# The Origins of Christmas Customs



## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

*IF YOU EVER REALLY WONDERED ABOUT CHRISTMAS, then here is some history to consider:*

ORIGINAL SOURCE

*A. The Origin of Christmas Tree*
Just as early Christians recruited Roman pagans by associating Christmas with the Saturnalia, so too worshippers of the Asheira cult and its offshoots were recruited by the Church sanctioning "Christmas Trees".[7] Pagans had long worshipped trees in the forest, or brought them into their homes and decorated them, and this observance was adopted and painted with a Christian veneer by the Church.

*B. The Origin of Mistletoe*
Norse mythology recounts how the god Balder was killed using a mistletoe arrow by his rival god Hoder while fighting for the female Nanna. Druid rituals use mistletoe to poison their human sacrificial victim.[8] The Christian custom of "kissing under the mistletoe" is a later synthesis of the sexual license of Saturnalia with the Druidic sacrificial cult.[9]

*C. The Origin of Christmas Presents*
In pre-Christian Rome, the emperors compelled their most despised citizens to bring offerings and gifts during the Saturnalia (in December) and Kalends (in January). Later, this ritual expanded to include gift-giving among the general populace. The Catholic Church gave this custom a Christian flavor by re-rooting it in the supposed gift-giving of Saint Nicholas (see below).[10]

*D. The Origin of Santa Claus*
a. Nicholas was born in Parara, Turkey in 270 CE and later became Bishop of Myra. He died in 345 CE on December 6th. He was only named a saint in the 19th century.

b. Nicholas was among the most senior bishops who convened the Council of Nicaea in 325 CE and created the New Testament. The text they produced portrayed Jews as "the children of the devil"11 who sentenced Jesus to death.

c. In 1087, a group of sailors who idolized Nicholas moved his bones from Turkey to a sanctuary in Bari, Italy. There Nicholas supplanted a female boon-giving deity called The Grandmother, or Pasqua Epiphania, who used to fill the children's stockings with her gifts. The Grandmother was ousted from her shrine at Bari, which became the center of the Nicholas cult. Members of this group gave each other gifts during a pageant they conducted annually on the anniversary of Nicholas' death, December 6.

d. The Nicholas cult spread north until it was adopted by German and Celtic pagans. These groups worshipped a pantheon led by Woden -their chief god and the father of Thor, Balder, and Tiw. Woden had a long, white beard and rode a horse through the heavens one evening each Autumn. When Nicholas merged with Woden, he shed his Mediterranean appearance, grew a beard, mounted a flying horse, rescheduled his flight for December, and donned heavy winter clothing.

e. In a bid for pagan adherents in Northern Europe, the Catholic Church adopted the Nicholas cult and taught that he did (and they should) distribute gifts on December 25th instead of December 6th.

f. In 1809, the novelist Washington Irving (most famous his The Legend of Sleepy Hollow and Rip Van Winkle) wrote a satire of Dutch culture entitled Knickerbocker History. The satire refers several times to the white bearded, flying-horse riding Saint Nicholas using his Dutch name, Santa Claus.

g. Dr. Clement Moore, a professor at Union Seminary, read Knickerbocker History, and in 1822 he published a poem based on the character Santa Claus: "Twas the night before Christmas, when all through the house, not a creature was stirring, not even a mouse. The stockings were hung by the chimney with care, in the hope that Saint Nicholas soon would be there…" Moore innovated by portraying a Santa with eight reindeer who descended through chimneys.

h. The Bavarian illustrator Thomas Nast almost completed the modern picture of Santa Claus. From 1862 through 1886, based on Moore's poem, Nast drew more than 2,200 cartoon images of Santa for Harper's Weekly. Before Nast, Saint Nicholas had been pictured as everything from a stern looking bishop to a gnome-like figure in a frock. Nast also gave Santa a home at the North Pole, his workshop filled with elves, and his list of the good and bad children of the world. All Santa was missing was his red outfit.

i. In 1931, the Coca Cola Corporation contracted the Swedish commercial artist Haddon Sundblom to create a coke-drinking Santa. Sundblom modeled his Santa on his friend Lou Prentice, chosen for his cheerful, chubby face. The corporation insisted that Santa's fur-trimmed suit be bright, Coca Cola red. And Santa was born - a blend of Christian crusader, pagan god, and commercial idol.

*The Christmas Challenge*

· Christmas has always been a holiday celebrated carelessly. For millennia, pagans, Christians, and even Jews have been swept away in the season's festivities, and very few people ever pause to consider the celebration's intrinsic meaning, history, or origins.

· Christmas celebrates the birth of the Christian god who came to rescue mankind from the "curse of the Torah." It is a 24-hour declaration that Judaism is no longer valid.

· Christmas is a lie. There is no Christian church with a tradition that Jesus was really born on December 25th.

· December 25 is a day on which Jews have been shamed, tortured, and murdered.

· Many of the most popular Christmas customs - including Christmas trees, mistletoe, Christmas presents, and Santa Claus - are modern incarnations of the most depraved pagan rituals ever practiced on earth.

Many who are excitedly preparing for their Christmas celebrations would prefer not knowing about the holiday's real significance. If they do know the history, they often object that their celebration has nothing to do with the holiday's monstrous history and meaning. "We are just having fun."

Imagine that between 1933-45, the Nazi regime celebrated Adolf Hitler's birthday - April 20 - as a holiday. Imagine that they named the day, "Hitlerday," and observed the day with feasting, drunkenness, gift-giving, and various pagan practices. Imagine that on that day, Jews were historically subject to perverse tortures and abuse, and that this continued for centuries.

Now, imagine that your great-great-great-grandchildren were about to celebrate Hitlerday. April 20th arrived. They had long forgotten about Auschwitz and Bergen Belsen. They had never heard of gas chambers or death marches. They had purchased champagne and caviar, and were about to begin the party, when someone reminded them of the day's real history and their ancestors' agony. Imagine that they initially objected, "We aren't celebrating the Holocaust; we're just having a little Hitlerday party." If you could travel forward in time and meet them; if you could say a few words to them, what would you advise them to do on Hitlerday?

On December 25, 1941, Julius Streicher, one of the most vicious of Hitler's assistants, celebrated Christmas by penning the following editorial in his rabidly Antisemitic newspaper, Der Stuermer:

If one really wants to put an end to the continued prospering of this curse from heaven that is the Jewish blood, there is only one way to do it: to eradicate this people, this Satan's son, root and branch.

It was an appropriate thought for the day. This Christmas, how will we celebrate?
AUTHOR: LAWRENCE KELEMEN
http://www.simpletoremember.com/


----------



## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

The more I have looked into this issue, the more I truly begin to understand why many existing and competing religions of Christianity become so upset at the Christian faith. I do a lot of web browsing on the current political scene because of the Far Right Wing's absurd postings, however, running across this account of history and interpretation of the winter holidays according to Judaism, I had to stop and take note. Being agnostic myself, that itself came as a surprise to me.

History is often written by the victors and those victors have their own biases. On rare occasions we get to here about competing interpretations of historical significance. This is one of those times. I was raised as a Christian, but grew out of that faith as I observed the many inconsistencies of the Christian faith and became
agnostic. If I were to adopt some religious faith again, I would seriously consider Judaism.

While I prefer, and have pleaded for LJs to ban politics and religion from the site, LJs admin have NOT chosen to do so. Since that is so, I have chosen to share my thoughts as openly as anyone on this site. When and if the policy changes, I will abide accordingly.
Michael


----------



## NH_Hermit (Dec 3, 2009)

Michael, I do agree with you here, so much so that I left the church entirely during my master's studies in history at Harvard and my acceptance at the seminary. Specifically it was a course in the history of Rome that the seed sprouted. But my reasons went a bit beyond what you've stated here. Probably the main reason was that throughout our Christian history of blame, wars, bloodshed, and hypocrisy, one small concept had seemed to be forgotten or overlaid with ritual and self-righteousness - the original message of the carpenter.

Now after many years, I've reconciled Christmas as a time set aside from our busy business of living and recall this simple message and find great enjoyment in family and friends. I enjoy wishing people Merry Christmas. I enjoy buying my wife a special gift and hiding it my workshop until Christmas Eve. I like the way she's decorated the house and made it feel warm and full of love. And I do like the one great gift the church as fostered - the music. Mozart's Mass in C still brings a tear to my eye.

And each year I hope that the simple message will somehow encourage someone to give a turkey to the Salvation Army, or pay off someone's K-Mart layaway, or just give a neighbor a plate of cookies.

So I do wish you and all my friends here in the forum a Merry Christmas, and may all your neighbors get a plate of cookies.

Sorry, but I am an incurable romantic.


----------



## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

John,
I appreciate the post and feel good about the Winter Holidays, though I will continue to refuse to call it Christmas, because it infers that we ignore/defer all other celebrations such as Hanukkah, Winter Solstice, Bodhi Day, NeoPegan rituals, the Hajj, etc. to Christianity in its entirety. Christianity, by its very nature moved/adopted THEIR holidays in order to directly compete with these other belief systems. As I have stated many times in the political threads, I HATE all bullies, be they political OR religious.

Please do not take offense if you are just practicing your own beliefs for yourself/family. I only get upset at having things shoved down my throat by bullies and the bully media. I push back at those bullies.

Happy Holidays
Michael


----------



## dakremer (Dec 8, 2009)

There's no christian church that believes Jesus was born on Dec 25th? I'm Catholic and we believe Jesus was born on Christmas….......That's what Christmas is - the birthday of Jesus. I don't understand…..

I'm not trying to start a fight with u, but if u PLEADED with LJ's to ban politics and religion from LJs, why r u posting a controversial religious/historical topic? Change of heart?


----------



## ellen35 (Jan 1, 2009)

What difference does it make what church or religion you belong to… or whether you belong to a religion at all.
What is important at this time of year and all through the year is that we act with kindness, generosity and caring toward others. It is not what group we belong to but rather how we live that gives our lives meaning.
Ellen


----------



## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

We are all entitled to think what we may ,one can list how things come about in religion, science, economics or what ever subject a person might select. Because we find information on line,in books or from some source of formal education it is all subject to how much we believe what ever source we gather our information from. So in short what ever we believe is based on faith of some sort, faith in God faith in what ever source we choose to believe. Some people will follow what science calls proof , others written information or what scholars have to say. Folks that ask me to prove there's a God, I tell them that religions are based on faith and in my way of thinking so is every thing else. I agree with Ellen about making this a time of year being a great time to express joy,kindness and generosity no matter what your religious beliefs are.
Merry Christmas and a happy new year.


----------



## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

NH_Hermit: You summed up my feelings perfectly!


----------



## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Thank you Ellen, Jim, and Charlie. Doug, I hold no grudge, but do urge you to look deeper as you grow older. Not always, but age does tend to temper/alter ones interpretation of their surroundings. Enjoy your Holidays, what ever they may be.

Doug, my only point is and has been is to show just how volatile these topics are. I am willing to take the heat to show others why we should NOT have politics and religion posted within LJs, as odd as that may sound.


----------



## ellen35 (Jan 1, 2009)

Mike,
I may look young… but you can't tell a book by its cover ;-)
Ellen


----------



## gfadvm (Jan 13, 2011)

a1Jim, You summed up my sentiments exactly! Thank you and MERRY CHRISTMAS


----------



## derosa (Aug 21, 2010)

That's a nice antagonistic bent on Christmas you have there, just enough historicity there to make it sound good but not enough to actually be the real story. I especially like the Hitler part, nothing gets people irrational and non-thinking so that they'll blindly follow what you say as making the comparison to Hitler. Of course Christmas is founded on celebrating the birth of someone who called for peace, love and non-violence and who didn't espouse the murder of millions but otherwise your comparison does somehow work if your mind is twisted enough. 
Yep, most denominations agree that Christ wasn't born on the 25th, sometime in May sounds about right, but then not all denominations celebrate it on the 25th, you've missed the entire Eastern Orthodox who have a different day entirely. You've discovered nothing new.

Your origin of the Christmas tree is entirely wrong, not even remotely close. The cult of Asheira is eastern and centered in the Holy Land, you can find references to then in the Old Testament; for more information on them try Did God Have a Wife by Bill Deaver who does a great job of exploring the significance of the cult in the OT. Either way they disappeared by Christ's time, Josiah does a real good job of oppressing them and they do disappear from the Archaeological record. I'm sure the rest of the examples are equally as accurate.

Yes, throughout time, starting with Constantine the church is adopted and co-opted by the state. However that doesn't mean that you should demonize everything about the religion for what a few did vs. what the many have tried to do. It is easy to hang onto witches and crusades and ignore all the Salvation Army ringers that are out there collecting funds to help the poor. It's easy to overlook Catholic Charities who supply free clothing, food, shelter, and even half-way houses. It's easy to ignore the churches that house the food pantries that supply needed items for millions who would otherwise fall through the cracks of a broken system. Sure, some have taken advantage of religion and killed millions in the name of Christ driving others to join them in their madness over the last 2 thousand years. But this year I helped package 450 Christmas baskets that included dinners, gifts, and clothing to families and shut-ins that needed them to actually have a holiday. I was joined by thousands more just like me who cheerfully gave of their time, money and energy across this world so that others might also have a cheerful holiday and something to be thankful for. Your demonization of a holiday that celebrates the birth of a being who never asked for the evil that was conducted in His name and who offered love is small and petty. Try celebrating what this holiday is supposed to mean and look to those who are celebrating it for what it is really about; and merry Christmas.


----------



## fussy (Jan 18, 2010)

Mike,

As long as I've been around this site, I've thought of you as something of a renaissance man; ie., someone who is open-minded, interested in many things, with the intellect to sort through the bs to find the truth and make the connections.

I don't like the heavy-handedness of some of the Christian faith. Funny; faith is defined as the ability to accept a concept without proof, yet they continually try to 'prove' the articles of their "faith' while demonizing all concepts that threaten or disagree with it. In the last 200 years, religious scholars and historians have tried and failed to find proof of his birth, life, deeds, or death. Religious scholars and historians have pretty much concluded that any attempt to prove Jesus' existence through historical records is a lost cause. The gospels don't agree, and in 1906, Albert Schweitzer lamented that efforts to bring Jesus "into our time as teacher and saviour….Coming to the results, there is nothing more negative than the result of the critical study of the Life of Jesus. The Jesus od Nazareth who came forward publicly as the Messiah, who preached the ethic of the Kingdom of God, who founded the Kingdom of Heaven upon earth, and died to give his work its final consecration, never had any existence. This image has not been been destroyed from without. It has fallen to pieces, cleft and disintegrated by the concrete historical problems which came to the surface one after another, and in concrete historical problems which came to the surface one after another,and in spite of all the artifice, art, artificiality, and violence which was applied to them, refused to be planed down to fit the design on which Jesus of the theology of the last hundred and thirty years had been constructed and were no sooner covered than they appeared again in a new form" He concludes, "We thought it was for us to lead our time by the roundaout way through the historical Jesus, as we understand him, in order to bring it to the Jesus who is a spiritual power in the present. This roundabout way has now been closed by genuine history". James P. Mackay confirmed Schweitzer in that is was in the previous 200 years that people took confidence in the trusty methods of science and that they could , through scientific history make the real Jesus stand up. And with that confidence produced one version after another, each disturbingly different from the one before..Pessimism spreaqd far beyond the confines of professional scholarship:The 'real Jesus' could not be found. History is full of efforts past and current to 'prove Jesus'existence much less his divinity that have failed miserably.

The point is, if you have faith, you don't need proof. If you don't need proof, you don't have to be RIGHT ALL the time, and you shouldn't probably try to damn anyone who disagrees to Hell (where geographicaly is 
Hell and do you have that power anyway?). If yow want to celebrate cHRISTMAS, do so, but don't be upset at others who have a different take on the season.

Mike, I thank you for a thought-provoking post, wish you and everyone a Happy Holiday season, stay safe, and if you, Mike should ever find your way into Judaism, I would say, "Mazel Toff, my frieND.

Steve


----------



## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

*Reverend Russ SAID: That's a nice antagonistic bent on Christmas you have there, just enough historicity there to make it sound good but not enough to actually be the real story. I especially like the Hitler part, nothing gets people irrational and non-thinking so that they'll blindly follow what you say as making the comparison to Hitler.*

Wow Russ, how can you explain what you just said as any but a cheap shot? My posts above, including the OP, come from Jewish scholars. The Jews and Armenians suffered terribly at the hands of Adolph Hitler during WWII, and YOU want to reduce that fact to a mere "sound-byte" (AKA Godwin's Law)?

For you to call yourself a reverend of anything is an unbelievable stretch, especially following the posting of such a comment in reference to religious beliefs. I fear for those who could fall under your sphere of influence.


----------



## NH_Hermit (Dec 3, 2009)

Mike, no offense taken here. At 68, I tend not to get upset about too many things. I'm glad to see that at Ellen's tender age, she's learned the same. In fact, I've enjoyed your role here as the protagonist several times.

Want to add just one more tidbit to your argument about the Christmas myth? The Romans actually kept pretty good governmental records back then and there is no record that Augustus called for an empire-wide taxation. There was a census taken but that was ordered by Cyrenius, or Quiribius, somewhere around 6 or 7 CE. Normally I'd take the time to site my sources, but I'm told it's time to open some gifts.

So back to the simple message of the Carpenter - Happy Winter Festive to you and yours.


----------



## derosa (Aug 21, 2010)

My shot was no cheaper then your own. You decided to post something that is a slam on a holiday that is meant to celebrate something good by comparing it to a fictional holiday about someone who was purely evil. No amount of corruption can destroy the meaning of Christ's gift to us, just as if such a holiday were created could it make good the evil that was Hitler. Just as people will now scream terrorist to get others' attention and get them blindly following without thinking your use of a comparison fictional holiday about Hitler serves the same purpose and you know it. I'm not marginalizing what they did, I'm marginalizing this lame attempt to demonize the holiday through comparing the actions of some Christians who have done evil in God's name with Nazis. The fact that Hitler was even introduced says that this isn't meant to get people thinking, just reacting in a negative fashion.

The fact that the original post was written by Jews does nothing to authenticate the historicity you are claiming, theirs is just one more perspective. How much less biased are they that they refer to the pagan rituals as "depraved" even those most weren't. Wikipedia has scholars involved in it as well, doesn't mean the whole thing is accurate nor that many parts of it don't have a bias based on who wrote it. This very sentence *Christmas celebrates the birth of the Christian god who came to rescue mankind from the "curse of the Torah." It is a 24-hour declaration that Judaism is no longer valid"*only points to the intrinsic bias that is this whole piece. Reading the new testament would tell you just how invalid this very statement is.

As to the co-opting of religious holidays by other religions; it is nothing new. Christianity wasn't the first by far and the fact is old news. It does however help to create a rich tradition for new adherents from their old faiths; some of which were no where near as evil as this piece cares to paint them. But to know that would also require real scholarship and research. Something this piece doesn't do since it prefers to rely on shock value in the hopes of a non-thinking response.

As for me, my parishioners like me a lot and I lead them well regardless of what you might think. 
Merry Christmas.


----------



## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Russ,
By your own admission December 25th is not Jesus birthday. That is a lie. So what else is NOT true about YOUR religion? Why are there NO written records that can be carbon dated to Jesus' time, only records to the time of Constantine and his writers in the 300s AD?

BTW, you entirely missed the analogy. Shall we use the Crusades? The Inquisition? The Salem Witch Trials? And as far as Constantine purportedly *CO-OPTING Christianity*, HE invented it. And just what DID happen after the Council of Nicea?

*JUST from the Council of Nicea in 314AD through the end of THAT century*, consider these atrocities that make Hitler look like a rookie when compared to what the Christians did/do to non-believers. BTW, the Jewish scholars that you attempt to marginalize, were actually being kind in their analogy. A true comparison of Christian atrocities to Hitler's is much worse (See below):

314 *Immediately after its full legalization, the Christian Church attacks 
non-Christians.* The Council of Ancyra denounces the worship of Goddess 
Artemis.

324 *The emperor Constantine declares Christianity as the only official 
religion of the Roman Empire.* In Dydima, Minor Asia, he sacks the Oracle of 
the god Apollo and tortures the pagan priests to death. He also evicts all 
non-Christian peoples from Mount Athos and destroys all the local Hellenic 
temples.

325 Nicene Council. *The god-man gets a promotion: 'Christ is Divine'*

326 Constantine, following the instructions of his mother Helen, destroys 
the temple of the god Asclepius in Aigeai Cilicia and many temples of the 
goddess Aphrodite in Jerusalem, Aphaca, Mambre, Phoenicia, Baalbek, etc.

330 *Constantine steals the treasures and statues of the pagan temples* of 
Greece to decorate Constantinople, the new capital of his Empire.

335 *Constantine* sacks many pagan temples in Asia Minor and Palestine and 
*orders the execution by crucifixion of "all magicians and soothsayers."*
Martyrdom of the neoplatonist philosopher Sopatrus.

341 Constantius II (Flavius Julius Constantius) persecutes "all the 
soothsayers and the Hellenists." Many gentile Hellenes are either imprisoned 
or executed.

346 New large scale persecutions against non-Christian peoples in 
Constantinople. Banishment of the famous orator Libanius accused as a 
"magician".

353 An edict of *Constantius orders the death penalty for all kind of worship 
through sacrifice and "idols".*

354 *A new edict orders the closing of all the pagan temples. Some of them 
are profaned and turned into brothels or gambling rooms.*

*Execution of pagan priests begins.*

A new edict of Constantius orders the destruction of the pagan temples and 
the execution of all "idolaters".

*First burning of libraries in various cities of the empire.*

The first lime factories are organized next to the closed pagan temples. A 
major part of the holy architecture of the pagans is turned into lime.

357 Constantius outlaws all methods of divination (astrology not excluded).

359 In Skythopolis, Syria, the *Christians organize the first death camps for 
the torture and executions of the arrested non-Christians from all around 
the empire.*

361 to 363 Religious tolerance and restoration of the pagan cults is 
declared in Constantinople (11th December 361) by the pagan emperor Julian 
(Flavius Claudius Julianus).

363 Assassination of Julian (26th June).

364 Emperor Jovian orders the burning of the Library of Antioch.

An Imperial edict (11th September) orders the death penalty for all those 
that worship their ancestral gods or practice divination ("sileat omnibus 
perpetuo divinandi curiositas").

Three different edicts (4th February, 9th September, 23rd December) order 
the confiscation of all properties of the pagan temples and the *death 
penalty for participation in pagan rituals, even private ones.*

The Church Council of Laodicea (Phrygia - western Asia Minor) orders that 
religious observances are to be conducted on Sunday and not on Saturday. 
Sunday becomes the new Sabbath. The practice of staying at home and resting 
on Saturday declared sinful and anathema to Christ.

365 An imperial edict from Emperor Valens, a zealous Arian Christian (17th 
November), forbids pagan officers of the army to command Christian soldiers.

370 *Valens orders a tremendous persecution of non-Christian peoples in all 
the Eastern Empire. *In Antioch, among many other non-Christians, the 
ex-governor Fidustius and the priests Hilarius and Patricius are executed. 
The *philosopher Simonides is burned alive and the philosopher Maximus is 
decapitated.* All the friends of Julian are persecuted (Orebasius, 
Sallustius, Pegasius etc.).

*Tons of books are burnt in the squares of the cities of the Eastern Empire.*

372 Valens orders the governor of Minor Asia to exterminate all the Hellenes 
and all documents of their wisdom.

373 New prohibition of all divination methods is issued. *The term "pagan" *
(pagani, villagers, equivalent to the modern insult, "peasants")* is 
introduced by the Christians to demean non-believers.*

375 The temple of Asclepius in Epidaurus, Greece, is closed down by the 
Christians.

380 On 27th February Christianity becomes the exclusive religion of the 
Roman Empire by an edict of the Emperor Flavius Theodosius, requiring that:

"All the various nations which are subject to our clemency and moderation 
should continue in the profession of that religion which was delivered to 
the Romans by the divine Apostle Peter."

*The non-Christians are called "loathsome, heretics, stupid and blind".*

In another edict, Theodosius calls "insane" those that do not believe to the 
Christian God and outlaws all disagreement with the Church dogmas.

Ambrosius, bishop of Milan, begins the destruction of pagan temples of his 
area. The Christian priests lead the hungry mob against the temple of 
goddess Demeter in Eleusis and try to lynch the hierophants Nestorius and 
Priskus. The 95 year old hierophant Nestorius ends the Eleusinian Mysteries 
and announces "the predominance of mental darkness over the human race."

381 At the Council of Constantinople the 'Holy Spirit' is declared 'Divine' 
(thus sanctioning a triune god). On 2nd May, Theodosius deprives of all 
their rights any Christians who return to the pagan religion. Throughout the 
Eastern Empire the pagan temples and libraries are looted or burned down. On 
21st December, Theodosius outlaws visits to Hellenic temples.

*In Constantinople, the Temple of Aphrodite is turned into a brothel and the 
temples of the Sun and Artemis to stables.*

382 "Hellelujah" ("Glory to Yahweh") is imposed in the Christian mass.

384 Theodosius orders the Praetorian Prefect Maternus Cynegius, a dedicated 
Christian, to cooperate with local bishops and destroy the temples of the 
pagans in Northern Greece and Minor Asia.

385 to 388 Prefect Maternus Cynegius, encouraged by his fanatic wife, and 
bishop 'Saint' Marcellus with his gangs, scour the countryside and sack and 
destroy hundreds of Hellenic temples, shrines and altars. Among others they 
destroy the temple of Edessa, the Cabeireion of Imbros, the temple of Zeus 
in Apamea, the temple of Apollo in Dydima and all the temples of Palmyra.

*Thousands of innocent pagans from all sides of the empire suffer martyrdom 
in the notorious death camps of Skythopolis.*

386 Theodosius outlaws the care of the sacked pagan temples.

388 Public talks on religious subjects are outlawed by Theodosius. The old 
orator Libanius sends his famous epistle "Pro Templis" to Theodosius with 
the hope that the few remaining Hellenic temples will be respected and 
spared.

389 to 390 *All non-Christian calendars and dating-methods are outlawed. *
Hordes of fanatic hermits from the desert flood the cities of the Middle 
East and Egypt and destroy statues, altars, libraries and pagan temples, and 
lynch the pagans.* Theophilus, Patriarch of Alexandria, starts heavy 
persecutions against non-Christian peoples,* turning the temple of Dionysius 
into a Christian church, burning down the Mithraeum of the city, destroying 
the temple of Zeus and burlesques the *pagan priests* before they* are killed 
by stoning. The Christian mob profanes the cult images.*

391 On 24th February, a new edict of Theodosius prohibits not only visits to 
pagan temples but also looking at the vandalized statues. New heavy 
persecutions occur all around the empire. In Alexandria, Egypt, pagans, led 
by the philosopher Olympius, revolt and after some street fights they lock 
themselves inside the fortified temple of the god Serapis (the Serapeion). 
*After a violent siege, the Christians take over the building, demolish it, 
burn its famous library and profane the cult images.*

392 On 8th November, Theodosius outlaws all the non-Christian rituals and 
names them "superstitions of the gentiles" (gentilicia superstitio). New 
full scale persecutions are ordered against pagans. The Mysteries of 
Samothrace are ended and the priests slaughtered. In Cyprus the local bishop 
"Saint" Epiphanius and "Saint" Tychon destroy almost all the temples of the 
island and exterminate thousands of non-Christians. The local Mysteries of 
goddess Aphrodite are ended. Theodosius's edict declares:

"The ones that won't obey pater Epiphanius have no right to keep living in 
that island."

The pagans revolt against the Emperor and the Church in Petra, Aeropolis, 
Rafia, Gaza, Baalbek and other cities of the Middle East.

393 The Pythian Games, the Aktia Games and the Olympic Games are outlawed as 
part of the Hellenic "idolatry". The Christians sack the temples of Olympia.

395 Two new edicts (22nd July and 7th August) cause new persecutions against 
pagans. Rufinus, the eunuch Prime Minister of Emperor Flavius Arcadius 
directs the hordes of baptized Goths (led by Alaric) to the country of the 
Hellenes. *Encouraged by Christian monks the barbarians sack and burn many 
cities* (Dion, Delphi, Megara, Corinth, Pheneos, Argos, Nemea, Lycosoura, 
Sparta, Messene, Phigaleia, Olympia, etc.), slaughter or enslave innumerable 
gentile Hellenes and burn down all the temples. Among others, they burn down 
the Eleusinian Sanctuary and burn alive all its priests (including the 
hierophant of Mithras Hilarius).

396 *On 7th December, a new edict by Arcadius orders that paganism be treated 
as high treason. Imprisonment of the few remaining pagan priests and 
hierophants.*

397 "Demolish them!" Flavius Arcadius orders that all the still standing 
pagan temples be demolished.

398 The 4th Church Council of Carthage prohibits everybody, including 
Christian bishops, from studying pagan books. Porphyrius, bishop of Gaza, 
demolishes almost all the pagan temples of his city (except nine of them 
that remain active).

399 *With a new edict (13th July) Flavius Arcadius orders all remaining pagan 
temples, mainly in the countryside, be immediately demolished.*

*THE FORTH CENTURY SHOW US EVEN MORE CHRISTIAN HOSTILITY TOWARD OTHERS
Just a sampling here as the list is LONG:*

401 The *Christian mob of Carthage lynches non-Christians and destroys 
temples and "idols".* In Gaza too, the local bishop "Saint" Porphyrius sends 
his *followers to lynch pagans* and to demolish the remaining nine still 
active temples of the city.

407 A new edict outlaws once more all the non-Christian acts of worship.

408 The emperor of the Western Empire, Honorius, and the emperor of the 
Eastern Empire, Arcadius, order all the sculptures of the pagan temples to 
be either destroyed or to be taken away. Private ownership of pagan 
sculpture is also outlawed. The *local bishops lead new heavy persecutions 
against the pagans and new book burning. *The judges that have pity for the 
pagans are also persecuted. "Saint" Augustine massacres hundreds of 
protesting pagans in Calama, Algeria.

409 Another *edict orders all methods of divination including astrology to be 
punished by death.*

415 In Alexandria, the *Christian mob*, urged by the bishop Cyril, *attacks* a 
few days before the Judeo-Christian Pascha (Easter) *and cuts to pieces the 
famous and beautiful philosopher Hypatia. The pieces of her body, carried 
around by the Christian mob through the streets of Alexandria, are finally 
burned together with her books in a place called Cynaron.*

On 30th August, *new persecutions start against all the pagan priests of 
North Africa who end their lives either crucified or burned alive. *Emperor 
Theodosius II expels the Jews from Alexandria.

416 The inquisitor Hypatius, alias "The Sword of God", exterminates the last 
pagans of Bithynia. In Constantinople (7th December) all non-Christian army 
officers, public employees and judges are dismissed.

423* Emperor Theodosius II declares (8th June) that the religion of the 
pagans is nothing more than "demon worship" and orders all those who persist 
in practicing it to be punished by imprisonment and torture.*

435 On 14th November, a new edict by *Theodosius II orders the death penalty 
for all "heretics" and pagans of the empire.* Only Judaism is considered a 
legal non-Christian religion.

440 to 450 The Christians demolish all the monuments, altars and temples of 
Athens, Olympia, and other Greek cities.

*book burning
448 Theodosius II orders all non-Christian books to be burned.*

450 *All the temples of Aphrodisias (the City of the Goddess Aphrodite) are 
demolished and all its libraries burned down.* The city is renamed 
Stavroupolis (City of the Cross).

451 Council of Chalcedon. *New edict by Theodosius II (4th November) 
emphasizes that "idolatry" is punished by death.*

457 to 491 Sporadic persecutions against the pagans of the Eastern Empire. 
Among others, the physician Jacobus and the philosopher Gessius are 
executed. Severianus, Herestios, Zosimus, Isidorus and others are tortured 
and imprisoned. The proselytizer Conon and his followers exterminate the 
last non-Christians of Imbros Island, Northeast Aegean Sea. *The last 
worshippers of Lavranius Zeus are exterminated in Cyprus.*
482 to 488 The majority of the pagans of Minor Asia are exterminated after a 
desperate revolt against the emperor and the Church.

*486 More "underground" pagan priests are discovered, arrested, burlesqued, 
tortured and executed in Alexandria, Egypt.*

*The emperor of Constantinople, Anastasius, orders the massacre of the pagans *
in the Arabian city Zoara and the demolition of the temple of local god 
Theandrites.

Original Source
Original Source: Vlasis Rassias, Demolish Them!
Published in Greek, Athens 1994


----------



## derosa (Aug 21, 2010)

*By your own admission December 25th is not Jesus birthday. That is a lie. So what else is NOT true about YOUR religion? Why are there NO written records that can be carbon dated to Jesus' time, only records to the time of Constantine and his writers in the 300s AD?
BTW, you entirely missed the analogy. Shall we use the Crusades? The Inquisition? The Salem Witch Trials? And as far as Constantine purportedly CO-OPTING Christianity, HE invented it. And just what DID happen after the Council of Nicea?*
My religion doesn't state that Dec 25th is his birthday, my denomination states that this is when will we choose to celebrate it. Some time in May would be more appropriate but the date is fine, there is no lie involved. We also have plenty of records that pre-date Constantine, none to the exact time of Jesus but to try and claim that Constantine invented Christianity is the very height of absurdity and completely ignores the historical and archaeological record. Look up Josephus for a brief mid to late first century account of the historical Jesus. Try Pliny the Younger for a 2nd century account of dealing with the Christians not to mention any number of imperial edicts involving Christians in the first three centuries.

*JUST from the Council of Nicea in 314AD through the end of THAT century, consider these atrocities that make Hitler look like a rookie when compared to what the Christians did/do to non-believers. BTW, the Jewish scholars that you attempt to marginalize, were actually being kind in their analogy. A true comparison of Christian atrocities to Hitler's is much worse (See below):*
To claim that this list in any way, shape or form can put Christianity on the same line as Hitler means that you have no comprehension of what Hitler really did or just what the scale of these events really were. To assume that all Christians were in full support in comparison would be to claim that all of Europe were involved in the atrocities that Germany committed. Not that all of them are entirely accurate but even if they were it wouldn't matter even if you tossed in the crusades, the inquisition and the salem witch trials. It isn't that I missed the analogy, it is that you don't understand the analogy; it is your lack of comprehension and the numbers involved that allows you to some how think there is a comparison that sickens me. The fact that you somehow believe that all of Christianity should be lumped in with these events, including the modern churches only serves to make it worse.


----------



## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Russ SAID: Constantine invented Christianity is the very height of absurdity and completely ignores the historical and archaeological record. Look up Josephus for a brief mid to late first century account of the historical Jesus.

Well Russ, I DID JUST THAT. And this is what I found,... The writings of Josephus were christianized/doctored. And just guess WHEN? By golly it was in the 4th Century (AKA 300s AD). Quite a coincidence huh? Oh, and I want to point out from my PREVIOUS post that Constantine and his son conducted a series of book-burnings of libraries throughout the empire. No wonder all the books carbon date to the 4th century huh…

The Jesus Forgery: Josephus Untangled
by Acharya S/D.M. Murdock

*Despite the best wishes of sincere believers and the erroneous claims of truculent apologists, the Testimonium Flavianum has been demonstrated continually over the centuries to be a forgery, likely interpolated by Catholic Church historian Eusebius in the fourth century.* So thorough and universal has been this debunking that very few scholars of repute continued to cite the passage after the turn of the 19th century. Indeed, the TF was rarely mentioned, except to note that it was a forgery, and numerous books by a variety of authorities over a period of 200 or so years basically took it for granted that the Testimonium Flavianum in its entirety was spurious, an interpolation and a forgery. As Dr. Gordon Stein relates:

"...the vast majority of scholars since the early 1800s have said that this quotation is not by Josephus, but rather is a later Christian insertion in his works. In other words, it is a forgery, rejected by scholars."

So well understood was this fact of forgery that these numerous authorities did not spend their precious time and space rehashing the arguments against the TF's authenticity. Nevertheless, in the past few decades apologists of questionable integrity and credibility have glommed onto the TF, because this short and dubious passage represents the most "concrete" secular, non-biblical reference to a man who purportedly shook up the world. In spite of the past debunking, the debate is currently confined to those who think the TF was original to Josephus but was Christianized, and those who credulously and self-servingly accept it as "genuine" in its entirety.

*To repeat, this passage was so completely dissected by scholars of high repute and standing-the majority of them pious Christians-that it was for decades understood by subsequent scholars as having been proved in toto a forgery, such that these succeeding scholars did not even mention it, unless to acknowledge it as false.* (In addition to being repetitious, numerous quotes will be presented here, because a strong show of rational consensus is desperately needed when it comes to matters of blind, unscientific and irrational faith.) The scholars who so conclusively proved the TF a forgery made their mark at the end of the 18th century and into the 20th, when a sudden reversal was implemented, with popular opinion hemming and hawing its way back first to the "partial interpolation theory" and in recent times, among the third-rate apologists, to the notion that the whole TF is "genuine." As Earl Doherty says, in "Josephus Unbound":

"Now, it is a curious fact that older generations of scholars had no trouble dismissing this entire passage as a Christian construction. Charles Guignebert, for example, in his Jesus (1956, p.17), calls it 'a pure Christian forgery.' Before him, Lardner, Harnack and Schurer, along with others, declared it entirely spurious. Today, most serious scholars have decided the passage is a mix: original parts rubbing shoulders with later Christian additions."

*The earlier scholarship that proved the entire TF to be fraudulent was determined by intense scrutiny by some of the most erudite, and mainly Christian, writers of the time, in a number of countries, their works written in a variety of languages, but particularly German, French and English. *Their general conclusions, as elucidated by Christian authority Dr. Lardner, and related here by the author of Christian Mythology Unveiled (c. 1842), include the following reasons for doubting the authenticity of the TF as a whole:

"Mattathias, the father of Josephus, must have been a witness to the miracles which are said to have been performed by Jesus, and Josephus was born within two years after the crucifixion, yet in all the works he says nothing whatever about the life or death of Jesus Christ; as for the interpolated passage it is now universally acknowledged to be a forgery. The arguments of the 'Christian Ajax,' even Lardner himself, against it are these: 'It was never quoted by any of our Christian ancestors before Eusebius. It disturbs the narrative. The language is quite Christian. It is not quoted by Chrysostom, though he often refers to Josephus, and could not have omitted quoting it had it been then in the text. It is not quoted by Photius [9th century], though he has three articles concerning Josephus; and this author expressly states that this historian has not taken the least notice of Christ. Neither Justin Martyr, in his dialogue with Trypho the Jew; nor Clemens Alexandrinus, who made so many extracts from ancient authors; nor Origen against Celsus, have ever mentioned this testimony. But, on the contrary, in chap. 25th of the first book of that work, Origen openly affirms that Josephus, who had mentioned John the Baptist, did not acknowledge Christ. That this passage is a false fabrication is admitted by Ittigius, Blondel, Le Clerc, Vandale, Bishop Warburton, and Tanaquil Faber.'" (CMU, 47)

Hence, by the 1840's, when the anonymous author of Christian Mythology Unveiled wrote, the Testimonium Flavanium was already *"universally acknowledged to be a forgery."*


----------



## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

Do we really need / want more of these ticking time bomb discussions? As Cris Carter would say C'mon Man!

No matter what ive had a wonderful Christmas and hope the same can be said for everyone else out there no matter what their beliefs may be.


----------



## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

And I have enjoyed the Winter Solstice as well.


----------



## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

Mmm solstice .... sounds Italian.


----------



## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

It makes for some long nights for my astro-imaging of the sky, at least when its clear. ;-)










Oh yeah, let the competing religions fight over this one! The only hint I am giving is NGC2264 and it has religious significance. *;-)*


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

Interesting to raise the spectre of Hitler in a 'discussion' of Christmas. Looks like a tact Rove would employ.


----------



## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

I don't think Rove was Jewish, as was the author of the article. But if THAT was all you are concerned with then feel free to actually read the ENTIRE article HERE. Enjoy…

And BTW, I think you are confusing Godwin's Law with Karl Rove.


----------



## derosa (Aug 21, 2010)

Well played, you cited a quite fascinating looking web site to support your argument during the course of which three Christian authors are named that all long predate Constantine and your supposed creation of a religion that wasn't started till then. Nicely played, in case you missed them they are as follows
Origen 185-253
Justin Martyr circa 100-165
Clemens Alexandrinus ?-215

Having studied Latin for 5 years while going for a BA and MA in Mediterranean Archaeology and Greek and Roman Civ I got to read Josephus first hand and explore the issues involved in depth. This was at a SUNY college and long before starting ministry. The result of our readings and examinations is that the whole paragraph isn't authentic but enough of it is of the right style to suggest that there is in fact some true mention. 
I also pointed out Pliny the Younger who wrote to Trajan asking how to deal with those pesky Christians, and how the laws were to be applied to them on the basis of sex and status suggesting that there were already laws in place concerning them and that they were a know quantity, again, long before Constantine. I am now done with this argument as you have moved it well into the absurd.


----------



## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Russ,
So you actually do admit to these things concerning Josephus being less than truthful. I did not, at the time feel as if Pliny the Younger would add much to the conversation, however, such research only adds to the christ as a myth argument. "Chrestus" is NOT "Christus". The bottom line is that you are reaching at straws and have no historical nor scientific leg to stand on.

Original Source
...We now come to the Roman witnesses to the historicity of Jesus.

*Of the younger Pliny it is hardly necessary to speak further in this connection. He was dragged into the discussion of the "Christ-myth" at a late stage, merely to enlarge the list of witnesses to the historicity of Jesus. No one seriously believes that any such evidence is found in Pliny.[1]*

*In his correspondence with the Emperor Trajan, which is believed to have taken place about the year 113, and which is occupied with the question how Pliny, as Proconsul of the province of Bithynia in Asia Minor, was to behave in regard to the Christians, he informs the Emperor that the adherents of the sect sing hymns to Christ at daybreak "as if he were a god (quasi deo)." What this proves as regards the historical reality of the man Christ we should be pleased to have rationally explained.[2]*

What has been said on the subject up to the present is merely frivolous, adapted only to an utterly thoughtless circle of readers or hearers. Yet even a man like Jülicher does not hesitate to quote Pliny among the profane witnesses. He also mentions Marcus Aurelius, who expresses his anger against the Christians in his Meditations (about the year 175!), and assures us that what is meant there by Christianity is the community of those who believed in the Jesus of our and their gospels as their God and Saviour (p. 17). We are grateful for this "information," but we should have expected that a scholar like Jülicher would have something more serious to tell us on the subject.

There seems to be more significance in the words of the Roman historian Suetonius (77-140 A.D.), who tells us in his Life of Claudius (c. 25) that that emperor "expelled from Rome the Jews because, at the instigation of Chrestus, they were perpetually making trouble" (Claudius Judaeos impulsore Chresto assidue tumultuantes Roma expulit). If we only knew precisely who is meant by this Chrestus! *The name in the text is not "Christus," but "Chrestus" (and in some manuscripts Cherestus), which is by no means the usual designation of Jesus, while it is a common name, especially among Roman freedmen.* Hence the whole passage in Suetonius may have nothing whatever to do with the question of Christianity. It may just as well refer to any disturbances whatever caused among the Jews by a man named Chrestus, and it does not say much for the "scientific" spirit of theologians when they interpret it in their own sense without further ado.

An attempt has been made to connect the passage in Suetonius with the messianic expectation of the Jews, and to interpret it in the sense of referring either to quarrels in the Jewish community at Rome owing to the belief of those who held that Jesus was the Messiah they all expected, or to a general agitation of Roman Judaism on account of its messianic ideas and hostility to the pagan world. 
*The first alternative, however, is not very helpful in view of the fact that, when Paul came to Rome about ten years afterwards to preach the gospel, the Jews there seem to have known nothing whatever about Jesus; and, according to the account in Acts, his arrival led to no disturbance among them.[3]*

*The second alternative, on the other hand, contains no evidence for the historicity of Jesus, as, even if we substitute Christus for Chrestus, "Christus" is merely the Greek-Latin translation of "Messiah," and the phrase "at the instigation of Chrestus" would refer to the Messiah generally, and not at all necessarily to the particular Messiah Jesus as an historical personality.[4]*

In any case, however we interpret the passage of Suetonius, it has no bearing whatever on the question of the historicity of Jesus. Jülicher and Weinel admit this when they omit Suetonius in their enumeration of profane witnesses. J. Weiss also admits: "The passage in Suetonius relating to Jewish disturbances at Rome in the time of Claudius 'impulsore Chresto' betrays so inaccurate a knowledge of the facts that it cannot seriously be regarded as a witness" (p. 88).

*Notes*

1. ↑ It is characteristic of the tactics of our opponents that certain Catholic writers have begun to appeal to Porphyry, the Neoplatonic philosopher, who lived 232-304 A.D. He wrote many works against Christianity, which we know only indirectly from the refutations of Methodius and Eusebius. No one can say precisely what they contained, as the Emperor Theodosius II. prudently ordered them to be burned in public in the year 435. What does that matter to the theologian as long as he can bring one more name into the field?

2. ↑ Moreover, the genuineness of this correspondence of Pliny and Trajan is by no means certain. Justin does not mention it on an occasion when we should expect him to do so, and even Tertullian's supposed reference to it (Apol., cap. ii) is very doubtful. The tendency of the letters to put the Christians in as favourable a light as possible is too obvious not to excite some suspicion. For these and other reasons the correspondence was declared by experts to be spurious even at the time of its first publication, at the beginning of the sixteenth century; and recent authorities, such as Semler, Aubé (Histoire des Persecutions de l'Église, 1875, p. 215, etc.), Havet (Le Christianisme et ses Origines, 1884, iv, 8), and Hochart (Études au Sujet de la Persecution des Chretiens sous Neron, 1885, pp. 79-143; compare also Bruno Bauer, Christus und die Cäsaren, 1877, p. 268, etc., and the anonymously published work of Edwin Johnson, Antiqua Mater, 1887), which have disputed its authenticity, either as a whole or in material points.

3. ↑ Acts xxviii, 17, etc.

4. ↑ In his Geschichte der Römischen Kaiserzeit, Bd. I, Abt. I (1883), p. 447, Hermann Schiller also connects the expulsion of the Jews under Claudius with their domestic disturbances, and says: "It is time to desist from the practice of identifying the impulsor Chrestus in Suetonius with Christ. Words ending in 'tor' stand for a constant property, or an act that impresses a definite and permanent stamp on the subject in question; in neither case can we refer this to Christ, who had never been in Rome, and was no longer living; the activity of the impulsor can relate only to the assidue tumultuantes referred to."


----------



## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

It is clear Mike hates Christians.

I am not surprised as John 15:20 clearly tells me this would happen.


----------



## jumbojack (Mar 20, 2011)

Love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and love your neighbor as yourself.

CHRIST IS BORN. GLORIFY HIM.

Mir, Jack


----------



## ClayandNancy (Feb 22, 2010)

All this discussion only proves that as many Christians that are accused of cramming Christ down someone's throat is proportional to the number of people who are out to destroy Christianity. Why do we not see equal attacks on all the other religions out there. Do we not remember the atrocities that the Jews inflicted on others before Christ or the pagan religions and there attacks on others. Can't believe you can have a happy solstice when you've missed the whole message of peace, love, compassion and giving. I agree with Mike that we don't need the political and religious posts because this is usually the result, but to continue to submit posts like this one, is like pouring gas on a fire you want to put out. Merry Christmas to all whether you agree or not.


----------



## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Mike, I am glad you enjoyed the Winter Solstice.

Genesis 1:14
And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for *seasons*, and for days, and years:


----------



## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

*Rocky Scott SAID: It is clear Mike hates Christians.*

Glad to see you elevated yourself to GOD. I seem to have missed THAT email. But then again, I"M not from Tennessee. 

Clay and Nancy-I don't mean to demean or lessen your input, but please study-up and re-engage, OR (preferablely move to BAN ALL politics and religion from LJs entirely) and then post a clearly stated opinion. Anything less than concrete tends to be picked apart.


----------



## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Talk about your ad nauseum " strawman" Mike,,,c'mon you know better.


----------



## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Scott,
You JUST DO NOT GET IT, do you? So let me spell it out for you:

1. I would prefer that ALL politics and religion be banned/not-allowed on LJs.

2. HOWEVER, ALL politics and religion ARE ALLOWED.

3. In order to show the abuses from the Right, I will return "in kind" from the Left. That means whatever tools/tactics/means used by the Radical Right Wingnuts, I will ALSO use those very same tools/tactics/means against those Radical Right Wingnuts.

What is it with you wingnuts anyway? You think you can make up your OWN rules for YOUR Radical Right Wingnuts and then expect the Left to play nicely? *An oft quoted analogy would be that the Radical Right Wingnuts want to bring a GUN to a fight, yet THEY expect the Left to play within the rules and ONLY bring a knife.*

Do tell me, how does it feel being on the receiving side of YOUR OWN brand of "politics"? And why have you NOT complained to and about the Radical Right Wingnuts postings that are constantly being posted? I read them and you are quite silent on THOSE threads.


----------



## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Unless it is an assault on me personally, I am not going to intervene between 2 adults bantering regardless of their left/right sector nor am I going to comment on any isolated comment or rant.

I think your post shows why we can't have a civil conversation. You say "left" but when describing your position while the other side it is "radical right wingnuts".

Anytime one (includes everyone) gets into making the debate personal, they have already lost.

I understand you editorial emphasis is to make a point, but I won't take the bait..others might but I won't.

I will still pray for you.


----------



## ClayandNancy (Feb 22, 2010)

You miss the point Mike, as long as you post on your opinion of religion and politics or respond to the so called "radical right wingnuts the topic of religion and politics will never disappear from LJ's. It's not a matter of right or left, it's STOP THE NOISE


----------



## mski (Jul 3, 2007)

Most bible experts believe Jesus was born sometime in the spring, Christians hijacked Winter solstice celebration from the Pagans by the tip of the sword many moons ago.
Now I do believe Jesus is rolling in his grave seeing how we have twisted and commercialized his teachings !
Christmas as it is now is a pitiful joke, lets see , OOH how did black Friday go, the economy, Christmas sales are up , I didn't get the present I wanted ,and on and on.
Silly Humans.
Peace


----------



## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Wow, Mike, you really lobbed this one out there. It's a very interesting read. I'm thinking these customs might be difficult for a scientist, who has his eyes fixed on the night sky. I remain neutral in all of this, but it sure is interesting. 
.
Just a right wing…








Lol! 
Merry whatever.


----------



## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

*mski said : Now I do believe Jesus is rolling in his grave…......*

There are a few events I think you have missed.


----------



## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

I watched a documentary about how Christmas - the birth of Christ was made to be December 25th.
The date was assigned by Romans when the Roman church made Christmas day officially on the 25th of December so as to coincide with 2 other pagan celebrations to Roman Gods.


----------



## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Roger, my church teaches that the birth oh Christ took place sometime in the spring.

We just happen to celebrate Christmas on 12/25.

The truth of the matter is the conception, birth, death, resurrection and ascension of Christ should be recognized and celebrated every day.

The date or day is really irrelevant.

I agree that the over commercialization of Christmas is disrepectful, but God recognizes the fallacies of man, hence his plan for salvation.


----------



## fussy (Jan 18, 2010)

Clay and Nancy,

No one is out to destroy Christianity. Some may hate it for what has been done in the name of christ, some may hate it for the abuses commited by Christians, but no one is out to destroy it; at least not in this forum.

The problem seems to be that christians have a selective view of the world. They view their way as the only right way, then try to make certain that everyone else follows the 'right' way thereby ensuring themselves that they are 'right'. As for the enmity that seems to surround christianity, it stems from the fact that christianity is the only religion pushed so aggresively by its' adherants. Whole cultures have been destroyed for the spread of christianity (along for the hunt for gold, silver, jewels, etc to decorate churches in Europe). The treatment meted out to these conquered people in the name of christ is sure to stir up resentment and bad memories along with healthy suspicion of motives. Trying to marginalize those depredations by saying "others have done the same" is both childish and disingenuous. It doesn't excuse or justify the actions.

In the current day, christians throw themselves into every discussion or issue with messianic zeal declaring that their view is the only possible view thereby shutting down all possible civil discourse. Of course, that is the motivation. Christians are saying, "Don't talk, listen and obey." This inspite of the fact that most of christian dogma evolves with the needs of the particular adherant to suit the situation. Any information or thought that doesn't hew to the party line is considered heresy and demonized.

Fundamentalists are een more to be pitied as they continualy back themselves into a spiritual corner by insisting that the bible is inerrant-everyword the truth. Problem is, if one word is wrong-and a lot are- the whole thing falls apart as it is not open to interpretation. Not only is this wrong, it's silly. The bible is a compilation of stories of many civilizations, with a bit of history, and is a fascinating glimpse into the development of civilization. The stories there-creation, flood, etc.-were attempts to explain things that noone of the time had the capacity to understand. Other parts, especially the new testament, are attempts to assuage people's fear of death.

To do this, someone thought up Jesus. He may have been real, or not-the historical record is becoming more negative daily, but by starting a cult using him as the figurehead, making him a god who promises life after death, eliminating people's worst fear, was a big step. In order to make it believeale, he had to have super powers, BE 'PURE' THROUGH 'VIRGIN BIRTH' bypassing the system god put in place for that purpose because it's actually 'dirty', had to be sacrificed (sacrifice was a constant tool to appease all gods so it was a must) and of course he had to be reawakened to catch the nexzt cloud to heaven. This was a powerful attractant to people whose very existence was hell on earth. The thought of something better later made it seem possible to carry on and make death less scary.

It also was a powerful marketing tool, and a powerful way to exert control. If they believe and OBEY, they get the reward. Trouble is, they don't get it until they die and if they DON'T get it, they can't come back and complain. Perfect. So anyway, the story grows, the rules change and become more complex, ways are developed to get around the rules (confession-accepting discipline and CONTROL ftom a person of influence), money (papal dispensations were the start of paper money. If one wanted to fornicate with one's mistress and was afraid of croaking before confession, he bought a pass from the church, burned it when done, smoke goes to heaven and he's home free. If he didn't get to use it, he could sell it-anything accepted as having value is money). The system took off and cathedrals throughout Europe were financed by anticipated sin.

Christianity and the promise of eternal life has been used for centuries to keep people in line. I grew up in Hazard, Kentucky in the coalfields in the late 40's through the 60's. I was aware from an early age the control churches used to keep miners and their families under control. They were taught that they had to "suffer here on earth to be worthy of their reward in heaven". In that way, they were told to expect to live in poverty, misery, hunger cold, sickness, early child mortality, extreme danger in the mines, no safety considerations. Their reward was comong. They fervently believed. And they suffered, lived in abject misery and died.

Trouble was, the mine operators didn't share the danger and suffering, their ministers didn't share the life of poverty, they lived in big houses in Woodland Park or in Daniel Hills where they could literall look down on their subjects. To their credit, he miners' preachers were themselves miners and lived the life, hoping against hope they were right. The operators treated them like mules. If one or twenty ded, get more.

Christianity is used to control every part of life. In order to mmaintain control, the party line has to be followed assiduously. No deviation in thought. If the bible says the world was done in 6 days, it was 6 days. In spite of all the evidence that 'god' put in place to the contrary and 'gave' man the wisdom to understand,
evolution is counter to creation-a myth created to explain the then unexplainable, and is therefore wrong and 'anti christian'. Kinda like the days when people were killed for believing the Earth revolved around the Sun. Medical research, guided by knowledge and understanded 'granted by god' that could relieve so much suffering is stiffled because stem cells from frozen embryos-10 or 12 cells-would be destroyed thereby destroying a human life. But the SAME embryos, aare flushed down the toilet when no longer needed. That's better. Right.

Christians want to interject themselves into debates in which they have no standing. Abortion, not the best solution but sometimes the best for the situation, is none of their damned business. It's a decision to be made by the woman, her family, and her doctor PERIOD. Especially when 'christians' want to eliminate choices in contreception.

Christians are at war with gays. Gay people are 'god's creation' too, they have their way of life, I don't like it nor do I want to be that way, but as lpng as they don't hit on me, I'm ok. They didn't ask to be gay, it has been proven to be a genetic modification, not a choice. It has been observed in the animal world. It's none of your damned business. "Love others. Do unto others as you would have others do unto you" Good words to live by, except for christians.

Christians are at war with Islam. Many preach an apocalyptic message that the final battle of Armageddon is coming. No wonder they're upset. Crap like that plays right into the hands of extremeists. Sulf-fulfilling prophecies, anyone?

For such a 'peaceful', 'hopeful', loving, giving religion, christianity seems to be controlling, demeaning, based upon an impossible myth that flies in the face of reason and the operating principles of the universe, and a 'promise' that can not possibly be kept or verified. While demanding everyone accept this false promise on 'faith', they try desperately to prove the rectitude of their beliefs by distorting, ignoring, destroying, and demonizing any evidence to the contrary. Their beliefs are based upon superstition, fear, and magic (witchcraft?), and deliberate ignorance. Remember the "Dark Ages" when owning books was punishable by death? The only repository of knowledge was the church and what the church wanted prople to know?

Do I hate christians? Hell no. But I don't like being told I'm going to hell (where the hell is it, any way?) if I don't join up and say the words, that my lifestyle is wrong because I don't dress up and go spend an hour in church. I'ver een a pretty good boy these last 65 years. I never drank, was never arrested, never in over 30 years in business cheated or mis-led anyone, never cheated on my wife of 43 years, allways paid my bills and taxes (it's a priviledge and an honor to be able to pay for my liberty), raides two beautiful daughters whose love and respect I enjoy, helping infuse values into to wonderful grandchildren who already know to respect and value others, but I have been known to speed, or lie about a project (that's shorter to add a shadow line), have been grumpy getting grumpier lately), but all-in-all, I think I've been nice. Now you come along, Scott, and tell me I'm going to hell (where the hell is it, anyway?) if I don't shape up (Judge not that ye be not judged)? Come on! If Jesus did exist, that wasn't what he meant.

Christians posture as a repressed minority when in fact they are doing the oppressing. Anything that is counter to their dogma, evolution, separation of church and state, free thought, etc is looked upon as persecution. Lighten up, enjoy yourself, and if sommeone wants to join, welcome them. Leave the rest of us alone. Yours is not the only game in town.

I wish we could all get along, that ideology wouldn't trump reason, that critical thinking was a common ability and a goal to be aquired. I wish that people were more concerned for othewrs instead of trying to get the whole enchilada for themselves. I wish people would be willing to help others willingly ALL the time, not just certain seasons. I wish they would do this from a natural sense of goodness and right instead of trying to 'earn a reward in heaven'. I wish people would look at each other as equals, as friends, aspeople of worth nomatter their station or religion, race, ethnicity,etc. I wish we could be like bees or ants. Everyone working for the COMMON good. I wish we could have civil, reasoned discourse without rancor, posturing, lack of respect for contrary views. I wish we could find ways to compromise and get along. Maybe someone will invent a belief system that encourages that?????

Steve


----------



## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Steve, you make many statements (assertions) about Christianity, would you please provide proof and evidence to support each of these statements?

First start by showing and proving which parts of the Bible are wrong. You seem smart and appear to have all the answers so this should be quite easy for you.

Take all the time you need, but I can't imagine it should take too long for such an enlightened individual as you.

I will wait on your response to this item before we move on to your others statements.


----------



## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Rocky: The documentary I watched said that nobody really new when the Birth of Christ too place, and that the Roman Church set a date so that it was a standard date for all. It just happened to be when celebrations for 2 Roman Gods festivities were set, they added the Christian holiday so as everyone had their celebration at the same time. I guess it was an early version of compromising.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

I'm comparing the tactics of Carl Rove to those of Mike. By including a reference that cite's Hitler (the author's religious bend is wholey irrelevant and was not questioned by the way), you are attempting to place christians in a positions of explaining / discussing / diasassociating Hitler.

Rhetorical bullying, plain and simple. I have no respect for your positions because of your tactics. I tried. But I'm done.


----------



## fussy (Jan 18, 2010)

Scott,

I didn't post this to argue with you. That would be pointless as your beliefs are firmly entrenched and intractible. I really don't care what you believe, or what you think about what I beleive. If you think about it, religion is only one of the things that prevents us from being friends. I don't know if we have anything in common or not. You've posted no projects, so I don't know if youre a woodworker, your only posts have been of a political (right) or religious bent, plus, you're from Tennessee. I can get around the Tennessee part, but religion? Wow. Intolerance of other views, demands for proof (both of the truth or fallacy of your religion), constant refutation of contrary positions, smacks of arrogance and a bit of insecurity.

If you truly want me to tear the bible apart, start with which one. King James version? He gave a bunch of monks from all over Europe scrolls, had them translate them, picked the parts he liked from each and put them together. Now where's the credibility in that?

Take the bible for what it is; a story, a glimpse of history, a guide book. Find some outside interests. You are here a short while so do something besides arguing nonsense.

Steve


----------



## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Not trying to argue with you either Steve, it is just that you seemed very sure of your positions and statements.

Your post was quite confident so I thought you could show me where the Bible was wrong. I am interested to know now who the "he" is that gave the monks the scrolls and who "he" was that picked the parts "he" liked.

I have many outside interests besides woodworking, I am am musician as well as a pilot. I read alot, love sports, animals, my children and my grandson.

No projects of mine have been posted because I started redoing my kitchen more than 2 years ago and it is not near finished. I am finding this was a bad project to start my woodworking adventure. I am a bit overwhelmed by it right now. You are welcome to stop by when you are in the neighborhood. If you prefer I can post pics of my incredibly dirty shop.

You are correct that I am right leaning and libertarian in my political beliefs. Personal responsibility, limited government, low taxes and fiscally sound spending are right up my alley. What I am not is one dimensional or as you said intolerant of other views. If I was I would not read many of the post on here or other reference materials I read from time to time.

You have a sizably written post with many statements that you grammatically infer are fact and I was just asking for the facts.

I am still trying to find that post of mine where I told someone they were going to hell. Can you point me in the right direction?


----------



## mski (Jul 3, 2007)

Anyone Right or libertarian, never read and or understood the bible, at least not Mathew.
Lets quit fighting its Christmas however one interpreted it.
You may say I'm a dreamer


----------



## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Glad you are an expert on my readings and understanding Mark. I don't know how I survived all these years without your incredible insight, intelligence and authority. Thank goodness I am finally whole.

What part of my music am I lacking in o great one? Help me please. TIA.


----------



## fussy (Jan 18, 2010)

Scott,

The 'he' was King James, hence the name. He was dissatisfied with whatever bible he was reading and gathered monks (the number is unclear, but it was a fair-sized group), gave them copies of scrolls in Greek and Latin from which most of the scriptures were taken, ordered them to translate them into English, then gathered them up, took parts he liked from each version (each was different in some way. Even now different people get different results translating old texts. The same happens with gossip) and put together the version he liked from aqll of them and declared it the official bible of the realm. You will admit some slight gap in authenticity or chain of evidence, or whateveer.

My assertions of the excesses of christians in spreading the word are historical fact. The Maya, Inca,, Aztec, Hawaiian cultures were all totally destroyed by christians conquering, plundering, and looting in the name of christ. Call it what you want, but I call it genocide. Jesus would not have been happy. As to where the bible is wrong, start in Genesis. Time wasn't diferent then. The record, weitten in the stone of the Earth says over 5,000,000,000 year, not 7 days. We have christians in Ky. (answers in genesis) who built a theme park they call a museum that swears people had dinosaurs for pets. This kind of ignorance because the bible said 6 days and 1 for rest ! Please!

Still in Genesis: How do you feel about incest? Let's see; he created Adam, then Eve, told them to"be fruitful and enrich the Earth." They got busy (doing the NAUGHTY THING-ORIGINAL SIN!! weren't they following orders?) and had Caine and Able. OK so far. Then They had kids. Wait a minute. The only chick on the planet was MOMMY!!?? Opens some unpleasant possibilities.

Skipping ahead; The FLOOD. OK, god tell Noah to build a boat in the middle of the freakin' desert, get 1 of everything, from ALL OVER THE WORLD (rember, just because they didn't know it was there doesn't mean it wasn't there; the rest of the world, Europe, ASIA, NORTH AMERICA, SOUTH AMERICA, AUSTRAILIA..you get the picture), loads the boat, rains come and cover the entire Earth (where'd it all come from, and where did it go?) they calmly watch everyone drown while they float in a zoo filled with camel dung and worse, then toss up on a mountain in Turkey, let everyone off,, and the world gets filled up. Back to the Adam and Eve thing. Genetics just won't allow population expansion from such a small gene pool. That's why you can't marry your sister or first cousin in Ky. Maybe in PARTS of Tennessee-just joking-it's basketball season, and I know you have your hopes after the last football game. Just trying to cheer you up. Anyway, christians seem to demand we take these fables literally, because if we don't or these aren't EXACTLY TRUE (gasp!), then none of it is and the whole thing unravels. Gotta stick to the party line.

Actually, the flood happened, but on a much smaller scale.It happened when a land bridge between Turkey and Europe (Northern Greece) colapsed allowing the Sea of Marmara and, by default the Medeterranean Sea into what was a plwasant fresh water lake and is now the Black Sea. Given the size of the Black Sea , and given that this was the area most heavily populated as civilization moved out of Africa, it was a devastating event. Nearly every culture on Earth has a flood story. Because they spread from and through here and took it with them. Whole Earth? No, but a whopper anyway.

Skipping lightly to the New Testament, first of all, the gospels don't agree, aren't in order, and none were written at the time. All came years, even hundreds of years later. But you want points of obvious error. OK. Remember the system put in place back in the garden? Yeah, the NAUGHTY THING. Well Jesus couldn't be born that way. Had to be pure. So god picked a virgin (muslims get 76 of them if they blow somebody up. Why are they so lucky?) Side note; do you know how many pregnant teenagers insist it's imp[ossible because they're still virgins? Why does it have to be magic? Why not just adopt somebody? We're allready his children anyway, right?

Any way, the kid grows up to be a trouble maker (occupy the temple), ruffles some feathers, does some magic stuff (witchcraft?), says a FEW good things, mostly about how to treat each other, and gets crucified; a paarticularly brutal way to die. This is supposed to be a sacrifice so you can get a free pass to heaven (can't find it on Google Earth). This from a father who LOVES his son. Nowadays, we call fathers like child abusers.
Anyway, this is supposed to make god really happy (that nail's not in far enough ! God I love it when they squirm like that!) and he gives EVERYONE a free pass, but ONLY if you SAY THE RIGHT WORDS! A few days later(no refrigeration, either), Jesus wakes up in time for the Easter egg hunt (what pagan festival is THAT from?), walks around letting people put their heads in his ripped open abdomen (no refrigeration-gotta be unsanitary), then says "See ya" and jumps on a cloud to heaven! Why didn't NASA think of that?

I sound flip and disrepectful because YOU are missing the whole point of Jesus' life, IF he really exsisted at all-the historical record is really doubtful. Mankind is born with a sense of right or wrong. We don't need to be told how to live. Some will allways do wrong, violate the law, but that's the nature of the beast. Free will is the freedom to choose good or bad.

Christians seem to feel empowered to tell everyone how to live their lives. They feel empowered to assert their will, their beliefs, their religion on everyone as if no one has any merit, any worth but them. Christians want everyone to be like them, to beleive like them, to think like them so that maybe, just maybe, they will be right.

Christians talk of FAITH which is defined as the ability to believe the impossible without tangible proof. Faith. A strong word. They have faith; in a fairy tale that gets bigger and more complex with each telling. But they have FAITH. But then they have to PROVE it to be true. How? With very circular reasoning. I read it in the bible so I know. How do you know the bible is true? Because it says so! Any little thing that disagrees with christian's dogma is apostasy, heresy, the DEVIL talking.

Christians are afraid of new ideas, afraid of the march of knowledge, afraid of science, afraid of the free exchange of ideas, afraid of questions, because of the risk that something they HAVE to believe to be absolute fact is actually full of holes. Mostly, Christians are afraid of their own mortality and look for a way out of it. The life-after-death scenario draws them in. So many christians I have known are afraid to live because they fear they will loose their seat in heaven. This fear makes them easy to manipulate, keeps them from thinkng clearly, but most of all, keeps them from questioning. Gaddafi couldn't have developed a better system for crowd control.

All of this could be avoided if christians listen to Jesus' real message (and biblical scholars are finding he said less and less of what was attributed to him) and ditch all the fables, nonsense, false promises, rites, notion of sacrifice to please the gods (c'mon you pagans), codes, mysteries, visions of virgins (haven't had one of those for years, but--), miracles (where was god on 9/11? I know, it was his will), praying (what are you praying for? He has a plan, it's his will. He's going to change his mind because YOU called?) and live in the real world.

Use Jesus' message as a basis for living life, for helping, not exploiting others. For learning to treat others as equals, not as some ignorant schmuck who needs to change his ways. Use it to see the ways in which his message has been perverted and misused to excuse inexcusable behaviour on the part of christians. Dial down the hysterical rejection of competing ideas (evolution?) because you become rediculous to a world that WILL advance with or without you. When you become really rediculous, you become irrelevant. Then his message of peace, love, tolerance, and joy becomes irrelevant, and I truly don't think you want that.

Best,
Steve

ps just read your response to Mark. I don't get it, but the arrogance comes through loud and clear. Disappointing and not at all in the spirit of what you profess. Not an attack, just an observation. Consider it.


----------



## mski (Jul 3, 2007)

AMEN fussy, someone gets it !!


----------



## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

If you claim the Bible is a fairytale or mythical how is that any more or less tolerant than the beliefs of Christians who you say are totally intolerant?


----------



## derosa (Aug 21, 2010)

Steve, some small points. Adam and Eve were created first however a reading of Genesis and what follows the creation of the couple suggest that God made more then just the two, they were however the prototypes. You are however correct that particularly the early part of the OT is a collection of cultural stories from the groups that came to make up the Hebrew kingdom. From the kingdom period onward it is largely historically accurate with some cultural bias.

That said, to suggest that King James made up the current bible is a fallacy; he is only responsible for one current translation of it. And I will agree with you, it isn't a very good one. However it is only one of many and isn't really used by even the Catholics now a days. I prefer to read the original Greek for the NT, having taken 5 years of Greek studying for my BA and MA plus another 2 going through seminary. For the OT I go with some really rusty Hebrew and a dictionary. Most people today will go with the NIV, NRSV, RSV, or some other significantly more modern translation that draws from the original languages and is more accurate. The gospels were all written within about a hundred years of Christ's death, the earliest about 50.


----------



## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Wow, that's what I get for spending the day in the shop… ;-)
I actually got all of the hardwood cut for my Barrister's Bookcase project. Only need to cut/rip panels from hardwood instead of plywood for a more accurate rendition. So much for all those damn hypochristians that insist we are neglecting woodworking by talking about religion or politics! This will be my THIRD project THIS MONTH OF DECEMBER, the Winter Solsitice of 2011 (too bad my damn calendar has been co-opted by the damned hypochristians)!

See! And THIS REALLY PISSES ME OFF! The fact that my childhood hypochristian brainwashing still has me using hypochristian expletives into my adulthood and INTO old age is just inexcusible!

Scott, PLEASE do NOT pray for me! That is nothing more than putting me on a hit list! Why the hell would you want to kill me? What is it the Inca, the Maya, the Hawaiians, etc? When you "pray for me" is that code for murder? You know, like the abortion doctor murderers… Were they sent "coded" messages that ONLY hypochristians got? Just leave me the HELL out of THAT crap!

There is absolutely nothing I can say that would improve on what Steve has just shared, other than to say,

*" HE IS NOT ALONE IN KEEPING HYPOCHRISTIANS (pronounced "hippo-krist-ianz") AT ARM'S LENGTH!"*

Had a GREAT Saturnalia! I trust your holidays were as comparible!


----------



## mski (Jul 3, 2007)

Mike
That there brainwashing worked very well on poor ol Rocky !
Gotta go, need a new wife, I gotta cut out another rib, should I use a sawzall or Fien multimaster?


----------



## fussy (Jan 18, 2010)

Scott,

You keep missing the point, son. I do not pretend to force my beliefs down your throat. I have spent 65 years thinking this through, and have come to this on my own. I am happy and I get along with most everyone. You (you're the stand-in for fundamentalist/charismatic/hard-shell christians in this discussion, so not you only) keep pushing a fable as fact to make your message stick, and to protect that message, you denounce all points of view contrary to your own. You act as if you are being oppressed and shrill and wail at every affront from other-thinking people. You do this at your own risk. As the world continues to evolve, abd more people become better educated and able to think for themselves, your mish-mash of delusions will be rejected.

This is not intolerance on our part. We don't believe as you do, but we don't try to convert or 'save' you. You guys just keep pushing. Picking fights over gay rights (they're your god's creation too. Love them as Jesus says. Just don't love them). Quit fighting science. It is no threat to you. The bible tells you what happened, science tell you HOW it happened. Stop pushing fairy tales and children's stories, stop making excuses for people who use religiom for their own agendas from Jim Baker to pedophile priests and preachers, to tthe head of the evangellicals getting called out by his gay lover. There are enough abuses and outrages going on in christianity to make people ashamed to be associated with it. The lack of personal responsibility because of the 'free pass'mentality is truly disgusting.

Non christians are not and have not been intolerant. It is not intolerant to disagree with you, but apparantly, you guys feel marginaqlized if someone disagrees. Pity. As I said before, adherance to a dogma that is patently false, flies in the face of reason, and was obviously made up for an ignorant (read uneducated) audience, obscures the true message Jesus (or his publicist) tried to get out.

The message was a good one. It can be found in the few things scholars attribute ro him. Some are, "Suffer the little children to come unto me" (take care of the kids), "Blessed are the peacemakers" (maake love, not war?), "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" (damn that's a hard one). All he was about was peace, harmony, tolerance, love. The rest is just feather-bedding crap that totaly obscures the message, over-complicates a simple concept with too many rules, regulations, chains of command, margins for error, opportunities for exploitation and abuse, and corruption. KISS principle.

The first commandment was thou shalt have no other god before thee. How does that work with the triune concept. How do so many accept that they can't go straight to god, but have to talk to his secretary or or a saint or a minister who will inform you of god's will as he picks your pocket (funny thing about god; all powerful, all knowing, all seeing, just can't handle money.).

Jesus' message was a good one. One doesn't have to be a christian to appreciate it and unserstand it. No hoops to jump thtough no incantations or symbols required. Treat people nicely, love each other, be kind and fair and honest. No big mystery there, you guys don't own the franchise, and that is not intolerance towards christians. You didn't address my observation about attitude a bit ago. Care to expand or offer the youngster an apology or something?

Russ. I grew up with the kjv. I'm sure there are many others. Thanks for the note. The bible is really a fascinating account of one of the more influential sites in man's history. It all started here, and we are still living the consequences of that history. Peace.

Steve


----------



## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

*As I said before, adherance to a dogma that is patently false, flies in the face of reason, and was obviously made up for an ignorant (read uneducated) audience, obscures the true message Jesus (or his publicist) tried to get out.*

And you say you are tolerant…totally absurd.


----------



## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

*Oh THAT"S right. YOU don't have a REAL identity, ALL lies… How convenient for such a hypocrite*

What sort of "real" identity are referring to? I have my picture on the site.


----------



## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Poor old Rockytopscott, failed to identify himself so I did indeed block him. I don't need unidentified trolls raising hell and with NO account. Identify yourself and be honest and you will NOT have a problem with me.


----------



## mski (Jul 3, 2007)

HZ Mike 
That's why his name is Rocky !!!
Lets see picture sitting in front of some kind of stadium, hmm , would that be Penn State's or Pat Robertson's.
Anyone that psychotic about their faith is hiding a deep dark secret! 
Just an observation !
Peace 
PS. HZ Mike Play an Ozzy CD in repeat for 8 hours and that phony prayer will be cast into the depths of hell and fired back at the poser.


----------



## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

mski,
Once I block someone, I tend to shake the dust off of my sandels so to speak, something THEY should understand… THEY had a chance to open up, but chose NOT too.


----------



## fussy (Jan 18, 2010)

Scott,

I am tolerant. The fact that I don't agree with you does not indicate intolerance. Intolerance is the unwillingness to accept another's right to have divergent opinions. Not everyone agrees with everyone else. There has to be different opinions or this would be a sad place. You just don't want to understand that not everyone likes what you stand for. That is not intolerance; that is difference of opinion.

You are the intolerant, arrogant, self-absorbed, pitiable guy who is allways looking for a fight. You'd best look deep inside yourself. There's something wrong in there. You wrap yourself in self-righteousness and set off to prove to yourself that you're better than anyone. The doctrine you espouse is as phony as you are. The message within that doctrine is not, but sadly, you missed it. It and you are too wrapped up in the stuff around it to see. (There is none so blind as he who will not see.)

I'm getting a little tired of your crappy attitude, your rudeness, your arrogance, your sophmoric arguments (I'm right, so there), and yes, YOUR INTOLERANCE, YOUR HOLLIER-THAN-THOU STANCE, and your whole schtick. You are a intellectual midget and a cyber-space trouble maker. You are not interested in any kind of discussion, only posturing and bluster. You don't understand the essence of what you profess to believe-the key principles of the man you profess to follow, and that ignorance will someday bite you right in the ass. You are an unhappy little man and I am sorry for you. I hope you find peace somewhere. Soon.

Steve


----------



## mski (Jul 3, 2007)

Mike,
closed minds usually don't open up.
no matter how big the can opener!!


----------



## derosa (Aug 21, 2010)

Steve, the big issue, what you see more and what has done more damage then anything else to Christianity are the people with an agenda. For every dozen decent churches there's one that makes the rest look bad. Most, not all, but most of your mainline protestant denominations are trying to advance a message of love and hope to others. For every Catholic, Mormon and non-denominational church that supported preventing gay marriage in CA there was a Presbyterian, Episcopal, Methodist, Baptist, Lutheran or some other church supporting the right to gay marriage. Christianity is not one homogenous group with evil agendas. The Presbyterian Church USA is splitting apart right now over the issue of gay rights, just as it once did over slavery because people can't agree on everything even within a single denomination.

For every minister or priest who perverts their position there are a 100 more that truly care and are doing all they can to make a difference in this world. Try to look past the news stories that showcase the few and make us look bad and see the difference that many Christians are trying to make today living out the love that Christ tries to teach.

Mike, seriously, no one is showing up at your door to kill you just cause someone adds you to a prayer list. For your peace of mind I won't add you to mine.
Since you've added me to their ranks, can you explain to me what a "hypochristian" is? You throw the term around a lot but it doesn't actually mean anything to me.

*If the bible is GOD'S WORD, then why do you hypochristians spend so much damned time trying to distance yourselves from the Old Testament? Why is it NOW so irrelevent? And just HOW do you make GOD'S WORD irrelevent IN THE FIRST PLACE? I mean, IS IT NOT GOD'S WORD?*
I personally don't try to explain away the word of God in relation to the OT. I have the understanding that Christ is the fulfillment of the promise of the OT and as such the OT loses some of its relevance as to the law. ie, those who live by the law (torah) will be judged by the law while those who live by grace (Christ) will be judged by grace. Christ didn't come to destroy the law but in fulfillment of it and as Christians we are able to live through Christ and not through the law as Jews still do. The OT is still fully relevant in that it helps us to develop a fuller relationship with God and come to understand God better. It also still serves as a guideline to proper living. That is why I try to see to it that most weeks at least one reading is from the OT.

*In particular, what about the very first book of Genesis where Lot's daughter's get dad drunk on wine, screw him on TWO separate nights, HAVE TWO SONs from this double incest event, and the sons are THEN called MEN OF GOD? Excuse the hell out of me but THAT is profane and unthinkable, yet according to YOU, it is the word of GOD!*
So you would prefer that people be damned on the basis of what the parents did and be unable to reach out to and be accepted by God? Why should the sons not become men of God if they choose to follow God? Not being allowed to for the sins of the mothers would be far more unthinkable. The Bible portrays the actions of the mothers as disgusting and unthinkable as you also seem to rightly believe. That sin though doesn't carry over to the children, even today this still happens all too often, usually the other way around though and it is still a travesty but even today we would not ostracize the children. 
Hope that answers your questions, off to sip some Jim Evans eggnog and relax.


----------



## fussy (Jan 18, 2010)

Rus,

I grew up in the Presbyterian Church, Southern Synod. One of the most influential men in my life, aside from my Father was Rev (later Dr.) Earnest Stricklin. He was as good a man as I have ever met, kind and gentle, a bear, but gentle/ He was firm, strict, but fair and open ( I was a pre-teen or early teen during his tenure). The church was full of fat cats who liked things their way. One Sunday, Rev. Stricklin said basiclly, "Good morning, I quit." Took off his robe and walked out. The church has never been the same since. I got out when I left for college and went back only for the funerals of my parents and my sister's wedding.

The second most influential man was David Grandgeorge, Pastor of the First Christian Church Desciples of Christ in town. Another Earnest Stricklin, but smaller, milder, and I wasn't a teenager. He married both of my daughters. He was driven to quit the ministry entirely for five years because of the back-biting and power plays.

I could go on, but you get the picture. I understand that a lot of Christians fervently believe, try really hard to put into Christ's teachings, OK, one more example: Hank Vernard and his wife Ginny. We joined Colony Heights Church of Christ in Ft. Wayne, Indiana after 7 years in a Deciples church and having the minister not recognize us when we spoke to him. Hank got word through the grapevine that I was in financial trouble. I had just started a new business (music store), had a break-in that wiped me out, my State Farm agent had been pocketing the premiums and hadn't reported the policy to the home office, and I didn't lnow how I was going to feed my wife and new daughter. He had met me once, but he showed up at my front door and handed me $700. He said, "I know this isn't enough, I'll get another $1000 tomorrow." Just like that. No when are you going to pay me back, it'll cost you this much, sign here, I want some collateral-just if you need more, I'll talk to the elders. I KNOW about good people. AND i PAID HIM BACK WITHIN 10 DAYS WHEN sTATE fARM CAME THROUGH (i SHOWED THEM THE cancelled checks) paid me and put Al Burrell, the agent in prison for 2-5. I KNOW about good people.

You understand, that the squeeky wheel gets the greese. You aare right in that the jerks with the agendas and their gospel of prosperity appealing to greed and avarice, who spoil it for everyone. I do not tar everyone with the same brush. The mainstream churches, however, are loosing ground and influence, and I see that as the beginning of the end of TRUE CHRISTIANITY. Too bad. Jesus had some nice ideas.

As I have said, I have thought and studied this for 65 years. I decided (for free will is the bedrock of freedom) that for me, simple is better. Rather than jump through hoops, run into agendas, put up with all the foolishness (if we were Presbyterians, why on earth do we have to believe in the Holy Roman Church?), sing the silly songs (think about "Onward Christian Soldiers, Marching as to War". How about peace?), I decided to eliminate the middle men. I am like Carl Sagan; I don't know if there is a god, ity's not consistant with reason,l but there's not enough evidence to prove there is or isn't. I'll just have to wait and see. If he's as loving as people say, it'll be ok." I don't believe any of the bible requiring acceptance of Jesus to get in the club, the idea is anethma to any belief system I could support. Coercion and love don't mix. I'm not sure Jesus existed in any form, certainly not as portrayed, virgin birth is a joke, sacrifice for me is a really foolish idea-it eliminates all motivation for acceptance of personal responsibility, I don't believe he rose from the dead, and like the song, I know there ain't no heaven and I pray there aint no hell.

What I do know, is distilled to its' purest form,k Jesus' teachings are worth Following. The reeal teachings. Not worship-that wasn't what he wanted anyway, he was too humble. But following the way of life he laid out. Like Earnest Stricklin, David Grandgeorge, Hank and Ginny Vernard, Danny Thomas, and the millions of good people of ALL reliions or beliefs who try every day to make the day a little better for somebody else. I am not a christian, never will be, but I can appreciate the genuine message he left us and follow that example just as you can, and I don't need the Sword of Damocles held over my head to make me want to.

Like the voices in my head, he may not be real, but he has some damn fine ideas. See, people of opposing views CAN discuss with honor and civility and find common ground. Can't we? I hope so. Peace, Russ, and have a safe and happy new year.

Steve


----------



## derosa (Aug 21, 2010)

Unfortunately I believe that you are right that true Christianity is losing ground as politicians and abusers try to co-opt it for their own agenda. I understand your perspective and can appreciate it. God does know what is in our hearts and I do not believe that the creator rejects or accepts solely on the basis of claiming to have accepted Jesus but rather that we have lived our best to the ideals that Jesus espoused, in that you sound fine.


----------



## fussy (Jan 18, 2010)

Russ,

Like a breath of fresh air, a man of reason and wisdom, and goodness. It's a pleasure to know you.

Steve


----------



## TCCcabinetmaker (Dec 14, 2011)

I don't see how ANY of this relates to woodworking… I don't see how it is appropriate or even near something that should be discussed in this forum, or any other. I do not get a warning that this is an "anti-your or someone else's religion thread" when I look in the main forums, and when it stays there long enough I will peek, but I regret it, because in order for someone to be so strongly against something, something really negative has occured in that person's life, or they do not wish to except what they know to be true, which is also known in psychology as denial.

Some people believe what they believe, not just because of what they read in a book, but also because of what CAN be proved with science. Which sadly does not agree with everyone else's beliefs.


----------



## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

TCCcabinetmaker SAID: or they do not wish to *except* what they know to be true, which is also known in psychology as denial.

That would *"accept"* TCC and NOT *"except"*, though your typo may actually be MORE accurate for us lovers of truth. Additionally, so many so-called christians EXCEPT themselves out of the controls they wish to place upon others. As for me, I do NOT *except out of the truth* and the truth is that christianity is an abusive, predatory religion based on fraudulent records from Constantine's writers in the forth century. And the fact that Constantivne and his son burned down all the libraries, all the books, and destroyed and robbed all the competing temples/churches proves just that.


----------



## TCCcabinetmaker (Dec 14, 2011)

Mike your entire original post was a personal attack on a large group of people. For a former middle school and high school principal as well as a teacher, you should know your behavior is not acceptable in polite society. As an educated man you should know this. You aren't the victim here, the people you have attacked on a personal level are.


----------



## IrreverentJack (Aug 13, 2010)

Well Mike, there you have it. You're either damaged goods to be stalked and prayed at or just a little too uppity for an agnostic/atheist. Nice post on the sled. I look forward to your bookcases. -Jack


----------



## mousejockey (May 6, 2010)

Point proven.
Cast out a little bait and you get feeding frenzy, just in case you may not have noticed, the point is someone doesn't like the fact that politics and religion are discussed here.

It's supposed to be a woodworking site, and these topics do nothing but divide people and create arguments. All of you have just proved it.

But Mike, if you think they will stop allowing posts on religion or politics I think you're wrong. The more posts and members a web site can claim the more they can charge for advertising, or at least look more inticing to the customers.


----------



## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Hey Mouse,
I guess that keeps me busy eh?

Personally I can't get over TTC's comment. *…a personal attack on a large group of people."* WTF? If it were personal it would NOT be on a LARGE group of people. I just love the pot/kettle argument from a bunch of fundamentalists. What more coulda' fella' want?

AND 211 POSTS IN JUST 13-DAYS! What an alternative personality THAT is! Just sayin…


----------



## fussy (Jan 18, 2010)

Mike,

Have fun but remember the old Kazakh proverb; " He who dangles his schmetzal in the pirranh's tank, will eventually loose it." Make merry, but take time to make sawdust.

TC, the control is the 'off' switch. If this stuff bothers you, don't watch. That's the GREAT thing about the USA. You will admit the freedom to be a gadfly is more sacred than freedom FROM gadflies. Were it the other way 'round, you'd be speaking with a Cockney accent, be drinking stout and eating haggis and mash, and have awful teeth. Happy New Year.

Steve


----------



## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

THIS WEEK in the SHOP! Project #3 for the month of December THIS year!


----------



## TCCcabinetmaker (Dec 14, 2011)

Perhaps you shold look through some of those posts Mike…

Most of my posts have been going into helping others with the issues they have, since I actually do have some clue what I'm doing around the shop. Most of yours are calling people hypocrites, morons, closed minded, and so on and so forth. It's a shame that children were taught by you, because I doubt they could come out being less close minded than yourself.

It is a hate message when you blindly label a large group of people, they will take it personally, as all people do, and you would if I made a blanketed statement about you. I however do know that there are some rational left wing people. I'm a moderate though, but because you don't agree with my beliefs you automatically write something that would lead people to believe I'm a right wing fundamentalist, when I'm not. This is actually a huge problem with the left wing right now however. If someone does not agree with them, they are made fun of, put down, mocked, called idiots and anything else because the left did not get it's way.

And just to set your skewed sense of history straight…
Constantine burned churchs and entire cities before he himself became a christian, after that point, he ceased to do that. It was kind of the roman way.
Maybe we should look at humanistic comunists did in Kambodia, China, Viet Nam, Russia, and well just about anywhere where they came into power. They killed people in the millions…. You have your religion, I respect that, even if you wish to not call it a religion. I have mine, please respect that.


----------



## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

*TCC: Constantine burned churchs and entire cities before he himself became a christian, after that point, he ceased to do that.*

^Simply NOT true.^ That is unless you mean he died. His sons continued the pillaging of temples and murders of non-christians.

324 The emperor Constantine declares Christianity as the only official 
religion of the Roman Empire. In Dydima, Minor Asia, he sacks the Oracle of 
the god Apollo and tortures the pagan priests to death. He also evicts all 
non-Christian peoples from Mount Athos and destroys all the local Hellenic 
temples.

325 Nicene Council. The god-man gets a promotion: 'Christ is Divine'

326 Constantine, following the instructions of his mother Helen, destroys 
the temple of the god Asclepius in Aigeai Cilicia and many temples of the 
goddess Aphrodite in Jerusalem, Aphaca, Mambre, Phoenicia, Baalbek, etc.

330 Constantine steals the treasures and statues of the pagan temples of 
Greece to decorate Constantinople, the new capital of his Empire.

335 Constantine sacks many pagan temples in Asia Minor and Palestine and 
orders the execution by crucifixion of "all magicians and soothsayers." 
Martyrdom of the neoplatonist philosopher Sopatrus.

341 Constantius II (Flavius Julius Constantius) persecutes "all the 
soothsayers and the Hellenists." Many gentile Hellenes are either imprisoned 
or executed.

346 New large scale persecutions against non-Christian peoples in 
Constantinople. Banishment of the famous orator Libanius accused as a 
"magician".

353 An edict of Constantius orders the death penalty for all kind of worship 
through sacrifice and "idols".

354 A new edict orders the closing of all the pagan temples. Some of them 
are profaned and turned into brothels or gambling rooms.

Execution of pagan priests begins.


----------

