# Waterstones VS Oil Stones VS Diamond Stones



## Holbs

so i'm about to venture into the world of sharpening chisels, planes, blades, scrapers, planer/jointer blades.
i look about LJ's forum about stones (i always research before asking).
some weeks ago, i mentioned i was going to do some work at EZE LAP (i guess competitor to DMT) and while there, might score on some employee discounted items. well, that day is coming on Thursday.

what i gathered from forum posts:

oil stones: could possibly leave oily feel on items afterwards. physically or… psychologically  
can be messy as you are working with oily fluids. 
transmission fluid, kerosene, WD40, mixed in with mineral oil if in freezing situations.
sharpens slower than water stones.
using very little lubricant (as in drops) as compared to gallons of water on water stones.
does not need flattening as much as water stones.

water stones: need to be flattened after some use.
slide around so need a base or holding contraption.
stones in a freezing temperature will crack.
need to be soaked before use.
splash damage onto nearby wood projects cause cursing.
popular and economical.

diamond stones: rarely need flattening. 
lower maintenance. 
they wear out quickly on ferrous metals.
 the extra course can be used to flatten water stones.
DO NOT use alcohol instead of water.
can use kerosene to help cutting action more than water and no rust issues.
spendier

ceramic stones out of my price range for sure.
Ezelaps are polycrystalline diamonds = cheaper and lasts almost as long as DMT
DMTs are monocrystalline diamonds = spendier but lasts longer

i'll have to see what happens at EZE LAP later this week if i can get some good delas. oddly, amazon has the EZE LAP cheaper than EZE LAP website.
also, they have 2" and 3" height stones. i'm unsure what the practical uses of an additional inch gives.


----------



## DKV

You don't have sandpaper on your list.


----------



## Holbs

i considered the scarey shop method. i do not want to constantly be changing out paper, have it wear out too fast, buying more paper, etc


----------



## thedude50

You are full of ideas that are not exactly correct I would love to fill you in on all of them but here is the low down If you go with oil stones you will work about three times as long to get an edge. Diamons are nice but they are also expensive. Sand Paper works just fine but is penny wise and dollar foolish. And then there is water stones the cheep ones have to be soaked for long periods before use. However the good stones Shapton And Naniwa do not have to be soaked they work well. they work fast and they are cost effective some stones require constant flatning while others are harder and dish less quickly My personal choice in stones is Naniwa I use a 400 1000 3000 10000 stone. I use the Chosera model and find them to be the best stones on the market today. buy what you will and after buying several systems you will find one you like I have found mine.


----------



## stonedlion

Sandpaper is a good way to start with a minimum investment. If you do much sharpening, it will quickly out pace the cost of just about any other method.

My the time I got to the point where I couldn't justify the expense of sandpaper anymore I was ready to graduate to water stones. And I am thrilled with the results I get.


----------



## Holbs

dude50… i was going to go the water stone route for the reasons you mentioned above.
i bought up diamond stones only because i know the facility manager and office manager at Eze Lap (i never knew they did sharpening stones for back then i was not into wood working). IF there is a great deal to be had (such as buying a set of diamond stones at the price of a set of water stones), i want to go into it with pro's / con's.

i've done the same with the R-Max company (makes the 4" 4'x8' foiled sheets R-30 of insulation). price at home depot is $80 a sheet. at the local factory, i can get it for $20 if they have minor defects (minor cosmetic scratches that do not end up on retail floors).


----------



## stonedlion

And to second what thedude said, I bought a Naniwa 12000 as my finish stone and I was amazed at how fast it cuts for that high of a grit.


----------



## waho6o9

Some use a combo of DMT's and water stones. Getting a wicked sharp
edge with a Naniwa stone after using diamond stones is a great system as well.

Remember, push the chisel away from you, cause when you get a surgical edge, and
you will, you'll stab yourself once, and that's all it takes.

I was shocked how fast and far that chisel went into my finger.


----------



## Mosquito

You also don't have to stick with the same thing start to finish. I use diamond stones up to 1200, and then finish on a waterstone for a good polish. If you find a good deal on decent diamond stones (especially if they're close in price to waterstones) I wouldn't say that is a bad option. I also use my most coarse diamond stone to flatten my waterstone.

I guess waho snuck in front of me and said more or less what I was typing


----------



## waho6o9

Probably cause I learned some of that from you Mos.

Mos shortens the learning curve as do most LJers!


----------



## dczward

I started with sandpaper, tried a Work Sharp 3000, and water stones. I settled on oil stones, with a course diamond plate to flatten them. The reason I went oil over water is that the water stones are too sloppy, with all the slurry and soaking. With oil stones I like that the process leaves some oil around to protect the tools from… water, which is all over when doing water stones. The speed of sharpening isn't much of an issue vs water; how many more seconds is 30 strokes vs 10 when re-honing a micro bevel? Unless I'm sharpening every tool in the shop, thats no biggie. I do still use the Work Sharp 3000 for removing a lot of material or on a few tools that don't sit we'll in my honing giude.

But the advice that will come up is; pick a system you like, learn it well, and use it. They all work if you learn them.


----------



## Holbs

if nothing catches my interest down at Eze Lap, i'll be book that was linked somewhere here in the forums about sharpening systems.
i figured, coursing through a couple hundred posts about varying ways, best ways, do's / dont's of sharpening forum posts would help me. if anything, it gets more confusing 

just like buying my first jointer… i'll probably just jump right into it and figure it out as i go


----------



## thedude50

Like I said there is no soaking if you buy the better stones Like the Naniwa


----------



## Mosquito

I also don't soak my King 6000 grit waterstone, just spray and use. It's a pretty cheap but still decent waterstone, as long as you keep it flat. I plan to get a better stone like a shapton or naniwa eventually, but for now I am content with my king.

Ultimately, don't be afraid to try different things. You never know what you'll end up liking most.


----------



## Moai

Sticking films on a hard and flat surface is another clean, affordable, effective and quick method. It could be on a lapping certified granite chunk, a 1/2 inch thick glass plate or a very hard and flat surface. I keep several grits of "films" attatched to 3/4 MDF pieces at the side of my bench, and with the help of a good jig, I can razor sharp any blade in minutes. I'm a cabinetmaker for a High End, Architectural Woodwork shop in Naples Fl, and I rely everyday on several cutting edge tools, like planes and chisels.


----------



## lwllms

Holbs,
I don't really care which sharpening method you decide on but I'd like to give an opposing view to something posted here. I'm pretty sure we make, heat treat and sharpen more plane irons than anyone else on this forum. Flattening and sharpening represent a portion of the labor in what we make. In an effort to keep labor costs down we've tried about everything out there. The fastest and most efficient method we've found is oil stones. We use mostly fine India and translucent hard Arkansas stones dressed by 220 grit DMT diamond plates and we use these for their speed. In some ways they can even be almost too aggressive. Like other tools, you have to know what you're trying to do and why to get things done quickly and easily.

I'm reluctant to post this and kind of cringe at the thought but here goes. Too bad I did this so quickly Megan missed the most difficult part and the control method but this gives you an idea:
http://www.popularwoodworking.com/techniques/how-larry-williams-hones-a-chisel-%E2%80%93-dont-blink


----------



## donwilwol

I use DMT and oil.

It also depends on what you really need to do. I hollow grind on an 8" or 10" wheel, then hit it with a few strokes on my oil stone.

If you're trying to do all the work with stones(no grinder), you'll want the course grits, and they are required for flattening the backs.

I tried water stones, and they may be faster, but you'll use that extra time in cleanup. Plus, if you're shop freezes like mine, you only need to forget to leave them out once.

I'd gladly go back to all oil if i had to, but I like the DMT's. Some one will need to give me a very compelling reason to ever go back to water stones, and I haven't seen any argument come close.


----------



## thedude50

I beg to differ on the oil stones being fast I sharpen every day I don't care about tempering and I don't care what you chose to do but it is a well known fact the fastest grind is a Japanese Water stone. Oil stones are old school and slow Water stones are the fastest I would be happy for anyone who thinks they have an oilstone that cuts A2 steel faster than a Naniwa stone to come to my shop and prove it. If I am wrong I will post it publicly right here But I doubt I am wrong.

Don You have to make a sharpening bench like mine you just hose it off and it is clean again. Otherwise Waterstones are messy it is the price you pay for speed.


----------



## donwilwol

I have to ask, how long does it take to sharpen an iron. I won't disagree that waterstones are quicker. I just don't understand how that 45 seconds worth of savings is worth talking about.

I get the first time, or taking a nick out, or after a nasty fall to the concrete takes a little longer, but put some power to it at that point. I don't care if its a grinder, work sharp, belt sander, wet grinder or tormek.

A normal sharpening (and I'm not talking touch up) takes a couple of minutes, maybe 3 or 4.

I've timed myself, it takes 7 - 8 minutes to regrind a bevel and finish sharpening.

What am I missing about this time savings everyone harps on?


----------



## paratrooper34

Don, I don't think it is a time factor. I think it is whatever an individual is comfortable with. I have a DVD where Larry Williams sharpens using oilstones (I use waterstones). I did not notice any difference in time between what he does and what I do. He seemed to hone the blades in a reasonable amount of time. To me, if you like whatever system you use, good on you. At least you are happy with it and you get results that you can live with. If it is a 45 second difference, I think that is not worth changing the system you like to another just to gain that 45 seconds back. Seems to me that 7 - 8 minutes to get a blade sharp is pretty damn good. Comfort and familiarity with the system you use means more than saving a little time, in my opinion. I happen to use waterstones. Never used oilstones. Do I think waterstones are better? To be honest, I don't know. What I do know is I can get blades sharp with them and it works for me. I don't think you are missing anything.

Forgot to add: I don't know why people say waterstones are messy. I don't see any mess at all. I keep mine stored in a tub of water (a little bleach added to avoid scum) I keep a five gallon bucket beside it to rinse them off after I flatten them. I wipe down with a rag when I am done. No mess at all. Change out the five gallon bucket every now and then, good to go. Using a hose to clean up? Holy cow, there is no way a hose is spraying anything down in my shop. Why are so many saying they are messy?


----------



## lwllms

"... I would be happy for anyone who thinks they have an oilstone that cuts A2 steel faster than a Naniwa stone to come to my shop and prove it…"

Well, there I agree with you. But why A-2? I can see it for precision hardened gears that may be exposed to abrasive contamination but not for an edge tool. Still, an India stone has the same abrasive as most man-made water stones and properly maintained an India stone will cut just as fast as a water stone of the same grit. Arkansas stones with novaculite as an abrasive are about the same hardness as the carbide inclusions in A-2 so they abrade A-2 slowly if at all. That's the way it is with abrasives, the abrasive has to be harder than the material being abraded. The domestic woods commonly used for woodworking contain at most trace amounts of silica or anything else harder than normal high carbon steel. While A-2's touted advantage is its resistance to abrasion. Abrasion simply isn't the dulling wear mechanism most US woodworkers will encounter.

I'm no expert in tribology and I can't say what the dulling wear mechanism is, only that it's not normally abrasion. It could be adhesive wear or a temperature induced corrosive wear, I'm not sure. I do know that American steel companies seem to use abrasive wear as a gauge for "wear resistance." European steel makers at least break out adhesive wear as a separate wear category. A-2 and O-1 steel have an almost identical resistance to adhesive wear.

Yes, A-2 steel has hard carbide inclusions but you need to understand what inclusions are. Inclusions are impurities that aren't structurally part of the steel. Think pebbles in a sheet of ice. When those inclusions land on a cutting edge, they're prone to just falling out. The carbides are formed in heat treating but their formation requires long soaks at above the critical temperature of the surrounding steel. Getting fine grain when heat treating requires going just to critical temperature and keeping the steel at critical temperature just long enough to ensure uniform heating. So even the steel that surrounds the carbides in A-2 steel is more coarse than properly heat treated high carbon steel.

ATSM wear tests have little or nothing to do with the performance of a cutting edge, they're testing a flat surface rubbing on a flat surface. It's all kinda nuts and I think woodworkers have been sold a bill of goods when it comes to A-2 steel.


----------



## Holbs

i appreciate everyone jumping in and describing their sharpening methods.
when you are about to travel down that road of sharping blades & chisels and all… and you are new, the information out there in wood working forums from people that do the sharpen is, confusing. sorta like comparing a ford to a chevy (as it is, i'm a VW man myself).

as it stands, if no good deals to be had at Eze Lap tomorrow with diamond stones, i'll go oil stones. if it's physically slower by 5-10%, that's fine. my great grandfather used oil stones when he was doing his wood working in the basement. i still remember his little triangular tin oil can with flexible 4" spout. that thing was so cool.


----------



## thedude50

A2 because for now it is the new industry standard and will be for a wile except for lee valley stuff and they are not selling their new steel at a price that will get me off A2 I use Cosman Blades in every vintage plane I own that has one to fit and I have a lot of LN planes they are all A2. I discussed this with Chris Schwarz and he just likes being old school like you. But I don't have the extra time to spend an extra 5 minutes with a slower method for me time is money in a hobby shop it is just time in the shop but I have bills to pay and things need to be done as fast as they can.

Holbs I hope they give you the diamond stones for free you should enjoy them


----------



## donwilwol

Lance, at a 5 minute savings per day (which I don't believe) I'd like to know what the ROI is for buying all those irons. So unless you get them all for free, it just doesn't seem like a good business decision. IMHO

Holbs, the good thing is there is no wrong decision. They all make irons sharp.


----------



## helluvawreck

Nice post. I will say that for carving knives and chisels the ceramic stones are great. However, I also have oil, waterstones, and diamond.

helluvawreck aka Charles
http://woodworkingexpo.wordpress.com


----------



## Holbs

So on my visit to Eze Lap today…interesting.
I was shown the process of how they make diamond sharpening stones, when in fact they are not stones at all 
The office staff were fantastic and talkative. I was present when they were answering questions to folks that called in and they seemed very friendly. I liked that part. I also liked that they try to use as much local folks as possible. example: the wooden bases are purchased at a local hardwood store, same for the metal. I forgot to ask about the diamonds but doesnt matter as i do not think there are any diamond mines in nevada  I was expecting some huge production assembly line, like what you see on those old Ford 1920 assembly lines. Instead, I saw some guys around the chemical vats with those big heavy aprons and goggles, people hand assembling the paddles and packaging. Pretty smooth outfit.

While i was there, i received the extra coarse, coarse, medium, fine, and extra fine 3"x8" diamond plates. In addition to a planer/jointer sharpener (which has 2 stones inside of it: coarse and fine which it says can sharpen the blades without removing from machines), a mobile version (looks like a butterfly knife), a 2"x6" fine wtih leather pouch (for out in the woods hunting knifes, i guess).

I also talked to the people in charge about getting their name out there. Suggested they should come to LJ's to introduce themselves and give forum members a pretty enticing discount so folks can see the quality for themselves.


----------



## woodworker59

Just my two cents, I use water stones, I start at 800, then 1000, 1200, 2000, 4000… this is if I start from something raw… if it just needs a touch up, I will start at 2000 and go to the 4000 and its good to go.. 
I have found that water stones, don't have to be messy, don't have to be soaked… at least the decent ones don't.. and can sharpen very fast.. I have talked to many people that go far beyond the 4000 that I stop at. but as yet I have found that my planes and chisels are sharp enough to do the job and then some.. I too have managed to cut myself with one of my chisels.. went through my flesh like it wasn't even there.. that's sharp enough for me.. like I said just my two cents… Papa


----------



## donwilwol

Papa, I have a bad habit of sliding my finger across the bottom of the mouth to remove shavings. Even set for a very fine cut, it can cause some blood flow. I know I know better.


----------



## Holbs

if the chisels get that kinda sharp.. do you wear finger protection? i could see wearing gloves or something when i start this
the dewault chisels i purchased seemed pretty darn sharp against the sides of my fingers as i held them and moved them along my mortise lines. and that's factory sharp.
oh…btw.. i did purchase the veritas mortise gauge. fed ex ground for the win!


----------



## waho6o9

Welcome to the world of surgical edges Holbs, good job.


----------



## Holbs

i wouldnt of even known about any version of stones, if not for the site. i would of not even thought possible or something. and bought new ones or send blades & chisels off for professional sharpening


----------



## thedude50

Don, The reason the Irons make since is they dull much slower this is quite simple to understand. I know your a smart guy I don't know why you would question the effectiveness of an a2 iron over an a1. If you want to sharpen a iron with almost every use this is fine, I don't really care what you choose to do or how you choose to sharpen. I just want to tell people what I have found that saves time and thus money. I have to sharpen a A2 blade about every 4th use this is usually just a two step process I hit it with a 1000 and then a 10000 grit Naniwa stone. I seldom need to regrind a bevel but when I do I turn to the tormek. I prefer the accuracy I get from the Tormek over any other method I have used I have many oter methods available as I test so many new ways of sharpening.

Papa I have to disagree Whetstones are messy Water stones are the messiest. I made a dry sink and have a garden hose attached to my wall in the shop I can wash the whole station down with a quick spray it is far away from my woodworking and is in area where I fettle tools. I love the dry sink I have made a a solid surface stone holder that holds all the stones ready to use I like the process to be quick and easy I don't like a big mess in the shop so I am a bit anal about this part of the shop.


----------



## Holbs

that was part of the reason why i was going to go oil stones or diamond stones. as whatever route i go, the sharpening station i'll build (wow… amazing sharpening station projects here i'll have to recreate!) will be forever in the garage. wetstones would not fair too well in the under freezing temps in garage.
of course, i was lucky to get the full range of 3×8" diamond stones grits (and extra's) at a… well… price of a stick of bubble gum  i couldnt say no.
i do not know how to "review" the quality of these diamond sharpeners. i only know the customer service and seeing how they are manufactured.


----------



## donwilwol

You'll be happy holbs.

Dude, I'll stick to my vintage Stanley's. Both irons and planes. I hope you convince a whole bunch of wealthy American woodworkers to spend lots of disposable income on new a2 planes and irons. Its not going to make them any better woodworkers, but the economy could use the boost.


----------



## beevis

I'm new to sharpening and jumped right into to DMT Dia-Sharp diamond plates. I bought a 4 set of Extra Coarse/Coarse and Fine/Extra Fine. I'm hand sharpening using the Paul Sellers method, then stropping with chromium oxide on a piece of leather glued to a flat piece of wood in the vice.

On my first try I was able to make a controlled slice through a piece of paper as he demonstrates in a youtube video. I have an unheated shop and like not having to worry about messing around with water stones and freezing water. I also really like that I don't have to worry about flattening these.

Using my chisels for chopping/paring Maple drawer sides and the chisels are performing well.


----------



## thedude50

Don you can spend almost as much on vintage planes as a new premium plane costs just look at the bedrock market for a nice 4 /12 size the 604 1/2 costs as much for vintage as a new better LN


----------

