# Upgrading 60 Amp Service to 200 Amps



## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

I have a 30'x60' shop. Currently, it has a 100 amp panel fed with 60 amps from the house 200 amp service, about 60 feet away. I want to upgrade it to a 200 amp service.

Current plans are to run a new meter, which will ad about $30.00 a month to the bill. Cost would be around $1,000.00.

Just wondering if there are other options I am not aware of, such as sub panel, panel swap, etc.

NOTES and BACKGROUND:

Since the three electricians I talked to go into incredulous mode at the mention of 200 amp service for my shop, here are some of the details:

Running off the existing shop panel is:

-35 LED's (4 footers at about 40 watts each (1,400 watts)

-Stereo (550 watts)

-Misc. work area lights and exterior lights (100 watts)

- Computer (600 watts)

Additional to the foregoing and when working by myself:

- One of three collectors is running. As often as not, it's the 3 hp (15 amp) unit

- Table saw/Band saw, 8" jointer/ 89" edge sander, / Lathe#1 or Lathe #2 / ROS sander / . . . . .

- Weather tends to be either very cold or very hot here, so I am installing an HVAC (60 & 40 amp breakers)

While I'm playing, friends drop by and:

- In addition to what I'm using, they run other tools mentioned above or steamer / miter / drum sander / . . .

- 1-1/2hp or 2 hp dust collector

__
As one might surmise, just the HVAC, alone, would press the 100 amp service initially suggested by three electricians.


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## papadan (Mar 6, 2009)

I would go with the second meter and a 200 amp service.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

So far, that is the route I'm headed in. Even at $30.00 a month, I've got up to ten years of meter cost to catch up with the cost of switching out the panel and such. Too, if I started feeling the years and rented time in the shop, it's easier to track.



> I would go with the second meter and a 200 amp service.
> 
> - papadan


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

How are you gaining more Amps? Are you getting a bigger service line drop from the utility and a transformer.
Adding more panels might not gain you much.
Good luck


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Yep - either way (from the house or from the street, but the same box), I'm going to have to run lines. The bigger panel is, obviously, necessary to handle the increased amp service.



> How are you gaining more Amps? Are you getting a bigger service line drop from the utility and a transformer.
> Adding more panels might not gain you much.
> Good luck
> 
> - Aj2


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## papadan (Mar 6, 2009)

> How are you gaining more Amps? Are you getting a bigger service line drop from the utility and a transformer.
> Adding more panels might not gain you much.
> Good luck
> 
> - Aj2


He will get a new service line with his new meter, his house service will not be connected directly to the shop service.


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## Gilley23 (May 9, 2017)

You'll never need that 200a service, that's way overkill for what you're doing….or even what you think you might be doing. Replace the 60a feed with a 100a feed and save that $30/month. The 100a will be more than enough.


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

So your power provider will definitely let you put another meter on your property? if yes then ignore this question.

You'd be surprised at how little your amp draw really is when adding up nameplates on equipment. Your 60 & 30 for a/v: only add the largest of the heat/cool load. They will never run at the same time.

I'm not trying talking you out of a 200A service. I'm just saying I would be one of theirs electricians looking at you incredulously because most want a 200A service on a 60A budget. If money wasn't a problem I'd install a 320A if that's what you wanted


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

I have a 200 amp service for my 1200 sq ft shop. I have air conditioning/heat, dust collector and the usual power tools. It's nice to be able to run any machine I want and not worry about overloading a circuit.


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## Gilley23 (May 9, 2017)

If they're only charging you $1k and it makes you feel good, go for it. Just know that it isn't at all needed.


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

I'm not stepping into the debate on the need for 200 amp power, but when my 32×50 building went up (last fall) I tried to get a separate 200 amp service and the power company would not do it. "Not enough load to merit a second meter" was what I was told…all the while wondering how they knew what I would be using. Anyway, I had to go with the 100 amp feed from the house.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Our utility district does allow second meters [vs a larger panel, line, etc.].

I've tested a few devices in my shop and having two people in it, while running the heating-cooling system and other items mentioned would push a hundred amp panel "hard" at times.

My older four bag collector claims 15 amps and it actually runs at that. The table saw runs at 7. The lights are over 10. The radio and computer are 6 or more. The little collector is around 7 and the drum disc is around 7 too. If the compressor kicks in, it adds 10. That's 62. Now, kick in the heat pump and main unit and you've pushed your 100 amp unit beyond recommended maxes.

Oh, and I forgot hot water.

Having lived the world of electronics, some of the world of [marine] electrical other electrical experiences, I'm not much of a fan of trying to save a buck by going for code minimums, whether fourteen gauge wire in for outlets or other. After all, they are minimums.

Hey a lot of us lived in houses with sixty amp service fed by fuses, and the associated problem of dealing with fuses burning out. That was pretty state of the art at the time.

Of course, trenches are going to be dug regardless of the route I go, so I might as well insure against the future. So, rather than wish an 1,800 square foot shop had 200 amp service on down the road, I might as well spend a few hundred more and install it now, rather than spend a fortune to upgrade later.

Just a side note, as it is now, with the sixty amp available, I don't allow two collectors and two pieces of equipment to run with the 240 heat I am using. It just doesn't seem worth it to go to the trouble of upgrading for a mere forty amps that may or may not be enough.

As to the 60 amp budget, I'm not sure I follow you on that one. If it meant a price issue, no, that wasn't applicable, but, yes, I know people want Bon quality at Walmart prices (after all, they are the only ones who should have a dependable car and a decent home).

Anyway, what am I missing?



> So your power provider will definitely let you put another meter on your property? if yes then ignore this question.
> 
> You d be surprised at how little your amp draw really is when adding up nameplates on equipment. Your 60 & 30 for a/v: only add the largest of the heat/cool load. They will never run at the same time.
> 
> ...


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Wonder if it has anything to do with that I live several rock throws from two dams? A normal monthly bill for my house and shop is, on the high side, around $120.00. Counties over, the same bill would be around $500.00.

Oh, and they already cashed my check.



> I m not stepping into the debate on the need for 200 amp power, but when my 32×50 building went up (last fall) I tried to get a separate 200 amp service and the power company would not do it. "Not enough load to merit a second meter" was what I was told…all the while wondering how they knew what I would be using. Anyway, I had to go with the 100 amp feed from the house.
> 
> - Fred Hargis


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## Gilley23 (May 9, 2017)

Kelly, electrical load demands don't work like that (adding a+b+c=d). It's not code minimum. On a properly balanced 100a panel, you can get 200a (100a on each hot leg; Hot-Neutral-Hot). Realistically, you can balance the load close enough to draw 150+ amps through it without any issues…..which you still won't do.


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## BlasterStumps (Mar 13, 2017)

+1 for going with a 100 Amp off your existing panel and no new meter.

We are looking at the possibility of moving a building off the property and if we do, it will leave a 200 Amp meter pedestal standing. We are contemplating building a workshop in the same location and don't really want a second meter to pay for. We will most likely dig a trench and install wire and conduit coming off our existing panel at the house.


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## Overflowin (Jun 3, 2015)

Another electrician here saying you will never need that amount of available power, however, if its in the budget and it makes you feel warm and fuzzy, than why not?! My belief is basically install the largest service budget allows. you will pay a nominal monthly fee to have the service, and from there you'll only pay for the power you use. better to have the headroom and not need it, than need it and not have it.

as far as options, have you looked into a 320a service for the house with a 200a panel in the house and a 200a panel for the shop? i install split services like that all the time. one service, one bill, but all power you could ever dream of… probably cost more to install, but may be more cost effective long term.

-Donnie


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## JBrow (Nov 18, 2015)

Kelly,

One thought from a non-electrician and assuming allowed by NEC and local building codes, would be to add a second 100 amp subpanel in the shop from the existing 200 amp main load center while keeping the 60 subpanel in place. This would leave you with 160 amp service in the shop while saving the headache and added expense of the new meter. For a little extra money the feeder cable could be sized to handle 200 amps and even the new load center could be a 200 amp box if you want to preserve the option for 200 amp service upgrade latter on.

It may be worthwhile to determine if the feeder cable from the 200 amp load center to the existing 100 amp subpanel in the shop is sized to handle 100 amps. If so, a quick change of a breaker could result in 100 amp service in the shop.

Whatever you decide to do, I think that while the trench to the shop is open, installing some conduit from the house to the shop would make running new cable, should it ever be needed, much easier. A second conduit could also be installed for any low voltage lines you may wish to run in the future.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

That sounds like another option worth looking in to (thanks for the mention to you and Fridge). I wasn't aware they existed.

Now I'm curious about them, since all we, generally, hear about is 100, 200 and 400 panels.



> Another electrician here saying you will never need that amount of available power, however, if its in the budget and it makes you feel warm and fuzzy, than why not?! My belief is basically install the largest service budget allows. you will pay a nominal monthly fee to have the service, and from there you ll only pay for the power you use. better to have the headroom and not need it, than need it and not have it.
> 
> as far as options, have you looked into a 320a service for the house with a 200a panel in the house and a 200a panel for the shop? i install split services like that all the time. one service, one bill, but all power you could ever dream of… probably cost more to install, but may be more cost effective long term.
> 
> ...


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

The electrician who installed the 100 amp panel said sixty was the best we'd be able to expect from it, and it would be under powered. Whether he meant the house was tapped out too, I don't know. I wasn't around then.

If I go the house route, the extra conduit [and larger conduit] wouldn't be a bad idea. Thanks



> Kelly,
> 
> One thought from a non-electrician and assuming allowed by NEC and local building codes, would be to add a second 100 amp subpanel in the shop from the existing 200 amp main load center while keeping the 60 subpanel in place. This would leave you with 160 amp service in the shop while saving the headache and added expense of the new meter. For a little extra money the feeder cable could be sized to handle 200 amps and even the new load center could be a 200 amp box if you want to preserve the option for 200 amp service upgrade latter on.
> 
> ...


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

Where I live, I have a 200 amp service for the house, a separate 200 amp service for the shop and a 60 amp service for a trailer that I rent out for a total of 3 meters. It didn't cost me anything to run it.


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## Overflowin (Jun 3, 2015)

I have never actually seen a 400a residential service. All the power companies around where I live offer 100, 200 and 320 amp service. Most people refer to the 320 as a 400 amp service, I even catch myself doing it. You would still have 200 amp load centers, the bus in your meter and service disconnects would be rated at 320. I typically install a meter base with (2) 200 amp breakers installed in it. Your 200a panels would be fed from those breakers.

If you are going to have any metallic connection to the house, water lines, telephone or internet wiring, this gives you the added benefit of a common bonding point keeping everything at the same potential.

-Donnie


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

That sounds good to me Kelly.If I had that service I'd be looking for a bigger Rpc big bandsaw and fat Jointer.
I limited right now what I can start right. The surge on my 10 hp Rpc and 5 hp direct drive jointer is about 100 amps for a second and lights will dim.
When everything is running in my shop I'm right about 7kw.
I say go big!


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## Gilley23 (May 9, 2017)

> I have never actually seen a 400a residential service. All the power companies around where I live offer 100, 200 and 320 amp service. Most people refer to the 320 as a 400 amp service, I even catch myself doing it. You would still have 200 amp load centers, the bus in your meter and service disconnects would be rated at 320. I typically install a meter base with (2) 200 amp breakers installed in it. Your 200a panels would be fed from those breakers.


Years and years ago when I did resi work, I installed an 800a service on a house. It's the only house that the local power co wanted justification for the size of the service.


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## jonah (May 15, 2009)

> The electrician who installed the 100 amp panel said sixty was the best we d be able to expect from it, and it would be under powered. Whether he meant the house was tapped out too, I don t know. I wasn t around then.
> 
> If I go the house route, the extra conduit [and larger conduit] wouldn t be a bad idea. Thanks


If you're going to be trenching for any reason, install an extra 2-3" conduit alongside the one you'll be using just because. The extra cost is absolutely negligible, and you never know when you'll want to pull some sort of cable or wire from place to place. A hundred and fifty bucks of conduit could save you $5000 later on. You could even pull a set of pex water pipes through a 3" conduit (assuming it's buried deep enough to avoid freezing).


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## Overflowin (Jun 3, 2015)

Yeah, there are always exceptions. The guy that owns the electrical supply house here in my town (and all over indiana and Illinois) has a 3 phase 800a service. But then again he also has an elevator in his house.

-Donnie


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

We, definitely, live in different worlds guys. I am in the Pacific Northwest. A couple miles down the road is Priest Rapids Dam. About seven miles up the road is Wanapum. An hour and twenty minutes away is Rocky Reach. Above that is Chief Joe, then Grand Coulee Dam. These are not little dams and have no problem powering our state and turning a tidy sum selling power to California and other states.

Power costs us around four cents a kilowatt. Here, we pull gas to install electric and save a fortune.

It may be for that reason we actually have 400 amp service (not 320) panels and that they are common.

Our utility's web page:

http://www.grantpud.org/customer-service/our-services/new-construction


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## WhyMe (Feb 15, 2014)

NEC only alllows one feeder to a detached building.


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

> We, definitely, live in different worlds guys. I am in the Pacific Northwest. A couple miles down the road is Priest Rapids Dam. About seven miles up the road is Wanapum. An hour and twenty minutes away is Rocky Reach. Above that is Chief Joe, then Grand Coulee Dam. These are not little dams and have no problem powering our state and turning a tidy sum selling power to California and other states.
> 
> Power costs us around four cents a kilowatt. Here, we pull gas to install electric and save a fortune.
> 
> ...


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

I'd love to have 4¢/KWH electric, definitely a gloat.


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## bigblockyeti (Sep 9, 2013)

That is a pretty good deal on electricity! The public utilities commission of ohio (all non-elected) last year voted to guarantee profits for first energy regardless of their continued operation of antiquated generation plants and the customers get to foot the tab. Excellent example of taxation without representation, but then again this is ohio and should be expected!


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

> . Excellent example of taxation without representation, but then again this is ohio and should be expected!
> 
> - bigblockyeti


 That is a huge understatement…....


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## bigblockyeti (Sep 9, 2013)

Sorry for the rant but I know there's a few folks on here from ohio and I can't be the only one who is completely appalled this is allowed and even quasi legal. Keep your powder dry!!


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

It to often occurs little thought is given to all relative issues or the future by appointed or elected officials. For example, though we have enough hydro power to ten my state's needs, and a nuclear plant only thirty miles away (Hanford), the hills about us are littered with hundreds of wind generators.

Grand Coulee Dam has to kick in a turbine just to burn off some of what the wind generators put out, and which the people's utilities are required, by law, to buy from the private corporations that build them.

It's sad that, just over the mountains, on the West Coast (Seattle, Tacoma, etc.), what I pay around $70.00 to $120.00 for would cost around $300.00 to $500.00, even as our utilities are selling the power to other states.


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## cathode (May 18, 2014)

If you're getting a new service, get 3-phase 240V, or if possible, 3-phase 480V service. You can recoup the cost by buying used 3-phase industrial machines for pennies on the dollar at auctions. If you went with commercial-grade lighting you can probably run the ballasts at 277V already.

I'm in a strictly residential area in the middle of Portland, OR, and when I inquired about 3-phase service for my house, I was told that it was possible but I'd have to pay for a third transformer to be installed on the pole. It would have cost me about $1500 to buy the transformer for the utility. I didn't pursue it further so I'm not sure if they would have charged me for labor and other things.


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## dhazelton (Feb 11, 2012)

If you stick with the power feed from the house I wonder if you can put some kind of meter at the garage to measure usage IF you rent the shop out….


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

> but when my 32×50 building went up (last fall) I tried to get a separate 200 amp service and the power company would not do it. - Fred Hargis


Have you tried an electrician. I had a 200 A second service put in no problems they knew the inspector. This is because I wanted option to put a mobile home in on my property.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

If I were starting from scratch, that would be an excellent idea to consider. More so since it's available.

I'm more than a little past the point I need to bargain hunt for 3-phase toys. There isn't much I don't have, aside from a shaper or a bigger pin router (neither of which I'm interested in). I can make do with my current left tilt cabinet saw, 8", long bed spiral jointer and so on.



> If you re getting a new service, get 3-phase 240V, or if possible, 3-phase 480V service. You can recoup the cost by buying used 3-phase industrial machines for pennies on the dollar at auctions. If you went with commercial-grade lighting you can probably run the ballasts at 277V already.
> 
> I m in a strictly residential area in the middle of Portland, OR, and when I inquired about 3-phase service for my house, I was told that it was possible but I d have to pay for a third transformer to be installed on the pole. It would have cost me about $1500 to buy the transformer for the utility. I didn t pursue it further so I m not sure if they would have charged me for labor and other things.
> 
> - William Shelley


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

> but when my 32×50 building went up (last fall) I tried to get a separate 200 amp service and the power company would not do it. - Fred Hargis
> Have you tried an electrician. I had a 200 A second service put in no problems they knew the inspector. This is because I wanted option to put a mobile home in on my property.
> 
> - rwe2156


Yep, started with an electrician. He couldn't do the approval process in my name, I had to personally walk through their process to be denied. Bear in mind, your service was for another residence; mine was for a hobbyist's shop.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Back to 200 amp panels, my situation is an example of proof you don't know what the future will demand of that panel.

As mentioned, I have:

3 lighting circuits (so if one trips, the other is still on) for about 24 four foot LED's, plus exterior lights (15 amps)
2 slots for the 230 saw (10 amp)
2 slots for the 230 jointer (15 amp)
2 slots for the 230 dust collector (18 amps (15 run))
2 slots for a ceiling mount 240 heater for the auto bays.

2 slots for the 230 dust collector I JUST SWAPPED, yesterday, in for the 1-1/2 horse, 115 unit (18 amps (15 run))

4 slots for the 230 heating and cooling
8 slots for outlets (2 leap frog outlets for each wall)
2 slots for outlets in the car bay portions of the shop

Add to this another 2 "I don't know what they're for" 230 slots and a 2 more 115 slots, for unintended growth, like a hot tub between the shop and house, or a BBQ area, or…..

That's about 33 slots of the 20 on my existing "you'll never have to upgrade" 100 amp panel and a good dent in the slots of the 200 amp panel waiting for installation.

With just me, the good money is on that the heating cooling system is on (40amp/60 amp breaker). Of course, the lights are on (15 amp), as is the radio and computer (7). I, often, have the collector going and a saw (15 + 7 amps).

My buddy may or may not show up and that's a second body running collectors and sanders or saws. Even if he's not around, I'm trying to convince my wife sanding is fun…....

Add to all this running the circuit from the box in house sixty feet away, rather than a new service from the street.


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