# Jointer use



## Geeyo (Aug 16, 2017)

I would like to get opinions on whether I should buy a jointer table. I have been planning for a while now to pick up a jointer and I've had my eyes set on a 8"x72" jointer table from grizzly. Just something with a knife cutterhead instead of a helical head for now so it will be a bit cheaper. But I talked myself out of it a few times since I am able to somewhat work with the tools I currently own. I dont do much fine woodworking just yet since I just started with the hobby. I can get away with using not so perfect lumber with my projects so i normally go to the big box stores for my wood. But eventually I would like to get to more intricate work given more time to practice. My question is, should I still invest in the jointer table now? Or is it not worth it since I mainly use big box stores lumber? I generally buy pine, fur, maple and oak lumbers. I've also seen tabletop jointers which are a bit cheaper but I'm not sure how stable those jointers are especially when I'm using bigger and longer pieces.

Thanks for the advice!


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## nickbatz (Mar 7, 2018)

Most people, me included, use the jointer to flatten one edge of a board perfectly so it matches up with another board when you're edge-joining them to make larger panels (for table tops, for example). The kind of wood doesn't matter; you need to make the edges perfectly flat before gluing them together, because even a tiny gap will show, and the glue won't adhere as well.

But you can also use a router table or a table saw to do that if almost just as well as a jointer. It's why router tables have split fences - so you can do the same thing you do on a jointer, only sideways. And there are a few ways to do it on a table saw.

This is a good explanation.

I should add that the only reason I bought a jointer is that it was a really cool vintage one that I saw on Craigslist for very little, not because it was a must-have.


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## Ocelot (Mar 6, 2011)

In addition to truing edges, an important use of the jointer is flattening the faces of boards that are cupped, twisted or otherwise distorted. Making one flat face and then a perpendicular straight edge prepares the lumber to be planed and ripped to width. It makes a lot of difference - and is almost indispensable when using rough-cut lumber.


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## mel52 (Sep 4, 2017)

I've wanted a jointer for quite a while but use a split fence router table. So far the router table has done a good job for me, and am reluctant to invest in something I really don't need. Mel


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## nickbatz (Mar 7, 2018)

> In addition to truing edges, an important use of the jointer is flattening the faces of boards that are cupped, twisted or otherwise distorted. Making one flat face and then a perpendicular straight edge prepares the lumber to be planed and ripped to width. It makes a lot of difference - and is almost indispensable when using rough-cut lumber.
> 
> - Ocelot


Geeyo goes to big box stores for wood.

I go to a lumber yard that only sells S2S wood and will joint it for you if you ask. But I'm curious - is rough-cut lumber a lot cheaper? As far as I know it just doesn't come that way in Los Angeles, but I could be wrong (and haven't investigated every lumber yard in search of it).


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Yesterday, my friend was over and wanted me to cut 1/4" pieces for back scratchers he wanted to make. I jointed both sides of a 4/4 pieces of wood, made two cuts, then ran those edges a single pass on the same jointer you are thinking of buying [but with a spiral head]. I repeated this until he had several future back scratchers.

Running the edges through the jointer meant he had half as much sanding to do.

I find a lot of free wood. That includes apple and cherry, since I live in orchard country (Eastern Wash.). The jointer greatly speeds up making the wood usable. That includes giving my planer a jumping off point. I cannot imagine tackling the wood I get with a hand plane.


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## unclearthur (Jul 4, 2013)

I've always found that taking a rough, warped piece of wood, and in a few minutes on the jointer / planer / tablesaw turning it into something perfectly square and smooth that you can make things out of …. to be one of the joys of woodworking.


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## ChefHDAN (Aug 7, 2010)

If you're not in an urgent need of a jointer or any tool for that matter, keep an eye on Craigslist & FB marketplace. It's amazing what will come up for sale in great condition for about half of MSRP. I've never really heard anyone rave about how much they love their bench top jointer. I suppose if most of your work was making boxes or small items a BT would work. I have the Ridgid jointer (grey era) that I bought NIB for $200. It is generally all I need for my projects, occasionally I need more than the 6" capacity, but the porkchop can be removed so I can get 6" of the face flat and then I use another flat 5" piece hot glued to the other board and get the opposite side true in my planer, then flip the board, knock off the 5" piece and take the lip off and totally flatten the other side. A bit more work to get a wide board flat, but it's not too often.

As for the costs of rough sawn lumber, here's my sawyers monthly sale list from Southern MD here on the right coast.


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## GrantA (Jul 19, 2014)

I wish location was a required field for forum registration grrr
*Geeyo* where are you located? I've got a couple 8" jointers to sell in South GA.


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## Brawler (Nov 12, 2018)

Well I'm pretty new to woodworking and I didn't think I would need a jointer. However someone gave me 6" one in kinda rough shape. I restored it, adjusted and tuned it. I have to say, it sure is nice working with perfectly flat and straight lumber. I find it a pretty valuable piece of equipment, now I wish I had an 8" jointer.


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

I scored a 6" craftsman jointer for $150 at an estate sale and a stanley Bailey plane for $25. I de-rusted both and put some new blades on the jointer and it fits my shop well. I can't move up in size until I get a bigger shop however if the right one comes along I may jump on it and store it at my office until a bigger shop comes along.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

In my Humble OPINION get your self a jointer. The wider the better. The first step is flattening the face of a board before you edge joint. This pretty much insures not only a straight edge but one that is square to the face.


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## nickbatz (Mar 7, 2018)

> As for the costs of rough sawn lumber, here s my sawyers monthly sale list from Southern MD here on the right coast.
> 
> - ChefHDAN


It's a lot more here.

I pay somewhere around $5.50/board' for S2S red oak at House of Hardwood in West Los Angeles. They weren't the cheapest place in town when I checked a few months ago, but it wasn't a massive difference and they have a good selection.

Plus I have a long relationship with them - they used to make the custom composer's desks I sell for me, before I got the bug to do it myself.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Nice score, Daniel



> Well I m pretty new to woodworking and I didn t think I would need a jointer. However someone gave me 6" one in kinda rough shape. I restored it, adjusted and tuned it. I have to say, it sure is nice working with perfectly flat and straight lumber. I find it a pretty valuable piece of equipment, now I wish I had an 8" jointer.
> 
> - Brawler


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## MPython (Nov 30, 2018)

A powered jointer is one half of the essential jointer/planer combination. You won't get very far into woodworking before you realize that having four-square stock is critical to precise work. Four-square means both faces flat and parallel to each other and the edges square with the faces. A powered jointer gives one flat face and square edges. It takes a planer to give you parallel faces, so you need both machines. With these two machines, you can turn rough sawn lumber into precisely dimensioned four-square stock and clean up warped and twisted boards easily.

You can get to four-square with hand planes, but it requires a fair amount of skill and endurance (hand planing can be hard work). Craftsmen did it this way for hundreds of years before electric power tools became common. All of the famous classic 18th and 19th Century furniture was built with hand tools. Hand planes are a lot cheaper than powered jointers and planers, and are, actually, a lot more accurate in skilled hands. But, unlike powered machines, they take a while to master. Most serious woodworkers these days are what are referred to as "blended" woodworkers, I.E., they use both power tools and hand tools - power tools for dimensioning stock and hand tools for accuracy and fine tuning.

If you're not into learning to use hand tools at this point in your woodworking career, then you will need a jointer AND a planer, sooner rather than later. As mentioned in an earlier post, wider is better. Flattening a 12" wide board accurately is not easily accomplished on a 6" jointer, if it is possible at all. Wide jointers are expensive. If you're building small projects, you can probably get away with a 6" jointer, but it will limit what you can do. Many fine woodworkers find an 8" jointer perfectly adequate. The extra 2" makes a lot of difference. A 10" or a 12" jointer is even better. But again these get into serious $$$.

I have always subscribed too the idea that it's better to buy the best tool you can afford rather than buying something cheap and marginally adequate until you can afford something better. Cheap, stop-gap purchases have a way of becoming long term shop residents and objects of many four-letter diatribes. The used market is probably the best source of good quality equipment, often at bargain prices. My advice is to start saving your $$$ now and keep your eye on Craigslist, eBay and any other sources you have for a good used 8" jointer and a complimentary planer. You won't regret spending a little more than you wanted to spend on these essential machines.

My $.02


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> A powered jointer is one half of the essential jointer/planer combination. You won t get very far into woodworking before you realize that having four-square stock is critical to precise work. Four-square means both faces flat and parallel to each other and the edges square with the faces. A powered jointer gives one flat face and square edges. It takes a planer to give you parallel faces, so you need both machines. With these two machines, you can turn rough sawn lumber into precisely dimensioned four-square stock and clean up warped and twisted boards easily.
> 
> You can get to four-square with hand planes, but it requires a fair amount of skill and endurance (hand planing can be hard work). Craftsmen did it this way for hundreds of years before electric power tools became common. All of the famous classic 18th and 19th Century furniture was built with hand tools. Hand planes are a lot cheaper than powered jointers and planers, and are, actually, a lot more accurate in skilled hands. But, unlike powered machines, they take a while to master. Most serious woodworkers these days are what are referred to as "blended" woodworkers, I.E., they use both power tools and hand tools - power tools for dimensioning stock and hand tools for accuracy and fine tuning.
> 
> ...


Well said.


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## nickbatz (Mar 7, 2018)

I'm not disagreeing in the least with anything you say, MPython, but "getting far into woodworking" is subjective.

Not everyone - me included - is above buying boards from a lumber yard that are already square. I have nothing but respect for people who emphasize craftsmanship for its own sake, but I'm personally more interested in creativity than runaway professionalism. 

So my view is that just decent powered hand tools can get you far into woodworking (not that I don't have big, loud, manly toys and covet more!).


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## nickbatz (Mar 7, 2018)

By the way, what's a good/fast/cheap thickness planer to buy?


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> By the way, what's a good/fast/cheap thickness planer to buy?
> 
> 
> 
> - nickbatz


It's rare that good/fast/cheap go together. It's also rare that I've bought an S4S board that truly flat, straight and square. Most of the them move some sitting in a rack waiting to be purchased.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> As for the costs of rough sawn lumber, here s my sawyers monthly sale list from Southern MD here on the right coast.
> 
> - ChefHDAN
> 
> ...


The thing about ruff-cutt lumber is the not just about the cost, it's about control.


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## pintodeluxe (Sep 12, 2010)

You should get a jointer if you want to start each project with straight, square lumber.

Whether you're using rough lumber or surfaced lumber, you'll need a jointer. There's nothing like flattening lumber right when you need it, and having the project easily come out square.


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

I agree get a jointer so you don't have to rely on the lumber yards. 
If you don't we might think your scared or something and call you a chicken.


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## therealSteveN (Oct 29, 2016)

Has that Chicken been jogging? Or is that just a fashion statement. 

By all means, TS, Jointer, and Planer are a must IMHO.


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## nickbatz (Mar 7, 2018)

I do have a jointer, but I'm also a chicken.

And yes, I know good/fast/cheap don't go together.

But actually - to hijack the thread even more - are there any planers that have one end open so you can do one side and then flip it and do the other (i.e. to sand things like tabletops)? Seems unlikely, based on the videos I've seen of them working, but that would make it even more useful.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> Has that Chicken been jogging? Or is that just a fashion statement.
> 
> By all means, TS, Jointer, and Planer are a must IMHO.
> 
> - therealSteveN


I think that chicken is auditioning for a KFC commercial


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## MPython (Nov 30, 2018)

> I do have a jointer, but I m also a chicken.
> 
> And yes, I know good/fast/cheap don t go together.
> 
> ...


https://charleston.craigslist.org/tls/d/summerville-craftsman-planer/7008630441.html


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> I do have a jointer, but I m also a chicken.
> 
> And yes, I know good/fast/cheap don t go together.
> 
> ...


A number of companies make double sided planers


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## GrantA (Jul 19, 2014)

AG he's talking about an open ended model like a drum sander, say a 8" planer that could do 16" of work in 2 passes. I think that's a terrible idea, even relatively straight grained woods often have a preferred direction, turn it backwards and boom there goes a chunk of it


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## Pezking7p (Nov 17, 2013)

I have a 6" grizzly jointer. It's old. I bought it with a mobile base off CL for about $250. *It is the hardest working piece of equipment in my shop. *

I would buy an inexpensive, used 6" jointer (no bench tops models) and save your cash for other tools if you are just getting started. Unless you plan to be making projects that you need to flatten 8" wide boards, a 6" planer can accommodate almost all needs.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

On tool purchases, it's been said it's better to wait and save your money than to upgrade. Like a good majority of the statements we LumberJocks make, one size does not fit all.

Once upon a time, I had an okay shop. Events in my life were such that I sold it, rather than eat the tool and equipment value in storage costs. Years down the road, and even more broke, I couldn't afford much, but felt compelled to get back to sawdust making. Rather than save a few years, until I could afford an okay saw, or several years, until I could afford another cabinet saw, I bought a Harbor Freight disposable bench saw.

I knew, going in, the HF bench saw was disposable, and that I couldn't trust the fence 1/10,000,000 as far as I could throw it. However, it left me some money to buy other tools that, also, would need upgrading, but that were sorely needed, if I wanted to do anything in the way of wood work.

Fifteen years later, that table saw has been in a landfill for ten years. It was upgraded to a nice, left tilt cabinet saw with a Jet kick down outfeed, a Merlin splitter, and Excaliber over-arm guard-dust collector and all sorts of accessories (e.g., Incra box jig, Grizzly mortiser, sleds, long piece cut offs, aux. fences, dados, etc.). It is accompanied by a PM and Rikon's 14" bandsaw, a Bosch miter, saber and a few of their drills, a Jet spindle, a PM drum-disk, a Flatmaster, a couple Festool variable speed ROS.s, several other belt and pad sanders, a Radio Carver, a Fox over-arm-spindle . . . . The point is, those early tools made get the tools that came later possible.

My first jointer was a Craftsman 4". It is what the "Live and learn" thing is all about. It, really, was a "Don't waste your money" tool. The 6" Craftsman was a LITTLE better and the PM 6" version so much better it may not be fair to compare the two. Then there's the 8" with a spiral head. A Grizzly. It makes me wonder what the PM is like. It's a game changer, BUT a GOOD six inch would be nothing to sniff at, until you're trying to do long pieces.

My equipment got used for part time handyman work and that grew the collection of toys/tools relatively quick. Now I have a hobby shop where I can copper plate wood turnings, cut, route and polish granite, build a new power supply for a plastic bender, or even do a bit of woodwork. And my wife got a kitchen out of it and a couple bedroom do-overs.

In short, start where you have to, but as high up as you, reasonably, can. And do it the best way that suits your situation.


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## nickbatz (Mar 7, 2018)

> On tool purchases, it s been said it s better to wait and save your money than to upgrade. snip
> 
> In short, start where you have to, but as high up as you, reasonably, can. And do it the best way that suits your situation.
> 
> - Kelly


How I got started a 2-1/2 years ago:

I have a side-side business making custom desks for composers. For years I had a shop make them for me from my detailed drawings, until a couple of years ago a customer challenged me to bring the price down and I figured I'd try making one myself; it looked easy enough.

Of course it wasn't.  But that's how I got the bug.

Anyway, I made the first one using only hand-held power tools - because that's what I had. I did have to break down and buy a new circular saw, because my old one was frozen at one depth. But you use what you have.

And it came out great!

Now I have all the stuff except a thickness planer. That includes a really cool 6" Davis & Wells cyberpunk-looking jointer I bought from a guy who restores them for fun.


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## nickbatz (Mar 7, 2018)

> AG he s talking about an open ended model like a drum sander, say a 8" planer that could do 16" of work in 2 passes. I think that s a terrible idea, even relatively straight grained woods often have a preferred direction, turn it backwards and boom there goes a chunk of it
> 
> - GrantA


That's right, like a drum sander. I was thinking it would be a useful tool to level edge-joined (not jointed, I mean glued) desktops. The ones I make are typically 20" - 24" deep, and I just use a random-orbit sander to do that, but I was thinking it could work like Timesaver on the cheap.

Apparently not.



> I do have a jointer, but I m also a chicken.
> 
> And yes, I know good/fast/cheap don t go together.
> 
> ...


That's a skyscraper. I'm looking at dog houses.


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## nickbatz (Mar 7, 2018)

> I do have a jointer, but I m also a chicken.
> 
> And yes, I know good/fast/cheap don t go together.
> 
> ...


That's interesting, but I think it looks like a jointer more than a thickness planer?

Thanks for the replies. Sorry to hijack the thread and make it about myself rather than Geeyo.


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## nickbatz (Mar 7, 2018)

Whose grandmother was it who said only a poor workman blames his tools?

Well, she was wrong. You need lots more tools always.


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## GrantA (Jul 19, 2014)

> I was thinking it could work like Timesaver on the cheap.
> 
> Apparently not.
> -nickbatz


Ain't but one thing gonna work like a Timesaver 
Man I can't wait to get this up and running!


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## whitedogone (Jul 13, 2012)

> I ve always found that taking a rough, warped piece of wood, and in a few minutes on the jointer / planer / tablesaw turning it into something perfectly square and smooth that you can make things out of …. to be one of the joys of woodworking.
> 
> - unclearthur


Me as well. A lot of product that gets sold out of my shop is lumber that I felled the tree, milled the lumber, jointed face and one edge and planed parallel face. In addition to being very satisfying, it supports my need for cheap or free wood and pays for some of my equipment cost. it also provides other WWer's wood for a lot cheaper than BB stores.


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## nickbatz (Mar 7, 2018)

Nice, GrantA.

whitedogone, they arrest you for felling trees in Los Angeles.

That's why God created lumber yards that sell S2S wood.


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## MPython (Nov 30, 2018)

> https://charleston.craigslist.org/tls/d/summerville-craftsman-planer/7008630441.html
> 
> - MPython
> 
> ...


nickbatz, have you ever actually seen a jointer?


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

Jet makes a "10 jointer/planer combo machine. I think that they also or at least used to have an 8" version too. When I looked at it several years ago, the reviews were pretty awful but perhaps they have fixed the problems by now?

I've seen a bunch of machines available in Europe that are combination machines but I have rarely seen them available in the US and when I have, they tend to be expensive.


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## Bill_Steele (Aug 29, 2013)

I would suggest that you DO NOT buy a jointer at this time. The reasons for not buying a jointer at this time are:

(1) You don't do much fine woodworking just yet since you just started with the hobby. 
(2) You can get away with using not so perfect lumber with your projects and you normally go to the big box store for your wood.

When you decide you want to use rough lumber or get more serious about the hobby then you should consider buying a jointer. Why spend the money now for a tool that you may not use often? If you buy a jointer now it is likely to just sit and not really be used a lot. It sure would be tough to look over at an expensive tool that you don't really need just sitting there taking up space in your shop and knowing how much money you spent on it.

You can joint boards by hand with a hand plane or with a jig using your table saw or circular saw.


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

I bought a used jointer and got it cleaned and tuned up on the cheap. I have only used it once to build my Moxon Vise so yes I really didn't need it. That said I bumped into a retired woodworker in Lowes one day and he said he would make me a good deal on some hardwood that he bought from another retired woodworker twenty or more years ago. I can't wait to see what he has now that I can work with it. I had to do one before the other. With any luck I will buy the wood and realize I need a bigger jointer.


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## nickbatz (Mar 7, 2018)

> https://charleston.craigslist.org/tls/d/summerville-craftsman-planer/7008630441.html
> 
> - MPython
> 
> ...


I own one, and I get that this tool is different. Sorry, I should have chosen my words more carefully to say that it looks like it functions more like a jointer.

But I haven't actually seen a planer in person, hence my newbie questions.


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## nickbatz (Mar 7, 2018)

> I would suggest that you DO NOT buy a jointer at this time. The reasons for not buying a jointer at this time are:
> 
> (1) You don t do much fine woodworking just yet since you just started with the hobby.
> (2) You can get away with using not so perfect lumber with your projects and you normally go to the big box store for your wood.


Lumber yards in Los Angeles - at least House of Hardwood in West LA - has very straight S2S boards. Of course they can still warp, but 95% of them are totally straight when you check them on their polished concrete floor.

Big box stores are a different matter, of course. Even the high quality Douglas Fir dimensional boards I get at Anawalt Hardware in North Hollyood.



> When you decide you want to use rough lumber or get more serious about the hobby then you should consider buying a jointer.


Rough lumber is a new concept to me. Where do you get it? Is it a lot less expensive?



> You can joint boards by hand with a hand plane or with a jig using your table saw or circular saw.


(Or router table for smaller pieces, of course.)

And now we go full circle. That was what I was saying to Geeyo at the beginning - that you don't need a jointer just to edge-join boards!


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

Now that's funny Nick. Esp the part about using the concrete floor for a straight edge. That's the Cowboy way right there.


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## nickbatz (Mar 7, 2018)

> Now that's funny Nick. Esp the part about using the concrete floor for a straight edge. That's the Cowboy way right there.
> 
> - Aj2


I can't tell if you're laughing with or at me (as most people do with considerable justification), but a totally flat surface will tell you right away if the board is bowed, no?

This is my latest, set up in the composer's room right after it arrived. (This one went across the country; I shipped the one I made before this to Paris. What a braggard I am!  ) My roundin'-up-dogies technique works well enough.


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

I'm not laughing I think it's great to think about what one has to work with and get the job done.

I do get frustrated when new woodworkers set them selves up for failure. Then look to total strangers for guidance.
Large tables are one example.

Good Luck


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## nickbatz (Mar 7, 2018)

^ Twiter-style Like.


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## Newbie17 (Feb 20, 2017)

In my situation, I wouldn't have gotten into woodworking without a jointer and planer. I need all my pieces to fit perfectly against each other for my sanity's sake.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> In my situation, I wouldn't have gotten into woodworking without a jointer and planer. I need all my pieces to fit perfectly against each other for my sanity's sake.
> 
> - Newbie17


I get it….........some never will.


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## Andybb (Sep 30, 2016)

> I ve always found that taking a rough, warped piece of wood, and in a few minutes on the jointer / planer / tablesaw turning it into something perfectly square and smooth that you can make things out of …. to be one of the joys of woodworking.
> 
> - unclearthur


+1. If you can afford it it will allow you to up your game and take on stuff that requires a jointer. Go for it. You can get by with a 6". If you have a planer there are jigs you can make that will let you do 12" boards. Those are the big 3 when it comes to getting fine boards. Jointer Planer TS.


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## nickbatz (Mar 7, 2018)

> I get it….........some never will.
> 
> - AlaskaGuy


I don't get it, but I'm a quick study if someone can explain it to me.

What I do get is that Home Depot stores their wood vertically and it's usually warped - if it hasn't been picked over so what's left is garbage. And of course I get that warped boards are ass.

What I don't get what the problem is with buying straight S2S boards at a good lumberyard where they'll even joint them for you, and then going to work and making stuff.

Seriously, I don't even know where I'd buy rough lumber in Los Angeles, much less why I'd want to when - unless I don't get it - I don't have to deal with it.


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## theart (Nov 18, 2016)

> What I don t get what the problem is with buying straight S2S boards at a good lumberyard where they ll even joint them for you, and then going to work and making stuff.
> 
> Seriously, I don t even know where I d buy rough lumber in Los Angeles, much less why I d want to when - unless I don t get it - I don t have to deal with it.
> 
> - nickbatz


There's no problem with buying wood that someone else took the trouble to get flat other than that it gets expensive if you need a lot of it. And it could still warp in storage. Everyone here has their own workflow, and what makes sense usually comes down to volume, time, and cost. I've found that I can flatten one face with a scrub plane, then smooth and thickness with a planer. Edges get squared and straightened with table saw jigs. But my workload is <100>m not selling anything. Much more, or if time was money, and I would definitely add a jointer.

Also, I live in the middle of nowhere, so straight from the saw mill is pretty much my only local option for hardwoods. When I was in a city, having stock milled to s4s for every project cost far less even the extra floor space to do it myself.


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## nickbatz (Mar 7, 2018)

> There s no problem with buying wood that someone else took the trouble to get flat other than that it gets expensive if you need a lot of it.


Again, I don't think you can even find rough sawn lumber in Los Angeles, so the argument that it's cheaper is kinda moot.

There's another thread about that (from a fellow who moved to Sherman Oaks, which is where I live), and as far as I can tell none of the lumberyards linked has anything other 4/4, 5/4, etc. (I don't think dimensional lumber is the right term for that, is it?).

As to "someone else took the trouble to get flat"... well, it's not like Santa's elves in leather aprons are working on it with planers.  They run it through some kind of milling machine.



> And it could still warp in storage.


Yes, that's the issue.


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## whitedogone (Jul 13, 2012)

> Nice, GrantA.
> 
> whitedogone, they arrest you for felling trees in Los Angeles.
> 
> ...


Exactly why I'd never live in that place!


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

All the lumber yards I visit. https://www.cherokeewood.com/ https://petermanlumber.com/ http://austinhardwoodsonline.com/
They all will sell rough sawn lumber but I have to let them know in advanced. The ones that get me in the most trouble are Austin hardwoods in Santa Ana. And https://www.tehwoods.com/ 
Bonhoff lumber in Los Angels had roughsawn when I was there some years ago. I bought Rough cedar

Good Luck


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

nickbatz

S2S and S4S lumber means it been surfaced on 2 side or on 4 sides. The doesn't mean it been jointed flat, square, and straight. It just means 2 sides or 4 sides have been surfaced and brought down to a certain thickness throughout. It can still be bowed, crooked, twisted. I've seen plenty of surface lumber that isn't even the same thickness when you put 2 pieces side by side and straight enough to edge glue into a wide panel.

When you run non jointed lumber through a planer the pressure rollers just before and after the cutter-head press the stock flat as the cutter does it work. As soon as the surfaced stock exit passed the pressure rollers the stock will spring back to it original shape.

Now they ship this surfaced lumber to where ever. Then you buy it bright it home but it's not truly flat and straight or square. Since they surfaced it you have no material left to mill it without it becoming undersized. You can't take 3/4 S2S, S3S, or S4S and joint it flat and still have 3/4 thick stock. You going to lose some thickness.


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## CaptainKlutz (Apr 23, 2014)

> Again, I don t think you can even find rough sawn lumber in Los Angeles, so the argument that it s cheaper is kinda moot.
> - nickbatz


Don't want to start a fight, but have to disagree with lack of rough sawn lumber in/around LA?
Bonhoff Lumber always has rough sawn lumber, and skip planed lumber. 
Swaner Hardwood also carries rough sawn.
Purchased from both of them.

The challenge with both mentioned above is they sell tons of S2S & S4S to cabinet shops, and do a lot of milling in house.

For Bonhoff, The milled stuff is where pick you can your own boards. The ugly rough sawn stuff is in the mill shop or back warehouse, behind the employee only signs. Need to ask, and get an escort. Helps when you buy several hundred bdft.

Wood in AZ is so blasted expensive, I have brought home a trailer with 2 units, (1) bigleaf maple shorts and (1) walnut shorts from Bonhoff. Local Peterman's Lumber in AZ was not happy when I told them I paid half their price in LA.

Another source overlooked is urban mills. These folks mill trees from peoples yards, after trimming, storms, or remodels. Most are way overpriced, but reasonably priced sources exist if you look. Like maybe Angel City Lumber.

Woodmizer has sawyer directory for each state that helps find rough sawn wood.

Google lists a lot hardwood suppliers in area:
https://www.google.com/maps/search/hardwood+lumber+near+Los+Angeles,+CA/@34.1078265,-118.7066134,8.71z

When someone says there is no lumber available, have to laugh. Wood has been used for centuries by man, and we are never very far away from it. 
And yes, when you live in concrete jungle, do have to get creative to find it occasionally. Maybe even drive a few hundred miles, but it is there to be found.

Thanks for reading my opinion.


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## nickbatz (Mar 7, 2018)

> Don t want to start a fight, but have to disagree with lack of rough sawn lumber in/around LA?
> - CaptainKlutz


Why would that be starting a fight?!

Thanks, I appreciate the info.

Is it cheaper than S2S? I mean at Bonhoff. I've been paying something like $5.25/board' for red oak, which isn't the lowest price but the quality is uniformly hig.

Also, I don't buy several hundred board feet at a time, more like… off the top of my head, 35 - 40'.


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## nickbatz (Mar 7, 2018)

> nickbatz
> 
> S2S and S4S lumber means it been surfaced on 2 side or on 4 sides. The doesn t mean it been jointed flat, square, and straight. It just means 2 sides or 4 sides have been surfaced and brought down to a certain thickness throughout. It can still be bowed, crooked, twisted. I ve seen plenty of surface lumber that isn t even the same thickness when you put 2 pieces side by side and straight enough to edge glue into a wide panel.
> 
> ...


I do get that, thanks - although the 4/4 boards I've been buying are exactly 13/16", and as I said, the lumber yard I've been frequenting has 95% flat boards (I put them on the floor to check).


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## Bill_Steele (Aug 29, 2013)

I think it's funny that the OP has never responded (I might have missed the post). I see that nickbatz has been the most active. Nick are you the proxy?

Honestly, I don't think you really need a jointer BUT…..for me it significantly speeds up the process of squaring lumber and I'm certain I get better results with the jointer than I would with a hand plane.

I have a set of these jointer clamps that I used for several years before I bought a jointer. They work well, you just need to have a board that is straight and long enough for the stock you are jointing.


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## nickbatz (Mar 7, 2018)

whitedogone: "Exactly why I'd never live in that place!"

LA - I LOVE IT!

It's a beautiful city and a great place to live.

"I think it's funny that the OP has never responded (I might have missed the post). I see that nickbatz has been the most active. Nick are you the proxy?"

No, but I'm enjoying the conversation - especially the parts about my favorite subject - myself.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> nickbatz
> 
> S2S and S4S lumber means it been surfaced on 2 side or on 4 sides. The doesn t mean it been jointed flat, square, and straight. It just means 2 sides or 4 sides have been surfaced and brought down to a certain thickness throughout. It can still be bowed, crooked, twisted. I ve seen plenty of surface lumber that isn t even the same thickness when you put 2 pieces side by side and straight enough to edge glue into a wide panel.
> 
> ...


That's because those boards have been surfaced. If you bought 4/4 in the rough the would be 1 to 1 1/8 thick Then you could mill them to flat, square, straight and to 3/4 thick.

In my Humble Opinion use the floor to check for straightness is a wast of bending over.


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## nickbatz (Mar 7, 2018)

> In my Humble Opinion use the floor to check for straightness is a wast of bending over.
> 
> - AlaskaGuy


It works a lot better than the ceiling.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> In my Humble Opinion use the floor to check for straightness is a wast of bending over.
> 
> - AlaskaGuy
> 
> ...


You know your stock is flat when it stick to the out feed table after jointing.


__
https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/49opt4


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## nickbatz (Mar 7, 2018)

Two different things, AlaskaGuy.

I'm starting a new thread to continue this discussion, since I've already hijacked this one enough. 

https://www.lumberjocks.com/topics/307270


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> Two different things, AlaskaGuy.
> 
> I m starting a new thread to continue this discussion, since I ve already hijacked this one enough.
> 
> ...


https://www.wwgoa.com/article/the-difference-between-a-jointer-and-planer/#


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## Jimothy (Oct 29, 2015)

A Jointer is definitely useful, but you could also use a jig/sled and shims with a thickness planer. Shim up the wobbly/high corners of your lumber which gives the planer an implied "flat" bottom to make the top surface parallel to. With smaller dimension lumber you could also use a router with a flush trim bit and a straight edge to joint/straighten your surface. You can also use a table-saw, on a sled, line your piece up so the edge that needs jointing is hitting the blade, use a toggle clamp to secure your work-piece to your table saw sled, and run it through!


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## nickbatz (Mar 7, 2018)

Old thread. I have a jointer, thickness planer, and a table saw jig.

At this point I'm not sold on the jointer, though. I have it set up as precisely as I can, and as I wrote in another thread, I'm batting about 250 with it.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Same old thing: A thread can be a hundred years old, but the information remains relative.

As to jointers, I have a planer and a jointer. The complicated planner method for flatening a board is great, if that's the only choice you have, because of cost or room. It remains many of us own long bed jointers for the same reason we own cordless drills and drivers - efficiency and convenience.

Those of us who have lived both worlds KNOW having a spindle sander makes projects a bit more do-able and so to it goes with jointers and other wood working equipment, be it a dust collector, versus a vacuum, a cabinet saw versus a circular saw and a guide and so on.


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## nickbatz (Mar 7, 2018)

You know, I thought this was my thread, and that's what I meant about the info being old (because I now have a jointer).

What an egomaniac I am. Sorry about that.

And yeah, right now I wish my jointer had a longer bed (the whole thing is 45", so it's in between short and long).


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

The point is, people say that all the time, as if the information is no longer of any value. Some seem to think there is some unwritten law requiring a new post to ask a timeless question a second or third time. In reality, finding relevant information would be far more simple if the same question was answered in a few posts, rather than forty.

I didn't bother looking to see if you were the original poster. Frankly, I don't care. The fact remains you had a question to which answers could help many. In the end, thousands of others have the exact, same question.


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## nickbatz (Mar 7, 2018)

Of course…. but my point is that someone else asked the question, I have a different thread or two about using jointers, and I made the mistake of thinking this was one of those threads.


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