# Unbiased cyclone dust collector reviews and comparisons?



## marcuscraft (Nov 14, 2012)

Looking at upgrading the dust collection set up in a new shop, so thinking of getting a cyclone collector. Is there any source that actually compares these with some real world tests?


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## AandCstyle (Mar 21, 2012)

Read Bill Pentz' site to learn more than you ever wanted to know. The main take away is that only Clear Vue cyclones are made to his specifications, but there is a whole lot more to it than just the cyclone-tubing diameter, length of runs, number of bends, minimizing the use of flex tubing, enlarging the dust ports in machines, etc. HTH


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

There are a lot of opinions on what's best.

If I had my druthers I'd have a baghouse cyclone
like a Murphy Rodgers and it would be outside 
the shop. I live in a warm climate though.

Felder makes a nice unit. Beaucoup bucks.

Read this:
http://www.woodcentral.com/bparticles/saw_dust_collection.shtml


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## timbertailor (Jul 2, 2014)

> Read Bill Pentz site to learn more than you ever wanted to know. The main take away is that only Clear Vue cyclones are made to his specifications, but there is a whole lot more to it than just the cyclone-tubing diameter, length of runs, number of bends, minimizing the use of flex tubing, enlarging the dust ports in machines, etc. HTH
> 
> - AandCstyle


I agree. A very good starting point and caution about the dangers of the finer particles.


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## marcuscraft (Nov 14, 2012)

Very familiar with bill's site, but I'm not sure it meets my requirements for unbiased…unless I know I want a ClearVue cyclone. I was hoping there was some organization who had actually compared similar units in real world tests.

I had two separate shops due to space constraints but we just moved so am consolidating everything. I currently have an el cheap unit hooked to the planer and jointer and an Oneida mini gorilla hooked to the rest of the tools not making the huge mess. I'm not happy with cheap collector for fine stuff, but it's not meant to capture that, so not a good solution for the shop. I'm really not happy with the mini gorilla. I think its a pretty poor design as I get a ton of debris in the filter. I dont think the funnel,is big enough to get that cyclone action fully going to get everything to drop out. It does a good job of filtering it out of the air, but I feel like I'm cleaning out the filter more than I'm making sawdust.


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

I haven't seen any specific cyclone reviews in quite some time. The May, 2013 issue of Wood (issue 218) had a review of "whole shop DC's" that included 4 cyclones. They picked an Oneida model as the best tool….as an Oneida owner I would really challenge that so I don't know how "unbiased" it was (Oneida provided the system installed in their new shop some years earlier). They were lambasted for not including the CV, the authors later reviewed the CV and, in turn, really bashed it. I think it's very hard to get what you want. Everyone's opinion of their unit (including mine) is biased by their own opinion of what makes the unit good, bad, or indifferent. I hate my Oneida, but a lot folks with the same one think it's the best thing since night baseball. All I can do is wish you the best with your choices.


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## WhyMe (Feb 15, 2014)

Here's a couple of comparisons of shopvac types on Wood Whisperer…

http://www.thewoodwhisperer.com/videos/cyclone-separator-shootout/

Here's a video of a ClearVue install….

http://www.thewoodwhisperer.com/videos/installing-a-clear-vue-cv1800-cyclone/


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## marcuscraft (Nov 14, 2012)

Good info Fred. Just curious, why are you not a fan of your Oneida? I kinda feel like Im alone out there saying my mini gorilla just isnt up to snuff, but still interested in the other larger Oneida units because of all the favorable user reviews.


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## WhyMe (Feb 15, 2014)

I have the Oneida Super Dust Deputy and I'm satisfied with it, but to be honest I have had no other cyclone to compare it to. The only complaint I have is that I really had to struggle to get the 4" and 5" hose adapters that I needed to use for my hoses to fit the cyclone. I used a heat gun to soften the flange on the cyclone but still couldn't get the adapters to slide in. I ended up cutting slots in the flanges and used large hose clamps on the flanges. Other than that I'm happy with it.


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## Grandpa (Jan 28, 2011)

I remember the articles that Fred Hargis spoke of. Wood magazine had their ENGINEERS set up and test some collectors then the next month or so later after taking a bashing they tested the Clear Vue. They really bashed that system. I have a Clear Vue and happened to have the manual for it. Their ENGINEERS didn't connect the filters as outlined by Clear Vue. That was their complaint. The Clear Vue put too much dust into the air. What should they expect with their inability to look at pictures and assemble parts. That was when I made the decision to allow my subscription to lapse. I was a charter subscriber but no more for me. I would take anything they print with a grain of salt. I worked in an engineering dept. for 30 years and we would have been run off for less.


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

> Good info Fred. Just curious, why are you not a fan of your Oneida? I kinda feel like Im alone out there saying my mini gorilla just isnt up to snuff, but still interested in the other larger Oneida units because of all the favorable user reviews.
> 
> - Marcus


Marcus, it's a really long story. Right now my complaint is that the basic design just doesn't do the seperation of the finest particles very well. My runs at 98.4% efficiency (yep, I measured it for Oneida), but that isn't enough. When I was using my DS heavily, I'd have to stop and clean the filter quite often. I wound up putting a gauge on it to tell me when to clean it. But that's the last of a long line of things I didn't like, and the first was I had to change to motor. The original 2 HP Baldor wasn't big enough for the air flow my duct work provided, it was in constant overload (amp reading). I wound up putting a 5HP Leeson (from CV, no less) on it….eventually Oneida picked up on my grumblings on one of these forums and reimbursed me the $400 I spent on the upgrade. There were maybe 3-4 other smaller things I went through. I'm thoroughly disgusted with the whole thing and wished i had just went with the CV from the beginning. That said, when I detail these things a few folks always want to try and help me troubleshoot the whole thing. I always ask that not be the case. I spent hours (literally) on the phone with Oneida, and sent them a considerable amount of information on my system including a sketch of my ductwork, pics, even a sample of the filter dust at their request (to the pres, Bill Witter, no less). Never heard another word from them. My biggest complaint remains the basic design, it just isn't built to any of the criteria that Pentz found to help separation. I will say this: it's built well, like a tank, if it just had some sound engineering behind it…...like the impeller, it's a work of art!


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## Manitario (Jul 4, 2010)

Bill Pentz came up with his cyclone design based on his own research (and his own money). Both the design and his website were developed long before Clearvue came along and used his design, so his info is about as unbiased as you can get. 
Interestingly, Clearvue started off as a father/son team copying Bill's design and making the cyclone out of plastic in their garage. For a number of years, Clearvue cyclones were sold "made to order" in their garage and advertised by word of mouth. 
I made my decision on what cyclone to buy by reading through Bill's site and then taking the DC principles he outlines and researching for myself the specs of the major cyclone brands on the market. Dust collectors are actually pretty simple machines with consistent principles that govern their performance.

-impeller size and motor HP govern the performance of the unit; larger impeller and motor are needed to maintain CFM at higher static pressures (ie. the "friction") of the dust collection piping etc. Fairly easy to find an online static pressure calculator, but for most weekend warrior sized workshops the static pressure (with 6" ducting) is going to average around 7-8"WC. This number can be used to look at a specific company's DC's fan curve to see what sort of CFM you're going to end up with.

-cyclone unit: no magic or mystery here, just a fancy tube to separate out dust from the air column, which is the whole reason to get a cyclone in the first place. More dust hitting the filters = decrease in airflow/drop in CFM and more frequent filter cleaning. Most are very similar in design; less efficient designs result in most dust hitting the filters. I have less than a tablespoon of fine dust in my filter clean out every time I empty my dust collection bin.

-filter size: larger filter size = higher airflow. The most efficient DC's simply blow the air outside. For some reason, Oneida cyclone units have some of the smallest filters on the market, which is one of the principle reasons why I didn't go with Oneida when I bought my DC (110 sqft vs 600 with Clearvue/Penn State Ind. vs. 225sqft with Grizzly, Laguna/General International don't post filter sqft).

I went with Clearvue b/c it offered a 5hp machine that was cheaper and had a much larger filter size than Oneida. Would have gone with Penn State Industries if they'd offered larger cyclone units (only offered up to 3hp when I bought my DC) as their specs are similar or better than the other major DC's on the market but less expensive.

My shop is ~600sqft with 6" ducting, the longest run is about 25'. Testing with a pitot tube and a digital manometer revealed my setup to be 10.5" WC of static pressure; average CFM on my machines with a 6" duct is over 700. For my machines with 4" DC flanges (jointer/tablesaw) the CFM is around 400 (which is a pretty good reason to upgrade the DC flanges to 6"). Small (<2.5micron) particle count measurement during a typical full day in the shop averages around 400, which is better than my household air.


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## intelligen (Dec 28, 2009)

I read the WOOD article and found it very helpful, but I would have liked a follow-up article where they sealed all the joints on all the machines, added the ClearVue, and retested.


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## English (May 10, 2014)

I recently ran into an article on the internet about neutral vanes and air ramps and how they rob separation efficiency in order to increase air flow. Per the article allowing the circulating air to collide with the incoming air improves the collection efficiency and the neutral vane and air ramps have been installed in the home shop market DC's to reduce pressure drop and keep HP and blower size smaller.

So the solution to clean filters is still frequent cleaning or maybe a commercial DC.

I clean my filters by reversing the flow threw my filters after each use. I keep my filter pressure below .5"H2O. I recently sanded 35 bf of maple down from 15/16 to 3/4 " with a 24" drum sander. The filter pressure never changed.


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

You can't prove that with mine…it's the lack of a proper neutral vane, no air ramp at all, and improper body dimensions that cause it to separate so poorly (my opinion). Needs a squared sloping inlet as well. On the other hand, it does move a lot of air.


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## Manitario (Jul 4, 2010)

Interesting; my Clearvue uses a neutral vane inlet with an air ramp. My back pressure on my filters has pretty much consistently stayed at 0.5"WC despite my often negligence in cleaning the filters.


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

Those design features are specifically designed to increase separation, and the reduce air flow. That's why the Pentz design has such a kick-ass impeller and motor….that's how you increase air flow.


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## marcuscraft (Nov 14, 2012)

Found the article from WOOD that a few people here referenced:

http://www.oneida-air.com/PDF/Wood%20Dust%20Collector%20review.pdf

Actually pretty close to what I was looking for. I also read over on Sawmill Creek the whole controversy over omitting and then retesting the ClearVue. For me, the ClearVue was off the list anyways due to price and my perceived value (MDF, a good deal of assembly/sealing).

It looks like Oneida has updated their cyclones and now no longer use steel in all of them, but use a "resin" cone in some of the lower end units. Just one more variable to consider I suppose!


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## Manitario (Jul 4, 2010)

> Found the article from WOOD that a few people here referenced:
> 
> http://www.oneida-air.com/PDF/Wood%20Dust%20Collector%20review.pdf
> 
> ...


It's not shocking that an Oneida sponsored shop ended up finding that Oneida DC's are the best…not sure that this fits your criteria of "unbiased"


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## marcuscraft (Nov 14, 2012)

I think one of their largest advertisers is Grizzly actually…which definitely did not finish at the top. I guess people can put whatever bias they want into it. This is the most neutral and comprehensive write up I've seen, if you have something better, please share.


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## intelligen (Dec 28, 2009)

Publications are often criticized for writing biased reviews. It sounds like there may have been some issues when WOOD tested the ClearVue, but from what I've read some of those could have been attributed to differences in the testing procedures. As Marcus pointed out, Grizzly buys a lot of ad space in WOOD, yet Grizzly products are often not rated at the top (and, in the case of the dust collectors, the Grizzly units were rated as having the worst filtration).

I think it stands to reason that WOOD would have replaced their Oneida system if they thought one of the other dust collectors could have performed better. After all, they're breathing the air in the shop.


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## buildingmonkey (Mar 1, 2014)

I have a 2hp woodsucker cyclone, no longer in business, but a pretty good unit for a 2 hp. Would not go less than 3 hp now, having a small widebelt sander, and edge sander. It does work pretty well considering. If you want to go cheap, follow Bill Pentz directions for building your own cyclone. Saw where someone on ebay had sheet metal cyclones you could buy. Think that was on Bill's site as well.


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

Marcus, glad that article was of use.


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## ducky911 (Oct 6, 2010)

I have probably read everything posted about DC's on the web. A lot to wade through. I have done some testing as I bought a db meter, wind speed meter and a Dylos meter.

I had a grizzley 2hp and made a thien baffle…was not happy.

I now have the clear vue setup installed and with only my first 30 gals of dust…nothing in the cleanout filter box..nothing….I use a drum sander alot

From my testing I have found that Bill Pentz was right on the money, even though at first I though he was a bit of a nut.


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## marcuscraft (Nov 14, 2012)

Heh, from everything I've read, Bill Pentz is a bit nuts. Found a couple woodworking forums where he's actually banned from. That definitely doesnt mean he can't know dust collection though!

So have you tested out the DBs on your ClearVue? Sound level is high on my list of priorities as this will be in a basement shop.


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## ducky911 (Oct 6, 2010)

Just forget about any reports of a low db DC. I think they all like to say they are in the 70db .. when the truth is 90db.

You can get an ap for your smart phone to test dbs. I did that but also bought one on amazon as they are cheap enough.

I have built a small closet around my CV and have it down below 70dbs with all the gates closed. But when you open up a gate it get noisy as moving air (this is what you want) makes noise. So really I was worried about the noise level a bit to much. When testing dbs you can get a big difference as to where and how you hold the meter tso be careful when reading reports.


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## CharlesA (Jun 24, 2013)

I haven't tested the dbs on my CMDC, but it's *way* quieter than the shopvac it replaced.


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## fge (Sep 8, 2008)

As for DC noise levels, what has worked well for us is running enough loud machines at one time that the DC noise gets drowned out. Many times when several machines are running at once I cannot even hear the DC. It tends to work good for us.


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## djg (Jun 24, 2012)

Here is a review I did a few years ago…love the collector. I am fairly vigilant about cleaning the filters yearly and have made a few changes as suggested in the postings


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## marcuscraft (Nov 14, 2012)

Love the review DJG…I just wish manufacturers would send equipment to people like you to actually do some testing. It's amazing what knowledge you can gain what you approach a review unbiased.

As an update to this threat, I purchased the new Oneida V3000 last week and it hopefully should be here this week. They're no longer making the steel cones and have switched over to a molded plastic. I spent quite a while on the phone with them and they basically convinced me to give it a try (and gave me a discount after I complained a bit about my experience with the mini gorilla). I'm looking forward to putting it through it's paces, but sadly, I dont think it will be objective as your review DJG!


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## buildingmonkey (Mar 1, 2014)

Marcus, I looked at the Oneida V 3000, but it does not list much in the way of specs. No impeller size, just 13 amps, 3hp. What size is the impeller? Is it in the 15 to 16" size range that Bill Pentz recommends? Not saying it won't work well for you anyway. Comparing price with the Grizzly GO441, looks like a good price except the shipping is 150 more from Oneida.


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## RichardHillius (Oct 19, 2013)

Before plans changed and I ended up selling the house I was finishing a basement shop and was going to build a room for my DC that had a double layer of that sound deadening dry wall on it and I was going to lift the DC off the floor to help reduce vibration that way. Most of the larger dust collectors are going to be load in a average basement shop if they are in the work space. I think I remember the Clear Veu can hit 90db or higher at 6' or so but it 's been a few years since I checked that. It would be pretty uncomfortable for me to be in the same room as that thing unless it was a good distance away and even than I think a closet would be better. I don't believe this is unique to Clear Vue by the way. As I said any larger dust collector is going to be loud and even my 1.5HP portable I tend to wear ear protection when I use in a garage shop. My lunchbox planner drowns out the DC easily but some of the other tools you can't even hear running when the DC is on.


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## CharlesA (Jun 24, 2013)

Surprisingly, my harbor freight dust collector only registers in the mid 50s db.


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## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

I have read Pentz site and there is a lot of good information there if you are going to build the perfect dust collection system. All of his recommendations are great if you can afford them. What per cent of people can build such a thing….1%. I can not afford a 5 hp system with 6" metal ducts…etc. I am not putting down Pentz and his site but I simply can not afford the recommendations and this is the same for most of us on this forum.

What we really need is to have some sites or topics that are more aimed at what we can do with lesser equipment. How can I make a 2 HP dust collector function the best that I can? What is the best way to spend my limited money to reduce the harmful dust as much as possible. What parts of the system are most helpful?

What do others find


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## marcuscraft (Nov 14, 2012)

Impeller is 14.5". I respect Bill's opinion, but I am kind of in Redoak's boat…where does the average woodworker call it good enough and move on? Would a 5hp motor and a 16" impeller be better…but worth the cost FOR ME? Nope. Maybe for someone else and I am absolutely fine with that. What finally sold me on the Oneida over the ClearVue was that it comes (mostly) assembled. No cans of caulk for me! Im not saying this is BETTER but just a personal preference of what I would rather use my time for (and thats not hunting down leaks on a $2k dust collector). One aspect of the Oneida that I think IS better than the ClearVue is they actually mount the fan to the motor and make sure it's balanced. Less noise and easier on the motor…great thing for a machine like this in my opinion.

The choice over Grizzly really came down to the Oneida being made in the USA. I mentioned that I have an Onedia Mini Gorilla that I am not so pleased with. Oneida came through with some good customer service and gave me a discount on the V3000 to retain a customer and making the prices including shipping right about the same. Don't get me wrong, I think Grizzly makes some nice machinery, I have a table saw and planer of theirs thats gotten some heavy use and work like a champ.

The Oneida just arrived yesterday and I just unboxed it this morning. Definitely not a perfect unit, but I'll put it through it's paces for a couple months before giving a full review. As mentioned above, my review wont be like DJG's as I dont have the test setup he has (im quite jealous!), but I will be as impartial as I possibly can. I dont have a problem pointing out the warts of a machine as I hope this will make it better for the next person who buys one and I just hope other people are as honest as possible w/ reviews so that the next machine I buy is better because of them.


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## dvail12 (Jan 1, 2013)

I think I was the first on my block to buy an Oneida cyclone, with the internal filter. It got to be a pain to clean and get the steel band around the body. I just sold it for a bargain to a younger woodworker. So I am on the hunt for a DC system. There is a lot out there. I have read Bill Pentz, all sounds good and reasonable, but like others cost is a factor. In my decision making it seems to me the less fine dust that gets to the filter the better. The filters are expensive to replace. According to Pentz the longer the cone the more particulate is settled out. This would eliminate the Baileigh system. Well priced, short cone. Oneida and Clearview have the longest cones. Oneida literature points out the filter will need to be replaced after 5-7 years with regular cleaning at a current cost of $345. Hmmm. Clearview is at a cost of close to $3000 or above with two filters. Clearview customer service tells me the filters don't get much dust to collect. What am I missing here?


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

My Oneida filter needed to be replaced after 6 years, I went with an aftermarket one form Pennstate that was pretty much plug and play, had a Merv rating of 15 (vs Oneida's 16) and over twice the media and a more robust construction than my OEM…for less than 1/2 the price. Even so, I've replaced my Oneida with a CV, and can't follow you $3000 number, mine was about $1700 without the brackets (shop built) and dust bin (reused a drum I had). I know The CV can add up, but $3K seems way off.


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## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

The ClearVue versus Oneida thing is like Chevy versus Ford. You have some that think Oneida is terrible and repeat their complaints on every dust collection thread. Personally, I think either does a fine job. I picked the Oneida because all the parts came with it such as the bin and other things. I liked the solid construction of the Oneida and no mdf parts.

Either unit sucks lot of air.


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## brtech (May 26, 2010)

<sorry>
The problem with say's Pentz is right, but I can't afford it, is that it puts your health at risk. If you don't get circa 700 CMF at the tool, then you won't pick up the fines, and you won't get safe air. That's fine if you wear a respirator. But if you wear a respirator. then what your DC is doing is making things look clean, and inexpensive DCs like the HF do that.

It's the impeller, the motor and the duct work that give you the basic airspeed. You can work the calculators all day long, but in the end, Pentz gives you the numbers: 3 - 5 HP and 15 or so inch impeller into 6 inch ducts. Anything you add to that drops your airspeed. Of course you need a filter, and a good one won't drop the speed all that much, but it does have resistance and it does slow down the airspeed. Again, you know what kind of filter you need: you have to get all the .5 micron and greater particles out of the air before it goes back into your shop. There isn't any magic there. It's filter material, MERVs and square feet and the physical arrangement of your DC. Cyclone design is somewhat of an art, but remember that the cyclone's job is to reduce the frequency at which you have to clean the filter. That's all it does, and it has insertion resistance, so it lowers airspeed. It's convenience, not safety. It's a very nice convenience, no doubt.

While it's certainly true that more is better, until you are picking up enough of the fines, more isn't good enough. There is a cliff: less that enough airspeed and the air isn't safe, over the cliff and it's considered safe. It's not a steep cliff, your particle count will be fairly low if you are measuring circa 650 CFM, and it gets lower stiff if you can get 800 or 900 CFM, but there are generally accepted limits for safety and you really need about 700 CFM to get there. That's the important part, IMO, that Pentz teaches us.

You could do something pretty silly like get a big enough impeller with a too small motor, a lousy filter and an inefficient cyclone and tell yourself you will gradually replace the parts until you get to good, wearing a respirator until you do. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but you could do that. But buying a complete system that can't be upgraded to develop circa 700 CFM at the tool consigns you to wearing a respirator until you replace the whole system.


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## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

Brtech. A pretty good analysis but a good system that meets Pentz criteria is around $2000. I have a 5 hp Oneida that provides the airflow. However, for a lot of people this is just not going to happen.

I see many people talk about their systems and do not really know what kind of flow they have and struggle understanding the performance curves and calculations. So many dust collectors have outlandish cfm claims.

I also see a huge room for improvement in the dust pickups and that includes me. The closer you are to the source the better one does getting dust. I also find a shop vac with HEPA filtration can work great on routers, drill presses and sanders. I think sanding creates the most fine dust. If you can not afford a HEPA rated vac at least put a HEPA filter on your vac.
.
Bottom line is do the best you can afford.


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