# Table saw injury help



## diverlloyd (Apr 25, 2013)

So I was reading the tablesaw injury study thread http://lumberjocks.com/topics/226193 and with everyone saying the data is incomplete let's make it more complete. Give us your injuries,how often you use the saw and if it has the guard on it. I will start it off.

Craftsman zip code saw I took the guard off.

5 kick backs 3 due to having a friend want to me "help"in the shop. 1 by a board deciding it wanted to explode into pieces on the saw and 1 due to stressed wood. 
0 injuries touching the blade

I'm not sure how we should answer the how often we use the saw should it be once a week or something like that or by number of cuts pre selected time period. Or guide lines then simple answers 20 or less cuts a week would be a few 20 -100 would be average 100 + would be lots. I think number of cuts pre week would make it better and more statistical.

I will add this out of me feeling like a idiot and doing this but my worst injury on the table saw was a cut that could have used stitches but was caused by the metal tape measure on the fence. It had curled up on the end and I ran my hand over it to stick it back down. Instant cut across my finger now I know that those tapes measures are sharp or at least mine is a razor blade if it curls up.


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## StumpyNubs (Sep 25, 2010)

I've never had an injury on the table saw. I have had a couple of kickbacks, both on my old saw without a riving knife. But I have never had a kickback on my SawStop. I attribute this to a simple fact- I use the safety features. I leave the guard on for most through-cuts. The fact that my guard has a dust collection feature is an incentive to use it, for sure. But when I do take it off, I put on the riving knife. Again, the fact that these changes are fast and easy (they don't require tools) is a big factor.

People are lazy. Even if we want to be safe, we will take some chances. I bet 75% of woodworkers use their saws without the guards simply because they are too lazy to put them back on. It's just human nature. If it's a hassle to swap that guard on and off, they aren't going to do it. So I always tell people to buy (of make) an aftermarket splitter. That way, they will be safe from kickback (for the most part), which is the biggest cause of table saw injury.


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## diverlloyd (Apr 25, 2013)

My guard is on when doing through rip cuts everything else is done on a sled. So I would say 80% is done on a sled with out the guard. My guard isn't bad to put on though it just clicks in place and has one knob to tighten it to the back of the saw. As soon as I'm done with rip cuts I take it off but I also use the saw as a assembly table so the guard would need to be off for that also( I put a piece of tempered hard board on it to work off of). I think if people respond it maybe a interesting thread to see what tablesaw has caused more harm. Like the old craftsman saws that had the blade further to the back compared to some of the saws with the blade closer to the front of the saw. I had one of each and was much more comfortable with the blade further to the back of the saw. 
Maybe we should change it to injury with guard or without guard or the how often the guard is on. For my kick backs the guard was on.Mine the springs that hold the kick back paws down didn't put any pressure down. I had to put them on the opposite side of the paws. To make the downward pressure the paws need.


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## mojapitt (Dec 31, 2011)

The last one of these reports I saw showed how many injuries were to novis users. At that time it was roughly 60%.

Once again, know your tools and follow protocols.


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

+1 on what Monte ^ said. The guy who never used a TS is the one most likely to be injured. I know because I was one of them once and the flat spot on the side of my left thumb is a reminder.

I've always maintained kickbacks are by far the most common injury, which as Stumpy noted, even a SS will not prevent without the safety features. BTW, of which the most important is between our ears.

I do not use a guard but I do use a splitter. I also cut those unruly looking boards on my BS.

So I think one of the biggest factors is sizing up your lumber and thinking about the cut you're doing BEFORE you turn the saw on. This comes with experience.


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## Manitario (Jul 4, 2010)

I see several patients a year with TS injuries in the ER where I work as a physician; it's a busy ER; I estimate we see ~60 patients/year with TS related injuries out of the population of 100000 that we service. Every injury I see, I make a point of asking all the details; What was he doing, did he have a blade guard, was there a riving knife or splitter, did he use a push stick?

The majority of the injuries are on middle aged and older men with years of experience. Injuries have ranged from minor cuts to complete amputations. In every single injury I've seen, there was some lack of safety issue; no blade guard, no splitter, no push stick etc. Only ever seen one person with an injury from kickback and it was very minor.

Moral of the story; experience doesn't seem to be a factor in TS safety but 100% of the injuries I've seen involve some lack of safety equipment.


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## diverlloyd (Apr 25, 2013)

Guys your getting away from the subject 
List your personal accidents this is to see what accidents have happen to you personally
Complacency would be the cause of most accidents


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## diverlloyd (Apr 25, 2013)

Here 
0 accidents touching blade
5 kickbacks 4 with guard on
0 hospital visits
1 cut on fence tape(it it really sharp)
I say I make 70 cuts on it a week


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## papadan (Mar 6, 2009)

I've got 2 table saws. My Ridgid is about 17 years old now. I have had 2 kickbacks on that saw, the first was caused by tension in the wood and the second was a helper (wife) not listening when told not to help. No stiches or ER visits on either and guard in place on both occurances. No cuts on that saw. Second saw is 6month old Ryobi. No kick backs and one cut thumb resulting in 11 stiches last week. The blade guard and riving knife are removed from this saw. The knife does not line up with the blade and prevents through cuts because the wood hits the knife, the guard is a very poor design that attaches to the riving knife, can't have a guard without the knife. That said, the cut I received last week was 100% my own stupidity, you don't sit in a chair in front of a tablesaw and cut a piece of wood! Depth perception and reach are drastically changed in a sitting position. I know it and was just too stupid to stand up. I will be installing a guard onto the Ryobi saw as soon as I can get one.


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## nkawtg (Dec 22, 2014)

0 injuries on the saw
2 kickbacks, minor.
1 whacked thumb from a hammer blow.


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

I've been hit in the waist twice from kick back.Hard enough to tear my shirt and draw blood.Ive owed two cabinet saws and at least four different job site saws.Right now I just have one tablesaw.No guard on my saw.

I have been cut by a worm drive skill saw.I also have shot a nail and staple through my fingering different jobs.But these tool were in my hands for many hours on a roof under extremely hostile conditions.


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## paratrooper34 (Apr 27, 2010)

> I see several patients a year with TS injuries in the ER where I work as a physician; it s a busy ER; I estimate we see ~60 patients/year with TS related injuries out of the population of 100000 that we service. Every injury I see, I make a point of asking all the details; What was he doing, did he have a blade guard, was there a riving knife or splitter, did he use a push stick?
> 
> The majority of the injuries are on middle aged and older men with years of experience. Injuries have ranged from minor cuts to complete amputations. In every single injury I ve seen, there was some lack of safety issue; no blade guard, no splitter, no push stick etc. Only ever seen one person with an injury from kickback and it was very minor.
> 
> ...


It may be off topic, but it was interesting and comes from a doc actually treating TS injuries.
Thanks, Doc…good read.


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

> I see several patients a year with TS injuries in the ER where I work as a physician; it s a busy ER; I estimate we see ~60 patients/year with TS related injuries out of the population of 100000 that we service. Every injury I see, I make a point of asking all the details; What was he doing, did he have a blade guard, was there a riving knife or splitter, did he use a push stick?
> 
> The majority of the injuries are on middle aged and older men with years of experience. Injuries have ranged from minor cuts to complete amputations. In every single injury I ve seen, there was some lack of safety issue; no blade guard, no splitter, no push stick etc. Only ever seen one person with an injury from kickback and it was very minor.
> 
> ...


WADR your statistics will normally be skewed to the worst necessitating an ER visit.

I still maintain kickback injuries (although minor) far outpace flesh to blade injuries.

That's just my opinion based on personal experience backed up by other ww'ers.

It would be impossible to prove statistically.

Funny thing is, as far as drawing blood, I injury myself more with hand tools than anything!

Bottom line: ww'ing is a dangerous hobby. Injuries will occur.


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## ScottM (Jul 10, 2012)

This is pointless!


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## diverlloyd (Apr 25, 2013)

How is it pointless we learn from mistakes wether it's our your someone else's. we have already learned that help
on the table saw is bad and not using the guard.


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## papadan (Mar 6, 2009)

ScottM, your post was pointless, If one person remembers what I said and it saves them an ER trip, then nothing is pointless!


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## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

Minor injuries….who really cares. Put a bandaid on it and keep going.

Trips to the ER with stitches and amputations….those are more important and are more often caused by blade contact.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

I do not rely on statistics. The point of any discussion is to avoid becoming a statistic in the first place. It doesn't do any good to look at statistics after the accident has already happened. As for myself, I've been using saws for over 50 years and have never once been bitten by a saw blade; band saw blade; yes, but never on a table saw. I've had a kickback or two. I don't have a riving knife or a blade guard on my Jet 3hp saw. I do find a lack of power on a saw contributes to kickbacks. The typical contractors saw with 1-1/2 hp will slow down when pushing through a piece of wood and if there is an encountered knot or a twist in the wood, the saw will slow down. When that happens, the tendency will be to try to turn off the saw requiring you to let up on your control of the wood. With a more relaxed hold on the wood, the saw blade will pick up speed and a violent kickback will occur. I believe a saw with 3 or more hp is much safer than an under powered saw, either a contractor's or hybrid saw.

BTW, I use my saw almost every day and probably make between 50 and 100 cuts per week. One of the most dangerous cuts one can do on a table saw is to do a rip cut, using the fence when the piece should have been made using the miter gauge. I have made that mistake having the work rotate CCW and riding on top of the blade.

As I've mentioned on previous posts, I keep focused on what I'm doing on the saw. Never use a saw when tired, drunk, distracted or if a proposed operation doesn't look safe.


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## mojapitt (Dec 31, 2011)

I have had a couple minor dings. Both from lack of patience and complacency. They were a few years apart. But after the 2nd one, I very consciously change the way I operate the tablesaw.

My worst injury in the shop didn't involve tools, but moving slabs. 2nd and 3rd worst was with King Arthur head on right angle grinder (no longer use King Arthur because of it).

I have had a couple bruises from kickback, but not enough for hospital visit.


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## diverlloyd (Apr 25, 2013)

Because a injury is a injury. The other people complained that it was inaccurate since it didn't have the stats for injury not reported. So if you get a minor injury and then it gets a bacterial infection what is it? I guess it doesn't matter people will complain to be complaining. How about post the stats then complain instead of doing nothing for the thread besides complaining. I didn't ask for opinions,how to stop it, what caused it, or if it's minor or not. This thread was for statistics.


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## ScottM (Jul 10, 2012)

I apologize for my comment. I just don't see how any true statistics can be gathered from this, but I guess I'll have to keep watching this to see how it will show anything useful…


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## hotbyte (Apr 3, 2010)

There might be some valuable experiential lessons but, due to self-selection, no more valid or complete stats than the other thread's infograph.



> I apologize for my comment. I just don t see how any true statistics can be gathered from this, but I guess I ll have to keep watching this to see how it will show anything useful…
> 
> - ScottM


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

The problem with relying on statistics is the results can be interpreted in many different ways, most often in favor of the one quoting the statistic. The statistic that spells out the difference in safety between the Ryobi saw and the Sawstop saw obviously favors Sawstop. That is why I don't put much faith in statistics. All I know is; I am not going to become a statistic.


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## diverlloyd (Apr 25, 2013)

No problem thanks for the apology. If everyone would put the stats down then we could see what the kickback to blade to skin is and if machines that have the blade further back are safer. Also a percentage of how many times cuts are made to accidents and I mean any. I'm sure no one has thought about the fence tape measure being sharp but it is or that the spring in my guard were on wrong causing the teeth not to catch anything.I would also like to hear of any injuries that have started as kick back and the worsened. As in I was using a push stick and a stress in the board caused a kickback and my hand hit the blade. Asking on here we are getting actual wood workers answering so it would be real world stats. I understand a not all injuries are going to send you to the ER but things happen. Instead of having statistics gathered by a company that will take them and use them when only if it profits them we can have stats from actual wood workers who use the machines and don't mind sharing them. We can all learn from at least one thing here as long as we cooperate. I now check my guard by sliding a piece of wood under it and pulling back to see if the paws catch it. If I didn't have kick backs I would have never noticed it was not working out of the box. Now I check things to make sure they are working and I don't let people help me when I'm using the tablesaw. I'm sure someone reading this will now check their safety stuff out and it could save a eye,a finger, a flesh eating bactrial infection(cousins wife picked some of that nasty stuff up from a nick) or even just some blood and bruises.

Monte I didn't even think of accidents when moving things around. Just shows that shops are a dangerous place.


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

One bad technique I've seen and done myself on a underpowered job site saw is when the blade starts to stall in a cut.Guys I've worked with including myself have a reaction to pull the wood a bit forward.I guess it's just natural to do this since pushing stalled the blade.
So if the wood is pitching the blade and stalling it and you pull it forward the back of the blade starts the kickback.There is usually not enough time to react to what's happens next.
Unless your Floyd Mayweather and can duck fast.


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

Bring back the Unifence 

Table Saws: Why the British Think We're Crazy (Popular Woodworking Magazine)

Cheers,
Brad


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## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

The information given by woodworkers in this thread is anecdotal evidence. It is not statistics.

How many who have complained about the statistics have read the CPSC report, how the data was gathered, how it was interpreted and the various tables.


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

> How many who have complained about the statistics have read the CPSC report, how the data was gathered, how it was interpreted and the various tables.
> - Redoak49


I have read most of the CPSC reports and transcripts… And as I mentioned earlier, here is a good breakdown of it from Popular Woodworking:



> Rather than record every instance of every injury to every individual in the United States, the NEISS uses a small sample of cases from about 100 emergency rooms to project statistics to the population at large. Doctors in these ERs make notes and enter product, injury, body part and diagnostic codes and the results are weighted and projected. It works in a similar way to exit polls during elections; a small sample that's easy to manage and count is examined and applied to the entire population. It's a useful tool, but it isn't perfect and the numbers that come out at the far end are predictions, not facts.


And my favorite tid-bit from that article:



> Once again, the database sample is too small to provide estimates for many other items, but there was one item that caused about the same number of finger amputations as table saws, and about 10 times the number of total accidents. In addition, this product caused enough finger amputations among children under the age of 18 to generate an estimate of total occurrences, about 45 percent of the total. Five children a day are enduring finger amputations due to this hazard. The name of this product?
> The door.


(Source: Table Saw Injury Numbers in Perspective)

You really should browse through the NEISS database... there are some truely amazing and funny 'accidents' recorded… try searching for 'toilet' or 'pillow' 

Cheers,
Brad


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## diverlloyd (Apr 25, 2013)

Unix those are good reads and I think that is why I like the old craftsman table saws with the blade far to the back. Less chance of a kick back like the euro fences and that you have room to sit work pieces down table itself without being close to the blade or a hand if you slip.
So far it seems like everyone who contributed has had a kickback or two. 
Thank you to the ones who have contributed you are being very helpful.


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## ArtMann (Mar 1, 2016)

I am sorry to say that this little survey will not provide much insight. It is a very limited audience and the survey participants weren't chosen randomly. The sample size will also turn out to be waaaay too small. Anecdotal evidence has proven to be unreliable in study after study. The study I read that was done from data collected by the government from emergency rooms suggests that Sawstop is wildly exaggerating their accident statistics. It also suggests that other machines, like jointers and band saws, are equally likely to be involved in accidents.

Having said that, I have used a table saw for 40+ years and I still have all my fingers intact. Long ago, when I was inexperienced, I received bruises from a few kickbacks but that hasn't happened in 20 years or so.


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## diverlloyd (Apr 25, 2013)

Thanks for the input since I have a lot more insight after this this little survey into unreported accidents. I for wouldn't trust any government study just like all other studies they are made to look like they want you don't know if the study you read was the only one or one of fifty made and that's the one they used to back up their claim. This thread has had participation and you can see what is going on. Like I said before people said the other thread survey was incomplete since it only showed ER visits. We could do the same type survey on what brand oil most people use that get there oil changed at a quick lube place but only ask customers that use penzoil quick lub place. I would trust this little survey of my woodworking peers who all use different equipment and took the time to comment over a random government survey. I have taken a couple of the random surveys paid and unpaid and most of them are bias questions are worded to direct you toward a answer and then most answers will be the same just worded a bit different. So I waaaay appreciate your opinion and the answer to the survey questions but the same can be said about any survey or study performed. At least this way you are getting info from real woodworkers of different experience levels and from guys and girls that we see are interested in the hobby and not a random person who thought it would be a good idea to grab a saw blade to see if they could stop it( true story a classmate tried to stop a slow horizontal metal band saw blade and hacked his hand open on it).


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