# How do you feel about screw head options?



## richgreer (Dec 25, 2009)

I've been working on a project where I had to use a Torx driver to remove some screws. I don't think I have used a Torx head before. It got me thinking. I know there are a number of specialized screw head designs but there are really only 5 basic designs of screw heads: slot, phillips, square drive, hex drive and torx drive.

I like square drive PERIOD. There are times when I use hex drive (often with an allen wrench) when adjusting tools, but, when working with wood, I want square drives and nothing else.

I can't even figure what purpose the torx drive serves.

How about you? What's your favorite screw?


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## cabmaker (Sep 16, 2010)

Finish work ? robertsons all the way


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## CalgaryGeoff (Aug 10, 2011)

Robertson screw only. Not even sure why slot head screws are even made at all.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

Slotted screws on furniture for me.


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## smokey1945 (Feb 20, 2009)

+1 for square


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## Bill1225 (Oct 31, 2011)

torx t-20 and t 25 all the way


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## bondogaposis (Dec 18, 2011)

Square drive is my favorite. Although I love dry wall screws so I wind up using a lot of Philips.


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## Kickback (Mar 9, 2011)

Square drives that I have used from the BORG are stainless steel and they strip out if I look at them funny. Have tried different bits and they still strip out. The Torx screws almost never strip out. I use what i have and can get at the lowest price but still retain quality.


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## northeaster (Jul 30, 2011)

Once having tried square drive, I can't go back.

A piece of history (right or wrong, I would certainly take the blame if wrong) from my now deceased mechanical engineer father: Torx was apparently devised for and became popular over square drive in industrial assembly line work by reducing cam-out, making initial automated engagement more error free, and reducing tool wear (increased contact surface compared to square drive).


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## jmos (Nov 30, 2011)

I'm reaching here also, but weren't Torx originally proprietary, and the drivers only available to manufacturers, making them very difficult for consumers to mess with.

I like square drive myself, although I do use a lot of dry wall screws on jigs and such.


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## thebigvise (Jun 17, 2010)

I prefer square drives too. Spax offers the option of using a phillips or square drive in their Combo recess design. Of course, for my finer work, I try to avoid mechanical fasteners of any type.


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## northeaster (Jul 30, 2011)

John, you make a good point. Since Torx is a fairly recent invention (late '60's), you'd have to think that the reasons people adopted it are a composite of both technical and ever more important marketing angles.


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

My favorite is torx GRK screws. They NEVER slip in the head. Sometimes the bit get locked into the head I have to wiggle it loose.

A recent forum topic on them


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

+1 torx with GRK's

totally worth it.


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## Woodwrecker (Aug 11, 2008)

I've used Phillips for years, but the more I try square drive, the more I like them.
And, like John, I use drywall screws for jigs, or throw away items made from soft wood.
Good topic Rich.


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## Manitario (Jul 4, 2010)

Square drive. Partly out of patriotism that it was invented by a Canadian (Robertson).


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## Martyroc (Feb 1, 2012)

Like square, prefer torx, don't know why slotted screws are even made anymore, they are an old original design that needs to go away. in my opinion anyway.


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## canadianchips (Mar 12, 2010)

I'm with Manitario
Nothing better than the "Red Robbie".


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## devann (Jan 11, 2011)

Anything but slotted. Depends on the situation


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## oxyoke (Dec 15, 2011)

torx


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## RyanHaasen (Oct 29, 2011)

Robertson.


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## longgone (May 5, 2009)

I prefer the square drive and buy the harnened steel screws at McFeelys. The hardened steel screws hefty and are less likely to break or strip out. I have used stainless for exterior applications but the stainless is much softer.


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## derosa (Aug 21, 2010)

For visible screws on a finished piece I prefer slotted all the way, just looks cleaner and more traditional. Never used square drive, absolutely hate torx; working on bicycles it seems like every yahoo out there with a torx driver of some sort has to over tighten the bolts. And I know they are supposed to have better strength but when over tightened they strip out really easy. Overall I'll go with hex on anything mechanical or not seen on a finished project. I find the wrench engages positively enough for me, they can handle the necessary torque and if one does strip out you can always hammer in the similar sized torx wrench for that half size bigger; the opposite of a hex hammered into a torx doesn't work.


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## donbee (Feb 7, 2009)

In the beginning I used drywall screws. Cheap and plentiful.
Then I discovered how brittle they are and poorly made, at least the cheapest ones.
When I discovered square drive screws I was appropriately impressed with their qualities.
When making jigs and fixtures I always use them and when I'm done with them I can draw the screws out and put them back in the bin. 
For dry fitups they permit easy disassembly for adjustments.
I use Kreg tools for pocket screw joints and square drive screws are the only reasonable choice in my view.
Frankly, I prefer the look of them to slotted screws.

So, let's see - - - - I guess that would be my vote for slotted screws.

One exception, for MFD and similar materials I use confirmat screws. Special bits, yes and not cheap, but they work.

Best regards,
Don


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

In the US, there it should be federal law that all screws come with square drive ONLY. Maybe there should be an exception for drywall screws to be phillips since they need the cam-out for the power drivers…..but otherwise it's square drive or nothing. Of course, this is only my opinion, and I'd bet there would be a huge amount of folks who don't agree; maybe the same ones who don't want the metric system.


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## mtenterprises (Jan 10, 2011)

*In the US, there it should be federal law * Just what we need another *LAW* for us to give up our rights to. That is giving up your right of choice. and the right for manufactures to sell their VARIOUS products.

As for my choice I use what is in stock in my jars first then go buy what ever is appropreate.

Everyone seems in a big hurry today to drive them screws fast with their electric driver. 
Sounds like I'm a bit irritated I better shut up.
MIKE


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## 1yeldud1 (Jan 26, 2010)

I used phillips head drywall screws for years to build decks and projects - then I had an owner of a lumberyard introduce me to trox deck screws - these are wonderful coated screws just not a lot of selection below 2 inches in length - I believe you could take a 4 inch torx deck screw and drive it all the way thru a 4 by 4 and not strip it out !! But i must also say that my experience with square drive screws has been very limited and I had a poor experience with the brand that I tried (purchased square drive to use as replacement screws for a house hold basement door hinges - didn't work too good in that application - stripped out several)


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## richgreer (Dec 25, 2009)

It's been interesting to read people's comments on this subject. Thanks to all for your input.

My original post documents my preference for square drives. I need to add that I have very limited experience with torx head designs and I make like them just as much (maybe more) with more experience. I have lots of experience with slots and phillips and I know that, in general, I don't like them.

Let me also comment that all screws of the same design are not equal. I think Kreg screws are a little better than square drive deck screws (and priced accordingly). In particular, I find I can use a Kreg screw closer to the edge of the wood without it splintering the wood. I also find them less likely to break.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

Nothing uglier than a square-drive screw on an exposed piece of hardware, knob, handle or hinge. It's a sad day when newer generations see no need for reverence at the sight of a slotted-head brass screw on a latch or escutcheon on heirloom-quality furniture. Making crates, tote boxes or patio decks? Use whatever you want. Use the good stuff on the *good stuff*. Anyone advocating square drive "all the way" as was said a few times above, probably isn't making nice handcrafted home furniture, I'd assume.


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## Manitario (Jul 4, 2010)

*"Let me also comment that all screws of the same design are not equal"*

Rich, I agree; I've found square drive deck screws from the BORG cam out easily, compared to similar screws from another big box retailer.
I read an interesting article in Canadian WW; apparently "true" Robertson square drive bits are trademarked and perform a bit better than the regular square drive bits that are available. I haven't put this to the test yet…


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## jmos (Nov 30, 2011)

I can only speak for myself Pookiekat, but I was only referring to hidden screws. I would never use anything but a decorative slot head screw for exposed hardware. I don't think others are advocating using square or Torx on exposed hinges or handles either.

Heck, I even try to get the screw slots all aligned straight up and down.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

Anyone remember "clutch head" screws? The driver bit was kinda bowtie shaped. The fads seem to come and go. I'll bet Torx outlives the Robertsons, eventually only to be eclipsed by the next new fad. Hey, maybe somebody will invent a triangular drive? Whatever's next coming down the pike will be hailed as the new revolutionary industry standard..making all others obsolete…. and so it goes.

I'll admit, I'm a dinosaur…as a young lad, I watched my father, painstakingly boring holes with his 'Toastmaster' drill. He used those stamped steel pilot drills, the exact profile of the slotted flatheads, as he attached the leg brackets for a hand-me-down dining room table, driving those screws in with his favorite wood-handled screwdriver. Pilot profile drills made hand-powered screw-driving an almost effortless process. Those who exclusively have used power drivers all their life cannot be expected to understand what joy there is to be had in traditional screw-driving.


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## RussellAP (Feb 21, 2012)

Phillips take too much pressure to screw in, even with pilots sometimes, torx bits round off too easy, square is the way I go even though it's hard getting the bit out sometimes.


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## RussellAP (Feb 21, 2012)

I wish I could find a place that has square head screws in all sizes. The first time I used them was to hang kitchen cabinets. I was amazed at how little pressure I had to use to drive a 3 in screw with my screw gun. It's still hard finding them in all lengths and I hate to have to change bits in a project.


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## LepelstatCrafts (Jan 16, 2011)

torx or square if I can get them. Great for almost everything.


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## joebloe (Feb 13, 2012)

Square drive or torx,I''ve used both and like both.The torx tends to not strip out as I have seen square drive.but I agree with Manitario ,different brands of screws yeild different results


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## canadianchips (Mar 12, 2010)

Canadian P. L. Robertson invented the Robertson screw and screwdriver in 1908 .
Thinking I will not be here to see the Torx outlive this "Robertson" fad.
When the phone rings and the person on the other end says *"All you need to bring is a screw driver" 
*WHICH ONE …..........!


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

jmos, There are a few of us who even line up the slots on switch and receptacle cover plates ;-)


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## moke (Oct 19, 2010)

+1 on square drive--plentiful, never really had a problem, and cheap


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## ArtistryinWood (Apr 21, 2008)

It's hip to be Square.


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## jmos (Nov 30, 2011)

Topomax, now that's over the top. And I thought I was anal retentive


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## northeaster (Jul 30, 2011)

I have to admit to some fastener fatigue, too.

For example, some modern car companies' need to use hexagonal, XZN, 5 and 6 point security Torx for different applications in the same auto just drives me crazy, despite the fact that they're all technically superior to Philips or slotted: the accumulation of different sockets in my tool box became ridiculous some time ago.

By comparison, I think the comparatively low cost, simplicity and longevity of the Robertson design, combined with positive engagement, makes huge sense.


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## NiteWalker (May 7, 2011)

Square drive from mcfeely's. Never a need to look elsewhere.


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## Radu (Jan 25, 2010)

Robertson for me. I see Lowe's in my area started to carry them.


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## surfin2 (Oct 24, 2009)

At the time the slot screw was all we had…

Then Phillips came to the rescue, it was like day & night…

Then we went from screwdriver to power driver…

In my area square first pop'd up in mobile homes…

A few years later the bits appeared then a few square drive screws pop'd up…

Then torx pop'd up in the auto (67)industry…

Torx/Star screws have been around here for about the last 8 year's in very few varities…

Only since composite decking did they really take off here …

GRK Fasteners came in with a real good variety…

I like square drive but star drive has better (wider then Kreg) heads…


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## yank (Feb 1, 2007)

Quote: [I can only speak for myself Pookiekat, but I was only referring to hidden screws. I would never use anything but a decorative slot head screw for exposed hardware. I don't think others are advocating using square or Torx on exposed hinges or handles either. ]
but for general uses, I have to vote for the SQUARE head.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

*Yank and jmos:* I'm disturbed by the "*square, all the way*" comment expressed by a few above. Hence my comment about those who would not make the right choice in favor of expediency.
I want to retch every time I see square-drive screws used to attach shiny brass hardware. Guess ultimately, it is a self-image thing.

p.s. Canadianchips: Thanks for posting the excellent tip reference guide!

p.s. I'm talking about finely crafted, heirloom furniture here. Not the kind of stuff you might see in typical pulp WW magazines you see in the supermarket.

ps How You Make Things defines who you are, like a window to your soul.


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## yank (Feb 1, 2007)

Pookiekat; exposed hardware deserves the decorative screws that come with it, I was not advocating using square drive for that purpose.


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## Jeff28078 (Aug 27, 2009)

Robertson's for me. I'll even replace other screws with Robertson's if I get something with them in it.


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## racerglen (Oct 15, 2010)

P.S.
For those, like m'self, who use drywall screws for lots of things..You can get them with a Robertson head.
(and my votes for square drive )


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## Rick Dennington (Aug 27, 2009)

I'm with Poopiecat on the "fine screws for fine furniture" theory….I'll use the square drive screws (my favorites, anyway) on things like shop furniture, jigs, fixtures, etc….But for furniture I build for customers, etc., I try to use the old addage that "form follows function", and a lot of times, I'll use matching wood plugs (or a different wood to add "flare and accents)...that looks nice, too…..never used any Robetson screws….How are they better than the square drive?


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

This has been a great thread for me. For furniture, I use the good brass stuff, usually Phillips unless it's visble, then straight. For everything else, I generally use square or star. I actually use a lot of Kreg screws, even though they are expensive. I'm interested in trying out some of the offerings above.


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## Bagtown (Mar 9, 2008)

Ha ha
All the Canucks say "Robertson" and all the yanks say "Square Drive"

I have been known to drive a steel Robertson screw into a nice piece of hardwood with my driver, and then remove it and hand drive a nice brass on in its place.

One of the biggest reasons we have grown up with them here in Canada and they seem like something fairly new to the rest of the world is as follows (taken from wikipedia):

Robertson had licensed the screw design to a maker in England, but the party that he was dealing with intentionally drove the company into bankruptcy and purchased the rights from the trustee, thus circumventing Robertson. He spent a small fortune buying back the rights. Subsequently, he refused to allow anyone to make the screws under license. When Henry Ford tried out the Robertson screws he found they saved considerable time in Model T production, but when Robertson refused to license the screws to Ford, Ford realized that the supply of screws would not be guaranteed and chose to limit their use in production to Ford's Canadian division. Robertson's refusal to license his screws prevented their widespread adoption in the United States, where the more widely licensed Phillips head has gained acceptance. The restriction of licensing of Robertson's internal-wrenching square may have sped the development of the internal-wrenching hexagon, although documentation of this is limited.

Mike in Canada where Robertson screws abound.


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## Ripthorn (Mar 24, 2010)

I use a variety of screws. For guitars and the like, I like to use oval head screws, which generally limits me to phillips or slotted, and I despise slotted, even for fancy stuff (just my opinion, all of you are welcome to continue using them). I like square drive screws when there is a risk of cam out, but my go-to screws for shop jigs and such are all phillips. I'm also not a fan of brass fasteners, I much prefer the look of stainless or brushed steel.


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## mikema (Apr 27, 2011)

Used square drive screws for the first time last summer on an Adirondack chair project. For projects where the screw heads are hidden, or it doesn't really matter what it looks like (shop furniture) I agree, square head is the way to go. (I have not yet used a torx head screw on a project) I also agree for decorative screws, flat head or phillips head do look better.


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## northeaster (Jul 30, 2011)

pookie, I am old enough to have seen a certain number of wooden handled tools (grandpa's, not dad's, at least), but I long ago tired of slotted heads.

I'm probably inclined to talk about this at excessive length because I recently had to dig through roughly a hundred years of overpainting to get to some beautiful cast iron door hinges that were attached to their frames with slotted screws : I was very lucky to extract them in a now unusable form without the usual more serious measures.

Yes, I understand that replacing those screws with square drive #14's was sacrilegious. Despite that, I did spend the requisite hours wire brushing through the rust to find the Baldwin imprint on the hinges, repainting them with original color enamel, then clear coat (yes, non-regulation as well), and replacing the abused old pins with home cut tool steel rod that will last another hundred years. Not to mention repainting the square drive heads of the new screws to match the paint on the hinges.

But I will be g..d.. at this point if I will install another slot head when I can pick something of roughly the same vintage that is much less likely for me to strip if I ever have to do this again. In a weird way, it makes the repair look high-tech circa 1900. Not the primary intent, but practical in the way that people who build everyday things tend to be.

I understand your point of view, but would also suggest thinking about square drive in an historical as well as "fad" way.


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## canadianchips (Mar 12, 2010)

Not trying to be smart here BUT:
There is a difference between Square Drive and Robertson heads. 
Robertson is tapered. Square is not.
LOL


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## PCTNWV (Sep 21, 2010)

I use Square Drive for most things. I do use slotted or phillips for exposed areas (depends on what comes w/ the hardware)


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

I too have used a lot of square drive screws but when I had the opportunity to try torx I realized that square is very, very, good, but the torx are great. The torx head actually seem to give you better/more torc. If your drill is in drive mode and powerful, be careful. The drill will spin in your hands before the bit lets go of the head. In fact, if you let go of the drill it will stand upright in the screwhead. If your drill is horizontal it will actually hang there in mid air being held by the torx head. And the best thing… no slipping means no worn bits, ever.


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

I like the looks of a Phillips head on an exposed screw, plus I can tighten them up properly. I throw the slotted screws out when they come in a package. Anyone want 'em? SASE works for me.


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## NiteWalker (May 7, 2011)

IMHO, I like the look of square driver over slotted, and I'm with the camp that says slotted should go the way of the dodo.

@canadianchips, that's interesting info; mcfeely's uses both terms in their catalog IIRC.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

I agree with everything Poopiekat has stated. Looks mean everything on an exposed screw in a fine piece of woodworking.

I also learned something here. If your using brass screws, the idea of driving a square steel screw in the piece first, then removing it and installing the brass screw, ensures a flawless fit without the possibility of stripping the brass.
Thanks for the tip.

Great subject and post.


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## jagans (Feb 25, 2010)

Read the book "One Good Turn" an excellent read that is well worth your time, and it gives you the answer to why the heck auto makers have not used robertson (square drive) screws over the years. (Thanks Henry)

Robertson drive screws are hands down the best IMHO. They dont cam out, They dont burr, and the heads dont strip out.

JimA


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

For exterior screw, I use the self cutting torx. I installed some hinges on my shop using the grey 3" torx heads from Lowes. Having a recent robbery, I wanted to drill out the threads to prevent a crook from easing them out. When I tried to drill out the threads, they were so hard that I ended up using a masonry bit. For sheer strength, I've never seen a harder screw.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

I'm sure that, for the sake of expediency, having a dependable, positive drive is what makes it possible to aggressively ram a screw into a piece of wood without spinning out. What I've realized is that something has been lost along the way, as traditional woodworking slips away from newer generations of woodworkers. 
Here's a pic of my collection of old-style pilot bits. Some of these from my grand-dad's toolbox, but still get used:


This is the way the old-timey cabinetmakers put the screws to a joint. It's not the same as simply drilling a clearance hole on one side of the joint; these bits drill a perfectly sized hole all the way to the screw tip. This way, you could drive a conventional screw, slotted tip and all, into hardwood effortlessly, with a flat screwdriver, or, even cooler, a flat screwdriver bit in a bit brace. Old-timey guys would sometimes put a bit of paraffin or floor wax on the screw as well. This is why slotted-head screws are so misunderstood. Nobody has this stuff anymore, and the cheep Skokie or Vermont-American pilot bit crud of late was all that you could find in the hardware stores. SO….please try these tapered pilot bits. Only the threads themselves will contact the bore, and you'll be amazed at how easy you can sink a fat #12 screw into hardwood! You'll never have to worry about a screw splitting the backup piece either. It's how you make a screw joint that will last a hundred years. *Oh, yeah, don't get me wrong, I use any screw close at hand on the stuff that doesn't matter, but where I'm making something nice, the ability to sink some screws with traditional methods is certainly a most gratifying experience… kinda why I do woodworking in the first place.*


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## jagans (Feb 25, 2010)

Well Poopie,

If I never see a slotted head screw again it will be too soon. They are responsible for more injuries and ruined work pieces than can be counted. They are closely followed by the phillips screw, which, if you read the book I recommended was adopted by Henry Ford because he could get them cheap, and run them in fast. Remember, He did not have to take them out, just put them in. As a Registered roof consultant, I deal with fasteners all the time, as they are used by the tens of thousands to fasten components to the structural roof deck.

Take my word for it, or don't, your choice. The Robertson head screw is the best drive method of all. It can be employed on a wafer type head which can be nicely countersunk, and finding the size is easy, not like torx where you can spend more time looking for a bit than driving screws.

I agree with you completely regarding Pilot and through holes, and the fact that the world is full of wood butchers where craftsman once roamed our fine land.

JimA


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

When it comes to screwing, I guess I'm not that particular.


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## jagans (Feb 25, 2010)

Well said, Bertha. Its all gooooooood.


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## richgreer (Dec 25, 2009)

I knew this "twist" to the discussion was inevitable. I'm just surprised that it took 3 days.


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## jagans (Feb 25, 2010)

Im just happy that the "twist" was added by the fairer side.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

I posted the item above only to shed light on the fact that those old flat-head, slotted screws are not compatible with contemporary techniques and tools, which is why they are so maligned and misunderstood. On your next project, TRY using some old time slotted head screws with a matching pilot bit. It's quite an experience, and you'll be proud of yourself for what you've accomplished.


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## surfin2 (Oct 24, 2009)

*finding the size is easy
*
Robertson Recess dimensions:
Colour 
Orange (#00) 
Yellow (#0) 
Green (#1) 
Red (#2) 
Black (#3)


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## pintodeluxe (Sep 12, 2010)

I like square and T20 torx, but my favorite are the ACE phillips/square combo commonly seen with decking screws. They are the ones that use the blue anodized driver bit. They also accept a square drive.


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## jagans (Feb 25, 2010)

Thanks Rick.

Poopie, I agree that the old slotted screws and quality USA made drivers were a whole different ball game but

From an engineering standpoint the Robertson has it all over anything else available today.


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## Viktor (Jan 15, 2009)

Poopiekat, by "fine furniture" you probably mean period or reproduction furniture. Fine furniture is not limited to highboys with brass hinges. The term simply implies high level of aesthetic, elegance, sound design and attention to details and is not bound to particular type of hardware.

Brass slotted screws were widely used over the span of couple centuries not because of some inherent aesthetics, but because this is the only thing that was available and could be produced in large numbers at the time. I believe that efficiency and engineering excellence ARE beauty.

By the way, I usually pre-drill holes to mach (threaded and not threaded parts, countersink) regardless of the screw I use. Besides, many types of screws (deck, etc.) don't require stepped diameter hole due to their design. The non-threaded part is the optimal diameter.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

Okay…..Suffice to say that any furniture with crummy square-drive fasteners will never be found inside my nice home. One must have standards, y'know.


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## jagans (Feb 25, 2010)

Poopie,

Why would the method by which a particular screw, which is basically two simple machines, an inclined plane wrapped around a cylinder, have anything to do with the quality of the device itself? If you read "One good turn, you will see that it has long been known that the Robertson Head is superior to slotted or phillips, and its widespread use in the auto industry was halted by patent issues.

At 65 years of age, I pride myself on still having an open mind. That is the only way that one continues to learn.

The slotted screw was used because it was relatively simple to make compared to other types. That is the only reason.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

@jagans: Your 'open mind' seems to exclude my ability to make my own choices, and to freely express them here. My preferences are based on esthetics, and the aforementioned joy of hand-driving a piloted traditional fastener. How could this be a problem for anyone?


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## jagans (Feb 25, 2010)

Poopie,

There was no intention whatsoever to infringe on your opinion or your "Joy" We all make choices based on personal experience. I was simply airing mine.

Enjoy Yourself, and God Bless


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## racerglen (Oct 15, 2010)

"Inclined plane wrapped arround a cylinder" 
Poopie !..your mega thread lives on !

And poor Bertha (Al) he's having identity crises again !
"fairer side "

I'm with the side that thinks Robertson or square drive's are great utility screws, 
but brass and a shine, or patena's what you want to show ..

;-)


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## jagans (Feb 25, 2010)

That is what a screw is. It is an inclined plane wrapped around a cylinder. Two simple machines joined to achieve mechanical advantage.

And that would be Patina, Not Patena.

How we got from the best head form for threaded fasteners to what fastener is appropriate for a certain period of furniture is anybodies guess.


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## Bagtown (Mar 9, 2008)

I like brass Robertson head screws.

Mike


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

If one Lumberjock is inspired to try a traditional technique, and to experience a great sense of satisfaction as a result of it, then my purpose is fulfilled. There are fewer of us who have the benefit of old-school teachings, and if I can mentor somebody who never thought it possible to drive a tapered traditional woodscrew into hardwoods using only wrist-power, well there ya go! In this age of instantaneous gratification, it's obvious that handcrafted screw joinery would become extinct. The whole Robertson thing, from his hideous exclusionary marketing ploy in the '30s, lives on in the minds of those who chide others for wanting to preserve the conventional methods lest they be lost forever. Ya wanna use 'em? USE 'EM. I just prefer that feeling of artisanship, rather than feeling like some assembly-line hack with a strapped on screw-gun holster. Been there, done that. Artisanship is better.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

@Glen: Yes!! LOL at 'fairer side', and typo corrections from an open mind…. Heh.
Now, where was that thread with 'Man-hugs' in it?? Hee hee.


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## Bagtown (Mar 9, 2008)

wow.

You must be right then. After all you said you were.

LOL

mike


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

*@bagtown*: Well, after all, he did refer to *Al *as 'the fairer side'. *MMMMmmmwahhhhhhhhh!!!!*


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## Bagtown (Mar 9, 2008)

Damn, what happened to you unwatching this and going away?
Actually I was referring to your insistence that your way was the right way and the rest of us were wrong because we don't agree with you.

Mike


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

*Baggie:* I said numerous times, use square drives for this and that. I've used them myself, on several projects, jigs and stuff, even when putting up new eavestroughs. They certainly have their place. For me to promote one of the essential lost arts of woodworking is quite an appropriate thing to do on a woodworking site. And Rich's thread is the appropriate place to discuss this, where it is necessary for the sake of discussion to differentiate between utilitarian fastening jobs, and high-end woodworking. When the question is what type of screw head do you like.


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## Bagtown (Mar 9, 2008)

Thanks for the explanation Poopsie.
You sound so smart.



Mike


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Hey now! For a straight guy, I'm pretty fair I have a friend who really bought into the "metrosexual" phase when it was popular. Chicks really responded well, too. He had a famous line that I use for situations like this: "I'm not gay…but I could be" 
.
Editz: and to Poopie, if I found a square drive screw in a cherry highboy, I'd be heartbroken. It's like Brusso hardware; it's painful at the checkout line, but when it's on your painstakingly handmade piece, nothing else will do. I try to be delicate with furniture, slotted brass and the like. But for utilitarian stuff, I impact drive square/Torx heads until my impact driver click/clacks in misery.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

I don't think this needs to be another flame war, like in the non-shop forums. 
Poopiekat expressed his feelings and explained his views about fasteners. IMO, they're hard to argue with unless you want to argue for the sake of ad-nauseum.
Anyone who would drive a stainless square head into a quality piece of woodworking, where it is noticeable, in my opinion has a lack of pride and workmanship.
All fasteners have their place. Just not where they don't belong.


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## Bagtown (Mar 9, 2008)

Hey Jim,

Not trying to start anything.
But you state the same opinion as Poopiecat, which I have no problem with.
It's just when you add on the extra bit about the rest of us that might in fact use a Robertson drive screw into quality woodworking, lack pride and workmanship.
I take great pride in the work I do, and perhaps its not up to your standard.
I appreciate your insights.
However, I don't appreciate being told I have a lack of pride in my work because I don't use what you consider to be the "proper" screw.

Mike


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

If I looked up *'incongruity'* in the dictionary, there might be a picture of a fine Steinway piano, with the hinge cobbled on with Robertsons… heehee
Neither 'Tim the Tool Man' or Red Green ever made finely crafted, heirloom furniture. I guess any endeavor that doesn't feed their power-drive frenzy is not considered to be time well-spent.
Just an observation.
C'mon, just once, set your power tools aside and see how great your inner skills really are, by relying on your own armstrong power, as intimidating as it sounds, it just might be an almost religious experience for you to construct a simple keepsake box, handsawn boards, handcut dovetails, hand-planed surfaces, and a hinge and latch fastened with pilotted brass slotted screws..


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## surfin2 (Oct 24, 2009)

31 days ago Craftsman on the Lake started a post The right screw (head)

That's the first I ever heard of a Robertson screw…

I had no idea what kind of a screw it was…

We've had square drives here for about 20 years, but not in the stores in a good variety still…

*Robertson's breakthrough in 1908- when was it wildly available in Canada???*

I've been in WW for about 50 years & I still keep up with what's new & out there…


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## richgreer (Dec 25, 2009)

In my world, I use screws extensively when I am slapping jigs together. I also use them in construction/carpentry type jobs. I just finished a job of installing kitchen and bathroom cabinets and cupboards and I used square headed screws there extensively.

However, when I am doing true woodworking, I virtually never use an exposed screw. I recently used pockethole screws to attach a frame piece across the back of a night stand. Then when I put the back panel on, the pocketholes were completely hidden. Since my screws are very seldom visible on my woodworking, I have no concern about what they look like.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

Bagtown,
I looked up your projects and saw your Christmas decorations. Beautiful. If you were to attach those to say, a manger, would you not use brass hardware? 
That's all I'm saying


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## Bagtown (Mar 9, 2008)

Hey Jim,

You're right I might use brass hardware, but like I mentioned above in response #81, they would probably have a robertson head.

Mike


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## Bagtown (Mar 9, 2008)

*Poopiecat said - C'mon, just once, set your power tools aside and see how great your inner skills really are, by relying on your own armstrong power, as intimidating as it sounds, it just might be an almost religious experience for you*

Well, Mr Cat, I took your advise.
Thank you.
I spent a few bucks these last few weeks on some quality handtools.
And although I haven't built or finished anything of note yet.
There is a real thrill to chopping a mortise by hand and fixing a stool that was headed for the curb because the screw that held the stretcher on was broken the first time it was sat on.
I bought a set of gouges from LV and am having a great time carving a bowl from some firewood.

Again. Thanks for the suggestion, I might even turn into a galoot.

Mike


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## PutnamEco (May 27, 2009)

I prefer Phillips II plus. They are really hard to cam out and you can use a number of drivers and still not have any problems.The proper Phillips II, a No. 2 standard Phillips, and a No. 2 square drive, all work well. I prefer the self aligning nature of this driver and it's ability to be driven with the driver slightly out of line. I am however, also of the view that slotted screws DO have a place when esthetics come into play. If I'm building something for someone that has Ikea tastes, they get Phillips, If they have more traditional tastes, they're getting slotted.

There is a really good resource on screw drive types over on Instructables.com called "When-a-Phillips-is-not-a-Phillips-Plus-So-Much-More


One thing I'll add, I have found that there IS a difference between square drives and Robertsons. A Robertsons has a slight taper while a square drive does not. Using the wrong driver in either fastener will result in it having very little contact area which will make came outs all to easy.


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

They might be available in specialised hardware stores…
but I've never seen square head or Robertson screws in the big stores here in Belgium.
Didn't even knew it was existing.
While there is a big variety available (slotted, phillips, pozidriv ,torx , allen, hexagonal,...) I 've never seen the corresponding square bits neither, nor any such screw on anything.


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## jhunt (Aug 12, 2013)

Yeah Square Drives are the best - once you've used Square you won't go back. here is a good outline of the benefits of stainless steel square drive screws.


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## shawnmasterson (Jan 24, 2013)

I just got to ask any body remember these:








I am 31 and was the only one out of 6 guys on the job that knew they were a clutch head. any more with a good bit and an impact driver it really doesn't make a difference phillips or roberts.


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## Grandpa (Jan 28, 2011)

I used to have a clutch head driver but it got lost due to lack of need. I remember those being on the doof of my grandfathers model B John Deere tractor. Seems like they were used to adjust the headlight angle on some car but that was short lived I think. Dead except on antiques.


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

GRKs rock.

Spax do a fine job also.


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## rimfire7891 (Jun 15, 2010)

Robertson for most things because that is what is most available in Canada. 
Robertson is owned by Marmon Group LLC a US company which in the Berkshire Hathaway fold. They sure beat slotted in most applications. They can cam out in high torque operations. They have a tendency to stick to the bit when removing them which is a pain when the screw gets hot. This is caused by the slight taper of the square bit. Especially when using an impact driver.
Torx looks better (IMHO) and come off the bit easier because of the straight sides of the bit and don't tend to cam out.

There are Pozi-drive screws used mostly in Europe, very similar to a Philips except the sides of the star are straight not tapered. The Philips was designed mainly for the auto industry as being self limiting with torque so the bit would cam out on purpose once the fastener was tight. There is way less cam out with the Pozi-drive screw head.

Thanks jb

Thanks jb


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## NiteWalker (May 7, 2011)

For general woodworking/furniture making, I've never needed more than mcfeely's square drive screws. The grk and spax may be better in some ways, but they're more expensive, and since what I use now works perfect, I see no need to change.

IMHO, I don't think torx look better; they look like a stripped out phillips head.
Square drive for life!


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## exelectrician (Oct 3, 2011)

Torx - first choice

Square - second choice


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## Knothead62 (Apr 17, 2010)

I don't do as much woodworking as many of you but I prefer a Phillips head screw. In case someone has to do a repair job, a Phillips screwdriver is a standard item in the toolbox. As to slotted screw heads, a gunsmith's screwdriver and bits is worth its weight in gold- the slotted bits are straight, not tapered. Therefore, they don't "jump" out of the slot.
I just bought a new freezer that has the screw heads that are the star bit with the post in the middle (can't remember the name). They will be replaced with another type of screw.


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## crank49 (Apr 7, 2010)

Torx are easier to engage with the bit; only have to rotate 30 degrees max.
While square (Robertson) you may have to rotate the bit up to 90 degrees max. to engage.

I feel like the torx is harder to strip out than square, but the are both so much better than straight or phillips it is a non-issue for me. I'll take either one.

I have had a couple of flat head torx screws loose their heads, however. There is not much meat left between the bottom of the torx socket hole and the bottom of the counter sunk head. May have just been cheap or corroded screws. I was removing them from some salvage wood.


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## richgreer (Dec 25, 2009)

I have been happy using Kraig square drive screws. They are marketed for use with their pocket hole joinery system. I use them for everything. They are strong, seldom break and I never need a pilot hole. They offer fine thread for hardwoods and a course thread for soft woods. I only wish they were available in mor sizes.


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## PurpLev (May 30, 2008)

each screw head has it's characteristics which were designed for specific applications. you should really use what fits the project. no one screw is best for everything.

*torx* - has a great hold for application that require a lot of torque - mostly machines. no real benefit in furniture and boxes

*square* - has good grab (better than philips) - good screws for use in general woodworking as you can hardly strip these and they have a good transfer of the torque from the driver to the screw itself.

*philips* - head slot design allows driver to disengage and lose grip once ample torque is obtained - this is by design. if you find that you are stripping philips screws , then your pilot hole isn't bit or deep enough.


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## RussellAP (Feb 21, 2012)

I use a dacrotized No8 square head for most things, unless I need strength, then I use the stainless steel No8. Seems to be working fine.


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## surfin2 (Oct 24, 2009)

*Torx are easier to engage with the bit; only have to rotate 30 degrees max.
While square (Robertson) you may have to rotate the bit up to 90 degrees max. to engage.

I feel like the torx is harder to strip out than square, but the are both so much better than straight or phillips it is a non-issue for me. I'll take either one.*

Torx - first choice
Square - second choice


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## JJFU (Aug 14, 2013)

Definitely square.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

I use mostly Robertson drive screws, but I also use a lot of Phillips screws also. The secret to using Phillips screws successfully is to use the correct size bit and without cammed edges. Many people don't use enough downward force when driving the screw causing "cam-out". You may notice the stores sell Phillips bits in quantities of 25. That's because they will wear out.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

Screw quality also makes a big difference. Cheap screws will fail more easily than one made by a quality screw manufacturer. Since I am not a production worker, I use whatever screw is called for; even slotted head screws. As I previously stated, you need to match the tool to the screw. That is why they make screwdrivers and bits in so many sizes and styles. A gunsmith would never use an ordinary straight bit driver. Different screws require a screwdriver that was designed for that screw. There is no such thing as a ONE SIZE FITS ALL screwdriver. I still have a large quantity of slotted head silicon bronze wood screws left over from my boat building days that I often use. I just have to make sure I drill for pilot and clearance and use the proper screw tip.


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## bannerpond1 (Mar 15, 2013)

Square. I predrill both shank and thread and never have a problem.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

This may be a bit OT, but I was told to never use drywall screws for woodworking other than for installing drywall. The reason being; the screw is brittle and will snap off when over-driven. That is true, but I have been using them for years without any problem. I learned that you have to drive them without a pause until fully seated. Stopping and then restarting puts excessive torque on the screw that causes the screw to snap off. On softwood, I can drive them without predrilling, but on hardwood, predrilling is absolutely necessary.


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## Underdog (Oct 29, 2012)

As a former mechanic who had to buy tools every time the idiot car manufacturers changed fasteners like they changed their underwear…

I'm quite sympathetic to the "Square Drive All The Way" comments. There is no reason square drives can't be made to look good too.

As for Torx not stripping out? Pfffttt.. Obviously anyone who says this hasn't had to work on many cars.

My opinion? There are way too many fastener head types now. We NEED to strip some of them out and make them obsolete.


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## Jim Jakosh (Nov 24, 2009)

I use Robertson square drive!


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## Knothead62 (Apr 17, 2010)

"idiot car manufacturers " 
That goes for about any manufacturer today, in any country. Standardize and use existing tooling and parts.


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