# Opinion on pocket hole joinery



## plang

What is your opinion on pocket holes as joinery? ...................thanks


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## LelandStone

I once worked in a cabinet shop where pocket hole joinery was the standard for constructing face frames. We used a Kreg machine. It was fast. It was accurate. It was also an ugly finished product and felt really, really cheap.


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## BTimmons

I'd say it depends on the piece, and also the application of its parts.

For instance, say you're building an average sized coffee table. Pockets holes would be ok to use for attaching the top, drilling up through the inside of the apron so the holes aren't visible from the outside. I wouldn't use pockets holes for attaching the legs to the apron, though. For that I'd use mortise and tenon because it resists racking much better than pocket screws.

My kitchen table and chairs are a Garden Ridge special (don't judge, we bought them before I got into this). Both of them are assembled with pocket holes. The table has never felt all that sturdy, and the chairs are beginning to fall apart. We've had them for about four years.

I guess the real question here is, what are you planning to build?


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## BillWhite

I use my Kreg a bunch for hidden joinery. Sometimes I will even plug the pockets, but I don't use 'em for exterior applications. I've also used 'em in conjunction with dowels and glue for faster assembly time. Never had a failure (yet). Make sure that ya use the correct type and length screws.
Bill


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## Loren

There are circumstances where it makes a lot of sense, but as a builder
of fine work I have moved away from it because the appearance
of the holes all over the place is distasteful to me.

Pocket joinery is fast and strong as mentioned. The parts also have
a tendency to shift in assembly which can introduce some problems
unless you have the robust sort of clamping gear to eliminate the
shifting. I found the clamps that came with the Kreg jigs don't 
eliminate shifting. If you are thicknessing your frames with a benchtop
planer you may find the planer doesn't stay within say a 1/64th
of an inch tolerance in part thickness, and then the parts are
tough to clamp flush for pocket screwing.


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## renners

It's horses for courses. If someone wants a job made but doesn't want to pay top dollar (or Euro, in my case), the pocket hole jig comes out. 
Very useful for putting stuff like rails in the back of a cabinet where it will never be seen, or fixing the bottom into a cabinet from the underside. 
I wouldn't use it for any kind of table or anything 'special'. The face cramp from Trend is fairly useless, I have had better success by cramping the the member to be fixed with a sash cramp.
A 'quick change' drill bit (with a hex shank) in a bit holder is useful for drilling pilot holes into tough wood like oak and maple. (I discovered this after wringing the head off quite a few Roberts head screws without a pilot hole).


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## clieb91

I have used Pocket hole joinery in a number of applications. It has beena great thing to help me get started in larger scale projects. I can certainly see that it is not the best thing to use for "fine furniture" however for utility type furniture and stuff you are looking to make quickly and cheaply it is a good tool. I have also used it recently to introduce people to woodworking with no prior experience and they have made some great furniture with it.

CtL


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## TCCcabinetmaker

IF you see the pocket holes, you're not using it for the proper application. If you're using pocket holes for let's say cabinet doors, you aren't doing it right. My cabinet doors are dado and tenon, cause my customers can't afford more ellaborate cabinet door styles at this time.

I assemble my face frames with pocket holes, and attach them to the case work with pocket holes, ONLY where it will not be visible. If I feel that the pocket holes are necessary on a side, I will then make sure I have a quarter inch over hang or whatever necessary depending on style of cabinets, to add a side panel to hide the pocket holes. Simply because to me, filled holes from nails in a face frame are far ugglier than a hidden when properly used fastener.


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## Lifesaver2000

Check out http://ana-white.com for some ideas of what can be done with pocket screws. I have never used them myself, but she builds just about anything with them. Bunches of free plans made for pocket hole joinery.


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## Dal300

I'm not nearly as experienced as these other fellows, but I use pocket hole joinery anytime it can't be seen by the end consumer, especially if the buyer doesn't want to pay for rabbets, (rebates), dadoes, slots or tenons. 
I also use it on the back side of face frames just because I have done so many RV's that aren't even close to square that I have to make adjustments in the carcass of the cabinet to allow for the face frame to sit square.


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## jusfine

Used it mostly for face frame construction, sometimes for carcase reinforcement.

My first choice is Domino or biscuit joinery, but the pocket hole joinery does have a place in my shop.


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## richgreer

I used to use pocket holes a lot. I use them less now. I only use them for hidden joinery on woodworking pieces I make.

Unlike most people, I like to use pocket hole joinery when putting studs in place when building a wall. I consider it superior to toenail nailing and it only takes a few more seconds to go the pocket hole approach. Further, if I need to remove and reposition a stud, it is much easier to extract a pocket hole screw than a nail.


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## canadianchips

I think if we all took our "Joinery training" in Europe on a scale of 1-10, 10 being the BEST, a pocket hole would be a #3. Butt joint #1 (poorest) Secret mitered dovetail #10.


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## new2wood

I second Rich's use of using pocket holes for framing. It does take a little more time, but when framing is a one man show, it excells as a joinery method. I use it for shop projects and other utilitarian things. It holds a strong joint if you glue it and screw it.


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## ShaneA

It is a great way to start, and break into woodworking. If they will be hidden, I think they are great, strong, fast, and accurate. But if they are seen, then not so cool…but still viable. Like all things, they have a place, just probably not in high end fine woodworking.


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## woodNfish

Pocket holes are great and they are very strong. Fine Woodworking has done strength test on them and they are one of the strongest joining methods available. There is no reason why they have to be exposed either. Some of the people in this group just don't like anything that isn't a dovetail. Well there is more to life than dovetails and if your interest is a fine piece of furniture with strong joints, pocket holes are a good choice.


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## pendledad

I caught my son standing on my radiator cover tonight. He was jumping up and down on it pretending he was Spiderman. I used nothing but pocket screw joinery on that project. No glue, just screws. The cover survived and it didn't even make a single creak sound. I love these pocket screws, can't wait to use my jig and build some shop items.


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## kdc68

I have a little pocket screw jig and agree it's fast and a strong joint. I have used it for face frames for shop cabinets and kitchen cabinets but that's about the extent of it. I think it has it's place in woodworking. I would *not* use it for a traditional piece of furniture, where traditional joinery would be the norm. Maybe I'm old school….


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## bbasiaga

I'm planning to use them on my upcoming end table project. This is my first hardwood furniture project and I figure I'll have enough things to learn while doing this so I'll save more advanced joinery for the next project. I'm excited. Got the wood equilibrating to the house now. Hopefully in about a week I can start cutting.

-Brian


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## bullhead1

When I use pocket screws on face frames and other joints with 1 screw and glue I also angle a staple into the joint when its still clamped and never had a problem of it twisting and moving.


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## pintodeluxe

I like pocket holes, biscuits, M&T, pegged through M&T, stub tenon and groove, and dovetail joints. I use them all regularly, it just depends on the application. I wouldn't build an entire project with pocket screws, because you spend too much time trying to cover your tracks. A few well placed kreg screws can be quite handy.


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## LeeBarker

I am enjoying this exchange of philosophy.

Today I was building a cheval mirror with the client, an able hand, in the shop. The mirror is his original design incorporating arts and crafts themes from a bed, dresser and nightstands built in classes he took from me.

Came to the lower stretcher and I suggested that the best, most accurate, fastest and adequately strong joint was pocket screws. The question we came up with was, if Chippendale had access to pocket screws would he use them?

"Yeppers" was the answer. We proceeded. The pockets are underneath the stretcher, unfilled.

To think that the list of strong, efficient joinery was arbitrarily closed at any time in history is folly. That would fling insults at the developers of biscuits, of multiple dowels, of epoxy for crine out loud.

That said, to honor the masters by imitating their work as closely as possible is to be admired, in my view.

FWW, I glue my pocket screw joints-even edge to end grain-let it set for 20 minutes, and then insert the screws. It eliminates creepage.

Further I keep a wax box (toilet ring wax, if you must know) and lube the screws for hard hardwoods as renner noted. Wax obviates the need for drilling pilot holes.

Kindly,

Lee


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## Bobmedic

There is absolutely nothing wrong with pocket hole joinery. It is very strong, easy to do and provides quick framing. I don't use it for everything but even in visible areas with a contrasting plug it can look good. Here is a table that I secured the top to the aprons with pocket screws and plugged the wholes with a contrasting wood. The rest of the piece is all mortise and tenon.


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## Rutager

One of the best explanations I've heard about pocket screws is that they will loosen with expansion and contraction over the years, so it was said that you should only use them in projects that you only need to last for 10 or 15 years. So apparently the average kitchen gets remodeled every 15 years or so, so that would be a good application, but the chest of drawers you hope to hand down to several generations would not.

-Rutager


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## LeeBarker

Sounds true about the expansion and contraction, Rutager. We've all seen old pieces, once snugly screwed together, which wobbled and, sometimes, ejected the screws a millimeter or two.

That said, if there's another, stable, different joint attached to the pocket screw joint, I'm going to give it another couple of decades. If I'm wrong, come and find me and tell me. Gently.

Kindly,

Lee


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## SamuraiSaw

I use pocket hole joinery where appropriate, most often for face frames on "lower end" projects. They strong and quick.


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## doncutlip

I use them all the time; they are very strong. Obviously you can't use them all the time unless you want to plug the holes or something like that.


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## roman

I was never a big believer in pocket hole joinery until a greenhorn showed me and demonstrated the inexpensive "Kreg" jig. Since then I have been hooked and albeit it still isnt the answer in replacing traditional joinery it surely speeds up the process.

When making an embedded bead mould, haunched mitred frame which is in itself a very challenging method, certainly high end cabinetry I use the pocket hole joinery to fasten the frames to the cabinets (all hidden) in combination with biscuits, Domino, and or tenon use, be them rabbets or grooves etc., and the pocket screws hold the frame in place whilst glue dries thus replacing the need for a gazillion cumbersome clamps


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