# Reliable, accurate squares needed



## beevis (Jul 30, 2010)

I'm in the market for a very good, precise square. I'd also like a miter square. 
Vintage or new.

I've been using a 12" hardware store Stanley combination square for years to set up my cuts and I think it's responsible for a lot of problems in my work. For example, I went to build a shooting board today, and realized I have nothing I trust to set it up perfectly square or for 45. I haven't been able to glue up an accurate picture frame right off my chop saw.

I have a little 3" Starrett but it's not long enough for a lot of things.

Willing to spend maybe $100 per piece. Any recommendations?

I see some nice looking Bridge City stuff on eBay.

Thanks!


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## TungOil (Jan 16, 2017)

Starrett. Will start true and stay that way after we are both long gone.


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## mski (Jul 3, 2007)

Woodpeckers made in USA


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## johnstoneb (Jun 14, 2012)

Have you checked it to see if it is square or not?

To check it lay it against a straight edge (edge of you table saw is good. Draw a line flip the square over and line up against the line. If it is in line with the square you are good if it doesn't line up. then Your not square.


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## beevis (Jul 30, 2010)

> Have you checked it to see if it is square or not?
> 
> To check it lay it against a straight edge (edge of you table saw is good. Draw a line flip the square over and line up against the line. If it is in line with the square you are good if it doesn t line up. then Your not square.
> 
> - johnstoneb


It fails that test. It's "pretty damn close" but not perfect. I'd say off a fat 32nd" over the 12" blade.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-square-a-combination-square/

Lee Valley sells good quality squares of many types.


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## ssnvet (Jan 10, 2012)

Perfectly square squares are hard to come by. I have a 12" Starett that I paid $90 for and even it is off just a smidge. My most accurate square is a really old Stanley and I'm not even sure where it came from or how I got it.

We have an inexpensive General Tools digital angle gage, and even though it has a plastic body, it's very good.









The problem is that even with 0.05 degree resolution, you will see that as a gap on the square test described above.

At some point you just have to say good enough.

123 blocks can be had at discount machinery tool outlets and they are about as close to dead on as you can get without spending big bucks.


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## Carloz (Oct 12, 2016)

Forget about fancy super expensive tools. Cheap drafter's plastic 45-45-90 and 30-60-90 triangles are the best option in many cases. At least they are very accurate.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

I have the 8" and 12" squares from Bora that are dead square. They are like $15 or something. The design is clumsy though for some work. However, I do trust them for checking square, and as a bonus, if one hits the floor and is toast, who cares. I got a Woodpecker 6-4 on sale for cheap, and it's very nice to work with. I'd love the 12" one, but the Bora is good enough considering the cost of the Woodpecker.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

I limped along with cheap Sears/Stanley squares for too many years and thought anything better was unnecessary. Then I got an old Lufkin combo square and it ruined me. Since then it's been a steady decline into Blue Point, Brown & Sharpe, and Starrett. The Blue Point (Snap-On) is made in Taiwan and is a high quality tool but unfortunately something has gone wrong and it went out of square. I'll have to look into fixing it or maybe just sell it. Recently got my first Starrett squares and they really are the very best, oozing quality, especially the forged heads. But the Brown and Sharpe are a close second, their only detriment is the edges are left a bit sharp making it less comfortable to hold. Not a deal breaker, 60 seconds with a file and all is well. What you get for your money: a square that is square, that has outstanding fit and finish. A rule made of hardened tool steel with photo etched numbers and lines that are inked and easy to read.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

Don't forget to ad a drafting triangle or 2 to your list. Drafting triangles are accurate and cheap. Colored ones are easier to see.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

I remember reading an article written by a well-known woodworker recalling his days as an apprentice. The master craftsman made all of his tools himself, with one exception, a Blue Spruce try square.

I thought, good enough for me. Then I looked at the price and moved on.

If you want the most gorgeous try square and don't care what it costs, get one of the Blue Spruce squares.

For me, if it's square, that's good enough.


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## Planeman40 (Nov 3, 2010)

First of all, for woodworking you don't need the precision of a machinist's square. You can't work to those tolerances in wood.

Second, It is easy to check the accuracy of a square. Just set it up on a straight edge and scribe a vertical line. Then* flip the square over and see if the line aligns with the square edge*. If it does, the square is square!

Personally, after 60+ years of machining and woodworking, I use a Harbor Freight combination square for both. I have checked it and it is *SQUARE*.


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## beevis (Jul 30, 2010)

Thanks everyone.

I'm the type who has (recently) developed a zero tolerance attitude towards any tool that is less than awesome. 
So I very appreciate quality and thoughtful design.

I'll look into Starrett, Browne and Sharpe, and Woodpeckers. All look good.

What's your tool of choice for 45 degree layout? For example building a miter shooting board? Just the combination square? Seems the short fence on those are problematic.


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## Woodbum (Jan 3, 2010)

Starrett, Incra, Woodpeckers. IMHO


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## beevis (Jul 30, 2010)

I'm liking the Woodpeckers - even though looks a little goofy IMO.


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

https://www.harryepstein.com/index.php/catalogsearch/result/?q=squares

https://www.harryepstein.com/index.php/catalogsearch/result/?q=miter+square

Good stuff ^^


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## Andybb (Sep 30, 2016)

i have a Woodpecker 24" t square but my Harbor Freight combos are just as accurate and a whole lot cheaper.


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## BurlyBob (Mar 13, 2012)

After buying and using a Woodpecker 6" try square I got the 12" and am very satisfied with both.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

With all do respect I have to disagree with planeman40. Of course I just a newbie @46 years of woodworking. The two things that most improved my woodwork was the addition of a jointer and accurate tool for setting up woodworking machines.


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## beevis (Jul 30, 2010)

Thanks guys. 
Waho - wow, those are some great deals on PEC stuff. Interesting site, never heard of that before.


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

Money well spent Ben, good folks to deal with as well.


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## beevis (Jul 30, 2010)

What about the machinist's square set? Made in India, generic brand?


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

I have an Asian made machinist square and it's square. They are fixed blades so more resilient and easier to make square from the get go. But it's the only machinist square I've owned so take my experience for what it's worth.


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

> What about the machinist s square set? Made in India, generic brand?
> 
> - Ben


I'm not sure, maybe email them and let us know what they say.


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## EricTwice (Dec 9, 2016)

even a cheap square can be right.
To check a square for squareness

Take a wide flat board with a straight edge
set your square against the edge with the blade fully extended and mark along the blade. turn the square over 90degrees and check it against the mark. If the blade follows the line exactly. it is square. If it does not, your error is 1/2 the angle of deviation,

(This works for all squares.)


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## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

Incra:









The holes are pure genius!

M


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Incra:
> 
> The holes are pure genius!
> 
> ...


It's a tool for marking. Not a useful substitute for a try square, double square, or much else. I bought one of those 20 years ago and have maybe used it a dozen times. If I lost it, I sure wouldn't bother replacing it.

It's funny how your posts all are short zingers that seem as if they are supposed to be the defining answer. Like the thread about router lifts when you posted a photo of an iGaging digital height gauge with the comment that you don't need a router lift, all you need is one of these. You've still never answered my question as to why your repeated reference to a post about your laser engraver actually links to a post by Madmark, when you are Madmark2.


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## Lemwise (Sep 17, 2016)

There's a metal shop across the street from where I work and they made me a 4mm thick stainless steel square. It was made on their CNC milling machine and it's off by 0.03mm over the length of the 35cm leg. The square also has a diagonal cross brace (with my name milled in it) and that will ensure it will never go out of square. It didn't cost me a thing because it was a scrap piece of steel and one of the guys made it for me after hours.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> There s a metal shop across the street from where I work and they made me a 4mm thick stainless steel square. It was made on their CNC milling machine and it s off by 0.03mm over the length of the 35cm leg. The square also has a diagonal cross brace (with my name milled in it) and that will ensure it will never go out of square. It didn t cost me a thing because it was a scrap piece of steel and one of the guys made it for me after hours.
> 
> - Lemwise


I can't figure out how this will help the Original poster. Are you saying he should have a machine shop make him one?


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## ColonelTravis (Mar 19, 2013)

You can pry my Starretts from my cold dead hands, but I also use an Empire from HD that's just as accurate.


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## eflanders (May 2, 2013)

IMO Accurate tools help to setup tools properly to do accurate work. I could not afford Starrtt, so I bought Mitutoyo.


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

You can dress the lands inside your current square so that it is "perfect" again. That's how I handle it. I have a framing square that is dead on, after dimpling it at the vertex. By "dead on", I mean I can do the flip over method and run lines with a .3 mm mechanical pencil and see about .1mm fattening over the 22.5". I don't use it for framing; I have another that is "good enough" for that. I use the thing for making chests (like my carving tool chest) that I want to have a nice sliding fit for the drawers, and not have them rattle.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

They say you can fix them but I don't know how many times I "fixed" my cheap combo squares and within time they would be out of square again. It just gets old.


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

> They say you can fix them but I don t know how many times I "fixed" my cheap combo squares and within time they would be out of square again. It just gets old.
> 
> - Rick M


Fair enough. I use my compound miter saw for cutting unless I'm away, then it's a speed square. The rest of my stuff is made by Starrett, for the fine stuff. Again, except for marking long things less than 2', where I use that tuned up framing square.


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

1/32" over 12" is really not that bad!

I prefer a high quality drafting triangle similar to this description in Popular Woodworking, much lighter, and very easy to check for accuracy. 
The drafting triangles I use are from my days in high school ….. way too many years ago, and they are still good to go!


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

I lucked into a set of 4 engineers squares squares.

Check PEC blemished cosmetic seconds on ebay. Good stuff from what I've heard if you don't mind minor dings scratches and paint chips.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

It's easy to test the squareness of your tool. Just draw a line, flip it over…...

This is why we need something on LJ akin to the Apple "I agree" button. And, like Apple, when you click that you agree, it should pop up a dialog box that confirms you agree that you agreed.

Agree to what? You should have to agree that you have read the thread in its entirety and are confirming that what you are suggesting has not been suggested prior in the thread.

The penalty? The ridicule of LJers. Shame be upon you.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

Oh yeah, and +1 on PEC tools. Every bit as good fit and finish as Starrett for half the price (I own both).


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

You can also check one square against another. For example I can put my Lufkin against my Starrett and there is no light between them, dead nutz. If you see light then one or both are out of square, that's why it's nice to have something high quality so you can check your equipment and other squares against it.


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

Yep. That why, for me, stumbling onto a set (4,6,9,12) was awesome. They were only B grade but dead square is dead square. Especially when you have multiple references.


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## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

I'll just reiterate, Starrett is the bee's knees. Brown and Sharpe, Mitutoyo and PEC all are excellent as well. For a $100 budget, this is what I'd order.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> I ll just reiterate, Starrett is the bee s knees. Brown and Sharpe, Mitutoyo and PEC all are excellent as well. For a $100 budget, this is what I d order.
> 
> - HokieKen


Can you provide any data, or links to reviews, to support that? Even anecdotal evidence such as telling us that 2 out of 5 PEC squares you bought had to be returned?

Without it, what you've given us is a personal opinion. You're certainly entitled to it though.


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## SignWave (Feb 2, 2010)

I often use an Empire e2994 square. It's very affordable, accurate, and holds up well. It's only 7", so I'm thinking about getting the 12" version to go with it. I can understand the desire for a starrett, but in my shop, things get dinged, and the empire gives me square lines.


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## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

> I ll just reiterate, Starrett is the bee s knees. Brown and Sharpe, Mitutoyo and PEC all are excellent as well. For a $100 budget, this is what I d order.
> 
> - HokieKen
> 
> ...


Sorry, I should have clarified that it was my opinion. I only own one PEC square - a 6" double square blem - and I love it. As I said, they make excellent tools. I just haven't found anything that I like better than my Starretts. It's really a matter of feel and balance and I prefer the readability of the satin chrome Starrett blades to any other I've seen. But yes, it's my opinion.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

I knew what you meant, Ken  Starrett is certainly the de facto standard for quality tools. Just as the old saying goes, no one ever got fired for buying IBM - you can not go wrong buying Starrett.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

I own a few brands (Craftsman, Sears, Stanley, Johnson, Brown and Sharpe, Lufkin, Starrett, & Blue Point) and will confirm that of those, Starrett is in fact the bee's knees. If anyone would like to send me a PEC for comparison I will be happy to evaluate. I am a certified bee's knees testing lab so that isn't just my opinion.


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## brtech (May 26, 2010)

I'm a square addict.

If you have used a Starrett (or Browne and Sharpe or Mitutoyo) combo square, then you will know the difference if you pick up an Empire or HF square. They are much smoother to operate. You can get (or align) an HF combo square to be square, and the rules are accurate enough, so it is, or it can be made to be, accurate enough to use. But the better squares are just a lot nicer to use.

I've used full spec PEC and PEC blems. They are in between an Empire and a Starrett. Not as smooth, but smoother than the less expensive brands. Square out of the box though.

I also have a Lee Valley 3" double square that is ALWAYS with me when I'm in the shop. A really great tool. I picked up a 6" PEC blem double square. Nice, but nowhere near as nice as my LV 3".

For fixed squares, I have the 6" one piece Woodpeckers square, and I think it's one of the best tools I own. Dead nuts accurate, very useful size. There was a sale on Shop Fox 12" fixed squares and I have a couple. Useful for lots of things, but not really great tools. I also have a couple Bora "squares" that have detents for several different angles. Very handy in the right circumstances.

You really should have a decent speed square. It really is the right tool for a lot of simple tasks in the shop. I have the aluminum Swanson. And you need a decent framing square. I have an older one that is really accurate. I picked up an HF that was way, way off, I punched it a lot closer (you can adjust a framing square a little by using a center punch along the diagonal where the two sides meet to widen or narrow the angle, but eventually threw it out.

I do have a couple drafting triangles. VERY accurate and you can throw them around, drop them or otherwise abuse them and they remain square!

And I have a small set of Taiwan engineers squares. They didn't turn out to be any more accurate than my Woodpecker 6" square, so I do most of my machine setups with the red guy. The smaller one gets used occasionally.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

I would pay good money for an accurate framing square that I didn't need to ping twice a year to make square again.


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

• 6 & 8 sided Polygon Rafter Tables

• 304 Stainless Steel Construction
means rust free precision, durability

• Guaranteed to be square
to within .003 inches

http://chappellsquare.com/product/framing-squares/

Chappell looks to be of good value for a framing square.


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## beevis (Jul 30, 2010)

Guys, many thanks for all the feedback. I never expected this to turn into such a prolific thread.

I've ordered a Woodpeckers 8" square - found a good deal on a used one. Will start with that. I like that it's fixed, and has the registrations on the shoulders. My 4" Starrett will suffice for a lot of the smaller scale stuff where I need the adjustment. 
Might pick up the 12" Woodpeckers version as well. And probably eventually a Starrett combination square.

Never thought I could be so excited about a square, and I don't even have it yet.

Thanks again!


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

Congrats on a fine purchase Ben.

It's all in the lay out. Using sharp chisels and listening to LJers will yield good results:


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## beevis (Jul 30, 2010)

Nice square!
Thanks!
This is a great forum and I am happy to be a part of it.


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## BlasterStumps (Mar 13, 2017)

To each his own on tools.

I just grabbed my little 50⍧ 6" square that I picked up in a junk store and laid it on a piece of wood, scribed a line then flipped it over and made a second line over the first, as suggested in some of the posts. I used a fine lead and could not see what appears to be anything more than one line. I repeated the process only this time using a marking knife to make the line pressing very lightly, no difference. I'm happy, happy. I'll have to check some of my other squares to see if they are on.


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## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

Good choice Ben. Woodpeckers makes high-end stuff. Normally the price isn't justified FOR ME PERSONALLY but if you got a price you're happy with then good for ya!


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## Lemwise (Sep 17, 2016)

> - Lemwise
> I can t figure out how this will help the Original poster. Are you saying he should have a machine shop make him one?
> 
> - AlaskaGuy


If you want a square that will stay square until the end of time the only way to go is how mine was made.


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## dschlic1 (Jan 3, 2013)

Try Taylor Tools. They have an eBay store. They sell PEC tools which are made in the USA. Very high quality without paying Starret prices. For example I picked up a 6" precision machinist square for under $30. Excellent as a reference to setup my equipment and my other squares.

Be careful using the straight edge and line test. If your straight edge is not straight to the tolerance of the test, the test is invalid.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> - Lemwise
> I can t figure out how this will help the Original poster. Are you saying he should have a machine shop make him one?
> 
> - AlaskaGuy
> ...


Doesn't the cross brace prevent you from checking square on the outside of a corner?


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

> To each his own on tools.
> 
> I just grabbed my little 50⍧ 6" square that I picked up in a junk store and
> - BlasterStumps


Unless your junk store has an unlimited supply of high quality 50 cent squares it doesn't help anyone. I have a 6" Lufkin that I bought for $2 that is dead nuts square. Does that help anyone?


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Unless your junk store has an unlimited supply of high quality 50 cent squares it doesn't help anyone. I have a 6" Lufkin that I bought for $2 that is dead nuts square. Does that help anyone?


But is it the bee's knees? I assume you ran it through your testing lab.


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## Lemwise (Sep 17, 2016)

> Doesn t the cross brace prevent you from checking square on the outside of a corner?


Yes, it does. I had it made mainly so that I have a reference square to check other squares against. I also use it to set up machines. But I can still use it to check inside corners. It's also a good square for laying out an interior in a boat. For outside corners I have a 5mm thick aluminium square without a cross brace that the same metal shop made for me.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

> But is it the bee s knees? I assume you ran it through your testing lab.
> 
> - RichTaylor


Bees ankles, which is pretty close.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Bees ankles, which is pretty close.


Better than the bee's armpit for sure. (I had to keep it clean)


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## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

OP's already made his call but I just thought I'd throw this out there for anyone interested based on comments about "junk store" squares. If you find a quality combination square that's vintage (Starrett, Fowler, Brown and Sharpe, Mitutoyo etc.) that is all original and has a steel head and the blade is straight (make sure blade matches head) then in my experience, with a little elbow grease, you can bring it to a life-long user if it's not already. I won't go into the processes for tuning a combo square with a file, there's plenty on a quick google search, but it can be a great way to get a great square for pennies on the dollar. If you're lucky you can get the bee's knees for the price of its armpit. ;-)


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## BlasterStumps (Mar 13, 2017)

Yes it does! It helps ME. I read thru this thread, saw the original poster had the info he wanted and decided I needed to know if my go-to square was square and I found out it was. Is that alright with you? Or, do I need to have 9000+ posts under my handle in order to put something on a thread that is OK? Some people post because they want to contribute or learn, or just join in, others seem to post because they want to simply impress others. Me, I admit to a little of all four. Mostly I just like to knock about with like minded people. Hopefully though, i don't want to ever be the type of forum participant that feels they need to correct other poster's content on a constant basis. That's just not my style.



> To each his own on tools.
> 
> I just grabbed my little 50⍧ 6" square that I picked up in a junk store and
> - BlasterStumps
> ...


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Yes it does! It helps ME.


Well, isn't that basically what Rick said? I'm pretty new here, and no one has ever suggested my opinion was less valuable than anyone else's just because they have been here longer. I can also say that Rick M is a good guy and not one to be nasty to people just to be nasty (those types do exist here though). Perhaps you just took it too personally.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

Thanks Rich.

Blaster maybe I misread your intent. In every tool discussion there is one guy who can find anything at his local flea market for 50 cents, all day, everyday; and if you spend good money on a good tool then you're a sucker. I mistook you for that guy. I've found good deals too, but I did a lot of looking to find them.


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