# The Dark Ages



## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Creationism is stupid. Intelligent design is an imprudently oxymoronic term. While belief in a divine creator is, in my opinion, misguided at best, it is not necessarily stupid; many intelligent people believe in some kind of God. God should be a matter of opinion, but sadly it is an instrument of institution and oppression. I can allow for this latitude concerning divinity as, speaking scientifically, there is a possibility, an exceptionally remote possibility, that God is real. On the other hand, speaking philosophically, I can happily and unequivocally announce that there is no God. This is a debate that will never be resolved. Creationism, and its misshapen child, Intelligent Design, however, is indisputably without any intellectual or scientific merit. While those who believe in it may have been led astray or not truly understand the nature of the argument, those who advocate Creationism/ID are committing acts of a most profound and disturbing level of intellectual deceit and moral repugnance. Creationism is quite literally a preposterous proposition; it stupefies me that people believe in it.


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## woodworkerscott (Sep 12, 2010)

FAITH exists only when there is no evidence.


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## BrandonW (Apr 27, 2010)

I think he's just hoping to stir up a hornet's nest, rather than looking for honest responses from people.


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

Amazing


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Brandon, do you accuse me because you disagree? I look for intelligent responses beyond just the word "faith". Waho6o9, I agree that it is amazing that anyone can believe in such hogwash. Science has advanced us beyond such simple thinking. Katdaddy what proof do we have of creationism other than faith?


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)




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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

For the simple minded…


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Katdaddy, why does my keffiyeh so bother you? What does it have to do with creationism?


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Katdaddy, what are your thoughts on creationism and intelligent design? I would like to know.


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## Dwain (Nov 1, 2007)

What does this have to do with woodworking? I understand the idea of the off topic forum, but this is ssoooo off topic, and I have yet to see much woodworking content. I understand an occasional post that is off topic, but DKV, you live there…Seems to me you are just getting people riled up. I would suggest you find a blog with followers more interested in your rants…By the way, I agree with you, but I'm smart enough to realize that lumberjocks really isn't the place for that kind of discussion…


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## BrandonW (Apr 27, 2010)

I agree with Dwain. I don't see this topic being productive or worthwhile in the least, no matter one's take on the subject.

Let's see some more of your woodworking projects, DKV. That's what most of us come here for.


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## MontanaBob (Jan 19, 2011)

faith is belief without proof. This can also be called "delusion". Please seek mental help if you have faith

"There exists in society a very special class of persons that I have always referred to as the Believers. These are folks that have chosen to accept a certain religion, philosophy, theory, idea or notion and cling to that belief regardless of any evidence that might, for anyone else, bring it into doubt. They are the ones who encourage and support the fanatics and frauds of any given age. No amount of evidence, no matter how strong, will bring them any enlightenment. They are the sheep that beg to be fleeced and butchered, and who will battle fiercely to preserve their right to be victimized."-James Randi


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Dwain and Brandon, do I have to remind you that this is the nonshop section? Why does it bother you two so much that I use the nonshop section for nonwoodworking topics? If you have a creationism/ID opinion please let me hear it. Otherwise, restrict your time to the woodworking sections since it seems this section bothers you so much.
MontanaBob, thank you for your opinion. I would like to hear some opinions in support of ID with the word faith not included. Per your post that does not seem possible.


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## MontanaBob (Jan 19, 2011)

If it all started from a big bang, then where did id come in to the picture….at that instant, or never take your pick….


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

The big bang was a result of a god's finger snap…to the best of my knowledge.


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## MontanaBob (Jan 19, 2011)

okay


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## doughan (Apr 22, 2011)

montana and dvk
You have faith that the sun will rise tommorow….do you not?Why ?
For 100's of thousands of years humans have believe in gods,omens and higher powers.That will never change.Why?
Because being the owner of a brain with a finite number of synaptic gaps we are totatly incapable of concieving of the infinate…some more then others…so because we can't see the end of the knowledge we posses we can not see where it all goes…does the universe have an end?if so what is beyond that?see where this leads?

The circular universe einstein spoke of is exactly this
.Muslims are only wrong in the rules for living that they adhere to…christians the same…all other religeons too

That being said….muslims are crazy beyond belief!


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## PineChopper (May 21, 2012)

But you believe an animal that rots underground creates oil?
LOL


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

I'm a little confused why it's necessary to attack someones beliefs ? I can only guess what others have said that your looking for a debate. If you don't believe in God that's you right just the same as it is my right to believe God is real and Omnipotent.
God Bless


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## GregD (Oct 24, 2009)

Creationism and Intelligent Design are frauds. They assert as true statements about the physical history of the Earth that are known to be false. They also claim to be the result of good-faith application of the scientific method when in fact they are the result of a process that is the antithesis of the scientific method.

You certainly have a right to believe in things that are known to be false. But I'm going to take issue when known falsehoods are claimed to be true. On the other hand many Judeo-Christian religious traditions happily accept that the creation stories in the Bible are not intended as literal histories, and value them for their religious themes, not their historical details. Repudiation of Creationism and Intelligent Design is not an attack on religious beliefs in general. It is only a defense of science and a desire that our civilization not fall back into another dark ages.


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## BobM001 (Jan 8, 2012)

DKV,
Your atheistic dribble is spoken by a TRUE "left coaster" living in "Pelosiland". Or is that "Mexifornia"? Can *YOU* prove without any doubt that a SUPREME BEING *DOES NOT* exist? That somewhere in our millenia of human history an intelligence/being far superior than man didn't "shape" our existance as we know it? I'll put it a more simple way for you. Did you love your father/mother? *PROVE IT!*


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## GregD (Oct 24, 2009)

BobM001 - It seems to me that DVK has clearly admitted that the non-existence of God cannot be proven. Creationism and Intelligent Design, however, are different things entirely, and in fact are indisputably without any intellectual or scientific merit as DVK states. One's geographical location seems besides that point.

But if you want to press the issue, his statement, speaking scientifically, there is a possibility, an exceptionally remote possibility, that God is real is hardly atheistic dribble but in fact a very logical position. Scientific progress has not been a succession of brilliant inspirations wherein the correct answer popped into someone's head. Rather it has been a process wherein a lot of effort is focused on making one tiny improvement, and the right answer almost always emerges only after eliminating a huge number of wrong guesses. Even scientific geniuses have to work rather hard to make contributions that are quite modest in the grand scheme of things. If your idea of God is even remotely correct, then this idea came from a truly divine inspiration, the likes of which has not been observed ever in the history of scientific inquiry. I'll put it in a more simple way - if your idea of God is correct, it would be the one and only time in the history of science that God told someone the "right" answer. In every other instance known to man we have had to sweat bullets for each tiny detail that we've ever figured out.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Political and religious post always seem to end up the same "I'm right" versus "no I'm right" Does anyone really think they will change the opposing persons point of view by spouting how wrong the other persons views are ?
I think not !


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

DKV,

Where were you born?

Where were you schooled?

How about a picture or two of you shop and tools?

Where are you parents from?

What do you think of Sharia law?

Why do you think the Government should have so much say in our lives?

In your opinion should American have the right to own guns?

What do you think about so many illegals entering this country?

Is it right to take money from the hard working middle class to pay for all the resources the illegals use?

Do you think the USA is bad?

What a sleeper Cell and do you know any?

Are you bald under that thing wrapped around you head?

Do you ever wrap that thing so tight it effects your thinking?

Is your avatar really you?

Have you ever been arrested?

Do you work for a living?

Do you like pork rib?

Have you ever had a "kick back" or otherwise been injured in the shop while woodworking?

What did you have for dinner last night?

Do you personally own any firearms?

Did you ever serve in the military and what country if yes?

Are you married and if yes, more than once?

Do you know how to fly an airplane?

Which hand do you use in the bathroom?

Do you think government should tell us what to eat?

What do you think of the food stamp program?

Do you think our president should go around the world kissing everybody asses?

Should we further cripple our military by cutting funding.

I have a 100 more questions for you but I'll see how you do on these and see if I'm wasting my time?

Looking forward to your answers.

-Alaskan's for Global warming!


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## GregD (Oct 24, 2009)

a1jim - I guess I'm an optimist. I do in fact hope that sometimes a discussion of differences of opinion between people will result in at least one of them changing their mind, or at least getting a better appreciation for the different opinions.

Some people have pushed for Intelligent Design to be put into the science curriculum of public schools, so this is not an esoteric topic - it has real implications. There are important distinctions between differing opinions on the one hand, and facts vs. falsehoods on the other. God may well be behind the creation of the universe and the evolution of life on Earth, but there are many important reasons to reject Creationism and Intelligent Design as our best guess of the means by which God guided those processes.

But you have a point in that this thread has not been much more than dueling monologues shouting "I'm right". I'm happy to detail my objections to Creationism and Intelligent Design if anyone wants to go there.

Whether or not God exists is for me an esoteric question with few if any practical consequences. For so many their faith adds a lot to their quality of life, and I would not want to take that from anyone (so long that faith is not used as an excuse to do something objectionable to someone else). Even in the case that God is a figment of imagination, the benefit is no less real. For those of us aspiring to apply the scientific method, we still cannot invoke "because God said so" even if it happens to be true. We cannot claim something to be true until we can demonstrate that it must be because that is the game we choose to play.


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## IrreverentJack (Aug 13, 2010)

*Does anyone really think they will change the opposing persons point of view by spouting how wrong the other persons views are ?*

Yes. That is the way it works Jim. Someone believes something foolish, people tell them why they are being foolish and if that person can think for themselves, their view evolves. -Jack


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## lumberjoe (Mar 30, 2012)

DKV, this argument is stupid. I am 100% sure I am more intelligent than you are by reading your posts. I am not going to weigh in on your dumb question, but instead pose another*. What does it matter?* Does it offend you? Oh well, pull up your big boy pants and go play in another sandbox. I guarantee you I could say something 1000 times more offensive that would have you seeing red and looking to murder me in my sleep and it would be my right to do so. I chose not to beause of the answer to my question - *it doesn't matter*

Again, I am not stating my position on ID/Creationism vs science. *It doesn't matter*. One of the many awesome things about being human is being able to think, believe, and feel what you wish and what you feel is right. When you try to take that away from anther human, you are just being a dick. Does it HURT you that people believe in ID? I doubt it. Are you suffering physically or financially because people think a magical being in the sky snapped his fingers and "poof" here we are? No, it does not. Does it hurt Christians to think that maybe there is no God and we evolved from dust? No, it does not. So we all need to just get over it.

I would have a problem if my children school taught only one theory and not the other. As I said, humans have free will. Let the information flow and let people pick and choose what they want to believe. At the end of the day, *it does not matter how we got here*. We are all here, that is the only thing that matters.

I have no problem with religion, I have no problem with absence of religion; agnostic or atheist. I have no problem learning constructively about other religions. In fact I have been quite schooled on the topic of many of the worlds major religions in a formal collegiate setting. I do have a problem when information sharing becomes agenda pushing. That is when arguments, fights, and ultimately oppression and wars take place. Religion, whatever it may be is not the cause. It's people like you with an agenda to push that are the problem.

Stop trying to change peoples minds. Embrace and respect people for their differences


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

For those that do not believe in God (or what ever name you wish to choose, don't care) the odds that we exist on this island of a planet, with the conditions that we have - tempurature, air, food, winds, etc… We have beauty, color, touch, taste, sight, smell … and have the thought processes to use them, enjoy them, even exploit them … where our total existence is always on an extremely fine thread where a 15 degree difference or and asteroid hitting the earth would eliminate all life as we know it. Without divine intervention or oversight, the odds would be so remarkable that I submit to you, we would be the absolute dumbest creatures in the universe (especially if we are the only ones) to constantly fight over whose definition of God or whether there is a God - in some cases to the death, is correct.

We should always treasure the day, the beauty we see, touch and feel, who we are, who we are with, and what we do - just in case we are right or wrong. But we know this is not going to happen, its all about that control thing - isn't it


> ?


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## BillWhite (Jul 23, 2007)

DKV? Das Klline Volkswagon?
Get a life on another forum.
Bill


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## Swyftfeet (Jun 15, 2012)

I'm new here, but this is what we would call trolling on other sites. It's not that I disagree, just wasn't subtle or entertaining at all.

I'll give you a 1/10


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## GregD (Oct 24, 2009)

lumberjoe -

I would have a problem if my children school taught only one theory and not the other.

I *do* have a problem if ID is taught in public school *as if it were science*. It is not a scientific theory. Would you care to discuss the characteristics of ID and how they do not satisfy the requirements of a scientific theory? Science is my trade, and it matters very much to me whether we get it right or not. Would you like your children to be taught a process to do long division that gets the answer wrong?

Let the information flow and let people pick and choose what they want to believe.

Really? While it is certainly a person's right, I suppose, to believe that water is not wet and fire is not hot, there are at least a few things that are known to be true and a few things that are known to be false and it can be of significant practical importance to know and accept this knowledge.

_


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## Jim Jakosh (Nov 24, 2009)

I believe in Creation! I am a Catholic and proud of it. I believe in heaven and hell and do not believe in any form of God that would have followers kill somone because they did not believe they way they do. That is what Jihad does and it is *WRONG*. It is brainwashing of those followers who think they will be getting 72 virgins if they blow themselvss up. People like the Muslim killers of the 911 flights are not getting any virgins- they are burning forever in the files of Hell!!!!!!!!!!!! If the suicide bombers were not brainwashed, they would take a different stand in life. 
If they would channel all their energy into doing something good, what a nice place the earth would be. Instead they choose to be a form of cancer that is eating away at the world like no other group!!

I believe that The 10 Commandments are the law and when we used to follow them , how much nicer the world was! God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for their wickedness and we are going down that path with our new age ideas. The world will pay for it!...Then you will believe in God!


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## lumberjoe (Mar 30, 2012)

As I mentioned, I am very versed in both theories. I do not care to share my opinions here but I will say I am more aligned with you than with others. As as scientist you should know that nothing is false until it is proven false. You cannot *prove* God does not exist. Yes, it is highly unlikely and to some, ridiculous that an omnipotent being or beings exists and created and controls everything we know.

When presented as a matter of theory, I feel there is benefit. Science is about exploration and deductive reasoning. How do you expect our children to learn these skills if they are only told one side of the story all the time? Give them the tools to think on their own. Let them hear both sides of the argument in an objective non-agenda pushing or sanctimoniousness manner.

Also, as most people would see it, fire is not hot. Most people equate fire with flames. If you don't believe me, pass your finger through the yellow/orange flame of a lit candle. You will be able to do so with no ill effects. It still freaks my kids out when I show them that.I am sure you are well aware that exothermic reaction is what creates the heat. You can easily create heat sans the presence of any fire with other (chemical) reactions.

Therein lies my point. I depends on what your definition of fire is.


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## GregD (Oct 24, 2009)

I'm pretty sure the Catholic Church rejects Creationism and Intelligent Design. They have conducted a fair bit of good science over the past few centuries. There was that unfortunate business with Galileo, though. More recently, I doubt Notre Dame or the other Catholic colleges in the US teach either Creationism or ID in their geology and biology departments.


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## Swyftfeet (Jun 15, 2012)

Wow! Jim, the Crusades, Spanish Inquisition(Very long ago) and many AIDS victims in Africa(due to present day catholic beliefs of birth control) would like to have a word with you.

People who worry about clean water have very different belief structures, affinity for a better afterlife, and are drawn to/brainwashed by talented orators due to lack of education than those that worry whether or not to have their WoodworkerII sharpened before their next project.

In the US its the Democrats or the Republicans that are ruining the country, over there its the Americans who empower the oil barons that are stripping their country of its natural resources, or back their age long opponent the Israeli state, while they starve in the streets. Hate is easy to propagate. Grandstanding as you just did just validates that there can be no compromise.

Faith is not rational, it requires belief. Neither of you are rational. Two irrational groups disagree on their fully irrational belief structure. Who would have thunk…


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Funny how the "there is no god guy" that started this post used to have his signature line "Fear Allah"

Suppose if there is no god - there was nothing to fear to begin with?

I especially like the OP's position statement that:

*God should be a matter of opinion, but sadly it is an instrument of institution and oppression.*

Written by a joker in a keffiyeh head scarf….that is truly rich!


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## IrreverentJack (Aug 13, 2010)

There is a difference between a myth and a theory. Righteous ignorance might make you feel good, but it's still ignorance. -Jack


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## GregD (Oct 24, 2009)

lumberjoe - the question of the existence of God is very different than the question of the accuracy or scientific validity of Creationism and ID. On the existence of God question, I have only belief, and I don't want to proselytize. If you want to give students a realistic and meaningful experience with the exploration and deductive processes of scientific investigation, you must pick a very specific question so that they can sufficiently master all the data and techniques necessary to make a compelling determination. It is preposterous that any meaningful independent evaluation on the origins of the Earth or on Evolution can be done within the context of a science course. The simplest explanation for the discussion of Creationism or ID in science curricula is that some people are pushing an agenda.

Your flame experiment is a demonstration of the difference between heat and heat transfer. The flame is hot, relative to temperatures humans find comfortable. But yes, it does take some time for that heat to actually burn your finger.


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## JollyGreen67 (Nov 1, 2010)

PineChopper - Then the moon Titan must be full of underground rotting critters.


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## renners (Apr 9, 2010)

I often wonder what will happen when life is discovered on another planet, moon or other celestial body. Will they put a postscript into Genesis such as…
...and He saw what He had created, and He was pleased, and then went off to Beta Gamma 121G x 303 to do the same thing there.


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## Hartmann (Jun 28, 2010)

hahahaha that's a good one Alaskaguy….... excellent questions…


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## MarkTheFiddler (May 29, 2012)

The most intelligent person I ever met had wholehearted faith in God and Jesus. I used to think that he willingly put on blinders to the truth. Then he started telling about the miracles that happened in his life. He shared his testimonies with me. I did the usual thing and attributed his miracles to coincidence and started to figure out how his miracles had rational - non mystical explanations. I spent a lot of time dwelling on the odd alignment of circumstance that could attribute to the miracles God had worked in his life.

Me I always said that I would believe if I saw a miracle with my own 2 eyes. If your heart is passionately set on providing a scientific explanation for everything, even when you or no one else in this entire world can prove your theory scientifically, you will never see a miracle unless God appears and starts to juggle the moon and stars. If your heart is softened a little, you just might see that miracle. My heart was softened.

I began to grow in my Christian faith. I began to pray. I went through a 6 month unemployment stint and we were at the end of our financial rope. Bad things were about to happen. I prayed desperately and confessed that I had tried everything in my power and nothing worked. I confessed that I had no idea what to do next. I fell asleep praying. The next morning, I was called at 8:00 AM as I was about to search for a job that paid perhaps half of what I was making. It was a call for an interview. That interview got me a good paying job. I was working again immediately.

Ok, I gave a testimony and I know what happens next because I did it myself many many times. You begin to pick apart what I said and find that there is a reasonable and measureable explanation. I understand why you do it. I also understand that I am at a minimum, blinded in some of your minds. Some of your less generous thoughts are to call me an idiot or worse. I get it. I expect it. I won't defend against the flaying.

The question is, why would I stick my neck out in a world where I will be subjected to ridicule and hostility? Well, call it obedience. Here is another thing, I never know when God is going to use me for his purposes. The more someone sticks their neck out for God, the more opportunity there is to be used by God.

I bet those words "Used" and "Obedience" are really kind of stirring in a negative way to same of you. I know they were despicable to me at one time. The difference between me then and now is that now: I Know that God is real. I Know that Jesus Christ is my savior. I know that God loves you. I know that God wants you desperately to know him.

Mark


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## lumberjoe (Mar 30, 2012)

And Mark is the reason why my post makes sense. Again, previously I never mentioned my actual beliefs. It still isn't relevant, but I was raised catholic, went to catholic schools for almost 20 years. Currently I am a man without faith. I'd like to think there is a higher power, but am not a believer. I do however lead my life in such a way that if I were to be judged by a supreme being, I think I'd be OK.

Claiming Christians are stupid is, well, stupid. I personally do not care what people believe in or not. Mark was going through a tough time, "God" got him through it. I put God in quotes (no disrespect Mark) because you could substitute that for whatever you like. He didn't go on welfare, he wasn't homeless, he didn't drink his life away or turn to drugs. He found SOMETHING to get him through. "God" did get him through. Again, "God" is in quotes because I do not believe a supreme being divinely intervened in Mark's life to help him out, but through Marks dedication and conviction to "God", he was able to stay focused, stay on his feet, and get by. Again Mark, no disrespect intended or implied.

Sometimes that is all the miracles you need. Everyone has to believe in SOMETHING. If you don't believe and they are not forcing it on you (as marks post was not) stop ********************ting on them and just be happy.


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## juniorjock (Feb 3, 2008)

Have any of you noticed that this guy starts a topic, gets everyone all fired up and then just sits back and watches? The problem isn't with this nut, it is us….. those that feed his needs (or whatever).


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## dakremer (Dec 8, 2009)

i didnt read any responses….but….

If creationism is ridiculous, what started it all? yes, i know, there are many (unproven) theories of "life from non-life" and the big bang theory, etc, etc, etc - by the way, all of those are just theories….not science (either), just like "creationism" is a theory. There's no more proof or "fact" that the big bang theory is any more right than creationism… Its all just theory.

What IS unscientific is disregarding creationism and intelligent design and not acknowledging it as a theory because you dont believe in a higher power…..

If it all started from one particle….if it all started from one atom….where did that first atom come from? It had to come from somewhere…..


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

"It's like the square root of a million-we may never know." Nelson Muntz - The Simpsons.


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## juniorjock (Feb 3, 2008)

Want to think about where we came from…........? How about thinking about where we are and where we're going? Think about it. What's out there….. in space? Does it go on and on and on….. or do you go so far and run into a giant wall? Okay…. then, what's on the other side of the wall???


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## jmos (Nov 30, 2011)

There are a lot of misunderstandings about science out there. A scientific theory is a completely different animal than what people generally use the term theory to describe. For example, two guys are sitting in a bar and one says 'I'm got a theory why the Eagles always choke in the playoffs.' It's nearly synonymous with opinion.

In science, observations are made, repeated and confirmed. Scientists develop an hypothesis which aims to explain the observations. Experiments are performed, and repeated, and confirmed. If the hypothesis is proven wrong it is discarded and others are developed. If a hypothesis explains a large number of observations, is consistent with experimental results, makes predictions that can be tested, and the tests are successful, and it becomes widely accepted as valid, then the hypothesis may be elevated to the level of a theory.

Germ theory of disease, the theory of relativity, and, yes, the theory of evolution (among many others). These are not some wild idea, they have been rigorously proven and have NEVER been falsified. They could be, as Huxley said, all that's needed to disprove evolution are 'fossil rabbits in the pre-Cambrian.'

This is one of the concerns many physicists have with String 'theory.' Its mathematically beautiful, but so far, doesn't make any testable predictions, and can't be falsified. It is not generally accepted as valid for those reasons.

ID and the like are not scientific theories, they are barely hypothesis. No experiments support them, they can not be falsified, they make no predictions. They are in league with the guy in the bar. While I really don't bother with what others believe, as long as they don't push it on me or my kids, I agree with Greg when I refuse to let drivel like ID in my kids schools. It is not science.

Further, as Carl Sagan said so eloquently "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." There is no such evidence for the existence of any super-natural deity. Science can't disprove any god (any one you would like to name, there are thousands), but no religion can prove their deity exists, and the burden of proof is on them to prove their extraordinary claim. Science can't prove unicorns and the Easter Bunny don't exist either, but it doesn't mean that they do.


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## juniorjock (Feb 3, 2008)

TLDR. sorry.


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

Hey gang, I just spent $3,400.00 cash and got my new upper teeth yesterday. I'm really happy with them and thanks for all of your concern.
Kind of ate into the old woodworking budget but I can safely knaw a tree down now…................


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## GregD (Oct 24, 2009)

Howie - bummer about the bill, but I hope them new chompers work out well for you. I can imagine things being difficult if you needed that much work.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

It doesn't make any difference how I got here. The important thing is, I am here.


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## GregD (Oct 24, 2009)

lumberjoe - there is a difference between calling Christians stupid, and calling Creationism stupid. The original post makes that distinction explicitly. Most of the Christians I know personally, and even Christian religions consider Creationism stupid.

dak - Creationism and ID are rejected by scientists because the evidence clearly refutes these conjectures. But seeing that this is the case takes a bit of effort.


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## dakremer (Dec 8, 2009)

I'm sorry Jmos, but the theory of evolution has not been "proven" - there's data supporting it, and theories backing it up, but it is by no means proven. There is also a lot of data and theories supporting creationism and ID. I actually believe in evolution, but I also believe that there was a creator. There always has to be a programmer of the program. DNA is a program - a (DNA) code cant write itself. It had to be created, and then it evolved. People who are completely biased against creationism and ID because they relate it to religion are in fact being unscientific themselves. To disregard a theory because of personal beliefs is unscientific. Faith and religion have nothing to do with it (for me at least). I believe something created the intelligence that makes up this world, but I also believe that intelligence was designed to evolve, and does evolve.


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## GregD (Oct 24, 2009)

Alaskaguy - I'll agree with you that the most important thing is that you are here. How you got here might have a little importance, however, especially if you are exploring for oil, for example.


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

Evolution is not something that a person "believes in" any more than 1 + 1 = 2 is something that a person "believes in". These things need to be studied and understood.

Once a person has a strong enough understanding of evolution, he understands that DNA did not have to exist before the process could get rolling.


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## lab7654 (Mar 31, 2012)

I think that this guy is the largest troll I've seen yet… and this is coming from a person who spends far too much time on YouTube, Facebook, etc.


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## jmos (Nov 30, 2011)

dakremer, all I can say is that ID fits none of the criterion that define a scientific theory. None. Not one. It is not science. Not even close.

Please, quote me some peer reviewed research that supports ID, I''d love to see it. Point to folks doing active ID research. One truly irreducibly complex organism and evolution is blown out of the water and you win a Nobel prize.

I'm not opposed to ID because it is religion (which it is) but because there is no evidence.

What Evolution does is exactly explain how information is added to DNA and how simple life forms become more complex. As for how we got from non-life to life, there are a lot of ideas, but not one that has been proven. Science does not claim to know everything. It is being researched, and I think it's highly likely that the problem will be solved. If you want to insert your God in that gap, more power to you, but the gaps keep getting smaller and smaller.

And, yes, evolution has been proven to the highest degree scientifically possible. It is one of the best tested most successful scientific theories of all time. It is just as well proven as relativity or germ theory, but those aren't as controversial because they don't hit so close to religious sensitivities.

I will ask this though, if life requires a creator, who created the creator?


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

lab7654,

I agree. Yet, I'm impressed with the level of discussion in this thread. It really has not degenerated as much as one might expect, given the subject matter.


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## doughan (Apr 22, 2011)

oh shut up chuckV…you have no idea what you are talking about….:0)


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## dakremer (Dec 8, 2009)

ChuckV, I suppose you have enough understanding of the subject to explain to me how DNA came into existence from non-DNA? I sure wish you could indulge all of us… because there would be 100s of thousands of scientists all around the world eagerly waiting to hear this. I also am a scientist and I understand the data and theories supporting evolution, but I also can't deny that science has not answered MANY (most) of the questions about where life began. There is also a ton of data and theories supporting the ideas of creationism.

I am on neither (and both) side(s). As a good scientist, I can't ignore either because each "side" has valid data and theories; non of which that have been proven or disproved. Its people who take this subject personally and emotionally instead of rationally and scientifically that turn it into a religion vs science debate….

jmos - read a book. There's plenty of good scientific theory and data backing up creationism. Not proving creationism, however. To not include it into the conversation because it hasnt been proven is the least scientific thing ever. Notice how i never once said anything about "god" or religion. I kept my response completely scientific. People against creationism (for what ever reason) are always the first people to bring up god and religion (like you just did - and i didnt miss that personal emotional attack blatantly thorough in there). Being open minded to things is what drives science. To be so closed minded is in fact unscientific.

oh and germ theory is proven?


> ?


? hahahahaha - thats about the least scientific thing i've read yet. (If you're reading the right literature, and not the politically and monetarily driven literature - there's far more GOOD literature disproving the germ theory) Germ theory is only proven and true when you want to sell drugs and medicine and make billions of dollars.

who created the creator? good question. No clue. Hopefully some day we'll find out or disprove it, until then I'll continue being a good open minded scientist….

All this talk about "good science" - and I havent read any good science on this forum topic yet! All I've read are emotional opinions.

I'm out - its been a while since i've partaken in a discussion like this on LJ's….it always just leads to trouble. I'll let you guys figure it out from here….if you come to a conclusion, PM me.


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

I am at a loss as to the "valid data" supporting creationism talked about by a couple of you. I am open to learning new information if someone would submit the data for review. This thread has gone well for a subject that can become very contentious and volatile. I'm proud of you all.


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

dakremer,

DNA is, and can be made out of common (but not household) chemicals.

Before I moved on to Laser interferometers seven years ago I worked as a process engineer improving processes for writing micro-array DNA slides for (human, rat, and Arabidopsis).

Wiki link
Images of micro-array

It is not a simple process but because we can do it, perhaps it happen in nature all by itself.

These slides are used by research facilities and pharmaceutical companies.

At first it sounds like science fiction but it is true and the benefit of these products has already been helpful in a number of catastrophic diseases such as breast cancer. The Arabidopsis DNA is being used to improve yields and help develop more disease and drought resistant crops.


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

*BobM001*,

You wrote;
"Your atheistic dribble is spoken by a TRUE "left coaster" living in "Pelosiland". Or is that "Mexifornia"?"

I consider that an insult just because DKV is way out there, don't blame us here on the left coast for this guy!

Considering all of the drivel he has posted and the divisiveness he has created in our LJ camp *how do we know he even lives in this country*!


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## Viktor (Jan 15, 2009)

dakremer: "by the way, all of those are just theories….not science" 
- but of course theory is not science, just like engine is not car.

Calling creationism a scientific theory shows utter lack of understanding of even the basic operative terms. Coming from a self-admitted "scientist" it sounds rather disturbing and gives new life to the claims of education system failure. Classifying creationism as conjecture or even hypothesis might earn you "C -" on a good day. Not to admit that it is such by any stretch, but to recognize cognitive efforts. While Evolution does have some metaphysical elements to it, a theory, among other things, implies testability and predictive power.

However, I would not go as far as to call creationism "stupid". It is purely political phenomena and psychological rather than biological subject matter. Creationism is merely an attempt to reduce cognitive dissonance, a defensive effort to reconcile myth with overwhelming and easily verifiable evidence to the contrary.


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

*dakremer*,

I suggest you start with Richard Dawkins' The Blind Watchmaker. In this book, he gives a way that other, simpler, self-replicating molecules could serve as a "scaffolding" for the evolution of DNA as it now exists.

For me, the most remarkable part of this book was the understanding that, as Dawkins says, "... living organisms exist for the benefit of DNA rather than the other way around." This might not make much sense taken out of the context of the book.

After this, you might try The Selfish Gene, which was written earlier but is a bit less accessible.

*doughan*,

I'm rubber you're glue - bounces off me and sticks to you! 

- Chuck


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## benchbuilder (Sep 10, 2011)

I agree with Dwian, this isn't the place for your opinions, talk woodworking or find a different site, I have enought problems in my life, I don't need to come here and see more. I come to this site for stress relief and fun doing what I enjoy. You can talk and say what ever you want, but there are the other places for you to voice your opinions, this isn't the one for yours…


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

I love being lectured about the lack of science in evolution from a chiropractor student…hahahahahahaha
Dak you consider yourself a scientist? oh, boy there isn't enough room in my post box for all the laughter…

There's plenty of good scientific theory and data backing up creationism. Ya and we are hot on the trail of a recent discovery that proves the existence of the Easter Bunny…

jmos - read a book Ya, man read a good book, based in scientific theory and practical evidence..like the Bible..


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## StreamDreamer (Jul 10, 2012)




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## jmos (Nov 30, 2011)

A chiropractor, that explains a lot. Please provide evidence of a subluxation? And viruses and bacteria don't cause diseases, that is an interesting thought. Sorry dakremer, your not a scientist, you're learning to peddle woo.

I'll recommend another good book, Lawrence Krauss 'A Universe from Nothing,' Brilliant book, explains current thinking on how everything could, and likely did, arise from nothing.

I do love how the theists find it so obvious that life and the universe are complex and had to be created, but don't seem bothered at all that mechanism they propose requires something far more complex, which would also have to have been created. Round and round we go.

Also, particles pop into and out of existence all the time. The effect is not only measurable, but required to accurately model the atom. It's not magic, it's science.


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## reedwood (Jan 27, 2011)

*I just wasted and hour reading this crap. *

All it did was piss me off. Nice way to start the day.

DKV is a Muslim antagonist looking for trouble and all of you fall for it.

He says "No God" - my ass. Unless it's Allah the pedofile.

Christians say, "love thy enemy" and "turn the other cheek" while Islamist assholes like this infiltrate every decent website I look at just to get you going. Look at his profile and read his history of comments. I did.

He's laughing at all of you. Wake up and stop trying to reason or convert him.

As an Atheist (survivor of being raised in a cult as a JW which distroyed my family) who still appreciates and respects Christian values, I would suggest we All block this Muzlim verbal bomb dropper and quit giving him what he wants - to divide us and distract us from why we are here: To share our "faith" in woodworking, art and sharing brotherly love and consideration.

.... and if Martin loves this beloved website like I do, he would fire (ban) him.


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## Dchip (Jun 30, 2009)

intelligent design? why do I have an appendix that does nothing and could kill me at any second? don't even get me started on male nipples…


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

*don't even get me started on male nipples…*

Haha….Nice..There are a lot of scientifically based and research driven reasons why men have nipples, but that's all scientific bullcrap..it's obviously, because God likes nipples, so he puts them on everyone..there..question answered..


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## GregD (Oct 24, 2009)

I guess I get a C- from *Viktor* - if it is a good day! Naw, I just looked up "conjecture" - I clearly deserve an "F", unless I was being sarcastic or extraordinarily generous. But especially because it is a political and psychological phenomena I think it is appropriate to call Creationism stupid because it is a deliberate choice to reject fact and embrace fiction; to define reality as how we would want it to be rather than accept reality the way it actually is.

I'm not sure we are all using the same idea of "Creatiionism". Rightly or wrongly I associate the term most closely with the idea that the Earth is 6000 years old, based on the "history" given in the Bible. That certainly doesn't fit the data in quite a number of fields of study, completely independent of the origins of life on Earth.

And I also associate "Intelligent Design" with efforts to refute evolution and natural selection as the process that generated the diversity of life forms on Earth. Biology is not my forte, but I'm pretty sure the theory of evolution has matured sufficiently to the point where it does fit the available data. Even if ID also fits the data, it doesn't pass the so-called "Occam's Razor" test because it asserts more complexity - a guiding intelligence - than is necessary to explain the data. As far as I know the origins of life on Earth is beyond the scope of what evolution can explain and remains an open question. There are, I'm sure, many open questions even within the scope of the theory of evolution. And maybe, sometime in the future, mankind will find with evolution what was found with Newton's laws of motion - there is indeed something more going on in the details than can be reasonably fit within the prevailing theory. That would be very cool.


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## GregD (Oct 24, 2009)

reedwood - what are you talking about? I see nothing inappropriate in DVK's posts on this thread.


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

You guys have nipples? I think I better go see my doctor.

Aren't they there to "test our faith"?


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## HoosierDude (Feb 22, 2010)




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## GregD (Oct 24, 2009)

Some light background reading on the topic:

A selection from creationism.org. The Earth is thousands of years old, they claim. www.answersingenesis.org seems more substantive. Notice that these folks start from a strongly biased perspective, the veracity of the book of Genesis. That is, in fact, scientifically acceptable, provided the subsequent collection and evaluation of the data is not contaminated by the bias.

Similar ilk on the other side of the coin is provided by www.ncse.com. This page looks to have interesting references. Also see www.talkorigins.org. This page might be a good starting point.

Some geology and some astrophysics. This section of this last article seems relevant. Current thinking in these fields is that the Earth is over 5 billion years old.

But then who can trust wikipedia? Maybe this page from www.conservapedia.com seems more trustworthy?

I'm sure many have strong opinions about the Stanford University, and will read this page summarizing creationism in that context. It is a long page, but I think worth skimming at least.

My it is complicated. Who ya gonna believe? Who seems to be pushing an agenda? Who seems most earnest in their effort to present an accurate view?


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

And we all know that anything on the internet is irrefutable..just like everything in the Bible actually happened..


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## EdwardR (Mar 24, 2012)

Well the fact that this crap can go on here has led me to beleive that i no longer need to participate in this forum. not the time or place for this.

I have my beleifs and they are mine i do not try to sell them to others.

see ya im gone.


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## Bob817 (Nov 17, 2011)

Okay Folks, he got you people going it seems this is what he wanted. This is a never ending subject. Politics Anybody?


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## dakremer (Dec 8, 2009)

Hehe I love when people try to insult me with things like "oh he's a chiropractor, that explains it".

Ignorance is bliss (just like being closed minded)

And whether we were created or evolved from a piece of dust doesn't have any relavence on how I live my life or how I'm going to live my life. I'm open to the possibility that we were created by a "higher power.". I'm also open to the possibility that we evolved from a single particle of matter (that came from no where apparently). Neither has been proven or disproven. And if u think evolution has been proven - show me one research study that has produced evolution, and is repeatable. Can't even be shown in the simplest organism with only 390-some genes (which by the way is the single smallest organism that we can reduce to). As far as science knows, nothing living can exist with less than 390 genes. If this is true then how did we jump from 0 genes to an organism with 390 genes? Hopefully science will some day find out. You guys are attacking me, because you are labeling me as a creationist. I'm not. I'm also not an evolutionist. I can't throw either theory out of my discussion because neither have need proven. Science isn't a courtroom. It's not fact until disproven, it's a theory until proven. Neither is proven. Neither is disproved.

I'll leave it at that. A couple idiots joined the conversation that only choose to troll and cause fights. I won't get dragged into it. I really love this kind of topic because it really gets the minds working. Unfortunately participants take it to an emotional/personal level. That in it self is unscientific. If you'd like to converse more with me on the subject, feel free to PM me


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## GregD (Oct 24, 2009)

Another perspective on the creationism vs. evolution debate.


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## dakremer (Dec 8, 2009)

One more thing. Jmos, if you understood the science of chiropractic and the anatomy and physiology of humans you might have a better understanding of what we do, instead of just taking some allopath's word on it. People who discredit chiropractors because of hearsay are just showing how truly uneducated they are on the subject - the majority (including MD's, allopaths, laymen, etc,etc) have no clue what we do. Knowing what i know, I can't wait to be a chiropractor. I can't wait to help people live healthier lives. I hope u feel the same way about whatever you do.


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## jmos (Nov 30, 2011)

Here are just two experiments that have shown spontaneous evolution in the laboratory. It's been observed many times. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._coli_long-term_evolution_experiment http://www.genetics.org/content/161/1/33

Again, I ask for any reference showing valid scientific proof of ID.

And, ID has been ruled religion in the courtroom. The judge was a Republican appointed by W. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitzmiller_v._Dover_Area_School_District

Good luck with you career in Chiropractic. No sarcasm, I hope it works out well for you.


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## reedwood (Jan 27, 2011)

GregD: "reedwood - what are you talking about? I see nothing inappropriate in DVK's posts on this thread."

What don't you understand about my comment? He starts off by saying, "I think creationism is stupid".

He's a muzlim trying to cause trouble amonst Christians and Atheists. And you are his little puppet.

Do I have to copy and paste 12 long winded posts explaining how inappriate it is to diss 80% of the people who are probably Christians on this WOODWORKING site?

You are supporting a Muzlim who wants to convert you to his religion - dumbass.

Please don't respond - I really don't give a damn what you think.

What a waste of time. I quit.


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

if you understood the science of chiropractic and the anatomy and physiology of humans you might have a better understanding of what we do

Rip people off with a bogus medical scientific theory's? I'll leave my healthcare to real MD's..with medical degrees…that are smart enough to realize Creationism and ID are just religious fables..some "scientist" hahahahahaha Ya I'll PM ya if I want an irrational opinion from a pseudo intellectual pretending to be a scientist…there it is again..hahahaha…there's a guy on Woodweb that is studying to treat people with electric shocks..maybe I will ask him what his opinions are on this subject…

A couple idiots joined the conversation that only choose to troll and cause fights.
You would know being experienced in doing that yourself, Mr. Scientist..


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## dakremer (Dec 8, 2009)

I'm glad your references include 2 Wikipedia articles…..


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## GregD (Oct 24, 2009)

Mark - I didn't mean to get you angry, I just didn't understand what you are responding to. Sadly, I still don't. When I was a devout, Catholic-school educated Catholic, I also thought Creationism was not very sensible, so I'm a bit puzzled by the idea that criticizing Creationism is insulting to Christians in general. Creationism asserts a literal interpretation of the creation story in the Bible, which many (most?) Christian institutions and individuals don't believe. And - although you don't care what I think - I don't care at all how some people choose to interpret Genesis or any other religious text as a part of their theology. But at least some proponents of Creationism and ID have tried to push this religious belief as scientific theory, and I'm willing to waste my time arguing against that.

I can't comment on DVK's motives or religion. He is just an avatar on the Internet to me…


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## jmos (Nov 30, 2011)

Ok, I thought maybe the summarized Wiki article would be easier to digest, but if you like, you can look here http://myxo.css.msu.edu/ecoli/ for more on evolution and here http://www.pamd.uscourts.gov/kitzmiller/kitzmiller_342.pdf to read the full ruling in Kitzmiller v Dover Are School District

I'm still waiting for any references from you supporting your claim of evidence for ID, or for the effectiveness of chiropractic either.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

have any of you noticed someone hasn't posted on this thread for awhile, namely the OP? Start a fight, and sneak out the back door….


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

They see me trollin ….. Nothin less nothin more fellas


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## BobM001 (Jan 8, 2012)

"I heard Allah and Buddah, were singing at the Savior's feast.

And up in the sky, an Arabian Rabbi, fed Quaker Oats to a priest.

Pretty good, not bad, I can't complain.

But actually, all them Gods are just about the same."- John Prine


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Last scene from "Ferris bueller's day off:

"You guys still here? The movie is over, go home…...go home."

as he walks away…..


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

Who is James Randi and why do I care? Believers are without reason, they encourage fanatics (do the fanatics have reason? I digress…), are sheep and essentially wish to be victimized. Hmmmm…. Okay. So what? So Randi is pro-victimization of these special people. Quite the humanist.

Seek mental help if you believe without proof? What is trust, a gateway drug? Hope, too?


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## IrreverentJack (Aug 13, 2010)

Smitty- For years some "special people" have been trying to force their version of reality on the public by conflating an origin myth with science. Everyone has a right to believe it in creationism/ID, a flat earth, leprechauns, Santa, Bigfoot, Nessie and the Cool-Pop Tree. However, when these people try to present myths and falsehoods as facts and science they should be called on it and ridiculed. The victims are public school students that have myths presented as facts in science class and taxpayers that pay for this.

*James Randi* is an elderly magician and famous skeptic. For years he has offered a million dollar prize to anyone that can demonstrate/prove *any* supernatural occurrence. He still has the million. -Jack


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

There's a COOL-POP TREE? OMG!


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Wow, beyond politics into this. Can anyone think of a more divisive topic? If so, I suppose you should start a thread about it. I have definite opinions on creationism, intelligent design, string theory, and the best brand of peanut butter. Rightfully, however, I don't expect anyone to give one $hit about it in an unrelated internet forum.
.
I might even agree with you, DKV, but c'mon man; this is getting a bit old, no?


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Lol, Brad. Just saying:
.


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

I have definite opinions on creationism, intelligent design, string theory, and the best brand of peanut butter.

I'm a JIF natural kinda guy myself….


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## dust4tears (Jul 8, 2012)

POOOOOOOOP~~~~~ That was the sound my brain cell just made~~~~~~


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Don't look now people, but the OP is long gone. Might even be laughing at all the idiots still fighting here. Peanut butter? Any relation to that brown stuff in the old green C ration cans. We used to call them pen#s butter.

weird trick to pull on people; have a little peanut butter handy, but hidden. Go into the public crapper, then come back out, licking the peanut butter off your fingertips. "Hey, they're outta TP here!"

Just can't believe this thread is still alive…..


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## RibsBrisket4me (Jul 17, 2011)

All I believe is….DKV is the biggest TOOL on this woodworking forum…I believe he should be the main moderator of the TOOL forum.


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)




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