# Curious about pricing



## shopdog (Nov 9, 2008)

I just finished a built in bookcase job, and I've been paid…so this thread is just to give me an idea of how others price similar jobs. I've been building these type of projects for 20 years, so I'm not a newbie…just curious. I figure with so many talented LJ cabinetmakers, we could help each other with price estimating.

Here's the Sketchup…it's 11.5D x 80"w x 96"H, birch veneer ply, pre-primed finger jointed pine face frame, 1/4" MDF backs.









and the site










The install took 2 days, and I did it alone. It was staightforward…
Installed a level sub base (screwed to floor)...floor was off by 9/16" side to side
Set the 6 boxes on the base (3 lowers and 3 uppers) I can't handle 8' high boxes in my shop.
I fastened a cleat to the wall about 7' up, and screwed the upper boxes to it. It is super solid.



















Then I added an outside piece of ply, and scribed it to the wall and base molding
Added the faceframe, scribing the right side piece to the wall and base. Ornamental base, but easy enough.

It wasn't floor to ceiling, no electrical outlets, so that made it easier.
I filled all nail holes, screw holes, and caulked it to the wall…and sanded. It's ready to paint, but I didn't have to paint it.

Logistics weren't bad…3 miles each way (Brooklyn traffic and Brooklyn parking)
Small elevator to the 3rd floor.

It took me about 5 days from initial meeting to completion. Entirely done alone, except a friend helped deliver.

Here's the finished project



















So, what would you charge? Just curious.
I'll tell you what my price and expenses were later on.

Thanks for reading all of this…


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## renners (Apr 9, 2010)

This should be interesting, it might even give me an insight as to why I'm constantly driving around with the fuel light on!


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## ryansworkshop (Dec 2, 2011)

$1500-$2000. Maybe a touch more because of location. NYC

Also, five calendar days or five working days. If five working days, you need to shave sometime off. Not to nit pick, just seems like a little to long.


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## shopdog (Nov 9, 2008)

Ryan,

That's 5 working days. That includes 2 site visits/meetings, shopping, and Sketchup.
Remember…Brooklyn traffic and problematic parking.
It was 2 full days installing.
I did the entire job alone, and I have a small basement shop.
I can't imagine doing it any quicker, but if I charged your price, I'd find a way to do it in 2-3 days


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## JGM0658 (Aug 16, 2011)

It all depends on the tools available Ryan, if you had a CNC this would be a 3 day max job and of course the price would be $2000, gotta pay for that CNC. For a shop like Steve's I think a 5 day turn around is reasonable. I would still go at least with the $1000 charge though. This is a ******************** load of dadoes to cut and screw. So how much did you charge?


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

$1200-$1600 depending on type of material.


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## ryansworkshop (Dec 2, 2011)

I have a small shop too. Under 200 sq.ft. No CNC either. You asked, I give it my best shot. Yes, on the traffic.

I just looked a the images and shop (sketchup). Took a guess, based on me and my costs. An off the shelf unit that size goes for around $1000 with no delivery fee. So, it being custom made, delivered and installed, I based my price on that.


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## mtenterprises (Jan 10, 2011)

Price depends upon the neighborhood NYC price, yea you can get that. Niagara Falls price…... no one could afford to have it built here. Honestly.
MIKE


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## shopdog (Nov 9, 2008)

@JGM…no dadoes…all screwed butt joints. No glue. Backs aren't rabbeted in…just glued and 1.5" 18ga finish nails. Just basic stuff. I could make it fancier, but my client base wouldn't pay. They are 99%ers.

@ mike…there's a lot of $ in Brooklyn, but my client is a single, working woman


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## shopdog (Nov 9, 2008)

I could post the price now, but I don't want to affect the pricing.
This post isn't a gloat, or a how-to blog…It's all about what we charge for our work, and hopefully to get comfortable asking for more…
or to let us know why we aren't getting those jobs that we overbid.

I will let you know that her initial response to my price was NO. She admitted knowing nothing about woodwork, but that she figured on $2000…to which I said no.
I'm glad that you guys weren't bidding against me


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

This just goes to show that everyone is setup differently and that markets will bear different costs.

If I am doing this here in Phoenix with NO finish, they get glue, screws, blind dado joints, CNC fabrication.

$1100 installed.

Job takes 1 hour to mill, 3 hours to assemble half day to install. Unit goes out in three tall sections that are screwed together in the field.

Contrary to popular opinion, the CNC makes QUICK work of this job. 1 hour milling time INCLUDES programming the machine (about 10 minutes with the right software).

Did I mention I would make about a 60% margin?


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## Jim Jakosh (Nov 24, 2009)

In my little shop, with that type of construction, I would not do it for under $1200- unfinished, no delivery. It looks lkie all you had to do was layout the hole pattern and then make gages to hold the shelves at the proper level and screw them in. It seems that it would be very wobbly until you get the back on. If I made it, I would dado in the shelves and use glue and screws. You are going into end grain of plywood or pine which is not the best if there is any swaying before the back gets on. If that is what the customer wants, that is the way you make it. My price was for here in Grand Rapids. In New york, everything is higher, so I'll bet you can get much more.
Thanks for getting our minds going this morning!!!!!!!
Good luck, Steve…...............Jim


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

I ran this with adjustable shelf where possible and a full 3/4" plywood back.

This optimizes on 5 sheets of 3/4" plywood. (5 at $45/sheet for Paint Grade Birch = $225)
Cutting time is about 40 minutes. ($83 CNC time)
About $35 for shop suppliies such as glue, screws, shelf pins and banding.

The rest is labor to assemble, deliver and install.

I would prefer this in a Cherry wood ply and a dark cranberry stain. This is also laid out to fit my dining room (Left hand vs. right from the OP)

$1100 Paint Grade unfinished, installed
$1600 Cherry wood finished, installed


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## shopdog (Nov 9, 2008)

$1100/1200/1500/1600/2000…wow!!!
$2800-3200…getting closer

@ Jim,
I make the boxes in the shop on a big outfeed table. Everything clamped and square. 1 5/8" coarse screws into tight birch ply engrain. Ideal…NO, but quite strong. I glue on the backs and face frame. It wouldn't take a sledge hammer stress test, but it'll hold books. 
I told you this wasn't a how-to blog  
I worked for a friend in a cabinet shop for years…we had space, great tools, a loading bay, truck, schleppers.
We turned out a lot of nice product…so I know how it should be done.
Now, I'm a one man shop. I'm mostly a deck builder these days, but then I have a skilled assistant.

@DS251
A CNC would make the milling job very easy, but if you charge so little, how you gonna pay for that thing, or even the software for it.

Well, so far I've learned one thing…Don't move to Phoenix or Grand Rapids  
NYC is a good place to make money at woodworking.
You don't even have to be good at it, as long as you show up on time, are honest, and clean up. If you're good at it too, they will pay, and tell all their friends.

I started this thread because I was wondering if I charge too little. So far, I don't think so.


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## JonathanG (Jan 18, 2010)

I think this just goes to show that each market is different. I am following this thread out of shear interest, as I have no experience in this area.

I'd be curious to see if anybody else in a more similar market to NYC will chime in here. Maybe somebody in an affluent part of Chicago or Los Angeles, or Boston, or maybe even some mountain towns here in Colorado such as Vail or especially Aspen etc. where the cost of living is closer to Brooklyn?


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

Phoenix is a very competetive market.

The cabinet you built is straight casework and has very little labor compared to most custom peices we produce. The trick to making money is keeping a full schedule.

The $83 CNC time is what I would pay to lease someone elses machine. They make a decent profit on the machine at $110/hr. They make money by keeping the machine scheduled. 
CNC machines and even software is on a long term lease and cost about what you might pay one semi-skilled laborer each month.

Did I mention I would make about 60%? This for a half to one day's work.


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## shopdog (Nov 9, 2008)

DS…
I'll tell you exactly what I spent…

I had some birch ply already, but not much.
My total material expense was $241 48 
+ incidentals (glue, etc) + gas + electricity
+$50 to a friend that helped me deliver
+$10 bribe to the building super (he let me use his flatbed dolly)

Let's call it $350.
Not much, but that doesn't mean that I should charge $1100. I'm 61, and want to retire soon.
One thing is for sure, at $1100, I'd get every job that I bid on, and not enough time to build them. I don't want to work that hard. I'd rather get 1 out of 4, and charge more…much more


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## childress (Sep 14, 2008)

When I used to do cabinetry, I priced everything by the linear foot. 80" is 6.6ft, so that makes it 7 ft X 2 for a total of 14 linear ft. It's X's 2 because you gotta think of kitchen cabinets, there's a lower and upper. Same goes here, they are just connected. I would have probably started this at $200 a ft. unfinished, installed making it $2800 they way it sits in your pics.


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## shopdog (Nov 9, 2008)

DS,
You couldn't install that in 1/2 day, even if you paid a laborer.
I cut & attached the face frame on site…in a bedroom. Scribed to moldings and wonky walls.

Well, maybe I'm moving too slow these days…or maybe it's all those cigarette breaks, hanging out the window.


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

It's not how you sell, it's how you buy that determines how much you make.

When I "buy" this cabinet for $343, selling it for $1100 seems like a pretty good deal.

I suspect the five days Shopdog spent "buying" his product cost him more than I would sell mine for.

If you buy it for $2500 and sell it for $2800, you're not gonna get very far very fast either.


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

I wouldn't install the face on site. All I'd have to do is trim the baseboard and set three boxes plumb then walk away.

You might notice I banded my faces instead of using a full frame. But even if I did a full frame, I would preassemble on my bench using common stiles. and the install takes 2 to 3 hours at most.

EDIT: My construction method allows me to scribe to wonky walls too as the back is not set against the wall but is dadoed into the end panels 1/4" away. I would scribe the ends to trim it out.

P.S. While Shopdog is finishing his five day project, I've done four more just like this one. It actually works fairly well.


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## shopdog (Nov 9, 2008)

OK…
I originally asked $3900, but she countered with $2000…we wished each other luck, and said goodbye.
I liked her, and felt like doing some shopwork for a change, instead of just decks…so I emailed her back 2 days later saying that it was too bad that she had such an unreal price expectation for custom cabinetry. I offered to come down to $3600. She accepted. It's rare when I go after a job that I already lost…but it worked, and I'll try that ploy again.
The funny thing is that she paid me $3700…a $100 tip.

We are all in different situations:
Geography…good to live amongst upper middle class
Economic…I'm not too hungry at this point in my life
Competition…I suppose there is a lot around here, but enough work for everyone.

Still, maybe you should try asking for more $. The worst that could happen is they say no, and you revert back to your old pricing. I do work for the occasional rich client, and I feel that they are suspect if the price is too low. They respect higher prices because they think they'll get more  
I know that people around here throw out the bottom estimate. Do I want that one to be mine?


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

You might also notice that all my screw holes are pre-piloted. With self countersinking screws, this assembles REALLY fast. You've heard about working smarter instead of working harder-this is smarter. (IMHO of course)


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## shopdog (Nov 9, 2008)

DS,

I have to work differently than you. I have no room to assemble them in my shop. I barely have room for them in my shop. I stored the lowers in my big kitchen (my wife is very understanding when it comes to my business…she even helped me carry them up from the shop)
I should do a shop tour video, so that you can see what I have to deal with. It's a sad situation, but I mostly use it for making crafts. +/-95% of my income is from deck building, so my shop is just a place that I go to to get away from the wife.

I guess if you can do the entire job in a day, $1100 works well for your price. $757 is a good payday
I almost made that per day, for 5 days running. Now I get today off to blog  as I paid my monthly bills, and have some walking around change.
I'm not gloating…If my prices were higher than my market can bear, I'd be unemployed. I have to assume that my clients get other bids, and that mine are on par. If I get too many people accepting my bids, then it's time for a raise.


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

For $3k I could carve flowers on all the faces! (With the CNC of course) :-D

There are too many "hungry" shops in Phoenix after the housing bust here. 
I can't afford to sell this for $3k-in fact, I'd end up starving too.

Also, just to re-emphasize this point, I DON'T have my own CNC… that doesn't keep me from making money with them.


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

pricing and the infamous……..you can charge what ever the market will bare. Having an incredible reputation allows one top charge more then other bids as customers start to realize that there is "worth/value" as their home is chaos for smaller amounts of time, and service work is rare. Experience brings the avoidance of perils and pitfalls that can mean the difference between profit and loss, keeping a customer and loosing a customer.

I think you priced that project bang on the money. Good for you : )

For the past month plus, I have worked beside/next to/with, a cabinet shop that has been in business for 14 years and have had the chance to see how the shop works, from top to bottom and its a nightmare. The pricing is "bangon" and should produce enough profit to grow but its broke as they are robbing Paul to pay Peter. …..meaning they use deposits from new contracts to pay for current projects and the owner is clueless. The company could really be a book on how NOT to run a shop. It's exhausted me and on the good side, encouraged me to move on.

Shopdog. I think you are on the right path as I perused your web site and it's all good.


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## ryansworkshop (Dec 2, 2011)

Shopdog, I am with you on this one. As too am I a small shop guy. Just went and bid a 1000s sq. ft. hardwood floor job. The husband asks me to come down to the finished basement to look at the floor job there. Horrible! What some of these guy put out is amazing. Hardwood floor joints less than 3" of difference on the butt joints. Looks like some fancy cutting board with all the skewed pieces. Anyhow, he shows me this built-in. Similar in size as the one you describe here.

It's all stock casing, AC grade painted wood and 1×4s. Shelves are sagging, with nothing more then a autographed football helmet. They are 32" wide. It's painted white, of course. On both sides the gap goes from 1" to about 2". He asked me how much would I have charged. I told him I would have built it a lot different myself. Not, to put the other guy down or possible home-owner. I said, $2000.00 as a rough could go more. His wife then says, "We paid the guy who did the floor $2000 and I am not to happy. I said, "Nor would I be". All this being said, it looks like a repair and possible two more custom built in window benches.

I then said to her with a smile, "Are you sure you want to get your floor guy to do any more built-ins?" with a smile. I came recommended from a repeat customer to them.

I worked out of the union hall Philadelphia for 22 years. Our rate was good, but yours was about 20-25% higher. I say be fair, get what you can and keep the shop open.


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## shopdog (Nov 9, 2008)

hahaha…when a guy named Moron agrees with me, it's time to rethink my pricing 

Seriously,
I have a great local rep for building decks, and have rave reviews on local blogs. It helps to have name recognition. Although, who would hire Urban Exteriors to build interior cabinets? Hey…people do.

This year, a client told me that mine was the highest deck estimate out of 4…$2000 more than the 2nd highest, but he hired me anyway. It took me years to build my rep, so now I'm just trying to ride the wave.


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

I haven't posted many projects on this site yet. But I hope you can tell from what I have posted that I do top quality work.

My pricing is a result of what I feel is a unique business model that, so far, is working well and has allowed me to stay gainfully employed during a time where construction in my market is near ZERO. Phoenix went from 60,000 building permits a year to 4500. A lot of good people lost thier livelyhoods.

This is the new reality: You have to offer the best value products out there to stay afloat. Find a way to work more efficiently and reduce your contribution costs while maintaining the quality of products.

Anyone on the fringe when times were good has not survived this economy. I typically get MORE busy in the down times. As marginal shops go out of business, thier work gets spread out to other shops that can work more efficiently.


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

I picked my name from being called a "Moron" so I thought I would ride the wave too and hope it carries me to a tropical beach : )

Ipe decks………….doesn't get much better then that


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## renners (Apr 9, 2010)

Holy Crap!!! $3700, I wanna be in America!


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## shopdog (Nov 9, 2008)

DS,

I did look at your projects, and you do real nice work.
I guess you charge what you think you need to, to stay in business. That's sad, because you're giving your work away. Craftsmen should make more than lawyers.

The reason that I started this thread was to get an idea what we make for what we do, so that maybe, just maybe, we can ask, and receive, more. It's been educational, but all that I'm getting is that I'm fortunate to be overpaid…even though I still think that what I did for my client…the total project…was underpriced. That you would be happy to do it for $1100, and make out…well that's a wake up call. I was shocked when she she suggested $2000 ( Maybe she came from Phoenix). You would have been shocked too…about making an extra $900.

This woman was a total stranger…she cold called me. Without asking for a reference, she gave me almost 1/3 of the price up front. She gave me her apartment keys, and left for a vacation. I showed up for the installation, and there was a check on the table with the balance in full!!!
I worked for 2 days, did a great install, cleaned her bedroom as if I wasn't there making a world of sawdust. I covered things with plastic. I even lifted the toilet seat when I peed. Then I packed my tools up, took my photos, pocketed the check, turned out the lights, and locked the door. I emailed her finished pics. 
If she hired the wrong guy for the job, it could have ended up way differently. Even my friend suggested that we have a party there.

Cabinet value $1100
Actual price $3700
Honesty, integrity, and respect…priceless


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

pricing.

i dont do this anymore but for years I ran paper work to follow a project from beginning to end and tracked all expenses calling it job cost control. breaking down a project into a simple process, a simple as possible step by step.

I grouped sales and marketing into one where over time, it was part of "overhead" which included rent/lease payments, utilities, heat, fuel, bookkeeping etc.

Projects were broken down into "*Engineering and design*"……not part os sales but one must still charge for pushing paper around*. Materials *including sheet goods, hardware, misc., items, hard and soft woods. *Machining *including all facets of it. *Assembly* including hardware. *Finishing* which included sanding, prep work, liquids, applications there of.* Delivery and install*………….always refining and reducing the amount of columns, the amount of paper. Lastly, there was a column for* &^%$# ups*……..as those can make or break you so its necessary to track them in order to reduce them.

Every employee was required to fill out a motion time sheet, and a materials list so that estimates could be compared to the facts, they could then be adjusted, tweaked so to speak. Over time all of the info gives a great insight as to there profit is made, and where its lost. After a few years, staff only had to fill in the job number and occasionally a random job was tracked job just to see if the margins are still in line with the estimates.

Also over time a lineal foot price could be developed that included a profit margin, so that when a sales person went to see a client, they could price it right there on the spot, with a low price and a high price, able to negotiate a deal.

The so called "high end shop" in this neck of the woods has been doing the above for more then a decade, staff spend more time filling out time sheets and material lists then they do actually working and no one has a clue as to what the results of such motion time studies yield, that and they so focused on saving a nickel, that they spend a dime doing so…..bad math.

As for CNC. I remain a firm believer in it but it also has its perils as staff get lazy and depend on the CNC for everything. Heres just one example of what I have seen. CNC programer/operator makes a panel to enclose built in ovens……….problem is…..ovens dont fit. One guy examines the problem, gets another guy to confirm, gets the shop foreman to confirm, gets the programmer to confirm, programmer gets a change order from the shop manager and he makes a new program………..router bit super heats the MDF, mdf warps………problem is repeated when the first guy could have grabbed a new sheet of MDF, cut it out on the TS, cut the hole out with a jig saw….done……………jeeeesh, and I shake my head as they cant figure out why they lost money last year.


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

The perils of woodworking for a living

is when people don't understand the concept of making a healthy profit, where a new-b who does great work, shoves a bitterly low price at a customer, which in turn pulls the industry as a whole……down the drain.

the only way around that is to suffer over the years, to bring ones self out of the ditch that most folks seem determined to keep you in : ))

Great thread


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

@Moron: Automated design for CNC makes a majority of what you described go away. I've been down that path and developed tools to overcome these. The only time the cutout is wrong is when the builder changes the model number without informing me. The design of the oven cabinet BEGINS with the cutout information.
Once supplied to the software it ensures parts will fit that cutout, regardless of the overall form factor. When material is changed from PB to PLY or MDF, each tool has a set of pre-defined spindle speeds and feed rates to ensure no over-heating issues.
It is quite an investment to set this up, but it pays dividends with every smooth build and install.

In days past, I've charged premium prices for a wall of built-in shelves. I am still regarded as the 'go to guy' for premium, Harry Potter-esque libraries. The last one I did was 4 years ago-not much call for that right now.

When I look at this project, though, I can't imagine a more simpler construction. There really isn't anything special, or inspiring, to justify a high per foot price. IT ISN'T EVEN PAINTED! (BTW, I NEVER sell it RAW-this would go out primered, or sealed at minimum. Too much can go wrong later.)

If this were something more special, I would definately get to charge more. I just don't see it here. Slam-dunk it and move on to the next more profitable job. Just my 0.02


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## miles125 (Jun 8, 2007)

The truth is that the cabinet is worth somewhere between $900 and $6000. The trick is finding the customer willing to pay the latter. And they don't make a cnc program to help with that.


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## derosa (Aug 21, 2010)

Glue and screws with finish nailing, I'd charge about 1000 over the materials cost. Since the job would be less then a week that means I'd be making out nicely compared to my current income, especially since this would be over and above my regular pay. But that is knowing that 1000 would cover a month's rent and a car payment. I've got friends in Brooklyn who's rent is over 2k a month and to do the same things with the money I'm guess you would need to charge about 2800 plus materials.


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

Like almost all tools, be it a hand tool, a power tool, or a CNC. They are only as good as that to which operates them.

Forgetting how to sharpen a plough generally yields a ********************ty crop.


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## shopdog (Nov 9, 2008)

@DS
hey, don't diss my job. It was fairly simple construction (in your shop, anyway). In my world, it was a heap of work to build. Where this project truly shined is in the install…the total experience. I was underpaid 

I'd like to see the Harry Potter-esque libraries. If you are the go to guy, you should be charging more for your work…period.

@derosa
yeah…Brooklyn rent is expensive…as is everything else.

@miles
you hit the nail on the head. It helps if you can get a quick read on the client, and convince them that you are the guy, you can get your price. You can have a CNC and a shop full of Festools…if you don't make the sale, you don't get to make sawdust.

@moron,
A skilled newbie that underprices his work will soon learn to charge more, or go broke. They don't worry me.
I'm more concerned with unskilled guys underpricing me. There are lots of them in this economy, and they take our jobs. and leave a lot of unhappy clients in their wake. That dis-satisfaction trickles down to us.


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## JGM0658 (Aug 16, 2011)

Steve, aren't you worried this lady will put books on it and the hole thing will come tumbling down? No glue, no dadoes? Just butt ends with screws? Men, I would lay awake at nights thinking this thing would fall apart. Are you really sure that 1 5/8" screws will hold books when you are using 3/4" plywood? I guess this is the NY market, kudos to you and the price you got!


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

Last library I built cost $70k-Did I charge enough? 
Two Stories, 2400 sf-ladder system on both floors-waincotting on all surfaces including the ceiling of the lower floor under the walkway. Solid Cherry construction, Carvings everywhere. Corinthian columns and Capitals everywhere. Upside-down Ship rafter ceiling (by others).
The homeowners were a young 20 something couple who made good in the Dubai construction boom. (Wish I had that kind of money.)

This isn't a pissing contest and I don't mean to take anything from your work, but the local furniture store (mass produced) sells something similar to this for $750 cash and carry. That's what it competes with here in Phoenix. Just sayin'.


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

I concur with you 100%.

I neglected to mention what I would charge for that, as most folks wouldn't like it : ) Installing takes decades to master. One can make a 200K kitchen and if its installed wrong it is horrid, not only in appearance but the consequence to which follows it for years and years. One can install a 10K kitchen and do a great job and the rewards are very fruitful.

So happy to say, that the chapters in a book called "experience" you are still writing might some day be a best seller. For me, the book is almost closed, no more dust. ……no more BS : ))

A new book is about to start where my focus can be spent listening and watching while I push and lean on a broom and occasionally reading my tape measure to avoid "creep". The 10,000 hour theory might finally pay off.

Cheers


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

Sure glad I don't live in Phoenix : ))

I cant answer for Steve but the mass majority oh cabinet shops don't use screws, they don't use glue, and they don't use plywood in the sense of being a veneer core. They bang crap together, like melamine and or vinyl covered mdf, using staples, nails and a quick set hot melt glue gun, slap a door on the front, throw a quick assemble KD drawer in………..and ya……the cabinets stay on the wall, be it a kitchen, a bath, or a built in and most often the customer is tickled pink with the master piece they just bought. Some of those cabinets are in use a decade or 2 later

So in answer. I wouldnt loose a winks sleep knowing that I used screws, no dados, to assemble a ply core cabinet where it is joined in such a way, that when screwed to a wall, will be there long after you and I are both dead.

Cheers


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

I love it in Phoenix…. 
I have a really nice 2476sf home on an oversized lot with a pool and spa (recently bought a short-sale for a song) and I make a good living.
I love my work and the weather is great 9 to 10 months out of the year. (I actually like the heat better than the cold, so it works for me.)
My mortgage is less than 1/6th of the rent on a 1br apartment back east, so it is hard to compare apples to apples.

BTW, I almost never get straight casework jobs. (no doors, no drawers, no other special features/trim)


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## JGM0658 (Aug 16, 2011)

I don't know where you got this Moron, not for $3700. I have seen plenty of the stuff you mention that does not last a couple of years let alone "decades". Like I said, must be the NY market.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

I'd bid it at $300-400 per lineal foot, installed. I glanced and thought "32".
NYC, maybe should be higher.

We all understand, right, that before a price is thrown out, there's a 
conversation about quality of materials and stuff like that, right?


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

this was way more fun as a hobby.

I've had the good fortune to work for many shops, many people, in many different positions over the years and all of it has brought to me, 10's of thousands of hours making dust. Dust in making commercial, institutional and industrial wood products, from entry level kitchens to kitchens that run 1,500 a foot and the sky is the limit. From hand carvings to CNC 5 axis machines. I have certainly seen enough to know……..that I dont know jack squat compared to what I have yet to learn. The longer one has been in this trade, the more they should realize how little they know……….myself included

makn a buck at this craft………is hard, teaching those who have never made a dime, ……..is exhausting.

Pmfffffff. I'm going to rip 5 sheets into parts, screw them together, use a Kreg jig to fasten a face frame to it, no doors, no drawers, two simple cabinets, install them on either side of a fireplace, no paint, no finish, ……6K, 4 days work max so I dont give a shoot where you live, what mentality you deal with, thats your problem, not mine so Ya, I think Shopdog did well and in perusing his web site I personally think he deserves it.

The title reads "Curious about pricing" and I have come to believe that you can charge what ever you want so long as the customer cannot walk a block and buy the exact same thing for less. Thats it, thats all. Some folks will never be happy until every one looses money. You can get a haircut for 8 bucks, 16 bucks right up to several hundred bucks……………..in the end, its a hair cut right ?

Merry Christmas to all.


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## Sawkerf (Dec 31, 2009)

I just went thru some old billing and found a similar project that cost the customer $2,700. This was in San Jose, CA and the access was straight from the driveway into the family room.

Another customer paid $3,700 for some bathroom cabinets that went to the third floor of a San Francisco Victorian home. Humping cabinets up more than three flights of narrow stairs is a colossal PITA. I made good money on that job, and the customer was very happy, but I haven't even bid on a San Francisco job since that one. Too much hassle for me. - lol


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## shopdog (Nov 9, 2008)

@JGM
Those shelves aren't coming down. It was good quality Birch ply, not MDF. All screws countersunk. Backs were glued on. Max span was 28.5". I have built my own bookcases that way, and they are still strong years later. I can sleep nights.

@DS
You can't compare free standing bookcases to a built-in. We have an Ikea here in Brooklyn, and I can't compete with them, price wise, but they sell ********************, and you have to put them together. In most of my bookcase jobs, I'm actually replacing Ikea crap. The old buildings here usually have such wonky floors that if you sit an Ikea bookcase on them, they will rack, and tilt away from the wall.

That sounds like quite the library you built. You probably took at least 2.5 days to build that 

I wish you lived closer…then I'd pay you $1100 to do the job, and pocket the other $2600. I'd give you so much work, we'd both get rich…well, at least I would  I'd keep you busy though.

You're right about rents here…I pay $1700 per month for a 1 BR…but I have a backyard, and the basement is my shop. I'm actually getting a great deal. The new people on the top floor are paying $2100, and they have to walk up. They think that they have a good deal too. Expensive is relative.

@moron,
For a moron, you make a lot of sense.

@Wudnhevn
At least I'm not the only one that doesn't believe it's a one day job that took me 5 days.

@sawkerf,
working in a city, like NY, or SF has it's own set of logistical problems that drive up the pric, and take time. 
On this job, my friend and I had to park at a fire hydrant, while my wife made sure we didn't get parking tickets ($135). We humped boxes and tools down the freight entrance, down and around long hallways to the building's only (small) elevator. It was early morning, so we had to wait, and share the elevator with tenants going to work. We finally got everything up to the 3rd floor apartment, but then we went back out, and I had to search for parking. You can't compare that to parking in a driveway, and bringing boxes right in.

Building decks are very problematic here too. Most of my jobs are in the back of brownstones (row houses).
Sometimes, I'm working with 16' 1×6 Ipe, and it can't come in the front door, because of a sharp turn. Now, many of these brownstones have bars on the windows…garden and parlour floor…so we have to pass these 16'ers thru the window bars, thru the house, and out the back windows. 
In my next life, I'm gonna build decks in the suburbs…driveways, walk around to the back, garages to store tools in, and maybe set up a shop. That sounds like heaven to me.

I'm not complaining. I get to make sawdust for a living, and I've made a good living at it. I love what I do, and I'm my own boss…but easy's getting harder everyday…and hard is…very hard for this old guy. That's why I charge the big bucks.
Anyone willing to work that hard, and turn out a good product, is wasting an opportunity if you give it away too cheaply.


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## ryansworkshop (Dec 2, 2011)

@dog

Well Said!


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## JGM0658 (Aug 16, 2011)

Ok somewhere along the line this became take a pot shot at Steve….  In the end, this was a successful job if the customer is happy both with the built in and the price. In a sense I think there is a little bit of envy as well, I know I wish I could charge that much for something like that.

As for him not even painting it, remember this is a NYC apartment, with tenant associations that are a PITA. So maybe the customer asked Steve not to varnish it so the fumes would not bother the neighbors. Who knows?

So maybe yeah, many of us would probably have tried and done a little better job, but lets remember as well that many of us have much bigger shops, mine is 2250 sqf, I could have build the entire thing, with mortise and tenon joints, put it in my van and deliver it built and varnished, like Steve said, NYC is a PITA for this, he had to work in the apartment or probably the built in would not have fit through the door.

Under those circumstances maybe the price is right, I still would have use 2" screws Steve…


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## shopdog (Nov 9, 2008)

JGM,
I didn't feel like I was ganged up on. I can take critique…and maybe learn from it. I know that they were basic boxes. As simple as they can be. I admitted it…but they are well built and strong. 
I have the skills to build anything that you can. I either don't want to put in the time for high end work(without a high end payoff), or I'm limited by my situation…tiny basement shop with low ceilings.
I've been a woodworker for 35 years. I was a trim carpenter (mechanic) on high-end Manhattan renovations for years, and a cabinet maker in a few great shops for a bunch more years. I've built lots of beautiful decks, pergolas, planter boxes, and other outdoor stuff for the last 15 years. I've even built 3 houses in Costa Rica…solo, without electricity(back in the 1970's-80's). Just a handful of handtools, and all that beautiful tropical hardwood. So I have my props. Now, I build what I want, the way I want to, and my clients like the results…every time. Sorry if I'm getting defensive, but maybe I did feel a few pot shots coming my way

Did my client like it? She is still on vacation, so I don't know. She did like what she saw in the pics that I emailed her. I know that she'll love it. It's exactly the same as the sketchup that I gave her, and unless I built it on the wrong wall, she'll be a return customer (she has lots of books)...and she'll be blogging about what a great job I did, how her bedroom is cleaner than she left it, and how I can be trusted alone with her belongings.

Thanks for trying to justify why I didn't paint it. It is paint grade…not varnish. I didn't paint it because I hate to paint. That's it…I just don't paint. I only do what I like, and am good at. She can do it, or hire a painter.
She totally understood…she wouldn't hire a painter to build a bookcase.

2" nails?...I only screw


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## kizerpea (Dec 2, 2011)

Shopdog….nothing wrong with your work! i see somethings i would have done diffrent but hey, we are all a little diffrent, thats what makes us who we are. my last big job took me 10 half days to complete 20 ft of upper an lower cabinets boxes ,an made the face frame from popular, drawers, an slides installed.i built everything, order the doors an drawer fronts to save time. 
installed every thing with no help! but hey i still made money. customer was happy an i was to so the price was fair. thats how u no how much to charge. its not how hard u can stick it to someone.


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

WudnHvn says So if I placed my order at 8:00 AM you would have it installed by 4:00 PM that day? Are we talking by yourself as well?

Well, actually, YES. You saw my drawing, my CNC output. That was the hardest part of this job and it was already done to prove I could do it. The only thing left to do is place the sheets on the machine and press start. Fact is, I could be assembling this unit within the next hour if I so chose. It actually took longer to screen capture the images then convert them to jpg format than it did to draw them. (Which is why i left the far right unit with the incorrect shelving placement.)

Shopdog says You can't compare free standing bookcases to a built-in. 
The clients do… They compare all options. I wasn't referring to Ikea when I made my statement, but that is the gyst of it. The unfinished furniture store sells stuff like this too, but with real plywood and not melamine covered cardboard.

The casework portion is the *least* expensive part of my operation. No special consideration is given to it. The more valued portion of a build are the doors, drawers, moldings, finishes and hardware on a unit-of which, this unit has *none *of those things. I know of a company here in the valley, (two actually) that are content to spit out casework "boxes" for a 10% margin. They do thousands a day and market them nationwide.
Even this unit isn't much more complicated than assembling a donut box. Sorry if that offends you.


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## shopdog (Nov 9, 2008)

wudnhevn,
Brooklyn is bad, but Manhattan? fugedaboutit.
3 years ago, I took on a project on a Manhattan terrace, 32 flights up in a building across the street from the NY stock exchange. To get to the building, I had to go thru a high security checkpoint. The "cops" lowered a barrier, and I drove in to a section of street that had a barrier up on the other end.then a handler brought a black lab to sniff around, while another guy looked under my car with a mirror stick device. Then I had to get everything up 32 floors, having to change elevators on the 3rd floor. Rich clients, and beautiful views…big payoff.
A year later they wanted more woodwork…I turned them down. 9/11 changed lots of things around here. I stay in Brooklyn now.


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## JGM0658 (Aug 16, 2011)

I either don't want to put in the time for high end work(without a high end payoff),

Well Steve, maybe you have not noticed it yet, but you are getting a high end payoff already…. 

OK, here in Mexico things work a little differently. OF course few cities in the world have the income that people who live in Manhattan do, but I just put in a bid for a bar that had to be matched in color 4×12 feet and an island for a house, I came in at $2200 and the customer whined like a stuck pig….... you are lucky my friend to get those prices…


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## shopdog (Nov 9, 2008)

DS251 said "*Even this unit isn't much more complicated than assembling a donut box. Sorry if that offends you*."

It seems to offend you more than it offends me. I think that you're offended that I can make $3400 in 5 days by building a simple box that you could build and install in a day, and only make $700.
I don't even like to take on 1 day jobs. I'd need to get 300 of them a year, instead of the 25-30 projects that I build each year.
Anyway, get over it. I build crap, and get overpaid, and you are superskilled, and turn out masterful work that you charge a mediocre price for.

Some of my deck jobs are simple, and I finish them in 3-4 days. My wife tells me…don't build them so fast…they will think they are overpaying. She actually feels guilty when I make a lot of $. Not me. They get quality, quickly, and they are glad to pay for it. It took me years to get where I am, and people have to pay for my years of experience.

I think I'll go down to the shop and build some crummy radiator covers. I don't even want to tell you what I charge for those  You'd be moving to Brooklyn, and I don't want to compete with your skills and prices:


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

There's a gentleman on the Forbes 400 list who has a home here in North Scottsdale. I think he manages to spend about three weeks a year there (It's on a golf course). 
He's remodeled it three times in the last five years-each time spending around $500k. The last time out he spent $190k in millwork with us without adding a single "box" of casework, or even adding a single square foot to the house.

It's not ALL bad in Phoenix.


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## shopdog (Nov 9, 2008)

A NY deckbuilder pulls up to a doctor's house in a brand new Maserati. He's there to fix a dangerous section of railing on the doctor's deck. Doctor let's him in (eyeballing the Maserati), and shows him to the deck. The deck guy finishes the fix in about an hour, and gives the doctor the bill, which he pays.
As the doctor is showing him out the front door, he says "that's a beautiful car, and very expensive. I can't even afford one" to which the deck guy replies "neither could I, when I was a doctor".

That's the way it would be in a perfect world.

*Don't charge too little for your beautiful work.*


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

Shopdog says: I think that you're offended that I can make $3400 in 5 days by building a simple box that you could build and install in a day, and only make $700.

By my math I can make 5 of these in the same five days and make 5 X $757 in five days… = $3785 no one is offended here. Simply put, I am set up to make cases without much effort. I could, in fact, make 50 of these in 5 days if they're run at the same time.

I can tell you what I am NOT set up for-radius raised panel doors. I've made them, they take forever in my shop (3 days per door). So, now I order them from a shop that SPECIALIZES in radius doors. They even use MY cutters and they make them for a third of what I can make them for. Why? How? Because they are set up for it and it is no big deal for them to do it.


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## shopdog (Nov 9, 2008)

OK DS251,

You can stop pissing now…I stopped a few minutes ago.

It's settled…neither of us are offended. We both enjoy what we do, and are well compensated for it.
Let's go shopping together and get a couple of matching Maseratis


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

No thanks, can't drive two at a time-hahaha!


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

WudnHvn: Realistically, I would never promise same day delivery. It just happens that I stock Birch ply and *could* begin assembling in an hour. It usually takes a couple days for materials to arrive, assuming my local hardwood distributer has it in stock. If it is a special order item that isn't stocked locally it could take a couple of weeks just to get materials. That doesn't mean I am sitting around all that time, there's usually four or five projects running at once at various stages.

It's nice to know that I CAN get something done in a hurry if I need to without disrupting the entire operation. Case in point-I just got an email to make a couple of sink cabinets (with solid surface tops) that need to be installed this weekend in Albuquerque. (Must be in and out by the end of the 11th.) It's now 10:30am MST, these will be assembled by the end of the day today and on a truck tommorrow. A local installer in New Mexico is going to install them for us on Saturday. The client is going to pay an appropriate price for these-the least part of which will be the actual cost to build them.

Regarding Margin: Gross Margin is Gross Margin-before overhead. In Shopdog's example cabinets above, I beleive it was actually closer to 68%, but I average around 60% GM. Most shops average 12% to 30% GM when they are run like the shop mentioned earlier in this thread. I feel sorry for THOSE guys.


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## ryansworkshop (Dec 2, 2011)

I have acquired great knowledge in this thread. Some knowledge was just firmed up a bit.

1) The price difference around the country.
2) Looking at the skill to rate thing.
3) How to build at the speed of light.
4) The "Old bull, young bull" story is alive and well. This is why it has stood the test of time.
5) Automation trumps craftsmanship.

Now, Steve, could you tell us a story about the one you did that the turn out went in the other direction?

Good day all.


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

I think I broke down my job expenses clearly enough to show it was a gross margin, even if I didn't call it by that name.

Profits for any month wouldn't be known until the end of the month to see if enough jobs were performed to cover expenses and create one. That is highly dependent on fixed monthly expenses, which, I can only say are very low for me with the way I am set up.

And while I don't typically run the CNC machine anymore, I could easily do it and do the delivery and install as I said. This is something that I often still do depending on my workload. If I have a lot of work in a particular month I tend to use more other resources. No sense tying up my time when there is more money to be made. (The shop where I lease the CNC machine will let me operate it, or have thier guy do it for an additional hourly fee.) If business is slower, I tend to do more of the work myself.

A plywood bookcase in three tall sections would be four trips minimum into the building with a dolly and at least one trip out (tools). No other help required, but sometimes it's nice to have. Sometimes my 22yr old son, if he doesn't have classes, tags along and helps out and I pay him a modest amount. (I figure he'd ask me for the money anyway, so, I might as well get something for it.)

Haven't worked in a High Rise since 1989… but the service elevators are huge… it's not usually a problem to load everything in for a single trip up. Can't say I've ever had to bribe anyone for that privledge.


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## shopdog (Nov 9, 2008)

What have I learned from this thread…

1) Don't blog about how you build basic casework, unless you lie and say you dadoed in the shelves.
2) Don't leave NYC anytime soon…at least until I retire.
3) Charge high prices, and get a LJ from Phoenix (with a CNC machine) to build/install while I surf the internet, and count my $
4) when I attempt to tell the Maserati joke, don't leave out that the bill was *$500* for 1 hour work.

@Ryan
What does this mean?
*Now, Steve, could you tell us a story about the one you did that the turn out went in the other direction?*


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## ryansworkshop (Dec 2, 2011)

Good morning Steve. What was meant was tell us a story about the job where you lost as much as you gained here. We all have them in business. It part of learning…I am just a few clicks south of you. Have worked in your area a few times through the union hall years ago.

Loved the joke. It fits my business profile to a tee. I own a handyman business besides the shop business. I have all kinds of rates, the pretty lady rate, the PITA rate, the more business rate, etc. Hey, its our business, right.


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## shopdog (Nov 9, 2008)

Ryan,

I can't remember ever losing on a job. I often say to my wife that I undercharged on a project, right after signing a contract. I'm usually wrong. I pay my assistant $25 an hour to build decks with me. There have been jobs that I didn't make much more than him…that's about as bad as it gets…KNOCK WOOD

I did handyman work many years ago. I was a NYC taxi driver at the time, with woodworking skills (I had built a couple of beach shacks in Costa Rica). I couldn't stand driving taxi anymore, so I put up signs around my Manhattan neighborhood for handyman work. In retrospect, I had no real skills, and made lots of mistakes, but at $15 an hour, people put up with me. I'd take on any jobs, and study my books the night before…heh heh heh. 
I ended up to be pretty good at all kind of things, and I worked for small time contractors, of which a few became life long friends. They taught me soooooo much. I still take on an occasional T & M job for a neighbor or an old client…$60 an hour now…and I think some local handymen around here charge around $100 an hour. If I could get that, I would close down my deck biz.
I never charged different people different rates, but 
When I worked for pretty women, I always worked slower…so I made more.
When I had a PITA client, I worked quickly…and told them to lose my phone #

A few clicks south?
That would put you in Bed-Stuy 
I see you're in Delaware…We got a whole state between us.


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## ryansworkshop (Dec 2, 2011)

Yes, the state of tax you to death.

Lived in NJ for 35 years.

Worked out of the Philadelphia Carpenters Hall for 22 years. Worked out of local 1462 New Jersey/New York Dockbuilders/Piledrivers for 7 years. Like I said, spent some time in your area.


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

I'm just guessing, but, shipping for a unit that size to NYC would probably be around $700 on a common carrier. Your plan to have them made in Phoenix might just work after all.

I once worked for an outfit, years ago, that could build an entire 2br 1ba apartment of cabinets-that's a small 12 box kitchen, a 3 box bath, a hall linen, plus laminate countertops which included a bar top above the sink run-they'd ship it from Phoenix to Houston, install it and charge $600.00 for the entire job start to finish.

Of course, it was a 300 unit complex and a nearly $200k contract, but you get the idea.

EDIT: (They had NO CNC either)


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## renners (Apr 9, 2010)

This has been great thread to read, thanks for starting it. I initially looked at that project and guesstimated about €1250 - that's about 1600 USD. At that I probably would have come in for a lot of hardship for not much of a return, kind of like most of the jobs I do. My prices are going up in the New Year. They have to.


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

We completed a similar project a couple of months ago that was 7' tall x 8' wide with 8 raised panel doors, adjustable shelves, finished in alkyd inside and out, all birch except the crown top and the two piece matching base molding. Under $700 in materials, one day build (2 guys), two half days priming and painting (so 1 day of one painter), then 1/2 day install (2 guys, so 1 man day). It was $2380 turn key. We made out on the labor and then some leftover profit at the end. Customer is happy and a master bathroom remodel is in the plans.

I'd never get away with that base not coped into the existing OR that top not coped into the existing crown… or its own crown if lower than the ceiling. And unfinished ? Honestly, I would not want to walk away from that job unfinished for fear of some other finisher making my work look like shop shelving.

Could I have gotten more ? Probably. I'll never know and won't worry about it. That was dozens of jobs ago. No time to cry over a few woulda coulda shoulda bucks now.


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## shopdog (Nov 9, 2008)

David said…
*I'd never get away with that base not coped into the existing OR that top not coped into the existing crown… or its own crown if lower than the ceiling. And unfinished ? Honestly, I would not want to walk away from that job unfinished for fear of some other finisher making my work look like shop shelving.*

I built what she wanted…I'm not getting away with anything, except a decent paycheck. 
If she wanted it to go to the ceiling, I would have crowned it…
As for finishing…if I painted it, it would have looked like shop shelving.
Thanks for your feedback.

After 35 years of woodworking, at least I've learned how to make money.


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