# Where did all the good jobs go? I know this is of off-topic but... welcome to the new real world



## Hartmann (Jun 28, 2010)

This part kill me:
"I am a 25 year veteran, high end woodworker. I even have some AutoCad and CNC experience, but evidently not enough experience in this economy to land me a job"

http://endoftheamericandream.com/archives/the-new-american-dream-sprawling-tent-cities-filled-with-tents-made-in-china


----------



## Dennisgrosen (Nov 14, 2009)

its not about how good a woodworker you are but how good you are to sell yourself
maybee thats the skill you need to train and work with

the person who is cable of selling there own mother is the one who get the job and it doesn´t matter
if he had only seen a one Chrismas tree been fitted to the foot as a little boy

sorry to say it but thats how it is no matter how skilled you are

good luck with the hunt and may you get a job fast

Dennis


----------



## Hartmann (Jun 28, 2010)

This is just an internet article, I am not a professional woodworker just a hobbyist and I am not the guy in article, but the article make me think a lot about my job and my future….


----------



## GMman (Apr 11, 2008)

Move to Canada they now have to import people from overseas to fill the jobs.


----------



## tncraftsman (Oct 21, 2009)

Misery loves company.

I know from personal experience. My background is in technology and during the tech bust I would pour over these types sites. They offered nothing of value other than everyone griping about the horrible job conditions and the import of cheap labor and outsourcing of jobs. My misery loved the company. I can honestly say it soured my attitude and probably cost me some jobs during interviews. I was laid off 3 times in two years in that downturn.

Reading material like this is a guaranteed way to never make it out of the doldrums. I'm sure the site owners aren't hurting like those they write about. Their sites are getting a lot of traffic and website traffic = $$.

Besides, if the American dream is dead then why is the site owner selling iPads, iPhones, and other merchandise on his site??

I don't disagree the economy is in the pits. I left a cushy corporate job in March of this year to pursue furniture making and construction. Right now I've got zero work lined up but I am working on my planning and execution for January. These types of sites point out the obvious and don't offer any real solutions to the problem.

IMO the only solution is to get busy doing something, anything. Anything is better than sitting at home or the office reading this garbage.


----------



## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

ditto tncraftsman
The dream isn't dead but we are on a tough path, and the road out is working not bitching - it can be therapeutic to vent but after hitting the 'post' button the world won't have changed.

As a former boss (in academia no less) told us as students, "You should ALWAYS be looking for a job" not that you bounce around twice a year and keep looking for the slightly better deal, but keep your contacts fresh (send Christmas cards!!!), talk to folks and keep your ears active. In that way for ANY industry, you know what you are worth and what your options are. You have a better chance of bouncing back with a new (perhaps lower or higher paying) position that is relevant if you get layed off, and stand a good chance not losing your house over prolonged unemployment. Still not a 100% guarantee but it helps.


----------



## dbhost (Jul 20, 2009)

I could go on and on about this. All I have to say is people living in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. (Delta 50-760 Country of Origin is where!?)


----------



## dbhost (Jul 20, 2009)

CharlieL, what makes you think I am talking about you? Sorry if I am pointing out your hypocrisy… If you are going to stand on the soapbox of Buy American, don't be half a-ed about it. If you want others to buy American, maybe you should fund the difference in cost…


----------



## pommy (Apr 17, 2008)

sorry this is for the coffee lounge but thats closed lol


----------



## dbhost (Jul 20, 2009)

Now let's put the finger pointing away and go back to high school economics shall we?

Why is it that jobs are going overseas? There are a LOT of reasons. Not the least of which is that certain of our elected officials brokered so called free trade treaties over the last 2 decades that have left the United States beyond crippled as far as manufacturing is concerned. There are HUGE financial benefits to outsourcing manufacturing, as well as support jobs to places that pay dirt wages instead of places like the United States where wages are comparatively high, and taxes are punishing. It is far cheaper for a company to produce a product and import it, than it is to manufacture here, and cut out the boats…

To quote the Dead Kennedys song "Holiday In Cambodia" about the matter of wages…

"You'll work harder with a gun in your back for a bowl of rice a day…"

Just HOW are you going to compete?

You have GOT to produce something that buyers will be willing to pay more for. In the case of power tools, it should be obvious that we don't. Simply put there is a tipping point between affordability and quality. That tipping point has leaned to the affordability side of the coin. Now with the drastic improvements in quality that the Asian tool factories have implemented over the last decade or so… It is very hard to justify paying extra for American Iron.

We can purchase and refurbish older American Iron. And yes that puts a little bit o' cash in the American economy. But the guys that forged the castings, did all the machining etc… got paid 20+ years ago… You are effectively paying for borrowed time. Doing nothing more than garage sale shopping… Sure there is value to putting funds back in the economy that way, but it is in such a small scale as to be a mere drop of water in the ocean, and in the grand scheme of the economy, pointless.

So do you want American jobs back in America? How do we get them back?

Well I need to steer clear of politics, but let's just say get up off your back pockets, find out what laws and treaties need to be changed, and get involved to change them. NOW and not later…

A word of warning though. If we stop importing our goods, where are our goods going to come from, and how can we afford them?

This is NOT a simple problem that crying, whining, moaning and screaming at people for buying foreign products is going to solve. Use your brains, and your voices and DO something, don't just sit there and cry about it.


----------



## Finn (May 26, 2010)

America is full of "Temporary" workers from outside the USA. If they were deported much of the problem would dissapear. We have 6.1% unemployment here so one must be in the top 94% to hold a job. There are other places in the USA that have lower unemployment rates.


----------



## Hartmann (Jun 28, 2010)

Hahahaha very funny Jim Finn, I almost died laughing, Are you comedian?????


----------



## JasonWagner (Sep 10, 2009)

Unfortunately high end wood working is not a very big market in the US. There are those out there that do it, but you have to be lucky to be one of the few that make a substantial living at it. Cheap carpentry, home building, labor…things like that are still doable. This is coming from a US pharmaceutical chemist…all of my jobs are being shipped to China and India. They're a lot cheaper than me.

We can't all always buy American either. I have my 2007 Harley Davidson…I worked at the factory (York, PA) for several summers, my step dad worked there for 35+ years. My bike has been in for warranty once, and the latest oil leak is out of warranty. In America your Harley is just "marking it's territory" when it leaks oil. These are the sayings we come up with for our shortcomings. My step dad just got rid of his bike…no Harley after 35+ years. If other's can do it just as good/better and cheaper…how can we complain?!

At least American cars are making a turn around in quality and value.


----------



## gary351 (Sep 29, 2010)

When is the blue collar worker going to stand up and fight for his future in a america. The students in europe have the right idea fighting over higher tutions. Why can't the rich pay equal taxes, 10 percent to everyone i bet there would be so much money left over, that they could reinvest in a american products.


----------



## JasonWagner (Sep 10, 2009)

We refused to make things for less than $25 (plus huge benefits) an hour even though those people had barely achieved a high school diploma… Since when is it a consumer's job to pay more for inferior products? I'm very patriotic but haven't drank the Kool-Aid that some people have.


----------



## WoodLe (Sep 29, 2010)

The American dream is to work as little as you can for a high of a wage as you can and retire as soon as you can. Unions and their big demands and the greed of the American people are pushing companies out of business. Why wouldn't someone from a foreign country do it for less? They're happy with just a fraction of what we have. Also GOVERNMENT REGULATIONS are going to put this country belly up!


----------



## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I hate to say it, but it will be a lot worse before it gets better. Look at the policies that were in place when the post WWII economy was built.

Look at the regulations that were put in place after the Great Depression to prevent gambling in the financial markets that have been stripped away in the last 30 years.

Look at the policies that have been place for the last 30 years as the middle class has disintegrated.

Think for yourself. God gave you a brain. Use it and forget all the BS being spewed out of Fox, MSNBC, CNN………………… Look at history. It is nothing but repeats of cycles.

This reminds me of Hitler starting WWII. He was PO'd about Germany loosing WWI and being shamed on the world stage. The robber barons have been PO'd about the rise of the middle class since they lost control and Wall Street gambling was halted in the 30s. In the last 30 years they have recaptured many of their lost assets as the middle class has been stripped and plundered. They destroyed millions of people's defined benefit pensions, then took their IRAs and 401Ks to zero; now, they want to privatize Social Security to bleed that cash flow dry.

The mass populace of American people has traditionally been slaves to their masters. There were large numbers of agrarian substance farmers with few assets. There were large numbers of exploited laborers with no assets. There were a very small number of middle class professionals such as doctors, dentists, attorneys and bankers. We had a very small number of wealthy individuals that were in control of the bulk of the assets with multi-generational fortunes.

Cheap land before the Revolution and the policies of post WWII created 2 brief periods of a large affluent middle class. Andrew Jackson took on the bankers, he did a lot for the average man in his presidency, but he did not build a middle class. The post WWII policies were able to do it with the fact that America was the only country on the world stage that was not rebuilding itself. By the 70s, the oil inflation along with the Vietnam War were causing temporary inflationary issues.

During the 80s, the solution to those short term problems were sold and shoved down our throats as long term solutions . War on the middle class was declared and we lost. 25% real unemployment is with us for the next 10 - 15 years IMO. The gov't counts those drawing unemployment as unemployed. When the benefits run out, you are no longer counted as unemployed, That is how they get it down to 8-9% today, not 20-25% including all of the nonworking and under employed looking for better than burger flipping at the local Burger King.

I'm no genius; just an electrician. If I could see this coming over 20 years ago, why the heck couldn't those who are supposed to be smart enough to run the show?


----------



## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

I have read through the posts and I see statements in many that are plausible and a few are feeling the pain of not having a job. The question is why are there no jobs available because they have been shipped overseas, and what has happened to the American Dream. Here are my opinions and statements as input.
The American Dream always was that you had the freedom to worship in any religion, the right to own property, the right to an education, the right to have a firearm, the right to work … etc., etc.
Today the American Dream has changed: You have the right to own several vehicles, you have the right to worship the $, you have the right to consume as much fuel as you like, you have the right to buy vast property on credit which is way out of your available budget, you have the right to dine out for all your meals, you have the right to consume the greatest amount of food of any other country, you have the right come to America illegally with friends and family, you have the right to add other languages because you can't speak English, you have the right to compensate the legal profession handsomely, you have the right to have medical insurance if you can afford it. Etc., Etc.

As Topamax says, post WWII America was a boom time, it was the only country whose industries had not been bombed or obliterated, so American goods were wanted world wide. Unfortunately nobody understood that one day the desolated customer countries would get back on their feet and would not need US imports. Sales people and advertising agencies never wanted the gravy train to stop, so they invented services, products and compelling advertising to keep sales going in the face of declining post WWII exports. A TV in every room, a new vehicle every year, a second vacation property, a main property which was outrageous in size to accommodate 2 or 4 people, Etc,. Etc. All this was purchased on credit, not real money.

Jobs have been send overseas for the basic reason is that workers overseas are cheaper and they don't have any of the traditional benefits American workers enjoy. I don't believe that cheap imported substandard items are the reason why American industry says it cannot produce items in the US because they will cost more than their Asian imports. This is nonsense; People on this site rave about Festool (German), English turning tools, Router bits from Israel (Amana), Freud (Italy) Milwaukee (Italy), Hitachi saw blades (France) Tormek (Swiss) Etc., Etc. These and more items that excellent tools are imported and NOT CHEAP, but we buy them, and isn't it ironic that foreign automobile manufacturers can set up plants in the US and sell their products at reasonable prices and well engineered?

There are people in the US who are making tons of money by deceptive or illegal practices, fraudulent financial schemes and crime. Unfortunately the American "worker" does not get a piece of the action or is even considered as a desirable employee. It is going to be painful, but things have got to change for the good of the country and the hard working honest citizens. Political parties seem ignorant and offer no solution, just a continuation of the Status Quo. 
We need to "bite the bullet" and take back our country and run it within its means. The US is NOT the richest country in the world because it is in trillions of $ in debt, you can't count debts a collateral (or can you?)

I'll end here, there is so much that can be said by everyone, as individuals we all have different opinions, so please read this post as MY thoughts.

We could start by embracing the ISO Metric system so that we are "in step" with all the other countries in the world and could export items dimensionally acceptable to other countries, it's a start!


----------



## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

The whores in Congress are at the root of the issue. In 1980, there were less than 400 registered lobbyists in Washington DC. As influence went to the highest bidder, that number boomed to over 14,000 by mid-decade past. When Regan left the Oval Office, it was reported that he was paid a million dollars for making a 30 minute speech in Japan. That solidified my forecast for the 21st Century. Today lobbyists are on the decline. Corps and foreign governments buy Congress directly now that the Supreme Court ruled corps have the same rights as an individual in elections. Their contributions to election process do not have to be disclosed.

In short, you are watching the suicide of an economic empire. With the tax breaks for the millionaires and billionaires being extended, expect to see further erosion of the dollar as the deficit soars. Do not be surprised to see a T-bill auction at which nobody wants to buy US debt. Sorry boys, but the game is over!! Just like WWII Germany, totally worthless money with inflation in 100s % per day.

Nothing can change until both the righties and lefties admit their side is just as crooked, if not more so, than the other.

What is your survival plan?


----------



## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Topamax, there's a lot in what you say and it is unfortunate that the average citizen still believes all the BS that is delivered by people who have only their own financial interests and not what is good for the nation and "Joe citizen". IMO parties, candidates and officials should not be financed with corporate "donations", I call that Bribery, which it really is. 
I too saw the signs of the oncoming financial crisis and I tried to inform people at work with the logic that this overindulgent way of living could not survive as all they were doing was increasing their debts. They thought I was nuts, I'm glad that I got myself debt free the year before the crash. 
Independence came from colonists who fought a war because they hated taxes and had little or no representatives in the governing parliament, so don't you feel like we have gone full circle and need another revolution with the same issues?
In this electronic age, wouldn't it be nice to have a yes/no button box attached to your TV showing the government at work, and should a vote be called for, then the citizens use the buttons to vote - now that's real democracy folks…. For the People, By the People


----------



## Marc5 (Apr 1, 2009)

It is easy to blame others but we allowed this to happen. How many out there actually are conscience of what you are buying? Does anyone look to see where it comes from? This is not tools or woodworking accessories it is everything. As I try, it is very very difficult to find anything made here anymore, when I do I will purchase it over the item produced in a foreign land. Every time I drive by a Walmart or stores with similar business models seeing their parking lots completely full , I wonder when people will wake up. It may take a shanty town our back yards to take notice and start to vote in people that will do what is right for us / America and not what is right for their career and pocket book.

Get off of the sofa and Vote!


----------



## rhett (May 11, 2008)

When your out go is greater than your income, your upkeep becomes your downfall.


----------



## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

IMHO, the first step to understanding the problem is to understand what real money is and what fiat money is. The next step is to understand that inflation is not an increase in prices but a devaluation of the money and that inflation is a hidden tax on the American people. The third step is to understand the Federal Reserve and how our money is based on debt to a large extent. The fourth step is to understand how much of our money is created literally out of thin air by the federal reserve and by the banks as they lend money out (not all of it but a good portion of it). The next step is to understand what so called "free trade" is and who determines the rules of the game. The beginning of the last step is to read the Constitution of the United States of America at least ten times slowly with the understanding that it was written so that a man with an average education can understand it and not just the lawyers. Read it with the understanding that it is not a living document that can change with the whims of the politicians and judges in every generation and that it can only be changed through the amending process. Finally, after carefully reading the Constitution, observe the government, the bureaucracies, the treaties that our government signs, and start asking yourself just exactly how much that you see is totally unconstitutional.


----------



## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Gentlemen, I prefer to purchase goods made in America so as to support the country, let alone have a product that is well made. The decision to close factories in the US and send the jobs and manufacturing overseas will not change until our citizens demand that it reverses. To do this is quite simple, hurt their pocketbook by not purchasing tools and the like manufactured overseas, just stop buying the stuff, it's called boycotting.
So who do you vote for, the reds or the blues?, there is no Mr. Smith to send to Washington anymore.

The original Constitution does need parts of it "updated" to reflect "this day and age", but the main body of it should never be changed. The Constitution is on which this country was founded, and all that it describes should be adhered to and the government must abide by this document, else we do not have a country that follows it's own rules. President Kennedy's words echo, "What can your country do for you and it should be What can I do for my country"? Your country needs YOU more than ever before in it's history. We have allowed our country to be raped and pillaged because "We the People" allowed it to happen because we were so infatuated with our own personal American Dreams, and to hell what the cost would be. This has got to change.

Again, I inform you that these are my own opinions and I do not have any magic fixes, but I do now things have got to change.


----------



## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

In the history of the world fiat currencies lasted about forty years on the average. Next year will be the 40th anniversary of our currency becoming totally fiat. It happened in 1971. The Federal Reserve was created in 1913. In less than a hundred years our money has lost around 95% of the value that it had in 1913. This is not rocket science. There has never been a fiat currency in the history of the world that did not end in economic disaster.


----------



## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

My feelings - then I will shut up.
This thread is venting a lot issues, perceptions, ideals, and frustrations. The American dream IS alive and well. The American dream is a set of ideals and determination that makes it work regardless of the obstacles in front of you. I started a business when I became unemployed and the mortgage was due. The company was in an industry that I knew very little and kept it for 13 years. I shut down my business when I determined that it was time and got the job I have now. I am a subject matter expert in multiple industries and fields and believe that it is required to pay my mortgage on time - I signed the contract and it is my word (for those in other countries there are many in this country that feel that they can sign a contract and the government should bail them out when they don't want to pay what they agreed to pay - it is the other people's fault).

The American dream is a "can do" mind set where, "I can and will make this work - even if I must take some detours along the way." It is hard work, it is honesty, it is caring, it is perserverance. This is one of the few countries in the world that allows complete failure and still you can come back and make it work.

Be creative - if you don't like what you have, fix it - it IS all you, no one else can or will do it for you - they can't and won't, THAT is the reality.

No where can I find any of the colonists that came to this country complaining about their problems - all the problems were the same - they had to clear the land, build their houses, feed themselves, and deal with serious weather and critter issues just to live the first year. Their initial supplies were very limited so they didn't have a lot of time to get started - 20 minutes or so?

Prove me wrong and get to it!


----------



## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*rhett* Thanks, George pretty well sums it up. Too bad it isn't funny.

*Just curious Roger,* What part of the Constitution needs to be updated? BEcareful, my 2nd cousin had a big part in writing it ;-)

There is nobody I know of that I would trust to update the Constitution. The Supreme Court is degrading to bunch of politically motivated hacks making rulings without any basis in law.


----------



## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

Topmax, you are absolutely right about that. The one thing that must never come to pass is for a new constitutional convention to be called to "correct the flaws" that are in it. The people who have written about what a disaster a modern constitutional convention would be like like to call it a "con con". There are a large number of states who have called for one at one time or another. It seems like around 25 or even more have. The Constitution is very vague about how a constitutional convention would even be run unfortunately. They say that if the necessary number of states are stupid enough to call for one there would be no way to control it or limit it and that it would be impossible to control what came out of it. The Constitution as we know it could be essentially totally rewritten from front to back. May it never be so. When we think back on the quality of men that were the founding fathers who wrote the Constitution where would we find men like that today. A constitutional convention today would be a disaster.


----------



## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

While I'm nowhere near Rich (under 6 figures anyway) the "Stick it to the rich" crowd is a bit misinformed.
The top 10% pay 3/4 of the federal taxes and the bottom 40 percent get a check from the government. The programs and 'deductions' are more than their total tax bill.
So when 1/2 of the entire working population is paying ZERO towards the federal debt…yet the answer is that "those damn CEO get too much money" while I agree - does nothing for the situation. For the last 10,000 years there are kings, pharoes and industrialists…like Rockefeller, Carnegie, Mellon, and of course back to King Tut! Quit pissing and moaning that 'the man' who started a business and hired you is driving a nicer car than you. guess what the shop foreman makes more money than the mailroom clerk too. And damnit why dont McDonalds employees make 100K a year while your at it??

If you look at the AP report Headline and article: so not FOX news:
*Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax*
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Nearly-half-of-US-households-apf-1105567323.html?x=0&cmtnav=/mwphucmtgetnojspage/headcontent/main/1105567323//date/asc/1/0
"*The result is a tax system that exempts almost half the country from paying for programs that benefit everyone, including national defense, public safety, infrastructure and education. It is a system in which the top 10 percent of earners-households making an average of $366,400 in 2006-paid about 73 percent of the income taxes collected by the federal government.

The bottom 40 percent, on average, make a profit from the federal income tax, meaning they get more money in tax credits than they would otherwise owe in taxes. For those people, the government sends them a payment.*"

What is a fair tax in which everyone should at least contribute something to the system.

Topo focusses on 1980 (really 81 when Reagan actually started) and there are tons of games being played. However the problems really started with the New Deal….so I would say 1935.
While the problems it intended to solve (Social Security) were laudable the Consequence is that our politico's started trading favors from day 1. Instead of being a safety net, our elected idiots let industry off the hook to provide retirement benefits any longer, and just let the government take over that responsibility.
Take the establishment of the Dept. of Energy under Carter - - the task was SOLELY to end our dependance on foreign oil after the embargoes. Instead of that, we are banning incandescent lightbulbs and putting appliance stickers and 'energy star' logos on things while we use more oil than ever.

Then go 1971 and starting a fiat currency…then Nixon to China got the ball really rolling while we watch the massacre at Tianamen Square, but as long as the ships make it to Wal Mart who cares?
Then GATT and NAFTA under Clinton - with all the Assurances that we would RETRAIN for BETTER jobs for teh 21st century…
Problem is we don't get rid of incumbants like Boxer, Murkowski®, Boxer, Reid, Pelosi, and on and on because they "Bring home the bacon". It is always the OTHER states incumbant and pet projects that are the problem.
Obama's debt commission proposed ZERO cuts to any department budget. only limited the increases. REALLY?? Not one dime of reduction anywhere!! Rather it is that we will have programs grow at 3% for the next 3 years rather than 5% etc and calling that 'slashing' the budget!


----------



## Cozmo35 (Feb 1, 2010)

To be brutally honest,...I didn't come here to read about politics, unemployment and all of the BS that goes on in this world. I came here for the learning resource, the comrodery, and the great pieces of wood working. I read about half of the post hoping it would get better and more light hearted. But, it didn't seem to be going in a positive direction so I quit reading. Reality is depressing enough without bringing it here. Come on guys….! Don't polute the best site on the internet. PLEASE!


----------



## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

The man says 25 years experience isn't enough to get a wood working job in the Us and wants to know why. If you are a hobbyist, be thankful yoiu have a job and enough money to buy your toys,


----------



## rhett (May 11, 2008)

No disrepect cozmo, but the "reality is depressing" attitude is one of the key problems with our country today.

There has never been a problem fixed by being ignored.

To all my fellow LJ's readin this thread and feeling uneasy about the future of the US. Get your ducks in a row now, the bumpy road is still ahead.


----------



## Puzzleman (May 4, 2010)

I wonder how many of the people ranting about buy American actually go out of their way to buy from the smallest businesses (artists and crafters)? These people sweat over their products and make it themselves.

Buying American is not just about buying tools. It is about the vastly more money you spend elsewhere in your life. There are many ways you can buy American and many ways you cannot.

On a last note, I agree with cozmo35 in that this is not a political forum. I also come here to learn about woodworking and matters relating to it.

I am surprised at the amount of venom in this thread. We are here to help each other out and, yes, we all have different views of life as we come from different paths to arrive at this point.

I need to get back to my woodworking to pay my bills.


----------



## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Then lets get to it and learn more.


----------



## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Error in the refresh , sorry.


----------



## daltxguy (Sep 7, 2007)

I'm surprised at what people call 'venomous'. It's a discussion and it's healthy. Finally Americans are talking!
The discussion is relevant to woodworking. Without a stable middle class, there is no 'growing' economy in the US only a shrinking one. Anyone who intends to make money with woodworking needs to understand the dynamics of the economy. The housing market was a bubble and a lot of woodworking jobs were derived from that. That's gone and the industry has contracted. So you have to adjust or get out.


----------



## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

I don't suggest anything is really changed Topamax, just that where appropriate, old fashioned words and expressions which are outdated could use bringing into 21st century "language". It would be less difficult for people of this century to comprehend the document, that's one of the reasons a lot of people don't read it.

This discussion asks why there are no jobs for a 25 year veteran with a lot of skills in prominent industries. The responding posts have shown how "some" people are acutely concerned about our economy and indeed, our country. As in a democracy, everyone has the right to express their own opinions and solutions.

The livelihood of wood workers of any caliber is suffering and most are worried and need to talk about it. I do understand that this is a woodworking site, and it is woodworkers who are making posts about this subject and about "wood items" on other posts. I feel happy for those who are not concerned and only seek 100% woodworking items, they are only interested in one thing. For them, perhaps if they make like an Ostrich and bury their heads in the sand, they find a piece of buried wood.

Most of us are ready to try and get the country back on track and make sure we never get into this situation again, for us ALL and future generations.


----------



## lwllms (Jun 1, 2009)

part of an interesting article:

"...Here's a list of stats that I am sure you are already extremely sick of hearing, what we have already passively accepted as the new normal, some new ALL-TIME RECORDS for you:

3 million families foreclosed upon ;
30 million people in need of employment;
43 million people on food stamps;
52 million people in poverty;
59 million people without healthcare;
239 million living paycheck to paycheck;
$144 billion in Wall Street bonuses;
$13 Trillion in investible wealth within 1% of US population.
Ask yourself this question: How sick and depraved of a society do you have to live in to get a outcome like this?

We now have the highest and most severe inequality of wealth in the history of the United States. We have witnessed an economic shock and awe campaign, acts of financial terrorism have improvised tens of millions of people and put our future prospects in an urgently dire situation. We know who is responsible for it, yet nothing is done to hold them accountable, and most astounding of all, the people responsible for this (a financial terrorism network) are still in power!

This is the largest criminal racket in world history. We need prosecutions under the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations (RICO) Act, right now! …"

from: http://ampedstatus.com/i-will-not-participate-in-the-journalism-of-appeasement


----------



## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Buy bullets before you run out of money… Don't forget I told ya'...


----------



## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

Roger, with no disrespect to you, we have a republic not a democracy. I realize that in modern times the term democracy is used rather loosely and that you hardly hear the term republic anymore. Nearly to a man the form of government called democracy was not at all favorable to the founding fathers and, in fact, many of them, if not most, made it clear that a democracy was one of the worst forms of government. With a democracy you are at the mercy of the majority of the people which changes from generation to generation (maybe even month to month) whereas with a republic you are suppose to be governed by law as spelled out in a constitution even if it comes to protecting one citizen against the whims of the majority. We have the Constitution and the government that is set forth in the Constitution is a republic, not a democracy. When Benjamin Franklin left the hall after the Constitution was signed he met a woman who was a good aquaintence who asked him, "Well, Dr Franklin, what form of government have you given to us?" and he said, "Madame, we have given you a republic if you can keep it." ;-) So we have a republic, not a democracy - let's keep it that way. Terms are very important, IMHO.

Of course, I already realize that you know these things since 
'The Republic of Texas" appears under your name. Nevertheless we should really refer to our country in the proper terminology at all times. It is also in the Pledge of Alliegience.

I say this in all respect to you and you know that I love you as a friend, dear Sir.


----------



## dfdye (Jan 31, 2010)

Well, as a micro-counterexample, I just landed a good job. Granted, it has nothing to do with woodworking, but there are good paying jobs out there in the right fields. The hiring freezes that many companies had through the recession are being lifted, but most of the positions I see open are relatively low level, or for people coming in straight out of school. This was the position I was in-I'm finishing my PhD in chemistry and getting an "entry level" job at a company looking for someone they could "mold in their company philosophy." I'm still not sure what that last part really means, but guess I'll find out soon!

I definitely agree that the era of high-wage manufacturing jobs is at an end. Our economy is moving in a high-tech direction, and a college degree is almost mandatory for being able to get a solid job with good benefits. I don't really have too many answers other than to tax the living snot out of every dollar past $1 million that someone brings in each year. That is the only way that I can see reversing the pay gap that we see expanding every year. Maybe then then some of the lower and middle class would share in the huge economic windfalls seen by the wealthiest in our society. It definitely irks me that the bankers who wrecked the economy in the first place are making record profits NOW and are getting tax breaks on top of it all!

Sorry if this is too political for the forum, just my $0.02.

To anyone out there looking for a job, good luck! I know they are out there, but I wish they were more plentiful and paid better!


----------



## dbhost (Jul 20, 2009)

CharlieL, Forget it, you are obviously a hypocrite. You want to talk to me about buy American first, yet you have a Delta 50-760? Sure. Where's your Oneida? What about that Ryobi planer? Not sure about that old one, But I know the newer ones are Chinese…

Just kwitcherbitchin and do something productive with your time. You have the brains and the skills… For the life of me I have no clue why you can't manage to sell your wares. It's not like what you make is copied on some sampan in China… jeeze, go take an economics class would ya?


----------



## Broglea (Dec 9, 2009)

I understand everyones point of view. However, I manage work in a distribution center that offers health insurance, a competetive wage, 401K, dental coverage paid time off, advancement etc,etc. Guess what? I have trouble finding people to fill my current openings. You know what I hear all the time when I interview people? They tell me it is hard finding good work and they will do anything to get hired on full time. More times than not, these same people end up being terminated because they either don't show up for work or they are just plain lazy.

Sometimes its not that good jobs aren't out there, it just that they may not be the jobs you want to do. That's the problem nowadays, nobody wants to put in the effort to achieve the american dream. They much rather it be handed to them and when its not they will go find a forum and find like minded people to make them feel better.

Just my opinion.


----------



## littlevern (Sep 18, 2008)

Pi$$ and moan, Pi$$ and moan. The time of the Unions is in the past. The biggest rapist are the union big shots and congressmen. If you don't want to be held accountable for you actions, Just join the Union. When it comes time for you to face the music. The Union joins forces and threatens a strike. Forcing the companies to back down. The there goes the accountabilities.
Being able to trade worldwide for cheaper and better goods goes back as far as history. It is called Freedom! The biggest threat to freedoms are Unions and life time congressmen.
If freedom does not stand in the United States it will not stand anywhere in the world. Nobody but nobody fights and dies for freedom like American servicemen and women.
Remember "Drill baby Drill"


----------



## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*Broglea* Just curious, what do you call a competitive wage?

*dfdye* Congrats on graduating. That is one of the policies that built the large middle class, tax the snot out of high incomes. It stops speculation in financial markets and provides a stable environment of business to grow. It does grow business enterprises; you plow it back in or give it to the gov't.

*Dave Nesting* I have made 6 figures and have happily paid my taxes because it meant I was doing well. I can tell you from first hand experience that the income tax is nothing. It is the self employment tax or social Security and medi-care taxes that the middle class pays that the top few do not. In the early 80's Regan and Greenspan cut everyone's income taxes. The top dropped from 70% to about 35%. To keep the middle class happy, they got a pittance too. The deficit began to soar. The sold the people on saving Social security and doubled the payroll tax. That money really went into the general fund to pay down some of the deficit. Bottom line if the top got their taxes cut in half and the poor slobs doing the real work got their taxes doubled. Those are verifiable facts of history, not a numbers game propaganda statement.


----------



## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*Vern Little* You live in Colorado; please visit the site of the Ludlow Massacre and read the labor history of the US. People died for everything you take for granted and find socially acceptable today. About 1910, there was a book called The Jungle
that ws published. It was a story about a strong young man who was hired into the meat packing plants of Chicago. They worked him into the ground and took the next in line to replace him. Labor was an expendable commodity. When I started my apprenticeship I walked steel without any safety equipment. It was expected if you wanted to work. Beoing a yoiung kid off the farm, I didn't think much of it at the time, but looking back, I realize nobody really gave a damn about how many men got killed doing those jobs. Well, some did, they passed OSHA shortly after I started


----------



## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

That book, The Jungle did more to bring sweat shop conditions to public attention and cause outrage than any other single event of the era.

In 1900, Teddy Roosevelt said that a man working 8 hours a day should be able to feed his family, buy a house, take a vacation once in a while, go to the doctor if need be, save for retirement and educated his children. That was radical statement at the turn of the 20th Century. Remember, there was no such thing as a teenager; there were children and laborers. Less than 10% graduated high school. The "Breaker Boys" started breaking up blocks of coal coming out of the mines at age 9 or 10 in PA. When they were a big enough, they moved into the mine for the rest of their life. They lived at the company town around the job in a company house and bought groceries at the company store.

We achieved Teddy's dream in the 20th Century, but by the turn of the 21st, it is slipping away. Do you really want to go back? You want what we had before labor unions?


----------



## Broglea (Dec 9, 2009)

Topa - Competitive means not the highest, but not the lowest. We are at the higher end. In addition, when looking at a company, you need to look at the total benefit package. The cost of health insurance is always going up, but hasn't with us. It is extremely short sighted to only look at the wage.

My point is very few people want to work for a living.


----------



## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

helluvawreck: Just shows you how much politics I know. lol I have learned from experience that the designation 
"Republic" in many other countries, especially Africa, makes me shiver and they just don't relate to ours. The Republic of Texas line is just for fun, but the fact is that Texas does have the right to fly its flag at the same height as the stars and stripes, and can secede from the Union if it wants to. This is because Texas was its own country and decided to join the union, so if the "marriage" goes sour then they can get a "divorce"

dfdye: Congratulations in landing a job, I'm sure it has lifted your spirits and I wish you all the luck with it.
I would not object to a flat tax rate for everyone, it seems a fair way to tax. I too express my hopes that all those without a job will find one soon, there is nothing worse than losing your dreams and dignity.

Broglea: Working at a job usually falls into 2 categories; hate it or love it. Working at a job you don't like will undoubtedly affect your work ethics, and those that love what they work at are enthusiastic and happy. Unfortunately in these times, your dream job may not be there, so having to take a job you may not like is common. It takes a really tough and dedicated (to family needs) person to keep going in day after day to a place they are not happy in.


----------



## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

If electricians made what I did as a young journeyman in the early 70s, the "total package" adjusted for inflation would be at least $160/yr. They are no where near that. What is happening is the family wage jobs are not out there. My congressman told me at the last meeting there are lots of employers that cannot find help in this economy. I ask him what they are paying? He said $10-12/hr. What do they expect, to find a young man with a wife and kids living at home with his parents? Competitive to what? Wal-mart? Competitive doesn't mean a living wage job when you are in a race to the bottom.


----------



## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*Roger* you can't even change one comma, let alone reword. Look how much debate their is over the 2nd Amendment by having the word "Militia" in it. at that tiime, every able bodied man between 16 or 18 and 45 to 55 were the Militia and they suppoed their own equipment.

Disclaimer: I, in no way, intend to start a 2nd amendment debate. I only cite it as a gloing example of what changing the wording or even moving a comma could do.


----------



## dfdye (Jan 31, 2010)

*Topamax* Many thanks! Like I said, I have no problem with people getting a big salary, but anything over $1 million/year should be fair game for jacked up tax rates. 70% sure does sound about right. It would definitely encourage reinvestment in the companies, or at least help pay off the insane national debt. I REALLY wish the people complaining about the debt would quit complaining about high taxes out of the other side of their mouth, and conversely I wish the people increasing federal spending would be responsible enough to include the tax hikes to pay for it! I find the suggestion that tax cuts pay for themselves laughable, especially since that theory has been proven absolutely FALSE over the past 10 years! OK, I am bordering on a rant, so I'll leave it there. Sorry. . .

*Back on topic:* I'll readily cop to buying a bunch of imported tools. They really are cheaper than what is made domestically, and I HONESTLY don't know of any power tools being produced in the USA. Even the new Unisaw is made all over the world, and a couple of parts are slapped together in the states.

What I DO try and buy locally are:
-Produce: We have an excellent farmer's market, a bunch of local dairies, and several farms that sell meat. This is pretty easy to do around Indiana.
-Lumber: I have ready access to the greatest hardwoods in the world at amazing prices. Why would I buy anything not cut and milled around here? The exception is sheet goods. I don't know a local manufacturer for those. 
-Yard Stuff: My wife and I have been doing a lot of landscaping, and we have only gotten stuff from local nurseries, not the big box stores. We recently did a lot of stone work and bought from a local quarry. 
-Daycare: Not an insubstantial investment, let me tell you! Not that I could really buy from India, but it still is $$$ going into the local economy. 
-Art and Entertainment: Yea, this is a small part of my overall budget, but I still like to support the vibrant theater we have locally as well as the independent artists that make everything from jewelry to sculpture. Even a few buck spend at a local gallery on a small painting makes a huge difference in terms of ensuring that local artists (and woodworkers) can survive.

The list goes on, but I think you get the point. Other than smaller tool manufacturers like Lie-Nielsen, Blue Spruce, Bad Axe, and other niche makers, I don't know any major tool companies that build their products in the states, especially not power tool manufacturers! I could definitely be wrong, but most of the stuff I see with a "Made in the USA" label has been minimally assembled from parts made overseas.

The argument I don't get is how buying domestic used equipment is better for our economy. I always try and shop local flea markets for used tools when I need something, but at that point there is no difference between a Hitachi and a Delta! The reseller still gets the same price regardless of the country of origin. I don't quite follow the line of logic of committing exclusively to buying used domestic tools other than having some brand loyalty-it won't support any manufacturing jobs. If there is something I am missing, I would love to hear. Honestly! If there is more logic here, I really do want to understand.

Finally, I do appreciate that there seems to be half of this thread that is staying quite civil! Quite a great departure from many of the discussions that I have participated in on this topic. Thanks to everyone for being friendly, and a big STFU to those who aren't playing nice. Some of us are actually interesting in hearing the opinions of those with whom we disagree, and are quite happy to be friends with those people despite our differences of opinion!  Here's to being friendly!


----------



## dfdye (Jan 31, 2010)

Here's a story I think might be topical:

I bought a Grizzly 14" band saw today, and it came down to that or a . . . Nothing. Really, nothing else even was in the running once I did my homework.

Honestly, I could't figure out another saw in my price range (under $500) that even came close. The comparable Powermatic was $900, the Delta was $750 and the Jet was $800. In that price range, I could either get the delux Rikon 14", or I could step up to a Grizzly 17"! I even spec'ed out the upgrades on a HF special to see how it would compare, and even that was almost a wash. Lord knows I would rather buy the Grizzly for a few extra bucks than have to deal with balancing band saw wheels and re-machining parts for a week.

Should I have bought one of the more expensive saws? Well, that would mean less money for me to spend on lumber, and that takes cash out of my hardwood dealer's hand. Should I have bought a General since it is at least made on this continent? Well, that still doesn't do much for domestic jobs, and I still can't buy the lumber that I would have otherwise bought with my tool savings. Did I mention the guy I buy lumber from cuts and dries his own stock, so every dime I spend with him stays in my home town?

Bottom line: is it a better investment to buy a foreign made tool and spend the savings locally, or to buy a "domestic" tool that was primarily built overseas and cut into my "local" spending budget? For me, at least, this particular choice was pretty clear.

*Roger* Thanks. It definitely was a nice Christmas present, finding out I had a "real" job.

I don't think a flat tax is anywhere near the answer though. It does nothing to ameliorate the wage gap. I love the idea in abstract (everyone treated equally by the tax code, no penalty for success, etc.), but abstract policy doesn't seem to be working too well for us lately. We need something to address the real wage inequity present in our economy, and a regressive flat tax would only encourage higher wages at the top end. Maybe a flat tax for the first $250K and then ramping it up from there? I love compromise!


----------



## Broglea (Dec 9, 2009)

Roger - I agree with you working falls mostly into two categories. Most of us need to or have worked at a job they didn't like in order to survive. My only point is there are too few people wanting to do what is necessary to survive.

I don't know anything about the gentleman who started this post. He may never find work as a "high end wood worker", but he can find a job. Even if the media tells us there are no jobs out there.


----------



## stevenhsieh (Jan 8, 2010)

You can still buy Amercian products but double the price.

*Disc Sander*
http://www.burrking.com/

*Hydraulic Ironworking Machines*
http://www.edwardsironworkers.com/

*Vertical Bandsaw*
http://www.hemsaw.com/

*Wrench*
http://www.wrighttool.com/

*Automotive Tools*
http://www.lislecorp.com/

*Drill bit*

http://www.redlinetools.com/

http://www.montanabrandtools.com/

*Cutting Tool*

http://www.titanman.com/

http://www.kodiakcuttingtools.com/

*Air tools*
http://www.airtools.com/

*Garden Tools*
http://www.bullytools.com/

*Hand tools*
http://www.ramelson.com/

http://www.chapmanmfg.com/

http://www.leatherman.com/

http://www.apextoolgroup.com/

http://www.eklindtool.net/

*Welding*

http://www.classicnozzles.com/

http://www.atlaswelding.com/

*Screws*
http://moodytools.com

*Ladder Hook*
http://www.hookumdano.com/

*Tool Belt*
http://www.bestbelt.com/index.html


----------



## dfdye (Jan 31, 2010)

Broglea, I agree that there are jobs out there where people "can survive," but should that be our social goal-that everyone can at least survive? You have mentioned that you have had some slackers come through your company, and have had to let people go. Obviously these people aren't going to have the opportunity to hold a good job for long, but do you think this means that good jobs should not exist?

Obviously many are willing to put in the time and effort to land and keep a good job, but there really is a shortage of middle-class job opportunities right now. Should we give up on middle class job creation since there are still farm laborer positions out there? Sure, I could have gotten a job at McDonalds, but it would not have paid my bills.

How about this for specifics: my backup plan in case I didn't get a "real job" soon was an adjunct faculty position at a college 50 miles away from my home. The salary was $30,000/year, which isn't bad, but it is WELL below market for a PhD chemist. I was perfectly willing to take that while hunting for a permanent position, but it would have meant that I would have been making less with a PhD than I did with a bachelor's degree!

Technically, that adjunct position was "a job" that was out there (media claims to the contrary notwithstanding), but it definitely was not the type of job I was hoping for. Should I have been happy with that adjunct position, or would I have been justified in lamenting the lack of a decent job opportunity?


----------



## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I had a thread asking about an appliance lift a few days ago. I found what I needed. I emailed to ask where they were manufactured. They both came from the same plant in Kentucky or Tennessee ;-))
I don't think you can really judge the whole of the work force by a few experiences or one person's experience. I have heard all my life that people are lazy and won't or don't want to work. What I have seen as an employee is management's inability to have tools and materials available on a timely basis for the workers to get the job done. What I have seen as a foreman/superintendent and employer making payroll out of my own wallet is most people will work to their ability if layout, tools and material are available to them to do a day's work. Over the last 45 years or so, I have concluded people bring a lot of these problems on themselves. With that said, there are definitely lazy, incapable and shrewd who are looking to milk the system dry.


----------



## dfdye (Jan 31, 2010)

Steven H: Thanks for the list. I actually own a couple of Leathermans and Eklind tools, so I think I get some bonus points! 

I checked out the vertical Hemsaws just because of my band saw purchase, and let's just say they weren't really in my price range, even if I could somehow fit one in my garage! LOL!


----------



## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Topamax::
Seems words like yea and nay belong way back in history - do they mean more than yes or no? You might want to consider adding Esq after your name. lol

dfdye:
Your job acquisition will certainly add to your Christmas cheer, enjoy.
The $250k flat tax sounds promissing.
You will love the Grizzly, they are made in an ISO certified factory where quality control is closely monitored.

Broglea:
The media is part of our problem, feeding untruths, sensational gossip etc., to keep money rolling in from advertisers. At Grocery store checkouts you see papers and magazines with obtuse headings - Man with 2 heads grows mustache on one head", "Kennedy still alive and living in Cuba" etc.

This has indeed been a very nice cordial exchange of thoughts, concerns and ideas about the current crisis we find ourselves in. We don't all share the same ideas and philosophies, but we can talk civilly about our concerns and perhaps learn or understand more from topics and posts given.

Thanks to all for a most interesting and enlightening discussion as friends. Well Done.


----------



## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*dfdye* IMO, $30k isn't a reasonable salary for a Phd in 2010. That is why I dropped out of college. I was making more than a graduate engineer who lived next door when I was a 2nd yr apprentice. The math professor who tipped me off had a Phd on the end of his EE.

Today I got a letter in the mail that was a cold call résumé. I guess that is what you would call a résumé mailed with no previous contact?? Sort of like a cold call sales pitch?? The guy is my age and more qualified on paper to be me than I am ;-) Master electrician, BA degree and 40 yrs experience. I felt bad that some one my age would be in that position to be looking for work instead of retirement. Over ½ the electricians in this area are out of work and at least half the contractors have gone out of business. My business in 2009 was 10% of what it had been. 2010 is better. I consider myself very fortunate to not have to worry about it even after surviving Merrill Lynch and Topamax malpractice.

That reminds me of another letter I got today. Another class action suit for stocks we used to own. It seems like every one of them has some action against management for lying to the shareholders to drive the price up during the dot com boom or cooking the books for the same reason.


----------



## Broglea (Dec 9, 2009)

dfdye - "Social goal" can open a whole new debate. Middle class today enjoy luxuries that the middle class didn't have twenty years ago. People spend good money on cell phones, high speed internet, eating out frequently, cable and such. Maybe its not so much the wage as it is our lifestyle. I'm no economist.

I don't usually leave comments on threads such as this. Not sure why I did tonight but probably won't revisit this. I'm on LJ for woodworking. I appreciate and respect everyones perspectives so far. Have a great Christmas guys.


----------



## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*Roger* Forget Esq after it, try lord before it ;-) sounds a lot better! You mention the media being a problem. That gets back to taking the limits off the number of media outlets a single entity can own. We used to have domestic competition. Seems like every issue you look at in the current crisis is rooted in removing the limitations that were put in place after the Great Depression.


----------



## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*Broglea*, Been good havinig you here if only briefly. Hope you have a good Christmas too! And, everyone else! ;-)


----------



## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

This has been very interesting.

Topamax-Congress started looting Social Security for the General Fund in the late 1960s, every congress has done it since, putting IOUs in place of the money. To date, congress owes the taxpayers over 1 trillion dollars in Social Security. Now that-would pay a nice retirement - Reagan had nothing to do with it. Congress actively wants to "redo" Social Security to wipe out these IOUs, nothing more. The increase in Social Security contributions was in response to previuosly taking too much out of the coffers, it is easy to take the money away without announcing it and declare a crisis, which is what they do - every year.

A flat income tax would be better - everybody pays 8% - make $100 pay $8.00; make $1,000,000 pay $80,000.00; you make money, you know what you are going to pay - done. Reduce IRS by 60% - good again.

In my carreer(s) I have had to change direction many times. I am sure that many of you that are getting long in the tooth have as well. This is called change. The entire job market world wide is evolving. In India, as their economy gets closer to matching ours (USA), their prices will start to match ours, its the laws of economics. There are other countries that are becoming targets of opportunity that are in line to compete with India and are.

The problem as I see it, and I have been guilty of it too so I am not targeting anyone, we get comfortable in what we have been doing. When we lose our job, we tend to scramble back to the same job category but it is no longer there. So, we wait for another one to come along - not good.

We are woodworkers, whether by trade or hobby, we take interesting woods, grains, colors and build something completely different that is beautiful. Sometimes we have to do this with our careers and take a piece of this experience, a piece of that experience and either create a new source of income or get hired into a new direction. This recently happened to my son in law - had a good stable job and was laid off. He was in a niche career path. He is now making twice as much doing something completely different in a different city - he hates it but it pays the bills.

I hope that everyone in LJs have a tremendous holiday season and may next year be the first year of something much better than the past years - whatever your situation!


----------



## lwllms (Jun 1, 2009)

David,

I don't think you've got the facts right. The Social Security surplus, and it's generated a surplus every year of its existence, has always gone into Treasury Bonds. This is by law and it's been that way from day one. It's not just Social Security money in treasury bonds, that's where the National debt is located. Lots of wealthy people buy Treasury Bonds, even much of the TARP money that was supposed to flow into the banking system to free up credit went into Treasury Bonds. The financial industry got billions at no interest and bought Treasury Bonds at a nice profit and no risk. It's not the way it was supposed to work but it's why Wall Street is well off and the rest of the Country is in the crapper.

BTW, Social Security is solvent as it is right now until the year 2039 and by then the baby boom crisis will be over and Social Security would be just fine.

The power structure of this Country doesn't want to make good on the Treasury Bonds purchased by Social Security but they sure as hell expect the Government to make good on the Treasury Bonds they hold. What this amounts to is selective default on the National debt. The wealthy get their bonds honored but the working people take the hit. Unfortunately it's going to happen, George Carlin had that right.


----------



## rivergirl (Aug 18, 2010)

"How about this for specifics: my backup plan in case I didn't get a "real job" soon was an adjunct faculty position at a college 50 miles away from my home. The salary was $30,000/year, which isn't bad, but it is WELL below market for a PhD chemist. I was perfectly willing to take that while hunting for a permanent position, but it would have meant that I would have been making less with a PhD than I did with a bachelor's degree"-a tiny biline to the overall conversation- but in terms of economics and need for a strong labor union- well- colleges/universities hire adjunct and part-timers because they are CHEAPER than full time professional faculty. What does that say for higher education in the US? I can tell you it says nothing positive or good. One singe example of cheaper cheaper cheaper salaries while cost of education keep rising rising rising… and the level of education and level of intellectual skills possessed by students upon graduation keeps declining and declining. Sad testament to our society. If we don't value education, if we cannot/do not/will not make the commitment to hire the best people to teach our children and young adults then how can we expect to create a competitive workforce in any market, especially a global one. I Japan teachers are high revered and respected professionals. They are treated well and paid well. But, if you want to be a teacher, you have to be at the TOP of the intellectual pile. None of this hire the dumbest blonde with the biggest boobs who is the daughter of the dumbest school board member for the Japanese. This whole societal mess that we find ourselves in in completely disheartening, and quite frankly, it disgusts me. It is appalling that employers use the economic excuse to abuse employees- to work them like slaves, with hold bonuses etc. etc… Yes, sadly most people at some point in their lives take jobs that SUCK and do the work just to get by. But I for one and really over that.. and the tent city in Florida would be a better option than going back to that crappy BS grind, that dark fantasy land… "I love this job.. this job loves me… I pretend to work… they pretend to pay me… If I just keep my mouth shut and stay under the wire (despite the need to speak out) I won't cause a wave and maybe they won't fire me…. etc. etc… " I have no idea where this country is headed, but I choose to stay home and grow my garden. No TV. Nothing.


----------



## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Actually, I do have the facts right, if I remember correctly, the first year that money was actually taken out of Social Security to put into the general fund was in 1968. It IS a violation of the charter of Social Security, it IS illegal, and every year Congress takes a minimum of 3 billion out of Social Security every year and the highest was, if memory serves me right, is 16 billion in one year. A short while later, they announce that Social Security is almost bankrupt and needs to be fixed. This is something that I have been questioning Congress for many years and if you ask your representative, they will talk around you and not really say yes or no. Actually had one Congressional aide admit this was going on. This is why Pres Clinton even made the statement when he asked to increase contributions that the last thing they wanted to do was to start paying the "notes" to Social Security.

There are many things that Social Security pays for that are a violation of the charter but this is not the place. You can ask Social Security under the "freedom of information act" and you may have to pay for the printing costs but the information is there.


----------



## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Equate this economy and mentality to a clock with a pendulum. It is swinging and when it gets to a point, it will start to come back. Until then, hang on, the ride may be bumpy. I work for a school system and I have been watching co-workers get laid off, we have not had pay increases for 3 years, and the list goes on. Everybody has been saying it. Hold on.


----------



## littlevern (Sep 18, 2008)

Topamax, Yes I have visited the Ludlow Massacre site. As I said there was a time for Unions. I think that time has passed. When workers could work for GM for 20 then retire with the same wages and benefits as before. Even now the union workers can make upwards of $30-$40/HR. Then you wonder why the "tax payer" (THE GOVERNMENT BELONGS TO THE PEOPLE) had to bail them out.
I thank God they didn't invade the oilfield. Here you are required for what you do; you must stand on your own 2 feet. Too often when you belong to a Union you get slapped down for doing something that is "not your job". Here if you step out and show initiative you are rewarded for it. Even considered for a promotion when there is an opening. What happens in a Union when that is done???
This day and age we have "labor boards" and "human relation" to protect the people's rights.
How long will freedom last if we keep on giveing up our rights? When the government can tell you what you must buy(health insurance) and how much you pay someone. That is a loss of freedom. When I was growing up you could get a job in the summer, iff you could do the work. Now a 16 yr old kid can't get a job. Nobody is allowed to hire him tho take out the trash.
I believe it was "Thomas Jefferson" who called our government an experiment, check it out.


----------



## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

A phrase that I have heard more and more-

Recession is when your neighbor gets unemployed, depression is when you get unemployed.


----------



## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

rivergirl:
I hear you. Education is our highest priority for our future survival, but not only do we need to respect and reward our teachers, we have give them the oportunity to bring education up to date.
I taught at college for 9 years, in fact the reason I am in America stems from being recruited some 34 years or so because I had first hand knowledge of current engineering practices. I was appauled when I saw the curriculum being used, the methods and information were 20 to 40 years out of date, so the project of creating a new curriculum was given to me. If I say it myself, I did a good job at bringing the curriculum into current practices, I was honored by the college for my work and was promoted to senior professor.
The new curriculum worked well and students graduated and found good jobs as they were "up to date" in the skills required and I personally felt great satisfaction in seeing my students succeed. So why did I quit teaching? Well a curriculum is only good if it is kept up to date and reflects current methods and practices. Requests to update the curriculum were denied, so as I was not prepared to teach obsolete technology, I quit. IMO you just cannot keep repeating out of date material if you expect students to excel in today's world.

But this attitude has origins in companies too. John Dyson, an industrial engineering designer, came up with a design for a more efficient vacuum cleaner, and not being a manufacturer, he sought to present his design to major vacuum cleaner manufacturers to adopt his design. The first company he approached was Hoover but they turned it down because his design did away with replacing bags and that is where Hoover and others gravy trains were. He did the rounds to all the manufacturers and got the same argument, so eventually he started a small manufacturing company, and the rest is history. Dyson is an industrial designer and has many great designs in other products up his sleeve on the premise that they work better than what is available. To his credit Dyson founded an industrial design school which is open to anyone with an aptitude for designing. The point in all this is that because the big vacuum cleaner manufacturers were not interested in making a better product, they were just interested in their old fashioned bag sales. Now they are all scrambling to circumvent Dyson's' patent.

Someone mentioned the auto industry, similar practices have brought down those high and mighty manufacturers too. It takes a lot to understand why an auto manufacturer would make essentially the same vehicle and sell it as a different brands and models, it's called badge engineering. Can anyone remember when the little Honda CVCC appeared here? People and US manufacturers scoffed at it, but they don't scoff at Honda today.
If a manufacturing company's mission is to offer products that they want to sell and not necessarily what the customer needs or wants, then trouble lies down the road, especially if the basic designs are outdated and come under a multitude of disguises. The US auto industry has still not fully understood the problem but has made some improvements.

To sum all this up, the word is CHANGE. The reluctance to update our practices in education and manufacturing is one of our greatest problems. We even won't accept the Metric system that the world uses, why? Education and manufacturing today should be a vibrant up to date experience, not a history lesson.
I acknowledge that this does not apply to all industries, but it exists with a great portion of our educational and manufacturing establishments.


----------



## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

THis has been a wonderfully spirited by civilized debate.
The problem I see is that while fostered by the media we decend into class warfare. And ignore the politiciants and trade deals and corporate lobbying to fully screw us - - as George Carlin described in his skit posted earlier.

David in Indiana - Congrats on the PhD in Chemistry - - this is also my field PhD 1996 Penn State.
I work for a big multinational - and am right about to crack that six figure number. I also take home 51.6% of my salary. I think that once you spend a few years in that new postion your idea about higher taxes being the solution will change.

I want to use your bandsaw example…
You bought a grizzly and it is indeed a good saw. But you mentioned how you could not 'justify' considering paying that 750 to 900 for a Jet, Delta or Powermatic. (by the way I have the Delta X5 made here and it cost me 899). So you sent your 500 dollars to China (or Taiwan) instead of spending 900 dollars in the good ol USA. I would point out that you will likely never need to buy another bandsaw as a hobbyist.

While at the same time folks in the US are being laid off.

We have been discussing the decline in manufacturing and trade imbalances - but you choose not to buy the products made here, and instead "Tax the snot out of the millionaires".

The Harbor Freighters and you should stand in front of the Mirror and say "My buying decisions are the reason unemployment is 10%" The pro union guys go buy crap at HF and Wal Mart and still have the gall to complain about nobody buying American because it is too expensive.

Charlie has the right approach that although it is not possible anymore to buy 100% American we make that effort. If we just say Oh Well there is no choice in the market and buy the import versions…nothing will ever change. A vote with the checkbook is more powerful than a ballot.


----------



## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Unions, if we are to go down that road, are interesting organizations. From what I have seen, and the working relationships that I have had with unions, they do have a place. If you are a govt employee - local, state, or federal - don't know about other countries, but I would expect there are variations everywhere you go, you cannot strike, and whats more, an employee cannot negotiate. You are put into a job classification and the union is unable to negotiate by contract, any specific person or job classification. They can only do the whole. This said, the union has become a tool to be manipulated by management. Their value to a single employee is almost nil but although people can vote a union out, they won't because individuals are now more scared of the unions than the employer. Once a union is in place, they control who is hired and who isn't, if you are non-union, you are a "scab" and then take you life in your own hands - literally. I came from a union town, I have seen people try to break a union and lives were lost. The only times I have seen unions put in check were when Pres Reagan with the traffic controllers and several companies that told their unions point blank that the unions either impliment what the company wants or they were closing their doors.


----------



## JBfromMN (Oct 19, 2010)

helluvawreck said it best!!! To understand where we are today you have to understand the Federal Reserve. All LJs are bright people, but go ask the common man who is the federal reserve and then ask them if they are part of the federal government or not. You may be surprised at the responses you get.

Truely understanding the Federal Reserve and what Fractral Reserve Banking is, you will come to the conclusion that I have. ALL of our troubles began in 1913….....


----------



## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

Roger, this was very well said. It reminds me of what happened in the American woodworking machinery manufacturing arena. I'm talking of the manufacturers that made machinery for furniture manufacturers here in America, not the market that sells to hobby woodworkers. For years these manufactures made the same old heavy equipment hardly changing much from year to year or coming up with new machinery that had the potential to revolutionize how furniture was manufactured. Well, shortly after World War II the Europeans started to make innovative inroads into this American Market with completely modern and innovative equipment that revolutionized the furniture industry. Because of this as well as the big lawsuits from injured workers the American woodworking machinery manufacturers started going downhill big time. Of course the last straw was the free trade agreements. That industry is now just a small portion of what it once was. It's very sad.


----------



## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Dave - you are correct in a fashion but everybody including the big manufacturers do this. More than a little of Ford, GM, and Chrysler are metric - you know why, most components are made overseas - because it is cheaper. When I built computers, I was priced out of the market because instead of buying a $12 power supply from Indochina that were fire hazards, I bought $125.00 power supplies made in the USA that were electrically safe. Same thing with other components - production line motherboards are all made in Taiwan and were in the 1990s except for Intel, they were made in Puerto Rico but cost 50 times more. Didn't do me any good to build all American because people would not buy a desktop computer for $10,000 when they could buy a Packard Bell for $600.00 and they still went out of business (so did I).

I saw the writing on the wall then. Since then I have made it a point to pay my house off as fast as I can, keep my resume tuned, look at other career possibilities all because-you never know what tomorrow will bring.

Good postings, good thread - even though this is not "WOODWORKING" it is bringing a lot of anxiety, frustration, and in some cases hostility to the forefront.

Hopefully it gets all of us thinking about the possibilies - anybody remember Remington Steele, the episode where he talks to Laura about his freind that owned a ship? The Capt. was telling Steele. as they were looking at the ship in the harbor, that he just finished paying off the ship. Just then the ship blew up and the Capt laughs out loud. Steele asked him if he was nuts. The Capt looked at him and says, "Don't you see, everything from here is new - think of the possibilies!" It was a good show. From what I see, this has happened or is happening to a lot of people on this board.


----------



## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

The irony is that most of our are saying pretty much the same thing in countlessly different ways but the results are the same - there are a serious amount of people that are not happy with what is going on around them and they are upset, some are scared, everyone is concerned and taking notice.

This is a great thing and this is when things happen - because - like the really creative things we make, we make changes in what we do, how we do them, and what we say, ...


----------



## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Martin - Thank you for letting this thread continue. As for me, I think it has been healthy and needed and is just as important as how long it takes for varnish to cure.


----------



## dfdye (Jan 31, 2010)

Wow, everyone playing nice! How refreshing!

*Dave Nesting* Just to follow up since I am a little confused-are you saying that the Delta X5 is made in the USA? That was not the impression I got from reading up and talking to the folks at the local Woodcraft where I would have bought one. I could certainly have gotten bad information. Regardless, though, I would have spent twice as much on the Delta, and I am not sure how much extra cash would have been kept in the States. Grizzly does indeed have people that work at their distribution centers and show rooms in America, even though the machines are built overseas. How much of the money I spent will go towards them keeping their jobs?

I certainly don't know the "right" answers, but I am comfortable with my personal attempts to keep much of my spending local, especially so regarding people with whom I have built personal relationships (such as my wood guy). Yes, I do buy some things from HF, and I don't make apologies for that. I don't know a domestic manufacturer for most of the products I get there, and I certainly understand that their quality typically reflects the price I pay. Case in point, I used a 16 ga air nailer from HF last night that is a clone of a Hitachi that cost almost 5 times as much. I can't justify a Senco or Passlode for the amount of time I spend using the tools, so the choice for me is to buy a cheap one and replace it later if/when it wears out, or not buy one in the first place. Same with my HF pinner. Should I simply forgo these purchases or spend the money with a company that provides some employment to the people in their stores?

Yes, I certainly understand why shopping at HF and WalMart contribute to overseas manufacturing relocation, but I simply don't know many domestic manufacturers of home-shop power tools! All of the Porter Cable, Delta, DeWalt and Skill tools are made overseas, or at least the majority of the components from which they are assembled! Should I spend more on those than on a tool from HF that will serve my purpose as well? If I were a contractor, the answer would be to buy for durability, but I simply don't wear tools out (OK, so I have blown up a router before, but that is a rare example). Maybe Milwaukee tools are still made in the USA-I don't know, but discussion has definitely encouraged me to check.

How about this: I just got a couple of old Bailey had planes and they will need new blades. My choices are either IBC or Hock. IBC is made in Canada and Hock are obviously made in the USA. I already own two IBC plane blades that I bought at Woodcraft since they didn't have any of the Hock blades of the size I needed in stock, and I REALLY have loved them, but I'll make a pledge now to buy Hock blades instead of the IBC, just to support domestic tool manufacturing. OK, I'll admit that I already had decided to buy Hock blades to compare the two brands, so this is a slightly disingenuous pledge, but I guess in the spirit of the thread, I'll consider it a win for domestic manufacturing! 

Thanks again to everyone for keeping things civil! This really is turning into a great discussion, and is raising some great issues for tool purchasing decisions. I certainly have learned a lot, especially from Stephen H's great list of domestic tool manufacturers. This is certainly great woodworking information, and regarding varnish curing, I let danish oil sit for ~12 hours between coats, even though you should probably wait closer to 24. It just works for me. 3 coats X 12 hours, buff with a paper grocery bag between coats, let it sit after that for about a week, and you are set!


----------



## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*dfdye* Canada is like a 51st state, so I consider Canadian items to be domestic )


----------



## dfdye (Jan 31, 2010)

Haha! I didn't want to go there, but so do I in many regards. I wish Veritas the best!


----------



## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*"I don't think you've got the facts right. The Social Security surplus, and it's generated a surplus every year of its existence,"* That is nearly true. I don't have the figures on the top of my head but there was only a year or 2 during recessions that it dipped slightly negative. That is the excuse Regan used to "save SS" when he shifted the bulk of the tax burden form the millionaires and billionaires to the middle class. WE currently have a pile of IOUs in the "SS Trust Fund"; ie, we owe ourselves quad-gillions of dollars to fund it!

*"Congress started looting Social Security for the General Fund in the late 1960s"* That is true; the cost of the Vietnam War was turning the budget very negative. Johnson got the bright idea to combine the payroll tax with income tax in the general fund to hide the cost of the war. Bush didn't have that option, so the Iraq and Afghanistan were not included in the budgets. They were funded by special appropriations. I don't believe the people would have tolerated either if they had been told the truth. That is how he ran the biggest national debt yet and finished breaking the US.

*the day of unions is past* No, the day of union abuses is past. I saw a lot of it in the 70s in the construction trades. In the 80s, things changed, the lazy went to work or were booted out. As a friend of mine who was active in the AIM at a local commercial aircraft manufacturer put it, why the side that has the advantage have to try to destroy the other? That is precisely what the short sited bast&^ds do every time. The sweat shop are still thriving. KING% TV in Seattle just ran a series on immigrant workers spending 45 minutes sewing items that were sold retail and to the Us for soldiers in the two wars. The mostly Asian women were getting 60 cents for the 45 minute job.

I think the late Senator Howard Metzenbaum summed up the problem very nicely on the eve of the Bush-Clinton election. He was being interviewed on CBS 60 Minutes I believe. He was telling how Congress argued during the day, lived in the same condo building and drank and partied together in the evening. He said it didn't really matter who won the election tomorrow, the country will go on just fine as it always has. I believe that is the problem; short sightedness and failure to fully access the consequences of ones actions. That is what brought this economy to its knees, idiots in powerful positions that were not capable of realizing that what they were doing was not sustainable.


----------



## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

I just wanted to say that I love all of you wonderful guys and you too rivergal.  If I left any other gals off that posted on this thread it was an over site.  I too am glad that Martin didn't do away with this thread because I figured it was headed into oblivion and I'm glad that it didn't go there. I realize that we all have many differences but we all have many things in common as well. I appreciate all of your comments and all of the different points of view. If we all thought just alike LJs would be a mighty boring place. 

God Bless you all and I hope that everyone of you and all of your families have a very merry Christmas and a wonderful New Year.


----------



## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Topo - please go back further than 1980 sometime. through the 50's and 60's there were indeed the surplusses in SS. However the system was "Fixed" first by Carter - and he more than TRIPLED the mandatory witholding from 2 to 6.15% of your gross pay!

From WIki:
To combat the declining financial outlook, in 1977 Congress passed and Carter signed legislation fixing the double-indexing mistake. This amendment also altered the tax formulas to raise more money,[47] increasing withholding from 2% to 6.15%.[48] With these changes, President Carter remarked, "Now this legislation will guarantee that from 1980 to the year 2030, the Social Security funds will be sound."[49] This turned out not to be the case. The financial picture declined almost immediately and by the early 1980s, the system was again in crisis. So the 1980 changes were from Mr. Peanut not Reagan!
Unions thrive on conflict - otherwise nobody would support paying dues. So unions foster resenment and class warfare. Unions helping the workin class thruly SOLVE issues is the same as Al Sharpton wanting to SOLVE race issues.

In our industry the unions fight modernization and any automation because it affects the headcount. So while companies would see an opportunity to modernize and be able to compete (Like Boeing) they get strike threats over lost jobs and PRESTO subassemblies are made in China.
WHile also violent I saw unions like the teamsters (trucking only ) as a general positive, because there was an opportunity for the scattered employees driving to get a unified voice - the approach makes sense.

If you want the up close and personal of what a disaster education is in this country look at Tenure and the teachers unions…most recently in DC - forcing the resignation of Michelle Rhee for firing the underperforming teachers…scores were rising. How in a american system of ANYTHING is it that if you do a decent job for 3-5 years you are guaranteed employment for life, unless you go to a clock tower and start shooting or hae sex with an 8 year old you are completely untouchable!
Our local teachers are crying about cuts… in fact the budget is 9% higher than last year. BUt according to the UNION accounting rules, the budget* request *was a 12% increase and since they got 9% it is called a *CUT*

Then there are the standards - for progressing to the next grade you have to have a 1.0 GPA and not fail more than one class. That is a really crappy place to set the bar for education and global competitiveness but lets thank the NEA!


----------



## surfin2 (Oct 24, 2009)

One of the many problems in the USA 
America is full of "Temporary" workers from outside the USA #1 Mexico… 
I remember when the media blamed Americans for not wanting to work on farms cause they didn't pay enough. So that made it OK for illegal Mexicans to work in the USA. Low wages & long hours plus room & board, but then they don't mine living like sardines, they can grab a bag & there gone. The smart ones look for an American girl to move in with & let her pay all the bills & send there money home (western union Walmarts) to there family (wife & kids) they'll work here for 8 to 10 months then its feasta time. Are money goes a long way in there country. It cost 6000.00 to get here, the coyotes know just where there needed, how many, who pays the best.
Last year at this time they went to Canada, they couldn't take the cold so it was off (down) to Florida. must be nice… 
There getting sick of the low wages & the long hours & there branching out into everything. They now took over our landscaping & carpentry in my area, 
Some are paid under the table others are paid legally but there either using a fake name or S.S.# 
There living, working, driving illegally some are even having kids here, keeping the door open for when they want to come back,,, 
It all started with the Race Track here… 
Farms - Landscaping - Carpentry -There Taking Over…
There into everything now…


----------



## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Excellent points Rick - our politicians aggrement to 'look the other way' and sue states like Arizona for cracking down is simply a legalization of slavery in the US.
The open borders crowd would love for everyone to believe that these were jobs americans didn't want, when the issue is that most americans wouldn't work in the lettuce fields for what ammounted to around 3 dollars an hour (since they pay by the basket not by the hour) just watch Stephen Colbert on working in the farms.
So they found a population to be paid crap under the table and to abuse the workers since they couldn't complain and face deportation.Of course Meg WHitmans housekeeper was really abused at 23 bucks an hour!


----------



## juniorjock (Feb 3, 2008)

Its about that time, Martin…....... or whoever is in charge today…
- JJ


----------



## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Dave Nesting, I am not writing the history of SS system. The point I am trying to make is the shift of the mass of the tax burden from the people who have money to those who do not. If the Bush tax cuts on the millionaires and billionaires were allowed to expire *"the typical worker would see his taxes go up $40,000 on his bonus."* Who do you think they are talking about? Who makes enough to have to pay $40,000 more in taxes on their typical bonus? That $40,000 additional tax burden would be on *1 million dollars.* The burden in on the [email protected]^ds that destroyed the economy. Where do you see the typical worker getting a *million dollar bonus*? Goldman Sach, maybe? A few others on Wall Street shysters? Forget the right wing propaganda and look at facts and real numbers.

I have paid over $40,000 in taxes in a single year and I never made close to 1 million in a year. That was because Regan and Greenspan decided to shift the tax burden when they cut the millionaires and billionaires taxes in half and doubled the burden on middle class workers through the payroll tax. That is when they declared class warfare in this country and we are loosing. I cannot see how the people of this country could be so ignorant for so long. They have to maintain ignorance to maintain power.


----------



## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Dave Nesting,
For all your union bashing and your trashing of education in the USA, why do you turn around and quote (in your LJ signature) a founding member of the Princeton Federation of Teachers Union and arguably one of the smartest teachers who ever lived?

"I consider it important, indeed urgently necessary, for intellectual workers to get together, both to protect their own economic status and . . . to secure their influence in the political field." 
Albert Einstein on why he joined a union


----------



## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

It's really pretty simple. We are digging a hole of debt that we are not going to easily climb out of and it grows every day probably at a logarythmic rate by now. We don't owe the debt to just ourselves. Many other nations purchase our debt and they expect to be paid. If we owed the debt to ourselves perhaps we could just all have a big pow wow and agree to cancel the debt.  I personally am not looking forward to the pow wow to determine who pays and who gets paid. Instead , what we are really going to do is pass the debt on to our unborn children, our children who are already here, our grand children , and our great grand children. It's all really rather selfish and insane.


----------



## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Forgot to mention the middle class was not able to cover the cuts on the affluent. The revenues on the middle class during the recession fell woefully short. That is when the deficits and national debt began to soar. Slick Willy raised taxes and balanced the budget. Then, he sold us out and approved the export of more jobs. Until we have a balanced trade policy instead of a one way street of imports in cash out, we are screwed. It will not last much longer, as the dollar continues to loose value do to the growing deficit, nobody will want dollars and that is all we wil have left to trade with is worthless paper.

Last week, 60 Minutes on CBS ran a story about the *booming economy in Brazil.* They are dong what we did in the 50s and 60s, building a affluent middle class. They are even having *to import skilled labor from America!!*


----------



## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

Barry, you can be sure that the rest of the world is working on such a currency or currencies.


----------



## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

There has been talk of repplacing it as the world standard. Yiou had better hope it isn't the Peso or Yen )


----------



## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Horizontal Mike -
As an educator and teacher - you are ina position to answer these 2 questions - 
(1) WHY is a 1.0 GPA acceptable as a standard for moving from grade to grade?
I have 3 kids grade 2, 4 and 6(first year middle school here) and as I go through homework with them I am really apalled with both content and methodology.
The schools have gone to pushing political agendas and the using the kids for fundraising -
They are boo hooing to the kids and parents forcing the kids to sell magazine subscriptions in elementary school for ALL grades - - to OFFSET THE "CUTS" which was a 9% increase this year from 46 to 51 million for teachers (09 to 10 FY). with an increase in spending PER STUDENT from 12,300 to 13, 400!.... but *"BECAUSE OF CUTS WE NEED THE KIDS TO HELP RAISE FUNDS"*

(2) WHy is Tenure a equitable social contract for ANY kind of employee. I believe in setting standards that an employee should meet. What other field does this exist in?

As for Einstein - and my tagline, Einstein was truly brilliant beyond his science and math prowess. He felt people should decide and measure facts for themselves rather than just assuming that hey the Senator, Teacher, Professor "person in authority" must be right. and not just reference propaganda sites.

Neither of us could say whether Einstein would* still *support the Unions and OPPOSE firing of underperforming teachers in New Jersey, Rhode Island and Washington DC. I believe he would support culling the teaching population where the particular teacher is proven ineffective. In FACT during his time at princeton he did not vote in favor of tenure for all the professors that moved through the ranks. So he most certainly saw professors who were not good enough to stay and voted for them to be cut.

I am sure that you as principal could have rattled off a list of 4 or 5 really TOP teachers and 4 or 5 who should be gone at your school. But the TOP gets no recognition nor pay for performance and the bottom are 'protected'. There is no organization in which 100% of the empolyees whether teachers, factory workers, politicians, Law partners, or any other profession all are performing equally and there are NO slackers deserving of a pink slip and NO stars that should be promoted. But under NEA everyone must be treated the same and I believe that is wrong. 
Finally the needs and sociopolitical climate of 1938 (For Albert at Princeton pre WWII) and 2010 are very different. If you bothered to read you saw I supported the teamsters. BUt in general, the Unions have become thugs like the SEIU our beating people up and that is not the kind of thing that is Moving the US in a positive direction.


----------



## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

CessnaPilotBarry, I saw something in the news about the Chinese being upset with the falling value of the dollar. They are riding themselves of them all over the world, buying anything from anybody who will take them. I don't remember whether it was a topic at the G8 or G20. One thing for sure is if there is a winner in the falling dollar it is Canada ;-)) Up from .68 +/- to nearly 1:1!

The bond rating of the US will fall if the dollar continues to fall with rising deficits. One thing for sure, it will be chaos! The other day Moody's mentioned lowering the US bond rating if the tax cuts on the millionaires and billionaires were allowed to continue. Everyone cried traitor!!!!! ;-(( What about all the [email protected]^ds that destroyed the economy and now are taking their bonuses at taxpayer expense? Many of them committed criminal acts and certainly economic terrorism far greater than anything the 3rd world has delivered or likely ever will. There hasn't been this kind of destruction in the homeland since Sherman cut a 90 mile wide swath from the Mississippi to the Atlantic to end the Civil War.

The Chinese & India will have a long way to go to bring billions of peasants into the 21st century. Their boom is dependant on the US consumer. If they are really capable of building an economy, why didn't they do it in the last 3,000 years. We built it and committed suicide in 400.


----------



## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Academic tenure is basically protection from job related oppression by others (supervisors, political parties, religious fanaticism, etc) so that the teacher has the freedom of expression to explore with their students, topics that may or may not trendy or fashionable. Without tenure, education would be reduced to nothing more than basic job training with NO original thought or action allowed. For example in an academically un-tenured society, your overt opinions could lead to real world consequences such as the altering of your employment status and who knows possibly that of your spouse as well.

Academic tenure can be thought as a society's guarantee against totalitarianism. The very nature of your freedom of expression can be attributed to educational opportunities you otherwise may not have been offered or allowed to experience.

Be careful of what you ask for concerning the ending of academic tenure, you may not like it later when the party in power dictates that all students' will learn and practice ONLY sweatshop job skills. But, but, but!...


----------



## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Mike there are risks everywhere - 
The outspoken protections were established at the university level first. AND dont think for a minute that if your political views differ or you are outspoken that it would not PREVENT your getting tenure.

So what develops is a single party system… this has been proven accross the country that the VAST majority of tenured positions are held by democrats. Of course the democrats are the party of Unions so not a big surprise.

It is also how the schools become progressive indoctrination….No more 'Merry Chistmas', no christmas carols, no more class parties and it is forbidden to bring cupcakes for birthday parties in elementary school - only prepackaged snacks with nutrition lables.

Your supposition that the fact that I have freedom of expression to be writing on this blog is traced to the fact that my 9th grade english teacher (who was a worthless SOB) had tenure is ludicrous!
My constitutional rights are notprovided because there was a tenure system.

Anymore the teachers use little creativity and do NOT invite any debate they are now just 'Teaching to the Test' under no child left behind, dropping PE to 2x per week and shortening recess in grade school…Sounds utopian!

*To my earlier point - - when you were a principal, did you observe that there were great teachers, ok 'teachers and teachers who should be fired….........but COULDN'T be touched in your school??*WIth my three kids our school has 3 teachers for each grade 2 kindergarten. Based on now at 2, 4, and 6th grade. We have had All of the kindergarten, 1st and second grade teachers. and 2/3 of the 3rd, 4th, and 5th grade teachers.
We have experienced 14 of the 17 teachers and 2 have been outstanding! and 1 a real *'turd in the punchbowl'* I think that is true in ALL workplaces, and that it is BS that we have to *SACRIFICE* one classroom of second graders every year rather give her the axe.

w.r.t tenure : your last paragraph-> You aren't really saying that *TODAY* the party in power DOESNT dictate what is taught via the Dept of Education which is of course headed by a cabinet appointee. and of course the school districts are held hostage to the federal dollars….don't follow No child left behind and get your fed funding cut…but but but Nothing!

Tenure has not Always existed so back in the 30's (When albert started the union) are you saying that only sweatshop skills were taught? And the curriculum has ONLY gotten better and we have the best and brightest? I saw where the US ranks 25th out of 34 industrialized countries. So while I would be sort of 'OK' with not being number 1, the fact that we not only are NOT top ten, we aren't in the top 20 for science and math education - - and it is definitive shown that pumping in more and more money is not helping.

By the way for those 17 teachers there are 44 support and admin staff just inside our building NOT includeing down town superintendants etc. so Within a single elementary school there are 2.5 'staffers' for each teacher. with Sociologist, community outreach officer, lead teacher a 8 paraeducators in addition to the normal nurse, librarian, principal secretary and lunch ladies. So only 28% of the personnel are actually teaching in the classroom.


----------



## EEngineer (Jul 4, 2008)

I see lots of crap here, but…

Let me ask one question; why in the hell are we even dealing with Communist China? Everyone is willing to talk about free markets, everyone wants to talk about capiltalism, but no one wants to talk about the very basis of China's economy!

Have you even read the papers? China's workforce has a severe suicide problem. These people are working at the business end of a gun for slave wages. Nobody wants to talk about how China has manipulated the global money market or how they treat their people as slaves to make their labor cheaper; all they want to talk about is how American labor is more expensive!

And you all know the answer: filthy lirae! After 200+ years of advancement, we are willing to export every job to an autocratic government who treats their people as slave labor for only one reason… more profit! When America falls it will only be for one reason: they forgot why America was founded in the first place!


----------



## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*helluvawreck* What do you think wil happen if there is a t-bill auction and nobody offers? Do you think they have a plan for the crsis or do yoiu thing they are fool enough to think it will never happen?


----------



## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*EE* It is quite simple. The greedy [email protected]^ds running the multi-nationals can do it to maximize their bonus money and the Chinese are able to buy Congress through the National Chamber of Commerce. Every time anyone dares mentions any change, the right wingers cry commie and socialist.


----------



## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

This post seems to have deviated a bit into the causes of the economic chaos at the root of the problem of no jobs. I talk to a lot of people about issues. One the them was a plumber working as a security guard. Low pay and no benefits, far below what he needs to support a family, but he is working, not paying any taxes, but working.

Another security person said the security companies hire people who already have low paying jobs and need more income to support themselves and their families. They don't like unemployed because the employed people are more stable and lower risk than hiring and unemployed person.

A machinist I talked to told me he gets offers from other companies all the time asking him to go to work. He said he thinks it is unfair for them not to hire some of his co-workers who have been laid off. They seem to want to steal employees rather than find their own.

The plumbing guy that helped me find plumbing parts at the Blue Box told me he is an unemployed plumber. He is working there because he and his wife own 2 adult group homes. They have just had to lay off one of their employees because the state reimbursement for patients has been cut and their taxes have just gone up. That is a total of -5% hit on their bottom line. He works at the Blue Box for the benefits because he cannot afford to insure himself and family now that he is unemployed.

My barber told me with WA cutting the State Medical Insurance Plan for the working poor, many business people such as she will be without any heath insurance. She was sick last year and lost 2 months work. She had one month when she cut almost no hair for the whole month after the banking crisis hit. Of course, business is way down for since the fall 2008 melt down. She got a part time job moving UPS trucks at night so the drivers could pick up their full trucks and go in the morning. This is a non-union subcontractor who moves these trucks every night. She was hired on as a Christmas rush seasonal worker. Their business is so slow that the owner has full time employees setting at home because there are fewer trucks to move at night this year and the rush did not materialize.

This is life on Main Street, WA, USA in 2010.


----------



## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

The plumber working security pays *payroll taxes* but not income taxes, he doesn't make that much. This is where the big lie is about the tax cuts, the top dogs don't pay payroll tax, top rate in income is about 37%, but they structure their bonuses and income to be capital gains at 15%. Even if there is a flat tax, the working poor and middle class still get screwed.


----------



## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Dave,
It is obvious that you are completely intolerant of the way things operate in the USA. Feel free to move to another country.

It is obvious that I believe and live differently than you do. In my world we allow for such differences in opinion, in your world it sure appears that you would (if given the chance) eliminate those whose opinions differ. I also note that this is typical of GOP thought and action.

Knowing that, I bow out of this conversation.


----------



## JBfromMN (Oct 19, 2010)

Unions in this country were a great thing at one time. As I see it not so great anymore.

I will use an example of a friend of mine that worked at the Ford assembly plant in St. Paul. His job was to put the tires on the trucks as they rolled by. While an important part of the truck, it is something that anyone could do. I have a hard time believing this is a job that justifies $27+ an hour.

Like I said, the unions in the first part of the 20th century did a lot of great things….Child Labor laws, worker safety laws, overtime laws and the list goes on. The point is these things are now laws on the land. If Labor Unions were disbanded it is not like these things would go away. Now all I see of Unions is the money they contribute to politics and how the union bosses are getting fat off of the members.


----------



## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

My dad who was born in 1915, lived and worked on a farm his entire life and only went through the 8th grade, as did most of his peers of the period, told me, "If a man cannot afford the product he produces, the economy is in trouble." That is where we are today. Too many cannot afford what they produce. The production has to move to a cheaper labor market or we have to have 2 incomes to by the production of the one. We are seeing both.

The bottom line; if a job in society is worth doing, it is worth a living wage by Teddy Roosevelt's 1900 definition. It doesn't matter if it is putting tires on or doing brain surgery; if it doesn't pay a living wage, if don't need it done.


----------



## HokieMojo (Mar 11, 2008)

So should Boeing employees be able to afford a 747?

Just teasing.


----------



## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Should be able to afford to use it )


----------



## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

Bob, IMHO, if the government does away with 95% of the value of the dollar in less than 100 years this would be very difficult to accomplish.  Maybe it's time to take a look at the inflation charts and other economic indicator charts and see how they started to rise or fall just after 1971 in a rather sharp way, depending on which chart you're looking at. 

However, in your research, be sure to look at several different charts compiled by different groups. It's like unemployment figures, i f they used one set of rules to determine what unemployment was in 1990 and a totally different set of rules to determine what unemployment is in 2010 then it's really rather difficult to determine and compare the two figures. You know the old saying, "If we're going to talk statistics let's compare apples with apples and oranges with oranges." How do you compare apples with bananas?


----------



## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Unfortunately figures can lie and liars can figure ;-(( I usually just use what Morningstar puts out. Before the SEC made corps put out data to everyone at the same, there were a lot of companies who would not talk to them. I knew that was a good positive sign about the credibility of their data. Even they got snookered when most the major corps were filing fraudulent financial reports to drive their stock prices in the early part of the decade. Since then I have gotten class action suits against the management of most of the stocks Merrill Lynch had us in and a few of the mutual funds too. It is absolutely amazing how many of those companies are run by greedy, congenital liars. Even good companies like GE have been hurt by the perceptions none of them can be trusted any more. Their share value has never recovered form the crash early 2001 when Tyco's CEO was exposed as a tax cheat and liar.


----------



## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

*Bob said*, "Unfortunately figures can lie and liars can figure ;-((" Thanks for the quote, Bob. I shall write that one down in my notebook.


----------



## surfin2 (Oct 24, 2009)

Has anyone seen Conspiracy Theory with Jesse Ventura - TruTV
That'll activate some brain cells…


----------



## surfin2 (Oct 24, 2009)

It goes in depth about what really is going on in this country…

The Gulf Oil Spill -
The BP oil disaster in the Gulf of Mexico has led to devastation along Louisiana's coast and in its fishing and tourism industries. But was it deliberate? Jesse Ventura leads his team into the bayou where they investigate claims of a plot to depopulate Louisiana and turn it into America's refinery. At the core: the government's alleged secret, multi-billion dollar depopulation program that began in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina and was kicked into Phase Two with the oil rig blast.


----------



## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Mike you said something I agree with - 
I am intoloerant of the status quo! I think the system over the past 40 years has become twisted and perverted, while you defend the status quo as "the way things operate in the USA"

You are a retired educator and principal but could not possibly admit that there were some superstars that worked for you and some slackers.
That is not about tolerating a difference of opinion - or that I would get rid of those who disagree - but rather I judge job performacne by the RESULTS they deliver.

I would not make the same blanket acusation of intolerance you have on the left as that is simple intellectual cowardice to be unwilling to back an argument with even a debate or offer any facts just talk of sunshine and lollipops of the status quo.

Your offer for me to relocate to another country has been duly filed where it belongs - - did you feel it when you bent over?


----------



## surfin2 (Oct 24, 2009)

Global Warming -
Whether global warming is real or not, it's believed some people are using the issue to make billions of dollars, start a one-world government and control our lives, from the cars we drive to the foods we eat. Jesse Ventura starts with Al Gore and goes far beyond as he uncovers the evidence that leads to one man thought to be behind the global warming conspiracy.

Big Brother -
Big Brother is watching and it's not who you think. Jesse Ventura's investigation of government surveillance on its citizens tears the lid off a nationwide program that is thought to turn local businessmen and office workers into spies, snooping on their neighbors and ratting on their friends in exchange for information and special privileges from the FBI- including, some charge, a "license to kill."

Secret Societies -
They're thought to be a group of the world's elite who meet once a year at a luxury hotel and decide how they will run the world. It's believed they plan to thin out the population through disease-and vaccines. Jesse Ventura infiltrates the Bilderberg Group.

Manchurian Candidate -
Authors and experts warn that forces within the government have revived a program that uses mind control techniques to turn ordinary citizens into programmed assassins. This real-life Manchurian Candidate seems outlandish-until Jesse Ventura searches for the evidence and goes face-to-face with a man who claims he's one of the killer

Apocalypse 2012 -
It's believed that the world is heading for disaster in 2012 and the government is preparing to save and protect the elite - while leaving the rest of us to fend for ourselves. Jesse Ventura investigates claims of top secret underground bunkers being built in places ranging from the Nevada desert to the White House, including the largest, now under construction beneath a major metropolitan airport.

Plum Island -
Jesse storms Congress to find out if the government is conducting dangerous experiments at the Plum Island Animal Research Center off the coast of Long Island. The center, which began as a bio-warfare lab run by former Nazi scientists, has been blamed for spreading diseases and viruses throughout the mainland, including African swine flu and Lyme disease. Some suspect the mysterious Montauk Monster emanated from the facility.

Area 51 -
Questions surrounding the military's secret research base in the Nevada desert have been swirling around for years. Jesse faces off against guards at Area 51, to find out why the Joint Terrorism Task Force raided the homes of two Area 51 watchdogs and to review alleged evidence that the government has been faking UFO sightings and alien abductions in order to cover up darker secrets at the base

Wall Street -
Jesse goes inside the secret billionaire's boy's club to find out what caused the financial meltdown and how the group allegedly continues to manipulate and control the stock market and oil, gold and silver prices. From Wall Street to Washington, the governor barges in on the rich and powerful to demands answers.

Police State - 
It's been said the government has a plan to declare martial law and round up millions of United State citizens into concentration camps. Jesse may have found a conspiracy in plain sight as he investigates the proliferation of law enforcement Fusion Centers around the country. And they may be connected to hundreds of detention centers ready to accept prisoners at the stroke of a Presidential pen.

JFK Assassination -
Never-published declassified CIA documents appear to support a link between the assassination of John F. Kennedy and the Watergate scandal that brought down Richard Nixon. To find out for sure, Jesse Ventura goes to Dallas, where he meets Lee Harvey Oswald's widow, Marina, and investigates the "Two Oswalds" theory that a CIA-groomed double killed JFK.

Great Lakes -
They call it "Blue Gold." Water is the new oil. Once a human right, it's now a valuable commodity, and corporations and super-rich oil dynasties are believed to be buying up water rights, controlling nations and populations. Jesse looks into the possibility of these activities finding their way to American shores and uncovers what may be a plot to literally steal the Great Lakes.

Pentagon - 
The idea that a missile or explosives-not a hijacked jetliner-damaged the Pentagon on September 11, 2001 seems the most unlikely of 9/11 theories. That is, until you look at all the factors, which include eyewitness testimony, crime scene video, expert analysis and the question why, with 85 cameras trained on the building, have only five frames of crash footage have ever been released? Jesse Ventura leads a serious investigation into a tangled web of clues that some say are too sacred to even touch


----------



## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*helluvawreck* I have heard that lots of places as long as I can remember. I'm not sure of the origin.

I'll see if Jesse is on out here. I don't see much TV except for weather, 60 Minutes and Roy and Shopsmiith when they are on.


----------



## RiverWood (Nov 4, 2010)

The day that a member of a union says I support the man that writes my check over the union that spends my dues to support transformation of our constitution I might think about unions being a good thing


----------



## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

Rick, I'm sure that all of these things are very interesting but I'm not sure what they have to do with verifiable facts. The laws of economics are real just like the law of gravity -* IF YOU GO INTO DEBT YOU SINK. IF YOU SAVE AND INVEST YOU RISE.*


----------



## surfin2 (Oct 24, 2009)

Sunday at 12:00 to 4:00pm there running 4 of them on set your dvr…
Global Warming - Great Lakes - Wall Street - JFK Assassination

Normally Friday 10:00Pm… Topamax you have to check this out…


----------



## surfin2 (Oct 24, 2009)

Are you saying corporate & government corruption has nothing to do with this tread…

Were being sold out in more ways than one…

I didn't realize how blind people are to the things around them in every day life…

I remember when they showed 9/11 on TV the building started to fall before the jet even hit it???

Why did it take so long for BP to fix the leak??? Jesse investigates & says it was planned all along…
He talks to people in the gulf about the clean up & thats even a bigger joke… The list just goes on & on about government cover up…

Great Lakes - Corporations are buying land & drilling & pumping water from the lakes & selling it to china cause they can't power there turbines cause of they don't have enough water…

It's all about conspiracies & government cover up's!!!

So I wouldn't plan on the government helping us out!!!

You can go to trutv.com click on schedule then conspiracy theory then pick what show you want to watch…


----------



## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Juniorjock said:
"Its about that time, Martin…….... or whoever is in charge today…
- JJ"

I agree.


----------



## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Wow Mike and you say I am about getting rid of or silencing opposition!

WHy don't you tell us how good it is that Texas Teachers dont have to pay Social Security and instead get to have their Social Security directly invested in their personal private retirement accounts. More union back room deals.


----------



## baller (Nov 14, 2008)

conspiracy "theory" on tru tv with jesse ventura is as hard-hitting as it gets on mainstream media, although slowly but surely everyone is starting to come around (now that they're going out of business, anyone know how much MSNBC got bailed out with??)...the only reason they allow it now is because at this point they're nearing the last phases of the end game, and with so much of the population programmed by their propaganda, anything/one questioning the establishment/"theory" (plausible deniability is the key to just about everything nowadays) is seen/mocked/parroted as cookery, and only paid attention to by tinfoil hat wearers…this happened to me overwhelmingly on our other global warming thread…anyways, in summation i would say the truth is not with people who claim to have all the answers, but closer to the ones who ask all the questions.


----------



## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

We do know for sure Caesar accidentally burning the great library at Alexandria set civilization back at least 1000 years. ;-((

I don't know about conspiracies, but we are rapidly heading toward becoming a fascist state as defined by Mussolini, it's inventor.


----------



## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

Wow, I didn't realize that Jesse Ventura had fallen in with the foil hat crowd. But then I watch very little TV. Anything for a buck, I guess, including sci-fi.

And THIS:

"Great Lakes - Corporations are buying land & drilling & pumping water from the lakes & selling it to china cause they can't power there turbines cause of they don't have enough water…"

has to be one of the silliest statements I have ever seen on the internet. Anyone with any sense at all would realize that it would require more energy to put the water in China than they would ever get back. Sheesh. I'm going to tell this whopper as one of my jokes at xmas dinner tomorrow.


----------



## TMcG (Mar 9, 2010)

Well at least the discussion/debate stayed relatively civilized !

Couple of points, and not trying to start an argument;

It's not possible to structure income or bonus payments to qualify for capital gains treatment, or options, restricted stock, well thats another matter.

Economies are cyclical and Yes, this current economy is in a very deep trough right now but everything adjusts over time. Sadly, that "time" causes damage and people suffer which is terrible, heartbreaking and hard to watch or experience.

But humans are resilient animals, full of hope, ideas and dreams that will find a way to become realities, be they new businesses, new skills, new jobs etc..

I've never really been a big fan of conspiracy theories because I just can't quite make the leap to believe that there is a group of people with a malicious intent large enough to want to cause that much damage, instead I choose to believe that the guy next door has the same hopes and dreams I do and that most of the "bad ideas" are just that, bad compromises, bad policy or misinformed decisions

Whats all that mean, who knows, Jimmy V I guess, as it's not just about cancer !

Merry Xmas
tony


----------



## sras (Oct 31, 2009)

I don't usually participate in these discussions, but this one has stayed quite stable. I find this web site very interesting:

usdebtclock.org

It is not perfectly accurate - for instance given the new census data, the population estimate is off by about 3 million or about 1%. It has debt data for each state and several countries. One thing I find interesting is that personal debt is going down. This is a recent trend.


----------



## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

"It's not possible to structure income or bonus payments to qualify for capital gains treatment, or options, restricted stock, well thats another matter."

Certainly not direct cash payments, but with a foot thick tax code, anybody with any money can certainly figure out how to structure their income to minimize tax liability to near zero. Remember Leona Helmsly (sic?)? She spouted off about "only little people " pay taxes. The subsequent investigation put her in federal prison for a few years.

I am not a conspiracy theorist either. I was 12 when John Kennedy was assented. When Jack Ruby died of cancer after murdering Aswald (sic?) , even a kid could see that was too convenient. And, anyone who knows anything about firearms can see the bullet that blew the back of JFK's head off had to have come from the front.

Nuf of that for a few days! Merry Christmas to all out LJ friends and a blessed and happy new year to all!! ;-))


----------



## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

Whatever career choice we made in high school, we MUST stick with it for 45+ years 'til retirement. *Period*.
We have no right to pursue our best potential for optimum lifetime earnings with career changes or other frivolous thoughts. How selfish and self-serving is that?
I'm lucky! At the age of twenty, I got a job in a clock factory. Thirty-seven years later, I still stand around and make faces all day. *Merry Christmas, one and all.*


----------



## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Poopie: So that's what makes you *tick*. lol No wonder you refurbish *second hand* furniture 
Hope the *pendulum* swings your way in 1011. mmmm

Love to *wind* you up Poopie, Merry Christmas to you,each and every one.
Tiny Tim(e)


----------



## cranbrook2 (May 28, 2006)

Merry Christmas Poopie you old TIMER you ;-)


----------



## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Yeah Topa, 
That JFK thing (I was about that same age also) smelled pretty rotten at the time, much like the multiple abortion doctor murders being called "random" and/or "isolated" events in more recent times. No conspiracy theory, just an observation…

Unfortunately, I also agree with Poopiecat about the requirement to follow just ONE course throughout one's professional life in order to secure your best retirement. I can cerntainly testify about following the "alternative" route(s) and the costs that that entails. ;-)


----------



## juniorjock (Feb 3, 2008)

Merry Christmas guys and gals.
- JJ


----------



## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

Ummm…* horizontal*....what I said above was totally tongue-in-cheek. Knowing of generations of farriers, shoe-factory workers, television assembly-line workers, foundry workers, and auto assembly plant workers throughout central New England, one thing is certain: If you wanna be the last man standing when everyone else has seen and heeded the handwriting on the wall, then be my guest. Go ahead and be King of the Hill and beat your chest loudly about jobs 'disappearing'. Do not disturb the studies of the people who stay on top of things by improving their education and remaining competitive in fields that have a good long-term outlook. Knuckle-head factory jobs are gone…..good riddance! I too, spent much of my early adulthood in those hideous sweat-shop jobs…then I put myself thru college in my late twenties and never looked back. I haven't been up half the night with persistent formaldehyde nosebleeds from ramming fresh particle board through old Uni-Saws as I used to 25 years ago. As much as I love my woodworking, I could never throw my life away again for the sake of doing something I love…when I'm now a fully-engaged employee doing 3rd-career work I didn't know I'd love doing so much! And at the end of the day I come home to my loving home and family, and do some cool stuff in my workshop whenever the mood strikes.


----------



## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Poopiekat,
Been through college a number of times and hold a PhD. Changed careers and did the things I loved though the economics of doing such never panned out for me. Mentally/emotionally I agree with you though.


----------



## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

I hope everyone had a great holiday.

Have a few points. --
I was wrong. I stated much earlier in the thread that the govt has over a trillion in IOUs to Social Security. From the research that I did, it may be as high as 2.5 trillion. My point is this. Social Security doles out a pittance compared to what it takes in. It is the same thing as jury duty, thinking that $10.00 is a days wage in today;s standards. When the payout to the people that contribute, in 1958 or so, was established, the payout was credible - even $10.00 was great back then. Now, it is an insult. If they were paying as the salaries increased and the amounts that were collected, Social Security would be great. But-- can Congress go a year without voting themselves a raise-they do, now they have to vote to NOT get a raise, they voted to automagically get their raise every year. When Social Security was "fixed" the payouts did not change, just the contributions from us and to the general fund were increased. Whether it be cloaked in IUOs or whatever, the money is not there and therefore a major issue to every american that has paid into this fund for decades and the press DOESN"T make this an issue.

As for the jobs - I have a job in the computer world. If I lose this job or leave it, the chances of getting a full time, permanent position is nil. I will become a contractor with no benifits because that is the way this industry has gone. I left HVAC because I didn't like being a contractor and I shut my business down becuase I didn't like being a contractor. This is another example of how that pendulum swings. It will swing back because it is the nature of things. There are some companies, large ones, that outsourced their entire IT departments and have decided that it was not as great as once thought and are in the process of putting it back.

Unions are as corrupt as they always were. What was that saying-"live by the sword, die by the sword" and unions were created using the sword (so to speak). There is way too much money involved. My union wanted to raise contributions by a dollar and was voted down recently. It is not the dollar that is the issue, it is the fact that we have not had a raise in three years (which really makes a difference in the retirement) and now they say they need the money to help us get more money and improve things. The dollar is almost insignificant - but when you multiply it out times two pays per month, times 20,000 people, this is $40,000 a month increase and it would have been used for wage increases and political "donations" because they are non-profits and cannot make a profit. Why could they not do this for the last three years when we had a contract that was viable. Many unions do not have "teeth" with the organizations but they are not going to let the employees walk away from them. "Its illegal" - they DO NOT represent the people, they represent themselves, they enforce their contract with the employer, that is their purpose and only liability. To the employee they are held harmless but if the employer gets fed up, the employer can break the union, not the employees - we must pay them, it is required by law.


----------



## mvflaim (Dec 8, 2009)

Without the gov't stimulus and unemployment insurance, we would be living in the Second Great Depression. However, I don't think we are out of the woods yet with our national deficit and the second wave of home forclosures that will happen next year in 2011. Because of this, the banks will not loan money to small businesses which only adds to the problem. The only reason consumer confidence is up is because the stock market has risen 60% over the last year and people see their 401k's rising. Unemployemnt is not getting better and probably won't for another two years. The smart money knows this and is buying comodities like gold in fear of hyperinflation. This country is going to get a big wake up call soon.


----------



## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Banks have not loaned money to small businesses for years. As far back as the '80s trying to get money from banks generated the response, "That is what venture capital does, not banks."

There must be a change in the mind set of consumers and some of us will pay the price - in different ways. Some will lose business, others will be dropping their prices while the chain stores have their problems. Either way, competition is going to be the decision maker.

As long as the majoirity of the people are willing to settle with ultra cheap products that only last as long as their short term interest holds instead of buying quality merchandize, we will have this mess. This sounds bad but only when services start getting in short supply are they noticed.

It used to be that the federal govt had to buy US made products first and could only buy products made outside the US if none were available. I have no idea what they do now, I think it is strickly lowest bidder.

After watching this thread and going over what people are saying, the required changes may be in us and what we do that will have more of an impact on our "world". Not sure how but that, as individuals, is what we do - world wide.

What CAN we do to improve woodworking jobs and growth now that we have discussed what is wrong with the world?


----------



## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

dbray45, I don't wish to contradict your opinion, but, wouldn't the local woodworking tool store dry up and blow away if we bought tools *once* in our lifetimes, tools that lasted forever? Doesn't the theory of planned obsolescence, as repulsive as it is, churn up profits for everybody and keep the economy humming? What if everyone was still driving the same car they bought 30 years ago? Well, it's actually not totally a bad thing, but it's an interesting scenario.


----------



## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Obviously, if Airbus is bidding on the Air Force Tanker project, they don't care any more. The R's in Congress blocked the "American made' provision of the job stimulus package last year ;-( Very nice of us US taxpayers to be supporting China stimulus! ;-(

I guess the thing woodworkers will have to do is make more ornate, beautiful items. That is what the of gunsmiths of post-Revolution Era did to sell their product. It was truly a Golden Age of American craftsmanship. Will it work again? Another Golden Age of American craftsmanship??


----------



## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

I have one local woodworking store and it recently has a new owner. They are having a hard time competing as it is. They have a shop and sell memberships. Nice concept but people that are buying memberships are not buying the equipment. When they are working at the "rent-a-shop" they are away from home.

If all of the homeowners were to buy a hammer, a quality handsaw, a set of screwdrivers, and a drill when they bought their house, the tool economy wouldn't be so bad. That wouldn't happen but when tools are basically built to work for a project and then throw away, that pendulum needs to get to the center. The people on LJs understand what it means to buy quality tools, regardless where they are made. Even though Grizzly is not made here, the customer service is here and does a good job and that means a lot. Laguna is made in Canada as are Lee Valley and Veritas. They make high quality and I HAVE been buying Veritas when I can afford it. Black and Decker are manufactured out of the country now but more importantly, I wouldn't buy most of it from a quality stand point. Lets be realistic, if I was putting together a production shop, I would buy what I could afford and build up as the need arises. I would also build differently from what I do now or - maybe not, I like making mostly handmade furniture.

Just for the record, I really have no issues with democrats or republicans - I really don't like socialism and I don't like stupid. As far as I am concerned, undo the silliness and from there - don't do anything. Gridlock means we keep more of our own money.


----------



## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

One more thing, I buy junk chisels, lose the handles, grind the blades to be what I want, harden and temper the blades if they need it, make new handles and have custom chisels. Not good for the economy but good for me. Maybe sometime I will be able to afford those really nice $300.00 chisels.


----------



## surfin2 (Oct 24, 2009)

The unemployment rate in NY is 8.3 according to there records, they say it fell form 8.5 which is a big joke. The prices of everything is still going up, there's still no jobs here & what does pop up is PART TIME.

The news was crying about unemployment benefits running out if an extension wasn't past…
Well a bill got past but that doesn't cover anyone with 93 months, that's what the news was referring to, after 93 months you can't collect anything more…

How can they say there's less unemployed this year than last year, when everything has just got worse. There taking $25 a week out of your check cause it went from 8.5 to 8.3 ??? The only reason employment went up was for Christmas help. I hear more about cutting back & laying off this year than I did last year. They can tell when employment goes up but unless you file for unemployment you don't make the ratings. 
This is all BS cause they call tell by your S.S.# if your employed or not (It's not Rocket Science) As far as under the table, Mexicans have that covered. This 8.5 down to 8.3 is plain bull. If your unemployment ran out or you couldn't collect unemployment for what ever reason even though your still unemployed you don't qualify to make the ratings.
So the ones that were just surviving will now lose $100 a month from there checks…


----------



## lwllms (Jun 1, 2009)

"...I stated much earlier in the thread that the govt has over a trillion in IOUs to Social Security. From the research that I did, it may be as high as 2.5 trillion. My point is this. Social Security doles out a pittance compared to what it takes in…."

David,

I'm pleased you researched this, I had no intention of getting into an argument with anyone and have avoided this thread until tonight. The amount the Government owes Social Security is actually 2.6 trillion dollars. The wealthy and the Republican power structure wants to default on the Treasury bonds held by Social Security but want the Government to honor all the other Treasury bonds held by investors. Like I said before, it's selective default on the National debt with working people and the poor taking the hit. For years the Republicans and wealthy have railed about how poor people don't pay income taxes. Well no, the working poor don't pay much in income taxes but they do pay the Social Security payroll taxes that have financed the Government since Reagan's deficits and subsequent deficits. Now the Republicans and wealthy want to go back and basically convert all those Social Security taxes to income tax retroactively. Suddenly all those income taxes the working poor didn't pay will turn into the most regressive income tax in the history of the Nation and it'll be retroactive for almost 30 years.


----------



## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Poopiekat said:
"Doesn't the theory of planned obsolescence, as repulsive as it is, churn up profits for everybody and keep the economy humming?

Sure, if you want to throw the term "quality" out the window. Planned Obsolescence is a modern invention that maximizes not only profit, but the use of natural resources. It creates jobs in trash pickup, environmental waste treatment and disposal, recycling (though they are slow to catch on), and bio-hazardous materials exposure research to name a few…


----------



## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*surfin2* The counting of only those drawing benefits goes back to at least 1980, maybe before. There is a logging town on the Olympic Peninsula known as Forks. Only about 25% of the town was employed. All the loggers had run out of benefits so it did not qualify for any aid because the "official unemployment rate" was under 10%. This is just one of the numerous lies the bureaucrats use on us, US citizens.

Today I heard some economic news that may point to where the woodworkers need to go to sell their wares or build custom work. 84% of the work force who are working, according to the Wall Street Journal, say they will be looking for a better job in 2011. 40% are under-employed; ie, college degree doing menial labor. That says a lot about the disposable income of the middle class residing in majority of the US. In spite of a 7.5% increase in productivity, wages continue to remain stagnant as inflation continues to eat up buying power. However, there is a bright spot. 5 Wall Street firms announced they will be passing out $90 billion in bonuses. It would appear that NY City and surrounding burbs is where to go. We know they have money to spend, they aren't paying any appreciable income taxes to speak of.

Also, the increase in Gross National Product, the total of goods and services produced in the US, is the lowest in the history of the country for the last decade. Corporate profits continue to increase with the rise in productivity. The profits are going to upper management compensation and bonuses. There was one stock whose CEO compensation package and dividends were in the news a few months ago. Sorry, I don't remember which one but it is typical of my research. The stock paid a dividend of less than $1/ year. The CEO's compensation was making a dime a share impact on the dividends paid. Upper management continues to raid American public markets. The [email protected]^ds we bailed out are taking their bonuses tax free. If it were not for unemployment insurance and the stimulus, we would be far worse off than the Great Depression. I am beginning to wonder when blood will run in the streets?


----------



## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Yes, yes, yes This is what I mean about the stupid. Many of our elected officials still believe that the public is stupid and not paying attention.

I think we all agree that Social Security should be revamped. In my oppinion, I think the benefits should be increased to pay 1/3 to 1/2 of your annual income when you retire, and yes, cash in the notes to accomplish this. I don't think Social Security should be paying benefits to illegals and non US citizens, which they do, and deny benefits to citizens that would qualify for benefits. Yes, clean this up.

As for the large corporations, they will do what they do, they always have. If you don't believe this, take a look at West Virginia's history with regards to lumber, railroads, and mining. Nothing new here but we just can't live without the Vanderbilts, Firestones, Kennedys, etc… They are the craft's bread and butter - just look at Biltmore.

None of us are likely to make 500K a year doing woodworking, unless it is in Yen. How many of you are taking that extra step and calling these huge companies armed with a good looking portfolio, samples of wood or veneer and asking them what they envision their conference room or office to look like? From what I have seen, many of you could easily do this kind of work. Some of you that live and work near each other can also team up on larger jobs to do this. These executives with bonuses will be spending also. They have what we call pasture palaces for homes, etc… If you have to, take a couple of business courses so you learn what needs to be in a business contract. For those that make really interesting inside and outside furniture, these markets are open as well.

Oh, and yes, I realize that in many areas the economy is bad, really bad. I used to know this guy that fell upon really hard times, couldn't get unemployment - before that existed, going to lose his house because of taxes - it was paid off, many thought he was too old to do a lot of jobs. He went to Alaska for six months to work on the pipeline. While he was there he lived on very little and sent most of his wages home. He picked himself and his family up and made it work. He plowed snow when I knew him, I was working in a gas station. With his old Willys jeep and 500lbs. block of cement in the back, plow in the front - he would fill up with gas twice a day. Minimum wage was $2.00 an hour and within the two or three day plowing window would make $2,000 a day, charging $10.00 for a short driveway and $20.00 for a long one. When the plowing was done, he put the jeep in the shop, replaced the clutch and had the transmission gone over for the next snow. I learned a lot from this man.

The same analogy can be made with illegals in this country. The difference is that they are not here legally and they send their money home - to another country. Their allegance is not here but to another country. If they did this legally, I have no problem. Many of these folks do work hard, are respectful, and grateful to have a job. There are many that come to this country and expect to be given jobs, benefits, and all the perks but are not willing to take the time and effort to be in this country legally. I have no time or patience for these individuals. We need to take care of our own first.

Did I miss anything? Thanks to you all.


----------



## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

dbray45:
One thing you missed or rather are wrong on is that LEGAL Aliens pay ALL the taxes and contributions that US citizens pay, so basically they pay all the taxes etc., but are not allowed to vote. Reminds me about some rebellion around 1776 about taxes without representation. lol
Legal aliens are also liable for taxes in their own country of origin until they apply and become a US citizen. Then they are allowed to vote.


----------



## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

I have no problem with legal folks and yes they pay into the system, as they should. These folks SHOULD be elegible for benefits. The folks that are not legal and "expect" benefits are the ones I have issues with. There was a rally in DC not long ago that were all illegal aliens and they were demanding that they get unemployment, Social Security, and the like. These folks are not supposed to be in the country in first place and they want us to pay them benefits.

Social Security has been paying illegal aliens benefits and I feel this is wrong on all counts.


----------



## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

dbray45:
Spot on. We need to make a severe punishment for those who employ illegal immigrants and deport the illegals immediately, that's the law, so why isn't it enforced? Maybe that one small act might free up 20 million jobs and bring down our medical costs.
Follow the law, don't cherry pick the ones that you don't agree with, if you don't like a law then change it otherwise if we don't enforce our laws, we are a nation of idiots open to any scam or unfairness.


----------



## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

That gets into the politics thing that you have to call your representitives and raise - you know what - about. You also need to find out what your local politicians are doing as well.

Here in Maryland, they favor illegals over US citizens. Don't know why, now they are complaining that costs are going through the roof. In Virginia, where they are starting to discourage illegals, crime, and costs are going down - alot. Hmmmm, maybe they have something - we need to check the water supply here in MD. Something fogging up the mind.


----------



## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Thom Hartman just reported the Fortune 500 created 2.4 millon jobs in 2010. Only 1 million in the US. This is becoming a national security issue. Treason?


----------



## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Topo - I agree with you - There was a great article about manufacturing and Silicon Valley - Written by Andy Grove, the former Intel CEO. He points out that the big problem is that we not longer to *scale up here*.

In the past the "garage industry" got an idea or invention, then got in with venture capitalists and built factories and hired people. Now people get the idea then outsource the production and process engineering. THe big challeng as Grove points out is that that 'commodity' manufacturing base sets you up for the next big thing, because you have plumbers, mechanics and electricians that have the knowledge to RETOOL. Once it is just white collar in a cube farm, we have little impact going forward. The example used is Batteries for electric vehicles. Since most of the production of batteries in general has been outsourced as ' unimportant blue collar stuff' now we have no position for the electric car with Lithium Ion technology. THe white collar engineers understand the technology, but there is no industrial base for making these things in any economical way, or pushing any real breakthroughs. Much of the development in industry comes from engineers solving problems on the factory floor and making contiuous improvements. Once they are just sitting in front of monitors that feedback loop disappears. If we think GM is in trouble today, wait (not long) for electric cars to grow to a serious market.

From Grove - and to your point about the Fortune 500 -

Some 250,000 Foxconn employees in southern China produce Apple's products. Apple, meanwhile, has about 25,000 employees in the U.S. -that means for every Apple worker in the U.S. there are 10 people in China working on iMacs, iPods and iPhones. The same roughly 10-to-1 relationship holds for Dell, disk-drive maker Seagate Technology, and other U.S. tech companies.

His conclusion really drives it home and this is from a retired Intel CEO!

"You could say, as many do, that shipping jobs overseas is no big deal because the high-value work-and much of the profits-remain in the U.S. That may well be so. But what kind of a society are we going to have if it consists of highly paid people doing high-value-added work-and masses of unemployed? "

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-07-01/how-to-make-an-american-job-before-it-s-too-late-andy-grove.html


----------



## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

China is also working on the next generation of super computers and have hired some of the best engineers and scientists to get it accomplished. IMHO, the only real way to create *real wealth* is to mine it, manufacture it, or grow it. Services tend to feed off of these things. Maybe one of these days we will all end up cutting each others grass and doing each others dirty laundry.


----------

