# Combination square, precision square, or T square??



## BenI

My birthday is coming up soon and I'm narrowing down what I want to ask for, one of which is a better square. For awhile I've been using a cheap plastic combination square (blade is aluminum of course) but I'd really like to upgrade. I've been looking at combination squares but wouldn't mind having a Woodpecker square but not sure which out of the 3 is the best option for me. I'm a casual woodworker that does projects when I have the time and money.

I've been looking at 4 different possibilities:

Woodriver 12" Combination Square
http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2083942/38104/WoodRiver-12-Combination-Square.aspx

Starrett 12" Combination Square
http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2000437/762/STARRETT-12-Combination-Square.aspx

Woodpeckers Precision Square
http://www.woodpeck.com/1281.html

Woodpeckers Precision T Square
http://www.woodpeck.com/tsquare.html

All except the Woodriver square are pricey and not sure I really need that expensive of one but I don't mind paying for quality either. More so, I don't really know which would be the most useful for my needs. I'm thinking either the combination square or the precision square but I'm somewhat guessing.

Thanks so much in advance for the help and advice everyone.


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## cutworm

Any would be great. I'm not sure you could see any difference between #1 and #2 except price. If I got to pick I would go with door #3. But would be happy with any.


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## bobasaurus

Large combo squares tend to get less and less accurate as they wear… I think I would go for the woodpeckers square. I'm tempted to get one of these:

http://www.woodcraft.com/category/2084361/woodpeckers-onetime-tool-program.aspx?refcode=13IN08RL&utm_source=bm23&utm_medium=email&utm_term=Image+-+One-Time+Tool+640+and+850+Sqaures+-+Order+Now&utm_content=HTC+Tool+Table+OTT+8-29&utm_campaign=08%2F29%2F2013

Just got an email about them this morning. They don't ship until 2014 though, so I'll have to be prepared to wait.


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## BenI

*cutworm* That's kind of how I saw the two combo squares, especially since the price difference is $80. I'm just trying to decide if it's more useful to have a combo square or a 'regular' one but as *Bob* points out, combo squares can become less accurate over time.

I've also gotten emails and seen postings but I often use bigger width stock so looking for a bigger square, but I'll look into those Woodpecker ones too. They do look really nice haha.

As fair as purpose goes, is there really much difference between a combo square and a regular one besides being able to make 45s?


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## NiteWalker

Go for the starrett, but don't get it from woodcraft.
Several other online retailers have it cheaper. Mcfeely's and hartville tool both have the same model for under $90 shipped.

My 12" starrett combo square is my most used layout tool in the shop; it has tons of uses, and it holds it's accuracy so long as it's not abused.


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## DKV

Beni, you've done some nice projects. I would go with the Woodriver. It also gives a 45. Starrett not required…unless your parents are rich.


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## Wdwerker

I have a Starrett , an old one and it is nice but I also have 3 different squares from Products Engineering. I buy cosmetic seconds from Harry Epsiein. The accuracy is fine but there may be a paint or polishing flaw.
http://store.harryepstein.com/c/ProductsEngineering.html
I have one 24" Starrett blade and 2 from Products Enginerring ! 
Compared them sided to side with a 20x jewelers loupe, no discernible difference. I am quite demanding in my accuracy . 40+ years of woodworking experience.


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## NiteWalker

I have a couple of pec double squares; they work great but don't slide nearly as smooth as the starrett.

It's about preference. You don't need rich parents either; just a passion for your hobby.

FWIW, I'm pretty sure PEC makes the wr combo square. I'd go for the seconds from harry epstein.


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## BBF

The Starrett is what is in my tool box but then I got that when I first started as a toolmaker 35 years ago. Starrett, Brown and Sharp, or Mitutoyo You will pay for them BUT they ARE worth it.


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## Loren

I'm not a fan of expensive new squares for woodworking,
but I will confess that the metric woodpecker thing is
something I've thought about springing for.

These are all very useful:

http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=32598&cat=1,42936

http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=44279&cat=1,42936

http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=44836&cat=1,42936,50298&ap=1


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## DKV

The two I use the most.


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## LRR

+1 for Epstein. Really nice animation on the website. Great prices and service. instead of a PEC, I ended up with a Mitutoyo comb. square with a small rub spot on the blade. I also got an 18" blade and couple of small double squares (a 4 inch and a 6 inch) - one to keep and one to give to my son. I believe that with shipping the cost was about $80.00. The try squares that Bobasaurus mentioned looked nice and I have heard great things about the Incra try square that DKV uses. The Woodpecker squares are machined aluminum and I am not certain what the Incra is made of. DKV do you know? Starrett and others are steel, which I guess matters if square meets concrete floor. Anyway, the try squares can then become your reference square that you check others against. I guess that is why the Starrett and Bridge City ones are so popular and costly. Wow, is this rambling or what. It must be late.


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## NiteWalker

With the bridge city, you're paying more for the name and prestige of owning one, though their kerf maker is a really nifty gadget. With starrett, you're paying for accuracy and reliability.

I've had one of those incra guaranteed squares on my wishlist for a while, but my 4 and 6" pec double square check out as square, so I use those in instances where the incra would be used.

@Loren: PEC makes those lee valley double squares. I love LV as a company, but some cash can be saved going to epstein, on ebay or PEC direct.


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## Woodbum

Starrett 12" for a combination square, Woodpeckers or Incra for a fixed 90 degree square and Woodpeckers again for any number of different types of specialty squares. Their machined aluminum stuff is outstanding. You will not go wrong with any Starrett, Woodpeckers or Incra layout tool. All #1 in accuracy. A cheaper alternative is the I gauge line. I have a 4" I gauge double square that I carry in an apron, and leave my 4" Starrett double on the bench. I only can recommend what I own and know to be the quality that I speak of. That being said, I still drool over Bridge City tools, and wish I could afford their top of the line tools.


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## waho6o9

Get the Starrett 12" for your Birthday Ben and enjoy the lifetime of accuracy.










I just purchased this 6" double square shipped to me for 20.00 from:
http://store.harryepstein.com/c/ProductsEngineering.html
Great value here that you might want to consider, good luck on your choice.

Thanks for the friendly advice Wdwerker!


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## BigMig

I own a 12" starrett, a 12" Craftsman and a 4" Starrett double square . While recently making a dovetailed stepstool, I used the 4: double square more than teh others.

Look at the projects you expect to be building; a 12" square might be too large. I bough the 4" square about 8 months ago and use it more than the others combined.


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## BenI

Lots of good advice and suggestions, thank you for the quick replies!

Correct me if I'm wrong but the squares on Harry Epstein site are Products Engineering brand or Starrett 'rejects' with cosmetic flaws?


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## DKV

Beni, reread bigmig's post. Probably the best advice. Do not get fixated on Starrett.


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## BenI

That's the problem I keep coming back to.. I'm afraid I'll get a Starrett, be thrilled at first and then have buyers remorse soon after. Similar situation with getting a Woodpecker product too. At least for now, I'm leaning towards the Woodriver one since I'd imagine for my uses it will do just fine and is more economical.


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## LRR

I keep my 4 inch double square in my apron. It is always there and is the most used. As to Epstein, the squares list as having slight blemishes in finish. They list as PEC squares, but as I said I got a Mitutoyo 12 in combination square instead. The other items were PEC. They do not list Starrett. Here is the site : http://www.harryepstein.com/ Not affiliated in any way - just a satisfied customer.

The one thing about the WoodRiver square that I can see from the reviews is that the head is not hardened steel. It will wear out more quickly than one with a hardened steel head from what I have been told.

Good luck.


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## TerryDowning

I agonized over the same thing, (Birthday also) finally decided on the Starrett and don't regret it one bit. It's definitely a quality tool (any tool user can appreciate the feel, fit, finish and precision of this instrument) and knowing how much it costs definitely helps me to be more respectful of it to make sure it is cared for properly.

You will not regret having a starrett square.


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## ssnvet

I have a Starret combo square (cost me $90 for just the square) and at work we use a clone from Grizzly that looks just like the Woodriver you linked, and was purchased on sale with the center marker and angle gage for $25.

Here's the Grizzly....

I did a lot of research at the time and concluded that all the nicer knock offs were coming from the same manufacturer, who specializes in photo-etched rules… with deaper than normal etching.

In all honesty, I would NOT buy the Starret again.

Though the Starett has deeper and more crisp mechanically engraved lines on the rule, the Grizzly is 95% of the tool a roughly ~15% of the price.


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## mummykicks

I went through this exercise a while ago setting up my shop. At the end of the day I bought the incra 12" and protractor. I also got an $8 irwin 6" combo square at HD which measured out .003" over 6" out of square (measured against a starret machinist square), which is more than adequate for woodworking. Note that the incra's also work very well as squares. All of this cost less than a single starret combo square and are much easier and faster, and IMO more accurate marking tools because the pencil lead is captive and there is no adjustment and having to line things up. Plop it down, find the right hole/slot, and make your line.

Buy the 12" incra rule for $27 (pictured in DKV's post) and use it a couple of times and you'll never want to use a combo square to mark anything ever again, at least I never do.

If you really NEED a .001" accurate square then Incra in DKV's post is hard to beat. I don't work for INCRA even though it might sound that way, I just really love tools that make my life easier and work like they should, which they do.


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## brtech

I have a 12" starret I bought used on ebay for $40 with both the regular and the protractor heads. I have the 640 Woodpecker's square, and a Veritas 4" double square.

I use all three of them quite a bit. The double square is always in my pocket, and I'll reach for the 640 square if I need something a bit bigger than the double square, but the Starret does everything, and it's a joy to use. If I had to have only one, it would definitely be the 12" Starret.

I'd suggest you also need a framing square for larger panels.


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## BenI

For my needs, I'm fairly certain that the accuracy of the Woodriver combo square will do just fine and I can get another tool with the money I save.

The Incra 12" rule does look nice though so I might look into getting that or even both.


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## NiteWalker

"That's the problem I keep coming back to.. I'm afraid I'll get a Starrett, be thrilled at first and then have buyers remorse soon after."

I thought the same thing. Also keep in mind I bought the hardened steel head version ($105 on amazon) instead of the cast iron head (wanted to treat myself). After using it this past year, not a hint of buyer's remorse. Every time I have to adjust the ruler to a different position, how smoothy it slides and how easily the knurled knob is to loosen and tighten, solidify my satisfaction with the tool.

Make no mistake, it's a luxury tool, but one I wouldn't be without.

A big part of this hobby (for me) is buying and using tools. If I only bought what would get me by, I'd not be a very happy woodworker. YMMV.


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## BenI

Looking at the Starrett earlier this morning I saw they have two versions, cast iron or forged steel and each with the finish option for the blade. What's the main difference (besides cost) between cast iron and forged steel? weight?


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## MrFid

Can't go wrong with Starrett, but the WoodRiver is nice too. I have the Starrett, and it's great. WoodRiv is making some good stuff too these days, and has gotten good reviews.


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## NiteWalker

The hardened steel version's head is a lot harder and will withstand dings and gouges that could otherwise damage cast iron. I *think* it might be a bit lighter. Also, the finish is shiny on the steel version head, matte on the cast iron version. Either will work fine for shop use, I just chose the steel because at the time it wasn't much more than the cast iron version.

As for the rulers, definitely go for the satin chrome. No glare when light hits it, which can make the scale hard to read on the regular polished version.


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## paxorion

BenI, I recently went through the same dilemma of WoodRiver or Starrett. As a hobbyist myself who barely finds time to work on his projects, I've certainly been happy with the WoodRiver (for now?). I got it during Woodcraft's 85th anniversary sale for ~$27 after tax. From the research I was able to do, the WoodRiver is made by PEC, who also makes the Lee Valley double square ($36.50) I got at the same time (both as birthday presents for myself) earlier this month. One of my main sources of review was a Fine Woodworking article from issue 229, where PEC made squares ranked high as value purchases. Both have been great additions to my tool collection, for less than the lowest Starrett price I could find.


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## BenI

Thanks again everyone for your responses, suggestions and advice with this.

Everyone has their opinion on which is best so I've decided to just try them out and see which I prefer the most. I'm planning on going to Woodcraft Sunday and testing out the Woodriver, Incra, and Starrett squares and see which one(s) I like the feel and fit of best and decide from there.


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## MrRon

The Starrett will last a lifetime. I use mine for accurate layout on metals and to check the squareness of cheaper comb squares. For woodworking, I use a Stanley comb square that checks out pretty good against the Starrett. I don't like to use a tool as precision as the Starrett in a woodworking environment with all the dust. Tools used in woodworking can be "tossed" around on cluttered benches and accidentally dropped. That's why I use a cheap square. I "toss" my tools into a tool box when working in sites away from my shop. My Starrett stays in the shop safely housed in a wooden box and kept oiled.


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## Loren

I find a 12" combination square awkward to handle
most of the time. That's why I use the little 4" squares
a lot. They also go in a pocket easier.

Realize that a square with a sliding rule is useful as
a depth gauge. I use them for this a lot, sticking
the end in a mortise for example. A long blade 
sticking out the other end when I'm measuring
a 1.25" deep hole just gets in the way.


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## BenI

First, I'd like to again thank everyone for their advice and suggestions.

Second, Sunday I went to Woodcraft and compared the Incra T rule, and the Woodriver and Starrett squares. While the Incra rule would be handy, it's not really the best for my needs. The Woodriver and Starrett were relatively similar, both metal heads and steel blades, with scribes, etc. The Starrett obviously had a better fit and finish quality to it which at the time I decided the Woodriver was perfectly adequate and much cheaper (although I wasn't planning on getting it there anyway).

So I walked out with the Woodriver square thinking I made the right choice for my needs and saved some money. The next day, I went to try it out, check it for square and look at it a little closer and it was almost 1/8" out of square which seems like quite a lot. Plus the locking screw would loosen itself very easily and quickly making the blade able to slide.

So after all that, I'm going to return the Woodriver one and I have already ordered a Starrett off Amazon, which I know I'll be happy with.


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## DKV

Ben, glad you made a decision and hope you're happy. I am also glad you did not "pull the trigger".


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## jamesicus

Congratulations on buying a Starrett combination square!

I personally like the fine finish and smooth function of Starrett tools. I also find the etched graduation lines and numbers on Starrett measuring tools to be very easy to read - another feature that bespeaks quality and excellent design.










As you can see by my toolbox drawer I am a Starrett fan:

No. 492 Bevel Protractor - 12" 4R rule (circa. mid 1950s)
No. 492 Bevel Protractor - Center Head (circa. mid 1950s)
No. 451 36" folding steel rule (circa. mid 1920s)
No. 11H 6" Satin Chrome Combination Square (circa. mid 1970s)
No. 73/79/83 Yankee Inside/Outside Calipers - Dividers (circa. late 1930s)
No. 493 Protractor with Depth gauge (circa. late 1920s)
No. 425 5" pocket slide caliper (circa. mid 1930s)
No. 70 Scribe (circa. mid 1920s)
No. 20 6" Master precision square (circa. mid 1930s)

I have found the above tools especially useful in laying out and checking precisely cut dovetail and mortise & tenon joints.

A caveat for those buying any used square from an unknown source (including e-bay): the main concern is whether they were dropped or otherwise abused during their former life thus possibly rendering them out of true square. All used squares should be carefully checked using a Starrett No. 20 Master Precision square (for instance) to be sure they are "spot-on".

James


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## BenI

Just in case anyone happens to look back at this for whatever reason..

My Starrett 12" combination square just arrived today from Amazon and it's great. I haven't actually tried it out yet, but just from the feel and fit and finish of it, I know that I made a good decision in the end. Can't wait to use it on the project I'm already working on.


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## NiteWalker

Congrats on your new tool!


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## Woodbum

Welcome to the Starrett owners club. Now you will be checking out their new on line catalog for new goodies. Look at the double sqaure.. 6" and 4". I also have a 36" Starrett steel straight edge that I use for setups and other flatness gauging. It is outstanding too. But I spread my purchases out over a couple/three years and did not buy it all at once. It was too heavy a hit all at once. But now I have the tools, I use the s**t out of them and am convinced they will last for the rest of my life, and that of whomever is the lucky recipient of them when I check out.
Nice to treat yourself once in a while, you deserve it! I have convinced myself that I certainly do.


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## NiteWalker

I'd love to have the 4 and 6" starrett double squares, but they only have the shiny rulers for those. :-(
Satin chrome and I'd have both.


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## Dal300

blump.


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