# Nervous about strength of laminated workbench top



## m4778 (Jan 5, 2021)

I am building my first woodworking workbench and cobbled together my design based on different articles and images ive seen online. Since i've started i've read and learned a lot more such that I would have done some things very differently, but alas some things can't easily be re-done (I now know I should have re-sawn 2×12s instead of using 2×4s due to poor lumber quality, but its too late now….).

The tabletop is construction grade douglas fir from lowes, and it is 26 2×4s that I used my planer to flatten on all sides. With 26 2×4s laminated together to get a 35in table, 6ft long.

With this tabletop I have 2 main concerns.

1) One of the glue joints towards the center didn't have much if any glue squeeze out after clamping (image below). I covered the whole face (titebond III), but I guess it was a thin coating… How strong is the joint and how nervous do I need to be about it.

2) I was planning on doing pinned mortise and tenon joints to connect the legs to the top, without top stretchers to support the tabletop. Is this a terrible idea? Is a laminated 3in (after flattening) top thick enough that I can get by without stretchers?

I'm scared my workbench is going to fold in half like a taco the first time I tap it with a hammer…


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

That a wide top! There is only one way to know if you will be okay. If the center gap is bothering you if could be ripped out and re-glued but it gets a little tough to flatten a move wide slabs. Maybe a center tool rest or tray is in order here.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

It really depends on the structure of the base. There are tons of tried and true bench designs out there. And Chris Schwarz's latest book is free to download. No reason to reinvent the wheel IMHO. Like for example, I built mine from Richard Maguire's plans. The top is just 2x planks laid flat on the base. But the bas is designed to where I could park a tank on this thing.


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## m4778 (Jan 5, 2021)

Yea the width of the top is another one of those things I have since realized the error of my ways…

There are actually no visible gaps, what you see in the full table image is just glue coming out of the seams between the chunks I most recently glued, and in the first image that is just a shadow, there is no visible gaps. However I was concerned because there is basically no glue squeeze out in that first seam…


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## m4778 (Jan 5, 2021)

> It really depends on the structure of the base. There are tons of tried and true bench designs out there. And Chris Schwarz's latest book is free to download. No reason to reinvent the wheel IMHO. Like for example, I built mine from Richard Maguire's plans. The top is just 2x planks laid flat on the base. But the bas is designed to where I could park a tank on this thing.
> 
> - SMP


Yea I have since read that book, which is how I have now learned of all my errors, but unfortunately I already glued the top haha.

But for the legs I was going to follow almost exactly what Chris does in that book, except with 3x laminated 2×6 instead of 4x like he used.

But he had a 5in thick top which clearly doesn't need stretchers. I'm not sure if my 3in top is the same in not needing stretchers though…


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## m4778 (Jan 5, 2021)

Maybe I should just try hitting it with a sledgehammer (with a scrap piece of wood in between)


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## LeeRoyMan (Feb 23, 2019)

Go lay it on the curb and the street and drive your truck over it. If it doesn't break your golden.

IMO, If you have any decent amount of glue on the faces it's not going to fold. 
You don't need squeeze out in order to be strong.

I'm sure you are going to have a lot of wood movement but I don't know what effect that will have.


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

I did mine out of 2X10" or 12" (I can't remember) but if you select good boards you can rip out the center to get two pieces with a great grain pattern. I did screw that up on a few to avoid knots but it didn't matter. So don't sweat the small errors. On mine the tray and top are separate and removable and if my top was any bigger I would not be able to move it solo. I also found out that as you approach 4" in thickness hold fasts start acting up and not sticking. If you want some real fun flatten that top with hand planes. Most incredible workout I have ever had.


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## m4778 (Jan 5, 2021)

> I did mine out of 2X10" or 12" (I can t remember) but if you select good boards you can rip out the center to get two pieces with a great grain pattern. I did screw that up on a few to avoid knots but it didn t matter. So don t sweat the small errors. On mine the tray and top are separate and removable and if my top was any bigger I would not be able to move it solo. I also found out that as you approach 4" in thickness hold fasts start acting up and not sticking. If you want some real fun flatten that top with hand planes. Most incredible workout I have ever had.
> 
> - controlfreak


Flattening with hand planes is what's on the docket for today haha. I used my lunchbox planer after gluing the top in 4 chunks, then glued those 4 chunks together. They didn't match up perfectly so hand plane it is…


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> I did mine out of 2X10" or 12" (I can t remember) but if you select good boards you can rip out the center to get two pieces with a great grain pattern. I did screw that up on a few to avoid knots but it didn t matter. So don t sweat the small errors. On mine the tray and top are separate and removable and if my top was any bigger I would not be able to move it solo. I also found out that as you approach 4" in thickness hold fasts start acting up and not sticking. If you want some real fun flatten that top with hand planes. Most incredible workout I have ever had.
> 
> - controlfreak
> 
> ...


I completely handplaned mine. Its a workout with a metal plane. So I switched to a wood body transitional plane and it was 10 times easier.


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## Phil32 (Aug 31, 2018)

How can anyone determine the proper strength of the worksurface with no estimate of planned loads? You could test the workbench to destruction and then build another, but you would still have uncertainty.


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

> How can anyone determine the proper strength of the worksurface with no estimate of planned loads? You could test the workbench to destruction and then build another, but you would still have uncertainty.
> 
> - Phil32


What he said^^^^^^. Consider it good to go and address issues in the future when (and if) they show up.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> How can anyone determine the proper strength of the worksurface with no estimate of planned loads? You could test the workbench to destruction and then build another, but you would still have uncertainty.
> 
> - Phil32
> 
> ...


Just be sure to wear steel toed work boots if you go that route.


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

You are going to need some sort of support that will span the top most if not all the way, like a saw horse, anyway. That should keep a failure from crushing things that may not need flattening. I am no expert but assume you will want to add some stretchers to control racking and stiffen things up. You should also make a vise decision before attaching the top to the legs. Or you will need some help to be flipping that whole assembly over if you need to chisel a channel to receive the vise. I ended up using my top on saw horses so I could use it to help with leg construction.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

What are you parking on it, a semi or a tank? Nothing you can pick up yourself is going to stress that top. Relax.


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

Out of curiosity: why 35"?

Will Meyers about his Moravian workbench:
"The 13in wide top works out well too. I kind of had reservations about the narrow work surface but in use I have noticed that 99% of the time I am only working on the front six inches; so that concern was really unfounded. "

My workbench has a worktop about 12" and a tool well of the same size. As I (try to) work like Paul Sellers, most of the time I work in the vise.


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## jonah (May 15, 2009)

What's the downside of upper and lower stretchers? I'd at the very least connect the legs at each end to form two assemblies. You probably don't need a long upper stretcher, just a lower one.

That is going to be one heavy bench with that wide top. Make your legs beefy so it doesn't move when you pound on it.

The glue joints will be absolutely fine.


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

a 35" X 6' top made of 2X4 is quite heavy and will not move, even on skinny legs (see the Scandinavian workbenches).

about mass


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## Moai (Feb 9, 2009)

my workbench has threaded rods closing the main top body, I have seen it in many benches (Sam Maloof for instance), that can prevent the laminated pieces going apart in a future.
I used to have a 4" thick, ROCK- HARD MAPLE top, about 50" long, without supporting stretchers, and it was ditching down before I sold that Bench. You need something to hold the top.


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

Agreed top stretchers not needed but bottom yes. On the horizontal I would do top and bottom with the top one supporting the benchtop.


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## ManySplinters (Sep 28, 2021)

> I m scared my workbench is going to fold in half like a taco the first time I tap it with a hammer…


Test it. It's wood and glue.. prop it up along the long edges, put a sacrificial scrap board in the middle, and smash it with a sledgehammer. If it breaks then clean it up and glue it back together.

And nobody would know (or care) if you put two stretchers between the legs anyways. It will still be a massive wonderful bench.

But if you feel that 35" may be a little wide, prop it up and just try to bust off 12". Be sure to post pictures!


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## m4778 (Jan 5, 2021)

> Out of curiosity: why 35"?
> 
> Will Meyers about his Moravian workbench:
> "The 13in wide top works out well too. I kind of had reservations about the narrow work surface but in use I have noticed that 99% of the time I am only working on the front six inches; so that concern was really unfounded. "
> ...


I have another bench I made that was 36in and I like it, but that wasn't for woodworking, and it was against a wall. I didn't realize that a bench could be too wide, but now after further research I see the problems with a wider bench. But I already made the top so now i'm going to go with it I think and i've learned a lesson for next time.


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## m4778 (Jan 5, 2021)

> What's the downside of upper and lower stretchers? I'd at the very least connect the legs at each end to form two assemblies. You probably don't need a long upper stretcher, just a lower one.
> 
> That is going to be one heavy bench with that wide top. Make your legs beefy so it doesn't move when you pound on it.
> 
> ...


I'd have to change my design and it is half built. There might be some modifications I can make to add short top stretchers but i'm not sure the best way to do it. And I have been trying to do this with only mortis and tenon joints and no bolts (except for the vises). Oh and also my end vise placement might be an issue with a stretcher on that end.


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## northwoodsman (Feb 22, 2008)

Squeeze out is is result of excess glue getting squeezed out of the joint. Perhaps you nailed it and had exactly the perfect amount needed. Think positive.

If you're losing sleep over it you could always cut in some 1" x 3" (actual size) supports on the bottom, perpendicular to the boards laminated together for the top. Glue and screw them in and use a very dense sturdy wood. I don't think threaded rods are a good option here since you would have to drill a 3' deep hole. Normally you would pre-drill each board so as you laminate them you slide them over the rod. This is a great idea however if you pre-plan to accommodate.


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

Adapt and customize, who knows, we all may want a M4778 bench one day!


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

On the Moravian workbench, there is no top left-right stretcher.
But there are top rails on the right and left leg frames.


















Even if you already have glued the low rail, it is possible to add an upper rail as shown.
(gudgeons to keep the work-top in place).



> [...] Oh and also my end vise placement might be an issue with a stretcher on that end.
> 
> - m4778


It is not mandatory to have the same cantilevers at right and left (see Scandinavian benches)


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

Hi Sylvain,

I noticed you skipped the mid rail or stretcher on the two ends. Just curious as to why?


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

useful trick to mate two boards:
sawing between the boards 
http://blog.douglasbrooksboatbuilding.com/2019/04/2019-bates-college-short-term.html 
see 2nd and 3rd pictures
More than one pass may be necessary.
Can also be done with a circular saw (for straight joints).

On nice thing about this technique is that it is not limited to straight joints.


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

> I noticed you skipped the mid rail or stretcher on the two ends. Just curious as to why?
> 
> - controlfreak


I thought it would not be necessary if I were using a lower rail with mortises and tenons.
On the original Moravian workbench examined by Will Myers, there are 3 rails on the left leg frame assembly only. As if it was a modification or maybe because the vise screw is through the leg and not through a backer board as we did.
see here

On my Paul Sellers workbench, there are no mid rail either.
The son (who has received the Moravian WB) will have to experience if I was right or not, but I am confident.


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## m4778 (Jan 5, 2021)

Just for information this is what my design is right now, where the front vise goes in the front left and end vise goes on the side right. I know it is a lot of dog holes, i'm not necessarily going to make them all, it was just an idea of the max I might want, and I figure i'll add them as I see fit.


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## m4778 (Jan 5, 2021)

I've read a few places that it is not a good idea to fasten top stretchers to the table top because the laminated top will grow and shrink with the seasons and it will grow in width much more than a horizontal stretcher will grow in length along the grain. This is another reason I was a bit afraid of upper stretchers.

But I guess I could add upper stretchers that are just floating in mortise pockets in the legs without attaching them to the top? Then the top could grow and shrink in width but the upper stretcher would still provide bottom support to the middle of the table.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

> I already made the top so now i m going to go with it I think and i ve learned a lesson for next time.
> 
> - m4778


I'd rip out the section / seam that is concerning you, joint the faces of the resultant pieces and re-glue AFTER ensuring they'll glue up closer to 24" vs. 35". What you've built, once the offending section is re-glued, it more that strong enough to span that size of workbench base.

Maybe use what you're removing from the top to make legs for the bench. But since you've read and established 35" isn't an optimal size for a top, don't live with it / call it a lesson for 'later.'

Good luck.


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## jonah (May 15, 2009)

The wood movement of the top is going to be primarily vertical, since the boards are on edge.

My workbench top has been lag screwed to its base for years. No issues.


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

On the Moravian workbench, the WB-top is kept in place by the two front gudgeons.
There are two other gudgeons which come in elongated holes in the WB-top as explained on page 20 of this document.
The elongated holes take care of expansion and contraction of the WB-top.

So the rails on the left and right leg-frames can be glued without problem.


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

If you change your mind, I mean making a WB about 24" deep you can rip your 35" top and have 3 options:
- make a WB with a top about 24" deep;
- make a WB wit a top about 12" deep and a tool well;
- make a WB with a split top about 24" deep;

In fact, if ripped, your top could be used for two WB: one with a tool well and one without a tool well; or even for three workbenches with tool well.

So if you make a base with top rails and 24" deep, you can experiment about what is best suited for you (tool well or no tool well).


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## AlanWS (Aug 28, 2008)

I suspect the joint you are worried about will hold fine. If you built the bench and it opened later, you could fix it then just as easily, so don't bother now. If it does fail, it will fail gradually, not catastrophically, unless you park a truck on it.

The thing I would think about is width. Wide benches work well as assembly tables that do not need the mass of a hand workbench, which benefits more (in my opinion) from being narrow enough to reach over. If you are worried about that joint, you could rip it apart and reassemble only enough to give you the width you choose (24"?), keeping the rest of the top for another purpose. You will find one.

I don't know what tools you have, but you may find ripping and cleaning up the edge of the top to be daunting. I would not put something of that size through the tablesaw, but would use a circular saw along a straightedge carefully positioned to cut halfway through from each face. A handplane would smooth the edge.


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

> I don t know what tools you have, but you may find ripping and cleaning up the edge of the top to be daunting. I would not put something of that size through the tablesaw, but would use a circular saw along a straightedge carefully positioned to cut halfway through from each face. A handplane would smooth the edge.
> 
> - AlanWS


Smoothing with a hand plane is possible but one need to plane straight and square to the face. 
Then if there is any discrepancy between the two edges one will need a lot of heavy duty clamps when regluing because each partial slab has nearly no elasticity.

Another way to proceed to mate the two slabs is what I have spoken about in the comment #27 hereabove.



> useful trick to mate two boards:
> sawing between the boards
> http://blog.douglasbrooksboatbuilding.com/2019/04/2019-bates-college-short-term.html
> see 2nd and 3rd pictures
> ...


Personally, I have no use for heavy duty clamps. This is one of the points where I don't follow Chris Schwarz: for the two worktop I did, I have glued the boards one by one. That way, there was enough elasticity in them.


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## m4778 (Jan 5, 2021)

I really don't want to rip up what i've already built as I don't have a jointer or large table saw to really piece it back together well (at least without a significant effort). I am usually the king of analysis paralysis and I fear if I attempt to rip apart stuff now i'll never get this thing completed.

I think what I am going to do is assume my glue joints are all solid and can support the table without upper stretchers, and if one of them does start to fail at some point i'll deal with it then. As someone said previously in the topic, re-working it then isn't going to be much more work than reworking it now, and it might not even be necessary.

I'm also going to stick with the 35in table for the time being. Again I don't want to go down the rabbit hole of disassembly, and honestly it might not be the worst thing to have one table I use both for working and as an assembly table.

Plus I'm 6'5" and i'm guessing most people recommending a 24in table are more average height with an average wingspan, so maybe the 35in top will work for me better than most. They probably didn't have many people my height in the Roubo/Moxon days…


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

We wish you success.


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## ManySplinters (Sep 28, 2021)

> I think what I am going to do is assume my glue joints are all solid and can support the table…


You probably noticed but not one reply from anyone here ever doubted this point. The suggestions where just ways to help you feel more confident with the top. 

Looking forward to seeing the projects that come off it.


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

When Will Myers says he uses most of the time the front 6 inches of the workbench, it is not because he is particularly short.
You can see his photo here:
Will Myers 
(for reference, the workbench on his right side is just under 3 foot high).

Go on with your project, my only regret about my workbench is to have procrastinated too long.


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

> When Will Myers says he uses most of the time the front 6 inches of the workbench, it is not because he is particularly short.
> 
> (for reference, the workbench on his right side is just under 3 foot high).
> 
> - Sylvain


I had a lot of anxiety over the height, 1st knuckle, 2nd etc. and ended up making the same height as my SawStop jobsite saw. That way it not only could act as an outfeed table but also wouldn't be an table saw obstruction in my small shop. I can remember what that height is but it works for me.


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