# How square is square?



## RichardDePetris

I am putting together some shop cabinets and it's been driving me crazy. As a new woodworker, I am having the time of my life reading about woodworking from the armchair, but when I go into the shop, it's a different story. What I thought I knew, turns out to be not enough or just plain wrong. It has been a very frustrating experience, especially getting straight cuts and squaring up pieces.

I was using (don't laugh) my bandsaw to cut lumber and even plywood. Aside from the roughness, the edges looked straight, but there's sometimes a slight dip or bow from lengthwise where you can see light when I hold a straight edge against it. I've tried everything in vain to fix or prevent the problem, including endless fiddling with the guides. I tried to check for blade drift and couldn't find any.

Given to frustration, I purchased a Makita track saw (tablesaws are too dangerous, everyone I know has a story of a relative or friend who lost a finger) and I was amazed at the razor straight cuts. The problem is that when I stack the boards on top of each other and line them up, I find I am off square by 1/16" all the way up to 1/8". I've gone back and tried to re-square them and made the problem worse.

Do I need to invest in one of those squares thingies for the tracksaw? The thought that I am being obsessive compulsive about it also has entered my mind. How square is square? Is 1/16 or 1/32 inch off square going to screw up the entire project. If you have to joint edges for proper glue up, then being that much off should be really bad, shouldn't it? Do I have a machinist's mentality that needs checking?

Any ideas? Thanks.


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## cjwillie

If each cabinet is 1/16" out of square, the problem will multiply with each cabinet. It's either square or it's not. I don't know who has been telling you all the horror stories about tablesaws but I think they have been exaggerated a bit. Any cutting tool can be dangerous but with proper instruction and use, a tablesaw is no more dangerous than your track saw. A tablesaw allows you to duplicate cuts accurately and quickly. You still need an accurate square no matter how you cut your pieces.

The closer you are to being square and true, the easier the whole installation will go.


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## rustfever

All cabinets are installed into house/buildings that are not necessarily square. Good cabinet makers use the 'scribe-to-fit' system.
How does this work?
Allow a piece of material that can be scribed and trimed to and fitted to the irregular wall.


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## waho6o9

If your diagonal measurements are the same, then it's 
square.


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## realcowtown_eric

I'll re-iterate willies comments. make it as square as possible right from the start, as to be sure, errors will compound.

if 1/16th is acceptable on a first piece cut, what's next…1/8. then 3/16

And diagonals may be a good check for a piece of flat stock, but for cabinets, it's gotta be square front sides and back.

square is square, straight is straight, sloppy is sloppy. that's about all there is to it.

Seek alignment with the universe….

Eric


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## RichardDePetris

Thanks for the replies, but what''s the tolerance? How off can I be when making a cabinet carcass for instance? The cabinets are standalone, as most of the stuff I do is. Surely, the ancient wood workers didn't have the accuracy we have now, so there must be some acceptable margin of error, especially when considering wood movement.

Interestingly, my bandsaw cuts are often dead square for the first few inches on one corner, but can be a hair off on the other corners. Maybe there's no hard fast rule and only experience will yield a better understanding, but there's something very unsatsfying about that.


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## paxorion

I tried an experiment to see if I could get away with woodworking project without using a table saw. I had a pain of a time trying to cut a few panels for a cabinet I am making with my circular saw + guide, and kept seeing how cumulative error really throws a wrench into the project. The harder part was making sure the operation was repeatable, which I find very difficult without the right stationary reference point. For example, Festool's approach would be the MFT, and not just a square. Eventually, I got it "right enough", but for the next round, I just went to the shop and cut everything on a table saw and a cross-cut sled. I didn't even have to THINK, to get the cuts right because the table saw is very repeatable for those operations. That experiment taught me that for me, a properly tuned table saw, with the right accessories/jigs is an indispensable tool that improves the speed, quality, and repeatability of my work.

I think the danger with a table saw comes from user behavior (i.e. knowing what to do and making sure you're fully capable of doing that operation at that moment…like making sure you don't work when you're tired, rushed, or any other condition when you are not in the right state of (sober) mind), using the right safety fixtures and accessories (e.g. guards, featherboards, push sticks/blocks, etc) for the operation, and to make sure your tool is properly alignment to ensure a predictable operation.


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## PLK

A band saw blade can "wander" If your trying to build cabinets with one my guess is you will be very unhappy. I personally don't consider 1/32th of an error acceptable in cabinet making. Interestingly enough I left my shop like this today.










cabinet carcase parts all over the place!

2 tools come to mind as a must, at least for me to make cabinets square. A Table saw, or more time consuming a track saw.

I wouldn't even try to use my band saw to make cabinets.

Paul


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## woodchuckerNJ

A band saw can indeed rip boards to width, but will need a plane to clean up.
The band saw can not easily do large sheet goods, the table isn't big enough. You would have to build outriggers, and outfeed, and possibly an infeed.. then learn to properly push through at the right feed rate.

A tablesaw or track saw has a better chance of doing the cut. Even a handsaw after practice.
1/32 may not seem like a lot, but the errors add up over time. But if it is rough stuff you are building, you are in the learning process. In order to build with a track saw, you must learn to reference one straight edge to begin with, don't start using another reference. * You can stack cut the parts to exact size after rough cutting.. That will ensure 2 like side, but not square.*

If you are using a framing square for your first 90, have you checked your framing square. Make sure it is accurate. Put it on a sheet, draw a line, then flip the square over using the same edge, and draw a line right next to the one you drew.. Are they parallel??? If not, you need to adjust your framing square.. do a google search on how..

One of the tricks you might want to learn is to not use the tape measure, but to use a story stick. You can use the tape for the first measure, but then set that mark on a story stick and use it to set the other end of the track.. and verify both ends… Or make it like a story stick with a hooked end..like a hooked end ruler.. it will keep you lined up…
BTW a compass can be used to draw a 90 degree line.. So you can check your squares line that way too.


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## PLK

woodchucker,

"A band saw can indeed rip boards to width, but will need a plane to clean up."

100% true, but the OP is talking cabinet panel cutting. I wouldn't recommend using a plane to clean up a plywood cut.

This is shop project he's talking about so I assume he's using ply.

Paul


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## MT_Stringer

It comes down to this. Your cabinet parts need to be cut accurately. If they are, the cabinet will go together nicely and it will be square. I measured the last one I built. Both diagonal measurements were 35 5/8 inches. That is good enough for me.

If you can't make accurate cuts, you might as well stop now. Frustration can be a bad thing.


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## GarageWoodworks

@waho6o9 That's not always true and can lead you down the wrong path.










If X is shorter than Y (or vise versa), A can still equal B in distance, but your piece will not be square.


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## guitchess

I have built dozens of feet of cabinet with nothing more than a circ saw and straight edge jigs. It seems to me that the real issue is your layout technique/tools. Everything from a dull pencil leaving an over size line to the fact that plywood is routinely out of square from the start can cause the described issues. My tips include a sharp/mechanical pencil or perhaps a marking knife, getting very comfortable with Pythagoras's Theorem/3 4 5 method, and making sure the ply panel is fully supported during all marking/cutting operations. I will go into further explanation of these tips if needed.

As to the question of how much accuracy is required, it depends on your goals and build methods. Considering you're talking about shop cabinets, I would assume you are not building them like a piece of furniture. As far as modern production cabinet construction, the carcasses could be 1/2" out of square with very little issue(not that I think it's ok to build that way). The face frames, doors, and drawers are where accuracy is required. If you do want to build it furniture grade, then every 64th counts, and I would venture to say that it is almost impossible to do without a tablesaw. You will at very least double the project time.

Just my $.02

P.S. I just wanted to say that in the time it takes to learn how circumvent the table saw with the necessary accuracy, you could learn how to use a table saw in a safe manner, which would open up a world of possibilities. Despite what the inventor of the Sawstop would have us believe, it is possible to use a table saw for a lifetime without replicating his injury.


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## Whiskers

First I want to reiterate the squareing of your plywood stock. I'm amazed at how out of square it can be.

2nd, If these are standalone shop cabinets, a little out of square is not going to hurt that much. I know that none of the mobile stands I have built are 100 percent square, cause I used a circular saw and ordinary lumber as a straight edge for most of the cuts. Generally what I did was cut the top and bottom as square as possible using a circular saw slightly larger than the minimum size I wanted, than I select which sides will be top and bottom etc and clamp the top and bottom together. Invariably they were off a little bit. Sometimes more than I will admit. To "square" them up to each other I used my router and a pattern bit to trim whatever side down to match the other. Flip the 2 pieces and do the other size, that way the top and bottom are now "square" to each other. Than I set about measuring and pieceing the face frames around the pieces. Even if the edges are a little bowed in or out the 1×2 stock has plenty of give to make a good edge. One would not know how imperfectly square my cabinets are.

Of course this is for the shop, not furniture grade. I needed to make my tools usable before I could attempt making furniture.


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## bbc557ci

*Thanks for the replies, **but what''s the tolerance? How off can I be when making a cabinet carcass for instance*?* The cabinets are standalone, as most of the stuff I do is. Surely, the ancient wood workers didn't have the accuracy we have now, so there must be some acceptable margin of error, especially when considering wood movement.

Interestingly, my bandsaw cuts are often dead square for the first few inches on one corner, but can be a hair off on the other corners. Maybe there's no hard fast rule and only experience will yield a better understanding, but there's something very unsatsfying about that.*

In wood working a *perfect* 90 or attaining a *perfectly* square piece can be challenging, at least. Take your time though and you can get damn close with a good strait edge, cic saw, and measuring tool/s.

For, or of myself, I expect very close tolerances…yeah, some times I drive myself nutz… but that's just me. And I've found that getting accurate repeat cuts is allot easier with a table saw than with a strait edge and circular saw.

Man up and get a decent table saw ;o) If you're afraid of the blade you have two choices. Get a Saw Stop, or use a rubber blade )


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## guitchess

"Maybe there's no hard fast rule and only experience will yield a better understanding,"

You've hit the nail on the head. There are as many different acceptable tolerances as there are woodworkers. You are going to have to find you own balance of project quality and build time. Unfortunately, this is my greatest weakness. After being in the production carpentry industry for 23 years, it's hard for me to slow down and try to make something flawless. There is something ingrained in me that makes it hard to spend days on a box or step stool. That's why everything in my projects list was built in 8 hours or less, including finish.

For me, the tolerance depends on the size of the build. The smaller the build the smaller the tolerance.

For example, if the carcass of a 12' bank of shop cabs were within 1/8", I would call it good. Doors, drawers, and face frames would have to be a quarter of that at 1/32". As far as cutting the bulkheads, it is quite easy to fudge 1/16" out if you take certain steps. For instance, aligning the panel's out of squareness, under-sizing the carcass to allow for shimming, and adjusting the carcass after assembly. Of course, more initial accuracy dramatically reduces the time it takes for these steps.


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## MT_Stringer

Since you now have a track saw, use it as much as possible.

I didn't read where you are building base cabinets or wall cabinets, but it really doesn't matter. Accuracy does, just like others have mentioned above.

Most of the time I buy plywood from a local hardwoods seller. Depending on what I am building, I have them either crosscut or rip the sheet goods to a more manageable size. Sometimes I ask for 2×8 foot pieces. Other times, I have them crosscut the sheets at 32 and 64.

When I get home, I use my track saw to cut them into rough sizes. I leave as much over size as possible, such as 23 3/4 on one pass. Then I come back later and rip the other side so the piece is at it's final width of 23 1/4. I do this on the table saw.

To cut the lengths of the base cabinets, I inspect the pieces and insure the two sides are a mirror of each other. In my case using prefinished birch plywood, I make sure the good sides are face to face.

I also use a framing square to line up the track. I measure carefully and set the track accordingly. It is easy to get off just a tad, so measure twice, cut once. 

Then I clamp them to the work bench and using the track saw, cut them to length. Now those two ends are exactly the same. I mark them with chalk or painters tape or whatever comes to mind so I will know exactly which is which, especially if there will be eight pieces or more when I am through cutting. Label your pieces! You can thank me later. 









Here is an example. I apply painters tape to both sides of the cutline. Results have been good.

















In this pic, you can see the insulation foam board I used for the saw kerf. That also helps with the zero clearance effect to get a good clean cut on the bottom side.









I also use the track saw to rip rough lumber before I start milling it down to final size. Having one straight edge will let me rip the other side or even cross cut the board into smaller lengths to make milling easier.









Note: I wouldn't think of using a band saw to cut or rip any type of board or ply even though I do have a jointer.

If you are cross cutting boards that are fairly narrow, make a 90 deg jig or buy something like the Kreg square cut jig.

Good luck. I hope you find some of this info helpful.
Mike


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## Planeman40

You speak of "tolerance". I would say the tolerance for what You are doing would be 1/32" or less.

"Guitchess" is right about technique and tools. If it isn't laid out square and correctly you are screwed to start with. Get yourself a *drywall T-square* from Home Depot or Lowe's (http://www.homedepot.com/p/Johnson-54-in-Aluminum-Drywall-T-Square-JTS54HD/202258101). Use this to lay out your 4 ft. 8 ft sheet of plywood, always working from *one edge* of the plywood ( as said, plywood sheets aren't always square).

Cutting plywood accurately with a circular saw: Using the T-square, make yourself a wooden T-square from 1" x 4'' lumber making sure your lumber is straight. Make it the same size as your drywall T-square - 4 ft. long the long way and *make sure it's square*. Unlike your drywall T-square, make the long piece stick out about 8" or 10" beyond the "T" part of the square. This is to give you a good straight beginning to your circular saw when starting the cut. When the wooden T-square is finished, *clamp* it to one of the lines you have drawn on the plywood *exactly the distance from the circular saw blade to the saw edge* so the saw will cut precisely down the drawn pencil line. When you cut with the saw the first time, you will be cutting off a piece of the wooden T-square. From then on, you can always placed the edge of the cut off piece of the wooden T-square on the drawn lines, *clamp it down*, and the cut along the line using the wooden T-square as your saw guide.

As to accurate repeat cuts using your track saw, don't stack! The stack shifts slightly as the saw cuts through. You need to set up a "stop" at the opposite end of the piece to be cut so (1) the work is accurately positioned when each piece to be cut in placed in the saw, and (2) the "stop" keeps the piece from shifting when the blade cuts through it.

I hope this helps. It ain't easy being new at this. Knowledge is gained with time, reading, and making mistakes. I've been doing this kind of stuff for over 50 years and I still learn and make mistakes (but only occasionally).

Planeman

P.S. Oops! When you said "track saw" I envisioned a sliding miter saw. Oh well, maybe the above will help someone.


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## oldnovice

*GarageWoodworks* can you explain how this can be?
*If A=B then the piece is square!*
At least according to the Pythagorean formula!

Lets assign Z to the two short sides.

Z^2 + Y^2 = B^2 and Z^2 + X^2 = A^2 they are congruent triangles, equal sides and angles

If Z does not change and A does not equal B then X cannot equal Y
Conversely if X = Y and Z sides are equal then A=B


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## bondogaposis

Is 1/16 or 1/32 inch off square going to screw up the entire project?

I like to be within a sharp pencil line for my projects, that is the tolerance that I shoot for, a 1/16" of an inch is way too much on a furniture project.

Surely, the ancient wood workers didn't have the accuracy we have now, so there must be some acceptable margin of error, especially when considering wood movement.

Not true, woodworkers of 1 and 2 centuries ago worked to very high standards as can be seen in nearly any museum. They were able to hand saw and plane to a line, all they had to do was draw the line accurately. Wood movement is a consideration for the type of joinery used but not a justification for sloppy work.


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## hobby1

the diagonal measurement for squareness, only works properly, when the opposite sides are perfectly equal in length to eachother, if, (in the drawing above), "x "is smaller than "y", and if both end sides are perfectly equal in length with eachother, then length "A" could in a special case equal length "B". and *not* be square.

And that equality of length between "A" and "B", only can happen when "x" is *centered* across from "Y" any off centerness will cause the measurements to be different again.


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## NoThanks

Diagonal measurements are equal.


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## oldnovice

*hobby1* you are saying that the *Pythagorean Theorem* is wrong after over 2000 years of use!

If there is any inequality in either of the two opposite sides the diagonals will show that very dramatically.

For example a rectangle 3' x 4' will have a diagonal of 5'

Change one of the the 4' dimensions by 1/64" and the corresponding diagonal would be 24.875, 1/8" less than the other diagonal which would still be 5'.

A 1/64 error over 4' is about a 0.0005% error that exhibits it self as a 1/8" error on the diagonals.

I say all this with the assumption that the opposite sides are equal and I would assume that measurement would be made first, prior to assembly; if not then all bets are off.


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## oldnovice

*Iwud4u*, you have got to be kidding!

It should be *obvious to even the most casual observer* that two of the sides are by no means even the same length as the other two and making a diagonal measurement would be a total waste of time.


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## NoThanks

I was only pointing out that you can be totally out of square and still have equal diagonal measurements. 
I'm sure I could get the measurements of all the sides closer so that even the most casual observer would not notice it. But Thanks

Edit:
*NOT so obvious to even the most casual observer* 
sheesh


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## Dark_Lightning

Iwud4u, I agree with your assessment. The board cut could be an isosceles trapezoid, or worse, your example. At some point though, the woodworker has to have an accurate square, or he'll have to toss the whole project. I've had to do that, but it has been decades since that happened. I generally make a cut/measurement with a tool that is known to be square, by any number of checks. Note that I work with theodolites for a living and am used to measuring to within .005" and 5 seconds of arc. Not your usual accuracy for a box, though I sometimes get carried away, lol. I used to be really good, and could measure to within .002" and 1 second, but my eyes aren't that good, anymore.


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## hobby1

pythagorean theorem is about a right angle,

This is not about right angles but diagonal measurement mistakes.

this diag. proves out that if side "X" is parrallel and centered about opposite side panel "Y" and both end panels are same length, then the diagonal measurement will be the same, even though the angles are NOT 90 degree corners.

opposite side panels must be the same length to have square corner diagonal measurements.
in this case the x and y panels are not the same length,
thereby not allowing square corners even though diagonal measurements show the same.










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## Whiskers

Oh lord, this poor thread has degenerated into the first troll peeing contest I've witnessed on here. thank the lord some of you didn't teach me geometry. The string test will work on any Parallelogram, period. Rectangles and squares. If you have any basic knowledge of geometry, I.E. a high school education you should know if that will work or not. High school is were I learned geometry stuff. I also learned a lot from my father. The most valuable life practical things were from my father. Like how to mount a new garage door opener purrfectly centered on the door and purrfectly perpendicular.


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## hobby1

And even though the diag. is shown exagerated, this is to show a sequence of events that could take place to try to get a square cornered box, for instance, you cut all your side panels to a certain length, but unknownly you cut one side panel a little shorter, you assemble the box,

and you take your diagonal measurements, its off, so you shift the box until you get the measurements equal, in essence your making the short panel centered of its opposite panel, so now you put a square on it, and are confused why its out of square even though the diagonal measurements are equal,

its best to check that all opposite side panels are the same length before doing the diagonal measurements.


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## PLK

Where did that damn platypus go? I swear he was 1/64" away from where I put him last!

Trying to get this back on track from mr hobby lobby.

1/64" error is what I shoot for in cabinet making.


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## hobby1

another way that works is to use a square when assembling the panels, that way you can adjust them as you fasten them together, like norm does when he assembles the dust frames to the side panels.

He uses a speed square to help keep them aligned.


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## oldnovice

*hobby1*, when you measure across a rectangle diagonally you are essentially measuring two two right triangles, and using the *Pythagorean Theorem* proving not only that the *opposite sides are equal in length but that all four corners are at 90°* which is what square means.

I would assume that when you are fabricating something rectangular that you would try to make two pairs as identical as possible. After assembly into a rectangle it may not be square, as it may be a parallelogram, but by using the Pythagorean Theorem measurements it can be "squared up" and that is what this forum was about.

It is obvious in you drawing above that:

two of the opposite sides are *not equal in length*
*none of the angles are 90°*

*Iwud4u*, I get your point but wouldn't you try to make the opposite pairs as close to the same length as possible before you would even try to turn it into a rectangle?


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## oldnovice

*Dark_Lightning*, there was a group that specialized using optical and laser theodolites when I worked in the laser interferometer department before I retired about 5 years ago. They used the theodolites to align the optical corners and other interferometer optics on large scale semiconductor and LCD screen processing systems … not my forte.


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## hobby1

oldnovice:

Exactly what I'm trying to help the new woodworker to understand, any rectangle or square will have 90 deg. corners, as long as opposite sides are equal in length,

*but if he does not check first*, the actual lengths of the side panels to make sure that he has cut properly the sides opposite eachother to equal length, then he will be maneauvering the assembled case to get equal diagonal measurements, and wonder why, it's not showing up square corners, should he check it later with a square after its glued up.

The diagonal measurement for *square corners* only works when both pairs of opposite sides are equal in length.


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## PLK

Hobby1,

You are over complicating a simple measurement, therefor you are making it harder for your target audience "the new folk" to understand.

Paul


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## oldnovice

*hobby1*, I believe you are got it right in you very last statement.
If opposite sides are equal then this measurement will allow you to "square up" the assembly.
If it cannot be "squared up" then one or more of the sides are not the same length as the opposite side.

Can I say we are in agreement so that Pythagoras can rest in peace!


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## doitforfun

For the OP, if you think a table saw is dangerous, using the wrong tool for the job is usually more dangerous.


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## derosa

Table saws aren't scary so don't let people frighten you. Just maintain a healthy respect of the tool with an eye toward your safety and you will be fine. But that is true to all tools in the shop. My worst injury to date was with a mortiser, turns out I keep my bits as sharp as I'd always thought followed by the drill press when I moved a piece of wood without turning the drill off first. Accurate requirements vary, I've only made a couple picture frames that I considered the mitered corners good enough on meaning completely tight. 
As someone else mentioned on a standalone shop cabinet slightly out isn't that bad. Did a kitchen assembly for the wife's aunt and all the pre-made cabinets had tight seams but were out of square by about a 1/16" or slightly less. Made trying to line them up in a flat row impossible and required hiding the issue with tiny shims under the counter top and a cover below to hide the problem. The more accurate the better.


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## dhazelton

"but what''s the tolerance? How off can I be when making a cabinet carcass for instance?"

I'd say whatever is acceptable to you. A standalone cabinet 1/8 or even an 1/4 inch out of square probably wouldn't even be noticed. A lot of the cabinets you can buy at the box store will be thrown out of square if screwed to a crooked wall. As long as the doors close properly no one will ever know or care. You are supposed to enjoy your hobby - not let it frustrate you.


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## MrStyle

RichardDePetris:
As another hobbyist woodworker I feel your pain. I have been working on some built-ins and using a circular saw with a jig I was completely unable to get matching sizes in length or width. No matter how hard I worked at making my steps repeatable I still managed to introduce variations in similar work pieces. (from 1/32 to 1/8 mainly but a couple of ¼ too) Ughh!

So I accelerated my purchase of a table saw (an Rigid r4512 - which I am very happy with)....put it together, made a cross cut sled and then attacked my work pieces making the matching pairs the same length and width. This process corrected all of my mistakes(up to that point).

I would highly recommend making some corner clamps/L braces for assembly. This video shows you how to make them - 




I ended up making 6 of these things and they have really helped get my cabinets squared 









Just keep in mind that no matter what - you are going to screw up - how to creatively adjust to those mistakes is the skill to gain


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## Knothead62

I sold custom and factory cabinets. I never once saw a carpenter's square at a job site! Houses were built "by guess and by golly." 
FWIW, I know of a builder that stretches a line across the studs where there will be countertops. Then he builds up that area where there are gaps where the backs of the countertops will be by stapling cardboard. That way, when sheetrock is put up, the SR is flat in that particular area. Slick, huh?


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## Dark_Lightning

Knothead62, I seldom used a framing square on a job site either. It was chalk line, measuring tape and plumb bob. I can raise a wall plumb, and install cabinets square and true. And I know the tricks to make them look like that when they aren't. 

Whiskers, I used to teach High School Geometry, Algebra and Physics. I made many a side excursion into how errors crept into their drawings and measurements. Not sure where the "troll" part comes from. All internet postings have to be taken with a grain of salt; mine are not excepted. Sorting the wheat from the chaff is a learned art.


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## oldnovice

*Dark Lightning*, you said "Sorting the wheat from the chaff is a learned art." is a real understatement!

I would like to know what percentage of information is chaff. I bet it is in the 67% or better area.


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## dhazelton

Whenever I have installed cabinets a string was stretched as suggested and then a french cleat was shimmed to be parallel to it. Even if drywall is on the same plane the taped joints and corners are high. You can get crazy.


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## Nubsnstubs

Mr. Style's last line say's it all. I've used that thought for the last 30 years as a cabinet maker. A sign of a good cabinet maker is the ability to hide ones mistakes and still have a good looking outcome. 
Also, if you are afraid of a table saw, then you shouldn't be attempting to use any cutting tools. Find another hobby that's safer…..... Jerry (in Tucson)


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## MrStyle

Nubsnstubs:

*Mr. Style's last line say's it all. *

Alert the media - I made the rare valid point--- let me get my wife so she can read this thread !!!

Thanks Nubsnstubs….


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## guitchess

LOL. I'm sorry, and please don't take this as being disrespectful, but I find it funny that a person with the screen name of "Nubsnstubs" giving advice about fear of cutting tools.


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## lab7654

I think people are complicating the hell out of this; as soon as people start breaking down the Pythagorean Theorem, you know it's gone off topic. I'm with those who say to just get a table saw. Everyone is uncomfortable at some point with using a tool for the first time, but when that tool's function is so important, it's worth learning how to be safe. Go ahead and consult professionals, watch youtube clips, and just know that planning the cut is the most important step with any tool.

Also, some tool buying advice, don't be cheap and buy a portable saw if you're nervous. They're actually much more dangerous than a stationary one, for several reasons. Do some research, there's more than enough reviews on here to get good advice.


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## RichardDePetris

Thank all of you for your insightful posts and the mathematics refresher. I'm finding out that woodworking is a highly creative and intellectual art form.

I've been using my tracksaw and I must say the cuts are far better than the panel saws at the Borg where an 1/8 is considered acceptable. The cuts are unbelievably straight! Previously, I tried using a conventional circular saw and a shopmade edge guide, but it was hard to control the cut, especially towards the end. I still have a problem setting down a perfectly square cut line from the factory edge. It could be that the referenced factory edge is not parallel.

After reading these excellent posts, I will make a t-square using the guide rail. I will get one of those extension connector bars and fix it to an aluminum bar that will set flush against the edge while attached under the edge guide. This will hopefully prevent any errors resulting from pencil thickness or deviation. I will also check the factory edge for squareness.

I will share my results in a future post. Thank you all!


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## S4S

Luberjosks'... best Thread of the Week winner


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## jinkyjock

Hi Guys,
just came across this post as I have been busy the last couple of days.
I have a tablesaw but don't have the capacity for a full-length board cut, or the room as my workshop is too small.
I use straight-edges and a circular saw for full rips and can usually cut to within 0.5mm. over the full length.
Couple of points for Richard.
When you are making your rips it is crucial that the board is well supported (through the whole cut) and flat, as any deviations will feed into the fence/straight edge and this could be causing your problem.
Also, if you are 1/32 out over the whole length as you dimension your cabinet sides this will reduce exponentially.
As previous posters have said, at assembly it is then up to you to marry all the front-facing edges correctly and do any "tidying-up" at the back.
The only problem you have is if the cabinet has an internal door and then some light planing may be needed to get an equal gap.
Take extra care when buying your boards so that you have a good edge to work from.
Table-saws are not dangerous, People Are.
P.S. the Geometry lesson was awsesome.


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## Nubsnstubs

Guitch, I never had a fear of table saws, and still don't. I have an extremel respect for them. I also have about 8.75 fingers left, hence the name. If I had the fear, I wouldn't have pursued woodworking as a career.

If a person is going to have a hobby such as woodworking, you need to have GOOD equipment. I've seen and rarely used that junk currently being sold by the big box stores. Now that stuff is scarey. 
Since I got my Unisaw in 92, I rarely use a square to check my cuts, unless I know what I'm cutting is out of square. If it's out, I joint it, and then make my cut. It's also easy for me as I have a Beismeyer fence that allows me to cut 86" between blade and fence. As stated earlier in another reply, , have infeed, outfeed and side support tables. Wax or spray silicone on the surfaces, and any cutting can be done very easily. ............ Jerry (in Tucson)


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