# Artists - the lot of you!



## MarkTheFiddler (May 29, 2012)

Something has been bugging me lately. It's about some of you artists and how you value your work. I know that much of your work is priceless and yet when you put a price tag on it, it gives a gross of $5 to $20 an hour before materials, traveling, maintenance on tools, workspace, utilities and the cost of getting new work.

I understand the artist chemistry a bit and the truth is we like to be appreciated for what we do (me with my fiddling.) We will work hard for someone to say - 'That's incredible!'. It is that type of thing that keeps us from making any cash. We will sell at a low price so we can get someone's affirmation of our art. We also sell at a low price just so we can get work.

Do you know what kind of word of mouth gets out when you sell for a low price? 'Joe/Sue does beautiful work at ridiculously low prices.'

What if you bit the bullet and tripled your most ambitious price? What if you looked at that special sculpture, furnishing, cutting board or other household item and said "I put myself into you and you are worth a fortune!". What if you kept the beautiful things you make for your home and tried to sell them off, no matter how long it takes, for a good price that reflects the time it took you, the skills you put into it and your heart?

I don't know really what would happen. It's just my mind working. You all are outstanding and you are worth a fortune!


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## Jim Jakosh (Nov 24, 2009)

Mark, It all depends on where you try to sell your work. If you go to an art and craft sale, there are lower expectations than if you go to a gallery. I know what you mean about the time and materials you put in it. Unless you sell at a gallery are real ART fair, you cannot get a great return. Craft shows typically sell items for $10-$30 all day. When you get up to $50 it will not sell unless you just find the perfect buyer who appreciates what you put into it. 
Have you tried ETSY- an o-line hand made sales venue? there is a lot of competition out there but you might do better than a craft sale on that site….................Jim


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## Gene01 (Jan 5, 2009)

Time was when artisans recieved a fair compensation for their work. However, that was back when they were the only game in town. 
Today, competing with mass produced products made from inexpensive man made materials, the true woodworker is at a distinct disadvantage. 
As Jim suggests, art (whatever your definition) finds a better reception in a venue where customers are seeking "art", not bargains. 
OTOH, I believe it was JC Penny who opined that "If you wish to live with the rich, sell to the masses." The opposite is also true, as well.
We all know the big names in the woodworking field. Great woodworkers all, and many are great marketeers, too. But, I'd venture that a miniscule number of them make a decent living from their woodwork alone. 
Yet, most of us know of guys and gals who work tirelessly producing oodles of items, all essentially the same, who at least pay the bills and buy a new tool now and then.


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## grfrazee (Jul 17, 2012)

I find that it depends where you sell, and location also partially determines your clientele.

Take a flea market for example. You (generally) don't find many wealthy people at flea markets since normally what's for sale is random stuff that could be considered "junk." Don't get me wrong, I *love* flea markets, but I'm not expecting to find anything that I might call "art."

Art/craft fairs, to me at least, are a good balance of price and quality. I'm not at a point in my life where I can go to an art fair and pay for what I know is a good quality piece, but I can recognize that they are priced fairly (for the most part). I live around some fairly wealthy suburbs, and the people I see at the art fairs can afford the wares, and I think that most sellers go home happy. Also, like Jim says, if you have items in that butter zone of $10-$30, you probably won't be able to keep them stocked (cutting boards come to mind).

Galleries, well, there's your fabulously wealthy clientele. They're not worried about price as long as the item fits their decor or taste. However, I feel like its such a small chance that I'd rather not bother. But that's just me. I can't say I've made anything anywhere near gallery-worthy, so I have no experience with the matter.

Also, I second selling on Etsy. I've sold a few things (mostly kitschy stuff like picture frames and decorative wine corks), so it's along the same vein as an art fair to me.


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## IndianJoe (Mar 29, 2012)

You buy a piece of bass wood to make a duck at $10.00 and I do the same we carve the same ducks and have the same time in it ,you sell your for $ 250.00 I sell Mine at $ 150.00
I will back to but nine more pieces of bass wood and sell all ten.
I have friends that sell high and make 1/4 or lass then I do a year.
One more thing you have to look at is were you live at is the $ there or were you are doing the show sometimes you have to take a look at that to say what you can ask for that dock like Jim sad.
Back to the duck in one year you made $250 - $10.00 for the wood year end $240.00
I made $1500.00 - $100.00 For the wood year end $1400.00
Yes it's nice to sell high and I'm not trying to cut you down or me just trying to tell you like it is.

P.S
I don't sell ducks , it was the first thing that came to me


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## Gene01 (Jan 5, 2009)

Joe, you hit the nail on the head.


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## shipwright (Sep 27, 2010)

Craft you can make to sell for profit.
Art, you'd better be doing for the challenge, personal achievement or just love because profit may be far far away.


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## GrandpaLen (Mar 6, 2012)

*Woodworking vs. Motive*

*Pure Hobbiest *- invests for 'self-gratification'
...Costs are a non-consideration.

*Production Hobbiest* - Invests for 'self-sustenance'
...Costs are a consideration.

*Frustrated Hobbiest* - Invests for 'monetary gain'
...Costs are all-consuming.

*Hobby; *
hob·by [hóbbee] n 
enjoyable activity: an activity engaged in for pleasure and relaxation during spare time

*Occupation;*
oc·cu·pa·tion [òkyə páysh'n] n 
1. job: the job by which somebody earns a living 
2. activity: an activity on which time is spent

Work Safely and have Fun. (...at all Costs). - Grandpa Len


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## Gene01 (Jan 5, 2009)

Hey Paul,
Have you tried the Victoria scene, yet?


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## lumberjoe (Mar 30, 2012)

I don't like to sell things. I have sold some turnings and cutting boards, but to be honest they were not representitive of my best work. As such they were more "mistakes" or "overstock". I let them go really cheap because the alternative would have been the scrap bin or the back of the shop on the obscure shelf that never sees the light of day.

I have had friends ask to purchase things I have put a lot of time and effort into and I was really proud of. Those did not go cheap, some did not go at all. I generally ask somewhere in the range of "you would never pay that". Suprisingly, a few of them did without blinking. I also don't mind doing things for very little to no profit for someone I know will truly appreciate them. How many end tables does one need? I really enjoy making things like that, so when someone really wants one and pays for materials, it's like a free trip to the amuement park for me.

GrandpaLen also hit the nail on the head to sum up my involvement it woodworking. I really enjoy what I do. I don't want to be compensated for it other than others admiring and appreciating my work even half as much as I do.


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## alba (Jul 31, 2010)

*Joe* you wanna buy a duck? lol

*Mark* I've found that using an agent is best

Sure they take a hefty commission but Hell

they get the prices as well.

Paul (Shipwright) did a piece that to me was pure

Art. I would have priced it high due to the fine

craftsmanship. Whereas an agent would look at the

piece on all levels and also know the market.

In the time that I've been making items from wood

I've been called all sorts and even an "Artist". As long

as it sells you can call me what you want. Main thing is

that I don't get it into my head that I'm something I'm

not. Ego is an expensive monster to feed.

jamie


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## Puzzleman (May 4, 2010)

I agree with parts of what has been said. Customers are taught by the artists and vendors at the craft shows. They are taught what is the price for their work. They will then use that cost basis to value work of other artists / vendors. If you do a craft / art show where the prices and customer expectations are higher, you will get higher prices. In the art & craft shows that I do, my average ticket is $55 - 60. Too get the higher ticket, I educate the customer as to what is involved in making it and the types of wood.

Where I have a problem is where someone comes in that doesn't not even start to value their time. I have been to shows where there are people selling the products to just recover their costs. As I stated before, they will teach the customer where the price point is. This is what happens at many of the lower level of shows.

I have some friends that tell me how busy they are and how they just can't keep up. When I suggest raising their prices, so they make more per item, they protest saying that won't be able to sell anything if the prices go higher. They have bought into the Walmart mentality of only selling cheap. I prefer to sell less items but make more per item and my sales have actually increased. So I am making more money while doing less work.


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## mojapitt (Dec 31, 2011)

In actuality, everyone here is correct. We all would like to make as much money as possible. For me however, I know I live in South Dakota. We have about the lowest per capita income in the nation. I simply can't get as much money as I could in a larger metropolitan area. I try to pick as good of venues as possible. But I am simply limited geographically. As I hopefully grow, I hope to go to some larger shows. But along with that goes higher expenses & stiffer competition. I am finding however, the better my skill gets, the more I am able to charge for products. Not a lot more, but growing.

I do believe it's my goal to have everyone that comes to my booth leave money when they go. Have a variety of things to sell. Limited products equals limited sales to me.


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## Charlie5791 (Feb 21, 2012)

When I was younger I sold paintings and sculptures of all different kinds. Many paintings went in the $700 to $800 range. A few in the thousands. Best sculpture sale was $6000.

Then I stopped. I found other things to do. For every piece I've sold I've probably given away 10 to people who simply admired them.

Now I'm 60 and after I get this damned kitchen done I hope to be painting and sculpting again.  Not for the money. Although I expect that money will come from it. I don't NEED it therefore I'll get some heheheh…. (no, not wealthy…. and not braggin' by any stretch…. just don't need more than I have at the moment)


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## JarodMorris (Nov 24, 2011)

Indianjoe,

I like your hypothetical of ducks. You said that you have friends that sell a quarter of the work that you do and you make more (and I realize that you said you don't actually make ducks). That's a bottom dollar comparison. Can you compare hourly wage to hourly wage though? In your scenario with the ducks, if someone sells one for $250 and you sell one for $150 and assuming it takes you both the same amount of time (as you said), then if the guy selling for $250 is one of your friends meaning that for every 40 you sell, your friend is selling 10. Lets also say, for easy math, that it takes each of you 2 hours to make the duck. You have 80 hours in it, and your friend has 20 hours in it. His gross sales are $2,500 while your gross sales are $6,000. His hourly wage is $125 per hour while yours is $75 per hour. Lets say you worked 2 full weeks to put in your 80 hours, and he spread his out over that same 2-week period, then you're making $75 per hour for a solid 80 hours in that 2 weeks. He's realizing $31.25 per hour over that same 2 week period because he's essentially trading that 80 hours for $2,500, but it only requires 20 hours of work to generate that $2,500. He then has 60 hours to do with whatever else he wants to do. That could be produce more ducks or spend it with his family if the $2500 every 2 weeks is enough for him to pay his bills and operate his business.

One is not necessarily better than the other. It's a personal decision for each to make. I own my own non-woodworking business and I have gladly traded money for time with my family. I pay the bills and have a comfortable life. On mornings like today, I cook pancakes for the kids, clean the kitchen for the wife and make it in to the office by the crack of 10:30. It's not better, it's not worse. It's just different. There are people in my line of work that I've met who told me they'd gladly take half their salary if they could work 75% of the hours. Concept applies in any line of work, woodworking too.

Jarod


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## MarkTheFiddler (May 29, 2012)

Gentlemen,

Thank you so much for the responses. I've read your responses and now I am about to contend with some people who's skills, talents and creativness are things I dearly respect. On top of that, I've gotten to know some of you a little and I hold you in very high regard.

You may of course dismiss my comments as Utopian but I'm going to try and keep from backpedaling.

Let's talk perfection for a second. You see your flaws quite clearly. They stand out like beacons that you lay eyes upon every single time you pass by. You may believe that your flaws have substantial impact on the value of your work. Impact - yes. Substantial degradation in value - not hardly.

All of you know you will never achieve perfection yet I believe it's in each of your natures to attempt to improve upon your work every time. I think I'm preaching to the choir on this so here goes my metaphor. When I am performing on stage and I make a mistake, I don't offer a discount. I know I am going to make mistakes. I also know that most people are not going to hear my mistakes - EVEN other musicians. If I act nervous or conscientious, the audience looks for the flaws.

I don't ask people what's it worth to them when I play on stage, I tell them what it's worth and they can take it or 'leave it' but it's a mistake to treat my skills as a commodity. The facts are that most people leave it because it's out of their budget. They want inexpensive but nobody wants cheap. Heck - you guys are a prime example - look at your tools. You want the best. When you can find it in your budget, you buy the best you can. When you buy the best - you may feel the sting of the price you paid but you also come away with pride of ownership. This new item "The Forrester saw blade", is something you treasure.

The makers of Forrester blades do not take it personally when you don't buy their product because of price. It's not for you or your budget. They are still in business. You are are still buying their blades.

Why are your creations any different?

Now I'm going to get down to the root of a particular matter. You professionals have to eat. When the rent is due, you have to pay it. When the economy is in a downturn, you do what you can to survive. I get it. Trust me that I get it. I know the pain and the nightmares. I "owned" an upholstery shop for years. It feels like an inescapable trap. You prostitute yourselves with ungratifying work. You can't risk your livlihood by suddenly changing gears and attempting to cater to those with deep pockets. All I can say is, create another brand for yourself. Create the brand that can say "No" if your price is not met. You may get more business by representing both facets. Keep on keeping on with your living but it's something to think about.

I have got to tell you that I get it. I understand the nature of this beast from your perspective. I also understand it from the perspective of one who occasionally shells out the big bucks for works of art JUST LIKE YOU make. I also understand it from the perspective of one who makes a really good chunk of change for a living and so I see a different price tag to my time than I used to.

I also have a completely different perspective on what ego might be and my own view on at least why I would ever say, "I will never sell". In my past, I said I don't need the ego trip associated with being declared an artist when my personal truth was sour grapes. It was ALL about protecting my ego. Rejection of my art was something my EGO couldn't take. I will "never sell" my wares was again because a rejection would damage my ego.

The weirdest thing of all is to consider that your own humility gives you the freedom to be rejected and not worry about because it does not dent your ego. It does not dent the outward picture or reputation you try to exude because you don't ever try to make people believe that you are anything. You let them form their own opinions and if they think you are the lowest of the low - you don't invest in trying to make them think better of you. You just continually invest in making yourself better without any regard to their opinion. Eventually you will sparkle like a gem, not for what you want people to believe about you, but for who you are.

Asking a fair price - Yes - 5000 per duck  may cause others who are not confident enough in their art to say your prices are presumptuous. Tell them to try selling at the higher price and that they are worth it. If you can't help them to see the light - remember it's about them and not you. It does not mean you should discount yourself or your prices.

Utopian? Yeah sort of. Philosophical drivel? Yeah sort of. Yet my view of things does not end there. I have some extreme rants and raves about the decline of artisans in todays culture. I'll tell right now that I agree with you all on a great many things but my heart aches for a bit of global enlightenment.

I see that I have really gotten into typing this and some of the perspectives in this thread now differ. I'll just say - this is my 2 cents worth. Thanks for reading my mind dump. I hope your mind wasn't damaged in the process.


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## Wildwood (Jul 22, 2012)

Art is very subjective usually based upon personal or life experiences. As crafts people trying to achieve aesthetic interest must appeal to a sense of logic, order, novelty and elegance in our work. Most of what we produce falls into industrial design where simplicity and usability very important. At the same time novel ornate items have appeal too.

Before can call your stuff art want to increase your vocabulary so those in world of art understand what you make. That is right vocabulary not math will help sell yourself and products. Just know a few words that apply to your work that adhere to elements and principles of design. If on the ball, start talking about your symmetrical or asymmetrical design piece.

Do not forget without great craftsmanship not much of a market anywhere for what you produce. Before bumping your gums make sure know what talking about and who you are talking too! People not stupid and soon realize if talking to genuine artisan or simply BS artist.


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## rance (Sep 30, 2009)

Great input I-Joe, Jarod and Mark(the fiddler). And Mark, you wanna share more? I'll be listening with interest.


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## lanwater (May 14, 2010)

Mark,

Woodworking is a hobby for me. It takes me away from daily work.
I never sell anything I make (woodworking); I believe the minute I sell, woodworking will cease to be a hobby and begin to be another job…

Most of the time I work with my garage door open. 
Two weekends ago, a man and his wife stopped and admired my last class project, 2 side tables with inlay (not posted). He asked if I would sell to him. I said the price is $0 per end table…
About half an hour later he was hauling two end tables at $0 each and no return or warranty.

What did I get? quite a lot! Someone liked my work. What a feeling!!!

My reward was much greater than time+material + profit.

In my case it's an easy decision. my mortgage and house bill are payable anyway and that's why I have a job.
My hobby has to stay as hobby, something I enjoy.


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## JarodMorris (Nov 24, 2011)

lanwater, how long did it take you to convince them to actually take the tables? Is that why "about half an hour later" ?


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## lanwater (May 14, 2010)

JarodMorris: I had to convince them that the end table really looked nice and were worth much more than the asking price  
They were not comfortable with $0. We chatted about woodworking and what it would take to start.


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## JarodMorris (Nov 24, 2011)

That's great. It is always fun to really make someone's day and give them something they were not expecting and expect nothing in return for it.


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## REK (Aug 30, 2009)

I have two types of product-fast and furious, and really good. Fast and furious pays the rent, and really good is the bone for the dog. Some folks just have a need to be met, others have a want. I don't think I will ever be an artist, I am just a guy with a lot of tools and I do my best. The value of a product is determined by what makes everyone happy.


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## kizerpea (Dec 2, 2011)

so i get it…..this is about ducks …right!...lol


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## mojapitt (Dec 31, 2011)

Mark,

I admit that I am guilty of selling lower than I should at times. But I also don't talk down from my asking price. My attention to this website has caused my skill level to improve a lot. Better skill, better product equals higher prices. I have raised my prices from a year ago. By this time next year I would expect them to be somewhat higher because I expect me to be better. I will always have some limitations because of where I live. But I have a full-time job and I am trying to develop this for the future. At least I think I am going in the right direction.


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## Tennessee (Jul 8, 2011)

Boy, what a lot of different angles that have been discussed. Here's my humble take…
When I started out doing commissions in the early 70's, I charged about $10 an hour for my labor, cost of the wood and an additional small percentage for tool usage and that was it. It was part-time, not my main job. We declared it as additional income on the taxes and all was well. Obviously I sold cheaply.

This went on right through my refinishing years, from 1967 through 1988. But we made a distinct change when refinishing. I had a partner through the refinishing years, and when we went out to look at say, a dining room set, if the house was nice and the cars were nice and we knew there was money, we added 50% to the job. Unscrupulous? Maybe, but over the span of 12 years, we counted on one hand the number of jobs we didn't get. We did great work, got right-ups in the paper and usually had a three month backlog. At one point, eight antique dealers were clamoring to have us do their work.

But in reality, different people have different takes on amounts of money. That's why you can't make any money at flea markets or even most local little fairs and festivals. Those people who visit those are not really flush with money, and you either sell nothing, or get knocked down, or you sell at a loss. My wife and I went to a recent fair, and there was this same guy I had seen at one fair 45 days ago, selling the same pieces he had obviously taken home the last time! He looked depressed…

When I started selling guitars, I aimed at the lower market. I started out selling at $275-350. It was crazy. Slowly, over the months as they started selling I raised my prices. My usual price now is somewhere in the $575-750 range and I plan on adding maybe another $100 in January. And I build them faster than I ever did since I have a standard work process in place now. What used to take 16-20 hours a guitar is now down to 12-14 hours. And I have tried my best to lower my costs, waste, and so on. But it's still part-time, not my main job, and I would NEVER depend on it. The old adage of, "A woodworker makes and sells things until he runs out of wood", is applicable here.

Now, with my bandsaw boxes and other boxes, my wife said I should do a fair or festival. I actually refused. I just cannot imagine sitting in a chair for eight-ten hours, watching people come by and having at least 10% of the guys tell their wives, "I can build that". I instead took six of my boxes to the most respected antique dealer in my area and he took five of them on consignment. Some shops turn me down, some don't. My guitar box is sitting in a music store with a nice, high price on it. Let them do the selling, I build in their percentage, and let it roll.

I also intend to hit the art galleries with some of my more strange boxes, on the premise of "art". Art is so subjective, you give something a name, like my "Water on Wood" piece I posted here that made top three, it gives it credibility. I have a box on the table now I call "Mother and Son". Big deal who cares, but that could make it sell with a little placard next to it in a gallery for $250-300. I plan on the "Water on Wood" table going into a museum where hi-level artists put their stuff for sale, probably for about $800. Why not? What's the worst that can happen? It doesn't sell? It's four pieces of wood that took me about 4-5 hours to make around other projects. And all of the wood was local and free, which being local actually lends credence to the project in a local museum!

So if you want to make money on your stuff, it comes down to two things. Location-Location-Location, (and some timing), and secondly, Follow The Money.


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## REO (Sep 20, 2012)

The old saying"you get what you pay for" does not apply. "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder"certainly does. 
If I can produce the same quality faster and get the same price is that not the name of the game? the process brings down the price because demand decreases. People want to be considered an "artist". there are wide ranges of definition from skilled to CON. I like to do things that people have been told cant be done. Sometimes I do it for the money, sometimes just for the challenge. If I cant make it fast enough to make the money I find a way to make it faster AND maintain the required quality or I move on to something else.

Hmmmm. haven't tried ducks yet.


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## AKSteve (Feb 4, 2012)

Mark I think you are spot on. I will be selling my work, but I am going to ask for a butt load of money for my projects. I look at it this way. I consider it art when I follow my own designs and create my own work by hand. My Selling point is that it is all hand made no power tools involved, so of course there will be flaws in the work, not to say they are intentional but because of the use of only hand tools. I know a lot of people can churn out work in there garage and make a ton of of furniture from Designs and drawings but the key in my opinion is to take what you have learned and combine different styles and procedures to come up with an original. I won't be selling my originals in a Craft show or yard sale or anything thing like that I will be going straight to the most High end places I can find. and make a name for myself, I want people to ask is that an original from Stephen? I will probably be as poor as dirt but I am not in it to get rich, I have had a full life so far and I don't do bad in my current occupation, but I am not happy I would rather live in rags and be happy then slaving away at a job I hate. and working with my hands is what I want to do.


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## rance (Sep 30, 2009)

> "A woodworker makes and sells things until he runs out of wood"
That's funny… and interesting.

I've always believed that if folks are beating your door down, your prices are too low. Price can be used as a regulator of your work load.


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## Tennessee (Jul 8, 2011)

Well Rance, so far I'm in no danger of running out of wood! But I still think I'm too low.


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## AKSteve (Feb 4, 2012)

Tennessee Aren't we all ! LOL


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## EPJartisan (Nov 4, 2009)

I have a case of the grass in greener on the other side. I am an artist.. solidly within my being, more than a profession it is a complete lifestyle which I loved, hated, sacrificed for … and tried to get rid of. Literally, people like me see the world differently.. i have since I was 6 years old, and I have always been reminded how I just do not fit in anywhere. Art has been my savior, my dark beast, my anxiety, my sheer joy and pleasure.. now at age 40 is it beautiful. I can fully express the way I see things, but only because I made a serious choice early on… I will have nothing to do with money.

I have an amazing life. I come from a very violent and poor background, but art was my ticket to the entire world. I knew early on that I was never going to be wealthy… for all I want to do is make beautiful things and not worry about markets and sales. I knew early on that I can not understand the concept of money… it has been easy for me to work hard and earn it… but the games the world plays with it for value and power.. I just can not fathom. Wealth for me comes in the beauty of being alive. I view all of this from the point of view most of you would like to be in.. I have no money problems.. I never will again. But that is not what this string is about… it is about value.

I decided almost a decade ago to work under a patron system, which totally pays for my studio. For my own life, I manage a web hosting and computer consulting business, but I don't ever see the paychecks.. nor do I know what my check book looks like. Or what my credit card bills look like. I have no real idea how much I spend in my studio… I buy.. I make.. I live. A Patron system is a select group of wealthy individuals who see me as an investment.. they more they support me, the more I will make, the better I become.. the more my work is worth. They get a helpful hand from me on anything, and they help me with anything. They get special gifts of personal subject matter, they invite me to dinner parties with politicians and famous people. I get experiences I can use in my art. I have traveled the world 3 times, studied art in Ireland and Italy… but this is not to brag this is to set you up to understand my point of view. I come from a humble beginning, I really worked and sacrificed and now my bank account is always full. The contrast is.. my life is easy and cheap.. I have no kids, I have no lofty dreams of owning anything. I am frugal and research the best for the best price.. and often that doesn't matter anyway.. but I still do it. Money is am evil and so much is inflated in price and low in quality. I find that disgusting. I do not take on new clients or commissions, unless it truly means something to me. I need a story, I need to believe in what I make.. you can give me $5 or $5,000 and you'd get the same from me… no story = no work.

Okay.. so why I am writing this…this luxury is utterly painful. I am a bird in a gilded cage. I am afraid of rejection, I have no sense of value in my work. I can not price myself.. I can not sell myself. The entire universe is open to me.. and yet I stand transfixed and afraid to move.. Lost and confused at what to do first.. and what does it all mean? If my patrons leave me who am I? Can I survive? I have lived an amazing life, bit I think of myself as a talented looser. I have no struggle to give me direction, no reason to run, no reason to stop and smell the same ass flowers I have been smelling. everything feels the same, it all means nothing.

I have used assistants to give me perspective. I need to be responsible for someone to take more responsibility for myself. But assistants are flakey unless I pay a lot for them.. and then I worry if they are working for the money and not for me or the art. I am a paycheck.. it makes me sick because I am not a checkbook.. I am a human with a lot of knowledge and skills to share. I say I pay myself $25 an hour… but I really have no idea. I know i can pay well for assistance, but finding the right assistant is a challenge… I can not pay for devotion and loyalty.

I Tried Etsy for my "Artifacts".. I sold whole sale at stores… I even did a tent fair a few weeks ago. All efforts to find value. I give more gifts than I earn (I like making people cry in joy) and one-on-one sales are awesome, but intimidating. I have a fear of people which definitely holds me back. I am working hard to satisfy a grant for 10 pieces and a show. I want to try the SOFA show, or One of a KInd show. But the issue is always the same… the world sees with monetary value.. I don't, so how do I define value? How much is my work worth to strangers.. I need the validation of strangers because I don't know if my patrons over pay to keep me happy. I have a great life, but one which has no direction. Money.. dare I believe it, but it gives me a sense of value and worth amongst the masses of people out there.

My goal only in life is to make it into the art history books. I will not have children, so my hope is to leave behind me a record that honors not only myself and work, but my friends and family, so that we can all live far beyond our years. All I want to do is make amazing things. I read that all of you are worried about making money.. and I do too, but for a totally different reason.. I am lost, often lonely, and I get depressed that life is banal. This is why I come to LJs.


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## Tennessee (Jul 8, 2011)

Eric:
Wow…I was thinking exactly what you addressed when you typed the word "Okay", and explained yourself.

I only know one other person even remotely like you, a dedicated blues player who lives and breathes his music. He struggled for weeks to get up enough money to buy one of my guitars. We traded over 240 e-mails. I could feel his lonliness as I built the guitar. 
I don't pretend to understand how you came to be in this Patron system, but I think at 40 you are still well young enough and obviously talented enough to find out what you are really worth.
How does your work stack up against more "money oriented" artists? What would yours bring? You can find out your place by comparison more than the torment of going through the levels of learning. I would seriously consider starting a "second life" on the side, and putting that money aside for yourself. I know you say you hate money, but you seem to have no problem spending it. It's not evil, it is humans that make it evil.

But on the other hand, you would eventually have to give up not only the gilded cage, you would also give up a great measure of protection, something that a lot of people would be willing to try as they struggle just to eat their next meal.

I could not do what you do. My pricing on my stuff is often touted as too low, but then I do also have a satisfaction in hearing players play my guitars, or having someone tell me how much they like whatever it is I built. But I could never, ever give up my freedom to make my own decisions. Never.


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## mojapitt (Dec 31, 2011)

Eric, you're welcome any time to come to my world and work. You sound very genuine, but you should see a non-controlled environment is like.

Rance, I totally agree. If things are selling too easily, prices will be pushed up. On the same token, the last couple hours of any show I'll deal a little more so I don't have to take it home.


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## riverguy (Sep 30, 2012)

Wow! It's good to read so many different perspectives on the age-old artist's dilemma.

I make art-glass and fine-woods lamps, and I have come to the place where I sell most of them in galleries, on consignment. Therein lies the Big Issue with artists who consign their work: How do you come up with a price that allows you to keep doing what you love to do, yet is still affordable after the gallery DOUBLES IT?

Then, as the artist, I think to myself that if folks are willing to pay $800 - $2000 for my lamps in a gallery, how could I market them myself and somehow find a balance between the artist's price of a consigned piece and the gallery retail?

I make out the best when somebody sees my work in a gallery and then calls me to consign a piece similar to what they saw there, but fitting more closely into their personal environment. I thoroughly enjoy doing work for a client like that. Enter the next artist's dilemma: What do I charge this client? The client obviously knows about gallery markups, so am I obligated to sell to a client at consignment prices?

Most galleries will allow participating artists to sell to a client referred by them as long as they get a 10% commission, so what I do is split the difference between the gallery consignment price and their retail. That's what I charge the client, and then after paying the gallery their 10%, I'm still ahead of what I would net from a gallery sale.

It's tough. I keep fairly busy doing my art, and it contributes to our retirement income. But I sure couldn't live off of it. If I started doing, say, half a dozen of each piece instead of making each an original in every way, I could produce way more work in the same amount of time. I'm considering starting a new line of lamps to that end. They would be marketed as "Limited Editions," runs of five or maybe ten.

You can look at some of the stuff I do and see how time consuming it is to do all of the necessary setups for each cut of each of the many pieces that go into one lamp. I could do ten of each part in a minute or two extra time.

As long as there is art, the issues with selling it will remain. Artists are generally not skilled marketing persons, and even if they are, they resent the time needed to do the marketing. Galleries charge huge markups, but most of them are just scraping by doing what they love doing best.

It always seems to come back to a labor of love, doesn't it? I am a retired general contractor and cabinet/furniture builder, so there are certainly ways I could earn more dollars per hour. But at this point in my life, my soul needs nourishment, too, do I do art!

http://www.glassandwood.net


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## MarkTheFiddler (May 29, 2012)

All of you lumberjocks are a treasure. I mean it. I appreciate every one of you for your passion and talent. There were so many times that I just wanted to jump back into this post but what can I say?

Maybe this.

You all know how to use the tools of the trade to produce something special. When there isn't a tool to get the job done, you make one. I have already learned a great many things about tools and jigs from you all. The lessons you have taught me about the right tools and how to use them are turning me into a woodworking artist.

One of you actually said you are learning from me. I have seen his work and I know that I will be on the learning side of our friendship.

What gets me is some of you believe your work is crap or you don't believe you are an artist. I'm happy to tell you that we don't believe you because you have shown us otherwise.

I have seen you lumberjocks make the mundane awesome.
I have seen some that are fearless and can both visualize and create stunning pieces.
I have seen you treat nature's gifts with reverence because you know what the gift wants to be. 
I have seen you rescue nature's gifts that we callously considered garbage and made something spectacular.
You proove time and time and time again that simplicity is awesome.
You show that the wood doesn't need our help to be beautiful.
You can do in 8 hours what would take me a month.
You know how to break the mold the right way.
You are masters whose offcuts from a practice project are better than my best.
You are artists who creations are used by other artists. I just have to say - I'm your biggest fan.
And your are artists who show their mastery by being a mentor who can create through other peoples hands.

Guys, I know what I just did is as corney as all get up. I was trying trying to pay a clever tribute to you all and in a roundabout way, tell you that I think you all ARE artists. I wanted to insinuate that your work is greatly valued. If you can't sell at a good price to the public, try to keep your work in the family so your progeny will be wealthy by your hand. And just remember - those riches can mean just about anything.

Anyhow - It's the thought that counts so I'll remind of how I started this post. You all are a treasure!


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## MarkTheFiddler (May 29, 2012)

Eric,

If you see this, indulge me for a moment. I don't know squat about the patrons' motivation for supporting you. I don't anything about you other than what I read right here in this post and the projects you have posted.

I'm going take a wild guess at the patrons' purest and best motivations. They are supporting you because they believe you are making a gigantic contribution to the art world. Their contribution to the art world is giving you the opportunity to be unfettered by bills, hunger, management of a business etc etc. An incredibly talented man who has the opportunity to be devoted to his art will create some items that are priceless. I am not exaggerating when I say that one day the patrons expect there to be a museum tour of your work. I went to a Picasso exhibit - I am talking about the exact same thing.

If you are familiar with the heirarchy of needs you may remember that self actualization is at the very top of the pyramid. Given time, some people will reach the highest pinnacle of human potential and acheive it. Think about the patrons assisting by removing the rough spots in your life. They may be trying to clear the way so another extremely rare person can reach that highest pinnacle of human acheivement.

I believe your goal to be in the art history books is well acheived Eric.

And all of that matters ZERO if you are not happy. Today - I hope you smile a little.

Mark


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## BHolcombe (Sep 19, 2012)

History of sales is a good indicator, if you are going to continue increasing your prices Y-O-Y and show a history of customers paying those prices (not literally, but a history of having 'clients' helps).

In all honesty if you are doing work inspired by another artist you will be lumped into a category that has predetermined pricing, you will not get what the originals are getting and you will be in competition with what other artists are getting for similar pieces. The discount would need to be enough to justify buying an 'inspired' piece and also keep in mind some people are simply not willing to buy them (myself included). I make one exception in that, and that is the work of a well trained family member of the artist paying tribute to them, and still they will likely sell at a discount to the original artist, but not as much as an artist producing inspired pieces.

If you are building original pieces then you be able to drive your own market, it will be determined by who is willing to pay the price you are asking. When someone invests in an original piece, they are often looking for an artist who will not aggressively discount their piece to get the sale, who raises prices every year and who is determined to be acknowledged in their own right.


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## PyNCy (Jan 6, 2012)

I agree with everything said here! The big thing is the Wal-Mart mentality. We have to compete with the low-cost, sometimes low-quality stuff at Wal-Mart, so we bring our prices down to meet it. But it's not really our fault that we have to do that. The public expect to see those prices at shows b/c they see them at Wal-Mart (and other stores). I believe most people can't tell the difference between going to Wal-Mart or going to a craft show. They act like it's the same thing. I can see it in some people's faces that they think, $40 for that frame?! I can get the same thing at Wal-Mart for half that much. A lot of people just don't understand the hard work and time and effort that goes into making something from scratch. They believe "from scratch" means mass-produced from China. That's the way it is at most of the shows I do. It helps if the promoter of the shows really tried to get their point across that this is a genuine art and craft show. I did a show recently that boasted only allowing fine arts and fine crafts. They want 3 or 4 pictures of your work and your workspace. We had to drive very far, and it was 4 days long. We get there, and it's all the same stuff that you see at the lower-end craft shows. We found out that it was actually 85% "country crafts" and only 15% fine arts and fine crafts. The people with the less expensive country crafts did a whole lot better than me, with my fine craft woodworking. I could tell that the people coming to the show expected to be able to pay nothing prices for what they were getting. I did sell a couple of my clocks, but only the $15 ones. Those people were completely turned off by my $60 music box. And pretty much even the $25 clocks. I did a show the week before that, and I was selling all kinds of stuff! This show wasn't really that far from the one I did that I had to drive far. But the people were completely different! I still say it was because the show I sold a lot at is nailed into people's heads that it's a quality fine arts and fine crafts show. The promoter does all he can to get the people in. The other show I didn't do well at, the promoter tried to get people into it, doing spots on the local tv channels THE DAY OF THE SHOW! What good does that do?! And they said the crafters "here" put their heart and soul into their works. How do you do that for DOG TREATS?!
Ok, I guess I've gotten off-topic a little  Is venting allowed here?  Bottom line is, I'm afraid we as woodworkers can't do much about pricing our works lower than they are worth. People feel we're just another Wal-Mart to shop at. A lot of that could be the economy, but I feel that if somebody wants something, if "it" is just the thing for their special someone, they will buy it anyway. That's been my experience at shows.


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## JarodMorris (Nov 24, 2011)

PyNCy,

Sorry you've had such mixed luck with shows. Don't lower your prices to what Wal-Mart sells things for unless you want to sell to the same people that shop at Walmart. I'm not saying it's easy to get the customers you want. I'm dealing with the same hassle with my industry (I'm not a professional woodworker).

jarod


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## Puzzleman (May 4, 2010)

PyNcy, You said it when you talked about the difference in the customers of the the two shows discussed. Don't blame the people or the promoter for poor sales. Realize that you learned that you will not go back to that show again. I have done a lot of stinker shows and will not go back to them. Some of my stinkers are ones where my friends do very well but I don't. Different products for different people and areas. Where I can blow the lid off in sales at shows, some of my friends just do OK and have low sales.

Having bad shows is a learning experience and chalk it up to that. Every time I have a bad show, I learn something. A show not to apply for any year.

Customers will pay good prices for products but you have to find your right customers. You need to get a profile of who your ideal customer is and look for shows in those areas. I don't just show up for a show that I haven't researched the area. Still find new stinkers occasionally but it is few and far between.


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