# women in woodworking VS woodworking 101 for men



## mike85215 (Oct 16, 2009)

There is a forum that has been going for a couple of days now about a retailer in the Seattle area that had chosen to offer a woodworking class that was exclusive to men only, and they had another class that was offered to women only that was called sawdust therapy for women.
I have followed that forum and found it interesting to say the least. As one might expect from a site as large as Lumberjocks there are all kinds of views on this subject. From very pro supporters of diversification to those who shielded their comments in what I would assume "I don't want to be labled sexist" view.

What I have found the most interesting however is the comments from some who believe that there should never be an area where women are prohibited to the same areas that men are permitted, but yet these same people have no problem with excluding men from the women's areas. Case in point…it is wrong for the above mentioned store to provide separate classes for men and women…but yet it is perfectly acceptable maybe even encouraged to have a woodworking site that is designed exclusively for women.
I simply cannot understand that concept ( well I guess I do understand the concept but I will never agree with it). In my mind you are either in or you are out.
This idea that we need to be diversified…but then it is okay and acceptable to have the segregation when it benefits the minority is wrong….and cannot be made right.

Then there were also comments from what I would consider to be well intentioned that explain how women can not only be equal but are actually better at many many things than their male conterparts…if that is actually the case then to be perfectly frank and honest one would have to admit that then yes there is a difference and women are superior to men.

Now to set the record straight and to be perfectly clear on this before I am labled as a sexist pig…I believe that women should be allowed the same opportunities as men but they should never be given any advantages sither…If it is to be a LEVEL playing field then by all means make it level.


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## ropedog (Mar 26, 2008)

come on , we all know women are better then men, thats why we call them our " better half"


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## AaronK (Nov 30, 2008)

this is pretty much the affirmative action question.

the way i see it, the answer is this: the minority group - be it based on sex, gender, ethnic minority, or other - should have a level playing field. This is what rational people all agree upon. The issue of affirmative action arises because in lots of cases it is difficult to actually have a level playing field without first actively promoting members from historically repressed minorities. Affirmative action, or in this case, women-only classes are a way to promote woodworking by women and might attract people who feel intimidated by a mixed-sex class… and having a male-only class further reinforces the male hegemony in this craft.

of course, that also depends on how the female-only class is taught - it could be supportive without being patronizing, or it could be taught by some old and bitter dude who it teaching it as punishment for pissing off some administrator and couldnt care less about teaching a bunch of broads how to swing a hammer.

i guess to sum it up: in order to make it a level playing field, the minority has to be given some *temporary* advantage. a handicap basically. change doesnt happen overnight, especially not cultural change.


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## PurpLev (May 30, 2008)

a bit off topic, but yet related - I do not understand why when 2 things are considered 'different' - there is the necessity to mark one of those as 'better' - why can't 2 different things just be - different.

like 'yellow' and 'orange' - different.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Hey, Sharon…. Red Sox and Yankees. Two different teams, but neither is better than the other, right?


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## tooldad (Mar 24, 2008)

Then why do we make separate restrooms???? LOL

Actually my female students a lot of the time end up with projects that have more attention to detail. At the age of teenager, the patience and attention to detail in males has yet to mature.

Why do people have a problem with separate woodworking classes for men and women, but not workout classes? What if I want to do yoga?


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## jockmike2 (Oct 10, 2006)

And you can get into the argument is affirmative action working. I'm just playing the devil's advocate and in no way does this mean I believe this, one way or the other.


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## Milo (Apr 24, 2009)

I'd like to think we have gotten to the point where the playing field is trying to get as level as it can. Honest, logical folks will admit that there ARE areas that will never naturally be level (men don't have babies, women don't play lineback in pro football (as don't most MEN!)), but when it comes to matters of EDUCATION there should not be barriers.

That said, I am very old school. Women should be treated like Ladies. Open doors, walk on the outside, hold chairs, etc,etc,etc. This doesn't make me misogynistic or chauvinistic. I'd LIKE to think this makes me a gentleman. I reserve the right to not act like a pig.

Enough rambling…. NEXT!


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## jockmike2 (Oct 10, 2006)

Well said!


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## ropedog (Mar 26, 2008)

i find it funny that people have to tell us it's the last time they will comment on something instead not commenting.


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## SteveMI (May 19, 2009)

What gender is the "the minority group" in this? Wikipedia has ratio at 105 males to 100 females, not enough difference to me for a minority status.

Steve.


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## AaronK (Nov 30, 2008)

oh sorry - replace "minority" with "historically oppressed."


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

where there are women, just like some men

there is "drama"

occasionally there is a "freak" of nature, a tempered beast that gets along with its kin.


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## NathanAllen (Oct 16, 2009)

The problem is easily solved. If you insist on having two courses, one taught in a certain style and the other in another then list that in the course description. Regardless of intentions, calling one class for men only and another for women only is a lightning rod for discord.


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## WoodNuts (Apr 30, 2010)

Are we looking for an explanation?


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## MadJester (Sep 30, 2011)

I don't see the point in excluding either one from the other…when you have different levels of expertise, different levels of interest and a mix of both men and women in ANY class, it promotes competition, encouragement and a desire to do your best…it becomes a challenge when you see someone who excels, and if you are human enough, you can help those that aren't as creative….it matters not which gender you are, just that you learn and share and strive to make objects from wood…that's the common denominator….not male, not female…just wood….by making it all one or the other, you take away the opportunities for expansion…you limit your field of vision, and you limit yourself…


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## wseand (Jan 27, 2010)

Oh come on men, its nice to go somewhere where there isn't women around, and the same goes for women. Why can't we have a male/female only anything anymore. If I want to start a group for men only then I should be allowed to do that. If you don't like it then start your own Damn group with women only, why should it make a difference to anyone.

In Las Cruces, NM, there are all kinds of organizations that only help the Hispanic Community, there is a Hispanic Chamber of Commerce. What do I care, I don't, but don't get pissed when I open a white male COC.

If you want to open a bar and only allow men, women, or Hispanics in there then you should be allowed to. It doesn't hurt anyone, only their feelings. I get tired of people getting confused that their feelings are somehow related to something being unlawful or should be unlawful.

I won't get started on Affirmative Action or view my true feelings because I will probably get flagged/flogged.

Bill


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

I don't see the two classes as affirmative action. Single sex classes, are no different than "ladies night" at a bar or having a "man Cave"

Men behave differently when there are no women around - - - the reverse is also true.

Those activities are not creating barriers.

Affirmative action is quite different, and operates with no real definitions of equality. We get the "special interest groups" that feel we need to "Promote more X, Y Z, in science" or we need to "Get more women to be woodworkers".

They need *equal access *- but this promotion/coersion is not any less virulent than other groups with monochromatic or uni-genered views.

As an example - what if everything were truly gender blind… and after 10 years you conducted a study and found that "employment in cabinetmaking" was 60% men and 40% women.

Is that result WRONG? or Historically oppressed? I think not.

Just as I think there will always be more female nurses.
More male plumbers.

NOTHING is forcing that to be the case, but when it comes down to it… men and women are wired differently - those that claim it is about Nurture and not Nature, don't have kids…. even of same gender, my 3 kids could hardly be and more different in their interests and aptitudes in different areas.

I say we knock down the barriers, and then the population much like water will seek its own level.

The idea that we need to knock the barriers down and then start a "Pumping scheme" to push people into areas they may not have aptitude or interest in, is the wrong approach.


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## wseand (Jan 27, 2010)

Well said Dr. Dirt.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

Hmmm.. here's an observation: In our workplace lunchroom, us men-folk relax and make silly but obnoxious comments to one another. We're friends. We're at ease with one another.

If a female co-worker decides to sit among us, the conversation becomes stilted, polite, and self-conscious. We're all back at our workstations by the time the lunch period is over.

I'm just sayin'.....


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

EXACTLY - - Cat… that is why I have no issue with single sex classes being offered.

The same happens in an all women breakroom - - once a man shows up, the dynamic becomes different.

it would be unfortunate if ALL the classes were single gender, but Offering a class for each periodically is fine.


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