# Great features, Horrible Alignment Issues



## richgreer (Dec 25, 2009)

An 1/8th of an inch out of alignment!! That's a LOT!! That makes the saw worthless unless it can be fixed.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

To bad another case not to buy Crapsman


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## PineInTheAsh (Jun 14, 2009)

I hear the two gentlemen above here, but let me ask a sincere question.
What if this saw listed for $199.00 was on sale at $99.00 and with a super Sears coupon it could be had for $59.00?

-Peter


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## Routerisstillmyname (Oct 16, 2008)

You can modify those holes. just re-drill them with slightly larger drill bit and that will give you room to adjust.Or make the holes slightly ellipse as I did on my Ridgid when I first got it . I couldn't align it at all before that.


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## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

I would re-drill the holes larger and alilgn everything. 
I know one should not have to do that but "things' happen.


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## Chelios (Jan 2, 2010)

Good quality shouldn't be a matter of luck and or chance. This mentality that getting a lemon from time to time is normal in customers/retailers brought down the auto industry in the US. I refuse to put up with poor quality products. Knowing that a company will give me good quality only on ocasion makes me turn away for good.

Thanks for sharing your take on craftsman.


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## richgreer (Dec 25, 2009)

I'd like to respond to PineInTheAsh (neat name). I believe in the fundamental concept that "you get what you pay for" and there is a corollary to that statement, "it always cost more to buy cheap tools".

In both my photography hobby and my woodworking hobby I have often bought something that was cheap and then later replaced it with a good quality item. This makes buying the cheap item in the first place a waste of money. I don't need or desire top quality at a super expensive price. I just want good quality at a reasonable price. For example, I think Jet tools are good and I don't spend the extra for Jet's high priced sibling, Powermatic.


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## Routerisstillmyname (Oct 16, 2008)

I do agree with chelios, however sometimes it's more productive to take the initiative and resolve an issue if it's slight modification while waiting for new parts to arrive.
Especially with table saw. Not something you can easily drag back to the store.


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## GuyK (Mar 26, 2007)

Craftsman Table Saw, Craftsman 14" Bandsaw, Craftsman Chop Saw, Craftmans Jointer, Craftsman Router. 
Plus other Craftsman tools in my shop along with other brands. Craftsmans works just fine, always has, right out the box.

Sorry for your problems Bob. I hope it gets resolved soon

Seems if you look on the site, you will see a lot of issues with other companies, some issues have gone on for days and weeks talking about bad tools from companies. But good old Craftsman that have been around longer them then all, still gets the crap handed to it everytime someone has a issue. Oh well, mine work just fine and they have provided me with hours of trouble free enjoyment and some nice projects.

*glivingston - BRAVO!!!!!!!!*


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## cstrang (Sep 22, 2009)

I am not a fan of Craftsman, they used to be really good quality but unfortunately like a few other quality machine companies they have gone bad, hopefully these companies will clean up their act sooner rather than later. And hopefully your problem will be resolved, best of luck.


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## dmorgantx (Dec 16, 2009)

So that won't take it back at this point or you aren't ready to give up yet? You spend too much on this to have it not work out, and 1/8" is a safety issue. On the discussion about people with lemons complaining more- I don't see how this is unfair to Craftsman. If (by your logic) you had more lemons from another company out there- you would have more 'bad' reviews for them as well. I'm not jumping on one side or the other but…


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## AKWoody (Sep 28, 2009)

I almost bought one of these when a sale hit, glad I didnt!


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## Norv (Jan 27, 2010)

I have the same model…except for some fence adjustment…it was ready to rock and roll right from the box. Even the best have quality issues…....what about Toyota?


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## docholladay (Jan 9, 2010)

I noticed that one gentleman noted that he had a similar alignment problem with a Ridgid Table Saw. Has anyone made the connection that Ridgid and Craftsman power tools are made in the same factory. Also Ryobi for that matter. Generally, the lower end of the price and quality spectrum.

In my opinion, if you cannot afford the higher quality tools new, shop for used. You can often find older tools much less expensively than even that Craftsman saw. Often you can find something bigger, more powerful and better quality, all at a lower price. You do have to check it out closely, and you may have to invest some elbow grease to clean it up, but, for a hobbyist such as myself, it is a much better value.

Myself, I purchased a 30 year old Delta Unisaw (probably better quality than a new one would have been before the most recent updates). The motor was sound, the bearings were solid. No runout. Even had a Biesmeyer Fence. I spent about 2 hours cleaning a little bit of rust and aligning everything and it ran great. I only spent $200 for the saw. It was missing the miter gauge so I bought the small Incra gauge for $60.00 when Woodcraft had them on sale. I also invested in new belts. For less than $300, I have a saw I would put against anything that Craftsman offers at any price.


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## MedicKen (Dec 2, 2008)

I would take the saw back. If it cant be adjusted as described it is a manufacturing defect and should be exchanged.


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## Bryan_M (Jan 25, 2010)

I had that same problem with this saw. Mine was also at LEAST 1/8" off… seemed like more though. I got mine a few weeks ago. I was able to adjust it out, though it wasn't easy, required clamps and shims and my wife holding a piece of wood I wedged in there as a lever but I was able to make it work. I don't know how far its off now, I used the combination square method and it just rubs the same amount on the tooth of the blade so I assume thats pretty good.

The only other problem I have is I can't figure out how to square the fence. It is angled slightly towards the blade which makes a dangerous situation. If I press the end out as I'm clamping it I can make it square. My fear is that I will forget to do this and end up pinching some wood between the blade and the fence and have a wooden missile shot at me.


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## machinerydoc (Feb 8, 2010)

Gentleman, Sounds like he just wanted you all to know what he went through. Yes we all have our similar stores and hindsight is 20/20. OK from a machinery guru who has been selling and repairing machinery for over 30 years, you have two options. One, see if you can return it and buy something else, problem solved. Two, as has been mentioned you can most likely remove the trunion assembly and re-drill the mounting holes (not the tapped holes in the table but the through holes in the trunion) then re-align the assembly and with a straight edge align the blade parallel to one of the t-slots on the table. Do not align with the fence. After this is correct then align your fence to your t-slot. This gives you a much better reference point than the blade. Make sure you have a couple of degrees back clearance between the fence and the blade as to not bind. Good luck!


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## dfdye (Jan 31, 2010)

When I buy Craftsman, it is usually because the deal is too good to pass up. I have bought a few tools on clearance or insane sales that have been workhorses in my shop. I have a Craftsman contractor saw I got for cheap ~ 8 years ago that is my only table saw. The fence is a little touchy to use (and I will be upgrading it at some point) but is accurate and the saw was well adjusted out of the box (I banged it around moving it a few times and have had to re-adjust it, but that has been pretty easy). I have a couple of Craftsman routers (just got another one a week or so ago that I need to write a review of) that I really like, and a plethora of hand tools that haven't ever given me any problems.

I just picked up one of their discontinued "high end" Craftsman Professional planers on clearance for ~$200. I had a couple of peripheral pieces missing, called the store, and had the parts within a week. My local Sears may be the exception, but they are really easy to deal with and are exceptionally helpful. I know good and well that Craftsman tools are not the crown jewels of the woodworking world, but there are deals to be found. I personally have never had a problem returning something that didn't work out. I have never dealt with having actual repairs done to any of my tools through Sears because none have ever broken beyond what I could easily fix myself (the biggest issue I have had is a collet locking pin breaking on one of my routers, and that has been it other than regular maintenance).

I know this won't change anyone's mind that hates Craftsman, and I may just be the lucky one, but my experience has been that they make some decent tools that can be had for decent prices if you catch the sales right.


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## tiver (Nov 25, 2009)

Mine is right on!


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## jim611 (Feb 12, 2010)

I had the same problem with mine. Could not get the trunions to move no matter what. Stumbled onto this accidentally. Directly in front of the table insert are to tapped holes with set screw in them. One is the 90 degree stop and the other is the 45 degree stop for tilt. When the blade is at 90 is is tight against that stop. i loosened the 90 degree set screw and then was able to move the trunions and align the saw. Hope this helps.

-Jim


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## NormG (Mar 5, 2010)

JIM611 - You may have found the secret. I purchased this two weeks ago at a great sale price (my wife was gracious enough to let me upgrade). Just now had the time to put it together. Out of the box mine was out .047. Could not get it to come close. My 17 year old son, saw your post and showed it to me. We tried it and it snapped right into place dead on. Tighten the hex bolts up slowly and all is well. Now the kids can use that big box it came in for a fort (I kept it in case I had to return).

-Norman


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## monkeywrenching (Mar 3, 2010)

I got one last week and in the info pkg. they offer the same fix as Jim611 stated.


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## mwh (Feb 21, 2010)

I have purchased this saw and am struggling with alignment of blade to miter slot I am finding I can align the blade to within +/-.001 at a given height. However when I raise or lower the blade, about 1 to 2in, the alignment is off by around .008 to .015. I have tried aligning at max height(about 3in), about 1/4 in under there the blade really cocks left as you reach max height. Then going down 1-2 in, cal is off by over .012. If I align at 2in, then lower to 1", alignment stays closer, off about .008 or so. I can get the cal to stay under .005 if I do initial alignment at 1.5" and go down to 0.5 in height and not over 2.

So the more I move the height the worse the alignment goes off. Seems to be worse in higher end of blade height, but this may be due to the fact that the horizontal span is also much smaller at lower blade heights.

Is this normal, am I being to too anal about this. I expect the blade to stay aligned thru the entire height range. I can return the saw easiliy as it's within the 90days.

I've got a dial gage and clamping this miter gage, marking a blade tooth staying with this spot, so I think I'm aligning correctly. I have an EB3 miter gauge, good and tight in the slot.

I'm thinking this is just a cheaper trunion design and I got what I paid for.

any comments welcome.


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## BoardRunner (Mar 20, 2010)

I got the 21833 a couple of weeks ago to replace a 35 year old Rockwell/ Delta. The price was right and I was quite impressed with the features. I was aware of the alignment issues but I thought I could deal with it. As other comments stated the instructions could have been better, but after separating the hardware bags and checking off each step, things went pretty smoothly. Since so many comments have been directed to the lack of adjustablilty in the trunnions I decided to make my own PAL's out of some 1/4" angle stock then planned on removing the trunnions and widening the holes while the table was still upside down in the styrofoam. When I removed the first 10mm allen head trunnion bolt I saw the problem. The round head of the allen screw trunnion bolt is smaller than the oversized trunnion bolt hole. When the bolt is tightened it compresses the lock washer against the flat washer sinking it into the hole enough to create a concave self centering dimple that always keeps moving the trunnions back to their original location whenever you tighten the bolts. The simple fix was use 10mm coarse pitch (not fine pitch as stated in the parts list in the manual) hex head or better yet flange head bolts with lock washers and flat washers. The bigger heads won't sink into the trunnion holes and prevent the trunnions from being properly adjusted. Pryor to doing this my blade was .026" out of alignment with my miter track. After a few minutes of adjustment I'm .001" away from the rear of the fence.
An earlier comment asked about squaring up the fence. Page 11 of the manual explains this using a square. If you look also on pages 18 and 19 of the manual, items 11 are two screws one on the left and one on the right side of the locking handle on the fence head (they call base). As with the blade adjustment, I used a dial indicator mounted on a board and piece of 3/4" track sliding in the mitre slot reading the front and back of the fence. Adjusting these screws and using the dial indicator, I'm within .001".
The only necessary changes needed to make this saw great was to replace the four trunnion bolts.


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## mwh (Feb 21, 2010)

Now that you mention it, I did notice my washers on the trunnion bolts were bent. I purchased the PALs and was able to use them. From a post here, I purchased the 5/16th ones and drilled the hole out to match the M10 bolts. I got around the bent washer problem you mention, quite accidentally. PALS took care of it in the front and I remember being frustrated with the movement as I tightened the rear, so i just barely loosened both of these. Will I will change to the bolts you mention.

So I managed to get it aligned.

Did you align at max height? Did you happen to re-measure after lowering about an inch or 2.


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## BoardRunner (Mar 20, 2010)

MHW, 
Make sure you get the 10mm coarse thread trunnion bolts longer to compensate for the PALS. I don't know what the thickness is of the purchased PALS are, but my angles are 1/4" thick, so to compensate for these homemade PALS, the trunnion, punch washer, lock washer and cast iron tables tapped holes, I purchased 40mm long bolts. The tables tapped holes are approximately 1" deep. The original allen head bolts screw in about 1/2". I'm in about 5/8". If you are using the original trunnion bolts with the new PALS and washers I might be concerned about how many threads are really screwed into the table. Be careful.
I will have to check on the blade allignment at lower than full height sometime tomorrow. To buy this saw I had my "honey do list" increased quite a bit, so I'm trying to finish up a few other things around here for my wife. Good luck.


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## NormG (Mar 5, 2010)

My saw is dead on at the moment, but I plan on purchasing some new bolts as described above. So in the event I have to make an adjustment, I will change them out at that time. Amazing how a simple design issue can cause so much frustration, it is not?

I have been using this saw about 2 weeks now and love it. Having to go to the back of the saw to raise of lower the rears wheels is a minor issue though.


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## smitty22 (May 1, 2010)

Hi all, first post here, most interested in the 21833 trunnion/blade alignment issues, since my new Craftsman 21833 saw has the same problem as MHW described: blade aligned OK with miter slot at max height, but deviates as it's lowered, slewed almost .075" at the front of the blade in fully lowered position.

Other than that, the saw seems fine, several compromises here and there but for the money, I'm learning to live with those. *Gotta get the alignment issue resolved, it's unacceptable. * New bolts are in the future! Thanks for all the information.


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## smitty22 (May 1, 2010)

No joy here, new trunion bolts helped but still major problem with the arbor and trunion machining on this saw, sold the darn thing!


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## olddutchman (Aug 17, 2007)

I wonder How many folks didn't bother to write to tell You how there saw was ok. I will guess, however that all who had a problem, or two were johnnie on the spot to complain. I have several Sears tools, and have never had to complain. The second issue is, Most Sears stores have people to build up the tools for the buyer, who need a job, but have never used their tools. I know this, because a relative of mine worked for Sears. If I buy a tool that a store, (especialy the larger box stores) has to build up, I always recheck over the the manual and double check the job they did. I have found loose bolts, missing bolts, and a few other issues. But, I can't say that after I 'v done the check, that I have felt jyped. Also, remember, You cant buy a Ford, and expect a Cadilac!


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## smitty22 (May 1, 2010)

Dutchman, point well taken, I have lots of Sears tools that have served me well for over 45 years, one grinder is even older than that and still runs like a top.

Hard to say how many of this model are free of the defect seen in mine and others reported, but based on reports of the same problem, the issue is not just a cheap tool or incorrect assembly, but instead is truly a manufacturing defect that shouldn't have ever allowed these units to get out the door.

And further, you'e right on the money about the stuff assembled by the retail store (not just Sears), never trust the tool without almost doing the assembly over again yourself. Unfortunate but so true.


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## NormG (Mar 5, 2010)

Bought this saw in February of this 2010. Have not had much time to use until recently. Works just like it should until I was cutting some finger joints in 1" stock (first time with this saw). They were not seating square at assembly. I checked everything, my backing board was replaced thinking it had warped or something as here in Virginia we have had a very hot and humid summer and I do not have A/C in my shop and I have a aluminum jig. My neighbor checked behind me and still had the same problem. We put my setup on his TS with the same results. We then took my jig and attached it to his Inca Miter Gauge, the joint was great. We used his Miter in my TS and everything was fine also. Checked my Miter Gauge and the face is not at 90 degree to the TS Top. Of course there is no way to adjust this, so I need to go ahead and get a Miter Gauge sooner than I had planned.


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## dczward (May 23, 2011)

I know this is an old thread, but it was one I read BEFORE I bought my 21833, my first TS. I've been using it for about 10 months, and have built cabinets, built-in book shelves, and lot of shop storage. The short: my 21833 is great, with none of the alignment issues warned about here. Maybe mine is a newer production run, and they've fixed the issue, I don't know. But this saw has turned out to be a dream. As I've progressed through learning about woodworking and specifically TS setup and maintenance, I've found a few things: the fence system is pretty weak. I had my eye on an Incra LS-TS for a long time, and went for it this spring. Massive improvement. I then got a high resolution dial gauge alignment tool, and when over teting and lignin everything in the saw: it wasn't very far out, and I was able to get it to .002, which I feel is pretty good. The moral; don't let a few panic stories scare you out of a good deal.


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## VinnieP (Apr 22, 2009)

BoardRunner,

Thanks for the tip about the bolts. I've had this saw a while now but never tuned it up because I was doing a lot of rough cuts on it. Now that I'm getting closer to wanting accuracy I tried your suggestion. I put the coarse threaded bolts on the trunnions and when I tested the miter to blade it was dead on. I didn't have to adjust the trunnion at all. I got lucky when I tightened the bolts I guess. I did have a little adjusting to do on the fence to blade but it didn't take long. Thanks again!


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## bobthebuilderinmichigan (Feb 6, 2010)

A follow up to my story here. After about 6 weeks of waiting, I finally got Sears to send out a repairman, who did drill out new bolt holes that allowed the blade to align properly AT FULL HEIGHT. When I lowered the blade to 1" it would go out of alignment but not as much as it had been before. So I actually used the thing for a coulple of months until the whole trunion actually cracked in half! Needless to say I went to Sears and worked out a deal with the manager at the store where I bought it. I somewhat dissassembled the saw into a few parts that made it easier to pack it up and return it to the store and they gave me the next model up (Model 351.221140) for an additional $100. If I had written letters and yelled and screamed some more I probably could have gotten a better deal but by this time I was worn out (which is probably what they count on). The happy ending is that I love the model I have (it has been discontinued in the past year however) and have been using it now for about a year and a few months. It came virtually dead on out of the box and still is today. All the reviews of the 351.221140 were great - between 4 and 5 stars-which is why I agreed to go with that one instead of getting a refund and buying elsewhere. Funny that Sears discontinue the model that worked but is still trying to sell the one that doesn't. I can't figure it out.


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## smitty22 (May 1, 2010)

Bob, glad to hear that your story has a happy ending! Best of luck with the new TS.

My guess is that Sears bought a boatload of the 21833, but the bad rep spread pretty fast… It's all over the internet. As I recall, that model went on sale very quickly after first introduced.

Cheers! 
Dale


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