# Toy Box Lid Support Problem



## RookieWorker (Nov 18, 2011)

Guys this is my first post here because I need the advice of some guys with more knowledge on this stuff than me! I just finished building a toy box this week. I ordered 2 of the toy box lid supports from Rockler, both mount to the back wall of the box and up to the lid. I went directly by their installation instructions, but I didn't realize the instructions are for a 3/4" back wall. When I installed them on my box the lid will not close all the way, likes about 4 or 5 inches from closing! I know this has something to do with my box not having a 3/4" back wall but I don't know how to make these supports work for my box?? My box has a 3/4" plywood back wall and it has a piece of 1X4 Poplar trim all the way around the top attached to the back of the box. My piano hinge is mounted to the poplar trim. What can I do to make the supports work? I can post pics if it helps.


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## Rick Dennington (Aug 27, 2009)

Well…..some pictures would help a lot, so we can get a better understanding of what you're trying to explain….A couple of things… First you said that the box *"didn't *have a 3/4" back wall", and then you said "my box* has *a 3/4" back wall".....Which is it? And is the 1×4 Poplar just for decor? A piano hinge? I don't get that…. If you use the lid supports (I take it you're talking about the kind where the lid won't slam, but are soft-close), then you don't need the piano hinge, or the trim. You mount them directally to the lid and back, attach with screws, and that's it…..Thatr's why the lid won't close….Take off the trim, take off the piano hinge, mount the lid supports like you're supposed to, and you're good to go….Post pictures for clarification…..


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## RookieWorker (Nov 18, 2011)

I see how that could be confusing! What I mean is the back wall of my box is made from 3/4" plywood but with the 1X4 poplar trim around the top, which is where the lid supports are mounted, it makes that area thicker than 3/4. The problem with just removing the trim is that its glued and nailed. If I try to remove that its going to damage the project pretty heavily I am guessing. I need to find a way to make these work without removing trim if possible. For a lid this size I don't think it would be smart to remove the piano hinge and rely only on the supports to hold the lid on the box. Another note, the back of my lid is mounted flush with the back of the poplar trim. I am going to try and attach one picture of the box before the trim was added to the back and one after so you can see how it affected the thickness and maybe you can help then. Thanks!


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## Builder_Bob (Jan 9, 2010)

Are you sure this isn't an Escher toy box?


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## RookieWorker (Nov 18, 2011)

Have to excuse my ignorance, no idea what an Escher toy box is?? So i guess the answer to that is no??


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

You can make this work by lowering the mounting point on the back of the box.


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## RookieWorker (Nov 18, 2011)

The piano hinge is mounted to the poplar trim, yes. I also read on another forum that it might be possible to take a small piece of the poplar I used for the trim and mount it to the under side of the lid where the supports attach to offset the thickness of the back wall? would that be an option?


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## ShaneA (Apr 15, 2011)

The piano hinge is not needed. If you mortise the needed space for the soft close hinge, you can get back to the needed 3/4". However, I have used these hinges on several toy boxes, while they are nice, I find you may need more than two for a box of any size. They are kind of spendy. I have used another hinge from woodcraft, the name escapes me. it comes in a left or right hand version, and also acts as a lid support. Costs about $7 I think. That type of hinge can be used with piano hinges or the rockler soft close ones. Make sure all the pilot holes are centered and proper depth. I am not too impressed with the screws that come with them. But in plywood they should be fine.


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

Use the lid mount position as the center point-rotate to meet your new back. (Lower on the back panel.)
Don't try to over complicate this…


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## Lifesaver2000 (Nov 17, 2009)

Rookie, is this the item you are using?

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=410&filter=toy%20box%20lid%20support

Or are you using the self supporting hinges?


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## RookieWorker (Nov 18, 2011)

Lifesaver, that is it!


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

Is it this support?
(From Rockler website)

EDIT: Heheh - I shoulda' refreshed my browser sooner-Lifesaver beat me to it! :-D


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## RookieWorker (Nov 18, 2011)

Yes, Thats the lid support I am using.


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## ShaneA (Apr 15, 2011)

That is the hinge I was referring to, it will need the piano hinge. I thought you had the soft close that go for like $38 a set.


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## Lifesaver2000 (Nov 17, 2009)

Ok, I wasn't sure since a couple of people have suggested that no hinge is needed, but the picture on Rockler clearly shows it being used with a piano hinge.

Disclaimer: I am sitting around at work with nothing to do, have never used these things, and have just been researching your problem as a way to pass the time. But, I was always good at geometry 

I think DS521 has the answer, but I think the idea of adding a block to the underside of the lid might work too. The problem I see is that if you used the stock dimensions for how far up the lid, and how far down the back to mount the support, then the support isn't working at the angles it is designed for. So, either adjust the mounting distances as DS521 illustrated, or add or remove material to get the correct 3/4 difference in the mounting planes that the unit is designed for.

For those still interested, here is a link to the mounting instructions. I am assuming you are mounting it to the back, although it can be side mounted also.

Wow, that was the longest post I've made on here in a while.


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## RookieWorker (Nov 18, 2011)

So DS251, are you thinking if I just leave the mount position on the lid as is and move the back wall mount position down it will work? Makes sense, and that would be alot easier than some of the other suggestions if it works! Guys, please have a little patience with me! I picked that user name for a reason! I am just a weekend/after work DIYer buiilding this for my son. First project here!


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

You might lose a couple of degrees in the fully open position, but, for the most part this should work well enough for all practical purposes.

For the record, I hate fiddling with these things… it's enough to drive one mad!
Glad to help, though.

Be sure to post your finished project so we can have a good look at it!
Looks great so far.


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## Rick Dennington (Aug 27, 2009)

Ok…now I've got it…..I thought he was talking about those expensive "no slam or soft close" hinges that cost a fortune…..The picture is clearer now….I've used those hinges DS251 showed, and I don't like them at all…I used them twice on 2 boxes for my grandkids….PITA…Yes…..use the piano hinge and those, and you're set…...The other boxes I used the expensive ones….they work so much better and easier to mount…
I know the Rookie was getting nervous….I could hear him sweating…..


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## RookieWorker (Nov 18, 2011)

DS251, and everyone else, I really appreciate all the help! Looks like my Google search for a forum sent me to the right place today! Great information! I will be out of town until Tuesday so I will try some of these suggestions then. I will be sure to post finished project, but don't be too hard on me!


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## RookieWorker (Nov 18, 2011)

Do you think it will take away too much opening space?? If so, do you think adding a small piece of the 1X4 poplar to the under side of the lid to mount to to offset the back wall thickness would be a better solution for opening space purposes??


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

Wudhvn turns out to be right here… The opening loss is significant.
I plugged into some CAD and here are the results…









You lose 27 degrees… Not sure if that still works for you.

(I told you these will drive you MAD! heheh)


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

58 degrees open versus 85 degrees with the original specs.


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## RookieWorker (Nov 18, 2011)

DS, I don't want to seem like I want you to do all the work for me, but on the new mounting position what are the measurements that you come up with. For example the original was 3" up on the lid, 1 1/8" down on the back wall. Do you mind sharing that?


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

3" on the lid and 1 27/32" down the back.

I added it to the drawing, but the resolution of the photo was degraded after I posted it and you can't read it at all.

Sharing is what we do here on LJ's :-D 
Hope you stick around and share too.


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## RookieWorker (Nov 18, 2011)

One last question for the day. If i did go the route of adding a small piece of the 1X4 poplar to the lid where the support mounts and used the 3" and 1 1/8" measurements, would that work and allow the lid to close? Also would the opening maintain its 85 degree opening or something close to that? I think the 58 degree would be ok, just curious. Thanks guys, and have a great weekend.


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

I've been confused about how adding the block to the lid helps, ever since it was mentioned. 
Not sure I can help you with that one.

EDIT: Seems like you'd need to add 3/4" to each direction for it to work. 
(e.g. 3 3/4" on the lid, 1 7/8" on the back)

Still not sure…


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## Lifesaver2000 (Nov 17, 2009)

Ok, I'm not where I can draw this out or do any experimenting, but I will try to explain what is in my head.

If you look at the installation instructions, there is a drawing labeled "Back Mount Installation - Back Hinge" and I am assuming that Rookie is using that type of installation. Now, looking at that picture, imagine that the lid is moved to the right 3/4 inch. This it what is happening when the extra 1x poplar was added to the back of the box. If this is done, but the original dimensions are used, then the support has to be bent back farther in order to attach. This what I am thinking is causing the support to not allow the lid to close.

My thinking was that adding a 3/4 block to the inside of the lid for the support to attach to would allow the support to attach with the original setback dimensions, and have its correct angle, since it would put the faces of the inside back and inside lid back in to the relative locations that you see in the diagram.

I don't have a way to check it, and it might be that the angle that the lid swings down might have to be allowed for, since the actual pivot point is still farther back than how the support is designed

That is why in my post above, I did say that I thought DS251's suggestion is probably the way to go, but was throwing this out there as an alternative.


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## Lifesaver2000 (Nov 17, 2009)

You know, I have thought about it more, and just adding that extra piece on the lid won't work, because when it is closed that will have the lid down in to the box an extra 3/4 inch, causing the same problem that you started with but in a different way. You would probably also have to adjust the positioning too.

Looking at it again, if you want to be able to get the whole 85 degrees open, then WudnHevn's plan would probably be the way to go. That has the support in the position it was designed to be.


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## Builder_Bob (Jan 9, 2010)

If the lid opens less than 85 degrees, the supports will carry more weight when latched.


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## sawdustphill (Jan 13, 2011)

You are probably mounting the lid supports to high on the back of the box 
I had the same problem when I built my first toy /cedar chest I finally realized the instructions are not
in line with the real world application.
Hope this helps

Phillip from Ky.


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## RookieWorker (Nov 18, 2011)

Ok guys, I just got back into town. I could not wait, so I went on out and experimented with this problem. I mounted the top of the support at the 3" called for in the instructions and moved the bottom mount down from 1 1/8 to close to 2" down the back wall. This did allow the lid to close, but it cut down the opening space pretty bad. Not to mention, I am not sure the supports are going to hold in this position. I went back and added the 1X4 poplar block to the lid and mounted to that, and as mentioned by Lifesaver, same problem as I started with. Its looking more and more like having to cut out spaces for the back wall mounts is what I am going to have to attempt. This scares me to no end!! This is my first build, and my tool selection is that of a rookie as well. I am having nightmares thinking of ruining my box trying to cut these spaces. You guys tell me whatever you can to help me get these spaces cut without wrecking my box or give me suggestions for other supports that can accomodate a thicker than 3/4" back wall???


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## Lifesaver2000 (Nov 17, 2009)

Sorry to hear that nothing is working for you. If you could list what tools you have available, somebody might have an idea on how to make it work for you. I know that if you had a router, it would be a simple matter to turn the box on its back and route out that recess. All you would have to do is set the bit for the right depth and use something as a guide. Without a router, you might have to use something like chisels.

One thing to consider is if your solid trim around the top of the plywood is wide enough that the support will be able to attach to it, and not have a gap below the trim. If I am looking at the diagram correctly, you would need WudnHevn's notch to go down about two inches. If you are using a 1X4, then you should be ok, but you will want to be sure.

Let us know what you have to work with, and I bet somebody will have an idea for you. - probably better than any I come up with!  -


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## RookieWorker (Nov 18, 2011)

Sorry I have not updated this in a while! I went with the suggestion to cut out a recess in the back wall to mount the lid supports to. That has worked like a charm! I just put the last coat of Polyurethane on it last night. I will try to post pics next week. Its not a masterpiece, but not too bad for my first ever build!


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## Lifesaver2000 (Nov 17, 2009)

Great news. Thanks for letting us know that it turned out. I know I learned something from this too.


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## RookieWorker (Nov 18, 2011)

I did have to order another one of the lid supports. I had originally used 2, and those held the lid Ok. It was just when lowering the lid, those last 6 inches or so the supports were not holding. I ordered one more, and I think thats going to do the trick.


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## RookieWorker (Nov 18, 2011)

Guys, I know I said a while back I was going to post some pics, but its been really busy and time just slipped away from me a little! I have more pics at home I can post later of the toy box in my home in use. This thing has turned out pretty good I think! Now keep in mind this is my first ever build. It was a learning experience and I enjoyed every second!


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## Lifesaver2000 (Nov 17, 2009)

Glad to see you got it all worked out.


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## StaplerJ (Jan 25, 2017)

Rookie, could you please show the mortises which you had to create for the lid support as I have the same problem with the back wall thickness? Thanks!


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