# Time to change my ways



## jeffswildwood (Dec 26, 2012)

Twice now I have took an order from friends, ect, built the project after buying the wood and other attaching part, then let them know their item is ready. Can you wait two weeks? Me-uh sure, see you in two weeks. Two weeks later, can you wait til Friday?, Uh-see you Friday. Friday come, no word, calls or messages, and no money where I am out building it. Does this happen to you? What do you do, keep calling? I think in the future, I'll let them know I am ready to start, bring me half the fee and I'll begin.
I'm not a pro, just a hobbyist and make very little off my projects. I do this to keep busy and do wood work. If I make some extra, fine, I can buy some sandpaper or some more wood for the next project. I think it's time to change. Maybe just build for me or for gifts.


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## dhazelton (Feb 11, 2012)

Get money for materials plus a cushion up front. Make item. If said 'friend' doesn't pick up item sell it for whatever you can. Subtract what they gave you and stick it in a coffee can. If they eventually show up give them their money back. Find new friends.


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## cathode (May 18, 2014)

There are sale agreement forms you can find online, or you can write up very simple sales agreement with straightforward language, that spells out what happens if they never retrieve their item. I agree with dhazelton; Always get at least the materials cost up-front. What if they want you to use some species or material that you'd never normally use for other projects? etc.

If you special order a door from home depot, for example, and don't pick it up, they will make all reasonable attempts to contact you to have you pick it up but I think after like 60 days you are legally forfeiting all claim to the item and they don't owe you anything back.


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## jeffswildwood (Dec 26, 2012)

Good advice dhazelton, but I do want to keep my friends. Don't want my woodworking passion to come between us. I like the coffee can part.


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## jeffswildwood (Dec 26, 2012)

99.9 of my orders are from friends. I use a hand shake. (Old school). But half up front sounds better.


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## jeffswildwood (Dec 26, 2012)

I think no more orders or requests, concentrate on an up coming craft fair (local) and if nothing else, my Wife has a long "wish list" of things she wants me to build. Do wood working for me.


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

half up front sounds reasonable even for friends unless there are other forms of payback. But you should get materials money


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## dhazelton (Feb 11, 2012)

You don't want woodworking to come between you and your friends but it already has and it's frustrating. They should have more respect for your time if they are good friends.


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## ralbuck (Mar 12, 2012)

I have been very seldom burned. But, I do not do large projects either.

On any special that I will have just more than a fewbucks into; I will ask for a deposit at least or 1/2 of the material before I will strt the project.


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## KelleyCrafts (May 17, 2016)

Jeff, being recently retired you should definitely do whatever YOU want to do in the shop. If someone comes up with something for you and you can make a few bucks for shop supplies then great. Otherwise just pass on taking on jobs.

With friends I usually just do material costs up front so I'm guaranteed not out anything. Sure there's the time thing but I also only take on stuff I actually would enjoy building since it's not a business unless it's the wife making requests. If you aren't making money then you better enjoy the build.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

When you go into business you'll realize that friends and family will screw you quicker than a stranger, or at least more willing to waste your time. When family ask me to build them something I tell them to buy the wood and we'll pick it up together, that usually puts the kibosh on things if they aren't sincere.


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## JCamp (Nov 22, 2016)

Half up front sounds good so at least ur covered on ur costs. If they r big items u might specify in the beginning that due to space they can't stay long after completion or factor in gas on the price An deliver it with the understanding they pay the last portion at delivery. 
I hav a mower for sale once. My buddy wanted it an I agreed to allow him to make payments over the next month or two. Took my 18months to get my money on a $1000 mower. We r still friends but I'll never do that again Business and friends can last but there's a lot of opportunities to make an enemy with it


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## jeffswildwood (Dec 26, 2012)

Ralbuck, my projects are small also. I will save it for the craft fair. ki7hy, best advice I can think of. *Do what I want **to do!* Enjoy the build.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Good advice regarding selling, and getting money up front for materials.

That makes sure that you aren't out cash (JUST Time) which has value also

I would always get materials paid for…

More up front payment to me would depend on whether the project is something I really could sell if it is REALLY specific to them. + how much time commitment is it.


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## ric53 (Mar 29, 2014)

I always get a signed proposal which includes a drawing and it is stated in the proposal that a 50% nonrefundable deposit is due before their work can be scheduled. I require this even with friends. I have not lost any money or friends with this approach. Remember there are no friends in business, just customers.


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## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

I would get half up front or at least enough to cover the materials. Most people have no idea the cost of wood and hardware and even the cost of finishing.

Good luck…


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## JCamp (Nov 22, 2016)

Red oak has a good point. Most ppl really don't know how much it costs for just the lumber let alone any finishing or special effects that go into it. 
Personally I'd hate to get a signed contract from a person that is a friend.


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## jeffswildwood (Dec 26, 2012)

JCamp, that's me. That's why I use a handshake. You are correct that most people don't know what wood cost. Let alone screws, stain and other items. I'm going to follow ki7hy's advice. I like it.


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## cathode (May 18, 2014)

A real friend won't balk at being asked to pay for materials up front. If your "friends" can't handle that requirement, they're not very good friends in the first place.


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## jeffswildwood (Dec 26, 2012)

I agree, only I have never had to do that. I buy materials, build and then say it's done. Just lately it became a problem. I guess that's why I say a change is needed.


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

I find a good open handed slap across the mouth works well.


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## Kirk650 (May 8, 2016)

If it's a significant project, dollarwise, I estimate bf (aiming high) and have them go with me to pick boards and pay.


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## jeffswildwood (Dec 26, 2012)

Not my style fridge.


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

In that case.

1/2 now and half later will probably work just fine


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

If they're friends and the jobs are small and you like doing it,
just do it….. and when they come around and pay you all is good. 
Don't do the job if you can't afford to sit on it until they come around.
Friends are friends…
On the flip side of it, if it's going to be 100 bucks tell them to give you a 100 bucks and you will get it for them when you can. It can work both ways with friends.
I think personally it depends on how big ($$$) the job is and I decide at that point what is the best way to go.


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

> I find a good *open handed slap* across the mouth works well.
> 
> - TheFridge


sissy…..lol


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## doubleDD (Oct 21, 2012)

Jeff, that's a shame when it happens, and unfortunately it does. I tell people I don't do stuff like that anymore. And if it something I do like but let's say more expensive lumber or finish or whatever, I will bluntly ask them straight up, friend or not. I tell them I'm retired and on a budget and just enjoy my hobby now so I''ll need something up front.


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## jeffswildwood (Dec 26, 2012)

Awesome Dave, That's my thoughts. None of my projects are expensive, a lot of times I do them because of the challenge of doing something new. Most of my pricing is material cost back with a little for me. I have had many say I don't charge enough and give a tip. That's a good day. As I said earlier I am working on some local craft fair items (in July) and may concentrate on that and projects for the Wife for awhile. Back to shop fun. There is also a tool swap coming up..


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## canadianchips (Mar 12, 2010)

The only material I supply are nails, screws and glues. I tell the people I work for I cannot afford to buy materials, either they set up an account at our local lumber yard or they buy it somewhere else.
I was burnt 1 year ago…......1 months wages for labor. Glad I didnt supply that " B" material too. Its gone to collections…..
I concentrate on small jobs I like to do…..getting to old to "HAVE to do it jobs" I want the remaining few years I have to be fun…..


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## Mike_D_S (May 3, 2012)

jeff,

I agree with the others above. I don't do a lot of projects for money, but most of the pieces I do are for people who are friends of friends via word of mouth. I always write up an estimate with the pertinent details and some basic terms. One of the terms is is between 40% to 50% deposit to get started (the percentage varies depending on the relative value of the materials). The terms very clearly state that once I purchase materials and make the first cut the deposit is non-refundable. The other term is that if they don't pay the balance and take delivery within 30 days after I finish it they lose their deposit.

Since it's a hobby, I can sort of eat the man hours I put in a piece, but hobby money spent on materials is family money and I'm stingy with family money. So at least the materials are covered and the only thing at risk is my time.

Mike


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## DirtyMike (Dec 6, 2015)

> When you go into business you ll realize that friends and family will screw you quicker than a stranger, or at least more willing to waste your time. When family ask me to build them something I tell them to buy the wood and we ll pick it up together, that usually puts the kibosh on things if they aren t sincere.
> 
> - Rick M


This is the dirty truth that many people wont say. What kind of friends would do this kind of thing anyway?


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

I think that with friends projects, I would start with the material Bill.

So you can show them here is my direct cost, if I work for free and don't pay the electric bill.

Often, it seems, folks are sure that "the guy next door" can knock out a bookcase for less than you can buy an MDF one at Ikea or Walmart.

I think their panic is because they didn't think such a project would cost as much as it does.


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## bondogaposis (Dec 18, 2011)

Often, it seems, folks are sure that "the guy next door" can knock out a bookcase for less than you can buy an MDF one at Ikea or Walmart.

Yes, that is true, some people think that because wood grows on trees it is therefore cheap.


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## buckbuster31 (Dec 27, 2016)

I don't build for friends typically because I feel guilty in charging them. In saying that, I will do 5-6 projects per month for other people and always require a 25% downpayment


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## dday (Jun 27, 2014)

In the first place, we tend to use the term "friend" way too loosely. A true friend wouldn't stiff you like that. 
I've made a few projects for friends but usually only take payment in food or other bartered trade.

Your solution might just be to build what you want, throwing in some challenging new stuff, and invite your friends to come visit your booth at the craft show. Maybe give them a 10% discount on the sell price.. that way, they get a deal as a "friend" and you get your money.


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