# Looks Square to Me ...



## ralbuck (Mar 12, 2012)

I have found some H-F tools to be great for the price. I have been totally DISAPPOINTED with the 4-4-1/2 inch grinders they sell though. I will never buy another of those.

I have checked my H-F 1/2 inch drive torque wrench against a Mac tools one and the readings for it were within 1% of the $250 wrench-Way good enough for me.


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## dschlic1 (Jan 3, 2013)

Several years ago I purchased a HF combination square. Unfortunately it was out of square. Fortunately it was not difficult to adjust it to square. Still have it today and still use it occasionally. A year ago I purchased a PEC combination square and that is now my principle tool.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

I find those HF and Empire squares to be accurate, but the markings leave so much to be desired. If you want to check square, great, but if you want to set it to 3-15/16" to use as a guide, it's difficult to read them.

I have a Starrett 4" combination that someone left behind and I adopted many years ago, but when I'm spending my own money, I find PEC to be just as nice for almost half the price.


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## RonAylor1760 (Aug 17, 2016)

> I find those HF and Empire squares to be accurate, but the markings leave so much to be desired. If you want to check square, great, but if you want to set it to 3-15/16" to use as a guide, it s difficult to read them.
> 
> I have a Starrett 4" combination that someone left behind and I adopted many years ago, but when I m spending my own money, I find PEC to be just as nice for almost half the price.
> 
> - RichTaylor


Interesting … I find even the 1/32nds easy to read. I just set this little guy to 3-31/32" with no issue … and I'm positive my shop is darker than yours!


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Interesting … I find the even the 1/32nds easy to read. I just set this little guy to 3-31/32" with no issue … and I m positive my shop is darker than yours!
> 
> - Ron Aylor


But maybe my eyes are worse than yours…lol

I guess they aren't all that way. I had one that looked like the markings were struck with a cold chisel. I think it was an Empire.

As Roseanne Roseannadanna used to say, never mind.


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## Planeman40 (Nov 3, 2010)

Not long ago I was working in my shop with my retired Lockheed engineer friend who was using one of my old Stanley squares. Being the precision kind of guy he is he checked my square before using it and found it to be "un-square". I was surprised! But he was right. Needing another square, I bought one from Harbor Freight. It is dead on and satisfies my precision Lockheed engineer friend. Square is square is square! Be it a cheap HF one or a Starret one. Same for Harbor Freight's dial indicator. It is as accurate as my Mitutoyo indicator. Just because its is "cheap" doesn't mean it doesn't do the job. Yes, some things are losers, but these are usually obvious upon close inspection at the place of purchase. I am usually satisfied with my Harbor Freight purchases. If not, I can return them with no questions asked. They are good about that. And often I find the exact same thing Harbor Freight sells at double the price or more at other stores. Their $30 spray gun was $75 at Rockler, their $20 air powered metal saw was priced at $90 at other industrial websites with one at $199! Harbor Freight buys in volume DIRECT from Chinese manufacturers whereas big box stores and other places usually buy from USA distributors who mark up the price, usually doubling it.


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## OggieOglethorpe (Aug 15, 2012)

I have one of the Pittsburgh examples, it's decent, was inexpensive, and I use it outdoors…

The good thing about combo squares of any brand is that "squareness" is easily user adjustable. All you need is a file with one unsafe edge and some blue tape.

To me, "square" is about 25% of the value of a combo square…

To me, it's the other 75% that makes owning at least one of the more expensive examples worth owning. Because I do so much more than check for square with the tool when I'm working in my shop, the single tool that easily spends the most time in my hand is a combo square. I'm a big fan of the locking, unlocking, and sliding action, the way satin chrome works for my eyes in just about any light, interchangeable blades and fittings of different lengths, scales, and measuring systems, and simply the way the top end examples feel in my hand.

I really like my Starrett stuff but can also recommend PEC. PEC makes many of the other brands that use satin chrome blades, including some of my Lee Valley examples.


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## Ted78 (Dec 3, 2012)

Just a quick question. Are the markings on it really etched? or are they stamped? I know it doesn't really matter but some of the more aggressively stamped rules just feel kinda rough in the hand, and this would be by far the cheapest I've seen any etched rules.


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## RonAylor1760 (Aug 17, 2016)

> Just a quick question. Are the markings on it really etched? or are they stamped? I know it doesn t really matter but some of the more aggressively stamped rules just feel kinda rough in the hand, and this would be by far the cheapest I ve seen any etched rules.
> 
> - Ted78


Yes sir … stainless steel rule with etched markings. My old Empire square has stamped markings … and boy can you tell a difference!


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## Ted78 (Dec 3, 2012)

Cool, I think Ill pick one up. Thanks for the review


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## Planeman40 (Nov 3, 2010)

And her is a tip.

If you have trouble with the locking nut on the square, just add a thin lock washer between the nut and the square body. It keeps tension on the nut and keeps the nut from loosening and allows the measuring blade to still slide back and forth if the nut is backed off a touch. You may have to round over the locking edge of the lock washer a bit, but I haven't had to do this.


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## dday (Jun 27, 2014)

Good info. The guys here at work were talking about this subject one day and how their "precision" measuring tools weren't square. Went home and checked my cheap Lowe's combination and framing squares and they are right on the money. They are made by Swanson and are reasonably priced. I'll keep HF in mind for others.

As for reading them, I saw a youtube video about painting them, so that's what I did. Some red model paint, brushed on and then wiped off leaves a very readable contrast between the etching and stainless


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

Combination squares are used by woodworkers and machinists. Each has their own level of precision. From a woodworker's point of view, the HF square may be adequate, but if real precision is needed as with a machinist, high end squares like Starrett, Mitutoyo, B&S, etc need to be employed. In that case, HF won't hack it.


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## Planeman40 (Nov 3, 2010)

> Combination squares are used by woodworkers and machinists. Each has their own level of precision. From a woodworker s point of view, the HF square may be adequate, but if real precision is needed as with a machinist, high end squares like Starrett, Mitutoyo, B&S, etc need to be employed. In that case, HF won t hack it.
> 
> - MrRon


True. However we are talking woodworking here. There is a vast difference in tolerances that are required or can be achieved between the two mediums. And most amateur machinists (I am one) are hard pressed to work to a tolerance of .001 inch in metal. Its an impossibility in wood (and is unnecessary).


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## RonAylor1760 (Aug 17, 2016)

> True. However we are talking woodworking here. There is a vast difference in tolerances that are required or can be achieved between the two mediums. And most amateur machinists (I am one) are hard pressed to work to a tolerance of .001 inch in metal. Its an impossibility in wood (and is unnecessary).
> 
> - Planeman40


Could not have said it better myself!


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Generally, this is true "you get what you pay for. However, I've owned Strarrett trash that HF tools would have stomped all over. The Starrett tool was well over a degree off, making it worthless, even when using it for less finicky wood projects. Interestingly, I've never experienced that with the few HF tools I own.

Then there is the fact that you can, often, pick up ten tools and get ten different results. I've had to pick up different tapes, for an obvious example, to get one I was happy with. Going in the other directions, if HF tools are sloppy enough in their tolerances, sooner or later, you're going to get one which competes with the precision brands.

As someone else said, accurate is accurate. Of course, off is off too.

Guess the smart money would be on being willing to adjust the square or to bring along a known good one to test against. At four bucks versus seventy, well…....


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## Markmh1 (Mar 9, 2017)

After reading this, I'm wondering if the fellows who are reporting their squares as square are accurately measuring squareness.

As a Toolmaker, my Starrett 6" #20 was measured on a Moore jig grinder, (analog) and a Brown and Sharpe CMM (digital). It was found .0002 on the Moore and .00015 out on the BS in 6" of travel.

I have used this master square to check other combination squares, and using a cigarette cellophane as a feeler gauge (.001), have found every combination square I have checked to be "square". (Millers Falls, Stanley, Starrett, Lufkin and Brown & Sharpe. I have to ask myself if I'm living in a Fool's Paradise, or is this stuff really this close.

When I think of how hard I worked to get things square, (There is no bs'ing with a 16 cavity mold) I can scarcely believe a $200 tool is going to pass muster over a run of 12".

I have seen fellows use "the pencil test" for squareness and I just kinda snicker. For woodworking this may be OK, but I would have to say this could be deemed "close enough".

Mark


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

And that is, exactly, why I've been considering leaving this machinist site.

"I have seen fellows use "the pencil test" for squareness and I just kinda snicker. For woodworking this may be OK, but I would have to say this could be deemed "close enough."


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Oops. Wrong site.


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## Planeman40 (Nov 3, 2010)

Checking squareness of a combination square or any other square is easy for those who don't know this. Just apply the square to an edge and mark a fine line to the work at 90 degrees from the edge. Flip the square and align it to the marked line. If it matches the line perfectly then the square is "square"


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

I am unique in that I can position my thumb and index finger in a perfect 90º angle. I kid you not.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

[still looking for the laughter with tears button]


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