# Removing a finishing nail from a mortise and tenon joint



## mtkate (Apr 18, 2009)

I don't think there is an easy answer to this one - I certainly can't find one…

I am taking a chair apart and hit a snag. The cross-brace on the bottom of the chair goes into the chair rail (or stile?) with a mortise and tenon joint. The joint was re-enforced with a finishing nail that only goes in half way. Now the joint is loose - it wiggles…. but the nail assures that I cannot easily take it apart.

Do I have to bite the bullet and tap it through? There is a risk of cracking the tenon, of course.


----------



## EricMSaperstein (Jul 5, 2009)

Rubber mallet - knock it apart a few sharp hits get it over with. Just glue it back together again you will do more damage trying to dig the nail out than just busting it apart and letting nature take its course. Just glue the shattered sections back in place, usually it just pulls out a splinter when the nail comes through the side. If you are lucky it will bend the nail and pop out somewhat cleanly.

You can get crazy and try to wiggle in an osolating tool with a very small cutter - but really it ends up just digging into the wood somewhere anyway in most cases.


----------



## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

I agree with Eric. Bob Flexner digs the nail out but it does to a bit of damage, but he is a touch up master.

For tenons, sometimes it will pull through, other times it will stay and cut your tenon in half depending on how close to the end of the tennon it is however that damage wont be too bad structurally.


----------



## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

What I have done is to drill a fine hole in the mortise in an area that is least visible and right into the base of the mortise.
I insert a 20 or 22 guage needle on a hypodermic syringe and drive my glue of choice in the hole until it exudes around the tenon.
Clamp and pray. ;-)
I just did one for one of my wifes' antique collector buddies about 2 months ago.
Unless the mortise is extremely worn the glue will hold it forever.


----------



## EricMSaperstein (Jul 5, 2009)

All said and done - damage is nothing that a little construction adhesive won't fix. You can sometimes dig them out, we have every gadget known to man to remove a nail. The little pincher device does work but it damages the outside and visible surface of the leg. Cracking the leg slightly in the process of removing the nail


----------



## EricMSaperstein (Jul 5, 2009)

If you drill and inject - you gotta watch that there is not too much old crystallized glue in the joint or nothing bonds right. It will fill the current spaces but in a short time of wiggling the old glue will shatter more opening up more gaps. At that point the new glue is involved and getting it apart is harder.


----------



## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

Eric, are you referring to hide glue?
If you are then heating the joint with a hot air gun should melt the stuff sufficiently to re inject the joint with more hide glue.
I'm not familiar with any other glues that crystallize.

Bob


----------



## EricMSaperstein (Jul 5, 2009)

Could be a hyde glue on an antique - could a combination of any random glue that dries out. The old Elmer's that people used to repair the chair 50 years ago will be in poor condition now. Even if its on the wood and just in a shrunken joint it prevents good bonding between the new glue and the old wood. Works better if you sand the joints out or scrape them to get to bear wood.

We certainly have injected when taking apart isn't possible … but I try to avoid it.


----------



## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

The reason I suggested this was because of the nail problem. I would prefer to take the joints apart if possible and in some extreme case retrofit the mortise with shims or a wedge in the tenon. I have found that some of the "old" furniture was not made to any great tolerance that we build to today so the joints were bound to fail as time went on.
The worst is always the one where somebody beat me to it and botched the repair before they bring it to me.


----------



## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

another tool kit resource are the screw extracters from Woodcraft.
http://www.woodcraft.com/Family/2000983/Screw-Extractors.aspx
I have been meaning to pick them up and this thread reminded me.

It probably wont be the last time I lose the head on a brass wood screw.

They should work fine for this problem as well.









Incidently, Woodcraft has free shipping to Canada right now.
I wonder how long it will take the rest of the wood stores to realise they have a willing customer just a bit Norht of them?


----------



## rance (Sep 30, 2009)

Bob, as a warning, these are meant for Brass screws & nails. Steel nails can do a number on them, and quickly. Ask me how I know.  Its still a good solution.


----------



## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

Rance, I had anticipated that but them's the chances you have to take.<vbg>


----------



## mtkate (Apr 18, 2009)

Thanks - I am going to go look at the problem today. What I have noticed in the chair is there is quite a lot of crystallized glue in the joints that I have had to remove as well. Someone did beat me to a repair - I believe 20 or so years ago. I'll try knocking one joint first, then see what the result gives. Gulp!

I'll bet whoever tried to fix it up last time used regular white glue. I bought myself some Titebond furniture repair glue which hopefully will do the trick.


----------



## mtkate (Apr 18, 2009)

Wow. Wow. Wow. Talk about COMPLETELY UNEXPECTED results!!!
.
From looking at the picture below, which I took just before I applied the rubber mallet - one would think this was a mortise and tenon joint - no???? 
.










.
.
I am ok with the fact I cracked the wood. I will deal with it. But could anyone have expected the nail was holding in a dowel?

.










.
.

At least I know how to deal with any other joints I find.


----------



## mtkate (Apr 18, 2009)

Of course, there is crystallized glue at the bottom of the well - and there was never a mortise and tenon joint in the first place. And the dowel is pine.


----------



## Dennisgrosen (Nov 14, 2009)

thank´s for the update MtKate
I have used dovels but it was on a coffeetable where the legg at the end look like II (a roman 2)
but both post had two dovels in the ends

anyway you can call it a loose tenon construction…LOL (think Festool )

Dennis


----------



## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

Way to go! Every woodworker needs to have a little luck going for them now and agian.
Is that the way all the stretchers are fastened?
I would be thinking about using a hardwoood dowel to avoid/lessen seasonal shrinking if that's the case.

Good luck


----------



## mtkate (Apr 18, 2009)

I will definitely replace them with hardwood dowels.

Now that I know the entire set is dowelled - it's all a matter of twist and shout. The second one came out with a few light prelim taps (just to shake up the old glue - just in case) and some twisting. In this case, the "reinforcing" nail had twisted in the wood. Just a small cracking, but it's inside where the joint will meet so not visible.
.










.
Lesson learned - even though it looks good on the outside… you never know! The cracked stretcher is glued and clamped, and awaiting further processing…


----------



## LeeBarker (Aug 6, 2010)

Parallel universe!

These side chairs were made for a bank by a cabinet shop. So far so good. Probably designed by an architect. Ok, though there's not enough anti-racking strength built into the design. But the real problem is, the final assembly was given to a cabinet assembler who had access to a pin nailer. He/she put two nails into every mortise and tenon joint (see detail image). Augh.

The blown apart joint shows crystallized glue and I'm not sure what it is (not blown poly) but it looks like someone tried a repair because it is everywhere in the joint and the crack in the solid stock.

I have four of these in the shop, another four in storage at the bank, and probably some more to do.

I am not sure about dealing with the nails. These are 100% oak. I have tried the tubular drill bits before, with little in the way of positive results. Any successful, not theoretical, ideas would be welcome.

I intend to add some structural stuff to these but am not sure yet where. The pattern of the failures suggests that they are weaker against side to side racking than they are against front to back (as in rocking back in the chair).


----------



## Dennisgrosen (Nov 14, 2009)

the only chair I had repaired after reinforced with nails was an oakbuild and I had to take out all nails
scrape the glue of and make new loose tenons and made the drawborring solution and let the dovels be
an ad to the design it wasn´t speciel pretty but the neighbor was happy it cuold be safed

Dennis


----------



## mtkate (Apr 18, 2009)

Ooof, Lee. That looks really scary. I lucked out (of sorts, not really) discovering that the joints are dowelled and not mortise/tenon. I am looking at yours and would have no clue what to do. With two nails - the idea of just knocking it away is scary,


----------



## LeeBarker (Aug 6, 2010)

I am still stumped. Fortunately I told the client that there may be one sacrificial chair, meaning I would use various sound components from several, but I may just use one to experiment.

My plan is to put two on the work table, assemble a bunch of hand tools on my adjacent bench, and start. As they say in wood carving (quoting George Blackman), "First, do something, then do something to that, then do something to that…"

Thanks for bumping this up. Maybe we'll get some more input.


----------



## KB1 (Oct 7, 2009)

In case anyone is still watching this thread of thought-I learned fron an oldtimer that white vinegar will help dissolve most of the older type glues. I keep it (appropriatly) in an old glue bottle in my arsenal of refinishing tools. Just wet a paper towell with it and let soak on an old tenon to remove the old glue. Reglue with tite bond2 and you are good to go. Hopefully you will never revisit the same piece again! Good luck, KB1


----------



## toddc (Mar 6, 2007)

I am a big fan of using epoxy on fixes like these.

I have done many chair repairs for restaurants and coffee shops. They all have similar issues. I knock them apart, then remove the nail, tape off the area, inject epoxy and clamp up.

You have to get the epoxy off when it starts to get some body to it but before it fully sets up. It will peel right off the tape and even finished surface at that point.


----------



## Knothead62 (Apr 17, 2010)

Nails are the universal repair medium, next to duct tape. Needless to say, nails can be a problem. Good advice here. I'll make a mental note on the acvice.
I reworked an oak table in a SS classroom. Instead of glue to fix it, it had about 15 nails in it, which worked loose over time. I was able to dissasemble the table, remove the nails, and glue-and-clamp it back together. Solid as a rock with no wiggle-wobble.
BTW, decent chair, easy to duplicate.


----------



## LeeBarker (Aug 6, 2010)

Started a blog about furniture repairs….first focus, the stuff I showed in the images above. Lots of progress today. Click blog over there to the left, right by my right ear. If you're interested in repairs. Or challenges. Or both.


----------



## mtkate (Apr 18, 2009)

Lee, I will definitely check out your blog. KB1 - very interesting about the vinegar. I have a tenon with yellow junk (glue) stuck on the end of it. Seems this piece has several different types of glues on it…. I'll give it a shot. The hot air gun that Bob suggests also sounds worth it.


----------

