# Question for parents



## Charles_wilson (Jan 28, 2008)

I read a post on another woodworking forum that really disturbed me.

The poster was relating an accident that occurred in his shop involving his young son. Granted that I have been called overly cautious over the years,but I can find no situation in which I would allow a child to operate a table saw no matter how closely supervised.

In over thirty years in the wood industry I have trained / taught hundreds of people in the safe operation of woodworking machinery and tools and I was floored by the posters claim "it was just an accident".

My question, What age should a child be allowed access to power equipment?

Thanks

Charles


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## North40 (Oct 17, 2007)

Depends. Size and responsibility level of the child would make a difference. Also the specific power tool and setup. I guess the public schools figure about 12 years old for Jr High shop class.


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## bbqking (Mar 16, 2008)

I was 12 years old in Jr. High shop and built a bookcase, a stool, a gun rack, and a desk using all the stuff. This was in the late 60's, too. I can't really remember but I bet we didn't have the safety devices we have now. I guess our best safety feature was the shop teacher, who watched us like a hawk. (That part I do remember.) bbqKing.


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## tooldad (Mar 24, 2008)

I have taught both jr high and high school shop. I allowed students to use the drill press, drill, band saw, jig saw, miter saw (only with hold down clamp and supervision while cutting) and the palm sanders. We built a pen holder during 7th grade (only had the kids for 2 months) and some sort of clock or shelf in 8th grade. (only had those kids for a semester.

Some of the kids in high school still make me nervous. I have had 4 accidents in my school shop with students that have required stitches to a student. 2 on the band saw and 2 on the table saw. Call me lucky. Both on the table saw was students trying to remove the scrap and knicked the blade, nothing serious. One of the band saws was same reason, trying to grab scrap next to blade, the 4th was a student that didn't have a setup check which was required in my class, and had the guard/guide up about 2 inches above the top of his work and he rotated his knuckle into the blade.

I have been teaching 10 years. Average 100-125 kids a year. Over 1000 students and only 4 got stitches. Not too bad.

On the other hand, my 4 1/2 year old has operated a palm sander on a large panel door for my wife's birthday at age 3. He also has pulled the trigger on the brad nailer for me while I held the nailer. He has run the trigger on a cordless drill with my help. We build a semi truck from wood when he turned 4 and used the drill press with a hole saw to cut the wheels. (I clamped the boards and installed the bit, but he pulled on the feed lever). Finally just a few weeks ago he used the band saw to cut a board to length to make a m&m dispenser. I was over his shoulder and ready to grab if needed. He was cutting a 15" board about 2" wide in half the short way to make the spacers for the project.

My son also knows that safety glasses and ear muffs are required in the shop when tools are running. In fact I don't even let him play with toy tools wrong. for example hammering with a screwdriver or trying to cut the dog with the toy circ saw or nail gunning something that isn't part of the project.

My attiitude toward parenting is teach them right. If you tell them no, they try it anyway. We did the same thing with plug in's. We always had the outlet covers on the ones not in use. but he knows only plugs go in outlets and only to plug something in with mom or dad watching. So far an approach that has been working.


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## NY_Rocking_Chairs (Jul 20, 2008)

I distictly remember "helping" my father build our first kitchen table when I was 6. By the time I was 10 I was doing all the electrical work on the house when we finished the basement, put on the addition, etc. I was not cutting the wood, but hammering and such. By 12 I was trusted to operate all the power tools on my own.

So a lot depends on the child, how they are raised, how the parents teach, etc.

I have also been shooting competitively since I was 10 years old yet not once did it enter my mind to shoot at someone or use my rifle in anything but the approved manner at the range. Yet while vacationing in Disney World in 2005 there were kids playing in the bushes shooting their "toy" guns at strangers as they walked past, with the parents watching. These toy guns look very realistic and it would make most people nervous to see a gun pointing out of the bushes and at someone or themselves.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

I agree with Rich that it is all about teaching kids respect for tools (and guns) from a young age.

I was raised around power tools and guns, and my father was a very safety-conscious man with both. By the time I was 9 or 10, I was allowed to use drill, power sander, drill press, bench grinder… pretty much whatever we had in the shop, without constant supervision. BUT, I had been watching him use these things since I was old enough to follow him around, and every time I watched him use a tool, he would instruct me in how it worked and how to use it safely. The same was true for firearms. It's all about education.

Having said that, I wouldn't let a child use something like a table saw until he was not only educated, but also physically large enough to control the cut safely.


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## TraumaJacques (Oct 25, 2008)

Hi, I have two daughters my older one would never be caught in the shop she is too much of a princess but my youngest one who is now 6 loves to be with me in there. However the minute she comes in the show stops and under no circumstances would I use the power tools when she is there. I do however give her scraps and tape and pencils and such to play with until I am done whatever I am doing and then I need to come in and spend some time with them. Like Rich said its about respect for danger. I work in a ER and can tell you stories about people who forgot to be careful. While letting the kids play (safely) you make them aware of what could go wrong and they will respect that so it is a fine balancing act between exposure to danger and complete sheltering them from it. 
I think age as less to do with it than exposure and common sense I was working full time and lived out of my folks house by the age of 13 now I know my ten year old is not going to be ready to do that.


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## oldskoolmodder (Apr 28, 2008)

I think it's up to the parent to decide what age they let their kids use the tools. Some kids are overly cautious, and some not so much.

When I was in grade school, a janitor showed several of us in his shop at the school, how to make bird feeders, by using a hand auger. Even with carpenter/cabinet makers in the family, this was my first exposure to tools. Obviously, I've never forgotten and so it's a special memory for me.

I have a young cousin (now 9), who would always mess with my tools, when I was over at their house doing something for them. I'd always tell him, DO NOT touch my tools. Practically as soon as I turned away, he'd touch them. I cured him of touching my tools, by having him "use" them, but under my supervision. Could be as simple as drilling a hole or screwing in a screw with the driver, to using a brad nailer. From my experience, it's actually cured him of touching the tools. Even though I was holding on to the brad nailer while he used it, the sound and feel from pushing the trigger and the nail going in to the wood, showed him that tools are scary, sometimes.

The bottom line is that people should use common sense, when letting kids operate power tools, or even powerless tools.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

I have an autistic nephew who like lights and things that spin
around. He turned on my drill press once or twice and both
me and his father jumped all over him about it.

Seems to have cured him of that.

I'm in favor of no power tools til a kid can use the hand-tools
safely. A kid can cut himself up with a handsaw or mash his
thumb with a hammer but it's nothing compared to the maiming
force of a machine.

I wouldn't be inclined to let kids use power tools until
they had hurt themselves several times with handtools, had
alot of splinters, etc… 'cause you learn proper caution from
minor injuries.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

I have an autistic nephew who like lights and things that spin
around. He turned on my drill press once or twice and both
me and his father jumped all over him about it.

Seems to have cured him of that.

I'm in favor of no power tools til a kid can use the hand-tools
safely. A kid can cut himself up with a handsaw or mash his
thumb with a hammer but it's nothing compared to the maiming
force of a machine.

I wouldn't be inclined to let kids use power tools until
they had hurt themselves several times with handtools, had
alot of splinters, etc… 'cause you learn proper caution from
minor injuries.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

I have an autistic nephew who like lights and things that spin
around. He turned on my drill press once or twice and both
me and his father jumped all over him about it.

Seems to have cured him of that.

I'm in favor of no power tools til a kid can use the hand-tools
safely. A kid can cut himself up with a handsaw or mash his
thumb with a hammer but it's nothing compared to the maiming
force of a machine.

I wouldn't be inclined to let kids use power tools until
they had hurt themselves several times with handtools, had
alot of splinters, etc… 'cause you learn proper caution from
minor injuries.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

I have an autistic nephew who like lights and things that spin
around. He turned on my drill press once or twice and both
me and his father jumped all over him about it.

Seems to have cured him of that.

I'm in favor of no power tools til a kid can use the hand-tools
safely. A kid can cut himself up with a handsaw or mash his
thumb with a hammer but it's nothing compared to the maiming
force of a machine.

I wouldn't be inclined to let kids use power tools until
they had hurt themselves several times with handtools, had
alot of splinters, etc… 'cause you learn proper caution from
minor injuries.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

I have an autistic nephew who like lights and things that spin
around. He turned on my drill press once or twice and both
me and his father jumped all over him about it.

Seems to have cured him of that.

I'm in favor of no power tools til a kid can use the hand-tools
safely. A kid can cut himself up with a handsaw or mash his
thumb with a hammer but it's nothing compared to the maiming
force of a machine.

I wouldn't be inclined to let kids use power tools until
they had hurt themselves several times with handtools, had
alot of splinters, etc… 'cause you learn proper caution from
minor injuries.


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## Hrolfr (May 12, 2008)

If this is the story I am thinking of the kid was 6 and the tool was a tablesaw…. the parent saw no fault in the 6yr old using the saw….....


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## Josh (Aug 14, 2007)

I'm just now able to let my 12 year old daughter wash the chef knifes. I could not imagine letting her use a table saw. I'm guessing she could handle a jigsaw. I'm all for pushing kids but 6 is a little young to be running a table saw.


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## Charles_wilson (Jan 28, 2008)

Thanks to all that responded. Your thoughts on this subject are in line with common sense and what I think could be termed as reasonable for most people.

When I first read the post that Hrolfr referenced, I could not believe a parent would allow a six year child to operate a table saw no matter how much supervision\help was given.

I too grew up in shops and construction sites and was always taught to respect tools and equipment. I have also had the opportunity to see the results of lack of that respect, fortunately not too often.

My son was never allowed to operate power tools until he had a through understanding and respect for everything in the shop. If memory serves me that was around 12-14 years old, and a few more years of summer helping before the supervision was reduced. I have adult employees that I would not let near machinery without extensive reinforcement of some basic safety rules.

For me the most troubling aspect of this event was that the father believes that because he took his child to the ER and his mangled thumb was repaired, all is better now.

Speaking from first hand experience (pun intended), any hand injury (other than the most minor injury)never is good as new. Bone does not regrow, fingernails don't always regrow perfectly, scar tissue is not like the skin you were born with.

I am sorry if this is graphic. Safety should be taken very seriously be it a casual hobby or your full time job.

Rant mode off…..............Carefully climbing down from my soapbox.

Charles


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## mski (Jul 3, 2007)

My Daughter is 10, she has been woodworking from 8, she can now use the router , planer, drill press ect, closley supervised , but she is NOT allowed no where near the table saw.
My local Woodcraft store limits age 13 for their classes.
Speaking of tools anyone ,how dangerous is one of those mini lathes?
She is dying to turn pens.


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## spaids (Apr 15, 2008)

Technical preschools are teaching welding to kids so why not how to use a table saw.

Full News Coverage. (Audio is needed)


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## Woodchuck1957 (Feb 4, 2008)

In this day, I wonder when a doctor would have to report such an injury.


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## mski (Jul 3, 2007)

spaids, Maybe when She is 16 or so. 10 is a little young.
Woodchuck , you got a point!!


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## spaids (Apr 15, 2008)

mski, I don't think you clicked the link to the news coverage of the Vocational Preschools.


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## teenagewoodworker (Jan 31, 2008)

well I'm 15 and i own a whole shop full of tools and operate them regluarly and i am very safe. I didn't see the article so i don't know how old that kid was or what the situation was but i don't think that there is a certain age that kids should be allowed to use power tools. you have to work their way up. i started with a drywall saw and a hammer, then a jigsaw and a drill, now i have 2 routers, a lathe, 2 bandsaws a table saw, a miter saw, a lunch bow planer and many other little tools. like i love the tools but i still love hand tools where i began with. i can hand cut dovetails, i hand plane a lot of pieces. just depends a lot on the individual kid and these kids should be taught an actual skill. a table saw is not a skill. hand cutting dovetails is.


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## GaryK (Jun 25, 2007)

Go teenagewoodworker go!


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## kolwdwrkr (Jul 27, 2008)

I think it really depends on maturity. There are a lot of immature adults that have a hard time with tools, thus there will be a lot of immature kids that have troubles with tools. But, there are a lot of mature people using tools, and teenagewoodworker is living proof. Age has nothing to do with it, it's the mind and how it can act and react to a situation.


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## christopheralan (Mar 19, 2008)

I don't think age should be a factor. I know a ton of "grown-ups" who can't walk across the room without getting injured…


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## mski (Jul 3, 2007)

spaids, it is alot different teaching MY daughter one on one than a school some knuckle heads toss thier children in without checking them out!
As stated above maturity plays in big time
As Gary K says GO teanagewoodworker GO!!!


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## spaids (Apr 15, 2008)

mski,

I really hope that you were able to discern that the news report was intended to be funny and no such moronic school could ever exist. I still think you have made comments regarding the vocational preschools without clicking the link.


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## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

one of the most important things to remember, in my opinion, is to ALWAYS use all of the safety practices when the child is anywhere in the vicinity. Not only does this make it safe for the child but also shows how to use the tools appropriately. 
When teaching to use the tools, walk through each step carefully and explain why each safety practice is important. 
Any missed step means that they aren't responsible enough to use the tool yet.


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## interpim (Dec 6, 2008)

I have a 7 year old, and he isn't allowed to touch anything except screwdrivers.

If you have a shop without keyed switches on the equipment, and you have small children, there is no excuse for any accidents. Lock the shop so they can't get in unsupervised.


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## NY_Rocking_Chairs (Jul 20, 2008)

The 2 year old was helping me redo the plumbing in the kitchen the other day. He took all the scrap pipe and leftover or unused fittings and made quite the little project. He even ended up with the blue PVC glue all over his face, which didn't please the wife too much. Though considering how much glue I get on my skin, clothes, hair, etc, it is no wonder.

He got to keep this project and he gets a pair of channel locks off the counter, knows how to adjust them, and turns the fittings on his project.

The glue was from him putting his hands on the drip catching paper bag, not from me letting him have the glue.


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## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

that's a good point about locking the shop when you aren't there… young kids like to practice what they see.


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## Chipncut (Aug 18, 2006)

In my 8th grade shop class we only used hand tools.

We were allowed to watch the teacher use the power tools, as he explained the safety aspects of operating them.

We were allowed the use of all of the power tools in 9th grade.


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## grained (Nov 13, 2008)

My grandfather started me working with a bandsaw under his supervision at about age 7/8. He was a former butcher who was missing half of four fingers. He explained to me how he lost them before he let me turn that saw on.

my daughter is 8 and I'm getting her started with woodworking a little. We don't have a tablesaw but the day she went to school with me she was told she would get the boot if she touched any tools without one of us telling her it was ok and helping her. My classmates are all Ag Ed and Tech/Industrial Ed majors. They had a good time working with her and she came out having used a drill, some handtools, a disc and a drum sander and then she also got to trace out patterns that needed to be cut out. She was fascinated by the timesaver and stayed far away from the tablesaws.

I only have the jig saw and some dremel type tols at home right now. I showed her the scars on my hand and explained why I hold things funny with that hand and also why I can'r feel a whole lot with that hand and also get aches in it when the pressure drops. She agreed it would be best to stay away from the tools without my help for now.

We'll get a tablsaw in the next year or so but she won't be allowed to use it. Kids that age aren't strong enough to handle them. Heck I'm a 5'10" brunhilda and still have lost my grip and gotten snap back off of it.

Back to writing curriculum. Its finals week and I've got a 17 week plan to write up.


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## Woodshopfreak (Feb 26, 2008)

I kind of agree with Teenage woodworker in the respect that you have to know your child and how they think. I believe a lot of people at my school aren't mature enough to operate any power tool what so ever, but there are some kids that have the respect and the knowledge to make them realize not to be stupid around tools. I have this one thought that kids are stupid when the chance of injury is low, but when they know the ability to get hurt, in this case getting a finger cut off or getting kickback, they really realize that if they do something stupid it's not that hey will get yelled at or get in trouble. We are talking about a life altering thing that could happen if you were to get your finger cut off. I operate my table saw with my dad only but all the other tools I'm allowed to use myself. I make myself always use the guard, splitter, and kickback pawls. This greatly reduces the risk. Once again I really believe that you have to view each individual kid to see if they are capable of operating a table saw. Think of it this way, a 15 year old can drive a car with a parent! Were not even talking about loosing a finger or getting hit by a board on a table saw, we are talking about the possibility of hitting someone and seriously hurting then or possibly killing them!


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## dsb1829 (Jun 20, 2008)

Yep, saw that post. Having a son who is edging up on 7 I can say whole-heartedly that he is not ready. He is helper status in the garage. I am graduating him to hand sawing currently. Once he get the hang of that I will likely track down a brace and bits for him. IMO the inattentiveness and short focus of children this young is a serious liability.

I was doing wood shop and metal shop in Jr. High. I got cuts and burns. Nothing serious, but even as a young teen my attention span was not terrific. For the power tools I am going to cast my vote that the child should be 13-14 and have a fair amount of basic training before being cut loose.


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## Padre (Nov 5, 2008)

I agree with the 'gradual' approach. Just being around the tools, watching but not touching, helps. Start out with a hammer and nails and an old 2by when they are 2 or 3, then screws, etc., up until you think they can physically and mentally handle more sophisticated equipment.

It is still the parent's responsibility to supervise at ALL times, teach, reinforce and, if necessary, discipline.

Just my .02 worth.


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## Beeguy (Jun 11, 2008)

I was about 10 when my dad started building new cabnets for the kitchen. He purchased a new radial arm saw for the project. I was allowed to help but not really use any tools. Expirence is a great teacher. Watching him run his finger tips through that saw has always stuck with me. In his defense he just got his first pair of bifocals and as best as we can figure, he somehow distorted his view and where his fingers were. He was using the saw to rip a small board. Regardless they were too close. I have thought about that day many, many times in the last 40 years. Dad has been gone for a number of years and I still have that saw, but as far as I can remember I never used it to rip anything.

He gave me my first tool a year later it was a jig saw. I did cut myself once on it. Pushed a board too hard and touched the blade. Nothing but a small cut but I learned all blades cut fingers regardless of the size.


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## Sawdust2 (Mar 18, 2007)

I remember 6th grade shop class. We were making corner shelves out of 1/2" pine. Mostly used a coping saw.
We had to make one straight cut so I went over to the table saw and started it up. Thought the instructor was going to have a cow. This was 53 years ago.
"But I've been using one at home for 2 years." says I. Dad had a full shop.
My grandfather had been a carpenter and had given me a full set of real sized hand tools and a tool tote when I was 8.
I was given my first power tool, a Craftsman saber saw, when I was 10.

That said, I wouldn't let my grandsons near any of my power tools. They just do not focus on what they are doing or are supposed to be doing. They are 14 and 18. I had always looked forward to having them in the shop and working with me. Never happen. The youngest couldn't even help me with the planer!

Age is NOT the determinant.

Lee


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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

I depends a lot on the kid. 
Some have a great degree of hand to eye co-ordination at an early age and some take a bit longer. 
I tend to start them off with a hammer and see what goes from there. 
The younger ones have an extremely short attention span and absorb knowedge like a sponge.
It's easy to over estimate their abilities.
Play a bit of catch with your kid before you decide on taking them into the shop.

Bob


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## mski (Jul 3, 2007)

spaids, Just making the point that My Daughter is carefully supervised and educated in the wood shop!!
I just did not know if YOU knew that was bull poop!
Some people do take those internet scare stories seriously!
that and I are too old , I click on them and immediatly I can spot a bunch of bull, don't even go past click .
Sill waitng for some Russian to come steal my liver and kidney's while I'm sleeping.


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## Broda (Oct 7, 2008)

At school were not alowed to use the band saw until year 9, same with the lathes and routers ect.
but in year 8 we were alowed to use the drill press.
im only 13 but i have used a chainsaw before. but as people have been saying its how you grow up that determines what you are allowed to do. i was only allowed to use the chainsaw because i have seen my dad do it since i was 5.

at home i can use any of the tools i own becuase my parents know that i can use them safely.


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## jeffthewoodwacker (Dec 26, 2007)

I have taught kids as young as 9 years of age to turn pens on a mini-lathe. They are always closely supervised and safety is stressed from the moment they enter the shop. All the equipment in the shop has power lockouts installed when not in use.


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## ryno101 (May 14, 2008)

I just found this post, and want to thank all those who posted for the sage advice…

I'm the father of 2 boys, my oldest is 4 and the little one is 18 months old. I sincerely hope they develop an interest in woodworking, and will encourage them to spend time in the shop with me. It's my favorite "free time" activity, and I'd love to be able to share that with them.

As it is now, my 4 year old wants to come into the shop and see what daddy's doing, but we have clear rules (Sit quietly in the chair, don't touch any tools, ask any questions you want) and they are reinforced every time. Any time he wants to visit in the shop with me, I make him tell me what the rules are, and remind him when I see his attention waning.

I am trying to teach him proper methods using his play tools, i.e. when to use the wrench, hammer and screwdriver, and he's got the dexterity now to be able to use his screwdriver to properly turn a screw.

He is like many pre-schoolers in that his interest only lasts a short time, I can't think of a single time where he's lasted longer than 15 minutes in the shop with me, and he's not quite as interested as I want him to be… but I don't want to force the issue, and will take the time when I get it on his terms.

I think I agree with most folks about starting with hand tools, particularly the "non-sharp" variety, and moving up from there. We need to know our kids well enough, and gauge their seriousness, willingness to listen, knowledge of the skills, and ability to understand the dangers before allowing them access to any tools. It will be certainly be more than 2 years before I feel comfortable letting my son use my tablesaw! Knowing him, I'm thinking by the time he's 20 or so!


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## motthunter (Dec 31, 2007)

there is no magic number.. It is about maturity. My feeling is that if you have a concern that causes you to ask this about a specific kid, then most likely that kid is not ready.


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## SCOTSMAN (Aug 1, 2008)

When there are kids in my workshops I turn all machinery off from the mainswitch so as they cant be turned on simple as that kids and machines dont mix well if you have a kid or two on the other hand and are willing to teach I would say any teenage child could be encouraged to use most tools with supervision mybe not bench saw though even with supervision that's just too much to expect. however wood working should be fun Alistair


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