# School Taught VS Self Taught



## ErikF (Apr 3, 2012)

I have been spending a lot of time lately considering the benefits of woodworking school. I know I want a career in woodworking and I know I can get into it whether I go to school for it or not. What gets me is the learning curve. I have been putting in about 15-20 hours a week for the past 8 months and have made some decent progress in developing my woodworking skills but I know I have a crap-load more to learn. I have 2 years left in the Marines so I have a good amount of time to continue building my knowledge base but after that it is time to dive into the real world where Uncle Sam isn't paying me twice a month to ensure I am happy and cozy.

There is a woodworking program offered at Palomar College which is only 10 miles from where I live now. From what I have read it is a pretty good program and the class options are pretty diverse. I would like to take advantage of it but I also have a wife and child to support, so if I decide to go to the school it would have to be worth the 2 years of stress that comes with having a family, school, and paying the bills.

I would like to hear from any of you that have gotten a formal education in woodworking and how much it has affected your woodworking capabilities and would you do it again. Also, anybody who is self taught and is making a living of it.

Thanks


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## NiteWalker (May 7, 2011)

All of my woodworking I learned from books and videos.
I'm sure it's a great experience, but I don't miss a formal education (or the cost associated with it) at all.

I don't "make a living" off of the projects I sell, but I'm able to support my tool and video game habits. ;-)


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## BentheViking (May 19, 2011)

its a tough call. going to school could cost money and it may not teach you exactly what you will need to learn for what you end up with for a career. on the other hand, if you just start tying to make money woodworking, your going to probably start out on the bottom and not make so much to start.

I did go through an intense 8 month training program that was a combo program between the local carpenters union, trade school, and Prince Charles. At the end I found it very difficult to find steady work that paid well afterwards. I eventually had to realize that it was ok to woodwork two days a week rather than five. Good luck


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## oluf (Jan 29, 2010)

Never pass up the opportunity to get formal education. You can still, and you must, continue to expand your knowledge and skills with self training and practice. There are untold stories of those who made it and made it well without formal training. You just don't know how much better they could hsve done or how much more they could have enjoyed the ride. Your wife and cjildern will be proud of you.


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## huff (May 28, 2009)

ErikF,

What kind of woodworking business do you plan on pursusing when you leave the Marine Corps. and what type woodworking will the school offer. All schools should teach you the basics of woodworking and jointery, but some will focus more on fine furniture construction and some will focus on carsass, cabinetry construction. All will definitely help you learn your trade, but you may spend a lot of time and money learning something other then what you plan on doing for a living.

I've owned a Custom Woodworking Business for the past 27 years (Just retired this year) and I guess you could say I'm self taught. I took woodworking classes when in High School, but that was it until I started my own business some 13 years after I graduated from HS. Over the years, I've taken some courses that I was interested in that I wanted to learn more about. Example; I took a course on woodturning, since I had two wood lathes in my shop and felt they really didn't make me any money since I was so limited on my skills with them.

Something you may want to check into is to see if any of the technical colleges in your area offer any furthering education courses on woodworking. They are more like 8-12 week classes and very reasonable. I taught classes in the evening for our local tech. college on woodworking and we focused on tools, safety and basic woodworking techniques. I usually had between 6-8 people in each class so I could spend a lot of time with each. It was very economical for each student and I had both men and women from young to old.

Even though I did not go to woodworking school, I would recommend it for anybody that could, as long as you get out of it what you're looking for. Over the years I've had a couple fellows come to work for me when they came out of a woodworking school and they really had no idea what it took to work in a typical shop. They knew how to hand cut a dovetail or mortise and tenon a joint, but no idea how to sell or build anything that actually used it. What I mean by that is; experience will also need to be your teacher.

Woodworking is a never ending learning experience.

BTW. Thanks for your service!


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## Pono (Mar 10, 2012)

I am self taught and learned what I could when I worked in a production shop.I have friends that went to school for woodworking and did not like it to slow of a pace.One good way is to work for custom shops that are willing to show you the tricks.I think spending the money on the education is good but might as well buy tools with that money and dive in.Practice on cheap woods till you can get it down.now a days you can use this site or google and get help on almost anything free. I think failure has been my teacher


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## teejk (Jan 19, 2011)

IMHO you will learn more about any profession "on the job" than any school can teach you (e.g. I had degrees in accounting and finance and quickly learned that the "real world" was never discussed in the class-room).

But in any trade, some education is vital if for no other reason than teaching safety and engineering principles. A 2 year classs room program seems to be a lot but if they take you through all aspects of woodworking (tools, safety, wood ID, finishing, basic stuff through fine carving), then maybe 2 years doesn't seem like a lot. They will most likely have nicer equipment than you could ever hope for but if you pay attention you'll learn a lot about where to spend your $$$ when you graduate.

btw…do they get into carving? I got all the tools and a few books for xmas a few years ago but am afraid to start (I don't have much of an artistic eye).


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## Sawdust4Blood (Feb 16, 2010)

I spent 28 years in the military and if it taught me nothing else, it taught me the importance of getting properly trained to do any job you want to do. No doubt that you can learn a lot on your own. But if you want to do this for a living and do right by your family then you owe it to them to be the best at it that you can possibly be. One trait that all the great ones have is that they never pass up the opportunity to learn from others. Will it be hard? Yes. But everything that is truly worth having is hard to attain.

Beyond that… Semper Fi and thanks for your service.


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## huff (May 28, 2009)

teejk,

Do you have any woodworking clubs in your area. A lot of times the woodwooking clubs will have members that teach different classes on turning, carving, sharpening etc. The classes are usually really reasonable and will at least teach you some of the basics.

When I was in Myrtle Beach, SC., they actually have a wood carving club that meets every week for a couple hours. Anyone is welcome to come and either watch, or actually carve. These guys were really good and they would help you with anything. If you could find something like that in your area, it would be a super way to learn to carve.


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## Dabcan (Feb 1, 2011)

I'm in the same boat as you. I just finished a career and have decided to move into fine woodworking as my next. I thought long and hard about school, and whether to do intensive (and more expensive) programs or longer programs which would allow me to work part time. I am also newly married with a 3 year old.

In the end I decided to go to a private woodworking school in an intensive 6 week program. I learnt an incredible amount, but my teacher was also amazing. What I benefitted most from, funny enough, was my screw ups. Every time something didn't work out right, my teacher was there to help walk me through a solution. Plus the number of time saving tips and tricks I learnt from his 30+ years experience was invaluable.

Now will a formal education guarantee you a career in woodworking? Of course not, no education will guarantee that in any line of work. But it certainly can help put you on the right foot. I would love to continue my schooling, but the money has run out so I have to work a bit more and save up more money.

If you signed up for this two year program and managed to find a local fine woodworking company to work for (even if you volunteered) after class, you would leave school with an incredible foundation.

Let us know what you decide!


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## ErikF (Apr 3, 2012)

Thanks for all of the great responses. Here is what the school offers:

CFT 100 Fundamentals of Woodworking
CFT 105 Machine Woodworking / Furniture
CFT 110/111 Machine Tool Joinery I & II
CFT 120 Advanced Furniture Lab
CFT 122 Cabinetmaking Lab
CFT 124 Chair / Table Lab
CFT 130 Guitar / Stringed Instrument Making
CFT 142 The Art & Craft of Planemaking
CFT 143 Decorative Box Making
CFT 144 Production Furniture Making - Toys
CFT 145 Advanced Toy Manufacturing
CFT 149/150 Hand Joinery Technique I & II
CFT 151/152 Veneering Technology I & II
CFT 153 Studio Furniture Design
CFT 155/156 Classic American Chair Designs I & II
CFT 157/158 Chair and Seating / Prototype Construction
Chair and Seating / Product Manufacturing
CFT 161/162 Table / Prototype Construction
Table / Production Manufacturing
CFT 163 Plastic Laminate Fabrication
CFT 165/167 Cabinetmaking / Face Frame Construction
Cabinetmaking / 32mm European Construction
CFT 168 Architectural Millwork
CFT 169 Computer Cabinet Layout
CFT 170 Workbench Design & Production work bench projects
CFT 173 Bamboo Fly Rod Building
CFT 175 Jigs and Fixtures - Detailed notes about the project together with photos can be viewed on a 17-page PDF document (371KB).
CFT 176 Woodturning / Lathe
CFT 180 Wood Bending and Lamination
CFT 185 Shop Layout / Design & Machine Tool Technology
CFT 187/188/189 Introduction to Carving, Intermediate Carving,Advanced Carving
CFT 195 Finishing & Touch-up Repair
CFT 196 Special Problems in CFT
CFT 197 Timber Frame Workshop
CFT 198 Advanced Finishing & Touch-up Repair
CFT 97J Starting a Woodworking Business

The Actual 2 year certificates are:
Furniture Making
Cabinet Making and Millwork

I would be applying for the furniture making certificate and I think it would be interesting to take a few classes on building instruments as well. I am able to use my GI Bill so the 2 years of school would be paid for and I would still have another two years left on the GI Bill to pursue another degree down the road.

They also do their own milling at the school. This is something I am interested in as well…I would be very interested in cutting and drying my own wood and also selling what is left over. From what I have read, they teach you about this process to a certain extent as well.

I guess it comes down to knowing what I want and deciding which way to get it. I know there is sacrifice either way but it's hard to judge where the road ahead leads to.

Thanks again


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## JesseTutt (Aug 15, 2012)

While in the Marines, could you get the government to pay for some education? How about night school in general business and sales & marketing? Both would be a plus for any business. Would they pay for any of the woodworking classes? GI Bill?

I think that a formal training program lays a good foundation for any career. It won't provide everything you need, but it is a good start. Additionally, having a Associates or Bachelors is sometimes useful.

Are there any woodworking stores in your area that would have a 1 night class on using a particular tool?


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## OnlyJustME (Nov 22, 2011)

You can spend the money on school training or spend the money on a botched project where you have to buy more wood to redo it or you under priced the project since you didn't know ahead of time what you were getting into.. Both give you training and you spend money either way. But did that project have a deadline that you can't meet now since it has to be redone. That won't get you many call backs.

i would opt for the school training to start with since this is something you will be wanting to support the family with. It will give you at least some knowledge base to fall back on, on what you are getting into with certain projects and get your muscle memory started ahead of time.

If it was just a hobby that you have been doing a long time on the side and it just sort of started into a business that's a different story.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

I spent almost 20 years in the carpentry/woodworking field, all self taught. I switched careers about 15 years ago to technology, again self taught. I got my bachelor degree, self taught, and I teach technology as a self taught teacher.

*You* need to answer that question. How do you learn. I can sit in a classroom and after about 3 days my eyes glass over. But if I just start doing it, I'll learn how. I can buy a book, read and do as I read and retain. Once I set my mind to learning it, I don't stop until I'm happy with my results.

So are you a self motivated, can read and understand, if you don't understand can you research and figure it out, or are you better having someone explain it.

I'm not telling how I do it to brag, but to explain why you may not need school. If you learn better in a more traditional way, then go to school.

There is a good reason almost every major university in the country now has online degree capabilities. When I did it it was relatively new. Today, not so much.

I completely agree you should learn from anyone you can, I'm just not of the opinion traditional classroom learning is the only way to do it.


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## JAAune (Jan 22, 2012)

It's hard to give a definite recommendation for any individual but there's several things that should be mentioned. First of all, a good woodworking school will do wonders for your knowledge, confidence and help in making connections with other furniture makers. In my classes, I learned in just a couple years what most self taught woodworkers will not learn in 20. The knowledge alone isn't enough though. Like Huff says, it'll also take plenty of time working in the shop to develop actual skills. The schooling simply makes this easier since less time is wasted practicing bad technique.

Also, making a living as a furniture maker is not easy. It takes an enormous amount of time and practice to develop the skill required to make turn a decent profit. It might be a good idea to contemplate the idea of making non-furniture items as well.

To make a living, two additional skills are important - creativity and salesmanship. The creativity is what makes your work stand out from the sea of manufactured goods. Salesmanship is important because people probably won't need anything you have to sell. They can probably get it cheaper elsewhere and will have to really desire your products before they will buy. Being a good woodworker isn't enough. I know this because my inexperienced business partner has obtained as much work in one year as I have in several.

My original plan was to be self-taught but I'm glad I ended up doing an apprenticeship with a furniture-maker instead. Lots of hands-on practice and being in a real business environment gave me a grounding in how to work with the goal of earning a living. This is a lot different from being a hobbyist woodworker and requires a different mindset.

For supplemental education I took classes at Marc Adams School. I decided to go to this school because the week-long classes could be fit into my schedule as time and budget permitted. Also, I was able to pick topics based upon my individual needs. For example, I didn't need to learn how to operate machinery since I learned that in my apprenticeship but classes on finishing techniques and wood-bending were loaded with information I hadn't yet acquired.


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## Milo (Apr 24, 2009)

I'd go back to school for woodworking in a HEARTBEAT if I could…


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## huff (May 28, 2009)

Very well put JAAune; Marketing and selling are going to be just as important to know how to do as woodworking itself.

I notice there was only one course that was listed that had anything to do with actually starting or owning and running a woodworking business.


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## Manitario (Jul 4, 2010)

Why do you want to go to school? What do you hope to learn? What direction do you want your ww career to take? What are your areas of weakness as a woodworker that you want to achieve through school? My 2 cents is that you ask yourself these hard questions and have very clear goals for what you want to get out of school. I often have seen people go into university/college and take courses that seem good but don't really help them get any closer to their career goals. I spent 12 years in post-secondary education and came away with a solid career, but I entered university with very clear goals of what I wanted to achieve, and what I'd have to take to achieve it. You want to take courses to become a better ww but it would probably help you to have more focus ie. are you taking courses that will improve your technical skills/design/marketing?


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

A lot of the guys teaching those college classes in how
to make furniture and guitars are doing it because they
haven't cracked the nut on how to market their own
work in those fields. Some have other careers and are
basically hobby artisans (some with impressive skills) 
with no real need to sell their work to put food on the table.

Sure, you can go to school and learn how to build 
furniture, but it won't teach you, generally, how to
compete in the marketplace at all because the teachers
are often unable to do so themselves.

In terms of cabinetmaking in millwork technology, 
the stuff you read in the hobby and fine woodworking
magazines gives a distorted view of what it's about
to do such work as a career. Again, the people writing
the articles are writing to supplement their woodworking
incomes and are often working with machinery more
geared towards furniture making than cabinet making.

There's money to be made in cabinetry. The money in custom 
furniture is harder to come by. There's a substantial
learning curve in both specialties.

Time spent practicing your drawing is never wasted for
a designer.

P.S. I did a semester in acoustic guitar construction at 
Orange Coast College when it was offered (no more). Other
than that I am self taught.


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## Grandpa (Jan 28, 2011)

I am on the other end of life so to speak. I have a degree in Industrial Arts that is almost 45 years old. That would be Technology today. I think a person goes to school any time and all the time. Sometimes it is formal education in the classroom or a hands on school, in a business or self taught from books and videos. The successful person will have to do this. It could also be working side by side with a person. Some of these things would put you on the fast track and others might take a lot longer. I think a combination of all the above listed would be the most rounded education. I have taught in our local technology school. It was adult classes in the evening. There are some things you need to know that are not in some of the books or videos we read. Can you draw and read blueprints? That is the first hurdle. You have to operate all the machines safely. Then you can get into the techniques. I found that the guys or ladies that came to the school had to have a print and be able to read it. Those that could do this the first night cme with materials the next week and were building. Those that couldn't read a print were weeks behind. This is in the classroom. I think you also need to know how to sell yourself and your product. There are guys on this site that often ask how do I get started. Formal education never hurt anyone. Get all you can and learn all you can. Ask yourself this: who would I hire and why would I hire him or her. The vidoe and home school only works after you have proven yourself. If you have a certificate it might not make you any smarter but it will get you in the door for an interview. How do you plan to sell yourself? While I was writing this I see that Loren said basically the same thing. They posted together. Sorry but at least we agree.


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## ErikF (Apr 3, 2012)

Thanks for all of the useful advice on this one ladies and gents. I have a lot to think about and I am lucky that I have another 2 years to think about it.

I have been exercising my sales ability a little bit out here where I live and have managed to get one furniture store to sell my pieces, and at a decent rate (enough profit to keep me stocking their store) so I figure this is a first step in networking and convincing someone they want a product I can offer.

I am halfway to a bachelors in business and will continue working toward it during my military career. The reason I would like to go to a woodworking school before I finish my business degree is me being scared this could be my only chance. I feel I would regret if I don't give this everything I have while I have the chance. If I focus on the business degree I will miss this window. I don't want to end up being in the same position again that I am in right now: I do not like my job due to the fact that it is not rewarding. I have had a lot of great experiences in the Marine Corps, I've been on multiple deployments in some shady places, but the war is over…life is much different now. My satisfaction comes out of working with my hands to create something. I am sure you all know the sense of accomplishment that comes out of this art. I don't have a drive for other things like I do for woodworking and that is whats driving me to make this a career. Could I do something else that makes more money? Sure…but I'm not sure I want to trade satisfaction for money. I would never neglect the fact that my family counts on me to support them but I feel with enough drive and willingness to learn just about anything can work out.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

From my experience as an electrician, proper training is priceless. I see a lot of work installed by unorganized trainees/journeymen and self taught DIYs. Sure, it is not that hard to get it to work, but too much of it borders on arson! You can spend a lifetime discovering what you could learn is the 2 years.


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## davidmicraig (Nov 21, 2009)

I currently work in IT. I started out as a temp in an agency and had a fair amount of knowledge already obtained by my time spent with a computer, reading books, and gaining some life experience. After a few years of work, I started attending college to get my degree in the field. There were times when I might have only benefited from five minutes in a one hour class but I can tell you that those five minutes filled in gaps between long strings of things I already knew to bring it all together. The knowledge was invaluable.

Life experience, working with tools, "on the job" training are all valuable things to obtain. I would never discourage anyone from expanding in this manner. But if given the opportunity, I would take advantage of educational opportunities to fill in those small gaps. It can make all the difference in the world.

David


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

My advice for what it's worth is to get an education in something else that you can bring to woodworking because there are gobs of great woodworkers out there already. Think of the famous woodworkers:
Norm was a mechanical engineer; Roy studied engineering, forestry and media; Bob Vila (not a woodworker but related) studied science; Christopher Schwarz was a journalist; David Marks studied art; Frank Lloyd Wright studied engineering; William Morris was an artist. Sure there are guys like Frid, Krenov and Maloof who were woodworkers first and foremost but many of those guys ended up teaching and writing books to earn a living; and they got a start before China started dumping cheap furniture into western markets. There was a time I wanted a career in woodworking then I met Kelly Mehler and got a dose of reality which combined with the reality that I wasn't getting many customers made me realize that I preferred woodworking as a hobby. I'm not trying to dissuade you from woodworking but rather encourage you learn other skills in addition to woodworking so that you can be more successful. Being able to plow wood is one thing but being able to differentiate and market yourself is another.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

Let us for the sake of argument distinguish between
"fine" woodworking (fine furniture, instruments) and
cabinetmaking, which increasingly runs to project
management, panel processing and sales skills. If
you know how to plan jobs, order components,
make those you need or find profit in making and 
manage delivery and installations, you can make 
a decent living as a cabinet man. As a bonus you'll
get to have a shop and tools to do fine work when
time permits.

In affluent coastal areas there is money to be made.
In sparsely populated and less affluent areas the
rewards may be more scarce. As in most business,
location matters.

Palomar has a reputable woodworking program. I 
would go for it if I were you, but if you want to
make a job of it, get cabinetmaking skills under
your belt as a priority.


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## paratrooper34 (Apr 27, 2010)

Erik, if you haven't researched it yet, check out the Post 9/11 GI Bill. Not only will schooling be paid for but you will also draw BAH for an E-5 based on zip code. The benefits paid are authorized for multiple types of education choices to include trade schools. Additionally, there are some other options available through the VA for training and such that are not related to the GI Bill. Still more, there are veteran's advantages through the Small Business Administration that offer some very attractive options to get small businesses up and running.

As mentioned above, woodworking schools do not teach the business side of the trade. Nor should they, by the way. Trade schools teach trades, not how to market them. That's why there are separate schools/courses that teach business. As posted by another above, classifying instructors of trades as individuals who could not figure out how to market their skills is a pretty unfair indictment on the individual and people in general who actually like teaching and instructing. PS: no trade would survive long if there were no one around to teach them. Anyway, you should take separate business classes to learn how to handle that side of your business. There are resources that will help make your business plan and all related things at start up, but running the business will be up to you.

On your installation, there should be a transition office for people moving or leaving the service. I suggest getting in touch with them so you can start paving the way to understand everything that is available to you when you leave the MC. In the Army, we can begin the transition process at the two year mark. This allows plenty of time to begin planning and getting yourself set up for life in the civilian world.

Good Luck!


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

I have met and known a lot of people with jobs teaching
college and never known one of them to be less than
totally psyched about having a regular paycheck, a pension
plan and, in some cases, sweet state job benefits.

... regular paychecks and sweet benefits being something
you don't get when you build custom furniture as your
full-time gig.


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## mtenterprises (Jan 10, 2011)

Again I haven't read all the responses here but my opinion is books, Books, BOOKS. If you can read AND comprehend what you are reading then be able to practice it you will be well on your way. This way you can first read about the tools and machinery then study the areas spacifically that you what to learn. The BEST way to learn is practice. I teach my Boy Scouts how to tie knots and tell them,"Tie it 10 times correctly and you will know it, but it works like this if you make a mistake you have to start back at number 1 again." Start with the simple and make a bunch of them using certain spacific techniques and purpose that each succiessve one is better than the previous one. Don't try making 10 at one time all will have the same mistakes, make one to compleation then the next etcetra to #10. Do this through each project joint or process and you will quickly become profecient in the trade. This is how aprentices were taught. You cannot go from butt jointed box directly to Queen Ann furniture in one step. So save your money study at your own pace practice practice practice as often as you can and you will be well on your way in that 2 year period. Reading can be done anytime you have spare time. The practice time is what you need, if school = x hours then purpose between you and your wife that you will put in at least that much practice time on your own for the same time you would be going to school, a year or 2 or 3. Also, if you can, befriend another local more expieranced woodworker to critique your work and skills it will be helpful. You will both learn from the expierance and he will be happy to have passed on his knowledge. If you can find information on how the aprentices of old were taught read it and apply it to your learning. This doesn't have to be just about woodworking aprentices read and apply info from the other trades.
IMO
MIKE


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## lumberjoe (Mar 30, 2012)

I've learned a lot form books and online stuff, but I am of the opinion that "I don't know what I don't know". I select material pertinent to what I an trying to accomplish at the time (finishing, turning, certain styles of furniture, joinery, etc). I think I would really benefit from some general start-to-finish instruction that is instructor led. If Anaheim CA wasn't so far away, I would love to take some classes at the William Ng school


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## Swyftfeet (Jun 15, 2012)

I hope I don't come off as a jerk or even seem like I am looking down on the many guys here who do extremely fine work, working really long hours, breathing dust and other carcinogens, its not my intent at all. Just putting a dose of reality from one vet to the next.

Erik when you use your GI Bill, you get one shot pretty much. That can be a trade school or an accredited formal school. You stated you have a family. It's your responsibility as the paterfamilias (in my opinion) to provide for them with the best you can possibly do. Woodworking is likely one of the riskiest trades you can get into. You not only have to be excellent in execution, but you have to be an artist and businessman as well.

Loren has provided you with I think is some very good advice. A lot of people who teach are supplementing the lack of income in their field due to a host of factors. It could be location, demand, or likely that they have moderate to excellent execution skills but are poor skilled on the business side. There are outliers here(people who excel at both) who contribute to this forum. Jim and Charles come to mind.

I guess what I am saying is its great that you love woodworking, but it has a LOT of risk. Relatively few of the field are making serious bucks. You have a one time chance to get a free education. You state you are halfway thru a business degree. In this economy that's a dime a dozen.

I would humbly (or not depending on how you are reading this) suggest that you put that chance into something where you are sure that you can get a stable income to provide for your family. If you choose to burn the midnight candle and produce fine woodworking projects in the off time and sell them on consignment. You can build a customer base, a good reputation and at some point make the switch to going full time if it is economically viable.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

well said Brian.


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## thebigvise (Jun 17, 2010)

I have thought about your post for several hours. Although I am a physician and I do not attempt to make money with woodworking, I still feel compelled to offer my humble opinion:

1. It is extremely difficult to profit from custom woodworking. I strongly recommend that you get a regular day job to support your family while you develop your wookworking skills during your off hours. You need a paycheck and benefits which are at least years off as a self-employed woodworker.

2. Understand that woodworking can be divided into two broad categories, case construction such as cabinetry, and custom furniture. Cabinetry is hotly competitive and some describe it as a commodity where large volume is the key to profit. Custom furniture, in contrast, is extremely time-consuming and you will need to command several thousand dollars for a table before your family will be supported. You will need to be very good AND market yourself well before you can have a list of clients waiting to pay $1000's per piece.

3. I love your youth, passion, and idealism. The best case scenario may be for you to be hired by an established shop so that you can have positive cash flow as you concurrently develop your skills with wood and with money matters.

Just my humble thoughts….. Good luck.


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## OggieOglethorpe (Aug 15, 2012)

If I had that program nearby, and GI Bill money, it would be school in a heartbeat.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

just one more thought, I've known more lousy craftsman succeed because they a great business men than I have ever seen great craftsman succeed when they are lousy business men.

Learn what you need to learn, not just woodworking.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

I take week long classes at one of the "woodworking Retreat" schools every year.

What I pick up in a week from a pro in that field, would take much longer to just figure out on my own.
Others have mentioned that there is a lot that you will already know, but you can spend a LOT of time figuring out things the hard way that a few hours Hands-on with a professional showing you things - is HUGE.

I like this weekly format because it is not a huge block of time and money, and also the instructors are all professional woodworkers who share with you the experiences and needs of working as a woodworker.
That is something that can be missing in some of the college programs with a fixed faculty telling you about how the real world "Should" be.

Also recognize that these "Top Name" woodworkers are doing the teaching gig to help pay the bills.

You also get to learn the tips, and tricks and jigs, that they have developed over the years that will help you hit the ground running and be successful early rather than struggling with certain tasks.

I would say to try one of the classes, and decide if it was worth the time, effort and money that you spent on it.

The other thing you get is comradery and contacts perhaps in your area for milling lumber and more.
Others have said it and it is true… never pass on getting more education.


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## Bob817 (Nov 17, 2011)

Erik , Life is very different now than when I was growing up, having a high school diploma got you through many doors of employment now it gets you into the labor aspect of it the foundation if you will, a labororer, a machine operator, the guy that sweeps the floor and emptys the waste baskets. To get some where in life you need a certificate or a college education the more classroom skills you have the better off you are for your future and your familys. What was good 20-30 years ago is now history, times and needs have changed and so has the work force but you'll always need that hands on afterwards. The education you get in the classroom will help your future ten fold. You and only you, can shape the future of your life if the oportunity is there go for it use all the resources you can because nobody else can do it for you. I wish you the best of what you decide and thankyou for your service.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

*As posted by another above, classifying instructors of trades as individuals who could not figure out how to market their skills is a pretty unfair indictment on the individual and people in general who actually like teaching and instructing.*

I didn't see any such indictment but rather a commentary that there is no market for the skill. The only guys I've met making a good living from woodworking are doing one of a few things… kitchen cabinetry and built-ins; luthiers (and that's tougher everyday); carpenters; architectural woodworking - stairs, molding, milling, casework, etc. (tough to break into); or teaching/writing/speaking. I've met a number of folks who produce beautiful furniture but the potential customer base is very limited and even at that level there is plenty of competition.


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## Swyftfeet (Jun 15, 2012)

I really hope people did not infer from me that I have the attitude of "Those who teach cannot do." I don't feel that that is the case at all.

Teaching and Doing are complete and separate skills and the Venn Diagram can overlap to any extent from 0-100%. One of the best swimming coaches I have ever known sank like a rock without a life jacket, we went 15-1 that year. Being an excellent teacher does not mean the instructor can't survive in the wilderness, nor does being a superior woodworker make a good teacher. I can put up with a crotchety sawdust-covered muppet of a pro and learn a great deal, and learn nothing from a nice helpful guy who never held a backsaw… 

I believe teaching woodworking(private school) is an extremely marketable skill and viable supplementary income and could be a primary income as long as you have the reputation built from prior work to keep you gainfully employed. But you have to have a name to fill the seats and equipment available to support your fees, or even to become an instructor at a vocational school I am sure you would need to have a lengthy resume or portfolio. I have not looked into it and am pure backyard lawyering.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

There was a quote from Sam Maloof - when asked to judge peoples work - he said he could always spot the work from the people that went to college of the redwoods….Everyone that came out of there had learned the "krenov way" and were building chests on stands.

To me that is a challege of a set faculty with a fixed curriculum/program. On the good side the classes fit together into a great curriculum. on the down side, there is a pedagogical method, and students are "trained" to see and design in a certain way - where there really are many ways to accomplish certain tasks (like sharpening or cutting tails first dovetails) and one isn't right while the others are wrong.

Not an indictment of teachers, but how cumbersome the process can be when hands on woodworking skills, get woven into a multi year program at a college. So many things need to happen at once, it is hard to break the process into pieces.

So it goes with design - - when I took the class on chair design under Michael Fortune. Everyone had their own designs, that were worked through and prototyped. But then time was spent on how to make jigs and fixtures to do the joinery and be able reproduce that same chair, or even to make spare/replacement parts.

To me I really enjoyed how the steps fit together, including covering how to Photograph your work, and present your designs. For me there was great clarity in both the HOW and the WHY things were done a certain way.


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## tbone (Apr 24, 2008)

I'm not sure if anyone has suggested it or not…but have you considered an internship-or apprenticeship-at a local millwork shop or high-end store fixtures shop? It would be hands-on learning from quality craftsmen who are *already* making a living doing it. (And instead of paying tuition,they might even pay *you* a little)


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

I'm inclined toward the self taught approach, but that depends on your level of understanding of wood, tools and their use. It is my perception that people either have what it takes or they don't. I believe that you either have manual dexterity or are all thumbs and that's what makes the difference between those who can and those who never will. As ErikF pointed out in his post; there are many directions to go in a 2 year curriculum. If you opt to take school, you may find that they will start out with the most rudimentary basics. If you already have basic skills, this will be a waste of your time and after completing, you may discover that out of 2 years, you may have only taken advantage of a small % of the whole course. In closing, I would say; If you have basic skills and not all thumbs, skip the school and go for an apprenticeship, but if you don't know the difference between a hammer and a mallet, go to school. Being a marine, you already have the skills to succeed and that will go a long way toward your career. Thank you for your service to our country. Semper Fi. Oh BTW Keep reading these woodworking forums. There is a lot of great information available and many able and willing people to lend a hand.


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## davidmicraig (Nov 21, 2009)

I mean no disrespect when I say this Mr. Ron, but I wholeheartedly disagree. I would agree that everyone has certain aptitudes when it comes to a variety of different mental and physical skills but this is a craft that requires certain muscle training. Some people get this training early in life, shop classes in school, exposure to woodworking at an early age due to the hobbies/work of a parent who encourages early, but I don't know too many people who just "have it."

There are some common, what I feel are misconceptions, when it comes to things that require physical skill. I remember playing my guitar and having someone walking by and saying "I wish I had natural talent." While that was supposed to be a compliment, I took exception to it. Only because this individual was under the impression that people just pick up the guitar and start playing. They don't. Everyone that plays had to spend days/weeks/years developing their hand coordination, finger strength, dexterity, etc. in order to play.

Even with prodigies, it is usually discovered (yes, I know there are rare exceptions) that after several years, the prodigy as a child is not that much more capable than one who took more time to learn these skills.

Please do not take any insult from these comments. I just know that if I were to hear these words when I first started, I probably would have traded in my tools. Because my first projects would have told me that, in a world where you either have it or you don't, that I didn't have it 

David


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## teejk (Jan 19, 2011)

DRDirt…from an earlier post I was amazed at the broad range of topics covered in that course (many of which he will have no interest in what so ever but at least get an idea of what is involved). The other benefits I have said before…experience the different tools (most likely of higher quality than I can afford) which if one pays attention will let him differentiate between "nice to have" vs. "must have". And hopefully each subject includes the safety concerns for every tool/operation.

When I was in high school I had the opportunity to get all of that…I was steered away from it and only years later did I pick up the habit on my own. Unfortunately now, legal concerns are forcing many schools to drop their shop programs.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

I think there is a difference in what MrRon is saying and David is saying. I think you are both right, but it needs to be expanded on. Some people just can't be taught, some things. And no matter how hard they try they just don't get it, and thats what I get from what MrRon is saying.

If you get it, you can learn it, and probably quickly, if you don't get it, you'll probably never learn it to a degree were you can make a living at it. Most people fall somewhere in between.

You can teach most people the functional task of woodworking. The running tools, making joints, finishing can be taught. Having artist sense, vision, and design aptitude is a lot harder to teach. We can even teach the design functions, but having the creativity is something inside and much harder to teach. I believe it can only be taught to a point, i do believe there is a such thing a natural talent.

When I was growing up on the dairy farm, we had a milk truck driver who had been driving milk truck (the tanker that picked up the milk) for about 30 years. He would back into the milk house of every farm on his route about 3 times a year. That's a guy that just did't get it. Really nice guy, but what a terrible truck driver.


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## davidmicraig (Nov 21, 2009)

Thanks for the intervention Don. That makes a great deal of sense when broken down like that. I am probably a little over sensitive on the "natural talent" concept. You and Mr.Ron are right on the basis that some things can't be taught. When jockmike2 would invite me over for lathing lessons, he would just put a lathe chisel in my hand and put me to work. "I can show you anything you want to see David but you ain't going to learn anything just watching.." he would tell me. He was right of course, but I also learned tons from watching him. There are some techniques you are not going to figure out yourself in a short amount of time. Mike saved me a great deal of aggravation.

At the same time, there are folks that learned so early that they don't remember really being taught. They just figure some of these things are basic and don't require any further education. I believe in natural aptitude but I do not believe in self education. And I believe that, aptitude or not, one still has to go through the same mind/body training and education in order to get anywhere.

Thanks for your comments and my apologies to Mr.Ron for any misconstruction I might have made of his comments.

David


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## ErikF (Apr 3, 2012)

Thanks for all of the posts, they have been thought provoking and entertaining. Luckily I am in no major rush to make this decision but I do find comfort in having a plan. I just ordered a few woodworking books to add to my collection and will be spending the next year putting them to good use.

Last night I contacted an old acquaintance of mine from some years back. He has been a professional woodworker for the past 35 years and has made a good living from it. I also asked him if you has ever sponsored and apprentice before. I'm looking forward to his response even if he only gives me a take on his experience as a professional woodworker.

I believe in preparing myself for whichever path I plan to take and will continue to do that. My family comes first and I would never leave them hanging…if woodworking doesn't end up as my primary career, so be it. It will still play a major role in my life and can always be used as a supplementary income. Either way…thanks to you all.

Maybe I'll just win the lottery….


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

Sam Maloof wrote in his book that he thought that design
sense could not be "taught" but that it could be learned
by most anybody who wanted to learn it enough.

Similarly, how far you progress in woodworking skill is
intimately tied to how hungry you can remain over a
long period of time to challenge yourself, explore
new techniques and take increasingly more complex
technical risks, not to mention investing in finer materials
as your skills grow.


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

Come on. Woodworking isn't like playing guitar or becoming a professional athlete. It just takes a little practice. It's a psychomotor skill with very little coordination required.

What it does require is both the knowledge of how things work and, perhaps, a feel for the value and purpose for what is being accomplished. The physical part of it just complements the other two, helping a woodworker to better use his/her mind and heart. There nothing difficult about the physical part. I've never known anybody that didn't have the psychomotor skills for woodworking. It just takes a little practice, as does everything.

I love when people start talking about education and learning theory. Unfortunately, they really don't know what they are talking about. This is why actual career teachers, like me, merely roll our eyes on a daily basis when we hear parents and politicians trying to tell us how to do our jobs.

Education, by the way, is a calling. We do it because we enjoy it and want to make a difference….not because its a fall-back position. Those kinds of people last about 3.5 years in the education business…and I don't care if you're a shop teacher or a high school math teacher like me.

Benjamin Bloom is known in our circles for his "taxonomy," which is a set of domains for how an individual learns. It's a holistic model meaning that the most effectual learning occurs when aspects of cognition (mind), affect (heart), and psychomotor (body) come together in the learning process.

The most difficult part of teaching is dealing with a student's lack of ability in the "affective" domain. They can be as cognitively smart as Einstein, but if they do not have a way to evaluate what they've learned, characterize it, and then internally value it, then it really doesn't stick. This is why teaching HS math is so difficult…the kids aren't mature enough to truly understand the importance of what is being learned. If they did, they'd be more successful. Likewise, it's why SO MANY people work in career fields entirely different from their college degree. Many people just realize that other things make more sense for them, which is an affective skill.

@Erik - Thanks for what you do. If you feel it's time to move on and get in to woodworking, you are already one-up on most learners…you have the heart & desire components critical to learning. That said, you have to evaluate whether or not formal education in woodworking is something that is of benefit to you? Will you learn the requisite skills to succeed? Will the program teach you to better appreciate the way you feel and value the subject? Or, will it just teach you a methodology that you may, or may not, completely feel right about? Will it increase your worldview of how the trade or art affects the lives of others and how you can make a difference in it?

If so, then do it and read some books about business. Otherwise, go get a degree in business and read a ton of books about woodworking.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

Erik, if nothing else, you've got the right attitude and your planning and goal setting will help insure your success, whatever the ultimate decision becomes.

I made a reasonable living but knew I could do better. Keep your options open and keep on your quest for knowledge. Knowledge is the power, however you come about it.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Learning how to promote yourself and product is probably more important for a small scale WW operation than a business education.


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## lwllms (Jun 1, 2009)

Woodworking isn't rocket science. Get a 1955 or earlier copy of Charles Hayward's Cabinet Making for Beginners and learn what he's offering there. It's only 200 pages and, if you know what's there, you'll know more about woodworking than almost all the instructors I've met and I've taught a lot of places. Hayward covers mostly hand tools but machines use the same processes. Learning to work with hand tools is the fastest way to really understand machine work.

You do need experience, you need to learn to interact with your tools. This involves projecting your consciousness to the cutting edge(s) doing the work. It involves both touch and intuition but requires a real knowledge of the properties of the woods you'll work with. You'll also have to learn to maintain your tools. You won't get this in school, it takes some experience.

Do go to school, though. Learn to draw, hand drawn illustrations have a warm character you'll never get from CAD. Learn how to work as part of a team and interact with people in a way that gives them both confidence in themselves and confidence in you. This last is critical for success, these are the same skills you need when working with customers, suppliers, employees, or business partners. Actually listening to people is a big part of this.

Learn to design. School and good drawing skills are a big help but design is my weakest skill so I obviously can't give much advise here.

In school you can learn to run a business but the models you'll study will likely be different than what you're going to do.

It's also important to learn to be flexible.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

Every woodworker is self taught but outside education exposes you to decades and centuries of proven techniques. Having an actual instructor is useful because they can answer questions you didn't know to ask and correct any mistakes in your technique. .


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## newwoodbutcher (Aug 6, 2010)

The only affiliation I have with Palomar College is that I have been a student.
I've been woodworking since I started my consulting business twenty three years ago. It was on the advice of my business coach that "you better get a fun hobby or you're going to become boring and a workaholic". Turns out it was very good advice. For the first few years I made boxes. Nice ones. I kept building my shop tools inventory and reading everything I could. Subscribed to magazines, read books and watched videos for about five years. I was building pretty nice but basic stuff. A few tables, desk, and like that. Feeling pretty good about my hobby and the development of my craft but knowing very well I had a long way to go to produce top quality furniture. Then I went to Palomar, holy crap!!! My skill level and knowledge jumped exponentially with each class I took, from 101 through hand cut dovetails, and veneering. Those teachers were exceptional wood workers and teachers. Believe me, you will not regret taking woodworking classes v at Palomar Collage. I live in Fallbrook.


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## GerryB (May 1, 2011)

You should contact the GI Bill Rep at Palomar. I know that there are programs where you can work as an apprentice, the GI Bill will pay part of your wages for a period of time. I'm relatively sure that the Corps also has some education money for outside training? Maybe the education officer can line you up on those things, so you could do the classroom stuff prior to RELAD.
R/ GerryB


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

No offense taken. I think exposure at an early age has a lot to do with the ability to pick up a skill with seemingly little effort. From my own experience, I learned to drive a stick shift car and double clutch just through observation and understanding how power got from the engine through the clutch and gears to the rear wheels. The first time I got to drive a car was when I went to take my driving test. I admit I practiced going forward and backing inside the garage, but never on the road. I never had to take a driving lesson. I consider myself a very safe and skilled driver to this day. On several occasions, I've enrolled in community college courses thinking I would learn something new only to drop out because the instructor was teaching what I already knew. Obviously there were some who gained from it.

I have the feeling that the disipline required for Erik to be a Marine will carry over into civilian life and will be an aid in whatever trade he chooses.


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## DocSavage45 (Aug 14, 2010)

Great Thread! Glad I found it. Wonderful opinions, and all valid. I have looked at your projects, noticed a lot of tables? And you are progressing. Learning occurrs differently for all of us. We just need to go with our strenghts. You are thoughtful, and a concerned guy who wants to do the right thing. Problem is the motivation?

Several options are presented here with very good reasoning behind them.

I am a mental health professional who was a woodworker as a kid. Life happens, and that will be a big factor. As a military guy ( mine was vietnam era) you have a garantee for income, and unless you are high in the chain of comand usually following someone elses directions?

Nothing is written in stone. Many responders here have run into a wall, and found another route with woodworking. The GI bill is different in some states but if you have to pay out of pocket….many graduates can't find work. And the debts are not fogivable.

I have advised people getting degrees to work in social services that if they want to help people? Just do it. A two year program is a great place to start.

The cirriculum (sp?) will give you a fundamental training. Some people learn best with structured guidance, others learn by mistakes and doing. Who are you? How do you learn? Motivation is a big factor to keep you going. But if it is to support your family, you may be dissapointed. They now build houses in factories and ship them to the site.

If you are a reader and can learn to apply from reading. Some great books out there. There are many excellent teachers who can show you through DVD training. There are weekend traing programs from well known woodworkers and furniture makers.

I offered to be a gopher for several woodworkers with small shops. In my case I was turned down for various reasons. I also made a decision to go into woodworking doing studio furniture (delusional) and it was when the market crashed LOL!

Went to a design workshop but got better lessons in survival from the master woodworker. He sells himself and the creation. he also lives in a cosmopolitan area with discretionary income. Jim Post has a great book on business of woodworking. Seth Stem has written what I believe the best functional book on furniture design. krenov writes on the spirit of the wood and woodworker.

Well my two cents is in the growing penny pile. LOL!

good luck on your journey. It is YOUR journey!

I look forward to your first dovetail project 

Tom Tieffenbacher/aka docSavage45


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

Hey Doc, I usually get about 1\4 of the way through a post that long and move on. Well written and well said.


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## DocSavage45 (Aug 14, 2010)

Me too thanks! This was not a negative thread which usually shuts me down.


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