# Dining room table courtesy of Ana White assist



## Wodin (Oct 28, 2013)

Fellow woodworkers,
I just happened to find this forum, so I registered hoping to ask for some friendly advice. I am a novice woodworker. To get a gauge of my skill level and experience, I've done a lot of carpentry work such as installing hardwood floors, finish trim, etc. As for woodworking, I've built seven of the end grain cutting boards shown on Marc Spagnuolo's Wood Whisperer site. Yes, I did seven (they were groomsmen gifts for my wedding and I did them for parents too). As for tools, I currently have a Bosch roll away table saw with an upgraded blade, a DeWalt planer (DW734), a 10" sliding compound miter saw, a palm orbital sander, and the usual drills, circular saws, etc. Anyway, to continue, my next project I intend on working on is a dining table.

I am not good at just winging it yet. Like cooking, I need a recipe. I found a great set of plans on Ana White's website, seen here. I plan on building that table as well as two benches to go along with it. I am also 6'5 so I'd like to perhaps raise it an inch, but I can probably manage that.

My question which I will put to you is this. It appears they used fir or pine for that table. I would like to use hardwood, perhaps white oak or another wood that is durable for a dining room table. I am open to suggestions. The uncertainty comes when I consider the difference in weight when using 6/4 thickness for the surface. I assume I could still use fir or pine for the supports. Would that work alright?

I have purchased hardwood online before, but is it possible to get those 4×4s easily? I assume these aren't the 4×4s at home depot. Pardon my ignorance; this is something new to me. The purple heart and rock maple I used for the cutting boards I had to plane before cutting. Could I buy the supports, assuming the fir or pine will go well with a hardwood surface, at a local supplier as a 4×4 or would I need to get it as 12/4 or 16/4 hardwood?

Could I still use the same joining techniques with hardwood as the surface? Ideally I'd use mortise and tenon as much as possible, but it is beyond my skill level right now. I'll drill the pocket holes and fasten it as prescribed in the plans.

Thank you for reading. I would really appreciate any insight. I promise to pay it forward when I am more skilled!
Wodin


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## HerbC (Jul 28, 2010)

Your best bet would be to find a local sawmill or lumberyard and purchase the hardwoods rough dressed. You will save a lot of money on the lumber and get what you need in the way of the larger timbers.

Good Luck!

Be Careful!

Herb


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

I agree with Herb buy your wood from a local wood supplier or mill ,here's a link for that.
http://www.woodfinder.com/search.php
If it were me I would use the same material for the base as the top. Using pocket holes can cause trouble particularly
when you use them to connect the top to the base ,it won't allow for wood movement .In general I don't think pocket screws are strong enough for bases either. In general they are unattractive. Keep in mind just because you have plans does not mean that the company or person that drew them up knows what their talking about. Even though you think mortise and tenon joinery are beyond your existing skills I would encourage you to try some,that's how you learn and grow as a woodworker.
Here's a good source for plans that usually has very accurate and easy plans free of charge

http://www.woodsmithshop.com/episodes/downloads/


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## Wodin (Oct 28, 2013)

Gentlemen,
Thank you so much for your replies! I will have a look at the resources you supplied and will report back.


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## Oosik (Oct 16, 2013)

a1Jim, what's the best way to attach tops to tables?

Lots of Ana Whites plans use pocket holes. I know you have to double check the measurements on a few of the plans on her site because they will claim to get more feet than a board is long.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Wodin
You can use figure 8s or shop made buttons or top fasteners.

http://www.rockler.com/desk-top-fasteners

http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2001036/10127/Table-Top-Fasteners.aspx

Here's another post that has some good ideas including shop made buttons

http://lumberjocks.com/topics/14002


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## Wodin (Oct 28, 2013)

A1jim and others, 
Thank you so much for your consideration. I will look into these and let you know how it works out! Thank you again!


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## Wodin (Oct 28, 2013)

Fellow lumberjocks,
I've been at work (slowly) on this project, and am at a point where the frustration has exceeded the enjoyment. I was doing alright with the base, accepting with construction grade lumber I will have small gaps.

Now that I have moved onto the tabletop and benches, I want those to be tight and look good. Sadly, my goals for this don't seem attainable with my basic skill and tools available.



http://imgur.com/s9YtK


There is a small album showing the progress I have made. The wood on top is 8/4 red oak. The five pieces in the middle of the tabletop look great and have excellent seams with the other pieces due to the fact that I bought a 72" Jorgensen clamp which held things in place while I secured the pocket holes.

The problem started as I planned to secure the two end pieces. I didn't have the ability to feed the entire tabletop across my Bosch roll-away table saw, so I thought I could just sand it down. This was a HUGE mistake. I sanded both the end piece down and the ends of the five pieces in an attempt to make them like two puzzle pieces which fit together. After hours and hours of sanding on both sides, I just said it's as good as it will get, glued it up, and secured the pocket screws in place. What was left was a table top with a substantial gap in it. I am out of oak as well.

I keep thinking, if only I could make some jig where I could even take my circular saw across the table top, I could ensure a nice flat piece I could secure the end onto. I could run the end piece across my table saw to reset the mistake I made with the sanding at the loss of 1/8".

I saw Marc Spagnuolo's guide on flattening a tabletop using a box and straight bit. I will purchase that bit for the purpose of doing that, but first, I need to get this end piece taken care of.

If any of you could offer some advice, I would gladly partake of it. On top of all of this, in a month I am moving my household to Puerto Rico. Once I can setup shop there, I will resume whatever I can't get done before the movers arrive.


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

Is the gap we see in the first pic the top or bottom of the table?


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## Wodin (Oct 28, 2013)

The gap you see is at the bottom as we look at it but will be the top of the table. It is sitting, unsecured, on it's top.


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## Wodin (Oct 28, 2013)

I think I fixed it.

Instead of needing a giant table saw, I just used some scraps as cawls. Using my strong clamps, I put them in place and used my circular saw to get a nice, clean cut across the piece after I removed all the screws. I also fed the end piece across the table saw, removing half a blade length just to clean it up.

I again used the cawls to position and clamp the pieces in position while re-screwing the pocket screws. I think it came out much better than the first go round.

What do you think?



http://imgur.com/JlFZu


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

Nailed it! Perfect solution and well executed.


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## Wodin (Oct 28, 2013)

Thanks Chris! I was really frustrated before. I know if I hadn't fixed it, every time we would have eaten at the table all I would have focused on is the flaws!


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Wodin
Your still way off base your end pieces on your top is a cross grain situation (GLUING CROSS GRAIN WOOD DOES NOT WORK )this is basic basic woodworking. your table top is going to come apart or crack or both due to wood movement.

http://www.americanfurnituredsgn.com/wood_movement.htm


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## Wodin (Oct 28, 2013)

Jim, 
I never claimed to be an expert. My "basic basic" skills will likely end up costing me all my time and effort when it splits. I am following a design I obtained from another website, so I assume they had accounted for that. If/when it all comes apart, I suppose my best course of action would be to go to Target and buy something made in china and ebay my tools, as I have given this an earnest effort without any real satisfaction gained.

There's also no more glue in my table. I am using Kreg HD 2.5" screws for everything.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

I'm sorry for being so rude ,your right you are giving it your best effort and just like everyone who learns woodworking you have lessens to learn,just like I did and every other woodworker out there. I thought I had posted how Ana White knows very little if anything about joinery or wood movement,she just guesses how things go together to get the look she wants. I was wrong it was another post that was making the same mistake with more of Ana whites poor joinery I commented on. Please accept my apologizes for my bad behavior, and don't give up on making your own furniture and projects.

This is the right way to do end boards on tables


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## Wodin (Oct 28, 2013)

Jim,
No apologies are necessary, my friend. That fellow's bread board ends have beautiful mortise and tenon joinery. I hope to use that technique on my next project. It's a wonderful technique, but very intimidating for the novice. It looks like it may be a necessity to learn and use it. Thanks for the tips.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Here is another way to kind of short cut rather than mortice and tenons,but you still have to be careful how you connect it.

http://www.woodmagazine.com/woodworking-tips/techniques/joinery/use-breadboard-without-tricky-mortises/


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## NormG (Mar 5, 2010)

My wife enjoys Anna White's site. Thanks for the reminder Jim on the correct way to attach the bread board, I was just looking at a similar piece a few days ago and was wondering how to attached these correctly.

Do not give up, continue your endeavor, things take time


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## ChefHDAN (Aug 7, 2010)

Some of my best teachers have been the mistakes I've made, we are our strongest critic my wife always tells me "Nobody else will every see that" but every time the slightest flaw might as well be a blinking neon light in my face, I've made some real expensive firewood and I've made a few pieces I'm really proud of but I wouldn't stop trying for anything, be fearless Wodin, when the frustration exceeds enjoyment take the night off and come here, you'll be among friends.


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## Wodin (Oct 28, 2013)

Thanks for the good cheer, everyone. At this point, as I lick my wounds and look at what is certain to be a failed project, I now ask myself what lies ahead.

Is this able to be salvaged? If so, how should that be accomplished? I think perhaps a loose tenon would work for the five pieces which comprise the bulk of the tabletop. For the breadboards, since they already hang substantially over the support base, I could actually stand to cut a bit of it down to support a standard mortise and tenon style.

If I were to do this, which tools would you recommend? I am aware of a tool called a "mortising machine" but have zero experience in qualifying them.

As Jim showed above, I could facilitate a solution on the breadboards using a tenon and modifying the mortise. If this were to be the path chosen, which tools would you recommend for facilitating that?

I also wonder if the problem will extend beyond the breadboards and into the five larger pieces of the tabletop. If so, I obviously need to fix it. If not, then it's an easier solution.

My wife just says to finish it as is, learn from the mistakes, and make the next one better. 100 board feet of red oak cost me $500 plus freight, so I am not happy to have dearly paid for this lesson. I am, however, grateful for all of you collectively helping me out and making me feel as if perhaps someday I can make something wonderful.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

I don't think it would be that hard to change the end boards if their just attacked with pocket screws. Just take them of and router(assuming you have a router and or a router table) a tongue on each end of the table and put a slot in the end board .
Like this…










unlike the drawing you can have the groove go all the way through the end piece,then you can cut it on a table saw.


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## Wodin (Oct 28, 2013)

Jim, I think I could handle that.

I have a DeWalt plunge style router. I think I'd have to find a small straight bit and plunge it into the end piece for the mortise. I would cut the tenons on my table saw as you said.

What are your thoughts on the other five pieces? Would they need done with a M&T as well, or would they be alright as they are with the pocket holes securing them to one another?


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

One more point about the end pieces ,is that you need to leave the tongue full length also.
As far as the the other boards on the table top all of their wood grains are going the same way so they should be fine,normally I would have just glued those together ,no need for pocket screws assuming you have enough clamps to hold the top together until the glue dries.
Not knowing how much routing experience you have using a router, so make sure you have a straight edge clamped down tightly so it won't slip, to guide the router and route from left to right except the last couple of inches where you router from right to left to keep from blowing out the wood .It's really a good idea to practice on some scrap if you have some .Remember to sneak up on the cuts of the tongue and groove to make sure their centered and have proper fit to each other.


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## Wodin (Oct 28, 2013)

Sorry to belabor the topic, but since the Tongue and Groove style won't give any joining strength, shall I use glue only to hold the breadboards to the tabletop main piece? I have some old Titebond II, but it is actually well past it's useful date.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

wodin
you can apply glue to the center inch or so but no more ,other wise you will be in the same boat your starting at restricting the movement of the center boards. Just the groove will help hold the other boards flat. you do use wooden pegs with a little glue on the top of the pegs only as shown in the drawing .elongating the holes is important like the drawing shows also. The pegs hold the bread board on.

Here's what it should look like when it's all finished.


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## ChefHDAN (Aug 7, 2010)

DAUM Jim, those are some pretty joints!


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Chefhdan
They are great ,but it's a photo I got off line.


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## Wodin (Oct 28, 2013)

I now have my task laid out in front of me. I will cut a through mortise (I think it's also called a dado) on the breadboard, and will rout out each top and bottom of the main piece to form a tenon.

I do not have a dado blade for my TS, and Lowe's didn't carry them. I may order one from amazon if you think it's the right way to go and is needed for the job.

As for the dowels, I suppose it doesn't matter too much what kind I use. I was tempted to find some ebony dowels for a nice effect with the oak, but then realized I need to stain the oak so the contrast wouldn't be that remarkable. I do not have a drill press either. Hopefully those holes can be fashioned alright with a careful hand and my 18V Milwaukee cordless.

I'll look for some dowels and a dado blade now. It looks like any real progress may have to wait awhile until I am up and running in San Juan, as materials delays are eating up the clock.


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## RussellAP (Feb 21, 2012)

Anna White is a designer and a good one too, but you have to rework some of the joinery like Jim says. I've made quite a few of her designs. They are usually very simple and clean. 









That is one that I made and sold for $200.00. All white pine painted well with primer and paint after sanding the wood to 80 grit for maximum primer adhesion. 
Sand your pieces as you cut them out, makes it much easier.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Wodin

You don't have to have a dado blade to make a groove , just make multiple cuts on your table saw and move the fence a little at a time until your groove is the size you want. As far as pegs are concerned you can easily make your own. get a fairly thick piece of metal (1/8" or thicker) drill a hole in it the size you want then cut a piece of wood just a little bigger than the hole ,as an example if you want a 1/4" hole cut a piece of wood a little bigger than 1/4"x1/4" , cut to about 2" long than sharpen one end (like a pencil) and use a hammer to pound the wood through the hole in the metal plate. You will have a round peg the size of the hole.Ebony is pretty hard and expensive ,walnut might be better,you won't need much. Drilling by hand should be fine.
If you do decide to get a dado blade later on make sure your saw can take one,some of the smaller saws are not set up for dado blades.


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## Wodin (Oct 28, 2013)

Jim,
I used the method you described for the mortise cut, and produced what you see here:


http://imgur.com/v1bAJ


The only problem I ran into was that my 10" saw blade couldn't get deep enough for the mortise according to the calculations. Looking at it though, I think it will end up just fine. Tomorrow I need to get the router out and go over those pieces to create the tenons.

I'll see what I can round up for the pegs, though in all likelihood actually securing it all will have to wait until after the move.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

I'm confused ,I don't see the end boards and it looks like you took the center section apart(see post #23) ?? The only parts you need to groove are the end boards and that groove needs to be an inch or so deep , you need to route the tongue when the center is together .Did you take it apart to glue together? if so you need to get some new glue ,don't use your out of date glue.


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## Wodin (Oct 28, 2013)

I disassembled what I had done with the pocket holes on the end pieces so I could M&T the end pieces and remaining tabletop. I uploaded another image with some labels (albeit small ones) which hopefully lay out what I hope will turn out alright.



http://imgur.com/v1bAJ


What do you think?


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Oh okay I can see all the labels after zooming in on the photos. I see the top is still together. I was not able to see the photo of the table until now because the link would not open.Now after seeing the labels and the photo of the table I see that the end boards(bread board ends) are huge,and that you have two pieces to your end boards. When you asked about gluing boards together were you asking about gluing the end boards together ? if the two end board is what you were asking about gluing together then that's fine, but don't glue the end board to the part of the table that has the tenon. If the end boards are that big then the tongue(tenon) should be much larger say 2". I would never design end boards that large but maybe it will be ok with a large tenon.


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