# Micro bevels--continuing the conversation



## CharlesA (Jun 24, 2013)

When I got my Veritas MK II honing guide, I read the instructions on how to put on a micro bevel. If you buy Veritas chisels, they come complete with the micro bevel. As I understand it, the main advantage is that the micro bevel is the sharpening bevel, so if you keep it sharp, one only has to hone a very small edge and that is much easier to keep up than the entire primary bevel. Makes sense.

Then I read Paul Sellers impassioned piece on why micro bevels are dumb. But as I read it, one part doesn't make any sense to me. If the micro bevel is a larger angle, then it seems to me that edge has comparatively more metal than the primary bevel, so it is not weaker, but stronger. Am I making sense? If Sellers is correct on angle, then the actual angle at the end doesn't make that much difference, it is really a question of whether or not the entire edge is at the same angle, or if the edge tip is a sharper angle.

Since I get confused easily, my planes now all have micro bevels and my chisels don't (I changed my mind after doing the planes, in case you're wondering), but now I think maybe the micros do make sense.


----------



## Tim457 (Jan 11, 2013)

I think the micro bevels came about because it's easier to learn to get a very sharp edge that way with a honing guide than practicing the old school method Paul shows that as far as I can tell is how most of the old timers did it. I'm still trying to practice the method Paul shows, but man I can get a better edge faster right now with a honing guide. I just don't have enough time for consistent practice. Once you've got it down though his method is probably more efficient.

I'm not real good at pictures but if you consider a convex bevel that has 30 degrees right at the end and then lowers to something like 25 compared to a blade with a 25 degree bevel all the way except for a 30 degree micro bevel, the convex bevel has slightly more metal along the bevel.

Of course neither needs to be that dramatic, it's less difference in degrees than that, but it shows the concept.


----------



## JJohnston (May 22, 2009)

No, you're right. I don't know why Paul Sellers doesn't care for them, but he tends not to like jigs and modern contrivances in general.

I, for one, use the same Veritas honing guide you just reviewed, and I like it. I use the secondary bevel feature (maybe if you don't call them "micro" they'll be stronger) on everything.


----------



## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

I think the premise is simplicity. I'm an advocate for what ever works best for you, but Seller's point it this. You can spend $70 on a jig, or learn free hand. Learn free hand and suddenly its quicker, and you don't need the $70 jig. Being its quicker your more likely to resharpen sooner. Sharp tools are happy tools.

The idea of a micro bevel is good at first, but the bevel grows. Soon you've got to regrind (whatever that means to you) or your micro bevel is your primary bevel. So spend time regrinding, or free hand and get back to work.

Then you can spend time flattening your stones, or you can just sharpen and get back to work.

My suggestion has always been to hollow grind to learn freehand. Hollow grinding make freehanding easier, and by the time the hollow grind is gone, you don't need it any more.


----------



## woodchuckerNJ (Dec 4, 2013)

My opinion, a micro bevel offers a firmer edge.
*BUT *I am not using a micro on my chisels any longer. I have put a slight hollow ground on the chisels.
I also strop like crazy. many times I don't have to sharpen, just re-strop. I have found stropping the is the biggest key to a sharp edge.

On my planes I will sometims use a micro bevel, but think of this, a micro bevel on a bevel down plane doesn't change the irons angle. It does on a bevel up. I am only concerned with sharp, not how I get there. The sharper it is the better it is. As long as you don't weaken the edge by putting a very shallow angle on the iron, all should be good, but different degrees.


----------



## shampeon (Jun 3, 2012)

A micro bevel has more material behind the edge than a straight or concave (hollow-grind) bevel, but a convex bevel has even more, and is easier to free-hand sharpen to maintain the same angle.









Edit to add in concave or hollow-ground bevel.


----------



## knockknock (Jun 13, 2012)

*Don W said: *The idea of a micro bevel is good at first, but the bevel grows. Soon you've got to regrind (whatever that means to you) or your micro bevel is your primary bevel.

Ding Ding Ding

That is why I don't use micro bevels, I don't have a machine to regrind the bevel. I removed the factory micro bevel by hand (reground with a jig) on 2 pmv11 blades. It was not my idea of fun.


----------



## Tim457 (Jan 11, 2013)

Thanks Ian, that was the picture I was trying to describe. As they say, a picture is better.


----------



## jdh122 (Sep 8, 2010)

I have the same Veritas guide and have been using micro-bevels on everything. I've recently started trying to freehand sharpen chisels and plan irons. I have been doing more work with axes, knives, gouges, drawknives and an adze, all tools that can basically only be freehand sharpened, and have been impressing myself with the freehand results, and decided to try on straight blades too. It immediately becomes clear why the microbevel is not recommended with freehand sharpening. I ground them off on a plane iron or two and found the freehand sharpening worked quite well. I'm not quite confident enough in my freehanding to get rid of all the microbevels yet…


----------



## CharlesA (Jun 24, 2013)

that pic illustrates why I didn't understand the notion that micro-bevles are "weak." I get why some don't like it. Interesting to me that Lee Valley/Veritas, one of the biggies in the chisel/plane/sharpening world, are believers in micro-bevels.


----------



## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

Interesting to me that Lee Valley/Veritas, one of the biggies in the chisel/plane/sharpening world, are believers in micro-bevels.

Really? You're in business to sell tools, and you can sell honing jigs, flattening stones, sets of stones, and a bunch of other Paraphernalia, or you can say hey, just free hand. I think their opinions might be slightly skewed.


----------



## CharlesA (Jun 24, 2013)

They sell their highly regarded chisels, for example, with a micro-bevel as well-I was referring to that as much as the jigs.


----------



## HarveyDunn (Aug 29, 2013)

What Charles said.

I'm currently reading a book by renowned carver/instructor Chris Pye. His recommendation for carving tools? Micro-bevels.


----------



## BillWhite (Jul 23, 2007)

Sharpening is kinda like sour mash. Whatever work for you is the way to go.
I use the micros on plane irons, and straight bevels on my cast steel chisels.
I use the Makita horizontal water grinder as well as a high speed 7" grinder. After studying some sites, I wonder how I ever get anything sharp. I guess that the leather strops and green compound save me from all the errors. 
Bill


----------



## shampeon (Jun 3, 2012)

I agree with Bill. We're getting close to reigniting a holy war, so to maybe try to head it off, it's important to note why Paul Sellers says you shouldn't do a micro bevel. It's because it's easier to freehand a convex bevel, so you spend less time sharpening and more time working.

Any of the bevels will produce a sharp edge, so choose one way to do it among the bazillion ways, and let the noise of the debate fade away.


----------



## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

yea, this probably should be classified under the "religion" heading.


----------



## CharlesA (Jun 24, 2013)

Not interested in a holy war, just trying to understand the issue better, particularly the one statement about it being "weak" that didn't make sense to me.


----------



## JGM0658 (Aug 16, 2011)

I think there is some confusion here. A micro bevel is one where only a very small part of the front of the blade is sharpened at a 1/2º to 1º greater inclination to create the micro bevel, not 15º. If we follow the definition of sharpness as that of two flat planes meeting at an angle then it would follow that a concave or a convex surface would be less sharp or have less support behind the edge. IN practice I have used and seen all 3 kind and I cannot say any one is better than the other, with the possible exception that the convex chisel is harder to control when doing paring.


----------



## CharlesA (Jun 24, 2013)

Jorge, the micro bevel on the Mk II honing guide is 5 degrees. I noticed that 15 degree one on the pic.


----------



## shampeon (Jun 3, 2012)

The micro bevel can be whatever angle you want, I made it significantly different in the diagram so it was obvious.

A 30 degree micro bevel on a 29 degree primary bevel-a 1 degree inclination-has the same effective cutting angle as a 30 degree micro bevel on a 15 degree primary bevel. The former is just harder to re-establish without a jig.


----------



## BubbaIBA (Nov 23, 2011)

Funny this thread came up. I had a some free time a couple of days ago and decided to run a little unscientific test of sharpening Plane irons, I almost always sharpen chisels free hand with a convex bevel but plane irons I tend to use either the Tormek which hollow grinds or an Eclipse jig. Both the Tormek and Eclipse sharpened irons normally will have a micro bevel.

I had three identical planes with Hock O1 irons (yes I know I have too many tools), one I free hand sharpened, one I used the Tormek with the 3000 grit water stone for the micro bevel, and the last one was sharpened using the Eclipse jig. The free hand iron and the Eclipse iron were stropped. Once the irons were back in the planes and adjusted I edge planned Sapele, Red Oak, Sycamore, Maple, and Cherry and then I face planed the Sapele. The first couple of passes edge planning the Sapele I thought maybe the Tormek sharpened iron was a little sharper, after that I could not feel nor see any difference when edge planning any of the other wood.

When I went to face plane the Sapele there was a big difference, major tear out with the Tormek iron and the Eclipse iron. The free hand sharpened iron planned the Sapele smooth as a baby's butt with no tear out. The last thing I did was look at the irons with a 20X lupe, both the Tormek and the Eclipse iron had fractured, the free hand iron looked almost as good as it looked fresh off the stones. YMMV.


----------



## CharlesA (Jun 24, 2013)

Bubba,

do you attribute that to the micro bevel or something else?


----------



## BubbaIBA (Nov 23, 2011)

CharlesA,

It could be just an outlier, remember this was just one test but if I had to guess I would guess the free hand edge was a little less acute than the others (the Tormek and Eclipse were adjusted to 30 degree primary and a couple more for the micro bevel) and of course because it was slightly convex there was more metal backing the edge even with the same angle.

Bottom line: most of my plane irons will be free hand sharpened going forward.


----------



## CharlesA (Jun 24, 2013)

Something you just said, Bubba, clicked,for me. I read Sellers instructions on how to freehand sharpen with a convex bevel, but I realize now that he was comparing the convex bevel to the "weaker" micro bevel; he was not comparing a flat single bevel to micro bevel. I'm slow sometimes.


----------



## JGM0658 (Aug 16, 2011)

has the same effective cutting angle as a 30 degree micro bevel on a 15 degree primary bevel.

This is true, but a 30º bevel on a 29º primary bevel has more support behind it and should be less prone to chipping.


----------

