sure yet. I might just do straight shellac on it, and let them do whatever it is they'll do. Otherwise I was also thinking about a little vintage maple dye in some thinned down shellac, as the first sanding coat, and then just clear over that, but I'm not entirely sure yet


----------



## CL810

Can't wait to see what you end up doing.


----------



## controlfreak

I have been using a Japanese pull saw for dovetails but have a craving for a pistol grip dovetail saw. Anyone have any suggestions? I have a full set of files and my second saw vise on the way so I am not afraid of going vintage. I am a little afraid of the possibility that people may pot a tenon saw as a dovetail and the pictures may not reveal that. New is also an option and want quality but don't think my present skill set calls for the super premium either.


----------



## HokieKen

A lot of people recommend the Veritas dovetail saw as a good budget-friendly saw CF.

Mine was made by a friend and fellow LJ but I don't think he's doing them anymore.


If I were in the market, I'd most likely buy one from Erik Florip.

This is one saw that I wouldn't go vintage on UNLESS you're pretty proficient at sharpening or are going to pay someone who is to sharpen it. Those tiny little 15-20 ppi teeth are hard to see and if it requires any significant reshaping or setting, it turns into a pretty major chore. For me at least.


----------



## Mosquito

Thanks Andy, on some scraps I might try some sort of drying oil under it, like tung oil or danish oil, to see if that brings it out in a way that I'd like. I have only done limited work with Birdseye, so I'm always open to suggestions to try too 

CF, for new, Veritas is a decent option for under $100, though I've heard complaints about the handles not being that comfortable, as well as having heard people that love them, so like all things it's a personal preference. With good practice, even a mildly good dovetail saw can work wonders.

I have a vintage Spear & Jackson saw that I've been using since my apartment shop days (10 years ago already?!). First vintage saw I ever bought, cleaned up, and sharpened. This has been my go-to dovetail saw since I got it cleaned up back then, and I even sold my LN dovetail saw in favor of this one.



















It's still not that pretty, and truthfully I haven't re-shaped the teeth since I got it either, so they're a little funky yet, but it cuts fine and I can still manage to get good dovetail fits right off the saw with it.










We'll see how this new one I'm making works out. I've had the saw plate and spine for probably 4 years now, and just finally getting around to making the saw.


----------



## DavePolaschek

> have a craving for a pistol grip dovetail saw. Anyone have any suggestions?


Keep an eye on eBay. Search for misspellings, and you'll see things go by for cheap because the seller can't be bothered to spell-check. Or like this one I scored for a double sawbuck that has been rehandled.










The plate is good, but some previous owner sanded off most of the etch. It'll make a fine saw for me some day, and I've already got a chunk of apple picked out to be a new handle for it.

But it'll probably be a couple years before it's ready to go. I've also got a Florip, a Bearkat, a Cosman, a couple Bad Axes, and a Veritas. The Veritas is the best value. The Cosman is my daily driver at the moment. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend any of them, but Mark at Bad Axe just lost his wife and partner, so they're running six weeks behind on all orders.


----------



## bandit571

For working in very thin stock…









and..
.








My other two go-to saws…both of these are 9ppi, filed rip…first one is 24ppi.


----------



## controlfreak

> This is one saw that I wouldn t go vintage on UNLESS you re pretty proficient at sharpening or are going to pay someone who is to sharpen it. Those tiny little 15-20 ppi teeth are hard to see and if it requires any significant reshaping or setting, it turns into a pretty major chore. For me at least.
> 
> - HokieKen


I have a vintage Atkins tenon saw with fine teeth. I have only gotten halfway down one side. Even After buying a jeweler loop I am having a lot of trouble. I started filing as a cross cut but frankly I am having trouble even being positive about that.


----------



## shampeon

I'm lucky enough to have an Erik Florip saw from before he went full time, as part of an LJ tool swap, and it's my most used saw around the shop. So if you're looking to buy new, I fully support throwing money his way.

I'm very sorry to hear about Mark's loss, Dave. That's awful.

I've restored some vintage dovetail saws, and tried resharpening them with limited success. High TPI saws are just really tough to sharpen. If you want to go vintage, having the teeth recut is an option if you have someone local who knows what they're doing and has the equipment, or sending it off.


----------



## enjuneer

> Thanks Any, I m not sure yet. I might just do straight shellac on it, and let them do whatever it is they ll do. Otherwise I was also thinking about a little vintage maple dye in some thinned down shellac, as the first sanding coat, and then just clear over that, but I m not entirely sure yet
> 
> - Mosquito


These birdseye maple handles were soaked in BLO and then left to dry for about a week. They were then buffed with a cotton cloth and then paste wax was applied. The linseed oil penetrates deeply into the maple, bringing out the colors.


----------



## Mosquito

Awesome Bob, thank you! Those look great, I like the look of them, so I'll have to take that in to consideration


----------



## bandit571

> For working in very thin stock…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and..
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My other two go-to saws…both of these are 9ppi, filed rip…first one is 24ppi.
> 
> - bandit571


BTW: that row of teeth at the bottom of that last picture? They belong to a Disston D-112…









Happen to have it and the D-100..








have trouble between the 112 and 115 saws…..thinking this one is a 112…
Almost twins?


----------



## Mosquito

There's always been something about the carved handles that have drawn me in. Not necessarilly just the wheat handles, as I have some Atkins saws with the vine and floral pattern too, that I like. Wish I could carve worth a darn, but might have to look in to adding something…

On the subject of dovetail saws, what are people's preference for hang on their dovetail saws? I've not tried a super high hang angle saw yet, but I'm half tempted to try making one, but not sure if I'd like it. I think I tend to prefer a lower hang angle, at least with panel saws. I keep going back and forth on the one I'm making currently


----------



## donwilwol

You can't go wrong with either Erik or Bob's, but anyone remember Wally? I have this saw https://www.lumberjocks.com/projects/92381

I did a review here. https://www.lumberjocks.com/donwilwol/blog/39131

Wally hasn't posted in several years. He had some talent too.


----------



## Mosquito

Ah yes, I do remember Wally, and I agree


----------



## DavePolaschek

> On the subject of dovetail saws, what are people's preference for hang on their dovetail saws? I've not tried a super high hang angle saw yet, but I'm half tempted to try making one, but not sure if I'd like it. I think I tend to prefer a lower hang angle, at least with panel saws. I keep going back and forth on the one I'm making currently


The Cosman dovetail saw that I'm using while cutting my bookcases has a pretty high hang angle. Seems to work fine for me, but I also saw most of my dovetails at the twin screw face vise on my bench, while seated on a rolling mechanics stool. This is, from what I can determine, how almost nobody else in the universe saws dovetails. And yet it works for me.

I do stand up to make the miter cuts, as those are angled down 45 degrees on the back side of the board. Gotta get an angle on those.


----------



## bandit571

Makes two of us…as I do 90% of my joinery work seated on my shop stool…


----------



## CL810

I recently listened to a Shop Talk Live podcast where they talked about BLO being the best to make the Birdseye pop.

The handles look great Bob.



> These birdseye maple handles were soaked in BLO and then left to dry for about a week. They were then buffed with a cotton cloth and then paste wax was applied. The linseed oil penetrates deeply into the maple, bringing out the colors.
> 
> - enjuneer


----------



## CL810

Mos, the hang angle on the Bad Axe dovetail saw is perfect for me. The hang angle on the Veritas dovetail saw caused the back side of the saw cuts to finish higher than 
the front side.

Not sure if that makes sense! Lol! But if you can get your hands on one I'm sure you'll see the difference.


----------



## rad457

I re-handled a couple of crown gents saws with a pattern taken from my Gramercy did different hang angles, so one is now a bench saw(low angle) and the other (same angle as the Gramercy) with some fine tuning is actually not a bad Dove tailers. The Veritas is not used often if ever? For any fine detail work, Japanese pull or a Zona.


----------



## garethmontreal

> Keep an eye on eBay. Search for misspellings, and you'll see things go by for cheap because the seller can't be bothered to spell-check. Or like this one I scored for a double sawbuck that has been rehandled.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Dave Polaschek


I cannot agree strongly enough with this advice. Some the best/oldest saws I have were acquired on eBay this way. I can require a lot squinting at photos eBay trying figure who's name is on the saw. Also if your primarily looking at British saws Simon barley's "British saws and saw makers since c1660" is literally invaluable as a reference.


----------



## HokieKen

I have one of those Crown saws Andre. I've been meaning to re-handle it for ages but never got around to it. Probably never will at this point but who knows ;-)

I'm like Dave, when sawing dovetails, I clamp the board in either my leg vise or my end vise. In either case, the end of the board winds up just above the top of my bench. Then I sit on a stool to saw. So a relatively high (or is it low? where the handle is closer to vertical?) hang angle suits me. But, with light-weight saws, I don't really find the hang to be particularly important to me. With larger, heavier saws it is because of the increased reaction forces. The saw being heavier and harder to push through the cut means that if my forearm isn't aligned to the handle, either my motion is inefficient or I have to change my alignment which can decrease control.

In any case, hang angle isn't one of my main concerns when choosing a saw. If buying a first saw, I wouldn't give hang angle a lot of consideration. New handles aren't hard to make if you decide you want to re-hang it


----------



## Mosquito

> Mos, the hang angle on the Bad Axe dovetail saw is perfect for me. The hang angle on the Veritas dovetail saw caused the back side of the saw cuts to finish higher than
> the front side.
> 
> Not sure if that makes sense! Lol! But if you can get your hands on one I'm sure you'll see the difference.
> 
> - CL810


I'd love to get my hands on one… I recently got a bonus at work for utilization (overtime, but I'm salaried), and some Bad Axe saws were something I was considering, though the recent news of his wife's passing may be the tipping point in deciding against that. Not that I can't wait on a 6 week lead time, I just don't want to add to the burden.

But that makes total sense. That makes it sound like the hang angle on the Veritas is higher, causing the toe to go up when you're holding the saw naturally. I'm sure it's partially what you're used to with the Bad Axe, and your work holding to body position mechanics too.

Kenny, the closer the handle is to perpendicular to the saw teeth, the lower the hang angle. The more parallel to the tooth line, the higher. So a Gents saw hang angle would be 90° It's the intersection between handle angle and toothline

Isaac at Blackburn has a good article on hang angle, what it is, its impact on stance and force applied http://www.blackburntools.com/blog/concerning-hang-angles-and-saw-handles/

Here's an image to help illustrate it


----------



## Mosquito

So I suppose my question around hang angle missed the caveat of how people work.

For Dovetails, I use a benchtop moxon vise, which raises my work by about 6", so the lower hang angles help me to keep a decent standing posture with out screwing up my sawing arm/wrist alighment. I definitely do feel a lot better dovetailing there than the leg vise for extended periods of time (I've often thought I should modify my moxon to have a platform for chopping dovetail waste too, for this reason)


----------



## HokieKen

Got it. So a low hang angle makes sense for sitting down to cut dovetails. I just eyeballed the hang angle on my dovetail saw and it looks like it's around 35 degrees.


----------



## DavePolaschek

> I'd love to get my hands on one… I recently got a bonus at work for utilization (overtime, but I'm salaried), and some Bad Axe saws were something I was considering, though the recent news of his wife's passing may be the tipping point in deciding against that. Not that I can't wait on a 6 week lead time, I just don't want to add to the burden.


Knowing what I do of Mark, I would say go ahead and order. He's probably worrying about the backlog some, but he's also enough of a businessman to know that he needs orders to keep the lights on. And Mark makes damned nice saws.

If you haven't read the details, here's his post about her passing.

When I mentioned that I sit down cutting dovetails, I also mentioned that I use a Rob Cosman dovetail saw, which has something like a 35 or 40 degree hang angle, too. I have no idea how it's comfortable, and I don't recommend the peened-on brass back from a maintainability standpoint, the saw cuts dovetails in pine like crazy, so I'm going to keep using it until it's dull.

Since I clearly haven't figured out everything about hang angle, my recommendation is to try a few saws. If you have time for a field trip to Superior, Mark will let you test drive his saws in his shop as part of giving you a tour (call or email ahead), which we did for a day-trip to LaCrosse back when I bought my first Bad Axe. Well worth the drive for me.


----------



## CL810

I hadn't thought that through Mos, but it is spot on. I use a moxon vise as well.

BTW, I waited 13 weeks or more for one of my Bad Axe Saw and it's a great saw. But, I think I'd check out the Florip line of saws if I was in the market.

I have a rip panel saw that Wally331 made for me and it's a great saw. But he hasn't posted on LJ since '17. I've always wondered how his NBSS experience went. Seemed like a great guy.



> So I suppose my question around hang angle missed the caveat of how people work.
> 
> For Dovetails, I use a benchtop moxon vise, which raises my work by about 6", so the lower hang angles help me to keep a decent standing posture with out screwing up my sawing arm/wrist alighment. I definitely do feel a lot better dovetailing there than the leg vise for extended periods of time (I ve often thought I should modify my moxon to have a platform for chopping dovetail waste too, for this reason)
> 
> - Mosquito


----------



## bandit571

Normal setting.
.








I just sit down on my shop stool, and saw away…


----------



## Mosquito

If I did more dovetailing I would probably have a dedicated joinery bench, but then I'd have to make room for that lol


----------



## rad457

Can you guess which handle was made first?


----------



## Karda

hi, i was givin this 5 point rip saw today, i would like to know if anybody knows what model saw it is. Its a disston. The lower part of the handle is broken and I can't get the handle of. I put it in a vise and could move the hasndle about .25'' got any ideas thanks


----------



## bandit571

Disston No. 7


----------



## BlasterStumps

The holes in the saw plate are most likely burred enough that they are catching on the wood. I think I would just drive the handle off with a hammer and block of wood.


----------



## Karda

ok thanks, any idea on the age. I was looking at the disston site and there is a medallion that looks like mine that was used from 1896 to 1917 not sure so far that is all I can fine. now that I no what it is I can look for the handle


----------



## bandit571

After 1928..nibs were gone from the top edges of saw blades…so, this saw is from before 1928…

Have two No. 7s in the saw til…..after 1928, they became D-7s…


----------



## Karda

ok thanks


----------



## KentInOttawa

I picked up an 10" steel-backed Drabble & Sanderson last year on eBay. Overall it is in pretty good condition, so all that I've done is to oil and wax it.



























The split nuts are in pretty rough condition and the blade is a little bit wobbly. It's not severe, but I would like it to be tighter. I understand that making a split-nut driver to remove or tighten the blade is one way to go, but I also know that this also runs the risk of breaking the split nuts. Is there a safer way to tighten the blade?


----------



## kwigly

Kent, the safer way is to squeeze the handle cheeks together with a clamp, and then just take up the slack in the split nuts / screws


----------



## bandit571

Picked this morning..









D-8, 10ppi, 26" long…
.








Seems to be right at the change over from Disston to Disston/HK Porter era…price was right…









Nothing broken, nothing bent..nothing missing…doubt if there is an etch…Just needs cleaned up.


----------



## garethmontreal

> The split nuts are in pretty rough condition and the blade is a little bit wobbly. It s not severe, but I would like it to be tighter. I understand that making a split-nut driver to remove or tighten the blade is one way to go, but I also know that this also runs the risk of breaking the split nuts. Is there a safer way to tighten the blade?
> 
> - Kent


May I recommend going real easy when trying to tighten split nuts and whatever you do don't undo them completely. The threads get mangled very easily and it can be next impossible to get them back on. I did it on the first saw I tried to fix up.


----------



## KentInOttawa

Kwigley & Gareth - thanks. That definitely sounds like a safer first approach. It will be a while before I get to that, but I will get back to this thread when I have.


----------



## Karda

Hi, i can't remember if i have asked trhis but I am asking if anybody can identify this saw, no etch no madallion. The saw is a 26" scew back cross cut. thanks Mike


----------



## bandit571

Maybe look up the Disston D-16…..


----------



## Karda

I looked a a reference on the Disston #16 and D16 my handle looksi like the #16 but the round notch on the top ismore of a rounded slot, mine is a slow curve and #16 was carved The D16 looks more like mine but is blocky and not carved.


----------



## Karda

I was checking the templates against the saw handles and they don't line up and the holes don't line up. The #7 templates are cross and rip. the cross cut template has a lambs tongue the rip don't but my handle from a rip saw has a lambs tongue what is happening here


----------



## BlasterStumps

My guess Karda is that it is a Warranted Superior made by Disston


----------



## Sawron

Felt like trying to morph my style into a panel saw handle, needed to doodle freehand some until I was happy with the proportions though I was a bit constrainted at the bottom edge due to lack of room down there, still had some fun with the front/top by beaking it up a little.


----------



## bandit571

That "Fifty Cent Saw" I picked? Spent a little time cleaning it up..









Got the worst off with a "scraper" chisel…including some paint blobs, and even some tar?









80 grit, then 220 grit….then wipe down with 3in1 oil….Hardware was shined up..









And the handle was refinished…sanded the old flaky stuff off, Gunstock Stain to seal things up…









Screws slots were clocked….









Handle is quite comfy to use….a test drive?









Cuts nice and easy…and fast..









Might be a keeper? Disston D-8, 10ppi, 26" length..1955 model….


----------



## Sawron

I thought clocked meant all of them the same way?









I usually check by crossing my eyes until they merge, gotta do it a couple times with a three bolt saw, prolly get a headache on a five or six bolt one.

Forgot this piece of wood had a couple of staples for a support since it was from a big cabinet door, tried to cut them out in the finger oval but couldn't hit all of them cleanly. Prolly drip some superglue in there later and sprinkle sawdust before I polish it off.


----------



## Karda

My Simonds panel saw is done, except for sharpening, the handle took most of the time.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Nice work Bandit.

Looking good there Max.

Karda, nice work there too. Handle turned out good.


----------



## Karda

thanks


----------



## Sawron

It'd be nice to feel safe enough to head out rust hunting, but living in one of the states that has been pretending the coof didn't exist when it wasn't pretending it was already cured… I'll happily remain a shut-in still.


----------



## Sawron

Oh, thank ya btw, didn't have the page refreshed so I only saw the rusthunting cleanup results!

Been cleaning up some, rearranging some furniture, and replacing some stuff which meant it was time to check and see if any of the old stuff was actually made out of anything interesting, and while I was initially quite excited to notice what looked like proper dovetails when I pulled the drawer out of a little moosehead end table, after pulling it apart I discovered they were just sloppily routed fakes and a bunch of glue… still, checking around until I found the matching table online confirmed my suspicions after drawing a pattern onto/cutting out a rough blank.








One of these things is not like the other…








One of these is HARD maple, and lemme tell ya what a rude awakening it is to go from being able to loosely fit coped out lines and effortlessly flick away bits of pine with my iwasaki files… to realizing I was going to have to recope this bastard hunk of wood MUCH closer to the desired lines before busting out the grizzly half-round coarse rasp, THEN switch to a medium rasp, and finally go back to my beloved carving files.

Once I got the spine/blade/bolts seated I realized I would have to pop it back out to finish off some final detailing but urgh, gotta let my shoulder and fingers relax after all that rasping.


----------



## bandit571

This one will take a while to clean up..









20" D8 Panel saw…10ppi









Cramped even for a 3 finger grip…


----------



## RonB57

OK folks.
I should have some ratchet bars coming my way soon. 14,15, and 16 ppi. It looks like approx. $70.00 each plus shipping. Just an FYI. I am not making anything from these. That's pretty much my cost.
I will post when I get them in my hands and the bill as well.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Found this thing today for one dolla. I'll have to explore what type blades to get for the occasional use I will have for it. Might have to look into a fret saw board to go with.


----------



## Karda

Hi, I want to make a saw filing guide like the one in Brits video but when I try to set the rack angle I can't figure it out, The protractor looks like it is set about 70 degrees but he says its 14 degrees what an I missing thanks


----------



## theoldfart

Blaster, find yourself a mixed set of Pegus blades. I think Woodcraft has them.

Edit: Tools for Working wood has Pegas

Woodcraft does not carry them, I was incorrect.


----------



## KentInOttawa

> Hi, I want to make a saw filing guide like the one in Brits video but when I try to set the rack angle I can t figure it out, The protractor looks like it is set about 70 degrees but he says its 14 degrees what an I missing thanks
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Karda


14 degrees from the perpendicular (90 degrees) is 76 or 104 degrees. HTH.


----------



## Karda

ok thanks


----------



## Sawron

> Blaster, find yourself a mixed set of Pegus blades. I think Woodcraft has them.
> 
> Edit: Tools for Working wood has Pegas
> 
> Woodcraft does not carry them, I was incorrect.
> 
> - theoldfart


I swear by Pegas blades, the skip tooth ones in particular are amazing little sawdust generators, and you REALLY gotta screw up and let them get ridiculously hot (hot enough to feel it before you touch it) before you risk poinking one across the room. I use the 5 inch pinned scroll saw skip tooth and just cycle through three framesaws as I start to feel them overheat.

Needed to back them out and cycle more often with that maple I've been playing with. I was testing a new coping V setup and grabbed a scrap bit of pine to test it out, after struggling to connect cuts through the maple, felt like I was coping a stick of butter.








I enjoy the challenge and all but man, screw rock maple, heavy jerk punk wood thinks it's too good to be worked with… teach it a razzerfrazzer… *trails off mumbling*


----------



## rad457

> Blaster, find yourself a mixed set of Pegus blades. I think Woodcraft has them.
> 
> Edit: Tools for Working wood has Pegas
> 
> Woodcraft does not carry them, I was incorrect.
> 
> - theoldfart


Lee valley sells Pegas blades and a lot of other Fret saw blades?


----------



## bearkatwood

craigslist foley sharpening gear.


















 
Ebay Foley ratchet bars set









 
Ebay carrier bars


----------



## RonB57

Good morning.
I should have some ratchet bars by the end of this week. I believe he is sending me 4 of each ppi. 14, 15, 16. The cost looks like about $70.00 ea. plus shipping. Give me a heads up is you would like one or a set. 
Ron


----------



## bandit571

Something strange department….

While cleaning that 20" panel this morning, to the point where I can actually read the etch….

Etch is the 1917 era style Henry Disston & Sons, keystone saw works with the keystone and balance scales ( no number inside), Cast steel 7 Warranted…

handle details?








Open top handle, end of the saw plate in the handle is straight..
Hmmm….except…









This is a skew back saw…..

Have been going all through the Disstonian web site….nada..?

Appears to have been made before 1920…maybe by 1917, or so?

When the handle was removed..there was a "7", or maybe and I or L stamp.


----------



## Karda

maybe wrong handle for the saw or a proto type or a factory goof. nice saw is it a collectible or a user


----------



## bandit571

The 3 holes match right up between the handle and the plate. I did find most of an etch…









Once I got the plate cleaned off.

Handle was removed, brass bolts were shined up…









Wood was sanded, soaked in BLO while I worked on the plate….a coat of Gunstock oil stain, allow to dry, then another thin coat of BLO over that…









It has been sharpened enough times, that only the "0" is left of the "10" stamp.

The etch?

From the top down….
EXTRA
HENRY DISSTON & SONS
KEYSTONE ( keystone with the scales only inside) SAW WORKS
PHILADELPHIA U S A
CAST STEEL 7 WARRANTED

Then a bunch of smudged stuff. There is fancy lines above and below the KEYSTONE SAW WORKS…
Near as I can tell…this seems to be from before 1917….

Handle is an "open top", instead of the normal D8 closed top….

Hmmmmm…


----------



## Karda

beautiful saw. I know warranted superior is a second grade saw, what does it mean when they use just the warranted. What is the difference between a closed and an open top handle


----------



## bandit571

The "Warranted" means it is warrantied against any defects….in the saw….Disston would replace that saw.

Warranted Superior over in the UK…was the "Top of the Line" for their saws….


----------



## Sawron

Closed and open is whether they cut through the top when doing the slot, D8 isn't cut, D7 is basically the same as I recall but is cut through.

Lot easier and faster to just cut straight through to the right depth than it is to cut out a closed top slot. Disston went about it using a circular saw apparently and doing that profile for the back of the blade.

I've been kinda reinventing something I think is called a purfling knife like luthiers use to clear the inlay slots because it's the only simple way to get that back corner open really.

At least with a backsaw spine you can drill the width/depth and connect the slot to it easily enough.


----------



## bandit571

Fancy little saw..









And…









I'll have to clean both up….and see what I have for $4…


----------



## bandit571

Cleaned the saw a little bit….readable etch on both the "bar" and the plate….
GEO BISHOP & CO. No. 10

Most of the fine teeth are worn away…larger (rip?) teeth seem to be in good shape…


----------



## RonB57

For those that were interested. The ratchet bars arrived. I have two sets of 14, 15, and 16ppi left. 
Best wishes.
Ron


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Great deal on that Bishop's Patent!


----------



## Sawron

Those weird little sliding saws were for flooring or something right?

Changed my mind on the thickness of that other tote I did after using it for a little bit while dismantling a dresser bit by bit. Always end up with weird spots that feel like they're gonna turn into calluses with a chunkier tote.









I like the aesthetics of a chonker tote, they look "right" in a classic sense but the more delicate ones just feel better, I think I subconsciously squeeze the big ones more or something, while I just hold the thinner ones enough to guide the cut.









Did the profile at the front so I can put a thumb in there comfortably too if I need to.

Also happy birthday to me, everybody gets so bummed on my birthday, like dang.


----------



## bandit571

Step up to the bar…









Geo. H. Bishop & CO. Pat. JAN"Y 9-08

As for the saw set..









Cleaned up..









Has a sliding "anvil" and..









This slider….might be a Morrill #1B, about 1880s?


----------



## bandit571

Bishop No. 10..









Handle details..









And, there is even a patent date on the other side of the handle…









Interesting…..try again on the etch..









Readable, just hard to get the camera to see it..


----------



## Karda

Hi, i grabbed this 24" panel saw, the handle fit my hand so nice. and the teeth look like they were just sharpened before it was put away for years. Does anybody have any who made it, no medallion and no etch.


----------



## Sawron

So I've been fooling myself into thinking I liked low hang on my little panel saw handles and realized that no, in fact, I do not.
















Setting the top line with the back of the saw and lining the teeth up similarly to the way I aim hang angles with backsaws cleared up all the little annoyances I kept having. Weird chatter/biteyness, weird spots starting to callus, inability to keep my cuts lined up without fiddly little microadjustments all the time.








Hacked the sides off that chunk of sycamore behind the saw there before wasting out the inner curve/shoulder ends so I could get started on a handy little brace I wanted to make. I've been putting off because it was so frustrating to cut with the weird feeling I get with such low hang. Seems I was trying to work against myself before, instead of the whole thing going fast enough that I started to scare the missus because she thought something was on fire. Then she figured out it was just the sides of the cut heating up against the saw.

Still got some finishing touches to do on the handle but I had to switch gears because it's more of that granite-wannabe-punk maple.


----------



## KentInOttawa

I just received my *new* boite à recaler. Don't you know that I just had to give it a whirl.



















Dang, now I need a scie à recaler so that I don't do any more damage to it.


----------



## bandit571

Resting saws…









One is getting a habit of just laying around…









While letting the other do all the work….


----------



## theoldfart

Kent, get a hold of Bob Summerfield. He used mine as a model and made two or three.


----------



## bearkatwood

I just got done making a batch of miter Jack saws for Dan Schwank at Red Rose Reproductions. I have a couple left over that didn't make the muster and have a defect if you are interested in one. 












































Been lurking around with not much to say here lately. I have been having a little fun playing around with unusual materials for handles. I did a set of saws with stabilized maple I found on the beach years back.



















My weirdest one is a collaboration with another woodworker who has sent me some epoxy blocks to use. This one I called the ghost saw. It is a love it or hate it thing. We have a few with burl wood suspended in the block that should be fun. This one was made with a nickel silver back and bolts.




































Most of the time I just do my usual saws, though I am working on a fun one today in walnut.

It is a carcass saw plate that will be filed sort of hybrid with 14ppi. I pulled out one of my first saws to try and get some inspiration to play with the look. I like how the toe turned out.
Keep up the great work folks, this is a fun forum to watch.


----------



## KentInOttawa

> I just got done making a batch of miter Jack saws for Dan Schwank at Red Rose Reproductions. I have a couple left over that didn t make the muster and have a defect if you are interested in one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - bearkatwood


PM en route..


----------



## DavePolaschek

I've got a bearkat saw which has a defect according to Brian. It's my go-to for cross-cutting damned near anything at the moment (at least partly because I don't have a slot for it in my saw till, so it's sitting out most of the time), and if I didn't have one of Bob's scie à recalers already, I'd be messaging Brian for one of his. Very satisfied customer of both Bob and Brian.

Last I heard, Bob is busier than a one-armed paper-hanger this summer, so don't despair if you message him and he doesn't answer right away.

Brian, those ghost saws definitely hit my uncanny valley. They look enough like a saw to be pretty dang disturbing. ;-)


----------



## KentInOttawa

I knew that Bob had a couple that he had made and sold, and I also know from here that he's quite busy. I was hoping for an alternative to fall in front of me that would be easier for me to work my way through. I think that may have just happened. Woo hoo!

eBay is pretty much my only other avenue for purchase, and that well is quite dry.


----------



## theoldfart

Brian, nice mitre saws.

Kent, don't forget to get a mitre plane as well!


----------



## KentInOttawa

> Brian, nice mitre saws.
> 
> Kent, don t forget to get a mitre plane as well!
> 
> - theoldfart


Ching, ching!!!!!


----------



## theoldfart

Yup


----------



## Sawron

That ghost saw handle is kinda what I was thinking of for a "Woo Future Saw" idea with some fiber optics and a battery/button setup in the medallion to light it up from the inside.

Not actually a saw but I'm pretty happy about my first bit brace, though it will be handy for cutting out some chunks on handle blanks in the future.


----------



## Mosquito

Finally got all my saw hardware in (after waiting over a month for it to ship, and then 2 weeks for USPS to figure out how to get it here).

So I drilled for and installed the hardware. Still have some polishing up to finish, but I couldn't resist taking it for a test run









Though I'm thinking now I should have taken the time to plane off the pencil marks on the pine dovetails lol


----------



## donwilwol

Looks good Mos. I agree, the pencil marks need to go.


----------



## DavePolaschek

Mos, nice little saw!

When I'm cutting dovetails, I always gang cut the tails boards with the insides out, so that's where the marks are. Nothing to plane off there if everything is cut well.

I've been cutting enough dovetails lately that I've dulled one of my dovetail saws. Luckily I have another that's sharp, since all the saw sharpening services I know are backed up pretty badly, and I haven't yet figured out how to sharpen my saws myself. That'll happen when I rehab this one I bought off eBay, but I'm also planning to replace the (non-original) handle and nuts.










And here are the cases I've built (minus one that was still drying in the shop last night)


----------



## Mosquito

The pencil lines are actually on the pin boards from transferring the tails.

I've found I prefer transferring with mechanical pencil rather than knife or any other "trick". I've used pencil, marking knife, leave the waste and pull the saw out of the kerf, the use a feeler gauge to offset the board and use the the saw to make the starting line… While there are merits to some, I suppose, my favorite and most consistent is generally just marking with my .5mm mechanical pencil and cut touching but not taking it. Just seems to work best for me, probably because I've used it the most at this point, but to each their own, there's so many ways to do dovetails lol

If I'm doing a lot of drawers or something, I often cut the angles for the tails at the bandsaw, and then remove the waste at the bench, and cut the pin boards by hand


----------



## CL810

Saw looks great Mos!

DTs in pine are hard. You make it look easy.


----------



## DavePolaschek

Yeah, I have pencil lines on the pin boards, too. I use number 2 Dixon Ticonderogas, and have a pencil sharpener near the bench. I *just* take the lines off, and mostly end up with good dovetails. Except when I get wobbly cutting out the waste with my turning saw, and get a gap along the baseline.

The thing I *like* about DTs in pine is that you can cut them a little tight and just mash the pine together, but I try not to do that too often, since I've split a board that way, too. Got it all glued up and my guess is that the glue swelled the wood just enough that when I came back the next morning, I had a crack. Oops!

I've thought about using the bandsaw, but my bookcase production line means I'm only cutting DTs for one box a day, so I'm not trying to hurry things along. Plus, I'm retired, so I'm not in a huge hurry. We'll see what my attitude is when I start making the 50 drawers for my hardware cabinet…


----------



## Mosquito

Thanks Andy. I hate dovetailing pine, personally, as it means I have to be less lazy, and sharpen my chisels more often lol It was the most readily available scraps I had around that weren't oak lol

Yah Dave, I hear ya. Get 'em close and smash 'em together has worked wonders for me before, but I too have split some boards that way  
I'm also limited on my bandsaw capacity for how I cut them too. I use a little wedge sled, almost like a taper jig for cutting the tails. Lets me set the fence, cut one side, flip the board and cut the other (for all the boards) then move the fence and keep doing that repeatedly. But then that eventually requires me to be able to get to the middle of the board with the fence plus wedge guide, so I max out at probably 14" wide board or so


----------



## bandit571

Poplar doesn't seem too bad to dovetail…









Then a bit of stain and varnish…


----------



## KentInOttawa

Looks good, Bandit. I'll soon need to get some poplar and start to practice.


----------



## KentInOttawa

> I just got done making a batch of miter Jack saws for Dan Schwank at Red Rose Reproductions. I have a couple left over that didn t make the muster and have a defect if you are interested in one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - bearkatwood


I've been tracking one of these saws since it was shipped from Brian in WA to Ottawa, ON. Modern logistics are really weird. This saw travelled a little over 1800 miles and took 4 days to get just 100 miles north of Brian. It arrived here in great shape today.










It will need some oil and wax added as well as an eye hook to hang it, but that's an exercise for another day.
Still, I'm tickled pink to have it and I'm anxious to get the opportunity to give it a whirl.


----------



## Karda

hi, I picked up a nice old saw at a sale, turns out it is a Disston D8 rip, 1896-1917 I usually strip the handle and oil it but on this handle the original finish is complete just scuffed and dirty and some paint spots. How can i refinish this and preserve as much as I can. thanks Mike


----------



## Karda

Hi, I found this Disston D8 last week, it was in prey good condition, i found a good etch and dated it to 1896 to 1917 from the medallion. I scrapped of the old finish and oiled the handle with BLO and cover that with Howards feed and wax.


----------



## bandit571

Finally got 2 saws back from the sharpening service, yesterday…









Bishop No. 10….with the Greyhound logo….he even sharpened the "teeth" at the end of the plate. sharpened and set the coarse teeth….jointed of the fine teeth, and re-filed new….
The other saw?









A Disston panel saw….teeth are startig to get too brittle to do too much set…..called it crystallizing….Etch says it is a No. 7…...handle is an open-top. I can only get 3 fingers in the grip. 10ppi, just over 20" long plate.

Price for all of this sharpening? He simply said..$10…..for the pair. I said THANK YOU.


----------



## Karda

what type of saw is the top one, the teeth are on the top of the plate. That a very good deal for the sharpening


----------



## bandit571

there are also fine teeth along the bottom edge….you slide the plate up or down, as a depth stop.


----------



## Karda

so is it a reversible


----------



## bandit571

All depends on which set of teeth you need to use, and how deep you need to cut..









and..









The Fine teeth are more for crosscuts…
coarse teeth are set up for rips…









The bar not only holds the plate in place, is also serves as a depth stop.


----------



## Karda

ok thats neat


----------



## bandit571

Ok, once this box comes out of the clamps…









I'll need to saw the lid off, with a hand saw….as this won't fit in the bandsaw, like the last one did…so, have 3 options..
Option No. 1









Option No. 2









Or, Option No. 3









Should be interesting….


----------



## Karda

go for both


----------



## DavePolaschek

After multiple tries, I now use a large tenon saw when sawing open boxes. I would get just a little too much wander using a panel saw, and find that blue-tape on my cut line plus the extra stiffness from the backsaw helps me get a nice clean cut on the box. Plus, the backsaw I use has a slightly thinner kerf than my panel saws, so the grain looks better across the opening.

The downside is that I generally have to saw from both directions to open the box, but I find that's easier to do than getting a straight cut with the panel saw. Probably a personal problem…


----------



## bandit571

I suppose I could use this old No. 4…









The Bishop doesn't quite have the "range"...maybe on the corners?

Next size up? Also a No. 4….a 4" x 26" mitre saw….

Or, just set up the Stanley 45 with that slitting cutter….sides of the box are only 1/2", anyway…but, the cut line is almost 1" down from the top edge of the Lid….hmmm…


----------



## DavePolaschek

I like the idea of the 45 with the slitting cutter, but then you're in the wrong thread.

That No. 4 looks to me like it would do the job,


----------



## bandit571

Well, decide to re-do that No. 10 Bishop saw….









And set it up with the fine teeth….raised the bar a bit….wax the plate..









And separate the lid from the box….Long sides, I used a knife to finally finish the cuts…









Well, at least I made a pile of sawdust, today….









Seems to match the parts up, pretty well…








And THAT was my Cardio for today…


----------



## Karda

nice box, now I know how I will do mine if I ever build them, still in the thinking stage


----------



## garethmontreal

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/164406944884

Hi I was wondering if anybody could tell what this solid brass saw would be used for? I can't seem to find any information on it for sure. Cheers


----------



## Johnny7

Amputations - as the listing says, it's a bone saw


----------



## garethmontreal

I can't find any bone saws that have brass blades or that are three and a half inch blades. Salamans dictionary description of bone saws isn't even close and I can't find anything on the internet that small or with a brass blade. Your probably right though thanks for the information have a good one.


----------



## Brit

Yeah definitely a bone saw. Here is another brass one:

https://www.antiquesnavigator.com/d-3617603/vintage-english-medical-surgeon-brass-bone-saw--holborn-london-ss.html


----------



## garethmontreal

Thanks guys I think they lesson here is item listings on eBay have a description for a reason sorry for the hassle. Cheers, Gareth.


----------



## Karda

yea but listings are often wrong


----------



## Johnny7

> Thanks guys I think they lesson here is item listings on eBay have a description for a reason sorry for the hassle. Cheers, Gareth.
> 
> - garethmontreal


No hassle involved-there are no bad questions here!


----------



## Lazyman

> No hassle involved-*there are no bad questions here*!
> 
> - Johnny7


LOL. That sounds like a challenge to me…


----------



## siemensgeek

I bought this a couple of days ago. I see similar saw sets on ebay under various names who really made them? I see Bandit571 has a saw set like this one. Is this assembled correctly! The anvil will go in either direction. Does sliding the anvil change the amount of set or does it adjust for tooth size?


----------



## bandit571

Merrit No. 1 mainly for smaller teeth…


----------



## garethmontreal

> I bought this a couple of days ago. I see similar saw sets on ebay under various names who really made them? I see Bandit571 has a saw set like this one. Is this assembled correctly! The anvil will go in either direction. Does sliding the anvil change the amount of set or does it adjust for tooth size?
> 
> - siemensgeek


https://archive.org/details/fav-gtardkgb

I think i remember reading a original dealer instruction manual for this saw set on archive.org the other day. I put a link to a collection of hand saw docs on archive.org im pretty sure its in the list.


----------



## Karda

I think that is one of my sets only mine is missing the anvil and adjustment nut


----------



## bandit571

Just sitting around the shop…









Because I can't see tiny teeth well enough to USE this thing…









Haven't enough use for it, to keep it around…









Looks better, than when I brought it home….


----------



## paulm12

I'm mostly a lurker here, but always learning. Anyways, I found this saw a few weekends ago, didn't think too much about it since it was Warranted Superior, but then started to clean up a bit. I stopped cleaning once I could make out the name and am wondering if it has any value as a collector saw (and I should stop all cleaning), or just as a user.

Askham & Buxton ??

tx


----------



## rad457

Curious as to the best way too clean Saw plate and retain etching? Was just gifted a big old 28" 5 tpi that appears to have some fancy writing on it!


----------



## donwilwol

https://www.timetestedtools.net/2020/01/27/groves-sons-hand-saw-restoration/


----------



## DLK

*Learning to sharpen.*










I love my new Gramercy vise!


----------



## Brit

I love your new Gramercy vise too Don LOL. I also like the stand you made for it. However I'm happy with this one I picked up on ebay recently with 14" cork-lined jaws. I'm going to retire my big 28" saw vise as I don't really have anywhere to store it now.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Wow, nice Brit. African Mahogany?

First thing I would probably do though is file into the top edge. That is what I am famous for. Get something nice and screw it up right away. : (


----------



## Karda

thats a beautiful vise, to pretty to use


----------



## controlfreak

For a shop tool vise that is a work of art, yeah that's a keeper.


----------



## BlasterStumps

I made this saw vise a few years back. It's showing some scars now. Massaranduba.


----------



## Brit

Nothing wrong with a few scars Mike.

That Gramercy vice that Don treated himself to is a brilliant design IMO.


----------



## rad457

I built one based on your design Brit, but after acquiring a 28" rip saw, find it is to light and a pain to always reposition the blade? Might have to look into that Gramercy or build something more functional!

Edit, $275.00 CAN. might need to keep it on the Wish list for awhile?


----------



## DLK

Thanks Andy. Yourn new "ebay" vise sure is pretty, indeed a work of art. Blaster yours is nice too. I almost made one. I was so frustrated by my antique vise that I said F' it and bought the Gramercy. I even paid the upgrade on shipping too, so it totaled $219 USD ($286 CDN).

I made the the stand from scrap 1 inch thick plywood. with an open box that I can store saw files, magnifying eyeglasses, saw set, and etc. (I make 1 inch plywood by gluing 1/2 AC plywood back to back. This makes sheets that have no warp if you are careful with the glue up.) Putting a rubberized shelf liner keeps it from sliding on the bench.

This saw vise is so secure that it will even stiffing the plate an inch or so beyond the vise. It's fantastic.

I figure I need to remove every obstacle to saw sharpening I can, for otherwise I won't do it.

Here is a saw freshly sharpened to infinite TPI .










It leaves a very smooth kerf but cuts very very slowly. (I cut new teeth tomorrow.)


----------



## garethmontreal

Did a little cleaning on Canadian disston d8 . The etch seems to place before 1928 and the medallion seems to the type used from 1896-1917. I think I remember disaton Canada was setup in 1909 so this one would have been from the first few years of production.

Before










After










Here's I close up the etch after I used some perma blue. Thank you Don W great advice as usual.










Unfortunately the teeth a worn to nubs and super dull. I'm planning on learning how to file saws over the winter but Itll be a while before i can sharpen this one.


----------



## DLK

> Unfortunately the teeth a worn to nubs and super dull. I'm planning on learning how to file saws over the winter but It'll be a while before i can sharpen this one.
> 
> - garethmontreal


I think I said that 10 or so winters ago.


----------



## Brit

You got this Don.


----------



## HokieKen

I learned to sharpen my saws not too long ago. I mail them to Bob S  I can touch them up but I've just accepted that filing in new teeth or doing any major reshaping is something I plain don't care to do.

I like all the vises you fellas have ) Don, I have an antique one as well. I epoxied a strip of leather to one face and it's improved holding power immensely.


----------



## garethmontreal

> I've just accepted that filing in new teeth or doing any major reshaping is something I plain don't care to do.
> 
> - HokieKen


Fair enough some of the saws I have like jaws from James Bond tried to eat them for lunch. Im pretty some of them I'll never file new teeth in because a they are totally out of wack and b there is much plate left anyway. 
That said I would really like to be able to file the ones I really like myself. I only really started collecting old tools a couple years after I destroyed my shoulder and to quit my construction and basically stop doing any woodworking at all. So working on old hand tools was my only real connection to woodworking available. Even then trying to sharpen saws was to much and basically every time I tried I'd dislocate my shoulder again. I had a bone graft in January and it's really now it's going useful again. I've staring at full saws for two years and now I can finally do something about.


----------



## HokieKen

Good luck Gareth. Don't misunderstand me, saw filing isn't rocket science and I'm certain you can conquer it. I just don't use handsaws all that much. Joinery and miter boxes are about the only time. So I don't have enough saws to get much practice and all the ones I do have have very fine teeth, 11-16 tpi. On top of that, the miter saws are crosscut so you gotta get that fleam in there too. I'm fairly capable at touching up my tenon and dovetail saws but I gave up on the miter saws. Way too many teeth for my eyes and attention span ;-) It sounds kind of absurd to spend $80-100 between shipping and sharpening on a miter saw you paid half that for. But if you need a gold standard to work towards while your learning, I can't recommend Bob Summerfield enough.


----------



## DLK

> Don, I have an antique one as well. I epoxied a strip of leather to one face and it's improved holding power immensely.
> 
> - HokieKen


*Would you like two more!*

Adding a leather on the face would not of helped. It was the clamp that held the vise to the bench that kept slipping and ruining my sharpening.


----------



## HokieKen

LOL. No thanks Don, I can only butcher one saw at a time ;-) The clamp on mine only opens up about 2" and my benchtop is 3+ thick so I just clamp the saw vise in my bench vise. Works good for me so far.


----------



## garethmontreal

> On top of that, the miter saws are crosscut so you gotta get that fleam in there too. I m fairly capable at touching up my tenon and dovetail saws but I gave up on the miter saws. Way too many teeth for my eyes and attention span ;-) It sounds kind of absurd to spend $80-100 between shipping and sharpening on a miter saw you paid half that for. But if you need a gold standard to work towards while your learning, I can t recommend Bob Summerfield enough.
> 
> - HokieKen


Nothing about that sounds absurd to me at all especially the part about sharpening a full mitre saw that's for sure. Thanks for the recommendation much appreciated I was actually wondering about how to go about getting new teeth cut for some of my saws and now I know seems silly not get at lose some of them sharpened at the same time.










For instance this spear and Jackson ripsaw I got the other day. I found on it Kijij here in Montreal for 50 bucks which unique enough (older British don't come to often on Montreal classifieds). But I met with the guy selling it at around 11 at night and bought it literally out of the back of his van in the street (the meat saw was included with spear and Jackson.


----------



## DLK

> LOL. No thanks Don, I can only butcher one saw at a time ;-) The clamp on mine only opens up about 2" and my benchtop is 3+ thick so I just clamp the saw vise in my bench vise. Works good for me so far.
> 
> - HokieKen


I made a riser that is clamped to the bench and the vise is clamped to the riser. Otherwise my back would be in way more pain.


----------



## Karda

I am real new to saw sharpening, I have found it to be a long tedious process and my attention span is that of a gnat. That being said I found a way. My first saw were junk that i bought for scrapers, the teeth were very worn. so i jointed and made new teeth. I would do some then mark where I stropped and quit and came back later, it took a while but it got done. They worked, not well but they cut good. If you want to learn to sharpen saws keep at it and you will find away. Beside you learn to sharpen saws and you have a skill that few people have any more, it is a dying skill


----------



## bandit571

from 7ppi on down..I can see the teeth as single teeth….from 8ppi on up…they go down the road to Piqua, OH, to Chuck's Sharpening Service….

I do have a saw vise..a Wentworth No. 1…..lagged to a 2×8, which is then clamped into the end vise on my bench…


----------



## garethmontreal

> If you want to learn to sharpen saws keep at it and you will find away. Beside you learn to sharpen saws and you have a skill that few people have any more, it is a dying skill
> 
> - Karda


Thank you kindly for the words of encouragement much appreciated. Some other advice I was given was to start with a rip saw with an averageish tpi and good tooth geometry to get a feel for it then go on to tenon and Dove tails and finally crosscut. A found a bunch of saw maintenance manuals and guides on line dating from 1860 -1940s (some were by manufacturers like disston and spear and Jackson and others by individuals not working for a saw company) I found them really interesting and informative I can post a link if you are interested. 
Over the past few years I've some how managed to acquire a couple of vintage saw vises (one of the kind the clamps onto a a workbench and diston no. 5 which you bolt down). About a half dozen vintage jointers/rakers (disston, Simmonds etc) and a Veritas one. About 8 vintage saw sets by various makers. And a bunch of saw files from Tome Feteira and black diamond. Not to mention a bunch of saws. At this point if I don't/can't learn to sharpen saws I think I need to just walk into the ocean and never return. Cheers and thanks again.


----------



## controlfreak

I tried to sharpen a 7 or a 5 TPI saw and even with a 5X loop it was brutal. I start second guessing if I am on the right angle of a cross cut saw. This reminds me that I need to get a wide sharpie to get more contrast between filed and unfiled teeth. It's rough when you are have trouble just trying to make out the size marking on the damn file before you even get to the saw. When I did a cross cut saw two weeks ago it was noticeably better cutting but I think I will redo to see if I can improve on it. I am eyeing several on ebay to add to what I have. Still haven't attempted to set a saw but I do have the tool and the file holder the evens out the tooth height.


----------



## garethmontreal

Im a bit wary about setting saws because I've used some that are terribly set (as in wayyy to much set). All of the old saw manuals state that by far the biggest mistake people make when setting saws is giving it too much set in both angle and depth. Apparently this leads to not only making the saw cut like garbage but can distort the saw plate and cause teeth to break off in the wood. So far it's only theoritical to me as I have not set any saws but it certainly explains the state of some of the saws I have.


----------



## Karda

garethmontreal glad I could help I started on rip saws and that is much easier, I would appreciate the link old saws and old tool in general are fascinating. I have some vision problems myself, it is aggravating. hang in there.


----------



## DLK

*Teeth cut.* Now fine tuning and adding set. Not perfect, but I tested it and rip cuts very well before and after adding fleam.










*Fleam cut.* Now adding set.










I started with a grobet file, but switched to a Simonds (NOS). The simonds cut so much faster and smoother it made the job go faster. I wish I had started with the Simonds. I think the result would have been better.

I have some new Bahco's and some Tome Feteira arriving today. Both I think will be excellent.
I know the Bahco's will be excellent I look forward to trying the Tome Feteira files. I have a couple am sure they will be also great.

Soon I will be done with this practice saw.


----------



## Karda

garethmontreal glad I could help I started on rip saws and that is much easier, I would appreciate the link old saws and old tool in general are fascinating. I have some vision problems myself, it is aggravating. hang in there.


----------



## garethmontreal

Here's a link to the manuals i found most useful (not just for saws).

https://archive.org/details/fav-gtardkgbhttps://archive.org/details/fav-gtardkgb

And here is a link for

"The International Tool Catalog Library includes manufacturer's and dealer's catalogs, advertisements, and related literature of tools of all trades. The emphasis is on hand tools, portable power tools, and tool-making. It also includes machinery from industries that may not be well-represented on other websites."

Which has over 5000 items and is amazing.

https://archive.org/details/internationaltoolcataloglibrary


----------



## Karda

thanks for the links there is certainly alot there


----------



## rad457

Just finished the 28" 5tpi, cuts clean, smooth and straight? want to put a little set back into the teeth as after getting them all level, set sort of dissappeared Still have a chanced to screw it up! 16 to 20" plates more fun.


----------



## garethmontreal

My pleasure when I get home from work tonight or tomorrow morning I'll put up a direct link to a couple of the best ones .


----------



## donwilwol

I've said it before, bit I hate sharpening saws. I don't know why. every once in a while I decide, "this is crazy" and decide I'm going to sharpen a few. I might get through 1, maybe 2 if I have enough bourbon, but then I hide all the tools and swear to never take them out again.


----------



## DLK

> Im a bit wary about setting saws because I ve used some that are terribly set (as in wayyy to much set). All of the old saw manuals state that by far the biggest mistake people make when setting saws is giving it too much set in both angle and depth. Apparently this leads to not only making the saw cut like garbage but can distort the saw plate and cause teeth to break off in the wood. So far it s only theoritical to me as I have not set any saws but it certainly explains the state of some of the saws I have.
> 
> - garethmontreal


Here is a trick I have read about but not tried. Thus if the saw is set too much this will reduce the set to .002 inches off the sawplate. So one can over set then reduce to a consistent narrower set with just a sheet of paper and a vise.


----------



## Karda

nice trick if you have that size vice


----------



## HokieKen

I've done the same trick using a diamond plate. You put a piece of masking tape over 1/2 tbe stone then let the taped portion ride on the saw plate and the diamond kiss the teeth. Run it heel-to-toe until it's no longer hitting the teeth. This will give you a uniform set the thickness of your tape along the full length.

Credit to Brian Noell for turning me on to that a couple of years ago


----------



## DLK

> nice trick if you have that size vice
> 
> - Karda


I think you could use a smaller *vise*, just "slide" the plate to an adjacent section and squeez, rinse and repeat until plate is done. (Unless you mean the morality of the method. LOL.)


----------



## Karda

ok I fry the smaller vice thanks


----------



## donwilwol

If hand saws are your vise, is frying a vice a ritual to appease the gods?


----------



## Arts_and_Crafts_DIY

Hi there! This really nice saw just made it into my hands, for a fair price.










TAYLOR - LONDON










The handle. There is a polished spot, from the index finger of the OG past owner. Worn one whopping millimetre(!) deep into the wood. The relationship he must have had with this tool moves me, what a weird thing to get sentimental about.










Length is 24" but I wonder if the plate could have been shortened at one point. How does the tip look to you?

Have a nice Saturday,
Carl


----------



## controlfreak

George H. Bishop 8 TPI 26" Rip is heading my way. Just had to have it but I am not sure why.


----------



## DLK

I don't know which is more exhausting making new teeth and sharpening a crosscut or watching the election returns.


----------



## donwilwol

> I don t know which is more exhausting making new teeth and sharpening a crosscut or watching the election returns.
> 
> - Combo Prof


I'd make that about an even tie


----------



## DLK

^LOL, very good!


----------



## HokieKen

I dunno which is more exhausting Don. But I know which is more productive…


----------



## bandit571

One way to use a saw?









Guess this IS real sawdust..









Not too bad…









Tablesaw to make the kerf cuts…









Only an inch or so deep…just enough for the saw to follow…


----------



## garethmontreal

> thanks for the links there is certainly alot there
> 
> - Karda


https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=1ewEtub1vbZswJtJS7V_tIBjkYzoUceTN

Here's a link to 5 of the most interesting (in my opinion) old books on saw maintenance/filing I found. The one by Hodgson titled *hand saws" is particularly interesting.


----------



## garethmontreal

> TAYLOR - LONDON
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Length is 24" but I wonder if the plate could have been shortened at one point. How does the tip look to you?
> 
> Have a nice Saturday,
> Carl
> 
> - Carl Hugenschmidt


Very nice saw congrats. Let me preface my forthcoming comments with the disclaimer that I'm no expert on old saws just an amateur enthusiast. Old British saws like this one came in quite a few sizes. Dealers records from the time show crosscut hand saws often came in sizes of 22, 24, 26 and even 28 inches. Most likely your saw was originally 24 inches the nose is rounded like a lot of early saws and the nib is intact. It's a lot of work to reshape the nose and nib after shortening the plate and I doubt most people did it.
My guess is the saw is quite old given the London pattern handle with only three fasteners (they started using 4 fasteners in most cases faitly early on). Speaking of did it come with handle hardware? They should be split nuts I'm guessing. Also the fact that the markings on the plate are quite sparing just makers name and London and in all capital letters could indicate it's quite old. Im also thinking in this case the London is probably not an indication of where it was made but rather denoting quality. London often refers to 'london spring steel' used on the best quality British saws. When I get home tonight I'll look up Taylor in Simon barely's BSSM and tell you what it says. Once again nice saw congrats.


----------



## garethmontreal

Thanks for the tips regarding dealing overset Kenny and Don k I'll give a go this week cheers. Regarding the vice technique I'm guessing that the vise would flat faces because the grooved ones would cause inconsistencies? Thanks again guys


----------



## Karda

thanks for the links, they will keep me busy for a while, the TS kerf is a good idea for hand ripping I will remember that thanks Mie


----------



## garethmontreal

These arrived at my place a few hours ago. it was an ebay auction listed as three vintage warranted superior saws. I was the sole bidder and got for about 120cdn including shipping. 
I bought them primarily because the saw at the top is not a warranted superior saw. I was pretty positive given the overall look of the saw and the fact the medallion is in the wrong place and that unlike the other fasteners it is not a split nut. I asked someones whose opinion I trust (I'm looking at you Kerry) what they thought he agreed and also told the other two saws were pretty unique as well. Which I greatly appreciated because I don't know jack about non British saws. So I got them and awaited the results of my eBay roulette.
The top saw is from one of the most prominent London saw makers I Hill late and Howell. It's a rip saw about 4 tpi the is 26 1/2" which means it was almost certainly shortened at some point possibly by the previous owner w Roberts who stamped his name in the handle.
The second saw I think is based on the shurly Dietrich maple leaf no. 1649 speed saw But it has no markings besides the warranted superior medallion. And I have no idea how to measure it's tpi. 
The final saw has a British warranted superior medallion and as I discovered after a couple hours and a few razor blades no markings on the plate. Aside from the surface rust they are actually in pretty good shape.


----------



## Karda

That is quite a find does the center saw have a special tooth pattern


----------



## Arts_and_Crafts_DIY

> Speaking of did it come with handle hardware? They should be split nuts I m guessing.


No original hardware onnit whatsoever unfortunately. Holes were damaged too. But maybe someone in the forum has come up with a good solution to that kind of trouble? Two nice surprises though 1. Letter S maybe SO stamped in the top right corner. Will know more, once i've done electrolysis, no invasive methods on this one! 2. There are arched lines, that tell us about the circular saw that was used to slit the handle in the factory. Little ridges on the inside of the handle-slit must have left them where they touched the handle, so it's fun to do a little archeology like that


----------



## garethmontreal

Hey carl I looked up your saw in Simon barleys book "British saws and saw makers since 1660" (the BSSM). 
The mark on your saw is pretty much exactly the same as one attributed to Joseph Taylor registered at 26 thomas street, Oxford Street 1840. The company went bankrupt in 1852 and Moses Eadon as one of the creditors acquired thebright produce saws under the name Taylor. So it looks your saw is from around 1840. Very cool.


----------



## DLK

Where brand os *new files* do you all recommend for sharpening, both triangular and mill bastard?


----------



## DavePolaschek

Don, Mark Harrell at Bad Axe says



> Friederich Dick from Germany (distributed in the US by Bad Axe and in Europe by Dictum), Corradi (distributed in the US by Tools for Working Wood), Vallorbe from Switzerland (distributed in North America by Lee Valley Tools), and Bahco-a Swedish firm making files in Portugal also distributed in North America by Lee Valley Tools.


I've got a set of the Friederich Dick files and a handful of Corradi files, and both are definitely quality. If you email Mark, he can even put together a set of files for you, based on the saws you're looking to sharpen. But he's awfully busy and may take a few days to respond. I'm just starting to figure out how to sharpen, but Mark has been very helpful since the sharpening class I was going to take from him got cancelled due to the virus. I got a refund on my tuition in the form of sharpening supplies.

I pick up Nicholson mill files at the local hardware store, but they are case-hardened and basically disposable. They'll cut fine for a little while, and then I'm back bugging the owner to carry a better brand and helping empty his inventory of the Nicholsons. I figure it's a long-term investment… I'll let you know what we settle on that he can get through his suppliers, but I'm angling for one of the European brands.


----------



## HokieKen

I have a ton of old, partially spent saw files that are Simonds, Nicholson and some others Don. For new saw files, I'd go with Simonds or Bahco. Mostly because they're readily available and I've had good luck with their files in other styles for metal work. For jointing, I prefer a second cut rather than a bastard cut. I'm always afraid the bastard will break teeth.


----------



## DLK

Thanks for the file info.


----------



## garethmontreal

Karda yeah it has a pretty crazy tooth pattern. And the saw plate goes past the back of the handle.




























Somewhat unfortunately the guy who had it before decided to sand the plate in all sorts of directions even circular using a fairly coarse grit. I don't think it'll effect it to much it looks like a beast


----------



## DLK

^ Looks like a lance tooth pattern for a one man logging saw. The mystery is why put it on a hand saw. How does it work on a firewood log?


----------



## Karda

that was my thought a logging saw, maybe the previous owner cut a lot of small pieces of green wood and wanted to make it easy on himself. Thea would be easier than an 8 point


----------



## BlasterStumps

I'd guess it to be a limbing/pruning saw.


----------



## DLK

^ I agree it could be that.


----------



## bandit571

Disston Compact 1874 Tool box saw…


----------



## DLK

Could we see a picture of the whole saw plate? How big is it?


----------



## DLK

Have you had any luck sharpening a used saw file?
Can a rusted or oxidized unused saw file (NOS) be restored?
If so what do you do?


----------



## bandit571

^ soak in vinegar for a little while…be careful …else you won't have a file left….try for an hour…..be sure to clean the stuff off, else it will just keep chewing away the metal…


----------



## Arts_and_Crafts_DIY

the vinegar is a good tip… also makes old rasps cut better


----------



## siemensgeek

Vinegar works but it is an acid. I've cleaned several files and rasps with Metal Rescue and a brass bristled brush. Metal Rescue removes rust but won't touch the base metal.


----------



## bearkatwood

Little off topic but I wondered if anyone could help me in identifying a saw set I recently came into and a little history on it perhaps.


----------



## DLK

It should be found on Saw Set - The Saw Set Collector's Resource but I do not see it there. However, there is an email link you could send an inquiry to.


----------



## bearkatwood

Checked it twice, didn't see it.


----------



## DLK

He writes on the first page.

This is a work in progress and will be updated as new pictures, information and time become available. I will gladly put pictures of any saw set that I do not have up on this site with the owner's name. Please bear with me since I do not do this for a living. Please send e-mails to webmaster.

I don't know how active he is.


----------



## DonBroussard

That's a cool saw set, Brian. I thought you posted a hole punch at first.


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## DLK

*Success.*
Finally after after filling off the teeth 3 times I have figured how to sharpen a crosscut.










This quote from Monty Python and the holy grail captures my journey.

When I first came here, this was all swamp. Everyone said I was daft to build a castle on a swamp, but I built in all the same, just to show them. It sank into the swamp. So I built a second one. That sank into the swamp. So I built a third. That burned down, fell over, then sank into the swamp. But the fourth one stayed up. And that's what you're going to get, Lad, the strongest castle in all of England.


----------



## bandit571

Works…..until you find out the tooth line is of the "breasted" variety…..like a long, gentle curve….or a low hill right in the center…..and…it was made like that, from the start….


----------



## garethmontreal

One asked a little while for a picture of the full plate so here you go it's 15 inches in length.









Luckily enough Michael Merlo just sold one of the these and he is some one who really knows his saws.

He described the one he sold as a shurly Dietrich maple leaf 1649 speed saw. It is designed as basically a one man logging saw for cut wet set stuff up to 12 " which is crazy. I trust him to know what he's talking about.


----------



## DLK

> Works…..until you find out the tooth line is of the "breasted" variety…..like a long, gentle curve….or a low hill right in the center…..and…it was made like that, from the start….
> 
> - bandit571


When I restarted the last time and filed off all the teeth I trued up the plate. I presumed that was correct thing to do. The tooth line had become dished and not hilled.


----------



## rad457

Worked on my 28" 5 tpi for many hours, level, file, level, file, try not to forget how many file strokes Still needs a tad more set i think. Or was that Rake?

Don, how is the new vise working? Was thinking seriously about that Gramercy until the $7000.00 bill for a new furnace appeared


----------



## DLK

^ *Andre* The Gramercy vise is absolutely fantastic!


----------



## kwigly

Brian's saw set might be Henry Ackermann's patent #669297, applied for 27 Nov 1900 (and issued 5 March 1901) https://patents.google.com/patent/US669297/en


----------



## Johnny7

Here's a Shurley-Dietrich "toolbox saw" I sold Merlo some years back-I never checked to see how it turned out or what it fetched at auction.


----------



## Karda

that is a nice saw, what is the piece of metal by the top horn


----------



## Johnny7

> that is a nice saw, what is the piece of metal by the top horn
> 
> - Karda


That is the same piece of steel which includes the blade. The "handle" is let-in to the plate. Hope I explained that clearly.


----------



## Karda

so is it reinforcement for the handle


----------



## Sawron

Guessing the handle for that one has a slot back through the upper horn/lower horn and all the way through the wood in front of the tote so the bare blade ends in a sort of U shape with the extended upper and lower sections back towards your hand?

It's an interesting idea, I can see why if it's meant to be used on hacking up green wood by yourself which seems plausible just looking at the raker teeth mixed in there, having the blade catch and torque to one side or the other enough to fracture one of the cheeks around a bolt would suck.

Having more steel extending all the way back above/below the tote seems like it might distribute any such forces across a large enough chunk of material/the additional bolts to cut back on that sort of handle failure. I'd expect any sort of breaks like that to be rare outside of just completely improperly using a saw, as long as you had a saw horse or vises to work against it would be harder to see happening.

Having a hung log start to sag or twist mid-thrust badly enough to kink the blade or crack a cheek though, I'd be worried about that happening if I was regularly hacking up green logs by myself.


----------



## bandit571

On the Disstonian Institute site, if you look up the Model 1874 Toolbox saw….it will show Disston's version of the saw…and how they cut the saw plate….same handle pattern, BTW…...

Apparently Disston actually made that saw two different times…..neither time selling very many….


----------



## kwigly

Dietrich patented his saw design in 1912, with the added reinforcing "pins" added in a 1922 patent.
Initially they were sold as regular carpenter's saws, but Shurly-Dietrich found an additional (bigger) market with the pruning saw version.
There seem to be quite a few around here in Ontario, cheap.


----------



## Sawron

Interesting bit of experimentation there, though I can see a reason for the Dietrich one while Disston's was an idea that probably seemed better in his head than in practice, the extra teeth under the handle aren't much good, and any potential reinforcement is limited because the upper section is clipped so far forwards while the lower section is barely let into the handle at all.

http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/1874page.html

Heck, the lower bolt is just sitting in a notch rather than a proper hole.


----------



## garethmontreal

I just reread my post on the saw photo i made a mistake it's not 15 inches it's 25 inches


----------



## bearkatwood

Finally figured out the origins of that setter.





































It appears they altered the hammer head portion post the patent, but the rest seems to match up well.
Mr. Conley from the saw set collectors resource said he had not seen one like it before, so that's kind of fun.


----------



## siemensgeek

If saws could talk this one could tell a tale.














































I was working in Pryor, OK last week and got an afternoon off. Time off is a bad thing for an old tool addict and I immediately started visiting antique stores. I found this straight rip saw for $7 and since I have been looking for a rip saw I bought it. It has an Atkins label screw but a Disston etch on the plate, the handle has been replaced by a crude copy, the label screw is on the wrong side, and the saw nuts have been replaced with machine screws, washers and square nuts. 
After cleaning the plate a little I found out it is a D-17 with 3 Ds also etched on the plate. According to the Disstonian Institute the 3 Ds date it to prior to 1928. A D-17 is a Double Duty saw with a strange repeating pattern of 2 rip teeth and 5 crosscut teeth separated by a deep gullet. This saw has been re-sharpened as a straight rip saw with 5 1/2 ppi.



















I plan to make a D-8 handle, sharpen the teeth and replace the saw screws and label screw with appropriate parts.


----------



## DLK

They don't talk … they sing!


----------



## Karda

got a problem, I found this cute little saw ( 14" 10ppi ) that just had to come home with me. Problem is one of the saw bolts spins when I try to loosen it any ideas how I can get this loose


----------



## DLK

Get a Wooden Handscrew Clamp. Drill a 3/4 inch hole through one of the jaws. Now you can clamp the nut tight and have a hole to turn the screw. Sometimes I tape a washer over the non slotted end of the saw bolt befor clamping so that I am sure to clamp it tight. (You can get Wooden Handscrew Clamps cheap from harbour freight.)


----------



## Karda

thanks I try that


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## Karda

this is the medallion from the above saw, haven't found the etch yet just the word works


----------



## garethmontreal

Hi I got this saw a little while ago. And was wondering if anyone mite be to able to point me in the direction of who made it? I'm guessing it's a Butchers saw. And the at the back the increases and decreases the tension if that's important. The only marking on it is a sloppy stamp for notre dame brothers supply company it's almost a hardware saw factored by a company as second or third saw. The blade is 24 " and the saw is really heavy. think the tpi on mine is around 10 the blade is I don't how to describe it as anything other than odd at both ends. I guess it look that from sharpening man it would be a lot of sharpening

Cheers


----------



## bandit571

Sometimes called a Butcher's Meat Saw….


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## garethmontreal

Hi there I thought id share some pictures of my favorite saw. My wife got it for me as a surprise a couple weeks and it's by far the best saw I've ever used. It's so good that if you don't pay to close attention when I use it I can pass for not totally useless around the shop. It's an early 1870s london spring disston no 12 which at the time was disstons top model. The wheat pattern carved into was down by hand this time still. On the back of the handle you can see where the man who originally used it out his while working. He was a master jointer by the name of Robert Ruddel. And etched name and title lightly at the top of the plate on the back side. this one sings like no other saw I have. My wife saved up for a year to get and bought it from Michael Merlo and incredible.



























All right enough of my bragging about what other people did for me here are some pictures.


----------



## garethmontreal




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## Karda

That is a wonderful saw, and how thoughtful of your wife


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## garethmontreal

Thanks karda im not sure what I've done to deserve either but I'll im not going to pull at those threads to much  in all seriousness though I'm very luck to have met for more reasons than I can count.


----------



## Karda

I hear ya


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## bearkatwood

You have a dang nice saw there.


----------



## siemensgeek

I must have misread the post… I think I read that your wife bought you a saw! You better hang on to her. Nice saw by the way.


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## siemensgeek

My wife didn't buy me this saw. While down in the Houston area on a job the power plant I was there to assist with their startup wasn't as ready as they thought so I had 4 days just hanging around the hotel. Of course I hit some antique stores.

Can anyone help me identify this saw that forced me to buy it? The plate is 18" long, I can't see any trace of an etch, there is no label screw. It looks like it may have had a nib at one time. The handle is very nicely rounded and feels great. It seems like I saw a picture one time of a Disston Junior saw but searching the internet hasn't produced anything. Disston offered an 18" panel saw version of nearly every model they made but I haven't found any pictures of a Disston saw with a handle shaped like this and they all have label screws. I found a reference to an "All American Boy" saw made by Disston but the picture was nothing like this saw.


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## garethmontreal

Any chance we could see the other side. 2 fasteners is very rare for non backsaws especially. Ive seen some early back saws with two fasteners but they were split nut.


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## siemensgeek

Here is the other side.


----------



## garethmontreal

Thanks for the photo but unfortunately im stumped i dont recognize it at all. Neat saw though 18" can be quite handy sometimes for sure. Good luck on your hunt.

Ps there is a saw collecter group on face book (i know face book it makes me shudder to) full of very informative, knowledgable and friendly people they could probably place it for u.


----------



## siemensgeek

Thanks for looking I don't have a presence on face book and really don't want one. I agree with you two screws is unusual. Even brands other than Disston seem to have at least 3 unless it's a backsaw.


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## garethmontreal

> Thanks for looking I don t have a presence on face book and really don t want one. I agree with you two screws is unusual. Even brands other than Disston seem to have at least 3 unless it s a backsaw.
> 
> - siemensgeek


Trust me I hear you about trust me. I use Facebook for 2 tool groups and anything I put on there can't be seen by anyone not in the group. Not interested In the slightest on that wider rabbit hole of garbage. If you I can post a picture of for you see what the say I won't mention you obviously and that you don't have to deal with Facebook directly no reason both of us have suffer


----------



## siemensgeek

That's fine with me. Let me know if they come up with anything. Thanks


----------



## Karda

I agree with the FB thing, I am in some groups But beyond that I hardly ever use it, I cruse the market place some times. The main FB I stay away from that


----------



## siemensgeek

The corporation I work for has there own internal social media platform. I'm so social media phobic that I don't even get on the internal system.


----------



## siemensgeek

I found this on ebay

https://www.ebay.com/i/293036694420?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-213727-13078-0&mkcid=2&itemid=293036694420&targetid=4580840328168110&device=c&mktype=&googleloc=&poi=&campaignid=403206327&mkgroupid=1235851284533770&rlsatarget=pla-4580840328168110&abcId=9300372&merchantid=51291&msclkid=041df498eacc174aa988ab5194708b4e

It's a 12" CE Jennings. It's smaller and looks newer than my saw but it has a similar handle and 2 screws.


----------



## JamesWPA

Hi Lumberjocks, long time lurker here - wanted to post my first good experience with saw sharpening. I acquired a no-name rusty saw at a garage sale - had a nib and one split nut, but likely re-handled. The teeth were horrible and the tooth line was snaky - bellied almost 1/4". It was filed 6 ppi crosscut, but I went with 6 ppi rip. After several jointings and filings, I confirm that a correctly sized sharp file is the only way to go. Amazingly, it saws quickly and straight.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Congrats, James!


----------



## matt_50

I have searched this site a long time and I thought some of you may be able to help me with ideas on how to fold a saw back. I currently cannot find any for sale. Florip Toolworks and TGIAG are not currently selling any. I did reach out to Blackburn Tools for a couple of slotted ones but I still want to fold some. My rough idea is to bend a .093 260 brass strip in a shop press. Make or buy a recommended acute die and then press flat. I know there are different ways to do this though, some may be easier than others. You input and advice would be a great starting point. Matt


----------



## G5Flyr

JamesWPA: I'm chiming in a little late but your before and after pics speak volumes. Nicely done.


----------



## garethmontreal

Let preface thisby making i am in no affiliated with this i just found about 10 minutes and i live in montreal a different country. 
If anyone is in the north Carolina area you mite wanna check out this estate sale. Theres an entire sae collection up for auction at 2 dozen saws theres pictures on the website

https://www.estatesales.net/NC/Valdese/28690/2746371/93423904


----------



## theoldfart

After all the turning saw goings on I felt I had to fix one of mine.










The cross piece had begun to crack and being a beautiful vintage tool I stoped using it. With a replacement I can go back to using it. I still need to shape it but the tenons fit perfectly under load.


----------



## DavePolaschek

Nice, Kevin! Glad to see the old tool getting new life, and it looks like once you get a little patina on it, the new cross piece will look as good as the old.


----------



## theoldfart

I finished shaping the cross piece and put a coat of stain on it. Cleaned the blade up a bit.










Next up a coat of black Briwax and then sharpen the blade.


----------



## Sawron

Kiiiiitttttyyyyyyy


----------



## theoldfart

That is Kona the shop supervisor.


----------



## G5Flyr

I'm a long time consumer and not much of a contributor so I thought I'd post some pictures of what I have:



















These are the only ones that are worth talking about. I can provide info and descriptions if anyone is interested


----------



## theoldfart

Really nice panel saw, 2nd from the bottom right from rest pic. Also top left same pic, skew back rip. Rosewood handle?


----------



## G5Flyr

I'm not sure about the brand on the panel saw. Medallion says, "Warranted Superior." There is no etching on the plate that I can see. It is an 8 pt. filed rip. The nib is still intact. The big skew back rip is a 5-1/2 pt Disston. I have no idea what the model number might be.

The other large hand saw is a Disston 8 pt. crosscut. I bought it from Ed Lebetkin's tool store above the Woodwright's School in Pittsboro, NC. Ed had already sharpened and set it when I bought it. It cuts great. I love it. Actually I love them all.

With the exception of the saw I bought from Ed they've all come from flea markets and such.


----------



## Sawron

> That is Kona the shop supervisor.
> 
> - theoldfart


I've noticed kitties love saws and chisels, I attribute it to them being glad to see US having claws of some sort finally.

Reggie used to sit and watch me saw and purr happily.

Our dog Larry also gets fascinated when he sees me sawing or filing or chiseling or planing stuff, big goofball.

Also agree that the second from bottom on the right is very cute, nice wood too.


----------



## G5Flyr

Thanks Max. That saw is a real sweetheart to use. At 8 ppi (rip) it can make a very fine cut when you need it. It earns its keep when you make that final cut on a Roubo bookstand. On his TV show Roy Underhill does it with a big ole 26 incher. Probably a lot of clean up after that bad boy.

Kevin - I went down to the shop and took a look at the handles. I don't think any of them are rose wood. I've got a panel gauge that looks like its made out of rose wood. I hardly ever use it but it's a beauty.


----------



## theoldfart

The turning saws are done and going back on the wall.


----------



## DavePolaschek

They look good as old, Kevin!


----------



## theoldfart

Thanks Dave, one still needs sharpening. The fine tooth one is just too small a tooth to sharpen.


----------



## DavePolaschek

How long are the blades? The 12" ones from Gramercy Tools aren't very expensive. They come in 3 different TPIs and I treat them as consumables… when they're dull, they get tossed, just like coping saw blades.


----------



## theoldfart

Thai are the ones I use Dave. I knock out the pin and they work just fine.


----------



## Karda

Hi, I finally got a saw I walked away from the end of Nov. I don't do large back saw so I walked away then realized I shouldn't have. figured on going back in a couple days and wife tested pos for covid just got back today. This is a Langdon mitre box co. Worchester MA that is stamped in the back, no etch, medallion is Warranted Superior, split nuts. The handle has a crack and is missing one bolt. I might resell this what should I do to the handle since I can't remove it. What else can you tell about this saw thanks Mike


----------



## theoldfart

Mike, can you get a better picture of the Langdon and Worcester stamp?


----------



## HokieKen

What's the length and the height under the spine on that saw Mike? I thought Langdon was in Millers Falls even before they were purchased by Millers Falls. Never seen one with a Worcester stamp.


----------



## theoldfart

Kenny, Langdon moved to Miller's Falls in 1875.


----------



## Karda

sorry I can't get a clear picture of the stamp the letters are filled with black stuff, I used a little vinegar and cleaned it up but not enough the to read, the Langdon miter box is clear but the rest is fuzzy even under magnification. any Ideas on cleaning the stamp up without ruining its value. 
Ken the plate is 22" long with 3.75 under the back counted 11 PPI


----------



## theoldfart

Good chance the stamp reads Northampton, MA. The Northampton Langdons used split nuts. After the move to Miller's Falls they used up the old stock before they made new ones with the newer style screws.


----------



## Karda

that is a possibility, here is the best pic I can get


----------



## theoldfart

Yep, it is a Northampton.

We lived a couple of miles from the Northampton Shoe Peg Company where Langdon made his mitre boxes.


----------



## Karda

ok thats good to know


----------



## Brit

Beautiful work going on here chaps. Carry on.


----------



## kwigly

I like numbers. I like them to be right / make sense. I might count the teeth on my saws to see if the actual ppi matches the stamp on the blade's heel if the stamped number looks wrong. In the blurb below my name it says kwigly has previously posted 123 times in 2526 days, which feels about right without checking. But some people have more posts than days, sometimes averaging almost 4 post per day, which appears to mean an average of almost 4 posts per day for every day of the year for years and years. Is that right ?? Would a high rate Poster care to make (several) comments ?


----------



## theoldfart

Just one kwigly, take the flame post down to the coffee lounge where it belongs.


----------



## HokieKen

Do you think there's a prize or something for a high post count Kwigly? I just did the math and I average 7.5 posts per day. Know what? Not a single one has been made for the purpose of increasing my count. When I look at folks that post less than once per week, I don't shun them as lurkers who do little to contribute.


----------



## Mosquito

Forums are only as good as their participation, and in order to have participation there have to be posts. I don't really care, a lot of posts, hardly any posts, it's the content of the posts that matters.


----------



## rad457

WHAT no Prize? Well the only one's I tend to Shun/Ignore are the ones with a lot of expert advice and no Projects


----------



## bandit571

Been here for 10 years…of course I'd have a boatload of posts…..
Back to..









Saw that came home with me over the past weekend…









When one finds a SHARP saw that looks this good…for just $15…..









And the handle even feels comfy to the hand…..it might just come home with me…..it can replace the 2 DULL saws , while I send them out to be sharpened back up.

Until they return…this fellow is residing in my Stanley No. 2246 mitre box….


----------



## Karda

kwigly numbers aren't everything if you don't understand what is happening here take go elsewhere. i am a semi lurker and post little because i don't have the standing to discuss the subject, what i see here shootin the ******************** over a beer about saws and enjoying each others company is a bunch of guys. Minus the beer and the table to sit across. You don't find that in kind of camaraderie in numbers. Go enjoy your number some place else or stay if you wish to contribute


----------



## controlfreak

For the active posters the post count is like birthdays, A newer active member is never going to catch up and that's okay. The only time post count matters is when I see suspicious links and the poster's count is 5 posts in one day, not going there.


----------



## Mosquito

> For the active posters the post count is like birthdays, A newer active member is never going to catch up and that s okay. The only time post count matters is when I see suspicious links and the poster s count is 5 posts in one day, not going there.
> 
> - controlfreak


LOL the irony is that a 6-day old 5-post count SPAM post showed up right after your post :-D


----------



## KentInOttawa

> For the active posters the post count is like birthdays, A newer active member is never going to catch up and that s okay. The only time post count matters is when I see suspicious links and the poster s count is 5 posts in one day, not going there.
> 
> - controlfreak
> 
> LOL the irony is that a 6-day old 5-post count SPAM post showed up right after your post :-D
> 
> - Mosquito


Yup, right on cue. The spam for t-shirts has been flagged.


----------



## kwigly

My apologies. It was idle wondering expressed late in the day (which is no excuse) and there was no intent to criticize anyone. I apologize for any inadvertent offense caused


----------



## HokieKen

Thanks for saying so kwigly  No worries. I took it as just an observation until the last part about making "several" remarks. We're all good!


----------



## theoldfart

Appreciate the sentiment kwigly.


----------



## Karda

what they said


----------



## theoldfart

Still doing things the hard way










Finished up with a Groves and Sons big rip










They match!










These are side pieces that form the roof for an 1890's railroad car. I still need to make the end piece that connects these two.


----------



## HokieKen

That's good work Kev. Hard work but good work


----------



## donwilwol

Way to stay young…....or die trying!!!

;-)


----------



## theoldfart

I'll take stay young for two hundred dollars Don!


----------



## DavePolaschek

Nice job, Kevin. But yeah, that's real work. Whew!


----------



## CL810

I'm sure your fellow volunteers appreciate your Kung fu skills Kevin. Master skills on display!


----------



## theoldfart

Thanks boys. I may have to make a smaller version for bench work.


----------



## Sawron

I dig the proportions on saws like that Groves with the swoopy little lambs tongue, it's weird how I always kinda knew like dovetail saws were pretty tools but didn't realize how much workmanship went into other saws and how nice they could look too.


----------



## Karda

when you make a handle for a saw is when you really appreciate the craftsmanship in old saw handles


----------



## theoldfart

That Groves is one of the best looking saws I have.


----------



## seeds444

Hey all. I'm doing my first conversion from gentleman's saw to a dovetail saw. It's interesting how just writing out the question gives the answer. Drill the handle first, and mark the blade after, correct?


----------



## HokieKen

That's how I'd do it seeds.


----------



## Mosquito

That's how I make mine as well


----------



## seeds444

Hey all. I'm doing my first conversion from gentleman's saw to a dovetail saw. It's interesting how just writing out the question gives the answer. Drill the handle first, and mark the blade after, correct?

Thanks


----------



## HokieKen

Hmmm. I don't know whether to answer again or not…

;-p


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

> That's how I'd do it seeds.
> 
> - HokieKen





> That's how I make mine as well
> 
> - Mosquito


----------



## Lazyman

The echo in this forum is pretty bad, bad, bad, bad.


----------



## KentInOttawa

I have a 20" Shurly & Dietrich panel saw that needs some lovin'. There's a small side-to-side bend about half-way down the blade that's just barely visible in these pictures.



















When I lay (or clamp) the blade to a flat surface, there appears to be a bump in the top-edge of the blade. It's almost like the metal has been stretched there.










Has anyone else encountered something like this before and how can it be fixed and/or saved?


----------



## Mosquito

this is basically what I follow:

http://woodcentral.com/articles/handtools/articles_866.shtml

Just be mindful of where the teeth are when you're bending it each direction, should it happen to slip and come out of your hands…


----------



## Karda

i inherited a saw that had a bad tip. about 6" inches back from the tip there was damage that looked like somebody hilt the tooth line of the saw with something larger hard and round. This caused the metal to stretch sideways, the saw was kinda useless any way some I punched the bulge back using a hammer and a hard wood dowel. I couldn't remove all of the damage but I can cut a full stroke. Another way would be what you have in the picture, but put 2 clamps on the bend an leave it for a while and see if that will flatten it then if there is still some bend bend it in the opposite direction. Just some ideas good luck


----------



## HokieKen

Great article Mos. Totally new to me.


----------



## KentInOttawa

Thanks for that link, Mos. With my TBI, it's going to be a while before I can take that information in completely. The good news is that I now know that I can put the saw away in a safe place and when I do feel that I understand this process better the saw will be ready and waiting.


----------



## HokieKen

Basically, it just says whack it with a hammer until it's straight Kent ;-)


----------



## Mosquito

that is the 10,000 foot view, yes :-D


----------



## KentInOttawa

> Basically, it just says whack it with a hammer until it s straight Kent ;-)
> 
> - HokieKen


Yes, but that's right up there with the jokes about a plumber/mechanic/whatever charging $$$ for knowing which yyy to twist/whack/replace etc.

Edit: It's going to take me a while to figure out where to whack it and be comfortable enough to believe that I'm right.


----------



## Mosquito

This is the one I'm currently working on. First part of the finish on, a coat of Danish oil applied with 400 grit sandpaper. I might do a second coat, or maybe a coat of shellac instead. Don't want a thick film finish, so if I did shellac, I'd probably apply it with sandpaper or scotch bright pad as well. I like to get a little protection but keep as much of a raw wood feel as I can










Still have to finish cleaning/polishing up the saw plate, and do the final sharpening. I filed the hardware flush, and cleaned those up before applying the tote finish, so it's getting closer


----------



## HokieKen

Nice looking BEM Mos! That for your miter box saw?


----------



## Mosquito

Not yet, the parts for that one are still wrapped up and sitting on my shop desk… this is (finally) the crosscut counterpart to the rip panel saw I made a number of years ago (You know, one of those like 3 blog posts I re-posted up on my website lol)


----------



## Brit

I came all the way to this thread to ask Mos what fruit paper was. Thought I'd been missing out but I see he cunningly corrected it after posting.

" ...First part of the finish on, a coat of Danish oil applied with 400 fruit sandpaper… "


----------



## Brit

Great job on the saw Mos. Looks the business!


----------



## Mosquito

lol Andy it's the South Korean translation for "grit" :-D (Samsung phone auto completed it)

Thanks Andy, I'm looking forward to getting this crosscut finished up and into service alongside that rip. I've had this saw plate for probably 5 or 6 years now, and finally getting it finished up. Working on wrapping up some loose ends in the shop. Try to finish out some of those partial projects, and get everything cleaned up, put away, and get the shop fresh again


----------



## theoldfart

A foursome of classic saws.










Top left, Beardshaw, bottom left, Groves, top right Groves and bottom left Biggins


----------



## Brit

A calendar worthy photo if ever I saw one Kev.


----------



## HokieKen

Sweet stuff Kev.

And if I could pick my last name, I now think it would be Biggins. "Kenny Biggins" has a melodious ring doesn't it?


----------



## bandit571

Set up the Geo. H. Bishop No. 10 for a little saw work..









So I won't cut too far down..









Have a lot of cuts to make, after all..









Hand cut Finger joints…..


----------



## Brit

Very nice Bandit. Hope you're keeping well.


----------



## bandit571

Could only work about one hour, today….then had to stop….back is too sore from all the laying around over the past weekend….


----------



## theoldfart

Bandit, that is a neat way of doing box joints, great idea.


----------



## theoldfart

Kenny Biggins sounds like Kenny Loggins, channeling rock stars now? 

Andy, funny how they are all from your side of the pond.

Also, shameless plug, all the restoration work of Bob Summerfield.


----------



## DavePolaschek

> Kenny Biggins sounds like Kenny Loggins, channeling rock stars now?


Talk about your Danger Zone!


----------



## DLK

I am interested in obtaining a sharpening-able folding saw for use with greenwood spoon carving and bushcraft. (Pruning saw?) Do you have a source or a recommendation?

Is there a strong recommendation for a different type of saw… even if non-sharpenable?


----------



## Lazyman

How small do you want the saw to be when folded?


----------



## DLK

16 inches would be fine, 12 inches might be better.


----------



## HokieKen

That's what she said.

Sorry. Had to be done…


----------



## DavePolaschek

Don, the Silky Big Boy is my preferred pruning saw, but it has induction-hardened teeth, so it cannot be resharpened. But it folds, and works very well. I generally have it riding around in the back of my truck in case I happen to come across some interesting wood. It's maybe a hair over 16 inches when folded, with a 14 inch blade, and bright orange so it's difficult to lose.


----------



## Lazyman

I don't know about this particular one but I like the non-sharpen sort of Japanese style saws for green work and I like the size of it for portability. I actually keep a gardening multi-tool similar to these that has a smaller (3"?) similar type blade in my whittling go-bag that I take on road trips. I've used it to prep even dry spruce from a firewood pile and having a pruning shear and large blades for light riving can come in handy.


----------



## seeds444

> Hmmm. I don t know whether to answer again or not…
> 
> ;-p
> 
> - HokieKen


I'm learning the ropes. That's what it gave me so that's what I went with.


----------



## HokieKen

I have a big steel framed bow saw I got at a yard sale years ago that I use for pruning when it's not worth getting a chainsaw out.

I also carry one of these in my hunting pack for clearing shooting lanes. It cuts well, is very convenient and is cheap. On the other hand, it's not sharpenable and it's probably too small unless space and weight are primary considerations.


----------



## DLK

*David*, I have been looking at this silky and I may still buy it, but this Disston 290-SS came up for sale and looked interesting. So silly me I bought it and will see if I like it. Can't hurt to have another "vintage" saw around. I have another saw with induction-hardened teeth that I use for pruning .

*Nathan*, Interesting idea that multi-tool. And indeed what I doing is putting together a traveling/hiking whittling/spoon carving/sloyd kit.

*Kenny*, that gerber saw is tempting.


----------



## DavePolaschek

Can't argue with that, Don. And if that smaller Silky is as well built as the Big Boy, it would be a good buy.


----------



## DLK

> Can't argue with that, Don. And if that smaller Silky is as well built as the Big Boy, it would be a good buy.
> 
> - Dave Polaschek


Oops I bought it too. He he he.


----------



## Brit

Can't go wrong with a Silky Big Boy.

Andy sits back and waits for a witty comment from Kenny. LOL.


----------



## HokieKen

> Can t go wrong with a Silky Big Boy.
> 
> Andy sits back and waits for a witty comment from Kenny. LOL.
> 
> - Brit





> That's what she said.
> 
> Sorry. Had to be done…
> 
> - HokieKen


You'll have to wait a lot longer for witty Andy. I'll recycle that one to hold you over though.


----------



## donwilwol

> I have a big steel framed bow saw I got at a yard sale years ago that I use for pruning when it's not worth getting a chainsaw out.
> 
> I also carry one of these in my hunting pack for clearing shooting lanes. It cuts well, is very convenient and is cheap. On the other hand, it's not sharpenable and it's probably too small unless space and weight are primary considerations.
> 
> - HokieKen


I've had 2 or 3 different saws like these in my Amazon cart over and over, just never pulled the trigger. When I'm hunting I'm not just looking for game. It's also a nice spoon, a new longbow,or maybe even a Xmas tree. (Note the multiple hobbies thing) So which one is small enough to carry in a backpack but still cut a 3" hickory tree.


----------



## donwilwol

> I have a big steel framed bow saw I got at a yard sale years ago that I use for pruning when it's not worth getting a chainsaw out.
> 
> I also carry one of these in my hunting pack for clearing shooting lanes. It cuts well, is very convenient and is cheap. On the other hand, it's not sharpenable and it's probably too small unless space and weight are primary considerations.
> 
> - HokieKen


I've had 2 or 3 different saws like these in my Amazon cart over and over, just never pulled the trigger. When I'm hunting I'm not just looking for game. It's also a nice spoon, a new longbow,or maybe even a Xmas tree. (Note the multiple hobbies thing) So which one is small enough to carry in a backpack but still cut a 3" hickory tree.


----------



## HokieKen

I dunno Don. That's only a 7" blade. That's a lot of strokes to take a 3" tree. Have you thought about one of those manual chain saws? I've never used one but it might be better for bow blanks.


----------



## Lazyman




----------



## CL810

Hmmmmmmmm…....

Flagged


----------



## Mosquito

I think I've decided on just the Danish oil for now. Second coat and it is silky smooth. Still needs to be set and sharpened, but getting there


----------



## KentInOttawa

That handle and that saw sure look pretty to me, Mos. I can only imagine your anticipation to get to use it.


----------



## Mosquito

Yes indeed, I have been waiting for this saw for a while lol


----------



## Lazyman

Beautiful handle Mos.

BTW, If you have never used Tried and True Varnish oil, it is my favorite finish for tool handles. It is basically a BLO with varnish. It has just enough of a resin based varnish to give a little bit of protection but still retains the natural feel of the wood. It is also easy to renew should you ever need to. It's not exactly cheap except that it goes a long way and has a long shelf life. My current quart can, which I use more than any other finish, is nearly empty, at least 5 years old and still usable.


----------



## HokieKen

Awesome Mos!


----------



## bandit571

I seem to recall something about Disston making a copy (their version?) of my Geo. H. Bishop No. 10 saw..









Something about using a bolt out on the toe end of that bar? Haven't found any model number, though…..


----------



## Mosquito

Thanks Kenny and Nathan.

I want to try T&T oil sometime, just haven't picked up a can yet. Danish oil has been my go-to mainly because it's easy, and I can just grab it at the local store lol


----------



## Lazyman

I haven't tried the T&T original which has wax in it I think. I think that I got my varnish oil from Woodcraft but you can get it from Amazon, if that is not an option.


----------



## Mosquito

I'd get it from Rockler, as it's closer to me than Woodcraft (plus I just prefer it, for some reason). I could make the Rockler on my way home from work pretty easily, back when going to work was a thing lol


----------



## DavePolaschek

> I d get it from Rockler, as it s closer to me than Woodcraft (plus I just prefer it, for some reason).


The Woodcraft in Bloomington always left kind of a bad taste in my mouth. Nothing *wrong* per se, but something just a little *off*.

Mail order, I much prefer Woodcraft to Rockler. Again, no real reason I can point to, just a little unease.


----------



## bandit571

90 miles to a Woodcraft…..have no idea where a Rockler is…..Not firmilar enough with the Dayton,OH area, either.


----------



## KentInOttawa

Tried & True is also available through Lee Valley. A litre can will get you into free shipping.


----------



## Mosquito

I agree Dave, just something about the Rockler's I prefer to go into. Even when I lived in Bloomington, 3 miles from the Woodcraft, I still found myself going to the Burnsville Rockler instead lol


----------



## Mosquito

Got it shaped up, set, and then sharpened before a test run. Cut pretty well, good amount of set, but pulled right just a hair (1/32" over a 2.5" cut uncorrected). Quick pull over the extra fine sharpening stone on that side, and it's cutting fantastically now.










Also leaving a satisfactorily clean cut too, for a panel saw in my til










And now the rip has a companion at long last


----------



## DavePolaschek

Schweet, Mos! Well done!


----------



## donwilwol

Excellent job Mos. They look fantastic!


----------



## theoldfart

Mos is a saw doctor now!

Nice.


----------



## Karda

nice set


----------



## bearkatwood

Beautiful. Birdseye can be a pain to work with.


----------



## DLK

I think it depends on the Woodcraft store. The Woodcraft in Milwaukee was horrible, but the one in Grand rapids is very nice. The two closest Rockwell's closest to me are both a 2hr 13 min drive, so unlikely I will visit them unless I'm in the neighboorhood.


----------



## WillliamMSP

> I d get it from Rockler, as it s closer to me than Woodcraft (plus I just prefer it, for some reason).
> 
> - Mosquito





> The Woodcraft in Bloomington always left kind of a bad taste in my mouth. Nothing *wrong* per se, but something just a little *off*.
> 
> - Dave Polaschek


It's like walking in to 1987, minus a Homer Hanky. Rockler is a little more modern. I do appreciate that Woodcraft carries some Veritas products, Whiteside bits, etc, though. Oh, and in a pinch, I'd take the Wood River plane over a Bench Dog (ugh) any day.

Beautiful saws, Mos!


----------



## bandit571

How many saws can you find in this group?









Not counting the Mitre boxes….


----------



## Mosquito

Thanks guys, feels good to finally get this one done lol Now on to the next one (saw for my 15-1/2 miterbox). I agree with you Brian, I think the birdseye made things a little trickier… I tried to keep as few birsdeye's at the very edge as I could, so I wouldn't end up cutting too many of them in half



> It s like walking in to 1987, minus a Homer Hanky. Rockler is a little more modern. I do appreciate that Woodcraft carries some Veritas products, Whiteside bits, etc, though. Oh, and in a pinch, I d take the Wood River plane over a Bench Dog (ugh) any day.
> 
> Beautiful saws, Mos!
> 
> - WillliamMSP


Bill! How are you doing? Haven't heard from you in a while. I would agree with you, that I'm thankful that we have both, as they have different strengths (I'd rather take a class at the Woodcraft, they have a better space for it)


----------



## KentInOttawa

> nice set
> 
> - Karda


I see what you did there. ;-)


----------



## CL810

Beautiful saws Mos! They're going to be around a long time.


----------



## Karda

what did I do


----------



## KentInOttawa

> what did I do
> 
> - Karda


Mos was telling us how he adjusted the set to correct the cut. You said



> nice set


----------



## Karda

oh


----------



## Brit

Bandit - I count 19 saws.


----------



## Brit

Just seen the "not counting the mitre boxes" comment. In that case 17 saws.


----------



## bandit571

With 7 Carpenters in the crew. Not sure if the Lead Carpenter had any in his tool chest, though.


----------



## HokieKen

Those saws are drop dead sexy Mos! I like the contrasting handles too. I'm a big fan of BEM but it can be a real ahole to work with.

Bandit, Andy's eyes are way better than mine. Plus it's too cold to take my shoes off so I couldn't count past 10 even if I could see them ;-)


----------



## Brit

I searched for another copy of the photo to count the saw as it isn't too clear in this thread.


----------



## bandit571

Photo is from the U.S. Forestry Service.


----------



## Mosquito

Thanks for the kind words on the saws gents, much appreciated.

Kenny, the contrasting handles was always the plan when I made the first panel saw however many years ago. I wanted to keep making saws until I had a til of saws of my own making. After that one, I was going to have the rip saws be Sapele, and the crosscuts be something else (I guess maple lol). Except, I screwed that up when my rip panel saw was sapele, and my dovetail saw was curly maple lol Maybe the dovetail saw doesn't count…


----------



## DLK

How do you select a cant saw file for a pruning saw? I mean do I buy a 6" or 8" or does it matter? Does it go by tpi? Should I buy new or vintage?


----------



## HokieKen

Was "cant" a typo or is that a type of file Don? For regular saws, I just pick a file that fits so the top of the teeth hit just below half way up the tooth so I can use it on both sides before it's spent.


----------



## DLK

No *cant *was not a typo. This is a cantsaw file (or cant saw file): 









Teeth on pruning saws (and other lumber saws) have an angle less than 60 degrees and much deeper gullets.










(Sometimes I see cantsaw written as one word sometimes I see it as two.)


----------



## KentInOttawa

Don K - Lee Valley sells 3" & 4" Japanese Saw Feather-Edge Files (with & without safe edges). The description also mentions that they are for pruning saws. They look similar enough to me. PLMK if you do try them.


----------



## DLK

Kent - Highland sells an" 8 cant saw file for only $8. I have been burned on buying new tapper saw files befor (Fierra, new nickleson, etc.) so I am trying to be careful. You can buy NOS vintage simonds files at about 12$ each but I don't need a box of 12 (or 6). Anyway I am trying to sort out what to do. Probably a new file will do. It won't be used very often.


----------



## DavePolaschek

Highland has had problems shipping things in a timely manner. Stuff that was "in stock" on their website went out of stock when I placed my order, and still hadn't shipped a month later when I cancelled my order. Got the exact same items elsewhere.

I *like* Highland, but if I have something I absolutely need to have by a certain date, Lee Valley or TFWW have been a lot better about providing (and meeting) accurate ship dates.


----------



## bearkatwood

Goody up for bids in Jersey
Acme Saw Filer


----------



## JamesWPA

G5Flyr - a very belated thank you for your feedback!

Here is something more age-appropriate for this thread - can anyone positively identify this bare handle I acquired at a flea market? I thought it was an older Disston, but the bolt pattern does not match anything I could find. I happened to run across a picture of a Richardson Brothers saw, and seems to be a match. Sadly, there is no medallion or plate to confirm this.


----------



## DLAT

All the early Richardson Bros # 15's had that handle; long lambs tongue, steep drop, single nib at bottom of saw. It certainly looks right.


----------



## JamesWPA

Thanks David, 
"#15" is more than I had before, I have not been able to find a listing of the Richardson Bros. model numbers. I have been looking for a suitable donor plate to use for this handle to make a big rip saw, no luck so far. Here is the handle after cleaning with #0000 and mineral spirits. Hard to believe it survived this long without further damage.


----------



## bearkatwood

Price lowered to $225. Seems like a great deal if you are in that area.









Acme Saw Filer For Sale.


----------



## BenDupre

Hi Saw experts. Today I procured what I believe is a Langdon Miter box with a Diston backsaw. I suspect these are a marriage of convenience but that is what I would like advice on. This is the first of these I have acquired. Here are my questions:

1) There are no markings that I can see on the box. How might I know it's maker and/or vinatage?
2) The previous owner has painted it. Is this an improvement (opinions yay or nay)?
3) The saw does not cut all the way down to the spoil board - or through the wood. Is this because it is the wrong saw? There don't appear to be any adjustments.
4) The positive lock appears to be very sloppy, is this normal? First cut was not exactly square in either axis.
5) gave $50 for it. Did I do well?























































Thanks!
Ben


----------



## theoldfart

Ben, the mitre box is a New Langdon made in Miller's Falls, Ma by the Langdon Mitre Box Company. Since there aren't any stop guides it appears the saw may be too short. A couple of things you can try. First pull out one of the posts and measure from the bottom of the top opening to the top of the lower opening. If this measurement exceeds the width of the saw then you will need another saw.. if the measurement is less then saw width there are two small set screws in the post tubes that can adjust the saw up or down by a small amount. I can post some explanatory pics if this will help.

The saw is intriguing. It may confirm a suspicion I've had about Langdons saws around the time of their move in 1875. Since there is no city stamp on the spine only the Langdon name I'm guessing they were ordered from Disston that way and Langdon stamped the city name on them. The oldest are stamped Northampton and latter ones are stamped Miller's Falls.

Edit, just looked at your pics again. The gap between the saw and the gib is too large for any adjustments to the set screws.


----------



## DLAT

Perhaps you could change in a thicker spoil board to eliminate the gap.


----------



## BenDupre

This saw has a remnant of Northampton Mass on the spine. I can only see "ass" as the stamp was either misstruck or somehow a portion of the spine is ground off. Not sure what is at play there. The saw definitely seems right but maybe this is not the box it started life with. There really is no mark on the box at all. Maybe at one time there was a label or plate that got removed. The previous owner has scabbed another poplar spoilboard on there. I removed it. Any suggestions on how to tighten up the detents? Are they normally that sloppy?


----------



## theoldfart

Ben, if it has Northampton on it it predates the box. We are sort of hijacking the saw thread. This discussion should move over to the mitre box thread. I'm posting some pics there to help.


----------



## BenDupre

I found myself Googling this question with only frustrating results: when did Disston stop using split nuts. For example if I was hinting and saw a split nut saw, i could be assured it was older than XXXX. Thanks for the wisdom


----------



## theoldfart

1876


----------



## maddogio

Hi all

I bought a JD Darlington dovetail on an online auction a few weeks ago. It was mislabeled and there's a lot of pitting on the spine. Got it cheap. I was doing some light cleanup on the medallion, which has a bunch of grime. There's a red background under the grime, though. Any ideas on whether this was stock or user applied? Of if it's something other than paint? I know there were some old medallions with color, but I've seen no evidence on the Peace/JD Darlington lines of saws.


----------



## Johnny7

I've never come across a Darlington with factory applied color of any kind on the medallion.

I have several and have sold dozens.
It's even less likely when you consider that JD Darlington was a second-line saw brand of Harvey Peace.

If that's paint, then my 1st and 2nd guesses are that, at some point in it's life, for kicks or for identification, a previous owner painted the entire handle red and that's the only place it still exists.


----------



## maddogio

Thanks. I don't think the handle was painted, as there's what appears to be a pretty nice originalish patina on it. Maybe the medallion was painted. Or maybe it's some organic gunk under the grime.


----------



## bandit571

In use today…









Not a D-100…..but was made about the same time…might be a D-112….26", 7ppi, carved handle "D-8".....cut fast, cuts straight…about two "pulls" and it will be taking full length strokes….


----------



## DavePolaschek

Posted a project today that included cutting open a box with a BearkatWood saw.










I bought it as a dedicated dado saw (long enough for up to a 12" wide board, stiff enough to do the job), but this big boy also does okay ripping open a box.

Thanks again, Brian!


----------



## DavePolaschek

Another saw added to the collection recently. A little (4") Crown gent saw. Less than a double-sawbuck, but it's a lot easier to use cutting the miters on mitered dovetails than my dovetail saw, which I tend to run into the bench, kinking the blade and then having to retension it. Pain in the butt.










Only problem with the crown was a LOT too much set, but a half-dozen passes with the mill bastard file down the sides resolved that issue and now it makes the two angled cuts on every pin board.


----------



## theoldfart

Dave,, that kerf seems really thin. Can you still get a fret saw blade in there to clear the waste?


----------



## DavePolaschek

Kevin, the gent saw cut gets met by a dovetail saw cut coming in from the edge of the board, so no worries about the kerf there.

For the regular dovetails in the middle, my turning saw blades are thinner than the kerf (0.018) left by my dovetail saw, so no problem on that front.

Edited to add 1:Here's the instructions I started from, which show a good picture of the mitered through dovetails I'm using. I've done something like 40 of them with the regular dovetail saw, but about every fourth corner, I would bump the nose of the dovetail saw into the bench, kinking and de-tensioning the blade. This gent saw solves that problem nicely.

Edited to add 2: And I realize if I followed the directions completely, I would turn the board around and make that cut uphill instead of downhill, but that would mean spinning each pin board around in the vise an additional time.


----------



## BenDupre

> Another saw added to the collection recently. A little (4") Crown gent saw. Less than a double-sawbuck, but it's a lot easier to use cutting the miters on mitered dovetails than my dovetail saw, which I tend to run into the bench, kinking the blade and then having to retension it. Pain in the butt.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Only problem with the crown was a LOT too much set, but a half-dozen passes with the mill bastard file down the sides resolved that issue and now it makes the two angled cuts on every pin board.
> 
> - Dave Polaschek


I have that same saw! and that's a great use for it.


----------



## Karda

Hi I have a saw with only 2 bolts but these are very odd, they are flat where they contact the handle and I can't find any like them. I don't know the brand, no etch and the medallion is among the missing anybody have any Idea what it s and where I can find screws thanks Mike


----------



## tshiker

Looking for any info related to this saw. Stamp reads (as far as I can tell) Horton & C? Possibly Horton & Co. Warranted Cast Steel. The handle looks original or a very old replacement to me, the split nuts look undisturbed. That's not a lamb's tongue, it's a break. I didn't find any info using google or in my copy of Schaffer's book. Thanks in advance for your help!


----------



## Johnny7

> I didn t find any info using google or in my copy of Schaffer s book. Thanks in advance for your help!
> 
> - tshiker


Your saw may well be a UK product.
As a result, if we're talking "Handsaw Makers of North America" you're not gonna find it.

"British Saws & Saw Makers" by Simon Barley, a resource to which I don't have access, would be a good place to look. If you're really lucky, LJ Brit may chime in


----------



## Karda

what makes you say the handle is a replacement


----------



## DLAT

BSSM has no listing for Horton and the addendum of BSSM on the internet also has no listing for Horton. So no evidence yet that it is a British saw. Should it in fact turn out to be British, Simon Barley states that "Warranted" was a term mostly used after 1840, although it appears very occasionally before then. A small help with dating.


----------



## tshiker

Thanks David. It didn't strike me as British but what do I know!

Karda, I didn't say it was replaced, just that judging from the undisturbed look to the split nuts, if it had been replaced it happened long ago.


----------



## Karda

sorry misunderstood are going to use or collect that is a nice saw


----------



## bandit571

Cardio Workout for today…involved this Disston D-112, 26", 7ppi crosscut saw..









The task? Trim the ends on a new deck for the WorkMate..as it was a bit ragged looking…









Old top went into the firepit…so..









Only "guide" used was the left thumb's knuckle….framing square to draw a line across, square to the front edges..
.








Old top?









71 degrees outside…yeah, got a good workout…


----------



## Karda

isn't that what hand tools are for, cheaper that the gym


----------



## seeds444

I posted a question about Disston Mexico in the general hand tools forum. Here is probably a better place for it. I've been working on it bit by bit, and have some pictures to share.Let's see if I can figure out how to do it.


----------



## seeds444

The medallion is aluminum. Does anybody recognize the wood of the handle? I'm looking for general information about Disston Mexico, and approximate age. I imagine the two questions are the same. When did Disston go international? It's a 7 point rip saw. 24" long. I've found what appear to be numbers etched into the plate, but nothing like what I would expect the stamp to look like. The cleanup continues, slowly. We're having highs in the low to mid 40s C this past week, and we get our second Pfizer shot tomorrow. The first one kept me down for a day. For this one I hope to be moving around on Monday.


----------



## kwigly

Not sure when Disston established in Mexico (perhaps you can look at Disston advertising and see when Mexico was listed as a branch office), but a quick google shows Disston Co de Mexico was part of H K Porter co in 1959, and taken over by Cooper industries in 1998. I'd guess your medallion style dates to c1950s


----------



## Karda

try this site about Disston saws


----------



## summerfi

This saw was made by Josiah Bakewell during the period 1853-1860 when he was with Wheeler, Madden & Bakewell in Middletown, NY. It is a 16" tenon saw with a very pitted plate and a broken (now repaired) upper horn. Bakewell saws are uncommon but not rare. They are definitely collectible. The thing that makes this saw special, though, is who it's owner is. I performed this restoration for Joshua Bakewell, a great x 4 grandson of Josiah Bakewell. In an age when many people can't wait to sell off grandpa's old tools for whatever they will bring, it's refreshing to see someone who understands and wants to preserve his family's history. Joshua will be putting this saw on display in his home, so in that context the pitted plate is not an issue. When he is done with it, he will pass it down to his kids or grandkids some day. It was a pleasure and an honor to work on this saw for Joshua. I hope his family enjoys it for many generations to come.

*Before*









*After*


----------



## Karda

you did a fine restoration, it is refreshing for young people to want to preserve history. Did you sharpen the saw as well.


----------



## summerfi

Karda, yes, it is sharpened rip as a tenon saw.


----------



## Mosquito

That is a really cool story Bob, glad to see it getting brought back and honored


----------



## Karda

what MOS said


----------



## Johnny7

+1 on both the restoration and the backstory


----------



## DavePolaschek

Very cool, Bob! Both the story and the saw.


----------



## tshiker

Very nice saw and a fantastic restoration!


----------



## Karda

finaly found a saw to work on, it is a 20" 10 point warranted superior cross cut I found a disston etch. I see 2 people, basket player i think and the wood pacemaker, keystone and medallion at the bottom the wood disston and some numbers. i will work more tomorrow. There are 10 points but they are a mess, how can I straighten this out. thanks


----------



## KentInOttawa

Karda - the BEST (bar none IMO) reference on the web is from LJ Brit (Andy). This video is long, but also quite comprehensive.

Short answer - joint and retooth.


----------



## DLK

You will have to joint off all the teeth and then mark and cut new teeth, then add fleem and set.. Templates for new teeth are here. Besides Andy's video's these articles are an excellent non video reference. I fold these templates over the saw plate (after jointing off all the teeth) and tape them down with "blue" painters tape. I use a needle file (or diamond file) to mark the teeth location. Then decide on the rake angle and cut new teeth straight across until only a little square is left at the points. Then I add fleem removing half the square on the the left side and the other half from the right. Good luck. It took me about ten tries to get my first cross cut sharpened correctly. You might cut it with 8 pp, if it is your first practice saw. Learning to sharpen a saw is a good way to spend one covid week. My two biggest mistakes were (1) trying to add fleem at the same time as adding rake, (2) adding set befor adding fleam.


----------



## bandit571

Hmmm…I doubt IF these 2 of mine will need any more than a refresh…









5-1/2 ppi rip, 8ppi crosscut….both are D8s….with the "8" inside of the "D"....









Both with very readable etches…









Need to pick up a file..or two…..

Heading for Columbus, OH today…...a Scan with Contrast, Blood work, and then a covid testing site….prepping for the Watchman surgery this coming Friday….

Note: both saws cost a dollar bill each….and merely needed a clean up. Once you pick up one these style handles…it is just way too hard to just lay them back down, and walk away…...


----------



## bandit571

OK…setting up for ..








Since my regular sharpening service guy is in the Hospital…









Hmmm, plate a tad too wide….must be almost new?










extra light as needed…









First pass down the 28" long, 5-1/2ppi saw….may turn it around, and go back up the other way….









Have a pair of new files, too….and a second saw awaiting it's turn..









Both of these D(no hyphen)8s are about the same age…..~110 years old?









Second saw is 26" long, 8 ppi…..
Stay tuned…


----------



## DavePolaschek

Before:










After:



Pretty happy with the upgrade.


----------



## RWE

I picked up this little D8 over the weekend:
The saw is definitely an 11 PPI D8, 18 inch toothline, Philada. (Seller wanted $29, bought it for $15, probably worth $10 in condition it is in).

13/16" medallions
(found on backsaws and panel saws
as well as No. 16, D-20,
D-21, D-22, and D-23 full-sized saws)

1896-1917

Having never seen one so small, it made an impression on me. I guess they are somewhat common? 
I will have to cut the toe about a half inch to get rid of the curious little nick there. Hopefully I have a saw nut to match in my inventory. The handle is in excellent shape.

Looks like a child's toybox saw, but I suppose it was a household type of thing or for a tradesman that wanted a really short saw for his toolbox.

Do you fellows see these little saws often? First time I have seen one this tiny.




























From the Disstonian site:
Seems they made a 16 inch as well.
Manufactured only in the following lengths and points:
inches points wholesale
Crosscut 
16 9, 10 $14.75 per dozen
18 9, 10, 11 $16.25
20 8, 9, 10, 11 $18.00
22 8, 9, 10, 11 $20.00
24 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 $21.50
26 5½, 6, 6½, $22.50
7, 8, 9, 10, 11 
28 5, 6, 7, 8 $25.50
Rip 
20 7 $18.00
22 7 $20.00
24 5, 5½, 6, 7 $21.50
26 4½, 5, 5½, 6 $22.50
28 3½, 4, 4½, 5, 5½, 6 $25.50


----------



## Johnny7

In general, saws less than full size (26", 28") are know as panel saws.

I suspect yours was a 20" saw, since the rounded corner of the toe is missing (apart from the chunk at the toothline)

You can see the corner in this pic of a NOS D-8 I recently sold:









If there's still an etch present, and the saw's length has not been altered, it should be centered between heel and toe.


----------



## RWE

I have a half dozen panel saws, but all are in the 24-26 inch range. I may have noticed the Disstonian info about the smaller sized saws previously, but never paid it much attention, so the super short panel saw just surprised me.


----------



## RWE

Well the little D-8 is 12PPI. There seems to be a gap in PPI info on the Disstonian site. They show 12 PPI in the 1932 Catalogs, 1937 Catalogs, but no listing showing PPI for the Philida series from 1896-1917.

I have two other 12 PPI panels saws, one is a Warranted Superior and the other is a fairly rare Tip Top that seems to be a hardware brand by Bishop (Same etch as their Oriole model, but Tip Top instead of Oriole).

Anyone else ever run into a 12 PPI Disston?


















Johnny7. I don't think the round area on the top of the top was clear in the previous pictures, but it is there and looks original. so I think this is definitely an 18 inch model. Soon to be a 17 1/2 inch model.


----------



## bandit571

Happen to have a Disston D-8, 10 ppi, 20" long Panel saw…









take it from there..









Still has an "0" left over from the 10 stamp….

Happen to have 2 other Panel Saws..









The one on the left is an Atkins model….the other is a WS model….


----------



## Johnny7

> Johnny7. I don t think the round area on the top of the top was clear in the previous pictures, but it is there and looks original. so I think this is definitely an 18 inch model.
> 
> - RWE


Better still!
(and though I have many, many saws, I have no 12 pt Disston)


----------



## RWE

Bandit:

Happen to have a Disston D-8, 10 ppi, 20" long Panel saw…

What medalion is that? The handle looks like an earlier period.

Also, anyone. How the heck do you cut and paste a quote from a previous email like Johnny7 did on the previous post so that you have the yellow background. Is there a hot key for that?


----------



## Johnny7

*RWE*

click on the light grey "Quote" link in the lower right corner of the post you wish to quote.
The post, in its entirey will appear in the area in which you type your response.

Note that the quoted text can be edited-you don't have to include extraneous text, photos, but leave the < blockquote > delimiters at the beginning and end.


----------



## RWE

> *RWE*
> 
> click on the light grey "Quote" link in the lower right corner of the post you wish to quote.
> 
> - Johnny7


Got it. Never saw that little quote thing. Live and learn.


----------



## JethroBodean

So last night I finally bit on a little 10" Atkins No 2 backsaw. I picked knowing there was a glaring flaw.

The plate is straight.
The handle looks to be free of chips and cracks
All of the brass hardware is present and accounted for.
I would say that it has a strong etch.

The only problem is that somewhere along the time stream of it's life; this little darling had it's spine shortened. All that's left is about an inch in the handle.

Which finally gets me to my point. Anyone aware of sources for a folded steel back (i'd accept brass)? Blackburn and TGIAG both appear to be shut down for the time being. Or does anybody have an orphaned back just lying around?


----------



## RWE

Jethro:

I picked up this modified Atkins several years back. I got all excited about finding a "sure-nuff" stair saw. After everyone quit laughing at me they explained that it was a user modification. Whoever modified the plate did a great job.

So I have had it disassembled trying to figure out what to do with it.

I am sending you a PM.

The back is 15 inches long.


----------



## JethroBodean

I once picked up a 'Table Saw' or so I thought. After I cleaned the plate I discovered that half the etch had disappeared into the toothline. The darn thing was just a regular hand saw that had been sharpened so many times that it just looked a bit like a table saw.


----------



## bearkatwood

selling off some acme filers and my standall filer. Asking $400 each. or best offer. local pickup.


----------



## Karda

any body ever heard of Winchester saws, New Haven Connecticut. I bought a Warranted Superior26" 8ppi with a Winchester etch


----------



## kwigly

Winchester sold a variety of woodworking tools under the Winchester brand, made for them on order from tool Manufacturers. I'm not sure which saw manufacturer supplied their saws, but you can estimate the age using the usual guidelines, (handle shape, screw type and screw metal, etc), and/or possibly see a possible match in catalogs from Disston/Atkins/Bishop/Simonds etc


----------



## bandit571

Saws?









Seen a few over the weekend…









Left: Disston No.4…..Right: Simmonds back saw









Not sure about that one….


----------



## UpstateNYdude

> selling off some acme filers and my standall filer. Asking $400 each. or best offer. local pickup.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - bearkatwood


Can you please move to upstate NY with those?

Thanks!


----------



## bearkatwood

Um, no.


----------



## Karda

qot a dum question, in all of you collecting of old rusty junk saw what do you do with the cleaned up old rusty junk saw that are just that. They are plane, no name saw and you can't use or don't want in your collection. You can make just so many card scrapers. What do you do with these saws


----------



## CaptainKlutz

> ... can t use or don t want in your collection. What do you do with these saws - Karda


Guess could take up painting pictures as a hobby, using acrylic paints to put purdy country/snow scenes side of saw plate, and sell them at craft fairs? Maybe donate to local Habitat for Humanity store?

Probably not right person to answer: 
Never seen a pre-1950 hand saw, except in pictures here? 
Most of my hand saws have plastic handles…............ exit stage right >>>>>>>>>>>>>>


----------



## HokieKen

With old tools like that, I usually offer them up for grabs on Lumberjocks for the cost of shipping first. Then if there are no takers, I take them to the Habitat store. You never know, there might be an LJ looking for saws to practice sharpening on ;-)

Another option is to use the plate to make a smaller saw.


----------



## DavePolaschek

Karda, I sought out just such a saw. It's a perfect one for me to practice on.


----------



## Lazyman

My non-woodworker buddy uses his plasma cutter to cut them into tree shapes and gives them to friends as xmas gifts. 








If I ever need a handle, I'll always have a backup.


----------



## garethmontreal

Hi everybody been 6 months since my last confession…


----------



## CL810

Bless you son, go and sin some more.


----------



## drsurfrat

For your amusement. I picked up a saw vice for $15 and it turned out to be a Sergeant No 105 with a ball and socket clamp. It's in really good shape, the thumbscrew head has been replaced with a crossbar that is really solid. As I looked at the vice jaws I realized that they were trashed. Can you imagine how much effort was put into these grooves - and not the saw? At the far end, it is actually curved there is so much material removed.


----------



## RWE

Looks salvageable to me, if it clamps tightly still. The fellow that cut those grooves must have been a bit impatient or the saw kept slipping down on him. The gullets should not ever be so close that you cut the vise.


----------



## drsurfrat

Found another one. This one is marked "Henry Disston & Sons" Noting broken, little rust, and even much of the japanning intact.


----------



## drsurfrat

I have a question about the age of this saw. Can anyone help?




























It has flush split nuts, which implies that it is pre 1880. It does not have a medallion, which either means it is pre 1840, or just a low end version without medallions. The nuts all seem to be different sizes.

The wood is very dry, but amazingly intact. The "lamb's tongue(?)" is not defined by carving. Does the handle shape and details imply anything?

The sawplate is very pitted, and no chance of seeing a mark or etch. It has a curious step in the back under the handle, and you can see by the teeth that it was part of the original shape. It had a nib on the toe (corroded off), but that apparently means nothing.

Can anyone make sense of this odd list of characteristics?

Thanks


----------



## drsurfrat

Some more info: Each nut is different: from top, clockwise: 0.450, 0.532, 0.436, 0.465. And the plate has a thickness taper from 0.033" at the top near the handle to 0.041" at the bottom near the handle and teeth.


----------



## bandit571

And…those bolts are put in backwards…

The 0.532 would have been the Medallion bolt..


----------



## kwigly

bolts in backwards, and part of the plate chopped off to create that odd step, indicate previous Owner modifications. Saws were expensive back in the day, and Owners would go to some length to keep them working. Saw Manufacturers would sell spare handles and spare bolts to assist Repairers. 
I'd guess the handle is a replacement, being drilled to suit the saw screws the Owner had available. Likely the saw plate doesn't match the original due to that piece cut off near the handle (Manufacturers produced saw lengths in 2" increments, measured at the toothline)


----------



## adot45

I had a great day at a flea market yesterday. I picked up a Sargent VBM 415, a Stanley Knucklecap, a Stanley 18" machinist level, a Stanley 2" Sweetheart bench plane iron, a Stanley no. 91 dual beam marking gauge, a Stanley no. 199 utility knife and what might have been one of the best deals ($5) if not the best deal was a Diston D-15. 








I didn't notice the writing to the right of the etch until getting this post together.








A nice handle








pretty good shape.









I've become astoundingly proficient at removing the etches on these old saws so this time I'm tempted to just leave it alone.


----------



## Johnny7

> A nice handle
> 
> I ve become astoundingly proficient at removing the etches on these old saws so this time I m tempted to just leave it alone.
> 
> - adot45


Your handle is likely rosewood. There are only a few war-years models where something else was used.

Take it easy if cleaning those fasteners-they are plated; don't try to scrub them as you might brass.

Finally, good idea on the cleaning restraint-in this instance, I advise only using a razor blade at a low angle to shave off rust.


----------



## adot45

Thank you for the information and suggestion Johnny7.


----------



## drsurfrat

A rosewood handle - that is a keeper.

....

More on the odd saw above. I saturated the plate with WD40 and look what showed up:









This is very much like TheBrit's find in 2011
A vintage English Hand Saw

and Quite Carpentry's (I love that name)
26"  crosscut Saw early 1800's

Yes they are in backwards, but they fit very closely on both sides. The back sizes don't match the front nuts, either.. And the step in the heel is the wrong direction to be made after it was originally built.

The plate is very rotten, not only the stamp above , but the toe is mostly gone.


----------



## theoldfart

S Biggins and sons possibly.


----------



## BlasterStumps

About 9 years ago, I made this blanket chest for our son and his wife as a wedding gift. We were over at their place this last weekend and I saw it sitting there in the downstairs family room so I took a couple pictures of it. I didn't take pictures of it at the time I finished it. It was made when I could still see enough to cut some hand cut dovetails. Even so, not too good of job : ). It survived some years in Denver area, some years in the Florida Panhandle and now back in Denver. Sorry about the wonky photos.


----------



## theoldfart

That is a nice chest Mike. Finely crafted.


----------



## RWE

The chest looks great. I have some new prescription glasses on the way. I continue to chase doing dovetails. That is a nice project and from your pictures it looks like you did a great job.


----------



## Karda

nice job


----------



## KentInOttawa

> - BlasterStumps


I would be ecstatic to have a dovetailed project turn out so well.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Thanks guys for the kind words. It was a fun project.


----------



## HokieKen

That's a gorgeous chest Mike! Can't knock those dovetails a bit


----------



## drsurfrat

Mike in CO, please make it a project so that we can find it later. I have 40 b.f. of new cherry waiting to turn into something very similar to that.

Kevin - thank you for the logo research, that one makes a lot more sense. There is no star between S and B(J)


----------



## drsurfrat

gotta admit, this is fun. (for me)










Kevin's (thanks again) on the left, mine in the middle, web pic on the right.

"From 1845 to 1849 HSMOB has Biggin and Son (one son) listed. Italics mine. The son was Samuel Biggin Jr.
From 1852 to 1856 it is Biggin and Sons (Henry and Samuel)
And from 1856 to 1860 the company was Biggin and Co."

- HSMOB is a book "Handsaw Makers of Britain"


----------



## KentInOttawa

In 2020 I bought this mitre jack on eBay.










So naturally, I needed a saw for it. In my search, I was lucky enough to find this one from Brian Noel before he closed up shop at Bearkatwood.com. It was a production second from a batch that he had made on commission for someone else.










I tried it out a few times, but I felt the corners at the ends were too sharp and uncomfortable for me to want to use it much. Since I have a small project coming up that I would like to use the mitre jack for, I thought that I would have a go at reshaping the ends of the handle.










After starting with a chisel, I realized that I would get better results with a plane, so I switched to a 60 1/2.










A variety of rasps and chisels were used to refine the shape further.










Testing the results for feel told me that I needed to extend the cove from the sides to the end. This first end was rasped and filed to where it is now. It feels much better, but I think that I'll need to deepen the cove a bit more and then sand or scrape the finish smoother.










I think I'll start the cove on the other end with a shallow saw kerf to speed up the waste removal and to help keep the files and rasps better aligned with the handle. I'll be oiling it all once the tool work is complete.


----------



## theoldfart

Kent, I like the jack. Get back to us on your impressions after using it for a while.


----------



## TedT2

Any ideas what maker this saw has? I can't figure out the top line. It is a backsaw that I have.










I know the middle says Extra and the bottom New York. It's bugging me that I can't figure it out.

This is the whole saw.










Thank you in advance.


----------



## drsurfrat

I thing you are getting no feedback because we can't figure it out. I looked where I could and found nuttin'. Is there and etch or a stamp on the plate? Is there a medallion? I can't make out from these little pictures. 
If you put WD40 on the plate (not handle) it might bring out a stamp or even an etch.


----------



## Brit

*Ted* - As Mike says, it is hard to say exactly from your photos, but since it says New York on the spine and the handle has a 'nose' (the bit that sticks out over the spine) with a split nut going through it, I would guess it was a J. D. Darlington which were second line saws sold by Harvey Peace. Second line saws were still good saws but generally made of not quite as good materials, so instead of spring steel they might be made of cast steel. At the time, saw makers used a variety of terms (mostly they were just marketing hype) to make their saws more appealing than those of the competition. So instead of just saying CAST STEEL, they might add EXTRA or EXTRA REFINED or BEST CAST STEEL, etc.

So I think the first line of text on the spine reads CAST, the second line reads EXTRA and the third line reads NEW YORK.

Edit: Actually thinking about it, the first line could say 'BEST'


----------



## TedT2

Thank you both. I could find nothing on the plate and there was no medallion. I figured it was a second line saw from somewhere. I ended up selling it as is so the mystery is over. I was just frustrated trying to figure it out. I appreciate the help.


----------



## bandit571

Found at a garage sale this morning..









Has been used….made by Irwin..









Push of the button, and the handle swings around to the other end….left or right hand grip?

Cost me a whopping $3 this morning…...I think Lowes sell these for around $15 + Tax?

Might come in handy…


----------



## bandit571

Hmmm…









Back side of a handle….medallion says Warranted Superior….the "etch"?









Seems to say "Olaf", from the movie Frozen…..$1 garage sale "find"...that I am NOT allowed to clean up/rehab









Yep, back when Disston was making a plastic handle for their saws…..


----------



## Brit

Anyone got any information on the correct way to sharpen Great American tooth pattern crosscut saws The they wouldn't mind sharing with me? If so, please message me and I'll send you my email address. There seems to be a lot of conflicting opinions on the web. This is the type of saw I mean:


----------



## HokieKen

With a file Andy.

Sorry. It had to be done ;-)


----------



## Brit

In the words of Queen Victoria Kenny, "We are not amused."


----------



## HokieKen

How did you know my first name was Victoria?


----------



## bandit571

Didn't the US Forestry Service have a booklet out ….all about those kinds of saws?

Also…both Disston and Atkins both told how to sharpen their cross cut saws like Brit has….even shows all the tools needed….and, in their older catalogs…sold said tools…..yes, even a file….2 actually, needed one to joint the teeth….


----------



## Thedustydutchman

Picked this one up last week. I am not a big hand saw user, and when I use them I like the Japanese pull saws more. This came in a lot I bought. Is this a good one to hold onto?


----------



## bandit571

Yep!

have one just like it….and use it…









Thumbhole grip is so you can use BOTH hands while sawing…usually as a rip saw. 









When not in use…


----------



## RWE

That is a classic thumbhole D-8 (Disston). If the points per inch suit your style of woodwork, you have a nice saw there. Most thumbhole D-8's I have seen were rip pattern. The thumbhole allowed you to get a nice hand over hand grip for the longer task of ripping a board.

I have one that I like a lot. I had another that had a coarse (6 PPI or so) tooth rip pattern that I gifted to a friend.

If you don't like using it, bring it back to a nice state and just look at it. Best handle going in my opinion.


----------



## Thedustydutchman

Whats the best way to clean up the rust on it? Its in good shape overall. Deffinently set up as a rip saw. Haven't counted the TPI yet. It cut some pine easy enough.


----------



## RWE

If you have an etch, you will want to be careful and use wet/dry paper, fine grits, denatured alcohol or WD-40 and work off the rust.

If I don't have an etch to worry about, I use a Porter Cable Restorer with the derusting wheel. I have used acid, Evaporust and such as well. I would recommend removing the saw handle first before trying to clean the saw plate. Work on the handle as a separate endeavor.

If you are new to sharpening and setting a saw, lots of good content on here about that. You mentioned pine. I have most of my saws set up for hardwood work. You can get by with a light set for hardwoods that are dry. If you work with soft wood, like pine, then you want more set since the wood will spring back into the kerf and clamp back on the saw plate.

I think it is Brit that has a good blog post on sharpening and setting. Bob Summerfield is a master. Bob posts here and has a great site.

Thumbhole D-8's are "worthy" in my opinion.


----------



## Brit

Thumb hole handles are great if you are right-handed, but they never made a left-handed version, so no good for me.


----------



## Brit

I've managed to find what I needed to file the Great American tooth saw on the Library of Congress site.


----------



## drsurfrat

Jerry, like you I usually use pull saws, but I also have one of those D8 thumbhole rip saws, and it is my go-to for ripping boards like Bandit showed.

I do minimal cleaning on my iron tools, I'd use some WD40 and a razor blade at a low angle might be enough to get the chunks off. Then paste wax for both the handle and the saw plate.


----------



## Thedustydutchman

Thanks for the advice everyone. I am also from the school of minimal cleaning on my iron tools. I like to keep the patina intact if possible so ill try wd40 first. I have been reading all about sharpening and really want to give it a try.


----------



## drsurfrat

> Anyone got any information on the correct way to sharpen Great American tooth pattern crosscut saws The they wouldn t mind sharing with me? If so, please message me and I ll send you my email address. There seems to be a lot of conflicting opinions on the web. This is the type of saw I mean:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Brit


That is a different one to me. Can you give us a closeup of the teeth? Is it filed with alternating cuts, or is there a raker flat at the bigger notches? It doesn't make sense to me to have sets of three teeth.


----------



## HokieKen

It seems to be filed with alternating cuts Mike. Zig-Zag-Zig on one set and Zag-Zig-Zag on the next.


----------



## drsurfrat

Just regular alternating crosscut with maybe big gullets for chip clearance?

Brit - if you are going to use it, I highly recommend a second handle attachment using that hole in the plate near the handle. Makes for much better leverage and control to me.


----------



## Brit

Absolutely Mike. The saw didn't come with an auxiliary handle, so I ordered one from Thomas Flinn & Co. It came today and fits perfectly.


----------



## Brit

My Great American tooth saw file arrived today. It is teardrop shaped. Apparently you can do all the filing with this one file.


----------



## BugeyedEarl

I dug up a little mystery in my own garage this afternoon. I finally started cleaning up one of my Grandpa's saws, but don't recognize the brand "Progress", so I thought I'd ask the experts. Saw is 26", 9 tpi, and the handle doesn't have a medallion. The etching is a bit of a word salad and says:

Warranted Extra

Cast Steel

*PROGRESS.*

Patent

Ground

St. Louis USA

Can't find anything on manufacturer named Progress in St Louis, but maybe it was made by Simonds or Shapleigh for another brand? I'm not sure if that was a common practice as it was in later years though. I'd love to know more about it, the jumble of fonts is a typographer's nightmare, but it certainly makes it look old.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Random Summerfield porn.


----------



## bigblockyeti

Sexy!!!


----------



## bandit571

Putting Mr. Geo. H. Bishop to work, tired of him just hanging around….









A No. 10 saw…









Made in Indianapolis, IN. Readable etch also say "Made by Hand" 









Not too bad of a saw…


----------



## bandit571

> I dug up a little mystery in my own garage this afternoon. I finally started cleaning up one of my Grandpa s saws, but don t recognize the brand "Progress", so I thought I d ask the experts. Saw is 26", 9 tpi, and the handle doesn t have a medallion. The etching is a bit of a word salad and says:
> 
> Warranted Extra
> 
> Cast Steel
> 
> *PROGRESS.*
> 
> Patent
> 
> Ground
> 
> St. Louis USA
> 
> Can t find anything on manufacturer named Progress in St Louis, but maybe it was made by Simonds or Shapleigh for another brand? I m not sure if that was a common practice as it was in later years though. I d love to know more about it, the jumble of fonts is a typographer s nightmare, but it certainly makes it look old.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - BugeyedEarl


Might have been a Disston "Special saw" made for the St Louis World's Fair ( Meet me in St Louis?) Something about the "Century of Progress"?


----------



## BugeyedEarl

> Might have been a Disston "Special saw" made for the St Louis World s Fair ( Meet me in St Louis?) Something about the "Century of Progress"?
> 
> - bandit571


I like that theory, but I wonder if they would have made something a little flashier for that event? Maybe this one showcased the lower end of the range…

I'm no artist, but I tried to draw out the etch since it's practically invisible in the photos. Looks pretty cool, though faint, in person.










...more or less…


----------



## Phil32

> My Great American tooth saw file arrived today. It is teardrop shaped. Apparently you can do all the filing with this one file.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Brit


Thanks Brit
I discovered an identical file in my file drawer, but it's marked "Nicholson - U.S.A. - Made in U.S.A."


----------



## PCDub

Can anyone tell me where to find a clear image of the etching on this saw? I found one in my father's old stuff and can't quite make out the etching and wondered what the drawing looks like. This is the best image I found of it in my searching-it's from the 1935 catalog. 
Thanks!


----------



## Johnny7

how's this:










It appears to be a two-man bobsled


----------



## theoldfart

Johnny, there seems to be NO end to the depth of your collection!

Also, would you be interested in a swap for that Atkins picture frame saw I have?

You know the one


----------



## Johnny7

> Johnny, there seems to be NO end to the depth of your collection!
> 
> Also, would you be interested in a swap for that Atkins picture frame saw I have?
> 
> You know the one
> 
> - theoldfart


Kevin,

I do have way too much stuff, but that is not one of mine-merely an image I got via the 'net

J7


----------



## Iban

Hi
I´m looking desperatedly for a guide on how to clean saws blades (brass backed above all). This thread is infinite.
Do you know if someone post a walkthrough steps?
Since I´m a new user I can not open new threads until my new one (posted some days ago…) is approved


----------



## donwilwol

> Hi
> I´m looking desperatedly for a guide on how to clean saws blades (brass backed above all). This thread is infinite.
> Do you know if someone post a walkthrough steps?
> Since I´m a new user I can not open new threads until my new one (posted some days ago…) is approved
> 
> - Iban


I have some help here


----------



## PCDub

> how s this:
> 
> [[[[image]]]]
> 
> It appears to be a two-man bobsled
> 
> - Johnny7


Well that's easier to see than on my saw!
A two-man bobsled, eh? Would have never guessed that!
If anyone has another image that shows the entire thing (for example, even a drawing of it) I'd love to see it.


----------



## KentInOttawa

> Hi
> I´m looking desperatedly for a guide on how to clean saws blades (brass backed above all). This thread is infinite.
> Do you know if someone post a walkthrough steps?
> Since I´m a new user I can not open new threads until my new one (posted some days ago…) is approved
> 
> - Iban





> I have some help here
> 
> - Don W


Also, if you do Facebook, there's the Saws, using, collecting, cleaning and restoring group that you could check out. Look for the "Hand Saw Cleaning and Rust Removal.pdf" file in the Files section.


----------



## bandit571

I'd have to go to the shop and look, but I think mine is a "Pacemaker", the one with 2 guys running a race…

Might want to look at the Disstonian Institute site…and look up Keystone saws….


----------



## RWE

I had a Pacemaker at some point. I need to also go and look in the shop. It was the two guys running logo. When I searched on the internet I saw that a good Pacemaker saw was selling for $160 range on Ebay. That motivates me to go look for it.

Maybe the Keystone series used Olympic themed logos. Unfortunately the Disxtonian site only shows small catalog images and the logos are not clear.


----------



## bandit571

I think the first batch of Keystone saws did come out about the time of the 1936 Olympics…

There was a later, even cheaper batch in the 1950s, with names like..Townsman, and Rancher…..


----------



## Iban

Thanks Don W and Kent!


----------



## Johnny7

The graphics on the Disston Keystone saws were not a nod to the Olympics.

The line debuted in 1933 and featured. among other images, a jockey on horseback, a car, an airplane, and a speedboat.

these appeared on the K-1, K-2, K-4 and K-6, respectively


----------



## DLK

> Also, if you do Facebook, there s the Saws, using, collecting, cleaning and restoring group that you could check out. Look for the "Hand Saw Cleaning and Rust Removal.pdf" file in the Files section.
> 
> The facebook group Saws, using, collecting, cleaning and restoring
> 
> - Kent


The article Hand Saw Cleaning and Rust Removal.pdf is excellent as is any article on saws written by Bob page. See also his loon lake saw works website. The facebook group Saws, using, collecting, cleaning and restoring is one of the sane facebook groups that is actually helpful.

Bob Page is the Laboratory Facilities Manager for the college of Mechanical Engineering-Engineering Mechanics at Michigan Technological University. He knows his stuff!


----------



## Johnny7

*PCDub*

If that image didn't do it for ya, then go here:

https://historicip.com/trademarks/registration_certificates/0308512.pdf


----------



## bandit571

Disston started their Keystone line before 1931….but it was the 2-tone handle models….no. 704 and 705 even had wood handles….redesign in 1935 was the start of the K-1 through K-6A saws….


----------



## PCDub

> ....Might want to look at the Disstonian Institute site…and look up Keystone saws….
> 
> ....The graphics on the Disston Keystone saws were not a nod to the Olympics….


Yes, that's where I found the image I posted. Celebrating the Olympics certainly helps explain why in heck there would be a 2-man bobsled on a handsaw!

Johnny7, thanks! Yes that link shows the entire image!


----------



## Johnny7

For those interested in the facts, regarding the saw lineup under discussion, see Pete Taran's article HERE

For those unaware, Pete (in conjunction w/Patrick Leach) co-founded Independence Tools in the mid-1990's.
They were the first to reproduce the classic 19th C. backsaw.
They eventually sold out to Lie-Nielsen, which sells that saw under their name to this day.


----------



## bandit571

And, until that D-8 Thumbhole showed up in my shop….I was using the K-6a Challenger as my Rip saw..5.5 ppi.

Dad had a Disston Townsman…..and a friend of mine had a Disston Rancher saw. There was also a backsaw somewhere in that line-up.

Maybe after Lunch, when I meander down to the shop, concussion headache allowing….I'll open up the saw til and see just what saws I have….17 saws to look through, might take a while….


----------



## Iban

In case you have not watch this:

VIDEO

This guy say and probe that if you file dragging the file (without lifting) does not damage the teeth.

This could make sharpening saw teeth way much easier and faster


----------



## HokieKen

There are different reasons for not dragging files on saw teeth. Also, in that video he tested double cut files where even the fine cut has more tooth than the taper files for sharpening saws. Because of the thin, fragile edge of saw teeth and the set, if you drag against the set of a tooth with any pressure, you'll get catching. But nothing says you can't give it a go


----------



## Johnny7

the reduction in noise, in at least one direction, is reason enough for me to lift on the back stroke.

but beyond that, I concur with Kenny-especially when one considers the fragility of the teeth on the corners of the file-all important in forming a gullet.


----------



## HokieKen

Yep, that nasty sound was the first thing that came to my mind too Johnny…


----------



## Mosquito

I generally lift enough to avoid the noise, but not so much that it gets out of the gullet. So occasionally I catch a little metal on the back stroke, but I'm not too worried about that. It's not quite the same as "filing" on the back stroke


----------



## Iban

> There are different reasons for not dragging files on saw teeth. Also, in that video he tested double cut files where even the fine cut has more tooth than the taper files for sharpening saws. Because of the thin, fragile edge of saw teeth and the set, if you drag against the set of a tooth with any pressure, you ll get catching. But nothing says you can t give it a go
> 
> - HokieKen


He also tests coarse and medium files. Anyway I'm not suggesting to file backwards, just going back without pressure. 
Btw in any case the push movement is more annoying but bearable. At least in my opinion


----------



## DLK

Actually, we only the results for the particular files he tested. Other files even the same type made by different manufacturers may behave differently.


----------



## HokieKen

I've never been a huge stickler for lifting files even though it was drilled into my head way back as an apprentice machinist. Still not. And you'll probably not see any difference in file life if you drag it back with no pressure. I just meant if you file in the back stroke you run the risk of hitting the far-set tooth in such a way that you get that nice nails-on-chalkboard sound ;-)


----------



## DLK

Isn't that why you machinist are always playing loud heavy metal ? ;-)


----------



## KentInOttawa

The chances of me ever doing 2500 or 5000 strokes on any one file are extremely small, so I'll carry on doing it the way I do it now.


----------



## bandit571

Lets see….3 strokes per tooth at 5-1/2 teeth per inch…times 28" of saw plate….hmmmm…might add up to?

No wonder than Paul Sellers only uses one stroke per tooth….


----------



## bigblockyeti

> Lets see….3 strokes per tooth at 5-1/2 teeth per inch…times 28" of saw plate….hmmmm…might add up to?
> 
> No wonder than Paul Sellers only uses one stroke per tooth….
> 
> - bandit571


The off camera folks are doing the other 13 strokes!

Sort of like Norm working away in the NYWS, he makes a few cuts and lets the proletariat do the rest. Even when he bends the crap out of a nail or smashed his thumb with a waffle face framing hammer, it's never show. If they came out with a NYWS bloopers video, it would be a best seller, from tablesaw kickbacks taking out a camera to running the wide belt sander the dust collector running & of course Norm smacking his thumb then whipping a hammer through a window while cursing like a sailor.


----------



## DLK

Happy holidays










It didn't come home with me. ;-)


----------



## Lazyman

Bondage saws. The next holiday decorating fad.


----------



## HokieKen

Don't be silly. That's a chain saw.


----------



## bandit571

Someone got a workout today..









20" long, 10ppi, Disston D8 ( no hyphen) Panel saw…









About ready to turn the board around, and cut from the other end….









Took almost as long as it toke to lay out the cut..









Did not take very long to clean up the cut..









Works for me…


----------



## KentInOttawa

I've been puttering on this for far too long, but I finally finished mounting my new-to-me Stover Manufacturing Company No 14 saw vise. Its new mount raises my work to a more comfortable height and will allow it to be used in either my front or my tail vise.


----------



## RWE

That is a nice looking saw vise. Height looks good.

I have not sharpened a saw since I got my new "up close" glasses. Need to get started on that soon.


----------



## Iban

I´ve just purchased a couple of backsaws. I don´t have any hope of getting information of one of them. It just have a Warranted superior with an eagle medalion and that´s all.
But the other is intriguing to me




































I´ve seen some army hand chain saws from Francis Wood & Son but that handle? and those cone screws and nuts with the iron reinforcement??
Does that tell any of you something about age?


----------



## RWE

This is an interesting saw Iban. Bob Summerfield may have the broadest range and background on saws on this site. Hopefully he will chime in on this. I think his name used here is SummerFi. His web site is Rocky Mountain Saw Works and I believe you can contact him on his site or PM him here. I would love to read about whatever you find out about it.


----------



## drsurfrat

Wow, that is very cool. Striking looking faceplates, proud screws, a partial lamb's tongue, but not fully carved. very cool. no clue about age, but maybe at least find the Francis & Son business era? Of course you already know that.


----------



## theoldfart

It has a nice London pattern handle, I'm SWAGING about 1840 or so, cone nuts may make it a little latter.


----------



## kwigly

Looks like a top class saw with those plates and cone nuts. Francis Wood & Son, at 69 Henry St Sheffield, are listed in Simon Barley's book as 1898-1903


----------



## theoldfart

Well got that guess wrong!


----------



## Johnny7

> Well got that guess wrong!
> 
> - theoldfart


You're covered-you qualified yours as a SWAG.


----------



## Iban

Thanks everyone for the answers.



> Looks like a top class saw with those plates and cone nuts. Francis Wood & Son, at 69 Henry St Sheffield, are listed in Simon Barley s book as 1898-1903
> 
> - kwigly












I've found this ad from 1945 (or they say so).
And the company is on the 1943 list of allies military providers (patent for the folding trench saw).

I've also found this









Very similar to mine… Could the cone nuts and plates be added after purchase?

May be I can have more clues taking the handle apart


----------



## BlasterStumps

Hello saw world. I'm seeking advice on how to reattach a movable jaw on this Disston vise. I say "a" movable jaw because I don't have the original piece so I will have to fabricate something to replace it.



















Looks like this clamp had the thick jaw on the end of the screw not the thin washer like style I have seen on some. Some questions come to mind:

Would it work to drill a shallow hole in the end and then reinstall it and clamp down on something that would flair the tip again, ya think? I might have something in my junk that i could use that would be close to the size/shape of the original jaw.
Would it be better to try drilling the end and tapping for a screw to use to hold the jaw on? 
I don't have a welder : (, so tig welding it would only be an option if I can get it to someone with a welder. Note to self: Buy a doggone welder!
Would it be better just to remove the clamp portion of this old No. 2 vise and replace it with some angle iron and fasten it to something I can clamp in my bench vise?

Any help will be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Mike


----------



## bandit571

Go and look at a large c clamp….all you need to do is add a disc to the end of the bolt….maybe pin it onto the end

Or. go take a look at those hand cranked grinders….and maybe salvage a pad from one of them.


----------



## HokieKen

Your just missing the round "pad" like is on C-clamps Mike? Or is it something else?

If it's just that, if you have (or can make) a domed washer that fits over that diameter, you should be able to peen that end over enough to retain it. I imagine you can peen it cold but if that doesn't work well, a torch should help.


----------



## Lazyman

Some of the shop made bar clamps are made using a wooden pad. You might look at how some of them are made for ideas.


----------



## drsurfrat

As often as you might use a saw vice, maybe just a hard piece of wood. That tip will bite in, and certainly hold against your bench. Then you won't be tempted to destroy that cool wing screw while you find a suitable end piece.

Here's my Disston ball joint vise:


----------



## bandit571

Something like this…









As used on a hand cranked grinder…


----------



## BlasterStumps

The trick is going to be in peening it because it is going to be close quarters and it is covered by the wide top part that sits on the table top. Not a whole lot of space. Can't get to it to hit with anything.


----------



## BlasterStumps

thanks for the pictures guys. that helps, maybe I can fashion something close to what your vise has.


----------



## HokieKen

I see now Mike. I'd probably drill into the tip with a center drill so it had a thin wall at the top but with the tapered hole. Then put the washer on and screw it into a plate with a steel ball in the tip to deform it. Hopefully that makes some sense…


----------



## BlasterStumps

Yes Kenny, I think you are right. That should work. I just need to find a piece that will work as a jaw. Went thru some of my junk and came up empty. Now is when I wished I had a metal lathe. : ). Note to self: Buy a doggone metal lathe!


----------



## BlasterStumps

thought of that too. This little vise needs a substantial clamp to keep it from walking around while you are sharpening. Either has to be something close to original or just remove the whole clamp assembly and bolt it to metal. Thanks, I will look into what they are doing with the bar clamps.


> Some of the shop made bar clamps are made using a wooden pad. You might look at how some of them are made for ideas.
> 
> - Lazyman


----------



## BlasterStumps

ugh…Its on there but if you look close you can see that the pin seems very brittle and little pieces broke off as I tried to flair it. Took it real gentle and decided to stop at what you see. It should be enough to keep the little dished washer on. Not real pretty and certainly not as robust as I would have liked. Oh well…



















Thanks again for all the advice and pictures you all shared.


----------



## drsurfrat

That looks perfectly functional. Just like your tagline.


----------



## HokieKen

Looks to me like it will work just fine Mike


----------



## BlasterStumps

I think that cupped washer is out of a 7200 Volt lightning arrester that had been hit by lightning and blew up. : )


----------



## DLK

Way to save parts that you are not sure you will ever need and then find a use for them.


----------



## bandit571

Looks good to me!


----------



## BlasterStumps

All that is left to do now that I have that clamp fixed, besides give the vise a good clean, is to paint it grass green, right?


----------



## drsurfrat

Are you gonna drag it behind your ol' John Deere?


----------



## bandit571

Chanced upon a couple saws today..









Some were more of a tripping hazard…









Some needed a bit of work..and…









That one was, I think, $45? hope it was sharp..

And..









There are 2 vises sitting here…









And…









A saw vise….

Was a LONG day, today…feet are hurting…


----------



## BlasterStumps

I would have had to stop and give that bench vise a good look over. Didn't look mis-used or abused. What was the saw sharpening vise, a Disston or Sargent, or? Looked like a D3


----------



## donwilwol

Here you go @RWE

Any information?

https://www.timetestedtools.net/community/vintage-hand-saw-discussions/dearborn-hand-saw/

I can't find much (really I can't find anything) on this saw. It's likely a Hardware store brand.

The etch reads

DEARBORN

EXTRA SPRING STEEL ~PATENT TEMPER

THE BEST IS THE CHEAPEST


----------



## RWE

It is an interesting saw for sure. I would guess it is a between the Wars time period saw. Hardware Store brand. Handles got a square thing going on after the 40's-50's and the Dearborn has the nicer sculpted look.

Some manufacturer made it for Dearborn, so the only way to figure it out would be to see if Disston, Bishop or some other brand had a similar looking handle and style, medallion placement etc.

Thanks for checking.


----------



## bandit571

Might be an Atkins made saw?

Disston did make a line of saws, where they would custom etch for the customer….like a Hardware store.


----------



## Johnny7

> Here you go @RWE
> 
> Any information?
> 
> The etch reads
> 
> DEARBORN
> 
> EXTRA SPRING STEEL ~PATENT TEMPER
> 
> THE BEST IS THE CHEAPEST
> 
> - Don W


George Bishop made a Dearborn handsaw, a skewback, model 109.


----------



## RWE

Bishop makes sense. I have one Bishop saw and it has a similar look.

I have what is probably a Bishop Oriole saw that was rebranded as a "Tip Top". It has the same etch as an Oriole, but has the words TIP TOP at the top where Oriole is written. I have only found one link about on the internet, on Sawmill Creek.

I just checked it again. Sawmill Creek has some updated info that says the TIP TOP was a Bishop 103, that is new info since I researched it over a year ago.

*Johnny 7:*
There was no 109 or 103 listed in the site linked above. Do you have a site that shows info on the Dearborn. It may have something on my mystery TIP TOP saw.

Etch is hard to see, but it is exactly like the Oriole etch. The TIP TOP is a panel saw and is the somewhat rare 12 PPI.


----------



## Johnny7

> *Johnny 7:*
> There was no 109 or 103 listed in the site linked above. Do you have a site that shows info on the Dearborn. It may have something on my mystery TIP TOP saw.
> 
> - RWE


No website-the information I provided can be found in Erv Schaffer's book "Hand-saw makers of North America"-and unfortunately that is all it provided.


----------



## Kilravn

I just realized this thread was here. Maybe my post should have been posted here?

Anyway, would any of you guys mind checking out my other post about my Disston Nest of saws and give me any advice you may have

I've caught the hand saw bug and I've been doing pretty good on my collection. Besides saws, ive found a lot of other cool stuff like 4 or 5 saw vices, filing guides, jointers, a while bunch of sets, and a literally ass ton if saw files. Lol. I love this stuff


----------



## KentInOttawa

> I just realized this thread was here. Maybe my post should have been posted here?
> 
> Anyway, would any of you guys mind checking out my other post about my Disston Nest of saws and give me any advice you may have
> 
> I ve caught the hand saw bug and I ve been doing pretty good on my collection. Besides saws, ive found a lot of other cool stuff like 4 or 5 saw vices, filing guides, jointers, a while bunch of sets, and a literally ass ton if saw files. Lol. I love this stuff
> 
> - Brandon


Some photos, either here (preferable for a wider audience) or on your other thread, will elicit a greater response.


----------



## Kilravn

Here's a couple. I thought I added them on my other post but must've did it wrong. I have more pics but these are the ones I could get under 5mb real quick


----------



## drsurfrat

You may already know, but the Disstonian Institute has lots of info.


----------



## Johnny7

> Anyway, would any of you guys mind checking out my other post about my Disston Nest of saws and give me any advice you may have
> 
> - Brandon


Your saw appears to date from the 1878-88 time period, judging from the "Philada" medallion version.
Here's a reproduction of a page from an 1875 Disston pamphlet showing your saw.


----------



## Kilravn

> You may already know, but the Disstonian Institute has lots of info.
> 
> - drsurfrat


I thought that I've checked on there without much luck, but I could be mistaken. I'll check again. Thank you



> Anyway, would any of you guys mind checking out my other post about my Disston Nest of saws and give me any advice you may have
> 
> - Brandon
> 
> Your saw appears to date from the 1878-88 time period, judging from the "Philada" medallion version.
> Here s a reproduction of a page from an 1875 Disston pamphlet showing your saw.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Johnny7


That there is the "Plumbers Nest of Saws" which only comes with 3 saw plates, mine has 6. I'm pretty sure my set came with all 6 originally because the case had an individually sized slot for each. Thanks for the info though. I appreciate the help


----------



## drsurfrat

> ... I love this stuff
> - Brandon


Understood.

I have an extra miter box if you don't have that yet


----------



## kwigly

The 1919 catalog shows the No.101 saw kit with 6 blades (you could also get 5, 4, or 3 blade kits)


----------



## Johnny7

> The 1919 catalog shows the No.101 saw kit with 6 blades (you could also get 5, 4, or 3 blade kits)
> 
> - kwigly


That is a different model entirely-check the OP's handle in photos above.


----------



## kwigly

> That is a different model entirely-check the OP s handle in photos above.
> 
> - Johnny7


Disston may have produced earlier versions of this saw set with the OP's handle style. Or, it may be that the OP has an older style handle with a newer set of blades (Pictures of the six blade set and the blade etches could help, as dating the style and etch on the blades might indicate if the blades are from a different time than the handle's medallion).


----------



## Johnny7

> That is a different model entirely-check the OP s handle in photos above.
> 
> - Johnny7
> 
> Disston may have produced earlier versions of this saw set with the OP s handle style. Or, it may be that the OP has an older style handle with a newer set of blades (Pictures of the six blade set and the blade etches could help, as dating the style and etch on the blades might indicate if the blades are from a different time than the handle s medallion).
> 
> - kwigly


agreed


----------



## Kilravn

> ... I love this stuff
> - Brandon
> 
> Understood.
> 
> I have an extra miter box if you don t have that yet
> 
> - drsurfrat


Yes, I would be interested in a miter box. Thanks



> The 1919 catalog shows the No.101 saw kit with 6 blades (you could also get 5, 4, or 3 blade kits)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - kwigly


Thank you. I couldn't find them in my 1911 catalog



> The 1919 catalog shows the No.101 saw kit with 6 blades (you could also get 5, 4, or 3 blade kits)
> 
> - kwigly
> 
> That is a different model entirely-check the OP s handle in photos above.
> 
> - Johnny7





> That is a different model entirely-check the OP s handle in photos above.
> 
> - Johnny7
> 
> Disston may have produced earlier versions of this saw set with the OP s handle style. Or, it may be that the OP has an older style handle with a newer set of blades (Pictures of the six blade set and the blade etches could help, as dating the style and etch on the blades might indicate if the blades are from a different time than the handle s medallion).
> 
> - kwigly


That's the handle that came with them when I got them. No way of telling if it originally came with the set.


----------



## drsurfrat

Brandon, sent you a PM


----------



## DLK

I just read Retoothing any Saw - from Paul Sellers' Blog and found
this remark interesting.

Filing down to the bottoms of such deep gullets is too much so I used the grinder which took only a few steady passes to remove them completely. .

Has anyone tried using a grinder to completely remove saw teeth. I have always used a file, but I can see for a particularly bad case that a grinder would indeed be faster. I wonder if a simple jig could be made that would keep the saw aligned when grinding. Note Paul the saw paul is retoothing is a short saw for his 3 year old granddaughter. I wonder how easy it would be to grind a long saw.


----------



## RWE

I would think that you could just grind free hand and be careful to be consistent. Then use a long bastard file to joint the edge true. There will probably be some curvature in the middle of the plate, but jointing with a long file will work fairly quickly.

Using a guide that you make out of wood will work, but you have to make the guide kerfs very consistently. I tried that and did not have good results.

One alternative is to buy a hack saw blade that has the correct PPI that you are trying for. You could get a hack saw blade that is very fine and skip a tooth to get your desired PPI. Also, you could buy a saw plate from Blackburn or some other source and use it for you template. All of those plates just have the PPI in them but are not refined or useable, so they make good guides. A hacksaw blade is the easiest option if you can match the PPI.

If you use the hacksaw blade, you clamp it to your target plate in your saw vise and just make a slight cut to mark the valley of you tooth. In other words, the hack saw blade has to be elevated enough to just allow the valley to be cut. You may have to use a finer file. (I remember that Paul has you use a hack saw to mark the PPI pattern and this will work with a hack saw blade as well, just get the valley at the right depth for the hacksaw you cut with to be able to make a kerf.) Once you have those marks, you are back to business as usual. Just incrementally deepen the teeth very consistently until you have the whole row done, rinse and repeat until your final shapening.


----------



## bandit571

Clamp into the saw vise, bottom of the gullets at the top edge of the vise's jaws…angle grinder to remove the teeth, repeat as needed for the length of the saw plate…THEN file/joint…


----------



## DLK

*RWE* for tooth parters I use the blackburn templates. and a needle file to mark the plate. The wood guide also did not work for me.

I have always removed the teeth with a long flat file. It had not occurred to me that a grinder would work.
I was wondering if the grinder would work well for long saws. My question was how to make grinding precise.
I have not considered an angle grinder.


----------



## RWE

> *RWE* for tooth parters I use the blackburn templates. and a needle file to mark the plate. The wood guide also did not work for me.
> 
> I have always removed the teeth with a long flat file. It had not occurred to me that a grinder would work.
> I was wondering if the grinder would work well for long saws. My question was how to make grinding precise.
> I have not considered an angle grinder.
> 
> - Combo Prof


Well I guess you and I are on the same page then. I was not sure of what experience you had with the whole process. I was so impressed with Bob Summerfield's "Table Saws" (tapered Gent saws that could cut the curvature of a large oval table, hence the name) that I undertook to buy raw plate and tooth them using the Seller's method. I did not like the wooden guide or the hacksaw method to mark the PPI. So I used the hacksaw blade and a saw file to mark the teeth. I was going to make a series of those saws as presents, so I kept the first marked plate as a guide for the rest of them. Stalled out and have not gotten back to them yet.

I think Bandit is correct. I would put a thin sheet of ply in the saw vise as a bottom line to work to, so that you don't grind to your vise and damage it, and grind away with the angle grinder. You might could mark a Sharpie line on the plate as well and get close enough. Seems that would work well as long as you don't dig a divot somewhere. The angle grinder is a new tool to me, at least for the last 3 or 4 years and I think with the correct wheel and grit it would work very well. You can control them very well and the bastard is not hard to use to joint the line as long as you are close.

I hate jigs and I would not want to bother to create a jig to get the plate jointed on a grinder perfectly. If you invent one, share it.


----------



## DLK

Well Paul says you don't need a jig. I may give it a try. have an idea for simple jig, but someday in the distance future I may get time to try it. Busy with home repairs and mathematics now.


----------



## RonB57

Good morning. Haven't been around much, but I can assure you I am still kicking. ( I think )
Back in May of 2016 I posted a resin infused dovetail saw in maple burl. Or maybe that was on another forum. I forget. I went on a binge and infused numerous maple burl blanks as well as some bog oak I plan to make a set out of. I learned the hard way not to expose your hands to the stabilizing acrylic, but at least I accumulated quite a few blanks over the last few years. Of course, now my custom 40 gallon vacuum tank sits idle. ( for now)  So since then I made several half backs , dovetails and carcass saws from that batch. So just another maple burl half back and carcass saw in maple. Of course, I had to make myself a new dovetail saw.  











































Ok. Time to get back to the work in my shop and house.


----------



## RWE

Ron:

Beautiful saws. I am thinking about making a new dovetail saw with the variable pitch (Ron Cosman style) teeth.

When you do the resin on the wood, do you have to have the handle finished? Or can you infuse the resin and then work the shape into the blank?


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Amazing work Ron! Stunners!


----------



## Mosquito

Very nice Ron. I've got a few saws on my list to make myself as well. If they're half as nice, I'm be happy lol

Thanks again for helping source those custom foley ratchet bars too, by the way. I've used it a couple times and I'm glad you could help some of us out with that


----------



## bearkatwood

Beautiful work Ron. 40 gallon is a great capacity. I think my tank is 1.5- 2 gallons. I had a lot of trouble getting things just right and maintaining strong material for handles. Always a big fan Ron, good to see you posting again.


----------



## RonB57

RWE,
You absolutely should infuse the wood before shaping the handle. The process warps the wood. I generally start out with a thicker piece than I need then size it after it has sat a few days. 
Brian,
I modified a large pressure tank to put those 12" pieces for mallets in and any thing fairly long. I don't think I have ever had more than 8 gallons or so of resin in it at one time. That cost was enough. One mallet would take up between a pint and quart of resin. The 6" tubes allow me to color a small amount without coloring the entire batch of resin. 
















Just sold this little guy to help pay for a new 50 ton press, that still needs to be modified. Thought I would try to make a few stainless folded backs. 








This 18" is just a proto type of sorts. Made it a couple of years ago, but never finished shaping the handle etc. It just hung around the shop on the back burner. Finally found a gun smith that is willing to properly blu the backs for me. So I'll be making a few steel backs, hopefully. I will most likely stay with slotted brass as far as brass backs are concerned. 








My biggest issue right now is getting the bench top mill I was wanting. Always either sold out or on back order.
Would love to have an Axiom CNC but the lack of space and lack of use it would get makes it hard to pay for and justify. Always something it seems.


----------



## bearkatwood

That's a heck of a tank. I have an axiom and had wanted a small mill as well, something I could Mill backs with and perhaps use coolant. The CNC does a decent job, but heats up quick. 
Look forward to seeing how the stainless goes.


----------



## Thedustydutchman

Picked up this weird little guy this weekend.


----------



## EricFai

I would have to say that someone needed to get into a tight area to make a cut. Interesting though.


----------



## Thedustydutchman

Whoever cut it did a great job, it looks 100% factory done. This was in a box of stuff I got. Just thought it was interesting


----------



## KentInOttawa

A somewhat local to me (Ottawa, Can) estate sale is listing a Foley Automatic Sharpener and an Automatic Retoother for under CAD$600 (US$470), and the seller states that they're willing to ship. The photos look good and there are a number of bars as well. Is anyone interested? (FYI-the ads disappear when the seller removes them).


----------



## bandit571

D-100…just a D-8 with a fancy, carved handle?









Yet cuts Ash like butter…









And..once you grab ahold of that handle..









You just don't want to let go….

Readable etch…the "100" is inside of the "D"....


----------



## bigblockyeti

> A somewhat local to me (Ottawa, Can) estate sale is listing a Foley Automatic Sharpener and an Automatic Retoother for under CAD$600 (US$470), and the seller states that they re willing to ship. The photos look good and there are a number of bars as well. Is anyone interested? (FYI-the ads disappear when the seller removes them).
> 
> - Kent


I've wondered about getting a sharpener, there's a Foley model 1200 1/2 hour from me for under $100 but I don't know if it's a good deal? I don't believe it's fully automatic either.


----------



## HokieKen

If it's got all the parts, it's worth it BBY. I don't know anything about the 1200 specifically but I know it's worth more than that.


----------



## bigblockyeti

I looked at some videos of what's identified as an automatic 1200, this one looks similar but it's either not fully automatic or parts are missing. I might do a bit more research then take a drive to see it in person. I'm really hoping to find a grinder instead of a filer that is can convert to sharpen sawmill bands. I'm halfway through my box I bought with the mill and have no one locally that can sharpen them for me. Shipping them to and fro the nearest Wood-Mizer facility plus the cost of the actual sharpening will equal the price of new blades picked up at their facility.


----------



## Mosquito

I've got a 387 automatic filer. I have much better success running it manually than off the motor. I struggle to get it set up right, and end up occasionally skipping teeth when running it off the motor (not a huge deal for rip, but a great way to screw up a crosscut saw lol)

I've ended up with 2 automatic retoothers, and I use those more often than the filer. Hand sharpening doesn't bother me, but hand-re-toothing does lol


----------



## donwilwol

I've recently published a book you Simmonds guys may be interested in

https://www.timetestedtools.net/books-3/the-simonds-manufacturing-co-publications-catalog-cuts-of-hand-saw-sections-1904-1923/


----------



## bandit571

Yard sale find, today…









$1 for the saw….a 26" long, 5-1/2ppi Rip saw…medallion says "Nicholson" USA









Will need a bit of cleaning up….seems to be still sharp…despite the hanger hole in the toe..

So…when did Nicholson sell saws? Made in USA?


----------



## rad457

20 some pages to find thread!
Found a Old Canadian Beauty, 28" 5 tpi light cleaning and some more work to be done to fine tune sharpening?
Took a bit of time to chew through 2 1/2" of Birch.


----------



## EricFai

Nice little saw, and it looks pretty good for its age.


----------



## KentInOttawa

That's a beautiful saw, Andre. I believe that it's the only one that I've seen with the maple leaf medallion AND the 1887 patent. Very cool. I wish that I could find some saws with such strong etches.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Beautiful chip carving on that handle Andre. I tried that type of carving. It's not easy to make one look like that. I know there is a method by where they can automate the carving. That handle has such even carving that it might have been done by machine.


----------



## enjuneer

> Yard sale find, today…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So…when did Nicholson sell saws? Made in USA?
> 
> - bandit571


Borg Warner bought E.C. Atkins in 1952 and continued to make saws under the Atkins name. In 1966, Nicholson File Co. bought the Atkins Division and made saws under their own name. Made in the USA, though the quality was not as good as in the early years.

-Bob Page


----------



## bandit571

In use, this morning..


----------



## kwigly

Saw looks great condition Andre. That medallion dates approx 1900-1910 (earlier ones were recessed, later ones omit that patent). Looks like a model No. 81


----------



## donwilwol

This was posted on facebook and I thought I would post it here since Erik florip has been a active participant here, and I'm pretty sure this is were him and I started talking tools quite some time ago.

After 10 days of migraines, Erik went in to get treated for Lyme disease, but instead doctors found a brain tumor that needed immediate surgery. Erik has made it through surgery and is in good spirits, but the road to recovery is going to be a long one, which means Erik, the owner and sole operator at Florip Toolworks, isn't going to be able to be in the shop making tools to support his family for a while. But together we can help ease the financial burdens he and @templeleigh are facing as he recovers. If you feel led to help, follow the link.

https://www.gofundme.com/f/erik-florip-family...


----------



## theoldfart

Thanks for posting Don.


----------



## DavePolaschek

Thanks for posting that, Don. Was using my Florip half-back just the other day.


----------



## bigblockyeti

I saw it the other day at ~$7,500 of $30,000 goal and now it's over $35,000 of a $40,000 goal so it looks like the message has gotten out to many people who are able to help.


----------



## theoldfart

The goal has been moving however Eric's recovery is going to a longer process. They just posted that he's been diagnosed brain cancer so I'm guessing he's headed for chemo and radiation. Check out the go fund me website for more info. Maybe Todd will have something to say to clarify what's happening.


----------



## bandit571

Ok…once a "Kerf Kutter" had done it's job..









Still had about 1" right down the center to saw…so…









Saw about this far down….









Then flip the board around, and finish the cut…..

Saw is a Disston Rip saw, 5-1/2 ppi, 28" length…the "8" is inside of the "D"

Handle is comfy, still a Cardio Workout….board is 5-3/8" wide, by 39-1/2" long….
Results?









A little clean up with a plane, good to go…


----------



## KentInOttawa

It will be quite a while before my technique is that good Bandit. Well done.


----------



## Mosquito

Picked up a neat saw set, adding to the Otis A Smith collection. This one may get used a fair bit, if it works well. It's comfortable to use, good leverage, and had an adjustable side guage to get the next point under the anvil easily


----------



## EricFai

That is cool Mos, I have never seen one.


----------



## RWE

I really like the side gauge feature. I have never seen one like that either. If you run into another one in the wild, scoop it up and send it my way.

Do you have a URL with info on that set? With that sharp anvil it should work on higher PPI saws it would seem.

Seems there is always something new/unseen out there.


----------



## RWE

Got the infamous double post issue. Sorry.


----------



## Mosquito

It was first made in 1912, and cost $1 back in the day, that's about it at this point lol


----------



## garethmontreal

It's been quite a while since posted on L.J. I hope to do more updates here on my shop and tool collection (addiction). I like saws especially early British saws. And if you like early British saws I think you'll find this post interesting. It seems like ive managed to find an answer to at least one mystery/question about early British saws. the Sykes in Kenyon Sykes and co. Is indeed William Sykes. Ive been in contact with Simon Barley (the Man the Legend I definitley do not speek for him) and he seems to agree with my findings
Published: 22nd Apr 1826
Newspaper: Sheffield Independent
On Wednesday last, Mr. Wm. Sykes, formerly of the firm of Kenyon, Sykes. and Co. saw-makers, Bridgehouses, aged 70. His kindness to his workmen, three of whom have been in his employ upwards of 40 years, his integrity in business, and honest pride in manufacturing a good article, have procured him the esteem and respect of all who knew him.
Aside from confirming his being the Sykes in Kenyon, Sykes. and Co some other things that stood out to me as being quite significant were the fact that he had not only been making saws since at least 1786 but he had been employing men apparently that long when he was no more than 30 years old.
The earliest record definitely link Kenyon & co to the wicker that i found is a map from 1778









laying out the the proposed steel works in the wicker of Thomas Wilde and John Walker (John Walker and co are listed in the 1787 sheffield directory as steel refiners)
Sheffield Independent - Saturday 21 July 1827
Wednesday, at his house, Red Hill, in the 81st year of his age, Mr. Thomas Wild[e], of the firm of Kenyon and Wild, merchants and manufacturers of this place. was most exemplary in all the varied talations of life, and his death will regretted.
Published: 10th Nov 1827
Newspaper: Sheffield Independent
TO BE SOLD BY PRIVATE CONTRACT, VALUABLE FREEHOLD ESTATE, in Willey Street, Wicker. adjoining (the River Dun, with Buildings thereon, which have been occupied as Saw Manufactory, containing an area of 1,308 square yards. Also Valuable FREEHOLD ESTATE, with Three Dwelling Houses, and an Extensive Building which is well adapted for Manufactory or Warehouse, and other Buildings thereon, containing an area of 2,400 square yards. This property fronts, vir. the Cattle Market, Stanley Steeet. and Wicker Lane, and is very finely situate as building land for shops. These two Estates ate also well adapted for large Manufactories whereon steam engines might erected, being well supplied with water. Also the CLIFF GRINDING WHEEL FREEHOLD PROPERTY, on the River Loxley, with machinery, Weir Washes, &c. and Head and Fall of Water 12 feet inches; and Land adjoining, la. 2b. Up, For particulars enquire of Mr. C. Appleby, Meacrs. Walker, Wilde, and Co.'a Steel Works, Wicker; Mr. Oabdnbr, at Messrs. John Kenyon and Co.'s, Hollis Croft.
And Finally I found an excerpt of Thomas Wildes will posted by one of his descendants, Mathew Wilde, on https://www.sheffieldhistory.co.uk/forums/index.php I I found a full copy of the will but I am having a hard times reading the script its 3 full pages. Here is the excerpt below
"I give and bequeath unto Henry Thorp Skelton and John Kenyon Skelton the two sons of my partner Joseph Dixon Skelton at their respective ages of twenty three years the legacy or Sum of Five hundred pounds apiece". (The historic currency converter on the National Archives website says that "In 1830, £500 0s 0d would have the same spending worth of 2005's £24,745.00".)

The testator was Thomas Wilde (1747-1827), and his will was proved in York and Canterbury in 1828. Thomas had married Mary Scholey (1753-1830), and the couple were childless. (Very useful, the wills of childless rich uncles!) I've found Thomas's jobs as Collier, then Filesmith, then "Merchant and Manufacturer". He left his house at Red Hill to his wife, for her life, and then to his nephew Samuel Gardner (one of the three executors). Financial bequests totalled over twenty thousand pounds, as well as land including "Close of Land situtate near Jerich [sic - presumably Jericho] in Sheffield aforesaid which I purchased of his Grace the Duke of Norfolk".

Also mentioned are interests in three concerns: John Kenyon & Co, Walker & Wilde, and Appleby, Walker & Co - all at Renishaw. Also: "the mark 'J. K' held by me of the Corporation of Cutlers in Hallamshire" 
Bequests by this Thomas Wilde include "unto Henry Thorp Skelton and John Kenyon Skelton the two Sons of my partner Joseph Dixon Skelton at their respective ages of twenty three years the legacy or Sum of Five hundred pounds apiece".
Among many other bequests (helpfully naming many nieces and nephews) was an annuity to Thomas's wife "payable in equal proportions out of the three several Copartnerships of John Kenyon and Company Walker and Wilde and Appleby Walker & Company wherein I am concerned at Sheffield aforesaid and at Renishaw in the County of Derby" - which gives some indication of where his money came from.This Thomas Wilde was half-brother to my 4xgreat-grandfather, being one of the twelve children of Robert Wilde (c1710-1786 - who had three wives)


----------



## RWE

Thanks for the post. I am working through a lot of history now concerning American molding (moulding) planes. I enjoy the history of the old tools as much as the tools themselves. Keep posting. Nice read.


----------



## Force10

So, I've been playing around with new ideas for backs, So far as i can see, there's basically only ever been, folded, slotted and on a lesser scale, laminated backs untill more recently Shane Skelton has come up with some rather excellent spring tension designs. I like how slotted backs look and feel but dislike the inability to adjust them if you warp a plate, I fancied having a go at something i'd not seen before, This is what i came up with, the back is slotted both sides and the screws act make it act as a hinged clamp. In use it has charecteristics of both a slotted backed saw and a folded backed saw. It was a bit of a pain to make but i'm glad i did, I've got a few more ideas for adjustable back designs that i intend to try and make happen as and when i get a chance. I'd be keen to find out if any of you folk have played about with alternative back designs.


----------



## bandit571

Used to be a Saw sharpening service in Piqua, OH…..until Chuck's health went bad….a fellow named Eddie bought all of Chuck's machinery…for his own sharpening service…just north of Piqua, OH. took 3 saws down to him today…45 miles each way….only to find out Eddie has yet to learn HOW to use those machines to sharpen a hand saw…..Grrrrrr.

Will keep looking…

The 8ppi D8 I MIGHT be able to sharpen….but NOT the 11ppi No.4 Mitre box saw, nor the 12 ppi D8…..Currently using a D100 and a D8 Rip (thumbhole) and a I have 2 spare No. 4 (5" x 28")....so..no real rush…


----------



## donwilwol

Did we loose some post?


----------



## bandit571

Might have...
as for a saw..found this thing, for $2..








It followed me home..so..








Gave it a good cleaning, and a refresh of the teeth...logo on the spine says this is a Jackson....warranted..cast steel...








Not too bad, for $2?


----------



## bandit571

Of the 2 saws in that Green Tub the other day...








The 26" HK Porter thing was tossed out. Plate was not worth the effort to straighten out, resharpen. Handle was plywood, that was de-laminating...
As for the Stanley..was made BEFORE they impulse harden the teeth..I had enough spare bolts to attach the handle properly..need to fix a crack, though..









May keep this around to break down Construction Lumber..








And save my "good" saws for better stuff?

There were 2 good saw blades in that tub..








Might come in handy...maybe even on my 8" tablesaw, when I am cutting thin parts for the boxes I make..








And...this one has never even been used....

There were other special saws in that tub...more a matter of just replacing their blades...

These were the keeper wood saws from that $10 plastic tub...


----------



## bandit571

BTW...that hammer hanging in the tub? Is a Capewell 1881 Curved claw hammer...feels like it might be a 20oz size...cleaned up nicely enough..








Looks like that "Carpenter" used the sides of the hammer a lot....handle is solid...no other damage found...cleaned it up, and wiped the head down with a bit of 3in1 oil...


----------



## bandit571

Well, back to present day. 2 saws were in use, today....along with a tablesaw...








Disston D-100...with the "100" inside of the "D" in the etch....Had to cut a plank down into parts...before the tablesaw could act as a kerf cutter....then another Disston got put to work...








Disston D8 ( no hyphen) Rip saw, with the thumbhole handle...and 5-1/2ppi...








Needed to resaw a bunch of parts....had to be careful when I got down this far in the cut.....








As it is hard to see where the cut from the other end...stops...it might leave a mark on the vise's wood jaws...


----------



## KentInOttawa

A few weeks back I acquired a couple of apple chunks from a buddy. After I split them once, I planed the split face somewhat smooth and set them aside.








Today, I pulled out mt 4.5 PPI Shurley & Dietrich to resaw some 5/4 slabs from the split log pieces. The saw is pretty much as I got it, and the plate was pretty rough.








I applied a bit of Autosol to the plate to clean it up a bit, and then began resawing, I worked from both sides and both ends towards the middle. 








It was a lot of work, but I finally got through it. All the sawing also cleaned the plate some more. I figure that with a little more restoration and three more rips on these apple pieces, I might even be able to read the etch. 








My technique needs some more work, and it will get some with the next three cuts. I'll need to sharpen this saw before I do that. Still, a few swipes with a #5 and this slab is ready for stickering and drying.


----------



## bandit571

A very different sort of rip cut..








Starts at each corner...then..








Connect the corners on the ends of the box...both ends done? Then lay the box on a side..








saw down until all the way through this side..add a saw plate to keep this kerf open. Then flip the box over, and saw the other side..and try NOT to hit the shim....hard on saw teeth...results?








The saw is just an older Disston No. 4, 14", 9ppi Back saw....filed RIP. Close that lid!








Tomorrow, a handplane will level out the saw joint...and get things ready for hinges...


----------



## HokieKen

Good stuff Kent and Bandit!


----------



## Lazyman

Rather than starting a new topic to ask this question (or try to find an old topic discussing this in the new search feature) it is time to wake this thread up again. I am planning to get myself a good dovetail saw. I do not think that I want to buy a vintage one that I have to restore. If I find one on eBay that doesn't look like it needs to be restore, I do not want to add any other variables or risk getting a dull saw and having that be one more factor to figure out while learning to cut good dovetails. So I have narrowed it down to Veritas, Lie-Neilsen and Rob Cosman's DT saws.

The Veritas is the least expensive by more than half but the modern look and materials sort of bugs me, One review that compared it to the LN saw said the LN was better in their opinion but maybe not twice as good. The LN and RC saws both have a similar traditional look that appeals to me and both are priced closely enough that price is not much of a factor. In his own videos at least, the RC appears to work exceptionally well. I like the idea of the finer teeth at the front but without hands on one, it is difficult to know if that is a gimmick or a useful feature. I noticed that RC has some seconds on his website for about $50 off ($200). Most of the examples appear to be dings in the side of the blade but some are simply engraving mistakes in the brass back. They claim that the issues are all cosmetic but I can see that a ding could be annoying if it catches in a thin kerf. 

I looked at Bad Axe but you have to leave an nonrefundable deposit ($100) to get on the list with no scheduled delivery date that I can tell so that is not really an option as far as I am concerned. It seems like they have had some pretty long backlogs in the past and were even out of commission for a while. Besides, I want it now? 

Are there any other options I should consider that are comparable or superior to the 3 currently on my short list? 

I appreciate any opinions you may have. What are you guys using?


----------



## HokieKen

If you aren’t experienced in sharpening and tuning a saw, going new is a good choice. Even for experienced sharpeners, the tiny teeth on dt saws can be a challenge. I have heard very good things about all 3 but haven’t ever used any of them. I agree about the Veritas though, I find it less than appealing. Of the three, I’d probably be most tempted by the RC one. You might add the Gramercy to your list too. Though it’s still far from cheap too.








The Gramercy Tools 9" Dovetail Saw


We took lessons from history to make a great dovetail saw that's perfect for beginners and professionals alike. Hand made and filed for a smooth rip cutting




toolsforworkingwood.com





My DT saw is from The Fridge and I would recommend it but as far as I know, he isn’t making them anymore. And he’s pretty scarce around the site for the last couple years.


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## bandit571

I have a Disston No. 4, 14", 9ppi....and a Disston No.68 at 9ppi.....and use them both...A LOT.


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## DavePolaschek

Lazyman said:


> I am planning to get myself a good dovetail saw.


I do not have a LN dovetail saw, but I have the Veritas and the Rob Cosman. They’re both nice. The Veritas seconds sale a week or two ago had dinged ones for $89, IIRC. If I didn’t already have three, I would’ve bought another. Wish I’d known you were thinking about it, I would’ve pointed it out.

The Veritas can be had with a wood handle, and with their handle system, it’s pretty easy to replace. The Cosman comes only with a composite handle, AFAIK. Both cut well, but the Veritas wins on price. But it cannot really be repaired if you kink the blade (which is harder to do because of the composite back). But buying two for the price of a Cosman…

The Bad Axe Stiletto is nice, and the longer plate means faster cutting. But Mark’s backlog is tough to deal with instant-gratification-wise. And he’s even less cheap.

I also have a Bearkat and umm… one other LJ saw, plus a couple specialty saws from Bob Summerfield. If Brian has any saws left in his stock, make him an offer. They cut.

If you’re looking for a vintage one, Bob was my go-to guy. But buying any half-decent backsaw on eBay, you can get one that you can make into a long-term user. I’ve sniped a couple that were BIN for $50 or so and no bids with a last-minute bid of $20-ish. Look for ones with crappy pictures and no brand names and take a chance. Sharpening will set you back more than the cost of the saw. The ones with plastic medallions are usually a bargain.

So… simplest would be a Veritas. A Cosman would be a small step up, but a fair whack more money.

My next nice dovetail saw might be a Skelton Mallard. At £1350, it ain’t cheap, but with the pound being down at the moment, it’s more affordable than it has been for years. We’ll have to see what Santa thinks.


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## DavePolaschek

Veritas still shows the scratch and dent dovetail saws for USD62. Hard to beat that deal if you can actually still order one.


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## KentInOttawa

I have the Set of 3 Veritas Dovetail & Crosscut Saws as well as a few vintage saws (8-14" Disston, Shurley & Dietrich, Drabble and Sanderson, and Rob't Sorby). The Veritas set was good to go right out of the box and I can recommend them with the caveat that this set of three is quite limited in the depth of cut, so sooner or later you will be trying to cut a 2.5" tenon and wishing for more depth. Also, I find that the fine 20 TPI saw is so fine that it seems to cut too slowly for me. If I was doing more work with thin stock, I might use this saw more, but I don't so I don't.

I find that the older British saws cut well and have very comfortable handles and balance, making them a pleasure to use, but anything vintage may come with hidden flaws that the seller may or may not even be aware of. This makes them a somewhat risky first investment. There are some wonderful deals out there, but also some real thuds. This beauty set me back just $10 + S&H. 








Not as cheap but just as nice. Note that split-nut saws may or may not have tight handles and may or may not be able to be tightened.








My North American saws are all more recent (1890-1950?), and I find that the handles are not as nice, but they work well enough. The same caveats apply as with the vintage British saws.

















Any vintage saw can have kinks or bends, missing teeth and/or loose backs. Restoring them as a hobby can be quite enjoyable, but counting on an eBay purchase to arrive ready to use is pure folly.

There are also a lot of small manufacturers, including this one that I have no first-hand experience with.

My recommendation is to go with one or two Veritas saws to begin with and keep your eyes out for saws that "speak to you" after that. I find that 8-10" saws works well for 1/2-2" stock, so they should be good for most reasonably-sized tasks. Longer and larger saws have their place but are often not needed and their size makes them more cumbersome than need for most work..


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## KentInOttawa

WRT the Veritas 20 TPI saw, the factory seconds for it are still available.


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## DavePolaschek

Or if you’re more of a shotgunner, this collection from the UK looks worth the shipping if the bid doesn’t get too high. Looking through the photos, I figure there are three or four in there that would be good users after rehandling them and sharpening them up.


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## Lazyman

Hmm, sounds like I might need 7 or 8 of them to keep up with Dave , but I suspect that many who follow this thread might be in the same boat. 

20 TPI sound like it might be a little fine for everyday DTs, though perhaps it is a little easier for someone who is just starting down the dovetail a day path? 

I am seriously considering a Cosman second. Do you think that a defect like these would be annoying? 

















His seconds are still more than double a full price Veritas but I like the 20 TPI relaxed start with 14 TPI cut. Dave, do you think that works as advertised or do you even notice once you get better at cutting them?


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## DavePolaschek

I don’t notice the progressive teeth / relaxed start anymore, but I seldom start a cut with the tip of the saw. I start in the middle with the saw angled up, so it’s on the corner of the board, draw back until I feel a kerf form, then push forward, leveling the saw out so it’s cutting all the way across the board. If it’s not cutting smoothly, I’ll drop the handle and cut less of the thickness of the board for a partial stroke before going back towards level.

The 20tpi nose of the Cosman was helpful when I was starting out. And yes, the fine tooth 20tpi Veritas will be too fine for cutting 3/4 inch thick hardwoods, but it’ll work fine in pine or poplar, or 1/2 inch boards. I think my coarsest DT saw is 12tpi, and I use that for gang-cutting tails in a pair of 3/4 inch boards. I’ll use a 20tpi for 1/4-1/2 inch boards, or sometimes even a pair of 3/4 inch pine boards, but I’ve practiced some. And most of my saws are _sharp, _thanks to Bob.

edit to add: I don’t think I have _that_ many dovetail saws yet. Though there was one on the bench when this picture was taken, and I put another long one in on the right, so there are now 8 in this till.


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## DavePolaschek

Regarding the dings, I don’t think I would find them annoying, but eventually I’ll be sharpening up to that spot, and that might not be good. So I would think it would cut the life of the saw. Maybe not critically, but I would still think about it.


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## bandit571

A ding like that one is an easy fix.....BTDT


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## RyanGi

I can’t offer a ton to this, but I’ve got several of the Veritas saws. Pretty much the set of three, I just didn’t buy them all at once 😜. That said, I like them very much. They feel great in my hand, I like the progressive cut teeth (not that I always use them, but still…) and the price is right. I’m sure others with more experience might have a different take on it, but for the money I think they make a great saw. And if you don’t grab that factory second I might do it! I don’t know what I would do with two of them but it’s a great deal…


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## bandit571

Forgot to mention...I also have a 12" Jackson Backsaw...that could use a wee more set.....

Then, there is that Bishop No. 10..........flip of the wrist, it is a rip saw, flip of the wrist, it becomes a fine toothed cross cut saw....and has a "bar" to act as a depth stop for either sets of teeth.....


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## AMZ

Any saw you buy, if used, will need sharpening. Both LN and Tools for Working Wood sharpen their saws, to work as new, if your skill sets are not up to sharpening a DT saw.

Virtually all saws mentioned will cut. More importantly is which feels as an extension of your hand. Which is appropriate for the wood species you typically use. If you maintain your saws, you can tune them to your liking, if not, you’ll lean on whoever sharpens them.

One final note, be wary of internet fan boys, touting this saw over that saw. Through the years many boutique makers came on the scene with many flaming out as rapidly as they became the latest greatest. Vintage? Disston (Bandit’s Jackson is a Disston brand, unless very, very old), is great. Modern? For DT‘s, I‘d go with LN.


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## donwilwol

Hand Saws


All vintage saws offered here have been refurbished and hand-sharpened using traditional methods.




loonlaketoolworks.com





Bob is a member here as well


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## DavePolaschek

RyanGi said:


> And if you don’t grab that factory second I might do it! I don’t know what I would do with two of them but it’s a great deal…


Pretty sure they have a bunch of them left, but I’ll find out for sure when they ship the one I ordered last night. I checked, and I only have one 20tpi dovetail saw, and I’ve been sawing some of my thinner dovetails with a Crown Gent’s Saw thats 24tpi. (I also have its big brother which is 17tpi - the long-term plan is to see if I can put handles on them that are comfortable to use). Especially when I get down around ¼ inch thick stock, the finer teeth make the work easier, and the stock is so thin that a couple strokes of the saw still get me to depth.

As for what to do with two of them, have one sharp and in use, and one not so sharp and away getting sharpened. Last time I had dovetail saws getting sharpened, I had four of them away at once. One of these days I really need to start sharpening them myself, if only to avoid giving so much money to the USPS.


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## BMLEE

When restoring, how are you guys taking out an curve in the plate? I have a few older disstons where the plate has a slight bow, not kinked.


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## DavePolaschek

BMLEE, read this article on Retensioning a Saw Plate from Mark Harrell at Bad Axe. I’ve done that with a couple wavy saws with pretty good results. One badly bowed saw required retensioning the plate once, then waiting a week or so, then doing it again before it got completely straight, but it had probably been bowed for 40-50 years before I got it, so waiting a week or 10 days didn’t seem too bad.


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## BMLEE

DavePolaschek said:


> BMLEE, read this article on Retensioning a Saw Plate from Mark Harrell at Bad Axe. I’ve done that with a couple wavy saws with pretty good results. One badly bowed saw required retensioning the plate once, then waiting a week or so, then doing it again before it got completely straight, but it had probably been bowed for 40-50 years before I got it, so waiting a week or 10 days didn’t seem too bad.


Thank very much for this information and link! 

Ps, I see you are in Santa Fe. My wife and I spent a few years in ABQ and then Edgewood NM. I never could find a good wood supplier out there. We’re back home in NC now.


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## KentInOttawa

@BMLEE There are also 2 Paul Sellers videos (here and here) that show similar techniques to those that @DavePolaschek linked to.


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## DavePolaschek

BMLEE said:


> I see you are in Santa Fe. My wife and I spent a few years in ABQ and then Edgewood NM. I never could find a good wood supplier out there. We’re back home in NC now.


Alpine Builders Supply in Santa Fe is pretty good, but I haven’t found a good source of cheap Midwestern “utility lumber” (read as ‘poplar’) out here, and prices are a fair whack higher than what I was used to in Minnesota. Oh well. I’ve also gotten better about not wasting, so I guess it is what it is.


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## kiwigly2

Is Bob Summerfield still around ? He created an excellent "Saw Medallion Reference Guide" on his Lumberjocks blog, but I only get an error message when I try to access it now.


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## DavePolaschek

Bob Summerfield was answering email a while back, but his website has had some issues lately. Haven’t checked in with him recently, since all my saws are pretty sharp at the moment.


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## BlasterStumps

I had some new teeth cut in a few handsaws a few years back. A local shop put the plates thru his retoother. The process of going thru the retoother noticeably bent all of the plates. I was a bit miffed when I saw them and ended up just putting them aside. When I did look at them again about 6 months later, they had all straightened back out.


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## DavePolaschek

I just got notice that my 20tpi Veritas factory second dovetail saw shipped from Lee Valley this morning, so apparently the one-day sale went considerably more than one day. Glad I ended up ordering it. It’ll be nice to have a spare.


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## Lazyman

DavePolaschek said:


> Regarding the dings, I don’t think I would find them annoying, but eventually I’ll be sharpening up to that spot, and that might not be good. So I would think it would cut the life of the saw. Maybe not critically, but I would still think about it.


I know that you have been cutting a lot of dovetails. How often do you usually go before one needs sharpening? I know that is not the easiest to quantify so maybe the question is how many times have your saws be resharpened, since you started your bookshelf build?


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## DavePolaschek

I had four dovetail saws sharpened through the 70 bookcase boxes (in a year and change). I mostly build shop furniture from pine, which is pretty easy for cutting dovetails, but when I’m making boxes from thin exotics, the saws lose their sharpness quicker. But once they’re dull, I notice that even cutting pine, since it will mean a little more fuzz on the back size of the kerfs.

I’m probably six or more months away from building my saw-sharpening station, so I figure I’ll be sending a stack of dovetail saws up to Montana for resharpening at least once more before I try sharpening my own.


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## Lazyman

Thanks, Dave. 
I pulled the trigger -- two of them actually. I decided to try the Cosman DT saw but I also want to make some small boxes using dovetails too so went ahead and ordered the Veritas 20 TPI second.

EDIT to add: LV website still shows the seconds in stock so whoever it was thinking about getting a deal on the MFG second, they appear to still have some in stock.


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## Lazyman

My Veritas dovetail "second" came today. I had a hard time identifying why it was a second. For a few minutes I wondered if they just sent me one that was first quality because they ran out of seconds. 










Then I noticed this









 Other than that the saw is perfect.


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## DavePolaschek

Mine showed up yesterday, and was similarly good, Nathan.


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## HokieKen

I was catching up while sitting in the airport on Friday and put a Veritas seconds DT saw in my cart but didn't have time to check out. When I got home and pulled it up to pay for it on Saturday, it was no longer available online  Oh well, I didn't really need it. Just figured it would give me a second one so I could delay sharpening and keep cutting when one gets dull. But that would end up with me spending twice as long sharpening half as often since I'm an accomplished procrastinator when it comes to such chores. So it's probably for the best


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## Lazyman

Don't forget that LV usually has gift cards on sale around Thanksgiving for 10% off. If only I had the willpower to hold on to them for almost a year until the seconds sale happens...

Question for you sharpening experts: I have never sharpened a saw. Does the 20 TPI saw require a different file than ones with larger teeth?


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## DavePolaschek

Lazyman said:


> Does the 20 TPI saw require a different file than ones with larger teeth?


Yep. A smaller file is needed for smaller teeth.


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## HokieKen

I think a needle file is recommended for anything finer than 15 ppi. I use a 4" Double Extra Slim for my dovetail saw though which is 16 ppi and it works fine. I think it would work fine for the 20 ppi as well.


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## Lazyman

Surprisingly, buying a couple of nice dovetails saws doesn't fix your technique. 
...but after the 5th dovetail a day, I finally got one that I am not too embarrassed to show.


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## EricFai

Looks like you got the system down Nathan. Well done.


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## DavePolaschek

Some of the storage boxes I’m building have dovetails that aren’t as tight s that, Nathan. As the Schwarz says, everybody has a certain number of bad dovetails in them. They’ll keep coming out until you’ve used up all your bad ones, so keep practicing.


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## Lazyman

This was actually a little too tight but I managed to get it together without splitting it. I am sure that I have plenty of bad dovetails in me. It goes very slow too. I'll happy if I can make them quicker but just a little crappier. I had to use a file to sneak up on this one. Everytime I tried to use a chisel, I either removed too much or in the wrong place. I think I need to get a second set of chisels so that I can put a bevel for soft woods on one set. I think I need a better fret saw too. I am having a hard time keeping the blade tight. I tried just chiseling the waste out but that takes even longer.


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## donwilwol

I've always found softwood dovetails harder to get right then hardwood, I'm not sure why. I've often used the "glue and sawdust mix" in the first few after not doing them for a while.


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## Lazyman

Interesting @donwilwol. I was holding off trying one in hardwood but I may have to try that next. 

For anyone...I am curious if anyone keeps a set of chisels with shallower bevel specifically for softwoods or do you just deal with it.


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## DavePolaschek

I’m not like the other children. I almost never use a chisel for dovetails. I cut the waste with a bow saw and then I sneak up on them with either an Auriou rasp or a Iwasaki float. I nearly made a set of floats for myself just for dovetailing, but found a decent pre-black-Friday price on the floats at Highland Woodworking.

Cutting dovetails in pine for my bookcases, I did the first one or two using a chisel, but abandoned that very quickly due to getting all sorts of nasty blowouts and tears and such. Switched to a rasp, then to a float, and have started using those on hardwoods now too. And floats are easy to sharpen, too.


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## EricFai

Guess I need to look up what a float is. I can only think of tile work at the moment.

Edit, Ok a cross between a saw and a file, interesting. Looks like it would work well.


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## Thedustydutchman

I dont do many dovetails but I do work a lot with softwood. I have three chisels that I keep at (or around) 17 degrees for doing butterfly inlay work and paring work. They do seem to dull faster but I like them for the white pine I use a lot.


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## Lazyman

EricFai said:


> Guess I need to look up what a float is. I can only think of tile work at the moment.
> 
> Edit, Ok a cross between a saw and a file, interesting. Looks like it would work well.


I was doing some research on Iwasaki wood files and floats yesterday and I have not quite figured out when I would use one vs the other. From what I can tell, floats have parallel teeth sort like a ridge across them but files seem to be to cut diagonally and are usually finer but that may just be the ones that I have seen pictures of.


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## AMZ

Iwasaki files work nicely, however unless you have a safe edge, use cautiously. Some floats you can buy, need sharpened before use. I believe LN are this way. Iwasaki floats come sharp, according to Highland Hardware, and appear to be very competitively priced.


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## DavePolaschek

My LN plane-making floats arrived sharp. They’re just too big for most of my dovetails.

Floats have teeth running across them. From the side, the profile looks just like saw teeth.

The other thing about floats is that they are sharpenable, at least if you’re capable of sharpening a saw. Same files used, no fleam.


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## donwilwol

Floats leave a smoother finish like a hand plane. They are used a lot in making wood planes.


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## bandit571

Hmmm..Mr Jackson doing a wee bit of work, this week..








Rub a bit of candle wax along the teeth...works fairly well..








Now, IF I can just train the operator to follow a line.....








Maybe I just might get the hang of these things...


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