# Considering but hesitating on pocket screws...could it lead to woodworking skill stagnation?



## paxorion (Oct 19, 2012)

*Context:* During my short woodworking journey, I have seen the pocket screw craze take a considerable foothold in the online woodworking community. It seems like half of the woodworking build themed YouTube videos that I find features pocket holes as the primary form of joinery. While I in no way question that it is a perfectly valid form of joinery to meet a specific scenario (speed and convenience at the cost of appearance that could be hidden), such as say in a production environment where it can be used to build face frames or drawer boxes with a false front. This speed and convenience is no doubt the reason why hobbyist have adopted pocket screws so profusely.

*My Dilemma:* Convenience in my mind (and experience), often leads to complacency. I personally have yet to adopt pocket screws because I believe that they may end up becoming a skill building barrier for me. More specifically, I am worried that it will become enough to encourage the procrastinator in me to NOT push myself in upcoming projects. This is exacerbated by the predicament I find myself in, where the number of project I have promised my wife and children are growing faster than my rate of churning them out. Meaning in order to deliver and knock out these projects, I find myself considering (and flip flopping) on pocket screws as a joinery option. Truthfully, I think the only reason I haven't pulled the trigger, is because I'm too cheap to buy the jig.

*My Question:* I am curious to hear the opinions and experiences of the LJ community. While I'm fairly sure that I will (eventually) incorporate pocket screws into some of my upcoming projects (so that is not my question), I am curious if others share my sentiment about pocket screws (or any other tools/jigs/solutions that promise convenience). Could it (or has it) become a skill-building road block, and if so, what are some tips and ways to remind myself to not settle for less when it comes to challenging myself to grow as a woodworker (i.e. anyone care to give me a preemptive pep talk ;-))?


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## Rayne (Mar 9, 2014)

As a beginner, I found Pocket Screws to be an amazingly easy way to ease into woodworking. I built my Media Cabinet and Entertainment center using pocket screws. They were my first real major project and since then I have learned additional skills that pushes me to do more with joinery. My latest project uses 0 pocket screws, which is my custom workbench (although that may change when I start adding drawers). I have no issues using them, but also found ways to push myself to learn new techniques without their use. My 2 cents worth.


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## RichardHillius (Oct 19, 2013)

There are enough places where pocket hole joinery isn't ideal that I don't know if you really have that much to worry about. I would never use them on drawers and door's for instance or anything that you might see both faces of the joint. Even cabinets with open shelves will show the pockets hole's in them. Sure they have plugs but by the time you add them with the trimming and making flush how much time over other joinery methods do you really save?

I built two end tables and a dresser with pocket holes as the primary joinery method when I first got my pocket hole jig just to see what it was capable of and since than I haven't used it a ton. It's not a bad joinery method although loose tenons especially like the domino machine are probably even more flexible but it's not a end all be all of joinery either.

I'm getting ready to build a painted pantry cabinet with open shelves and I considered pocket hole's for the rails and stiles with plugs before painting but I am not sure I want to deal with plugs even on a painted piece. I am worried no matter what I do the outline of them will bleed though the paint. I did find myself considering a domino but luckily that thing is so expensive it gives me a good deal of pause.


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## bruc101 (Sep 13, 2008)

In our commercial shop we use pocket screws only for face frames and nothing else. All drawers are dovetailed, side panels to face frames mortice and tenon only.

I've always thought putting drawers together with pocket screws is a cheap and lazy way out and or lack of woodworking skills to build drawers.

A master cabinet maker told me one time you're either a woodworker or a box builder.


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## DIYaholic (Jan 28, 2011)

1) Use them for shop jigs & fixtures.
2) Use them for utilitarian projects.
3) DON'T use them for heirloom family treasures…. unless truly appropriate.
4) DON'T use them in excess!!!

Antiques have been made with pocket hole joinery….
Use them "sparingly".... then again, out of sight, out of mind!!!


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## NiteWalker (May 7, 2011)

I don't consider pocket screw joinery "cheating", but I do understand where you're coming from.
One of my very first projects some years back was a bookcase made of MDF and assembled with pocket screws (painted light pink for my two daughters). It's still holding up just fine, but I don't like it at all. I see every little error and feel I could have done much better.

So while I won't use pcoket screw joinery for most things, where I do use it now I feel no quarrel with it whatsoever.
Examples; The small cherry spice rack I recently made (in my projects) was assembled with pocket screws. It was small, I don't consider it "fine" furniture by any means, and I wanted to get it done in a day. So I'm ok with pocket screws in that instance.

Other places I don't mind pocket hole screws:
- Shop projects or utility builds.
- Attaching nailers to cabinets (one of the instances where pocket hole joinery really shines).
- Face frames, though I don't use many face frames in my woodworking.
- Prototype projects; I recently built an outdoor sitting bench out of scrap 2×4's and pocket screws. Now with the dimensions and everything sorted out, I'll be using the festool domino (more on that in a bit) for the real benches, made of cypress or redwood, or whatever outdoor wood I come across at at the best price.

Drawers, however, I'd not use pocket hole joinery for.
I prefer a tongue and dado joint. For me it just works better.

Now on to what you said about skill building road blocks; there's no law that says you have to learn every woodworking technique known to man. ;-)
I prefer to be a more efficient woodworker than one that knows absolutely everything there is to know about woodworking. Case in point; pretty soon I'll be making a cherry chest of drawers for my bedroom. The drawers will be soft maple joined by dovetails at the fronts and a plain dado at the back. While cutting all the dovetails by hand is a possibility, I'd much rather do it with my dovetail jig for the sake of efficiency.

And that brings me to the domino; now that I have one, I'll probably use it for 95% of my M&T joints. It's just as strong as traditional M&T joints, but a lot faster. The recipients of the outdoor benches I mentioned earlier won't care how it's put together, so long as it doesn't fall apart in use.

Now, even with all these fancy toys, there's nothing stopping you from becoming proficient in traditional methods.
I just prefer efficiency.


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## TravisH (Feb 6, 2013)

I think it just depends on what ones goals are in building something. It is only a skill building road block if one allows it to be. Some guys aren't necessarily into wood working because they want to learn traditional craftsmanship. For some they can't master other joinery methods so it allows them to still make things. For some the ease of use trumps anything else. They just like to make things to make the wife or friends happy. Construction methods aren't important to them as the finished project is the end goal. If it functions as a table, no matter how rudimentary the construction, it fits their goal of building a table.

I received a Kreg kit a few years ago and haven't used it yet. I think it was over a year before I even opened it. I have no issues with it, just haven't really built anything I cared to use it for. I wouldn't use it on something I was trying to build that I considered quality furniture as it just does not fit my perception. I also feel anyone could use a pocket hole jig and have success, that is what makes it so great, but it would be about the least satisfying method for me to use. I plan on building some of those weekend bookcases for the boys rooms and figured it will get broke in on that build.


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## emart (Mar 16, 2011)

I have used pocket screws in the past when I had access to a pocket hole jig. there are uses for them so long as the screws themselves aren't really used for structural support as the joints are not very strong. If you want a permanent joint dowels, splines, or biscuit joints are very strong and just as easy to do with jogs and machinery. pocket holes are good for parts that may need to be disassembled at some point since you just have to undo the screws.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

You might want to get a good dowel jig. Dowels are
easy to work with and provide dead-on positioning.

Mortise and tenon is seldom an essential joint. It's
important to use them in seating in my view, but 
for most other applications dowels are fine.

Pocket screws leave ugly holes. Of course they have
their uses. You don't need a jig to drill a pocket screw
hole either. It can be done in a pinch with a 7/16" 
spade bit with spurs. The bit is started straight and
then turned once the point is engaged. The holes
are not as consistent as you'd get from a jig, but 
the method is just as strong, imo.


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## pintodeluxe (Sep 12, 2010)

I wouldn't worry about it. I use pocket joinery where appropriate, but I still use mortise and tenon, lapped dovetails, half-blind dovetails and finger joints. I wouldn't build a project entirely with pocket holes (it's hard to conceal all the holes), but used selectively, pocket holes are great.

I recommend the Kreg Jr. kit to get started.


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## EEngineer (Jul 4, 2008)

I don't own a pocket hole jig and I don't used pocket screws. I really think they are ugly. And in the places where I see them used, I have always had other choices.

Drawers - oh, hell no! Dadoes and rabbet joints with good glue give the best results. If I have one, I will clamp it and let it dry overnight. If I have a lot of them to do, I will pin the joints with an 18 gauge brad nailer rather than use every clamp in the shop. I have a silverware drawer (always one of the most heavily loaded drawers in the kitchen) that I rebuilt in an afternoon using this simple method and it is still nice and tight after 25 years of hard use. Dovetails are for effetes.

Face frames - I really prefer dowels. A drill press to keep them nice and square and dowel centers to transfer the position to the opposing piece seems to me at least to take less time and setup than pocket screws. Again, good glue will result in a joint that lasts forever. I have used biscuits here successfully but that takes a dedicated expensive tool and I just never saw the need to pop for one.

Shelves - again, hell no! Pocket screws won't hold up. Dadoes and glue.

Carcass builds - light duty, dadoes and rabbets with glue. Heavy duty, mortise and tenon pinned with dowels and glue.

I really don't like to depend on screws for structural integrity at all.


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## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

Like others have said, there are places for pocket hole screws and joinery and places not to use them.

I built all of the cabinets in my shop using plywood and pocket hole screws. I even made the drawers with pocket screws. The drawers are very strong and work great and were a time saver. The cabinet boxes were also put together with pocket screws. The drawers and cabinets were made about 4 years ago and heavily loaded and no failures or any problems at all. The cabinet doors were made in a traditional way.

I still use other joinery which is more traditional for furniture.


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## hairy (Sep 23, 2008)

Who remembers the pocket hole jig Norm used on the New Yankee Workshop? It was as big as his tablesaw. 2 levers, 1 for the pocket and 1 for the hole.

I watched Scott Phillips build a cabinet with so many pocket holes I thought that it actually weakened it.


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## stnich (May 24, 2010)

Obviously pocket screws have there time and place. I use mine regularly. I worked form a trim carpentry
crew a few years ago where we pocket screwed miter joints on casing for windows and doors. absolutely
indestructible, perfect miters every time. The trim was mostly flat stock with a bead on the inside and a back band added on the outside. With the addition of glue to the miters the joint was incredible. I also use them for face frames, jigs and other applications. I make props for studio work and they are great for that too. Personally I wouldn't be without them with how versatile they are.


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## paxorion (Oct 19, 2012)

Sounds like I am not alone in my sentiment. Pocket holes have their "place", and it looks like there are many opinions as to what is is that "place". The line that resonates most with me is this… 


> I think it just depends on what ones goals are in building something. It is only a skill building road block if one allows it to be….
> 
> - TravisH


Sounds like the woodworking existential question for me, is whether or not I am going to take on projects by choice and not by request (or maybe one day commission). I know that one is more inclined to push themselves if they feel ownership on the project. For me, that comes if I know I picked the project on my own, or a skill/technique I want to try out and then a project that highlights it), as opposed to a project for someone else.


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## timbertailor (Jul 2, 2014)

I am old school and most of my clients like old school building techniques and are willing to pay for it.

I never use pocket screws in any of my work that is custom.

I only use pocket screws for painted or plywood projects or projects that are for my own personal use, like my router table which I do not consider furniture.

Is the pocket screw strong enough for all sorts of work? I think so.

As others have said, they have their place but I rarely use them. I have a dedicated mortiser that is custom built to make the task much easier. Tenons I do on the tables saw, and more recently, on the router table. Almost always involves a face frame. I also own a biscuit jointer and I use it a lot when strength is needed and when a board needs straightening, usually a cheap piece of plywood for inside a carcass.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

It's a great technique to use to build things quick like maybe a jig for the shop that's not going to get much use or maybe will be used temporary. I'm glad to have my jig for this reason. At the plant we had to make quick jigs for a lot of things like this so we had the Kreg tools there as well. Obviously there are also a lot of people who use them for face frames as well as connecting table tops to cabinets, tables, and book cases. Think about if you needed several bookcases just to store some random things in a basement or storage shed. In all kinds of situations the Kreg jigs can make a lot of sense. I guess that's why they are so popular.

Another situation that I can think of is a young couple that just got married, has little money saved up, and has no furniture for a new household. A resourceful person could build a whole collection of furniture that could serve the purpose for a small apartment. After a few years it's discarded for something better.

helluvawreck aka Charles
http://woodworkingexpo.wordpress.com


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

There's a time a place for every tool.


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## johnstoneb (Jun 14, 2012)

Pocket screws have there place and have been around since screws were invented. I restored a secretary with large bookcase (in the family for well over 100 years old). It was built with dovetails, handcut nails, dados, and pocket screws. The methods of joinery were used where they were most appropriate. As the above contributors have said, pocket screws are great for attaching face frames, table tops to frames. I have seen them used to attach corner blocks to chairs. Every joinery method has a place where it is strongest and works best and places where they are not appropriate. Pocket screw are no different.


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## InstantSiv (Jan 12, 2014)

Don't worry about it. Hurry up and get a pocket hole jig. There's a reason why it's wildly popular.

You'll learn real quick that some joints just aren't worth the extra time and effort, that's where the pocket hole shines. It's quick and easy allowing you more time to focus on other areas.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

I have less than $150 in my Kreg stuff. It's paid for itself several times over so I don't have a dime in it and it's still like brand new. It only takes up a little of my drawer space. Ain't life grand? ;-|

helluvawreck aka Charles
http://woodworkingexpo.wordpress.com


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## distrbd (Sep 14, 2011)

> Don t worry about it. Hurry up and get a pocket hole jig. There s a reason why it s wildly popular.
> 
> You ll learn real quick that some joints just aren t worth the extra time and effort, that s where the pocket hole shines. It s quick and easy allowing you more time to focus on other areas.
> 
> - InstantSiv


Agree 100%,there are occasions when you do not want screws,nails,pins etc. to show and mortise & tenons,dowels will not work,that's when using a pocket hole jig will be the best route to go.


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## NormG (Mar 5, 2010)

I agree with all the above, I do not build custom furniture for a living, I do use tenons for chairs. I use biscuits, dado's and rabbit joints as they are needed. I also have a doweling jig,that was a good purchase from HF (it was dead on out of the box and has remained so). I am fortunate enough to have decent tools that meet my needs and a wife who lets me purchase new ones

I fall under the area of a household craftsman I suppose. I learned from my father and when I was in school we have a program called industrial arts. Covered electronics, welding machine shop, woodworking. Watch here for what others are doing and have done, learn from their posts and use as a guide.

Have fun and your skills will build


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## bowedcurly (Aug 31, 2013)

Pocket Holes are great for lowend or quick work, I likem


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## bigblockyeti (Sep 9, 2013)

I use them where it make sense to, particularly in the assembly of face frames. I don't think you're in any danger of becoming too reliant on the technology, it's just another way of doing something that can be used extensively or sparingly depending on what you're trying to accomplish.


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## JAAune (Jan 22, 2012)

If you build a lot of jigs then a pocket hole setup is a major time-saver. We use them for that purpose and for face frames. Occasionally they are used to hold tops to an apron which is a very traditional use for the joint. We'll only do this however, if there are no expansion/contraction issues to consider.


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## huff (May 28, 2009)

paxiorn,

I don't think you have to worry that using pocket screws will be a skill blocker. Woodworking is a life long journey of learning so using pocket screws in it's proper application will just be one more chapter in your woodworking experience.

Whether you believe they make a strong joint and can be used in many ways or you decide they are a cheap and fast way to build something will be up to you after you have used them.

Each woodworker will try different tools or techniques over the years and some of those tools or techniques will be used over and over and some will collect dust, but that will depend on the woodworker and what they prefer.

I've used pocket screws in some pretty creative ways, but I've also pushed myself to learn other techniques for joinery also.

Just have fun, build things and try to learn something new on every project you do and you will continue to improve your woodworking skills.


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## NiteWalker (May 7, 2011)

> Who remembers the pocket hole jig Norm used on the New Yankee Workshop? It was as big as his tablesaw. 2 levers, 1 for the pocket and 1 for the hole.


Porter cable 552. It's a great machine, and if one came up for sale around me I'd be very tempted. Not quite as big as a table saw; more around the size of a portable planer.


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## paxorion (Oct 19, 2012)

Lots of good thoughts. Different views certainly are popping up, but it sounds like most of you share my sentiment. Glad that I am not alone in my viewpoint.

Now I wonder when I will have a reason to actually pull the trigger…


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## Lifesaver2000 (Nov 17, 2009)

I don't really have an opinion to offer, but just want to relate a possibly relevnt story.

When I met my wife many years ago, her parents had a nice, solid looking coffee table in their living room. While obviously factory built it did not appear cheap or flimsy. Over the years it stood up to many grandchildren and still remained solid.

A couple years ago my daughter was moving into her own first apartment, and the inlaws decided she could use that old table since they didn't really need it any more with a new layout in their living room. When I turned it over to move it, I realized it was constructed entirely using pocket screw joinery. Up to that point I had had no idea. (No, I don't crawl under every piece of furniture I see.)

Take from this story what you will.


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## todd1962 (Oct 23, 2013)

I built this using some pocket screws, even on the drawers. Guess I'm lazy.


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