# Breathing Protection



## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

How has Covid-19 changed the way you view breathing protection in the shop, or in the rest of the non-woodworking part of our society? This is a completely open topic, nobody's contribution will be blocked out. I personally have a set of nicely made masks, courtesy of my wife. She has all these sewing machines and cares about all of us guys. (Dad and three sons, though the eldest is off somewhere with the Air Force).


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

About the only time I wear a mask in the shop is to spray lacquer. The dust collection does the rest.


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## therealSteveN (Oct 29, 2016)

In the shop prior to Covid I used a full face respirator for protection of both my airway, and my eyes. Over them I wore a pair of 3M Pro grade ear muffs.



















I've had more eye problems in the woodshop than airway stuff, so eye enclosure is important to me all the time in the shop. The airway stuff I just go full face when I'm doing really dusty work, usually sanding, or MDF anything. If you haven't. wearing a full face respirator isn't endearing at all, kinda huge PIA level stuff.

When Covid first hit, I went everywhere with my half face 3M respirator. I'd had it a long time, and it was still in great shape. I was as scared as anyone else, and being a Diabetic, with both heart and respiratory history decided early on I didn't want any part of it. So I went wayyyyy past an N95, or cloth mask.










I really got to liking how it felt, as compared to the full face, but I need ears, and eyes. I like eyes beyond safety glasses as in the past I have been wearing safety glasses with side shields, and still got foreign bodies in one eye or the other, and ended up with corneal abrasion. If you haven't had it a corneal abrasion sux, and I've had 4, that theoretically the safety glasses should have stopped, but did not.

This year for my birthday, my lovely Wife gifted me with a pair of Eye Muffs G6. They are a combo eye guard big enough to easily fit over regular glasses, and they have attached ear muffs of the overhead with strap variety.










So now I am wearing my 1/2 face respirator, and the Eye Muffs for total cover. All are light, wearable for long periods without making me cra cray, and I can still wear my glasses. I had tried the really nice goggles from Uvex, but none of them allowed me to wear my glasses with them, at least not easily. Plus the goggles, and my ear guards of choice caused a chafe like thing around my ears, the Eye Muffs don't.

So yeah Covid did at least that one good thing for me, because I don't think I would have changed without wearing my 1/2 mask to get groceries and stuff.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

That explains a lot.


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## WoodenDreams (Aug 23, 2018)

In South Dakota, our Governor is giving us the freedom of choice. I only wear a mask in my shop when creating dust. I don't wear a mask when up and about, even in large group events. Very few of the people I know wear a mask. To answer the question, nothing has changed. No fear mongering here.


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

I am a bad boy and never wear a respirator in the shop. I am mostly hand tool now and above and below suction on the table saw is an improvement too. Makes me think back to when I would use an airless sprayer with oil base paint. at the end of the day I would need to take a thinner rag and shove it up my nose to get all the dried paint out of my nostrils. Yeah that can't be good.

Mask and covid, I don't think they are that effective but wear one when requested or feel that a customer is more comfortable seeing me wear it. Had the first vaccine shot 9 days ago and two weeks after the second I will kiss my mask goodbye.


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## wildwoodbybrianjohns (Aug 22, 2019)

I dont go anywhere without my inflatable personal environment shield. I even sleep in it. And whats really great is that no one even looks at me like I am totally retarded. In fact, no one even talks to me anymore; not sure why….


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## tvrgeek (Nov 19, 2013)

I always wear a half mask for spray painting. 
Always SHOULD grab a formed N95 when I am grinding, but sometimes forget. 
I try to remember one when welding.
I try to remember one when cutting MDF.
I try to remember one when sanding. 
I used to buy 3M half masks, but the newest ones don't fit as well. Got an Eclipse and it is much more comfortable. I have always done so and COVID has not changed the in-shop habits. 
As I get into lathe work, I may invest in a powered full face mask.
I have taken to wearing a mask when mowing the yard. It makes a big difference in my allergies.

I run a dust collector with canister filters, ambient air cleaner MERV 13 and the HVAC has MERV 13 filters. They all help, but most power tools still produce the fines that are dangerous, so a mask is still needed. I finally got enough adapters for my held held tools. But their collection is marginal too.

What COVID did was I ran out of vented N95 formed masks and could not get any until recently. That the were restricted for medical use was as stupid as it gets as vented masks are absolutely useless for COVID protection of others. I now have a good stock.

As they became available, I switched from procedure masks to cone KN95 to preformed N95 for outside the house. I only had to use a bandana about a week as my band saw had a 10 pack of procedure masks tossed in. That held us over until we could buy some. The material in all filters is fine, it is the fit that makes a big difference.

WoodenDreams, stay out of NC. Learn to respect others. Don't wear a mask in you shop if you wish, but outside it is not about YOU, it is about US. ControlFreak, masks are about an 80% effective protection, for both you and OTHERS. Mask up and don't be a sociopath! 6 more months if people have any respect for others. *This is not about politics or freedom, it is about respect for others. *

Am I touchy? Yea. I am old. My wife is a poster child for those who DIE if they catch it.


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

I'm not doing anything different in the shop due to Covid, just following the precautions I've always followed. I do have a rpoblem with safety clsses and earmuffs, I need to get one of those "Eye muffs" that SteveN pic'd.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

Agreed. Masks are to protect others as well as yourself. I won't be visiting SD anytime soon. Just had a 58 year old friend die from this disaster. He was masked at work but not outside the plant gate. If masks were not turned political, many less people would have died. I get the first shot today, and will be wearing a mask after second shot to prevent carrying virus to others even if I am protected.


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## tvrgeek (Nov 19, 2013)

Can't tell you how many times I have scraped solder off my glasses and how many lenses I have trashed with bits of grinder dust. Seems face shields last about a day when I am over on the "car" side of my shop. Bought a 10 pack of the new disposable face shields for less than one of the old style. I'll use them more often.

Ear muffs, hang on three spots in the shop and one in the garage.

First shot just over a week ago! I hope if folks co-operate, by fall we can see our friends and family again.


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## Rich1955 (Jan 26, 2020)

After being in the automotive body repair industry for 43 years, I am no stranger to wearing masks. In my workshop I wear a P-100 HEPA respirator for dust, we also used these for welding. As for finishing I have a air supplied respirator, which we used for automotive finishing, There are a lot of good respirator's on the market, but do your research, respirator's do not always filter out the same thing. you may need a different one for dust and one for finishing.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

I wear a mask when I go to the store or wherever we are supposed to. As for shop, I wear a cartridge respirator when fiberglassing. I mostly use hand tools so I don't make much dust except for when I roll my TS outside on the driveway.


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## Budster (Jul 17, 2016)

I guess I am a big pussy . My wife says I had to get the shot and I have to wear a mask because I have C.O.P D.


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## sras (Oct 31, 2009)

No change in the shop, but I'm likely to wear masks from time to time even if the vaccine is effective. This year's flu season was almost nonexistent and it should help with my allergies. I'd rather wear a mask than fill my nostrils with spray 2-3 times a day.

I've known people with medical conditions (mostly from cancer treatments) that always wore a mask in years past and no one thought of it.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

Hasn't really changed my mask wearing in the shop.

The nearly nonexistent flu season shows that masks work and help to prevent people from spreading disease to others. Wearing a mask is more about not spreading than about not getting the disease. Those that don't wear them are saying: I don't care about others or that I am ignorant about why we were all asked to wear masks.


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## OSU55 (Dec 14, 2012)

No change in the shop or out and about. Wear a mask if a business requires it. No fear mongering in rural MO tho cant say the same for commie run cities.


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## splintergroup (Jan 20, 2015)

Brian, I didn't realize you were so hot 8^)

I have the 3M half mask that I wear when spraying but as with Rich, my dust collection (hopefully) takes care of the rest.

When I need to remove dust from sanding a finish, I'll take it outside and use compressed air (It always seems windy here and that carries the dust away)

People forget that the best wood puttys/fillers are a mix using the dust from the sanding process. A good sanding session with the DC turned off creates an excellent filler mix of wood dust in a booger binder 8^)


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## Wood_Scraps (Jan 31, 2021)

> In South Dakota, our Governor is giving us the freedom of choice. I only wear a mask in my shop when creating dust. I don t wear a mask when up and about, even in large group events. Very few of the people I know wear a mask. To answer the question, nothing has changed. No fear mongering here.
> 
> - WoodenDreams


We can be friends. My concerns about Covid are equal to my concerns over getting struck by lightning. Our Ohio Governor has gone full blown tyrant. Fortunately his opinion and edicts mean nothing to me.

In the shop, for dust and/or fumes, I wear a 3m quick-latch half face respirator.


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## Wood_Scraps (Jan 31, 2021)

> Can t tell you how many times I have scraped solder off my glasses and how many lenses I have trashed with bits of grinder dust. Seems face shields last about a day when I am over on the "car" side of my shop. Bought a 10 pack of the new disposable face shields for less than one of the old style. I ll use them more often.
> 
> Ear muffs, hang on three spots in the shop and one in the garage.
> 
> ...


Plot twist. I've been seeing my friends and family the whole time. No one has died. I'll be damned if I give up two years of seeing family.


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## gtrgeo (Mar 22, 2017)

therealSteveN - Reading your post reminded me of some safety glasses we use on the job site. We were having issues with people getting particles in there eyes during certain activities. Goggles did not work well as the workers hated wearing them and therefore they were not always in use. One of the workers suggested these and we found that people did not mind wearing them and therefore reduced issues we were having. There are other companies that make similar foam gasketed safety glasses as well. They work well and are much more comfortable than normal goggles. They are also available with reading lens if you need.

George


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## therealSteveN (Oct 29, 2016)

> I m not doing anything different in the shop due to Covid, just following the precautions I ve always followed. I do have a rpoblem with safety clsses and earmuffs, I need to get one of those "Eye muffs" that SteveN pic d.
> 
> - Fred Hargis


If you end up down this way, stop in, see what ya think. I really like them, comfort, and protection. Plus no fogging up, at least on me.


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## therealSteveN (Oct 29, 2016)

> therealSteveN - Reading your post reminded me of some safety glasses we use on the job site. We were having issues with people getting particles in there eyes during certain activities. Goggles did not work well as the workers hated wearing them and therefore they were not always in use. One of the workers suggested these and we found that people did not mind wearing them and therefore reduced issues we were having. There are other companies that make similar foam gasketed safety glasses as well. They work well and are much more comfortable than normal goggles. They are also available with reading lens if you need.
> 
> George
> 
> - gtrgeo


My last job I was the Occupational Health Nurse at a Chemical plant. I used to order in eyewear for the guys, and we had some of those laying around. My issue is I wear glasses. Don't really need them for distance, but from a foot to about 4 feet away I'm sorta blind without them, so I have to wear my glasses. More so in the shop.


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## therealSteveN (Oct 29, 2016)

> I dont go anywhere without my inflatable personal environment shield. I even sleep in it. And whats really great is that no one even looks at me like I am totally retarded. In fact, no one even talks to me anymore; not sure why….
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Brian got legs, damn I didn't just type that did I? Like yer bubble. Can you get an invisible model???


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## WoodenDreams (Aug 23, 2018)

I feel it should be my own decision if I don't wear a mask. It's protecting my liberty, Not from a Governor that wants to shut everything down. As stated, pertaining to masks since all this covid crap started, nothing has changed in shop or elsewhere. I have always vacuumed my work surfaces in the shop at end of the day. Sometimes I'll vacuum the floor in the shop several times a day. The shop is where I focus on the dust I breath in. I do have three boxes of N95 masks for the shop. And I do have a someone helping me in the shop a couple times a week. It's his decision if he wants to wear a mask or not.

With Dark_Lighting starting this forum topic, it's interesting on the comments others have posted. It's also nice to hear what others are using in their shop for masks. Haven't found a good mask yet for fumes from Oil based products, or spray painting. Been trying to stick with water base and odorless finishes.

For breath protection, a breath mint wouldn't hurt.


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## JAAune (Jan 22, 2012)

The run on masks actually resulted in us having less protection than we did pre-COVID. I've always kept a supply of good, valved N95 masks in the shop for employees to grab when they needed extra dust protection. But we were almost out when they became unavailable and only had a 10 pack of off-brand masks that I bought at a Menards sale and those had to last for months. At some point a mask becomes a source of dust instead of protection and gets tossed so there's no way those were going to last long enough if we used them at the same rate we normally did.

Cloth masks don't cut it for dust protection. Fine dust goes straight through or around the gaps. Even with a fresh 3M N95 mask, I can still smell sawdust. The fit isn't perfect.

We had to shift focus to improving dust collection and bringing in more fresh air from outside.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

well i blow my nose every so often-lol. yeah i know im bad about wearing dust protection and may die from that some day but the dust doesn't bother me.ive got a jet dc with 4"ducts to every machine in my shop plus a jet over head fine dust collector,what those dont pick up i dont worry about.dont folow me because im lost jocks-lol.do what you feel is right for you,period.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

I have three dust collectors, two vacs and a sanding station [with a top, back and sides in my little shop], so masks are seldom needed, unless spraying or running the router.

I buy N-95's by the box, so I had a collection even when "they" thought I should donate them [because only healthcare workers could be infected?].

In addition, I have a bin, which, in addition to a box of N95's, has five half face respirators and a full face mask to insure I'm covered when running the HVLP, the airless or a router.

In short, NOTHING changed.


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

I am looking for a frame for safety glasses. I need prescription lenses and bifocal too. I am wanting my magnifiers on the top and the bottom. I hate not being able to look under a table saw and see anything. Even though I always wear glasses they aren't "safety" I would hate to find out the hard way that it is not enough.


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## Sawdust2012 (Sep 17, 2013)

No change in my thoughts about protection in the shop. That danger is real. COVID has, however, changed my thoughts on need for protection from a "nanny state" government. Look at the size of the virus in microns, then look at the filtering capacity of masks. I'd love to understand how this works. It's like trying to stay dry with a chicken wire umbrella. I'm far more concerned about our dolt of a governor in Raleigh who thinks he gets to decide when and how we can earn a living or go to church. The 1st amendment is pretty clear about my right to free association. I wear the submission mask on private property when the owner asks me to. Beyond that, if I'm that worried about my 99.9% chance of surviving, I should probably stay home.


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

I think it is a little quick to presume that masks are 100% effective using a total lack of flu as the example. To do so would mean we have wasted our lives distancing, shutting down and increased hand washing etc. I am looking forward to real science on he effectiveness of all of these things. I feel the "you must wear a mask" after having had covid or the vaccine only because "you may be able to pass it and we just don't know". I say it sounds more like wear a mask because others can't tell if you're good or not without saying "your papers please" All I can say is without proving the converse argument of this that "You can carry and pass covid to others and the mask is close to 100% effective" I am done with masks 14 days after my next shot. What is the point of heard immunity if we keep moving the goal posts IMO.


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## Wood_Scraps (Jan 31, 2021)

> I am looking for a frame for safety glasses. I need prescription lenses and bifocal too. I am wanting my magnifiers on the top and the bottom. I hate not being able to look under a table saw and see anything. Even though I always wear glasses they aren t "safety" I would hate to find out the hard way that it is not enough.
> 
> - controlfreak


I also wear prescription glasses. Have found the dewalt concealer goggles work fairly well over glasses. Good coverage. Pretty comfortable. Easy to take on and off.

Harbor Freight also sells a version that slips right over prescription spectacles. They're inexpensive and effective. I keep a bunch lying around near my tools so that I have no excuse not to wear something if the Dewalt goggles aren't nearby.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Add in the martial law (ref., RCW 38.08.030) garbage, which equates to suspending both the state and federal constitutions, but for which no authority can be found [for the way they use it].

That aside, I started getting into furnace/HVAC filters. Not for the C-19 crap, but because I'd like cleaning air in the home (did I mention I hate dusting?). That interest was bolstered by all the topics we have about dust collection in our shops, and the cost of equipment to get to clean air.

On all that, I had a good jumping off point - our HVAC system uses five inch filters. They ran $50.00 each from the furnace company. When I went on line, I learned terms like MERV ratings. From the posts of fellow Lumberjocks, I started focusing more on velocity, CFM, micron size of things filtered and so on.

From all that, I knew we were listing to people whose expertise on masks were less than ours. For example:


NOT ONE of them could tell us how many of the saber toothed virus critters had to get into our system to infect us;


They said things that defied common sense (stupid things), like only health care professionals needed masks;


Many so called experts even told me a surgeons mask was superior to my puny N-95's I kept, by the box, to stay off sawdust, sheet rock dust and so on;


NOT ONE of the FAKEnews supported experts, including the ones with financial interests in the HIGHLY profitable (as Mr. Gates-of-Hell said, vaccines are the best investment he's made, with their 20:1 return), mention our bodies should be considered as being filters for bacterial, virus, mold and other toxin purposes.

None mentioned, let alone discussed, the fact our bodies use certain vitamins and minerals to clear our bodies of things mentioned.

Ironically, even as they ignore our bodies natural immune protections and the natural ways of building them, they talk of vaccines (which the jab, at this point, is not, by definition) to build that same immunity.

Too, they ignore all the medical types who prescribe vitamins and minerals to combat or avoid health problems. Things like zinc and other things that push it into our cells, prenatal vitamins given pregnant women, C [with flavnoids] to fight scury, D for rickets and so on. You know, all that quackery stuff sold in health food stores.

Anyway, I pointed out that filling a leaf blower with a cup of flower and pointing it at a Walmart bed sheet, from a six feet away might result in only a teaspoon getting through.

As you move closer or father, the amount of flower that gets through would change. Up close and the flower could bounce it's way past the threads.

Now, go to a higher count thread sheet and the same experiment would result in even less flower getting through. HOWEEVER, flower did get through, until you got down to a material able to block the passing of individual pieces of flower of a given size. So to it would go with viruses and such.

NOW, we can add to the mix velocity. For example, the MERV 11 filters I am running flow air more freely than do the MERV 8, filters I bought before them.

I, first, put a manometer on the HVAC, between the filter and the squirrel cage, to monitor the negative air pressure build up. This both lets me monitor the quality of a given filter over another [for airflow] and tells me when the filter is loading and needs changing.

A few months back, I was introduced to megahelic gauges, which are like manometers, but more like a vacuum gauge, so very easy to read.

Using the new gauge, which only measures up to 1 inch of water, a new MERV 11 filter starts out at .25 WITH THE FAN ON MEDIUM. If I switch it to low, it drops to .2. Once the filter loads to put the meter in the .3 range, I'm only a few weeks out to developing rumbling in the air ducts (time for a change).

This suggests the area around your mouth is a bit like a vac hose or dust collector hose, things a few feet out will remain undisturbed by the air movement, you the force of your inhaling and exhaling will stir up everything close, essentially, causing some of that flower that, before, was stopped when it hit fabric, to break lose and go airborne, unless the micron level of the sheet thread count is enough to stop it.

We could on and on, but, it appears, our masks need to protect against BS as much as anything else. Oddly, I, often, find wearing no mask works well for this, outside my shop.

NOTE:

(1) The "lobby tied experts and those with documented conflicts of interest working for the CDC are on the record saying they quit county flu deaths and cases. That IS NOT the same as reduced flu cases or deaths

(2) It is no coincidence that the number of cases of C-19 went up when tests numbers skyrocketed. Nor is it coincidence when the aforementioned experts discovered what the quacks had been saying from the get go - amplifying the tests produces false positives in MOST cases. No surprisingly, when, near the the time of the introduction of the experimental, unapproved "vaccine," the CDC recommended lower the amplifications during testing, the numbers dropped. No doubt, we can credit the "vaccine," including future shots, for the lower numbers. [end sarcasm font]


> [C]OVID has, however, changed my thoughts on need for protection from a "nanny state" government.
> 
> - Sawdust2012


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

Let's try and keep the politics out of this, thank you very much.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

Let's go with masks are 100% effective. That means the stubborn people that won't wear masks, or only cover their mouth because they breath through their feet are the spreaders. I just had another friend die from the fake virus. If it takes wearing a mask, so be it. Staying out of crowds, ok. I plan to be here to spend my pension, and people that don't believe in science are not getting in my way. First shot in, second in three weeks. And if I need a mask till July 4, it won't kill me. And if I can carry the virus and spread it after shots, I will have no problem wearing a mask. I try not to get political, that is for another site. But I can only read so many posts, then I have to respond. It is funny how we all care about wearing a mask in the shop to protect ourselves, but argue against wearing a mask elsewhere to protect others.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Sorry, took you seriously.

Many of us are of the opinion all the facts matter in reaching conclusions, and that means not just the ones the so called news types push as fact.

Too, there is that a few of us who worked law and know, for a fact, few things are what they are claimed to be. Our law books and public record makes clear the fact our agents and medical professionals are not always the end all experts they and others would have us think them to be.

That said, it's your basket ball court and ball, when we don't have it and run off with it  . You might want alter or add to your post to make more clear your expectations, of limitations, in responses.

Everyone who comes into my shop sees I don't have a mask on (unless I'm doing something that would require it. They see I don't put on on when they come in either. I make clear to them they can feel free to remove theirs too. Everyone of them did.

None of us are dead or sick. That, of course, includes me. I'm going to be 70 in days, am missing a large chunk of my heart, and am not skinny. Yes, I've felt crappy a few times over the last year, but I also looked to some of the things above, rather than rely wholly on 50 micron masks for protection.

All that aside, one of the things I neglected to promote more in my wordy post is, dust collection goes far beyond what we usually think it does. In our home or shop, we can, often, improve filtration without compromising our system [which does not just mean putting in a MERV 11 where, before, we had something less than a MERV 4 equivalent.

We can build our own system that is far superior to the commercial units sold for shops. A few of the Lumberjocks have posted about theirs. Those systems could even be ramped up to take out viruses and bacteria, such as by increasing filter area to allow finer filters.


"How has Covid-19 changed the way you view breathing protection in the shop, or in the rest of the non-woodworking part of our society? This is a completely open topic, nobody's contribution will be blocked out. I personally have a set of nicely made masks, courtesy of my wife. She has all these sewing machines and cares about all of us guys. (Dad and three sons, though the eldest is off somewhere with the Air Force)."


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

When people start raving about "fake news", *that *is where it turns political. YMMV.

The virus isn't a "fake". Again. people's mileage may vary.

And it isn't "my court and ball", either.


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## Wood_Scraps (Jan 31, 2021)

> When people start raving about "fake news", *that *is where it turns political. YMMV.
> 
> The virus isn t a "fake". Again. people s mileage may vary.
> 
> ...


Would it make you feel better if it was labeled deceptive news/data/etc?

You started a thread about a political topic and then have a problem when a differing conclusion is reached than your own. (shrug)

From the outset, the media and government representatives politicized the virus. Can't put that cat back in the bag.


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

> When people start raving about "fake news", *that *is where it turns political. YMMV.
> 
> The virus isn t a "fake". Again. people s mileage may vary.
> 
> ...


I started a thread about Covid and breathing protection, not politics. That was not my intent, but what people read into it. Blame your ex-president for the politicization of what should have simply been a problem handled by the medical professionals.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> I started a thread about Covid and breathing protection, not politics. That was not my intent, but what people read into it. *Blame your ex-president for the politicization* of what should have simply been a problem handled by the medical professionals.
> 
> - Dark_Lightning


And you're the one saying to keep politics out of the discussion? Seriously?


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

Yeaah, my bad.


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## Wood_Scraps (Jan 31, 2021)

> I started a thread about Covid and breathing protection, not politics. That was not my intent, but what people read into it. *Blame your ex-president for the politicization* of what should have simply been a problem handled by the medical professionals.
> 
> - Dark_Lightning
> 
> ...


This.

OP starts a political thread. Makes it sound like he wants to hear other's opinions/perspective. Instead was just seeking confirmation bias. Gets flustered when it doesn't go that way. In reality, he didn't want to hear other's thoughts. Instead just wanted to hear his own coming out of everyone else's mouth.


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

Help me out by pointing out what is political in the OP.


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## iminmyshop (Dec 9, 2012)

And now lets please close this discussion and return to the point of this website, woodworking.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> And now lets please close this discussion and return to the point of this website, woodworking.
> 
> - iminmyshop


Talk about chutzpah! Did I miss the part where they elected you Sheriff of LumberJocks?


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

Masks can be political or scientific, I chose the scientific route.


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## fuigb (Apr 21, 2010)

I grew up around people with black lung from the mines and all sorts of breathing issues and cancer from industry so I always use protection, Covid or not. 3M cartridge filter gear has been my go-to. When the lock-downs began I donated my stockpile of N95 to a pool for hospital workers. Of the folks I see refusing to wear masks when in public I am hoping that they will take their little rebellion all of the way: stop following guidelines that call for shoes and shirts when in stores. After a year many of us can use the laugh.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Thanks for the humor to lighten the conversation. Of course, there will still be many who don't know they can just chose to not be involved, that they can move on to other threads and that they can unfollow a thread they followed.



> And now lets please close this discussion and return to the point of this website, woodworking.
> 
> - iminmyshop


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## wildwoodbybrianjohns (Aug 22, 2019)

When the lockstapo began here, I donated my stockpile of masks to the girls who work in the local supermarket. It wasnt many, but enough for all the girls. They are very nice to me as a result; and at the meat counter, the lady will always wrap up a few bones for my dogs, gratis.

It sure has been a long two weeks to flatten that curve, though, huh?


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## Sawdust2012 (Sep 17, 2013)

> Masks can be political or scientific, I chose the scientific route.
> 
> - controlfreak


So how do you get away with not wearing one?


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Whether anyone here wants to admit or recognize it, much of the C-19 stuff is political.

To say those in power and with an ability to do so would not use their power to put in place their own agendas is the stuff to which the ignorant and fools adhere. Our public record (case law, etc.) bears out the fact public agents will abuse their granted power to pursue their own interests and wants. The fact is, we have fifty-one constitutions purposed to bind them down for a reason.

Without getting to claimed C-19 case numbers and deaths said to be out of it, how can you say it is anything other than political when [an] agent(s) of one state shut(s) down protected freedoms of We The People, while another state's agents did not?

Let's consider claims of following science. In doing so, start with the facts noted in the paragraph immediately preceding this one.

Those making claims of following the science are, generally, far from experts. Rather, they picked and chose who they listened to. Often, those they chose to listen to are of a political group with a certain bent.

Too often, the aforementioned bents are toward establishing a welfare state (socialism by another name or description). To adhere to their stance(s), they must ignore those people whose credentials suggest they are no less expert than those making claims that further the destruction of the economy (the American way of life) is essential.



> Help me out by pointing out what is political in the OP.
> 
> - Dark_Lightning


How has Covid-19 changed the way you view breathing protection in the shop, or in the rest of the non-woodworking part of our society?


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

I had NO political motivation when starting this thread. The motivation was that perhaps people have learned something in the last year about masking up, and had some new insights about that. Politic discussions are a no-no here, the reason for which has been amply demonstrated in this very thread. People read into it whatever they liked, as people usually do.

I also don't appreciate people imputing motives as though they can read my mind when I publish something. Claiming that "How has Covid-19 changed the way you view breathing protection in the shop, or in the rest of the non-woodworking part of our society?" is politically motivated is in the eyes of the beholder, and wrong.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> I had NO political motivation when starting this thread. The motivation was that perhaps people have learned something in the last year about masking up, and had some new insights about that. Politic discussions are a no-no here, the reason for which has been amply demonstrated in this very thread. People read into it whatever they liked, as people usually do.
> 
> - Dark_Lightning


I think there were some useful comments on this thread. I followed along.


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

> In South Dakota, our Governor is giving us the freedom of choice. I only wear a mask in my shop when creating dust. I don t wear a mask when up and about, even in large group events. Very few of the people I know wear a mask. To answer the question, nothing has changed. No fear mongering here.
> 
> - WoodenDreams


Gee… SD has the second highest number of people who've gotten covid per capita in the country. ND is first. It would seem freedom has it's price. To each his own I guess.


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## wildwoodbybrianjohns (Aug 22, 2019)

> Gee… SD has the second highest number of people who ve gotten covid per capita in the country. ND is first. It would seem freedom has it s price. To each his own I guess.
> 
> - Craftsman on the lake


Gee, "Cases, Cases, Cases" like, with that devastating 99.8% survival rate. So Scary!!!

My wife, my Son, and I had the terrible Covid19 bugs and beat it in two days. Pffttt. NadaBurger.

Why arent Our Health Experts advising people to be Active, be in the Sun, and Eat healthy food - all in order to boost the immune system! People who do not do these things are going to have a hard time with any illness, and no one is to blame but themselves.

In Japan, people commonly wear masks out of courtesy during Flu-season or when they are ill. They dont have to be TOLD to do this, they just do it. Thus, the Govt Authority doesnt mandate them like irresponsible children.

What is super funny is that people think/believe/expect that this is all just gonna go away someday, like magic, poof! And its gone! Once I git me muh vasinashun, I be all like immuned and stuff. Nope. It dont work that way.

Viruses have been around alot longer than Us, and probably will be long after Us, and in fact, about 10% of our DNA coding was put there by Retroviruses (some claim even more). Covid19 is a retrovirus.

If you would like to learn something, rather than regurgitating what others have told you, I may suggest the book:

*Virus Mania*, by Thorsten Engelbrecht.

Can be found in PDF for free online.


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

> Masks can be political or scientific, I chose the scientific route.
> 
> - controlfreak
> 
> ...


In SC I just don't wear it unless required to. Walk into woodcraft or other tool store and you will find zero mast wearing. HD and Lowes about 30% no mask. My office, no mask wearing at all. We are very laid back about and live to tell the tale.


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

> Masks can be political or scientific, I chose the scientific route.
> 
> - controlfreak
> 
> ...


SC is #11 in the covid infections per capita. Somebody didn't live to tell about it.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Gee… SD has the second highest number of people who ve gotten covid per capita in the country. ND is first. It would seem freedom has it s price. To each his own I guess.
> 
> - Craftsman on the lake


That doesn't jive with the data I've seen. Do you have a link to a reputable source?


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## gdaveg (Aug 1, 2020)

About 2018 I got tired of eating/breathing wood chips. Table saws, lathes, sanders…. I found N-95 vented masks and wore them in the shop especially with those 3 mentioned purveyors of flying wood particles.

Covid came along and with it masks, 6 feet of space and washing/sanitizers. I did follow the rules for the most part. was shamed for having the vented N-95's as the were for health care workers and front line workers. I did not give them away to HC/FL-ers.

Our shop in AZ has masks at all times now. Almost everyone has had at least 1 shot, many 2 shots by now.

But I will continue to use masks in public and the shop till my second shot soaks in for 21 days.


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

> Gee… SD has the second highest number of people who ve gotten covid per capita in the country. ND is first. It would seem freedom has it s price. To each his own I guess.
> 
> - Craftsman on the lake
> 
> ...


Sure, it's the one that all states funnel into with John Hopkins and the CDC. Just click the top of the column that says "Total cases per mil population". You'll see you're #11. All states update it every day. You can click in and see the new daily cases/deaths populate the columns as each state's disease center logs in.

For a long time in Maine, a ways back now, we were told to avoid SC and Florida by the our CDC in Maine. You guys were near the top of the list at one time. Right now the leaders are North D. and South D. They have more infections per capita than a lot of European countries. I have a nephew in SD. He talks like you. Whole family had it. Mother in law is dead.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Sure, it s the one that all states funnel into with John Hopkins and the CDC. Just click the top of the column that says "Total cases per mil population".
> 
> - Craftsman on the lake


I was looking at deaths. They seem a little more significant.


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## Sawdust2012 (Sep 17, 2013)

> About 2018 I got tired of eating/breathing wood chips. Table saws, lathes, sanders…. I found N-95 vented masks and wore them in the shop especially with those 3 mentioned purveyors of flying wood particles.
> 
> Covid came along and with it masks, 6 feet of space and washing/sanitizers. I did follow the rules for the most part. was shamed for having the vented N-95 s as the were for health care workers and front line workers. I did not give them away to HC/FL-ers.
> 
> ...


The first shot after you seroconvert - about 14 days - is about as effective as the flu shot.


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

I haven't heard of a flu shot being over 90% effective before which right or wrong is what some of the vaccines are claiming. I thought the flu shot was usually hitting in the 30% to 50% range. And yes 14 days is the window to achieve the full effect.


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

> I haven t heard of a flu shot being over 90% effective before which right or wrong is what some of the vaccines are claiming. I thought the flu shot was usually hitting in the 30% to 50% range. And yes 14 days is the window to achieve the full effect.
> 
> - controlfreak


The flu shots are usually about 50% effective or less. They also take 3-4 yrs to develop. The reason these are so effective is that they used a completely new process that makes them faster and as it turns out more effective.

The flu vaccines are made by growing dead or weakened flu strains in eggs. (hence if you have an egg allergy you can't take them). By giving you the vaccine your body learns about it and can quickly recognize it if you should come in contact with it and make antigens right away. It kills the thing before it can take hold.

The covid vaccine is a new process. Hasn't been used before. They use recombinent RNA. It's a blueprint that actually teaches your body how to make a receptor that can block the vaccine from locking onto the things in your body that will make you sick. You still get covid, it just can't seem to do it's thing so you don't get sick. That's the reason why we still need masks after the shot until the population reaches herd immunity. We still have the virus for awhile. We just never get sick to know it. Sort of like 'asympomatic' people. So if someone comes in contact with us who isn't vaccinated we will infect them just as easily as before. Those who don't get vaccinated will be around a whole lot of people who have been vaccinated and feel free to go about their business but will be, for a time, walking disease spreaders to those who refuse the vaccination. Not being vaccinated will eventually make you a target.


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

> Sure, it s the one that all states funnel into with John Hopkins and the CDC. Just click the top of the column that says "Total cases per mil population".
> 
> - Craftsman on the lake
> 
> - Rich


That is true. The death rate is lower in comparison to the high number of infections. But, my niece works in a covid ward as an RN in the hospital. She says half the people have symptoms that can be mild to horrible for a few months to life. She says, "you DON'T want to get this, if you get sick you'll always know you had it. It's not the flu." 
I was looking at deaths. They seem a little more significant.


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

My kids always do the the same, South Carolina is 11th (my list I just checked says 18th) and Florida is 27th but they never mention that some of the biggest shutdown and mask states are at the top of the list (number one is NJ followed by NY for those of you in Rio Linda) and by the way the list is changing. South Carolina has been wide open with no limit on dinning indoors or out. Not saying its perfect but total lock down and masking has been less than perfect too. Of course if you have a biased view you can find stats to bolster any viewpoint. I will also point out that a doctor I recently went to had issues with mask wearing and he may have had some valid points (opinions or research I just don't know as I am not trained as fact checker of the universe like those at Google and twitter). Anyway he posted his opinion and immediately was banned and lost 60 thousand followers as a result. I don't do research on this like I would like to because many views are throttled or canceled now. This leaves me thinking that I can't trust anything posted as content that I can rely on has been pre censored and cleaned of all unsafe thought before I can analyze it. Which leads me back to woodworking, no one has to tell me what to make but I will listen to all suggestions. Woodworking is so much easier than politics and more fun!


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

> My kids always do the the same, South Carolina is 11th (my list I just checked says 18th) and Florida is 27th but they never mention that some of the biggest shutdown and mask states are at the top of the list (number one is NJ followed by NY for those of you in Rio Linda) and by the way the list is changing. South Carolina has been wide open with no limit on dinning indoors or out. Not saying its perfect but total lock down and masking has been less than perfect too. Of course if you have a biased view you can find stats to bolster any viewpoint. I will also point out that a doctor I recently went to had issues with mask wearing and he may have had some valid points (opinions or research I just don t know as I am not trained as fact checker of the universe like those at Google and twitter). Anyway he posted his opinion and immediately was banned and lost 60 thousand followers as a result. I don t do research on this like I would like to because many views are throttled or canceled now. This leaves me thinking that I can t trust anything posted as content that I can rely on has been pre censored and cleaned of all unsafe thought before I can analyze it. Which leads me back to woodworking, no one has to tell me what to make but I will listen to all suggestions. Woodworking is so much easier than politics and more fun!
> 
> - controlfreak


I find that people want what they want, so they go with whatever information fits what they want. At a half million deaths in a year, twelve times that of a flu season. More than all the deaths in WWI. Someone was right someplace.


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

In the chart US deaths when looked at over many years I see a spike or upturn starting in 2014 but don't see a marked Covid related "spike" which I was expecting to see. Does that mean the change is not significant or am I missing something. Be nice folks. I am asking not stating for my own gratification here.


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

> In the chart US deaths when looked at over many years I see a spike or upturn starting in 2014 but don t see a marked Covid related "spike" which I was expecting to see. Does that mean the change is not significant or am I missing something. Be nice folks. I am asking not stating for my own gratification here.
> 
> - controlfreak


At the top of the page it says that the data does not include the impact of the covid virus.


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## WoodenDreams (Aug 23, 2018)

This seemed to turn a wrong direction. It started out as, has the epidemic change your view in breathing protection in your shop or elsewhere.

I'll add, what did you do about it in your shop. Some may have increased their dust collection at their machines or air born dust in the shop. If so, how did you change or improve your shop environment when it comes to dust..


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

Not trying to be a smart ass but I don't think they would have a reason to exclude Covid deaths. So by my math total death rate should reveal an uptick related to Covid if it exists with the only mitigating factor I can think of is fewer traffic deaths other deadly activities curtailed by behavior changes.


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

> This seemed to turn a wrong direction. It started out as, has the epidemic change your view in breathing protection in your shop or elsewhere.
> 
> I ll add, what did you do about it in your shop. Some may have increased their dust collection at their machines or air born dust in the shop. If so, how did you change or improve your shop environment when it comes to dust..
> 
> - WoodenDreams


This winter I put my 1.5 hp dust collector in the garage. My shop is a garrison building on top of the garage. I was considering a winn filter but thought that If I got it out of the room completely that would be good. Of course it sucks my winter heat out of the building but it doesn't seem to make that much of a difference. I thought it would big time but not bad. I've got a super good monitor k1 heater that was in my house. It can heat four times the space and is so cheap to run. The collector is on my router table, jointer, planer, and sander with gates. It works very good.

The only thing not on a dust collector is my table saw, a Sawstop. I'd either need a bigger dust collector or another smaller one dedicated just to it. I'm thinking of a Harbor freight one done the same way, out of the shop. I will probably do it this summer.

As for masks. I don't use one much but I do have one. I'm negligent that way. I do have a good 3M one for varnishing and such though.
Dust collection… it's seems like a never ending battle without breaking the bank.


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

@woodenDreams The first sentence had "How has Covid-19 changed the way you view breathing protection" so it got the ball rolling but I agree this is going off track so to speak so I will leave it where it is at and let others steer this back on course.

I do have a bad habit of not wearing in the shop but with dust control and lots of hand tool work I am not really worried about it…..right now.


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

> Not trying to be a smart ass but I don t think they would have a reason to exclude Covid deaths. So by my math total death rate should reveal an uptick related to Covid if it exists with the only mitigating factor I can think of is fewer traffic deaths other deadly activities curtailed by behavior changes.
> 
> - controlfreak


It says above the graph that it doesn't reflect covid deaths and it's not even actual data, it's a prediction of death rates through the year 2100, probably made before covid even started. It's what someone thinks will happen.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

About that science:


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

^That's obviously a misapplication of the science. "Science" isn't responsible for anything, people have to apply it…or not. And yes, what they are doing there is just plain silly…and unscientific.


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## woodbutcherbynight (Oct 21, 2011)

> Talk about chutzpah! Did I miss the part where they elected you Sheriff of LumberJocks?
> 
> - Rich


LOL, saw that and almost choked on my drink.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

You do know the people claiming to follow the science made the rules that allowed this, right?

As such, what is called science is just political bull. At best, they are placating the masses to avoid an exercise of the second.

If you are going down this road, it, necessarily, would include social distancing from friends, associates, family and clients.

It would even go to the insanity of sanitizing everything in sight with toxic chemicals in open areas and so on.



> ^That s obviously a misapplication of the science. "Science" isn t responsible for anything, people have to apply it…or not. And yes, what they are doing there is just plain silly…and unscientific.
> 
> - Dark_Lightning


Add to the foregoing:


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

Didn't you see where Biden told people to stay home and apply for asylum?

Pretty far off topic, actually, and especially so since the borders haven't actually been opened . Please try to stay on topic.


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

> About that science:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That wasn't science's choice it was an NBA choice. 133 players have tested positive for covid. A few of them may never play again. Some NFL players like that too. Enlarged heart and other issues.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> Enlarged heart and other issues.
> 
> - Craftsman on the lake


Same thing happened to the Grinch and he ended up saving Christmas


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Let's start with a problem I have: I worked in law for a few decades. The crap I saw during that made a lie out of much of what we had pounded in our head about government.

To get an inkling of the problems surrounding our daily lives, spend a day in a law library reading. Chose some carefully worded search topics. Things like government corruption, corporate fraud, conflict of interest, vaccine injury, and so on. Likely, you will be taken to pages showing even courts have been declared RICO enterprises and the personnel running them imprisoned.

Here, we are talking about a thing in which officials have reversed their "expert" opinions over and over again. We have a artificial entities we call the CDC and WHO changing definitions, changing recomendations and supporting multi-billion dollar corporations in a huge experiment. 90% of the people running those entities are ignorant on anything more than data entry and so on. Many of the other 10%, including those at the heads of the entities, have blatant conflicts of interest from past ties and investments.

A fact of the matter remains, people are making claims of following science, when they are, in reality, only listening to people they selected. Meanwhile, others, with no less impressive credentials, and WITHOUT conflicts of interest offer valid proofs countering the promoted points.

As for the NFL, how cool is it that they are free to make a "choice" (must be so called essential workers), while the rest of us are denied that, or are mocked and ridiculed for the same?

Do the NFL players ONLY play in one state, or do they move to other states too, where authorities claim to "rely on the science", like Washington governor InSLEEZE?

Some of what people are calling science is not. It is that simple. Politics cannot be separated from this mater as easily as some here suppose. That someone working for a public agency does not guarantee politics, as indicated in the first few paragraphs. There will always be those who will do anything to protect their position, to gain power, to promote a private agenda and so on. One rogue agent can misdirect and entire agency, business or other group.

Not one person here can claim, with certainty, no conspiracies were associated with the virus event. Considering the billions to be made and the power attained playing on it, it would seem foolish to believe all were saintly and no pages will be added to our law books, or more billions paid out for injuries from people buying the hype.

One can say, with certainty, there is a great deal of bias in reaching solutions: Never or rarely is a word spoken about nebulized hydrogen peroxide and iodine, lipsomal C or C injections, D3, A, quercetin and zinc, CPAP for breathing and so on.


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## Sawdust2012 (Sep 17, 2013)

> Masks can be political or scientific, I chose the scientific route.
> 
> - controlfreak
> 
> ...


Then you should stay out of SC. If you find yourself here, one of the rest of us will give you a ride to the airport because Delta is ready when you are. The person in charge of my health and safety is the guy whose pic is on my drivers license. If I am that worried about my 99.9% chance of surviving, I should probably stay at home and knit sweaters.


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

> Masks can be political or scientific, I chose the scientific route.
> 
> - controlfreak
> 
> ...


Oh yes, many stayed out of SC. Thing is, the guy from SC can't stay out of SC. It's the ultimate selfish.Tell a nurse in a covid ward where you live this.


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## Sawdust2012 (Sep 17, 2013)

> Masks can be political or scientific, I chose the scientific route.
> 
> - controlfreak
> 
> ...


I may be wrong, I probably haven't read all the medical literature, but in a quest to satiate my appalling selfishness, I'm sure I have read more than my share. I have yet to hear of a case in which COVID knocked on some poor unwitting soul's door, wrestled him to the ground and infected him. Somewhere along the line there was a choice made to put oneself in danger of exposure in every case. If we take this mask logic to its extreme, no one can drive over 25 mph because it might hurt someone. Life goes on and there are risks to life. The nurses on the 'COVID ward", more commonly known as Infectious Disease, are fully aware that they face risks everyday with much more serious implications than COVID. They are compensated with that in mind, and are free to seek employment in a more benign environment if the risk outweighs the benefit in their mind. If anyone is that concerned about their 99.9% chance of surviving COVID, by all means isolate yourself and spray a fog of Lysol. The rest of us have lives to lead and families to feed.


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

> I may be wrong,
> 
> - Sawdust2012


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> I may be wrong,
> 
> - Sawdust2012
> 
> - Craftsman on the lake


I'm guessing you weren't the captain of the debate team in school. There are valid ways to counter an argument, but quoting someone out of context like that isn't one of them.


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## tvrgeek (Nov 19, 2013)

On the whole, as a population, we do not take very good care of our lungs. 14% of the US population still smoke. Some other things. Many falsely believe an air filter takes care of everything. They help, but not all. When we evolved, life was rough and life spans in the 30's did not give a chance for many of the cumulative issues we have now with typical spans in the 80's. About 1 in 5 deaths in the US were premature due to lung disease. These are facts. Rules either by the randomness of nature or defined by a deity does not matter.

I have seen too many friends and family with lung disease. It is horrible. Do as you wish, but think if you are capable of thinking without political guidance. Maybe I am more careful as I almost bought it mountain climbing in my 20's. A snow shoot gave way under me. Made me think a bit.


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

> I may be wrong,
> 
> - Sawdust2012
> 
> ...


First rule of debate team. Never start an argument by saying you are wrong.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> First rule of debate team. Never start an argument by saying you are wrong.
> 
> - Craftsman on the lake


He didn't say he was wrong. You simply went for the low-blow. That's now how a skilled debater does it.


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

> First rule of debate team. Never start an argument by saying you are wrong.
> 
> - Craftsman on the lake
> 
> ...


Well he did say he was wrong, and I was the captain of the debate team so I took his comment as a low blow.
Anyway, enough of this thread. Unwatching. You all have a good day. All the best to you. Stay well. Wear your mask for us old folk. I've buried to many people with this covid thing to change my mind about it.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Well he did say he was wrong
> 
> - Craftsman on the lake


He said "I may be wrong." Surely the captain of the debate team can distinguish between the two.

By saying that, he indicated that he is human and therefore fallible, not smugly self-righteous like some.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

The low mortality rate always seems to be used as an argument why masks are not necessary. What people don't seem to notice (for lack of a better term) is that in just one year since this disease emerged as a pandemic, more Americans have died from it than died in all wars since 1900 and by the end of this year we may surpass the number that have died in all wars starting with the revolutionary war. We all talk about supporting the troops when we go to war and sometimes we collectively have sacrificed as a society as we did in WW1 & WW2 to support the war effort but when comes to the inconvenience of wearing a mask, it is way too much trouble. In this case, the troops are the doctors and nurses who save lives and in some case console those who lose the battle because it is too dangerous for the family to visit. What the troops really need is that we all do our part to prevent the spread of the disease.

For those that still don't understand why wearing a mask helps…


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## Sawdust2012 (Sep 17, 2013)

> I may be wrong,
> 
> - Sawdust2012
> 
> ...


Thanks for the debate team rules update. I was too busy having friends and going on dates during my school years to read them.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

A bit of that science:










P.S. The example of pee has merit and is fun, but only to a degree. Some of the pee still gets out and about by way of evaporation. Check out a horse stall, which has not been cleaned in a while.

The difference is, the smell in the air is carried in a gas state, just as the virus i, not.

As I said before, no one in the PRO-SHUT DOWN THE ECONOMY crowd is discussing things like:

(1) How many viruses must get through to infect you;

(2) Why some are not affected at all, including all but a few kids, but who are, now, being included in the very profitable experiments, even as autism rates have changed from 1:10,000 to 1:100 over mere decades (the saying "has not been proven to" is not the same as "has been proven to"?

(3) Why do people believe only for profit corporations can save mankind from all things tiny and ignore things mentioned above completely?

. . . .

Using the "has not been proven" approach (can't have it both ways), merely that one state has more so called cases than another does not guarantee more lax edicts caused it. After all, the number of tests skyrocketed and so did supposed infections. Was the per capita testing the same as in a lower state? Then there is the matter of how many out of towners flood a place. Add to this things many other variables, including that a localities experts are anything but. They are so unqualified they got there by way of people voting the cutest one, or one a a given gender or color to be in charge. In short, the information is not as reliable as some presume.


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## Cricket (Jan 15, 2014)

It is time to go ahead and close this threa.


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