# Please look at this subpanel! Need help!



## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

LJ's, I'm not trying to start yet another electrical argument but I have a new saw that I can't power up and my normal sparky is out of town. The responsibility is my own but I'd appreciate some help with this (I hope) simple problem.

Overall power: I have two power supplies going to my shop: 1) the one that was in place when I bought it (40A serving outlet boxes and lights) and 2) a second 60A service I had installed by a professional (three 20A circuits, one to my dust collector and lathe (110V) and one each to my tablesaw and bandsaw (240V).

The issues: When I had the 60A subpanel installed, I asked the electrician not to install the second 240V receptacle (for the bandsaw) because I wasn't sure what kind of plug it would have. Per my request, he just coiled the wires in the box and placed a solid cover over it.

The development: I bought the bandsaw (another forum here) and wired it up and connected it to the receptacle. Dead. Popped the loadcenter cover & I see that the outlet is not connected to the breakers BUT all breakers seem to be occupied (?). I have a Fluke meter, a general knowledge, and a generator to light the shop when the power's out.

Can anyone tell from these pictures what he did and how I connect the locking 240V to the breaker? I realize that this is the internet. I just want to have an idea before I call the electrician. Many thanks, my friends.


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## Beginningwoodworker (May 5, 2008)

Cant help ya there, I am only a carpenter.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Oh I see it Cessna! There's a whole bay empty. However, I know the panel is rated for only 60A, I'm only using 40A, and all three 20A breakers look occupied! If one of the 20A were empty, It'd be a no-brainer. Thanks for looking!


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## Jack_T (Feb 6, 2010)

I agree, half full. I don't think he put the breaker in the box yet.


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## HerbC (Jul 28, 2010)

It is not uncommon for a panel to contain breakers who's total rated load exceeds the rating of the panel. You need a double pole breaker rated for 20A each side to connect the 220v recepticle. A qualified electrician will have no problem handling the job.

Good Luck!

Be Careful!

Herb


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## skywalker01 (May 19, 2009)

First off any info I give you is coming from an amature and I make no claims to knowing loads about the way electrical works. I have connected and serviced my own electrical for years and years and use extreme safety when doing so.

Looks like you have an unconnected line up top that is yellow and another on the bottom. Also it looks like your breakers are all used. If your bandsaw is to be 220 then you need a double pole breaker of an amperage that will not pop it. Your manual should say what you need minimum. I would think you wouldn't need anything larger than a 20 amp double pole but I'd have to know how much your bandsaw draws. This is actually pretty simple just make SURE that the power to this box is completely OFF before you touch anything. DOn't try to do this with it on. And by this I mean the power that is supplying this box not the power that is in this box. If you're unsure then go to your main panel and shut off the main Breaker which will shut off absolutely everything( unless your power is coming straight from a power line or something). Hopefully you know where this power is coming from. If not get and electrician out there. 
If it is that black and red that are coming out of the bottom then you would connect one to one side of the double pole breaker and the other to the other side( it matters not which one to which one). It looks like he's already connected the white/ ground to the grounding bar so you should be good to go once you do all that.


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## bubinga (Feb 5, 2011)

It looks to me like you may have room for more breakers on the left side ,,the red and black wires hanging down, is a circuit that he left . Unhooked.
Electrician could fix you up in half an hour. I think !!!
Where have you been dude.?
Did you see my 1957 radial arm saw I picked up, and my blog ?


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## Karson (May 9, 2006)

It looks to me that whoever put in the circuit breakers didn't do it right. They look like 110 Volt circuit breakers. One with the black wire and one with the red wire.

You need a circuit breaker the has a strap across the levers so that when it fails it will pop both sides of the line.

To me it looks like you have a sub panel that will only accept three breakers. 110 require one slot and 220 requires two slots, So you are full in my estimation.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

You guys are stars. I've got to run but I will read everything in detail shortly. Thanks so much!


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

I have a 200A panel in my home and the total Amperage of the breakers adds up to 400 or something like that. I never really thought of it until you mentioned it.


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## Bluepine38 (Dec 14, 2009)

The reason the total amperage on your breakers exceeds the total amperage on the panel is that you
are never, unless you get overrun with kids, going to use all the electrical lines, breakers, or tools at once.
Just tell the electrician you are going to use the brand and type of your electrical panel and he can bring
the correct breaker and install it with no problem.


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## HerbC (Jul 28, 2010)

Examining the panel photos closely:

1. Panel is an eight circuit panel. There is one more empty slot on the right bottom and four empty slots on the left.

2. The top two breakers appear to be connected to separate 110 v circuits. The red wire appears to be from the 12-2 cable in the front connector at the bottom and the black wire appears to be from the cable behind it.

3. The unconnected red/black wires on the bottom are for the 220v circuit I assume.

I would get a DIFFERENT qualified electrician to install the new 220v breaker. The reason I'd get a different electrician is that I see a white wire connected to red wire on the left hand side and I'm concerned about that circuit and would have the new electrician examine it and ensure it is safe and correctly wired. If it is he will use color coding tape to recode the white wire (white is for NEUTRAL) to an appropriate color for hot conductors.

Good Luck!

Herb


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

HerbC: I was looking at that red/white wire and wondering also.


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## bubinga (Feb 5, 2011)

HerbC I think you nailed it all on the head right there.
I did not see all that other stuff at first

Bertha
There shouldn't be, just use any color wire anywhere, well I guess one can, but it's not acceptable
Get a different guy this time


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## Jack_T (Feb 6, 2010)

I agree with the above. In the third photo lower left do I also see a black and white splice? And is that black wire from the same source as the red and white splice or am I seeing things (been known to see things, especially after eating the worm).


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

All above I had considered. It made no sense to me why I wasn't seeing a double stacked breaker for the 240 with two hot wires coming from it. I expected to see either one (for the existing saw, expecting to add a second for my bandsaw) or two (expecting the second to await my bandsaw). It looks to me like he's used two 110's each with a hot to power a single 240 receptacle (the tablesaw). Thanks for all of this. This guy came recommended from work. I'll get someone else out.


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## reggiek (Jun 12, 2009)

Not being a pro, but as an informed amateur….I would wonder where the 240 is for the TS you mention.

I do not see a double throw in this load center? If it is 240 as you say…it requires 2 hots instead of one hot and a neutral - that is why it requires a double throw breaker.

Second…I agree with the concern about the red wire being spliced to a white? Did the sparky double up the two hots onto one breaker for the 240? That would cause it to fail quite a bit under load - the breaker is to protect the wire from overheating due to running too much amperage through it….with one breaker handling the load for 2 wires…you would end up with 1/2 the rating (mathmatically - but not always true in practice as the breaker might fail because one wire is under the load rating say 20 amp…but the second is running an additonal 10 amps…the 20 amp breaker would fail under this overload (or should)). I would agree with the recommendation to have another pro review what has been done…and to finish what you want…even though expensive…it is cheaper in the long run to make sure you do not have a catastrophic electrical fire.


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## jeter (Apr 26, 2011)

By looking at your photos you post it, I can see that you do not have a ground bus bar in your sub-panel; it's a must on all sub-panels. It shows that the neutral bus bar is being shared with the ground bare copper wires. On the main service panel its ok but not on a sub-panel. You need to add a ground bus bar and transfer all the bare copper wires to the new ground bus bar.

2nd You have three empty slots on the left side of your sub-panel; you need to purchase a 20A 220 double pole breaker and install it in the empty slot. Purchase one that's the same brand, as the one in your sub-panel know, keep them all the same. The black wire goes attach to the breaker and the red wire goes attach to the breaker as well on the 220 breaker, you see two screws where the wire attach to. Attach black wire to one screw, white wire to other screw and the bare copper wire to the new ground bus bar.

The 20A breaker will take two slots on the left side, leaving you with one slot left, for a 15A or 20A single pole breaker. Disconnect the white neutral wire from the grounding bar, it is not use for 220 application. Just cap it and leaved inside unused.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

This is all so very helpful and I'm learning a lot. I will take a few more pictures and make a wiring diagram. Once the new sparky comes out (I'm bringing in a commercial guy this time), I'll post the changes & see how he did! Thanks again, Al.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

One last question, the previous electrician did the following:

1) ran a new underground cable into an existing conduit
2) installed new access boxes to the conduit
3) provided and installed the subpanel box
4) provided and installed all the breakers
5) wired everything & at least got my TS running

He charged me $650 for the day's work (two guys). Even if I have to get a new guy out, this still seems like a fair price, given the fact that I watched them sweating out there literally all day. He offered to come back if I had any problems (an offer I'm not going to take him up on).

I'm I crazy? Should I go after the guy? Should I at least tell him he screwed up?
I've had plumbers and HVAC guys destroy my checkbook because I know little about both. I have a tendency to overpay for these types of services and I greatly admire the trades. Just curious.


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## Jack_T (Feb 6, 2010)

I think that it all depends on what the new electrician saws about the work that was done. If he says everything was done wrong and he has to do it all over again and charge you again then maybe it is worth your time for the satisfaction. Just remember that your time is worth money. If you do decide to "go after him" in court the burden of proof will be on you and you will need an expert (licensed electrician) to come to court to testify for you.

If it is not that messed up or just not complete then I would let it slide (after it is corrected).


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

I side with you, Jack. I've been ripped off more times than I can count but at least this guy worked hard doing his half-correct job. Much more than others have done.


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## Grandpa (Jan 28, 2011)

Here we go again…ha these guys are correct in many things…all the above. The red wire ties to the white wire…can't do that. The white commons and the bare grounds are on the same buss…can't do that on a sub panel. The breaker for the 220V is not in this panel. It will go on the left. When you get the breaker (if you do this yourself) then not only get the same brand but there is sometimes a model number. In my Square D panel there are 2 or 3 Square D circuit breaker models available but only one will fit in my panel. Something I noticed that hasn't been mentioned here is the service coming into the panel. This goes I assume to another panel and there is a breaker that switches this panel off. Is this wire the correct guage for the breaker? If he tied into the main on the other panel then this wire will probably be too small and it will burn up before the main trips to protect it. Get a new electrician and ask him or her to look at the service that comes into this panel. The service wire has to be compatable with the breaker that protects it. I think you will sleep better at night. Peace of mind is not very expensive. I look inside many panels. 2 or 3 most weeks. for a non electrician this is a lot. I will say that this panel of yours looks like it was wired by an amateur. The panels I see are very neat and tidy and this one is not. That alone wouldn't make it bad or unsafe but it doesn't look professional.


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## Belg1960 (Jan 3, 2010)

As a pro this panel was DEFINITELY NOT installed professionally, the list of problems above is a good start of the errors made by your hard working guys. I would add since I'm not on site to inspect it all myself, that the neutral wire is undersized it can be undersized by one trade size but for a subpanel feeding machinery I would rate it 125% of the main feeders. Since the feed is brought in by pvc conduit there should be a 4th wire (green) to provide the ground for that separate ground bar to allow it to bring ground back to primary ground location (your 200 panel)
I believe they used the white wires to extend the original feed you had in the garage to one of those recp below the subpanel, which if it is a separately derived power system should not be inside this panel at all. You can imagine if you shut off your 60 amp subpanel breaker thinking that your entire panel was then "dead" it would be a big shock if you then touched those "live" secondary feed wires.
I WOULD DEFINITELY HIRE A PRO TO TOTALLY GO OVER THIS WITH A FINE TOOTH COMB. 
I tried to write this as simply as I could, without the technical terms so to help out. Just from the questions you posed you should not be messing with this box for your own safety. Look forward to seeing what the on site pro has to say. Pat


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

I appreciate all the comments more than you know. When I wire something, I make it neat and tidy. I've always liked the look of airplane wiring. When I opened the box, I was a little surprised with the rat's nest. As much money as I spent getting the home's electric inspected, I don't want the shop to be a weak link.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Thanks so much, LJ's. I just did it myself. I separated the neutrals from the grounds and added a ground bus to the buried rod. Saw runs great. Thanks again!


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## patron (Apr 2, 2009)

that's great news al
and getting all this help is priceless

now to work
we are a hungry bunch
and need constant new projects to devour


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## teejk (Jan 19, 2011)

not to "burst the bubble", but a few questions for the pros here…

Bertha mentioned a ground-rod…my understanding is that on sub-panels, that ground has to go back to the main-panel ("single-point grounding"...mentioned up above by Belg). If I'm correct, then that means 4 wires to the sub-panel (2 hots, a neutral and a ground, ALL from the main). No separate ground rods unless they are tied to the main grounding point.

Funny as it sounds, I think that "single-point" thing also applies now to satellite dishes, telephone, cable TV, etc. even though they don't draw 120/240v power from your main but require a ground (for static, lightning, etc.)...they all have to go back to your property's main grounding point.

He did isolate the ground from the neutral (required on sub-panels other than there used to be an exception for sub-panels within the same enclosure…I think that is still there, maybe not). As long as we're on the "free" advice section (don't worry Belg…if we keep going, you'll get more work as people realize that the NEC ain't as easy as it used to be and will hire a pro), isolating the neutral and ground on newer panels means you do not use that green screw that comes with it.

last thing I have…that supply wire doesn't look very big…8ga maybe? Depending on the length of run from the main to the sub-panel, that is probably enough if the house breaker is only 50a.

looking forward to the pros beating my head in!


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Hey Teejk, these are excellent questions and I just aborted a long response because I want to go home (in the rain). I echo (as do others secretly by PM) your concern about the gauge of the feed to the sub. I'll gauge it tonight but I'm too tired to tell you the whole story (and it's a long one). Suffice it to say, I really appreciate everyone who took the time out to offer me advice in this matter. It's invaluable to have a group of friends to turn to, if only to sound halfway intelligent to the sparky. Al


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## teejk (Jan 19, 2011)

Al

I'm not a pro but did just wire our new house and my shop…NEC is changing so fast that even my "pro" was wrong on a few points (I bought a book just to check on him). I have come to rely on my inspector ("anal" but that's good since he seems to be very up on the code and loves to explain things in a nice way).

pop back with the length of run from your main panel to your sub-panel. without knowing that, hard to tell whether you are "good to go" or not. I think you did get some value in that your price included conduit so if you decide you are under-sized, pull a new wire. My pro ran 2-0 (maybe 0-0) aluminum 150' to the shop from a 100a breaker in the house. 125a "main lug" (not main breaker) SqD Homeline sub-panel cost me $35 and I have 20 slots to play with…breakers cost $4 for single poles, no more than $8 for the double poles that feed my machines.


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## Grandpa (Jan 28, 2011)

You are correct about things changing so fast. It makes me wonder how we survived in the knob and tube days. In my book (not the latest) it says that in main panels the neutral and ground MUST be bonded. In subpanels the neutral must "float". Neutrals cannot be connected to the ground and the neutral cannot bond to the panel itself. It makes no mention of any provision in the same structure. I suppose that could have already changed or it might not have been put in place when my book was printed (2002). I do find that you MUST have a separate grounding rod for each building "when buildings are supplied from a common service or two buildings served from a centrally located service to prevent objectionable currents on grounding paths between the buildings. When I wired my shop I had to run about 150 feet from my meter so I used the formula supplied in the manual and I came out on the border as I recall. I went to the next larger size since I was on the edge. I ran 3/0 copper in a conduit. Never know what you might want to change next year. That worked well for me. My book shows that 8 ga. copper should only be used with a 40A breaker max. There is a formula that I don't have at my fingertips that uses the amperage desired at the panel. The distance in feet is used and that is all I remember. Too long ago. It was easy to calculate using this. I just remember I was right on the line so I chose to go to the next larger size wiring.

My book says you can use #2 copper or 1/0 Aluminum for 125 amp service conductors. It doesn't mention any distance in this place.

There is also a big difference in bonding and grounding. We often see this incorrectly used. Most people think these terms are interchangeable and they are not.

I am seeing systems brought to a single point ground. The communication people are using a clamp that attaches to the circuit breaker panel to attach their ground to. this seems to contradict the grounding rod for each building that I mentioned above but that is what my books says. This is a system with one circuit breaker panel.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

That 40A/8ga quote makes me nervous. I keep saying I'm going to check my box but I keep getting side-tracked. I think I've got 6 @ 60A, so I hope I'm OK. My shop subpanel is NOT grounded with the house, rather I've got a second driven pole behind the shop. The security feed runs along with the main feed but no ground. I'm not sure of the ramifications but I did separate the ground from the neutral bus based upon LJ tips. Needless to say, if my handplanes burn up, I'm going to be pissed. If the shop goes up, it'll probably get my tractor too, which will be a sad day.


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## teejk (Jan 19, 2011)

grandpa

I wish a sparky would chime in here!

Between the electrician here and the inspector here, nobody agrees on grounding requirements for an outbuilding. My sparky ran 4 wire to the shop (meaning the ground comes back to the main in the house and is tied to the 2 ground rods that serve as primary ground for everything). Yet the satellite inter-net and Dish guys used separate ground rods. Inspector said no-no unless I tied those ground rods to the primary ground rods (something about energizing/inbalance in the field between the grounding points) but then again those are within the same enclosure.

and I hope they comment on wire gauge too…my book says 8ga (90C rated copper wire) is rated for 55 amps. Then we get into "line-loss" which will lower the amerage depending on distance. Al says he has 6ga copper and my book says good for 75a (90C rated copper wire) and before taking in distance.

Final point…you ran 3/0 copper???...you are going to need a guard dog at today's copper prices! LOL


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

No kidding, 3/0 copper would break the bank around here!


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## Grandpa (Jan 28, 2011)

3/0 copper nearly broke the bank here. I got it on a sale that was like a presidents day sale or something.

I think there is a difference in branch circuits and service conductors. Service conductors use the next size up from branch circuit for the same amps according to the chart I have here. I am not an electrician. I just don't like the smell of wiring getting hot.


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## kpo101 (Mar 15, 2011)

First of all I do a lot of wiring with my electrical buddies from pulling wires, installing recept. and making up the tie ins in the panel. Now if this 60amp sub panel and is more than 50-60ft. from the main panel you have a problem. You need a main breaker in this panel in the event of a fire or anything that may happen in your shop ( you can't cut the power off from there in the shop). If you had to conform to any electrical standards, this would get a "F" or a total rejection from inspectors. If the guy that did this calls himself a professional, then tear up his business card and call someone else in and watch him laugh. All jokes aside it was done wrong in the first place and the remedy is only a phone call away. Sure it gonna cost a bit but think of your shop and the tools in it. Mine come right after my closest relatives and before my good friends.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Kpo, you have a very good point. The breaker to my shop is two 60A double poles in the pantry of my home. Nothing whatsoever in the shop which is a good 200 ft from the house. I'm an ex-cajun myself, 11 years in the Big Easy. Thanks for the comments, Al


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## lewis62 (Mar 6, 2011)

AGGGH! do not use that guy again. Find some one whose is licenesed and with references, local building dept has registered contractors list.Worts case get building inspector to check over work.Make sure it is safe.


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