# On a lighter note. Made in USA



## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

There has been quite a bit of political bantering here lately, so I thought I would pass on some good news for a change.

I was working on a home plumbing issue and needed adjustable pliers. I have one in a set of portable tools, and I keep those in my SUV. Problem was the vehicle was at the dealers for an air-conditioner issue.

Since I have every conceivable tool in the shop, I decided to get another pliers to add to the collection and not rely on my car being available.

So I went to the hardware store, not the big box places, as I like to give the local owners the business as much as possible.

I always try to buy "made here" products whenever it's possible.

I had three choices in the pliers. A no-name brand (China), a Irwin (China) and lo and behold Channel Lock…..fiercely made in *Meadville PA.*

The price was $19.95 vs. $18.95 for the Irwin.
Gee, that was a tough decision. Channel Lock, the inventors and still made here!

If it was $6.00 more I still would have bought "made here"

The last time I had to replace a Phillips screwdriver, I went to HD (as I also needed some oak), and found all the chinese junk as usual, but hanging there was also Klein products (made here in Skokie, IL). Another easy decision.

Has anyone else lately found "made here" tools available that you purchased over imports?

Let us know where and when.

Thanks


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## Bonka (Apr 13, 2012)

I look at "Made In" before I buy things. I hate buying online because it only notes "Forgien Made." I will not buy things made in China because of quality and their politics.


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## crank49 (Apr 7, 2010)

I usually buy "made in USA" if possible. 
The price is really NO more; if you factor in what all the jobs and riches leaving this country is costing you.
A couple years ago I was looking to buy a recripical saw. I looked at 8 choices. The only one made in the USA was the original Milwaukee Sawzall. And it was not the most expensive. I bought it.

An interesting point, to me at least, is that many of the cheaper and store brand tools at Home Depot are actually the ones made here. Buck chisels and Husky screw drivers for example. Can't brag on the Buck chisels, but the screw drivers are not bad at all. I also try to buy mostly Eastwing hammers and Jorgensen clamps, both made here.

However, lately I have seen a trend in HD where they are starting to replace some of my favorite brands with Cineese made DeWalt and Milwaukee. They have figured people will pay more for certain brands and won't look to see where they are made. They probably make twice the profit on these items. Pisses me off. Big time.

I really wish there was a law to prevent companies from selling import copies of their products under the same brand name as their American made product. Like you could have a "Stanley" saw made in the USA, but the Stanley saw made in China would have to be sold by "Stanley International" for instance. Some folks would not care either way, but I bet it would make a difference.


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## KnickKnack (Aug 20, 2008)

I have a question about this, if I may…
So - there you are in the shop, 3 choices in front of you, one made in your own country. Is there any "big" indication that this is so? A big "Made in the USA" Sign? Or do you have to look closely yourself to find it?
The reason I ask is that I, too, like to try and buy locally made products (in my case, Made in Portugal) where possible. Over the last year I've found at least 4 local shops that sell *only* "Made in Portugal" products - one is a tailor, one a shoe shop, two were "lots of things" shops (I bought a belt in one). There is absolutely *nothing* in these shops, or outside, or in the windows to indicate they stock local product, let alone that they *only* stock local product. Only when the staff have seen me looking, almost with a magnifying glass, at the label to see where it was made have they pointed out that everything was local.
Is it the same situation in the USA, or are you provided with better "encouragement"?


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

KnickKnack

We have a big box store chain here in the midwest that competes with Home Depot and Lowe's. Thay are tagging a red, white and blue sticker on anything made in the USA.
There are plenty of those stickers in the last year.


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## KnickKnack (Aug 20, 2008)

Thay are tagging a red, white and blue sticker on anything made in the USA

Smart.
That technology will come to Portugal in a few decades, I guess


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## AKSteve (Feb 4, 2012)

that is always the first thing I look for is "Made in America" and if it's not I will go to multiple stores until find it. As you can well imagine we don't have that many stores in Wasilla, but we do have the big box stores (Lowes and HD) Although not as well stocked. If I can find it then I will settle.


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## jmos (Nov 30, 2011)

Jim, good topic. Nice to illustrate not all of non-shop talk is a flame throwing street fight.

It's great to see more made in USA products around. I too avoid made in China, but have no problems buying products made in Canada or Europe. Made in China just screams to me that the company wants the cheapest junk they can find to try to get my money.

I'll second the thumbs up on Klein tools; when I was working instrumentation maintenance in refineries all the guys had Klein tools. Very uncommon for one to fail even with all day use for years. I have a few myself.


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## HoosierDude (Feb 22, 2010)

I just did it recently with a putty knife. I had misplaced the 1.5" flexible one I got from my dad 25 years ago and needed to buy one. Headed down to Lowes and had two choices; made in china for about 3 bucks or a Warner, made in the USA for twice the price. I grabbed the Warner.

I've done the very same thing with the Channel Lock's and Crescent as well years ago. Heck I still call them by the brand names. (The look on my wifes face is priceless when I say "hand me that Cresent Wrench.)

Now, if we could only convince Grizzly to start making their power tools here.


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## nwbusa (Feb 21, 2012)

I buy the best quality tools I can afford. Usually that means those made in the US or Canada, although Japan and many of the European countries also produce some fine tools.

I recently bought a few Channellocks on sale, and was happy to see that they were still made in the USA.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

John,
Good points. I too will buy things made in Canada and Europe. I just would hope that we can bring some mfg. back to this country. Mfg. was my profession and business back in it's heyday.


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## derosa (Aug 21, 2010)

With tools it is dependent on if it will be a one time use item or not, something I need a lot is always worth the extra cash. I've been more amazed at how many items at the dollar stores around here are actually made in the US. Went one day for 5 items and 4 were US made.


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## jackass (Mar 26, 2008)

I think we all need to take a page from Jim c's book. The way things are shaping up, we all will be in trouble financially if we don't try to buy "RED WHITE AND BLUE". Some sort of campaign should be started to at least slow it down a bit. My wife and I look carefully at products in the supermarket to buy locally grown. Chinese tools are for the most part very inferior to home made. The north American tool guys are exercising greed without considering the danger they put us woodworkers in when a tool breaks. A friend had a Chinese grinding wheel break in a hand held unit, lucky not too much damage to his hands. Made in North America is much safer.
Jack


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## cabmaker (Sep 16, 2010)

Good for you Jim ! I share the same sentiment and will always spend more for homemade. But it is becoming difficult.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Channel locks have a lifetime warranty too ;-) I have never broken a pair except for their miniatures. I am probably using them for work they were not designed for, Some of mine are over 20 years old. Would have had them longer, but my tools were stolen in the early 90s ;-(

I have to wonder why people pay 98% the price of good USA made for Chinese junk? Irwin vs Channelock.


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## Belg1960 (Jan 3, 2010)

Have you guys seen this? An entire house made with, made in the USA products.
http://www.facebook.com/TheAllAmericanHome?sk=app_192152720817536%2F


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## fussy (Jan 18, 2010)

Jim,

I too try to buy tools buiilt here whenever possible, as well as NEVER buying food that can be produced here that is imported (eg. chinese or vietnamese farm raised fish, shrimp, etc. Unfortunately, that is getting harder and harder to do as very few products are marked; especially those made in the U.S.A

Years ago (in the fifties) congress required products to be prominently marked as to origin (cheap knock=offs from Japan being a problem). Tools and junk radios and other things started popping up proudly marked in USA. They were so shoddy an investigation was launched to determine origin. Turned out they were manufactured in USA !.... USA, Japan! COngress quickly ammended the law to require the marking to be thus; U.S.A. Sadly, it seems they no longer want us to question a product's origin so as not to call attention to all the stuff they are slipping in under the radar. Maybe we will become accustomed to buying shoddy, cheap, potentially deadly atuff without concern for where it comes. Seems we do havew the Best CONGRESS MONEY CAN BUY !!

At WHAT POINT WOULD YOU ESCHEW american=made over chinese, etc? Just how thick is our skin?

Good post Jim. Thanks!!

Steve


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## crank49 (Apr 7, 2010)

Chinese manufactured goods are not all junk.
Some of our highest tech and very well manufactured goods are made in China.

For example, show me a cell phone that was not made in China. Bet you can't do it.
Where was that HP, or Acer, or Dell or Apple computer you are probably using made; most likely China.

Same for the IPod, IPad, Nook, Kindle and on and on. These are not junk. They are easily better than any comparable devices made in the USA. . . Because we don't make any of these items. We probably designed them, engineered the process for manufacturing them and maybe even some of the manufacturing equipment used to produce them; but the production is done where there are no corporate taxes, labor is cheap, humans have no rights, and the EPA and OSHA do not exist.

My problem with "made in china" goods is not related to the quality of the product, it's that we have all the stupid rules and restrictions on our manufacturers and half the population iof the USA is so damn concerned for our environment and the great ficticious looming disaster of climate change but then they go out and buy every product they use from the very countries that don't give a rat's ass about the environment, human rights or anything else we claim to hold so dear. BS


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

Right on Crank


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## Tedstor (Mar 12, 2011)

Interesting topic. Several months ago I went to lowes in search of 8d trim nails. Lowes must have 100 different types from a few different manufacturers. About 95% of the available products were made in either China or the United Arab Emirates. Only the Maze brand was USA made. Luckily, 8d nails were among their products. The Maze product was a buck or two more expensive. But an American job is worth a hell of a lot more to me than a buck or two. And when I compared the quality of the USA vs UAE product, the Maze nail was clearly better. The steel was more rigid, the point was sharper, and even the box was thicker. I don't think a single nail bent-over on me. That said, the additional cost was more than justified by the better quality. The fact that it was an American product was a huge added bonus.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

^ We need more of these testimonials. USA, USA!!!


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

I went to Sears awhile back to buy a torque wrench, as my last one seemed to have grown legs. I had already bit the bullet and was prepared to get some piece of schlock made in China. Imagine my delight when I found out it was made in INDIANA! +1 for Craftsman. My floor jack, though…I should have had that 30-year old mawnster from Sears rebuilt, rather than settle for the chinesium pipsqueak I have now. Oh well. When it breaks, hopefully not in the middle of a job, I'll get another real one.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

Chinesium….............!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That's a great one HA!


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## stonedlion (Jan 12, 2011)

http://www.stillmadeinusa.com/


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## bondogaposis (Dec 18, 2011)

This relates to my recent experience buying a new Stanley block plane. See this thread. Why doesn't Stanley go back to it's roots and make top quality tools here in the USA? Currently they are competing w/ themselves in the used tool market and losing because the new stuff is junk. Generally the new Stanley planes sell for less than used ones because they are worth less even w/ all the work involved in restoring one. A restored Stanley plane makes a decent tool, the new ones can't be made right.


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

In the commercial construction world i live in from the hours of 7-5 M-F ive seen a few jobs that carry a buy american clause. All materials, fasteners, and products must be made in the USA. I heard of one project where the VA rep found a box of Poland made screws which lead to him believing all the drywall was hung with those screws. Every inch of sheetrock was pulled from the job and reinstalled with american made screws.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

^ Wow, I love it.


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## JJohnston (May 22, 2009)

For floor jacks, I don't know if any are still made in the US, but for a non-China alternative, consider AC Hydraulic from Denmark. I have one of these, and although it was really expensive ($600), it's top-of-the-line.

http://www.ac-hydraulic.dk/en/products/hydraulic-jacks/


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Channel lock, Baby! I lose them, buy more, then find them. I must have 8 or so. Never let me down. One rusty pair is relegated to hose duty. Good tool.


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## Hartmann (Jun 28, 2010)

Sorry Jim C but for me "We need more of these testimonials. Canada, Canada or Europe Europe, hahahahaha ok I like USA USA, in my book, Europe, Canada, USA or Australia…. when it is possible….
BTW Lie Nielsen v.s. Veritas…. I'll keep the veritas….... hahahaha sorry….....

You need to try a Virutex power tool from Spain, excellent…..


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

When I have a choice, I buy U.S. every time!

Maybe, for the benefit of LJs we should start a list of U.S. made woodworking products … count Canada in on that!


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

While there are some quality products coming out of China, I think the larger issue causing many to boycott is the cheating, lying and stealing. Their currency is tied to the US Dollar for their trade benefit. They steal and counterfeit everything they can possible get away with. Their Gov't doesn't not make any good faith effort to stop the criminal activity and appears to be a sponsor in many instances. This statement could become a book very easily, but you get the point, I'm sure….....


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

*TopamaxSurvivor,*

You mentioned countereit and it brings to mind the *non-apple* Apple store in China where even the employees didn't know they were not really an Apple store but a counterfeit. That has to be one of the most egregious displays of counterfeiting that I heard of.

I have not seen any counterfeit tools as yet (maybe I haven't seen one because it was too good of a counterfeit)!


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I'm not sure they couterfieted any tools, but it is commonly known China only has one legal copy of Microsoft's Windows ;-))


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

*TopamaxSurvivor, how do we know for sure?*


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

WE don't, but common knowledge is common knowledge.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

On a sour note, Mitwit's ( as the Brits call him) company, Bain Capital, has an electronics company that has had it's workers training their employees training Mexican and Chinese replacements for the last few months. They are now starting to move operations to Mexico and China. This is all according to an employee interviewed on Thom Hartman's radio program today.

Mitwit claimed to be on the leading edge of outsourcing when he started Bain. Buying American Companies, stripping the assets, burying them in debt, taking the capital moving it to off shore accounts, leaving the bond holders with nothing and sending American jobs overseas is how he made his billions. WE need more of the new American way, don't we? ;-((


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

TopMax
The ultimate pessimist.
It's sad.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Quite the contrary; champion of justice for all, not just the 1% who are milking us, U.S. dry. The sad part is all the president's since Carter seem to have committed felonies to get elected :-(


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

BTW, What's sad? That I do not worship the almighty dollar?


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

I thought everyone knew that China stole all of the technology that it could… and, is at it…

... they ignore all laws… patents, etc.

... if they want to do it, they do it…

*IMHO*


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## JollyGreen67 (Nov 1, 2010)

jim C - Thanks.

grasshopper


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

More companies are returning to the US. Saw a news thing on it a few weeks back on ABC. It seems that American workers are four times more productive and with wages going up in other countries it makes sense to return to the US. So, more stuff might be found from here in the future.


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## cstrang (Sep 22, 2009)

I like to buy things made in my own country (Canada), support local economy, better quality, yada yada, I will also buy things from the US, same good quality and nothing wrong with helping the economy of our neighbours to the south. Also the German, Swiss, Austrian and the list goes on. Best I can figure, anywhere you can find cheap labour you'll find a cheap inferior product and you wont be doing you, your country or you neighbouring friendly countries any good by buying the "other" product. We used to call them "no name" brands but sadly more and more the "big boys" are making cheaper products passing them off under the own name.


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## Bagtown (Mar 9, 2008)

+1 cstrang
I think one of the biggest offenders out there is wally world.
They come to a town bring crap from all over the world a negative profit prices and affect the existing local economy to such a degree that 70%+ of existing stores end up out of business.
When you shop at a local mom and pop shop your helping the local economy in so many countless ways. When you shop at Wally World, the profit isn't spent in your hometown…

Mike


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## Bagtown (Mar 9, 2008)

Oh and Jim, Great post.
I think we all need to be more aware of what we buy and where it's manufactured.
The USA and Canada were built on manufacturing, and we all looked the other way while it was outsourced by CEO's who think that the dollar is more important than the people.


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## jmos (Nov 30, 2011)

Walmart is the ultimate extension of the American peoples insatiable desire to buy more junk as cheap as possible. Walmart does not put other businesses out of business, the customers do that. Walmart moves in with prices no smaller business can compete with, and instead of supporting smaller businesses folks rush to Walmart, throwing the Mom and Pop retailers under the bus. If Walmart moved in and non one shopped there, they would fold up and go home, but that almost never happens.


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## BinghamtonEd (Nov 30, 2011)

(copied from another site)

In an episode of the satirical cartoon South Park, a new Wal-Mart comes to town. Initially, everyone is delighted with this new arrival, but soon all the local stores go bust and the town centre becomes deserted. South Park's residents then decide to boycott Wal-Mart, but they find themselves uncontrollably drawn to the store, unable to stop themselves from shopping there. Eventually they realise that "the Wal-Mart" is more than just a supermarket; it has a life of its own, sinisterly luring in customers with its irresistibly low prices. The Wal-Mart must be destroyed, but when a group of residents run around the supermarket to accomplish this mission, the store magically lowers its prices to distract them. "This screwdriver set is only $9.98," says one. "I can't make it boys. You're going to have to go on without me. This bargain is too great for me!"

That episode was hilarious and yet so true.


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## Bagtown (Mar 9, 2008)

*jmos*, unfortunately you're right. It is "we" the customer that is our own worst enemy.


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## JollyGreen67 (Nov 1, 2010)

Since the subject is about WallyWorld: I was in the Military stationed at Blytheville, AR, in the late 70s. They built a store across the highway, I-55, and the town council was livid, because they were outside the jurisdiction of the city, which had incredible blue laws [you could be passing out with a headache, NO sales of pharmaticuls on sunday]. At that time WallyWorld was just starting out from a has been outlet to bigger things. They touted everything they sold was made in America. That all changed when Mr. Walton passed away, then the family got greedy and started importing Chinese junk. Now when WallyWorld wants to build somewhere they challenge the community to stop them, using jobs as a carrot where, they could care less if the surrounding community mom and pops suffer or go out of business.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

As Larry Ellison, ex-CEO of Oracle said paraphrasing Genghis Khan, *it is not enough that we win, everyone else has to lose.*


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

Topa,

*Ellison is *NOT the ex-CEO, he IS still the *CEO of Oracle!*


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I think I confused the CEO status of another software multi-billionaire ;-)


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

They're both a bunch of hacks, lol


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Or maybe hackers is a better word? ;-))


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## doordude (Mar 26, 2010)

thanks jim, i always buy usa first. and specialy, tools i buy only usa. ah some from lee valley,but they're a neighbor.


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

Topa,

Perhaps Bill Gates, former CEO of Microsoft!

He now runs a charitable fiundation trying to clear his conscience of all the billions he made off of people like us.
Warren Buffet also gave that foundation most of his billions to re-distribute to those that need it.

I really never cared for BG because when he started, he was a real pirate. The first operating system for the PC was "stolen" from a company in Seattle. The mouse from Xerox etc. etc. ....!


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## Sawkerf (Dec 31, 2009)

Topa -
When did Larry Ellison leave Oracle? My daughter works there and saw him just a few days ago.


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

Sawkerf,

*Ellison did NOT leave Oracle!*


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Everyone likes to say the cream comes to the top. In my experience, that only happens on the farm with raw milk ;-) MSN dominance is more about timing, luck and BG, Sr being an atty than anything else.

My opinion took a dive when Paul Allan's book came out and he was telling how BG and Steve Ballmer were plotting to force Allan out with nothing. Apparently, Paul Allan was not a 16 hour a day, 7 day a week office guy. BG and SB didn't like him having a real life out side of MSN.

PA left with his billions intact.


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## Sawkerf (Dec 31, 2009)

Novice -
You need to re-read your history. Bill Gates created DOS from CPM which he had bought the rights to. I remember DOS being virtually identical to CPM in it's earliest versions.

As for the mouse, I believe that Steve Jobs (Apple) "stole" the idea from Xerox long before Microsoft came out with Windows 1.0. Before Windows 1.0, you ran DOS with command lines.

Bill Gates was one of the first to want payment for his software. Until then, programmers were hobbyists who thought that everything should be free. BG said that the time and effort spent developing software had value.
Is getting paid for your effort an act of piracy? - lol


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Sawkerf, Maybe she saw a ghost ;-)) No, I just thought he made enough money like Gates and decided to take it easy ;-)


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## Sawkerf (Dec 31, 2009)

Nope, no ghost. She actually sees him fairly often and knows when he's in the building because she can see his parking space from her window.

Larry Ellison will probably never retire. He doesn't need the money, but he needs "the game". He's also a big time yacht racer and is heavily involved in the Americas Cup race. He has a racing catamaran floating on a lagoon at Oracle headquarters.


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

Sawkerf,

We are batting 500!

*I'll give you the one on the mouse but you have to give me the one n Microsoft!*

I did want to write all this so here is a link!

Microsoft OS

*The Original MS DOS came from Seattle Software via Microsoft , NOT Digital Research (CP/M)!*


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*oldnovice* You are correct of what happened in 1981…

*BUT*, sawkerf is correct in that what he described happened back *in the 1970's…*
the first DOS that MS had, selling under it's name, *came from CPM, modifying it to eventually make their own…*

*sawkerf was correct.*.. so were you but a few years after MS had already had their OS moving along…

I was there… I saw it happen… LOL (maybe with a better memory than you) LOL

That computer stuff was MY LIFE… and occupation… and it all started in 1954… with punched cards… wired boards… the IBM 1401 was my first computer experience… Great machine.


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

Joe,

I have looked at several different sources and all say that MS DOS originated from Seattle Software.

Here is one of my sources for MS DOS

Here is the history of CP/M an 8 bit DOS

Maybe we are saying the same things from different perspectives?http://lumberjocks.com/topics/40112#

I know the Digital research started with CP/M for 8 bit machines and their 16 bit version never attained the same success because of Microsoft. CP/M was in MITS Altair computer and a number of other S-100 Bus systems. I never worked with any 16 bit version of CP/M, later CPM.

When IBM approached Gates for a DOS he did not like the contractual agreement IBM wanted and told IBM to go to Digital Research. DR heard IBM was coming and basically hid in the closet.

*Speaking of IBM, do you want to buy some core memory? I have some panels!* Both my dad and I (and my cousin) worked at IBM, my dad did for over 30 years, I was too young to be tied to one company!


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## Sawkerf (Dec 31, 2009)

I think that it's safe to say that Microsoft's early success was more on the back of IBM than due to Gate's business skills. He wouldn't sell the MS/DOS source code to them but licensed it instead. IBM's marketing clout sold their PC's and Microsoft was along for the ride.

Since they retained the rights to the source code, they were perfectly positioned to repeat the process with other computer companies getting on the PC bandwagon. There were several, but Compaq was one of the biggest. Are they even around anymore?


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Actually Walmart is a bit more insidious with putting US companies out of business.

It is done through their Store brand "Great Value"

They start by having the real USA company offer a 'Generic' version to just occupy a small bit of shelf space. E.g. Kraft Mac-n-Cheese, would make the great value stuff. But still hold 90% of the retail space.

This goes on a while and people RECOGNIZE that the generic is just as good as the name brand..So then the generic is 20 then 30 then 40% of the shelf space.

Once the Generic is established - Walmart can start shopping suppliers…. so then instead of Kraft making the generic, they cut a bit for crappy third tier, and imports to make their brand. Suddently the quality that KRAFT would never allow out their doors, is what they are competing with on the same store shelf….while consumers still think both boxes are THE SAME, they rarely go back to retest the Kraft benchmark.

Go to a Walmart grocery aisle and see how many of the products are white boxes with blue writing compared to the brands you recognize.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*oldnovice:*

There is one minor detail that you are missing…
The PC started BEFORE IBM created it's PC…
Radio Shacks' TRSDOS and BASIC which Microsoft had a very important part…

There was a DOS BEFORE the IBM PC was a thought…
... a patch job of CPM by Microsoft…

If your History does not cover that, it's not up-to-date.

*Core Memory.*.. ah yes… I do remember those little ferrite beads with wires going through their holes…
I thought I was in Hog Heaven when our IBM 1401 was increased in Core from 4k to 8k!
Then, the 1410 with 16k core… was awesome…
The 360 had solid state memory… I think our 1st 360-30 had 30k of memory!
Later, our 360-155 had over ONE MEGABYTES of memory… talk about Hog Heaven!!
Of course those days, we got a lot more done with out memory… NO Pictures, audio, videos, graphics… ONLY TEXT… and just ONE FONT! There were articles on how to conserve memory with efficient code…

I remember a little contest a colleague and I had…
Who could Flip the 1st 4 bits of a byte with the Last 4 bits of the byte…using the smallest amount of memory.
He was very proud when he did it in 4 assembly language instructions…
Then, I surprised Him when I did it with ONE instruction! * PACK byte* did it!

*Fun days…*

*I also developed a DOS for the 1401 (before Microsoft WAS and before IBM did it for the 360)*... where the main Processing Job Stream of programs was read from disk instead of Punched card Object programs… I loaded the Object decks to disk & used them from there… Saved all kinds of time!


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

*Joe,*

I wasn't counting *THAT* as the PC we now today.

Commodore
Pet
Zed8
Apple 1
Altair

I no particular oeder could all be included ….. ? But they are NOT the PC we know today … agreed?

I doubt that few people today could even name the PC predecessors !

Did you want some core memory? I was going to get them encapsulated in clear plastic so they could be used as paperweights/conversation pieces or even sell them on eBay. These are small, not the cores, but an entire panel is only about 2.5" x4"!


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Don't forget Walmart caused the end of Levis by continually requesting lower prices. The brand still exists, but the quality is gone.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

oldnovice

Most of the *PC* predecessors we NOT* PC's* as when the term was started by IBM, but were called Microcomputers instead, yes… and DID NOT even use Disk; ergo, no DOS (disk operating system)... Maybe a very primitive OS (Operating System)... Some used a Cassette Tape recorder for storage… It seems like the Radio Shack / Tandy TRS80 Model I was one of the first one to use the 5-1/4 floppy disk… where Microsoft played a big role in writing the Basic Operating System using the disk…The BASIC language was The system language… Flaky as all get out… a piece of junk… I also thought the Apple I was a piece of junk… I guess I was spoiled after using IBM equipment all of my professional life.

Microsoft started working with disk by purchasing CPM, and enhancing it, etc. etc. and eventually calling it their DOS targeting the IBM PC (where the term PC was started)... but it was used on other computers before that… I thought the Tandy TRS80 Model II was the first Serious PC on the market… it used 8" floppies… was mechanically & electronically (reasonably) sound… My partner & I started business around the Model II… getting our Resale permit 4-1-1980. Was FUN! ... and was Before IBM came out with their PC.

Microsoft had a DOS before the IBM PC…

*No Thank you on the old Core memory capsules…* How did you come about getting them?
Did you buy a few defunct 1401, 1410's? LOL


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

Joe,

When I lived in Rochester MN, IBM would take old equipment to a junk yard about 30 miles away and dump everything there from business machines to computer parts. We used to go there any rummage parts for personal and use at school. Power supplies with electrolytics 4" diameter and values in the 100000mFd, transformers with secondary wire over 1/8 diameter.

On one trip we picked up more core memory than the school computer had along with a complete 1401 control panel with all switches and indicators, circuit boards galore ….. lots of stuff! The best part was the cost was pennies!

By today's standards very archaic components but at the time, for students, priceless!

The CPM Microsoft used was from Seattle Software …. correct? If not, then all my sources are wrong.


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

Joe,

I contacted the Computer History Museum in Mountain View and found this:

The details

In 1974, Dr. Gary A. Kildall, while working for Intel Corporation, created CP/M as the first operating system for the new microprocessor. By 1977, CP/M had become the most popular operating system (OS) in the fledgling microcomputer (PC) industry. The largest Digital Research licensee of CP/M was a small company which had started life as Traf-0-Data, and is now known as Microsoft. In 1981, Microsoft paid *Seattle Software Works* for an unauthorized clone of CP/M, and Microsoft licensed this clone to IBM which marketed it as PC-DOS on the first IBM PC in 1981, and Microsoft marketed it to all other PC OEMs as MS-DOS.

So, Joe we were both correct. CPM but not from Digital Research but from Seattle Software Works.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

I didn't remember who it was from… I just knew it was CPM…

I also thought MS did something with it before it was licensed to IBM…

I guess the pre-DOS micros used a BASIC Operating System… using their Basic Interpreter Language…

Tandy had TRSDOS which is the one I used on the TRS80 Model II…

Thank you for the Update!


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

Joe,

Sometimes is good to be the near the source of information and luckily the Computer History Museum was close at hand!

*I wish all conflicts could be solved this easy to solve!*


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

Me too…


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