# Poly choice and why



## tri4funnow (Dec 2, 2013)

So I'm new to wood working and tackled a big second project…dinning room table. Things came out pretty good and got it in the house the day before thanksgiving…however I haven't finished it yet. It was a bit of an undertaking for a newbie woodworker. I'm going to make some benches to go with it next.

Help area #1
I am pretty sure I want to use poly but I don't know which one or the recommended methods of application and sanding. I would like to know your recipe and why you do it that way. The table will be our daily use table. We hope to have a kid or two soon.

Help area #2
In a few areas I didn't do the best job of closing the small gaps between the woods when I glued them together. I'm looking for recommendations on how to fill in these small gaps ( at the greatest 1mm) and why you prefer your method.

Woods: 8/4 - hard maple, bubinga, Purple Heart, jatoba, leopard wood, African mahogany, American walnut, iroko, zebra wood, padauk, wenge

~500 biscuits (these guys are a life saver)

Sanded to 1000 grit

Total weight ~300kg
My wife's desire for this table came from Ariele Lasko's designs http://brooklyntowest.blogspot.com


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## ClintSearl (Dec 8, 2011)

Fill the gaps with epoxy. Finish with waterborne poly floor finish - Bona Mega.


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## reedwood (Jan 27, 2011)

Welcome to LJ.

I am not the best at finishing but I'm getting better. I read a post the other day about Waterlox brand OB varnish.
I've used OB Minwax varnish in the past but, I swear the formula has changed and now I hate it.

I prefer the oil base because I like the amber color and thickness of the finish compared to water base.

It seems like the best way to finish your lovely work will be to spray it with a good HVLP sprayer. If you brush it on, it's gonna show brush marks and different shades of sheen. You won't be happy with it.

As far as the cracks go, I don't know what to recommend without seeing it. There is a good chance more will open up with this crazy pattern. You could fill it with matching wood epoxy putty but you'd have to blue tape it over lighter colors or it will show. Another idea is to fill with color sticks between coats of varnish.

Cool table! .... Be sure to keep us up to date with a picture of it finished.


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

Man, for a second project you really nailed it! Well done! I dislike anything "poly" except floors. The polyurethane resin's greatest attribute is scratch resistance, making it ideal for floors. But to my eyes it has a plastic appearance on wood, and the urethanes do cause some adhesion problems. I would use a good non-poly varnish. Someone else mentioned Waterlox, and it would be an excellent choice. So would Sherwin Williams Fast Dry Oil Varnish, or if you can find it Pratt and Lambert #38 varnish. You mentioned being a "new" to woodworking; and I would guess you're also new to this kind of finishing, so try your skills on some scrap before you tackle the table.


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## woodkandy (Apr 4, 2013)

I have to agree that you Totally nailed this! Super job. Prepare yourself for tons of compliments from house guests.


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## tri4funnow (Dec 2, 2013)

What are the benefits of oil based finishes over poly?

Here are images of the gaps I need to fill:


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## tri4funnow (Dec 2, 2013)

I can get the Pratt and Lambert #38 in town. Is it clear?


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## Bobsboxes (Feb 8, 2011)

Great project, I would fill gaps with epoxy. If you are finishing this inside the house, use water based poly. It tends to be thin so use she several coats. It dries quick and less toxic. Good luck. I did a set of kitchen cupboards several years ago with water base and they still look super. Any damage, just sand lightly and recoat.


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## tri4funnow (Dec 2, 2013)

I'll be finishing it in a garage. May try to make a "clean area" to help limit dust


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## wisardd1 (May 13, 2010)

I would use colored wax finishing pencils after finishing.. I wouldn't tinker too much with it. If you use epoxy have some acetone on hand for clean up. If it were mine and considering you sanded to 1000, I would carefully fill with poly then use deft natural as the finish coat.


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## wisardd1 (May 13, 2010)

You might try wood slivers first


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## tri4funnow (Dec 2, 2013)

Ok, based on some feedback here and via some other wood workers, I may have shifted my thoughts…

Many have suggested making a wood filler via sawdust and diluted wood glue until I get a thick wood heavy past. This allows for color/wood matching to fill the small gaps.

On finishing, several people suggest a single coat of shellac to fix the grain/fibers followed by waterlox, Pratt and Lambert #38, or similar and then rubbing out the final.

Thoughts? Opinions?

Also, is the smooth (1000 grit) surface a problem for this type of finish…several people have told me I have overdone it…is that just because it was a lot of work or have a jacked it up and need to go back over it with 320 grit to create some surface structure?

Thank you. This community has been extremely helpful.

James


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## ClintSearl (Dec 8, 2011)

LJs is replete with advice that ranges from experienced knowledge to the incomprehensibly absurd, as this discussion proves, so do what ever makes you happy.


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## Mahdeew (Jul 24, 2013)

Nothing wrong with the 1000 grit sanding; it should make your poly application faster and that is important because you want continuous application from end to end with overlaps. Poly can be very tricky if you want a nice finish on that table. Allow a few days, or better yet few weeks to sand in between coats. If there are visible brush marks, last coat can be sanded from 400 to 2000 depending on how much gloss you want on it. Use water with a few drops of dish soap in it while wet sanding the last coat. Good luck and a beautiful job on the table.


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## wisardd1 (May 13, 2010)

I suggest mixing your filler with wharever finish you are going to use. Makes a perfect blend


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## renners (Apr 9, 2010)

Wood slivers for filler, same species, same grain orientation. Glue and sawdust as a filler goes dark. I don't think any finish would stick to polished wood, this is what you'd get sanding down to p1000. p180/220 is sufficient. Be aware that if you rub out the finish on that table (i.e. to achieve a super high gloss finish), any bumps between joints are going to scream out at you. Also, if someone is wrapping Christmas presents and hanging the roll of tape off the table, it will pull the poly off.

If it was my job, and I was about to finish it, I would sand to p180, tack cloth the dust with ms, apply oil based matt poly by brush straight out of the can, go over it with foam roller to reduce brush marks. Light sand to p220 to de-nib when dry, tack cloth, apply another coat, repeat. Leave third coat to dry give a light sand with p600 wet or dry paper and another quick rub with 0000 wire wool to give a satin sheen. Don't bother with wax.

Clint, I admire your honesty.


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## RandyTsuch (Nov 1, 2013)

Padauk is supposed to be prone to bleeding color, so I would worry about that whatever you do. Especially the light colored wood next to it. Sealing with shellac might help.

BTW, very impressive table, wish I could build something like that.


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## reedwood (Jan 27, 2011)

I just read Clint Searl's blog he wrote about finishes and learned a few things like, maybe I don't know what I'm talking about when it comes to finishing a table like this.

But from my experience I haven't found any cabinet shops painting clear finishes with a brush or a roller. And Minwax did change their formula due to new EPA rules. That's why I mentioned it. sorry.


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## renners (Apr 9, 2010)

This guy isn't in a cabinet shop though is he? Otherwise it would it would be sprayed with lacquer.
As for Clint, perhaps not the most diplomatic reply, but honest nonetheless. Better than holding back.

^Post above was edited


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## lumberjoe (Mar 30, 2012)

the 1000 grit sanding is a problem. I'd re-sand at 220 or 320. Also is there a substrate under this? Those gaps are are pretty large. I'd be concerned about structural rigidity. In addition - you have a lot of species going in a lot of different directions. All of these species have different tangential expansion rates and will be fighting each other. I would have resawed thin veneer (~1/8th inch) and applied to to engineered material.

All that aside and ignoring dimensional stability, if you don't want to re-sand or fill gaps, finish it with an epoxy pour.


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## tri4funnow (Dec 2, 2013)

I sought out the advice of this community to tap into the experience of the members. I didn't think about the finishing process until I finished construction. I have just finished reading Finishing, Methods of Work, by Jim Richey, Hand-Applied Finished by Jeff Jewitt, and I have half way through Bob Flexner's Understanding Wood Finishing. Each of the books has their methods and opinions and that is great. The nice thing about a forum like LJ is you get to hear how others applied the various concepts. With that said, the greatest value to a newbie like myself is answering the "why" question. Why do you think the approach you suggest is the best option.

Clint Searl - I want to not screw up my table. I sought the advice of the community here because I believe most like to see others succeed. I would love to hear how you would approach the finishing and most importantly why. It's clear you don't like some of the advice of others, I'd like to know why you agree or don't agree with the suggestions. This is the experience I am here for…no sense in me making mistakes many others have already made and learned from in the past.

RandyTsuch - I've had a couple of people express worry to me about the Padauk bleeding. This is where the first coat in shellac came in. Because the alcohol evaporates off quickly, it was suggested that it might help prevent bleeding. I'd love to hear from anyone who has been successful or not successful with this approach.

Reedwood & Renners - I am open to spraying, but I have heard there is a pretty rough learning curve. I up for it, but I want to minimize the risk as there is a significant investment in time and money in the table. It would be on borrowed equipment.

The challenge I see is with the changing grain directions. If it was all in the same direction, I don't think this would be as difficult. I would like to avoid a "plastic" look if possible, but I get that it is a balance between protection and visual bliss.


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## tri4funnow (Dec 2, 2013)

lumberjoe - I don't mind sanding…clearly, I took it to 1000  Are you worried about mechanical adhesion? Why epoxy? hardness? durability? ease of application? Would you be worried about cracking with the expansion issues we know I am going to have?


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## lumberjoe (Mar 30, 2012)

Epoxy will fill all of your gaps, and is clear - so no chance of having discolored fillers/glue lines.

Wood expands most dramatically tangentially (across the growth rings). This is why we go through the effort of making proper breadboard ends on laminated table tops instead of simply gluing a board on the end. The grain is running in a lot of different directions here, and is boxed in on all sides. It has nowhere to naturally expand. Couple that with the fact that each species has differing rates of volumetric expansion, and there is a good potential for cracking.


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## wisardd1 (May 13, 2010)

Hal Taylor sands to both 600 and 800 on his rocking chairs then applies deft natural clear with no problem. An acetone wipe is good for any oily woods as it causes the oils to recide. The lower grits apply to stain, not finish, especially absorbing type finishes.


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## LakeLover (Feb 2, 2013)

Tri4
About sanding to 1000. If the paper is new and sharp, that's ok. But when sandpaper looses it sharpness it will burnish the wood. Making any finish hard to penetrate.

I like poly because I can control it. I use Minwax Fast dry satin because that is all I can get in the sticks here.

First coat 50/50 with solvent. Wipe it on with a clean rag. Go over the surface a couple times and make sure you don't have thick areas. Walk away and let it dry. ( Throw your rag out side in a metal can)

Apply a second coat of 50/50. Walk away and let it dry. ( Throw your rag out side in a metal can)

Lightly sand or steel wool the surface to get rid of nibs. Tack cloth or blow the dust off. Wipe on a full strength coat as thin and even as possible. Use a racking light to make sure the surface is covered evenly. Walk away and let it dry. ( Throw your rag out side in a metal can).

Very light steel wool again and clean. Here is were I depart tradition. Satin poly has deadeners in it. these have sunk to the bottom of the can if you have not mixed it. Pour what you think you will need to finish into a container and take a clean stick and scoop some of the deadner from the bottom of the can.

Mix this well even add a bit of solvent. By now the finish should absorb very evenly. So wipe on the mix as this and even as possible. Walk away and let it dry. ( Throw your rag out side in a metal can)

Now you should have a nice non plastic looking finish. Minimal dust nibs and no need to rub out the sheen.

Of course some will disagree. But it works for me. Oh don't forget to coat the underside to slow moisture from warping your wood work.

Disclaimer if you put on enough coats of anything on it will build a plastic looking surface. Just about anything with out deadners will have a glossy surface. Except milk paint.


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## hydro (Aug 9, 2013)

Again, Renners pretty much nailed the procedure! I would do it a little different, though, considering your "everyday use" comment in the OP.

1. Fill the cracks with clear epoxy. The 5 minute stuff will work well. Let it cure overnight then scrape it flush with a sharp card scraper. Re-sand the entire top to 180 to give it some "tooth" for the finish.

2. Using any good quality GLOSS polyurethane, spray a thinned coat and let it cure for a couple of days. The gloss poly is clear and will be used as build up coats. Save the satin or matte stuff for the final coat only as it contains a clay "flattener" that will cloud the finish. Lightly sand the finish by hand using a compliant block and white stearated paper. (A piece of hard packing foam works great for the block). This will remove the dust nubs. Use a fresh tack cloth and wipe all of the dust off of the surface.

3. Spray 1 or 2 more build up coats, using the poly straight from the can. Do not thin it any more than necessary to spray. Repeat the sanding process between coats.

4. Spray the last coat of satin, gloss, or matte, whatever sheen you desire. On this coat be sure to tack the surface very carefully to remove all dust. If you plan on hand rubbing the finish, use ONLY the gloss finish as you will be knocking it down during the rubbing process and do not want to rub through to a different finish below. I do not recommend trying to rub down a polyurethane finish as they can "layer" between coats and if you cut through that layer it will be an obvious flaw.

5. If you do not have a sprayer, you can do this with a brush, but the finish will inevitably have brush marks. Be sure to move fast, do not over brush finish that has started to tack, and warm the finish up before you apply it. The base to an old coffee maker works well as a finish warming plate. Hot varnish flows out muck better, reducing brush marks, and is less likely to retain air bubbles.

My kitchen table was finished with this process, using hardware store poly, over 20 years ago and is still in beautiful condition. No water marks and only some light patina from use. Whatever you do, do not try a tung oil or penetrating oil finish as they have no resistance to water, stay away from shellac as well as it is ruined by alcohol, and Deft is susceptible to oils and solvents so don't use that either.


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