# Hand Tools doings



## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

*Hand cut box joint*

Since I am not able to be in the power tooled shop, I'm twiddling away in my spare bedroom doing hand tool stuff. Having never hand cut a joint, and after trying a dovetail, without really knowing what I was doing - I decided to back track a bit and do a simple box joint instead. I say simple, but its not as easy as it looks. First you have to be able to saw straight which, I've found out, is not an easy task in and of itself.

Anyway, since we learn by our mistakes, and since I know I will make many more, I thought I'd share my first hand cut box joint. I'm glad we are on the internet so I can't hear the laughing and/or groans. Of course, it would be ok to hear the-- "hey that looks like my first one." But can't have it both ways.

I digress. Here is the joint and the crown saw I used.









Now having seen these, let my put in a caveat-I did not have a square board, so some of the gaps is from that. I need to make a shooting board so I can square up the ends. But by eyeball, this board was pretty close so I just used it. So there's my defense and I'm sticking to it!


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## GaryK (Jun 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Hand cut box joint*
> 
> Since I am not able to be in the power tooled shop, I'm twiddling away in my spare bedroom doing hand tool stuff. Having never hand cut a joint, and after trying a dovetail, without really knowing what I was doing - I decided to back track a bit and do a simple box joint instead. I say simple, but its not as easy as it looks. First you have to be able to saw straight which, I've found out, is not an easy task in and of itself.
> 
> ...


That's not bad for your first attempt. You will get better everytime you do it.


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## offseid (Jan 16, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *Hand cut box joint*
> 
> Since I am not able to be in the power tooled shop, I'm twiddling away in my spare bedroom doing hand tool stuff. Having never hand cut a joint, and after trying a dovetail, without really knowing what I was doing - I decided to back track a bit and do a simple box joint instead. I say simple, but its not as easy as it looks. First you have to be able to saw straight which, I've found out, is not an easy task in and of itself.
> 
> ...


That's actually quite good. I just read last night that box joints are almost exclusively machined, since they're so hard to do by hand. So I, having no machines, have decided that I will have no box joints in my work!


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## Gofor (Jan 12, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *Hand cut box joint*
> 
> Since I am not able to be in the power tooled shop, I'm twiddling away in my spare bedroom doing hand tool stuff. Having never hand cut a joint, and after trying a dovetail, without really knowing what I was doing - I decided to back track a bit and do a simple box joint instead. I say simple, but its not as easy as it looks. First you have to be able to saw straight which, I've found out, is not an easy task in and of itself.
> 
> ...


Not bad. I found that using a knife to make my layout marks (as opposed to a pencil) greatly improved my accuracy on fitting joints. Keeping the corners on my chisel square and sharp also helped me get the waste out of the corners so I got a tighter fit in the bottom of the slot, altho you can "cheat" a little by rounding the inside edge of the pin and just leave the exposed end square. Yours sure looks better than my first attempt!! That appears to be white oak, which is not the easiest wood to hand joint either, because of the open grain.

Go


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Hand cut box joint*
> 
> Since I am not able to be in the power tooled shop, I'm twiddling away in my spare bedroom doing hand tool stuff. Having never hand cut a joint, and after trying a dovetail, without really knowing what I was doing - I decided to back track a bit and do a simple box joint instead. I say simple, but its not as easy as it looks. First you have to be able to saw straight which, I've found out, is not an easy task in and of itself.
> 
> ...


Thanks guys.

Gofor--I just got a marking knife. I'm going to try using that the next set. The wood is red oak left over from a cabinet I built several years ago.

The sharp chisel part I have trouble with still. But my sharpening skills are getting better.


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## kshipp (Jan 21, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *Hand cut box joint*
> 
> Since I am not able to be in the power tooled shop, I'm twiddling away in my spare bedroom doing hand tool stuff. Having never hand cut a joint, and after trying a dovetail, without really knowing what I was doing - I decided to back track a bit and do a simple box joint instead. I say simple, but its not as easy as it looks. First you have to be able to saw straight which, I've found out, is not an easy task in and of itself.
> 
> ...


That looks like a pretty nice joint. You're more brave than I am for trying that by hand. 
I'm curious if you cut each board separately or just offset the second one and cut them both at the same time. 
Either way, very interesting project.


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## sbryan55 (Dec 8, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Hand cut box joint*
> 
> Since I am not able to be in the power tooled shop, I'm twiddling away in my spare bedroom doing hand tool stuff. Having never hand cut a joint, and after trying a dovetail, without really knowing what I was doing - I decided to back track a bit and do a simple box joint instead. I say simple, but its not as easy as it looks. First you have to be able to saw straight which, I've found out, is not an easy task in and of itself.
> 
> ...


Betsy,

This joint looks fine to me. I agree with Gary, in that, here practice does make perfect. Keep working at it. You will get better both on the joints and physically as well.

Thanks for sharing this (You are far more courageous than I am. I still haven't repaired my camera so that is the excuse I will use for not posting my hand cut dovetails, which would be a primer more in how not to cut them.)


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Hand cut box joint*
> 
> Since I am not able to be in the power tooled shop, I'm twiddling away in my spare bedroom doing hand tool stuff. Having never hand cut a joint, and after trying a dovetail, without really knowing what I was doing - I decided to back track a bit and do a simple box joint instead. I say simple, but its not as easy as it looks. First you have to be able to saw straight which, I've found out, is not an easy task in and of itself.
> 
> ...


Kyle - I cut one board at a time. I'm going to try to do the staggering with two boards today and see what happens.


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## Blake (Oct 17, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Hand cut box joint*
> 
> Since I am not able to be in the power tooled shop, I'm twiddling away in my spare bedroom doing hand tool stuff. Having never hand cut a joint, and after trying a dovetail, without really knowing what I was doing - I decided to back track a bit and do a simple box joint instead. I say simple, but its not as easy as it looks. First you have to be able to saw straight which, I've found out, is not an easy task in and of itself.
> 
> ...


Betsy, You're a brave soul. Not for posting this, but for jumping into hand-cut joinery. I am too timed to try.

I might be wrong, but I think if you stagger them and cut both at the same time you will get gaps equal to the kerf of the saw.


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## SST (Nov 30, 2006)

Betsy said:


> *Hand cut box joint*
> 
> Since I am not able to be in the power tooled shop, I'm twiddling away in my spare bedroom doing hand tool stuff. Having never hand cut a joint, and after trying a dovetail, without really knowing what I was doing - I decided to back track a bit and do a simple box joint instead. I say simple, but its not as easy as it looks. First you have to be able to saw straight which, I've found out, is not an easy task in and of itself.
> 
> ...


I think they look great for a first effort. My first attempt of a hand cut joint was much worse. I like the idea of using a marking knife, too. That's gotta help. (providing I can actually cut along that line. Hand tools aren't without their frustrations, but it's really a great feeling to make something that way. -SST


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Hand cut box joint*
> 
> Since I am not able to be in the power tooled shop, I'm twiddling away in my spare bedroom doing hand tool stuff. Having never hand cut a joint, and after trying a dovetail, without really knowing what I was doing - I decided to back track a bit and do a simple box joint instead. I say simple, but its not as easy as it looks. First you have to be able to saw straight which, I've found out, is not an easy task in and of itself.
> 
> ...


You are right Blake!!!

thanks S - right now I'm not frustrated yet. But I'm sure I'll get there if I don't get good results soon. I get impatient - but that's part of using hand tools - you have to be willing to put in the time to get good at it. I'm going to keep trying though!


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

*2nd stab at hand cut box joint - a touch better*

I tried the box joint again. I must say I did better this time. Blake was right - hand cutting you can't really stack two boards together (staggered) without gaps from the saw kerf. So these are cut one board at a time. I still don't have square boards so that is part of the gap issue. Tomorrow I might venture out to the shop to do a few quick cuts to get some square stock.

Anyway, I thought I did ok on these - I could spend some time doing a little paring and I think the joint would be almost acceptable.



You can see on this shot that I'm also playing with hand cut dados. This one is a definite "not good." But I'm working on it.





If nothing else, I'm passing time and learning how to cut straight!


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## GaryK (Jun 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *2nd stab at hand cut box joint - a touch better*
> 
> I tried the box joint again. I must say I did better this time. Blake was right - hand cutting you can't really stack two boards together (staggered) without gaps from the saw kerf. So these are cut one board at a time. I still don't have square boards so that is part of the gap issue. Tomorrow I might venture out to the shop to do a few quick cuts to get some square stock.
> 
> ...


Looks like you need to cut them a little deeper when you clean them up and they would look great.

Just takes time and practice.


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## sbryan55 (Dec 8, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *2nd stab at hand cut box joint - a touch better*
> 
> I tried the box joint again. I must say I did better this time. Blake was right - hand cutting you can't really stack two boards together (staggered) without gaps from the saw kerf. So these are cut one board at a time. I still don't have square boards so that is part of the gap issue. Tomorrow I might venture out to the shop to do a few quick cuts to get some square stock.
> 
> ...


Betsy,

A definite improvement from your first one. Practice is paying dividends I see. Keep at it.


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## jockmike2 (Oct 10, 2006)

Betsy said:


> *2nd stab at hand cut box joint - a touch better*
> 
> I tried the box joint again. I must say I did better this time. Blake was right - hand cutting you can't really stack two boards together (staggered) without gaps from the saw kerf. So these are cut one board at a time. I still don't have square boards so that is part of the gap issue. Tomorrow I might venture out to the shop to do a few quick cuts to get some square stock.
> 
> ...


Like Gary said, take a little out of the bottom and you got a good looking joint. mike


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

*My first dovetails - warning - kind of ugly*

Well it's taken several attempts but here is my first set of dovetails. I realize that it's only two tails and one pin-- but a girl has to start somewhere.

The first pic is after the cutting. Not so good.



This second photo is after a little paring. Actually a little to much. But hey it fits. Sorta, kind of….



Frank Klaus has nothing to worry about with me. But I'll catch him yet. Just wait and see.


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## Paul_D (Feb 20, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *My first dovetails - warning - kind of ugly*
> 
> Well it's taken several attempts but here is my first set of dovetails. I realize that it's only two tails and one pin-- but a girl has to start somewhere.
> 
> ...


I've never hand cut a dovetail but might just give it a try one of these days. I think you did fine for a first attempt and you definitely learned a few things now about hand cutting dovetails.


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## croessler (Jun 22, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *My first dovetails - warning - kind of ugly*
> 
> Well it's taken several attempts but here is my first set of dovetails. I realize that it's only two tails and one pin-- but a girl has to start somewhere.
> 
> ...


You've gotten further than me… I have not yet tried hand cutting dovetails.


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *My first dovetails - warning - kind of ugly*
> 
> Well it's taken several attempts but here is my first set of dovetails. I realize that it's only two tails and one pin-- but a girl has to start somewhere.
> 
> ...


Paul and Chris - you should give it a try. It's one of those things that when you finally are on the right path is pretty neat. And it's not a bad way to spend an afternoon twiddling in the shop.


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## sbryan55 (Dec 8, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *My first dovetails - warning - kind of ugly*
> 
> Well it's taken several attempts but here is my first set of dovetails. I realize that it's only two tails and one pin-- but a girl has to start somewhere.
> 
> ...


Betsy,

I am glad to see that you are making progress. I have been working on these off and on (but mostly off) for the past two or three weeks (time flies when we are having fun) and I can honestly say yours are much better than mine. Maybe Gary was right when he said that with practice your technique will improve. It seems to be working for you.

Maybe I will go in and try another set tonight after finishing these posts.


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## Thuan (Dec 12, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *My first dovetails - warning - kind of ugly*
> 
> Well it's taken several attempts but here is my first set of dovetails. I realize that it's only two tails and one pin-- but a girl has to start somewhere.
> 
> ...


Betsy,

Unfortunately, your pins are up-side-down, you need it to lock into the tails, other than that, looks like a good start.


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *My first dovetails - warning - kind of ugly*
> 
> Well it's taken several attempts but here is my first set of dovetails. I realize that it's only two tails and one pin-- but a girl has to start somewhere.
> 
> ...


Thuan--- YOU WIN!!!! This was a test of the emergency dovetail warning system. 

Knew something was wrong. Paring is not going to help that. Now all you other guys should not feel so bad.

I'm laughing at myself. Geez I thought I at least had the concept.

Thanks for being honest with me Thuan.


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## teenagewoodworker (Jan 31, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *My first dovetails - warning - kind of ugly*
> 
> Well it's taken several attempts but here is my first set of dovetails. I realize that it's only two tails and one pin-- but a girl has to start somewhere.
> 
> ...


ya dovetails are really hard to cut. i often have trouble with them in all my attempts too. i guess that the only way to get better is practice. keep up the good work and keep us posted on your progress.


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *My first dovetails - warning - kind of ugly*
> 
> Well it's taken several attempts but here is my first set of dovetails. I realize that it's only two tails and one pin-- but a girl has to start somewhere.
> 
> ...


Wait - now I'm confused. Isn't the pin supposed to be bigger on the bottom and smaller on top and the tail bigger on the top and smaller on the bottom?


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## GaryK (Jun 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *My first dovetails - warning - kind of ugly*
> 
> Well it's taken several attempts but here is my first set of dovetails. I realize that it's only two tails and one pin-- but a girl has to start somewhere.
> 
> ...


Thuan is correct. look here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Joinery-throughdovetail.gif


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *My first dovetails - warning - kind of ugly*
> 
> Well it's taken several attempts but here is my first set of dovetails. I realize that it's only two tails and one pin-- but a girl has to start somewhere.
> 
> ...


Thanks. Guess it's back to the shop to try again.


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## Lakey (Jan 27, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *My first dovetails - warning - kind of ugly*
> 
> Well it's taken several attempts but here is my first set of dovetails. I realize that it's only two tails and one pin-- but a girl has to start somewhere.
> 
> ...


Regardless of which way they are supposed to go, you did a darned good job on your first try - especially considering it looks like oak - oak is pretty hard and unforgiving when it comes to paring and the like. Try some in poplar, or cherry - you'll be surprised at the difference.


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *My first dovetails - warning - kind of ugly*
> 
> Well it's taken several attempts but here is my first set of dovetails. I realize that it's only two tails and one pin-- but a girl has to start somewhere.
> 
> ...


Thanks Lakey. I obviously missed out on a point to two. Trying to learn on m own is tough. I'm a visual, you show me, I can do it, type of learner. I'll be glad when my vacation comes and I can get to my hand tools class in Kentucky. Maybe I will learn something to turn on the light bulb.


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## Woodshopfreak (Feb 26, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *My first dovetails - warning - kind of ugly*
> 
> Well it's taken several attempts but here is my first set of dovetails. I realize that it's only two tails and one pin-- but a girl has to start somewhere.
> 
> ...


I had the same results. Part of the problem is I don't have the right tools. I was useing a hack saw, and a dull chisle. lol. This is one skill I belive will be very hard to learn for me. I am not good with the hand cut dovetails. I always screw something up amd make it look terable. I am going to get some nicer chsles and that might change the results. Good luck. May post what my dovetail attempt looked like.


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## offseid (Jan 16, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *My first dovetails - warning - kind of ugly*
> 
> Well it's taken several attempts but here is my first set of dovetails. I realize that it's only two tails and one pin-- but a girl has to start somewhere.
> 
> ...


Betsy, I think there are two rites of passage for every Dovetail Cutter: doing their first one, and posting pictures of it. So well done, you've passed through the gauntlet.


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## MarkM (Sep 9, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *My first dovetails - warning - kind of ugly*
> 
> Well it's taken several attempts but here is my first set of dovetails. I realize that it's only two tails and one pin-- but a girl has to start somewhere.
> 
> ...


Betsy,

Just saw this. Bravo on your first set of dovetails - it's the first step in trying that's a doozie!

With that said, I believe that Thuan is correct. At first I could not tell whether I was looking at the pin or tail end of the board in the photos. The tail cuts across the thickness of the board should be straight across. Only the pins are angles across the thickness.

Without getting into any religious wars over which is right to cut first, I'm interested in what you cut first? I have done both and I seem to get better results when I do tails first (that's also the way I first taught myself to do them). I think that it may be easier, visually to see the tails when you mark them on the board and then mark and cut the pins from them. However, there are other advantages & drawbacks to each method. I am just kind of a visual learner and when I can "see" the tails, I can visualize the joint.

I recently *blogged* about dovetailing the drawer onthe table I'm making. While it was not meant to be a complete tutorial, it might benefit you to see the basics of how I went about it.

One other thing. If you scale your pins (i.e. the space between the tails when you marke the tails out) to be smaller it will look much better and it will also scream hand cut because there are no router bits than can cut pins as small as those available by hand. Above all else, keep practicing and you will get better!


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## Yettiman (Mar 2, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *My first dovetails - warning - kind of ugly*
> 
> Well it's taken several attempts but here is my first set of dovetails. I realize that it's only two tails and one pin-- but a girl has to start somewhere.
> 
> ...


Well done Betsy, a good post, you have generated a lot of comments and a LOT of enthusiasm (esp in me) I have always shyed away from tryiing, but you know what, I'm going to give it a go.

Thanks again


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## MikeLingenfelter (Feb 19, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *My first dovetails - warning - kind of ugly*
> 
> Well it's taken several attempts but here is my first set of dovetails. I realize that it's only two tails and one pin-- but a girl has to start somewhere.
> 
> ...


I see you are using oak for your first dovetails. I suggest using a "softer" wood to learn on. I practice with poplar, it's a "softer" hardwood. It's easy to cut and it doesn't cost too much.


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *My first dovetails - warning - kind of ugly*
> 
> Well it's taken several attempts but here is my first set of dovetails. I realize that it's only two tails and one pin-- but a girl has to start somewhere.
> 
> ...


Thanks everyone for your encouragement. I'm going to try again today to see if I can get this "right." I think I've got it worked out in my head, but that's a few inches from my hands - so we'll see.

Mark - I cut the pins first and then the tails. I'm going to try the other was around and see what that does for me to. I'll have to check out your drawer and see if that helps me to.

Albert - that's always a confusing point for me to. But since I've been trying to cut them, I can see the difference in them. But not sure I can describe it well.

Well, back to the shop. I will post my next attempt. Wish me luck!


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## Blake (Oct 17, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *My first dovetails - warning - kind of ugly*
> 
> Well it's taken several attempts but here is my first set of dovetails. I realize that it's only two tails and one pin-- but a girl has to start somewhere.
> 
> ...


Beautious!


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## aaronmolloy (Jan 19, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *My first dovetails - warning - kind of ugly*
> 
> Well it's taken several attempts but here is my first set of dovetails. I realize that it's only two tails and one pin-- but a girl has to start somewhere.
> 
> ...


Good attempt but the pins are upside down


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## Karson (May 9, 2006)

Betsy said:


> *My first dovetails - warning - kind of ugly*
> 
> Well it's taken several attempts but here is my first set of dovetails. I realize that it's only two tails and one pin-- but a girl has to start somewhere.
> 
> ...


The only way I can remember which is pins and which is tails. Is this

You put a half pin on each side of the board. So the one that has wood on the outside is the pin board. They are cut straight up and down and angled to the back side of the board.

Great first try Betsy. I haven't started my first yet, but I did buy a dovetail saw.


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## Texasgaloot (Apr 8, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *My first dovetails - warning - kind of ugly*
> 
> Well it's taken several attempts but here is my first set of dovetails. I realize that it's only two tails and one pin-- but a girl has to start somewhere.
> 
> ...


Today in our clinic at WIA Frank Klausz quipped, "Putty and paint for the carpenter that ain't!" Frank had to start somewhere, and his father wasn't too gentle with him about it, either. As I remember it from his drawer making video, "The first drawer I make I show to my father. He threw it in corner and said 'Try again.'"

You've already started to catch hiim!


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

*Second try at hand cut dovetails --- picture heavy*

OK - I failed my first attempt. This attempt at least is closer although the end product does not fit. But I'm getting the idea. So I took lots of pictures to show what I did in steps. I did switch to using popular instead of the red oak. That was a good thing. I definitely need to be more accurate cutting and my paring skills lack quite a lot. But here goes.

First is getting the orientation of your piece. This is important if you are doing a drawer and need the sides to fit!



First half pin - cut with the saw horizontal and going at an angle to the left.



Second half pin - cut with saw horizontal and going at an angle to the right.



Both half pins from the top.



Cutting progress



All the cuts from the front and top.





Chopping out the tails



Tails are cut away - leaving the pins.



Pins from the top.



Placed the pins on the corresponding board to mark the tails to be cut.



Tails are marked out.



Ready to cut out the pins.



Half pin cut off.



Tails from the top.



Tails chopped out. Needs a little clean up (ok a lot).



The first fitting-- really off. But the concept is there.



After some paring - still needs lots of work. But I'm tired and my chisels need sharpening. That's something I'm very much still working on.



Well - still no where near even respectable but I had some fun in the shop and practice makes perfect. But I'm done for the day.


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## teenagewoodworker (Jan 31, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *Second try at hand cut dovetails --- picture heavy*
> 
> OK - I failed my first attempt. This attempt at least is closer although the end product does not fit. But I'm getting the idea. So I took lots of pictures to show what I did in steps. I did switch to using popular instead of the red oak. That was a good thing. I definitely need to be more accurate cutting and my paring skills lack quite a lot. But here goes.
> 
> ...


getting better. i love this progression. i can't wait until the next one. i know that you'll get it soon.


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## HybridIndie (Jul 4, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Second try at hand cut dovetails --- picture heavy*
> 
> OK - I failed my first attempt. This attempt at least is closer although the end product does not fit. But I'm getting the idea. So I took lots of pictures to show what I did in steps. I did switch to using popular instead of the red oak. That was a good thing. I definitely need to be more accurate cutting and my paring skills lack quite a lot. But here goes.
> 
> ...


I've been doing things like this for months - I head to my shop in the afternoon and pull the chisels, Dozuki and some scrap wood, cut a set of dovetails and then move on to things that help pay my bills. I'm a firm believer in craftsmanship and won't allow myself to do anything requiring power before I can do it by hand first. You should have seen my first dados =D but practice truly makes perfect, keep it up


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## GaryK (Jun 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Second try at hand cut dovetails --- picture heavy*
> 
> OK - I failed my first attempt. This attempt at least is closer although the end product does not fit. But I'm getting the idea. So I took lots of pictures to show what I did in steps. I did switch to using popular instead of the red oak. That was a good thing. I definitely need to be more accurate cutting and my paring skills lack quite a lot. But here goes.
> 
> ...


Looks pretty good Betsy! You'll be an ol' pro in no time.

Other than the angles being a little too steep it looks great. I think the angle should be between 7 and 14 degrees depending on if you are using soft or hard wood. I'd have to look it up to be sure.

Keep at it!


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## MikeLingenfelter (Feb 19, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Second try at hand cut dovetails --- picture heavy*
> 
> OK - I failed my first attempt. This attempt at least is closer although the end product does not fit. But I'm getting the idea. So I took lots of pictures to show what I did in steps. I did switch to using popular instead of the red oak. That was a good thing. I definitely need to be more accurate cutting and my paring skills lack quite a lot. But here goes.
> 
> ...


There is always the question, Pins or Tails first. I'm a Tails first guy. If you cut the Tails first you only have to concentrate on the perpendicular cut across the end grain. If your angle cut down the sides of the tail is off a little, it's no big deal. If you cut the Pins first you have two "perfect" cuts you have to make on the Tails. The perpendicular across the end grain and the angle cut that was transferred from the pins. I think Tails first is easier for beginners. I know I'm going to get an earful from the Pins first crowd. I recommend trying it both ways and find out if one way works better for you.


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## MarkM (Sep 9, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Second try at hand cut dovetails --- picture heavy*
> 
> OK - I failed my first attempt. This attempt at least is closer although the end product does not fit. But I'm getting the idea. So I took lots of pictures to show what I did in steps. I did switch to using popular instead of the red oak. That was a good thing. I definitely need to be more accurate cutting and my paring skills lack quite a lot. But here goes.
> 
> ...


OK Betsy - you are getting there. Here are some points to consider:

As Gary stated, the angle on the tails is a bit too steep usually it is 1:6 for softwood and 1:8 for hardwood. That means for 1:8 every increment over goes up 8 increments (inches, millimeters, feet - it does not matter) I usually just make two ticks on the edge of my bench with a pencil an inch apart and then measure 8 inches up from one and set the bevel gage to that angle.

The pins still could use to be smaller and that would improve the looks when completed but, this is a detail that you can work on after you've got the technique down.

As Mike pointed out (I did as well in my response to your post on the previous attempt) cutting the tails first can be a little easier because the remaining pin cuts are a bit less fussy.

The biggest issue that I see with what you are doing is that your tail cuts are at a compound angle and they do not need to be (this is why they do not fit). The tails should be cut perpendicular across the end of the board and at the angle that you've marked out from the pins. So, in the pins first scenario as you've done, after you've marked the tails simply get your square and square each tail line across the end of the board and then cut the tails.


----------



## lew (Feb 13, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *Second try at hand cut dovetails --- picture heavy*
> 
> OK - I failed my first attempt. This attempt at least is closer although the end product does not fit. But I'm getting the idea. So I took lots of pictures to show what I did in steps. I did switch to using popular instead of the red oak. That was a good thing. I definitely need to be more accurate cutting and my paring skills lack quite a lot. But here goes.
> 
> ...


Betsy,

I don't think there is anything more satisfying than accomplishing hand cut dovetails. Here are two sites I find helpful. I am also learning to cut them and the advice everyone has given is rite on.

http://home.nj.rr.com/afoust/dovetails.html

http://www.handcutdovetails.com/

Hope this helps,

Lew


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Second try at hand cut dovetails --- picture heavy*
> 
> OK - I failed my first attempt. This attempt at least is closer although the end product does not fit. But I'm getting the idea. So I took lots of pictures to show what I did in steps. I did switch to using popular instead of the red oak. That was a good thing. I definitely need to be more accurate cutting and my paring skills lack quite a lot. But here goes.
> 
> ...


Wow, I really appreciate your help. I just posted my next try and they look better!

Mark - it was the compound angle that got me going-- I did not realize I was doing that.

Lew - I'll check out those sites. Thanks for posting them.


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## sbryan55 (Dec 8, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Second try at hand cut dovetails --- picture heavy*
> 
> OK - I failed my first attempt. This attempt at least is closer although the end product does not fit. But I'm getting the idea. So I took lots of pictures to show what I did in steps. I did switch to using popular instead of the red oak. That was a good thing. I definitely need to be more accurate cutting and my paring skills lack quite a lot. But here goes.
> 
> ...


Betsy,

You really are making progress. These are looking better and better. At this rate you may not need to go to your class at Kelly Mehler's this summer.

Keep working at it you have a lot of support here. We all are wishing you success.


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Second try at hand cut dovetails --- picture heavy*
> 
> OK - I failed my first attempt. This attempt at least is closer although the end product does not fit. But I'm getting the idea. So I took lots of pictures to show what I did in steps. I did switch to using popular instead of the red oak. That was a good thing. I definitely need to be more accurate cutting and my paring skills lack quite a lot. But here goes.
> 
> ...


Thanks Scott. But I think I'll still go to school - especially since its paid for!


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## Chipncut (Aug 18, 2006)

Betsy said:


> *Second try at hand cut dovetails --- picture heavy*
> 
> OK - I failed my first attempt. This attempt at least is closer although the end product does not fit. But I'm getting the idea. So I took lots of pictures to show what I did in steps. I did switch to using popular instead of the red oak. That was a good thing. I definitely need to be more accurate cutting and my paring skills lack quite a lot. But here goes.
> 
> ...


I think it would be easier for you, if shrunk the angle to a bout 7 degrees.


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

*Third try - hand cut dovetails ---- Sooooo much better*

Well these are more like it. Still not very pretty, but better. I know I said I was done for the day, but when I read Mark's comment about compound angles a light bulb went off. So I tried again. I also did tails first.

First a shot from the front.



Now a shot from the top - really not to pretty -



I think some of the mess will get better when I can actually sharpen my chisels. I also waxed my saw which really helped me in the muscle power realm.

Now I really am done for the day. I've been messing with dovetails all day and have not done any of the "get ready for work stuff"!

Thanks for all your help all.


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## sbryan55 (Dec 8, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Third try - hand cut dovetails ---- Sooooo much better*
> 
> Well these are more like it. Still not very pretty, but better. I know I said I was done for the day, but when I read Mark's comment about compound angles a light bulb went off. So I tried again. I also did tails first.
> 
> ...


This is even better than the last post. You are an inspiration to all of us struggling to cut these joints.


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## benomatic42 (Oct 21, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Third try - hand cut dovetails ---- Sooooo much better*
> 
> Well these are more like it. Still not very pretty, but better. I know I said I was done for the day, but when I read Mark's comment about compound angles a light bulb went off. So I tried again. I also did tails first.
> 
> ...


Betsy, I have yet try what you're doing, and I like the progress you've made, but more than anything I admire your willingness to try, try again. I am certain that you will conquer this joint.

Thanks for inspiring me.

-b


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## Blake (Oct 17, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Third try - hand cut dovetails ---- Sooooo much better*
> 
> Well these are more like it. Still not very pretty, but better. I know I said I was done for the day, but when I read Mark's comment about compound angles a light bulb went off. So I tried again. I also did tails first.
> 
> ...


You have amazing patience. Your practice will pay off. Hope you're feeling better?!


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## lew (Feb 13, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *Third try - hand cut dovetails ---- Sooooo much better*
> 
> Well these are more like it. Still not very pretty, but better. I know I said I was done for the day, but when I read Mark's comment about compound angles a light bulb went off. So I tried again. I also did tails first.
> 
> ...


Betsy,

Tremendous progress in such a short time! You are to be commended!

When I finished my first set of dovetails, I rather timidly showed them to a non-woodworker friend who collects antique blanket chests. I apologized for some of the rather sloppy fit on some of the joints. I figured the 18th and 19th century craftspersons all made perfectly fitting dovetail joints. He then asked me to carefully inspect the dovetails on the some of his blanket chests. Much to my surprise, many of the joints had small shims to close the imperfections in the gaps. He told me that this was not an uncommon practice. Seems some of the craftspersons were not as skilled as we are lead to believe.

That said, we all strive for perfection so keep practicing and the skills will come. A sharp chisel, a marking knife and a light touch will serve you well.

Lew


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## naperville (Jan 28, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *Third try - hand cut dovetails ---- Sooooo much better*
> 
> Well these are more like it. Still not very pretty, but better. I know I said I was done for the day, but when I read Mark's comment about compound angles a light bulb went off. So I tried again. I also did tails first.
> 
> ...


Betsy,
It is like riding a bicycle… Once you get it, you get it. keep up the good work, you're doing fine. If you would like some help with the layout, check out this link. http://www.blocklayer.com/Woodjoints/DovetailEng.aspx

Sincerely,
Tom


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## sporky (Feb 11, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Third try - hand cut dovetails ---- Sooooo much better*
> 
> Well these are more like it. Still not very pretty, but better. I know I said I was done for the day, but when I read Mark's comment about compound angles a light bulb went off. So I tried again. I also did tails first.
> 
> ...


try getting a DVD on the subject. There are TONS of them. I am was pretty good at them, and then I picked up a couple DVD's on it and WOW….even better and faster as well.

Proper tools help, but it really is the person that makes the difference. Oh…and if i haven't made any in awhile, I will practice on some scrap or make some shop related box to get back in practice.

Let us know how you do


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## GaryK (Jun 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Third try - hand cut dovetails ---- Sooooo much better*
> 
> Well these are more like it. Still not very pretty, but better. I know I said I was done for the day, but when I read Mark's comment about compound angles a light bulb went off. So I tried again. I also did tails first.
> 
> ...


Getting better all the time - As the Beatles would say.


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## rikkor (Oct 17, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Third try - hand cut dovetails ---- Sooooo much better*
> 
> Well these are more like it. Still not very pretty, but better. I know I said I was done for the day, but when I read Mark's comment about compound angles a light bulb went off. So I tried again. I also did tails first.
> 
> ...


Nobody cut perfect dovetails on the first attempt. It is a skill like any other, it must be learned through practice. One of the magazine editors (I think Chris Schwartz) wrote about cutting about ten a day for 30 days in his quest to learn it. Keep at it.


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Third try - hand cut dovetails ---- Sooooo much better*
> 
> Well these are more like it. Still not very pretty, but better. I know I said I was done for the day, but when I read Mark's comment about compound angles a light bulb went off. So I tried again. I also did tails first.
> 
> ...


Thanks for all your comments guys. I appreciate the encouragement and the help!

I like the idea of shims to--always a way to get around things.

Tom - that site is awesome.

Matt - I have some of those videos. But nothing substitutes actually doing. Kind of makes it all make sense when you actually start cutting.

Blake - yes I am getting better. I've been twidling a bit in the "power shop" the last week or so. Not to much though. I'm worried about getting my chairs done for the charity auction that's set for April 5. But I'm almost done - I have to do the footstools and table. But those are pretty quick and very easy projects. Long and short though I am feeling better. Thanks for thinking of me.


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## Chipncut (Aug 18, 2006)

Betsy said:


> *Third try - hand cut dovetails ---- Sooooo much better*
> 
> Well these are more like it. Still not very pretty, but better. I know I said I was done for the day, but when I read Mark's comment about compound angles a light bulb went off. So I tried again. I also did tails first.
> 
> ...


Just keep on practicing, & it'll gradually come to you.


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## MarkM (Sep 9, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Third try - hand cut dovetails ---- Sooooo much better*
> 
> Well these are more like it. Still not very pretty, but better. I know I said I was done for the day, but when I read Mark's comment about compound angles a light bulb went off. So I tried again. I also did tails first.
> 
> ...


Betsy,

Now we are getting someplace - these look much better! You have made great progress ins a short amount of time.

The thing that I see now is that the pins have some pieces missing. That could be a signal that you have dull chisels and pieces ar breaking off when chopping out the waste. But, I also think that you could benefit when sawing the pins to cut just to the waste side of the line. Remember that if you did tails first and then marked the pins with a pencil, you are marking adjacent to the tail and that material still needs to stay there (based on the thickness of the pencil line. There might be some light paring necessary to fit them but, you will substantially reduce the gaps.

Your next set is going to be great!


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## Jon3 (Feb 28, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Third try - hand cut dovetails ---- Sooooo much better*
> 
> Well these are more like it. Still not very pretty, but better. I know I said I was done for the day, but when I read Mark's comment about compound angles a light bulb went off. So I tried again. I also did tails first.
> 
> ...


Keep it up. Definitely an acquired skill. (And one I know I haven't acquired yet!)


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## aaronmolloy (Jan 19, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *Third try - hand cut dovetails ---- Sooooo much better*
> 
> Well these are more like it. Still not very pretty, but better. I know I said I was done for the day, but when I read Mark's comment about compound angles a light bulb went off. So I tried again. I also did tails first.
> 
> ...


Horray you've nearly got them keep up the practice and you'll get there


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## Woodshopfreak (Feb 26, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *Third try - hand cut dovetails ---- Sooooo much better*
> 
> Well these are more like it. Still not very pretty, but better. I know I said I was done for the day, but when I read Mark's comment about compound angles a light bulb went off. So I tried again. I also did tails first.
> 
> ...


Great progress. I know what you mean by dull chisles, I have to sharpen mine as well. Looking for a new set though. I only have a $5 dollar set right now that is okay but need a nice set.


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## GMoney (Dec 27, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Third try - hand cut dovetails ---- Sooooo much better*
> 
> Well these are more like it. Still not very pretty, but better. I know I said I was done for the day, but when I read Mark's comment about compound angles a light bulb went off. So I tried again. I also did tails first.
> 
> ...


betsy,

you really need to find a way to sharpen those chisels. the difference in performance and the pleasure of working with a hand tool will be like night and day. what looks and feels like a struggle will be very different with a sharp tool. to tell you the truth the choices for sharpening are many and a lot of them work quite well. you'll have to do some research for yourself to see what you are willing to do/learn and what you're willing to spend. i use sanhpaper and glass along with a veritas honing guide. the set up cost was about $100 to get started. there are a couple of machines mentioned and reviewed here that apparently work quite well if you don't want to spend a lot of time sharpening and or learning about sharpening. the machines will cost more, about two and three times as much, some cost more. veritas and worksharp are the two that come to mind.

one more time because i found it remarkable. working with a sharp tool is a totally different experience.

good luck and keep practicing,


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## lew (Feb 13, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *Third try - hand cut dovetails ---- Sooooo much better*
> 
> Well these are more like it. Still not very pretty, but better. I know I said I was done for the day, but when I read Mark's comment about compound angles a light bulb went off. So I tried again. I also did tails first.
> 
> ...


Betsy,

The latest WoodCraft Magazine has and interesting article on dovetails. Some techiniques I had not seen before. Mite be worth a look, just to get another perspective.

Lew


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

*home made "vise"*

I'm just puttering around tonight. I thought I'd snap a couple of pictures of the homemade vise that I'm using on my bench. I made this because the face and tail vise on my cheapo workbench pretty much won't hold anything tight enough to saw or chop on. This was made out of a piece of scrap 3/4 ply. The size is arbitrary-I just took a piece and chopped it in half with the chop saw. I then hand chopped the slots for the screw and knobs and cleaned up the nasty edges (I'm still not a chopping queen) with a file. Added some cleats to the bottom so that the screws would slide easier across the bottom. This is clamped to my bench with two small clamps which makes it so I can move it out of the way when I don't need it. The size is accidently large enough to clamp a six inch board - which would probably be the largest drawer I would ever do.

I'm quite sure I've seen something like this somewhere, but don't know who to give credit to. The clamping strength is pretty amazing. For giggles I put in a board lying flat and in the vertical clamp and took a mallet and tried to get the board to move. Couldn't do it. So I think it's adequate for what I'm doing.

I probably could have done a better and neater job had I used my power tools, but I'm still taking it easy in that department.

Anyway, here it is.


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## Thuan (Dec 12, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *home made "vise"*
> 
> I'm just puttering around tonight. I thought I'd snap a couple of pictures of the homemade vise that I'm using on my bench. I made this because the face and tail vise on my cheapo workbench pretty much won't hold anything tight enough to saw or chop on. This was made out of a piece of scrap 3/4 ply. The size is arbitrary-I just took a piece and chopped it in half with the chop saw. I then hand chopped the slots for the screw and knobs and cleaned up the nasty edges (I'm still not a chopping queen) with a file. Added some cleats to the bottom so that the screws would slide easier across the bottom. This is clamped to my bench with two small clamps which makes it so I can move it out of the way when I don't need it. The size is accidently large enough to clamp a six inch board - which would probably be the largest drawer I would ever do.
> 
> ...


That is one good idea. I'm making one for my bench, I'll call it the Betsy Clamp.


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## GaryK (Jun 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *home made "vise"*
> 
> I'm just puttering around tonight. I thought I'd snap a couple of pictures of the homemade vise that I'm using on my bench. I made this because the face and tail vise on my cheapo workbench pretty much won't hold anything tight enough to saw or chop on. This was made out of a piece of scrap 3/4 ply. The size is arbitrary-I just took a piece and chopped it in half with the chop saw. I then hand chopped the slots for the screw and knobs and cleaned up the nasty edges (I'm still not a chopping queen) with a file. Added some cleats to the bottom so that the screws would slide easier across the bottom. This is clamped to my bench with two small clamps which makes it so I can move it out of the way when I don't need it. The size is accidently large enough to clamp a six inch board - which would probably be the largest drawer I would ever do.
> 
> ...


See Betsy, if you got Thuan making one, then it shows that you are on the right track.

Good job.


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## sbryan55 (Dec 8, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *home made "vise"*
> 
> I'm just puttering around tonight. I thought I'd snap a couple of pictures of the homemade vise that I'm using on my bench. I made this because the face and tail vise on my cheapo workbench pretty much won't hold anything tight enough to saw or chop on. This was made out of a piece of scrap 3/4 ply. The size is arbitrary-I just took a piece and chopped it in half with the chop saw. I then hand chopped the slots for the screw and knobs and cleaned up the nasty edges (I'm still not a chopping queen) with a file. Added some cleats to the bottom so that the screws would slide easier across the bottom. This is clamped to my bench with two small clamps which makes it so I can move it out of the way when I don't need it. The size is accidently large enough to clamp a six inch board - which would probably be the largest drawer I would ever do.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the update. I noticed it in you dovetail post and thought that is a nice idea.

Very practical project.


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *home made "vise"*
> 
> I'm just puttering around tonight. I thought I'd snap a couple of pictures of the homemade vise that I'm using on my bench. I made this because the face and tail vise on my cheapo workbench pretty much won't hold anything tight enough to saw or chop on. This was made out of a piece of scrap 3/4 ply. The size is arbitrary-I just took a piece and chopped it in half with the chop saw. I then hand chopped the slots for the screw and knobs and cleaned up the nasty edges (I'm still not a chopping queen) with a file. Added some cleats to the bottom so that the screws would slide easier across the bottom. This is clamped to my bench with two small clamps which makes it so I can move it out of the way when I don't need it. The size is accidently large enough to clamp a six inch board - which would probably be the largest drawer I would ever do.
> 
> ...


That's great Thuan - a tool with my name on it!!!! I'm glad I inspired you.

Just one of those things you make to solve a problem.


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## YorkshireStewart (Sep 20, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *home made "vise"*
> 
> I'm just puttering around tonight. I thought I'd snap a couple of pictures of the homemade vise that I'm using on my bench. I made this because the face and tail vise on my cheapo workbench pretty much won't hold anything tight enough to saw or chop on. This was made out of a piece of scrap 3/4 ply. The size is arbitrary-I just took a piece and chopped it in half with the chop saw. I then hand chopped the slots for the screw and knobs and cleaned up the nasty edges (I'm still not a chopping queen) with a file. Added some cleats to the bottom so that the screws would slide easier across the bottom. This is clamped to my bench with two small clamps which makes it so I can move it out of the way when I don't need it. The size is accidently large enough to clamp a six inch board - which would probably be the largest drawer I would ever do.
> 
> ...


I'll be making a Betsy Clamp too! I can see all sorts of uses for it.


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *home made "vise"*
> 
> I'm just puttering around tonight. I thought I'd snap a couple of pictures of the homemade vise that I'm using on my bench. I made this because the face and tail vise on my cheapo workbench pretty much won't hold anything tight enough to saw or chop on. This was made out of a piece of scrap 3/4 ply. The size is arbitrary-I just took a piece and chopped it in half with the chop saw. I then hand chopped the slots for the screw and knobs and cleaned up the nasty edges (I'm still not a chopping queen) with a file. Added some cleats to the bottom so that the screws would slide easier across the bottom. This is clamped to my bench with two small clamps which makes it so I can move it out of the way when I don't need it. The size is accidently large enough to clamp a six inch board - which would probably be the largest drawer I would ever do.
> 
> ...


Wow--I'm going across the pond!!!! I'm going to be famous! 

Seriously, glad I could inspire someone.


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

*ohhhhh I've really done it now!*

I made a rectangle! With only hand tools! No power! No noise! And its pretty darn close to square to boot!

the picture is a little fuzzy-- I had a hard time taking a picture and holding the square at the same time. (I need to get a tripod.)



Just imagine the possibilities!


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## GaryK (Jun 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *ohhhhh I've really done it now!*
> 
> I made a rectangle! With only hand tools! No power! No noise! And its pretty darn close to square to boot!
> 
> ...


Congratulations Betsy!


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## brunob (Dec 26, 2006)

Betsy said:


> *ohhhhh I've really done it now!*
> 
> I made a rectangle! With only hand tools! No power! No noise! And its pretty darn close to square to boot!
> 
> ...


I sometimes can't make it square even with power tools.


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *ohhhhh I've really done it now!*
> 
> I made a rectangle! With only hand tools! No power! No noise! And its pretty darn close to square to boot!
> 
> ...


Little successes-that's all I need.

Thanks guys.


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## teenagewoodworker (Jan 31, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *ohhhhh I've really done it now!*
> 
> I made a rectangle! With only hand tools! No power! No noise! And its pretty darn close to square to boot!
> 
> ...


great job. sooner or later you'll be making whole projects with only hand tools. keep up the great work.


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## offseid (Jan 16, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *ohhhhh I've really done it now!*
> 
> I made a rectangle! With only hand tools! No power! No noise! And its pretty darn close to square to boot!
> 
> ...


Hey, I need to try that sometime. I keep starting my projects from "pretty close"!


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## sbryan55 (Dec 8, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *ohhhhh I've really done it now!*
> 
> I made a rectangle! With only hand tools! No power! No noise! And its pretty darn close to square to boot!
> 
> ...


Congrats Betsy. Remember practice, practice, practice…...


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## jcees (Dec 31, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *ohhhhh I've really done it now!*
> 
> I made a rectangle! With only hand tools! No power! No noise! And its pretty darn close to square to boot!
> 
> ...


I understand the feeling, it's an epiphany. Now you'll never be the same. You'll demand more from everything you do because you "*know*" that you can make it *SQUARE*! Happy trails.

always,
J.C.


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## Dadoo (Jun 23, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *ohhhhh I've really done it now!*
> 
> I made a rectangle! With only hand tools! No power! No noise! And its pretty darn close to square to boot!
> 
> ...


I could never make a "square" rectangle! Love your blogs Betsy…Keep it up!


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

*It's a start, first all hand tool project*

I know this is really, really small, and it's only butt joints. However, each piece was hand cut, then squared on the shooting board, then chamered using my plane as a jointer. I put two coats of water lox and some wax to finish it off. So here is my brilliant first all hand tool project. It's just a hair over two inches tall.

Front view. I should have shot straight on as this angle makes the one side look funny.



Side view - i set the sides back a bit.



And why make something this small? To house my favorite Rhino of course!



It's not much but it's a step up from my rectangle in my last post!


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## GaryK (Jun 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *It's a start, first all hand tool project*
> 
> I know this is really, really small, and it's only butt joints. However, each piece was hand cut, then squared on the shooting board, then chamered using my plane as a jointer. I put two coats of water lox and some wax to finish it off. So here is my brilliant first all hand tool project. It's just a hair over two inches tall.
> 
> ...


Pretty good for hand tools. Are you feeling any better now that you got your blood flowing with woodwork?


----------



## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *It's a start, first all hand tool project*
> 
> I know this is really, really small, and it's only butt joints. However, each piece was hand cut, then squared on the shooting board, then chamered using my plane as a jointer. I put two coats of water lox and some wax to finish it off. So here is my brilliant first all hand tool project. It's just a hair over two inches tall.
> 
> ...


Woodworking does help. I'm glad I've dove into hand tools because I can do something even when I'm ill and not be afraid of loosing any body parts. The most I could get would be a bad cut. I'd never think of going out to the power tools when I'm down like I have been. But I am getting better. I have my last test this Thursday and hopefully that will turn out OK.

thanks for asking. A box is next!


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## sbryan55 (Dec 8, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *It's a start, first all hand tool project*
> 
> I know this is really, really small, and it's only butt joints. However, each piece was hand cut, then squared on the shooting board, then chamered using my plane as a jointer. I put two coats of water lox and some wax to finish it off. So here is my brilliant first all hand tool project. It's just a hair over two inches tall.
> 
> ...


Very good. Sometimes when we are involved with a long tedious project, such as you are with the dovetails, we need to step back and just complete something. It breaks the tedium of doing the same thing time and time again.

Nice post. And I am sure your rhino feels right at home.


----------



## Radish (Apr 11, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *It's a start, first all hand tool project*
> 
> I know this is really, really small, and it's only butt joints. However, each piece was hand cut, then squared on the shooting board, then chamered using my plane as a jointer. I put two coats of water lox and some wax to finish it off. So here is my brilliant first all hand tool project. It's just a hair over two inches tall.
> 
> ...


He certainly looks happy in his new digs, Betsy!


----------



## SST (Nov 30, 2006)

Betsy said:


> *It's a start, first all hand tool project*
> 
> I know this is really, really small, and it's only butt joints. However, each piece was hand cut, then squared on the shooting board, then chamered using my plane as a jointer. I put two coats of water lox and some wax to finish it off. So here is my brilliant first all hand tool project. It's just a hair over two inches tall.
> 
> ...


Nice job. While I've been putzing with hand tools, making mostly shavings and sawdust, I've yet to do an entire project. You have encouraged me to give it a try. -SST


----------



## Woodshopfreak (Feb 26, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *It's a start, first all hand tool project*
> 
> I know this is really, really small, and it's only butt joints. However, each piece was hand cut, then squared on the shooting board, then chamered using my plane as a jointer. I put two coats of water lox and some wax to finish it off. So here is my brilliant first all hand tool project. It's just a hair over two inches tall.
> 
> ...


Great job. Hand tools can be a pain sometimes but for somethings they are really satisfiying.


----------



## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

*Rabbetted box*

I'm still experimenting with these hand tools. So far I've twiddled with dovetails, butt joints, and now rabbetted joints.

I've managed to learn to cut on a bench hook.



The idea of a bench hook to to be able to support your work piece against a fence and have a ledge to cut into - when you finish your cut the saw rests on the ledge and does not accidently fall onto the bench hitting something it should not. You don't need to clamp your work piece, the hand holding it against the fence is enough to keep it still-this allows you put more finese to the saw and takes less energy to do the cut.

By the way - its still a good idea to keep your fingers away from the saw. Even a hand saw cuts flesh (sorry for the poor picture quality - that hurt and I was shaking a bit..



Next onto the shooting board.





I cut my four pieces and used the shooting board to make the two sides and front and back the same lengths. It's amazing that you can feel just a very tiny variance between two pieces.



After laying out my pieces to decide where my groove should go for the bottom - I clamped the work piece in my homemade bench vise and used the small plow plane to cut an 1/8" groove.



Yep - the ply fits like a glove.



Now all 4 pieces are grooved.



Next I rabbett the two ends of the front and back.



This is what I end up with after all the cuts.



So here is the finished box.



Notice all the chamfers. That hides a lot of sins! The lid does not sit flat. I still need to do a bit of sanding.



This shows the bottom of the lid. Looks like a beaver got to it.



This is the bottom. You can see it's not perfect.



I will do a little hand sanding, flock the inside and put a finish on it. It did not turn out to bad. The planes have a learning curve that I'm still working on.


----------



## offseid (Jan 16, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *Rabbetted box*
> 
> I'm still experimenting with these hand tools. So far I've twiddled with dovetails, butt joints, and now rabbetted joints.
> 
> ...


That's great! Man, I gotta get me some of those specialty planes. The smallest chisel I have is 1/4" so I can't very well do a groove as narrow as that. I've actually thought about filing down and honing an allen wrench (I don't have a grinder) and just gluing that up inside a block of wood to use as a makeshift tiny chisel.

As for the rabbets - saw and chisel. Not an easy way to do it. I love the look of that rabbet plane - homemade?


----------



## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Rabbetted box*
> 
> I'm still experimenting with these hand tools. So far I've twiddled with dovetails, butt joints, and now rabbetted joints.
> 
> ...


Eric - I wish I could have made a plane that nice, but nope - its a Lee Valley purchase.


----------



## offseid (Jan 16, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *Rabbetted box*
> 
> I'm still experimenting with these hand tools. So far I've twiddled with dovetails, butt joints, and now rabbetted joints.
> 
> ...


Well, whenever you do get around to making one, I'll send you my address so you can pass that one along to me. ;^)


----------



## sbryan55 (Dec 8, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Rabbetted box*
> 
> I'm still experimenting with these hand tools. So far I've twiddled with dovetails, butt joints, and now rabbetted joints.
> 
> ...


Very nice, Betsy. You are improving markedly with each post. Are you going to put a finish on your box?


----------



## Radish (Apr 11, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Rabbetted box*
> 
> I'm still experimenting with these hand tools. So far I've twiddled with dovetails, butt joints, and now rabbetted joints.
> 
> ...


Got a nice box and some dandy tools, too. The two Veritas planes and the E.C. Emmerich rabbet plane, I recognize but I don't know that saw. Whacha got there, Betsy?


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Rabbetted box*
> 
> I'm still experimenting with these hand tools. So far I've twiddled with dovetails, butt joints, and now rabbetted joints.
> 
> ...


I'll keep that in mind Eric.

Doug - its a Japanese saw-- not sure if its the one with the R or the D. But it cuts on the pull stroke, Cuts like a knife through butter actually.

Scott - yes I plan to put a finish of some sort on after I get a little more cleaning up done on it.

I have to give myself props on this though - this all hand tool box actually looks better than my first all machine box. So there is progress being made.


----------



## GaryK (Jun 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Rabbetted box*
> 
> I'm still experimenting with these hand tools. So far I've twiddled with dovetails, butt joints, and now rabbetted joints.
> 
> ...


Boy, you are getting better by the day! Sorry about the boo boo.


----------



## schwingding (Dec 5, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Rabbetted box*
> 
> I'm still experimenting with these hand tools. So far I've twiddled with dovetails, butt joints, and now rabbetted joints.
> 
> ...


That Veritas plow plane makes me plenty envious!


----------



## johnjoiner (Sep 28, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Rabbetted box*
> 
> I'm still experimenting with these hand tools. So far I've twiddled with dovetails, butt joints, and now rabbetted joints.
> 
> ...


Ooh! You have the Veritas plow plane! I played with that for about 20 minutes at the woodworking show a few weeks ago. How do you like it? That can cut rabbets too, though not as wide as the rabbets you cut on your box lid.

Your fillister plane has a scoring blade on it, doesn't it? That's supposed to prevent tear-out like you got on the underside of your lid. On your next box you can try scoring a deep line with a knife or even saw a shallow kerf where the edge of the rabbet goes to avoid that tear-out when rabbeting end grain.

You're assembling a nice collection of hand tools. Nice job on the box!


----------



## davidtheboxmaker (Dec 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Rabbetted box*
> 
> I'm still experimenting with these hand tools. So far I've twiddled with dovetails, butt joints, and now rabbetted joints.
> 
> ...


You've got a nice collection of hand tools developing. Neat box.


----------



## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Rabbetted box*
> 
> I'm still experimenting with these hand tools. So far I've twiddled with dovetails, butt joints, and now rabbetted joints.
> 
> ...


John the plow plane is sweet! Comes ready to use out of the box. There's a learning curve on keeping it level - you wouldn't think so - but it's easy to tip it one way or the other. It may not be so bad on a larger work piece. The pieces I was working on was pretty small.

As for the scoring blade on the fillister plane - it does have one. The issue is making sure it's set correctly. I think the knife kerf is a good idea.

Thanks David. Boxes are a favorite - small but still lots to them.

As to the hand tool collection. Well, I look at in as an investment in my health. If only I could my flex plan to apply I'd be in great shape.


----------



## clieb91 (Aug 17, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Rabbetted box*
> 
> I'm still experimenting with these hand tools. So far I've twiddled with dovetails, butt joints, and now rabbetted joints.
> 
> ...


Betsy, The hand tool work is looking good. I should invest in some decent planes and use them as well. I do like reaching for the hand tools when I have a chance.

Thanks for posting your journey down this route, look forward to seeing more of it.

CtL


----------



## Blake (Oct 17, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Rabbetted box*
> 
> I'm still experimenting with these hand tools. So far I've twiddled with dovetails, butt joints, and now rabbetted joints.
> 
> ...


Excellent! Great to see some results. Nice job on the first all-hand tool box.


----------



## rikkor (Oct 17, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Rabbetted box*
> 
> I'm still experimenting with these hand tools. So far I've twiddled with dovetails, butt joints, and now rabbetted joints.
> 
> ...


Way to work the hand tools. This has been an encouraging series.


----------



## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Rabbetted box*
> 
> I'm still experimenting with these hand tools. So far I've twiddled with dovetails, butt joints, and now rabbetted joints.
> 
> ...


Thanks guys. I really do appreciate the encouragement. I'm putting a finish on this box now and will flock the inside then post my finished project. After sanding it a bit, it looks better.

Thanks again.


----------



## Ekim (Dec 10, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *Rabbetted box*
> 
> I'm still experimenting with these hand tools. So far I've twiddled with dovetails, butt joints, and now rabbetted joints.
> 
> ...


Betsy,
You are doing a great job with the hand tools. The bench hook you are using is for a western style push saw. As you saw it pushes the wood into the fence. The same way you are planing towards the fence. With a pull saw you would need to clamp the hook to the bench with the fence on the outside closer to you. That may be why you had to give the blood sacrifice to the tool gods! I am sure a Japanese style woodworker would be able to tell you better how it is done with a pull saw. I sometimes run the groove for the bottom in the board before I cut off the pieces. Keep it up!
Mike


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

*Precision cutting*

Well I'm putting a finish and flocking on my rabbett joint box. I decided tonight that I'd try to do some precision cutting. Just a small butt joint box. The project dimensions and idea comes from the book "Box by Box" put out by Popular Woodworking. This book has some good projects that challenge you to build skills. I find the directions and illustrations good, better than most. The wood is 1/4" Narra. It was already dimensioned to thickness (I purchased it in a pack from Woodcraft.) Narra kind of reminds me of mahogany - it cuts very easily. The things i learned on this project---

First - when ripping a board clamped in the face vise - it's better to have it lower in the vise than higher. The higher it is the more it will chatter and be hard to cut.





I rough cut my pieces to approximate sizes.



Then off to the shooting board to clean up the edges. I'm actually getting the feel for the shooting board.

I sized the two ends to the same size (the width and length) and then the width of the bottom to match the sides.



Then I cut the front and back to match each other and cut the bottoms length to match the length of the two ends and the bottom combined.



This is as far as I got tonight. I'm pretty happy with how the dry fit looks. It just amazes me that you can feel just the tinest difference between the pieces.


----------



## naperville (Jan 28, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *Precision cutting*
> 
> Well I'm putting a finish and flocking on my rabbett joint box. I decided tonight that I'd try to do some precision cutting. Just a small butt joint box. The project dimensions and idea comes from the book "Box by Box" put out by Popular Woodworking. This book has some good projects that challenge you to build skills. I find the directions and illustrations good, better than most. The wood is 1/4" Narra. It was already dimensioned to thickness (I purchased it in a pack from Woodcraft.) Narra kind of reminds me of mahogany - it cuts very easily. The things i learned on this project---
> 
> ...


Nice job Betsy! And in the pictures I see your fearless friend in the background watching over your progress.

Tom


----------



## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Precision cutting*
> 
> Well I'm putting a finish and flocking on my rabbett joint box. I decided tonight that I'd try to do some precision cutting. Just a small butt joint box. The project dimensions and idea comes from the book "Box by Box" put out by Popular Woodworking. This book has some good projects that challenge you to build skills. I find the directions and illustrations good, better than most. The wood is 1/4" Narra. It was already dimensioned to thickness (I purchased it in a pack from Woodcraft.) Narra kind of reminds me of mahogany - it cuts very easily. The things i learned on this project---
> 
> ...


That fearless friend was laying there whining for another cookie! She is in my shop, or rather the hall by my shop more now than ever. I think she likes the quite. The power shop has tools that make loud noises that scared her. She's a good girl though and keeps me company.


----------



## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

*Finished box - with finishing question for you*

Here is the completed box that I built using only hand tools. I finally have a lid that I actually think I did OK on. It took me a while to get it so that you could lift it off without picking up the whole box. But it lifts off smoothly now. I've already flocked the inside.

Here's the issue. I've decided I want to give this box to my best friend who has seen me through my recent illness (and previous ones as well). So that makes it a special box. I want to finish it right. I am not a good finisher - Water lox and wax and I call it done. I definitely like the building more than the finishing.

I'd like to know how you would finish this box. I am looking for a nice sheen - not to shiny but not a satin finish either.

Also, would you finish the underside of the lid as well - or just seal it?

Right now the box is sanded to 150 grit (I still have a few fuzzies on the bottom of the lid).







I'm really enjoying my hand tools and have really seen how they will enhance my woodworking projects. I know that I won't be a total hand tool gal though - the thought of doing anything larger than a box totally by hand is to daunting to think about. I really am looking forward to getting back out in my power shop.

Thanks in advance for your ideas.


----------



## MikeLingenfelter (Feb 19, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Finished box - with finishing question for you*
> 
> Here is the completed box that I built using only hand tools. I finally have a lid that I actually think I did OK on. It took me a while to get it so that you could lift it off without picking up the whole box. But it lifts off smoothly now. I've already flocked the inside.
> 
> ...


You have done something I've been wanting to do for a while, complete an entire project with only hand tools. Way to go on that accomplishment! I don't have much advise on finish. I've only done low and high sheens projects lately. A hand-rubbed oil finish is becoming my favorite finish. It's easy to apply and hard to mess up, but I would say it's a low sheen.


----------



## GaryK (Jun 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Finished box - with finishing question for you*
> 
> Here is the completed box that I built using only hand tools. I finally have a lid that I actually think I did OK on. It took me a while to get it so that you could lift it off without picking up the whole box. But it lifts off smoothly now. I've already flocked the inside.
> 
> ...


Pretty good. Now lets see if you can make one with a knife and fork!


----------



## naperville (Jan 28, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *Finished box - with finishing question for you*
> 
> Here is the completed box that I built using only hand tools. I finally have a lid that I actually think I did OK on. It took me a while to get it so that you could lift it off without picking up the whole box. But it lifts off smoothly now. I've already flocked the inside.
> 
> ...


Betsy,
You can't go wrong with tung oil. Sand it through 400 grit (with the grain). Apply the tung oil to coat all surfaces, wait about 5 minutes and buff clean with a lint free rag and let dry for 24 hours. Repeat this 2-3 times untill you have the sheen you want. Then wax as normal. Hope this helps.

Tom


----------



## teenagewoodworker (Jan 31, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *Finished box - with finishing question for you*
> 
> Here is the completed box that I built using only hand tools. I finally have a lid that I actually think I did OK on. It took me a while to get it so that you could lift it off without picking up the whole box. But it lifts off smoothly now. I've already flocked the inside.
> 
> ...


i think that tung oil would look great too. and by the way great job with the hand tools. it takes awhile but you have a better feeling when its done than with power tools. personally i love hand tools. keep up the great work.


----------



## Anthrax (Mar 24, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *Finished box - with finishing question for you*
> 
> Here is the completed box that I built using only hand tools. I finally have a lid that I actually think I did OK on. It took me a while to get it so that you could lift it off without picking up the whole box. But it lifts off smoothly now. I've already flocked the inside.
> 
> ...


Awesome


----------



## Anthrax (Mar 24, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *Finished box - with finishing question for you*
> 
> Here is the completed box that I built using only hand tools. I finally have a lid that I actually think I did OK on. It took me a while to get it so that you could lift it off without picking up the whole box. But it lifts off smoothly now. I've already flocked the inside.
> 
> ...


awesome to the max


----------



## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Finished box - with finishing question for you*
> 
> Here is the completed box that I built using only hand tools. I finally have a lid that I actually think I did OK on. It took me a while to get it so that you could lift it off without picking up the whole box. But it lifts off smoothly now. I've already flocked the inside.
> 
> ...


Thanks all. I'm going to try tung oil.


----------



## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

*Dovetails issue*

OK - I can't tell you how many "dovetails" I've tried to cut. Not getting to far I can tell you that. Making lots of chips though - so it's not all bad.

I'm obviously doing more than one thing wrong. I've got Frank Klaus's DVD on dovetails and as much as I like Frank, I really do, I'm missing something on the video. There are no close up shots to what he's doing so I'm not really following it well.

Do any of you know a good DVD to get to show some close ups and provides a bit more lecture about these things. I'd really like to at least cut one set before I retire.

Thanks a bunch.


----------



## tenontim (Feb 24, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *Dovetails issue*
> 
> OK - I can't tell you how many "dovetails" I've tried to cut. Not getting to far I can tell you that. Making lots of chips though - so it's not all bad.
> 
> ...


Betsy, get a Jim Kingshott video. He's got some good ones out. Can't remember where I bought the ones I have but you can Google his name and find a distributor. I believe all of his videos are on dvd now. Shop around for a good price.


----------



## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Dovetails issue*
> 
> OK - I can't tell you how many "dovetails" I've tried to cut. Not getting to far I can tell you that. Making lots of chips though - so it's not all bad.
> 
> ...


Thanks Tim. I've not heard of him yet. I'll give it a go.


----------



## MikeLingenfelter (Feb 19, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Dovetails issue*
> 
> OK - I can't tell you how many "dovetails" I've tried to cut. Not getting to far I can tell you that. Making lots of chips though - so it's not all bad.
> 
> ...


I have several of Rob Cosman's DVDs and I really like them especially the ones on Hand-cut dovetails. I haven't seen Jim Kingshott DVDs yet, I'll have to check those out.

You can get Rob's DVDs from his web site or through Lie-Nielsen.


----------



## MikeLingenfelter (Feb 19, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Dovetails issue*
> 
> OK - I can't tell you how many "dovetails" I've tried to cut. Not getting to far I can tell you that. Making lots of chips though - so it's not all bad.
> 
> ...


Looks like you can get Jim's DVD over at www.foxchapelpublishing.com.


----------



## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Dovetails issue*
> 
> OK - I can't tell you how many "dovetails" I've tried to cut. Not getting to far I can tell you that. Making lots of chips though - so it's not all bad.
> 
> ...


Thanks guys - I'm going to check them out.


----------



## mtcarver (Aug 31, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Dovetails issue*
> 
> OK - I can't tell you how many "dovetails" I've tried to cut. Not getting to far I can tell you that. Making lots of chips though - so it's not all bad.
> 
> ...


Roy Underhill of the "wood wright's shop on PBS"IS A GREAT SHOW TO LEARN FROM. he makes ever thing by hand


----------



## MikeLingenfelter (Feb 19, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Dovetails issue*
> 
> OK - I can't tell you how many "dovetails" I've tried to cut. Not getting to far I can tell you that. Making lots of chips though - so it's not all bad.
> 
> ...


Gotta love Roy, he's been on PBS longer than Norm!


----------



## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Dovetails issue*
> 
> OK - I can't tell you how many "dovetails" I've tried to cut. Not getting to far I can tell you that. Making lots of chips though - so it's not all bad.
> 
> ...


Isn't Roy the guy in Boston?


----------



## rikkor (Oct 17, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Dovetails issue*
> 
> OK - I can't tell you how many "dovetails" I've tried to cut. Not getting to far I can tell you that. Making lots of chips though - so it's not all bad.
> 
> ...


Roy's show is "The Woodwright".


----------



## GaryK (Jun 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Dovetails issue*
> 
> OK - I can't tell you how many "dovetails" I've tried to cut. Not getting to far I can tell you that. Making lots of chips though - so it's not all bad.
> 
> ...


Just keep plugging away at it.


----------



## kenn (Mar 19, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *Dovetails issue*
> 
> OK - I can't tell you how many "dovetails" I've tried to cut. Not getting to far I can tell you that. Making lots of chips though - so it's not all bad.
> 
> ...


I don't know about any videos but I wanted to share how I learned, from Frank Klaus's book. Practice just the cuts until you can saw right on the line like a tail cut, angled. Then make repetitive pin style cuts, straight down the face of the board but angled on the end grain. After you can work the saw well, then try to chisel them out and fit them. My first ones look terrible, but it really is a matter of practice. Eventually I made about 5 birdhouses with dovetailed corners, I'm sure I'm the only guy with dovetailed birdhouse. Let me know if there is anything I can do to help.


----------



## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Dovetails issue*
> 
> OK - I can't tell you how many "dovetails" I've tried to cut. Not getting to far I can tell you that. Making lots of chips though - so it's not all bad.
> 
> ...


Thanks Keen. I'm kind of going that route. Some of my problem has been not cutting the straightest line - so I'm practicing that and marking out the dovetails. I'll keep at it.

Thanks for your suggeston.


----------



## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

*Dovetails - I'm getting there --- still kind of ugly*

OK - please tell me these are right. I know they are ugly as sin-- I'll work on pretty later. But first I was upside down, then I was compound cutting then I was just making little tiny scraps that even I could not make a box out of.

I know I need sharper tools - I'm working on that to.

I cut the waste out of these with a coping saw and then "trimmed" with a chisel. I must say, even though I did a poor job - I like the coping saw much better than chiseling out the waste.

OK so here is my latest entry. *PLEASE* someone tell me these are at least the right geometry. I can't pull them apart-- I can slide them apart-- but can't pull apart.





Got a lot of practicing to do.


----------



## GMoney (Dec 27, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Dovetails - I'm getting there --- still kind of ugly*
> 
> OK - please tell me these are right. I know they are ugly as sin-- I'll work on pretty later. But first I was upside down, then I was compound cutting then I was just making little tiny scraps that even I could not make a box out of.
> 
> ...


They look right to me. Btw I think sin has you beat in the ugly dept. Most of us don't show the early attempts and they usually are not pretty. That's where repetition comes in for skill building.

You'll be amazed how much easier it is to use sharp tools. I recommend you bite the bullet so to speak and learn to sharpen or get a good machine. You'll like chisel work much better.


----------



## sbryan55 (Dec 8, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Dovetails - I'm getting there --- still kind of ugly*
> 
> OK - please tell me these are right. I know they are ugly as sin-- I'll work on pretty later. But first I was upside down, then I was compound cutting then I was just making little tiny scraps that even I could not make a box out of.
> 
> ...


Betsy they look just fine to me. You are making progress. It is slow but these are far better than your first post.

Practice, practice practice.


----------



## GaryK (Jun 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Dovetails - I'm getting there --- still kind of ugly*
> 
> OK - please tell me these are right. I know they are ugly as sin-- I'll work on pretty later. But first I was upside down, then I was compound cutting then I was just making little tiny scraps that even I could not make a box out of.
> 
> ...


Getting better every time you try again. You'll be a master pretty soon.

Try using a knife and straight edge to outline your cuts first.

And yes they are correct.


----------



## naperville (Jan 28, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *Dovetails - I'm getting there --- still kind of ugly*
> 
> OK - please tell me these are right. I know they are ugly as sin-- I'll work on pretty later. But first I was upside down, then I was compound cutting then I was just making little tiny scraps that even I could not make a box out of.
> 
> ...


Betsy,
It is a great start and I think you should be proud. Some people never even finish their first attempt, rather giving up or only using router templates. I think that your biggest limitation right now is your tools. Work on getting them sharper so they cut cleaner and more accurately. It looks like you did a good layout job. 
Take the knowledge you learned from this and go onto the next set. Put this one away and refer to it after the next one is done. You will see a marked improvemnet, I guarantee it! For variations on your layout, try this link… http://www.blocklayer.com/Woodjoints/DovetailEng.aspx

Your doing fine…

Tom


----------



## motthunter (Dec 31, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Dovetails - I'm getting there --- still kind of ugly*
> 
> OK - please tell me these are right. I know they are ugly as sin-- I'll work on pretty later. But first I was upside down, then I was compound cutting then I was just making little tiny scraps that even I could not make a box out of.
> 
> ...


hand cut = tons of practice.

Good luck on your next attempt.


----------



## che (May 18, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Dovetails - I'm getting there --- still kind of ugly*
> 
> OK - please tell me these are right. I know they are ugly as sin-- I'll work on pretty later. But first I was upside down, then I was compound cutting then I was just making little tiny scraps that even I could not make a box out of.
> 
> ...


Well the geometry is right. You have pins and tails. I don't know what tools your using but I can honestly tell you that a properly tuned saw is a must. I highly recommend Rob Cosman's DVD series. There is a bit of Lie-Nielsen advertising, but they put out the DVD so I can't fault them too much for that. (and there saw is great)

Get a copy of the current Woodworking magazine; it is all about hand sawing. Also, read the woodworking magazine blog. Christopher Schwarz has 's lots of great info there as well. http://www.woodworking-magazine.com/index.asp

I'm not anywhere close to a dovetail master but when I fist got my saw I marked straight lines every 1/4" or so. I cut half of them on the left and half of them on the right. There is no point trying to cut a joint until you can cut a straight line. I then cut a bunch of "5 minute dovetails". One tail and two half pins. The advantage is that there is a lot less chopping so most of your time is spent cutting.

Tools for working wood has some coping saw blades that are very thin and will slide down the kerf left by most dovetail saws. It's a little scary how much better they work than the big box blades.

Most important… Keep at it.


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## woodtimes (Jun 14, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Dovetails - I'm getting there --- still kind of ugly*
> 
> OK - please tell me these are right. I know they are ugly as sin-- I'll work on pretty later. But first I was upside down, then I was compound cutting then I was just making little tiny scraps that even I could not make a box out of.
> 
> ...


Do this everyday for 30 days and you'll be an old pro at this. Good work so far.


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Dovetails - I'm getting there --- still kind of ugly*
> 
> OK - please tell me these are right. I know they are ugly as sin-- I'll work on pretty later. But first I was upside down, then I was compound cutting then I was just making little tiny scraps that even I could not make a box out of.
> 
> ...


Whew! Thanks guys. I'm trying hard. The sharp tools are a problem. That's what I'm working on now. Every time I hit the sharpening station I see where I'm missing the boat. But that's getting better to. The Kelly Mehler class I'm taking next month should help in this department also.

I'm going to have to look into these links and that coping saw blade. The one I have is pretty large.

Thanks again guys. Will keep you posted!


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## teenagewoodworker (Jan 31, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *Dovetails - I'm getting there --- still kind of ugly*
> 
> OK - please tell me these are right. I know they are ugly as sin-- I'll work on pretty later. But first I was upside down, then I was compound cutting then I was just making little tiny scraps that even I could not make a box out of.
> 
> ...


ya everything looks right. you improve so much every time that you post your results. i wouldn't doubt it if in another couple of tries your getting them almost flawless. keep up the great work!


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## Woodshopfreak (Feb 26, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *Dovetails - I'm getting there --- still kind of ugly*
> 
> OK - please tell me these are right. I know they are ugly as sin-- I'll work on pretty later. But first I was upside down, then I was compound cutting then I was just making little tiny scraps that even I could not make a box out of.
> 
> ...


Looking good. I see that your tails are a little short which would mean that you didn't layout the lines perfectly, or that you didn't cut to the line. If you didn't put the lines in right the first time it is hard to make them look good. I think that if you arn't useing a scribe to get one or make one like the project that I have posted in my projects. it was really simple to make and is very effective. I myself have the same problems of makeing my tools sharp enough and to make perfect dovetails, but I have amost lost hope, you are very determined, Practice makes perfect right.  Good luck, and have fun.


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## fredf (Mar 29, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *Dovetails - I'm getting there --- still kind of ugly*
> 
> OK - please tell me these are right. I know they are ugly as sin-- I'll work on pretty later. But first I was upside down, then I was compound cutting then I was just making little tiny scraps that even I could not make a box out of.
> 
> ...


Betsy

If you haven't already seen Douglas Bordner's blog of the Scary Sharp system, check this out

http://lumberjocks.com/jocks/Radish/blog/2588


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Dovetails - I'm getting there --- still kind of ugly*
> 
> OK - please tell me these are right. I know they are ugly as sin-- I'll work on pretty later. But first I was upside down, then I was compound cutting then I was just making little tiny scraps that even I could not make a box out of.
> 
> ...


Thanks guys. I really appreciate the encouragement. Fred - I've seen Doug's blog. It's quite good. I have the veritas jig that he describes and it works great. I've tried the sandpaper and I've not been able to get far with it. Right now I'm trying to use waterstones as that is what will be taught at the woodworking class I'm taking in May. All in all though - I really need to learn to sharpen with one method or another or I'll forever be having fuzzy, ugly dovetails. But I'm pretty persistent - I'll keep at it.


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## Dorje (Jun 17, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Dovetails - I'm getting there --- still kind of ugly*
> 
> OK - please tell me these are right. I know they are ugly as sin-- I'll work on pretty later. But first I was upside down, then I was compound cutting then I was just making little tiny scraps that even I could not make a box out of.
> 
> ...


Betsy - so far, so good! Geometry is right on the money -

I second Che's idea of "the "5-minute dovetail... not quite as overwhelming when cutting one tail and two half pins at a time, and you can do one after the other for lots of practice if you wish. Or even cutting a three tail joint may allow more focus on getting the joint to come together even closer…

Keep it up!

There's a little video link on the FWW page that's linked above too…


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

*Dovetails - not quite so ugly - but still not so good*

Still trying to get the hang of these things. The joint is deceptively hard to do, but I'm determined to get them.

My biggest problem is still my tools. I'm really going to have to concentrate on sharpening them. So before I get to frustrated with the dovetails I'm going to start working on sharpening a bit more aggressively. But at least I seem to be getting the geometry and marking down. Will be practicing cutting straight lines as well.







Thanks for your encouragement and advise along the way.


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## GaryK (Jun 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Dovetails - not quite so ugly - but still not so good*
> 
> Still trying to get the hang of these things. The joint is deceptively hard to do, but I'm determined to get them.
> 
> ...


Looks like you're getting closer.


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## sbryan55 (Dec 8, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Dovetails - not quite so ugly - but still not so good*
> 
> Still trying to get the hang of these things. The joint is deceptively hard to do, but I'm determined to get them.
> 
> ...


Betsy,

You are improving. You certainly have been an inspiration to me, and I am sure others as well, who are pursuing this too. Struggling with mastering this joinery technique will only make you a stronger woodworker in the long run. 

Keep up the practice. I really appreciate these posts.


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## teenagewoodworker (Jan 31, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *Dovetails - not quite so ugly - but still not so good*
> 
> Still trying to get the hang of these things. The joint is deceptively hard to do, but I'm determined to get them.
> 
> ...


wow you've been making a ton of progress. one hint that i could offer (i don't know if you've been doing this already) is not to make then a slip in fit. if you need to tap it in it is usually a much better fit and you don't have those little gaps on the side from removing too much waste. but again great job, keep up the good work, and i can't wait until the next post!


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Dovetails - not quite so ugly - but still not so good*
> 
> Still trying to get the hang of these things. The joint is deceptively hard to do, but I'm determined to get them.
> 
> ...


Thanks guys. I'm getting there. Patience and practice, patience and practice.


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## SteveKorz (Mar 25, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *Dovetails - not quite so ugly - but still not so good*
> 
> Still trying to get the hang of these things. The joint is deceptively hard to do, but I'm determined to get them.
> 
> ...


I'm still practicing too, Betsy. About a year ago, I took a handcut dovetail class by David Marks. One of the things that he did that I really like was to clamp a guide block on the tails piece. For example, in your pic above, on the top board that is horizontal, he would clamp a jointed board with a square edge along your scribe line for the entire width of the tails board. Then the backs of his chisels would ride that guide board and ensure a square cut on the tails board. After he cut the tails, then he would use an exacto knife to mark the pins. He said he never used a pencil or pen, due to the with of the lead. Then he would take a little off at a time and make'em fit. He made it look so easy, and I'm STILL practicing!!!...


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Dovetails - not quite so ugly - but still not so good*
> 
> Still trying to get the hang of these things. The joint is deceptively hard to do, but I'm determined to get them.
> 
> ...


Thanks Steve. The block idea is a good one. This is definitely a skill that takes practice. I'm going to keep going until I get it though. I'm trying to do more by hand just because of the noise factor and just the pure joy of it. I'll never be a complete hand tool gal, but I think the hand tools adds a lot that you cannot accomplish with a machine.


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

*Dovetails - Fit First Time!*

OK - I know these are still not great-- but they fit the first time with NO paring. Still not the prettiest things you've ever seen - but I'm getting there.

The difference I think is I've started using a coping saw to cut out the waste and instead of chopping out the remainder with the business end away from me-- I'm chopping with the board sideways on the bench so that I can tell if the chisel is vertical or not.

My chisels are still a long way from sharp enough so I really need to keep working on that.

But long and short-- *THEY FIT!*





You can see from the top view that I still have a long ways to go getting the line straight--but still I'm getting there.

Thanks for looking.


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## teenagewoodworker (Jan 31, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *Dovetails - Fit First Time!*
> 
> OK - I know these are still not great-- but they fit the first time with NO paring. Still not the prettiest things you've ever seen - but I'm getting there.
> 
> ...


wow those look great. they look just the same as the ones i did on my podcast. you've made so much improvement since that first entry and i feel that within the next couple of tries you'll have exactly what you are looking for.


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## ropedog (Mar 26, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *Dovetails - Fit First Time!*
> 
> OK - I know these are still not great-- but they fit the first time with NO paring. Still not the prettiest things you've ever seen - but I'm getting there.
> 
> ...


nice betsy,lookin good.


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## sbryan55 (Dec 8, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Dovetails - Fit First Time!*
> 
> OK - I know these are still not great-- but they fit the first time with NO paring. Still not the prettiest things you've ever seen - but I'm getting there.
> 
> ...


Betsy,

I am proud of you. This is looking great. I hope that you saved the first dovetail set you cut just so you could make a comparison.

You are truly an inspiration. If I could get caught up on the posts here I would run out in the shop and start cutting some too.

At the rate you are going Kelly Mehler will be asking you to teach the class this summer.


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Dovetails - Fit First Time!*
> 
> OK - I know these are still not great-- but they fit the first time with NO paring. Still not the prettiest things you've ever seen - but I'm getting there.
> 
> ...


Thanks guys. I'm really happy with my progress.

I think Kelly might be safe--- but I still have 6 weeks or so to practice!

Thanks for the encouragement!


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## SteveKorz (Mar 25, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *Dovetails - Fit First Time!*
> 
> OK - I know these are still not great-- but they fit the first time with NO paring. Still not the prettiest things you've ever seen - but I'm getting there.
> 
> ...


Dovetails are tough, I'm still working on mine, too, Betsy. Hang in there…

(By the way, they are looking progressively better and better!)


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Dovetails - Fit First Time!*
> 
> OK - I know these are still not great-- but they fit the first time with NO paring. Still not the prettiest things you've ever seen - but I'm getting there.
> 
> ...


Thanks Steve--things are starting to click for me now--finally figuring it out and am starting to see the difference.


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## GaryK (Jun 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Dovetails - Fit First Time!*
> 
> OK - I know these are still not great-- but they fit the first time with NO paring. Still not the prettiest things you've ever seen - but I'm getting there.
> 
> ...


Getting better and better all the time, Betsy.

Is you health back up to snuff yet?


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Dovetails - Fit First Time!*
> 
> OK - I know these are still not great-- but they fit the first time with NO paring. Still not the prettiest things you've ever seen - but I'm getting there.
> 
> ...


Thanks Gary. My health is getting better. My one concern now is how long I can avoid surgery - because that will really set me back.


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## expara (Apr 13, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *Dovetails - Fit First Time!*
> 
> OK - I know these are still not great-- but they fit the first time with NO paring. Still not the prettiest things you've ever seen - but I'm getting there.
> 
> ...


Betsy,
This is the signature joint of a crafts person and you've executed it well. Though I'm not the best dovetailer, I was introduced to an exercise years ago by Gary Rogowski who calls it "the 3 minute dovetail". It's simply a warm-up exercise before you begin your day in the shop where you gather a few pieces of waste, square them up and thickness them about 3-4" wide by 4/4, grab a knife and mark your half pins on the end and a center pin (actually, I start with tails) and just begin the process without too much concern for accuracy. After doing this for a few weeks you'll be amazed at the improvement in your accuracy. Consider it a sort of Zen exercise. I still do it on those occasions when I'm feeling rusty and I need to find my dovetail "center". Sam Maloof always said "Just keep doing what you're doing" 
Regards,
David


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Dovetails - Fit First Time!*
> 
> OK - I know these are still not great-- but they fit the first time with NO paring. Still not the prettiest things you've ever seen - but I'm getting there.
> 
> ...


Thanks David-I saw a spot on Finewoodworking about a 5 minute dovetail. It sounds like a good idea.


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

*Sharpening with questions, of course*

My woeful dovetails, although getting better, sure could use some help from sharper tools. So that's what I have been working on late last night and tonight. I have found that I like the diamond stone to get my backs flat - it goes faster than a waterstone. But once I get a good scratch pattern on the diamond stone that I can move on to the waterstone with more success. I get my 1/2 and 1/4 chisels not so much sharp-- but sharper than they were. I "manned up" as they say and cut the hair on my arm-- worked pretty well.

Here are two questions that I've not found answers for.

1) When I put my 1000 grit Norton waterstone into the water it bubbles up





None of the other stones do this. Any idea what the reason is for the bubles (tiny stone farts maybe 

Back to the diamond stones--after you use them - and I use water as lubricant. Do you wipe them off and let them drip dry or do run a blow dryer over them to push it along.

Noooo back to the waterstones. When you take them out of the water - how do you store them so that they will dry out evenly.

Last questions-- am I getting closer to sharp if I can get curls like these on oak endgrain>



Thanks for your help.


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## offseid (Jan 16, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *Sharpening with questions, of course*
> 
> My woeful dovetails, although getting better, sure could use some help from sharper tools. So that's what I have been working on late last night and tonight. I have found that I like the diamond stone to get my backs flat - it goes faster than a waterstone. But once I get a good scratch pattern on the diamond stone that I can move on to the waterstone with more success. I get my 1/2 and 1/4 chisels not so much sharp-- but sharper than they were. I "manned up" as they say and cut the hair on my arm-- worked pretty well.
> 
> ...


Waterstones are supposed to bubble up when you submerge them in water. In fact, you should leave the stones in the water until the bubbling has stopped, and then start sharpening. That means that the stone is saturated and will now work properly.

As for storing them, I don't think there's a right way or wrong way to let them dry. I usually keep mine in their tupperware containers with the lids slightly open to let them dry gradually.

On the flip side, if you plan on doing a lot of sharpening, it does not hurt the stones in the slightest to just store them in the water. I know several people who do this. That's why I keep mine in two tupperware containers that are almost perfect waterstone sized. My experience, though, is that if they're in there too long, they get a bit slimy (algae, maybe? maybe it's my water), so if I think it will be a while before my next sharpening session, I dry them out. If I expect to do more in the next week or two, I'll leave them in to soak (after changing the water).

P.S. You can see a couple pics of my setup over on my blog.


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Sharpening with questions, of course*
> 
> My woeful dovetails, although getting better, sure could use some help from sharper tools. So that's what I have been working on late last night and tonight. I have found that I like the diamond stone to get my backs flat - it goes faster than a waterstone. But once I get a good scratch pattern on the diamond stone that I can move on to the waterstone with more success. I get my 1/2 and 1/4 chisels not so much sharp-- but sharper than they were. I "manned up" as they say and cut the hair on my arm-- worked pretty well.
> 
> ...


Looks like you've got a good station going there. I left my stones in the water for a few day and they got a bit manky sooo I stopped dong thing. I wonder if it would make any difference if you used distilled water.

I'm glad the bubble thing is expected. The first time I saw I though Snap Crackle and Pop had come for a visit!

Well - gotta get ready for work.

Thanks for your input.


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## grumpycarp (Feb 23, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *Sharpening with questions, of course*
> 
> My woeful dovetails, although getting better, sure could use some help from sharper tools. So that's what I have been working on late last night and tonight. I have found that I like the diamond stone to get my backs flat - it goes faster than a waterstone. But once I get a good scratch pattern on the diamond stone that I can move on to the waterstone with more success. I get my 1/2 and 1/4 chisels not so much sharp-- but sharper than they were. I "manned up" as they say and cut the hair on my arm-- worked pretty well.
> 
> ...


the lower grit stones, like a 1000 are more porous so obviously they have more voids in them to trap (and release) air. I store my lower grit King (Japanese) stones in rubbermaid lidded containers so that they're always ready. Add a couple of drops of bleach to the water to mitigate the mung in the water and you're good to go. Norton says not to store their stones in water when not in use so I don't do that to the set I have.

As a side note, when sharpening narrow chisels or other narrow blades, router plane, etc., I "drag" the tool cutting edge facing me, rather than push it across the stone to mitigate gouging the stone.


----------



## offseid (Jan 16, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *Sharpening with questions, of course*
> 
> My woeful dovetails, although getting better, sure could use some help from sharper tools. So that's what I have been working on late last night and tonight. I have found that I like the diamond stone to get my backs flat - it goes faster than a waterstone. But once I get a good scratch pattern on the diamond stone that I can move on to the waterstone with more success. I get my 1/2 and 1/4 chisels not so much sharp-- but sharper than they were. I "manned up" as they say and cut the hair on my arm-- worked pretty well.
> 
> ...


grumpycarp: Thanks for the tip about bleach - I'll have to try that!


----------



## Lakey (Jan 27, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *Sharpening with questions, of course*
> 
> My woeful dovetails, although getting better, sure could use some help from sharper tools. So that's what I have been working on late last night and tonight. I have found that I like the diamond stone to get my backs flat - it goes faster than a waterstone. But once I get a good scratch pattern on the diamond stone that I can move on to the waterstone with more success. I get my 1/2 and 1/4 chisels not so much sharp-- but sharper than they were. I "manned up" as they say and cut the hair on my arm-- worked pretty well.
> 
> ...


Diamond stones you can just wash off and let them dry on their own. They don't need help. Getting curls in end grain is good!


----------



## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Sharpening with questions, of course*
> 
> My woeful dovetails, although getting better, sure could use some help from sharper tools. So that's what I have been working on late last night and tonight. I have found that I like the diamond stone to get my backs flat - it goes faster than a waterstone. But once I get a good scratch pattern on the diamond stone that I can move on to the waterstone with more success. I get my 1/2 and 1/4 chisels not so much sharp-- but sharper than they were. I "manned up" as they say and cut the hair on my arm-- worked pretty well.
> 
> ...


Grumpy-- I had forgotten that Norton tells you not to store the stones in water when not in use. Thanks for the reminder.


----------



## johnjoiner (Sep 28, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Sharpening with questions, of course*
> 
> My woeful dovetails, although getting better, sure could use some help from sharper tools. So that's what I have been working on late last night and tonight. I have found that I like the diamond stone to get my backs flat - it goes faster than a waterstone. But once I get a good scratch pattern on the diamond stone that I can move on to the waterstone with more success. I get my 1/2 and 1/4 chisels not so much sharp-- but sharper than they were. I "manned up" as they say and cut the hair on my arm-- worked pretty well.
> 
> ...


I have the Norton combo stones, and I store them in water, in a closed tupperware container. I add a splash of vinegar to the water to keep it from sliming up. I was told to do that by someone along the way, and it's worked well. I've had these stones for at least a couple years now.

Paring end grain and shaving means it's getting pretty sharp.


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## wooddon (Jul 11, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Sharpening with questions, of course*
> 
> My woeful dovetails, although getting better, sure could use some help from sharper tools. So that's what I have been working on late last night and tonight. I have found that I like the diamond stone to get my backs flat - it goes faster than a waterstone. But once I get a good scratch pattern on the diamond stone that I can move on to the waterstone with more success. I get my 1/2 and 1/4 chisels not so much sharp-- but sharper than they were. I "manned up" as they say and cut the hair on my arm-- worked pretty well.
> 
> ...


My water stones have been in water for 10 years in tupperware container. I change the water every 6 months(distilled and a tsp of bleach). Have had no problems. They are 800 & 1200 stones.


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Sharpening with questions, of course*
> 
> My woeful dovetails, although getting better, sure could use some help from sharper tools. So that's what I have been working on late last night and tonight. I have found that I like the diamond stone to get my backs flat - it goes faster than a waterstone. But once I get a good scratch pattern on the diamond stone that I can move on to the waterstone with more success. I get my 1/2 and 1/4 chisels not so much sharp-- but sharper than they were. I "manned up" as they say and cut the hair on my arm-- worked pretty well.
> 
> ...


Don--I'm assuming you clean off the slurry before you put both stones in the same water??? Your waterstones and Bret Farve have a lot in common - longevity!

Thanks for the help guys!


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## Woodhacker (Mar 16, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *Sharpening with questions, of course*
> 
> My woeful dovetails, although getting better, sure could use some help from sharper tools. So that's what I have been working on late last night and tonight. I have found that I like the diamond stone to get my backs flat - it goes faster than a waterstone. But once I get a good scratch pattern on the diamond stone that I can move on to the waterstone with more success. I get my 1/2 and 1/4 chisels not so much sharp-- but sharper than they were. I "manned up" as they say and cut the hair on my arm-- worked pretty well.
> 
> ...


I noticed a little mildew on my norton 1000/4000 combination after having it kept under water for a few weeks. However, a couple years ago a guy at Woodcraft told me about trying bleach and like other posts here, I've not had any trouble keeping them clean while under water since then. Now, I always add a few drops of bleach whenever I change the water.


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Sharpening with questions, of course*
> 
> My woeful dovetails, although getting better, sure could use some help from sharper tools. So that's what I have been working on late last night and tonight. I have found that I like the diamond stone to get my backs flat - it goes faster than a waterstone. But once I get a good scratch pattern on the diamond stone that I can move on to the waterstone with more success. I get my 1/2 and 1/4 chisels not so much sharp-- but sharper than they were. I "manned up" as they say and cut the hair on my arm-- worked pretty well.
> 
> ...


I'm trying the bleach idea. Sounds like it works.


----------



## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

*Yet more questions about hand cut dovetails and fret saws*

I've been using a coping saw to cut out the waste-- but found that it was difficult to use. So I got a fret saw and installed a spiral blade that should work well.

This is the saw I bought.


Now would someone explain how the tensioning is supposed to work. I've installed my blade and its quite taught in the frame. You can pluck it and it "sings" the same note as I would be happy with on the scroll saw. But when I cut with it the blade flexes at least 1/2". I'm pretty sure that's not right. So how do you adjust the tension? I've tried pushing the frame tighter-- to no avail. I've fiddled with the wing nut on top-- same.

Ok - now onto the dovetails issue.

I've started doing my final chopping with the board situated so that I can look straight onto the chisel and can tell if the chisel is vertical.

This picture shows the chisel-but the board blends into my workbench.



Now when you chop down on the board to break away the waste do you move your chisel to the right or the left? Moving to the right seems like it makes a divet in the bottom of the piece-moving to the left seems to break the edge so it's not crisp.

Seems to me that the divet in the bottom would be the choice-but wanted to put it out there for your opinions.

I am getting better with the dovetails - here is my latest attempt.

My tail board.



My pin board



Put together - side view



top view



Now - how tight is to tight? I put these together with light taps of my hammer. I'm wondering if this were a real project and I fitted the joint in a dry run - then take it apart to glue that the fact that I compressed the wood the first time it would not fit as well the second time around. But if you don't test fit before you glue you could end up without a good fit.

Thanks for your help.


----------



## Woodhacker (Mar 16, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *Yet more questions about hand cut dovetails and fret saws*
> 
> I've been using a coping saw to cut out the waste-- but found that it was difficult to use. So I got a fret saw and installed a spiral blade that should work well.
> 
> ...


Betsy, keep practicing, you're on the right track. I'm no expert, but I can give you some things to think about from my experiences.

I bought this same fret saw you're using back in high school…(...a long long time ago). I now use this the same way you're using it…to cut out dovetail waist. You may have better luck using a non-spiral blade for a couple reasons. The spiral extends to the ends of the blade. As you tighten them you can actually compress the spiral making the clamping less stable, plus it seems to me there's less surface area (due to the spiral) for the saw to clamp on to… to hold them tightly. As you're cutting the blade can slide out a little giving it a lot of flex. Another reason I don't use them is that they're slightly wider than the kerf on my dovetail saw. You may have better luck with a thin standard blade.

Regarding tension…I think the design of these saws contribute to not being able to get the blade real tight. Even with straight blades you'll have some flex. I've never been able to completely eliminate it. As I approach the end of the cut, I usually slow way down to make sure I don't go too far on one side or the other.

On you're chopping with a chisel to clean out the last part of the waste: You'll find different theories, one says angle the blade slightly into the piece so you create the divot you mention. Others say cut straight down, you can pare out a divot later if you're inclined to do so. I would definitely not angle your chisel toward the end of the piece. There's too much risk of denting the joint seam…which will be especially noticeable on the outer side of the piece after assembly. Plus that wouldnt' really serve any purpose because you'd have a lot of clean up paring to do afterward.

What kind of saw are you using to actually cut the dovetails and pins? That can make a world of difference too. Even though it was quite an investment, I purchased a Lie-Nielsen a few years ago and couldn't believe how straight and true they track during the cut.

It also looks like you could make your tail and pin cuts a little deeper for the stock you're using…ideally I like both the pins and tails to extrude about 1/32 inch beyond the joint…that way if you ever dent the very edge of one it will sand off later. Plus it's a lot eaier to sand the pins tails than sand the entire piece, if the pins/tails aren't long enough.

Rob Cosman has some excellent videos on hand cut dovetails if you ever get a chance to see them, I recommend them. Well, as I stated early on here…I no expert at all and I'd be interested to see what other say about your dovetail joinery too. I have two projects posted on this site you might take a look at.

http://lumberjocks.com/projects/6954 , and 
http://lumberjocks.com/projects/6875

Good luck with your progress.


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## Woodhacker (Mar 16, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *Yet more questions about hand cut dovetails and fret saws*
> 
> I've been using a coping saw to cut out the waste-- but found that it was difficult to use. So I got a fret saw and installed a spiral blade that should work well.
> 
> ...


Betsy, one other comment, as you strike your chisel to cut out the remaining waste, make sure your "blow" is exactly straight down on the chisel end. Avoid glancing blows at an angle, because that can ruin the preciseness. If the butt end of the chisel moves horizontally at all when you strike it, you can bet the cutting end has moved some slightly too.


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## GaryK (Jun 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Yet more questions about hand cut dovetails and fret saws*
> 
> I've been using a coping saw to cut out the waste-- but found that it was difficult to use. So I got a fret saw and installed a spiral blade that should work well.
> 
> ...


You are getting a lot better Betsy. This is your best so far.


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## johnjoiner (Sep 28, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Yet more questions about hand cut dovetails and fret saws*
> 
> I've been using a coping saw to cut out the waste-- but found that it was difficult to use. So I got a fret saw and installed a spiral blade that should work well.
> 
> ...


Hi Betsy.

The way I was taught to cut out that waste is to not move the chisel either way. I first push down just with light hand-strength so that I don't make a dent across the marking line. Then come in from the end of the board and pare out a little sliver. This establishes the smooth edge that will be visible. Now chop down lightly from the top as in your picture, and pare out a larger sliver. Wash rinse, and repeat. The main thing is to just be careful to not bruise the marked line that will be visible in the finished joint. Yours are looking good so you must already be watching that closely.


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## MikeLingenfelter (Feb 19, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Yet more questions about hand cut dovetails and fret saws*
> 
> I've been using a coping saw to cut out the waste-- but found that it was difficult to use. So I got a fret saw and installed a spiral blade that should work well.
> 
> ...


Betsy,

You are making some real progress with your hand tool skills. I have the same fret saw and with the very thin blades you will never eliminate the flex in the blade. I use a "flat" blade and have good results with it. If you see a lot of flex you need to let up on the pressure. You really don't need much pressure to make the saw cut. Extra pressure really doesn't help it cut faster and it can cause you not to cut straight.

With your chisel work, you seem to be cutting past your gauge line. When you are removing that last little bit wood, you need to do it in a few passes. Taking one big chop can cause your chisel to be pushed back across your gauge line. Try taking a few smaller chops and see if that helps.


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Yet more questions about hand cut dovetails and fret saws*
> 
> I've been using a coping saw to cut out the waste-- but found that it was difficult to use. So I got a fret saw and installed a spiral blade that should work well.
> 
> ...


Martin thanks for the insight on the fret saw. Mike also suggested using a different blade - so tomorrow I'll try that. I've got the Cosman DVDs on order, hopefully will get them this weekend.

Mike - about the chisel work-- I thought that you were supposed to put your chisel into the gauge line to start your chopping. Are you saying should chop from the middle back and then end with a slicing type cut to clean up the bottom of the socket?

John - are you describing making a knife wall such as you would do to hand cut a dado?

Gary --- better watch out--pretty soon I'll be giving you a run for the money when it comes to this woodworking jig!

Oh and Martin - I've been using a crown dovetail saw. Not sure I like the single barrell type handle. I've ordered the Leinelson open handled saw and hope that will feel better in my hand. (For the price - it had better!)

Thanks again guys. I'm going to master these things yet!


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## MikeLingenfelter (Feb 19, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Yet more questions about hand cut dovetails and fret saws*
> 
> I've been using a coping saw to cut out the waste-- but found that it was difficult to use. So I got a fret saw and installed a spiral blade that should work well.
> 
> ...


That is correct. If you go right to the gauge without taking more of that waste away, what seems like a small amount of wood can push your chisel back past the gauge line. The more wasted you try to take in one chop increases the compression on the chisel against the wood. It will even cause your chisel to dive in, which isn't a bad thing, if it's only a little. The last chop should be a fine one.

Keep up the good work, you are getting better each time you post.


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## che (May 18, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Yet more questions about hand cut dovetails and fret saws*
> 
> I've been using a coping saw to cut out the waste-- but found that it was difficult to use. So I got a fret saw and installed a spiral blade that should work well.
> 
> ...


Betsy. I think you'll like the pistol handle a lot better than the round handle. I predict a huge jump in the accuracy of your cuts with the new saw. Of course if you don't like it you can sell it on e-bay for what you paid for it. (if not more)

It's hard to tell from the photos but it looks like you have too much set on your current saw. One or two swipes per side on a coarse stone should help things. Less set will help the saw cut straight on its own and will produce a smoother cut.

Your right about the test fitting Rob Cosman doesn't test fit the joint. Glue and go.

In photo 2 you want to move the handle of the chisel to the right to clear the waste. Chisel half way, flip and complete the chiseling.

One last tip. Use the largest chisel that you can. it is much easier to keep the line straight with a 3/4" chisel than a 1/4" one.


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## johnjoiner (Sep 28, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Yet more questions about hand cut dovetails and fret saws*
> 
> I've been using a coping saw to cut out the waste-- but found that it was difficult to use. So I got a fret saw and installed a spiral blade that should work well.
> 
> ...


Hi Betsy.

"are you describing making a knife wall such as you would do to hand cut a dado?"

Yes, but with your chisel. I think Mike is suggesting a different method where you don't actually pare (not chop) down on your knife line until you've removed all but a shaving or two of the waste. Either way will get you there. There are lots of ways to skin these cats. ... Not that I like to skin cats or anything. ;-)

I have that same Crown saw. I also don't like the barrel type handles, which is why I don't care for the Japanese saws much. I think the ergonomics of those handles are bad the way you have to have your hand twisted forward and down when holding them.

On an unrelated note, I got the LV plow plane like you have and am about to try it out for the first time. I need to use it to make a small frame and panel.

Keep up the good work and even better attitude.


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## Thuan (Dec 12, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Yet more questions about hand cut dovetails and fret saws*
> 
> I've been using a coping saw to cut out the waste-- but found that it was difficult to use. So I got a fret saw and installed a spiral blade that should work well.
> 
> ...


This video simplifies things quite a bit


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## teenagewoodworker (Jan 31, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *Yet more questions about hand cut dovetails and fret saws*
> 
> I've been using a coping saw to cut out the waste-- but found that it was difficult to use. So I got a fret saw and installed a spiral blade that should work well.
> 
> ...


well i don't know much about the saw but for the dovetails if they are tight when you put them in and you have to wiggle them to get them out you will be compressing the wood. I heard Somewhere thought that the compressed wood will swell when the glue is on it which is the same idea behind biscuits and the newer dominoes. you might want to check on that first though as I'm not sure if its true.

and by the way where did you get the fret saw. I think that is would be easier when making guide templates for inlays to use that than a coping saw.


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Yet more questions about hand cut dovetails and fret saws*
> 
> I've been using a coping saw to cut out the waste-- but found that it was difficult to use. So I got a fret saw and installed a spiral blade that should work well.
> 
> ...


Thanks guys.

TAW--I got the saw at Woodcraft - about $23.00. It takes pinless scroll saw blades.

Thuan - thanks for the video!


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

*Sharpening*

I've decided that if I'm going to do a dovetail project using hard woods-- I had better get my tools sharp. My understanding is that the first thing to do is to get the chisel backs flat. I've also read that if it's not a mirror finish on the back - it's not flat. I thought that would be more than I could do-- but gave it a shot.

I've been trying different sharpening systems, oil stone, diamond stones, water stones, cement blocks (just kidding - saw my Dad sharpen his pin knife on a block once) and the scary sharp system. Until tonight I've not had much luck with any of them. (See my pitiful dovetails for proof!).

But tonight it really hit me that I needed to combine some of these systems. So I started with scary sharp and ended with the 8000 grit waterstone. WOW, WOW, WOW. What a difference. By the time I was done for the night I had put a mirror finish on 6 chisels. And when I say mirror--I can see the individual lashes on my eye. Now that's a mirror. So I'm guessing that that is flat enough.

And yes, before the picture police get me. I did try to get a picture but I could not get one to look right without the flash--so did not waste web space with my pictures. So you'll have to believe me!

Tomorrow I'll use the same system and see if I can get the bevel sharp.

I'm going to master this yet!


----------



## offseid (Jan 16, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *Sharpening*
> 
> I've decided that if I'm going to do a dovetail project using hard woods-- I had better get my tools sharp. My understanding is that the first thing to do is to get the chisel backs flat. I've also read that if it's not a mirror finish on the back - it's not flat. I thought that would be more than I could do-- but gave it a shot.
> 
> ...


The guy I learned sharpening from said that really, only the first 1/8" of so needs to be mirror smooth. After the chisel has gone that far into the wood, the angle of the bevel is going to do the rest for you.

Of course, the guy who taught me also told me to do the back last. But I've seen more and more "back first" people here, so maybe I'll try that next time.


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## teenagewoodworker (Jan 31, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *Sharpening*
> 
> I've decided that if I'm going to do a dovetail project using hard woods-- I had better get my tools sharp. My understanding is that the first thing to do is to get the chisel backs flat. I've also read that if it's not a mirror finish on the back - it's not flat. I thought that would be more than I could do-- but gave it a shot.
> 
> ...


that sounds nice. it should help your dovetails out a lot and most of all make it a lot easier. I remember when i did my dovetails i did the first one without sharp chisles and it was a nightmare. Then i sharpened them and it went so much smoother. just a quick question when you said "I've decided that if I'm going to do a dovetail project using hard woods". i wasn't sure if that meant that you have been using hardwoods all along or if you are just starting hardwods now. Just wondering.


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Sharpening*
> 
> I've decided that if I'm going to do a dovetail project using hard woods-- I had better get my tools sharp. My understanding is that the first thing to do is to get the chisel backs flat. I've also read that if it's not a mirror finish on the back - it's not flat. I thought that would be more than I could do-- but gave it a shot.
> 
> ...


Eric-- I've read many places that you don't need to worry about anything more than the first 1 to 1.5" on the back--there are many were would argue with that and say that the whole back needs to be mirror finished, but I'm not going there.

TWA-- actually I've been practicing on popular--which is a hardwood - but softer than most. My first box project though will probably be oak or walnut or some combination thereof.


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## kenn (Mar 19, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *Sharpening*
> 
> I've decided that if I'm going to do a dovetail project using hard woods-- I had better get my tools sharp. My understanding is that the first thing to do is to get the chisel backs flat. I've also read that if it's not a mirror finish on the back - it's not flat. I thought that would be more than I could do-- but gave it a shot.
> 
> ...


The idea behind putting a mirror finish on a larger area of the back of a chisel is that you are all set up and you can just do the larger area almost as easy as just a millimeters. Then when it comes time to resharpen, you don't have to worry about the back again, it's still flat. That makes the resharpening go much quicker because you're only touching uo the first 1-2 millimeters on the front.

On wood selection, stick with the tight grain wood.

Good luck with the dovetails, practice makes perfect.


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## jcees (Dec 31, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Sharpening*
> 
> I've decided that if I'm going to do a dovetail project using hard woods-- I had better get my tools sharp. My understanding is that the first thing to do is to get the chisel backs flat. I've also read that if it's not a mirror finish on the back - it's not flat. I thought that would be more than I could do-- but gave it a shot.
> 
> ...


Ditto on the flat back. Flatten and polish as much as you're willing. I do several inches if not the whole back. I get the mirror finish easiest on 2000 grit wet/dry paper on a granite surface plate. After that, the only reason to touch the back is to remove the wire edge you get from honing the bevel. A couple of strokes on a charged strop and I'm back to work.

always,
J.C.


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Sharpening*
> 
> I've decided that if I'm going to do a dovetail project using hard woods-- I had better get my tools sharp. My understanding is that the first thing to do is to get the chisel backs flat. I've also read that if it's not a mirror finish on the back - it's not flat. I thought that would be more than I could do-- but gave it a shot.
> 
> ...


Thanks guys--- I need the encouragement!


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

*Sharpening frustrations*

OK--so last time I told you I was able to get a mirror finish on the backs of my chisels. That's all swell and nice--I can see my ugly mug in chisels now…... But I daresay my bevels are not fairing quite so well.

I have the Veritas system honing jig and am using the scary sharp system up to 600 wet/dry paper and finishing on a 8000 water stone. The jig I understand and am sure I am using it correctly. I am making uniform scratches along the bevel-- but *not* turning a burr. I tried 3 or 4 chisels this way and no burr. Then I tried to sharpen without a jig and viola! a burr.

So guys what may be the problem with the jig. I have reread the instructions and have placed the chisel in the jig as instructed and have confirmed that the bevel is flat on the paper. But still no burr.

Then I read spaides blog http://lumberjocks.com/jocks/spaids/blog/4437-- where if he can do it anyone can do it. I am thinking my name is not "anyone." I'm falling under "that other one" personhood.

Trouble shoot for me guys, please. Give me some ideas of what I'm doing wrong.

I have my Kelly Mehler class in a few weeks and I would rather have my chisels a little more respectable then they are now.

Thanks


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## jjohn (Mar 26, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *Sharpening frustrations*
> 
> OK--so last time I told you I was able to get a mirror finish on the backs of my chisels. That's all swell and nice--I can see my ugly mug in chisels now…... But I daresay my bevels are not fairing quite so well.
> 
> ...


My guess would be that if you can put an edge on the chisel without the jig that the jig might not be a quite the correct angle. Just guessing though. Let's see what others say before you take my word for it.


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Sharpening frustrations*
> 
> OK--so last time I told you I was able to get a mirror finish on the backs of my chisels. That's all swell and nice--I can see my ugly mug in chisels now…... But I daresay my bevels are not fairing quite so well.
> 
> ...


Thanks JJ


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## offseid (Jan 16, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *Sharpening frustrations*
> 
> OK--so last time I told you I was able to get a mirror finish on the backs of my chisels. That's all swell and nice--I can see my ugly mug in chisels now…... But I daresay my bevels are not fairing quite so well.
> 
> ...


Maybe it's not the jig?

When I was taking a class on sharpening, I was told that on the scale of grits, you can only skip one level at a time. So, in this guy's opinion (he studied under Tage Frid so he at least knows a couple things), you are probably skipping too many grits on your way to 8000.

If I understood this guy right, you could go from 600 to 1200 (skipping 800), and then to 6000 (skipping 4000), or do 4000 and skip 6000 on your way to 8000.

Finally…are you using a nagura stone on the 8000-grit stone?


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## Dorje (Jun 17, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Sharpening frustrations*
> 
> OK--so last time I told you I was able to get a mirror finish on the backs of my chisels. That's all swell and nice--I can see my ugly mug in chisels now…... But I daresay my bevels are not fairing quite so well.
> 
> ...


I'd look good and hard at where the edge of that bevel lands on the paper or stone when in the jig. If it is set to the right angle, or a degree or so higher, I'd think you'd have a burr within a few strokes, pull it off on the stone you polished up that back on and move on to the next…

I don't think the grit has to do with not getting a burr…if you're sharpening an edge, you oughtta get a burr regardless of grit, whether it's 220, 400, 600, 1000, 4000, 8000 (tho the burr from the 8000 might be slighlty harder to detect)...

If your primary bevel angle has been established, you shouldn't have to work your way up to 600, but rather you should be able to get away with starting at about 1000, pull the burr off and head to the 8000. (I use a 1000 followed by a 6000 with very satisfactory results).


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## Steelmum (Jul 21, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Sharpening frustrations*
> 
> OK--so last time I told you I was able to get a mirror finish on the backs of my chisels. That's all swell and nice--I can see my ugly mug in chisels now…... But I daresay my bevels are not fairing quite so well.
> 
> ...


When I first tried using a sharpening jig I had trouble with the chisel slipping. I would get everything set up properly and after double checking, I would move it to the stone and it would slip. One slip and it is no longer touching properly.


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## Lakey (Jan 27, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *Sharpening frustrations*
> 
> OK--so last time I told you I was able to get a mirror finish on the backs of my chisels. That's all swell and nice--I can see my ugly mug in chisels now…... But I daresay my bevels are not fairing quite so well.
> 
> ...


Geez Betsy - I feel your frustration. You are getting a lot of advice from many directions and it's hard without a demo. Have you looked at any DVDs or online video tutorials? This is my step-by-step evaluation, and I'm probably going to repeat what other folks have already said, so bear with me. Question first - did you already hollow grind your chisels on a grinding wheel? If so, then …

1. After you put the chisel in the guide and before you tighten it, put them on a piece of MDF or something flat and adjust the chisel in the guide until the bevel is flat on the MDF, then tighten the sucker down. This just helps set-up a little.

2. You can start honing the bevel on a 1000 grit stone - skip the lower grit, it won't help and might be contributing to the problem. Put the bevel flat on the stone, just like on the MDF, press down firmly on the bevel, and PULL the whole thing toward you, with constant pressure on the bevel. Keep doing this - press on the bevel and pull toward you - it's much easier to control on the pull stroke. Do this maybe 15 times and then feel the back of the bevel with your fingernail. You're looking for a little wiry edge, not a great big burr. All this means is that you have successfully removed some steel. When you feel this wire/burr, move to the next stone. I go from 1000 to 4000.

3. On the 4000 grit stone, start by working the back of the chisel to remove the wire/burr you just created. No need to remove the chisel from the guide. Then repeat the same thing - press on the bevel, pull the chisel toward you, maintaining the pressure. When you feel the wire/burr, move up to 8000 and …

4. Same as number 3. When you get your burr on the 8000 stone, remove it on the 8000 stone or if you have and use a honing strop or diamond paste, do that.

If you are going to look at a DVD, I would caution against David Charlesworth's, not because he doesn't know what he's doing, but he makes it sound soooo complicated - and he talks too slowly!

Also, secure your stones somehow - lots of ways to do this - so they don't wiggle around on you while you're trying to do this. Keep the stone wet, but the slurry is your friend.

I hope this helps.

-Lakey


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## MikeLingenfelter (Feb 19, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Sharpening frustrations*
> 
> OK--so last time I told you I was able to get a mirror finish on the backs of my chisels. That's all swell and nice--I can see my ugly mug in chisels now…... But I daresay my bevels are not fairing quite so well.
> 
> ...


I was thinking the same thing Dorje was thinking. Is your bevel set correctly in the jig. If you aren't removing material from the tip, you will not raise a burr. Take a Sharpie and mark the tip of your chisel and take a few passes. Did you remove the mark? If not, you bevel might be set to low in relation to your flattening surface. If it did remove the mark, it's possible that your back is not really flat. It maybe polished but it might not be flat.


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## Phishead (Jan 9, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *Sharpening frustrations*
> 
> OK--so last time I told you I was able to get a mirror finish on the backs of my chisels. That's all swell and nice--I can see my ugly mug in chisels now…... But I daresay my bevels are not fairing quite so well.
> 
> ...


I just sharpen mine on the concrete driveway. It makes nice, uniform 4 Grit scratches.


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Sharpening frustrations*
> 
> OK--so last time I told you I was able to get a mirror finish on the backs of my chisels. That's all swell and nice--I can see my ugly mug in chisels now…... But I daresay my bevels are not fairing quite so well.
> 
> ...


Guys-- thanks for the help. I think I've worked it out. I don't have it perfect but I think it was definitely a problem with how my jig was set up. I took some time to really look at the instructions and at how I had it set and low and behold I did have a wrong setting.

Steelmum-- as to the slipping-I was having trouble with that to--but have found out my problem on that as well. You have to make sure that the chisel is dead center in the jig--so use your referencing jig to make sure it is. Then when you tighten the two clamp screws do a little on one side and then a little on the other until it is tight. Then hold the jig up to the light and make sure that the clamp in sitting perfectly level on your chisel. If it is not you'll know right away because you'll see some light-- and it will slip when you start to work on it.

Lakey do you always sharpen on the pull stroke? I've been doing push and pull on the lower grits and then switch to a pull stroke only on the higher grits. I'm also working on a system to keep those stones in order as well.

So long and short--- I have been getting a wire edge all evening and I think I'm starting to get it. (I know, I know, I'm a slow learner!) I even tried one chisel on end grain of a pine board and it did a whole lot better than it had. So I know I'm making progress.

Thanks for all your great help and support. I know that I would not be as far along on this without all my friends here at LJ.

Tony--as for the concrete driverway--I remember my Dad sharpening his knife on the concrete--seemed to work for him. But I do think I'll stay with waterstones and sandpaper.


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## AlNavas (Oct 16, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Sharpening frustrations*
> 
> OK--so last time I told you I was able to get a mirror finish on the backs of my chisels. That's all swell and nice--I can see my ugly mug in chisels now…... But I daresay my bevels are not fairing quite so well.
> 
> ...


Pretty cool, Betsy!

Not too long ago I took about two weeks off from project work to do exactly what you are doing. I finally have sharp chisels! I share your joy, Betsy - and congratulations!

I am mostly a power tool guy, but more and more I am getting into hand tools, to be able to accomplish things that can be done properly only with hand tools. I am having a blast.


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## Dorje (Jun 17, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Sharpening frustrations*
> 
> OK--so last time I told you I was able to get a mirror finish on the backs of my chisels. That's all swell and nice--I can see my ugly mug in chisels now…... But I daresay my bevels are not fairing quite so well.
> 
> ...


You seem to be going through this process a lot faster than some of us!

I'm glad you're getting better results a day later!


----------



## spaids (Apr 15, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *Sharpening frustrations*
> 
> OK--so last time I told you I was able to get a mirror finish on the backs of my chisels. That's all swell and nice--I can see my ugly mug in chisels now…... But I daresay my bevels are not fairing quite so well.
> 
> ...


Matts video is a good and free resource. It helped me a lot. He posted it Sunday August 19th 2007.


----------



## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Sharpening frustrations*
> 
> OK--so last time I told you I was able to get a mirror finish on the backs of my chisels. That's all swell and nice--I can see my ugly mug in chisels now…... But I daresay my bevels are not fairing quite so well.
> 
> ...


Spaids--that's a good video. I have not watched his videos before. Think I'll have to be checking out some more of them.

Thanks!


----------



## Lakey (Jan 27, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *Sharpening frustrations*
> 
> OK--so last time I told you I was able to get a mirror finish on the backs of my chisels. That's all swell and nice--I can see my ugly mug in chisels now…... But I daresay my bevels are not fairing quite so well.
> 
> ...


Betsy - I only did the pull-stroke thing when I was learning because it's so much easier to control. Sounds like you're there, though - congratulations on making such great progress. It isn't easy!

-Lakey


----------



## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Sharpening frustrations*
> 
> OK--so last time I told you I was able to get a mirror finish on the backs of my chisels. That's all swell and nice--I can see my ugly mug in chisels now…... But I daresay my bevels are not fairing quite so well.
> 
> ...


Thanks Lakey--I am getting there-still got a ways to go though to be above the novice line-- but working on it and having fun on the journey.


----------



## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

*Sharpening - from frustration to pretty close to elation*

Still working on sharpening my tools on the way to making a dovetail project. I must say if you told me even two short years ago that I would be proud to post the following pictures - I would have rolled my eyes. Now, however, the scene changes to being able to finally post those pictures.

So here are my first real shavings with a blade that I sharpened.

The first picture is edge shavings



Here is a pile of face grain shavings.



My chisels are getting better also!





Sharper chisel--better dovetail



I still have a ways to go but I think I'm getting there.

I really appreciate all the help and tips you all have been giving me. I can see myself doing that dovetail project pretty soon.


----------



## GaryK (Jun 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Sharpening - from frustration to pretty close to elation*
> 
> Still working on sharpening my tools on the way to making a dovetail project. I must say if you told me even two short years ago that I would be proud to post the following pictures - I would have rolled my eyes. Now, however, the scene changes to being able to finally post those pictures.
> 
> ...


Sharp tools can make all the difference Betsy.


----------



## offseid (Jan 16, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *Sharpening - from frustration to pretty close to elation*
> 
> Still working on sharpening my tools on the way to making a dovetail project. I must say if you told me even two short years ago that I would be proud to post the following pictures - I would have rolled my eyes. Now, however, the scene changes to being able to finally post those pictures.
> 
> ...


Awesome. I love sharpening.


----------



## rikkor (Oct 17, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Sharpening - from frustration to pretty close to elation*
> 
> Still working on sharpening my tools on the way to making a dovetail project. I must say if you told me even two short years ago that I would be proud to post the following pictures - I would have rolled my eyes. Now, however, the scene changes to being able to finally post those pictures.
> 
> ...


I don't love sharpening, but I love sharp tools.


----------



## sbryan55 (Dec 8, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Sharpening - from frustration to pretty close to elation*
> 
> Still working on sharpening my tools on the way to making a dovetail project. I must say if you told me even two short years ago that I would be proud to post the following pictures - I would have rolled my eyes. Now, however, the scene changes to being able to finally post those pictures.
> 
> ...


I agree with rikkor, somewhat. Sharpening is like mowing the grass. It is not something I love doing but looking at the end result makes the process worthwhile. But it is an epiphany of sorts when you begin using sharp tools. All sorts of new possibilities open up for you.

Have fun.


----------



## GMoney (Dec 27, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Sharpening - from frustration to pretty close to elation*
> 
> Still working on sharpening my tools on the way to making a dovetail project. I must say if you told me even two short years ago that I would be proud to post the following pictures - I would have rolled my eyes. Now, however, the scene changes to being able to finally post those pictures.
> 
> ...


Nice job Betsy! The tools look very sharp now and it will be a pleasure to make your dovetails with them. I agree too that your dovetails look great now!


----------



## jjohn (Mar 26, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *Sharpening - from frustration to pretty close to elation*
> 
> Still working on sharpening my tools on the way to making a dovetail project. I must say if you told me even two short years ago that I would be proud to post the following pictures - I would have rolled my eyes. Now, however, the scene changes to being able to finally post those pictures.
> 
> ...


I really fall short when it comes to keeping my tools sharp as they should be. I kinda sharpen then only when I have to. Bad me. And there are many times when I have to.


----------



## teenagewoodworker (Jan 31, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *Sharpening - from frustration to pretty close to elation*
> 
> Still working on sharpening my tools on the way to making a dovetail project. I must say if you told me even two short years ago that I would be proud to post the following pictures - I would have rolled my eyes. Now, however, the scene changes to being able to finally post those pictures.
> 
> ...


wow those look really sharp. it does make everything so much easier to. my chisels are so bad that they won't hold an edge for more that a couple of minutes. its good to see that you've got the hang of sharpening and are now producing some really nice and sharp tools. that will help you out a lot along the way. keep up the great work.


----------



## offseid (Jan 16, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *Sharpening - from frustration to pretty close to elation*
> 
> Still working on sharpening my tools on the way to making a dovetail project. I must say if you told me even two short years ago that I would be proud to post the following pictures - I would have rolled my eyes. Now, however, the scene changes to being able to finally post those pictures.
> 
> ...


For me it's relaxing. Something about the sound of the chisels going back and forth across the stones, I dunno, it's kind of like a zen moment or something. A messy zen moment.


----------



## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Sharpening - from frustration to pretty close to elation*
> 
> Still working on sharpening my tools on the way to making a dovetail project. I must say if you told me even two short years ago that I would be proud to post the following pictures - I would have rolled my eyes. Now, however, the scene changes to being able to finally post those pictures.
> 
> ...


Thanks guys. I'm certainly on my way.

Eric-- I think you are right about the zen thing. But I think, for me anyway, that applies to all the hand tool stuff. It's so quite and relaxing. Not that I plan on giving up my power tools, but the power zen is not as relaxing as the hand tool zen.


----------



## grovemadman (Jan 28, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *Sharpening - from frustration to pretty close to elation*
> 
> Still working on sharpening my tools on the way to making a dovetail project. I must say if you told me even two short years ago that I would be proud to post the following pictures - I would have rolled my eyes. Now, however, the scene changes to being able to finally post those pictures.
> 
> ...


That's what I'm talkin' about - nice razor sharp tools and shavings you hate to throw away. I save my shavings and bring them camping with me to sacrifice them to the woodworking gods. The gods hav smiled upon me for the most part so far…..


----------



## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

*Plane refurbishing job*

I've had this e-bay plane for quite some time now. I've had it apart and left it on my fireplace hearth for months just looking at it, not really knowing what to do with it. Got a wild hair this morning and picked it up and started to work on it. It's no where near perfection as, honestly, I really don't know what I'm doing, but it works. This is the plane as I got it.





I had already taken off the tote and front knob and put a new finish on those. But as for working, this would not have cut butter-- but now….

Before



After. Granted this is cypress which is not such a hard wood--but still…





I'm feeling so much better about my tools now that I'm starting to figure out how to sharpen them. I'll have my sharpening class at Kelly Mehler's school in a few weeks and that should really help me a lot.



The tote and front knob are not really tight-- but I figure that the class I'm taking will fix that for me.

Thanks for all your encouragement and tips along the way.


----------



## SST (Nov 30, 2006)

Betsy said:


> *Plane refurbishing job*
> 
> I've had this e-bay plane for quite some time now. I've had it apart and left it on my fireplace hearth for months just looking at it, not really knowing what to do with it. Got a wild hair this morning and picked it up and started to work on it. It's no where near perfection as, honestly, I really don't know what I'm doing, but it works. This is the plane as I got it.
> 
> ...


Nice job. From the pics, it appears that you have a type 17 Stanley (WWII era). If you haven't yet been to Patrick's Blood and Gore page, there's a wealth of info there on Stanley planes & their history. I'd add a link if I knew how, but you can just google it by that name.
I started by cleaning up one, and now I own about a dozen. (I am not a collector…I am not a collector, he said over & over again as they put him in the rubber room) -SST


----------



## teenagewoodworker (Jan 31, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *Plane refurbishing job*
> 
> I've had this e-bay plane for quite some time now. I've had it apart and left it on my fireplace hearth for months just looking at it, not really knowing what to do with it. Got a wild hair this morning and picked it up and started to work on it. It's no where near perfection as, honestly, I really don't know what I'm doing, but it works. This is the plane as I got it.
> 
> ...


thats a nice find. those old planes are very nice and unlike a lot of the big box store hand tools they were made to last. I think that this one is in the right hands and once you tune it up some more and get some more work with it it will perform as good or better that any other planes that you can get out there. One of my friends has an old Stanley (not sure if its a bedrock I thought it was) Jointer Plane. and i have got to say that it is a beauty. all the parts except for the handles are cast Iron or metal. it is a beautiful plane and works great. thanks for the post.


----------



## Radish (Apr 11, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Plane refurbishing job*
> 
> I've had this e-bay plane for quite some time now. I've had it apart and left it on my fireplace hearth for months just looking at it, not really knowing what to do with it. Got a wild hair this morning and picked it up and started to work on it. It's no where near perfection as, honestly, I really don't know what I'm doing, but it works. This is the plane as I got it.
> 
> ...


SST is all over the differential diagnosis. (the bakelite knob is a dead giveaway for WWII era Stanleys -Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition we'll be using that brass for other purposes!).

Patrick Leach's Blood and Gore page lives here (right after you promise not to rip off his research to sell your plane on eBay).


----------



## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Plane refurbishing job*
> 
> I've had this e-bay plane for quite some time now. I've had it apart and left it on my fireplace hearth for months just looking at it, not really knowing what to do with it. Got a wild hair this morning and picked it up and started to work on it. It's no where near perfection as, honestly, I really don't know what I'm doing, but it works. This is the plane as I got it.
> 
> ...


Thanks guys.

Doug - I promise!

I've gone to the site-- but can't find the one you are thinking this plane is. The plane body says Bailey, the lever cap says Stanley. It is marked as a 5 1/4. I don't see a casting date on it.


----------



## SST (Nov 30, 2006)

Betsy said:


> *Plane refurbishing job*
> 
> I've had this e-bay plane for quite some time now. I've had it apart and left it on my fireplace hearth for months just looking at it, not really knowing what to do with it. Got a wild hair this morning and picked it up and started to work on it. It's no where near perfection as, honestly, I really don't know what I'm doing, but it works. This is the plane as I got it.
> 
> ...


There's another site that might help. Again, I'm not savvy on adding links, but the site is www.hyperkitten.com
Click on old tools and then plane type study. You can use it to type your plane. 
It's not a perfect system as there were variants and sometimes previous owners just mixed up parts, but regardless, the Stanley/Bailey planes are hard to beat. Enjoy! -SST


----------



## Caliper (Mar 12, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Plane refurbishing job*
> 
> I've had this e-bay plane for quite some time now. I've had it apart and left it on my fireplace hearth for months just looking at it, not really knowing what to do with it. Got a wild hair this morning and picked it up and started to work on it. It's no where near perfection as, honestly, I really don't know what I'm doing, but it works. This is the plane as I got it.
> 
> ...


Betsy, nice work. I've got a few ebay specials that are waiting in the corner and one of mine happens to be WWII era with the bakelite knob. I learned something about the planes from that era. Although they kept the brass for bullets they didn't skimp on the casting. Often, the shoulders of these planes are thicker than their predecessors. Thus, making them a little heavier which can help with chatter on the trickier species.

Have fun in your class at Mehler's school! I look forward to a report.


----------



## WayneC (Mar 8, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Plane refurbishing job*
> 
> I've had this e-bay plane for quite some time now. I've had it apart and left it on my fireplace hearth for months just looking at it, not really knowing what to do with it. Got a wild hair this morning and picked it up and started to work on it. It's no where near perfection as, honestly, I really don't know what I'm doing, but it works. This is the plane as I got it.
> 
> ...


Well done. Glad to see you put it to use.


----------



## Radish (Apr 11, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Plane refurbishing job*
> 
> I've had this e-bay plane for quite some time now. I've had it apart and left it on my fireplace hearth for months just looking at it, not really knowing what to do with it. Got a wild hair this morning and picked it up and started to work on it. It's no where near perfection as, honestly, I really don't know what I'm doing, but it works. This is the plane as I got it.
> 
> ...


Oooh, Betsy it's a junior jack...

Good score!

Here is the flowchart, that may make things easier to scope out (attributed to Roger K. Smith, Thom Trail and others).

Dandling that picture even managed to draw WayneC into a post. Good work. We haven't seen enough of him around here of late.


----------



## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Plane refurbishing job*
> 
> I've had this e-bay plane for quite some time now. I've had it apart and left it on my fireplace hearth for months just looking at it, not really knowing what to do with it. Got a wild hair this morning and picked it up and started to work on it. It's no where near perfection as, honestly, I really don't know what I'm doing, but it works. This is the plane as I got it.
> 
> ...


Thanks Wayne-- glad to see on the site again!

Thanks for the website Doug-- very interesting reading. I really had no idea what I have. Now that I've got it sharpened up I'm sure I'll use it more.

Thanks again.


----------



## HokieMojo (Mar 11, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *Plane refurbishing job*
> 
> I've had this e-bay plane for quite some time now. I've had it apart and left it on my fireplace hearth for months just looking at it, not really knowing what to do with it. Got a wild hair this morning and picked it up and started to work on it. It's no where near perfection as, honestly, I really don't know what I'm doing, but it works. This is the plane as I got it.
> 
> ...


Betsy,
Looks like I bought almost the same plane as you (albeight accidentally). I was bidding on a #7 and the seller was also offering a #5. I picked it up at the same time because the shipping for an additional plane was free. I'm a bit disappointed because the front knob has a crack. I was also a bit disappointed because the very confusing research I've done seemed to indicate the WWII planes (mine has a bakelight knob too which also was hard to tell from the photos) were the start of Stanley's decline, but everything here seems to indicate that it should still be awfully good. I think the best evidence is the photo of the board you cleaned up. Thanks for posting this thread. Its already a help for me.


----------



## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

*Trimming up with a plane*

No pictures this time. Just wanted to share my success with my block plane. Finally got it sharp and today - used it to my advantage. I'm making a set of chairs for my boss's wife's birthday. One footstool was not sitting right--- so I figured out what leg needed trimmed a bit--- and planed it down. Now the stool sits perfect! I'm so excited that my hand tools are starting to pay off for me.

Isn't it amazing how something so simple can make you happy!

thanks for helping me along the way to getting here.


----------



## GaryK (Jun 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Trimming up with a plane*
> 
> No pictures this time. Just wanted to share my success with my block plane. Finally got it sharp and today - used it to my advantage. I'm making a set of chairs for my boss's wife's birthday. One footstool was not sitting right--- so I figured out what leg needed trimmed a bit--- and planed it down. Now the stool sits perfect! I'm so excited that my hand tools are starting to pay off for me.
> 
> ...


Good job! Next thing you know you'll be doing it blindfolded.


----------



## teenagewoodworker (Jan 31, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *Trimming up with a plane*
> 
> No pictures this time. Just wanted to share my success with my block plane. Finally got it sharp and today - used it to my advantage. I'm making a set of chairs for my boss's wife's birthday. One footstool was not sitting right--- so I figured out what leg needed trimmed a bit--- and planed it down. Now the stool sits perfect! I'm so excited that my hand tools are starting to pay off for me.
> 
> ...


great job! its amazing the satisfaction you can get when using a properly tuned hand plane or any other hand tool and just how good they can be. thanks for the post!


----------



## sbryan55 (Dec 8, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Trimming up with a plane*
> 
> No pictures this time. Just wanted to share my success with my block plane. Finally got it sharp and today - used it to my advantage. I'm making a set of chairs for my boss's wife's birthday. One footstool was not sitting right--- so I figured out what leg needed trimmed a bit--- and planed it down. Now the stool sits perfect! I'm so excited that my hand tools are starting to pay off for me.
> 
> ...


Betsy,

You are truly an inspiration to us all. Great post!! And I am excited for you as well.


----------



## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Trimming up with a plane*
> 
> No pictures this time. Just wanted to share my success with my block plane. Finally got it sharp and today - used it to my advantage. I'm making a set of chairs for my boss's wife's birthday. One footstool was not sitting right--- so I figured out what leg needed trimmed a bit--- and planed it down. Now the stool sits perfect! I'm so excited that my hand tools are starting to pay off for me.
> 
> ...


Thanks guys. I've checked that stool about 4 times now-- and it still sits flat! Yee haw!


----------



## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

*Plane fun*

I was digging around the garage earlier today and found a cutting board project that I did last Christmas that did not turn out so good. I put it aside because I just could not bring myself to throw away the wood. We all have those projects laying around.

Tonight after dinner I decided to give the planes a try to see if I could straighten this board out and flatten it.

I still need to a do a bit on the flattening - but I'll save that for tomorrow when I have time to sharpen again and reset the plane. But here are the edges--I think I did ok.

This first picture shows a large tear out on the side.



This next picture shows where the ends of each strip does not align.



Taking light cuts the tear out on the left side took about 40 passes and the other side about 20.





I'll finish flattening it tomorrow and I think I'll put this away as a Christmas present for this coming year!

I'm just having to much fun with this hand tool stuff.


----------



## sbryan55 (Dec 8, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Plane fun*
> 
> I was digging around the garage earlier today and found a cutting board project that I did last Christmas that did not turn out so good. I put it aside because I just could not bring myself to throw away the wood. We all have those projects laying around.
> 
> ...


Good job, Betsy. That looks pretty good. I am glad to see that you are having fun because that really what is important.


----------



## AlNavas (Oct 16, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Plane fun*
> 
> I was digging around the garage earlier today and found a cutting board project that I did last Christmas that did not turn out so good. I put it aside because I just could not bring myself to throw away the wood. We all have those projects laying around.
> 
> ...


Betsy,

Just HOW cool is THAT???  I am also having fun with the hand tools, and trying to improve a little every day. Glad you were able to salvage this board, thanks to hand tools.


----------



## teenagewoodworker (Jan 31, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *Plane fun*
> 
> I was digging around the garage earlier today and found a cutting board project that I did last Christmas that did not turn out so good. I put it aside because I just could not bring myself to throw away the wood. We all have those projects laying around.
> 
> ...


thats cool betsy, i love it when you try something and just can't figure it out but then come back later and are able to do it. It gives such a sense of satisfaction. especially with hand tools. thanks for the post and keep up the great work!


----------



## Taigert (Nov 20, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Plane fun*
> 
> I was digging around the garage earlier today and found a cutting board project that I did last Christmas that did not turn out so good. I put it aside because I just could not bring myself to throw away the wood. We all have those projects laying around.
> 
> ...


It's hard to beat the feeling you get from working with well tuned hand tools.
Nice work!


----------



## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Plane fun*
> 
> I was digging around the garage earlier today and found a cutting board project that I did last Christmas that did not turn out so good. I put it aside because I just could not bring myself to throw away the wood. We all have those projects laying around.
> 
> ...


thanks guys!


----------



## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

*Excellent customer service*

Well--- as you know I've been collecting my toolbox full of hand tools. I recently bought a low angle block plane from Lee Valley. It's a good plane. The one I received however had a small problem. I could not keep the brass toe knob tight and after several strokes the mouth opening would change. Aggravating for sure. So after deciding I needed a solution I e-mailed LV customer service. We've gone back and forth with e-mails, me explaining the problem, them asking questions to clarify, etc. We finally came up with the fact that the knob's screw was a smidge too long and therefore, not seating properly. We confirmed this by putting a small washer under the knob and presto - it now stays put. The other little problem was the screw hole on the toe itself was drilled off center so that may have contributed to the problem.

Long story short though--they are going to send me a new plane! Now some would say that that is what should happen. And probably so. But I didn't have to ask. I would have lived with the solution, after all, you can't even see the washer under the knob--you'd only know it was there if I told you. All I wanted was a solution, not necessarily a new plane. Not every problem deserves a new product. This just shows the level of customer service at Lee Valley exceeds most expectations.

Next time I need a woodworking tool - I'll be shopping at Lee Valley.

I like this plane because it excels at the edge grain issue, but also it's great for shooting small parts for my miniature things.

Anyway-- that's my story and I'm sticking to it!


----------



## teenagewoodworker (Jan 31, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *Excellent customer service*
> 
> Well--- as you know I've been collecting my toolbox full of hand tools. I recently bought a low angle block plane from Lee Valley. It's a good plane. The one I received however had a small problem. I could not keep the brass toe knob tight and after several strokes the mouth opening would change. Aggravating for sure. So after deciding I needed a solution I e-mailed LV customer service. We've gone back and forth with e-mails, me explaining the problem, them asking questions to clarify, etc. We finally came up with the fact that the knob's screw was a smidge too long and therefore, not seating properly. We confirmed this by putting a small washer under the knob and presto - it now stays put. The other little problem was the screw hole on the toe itself was drilled off center so that may have contributed to the problem.
> 
> ...


cool! i love great customer service, it makes your whole experience better and makes you want to come back. its really a great sales ploy. i think that some other companies should really try it!


----------



## matter (Jan 30, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *Excellent customer service*
> 
> Well--- as you know I've been collecting my toolbox full of hand tools. I recently bought a low angle block plane from Lee Valley. It's a good plane. The one I received however had a small problem. I could not keep the brass toe knob tight and after several strokes the mouth opening would change. Aggravating for sure. So after deciding I needed a solution I e-mailed LV customer service. We've gone back and forth with e-mails, me explaining the problem, them asking questions to clarify, etc. We finally came up with the fact that the knob's screw was a smidge too long and therefore, not seating properly. We confirmed this by putting a small washer under the knob and presto - it now stays put. The other little problem was the screw hole on the toe itself was drilled off center so that may have contributed to the problem.
> 
> ...


I have never had anything but the best customer service from Lee Valley


----------



## Woodhacker (Mar 16, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *Excellent customer service*
> 
> Well--- as you know I've been collecting my toolbox full of hand tools. I recently bought a low angle block plane from Lee Valley. It's a good plane. The one I received however had a small problem. I could not keep the brass toe knob tight and after several strokes the mouth opening would change. Aggravating for sure. So after deciding I needed a solution I e-mailed LV customer service. We've gone back and forth with e-mails, me explaining the problem, them asking questions to clarify, etc. We finally came up with the fact that the knob's screw was a smidge too long and therefore, not seating properly. We confirmed this by putting a small washer under the knob and presto - it now stays put. The other little problem was the screw hole on the toe itself was drilled off center so that may have contributed to the problem.
> 
> ...


I bought a low angle jack plane from LV a couple years ago and love it. Since then I've bought a number of other items. I agree LV is a great company. They've always been very helpul on the phone too.


----------



## gwurst (Nov 28, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Excellent customer service*
> 
> Well--- as you know I've been collecting my toolbox full of hand tools. I recently bought a low angle block plane from Lee Valley. It's a good plane. The one I received however had a small problem. I could not keep the brass toe knob tight and after several strokes the mouth opening would change. Aggravating for sure. So after deciding I needed a solution I e-mailed LV customer service. We've gone back and forth with e-mails, me explaining the problem, them asking questions to clarify, etc. We finally came up with the fact that the knob's screw was a smidge too long and therefore, not seating properly. We confirmed this by putting a small washer under the knob and presto - it now stays put. The other little problem was the screw hole on the toe itself was drilled off center so that may have contributed to the problem.
> 
> ...


Lee Valley has always had excellent customer service for me.


----------



## saddlesore (Oct 17, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Excellent customer service*
> 
> Well--- as you know I've been collecting my toolbox full of hand tools. I recently bought a low angle block plane from Lee Valley. It's a good plane. The one I received however had a small problem. I could not keep the brass toe knob tight and after several strokes the mouth opening would change. Aggravating for sure. So after deciding I needed a solution I e-mailed LV customer service. We've gone back and forth with e-mails, me explaining the problem, them asking questions to clarify, etc. We finally came up with the fact that the knob's screw was a smidge too long and therefore, not seating properly. We confirmed this by putting a small washer under the knob and presto - it now stays put. The other little problem was the screw hole on the toe itself was drilled off center so that may have contributed to the problem.
> 
> ...


Good customer service is something to be celebrated these days!


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## OutPutter (Jun 23, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Excellent customer service*
> 
> Well--- as you know I've been collecting my toolbox full of hand tools. I recently bought a low angle block plane from Lee Valley. It's a good plane. The one I received however had a small problem. I could not keep the brass toe knob tight and after several strokes the mouth opening would change. Aggravating for sure. So after deciding I needed a solution I e-mailed LV customer service. We've gone back and forth with e-mails, me explaining the problem, them asking questions to clarify, etc. We finally came up with the fact that the knob's screw was a smidge too long and therefore, not seating properly. We confirmed this by putting a small washer under the knob and presto - it now stays put. The other little problem was the screw hole on the toe itself was drilled off center so that may have contributed to the problem.
> 
> ...


"I would have lived with the solution, after all, you can't even see the washer under the knob--you'd only know it was there if I told you. All I wanted was a solution, not necessarily a new plane. Not every problem deserves a new product."

Betsy,

I'm afraid that poor products and poor customer service from the past have convinced you that you don't deserve both a good product and good service on the first go 'round. Not from Lee Valley, but from any company. After all they sent you a product with TWO deffects and you didn't feel you were owed a defect free product. Now repeat after me "I'm not going to take it anymore!" Ten times. First thing every morning should do it.

;-]
Jim


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## Radish (Apr 11, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Excellent customer service*
> 
> Well--- as you know I've been collecting my toolbox full of hand tools. I recently bought a low angle block plane from Lee Valley. It's a good plane. The one I received however had a small problem. I could not keep the brass toe knob tight and after several strokes the mouth opening would change. Aggravating for sure. So after deciding I needed a solution I e-mailed LV customer service. We've gone back and forth with e-mails, me explaining the problem, them asking questions to clarify, etc. We finally came up with the fact that the knob's screw was a smidge too long and therefore, not seating properly. We confirmed this by putting a small washer under the knob and presto - it now stays put. The other little problem was the screw hole on the toe itself was drilled off center so that may have contributed to the problem.
> 
> ...


LV does rock.


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *Excellent customer service*
> 
> Well--- as you know I've been collecting my toolbox full of hand tools. I recently bought a low angle block plane from Lee Valley. It's a good plane. The one I received however had a small problem. I could not keep the brass toe knob tight and after several strokes the mouth opening would change. Aggravating for sure. So after deciding I needed a solution I e-mailed LV customer service. We've gone back and forth with e-mails, me explaining the problem, them asking questions to clarify, etc. We finally came up with the fact that the knob's screw was a smidge too long and therefore, not seating properly. We confirmed this by putting a small washer under the knob and presto - it now stays put. The other little problem was the screw hole on the toe itself was drilled off center so that may have contributed to the problem.
> 
> ...


On the contrary Jim, I want good service and a good product every single time I buy something. Every time. However, I am a realist and know that not every product that comes off the assembly line, no matter how short the assembly line is, is going to be perfect. I can live with that. I can deal with a simple solution. Now if the simple solution was applying duct tape and/or baling wire to make it work, then I'd not be happy. My demands, of course, increase with the sensitivity/price point of the product.

I try very hard to do my job perfectly, but it does not always work out that way. I do the best I can, so does most everyone else. If I make a mistake I try to fix it. Sometimes the fix does not mean redoing the whole job. Sometimes, its a simple solution. They could have sent me a new knob and called it a day. But they went the extra mile. I appreciate that.

So do I want perfection, yes. Can I get perfection, no. Can I be perfect, sure. Will I be perfect, no. If I got my tail in a wad every time a product or service was not perfect I'd be in sorry shape. If I got poor service time after time from a business, I would not go back there. Lee Valley however, has always had a good customer service reputation. I felt like they went above and beyond with their response to my problems and deserved a kudos.

I do have high standards, sorry that you thought otherwise. But LV ROCKS!


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

*A box for Callie - a left handed experience*

There are times when you have to put everything else aside and do something more important.

I have a cat-- this cat---







There are three things this cat knows for sure. One is when I'm coming with the flea drops - she runs like mad. Second - she knows when I have chicken and runs to me fast. And third - when I have a camera. I don't think I have a decent picture of her.

Callie is 21 and is fast approaching the end of her 9th life. I've always said when the time came I would make her a special box.

Callie has bad timing. I'm not allowed in the machine shop right now and my right arm is just this side of useless for woodworking. Does not bode well for making a box, let alone a decent box.

Regardless, you have to do what you have to do. This box has been made with butt joints and screws and a lot of sweat. All the parts are hand cut and the only thing that was electric was the light and the drill to make the countersink holes for the screws. I was fortunate that I had extra pine plugs from some of the Adirondack chairs that I've done so did not have to deal with making those.





It's hard to do a lot of things with only one hand and then you put on top of that the one hand you have is not your dominate hand. But where there is a will there is a way.

Sawing the square parts was no big deal. Just took a long time. I used my shooting board to even up the edges the best I could. The screws pulled up the sides pretty well.

Where it got tricky was doing the trim and the hinge recesses.

This is how I did it.

I used my bench hook that has a 90 and 2 45's cut into the fence to cut the trim to rough lengths. I could not hold the pieces tight enough with my right hand so I clamped a block against the trim and to the fence. Cut the one side then moved the set up to the other side.





It worked pretty well. I just went slowly and I did not have much trouble with the set up moving on me. The fact that the trim is only about 1/4" thick soft pine, really worked to my advantage.

Shooting the miters was easier than I thought it would be. I used carpet tape as the strength to hold the pieces in place. This required setting the piece a little further out on the board than I would have normally done and then I ended up having to lift it up and replace it on the tape a couple of times. It worked pretty well for the left side.



The right side miter was done basically the same way, but I turned my shooting board around so that I would pull the plane like a Japanese style plane. That also worked ok, but it was not as easy as the first side.



Chiseling the recesses for the hinges has been the toughest part so far. Looking back I should not have recessed the hinges at all. But I started it I needed to finish it.

Holding the chisel was a problem. I could hold it with my right hand and strike the chisel with the mallet in my left. But the vibration from the strike HURT. I don't mind something taking a long time to do, but HURT is not good. I've got enough of that. So what's a girl to do. Make a "jig" of course!

I started with just holding the chisel with the clamp, but the clamp was slipping, so I added tape to the chisel to make a rougher surface for the clamp to grip onto. I didn't have to hold the clamp to tightly, but still the first couple of blows HURT. So I went to the kitchen and got my hot glove - that gave me plenty of padding.



This set up was really good to do the straight portions of the recess. Notching the outline was a piece of cake. Chipping out the material was a bear though. That took forever. Doing the straight cuts down to make chips was ok, but slanting the chisel to chop out those little chips was a tall order. It took about three hours per hinge leaf because the chisel kept slipping out of my clamp and I'd have to reset it. I still have one more to go.

I did not cut grooves for the bottom. I simply took scraps and made a "shelf" of sorts to lay the bottom on. These were put on with glue only. I figure that's strong enough. The box only has to hold up long enough to get buried. The bottom is just a piece of 1/4" mdf cut to size. That was really easy to cut by the way. I plan to sew a small pillow to put on the bottom for Callie to rest on. Sewing is the easiest part of the whole project. No sweat involved with that.

The lid has to be sealed shut or the pet cemetary won't bury her. This is another reason I should not have done hinges, but oh well. So I plan to screw the lid shut and put trim over the screw holes. I've got the trim precut and still have to drill the holes.

I also plan to finish it off by rounding over the edges with the block plane. Planning left handed so far is no picnic. I don't know how you lefties make it. Everything is harder left-handed.

But long and short, this is for Callie, so I don't mind the work. It's worth it for her.



I'd like to make a nicer box, but that's just not going to happen unless she manages to get healthier soon and last until after I get to feeling better.

I'm pretty happy with how the box is turning out. I'm grateful that I've been learning hand tools, because without them Callie would be buried in one of those plastic boxes and that just does not seem right.

So that's the story of Callie's box. Thanks for reading.


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## gwurst (Nov 28, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *A box for Callie - a left handed experience*
> 
> There are times when you have to put everything else aside and do something more important.
> 
> ...


That's a touching yet sad story. I have three cats and I hate to think about losing any of them.


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## tenontim (Feb 24, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *A box for Callie - a left handed experience*
> 
> There are times when you have to put everything else aside and do something more important.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the post, Betsy. You did a very nice job on the box. I do all of my work left handed. :] Actually, when I see people doing things right handed, it just looks all wrong, especially cutting lumber on a table saw.


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## GaryK (Jun 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *A box for Callie - a left handed experience*
> 
> There are times when you have to put everything else aside and do something more important.
> 
> ...


I once had a cat for 17 years.


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## teenagewoodworker (Jan 31, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *A box for Callie - a left handed experience*
> 
> There are times when you have to put everything else aside and do something more important.
> 
> ...


a very sad story. i know how if is very well to lose people close to you so i can sympathize. doing everything with your left hand must really show how important your right hand is. i could never imagine working lefty.


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## lew (Feb 13, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *A box for Callie - a left handed experience*
> 
> There are times when you have to put everything else aside and do something more important.
> 
> ...


Betsy,

It is never easy loosing a "family" member and even worse when they have been with you for so long. I know Callie will appreciate what you have done.

Be strong.

Lew


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## sbryan55 (Dec 8, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *A box for Callie - a left handed experience*
> 
> There are times when you have to put everything else aside and do something more important.
> 
> ...


Betsy,

This is one of the hardest decisions that we have to make but it is a reality given the relatively short time that these guys are with us. But, as I said in a recent post, given the love and memories that they share and leave with us the pain that comes with their passing pales in comparison. You have made a wonderful box for Callie. It is only fitting that, given your 21 years of sharing, it should be a box that you personally made for her.

Thanks for the post.


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *A box for Callie - a left handed experience*
> 
> There are times when you have to put everything else aside and do something more important.
> 
> ...


Thanks guys. Building this box has been, to say the least, an experience.


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## rob2 (Nov 27, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *A box for Callie - a left handed experience*
> 
> There are times when you have to put everything else aside and do something more important.
> 
> ...


Very cool box. It is hard to loose a furry friend that become so close to us. Let us know how it goes.


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## tenontim (Feb 24, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *A box for Callie - a left handed experience*
> 
> There are times when you have to put everything else aside and do something more important.
> 
> ...


Betsy is that one of those kevlar gloves that you're holding that clamp with? I've got to get one of those for chisel work. I will admit, I'm not going through as many band aides as I used to. :]


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Betsy said:


> *A box for Callie - a left handed experience*
> 
> There are times when you have to put everything else aside and do something more important.
> 
> ...


Tim - that is in fact a kevlar glove for the kitchen. It does not have all those little dots on it that the gloves for cutting has. It's mainly a heat resisting glove. It works great for the kitchen but is a bit slippery otherwise. I'm not sure I'd recommend it for chisel work or carving. I used it here in a pinch more as a vibration relief than gripping strength. I actually have a kevlar glove for carving, but who knows where its at.


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

*Finally sharp!*

While I've had a modicum of success sharpening my chisels, I have finally got the hang of it and actually got my chisels sharp enough to cut the fine hair on my arm and pare end grain!!!!! Yippee!!!!

My pictures stink (those digital cameras still take talent!). But you can make out that the fibers are cut not crushed.





I used a combination of methods - some I used my WorkSharp and some I used my waterstones. I think my waterstones came out just as good or better than the WorkSharp. Now maybe I'll be able to get some decent dovetails cut.

Thanks for looking.


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## Moai (Feb 9, 2009)

Betsy said:


> *Finally sharp!*
> 
> While I've had a modicum of success sharpening my chisels, I have finally got the hang of it and actually got my chisels sharp enough to cut the fine hair on my arm and pare end grain!!!!! Yippee!!!!
> 
> ...


Great Betsy, you are in the club now!


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## ferstler (Oct 5, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *Finally sharp!*
> 
> While I've had a modicum of success sharpening my chisels, I have finally got the hang of it and actually got my chisels sharp enough to cut the fine hair on my arm and pare end grain!!!!! Yippee!!!!
> 
> ...


Re: your comments about your photo skills. It looks as if you took the photos in low-level, available (incandescent) light. If you cannot go outdoors and make use of sunshine or get some very bright photoflood lights, use a flash for photos like that. Digital camera or chemical-film camera, if the shutter speed is too slow you will get movement-related blurring and probably a very shallow depth of field, due to a wide-open aperture.

Unfortunately, many digital cameras have an on-camera flash function that does not illuminate all that well. The better digital cameras have a hot-shoe on top that lets you install a powerful, rotating-head flash unit that can bounce light off of the ceiling for a nice sense of natural illumination, with no blurring.

Good job of sharpening, in any case.

Howard Ferstler


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## lew (Feb 13, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *Finally sharp!*
> 
> While I've had a modicum of success sharpening my chisels, I have finally got the hang of it and actually got my chisels sharp enough to cut the fine hair on my arm and pare end grain!!!!! Yippee!!!!
> 
> ...


Great Job, Betsy!!!

Glad you mastered the water stone, wish I could.

Lew


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## Julian (Sep 30, 2008)

Betsy said:


> *Finally sharp!*
> 
> While I've had a modicum of success sharpening my chisels, I have finally got the hang of it and actually got my chisels sharp enough to cut the fine hair on my arm and pare end grain!!!!! Yippee!!!!
> 
> ...


It's a great feeling when you can shave endgrain. Now you know you have the sharpening skills down, and can focus on the work instead of the tool.

I have great success with just using the macro setting on my camera. It gets rid of the blur/jittery shots, and takes care of the flash problem.


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