# Choosing a hardwood floor finish: Looking for help



## DanLyke

We're in escrow on a house here in Northern California, a cute little 1947 bungalow and you people who live in real estate markets with sane prices can snicker right now, just to get it out of your system.

The original floors are hardwood, and they seem to be in decent shape, with half of them covered by carpet. So in the week between when we get the house and when we move in, we were hoping to re-sand them and re-finish them. Sanding seems to be a matter of renting a stand-up orbital (even though it's slower, I've read too many reports of deep gouging with a drum sander in inexperienced hands) and just sweating out the time. The finished area of the house is 768 square feet minus the kitchen and bathroom, so probably 500-600. And wherever possible, as we spruce this thing up, we're trying to do the "pay more up-front so that we don't have to worry about it for a long time" thing.

Refinishing, on the other hand, doesn't seem so cut and dried. It seems that we've got four options:


Oil based polyurethane - slightly yellow cast, spontaneous combustion danger in dealing with wet tools or partially dried scrapings or sawdust, requires a day or so in between coats, extra care in dealing with fumes (although we'll already have the windows open and activated carbon respirators).
Concoctions based on Tung Oil and wax - highly spoken of, everybody says its gorgeous, but even though it looks better than the other options it'll probably require more maintenance.
Water based polyurethane - allegedly clear, modern formulations are harder than oil based, a few hours in between coats, likely less dangerous fumes, which will be nice given that we'll want to keep the place somewhat warm in order to make it cure better (we'll still be out of the house in between coats), requires an extra light sanding pass after the first coat because it'll raise the grain a little bit.
Some sort of catalyzed cross between polyester resin or epoxy and water based polyurethane - information is hard to come by.

I'm leaning towards the water based polyurethane, although that last option is also fairly appealing, but…

How the heck do I choose between brands? I see Minwax and Varathane and who knows what else, and they're all about the same price (between $40-60/gallon, we'll probably need 4 gallons for 3 coats, but that price is nothing compared to the labor of doing it in the first place, let alone doing it in a few years once we're all moved in), and the only differences I can see are ad copy which don't tell why any particular brand is different.

And I see lots of mentions of the catalyzed finishes, but no actual brand names or sources.

Anyone got experience with this? Brands to get? Brands to avoid? Reasons to choose one over the other?

Do I just go down to the Sherwin-Williams store and ask them?

If it helps anyone recommend a local vendor, we're moving to Petaluma, California. And if anyone knows a wood floor refinisher who'll work on that kind of limited schedule, we're also willing to entertain bids for parts of this process…


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## Thuan

Home Depot sell Waterborne Poly by Parks Pro. You don't hear much about it because they do well enough with the pro's, this means you get a quality product without the advertising price built in. It actually has a higher Solid count suspended in the solution than other brands. The Vendor recommends the Waterborne becuase it dries fasters, so you can put 6 coats on a day. whereas the oil takes days and days. The Waterbourne is also harder when dried. He recommened 5-6 coats for water, 3 coats for Oil.


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## DanLyke

Argh. This is part of the problem: So that's a brand currently owned by Zinsser, which is under the same parent company as DAP and Rust-Oleum. All of which also have their own branded water based polyurethanes.

It is interesting that Parks Pro seems to be a very high solids to solvent ratio, and to read that I should go for 6 coats, as I've been reading 3 elsewhere.

(Don't mind doing extra coats, I just want to get it right from the get-go.)


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## Thuan

I was trained by the Parks Vendors many years ago before they were purchused by Zinsser, They were pushing me to sell their products I supposed. But three coats is good for cabinets, but if you are putting this on the floor, you'd want extra protection on it. It's easier to do it initialy then having scuff the old floor with 220 grit to apply a fresh couple coats to it some years down the road. (read the instructions on the back, things can change.)

Which made me remember the trainer telling me (this is seven years ago) that Parks was developing a new flooring finish with aluminum Oxide in it for excellent abrasion resistance. So I looked up their web site to see if it ever came out on the market and wow! Nano Shield

Pergo and Bruce wood floor complanies put the same stuff as sand paper abrasive between their coats of finish to make it more abrasive resistant. That's why they have that 25 years wear warranty on it (rub a dime on a Pergo brand laminate floor and the ridges on the dime will wear off). I guess Parks delveoped a way to get aluminum oxide in their Poly to apply consistantly. Anyway, having worked for retail forever, large company buys smaller companies, but the formulas and products are mades at different plants and under different systems. So It's not all the same stuff with different lables on it. Brand recognition, consistancy and trust is very imortant to these larger Mother companies.


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## toddc

I have done some floors in the past with my business and the first thing I recommend to anyone now is to hire it out. For the people that don't want to listen to me I tell them this, "OK, so if you are going to do it yourself keep this in mind - it is a lot of hard work, but don't get divorced over it." They always think it is a joke until they get half way through the project. At this point, anyone reading this is thinking it's funny, I can assure you I am serious.

The businesses that specialize in it get it done so much faster and the finish is typically a catalyzed formula. They come in with a crew and knock out the sanding. Is it rocket science? No. It is just really hard work for a longer period of time than you think.

You have to use a wax stripper on the floor first otherwise you will merely grind wax residue into the wood. I have seen more than one floor release its' homeowner finish job because of this. Here is something priceless: the look on somebody's face when you tell them why the finish is releasing and that it needs to be done again. Yeah - priceless.

I have applied the oil based MinWax finish, the Varathane, and the Parks Pro. I like the Varathane the best. They all have stood the test of time but it was an application issue. You did correctly identify the differences between the finishes. It depends on the look you want. I like the light color that the waterbase finish provides, but the oil base has a rich warmth to it. The oil base took 24 hrs between coats and They all did nice coverage in 3 coats.

You really have to have a good application plan and never stop moving. It goes on best with a squeegee on a pole. Sand with a drywall pole sander in between coats and a damp rag to grab up the dust. Remember this: it is not a fine furniture finish. You cannot get it that good and it is unreasonable to think that you can. Use a shop vac to suck everything out of the corners and cracks that you can.

When you are done a quarter round typically has to be laid against the base to cover the final bit that the sander did not get as good. The other option is to remove the base trim entirely prior to finishing. I really recommend this if possible because you get new unscarred trim in the end. As a remodeler I am usually tearing the trim out for the job anyway.

*Here is a big secret to a wood floor finish.* Everybody lets the finish wear completely down to the wood in front of the entry door and concentrated traffic areas. Do not let it wear out this far! When the finish is showing wear clean it with TSP and go over the floor with a pole sander again, then apply a coat or two of finish as needed. How often do you have to do this? Most people seem to get 5-7 years before they hit this point, but you do not have to sand it all the way down to bare wood again. *Here is something very important: You cannot do this if you use wax on the floor.* Usually a damp mop is all that is needed to clean the floor.


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## toddc

So I forgot to add this.

In the end I found that I made more money, it got done faster, and it was easier on my body to sub it out.


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## toddc

Thuan is right about the products changing. My experience with the products is from 8 years ago. Nevertheless hire it out.


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## Catspaw

Hire it out. I [know/have worked with/is a neighbor of my boss] a flooring guy of the year. He does catalyzed varnish. If you have any bugs in the house you'll find them all laying on the floor on their backs the next day with there little legs all curled up nice and neat.

Cat/var is what big companies use because it's fast and hard. You can't really service it after the fact, but, big volume cabinet makers and such don't care. Flooring mfg.s do better.

Poly is for home owners. ....and is good, too.

But, I look at things like this ….it's a one shot deal. A room you repaint. Floors…well….you really want them to be done once and for all.

I think a pro job will satisfy you alot more than looking back than reminiscing about how you refinished your floor.


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## DanLyke

Thanks, all, I'm now chasing various leads to let someone else do this. Had someone say they knew a company that'd re-do it for around $2/square foot, which… well… at that price I definitely can't justify doing it myself.

There's a time and a place, I'll be doing my own cabinets, but y'all have convinced me that finding someone else to do the floors is a really good idea.


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## phil1950

The ORIGINAL Company to make water borne PU is still the best IMHO.

Basic Coatings. Their product Street Shoe is probably Still the Most Urathane content on the market.

Why the Urathane portion of Poly Urathane????

That is where the wearability is found.

The Poly portion is there to make the "U" easier to apply, as well as lowering the cost.

I was factory trained to apply Basic Coatings Street Shoe just after it came out.

At the time I was working for Jack Stuart Hardwood Floors out of Cloverdale, CA.

IIRC, that was … Twenty Years ago., maybe 19…. Old minds get cloudy about dates….

Please be seated when you hear the price per gallon….

But just like Fine Wines, & Fine Cigars… the best costs MONEY!

Hope that helps.

phil


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## DanLyke

Thanks, Phil. I'm now soliciting bids, but if the timing doesn't work out I may be back to doing it myself.

Price-wise, from what I can find that's about what I expected to pay for the good stuff. Yeah, it's twice as pricey as the cheap stuff, but when the house (in this area) costs mumbledy-mumble hundreds per square foot, spending an extra half-a-buck per square foot on a floor finish seems like it's moot.


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## TThomas

O.K…..I'm in the process of doing about 1600 sq ft of flooring….and I have done a half dozen floors in the past year..not saying this is gospel

1. like Todd said…if you can get the baseboards up you'll be better off and it makes it easier…

2. did this on the last floor I did…first round of sanding I used a drum sander….why? it's 2 to 3 times faster at getting the old poly off the floor than a orbital sander…....you just have to pay attention to what you are doing…don't stop to answer your phone with the sander running…...

3. After we get the poly off we now do a 3 step orbital sander…60-80 than 100 grit…..this gets the floor nice and smooth and is very easy to do with the orbital…..

4. on the last floor I did and the 1600 sq ft I'm about to do, in my own home we used a product called Waterlox…..the floors looked great…... and the last client told me that when they get a small scratch, from their dogs, they just wipe it down with a rag of Waterlox and they are good to go…they also said the it beads up water, liquids, just fine…..they have these floors in their bathrooms as well.

http://www.waterlox.com/site/550/default.aspx
It was lot easier to put down than a poly finish….
Floors really looked great….

if there is a down side the product cost more than a poly…...but I think the finished results are worth it….

just my thoughts …..I'm not the master floor guy…..I LIKE the look….you may not…I don't like working with that much poly…......Todd and the others my have different ideas on this…..I have 2 more floors to do with this finish after I get mine done….

Good luck hope some of this helps


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## BigTim

I used the Parks water based poly 18 years ago. Very easy, very fast. 5 coats in 2 days, not becauce of dry time, just started too late the first day. I would start at the front of the house, do the front room, 90% of the dinning room, then 2 bedrooms then back out & finish off the dinning room & could walk out the back door, around the house & walk on the front room ( sox only) with no problem. In 18 years I have had to lightly sand the liv/din room floor once. 2 kids, one full time grand kid, 1 Golden Retriever & 2 cats put many small scratches in it so a quick scuff sanding with my 5" ROS & 180 grit & a new coat of the same finish & the looks like new.


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## Dadoo

You know, I'd be curious what the pro's you've got bidding prefer to use. Some might use cheap stuff that won't last to keep their bids low and generate future work.


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## ListWhisperer

This is for me, one of many very interesting topics here. I just posted a reply to another thread about flooring, as I am about to embark on such a project myself. Since I will be making the flooring before installing it, I will have the luxury of putting finish on it before it gets installed on the floor. So I won't have to deal with orbital or drum sanders, etc.

I loved Thuan's post about how you can rub a dime's edge on a Pergo floor, and the dime's edge ridges will wear off. That's the kind of wear resistance I want my floor's finish to have! Since I can rig up whatever special environment is needed to apply whatever finish will be best, I'm looking to put a finish like that onto the boards before they get installed on the floor. I'd like to know more about the UV-cured finishes that I've been hearing about.


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## Painter_joe

> I have done some floors in the past with my business and the first thing I recommend to anyone now is to hire it out. For the people that don t want to listen to me I tell them this, "OK, so if you are going to do it yourself keep this in mind - it is a lot of hard work, but don t get divorced over it." They always think it is a joke until they get half way through the project. At this point, anyone reading this is thinking it s funny, I can assure you I am serious.
> 
> The businesses that specialize in it get it done so much faster and the finish is typically a catalyzed formula. They come in with a crew and knock out the sanding. Is it rocket science? No. It is just really hard work for a longer period of time than you think.
> 
> You have to use a wax stripper on the floor first otherwise you will merely grind wax residue into the wood. I have seen more than one floor release its homeowner finish job because of this. Here is something priceless: the look on somebody s face when you tell them why the finish is releasing and that it needs to be done again. Yeah - priceless.
> 
> I have applied the oil based MinWax finish, the Varathane, and the Parks Pro. I like the Varathane the best. They all have stood the test of time but it was an application issue. You did correctly identify the differences between the finishes. It depends on the look you want. I like the light color that the waterbase finish provides, but the oil base has a rich warmth to it. The oil base took 24 hrs between coats and They all did nice coverage in 3 coats.
> 
> You really have to have a good application plan and never stop moving. It goes on best with a squeegee on a pole. Sand with a drywall pole sander in between coats and a damp rag to grab up the dust. Remember this: it is not a fine furniture finish. You cannot get it that good and it is unreasonable to think that you can. Use a shop vac to suck everything out of the corners and cracks that you can.
> 
> When you are done a quarter round typically has to be laid against the base to cover the final bit that the sander did not get as good. The other option is to remove the base trim entirely prior to finishing. I really recommend this if possible because you get new unscarred trim in the end. As a remodeler I am usually tearing the trim out for the job anyway.
> 
> *Here is a big secret to a wood floor finish.* Everybody lets the finish wear completely down to the wood in front of the entry door and concentrated traffic areas. Do not let it wear out this far! When the finish is showing wear clean it with TSP and go over the floor with a pole sander again, then apply a coat or two of finish as needed. How often do you have to do this? Most people seem to get 5-7 years before they hit this point, but you do not have to sand it all the way down to bare wood again. *Here is something very important: You cannot do this if you use wax on the floor.* Usually a damp mop is all that is needed to clean the floor.
> 
> - Todd A. Clippinger


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## waho6o9

A license is needed to get the good floor finish in California.

Hire it out.


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## jonoseph

I hand planed the Douglas Fir floor in the hallway .Using water based polyurethane I noticed the tiny gaps between blocks were always left as gaps .100 years ago the job must have been acceptable . Sanding makes no difference to gaps .Todays solution was to use a plastic spreader ( like a credit card but bigger ) .It was made from a compact disc container . The edges were cut and rubbed straight on a diamond sharpening plate . All the corners were rounded and smoothed . Any block unevenness due to grain pattern or small notches can be filled by smoothing blobs of varnish across them . One feature was patches of tintack holes that needed filling . The varnish is not allowed to build up on flat grain and leave any dips. (A brush will always dig down into grooves and take out the varnish .) Visually the spreader method feels like the opposite of painting .You have trust the straight plastic edge and leave the wet white varnish where it is . Some softer grain will have been worn down further that the rest. That can be filled up again .
This nice quiet job is dust free and may need a few layers to get towards the final stages . 
It was indeed hard work but a dreaded drum sander was not allowed to destroy this wonderful floor . Too many corners and chicanes to use a sander . I had to chisel lines of dark green paint away from the skirting board edges .


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## jonoseph

I used Ronseal Diamond Hard Water Based Floor Varnish on the hallway floor blocks . The new tin needed a good stir to get the mixture smooth . Using a brush it can be tiresome as each layer seems very thin . To make sure all the tiny cracks between squares of 3 blocks would be sealed I tried a heavier application method . No brush this time . I used a large Refina plastering trowel .It`s about 20 inches long and 5 inches wide . The edges are thin flexible plastic .Ideal for fine plaster finishing. I poured the well mixed varnish out of the tin to get a 6 inch wide pool . Then spread it as a plasterer would. The edges were easy with such a wide trowel . This morning after the first 8 hours the surface looks very smooth. Cracks are well filled . One interesting effect just near two doors .The doors were closed and a constant air movement under the doors created a patch of wrinkling (within 12 inches )because the top skin had been forced to dry too quickly . That skin will sand smooth again and I will remember to leave the doors open next time . Right at the edges under a radiator there are a few small white patches that are still wet . Well recommended to save a lot of crawling around with a brush . -


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## squazo

I rented a drum sander, and a gigantic random orbital sander. I drum sanded, and then I used a 4.5 inch grinder to do the edger. then I used the giant random orbital sander, and then I redid the edges with a regular random orbit sander. I swept about 4 times, and then I wet mopped with denatured alcohol. I used minwax prestain conditioner, let that dry overnight. Then I used minwax stain and let that dry overnight, then I used minwax oil based polyurethane for floors, it is made special for hardwood floors. The first coat took a week to dry. Maybe I put it on to thick I dont know. Then I sanded with 220 and put on the second coat. That dried over night. It was really easy and it looks great.


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## Hammerthumb

Anyone who wishes to apply oil based finish should look up lambs wool applicator. If your using waterborne finish look up water based sleeve applicator. Also watch YouTube videos of professionals doing both applications. You may then want to call in a professional.
I've applied thousands of gallons of each. This is not something that can be self taught. You may be able to get a floor finished, but may lead to serious disappointment. Especially if your paying near $100 per gallon for waterborne finish that will only cover 100sf (3 coats).


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