# Grizzly - Taiwan Country of Origin vs. China - A Noticeable Difference



## SawdustAndAnIPA (Jul 23, 2013)

Howdy fellow LJs,

I have relied on the LumberJocks Forum for so many great ideas and input over the last two years building out my shop that I thought I would use the recent events in my woodworking as an opportunity to share.

I first want to start by saying that I am a huge fan of Grizzly Tools. I have found them to be a great value and of very high quality. I did a lot of homework prior to choosing Grizzly. Like all of us, I wanted to stretch my dollar. Like most of us, I am a hobbyist and not a professional wood worker so the only way I am going to have an all PowerMatic shop is to win the Woodcraft Giveaway.

I started with my G0513 bandsaw. What an amazing piece of machinery for the money. That led to my 1023RL table saw; also, a great choice. And yesterday, I had the G0490X 8" Parallelogram Jointer with Spiral Head Cutter delivered. I was very excited because this unit is a behemoth! I had no shipping damage, everything was in tip-top shape as I opened my new unit. It was when I started to really look at this new Jointer out of the box that I became dismayed.

Since I have been doing business with Grizzly, a trend has been occurring. Some models of woodworking tools have Taiwan as their country of origin (my bandsaw and my tablesaw), while all of their Jointers (Polar Bear Series or their Standard Line) are all China of Origin. I almost bought a 2HP Dust Collector a couple of months ago but they discontinued it, and now all Dust Collectors that are this model are Polar Bear Only and thus China of origin. So I have refrained from buying a DC yet.

The quality controls and manufacturing of my new Jointer are very different (LOWER) than of my Taiwanese made tools. At least in regard to the finishing and powder coat. My bandsaw and table saw both have an outstanding finish and attention to detail. My new jointer on the other hand was hastily finished, run through the assembly line to be powder coat as quickly as possible and this lack of quality control absolutely shows. There are huge paint drips and runs in every corner of the base and a very large and unsightly drip running down the very center of base. These drips were not cleaned up and allowed to dry. Rather, they ran the unit through the powder coat process and now these unsightly drips are permanent. Needless to say, I was pretty upset about the finish quality of this new jointer.

My wife has since calmed me down. If I wanted a beautiful finish and paint job, I would/should of spent alot more money. Will the drips and runs in the finish affect the jointer's ability to make straight boards or square a side? If the thing weighed a hundred pounds I would send it back. But the beast weighs more than 500 and it is more than I can muscle to re-palletize, re-box, and ship this thing back. I am not going to have tours of woodshop and only I will see these flaws. However I was spoiled by my previous Grizzly purchases and when you spend perfectly good money, you like to see it used wisely.

I only have a dust collector and a lathe left to buy for the shop. I will certainly review all of my options for these remaining purchases. I know every manufacturer is trending to China but I gotta believe someone there can identify a drip when they see one. I am calling Tech-Support today and I know Grizzly will do their best to help, after all their service has been superb. However, don't ask me anytime soon how I like my new jointer - I will be a little raw for awhile.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

My 1000lb Italian made stroke sander has runs in the paint.
I bought it used but it's retail price was equivalent to a whole
home shop full of Grizzly machines.

I'd say get over it. If you want aesthetically perfect machines, 
get machines from Europe but watch out for the Italians
because their engineering is good but the paint
jobs not so great.


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## natenaaron (Jun 24, 2013)

Really? I always thought the worth of a tool was on how it performed, not the quality of the paint job.


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## lumbermeister (Dec 24, 2012)

SawdustAndAnIPA - I say, stick to your guns, contact Grizzly customer service, and demand a rebate that would make your jointer the same price as the paint blemish models they occasionally sell as specials.

Quality is a perception as much as a reality - and you are paying for this quality, perceived and actual. I work in the automotive industry - see if anyone on this forum would accept a paint blemish on his car and say, "it has nothing to do with functionality…" Though machinery does not have, what in automotive is called a "Class 'A' finish", the customer should not be made to accept severe blemishes.

Good luck, and let us know what transpires.


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## marcuscraft (Nov 14, 2012)

I've actually noticed the difference in my 1023RL vs my g0490 as well, but it doesnt bother me.


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## rrww (Aug 12, 2012)

lumbermeister got it right no one should have to accept paint that looks like that.

I look at it this way- If I have runs in my table tops and send one out the customer calls and is made do I say "it still works just fine". That's not reality - your paying for the complete package and how the paint looks is part of what your paying for. I wouldn't expect it to be 100% perfect, but it should look good at 5 feet.


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## distrbd (Sep 14, 2011)

A paint blemish on a new tool would honestly tun off or disappoint a lot of people whether we want to admit it or not but if it functions properly and there's no other issues with it I would ignore it .

With all the thing could have gone wrong with damage during shipment,missing broken parts,etc,a paint blemish is the least important reason for me to complain about.Just go in your shop and enjoy using it,Tomorrow you won't even see it under all the sawdust.


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## PineChopper (May 21, 2012)

I buy little if anything that is made in China.
I was greatly disappointed when I got a response from Baileigh Tools informing me that their tools are made in "their" plants in China. 
If I wanted low quality from China, I can shop at Harbor Freight.

I would say the paint should look good all over the entire piece of equipment. If not, it is defective.
I would wonder what else was done in a hurry.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

The paint runs would aggravate me too but I've always understood that Grizzly is a compromise brand; good quality but inconsistent QC.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

Paint defects may be an indication of poor QC, but not to the tool overall. If they want to cut down on cost, the paint department would be the best place to start. As long as the machine functions as it should, paint would be the least of my concerns.


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## robertb574 (Jan 12, 2011)

I am a retired painter. It is not that hard to apply paint properly. And if errors are made, they are easy to fix. Besides corrosion control and hiding blemishes, the paint job sells the product. If a company cannot get the painting right, I would worry about the rest of the product.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

I *STILL* love Grizzly. Like Loren says… "get over it."

My Grizzly tools/machines run just fine.


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## bowedcurly (Aug 31, 2013)

my Grizzly 490 had a few dings on it when it was unboxed but when I set it up it cuts great, once again these are production run machines they will have flaws, if you want perfect shell out about 20 grand for a custom built 8in jointer and it will be flawless, all my Grizzly tools rock THEY ROAR FOR MORE WOOD


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

Machines from Japan tend to have great-looking paint, 
but guess what? It's not thick. Even in a humid country
like Japan they don't put it on thick.

I'd rather have the paint on thick with errors than 
thin and perfect. I have a bandsaw from Japan and
it looks like it has a skin disease. It was originally sold
from a dealer in Hawaii where it probably acquired most
of the rust problem.


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## madts (Dec 30, 2011)

If paint quality is low there is a good chance that the other QC's are lacking.


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## lumbermeister (Dec 24, 2012)

*"I STILL love Grizzly. Like Loren says… "get over it." "*

*"if you want perfect shell out about 20 grand for a custom built 8in jointer and it will be flawless"*

To all who share such sentiments… Why, oh why, has Grizzly offered discounts on machines that have paint blemishes but are otherwise in perfect working order? Why should we accept lower standards of quality on a less expensive machine!

I challenge anyone - Go find someone on this forum who will accept a car, say a Toyota or Ford, replete with paint blemishes, who will then be satisfied if the dealer says, "Hey, if you want quality, get a Lexus/Lincoln!"

Many of us love Grizzly. But that does not excuse them from having to continuously improve their product (which they are certainly doing).

I also believe it is in Griizzly's interest to prevent these defects, as it suggests a paint process that is out of control. How much $$ is lost due to scrap at the paint line? And how good of an advertisement is this for Grizzly when visitors to SawdustAndAnIPA's shop see blemishes on Grizzly equipment? Or prospective purchasers see forum topics such as this?

Fellow Lumberjocks - nobody should be criticized for holding a manufacturer to higher standards, to demanding that they get it right the first time (and fix or compensate when it is wrong). The best way to assure that we continue to receive better quality equipment, regardless of price point, is to not accept substandard work..


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## bowedcurly (Aug 31, 2013)

when any company has orders that are beyond their capacity there will be substandard Quality control I know I work as a QC tech when it's slow Quality is picky when production is at capacity quanity takes over quality that's the way it is and always will be, it's been that way since Henry Ford started mass production I think


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## bowedcurly (Aug 31, 2013)

I bought Grizzly tools because they function well not for the paint job, great prices good equipment hands down


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## bowedcurly (Aug 31, 2013)

we have John Deere equipment on our farm good paint and good equipment when you pay 300.000 for a combine and 200.000 for a tractor you expect the paint to be good


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## distrbd (Sep 14, 2011)

*I challenge anyone - Go find someone on this forum who will accept a car, say a Toyota or Ford, replete with paint blemishes, who will then be satisfied if the dealer says, "Hey, if you want quality, get a Lexus/Lincoln!"*

May be we do say to Toyota,ford owners( but not about their paint quality) Hey,if you don't want a rough ride,rattling noise,cheap plastic dashboard, go get a Lexus,car manufacturers spend billions to make their car attractive ,of course there is no paint blemishes on their cars,this is not a fair comparison .
tool manufactures do not put that much emphasis on the "look " of the tool or present it like a show piece,it's about functionality of the tool,I would want the paint on my saw to be corrosion resistant,tough,durable.


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## lumbermeister (Dec 24, 2012)

*"tool manufactures do not put that much emphasis on the "look " of the tool or present it like a show piece,it's about functionality of the tool…"*

Nonsense. Even my lower-end washer and dryer have a smooth, defect-free paint job. I suspect that yours are similar in that regard.

Again, if tool manufacturers do not put much emphasis on the paint, why in the world is Grizzly known to offer paint-defective product at a discount? ANSWER: it is because they DO care about paint quality, and they know that many of we customers care about it, too.

Why are so many willing to give a manufacturer a free pass for getting something wrong?


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## shawnmasterson (Jan 24, 2013)

to those who say get over it, I say . to *lumbermeister* you took the words right out of my mouth on the car analogy. If I paid $1400 for a new jointer and it looked like that I would be on fire. now that said if I got a deal on it thats a horse of another color. I realize that they are just skin deep (hopefully), but thats not ok on a new machine. I am not saying to box it up, but I would expect compensation of some sort. personally I would not accept a discount on another a future purchase.

Thanks for reading my rant, I have had a rough night.


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## CrazeeTxn (Jan 22, 2013)

That's the beauty of this place…everyone has an opinion  And that's why we all hang out here. Gather everyone's thoughts, and make an informed decision. So here's some more food for thought…

No, it's not a $40K - $80K purchase we're talking, or even the JD farm equipment…BUT…paying for a brand spanking new machine, opening it up like it's Christmas morning, and seeing that would be a slap in the face. No, obviously the runs do not affect the functionality of the tool, or does it.

Production is probably up, so that's good, but that doesn't mean that we have to accept poor QCing. Where else has QC looked the other way in the name of production? Granted we can probably all agree that it will probably need some tuning (or at least I would), but there's always going to be that voice that would keep nagging "What else has been overlooked?"

From what I've read, Grizzly has outstanding customer service and I'm going to bet one phone call to them and they will be more than happy to give you a partial credit as others have said. Is it going to make the blemish go away…NO, but it might quiet that little voice in your head.


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## distrbd (Sep 14, 2011)

*Again, if tool manufacturers do not put much emphasis on the paint, why in the world is Grizzly known to offer paint-defective product at a discount?*

Answer: because they found yet another way to sell their product,,just like the discount for older models,because that's one area buyers are more than happy to compromise ,as log as they feel they are getting a deal.if anything we should applaud Grizzly for coming up with this and other programs or scheme to move their products.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Keep repeating that perfect paint mantra… I'll take your rejects and save a bundle every time. Just sayin'

FWIW, my last two trucks:

one got rear ended with just 900.0 miles on it.
the next new truck had a tree limb fall from a storm on it with less than 3,000 miles on it.

Like I said, get over it. You will only give yourself ulcers fussing over the makeup and you will still have an ugly appearance. Focus on the mechanics, as they are a bit harder to screw up. My 2-cents…


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## lumbermeister (Dec 24, 2012)

distribd - Dude! In answer to my question about why Grizzly offers a discount for paint blemished product, you state:

*"because they found yet another way to sell their product…"*

You mean, Grizzly does not mind getting LESS $$ for the SAME PRODUCT? They don't mind that they could have sold the SAME PRODUCT for MORE MONEY had they NOT - - - - ED IT UP?!!

Beam my up, Scotty. I can't take it any more!


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## Jeff28078 (Aug 27, 2009)

I can't believe this whole discussion is about the paint job on the machine and not one word on how it works? You'd think the dripped paint made the wood come out all torn up.


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## distrbd (Sep 14, 2011)

Lumbermeister,you had the last word.


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## garyprott (Aug 12, 2010)

My feeling is you have a discount coming. My Tablesaw, Bandsaw, Jointer and Drillpress are all Grizzly. Been thinking of getting a 15" spiral head Planer from them too. I guess I need to see where it's coming from.


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## BentheViking (May 19, 2011)

If I were given the choice between a new product with a perfect paint job or one with a drip I'd choose the good paint everyday. Now if one showed up with something wrong I might want Grizzly to note it on there end incase it ever started peeling or anything, but I don't think I'd go through the hassle of sending it back assuming everything else was fine. Now if when I called grizzly they offered a discount then I'd gladly take it.

Obviously if they have products they know have paint issues its better to keep customer service issues down by selling them at a discount rather than just trying to sneak one past someone, but from time to time things do happen.


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## RPhillips (May 16, 2013)

I hope you get a discount Grizzly, at the least.

I'd be kinda pissed too if it were me. If I'd got if for lets say $100, then I don't think I'd care all that much about the paint, but if I'm paying full retail, it better be as it should.


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## SawdustAndAnIPA (Jul 23, 2013)

Thanks all for your replies and Lumbermeister I owe you a12 pack of your choice! I stated in my post that Grizzly is great, the paint won't affect the woodwork, and I certainly won't compare my Newbie value choices in machinery with the likes of a Pro like Loren and his Italian Stoke Sander (I had to Google what the heck a stoke sander was.)

But I posted this because I'm tired of my money being worth less and less and the quality and results I get for it also being less and less! I'm sure many of you don't care that your half gallon of ice cream which was $2.50 is now 1.75 quarts and over $4.00; You folks probably eat Haagen Dazs. I'm sure you don't question why your family size bag of Doritos now is half the size it used to be, and 25% more expensive.

I live in Washington State where the local lumber mills have closed down and we buy our wood from China while we are surrounded by forests. Nothing is made in the U.S. anymore even if I am willing to pay more for it (I don't have the choice.). The point of this post was "hey fellow lumberjocks, there really is a difference between my tools with the same name on them made in Taiwan compared to this new tool made in China." I looked and even the Cadillacs of Jointers are in many cases made in China. It used to be a guy could count on quality because it said "made in the U.S.A". Or at least if you followed a brand name like Dodge it meant something. I rented a new Durango last week and I think the only parts that were not made of plastic were the tires.

If a manufacturer can't see a drip the size of your pinkey finger and address it before going to powder coat, what else are they ignoring, or do they even care? If I didn't work 80 hour weeks I would use my new jointer to make perfectly square pallets, and send the damn thing back. Not because it won't make great joints even if it has the paint job of a three year old. Rather, have the backbone to do the standup thing and reject it on the assembly line. Don't follow in the footsteps of the thugs on Wallstreet and choose greed and profits over the fundamentals like "giving the customer more than they pay for."

My point, I shouldn't of had to write this post. I shouldn't of had to listen to Loren and people who share his view, "get over it."

Someone on the painting line saw my jointers' crappy paint job and ignored it. From quality control to the guys that boxed it up, mediocre, half-assed, all acceptable qualities to get it out the door. This time I felt the need to call the world on its "everyone gets an A and nobody is a loser mentality." Well no one got an A on this deal and I like the customer almost always does, ended up the loser. It's not about returns, or credit, or even my dissatisfaction with this transaction. It's about the ever changing line in the quality-control sand…just how bad would the paint job have had to be before you rejected it and said "my customer deserves better?"


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## longgone (May 5, 2009)

You are the only one spending your hard earned money for this purchase and you are the one that has to do the right thing…not all of the posters who are not spending your money for you. 
If a person has the mindset to accept mediocre quality in what they purchase then do they also have the mindset to produce mediocre quality in their work?


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## runswithscissors (Nov 8, 2012)

I live in Bellingham, just a few miles from the "mother" plant, so I go in from time to time to look over the machinery. In general, quality (at least "fit and finish") seem to have improved a lot in the 30 or so years Grizzly has been here. Still, once in a while I see something that baffles me. For instance, there was a wood lathe on the showroom floor where the tail casting was the ugliest looking lump of iron I've ever seen. Looked like the foundry guy just stomped his boot into the sand and poured the molten iron into the hole. If I'd been a salesman on the floor, I'd have been embarrassed to show that to a customer.

I do have some Grizzly tools (14" and 18" bandsaws, dust collector, belt/disc sander, band sander), and have owned previously the 1021 15" planer and 6" jointer, and mostly they have been at least satisfactory (by the way, some of these I acquired from the scratch-and-dent corner back in the day, because I could cheerfully put up with dings to save a few bucks). But all manufacturers have their duds, which is why I have never entertained the notion that all my tools should have the same paint job.


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## knotscott (Feb 27, 2009)

If it works well I'd keep it, but you might call their service line and see what they'll offer for accepting the drips. I think the location of the drips will be all but unnoticeable once you've got a patina of saw dust on it.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

*SawdustAndAnIPA "...It used to be a guy could count on quality because it said "made in the U.S.A"…."*

IMO, quit drinking that Kool-Aid. Not all is as it once was.

Corporate America sold out the American workforce a long time ago when they off-shored so many manufacturing plants. On top of that America, by and large has ignored the teachings of W.Edwards Deming on quality control and worker empowerment. Just look how post-WWII Japan turned from junk status to tech giant.

The same thing is now happening in China right now, and America continues to miss the boat. As a matter of fact it may already be too late for the US to catch up. Sure, China has produced junk for quite a while, but in that time they were building infrastructure (plants and employee workforce). Now add a dash of higher tech/quality, and China is poised to dominate world manufacturing, just like Japan did in their post WWII transition to tech giant.


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## skipj (Mar 6, 2012)

I got the g0490×3 months ago in june and used the 10% coupon. The paint job was perfect.No runs
or any blemishes.A very nice machine.The only adjustments made were the fence stops and the
out feed table which was set to high,5 min of tuining.


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## bowedcurly (Aug 31, 2013)

Sawdust will hide a bad paint job, sounds like you need to make some dust, enjoy your jointer, have a good day


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

QC is very expensive and can add significant time to production. Two different approaches from my experience: 
1) Kenworth - anyone could stop the line at any time to fix a problem and the person who caused the problem always fixed it; either on the line or off the line after work (overtime). Each worker signed off on their portion of the truck and there were independant QC people double checking the work for every 3 stations. The factory was kept so clean I would have eaten off the floor.
2) Fruehauf - It was all about getting out the right number of units per day, too few was bad, getting ahead was equally bad. If it was wrong then someone will fix it later. They had an entire shift dedicated to fixing mistakes. Stopping the line for a mistake could get you fired. No one cleaned anything except as punishment for finishing too quickly. [note: this was some years back and that factory was eventually closed and may not be representative of the entire company]


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## Brickman (Nov 28, 2011)

I purchased a Grizzly G0453PX 15" planer last year and I am not all that happy with the level of QC on it. So far a fair amount of paint has chipped off and the gear boxes refuse to hold oil. I am a Grizzly fan but this level of finish on this planer is similar to what I would expect from Harbor Freight and not a $1600 planer. I understand that I am looking at value when I purchase Grizzly products but I do have to admit that I would not purchase again if I knew all Grizzly tools were like this. Yes the finish is slipping on the equipment coming out of China and I hope it does not continue to be this way.


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## Jim Jakosh (Nov 24, 2009)

I am sold on Grizzly tools. I have their Ultimate 14" band saw and parallelogram jointer and some air tools and they all work super. I am sorry to hear they switched from Taiwan to mainland China. I just hope the quality of the paint does not reflect the quality of design and manufacture of the products.

I know a lot of Harbor Freight tools are made in China and they are cheaper in manufacture and design and I always have to re build a lot of their tools to make them work slick, but basically they are good enough that you can do that .I would not want to have to rebuild any Grizzly tools that I buy!

Let us know how it works after a few months of use?


> ?


...................thanks, Jim


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## AdvanceWindows (Jul 18, 2013)

Grizzly tools are my right hand too, can't live without it


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## SawdustAndAnIPA (Jul 23, 2013)

I wanted to follow up and close this posting out from my view. First, a big "Thank You" needs to go out to you all for your most helpful and insightful replies. One of the reasons I enjoy LJs is that it is a great forum to share and learn from one another.

First, Grizzly told me that "paint does not affect or apply to the manufacturer's warranty" so all that I am entitled to is some free touch up paint. The new joiner has some manufacturing rubs on it exposing some small bare metal chips and gouges so the touch up paint can clean this up and prevent rust for these areas. However, not much joy from Grizzly regarding any relief due to a poor paint job. The Technical Support person did say that "he had only three or four calls on record about the paint job on this model of joiner and paint is part of the Grizzly Quality Control Process." So I'm not sure what that means other than my joiner's paint job is according to Grizzly - "a one-off and not the standard."

I want to mention that paint-job aside, this joiner is one heck of a beast! The GO490X is a 3HP unit and I think I respect this machine more than I do my Grizzly 1023RL table saw i.e. I'm more afraid of it  The unit is definitely made with quality where it counts. The beds were dead-flat true out of the box. The unit after removing the packing grease arrived rust free. The beds and fence have a nice polish with very few surface scratches. I did have to make several time consuming adjustments to the fence to true-up the bevel stops, they were way off. Most importantly, aligning the motor and belt for tension and vibration was a real bear. My father has the same model joiner that is a couple of years old now and I believe they have improved the motor mounts and bracket system since he bought his. But still, I have no less than 8 hours into the adjusting and readjusting the mounts and brackets, to eliminate the vibration. I finally learned that you don't follow the instructions, rather loosen everything and then make your adjustments and you can get it close.

I also recommend you purchase a clamp like the Bessey EZ-Clamp where you can turn the clamps backwards and press out rather than clamp in. I used this clamp to apply pressure between the motor and the top pulley to apply much more tension to the belt than the weight of the motor alone. Tech support says that I should also now look into fine tuning the pulley mounts themselves to get that last bit of vibration out of the unit.

The GO490X is a very nice machine for the money and I certainly would buy the unit again. I will continue to look for Taiwan manufacturer over China in my future machines however. I think the paint quality of this Chinese made unit, something I haven't seen in my Grizzly Taiwan machines, might be a sign of perhaps other cost reduction measures I can't so easily see. I hope not, but only time will tell. Thank you again and happy woodworking to all my peers at LJs!


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

Realistically, I wouldn't even notice it. If it were a new car, that would be a different story. I understand that it should have been better, but I wouldn't let it get my knickers bunched up. The main thing is; does it do the job it is designed to do? A discount for a poor paint job may be in order. I would keep that in mind if buying something else from Grizzly. I've owned my cabinet saw for 35 years now and I never even thought to check the paint finish. All I know is; it works great. It sits in my shop not in my living room and I couldn't care less how it looks.


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