# Will my frustration ever end? Heating and cooling question.



## americanwoodworker (Nov 26, 2011)

I am just now really getting into woodworking. I saved up for many years to build a dedicated shop for woodworking. Shopped around for a building and decided on a metal building. Since I would be doing all the work myself. I settled on a building from American Steel Span due to the price and construction method. Big mistake. I get the building in and find out I need special shaped rebar pieces and Special grade rebar. I talked to the manufacturer and they say well you can avoid that and just buy so and so for an additional few thousand dollars. I opted for ingenuity and shape the bars myself.

Then I decide it's time to insulate and what do you know. For an additional thousand dollars I can get the special pins to attach insulation. I thought it would only be a hundred bucks or so. So after months of research I finally found something that is not as good but will work. Then I realize I cannot attach nothing to walls like shelving or the ceiling so all shelving has to be built free standing. Which adds up. So all in all I should have stuck with a stick built shop where everything you buy is based on that type of construction. Lesson Learned.

Now I get to the heating side of things. After speaking with my insurance company they say it would be better for an exterior type stove do too flammable finishes and wood dust. I spent hours on building an extremely safe outdoor wood burning stove only to be told they would rather it inside because what if the door blows open and I don't know it. So I move it inside. They then say well it's not UL approved so they can't allow it. So I trade with a buddy of mine for a smaller "UL approved" stove. They then say well I can't have any flammables inside the building and that they changed their mind and won't allow a wood burning stove at all in a building.

Now I am shopping for new insurance and the best I can come up with is $500 more per year. The Ins. I have is a good company. They were very pleasant to work with during our tornado damage. So the extra cost doesn't necessarily mean I will get a better ins. comp. to deal with. Now I am debating on just going natural gas heating since my purpose of a wood stove was to save money on heating bills. But why go through the extra labor to cut firewood when I won't be saving really any money?

So now what? Do I go natural gas or just continue on the path of wood? What are your thoughts? What do you use?

Also, do any of you cool your shop, or just stay out of it when it gets hot? Right now outside temp is around 115 and inside the shop is around 95 to 100.

Thanks for reading my rant. Just very frustrated. I want to really start working wood, not a big empty shop to look at all day because I can't use it.


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## SCOTSMAN (Aug 1, 2008)

I just bought a new metal shed 20 foot by ten foot but I just want it for storing wood so no probs with insulation heating etc but guess what yesteday I broke my foot so cant get it built yet. Alistair


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## knotheadswoodshed (Jun 14, 2012)

It would seem that unless you have an abundance of free, cut wood, it would make more sense to go with Natural gas and avoid all the hassles you have been experiencing


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## dbhost (Jul 20, 2009)

For starters, get their recommendations down on paper before you plop down a single penny, obviously too late to prevent what you have been through, but not too late for future reference.

I am no expert on this, but I believe there are UL approved / listed wood fired boilers on the market that you can use to drive an in floor radiant heat system. No combustion takes place in the shop building itself, so no fire danger there, good solid constant heat top to bottom. But then again, it sounds like you already laid down the slab, so a little bit late for that one…

IF I were to start with a metal building, with no HVAC, the approach would depend on what is available, how big of a building you are talking about etc… But there are some key items to consider…

#1. First things first, make sure the building itself isn't dumping heat out through every single seam. Control your air flow through caulk, gaskets and any other means at your disposal.
#2. Radiant barriers, not just for keeping the hot sun out, but during the winter, good for keeping your warm air in. At least radiant wise.
#3. Think you have enough insulation? Double it and you might be getting close. 
#4. It won't help if it's not there yet, at least for a few years while they grow, but plant some shade trees to shade the south, and west sides of the building and roof. This will help reduce your heat gain during the summer months.
#5. If combustion in the shop, of any sort is a fire concern for your insurance company, and your safety sake, sealed electrical heat, or remote fired radiant systems are just about your only real choices. Talk with your insurance company in depth about what they recommend, and get it in writing!
#6. Yes I cool my shop. It's the only way I can work out there in the summer. I have an attached garage workshop, and use a simple portable unit air conditioner plumbed through 5" dryer vents in the wall. Been that way for years and the HOA hasn't made a peep about it yet. If you are under say about 500 square feet, a large window combo heat / air conditioning units. My portable unit was selected due to lack of windows and HOA restrictions, but I don't get the impression you are limited thusly…


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## ssnvet (Jan 10, 2012)

wow….. thanks for reminding me why I live in a rural area.

After sitting on the board for a condo assoc. years ago…. I'll never have anything to do with condos or HOAs again. Having neigbors is way over rated :^)

Put your money into good insulation, then slap some electric baseboards in there and call it done.


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## SCOTSMAN (Aug 1, 2008)

modern wood burning stoves are not what they used to be they are miraculous nowadays.Ask away you will be pleasently surprised with the new stuff for sale good luck and best wishes. Alistair


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## ssnvet (Jan 10, 2012)

Modern wood stoves are indeed awesome….but insurance companies hate them anyways….

if they let you go with the UL listed wood stove… be prepared to provide them with a certificate from the state licensed installer that installed it for you…

You were, of course, going to have it installed by a licensed installer, weren't you?

It is not going to end….


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## crank49 (Apr 7, 2010)

I can't imagine any reason why a wood fired boiler, outdoors, could ever be a problem with insurance on the shop. The only connection between the boiler and the shop is a set of water pipes and a thermostat. You need to get insurance from someone else. You can't fix stupid.

In my area I have found Farm Bureau of Tennessee to be extremely easy to deal with and very competetive. Perhaps there is a comparable provider in your area.


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## americanwoodworker (Nov 26, 2011)

Actually it wasn't a boiler I built. It was a forced air heater with an 8 inch heat exchanger that would run into the shop from the outside. Not to keen on building something with high pressures. My buddy that I traded with has a larger shop then I that is uninsulated. He had to open his doors the first time he used it because it got way to hot inside for him.

What really ticked me off was that they would not allow a home built stove with 1/2inch thick walls. But they had no problem with a "UL" approved stove made from 12 gauge steel (7/64)!

Just don't know what to do.


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## dhazelton (Feb 11, 2012)

I have a Miracle steel building. When I put it up I thought 'oh, I'll insulate later.' Now that it's full of crap and shelving I can't stand being out there if it's over 90. It has a 14 ft ceiling so adding insulation when I was building it would have been far easier as I could have rented a rolling scaffold. Now I just kick myself.


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## americanwoodworker (Nov 26, 2011)

I did that same thing! I had to move all my crap to the middle and insulate perimeter walls, then move it all out to the edge and insulate the middle. That sucked but I got it done. To think, I was gona wait till later to pour the floor.


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## kizerpea (Dec 2, 2011)

Yes u need a certified state licensed installer to do this for you…...regulations…....naoh had a licensed boat builder build his ARK …he just took the credit for the job…next u will need a engineer to approve your method for using a hammer an nail..yep thats right…with out a certificate from the new yankee thay will canel your heath ins. because u mite hit a finger an need a few stiches i have ins on my shop an the agent has never seen it..took some pic of the outside an e-mailed to him an that was it…an i have a wood stove too..an i installed it… thanks for leting me vent ….i feel better now


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## Grandpa (Jan 28, 2011)

I don't know where you live but would an electric heat pump meet your needs? All you would need to do is keep the filter clean and set the thermostat where you are comfortable.


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## americanwoodworker (Nov 26, 2011)

From what I have researched, a heat pump won't work for me. I do not know much about them but from what I can tell the temps here in Kansas wont be very compatible. In the winter our temp will get below freezing quite often, but it's the wind that worries me. Many times we get 5 to 10 below wind chill. Makes your breath freeze instantly on your whiskers.

But, like I said, I am not real educated on heat pumps.


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## longgone (May 5, 2009)

I would have spray foam insulation put in your shop. Most energy efficient move you could possibly make.
My shop (24×40) is not metal but I have spray foam and when it is 95-100 degrees outside my shop is very comfortable inside. Never need heat. I have a window A/C unit that has a heat coild also and have never turned it on for the heat. Once in a very rare occasion I will turn the A/C on for a short period.


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

My shop is 12×30 metal building. I put radiant foil insulation on the ceiling and 1/2 foil faced foam in between the studs. Have a 12000btu a/c in one end and a 5600btu window unit in the other. Keeps it around 78 inside even when it 95 outside. Heating isn't a problem since I live in Florida. In Ohio I used a propane forced air furnace out of a double wide house. Worked fine.


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## Grandpa (Jan 28, 2011)

I have a friend that uses a heat pump in the Pittsburg, PA area and he says it works great. That could be when compared to his older worn out furnace but he claims it is the best thing he has ever done for himself. Natural gas is the cheapest thing you can do. I recently attended an auction where natural gas heaters for a mfg plant sold for $50 (328,000 BTU). That was cheap enough. Those hung from the ceiling in this huge mobile home mfg place. Just look around and make sure it will work before you pay your money.


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## crank49 (Apr 7, 2010)

For what it's worth, those commercial outdoor wood fired "boilers" DO NOT run with high pressure.
They have an open top expansion tank and they recirculate hot water with a pump between the water jacket and a coil in the ductwork in the house (or shop). When the water gets hot it expands freely into the tank; no pressure except gravity involved.
If anything ever malfunctioned the worst that could happen is the water would all be boiled out of the system.
Same as if you put a pot of water on the stove and left it on till it boiled dry. The furnace would get hot like the wood stove it is, but there would be no heat transfer medium to carry the heat into the shop, so the shop would be cold.


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## timbit2006 (Jan 6, 2012)

I can't help you on anything else but the cooling part.

I've never used my garage as a shop before now and I remember it always being cool in there for some reason even when it was 40degrees outside. It might be something with the attic trapping the heat. I had to go up there for some reason and I've been to saunas that were colder.

If it ever gets too hot, I have a spare wall mounted Air Conditioner which I can easily install.


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## DanLyke (Feb 8, 2007)

My shop has 6" thick staggered stud walls with fiberglass insulation, 4" of foil faced foam in the ceiling with 6" of soil + plants on top of that. Because I was doing the insulation anyway for sound control, the city made me make the shop California Title 24 compliant, and you can't be compliant unless you specify the climate control devices, which means I've got an LG Art Cool 9000BTU heat pump for my shop.

But, I'm in a climate where a heat pump makes sense (and I've only turned it on twice, mostly just to test it).

And, yes, my sister has a horse farm in Ohio, put in a steel building for an indoor riding arena, and there were a ton of hidden costs that she didn't anticipate, and the final building ended up costing about 3 times what the company that sold them the building said it was going to cost.


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## americanwoodworker (Nov 26, 2011)

What makes me mad about all of this is that I was honest and it backfired. Everyone told me not to say anything to my ins. company about having a wood stove. The only time they have seen the building was by a pic that I emailed to them. But I said that would be dishonest and I called them to let them know. Look where it got me.

After speaking with another Ins. agent she told me I should have never said anything until I installed it because it would be easier to get approval. What the heck? Now to get anywhere I must be dishonest to get my way? I just can't do it, it's not in my character.

Oh well, I am still searching for options. Looking into maybe a Mr.Heater option. If I can get that approved.


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