# Woodworkers Against the PBS show "American Woodshop"



## TrmptPlyr

Is it just me, or are there other woodworkers out there who are tired of the "American Woodshop" garbage they show on PBS these days? I've never seen anyone rush through important steps, overlook glaringly obvious mistakes in what he's demonstrating, along with demonstrating ridiculously unsafe shop practices… I think more "New Yankee" would be a far better expenditure of public television funds. For that matter, I'd rather see the likes of Marc Spagnuolo "The Wood Whisperer" on PBS… The crude humor and outstanding craftsmanship of Thomas J. MacDonald from "Rough Cut" is higher quality programming than "American Woodshop." At least the aforementioned have some real talent and a knack for showing the important details of true fine craftsmanship, along with stopping to talk about how to safely and accurately accomplish tricky processes…

I just watched the "American Woodshop" guy butcher a beautiful black walnut slab to create a horribly crafted and poorly designed hall table, on which he sloppily brushed on a horribly inconsistent and Picasso like coat of poly… (seriously, he left about a two inch diameter dry spot on the top, while leaving pools in other areas.)

Come on PBS, if you want public support, you've got to deliver quality programming, and PorterCable/Delta, I'm ashamed of you for providing "promotional consideration" for programming of such poor quality….

:: End of Rant ::

P.S. I think the "American Woodshop" guy would benefit from watching a few episodes of Teenage Woodworker as well…

:: End of End of Rant…. Seriously this time ::


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## a1Jim

Hey Mark
That's being pretty tough on that show and PBS, Good for you I have watched 1/2 half of one show and could not believe they would put this guy on the air. The episode I saw he was making a medicine cabinet with butt joints for the cabinet and pocket screws for the door with terrible miters. I would suggest any of the people you have suggested plus Charles Neil and any of a dozen LJ members that would qualify also.


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## jerryz

Well, I agree 2000% with the both of you, it is an unfortunate waste of time, I did watch a couple of episodes and frankly I don't know what is it that we learn with this guy, most of the "techniques" he demonstrates are done very sloppily.
I will not watch it again.


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## Ottis

Ditto to all said…I watched this show a couple of times when it first came out. The first time I just thought it was "New show Jitters" after a few shows I realized my 14 yr old daughter had better woodworking skills than him.

And to think Norm used to be on HGTV AND PBS…now he is off of HGTV and we get a whole year of reruns on PBS…I sure hope they are not phasing him out or that he is not retiring (If he does I hope they replace him with a GOOD quality woodworker). When HGTV first started it had tons of good woodworking shows….now it is nothing more than another lady's TV network that shows how to decorate their homes.


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## jerryz

Just a quick note on saturday the PBS create channel ran a non stop grilling program I mean c'mon non stop.
A bit much if you ask me


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## TopamaxSurvivor

I haven't seen it in teh Seattle area for a long time. I thought it was a bit below standards when I did.


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## Mely5862

More than the show, I didn't care for his video demonstration of the new Delta Unisaw on Delta's website. Such a wonderfull machine with thousands of hours of research and development reduced to that? A bunch of soundbites and in the field interviews from guys who though sincere and enthusiastic didn't say much. 
Unfortunate. It was an opportunity to hook a new demographic (the internet crew) to their loyal customer base. Missed the mark in my humble opinion.


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## MikeLingenfelter

I liked the American Woodshop in it's early days. I lost interest when he spent most of a season showing them build his new shop. Then it seemed like it was one bandsaw box after another! I watched an episode recently and barely made it through the show. The show really needs a makeover, to compete with what you can find on the internet.


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## PurpLev

it's time like these that I'm glad I don't have a TV… I think there's plenty of good content online as mentioned already. and if anyone wants to be on TV they need to step it up, or people will go elsewhere.


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## tenontim

I don't get the program, or have ever seen it. You seem to have a majority in agreement with you, so now just forward your letter to the offending television station, so they know, and maybe something will be done. I doubt anyone at PBS is a Lumber Jock.


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## dennis

I move that "American Woodshop" get replaced by "American Craftsman" staring our brother Todd!


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## thewoodwhisperer

Thanks for the mention guys. I really appreciate it.

I have a food for thought question. At what point do we stop looking toward TV for our quality niche content? For years now, woodworking programming has taken a backseat to what I like to call the "least common denominator shows". Each year the options are fewer and fewer and if any shows are aired at all, they are in very specific markets, so most of us can't even see them.

With the growth of the internet woodworking community over the past 3-4 years, I am having less and less of a need or desire for woodworking programming on my television. I am even having trouble deciding what advantages it might offer me. Its less flexible and I have to watch what they want to show me. Ok, so the picture is really big…. lol. But there are many ways to get your favorite web videos onto your television for viewing. More and more though, I find myself watching all my videos right at the computer or on my iPhone. Ain't technology great?

So why watch the chosen few that PBS deems worthy of being on television (with all due respect to Scott Phillips and Norm), when I can watch guys like Charles Neal, Tommy, Todd, Matt V, Shannon, Denis, and numerous other "real" LumberJocks doing real projects, fixing real mistakes. Add to that the option to actually speak with these people about their craft in real time, and you've got TV beat hands down.

So I may be a little biased in my opinions, for obvious reasons. But I am a consumer of this stuff just like you guys. And in my house, the TV is for watching movies and cooking shows ( I love BBQ shows! lol). Everything else is on the computer or a portable media device. The whole thing became a lot less frustrating when I stopped expecting the TV to give me something it clearly wasn't interested in providing.


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## teenagewoodworker

ive watched one or two of them on the woodworking channel and i have to agree. i dont like to beat down on people but when he showed the workbench being build he just glued all the pieces together and then "flattened" it with a belt sander and Ros…. thats not flat at all. then all of the biscuits and but joints and i havent watched a show since.


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## reggiek

Luckily, I don't have time to pay attention to much on tv.

Like you guys though, I think it is criminal when they put on a show that is poorly researched or the technical information is not up to par. Shame on them for using public money to make a show that is so "inaccurate." I usually support such channels as I would rather see the arts, sciences or a good "how to show" then some inane weekly serio-comic mush with poor writing and more commercials then content. I think my time is better spent in my shop or on the internet…frankly….tv sucks! My oldpa used to say that tv junk kills your imagination and causes brain damage….I think this may show why he said it!!


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## MikeLingenfelter

Marc,

I think you have good point, and think more people are looking to get their information where and when they want it. As for TV there really is only 1 woodworking show I still watch and that's Roy Underhill. Even Roy's show suffers from the TV format. You just can't squeeze enough good information into a 20 window.

I really get the vast amount of my woodworking information/entertainment from the Internet. My RSS reader is so full of sites, it's hard to even keep up. I guess that is a good problem to have. I watch/listen to my favorite Podcasts during my commute. Luckily I ride a bus, so I have no problem watching videos .

I think video/audio programs delivered over the Internet is the wave of the future. The format allows the "host" to totally explore a topic, without the limitations of the TV format. Imagine if Tommy approached his Bombay Secretary series in the "traditional" TV format. It would have been butchered up into something not even recognizable. This New Media revolution has so many possibilities, I look forward to what is coming over the next couple of years. It should be earth shattering!


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## SCOTSMAN

We used to get Norm plus another couple of no-users here in the UK.I liked Norm but they stopped it seemingly he wanted too much money for his half hour show spread out with ads ads and more long ads 6 or seven minutes at a time.Then we got about four years of repeats then it stopped, so we have rubbish and nothing take your pick. I would like to see Norm come back in the UK with some new stuff sorry I can talk for those I don't know. Best of LOve your brother Alistair


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## hairy

I watch it when I can. I would watch Homer Simpson if he had a woodworking show. For me, a good day woodworking is when I still have all my fingers. I don't expect to learn from Scott, or Norm or David Marks or Roy or anyone else. It's entertainment.It's inspiration. It's a deviation from the world. To me , the same rules apply to Scott as they do to porn or rap music or whatever--don't watch if you don't like it. The dude is inspiring, even if he has his own way of doing things. This is his 14th season I believe.


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## Brian024

The first episode of the "American Workshop" I watched was also the last. I can't remember what it was called he built but it was a desk, I think Norm built one similar to it. I couldn't believe how unsafe he is, atleast to me he was unsafe. I don't know if he was rushing or the producer's were but it seemed like the whole show was rushed. When he used his table saw, he didn't even let it come up to speed before sliding the piece into it.


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## Rustic

most ofwhat I have seen from the American Woodshop has been decent. I have been to a few of his public appearances and he seems really down to earth and I personally didn't see any mistakes. I like him and the show.


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## Ottis

I agree with what *Marc *says….90% of my woodworking video/watching is off off the net. But like *hairy* said…if Homer Simpson had a show…I would probably watch it. As long as it was half way good. I still watch Norm and the New Yankee Workshop when ever I have the time…and for several reasons…While I do not expect to learn how to make what ever he is making in a 30 min show…I do find it entertaining…and many times I do pick up a new idea for joints, a jig etc.

So while many of us do use the web for woodworking videos….there are many who only have the TV…or may be exposed to woodworking for the first time by New Yankee workshop…or the "American Wood shop" and while Norm may not be able to show everything in a 30 min show..he at least does quality work AND urges safety…..I can not say the same for "American Wood shop"


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## thiel

I'm all for Norm anointing Marc Spagnuolo as his heir and successor.  Seriously Marc, I'm just a lurker on your site and podcasts and you've taught me a zillion things; there are probably hundreds of people like me whose lives you've changed and you have never even heard from them!

As for the American Woodshop, there are two things I like about it:
1) He DOES demonstrate that it's possible to bang something out quickly which is functional.
2) He makes me feel like master woodworker, even though I know I have no idea what I'm doing!

And now, since I have nothing else nice to say….

(crickets)

-David


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## Jason34

Ditto thiel about Marc. I was exposed to woodworking through Norm, but have learned mostly from Marc.

I have not seen "American Woodshop", but I agree with hairy about "entertainment". If the show entertains and inspires I see little fault in it. That little fault being what I'm hearing about his safety practices.


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## boboswin

Most of what I want is available on DVD format or soon will be.
If I am stuck with a problem I can come here or a similar venue.
Let's face it , this is somewhat of a vertical market and TV distributors are looking for the most eyeballs they can gather.
Last month I paid about 90 bucks for television and it was , at best, marginal entertainment punctuated with outrageous commercial advertising.
For the 90 X 12 = $840.00 I can well afford to buy more suitable entertainment.

p.s. I bought a pass to the YMCA for $150.00 for the year. <g>

To hell with mediocre TV!
Bob


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## rhett

News media presents fake news, reality shows are scripted and woodworking programs give crappy advice. Welcome to television entertainment. Real info must be searched out. Thank goodness for the internet.


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## Newton

It seems that PBS takes longer and longer pledge breaks then they put on crap like American Woodshop!


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## cabinetmaster

I too have to agree with Marc. There is more info on the internet now and you really don't need the TV for your woodworking needs. I watched that show a couple of times and was not impressed. I quit watching it altogether. I miss Norm and The New Yankee Workshop. Seems I can never find it on in our area any more.


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## Pairodocs

Norm got me started, and I have used him as my primary teacher. I have also watched many other woodworking shows, and have always picked something up. No doubt about it, Norm is the best teacher on TV, but I fear that he's going to cash it in here pretty soon. I have, as a result, begun to use my iPod, and the internet for my woodworking education. Most of the shows on TV are pretty poor. I like David Marks, but he is more artistic, and I can't even draw a stick man, so I probably won't be making any of his projects soon. Ya, I think we are at the end of the line for quality woodworking educational tv. Guys like Norm don't come around that often.


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## thequietscotsman

is there any way to start a new thread with the websites and podcasts that we do like?


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## thewoodwhisperer

Not sure if this will help quietscotsman, but we have a pretty comprehensive list of blogs and podcasts over at The Wood Whisperer Network.

I made the site because my links page was getting completely out of hand.


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## Brad_Nailor

I have never seen the show, but I enjoy watching these types of shows, more for ideas and entertainment not for hard information and in depth demonstration of complicated joinery techniques. I agree with Marc, the real meat of wood working content seems to be on the internet, but before the 'net was born us old timers had to learn by reading, by doing, or if you were lucky enough, being taught by a seasoned professional. I like NYW for that reason, because Norm goes into a fair amount of detail. I also like This Old House, and Ask This Old House. They are a little more "fluffy" than NYW, but still offer a decent amount of pertinent information and demonstration of techniques, although they gloss over things a little due to trying to shove massive amounts of content into a 30 minute show!


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## KentS

I've seen part of the show twice. I thought it was very lacking in content and execution (Now there's a thought!--the show, not the host) It seriously made me wonder if I should pursue doing my own show. I think I should call it "The Old *********************************** Workshop" (Sorry Norm)

Marc brought up some great points about internet. That's where I get most of my information about technique, desighn, etc. I am not home enough to catch most of the TV shows.


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## longgone

I have never watched a TV woodworking show. The internet and a slew of good woodworking magazines is sufficient for me. Besides, an hour in front of the TV is an hour wasted that could be better spent in my limited shop time.


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## Roscoe

I stopped watching when he did a whole bunch of shows about building his new house. He probably got it paid for by the show. It always seems to me like I'm watching seseme street or something the way he talks like he is speaking to a four year old


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## davidroberts

NYW is a class act. Much credit should be given to Russell Morash. I have always marveled at the high production quality of the NYW and the way Norm comports himself. Norm set the bar. The camera shots, lighting and script are all professional. What PBS use to be. In a 30 minute show, Norm demonstrates 90 percent of the major steps used to build whatever is on his mind, even down to the finish. Forget about 200 hand cut dovetails. It's just good solid furniture and what nots built with really cool equipment. Here's this unassuming man, in the iconic plaid shirt, who is now the unequalled legend in this obtuse world of woodworking, introducing equipment I had never heard of.

Is there anything woodworking or wood related Norm doesn't know. I think not. You can just smell the sawdust and glue when Norm gets busy. There are hundreds of thousands of men and women across America who anticipate with relish that brief 30 minute Sunday afternoon interlude with Norm. His projects are well thought out, practical and doable. Only recently has he started using commerical type equipment. But heck, there are a lot of woodworkers out there today with the funds to afford a cabinet saw, 17 inch bandsaw, 8 inch jointer, 15 inch planer and a 36 inch sanders. I'd dare say Norm is the biggest non salesman for the Delta and Porter Cable hobby market. More than not, the average American woodworker, making sawdust in his garage, whatever his skill level or equipment, will give at least some credit to Norm for influencing their involvement with woodworking. Norm was doing NYW episodes when many out there in LJ land were still in grade school.

Times they are a changing. Who can blame Norm for wanting to slow down and smell the roses. I'm sure that I'm not the only one a bit disappointed that Norm laid off this season. And yes I do feel cheated (hehe). How dare he leave such a void in my Sunday afternoon rendezvous. I'm sure there are some young turks out there waiting in the wings. Whoever takes the reins to become the next Great American Woodworker will have some mighty big work boots to fill. It's usually someone you don't suspect, or have even heard of. It probably helped that NYW followed TOH, and Norm was already popular.

What Scott Phillips needs to do is shelve his ego and hire a good director and producer. Chill out, slow down, and do some quality work.


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## MikeGager

weird, i like the show. only seen some episodes online never on tv i think it was season 15 episodes that i got to watch

heres the link

http://www.wbgu.org/americanwoodshop/Episodes/season15/index.html


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## JoeLyddon

Mark D.,

Yes… and he performs all of that miraclously in ONLY 26 minutes TOO… you forgot that part!
TOO fast to be safe… right?

He covers the material enough to give us the "idea" of what he's doing or will do.

Sheesh…

... and all he needs to screw pocket screws is his FINGERs too… Right?!

*I'm happy he's there… along with all the rest.*


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## johnpoolesc

only good thing about 'american woodshop" is it reminds me i have almost 100 hours of norm backup. i like norm, not because i learn but because he inspired a generation of woodworkers..

and your right about HGTV, removed it from my channel scan and i one time i watched it more then any other channel.


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## boboswin

I'm pretty much with Joe Lyddon.

Any group that takes the time to make visual tutorials for woodworking is O.K. in my book.

*We must learn to embrace our good fortune and try to stop being too judgemental.*

Bob


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## thiel

The Horror. The horror.

I am watching the show RIGHT NOW. A few minutes ago I saw him tug at the height adjustment wheel of the planer while a board was only halfway through.

But right now… You're not gonna believe this: He just held up two pieces of cherry he'd cut which were going to be the left and right sides of a desk top. Then, after explaining the cut he's going to make on BOTH pieces, he tosses one of them (yes, he THROWS it!) on the floor so he has a hand free to turn on the tablesaw. You can hear the piece hit the floor with a loud CLONK!

Oh no. He's just about to cut down a piece of 24" wide bubinga (not a glue up!) If this wasn't tivo I'd be calling the cops right now!


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## SuperDave02

Well…....look at the bright side, you were entertained for 30 minutes


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## thiel

30 minutes? No way. I had to close my eyes for some parts


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## interpim

I have sworn off network television altogether. I bought a cheap computer that I hooked up to my television, and I can watch pretty much whatever I want, when I want using that. No $100 cable bill, no dealing with crappy show lineups. All I need is a fast internet connection now that my phone goes through the internet too.


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## johnnymo

wow. i thought i was the only one getting tired of those pbs shows 
a lot of times i don't have the time to sit and watch a show when the networks want me to. Don't get me wrong i like to watch Norm (when I'm home at 5:30 on a saturday). Then I saw the american woodshop and I thought "cool…another woodworking show", then the show started…well, he does like to rush his projects! Especially when it comes to the finishing! For me, the best thing to do is search the web for instructional videos. Tell you what, I learned a lot from the woodwhisperer website. He has a lot of great videos to learn from. Now I'm learning more from this (lumberjocks) website. Now I don't have to be at home at a certain time to learn something new about woodworking.


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## clieb91

Got to admit I agree witht he number here that mentioned this show as entertainment more then anything. I too have cringed at some of the stuff he has done, had no idea he actually redid his shop as I just recently found the show.. based on the way it looks around him I would say he should do it again. My shop does not even look that cluttered. 
I much prefer "New Yankee" or "Woodsmith Shop". 
I won't even get started on HGTV and DIY is heading downhill as well these days.

CtL


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## RetiredCoastie

I agree. If they're going to show me how to do something they should do it correctly. What I don't understand is the why aren't there more woodworking shows on and not just on Saturdays. There must be a hundred sewing and quilting shows on during the week, where are the wood workers? Since I switched to Com-cast a few years back I haven't seen DIY which had a few good shows on during the week. Have they started slipping as well? HGTV only has interior decorators that in my opinion don't know squat about what looks good and very little woodworking.


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## JasonIndy

I actually enjoy the show. It does make me feel better reading everybody's comments, because the first time I watched the show I saw him cross-cutting with his piece flush against his rip fence. I've always thought NEVER to cross-cut with your work up against the rip fence, but I figured he knew what he was doing. I'm glad somebody else out there agrees with me on those "WTF?" moments on the show. That having been said, it is just a TV show, and I still really enjoy watching it from time to time.

However, while we're venting, I'll share what gets under my skin. HGTV. Now my wife thinks that we redo the bathroom and put new cabinets and flooring in the kitchen in a single weekend. I suppose it's just a personal pet peeve, but it bothers me that they edit out the part where you have to squeeze a 48" wide bath tub into a 47" wide opening. Or you unscrew an old piece of plumbing and it breaks off in the wall, so now you have to rip out all the new drywall you just put up. Or you go to put in ONE more outlet upstairs and end up having to rewire half your house. Just once I'd like to hear a carpenter on one of those shows drop an f-bomb under his breath. Just once. Compared to HGTV, I really like the NYW guy…


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## Julian

Jason, I am with you on those shows. They make the average homeowner just dangerous enough to attempt the jobs that are usually best left to us professionals. I love watching those shows and pointing out the obvious flaws in their execution of the various home remodeling shows. My wife is always telling me that I should have my own show, and I tell her that it wouldn't work because I am not a minority, nor do I have an english/new zealand accent.


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## mattg

I watch Scott Phillips only because our local PBS affiliate only shows Norm on Sunday high noon. Since DIY refuses to pay David Marks for any more brilliance, there is absolutely nothing else to watch, woodworkingly speaking!


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## Walnut_Weasel

If we want to talk about entertainment - reading this forum is it!!

I have not watched any wood working show on TV since DIY yanked David Marks off the air. Every time I catch Norm on it is a re-run and to be honest, a lot of his projects don't strike a chord with me. I watch TV in general so little that I did not even realize PBS had another wood working show! Several of the shows on TV that I do like, are re-played later on the net which is where I end up watching it…so I guess you could say I completely agree with Marc's point of view.

Needless to say if it were up to me, Marc, Matt, Teenagewoodworker, and others would be locked in their shops at all times to crank out more great stuff that teaches a newbie like myself what to do! Keep up the great work guys!


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## boboswin

Have any of you sent your compaint to HGTV or you cable company?

Maybe they think they are doing a good job.

Bpb


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## Karson

Of all the TV that I've watched I've never sat through any of the TV wood working shows. I don't know if its me or not, but I'll watch a DVD on a process that I want to learn, but not sit through making a Highboy in 30 minutes minus commercials.


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## juniorjock

Bob #2, did I miss something? What does HGTV have to do with PBS?

Edit. I see now. Never mind…........


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## WoodSparky

Hey, don't you think your being a little rough on the guy. OK maybe it's like watching Mr Rodgers. "This is a bandsaw" Can you say bandsaw? That's nice I knew you could. Involving one's inexperienced wife into a show can be painful. How about a scantly clad babe? that would keep my attention. On a lighter note, he does include alot of turned pieces into his projects. I am a advent wood turner, and rarely turned pieces for my cabinet/furniture projects. After watching his show, I am going to make a point of it.
There were projects and technics that I didn't like, and some I did. Take the good leave the bad. I hope the show will continue on to teach the novice and inspire the advanced.


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## davidmicraig

On the other hand, it kind of makes me feel good to know that my current woodworking skills are enough to get me my own television show


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## pisdoff

Woodsparky, therein lies the problem.

'I hope the show will continue on to teach the novice and inspire the advanced.'

Teaching the novice poor craftsmanship is one thing and somewhat subjective; teaching unsafe habits to the uninitiated is not a good thing.

"It must be the right way to do it, it's on tv'' can become about the scariest sentence in the world if/when things go wrong, horribly wrong. 
While many of you give your blessing to the internet, there is plenty on there to give you the heebie jeebies also. There's a guy on Youtube cutting open a coconut freehand on a tablesaw, and this passes for entertainment at the least, 'something you should try at home' at the worst end of the spectrum. I shudder when I think of how many kids see this, say something like 'cool', and proceed to the hospital without passing go or collecting $200 to get 15-30 stitches or so. And those might be the lucky ones!


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## Northerner

you guys are lucky you even have woodworking shows!
im in south dakota and all i can find on pbs is new yankee and woodsmith shop
and a couple home improvement shows but thats it. i wish i had the chance of
watching even a bad show, at least it shows some sawdust flyin!


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## Jim Jakosh

Who's got time to watch TV anyway?


> ?


 I have too many projects waiting for me in the shop.It is better to get a new tool and practice with it in your shop than watching the Boob Tube. We have 800+ channels now and I only watch the news and Discovery Channel when I'm worn out from doing woodworking.

After all that…....
I wonder if they can determine the difference from pneumonia and sawdust in the lungs of woodworkers??

...............................Jim


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## Phishead

I wish I found this thread 152 days ago when it was originally posted. Scott Philliips is a douche-bag. I watch the show weekly just so I can make fun of him. I love how he uses spray-on poly on every project the second he puts the last pocket screw in. He's actually based right around the corner from me and he come's to our local PBS station every so often when they have an event. I believe he also has a line of clamps they sell at Woodcraft. I can't believe he gets sponsors. He should be missing most of his fingers by now.


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## bunkie

In my area, The American Woodshop is on when I'm at work. I have tried, repeatedly, to record the show on my DVR. No matter how I try, it never gets recorded. Is my DVR trying to tell me something?

In a larger context, it seem that cable channels all follow the same arc: they start out great with interesting content, then they get dumber and dumber. My favorite example is A&E (Arts & Entertainment) shows nothing but real-life murders, something that is certainly not my idea of either "art" or "entertainment".

My biggest pet peeve about the decorating shows is when one of these "professionals" is using spray paint. It's a wonder they manage to get any kind of even finish while wildly moving the can in a random pattern.


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## BlankMan

Even though I think the guy is sloppy and rushes through a lot and I think edits out things when they don't come out just right it still is one of the only woodworking shows left and I think this is a little harsh. Would we do this to a fellow LJ? So why do it to him?

I can see the point that maybe you maybe don't want to teach people to do things the way he does them, and there's a lot I wouldn't do his way, but it still may be enough for the bug to bite some people. And hopefully not take what he does and how he does it as gospel and do more research on how to do things correctly.

I recently watched the show where he turned and made a coat rack. When he went to attach the finniel (how do you spell that?) the way he drilled the hole in both pieces to use a double ended threaded screw, no way would that be centered and concentric. When he screwed it together they cut away, go figure. But when it was standing up you saw it and it didn't look good to me. Well, the whole coat rack didn't look good to me.

He does seem to take a "good enough" attitude, which for me ain't good enough.


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## 33706

Ok… but if I may say, the show called "Router Workshop" is even worse, in my opinion. Seems like father-and-son hosts have a chip on their shoulders toward each other. Though I own 4 routers, it's the tool I like least and only use them as a last resort. If I had a full-time assistant dedicated to making those impractical fixtures that they're always using, well maybe. What next, a family workshop show with the dysfunctionality of "American Chopper"? Actually, that might be a scream!!


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## BlankMan

I used to like Router Workshop. Not from a woodworking standpoint, it was entertaining. They looked for ways to do everything with a router to the extreme, when it would sometimes be easier some other way. I wouldn't build what they built the way they built it, but like I said it was entertaining, humorous at times.

But, I find the router one of the most versatile tools in the shop and use mine a lot. A real lot, probably on every project, and if I have to make a template, so be it, it adds to the accuracy and ease of completing the task. Probably why I have 9 of 'em.


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## Dennisgrosen

lucky jock´s and jockette´s here in Denmark I have only seen exstremme home makeover and monster hause and some danish homerenovation´s and there have been a cuple of poor diy program´s as well they were qiet entertaining 
but I have to say it was under a 7 month signets periode I get hooked on surging the internet that I rely understand why I am were I am today after I have been watching woodwispershow with marc, the rough cut show with T-chiesel, Charlesniel (I was amazed how they teach so inspiring , dedicated and safely) and some editors on different woodmagesins and a tons off other homepages incl youtube at last but one off the best here on Lumberjock it´s good to see that some people bee inspiring the safe way so other´s (like me) with ten thum´s and are neewbee´s can learn so much and get in to the trade the best safest way

thank you all

Dennis


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## Phishead

Poopiekat and Blankman: I forgot about the Router Workshop! They don't run it here anymore. I'm surprised they didn't cut the trees and mill them into lumber with the router. And what was with the lump on that guys head??? If I was bald with a golfball-sized lump on the top of my head,and was going to have it face the camera for the entire show, I would put a hat on.


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## Tim_456

i watch Norm to learn and to be entertained. I enjoy his smooth style as much as the content that I learn. To be honest, I just enjoy watching him work even if I learn nothing. But that's where it ends with the woodworking shows. Everyone else is a rush job and just annoys me. So i'm turning to the web for my content. Thanks to the woodwhisperer for the list of links, i'll be bookmarking them and hitting them up. Being able to stop and rewind and will is nice  But I'll still be watching Norm at lunch time on Saturdays while they keep that running


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## BlankMan

Tony, yeah, I haven't seen one in a long time. I wish PBS would re-air that turning show I remember watching, now that I bought a lathe. Can't remember its name though.


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## 33706

Lol, Tony!! I was afraid to mention the lump on that guy's head!! I was afraid of getting flamed for it big-time if I did, and sadly I used to stare at it rather than pay attention to what they were doing…heh why didn't they just rout it off with a sterilized flush-cutter?


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## dbhost

I have never seen that show, nor heard of it. Sounds like I am better off for it…

I tend to agree with Marc on this though. There are some show I catch on TV, but they are getting fewer and fewer. Simply put, TV is too inflexible for me. I have a lot of the last year of New Yankee Workshop on my DVR, and can pick and chose through the episodes, but on a regular broadcast schedule, why would I wait 6 months to a year to watch a PBS show on proper jointer use for example, when I can go here, or Youtube, or Marc's site and watch a video RIGHT now, with more information, better hands on feel, and more often than not, the originator of the content is more accessible. If I don't understand something, usually I can email the guy (or gal) that made the video and ask… Hey what about blah…?

Through using the various online resources, I have come further with my woodworking skills, in a much shorter period of time than I would have by simply watching the PBS shows and reading the various books… I am sure however, that hands on classes would still be best…

And the woodworking shows DO have a place on TV, they do serve a purpose. I think most would agree that Norm Abrams is responsible for inspiring an army of new woodworkers to pick up the craft…


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## Northerner

poopiekat= why didn't they just rout it off with a sterilized flush-cutter?

LOLOLOLOL


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## croessler

Folks,

I would like to say one thing on this subject; it's so very easy for any of us to pile on, so to speak. I can't help but applaud anyone that is trying to educate others. Especially when the topic is my favorite hobby. Not one of us on the face of the earth is perfect, least of all me. I was fortunate enough to have dinner with Scott a couple of weeks ago and must say he his a good man with a passion for woodworking that will try help just about anyone.

Stepping off the soap box now….


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## DustyB

Dinner with Scott Phillips? Really? I wouldn't share a dinner table in a soup kitchen with that guy. Did he bring his dogs? Spray your food with spray-on poly? Though I agree none of us are perfect, I can't agree that anything on his show is educational…its a woodworker's horror movie. I would rather watch Scott Phillips run kittens through the bandsaw- than watch him absolutely desecrate another beautiful piece of hardwood. I have an idea for the season finale of "The American Woodshop"...Burn it to the ground. 
_I'm not stepping off the soap box, because I never stood on it- for fear that it was built by Scott Phillips…_


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## SOLTC

Chris,
I agree with you completely. Scott always seemed like a person I'd like to meet in person.
I did learn from his show.

My favorite woodworking shows are NYW and Woodsmith Shop.
Unfortunately, my local PBS Create station (WLIW) has replaced Woodsmith Shop for the present 
with Woodwright Shop. 
Ray Underhill is a little too enthusiastic for me.

Joe


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## WoodSparky

Ou…..........ch DustyB , 
Scott must of hit a raw nerve. 
Just too funny.


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## BlankMan

poopiekat that was sick but I'm still laughing…


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## Phishead

The Woodsmith Shop has a few strange dudes on it also. Scott Phillips may be a great guy, but he shouldn't have his own show. As far as Roy Underhill, he's more of a craftsman than Scott Phillips will ever be and can probably beat him in an arm wrestling match with only his little finger. He's the only host I've seen with exposed stitches on his hands.


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## TrmptPlyr

In a match between Scott Phillips and Roy Underhill, my money's on Chuck Norris…

In all seriousness though there are some great replies here.. I can't believe this thread is still going after three months… Glad I'm not alone in my dislike for Scott Phillip's "How not to woodwork" show…


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## PeteMoss

As someone mentioned earlier in the thread, the thing I don't like about most of these shows are the cutaways. Not belittling Norm but in The New Yankee Workshop he will usually tell you what he is going to do, they will show him making a cut with his dado blade, then they switch to him hamering and brad nailing the pieces together. You never actually see how to woodwork. That is where I have to give The Router Workshop guys credit. They go through most all of the tool setup and bit changes, etc. on camera with no cutaways. That's why they talk so fast I think. While I don't think everything should be done with one tool just for the sake of using one tool, I do think that their show was educational if you wanted to learn about router work.


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## roman

In all my years I have yet to see a single program on the New Yankee Workshop or any other wood working show but I sometimes watch the "Do It Yourself" shows and quite enjoy seeing the seasoned expert give advice and demonstrate how its done like

spraying expandable foam with the can right side up instead of upside down

drilling a hole for water and drain for the dishwasher from the dishwasher side and BLOWING out the inside of the sink cabinet

building kickplates with 2×6

gluing down granite directly to the cabinet

and the constant barage of hand crafted "HIGH END CABINETRY" made from 100% CNC, all custom fit by a program called 20/20


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## Kristoffer

I was thinking about starting a similar thread before I ran into this one. The woodworking shows that we have to choose from are pretty slim, and I don't really find most of them too informative. AND I'M A BEGINNER! I"m not a fan of American Woodshop and another "woodworking" show that I was looking foward to watching one Sat. morning was doing blacksmith work the entire show.
I used to get excited about DIY's Nailed at Nine on Friday night. To be able to kick back and relax while watching Woodworks w/ David Marks, New Yankee Workshop w/ Norm and the other show with the two brothers. Well, all of that is gone now. But I guess that it's all for the best, right? I mean…. If the housewives didn't get what they were looking for out of the other nine billion kitchen and bathroom renovation/decorating shows per week with the hack built, half-assed, thrown together slop, now they've got another hour and a half to two hours to find something that might fit their taste.


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## juniorjock

Has anyone watched "Holmes on Homes"? I think it is on HGTV. It's not really a woodworking show, but more on home construction (re-done after a contractor has screwed the job up). This guy (Mike Holmes) knows what he's doing and he explains things in a way that a regular homeowner can understand. Even if you're not doing the improvements yourself, you'll know what to keep any eye out for when you're scoping out your contractor who is doing the job.


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## Northerner

i watch mike every week and i love the show. why we cant have more contractors like him?
i wish he had a part in the show where the cameras would follow him while he goes and tracks
down the previous morons that did all the crap work on these homes and shame them into giving
back the money, or letting others know who they are or help out in court if the owners file suit 
against the bad contractors and mike can testify against them!


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## juniorjock

Good point Northerner. I've wondered what all we're missing after Mike and his crew gets done with a job.


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## BlankMan

I've been watching Homes for years, started back when it was only half hour episodes. It would be nice if all contractors were like that, unfortunately he's pretty much the exception to the rule. I think they should put up a Wall Of Shame page on their web site listing all the charlatans so others know not to hire them. But that probably lead to lawsuits and even if they won, time consuming and costly.


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## roman

I think Mike Holmes is doing a good job and pointing the construction inspection code in a better direction but

dont limit shoddy workmanshiop solely onto the laps of shoodyshady contractors because the homes get inspected by government hired "inspectors" who often inspect a home and give it the "thumbs up" when it should have been "thumbs down". Maybe if we paid more municiple taxes the municipality could hire more inspectors…....... Certainly everyone is willing to pay more taxes?

saying "good contractors are an exception to the rule" is BS. For every house that fails the grade there might be 4 homes that far surpass the grade, but Holmes isnt going to show those ones because what would the point be? There are plenty of excellent general contractors who surround themselves with excellent sub contractors (a general contractor is only as good as the sum of his/her trades).

The network that hosts "Holmes on Homes" is somewhat hypicritical in that on one hand they are screaming "#[email protected] tradesman" and on the other hand encouraging "Do it Yourself". Watch the TV ad's. Only God knows how many home owners create "nightmares" for the oncoming purchaser of their home.

And then there are the shows where a real estate agent comes in and voices their expert opinion, and no dis-Respect but there are also designers who get involved …..like the show "Restaurant Makeover"............Igor is always so pleased with the "YOU DIDNT THINK IT THROUGH" designer!

cities want their building permit money, and their lot $$$$ levies…............so they issue a building permit. Maybe they should only issue building permits to those who can place a "BOND", meaning you deposit the value of the job, into a third parties hand, so that in the event you screw up….....no one gets screwed. Betcha if they did, the building/construction/reno business and the economy, would crawl to a halt.

I just wish that life was all black and white…......but its not, theres a lot of grey in it.


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## WoodSparky

It is easy to be a Monday morning quaterback, and Holmes does it painfully well.
Yes, there are shoddy contractors, but the also tough customers/ end users. 
The job goes out to bid, 2 are real close, and the 3rd, a lowball. Guess who gets the job.
Another project for TV.


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## roman

its simple to solve what Holmes wants

put out a "BOND", no money for bond, no contract….............finsih contract as per architect and engineers specifications get paid ,get your bond back and everybody wins. If you dont do what the architect and engineers have specified, then the amount it takes to fix it is deducted from the bond. If it was mandatory then my guess is that half the contractors would dissappear, if not more,...... should a mandatory bond be required. It sure as $hit would make my life easier….........................in the end, I think its the only thing making sure that schools, transit systems, hospitals, sidewalks keep working….........because the general contractor has to post a "bond".

The consumer takes a chance, just like the odds in a Poker Game…......$hitty but true. The fact of the matter is, is that most folks including me are frugal if not even cheap and when you live check to mouth…..............options remain limited and the consequences of being cheap and being ripped off, rises proportional to the amount being spent.

I laugh a lot at "Worst handiman".................and "Best handiman"...........funny shows

Maybe some day…...........some rich director will hire me for big bucks, and I can be the next star?


> ?


?


> ?


?


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## roadrunner0925

for my 2 cents, i like marc and i think teenagewoodworker has a great understanding and future. i enjoy marcs cutting board series and taww's sharpening video keep up the good work. i and obviously many others will keep wathcing. thx for your efforts


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## TheDane

I occasionally see American Woodshop as well as several others … I occasionally find them mildly entertaining, but really don't take these shows seriously.

If I am looking for serious info, I turn to guys like Charles Neil, Marc Spagnuolo, and the woodworkers communiity here on LJ's.


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## Uncle_Salty

Used to get the Router Workshop here in the Great Plains! Those guys were ridiculous when it came to using the router! The thing I hated about that show was they never, EVER showed any of the set-up work (you know… rough cutting, edge joining, ripping, planing, crosscutting!) that each piece of wood they used on any of the projects required. In addition, they didn't spend much time discussing safety or the construction of ANY of the jigs they were getting ready to use.

I really like David Marks' show. Too bad I didn't discover it until his last year of production. Started watching Norm in the mid 90's. He inspired me quite a bit, and I have bought several of his tapes/dvd's for use in the classroom. His instruction on many items, including setups and explanations are very beneificial. And he doesn't talk down to the viewer; he simply explains it as it is. Roy Underhill is pretty entertaining, but his methodology isn't very well suited for what I do.

Marc is right about the 'net changing what and when I watch. It is possible to dial up virtually anything any time I want and get what I what. That is the plus. The minus is that you have to filter through some really bad stuff sometimes to get to the good stuff. The problem with using "youtube" subscriptions and the like for your sources is you limit the amount of information you get exposed to.

Marc is very good at what he does. He is tongue in cheek funny, and I really appreciate his depricating sense of humor. My only problem with you Marc, and no offense so take none, is that I get a little overwhelmed with the details. But I do agree with Marc on one little detail: Powermatic, baby!


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## olddutchman

I do partly agree with the post, but I can't help wondering how many people who are scared to start woodworking have gotten the bug through watching. Any one who begins working with wood needs to be helped to get started. I would like to know how many would like to see Router Workshop aired again. Call your PBS station. They are there for you, so put your push on them. There is enough dislike here to change it!


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## surfin2

While were on the bust on Woodworking Show's what about Norm. Do you remember when he started putting dust tape on his makita router, what a joke… anybody that knows thee tools or colors knew what make the router was. Even if you weren't color or tool oriented you could make Makita through the tape. That's when it all started. From then on it went down hill. They slowly force Norm to do away with his favorite tools. I remember when he would not use a chop saw, he favored the radial arm saw. The last being his biscuit cutter. Now he's 100% commercialized. Thanks to Porter Cable/Delta. Norm likes his D handle router, 690 repkaced his Makita. When he uses a router 3 times he uses 3 different models. I know how the show is done so its not like he's saving time by not having to change bits. There's plenty of people on this sites that made his router table [2nd version] so you know what I'm talking about. Those plans are garbage and the video is even worse. That's not the Norm I know or remember. those are the #1 selling plan's of all time. Remember when Norm was for the little guy, show you 3 or 4 different uses for the band saw, buy an assessory and get more out of your machine. if you have the space and the money get a dedicated machine. Remember when he use to come out with a new tool, now its a new machine. Each one costs a hell of alot more than the last.


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## bunkie

Some of the earliest episodes of TNYW show Norm using a ShopSmith. Delta signed on pretty early and the ShopSmith was never seen again.

It became something of a joke as to what ridiculously expensive dedicated machine he would use next. My personal favorites included the pocket screw hole machine and the resaw bandsaw with the 3" blade.

Having said that, it was a great show and I learned an awful lot from being a dedicated viewer.

I've been watching the Woodsmith Shop lately and while it has some good information, there's something about it that just doesn't do it for me. I think it's the fact that it's scripted down to the word and the hosts seem like a single three-headed being.


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## TheDane

As I recall, the duct tape covering the brand names on the tools is something either PBS or WGBH requires … I think they have rules against 'product placement'. I would also think it would remove a possible impediment if they want to sell these shows into syndication after the PBS runs of them are over. A business that sells Bosch tools probably wouldn't want to buy spots in a show that had Delta/Porter-Cable tools prominently displayed. But there is no amount of duct tape that can disguise a Delta Jointer or a Porter-Cable router.

I don't know if NYW is being sold into synidcation or not, but several of Russell Morash's other shows (This Old House, Ask This Old House, etc.) have and probably return some nice profits.

The guys on the Woodsmith Shop are a little stiff, but they are getting better, and the content is pretty good. One of the best video things the folks at Woodmith's parent company (August Home Publishing) offer is their podcasts (http://www.woodworkingonline.com/category/podcast/). I download them and save them for snowy, winter days (pretty much every day this time of year!).


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## pete57

David Marks is the answer guys!! you forgot to mention Bob Villa now he is quite the unit??

I have watched Hometime and when they were building quality homes and a log cabin it was great, Now forget it. I have also watched Norm my whole life as well as Roy. They both brought me wisdow. But I am to busy to watch TV now and there is no more Norm. So maybe we can somehow as a LJ unit let the networks know what we want. Anyone know how to do that? I wouldlike to see a show where the cameras go to the woodwork shops of the world and see how the othe half does stuff, or just keep it in america?


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## surfin2

Does anybody remember the Home Improvement show with a blonde host? She would forget something every time she did something. Go up the ladder with the screwdriver and forget the screw…


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## surfin2

I tried to figure out the idea behind this show? Nobody could be that stupid. 
Even if she was why would they give her a show of her own…


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## davidmicraig

Probably because the producers were hoping the ratings would jump as they hoped there would be 100,000 guys drinking a beer, watching a program, and thinking "Don't you worry missy, I will get that little screw for you…" The show probably went out of vogue because there were a larger quantity of guys and gals saying "Don't forget your tools you stupid broad…" 

Disclaimer for those that don't know me. I have a great respect for women and do not prejudice anyone's capabilities based on sex, religion, ethnic background or the like. So please take my comments in context of the mentality of those I am commenting on and not as a reflection of my own personal views.

David


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## 33706

Surfin',
you must be referring to "*Home Time*" on TLC channel. Yup, it invited the PC's to find ways to express other people's denigrating opinions of women while disavowing ownership of said opinions themselves.


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## RealtorJim

Ummm… I'm not sure I want a TV crew in my workshop. I try to be safe, and yes I am still afraid of the table saw every time I use it (and that has been hundreds if not thousands of times), but….. the chips and dust all over the floor, the blade guard hanging on the wall (at least I think it is on the wall), the lack of a spray booth to properly exhaust the fumes, the "questionable" bandsaw shaping… Wow I could probably go on and on. How about I host a TV show in SOMEBODY ELSES workshop! What to build now…. I've Got It! I'll do a complete season on removing MDF from a box and using random screwdrivers to put it together! It will fit in with their current line-up perfectly.


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## surfin2

Paul Ryan and Amy Matthews started out on a show together?


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## oldschool

Sorry Guy's,
If I insult anyone I apologize, but why do we watch any woodworking show in the first place ? For me its to get new ideas or to learn something. Well there are very few new ideas in woodworking, but there are always different ways to do them. I long ago figured out that you can learn even from something done poorly or in an unsafe manner. I never had to watch someone lose a finger twice to know not to copy his technique. I guess my point is that you can learn even from a hack. I am more offended by seeing a tool abused than a job done in a way that I don't care for. As for the dangerous home owners, they soon find out that it's not as easy as it looks on tv, then I get paid to fix their mistakes. Finally we should all be working to promote woodworking education in our schools. A lot of schools no longer have the funding to teach these skills, what a shame.


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## boboswin

Have we become a nation(s) of critics?
Surely there must be some redeeming virtues to the "how to videos" available.


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## wseand

Wow this is an old topic, how times change in a year. I am looking forward to Tommy Mac's show to come out. As far as I am concerned you should never teach someone the wrong way to do something, but teach safety and the correct way to do it. If you teach someone the wrong way and they try it out, they are ruining their project and can possible hurt themselves. And yes we are all critics in some fashion some more critical than others, I am my own worst critic and they are a lot of great videos out there.


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## RobertGalloway

Maybe I'm all wet but… I came late to David Marks and I could see a whole lot more before getting my fill. Unfortunately, the series ended shortly after I discovered it.

Sincerely,

Robert H. Galloway


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## Planeman

I've been woodworking for over 50 years so there is usually little to learn in these shows for me (except with Roy Underhill). What annoys me is these shows are aimed at the beginning or intermediate woodworker who usually has relatively few power tools and those he does have are Sears and Roebuck-type lightweight tools of limited capacity. The fellows in the shows seems to always use huge industrial power tools of a size and type that the average woodworker doesn't have and will probably never have. They need to show what CAN be done with the average home woodworker's assortment of tools and include hand tools like planes and hand saws. A surprising amount of woodworking can be done with a minimum of tools and be done with accuracy and reasonable speed with just a little knowledge and skill which is what they should teach.

I've always thought someone like Home Depot or Lowes should have a program that spends an afternoon in various peoples shops that use the tools sold at their stores. There are plenty of very skilled woodworkers using home-type power tools and turning out amazing things. Look at this website! And each of those people can show how he or she tackles a project and the tricks and tips they have developed.

Just my two cents.

Planeman


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## jusfine

On a good night, we get 5 channels, one is relatively clear… none of them have had a woodworking show, so I am not sure what I am missing…


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## thewoodwhisperer

I just can't believe that this year old thread isn't dead yet!


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## cranbrook2

I was thinking the same thing ! )


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## canadianchips

Its all entertainment !
If the shows would just be informative, it would be boring and the ratings would be down. Each Program has its own "niche" to capture the audience.
Be like the majority of us, sit back watch the decorators PAINT the real wood, the guy with megaphone build a home and move his bus within a WEEK, The Holmes inspection ripping walls open to see what is inside ?????just take it for what it is.ENTERTAINMENT.
Personally I think it is more fun than watching people EAT WORMS or Jessica learning how to do her laundry.


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## TrmptPlyr

@thewoodwhisperer & @John

I was thinking that about 25 or so posts ago! When I first posted my rant I didn't even expect one response, let alone 109 spanning over a year!

I think it's safe for us to let this thread die… It's time has passed


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## malcolmdotcom

I've watched most of the last 3 seasons of AW because that's all that my local PBS shows. They no longer air NYWS nor Woodsmith Shop (and I like power tools so I just cannot stomach Roy U.). All shows cram too much stuff into 30 minutes, but AW seems very hurried on all accounts. Some observations:

1. He must have ADHD. He jumps around and does things that look really unsafe and jumps topics so quickly that he's hard to follow without a DVR.
2. He loves the bandsaw. Maybe too much.
3. Sometimes, it seems that he just does specials that are not at all about woodworking … like his geothermal heating/cooling system or the stone he had cut for a project top. It's all interesting, I suppose, but I'm MORE interested in woodworking than that stuff.
4. He's obviously into conservation, recycling wood and planting trees. This is good, but he gets a little carried away with it admitting to pulling stuff that is cast off at the side of the road (read: dumpster diving).
5. I think he just likes saying "butternut." 
6. He's got a shop I'd kill for, that's for sure.
7. Some of the projects, I just don't get. I mean he made wonder set of turned legs and a stretcher for a table only to just put a rough slab of wood on it for a top. I just don't get the "artistic" view in that.
8. I'm tired of hearing, "Now look at this …"


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## boboswin

HI Malcom:
I can't be that hard on him. It's tougher than it looks behind that camera.
Sure there's different ways to do things and different solutions to projects but , for me, I take the attitude that there is always something to be learned. ( positive or negative) 
I let it go at that.
I have spent many hours in the wood shop and I am no way near what you could call me a good craftsman.
I keep trying to improve and that's what's important.

Perhaps you should take that time you spend looking for shortcomings on these TV shows and use it in your own workshop.
It sounds like you would be happier.


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## sambo56

I've never seen the show, so I can't comment on it. I have a problem with tv period, too many ads. I have a short attention span if what I'm watching gets interrupted, so I prefer to get my entertainment off the web.

One day, the internet will be infested with as many ads as the television is now. Until that day though, I think the internet is the way to go


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## Gene6666

Marc Spagnuolo, Not just no, but hell no. He do not know anymore about woodworker than my 6 moth old pit bull. He is in it for the money. He is another Bob Vilo (sic). He will end up promoting his self rather than woodworking. HELL NO TO MARK!!!


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## thewoodwhisperer

haha well, I have to say I am honored that you actually signed up for Lumberjocks and made your very first post a negative comment about me. Welcome to community my friend!


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## BrandonW

Haha. He probably just signed up for a new account to remain anonymous-the best kind of critic.

I'm glad you have a good sense of humor about it, Marc.


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## boboswin

Nice shot Gene, what else have you got?
Your spelling is autrocious, what planet are you from?
Show us your work.


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## rivergirl

I don't have a TV so I have no comment on the show quality- however it appears as though you guys should be emailing PBS. Repeatedly.


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## LeeBarker

Whatever happened to Gail O'Rourke? I thought she was being groomed to take over for Norm.


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## TrmptPlyr

Wow, I feel honored that I started a thread 436 days ago that somehow triggered a new member sign-up! Martin, how much do I get for the referral? 

Gene, get some help, you're making some pretty heavy claims against a pretty outstanding woodworker, and an even better podcaster. Marc is someone who has gotten this craft into the minds of people who would not have otherwise had a clue about woodworking. I second the motion that I'd like to see some of your work before you start your mud slinging (even then I wouldn't give your claims any merit)

So what if he's in it for the money, isn't that what most professionals do? There's a reason we're called a capitalist country my friend, and it's not because we have a capital in every state.

My guess is Gene is the nom de plume of the "American Woodshop" guy… lol


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## aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Gene… Perhaps you can show off some of your masterpieces before you go bashing Marc. I've been watching him for over a year and recently joined TWW Guild. Trust me, this guy knows his stuff down to the science of it. Even if you don't care for his furniture styles ( much like I don't care for Norm's style, but respect his skill and watch his show) you have to give him credit for knowing what he's doing.


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## TampaTom

That Marc… and all those Italian woodworkers from Jersey… are hacks…

Oh, wait, that includes me.

Not only is Marc talented, out of all the people I have seen do woodworking on video, he's the most down to earth guy who knows how to use humor to thoroughly explain the steps of a project.

Add to the fact that he has encouraged a number of other woodworkers with talent far exceeding that of a six month old pit bull to get onto the internet and blog about it, and he pretty much rules…

Which rules you out, Gene…


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## thiel

I would like to subscribe to Gene's pitbull's podcasts… they must be incredible woodworkers!

I've learned A LOT from watching Marc… and not just about woodworking. Making a viable business out of your passion, navigating the technology landscape to bring it all online, and constantly increasing the quality of the output is no small feat, and he makes it look easy.

If self promotion means bringing a great resource online, doing things like INVENTING national woodworkers safety week, replying to emails with detailed information, and doing it all with personality and flair, then I say promote away!

He also has the best T-shirt collection I've seen to date. And he likes Star Wars; that alone is enough for me!

(Of course, we all know that Nicole is the secret brains of the operation… Marc is really just on camera eye-candy.)


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## thewoodwhisperer

Can someone please photoshop a shop apron and a saw onto this talented pit bull?









And by the way, thanks for sticking up for me guys. I don't expect everyone to like me or my work, but they should at least get their facts straight and they certainly don't have to be a D*bag about it.


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## SCR0LL3R




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## thewoodwhisperer

YES!!!! haha. Now that's awesome!


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## Jimi_C

I have to agree. As someone who can watch most episodes of Woodsmith shop without cringing too bad, American Woodworker is extremely sub-par. When I saw him start using plywood in his "heirloom" lowboy/tallboy project, that's when I quit going through his archives. The bad thing, as others note, is that a novice would assume that it's perfectly fine to use plywood in something most people would consider an heirloom piece. To me, that's a travesty, especially after watching real pros like Tommy MacDonald and David Marks work.

After watching some episodes, I'd have to suggest he dedicate his show to turning - it seems to be much more his forte than fine furniture.


----------



## North40

Let me just see if I have this straight - you can be a no-talent hack and still make a killing in woodworking as long as you promote yourself instead of the woodworking? I knew there was a flaw in my business model.

@*Gene6666* - I wonder what noble profession you are in that isn't for the money? Unless you don't accept any money for the work you do and can tell the rest of us how to support our families without accepting money for the work we do, you have no business criticizing anyone for making a living.


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## onesheetofmdf

Hehe. I knew lurking around LJ and TWW would entertain me with threads like this one has come back to… I'm in the "keep up the good work Marc" camp. Watching his great videos for suggestions when I'm not using my free time in the shop.


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## Stevinmarin

Well that was bizarre.


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## ShannonRogers

I don't know about Pitbulls but my 4 year old Golden Retriever is a wiz with a chisel. So maybe what Gene is saying isn't an insult after all. Marc you should be honored!


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## surfin2

These shows have there own quirks but they all have the same problem, its called 30 minutes…
They try to squeeze everything in & skip over 2 many important parts or just leave them out…
They all do it… It seems like the home remodeling shows do it to give the home owners ( the ones that don't know the difference between a screw driver & a hammer) enough courage to start the remodeling then when they get to far in over there heads call in the pro's… 
Remember when Norm was for the small guy. showing you how to get the most out of your machine instead of
buying a dedicated machine… That was right after the garage & the Shop Smith…

The cooking shows do the same thing 30 minutes a full course meal…


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## sandflea

I think Gene6666 is of the opinion that this is real woodworking:

















I think I also found an example of his shop time magic in action:









We should all take note and try to emulate this master craftsman.


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## johnnymo

Just checking to see if this thread is still active…yep! It's still active.
It looks like this went from "I hate American Woodshop" to "Let's watch TNYW and TWW!" 
Oh ya. Did you notice that AW is no longer on PBS in Arizona on Saturdays! They put Norm back on. Now I get to record my favorite shows! As for Marc! Well, love his podcasts and love his work. He's very talented. That reminds me…I need to hit his site and buy another coffee mug


----------



## LMcD

Thank you for starting this thread and bringing this into a public forum. At first I thought it was just me, I could seldom finish watching the show. After awhile I was yelling at the TV Set and the guy on it. Tommy Mac takes a little getting used to but this guy is a hack. Not only does he do marginal, (at best) work he has thousands and thousands of dollars of full sized pro tools to work with and STILL does marginal stuff.

**IOWA PBS?



? ARE YOU LISTENING

Click to expand...

?*
*


----------



## Bertha

I think that Wood Whisperer guy should have his own show. He knows his stuff and he's totally relaxed in front of the camera. What more is there really to it?


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## ksSlim

Let's see how long we can keep a post alive! Kinda fun don't ya think?


----------



## thewoodwhisperer

There are only three guarantees in life: death, taxes, and this post coming to the top every six months.


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## dbhost

Okay… Bump….

This thread has gone beyond hilarious…


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## Bertha

^yeah, that guy up there. Why doesn't he step in? I like his relaxed look in front of the camera. I'd watch his show. Go take it! by force if necessary.


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## croessler

I don't know; I think Marc is a trouble maker!


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## Earlextech

Sounds like a lot of sour grapes to me! Scott Phillips makes his living doing a TV show, not woodworking. He therefore has a different agenda than most of you "pure" woodworkers. He loves what he does. You should be so lucky as to be self employed and earning a living and loving what you do!


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## TheDane

Sam is right … and have you seen Scott Philips' house!

-Gerry


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## LeeBarker

I'm not very interested in watching any woodworker on TV.

However, I am glad we have these shows, because they just might introduce someone to the hobby/vocation we all enjoy and he or she might become the next great woodworker, from whom we all could learn.

Kindly,

Lee


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## TheDane

Well said, Lee!

-Gerry


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## TrmptPlyr

"There are only three guarantees in life: death, taxes, and this post coming to the top every six months. "

:-D You crack me up Marc…..

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I can't believe this topic is STILL getting some play… Never in a million years did I think there would be this many people who felt strongly enough about my post to reply to it (and get out shovels to dig it up from the dead topic graveyard)

I am glad that this post has provided some lasting entertainment.


----------



## Dal300

For REAL wood working and DIY skills I think we should all watch Red Green!


----------



## Bothus

I just just pity the new member who finds this post and feels obligated to read the whole thing.

A few of you have suggested Marc should be on TV. In one of his podcasts a while ago he explained that after seeing what David Marks went through the last thing he wants is a TV show (or something to that effect).

I don't blame him, I love the podcasts.


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## Bertha

Cr1, brb googling.


----------



## MarktheWoodButcher

I don't know if somebody else mentioned this earlier, but do PBS a favor and send them your concerns/opinions particularly to the local PBS affiliate that produces the substandard show. PBS has done all of us pretty much good over the years (many multiple decades in my case) and to have the quality of their programing brought down is a shame. Send their program directors links to this thread and any others from other web sites. I've never seen the guy. I can't make a judgment call. But if he is demonstrating dangerous practices with body part eating machines PBS would probably like to know.


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## lcurrent

When David Marks was on I recorded all his shows to DVD when I need a refresher just put one in the player


----------



## SouthpawCA

I totally agree … I only had to watch 1/2 an episode before I realized it was crap. I do watch it now for the comedy value of it all. I remember, as a kid, watching a woodworking show that featured the Shopsmith probably Mark1. It was a live show, as most were back then, on Sundays. Well, sure enough, one day a finger tip got cut off. The show was taken off the air.

I go to YouTube, Wood Whisperer, Matt's Basement Workshop, and others on the net for my inspiration and how-to information. Yes, there is still some crap there, but you can weed that stuff out easily.

WOW, I just realized this post was started over 2 years ago!!! I guess PBS doesn't read LumberJocks.


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## ken_c

I did not read the responses but I totally agree with the OP.


----------



## DaveP

Myself and Lockwatcher spend more time watching woodworking shows he has recorded than our wives would like. Our favorite woodworker is Scott Phillips, bar none. Sometimes its just funny, other times it leaves us scratching our heads. But it always generates lots of discussion. Lots and lots of discussion.

No matter how many times this thread gets revived from the dead (Zombies!!!), I will never forget this response from DustyB:

_DustyB
Dinner with Scott Phillips? Really? I wouldn't share a dinner table in a soup kitchen with that guy. Did he bring his dogs? Spray your food with spray-on poly? Though I agree none of us are perfect, I can't agree that anything on his show is educational…its a woodworker's horror movie. I would rather watch Scott Phillips run kittens through the bandsaw- than watch him absolutely desecrate another beautiful piece of hardwood. I have an idea for the season finale of "The American Woodshop"…Burn it to the ground.
I'm not stepping off the soap box, because I never stood on it- for fear that it was built by Scott Phillips…_

That may be the most complete and succinct criticism of a television show in English, I've ever read.


----------



## newbiewoodworker

The other night actually, I was laying in bed, flipping channels and I came across this "American Woodshop" show. I watched 5minutes of it, and went back to Da Vinci's inquiries… it was just awful.

I Agree with the original rant posted over 2 years ago: There are more talented woodworkers, like Marc, that deserve such a show more so than bloody punters such as whoever is the host of that show.

Full disclosure: I didn't read all 300 responses lol.


----------



## Chipy

I can't even get past the way this Guy talks!!! He can't even say American correctly.If your job is public speaking you better be able to speak.Also the manner in witch he phrases his topics sounds like I am getting a lesson in 3rd grade!!!! *WE WANT NORM ! WE WANT NORM ! WE WANT NORM ! WE WANT NORM !*


----------



## Maverick44spec

I just just pity the new member who finds this post and feels obligated to read the whole thing.

A few of you have suggested Marc should be on TV. In one of his podcasts a while ago he explained that after seeing what David Marks went through the last thing he wants is a TV show (or something to that effect).

I don't blame him, I love the podcasts.

-Jerry Boshear

Ha ha, I made it through the first 30 or so posts before I finally gave up trying to read them all.

I just watched one of the American woodworker's shows on youtube and I have to agree his work is a little sloppy. He was making some kind of keepsake box with a carved lid. I like how he showed us how to use a computer controled carving machine to make the lid. I think it was the Craftsman compucarve. You know, the one that you can get that has been "reconditioned" for about $1500. I can't afford one and I'm pretty sure most people cant afford one either. I guess he was in too big of a hurry to show us how to do it by hand.

I miss Norm, I used to love to watch him work. Mostly due to his attention to detail.


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## ChippinMick

For anyone taking up woodworking, the show is too fast to follow up from start to end. A bit like NYWS, but on "speed" lol. I personally hate the show.
These "Woodworking" shows on PBS must think the "Normal Viewers" have got 1,000's to blow on top spec tools for a "weekend job". Get real, you producers.
Lastly, have you noticed, the tools are always spotless and prestine and floors you could eat your dinner off.


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## Earlextech

Sour grapes.


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## SSMDad

I'm not a fan but apparently enough people don't complain and he still has the sponsors to keep going with the show. It's surprising that he's all over Woodcraft's pages. (one of the few negative things I can say about them). He seems to me to be no more than a weekend diy'er. (the kind that pay tons of $$ for top equipment and just go for it without having a clue as to what they're doing)

As for watching shows in general…I'd rather be out working with the wood than watching someone else do it. Where's the fun in that?


----------



## Delta356

This is still running… WOW…
I like scott, and have been watching him with my gramp's since the show started.
I think he is great woodworker, and has a great show.

All woodworkers have there way of doing things, and each woodworker is different, thats what makes woodworking fun. Theres never a right way woodworking, each person has there way.

Thanks, Michael Frey
Portland, OR

FREY WOODWORKING INC.


----------



## SSMDad

"All woodworkers have there way of doing things, and each woodworker is different, thats what makes woodworking fun. Theres never a right way woodworking, each person has there way."

Well said Michael!


----------



## TheDane

There is a reason the manufacturer of your TV set included an 'off' switch and a channel selector.

Nobody is forcing anybody to watch!

-Gerry


----------



## JoeLyddon

I do not like it as much as I used to… due to some of his Unsafe or Unreal practices that he displays…

But, I watch it anyway… overlooking the bad stuff… and getting as much GOOD from it that I can.

We all know there are more ways to skin a cat than any ONE way…

What I think is comical, at times… Is for him to USE a special machine, jig, or something just for the sake of USING IT to probably get a share of some "action"... instead of doing it the good ole fashioned Time-Tested way! LOL

I still watch it… and probably will continue to watch it… Something is better than Nothing at ALL… LOL


----------



## TheDane

Joe-I suspect he uses some of the tools he does because the sponsors/underwriters of the show want him to.

-Gerry


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## JoeLyddon

... probably… They have to get their Cut too… LOL


----------



## Delta356

(Joe Lyddon) I love Norm, and The New Yankee workshop, but he also used machines just to promote them… They all do, those sponsors are paying there pay check'sssssss

Thanks, Michael Frey
Portland, OR

FREY WOODWORKING INC.


----------



## JoeLyddon

*Delta356:*

That's right… they all do it… Norm… everyone…

You'd see Norm trim Tenons with his fancy Delta Jig one day… and using a Band Saw the next (jig not required)!

Nothing wrong with it… it's part of the business… You just have to be smart enough to recognize the BEST way! LOL


----------



## TheDane

Deke ,,, I just saw that episode.

Somehow, when I think of 'Shaker', pocket screws and plywood just don't come to mind!

-Gerry


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## SSMDad

I'm actually glad I've never seen "Norm." At least I'm not using that as a frame of reference. haha I didn't even know who he was until frequenting here.


----------



## JoeLyddon

SSMDad:

You have missed some really good educational TV shows on Woodworking.

He is the guy that helped me a lot way back when…


----------



## SSMDad

That's what I'm gathering, Joe, from all the talk about him. I don't even know the time period he was on television. I do remember watching the original "Victory Garden" when I was little. haha

Guess I'll just have to settle from learning what I can from all of you here and books.


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## surfin2

Norm made plenty of mistakes, just didn't admit to any of them! Thanks to the magic off TV…

You could see where he screwed up but when they went to the next scene it was fixed…

Well said Gerry, 'off' switch and a channel selector. Nobody is forcing anybody to watch!


----------



## JoeLyddon

Mistakes were made by everyone… some were admitted and some weren't… That's the way the mop flopped… 
Would you have rather NOT seen the Mop Flop? * LOL*

*SSMDAD…* The only thing I can suggest to you is to go to their website,
http://www.newyankee.com/index.php

There is a TV Show about a Chestnut Coffee Table #802 that you can watch… Every project was displayed and built in the same general way as this one…

Study the projects that he Showed Us How to do…

Dig into their website…

Good Luck…


----------



## surfin2

I don't know which way your mop flopped but Norm never *admitted* to *ONE* of his very many *screwups…* Thats the picture everybody paints this guy as *JOE PERFECT…*
Everything he did fit perfect the first time (cut/measurement) every time, talk about Mr. Perfection…
Do you really think that there's such a perfectionist like that out there… 
I understand we all strive to be like that but this is the real world not TV…


----------



## JoeLyddon

Rick,

Most of what's on TV is FAKE and NOT TRUE… I'll bet you watch it anyway…
Do you enjoy watching a bunch of FAKES?

Do you watch them anyway?

I don't know what your Point is…

Nobody said anyone was perfect, etc., etc., etc. ... did they?

I do know that I enjoyed watching Norm, mistakes n all… and I learned from his mistakes, I guess…
I would watch his shows again… and again… if they were shown. That's ME.

You probably would NOT… so be it… How did that Dean Martin song go… Ksarah (sp)... what will be will be…


----------



## surfin2

Its this pedestal that everybody on this post puts Norm on…

You don't see it that way?

It's like he's the Lord Of WoodWorkers…

I enjoyed him best in the garage with his Shop Smith…


----------



## rance

Yeah, every show(including Norms) had/has its faults. There's just some with so many I can't stomach them.

I've wanted to watch Scott for many years but have not been able to find him. We now have Direct TV, still no Scott. So I can't comment on his.


----------



## TrmptPlyr

@rance And yet you just did….


----------



## TrmptPlyr

Also @rance, how many faults do YOU have when you're in the shop… Could you stomach watching yourself?

Everyone knows Norm makes mistakes, he's human, but it's the rate at which mistakes are made, the severity, the level of precision the person is trying to achieve, and what they've contributed to the woodworking community both past and future that sets them on pedestals or not…

Like I said in my original rant, Scott Phillips is a wood butcher, he puts what seems like NO thought into the overall design of his work, he rushes the process, and then practically dumps a can of poly on the surface and mashes it around with a brush and says "And now we see what it looks like finished"... Compare that with Norm who went to places like Colonial Williamsburg, Gustav Sitckley dealers, etc. to actually study the measurements and proportions of the original pieces before taking the idea back to his shop to put his mild spin on it. Norm crafted heirlooms and provided plans to the world to create their own… Scott Phillips? In true rush through it just to make a craft project on TV style brought us "The cross-brace one hour chair" (I sh*t you not… that's on his website) As is this line that almost made me fall out of my chair laughing after thinking about the original episode that prompted me to create this thread, where he butchered a walnut slab… "If you want to build great furniture you have to respect the woods"


----------



## JoeLyddon

Scott & Roy Underhill can be found on PBS "Create" channel on Tue & Thur…

Woodsmith Shop is good too… PBS also…


----------



## tom427cid

Hi all,
While there is very little that I can add to the L O N G list of (IMO) very valid critisisms about shows like dad and number one son do heirloom furniture out of plywood and routers are more versitile than a plane or chisel. I did enjoy Roy Underhill,that was real. The likes of the above are to me the Benny Hill of woodworking. Sorry Benny I did not mean to insult you.
tom


----------



## rance

Mark, I agree with your first two paragraphs above. I've thought I'd like to do some videos but I don't know if I could stand watching them. 

One other factor so many folks miss is what is a show's relatability. So many times that factor flies right out the window.


----------



## JoeLyddon

*When I say TV, I mean to say 100% PBS TV Shows…*

*When I was getting more interested in woodworking: (Two shows were the only ones on!)*

I watched them *EVERY MOMENT I could*... That was all there was! When that is the case & you want to learn something, you watch & learn what you can…

*The New Yankee Work Shop:*

*Norm Abrams was THE MAN *presenting the shows. He showed you the Step by Step process of making the projects… from the beginning to end. I enjoyed all of them… I watched & learned all that I could. I thought Norm did a wonderful job!

Now, I can see an Experienced woodworker, who really doesn't NEED to learn by watching these shows, where they think they are more skilled than the Stars are, would like to test their skills against the TV shows by seeing how many errors they can spot in order to prove, to themselves, that THEY are better, etc. etc. and… later when they show up on forums, etc. like here, seem to remember every error the Stars ever made, talking them Down.

To me, that type of action is uncalled for because you didn't learn anything from them… you knew it all & didn't need their TV shows…. Maybe you were a little jealous of all the money they were making… or something. (???)

I know that I have learned a lot from them… *and I have learned to recognize an error or a better way to do something when I see it.*..* But*, that does not bother me very much… *I tend to let it roll off my back because I appreciate what I have learned from them.*

*The Woodwright's Shop:
Roy Underhill is the KING of Antique hand tools *... You learn a lot of COOL techniques… Joinery… Planing… Turning… COOL projects… all without Power Tools! I just LOVE the shows!

*Then, other shows made the scene… *

*The Router Workshop: * I learned a lot about Routers… *they opened my eyes wide & good! * If it hadn't been for them, I don't know how I would have learned how to work with Routers!

*The American Workshop:*
More to look at… to learn as much as possible… new ideas about projects & how to make them.
... as said, sure they made mistakes now & then, (roll off back) it was nice to have SOMETHING to watch!

*Pacific Workshop:*
A short lived show which was fun to watch… as it turned out, Clive lives only about 15 miles from me in Claremont! Was fun… had some good projects… learned a little more. Sorry it couldn't hang on!

*Woodworkx:*
David Marks put on a very Classy show… for the Intermediate and Advanced woodworker… Had fun watching them anyway… learned some more! Sorry to see it go!

*Rough Cut:*

*... with Tommy Mac! * Some say *"The replacement for NYWS".* (I don't think it is)... I enjoy the shows… but, I don't think I'm learning very much from them… I watch it though.

*I really enjoyed Tommy Mac's video series where he made a Bombay Chest..*. He showed you 100% of what happened… the good, bad, and the UGLY… He would tear-out sections of the project because "It was not right" and he wanted it "Right" without any deviations… I learned right along with him! Was very good! All of the various techniques he used & why were shown… I don't know if it's still on the web… If it is, I highly recommend watching it.

*The Woodturning Woodshop:*
Really good, if you're a turner or want to be a turner… Has it's funny moments… Very good shows!

*The Woodsmith Shop:*
I love it… They build smaller projects… primarily to show various Techniques… They love to teach you Techniques and Tips! Again, I LOVE them!


----------



## Chipy

Mark D. Don't you know your not suppose to have an opinion around here.What is this the USSRLJ? I happen to agree with you I think that show is week! Now lets go shop for some winter cloths cause were both on a train to Siberia!!!!


----------



## NANeanderthal

At least I can stay awake through the American Woodshop (if I can finish the episode.) Norm always just knocked me out cold after about 5 min. Roy's the man and Tommy's show is good. I even like watching the woodsmith shop, but never could get into NYWS or AW, albeit for completely different reasons.


----------



## surfin2

Mark D. Don't you know your not suppose to have an opinion around here.What is this the USSRLJ? 
If you don't agree with the click then your not in the incrowd…

That brings to me The saying opinions are like assh*les every body has one…

This also bringsw the Bessey / Jet parrell camp to mind. Anybody that says bessey is better than Jet either hasn't used a Jet or dosn't want to admitt they are better … 
I started out collecting bessey than I read Jet was rated #1 over bessey…
No place around here sells Jet here so I couldn't compare them, so I made the plunge online, when I used it I can see why there rated #1… My point we have newbies here that are asking for information on what to get, there being misinformed….I stopped posting for that reason…
The one that bothers me the most is I'm just starting out should I buy or make a router table….
The majority say its cheaper to make your own…You missed the part about newbie…
That means they don't have the materials or the tools to make one… Not Rocket Science…

I was surfin the ratings on Router Tables which is what made me come to this site…
In my search I found on NYWS a review Submitted by Angela , from Burbank, CA on 4/6/2008
We are the only Two that every Told the truth about Norn…
I have the plans, I know just where she's coming from… Talk about hitting the nail on the head…
I asked questions & never got answers when someone made one from these plans, I call that ignorant very ignorant…

Customer Rating: Customer Review Rating: 1.0

I had purchased a bench top router table but I quickly out grew that and I wanted to do more so I started looking at various cabinet style tables. I'm the type of person that can draw up my own plans and make whatever it is. I've only purchased one other set of plans. It was for a large tool storage cabinet. It was from Finewoodworking magazine and the plans very good but I never used them because it didn't fit what I needed so I created my own plans. I searched on the web for router cabinets that others have built. This was very useful. Then I saw Norm's plans. I decided to purchase them from Rockler; at the time it was 50 % off for the plans and video. All I can say is I'm glad I didn't pay full price for this. I can see why many have commented that it was challenging to make - these plans are horrible. I don't think the video could have been worse, maybe if it was in black and white. The plans are missing things and in the video he doesn't cover numerous topics he should have covered. Don't get me wrong - the router table is nice it's the plans and video that are useless. It's better to do a search on the web and see what others have made. If you still want to waste your money and purchase this item, be advised in the video Norm uses the following tools: a router table - yes that right, special router bits(1/4" Roundover, Chamfer, T-slot), table saw, dado blade, taper jig, circular saw, jigsaw, drill press, hand drill, Forstner bit, hole saw, brad nailer, spindle sander, belt sander, laminate roller, cabinet clamps, large straight edge clamp, biscuit cutter, and several other misc. items.
Good luck and happy building!

Now do you think a newbie to WW would be able to tackle this…


----------



## TheOldTimer

In my opinion, only two shows worth my time were New Yankee with Norm and David Marx with his show.


----------



## JoeLyddon

surfin2:

*"Mark D. Don't you know your not suppose to have an opinion around here.What is this the USSRLJ? 
If you don't agree with the click then your not in the incrowd…

That brings to me The saying opinions are like assh*les every body has one…"*

If you're talking about my post, I thought it was important to indicate* Why* I had the opinion that I do…
Yep… everyone has one…

*"If you don't agree with the click then your not in the incrowd…"*

What is you basis for that comment? I didn't think there was anything that came close to warrant that comment… What did I miss?


----------



## surfin2

Joe,

Why are you taking this personal…

My point was the way they portrayed Norm as Mr. Perfect…

I understand his measure *twice* cut once but every cut was *once* & it fit *perfect* ...

That makes tongue & grove, lap joints look one cut easy…

Plus the way they hid his mistakes. one *clip* you saw the mistake the next *clip* it was fixed, magic of TV…


----------



## JoeLyddon

Rick,

Well, I post… You post with your comment… Just wondered…

Who is the "they" you're talking about?

Quite honestly, I don't care how many errors Norm made.

I've heard it said that a good woodworker is measured NOT by how perfect he is…
... but how well he fixes his mistakes.

Therefore, by your description of Norm, he was a pretty good woodworker! LOL

He did more GOOD than anything.

Let me ask you, Rick… How long had you been into woodworking when you first saw one of Norms shows?


----------



## parkerdude

Here is my e-mail to my local PBS station about "American Woodshop"...

I was thinking that it must just be my poor opinion of the "American Woodshop" show.

I mean the host drives me nuts with his unbelievable low skill level. I thought it might be jealousy, with his unlimited shop budget. Or perhaps he was pressed for time, with just a half hour show, even with time compression, was causing great liberties, to complete projects in the time available.

Mr. Phillips could have saved thousands of dollars in costs of shop tools, and rather spent those funds on some intermediate woodworking classes.

I've only watched 4 or 5 shows and I have yet to fail to see unsafe and dangerous behaviors. His work shows little regard for standards within woodworking community for workmanship quality and design.

I guess it all boils down to a continuation of declining broadcast quality. I would respect the station more to forego a glaringly flawed woodworking show like the "American Woodshop", then to continue promoting this particular show.

I am really surprised that no-one has been injured following the techniques presented on Scott Phillips' American Woodshop show.

I Googled "American Woodshop rant", the first page yielded long running complaints from woodworking forums all over the country.

I am a member of "Lumberjocks.com", the rant that I found there were from woodworkers, some of which I know. The response is 194 replies deep and over 3 and a half years long.

http://lumberjocks.com/topics/9026

It's not just me.

Your fundraising efforts might improve if programming like this wasn't promoted as something woodworkers would like to see.

The good thing is that you probably won't get anymore emails like this from me.

I think that so many of these shows work so hard to show me how to spend money, rather than how to pursue an interest or hobby. I'm just tired of being bombarded by commercialism, I turn these shows off.

Oh yeah, my other "favorite" was the almost 2 million dollar, prefab construction shown on "This Old House" a couple of years ago. I don't watch them anymore either.


----------



## RobWoodCutter

I must be missing something. ......

I thought the purpose of a TV show is to draw the most viewers possible in order to sell advertising. If your target market is "woodworking pro's and pro wanna-be's", I don't see how you could draw a large enough audience to convience an advertiser to spend money on supporting a show.

David Mark's work was great for the "true woodworker" but was just way to advanced for most weekend non-woodworkers to be entertained by. (Small target audience.)

NYW has some basic projects that a weekend Non-woodworker could look at and say "I might be able to actually build a table like that". Nail guns and pocket screws are the perfect helper for the non-worker to do "woodworking" projects.

When you see/listen to what my mom or wife or thier friends watch (which represents huge target audiences) are the "home improvement", DIY type projects shows, that take very little skills to staple/nail/screw BORG wood products together.

So these suedo "woodworking shows" that are geared toward the DIY person, seems to me, to be geared to general audiences for entertainment and not for the serious woodworkers that are anal about joints fitting to within a thousands of an inch, which just does not exist for you average homeowner trying to put together a deck or put a fence or a repair a wood floor or a simple box or shelf.

The reality is that there are simply not enough woodworkers in the world with the current skill level of David Marks or desiring to obtain that skill level to support his show or any other show similiar to it.

In other words what do you think the target audience level of Monday night Football compared to a "true" woodworking show is?

LJ has roughly 31,000 members but less than 8 percent (approx. 2500 members) have made more that 50 posts and less than 42 percent have made more than one post (approx. 13000 members) and 43 percent haven't even made a single post and only 232 members donate to the site. So if everybody that is active here (currently active, not ones who have 1 post in 800 days and iare most likely no longer coming to this site.) were to contact PBS, you still are not talking about a huge audience.

I watch all the Woodworking shows that come on, regardless of the skill level, simply because there really is not anything else on TV that interest me. Most programs on today induce artifical stress (everything is a competition, everybody is screaming at each other, everybody is stressed that they won't complete the "DIY" project before the storm comes/money runs out/somebody comes home or some other stupid reason.

So give me any and all woodworking shows, good or bad and I am happy. Rob


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## TheDane

Just a quick suggestion … if there is a show you would like to see carried on your local PBS outlet, go to http://www.createtv.com, click the Search box in the upper right-hand corner and type in the show name or a key word that might describe it (e.g. woodturning). If the show is in their catalog, you'll get an About The Show page that gives you the current schedule. If the show is not on the schedule, you can click Let us know if this is one of your favorites. It may not help, but it won't hurt to let them know you want to see it.

I would personally love to see more of Tim Yoder's Woodturning Workshop.

Also, remember that public stations (including PBS) operate somewhat differently than commercial network affiliates in that they select 100% of their own programming. That's why Don Peschke of the WoodSmith Shop TV show keeps reminding people to contact local stations to request their program.

I live in Wisconsin, and frequently write to Wisconsin Public Television requesting programming. They put me on a list to notify when a program I have requested will air, then send me an email when they do schedule it. I don't get everything I want, but I do believe they are trying to provide programming that viewers really want to see.

-Gerry


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## LeeBarker

Thanks, Gerry, for attempting to nudge this hurtling train onto a positive and useful track.

I have found in life that often what I dislike in another person is really what I dislike in myself. And that has had a wider truth for me.

Is this the longest thread ever on LJ? I'll be glad when it gets the blue ribbon for that and it can all go in a trophy (atrophy) case.

Kindly,

Lee


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## HorizontalMike

Well said Jerry. Let's just hope the House doesn't De-Fund PBS. I hear it is on their political radar…


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## bloggerfrank

I believe if you do not have anything good or positive to say, then don't say it at all. Tearing each other apart with a venue such as woodworking in uncalled for. If you cannot take the time to get to know the man (Scott) to appreciate what he does, how he does it, or get to know him personally is a back stabbing cowardice approach. Mark, I am surprised at you for putting yourself in such a negative spotlight. We are all woodworkers trying to help others, especially in a downward economy, where saying positive things to bring out the best in people serves a better position as Americans. There is enough business and appreciation for everyone out there who are trying to offer growth and good things without trying to bring them down is immature and wrong. No one is perfect, and Scott does many good things for many people. He pays for is own tools and accepts nothing for free. He only endorse tools if he believes in them. He works very hard and puts in many hours. I have never met a more positive uplifting human being in my life. His personality and efforts are of genuine care and love of forestry and woodworking. He would never put a personal attack on anyone regardless of his feelings. He always respects others and makes them feel appreciated in his company. He his a fine individual and human being. You really need to apologize. At least we are all trying to do positive things for others and bring workmanship ideas back to our American idealism. Yes competition is all about American marketing, but personal attacks on someone you have never taken the time to get to know is uncalled for. These are my personal opinions and not necessarily those of Woodcraft. No disrespect is intended, just trying to bring out the best and positive in everyone or anyone…Frank


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## TrmptPlyr

Frank,
While I certainly recognize and appreciate your respect and support for Scott, there is no way I will ever apologize for having an opinion. Your comment about the downward economy is completely irrelevant to the conversation and is simply a way to pander to anyone who have themselves, or known someone who has, lost something in these difficult times. I also believe you are blind to reality if you think anyone (your precious Scott included) would willingly (if even allowed by the network) endorse products for no compensation on a nationally syndicated TV program… So what if he only endorses products he believes in? It doesn't change that he gets compensated for it. Nor does it change the quality of how he PRESENTS woodworking on the show. He could be Sam Maloof in his shop with the cameras off, but on the show, the guy's a douche… If that upsets you, move on to another thread. Clearly there are plenty of people on this board who agree.

P.S. If you didn't have anything good to say, why call me out on this and speak against my right to an opinion? By your own statute, you likely shouldn't have said anything at all…


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## wb8nbs

FYI
American Woodshop is available at the WBGU web site.

I'm a Roy Underhill fan myself.


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## ptweedy

go to the new yankee workshop.com and see a different episode each week. If you don't write to or phone your local pbs station they wont know or care it seems. phil


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## TheDane

I don't know Scot Phillips, and, AFAIK, I don't know anyone that knows Scott Phillips.

What I do know is that his show has been on the air since 1993. That's 18 years.

I was in television station management for 28 years. I worked for some of the biggest companies in the business. Though my specialty was news and public affairs, I had a good deal of experience with programming and syndication as well. I can tell you from my own experience that a show doesn't make it that long without finding an audience. If a show doesn't find an audience, sponsors, syndicators, and program buyers will run from it in all directions.

The fact that Scott Phillips has had such a long run is pretty impressive.

-Gerry

P.S. I am a Roy Underhill fan, too!


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## a1Jim

I have not read all the previous comments but I agree with the original post saying that Scott Phillips is not a very good woodworker at least on television. Why a Woodcraft would sponsor a show with Scott Phillips instead of real talent like, Charles Neil or Phil Lowe or even good old Norm is way beyond my comprehension. If Scott Phillips has an audience it's because his viewers have no clue what real woodworking is about. I don't know Scott Phillips but what little bit I've seen of his show he seems like a nice guy. The first time I saw SP show I had been woodworking only a couple years , in that show he was making a shaker clock and he made the door with pocket screws that showed on the inside of the door. After seeing that I never watched his show again until recently just to see if he had improved ,I'm sad to say he had tons of new equipment but his workmanship is still very poor. Maybe if enough real woodworkers contact Woodcraft and let them know we want a real woodworker instead of Scott Phillips they will respond with some real talent. My apology Mr. Phillips but I'm afraid the truth is the truth.


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## newbiewoodworker

Well said Jim.

A company will not sponsor a television show such as "American WWer" without a great deal of advertising their products. Perhaps he does buy his own tools, however that said he probably buys them in "Label Show-age." Every time you see "Powermatic" he sees "$$$$." So of course the more that he endorses, the more he makes, which me might use to buy his own tools.

However, the tool does not make the woodworker, however a woodworker can make a tool. Sure the tolerances and such might be better, however a woodworking nimrod with an Oliver Dual Arbour, will still do a worse job than a woodworking savant with the Crapsman special. That was one thing I liked about Norm; He never really flaunted the labels of his machines. Sure, he had some nice machines, and a few of them were dead give aways, like the TimeSaver, and such, and those of us who know our machines could tell he had a Unisaw and Delta Multiplex… but the tools and glue bottles and such were never strategically posed so you saw the label for "Super-dooper-Freakin-Expensive-Glue" when he entered the shop.

I must say I watched Mr. Phillips once… and that was enough… I must say his woodworking was complete and utter garbage. We all need to write to WC and PBS to get his arse booted off the air.. Particularly before somebody gets themselves hurt.(There are inherent dangers, however they should at least be mitigated through proper technique, or the show geared towards those already knowing the technique.)
--I said the same thing about the safety aspect before regarding the one from Southie. In Rough Cut, at least the online ones, I saw several instances of bare palms being used as push blocks on jointers. Very bad! However I can over look that, since I never did quite see any uses of pocket screws on Shaker cabinets, and Although I have not seen the broadcast version yet, I would assume he corrected that habit..

-------------------------------------------------------------------
I will say in general I have a problem nowadays with all woodworking shows like this, times are different than when Norm started, a much different mind set. Nowadays you have fully grown adults who have never used a hammer before, yet try to build these Shaker Cabinets. The result is that if these shows do not show proper technique, chances are they are going to break all of their fingers, or in the case of power tools, cut em all off. I hate to say it, but even as a teenager myself, I can see that it seems most people nowadays are born without common sense, and the result is never good in carpentry. 
--I watched a kid in woodshop last year, try to rip a piece of wood on the Radial Arm Saw. Now I don't mean pull the arm out, turn the head, and feed the wood; I mean he tried to hold the wood in crosscut mode, and pull the saw through it…. keep in mind this piece was maybe 6" across 12" long…. Thankfully I stopped him before he actually went though with it… But it goes to show the lack of brains…
----Years ago however, common sense was a given; Guards were "optional accessories," safety glasses were rarely used, and hearing protection was unheard of. It was assumed you knew enough to watch your limbs, protect your eyes, and not try running a universal motor underneath the stairs…

*Okay, rant over.*


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## JoeLyddon

This is starting to sound like the groups that want to BAN The Playboy TV show… LOL


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## TheDane

In the interest of accuracy, I think it is fair to point out that the manufacturer's names and logos are blacked out on Scott Phillips show.

An experienced woodworker or tool maven can identify them by color and other appearance characteristics, but the casual viewer who doesn't know DeWalt tools are yellow and black would never know.

-Gerry


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## newbiewoodworker

Oh they are Gerry? Then In that case I recind that portion of the comment; That goes to show how quickly I flipped it off….

Lol Joe, if they did that I think the world might darn well fall off of its axis…


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## SteviePete

And after over two years of complaints…....it still runs in this PBS market. It's part of the "Improved Programming" our local contributions cover. It was the replacement for Nowrm-New Jankee.


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## WayneC

Funny thing is I saw a Banner Add for Scott on this web site yesterday. Promoting a contest.


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## bloggerfrank

@ Mark D: My comments to you regarding Scott were not to start a controversy with you, but possibly bring you another perspective from a personally known viewpoint about a good individual. Yes, everyone is entitled to their opinion, good or bad. To make it a personal name calling attack, to me is another story. I personally would never write negative comments about anyone, not even you since we apparently disagree in this case, because I respect you as a woodworker, bottom line. My point about the economy was to to try and state that as Americans trying to rebuild, regroup, help each other out in positive ways in times of the dips and valleys, was trying to state to you in a kind way that we need to stick together, as there are enough forces against us out there. We all have something to offer each other, to try and make this world a bit better and make a difference. With all the positive things that you do in woodworking, is bashing someone even for the sake of forum numbers and having a certain forum "stay alive" for so long although it being negative about a good person goes against my nature, especially if you have never met or worked with the man. He does not deserve that kind of commentary in my opinion, nor do you or anyone. Bottom line I was trying to relate to you is the old addage, if we don't have anything nice to say about someone, don't say it at all. As far as bothering me, yes it did because until you get to know the man, or anyone else, not just Scott, people do not deserve this kind of treatment. At least that is how I try and represent what I do for Woodcraft because I believe this is a great thing we all try and do to make sure woodworking stays alive in the future. Now relating to name calling as in your return comments saying "douche bag". That's below the belt, and beyond representing a mature writer which I am sure that you can be. I am not trying to start a war here, just trying to make some peace because I like what you do in the woodworking community. I am sure you are a far better person not to resort to name calling in light of the respect for all woodworkers. None of us are perfect by any means, and we can all learn by those going forward, but at least Scott and others are not sitting on their laurels doing nothing for anyone. You are always welcome to call me anytime at 304-865-5203, as sometimes I feel that emails and writing do not always convey the best representation in understanding what we are trying to get across to each other. I did not want to continue this type of rhetoric on any forum becaue it does no one any good to keep bringing negativity. I am only trying to contact you to engage a positive relationship in the world of woodworking. One other small item, I notice some people believe that the American Woodshop was meant to be put in place of Norm's NYWS, but that is not true. Norm wanted to be retired. If anything Rough Cut was the idea to do that from a new perspective I understand. But that being said I don't look at it as though anyone replaces anybody. We are all different and talented in our own ways. Everyone does what they can to make and teach fine things in this venue and brings their own perspective to a great value that should never die. Some are more fortunate or have desires to do PBS shows or teach at schools, or wood shows or some other venue. We are blessed to be able to create & share hand craftsmanship no matter what mistakes we make, but get to learn from. ...Grace & peace to you, respectfully, Frank


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## JoeLyddon

*
Don't forget to Vote your preference!

*


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## HorizontalMike

BUT JOE, you stack the deck since you selectively *Block* folks. What a guy you are…


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## JoeLyddon

HorizMike… Are you Blocked *from Voting?*

edit: I don't know when… Sometime… you must have really rubbed me wrong… Removed Block.
Thank you for the reminder.


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## RONFINCH

Hmmmm, watched Tommy on PBS this last season…....


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## TheDane

garypr-I think you have Scott Phillips' show (*American Woodshop*) confused with Don Peschke's *Woodsmith Shop*.

Peschke's show is just starting season 5 … Phillips' show is going into its' 18th season.

-Gerry


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## parkerdude

RESPONCE TO Joe Lyddon - post#217

YES…

But more than 1 word. My local PBS station has drifted further and further from my feeling of quality broadcasting. If the American Woodshop is the highest level of woodworking content available, then I am happily removing my name from the donations list, you all can watch and support a show that doesn't adhere to any thought of woodworking excellence.

This show could just as easily be about gardening or fishing, (both of which I like), as to the standards of what we do.

So I'll ask you a question, let's see how many of YOU woodwork like this.

Just today 8/6/11 Scott spray finished shellac on a picture frame, it was lying directly on his workbench. You could see the over-spray after he removed the frame. Earlier this week Scott edge glued 3 boards, lying them flat atop his bench. You could see the glue squeeze-out on the bench surface when he picked the boards up.

Is this how YOU woodwork? I am surprised, but maybe it's that I have a higher quality standard of woodworking.

I would really regret anyone that I have mentored or those yet to come to find this level of work considered acceptable.

In addition I feel it sad that Scott seems to have so little understanding of wood joinery, perhaps that comes down to traditional joints require skills. All I see is someone that has bought a shop.

Like anyone that has thrown money at any endeavor, because they lack the ????, what, time, knowledge, skill, patience?

To me that's not woodworking, that's machine working. Wood just happens to be the medium he has chosen to work in.

It does not inspire me to work wood.

And just 1 last rant…

I love the "woodworking" shows that use logos and sound bites that speak of chisels and planes and hand saws, and they NEVER use any of those tools. Truth in advertising laws should require them to only use the sounds that are created in their shops, I think few people would equate those sounds with woodworking. It makes them cheats in my book.

Make sure that you make a donation to you local PBS station, I'm done.

later,


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## a1Jim

I think parkerdude makes many of the points that should be addressed. Is it good to have a woodworking show just because it's a woodworking show? Isn't it important to teach correct safe techniques and quality of workmanship?
Mr. Phillips might be a wonderful person but in my opinion his woodworking skills don't justify having his own PBS or any other television show. I can't understand why his sponsors don't recognize Mr. Phillips low standards or that they don't care.
I don't blame folks that think that the American wood shop should stay on the air because they may not know any better or will watch any show that has woodworking in it's title or they just want to be nice to man that seems very nice on the air.
I doubt that my opinion has any weight with PBS or Woodcraft but I would hope that when Mr. Phillips retires that they will look for talent first over good looks or just likability when the select a replacement woodworker for a new show.


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## JoeLyddon

*Hey Guys & Dolls…* Please THINK about what you're talking about!

You know & I know that IF we could wave our magic wand and BAN anything we didn't like, we would be violating ALL of our FREEDOMS!

What if a huge number of people decided that *Woodworking should NEVER be talked about EVER AGAIN…* ... *and they were in the majority Hundreds to One?*

*What side of the fence would you be on then?* I know most of us would be madder than a wet hen!

*What it boils down to is:*

This is Freedom of Speech… a Right we all have… Yes, and I think you ALL will agree to that!

Any TV station has the Right to show any Show they want to… especially a PBS station…
Commercial stations will only end up showing the Shows that get good Ratings that generate income. It's *their *decision what to show and what NOT to show.

Now, if a TV station is told why a show is NOT liked and the station starts to lose income as the result of a Drop in Donations to keep it on the air, that *MAY* result in the TV station to take action… *You may like or dislike the action taken by the station…*

*Thank God there is no one group of people that can just decide what can or what cannot be shown on TV!*

In this particular case, I think it would do more good to Contact Scott and Flat-Out tell him what he is doing wrong & how you feel about it!

If he knew what is going on, I think he just might make a few changes in his shows… to make you LIKE them!

After all, I'm sure his objective is to make as many of us as HAPPY as he can… with his shows!

In short, I'm glad that no group, small or large, can determine whether a TV show is to stay on the air or not.


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## a1Jim

Hey Joe
You are a fine person that always wants to think the best of people and help them if you can, but with all do respect I disagree with some of the points you address such as your statement "Thank God there is no one group of people that can just decide what can or what cannot be shown on TV!" The P in PBS stands for public and if there was enough input from the public pbs will drop a show. And "If he knew what is going on, I think he just might make a few changes in his shows" In 18 years as a woodworking show host why couldn't Mr. Phillips find books or watch videos or get some information from other shows. When Marc Spagnuolo the wood whisperer started there was were a number of basis mistakes he would make on his show including safety issues ,but now Mark does top notch work safely and he has not been on line for 18 years Like Mr. Phillips has like all of us who have had a real passion for woodworking learn woodworking any way we can. I don't think we need to send suggestions to Mr. Phillips as to what he's doing wrong, he should have figured these things out by now on his own if he is as serious woodworker.


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## Racer2007

From what I have seen I would guess that not to many LJ's are planning on signing up for the current Contest at Woodcraft where you can win a shop full of tools and get to go to to Ohio and Watch a filiming of The American Woodshop. You would get to spend a whole day watching Scott destroy a good project. I can't stand the show and am really supprised he still has hhis fingers with as many times as I saw him run them right over the top of a router bit in the table or within inches of the table saw blade.
I really wish someone would bring Norm and the New Yankee Workshop back , unless Norm just decided he dosen't want to do it any more for his own reasons rather than PBS being selfish about it.

Marc, why don't you send some of your Videos to PBS and ask them to give you a Show.


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## trector

the host scott phiilips is a nice enough guy in person, but he reminds me of that one teacher that was just a little off in high school. He lives north of me and met him at a local show. The show could use some work but it is public television. I would love to have his job….....


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## Racer2007

I really don't like David Marks method of presenting the work either but not to say he does not do really good work, I just don't like the way it gets shown. He comes off to me as better than everyone else, but thats just me. As for Tommy Mac, he needs to SLOW Down and also it seems that every time he does something reallly good, he has someone else in the shop to do it and he just follows along and adds comments. I just saw the show on a tambour bread box and he didn't really do any of the work.


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## JoeLyddon

*a1Jim:*
*"Hey Joe
You are a fine person that always wants to think the best of people and help them if you can, but with all do respect I disagree with some of the points you address such as your statement "Thank God there is no one group of people that can just decide what can or what cannot be shown on TV!" The P in PBS stands for public and if there was enough input from the public pbs will drop a show. And "If he knew what is going on, I think he just might make a few changes in his shows" In 18 years as a woodworking show host why couldn't Mr. Phillips find books or watch videos or get some information from other shows. When Marc Spagnuolo the wood whisperer started there was were a number of basis mistakes he would make on his show including safety issues ,but now Mark does top notch work safely and he has not been on line for 18 years Like Mr. Phillips has like all of us who have had a real passion for woodworking learn woodworking any way we can. I don't think we need to send suggestions to Mr. Phillips as to what he's doing wrong, he should have figured these things out by now on his own if he is as serious woodworker."*

I value your woodworking experience and views… But, this is not woodworking we're talking about here.

*"The P in PBS stands for public and if there was enough input from the public pbs will drop a show."*

Yes, Public it is… and yes, people CAN contact the PBS station with their views about any program on their air. BUT, it's the Station that will decide, *on their own*, what, if anything, they will do about it. *Keeping in mind that everyone else who is Happy with the other side of the Views is NOT making their views known to the Station because those people are not aware of your views that you told them about…. A very unfair unbalance. Yes?*

Now, if the Station would contact ALL of their viewers and ASKED them for a VOTE on the subject or make their views known, that would level the field wouldn't it?

If a Station took action from a very small percentage of its viewers, they would be letting the probable Minority to rule the Majority… which is really wrong… wouldn't you say? 
(That type of action in our Government has been a problem for decades! ... but, that another box to open. LOL )

* "I don't think we need to send suggestions to Mr. Phillips as to what he's doing wrong, he should have figured these things out by now on his own if he is as serious woodworker."*

Don't you think that is very much like letting the Prosecuting attorney present his case… THEN, disallowing the Defense to present their case?

Think about it…


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## a1Jim

Hey Joe 
I can this is one of those things we do not see eye to eye on I don't really understand all of your points and it seems you don't understand or agree with my points so lets just agree to disagree. Have a wonderful day my friend .


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## JoeLyddon

OK… LOL ... still friends…


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## juniorjock

Joe, you and Jim are two cool guys. If everyone would follow your lead, LJ would be a much better place. (I guess I'm one of those at times). Jim - First time I visited your web site. Very nice. Very professional.

- JJ


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## JoeLyddon

*JJ:*

Thank you!


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## Delta356

Why do must of you keep harping on Scott Phillips of the American Woodshop, my god.. This is a cite for woodworking, not a place to bash an amazing woodworker and contributer to the woodworking program since 1993. 
None of you know of him personally and still some of you chose to put him down.
The first post by MARK D. which was ,what 2 years ago and were all still on this Topic. Its funny how most of you bash him behind his back….He's not here and you still do this. What happened to this cite so called community. It used be a happy place were people shared, and learned things. Now this community has become of people who bash a fellow woodworker.

You all have the power of the control, if you don't like the show switch the channel or turn the TV off, and if thats the case then do sooo.

I'm just tired of this subject keep coming up…….

Thats my 2 centsss, like it or don't………

Thanks, Michael Frey
Portland, OR

FREY WOODWORKING INC.


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## juniorjock

This thread was started almost 800 days ago….... not really a new subject.

- JJ


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## DurocShark

So why are none of these shows on Netflix???!?


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## JoeLyddon

PBS shows on Netflix?!

I wish!

I have NOT seen any PBS show on Netflix.


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## JoeLyddon

*Delta356:*

Golly, I think this is the 3rd or 4th time I have seen your EXACT same post…

Not all of us are BASHING Scott… are we? LOL


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## TheDane

Don-AFAIK, Netflix doesn't carry any shows produced for or aired by PBS. On the subject of Netflix, they are losing the Starz movies … negotiations broke down last week. The availability of Starz movies was one of the reasons I bought my ROKU.

-Gerry


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## JoeLyddon

Gerry,

Netflix has also raised their rates! I am canceling our DVD subscription and going ONLY to Streaming…

Sounds like the Streaming movies selections will also SUFFER… I wonder by how much?


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## DurocShark

Gerry- Yeah, I know. When NF raised their prices, I dumped the DVD option. Now losing Starz .. Bah!

Maybe the loss of Starz will open them to re-negotiating with PBS? Wouldn't that be nice?


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## TheDane

Don-I'm all for more choices!

-Gerry


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## a1Jim

Michael

Amazing varies as you gain experience. When Norm first came on the air I thought everything he did was perfect, but as I gained experience I realized Norms approach was not always correct and in time Norm realized his first approach to certain techniques needed to be corrected also. 
I agree that we should spend our time on woodworking and that's what we have been doing is talking about a woodworker.
You entitled to your opinion just like the rest of us. But my opinion is that's Scott Phillips woodworking skills are far from amazing or even acceptable. That does not mean he is not a wonderful human being. As far as talking behind Mr. Phillps back this is a public forum open for all to see. If you enjoy his show that's your choice,but that still does not make his show accurate as far as his techniques or practices are concerned nor does it make his projects acceptable as goodworkmanship.


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## TheDane

Though some of the techniques Scott Phillips employs wouldn't be my first pick (e.g. pocket screws), I don't fault him for that. And I regularly see Phillips observe a safety measure that I regularly see guys on other shows violate (has to do with a miter saw .. anybody know what I am talking about?).

A wise man once told me that there are often times when there is no right way or wrong way to do something … just different ways.

-Gerry


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## Delta356

AIJim well said. DOES not mean I agree with you : )

Talk about some hot weather???and the firessss. here in Oregon..

I'm staying in my shop.

Thanks, Michael Frey
Portland, OR

FREY WOODWORKING INC.


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## JGM0658

"This is starting to sound like the groups that want to BAN The Playboy TV show… LOL"

I sure hope not! I watch it for the articles….


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## parkerdude

Guys…

I've gotten my licks in and I think Scott has to be tired, I know I am.

Most of my complaint was fueled by so many supporting Mr. Phillips as a good / great man, I for one don't doubt that he is.

I will invoke my powers of remote control, and change the channel when his show airs.

Some of you could make de-escalating MUCH easier if you too would just put the marking KNIFE down.

I think he is a genuine, thoughtful, good guy. I haven't seen anything in his work that I want to copy.

Let's stop the madness, if not we will start arguing whether OJ did it and that MJ had vitiligo.

R.I.P.


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## JoeLyddon

*"Guys…

I've gotten my licks in and I think Scott has to be tired, I know I am.

Most of my complaint was fueled by so many supporting Mr. Phillips as a good / great man, I for one don't doubt that he is.

I will invoke my powers of remote control, and change the channel when his show airs.

Some of you could make de-escalating MUCH easier if you too would just put the marking KNIFE down.

I think he is a genuine, thoughtful, good guy. I haven't seen anything in his work that I want to copy.

Let's stop the madness, if not we will start arguing whether OJ did it and that MJ had vitiligo.

R.I.P.

-dust control"

*

. . . . . . .. .. . . . . . . . . . amen

.

.

.
. . . . . . except those simple Deck Chairs that I was inspired to make…
.. . . . . . They were W O N D E R F U L !


----------



## agallant

Holy $h!t. I am watching this show right now and I can believe what a mess-ass this guy is. I mean really, I am cleaner in my shop than this guy is on TV. Imagine what they edit out to make this guy look good. I know there will never be another Norm or David Marks but for the love of god this guy is the best that PBS could come up with?


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## agallant

And just for the record I have to say one thing that drives me crazy about this show is how everything is a power tool and unlimited budget. I just saw him explain how easy dove tails are when they are done on his $600 Delta dove tail jig. Now the others (norm and marks) have expensive tools and jigs too but they show tips and tricks on how to do things like joint on a table saw with a strait edge if you don't have a jointer.


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## JoeLyddon

I noticed the other day… he was Turning something… and he covered it very well… safely… effectively… showing very good expertise … very good instruction. He knows how to use the lathe… IMHO…


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## surfin2

The only thing I thought was wrong was when he tried to talk with his mask on…

I can't understand a word he says with a mask on…


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## thiel

Yes, a mask, but it comes off immediately after the cut-you know, since all the dust is gone from the air as soon as the tool is off….

I'm always amazed that he has a ZILLION dust collectors-each dedicated to its own stationary tool-but almost never uses a vac on his powered hand tools.


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## JoeLyddon

*The Full Face mask is primarily for Lathe Safety..*. NOT Dust control… *IMHO…*

Is he supposed to wear the mask all the time… for Dust safety?? * I don't think so.* LOL


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## thiel

Oh… I don't mean the face shield, I mean his surgical style dust masks. He removes them even while there is still a cloud visible on camera… and usually says something like "I always wear a mask, because dust is dangerous…" just as he inhales the fog.


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## JoeLyddon

OH… I haven't noticed… I guess he's doing what I'd be doing… LOL


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## ed220

I don't comment often.. but I feel the need to now.. I guess with the choices on television these days we should be grateful that there are any woodworking shows at all…they might not be the best but it's all we have…imho.


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## JoeLyddon

*ed220:*
*I agree 200%*

*... halitosis is better than no breath at all…* LOL


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## bloggerfrank

If he didn't where a mask at all, or didn't talk safety, then he would be accused of no safety. It really doesn't matter what Scott tries to do, whether you take it positively or negatively, fault would would still be pointed out no matter what he offers. I suggest, he who is perfect and has never made a mistake in the woodshop, cast the first stone. I am ashamed to be on this site, as I have NEVER found so much negativity in all my woodworking travels as I have found here. If I came to your shop and attempted to film you in your projects, let's see how many of you that have raised so many negative accusations would be so perfect all the time. I am sure it would probably take "bloopers" to the next level.

Above, Gerry states it humbly…"A wise man once told me that there are often times when there is no right way or wrong way to do something … just different ways." Well said Gerry, that is why woodworking is fun, and can bring out the best in anyone, or should be. We have enough competition in this world, woodworking is an area that uplifts and is inspirational. Woodworking for some, has turned lives around from disabilities, injuries, even mental illness. What more could you ask for from something that we cut out of the ground and create such beauty?


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## parkerdude

For all you guys that promote this kind of woodworking, I want you to find yourself in a dream where ALL of your woodworking is done in Scott's shop, and that all of the work, (yours included), and training is strictly held to these standards.

I want to see your glue-ups done directly on your very nicely crafted maple benches, (squeeze-out and all), and I want to see your butt joints held with the combination of biscuits and pocket-screws, just like Scott does. I want all of your trim pieces to be attached with cyanoacrylate glues and accelerator, just like Scott does.

I want to see you projects finished with brushed-on "shellac cut 25%" until it runs, again, onto your unprotected work-bench, just like Scott does.

The next time you see a newbie wood worker making an obvious mistake, don't intervene, they probably spent many hours studying just how to do this thing we call woodworking, on some local PBS station.

As funds have gotten tighter, it has made the choice to cross MY local PBS station off my ever diminishing donations list. I can now honestly say, in this case, I am getting what I pay for!

My frustration does not come from the shop of Scott Phillips, he is what he is, and at least he is trying.

What chaps my cheeks is all of the "puppy hugging" support he's receiving. I am surprised that some of our members care so little about their personal reputation.

I have a hard time with forum boards, I find too many people lacking common-sense. It makes it hard to except the views as credible information, you know "fan-boy" sites.


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## JoeLyddon

*parkerdude:*

OK, I have to ask you…

Would you please list ALL Woodworking TV Shows that you have ever seen in your life… 
. . . and
Indicate next to each Show, Yes or No, which ones Pass your criteria and is Recommended by you to Watch (if possible to watch again)?

Thank you very much.

*edit:
It might be interesting to see what everyones List would look like… So, ALL of you… Make your list & Yeah or Nay Ratings.*


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## NANeanderthal

In order from favorite to worse
(I am only listing the shows i get, have never seen david marks' show)

*Wood wright shop*- Best hands down, Roy is entertaining, wicked smart and good at the craft. Love his show

*Rough Cut*- Tommy makes nice work and is fun to watch

*Woodsmith shop*- oddly entertaining to me, but I'm a hand tool guy, and even thought there logo is a plane, never seen them use one

*New Yankee workshop*- He get all the love and the hate, personally, he just puts me to sleep

*American Woodshop*-He seems to be using a pro shop to show DIYers how to make weekend projects and call them heirloom.


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## parkerdude

Joe, I'd be happy to talk to you in the open, and in this forum is just fine.

Feel free to ask direct questions, they can even be about our difference of opinion regarding holding poor performances in high esteem.

I don't however work for free. If you'd like to retain my services to compile a list as you have defined, I'd be happy to take on that project. We can discuss payment at a later date.

In my life experiences, you meet people who can, and some that can't, perform at a significant level of competence. They might be wonderful people, but when you look for references, those are not the people that you are looking for.

This IS NOT a judgement of Scott Phillips' character. I wouldn't find it difficult to believe Mr. Phillips is a genuine, thoughtful, even, a kind fellow.

It's just me, this is MY problem.

It is about credibility. ANYONE touting substandard work as high quality, just ticks me, among others, off.

This discussion won't die because some of Lumberjock's posters don't seem to understand the concept of "the quest for excellence". This is not a race to the bottom.

Mr. Lyddon, from you Lumberjock homepage, and the links to your personal website, I would say that you are a staunch supporter of those around you that you like. I would also say that you don't do any more woodworking than I do.

I try to create the best product possible, failures are rarely finished, and I have made some things more than once until the result was good enough to share.

I can say, in my opinion you have a severe credibility issue.

I am astonished you would promote someone incapable of performing at the level I reserve for recommendations. Rather someone that you like, that may be a fine individual, but who's quality standards are not the first regard.

In conclusion, I don't have a list of all the woodworking shows that I have ever watched, with a narrative of my likes or dislikes.

But I do have a list of those that I have found to work at sub-standard, and the people that RECOMMENDED them.


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## TheDane

parkerdude-Just curious … how would you judge my credibility?

-Gerry


----------



## parkerdude

Hi Gerry,

Nice to meet ya. Your question puts me a bit on the spot, not having time to get to know you and all.

Ok, here are my first thoughts…

With an all too brief look at your posts, projects, reviews, etc. I can see that you are a dedicated, relatively focused, somewhat passionate woodworker, where quality and workmanship are not lost. Your reviews were thoughtful, and enlightening, they even sounded trustworthy. 

As you can probably guess, all traits that I respect.

Pretending for the moment that I've known you a while, I'd have no trouble buying tools, powered or hand tools, based on your recommendation. In the real world, with this brief time as colleagues, I would listen and use your thoughts and suggestions to help support or reject woodworking decisions or purchases.

I live in a realm where your word as a man (figuratively), is judged by the quality of those words.

At my highest level, that which is reserve for my peers. My word will always be my very best effort, I would tend to answer any question, and probably offer "local knowledge" if I thought it added worthy information to your efforts.

I would trust a small child, because of their innocence, but I would almost hate the man that ran me on a fools errand.

So I ask YOU my new found friend, would you run me on a fools errand, or could I trust you to give quality guidance?

Once again, nice meetin' ya,


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## TheDane

parkerdude-I would never run you or anybody else around on a fool's errand. Life is too short to play mind games with people … especially when it comes to something that so many people do as a hobby (in a lot of cases, to get away from the mind games people play in the business world).

I asked the question because I wasn't sure if you perceived me as some sort of fan boy of Scott Phillips. From your review of my previous posts, you have apparently discerned that I am not, and that I try to offer constructive comments, and, within my limited expertise, advice.

My view of shows like American Woodshop, New Yankee Workshop, Woodsmith Shop, and so on probably differs from others on this forum due to my experience (28+ years) in television. Though my specialty was news and public affairs, I had a great deal of experience with audience research and development, including so-called 'info-tainment' products.

One of the hard lessons I learned when I went to work for one of the biggest names in television was that I could no longer trust my gut in evaluating programs and talent. I learned instead to use research, focus my efforts at the viewers we wanted or needed, and trust the audience. The audience can be a fickle mistress … but it usually doesn't take long for them to tell you if you are hitting the mark or not, then you use research to either right the ship or abandon it.

I don't pretend know what the audience targets are for a show like the one Scott Phillips does, but I'm guessing that his sponsors know and that there is a sufficient enough degree of satisfaction with performance to warrant their continued under-writing of the production.

In my view, it is there if somebody wants to watch it. Nothing wrong with that.

-Gerry


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## JoeLyddon

*parkerdude:
*
OK, per your desires, let's get it out into the Open…

You sent me this PM:
*"Hello My Lyddon,

I do not withdraw from lively debate, but I just noticed from your Lumberjocks homepage the quote "No more stress for this puppy! ".

The thought crossed my mind that my "puppy-hugger" comment might have been misconstrued as a direct shot at you. It was not. Perhaps just an interesting, ironic crossing of terms.

Back to the races !"*

... and my reply…

*Hi parkerdude!

Hey, I'm not under any stress here… 
As I was reading your last comment, I got to thinking… "What shows live up to all of this?" 
So, I thought I'd ask… that's all… no biggy…

We've been roasting/broiling Scott Phillips and his American Woodshop…

So, now that we all (know) what is wrong with him, maybe it would be more Productive to go the other way and ask "What are the woodworking shows.. that we DO Watch… and DON't Watch…

We all know how AWS would go… how about the rest of them? 
... we've killed that dead horse… yes?

Wouldn't that really be more productive?

Nothing personal here… just having fun! LOL*

OK, we're out in the open… nothing personal… no problems… LOL!


----------



## JoeLyddon

*Not necessarily in order of preference:* (If it's woodworking, it's good!)
For every show, I take the Good with the Bad… ignoring the bad… but using all of the rest that I can.
Sometimes, my way is better for me, but always nice to other ways to do it.

*The Router Workshop*: The best show for Routing techniques, projects, how-to, jigs, fixtures, etc. Loved it! Wish it was still on! Will get anyone Up-to-speed on using a router. Great Show!

*Woodworks: * with David Marks… really miss it… A First Class show… with First Class projects!

*New Yankee workshop*: Norm was the First show that I started watching to help me get Back into woodworking. I ALWAYS enjoyed his shows… First Class! I really miss it!

*Western Pacific Workshop*: Clive was good… Taught you how to "Clive it"! Nice little string of shows, projects, and techniques! A neighbor of mine… Miss the shows…

*The Woodworking Channel*: Internet site. Haven't seen it in a long time… Wonder if it's still on?!

*The Woodwright's Shop: * Roy Underhill is the Master! Good for hand tool techniques and good OLD stuff… Love it!

*The WoodSmith Shop: * Really like it… they seem to strive for techniques, etc. and NOT Super Hot furniture, etc. Shop stuff is GOOD.

*Charles Neil:* Love his YouTube shows! A real Master! Always learn something!

*American Woodshop*: It's about woodworking… I'll watch anything about woodworking… I'll take all of the Inspiration I can get… I just ignore what I don't care for… but Take what GOOD there is.

*Rough Cut*- Tommy is a very good woodworker… I don't care about a lot about the unnecessary Gab (but put up with it)... Seems like I always learn something… or get something refreshed.

*Woodturners Workshop:* Although not a "turner", it's fun to see how a lot of the stuff he does is ACTUALLY done!


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## LittlePaw

I've watched Scott Phillips from time to time - not regularly - mostly for ideas, much less on the how he does it. I also watched a couple of Norm's shows back when. He made so many mistakes both on the show and on his book that I have no respect for him. I'm glad he's off the air. So, other than for occasional "entertainment" and maybe some laughs, none of the woodworking related shows are truly worth watching - IMHO. I've gotten much more out of studying the blogs, forum posts and descriptions from LJ projects ! ! !


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## wormil

My only issue with American Woodworker is that it is a boring show… too much time spent on safety, overuse of power tools and most of the projects are rather bland.

I am liking the new season of Rough Cut, the helper seems to be gone and Tommy is trying to avoid punctuating every sentence with "Right guys?" and other annoying idiosyncrasies.


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## tpobrienjr

I taught my kids that they could learn something from every person in the world. I find Scott Phillips' show entertaining and informative. There has not been a single episode from which I didn't learn something useful. Now, I think some of the projects are kinda homely, but I thought that about Norm Abram's show too. I'll keep watching American Woodshop!


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## shinju

Put real woodworkers on t.v. Like the woodwisperer or Todd .the shows are just used to push products and do not show the true woodworker and what he does.but I think that does not make good t.v.they should do a show on the quality of the work on this site and show how true lumberjocks work…shinju


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## TrmptPlyr

I think I should get an LJ Award for "most controversial topic" or "longest running thread" lol… it's been 1013 days… lets let my rant die already!


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## toeachhisown (Eddie)

dont watch tv often just the young and restless ,and paula dean's cooking show .have all the masters here and if i want indepth study of something i go to them and pay for their courses like say charles neil has a load of special study on finishing and the woodwhisper or William Ng just to name a few i will gladly pay these masters for a study on something im wanting to learn before i give it to a cable company which i dont have.just to many here on this site master wood workers that will go out of there way to help you learn

*sorry MarkD**
had to get my 2 cents in there


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## kitfox

I watched Scott´s episodes on internet. the guy has a great attitude plus his wife Susy is not bad either. I like both of them. If you do not like them, well, don´t watch them now. It is that simple.


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## JoeLyddon

*
I agree...

*


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## bandit571

Seems I've run into Parkerdude's attitude somewhere else…... Maybe over at the Burl? Sounds just like "rondavid" talking.

BTW; I happen to live about five miles from Mr. Phillips "new" house. Might just drop in one day, and have him check this thread out. About halfway through it, Scott would be rolling on the floor…...


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## hobby1

*Quote*: "I think video/audio programs delivered over the Internet is the wave of the future. The format allows the "host" to totally explore a topic, without the *limitations of the TV format*." *Unquote,*

People are probably judging Scott Philips woodworking based on the limitations that his media circumstances bind him to, He deserves a fair chance to prove His work just as any other woodworker under ideal woodshop conditions, than to have his reputation soiled over the internet so quickly.


----------



## hobby1

*Quote*: "BTW; I happen to live about five miles from Mr. Phillips "new" house. Might just drop in one day, and have him check this thread out. About halfway through it, Scott would be rolling on the floor……"*Unquote*

bandit571:, 
If you decide to do this, I would like to add another post to this thread.

Scott:

Thankyou for taking the time and using your resources to provide for the comunity of woodworkers the shows you provide, also a very big thanks for graciously providing the free episodes of the complete shows on the innernet, I noticed, you never asked for any special club membership to get any free episodes, the episodes are equaly provided for all who would like to watch them.

Thankyou, and 
God Bless you, for your exceptional great generosity.


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## Earlextech

I agree hobby1. Well said.


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## lumberjoe

All great points here. I would like to add something from a newbie perspective. While the TV format is not ideal and the selection of woodworking shows are limited, the internet has the opposite problem. I had a tough time discerning the "good" from the "bad" information on the internet. For the most part TV shows are vetted to some extent to include a reasonable amount of safety. Some how-to's online look incredibly dangerous to me so I would never attempt them. I watched a video of a woman cutting raised panel doors on a cheap skil table saw. She had the piece up against a tiny metal fence (nothing sacrificial) and just slid it through an angled blade that was about a half inch from the fence and cranked all the way up. no jigs, no push sticks, just two hands at the top of the door and slamming it through the blade. The legs on the right side if the table saw base actually came off the ground. There are some people who think (and commented as such) that this was a great idea. This community has been the most helpful thus far.


----------



## RobertGalloway

What do we have to do to get David Marks back on TV? Is it just me or was that one hell of a good show? I loved to watch that guy work.

G


----------



## Finisherman

Here's something that's a wee bit off-topic, but here goes. I want Joe L'erario to come back to television, whether with or without Ed Feldman. Their show was both entertaining and informative. At the very least, I would like to see Furniture on the Mend/Furniture to Go released on DVD.


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## Jim Jakosh

I don't watch TV much and have not see this show. It sounds like the guy in it is Scott Phillips. I met Scott at a seminar he gave for our guild and I learned a few things from him. I can't imagine him showing unsafe practices??
I learn more here on Lumberjocks than I ever will on TV and don't have to sit through mindless commercials!!!!!!

My 2 cents worth on this subject…..........Cheers, Jim

I'm with LittlePaw


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## JoeLyddon

Every once in awhile Scott will do something, especially during an assembly, that is a little shady…
...like he has bionic arms or something… where all the pieces stay together while he screws-in a screw to help hold things together… Yeah, sure…

But all in all, he's not bad… he's got his wife on the shows a lot more now… scroll sawing, finishing, & little artsy stuff.

I catch him sometimes with an unsafe TS rip…

Most of the time, he does a decent job… Not perfect… but, there was only One of those & was a woodworker too.


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## RustyL

Sorry to say but the last couple of seasons Scott makes Norm look Neander. I remember back when he used a shop built circle jig on the band saw but not now. He seems to own every store bought item he can find and tells us how great and indespensible those things are.

Yeah the flaunting is kind of sorry.


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## distrbd

I Try watching Norm on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=norm+abrams+new+yankee+workshop&oq=Norm+A&gs_l=youtube.1.1.0l6j0i10j0l3.588604.597112.0.600868.6.6.0.0.0.0.239.702.5j0j1.6.0...0.0...1ac.1.11.youtube.jdQKapODGqI


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## distrbd

Try watching him on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=norm+abrams+new+yankee+workshop&oq=Norm+A&gs_l=youtube.1.1.0l6j0i10j0l3.588604.597112.0.600868.6.6.0.0.0.0.239.702.5j0j1.6.0...0.0...1ac.1.11.youtube.jdQKapODGqI


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## wormil

I've never seen Scott Phillips do anything I consider unsafe but I've only seen a couple seasons. Looks like my local PBS isn't carrying the show anymore. His show is aimed at woodworkers who have a large shop and can afford any tool they want which I don't believe represents the majority of hobbyists.


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## HorizontalMike

Geez folks! We all get OLD! Live with that fact, at least until you can no longer vote in THAT poll… *;-)*

But seriously, I have problems with these youngin's that don't even know who Euell Gibbons is, *Geez…*:


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## JoeinGa

*"TASTE LIKE WILD HICKORY NUTS!"*

I so remember that commercial from when I was a kid!


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## HorizontalMike

Sorry Joe, I was off the coast of Vietnam (both North and South) at the time, though it was still an important moment in my memories. I would have much rather been gathering wild nuts and berries…


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## JoeLyddon

*Ken, thank you, * took me back a few years and a couple of hours… was nice… even had a nap too…

*HorizMike, I remember him...* I think he expected he would live forever… then, the GrapeNuts got to him…

*Horiz.Mike... nothing to be Sorry about... * I find myself changing the ch. to watch The Lone Ranger for better entertainment… LOL


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## JoeLyddon

I think my favorite now days is *The WoodSmith Shop…* I really like that show… even if it's a rerun!

Good solid stuff… very well presented… always good teamwork!


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## RobertGalloway

I think my all time favorite was David Marks "Wood Works". Anybody else like the guy?


----------



## TheDane

David Marks? Yup … wish he was still doing new shows. I think he only did 4 seasons, but they are sure worth watching.


----------



## surfin2

?David Marks? "Wood Works"
*Never made it to my area… *


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## TheDane

I think David Marks show was on the DIY/HGTV cable channel. He was actually on for 7 seasons, and did 91 episodes. See: http://www.djmarks.com/woodworks.asp


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## JoeLyddon

I liked David Marks… his stuff was always a "cut above" the average…

LOL


----------



## RobertGalloway

David Marks was on DIY. I didn't discover him until near the end of his run. I recorded what came after. I'll say again, he was probably my favorite. I think his entire series is for sale but I'm a little too frugal to bite off that much at once. He does seem to assume we can all buy every toy but one can usually figure an alternative to a Multirouter. He tackles the kind of stuff the others haven't had the nerve to tackle. Tommy Mac appears to be moving toward his logical successor.


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## wormil

He tackles the kind of stuff the others haven't had the nerve to tackle. Tommy Mac appears to be moving toward his logical successor.

This is why Tommy Mac has become my 2nd favorite woodworking show (after Woodwright's Shop), just because he has tackled some fairly complex projects. That, and after participating in an online chat with Tommy Mac, I liked him even more. He was pretty much exactly the same as on television: energetic and enthusiastic.


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## oldnovice

I think that in order to be a good wood working show you need to see techniques to slave common and uncommon problems, decent variety of projects, and a personable host.

The New Yankee Workshop had all three, The Woodrights Shop also has these three, Wood Works was also in this category but The Wood Smith Shop is over burdened with too many hosts. I have fallen asleep during American Woodworker many times … don't even know why I bother with it!

*I am hungry for another good "Norm" like show!*


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## wormil

Yeah I think every new TV woodworker wants to be Norm. Tommy Mac definitely emulates the format but I wish he would drop the five minute field trips at the beginning of each show; they were never my favorite part of New Yankee Workshop either. What concerns me is that Roy Underhill is bound to retire someday and I can't imagine who will take his place. Schwarz is kind of poised to take over and I've enjoyed him as a guest but I don't know.


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## TheDane

+1 on Rick M.'s suggestion that Tommy Mac can the road trips. I think they are a waste of time. I'd rather they devote the time to Tommy, Eli, and Al interacting in the shop on a project.


----------



## learningtowoodwork

I'm a very untalented beginner wood worker who is learning from what I can absorb from tv shows and the internet. I would have to say that even I find this show very sad. When I watched it I was finding the work very inferior to what I have seen everywhere else. Just very cheap end results and finish appearence. Never whatching it again. I just hope other beginners out there don't watch this show and think that what he does is acceptable. Just sad and harmful to people who watch this show. I just joined so I could put this out there for others to see and pass along to other beginners out there.


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## hairy

This thread is a zombie, or the energizer bunny . Maybe the classic Phoenix rising from the ashes? Is it deja vu or reincarnation? I know, stuck in the space time continuum. It can't go away, it just keeps going round and round. Living proof that time is not linear. Mary Shelley would have a blast with this one.


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## T32

American Woodshop is in very large part a successful marketing tool for Kreg, Festool, Jet, Powermatic, and other woodworking tool and accessory makers, I think. All of the Woodcraft sponsored shows get me to buy more of their merchandise as it goes on sale in their monthly flyer.

And I very much enjoy all of these woodworking shows. But only WoodsmithShop gives me the free plans which I can then modify as needed to what I'd like to do. And, while I could afford $99 for the first 8 seasons of the WoodsmithShop, WBGU charges $50 apiece for seasons of the American Woodshop. I'd like to see them offer all of the past seasons of the American Woodshop at least at prices comparable to the $16-$20 sale prices of "the Woodwright's Shop," but preferably at the $10-$12.50 prices comparable to "the WoodsmithShop" and other sale prices on woodworking DVD's. Put the list price of the latest season at $30 for a year or two if you are content to follow the crowd, WGBU, but adjust to comparable pricing readily seen in the wider world or go a step further in promoting woodworking education and future sales of this and similar products.

The same goes for the "New Yankee Wood Shop." It was before my love of wood working was able to re-emerge with a passion, and I'd like to watch all of those old episodes if I could buy them at an affordable price.

I think too much of this is priced out of the reach of the vast majority of Americans. Thankfully, woodworkers in general are a caring and sharing bunch, as evidenced by this very forum.

And woodworking knowledge even from centuries past is still very useful, especially in understanding fundamentals and aesthetics.

For most, however, modern tools make it possible to build projects within the time we can devote to a project. Still, most of us need to find creative alternatives to expensive tools that production shops find to be a great value but are too expensive for the rest of us. A domino joiner surpasses my plane joiner and biscuits but the price has me looking at fluted mill ends for my router along with designing jigs to do that task.

I'd love to own the two sizes of Festool Domino tools but unless the price came down by about 2/3's it is never going to happen. It goes back to a company making a small amount on a lot of sales or a big amount on each of a much smaller number of sales. To keep the high quality it would probably mean having a "value" brand with enough differences to not loose the customers buying the premium quality product. Or a copycat coming out. How long do patents last?

With my own physical limitations it is also impossible to do the tasks as I would have as a fit, healthy person. So jigs are the way for me. Along with yard sale shop tools which are affordable yet decades old, but continue turning raw wood into useful, often elegant, things. A Freud blade on a 1960's vintage $99 Craftsman Table Saw is a good example of what I use.

And a Festool Domino-type tool would do so much, especially with my disability. Does anyone have an old one they are going to sell? Sorry, I've drifted off topic though having just watched the final episode of American Woodshop, Season 22, "Recycled Trestle Table" it seems predictable.

Bringing me right back to the marketing impact of the show, hence the sponsorship and the argument that $50 for two DVD's unnecessarily limits access to upper-income to the exclusion of the vast majority of Americans.

It makes me wonder if the pricing is more reflective of sales to other educational institutions with the much larger market of sales to individual woodworkers having been ignored. That fits nicely with my memories of years at a University and dealing with the administration there…


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## bloggerfrank

To T32: The prices charged by PBS for The American Woodshop episodes goes completely to PBS and nothing goes to Scott & Suzy Phillips. Scott posts his episodes on his website for FREE. You may find them at this link:
http://www.wbgu.org/americanwoodshop/seasons.html


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## Grumpymike

I've been watching this thread for a few years now, and I think I shall speak up.
David Marks is a high end furniture maker and has shown us some gorgeous woodworking.
Norm Abram has shown us how to make things from his famous router table to how to hang siding … He is the master.
Roy Underhill has shown us how it all came about long before power tools, and taught us the true craftsman's way of taking raw material and crafting into … whatever.
Scott … Well Scott shows us that we don't have to spread the glue, just wiggle the boards and clamp it up … Hmmm, not my choice, but he is showing that it is easy to create this or that.

I could go on and on naming woodworkers all the way back to Wally's Workshop of the 1950-1960's.
They have all inspired us to do woodworking and we have all learned things from all of them, some good and some not so good.
One feller pointed out that Scott does some unsafe things … So, he had paid attention to another woodworker that said don't do it this way. He knew enough that he could point out the mistake. I have watched Roy Underhill bleed on camera several times.

I watch them all when I can, and I'm entertained with them all….

Why do they put on these TV shows? well I like to believe that they want to inspire others to give it a try and become a woodworker by showing that it's not all that hard.
But we all know that there are a lot of dollar signs attached to *every thing* they do, the TV shows, the video's, books, and showing off some manufacturers product and so on. ... So there lay's the bottom line, its all about the money.


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## JoeLyddon

*Frank Byers*

Thank you for posting the American Woodshop link! Very NICE!

Do they drop & add more seasons… as time goes by… ?


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## oldnovice

Many of these shows, sometimes long running commercials, are available on YouTube and you can skip the commercials.


David Marks
Charles Neil Woodworking
Roy Underhill
American Woodshop
Norm Abrams, including bloopers
Steve Ramsey
Woodsmith Shop
Woodworking Masterclass
The Wood Whisperer
not in any specific order

And many many more!
But you need to *be careful* as there are also a *number of wood butchers* out there!

I just had to replace my TV so my wife decided it was time for a smart TV so now we can watch YouTube, Hulu, Netflix and others on the TV ….... really nice!


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## JoeLyddon

*oldnovice*

Thank you for a Great List… Yes, the Smart TV is really nice… Netflix, YouTube, Pandora are our favorites… Don't like Hulu… Amazon Instant Prime is good too… (but not as good as Netflix… IMHO)

I wish The Router Workshop programs were available somewhere…


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## TheFridge

You can't polish turds.


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## oldnovice

*Joe*, the Router Workshop is available on YouTube too but you have to separate those videos from all the others with routers by using the exact title *The Router Workshop by Rick Rosendahl*.


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## JoeLyddon

*oldnovice*... Thank you again…

I searched YouTube… only got 11 hits… wish there were more shows… but…

*Here is one of the COOL Tips I found...*


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## Redoak49

I think that they are all available online for a monthly fee.

That was one pretty slick dovetail joint that was linked to.


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## oldnovice

*Redoak49*, I have not checked into monthly fee versions, the ones I mentioned above are all free!


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## bigblockyeti

> You can t polish turds.
> 
> - TheFridge












Yes, yes you can!
http://www.discovery.com/tv-shows/mythbusters/videos/polishing-a-turd-minimyth/


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## JoeLyddon

I just took a little time to watch this *COOL Router Workshop video FOLLOWED by several New Yankee Workshop Videos!
*
It really brought back some cool memories…


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## Jim Jakosh

WOW, this is a long post…has to be a record for an active post. I responded a few years ago , I think. anyway, I just ran through some of the comments and see that the Scott that is on there is Scott Phillips. Like I said, I don't watch TV, I learn all I need on You Tube and here on Lumberjocks ( the best woodworking site on the web)
Well I know Scott Phillips personally and I like to see him in live seminars. He was at the wood show in Charlotte, Mi where I bought my lathe last year. I've learned a lot from him over the years. If he is putting on a poor performance it is probably what the network wants and I'm sue he does what they want for the money. Sorry to hear that. I'll ask him about that the next time I run across him and let him know fellow woodworkers concerns.

cheers, Jim


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## robscastle

Is everybodies friend Ted McGrath on the show yet?

I havent seen it but sounds like interesting viewing?

Just out of interest what is PBS


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## wormil

TV woodworking is facing a huge problem because there are YouTube guys who probably have more viewers and honestly are better at making videos. The sponsorships paying for television will go to the online shows and that will be it. Roy will have a show until he retires or dies. Tommy Mac's advantage is that is doing real woodworking but I think they need to work on the format and editing.


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## TheDane

> Just out of interest what is PBS


PBS is the Public Broadcasting Service. PBS is an independently operated non-profit organization.


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## bloggerfrank

Ted McGrath???? You mean the guy who steals woodworking plans and claims them as his own? And he credits no one on social media for the use of everyone else's posts.


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## JoeLyddon

The American Woodshop is on the Create channel a couple of times a week now…

I have noticed that he has cleaned up his act… He now tends to slow down and do things right and SAFELY…

I see little error once in a while but, nothing that amounts to anything…

Much better than he used to be… Maybe he has read this thread… and decided t do something about it?


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## wormil

If you guys think Scott Phillips is unsafe you'd be traumatized watching me.


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## Tod

Now, I AGREE with the vast majority of you: American Woodworker cannot be counted on for "best practices." An early show caught my attention when Scott sprayed on a finish while the piece was sitting on the bed of his expensive lathe. Another time, running into the end of the show, Scott quickly tossed the poly onto the piece and started spreading it out. I was angriest when he used a spray can of shellac on a beautiful tropical wood desk lid that must have cost $200 before working it. I believe I saw runs forming. We can do better.

BUT…

I complained about him to my sister, a creative person, a quilter, but a non-woodworker. She offered a defense that makes it easier for me to enjoy Scott as a quirky friend. My sister points out that Scott makes woodworking more accessible to people like her. He makes some fairly complex projects understandable to my sister.

The owner of a local Woodcraft franchise told me a few years ago that Scott Phillips had visited there and Scott is a very nice fellow in person. He also reports Scott was very helpful as well. Nice doesn't make a show better, but it counts for something.

I recently looked for plans for one of Scott's designs. I couldn't find any. Probably it's a lot of work and not profitable for Scott to make them. Maybe it causes people to go to the Internet for more guidance from other sources as Marc Spagnuolo recommends. And that, as Martha Stewart would say, is a good thing.


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## JoeLyddon

Thank you for bring this back to Life!

*... some very good links here…*


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## OleGrump

I vote for Tommy Mack's "Rough Cut" EVERY time. Tommy actually SHOWS you what to do. Phillip's butt-ugly and sometimes plain STUPID projects are ridiculous, poorly executed and wasteful. and NO, his wife is not SO interesting/talented/attractive that the audience needs to be exposed to her in almost every episode.
PBS SHOULD bring back "Rough Cut", continue to showcase "The Woodwright's shop (30 years and STILL goin' strong, Roy!!!) and hey, they've got 20 years of "New Yankee Workshop" episodes, they should start re-airing starting with Season 1, episode 1. Instead of watching "American Woodworker", I'd rather spend that 30 minutes in the shop, myself. Just my two cents.


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## TheDane

> PBS SHOULD bring back "Rough Cut" ...


Word has it that Rough Cut is coming back … just with a different host.


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## HorizontalMike

> PBS SHOULD bring back "Rough Cut" ...
> Word has it that Rough Cut is coming back … just with a different host.
> - TheDane


I would ALMOST go for that. However, I would rather see "rotating hosts" on a RoughCut show, after say… each 2-3 episode 'project'. That way even Tommy Mac could still float through on occasion. IMO, it is more important to show/exhibit excellent woodworking, and less important to recruit new wannabe WW'rs on each and every episode. Just my 2-cents…


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## wormil

> PBS SHOULD bring back "Rough Cut" ...
> 
> Word has it that Rough Cut is coming back … just with a different host.
> 
> - TheDane


Are you hearing that somewhere besides LJ?


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## TheDane

> Are you hearing that somewhere besides LJ?


In a video a month or so back, Tommy Mac said he heard they had hired somebody to host a new version of the show.


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## JoeLyddon

Rough Cut is on the Create channel… I watch it when it's on… All reruns, right now.

I like WoodSmith shop… Woodwrights Shop, as well as American Woodshop.

I think Amer. Woodshop has gotten better by NOT displaying his poor Safety moves… He's much better now…
He must have gotten The Message….


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## TheFridge

> If you guys think Scott Phillips is unsafe you d be traumatized watching me.
> 
> - Rick M


Or me


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## wormil

> Are you hearing that somewhere besides LJ?
> 
> In a video a month or so back, Tommy Mac said he heard they had hired somebody to host a new version of the show.
> 
> - TheDane


I missed that one. Whenever asked he usually says he's not doing that anymore and he's still under contract and legally can not say anything so I'm surprised he risked it.


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## Jairman

OK I know this has been beat to death, but I have to rant a little. I have been a wood worker for a few years now. The thing I dearly love about it is you are always learning and refining your skills. I often rewatch episodes of Woodsmith, Roughcut (the new one and the old one), The Wood Wright Shop, and I am always up for a Youtube video of the WoodWhisperer. All of these guys share one thing in common, they have an enormous amount of talent and have taken time to learn their craft and they all find guests that we can all learn from. Scott's favorite tool seems to be the pocket hole jig. I have yet to see a show where he doesn't find some way to use a pocket hole screw. I hate being talked down to by someone that doesn't know the first thing about cutting mortises and tenons, or how to layout a set of dovetails. Honestly, who in the world thought this guy knew enough to put on TV??


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## JoeLyddon

> OK I know this has been beat to death, but I have to rant a little. I have been a wood worker for a few years now. The thing I dearly love about it is you are always learning and refining your skills. I often rewatch episodes of Woodsmith, Roughcut (the new one and the old one), The Wood Wright Shop, and I am always up for a Youtube video of the WoodWhisperer. All of these guys share one thing in common, they have an enormous amount of talent and have taken time to learn their craft and they all find guests that we can all learn from. Scott s favorite tool seems to be the pocket hole jig. I have yet to see a show where he doesn t find some way to use a pocket hole screw. I hate being talked down to by someone that doesn t know the first thing about cutting mortises and tenons, or how to layout a set of dovetails. Honestly, who in the world thought this guy knew enough to put on TV??
> 
> - Jairman


If you bothered to watch any of the more recent Amer. Woodshop shows, you will find out that WE HAVE GOTTEN to him! He pays more attention to SAFE OPERATION now, the biggest gripe against him.

If we would watch for the GOOD things instead of waiting for someone to knock the chip off our shoulders, one would get a lot more out of the programs… He's going into 25 years; that's a sign that someone thinks he's doing Something Right and Improving along the way!

I watch all of the shows that you do… except The Whisperer… I think I have more experience than he does… and I'm supposed to learn from him?! It seems like every time I see a show of his on YouTube, I see where he's done something WHERE A much better way is common place! I do not go out of my way to watch him anymore…

All of the other shows, I love… Including Scott Phillips and Amer. Woodshop… where I always learn some new little tidbit…

One thing that "get's to me" is the number of pocket holes he continues to use on his pocket hole projects… like every 4" apart!! I think he must be getting a Kickback on the screw sales… I overlook it… I will continue to use 6-8" spacing…!! ... and I will use good Clamps while screwing things together; rather than his unacceptable way of doing it.  However, it doesn't bother me to the point of NOT WATCHING any more of his shows.

Chill out and look for the Good stuff.. you might Like it…

Just my view… IMHO…

After 3 posts in the last 17-18 years, I would think you would have learned more than this…

I hope you enjoy more and more on LumberJocks… Welcome!!


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## bandit571

Like I said long ago in this thread..I have watched Phillips from BEFORE the pocket hole era….before he moved to the new shop, even.

If one hasn't even bothered to watch the show, lately…how can they even talk about it?......


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## Grumpymike

And speaking of the number of pocket hole screws Scott uses …. Well, Gee Golly, guess who sponsored the show … Duh … 
I do watch him, but of all the TV woodworkers he is my least favorite.

And another pet peeve is the tool cabinet in the background … filled with wonderful old tools, ... that he never uses. 
Ever see him go to the cabinet and pick out one of those old beauties … and use it?? But a wonderful prop.


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## JoeLyddon

> And speaking of the number of pocket hole screws Scott uses …. Well, Gee Golly, guess who sponsored the show … Duh …
> I do watch him, but of all the TV woodworkers he is my least favorite.
> 
> And another pet peeve is the tool cabinet in the background … filled with wonderful old tools, ... that he never uses.
> Ever see him go to the cabinet and pick out one of those old beauties … and use it?? But a wonderful prop.
> 
> - Grumpymike


Yes… Kreg is a advertiser… good reason… 

That is a nice tool cabinet… I haven't seen him use it either… Yep, good prop…

I just watched a recent program… *they made a cool fold-up book case* (he's calling it a Tool Cabinet)... might not be strong enough for books… I guess…

Anyway, I enjoyed it, a cool project… Couldn't see anything really BAD about it, except the liberal use of pocket holes… 

FYI, *all of the video programs can be watched here FREE*... which I think is really NICE.

I thought he had a solar array installed a long time ago… Looks like he's getting another one?!
OOPS… I just noticed that this program was issued in 2001!! Maybe This is the solar array he got way baack when! (My, how time flies!)

I still like their programs…


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## wormil

The wood bicycle episode was interesting until it turned into a boomerang episode, which was actually also interesting.


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## Peteybadboy

OK I read all the posts, more like skimmed after 99. I too liked Norm. He came on at the time I had no tools, and only knowledge from H.S. wood shop. AW- I watch, but my wife hears me say, did you just see what he did?! He does like to say "Butternut" on every show. I would probably watch it , but it's not on in Ft. Myers. Marc Spagnuolo I check your web site several times per week. I enjoy it. (I have not subscribed to guild or podcasts) I'll look into that. I like T Mac and rough cut, I don't get the new guy down here either. I check FWW site often (I subscribe to that) mostly look at tool reviews, or help with a project I'm about to start - i.e. Humidor, then I check L.J. for ideas etc.. I'll take recommendations for youtube, pod casts etc if you have them.


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## JoeLyddon

> The wood bicycle episode was interesting until it turned into a boomerang episode, which was actually also interesting.
> 
> - Woodknack


I watched it too… It was a shame when the bicycle was cut short and didn't see it ridden… The boomerang WAS very interesting… would like to try it sometime…


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## Dano46

I watched Tommy Mac for years. He has that young cockiness carpenter about him. pitching a piece of wood to someone and saying "Think fast" isn't my idea of shop safety. He will never be a Norm. Not even in the running.

WoodSmith I enjoy. There are good tips.

Roy Underhill The Woodwright Shop is very interesting I believe that can be enjoyed by even non woodworkers.

Tom McLaughlin of the new Rough Cut With Fine Woodworking, is a guy that could give even Norm a run for his money. That show could be on for many more years


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## wormil

I didn't even finish watching the new season of Rough Cut.


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## DesertRatTom

I've enjoyed several seasons of Woodsmith Shop, and see it as about a 4 year cycle starting with real basics and advancing to more complex projects, then the cycle starts again, which is what is happening to that show right now, back to basics. Seasons 1 through 3 had a guy on who was sort of egotistic, but also really knows his stuff. I watch those early seasons again and again because I don't do those procedures often enough to recall all the steps unless I review them. So I have the DVDs to make it easy to review.

Another good thing about that show is that they tend to stick with a few basic power tools. They changed cast this year, and one of them is pretty knowledgable while the other two are OK. They're doing the setting up your workshop again, yet they also commit the sin of leaving stuff out.

Back to the internet these days, I like the Wood Whisperer a lot and in particular how he doesn't skip past the trick stuff. Glad he has the new, large shop and that the tool makers are sponsors. I think I'll subscribe to his channel now.


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## Flcrackerfurniture

Some valid points but you are being a little hard on Scott. If you really love word-working consider that we all have our own styles, likes and dislike but variety helps elevate the craft. I would encourage all of you to be angry about the way Tommy MAC has been treated by television, Norm is maybe a little tired and no one has really spoken of the father of all of this Roy Underhill who undisputedly takes us all the way back. I am great full for each and hope to see more from all and bring back Tommy MAC!!!


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## wormil

The new Woodsmith guys are an improvement IMO. I'm sure the former hosts were good dudes but they were boring. The new guys are less boring, the format seems slightly improved too.

And as much as I like Tommy Mac, I suspect he sold the rights to his show without realizing what that meant. I don't know if it's resolved but I believe he sold his shop equipment.


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## OleGrump

If PBS got up off their cheap asses and showed reruns of Rough Cut, New Yankee Workshop, Woodcarving with rick Butz and Roy Underhill they might not have to whine for dollars every five minutes. But they are just too damned cheap to do it. I'd start chunking in again, if they did that, but who the Hell needs cooking shows where every recipe has about 97 ingredients and takes all damned day to make? WTF? My wife is Indian, and even she only makes chicken curry at home about twice a year because it's a MAJOR PITA. (three hours of constant labor and every dirties every pot and pan in the house) It's time PBS brought back some USEFUL programming. They need to 86 Scott Phillips and that dingbat wife of his. His "craftsmanship" sucks, and it's a wonder he hasn't lost a few appendages. I think he's been sniffing "vhar-neesh" as he calls it, TOO long. he can't make it and he sure can't "fin-eesh" it either. As they usta say in Vaudeville "GIVE HIM THE HOOK !!!"


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## Bluenote38

Sounds like you guys have better programing than I do. I get an episode of Router Workshop once a month and occasionally a segment of Woodsmith. The rest is just not worth watching.


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## JoeLyddon

> If PBS got up off their cheap asses and showed reruns of Rough Cut, New Yankee Workshop, Woodcarving with rick Butz and Roy Underhill they might not have to whine for dollars every five minutes. But they are just too damned cheap to do it. I d start chunking in again, if they did that, but who the Hell needs cooking shows where every recipe has about 97 ingredients and takes all damned day to make? WTF? My wife is Indian, and even she only makes chicken curry at home about twice a year because it s a MAJOR PITA. (three hours of constant labor and every dirties every pot and pan in the house) It s time PBS brought back some USEFUL programming. They need to 86 Scott Phillips and that dingbat wife of his. His "craftsmanship" sucks, and it s a wonder he hasn t lost a few appendages. I think he s been sniffing "vhar-neesh" as he calls it, TOO long. he can t make it and he sure can t "fin-eesh" it either. As they usta say in Vaudeville "GIVE HIM THE HOOK !!!"
> 
> - OleGrump


I'm sure they probably have legal issues to contend with… !!!


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