# chip carving knife



## Howie

What degree of bevel do you chip carvers use to sharpen your knife?


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## DanKrager

Most instructions will tell you to sharpen the edge about 10 degrees on each side, yielding an effective 20 degree cutting edge. While this is pretty steep, the great steel used in chip knives can handle it. In fact, I have pushed the envelope a bit, going to about a 12 degree total cutting angle (6 degrees each side) for a knife used in soft woods like pine, basswood, and even poplar. Honed to a mirror polish without rounding using a submicron diamond film or green chromium honing paste the knife cleanly slices the soft wood with minimal compression and pressure. I'm anxious to find a metal lubricant that lubricates on a non-contaminating "molecular" level to further ease the pressure of separating fibers. In harder woods I would stick with closer to 20 degrees else any side pressure will possible damage the blade.
DanK


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## waho6o9

http://lumberjocks.com/MyChipCarving/blog/34449

An interesting blog me thinks.


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## helluvawreck

It's close to whatever angle Wayne Barton recommends because when I started it was his book that first taught me. However, once you get the hang of it you don't even think about it. I'll tell you what though, it's unbelievable how fast you can sharpen a good chip carving knife. It doesn't take long to learn how and once you do if you take care of your knife you will almost never have to use anything but your fine ceramic stone. I'm not sure if I've ever used the rougher stone. My knife was sharpened when I got it. I'ts a Wayne Barton knife but I'm not sure who makes it for him. I've never dropped my chip carving knife nor let it touch another tool. When you're sitting down carving you'll know when to sharpen it and it don't take but a moment and you don't even have to get up. That's the beauty of chip carving. You've got one knife and one small ceramic stone. You can carry that anywhere. I rarely use the stab knife.

helluvawreck aka Charles
http://woodworkingexpo.wordpress.com


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## helluvawreck

Do you know what, Howie? I went back out to my shop and thought about this. I'm not sure what angle I sharpen my chip carving knife. Here's the best advice I can give you. Get a few of the books about it because you will get a lot of nice patterns anyways. I procrastinated for years about learning how to chip carve. Marty put a thread on here about learning how and I read it but I didn't know if I wanted to participate or not but "I'll see how it goes", I said. rivergirl spoke up and said something like, "oh come on, Charles, quit maken' excuses and just do it," Well, I took it as a challenge and just did it. That's the best way to learn how to sharpen your knife and chip carve. You read the little bit in the book and it has a picture how to hold the knife on the stone but I didn't exactly get out a protractor and measure the angle. I'm not sure anybody else does either. You look at the pictures about the technique for cutting the chips, etc. You then lay you some patterns out on a piece of basswood and start carving. Practice helps when you first start. I only had the weekends and I would carve almost all day on Sat. and Sundays. Your knife will get dull so you sharpen it. Your chips won't look exactly uniform or won't come out like they're suppose to but you will get better fairly quickly and you'll soon learn how to sharpen your knife real fast because you'll be too frustrated if you don't. When you figure out getting the wire edge on the knife you'll see the wire edge on the stone. It'll come to you pretty quickly how to sharpen your knife. I quickly lost interest in traditional chip carving and kind of liked free form chip carving better. A chip carving class with a chip carver will get you going quicker. Maybe a Woodcraft store class. However, and to be honest, the best way to learn how to sharpen your knife and make chips is to just start doing it and make up your mind to do it. Your subconscience mind, your hand eye coordination, and your determination and practice will take care of it. It did with me anyways. Best of luck to you and I know that if you like it you will succeed quicker than you think. After the my knife was sharp I stopped mine a few times using a leather strop. However, some chip carvers say not to use a strop on a chip carving knife. I do because it seems to work for me.

I believe that this was Marty's class that I spoke of. BTW for a small monthly fee you can join his website and watch an expert chip carver and wonderful teacher on some great chip carving videos.

helluvawreck aka Charles
http://woodworkingexpo.wordpress.com


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## Howie

As usual I came to the right place for valuable advise.
I going to continue to play around with this and find a class (woodcraft/) to go to.
One of the things I was wondering about was using a "Lansky" sharpening stone and holder as one can use a 17 degree fixed angle and a very fine stone. Any comments on this? I know this is a bit more than some recommend but Dan says up to 20 on hardwoods.
Charles I'm going to check out those vids you mentioned.


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## mpounders

Just do it by hand and practice until you get the hang of it! A lot of carvers have extensive and expensive collections of jigs and sharpening methods that they abandon, once they find a sharpening method that works for them. Me included. I use a Burke sharpener a lot for stropping, but I have recently went back and used a stone on a couple of knives, to get the edge like I wanted it. Everything old is new again.


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## Howie

Thanks Mike. My Dad taught me to sharpen a knife by hand years ago(before all these fancy sharpeners) so I should be able to fall back in the groove.
Now if I could just learn to carve…...


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## Zepluros

This is very perplexing. I cannot find a reference anywhere on the web, and I expected more here at LJ, as to the degree of bevel on a Wayne Barton chip carving knife. It's always "It's whatever it came with and I'm happy with that." This is not like the nitpicking woodworkers and metalworkers I'm used to. I also cannot find a photo of a WB knife that will expand large enough to see the bevel on the blade.
I just made a chip knife (left handed) and guessed at 15 degrees. 
I suppose a 10 degree blade, which is radically sheer in my opinion, would be ok if you were only cutting basswood or shaving somebody. 
Any help out there?


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## DanKrager

Thomas, WB shows that he puts a 10° bevel on each side, making the cutting angle 20° (pg 17 Chip Carving Techniques and Patterns). I have a WB and I can't think of any equipment I have that will measure that angle any where near accurately. Guessing isn't gonna help. This I can tell you…when sharpening or honing I hold it slightly shallower than when cutting, ever so slightly. So the actual cutting angle is up for grabs on my knife. I've tried to keep the original as close as I can.

I can imagine that one might want two knives sharpened differently for different densities of wood. Like you said, soft woods would not give a 20° edge a hard time but perhaps a slightly steeper angle would be more appropriate for denser woods like walnut, beech, cherry etc.

See the first post here…!
Hope that helps.
DanK


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## Zepluros

Dan, that helps a lot and makes sense why no one seems to know. The combined angle is exactly what I would expect too for this kind of work although Chris Pie hones carving chisels to 15 degrees total! 
I intend to make other knives to exhaustively test the concepts involved. Thanks for your input, I was going crazy there for awhile. 
Thomas Hanson


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## rwe2156

5 degrees? Basically I lay it down flat, raise it about 1/16" I guess.


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## kelvancra

I don't know squat about chip carving. However, certain facts will apply in any situation, so this may help some.

A trick I learned using my Edge Pro to sharpen kitchen knives and which would apply, if you had a knife with a known good edge:

1) Use a felt marker to blacken the edge.
2) Using a fine stone, set your guide to the approximate angle.
3) Run the blade against the stone, then look at it under a magnifying glass.
4) Adjust the angle according to which part of the marker was rubbed off (if the marker at the edge is gone, drop the angle down, but if the back is rubbed off, bring it up.

I sharpen my kitchen knives at about fifteen degrees (each side). They are thin blades and all but drop through potatoes. However, if I were doing the kind of work with them my pocket knife gets subjected to, they'd probably get dull, or chip fast.

If the felt marker tip won't help, try an angle suggested here. If you find yourself working to hard, drop down. I suspect some of the more seasoned folks suggesting angles in the area of seven or so are pretty close.

Once you have your blade where you want it, you shouldn't need a course stone for a LONG time.

If you have to go to a more coarse stone, you've allowed your blade to get too dull, or you've sharpened it a whole lot of times, to the point of changing the blade profile (as you get farther up a blade, it gets thicker, so you would thin it down to get back to where you started).

You can be right at the door of the perfect edge [for you], but if you change the angle of sharpening by even a degree, you can set yourself back quite a ways.

I have Flexcut knives for both manual and impact carving. For that, they supply wood shaped for the various blades and on to which you apply a polishing rouge. Regular strokes to hone the edge allow you to avoid major sharpening efforts.

In all honesty, I cannot fathom why someone would be adverse to using a strop or other leather item to clean up an edge. In the end, you're looking for the edge, not the means of getting there. As such, ceramic or whatever would seem fair game, as long as it's about the coarseness you need for the stage your blade is at (some ceramics are as mean to a good blade as a steel is, which removes a lot of valuable knife material).

On another side note, I have a Spyderco Techno (CTS-XHP steel (whatever that means)) and a Manbug pocket knife (VG10 steel). Their steel is better quality and a higher Rockwell hardness than my Buck and other, less expensive knives. Accordingly, they seem to hold their edges better. Said another way, look for quality steel, which can equate to the difference between owning a Chicago drill and a Panasonic, for example.

Higher quality steel can tolerate (hold) a finer edge better. If yours are good quality, it seems a VERY fine, seven degree sharpening angle would give you a lot of control over your cuts and make cutting more of a pleasure. Of course, it does go back to what others say, you have to sharpen regularly.


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## Zepluros

Thanks Kelly, I totally agree with all of that, being a knife lover for 64 years. I still don't have a VG10 blade like you do but maybe someday. I do use Japanese damascus kitchen knives which are very challenging to sharpen to a 30/70 state for left handers like me so I'm familiar with the finer points of sharpening about anything but chip carving knives. Part of the problem comes from Wayne Barton knives, Wayne being probably the most respected chip carver in the entire world. Wayne says to hone to a perfect triangular shape. That means no bevel. NO bevel. I very much suspect this is above the strength limitations of every steel on the planet for a 0.040" blade 7/16" wide. I know the knives he sells doesn't come that way because I've been watching a video of a lady who uses his knives and she is saying the same thing but at the same time you can see the bevel on the knife. But she says she just didn't hone it long enough to get it to a true flat blade. I have since modified my knife to an even thinner configuration by raising the primary bevel way up the blade and having a rounded bevel at the edge. I am getting chips now without excessive tear out so I guess I'm happy enough with my discoveries. Thanks everyone.


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## kelvancra

I was in town yesterday and picked up Flexcut "Whittler's Kit (KN300). The back of the package says to hold the knives at a fifteen (15) degree angle, which would produce a combined angle of thirty (30) degrees.

Rather than chase it with a stone, just like my Flexcut impact-hand carving sets, it suggests using their sharpening compound on a leather strop glued to something solid.

Haven't the foggiest of the approximate grit of the compound supplied with the three kits, mentioned above, but I'll do some experimenting to see if the gold paste supplied brings a mirror edge, or less.

For reference, I have pounds of various buff-polish materials. I use the compounds on hard surfaces like glass or granite. I also use them with various buff wheels, including ones from stacked leather or even MDF, and buff pads.


White (and some white cerium oxide, which is used to polish glass);
Blue (stainless polish);
Red (works great for bringing metal up to a shine);
Green (chromium oxide used for straight razor final smoothing).
Gold (supplied with the Flexcut knives)

Add to the foregoing, I have:


Pummice
Rotten stone
Plastic polish
McGuires Mag Polish (worth its weight for bringing a quick shine to hard metals)
Backing soda
Corn starch
. . . .

All these things can be used to bring metal surfaces to a high polish, or varnished surfaces to a sprayed like finish (after a bit of work with 600 and water or oil).


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## Zepluros

Thanks for the reply. Since my first posting, I've sharpened to a combined angle of 20 degrees and it is working very well.
I also have a rather vast experience bringing metals to a single digit numbered finish and don't really want to have to do much of it again on large pieces of steel. I also use Flexcut chisels which are single edge about 20 degrees and am following Chris Pie's suggestion to hone to 15 degree single edge, 20 degree double edge, and it works much better than the factory angle. Chris has a free introductory class to carving and it is rather an extensive bit of information into carving in general. I only wish I wasn't retired and could afford it. I'm already using tool purchasing as a means of dieting, (less food more tools) so I can't extend that to lessons too. I think the gold Flexcut is about 3 micron as it acts very much like Chromium Oxide.


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## CV3

This may be old news, if it is I am sorry. I am new here. But Chris Pye has online video work shops also. You can join his web site and see what he offers. He has a work shop on tools and how to use them and a lot of projects he walks you though. There is a charge to join. But I have found it well worth it. It has save me time and money with what I have learned. If you want to check it out this is the site.
http://www.woodcarvingworkshops.tv/home


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## kelvancra

Here is another site with a lot of good information:

https://whiteeaglestudios.wordpress.com/2011/03/16/honing-your-woodcarving-tools/

He sharpens to five (5) degrees.

My new Flex knives seem to do fine at twenty (20) degrees, but I suspect I'd be even happier at around ten. Of course, I'd have to strop more religiously.

I've been playing with stopping lately and believe I've missed the boat by not having a few good stropping wheels. I think I'll make a few from both stacked leather and MDO. When done, I'm going to run them off a very low RPM drive.

Toward the end of finding a low RPM motor, I'm looking for old DC motors, since I can vary their speed. Old sewing machines might be a good source.


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## Zepluros

- Kelly
Toward the end of finding a low RPM motor, I m looking for old DC motors, since I can vary their speed. Old sewing machines might be a good source.

I hope to see one of those 5 degree knives one day. I've been making my test knives from 6" scraper blades my lumber store sells. They will do till I feel the need to make some from O1 or 1095. 
I religiously take things apart to re-purpose them. One of the best items I've ever found is old pickup truck shock absorbers. I cut them apart with a 4" grinder. I also re-purposed a weight lifter's belt (1/4" thick!!) then cutting rounds from it and installing onto the shock absorber shafts then turning them at low speed on my lathe. The arbors are long enough and strong enough to keep your hand safely away from the chuck and also to not bend while turning. The shocks also had washers that slid on the shaft, these I used as support on each side of the leather rounds. I also drill them and mount carbide cutters for lathe tools. For this I leave the piston sleeve to use as a handle. No welding or other fabrication. I've been meaning to send this idea to Capt. Eddie Castelan so he can maybe do a video to help sell his cutters, which I use. But I'm not sure if he has recovered enough from surgery yet.


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## rwe2156

> Thanks for the reply. Since my first posting, I ve sharpened to a combined angle of 20 degrees and it is working very well.
> I also have a rather vast experience bringing metals to a single digit numbered finish and don t really want to have to do much of it again on large pieces of steel. I also use Flexcut chisels which are single edge about 20 degrees and am following Chris Pie s suggestion to hone to 15 degree single edge, 20 degree double edge, and it works much better than the factory angle. Chris has a free introductory class to carving and it is rather an extensive bit of information into carving in general. I only wish I wasn t retired and could afford it. I m already using tool purchasing as a means of dieting, (less food more tools) so I can t extend that to lessons too. I think the gold Flexcut is about 3 micron as it acts very much like Chromium Oxide.
> 
> - Thomas Hanson


20 degrees is way to high.

Put the blade flat, put a dime just under the top and that's your angle.

If I had to guess, I would thing no more than 5 degrees.

This is what Wayne Barton recommends, not me.


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## Zepluros

If we knew the blade width we could use trig. I suppose the difference in widths will be miniscule. I'll try it.

Thanks, Thomas


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## walden

Looks like a good thread! I just got a couple carving knives to carve handles for furniture projects. One came with a single bevel on each side and works great. the other has a double bevel on both sides and is harder to control. Any advise on turning the double bevel into a single bevel?


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## DanKrager

Walden, If you have not had previous carving experience, I suggest that you don't change the original bevel(s) until you've had perhaps a years worth of practice. I changed one of mine and found out later why not to do that, so I put it back to original. It may seem harder to control at first because it's not what you are used to. What I found is that I lost some "flexibility"...couldn't do all that should be done with that cutter because I altered it to "feel better". So give it a go long enough to at least determine why it was made that way…hopefully by someone with more expertise than we have.
DanK


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## walden

Thanks Dan!


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