# Do we need a new president



## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

Like all of you I have watched my net worth shrink to an alarming low as all my property's have shrunk in value to a depression style low. I have to ask will a new president help this situation and will we fix the cost of healthcare in our country will we put America back to work I need to know. Unemployment has hit 25 percent in my town and many people are becoming homeless. i see them in the car at the store all night and in then mall all day during the summer just to stay cool . 15 stores have closed in our local mall this past year. the trade deficit with china is killing us and still we do nothing to fix it. During my lifetime we were almost this bad under carter and now under Obama we are even worse. the fed has held interest rates at the bottom to preserve the economy
I don't know if the beast can be saved if it is to be saved we need a great leader even greater than Ronald Regan I feel I gave this president the benefit of my doubts and was only proven right by this collapse of the housing market my 760 thousand dollar home is worth 300k this month it declined in value another 7kn when will the bleeding stop. Is there a great leader in this bunch who can save us, I don't care what party they are in we need a great leader to get us out of this hole.I have made no choice yet who should be the man to get us out of this mess have you? Who is he?


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## TheBossQ (Jan 10, 2011)

I do not like Obama. But he is not the problem. The American people are the problem. Too lazy to vote, and too dumb to see past the BS that continues to put crooks into positions of authority/influence/leadership.

I asked a girl in my office what she thought of the Mayoral candidates in my city. Her answer, verbatim: "Oh, I just go down the list and vote for whoever is a Democrat." She didn't even know the names of the people running for Mayor. Or any other office for that matter. But by golly, if one's a Democrat, she's voting for him/her.

Obama is her hero. She said this. I asked why. She said, "I just think he's so inspirational". Sweet, cue the music. This girl has a Master's degree. From Disneyland apparently.

I continued to ask strangers, along the way the next couple days, what they thought of the Mayoral candidates. I wish I'd kept count. But it was easy to count those that knew anything. The number was two. An elderly couple. And that was it. Two people out of at least a couple dozen.

After much deliberation, I cannot vote for the Democrat. But at least I know why.

We, as a Nation, are in big trouble.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

TheBossQ: You are so right. But I think part of the problem is that the population in general has lost interest in the election process because they feel like things never really change no matter who they vote for.

Our founding fathers envisioned a government where average citizens would take turns holding political office. But now pretty much all we have is career politicians whose every vote is based not on what is best for the country, but on what is best for their own political futures.

Even when the rare 'good guy" manages to get elected, he soon finds that he is powerless to accomplish anything unless he sacrifices his integrity by making backroom deals with his colleagues.

And yes, unfortunately, too many people are like sheep. They vote for the candidate with the best name recognition and/or the best 30-second sound bites. Or, like the woman in your office, they would vote for Charles Manson as llong as he had the correct party affiliation.

The only solution I see is to have strict term limits on everybody. And no changing jobs to get around it (as in a congressman serving a term then running for the senate). But how do we ever get legislation like that passed by the same bums who never want to leave office?


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

I couldn't agree more with all three of you. I vote and I vote informed, all the while secretly thinking it's a waste of time; and it always is. I see an epidemic of apathy and entitlement. I can't bear to think of it for too long, so I give myself little tidbits like this thread every few days or so. Got to preserve my sanity, you know, so I can WORK and provide for everyone.


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## steviep (Feb 25, 2011)

I think most of us are in that camp, Al. I have found the internet age to be a hindrance to (good) information. So much more info and 98% cleverly partisan slanted.

I dread the year before elections anymore. So much negativity.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

^so true, StevieP. When I'm comparing candidates, I go amost exclusively by 1) what they claim to be about and 2) their record. Both are pretty easy to obtain on the internet but like you, that's where I draw the line. If there's a discrepancy between 1) and 2) or there's not real record at all, that worries me (see current President for example).


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## superstretch (Jan 10, 2011)

Its easy to blame other people or circumstances for things that are going wrong. Yes, in many cases, we don't have a huge influence over what happens, but the responsibility falls to us to do what is right and make well-informed, wise decisions.

Unfortunately, it will take something on a much grander scale to get the gen pop smarter, more interested, and more discerning with their votes. Another revolutionary war, perhaps.

OWS, while not necessarily sharing my views, is a good start to reform.. but many are becoming self-proclaimed martyrs because they were locked up overnight or got caught up in some tear gas. People like Patrick Henry would have laughed, pushed them aside, and shown them what real liberty is about.





Instead, we see this:





As for getting the bums out of office, all it takes is a change in the vote. It boggles my mind how Ted Kennedy was in office for so long.. and how Rangel still is.. real revolution needs to take place.





 <-He can do it.


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## popmandude (Feb 17, 2010)

Yeah..What cr said. 4 years of this on top of the 8 years of pure B.S. before, and I am afraid there won't be much left for the next monkey.

Randy


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Yep big problems and our current president really takes the cake.

Problem is even if voters are well informed, the political machine gives us only *2* "predetermined" choices from the powers that be, behind the scenes. Yes third parties exist "on paper" but there really are only 2 choices for national office.

Look at the last election - What would McCain have accomplished to stem the job losses?


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Obama knows exactly what he is doing…fundamentally changing America.

I always wanted the first black president to be Thomas Sowell..but that dream has passed.


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## dakremer (Dec 8, 2009)

Obama who?


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

I'm not an American, but I have American roots, and family that is, and many friends who are Americans.

You guys always seem to blame the current president, be he/she a democrat or a republican when really, as always, the current president inherits all the problems of previous administrations. Couple that, with a congress, a house of representatives and a senate, all, or some, with opposing political views, which most often result in a stalemate. So the president is castrated before he even takes office.

Americans are one of the LEAST taxed nations on this planet. We, just north of thew 49th, pay tax, every dime we make from January 1st………..right through till some time in June before we get to keep a dime and I dont like it but………..You guys want jobs, you want roads and hospitals, schools and universities, armed forces, a space program, police, sidewalks and garbage pick up…………..but you dont want to pay tax. When you dont make any money, as a rule, you dont pay tax and when you do make money, you dont pay tax.

You all own big screen TVs, washers, dryers, toasters, microwaves, ipods and blackberries,…………but you dont want to pay an arm and a leg for it/them…………..so they make em in China/Asia/Mexico cause thats the only way you could afford them and you hate China, that almost owns you. If you took your national debt, all of your states debts, city debts, rural debts and personal debts…………your near bankrupt.

I am my own worst enemy and I know that. You should realize the same thing and stop blaming the figure head you call a president. Do like me, look in the mirror, and see who the enemy is.

If you dont like it, change it, move where there is work. The world doesnt owe me a thing, and it doesnt owe you either.

Occupy wall street.

Here comes the flak.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

One of our probems is we elect intellectuals who have wonderful ideas but have never produced anything in their lives, other than their own self admiration for their so- called brilliance.


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## Jim Jakosh (Nov 24, 2009)

I would like to see Warren Buffet or someone from manufacturing or business in the President's seat. We need to get away from lifetime politicians. They think they are Royalty and they suck the treasury dry and spend what they don't have. my 2 cents worth!!


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## TheDane (May 15, 2008)

I have found it astonishing the way so many voters went hook, line, and sinker for BO's BS.

In my judgment, he is just an empty suit.

What we have in this country is a crisis of confidence … millions of people have no confidence in either Obama or the Congress, the banking and financial institutions, local and state governments. The paralysis is deadly, and I'm afraind it won't turn around until there is new leadership.

The thing that Ronald Reagan brought to this country more than anything else was hope and a sense of pride. We need a leader today that can play that role the way the Gipper did.


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

We certainly do need a real hero that can truly lead (and be followed with head held high).


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## RetiredCoastie (Sep 7, 2009)

Unless we want the clowns that are protesting Wall Street to run this country we as citizens need to take an active interest in what goes on in our government by being and staying informed otherwise it's going to be more of the same.
No it's not all Obama's fault but he sure hasn't helped it any either. He's a socialist and that will never change. Our nation has become apathetic and lazy. We are in the generation of "I want it now and I don't want to exert myself to earn it because It's my right". Our elected officials will do and say anything for themselves and their party. Most voters are 1 issue voters and will vote for the person who supports that issue. If people would listen and educate themselves regarding a candidate then they could make smarter decisions as to who gets their vote. A vote is the most sacred thing we have regarding our government but many just throw it away and then want to blame the other party or the last president instead of themselves.

I agree with TheDane we need another Ronald Regan. Someone that will restore confidence and pride in our population. Any of you out there that live in a democracy and want to bad mouth or criticize the USA should look to where that came from, probably by the blood and treasure from the USA!


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Sorry boys, but until the corporations loose control of the gov't, you will see more of the same. The procedures caused the 20's bubble and the 30's Depresion. There were banking and financial regulations and controls from the 40s through the 70s. This has been an 80 year cycle that has repeated itself over and over. The deregulation brought failures and corruptions starting with the S&Ls. We are moving to an oligarchy or plutocracy. You are living the end of an empire if it doesn't turn around soon.

You can blame Rs and Ds all you want. The solution will be people of common economic interests forgetting about guns, gays, abortion and the Bible taking control the of the government and Supreme Court. Unfortunately, a lot of people have to get their heads out from where the sun don't shine to make it happen.

30 years of cutting taxes on the top few % has just shifted the wealth up and moved jobs over seas. More of the same will make it worse. I don't believe Roosevelt was a great man of vision, but he was able to rise to the cause of the average American. Some one will in the future, but how long will it be? Obama in 2012, maybe. He needs to get the truth out. Ds voted with Bush 40% of the time. Rs have shut down the gov't and voted with Obama 5% of the time.

What will bring this nation back is the policies that grew the middle class and the same thing Brazil is doing now. It is not rocket science. It worked the last time and it will work again. Down with greed and multi generational accumulations of wealth. No, they are not masters of creating it. The majority are scumbags that steal and leech off the productive workers of America. I have known a few personally and am thought disgusted by them and their ilk! ;-((


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

If Reagan were running, today, they'd characterize him as a tax-and-spend Commie Pinko.

I'll say it again: I don't see anything changing until we get serious lobbying reform, and public financing of campaigns.

Meanwhile-despite how partisan some feel the need to be-it's two sides of the same dollar bill.


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## superstretch (Jan 10, 2011)

One of my favorite movies of all time .. In addition to reading the Constitution at the beginning of every session, they should play this movie.


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## CampD (Nov 8, 2008)

*superstretch*

"It boggles my mind how Ted Kennedy was in office for so long"*
Half the time he ran unapposed and dont forget these are the same people who keep electing Barnie Frank back into congress. Stuuupid voters of Mass


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Moron, no flak, but trust me, I pay taxes. If you'd like to compare tax bills in real life one day, PM me and we'll get together for some real fun. We can compare legal bills while we're at it. Although I've never been in a shred of trouble, I tend to spend an inordinate amount on legal fees to protect myself from those who feel they could better manage my assets. We could compare insurance bills while we're at it for similar reasons.

I agree with you, though, that it all starts by looking in the mirror. If you don't like what you see, you can make a change. Regarding occupy WallStreet since you brought it up (lol), congrats on defeating BOA's debit card fee. Real victory, that. Ask your local medical examiner how many drug deaths he's investigated from his local Occupy WallStreet. It's the same old thing…a handful of guys are trying to make life better and the rest are just partying, cluelessly partying, with a few rehearsed quotes at the ready.

"You all own big screen TVs, washers, dryers, toasters, microwaves, ipods and blackberries,…………but you dont want to pay an arm and a leg for it/them………….."-moron

No, most people don't want to pay AT ALL for them and they're generally successful, as a rule. I have this policy of not accepting handouts and working for everything I own. A true American sucker.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

^Neil is dead-on. Without that, we're just flapping our gums. I'd add tort reform to the list but that may be a bit selfish of me


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

If we took the money out of politics, then-absent HUGE contributions from both the trial lawyers AND the insurance companies-tort reform might be achieved by "true" market forces ;-)


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## TheDane (May 15, 2008)

As mentioned earlier, Obama isn't solely responsible for this debacle … he had a lot of help getting us to where we are today. The problem is, there is no leadership.

I think something that Congress should do (immediately) is re-institute the Glass-Steagall Act.

Glass-Steagall became law in 1933 to prevent the very kind of banking meltdown we have just witnessed.

It was repealed in 1999 (by Republicans and Democrats) and signed into law by Slick Willie. The replacement legislation (authored by Phil Gramm, Jim Leach, and Tom Bliley) effectively removed the separation between investment banks and commercial banks, and allowed investment bankers to serve as officers of commercial banks.

The repeal of Glass-Steagall was essentially what led to financial institutions that were 'too big to fail', created obvious conflicts of interest in the banking business, and had a major role in the collapse of the housing market.


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## steviep (Feb 25, 2011)

Are toasters a sign of greed? I did not know that. Now where is my stinkin' big screen TV??..... 

Topa, I love that post! As long as people keep looking at the donkeys and the elephants, we will never see the clowns running the circus.

Neil, love that post too.

Bertha, What can I say, my kinda guy.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

It seems WE all know what the problem is. Now we've just got to figure out a way to replace the entire current membership of the House and Senate with Lumberjocks.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

That's fair, Cr1. I think we'll be on opposite sides of the issue by default and admittedly, I need tort reform propositions bolied down into lay speak. I don't get that journal, so I'm biased toward the cases that get coverage and I'm certainly biased by my insurance premiums. I've never been sued (knock on wood) partly because I keep my attorney on speed dial and practice very defensively. Also in fairness, we can't reasonably clamour for tort reform whilst increasingly allowing non-physician "providers" greater power in delivery and prescription writing authority. Direct marketing of prescription-only medications to the end consumer? A good thing? Jeez.

I don't have the answer. If I was blinded by negligence and discovered my "provider's" liability was capped at $100K (in some states), I'd be not too happy. Tough topic.


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## superstretch (Jan 10, 2011)

@Charlie - that may or may not be a good idea. One one hand, the pay would be great and we'd have nice pensions.. but we'd have to get our work done quickly so we could get back to the shop.

I have a feeling the CPSC would get disciplined immediately upon our arrival.


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## steviep (Feb 25, 2011)

Buy em all one hand-plane and give them the URL. Make them join us!!


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## Knothead62 (Apr 17, 2010)

TheBossQ, master's degree from Fantasyland, more than likely.
The people that some are protesting are in positions of responsibility. Who needs to be protested- the banker making $1 million or the actor who makes $12 million PER MOVIE? Go to www.imdb.com and see what the movie stars are making and having no responsibility or contributing to anything. Just fill in the top with any movie actor/actress and go to the bottom of the bio to see what they make.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

How much of our federal tax dollars are the actors and athletes taking, though ?


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

The answer to "Do we need a new president?" for me is YES but we need a President who is solely the non political Head of State, a figurehead representing the Country, not the political party in office for 4 years. Views from overseas countries on the US can be very perplexing, some "see" the US as being an unstable country which does a 180 every 4 years, while others admire the American People and not the politicians.
In short, I believe the duties of Head of State and Head of government should be two separate titles held by different people. 
Example: When we see the Queen making State visits, she does not represent the government in office, she represents the British Country and people in goodwill between nations. Apart from that the Queen's other duties are the power to make sure free speech, religion, and free elections are guaranteed. Many countries have Heads of State who are either appointed or are hereditary and stay the course.

Perception of the US abroad should not be made by looking at a temporary Head of State/Head of Government.

As for the remarks in other posts, I wholeheartedly agree with most, the political system is broken and it looks like whoever gets elected will not solve our problems. The American public needs a kick up the rear to make them wake up and change, apathy reigns supreme and announcements of intent by politicians are fairy tales.
Only the people can turn things around if they have the time or inclination to bother.


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## ShaneA (Apr 15, 2011)

I am with the campaign contribution reformers. Its not a R or D problem with idealogoy. Its a money problem. One thing that has always bothered me about the R and D battle is if the other side came up wih an idea to truely revolutionize the world, they would still have natural opposition from the other side. Obama suffers from this, not that his plans are revolutionary, but I dont think he has gotten a lot of help. The ship was a sinking before he was captain. Working together to save it would be nice.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

I have a hard time hating Obama, the man, as much as many of my fellow Republicans. The whole mess is just embarrassing.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

steviep, NO. Upper management taking nearly all the profits out of the corps for themselves is greed. The top hedge fund managers taking 10 BILLION a year is greed. The deals they made that took down the economy is greed. Making bets against garbage securities they issued and sold to pension funds and other investors is greed. Going bankrupt and sticking up with the bill is greed. Moving 40% of the assets in the publicly traded markets into private by the mid 90s is greed. I have no idea what the total transfer is now, but that was the biggest transfer of public wealth in the history of the world.


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## TheDane (May 15, 2008)

Roger-I think I have to (respectfully) disagree on the Head of State idea. It looks like what your are talking about is the parliamentary system (with a prime minister), which can be even more unstable than the way we handle the election of POTUS. I offer the situation in Greece as evidence … Papandreou is under pressure to resign and may be facing a vote of no confidence while the Greek economy (and the entire EU) is circling the drain. The situation in Greece is largely what has been driving the roller-coaster in the stock market.

I have also never really cared much about what other countries think of the U.S. Every country has its pluses and minuses, but I think a lot of people in those foreign countries would be speaking German and doing the goose-step had it not been for the United States. Millions of Americans made incredible sacrifices for those in far off lands, we re-built the countries we conquered, and helped them install their democratic governments. In return, we only asked for enough land to bury our dead.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

TheDane - I really do think that separating the State from Politics would clarify things a lot more, just my opinion and I'm sure not many will think of it as I do.
Every country in this world gets in a mess now and again, no country is immune.

I think you should care about some other countries though, Americans take pride in their heritage which, unless they are native Indian, they have roots in other foreign countries. The sacrifice made in WW2 by Americans, brought tremendous prosperity to America which made it a Super Power. If it were not for Britain continuing fighting the Nazis after all the allies had been overrun or surrendered, indeed the US might have been goose stepping. The US entered the war when it was half way through and provided the tools and forces to help defeat the Nazis. Yet it took one mighty kick up the ass to get America's attention, because politicians had their heads in the sand, and the populous ignored the warnings, much the same as the situation today's crisis.

Perhaps now is a good time to learn to speak Mandarin ????


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Addendum:
Another thing I forgot to mention about foreign country's financial problems is jus how did they get into this mess?
Well, their banks, pension funds and stockholders bought into a boatload of fraudulent bundles of "safe" investments from the United States. The financial meltdown has affected them too, if not more. To walk away and tell them "that's your problem" is a smear on the character of the United States, which will not be forgotten.


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## TheDane (May 15, 2008)

Roger-We need to do the right thing for the United States. If we do, the rest of the world will benefit, and we won't have to worry about what anybody else thinks of us.

Right now, there is a leadership vacuum in Washington, and it is sucking the entire country dry.

-Gerry


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## xwingace (Apr 25, 2011)

Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

OK I'll fall for it

Who's Kodos?


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Gerry, I agree 100%. - Washington especially. The regular people need to stop moaning and start doing, we have to get manufacturing back, we don't have time to argue blames and philosophies, being an American at this time should not be a pissing contest, but a call to arms to save the country, not parties or banks.

Where has that "get up and go" spirit gone to? Where's John Wayne & C0.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

Roger,
I'm with you on manufacturing. We have enough paper pushers, burger flippers and "consultants" 
I once heard that for every manufacturing job, 5 indirect other jobs were created or supported.
I would love to tell how manufacturing made my life VERY successful, but I'm sure there are thousands of stories like mine.


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## steviep (Feb 25, 2011)

This is why I only buy "Dewitt" vise-grips at Estate sales.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Jim C,
I am pretty sure that most people understand exactly what Manufacturing does for us.
Not only does it vrate an industry with jobes, but i also gives us US made products to export. That's not all, it makes word for material suppliers, designers, R&D, transport companies, insurance companies, Legal services, power companies, phone companies, pension funds, healthcare etc., in fact manufacturing is the greatest source of "well being" a country can have.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Manufacturing in the USA is not cost effective based on many variables including wages, taxes and regulations.

The government needs to stay out of the marketplace.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Rocky.
You have got to be kidding. Not manufacturing, just being a customer with borrowed money from China makes the US self sufficient and prosperous ??. Someone has to explain that logic to me.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

Rocky
Tell Germany that manufacturing is not cost effective.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Jim C,
Add Japan, China, Switzerland, Sweden, Taiwan, S. Korea and a big bunch of other countries.


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## TheDane (May 15, 2008)

One of the reasons the U.S. economy is so fragile is that our manufacturing base has declined so badly at a time when we have become so reliant on consumer goods for such a large percentage of GDP.

-Gerry


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Jim C

I was not talking about Germany…..yep read my post again and no mention of anyone other than USA

And to clarify my comment, I am referring to employment in manufacturing, not output.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

Here's a good example why wages are not the reason we lost our manufacturing base. It's an excuse to feed to the populace.

I worked as a Tool & Die maker for years, and eventually started my own business.
We built high-speed progressive dies that stamped intricate electronic contacts for companies like G.E. Molex, Cinch, etc.

Work with me and follow this scenario…......

These dies were run in Hi-Speed presses that produced, in most cases 1800 parts per minute. There were 6 to eight of these presses running at one time, being watched over by one or two production workers.
1800×60 minutes x 8 hours =864,000 parts per eight hour x 7 presses = 6,000,000

Eight hour cost of 2 production people, wages, benefits, and overhead = $480.00 ($240.00 each)

$480.00 / by 6,000,000 parts = .0001 cents per part.

Let's assume the 2 far east worker's total costs are $96.00 for that 8 hour period ($48.00 each)

$96.00 / 6,000,000 parts = .000016 cents per part.

A .00015 difference!....... 5/1000 of a penny in labor costs!

Is this differential enough to make or break a component in a $1000 or $2000 computer/printer/router etc..enough to move manufacturing overseas?

I have to believe there is some serious underlying political/corporate greed, tax, and lobbying implications that was and is a basis for destroying our most successful, educated and numerous middle class.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

*"Jim C

I was not talking about Germany…..yep read my post again and no mention of anyone other than USA

And to clarify my comment, I am referring to employment in manufacturing, not output."*

Rocky,
So you won't compare another manufacturing superpower to the USA? We're not cost effective but Germany is with a higher per capita income than the USA 
Manufacturing and agricultural exports are what produce a superpower.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

I agree Jim.

Your example shows that technology and productivity has reduced employment, not output.

I wonder why a Grizzly tablesaw is half of a Unisaw? Can it all be quality or is labor cheaper abroad?


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

What a bunch of BS. So much for The Dud…


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## doordude (Mar 26, 2010)

lets just get rid of obama as soon as we can and pick a real conservative president.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

i am pleased you all are enjoying this thread . I am so glad you a enjoy political discussions. But my question has not been answered Who shall we make the next president? I am a republican but i dont line vote I AM NOT RACIST but am unsatisfied with the job our first black president has done I wont be voting for the next president because of color i will vote when i find the right guy

As far as industry we need it all to stay here give incentives for the companies to make their products here, someone should start as pliers company in Dewitt and carpet mills should return to Dalton. here is the next thing only buy things that are made in America and encourage the companies you buy from to build here .

I still need to know who to vote for and why i should give this person my vote.

Al I didn't know you were a M.D.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

No. Since there will not be a D challenge, give him a chance. The Congress usually votes about 40% with a opposite party president. The Rs have decided to stop Obama no matter what it costs the country and the world. They have shut the Gov't down and any hope of real recovery down in order to make the claim Obama is a failure. They have voted with Obama 5% of the time and even took the "Buy American" clause out of the Recovery Act. Many of those American Tax Dollars went to China thanks to the Rs. What we need is an end to the filibuster in the Senate not a different president.

The poetic justice, if there is any, was the R administration not being able to hold off the results their disastrous policies a few more month until Bush the Dumbest got out of the White House ;-)) ;-)) ;-))

The real down side of this is the very real possibility of a socialist surge sweeping the Rs under the carpet for several decades. When they go down, I am predicting it will be for a long time. It will be a generational thing with the 25% that are permanently unemployed and those that join their ranks daily that will never vote for a R for the rest of their lives. Many of those will be like me that were Rs, but have seen the light. I am tired of those bastards stabbing me in the back every time I turn around.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

topa spoken like a true donkey


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Misread Dude. Independent until further notice, too bad I don't see anything but jokers on market at this time ;-((


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Topa, I thought that was rather well put myself. I disagree with most of it but certainly not all of it. I don't envy Obama's position, like a swim meet with your hands tied behind your back.


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## seabiscuit (Oct 6, 2011)

OHHHHH NOOO!!! Our labor is going to China?


> ? WTF


?? Oh wait…blue collar, uneducated labor is going to China. Seems about right. They are cheaper. Why wouldn't it go to China.

People using this as an excuse is pathetic.


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## seabiscuit (Oct 6, 2011)

@cr1

Wait…I thought extending unemployment to (basically) indefinitely is a good thing? Doesn't that motivate people to look for jobs, increase their education and training during their "off" time, and try a new skill.

Oh wait, no - that would cause them to sit on there buttholes and take MY money - that's right…

Gosh Obama's a genius


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

"*Al I didn't know you were a M.D.*"

Yeah, he's *M*oderately *D*ysfunctional, but he still manages to make a good point every now and then.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

M.D. = Massive Debt


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

When you run out of reasonable arguments and the facts are against your position, call him a commie. Check this guy out, probably the only sane person in Congress and the Senate http://sanders.senate.gov/

1-Who on here wants to live in a country with massive unemployment and hordes a starving people living on the street and under freeway bridges?

2-Why do you guys support and defend billionaires that made it destroying this country and think you make too much?


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

thedude50,
The answer to your question is Yes, we need a President elected by POPULAR VOTE which will give us someone that the majority of the voting citizens elect.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Topa, I submit a "no" and "no", respectively.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Historically it happens that way Roger. But 2 recent disasters for the people were Slick Willy and Bush the Dumbest in 2000 http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0876793.html


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

My oppinion - yes we need a new and different president. We need to undo what he and congress have done and reform it correctly - many points were offered before that were very good and made sense.

Topa - yes, we need to change salary structures and start looking at reality. More importantly, we need to bring manufactoring, oil production, and agriculture back to the US. This whole process started with LBJ and is has blossomed to what it is now. It has been systematic and precise. The idea of being American is lost.

The idea of being rich has always appealed to me (I will never get there) BUT as my salary went up, my income took steps down. To make things worse, I know people that do not work, get regular checks and services and when you take actual take home money, they make very close to my income - and they consider me rich and evil. Oh wait, I know one that hasn't paid their mortgage for 3 years - doing a whole lot better than I am.

Something is wrong here. I work hard and am highly skilled, put myself through college (and paid it off), worked my way up the chain from a maintenance man, I see these people tell me how bad and evil I am and I am paying for them to have a lifestyle similar to mine maybe better than mine. This was done to gain votes and it works and has worked.

You don't have a class of haves and have nots, you have the workers and non-workers and the non-workers are starting to live better lives than those that work and the people that work are the evil ones.

On a closing note - when I had my own company, if I made a decision and it wasn't good, I didn't eat. If I were a senior exec for a company that employed 200,000 people plus, I would expect to be paid accordly because if I make a mistake and 10,000 lost their jobs, I would be gone and would expect to be. Nowadays, companies loose 50,000 and the idiots that make stupid decisions are kept. Not good.

Stand up and be accountable for your own actions. Society is not the reason for failure it is an excuse. If you don't want to work - tough, get off your backside and work. If you are disabled, the rules are different but there is no accountability in this country either way. Just excuses.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

^agree 100% with David. In medicine, you become evil overnight. It's quite an experience after years and years of 100-hour weeks, training in charity hospitals, being subjected to all manner of horror; when you finally get out and get your first paycheck, you're one of the "bad ones". Not only evil, but privileged evil; after all, you were born with a silver spoon, had things handed to you, etc. I'll never forget that day, becoming evil and all.

Then, of course, to protect your evilness, you'll need a bunch of expensive lawyers and insurance policies. Being evil can be pretty expensive.

And David, don't worry too much about those superexecs who make bad decisions and get themselves fired. Most of these guys make more money being gently settled down by golden parachutes that they won't miss that salary too much I always thought "parachute" was a strange choice of wording, as it would suggest "coming back to Earth" lol


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

You guys would not be working your way through college these days. Thom Hartman reported 1,000,000 applications for 60,000 McDonalds jobs. When you can't get a burger flippin' job, things are getting bad. You really needed to address all the people who want to work rather than say everyone is a no good bum because you know a guy that ….....(fill in your own scenario).

Most of the issues you refer to were caused by lawyers bleeding the productive people dry. Norman Goldman was told when he was a young attorney he would not make it in teh business because he cared. He was successful attys look at all situations for maximum cash conversion. To hell with the law, to hell with the client's best interests, to hell with ethics. Convert to cash,cash, cash, cash…...........


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

One of the reasons McDonalds can hire all those people is they received a waiver

Cr1, the retarded ape is not Biden I hope.


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

As A matter of fact, I started my BA degree at WVU in 2002 and received my degree in 2004 - while working in my cuurent position in MD, 40-50 hours a week. I was the first to graduate without attending classes on campus - all web based and portfolios. I worked my way through WITH a full time job and graduated with honors - cum laude.

If you have the desire to REALLY put forth some effort, it can be done


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

I never spent a day in college after high school, as I was to intent on learning in the real world, not theories pushed on me that had no beneficial substance.
So I went into manufacturing, started my own business, learned accounting, P&L statements etc. the hard way.
I applied proper margins, human resource management, and most of all hired employees that wanted a profession, rather than a job.
Long story short, years later I sold my business, stayed and ran it as a division for the so-called evil corporation that purchased it, and retired 7 years, after building it from a 1 man start-up, eventually into 340 employees.
Not bad for a high school education.
It can be done. Keep your ears and eyes open and jump on opportunities.
It's still America and it's plentiful opportunities in spite of the politicians.

Don't fall for the "give-in" socialism that the masses should be "given" anything, as espoused by certain socialists on this thread. They're just bitter, jealous lemmings that see anyone monetarily successful as evil.
If they used that hateful energy for useful gain, they too would move to the so-called "evil capitalist" group.


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## StumpyNubs (Sep 25, 2010)

I think people will be saying the same things about the next president as they said about this one, and the last one, and the last one…

*By the way, EVERYONE please do me and Charles a favor: click over to the Charles Niel vs Stumpy Nubs contest thread and help judge the boxes! Then come back here and continue your discussion with the warm inner feeling of having done another good deed…*


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Hey Jim, by the look of that drive and backyard, I'd say you did pretty well for yourself.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*Jim C,* I chose the real world route too after the first semester. I certainly had the opportunities to do anything I wanted and turned down more business than I did. Didn't even have a phone number listed for more that 20 years. I had no real interest in building a world wide empire. My wife and I had other priorities. I could have retired before 50 if I had wanted to do so. We took 6 week to 2 month road trips in our 5th wheel and I continued working.

The criminal activities that were exposed by Eliot Spitzer as NY Atty Gen negatively impacted our lives not to mention loosing 3 + years to medical malpractice. The corps were not always evil. This is a very different America than the one we functioned in. The Clinton, Bush, Greenspan Wrecking Crews expanding on the economic policies and class warfare started by of Reagan have moved millions in to poverty with little hope of finding a job. College grads under 30 have a nearly 60% unemployment rate. There are many sources of info that state the facts. Authors like Thom Hartman and Ravi Batra give the time, date and who. Particularly disturbing is how Brooksley Born was stopped by Greenspan and the Wrecking Crew during the creation of the still undetermined totally liability of secret derivative market.

Yesterday economics professor William K. Black, author of "The Best Way to Rob a Bank Is to Own One", was on Ring of Fire radio with Sam Seder. He was talking about the current situation in Greece and the EU along with how Wall Street bangsters cooked the books to get Greece in the EU. The motivation for the Greek people was the freedom to move from poverty to high wage countries such as Germany or Denmark; similar to the way we are free to move from state to state.

I could go on, but there is really no point to it. If you care you can Google the names I have provided and do your research and draw your own conclusions. Warning: finding everyone you believed in and supported your whole life were stabbing you in the back and destroying the future of your kids and grandkids is not an easy pill to swallow ;-((


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

*Warning: finding everyone you believed in and supported your whole life were stabbing you in the back and destroying the future of your kids and grandkids is not an easy pill to swallow ;-((*

That gave me a lump in my throat in real life. I'm 40 right now and I can only imagine what my "heroes" will be up to in 20 or so years. On a lighter note, what kind of 5th wheel did you have, Topa? I'm in the market for an RV in the next year or so and I'm accumulating real world experience.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

*A*l, on an even more lighter note: There are a few fifth wheels on this site, they are in the fifth column drinking a fifth or two.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Al, We had a Forrest River Spinnaker. It is 31', 2 slides, almost 300 sq feet of living space opened up. Oak cabinets and floor. Free standing oak furniture. Washer/dryer. Very nice for extended travel. I could stand up straight in the bedroom over the bed of the truck. BTW, The house I was raised in was 596 sq feet.

We have a smaller, lighter toy hauler now. While I was OD on Topamax, rats got into it and destroyed the everything on the inside of the walls. Even ate through the hydraulic system that ran the slides. I asked the trailer repair place if it was common and where the rats came from as I had never seen them around. He said if you live near forest in Western WA, you have Norway rats! ;-((

My neighbor ask me not to spray the fence link on year because they wanted to plant something which they never did. They had a big clump of boxwood and bamboo near where the 5er was parked. I found a tunnel in the grass under the the chain link fence. If I had sprayed that spring and summer, they probably would have not attacked the 5er ;-((

I almost took the top off in OK City one day near teh Murrow Federal Building site. It was either Sat or Sunday, not much traffic. As I approached an over pass, I saw a sign that said 12' +/- clearance. Just before I got to it, I realized I was 13'+!!!!! It was a 4 or 5 lane street. My wife ask now what? I said this and made a U turn. Guess I would have been blocking one lane for a while if there had been a lot of traffic. ;-))


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

Topa,
You stated it. You turned down opportunities because you had different priorities. You didn't list a phone number for 20 years!
So, in your opinion, the people that did take advantages of business thrown at them, and listed their phone number to grow businesses, and become wealthy I might add, are evi in your thinking,l because you stuck your head in the sand.
Don't blame politicians for your bad luck. They affect everyone in different ways. You just have to (as the liberal site says) "Move On".
As far as googling my hero's, you will get opinions from the left, the right, the up and the down.
You'll only read the opinions of those that you have already made your mind up about.
Would you read an op-ed written by Bush the Hun? Of course not. You're convinced he's evil. 
But you provide a link to Bernie Sanders, who is an avowed radical Socialist and in lockstep with your thinking.

I'll take my independence, and street smarts and be successful every time, rather than have the government pay me, bribe me or hire me for my vote.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Topa, I'll have to check that guy out. Sounds like I'll need a dually. Wouldn't that be just terrible to go shopping for duallies A guy I bought some lumber from had a great toy hauler; I'll find out what kind it was. It was very small but had a full galley and a stand-up shower. It didn't "look" that expensive but you know how those things go. The rats made me think of a grand plan I aborted. I was going to buy a used Airstream and re-do it from the inside out. It was a project that I certainly didn't have time for, so I'm kind of happy it didn't materialize.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Jim, I did not have bad luck, I was defrauded by criminal acts and incompetence. Just because I didn't need 350 people to help me make a small fortune doesn't mean I did not get there. ;-))


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Al, Forrest River doesn't make the Spinnaker any more. I think they call their top of the line 5er Cardinal now, but I haven't really looked at them for several years now. I would bet they are at least 100k now. They weren't quite there yet in the late 90s ;-)) They depreciate fast when you move them off the lot. Seems like about 3x as bad as car or truck. I did not use a dually to pull it. I just did not want to deal with those wide wheel wells when I was not towing. It was about 15,000 pounds. I had it up to about 85 in Wyoming just to see how it handled. 18 wheelers blasting past like I was setting still!! Never had any problems with the 4 wheel F250 Powerstroke. Handled great in the wind, but I never hit any awning ripping off microbursts. I was in quartering wind doing about 50 where the wind was blowing a flag on my vehicle off to the side about 15 - 20 degrees. That wind had to be in the 60 to 70 mph range. Not driving for the faint of heart. I could pass the subcompacts going up hill until the grade got steeper than about 5-6 % ;-))

If you plan to do some long trips, get one that is set up for a washer dryer. Doing laundry one or 2 nights a week is a real pain. We just pop some in when we parked and took clean dry clothes out before we took off the next day.

BTW, stay away from class A diesel pushers. My little bro has be a long haul driver for many years. He sees the frames burned to the ground from coast to coast all along the freeways.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

David I hear you but an md should be well off once they pay all those student loans then they can pay that big mal practice insurance bill. I am a RN and had a bad fall at work I cant return to patient care because i cant stand as long as is required to work on the floor. I hate doing paperwork but that's what my job has become 80 percent of the day is spent on charts and med passes. we see our patients less every year relying on cna's to be our eyes. In the 20 years i have been a nurse my salary went from 12.00 to 55.00 an hour If I had fell in walmart I would be well off but with workers compensation tort reform I will get 20k for my settlement from a fall that left me with a fractured tail bone and 6 herniated disks. I make 20 grand in 2.5 months or less depending on overtime this tort reform is unfair and many workers are being screwed who are put on disability for a long time with my settlement I will pay 5k to attend a class on clnc consulting and will work with lawyers going after the drs i love and respect and the hospitals I hate for malpractice. this new job pays 150 an hour but since I cant work full time due to this fall ill likely work 3 to 4 hours a day and that will do fine for me I will try to sell some woodworking projects and will be able to rejoin the workforce. I hope I can do well as I am on lots of meds just to stand up.I don't know if this is even close to the topic of this thread but it was brought up so I thought id just go with it . I know we need to reform healthcare where a catheter costs 100 dollars is crazy and a pill that costs 5 bucks at the pharmacy is 1500 in the hospital I say bill for nursing hours ant pad the prices to ridiculous amounts. We do need reform every major intersection in town has a new drug store on a prime lot right on the corner they are making way to much profit at the cost of our seniors it is deplorable. I hope we get new leadership that can put an end to this craziness and can still restore our manufacturing base and our military must be the best in the world. can we save this beast or will we have to have a revolution to do it ?


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Think about it. The America I grew up and started my career in has gone away with the policies of the last 30 years. In 1980 we were the world's creditor, the world's manufacturer, the world's envy! Today those policies that have caused the end of the consumer based economy has sent jobs over seas, caused us to be the world's debtor and congratulated the majority of the wealth that was in the publicly traded securities in the top few % of the population. They are not hiring or spending, they are still exporting jobs and money;-((

I recently did a job for an East Indian. He told me he left the poverty of India to find a better life. He stopped here in the Seattle area in the 90s. He told me if he had known what was going to happen here, he would have stayed in Europe.

I think a resurgence of Germany is our best bet if Americans don't wake up real soon! The biggest risk is what kind of leadership will come out of the current developing populist movement? Last time we got FDR and flourished. Out of that same world wide Depression came Hitler, Stalin and Mussolini ;-((


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

Topa,
Now I can agree with you.
Different story from where you where earlier!


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Out of that same world wide Depression came Hitler, Stalin and Mussolini , Obama


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Jim, I have never changed my story. Bernie Sanders is just the opposite of the John Birch level of right wing propaganda we see here on a regular basis. We have shifted so far right in the last 30 years, Eisenhower and Nixon would be Ds today. don't believe me? Just look a teh public policies they supported. Neither wanted to do away with SS or balance the budget on the backs of the working poor through the payroll tax.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Listing Obama in the same sentence with Hitler, Stalin and Mussolini demonstrates a complete lack of intelligence and undermines any credibility yoiu may have had. Fascism is the control of the government by corporate appointees as invented and practiced by Mussolini. Today, the gov't, including the Supreme Court, is being bought and paid for by the corps. They recently ruled no accountability required and foreign corps and individuals can buy as many US politicians as they can afford.


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## ShaneA (Apr 15, 2011)

Yeah, including Obama in the same sentence as Hitler, Stalin and Mussolini is disturbing, on many levels. Very disturbing.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Fascists are against individualism in a free market economy. They want minimum wage laws, government restrictions on profit-making, progressive taxation of capital, and support secularism.

Sounds like Obama to me.

It should be disturbing ShaneA as he is our Commander in Chief.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

You might want to Google the word and see how the inventor instigated it in Italy. Note: When the War started to turn in favor of the Allies, Hitler was absolutely terrified the German people would desecrate his body the way the Italians had done to Mussolini. Who knows, the Occupiers may get their revenge yet ;-)) There isn't a lot of difference between the operation of a plutocracy, oligarchy or fascism. Glad I do not live in a gated community full of multimillion dollar houses!

BTW, the epitome of what is wrong with this country is on CBS 60 Minutes at this very moment on the West Coast; Jack Abramoff. He just indicated all teh members are corrupt at some level and nothing has changed since his heydays ;-((


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## ShaneA (Apr 15, 2011)

Come on now, the sensationalism is reaching a dangerous height. Hitler, Stalin, and Mussonllini were more of genocidal killers. Killling people because of politcal, religious, on ethnical differences. Men, women, children in an attempt at world domination. Killing by the tens of millions. Obama may have violated the constitution as you described the situation. However, there is a little bit of difference between that, and sending millions of people(children among them) to death in gas chambers or killing them because they share a different political belief. No one is perfect, the US and ALL of its presidents both Rep and Dem have done regrettable things. Everyone has, however, Obama has not tried to irradicate an entire race of people. Putting him in the same sentence as men who have, and trying to justify that comparison, should be beneath anyone. I know you guys hate him, but lets be reasonable here….Hitler? Have you lost your mind?


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## superstretch (Jan 10, 2011)

Hi


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## ShaneA (Apr 15, 2011)

Thats funny Dan, I just doubt any of the people comparing Obama to Hitler would be really proud to walk into their local Jewish center and spout forth such ideas. Would they leave the center thinking, yeah, I just showed them, or man, I really just made a great analogy? They understood and agreed with my great point?


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

WHAT DID I MISS I don't like Obama but haven't heard he was killing anyone man where was i the last president that killed innocent Americans was Clinton ruby ridge and Waco as I recall now if i have missed some type of murder other than that I would like to know where it happened.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Probably just more BS off Fox boobs.


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

That's cool, Dan. What about this one ?

Grimes' law (also known as Grimes' Rule of Weiner Mention is a humorous observation made by David Grimes in 2011 that has become a Lumberjock adage. It states: "As an online Lumberjocks discussion grows longer, the probability of first some mention of the Sawstop product followed very quickly by some mention of the word weiner (or hotdog, but frankfurter is also possible) approaches 1. In other words, Grimes observed that, given enough time, in any Lumberjock discussion-regardless of topic or scope-someone inevitably uses the word "Sawstop", then within a very short time their is inevitably a weiner joke.


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

Yeah, give Obama 4 more years and we may see a US citizen smoked by a drone on our very soil. Probably a US citizen involved in the drug cartels along the border states or something along those lines. He, too will be a POS that nobody cares about and deserves to do, but not without due process. Watch for this or something like it someday.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

topa your sounding like a donkey again are you now a left leaning liberal independent I am conservative I watch fox and I am not a boob. I am just sick of the liberal tilt on the news. I got tired of the bush bashing on the communist news network and so bad of coverage on network TV also with a liberal skew to the news I watch fox because it tilts right it gives me balance i know when they are spewing right leaning stuff but its refreshing compared to the liberal press and there lies.this thread asked who could lead us out of the mess we are in I have not seen many reply's to that question


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

You mean like the poor bastard they stuck with the anthrax attack when the only 2 people in Congress that could stop in invasive Homeland Security Act received the only letters, ever!? Is that the kind of executive snuffing you are suggesting will happen under Obummer?


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Sorry dude. I'm no liberal. I'm not a D. Fox is so damned out of touch with reality, into propaganda and political spin it is not worthy of any one's time. Neither are any of the 24 hour cable propaganda air time fillers; ie, MSNBC, CNN, ect. for that matter.

One of these days you will realize both sides are lying to you. Most of the personalities on those channels have become their own industries. They say anything they think their audience will suck up and believe. They do not say anything, even if it is true, that does not support their target audience's belief and basic ideology. Most people only watch people who will say what they already believe.

I don't bother with any of that BS. Not worth my time.


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## skywalker01 (May 19, 2009)

Herman Cain.


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

I was wondering.. since this is a woodworking forum and it seems that the purchasing of 'wood' stuff is one of those things that is depressed right now with people holding on to their cash. And there are probably more people here that either make a living or used to make a living off of woodworking, is this a more p*ssed off cross section of the population?

My folks always said: "In a poor economy if you're working it's a recession. If you not it's a depression".

Interesting statisitic: A usual good economy unemployment rate is 4.3% Current unemployment 9% avg. Of college grads the unemployment rate is 4.6%

I would guess some other types of forums might be happier?


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

I'm already getting Cain and Justice Clarence Thomas confused. ;=)


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

BTW, Sorry to hear of your tragic accident. You said earlier you are disabled. You have no business being a R. They want to do away with all entitlements which will include SS and disability.

Friends have told me I am more disabled than most people on it, but I choose to make my own way in the world. Maybe I sound like a liberal at times because I care about others. I suppose it is in my blood. My mother was an RN in home health. She and the others donated some of their pay to help out elderly patients who were eating dog and cat food because they could not afford anything else. She was instrumental in starting one of the first meals on wheels programs in the US.


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

Interesting observation:

Last year my wife and I took a trip around the country in a small teardrop trailer. Had a great time.. anyway. Several times at campsites we were sandwiched between $500,000 motor homes. Sometimes the number of them were between about 20 and 100 depending on the sized of the campground. Imagine a campground with upwards of fifty million dollars in motor homes in it! And they move on after awhile and more take their places. Somebody has cash.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*
Oh YES, we NEED a New President very VERY badly!

*
*
... and Our Country needs more education about Our Country.

*


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*Craftsman on the lake* Those who have run out of uneployment benefits no longer count as unemployeed. Self-employed contractors who are not working do not count either. The real rate is at least 20% and maybe closer to 25% if you consider everone who is looking for a job who used to have one in 2008 or has joined the labor market since.

We need about 200,000 jobs amonth to keep up with population growth. During the last decade we closed 50,000 manufacturing plants and lost at least 5,000,000 jobs ;-((


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*Craftsman on the lake* When we first started using and traveling in RVs in the early 70s, they were largely used by working class people. In the spring, I-5 was full of pickups with boats on top or campers pulling boats every Friday night. By the late 90s, we were paupers in a camp ground with a little $100k+ set up. The little people are in tents and those who do not care about the cost drive 3-4 mpg diesel pushers.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

*ShaneA* wrote:

"I just doubt any of the people comparing Obama to Hitler would be really proud to walk into their local Jewish center and spout forth such ideas."

Thank you, *Shane*.

I'm Jewish … and lost family in the Holocaust.

Godwin's Law, indeed.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

I think Topa has the answer for unemployment.
Let's keep bashing everyone who has the money that buy those diesel pushers. Come to think of it, those evil people that buy large boats and yachts should be brought to task also. Wait a minute. Lets not forget those Satan's that buy the big homes and mansions. And those rotten no-goods that purchase private aircraft.
We can destroy their wealth, then shut down all those business's and industries they bought from, and put the former employees into burger flipping, maid and cleaning work, landscaping and yard work. Then there are no jobs for hispanic minority.
So, we solve the immigration issue, move former skilled people into low paying service jobs, and bring down the middle class a couple of more notches.
Of course, since we destroyed the wealthy ones that bought those high priced items, there won't be any service work work available to provide the rich.
Oh and those former skilled employees that now do service work and toil the soil will union organize so their wages go way up, thereby destroying an industry that was a beginning step to a better life.

Topa, you have all the answers. Everyone should be equal. Destroy the upper class so no one has any incentive to try and get there. And in the process kill more industries and destroy more manufacturing jobs.
Yup, you are all wise and all knowing.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

Straw Man Argument


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

"incentive" lol JimC. What is that word? That's a dirty word, right? I knew of incentives in my youth (work hard at "x" and you will be rewarded with "y"); I know a lot about disincentives now (do nothing; get "y").


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Re Neil's strawman link:

"Examples

Straw man arguments often arise in public debates such as a (hypothetical) prohibition debate:
Person A: We should liberalize the laws on beer. Person B: No, any society with unrestricted access to intoxicants loses its work ethic and goes only for immediate gratification. 
The proposal was to relax laws on beer. Person B has exaggerated this to a position harder to defend, i.e., "unrestricted access to intoxicants".[1] It is a logical fallacy because Person A never made that claim. This example is also a slippery slope fallacy.

Another example:
*Person A: Our society should be taxed less. Person B: It is unjust to promote a society that neglects the poor. *
In this case, Person B has transformed Person A's position from "less taxation" to "neglecting the poor", which is easier for Person B to defeat."

This stuff fascinates me and thanks for the link, Neil. I'm no philosopher and I struggle with this stuff; although it still captivates me. It's like reading Nietzsche in that way. It's funny that the very example given on wikipedia (the one above, emphasis by me) has turned up multiple times on off-topic forums. It's like Person A posts….wait…for…it…there Person B goes! I recognized it but never recognized it as SO classic that it'd be used as an example.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

*Jim C :Topa, you have all the answers. Everyone should be equal. Destroy the upper class so no one has any incentive to try and get there. And in the process kill more industries and destroy more manufacturing jobs.*

This is what the left is all about in the simplest of terms. They want equality of results or outcomes.

It is a utopia that will never happen.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

RockyTopScott: see that link, I just posted.

Folks … you've gone WAY off the rails. Enjoy yourselves !


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

^LOL Neil! It might be straw, but it sure is entertaining!


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## GMman (Apr 11, 2008)

Why the hate towards Obama is it the color?


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Most threads veer off topic..why would anyone think this one would be different.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

^I can't speak for everyone here, but I'd hazard a guess that it has nothing to do with race. I'm from the deep, deep South and if my friends had an issue with his race, they wouldn't bite their tongues. This may sound racist or anti-racist, but I was looking forward to that little bit of style and swagger that all my African American friends seem to have The guy can really speak and he comes across as pretty "cool" to the kid in me. I don't know the guy; but I have a hard time believing he's the evil guy that some R's paint him to be. He's in a hamstrung position that I don't envy. I'm a Republican who can recognize that.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

It has abosutely nothing to do with Race.
It has to do with a non-experienced, community organizer with a radical agenda for America, of which the majority wants no part of.
His "hope and change" electioneering rhetoric was a guise for everyone's prosperity, but his subsequent election, and what he really has done are a disaster that will take many years to undo.
All he says now is his mission is to create jobs. He can't. Only businesses can create jobs, and he is a proven anti-bussiness solcialist.
Does that sound racist?


> ?


?


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

By the way I contributed to Herman Cain because of his vision and plans. And don't go there about his media made controversies as we can bring up almost everyones past history such as J. Kennedy, Johnson, Clinton, Edwards, Teddy Kennedy and on and on.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

I have dreamed of having Thomas Sowell as our president. He is now too old so that dream has past. It has nothing to do with race, in terms of myself, or anyone I know personally or professionaly.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Not me. He hasn't even delivered my pizza. So why would I trust such a guy to live in a house painted White?


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

We sure don't need a Right wingnut President like "W" that authorized/allowed the deployment of Blackwater Private Mercenary Army into New Orleans in 2005.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

Look who made this crap up.

*Common Dreams.org

*Who we are.

Common Dreams is a nonprofit, progressive, nonpartisan citizens' organization founded in 1997 by political activists Craig Brown and his late wife, Lina Newhouser.

We are a powerful online voice for change.

With millions of monthly readers around the world, we have become one of the most read progressive websites.

What we do.

We publish breaking news from a progressive perspective. And the latest ideas, opinions and in-depth analysis by some of the world's best progressive writers, thinkers and activists.

We use the latest technology to bring the progressive community together online.

Our community.

We are writers. Activists. Everyday citizens.

We are hundreds of thousands strong.

We are united by our common dreams of peace, social justice, equality and human rights.

We are energized by our passionate belief that these dreams should be within reach of everyone. Regardless of race, gender, or status.

We understand that to assure a meaningful participation by all in democracy we must maintain a free press - providing reliable information, critical thought and creative ideas.

Our mission.

To inform. To inspire. To ignite change for the common good.**

Nice try Mike. You're paranoid reading this junk. How many did Blackwater, kill, or injure in New Orleans?? I missed the headlines


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## ShaneA (Apr 15, 2011)

Wow cr, that seems a little harsh. What about trials, constitutional rights, they are american citizens? Really seems to counter your Obama as murderer point.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*
Oh NO, we don't need a New President... we need one that will continue to do this!

*

Don't we?

Really?

*NOT!!!*


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

*"Obama may have violated the constitution as you described the situation. However, there is a little bit of difference between that, and sending millions of people(children among them) to death in gas chambers or killing them because they share a different political belief."*

This is a little premature - *BUT* - his treatment towards Isreal and his catering to the other communities in the region is a clear indication that he does not care what happens to Isreal. *THIS* would constitute a propensity toward genacide of a race of people.

To me, I really don't care what race or religion a person is - if you are a good person - we can talk, discuss, etc… - if not, leave me alone.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

*"providing reliable information"*

Is there still such a thing?


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Sorry, Jim C, you are so biased and in denial or ignorant of the current situation you are not comprehending what I am saying. This is pointless when your response is to tell me what I think when I have never held those opinions and doubtfully ever will. Educate yourself and I have done. The America you built your business in is long gone. Until you and the others recognize we are in the final monopoly phase of the capitalist process and they own the whores in Congress and the courts lock, stock and barrel, we R screwed!! ;-((


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

I wonder why POTUS has such attitudes towards Israel?


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Al,
Do you mean like this? *;-)*


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

^I can't see the pic on this computer, Mike, but I can only imagine. Am I allowed to laugh, having not seen the picture; because I am


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## ShaneA (Apr 15, 2011)

Al, I think cringe is more appropriate. I am still amazed at who can become the president, both past and present. It was said on one of these forums, we get the the gov't we deserve. Apparently we all have been bad kids for quite some time : )


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

>>>cringe<<< in anticipation


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## ShaneA (Apr 15, 2011)

CR…True, I was waiting to ask you how they would enforce from the gunships. Baiting up the hook, see if you would bite, so to speak…


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

ShaneA, Winston Churchill once said when being interviewed "In America *anyone* can become President", to which he replied, "Yes, and that's usually the problem".
Gotta love Winnie


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*HorizM:*

At least he was truthful about it… That IS what he has advisors & staff for… to answer questions he may have.
... I don't see that as a "Deal Breaker"...

*
I still like this guy!

He speaks so clearly!

He knows to NOT speculate when he does NOT know all of the background about a given question or situation!

*


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## ShaneA (Apr 15, 2011)

Roger, they all scare me, past, present. and future. Just wanting to become president, should cause one to have their head examined  But hey, we alledgedly elected them all. So we got what we wanted/deserved.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Herman Cain did all that at an early age? He must have been born rich or had serious subsidies, right? He couldn't have actually worked for it, lol.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

*ShaneA*, I touched on a subject way back up the line of this thread about separating the job to Head of State and Head of Elected Government, having 2 different officials for the 2 different tasks, but it got lost in the political whirlwind.
Digging deeper into what Churchill actually meant was that *"1 anybody"* would hold a non political office and also a political office at the same time …...... how can this be? Can you see the error?


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Joe,
Don't forget to notice the "wink" re: the Bush clip.

But Herman Cain?!

I'll take my pizza with pepperonis, hold the sex… *;-)*
Slick Hermie?


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

Bertha:
*
"Herman Cain did all that at an early age? He must have been born rich or had serious subsidies, right? He couldn't have actually worked for it, lol."

*

I hope you're kidding… He DID it the old fashioned way… He worked his A$$ off to do it… 
He is a very Sharp-minded person. NOT the way our current president did it & is. LOL

*HMike..*. I'm not UP on those lil  thingys… Glad you were in gest… YES!


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

^of course I'm kidding, Joe. Old fashioned work is so old fashioned. lol.


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## superstretch (Jan 10, 2011)

Oh Bertha, you troll. ^_^

And this whole Cain fiasco smells fishy.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Cr1's got a thing for chain guns. I can respect that.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

The whole Cain thing….Notice that Gloria Allred is involved
Lets see.. "he is so inspirational - I was laid off for a month and flew to DC to meet him at a hotel and he propositioned me 14 year ago" "I only told my boyfriend and mentor because i was embarassed until I saw a $$ opportunity" "I hope Herman will do the right thing…."

Really???....WTF

we'll have to see how it really plays out and there certainly is more to come - I still like Herman but Gloria Allred is the Republican ball buster trolling for erection… i mean election coverage again.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Lol Allred, just lol.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Isn't that immediately disbarrable? Can you disclose client information sans a demonstrable risk to the public or self? Allred, what a joke. I've got more crap on my attorney than he has on me. That's why it works


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## skywalker01 (May 19, 2009)

Herman cain.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

These a-hos took down the world economy http://www.seattlepi.com/news/article/SEC-defends-285M-settlement-with-Citigroup-2256607.php?utm_source=WhatCountsEmail&utm_medium=PIMail:%20Business&utm_campaign=PIMail:%20Business


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

all this and not one answer to the real question who can lead this nation back to greatness or is it to late are we ruined are we doomed ? please stay on topic this is do we need a new president and if so who granted we have different leanings i haven't only one person who said the president should get 4 more years and no one else has said who will be able to lead this nation out of these troubled times. Yes we all know that employment is dead and we need industry to return to the us we all know what needs to happen to save the beast but who can make it happen?


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*thedude50:*
*
"all this and not one answer to the real question who can lead this nation back to greatness"

*

Where have you been?

*Herman Cain is the only one that can really DO IT!*

I still like this guy!

He speaks so clearly!

He knows to NOT speculate when he does NOT know all of the background about a given question or situation!

If you haven't LOOKED at him, you really should check him out!


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Simple, reverse the policies of the last 30 years of decline. Affluence tracks with labor union strength from the 1920s to 1970s, then the big decline starts in 1980 with stagnant wages for the majority and increasing poverty for many. With about 80% of the economy based on consumer spending and about 90% of the federal income based on taxes paid by those same people, this in not rocket science.

Before the uproar starts, Payroll taxes are paid by all the wages earners and very limited on the affluent who do pay more in income taxes, but it is only about 10% of the federal income.

Obummer is the best bet I see now. Any R will continue the same policies that lead us, U.S., into this decline at the pleasure of the corps and upper management who have amassed a fortune transferring most of the equity out of the public markets into their own private accounts. I owned 1000s of shares of these equities, what you saw in the financials was largely fraudulent. In 2001, I think it was, after the failure of Arthur Anderson Accounting involved in the Enron scam, Bush gave them 6 months to straighted out their financial reports or the CEOs were going to jail. I will end here as Bush the Dumber was just making an idle threat for the public show.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

BTW, I haven't had a class action notice in the last couple of months against management of securities issues I have owned for lying to drive stock prices up. Wonder if they ran up against the statute of limitations for fraud?


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

I want to know how you are using the quote feature i asked for this feature but don't see it are you just cutting and pasting the quote and adding the quote marks and making it bold.

Topa in long term history gw will not be seen as a buffoon he will be respected as the man that lead us through the terror attacks and then kept America safe for many years.

I cant believe Obummer is the answer he is a socialist and we are not we are a country where the hard working few make it and the smart get rich the dumb work menial jobs and that's fine with me I know we are in real trouble this is the worst depression in out lifetimes and unless we change coarse were going to sink

I don't want a pervert in the white house and I want a trustworthy man I after several days of reading am leaning toward Romney even though he is a Mormon


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

... Oh what an A__!
*
We need Herman Cain really BAD…

*

Our current dipsh….t MUST GO!!

*C'mon people… we can do it… we need more votes for Nov. 2012!*

Probably the most important time of our nation…

*(Nope…* The most important time of our nation was when some of the Ill Informed voted to elect our current president… * NOW, WE REALLY NEED someone very badly to take his place)*


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Even with 44% approval rating he is leading all the job exporters who want to run against him next year.

Looks like the 84% may be uniting finally to stop the push to return workers to the conditions of the 19th century ;-) SB5 down in OHIO!! http://www.cleveland.com/politics/index.ssf/2011/11/senate_bill_5_repeal_sets_tabl.html


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Foot Note: The story in the link tells how the Republican party has lost the police and fire fighters who traditionally support them. Like me, previously a party officer, will not be rejoining their ranks.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

Joe i cant find anything on his positions or plans. i read Romney's and think they are solid i don't like that he is a Mormon but no one is perfect i don't like that obummer is a Muslim either I want a wasp but i don't see a good one and Paul is too far out there for me.i don't know enough about Cain to me it seems like he is just a token black man to grab the black vote but that wont get him elected not now after the first black President was such a let down Harvard degree and all and still a buffoon. I watched all those videos that list was long but it shows Obummer is a dork a real Dork I will see who is left when the primary gets to California, but i don't know who will be left in the race by that time its a bad thing having our primary so late. i think we should move ours to be first screw Iowa their biggest city is smaller than the city i live in they are too few to hold so much power


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

The guy really with the balls and ABILITY to do the job isn't running - Chris Christy is the best guy for the job, but he said no.
Newt is the smartest guy there and would make a good architect for change.

I think the scandal will bring Cain down - his claim that he doesn't have* any idea* who this chick is….is troubling.
There is no good answer he can give, but just saying she is some troubled woman he never met in his life is going to backfire - she is going to have hotel receipts etc, where Cain got her the hotel upgrade. Or there will be a photo of them together at a fundraiser or tea party event.

She flew down to meet Herman in DC, from Chicago - to land a job - meet i a hotel for dinner and drinks and I suspect he was looking for a " happy ending" 
SHe refused and nothing happened.

I really don't get her position in this - he takes her to dinner and drinks and makes a pass at her which she turned down. WHen she wants Herman to "Do the right thing…..what is that exactly??" 
Gee in college I propositioned girls and was rejected too - - guess I am some serial harasser that cant escape my history??


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Dude, Newt and Cain are there to advertise for higher speaking fees. None of the others have much of a chance. It is Romney's to lose. I'm not sure the people of this country are ready to elect some one who believes he will become a god with his own kingdom to rule. He has the flip flop problem, especially on Romney Care vs Obama Care ;-)) On jobs, he made billions doing exactly what has torn this country apart under the current policies and tax laws. Buy companies, take them apart, selling off the assets and exporting jobs. When the people wake up, we could see D domination for a long time. That scares me as much as the Rs continuing the disaster they prepared over the last 30 years. The first 20, I kept thinking this is as far as they will go, but they kept going & going until we find ourselves in a 2nd Great Depression ;-((


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Topa do you really think the people would support a hedge fund manager - in the OWS wake? (Romney)

Then for Barry:
October 21 USA Today
New free trade agreements with South Korea, Panama and Colombia are official.
President Obama signed them this morning-so we're told.

I think I hear more of that Giant Sucking Sound Perot warned us of.

Aftershock 2nd edition is a good read so far - only on Chapter 3 but focus is on the US sovereign debt bubble.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

We are already and have been in …
*... a 2nd Great Depression*

Herman Cain is the only one with the KNOW HOW to get it done… starting at the bottom levels getting what is needed to grow upward! ... While working from the Top, Down… He can and Will do it.


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## skywalker01 (May 19, 2009)

Herman Cain and I add
http://www.hermancain.com
Read up


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

joe I know you like Cain but what are his positions om major items like a jobs plan a stand on abortion the right to die medical marijuana a balanced budget restoring industry manufact6uring domestic goods besides cars. where is the plan I dont see it if you do tell me where I can see his plan

Topa the republicans haven't been in power anywhere close to 30 years that argument doesn't hold water the problem ist republican caused it is not a political problem its a business problem maybe the guy that replaced Greenspan caused this or maybe it was the success of the 911 attacks

Dr managing hedge funds is legal it isn't popular but that was a long time ago i believe. I don't see anyone else to do the job that has a real plan that makes since. if you do who is it and where can i read his or her plan Sadly sarah Palin had a good Plan and she isnt running but she is still young. When is the first primary do we still have time to find the right man or is Joe right Cain is the right guy

I would like to see McCain run again like a do over or Giuliani as he is a good leader i dont know if Obama gets reelected will this country survive or will we have a revolution If Obummer wins some crazy dude will Waste him and if the dude is white we will have race wars in the street

the blacks call Cain an Oreo an Uncle Tom because he is successful but that is whats wrong with the blacks they don't show respect unless your success is with a ball in your hand the values of the black culture are wrong I don't know which candidate will be left by the time the ca primary is here but that's when i will decide for sure

I want a Regan type leader that's what I want someone to save this country that may mean we need an older guy Like McCain


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*Topa do you really think the people would support a hedge fund manager - in the OWS wake? (Romney)*

Not if they knew the truth, but teh media is good a repeating lies until they are accepted as fact ;-((

*New free trade agreements with South Korea, Panama and Colombia are official.
President Obama signed them this morning-so we're told.*

Clinton sold us down the tube first ;-(( I'm not sure why nearly every Congress person supported these. My guess is they are all corporate whores as Jack Abramoff said Sunday night on CBS 60 Minutes. He even admitted he was so crooked he hated himself!

*Sorry about saying "find ourselves in a 2nd Great Depression." Should have been "found."*


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Dude, You are not a millionaire. You have no business being a Republican. They are stabbing you in the back. They want your disability stopped. Those kinds of entitlements along with police, firemen and teachers salaries and pensions are what is breaking this country. Don't believe me? Look at SB5 in Ohio.

Reaganomics and de-regulation of the financial institutions and markets has been the center piece of all the administrations since about 1978ish. From the end of WWII until then, the economic markets were relatively stable. The results of loosing those regulations that was supposed to stop another Great Depression is we have one now. The first stop was the boom/bubbles in the late 80s and the S&L disaster. It has been one roller coaster ride ever since with the taxpayers getting stuck with bigger and bigger bail outs.

The Rs may have not been in total control, but some one got to Clinton and told him to play ball and be a millionaire after office or be a pauper. The bastard has no moral values so of course he chose the latter.

The real frosting on the cake for the scumbags in the financial markets and institutions was the superseding of all fraud statutes in the various states in the Commodity Modernization Act of 2000. It was merely the final nail in our coffin. It legalized the high stakes gambling losses we bailed out when Bush the dumbest was leaving office. It is quite ironic the crash came before the door hit him in the ass on the way out.

Someone made mention he is very smart. Hardly, barely able to get through college with daddy's money on his side. The classic under achiever that turned everything he touched in his life to crap including this country ;-((


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Obama has passed a Christmas tree tax. Isn't this a civil rights violation - targeting a specific religious activity. item or event.
Thats like taxing a Mezuzah from the jewish faith or anything from any religion.

My head hurts.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

That has to be a secular tax. Everything Christian has been banned from public view in favor of political correctness and all the clowns that have invaded us, U.S. Funny how they want to come here to get a chunk of what the Christian principles have built; then, trash it bringing the SH they came from with them :-((


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

The commercialisation, maybe. The tree as a symbol predates the country - if I remember correctly. Anyway, your not gonna believe this anyway:

"The Obama administration has imposed a 15-cent tax on Christmas trees in order to pay for a new board tasked with promoting the Christmas tree industry. ..."

Creating a tax on Christmas trees to promote Christmas trees.

Now I have a headache -I guess we need an SUV tax to promote SUVs
Didn't he say that lobbiests were not going to run his administration?????


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Not for those who escaped the oppression and corruption of the Vatican, one s is correct.


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Double post-sorry


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

Perhaps not surprisingly, characterizing it as a "Christmas Tree Tax" doesn't tell the story


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Thanks Neil, BS abounds in high quantity! I just did a quick google to see if it was happening. I should have looked into it a bit more. Hardly an Obama Grinch movement as the growers voted to put it on themselves.


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Let me get this straight - The wholle thing is now sidelined-BUT-The growers of trees have asked for a tax that the The Department of Agriculture will collect to use for advertising for the growers - that the President is to sign as law?

This is getting better by the moment-

A few years ago under Clinton, the government was pushing artificial trees due to all of the house fires because people are stupid. Oh, how much is the government charging to manage the tax collection? If it is anything like the IRS, the growers will owe $5.00 a tree for the management fee for the 15 cents.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Can't you read? The growers voted for it to promote real trees. they will revisited it in 3 years. Sorry you Obama bashers lost another bunch of propaganda.

On another note, looks like SB5 in Ohio was a landslide something like 66/34%. This most like sets up Obama as the next president of the US; definitely his too loose. All the low info voters voted for change after Bush, Rs blocked it, they voted in Tea Baggers who attacked the workers as the problem. The voters have wised up;-)) I'm am sure Snott Walker in Wisconsin will loose his recall ;-))


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Topa, Re SB5

OH…Snap! *;-)*

And a very BIG **


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*thedude50:*

*joe I know you like Cain but what are his positions om major items like a jobs plan a stand on abortion the right to die medical marijuana a balanced budget restoring industry manufact6uring domestic goods besides cars. where is the plan I dont see it if you do tell me where I can see his plan*

First of all, if you would listen to all of his speeches & read his website, you might learn something about him.

He will get people working…

*Abortion..*. Quite honestly *I am just plain SICK SICK SICK of hearing the CRAP about Abortions!!
Let the States do it for themselves… is what I would like… I'm just sick of the subject PERIOD.*
I understand that Cain is very strongly Pro Life.but, when it's a life/death situation for the Mother or baby, he's for leaving it up to the Family to handle it… I really don't care about it!

*Medical Marijuana! * To me, it's just an excuse to legalize it with a bunch of mumbo jumbo. *I really think it should be legalized… It's no big deal… no more than getting high on alcohol… blown out of proportion. I say legalize it… BUT, I really don't give a crap what they do about it.* It would save a lot of Tail Chasing trying to enforce current laws… ergo MONEY.
I don't know what Herman Cain thinks about it… minor issue… *He's after the BIG stuff.*

Budget n all that stuff… again, listen to ALL of his speeches… go to his website and read.

*He is on the right track on getting us back on track…*

*He will get the job done!*

*He REALLY WILL!*


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Interesting study I stumbled across http://perdurabo10.tripod.com/id1048.html


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## crank49 (Apr 7, 2010)

Yes, Topo, I can agree with that "study", up to where it starts claiming geographic location has anything to do with IQs. Smartest person I ever worked with was an atheist, socialist, communist and from Belgium. He spoke 3 languages fluently, and could communicate in 2 more. He held multiple dergees in math, physics and chemistry, and a Phd in metallurgy. BUT, put a wrench in his hand and he wouldn't know which end was the handle. He knew we were 180 degrees apart on politics, but he respected me for my other abilities. Probably didn't hurt that my IQ was over 150, but I didn't have all the degrees. Still, he was the technical vice president of the company I worked for and he would come to me for advice on practical applications and creative, outside of the box ideas. I did eventually go back to school and have my degree now.

My point is you can't lump people into categories. We all need to realize that all people are individuals and we all have our strengths and weaknesses. Our beliefs are just that; our beliefs. I'm not going to change yours and you probably are not going to change mine. We can, however learn from each other and help one another.

I don't think it's a big secret that I'm a conservative, but I don't think all liberals are idiots. I would hope that would work both ways. I will admit that I have a very hard time understanding how anyone would think the present administration is doing anything good for the country, the economy, or any other metric you wish to measure. I do know everyone has a right in this country to have their own opinion

A little jewish friend of mine sent me a picture of a billboard he got in Alabama the other day. The message on the billboard was:
"If you voted in 2008 for our current president to prove that you were not a racist, please vote for anyone else in 2012 to prove that you are not an idiot."


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Topo-
My comment is not an Obama bash (this time) - it is questioning common sense. I am a tax payer and I have a big issue with having the federal government collecting revenues to be used for advertising for the private sector - regarless of who is asking for it. THIS is a complete and total waste of my tax dollars AND (which I am sure you already know) what costs a $1.00 to do in the private sector the federal government will spend $100-1000 to do the same thing AND screw it up. It is a government thing, always has been.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

*dbray*: I actually don't have a position on that, but have to wonder what you think of the Department of Commerce, generally ?

Do you think it's an inherently bad idea, an inherently good idea, or that there are certain types of business/industry for which you do think it's taxpayer $$ well spent ?


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

The Dept of Commerce was designed to regulate the commerce between the states and internationally, this includes the laws for transporting via trucking, railroads, waterways, and even private automobile, etc… from state to state and country to country. This is why the Coast Guard came under this department - to protect the commerce of the United States of America eliminating the requirement for individual states to guard its water borders. It also gathers information about the economy at a national and state to state level.

This is required for the transportation of goods including the non transportation of goods like green lumber that could be infested accross state and international borders - just ask the folks in Hawaii about their cute little tree frogs that some person donated to the islands - one chirpping is cute, 1.5 million of them is ear shattering.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

*David*: But … what of … the thing that it has become ?

From its website:

"The Commerce Department's mission is to help make American businesses more innovative at home and more competitive abroad.

Comprised of 12 different agencies responsible for everything from weather forecasts to patent protection, the Commerce Department touches the lives of Americans every day."

Seems like a long way from Point A to Point B, no ?


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Apparently the growers voted to do the tax on themselves to fund the program.

The biggest problem I have with the tax code is 280 major corps paying nothing while I pay property taxes to support the airport they land their private jets on ;-((


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*cr1:*

*YES… *and it probably would cost the growers a whole lot more with the Government acting as an Advertising Agent…

*If the growers went directly to an Advertising Agent*, selecting bids & programs from a variety of agencies, they would probably get BETTER ADVERTING at a BETTER PRICE!

*Why can't the Government SEE THAT?!*


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Neil all of the departments have moved away from their "founding Principles"

Dept of Energy was founded under carter to solve the dependance on foreign oil.
Their current focus is electrical efficiency and banning incandescent lightbulbs. True that is based on energy, but only 1% of ELECTRICITY is from foreign oil - and that is mostly rural areas without infrastructure or pipelines that have a diesel generator for the town. Most of the country is Coal, Hydroelectric, Nuclear, Natural Gas (which is domestic), wind and solar, geothermal etc.
How far has DOE brought us on Energy independance since 1978? Sure they have been busy, and not everything is bad…. ut that CORE mission is gone.
Autos and Trucks are where they could have a big impact on foreign oil dependance….but that is Department of Transportation working on CAFE standards, not DOE.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Or drug shortages and actions by the FDA, but they are more focused with nutritional labling than with food safety.. oh wait a large part of the food supply - is actually USDA, Oh the USDA handles Food stamps and the WIC program (Women Infants and Children) not Health and Human Service or HUD.

This is why government is so expensive. Everyone does a little of this and a little of that so there is overlap and duplication. Also makes it easier to game the system since you have the left hand at one agency doesn't know what the other agency is already providing to a citizen or company.

The Obamacare law is largely codified under the Internal Revenue Service not HHS.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Topa you mention the Ohio Union bill and the indicators being positive for an Obama re-election.

To the original post - is that likely a good thing?
Are we on a good path?
Is Obama really a leader adn do we want to follow where he wants to go?

I don't see where he has had Holder investigate Wall Street.
What is better now? Is the new 447 Billion stimulus really going to be magically better than the first one?

Sure I lean hard right but there isn't anyone I am really EXCITED about. But Feel we need OFF the path we are presently on. Be dancing naked in the streets had we gotten a Chris Christy/Marco Rubio ticket. He is the one out there that I think would actually work on spending.
I like Cain, but don't think he could get congress to back what are going to be difficulty spending cuts.

Last time we CUT spending - was either 1950 or 53 - - everything else was "reducing the rate of growth" never any actual cutting.

Maybe a primary challenge would be good (99.999% unlikely though) I think Hillary would have been a much better president than McCain or Obama - Clintons understood what made the economy grow and worked on welfare reform. Sure many disliked it some loved it but it was *actually addressed*, and working *with *congress (Newt) they got us on track for the deficit. I''d love to get back to those days.


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## skywalker01 (May 19, 2009)

More good stuff to read and think about. I listened to his radio show in Atlanta for years and he would make an amazing pres. Read up to find out!

http://www.caintruth.com


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

I heard him on the radio… I could hear the sincereness in his speech.

That Lie detecting software is really something else! Never heard of anything like it before!
It sure did a job here didn't it?

*Herman Cain was so cool… He's our man…!*

Thank you, Luke, for that post… really good stuff!


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Neil - no argument here - the idea that the govt is supposed to provide everything is nuts. When I was a contractor, the idea was that if it could be provided from the private sector, it must be done from private sector. Not anymore.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Oh boy, I was with y'all up to the lie detecting software, lol. Let's be honest, fellas, how many times have you witnessed "sexual advances" in the workplace? We won't even bother with defining "sexual advances". Womenfolk and sensitive types cover your eyes, redirect your mouse, but I don't really care if he made sexual advances. He's a dude. I mean, consider the bar set by previous White House occupants. Anyone who'd willingly allow themselves to be strapped to a lie detector is a fool proper. You can't control being unwillingly analyzed by "lie detector" software (huge lol) but for goodness sakes, don't even acknowledge it; either ignore it or quickly dismiss it as quackery. I'm pretty good with Cain right now. The lumps don't bother me a bit.


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## Sac (Jun 14, 2008)

I wasn't aware we had a leader in the Washington DC?


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Lie detector software - Please. Any lie detector is a waste of time. For the right people, good and bad, the device will false detect or not detect, software to do something that is not actually conntected and actively monitoring about 300 points is a waste of time and event thing, they are a point in time event. This is why they are not admisable in court.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

I had the cops "box" me once for fun. I ended up lying about where I was born, my age, and my gender; despite being pretty sure of my answers, lol


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I would just like to see some one who gives a damn about the people of this country instead of nothing but money, money, money for the bastards that destroyed the whole country.

One note of GWB, I had some Qwest stock about the time the SoB destroyed the company because they would not illegally wire tap all their customers. really too bad Obummer thought he could be a great uniter and did not want to prosecute the war crimes of the previous administration in the Hauge. I don't recall teh source, but there were mentions Bush would not be an international traveler after office because of international arrest warrants that would most likely be used in many countries.

Everyone here seems to know all about the damn corps and politicians, but no one seems to have any real personal impacts to cite but me. Where the hell do you guys live anyway?


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Yes Topa we know Bush personally ruined your life.

I think you should sue him or attempt a citizen's arrest.

Let us know how that works out for you.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

You gotta be kidding! Who said my life was ruined? I merely pointed the negative impacts experienced due to fraud and malpractice. Teabaggers want to blame the victims. I am one of the few that are capable of handing these issues. One expample from the past is being appointed to the Air Force Academy in CO Springs, alternate to Annapolis and offered the appointment to the Merchant Marice Academy. How's that for letters to 1 Representative and 2 Senators? One of the biggest problems with this country is MENSA. Not enough people qualified.

The Clinton/Bush the dumber years are the epitome of what is wrong with America. There is no one out there that would make a pimple on the ass of Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln or Jackson. Well, there are, but they are not in public office.

What do you right wing Teabaggers plan do do about the 25% unemployment? Bring back jobs is BS, How?


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## mtenterprises (Jan 10, 2011)

Gentlemen
I know and understand well what is being discussed here. Most of this past afternoon I spent reading the comments on this post and biting my tongue keeping from commenting one way or the other. But just minutes ago I watched, on Netflix, the American Experience film - Civilian Conservation Corps by Robert Stone. What an eye opener. Yes we need a good strong president and yes programs and policies in this country need to be changed. But a program like this would bring much back to this country that has been lost. This was a true "Work Fare Program", $30 a month $25 went home to your family, you worked hard for that small amount but you got 3 square meals a day were taught how to work with others and to take pride in yourself and what you were doing. My father spoke fondly of his service in the C.C.C. first enlisting in June of 1933 serving to September of 1933 being honorably discharged. In October of 1935 he reenlisted became an assistant leader and stayed on as a truck driver until March of 1937 again being honorably discharged. I can now see the type of service he did and how he tried to instill in me the qualities he learned there. Gentlemen just changing the man in the office will probably not change this country much but changing the attitudes of the younger people of this country will go much further as it did with those who joined the C.C.C. I invite you to watch this film open-mindedly and compare where we are today to what it was like then, the economic condition, the employment condition, the attitude of the people then ask yourselves what does this country really need. I will not say which party I am affiliated with and I don't really care which party does it but this country needs to change, the people, their attitudes, the president and all of our other leaders need to change to make this country great again.
MIKE


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

*Topa : Everyone here seems to know all about the damn corps and politicians, but no one seems to have any real personal impacts to cite but me.*

I think Topa you should sit down and make a list of everything you own and use that was produced by one of those evil bastardly "corps" and sell it and/ or stop using it and see how good your life is.

Give it all up. Show all the bad bad corps that you don't need them. Let them know you are done with them and eliminate everything associated with them from your life.

It is obvious you see them all as useless and corrupt. I don't understand how you can rant endlessly about the way these corps have destroyed this country with their greed and selfishness and yet continue to use their products and services.

Go ahead and show them whose boss. Hit them where it hurts. Stop being their customer and bring them to their knees. Make them suffer. Just do it.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Mike, That is precisely what I am talking about, basic values and both political parties have sold us, U.S., out to big money boys, both foreign and domestic.

Sorry Rocky, there is no comprehension and total denial the the country I grew up and worked in post WWII is being destroyed. No point to continue. I cannot debate ignorance and denial of basic fact. Probably the first thing that needs to be resolved is most of us, U.S., being so damn greedy, arrogant and selfish.

I have long been a casual observer of human behavior and intelligence and a student of history. There are 3 natural states of mankind through out history; preparing for war, war and recovering from war. In the nuclear age with super power standoff and colonial independence post WWII, hot wars have more or less given away to economic war and monopoly empire building. The archaeological evidence points to ******************** sapiens capacity for unjustified violence as the root cause of our current condition.

Should we survive the end of the Mayan Calendar and the overwhelming climate changes in process, I predict nothing will change, the cycles will continue unless the intelligence of the populace increases at least 30%. There is no scientific basis for this, just a lifetime of observation and the casual nature most take when addressing life altering issues and the limited recoveries most are able to accomplish.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*mtenterprises:

Gentlemen
I know and understand well what is being discussed here. Most of this past afternoon I spent reading the comments on this post and biting my tongue keeping from commenting one way or the other. But just minutes ago I watched, on Netflix, the American Experience film - Civilian Conservation Corps by Robert Stone. What an eye opener.*

We watched that this evening with dinner… Amazing how close we are to the same situation… not quite as bad, but very close.

I learned a lot about the CCC… the finer points that didn't know before… My FIL worked in the CCC and it changed his life also.

The times are almost the same… We are a lot better off today than then… but everything else is very close.

Today, our President wants to put people to work, just like the CCC, in fixing roads (that might work if the EPA can keep their noses out of it), building & fixing bridges (all of the EPA crap that must be executed and Planning Approvals would delay Starting many YEARS… Not 3 months). We have something in place today that WAS NOT present Back Then… The EPA & other Regulations that must be met before lifting a finger.

That has been a major point of what we should do before we can expect to accomplish anything very soon…
Knock OUT a bunch of EPA & other Regulations of RED TAPE where the objective is to DELAY any and ALL work as LONG AS POSSIBLE!

If we cannot do that, we will not be able to do anything close to the CCC…

I'd like to see us DRILL FOR OIL & GAS… everywhere we can… Right Now! Without any RED TAPE…
Instead of CCC, it would be O&G! In addition to that, convert ALL of OUR automobile & truck engines from gasoline & Diesel to Natural Gas! Stopping the import of ANY OIL!

That would be a HUGE step in solving a lot of our problems…


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Yeah, lets return to the choking smog we had 30 years a go and turn the US into one massive superfund site like China is racing towards. There are quality of life issues more important than the almighty dollar.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

*the cycles will continue unless the intelligence of the populace increases at least 30%. *

We're all doomed.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

*There is no scientific basis for this,
*

Yep Topa, you and I can sure agree on this statement.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*We do NOT need the bureaucratic rat hole incompetent EPA to keep clean air emissions under control!*

*Natural gas burns cleaner *than Gasoline or Diesel…
... and we have PLENTY of it readily available! * DUH…??*


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I think my flamboyant style of writing goes very well with the other extremist views being presented ;-)) There is really little point of continuing here from my perspective. I'm and independent, middle ground, recovering Republican. Most everyone here with opposing views take the positions of the Teabaggers. They are heading back into teh conditions of the 19th century if they get there way, but last Tuesday's election indicates the 84% that largely share my views will begin to retake the country next year.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Topa, sir, please refresh me on your "middle ground" perspective cause I must have been away when those ideas were shared.

I' ll hang up and listen.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Over 2/3 of the people agree with the following statements:

Tax Fairness - A Progressive Tax on the Koch Bros. and their top 2% buddies.

No corporate welfare - end the tax subsidies and write-offs.

Protect Social Security.

Protect Medicare.

Stop Outsourcing American jobs and punish those who do with higher taxes;

Clean energy and environmental protection;

No illegal wiretapping/Patriot Act "big government".

End the ridiculous "war on drugs" by starting with legalized marijuana. All Prohibition did in the 20s was begat the crime wave of the 30s and what we have now it totally beyond control or comprehension.

Public financing of campaigns and clean elections with voter verifiable paper trails and no "voter i.d." disenfranchisement.

A right to health care.

A right to a free, quality public education.

A right to self defense.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

Show me where you get that information.

I don't remember voting for any of the stuff in a Poll, etc.

Who took the Poll?

Where is the POLL?


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Thom Hartman and Norman Goldman talk about various polls a lot. They will never admit the vast majority support their Second Amendment rights. Michael Medved cites a lot of polls too but he will never admit teh people support all of those issues either.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

Give me LINKS… SHOW ME!


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

FYI, $30 in 1930 is worth a tidy sum today(2010)

=DOLLAR&use[]=GDPDEFLATION&use[]=VCB&use[]=UNSKILLED&use[]=MANCOMP&use[]=NOMGDPCP&use[]=NOMINALGDP&year_source=1930&amount=30&year_result=2011]Current data is only available till 2010. In 2010, the relative worth of $30.00 from 1930 is:

$392.00 using the Consumer Price Index
$326.00 using the GDP deflator
$1,190.00 using the unskilled wage
$1,510.00 using the Production Worker Compensation
$1,900.00 using the nominal GDP per capita
$4,780.00 using the relative share of GDP

And yet to far RIGHT still bitches about folks getting the relatively low amounts of unemployment as being too high. Hail,...I'd work a CCC job for $2-5,000/month.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I listen to the radio while working and driving. The polls cited by these guys are Gallup, Newsweek or other nationally recognized pollsters. I do not have any links but those are the sources.

Out and about fiddling with wood ect this afternoon. I was thinking about this a bit wondering if any one of the regular participants here has been a volunteer fireman, Community Emergency Response Team member or other long term community service volunteer. I did Little League and Scouts ect, but only when my own kids were doing it so I don't really count that.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

topa:

All heresay…


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Mike, Morningstar has always said the inflation rate is at least 1% higher teh the official rate used by teh liars in the gov't to keep make the poor poorer.

A friend of mine who works at a major manufacturer who move headquarters a few years ago told me they had a bonuses based on stock price in their contract instead of wage increase. The stock was down during the period of employee bonuses. Later in the year, the company released good news and the price went up substantially when teh management bonus based on stock price was calculated. Funny how that happens, eh? ;-((


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Joe SAID: That has been a major point of what we should do before we can expect to accomplish anything very soon… Knock OUT a bunch of EPA & other Regulations of RED TAPE where the objective is to DELAY any and ALL work as LONG AS POSSIBLE! 
If we cannot do that, we will not be able to do anything close to the CCC…

The way I look at it Joe is that YOU are just wanting to LAY OFF Americans who work for the EPA. Any CCC type jobs created under the proposed plan would/should ACTUALLY increase jobs in the EPA in order to keep up with demand. This would result from the synergistic growth in jobs related to the CCC-type jobs/projects. And to my understanding THAT was the prime purpose of the CCC IN THE FIRST PLACE!

*QUESTION:* So why are you so adamant about destroying jobs Joe?

UPDATED Analogy: That sure seems like the RIGHT trying to destroy ObamaCare so that YOU can also destroy any *Healthcare jobs* that ObamaCare, AKA Healthcare Reform, will/could create. Rather Bass-Ackwards if you ask me.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

topa you had me for a couple of lines then you lost me. I dont think we can give healthcare to everyone why the hell would one become a dr to give it away for free no a dr is a dr for the money just lie me i am a nurse for the money and i wont work for free it is already a thankless job that most wouldn't do if they were smart enough to pass the boards. Obama care has not produced 1 job instead we import nurses from India and the Philippines with poor comprehension of English and a stab you in the back mentality


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Dude,
Have you really stopped to think about the Big picture of healthcare? Just a quick search reveals:

Peter Wald, director of wellness for San Antonio-based financial services company USAA, said,* "it's much cheaper to keep people healthy than it is to take care of them when they're sick. * The way for us to control costs is to keep people healthy. We're doing a full court press." 

Or is it more important to make insane amounts of $$$ off of peoples' illnesses, accidents, and pain? No one is talking about a system of being perpetually free for patients and no one is expecting doctors to work for free either, but what you are suggesting sounds rather vampire-ish to say the least.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*HorizM:*

1. The CCC got good constructive projects done that Helped our country and were true ASSETS.

2. The EPA, for the most part, has run out of true constructive things to do and is more of a LIABILITY THAN AN ASSET! They are nothing but a RED TAPE DELAY Machine… Any decisions that the CCC would have wanted to do, would have been in Impact Studies for years before any decisions would have been made… The CCC with our current EPA would NOT have worked… it couldn't have come close to working… Without the EPA, they started in 3 months!
THAT IS MY EPA POINT!

3. If ANY job in our Government cannot pull it's weight and generate a true ASSET, the job is NOT required and should be removed! A job should NOT be a JOB for a JOB's sake… It should be a Job to accomplish something that truly NEEDS to be done! Even if it's picking up trash along the sides of our highways!

4. I am NOT adamant about destroying jobs! I am adamant about destroying USELESS WASTEFUL MEANINGLESS JOBS!

5. I am in favor of jobs that result in something positive that is an ASSET to our country. I am in favor of jobs Drilling for Natural Gas and Oil wherever it may be in our country… Those jobs would create more productive jobs for truck drivers and other industries. ALL being useful meaningful jobs! BUT, the EPA roadblock must be removed before ANYTHING can be done!

6. Jobs to build new bridges and maintain old bridges cannot be STARTED in months… YEARS because of the EPA!

7. Any Jobs created to make Obamacare work would cost BILLIONS to do NOTHING PRODUCTIVE… they would just be more sink-hole jobs for Job's sake… Costing Businesses expenses that could easily put them out of business so that ObamaCare could endup with Obama's Socialist Medical Care NOT being paid for by businesses… Obamacare would endup to be a bottomless waste pit!


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

*Over 2/3 of the people agree with the following statements:

Tax Fairness - A Progressive Tax on the Koch Bros. and their top 2% buddies.

No corporate welfare - end the tax subsidies and write-offs.

Protect Social Security.

Protect Medicare.

Stop Outsourcing American jobs and punish those who do with higher taxes;

Clean energy and environmental protection;

No illegal wiretapping/Patriot Act "big government".

End the ridiculous "war on drugs" by starting with legalized marijuana. All Prohibition did in the 20s was begat the crime wave of the 30s and what we have now it totally beyond control or comprehension.

Public financing of campaigns and clean elections with voter verifiable paper trails and no "voter i.d." disenfranchisement.

A right to health care.

A right to a free, quality public education.

A right to self defense.*

I'll just say that with only a few minor stipulations I would agree to every item on Topa's list. And guess what ? I don't care if he made up the list himself. Jeez, if he did, then two points for thinking for himself.

What's with all the requirement of quotes and sources in order to even consider what anybody says ? Say what you think, instead of the constant "where did you get your quote / data, etc."

Just don't make me watch the guy that says the justice system is based on who is the most persuasive. Hell, I knew that crap as a 6 year old watching original black and white Perry Mason re-runs in the '60's.

So the way it works here is similar : Whoever has the greatest number of reliable sources on an issue makes their point correct and irrefutable ?


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Dude, I do not think the majority support giving health care or anything else away. Since the majority of the hospitals and other providers have moved from non-profit to for profit, it has been a disaster. 30% of the bankruptcies in the country are because of health care costs due to a major illness with most of those people being insured!! The only cause ranking higher is he 50% due to single women being abandon by deadbeat dads.

The biggest problem with Obama care was the doing away with a public option and requiring every one to purchase health insurance from the scammers in the insurance industry. They had to do that to get it past teh Rs. If it is modified by teh Rs and they say they will if they get the chance, yoiu can bet everything will go but the requirement to purchase over priced, under insured policies that are a one way street for long Yankee green to insurance companies CEO and upper management compensation packages. Medicare has a 3 or 4% administrative cost while the insurance companies run 30% and up. There incentive is to deny claims not get people well. The more people they help teh lower their profit and CEO bonuses.

Companies like United Health care that compensated Dollar Bill McGuire with $1.74 BILLION as CEO are at the root of the problem. Malpractice insurance premiums are a scam in my opinion. I had a good solid case that that I should have been able to at least be reimbursed for my lost wages, 3 years of serious recovery and cash out of pocket expenses. No attorney would take it. Where are all the guys who file frivolous cases running up the costs? The clowns I had the misfortune of finding in medicine need to be removed to protect others from their disastrous level of incompetence.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Obamacare will bever create jobs, it will never lower healthcare cost, it will never increase the health status of citizens.

I have worked in healthcare for almost 35 years and Obamacare will not do any of the things it claims to do.

It will cost jobs and make healthcare more expensive.

The CBO says it will cost 800,000 jobs. Before it ends it will be alot more than that.

The law is nothing more than a government grab on a huge part of the economy and people's lives.

Socialist at it's core.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

*@Rocky*-If everything is supposedly BAD because YOU claim it to be Socialist then why in my thread earlier did *you keep insisting on Govt giveaways* for taking your kid(s) to private schools such the ones you referenced: Catholic Schools, schools for Homosexuality, and schools for Atheists (post #203 HERE)?

*@Joe* SAID: 2. The EPA, for the most part, has run out of true constructive things to do and is more of a LIABILITY THAN AN ASSET! 
So *Clean Air* is NOT an asset?
So *Clean Water to drink* is NOT an asset?
I could go on, but you get the idea…

*@Joe* also SAID: 7. Any Jobs created to make Obamacare work would cost BILLIONS to do NOTHING PRODUCTIVE
I guess you like to ignore that those jobs produce income for those workers that go back into the economy to buy/pay for all sorts of things such as, but NOT limited to: *their OWN healthcare*, their own housing, their own food, their own transportation, their own needed and discretionary consumables, etc. In OTHER WORDS, these additional ObamaCare workers become self-sustaining citizens of America. How could ANY republican settle for THAT? (sarcasm intended)

*@David*-I am pretty much with you and Topa on the above list though I am puzzled at your criticism of inserting links to sources. While I am sure some folks such as yourself already *"know everything"* from watching Perry Mason re-runs, some folks don't have such an indepth knowledge base. And it is THOSE folks who may need assistance in finding those Perry Mason re-runs. *;-)*


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

This country has moved so far right in the last 30 years, just forget the word socialist until the R party is will to care about anything besides moving money to the top few % including privatizing SS for the Wall Street Leaches, destroying all worker's rights, and moving the country back to the 19th century.

Example: Bush the dumbest and his co conspirators passed a law requiring the Post Office to fund 75 years of worker's pension and health care benefits in the next 10 years. The PO would be profitable right now if it were not for these 6.5 BILLION Dollar annual payments. The obvious goal here is to destroy the largest public employee union. No one has ever been required to fund benefits for workers yet to be born in the history of benefit programs.

We see the Teabagger governors in WN and OH using the same tactics. OH's SB5 went down in a landslide by 2/3 last Tuesday. Those traditional R voters are joining me in leaving the R party never to return. Once again, my predictions were about a decade or 2 ahead of the the curve; ie, predicting this economic disaster and teh end of employment in the US in the late 80s.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Mike, you are an idiot, I never supported what you are implying in Post #203.

This is word twisting extordinaire.

Those are examples for illustrative purposes. Just examples. I can continue to tell you that but I can't make you understand it. Sorry.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Rocky, is this where you compare me to "Hitler"? And as far as Post #203 in LumberFauxx News Thread, that *IS what YOU said*.

Hey Joe and others, this *Strawman* and *non-sequitur* arguing is FUN! * NOW I know why you republicans like to use it so much!*


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Mike

You ain't smart enough to be der fuehrer.


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

@HMike, The criticism is not of posting links / sources, but the posting of links and the bashing of the links and the bashing of the bashing of the links. Its like a diversion, so that it strays from the point that in most cases can be made by simply saying, "I think we should…" or "I believe" and debating the merits of the thought… not the source or their thoughts.

Maybe I'm wrong and the intent is not discussion among adults. If it's "education" and persuasion, then I apologize and stand corrected.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

Please stop the name calling it is not productive if your a democrat and support Obama then say that if not say that but petty name calling it not appropriate.


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## wseand (Jan 27, 2010)

You all drive me insane. Not that its a far drive. Someone asks a question you all jump on your political band wagons not even coming close to answering the question. I couldn't give two Shts about all your problems. This guy was asking for some direction and input. You all babble on like politicians with no real answers or advice. Shame on all of you for acting like those you all seems to despise. Seriously Lumberjocks as politicians, we would get the same results only with more WW shows.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

@David: The criticism is not of posting links / sources, but the posting of links and the bashing of the links and the bashing of the bashing of the links. Its like a diversion, so that it strays from the point that in most cases can be made by simply saying, "I think we should…" or "I believe" and debating the merits of the thought… not the source or their thoughts.

Very true. The only issue I have is one of having been on the receiving end of these diversionary tactics from select individuals long enough that I have finally realized that to NOT respond to those select individuals "In Kind" is tantamount to bringing a knife to a gunfight. Unfortunately, one's opponent selects the weapon of choice by their actions and NOT by some formal guidelines.

Presidential politics is ripe with this type of polarized banter. The DEMs have long been accused of being the weak "Why can't we all just get along…" party by the REPs who have a history of using any and every tactic in the book to win an argument (Strawman and non-sequitur being among their favorites). However, NOW that the DEMs have awaken enough to more thoroughly recognize this, the DEMs are starting to return "In Kind" by also utilizing those tactics. and now…

IMO, when my opposing party, the REPs get a taste of their own medicine (in Presidential politics), they are either invoking some version of Godwin's Law or going all Rodney King with their own cries of "Why can't we all just get along…" And that is MY Democrat Opinion.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

mike if you believe that it is cheaper your being naive to keep a diabetic alive for 40 years.when we dint have treatment people didn't now they were diabetic till they were spilling sugar in their urine. this is a late state of the illness indeed,they live a short life and died very cheep. now we keep them alive for several decades on expensive drugs that the drug companies make a huge profit on for no real reason other than greed. it is not cheaper to prevent illness it is the right thing to do but cheaper only a fool would believe that lie. why has healthcare cost risen ill tell you it is early detection the more we find early the more we spend keeping the sick alive and hopefully productive till they are of no use to society any longer then we stick our loved ones in kennels not fit for a dog under the guise of it being a skilled nursing home the fact being no one cares for the elderly any more this is better i don't think so and o bummer care is just more of the same ******************** more early detection for the sake of drug treatment never a cure in sight why a cure would stop the gravy train


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Cr1…sorry I must respectfully disagree with you, to some extent.

Yes those things you mention have some small part of the increase in cost, the overwhelming cause is our lifestyles.

The acceleration of chronic diseases driven by smoking, obesity, lack of exercise, poor diet, stress and not understanding how to manage the root causes for each are the culprits. Americans have become fat, lazy and complacent.

Cost shifting (government), technology, new drugs/ therapies and the such are costly responses to the root causes.

The continued reduction in personal responsibility and expecting someone else to "fix" what one has broken also adds to the cost.

We are negligent in taking care of ourselves.

.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Uncomplicated childbirth in the 1950 was a little bit cheaper than today, but not by much. 
*~$7420 VS $9600*
And there is much more preventive care today before birth than 60yr ago.

In 2010, the relative worth of $150.00 from 1950 is:

$1,360.00 using the Consumer Price Index
$1,140.00 using the GDP deflator
$2,120.00 using the unskilled wage
$2,560.00 using the Production Worker Compensation
$3,630.00 using the nominal GDP per capita
$7,420.00 using the relative share of GDP










UPDATED: ObamaCare is the effort to return us to approximately the norms we used to have back in the 1950s, IMO. And that is that back then is was not as difficult to obtain insurance and to be covered for such things as childbirth. Now the insurance companies, working in cahoots with companies/corporations, eliminate/fire employees who MIGHT be an insurance burden/risk. And THEN everything for that fired employee becomes a "Pre-Existing Condition" that will NEVER be covered again in the lifetime of that individual.

What does that mean? It means that insurance companies/corporations want you to die if you become TOO sick (to their profits).


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Mike, Where do you get the inflationary comparison calculations? I electricians in Seattle were equitably adjusted of inflation based on the $6 hour I made about 1972, the total cost per year would be about $100 by my calcs. What do you come up with?


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Here you go Topa,
http://www.measuringworth.com/uscompare/

In 2010, the relative worth of $6.00 from 1972 is:

$31.30 using the Consumer Price Index
$25.00 using the GDP deflator
$28.80 using the unskilled wage

*$34.60 using the Production Worker Compensation* I am thinking this might be relevant for electrician's hourly wage plus benefits

$47.70 using the nominal GDP per capita
$70.40 using the relative share of GDP


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Mike,your chart is quite nifty, so now we see how much is charged via your chart, try to find out how much is paid for a " normal birth".

Here is a clue, you are looking for a DRG or case rate negotiated amount.

It won't be near what is charged.

Where can I find it in Obamacare that brings us back to 1950 norms, approximately?

BTW, I have read alot of the act,I don't recall seeing this. Enlighten me.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

We were making about $30/ hr in the early 80s before Reagan declared class warfare. It took until the mid 90s to get back to even. Trades people are not production workers.

In the mid 70s, I calculated $50/ hr in the early 90's using about 3 or 4 % inflation.

This just goes to show you they are screwing us worse than I thought ;-))

CBS 60 Minutes just ran an insider trading story about Congress. Of course, they expempted themselves from the laws that apply to everyone else, are in denial and do not believe they did anything wrong. Seems to be a difference of opinion here. I don't believe they have done anything right ;-((


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

*Rocky: Mike,your chart is quite nifty, so now we see how much is charged via your chart, try to find out how much is paid for a " normal birth".*

Most of us, I know I did, come into this world through a *hospital vaginal birth with no complications* and THAT is what we Democrats call a normal birth and THAT is clearly labeled on the chart above. Are you referring to some second (#2) kind of birth? Were you one of these #2 babies you're talking about?
And the method of birth, an equivalent to your DRG, is the x-axis of the chart. Please pay attention Rocky.

*Rocky: Where can I find it in Obamacare that brings us back to 1950 norms, approximately?*

Just re-read my post and look for the word/acronym following the comma at the end of "1950s" in the statement you are questioning. The acronym follows THAT comma and looks like this "IMO". It means "In My Opinion". Surely you aren't going to try and tell me that my Opinion is NOT my opinion, are you? Now THAT would be a new one… LOL!


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

that was a nice chart mike but pregnancy is not a disease it has early detection and birth can easily be done at home we do it in hospitals for Profit. It was a cleaver shift away from healthcare increases thousands are now having their children at home with a midwife it just makes since and then if your high risk a hospital may be called for but still no new science in childbirth push push pop. we have done this since the beginning of the human race 
now look at a cancer patient or a frail diabetic or any of a thousand disease patients early detection means years of life saving high expense care. it is not cheaper than late detection and is the quality of life better you will have to ask the guy on his third series of chemo therapy and again while all this is great banter it doesn't answer the original question even liberals are sic of Obummer and his robbing of America I would have a non issue with many democrats but not this one this one has killed the American dream.

Topa before Regan was the 2nd worse President we have ever had Carter. I served under Mr Peanut and he was a Joke as commander in chief.After 3 full years of Obummer It is clear the only thing he is good at is campaigning. he has done nothing good for me I was by far better off under GWB the great and even under Clinton the womanizer if a man cant even be loyal to his wife he is not a great man he is a lowlife

you know i take it back Obummer has one saving grace he murdered Osamma with out a trial and unarmed i guess he didn't trust holder to do his job just like the other terrorists have seen no trial and this from the guy that called water boarding a crime I wanted to see a real trial and a firing squad but at least he killed that bastard law of the land aside oh ya on another nations land humm makes you wonder if you safe don't it


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

So Dude, you seem to be advocating nothing less than Soylent Green from Death Camps for the sick. So is THIS your idea for job creation?


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Jimmy was a decent human being, that is more than one can say for most of the others that have been in the White House during most of my adult life. He didn't understand how wicked WA, DC really is. He thought just doing the right thing would carry the day, but none of the leeches were making any money doing that.

Under Slick Willy, you had the dot com boom. It didn't really mater who was there, it was a technology advance, not a political issue. Ending teh protections enacted after the Great Depression just guaranteed there would be a big bust and there was ;-((

Obummer did get Osama, which Reagan, Bush, Clinton and Bush the dumber should have done. A friend who is East Indian told me their intelligence has been telling us, US, to forget the caves in Afghanistan, he is i'm a palace in Pakistan for years. Bush took an oh hum attitude. Without Osama, we don't need Bush the dumbest to protect us and he had nothing else to offer. Cheney would not have been able to channel GILLIONS to Haliburton without him. There was really no reason for Bush the dumber to get him.


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

@HMike, Logan's Run end game was a better alternative to Soylentation of the masses, don't you think ? Better to go out smiling in the company of your friends than to pedal your lightbulb lit 'til you just can't do it anymore. ;=)

Since the will to stay alive is what it is, many of us will spend (from our estates and/or through the private or government health care system(s) available to us) great sums at the end of our lives to stay alive a bit longer. Advances in medicine are not 100% infallible, but you sure don't hear of physicians saying "I'm sorry, there's nothing more we can / should do except make him/her as pain free and comfortable as possible".

On that note, I kind of feel sorry (in an economically futile way) for the future of the personal estates, then when that runs out, the insurance companies and/or government having to pay all that on a cumulative, worsening and never-ending basis. It's a bigger drain on families, society and government than Social Security (or will be certainly).


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

*Dude: that was a nice chart mike but pregnancy is not a disease *

Following the sub-topic of the cost of ObamaCare, I responded to CR1's example given in Post #261(below) that was in itself a response to YOUR concern about rising healthcare.

*@CR1 Post #261: …I have a Bill from a hospital in the 1950s for a live birth with all the trimmings. The total dollars owed was $150. They didn't have a gozillion tests and all the layers of doctors of every imaginable specialty all checking in and incurring their fees… *

But Dude, 
I have to question YOUR position that pregnancy is NOT a disease. If pregnancy is NOT a disease then *why does the Republican Far-Right treat the pregnancy of Hispanic Immigrants as such a disease (by creating/attacking the illegal immigration issue so harshly) when it is these SAME Rich Republicans that use these low wage immigrant/families FAR MORE than any other employer group in America?*


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

@David,
I think that Dude is advocating Soylent Green for the un-agreeing masses while he, himself, runs much like Logan, wanting to be the personal *exception to the rule*.

*;-)*


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

I'm pretty sure that SPAM is Soylent Green.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)




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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

2022 is only 10 more years. I think we wil make it. The corpo pigs and Rs seem to be a bit ahead of schedule.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Nice. *Treet* yourself today.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

*What a revelation:*
You mean that GOP is not another planet ruled by Cain the Merciless whose arch enemy is Flash Barrack from the Milky Way. sigh ….... my dreams are shattered.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

*CR1*: I gotta say mikey, you can be really bizarre sometimes.

You taught me well…


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

*You think that every lawn mower business is a GOP front?*
I would like to point out that my lawnmower thread has nothing to do with my party affiliation


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

AH, yes Al, but what color is your lawn mower?


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Ah Hah, Rex! Green and Yellow; but that was a safe gamble you made.
My next mower will be red, in keeping with my way of thinking about lawn mowing conspiracies


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

What about one of these Al. http://www.husqvarna.com/us/homeowner/press/husqvarna-launches-automower-color-collection/


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

A stump is still an outie, right ? ;=)


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Yeah, David, whatever floats your deck.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

^LOL, I live in West Virginia. If one of those made its way onto my yard, it'd make it into a neighbor's scope glass.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Well folks, that's about it for this interesting thread. Our thanks to Mike, cr1, Topa, Rocky and Joe for their opinions and for providing sufficient reading material links so that we all have something to read over Christmas.
Our thanks too for other minor contributors who failed to go the distance - better luck next time when this threat will again be debated in another thread posted on Fly Fishing.
Thanks for watching.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

Oh, come on, *Al*. TELL me your mower doesn't pull to the right ;-)


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

thanks for defending me in my absence I must say mike you must have done too much lsd in the 60 70 and 80 s if you think i want death camps you got to be kidding its your beloved barrack that put death panels into his healthcare plan not a republican i always liked you mike but that ******************** is just sick I am one of the people who cares for the sick did it over 25 years and you have the balls to accuse me of that your one sick puppy


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

"its your beloved barrack that put death panels"

Translation: groups whose primary function is to use evidence-based medicine to make our health care policies optimally effective, at the most efficient price.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Reality -
An unelected group of beltway beaurocrats will enter the age, gender and race of the patient into a spreadsheet along with a diagnosis, and then get a red light of a green light from their Excel formula regarding some US Government AVERAGE on life expectancy and tell you "sorry the hip replacement is not cost effective, if it broke 6 months ago it would have been fully covered, have some tylenol"

But yes it will be evidence based

lest you really think this panel would really be doing this on a case by case basis

There are 70 year olds that make 50 year olds look weak and pathetic.
There are 45 year olds that are just about to keel over.

This panel is all but guaranteed to ignore those issues and make blanket diangnosis'


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

DrDirt: I wonder how people can truly believe that the exact same process isn't what's being used, now ?

The only difference being … the motive is profit, first, and wellness, second.

It's a question of faith: who do you believe has your best interests in mind.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

^I can't in good faith comment on how the "panels" would operate; I simply don't know enough about it to discuss it coherently. However, I have a lot of experience with governmental quasi "healthcare". One such experience would be with vital statistics, a very important element of evidence-based medicine, whether we like it or not. Vital Statistics is clearly operated by the methods that DrDirt describes. There are a couple of very intelligent, very capable high-ups there, but the data is so badly compromised by the time it gets to them, that it's rendered useless. A doc can spend an inordinate amount of time constructing an informative death certificate, only to have it reduced to unusable form by a government "coding specialist". I won't list the qualifications for the position; I encourage looking into it, though.

With all respect, I'm curious Neil, who would comprise the "groups" you mention? Would these groups be made up of leading physicians in varied subspecialties? Would they be doing this pro bono? Like I said, I don't have a strong opinion secondary to general topical ignorance. I'm trying to figure it out like everyone else.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

*who do you believe has your best interests in mind.*

My Mom and my fiance'. Everyone else is suspect.
OK, maybe my dog


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

*Al*:

I think you can pull together people from such organizations as the Harvard School of Public Health, along with business people, financial analysts, and statisticians.

And medical people, of course.

Again: it's rather naive to think that pretty much EVERY hospital and health insurance company doesn't have the exact same function, now.

The composition of the groups would likely mirror the composition of the groups doing the same function, now, in the for-profit sector. The only difference would be their mandate. Rather than EPS being the prime mover, the mandate-as I said-would be enhanced wellness, decreased disease, at the lowest possible cost.

Here's my take, and THIS IS "opinion."

There's no money in healthy people, right now.
There's no money in dead people, right now (*Al*, notwithstanding-grin)
All the money is in the middle.

That's a fundamental free-market failure, in economic terms. The interests of the players are badly mis-aligned.

Patients genuinely want better health. Industry players seek to maximize profits.

And-in the scheme of market failures-the AMA limits med school grads, forcing artificial scarcity into the doc market. It's very screwed up, at so many levels…..


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

Uh … Steak is largely a PURELY animalistic narcissist.

And I wouldn't blame him a bit ;-)


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

neil you are right - Insurance companies deny claims.

Question is How will the lone government panel be an improvement?

Least *you could fight insurance companies *-
Read the bill - the decisions of the Government board are "Not subject to legal review"

They make their decision and go home. Zero accountability - - in general you cannot sue the government so it is completely unaccountable to the people, much like the supreme court operates


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

I have a relative that has prostate cancer - he is not eligible for treatment because of his age - over 70 or something. They will, I guess, give him the drugs to manage the pain he goes through every day. This decision is based upon the statistics of how long he IS going to live not how long he could live if he were given the appropriate treatment.

This IS reality of the current system - IT WILL get worse because IT IS COST BASED HEALTHCARE.
Under OBAMA CARE, it is not illegal to get treated BUT it will be illegal for a doctor to give you treatment outside of the system. You do the math.

Neil - your healthcare at work.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

DrDirt: we're getting into a gray area, IMHO.

I've had to fight the insurance companies on NUMEROUS occasions-each time, with the VEHEMENT support of my treating physicians.

Lost every time.

We're in leap of faith territory, here. I tend to believe that the profit motive creates an "economic pressure" toward denial, with insurance companies, while I tend to believe that those pressures could be lessened if the objectives were less about pure $$$.

Again, though, I'll be the first to admit that …. I don't have that crystal ball.

I also would NOT be supportive of something that could NOT be challenged, in this regard, if that IS what's being proposed.

Part of the problem is pretty simple: the gold standard in medicine is the Randomized Controlled, Double-Blind, Multi-center Clinical Test.

But the outcome of that-at best-is that a treated group got better (statistically) than an untreated group. As you alluded to, it does NOT guarantee individual outcomes.

As with so many things, it is FAR from perfect, but-at the moment-it IS the best we have. I would hope that-contrary to MY experiences with the for-profit insurance companies-there WOULD be some "case by case" evaluation, where it can reasonably be concluded that X DID improve the health outcome in a given patient, and that payment WOULD be made.

Stats are stats. I studied them, and applied them, often and wisely, in past work lives, but … I'm aware of their limitations, and would hope that national policy would take those limitations into consideration, too.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

David: those are predictions. You may be right, you may be wrong.

I don't have that crystal ball.


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Neil - this has nothing to do with me or you and there are no predictions about my relative - FACT - he IS in a lot of pain and they WILL NOT treat the cancer. It is now a question of whether his age, the cancer, or the pain killers kill him. The way the medical report will read, and will bet a dollar on this, "Natural causes."

The premise that this is a prediction, I cannot and will not buy. The fact is that this will get worse is a given, if you don't believe that as fact, I am deeply sorry and you have been mislead at the highest levels. I do not believe in conspirousy theories, and I do not believe in chance. I have observed a long string of events that add up to disturbing scenarios. If you do not see this, consider the following as a small sample:

All medical records will be required to be kept on government systems (this is in process)

The salaries of doctors will be regulated per government doctrine (they already are for the most part) the insurance company tells them what they can charge, Medicade and Medicare are even tighter controlled for what Dr.s can charge.

As doctors leave, they won't be able to pay their bills, the government will accelerate the education process

I remember a time not too long ago that nurses could NOT prescribe medicine - they do now and their training is not that of a medical doctor. And this has nothing against anybody personally in what they can and cannot do - this is an industry thing per se.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

David:

You wrote:

"This IS reality of the current system - IT WILL get worse because IT IS COST BASED HEALTHCARE."

This is a prediction; not a fact.

"The premise that this is a prediction, I cannot and will not buy."

Okay. No point continuing this particular discussion with you, then


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

The Independent Payment Advisory Board, or IPAB, is a United States Government agency created in 2010 by sections 3403 and 10320 of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act which has the explicit task of reducing the rate of growth in Medicare without affecting coverage or quality.[1]

*Under previous law, changes to Medicare reimbursement rates were recommended by MedPAC but required an act of congress to take effect, but the new system devolves responsibility to IPAB with congress being given the power to overrule the agency's decisions*

This change is bothersome - where in the past there needed to be wider support to change medicare funding in a bipartisan way.

Now the board changes the rules at its discretion….and those are the law of the land unless tou can convince your congressman to take up your case and carry it forward to the presidents desk.

I think that it was easier and a HIGHER chance of success arguing with insurance companies - than needing an act of congress to overrule an unelected board with ZERO accounability to the people.

Just a tin foil paranoid - but I don't like *Special Ominipotent panels *being created


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Well Dude, from what I have read on this thread about DENIAL of care (Death Camps), then I would have to conclude that the *creation of DEATH CAMPS, falls as:*

*Insurance Corporations = Tens (hundreds?) of thousands* of death camp sentences by these Corporate Insurance Death Panels because of various reasons of "cost analysis/efficiency".

*ObamaCare = ZERO*, unless it gets gutted by the republikans

FWIW, it sure looks like, IMO, that @Neil and David (and even Dirt, indirectly) have the existence of your Corporate Death Camps interpreted rather accurately. And you call ME sick… So does that also mean you want to send ME to one of your death camps as well? *;-)*

If god can't do it by throwing me off a 20ft ladder and throwing deer (twice) in front of my Harley (total rib/back fractures ~32-35 and counting), then why do YOU think you are more powerful as well as more authorized than this god to sentence ME to such a Death Camp sentence? Hmm…


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Mike 
Maybe god is just sending you subtle hints to change your ways ;-) rather than just smiting you outright.

More seriously though 
ObamaCare = ZERO, unless it gets gutted by the republikans

You are saying that Obamacare will fully cover every single claim and there will never be a denial?
Otherwise how do you get to "ZERO"


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

"In their minds they see themselves as properly entitled to make the decisions about who lives and who dies based solely on criteria which they invent."

Absolutely equally true of the insurance companies, who currently ration health care.

There's only so far you can take appeals after the insurers deny you, too.

Like so many things … it's not that simple. Just reading YOUR quote of Krugman, I don't see him "blaming" Obama's health care reform, either-rather-as an economist might-saying that there may need to be draconian measures taken, at some point, TO reign in health care costs.

I'd advocate a paradigm shift, FROM disease management TO preventive medicine.

But that's just me.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

I chose MSNBC as a source - government moving breast cancer screening from 40 to 50 -
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33973665/ns/health-cancer/t/new-mammogram-guidelines-raise-questions/

"This is one screening test I recommend unequivocally, and would recommend to any woman 40 and over," the society's chief medical officer, Dr. Otis Brawley, said in a statement.

The task force advice is based on its conclusion that screening 1,300 women in their 50s to save one life is worth it, but that screening 1,900 women in their 40s to save a life is not, Brawley wrote.

That stance "is essentially telling women that mammography at age 40 to 49 saves lives, just not enough of them," he said. The cancer society feels the benefits outweigh the harms for women in both groups.So Blue Cross covers mamograms at 40…. what does Obamacare propose?
I believe the American Cancer Society - though they may not be impartial, they have nothing to gain financially from breast cancer screening, any more than they benefit from their anti tobacco campaign.

Or Cancer drugs like avastin - rescinding aproval because of cost
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/07/opinion/07thu2.html
The unaddressed issue, however, is whether public and private insurance should continue to pay the staggeringly high cost - reaching $88,000 and $93,000 in some cases - for drugs that offer modest help to the typical patient. A prime driver of our escalating health care costs is the advance of medical technology and the understandable desire of patients and doctors to adopt the latest treatment.
F.D.A. recommended rescinding approval for use of Avastin in breast cancer. The final decision will be made by the F.D.A. commissioner.

So certainly cost is going to be part of any organizations decision making whether it be Blue Cross or Obamas appoined panel? This is my OPINION but a monopoly decision is rarely a good thing.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

See page 13 form this *link.*

60% of employees are covered under a self-insured health plan which means the EMPLOYER (Plan Sponsor) determines the coverage level, not the INSURANCE COMPANY.

Now if you are discussing individual policies, these are insured and the insurance company decides the level of coverage and terms. It is a contract as cr1 indicates and can be adjudicated in a court of law.

All insured policies are regulated by the state insurance commissioner's office as well as the rates associated with these plans require their approval.

Profit data for health insurance companies always lags about a year or so behind. *Commercial insurers experienced a median 1.1% pretax profit as a percent of premium in 2009.*

How many of you would like a woodworking business where you make on average a 1.1% profit? If you had sales of $1 million dollars annually could you live on $11,000 a year?


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

Scott-

Commercial insurance wouldn't really apply, here. It generally refers to things like business liability insurance.

As to the courts … yeah … because David usually beats Goliath, where Goliath is the $BN insurance company with unlimited legal resources, and the "threat" of a "prevailing party" clause, where losing (as opposed to being right or wrong) means you pay the other guy's exorbitant costs and fees.

That's sarcasm, by the way. Apologies for resorting to it, but … I think the notion that justice is available to us all, equally, is disingenuous, at best.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Neil, the term "commercial" is also used in health insurance to distinguish it from Medicare,Medicaid and FEP.

Primarily this is employer and/or union sponsored.

Look at the link, it only is related to health benefits (medical insurance) not P&C (business liability, casualty, theft, loss of income, patent protection, etc etc etc)

In terms of David v Goliath, in my last job we (small private company) sued one of the largest (11+ billion market cap) health carriers in the world and won. It all has to do with the merits of the case.

I am for loser pay as well.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

"It all has to do with the merits of the case."

Yeah. Don't I wish…..

I can't conclude what you conclude, from that article. While the article DOES talk a LOT about health care premiums, the quote about the profit margins of commercial insurers is-at least-ambiguous.

A quick look shows …. significantly higher margins, among health insurance providers:

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=CI+Key+Statistics

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=AET+Key+Statistics

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=WLP+Key+Statistics

It doesn't appear, then, that the 1.1% figure refers to your average health insurance company.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

Being for "loser pay-" IMHO-is like being for capital punishment, in the sense that … it relies on a perfect system, in order to NOT result in grievous miscarriages of justice.

We don't live in that world.

I don't want to dissuade average people with legitimate claims from filing lawsuits, on the basis that the lawsuit, itself, can-and probably will-bankrupt them.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Surely you don't find 4% to 7% profits excessive?


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

I don't remember that being a topic for discussion.

Nor could I answer your question, directly. It depends on how those profits are made.

I don't happen to think having a healthy and educated population should be for-profit ventures, but … that's just me.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

There you go Beener, the ABSOLUTE TRUTH about where America needs to go regarding healthcare and education. I would only add to that that our VOTES should not be privatized/for-profit either. And THAT is a real problem with the Republikans trying to require photo IDs, restricted voting windows, etc. What's next Poll Taxes to keep the poor from voting?


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

I say requiring everyone to own property and pay federal income tax would be more effective at keeping the poor from voting. But you may be on to somethng here Mike.

I think having a requirement of passing a basic math and English test would help too.

While we are at it, let's require everyone to name all 57 states.

Keep the ideas coming Mike.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Rocky SAID: I think having a requirement of *passing a basic math* and English *test would help too*.

Well good Ol' Republikan Presidential Candidate Newt boinked his Math teacher while in high school. Does THAT count?






How about Newt running up a 1/2 Million $$$ debt (credit?) at Tiffany's… Does that one count too? Never mind that was on a much LATER wife, and NOT the Math teacher wife (she was TWO wives before) he dumped AFTER she paid for his college education.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

Ce1 two million is chump change when a major trauma occurs my own hospital bill for 14 day stay including dr tests mri ct xray the works was 600k i am cooed if i get worse


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

when the constitution was written mike you had to be a land owner to vote I think proving your an American is just fine today. maybe WE CAN REQUIRE AN IQ TEST TO BE SURE YOUR SMART ENOUGH TO FILL OUT THE BALLOT.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

*What is really the problem with requiring an ID to vote.*

Who other than illegals - has absolutely NO Form of ID in the 21st century?

Even those poor welfare recipients - the dems CLAIM to protect by blocking these ID Laws….have ID, they got benefits, and have somehow for decades been able to cash benefits checks.
I agree that not everyone has a drivers license - but suspect that is pretty rare.
Requiring everyone prduce some form of ID is not an undue burden.

The people who shout that "Requiring ID to vote is Racist" make a red herring argument…. and a really pathetic one at that


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

*The cancer society feels the benefits outweigh the harms for women in both groups.*
What is the "harm" in mammography? Someone please illuminate me.

I'd love to enter this discussion but it's too depressing for me today.

Except to say, regarding the pain management of a metastatic prostate cancer patient, it would really depend upon the jurisdiction. Assuming your lucky enough to have a medical examiner with an MD, rather than an elected coroner with a GED, they would either certify it as 1) natural, 2) accident, 3) suicide, or 4) undetermined. If the medications were all prescribed for an established diagnosis, I think most MEs would call it natural; a consequence of treatment for a natural disease process. Some would call it an accident. A few might even reach for suicide.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Al - haven't read the whole report but part of the harm they show is the dose of X-rays from the test
Sure there is more, a lot about follow up testing and false positives etc (not sure the actual harm there).

But government proponents feel that it is undue stress to be worried about a follow up test…so we should just put our collective heads in the sand and not test early.

The report is also ADVISING AGAINST women doing self exams - so ladies "Don't even bother feeling for lumps or unusual growts - - just wait for the scan at age 50" 
Because $$$ women might find something and schedule$$ a biopsy$$ but Nooooo they aren't death panels.

So begins the Government cost controls…..Blue Cross supports mammograms at 40
So who is really pushing denying care?

Yet still say with a straight face that Prevention and Early Diagnosis is important….LOL


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

Hmm.

http://www.cancer.org/Cancer/BreastCancer/DetailedGuide/breast-cancer-detection


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

What's the point of the link Neil ? - we know the cancer society says start at 40….

I support their position that the latest imaging and early detection can save lives and early enough prevent Massectomy.

Our GOVERNMENT panels out for cost cutting say STOP self exams and Stop early detection….
Yet claims that the Insurance Corps are evil?


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

American Cancer Society recommendations for early breast cancer detection:
Women age 40 and older should have a screening mammogram every year and should continue to do so for as long as they are in good health.

Correct. I also, as a hobbyiest woodworker, recommend yearly mammos starting at 40. Family history? Talk to your doc and start early. I did an MPH in preventative medicine and I'm sensitive to all this nonsense. I am also interested in preventing elder abuse, which encompases failure to treat IMHO. The real answer is that the "harm" is the cost and burden on the system. Very slippery stuff.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

It doesn't seem that the ACS is … "ADVISING AGAINST women doing self exams"

Does it ?


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

It also doesn't seem that the current government guidelines … recommend against breast self-exams:

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001993.htm


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

How would self-exams contribute to health care costs, anyway ?

I'm not sure what point you're making. Maybe you could-despite adversity to the concept-cite a source for the claim ?


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Only a darn fool would recommend against self-exams. I don't think anyone, governmental or otherwise, would make that statement.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

And … using evidence to base decisions … could lead panels to studies like this one:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12883381

Which would show a HUGE cost-benefit advantage to teaching (the cost element) breast self-examination techniques.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

That's kind of my point, Al, but … the assertion was offered, in post # 332.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

^very true, Neil. Education is cheap; a needle biopsy isn't. A self-exam is only as good as the tester, after all. And I'll have you know, I'm an expert self tester for abnormal scrotal masses. Now the image is in your head, isn't it? Enjoy that image burnt into your cortex….forever!!!


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

.... SOoooo glad I already ate ;-)


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

Ah. I may have found what DrDirt is talking about. There is a "level D" (almost no weight given) recommendation that says that teaching BSE doesn't result in significant decreases in negative health outcomes.

Odd, but … here's an article addressing the very subject:

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/the-uspstf-recommendations-for-breast-cancer-screening-not-the-final-word/

I would also argue that … it is-again-rather naive to believe that most health insurance companies will not adopt any new recommendation that allows them to save money.

It's not as though it's the evil government vs. the beneficent corporation, OR vice versa. These issues are best addressed, individually, to be sure that the best determinations are made, and that they are universally implemented, while allowing health care providers a measure of latitude to use their clinical judgment, IMHO.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Dirt,
The INSURANCE companies and other employer corporations have long been the "Death Panels":

1. By denial of coverage at critical times in a patient's health

2. By dropping all coverage, thus converting all health issues, past and present, into *"Pre-Existing Conditions"* and ending the possibility of ANY coverage into the future

3. Companies have laid off and/or fired those with potentially expensive medical histories in order to get a lower "company healthcare package" price. *I'll take REAL history over speculation any day of the week when making decisions about my health.*

4. It is these same companies/corporations/insurers that are now pushing speculative fear/propaganda aimed at scaring folks away from healthcare reform measures such as Obamacare.

5. The Private Sector has a documented history of Death Panels while the government "history" is speculation about the uncertain future under reform.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Neil good you sorted this out -

If you look throuout - I SUPPORT THE ACS position

I Do NOT support the Government Position from the USPSTF.
The concept that Oh it was just a "Low Level Recommendation" Does not change the fact that this is part of the proposed restructuring of healthcare AGAINST the conventional wisdom of Physicians and Advocacy like the ACS.

Summary of Recommendations
•The USPSTF recommends biennial screening mammography for women aged 50 to 74 years. 
Grade: B recommendation.
•The decision to start regular, biennial screening mammography before the age of 50 years should be an individual one and take patient context into account, including the patient's values regarding specific benefits and harms. 
Grade: C recommendation. 
•The USPSTF concludes that the current evidence is insufficient to assess the additional benefits and harms of screening mammography in women 75 years or older. 
Grade: I Statement.
•*The USPSTF recommends against teaching breast self-examination (BSE).
Grade: D recommendation.*
•The USPSTF concludes that the current evidence is insufficient to assess the additional benefits and harms of clinical breast examination (CBE) beyond screening mammography in women 40 years or older. 
Grade: I Statement.
•The USPSTF concludes that the current evidence is insufficient to assess the additional benefits and harms of either digital mammography or magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) instead of film mammography as screening modalities for breast cancer. 
Grade: I Statement.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Mike if you don't think there is history denial of coverage for procedures under Medicare, or VA which is "Government" and that it is only future speculation - Don't know how to help you.

5. The Private Sector has a documented history of Death Panels while the government "history" is speculation about the uncertain future under reform.

You are usually better versed than this.
This diversion in the thread is based on the proposition you seem to support - that under the Government reforms there will be no rationing of care, and nobody will be denied a procedure.
However as above - this happens already, so it is far from Speculation


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

The questions, though, are those of impact.

What impact will this have. Do we KNOW that it means that a government-run health care system (which we don't have, and which isn't even proposed, despite the histrionics of some) would NOT reimburse for the teaching of BSE's ?

Do we KNOW this ?

Does it mean that physicians will abandon their clinical judgment, wholesale, and stop educating ladies about BSE's, or … will they take it into consideration, and then make their own decisions-USING their clinical judgment-about how to practice.

And … again … how different would this practice BE, in ten years, from what the private insurers do now, and … what impact do THEIR decisions have on the practice of medicine. In other words, how do you think it works, now, with private insurance companies ?

It's hard to argue that Mike is wrong, unless you (the royal "you") want to call the patient stupid, poor, lazy, too ignorant to find a good policy, etc. Private health care DOES deny "valid" claims all the time. The notion of whipping out my slingshot, and taking them down … is really one of a filter through which one sees the world, more than reality.

It's also usually not in the best interests of sick people to add litigation to their heap, when trying to get well is, and should be, their primary goal.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

"Mike if you don't think there is history denial of coverage for procedures under Medicare, or VA which is "Government" and that it is only future speculation - Don't know how to help you."

Yet another good place where facts would help. I'm not going to dig for them, at the moment, but … if nobody else will, either, then …. just go back and forth.

I wonder if denial rates ARE available to the public. Over such large sample sizes, it should BE reasonable to compare them-private vs. Medicare.

It's also reasonable to discuss administrative and overhead expenses of those two groups. Isn't Medicare DRAMATICALLY cheaper to administer than private-sector health insurance companies ?


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

Medicare. From the GAO. Roughly 2% "true" denial rates (1997):

http://archive.gao.gov/paprpdf1/158683.pdf

"Our analysis of Medicare claims data showed that the denial rate for this 
benefit for the first quarter of fiscal year 1996 was 18.7 percent. However, 
most of these denials were for administrative reasons such as duplicate claims 
or missing information. The actual denial rate for medical ineligibility was 2 
percent. Medicare's criteria for eligibility are specific and clear cut, and 
suppliers told us they know whether patients are going to qualify for coverage."

Anybody want to try to find the comparable private-sector stat ? If I can, I will ….

At first pass, it might be tough to find apples-to-apples comparisons, but … here's related-if not identical-data:

http://www.gao.gov/products/GAO-11-268

As a consumer, I am concerned about high rates of "mandated" (the patient was forced to) appeals. If denials are overturned on appeal, then … why were they initially rejected ? I could argue that … it's because a % of the policy holders will and DO "go away." Attrition.

Do I KNOW this ? Nah. But … as a former corporate VP … I'd bet money on it. I'd bet it's a matter of policy, driven by percentages, and geared toward increasing profits.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

*Does it mean that physicians will abandon their clinical judgment, ?*
It means that JUST AS IT IS TODAY - Physicians will still only do what there is a "Billing Code"for to turn in for reimbursement.

*Private health care DOES deny "valid" claims all the time. *

Never argued otherwise - I point out that the Government denies valid claims all the time as well - why don't you ask folks about their VA experiences?
So the Royal ME - does not believe the argumen Mike makes that there is ZERO…reread ZERO denial by goverment health while thousands die in the private insurance groups.

I am focusing on peoples ABSOLUTE statements about how Utopian the Government running of health care will be and there will be no cost cutting - free sex changes, and Botox for everyone…every joing replacement will be approved within hours not months and on and on and on.

So it is EASY to argue that mikes is ABSOLUTELY WRONG.
There AREADY IS and will continue to be denial of coverage under government care

THE STRUCTURE of the IPAB having no accountability, and requiring an ACT OF CONGRESS signed into law by the president to overturn their decision is a bad idea!


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

You just put words in Mike's mouth, near as I can see.

Are you referring to this:

"The Private Sector has a documented history of Death Panels while the government "history" is speculation about the uncertain future under reform."

If so, then … he didn't say that which you attribute to him. He said … what I've said: we KNOW what's happening, now. We're GUESSING about what happens, tomorrow.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Neil SAID: It's also usually not in the best interests of sick people to add litigation to their heap, when trying to get well is, and should be, their primary goal.

And I am sure that all insurers know THAT fact by heart as they deny valid claims!


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

So Neil - in a matter of a minute on Google you can see that I am RIGHT!

The government denial is NOT ZERO
The supposition that it will be ZERO under Obamacare is just liberal tripe.
- - > WHY - becuase under Obamacare - you are mandated to buy PRIVATE HEALTH INSURANCE.
So under PRIVATE HEALTH INSURANCE mandated by Obamacare, nobody will be denied any procedures?

BTW Mike usually is capable of speaking for himself - this isn't a Vienna Bus Stop


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

You're right, only in that Straw Man argument you appeared to make.

Who said government never has, never does, and never will deny ANY claim ????

Seriously. I didn't see Mike say that, and-if you're referring to the line that I quoted-he did NOT say that.

What am I missing ?


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

When you address the point to ME, and use a statement that you say Mike made IN that post addressed to me … I may well respond to it.

What's the problem with that ?

Did he or didn't he say that the government doesn't, and won't, deny ANY claims ?


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Maybe go to Amazon and get
Claim Denied!: How to Appeal a VA Denial of Benefits [Paperback]

don't know how they could document the non existant problem (dripping sarcasm intended)

It really becomes an ideological argument:

What is it about the idea of the IPAB that will be so superior to the Blue Cross panel?

And NEIL I was referring to post 309
Insurance Corporations = Tens (hundreds?) of thousands of death camp sentences by these Corporate Insurance Death Panels because of various reasons of "cost analysis/efficiency".

ObamaCare = ZERO, unless it gets gutted by the republikans

So the claim is made that Obamacare will result in ZERO, unles the Repubs gut it.
SO AS IT STANDS NOW there will be none Zero NADA denials under Obummercare.

And so NEIL what in post 347 was addressed to you?


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

I expect to see a rapid exodus of physicans, not unlike the OB/GYNs who are now GYNs. I mean, it's already one of the 12 most over-rated jobs, lol:

http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/power-your-future/12-most-overrated-jobs-221553598.html

Can we blame the OBs?

*In 2009, one of the highest rates of insurance in Nevada is for OB/GYNs, who may pay between $85,000 for malpractice liability insurance per year up to $142,000 per year for a premium plan by a prominent insurance company. 
*

Faced with a glut of competent physicians, the first wave will be to decrease admission standards to plump enrollment. Carribean schools will flourish. When these poorly selected students can't pass the USMLE Steps, they'll have to adjust those. Of course, these now licensed physicians won't be able to pass subspecialty boards who may or may not adjust their exams. Maybe we'll let nursing assistants start writing scripts. I expect this to end badly for all of us, whichever way it goes.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Dirt: I point out that the Government denies valid claims all the time as well - why don't you ask folks about their VA experiences?

Well, let's see… Last year when I fell off a 20ft ladder at home:

1. The VA paid for the LifeFlight helicopter ride to the hospital some 40miles away

2. The VA paid for my entire 5 days in the ICU unit at the university hospital (designated by the VA for emergency treatment)

3. The VA is paying for followup X-rays and CT-scans of my ribs and lower back

4. The VA is paying for my Physical Therapy visits.

5. The VA is paying for all of my medications (blood pressure, diabetes, etc.)

MY ONLY COMPLAINT ABOUT THE VA is that *due to poor and inadequate funding of the VA* it has taken me a full year to get the followup physical therapy appointments (#3 & #4). The poor funding can be laid directly on the Republican's lap as far as I am concerned. They have a history of eating their young once they get what they want out of you.

*Politically, an example* would be Sarah Palin (Reublikans want her gone AND want her quiet).

*And for a financial example* that would be the ENTIRE VA system (Republikans claim support but oppose ANY increased funding even though veteran population has increased dramatically due to recent wars caused by, again, republikans. Added: The VA system IS SUCCESSFUL with the funding that they get and IS THE FINEST EXAMPLE of how socialized medicine in America works. And THAT is why the Republikans are trying to gut it as well.


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Wasn't it Obama that reecently wanted injured soldiers to get treatment through insurance companies?


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Really - 
Wall Street Journal March 2009

President Obama made clear during our discussion that he intends to force private insurance companies to pay for the treatment of military veterans with service-connected disabilities. He is trying to unfairly generate $540 million on the backs of veterans.

The proposed requirement for private companies to reimburse the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) would not only be unfair, but would have an adverse impact on service-connected disabled veterans and their families. Depending on the severity of the medical conditions involved, maximum insurance coverage limits could be reached through treatment of the veteran's condition alone. That would leave the rest of the family without health-care benefits.

He did back away from that stupid idea - but the idea hat the Dems are great friends of the VA is laughable.

Second - indeed Romney - inventor of ROMNEYCARE which is the model for Obamacare is proposing a Voucher system.

Mike Happy for your outcome with the VA-
I and my Family have never had a claim denied by BC/BS…..
I however am not foolish enough to try to claim everyone has been equally well served.

I KNOW BC/BS has denied coverage and people have had to fight them - -

I Also KNOW that VA has DENIED benefits.

The discussion here is your idea that ONLY private insurance has Advisory panels "Death Panels" and that a Government plan has no such thing.


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Lets face it - most of them on both sides of the isle are worthless.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

^What David said.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

To derail things further today ;-)

*CRACKING DOWN ON GUN USE*
http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/washington-whispers/2011/11/16/obama-pushing-shooters-off-public-lands

By Paul Bedard, U.S.News & World Report

Gun owners who have historically been able to use public lands for target practice would be barred from potentially millions of acres under new rules drafted by the Interior Department, the first major move by the Obama administration to impose limits on firearms.

Officials say the administration is concerned about the potential clash between gun owners and encroaching urban populations who like to use same land for hiking and dog walking.

*"It's not so much a safety issue. It's a social conflict issue,"* said Frank Jenks, a natural resource specialist with Interior's Bureau of Land Management, which oversees 245 million acres. He adds that urbanites "freak out" when they hear shooting on public lands.

If the draft policy is finally approved, some public access to Bureau lands to hunters would also be limited, potentially reducing areas deer, elk, and bear hunters can use in the West


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

*Maybe I'm hit? *
big lol


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

As much ignorance as it is incompetence.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Yep so really maybe not off topic - - - -YES WE NEED A NEW PRESIDENT ASAP

A republican Interior Seretary would not have come up with a plan as stupid as this


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

As to the denial of a "valid" claim, libs would contend that if you bought an insurance policy that has a provision to pay for up to 100 days in the hospital and you had a 120 day confinement, the 20 days that would be denied are considerd "valid" and the denial would be unjust.

Provisions in a contract that do not provide cradle to grave benefits is a social injustice for all citizens according to most of them.

Since they (libs) think the Constitution is a fluid document, why is it that an insurance policy can't be fluid as well? We just change the interpetation to meets the desired result at hand.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

David SAID: Lets face it - most of them on both sides of the isle are worthless.

Bull ********************! I know for a fact that rifle cartridges are on average a buck apiece!


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

If you as my Father in Law did - buy more than 1 brick of .22 bullets - your credit cards get cancelled.
Just big brother helping.
They had 4 bricks availale so he said I'll take all 4. paid and left.

Got to the car and realized he forgot something.
Went and got it and the credit card he had was denied at checkout.
He paid with cash and then called the CC company to find out what the problem was.

They told him that the large ammo purchase raised flags in their computers so the though the card was stolen.
The reactivated his card, but aske that he call the Credit Card company and Pre-authorize his purchase if he is going to buy so much ammunition. Followed by a "Why do you need to buy so much?"

Welcome to Big Brother keeping track in California.!


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

Mike please tell me why i should be paying for your healthcare when you an old man go up on a ladder. you know old people don't belong on ladders don't you. I will assume you are uninsured and you at one time were a solderer of some kind why should you be entitled to healthcare for life? I too am a veteran I never think i should burden the VA with a non in service claim like your recent accident or negligence of being on a ladder and falling off why would this non service related accident even be considered a VA issue. it is this kind of entitlement abuse that is bankrupting this country why are you not insured do you feel you should be exempt from buying insurance under obummer care you will have to pay for you own insurance no more entitlement for a 3-4 year hitch


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

oh ya we are way off topic unless healthcare is going to be your primary reason to endorse Obummer or to vote for who ever the republican candidate is. I live in California and i know my state will go to obummer no mater what these people are liberal to the end of the nation which cant afford the cost of this administration. I am also afraid if Obummer is re elected he will be killed by some crazy *********************************** and we will have race wars over that. I want him to go down to defeat in a bad way, more so every day. I think I like Romney and I read a lot about Cain and they may be the team in the ticket for 2012 would you vote for that ticket in either configuration.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

It is not just ladders Dude.

Think of all the Big Macs and fries we eat.

The epidemic of obesity, Type II diabetes, hypertension, hypercholesterolemia and smoking related pulmonary diseases are the primary drivers of healthcare cost and consumption in our country.

The metabolic status of Americans is abysmal.

Not all but the vast majority of these conditions is caused by our lifestyle choices and are preventable through better behavioral decision making.

Not sure why anyone should have to pay for someone elses poor decisions and reckless behavior.

Personal accountability is all but void from our society.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

I have to agree Rockey I am a big fat guy I have type 2 diabetes. it was out of control a year ago when i had my fall at work I weighed in at 385 which is about 2 times as much as i should weigh, in the past year i have lost a significant amount of weight today at my weekly weigh in i weighed 307 instead of sugars in the 200 area with an a1c of 9 i had my last a1c in at 5.6 the dr took me off actos and said to keep up the good work. I am only 50 and i don't climb ladders any more nor do i think old folks should it is a leading cause of traumatic death in Mikes age group I don't want to see him hurt I enjoy his Banter.however it was his own fault why should i pay for his healthcare just because he was in Vietnam I am guessing at your age mike i may be wrong maybe he served with me under Mr Peanut but the point is simple his fall was his fault and it was not an accident it was dumb to be up there in the first place with our protective ropes on. But I ask you why should the rest of us pay your big fat medical bill Mike


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

And YOU call me sick. Wow, beyond belief.

Well if you count my time as an electrician, then yes, I did a fair amount of "soldering", though my main duties were winch motor repair and ship's power.

As far as your opinion about serving your country, that is YOUR opinion. I served my country with the promise of lifetime medical care. I have no regrets about doing that.

As far as your wishes for your Party assassinating Obama, if it happens, it will be the END of the Republican Party. I don't buy your argument that some lone *********************************** will be responsible. Too damn many abortion doctors have been killed by lone **************************************** for me to believe it is anything but Republican Assassins. THAT story has lost its credibility a long, long time ago. And it won't be what you call "race wars" you will have to worry about.

Oh wait,... THAT's RIGHT, you Republikans *still* think your kind are the Aryan Nation don't you (Redundant, no answer expected). Hate to pop your bubble there Gestapo Dude, but THAT is so WWII. I heard that Benito faced one of your death panels but insisted on being shot in the chest. And Benito didn't even have to pay for the bullet, but according to you maybe he should have. Not exactly that kind of presidential politics we prefer in America.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Dude, too bad you served in peacetime. That is all I need to say, other than I served so that me might HAVE peace. I was still over there when Ford pardoned Nixon instead of throwing his ass in jail. What a Republican farce!


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

that all very fine mike you enjoy your entitlement i to have lifetime medical care but unlike you i am not a leach I take care of myself. and further more when obummer care goes into effect you loose your va care you will have to insure your self pre existing conditions and all good luck with that


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

and you dont deny being a leach do you mike


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Dude - I am getting long in the tooth and I use ladders, really don't like too but I do. I had one go out from under me once, 3 stories up - its not the fall (that was easy) that sudden stop was a bitch.

I don't eat fast food - can't. But I agree with the health care thing. I have seen both sides of the coin not having it and having it. Under current guidelines, I don't like it, as the fed takes control of it and then runs into budget problems, we will be in a bad way. Anything that has to be funded for 10 years to affectively get 6 - you know there is gonna be an issue someplace


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Neil - I have a question for you -
Other than the military (whole different conversation because that is required under the constitution), please give me one government program that was/is run correctly - efficiently, without over bueacracy, cost efectively and without GREAT quantity of waste - just one.

Cannot say the IRS - Pres R.R, turned IRS's procurment over to the Army when the IRS could not account for 6 Billion of lost money.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

So Dude,
Just how much are you leaching off of Workman's Compensation & Disability since that surely is YOUR "...lifetime medical care…" entitlement? And since (as you call it your own fault) it was YOUR negligence that caused your fall at work, how is YOUR entitlement different? Oh THAT's right, I was promised lifetime healthcare by the American Government for my military service and YOU just took a dive at work.

Glad to hear that you dropped your weight down from 385lb to a purportedly healthy 307lb. What are you, NINE FEET tall? I am currently at my heaviest yet still weigh nearly a hundred pounds LESS than YOUR new healthy weight, and yes I too am dealing with Type II. Just like Doug, I do NOT eat fast food but as for you and your 385lb well… I can't say, but…

As far as climbing ladders, only the rich can afford to pay others to climb ladders for chores around the home. The rest of us have to do it ourselves, regardless of age.

I just DO NOT understand what you have against O'RomneyCare. You just said that HE's your man, so why should the healthcare plan created under Romney's example be so bad in your eyes?

As for me, *Romney flip flops more than all the contestants combined at any State Fair Pancake Flipping Contest.* There are things I do not like about Obama, however the Republikans have proven all of themselves Hell bent on the destruction of the American middle class.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Wow, we're deteriorating again.

*Romney flip flops more than all the contestants combined at any State Fair Pancake Flipping Contest.*

That made me laugh, though. I love pancakes.


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Gotta have pure maple syrup with that but I halfta go with Johnny cakes


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Way ahead of you, Cr1. I got the AllClad wafflemaker for Xmas a couple years back. Buckwheat yeast waffles are the breasts. My friend coined that phrase, "the breasts", to indicate awesomeness.

I was a training visitor when that Walter Reed thing hit. Made me ill. All veterans deserve expert care to the grave. If someone doesn't respect veterans, I have complete disregard for anything that comes out of their mouth. If someone disrepects them in front of me, I may pursue other avenues.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

*Fun Fact:* Veterans in the VA Healthcare System that are currently/actually seeking medical care make up just 1.6% of the U.S. population (5mill./313mill.)

And these are the folks that protect(ed) ALL Americans regardless of political affiliation. Yet the VA continues to be underfunded.

U.S. Census Clock ~313,000,000 Population

*Veterans Enrolled in VA's Health System, 1999 to 2007*
(Millions of veterans)


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

^I'd like to see a superimposed third bar for homelessness or psychiatric disease. It's depressing.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Al,

*How many homeless veterans are there?*

Although flawless counts are impossible to come by - the transient nature of homeless populations presents a major difficulty - VA estimates that 107,000 veterans are homeless on any given night. Over the course of a year, approximately twice that many experience homelessness. *Only eight percent of the general population can claim veteran status, but nearly one-fifth of the homeless population are veterans.*

About 1.5 million other veterans, meanwhile, are considered at risk of homelessness due to poverty, lack of support networks, and dismal living conditions in overcrowded or substandard housing.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

^I totally agree. My experiences at the VA as both a student and resident were my best experiences. The computer system was by far the easiest system to navigate. I like old folks and I love veterans, so I just enjoyed being there. Even as a student with my short white coat, stethoscope fumbling out of my pocket, the vets always treated me with more respect than I deserved. Compared to the Charity hospitals and even private practices, the respect from the patient was night and day. I get a little choked up just thinking about it now.

At the VA in New Orleans, they had little "gangs" of same-service folks who had friendly altercations with opposing gangs. The insult trading was top notch. I learned a lot about how to be a man at the VA.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

*Al*: were you the Todd-ster, from "Scrubs ??"










You can tell me. It'll be our secret ….


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Dude, I love that guy. Early Scrubs was a fine, fine thing. "There's a breast reduction going on on the 4th floor…I'm going to stop it."


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

David-

I lost my post. Argggh !

Briefly: the terms you used are subjective, so … no … I don't have any info about these companies, and-in no case-could I readily make the judgments that you asked about.

I see no reason to exclude the military from the conversation. If they DO do some things well, then there's reason to implement those things across other organizations.

The main motive for corp's is profit. The main motive for public-sector functions … pretty much isn't. Can't measure both with the same yardstick, and hope to gain wisdom. In fact, I would argue that there are many functions that should be viewed as "common good," and NOT run for profit. One would be the prison system. I think it's a big mistake to privatize incarceration, as … the profit motive leads to $$$$ lobbying for more criminalization of current activities, and longer sentences.

If I turned your question around on you, though, you would find endless examples of ALL the same problems in the private sector, including failures of innumerable companies, and the death knell of entire industries.

As I say … one is NOT inherently good, while the other is inherently evil. Not by any objective and reasonably appropriate standard.


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

I had to visit a VA hospital a couple of times when I was in the Navy. Very nice folks, very professional. Its funny, you can be a veteran but unless you were injured while in service or retired from the service, you cannot get treatment there. Found out the hard way when I was seriously sick, didn't have insurance - they sent me away because I was not a retired service person.


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Neil - THe difference with the private sector is that it is based upon profit and loss where the government is not. Many folks on the hill feel that the money we make is theirs for the taking. In a corporation, if you do not make money you cannot operate for long. A company/corporation and state governments cannot operate in a deficit - not allowed.

If an exec in a company has the responsibility and accountability over the profitability of the company and does his or her job, they are entitiled to whatever salary they negotiate with their board of directors. That is what the board does - oversees the senior executive staff and the stock holders from there. As it is, corporations' revenues are taxed twice.

I was told, when I had my own company, that I should not have million dollar contracts because my company only had 2 people at the time. I went out and got them, fulfilled them, exceeded my customers' expectations - and I was wrong???

I am all about a free capitalist society, and definately not for a socialist anything. If anybody has a problem with go out there, taking the risks, and making something of themselves - good for them. THis is the ONLY country in the world where a person can put all of there eggs in one basket, loose everything, dust off their feet, and comeback and make it work.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

dbray45,
I think your comments are good, except 1: 
THis is the ONLY country in the world where a person can put all of there eggs in one basket, loose everything, dust off their feet, and comeback and make it work.

Should read; This is the only country in the world whose bankruptcy laws allow you to file and dump all debts, then start up again the next day debt free. In other parts of the world this is called cheating and not allowed, you have to sell off your company assets and pay down or all the debts so other companies you are indebted to can survive.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Although a popular pass-time, we have got to stop playing dominoes in business and personal life.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

No mike my lifetime medical is from the VA It was a condition of my discharge a novice pilot turned off his break throwing me into a intake where i suffered major injury's not that its any of your business but my fall at work will not be paid on any grand scale such as your fall needing life flight and days in a hospital I insure my self you don't and that makes you a burden fortunately that service is going away. kind of give you a sinking feeling knowing you may have to pull your own weight isn't it mike. now if you had a service related injury that would be something entirely different. if you had combat wounds i would have no problem paying for your care but as it sits you fell it was your own fault and you burden the VA with a huge bill for a life-flight helicopter. that withstanding your foolish choice to climb atop a ladder and do something wrong during this ill advised trip to the top you fell I am sorry you hurt your self but you have no case for us to pay when you should insure your self.

i bet if you asked your dr mike he would tell you your fat at 5foot 6 and 207 your no little guy either


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

5'6" is Napoleon Syndrome territory. I believe Mr. Bonaparte was exactly 5'6". Hitler was 5'8" and Mussolini 5'6 1/2". I'm just sayin'...


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Dude,
And you buy insurance so that you can make foolish decisions and be negligent with YOUR life's activities so your whole analogy thing is off, grand scale or not.

Well I'm taller than you and your and your buddies Bonaparte, Hitler, et al, so no worries there Dude, too bad to dash all your hopes. You seem like such a guy, pointing fingers and all. It also sounds like you should have been paying more attention yourself, as I would think it a bit naive/negligent to trust a novice pilot, but you did. BTW, back when I hit a deer on the Harley I had a premiere BCBS policy and those corporate hacks still stuck me for way more than any 80/20 ratio. They re-wrote their policy on the fly to exclude what ever they felt like. I have NO respect for any corporate insurance at all. Just a bunch of thieves.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

I belive someone needs to call a wambulance for mikey.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

mike I think you need a mri of the skull to find when the brain damage occurred

you had better get used to it mike the gravy train is at an end you will have no VA coverage under obummercare


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Man, you guys are brutal. I'm keeping my insurance policies until they take them from me.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Believe what you want to believe Dud, after all you were just a peace-timer who could NOT maintain his own attention span and not get hurt.

Post #379 Dude: I take care of myself
Post #375 Rocky: Think of all the Big Macs and fries we eat.
Post #376 *2 1/2 Dude* SAID: I have to agree Rockey I am a big fat guy I have type 2 diabetes. *it* was out of control a year ago when i had my fall at work I weighed in at 385 which is about 2 times as much as i should weigh

SO, did you sue that clown Ronald for *"IT"*? In other words why are YOU blaming… Blaming Ronald McDonald for YOUR Big Mac Attack? I know those fries are greasy, but man!, you need to watch where you step! I don't want you being any MORE of a burden to society. And NOW you are talkin' 'bout some *"gravy train"*... Geez man! Get off the food kick and you will live longer, honest!


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

I like the breakfast biscuits you get at McDonalds.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

cr1: Smart move man, bet you miss those 10c burgers though.
I made a Jewish cake last week, it's good. here's the recipe:
First you borrow 6 eggs …...................


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

^in before people start attacking Rex for that one, lol


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

The America the left no longer believes in.

Truly inspirational
http://www.realamericanstories.com/rocket-man-jose-hernandez-astronaut-nasa/


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

No sense reading the article, after you say something like "The America the left no longer believes in."

Out of idle curiosity … are you (and cr1, to cite to clear examples) capable of having a discussion about ideas, WITHOUT demonizing, vilifying, or using pejoratives to describe those who disagree with you ?

Or using straw man arguments ?

Right now, I'm thinking that the answer is "No," but I'd love to be proved wrong.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Neil try the link - - - actually nothing to read there it is a video

Once in a while you are rational but both you and mike tend to subscribe to the 
"Everything on the right from the republicans is evil and about eating Children…...While we democrats are all just spreading butterfly kisses and watering the earth with Unicorn tears"

If you could ever realize that the Dems actually say and do some really stupid crap, and that sometimes the republican was right…..then the ideas can be discussed.

Meaningful discussions recognize that sometimes the other side has a point…..show me you are capable of being something other than an comitted ideologue and we could get somewhere.

e.g. Mikey - - Well I'm taller than you and your and your buddies Bonaparte, *Hitler, et *al, so no worries there Dude, too bad to dash all your hopes.

Remember no Demonizing vilifying or using perjoratives…....LOL


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

cr1: Fish is really good for you. Have you tried Kippers and toast for breakfast?


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

*cr1 Said* *"I went lacto ovo vegetarian back in the late 1970s*:

My daughter went Valor Victorian around the same time ….... small world?

This post not to be confused with "He Said, They Said" jousting on this thread.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

cr1: You aught to try smoked kipper fillets, unfortunately you can only get them here in flat cans. They are popular in Europe especially Germany, but the Scots eat them for breakfast, after a bowl of porridge (oatmeal) made with water and salt, and finish up with toast and thick cut peel marmalade. It's a hearty breakfast and also very good for you. You get so fit, you can wear a kilt in the coldest weather. , but if you hear a "clang", then they are mine. 
My daughter is of the "old School" - sorry about my humor, not many understand it.


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## muleskinner (Sep 24, 2011)

*The America the left no longer believes in.*

The funny thing is that if Jose Hernandez was growing up today a large portion of the right would be advocating bundling him and his family back to Mexico.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

*Believe what you want to believe Dud, after all you were just a peace-timer who could NOT maintain his own attention span and not get hurt.

Post #379 Dude: I take care of myself
Post #375 Rocky: Think of all the Big Macs and fries we eat.
Post #376 2 1/2 Dude SAID: I have to agree Rockey I am a big fat guy I have type 2 diabetes. it was out of control a year ago when i had my fall at work I weighed in at 385 which is about 2 times as much as i should weigh

SO, did you sue that clown Ronald for "IT"? In other words why are YOU blaming… Blaming Ronald McDonald for YOUR Big Mac Attack? I know those fries are greasy, but man!, you need to watch where you step! I don't want you being any MORE of a burden to society. And NOW you are talkin' 'bout some "gravy train"… Geez man! Get off the food kick and you will live longer, honest!*

you say your taller than 5foot 6 and 207 and yet you are a little napoleon with short-man syndrome who cant think enough to keep that teaching job with benefits. No your a low life grease ball not fit to be around kids with your chip on the shoulder mentality. look little man i am right here any time you want to go for it after i do a rain-dance on you you will wish you were smart enough to walk away when no one cares about the liberal trash that spews from your keyboard your just a troll and to think i liked you when i first came here ya i trust the wrong people sometimes but no one is perfect especially you. peace timer shows how little you know Mikey I was in eagle claw with rifles and the whole business and you never shot anyone you gear tender


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Showin' your true colors there Mister 2 1/2 Dud? BTW and FYI, the average height for a man in America is right around 5ft 9in and at that height the ideal weight for that average man is 152lb. So take your 385lb weight and divide 152 INTO it and:

385 / 152 = 2.5328 making you literally 2 1/2 Men. Just an observation, no accusation since I actually feel sorry for you and your other Far Right Wingnuts.

After reading thread after thread of your kind's vulgar personal attacks on anything Democrat, I decided to feed that ******************** sandwich BACK to you Right Wingnuts in the glorious color that your Republikan friends have bestowed upon Democrat LJs in the Non-Shop Talk. * So tell me, just how does that ******************** sandwich taste now that YOU are being fed such fare?*

NOTE: The difference between myself and "YOUR" kind is that at least I know when I am being an asshole (RE this thread and my LumberFaux thread) and you and your kind are clueless that your own ******************** stinks to high heaven. Just ask ANY of the lefty's on here because THEY all know that all I have been doing is mimicking you and yours.
Sincerely,
Bilbo Baggins, Bigot Bagger


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

look Mikey when i was a recon ranger i was 190 and could run 30 miles a day and you fixed wenches on a frigate or a tug boat. i ate people like you for lunch and even at my size today I am still able to take anything you can dish out and give it back to your socialist ass no one here ate any ******************** from you your not even a man your a mouse a squid who dreams he had the balls to be a marine and never measured up you are a low life commie who thinks we all owe you something I cant wait till election day when o bummer is back to chi town where he belongs with the gang bangers I see you never respond to any thing I accuse you of because its all true Mikey you old weak and affraid to be a man so you go after me for getting fat well i wasn't always fat and i wont always be fat i saw what i had become and i was still better looking than your greasy ass even at 6'5" tall 385 your a little man with little ideas you have no independent thought you ar a collage book in regurgitation mode I get more conflict from a 1st grader than you can dish out you gutless little worm who cant keep a job


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Do I detect an air of displeasure?

http://www.dailymotion.com/embed/video/x5xy1
Monty Python - Arguement Clinic _by scootaway_


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

how observant Rex yes you do


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

If you insist…
*Thank you* Dud (AKA Lenny), for proving my point. Still choking on that ******************** sandwich,eh… 
Bilbo Baggins = 1
The Dud = 0

Dud: "...your a low life grease ball…"
Dud: "...i ate people like you for lunch…"
Dud: "...even at 6'5" tall 385"

To quote a little John Steinbeck: "...Tell me about the rabbits George,... tell me about the rabbits."






PLEASE!
ONE MORE TIME-RE-READ THE FOLLOWING (v-e-r-y s-l-o-w-l-y and with understanding THIS TIME):
*"NOTE: The difference between myself and "YOUR" kind is that at least I know when I am being an asshole (RE: this thread and my LumberFaux thread) and you and your kind are clueless that your own ******************** stinks to high heaven. Just ask ANY of the lefty's on here because THEY all know that all I have been doing is mimicking you and yours.
Sincerely,
Bilbo Baggins, Bigot Bagger"*


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

a bit warm in here?


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Can we all take a moment to reflect on the smaller stuff? Live on the infranet:








We have more in common than we think.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)




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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

That's what I'm talking about Rex, the glue, brother, the common denominator. We'd all be best friends INSTANTLY in the dog park or bar. This fighting is over a small fragment of what makes us us.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

More Glue


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

Yes, the dogs CAN put things into perspective…


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

*CR1 SAID: "Next you'll post some ….......... Oh hell I'll do it:"


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

In the spirit of trying to get along with all of you dogs:










Damn Republikans are STILL chasing my ass all over the place! Does it count that the cat's name is/was "Dogface" (died last year). Appropriate name, don't ya' think? Just look CLOSELY at his face… and the lack of a manly pair of…

*;-)*


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

^huge lol. A cat named Dogface is always welcome in my house. That is one cute face


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Yeah, and did I mention that Dogface weighed in at a litlle over 22lb, or ~2x what he should have weighed. That is until all the organ failures related to his obesity. Had to put him down when we found him doing the death grovel one morning. Don't like putiing them down but you gotta do what you gotten do when the time comes… He was only 9-years old. All our other cats over the years made it between 18-20 years each. Not sure exactly, but isn't it 5:1 for cats and 7:1 for dogs? I am thinking that would have made Dogface 45 human years when we had to bury him.

Pets do fill a hole in folks lives and are worth having though…


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Maybe the proposed Buffett Rule was really a joke?
November 19, 2011


Buffett Sues the IRS*
*
*

*Warren Buffett, who has been running around complaining that the government should "stop coddling the super-rich" and should raise taxes, is reportedly suing the IRS to avoid $643 million in taxes that the government says Berkshire Hathaway's NetJets subsidiary owes the government for failing to collect ticket taxes from NetJets customers (who include Mr. Buffett himself). The suit against the IRS is filed by NetJets Large Aircraft Inc., not by Mr. Buffett himself, but Mr. Buffett is CEO of NetJet parent Berkshire and its largest individual shareholder.

Neither the Bloomberg News article, which is by Don Jeffrey and was edited by Charles Carter and Andrew Dunn, nor the Wall Street Journal story, by Erik Holm, comment on the obvious irony or inconsistency of Mr. Buffett running around claiming the government should raise taxes on other rich people while going to the unusual length of suing to avoid paying taxes the government says his company owes on behalf of its private-jet-using clients. **When the tax man doesn't coddle Mr. Buffett, he sues!*


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

I'd shoot a horse that attacked my dog; I'd shoot the owner atop him too; just sayin'


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Geez, and I thought seedy lawyers only chased ambulances. You learn something new every day here.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

^well then, I guess it'd be an old fashioned showdown Man on horse versus guy with dog; I wonder who the World would root for? Horses are about the most majestic creature on the planet, maybe THE most majestic; however, the bond between a man and his dog isn't something to be messed with. That's just universal Country law. Rex can tell you what they do to men who kick dogs in Texas.

I've got an Ed Brown 1911 Safe Queen. Custom TN Holster Co. leather. The 1911 is the breasts. For general purpose, I'm a Sig220 guy all day long. If I know I'm going to get really wet and muddy, it's the G21SF, not that the Sig couldn't handle it; I just like Glocks less.

I'm looking at an itty bitty XD right now and of course, the warthog. I need something that I can get out quickly in case some crazy dude on a horse comes after me.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

*This quote was translated into English from an article appearing in the Czech Republic as published in the Prager Zeitung of 28 April 2011.*

"The danger to America is not Barack Obama but a citizenry capable of entrusting an inexperienced man like him with the Presidency. It will be far easier to limit and undo the follies of an Obama presidency than to restore the necessary common sense and good judgment to a depraved electorate willing to have such a man for their president. The problem is much deeper and far more serious than Mr. Obama, who is a mere symptom of what ails America. Blaming the prince of the fools should not blind anyone to the vast confederacy of fools that made him their prince. The Republic can survive a Barack Obama. It is less likely to survive a multitude of idiots such as those who made him their president."


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

3000 cash might be too far, but I think a good start is that you must show a pay stub and Photo ID.

If you are living on the dole- you lose your say to continue to vote in the guys offering to up your gubmint check.

Leave government choices to the people that have to pay all the bills. I would allow for any working stiff to vote, you wouldn't have to be only the top 50% that actually pay federal taxes.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Lest people like to say that only the Repubs are for the Rich

*Big Government: George Soros Helped Craft Stimulus then Invested in Companies Benefiting*
AP Graphics

By Wynton Hall, Big Government

Billionaire George Soros gave advice and direction on how President Obama should allocate so-called "stimulus" money in a series of regular private meetings and consultations with White House senior advisers even as Soros was making investments in areas affected by the stimulus program.

It's just one more revelation featured in the blockbuster new book that continues to rock Washington, *Throw Them All Out*, authored by Breitbart News editor Peter Schweizer.

Mr. Soros met with Mr. Obama's top economist on February 25, 2009 and twice more with senior officials in the Old Executive Office Building on March 24th and 25th as the stimulus plan was being crafted. Later, Mr. Soros also participated in discussions on financial reform

We really need to just clean house


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

CR1: Once you turn a horse on a dog and charge it they turn tail and run. It's fun. Big bad snarling beast sees 2000 pounds of muscle and bone bearing down on it and it's guts turn to jelly and the coward inside emerges. Off it goes, yipping like whipped puppy.

I guess that sounds right… All I know is when I see ********************, I run the F_ at it. Don't really care if it's bigger or littler. Not braggin' unfortunately, but do have a mouth full of gold to prove it (and that does NOT mean I always lost). And I have been known to chase down dogs when I used to run the neighborhood ( ~20 yr ago). I guess you have to look at the mental capacity of those turn tail dogs… THAT's why I have cats. When they get cornered, you know it. As for me, it was never about any boot camp training bull********************, all I remember is that every time something happened and folks were running away, I was always running at it to find out what happened. Never trained that way but never got over doing that either.





Heard the latest bull********************, the right is trying to get Hilary to run and Obama to back out of 2012… Just another Rightnut tacKtic to to try and cast doubt among the Democrats. IMO, how asinine! The left now knows how the Right works and it no longer surprises them. And the Right has whu't, Cain and Mitt UnAble!


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

no mike there is always on brave and stupid dog who will just stand there in the face of death barking his dumb ass off right up to the moment he dies i see you as that little dog


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## steviep (Feb 25, 2011)




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## tom427cid (Aug 21, 2011)

Grew up on a ranch,rode horses before I could walk,always had dogs(pit bulls),together it makes a hell of a team.Most horses an dogs smarter than people. Some yahoo sicks his dam horse on my dog--shoot the horse,cause its no bettern a chicken killin dog.
Owner has a problem with that--I don't mind,shoot the owner. That's the cowboy way,not the perception of some wannabe "I got 2 pistols an I'm a badass".
tom


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

I bet you do Dud, I bet you do.

Have another treat now, "Good Dud….good Dud…sit."

BTW Dud, you just don't get it. Everyone has a "tweaking point" and that is why poor language and accusations are so powerful yet so inappropriate in politics. When I see such foul/derogatory language coming blindly from the right I personally grab my mirror and redirect all that negativity right back toward the right where it came from.

You have demonstrated that you see all of your political comments and party/individual accusations as acceptable, yet when you are on the receiving end of such comments,... All of a sudden, "your button" gets pushed and off you go.

It never feels good to have your own personal "buttons" pushed, political or otherwise, so JUST MAYBE you should think about that when you start leveling your own derogatory diatribe at others politically, personal, etc. You never know when such comments will come back and bite you in the ass.

I know, I know, you want to claim YOUR *"right to free speech"* and YOU don't want ANYONE to interfere with YOUR expression of YOUR rights.

Guess what… *other folks also have THAT right to free speech as well* and if THEY choose to follow your lead (derogatory, name calling, etc) then THEY can make things rather uncomfortable for YOU when YOU want to express YOUR opinions in such a negative fashion. *AND I ADMIT, I have made it a point to return your negativity, derogatory comments, and accusations (both political and personal) WITH FULL GUSTO.*

It does NOT feel so good when YOU are on the receiving end does it? And THAT is my point in this.

The Republicans have been MUCH MORE successful at this full tilt derogatory name calling tactic, much better than the Democrats' history of attempting the same. Examples: John Kerry "swift boat" and Anita Hill character assassination just to name a couple.

However, most of us Democrats now see the tactic for what it is and some of us will return the favor. You can decide where this goes at any time, as I am rather house-broken to being read the riot act. Just sayin'...


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Dude, Mike, and everyone else watching this thread-Happy Thanksgiving to all.

Just a thought - agree with Newt on this -

IF all of the congressmen, in all of the subcommittees were to do their jobs and propose cuts that made sense for the areas that they were responsible, the 1.4T would be small compared to what is possible.

The supercommitee was a bad idea (if not a violation of the Constitution) and it takes away what the 500+ members of congress are supposed to do in the first place.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

dbray45:

*Yes, Happy Thanksgiving to all.*
Personally I'm already sick of turkeys being roasted.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

*I WON the LOTTERY*

http://static.photobucket.com/player.swf


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

and still the dumb little dog barks and barks but he is getting through to no one cause no one cares about that little bastard he yelps and yelps and still nothing he is a nuisance to the thread and to life in general


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

too funny rex


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Fine, I guess I'll stay the course with you and your delusions…

Dud, I sure hope you realize that you are the reason the Far Right wants to eliminate the Department of Education. This is how the Republikans try to stay in office, by keeping you from obtaining any real knowledge/education.

But then again "2 1/2 Dud" with your out of control Diabetes and the resulting diminished mental and physical capacities that go with that disease, maybe you don't realize just how much you are being manipulated. Don't worry though, I hear the Republikans have arranged truckers to make the rounds in their 18-wheelers on election day in order to get you to the voting booth.

Oh wait a minute, aren't most truckers unionized under the Teamsters?...

*HEY DUD! WAKE UP!*


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## patron (Apr 2, 2009)

*"THE ILLEGAL WE CAN DO IMMEDIATELY,
THE UNCONSTITUTIONAL
TAKES A LITTLE LONGER"*

henry kissinger


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

mike your still just a little Hitler with fat animals. it is so hard for you to realize i have better control of my diabetes than you ever will cause you stuff your face with beans ans tacos and tortillas. look first you had a fat cat asshole picture now a picture of your fat dog.way to care for your dumb animals . and you cant even take a kind word and let things lie you are a little pee on instigator. a wench boy in bell bottoms so stylish. then you got fired from a public service job as a principal. thank god the district saw you for the looser you are the only thing you taught kids is how the cash their welfare check you little porker


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

*your still just a little Hitler with fat animals*
Forget the argument; that might be the greatest insult line in internet history


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Dude - It is your thread but-lets not make this a personal issue and keep it on point. One thing I do believe in, is the right to say what you want. I don't agree with the current administration or any of the policies they have put on the table and passed.

But it is not a good path to take this personal - bad business in my book and takes away from the real points. If you want to go down that road, it is up to you but it is not good, gives the power to the other side of the fence and proves what they try to push AND clouds your thought.

My two or three cents.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

*And the saga of the Trash-Talk Contest continues…*

Wow "2 1/2 Dud," 
You managed to invoke Godwin's Law (accusation of 'Hitler'), turned racist (called me a '******************************', as opposed to a Neil AKA NBeener), accused me incorrectly of being a "dog owner", calling me an instigator when you started out with the name-calling and such (but conveniently 'forgot' THAT), dissed the US Navy uniform, and attacked/assumed things about my job/profession that you have no knowledge.

BTW "2 1/2 Dud", just do a search on "da' inner-nets" for fat dogs and you can find not only the images that David and I have copied and used, one of your self as well (pun intended). But then again, THAT would take some knowledge and skill, something you appear to have in short supply.

FYI So people would call your personal attacks bigotry. As for me, I know that I am being an ass to you in order to attempt to get you to see yourself. This seems to be a futile effort in that bigots are incapable of such introspection:

World English Dictionary
bigot (ˈbɪɡət) [Click for IPA pronunciation guide] - n
a person who is intolerant of any ideas other than his or her own, esp on religion, politics, or race

Wikipedia
A *bigot* is a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices, especially one exhibiting intolerance, and animosity toward those of differing beliefs. The predominant usage in modern English refers to persons hostile to those of differing sex, race, ethnicity, religion or spirituality, nationality, language, inter-regional prejudice, gender and sexual orientation, age, homelessness, various medical disorders particularly behavioral disorders and addictive disorders. Forms of bigotry may have a related ideology or world views.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

I dunno Mikey, those definitions seem to suit you pretty well

Bigot= "A person intolerant of any ideas other than his/her own regarding POLITICS"

Look in the mirror Mikey Boy.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

*Back to the original topic*

Per Bernie Goldberg, a former liberal

In difficult times, a wise man once said, it's important to state the obvious. So here goes…
Barack Obama cannot run for re-election touting his success in economic matters. That's mainly because he's had no success in economic matters. 
He can't brag about a low unemployment rate - not when it's over 9 percent. 
He can't boast about the growing economy, which is barely growing and may even slide back into recession. 
He can't tell the voters about all the new, clean, green jobs he's creating, because he isn't. (Can you say Solyndra?) And perhaps you've noticed that he's already stopped talking about how many millions of any-kind-of jobs his administration has "created or saved" and is now talking about all the jobs his policies have "supported," whatever that means.

So what can he do? Only one thing: Wage class warfare. Turn Americans against each other based on envy. Divide Americans into two camps: the "greedy" rich who don't contribute their "fair share" on one side … and all the downtrodden, decent people struggling for a better life on the other.
Pitting Americans against each other simply for personal political gain would be bad enough. But for a president who rode into office on a magic carpet of lofty promises about hopes and dreams to make America a better, post-partisan place, this is truly despicable.
Nothing - absolutely nothing - is the same as race in America, but something like this politics of division has been tried before. Racist politicians in the Old South divided Americans based on the color of their skin - and they did it for just one reason: to win elections. They didn't care about the harm they were doing. They cared only about themselves.
Turning Americans against each other by (over and over and over again) telling the middle-class (where the majority of the votes just happen to reside) - that Republicans are the Marie Antoinette Party that cares only about "millionaires and billionaires" and doesn't give a damn about everybody else, isn't as bad as promising to "keep those n---s in their place" … but it's still pretty bad.
And just as it worked (until it didn't) in the Old South, the politics of envy may work again. According to a Time magazine poll, 79 percent of Americans familiar with the Occupy Wall Street protest believe "the gap between the rich and the poor in the U.S. is too large" and 68 percent believe "the rich should pay more in taxes."
Never mind that the poor aren't poor because the rich are rich. In fact, if we had fewer rich people we'd probably have more poor people, since rich people are the ones who invest their money in companies that produce jobs. And even if the rich paid 100 percent of their income in taxes it would barely put a dent in the national debt and wouldn't create a single job. 
Barack Obama surely knows this. But he also thinks he knows - or at least hopes - that the American people are envious enough, and dumb enough, to buy into his class warfare strategy.
President Obama is smooth and can be convincing. He was once. And he may be again. After all, there are a lot of envious, dumb Americans out there who don't have a clue as to how the economy works but they're sure of one thing: they hate rich people. And not all of them are Occupying Wall Street.

So there's your answer…....We need a new President


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

By K.T. McFarland

When Obama took the oath of office in January 2009 America was the undisputed leader of the world. That's no longer the case today. Friends no longer seek our advice, foes are willing to challenge us, and worst of all the American people no longer think we're just going through a temporary bad patch, but that we're in an inevitable and permanent decline.

President Obama is fond of saying we've never been through such perilous times. He's wrong. We've been in far worse places before and survived and thrived. Think of Lincoln trying to hold the Union together by having to sacrifice 600,000 lives. Or FDR dealing with the Great Depression, Pearl Harbor and World War II. In spite of the crises they faced, they never doubted our ability to get through it and climb to even greater heights. And we knew they believed it, not just with pretty speeches but at the core of their beings, and so we believed it too. Lincoln talked about preserving the 'last best hope of earth.' FDR said the only thing we had to fear was fear itself. Reagan talked about that shining city on a hill.

Obama believes in global solutions, and that American exceptionalism is no different from British exceptionalism or Greek exceptionalism. He prefers to lead from behind and thinks America should just be one among many. He says the problem is we've become lazy. And because he doesn't believe in us, we've started to doubt ourselves, too.

In the end this is the only issue that matters. 
Most Americans believe deep in their hearts that we have something special here and we're in danger of losing it. We think Washington is broken, and the country is on the wrong track. We can't understand why there are no jobs, we're looking for the candidate that can get us to believe in ourselves again, the one who believes deep in his heart that we are different from every other country in the history of the world; that we have been blessed by God and our founding principles like freedom and self reliance and equal rights have made us unique and exceptional.

But to believe it is not enough, we yearn for someone who can show us the way back. We've been here before, with President Carter. It took Ronald Reagan to get us to believe in ourselves again, and we went on to revive a stagnating economy and win the Cold War, and lead millions out from under the rule of dictators into freedom. We know who this generation's Carter is, but where is our Reagan?

We need a new President


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## Porchfish (Jun 20, 2011)

First it would be nice if we could step back and study history. America has NEVER seen a FREE MARKET system. The closest we came also brought along the wonderful Robber Baron Class. (read 1% now) is child labor and debtors prisons far behind ? 
The middle class is no longer a viable entity in America. We now have a "working Poor" class (or the other 98%) 
On the left and right we have those decrying the loss of the "Great American Dream" but not a single person bantering the term about from either side of the continuum is capable of actually defining the concept. Rupert Murdoch was 100% correct when in a 1994 public radio interview he claimed that he would soon be directing America's political discourse through his burgeoning media empire ! He further posited that America was incapable of creating anything other than a docile work force that would sit idly by, while they were taught to consume themselves through their own ignorance. 
Where does that leave us ? At the mercy of our own greed ! Sitting in our own stunned disbelief that the success of so few could cause the irreversible demise of so many ! Tinkering with the economy in dribs and drabs will not salvage anything. Jobs shipped overseas for economic gain will not be returning to our shores until our greed-class (read international corporate) warriors have succeeded through deregulation and misinformation in turning America into a re-developing nation ! A nation re-developing along the lines of the 17th century British Aristocratic based empire model ! 
We don't need Jim Hightower to tell us where we are going ! We are already there ! We needed an FDR and instead we found another Hoover. Historians of the 40's wondered what would have happened if FDR had not been elected. Now we can all show them ourselves what they have so long conjectured about ! 
This is it. We did not ALL deserve this self inflicted wound, but we all will suffer from it. Too bad Pain isn't traded on the commodities market, or American investors would corner the market for it and dole it out "compassionately" at a considerable profit of course !


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

But Fish we have to look at consumerism.

How many people bemoaning the shipping of manufacturing jobs overseas are happy to go buy cheap tools at Harbor freight, and shop for clothes and groceries at Wal-Mart.

The Walmarts and Harbor Freights aren't doing anything illegal - but have irrevocably driven the race to the bottom.

A more interesting question about FDR would be if he were elected today….whether he would have continued to back China and whether there woudl be favored nation trade status today

Looking backwards is not as helpful because it ignores the Global nature of economies. If as in FDR's day we had stil a full VERTICALLY INTEGRATED manufacturing system not dependant on Bearings from Germany, and Wire from China, and Rubber from South America, and Oil from Saudi Arabia….AND AND AND AND AND!
None of that was true in the 40's we were huge exporters especially in the late 40's because Europe was still rubble, they depended on the UNTOUCHED BY BOMBS factories in the USA.
The Heyday in the 40's and 50's were artificial, once Euope was buying European goods and services, the US began to slide, and the government started to try to prop things up with entitlements, and programs to keep the gravy train running.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Perhaps the EU model is plenty stupid itself:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/8897662/EU-bans-claim-that-water-can-prevent-dehydration.html

*EU bans claim that water can prevent dehydration*

EU officials concluded that, following a three-year investigation, there was no evidence to prove the previously undisputed fact.

Producers of bottled water are now forbidden by law from making the claim and will face a two-year jail sentence if they defy the edict, which comes into force in the UK next month.

So the great EU braintrust makes it a jailable offense to claim that water can prevent dehydration.
Yet so many on the left thing the government should run everything because Barrack Obama went to Harvard!


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Sad but true Porchfish. Well stated IMO. I just wish you are wrong, however, that is not the case in today's America.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

But Dirt, most of those buying ""cheap tools from HF" are doing so because the average wages for the American "middle class" have been FLAT for nearly 3-decades and these folks have been forced into buying lower on the economic ladder than they would like, because of those FLAT wages.

Now we are in that "Catch 22" in that this "middle class" as we like to think of ourselves (incorrectly) cannot afford quality tools. The "middle class" did NOT cause this, yet they are being accused of doing just that. Just another great deception by those with the gold (read top 1-2%'rs).


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

I will say this - I don't give a rat's backside about what anybody says. The peoples of America (and I include Canada in this) and a lot of folks around the world have an attitude of, "I will do whatever it takes to achieve my goals, whatever they are!" LJs are an example of this. We do our jobs - doctors, scientists, woodworkers, plumbers, computers, architects, pick an industry, then we do what we love to do, we create.

Some of the people here have shops (personal and commercial) that are fantastic, some keep their entire shop in closets, while others have a couple of carving tools-and look at the fantastic things they create.

No one can tell me that Americans have lost their desire, ambitions, and goals - the people that say this have no idea where to look. The difference is that it is not in the open where during R.R. times and other high production times it was chartable. If what Obama said were true, people would not be buying the equipment that they are. They are just buying in manageable amounts - no credit hits here, all cash.

People are stepping back to basics, hand tools - why, because the power tools are expensive to buy, operate and maintain. People are tired of sitting around doing nothing, as Obama declares, they ARE doing quite a bit. People are realizing that simple is not bad - but quality is paramount. The mass produced stuff are a great start but the finish is what counts.

I don't care what the government does, it is the people that make it happen and when given the opportunity, we will always overcome any and all obstacles.


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Mike - wages have been flat for three decades - 
maybe maybe not - depends upon the person, location, etc… If the individual puts out the effort to do better, goes out and gets the education, training, or selectively chooses their job goals, THEY will not stay at the same salary.

Oh, commercial HVAC in this area (used to be my chosen trade but I moved on), three decades ago I made $14.00 an hour with overtime, now - at the same skill level, they make $55.00 an hour + overtime. So, I guess there is no increase from $30,000 to $110,000 a year (for the working class, I might add).


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Mike it is true throughout history that people bought what they could afford.
Even in the 60's there was a market for a VW Bug as individual economics dictate

What I see as a missing key in Fish's analysis is that 30 years ago, the US industrial base really operated in a vacuum. We were just getting hot and heavy into Japanese electronics, and Asian Cars were becoming more common nationwide rather than just a california thing.
However leading up to this changes that the governement would make had a direct effect on the economy because we were isolated from the rest of the world - so we had FAR more control.

Now that everything is international - the whole system is fluid… More like a waterbed - apply pressure in one spot and the water moves to another area.

We are used to running the show - now we have to compete, and that is difficult.
Set aside Harbor Freight and look a little higher - - - Grizzly vs Delta for tablesaws. people can (will) argue that the Unisaw is the greatest thing since sliced bread, but is the Grizzly really a cheap POS?? I think not.

So How does Delta compete with Grizzly?
(a) Go the cant beat them so join them and mov production.
(b) Stay in Tennessee but go after cost….mainly labor! So either wages are flat or Automation gets rid of people.

or
(c) Have the government control the market so that tarriffs make grizzly more expensive than Delta.

All approaches have merits and negatives
All will take time, so IF you were CEO of DELTA TODAY….. what do you do?


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

I have been reluctant to post in this thread because it just semmed to be a political slanging match, but some of the recent posts by jim c, Porchfish and DrDirt have been refressing, if not absolutely correct in my view.

To state that the Presient is the elected leader of the world is BS, it's only in the minds of the American public, he wasn't elected or chosen by other countries. Friends no longer seeking advice is because they have seen what the US has got them into (wars and bad debt laundering). As far as *equal rights are* concerned, the US did not invent the notion and came very late to the table following other nation's adoption of the principle.

Yes, just tinkering with the economy will not achieve anything, it has to be completely changed.
As I see it America is run by a new set of aristocrats, who instead of the term Empire Building, prefer the term Extending Freedom ….....*it's got to be a Duck.*

As I have stated before, the US during and after WW2 was blessed with inexhaustable export demands, but did not have the sense to realize that the gravy train would stop once the world got back on it's feet and could again become self reliant. Very arrogant and foolish.

Yes, we are our own worst enemy, we demand cheap everything, which can only be achieved by importing and sending manufacturing overseas to friendly and non friendly countries and even those that don't support "*equal rights*" and in some cases us *slavery*. By being so greedy we ignore the US priciples, what does that say of us?

Like I said, this whole problem is complicated by people not seeing the writing on the wall and doing the right thing. In reality it is a very simple answer, we need to be self reliant as much as we can, we need to get manufacturing back and we all need to be united and suffer the pain equally if we are ever going to suceed.

God Help America.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

dbray45:
You are correct, the American worker can be relied upon to pull his weight and take pride in his work, whatever that might be. He/she are putting out their best, but are just exasperated that their country does all it can to make their hard work, null and void.


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

And harder


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

Rex
You couldn't have said it better.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Dirt, I agree with nearly all of what you were saying, though I felt you were inferring that Americans "bought cheap" out of choice and not out of necessity. Wages have truly been flat for the middle and lower classes, and only the top %5 made significant gains in the last 30 years:

SOURCE: Economic Policy Institute
As shown in Figure A, the wage trends in the 2000s represent a pronounced downshift for middle- and low-wage workers relative to the late 1990s. The figure plots low, middle, and high wages, corresponding to the 10th, 50th (median), and 95th percentiles, with each series indexed to 100 in 1973.1 (*In other words, the graph is adjusted for inflation*)









• Real wages have been stagnant for many workers in the 2000s. After rising quickly in the second half of the 1990s, most workers real wages have been stagnant in the 2000s, especially since 2003. This result holds for a wide variety of wage and compensation measurements, including those that add the value of fringe benefits.

• The productivity/wage gap has grown. The gap between productivity growth and workers wages, especially those of middle- and low-wage workers, is at a historically high level.

• Wage growth has been unequal. Wage growth in the 2000s followed a highly unequal pattern, and higher-wage workers gained the most ground.

• Despite low unemployment, workers' bargaining power has diminished. Though the unemployment rate has been low in historical terms, it does not capture the erosion of employment relative to the population caused by weak growth in (or withdrawal from) the labor force over the past few years. The bottom line is that many workers still lack the bargaining power to claim their fair share of the productivity growth they themselves are helping to create. This is partly due to weak job creation over the course of this recovery.

• More downward pressure on wage growth is likely. The recent slowing of productivity growth and rising unemployment are likely to place further pressure on most workers' real wages in the near to medium terms.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

A lot of people do buy cheap by choice. They evaluate the value.

I can physically afford a European Combo machine/ sliding table saw….but *chose* something lower.

I bought the Harbor Freight 12 inch disc Sander.
Could have bought Jet, Delta, Powermatic…. I just looked at how much I would use it and recognize that it is really just a motor with a sanding platen on the shaft… no belts/pulleysor anyting, so didn't WANT to spend a buttload of cash for one…. so I CHOSE to buy a cheaper one.

Fact is likeley those who really are dirt poor are not setting up a woodworking shop in their garages.

As to your graph - wages for the top earners (who mainly earn from stock market capital gains) has been declining since 2007.
As a general trend wages and the market track eachother. So if you look at the DOW from 2001-2011 you would see it is flat too.

The thing graphs like this miss is the affect of the High wage jobs moving overseas.
So when the high wage earner " drops out of the calculation" because their job moved and they have had to take a lower paying job - that muddies the picture that most workers are still getting annual wage increases.
Our school district budget is up 12% from last year to this year (teacher salaries are not and actual enrollement is down)

Point is it is hard to say that lost jobs is the same as flat wages in a global market


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

dbray mentioned the good ethics of the American worker, which are valid. But what about the companies and their products?
Made in the USA still means quality, and proudly manufactured and sold everywhere. So how come some companies and manufacturers decided they could obtain the same quality and pride, where inferior goods manufactured overseas, with serious quality and labor skills, could replace any previously great product as those made in the USA. Think of it, American companies with a great brand name, not making anything in the USA.

Somewhere along the way our industries dumped the pride and skills of their well known products for absolute greed. Under these circumstances it won't even matter if our great American workforce swings back onto action as they have already been sold down the river. Maybe we should be building dams?


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## SCOTSMAN (Aug 1, 2008)

I think we have the same problem in Britain and Europe too many years before this will improve? MY two cents sorry it was not better news all round.Still we are giving the real cause of this problem bankers big untaxed bonuses Why ? .It's definitely not obamas fault.Alistair


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

I generally agree with your point Roger, but ask the following - looking at tablesaws.
Is the Delta made in Tennessee, really better made, better fit/finish, longer lasting than the Powermatic 2000? or the Sawstop both made in Taiwan?

Festool is not made in USA but is great stuff but expensive.

We as a country bring in a lot of cheap crap from Asia, but you should see where they really are technologically, the Crap they send is made to the walmart spec of cheapest of the cheapest of the cheap (low prices always!)....so we get what we are willing to pay for.
All of these countries are CAPABLE of making products every bit as good as what we make here in the USA.
Hey we made the Ford Pinto and my first car a 1974 Mustang II. Not exactly global class leading technology and workmanship


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

dbray45 & cr1:
Both of you guys make valid points and underscores the dilemma we find ourselves in.
A work that comes into mind is complacency, in some areas, especially in the car industry, manufacturers laughed at the vehicles of modern design from overseas and kept on deciding that they knew what the American public really wanted - mechanically ancient designed vehicles with yearly cosmetic changes, they were not prepared to explore or produce new technology and new ideas. Suddenly all those imports which had been scoffed at became very popular with people because they were well designed, well made, reliable and took advantage of new technology.
Still our factories churned out the same old crap leading to sales dives and eventually going bust. Yeah the claim of overhead costs did not help, but if sales could have been maintained, then that would have been a non-issue.

Yes it is true that some of the countries can and do produce products that are on par with anything made in the US. I don't think the Chinese Space program uses stuff it makes for Wal-Mart. 
Germany takes enormous pride in it's engineering and quality, not just in big stuff, but with everything they make. Mercedes makes luxury vehicles as well as trucks, vans and even the 2 seat midget Smart car, so they really do make well engineered and reliable v?


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

@Roger, I agree with every word you just said, but I would like to add that the poor domestic auto makers have also been subject to our (US consumers) fickle whims and phobias. Because of bad diesel engines in cars in the early 80's, GM never really got over that (even yet IMO). Ford had problems with some of their earlier diesels in trucks. Look at the diesel passenger car sales in Europe. Look at all the cars they (Europe) field to their domestic customers that have turbos and / or superchargers.

Many Americans chose large + powerful + cheap for far too long. Full size trucks still rule the sales tallies.

Every time something extraneous happens (gas prices, bad economic times, the green movement) to change our buying mood and criteria, the poor bastards just barely get re-tooled before it blows over and we go back to large + powerful + cheap.

For all the things they haven't done, it is quite amazing at the number of vehicles available today that give both improved gas mileage AND horsepower over 1 hp per cubic inch. That is amazing.

And the worst car today will last much longer than those from the heyday of US dominance, through the muscle car years and even into and through the 80's.

I'm not taking up for our automakers… only making a point. And one more: Everybody I've talked with in our truck-heavy business just wishes somebody would make a turbo diesel mid-sized truck with high torque and low horsepower that get good gas mileage. If Jeep had brought back the comanche and put the diesel that was available for the Liberty (30+ miles per gallon and almost as much torque as the hemi gas engine) then we would all have one. And make a crew version (the size of the Tacoma) and by God the wife would have one, too (and like it).

Ok. Carry on. ;=)


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

I never thought such a simple question would make a thread that would last this long its a far cry from the 5k reponces in the hand planes of your dreams thread but 500 is not to shabby. thanks to all of you for making the thread fun and argumentative it wouldn't be the same with out you to argue with.

Mikey I don't know if you copied this vomit from from the same source as the graph

•* Despite low unemployment, workers' bargaining power has diminished. Though the unemployment rate has been low in historical terms, it does not capture the erosion of employment relative to the population caused by weak growth in (or withdrawal from) the labor force over the past few years. The bottom line is that many workers still lack the bargaining power to claim their fair share of the productivity growth they themselves are helping to create.*

If you think 25percent is low unemployment you really have been drinking the KoolAid and its too late for you. even this damn administration claims a unemployment number of 10 percent and thousands of workers are loosing their unemployment benefit with no where to go for work and still you spew this class warfare crap your rhetoric is as old as Obummers and you probably blame bush for this too problem is he has been gone for 3 years and if you have no bargaining power you have no skill . the skilled worker gets paid their fair share as a rn i make 55 dollars an hour not to bad for a guy with an associates degree in my new venture as a clnc i will be making 150 an hour and i wont have to work full time to pull in 100k a year I bargained for this wage myself and i accept full responsibility for my own success i will pay my own way thanks and i would think an administrator like your self could bring in a decent wage and stop whining about the rich


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

CR1: I'm confused Mike.
Who cares what some segment of the population earns?
It's none of anybody's bloody business.

If that were ACTUALLY TRUE, then you are beyond hope. What a BS statement from someone who claims such high amounts of knowledge. We are talking about the MAJORITY of the populace. Just more, more, and more "high school debate" practice, regardless of the side of the argument you are on…"object" to what ever is said…


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Dud! Pay attention! It was cited and linked… but oh! I forgot, you are NOT computer literate (some of your grammar shows just that).

But hey, thanks for the kudos on my workbench project. You do pay attention on occasion. *;-)* BTW, put something up of your own, it would be nice to see what you can do.


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## NateX (Mar 13, 2010)

Just sayin….


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

all you do Mikey is blab insults you never answer the question at hand. I know your smarter than that even if i don't agree with your left wing crap. the problem you have is you have succeeded and then for what ever reason quit trying or lost your quality job. I don't have to say this but it is true its like your slumming like your ashamed of your success in your field of education. I am sure you worked hard got through college and graduated with a degree of some sort to be a principal in California pays about 6 figures. that is nothing to be ashamed of Mike I don't get your need to be on the side of the left that wants to keep you down and have every failure paid the same as you with all you have done to rise above the norm these are republican values. It is always a slam by you mike you never address the question and you do this because you are a success and your ashamed to be the success. stop that and be proud of your accomplishments you don't need to lie with the dogs to prove you had humble beginnings you rose to the occasion and made it why you aren't a educator now has me wondering what went wrong why do you need to Waller in the muck beneath your station. and on your post where you cited the graph and information that was from 2007 well before the rise of unemployment caused by obummer your data was too old to be relevant and i may not be strong on grammar but i can do tons more on a computer than you can I make computers and set up novel networks and repair cpus you have barely masterd the cut and paste you cant even write codeas simple as html let alone c++


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

This seems like an excellent time for this again!


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## Woodbum (Jan 3, 2010)

I am well informed, care about our country and I VOTE. But for the life of me, I can't understand why political discourse must permeate everything we do and think about anymore. I think that issues discusssions are important, but I can't even visit lumber jocks without some zealot, right or left blaming our current woes on someone or some group. Save this S-- for a political site and for a brief moment, stop hating someone or something. There. I'm off my soapbox and I'm going to a different forum.


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## Woodbum (Jan 3, 2010)

If you need to ask…


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

@Bertha, Yours is kind of creepy IMO. This is the way it's done:


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

Ok Al I am stumped I have nothing to say as i just don't get the two boys thing they look like twins or close in age brothers. but i am getting old maybe they are Sadie Hawkins daters dressed alike what is with the pose on the desk I think David is right it seems a little creepy I always thought those dummys were creepy too.

Now I would like to hear Plans for improving our faltering state, and for the guy who doesn't like political threads it is his choice to skip over the thread was doing fine by its self. it doesn't need censorship from a person who is afraid of the truth being told in this hard hitting thread anytime the left and right converge there will be name calling hatred for the other persons views and ill will between left wing people and the Right we have our own beliefs and we will never agree thank god for the swing voters who dont know what the hell they want from day to day 3 years ago Obummer was their love affair today he is a bum even to many left wing people they realize he is not just left wing he is a socialist and this even scares my left wing friends they all regret their choice many saying they screwed up an that Hillery was the right choice 36 months ago. and the left blew it it was their election to loose as the whole country was tired of the problems we had which all seem minor today as we sink into a quagmire of socialism.who is going to lead us out where did Joe go at least Joe had a message and a choice for president is Cain the man or he he just a token black republican or is he really the right guy and with him their is no doubt he is an American.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

2 1/2 DUD SAID: Ok Al I am stumped I have nothing to say as i just don't get the two boys thing they look like twins or close in age brothers. but i am getting old maybe they are Sadie Hawkins daters dressed alike what is with the pose on the desk I think David is right it seems a little creepy I always thought those dummys were creepy too.

Geez you self proclaimed computer guru, YOU don't understand Photoshopped images of Bill Gates?! Give me a friggin' break! BUSTED!

GEEZ MAN, GET A LIFE….


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

that don't look like Bill Gates but i would leave it to you to know what he looked like as a child i think you have an affinity foe nerdy boys Mikey


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Bill Gates was hardly a child at the time. Microsoft just went public, but you the self-proclaimed computer guru pleads ignorance?

http://www.freeinfosociety.com/article.php?id=74
In 1986, Microsoft became a publicly traded company and many investors jumped on the boat in anticipation of the growing computer market. The IPO price was $21 per share and Bill became a millionaire that same day.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

@cr1 Ya its likely true though i know O bummer has no chance of winning and it wont be the first time that the dems have tried to unseat their own sitting president. If Hillory was to run he would fire her as secratary of state and she has been the one shining star of his administration I think the only reason no one has wacked Obummer is that they know Biden is more of a wacko and we dont need that

Do you remember when Obummer wrote an executive order to close Gitmo in a year and now its still open 3 years later. This guy has done nothing but raised Taxes and I dont need to pay more tax money so people like mikey have free healthcare for a 4 year hitch in the navy. Too many bad things to be able to recover from hope and change I am feeling ill from this hope and change just more liberal BS and maybe Hillary could get elected, what is Obumers job approval down to now it has to be awful low doesn't it.


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## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

It has been pointed out to me that there is some major mud-slinging/name-calling and personal attacks on this thread.

Scanning through the discussion, I am not impressed by how my fellow LumberJocks are treating each other.

Debating and voicing passionate beliefs is one thing but being disrespectful is not cool!


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

MsDebbie
I have seen none of that
I think this has been a very thoughtful, intelligent, friendly discussion on differences of opinion.
Heavens, if I thought there was any animosity, I would have reported it immediately!


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## retiredandtired (Mar 10, 2011)

I agree Ms. Deb.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

At 522 posts, someone must appreciate it. No one here has been vicious, even Mikey.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Yeah, sure Rocky… Uh huh…'shore…

Rocky SAID:
#252: _Mike, you are an idiot, I never supported what you are implying…


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## patron (Apr 2, 2009)

GREAT TRUTHS

1. In my many years I have come to a conclusion that one useless man is a shame, two is a law firm and three or more is a congress.
- John Adams

2. If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed, if you do read the newspaper you are misinformed.
- Mark Twain

3. Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But then I repeat myself.
- Mark Twain

4. I contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle.
- Winston Churchill

5. A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul.
- George Bernard Shaw

6. A liberal is someone who feels a great debt to his fellow man, which debt he proposes to pay off with your money.
- G. Gordon Liddy

7. Democracy must be something more than two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner.
- James Bovard, Civil Libertarian (1994)

8. Foreign aid might be defined as a transfer of money from poor people in rich countries to rich people in poor countries.
- Douglas Casey, Classmate of Bill Clinton at Georgetown University

9. Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys.
- P.J. O'Rourke, Civil Libertarian

10. Government is the great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else.
- Frederic Bastiat, French economist(1801-1850)

11. Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
- Ronald Reagan (1986)

12. I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts.
- Will Rogers

13. If you think health care is expensive now, wait until you see what it costs when it's free!
- P.J. O'Rourke

14. In general, the art of government consists of taking as much money as possible from one party of the citizens to give to the other.
- Voltaire (1764)

15. Just because you do not take an interest in politics doesn't mean politics won't take an interest in you!
- Pericles (430 B.C.)

16. No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session.
- Mark Twain (1866)

17. Talk is cheap… except when Congress does it.
- Anonymous

18. The government is like a baby's alimentary canal, with a happy appetite at one end and no responsibility at the other.
- Ronald Reagan

19. The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of the blessings. The inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing of misery.
- Winston Churchill

20. The only difference between a tax man and a taxidermist is that the taxidermist leaves the skin.
- Mark Twain

21. The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
- Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)

22. There is no distinctly Native American criminal class… save Congress.
- Mark Twain

23. What this country needs are more unemployed politicians.
- Edward Langley, Artist (1928-1995)

24. A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have.
- Thomas Jefferson

25. We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office.
- Aesop


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

as i stated Obamas aproval rate did hit the lowest mark in his 11th quarter the other day acording to Gallop it was at 38 and that it the lowest since Carter who had 31 and Obamma has a disaproval rate of 48 way worse than gw its clear that his days are numbered

Newt has a new rating of power points at 20 while Romney is at 11 and Cain is at 14 in a slide from 35 right before the sex scandal recall that Clinton harassed and raped women while being governor of Arkansas and he still got elected and went on to cheat on his wife in the white house with Monica ruining a pretty blue dress at the same time and his approval rating was still higher than Obummers and he must rebound to a 50 by next quarter to have a chance in the election it is unlikely he can recover that far unless there is some huge windfall like back to back job growth of 10 million jobs a month or another terror attack and a great response from the administration. Or the complete release of the fact that we have help from aliens or some off the wall success which would be a miracle maybe he should step aside and let Hillary have the nomination she might make a race of it at least. My not Wacko liberal friends are looking for an alternate candidate they say he blew it and they aren't sending him any money this election time


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

Of the Reps in the running, Newt has always appeared to be the smartest, probably the best informed and truly understands the subject matters of which he speaks, and is probably the best debater as well.

I say too soon to make any serious bets, though. The dems know all too well the tactics of "divide and conquer".

Already the Reps may get divided by the teabaggers (how bad will depend on the candidates). Then, other conservatives might split off and run Independent and siphon away some more votes (Disgruntled former New Mexico governor Gary Johnson says he is considering leaving the Republican slate and running as a third-party candidate in the 2012 presidential election.). Even the OW crowd may siphon votes in that they may vote against Reps by voting for Obamahahaha.

Too soon.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Newt also had the most wives and affairs, as well a having had an illegal sexual relationship with his high school Geometry teacher WHILE HE WAS HER STUDENT IN HER CLASS. Newt was even having another affair while he was blasting Slick Willie for his. Newt should be *"newt"*ered in the REAL sense, IMO.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Hmm… something to consider:

*Congressional Republican Approval Has Plummeted 21 Points Since January*
SOURCE: http://www.politicususa.com/en/approval-of-congressional-republicans-has-1-points-since-january

The PPP/Kos/SEIU poll found that approval of Congressional Republicans has fallen to 25%. After the way they handled the debt ceiling, disapproval of the Republican Congress has jumped to 65%. Congressional Republicans took office in January with a 33% approval rating and a 52% disapproval rating. The Republican members have collectively lost 21 points of approval in less than eight months. Both John Boehner and Congressional Republicans lost 10 points of approval in a week.

On the other side of the aisle Congressional Democrats have stayed exactly where they were in February, 33% approve and 57% disapprove. Harry Reid gained 8 points of approval over the past week, and Nancy Pelosi lost two points of approval, which is within the margin of error, so her numbers remain unchanged. Despite the GOP's best efforts to blame Obama, the President's job approval rating has remained unchanged over the past week. Obama gained one point in approval, and two points in disapproval to leave him at a net (-1).


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

Even Chris Matthews is wondering why O'Bammy wants a second term.
There actually are Dems who wlll vote Rep to put the country before party.
Now that's refreshing.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Matthews is upset because he thought we would all be driving a Prius by now and working at turning recycled goods into art or assembling solar panels.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

^I looked at a Prius. But $28,000 goes a long way toward a truck, lol.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*I have watched my net worth shrink to an alarming low as all my property's have shrunk in value to a depression style low* Dude, I saw that coming. That is why I am no longer a R ;-))


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Of course, I saw it coming 15 -20 years ago.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Cr1…would you not increase your carbon footprint in that configuration?

Besides, if you paid your fair share of taxes, you should not have $28k to spend so foolishly.

Get with the program already.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

I looked at the Prius to do my part for planet earth and to become green…............NOT

I bought a 2012 Mustang 5.0 412HP convertible.
Had it one week and pulled the differential and dropped 4.10 gears to make it faster. Larger air intake is next.
Drove it down to FL from IL in November and got a whopping 20.5 MPG.

I'm doing my part for the economy.
I'm a guy with a few bucks helping out.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Chevy 2500HD stock, 13 mpg, making my footprint


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

When will all you "cage'rs" ever learn that 2-wheels are better than 4-wheels. Why ride a pony at the Fair when you can have the Whole Hawg… Just sayin'

And yeah, I dropped a high performance EV-51 cam, Branch Heads with larger ported/polished valves, 10:1 high compression pistons, roller rockers, high output tunable ignition, larger performance jetted Mikuni Carb, plus additional chrome and leather for the Halibut. Still can get 40mpg when I drive/ride nice.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

Had Sportsters, Softails etc.
Then I saw the light, Lordy, Lordy


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

But a Sportster is a "chick" bike!... Big Twins all the way!


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

ya i do my part i drive a ford escape highbred 40k for that bad boy 31 mpg up to 40 in town I am no tree hugger though i am in favor of planting hardwood trees for future woodworkers


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Bertha, I get 17 mpg in my F150…i feel inferior now


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Rocky,
Well Doah!... 17mpg?

I just love these "NON-treehugger" types that want to belong to LJs. It kind of seems like Mrs. Braxton's favorite Son JOE, if you know what I mean. Personally, I would rather be up front and honest.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

Rocky,
13 is OK, look at what that rig can do !


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

I did Jim, hence my inferiority complex.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

I have a buddy with a UniMog. Whenever I start feeling capable in my truck, I think of him. Like Mike suggests, he's quite honest about his contribution to Goreble Warming.










There's also that new Ford, for the Ford lovers here. I myself am neutral on the Ford v Chevy debate; the Chevy was simply cheaper on that day of shopping.










That Raptor looks pretty capable, lol.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

^Yeah, the Ford Superduty has the nicest looks around, IMO. That grill on the Raptor would be the first to go. I think you could build something more capable for the price of the Raptor. I'm still looking for an old Defender that I can bring back to life. They're pretty scarce around here. The closest Unimog I've found was in Texas.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Yeah Al, that Ford has those "Knight Rider" Trans Am lights in the grill. But are you SURE you are up to being another David Hasselhoff (AKA Michael Knight)? *;-)*


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

CR1 SAID: I like the look of ford better than the others. Not the raptor though. That big Name Plate across the front would bug me.

But, but, but… wasn't Gerald FORD your man? *;-)*

Oh THAT's right… HENRY Ford was a Democrat!


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

It really only matters what affiliation Hasselhoff is.

I'm thinking democrat, lol


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

Another "Star" Dem


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

And one for good measure


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

*Here you go JIM, a "few" Famous Republikans for you.*

Mark Foley








Elliott Spitzer








Chris Lee









*2002: Rudy Giuliani,* former mayor of New York, became an international hero after the 9/11 terrorist attacks but he was a goat to his wife, Donna Hanover, because his mistress, Judith Nathan, was by his side for every photo op. Their affair had been splashed all over the tabloids the year before, so the mayor just admitted it and carried on as though he weren't married. Senior city officials said Guiliani provided a city car for Nathan's private use and allowed her to use a police driver as her personal chauffeur. Giuliani and Nathan are now married.

*2004: Jack Ryan* dropped out of the Illinois senate race against Barack Obama after divorce papers surfaced in which his ex-wife, Jeri Ryan, complained that he took her to sex clubs and tried to force her to have sex with him in front of other patrons. He blamed the media, but he was not even close to Obama in the polls, even before the sex scandal erupted.

*2005: Don Sherwood (R-Pa.*) was forced to admit to a five-year affair with Cynthia Ore after a Consitutiion Party opponent released a 2004 police report in which the congressman was accused of choking his mistress at his Washington D.C. apartment. In 2006, Sherwood lost his seat to Chris Carney, the first Democrat to represent the 10th district since 1960.

*2006: Mark Foley (R-Fla.)*, who introduced a bill to outlaw web sites featuring sexually suggestive images of preteen children, was chairman of the House Caucus on Missing and Exploited Children when he was caught sending sexuality explicit messages and emails to underage male pages. He was forced to resign and later came out as gay. He is now selling real estate.

*2007: David Vitter (R-La.),* who has argued for ethics reform throughout his career, was exposed as a former client of "D.C. Madam" Deborah Jeane Palfrey's prostitution ring. She even called him during roll-call votes. The conservative Senator also was a regular at a New Orleans brothel according to the madam who ran it. Vitter admitted to "very serious sin" but said God and his wife had forgiven him. He is still a member of the U.S. Senate.

*2007: Larry Craig (R-Idaho)*, who once called former President Bill Clinton "a naughty boy" for his Oval Office tryst with Monica Lewinsky, was arrested for lewd conduct with another man in a bathroom stall at Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport. Craig did not resign from the U.S. Senate, but he did not seek reelection in 2008. He voted against same-sex marriage rights and continues to adamantly deny being gay despite evidence of man-on-man liaisons and innuendo dating back to 1967.

*2008: Vito Fossella (R-N.Y.)* was thrown out of a bar, arrested for drunk driving, locked up in jail, and then bailed out by his mistress-retired Air Force officer Lt. Col. Laura Fay. He denied the affair but finally had to admit he was the father of Fay's 3-year old child. Fossella served out his term in the House, which ended in January 2009, but did not seek reelection.

*2009: John Ensign (R-Nev.),* a Christian conservative who once said he would have resigned if he were in Larry Craig's position, turned a tawdry affair with campaign staffer Cynthia Hampton into a possible crime when he did not report paying her and her husband $96,000 to go away. The husband, Doug Hampton, worked for Ensign as a Senate aide. He said Senator Tom Coburn (R-Okla.) encouraged Ensign to end the affair and compensate the couple so they could relocate. The case is still under investigation by the Senate Ethics Committee.

*2009: Mark Sanford,* Republican governor of South Carolina, took off for five days in June without telling anyone where he was, finally said he was hiking the Appalachian Trail, but turned out to be in Argentina visiting mistress María Belén Chapur on the taxpayers' dime. Sanford, who formerly represented his state's 1st Congressional District in Congress, humiliated his wife, Jenny Sanford, by blubbering to the press about Chapur being his "soul mate." Efforts to impeach him were voted down in committee. His wife filed for divorce in December.

*2009: Mike Duvall (R-Yorba Linda)*, a married family-values crusader who represented his Orange County district in the California State Assembly, inadvertently broadcast explicit remarks about his sexual conquests over an open microphone during a lull in a hearing in July. He resigned in September after a video of his lewd comments was posted on the Internet. The video describes in lurid detail women he had sex with, including one who appeared to be a lobbyist with business before the utilities committee on which Duvall sat as vice chairman.

Continue reading on Examiner.com Top 10 Republican sex scandals of the decade (photos) - National celebrity politics | Examiner.com http://www.examiner.com/celebrity-politics-in-national/top-10-republican-sex-scandals-of-the-decade-photos#ixzz1f1E3oYNJ


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

Elliott Spitzer


> ?


?


> ?


?


> ? Republican


?


> ?


?


> ?


?


> ?


??

There go's your credibility again.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

And now to get back on track *"Do we need a new President"*

Bad omens abound for President Obama in his quest to win reelection in 2012. The President will have an uphill battle in his bid for a second term when faced with these Top 10 Bad Signs.

1. Jobless rate: The unemployment rate is stubbornly stuck at around 9%, with no sign of abating. Obama is reduced to running around the country touting his phony jobs bill and blaming others (President Bush, Japanese tsunami, Arab Spring, European debt, Tea Party) for the sad state of affairs.

2. Fast and Furious: The gunrunning saga is playing out as a classic Washington scandal that keeps getting bigger as "who-knew-what-when" is unraveled. With pit bull Rep. Darrell Issa putting Eric Holder on the hot seat, and possible tentacles into the White House, expect this one to heat up during the President's reelection campaign.

3. Solyndra: The bankrupt solar-panel firm, which wasted half-a-billion dollars of taxpayer money while the White House was obsessed with a photo-op, is another scandal exploding at the worst time for Obama. Not only does it raise questions about the President steering federal funds to political supporters, it makes Obama's promise of a green-jobs revolution look hopelessly naïve.

4. Poll numbers: Obama's approval rating just keeps dropping, scraping the low-40s in poll after poll. Less than 20% of the population believes the country is on the right track. His base is depressed, he seemingly has lost the independent vote, and the enthusiasm of 2008 is gone for young voters.

5. Maxine Waters: It is cause for concern when the congresswoman from South Central Los Angeles goes on the attack against the first black President. His speech to the Congressional Black Caucus telling members to put on their slippers riled Waters, who complained that the President needs to understand the "pain and misery" the economy is causing. Also disillusioned are black voters who live in areas with high unemployment. Even a slightly depressed turnout in black areas will be a disaster on Election Day for Obama.

6. Herman Cain: The rise of support for Herman Cain from Republicans takes away one of Obama's campaign cards-that the Tea Party is filled with racists. Should Cain get the GOP nomination, Obama will be matched against a skilled orator who would likely get a chunk of the black vote.

7. ObamaCare: The Supreme Court will likely rule on ObamaCare next year, reminding voters of the unpopular legislation just as the presidential campaign is in the homestretch. No matter how the court rules, reigniting the debate over health care will not be a winning issue for Obama.

8. Occupy Wall Street: Obama and Democrats hope the anticapitalism rally on Wall Street will spur the progressive version of the Tea Party, reenergizing the liberal base. But the Woodstock crowd could easily descend toward anarchy and make the Democratic convention next year in Charlotte, N.C., look the 1968 convention in Chicago, where Yippie-led riots ultimately aided Richard Nixon's election.

9. Attack Watch: The Obama campaign outsmarted itself when it rolled out the AttackWatch website that asked citizens to send in examples of smears against the President. The venture quickly became an Internet joke, with a massive Twitter response that mocked the site. A typical tweet: "There's a new Twitter account making President Obama look like a creepy, authoritarian nut-job,"

10. Collapsing presidency: It is never good for an incumbent seeking reelection to have stories that speculate about his mental health. But stories in the media are questioning whether the President has lost interest in the job. The New York Post recently wrote that Obama is becoming increasingly isolated: "President Obama has become a lone wolf, a stranger to his own government … an isolated man trapped in a collapsing presidency."


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

THAT's right Jim. I had gotten all caught up in the Right Wing bloodfest that I misprinted.

Notorious right-wing political trickster Roger Stone has claimed to be the initial source who told the FBI about Spitzer's dalliances with hookers (and he's definitely the source of the scurrilous knee-socks allegation). Although Stone was an aide and confidante to state Sen. Joe Bruno, one of Spitzer's biggest Albany foes, Stone says he heard about the whole thing on his own, at random, from a hooker in a Miami nightclub. (Given Stone's background and reputation, that part of the story is strangely believable.) Add up all these billionaires, rogues and past and future indictees - along with a scandal-plagued Justice Department at the tail end of the George W. Bush era, eager to claim the scalp of a leading Democrat - and the whole thing looks overdetermined, as the Marxists say.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

The Senate will also go to a rep. majority as Obama either resigns or gets swamped.
Republican Presidency, Senate and House.

It has a nice ring to it.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Straw man argument by the Baggers…


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## lumberdog (Jun 15, 2009)

I would like to think that people would understand that Bush had 8 yrs, to get us into this mess, and now they expect president Obama to get us out of it in 4 yrs., while the republicans are fighting him all the way.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

Lumberdog
I'm surprised you're not still blaming Truman for the ill's of the country in 1951.
Get over the Bush bashing.
Obama is now the mess.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

@jim hey bro i saw this and said what did i miss can you please fill me in* 2. Fast and Furious: The gunrunning saga is playing out as a classic Washington scandal that keeps getting bigger as "who-knew-what-when" is unraveled. With pit bull Rep. Darrell Issa putting Eric Holder on the hot seat, and possible tentacles into the White House, expect this one to heat up during the President's reelection campaign.*

Is this the same game he learnd running guns in chi town say it aint so Hanity should be yelling about this but i havent seen any of it for days so what is up with this

I cant wait till the primary gets here i wonder who will still be running when the primary hits lala land you see it is my most important election cause Californians are so dumb they still believe in hope and change


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

Maybe Obama's and the leftie's worst nightmare….......and no teleprompter

http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=qtjfMjjce2Y


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

*AND CLINTON'S NATIONAL BUDGET WAS IN THE BLACK WITH A SURPLUS*

1. Republican Leaders Agree U.S. Default Would Be a "Financial Disaster" 
2. *Ronald Reagan Tripled the National Debt*
3. *George W. Bush Doubled the National Debt*
4. Republicans Voted Seven Times to Raise Debt Ceiling for President Bush
5. Federal Taxes Are Now at a 60 Year Low
6. Bush Tax Cuts Didn't Pay for Themselves or Spur "Job Creators" 
7. Ryan Budget Delivers Another Tax Cut Windfall for Wealthy
8. Ryan Budget Will Require Raising Debt Ceiling - Repeatedly
9. Tax Cuts Drive the Next Decade of Debt
10. *$3 Trillion Tab for Unfunded Wars Remains Unpaid (from "W" Bush)*


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

What party was the majority in congress when the budget was balanced under Clinton?


> ?


??


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

*Ronald Reagan Tripled the National Debt*
Among the Republicans who prophesied the default doomsday scenario was none other than conservative patron saint, Ronald Reagan. As he warned Congress in November 1983:

"The full consequences of a default-or even the serious prospect of default-by the United States are impossible to predict and awesome to contemplate. Denigration of the full faith and credit of the United States would have substantial effects on the domestic financial markets and the value of the dollar."

Reagan knew what he was talking about. After all, the hemorrhage of red ink at the U.S. Treasury was his doing.

As most analysts predicted, Reagan's massive $749 billion supply-side tax cuts in 1981 quickly produced even more massive annual budget deficits. Combined with his rapid increase in defense spending, Reagan delivered not the balanced budgets he promised, but record-setting debt. Even his OMB alchemist David Stockman could not obscure the disaster with his famous "rosy scenarios."

Forced to raise taxes eleven times to avert financial catastrophe, the Gipper nonetheless presided over a tripling of the American national debt to nearly $3 trillion. By the time he left office in 1989, Ronald Reagan more than equaled the entire debt burden produced by the previous 200 years of American history. It's no wonder Stockman lamented last year:

"[The] debt explosion has resulted not from big spending by the Democrats, but instead the Republican Party's embrace, about three decades ago, of the insidious doctrine that deficits don't matter if they result from tax cuts."

It's no wonder the Gipper cited the skyrocketing deficits he bequeathed to America as his greatest regret.

*THEN WE GET TO THE "W"-- *
*George W. Bush Doubled the National Debt*
Following in Reagan's footsteps, George W. Bush buried the myth of Republican fiscal discipline.

Inheriting a federal budget in the black and CBO forecast for a $5.6 trillion surplus over 10 years, President George W. Bush quickly set about dismantling the progress made under Bill Clinton. Bush's $1.4 trillion tax cut in 2001, followed by a $550 billion second round in 2003, accounted for the bulk of the yawning budget deficits he produced. (It is more than a little ironic that Paul Ryan ten years ago called the tax cuts too small because he believed the estimated surplus Bush eviscerated would be even larger.)










Like Reagan and Stockman before him, Bush resorted to the rosy scenario to claim he would halve the budget deficit by 2009. Before the financial system meltdown last fall, Bush's deficit already reached $490 billion. (And even before the passage of the Wall Street bailout, Bush had presided over a $4 trillion increase in the national debt, a staggering 71% jump.) By January 2009, the mind-numbing deficit figure reached $1.2 trillion, forcing President Bush to raise the debt ceiling to $11.3 trillion.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Newt Gingrich met his first wife, Jackie Battley, while he was still in high school. Battley was his geometry teacher, and seven years his senior. (According to Gingrich's second wife Marianne Ginther, the age difference was actually nine years-Gingrich was 16 when the student-teacher courtship began). Their secret relationship included nighttime dalliances in the back of a car. The pair married in 1962, and had two children before splitting in February 1980. According to Esquire, Gingrich served Battley with divorce papers while she was in the hospital recovering from uterine cancer.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

@cr1 ya newt surely is the debate king and he is very knowledgeable on all the right issues the dems may try to sling mud at him but they have no room to preach morality when Clinton was banging Monica in the white house and when he raped rhose women while he was Arkansas governor no I cant hear a word any dem pukes out they are brainless twits just like some people we all know


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

The leftties are the chief authors and supporters of moral relativity.

For them to stand on moral ground against anyone is just laughable.


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

I just love all you Obama haters that love to blame him for the situation this country is in. While I feel he hasn't lived up to all his hype (but what president really does), if you want to place blame for the condition this counrty is in, I put it square on the shoulders of the worst President in history GW Bush. Lets review his legacy, for all you Republicans that have convenient political amnesia…
911 happened on his watch
The way he handled Katrina
By the end of his 8 years the economy crashed like an old computer
He was the first to give bail out money to banks
He would be seen holding hands with Saudi oil barons

His administrations handling of the SEC and all the other agencies that are supposed to be watching out for what the banks and financial institutions are doing were asleep at the wheel while all the investment brokers were making up the rules and getting rich on the backs of the middle classes 401k's. He took a huge surplus at the end of the Clinton years and in 8 years and drove our country to the brink of the cliff, then jumped out and disappeared into the Texas sunset to kick tumbleweeds the rest of his life. You want to scream about Obamas excess in government? Bush quadrupled the size of the Gov. payroll when he came into office, giving all his buddies six figure salary jobs, on your dime. Obama took over the mess that was made by Bush….and if you think the cluster f**k that Bush spun this country into can be fixed in 4 years than you are dumber than him…


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

You people listen to the poison that is Rush too much….I wouldn't get my facts from an ex hillbilly heroin addict and the biggest liar and hypocrite on the planet..


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

I'm a Republican who thinks Rush is a clown and Obama's been dealt a losing hand. We're not all oblivious to the obvious.


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Al, you are of the minority then..I read allot of hype and screwed numbers on this thread..all from typical Republican smear sites..I love the one a few posts up that gives facts that there never was a Clinton surplus…ha! Did the page before that one contain information about the plot to bring down the Twin Towers or was it a guide to fitting your tin foil hat properly…

Fox News..fair and balanced…if you like lies and fantasy….


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Don't forget the Seals planting bombs in the New Orleans levee system, lol.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

But I still like to give Al a hard time for the fun of it *;-)*...

BTW Brad, I managed to find an instructional guide to the GOP Playbook:

*;-)*

Click Image To Open Link

|
V


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

LOL, Mike! Is that book available for Kindle?


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

*AL SAID: LOL, Mike! Is that book available for Kindle?*

Only if YOU live in a gated community… *;-)*


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Does a cattle gate count? I can promise that mine's the wrong gate to cross uninvited. I have to live up to my gun burying, ammo stockpiling, poor hating, elitist R ways, lol


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

*Why do so many people from the far left all seem to think that every one on the right listens to radio yatter heads like Limbaugh? ...They tell you to think these things and without asking so much as one tiny little critical question you swallow it wholesale and tell yourself that it's all true? ...I have never (read- N-E-V-E-R) spent one fraction of a second listening to Rush Limbaugh…
You people need to learn how to… *

More Straw Man arguments… Sounds much like Derailing for Dummies:

*Your Experience Is Not Representative Of Everyone*
Of course, straw man arguments are critical to any successful derailing of conversation. It's very important to discount the Marginalised Person's™ experience at every available opportunity. Apart from being simply outright hurtful and demeaning, it also forces them into a constant position of defence.
If a Marginalised Person™ gives you a personal testament, then you must immediately assume they are speaking on behalf of their entire group of people and be very quick to point out that it's wrong for them to do so.

It's a diversionary tactic, designed to get them denying your accusation and so forgetting to continue to argue their point.

You will find that something very important to Marginalised People™ is stressing the fact that they are not all the same. This is because Privileged People® have routinely lumped them all together as one great big monolithic group who all look the same, act the same, think the same, speak the same, dress the same, eat the same, feel the same - you get the idea. And, of course, all of those monolithic behaviours are "other" than those of the Privileged®. Othering is a process that permits Privileged People® to consider the Marginalised™ as less than human, thereby justifying discriminative and stigmatising behaviours against them. So naturally, it is imperative to a Marginalised Person™ to make it understood their group of people are as diverse in expression and experience as Privileged People®.

You can play on this concern by alarming and insulting them with the implication you think they are homogenising their own group.

It also works to suggest to them that their experience is worthless because it doesn't align with everyone's - particularly those that you've decided to favour. That is, the experiences that, to your mind, back up your prejudices. This is belittling and offensive in the extreme as you are essentially denying their reality. People's personal experiences are important to them, so it's likely they will, whilst getting increasingly hurt and upset, continue to try and defend and "prove" them to your exacting measures while you can bask in the satisfaction of knowing you have caused them distress.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

cr1
You do now.
I listen to Rush, along with 20MM others as often as I can.
And I'm not ashamed to say it. If he wasn't so incredibly popular, he wouldn't be hated and criticized by the left as much as he is.
And whoever the lefties criticize and hates, I'm all for.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

AL SAID: Does a cattle gate count? I can promise that mine's the wrong gate to cross uninvited. I have to live up to my gun burying, ammo stockpiling, poor hating, elitist R ways, lol


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Sheet, I kernt tell ya, Mike. Peektures ara blocked on dese here ka'puter


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

*CR1: Hey I ain't saying you ain't entitled to the ☭☭ bumper sticker nonsense ☭☭ but I ain't saying I'll respect it either.*

More Examples, Thanks CR1 !
Derailing for Dummies:
*Don't You Have More Important Issues To Think About*

When you're beginning to feel backed into a corner, you could do worse than to trot this one out.

As with the best of all these techniques, this step operates on several levels. First of all, it communicates to the Marginalised Person™ that you think the entire debate is trivial and below consideration, indicating you entirely disregard their feelings and emotions. Secondly, you disown responsibility for your part in the debate and anything that you've said that may have been discriminatory or offensive.

Finally, you reinforce your Privilege® by suggesting that it is Privileged People's® job to set the agenda for the Marginalised Group™. After all, how could they possibly know what issues they should prioritise for themselves, they're far too inferior and stupid! You, with your objective, ractional Privileged® perspective, on the other hand, know exactly what is most important and it is definitely not confronting you with your own bigotry and ignorance!


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

*CR1 SAID:*

911 happened on his watch
*BUT-Thanks to Bill Clinton who had OBL in his sights and like the coward he is chickened out*

The way he handled Katrina
*BUT-Thank Mayor Ray Nagan and the governor who were refusing to let the Fed in because they wanted to hold the power*

By the end of his 8 years the economy crashed like an old computer
*BUT-Thanks to the Democrats who wanted every worthless deadbeat parasite in America to have a Jumbo mortgage.*

Even More Examples of Derailing for Dummies:

*But It's True*

Simply trivialise your opponents argument by pointing out to them that whatever offensive/bigoted/ignorant/stereotyped thing you said or did that targeted a Marginalised Person: "but it's true!"

This is a one-size-fits-all retort that is very effective in how it redirects any argument into a neverending circular loop. You don't have to take on any of the points the Marginalised Person may raise, nor do you have to concede offence and apologise - you can disavow all responsibility by simply repeating, over and over, to any counter-claim or attempted correction and reasoning: "but it's true!"

"But it's true! Asian people DO talk funny! But it's true! Black men are all criminals because they're arrested more often! But it's true! Women are irrational during their periods because of their hormones! But it's true! But it's true! But it's true!"

You can even go so far as to appear exasperated with the Marginalised Person for denying the 'truth' of the situation, pretending obliviousness to why anything you have said could possibly be hurtful when "it's true!".


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

*Women are irrational during their periods because of their hormones!*

This is the first I'm hearing of this phenomenon


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Ahh, I was waiting for you to trot out all the typical Republitard excuses for GW Bush, the STUPIDIST president ever. The guy was a silver spoon baby, who floated through life..a drug addict and alcoholic, entitled rich kid who got to be president cause his daddy was.He said he invaded Iraq because God told him to…why is it God only speaks to the losers and morons in life? The truth is

911 happened on GW Bushs' presidency..you wanna point fingers at events that happened 8 years previous, go ahead if it makes you sleep better at night..but that still doesn't taint the true facts….that HIS administration let that happen..

The economy crashed because deregulation of the investment banking industry allowed those bad mortgages to be re packaged and sold when they were worthless…the people involved knew what they were doing was wrong but not illegal…notable financial experts kept trying to tell the Bush administration that it was happening but they turned a deaf ear to it all so they wouldn't upset all the people that spent millions in bribes and "gifts" to lawmakers to loosen restrictions

My "boy" (racist remark..showing your true colors tea bagger?) didn't grovel at anyone's feet..he showed respect for other world leaders in a socially acceptable way. Bush came trotting out of CLOSED DOOR meetings with oil execs and Saudi oil princes, HOLDING HANDS with the oil barons….gee I wonder if there's anything tied together with our oil dependency, and the Bush family's millions in oil profits…hmmmm

Ya Nagan had his part in the Katrina fiasco, but while innocent people, (and yes even though they might be black, and poor, and on welfare, believe it or not they are STILL people), were drowning, Bush was kicking tumbleweeds, Condoleeesa was purse shopping, and Chenney was shooting a friend in the face…not to mention he appointed another moron friend of his to head up FEMA, that had no experience whatsoever with disaster recovery…" I think Brownie's doing a hell of a job" GW Bush

Again rush Limbaugh is a drug addict, hypocrite, racist liar, blowhard…he is incredibly popular because there are alot of ignorant, uneducated, party line tow-ers that believe the verbal diarrhea he spouts..You realize you are worshiping a terrible human being that likes to visit third world country's that allow child prostitution, with suit cases full of Viagra


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

David sure doesn't like addicts, lol.

Edited to acknowledge a very funny line:
*Bush was kicking tumbleweeds, Condoleeesa was purse shopping, and Chenney was shooting a friend in the face*
That made me spit out my diet coke I'm going to hold on to that one. I'm still laughing.


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Actually I don't have a problem with reformed drug addicts…I just don't like it when they are hypocrites and paint themselves to be better than everyone else..you can tie a pretty ribbon on a pig…but its still a pig


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

^I've got no beef with recovered addicts either and I can't really disagree with you on the rest.


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)




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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)




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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Why is pepper spray in the face always hilarious? It's right up there with pinata accidents. This is the main reason I like the Occupy coverage; plenty of pepper spraying to go around


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

*Why is pepper spray in the face always hilarious? It's right up there with pinata accidents*

For the same reason we laugh at " Man gets hit with football in the groin"


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

All you got is a bumper sticker analogy and a bunch of other bull********************…what makes your facts any better than mine? I'm not making anything up..why don't you go to Snopes, or the Drudge report and bring us more quality facts
The truth is the economy crashed due to credit default swaps of bad mortgages..or are YOU to dumb to comprehend that? 
Most of what you have posted on this thread can be construed as nonsense and crap ..its all a matter of opinion…Its funny how you called the part about black people still being people even though they were on welfare nonsense and crap..more racist rhetoric from a pointed hat wearing gun loving tea bagger Republitard…
Just because you can list out more "facts" doesnt make your information any more valid than mine

No I didnt expect Bush to man a pump..just do his job as president..but we all know he was much to stupid to do that…


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

just more liberal trash talk from another lost cause looking for communism to be the law of the land obummer loving fool who is worse than any rush head


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

i know bradnailer you couldn't cast a shadow as big as a flea next to George w bush he was twice the man on a bad day that you will ever be on your best day


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Really? What country or delusional state were you in for his 8 year term? The man was an utter failure as president. Ya, he's certainly twice the man I am… I didn't ride my daddy's coat tails to the white house..I didn't grow up a spoiled frat boy..the man failed at everything he did even before he was president..he wasn't even a good drunk/drug addict! Just keep towing that party line…you'll sink us all…Oh, and get out of here with that communist bull********************…geez cr1, you call my rhetoric bumper sticker politics…, if that isn't right off the bumper of a rusted, '85 Ford F-150 with a gun rack in the back window I don't know what is! ...Go polish your guns Jethro


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

" Like Robert Oppenheimer and his team of nuclear physicists in the 1940s, Brickell and his JPMorgan colleagues didn't realize they were creating a monster. Today, the economy is teetering and Wall Street is in ruins, thanks in no small part to the beast they unleashed. The country's biggest insurance company, AIG, had to be bailed out by American taxpayers after it defaulted on $14 billion worth of credit default swaps it had made to investment banks, insurance companies and scores of other entities. So much of what's gone wrong with the financial system in the past year can be traced back to credit default swaps, which ballooned into a $62 trillion market before ratcheting down to $55 trillion-nearly four times the value of all stocks traded on the New York Stock Exchange. There's a reason Warren Buffett called these instruments "financial weapons of mass destruction." Since credit default swaps are privately negotiated contracts between two parties and aren't regulated by the government, there's no central reporting mechanism to determine their value. That has clouded up the markets with billions of dollars' worth of opaque "dark matter," as some economists like to say. Like rogue nukes, they've proliferated around the world and now lie hiding, waiting to blow up the balance sheets of countless other financial institutions." 
From "The Monster that ate Wall Street" 2008


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

Brad_Nailor's nose tells it all in his Avatar

Liar, Liar Pants on Fire
Nose as long as a telephone wire.

Go to Amazon and buy more books on Lenin


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

So David how is it you trash the idea of "looking back at causation"with respect to 9/11 being caused by Clintons INACTION. When you say THIS:

911 happened on GW Bushs' presidency..*you wanna point fingers at events that happened 8 years previous*, go ahead if it makes you sleep better at night..but that still doesn't taint the true facts….that HIS administration let that happen..

Yet we have a post here about the ********************ty job the CURRENT president is doing, and it is all about GWB???

Sorry but you cannot argue both ways.


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

*Liar, Liar Pants on Fire
Nose as long as a telephone wire.*

Wow that's all you got Einstein? I guess I'm dealing with the whole tea Bagger community…shouldn't you be on your way to a Sarah Palin speaking engagement?


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

*JimC said:
And whoever the lefties criticize and hates, I'm all for it.
*

THIS


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

this guy is further left than mikey and he clearly fell off the obummer acorn wagon


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

asked if they would like another candidate 100 democrat students at Fresno state said 45 would like another candidate to run 20 said they were voting republican 15 said stay the coarse and the rest said they were not going to vote tells the story the left is faltering


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Your the one that sounds like you just fell off a wagon, "dude"

I'm not consumed by all things racial..I just call a spade a spade..And you could dig a giant hole Gomer..Typical Republitard..thinks his facts are better than everyone elses…Maybe your making up everything you say..huh… two can play this asinine childish game..I guess that explanation about how credit default swaps DID cause the economy to crash in 2008 I posted above is just a bunch of ******************** I made up…..Oh, no I didn't get it from some Nazi right wing trash site so it couldn't be correct or factual, because cr1 didn't fact check it first…my somebody is pretty self important…


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

because i dont believe your left wing lies no sir boy your in no way impressing me with your Allen combs want to be stuff you blast a great man like gwb and then think your not just another left wing waco your no where near the cream of the lefty crop you got slammed by cr1 so looking to fix your wounds well your the one who came in here talking crap about the right wing we will see who is right and it wont be 4 more for obummer


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Need to send Holder to Corcoran

http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2011/nov/u-s-seals-court-records-border-patrol-s-murder

Holder wants to argue how UNFAIR it is to say that the Fast and furious led to the deaths of the border patrol agents.
Now Obama and Holder stepped in and have sealed the court records and Grand Jury reports from any Freedom of Information Act requests.

Yep…..the criminal administration and their lackeys just say " Move along, nothing to see here"


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

And Mr dirt..I was pointing out that going 8 years back to point out something that isn't (more Republican bull********************) even true, that supposedly didn't happen is a bit of a stretch compared to looking at the facts in front of your face as to why we are in this ******************** hole..8 YEARS OF BUSH REPUBLICAN BULL********************..Believe it or not I am NOT a big Obama supporter…after watching a republican administration drive this country into the dirt I would have voted for a stick before I voted for another republican..especially one with Sarah Nutjob as their running mate..no f**ing way…


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Hey The dude..ever hear of a comma (looks like this , ) or a period (looks like this . ) Might wanna try using them…your writing style is not reflecting well on your intelligence..That there is what them book learned folks call a run on sentence..


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

*Now Obama and Holder stepped in and have sealed the court records and Grand Jury reports from any Freedom of Information Act requests.*

Didn't that wonderful person Dick (perfect first name) Cheney do the exact same thing when asked for his offices records?..You don't want to piss him off..he might invade you..or you might end up with a face full of buckshot…


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

i am not typing i am dictating so when i am pissed i forget to say period I know you understand this right.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

OK brad the republicans drove the country into the dirt I want facts. show me how this happened.I want to know. I saw a great man hounded by the liberal press daily till stupid people believed it do you know who I am talking about No Not George W bush. I am talking about Abraham Lincoln. And again we see the same tactic played again by George Soros and the left wing media. Tell them this great uniting president is a dummy a moron say it long enough loud enough and tell lies about him till our side all believes it and say it longer till the fringe believes it to. Even the smart people will start to believe it they after all grew up watching us on TV and we never lie I do hope your smarter than they think you are. the republicans and one or two select dems were good for this country. if you not an Obummer supporter why take on this battle on his behalf? ask your self are you even worse off today than you were 3 years ago if your answer is yes you need to support someone else for president even in your own party I simply want this bum gone he is the worst president since the witless carter. Who is a nice man I met him on a habitat for humanity build a few years ago a sweet man with a bad understanding of the country. he was a very terrible commander in chief, and so is Obummer


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

I said before I am not happy with everything he has done. i think he concentrated on getting his healthcare reform passed too much, instead of focusing on figuring out how to get this country back to work, and have some pride in American made goods and services. I think healthcare is a valid issue, but jobs I think should have been his primary focus. I'm sorry but i will never agree that Bush was a good president, and all the evidence I need i s the fact that when he took office I had a job and the economy was good..then it all went to hell in a Hand basket after that…I am lucky to still be working, allot of other people can't say that. I really would like to see all this partisan rhetoric and stale mating stopped and the lawmakers and people in charge focus on the American people..not the American politics


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

There is one thing that GW Bush did that abolutely no one can debate or challenge - After 9-11, President Bush stated that an attack of this kind would not happen again on American soil as long as he was president. It did not even though there were many more attempts than the press reported that were stopped at various stages. There was one bomber that almost broke this record on TImes Square but he was too stupid to execute (locking your keys in the car was unquestionably stupid) and even dumber not breaking the window and detonating - what was he worried about - getting cut from broken glass

Anyway, the president's record was maintained. There were more people that died in NYC than Pearl Harbor. When I drove to work down Rockville Pike (on the other side of DC), I saw the smoke raising from the Pentagon. My neighbor was working in the wing that got distroyed that morning - he was in the parking lot when the jet hit the building.

When you are dealing with people that can execute things of this nature, GW Bush did more than a fantastic job in my book. Lest we forget - After 9-11, nothing was the same, the economy, the attidute, the politics, the world.

All of the rest is political and BS. Both sides can say what you want, about this and that. Most of it is spin and the like. First and foremost, the president's responsibility is the safety and security of this nation. Settle this mess, overthrow Mexico, tax the crap out of them - like we are, and call it a day. Tear down the fences between us and Canada, they really are our friends, have a coffee at Timmys, and get along.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Can anyone give me Cliff notes on the fight above? I can't get through it. I did spot Sarah Palin in there, lol.


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Blah blah blah


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Al, actually there is probably more history in the text than what any of our kids, and grandkids will ever see in their schooling


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

^very true. We've developed a "selective" method of teaching these days. I grew up in the Texas public school system and learned that a Texan has never made a mistake, lol.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

Well said Dbay45


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

And "W" went after Al-Qaeda in IRAQ when he knew damn well that they were in Afghanistan. "W" only put a minimal presence in Afghanistan just to say we were there. "W" had personal ties with the Bin Laden family and did NOT want to offend them. *"W" also let all of the remaining bin Laden family fly out of the country *immediately AFTER 9/11 WHILE grounding ALL air traffic across the country.


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

So what, Clinton did too. Clinton also stated during an interview that he and his long term and best freind (can't remember her name) talked many times about the Soviet Union. He understood where the Soviet Union failed and if he had set it up, it would not have failed. The friend that he stated was the senior leader of the Soviet's communist party at the time.

The press only mentioned it here in the DC news - once. Can't tell you if it went national, I doubt it.


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Like I have said many times, ALL of these people love the power, they do things and say things to get voted in the next ellection.

What happens after they leave offic is someone else's problem. And do not think for a minute that they don't do things that screw up the next folks. One of the last things that Clinton did in office was to sign into law that limits your losses to $3,000 that you can take off your taxes in a year -but if you make any money over the previous year, you will pay taxes on it,

Once they leave office, they get medical, pensions, security (for some offices) - they are set for life to do what they want, they don't give a rat's backside for the "other people" - regardless of what they say.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Brad, change your avatar so you can get one by Cr1


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Funny thing about this country, at least for now, we can all speak our minds without retaliation. Good thing, this thread gets a little interesting at times.

Just a caution though, sometimes when we get upset or even down right mad, do you really want to cross that bridge? This is true for all sides of the various fences. I really enjoy the facts and figures that people have posted, the reseach that some have done to prove their points. I enjoy the passion - but - there are some bridges that should not be crossed and there is one in the proximity if not already boarded.

Please exercise caution - just saying. Maybe, just maybe, some of us should take a breather, maybe build a house or two - then come back here.

There are many friendships made here through woodworking, I am just as passionate about politics, but the freindships made here are worth more than the politics-my two or three cents.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

^agree with those two cents. Sometimes a madman in print is a reasonable guy just caught up in the moment.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

So brad in your lefty fog… we need to focus on Sarah Palin, as the cause for bank bailouts?

YOU are the one that ignores that under Clinton Osama Bin Laden was literally in a snipers crosshairs and CLINTON said DON'T SHOOT!
Then we have the twin towers go down on Bush's Watch.

You want to decide that only 9/11/2001 matters and nothing before that should be considered.

Then we have a thread about the CRAPPY job Obama is doing, and you are (WERE) arguing it is Bush's fault.

You make the same argument that CR1 did by pointing to CAUSES by a prior president

Now you have decided that this is all about Palin??? Seriously WTF?
\

I'm not a big fan of Sarah but I doubt she could be worse than Joe Biden…..


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Top 10 Joe Biden Gaffes
The Dumbest Joe Biden Quotes of All Time
By Daniel Kurtzman, About.com Guide

10. "A man I'm proud to call my friend. A man who will be the next President of the United States - *Barack America!" *-Joe Biden, at his first campaign rally with Barack Obama after being announced as his running mate, Springfield, Ill., Aug. 23, 2008 (Watch video clip)

9."I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy. I mean, that's a storybook, man." -Joe Biden, referring to Barack Obama at the beginning of the 2008 Democratic primary campaign, Jan. 31, 2007

8. "A successful dump!"-Joe Biden, explaining his whereabouts (dropping deadwood at the dump) to the reporters outside his home, Wilmington, Del., Aug. 20, 2008

7. "His mom lived in Long Island for ten years or so. God rest her soul. And- although, *she's- wait- your mom's still- your mom's still alive. *Your dad passed. God bless her soul."-Joe Biden, on the mother of Irish Prime Minister Brian Cowen, who is very much alive, Washington, D.C., March 17, 2010

6. "You cannot go to a 7-11 or a Dunkin' Donuts unless you have a slight Indian accent…. I'm not joking."-Joe Biden, in a private remark to an Indian-American man caught on C-SPAN, June, 2006

5. "When the stock market crashed, Franklin D. Roosevelt got on the television and didn't just talk about the, you know, the princes of greed. He said, 'Look, here's what happened." -Joe Biden, apparently unaware that FDR wasn't president when the stock market crashed in 1929 and that only experimental TV sets were in use at that time, interview with Katie Couric, Sept. 22, 2008

4. "Hillary Clinton is as qualified or more qualified than I am to be vice president of the United States of America. Quite frankly, it might have been a better pick than me."-Joe Biden, speaking at a town hall meeting in Nashua, New Hampshire, Sept. 10, 2008

3. "Look, John's last-minute economic plan does nothing to tackle the number-one job facing the middle class, and it happens to be, as Barack says, a three-letter word: jobs. J-O-B-S, jobs."-Joe Biden, Athens, Ohio, Oct. 15, 2008

2. "Stand up, Chuck, let 'em see ya." --Joe Biden, to Missouri state Sen. Chuck Graham, who is in a wheelchair, Columbia, Missouri, Sept. 12, 2008 (Watch video clip)

1. "This is a big ********************ing deal!"-Joe Biden, caught on an open mic congratulating President Barack Obama during the health care signing ceremony, Washington, D.C., March 23, 2010 (Watch video clip)


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## S4S (Jan 22, 2011)

WE ARE ONLY HERE TO TAKE THE EVIL ONE

WHO SCRATCHED MY WIFE'S BEAMER !

THE REST OF YOU SAD MENTAL DEFECTIVES

WILL ONLY BE RIDICULED OR IGNORED , ....I PROMISE !!!

!









Mtybutplg ,creepy roadgang one


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Dr D..WTF are you talking about? ? I never said ANY of the things you stated in the above post. I merely said that I would never vote for a republitard candidate after your hero GW drug addict ran the country into the ground…especially one that picked that complete idiot Sarah Pailhead as a running mate. You holier than thou republicans think you have all the answers and everyone else is stupid…look at the motley crew of candidates the GOP (that stands for grossly overrated pillheads) has put up for us all to pick from..a lovely collection of idiots, adulterers, liars, and a woman that is so stupid she would fall in the Grand Canyon if you didn't tell her not to…and before any of you start asking me where my facts are..they are up your stupid asses…those are my opinions..yes, opinions..I believe in America you are allowed those still, at least for now..until another republitard takes office..And by the way you want to talk about made up bull********************..that whole thing you keep spewing about how we had Bin Laden in a snipers cross hairs is COMPLETE REPUBLITARD HYPE

The second I put up some facts to support my argument, your not reading any of my posts anymore *cr1*, and I really dont know how I will ever sleep at night ever again knowing you dont acknowledge me..sniff, sniff..sorry I started crying on my keyboard..I guess I will have to lul myself to sleep thinking how much safer we are in this country since we fought them over there instead of over here, and hope someday that a republitard will once again grace the white house so the rich can get richer and guys like Dr D, and cr , and the dude can go out and kick a homeless guy and demand the right to own a gun large enough to commit a real tragedy…You have allot of balls calling me a mental defective just because I dont agree with your politics, and challenge your lengthy, facts…I guarantee you would never say that to my face


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Dr D…there isnt enough room on this server that hosts this site for me to list all the GW Bush gaffs…


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)




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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)




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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)




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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)




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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)




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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

*Dr D*
Wow.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Speaking of Moment, what's going on, brother? 
Whoever scratched my S550 with that razorblade boomerang is going to see the other end of my gun that's large enough to commit a real tragedy, lol

How big does that gun have to be?
?








?








?


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Blah, Blah, Blah

Typical republitards..can dish it out but you cant take it..


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## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

once again I say: *sharing your passionate beliefs is one thing but personal attacks, name-calling, and the like is not cool and not okay. *
Please be respect of all of our members.


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## S4S (Jan 22, 2011)

@ cr1 , Who gave you the right to quote me ? I thought you were ignoring me because I
was not worthy ! Oh. it's on now , you paralegal paramecium evolved grapefruit headed so and so !
I would use stronger language but Brad used up all the good expletives . You go Brad !

@ Al , Hey whatsup brother . You know you can't afford either one of those firearms ! Next you'll be 
showing pictures of gold plated diamond encrusted hand planes that you are thinking about,
as gifts for Christmas . lol


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

What about having a LJ Christmas Party?


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## S4S (Jan 22, 2011)

Prof. Clark , You have shone to be a true gentleman . Now that we have passed the peace pipe, I would be happy to share some nog with you anytime .


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Lol Moment. You're right that I can't afford an M249 but I might be able to spring for that Derringer replica, at least in an airsoft. This thread could use a round of nog. You pour, Rex.

*I guarantee you would never say that to my face*
Uh oh, here comes the e-ultimate fighter stuff. 
Let's please not go there.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

Brad Nailor Einstein
Is that the best ya got?


> ?


????


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

I hear that the NFL is changing some of the rules. The powers that be don't think it is fair that the Packers have all of these wins while Indy is winless. So they are proposing that Green Bay give some of it's wins to the Colts. It is only fair that since they have so much they should have to give back their "fair share" to the unfortunate teams in the league. It just isn't right or fair that the Packers have more wins than they really need. It won't make Indy any better but we will all feel better since the results are evened out and we have more "fairness". ---sound familiar???


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Out of respect for the Lumberjocks rules of conduct, the members, and Ms. Debbie I sincerely apologize for my in the heat of the moment, should have thought before I typed, name calling.

*Brad Nailor Einstein
Is that the best ya got*

*Jim C..* What does that even mean? If your gonna toss a burn on someone, at least make it a coherent thought..


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Al..my cable modem can beat up your cable modem…

Heres a pic I just took of myself with my webcam..









You misunderstood me..Funny though..that was my point…I wasn't challenging him..I was merely pointing out that through the safety and anonymity of the internet he can say anything he wants to me..things he would never say to my face…Because clearly I AM a 6'-4" Olympic power lifter..


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

This ones going out to all those GW Bush lovers out there…


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

Brad
Is it Alzheimers?????
Look at post 619


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Ya I am well aware of what I wrote..I still don't get the joke…Shouldn't you be moose hunting with the Palins? I heard that her supply of Moose meat was getting low…


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

If you are well aware of it…........How come it did not compute ?\
Take a breath and go cut some wood. But use hand tools so you don't hurt yourself.


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

It doesn't compute because its NOT FUNNY..leave the jokes to Herman Cain..oh wait he's not funny either..he just makes crappy pizza and cheats on his wife and lies about it..


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

I'm writing about your intellectual deficiencies and you can only continue to talk politikes. That's your only defense .

Don't get into a debate with me….....I'll eat you alive .

Regards,
Al Einstein


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

You too Christian Woody
Anytime
Get your friend at your side and climb THIS mountain!


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## S4S (Jan 22, 2011)

"Socialism is directed towards social-ethical ends " ~ Albert Einstein








Why are you referencing someone who you *ideologically disagree* with ? (Einstein,socialist ) By comparison, you site his intelligence to detract from some imagined " mental deficiencies " of someone who is opposed to you . If you equate socialism only with politics , then you draw a false analogy . To argue the separation of political thought from intellect is childish . Einstein must be just as full of 'socialist B.S.' as you claim Brad is . Your point is irrational .


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

This is the guy that's going to "eat me alive intellectually"..

*BradNailor's nose tells it all in his Avatar

Liar, Liar Pants on Fire
Nose as long as a telephone wire.

Go to Amazon and buy more books on Lenin*

*I'm writing about your intellectual deficiencies and you can only continue to talk politikes_*

If that's the sign of your massive brain power, then you should start out debating some ten year olds. Which one of the great minds of the 20th century was the first to use Liar Liar pants on fire? Can you back up that statement with some facts? We all know how much the republicans in this thread like facts..And by the way..WTF is a politike? lol..


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

*BradNailor's nose tells it all in his Avatar
*

Insulting a mans dog is really hitting below the belt…


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

*Moment*….Good point, but I think he was just parroting me..I called him "Einstein" in an earlier post…......so, he is unoriginal too..


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Brad SAID: Ya I am well aware of what I wrote..I still don't get the joke…Shouldn't you be moose hunting with the Palins? I heard that her supply of Moose meat was getting low…

*JimC moose hunting, or was it moose hunting JimC…*


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Nice Mike! Lets see..there's a pickup truck..check, there's probably some guns..check, there's beer…check, and there's small brained mammals that just killed something..check!


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

*Get your friend at your side and climb THIS mountain!*

Anybody got a step stool?


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

What about a party exchanging gag gifts?
We could pair up certain individuals and watch the fun. Can you Imagine H-Mike and cr1 exchanging gifts?
Yeah, Pass that grog nog around ( double for Moment), the designated driver could be Rick and DeGoose can knock out a few more boards to serve food on, and should anyone pass out and croak then we will have Al to dissect his liver.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Brad:
JC, a step stool must be very painful to pass.


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Can I come? I will bring the Anti-freeze..I mean Republicans only, punch..wink wink see ya there!


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

It's the holiday time, goodwill towards men ( and women ), Reps and Dems, Rich or Poor, Straight or bent, Dead or Alive, Dogs or cats.

Anyone know why Santa does not have any Children?


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Yikes…


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

The Republicans' Farcical Candidates
A Club of Liars, Demagogues and Ignoramuses

A Commentary by Marc Pitzke

REUTERS

Africa is a country. In Libya, the Taliban reigns. Muslims are terrorists; most immigrants are criminal; all Occupy protesters are dirty. And women who feel sexually harassed-well, they shouldn't make such a big deal about it.

Welcome to the wonderful world of the US Republicans. Or rather, to the twisted world of what they call their presidential campaigns. For months now, they've been traipsing around the country with their traveling circus, from one debate to the next, one scandal to another, putting themselves forward for what's still the most powerful job in the world.

As it turns out, there are no limits to how far they will stoop.

It's true that on the road to the White House all sorts of things can happen, and usually do. No campaign can avoid its share of slip-ups, blunders and embarrassments. Yet this time around, it's just not that funny anymore. In fact, it's utterly horrifying.

It's horrifying because these eight so-called, would-be candidates are eagerly ruining not only their own reputations and that of their party, the party of Lincoln lore. Worse: They're ruining the reputation of the United States.

'Freakshow'

They lie. They cheat. They exaggerate. They bluster. They say one idiotic, ignorant, outrageous thing after another. They've shown such stark lack of knowledge-political, economic, geographic, historical-that they make George W. Bush look like Einstein and even cause their fellow Republicans to cringe.

"When did the GOP lose touch with reality?" wonders Bush's former speechwriter David Frum in New York Magazine. In the New York Times, Kenneth Duberstein, Ronald Reagan's former chief-of-staff, called this campaign season a "reality show," while Wall Street Journal columnist and former Reagan confidante Peggy Noonan even spoke of a "freakshow."

That may be the most appropriate description.

Tough times demand tough and smart minds. But all these dopes have to offer are ramblings that insult the intelligence of all Americans-no matter if they are Democrats, Republicans or neither of the above. Yet just like any freakshow, this one would be unthinkable without a stage (in this case, the media, strangling itself with all its misunderstood "political correctness" and "objectivity") and an audience (the party base, which this year seems to have suffered a political lobotomy).

Factually Challenged

And so the farce continues. The more mind-boggling its incarnations, the happier the US media are to cheer first one clown and then the next, elevating and then eliminating "frontrunners" in reliable news cycles of about 45 days.

Take Herman Cain, "businessman." He sat out the first wave of sexual harassment claims against him by offering a peculiar argument: Most ladies he had encountered in his life, he said, had not complained.

In the most recent twist, a woman accused Cain of having carried on a 13-year affair with her. That, too, he tried to casually wave off, but now, under pressure, he says he wants to "reassess" his campaign.

If Cain indeed drops out, the campaign would lose its biggest caricature: He has been the most factually challenged of all these jesters.

As CEO of the "Godfather's" pizza chain, Cain killed jobs-but now poses as the job-creator-in-chief. Meanwhile, he seems to lack basic economic know-how, let alone a rudimentary grasp of politics or geography. Libya confounds him. He does not believe that China is a nuclear power. And all other, slightly more complicated questions get a stock answer: "Nine-nine-nine!" Remember? That's Cain's tax reduction plan that would actually raise taxes for 84 percent of Americans.

Has any of that disrupted Cain's popularity in the media or with his fan base? Far from it. Since Oct. 1, he has collected more than $9 million in campaign donations. Enough to plow through another onslaught of denouements.

No Shortage of Chutzpah

Then there's Newt Gingrich, the current favorite. He's a political dinosaur, dishonored and discredited. Or so we thought. Yet just because he studied history and speaks in more complex sentences than his rivals, the US media now reflexively hails him as a "Man of Ideas" (The Washington Post)-even though most of these ideas are lousy if not downright offensive, such as firing unionized school janitors, so poor children could do their jobs.

Pompous and blustering, Gingrich gets away with this humdinger as well as with selling himself as a Washington outsider-despite having made millions of dollars as a lobbyist in Washington. At least the man's got chutzpah.

The hypocrisy doesn't end here. Gingrich claims moral authority on issues such as the "sanctity of marriage," yet he's been divorced twice. He sprang the divorce on his first wife while she was sick with cancer. (His supporters' excuse: It's been 31 years, and she's still alive.) He cheated on his second wife just as he was pressing ahead with Bill Clinton's impeachment during the Monica Lewinsky affair, unaware of the irony. The woman he cheated with, by the way, was one of his House aides and 23 years his junior-and is now his perpetually smiling third wife.

Americans have a short memory. They forget, too, that Gingrich was driven out of Congress in disgrace, the first speaker of the house to be disciplined for ethical wrongdoing. Or that he consistently flirts with racism when he speaks of Barack Obama. Or that he enjoyed a $500,000 credit line at Tiffany's just as his campaign was financially in the toilet and he ranted about the national debt. Chutzpah, indeed.

Yet the US media rewards him with a daily kowtow. And the Republicans reward him too, by having put him on top in the latest polls. Mr. Hypocrisy, the bearer of his party's hope.

"I think he's doing well just because he's thinking," former President Clinton told the conservative online magazine NewsMax. "People are hungry for ideas that make some sense." Sense? Apparently it's not just the Republicans who have lost their minds here.

The Eternal Runner-Up

And what about the other candidates? Rick Perry's blunders are legendary. His "oops" moment in South Carolina. His frequently slurred speech, as if he was drunk. His TV commercials putting words in Obama's mouth that he didn't say (such as, "Americans are 'lazy'"). His preposterous claim that as governor of Texas he created 1 million jobs, when the total was really just about 100,000. But what's one digit? Elsewhere, Perry would have long ago been disqualified. But not here in the US.

Meanwhile, Michele Bachmann has fallen off the wagon, although she's still tolerated as if she's a serious contender. Ron Paul's fan club gets the more excited, the more puzzling his comments get. Jon Huntsman, the only one who occasionally makes some sort of sense, has been relegated to the poll doldrums ever since he showed sympathy for the Occupy Wall Street demonstrators.

Which leaves Mitt Romney, the eternal flip-flopper and runner-up, who by now is almost guaranteed to clinch the nomination, even though no one in his party seems to like or want him. He stiffly delivers his talking points, which may or may not contradict his previous positions. After all, he's been practicing this since 2008, when he failed to snag the nomination from John McCain. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

As an investor, Romney once raked in millions and, like Cain, killed jobs along the way. So now he says he's the economy's savior. To prove that, he has presented an economic plan that the usually quite conservative business magazine Forbes has labeled "dangerous," asking incredulously, "About Mitt Romney, the Republicans can't be serious." Apparently they're not, but he is, running TV spots against Obama already, teeming with falsehoods.

Good for Ratings

What a nice club that is. A club of liars, cheaters, adulterers, exaggerators, hypocrites and ignoramuses. "A starting point for a chronicle of American decline," was how David Remnick, the editor of the New Yorker, described the current Republican race.

The Tea Party would take issue with that assessment. They cheer the loudest for the worst, only to see them fail, as expected, one by one. Which goes to show that this "movement," sponsored by Fox News, has never been interested in the actual business of governing or in the intelligence and intellect that requires. They are only interested in marketing themselves, for ratings and dollars.

So the US elections are a reality show after all, a pseudo-political counterpart to the Paris Hiltons, Kim Kardashians and all the "American Idol" and "X Factor" contestants littering today's TV. The cruder, the dumber, the more bizarre and outlandish-the more lucrative. Especially for Fox News, whose viewers were recently determined by Fairleigh Dickinson University to be far less informed than people who don't watch TV news at all.

Maybe that's the solution: Just ignore it all, until election day. Good luck with that-this docudrama with its soap-opera twists is way too enthralling. The latest rumor du jour involves a certain candidate who long ago seemed to have disappeared from the radar. Now she may be back, or so it is said, to bring order into this chaos. Never mind that her name is synonymous with chaos: Sarah Palin.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Moi? Moment. Dare you ask. I have just been my adorable, lovable. intelligibly solvent self, but am able to act like an idiot at a Moment's notice.
This thread has been an inspiration and clearly reinforces the notion that not voting is the way to go. I'm not party to any Party unless the wine (NOT WHINE) flows freely and there's a good chance of getting laid. My pacemaker has a new battery, I have a sack of the little blue pills, a tool box full of condoms and some "lucky" sawdust to throw over my shoulder. My old buddy Herman, of my earlier pizza days, has given me a list of "sure things" and Strauss-Kahn has kindly given me a list of hotels to stay at where the perks are better than points.

I'm looking forward tot Christmas


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

the name calling is not productive and pleas you liberals tell me obummer is your choice for president .
I believe most of you would rather have Hillery as president at least she dosent bow to every third world leader like this president does it is a joke he has made a mockery of the presidency .


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

no one has killed more jobs than Hussein. he is the job killer and i would take any of the republicans over oBUMMER ANY DAY this guy is the lowest of the low and he is most likely a Muslim and may not even be an American he has never been able to produce his birth certificate. he has killed American citizens and is clearly a racist as is his wife who said she had nothing good to say about America. I know you cut and pasted that list from some where bradnailer you aren't capable of thinking that crap you spewed all over the page in 15 minutes.


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## maljr1980 (Sep 4, 2011)

obama will get elected again… why you ask, because the further he digs the country into a hole, the more people who will legitimately end up on welfare and unemployment, add that to the number of lazy people who use the system and use its benefits, and add in the fact 98% of black people will vote for him simply because hes black, its impossible for him to loose. less than 50% of the country pays taxes. there needs to be a voter reform, i dont give a damn about civil liberties and rights. if you arent a productive member of society and help fund the government by working hard and paying taxes then you should have no right to vote for somebody. i guess if you sleep better at night knowing you're making this country worse, and making people lazy and think they dont have to work because you will take care of them by making those who do succeed and work pay the price, then by all means enjoy it, i personally couldnt look myself in the mirror


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Lance SAID: the *name calling is not productive* and pleas you *liberals tell me obummer* is your choice for president .

Doah!

*Tactic #4: Go Negative, Then Cry Foul*
It is a truism in sports that in a scuffle, it is often the second, retaliatory blow that
draws the attention of the referee. Karl Rove has moved this principle into the political
arena. The Bush campaign typically "goes negative" early in the campaign, using scare
tactics or lifting comments out of context (See Tactics #12 and #14). Once the opponent
retaliates, the Rove camp calls public attention to their "dirty" campaign tactics. During the 1994 gubernatorial race, the Bush campaign initiated a series of negative campaign
tactics, distorting Texas' crime statistics to manufacture a divisive issue that confused
voters (See Tactic #10). Ann Richards was advised by her campaign staff to fight back
so that she wouldn't appear weak. However, when Richards called Bush a "jerk," she left
an opening for the Bush campaign. Bush spokesperson Reggie Bashur declared, "Today
apparently marks a significant departure for Governor Richards, as she and her advisers
have decided that negative campaigning is their lone hope to attempt to reverse her
political troubles. George W. Bush has run his campaign on the issues and has offered
reforms for fundamental change and meaningful policies and programs."5 This tactic cast
Richards in a negative light and put her on the defensive throughout the remainder of the
campaign.


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

BradNailer - I will give you an example of the running double standards out there:

In the montage comparing Bush to a monkey (cute), you will tell me that it fits Bush because of this or that. If on the other hand, someone would post the same thing but with Obama instead of Bush in the pictures, they would just be dismissed as a racist and start a race war.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

David, please notice that Brad is posting this *in response to* the rights name calling. Sad to say that YOU TOO are still trying out Karl Rove's Playbook just as Lance:

*Tactic #4: Go Negative, Then Cry Foul*
see above for definition


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Actually, I was making an observation, show me where I am wrong - not something like "tactic" this or that.

I feel that the name calling on any side is inapropriate. Lets stick to the issues, sort out the facts and treat this as adults. THen we may (on all sides) come away a little smarter and more informed.

But if I say that somebody did this and there is nothing more than name calling or a put down to me as a response, my point is made. THe political pics are funny but not required and even stupid.

So far, both sides of the coin have had some very good points but lets be real about this - 90% of how people see this is perception and about 10% is based upon facts that are presented. I live and work near DC, I see things on the news that never gets to other family members around the country and vice versa. A lot of what is reported is not the reporting of the news, it is created news - that should be obvious to all (on both sides).

Mike, you are free to peg me anywhere you want as can anyone else. Doesn't matter to me a bit, the truth is that we are on this site as lumberjocks and we are woodworkers. If I were running for office - different story.

Are you good with this? Show me the facts you have, I will show you the facts I have - from there if we can sort out the truth, we both walk away a little smarter, a little wiser, whether we disagree with one another or not. If we cannot keep an open mind and discuss things, there is no point in the discussion.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Lol, Brad, I almost used that pictue myself That picture never gets old.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

*David: So far, both sides of the coin have had some very good points but lets be real about this - 90% of how people see this is perception and about 10% is based upon facts that are presented. I live and work near DC, I see things on the news that never gets to other family members around the country and vice versa. A lot of what is reported is not the reporting of the news, it is created news - that should be obvious to all (on both sides).*

I can and do agree with THAT, unfortunately… 8-((

*Show me the facts you have, I will show you the facts I have…*

LIKEWISE, show me your negativity and I will then show you mine.

FUN FACT: The *C*orrupt *R*ight *1* is a prime example of why I am returning the negativity in like form. I never liked that negativity coming my way in the first place so I throw it right back into the faces of those who attempt such. And THEN, the *C*orrupt *R*ight *1* (and his sycophants) goes *Tactic #4: Go Negative, Then Cry Foul* and meekly cries foul (crocodile tears for sure)... right out of the playbook. geez…


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Ok, without being negative, what do you recommend that is positive? I don't care what others are doing or not, how do we focus on the positive?

I will be more than happy to let you or anyone else set the standard that we move forward. Are you good with that?

It is Dude's thread, I have no desire to grandstand but I think we can do this in a positive way.

Can anybody give me 10 positive points about Bush and 10 positive points about Obama?


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Obama dresses very well and has a strong speaking voice. Bush used to be able to really put em down and seems to have a good sense of humor. Bush is from Texas. That's +1 for Obama; +2 for Bush Oh, and also Bush is named Bush, lol (+3 Bush).


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Obama shoots a pretty mean game of hoops.. +1 Obama

Obamas wife is way hotter than Bushs'....+1 Obama

Bush was a jet pilot in the Guard…+1 Bush

Bushs daddy hid him in the Guard to avoid going to Vietnam..-1 Bush

Obama has giant ears..-1 Obama


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Now we are getting some place - Don't discount the Guard, they were in mix with the rest of the services. He didn't go to Canada.

I have a lot of respect for all of the services.


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Thats why I gave him a plus one..I respect anyone that served in the military… both my uncles were in WW2, my dad was in the Korean conflict….and I love jet fighters..but daddy did pull some strings to keep his boy out of the fight..


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Coast Guard ran a lot of river ops in Vietnam. Boston Whalers were also used because they only required 12" of water when they were at a plane at speed.

Point taken but I know a whole lot of people that would have taken that route if they could have. I had a draft # that guaranteed me a spot so I went Navy but was at the end of it.

Vietnam war was not a popular way to go at the time and lets face it, war sucks any way you swing it. What ever you do, whereever you serve, for any country - war sucks.


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

True that….I wont argue that point….


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

*Obama has giant ears..-1 Obama*
But despite possibly being picked on in the playground, he became President (Obama +1)
Both likely own cowboy boots (Obama +1; Bush +1)


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Al, I thought everyone on the hill wore cowboy boots what with all the BS there?


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

I'd wear waders








I'm lol'g so hard at that picture.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

^Couldn't be Jon, he's armed, lol


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

wudnheven; Me too, but this one is vertical


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

DO WE NEED A NEW PRESIDENT?

How about this lady?

Shown below, is an actual letter that was sent to a bank by a 76 year old woman. 
The bank manager thought it amusing enough to have it published in the New York Times.

Dear Sir:

I am writing to thank you for bouncing my check with which I endeavored to pay my plumber last month. By my calculations, three nanoseconds must have elapsed between his presenting the check and the arrival in my account of the funds needed to honor it.. 
I refer, of course, to the automatic monthly deposit of my entire pension, an arrangement which, I admit, has been in place for only eight years. 
You are to be commended for seizing that brief window of opportunity, and also for debiting my account $30 by way of penalty for the inconvenience caused to your bank. 
My thankfulness springs from the manner in which this incident has caused me to rethink my errant financial ways. I noticed that whereas I personally answer your telephone calls and letters,-- when I try to contact you, I am confronted by the impersonal, overcharging, pre-recorded, faceless entity which your bank has become. 
From now on, I, like you, choose only to deal with a flesh-and-blood person. 
My mortgage and loan repayments will therefore and hereafter no longer be automatic, but will arrive at your bank, by check, addressed personally and confidentially to an employee at your bank whom you must nominate. 
Be aware that it is an OFFENSE under the Postal Act for any other person to open such an envelope. 
Please find attached an Application Contact which I require your chosen employee to complete. 
I am sorry it runs to eight pages, but in order that I know as much about him or her as your bank knows about me, there is no alternative. 
Please note that all copies of his or her medical history must be countersigned by a Notary Public, and the mandatory details of his/her financial situation (income, debts, assets and liabilities) must be accompanied by documented proof. 
In due course, at MY convenience, I will issue your employee with a PIN number which he/she must quote in dealings with me. 
I regret that it cannot be shorter than 28 digits but, again, I have modeled it on the number of button presses required of me to access my account balance on your phone bank service. 
As they say, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. 
Let me level the playing field even further. 
When you call me, press buttons as follows: 
IMMEDIATELY AFTER DIALING, PRESS THE STAR (*) BUTTON FOR ENGLISH 
#1. To make an appointment to see me 
#2. To query a missing payment. 
#3. To transfer the call to my living room in case I am there. 
#4. To transfer the call to my bedroom in case I am sleeping. 
#5. To transfer the call to my toilet in case I am attending to nature. 
#6. To transfer the call to my mobile phone if I am not at home. 
#7. To leave a message on my computer, a password to access my computer is required. 
Password will be communicated to you at a later date to that Authorized Contact mentioned earlier. 
#8. To return to the main menu and to listen to options 1 through 7. 
#9. To make a general complaint or inquiry. 
The contact will then be put on hold, pending the attention of my automated answering service. 
#10. This is a second reminder to press* for English. 
While this may, on occasion, involve a lengthy wait, uplifting music will play for the duration of the call. 
Regrettably, but again following your example, I must also levy an establishment fee to cover the setting up of this new arrangement. 
May I wish you a happy, if ever so slightly less prosperous Good Day 
Your Humble Client 
And remember: Don't make old People mad. We don't like being old in the first place, so it doesn't take much to piss us off.


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Jonathan..LOL! I was thinking that guy looked like Mike but your touch up work confirmed it!

Al..I hope that's mud…


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Bush had Cheeny for a VP…-1 Bush

Obama has Biden for a VP..-1 Obama


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Cheney is a better shot +1 he has proven he can do better than the broad side of a barn


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Cheney has good medical +1
Biden needs good medical -1


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Cheney has a balloon in his "pipes" 
Biden is just a buffoon.


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Does anybody have input on actual work they have done - policies, laws and the like? We really don't want to discuss the congress and senate, we will all die of old age before that list is done - just for this year, and none of it will be good.


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Anybody that has the chutzpah to where you can shoot your friend in the face, then the guy you shot holds a press conference in the hospital, to formally apologize to Cheeny for having all this negative attention put on him..thats scary..


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Obama got Osama…+1 Obama


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Yes he did, but the intel (from what I understand) was from Bush's area - if true +1 Joint effort


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Bush has always been proud to be American and proud of America +5
Obama stated that he was not proud of America and he was ashamed to be American (until he became president, since then I have not heard one way or the other) -5


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

*Obama stated that he was not proud of America and he was ashamed to be American*

Republican Fox news bulls**t spin…disqualified..


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

I have a red pencil box.


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

I heard the speech, watched his mouth speak it - he said it, his wife said it - saw that one also and I saw it on NBC. not DQ

When I saw that, I asked my wife why in the world would he want to be president if he felt that way?


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## S4S (Jan 22, 2011)

Red pencil box +1









Red pencil box +1


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Gotta love it. Russian??


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Obama threw Mubarak under the bus with the Google employees engineering the uprising -136

Obama refused to get congresional approval for military action in Libya -5

Bush actually bothered to get congressional approval for both Iraq and Afganistan +5

Bush went into Iraq -1243


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Actually, the Red Pencil Box was a line from a Benny Hill Sketch.

But here's one dedicated to Al:


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

"W" Bush's grand pappy, "Prescott Bush" financed Hitler's rise to power -50
"W" Bush inherited a lot of Prescott Bushes money -20
"W" Mission Accomplished sign -25
"W" Americans Killed Since "Mission Accomplished" (5/1/03) (the list) = 4344 -4344 on BUSH

Obama Americans KilledSince Obama Inauguration (1/20/09): 255 (4344-255) +4089 for Obama


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

And Kennedy's family were the biggest smugglers this country had ever seen - whats your point?


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

*thedude50*
I do think she is hot and so do a few million other people, that aren't racist, Nazi republitards…And my exact quote was " I think she is hotter than Bush's wife"..and that's absolutely true, cause if you think Laura Bush is hot you really must be blind or you are attracted to frumpy, alcoholic women who wear too much makeup badly, and like to mow down innocent people while they drive drunk, and then pull political strings to get out of it.. I can see how you might have trouble admitting a black woman is attractive…now heres the part where all the other republitards like cr1 chime in and say that "I'm" the racist…hahaha I love how dumb rich assholes in life like the Bush's whip themselves in to situations like being alcoholics and drug addicts, and then they find god and that makes everything else go away..god, and daddys millions…I like how they say Born again..why born again?..cause they screwed up the first one so they get a do over from god

I really love how you like to criticize Mike, me and any of the other sane rational liberal leaning peoples posts as "cut and paste" from liberal think tanks. At least where we get our information is associated with the word "think" Its not brazen lies, and fabrications like what you like to repeat from the Fox news channel..or endless, bull******************** facts that cr1 likes to spew..he thinks if he puts up enough Fox news data that we will all be wowed by his amazing intellect and ability to cut down us libs with his iron clad information…but I digress, lets examine some of the quality facts you have put up in this ongoing saga pretending to be an adult discussion on politikes..

*obummer said he wasn't proud to be an American and this is most likely because he isn't even an American*

*after all he has never proved his citizenship and should not be president at all.*

These gems are right off of bumper stickers..where were you when he finally produced his birth certificate…oh I am sure your part of that looney camp that thinks he forged it..get a grip, and let your tin foil hat argument on his citizenship go..its embarrassing and it makes people who continue that argument look like mental cases..It's about as sane as accusing him of being a Muslim..oh ya, that's right you do that too. You don't think our government properly vetted a man who was going to be president?(sorry I'm sure you don't know what "vetted" means..ask your boyfriend cr1..he knows everything) No, lets leave it up to a bunch of bat ******************** crazy hillbillies to determine that..besides what president in history ever had to prove he was a citizen? Just another imaginary bull******************** republitard fake Fox news/Rush Limberger fact that you cling to like the idea your arguments hold water..

*Several of us who choose to remain private have gathered together and formed this coalition, all conservatives are welcome to join us 
*
Yes and the membership requirements are ..you must own a white sheet with a pointy hat and eye holes cut in it because you are a coward and cant reveal your identity because of your radical, angry beliefs 
You must posses woodworking skills, and have experience building giant wooden crosses..
You must be skilled with gasoline, fire bombing any other related incendiary skills and making nooses..
You must posses a low IQ and believe everything any stupid, republitard candidate spews from there lying mouths

Yes, republitards, I call out to you at all the "fillin"stations, country music bars, Klan rallies, gun clubs, and remedial reading classes…put down that assault rifle, jump off that short bus and join together and pick a candidate from the awesome bunch of fine upstanding liars, complete morons, pizza makers and adulterers, and send him to the white house..maybe you will be rewarded for you efforts by a vacation at Ni**erhead….


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

*Yes, republitards, I call out to you at all the "fillin"stations, country music bars, Klan rallies, gun clubs, and remedial reading classes…put down that assault rifle, jump off that short bus*

Why is it that liberals are convinced that all Republicans are racist? That's so incredibly worn out by now. There are plenty of legitimate things to pick on us about, after all. I do fill up my truck at a filling station, that's true. I do love guns, that's more than fair. I'm MD/PhD so I think I got the readin and writin at least past remedial.

This is all fun but the stereotyping really detracts from the valid points of your argument. Doesn't stereotyping go hand in hand with racist allegations?

The Pizza-maker comment was pretty funny. And Moment, that G-man box is freakin awesome.


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## muleskinner (Sep 24, 2011)

*And yes obummer said he wasn't proud to be an American and this is most likely because he isn't even an American. after all he has never proved his citizenship and should not be president at all.*

You're kidding? Right?


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Listen Al…I know stereotypes are just that..hell I drive a pickup truck…I really have nothing against gun ownership…I know there's allot of intelligent rational republicans out there..I like to use the stereotypes to an effect..the way all Liberals are stereotyped as tree hugging hippies that want the rich to just hand over their money…and all OWS protesters are dirty, lice ridden spoiled college students who want a free education and an instant job. 
And cr1..for somebody whose not reading my posts you seem to like to comment indirectly on everything I say…and the right has just as much bumper sticker mentality, and lie telling so be careful you don't fall off that self proclaimed mountain you pontificated yourself onto…Seems that some people in the right have filled their head full of tainted facts and like to condescend to the rest of us dummies..
And as far as the racist implications..again I know everyone on the right isn't a racist..but it sure seems like it's heavily populated with them…


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Thanks, David. I understand better where you're coming from now. At least we both like trucks


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

AND woodworking


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Lets get back to facts - did you know that LBJ was a KKK Grand Dragon before becoming president?


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

West Virginia's beloved Byrd definitely was a klansman.

Edited: oops, I'm seeing Cr1 already got Byrd.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

the stereo types are just a lame attempt to piss us off. also i drive a hybrid i plant trees for future woodworkers. I don't belong to the clan i don't think there is a clan presence in California but i could be wrong. You think your superior if that were true you would be rich and successful but your not . i hear you preach like a left wing wacko but your really a middle of the road liberal who doesn't really like Obama. Yet you want to argue his virtue all for entertainment value. It is not entertaining because it is a straw-man argument . you don't even believe half the crap you are spewing.So BradNailer you are not in the same boat as Mike because he really believes the crap you post he thinks all republicans are clan members and that we all hate blacky and that's a load of crap. you would have more credibility if you said what you believe instead of the rhetoric that crosses you keyboard. Put the personal attacks away and focus on the question that was asked is Obama your man or do you think the party needs a new candidate like 40 percent of democrats who think Obama is a failure and who want a new candidate . Why do you think he is the man for the job is he a great leader. why has he had virtually no news conferences. Ill tell you why he is afraid to face the press who has grown tired of his failure as well. do you realize his approval rating is lower than gwb ever was you wouldn't know it because the lefty wacko media has protected him till many are sick of protecting him.and as for Michelle she is an ugly woman now Beyonce or Halle Berry are good looking women and elizabeth bush is a distinguished beautiful woman for her age Michelle has a bulldogged face and is UGLY


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

The democrats need to brand the Republicans as racists to cover their long history carrying water for the Klan and other organizations.

That is why the Republican party was founded and Lincoln was the first republican president to stop slavery under the democrats.

Malcolm X had it right:

The white liberal differs from the white conservative only in one way: the liberal is more deceitful than the conservative. The liberal is more hypocritical than the conservative.

Both want power, but the white liberal is the one who has perfected the art of posing as the *************************'s friend and benefactor; and by winning the friendship, allegiance, and support of the *************************, the white liberal is able to use the ************************* as a pawn or tool in this political "football game" that is constantly raging between the white liberals and white conservatives.

Great *Uniters* in the Democratic Party -

President Andrew Jackson and the Trail of Tears…
Bull Connor fighting desegregation of the south
FDR rounding up the japanese and putting them in camps without due process
Johnson blocked the key elements of the 1957 civil rights act brought under Eisenhower as president of the senate… but then Passed the civil rights act in 1965 quoted " I'll have those ni-ers voting democrat for the next 200 years"

You cannot go to a 7-11 or Dunkin Donuts unless you have a slight Indian Accent." -Senator Joe Biden

Mahatma Gandhi "ran a gas station down in Saint Louis." -Senator Hillary Clinton
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3890946/ns/us_news-life/t/clinton-regrets-gandhi-joke/

During the filming of a 60 MINUTES segment on insurance fraud in 1981, Mike Wallace revealed what he really thought about African-Americans and Latinos when he stated "Blacks and Hispanics were too busy eating watermelons and tacos to read the fine print on their insurance policies. "

"You'd find these potentates from down in Africa, you know, rather than eating each other, they'd just come up and get a good square meal in Geneva." - Fritz Hollings (D, S.C.)

"I think one man is just as good as another so long as he's not a n-gger or a Chinaman. Uncle Will says that the Lord made a White man from dust, a ****************************** from mud, then He threw up what was left and it came down a Chinaman. He does hate Chinese and Japs. So do I. It is race prejudice, I guess. But I am strongly of the opinion *********************************** ought to be in Africa, Yellow men in Asia and White men in Europe and America." *Harry Truman (1911) in a letter to his future wife Bess *

But the progressive left NEEDS the republicans to be portrayed as the uneducated racists….and the liberals are tolerant and inclusive….as long as the undesirables don't move into their gated communities or join the country club.


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

The Klan doesn't belong in any political party or this country in general..

Ya know dude..you just aren't gonna ever get it and I grow weary of trying to explain myself to you…Again, my points have flown so far over your head, you might strain your neck looking at them..Keep spewing your bumper sticker mentality..keep on saying Obamas a communist, or a Marxist, or a racist..no..I think its a socialist..ya that's the right one…And he wasn't born in this country…People should realize how ignorant and uneducated and just dumb that makes them look..

I believe everything I say…and I am proud to say I am liberal…but unlike you that feels you must tow the party line I can see that politikes are very partisan based and I have an open enough mind to see points on both sides..and to call bull******************** when I don't believe things. I liked some of what McCain was saying ..but once he picked that complete ass clown Palin, I would have never voted for him..and like I said before, 8 years of dumb and dumber left a really bad republican taste in my mouth so I was voting Dem regardless…at the time, I liked what Obama was saying…

I don't think I am superior, but I like the way you judge people..I'm not rich and successful enough? LOL What a pompous ass you are dude…and what do you really know about me ..NOTHING,

And Bush's wife looks like a sad old rodeo clown…All that hard drinking really made her hit the wall…


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

As far as your question..do I think Obama has done a great job? I think he has done OK for the mess that was handed to him..I said before I would have preferred he concentrated on jobs more than healthcare..and I am disappointed at how he has not shown more backbone in dealing with the Republicans…but compared to the mess that your side has to offer, unless the Republican pick ends up bringing a really strong argument to why I should vote for him..and right now I don't see that in the current slew of candidates, I would probably vote for Obama again…given the circumstances of the moment.


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

REMOVED


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Daivid SAID: Lets get back to facts - did you know that LBJ was a KKK Grand Dragon before becoming president?

*REPUBLICANS OWN THE KU KLUX LAN*
Uhh… I believe you ere a bit confused David. David Duke wuz a *Republican* wanna be President:

Possible 2012 presidential campaign
*David Ernest Duke (born July 1, 1950) is a former Grand Wizard of the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan an American activist and writer, and former Republican Louisiana State Representative. Duke He was also a former candidate in the Republican presidential primaries in 1992…*
Daivd Duke has claimed that thousands of Tea Party movement activists have urged him to run for president in 2012 and he is seriously considering entering the Republican Party primaries. Duke has also released a video detailing his platform. In the video pledges that as president he would stop all immigration to the US, including legal immigration, and says that he "will not let Israel or any nation dictate our foreign policy". Duke claimed that he would be "willing to risk life and limb, endure the barbs of the media" to mount "the most honest campaign for president since the time of our Founding Fathers".


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Here you go you Rightwings. You can NOT make this up!


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Good one Mike..I love Rachel…

I gota admit cr1..that one made me chuckle…does Al Gore think there is a correlation?


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

nailer nothing you say is over my head i hear what you are saying and believe your wrong . There is nothing about you that rings success as you complain about the rich and that is bs the rich got that way through smart trading in the market or like bill gates he stole a good idea from steve jobs and that combined with his own talent he is one of the richest men in the world I think he is a liberal and buddies with your other billionaire buddy soros . to me nailer your a misguided kid with a chip on his shoulder who needs to see his words of controversy in this thread to derail a republican thread where you have said your peace. I AM BORED WITH YOUR RHETORIC. Move along in fact why dont you start your own thread preaching what a good job Obama is doing. see who listens no one really want to hear we are all sick of him he needs to go before some looney bastard shoots him and starts a race war.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)




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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)




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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)




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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

Political Hit-Job in the Windy City:
Barack Obama and the New Year's Massacre

Dear Fellow Conservative:

Chicago, 1996. State Senator Alice Palmer (D-Ill.) never saw it coming…

The popular activist, running for re-election (she'd won the previous election with a landslide 82% of the vote), was a sure thing keep her seat.

But on the day after New Year's 1996, a small army of lawyers filed into the hearing room of the Chicago Board of Elections. In a blink, Alice Palmer's name had been struck from the ballot.

So, too, were the names of three other candidates on the Democratic primary ballot - all eliminated on the basis of minor "violations," most of them as picayune as not crossing a "t" or failure to dot an "i."

When the dust settled only a single name remained on the ballot: Barack Hussein Obama. He "swept" to victory… unopposed.
You can't say we weren't warned!

Veteran political journalist David Freddoso has done a very brave, but dangerous thing. As the Alice Palmer affair reveals, bad things happen to people who dare stand in the way of Barack Obama and his Chicago cronies. Indeed, since his election as president, Obama has shown no reluctance to unleash the IRS against his adversaries.

Unlike Ms. Palmer, who never saw it coming, David Freddoso knows full well what "misfortunes" might befall him. But that didn't stop him from writing the truth, namely - that Barack Obama has brought Chicago-style corruption and strong-arm tactics to Washington in order to ram though his massive, union-benefiting welfare-state agenda.
In Gangster Government, the revelations explode page after page…

• On PAGE 8, what Obama learned from his corrupt political godfather, a man whose entire family is on the government payroll or that of government contractors for whom he does legislative favors and receives large contributions in return.
• On PAGE 11, how Michelle Obama received a job promotion with a 200% pay increase at the University of Chicago Hospital immediately after her husband's election to the U.S. Senate.
• On PAGE 12, how the newly elected Senator Obama requested a generous $1 million earmark for Michelle's employer immediately following - guess what? - his wife's promotion.
• On PAGE 96, how Obama's trillion-dollar "stimulus" has been used, not to revitalize the economy, but to protect the jobs of government workers, who in turn contribute massive sums to Obama's re-election campaign.
• On PAGE 43, how Obama cronies warned an investment firm to withdraw its opposition to the Chrysler bailout terms or face the full force of the White House press corps and the destruction of its reputation if it continued to fight.
• On PAGE 193, discover the Obama administration's secret plan to turn the U.S. government into the world's largest landlord.
• On PAGE 130, why under Obama's hush-hush "Labor Plan A" you could return from vacation and find yourself a union member, whether you desire to be one or not.
• On PAGE 161, the real reason why the Obama White House went ballistic and declared open war on the Fox News Channel.
And most important, in Gangster Government you'll learn why the political thuggery we've endured since Obama's inauguration in 2008 is just a preview of the desperate tactics this failed president and his backers will use to secure four more years of power - years our deeply wounded nation cannot bear.

Gangster Government is a truly astonishing, eye-opening book. That's why we've arranged for you to receive a gift copy just for trying the newspaper conservatives rely on for news and insight they can't get anywhere else… Human Events.

If you like knowing what others don't, you'll devour your gift copy of Gangster Government… as well as each issue of Human Events.
Here's a brief sampling from recent issues of Human Events…

• The 2012 election is going to be a nasty dogfight. Obama has little choice, given the horrific state of the economy, but to fight dirty - meaning brace yourself for brutal class and generational warfare, exacerbated by ugly charges of racism. Vote against Obama and you're a racist. That's what demagogic community-organizing, Marxist-leaning Alinsky disciples do - and Human Events thinks it's disgraceful.
• Who outrageously demanded that Boeing - a private-sector American company - should be "forced by the government" to close down its non-union plant in South Carolina? Human Events reveals it was Nancy Pelosi who is apparently unaware South Carolina Boeing workers voted OUT of union status two years ago - of their own free will.
• Greece, Italy, Portugal and possibly other European nations are going down the tubes - all because of bloated government debts that cannot be paid. So what does Obama want to do? The "smartest president in U.S. history" wants another massive stimulus, thus adding greatly to our own national debt. It looks to Human Events that he hasn't learned a thing.
• "Say, let's allow government employees to work at home in their jammies!" It's no joke. Human Events reveals Obama and the Democrats rushed through a law permitting increased "telework" for bureaucrats - perhaps the last people on earth who should be permitted to work at home unsupervised. On the bright side, business at gambling and porn web sites should skyrocket
• We're led by the brainiest administration ever? Their latest brainstorm: If you apply for a job and aren't hired - see a lawyer. And sue. You're being discriminated against because you're unemployed. Trial lawyers think it's a great idea. Really, you can't parody the ideas liberals come up with - it's crazy logic that makes your head spin.
As you can see, Human Events brings you a healthy dose of sanity. Just like you, we take a jaundiced view of much of the "news" foisted upon Americans by sources that, for all intents and purposes, are allied with Obama and his pals.

Human Events does not fear taking on the media heavyweights who, arm and arm with the liberal establishment, are determined to tell you what to think, what to believe, and how to live.

We hit them with the one weapon sure to give them fits - the truth.

Thankfully, you can try truth for a change in the pages of Human Events with this special introductory offer - a full 30-week trial subscription at the reduced rate of just $39.95… a little more than a dollar an issue.


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

*Thankfully, you can try truth for a change in the pages of Human Events with this special introductory offer - a full 30-week trial subscription at the reduced rate of just $39.95… a little more than a dollar an issue.*

Sounds like a deal to me ..


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

another personal attack nailer that all you have your on the ignore list. I certainly don't find your writing to be above mine. further more your pathetic vulgar language is not wanted in this thread, please go away we don't want you or mike here.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)




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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

Nailor,

AGAIN….......Is that the best you got?


> ?


????
The Dude nailed it.
It's a lot shorter and far more truthful than the Filibuster copy and paste non-truths you have exercised here over the last week.
I grew up and live in the Chicago area. The Dude's post is right on.
Regards,
Einstein


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

Looks like Nailor withdrew his last post.
Maybe he crawled in the hole with cartoon Mikey


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

I just love it when you guys sweat!


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

good i hope he stays gone but you know how those left wing wackos are, they hide but they always ruin the party.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

maybe if were lucky mikey will stop posting too. i only read his posts to see if i need to flag them for removal


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

I am lurking in the shadows..like your intelligence…I didn't withdraw anything Einstein….I deleted a post about 20 ago…try and keep up..I know were moving fast for you..Rush talks allot slower for his mentally disabled audience

The dude puts me on ignore..
Brad Nailor +1

When you cant fight..run away..


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)




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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)




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## Knothead62 (Apr 17, 2010)

Let me share something I read a while back. I was reading a past issue of a golf magazine. A reader was going to China for whatever reason and was asking about the female caddies. Bear with me on this. He was uncomfortable with this situation. The magazine answered his letter. Here is basicall what it said- Female caddies in China make $100 a month, more that they would get if they worked in a factory. Now…....if someone is making less than $100 a month in a factory, how can we (USA) compete with people making that in one day?


> ?


??


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Reagan was another legendary crappy republican president..that's why Sarah Palin idolizes him so much. The guy probably was suffering the effects of Alzheimer's for at least half of his second term and you meatheads idolize him like he is the Jesus of the Republican party….Reganomics..ya those were the days…I think he was also behind the genius trickle down theory..


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

*Lance SAID:* further more your *pathetic vulgar language is not wanted in this thread*, please go away we don't want you or mike here. maybe if were lucky mikey will stop posting too. i only read his posts to see if i need to flag them for removal

HUH? I DON'T UNDERSTAND… IT LOOKS LIKE YOU SHOULD BE REMOVED LANCE BECAUSE YOU ARE DEFINITELY A DUD AND NO WHERES NEAR being a dude.

Lance SAID: …and still the dumb little dog barks and barks… no one cares about *that little bastard* he yelps and yelps

Lance SAID: mike *your still just a little Hitler *with fat animals

Lance SAID: …this *damn* administration claims…

Lance SAID: …I think the *only reason no one has wacked Obummer *is that they know Biden is more of a wacko and we dont need that…

Lance SAID: …I am also afraid if *Obummer is re elected he will be killed *by some crazy ***********************************…

Lance SAID: and you *dont deny being a leach do you*...

Lance SAID:…no one cares about the *liberal trash that spews *from your keyboard your just a troll…

Lance SAID:…I am still able to take anything you can dish out and *give it back to your socialist ass no one here ate any ******************** from you…*

Lance SAID:…you *gutless little worm*...

Lance SAID:…*that ******************** is just sick*...


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

More republican hippocracy…


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

we have to DE valuate the dollar and lower wages, stop letting corporate giants charge us a fortune for the junk they make in china. We have to get our buying power back on things they want from us like rice and wheat. we need to sell them our goods or tax the ******************** out of their goods to level the playing field.

Please pardon the left wing wackos posts and don't bother reading them they just distract from the purpose of this thread. to put an end to socialism which is communism under the guise of Obama bail out bills no one has even read yet. we the republicans will once again fix the mess that was caused by the trillion dollar welfare bailout obamanomics . I don't know why people stay where they are not wanted. they are party crashers in a bad way.


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

I actually agree with your first paragraph, and I am happy to see you use a paragraph…then it just goes off the deep end after that…

GW Bush was the first to do bail outs after his administration allowed them all to ruin the economy…..


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

And then there are the Democrats…


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)




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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)




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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

double post removal


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Christmas presents for Mike and David


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)




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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)




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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

C'mon David - at least make fun of people for things THEY said….

The left cant keep facts straight - the " I can see Russia from my House" line was *Tina Fey *on Saturday Night Live…

But hey it fits the narrative they want to tell so why make it honest eh?


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

I dont get you nailer your sensible then you go all left wing. i don't want to battle with you, i want to find a way to save this country. that cut and past childish crap is not productive. lets hear your plan to restore America . I want to know if you want to raise my taxes to give free healthcare to illegal aliens. i think they are illegal and should be deported i think we need to halt immigration and let people qualify to come here like Australia does. I want a return of high morals and end to abortion i want there to be a right to die I want all drugs legalized and i want the money we waste on fighting drug transportation to be spent on rehab for addicts. we will save trillions by legalizing and taxing drug sales. I want a flat tax rate for everyone and I want to put an end to welfare forever. i want to replace it with workfare no more paying for you to have illegitimate children and staying home all day to care for them and doing a crappy job of it. I want high schools to return to vocational education as to many kids don't have a diploma because they are not college bound. I say teach those kids a trade even food services, but give them the tools to support themselves. I say repeal Obama care which is a worse version of Hillery care. what do you have can you be productive.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)




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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)




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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

I want the Democrats to pass a bill that makes it illegal for stupid people to breed. But then again, without the Reublikans being around America would no longer have a two party system. Just sayin'...


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

The democrats have always been big supporters of Eugenics.
George Bernard Shaw was a real piece of work.

Course Margaret Sanger founded planned parenthood to specifically stop Blacks from reproducing

The eugenicists and the immigrationists joined forces to put a stop to this. The plan was to identify individuals who were feeble-minded-- Jews were agreed to be largely feeble-minded, but so were many foreigners, as well as blacks-- and stop them from breeding by isolation in institutions or by sterilization.

As Margaret Sanger said, "Fostering the good-for-nothing at the expense of the good is an extreme cruelty … there is not greater curse to posterity than that of bequeathing them an increasing population of imbeciles." She spoke of the burden of caring for "this dead weight of human waste."

Mandatory steriization still happend in Oregon into the late 80's. 
Not a big surprise that the left still holds this as a core belief as they want a fabian society


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Of course the Rockefellers are big time Dem's and funded creation of gas chambers for Euthanasia…

Eugenics research was funded by the Carnegie Foundation, and *later by the Rockefeller Foundation*. The latter was so enthusiastic that even after the center of the eugenics effort moved to Germany, and involved the gassing of individuals from mental institutions, the Rockefeller Foundation continued to finance German researchers at a very high level. (The foundation was quiet about it, but they were still funding research in 1939, only months before the onset of World War II.)

Since the 1920s, American eugenicists had been jealous because the Germans had taken leadership of the movement away from them. The Germans were admirably progressive. They set up ordinary-looking houses where "mental defectives" were brought and interviewed one at a time, before being led into a back room, which was, in fact, a gas chamber. There, they were gassed with carbon monoxide, and their bodies disposed of in a crematorium located on the property.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Dirt: The democrats have always been big supporters of Eugenics.

*The FEMA, Rockefeller and Republican Secret Eugenics Population Control Plan: More Death, Less Talk *
Massive slavery and population control is now possible simply by keeping the real facts about psychology outside of real courts. TeKKeKism is the art of terror all dressed up in a new age of deception. The American elite are coming out to reveal their secret population control operations which have been ongoing for decades, but nobody really cares. Mass media Mind Control has worked too effectively. They have "controlled assets" virtually everywhere both on the right and the left confusing and misleading most Americans about their real mission. They have been secretly manipulating your deepest belief systems, therefore this truth will not appear as truth. The Rockefeller Population Control Plan, as featured below, was fully endorsed by many of America's top media and political elite. Big Oil is now Big Death and you are really paying for it in ways you may never fully understand. The "new face" of eugenics is very deceptive, as CIA Mind Control has been employed for decades to kill off the American family and millions of families around the world. As the elite protect their own children from this scam, they are partying at the Bohemian Grove with male and female prostitutes and plenty of drugs, sex and public policy mixers! Why are they all going to Bedford, Pennsylvania and the new Illuminati center: the Gay White House? Child Sacrifice Anyone?


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Dirt..that's fascinating..I had never heard of Eugenics…reminds me of Hitlers Master Race Ideology…And as far as the Palin I can see Russia from my house thing..sorry, that was NOT just a Tina Fey joke..I saw the interview where she said it myself…

OK Dude…I will run them down for you..
I want to know if you want to raise my taxes to give free healthcare to illegal aliens. i think they are illegal and should be deported i think we need to halt immigration and let people qualify to come here like Australia does

I am against illegal aliens getting American benefits, and them being in this country in general…hence the ILLEGAL in illegal aliens. I think we need to halt immigration, in my opinion..America is full for a while.. and I like the idea of selectively allowing people to immigrate after being checked out. If you allow foreign students to go to school here they need make sure that's what they are doing and if they aren't they need to go back home.

I want a return of high morals and end to abortion

Nope not with you on this one..who decides what high morals are? I am not against religion but I am against it being shoved down my throat and when it influences the laws I live by..separation of church and state..and I am definitely pro choice, but I am against women that use abortion as birth control..

i want there to be a right to die

I agree..but it is a touchy subject…when you are dealing with terminal illness and depression..we are humane enough to euthanize our animals when its clear they are suffering..

I want all drugs legalized and i want the money we waste on fighting drug transportation to be spent on rehab for addicts.

I agree..not all drugs, but definitely marijuana…besides the huge hippocracy that surrounds the fact that its illegal, there are serious benefits of pain and nausea relief for people with cancer and on chemo and if you have ever watched someone suffer through a six month course of chemo you would want to do anything you could to make them feel better.. trust me ..I know this first hand…..and why not let someone who is suffering alleviate it if they can..even a little..and think of the taxes and revenue that could be gleaned from the legalization of it..not to mention the industry it would create and the farms it could bolster..and the money we would save from prosecuting people that smoke a little weed and putting people in prison for it…

I want a flat tax rate for everyone

Agreed..I have been saying this for years..dismantle the IRS..no more exemptions, schedules etc and no more ways to hide income and use smoke and mirrors to make millionaires look poor on paper..

I want to put an end to welfare forever. i want to replace it with workfare no more paying for you to have illegitimate children and staying home all day to care for them and doing a crappy job of it.

I like the idea of having people work for their assistance. I do think the welfare system while good intentioned, is broken and manipulated by lazy individuals, and it has bred a culture of people that expect to be taken care of. But what about the people that are on disability? I don't mean the fakers and lazy sacks, I mean the real, honest people that legitimately cant work?

I want high schools to return to vocational education as to many kids don't have a diploma because they are not college bound. I say teach those kids a trade even food services, but give them the tools to support themselves

I agree..the wussification of America, and over zealous litigation is turning shop classes into arts and crafts festivals because anytime someone gets hurt, they sell off all the power tools…Not every kids gonna go to college, I support vocational schools..too many trades are going to die on the vine if nobody is interested in learning to work with their hands..everyone just wants to go on American Idol and be a star in 5 minutes…

I say repeal Obama care

Nope I'm not with you on this one..i think its long overdue in this country that everyone should be able to get healthcare without going bankrupt or living a miserable life or dying early because they cant get healthcare…All that noise the republicans make about "Obama Care" is straight from the mouths of the insurance company's trying to protect their profits…


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Gosh, all these bad words about Presidents. Funny, you never hear a bad word about President Jefferson Davis?


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

*I like the idea of having people work for their assistance. I do think the welfare system while good intentioned, is broken and manipulated by lazy individuals, and it has bred a culture of people that expect to be taken care of. But what about the people that are on disability? I don't mean the fakers and lazy sacks, I mean the real, honest people that cant legitimately work?*

David these people are on ssd a form of insurance you have deducted from your check every week . This system is also broke down to feed lawyers. In my own case I sat up on a bar stool height chair that had casters on the bottom this chair is an oscha violation . no chair is to have casters that is taller than a normal office chair. I am very tall but the chair rolled out from under me and i fell 3 feet to the ground, at 50 that a bad fall. I am awaiting ssd because in the fall i fractured my tail bone and herniated 6 disks I cant stand for more than a couple of hours and have a hard time even doing bench work in my shop ,let alone working over a bed for hours. or an operating table I am going to have to be trained to do something within my new limitations. but ssd denies every claim even the legit claims like mine. why you ask so the lawyers have a cash-cow they suck the system for 25 percent of your wages from the date you file to the date your finally approved often on your second appeal . the longer the time between your application and your approval the lawyer makes more money instead of paying to retrain the injured worker to learn a desk job they play games starving the injured worker in the name of fees for the lawyer this is wrong.


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

What system isn't broken down to feed lawyers? That's what happens when lawyers make the laws…


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

mike you are the lowest calling those people the real hijackers is unacceptable. i hope there is a three strikes and your out rule here you should be banned for posting that crap


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)




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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

David put down the night train 20/20

YOU NEVER HEARD PALIN SAY THIS…..didn't happen - 
look it up -

Snopes - - FALSE

The basis for the line was Governor Palin's 11 September 2008 appearance on ABC News, her first major interview after being tapped as the vice-presidential nominee. During that appearance, interviewer Charles Gibson asked her what insight she had gained from living so close to Russia, and she responded: "They're our next-door neighbors, and you can actually see Russia from land here in Alaska, *from an island in Alaska": *

*TRUE - YOU CAN SEE BIG DIOMEDE (RUSSIA) FROM LITTLE DIOMEDE (USA)*

Two days later, on the 2008 season premiere of Saturday Night Live, Tina Fey and Amy Poehler appeared in a sketch portraying Sarah Palin and Hillary Clinton, during which Fey spoofed Governor Palin's remark of a few days earlier with the following exchange: 
FEY AS PALIN: "You know, Hillary and I don't agree on everything . . ."

POEHLER AS CLINTON: (OVERLAPPING) "Anything. I believe that diplomacy should be the cornerstone of any foreign policy."

FEY AS PALIN: "And I can see Russia from my house."

*Sarah Palin never said she could see russia from her house* She is interesting to talk to but not a choice for the whitehouse.

David -
What in Obamacare is it that you like.
I have no problem with the need for reforms to our current system.
Not being dropped for getting sick
Covering pre-existing conditions
those are good, but the new pools nd administration under the internal revenue code??? That I don't support.
THe 2000+ pages is full of mumbo jumbo and TBD later placeholders.
They need to dump that load and start fresh.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Eugenics is pure *progressive* dogma for the past 100+ years

Supported by the top leftist on this page:

I want the Democrats to pass a bill that makes it illegal for stupid people to breed.

Don't see the folks on the right here on LJ proposing selective breeding….only the left just like it has been for the past century.
Yet we get a quotes that it is the republican elite and CIA mind control, from a site that hosts the 9/11 truthers claiming the CIA blew up the towers. I'm really convinced now…..pffft.

I prefer the documented history of the SHaw's, Sangers, This was big at the progressive Universities on the East coast:
Pseudo-Science at Universities
For a time, the doctrine of eugenics exerted considerable influence on American society. Based largely on political and social prejudices, the pseudo-science was taught at schools and universities. Leading institutions, such as Harvard, Cornell and Columbia, offered courses in eugenics. Prominent industrialists like cornflakes magnate J. H. Kellogg supported the creation of eugenics groups and organizations. So-called fitter family contests were held at country fairs, with citizens parading their "good genes." Movies like "The Black Stork" propagated eugenic sterilization. 
During the 1940s, however, the theory of eugenics came under increasing criticism because of its racial prejudices and its lack of scientific foundation. Most American sterilization laws were abandoned during the 1950s. In 1980, former psychiatric patients who had been forced into sterilization banded together for a class-action suit, demanding compensation from the state of Virginia. But a federal judge rejected their suit on the grounds that the U.S. Supreme Court had affirmed the constitutionality of sterilization back in 1927. That Supreme Court ruling was never fought, even in subsequent years. As a result, future damage claims have little prospect of success. And the victims of eugenic forced sterilization have no lobbying power to achieve out-of-court settlements.

Two current exhibits are attempting to shed light on this repressed chapter of American history. The Jewish Federation of Los Angeles, in cooperation with the Goethe Institute, is showing an exhibition of photographs and documents titled "Polluting the Pure." And the Cold Springs Harbor Laboratory, a genetics research institute in the state of New York, is featuring an online exhibit on the history of the American eugenics movement.* Between 1910 and 1940, the venerable Cold Springs Harbor Laboratory on Long Island housed the Eugenics Record Office, the central research facility of the American eugenics movement. Most of the exhibit's 1,200 documents come from its archives.

So take off the foil hat, the black helicopters aren't coming and actually learn about the history of this country.

Sterilizations weren't outlawed in Oregon til 1983….hmmm the states don't get much BLUER than that









http://www.uvm.edu/~lkaelber/eugenics/OR/OR.html


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

DIRT, 
And THAT is why the Republikan Right wants to do away with the Department of Education, I see now… 'shore…

Lance,
I really, really do NOT understand you. You fell on your sphincter WHILE SITTING ON YOUR SPHINCTER, purportedly at "work" in Corcoran State Prison Wow,... just wow.

And to top that off you diss me for falling from a ladder while painting my own house, thus resulting in my collecting healthcare from military service that earned me that healthcare benefit in the first place.


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## S4S (Jan 22, 2011)

I believe any sane and rational person would agree that* Eugenics was a pseudo-science* . It is America's
dirty little secret that is seldom discussed these days . Some believe that it continues under hidden guises 
even to this day . American presidents , Harvard and Yale universities were involved ,the founder of Stanford University , the Rockafeller foundation, the Carnegie foundation, prominent people,whose identities would surprise you when you study it .Yes the Germans were funded in this research by Americans and advanced it from sterilization to selective homocide . Someone once wrote that Jesus would be a Eugenesist if he were to show up in that era . This all took place when no one really understood what a' gene ' even was . Their prejudices overtook their reason and humanity , on a scale that was so acceptable and widespread to be almost as shocking as gas chambers.

I posed the question earlier : what ideologues of of 1939 Munich led to the death of 50 million people ?

Eugenics was an integral part of these ideologues( Nazi race policy). Political pseudo science is a dangerous game . I would suggest both sides in this debate take a deep breath . Even I have questions why someone like John Holden is this Administration's science czar .Or why any one would believe anything Al Gore had to say about global warming or the " precautionary principle ". It is something that interests me .While throwing around sensational accusations about it's support by* current* political parties sounds reactionary …. it may be a way to educate .

I do not have my notes at hand to give references. I would suggest if one were interested in this topic , to visit the University of Virginia's on-line research library and study it . ( Don't use wicca , plz ) . Also look into the relationship between another scientist , Trofim Lysenko and Joseph Stalin , and another* pseudo science* . *

I'M FINISHED NOW* !!!


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## S4S (Jan 22, 2011)

*Plus shipping and handling*



!


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Dirt…I remember watching that interview…I could have sworn she said she could see Russia from her house…I could have sworn she had used the fact that she lived so close to Russia as an example of her foreign policy..maybe your right…I could be confused….I'm not perfect..I make mistakes like everyone else..although I don't regard Snopes.com as the be all end all of information..and I dont drink

As far as Eugenics is concerned, just because I didn't know anything about it doesn't put me in the tin foil hat brigade..
What I like about Obamacare is that at least somebody has recognized the problem, and the need and tried to do something positive about the situation. You talk about reforming the current system but its been broke for a while and nobody seems to be interested in fixing it..why because the insurance companies like the way things are..they have all the power, and their lobbyists make sure it stays that way..what I like about Obamacare is that the insurance company's stranglehold on our healthcare is being challenged…maybe even if it gets killed and found unconstitutional, which I doubt, it would at least maybe bring about some reform in the current system at worst, and at best it will stick around and piss of all you republicans..


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

8 reasons why Ronald Reagan was the worst President of our lifetime

Robert Sobel
Orlando Liberal Examiner
December 3, 2011

If you ever happen to come across a Republican on television these days, chances are that you will hear the name Ronald Reagan. Recent Republican debates are the perfect example of the love fest that the current Republican party has for Reagan as each candidate name drops the former president at every turn. If you only listened to conservatives you would think that Jesus Christ was the only person above Reagan on the totem pole of conservative love. They talk about his love of low taxes, less government and conservative family values. The problem is that when you step out of the conservative dream and come back to reality, you find that not only was Ronald Reagan a bad president, but he was one of the worst presidents we've seen in modern times. Reagan's policies have destroyed the United States for three decades, and for the eight years he was in office, here are eight reasons why Ronald Reagan was the worst president of our lifetime.

1. Reagan cut taxes for the Rich, increased taxes on the Middle Class - 
Ronald Reagan is loved by conservatives and was loved by big business throughout his presidency and there's a reason for it. When Reagan came into office in January of 1981, the top tax rate was 70%, but when he left office in 1989 the top tax rate was down to only 28%. As Reagan gave the breaks to all his rich friends, there was a lack of revenue coming into the federal government. In order to bring money back into the government, Reagan was forced to raise taxes eleven times throughout his time in office. One example was when he signed into law the Tax Equity and Fiscal Responsibility Act of 1982. Reagan raised taxes seven of the eight years he was in office and the tax increases were felt hardest by the lower and middle class.

2. Tripling the National Debt -
As Reagan cut taxes for the wealthy, the government was left with less money to spend. When Reagan came into office the national debt was $900 billion, by the time he left the national debt had tripled to $2.8 trillion.

3. Iran/Contra -
In 1986, a group of Americans were being held hostage by a terrorist group with ties to Iran. In an attempt to free the hostages, Ronald Reagan secretly sold arms and money to Iran. Much of the money that was received from the trade went to fund the Nicaragua Contra rebels who were in a war with the Sandinista government of Nicaragua. When the scandal broke in the Untied States it became the biggest story in the country, Reagan tried to down play what happened, but never fully recovered.

4. Reagan funded Terrorists -
The attacks on 9/11 by al-Qaeda and Osama Bin Laden brought new attention to international terrorism. All of a sudden, Americans coast to coast wore their American flag pins, ate their freedom fries and couldn't wait to go to war with anyone who looked like a Muslim. What Americans didn't realize was that the same group that attacked the United States on 9/11 was funded by Ronald Reagan in the 1980s. Prepping for a possible war with the Soviet Union, Ronald Reagan spent billions of dollars funding the Islamist mujahidin Freedom Fighters in Afghanistan. With billions of American dollars, weapons and training coming their way, the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden took everything they were given and gave it back to the United States over a decade later in the worst possible way imaginable.

5. Unemployment issues -
When Ronald Reagan came into office 1981, unemployment was at 7.5%. After Reagan cut taxes for the wealthy, he began raising taxes on the middle and lower class. Corporations started to ship more jobs out of the United States while hiring cheap foreign labor in order to make a bigger profit. While corporations made billions, Americans across the country lost their jobs. As 1982 came to a close, unemployment was nearly 11%. Unemployment began to drop as the years went on, but the jobs that were created were low paying and barely helped people make ends meet. The middle and lower class had their wages nearly frozen as the top earners saw dramatic increases in salary.

6. Ignoring AIDS -
By the time the 1980s came around, AIDS had become one of the most frightening things to happen to the country in recent memory. No one understood what AIDS and HIV really was and when people don't understand something, they become scared of it. The fear of the unknown was sweeping across the country and Americans needed a leader to speak out about this horrible virus, that leader never came. Instead of grabbing the bull by the horns and taking charge, Reagan kept quiet. Reagan couldn't say the words AIDS or HIV until seven years into his presidency, a leader not so much.

7. Reagan gave amnesty to 3 million Undocumented Immigrants -
In today's GOP, the idea of any immigrant staying in the United States whether they are legal or illegal isn't something that conservatives embrace. What might shock them is that in 1982 Ronald Reagan gave nearly 3 million undocumented workers amnesty. The biggest reason for undocumented workers coming to the United States is because corporations hire them at a cheaper rate than they would an American citizen. All the laws that would have cracked down on companies who hire undocumented workers were, of course, removed from the bill.

8. His attack on Unions and the Middle Class - The Republican war on unions and the middle class has been heating up in states like Wisconsin and Ohio, but it has been going on for a long time. Unions are formed to give a united voice to the workers in an attempt to create fairness between the corporations and their employees. On August 3rd, 1981, PATCO (Professional Air Traffic Controllers Organization) went on strike in an effort to get better pay and safer working conditions. Two days later, taking the side of business, Ronald Reagan fired 11,345 workers for not returning to work.

Ronald Reagan, a bad apple
EDIT: Oh, and lets not forget the Star Wars Initiative, where the gov made up a bunch of fantasy strategic defense devices that they tried to use to influence the Russians, and then proceeded to hand out money to defense contractors to develop these pretend devices. That's where the money went - to defense contractors who wrote proposals, collected billions, played golf and talked to bankesters..and I would bet that allot of the billions handed out went to companies that were owned in part or full by republicans..


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

This ones for all the right wing religious folk..


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

I love Christmas lights. They remind me of the people who voted for Obama. They all hang together, half of them don't work, and the ones that do, aren't that bright.


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Hey thats cute..did your boyfriend Rush think that one up..it sounds like his childish mind at work..

heres one for ya

"Opinions are like asses..everyone's got one, some stink more than others"


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Oh ya, and how can I forget..cross one nut job off the parade of losers for the Republican bid for President..bye bye Pizza man, not so sorry to see you go….and what exactly does suspend my campaign actually mean..I'll tell you what it means..just a typical republican putting a lying spin on whats actually going on..he got his ass handed to him based on his lying, and adulterous behavior, and now he is QUITTING because he knows his campaign is going down like the friggin Titanic..AWESOME! Lets all rejoice…one less idiot in the parade..


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)




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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)




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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

*"Opinions are like asses..everyone's got one, some stink more than others"*

You "NAILED" it…......... you described yourself to a TEA


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

right back at ya, to a Tea …Bagger

Maybe you should take the advice of your signature, and take a nap…a DIRT nap…


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

And you goat serve her with divorce papers while shes dying of cancer in a hospital bed…


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

*LANCE SAID: David these people are on ssd* [Social Security Disability] *a form of insurance you have deducted from your check every week . This system is also broke down to feed lawyers.*

So is the cost of providing healthcare coverage for veterans by deducting Federal taxes from your income on a regular basis.
YET you rail against such healthcare coverage/insurance for me (since I served honorably in the military). *WHY?*

Lance, you also said (in one of YOUR posts NOT already deleted by LJs Admin #374): …it is this kind of entitlement abuse that is bankrupting this country… AND …Mike please tell me why i should be paying for your healthcare…
So why are YOU any different than I? Just because you got turned down by the Social Security Administration? You, as a Republican, continued (until your posts were deleted) to rail against such socialized healthcare programs, *yet you are the first in line* to collect such "Socialized Obamacare" coverage as you call it. WHY?

*LANCE SAID: In my own case I sat up on a bar stool height chair that had casters on the bottom this chair is an oscha violation . no chair is to have casters that is taller than a normal office chair. I am very tall but the chair rolled out from under me and i fell 3 feet to the ground, at 50 that a bad fall.*

Why did you even sit down on this OSHA UN-approved chair in the first place since you KNEW it was a violation? You keep railing about taking "personal responsibility" *yet…*

*LANCE SAID: I am awaiting ssd because in the fall i fractured my tail bone and herniated 6 disks I cant stand for more than a couple of hours and have a hard time even doing bench work in my shop ,let alone working over a bed for hours. or an operating table I am going to have to be trained to do something within my new limitations. but ssd denies every claim even the legit claims like mine.*
AND (post #374)

* i know my state will go to obummer no mater what these people are liberal to the end of the nation which cant afford the cost of this administration. I am also afraid if Obummer is re elected he will be killed*

Lance, my injuries were a total of 23 fractures of vertebrae and ribs (which included 5 fractured vertebrae and 1 compressed disc), so I DO understand what it is like to be seriously injured. I STILL do NOT understand how you exempt yourself YET want to deny others "Obamacare" under SSD.

And finally, *WHERE DO YOU GET OFF THREATENING THE LIFE OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES*? (even if you think you are being sly about it)


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

double post removed


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

That's not the first time he has said that…Kinda like drawing a map of your enemy's/political adversaries and putting cross-hairs on them…it's not an actual gesture of hostility rather more of a suggestion..an idea, a seed sown in a crazy mind…...And then make you slogan something really catchy, and violence and gun oriented like…"Don't retreat, reload"...You betcha'..you run it up the flag pole and see if any crazy second amendment nut job comes out of their bomb shelter and carries out your covert suggestion…


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

Look mike i do not answer your posts so writing to me is a waste of your time this is the last time i will post ANYTHING TO YOU

I hardly think dems have any room to speak of morality when jfk had women in the white house and Clinton raped women while governor of Arkansas no you have zero moral high ground


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

David I agree - especially since Sarah copied the idea from the DNC 2004 map….
Then the Liberal nut job takes a shot at the whithouse…21-year-old Oscar Ramiro Ortega of Idaho, we find that he was in Washington D.C. attending the Occupy protests there.

Certainly must have been the DNC map that got to this guy….


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Well….not to split hairs or anything..those are targets…Palins were clearly gun scope cross-hairs..and this map didn't come with the violent, gun related rhetoric..


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

*Lance SAID: Look mike i do not answer your posts so writing to me is a waste of your time this is the last time i will post ANYTHING TO YOU*

Damn it Lance, MY answer is as truthful an answer as can be given. I leveled with you about my accident situation VS your accident situation and YOU CLAM UP! I HONESTLY ASKED YOU AND YOU GO ALL POLITICAL! I broke 4-times as many back vertebrae and ribs(nearly all right side) as you (within the last 15 months no less) and YOU whine like Hell about YOURS.

YOU suck off the ObamaCare TEAT and want to deny it to others… Wow,... just wow…

FWIW, I cannot see bantering with you anymore, so long as THIS POST stands in remembrance of THAT FACT.

Oh yeah, YOU never asnwered THIS:
*And finally, WHERE DO YOU GET OFF THREATENING THE LIFE OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES?* (even if you think you are being sly about it)

UPDATED: Just to make sure that YOU understand that I understand, 9-years ago I T-boned a deer at 60mph on my Harley and ONLY broke 5-ribs (the left side in THIS case) when I tumbled the bike over me and resulted in a +25k repair of me and the bike. At least I had my helmet on and kept my good looks (NOTICE the Vicodin pin-point eyes stare…):










Michael


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

"In God We Trust!!!" 
WORKING THE SYSTEM

Wow, she must have been really good at her job.
At the top right hand corner of page 17 of the New York Post, January 24, 2009, was a column entitled, "Replacing Michelle" in the National Review, The Week.

Here it is as it appeared:

"Some employees are simply irreplaceable. Take Michelle Obama: The University of Chicago Medical Center hired her in 2002 to run 'programs for community relations, neighborhood outreach, volunteer recruitment, staff diversity and minority contracting'.

In 2005 the hospital raised her salary from $120,000 to $317,000 - nearly twice what her husband made as a Senator.

Her husband, Barack Obama, had just become a U.S. Senator. He requested a $1 million "Earmark" for the UC Medical Center. Way to network, Michelle!

Now that Mrs. Obama has resigned, the hospital says her position will remain unfilled. How can that be, if the work she did was vital enough to be worth $317,000?

Let me add that Michelle's position was a part-time, 20-hours-a-week job.
20hrs. X 52 weeks = 1,040 hours per year
$317,000 divided by 1,040 hours = $304.80 per hour.

My thoughts: How did this bit of "quid pro quo" (scratch my back - I'll scratch yours) corruption escape the sharp reporters that dug through Sarah Palin's garbage and kindergarten files?

I hope this is forwarded so many times that the media will HAVE to cover it..

Recession is when your neighbor loses his job.

Depression is when you lose your job.

Recovery is when Obama loses his job


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

I don't see a post from Lance Mikey.

Go build something. 
I'm leaving too as I'm above this childish crap.


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Rush must be on so you have to get your EIB coffee mug and get ready to hear some lies
Recession is when a Republican is President..The first Bush hosted a recession, the second Bush harpooned the economy..


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Jim,
I already HAVE built something during all of this-A router-based *Horizontal(Mike)* mortising machine for my 2 1/4hp Triton Router with:

++ Dust Collection-4in DC Hose connection plus 1 1/4in hose connection for Triton DC. Has Dust Slots across the face of the base.

++ Lifting Mechanism-for fine-tuning router bit height using 1/4-20 all-thread and cradle.

Still doing some final testing and adjusting of the dust collection system, and then I will post it on LJs.


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## patron (Apr 2, 2009)

Anti-narcotics agents working for the US government have laundered or smuggled millions of dollars in drug proceeds to see how the system works and use the information against Mexican drug cartels, The New York Times reported Sunday.

Citing unnamed current and former federal law enforcement officials, the newspaper said the agents, primarily with the Drug Enforcement Administration, have handled shipments of hundreds of thousands of dollars in illegal cash across borders.

Some 45,000 people have been killed in Mexico since 2006, when its government launched a major military crackdown against the powerful drug cartels that have terrorized border communities as they battled over lucrative smuggling routes.

According to these officials, the operations were aimed at identifying how criminal organizations move their money, where they keep their assets and, most important, who their leaders are, the report said.

The agents had deposited the proceeds in accounts designated by traffickers, or in shell accounts set up by agents, the paper noted.

While the DEA conducted such operations in other countries, it began doing so in Mexico only in the past few years, The Times said.

As it launders drug money, the agency often allows cartels to continue their operations over months or even years before making seizures or arrests, the report said.

According to The Times, agency officials declined to publicly discuss details of their work, citing concerns about compromising their investigations.

But Michael Vigil, a former senior official who is currently working for a private contracting company called Mission Essential Personnel, is quoted by the paper as saying: "We tried to make sure there was always close supervision of these operations so that we were accomplishing our objectives, and agents weren't laundering money for the sake of laundering money."


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Speaking of anti intellectualism, Fox Business news just declared the Muppet's are communist…Seems the story line of the new Muppet's movie features an evil oil baron named Tex Richman..how dare they portray an established well off Muppet as an evil, greedy oil baron, who most assuredly earned all of his imaginary money through hard work and dedication, only to have his pretend reputation damaged by those liberal bastards. Must be a slow day on the island of pretend facts..


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## patron (Apr 2, 2009)

that's the problem 
all around these days

the word *MUST*

seems to *DOMINATE* in almost all messages

what happened to freedom 
of *CHOICE*


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## patron (Apr 2, 2009)

A Seattle woman who is receiving welfare assistance from Washington state also happens to live in a waterfront house on Lake Washington worth more than a million dollars.

Federal agents raided the home this weekend but have not released the woman or her husband's name because they have not officially been charged with a crime.

However, federal documents obtained by KING 5 News show the couple currently receives more than $1,200 a month in public housing vouchers, plus state and government disability checks and food stamps. They have been receiving the benefits since 2003.

The 2,500 square-foot home, which includes gardens and a boat dock, is valued at $1.2 million. And even though the couple has been receiving the benefits for nearly 10 years, records show that they accurately listed the address of their current home when applying for the state and federal benefits.

A federal official told KING 5 that the couple likely took advantage of a loophole, which allows low-income individuals to receive financial assistance to help them pay their rent and move away from housing projects. However, the law does not require officials to verify what type of home the benefits recipient is living in.

As if the million dollar home weren't enough, the supposedly low-income couple also gave money to various charities and traveled around the world to locales in Turkey, Tel Aviv and resort towns in Mexico, according to court records.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

THE OBAMA PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY 
Written by To The Point News 
Friday, 14 October 2011

Presidential Libraries contain all the pertinent information about the respective presidents. This is all of their history before their nominations, the campaign papers, memorabilia, all of the papers from their presidency, and so on; a wealth of information about the man and his life both private and public.

What would Barack Hussein Obama Jr.'s presidential library look like and what would they archive in it? Just exactly what would the design parameters be?

1.) It wouldn't need to be very big because there are no records to archive from before he was president and everything he does as president is either done in secret, no one will admit to it, or a lie.

2.) It would have to be very mobile because by the time he is done as president, no city or state will acknowledge that he ever even visited let alone originally came from there. Plus if the general public ever caught up with it…

3.) Construction material would need to be easily maintained by minimal staff. Preferably something that could be hosed out occasionally and left to air dry.

4.) It would be a good idea if it was a dual use facility so that it could at least get some sort of appropriate use.

Here, then, is the perfect answer to all of the above. Shouldn't cost much more than a trillion or so to build it.










*It already contains the sum total of Barry's knowledge on governing*


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

I think there's some burn behind that outhouse


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

I think she s talking to you dirt..she thinks that outhouse is your place and wants to marry you to get her hands on it..


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## patron (Apr 2, 2009)

wow dude

you get all the best girls

is that you two
rocking in the library


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

heres the W version…


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

David it figures that the W version would be made from biodegradable materials 
at least less than 500 years.

Dems can't even be greener than repubs….Comparing Estates of Bush the Dumber and Al 'we're all going to die" Gore

House #1

A 20 room, 10,000 square foot mansion (not including 8 bathrooms) heated by natural gas. Add on a pool (and a pool house) and a separate guest house, all heated by gas. In one month this residence consumes more energy than the average American household does in a year. The average bill for electricity and natural gas runs over $2,400 per month. In natural gas alone, this property consumes more than 20 times the national average for an American home. This house is not situated in a Northern 'snow belt' area.

House #2

Designed by an architecture professor at a leading national university. This house incorporates every 'green' feature current home construction can provide. The house is 4,000 square feet (4 bedrooms) and is nestled on a high prairie. A central closet in the house holds geothermal heat-pumps drawing ground water through pipes sunk 300 feet into the ground.

The water (usually 67 degrees F) heats the house in the winter and cools it in the summer. The system uses no fossil fuels such as oil or natural gas and it consumes one-quarter electricity required for a conventional heating/cooling system. Rainwater from the roof is collected and funneled into a 25,000 gallon underground cistern. Wastewater from showers, sinks and toilets goes into underground purifying tanks and then into the cistern. The collected water then irrigates the land surrounding the house. Surrounding flowers and shrubs native to the area enable the property to blend into the surrounding rural landscape.

House #1 is located in the ultra-wealthy enclave of Nashville called Belle Meade; *it is Al Gore's house*. House #2 is on a ranch near Crawford, Texas ; it is the residence of *George W. Bush*.


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

I am very familiar with geothermal systems, and while they do require no fossil fuels other than the ones used to generate the electricity for the pumps, the jury is still out on their savings/vs/ installation costs.I do like the rainwater runoff/grey water treatment systems..I would love to do at least a rainwater cistern for my own house. I am a big proponent of alternative energy systems…I have been hearing about solar since the first Arab oil embargo of the early '70s, but you would think in all this time they would have advanced that technology farther forward..hell, it took us less time to build the Saturn V and send a man to the moon. Me thinks the oil lobbyists might have had a hand in that..

It doesn't surprise me that Gore doesn't have a green house..he always struck me as a bit of a windbag, and I don't like his stupid wife Tipper..head of the infamous PMRC…but it does surprise me that Bush does..


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

DrDirt, where did you find this info?


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Scott - that one circulated a bit - google it " Green Gore versus Bush" and you will find all the links including snopes that confirms it as well.

http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl_tale_two_houses.htm
love the conclusion - as they start by defending gore paying big bucks on his energy bills to be supplied with green energy to power the mansion they then have to conclude:

"That said, in terms of eco-friendly design the Gore mansion doesn't hold a candle to President Bush's 4,000-square-foot Crawford, Texas ranch, which relies on recycled water and a geothermal heating/cooling system that consumes 1/4 the amount of electricity a traditional system would use. According to the architect of the ranch, David Heymann of the University of Texas School of Architecture, these features were chosen more for their practical and economic advantages than for their environmental benefits, but that doesn't negate the fact that the "Texas White House," as it is called, stands as a model of environmentally-sound construction."


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

My problems with the Dept of Education: Notice these are not Right wing sites by any stretch.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/05/mark-curran-7-year-old-un_n_1130001.html

BOSTON (CBS) - A 7-year-old boy is being investigated by his South Boston elementary school for possible* sexual harassment *after kicking another boy in the crotch.

The first grader's mother, Tasha Lynch, says she was shocked by the school's decision.

"He's 7 years old. He doesn't know anything about sexual harassment," she said.
So first graders fighting is now sexual harassment.

OR
http://www.wsoctv.com/news/29929337/detail.html
Gastonia, N.C. -Eyewitness News is learning new information about a 9-year-old boy suspended from his Gaston County Elementary school after school leaders said he sexually harassed a teacher.
Emanyea said he called a teacher "cute," but the school claims he used the word "fine." 
In a letter sent to Emanyea Lockett's mother, the school called the little boy's actions equal to sexual harassment.

That is some education they get in elementary schools….


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)




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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Posted: June 24, 2010 06:37 PM

Palin Guilty of Major Ethics Act Violation: Must Return $386,000 in Contributions

Nearly a year after she quit her governorship of Alaska, Sarah Palin was found guilty today of another breach of the Alaska Executive Branch Ethics Act involving her so-called Alaska Fund Trust (AFT), which she established as a private "legal defense fund" while governor.

Timothy Petumenos, independent counsel for the Alaska Personnel Board (and ironically, the same independent counsel who issued the Troopergate findings nearly two years ago while Palin was the GOP vice-presidential nominee), presented the state's Findings, Consent Decree and Settlement Agreement this afternoon from the perfectly named Adventure Room of the Captain Cook Hotel in downtown Anchorage.

In what is an extremely detailed finding, Petumenos ruled that even though Palin assigned the research of forming the fund to her former spokesperson Meghan Stapleton and even though Palin relied on extensive outside legal counsel, that "the Trust itself, as ultimately conceived, violates the Ethics Act." 
2010-06-24-PH2010052504727.jpg

The finding is a stinging rebuke to Palin, who must now return more than $386,000 in contributions to the AFT.

It also forces her longtime political crony Kirstan Cole to be removed from serving as Trustee of the fund.

Perhaps most significantly, Petumenos demanded that "all donors to the Trust, whether they donated before or after the resignation, as promised in the supporting website information, must be publicly disclosed." Costs of more than $80,000 incurred during Palin's governorship can be defrayed only by contributions made after her resignation. Only $33,546 was contributed to the fund following her resignation.

In April of 2009, while still governor, Palin established the AFT as a means of paying what she alleged were more than $500,000 in legal bills owed to her Anchorage-based attorney Thomas Van Flein. According to its official website:

The Alaska Fund Trust is the official legal fund created to defend Sarah Palin from an onslaught of political attacks launched against her, her Family, and colleagues (sic).

Almost immediately afterwards, Eagle River resident Kim Chatman filed an Ethics Act complaint charging Palin with misusing her official position for political gain and receiving improper gifts.

The fund had the appearance of Palin's formal political action committee, SarahPAC, which was raising funds to fuel Palin's national political ambitions. SarahPAC operates under strict federal guidelines for income and expenditure disclosures. The Alaska Trust Fund, however, is actually a private trust, with no state or federal government oversight.

According to of the Alaska Department of Law's Marjorie Vandor, "There is no executive branch state agency with jurisdiction over private trusts nor does our office handle the administration of private trusts." As such, Palin's AFT is little more than a slush fund with zero public transparency or accountability.

Last July, independent counsel for the Alaska Personnel Board Tom Daniel issued a preliminary "probable cause" finding that:

In light of the evidence that the governor expressly authorized the creation of the trust and the fact the trust website quite openly uses the governor's position to solicit donations, there is probable cause to believe that Governor Palin used, or attempted to use, her official position for personal gain in violation of Alaska statute.

Daniel also found "payment of the governor's legal fees by the Alaska Fund Trust will violate the Ethics Act prohibition against a public officer accepting gifts intended to influence performance of official duties."

He particularly cited the troubling political relationship between Palin and Cole, whom Palin had appointed to several state boards in Alaska, including the Agriculture and Conservation Board and the Royalty Oil and Gas Advisory Board. Cole also serves She's also on the board of the controversial state-owned Creamery Corporation (Matanuska Maid). Cole's previous claims that "the governor is not, was not and has not been involved in this trust" simply did not pass the straight-face test.

Daniel recused himself from continuing with the case because his firm has done work for Democrats; he did not want the findings shrouded in controversy. Apparently Petumenos took over the case sometime in January of this year.

Andree Mcleod, the Anchorage-based government watchdog who has filed five Ethics Act complaints against Palin and who was recently transferred "power of attorney" on the AFT complaint, issued a statement today:

"Sarah Palin continues to disappoint. Today's finding makes it obvious that she's out for herself. I've spent more than two years trying to shed light on many of Palin's wrongdoings while governor. Her typical response: to vilify and deride Alaskans who only wanted to hold her accountable for her misconduct; this should give people pause."

Immediately following the ruling, Palin posted a new website sticking out a hand for the Sarah Palin Legal Defense Fund.

Palin's attorney Van Flein of Anchorage, who was to have been the recipient of the ATF's bounty, had foreshadowed today's ruling with an odd posting last night on Palin's Facebook page. "There will be times when Sarah Palin will have to take one for the team," Van Flein wrote, "in order to continue on with her message to the country and simply resolve matters without having to incur crushing personal debt."

McLeod was not buying into any of Van Flein's excuses:

"Never has a governor lowered the bar as low as Palin has when she breached the public's trust over and over again. Her arrogance, sense of entitlement and recklessness while doing the people's business sets a very bad precedent.

"For her to be portrayed as a role model by the media is an absolute travesty. The more people find out about Palin…the more they learn that a 'servant's heart' does not beat within her."


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

So David - based on the above, Barack Obama should still be reelected as president…..everything is running well??

*ironically, the same independent counsel who issued the Troopergate findings nearly two years ago while Palin was the GOP vice-presidential nominee *

Yeah IRONIC is one word for it…

Petumenos ruled that *even though *Palin assigned the research of forming the fund to her former spokesperson Meghan Stapleton and* even though *Palin relied on extensive *outside legal counsel*, that "the Trust itself, as ultimately conceived, violates the Ethics Act."

So EVEN THOUGH it was done outside of the governorship and didn't use state personnel WE decided that it was not ethical.

*presented the state's Findings, Consent Decree and Settlement Agreement this afternoon from the perfectly named Adventure Room of the Captain Cook Hotel in downtown Anchorage.*

They held their presser not in any governmental building but the downtown hotel.

*Daniel recused himself from continuing with the case because his firm has done work for Democrats_; he did not want the findings shrouded in controversy. *

Yeah - I'm the hired gun for the Obama machine.

*The Alaska Trust Fund, however, is actually a private trust, with no state or federal government oversight.

According to of the Alaska Department of Law's Marjorie Vandor, "There is no executive branch state agency with jurisdiction over private trusts nor does our office handle the administration of private trusts." As such, Palin's AFT is little more than a slush fund with zero public transparency or accountability*.

So since they had no jurisdiction to investigate the PRIVATE trust, our little George Soros funded star chamber just DECIDED it was just unethical .

Just as an education for you - one of Alaska's laws that differs from most states, is that in the event of these ethics violations, the Governor is not entitled to state sponsored counsel. All grievances brought by these 529 groups like Move on.org MUST be paid by the state official.
Knowing that the Dem Wackos have been on a "fact finding mission" since there is an opportunity to really put the squeeze on officials they want to get rid of, and specifically use the law to crucify people.


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## tommyt654 (Dec 16, 2008)

Lots of interesting theories and answers here as to how we got here and now what to do about it.Sadly it will never happen as long as we allow our government to become bullied by others into doing what they want. As an example take the current pledge made by certain members of congress to avoid raising taxes . Its inevitable that that cannot continue on in this current state. We unfortunately will have to. Its great that we have now as well as in the past folks in office who cannot be bought or bribed into making such pledges to what I consider a terrorist whose goal is to dismantle our gov't. Had Bush not taken us into 2 wars and allowed the banks and wall street to run amuck we would not even be in this situation. While I'm not a huge fan of Obama I can clearly see why he has failed to get the country moving forward at the behest of the republican party. Some of his ideas are inspiring yet will fail to go forward because of the lack of skills needed by congressional members to agree to eithers demands. This yr I'm voting against all current incumbents regardless of how they have performed in hopes to send them all a message. It is WE they people not the wealthy or corporations that make up this great country


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Dirt..
You can dispute every fact there all you want or should I say twist, and really…your gonna go that far to defend her? You really think shes being persecuted by the left? She didn't do anything unethical? Your as delusional as she is..So I guess the people who want to investigate wrongdoings are just using the law to persecute an innocent political figure..I dont need an investigatory committee to tell me that woman is a lying, self serving, delusional gun nut whack job, who could care less about this country, unless it puts money in her pocket or her sad sorry face on the television..


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

No David, Would you say the Clinton Impeachment for a blowjob was Honest fact finding or a SOLELY political hatchet job?
Read a little about the woman from lebanon that was denied her permit for a Falafal cart that filed 30% of the charges - 
http://www.vanityfair.com/online/daily/2009/07/meet-sarah-palins-worst-nightmare
One of the ethics complaints was that Greta van Susternen came to Palins office for an interview during the presidential campaign… The claim is that is a misuse of government property because they met in the state owned building..

maybe we can claim the same for Obama in the whitehouse press room…. since he talked to reporters in the whitehouse…it must be an ethics violation???

You accurately stated -
..I dont need an investigatory committee to tell me that woman is a lying, self serving, delusional gun nut whack job, who could care less about this country, unless it puts money in her pocket or her sad sorry face on the television..

I would say the same about all 535 senators and reps in Washington….so what is it that she does that is so unique?

You saying Barney Frank is honest about Fannie and Freddie?
How about the insider trading from Nancy Pelosi? oh wait the Congress exempted themselves from that law… Guess Pelosi really is Honest right???? LOL


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

I'm not gonna sit here and defend politicians..any of them. They are all self centered and looking to advance their careers and bank accounts…all of em..doesn't matter what side of the aisle they are on…I just happen to dislike Palin more than the rest


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)




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## S4S (Jan 22, 2011)

* KITH ME !*


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

Moment !!! Good God, man ! Whatever did you do to that girl ?


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

David glad you see that Palin is no different than other politicians.

I'd tolerate 2 palins just to be rid of Nancy Pelosi


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Sorry wudnhevn
It isn't true it is a satire piece - - I think they attributed it to 'the Onion'


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

I love the Onion news..funny stuff..

Dirt… I'll see your two Palins, and raise you a Perry, A Bachman, and two Hermann Cains…

Moment….that's one of the most attractive goofy faces I have ever seen!


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)




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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Raise you a barbara "I earned my title Boxer, Barney Frank and two Charlie Rangels
and one discarded Weiner :-0


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

*DIRT: Sorry wudnhevn
It isn't true it is a satire piece - - I think they attributed it to 'the Onion'

CR1: What a miserable worthless sack of filth. Sides? Anti American pig.*

It appears that CR1 doesn't pay attention either… "If it sounds juicy just bite!"

It is enough to make one wonder how/why we engage these uninformed individuals… just sayin'


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

WoodnHell,
So… where did your graphic post go?... POOF!


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Yep, I flagged both. By whatever means necessary…


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

well if we could all stay on topic and stop the personal attacks we could get some where but you all just want to fight so lets have a real discussion Obama was in rev wrights church for decades that preach racism and people were still dumb enough to believe that while in the church he never heard wright say one racist thig yet tons of films show Obama in the church while the crap was being said


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

How about GOP leading 2012 Candidate Newt Gingrich, who while still in high school was boinking his Geometry teacher? Does THAT mean he would be a womanizer later on in life?

Oh wait a minute, Newt HAS BEEN and currently IS a womanizer/sex-addict. Oh drat…


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Maybe it means Newt's geometry teacher is a pedophile that liked to boink her students and ended up marrying one?

Which point of view is the right one?
Gee didn't Van Halen make a music Video for "Hot for Teacher"? What teenage boy is NOT a sex addict (or at least a wanna-be) ;-)

Yep CR they snookered you - - - but these are what makes the best satire, they put in just enough of the ridiculous but true stuff in that the extra Leap of faith is believable.


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

. , .

There…. I put in the periods, and comma for your post Dude….


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

*DIRT: Maybe it means Newt's geometry teacher is a pedophile that liked to boink her students and ended up marrying one?*

It is far more than that, THIS kind of stuff runs in Newt's family you know like father like son…

Newt's father RAPED his mother and she conceived Newt. Dad was 19 and Mom was well underage at 16. Too bad that pregnancies conceived under RAPE were not aborted back in the 1940s. Interestingly, Gingrich was eventually elected to Speaker of the newly Republican House. *During this distinguished, four-year tenure, Gingrich faced eighty-four charges for ethics violations. And that's not even counting those from his immediate family. *


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

yawn and Clinton was actually impeached for getting blown….
Rangel had ethics charges that were far greater - but since dems were in charge - no penalties.
Are we really surprised that pelosi's committee went after the architect of the Contract with America??
Now Pelosi wants to tell us her insider trading riches are OK?
Not defending Newt…what he did was wrong - - but who is cleaner…Mr Chicago Barack? pffft LOL

We really studying conception of the candidates….??

I think Newts Current wife has a *moviestar appearance*.

Do you see the resemblance? Eyes are the windows to the soul ;-)










Mars Attacks










C'mon Mike you know you're smilin….step into the light…


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)




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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Good one Dirt..I do see the resemblance..Anybody that hands his wife divorce papers while shes lying in a hospital bed has no soul..


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

David if that is how it really went down… I agree, but gingrich's daughters say that isn't true - and the quote is from a fired campaign worker….so who knows.

What is UNDENIABLY true is she got cancer and he bailed after almost 20 years Marraige.
Makes him the same as John Edwards….same situation wife has cancer and he has a woman on the side, and bails..

I don't buy the "Sex Addict crap" if he is a womanizer that would be like the years under Kennedy, and Clinton - - - frankly I think things ran pretty well during their tenures.
I am trying to focus only on presidents/presidential candidates - rather than all the senators and Reps, with the toe tapping, Wiener, Jack Ryan, or Ted Kennedy killing women in the river…, and on and on and on

DC really is a swamp both literally and figuratively….Don't think Nancy really drained anything but her bladder for the last umpteen years.

I have met Newt when He and former Senator and NBA player Bill Bradley. It was a cool roundtable for the audience at our last Chamber of Commerce Dinner.
This coming January it will be the guy from "Catch me if you Can" Frank Abagnale Jr. 
January 2010 it was Sarah Palin - - 
I got to meet them and get the professional photo…


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

This thread reminds me of the need for each of us to choose a side, support secession and move on down the road cause we ain't never going to agree.

We can reconvene in 10 years and see how things are working for each of us.

Cut the cloth before it tears.


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## tom427cid (Aug 21, 2011)

cr1
Not true about process servers--at least in VT, I know for a fact that a server is not needed.
tom


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Some people….they block you but still seem to respond to your posts…somehow…hmmm…

Blah, Blah, Blah….just counter intelligence bull…oh, all hail the ever true fact bringer…your the expert on everything, nobody questions your information, because it's righteous..

*Even Gingrich's daughter says that the divorce was Mrs Gingrich's idea and that he was in the hospital that day just to bring the girls to see their mother.
*

Of course that's exactly what happened because Newts spin machine said its so….The republitard party has to get busy and polish that turd because he's all they got left besides that embarrassing lineup of canditards that are falling faster than the Republican congresses approval rating..

* I'm wondering it this civil war might best be taken to a full on shooting war.*

Oh ya, just like a Republican to get the guns out…"next time were bringing ammo"..


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## GMman (Apr 11, 2008)

I would go with THE DONALD


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

I would go with THE DONALD

...Duck?


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

Donald's wigweavecombover would never take a single chopper disimbarkment.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

Did you ever notice every time your winning a argument wth Mike he up and post some ******************** that is irrelevant to the topic. I want to know where this lie about newts dad grew up from and exactly what it has to do with the race . I can tell you the dimwits party that's the ones with the Jackass as a logo , is doing way worse in approval rating than a republican congress that wants a payroll tax cut for the middle class. I can tell you That if Obummer vetoes the Tax cut he is done. As the exodus is about to begin as key members of the Obubba administration have given notice they are leaving at the end of the first term. reportedly in order to have a chance to save face.


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

First of all you have never been winning an argument with Mike..Secondly, an article just came out that huge numbers of people are not happy with the REPUBLICAN dominated congress and want to wipe out all the incumbents. This would be due to the partisan way they automatically oppose any legislature that the President wants to put through, just on the principle that they want to ruin him, with total disregard for how it affects the American people. The worst thing is it gives you lunkheads more ammo to bitch about how Obama hasn't accomplished anything. How is he supposed to accomplish anything when the Republican dominated congress keeps shooting down his proposals, and wasting time trying to repeal his health care package. The congress is essentially conducting a witch hunt, at the American taxpayers expense, and they will pay for it dearly at the polls.

As far as Obama loosing the election…you guys better come up with a better candidate, or it's in the bag for Obama…4 more years..I like the way that sounds…now you republitards can see what it felt like when Bush the IDIOT got re elected for four more years, on his "scare em here so we can fight em over there" re election campaign…

4 more years
4 more years
4 more years..


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

*Lance: I want to know where this lie about newts dad grew up from and exactly what it has to do with the race .*

Oh BUT I don't want to be only that "cut-n-paste'r" you so want to accuse me of. *;-)*

So it looks like these Repugs actually support *statutory rape*(Leroy),*sexual harassment*(Leroy, Cain), and *adultery*(Leroy) in their ideal Presidential Candidates.

Just remember: *A vote for Newton LEROY Gingrich is a vote for the pro-sex crime Party.*


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

NOTE: Leroy's maternal "grand-mother" was all of 30yr old when Leroy was born. Definitely a family values history here…NOT!

Newt Gingrich Biography
*Newton Leroy Gingrich (McPherson)* (born. June 17, 1943)
Newt Gingrich was born as Newton Leroy McPherson to young parents Kathleen Daugherty (age 16 and Newton Searless McPherson on June 17, 1943 in the Harrisburg High School. Newt's ancestry is deeply routed in the state of Pennsylvania dated back to the 1600s and 1700s when his ancestors first arrived in America from Scotland and Germany. Newt's father signed up with the Navy soon after marriage, but the marriage to Newt's mother ended shortly after he was born. Later in life, Kit Gingrich met and married Bob Gingrich who then adopted Newt. At this time, the world opened up to Newt because his nearsighted vision was corrected.

*Newt ended up marrying three times* in his lifetime and not without controvesy. In 1962, Newt married his High School geomety teacher, Jackie Batterley, he 19 and she 26. The couple shared two daughters, Kathy Gingrich Lubbas (President of Gingrich Communications# and Jackie Gingrich Cushman #author and political commentator). Newt coauthored the book 5 Principles For A Successful Life with dauther, Jackie. Together with Kathy, Newt produces public policy documentaries. Newt's marriage with Jackie ended in 1980 after he began an affair with much younger, Marianne Ginther. The marriage with Marianne Ginther was rocky, especially in 1993 when he met his third wife, Callista Bisek , a staffer in the House of Representatives born in 1962 and 37 years younger than him. Newt says he is finally happy in marriage with the young, Callista Gingrich.

*Newt Gingrich Family Tree*
*Newt Gingrich Mother - Kathleen Daugherty McPherson Gingrich *(1925-2003)
Kit Gingrich led a hard life that started with the violent death of her father in a railroad accident when she was only 14 years old. Her mother crumbled emotionally after losing her husband and failed to support the family adequately. Kit started working for a cleaning service in their home town of Hummelstown. *At 16, her mother did not set boundaries for her which led to a relationship with 19 year old Big Newt McPherson*. Once pregnant, her mother forced Kit to marry big Newt. The married ended not long after the birth of her son. Later in life she met a hard nosed military man, Robert Gingrich, with who she married and had 3 daughters Susan #Snow#, Roberta, and the much younger Candace. Newt Gingrich Maternal Grandparents :
f: Jacob Leroy Daugherty (ca 1890 - 1939)
Died in a railroad accident when his daughter Kit was 14 that devastated his family.

m: Ethel M. Hendricks (ca 1896 - 1942)
Ethel Daugherty worked as a teacher and inspired her grandson to read and increase his vocabulary. Newt Gingrich's public speaking skills can be attributed to his grandmother Daugherty.

*Newt Gingrich Father - Newton Searles McPherson* (12/24/1923 - 10/1970)
Big Newtie as Kit Gingrich calls him was not the ideal husband and father. He served in the Navy and was reported to be abusive to his young wife, which *ended their marriage after their son Newt was only 3 days old.*

f: Robert Nelson Kerstetter (1888 - 1930)
*Newt's paternal grandfather was quite the ladies man.* His ancestry can be traced back to Johann Martin Kerstetter I, born in Germany and settled in Lancaster, PA in the early 1770s. Robert Kerstetter had *married at least 3 women in his short life and sired 10 children in wedlock. *He never married Newt Gingrich's grandmother.* She was 15* and Robert was 37. He worked in a steel machine plant as a hand borer. He did not live long after the birth of Newt Gingrich's grandfather.

m: *Sarah Louise McPherson* (1905 - 1982)
Newt's maternal grandmother's family hails from Scotland. *She became pregnant to a married man at the age of 14.* In an effort to cover up her pregnancy, the parents raised Newt Searles McPherson as their own son.

*Newt Gingrich Adopted Father - Robert Gingrich* ()
Drafted into the Army during the war. He is described as a strict totalitarian who never gave Newt or his half sisters any credit for being successful at anything. Newt learned how to debate with hard nosed opponents through his volatile childhood with Bob Gingrich. Bob Gingrich adopted Newt and had 3 daughters of his own with his wife Kit, Susan (called Snow), Roberta, and Candace.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

statutory rape now your story changes because she is 16 well buddy that is not statutory rape as the age of consent was 13 nice lie.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Maybe in YOUR tribal village Lance…


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

The guy from WV is staying out of this one, lol.
Do you hear banjo music, or is it just me?


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

*EXACTLY!*


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

why is that Al what is the age of consent currently in Wv Al California is 16


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

A generic Republican candidate now holds an eight-point advantage over President Obama in a hypothetical Election 2012 matchup for the week ending Sunday, December 4. This is the largest gap measured between the two since early September.

The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey of Likely U.S. Voters finds the generic Republican earning 49% support to Obama's 41%. Three percent (3%) prefer some other candidate, and seven percent (7%) are undecided.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Uh… Lance 16 is NOT 13,... DOAH! ... Just sayin'...


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

Mike Flynn
Will Obama Administration Hold Military Paychecks During Government Shutdown?
by Mike Flynn

As readers of Big Government know, an impasse over a few billion dollars in proposed spending cuts threatens to shutdown the federal government. (And, by a few billion dollars I mean, rounding error.) As regular readers should also know, I've come to embrace a shutdown, rather than fear it.

As this recent Congressional Research Service report explains, if the government were to shutdown, an OMB Directive issued in the 1980s (along with a handful of legal opinions) guide what parts of government continue to function and what parts must close down. Short story, all of the important functions of government, i.e national security, the military, air traffic control, border security, Social Security payments, etc., will continue to function. The parts that have to shut down…well, lets just say they are candidates for permanent cuts. I mean, if the country functions for several weeks without a few hundred thousand 'non-essential' employees, couldn't we probably function without them forever? I'm not saying every one of these jobs should necessarily be eliminated…but it isn't a good place to start?

Sensing the potential PR nightmare from this, it seems the Obama Administration may have decided to raise the stakes on a shutdown. According to draft guidance from the Pentagon, the Obama Administration will require military personnel to report to work…but, will hold their paychecks until the impasse is resolved. As Government Executive explained in a March 15th article:

Military personnel and exempt Defense Department civilian employees are required to continue working without pay during a government shutdown, according to guidance from the Office of the Secretary of Defense.

In a memo prepared earlier this month, Defense officials noted that service members and some civilian workers, including those involved in national security and the protection of life and property, still must report for duty but will not be paid until Congress appropriates funds to reimburse them for that period of service. All other employees will be furloughed, the memo stated.

Military personnel are not subject to furlough.

This is new.

During the last government shutdown, in 1995, troops continued to receive their paychecks. According to Federal Times:

When the government was shut down in 1995, military personnel continued to report to work and were paid, but the planning guidance sent to the services and defense agencies says a shutdown this time will be different.

"All military personnel will continue in normal duty status regardless of their affiliation with exempt or non-exempt activities," says the draft planning guidance that was prepared for the services and defense agencies. "Military personnel will serve without pay until such time as Congress makes appropriated funds available to compensate them for this period of service."

During the 1995 shutdown, the Clinton Administration followed the OMB guidance issued during the Reagan Administration. The Obama Administration, it seems, is tacking a different direction.

Let me be clear, the guidelines proposing to hold military paychecks are, according to the news reports, draft guidelines. It is possible the Obama Administration has abandoned these punitive guidelines. And, even if they implemented these guidelines, military personnel would most likely eventually receive their pay, once a budget agreement is reached. But, why even change the policy and subject our military to partisan political battles. The policy is certainly a change, but it doesn't provide much hope.

Hopefully, they will clear this up quickly.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Lance, I'm not sure what the legal age of consent is here in WV. I think it's determined by the father and his shotgun


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

well thats just grand Al it says bad things to me you can screw anyone who is over 11 if your less than 4 years apart now this is a vague law I must say and Mike call me tribal roflao


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

you the only one sick enough to even think that mike thats why i have ignored you for 3 weeks i am only giving you one chance to stop insulting me of i will ignore you forever


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Lance, as a retired career teacher and public school administrator, all I can say is that when some 50yr old adult male appears/acts overly concerned with arguing the legality of the age of consent for unrelated young girls to have sex, I BECOME VERY CONCERNED about that adult. I have seen and heard way more than I can even discuss from the victims of this kind of abuse through the years in my career and REFUSE to put up with it from some online troll. Clean up your act man. Don't EVEN hint that you think it is OK.


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

cr1=lawyer….

that explains ALLOT..


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

Former House Speaker Newt Gingrich has surged to the largest national lead held by any candidate so far in the race for the Republican Presidential Nomination.

A new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey of Likely Republican Primary Voters finds Gingrich on top with 38% of the vote. Former Massachusetts Governor Mitt Romney is a distant second at 17%. No other candidate reaches double-digits. (To see survey question wording, click here.)

(Want a free daily e-mail update? If it's in the news, it's in our polls). Rasmussen Reports updates are also available on Twitter or Facebook.

The national survey of 1,000 Likely Republican Primary Voters was conducted on November 30, 2011 by Rasmussen Reports. The margin of sampling error is +/- 3 percentage points with a 95% level of confidence. Field work for all Rasmussen Reports surveys is conducted by Pulse Opinion Research, LLC. See methodology.
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We conduct public opinion polls on a variety of topics to inform our audience on events in the news and other topics of interest. To ensure editorial control and independence, we pay for the polls ourselves and generate revenue through the sale of subscriptions, sponsorships, and advertising. Nightly polling on politics, business and lifestyle topics provides the content to update the Rasmussen Reports web site many times each day. If it's in the news, it's in our polls. Additionally, the data drives a daily update newsletter, the Rasmussen Report on radio and other media outlets.

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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Cost of a Republican, rag full of lies, tainted spin tactics, and twisted information - Just $3.95 a month

The amount of ridiculous, lies, and bulls**t - Priceless…


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

The Dems are going to have a field day with ol' Leroy running for the GOP! Just for starters…

*Newt Leroy Gingrich began dating his math teacher at age 16:*
It's widely known that Gingrich's first wife, Jackie, was once his high school geometry teacher. "To this day, the official story is that he started dating Jackie when he was 18 and she was 25," says Richardson. But, according to Marianne Gingrich, *"he was really just 16."*

*Newt Leroy Gingrich cheated on his wife, then compared her to a car:*
A few months after she had been diagnosed with multiple sclerosis, Marianne Gingrich confronted Newt, and he admitted he was having an affair (with Callista Bisek, then 32, a former Hill staffer who later became his third wife). The couple tried to talk through it, but Gingrich got stuck comparing his wife and lover to cars, saying Marianne was a Jaguar and all he wanted was a Chevrolet. "I can't handle a Jaguar right now," Gingrich said several times. "All I want is a Chevrolet."

*"Family values" don't apply to Newt Leroy Gingrich:*
When Marianne confronted Newt about his cheating, he had just returned from a speech where he spoke of the importance of family values. Yet he asked her to simply tolerate the affair. She refused, and asked him how he could give high-minded speeches while simultaneously running around on his wife. *"It doesn't matter what I do," he answered. *"People need to hear what I have to say."

*He borrowed jokes from his ex-wife:*
Explaining how his current wife, Callista, is simultaneously younger but more mature than he is, Gingrich tells Richardson, "Callista and I kid that I'm 4 and she's 5, and therefore she gets to be in charge." When Marianne hears the anecdote, she's stunned. "You know where that line came from? Me. That's my line. That's what I told him," she says. She pauses, then says, "I'm sorry, that's so freaky."

*"Newt Leroy Gingrich's a sociopath, but he's our sociopath:"*
In 1997, after being fined $300,000 by the House Ethics Committee, "Gingrich started to deteriorate," Richardson writes. "He started yelling at people, which he'd never done before, and he'd get weirdly 'overfocused' on getting things done - manic, as if he was running out of time. He started taking meetings while eating, slurping his food, as if he weren't aware or didn't care how strange it looked. The staff responded with gallows humor: 'He's a sociopath, but he's our sociopath.'"

Sources: Esquire, Wash. Monthly, Newser, AlterNet, New York


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

I can't wait to watch the debates - What does Obama really run on?? "I passed Healthcare on the backs of seniors by cutting 500 Billion from Medicare while claiming the repubs want to throw granny off a cliff?" Maybe the adding 22billion in fees applied only to those companies making or importing NAME BRAND prescriptions
or the 149Billion from a 40% excise tax on Cadillac health plans - but exempting the dem special interests.

I can already imagine good gambling games of how many times Obama says "Umm" "Ahhh" and "Let me be perfectly clear". Obama is terrified of going head to head with Newt, because while Obama is bright, with no teleprompter he will make Dan Quayle seem like a brilliant statesman.

Newt is fast on his feet-something Obama and McCain sorely lacked.

I remember the really tough questions from grade schooler - - -Why do you want to be president.
I would have though he would have a really solid canned answer before he ever decided to run but…...

America, uh, is… is no longer… uh… what it, it could be, what it once was. And I say to myself, I don't want that future for my children.


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## tom427cid (Aug 21, 2011)

IMHO I do not think that Newt is the answer to solving the problems we are currently faced with. I am not loaded with facts,figures and quotes but my memory of Newts tenure in DC is that Newt was more concerned with Newt than the common man.
Just my .02
tom


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

A vote for Newt would be like a vote for Khan..kinda like how I would vote for a stick before I would ever vote for Republican..

*I am not loaded with facts,figures and quotes but my memory of Newts tenure in DC is that Newt was more concerned with Newt than the common man.* Exactly..but isn't that every Republican?

The only way Newt is fast on his feet is shuffling between mistresses..lying, filthy cheating scumbag…but you Republicans like your candidates rich and sleazy…like a good lawyer..


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Republicans are outraged over Obama's 17 day Christmas vacation, but George W. Bush took at least 4 vacations that were longer than Obama's including one scheduled for five weeks in August 2005.

The right has been using the payroll tax extension against Obama by claiming that he is going on a long Christmas vacation while the middle class suffers. (The White House has stated that the vacation may be delayed if the payroll tax extension is not passed. What's most interesting is that Obama's Christmas break isn't that long or unprecedented.

George W.Bush's August 2005 vacation which was scheduled for five weeks, but was cut short by two days due to Hurricane Katrina, was at the time the longest presidential vacation in 36 years. As the Washington Post wrote, "The president departed Tuesday for his longest stretch yet away from the White House, arriving at his Crawford ranch in the evening to clear brush, visit with family and friends, and tend to some outside-the-Beltway politics. By historical standards, it is the longest presidential retreat in at least 36 years." Bush's advisers had grown sensitive to the charges that the president was on vacation too much so they sprinkled some day events into his vacation calendar.

In August 2002, Bush took a 25 day vacation away from the White House that was once again sprinkled with day trips to make it look like the president was still working, but after these little trips, he always returned to Crawford not D.C. At the time The LA Times wrote, "Administration officials clearly are sensitive to any criticism that Bush's 25-day break at his ranch near Crawford, Texas, is too long, given the economy and the threat of terrorism." Bush also went on vacation for a month in August of 2003.

The most infamous of all Bush vacations was the 27 day break he took in August of 2001, one month before the 9/11 attacks. In August 2001, the AP wrote, "President Bush seems to bolt from the White House every chance he gets. He begins a month-long vacation on his Texas ranch today, and by the time he returns he will have spent nearly two months of his presidency there. And that doesn't include the many weekends he's spent at Camp David, the presidential retreat in Maryland's Catoctin Mountains."

Then we have the case of Ronald Reagan who took a 25 day vacation in August 1983 while unemployment was at 9.5%. The Washington Post wrote, "The negative news coverage that the president abhors was a topic of discussion at a White House breakfast the day before Reagan left on his present 25-day trip, the 17th stopover at his ranch since his election." The GOP deified Ronald Reagan once took a 25 day vacation, but Obama can't have 17 days off for Christmas with his family.

Obama has spent fewer days on vacation than Bush or Reagan, and it is likely that his 2011 Christmas break will be delayed just as his 2010 Christmas vacation was. President Obama said that he will not go on vacation until Congress passes an extension of the payroll tax cut. Obama doesn't need the working vacation cover story that was utilized by both Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush. The difference between Obama and his Republican predecessors is that he is going to stay on the job until the work is done.

In this day and age the president can work from anywhere, but every time Republicans try to make political hay out of Obama going on vacation it only serves to remind the American people that Barack Obama is willing to delay his vacation in order to do right by them.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Do we need a new President?

*NOT ONE LIKE THIS!*


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Mike, I love you man, but that's^ a bit unfair. But I do love goats. 
He's (W) awkward and embarrassing, I'll give you that. 
But I remember when I heard the news; I didn't exactly know what to do.
I'm no leader, granted; but I was a bit paralyzed myself.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

I understand AL, but in that situation I sure as Hell would at least be conferring with all aids present and asking for immediate status reports… NOT READING ABOUT MY PET GOAT!

The man was/is useless, and what does the GOP offer up as their "next" best thing in the world,...*"LEROY?"* They will have to add an entire NEW wing to the White House JUST TO HOUSE all of *Leroy's* first ladies,... geez… and the red lights in the WH halls… I can't bear to even imagine THAT.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)




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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Hey Mike - *NO NEED TO SHOUT - decorum PLEASE*


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Indeed el Rex-ino *;-)*


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Watching the combatants here is such fun. Almost as good at watching History of the World Part 1 again.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)




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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

*It's Good to be KING* ...........Rex.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)




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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

that one kills me


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)




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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Anyone know why Santa has not had any Children?


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## S4S (Jan 22, 2011)

Wha ?
!



!


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

good one Moment it reminds me of the deficit under Obummer it grows and grows


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)




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## S4S (Jan 22, 2011)

Holy Shiva ! I Like that Sutra one , Dude .


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

I saw on TV where Gingrich was speaking and I swear a crowd of women in the audience shouter neuter.


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## S4S (Jan 22, 2011)

Wow , I saw that too Roger. it was kindda rude


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)




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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Moment;
Glad you heard it too, I thought I was hearing things.
I keep asking if anyone knows why Santa does not have any children, because it seems strange that the guy comes down a chimney once a year, with presents, but doe not have a family of his own.
I know there is an answer there somewhere …... ?


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)




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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)




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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)




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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)




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## S4S (Jan 22, 2011)

I was always told that there was a Mrs. Clause , go figure…huh . I'll bite….Why ?


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)




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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Moment; *You really need to read it to understand*.
Glad you heard it too, I thought I was hearing things.
I keep asking if anyone knows why Santa does not have any children, because it seems strange that the guy comes down a chimney once a year, with presents, but doe not have a family of his own.
I know there is an answer there somewhere …… ? ok?


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## S4S (Jan 22, 2011)

That's late night stuff Rex . : ))) You had to take me down the apples and pears !


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Moment;
You need some rosie lee, especially after visiting the how's your father for a pony. That's the way it is me old china, have a good nosh, a gasper, maybe some bubble and squeak and a sarny. Bob's yer uncle.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

IS that Bow Bells I hear????


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## Magnum (Feb 5, 2010)

*Santa Has Children! * He's just been around for a long time and his kids are all *Grown Up Now.*

This One is His First Born.* She went out on Her Own.*

*I forgot what this Post is about?



Did I do something wrong

Click to expand...

**Rick ;-}*


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Merry Christmas Rick, you'll have your hands full.

Q. What did Santa say to Rudolf when the sleigh crashed into the outhouse?

A. Dammit Rudolf-- I said the Schmidt House.


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## Magnum (Feb 5, 2010)

*Ten Reasons A Christmas Tree Is Better Than A Woman*

10. A Christmas tree doesn't care how many other Christmas trees you have had in the past.

09. Christmas trees don't get mad if you use exotic electrical devices.

08. A Christmas tree doesn't care if you have an artificial one in the closet.

07. A Christmas tree doesn't get mad if you break one of its balls.

06. You can feel a Christmas tree before you take it home.

05. A Christmas tree doesn't get mad if you look up underneath it.

04. When you are done with a Christmas tree you can throw it on the curb and have it hauled away.

03. A Christmas tree doesn't get jealous around other Christmas trees.

02. A Christmas tree doesn't care if you watch football all day.

01. A Christmas tree doesn't get mad if you tie it up and throw it in the back of your pickup truck.

*And!! Roger I have the Answer to Your Question! Dare I Post It????? *

"I keep asking if anyone knows why Santa does not have any children, because it seems strange that the guy comes down a chimney once a year, with presents, but doe not have a family of his own."

*YES! It's In There!! *


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)




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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

There's nothing more hilarious that someone getting maced.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Geese David *A vote for Newt would be like a vote for Khan..kinda like how I would vote for a stick before I would ever vote for Republican..*
Do you mean "Genghis" or "Star Trek:Wrath of"

Yep always good to be informed and vote the issues there mr Stick vs Any Republican….oh wait I thought you think for yourself… my bad!

*The only way Newt is fast on his feet is shuffling between mistresses..lying, filthy cheating scumbag…but you Republicans like your candidates rich and sleazy…like a good lawyer..*

Geeze suppose you should consider inserting Democrat and Clinton in there….. Troopers bringing in prostitutes,Gennifer Flowers, Paula Jones, Elizabeth Ward Gracen, Sally Perdue, and Dolly Kyle Browning

And of course Raping Juanita Broaddrick …..Oh and he also was a lawyer.

Didn't see where Newt drowned any women in a river like the drunk bastard Teddy Kennedy

Lord knows Jack and Bobby Kennedy were paragons of virtue truly comited to their wife.

Im not here to defend Newt but to say these are "ÓNLYthe Characteristics of a GOOD REPUBLICAN" and you plan to vote only that virtuous party of Donkeys…you world view is pretty off kilter.

So Newt went through the trouble of actually divorcing wives, rather than just keeping a cadre of mistrisses…..oh my god!!! 2012 really is the end of the world like the mayan calendar predicted.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

Had to throw in a History lesson to get things back on track

"The day the Democrats took over was not January 22nd 2009, it was actually January 3rd 2007, the day the Democrats took over the House of Representatives and the Senate, at the very start of the 110th Congress.

The Democratic Party controlled a majority in both chambers for the first time since the end of the 103rd Congress in 1995.

For those who are listening to the liberals propagating the fallacy that everything is "Bush's Fault", think about this…
January 3rd, 2007, the day the Democrats took over the Senate and the Congress:
The DOW Jones closed at 12,621.77
The GDP for the previous quarter was 3.5%
The Unemployment rate was 4.6%
George Bush's Economic policies SET A RECORD of 52 STRAIGHT MONTHS of JOB CREATION!
Remember that day..January 3rd, 2007 was the day that Barney Frank took over the House Financial Services Committee and Chris Dodd took over the Senate Banking Committee.
The economic meltdown that happened 15 months later was in what part of the economy?
BANKING AND FINANCIAL SERVICES!
THANK YOU DEMOCRATS (especially Barney ) for taking us from 13,000 DOW, 3.5 GDP and 4.6% Unemployment…to this CRISIS by (among MANY other things) dumping 5-6 TRILLION Dollars of toxic loans on the economy from YOUR Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac FIASCOES!
(BTW: Bush asked Congress 17 TIMES to stop Fannie & Freddie -starting in 2001 because it was financially risky for the US economy). 
Barney blocked it and called it a "Chicken Little Philosophy" (and the sky did fall!)
And who took the THIRD highest pay-off from Fannie Mae AND Freddie Mac? OBAMA
And who fought against reform of Fannie and Freddie?
OBAMA and the Democrat Congress, especially BARNEY!!!! 
So when someone tries to blame Bush…
REMEMBER JANUARY 3rd, 2007…. THE DAY THE DEMOCRATS TOOK OVER!" 
Bush may have been in the car but the Democrats were in charge of the gas pedal and steering wheel they were driving the economy into the ditch. 
Budgets do not come from the White House. They come from Congress and the party that controlled Congress since January 2007 is the Democratic Party.
Furthermore, the Democrats controlled the budget process for 2008 & 2009 as well as 2010 & 2011.

In that first year, they had to contend with George Bush, which caused them to compromise on spending, when Bush somewhat belatedly got tough on spending increases.

For 2009 though, Nancy Pelosi & Harry Reid bypassed George Bush entirely, passing continuing resolutions to keep government running until Barack Obama could take office. At that time, they passed a massive omnibus spending bill to complete the 2009 budget.

And where was Barack Obama during this time? He was a member of that very Congress that passed all of these massive spending bills, and he signed the omnibus bill as President to complete 2009. Let's remember what the deficits looked like during that period: 
If the Democrats inherited any deficit, it was the 2007 deficit, the last of the Republican budgets. That deficit was the lowest in five years, and the fourth straight decline in deficit spending. After that, Democrats in Congress took control of spending, and that includes Barack Obama, who voted for the budgets."

If Obama inherited anything, he inherited it from himself.
In a nutshell, what Obama is saying is "I inherited a deficit that I voted for, and then I voted to expand that deficit four-fold since January 20th."


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

When Republican Joe Scarborough calls Leroy Gingrinch a bad person YOU need to listen:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32545640

Visit msnbc.com for breaking news, world news, and news about the economy


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Al…that wasn't mace..I had him load up with some nice furniture wax…

JimC…. From Rushs' mouth to your "brain"...What a complete load of Fox news, tainted facts and bulls**t

I love all these arm chair Republitard Quarterbacks…think they could od a better job with the mess that was inherited from the dumbest president in history..

Maybe I should just put everyone on ignore that has a contrary opinion to mine…no, that would be childish..


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Dirt…Well if you look at the Republitard candidate pool, a stick looks pretty good to me…

We could sit here and volley back and forth all nite trading sleazy political stories about each party…All that will get us is a list of how ALL politicians are sleazy…but yet the finger pointing continues..I think we all need a trip to Ni****head, to relax a little and get back to our senses..


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

LOL..I was gonna post that Mike..but I figured it would get flagged immediately..funny for now though!


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## jordanusmc (Oct 17, 2011)

Maybe I am just to young but has it occurred to any of yall that maybe it is just somewhere in the middle? I mean as i read through some of these post calling the Republicans hijackers implying they are the real terrorist. At the same time does Obama really deserve to be dead or be threatened in any way no I don't know many people that do deserve to be threatened. I will admit it I listen to Rush a little but I think what most people miss is he is in it for the money. He said just a few weeks ago that he would never run for office because he makes to much money being a radio guy. I think that if any of those guy Chris Matthews, Hanity, Rush, Brian Williams. if any of them had all the answers and LOVED America so much wouldn't they step up and fix America. There is no doubt that they love America, but as they are on there shows every other day saying that the America as we know it is being ruined that America for are grand kids isnt going to be here. Then why dont they fix it, then why dont they stop being so selfish and protect all of us form the America that is being destroyed, why don't they step up and save us all? Simple they are in it for the money and they have us all fooled.

People are believing everything these guys say and taking it as Gospel and have decided that Obama is the worst. Is he perfect no was Reagan, Clinton, JFK no none of them are. That is just part of the system we have. Congress they are messed up Senate they are messed up they are all. 2010 Americans said they hated congress and wanted them out well why didn't it happen? Everyone says they hate career politicians then why do they continue to vote them back in for 5 6 7 8 terms. i dono just my tidbit have a good one


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## woodnewbee (Nov 23, 2009)

cr1, careful there I was asked after having surgery and given meds for nausea who the president was and I looked at the nurse and asked, "do we have one?" all hell broke lose the room filled with nurses and doctors were called in all to discover I was overdosed on meds. lol


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## jordanusmc (Oct 17, 2011)

Who is threatening anyone? Mike made comment about Lance making a comment about how he fears Obama would be killed if he was reelected. Others have posted pics of Palin with scopes over her face. I know I know it is to prove a point if cross hairs are not a sign of hostility when Palin uses it the why cant we use it against her. Maybe I am reading between the lines to much here. I am not trying to say anyone on here is the next Oswald(please not second shooter theory). I understand this is America and we vote out the bums. I am just curious why if there is such hate for congress why ddidn't they get voted out n 2010?


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

You wanna know whos threatening who?



















Go to a Tea Party Rally….


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## jordanusmc (Oct 17, 2011)

That is kind of my point Brad it is back and forth. Does that sign say we are gonna kill someone no not at all. Does the cross hairs over Palin say someone is gonna kill her no not at all.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)




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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

*LANCE: look at the post jordan you can clearly see that Mike is a loon his posts are vulgar and he is a trouble maker.*

Lance, 
You don't think YOUR posting of Obama painting the White House BLACK isn't vulgar or racist?
How about your comments in the SAME post that you call me vulgar (your next earlier post):
The weak Bastard in the White house…
…real estate market that is still floundering thanks to big ears.

Lance, I am NOT making an accusation but *merely an observation* or YOUR recent posts. By dictionary definition, what you are saying/posting is bigoted and full of racism. *If you want this discussion to be civil, then by all means show us civility so that we may copy your "civil manners".*

*Relevant Definitions:*

*bigot* (ˈbɪɡət) - noun

a person who is intolerant of any ideas other than his or her own, esp on religion, politics, or race

EXAMPLE SENTENCE: The sincerity of either man can only be doubted by the bigot and the fool.

*racism or racialism* (ˈreɪsɪzəm, ˈreɪʃəˌlɪzəm) - noun

abusive or aggressive behavior towards members of another race on the basis of such a belief

Racism and Politics
by John Alan

The practice of racism, both openly violent and covered over in politics, has existed in this nation since it was founded. Martin Luther King Jr. once said: "The Black revolution is much more than struggle for the rights of ***********************************. It is forcing America to face all its inter-related flaws: racism, poverty, militarism and materialism."

Recently it was reported that after 40 years the authorities in Philadelphia, Miss., finally arrested a suspect who was deeply involved in the 1965 murder of three voter-registration workers from the Congress of Racial Equality.

*CIVIL RIGHTS MURDERS*
The suspect is Edgar Ray Killen, a 79-year-old preacher who, investigators say, organized and led two carloads of Klansmen on the night of the killings, was arrested at his home in Philadelphia, Miss., and charged with the murder of Michael Schwerner, Andrew Goodman and James Chaney.

Forty years ago this act of Klan terrorism in a small Mississippi town did immediately attract the attention of many conservative politicians across this nation, who were against the so-called "racial liberalism" of President Lyndon Johnson's administration. "Racial liberalism" meant the Civil Rights Act of 1964-which ended racial segregation in public facilities and racial discrimination in the workplace-and the Voting Rights Act, which put the federal government behind the Afro-American right to vote. Of course, the "racial liberalism" of the Johnson administration was its response to the Civil Rights Movement.

During that time Ronald Reagan was a notable opponent of Lyndon B. Johnson's "racial liberalism." He was opposed to the concept of integration and was working hard to gain enough political power to prevent the enactment of any law that would end racial segregation in America. Fifteen years later, when Reagan ran for president in 1980, he opened his presidential campaign against Jimmy Carter at a fairground near Philadelphia, Miss., and told a cheering crowd of 10,000 white people that he believed in "states' rights." The Ku Klux Klansmen who murdered Michael Schwerner, James Chaney and Andrew Goodman in Neshoba county also said they were "states' righters."

The reason Reagan started his 1980 campaign in the South was to establish a Southern strategy to get white Southerners to vote for a Republican candidate by making race a major issue of the election. Reagan won the election and once he was in the Oval Office reduced all funds for desegregation and encouraged court action to end desegregation programs. To gut civil rights enforcement he appointed Clarence Thomas, the Black conservative, to head the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC).

*PLAYING THE RACE CARD*
Ronald Reagan isn't the only candidate for president to have played a race card to get white votes. George H. W. Bush, the father of the current president, played it blatantly when he ran for president in 1988. He used the crime of Willie Horton, an African-American convict-who raped a white woman while on furlough-to defeat his opponent, Michael Dukakis, who was the governor of Massachusetts at the time of Horton's furlough. He held Michael Dukakis responsible for Willie Horton's crime and generated fear of the Black "criminal" to propel himself into the presidency.

Bush, like other presidents before him, found Black faces to represent his racist agenda. He appointed Clarence Thomas to the Supreme Court, despite strong allegations by EEOC employee Anita Hill of sexual harassment in the workplace. Clarence Thomas' views are conservative in the sense that he believes you have to forget about race once you arrive at high positions in the government. He believes that the Constitution should be interpreted exactly in the spirit in which the founders wrote it, regardless of the fact that many of the founders were slave owners.

Current President Bush might appoint Clarence Thomas Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. The concerns over that stem not only from the conservative views espoused by Thomas, but also by his grudge against those who challenged his nomination in 1991.

According to THE WASHINGTON POST (Dec. 6-12, 2004), "Thomas retains a special animus for certain civil rights activists and liberal interest groups such as People for the American Way, the Leadership Conference on Civil Rights, the Alliance for Justice. He blames them, in large part, for the damage done to his reputation. 'These people are mad because I'm in Thurgood Marshall's seat,' he told one visitor…. Thomas keeps a list in his head of who was for and against him during his confirmation hearings. He is still bitter." To have such a man as chief justice does not bode well for the civil rights of any Americans.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Harry Truman 
In 1924, Harry S. Truman was a judge in Jackson County, Missouri, which includes Kansas City. Truman was up for reelection, and his friends Edgar Hinde and Spencer Salisbury advised him to join the Klan. The Klan was politically powerful in Jackson County, and two of Truman's opponents in the Democratic primary had Klan support. Truman refused at first, but paid the Klan's $10 membership fee, and a meeting with a Klan officer was arranged.[2]

Robert Byrd 
Senator Robert Byrd was a Kleagle, a Klan recruiter, in his 20s and 30s.West Virginia's Democratic United States Senator Robert C. Byrd was a recruiter for the Klan while in his 20s and 30s, rising to the title of Kleagle and Exalted Cyclops of his local chapter. After leaving the group, Byrd spoke in favor of the Klan during his early political career. Though he claimed to have left the organization in 1943, Byrd wrote a letter in 1946 to the group's Imperial Wizard stating "The Klan is needed today as never before, and I am anxious to see its rebirth here in West Virginia." Byrd defended the Klan in his 1958 U.S. Senate campaign when he was 41 years old.[10]

But out in LEFTYLAND, it is Reagan that damn hollywood actor, that is the real racist…..yeah OK.

How bout this beauty of a letter about acceptance and living together from Truman???
In 1911, the year he turned 27, Truman wrote to his future wife, Bess: "I think one man is just as good as another so long as he's honest and decent and not a ****************************** or a Chinaman. Uncle Will says that the Lord made a white man from dust, a ****************************** from mud, then He threw up what was left and it came down a Chinaman."

"(Uncle Will) does hate Chinese and Japs," Truman continued. "So do I. It is race prejudice, I guess. But I am strongly of the opinion *********************************** ought to be in Africa, yellow men in Asia and white men in Europe and America."


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Geez Dirt, can you go back any further? Maybe you should start quoting some facts about Whigs and Torrie's..
And I get slammed for talking about GW Bushs' term…that's yesterday compared to the stuff your digging up. Besides, as I pointed out earlier the farther you go back in time the more racism was tolerated and was a fact of life..if you want to wind it back all the way, how many signers of the Declaration of Independence were slave owners?

Come to think of it, the fact that the Tea Party likens themselves to the founding fathers, running around wearing revolutionary garb and screaming about the constitution is so ridiculously ironic, seeing how they are a bunch of racists I'm sure they support bringing back slavery…

And that cartoon of Obama painting the white house black…totally racist, and by the looks of the quality of it the artist was about 10 years old..or the mental equivalent thereof….


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

As for the cartoons I didn't draw them I am simply sharing them. And no Mikey I am not a bigot or a racist I hate everyone equally.

Just because I say illegals must be deported you think i am talking about Mexicans. I am not, I am speaking about every alien that came here and didn't leave when their visa ran out. Like the real hijackers the ones that actually flew the planes into our buildings and the ones that crashed in the field. They all need to go home and stay there we don't need them.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)




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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

If you think a cartoon of Obama painting the white house black isn't racist, than you are dumber than I even think you are, and you dont even know the meaning of the word racist..

Maybe we should all go back to where we came from Lance, and give this country back to the original owners..native Americans


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Lance, if you would ACTUALLY READ my post, then you would know that I posed the question to Dirt and NOT to YOU. That ship has sailed…

*LANCE: Just because I say illegals must be deported you think i am talking about Mexicans.*
I never said anything like that.

I just LOVE THIS example of the use of the word *Bigot*. It comes directly from dictionary.com

EXAMPLE SENTENCES
noun
*Stop being a political bigot and putting words in our mouths.*


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Based on his parents/grandparents I thought Obama is more white than black?


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

!



!


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

*Oldies, but Goodies* * ENJOY*




Personalize funny videos and birthday eCards at JibJab!


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

*Silly me… and I thought we were talking about THIS ELECTION CYCLE*.

Really mike so your bloviating about Reagan Bush the first, Clarence Thomas and the capture of Edgar Ray Allen are all current events for the present candidates then?? I thought Reagan was dead, and couldn't run again anyway because of term limits if he weren't.
Thomas was confirmed how long ago.
Pick a thread - - if you want to talk 2012 racists in the election - - Obama is already the biggest Racist in any office.

Haven't seen David Duke anounce his candidacy. The lefty blogosphere talks about him testing the waters in July, but I haven't seen him in the debates but that KKK wacko is a centrist compared to Barrack.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Obama versus Farming Families -
No sending Junior to slop the hogs or feed the animals - that is unmerciful child labor violations..

Under the proposal, children under age 16 would no longer would be allowed to drive most tractors or farm equipment or handle mature livestock such as uncastrated bulls, sows with suckling pigs or cows with a newborn calf present that still has an umbilical cord. Workers under 16 also would kept from working in grain silos, feed lots or livestock auctions, handling pesticides or working on a* ladder, tower, roof, scaffold or machine more than 6 feet above the ground.*

(So no more having to help paint the house either or hang christmas lights..,..it is for the poor little children)

Young workers also would be prohibited from removing stumps, other than by manual means, or from working in any form of animal husbandry that could cause pain, and hence a violent reaction, from livestock, including dehorning, vaccinating or castrating animals.So you can't help dad give shots, the sheep might kick..

Thanks Barry the kids are safe now!
Remember that if your kids get on a roof or ladder taller than 6 feet you'll have the FEDERAL marshalls out to visit.

Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11347/1196438-28-0.stm?cmpid=newspanel3#ixzz1giySZLzh


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

*Here's hoping the toxic contamination will slow down if not abate entirely*
Only if you stop posting…


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

*Republicans: The Single Greatest Threat to America*

The single greatest threat to the United States is not joblessness, foreclosures, another recession or skyrocketing debt or health care costs. Nor is it terrorism, China or declining influence abroad. No, the single greatest threat to our country is today's Republican Party.

That's because the GOP is relentlessly pursuing a policy of the American public be damned, so that next year Republicans can regain the national political dominance they held from 2001 to 2006. Their sole, selfish aim is to complete the transformation of the U.S. to a government of, by and for the rich and the far-right.

Veteran reporter Robert Parry, a retired correspondent for the Associated Press and Newsweek, accurately summed up that policy this way:

* Modern Republicans have a simple approach to politics when they are not in the White House: Make America as ungovernable as possible by using any means available… Control as much as possible what the population gets to see and hear; create chaos for your opponent's government, economically and politically; blame it for the mess; and establish in the minds of the voters that their only way out is to submit, that the pain will stop once your side is back in power…

Republicans and the Right… are well positioned to roll the U.S. economy off the cliff and blame the catastrophe on Obama. Indeed, that may be their best hope for winning Election 2012. *

George W. Bush's presidency, with Congressional Republicans in lockstep behind him, made an excellent start on the destructive transformation of this country: two unpaid-for wars (one based on lies); failure to prevent the worst terrorist attack on the homeland or punish its instigators; waste of tens of thousands of U.S. and foreign lives, and worldwide diplomatic failure.

At home, approval of torture, warrantless wiretapping and ineptness and indifference in the face of Hurricane Katrina created a permanent stain. Economically, Republican tax cuts created few jobs and increased the national debt by 75 percent. What the Washington Post dubbed "executive grandeur" made income inequality the worst since the 1930s Depression. Finally, the GOP's failed stewardship of the economy resulted in a crisis that Fed Chairman Ben Bernanke testified was even worse than the Depression.

*When national revulsion against Republican misrule drove Democrats into power in 2008, the GOP resorted to today's strategy. It became evident even before the new Democratic president took office when the Republican Party's de facto leader, Rush Limbaugh, declared: "I hope Obama fails." And since the inauguration, Republicans have done everything in their power to assure that failure, although it's meant misery for millions of Americans.*

"I wish we had been able to obstruct more," says Senate Republican leader Mitch McConnell who succeeded brilliantly in keeping his members in line in opposing every important measure that's good for this country including presidential initiatives for health care, financial regulation, economic stimulus and a dozen executive appointments and even more judicial ones needed to keep government functioning.

Given the frightening record of business and financial deception and fraud that led to the economic crisis, who in their right mind could possibly oppose increased regulation of business and enhanced protection for consumers? The answer: almost all Republicans. Elizabeth Warren is too committed to consumer protection to win the votes of Senate Republicans acting for their paymasters at the chambers of commerce.

President Obama's new law extending health insurance to 30 million more people is too good for working Americans. Beaten in their attempt to vote it down, Republicans are now suing to kill it. Remember the GOP plan? It proposed health insurance for one-tenth as many people. Is it any wonder that people in all other industrial countries, where health care is a right, laugh at us.

American business hates government-except when it needs government help. Which is just about all the time. And it's just fine with Republicans whenever business goes to the government for help. In fact, GOPers are almost always corporate-friendly, as opposed to people-friendly. And they have a right-wing Supreme Court majority that helps them buy legislation by equating money with speech and corporations with human beings.

But heaven forbid the average citizen should try to get a government benefit, or a job or more unemployment insurance or aid in taking back a home seized (often illegally) by the bank, or getting health care for a gravely ill child with a pre-existing condition. Republicans are happy to vote overwhelmingly against him, ignoring the Constitutional command that government "promote the general welfare."

Ronald Reagan, a president with rich friends and poor instincts, did this country an unforgiveable disservice by encouraging Americans to hate and distrust their government. Remember when he declared: "Government is not a solution to our problem, government is the problem," and joked that: "The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help." Contrast that with Reagan's almost religious reverence for "the magic of the marketplace."

But my own life experience, like that of millions of Americans, tells me that in important ways the government is more reliable than the marketplace. I spent a good part of my career working for one of the largest, most triumphant examples of American capitalism: General Electric. When I retired late in 1997, GE shares were selling for $68.56; when GE CEO Jack Welch, the greatest corporate genius of them all, quit 11 months later, those shares had dropped to $39.66. In 2009, under his successor genius, they fell as low as $6.66. And they closed the other day at $18.49-only about a quarter of what they were when I retired. Needless to say, those shares formed a large part of my now badly-depleted retirement assets. Fortunately for me, GE was one of a declining number of companies that still provided an additional defined benefit pension plan for employes like me-something the company is now proposing to drop for new union hires.

In contrast to my GE stock disaster, Social Security hasn't missed a monthly payment to me for more than 13 years, or to my wife in nine (imagine the value of our Social Security stock portfolios if Republicans had succeeded in their privatization scheme). Medicare enabled me to have spinal surgery, a hip replacement, cataract operations in both eyes and radiation that cured my prostate cancer; and my wife to have a hip and knee replaced, without breaking us financially.

Maybe that's why I call Reagan a liar and a fool for his denunciations of those benefits from our government to me and millions of others. And you should, too. But Republicans regard him almost as a saint. And those same Republicans just voted almost unanimously in Congress to kill Medicare and replace it with Rep. Ryan's pathetic plan to replace single payer with cut-rate vouchers for money-hungry private insurers. And they're now holding a critically important increase in the debt ceiling hostage to measures that would weaken the recovery.

*The Republican Bush administration destroyed our standing abroad and our economy at home, and killed and maimed thousands of our young men and women for no good reason. Since 2009, Democrats have done their best to clean up the Republican mess-something that unfortunately takes time. Republicans have fought those national cleanup efforts-and the vast majority of the American people-every day. And they say they're proud of their obstruction. As for solutions, they offer none, except for tax cuts like those that created record-low jobs under Bush, and spending cuts that would cripple the government.*

These policies failed before and would inevitably fail again, and might well drive us into a real Depression. That's why the Republican Party is the single greatest threat to the United States of America. It cannot be allowed to win in 2012.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

This thread is making me more Republican than ever.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

I'm sold Bertha.
I'm to the right of Attila.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

last warning mike stay on topic or ill ban you from this thread. your constant name calling and accusations are out of bounds at least have the dignity that brad nailer does to try to verbalize his points why i don't agree with him at least he refrains from name calling and playing the race card we already know that you like to play the victim but the name calling and repeating questions over and over that are unworthy of a response is getting old so stop now or i will block you


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Go into the light Al…


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)




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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

That the best ya got Brad?


> ?


Cartoons!!!!!!

Your down to Amateurish Liberalism.
I can cut and paste also. I'm above it.


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Don't get mad little Jimmy…I'm not the only one that hates your boyfriend with a white hot passion

It's called political satire, genius…and I think they make great statements..the problem you have with them is they stab your lover Rush, and you probubly dont get the satire..its over your head like an over priced jet plane….I posted a very compelling article a few posts ago about how the Republicans are ruining this country due to their blind hatred of Obama and their selfishness and political partisanship…did your mommy let you read it?

The difference between me and you when it comes to cut and paste is, you do it with those blunt, child safety scissors…

Now I'm sure there's a Klan rally..oh, sorry I mean a Tea Party rally somewhere that your late to, so go iron your pointed hood and run along..they might light the cross without you if you don't hurry..


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Lol Brad. I'll avoid the light for a while Here in WV, Byrd could do no wrong. Literally EVERTHING'S named after him here. I could probably get into some real trouble talking bad about him.


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## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

Personal Attacks STILL?


> ? REALLY


debate politics if you must but do refrain from personal attacks, hate comments etc. Not very LumberJock-ish and NOT OKAY.


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

The difference between your and you're? Wow, that's all you got? Hahaha…

Not everyone that calls me out is a racist..I just happen to think your politics smack of the Tea Party, and they certainly are racists..plus you love Rush Limberger..and there isn't a bigger racist on the planet ( remember that little diddy.."Barack The Magic *************************"..silly me..I'm sure it's in your Ipod)....so at the risk of using an inappropriate pun..I call a spade a spade..


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

MsDebbie,
Thanks for removing the White House "paint job" image.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

There you go again. Did you skip or flunk English/Penmanship? (Probably skipped to be at a Bill Ayers class)

"There" not "Their" as in "...and *there* isn't a bigger racist…."

*My Guys and girls*
Rush
Mark Levin
Dennis Prager
Laura Ingraham
Ann Coulter
Hannity
O'Reilly

God bless the Tea Party.


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Fixed it myself bagger, before you had a chance to nit pick my spelling…What a crew of hero's you got there…I called you like a hand of blackjack..tea bagger all the way!

The Tea Party is the modern Nazi regime..Only the Nazis leader was way smarter than Sarah Palin..haha


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

congrats Jim C on the 1000 th post in this thread

from now on any name calling will not be tolerated. it is not productive and when people say more than hey stupid or your to dumb to get it it causes hatred and each person will get one warning after that ill block you. this is for both sides. and i have already warned mike as he has called me and others too many names to be tolerated any more. now we can either get along or you can start your own thread and see how the bashing goes. I for one am tired of the non productive name calling and I wont tolerate it any more. you guys a men and women who care about this country so act like your better than congress and get along.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

Thanks Dude
What did I win?
A week in Berkely Kalifornia at Nancy Pelosi's with Brad and Mikey ?

I'll pass


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

*Lance SAID: "from now on any name calling will not be tolerated…"*

Lance, by ALL means I support this initiative , just as I stated back in…
*Post #975:
HorizontalMike SAID: "...If you want this discussion to be civil, then by all means show us civility so that we may copy your "civil manners"…."*

I stand by to follow YOUR lead.


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Jim you won a week at N**rhead with your buddy, Mittens…


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

actually jim as Al is doing in the Hand-planes of your dreams forum I will have a plaque made for you once its ready ill pm you for shipping info.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Maybe we could do an "Al" and get a thread going on "Presidents of your Dreams" ? Should be interesting.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Looks like AL now has the 1,000th post. And if MsDebbie can find another post to delete then SHE can have the 1,000th post. Things are looking positive.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

You are too kind Dude.

I am honored.


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

I could have sworn I heard "Pomp and Circumstance" playing softly in the background while I read cr1's post…


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## ohtimberwolf (Dec 17, 2011)

The politicians have brought this dis-trust upon thems.

Stole all our SS money and now tax us on what little we get.
Forced the post office to keep billions in reserve in the federal governments hands and they use it with no expectation of ever letting go of it. Then they wonder why the PO has financial problems. THEY DO DON'T, the theiving politicians are our problem.

I am not sure what the answer is but I do know who the answer is NOT. I would vote for dog before I would vote for the president we are now stuck with. JMHO


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

ohtimberwolf:
You'll be pleased to know that there is a pack of dogs out the of all breeds that will pee up your leg,


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## ohtimberwolf (Dec 17, 2011)

You got that right Tex…but just maybe that dog didn't drink a whole lot of water and I might get by with just a slight warm feeling.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

well while she is pruning in the spirit i am giving it to Jim as it was the thousandth post when it happened it is like Reggie's Heisman he gave it back but they didn't give it to the guy in second place. it is my thread and this is how i decided to do this when i thought we would make it to 1000 and more I think its fair because i could have lots of posts deleted for personal attack etc .so you all know this is how they will be done in the future as well sorry al and who ever is the 1000 th post next week after a second round of deletions


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## S4S (Jan 22, 2011)




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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

*Fox News Includes Racist Hate Group in Republican Presidential Debate*
…nearly 20,000 questions from the American public were submitted to Fox News for last night's Republican presidential debate. Almost twenty thousand submissions, and Fox chose the *Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR)* to ask the first question regarding immigration…
*The founder, chief ideologue and long-time funder of FAIR is a racist. *Key staff members have ties to white supremacist groups, some are members, and some have spoken at hate group functions. FAIR has accepted more than $1 million from a racist foundation devoted to studies of race and IQ, and to eugenics - the pseudo-science of breeding a better human race that was utterly discredited by the Nazi euthanasia program. It spreads racist conspiracy theories. Its political ads have caused numerous politicians, Democratic and Republican, to denounce it.
But none of this stopped Fox News from including FAIR in last night's debate. Perhaps that should come as no surprise; after all, *none of the Republican presidential candidates or Fox News debate hosts uttered a peep of protest after audience members booed gay U.S. Army soldier Stephen Hill, who is serving in Iraq but is apparently unfit to serve because of who he sleeps with according to conservative homophobes*.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Here is an interesting take on how republicans work the party for the vote. This video is a reference to Michael Steele, then pres of the GOP, but many analogies could be drawn to about how the GOP works the fear factor since Obama has been in office and is running for re-election in 2012:


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

forcing soldiers to bunk with gay men is not acceptable either there is no easy answer to homosexuals in the military open gays will be a distraction to soldiers and marines in real combat this has no easy cure and also I personally must take the stand of my church and say homosexuality is an abomination against god. and Mike AREN'T YOU A CATHOLIC YOUR CHURCH FEELS THE SAME WAY AS MY CHURCH. You don't have the choice to pick and choose doctrine of the church

The other risks are huge allowing Gays in the military especially in combat units these guys have to trust each other 110 percent and if you don't someone will die. I could not have accepted a gay man in my combat unit it was out of the question in the 70s while there were always those in the closet they were not out putting their attraction toward you in a unit environment and they will always be unwanted my the straight majority so tell me how can you do it mike we don't let women share the head with men because of sexual attraction how are you going to force men to be leered at by men who are sexual deviants . you tell me your pro gay in the military Mike yet you say your a catholic what a conflict you must have going on over your sole . I don't envy you for this Mike it has to be a conflict between your spiritual side. I stand with my bishop and I say there is no room for gays in the military or in heaven


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

- Justin Owings_
http://youarenotsosmart.com/2010/06/23/confirmation-bias/
Over time, by never seeking the antithetical, through accumulating subscriptions to magazines, stacks of books and hours of television, you can become so confident in your world-view no one could dissuade you.

Remember, there's always someone out there willing to sell eyeballs to advertisers by offering a guaranteed audience of people looking for validation. Ask yourself if you are in that audience.

In science, you move closer to the truth by seeking evidence to the contrary. Perhaps the same method should inform your opinions as well.

Journalists looking to tell a certain story must "(Should)" avoid the tendency to ignore evidence to the contrary; scientists looking to prove a hypothesis must avoid designing experiments with little wiggle room for alternate outcomes.

Without confirmation bias, conspiracy theories would fall apart. Did we really put a man on the moon? If you are *looking for proof we didn't*, you can find it out there, kind of the same way you can find clips on the net of blacks who will get on TV and say everyone white with a different political view is a racist.. without ever discussing an issue.

EDIT
Just googled " Obama is a socialist"

Got 34,800,000 results (0.21 seconds) 
Guess it must be true - ??


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

*DIRT SAID: Mikes meaning of his own life…*
Absolutely NOTHING about the Topic and a personal attack.

*LANCE SAID: from now on any name calling will not be tolerated. it is not productive and when people say more than hey stupid or your to dumb to get it it causes hatred and each person will get one warning after that ill block you. *

OK Lance, 
Dirt is OFF TOPIC.
Dirt is essentially calling me names in a LONG diatribe
So as you said that you would in POST #1004, BLOCK HIM
BTW, it was POST #1004 at the time of this writing, but with all the deleting of posts it may change or not even be posted any more.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

*LANCE SAID: forcing soldiers to bunk with gay men is not acceptable either there is no easy answer to homosexuals in the military open gays will be a distraction to soldiers and marines in real combat this has no easy cure and also I personally must take the stand of my church and say homosexuality is an abomination against god. and Mike AREN'T YOU A CATHOLIC YOUR CHURCH FEELS THE SAME WAY AS MY CHURCH. You don't have the choice to pick and choose doctrine of the church*

Lance,
No, I am not a Catholic. And by your OWN wishes, talking about someone else's religious beliefs is OFF-TOPIC and has nothing to do with who will be the next President. That would be an interesting topic for a future thread though.

Concerning your post regarding gays in the military, consider this:

Gays in Foreign Militaries 2010

*Executive Summary*
1. *Twenty-five nations now allow gays and lesbians to serve openly in the military.*

2. In many of those countries, debate before the policy changes was highly pitched
and many people both inside and outside the military predicted major disruptions.
In Britain and Canada, roughly two thirds of military respondents in polls said
they would refuse to serve with open gays, but when inclusive policies were
implemented, no more than three people in each country actually resigned.

3. *Research has uniformly shown that transitions to policies of equal treatment
without regard to sexual orientation have been highly successful and have had no
negative impact on morale, recruitment, retention, readiness or overall combat
effectiveness.* No consulted expert anywhere in the world concluded that lifting
the ban on openly gay service caused an overall decline in the military.

4. *The updated research conducted for this study confirm that early assessments by
both military and independent analysts hold across time: none of the successes
and gains of transitions to full inclusion were reversed* by any of the nations
studied, or yielded delayed problems over the years in which these militaries
allowed openly gay service.

5. *Evidence suggests that lifting bans on openly gay service contributed to
improving the command climate* in foreign militaries, including increased focus
on behavior and mission rather than identity and difference, greater respect for
rules and policies that reflect the modern military, a decrease in harassment,
retention of critical personnel, and enhanced respect for privacy.

6. *All the countries studied completed their implementations of repeal either
immediately or within four months of the government's decision to end
discrimination.* These experiences confirm research findings which show that a
quick, simple implementation process is instrumental in ensuring success. Swift,
decisive implementation signals the support of top leadership and confidence that
the process will go smoothly, while a "phased-in" implementation can create
anxiety, confusion, and obstructionism.

7. *Two main factors contributed to the success of transitions to openly gay service:
clear signals of leadership support and a focus on a uniform code of behavior
without regard to sexual orientation.* Also key are simple training guidelines that
communicate the support of leadership, that explain the uniform standards for
conduct, and that avoid "sensitivity" training, which can backfire by causing
resentment in the ranks.

8.* None of the countries studied installed separate facilities for gay troops, nor did
they retain rules treating gays differently from heterosexuals.* Each country has
taken its own approach to resolving questions of benefits, housing, partner
recognition, and re-instatement. Generally, the military honors the status afforded
to gay or lesbian couples by that country, and the military rarely gets out in front
of the government or other institutions in the benefits offered.

9. *Lifting bans on openly gay service in foreign countries did not result in a mass
coming out."* Yet gay and lesbian troops serve in all levels of the armed forces of
Britain, Canada, Australia, South Africa, and Israel, in both combat and noncombat
positions, at both the enlisted level and as high commanders.

10. *There were no instances of increased harassment of or by gay people as a result of
lifting bans in any of the countries studied.*

11. Informal discrimination in treatment and promotions have not been wiped out, but
evidence suggests that formal policies of equal treatment for people equally
situated helps reduce discrimination and resentment, and helps keep the focus on
behavior necessary to complete the mission rather than on group traits that can
distract from the mission.

12. *The U.S. military has a long tradition of considering the experiences of other
militaries to be relevant to its own lessons learned.* While there is no doubt that
the U.S. military is different from other militaries, such distinctions have not
prevented the U.S. military from comparing itself to and learning from foreign
armed forces. Using resources like the Foreign Military Studies Office, the U.S.
military itself has commissioned research on matters of personnel, health policy,
housing, weapons innovation, technology, counterterrorism, and the question of
gay service.


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

cr1 said:
*I can't recall once seeing these persons posting anything of interest of value. It is always ranting nonsense.*

And everything you post is iron clad facts? Says who? The republican tainted publications you read? You really need to get over yourself…your not as great as you think you are..Your posts look like Republitard rantings from where I'm standing..


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Ahh, the face of the G.O.P.

Rush Limbaugh Picks On Poor Kids, Says They Should Starve At School
December 17, 2011
By Stephen D. Foster Jr.

The School Meal Program feeds millions of kids every year. I should know. I was one of them. So were my two siblings. I was raised by a single mother who worked damn hard taking care of senior citizens for little pay. So little in fact, that we qualified for free or reduced breakfasts and lunches at school. I would go to school every morning, eat a good breakfast, and begin learning on a full stomach instead of an empty one. As a result, I was able to focus on my education without feeling hunger. Statistics show that kids who are hungry don't learn as well. They have a hard time concentrating because their stomachs are screaming for food. I was lucky. I got to eat two meals a day at school, and avoided becoming just another statistic.

But according to Rush Limbaugh, I should have starved my way through school. On his radio show, Limbaugh whined about poor students being on the School Meal Program, saying that feeding them instead of letting them starve turns them into "wanton waifs and serfs dependent on the state." That's funny, I'm not dependent on the state. I'm not on welfare nor do I ask for state assistance. I graduated high school, went on to graduate college, and now I'm a writer and certified teacher. Because of the school meals that kept me focused on learning, I was able to succeed and find work I enjoy. But that's not the way Rush Limbaugh sees it:

"If you feed them, if you feed the children, three square meals a day during the school year, how can you expect them to feed themselves in the summer?"

Apparently Rush Limbaugh has never heard of summer school. I reside in Missouri, just like Rush, and even I know that many schools offer summer school programs, and that includes school meals. I also know that kids don't feed themselves during the summer. Their parents feed them. Sometimes you have to live with a bowl of cereal and peanut butter and jelly sandwiches throughout the summer but it beats starving. When your parents can't afford anything else, you take what you can get. But once the school year starts, you can finally get some variety, including fruits and vegetables crucial for development. Like many parents, my mom didn't have time to make breakfast on most mornings. We had to get up early so she could drive us in and go to work so she could pay the bills and keep us clothed. Without school breakfast, we would have started off each day on an empty stomach. Leaving so early also meant not having time to make a lunch to take to school. Without school lunch, we would not have eaten anything at all throughout the day.

In this time of economic downturn, poverty stricken families are thankful for the School Meal Program. Without it, kids would starve during a time when it is important to focus on education. Of course Rush Limbaugh wouldn't know anything about starving. He grew up in a well off family. His grandfather was a judge, a prosecutor, and a member of the House of Representatives. His father was also an attorney. So Rush was able to stuff his face full of food 365 days a year throughout his childhood and yet he wasted his education by dropping out of college. I didn't have the luxury he had, yet because of school meals, I got an education and did NOT waste it.

Poor kids and their families get a bad reputation from people like Rush and others who don't know what it's like to grow up in poverty. Perhaps if Rush got off his fat ass and actually met some poor folks, he'd understand that getting state assistance isn't a free ride. It's a chance to survive and succeed in life without having to worry about starving, or not having a roof over your head, or not having proper clothing and medical care. Rush Limbaugh is a prick and a bully. He is picking on kids who probably don't even understand that they eat school meals because their parents can't afford to pay for food because the economy is so bad. Many parents have lost their jobs because of economic policies supported by Limbaugh and his ilk. I'm not ashamed of having to eat school meals. I'm thankful that some politicians cared enough about my well being and education to create and institute the program in the first place. It saved me from hunger and gave me an opportunity that I may not have had otherwise. An opportunity to teach Rush Limbaugh that poor kids are human beings, and he is not.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

I like to feed people. That's my charity of choice, but it's clearly a choice. I don't feel like I OWE anyone a meal, child or otherwise. In fact, I feel like I OWE people very little. I mean, I have creditors which I "owe" by agreement, but you know what I mean.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Yeah Al, you are just one of the seven dwarfs singing "I owe, I owe, so it's off to work I go"


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

Post # 1026

Spewing pure and unadulterated Socialism.

"Give a man a fish, he will eat for a day…....Teach a man to fish, he will eat for life"

No one is resourceful if everything is handed to them.
If a squirrel doesn't gather nuts in the fall, it starves to death. No other squirrel helps it out. It's on it's own.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

*Jim SAID: As Mikey would type, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA*

Just WHERE have I EVER said that? That is false and a lie.

*LANCE SAID: from now on any name calling will not be tolerated. it is not productive and when people say more than hey stupid or your to dumb to get it it causes hatred and each person will get one warning after that ill block you.*

Here you go Lance, ANOTHER. Time to keep your promise. Jim is putting words in my mouth that have NOT been uttered by me, a personal attack.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

That's really picking at fly**** Mikey

How many people have you insulted implying they are racists and bigots?


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

*JIM SAID: That's really picking at fly++ Mikey How many people have you insulted implying they are racists and bigots?*

OK, Jim just how many of those actually ARE racists and bigots and how many are NOT? 
PLUS,
What does THAT have to do with you putting words in my mouth? A deflection/dodge me thinks…

*Jim SAID: As Mikey would type, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA*
Oh, you STILL need to tell me where I EVER said/typed what you quoted me as typing. Where is it JIM?


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Just wondering what you guys have got each other as a Christmas gift?


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

I thought you did, but I'm man enough to apologize if you didn't. I'm not going to go through a Bazillion posts.

Now unblock me as, besides your politics, you post some pretty good subjects.


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Jim…That's so typical of the Republican I got mine so I don't give a rats ass if you got yours mentality. It is socialism to give a hungry kid some food? Perfect…I can only hope that someday guys like you and cr1 will be down on your luck..and people will treat you with as much kindness, compassion and socialism you feel everyone deserves from you.

" History will judge society's by how they treat their weakest members" 
Go vote in another tax break for the wealthy…


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)




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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Listen to some republicans talk about why they cant support newt

http://media.mtvnservices.com/mgid:cms:item:comedycentral.com:404455 
Jon Stewart: The GOP Descent Into the Cesspool of Newt
- Watch more Videos at Vodpod.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Lol, Brad, did Newt just say he was both Reagan and Margaret? Brad, I was on 4chan earlier looking for something non-porn. I went into the Random section and there were tons of anti-Republican cartoons and such. I thought immediately of you They had some pretty good ones, too.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

Mike saying that you said something is not an attack. I looked for what you complained about Jim said and saw nothing so i assume he retracted it.

I know there is no common ground here and that you dems will ride this horse to his end but the facts are clear now the America wants a new person in the white house. if Obama has the ability to put America back to work he had better get of his ass and do something with unemployment in Fresno county topping 25 percent the dems here are even sick of him he has no plan he has no way to restore jobs.

Why we have placed such restrictions on Manufacturing that companies cant make goods at a competitive price any longer.

I am sure that you find your cartoons funny brad I find them offensive and so i have posted as nasty of a cartoon in return then you cry foul. you cant have it both ways ether every cartoon is fair game or none of them are you guys decide this. I am not inclined to ban the cut and paste in my mind its humor but remember if you guys choose to allow it it is all fair game .


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Yup Al..he did compare himself to a hybrid of Reagan/Thatcher, and I loved the part where he says nobody can understand him..they have to adjust their ability to comprehend him he's such an enigma….that's what made the ego joke John Stewart told right after it so funny! The only cartoon I really disproved of was the one of Obama painting the white house black..aside from that I don't mind..post away. I have found some pretty funny anti Obama ones in my travels to get these..


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Uh… wow Brad… wow… uh I guess ol' N. Leroy Gingrinch is not liked by his own party.

N. Leroy Gingrinch's closet if full of skeletons. Many are vulgar/pornographic (regarding his adultery) so I am only posting the link and NOT quoting this time, but the headings are below. You will have to follow the link here for details and to see just how bad this N. Leroy Gingrinch really is. I don't see how his own mother could vote for him…

*Adultery:*
Callista Bisek. Anne Manning. The unnamed "young volunteer". Are we missing anyone?

*Draft dodger*

*Dead-Beat Dad*

*Family Values?* Pressing Wife for Divorce in the Hospital

*House Banking Scandal:* Newt Bounced 22 Checks

*Book Deals:* Murdoch's $4.5 Million wasn't the first

*GOPAC sleaze:* Taxpayer subsidies for his partisan campaign course.

*Corporate reward:* $2,500/month to Newt's wife

*Who Owns Him?*

*Quotes:*


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)




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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

*Lance SAID: Why we have placed such restrictions on Manufacturing that companies cant make goods at a competitive price any longer.*

I obviously disagree. Surely you do not mean restrictions like:
++ The 40 hour work week
++ Healthcare at work
++ The 8-hour work day

*U.S. Wages Aren't Keeping Up With U.S. Productivity, EPI Says *
A recent report by the Economic Policy Institute reveals that benefits and wages haven't kept up with the increasing productivity of American workers, both in private and public sectors.

The report, "The Sad But True Story Of Wages In America," by economists Lawrence Mishel and Heidi Shierholz, finds that American workers across the board-whether in the private or public sector, high school- or college-educated -- "have suffered from decades of stagnating wages despite large gains in productivity." The trend isn't new, either. Between 1979 and 2009, EPI says, U.S. productivity increased by 80 percent, while the hourly wage of the median worker has only gone up by 10.1 percent.


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Wow, Moment..I'm not sure what statement that picture makes…


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## S4S (Jan 22, 2011)

Inside joke between me and cr1 . It was on another thread but it was deleted .
Can you imagine that ?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!









right cheer on this topic


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

More on WHY some are misinformed about why the US can't compete on the WORLD Market.Those of us 50 and older have worked an ENTIRE career while being screwed out of fair wages for the ENTIRE time, 1980-2010:

Original SOURCE:





































*…and it starts looking a lot like 1929.*


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)




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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

The problem in the EPI report is that it ignores the effect of outsourcing.

Certainly produtivity has increased with automation continuously, as well as Toyota LEAN methodology, Six Sigma and a host of other initiatives.

The reason productivity seems so unhinged from wages - is because the jobs where productivity was low - with high labor content, were the first things that went to China/India/Malaysia etc.
So when you look at the productivity of the *few remaining industries and fewer every year*...guess what? productivity appears to dramatically outpace wages.

Maybe these 0.01 percenters need to pony up (and Matt Damon isn't in the top 40 list)

40. Eddie Murphy
ACTOR (WME) 
ESTIMATED 2010 EARNINGS: $13 MILLION (2009 rank: -)

39. Guy Ritchie
DIRECTOR (CAA) 
ESTIMATED 2010 EARNINGS: $13.5 MILLION (2009 rank: -)

38. Shawn Levy
DIRECTOR, PRODUCER (WME) 
ESTIMATED 2010 EARNINGS: $14 MILLION (2009 rank: 26)

37. Hugh Jackman
ACTOR (WME) 
ESTIMATED 2010 EARNINGS: $14 MILLION (2009 rank: -)

36. Reese Witherspoon
ACTRESS (CAA) 
ESTIMATED 2010 EARNINGS: $14.5 MILLION (2009 rank: 31)

35. Tom Cruise
ACTOR, PRODUCER, WRITER (CAA) 
ESTIMATED 2010 EARNINGS: $14.5 MILLION (2009 rank: -)

34. Shia LaBeouf
ACTOR (CAA) 
ESTIMATED 2010 EARNINGS: $16 MILLION (2009 rank: 39)

33. Katherine Heigl
ACTRESS, PRODUCER (Paradigm) 
ESTIMATED 2010 EARNINGS: $16 MILLION (2009 rank: 25)

32. Martin Scorsese
DIRECTOR, PRODUCER (WME) 
ESTIMATED 2010 EARNINGS: $17 MILLION (2009 rank: -)

31. Steve Carell
ACTOR, PRODUCER (WME) 
ESTIMATED 2010 EARNINGS: $17.5 MILLION (2009 rank: 22)

30. Ben Stiller
ACTOR, PRODUCER (WME) 
ESTIMATED 2010 EARNINGS: $18 MILLION (2009 rank: 7)

29. Vin Diesel
ACTOR, PRODUCER (CAA) 
ESTIMATED 2010 EARNINGS: $18 MILLION (2009 rank: -)

28. Daniel Craig
ACTOR (CAA) 
ESTIMATED 2010 EARNINGS: $18 MILLION (2009 rank: -)

27. Vince Vaughn
ACTOR (CAA) 
ESTIMATED 2010 EARNINGS: $18.5 MILLION (2009 rank: -) 
$17.5 million: The Dilemma (fee for starring) 
$1 million: Older film revenue
26. Owen Wilson
ACTOR (United Talent Agency) 
ESTIMATED 2010 EARNINGS: $19.5 MILLION (2009 rank: 16)

25. Joel Silver
PRODUCER (WME) 
ESTIMATED 2010 EARNINGS: $21 MILLION (2009 rank: -)

24. Christopher Meledandri
PRODUCER (CAA) 
ESTIMATED 2010 EARNINGS: $21 MILLION (2009 rank: -)

23. Brian Grazer and Ron Howard
PRODUCER; DIRECTOR, PRODUCER (CAA-Howard) 
ESTIMATED 2010 EARNINGS, COMBINED: $21 MILLION (2009 rank: 20)

22. Sandra Bullock
ACTRESS (CAA) 
ESTIMATED 2010 EARNINGS: $22 MILLION (2009 rank: 34)

21. Angelina Jolie
ACTRESS (Media Talent Group) 
ESTIMATED 2010 EARNINGS: $23.5 MILLION (2009 rank: 32)

20. Nicolas Cage
ACTOR (CAA) 
ESTIMATED 2010 EARNINGS: $23.5 MILLION (2009 rank: 17)

19. Jon Favreau
DIRECTOR, PRODUCER (CAA) 
ESTIMATED 2010 EARNINGS: $24 MILLION (2009 rank: -)

18. Jennifer Aniston
ACTRESS (CAA) 
ESTIMATED 2010 EARNINGS: $24.5 MILLION (2009 rank: 33)

17. Tyler Perry
WRITER, DIRECTOR, PRODUCER (WME) 
ESTIMATED 2010 EARNINGS: $25 MILLION (2009 rank: 11)

16. Jason Blum and Oren Peli
PRODUCER; WRITER, DIRECTOR, PRODUCER (CAA) 
ESTIMATED 2010 EARNINGS: $26.5 MILLION (2009 rank: 27)

15. Robert Pattinson
ACTOR (WME) 
ESTIMATED 2010 EARNINGS: $27.5 MILLION (2009 rank: 35)

14. Jerry Bruckheimer
PRODUCER (CAA) 
ESTIMATED 2010 EARNINGS: $27.5 MILLION (2009 rank: 10)

13. Kristen Stewart
ACTRESS (The Gersh Agency) 
ESTIMATED 2010 EARNINGS: $28.5 MILLION (2009 rank: 37)

12. Joe Roth
PRODUCER (CAA) 
ESTIMATED 2010 EARNINGS: $28.5 MILLION (2009 rank: -)

11. Will Smith
ACTOR, PRODUCER (CAA) 
ESTIMATED 2010 EARNINGS: $29 MILLION (2009 rank: -)

10. Robert Downey Jr.
ACTOR (CAA) 
ESTIMATED 2010 EARNINGS: $31.5 MILLION (2009 rank: 28)

9. Taylor Lautner
ACTOR (WME) 
ESTIMATED 2010 EARNINGS: $33.5 million (2009 rank: -)

8. Todd Phillips
WRITER, DIRECTOR, PRODUCER (CAA) 
ESTIMATED 2010 EARNINGS: $34 MILLION (2009 rank: 5)

7. Adam Sandler
ACTOR, PRODUCER, WRITER (WME) 
ESTIMATED 2010 EARNINGS: $50 MILLION (2009 rank: 12)

6. Tim Burton
DIRECTOR (William Morris Endeavor) 
ESTIMATED 2010 EARNINGS: $53 MILLION (2009 rank: -)

5. Leonardo DiCaprio
ACTOR (Special Artists Agency) 
ESTIMATED 2010 EARNINGS: $62 MILLION (2009 rank: -)

4. Christopher Nolan
WRITER, DIRECTOR, PRODUCER (CAA) 
ESTIMATED 2010 EARNINGS: $71.5 MILLION (2009 rank: -)

3. Steven Spielberg
DIRECTOR, PRODUCER (CAA) 
ESTIMATED 2010 EARNINGS: $80 MILLION (2009 rank: 2)

2. Johnny Depp
ACTOR (United Talent Agency)
ESTIMATED 2010 EARNINGS: $100 MILLION (2009 rank: 21)

1. James Cameron
WRITER, DIRECTOR, PRODUCER (Creative Artists Agency)
ESTIMATED 2010 EARNINGS: $257 MILLION (2009 rank: 4)


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## S4S (Jan 22, 2011)

*


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

Back to Civility…......

Yes, Dude, We certainly need a new President.
If for nothing more, than to bring the far left back from the insanity of trying to undermine/destroy a nation that was, in the past, and will be again, the hope of the rest of the world for a better future.
We need to get back to family values, individual productive pride, and respect for those individuals who make their lives healthy and prosperous by not relying on a government to coddle them from cradle to grave, but through their own self motivation.
We need a new President that will take us back to what the founding fathers envisioned this country and it's peoples to be. Free from the tyranny of government oppression, excessive tax burden and excessive socialist mandates.
The government needs to leave the people alone and let the free market work it's magic.
But, in order to get back to these ideals, the fraud and corruption of corporations and politicians, that have tainted the system, needs to be finally eradicated for the system to work.


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Thats funny you should reference the founding fathers..that's the whole tea Bagger move..but the truth of the matter is the founding fathers would hate the tea Party and everything it stands for..


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

"Now that they've finished reading the Constitution out loud, the Teabaggers must call out that group of elitist liberals whose values are so antithetical to theirs. I'm talking of course about the Founding Fathers, who the Teabaggers believe are just like them, but aren't*. One is a group of exclusively white men who live in a bygone century, have bad teeth, and think of blacks as 3/5 of a person, and the other are the Founding Fathers."*

* "Now I want you Teabaggers out there to understand one thing. While you idolize the Founding Fathers and dress up like them and smell like them, I think it's pretty clear that the Founding Fathers would have hated your guts, and what's more you would have hated them. They were everything you despise. They studied science, read Plato, hung out in Paris, and thought the Bible was mostly bull********************, and yet here is a popular paining in wing nut America. Yes, that's Jesus with the Founding Fathers behind him presenting the Constitution to America. Either that, or it's a settlement offer for that boy after he sued the rectory."*

"Super religious guy Glenn Beck likes to play dress up as Thomas Paine. Thomas Paine, an atheist who said churches were human inventions set up to terrify and enslave mankind. John Adams said this would be the best of all possible worlds if there were no religion in it, which is not to say the Founders didn't have a moral code, of course they did. They just didn't get it from the Bible, well except for the part about it's cool to own slaves. It's in there folks. I didn't make it up."

* "The Founders disagreed amongst themselves about that and most issues, but the one thing they never argued about was that political power should stay in the hands of the smartest people and out of the hands of the dumbest loudmouth slowing down the checkout line at Home Depot, and yet Sarah Palin once said of Obama we need a commander in chief not a professor of law standing at a lectern. How gay is that? Well I hate to break it to you, but Thomas Jefferson lawyer, Alexander Hamilton constitutional lawyer, James Madison lawyer, John Adams constitutional lawyer. They were not the common man of their day."
*

"Ben Franklin studied scientific phenomenon like lightning and the Aurora Borealis, and were he alive today, he could probably explain to Bill O'Reilly why the tides go in and out. James Madison was fluent in Greek and Latin and could translate Virgil and Cicero. John Boehner can't translate Freed Zakaria, and Thomas Jefferson was an astronomer and a physicist who founded the University of Virginia, played the violin, and spoke six languages, or as Palin would say, all of them."

Bill Maher really knocked this one out of the park. The main difference between the Founding Fathers and today's far right, which the Tea Party ignores, is that the Founders were intellectuals, while the far right has spent decades on American anti-intellectualism jihad. They doubt and distrust science because it conflicts with their religion. They have developed and ability to reject formerly agreed upon facts for new ones that support their political and/or religious ideology.

These people are the exact opposite of the Founding Fathers, yet they have managed to coopt their image and warp their words and legacies to further their corporatist agenda by covering it in a disguise of Revolutionary War era patriotism. Someday we will find out that some expensive Republican consultants and PR firms after doing exhaustive research determined that the figures most likely to sell their latest incarnation to the far right Republican base were the Founding Fathers.

Glenn Beck is the revisionist historian in chief who sells this revised, edited, and falsely molded image of the Founding Fathers. The loyal disciples of Beck have already branded Bill Maher a liar and a socialist. It doesn't matter to them that Maher is speaking the truth, and that they are being sold a group of Founders that bear little resemblance to the real men themselves. No, the right likes to feel patriotic all of the time, so they choose to live in a history that never existed, which seems perfectly fitting for a movement whose grassroots themselves are strictly an illusion.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

So David - do you do anything besides quote Bill Maher as an authority?

It is easy to go google some crap from a website with 12 followers somewhere and claim it is the truth.

To the OP, is Barrack doing a good job?
How's the economy doing?

Do we need to change presidents?

If all you do is look at this forum, one would have to conclude yes…this kind of vitriol was a rarity before Barry got the class warfare machine cranked into high gear - - - we now have LJ's at eachothers throats.

I don't think as a country we are in better shape than 3 years ago.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Or we can all scour the Internet and find clever things - and then Tar everyone with a broad brush -

Like here are all the democrats!









But that is a pointless waste of electrons


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Well, where do I start? First off, Dirt, I do plenty of things besides Quote Bill Maher. As a matter of fact that is the first thing I have posted that was from Mahers site on this thread. And where in that post do I quote him as an "authority'? I never claimed it to be the truth..but I think its an accurate assessment..in my opinion. It may be crap to you, but I suspect the reason you like to label it crap is that it's a little too honest of an assessment of the Tea baggers for your side to swallow. And I'm sure Bill Maher has more than 12 followers..his numbers probably beat that hypocritical, liar racist Rushs followers, and at least he's funny..Rush is just a giant, sweaty, drug addled racist homophobe. I find that piece dead on in it's assessment of the Tea Baggers comparison of themselves to the founding fathers, and the ironic fact that they are really polar opposites. You guys can put your pseudo intellectual republitard spin on it any way it makes you feel better..that's what the right does anyways….distort the facts and make stuff up to suit your ideals and your politics. I also find it a really funny attack on what history will prove to be one of the dumbest, most ill conceived political movements in history, with some of the stupidest, self serving political asses leading it. I'm sure you will follow this with a long post from some stupid republitard website droning on with some bulls**t made up fox news facts..

The cartoons I post are also funny, and make a point that you guys just cant stand to hear…you want to accuse me of painting broad strokes…go re read some of the diatribe that you republitards post on here..

cr1 likes to look down his nose at everyone..Thinks he's above calling people names…but last time I checked calling people stupid is name calling…a child without a law degree knows that..

And no I dont think this country is any better three years later, and that's directly due to the Republican congress voting down everything our president is trying to do, holding our country hostage to put themselves back in power…and it is going to take longer than 3 years to clean up the Republican mess that was left by Idiot GW Bush…


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## wooddon (Jul 11, 2007)

Pure S--


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Don dont talk about yourself like that…Another Tea Bagger rears his head…


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

*I never claimed it to be the truth..but I think its an accurate assessment*
Okay I'll bite what is the difference in your view?

*what history will prove to be one of the dumbest, most ill conceived political movements in history, with some of the stupidest, self serving political asses leading it.*
I assume you are talking about Occupy Wall Street?

*distort the facts and make stuff up to suit your ideals and your politics*

see: holding our country hostage to put themselves back in power

*And no I dont think this country is any better three years later, and that's directly due to the Republican congress voting down everything our president is trying to do*

What happened during the first half of his term when he had Democratic congress and a Republican Supermajority til Teddy died?? As for voting it down, how come it never even comes to a vote under Harry Reid (D) in the Democratic Senate?
Congress is statutorily obligated to pass a budget by October 1 of each year; yet, as of August 1, 2011, it has been 824 days since the Senate last passed a budget (April 29, 2009). Majority Leader Reid and Senate Budget Committee Chairman Kent Conrad (D-N.D.) have made it abundantly clear that their decision to not enact a budget resolution is conscious and unified; not the result of partisan bickering. In a May 23, 2011 article in The Washington Examiner, Majority Leader Reid is quoted as saying, "There's no need to have a Democratic budget, in my opinion. It would be foolish for us to do a budget at this stage." 
But the Democrats NOTION of a republican hostage taking is more palpable to the minions.

How many times since 2009 has he claimed that Jobs were the singular focus of the administration, while ramming through healthcare? or Cap and Trade legislation? or Navigating global warming in Copenhagen.
Even Arianna Huffington has jumped off that ship.
http://hotair.com/archives/2011/08/05/obama-hey-my-singular-focus-is-on-jobs/


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

So this is the picture -
How has BARRY and Eric Holder fixed any of this? Can't blame congress….

Oh yeah - Barry is too busy GETTING money from Goldman Sachs to prosecute anybody.
He does know not to crap where he eats i guess,


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

*For Fundraising, Obama Relies Even More on Wall Street*

http://www.cnbc.com/id/43854224/For_Fundraising_Obama_Relies_Even_More_on_Wall_Street

Notice that this is from CNBC

But a new study by the Center for Responsive politics out Friday morning shows that Obama is relying more on Wall Street to fund his re-election this year than he did in 2008.

What's more, the Center has identified 80 bundlers-out of 244 whose names were released by the Obama campaign last week-who are part of the financial sector. Forty-four specifically work for the securities and investment industry.

Even when Obama is receiving criticism from some quarters on Wall Street, he's adding new Wall Street bundlers who did not work for him in 2008. Four of them are: *former Goldman Sachs CEO Jon Corzine*, Evercore Partners executive Charles Myers, Greenstreet Real Estate Partners CEO Steven Green and Azita Raji, a former investment banker for JPMorgan.

The other five finance-related top tier-Obama bundlers, who are bundling for him again this campaign, are:

Mark and Nancy Gilbert, of Barclays
Blair Effron, of Centerview Partners
Kirk Rudy, of Endeavor Real Estate
Orin Kramer, of Boston Provident
John Emerson, of Capital Group Companies

I Highlighted Corzine - that yes the IMF crook is a top Obama bundler - so you can be sure justice will NEVER touch him.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

Latest news reports of last week were that he has lost the support (read donations) of Wall street. Along with many Dems that want none of his baggage next election year.
You reap what you sow.


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

*I never claimed it to be the truth..but I think its an accurate assessment
Okay I'll bite what is the difference in your view?*

Just what it says…I never claimed anything..I posted what I thought was a funny accurate assessment of the tea partys comparing itself to the founding fathers..and when you challenged me on it I said I thought it was an accurate assessment..

*what history will prove to be one of the dumbest, most ill conceived political movements in history, with some of the stupidest, self serving political asses leading it.
I assume you are talking about Occupy Wall Street?*

No, I am talking about the clown show that is the Tea Party

*distort the facts and make stuff up to suit your ideals and your politics

see: holding our country hostage to put themselves back in power*

OK…see it whatever way you want..but I have watched video footage of republicans openly stating that they will do whatever they can to disrupt and not allow any legislation that Obama tries to put through..it is a documented fact..but I suppose in your distorted view that's for the good of the country..Your fearless leader, and hillbilly heroin/viagra addict Rush not so slim-baugh himself proudly declared…I hope he fails..that's real American..

*And no I dont think this country is any better three years later, and that's directly due to the Republican congress voting down everything our president is trying to do*

Exactly…

I do like that cartoon you posted..


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

brad no name calling the term tea baggers followed but the other name calling and the people who listen to him then you use another foul name is no longer tolerated in this thread no personal attacks and that was one this is your last warning so please live within the rules please


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

If i get flagged repeatedly its from people that cant stand to hear the truth about their savior Rush, or stand to hear a contrary opinion that might upset the apple cart that is your delusional republican life..

Lance is on his way to scrubbing all the contrary opinions from this little K*** rally….


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

While the right has Limbaugh - Here are the pundits on pedestals for the Left:

"Republicans, whose goal in life is to profit from disaster and who don't give a hoot about human beings, either can't or won't. Which is why I personally think they should be exterminated before they cause any more harm." - The Village Voice's Michael Feingold

"You guys see Live and Let Die, the great Bond film with Yaphet Kotto as the bad guy, Mr. Big? In the end they jam a big CO2 pellet in his face and he blew up. I have to tell you, Rush Limbaugh is looking more and more like Mr. Big, and at some point somebody's going to jam a CO2 pellet into his head and he's going to explode like a giant blimp. That day may come. Not yet. But we'll be there to watch. I think he's Mr. Big, I think Yaphet Kotto. Are you watching, Rush?" - Chris Matthews

But let me ask you this: Would you render the same support to someone who hadn't conscientiously objected, but rather instead rolled a grenade under their line officer in order to neutralize the combat capacity of their unit?" - University Professor Ward Churhill on supporting soldiers who frag their officers

"Drudge? Aw, Drudge, somebody ought to wrap a strong Republican entrail around his neck and hoist him up about six feet in the air and watch him bounce." - Liberal radio host, Mike Malloy

■ Dick Cheney Eats Babies: "Cheney, by the way, looks very ruddy. I couldn't get over that. Like, he must have feasted on a Jewish baby, or a Muslim baby. He must have sent his people out to get one and bring it back so he could drink its blood." (Mike Malloy)

■ Dick Cheney Should Die: "He is an enemy of the country, in my opinion. Dick Cheney is an enemy of the country….Lord, take him to the Promised Land, will you? See, I don't even wish the guy goes to Hell, I just want to get him the hell out of here." (Ed Schultz)

■ Rush Limbaugh Should Die: "I'm waiting for the day when I pick up the newspaper or click on the Internet and find that he's choked to death on his own throat fat, or a great big wad of saliva or something, whatever. Go away, Limbaugh, you make me sick." (Mike Malloy)

■ Michele Bachmann Should Die: "So, Michele, slit your wrist! Go ahead! I mean, you know, why not? I mean, if you want to - or, you know, do us all a better thing. Move that knife up about two feet. I mean, start right at the collarbone." (Montel Williams)


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

I agree with all those..


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

There is that offensive name for the tea party again.
Strike three.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Tainting the tea party movement with the charge of racism is proving to be an effective strategy for Democrats. There is no evidence that tea party adherents are any more racist than other Republicans, and indeed many other Americans. But getting them to spend their time purging their ranks and having candidates distance themselves should help Democrats win in November. Having one's opponent rebut charges of racism is far better than discussing joblessness.-Prof. Mary Frances Berry, Penn. State

This is the Left stratege here too from Mike and David - - throw out a bunch of junk to steer discussion away from solutions.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

*I agree with all those..*

Yes David I know - Frankly that is more worrisome than the 'name calling' and flagging and blocking. That someone finds these public positions by TV and Radio news and commentary folks OK.

Why would you defend those threats of violence with support as much as Montel Williams BROADCASTING for Michelle Bachman to comit Suicide?

What if Bill O'Reilley said this about Hillary during the primaries?

The left would scream that these folk should be fired.
But when it comes from the left - it is crickets….or better the "it was a joke!" excuse.


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

*Tainting the tea party movement with the charge of racism is proving to be an effective strategy for Democrats. There is no evidence that tea party adherents are any more racist than other Republicans, and indeed many other Americans.*

HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! ARE you kidding me? WOW….
"A wink is as good as a nudge to a blind bat" Monty python..

*That someone finds these public positions by TV and Radio news and commentary folks OK.*

No different than the cries of violence and hate coming from all the pundits on the Right…Wanting Rush to die..putting cross hairs on political districts..you pick your poison..


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)




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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

Alcoholism
"After an alcoholic binge in 1937, Lewis checked into the Austen Riggs Center, a psychiatric hospital in Stockbridge, Massachusetts for treatment. His doctors gave Lewis a blunt assessment that he needed to decide "whether he was going to live without alcohol or die by it, one or the other." Lewis checked out after 10 days, lacking, one of his physicians wrote to a colleague, any "fundamental understanding of his problem."


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

That's a great observation there Jim..funny though you point that out, but worship every word that comes out of a Oxycontin addicts mouth..


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

*Democratic politicians charged with pervasive pattern of racism*
Charles M. Blow has a scathing OpEd in today's New York Times blasting Democratic politicians: Smoke and Horrors

He refers to a war "being waged primarily against minorities and promoted, fueled and financed primarily by Democratic politicians."

He notes the latest figures in California showing a marijuana war that grossly and disproportionately targets minorities, yet has a Democratic administration "chest-thumping" against an initiative designed, in part, to address that problem.

He points out that it was a Democratic president who signed the provision forcing young people out of college for drug offenses (aimed primarily at poor young people).

And he reminds us that it's Democrats that keep pushing to restore funding to the Byrne grants - grants that push a numbers-oriented drug war frenzy that naturally is staged predominantly in minority communities.

Why would Democrats support a program that has such a deleterious effect on their most loyal constituencies? It is, in part, callous political calculus. It's an easy and relatively cheap way for them to buy a tough-on-crime badge while simultaneously pleasing police unions. The fact that they are ruining the lives of hundreds of thousands of black and Hispanic men and, by extension, the communities they belong to barely seems to register.

This is outrageous and immoral and the Democrat's complicity is unconscionable, particularly for a party that likes to promote its social justice bona fides.

No one knows all the repercussions of legalizing marijuana, but it is clear that criminalizing it has made it a life-ruining racial weapon. As Ms. Alexander told me, "Our failed war on drugs has done incalculable damage."

When will politicians have the courage to stand up, acknowledge this fact and stop allowing young minority men to be collateral damage?


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Charles M Blow, huh…..oh I am so biting my tongue right now….

*Why would Democrats support a program that has such a deleterious effect on their most loyal constituencies*

Oh I see..the most loyal constituents of the Democratic party are hopped up minority's? ok Rush…


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Might check things out - Mr. Blow is a Democrat writing for the Times…..scroll down to support your minortiy position to his photo?
See his oher postings on the Times if you have reason to doubt he is a hard core Democrat

*Columnist Biography: Charles M. Blow *










Charles M. Blow is The New York Times's visual Op-Ed columist. His column appears in The Times on Saturday.

Skip to next paragraph

Charles M. Blow 
Mr. Blow joined The New York Times in 1994 as a graphics editor and quickly became the paper's graphics director, a position he held for nine years. In that role, he led The Times to a best of show award from the Society of News Design for the Times's information graphics coverage of 9/11, the first time the award had been given for graphics coverage. He also led the paper to its first two best in show awards from the Malofiej International Infographics Summit for work that included coverage of the Iraq war. Mr. Blow went on to become the paper's Design Director for News before leaving in 2006 to become the Art Director of National Geographic Magazine. Before coming to The Times, Mr. Blow had been a graphic artist at The Detroit News.

Mr. Blow graduated magna cum laude from Grambling State University in Louisiana, where he received a B.A. in mass communications. He lives in Brooklyn with his three children.


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Dirt..I was biting my tongue trying not to make fun of the name…I didn't want to give Lance an opportunity to kick me based on that…


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

I'm CERTAIN that Mr. Blow never was teased in high school with that name….. (dripping sarcasm)

I posted his background based on the "most loyal constituents of the Democratic party are hopped up minority's"

This guy is a hard core democrat - but he is starting to cry foul over how the democrats treat the black demographic while claiming to be their champions….

Something most Right wingers point out looking at the welfare state for the past 30 years….that despite a TON of money and ever expanding efforts, things are not better now than they were in the 60's


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)




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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Saved the best for last


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Funny over in leftland - AKA Mikes Rant - the Welfare State is considered to be the working class.
The Welfare state are those living in government housing, on Medicaid and foodstamps.
Those programs have gotten larger every year for 40 years, adding school lunches during summer, school dinners as well. Regardless where one stands, we see continuous growth in spending on handouts, which has not translated into wealth for the disaffected.

As far as productivity climbing per person in the 80's : 2 things DESKTOP COMPUTERS and OUTSOUCING
Basic Statistics - which we have to take for science - when you OUTSOURCE, all the labor intensive activities to China. and then Measure productivity of the REMAINING workforce - - you will see dramatic increases in productivity.
Of course the left just assumes evil corporations chain people to the machines and make them work 16 hour shifts with one bathroom break, but truth and liberal Dogma aren't the same thing. Look at the real advent of CAD-CNC where the first programs on paper tape reduced operations from 8 hours to 15 minutes. - - must have been those damn REPULICANS - forcing MIT to work on CNC. Just like ATM's are the cause of unemployment??

Those of us that have worked in NON-government positions know this, but principals and park rangers - arent that versed in production and economy of scale, beyone a wiki definition of the terms or a visit to the AFLCIO website.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

The work of Dems in New York

Trash Can Tickets In Queens: 
A Queens man is very upset after trying to put his trash out for collection and ending up with a ticket.

He, and others, are getting snared in an enforcement of a law that few people even know exists.

The scrooge award goes to the New York City Sanitation Department for the $100 tickets.

Raymond Janson says he received the $100 fine *for putting his garbage cans at the curb 30 minutes early*.

"I can't say how incensed I am over this," Janson says. "Not only at the excessive amount, but the nature of the summons."
Ahhh statism.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

*Stimulous in Texas*
Coburns report on Waste for 2011

11) Drug-Themed "Mellow Mushroom" Pizza Restaurant - (TX) $484,000
Our nation currently faces many challenges; a shortage of beer and pizza, however, is rarely cited as one of them. Still, a private developer received nearly half a million dollars in federal funds to build Mellow Mushroom Pizza Bakers,a
nationwide pizza chain, in Arlington, Texas. Mellow Mushroom is known for its tongue-incheek references to drug and hippie culture, sponsoring events such as the Sweetwater 420 Fest and calling its staff the ―Shroom Crew.










Reports indicate the project will cost approximately $1.3 million, with $484,000 in federal funding came from the Community Development Block Grant program at the U.S.Department of Housing and Urban Development.

REALLY - - -HALF MILLION in tax dollars for a pizza restaurant?


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

DrDirt
You couldn't have said it better. I in fact was one of those back in 1974, that generated paper tape computer programs on a teletype machine, linking our facility in Illinois with a mainframe in Michigan. My employer purchased a "wire EDM" NC machine that replaced the arduous surface grinding of machine components. 
What this accomplished was a task that could take 30 hours to produce a die component, now could be fabricated in 3 hours.
All the toolmakers were at first against this process, as they saw it as an end to their profession. It in fact made everyone much more productive and put increased and grew the business. We actually hired more toolmakers as we grew.

Just think if farmers rejected tractors and stuck with Mules. Lots of laborers, but a country starving.
Improvements in processes should be welcomed, as they create new opportunities.
Unfair trade practices are the culprit, not businesses improving and growing.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Yep CR I agree - a lot of technology advancement resulted in a loss of jobs.
However that is a different argument than the left makes where they just pull up a* productivity graph and say See the Republican Politicians, Mainly REAGAN, did this to us in the 80's.* Advancement and outsourcing meant just in basic numbers that the remaining person (at the keyboard) looks really productive running a robot doing the job of 5 people.

My point was that the remaining person isn't in a sweatshop doing 5 times the labor he used to, but rather when you *measure factory output and divide by the headcount *- productivity per person is growing faster than wages.

By the way if that were not the case - those jobs would also be going go overseas. Production MUST exceed the costs of making things or you go bankrupt.

But hey I only work in the largest lamp production plant in the world….so I have no idea about benchmarking against competition in low wage countries (sarcasm)- - - because I dont have a PHD in Education Administration available mail order from University of Phoenix.

so she got *advice* from her dad who was the high school shop teacher back in Alaska,
We didn't send a Sealand van of Used Tools from Interior Alaska down to Kansas…


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Ever since mankind started using their brains, inventions have been made to advance people's lives, starting with flint tools and of course the wheel.
Each period of time has produced "benefits" that have reduced the number of people needed to make things, and wars, famine and plagues have provided a safety valve by drastically reducing the population in order to maintain a balance between makers and users.
In today's world we find ourselves conquerors of deceases, pacifists, inventors of less labor intensive methods and a world full of "stuff" for a population far existing the current number.
This is called progress. It reflects the "need" to make more of everything, and as cheaply as possible.

So what is the answer? Will we end up as portrayed in Logan's Run? Should we shift into reverse?
We are already at the argument stage, bombarding pseudo facts and theories around which don't really address the root cause. Have we reached the point of "overkill". Just how will we deal with an ever increasing world population with no extra land being available and no work to make a living?

It makes you think and ponder where we are, and where we are headed. Give it some thought.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

A lot here I don't agree with.
There are plenty of "college" people with menial or no jobs.
There are plenty of people with no college that have and are doing quite well.
Life is what you make of it.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Jim your right about the outcomes people are experiencing.

My take though is that there is a push that all K-12 education has to be "College Prep" 
And while yes highschool should prepare you to go to college, everybdy there in school with you isn't going to make it into college wheter that reason is, Brains, Money or Interest.

There are a lot of good positions in the trades that pay in many cases better than the White Collar positions - look at journeyman plumbers and electricians, particularly those that hang out their own shingle.
There isn't anything in high school for those folks anymore - the shop classes are largely all gone and have been moved into trade school programs - which have nearly college level tuitions rather than being incorporated into the schools like they were when I graduated.

Everyone decided that even though little billy sits in the corner and eats paste - he should be "prepared" to go to MIT.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

I'd say the problems Mike says came to education around 1980 is about right - with the

The United States Department of Education, signed into law by President Jimmy Carter on October 17, 1979, it began operating on *May 16, 1980.* there's the tipping point

All educators with good ideas of their own were silenced to ensure that thier district got the federal funds. while such great bipartisan programs like No Child Left Behind got rolling

I had to agree with that hard core republican Patricia Shroeder oops.. Democrat of Colorado.

"No matter what anyone says, the Department of Education will not just write checks to local school boards. They will meddle in everything. I do not want that."

http://membership.cagw.org/site/PageServer?pagename=policy_Department_of_Education
Various audits across the country have estimated that as little as 26 percent of DoEd funds are spent in the classroom. In a 1993 survey of small schools in Ohio, then-Governor George Voinovich® noted that as many as 170 federal reports totaling more than 700 pages must be filed by school officials each year. These reports comprise 55 percent of all school district paperwork. The Ohio survey illustrates the excessive spending for administrative activities required by DoEd.

*To me the value of the DOE is low, but that is debatable - 
What seems certain is that this is where the "one size fit's all approach" to educatino came from and we went to mainstreaming students and pure college prep curriculum. Just try to find a DOE position supporting vocational education in the K-12 curriculum.*


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Hey, somebody's gota wash cr1's car, right?


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Sarah Palin Questions Obama White House Holiday Card

Former Alaska Governor Sarah Palin® attacked the White House holiday card in an article on Fox News Radio.

The front of the card shows the Obamas' dog, Bo, sitting in a very Christmas-like setting, with a fireplace decorated with wreaths and red ribbons, and a table with a poinsettia plant and presents. "From our family to yours, may your holidays shine with the light of the season," reads the inside of the card, which is signed by the Obamas (including Bo).
"It's odd," she said, wondering why the president's Christmas card highlights his dog instead of traditions like 'family, faith and freedom.'" 
The two key elements in this steaming pile of excrement..Sarah Palin, Fox News Radio,

Wow, what a desperate attempt at getting some press..whats next, is she gonna complain about the brand of toilet paper they have in the white house.." Only a Muslim socialist would use Charmin…when clearly Scott tissue is about family, faith and freedom"


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Dunno David are her questions so unusual - 
We already know that in the House of Representatives you are Foridden to say Merry Christmas in an e-mail.
I agree that house members should NOT get to frank (gov't paid postage) for their personal correspondance - but really??? even in an Email you cannot say Merry Christmas NOR HAPPY NEW YEAR? unless it is a generic reference to the TIME of year, and not about celebrating new years as a holiday.

To Obama's card:
I know our Christmas cards usualy have a FAMILY photo rather than a "check out my dog Spot!" card. So I think that is odd myself.
I look at this situation and think - I bet Barry and Michelle woud have preferred a traditional card to the carefully scrubbed in a comitteePC card that they used.

Youre right - 
If it had Barry on the card, people would have screamed "he thinks the holiday is about him…what an ego blah blah" 
------ - - - --- - - -

And everybody knows only wusses use 2 ply toilet paper. The real men use the single ply industrial on the 300 foot rolls, that you can grab a couple squares and rub out and orange peeley lacquer to a high gloss finish in our shops with


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

C'mon..really? We have sunk to criticizing the Christmas card? I'm sorry I can't stand that lunatic…Thats all she's got? Man I really hope she throws her dead moose's head hat in the ring..I want to see her humiliated again on a national stage

We put my daughter and the dog in front of the tree and shoot it for our Xmas card..been doing that since she was little.. thru two dogs..my dogs are like my children..I know… I'm weird like that..

I agree the PC bull makes me sick…I mean really what are we celebrating here anyways? Can't say merry Xmas, or happy New Year? We are circling the drain as a society with this PC crap…

What the hell does Palin expect on the card? Giant crosses, and people with guns? I mean we all know when she says freedom, shes talkin 'bout guns..maybe that's what she would put on the card..but isn't that what America is about? To put whatever you want on your Xmas card? Besides, I'm sure the Obamas had little to know input to what the card would be…handled completely by a White House staffer, and purposefully generic and PC..

*And everybody knows only wusses use 2 ply toilet paper*

Word..


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

Duh….........
David,
I believe *you* brought up the Christmas card….........from left field, as usual.
And when you don't have any spiel to offer, you revert back to Palin, or Rush!
It's getting old.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Hey David -
We agree on the PC stuff - - interesting to note and something Palin should have looked at - 
THe 8 cards Bush, most said happy holidays of the ' joyous season' etc. NEVER Merry Christmas

Last I saw was Reagan in 82 - - -later 87/88 versions were HOLIDAY stuff

"With all best wishes for a joyous Christmas and a peaceful New Year from the President and Mrs. Reagan 1982"


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

first off the rule is no personal attacks that is not to much to ask every one knows that is the website rules and I am tired of the personal attacks if you argue with out being a jerk you are all fine


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

David ….in with the good air hold….. out with the bad…

Its not that bad!


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

I never heard of a sharp knife in a draw….......maybe a "drawer"?
Prose, please Prose


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Thats all you got Jim..just keep picking apart my spelling and grammar…


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Tea partier - - not a knicker fan myself - but by comparison









Occupy Wall street









But sorry I cannot see the "power to the People" crapping on police cars.
You understand these guys right David? please explain WTF this guy is* accomplishing*


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)




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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

You know Dirt…I think there was some really great ideas behind the original notion of Occupy wall st…that I could get behind..but just like the peace movements of the 60's every move to change on that scale always attracts the freaks and the people that want to push their cause, even if its unrelated..and the people that just want to hang out and party. The original idea behind OWS, as I saw it was people wanted accountability for what happened to our economy in 2008..they were confused and angry that there has been not one single inquiry..not one arrest..not one fine…then it degenerated into innocent people being maced by fat university cops, and stoned jobless hippies grinding their bare asses into police cars..that one definitely puzzles me..

And nice job tracking down the only picture of a not so crazy tea Party protester..i can find some doozys on the far side of that scale…that make that OWS protester look like a nun..but I digress…it's not so much the silly costumes with the tea bags hanging in their faces, or the constant complaining about the size of government..when GW Bush was quadrupling the size of Govt. in his 2 terms where were all these patriot whiners then? hmm? Its the violent, gun related rhetoric, it's the constant comparisons of themselves to the founding fathers when nothing could be further from the truth, the constant propping up of the second amendment to use as a bully pulpit, the incessant complaining and cutting apart of everything Obama does, ..the guy could crap out a gold egg and Sarah Palin would complain it wasn't engraved…..it just looks like a big goofy side show to me…fueled by hate, and Rush Limbaugh..

Oh, and I really like that Media guide to protesters..good one!


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

brad if you are talking about the number of workers on the fed payroll that was because we were in two wars and we raised the amount of military people in the services . other than that bush cut back wasteful government jobs like the director of the spotted frog. that is in under Obama.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

Thats all you got Jim..just keep picking apart my spelling and grammar…

you have this coming brad it is an attack you made on me . for punctuation and sentence structure doesn't feel nice does it .


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## exelectrician (Oct 3, 2011)

YES WE NEED A NEW PRESIDENT who will give the next generation DECENT TEACHERS
What we need are teachers in schools who have the backbone to teach the difference of right from wrong. 
Teachers who have the guts to teach that hard work never hurt anybody. 
Teachers who have that God given gift to give students inspiration and HOPE that there really is a better future out there. 
Teachers who have the nuts to boldly chasten those students who will not listen to reason.
I say all this because I was raised in Africa under Victorian British rules, corporal punishment was a way of life. It was harsh but very fair. And you know what??? It works.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

I hear you my wife is a top performer in teaching she is a standout above the norm. she always goes the extra mile to get through to the slow kids who are not college bound. last year was the first time the school let her have a gate class they say it is because she is so good with the underachievers making more students graduate. so once she got gate kids she finally felt rewarded because she really got to take kids that get it to a higher level than any teacher in her school had ever done with several kids passing the AP gate class and receiving college credit for her work. she is one of the nations best teachers and we need a ton more like her believe me they are rare today. I am proud of my wife . she is a great teacher. she has her masters in math curricular development and knows how to get kids to achieve even though she teaches in a ghetto school.


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Lance..I'm not crying about it..he can pick on me all he wants..I was just pointing out that's the only thing he can come up with to criticize me about..and its one use of the wrong word…your posts are giant paragraph long run on sentences, with no punctuation at all..a slight difference…


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

David -
Spending under bush Really?

8 years of Bill Clinton - - AVERAGE OVERSPEND 500 million dollars a DAY borrowed.
8 years of Bush Average overspend 1.5Billion every friggin Day.
Barry campaigned about how unsustainable it was and even got the senate Democrats to vote lock step against raising the debt celing - - suppose they wanted everyone on social security to stave and run the country into a wall?

Now under Barack we overspend by 4.2 billion every day.

The right was indeed complaining about unsustainable deficits. This is part of Barrys attraction in 2008

Now Obama came in and nearly TRIPLES the damage Bush was building up….and presto there is a tea party.

Yeah I know we have had porkulous bills and such because of what Barry Inherited…..when does he OWN his failure? Obama saw the Bush Fire and got out the Gasoline


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

*You know Dirt…I think there was some really great ideas behind the original notion of Occupy wall st…that I could get behind..but just like the peace movements of the 60's every move to change on that scale always attracts the freaks and the people that want to push their cause, even if its unrelated..and the people that just want to hang out and party.*

Brad, this is actually how I feel about it. The sum of it is embarrassing. I don't think that was the original intent. Anyhow, I don't feel like arguing right now but I found a few cartoons for you.



















The second one doesn't have anything to do with politics; it's just awesome, lol.
I'm still a Republican; the Democratic cartoons are definitely funnier, though


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Kepp in mind there are no *Bush* tax cuts anymore.
They *expired* - lookiing at the graphs the bush tax cuts went into effect in 2001…gee the deficit was never more than 500Billion …..but Barry goes from 400Billion/year to 1.4 trillion and the dems want to say it is the Bush Tax rates from 2001? If that were really true the deficit each year would have had to be like Barrys.

Barry voted to extend them BY THE DEMOCRATS - during the lame duck session while the dems controlled both the house and senate.You cant craft legislation and extend a ten year old bill and still blame the past administration.

These are wholly owned by Obama - that the HATED BUSH TAX cuts are in place is the responsibiity and vote of the democratic Sentate, House and President.

If they were so bad as is contended - why are they now a good idea to keep?
Excercise leadership and get rid of them with the certainty of leadership Barry claims to have.


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Al…wow, is that lady smuggling a watermelon in her pants? I love the fact that the ice cream shes eating is a Mickey Mouse head….perfect..and whats with the father and son hip hop act?


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

^Brad, it's true, my Mom loves watermelon. My Dad's got some wicked skills, too


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

*the first openly communist president in history*

Ridiculous…

Of course that's whats going to happen..but me thinks it will be 180 degrees the other way..that pack of losers you call candidates are about as appealing as un-anestatised anal surgery.

4 more years..


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

^I don't see it, Brad. I think that we're being lulled into believing that the combatants in this thread accurately represent the populous. There is 1) smart Left, 2) dumb Left, 3) smart Right, 4) dumb right, and 5) the rest. 2 and 4 make it happen.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Mettete il baccalà, coperto d'acqua, in una casseruola.
Ponete al fuoco, fate prendere il bollore, schiumate, quindi spegnete e lasciate riposare per circa 20 minuti a recipiente coperto.
Controllate che sia tenero e, in caso contrario, bollitelo per altri 10 minuti, quindi mondate perfettamente il pesce da pelle e lische.
Mettetelo in una casseruola pesante e lavoratelo energicamente, con un cucchiaio di legno, unendovi lentamente, a filo, il latte caldo e l'olio.
Lavorate a lungo finché il baccalà si sarà completamente sfibrato, diventando bianco e spumoso come una crema.
Questo lavoro si può fare con un frullatore a vaso o a immersione.
Assaggiate, aggiustate di sale e pepe, completando il tutto con le foglioline di un mazzetto di prezzemolo, tritate finissime insieme con uno spicchio d'aglio.
Si serve freddo, accompagnandolo con crostoni di polenta bianca o galla, arrostiti alla griglia.

I had to Google it but it sounds wonderful (my fiance is an Italian with a long "I"). Cr1 I hope you just love food; and you're not a "foodie". Goodness, surely both sides of the aisle can join together in mutual hatred of arrogant, elitist "foodies". If I catch you in a restaurant waxing poetic over an obscure grape variety, there may be a throat punch in there for you


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Happy Holidays, Cr1:


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

Brad,
I'm hoping he get's 8 to 10.


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Al….you don't sip aged wine with a pinky in the air?....Ya, me either….and about your previous post..2 and 4 make the world go round..

Jim..that's what Bush and Cheeny should have got for war crimes, and getting a few thousand soldiers killed for starting a war we never should have, based on a lie..


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

This is the kinda crap that makes my point precisely, about the Republicans doing everything they can to undermine this administration, hold gov. hostage for their own agenda, and screw the American people in the process…watch as the Republican speaker hurriedly calls for the session to close and ignores the call to discuss and vote on the extension of the payroll tax cut..something that will affect everyone reading this (except for cr1)..





Nice…your Republican government at work..Even Newt said they were acting like asses…

OK, now make with the flood of Fox news spin bull**t..


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

In before the comments on decorum.


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## tom427cid (Aug 21, 2011)

Right back atcha one and all
Merry Christmas(i hope that is still ok to say) and Happy New Year.
tom


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

I just flagged him. I can't believe he used the dreaded "Christmas" word. This is now a secular country. Just ask the left along with the ACLU.

Merry *Christmas* and Happy Hanukah to all and have a Holy, healthy and Happy New Year.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

*Surprised!*

President Barack Obama may need a vacation from his vacation.

Obama plans to travel Friday afternoon to Hawaii for a delayed Christmas vacation.

But the cost of the trip-about $4 million total-has created a firestorm.

Michelle Obama insisted on the pricey Hawaiian holiday while her husband had said he preferred a short trip to the presidential retreat at Camp David, Md., The Daily Mail reported Friday, citing news accounts.

The trip to Hawaii is expected to cost taxpayers almost $4 million, and is the latest example of Michelle Obama's skyrocketing spending, sources told the National Enquirer, according to The Daily Mail.

"The President's advisers have told him that Michelle's spending has spiralled completely out of control," the National Enquirer quoted one source as saying. "Barack read his wife the riot act, but his words fell on deaf ears. Michelle said there was 'no way' she was going to disappoint her daughters."

The White House announced the president's departure plans Friday shortly after the House and the Senate approved a deal to extend payroll tax cuts after House Republicans reversed course Thursday night and dropped their opposition.

With Washington deadlocked, Obama delayed his annual December trip to the Honolulu area, where he was born and spent most of his childhood. He had planned to leave Washington on Dec. 17.
The president's wife and daughters have been in Hawaii since late last week. The Obamas plan to return to Washington in early January.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)




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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

How dare he take a vacation, shop for Xmas gifts for his kids, and celebrate a holiday..what a slacker..

*the National Enquirer quoted one source as saying. *

Some rock solid source you got there jim..

Do I really need to re post that article describing GW Bush..the MOST vacationed president in American history?


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

By the way
Make sure you post the website you copy and paste from so we can tear apart the "source"

Yea, that's all I got! (As you spout)


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

hey Jim…


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

Must be nice to feel popular… Obama goes home for Christmas as President begins $4m Hawaii vacation after tax crisis
Obama signed off crucial payroll tax deal on Friday
Round-trip on Air Force One to Hawaii costs $3.3m
Michelle, Sasha and Malia flew out early last Saturday

President Barack Obama is starting his delayed Christmas vacation in Hawaii after securing an agreement to extend payroll tax cuts into 2012.
Air Force One touched down in Honolulu on Friday evening. The president had planned to start his vacation on December 17, but delayed his departure amid a congressional stalemate over the tax cuts.
The president is joining wife Michelle Obama and daughters Malia and Sasha, who have been in Hawaii for about a week.

The Obamas are expected to stay in Hawaii, the state where the president was born and mostly raised, until early January.
The White House says Obama has no public events scheduled during his trip. 
A small team of White House advisers is traveling with the president to brief him on domestic and international developments.

The President boarded Air Force One on Friday afternoon to begin a round-trip journey that will cost taxpayers an astronomical $3,271,611.
He will join his wife Michelle and daughters Sasha and Malia, who flew out to Hawaii ahead of him on Saturday, for the $4 million holiday.
His departure plans were announced shortly after the House and the Senate signed off on a crucial deal to extend payroll tax cuts.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

The average American could buy a house for the amount of money it takes to run Air Force One every hour. 
The U.S. military has provided an updated estimate on that cost, first published by a taxpayer watchdog group and confirmed by FoxNews.com, and the number is staggering-$181,757 per hour. That's the price tag for shuttling around President Obama, who, as it turns out, has spent more days abroad in his first two years than any other president.

President Obama walks up the stairs of Air Force One before leaving for Lisbon, Portugal, at Andrews Air Force Base on Nov. 18. (AP Photo)
Estimates over the years based on government reports and independent number-crunching have always reflected a steep cost for presidential travel, but the figure provided by the 89th Airlift Wing appears to be far higher than any previously reported. It was first published in a report this week on presidential travel by the National Taxpayers Union Foundation. 
"It's astonishing. It's far higher than any other … figure that's been reported on. It's very surprising, and of course it's just a fraction of the overall cost involved with presidential travel," said policy analyst Demian Brady, who wrote the study. 
Master Sgt. Jeff Capenos, with the 89th Airlift Wing, told FoxNews.com the figure reflects operating costs ranging from fuel to engine and aircraft maintenance. Asked why other public estimates, which typically did not exceed $100,000, were so much lower, he said: "They were probably inaccurate." 
The National Taxpayers Union referred to the publication of the statistic as a "major coup for public disclosure." Brady said the high price tag, as compared with prior estimates, could be attributed not just to inflation, but a better and more specific accounting of the associated costs, as well as upgrades made to the aircraft. He urged the administration to be even more forthcoming with presidential travel costs. 
Brady also used his report in part to tackle rumors about the cost of Obama's 10-day post-election tour through Asia. One Indian newspaper report quoted an anonymous local official claiming it would cost U.S. taxpayers $200 million every day, a figure Brady dismissed as "wildly exaggerated." The Obama administration also shot down that figure, without detailing the actual cost. 
But the trip to India, Indonesia, South Korea and Japan was by no means cheap. While a total by-the-day figure may be impossible to come by, Brady estimated that the 48 hours of flight time logged on the trip would cost at least $8.7 million for Air Force One alone. The president's latest visit to Lisbon, Portugal, for a NATO conference would add another $2.7 million, he figured. 
That Lisbon trip also set a record for Obama. By Brady's accounting, Obama has now logged 55 days overseas, surpassing former President George H.W. Bush's record of 54 days during his first two years. In total, Obama has visited 26 countries-some of them more than once-over the course of 15 trips. 
Having been in office only two years, Obama has not come anywhere close to the overall record for presidential travel. That was set by former President Bill Clinton over the course of his two terms in office. Clinton logged 233 days abroad over the course of 55 trips. Former President George W. Bush comes in at a close second, with 215 days abroad over the course of 49 trips.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/11/24/military-pegs-hourly-air-force-cost-g-obama-sets-travel-record/#ixzz1hSY6zEOD


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Merry Christmas All! I'll see your utterance and raise you a nativity scene










Myself, I'm let's say…. agnostic. But I respect my neighbor's right to do just about anything (like I said, as long as it doesn't threaten my family or my wallet). When I see all the old ladies being helped out of the Baptist church down the road, it brings a smile to my face. If I see trash in their lot, I stop and pick it up. The Xmas lights will probably still be up in March (WV) and I'll still enjoy seeing them. This is a good time of year and I hope you and yours enjoy every bit of it.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

TRAVEL: $3,629,622

The biggest expense is President Barack Obama's round trip flight to Hawaii via Air Force One, a cost the GAO office estimated at $1 million in the year 2000. Contacted today, the GAO confirmed there is no report the independent office affiliated with Congress has prepared since 2000 to operate Air Force One and Air Force Two.

However, the U.S. Air Force provides the most current numbers of $181,757 per flight hour. Travel time for Air Force One direct from Washington D.C. to Hawaii is about 9 hours or $1,635,813 each way for a total of $3,271,622 for the round trip to Hawaii and back.

HOTEL: $72,216

The President's staff and White House Press Corps stay at one of Hawaii's oldest and most elegant hotels, the Moana Surfrider. Hawaii Reporter confirmed they are again staying there this year. Besides its stunningly beautiful view of Waikiki, and its traditional architecture, it is one of the most pricey hotels in the state.

Government rates are $177 per night, but that only is available during certain times a year.

LOCAL TAXPAYER COSTS: $260,000

Local police over time for the president's visit has historically cost Oahu taxpayers $250,000 but may be more expensive this year with the extended vacation.

The total cost (based on what is known) for a 17-day round trip vacation to Hawaii for the President and his family and staff and security is an estimated $4,113,038.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

Merry Christmas Bertha!!!!!!!!
And to everyone else!
Even you Brad


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

Hey Brad


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Source..Fox News…'nuff said..
I'm sure it costs a ton for the President..any President to travel…I'm sure Obama's costs aren't any more or less than any other president..regardless of what Fox news is making up..

Al..Merry Christmas to you as well..and everyone in this blog..even the Tea Party people…

I agree with what you said Al…I say live and let live..as long as it doesn't affect me..The worst thing about the holidays lately is..I used to enjoy Christmas music..there's a station in the area that does a commercial free 24 hrs starting Xmas eve…I would listen to it on and off and it really used to remind me of those great childhood moments..but now they start playing it BEFORE Thanksgiving… in every elevator, every Dunkin Doughnuts, every store. Now it's ruined..by the time Xmas eve rolls around I am totally burnt on Xmas tunes..thanks, corporate America….


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

What are you trying to say with that Jim? I am made of tin? I need an oil can to move my joints? I have no heart? I can swing a mean axe? I wear an upside down funnel as a hat? (something you would really see on a tea Party guy)


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## benchbuilder (Sep 10, 2011)

I have read so much trash here its sickening, Obama didn't put this nation into a tail spin, the former two presidents and we the people did that, don't you remember screaming about how bad it will be if that man gets another four years. Now you think this president made all these problems and want things changed in his first term. But I am sure those of you who voted for the last presidents don't see that or don't want to. I don't care what color the president is, the problem is with us, the people for letting all this happen, we (all of us) have to call, write, email and what ever it takes to tell our reps to get their heads out of their rears and start repersenting us, not screwing us.* If you don't tell them, they don't know*. Change comes when people start taking action, NO, not fighting and killing in the streets, thats not change, thats stupid at its best. I guess its a matter of how much you really want change, if you don't talk to the people that repersent you than don't conplain. Too many people mad but do nothing about it, waiting around for someone to do it for them, you want change, then start by calling your repersentives, complain to them, not me…


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)




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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

The majority of you voted for "change" and you got it. Yup, as you say, "we the people did it." 
They bought the B.S. campaign crap this current white house occupier fed them. Kool Aid and all.
Another Jim Jones "peoples temple" 
The American people are lemmings. "Follow me for hope and change" 
Now they're hopeless and changed for the worse.


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

At the point of the last election, hope and change looked a whole lot better than Granpa Whistle teeth, and Caribou Barbie..And the mess we are in is compliments of the republican party, and GW Bush…Obama didn't make the mess he's just trying to fix it..


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

It's still Bush after 3 years. That all ya got?
I'll keep blaming Carter and Johnson….......maybe Roosevelt.


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

It's the truth..deal with it…


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

*thats not change, thats stupid at its best*


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## benchbuilder (Sep 10, 2011)

How much have you two guys gotten done, Nothing, try talking to someone who can do something about the problems, like your elected reps. Have one of you have done that?


> You want change or just talking


?


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

*"How much have you two guys gotten done, Nothing, try talking to someone who can do something about the problems, like your elected reps."*

They're the ones that got us here.


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

I always felt that to be a ridiculous statement..I don't support cannibalism in any form..


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## benchbuilder (Sep 10, 2011)

Well I guess do nothing as you have, its working for you isnt it!!!


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

Brad,
we finally agree on something!


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

*Brad,
we finally agree on something!*

It's a Xmas miracle!


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

BenchBuilder, I can totally relate to your sentiment. On the internet, it's pretty easy to run your mouth; I know I do it. IRL, I feel like I'm relatively active. I'm not shy about drafting a letter to my local rep. It's ignored of course, because I'm not very connected. All the while, I've been working, paying taxes, not committing crimes, and not taking a dime of entitlements. I'm pretty lazy, so if I can do it, it' pretty easy. 
.
There are some passionate people here, well educated on the issues. I hope they act, like you suggest.
.
Brad, everyone likes a good miracle! What's the weather doing in CT? My Mom just left DE for good, moving on to greener (less property tax) pastures. It's cold with no snow here in WV. I'm not complaining, though, yet


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Is that Cr1 giving me hope? I will Police up my language, take it to a fine reduction. We'll save the World.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

Last chance warning obviously ment nothing to you brad so you call people stupid ane retarded well this is good bye brad no more of your insults will be on this thread


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## mmh (Mar 17, 2008)

Would the world be a better place if all of the elected politicians had to have not only Phd's but also calluses on their hands from doing some actual work?


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

I missed something Dude. Did he go crackers again and was his last post flagged and deleted?


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

*Bullsxxt, bullsxxt, bullsxxt, whats your source? Your source is THE NATIONAL ENQUIRER..get a grip stupid…*

*Listen Jim..if you bother to read my post and tear it apart, at least get it right genious*

It was the two attacks at you Jim. I warned him to stop and he wont stop so he is blocked .if you talk to him and he apologizes to you in writing and you want him back ill consider it. he even misspelled genius


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

MMH, I'd like to see some wear and tear, too. Alas, all the stand-up men are too smart to run. Leaves us all with…well…


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Merry Xmas, Jim. From my family to yours.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

cr1: Aww…...the Christmas Spirit, ......isn't that Special?


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Much like the mainstream media, the lefties on this site go nuts when they cannot control the dialogue.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

well everyone is welcome on this thread if they only stop the name calling as you can see the name calling has stopped id like to have a representative of the left. to show up and speak well and with out being called stupid or republitard but the loosing left side is viscous.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

A Happy and Joyous New Year to ALL Lumberjocks and your families.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

now I see Mikey has started his own thread and he copied my name and he reply's there to what is going on in here. No that guy is just full of hate and has no Ideas of his own he just cuts and pastes his crap from unsighted sources. then he claims he is using the rove playbook to aid him in this battle of wits I must contend he has to do this because left to his own devices he cant keep up in an argument so I am glad he is gone I want the name of his thread changed so he is not leaching off the traffic that this thread has brought to the site. You would think a High School Principal would know its immoral to plagiarize from your fellow LJ .

This thread may loose visits from the ousting of 2 left wing members but it is a lot less stressful when the name calling stops .

All LJ Members are welcome here if they only play nice you all watched as they called people name were warned and still they whine over being banned only now they whine in Mikey's knockoff forum


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

*Here is Obama's partner in crime and how she's struggling through he holidays:*

Pelosi Spends Christmas at Posh Hawaiian Hotel
Published December 27, 2011

*House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi was not dreaming of a white Christmas.*
For the third year in a row, the California Democrat shacked up in a sun-drenched, beachside hotel at Historic Ka'upulehu in Kona on the island of Hawaii, the Hawaii Reporter reported this week. For the past two years, Pelosi reserved *a posh suite that fetches $10,000 a night.*
The Four Seasons Resort Hualalai offers visitors beachfront dining, fashion boutiques and Jack Nicklaus signature golf, the paper reported. In years past, the paper reported, local taxpayers coughed up $34,000 for police detail to escort Pelosi around the island.
President Obama and his family are also spending the holidays at the tropical paradise during a 17-day vacation in Kailua, Oahu.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

I think Harry Reid is at the cowboy poetry festival.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

Yep,
Harry's at Brokeback with Barney Frank.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

cr1: Got any Baileys on the back seat?


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

2-2-12

*Somehow the truth hurts, and this may be it.*

In the coming New Year, 2012, both Groundhog Day and the State of the Union address will occur on the same day.

This is an ironic juxtaposition of events.

One involves a meaningless ritual in which we look to an insignificant
creature of little intelligence for prognostication.

The other involves a groundhog


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

January 3, 2012 Iowa (caucus)
January 10, 2012 New Hampshire (primary)
January 21, 2012 South Carolina (primary)
January 31, 2012 Florida (primary)
February 4, 2012 Nevada (caucus)
February 4-11, 2012 Maine (caucus)
February 7, 2012 Colorado (caucus)
Minnesota (caucus)
Missouri (primary) - *See note below on Missouri
February 28, 2012 Arizona (primary)
Michigan (primary)
March 3, 2012 Washington (caucus)
March 6, 2012
(Super Tuesday) Alaska (caucus)
Georgia (primary)
Idaho (caucus)
Massachusetts (primary)
North Dakota (caucus)
Ohio (primary)
Oklahoma (primary)
Tennessee (primary)
Vermont (primary)
Virginia (primary)
March 6-10, 2012 Wyoming (caucus)
March 10, 2012 Kansas (caucus)
U.S. Virgin Islands (caucus)
March 13, 2012 Alabama (primary)
Hawaii (caucus)
Mississippi (primary)
March 17, 2012 Missouri (GOP caucus) - *See note below on Missouri
March 20, 2012 Illinois (primary)
March 24, 2012 Louisiana (primary)
April 3, 2012 District of Columbia (primary)
Maryland (primary)
Wisconsin (primary)
Texas (primary)
April 24, 2012 Connecticut (primary)
Delaware (primary)
New York (primary)
Pennsylvania (primary)
Rhode Island (primary)
May 8, 2012 Indiana (primary)
North Carolina (primary)
West Virginia (primary)
May 15, 2012 Nebraska (primary)
Oregon (primary)
May 22, 2012 Arkansas (primary)
Kentucky (primary)
June 5, 2012 California (primary)
Montana (primary)
New Jersey (primary)
New Mexico (primary)
South Dakota (primary)
June 26, 2012 Utah (primary)


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

I am afraid i must agree with what you say.

now are there any people on the left that want to say something productive in this thread with out name calling or is it true that the left cant make an argument with out personal attacks. it is becoming very clear that newt will be the next president of the united states. And the Left is gearing up their nasty attacks as we speak but the left is failing to realize that they are a minority that the masses want a democracy not a socialist state and this is why i have now decided newt is my man for the race he isn't a socialist.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Dude, I think Newt is toast. We are going to end up with the moderate, Romney.

The left has to make personal attacks because the vast majority of their ideas have been tried over and over again and failed.

They can't point to any longterm success. They only obtain power by buying votes from an entitlement addictive population.

That is why they want illegal immigrants to be able to vote to broaden their voting pool.

They play class warfare, race baiting politics because it is all they have.

The left is intellectually impotent.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

i agree with everything you said except the newt is out. he has won every debate and we need a smart president and newt is smart . we need to put an end to the entire welfare system and only help the very young and the old. not the lazy I am ok with help the injured to be retrained to get back to work in a job they can do. everyone can do something I am in favor of reform of healthcare to say everyone should be insurable like pay at the pump car insurance this does away with the uninsured but everyone who is capable of work must work .I know is obummer is re elected the country will fall into the deepest financial wreck of all time as he spends and spends till our kids cant pay any more to get us out of debt .

I don't want Romney as i heard from several people that he paid for the trash on cain and i don't want a dirty politician as my president so i dropped mitt for newt . now you know some lefty waco will say morality things about newt that aren't true. but say they are, are they any worse than the rapes by Clinton or the drowning of innocent women like the drunk Kennedy I say they aren't even close


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

by Wayne Allyn Root

Rahm Emanuel cynically said, "You never want a crisis to go to waste." It is now becoming clear that the crisis he was referring to is Barack Obama's presidency.

Obama is no fool. He is not incompetent. To the contrary, he is brilliant. He knows exactly what he's doing. He is purposely overwhelming the U.S. economy to create systemic failure, economic crisis and social chaos-thereby destroying capitalism and our country from within.Â

Barack Obama is my college classmate (Columbia University, class of '83). As Glenn Beck correctly predicted from day one, Obama is following the plan of Cloward & Piven, two professors at Columbia University. They outlined a plan to socialize America by overwhelming the system with government spending and entitlement demands. Add up the clues below. Taken individually they're alarming. Taken as a whole, it is a brilliant, Machiavellian game plan to turn the United States into a socialist/Marxist state with a permanent majority that desperately needs government for survival … and can be counted on to always vote for bigger government. Why not? They have no responsibility to pay for it.

-Universal health care. The health care bill had very little to do with health care.Â It had everything to do with unionizing millions of hospital and health care workers, as well as adding 15,000 to 20,000 new IRS agents (who will join government employee unions). Obama doesn't care that giving free health care to 30 million Americans will add trillions to the national debt. What he does care about is that it cements the dependence of those 30 million voters to Democrats and big government. Who but a socialist revolutionary would pass this reckless spending bill in the middle of a depression?

-Cap and trade. Like health care legislation having nothing to do with health care, cap and trade has nothing to do with global warming. It has everything to do with redistribution of income, government control of the economy and a criminal payoff to Obama's biggest contributors. Those powerful and wealthy unions and contributors (like GE, which owns NBC, MSNBC and CNBC) can then be counted on to support everything Obama wants. They will kick-back hundreds of millions of dollars in contributions to Obama and the Democratic Party to keep them in power. The bonus is that all the new taxes on Americans with bigger cars, bigger homes and businesses helps Obama "spread the wealth around."

-Make Puerto Rico a state. Why? Who's asking for a 51st state? Who's asking for millions of new welfare recipients and government entitlement addicts in the middle of a depression?Â Certainly not American taxpayers. But this has been Obama's plan all along. His goal is to add two new Democrat senators, five Democrat congressman and a million loyal Democratic voters who are dependent on big government.

-Legalize 12 million illegal immigrants. Just giving these 12 million potential new citizens free health care alone could overwhelm the system and bankrupt America. But it adds 12 million reliable new Democrat voters who can be counted on to support big government.Â Add another few trillion dollars in welfare, aid to dependent children, food stamps, free medical, education, tax credits for the poor, and eventually Social Security.

-Stimulus and bailouts. Where did all that money go? It went to Democrat contributors, organizations (ACORN), and unions-including billions of dollars to save or create jobs of government employees across the country. It went to save GM and Chrysler so that their employees could keep paying union dues. It went to AIG so that Goldman Sachs could be bailed out (after giving Obama almost $1 million in contributions). A staggering $125 billion went to teachers (thereby protecting their union dues). All those public employees will vote loyally Democrat to protect their bloated salaries and pensions that are bankrupting America. The country goes broke, future generations face a bleak future, but Obama, the Democrat Party, government, and the unions grow more powerful. The ends justify the means.

-Raise taxes on small business owners, high-income earners, and job creators. Put the entire burden on only the top 20 percent of taxpayers, redistribute the income, punish success, and reward those who did nothing to deserve it (except vote for Obama). Reagan wanted to dramatically cut taxes in order to starve the government. Obama wants to dramatically raise taxes to starve his political opposition.

With the acts outlined above, Obama and his regime have created a vast and rapidly expanding constituency of voters dependent on big government; a vast privileged class of public employees who work for big government; and a government dedicated to destroying capitalism and installing themselves as socialist rulers by overwhelming the system.

Add it up and you've got the perfect Marxist scheme-all devised by my Columbia University college classmate Barack Obama.


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

I think you are right. But Mitt will probably not beat Obama. So lets see what Barry will do with both houses R.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Mitt will have a hard time attacking obamacare - which is why the Dems want Romney to run.

Mitt's success will be defined by the DOW and Unemployment in this summer. If it is still crap - Mitt will win easily.

Would it be great if Mitt got in and used a Recess appointment to name Newt to replace Arne Duncan as Secretary of Education, and appointed Ron Paul to chair the Fed.

No more need to have a vote to audit the Fed anymore, just stick Ron in there to go through it personally.

I can imagine the hum of the fax machines sending out resume's from all the cronies of Bernanke looking for work. mmmm the hum of electrons whizzing along the phone lines.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

dudes we haven't even had one primary and we are counting good candidates out because the liberal media is bashing them and the stupid people in Iowa believe this crap. Lets face it we don't know who will win the left will start on mitt who i liked from the beginning but I moved to newt because he won every debate and still the tiny state of Iowa has too much power it aint over till the fat lady sings . I am holding out6 till I get to vote I do hope it is a tight race and screw Iowa What is the entire population of Iowa less than LA and that isnt worth a damn screw Iowa and lets get to the big states where the vote matters


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

I am really concerned about North Korea's appointment of the "dear leader," Kim Jung Il's youngest son, to be the new leader of North Korea-a nuclear power!
After all, Kim Jung Un (pronounced Kim's young-un?) had NO military experience whatsoever before daddy made him a four-star general in the military. This is a snot-nose twerp who has never accomplished anything in his life that would even come close to military leadership: he hasn't even so much as led a Cub Scout troop, let alone coached a sports team or commanded a military platoon. So, setting that aside, next they make him the "beloved leader" of the country. Terrific!!!
Oh, crap! I'm sorry. I just remembered that we did the same thing here. We took a community organizer who has never worn a uniform and made him Commander-in-Chief-a guy who has never led anything more than an ACORN demonstration-and made him the leader of this country. Never mind.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

GREAT POINT Jim another nuclear disaster waiting to happen


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## SamuelP (Feb 26, 2011)




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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

Yea, what's the point and how far back are we going to blame everyone but Obomber?


> ?


???


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

i dont care what regan did to get the hostages home he did get them home alive and carter sat there with his thumbs up his ass doing nothing after he got some good men killed in desert eagle and eagle claw I was there i know how lame peanut boy was as a leader and obummer is worse


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Good fit with the jobs report - - - better here than the joke thread anyway:

Medical Conference

An Israeli doctor said to a medical conference, "Medicine in my country is so advanced, we can take a kidney out of one person, put it into another and have him looking for work in six weeks!"

The German doctor stood up and said, "Well medicine in my county is so advanced, we can take a lung out of one person and put it into another and have him looking for work in 4 weeks"

The Russian doctor got up and said "My country is even more advanced, we can remove half a heart from one person, put it into another and have them both looking for work in just 2 weeks!"

Not to be outdone, the American doctor stood up and addressed the 
conference, "Well", he said, "My country is so far advanced in medicine, we can take an Asshole out of Chicago , put him in the White House, and have half the country looking for work in 24 hours!"


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)




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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

I don't know about allot of things but i do know that obummer is the worst president since carter and he is worse the Mr peanut too in fact i don't think we have ever had a commie as president before.

The whole thing that kills me is the left wing wackos believe he is doing a great job with an all time low aproval rating of 21 wtf why don't we find a good reason to impeach him Oh I know why because Biden would be the pres and he is an idiot .


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

wow man you really impressed me. I am sending this to my crazy congressman and my senator who wont do ******************** about it because she loves Obama. I cant stand the left wing wackos and what they have done to ruin my home state. I want California to see the light and oust Obama he is a murder and a crook and he helped rig his first congressional election as was posted earlier in the thread. It is clear this needs to come out before the election and the masses need to hear it. I wonder why Hannity has not gone after the president for these crimes.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

The percentage of each past president's cabinet who had worked 
in the private business sector prior to their appointment to the cabinet. 
You know what the private business sector is a real-life business, not a 
government job. Here are the percentages.

T. Roosevelt…................. 38%

Taft…............................... 40%

Wilson …........................ 52%

Harding…........................ 49%

Coolidge…...................... 48%

Hoover…......................... 42%

F. Roosevelt…................ 50%

Truman…........................ 50%

Eisenhower…............. .... 57%

Kennedy…...................... 30%

Johnson…....................... 47%

Nixon…........................... 53%

Ford…............................. 42%

Carter….......................... 32%

Reagan…........................ 56%

GH Bush…...................... 51%

Clinton …....................... 39%

GW Bush…..................... 55%

Obama….................. 8%

This helps to explain the incompetence of this administration: 
only 8% of them have ever worked in private business!

That's right! Only eight percent--the least, by far, of the 
last 19 presidents! And these people are trying to tell our big 
corporations how to run their business?

How can the president of a major nation and society, the one 
with the most successful economic system in world history, stand and talk 
about business when he's never worked for one? Or about jobs when he has 
never really had one? And when it's the same for 92% of his senior staff 
and closest advisers? They've spent most of their time in academia, 
government and/or non-profit jobs or as "community organizers." They should 
have been in an employment line.


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## Hanman (Jan 6, 2012)

I'm not an Obama fan but I don't think it's fair to blame ALL of today's problems on him and his cabinet. We have been on this path for a long time. The unemployment rate really annoys me. You can pick up any newspaper in the country and there are job listings in the classifieds section. There are jobs out there. The problem is that there are too many people who want to continue to make $75 k a year to sit in an office and do basically nothing. If you're willing to swallow your pride, want less, and get your hands dirty, then there is a job for nearly everybody. Americans have become complacent.

I don't know much, but I do know the dollar is worth less and less all the time. I know that nearly every fiat currency in history gradually becomes worth less than the paper it's printed on. I know that every democracy in recorded history has collapsed after about 200 years.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Meet 2012 Democratic Challenger at the New Hampshire "Lesser Known Candidates "forum -

Vermin Supreme - - with his toothbrushing law!
Sometimes the truty is strager than fiction!

Gotta love C-Span


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

I think you all should put up or shut up and run for the precidency yourselves.

Ahh i feel better.


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Been out of pocket - did I miss anything????


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

^David, no. Same old.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

Absolutely. This is the worst president ever. Congress also needs to be changed. He (they) are turning our country into a socialistic state where government will dictate. Obamacare will mean those without health insurance, will have it whether they work or not.This will result in a cutback in medicare benefits for those already on medicare, paid for it and still paying for it. It won't affect the very poor or illegal aliens. It all started back with the public school system. When government gets involved in the private affairs of it's citizenary, socialism will creep in like a spreading cancer. It happens so secretly, that we don't see it coming until it's too late. Only lately, under Obama, have we seen it accelerate. Now people recognize the direction Obama is taking us. I doubt very much if the very rich will be affected, but positive the middle and lower classes will be merged into a new class appropiately called the mediocre class. It will mean equality within the classes and who wants that? only the lower class, inner city, underprivileged, whatever you want to call them. I'm 77, worked hard all my life, live on social security and barely getting by with the aid of my family. There are those who get everything from the government; never worked for it and live better than I do. At my age, I am grateful to have lived this long and actually look forward to leaving this world and not have to suffer under Obama's socialistic agenda. I only fear for my children and grandchildren who will feel the full force of this evil president and Congress. Like Libya, Egypt and Syria, it may be time for this country to take back our country.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Consequences


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

MrRon God Bless You sir….God Bless You


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

thanks for joining the thread Mr Ron I couldn't have said it better myself. We all need to get off our asses and vote this cancer out of office he is the worst president ever I really hoped he would be a good guy but even my black friends want him gone


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

nice video dr


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## 2eachhisown (Jan 8, 2012)

IF you think Regan was a great leader than you need to think some more WE HAVE THE BEST LEADER MONEY CAN BUY INCLUDING REGAN


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Eddie - make the distinction between leader and president.

Obviously there is partisan bias evaluating Reagan's presidency - - But as a LEADER - he was quite impressive.
Reagan was the last leader that dealt with a strong soviet Union. 
The Soviet government fell in 1991 - so Clinton/Bush2/Obama never faced any of those challenges.
You must listen to his Brandenburg gate speech in 1987 - -

"We welcome change and openness; for we believe that freedom and security go together, that the advance of human liberty can only strengthen the cause of world peace. There is one sign the Soviets can make that would be unmistakable, that would advance dramatically the cause of freedom and peace. General Secretary Gorbachev, if you seek peace, if you seek prosperity for the Soviet Union and eastern Europe, if you seek liberalization, come here to this gate. Mr. Gorbachev, open this gate. Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall"

Unions like to point to Reagan and the Air Traffic Controllers Strike as Republican Union Busting, because they like to ignore that it was Jimmy Carter that removed the right of Federal Unions to collectively bargain and strike in 1978 (Reagan took office January 1981) - but since te Unions support the Democrats - all "Timelines of horror " start in the 80s and they just ignore the guy that actually took out bargaining.
Looking at control of congress where all the laws were passed - the Democratic Party, in the elections of 1954, it was then the majority party in both houses of Congress for most of the next 40 years; the Republicans were only able to win control of the Senate for a six-year period (1981-87). The Republicans won a majority position in both houses of Congress in the elections of 1994.

As a leader with vision he accomplished a great deal and actually worked WITH Tip O'Neill in the House.
Everything that was passed under Reagan had bipartisan support - unlike Obama. Obama like Reagan should actually be working WITH the other side, instead he just points fingers when there are any amendments or push back on policies, and cries that Boehner doesn't rubber stamp his policies like Pelosi did without even reading them.

Nancy Pelosi - "We have to pass this bill to find out what's in it"....that isn't leadership


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## Porchfish (Jun 20, 2011)

Working in private business qualifies you for leadership in government. Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha Oh holy ******************** that's funny ! Is it original ?


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

I think the point is that fewer than 1 in 10 of obamas cabinet have *ever* worked outside of government.
That is scary - these guys have never been a shift supervisor at McDonalds as teenagers - - just purely academics or government.
The people who have Never held a job in private industry are unlikely to have the first clue as to how to create jobs or grow the economy - - -only recite what someone else (usually long dead) theorized that they make their students write essays on.

I agree the private industry doesn't mean Romney or Paul or formerly Cain - are natural choices - but one does hope that out of every 10 cabinet officials, more than ONE would have actually worked in industry - Met a budget - dealt with an underperforming employee abusing the Incidental Absence Policy.
Somewhere you would think that experience is important to develop solid programs to address joblessness.
But Alas - it is developed by people who have never had to compete in their lives.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

We get great laws from DC
http://www.arlnow.com/2012/01/12/cuccinelli-smells-a-rat-in-d-c/
You have to relocate rats now from DC (no killing allowed and relocate them 25 miles away….in Virginia!)

Virginia Attorney General Ken Cuccinelli called a local talk radio show on Tuesday to complain about rats in D.C. Specifically, Cuccinelli was peeved about a D.C. law - the Wildlife Protection Act - which, since March 2011, has outlawed some common pest control practices including the use of lethal traps on certain species of rats and mice (and on other wild animals that get stuck in homes).

"Last year, in its finite wisdom, the D.C. City Council passed a new law - a triumph of animal rights over human health," he told the hosts of WMAL's 'The Morning Majority' show. "Those pest control people… aren't allowed to kill the rat. They have to relocate the rat. And… that's actually not the worst part.* They cannot break up the family of the rat."*

"Oh no," one of the hosts said solemnly as another loudly gasped. But what does any of this have to do with Virginia? Cuccinelli explained that wildlife trappers might now simply take the rats they catch in D.C. into Virginia.

"Actual experts in pest control will tell you, if you don't move an animal about 25 miles, it will come back," Cuccinelli said. "So what's the solution to that? Across the river."


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

rats are pests and should be killed at least we know that much out her everyone except pelosi who want to save the marsh mouse in San Francisco bay area this nasty little rodent needs to die with the rats human health comes first screw the rats and screw the liberals that confuse rats as cute little plague carrying friends these lefty wackos are over the top mad


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## muleskinner (Sep 24, 2011)

*I think the point is that fewer than 1 in 10 of obamas cabinet have ever worked outside of government.
That is scary - these guys have never been a shift supervisor at McDonalds as teenagers - - just purely academics or government*.

Hillary Clinton - private law practice
Ken Salazar - private law practice
Tom Vilsack - private law practice
John Bryson - CEO Edison International
Hilda Solis - part time jobs working through college
Shaun Donovan - Prudential Mortgage Capital
Steven Chu - Bell Labs
Arne Duncan - professional basketball
Janet Napolitano - private law practice
Joe Biden - private law practice
Jacob Lew - private law practice
Ron Kirk - private law practice
Susan Rice - management consultant at McKinsey & Company
Alan Krueger - writer
Karen Mills - small business manager

That works out to about 2 out of 3 working outside government at some point in their adult careers. (I have to admit that your knowledge of their teenage work records is just too esoteric to be challenged.) Yeah, they're all pretty much career bureaucrats now but that only makes them indistinguishable from any other Cabinet in the last 50 years. If you want to disparage them, pointing out that there are too many damn lawyers would be more truthful.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Good point about lawyers Muleskinner -
All these claims go back to a Forbes article from 2009 "Obamas Business Blindspot
http://www.forbes.com/2009/11/24/michael-cembalest-obama-business-beltway-cabinet.html"

Politifact went back to the author to clarify after doing research much as you did:

We tracked down Cembalest to ask about his methodology. He said any effort to address the topic is heavily subjective, and he expressed regret that his work had been used for political ends, saying that it was not his intention to provide fodder for bloggers and talk show hosts.

Cembalest said that he did discount the corporate experience of the three lawyers we identified - Clinton, Vilsack and Locke - and added that he awarded nothing for Donovan, Chu or Salazar, even though we found they had a fair amount private sector experience. Cembalest acknowledged fault in missing Salazar's business background, saying he would have given him a full point if he had it to do over again. But he added that the kind of private-sector experiences Chu and Donovan had (managing scientific research and handling community development lending, respectively) did not represent the kind of private-sector business experience he was looking for when doing his study.

"*What I was really trying to get at was some kind of completely, 100 percent subjective assessment of whether or not a person had had enough control of payroll, dealing with shareholders, hiring, firing and risk-taking that they'd be in a position to have had a meaningful seat at the table when the issue being discussed is job creation," Cembalest said*.

Which brings us back to how Beck used Cembalest's data. We'll acknowledge that rating someone's degree of private-sector experience is an inexact science, and* it's true that Beck accurately relayed the information contained in Cembalest's chart*. But at PolitiFact we hold people accountable for their own words. So we rate Beck's claim False.


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## muleskinner (Sep 24, 2011)

Accurately relaying inaccurate information may be Beck's forte but it doesn't further anyone's knowledge of the facts.


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

Yes, we need a new President. I'm wishing that the young lady that wrote the following were on the ballot.

This was in the Waco Tribune Herald, Waco , TX , Nov 18, 2011

PUT ME IN CHARGE . . .
Put me in charge of food stamps. I'd get rid of Lone Star cards; no cash for Ding Dongs or Ho Ho's, just money for 50-pound bags of rice and beans, blocks of cheese and all the powdered milk you can haul away. If you want steak and frozen pizza, then get a job.

Put me in charge of Medicaid. The first thing I'd do is to get women Norplant birth control implants or tubal legations. Then, we'll test recipients for drugs, alcohol, and nicotine. If you want to reproduce or usedrugs, alcohol, or smoke, then get a job.

Put me in charge of government housing. Ever live in a military barracks? You will maintain our property in a clean and good state of repair. Your "home" will be subject to inspections anytime and possessions will beinventoried. If you want a plasma TV or Xbox 360, then get a job and your own place.
In addition, you will either present a check stub from a job each week or you will report to a "government" job. It may be cleaning the roadways of trash, painting and repairing public housing, whatever we find for you. We will sell your 22 inch rims and low profile tires and your blasting stereoand speakers and put that money toward the "common good".

Before you write that I've violated someone's rights, realize that all of the above is voluntary. If you want our money, accept our rules. Before you say that this would be "demeaning" and ruin their "self esteem," consider that it wasn't that long ago that taking someone else's money for doing absolutely nothing was demeaning and lowered self esteem.

If we are expected to pay for other people's mistakes we should at least attempt to make them learn from their bad choices. The current system rewards them for continuing to make bad choices. AND While you are on Gov't subsistence, you no longer can VOTE! Yes, that is correct. For you to vote would be a conflict of interest. You will voluntarily remove yourself from voting while you are receiving a Gov't welfare check. If you want to vote, then get a job. END

It goes to my long held belief that there should never be legislation or programs, etc. that reward anyone for doing the wrong thing (counterproductive behavior).


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## tom427cid (Aug 21, 2011)

Spot on!


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## widget65 (Jan 18, 2012)

Excellent


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

That young lady has her act together.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Thanks David Grimes for drawing our attention to a pretty radical set of rules.
The question is, how many of us support these rules, how many would support a manifesto based on these rules and how many would actually vote for a candidate (political affiliation ignored) proposing such a manifesto?
To the "common man" the "rules" are a no brainer and if enacted, would go some way to set our entitlement programs straight and also end a way of our system being abused.
Other items like illegal immigration could be dealt with in the same manner as there is nothing illegal suggested in any of these rules.
So why not DEMAND that rules like this be imposed (that is if you approve of them) instead of concerning yourself about candidate's extra-marital affairs, sexual orientation, how much tax they paid, what religion they follow, or if their significant other is sufficient to be seen as a trophy spouse and perform some non-elected government function - to name a few.
If, We the People, had the courage of our convictions and made our voice heard, we could start to put things right. However, politicians spouting hate, rumors in public forums against their fellow party members as well as the opposition, only tells you they are all some nasty SOBs that you wouldn't let your daughter marry, let alone vote for them.

People, we will only begin to get out of this awful mess if we radically change our ways and not act like sheep.
To make change you have to have the WILL to do it accept the harshness, understand it is for the greater good, and to put your country BEFORE YOU. Reject all these political deviants, they only serve themselves and their "employers".
If one candidate stood for election and adopted the "rules" as mentioned in the young lady's statements, I would, without hesitation give that candidate my vote, no matter what party (if any) they belonged to.

Ask yourself honestly, would you, citizen, care enough to do the same?


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## BobM001 (Jan 8, 2012)

You talk about "impeachable offenses"? What about the Logan Act? Watch this video. Obama responsible for 1000 deaths in Kenya

Bob


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## ed220 (Feb 9, 2009)

Speaking of lobbyists.. wasn't Obama going to eliminate them.. I remember his campaign promise but I guess he sold out like the rest of those jokers.. Point being don't elect a politician any more. Try a businessman instead. What have we got to loose at this point.


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

@Roger Clark aka Rex, Well said (and put). BIG + to courage and convictions.

I keep hoping (and keep being so disappointed) that a PERSON (male or female, D or R, young or old, etc.) will have the personal courage and personal conviction to run for office (any office, up to and including the Presidency) based on those personal convictions and sense of duty to help the people in a time of need.

No custom tailored (by others) positions that meet demographics or popular opinion. I want to see that fictitious person only flip flop when something changes and logic dictates a re-thinking (as opposed to their campaign or party advisers telling them what to think or believe). In other words, they answer to no political person or entity other than their beliefs. Nor should they be "owned" by the machine in any way. Never a lackey or a minion to get the ticket punched.

I would hope that the person has a squeaky clean background (although increasingly unfair) that can survive the rearview mirror dumpster diving of their opponents.

I would hope that person has a background that includes serious education and better than passing grades, an IQ above average, prior military and/or government service, and also a serious stint in private business (other than lawyer or money manager or banker, etc.).

I would expect that person to be prosperous (even wealthy) because someone like that would have naturally been successful. But they should have earned it.

And at some point shy of scores of millions, I would want to see that they pay their taxes (not hide it), have given back SERIOUSLY in ways that will outlive them and are more than just ridiculously strong money magnets. They should have reached the point where enough is enough and "it ain't all about the money anymore".

Yeah, I'd vote for something like that.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

thanks for the little girl post she could be a good leader but will be overran buy the masses with their welfare checks who unfortunately get to vote, too many loosers get to vote. I dont know who is going to run against aObummer but that is who will get my vote as i will do anything to get away from the socialism that is trying to invade our republic. open your eyes people this is the biggest election of our lives as i saw a great bumper sticker the said vote for obama wtf the world ends in 2012 any way


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

If we look to the answer as to why for so many years we 
achieved so much, prospered as no other people on earth, it was 
because here in this land we unleashed the energy and individual 
genius of man to a greater extent than has ever been done before. 
Freedom and the dignity of the individual have been more avail-
able and assured here than in any other place on earth. The price 
for this freedom at times has been high, but we have never been 
unwilling to pay that price. It is no coincidence that our present 
troubles parallel and are proportionate to the intervention and 
intrusion in our lives that result from unnecessary and excessive 
growth of government. It is time for us to realize that we are too 
great a nation to limit ourselves to small dreams. We're not, as 
some would have us believe, doomed to an inevitable decline. 
I *do not *believe in a fate that will fall on us no matter what we 
do. *I do *believe in a fate that will fall on us if we do nothing.

Reagans 1981 inaugural address


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

DrDirt
Could anything be more true!


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## yank (Feb 1, 2007)

The start of the collapse started long before Bush. Think about the Carter era.. No one president can be blamed for it all. Carter, Reagan, both Bush's and Clinton all took part in the housing collapse. Ordering banks to make risky loans to unqualifed ppl, by aiming to give ppl the American Dream of owning a home. 
Many ppl purchased homes well above their pay grade, with interest only loans, and ajustable rate mortgage loans. and 5yr loans with ballon payment at the end. 
This foreigner in office, IS fundamentally changing this country and putting us into a socialist society. He has no other choice, he doesn't make the choices, other do. He is only a puppet..

Alabama and 5 other states have stated that if he doesn't prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he is American Born Citizen, he will not be on the ballots in Nov.


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## S4S (Jan 22, 2011)

Las Vegas betting odds on the 2012 U.S. Presidential election show the incumbent as a heavy favorite
to be reelected ; the odds : -200 .










If you want to bet on a possible opponent, at this early stage , and are looking at the prospect of a somewhat
improbable but, nevertheless , large pay out , the front runner seems to be Mitt Romney . Odds : + 1000









Didn't the derivative markets give some folks more than a few headaches in 2008 ?
Well, apparently Nadex thinks it's time to cut themselves a piece of the Vegas and British
Pie , or 'action' ,so to speak . It will be very interesting to see the ruling that is forthcoming 
on their efforts at moving the American markets into the High-Roller ( and taxable ) venue of 
elections betting .  Nadex ,click here


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

So Warren Buffet has our best interests in taxes and such at heart?
Here is warren buffet wishing all of China an even better Year of the Dragon, on the Chinese version of "Ryan Seacrest New Year Gala" and he whips ou the ukulele to celebrate with them and sing 'workin on the rail road'
AND not this is MSNBC - the Obama network

http://bottomline.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/01/23/10215682-china-celebrates-new-year-with-a-little-help-from-warren-buffett

American billionaire Warren Buffett appeared as a special guest on a popular Chinese Lunar New Year variety show this weekend-strumming a ukulele.

Buffett sang the folk song "I've Been Working On The Railroad" in the video posted on state broadcaster CCTV's "Spring Festival Gala" website, with a model railroad set as the backdrop.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)




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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

After three years, it's time to admit President Obama has failed
By Peter Morici

January 24, 2012: President Barack Obama delivers the State of the Union address as Vice President Joe Biden and House Speaker John Boehner of Ohio listen in the U.S. Capitol in Washington.
In his State of the Union address Tuesday, President Obama hammered away on two resounding themes-fairness and the economy.
Both of them rang hollow from a president who has failed on the job. 
He has not kept his promise to get the economy going again, and inequities in income and opportunities have hardened during his tenure. Scratch the surface of his largely reworked proposals, and too much political opportunism and hypocrisy emerges.
Once again, he promised to tax the wealthy and lambasted oil companies, and offered the vision of an economy where every American has a decent shot at success through education and hard work. Yet, too many of his tax proposals are intended to punish his opponents and protect his friends, and his education proposals simply won't help the unemployed if the economy is creating too few new jobs each month.

The big fairness problem with taxes is that wage and salary incomes are taxed at much higher effective rates than capital gains and carried interest in partnerships-the latter include the income managing partners and employees receive for running private equity firms and hedge funds.
Mr. Obama's minimum tax for millionaires would punish mom and pop businesses that create so many of the new jobs, as well as raise taxes on capital gains and carried interest. 
For the former reason, such a tax simply won't pass the Republican House. 
Doing more to tax investment income would surely do more to upset lots of Democrats and Wall Street financiers, and consequently, the president won't do much to surgically fix that problem.
Mr. Obama wants to take tax breaks away from oil companies, give those to high tech companies and leave carried interest giveaways in place for Wall Street. 
Yet, it is not an accident that oil executives are usually Republicans, and high tech and financial executives provide the largest sums to Democratic campaign coffers and political action committees.
Sadly though, oil companies, in so many ways, have been blocked by President Obama from developing domestic oil, building pipelines, and creating lots of jobs in construction, steel and other building materials. 
Meanwhile, Apple and high-tech companies are champion outsourcers, and Wall Street too much specializes these days in downsizing American factories and financing foreign investment.
The president played to the middle class with high words, while offering to punish his opponents and reward his friends-the economy be damned.
Once again, President Obama promised to beef up education-train 2 million workers at community colleges for high tech jobs even though the economy is not even creating 250,000 manufacturing jobs each year. 
He wants to send more young people to college but a legion of new graduates during his three year tenure remain underemployed-unable to start meaningful careers because stimulus, regulation and industrial policies, championed by Mr. Obama have largely failed to fire up growth.
The problem with jobs is demand for workers not supply. 
The trade deficits on oil and with China send consumer dollars and create employment abroad without returning to buy U.S. goods and create jobs for Americans.
President Obama says he's been tough on China and will get tougher-but even he agrees China's undervalued currency is the big problem. He promised to forcefully address it as a candidate in 2008, has warned Chinese leaders he can take action if they don't, but he never acts.
On oil, he brags imports are down but that's mostly because the economy is slow. Too many Americans don't have a job to get to each morning, and too many can't even afford to fill tanks for a Sunday drive.
After three years, it's time to admit this president is a great orator and skilled politician but as a national leader, he has failed.
Mr. Obama was elected to turn the economy around but hasn't, and it's time for a change.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

The State of the Union was frustrating - 
What he said has no relation to what he has done for the past 3 years.

"I am directing the Sec. of the Interior to open public lands to oil and natural gas" Really? That hasn't been the mode so far, on "brown Energy"

Now Last night Barry says Fracking is not just good it will last us a hundred years - and that the government is the one that taught private industry how to perform these complex gas extractions.

Or the doublespeak - - lets get rid of all the loopholes for corporations…..and Lets offer INCENTIVES to bring jobs back…..then laments that Our Corporate taxes are too high compared to other industrialized nations!

Or he borrowed from the santorum campaign the tax break strategy for Manufacturing businesses.

Then lets have the states Mandate that Kids stay in school til 18

Then how we need to be the great leaders at home in manufacturing the BEST products and we Cannot be left on the sideline in science. YET…..who shut down NASA manned Space in favor of just buying rides???
Who just awarded the military Training Aircraft contract to Embraer in BRAZIL while Hawker/Beechcraft will now have to Lay off 1200 workers in Wichita Kansas after losing this contract.
http://madeinusanews.com/2012/01/09/hawker-beechcraft-denied-big-air-force-contract-in-favor-of-brazilian-company-with-soros-connections/

Does our president actually listen to his own Bull********************?


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Obama does not care, his agenda is to DESTROY the American way of life.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

I am a bit upset that cr1 has left this site to go where republicans are treated as well as left wing crazy's. you all know who i am talking about they flagged his posts constantly while they plaid unfair calling names and bashing the republicans. when even a blind dog can see what Obama has done and wants to do he wants a European socialist Communist state. communism is the enemy of our way of life. I watched the presidents approval climb 7 points after the state of the union address this inspired the sheep to the bases and they fell at his feet in awe . when is reality he is destroying our country be seen by the voters. 7 states have said they will not have him on the ballot unless he proves once and for all that he in a natural born American which i doubt. still this guy is a Chicago mobster and deserves to be walked off the grounds and removed from office for killing American citizens. and last night Leon Panetta said we are currently in several country's in shooting wars well i didn't see a declaration of war from the empty suit and git-mo is still open and Obama didn't raise taxes on the very rich like he said he would and in fact he hasn't kept any campaign promises the only good thing he did was assassinate Osama Bin Laden and that was an order to kill an unarmed man because they cant bring one terrorist to trial in 4 years after saying the trials would be in new york not one trial are we just waiting for them all to die before we get justice. I read somewhere on a wacko website that Osama is alive and in the us and they killed the wrong guy and said it was osama and that there is no proof it was osama I don't know about that but i do know it was an execution and Obama will kill again to stay in office thank god he cant change the constitution. I pray for a republican president congress and senate please pray with me and vote this ass out of office.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

hello right wing friends how about checking in if your still usinfgm the lj site


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

I am with you Lance


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

we are looking a little thin we must not let them put us to sleep all they want is us to fail to vote no apathy each conservative must get the vote out and do it right away.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Still cooking -
Scary that this is the graduating Youth Vote…..

For VP you get "Bush" Bin Laden and Bill Clinton….
53 stars on the flag
Canada borders the US….. "no wait Canada is a state"


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)




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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

how true


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

Still here buddy. I've been out of the country for the last week.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

glad your ok jim i was getting g worried they had chased you off too I know several people are looking for a conservatives only woodworking site I have been looking but for the most part i am here for two threads anyway and now some guy is trying to kill the handplanes thread I dont know what it is about people on the left fringe that cant leave people alone they wine till i am sick of hearing about their wants they need to get a life or start their own thread


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

I'm still watching all the literary "vomit" that's posted by the same morons day after day. And this website continues to allow it.
Many of the top crafts folks have had enough and just don't post anymore, and yet the moderators continue to allow it.
The inmates are running the asylum.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

i know your right about them i simply try to avoid them they are not worth a minute of my time are any of you guys assisting a campaign I have joined newts campaign i pray the tide turns as i have issues with mitt


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

I liked the joke Dick Morris told - -

A Conservative, a Moderate and a Liberal walk into a bar

The bartender looks up and says "Hi Mitt"


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## muleskinner (Sep 24, 2011)

I'd be interested in the issues with Mitt that make Newt a more attractive candidate.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

well i found out it was mitt who went after and trumped up the allegations against Cain and this is dirty politics he lost me by doing that i am sick of dirty politics he also funded the attacks on newt trying to get his ex wife to complain about him etc he even ried to get newts kids to turn on him a major character flaw next came his healthcare bill it is basicly Obummer care for his state not cool then Newt is a Regan conservative smaller government reduced taxes reduced spending a strong military closed boarders even tighter than Regan on this issue it is time we get a real conservative in the white house Mitt is not that he had me at first because he looks presidential but he is flawed and a vote for Mitt may as well be a vote for Obummer they both are socialists I want the us to remain a republic and with Newt we get the new contract with America the same kind of thing that brought prosperity under Clinton we need Newt


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## muleskinner (Sep 24, 2011)




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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

ok you lost me there muleskinner I dont know who that is or what your trying to say


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Government Stimulus

"Three contractors are bidding to fix a broken fence at the White House. One is from Chicago , another is from Tennessee , and the third is from Montana.

All three go with a White House official to examine the fence. The Montana contractor takes out a tape measure and does some measuring, then works some figures with a pencil. "Well," he says, "I figure the job will run about …$900. That's $400 for materials, $400 for my crew and $100 profit for me."

The Tennessee contractor also does some measuring and figuring, then says, "I can do this job for $700. That's $300 for materials, $300 for my crew and $100 profit for me.

"The Chicago contractor doesn't measure or figure, but leans over to the White House official and whispers, "$2,700." The official, incredulous, says, "You didn't even measure like the other guys. How did you come up with such a high figure?"The Chicago contractor whispers back, "$1000 for me, $1000 for you, and we hire the guy from Tennessee to fix the fence." "Done!" replies the government official. And that, my friends, is how the Government Stimulus plan worked."

This has been this way a long time- - - - good example of the need for term limits


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

we have term limits for president why not for congress


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## muleskinner (Sep 24, 2011)

*ok you lost me there muleskinner I dont know who that is or what your trying to say
*

That is Inigo Montoya and what I'm trying to say is that if you think Mitt Romney is a socialist you're misinformed as to the meaning of the word. It's kind of like calling Donald Trump humble or Newt Gingrich faithful.

I'd describe Mitt as a capitalist but you're man Newt seems to prefer "predatory corporate raider. Either way, pretty much the antithesis of a socialist.


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## BobM001 (Jan 8, 2012)

The "socialist" action that Mitt Romney can take credit for was passing the state health care system that Obamacare was inspired by. Mitt didn't dream it up. That was done by the LIBERAL DEMOCRATS of Mass. But Mitt could have vetoed it. Like he said he vetoed a bunch of other nonsensical legislation. But he didn't. So THAT makes him just as "socialist" as those who engineered it.

"Socialism works until you run out of other people's money." - Margaret Thatcher
WE ARE OUT OF EVERYONE'S MONEY!


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Well Obozo is in Election mode - 
Now he is all abou decreasing corporate taxes for those "evil Corporations"..... (that hire people)

Washington (CNN)-The Treasury Department will unveil President Barack Obama's corporate tax reform plan Wednesday-a framework that would reduce the overall rate paid by corporations, a senior administration official told CNN.

The president's tax plan is intended to "enhance American competitiveness by simplifying the tax code and eliminating dozens of tax loopholes and subsidies, incentivizing job creation and investment here at home and lowering the business rate while broadening the tax base," the official said.

The proposal calls for lowering the overall corporate tax rate from 35% to 28%, and the effective rate for manufacturing to 25%.

The official, who laid out the plan's broad framework for CNN, said the proposal is essential to fixing a system that is "uncompetitive, unfair, and inefficient."

He is now all about efficiency of government…. I am starting to feel all warm and fuzzy….LOL


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Amusing that the Repubs are vaunted by the left as the ones who are anti gay marraige…. Yet here is Barry for his MTV interview during Prop 8 debate. Sounds no different than Romney, Santorum and Gingrich on gay Marraige….But he does have a better singing voice….

http://media.mtvnservices.com/mgid:uma:video:mtv.com:314215/cp~vid%3D314215%26uri%3Dmgid%3Auma%3Avideo%3Amtv.com%3A314215

Get More: <a


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Not to get things going but Obama's corporate tax reduction and eliminating loopholes is intended to generate at least 10% more in tax revenue. This tells me that it is going to be a smoke an mirrors thing of "I'm reducing taxes, I understand what you need" while corporate growth is stifled. This guy is good - for what we will see!

The premise for the "loopholes" was to promote the activity. Interest deductions were to promote borrowing, when the borrowing got too high, the deduction was eliminated (and they wanted the revenue that was being lost to the deduction). Now they are complaining that people are not borrowing and are paying their debt - what were they expecting? Mortgage interest is deductable to promote buying a house. In many countries, houses are not financed, they are bought outright. If the deduction were not there, many people could not afford the payments. As the mortgage gets paid off, the deduction goes away making the refund get a lot smaller. The amount deducted from the paycheck should almost be a wash if it were not for your itemized deductions.

Now that almost half the people in the USA do not pay taxes, where 40 years ago 85% paid the tax bill, these people don't want to pay - they actually want more than what was deducted - creating an additional drain on revenue. This is the wrong direction. Everyone should pay their fair share - whether you make $100.00 or 100 million. If your 100 million is employing people, you are still contributing to the tax bill because those people you hire are paying taxes - that is the purpose of the deductions - to propmote hiring and risking your money to make your company grow.

This concept seems to be lost.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

half the people in the USA do not pay taxes

Only 62% of the population are between the ages of 18 and 64. 
25% of the population is under 18.
Roughly 30% of 18-24 year olds are enrolled in college.

The point of the news articles is that the tax pool is smaller, not that half of Americans are lazy parasites.


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Ok - half the wage earners--


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

What is amusing is that basically the "proposal" from the president is actually the RYAN PLAN from the Republicans.
For Corporations - they have said lets go to a lower rate and have everyone pay in.
Rather than GE making 15 billion and pay a big fat ZERO in taxes.

The left loves to talk about oil subsidies -
These Subsidies are just loopholes in the tax system that apply to ALL BUSINESSES.

•They are all tax "breaks," or earnings that oil companies get to keep, not money paid out from the US Treasury.
•The amount of earnings not collected in taxes is about $4.3 billion per year-about 0.2% of this year's deficit and enough to fund about 10 hours of current US government spending.
•A full $3.55 billion of that amount (82%) is due to the way taxes are treated for all industries or manufacturers. To change these tax laws only for oil companies would require singling them out among all industries for special mistreatment. (I'm not a lawyer, but that sounds like a bill of attainder to me, something our Constitution forbids.)
•The only tax in which the oil industry seems to get special treatment compared to other industries is intangible drilling costs. The amount of that subsidy? That would be $0.78 billion per year-enough to fund less than two hours of federal spending in 2011, and not even half the amount we are lending a foreign-owned and state-owned oil company for drilling offshore Brazil.

The above tax "breaks" explain how much tax revenue is not collected from all oil companies. How much is collected?

When Exxon released its first quarter results for 2011. The number grabbing the headlines was Exxon's profit: $10.65 billion in a single quarter. The number not given quite as much exposure was the taxes it paid in that same quarter: $8 billion, or 42% of income before taxes.

I agree with the mods to the tax code - nobody needs these special breaks -
I post the numbers becase it has been a popular pinata of the left because the numbers are so big. That becomes a problem, back when there were dozens of companies rather than a few (6) big conglomerates it was harder to point at individual companies.

Now with sky high oil prices - and such a concentration of cash flow - retail taxes become like comparing Billy Bobs Bait shop to Cabelas or Bass Pro Shop.

We instead lump the companies into a pool based on atention grabbing headlines and just say Big Oil, and ignore that the so called subsidies are NOT actually OIL subsidies, but general business tax code for the US.


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

And in Maryland, I heard that our govenor that want a 6% gas tax - thats over $2.00 a gallon.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

ON JANUARY 1, 2012, THE US GOVERNMENT IS REQUIRING EVERYONE TO HAVE DIRECT DEPOSIT FOR SS CHECKS.

WONDER WHY?

Subject: HR 4646
Be sure to read entire explanation
Watch for this AFTER November elections; remember this BEFORE you VOTE, in case you think Obama is looking out for your best interest.

A 1% tax on all bank transactions is what HR 4646 calls for. 
Do you receive a paycheck,

or a retirement check from Social Security or a pension fund and have it direct deposit?? Well guess what … It looks as if Obama wants to tax it 1% !!!

This bill was put forth by Rep. Chaka Fattah (D-PA).

YES, that is 1% tax on all bank transactions - HR 4646, every time it goes in and every time money goes out.

Ask your congressperson to vote NO.

FORWARD THIS TO EVERYONE YOU KNOW!

1% tax on all bank transactions ~ HR 4646 - ANOTHER NEW OBAMA TAX SLIPPED IN WHILE WE WERE ASLEEP. Checked this on snopes, it's true! Check it out yourself ~ HR 4646.

President Obama's finance team is recommending a one percent (1%) transaction fee (TAX). Obama's plan is to sneak it in after the November elections to keep it under the radar.

This is a 1% tax on all transactions at any financial

institution - banks, credit unions, savings and loans, etc. Any deposit you make, or even a transfer within your own bank from one account to another, will have a 1% tax charged.

If your paycheck or your Social Security or whatever is direct deposit, it will get a 1% tax charged for the transaction.

If your paycheck is $1000, then you will pay Obama $10 just for the privilege of depositing your paycheck in your bank. Even if you hand carry your paycheck or any check in to your bank for a deposit, 1% tax will be charged.

You receive a $5,000 stock dividend from your broker, Obama takes $50 just to allow you to deposit that check in the bank.

If you take $1,000 cash to deposit at your bank, 1% tax will be charged.

Mind you, this is from the man who promised that, if you make under $250,000 per year, you will not see one penny of new tax. Keep your eyes and ears open, you will be amazed at what you learn about this guy's under-the-table moves to increase the number of ways you are taxed.

Oh, and by the way, if you receive a refund from the IRS next year and you have it direct deposited or you walk in to deposit that check, you guessed it. You will pay a 1% charge of that money just for putting it in your bank.
Remember, any money, cash, check or whatever, no matter where it came from, you will pay a 1% fee if you put it in the bank.

Some will say, oh well, it's just 1%. Are you kidding me? It's a 1% tax increase across the board. Remember, once the tax is there, they can also raise it at will. And if anyone protests, they will just say, "Oh, that's not really a tax, it's a user

fee"!

Think this is no big deal? Go back and look at the transactions you made from last year's banking statements. Then add the total of all those transactions and deduct 1%. Still think it's no big deal?


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

ok jim great find this guy has to go


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

Not to change the subject but there is a thread that was started by the Lap Dog titled "Anti-Republican cartoons" in which anyone who disagrees is obviously blocked from responding.
Mikey posted a video showing the average I.Q. by state. (Go watch it for its total B.S.)
Well I looked it up and sure enough, it's totally bogus.
Below is the actual un-manipulated report. Shows you how the left distorts facts.

McDaniel's Estimated Average IQ Score by State

1. MASSACHUSETTS….....................................104.3
2. NEW HAMPSHIRE….......................................104.2

3. NORTH DAKOTA….........................................103.8

4. VERMONT….................................................103.8

5. MINNESOTA…..............................................103.7

6. MONTANA….................................................103.4

7. MAINE…......................................................103.4

8. IOWA….......................................................103.2

9. CONNECTICUT…............................................103.1

10. WISCONSIN…..............................................102.9

11. KANSAS…...................................................102.8

12. SOUTH DAKOTA….........................................102.8

13. NEW JERSEY….............................................102.8

14. WYOMING….................................................102.4

15. NEBRASKA….................................................102.3

16. WASHINGTON….............................................101.9

17. VIRGINIA…...................................................101.9

18. OHIO…........................................................101.8

19. INDIANA…....................................................101.7

20. COLORADO….................................................101.6

21. PENNSYLVANIA…...........................................101.5

22. IDAHO….......................................................101.4

23. OREGON…....................................................101.2

24. UTAH…........................................................101.1

25. MISSOURI…...................................................101.0

26. NEW YORK…..................................................100.7

27. MICHIGAN…...................................................100.5

28. DELAWARE…..................................................100.4

29. NORTH CAROLINA…..........................................100.2

30. TEXAS…........................................................100.0

31. ILLINOIS….......................................................99.9

32. MARYLAND…....................................................99.7

33. RHODE ISLAND…...............................................99.5

34. KENTUCKY….....................................................99.4

35. OKLAHOMA…....................................................99.3

36. ALASKA….........................................................99.0

37. WEST VIRGINIA…...............................................98.7

38. SOUTH CAROLINA…............................................98.4

39. FLORIDA…........................................................98.4

40. GEORGIA…........................................................98.0

41. TENNESSEE…....................................................97.7

42. ARKANSAS…......................................................97.5

43. ARIZONA…........................................................97.4

44. NEVADA….........................................................96.5

45. ALABAMA…........................................................95.7

46. NEW MEXICO…...................................................95.7

47. HAWAII…...........................................................95.6

48. CALIFORNIA….....................................................95.5

49. LOUISIANA….......................................................95.3

50. MISSISSIPPI….....................................................94.2


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## muleskinner (Sep 24, 2011)

First, HR 4646 died in committee in 2010.

Second, don't you guys ever research any of this stuff before you get your panties in a twist?


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

Muleskinner: If I heard everything that they heard, and believed it without checking … I'm sure I'd share their anger.

But I don't.
And I don't.

Facts. They're what's for breakfast.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

wow i am glad that died in committee cause i was getting pissed but it does show the kind of underhanded ******************** the left wing will try and yes they tried to pass it that's enough for me and i don't wear Panties


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

I wanted to make sure that you guys took the time to come to my website and read a few of our articles and be sure to start your collection of delta grams the d/l is free and any one can do it for nothing save the pdfs to your hard disk and enjoy the site http://thisoldworkshop.com


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

+1 on the Delta Grams.

Mikey did do a good job on that bench. And his barrister book case is really nice except for a very few minor details IMO (cheap feet, common Lowe's "carving" applique, and no leaded / beveled glass). Other than that…

It's okay he blocked me from his posts, but he can't block me from the others. I will give him plenty of rations whenever he asks for them… or appears wanting.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Remember back in the election and Obamacare debate when Barry "floated the idea" that of forcing private insurance to pick up the VA tab for care of veterans?
That was quickly shot down then.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/veteranshealth.asp

Now it is back with subtle twists under the new budget - Part of the plan for reduced Defense speding, Obama wants to reduce DOD by hammering Tricare -

http://www.armytimes.com/news/2012/02/military-tricare-costs-would-jump-in-budget-plan-022312w

http://freebeacon.com/trashing-tricare/
The Defense Department's proposed 2013 budget calls for annual enrollment fees for retirees in Tricare Prime to rise next year by 30 percent to 78 percent, from the current $460 or $520 for families to between $600 and $820, depending on military retirement income.

"Working-age retirees" - those younger than 65 - also would pay annual enrollment fees for Tricare Standard and Extra: $70 for an individual and $140 for a family. These would be the first enrollment fees for Standard and Extra in Tricare history.

Deductibles for Standard and Extra also would rise by $10 for individuals and $20 for families.

Medicare-eligible retirees also would contribute more to their care: The budget calls for annual Tricare for Life enrollment fees of $35 to $115 per individual, depending on retirement income. A retiree and a spouse covered under TFL would each have to pay the enrollment fee.

Of course this is because Obama is such a supporter of Military families.
By the way the article mentions that it is ONLY the military that are affected - *all civilian DOD employee benefits are UNTOUCHED.*


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Nice Parody of the movie "The Artist" now starring Barry


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

More Success from Government Motors
http://www.freep.com/article/20120302/BUSINESS0101/120302035/Volt-production-on-hold-for-5-weeks?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE

*GM stopping Volt Production and Laying off 1300 Workers*

General Motors has told 1,300 employees at its Detroit Hamtramck that they will be temporarily laid off for five weeks as the company halts production of the Chevrolet Volt and its European counterpart, the Opel Ampera.

"Even with sales up in February over January, we are still seeking to align our production with demand," said GM spokesman Chris Lee. Lee said employees were told Thursday that production would put on hold from March 19 to April 23.

The Chevrolet Volt, an extended-range electric car, is both a political lightning rod and a symbol of the company's technological capability.

Chevrolet sold 1,023 Volts in the U.S. in February and has sold 1,626 so far this year.

In 2011, Chevrolet sold 7,671 Volts, but fell short of its initial goal of 10,000.

*GM had planned to expand production of its Volt plug-in hybrid to 60,000 this year, with 45,000 earmarked for the U.S*

Another fine example of the Government decideing what people should buy.
I love the part where the planned expansion to 60,000 units but only sell 1100/month!!!
Sounds like a solid business model LOL

Latest Solyndra scandal….


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

Ken Langone: US Faces 13% 'Hardcore Unemployment' Because of Obama's 'Punitive' View of Business
Wednesday, 07 Mar 2012 07:32 AM
By Forrest Jones

Billionaire investor Ken Langone warns that the United States faces "hardcore unemployment" as high as 13 percent because President Barack Obama's "punitive" view of business is dividing the country by punishing those who work hard and succeed with excess regulations.

The Home Depot co-founder told CNBC he is "bothered by the fact that we aren't creating a massive number of jobs in America. I think we are going to have a hardcore unemployment in America, and what do you do about that?"

Langone says the unemployment rate is higher than the official figure of 8.3 percent because of the many people who have given up looking. If those people were included, the unemployment rate could be as high as 13 percent, he said.
Editor's Note: Google Banned This Video But You Can Watch it Here

"To me it's purchasing power. If they can't get a job they don't have the money to spend," he said.

Langone also said the Obama administration has a "punitive" view of business.

"You don't lift someone else up by tearing me down. I take umbrage with talking about wealthy people and that we're takers," Langone tells CNBC.

"We're at a point in time when…we're creating regulations to punish people. When I'm getting punished for doing something, guess what happens? I'm gonna do nothing."

That means hiring will remain at bay, says Langone, the chairman of Invemed Associates.

"We've got a lot of work ahead of us. We've got to worry about the deficit. We've got to worry about restoring respect for business in America. Let's not look at the jobs that government creates. That costs money. Let's look at the jobs that businesses create. That generates money."

Langone said he sees "a lot of opportunity" despite the market's declines "but I'm a long-term investor. I think there can be some bumps along the way."

He said he'd "buy the banks" because they've "cleaned their act up" and have low valuations.

Meanwhile, don't expect unemployment rates to improve should gasoline prices stay high, other experts say.

"If oil prices stay where they are at the end of February [close to $107 a barrel], it means gasoline prices in April and May will be about $4.25 a gallon nationwide," says Mark Zandi, chief economist at Moody's Analytics, according to the Christian Science Monitor.

"If we stayed there for the year, it would shave about 0.5 [percent] off of gross domestic product growth."

Such a scenario would translate into a loss of 500,000 jobs.

"It basically means we don't make any progress on reducing unemployment this year," Zandi says.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

well my friends its time for the republicans to get the right guy in office and that man is newt he is now endorsed by cain and cain will be in his cabinet this is a must win or i hate to say it but this country will colapse into the depest depression we have ever seen in the nations history to only thing keping us afloat here in california is a large amount of ag jobs which are going to suffer badly this year as farmers were told las week they would only get 1 quarter of their allotment of h2o this is the end of california who already lost the employment of 257 large companies this year including EBAY WHO HAS MOVED FORM HERE TO AUSTIN texas this makes california loose over 50k jobs since july and unemployment in the golden state sits at 15 percent fresno county the uer sits a 33.9 not even the worst in the state if america is in trouble california is doomed this is a very tough day for us as we are about to decide if we are going to give up on the american dream in california and move away to a state with a better economy I am sick of the way life has declined under Obama we will stay at least through june but we are seriously looking at leaving this state and moving away this will require my wife to find a new job in a new state or country we have discussed Scotland Texas New York and Oregon which ever state we move to must have the right stuff it must have good tax laws employers must have good benefits and I will need license resoprosity as will my wife need to be able to teach in that state


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## TimmyP (Sep 13, 2011)

Well dude50, I disagree with you about newt…not that I'm offering up an alternative, I'm just saying not Newt. Nor Mitt, or Rick, and maybe just a little, Ron. We definitely need a better candidate to run; whoever the Repubs field, he's gonna get trounced by Bawacko Bammy. Which is unfortunate.

Like the post from jim c, with the article with ken legone says, why should I produce anything, if it's going to be taxed to pay for people who don't produce anything? (BTW, this is the basis of Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged").

We've certainly hit an extremely bad time in our country; I see it as just as an extension of the hippie culture of the sixties: they couldn't get socialism started then, so they undercut everything with "political correctness", and now, if you dare speak against their agenda, they have multiple names to call you out.

Good luck on moving away, if you do. Maybe also think about Pennsylvania; I hear they don't tax retirement income there.


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## TimmyP (Sep 13, 2011)

So I just quickly read a news article, about a woman in New york who was arrested for running a prostitution ring "for the rich". What? She should be running a prostitution ring for the poor????


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

welcome to the thread timmy I have to stick with my man i was in mitts camp but when i found out he paid tose women to lie about cain i was hurt that my man was a dirty player i knew he wasnt cool but a cheater i cant and wont vote for a lair and a cheet so to me its newt he may have done a few things wrong but he was the man behind the contract with America and thus the success that Clinton did have was newt so we need some more sucess Obama has nothing but the uneducated and they are dumb so i don't care and i hope they stay home on election day if Obama is re elected the nation will fall or someone will get sick of him and they will make a marter of him Obama is my age too young to be a hippie but his advisers were hippies


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

If you could take all three Newt, Mit, and Rick, throw out the stupid of all three, you would have a the ideal candidate. I have issues with each and the points are different for each.

I like Newt but I don't see him pulling it out, too far back. I think he lost me when he said that all the illegals in this country would stay. Mit doesn't strike me as conservative enough and a bit wishy-washy - don't know why but he does. Rick has some great ideas but like Newt, may be too far back to catch up.

THe news in the DC area says (including McCain) that Newt and Rick should bow out and let Mit run with it. If the Dems want Mit to run, this is not good. The Dems have something on Mit and aren't sayin it or they are scared of Rick.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Anybody, i mean anybody but Obama.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

i am praying for newt maybe it will go tothe convention floor and newt will win


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

*Altered flag with Obama image creates outrage with veterans* 3-14-2012

An American flag with President Obama's image in place of the stars flew over a Florida county's Democrat headquarters long enough to enrage local veterans who called the altered banner "a disgrace." 
Lake County Democratic Party officials took down the flag, which flew just below a standard Old Glory on the flagpole outside headquarters in Tavares following complaints by local veterans. But merely taking it down wasn't enough for several local veterans, who said they fought for the flag Betsy Ross made famous, not one with a politician on it.

"It's absolutely disrespectful," Jim Bradford, a 71-year-old veteran who participated in the Bay of Pigs Invasion told FoxNews.com. "It's totally ridiculous. To put somebody's picture there, to me, it's a disgrace to do that." 
"It's absolutely disrespectful," Jim Bradford, a 71-year-old veteran who participated in the Bay of Pigs Invasion told FoxNews.com. "It's totally ridiculous. To put somebody's picture there, to me, it's a disgrace to do that." 
Bradford, an organizer with the Veterans Memorial at Fountain Park in Leesburg, Fla., snapped photos of the flag and distributed them to fellow veterans and friends. By late afternoon, he and several other veterans delivered a copy of the federal flag code to Nancy Hurlbert, chairwoman of the Lake County Democratic Party.
"We read that to her, but she would not accept that," Bradford said. "The discussion finally got a little bit heated." 
The flag, which had been flying for several months without complaint and is available online for $12.95, was later removed by Hurlbert.
Bradford said Hurlbert apologized for the incident, but did not offer any promises that it wouldn't fly again.
"What really upsets me is that the flag had apparently been flying for months and no one had done anything about it," Bradford said. "I've got no hard feelings toward [Hurlbert], but people will be driving by there to make sure it doesn't go up again." 
Hurlbert said Tuesday's incident was the first time anyone had complained about the flag, which she received as a gift two months ago.
"It leads me to believe that it's not about the flag," she told FoxNews.com. "Certain elements cannot accept Barack Obama as president." 
Hurlbert said she intends to contact an attorney regarding the matter and remained non-committal as to whether she'll fly the flag again.
"I won't say no and I won't say yes," she said. "We want to find out what our legal rights are." 
Meanwhile, Jay Agg, communications director for AMVETS, told FoxNews.com that the American flag should never be altered.
"While we are pleased the flag in question has since been removed from public display, the reported fact that it had flown for months without protest is a clear indication that we have much work to do in educating the public of the importance of protecting our flag," Agg wrote in an email. "This issue is especially important to AMVETS' members, the men and women who have proudly worn our nation's uniform and served under her flag." 
The final insult to veterans? The flag is made in China.


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## HawkDriver (Mar 11, 2011)

Good grief. It doesn't matter what side of the isle you sit on, someone's face(regardless of who it is) on the flag should be heeded as disrespectful by all and is against US code for that matter.

*"I won't say no and I won't say yes," she said. "We want to find out what our legal rights are." *This person should do some research, seems cut and dry to me:

United States Code Title 4 Chapter 1 Section 8

"The flag should never have placed upon it, nor on any part of it, nor attached to it any mark, insignia, letter, word, figure, design, picture, or drawing of any nature."

Nuff' said.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

I thought I would let the article speak for itself Hawk.

I had no commentary on this despicable act by a party official who certainly should know better.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

You think the Dems believe the laws apply to the?


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## muleskinner (Sep 24, 2011)




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## langski93 (Dec 31, 2008)

We absolutely need a new President. Let's bring back the Cheney Admisistration with George, Rummey, Condi, and Alberto. They will set things right.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

id rather see a tea bag on the flag than a man who is not even an American that ******************** with his face reminds me of housain Saddam housain well they have the same name so he probably thinks his face should be on the damn flag just like Saddam I pray we see the light the madness must stop we must either win by popular vote or we must oust this president through the courts for the murders he has committed

just for the record though the tea bag don't belong on my flag either and I am not a tea bagger I am a Regan republican like Newt


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

The Teaparty flag is wrong.

I would think that the DNC Florida headquarters would put a little more thought into what they display

But one wrong doesn't justify another.
Maybe some believe the Obama flag can fly over the whitehouse, just so long as someone can find an equally stupid picture from a different political group on the internet??? I DON"T THINK SO

As O'reilly admonishes - don't use others peopls bad behaviour as justification for new transgressions.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

The flag should be presented with honor and dignity always, regardless of politics, else you piss on the graves of those men and women who gave their lives so we can sit here and express our opinions freely.

Period.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

I want to thank *"The Dude"* for keeping this rational, coherent, logical, factual, and moderate.

Bless you.


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## DaveHuber (Nov 12, 2009)

My head spins!!
I admit I scanned the thread, but did someone just lament that Herman Cain was a cheater, so that left only Newt G as a viable choice?
Has this person overlooked the circumstance of the other Mrs. Gs?
And the future Mrs Ex Gingerich, who wooed the dreamboat Newt in the front seat of his car for about 6 years while he was married to her predecessor? Eeeew.
A liar and a cheat, he certainly is. She is a home wrecker, who should hide her head in shame, instead of promoting their trash values. Imagine them pretending to be decent folk? The NERVE!

The "anybody but Barak Obama" crew need to offer a viable alternative who is not an intellectual, moral or political cripple or pandering weathervane. The paucity of the opposing field and ardor of "anybody but Obama" bunch illustrates that their opposition has less to do with the policies, and more too do with unrelated factors. Certainly sounds like irrational fear and good old fashioned shame when you boil it down.

Complaints about society going to hell in a hanbasket have been voiced forever. Examination of who benefits from entrenched policies shows that corporations profit at record rates on the back of society. Costs such as health care and retirement are externalized or ignored, while profits are shunted offshore. Meanwhile, false outrage over bogus issues distracts the rubes. Anybody who has ever watched even a mediocre illusionist can see the gambit a mile away. Obviously, it works, on a certain group. Shame on them and the ones manipulating them. Would be fun to watch if not such a serious subject. More thinking and less emotion is in order.

Ok, if anyone read this far, they will relalize that this is an intemperate and impolitic response. So be it. I just get tired of looking at nonsense and failing to respond. I don't know why I bother, except that it keeps me from snorting with shock while reading these pathetic threads in bed.

Have fun with the clown car parade that will be the R convention! The GOP has reduced itself to a bunch of wacked out, disorganized, extremist, racist, fundamentalist, pandering…..rabble.

Now I'm going back into the shop and make some sawdust.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)




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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

Dr. Dirt:

Can you please detail the qualification to *register to vote* in the United States of America ?

Thanks.


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

Let me get this straight. Newt's daughters from his first wife defend Newt and refute charges of an open marriage from his second wife so maybe Newt and his third wife might occupy the White House ?


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

Dave 
Spoken like a true liberal from Oak Park, IL (a San Francisco type suburb west of Chicago)
Want to talk about cheaters? How about the "Blow job" guy in the white house. And now we are stuck with the socialist "changing" all the values this country fought for.
He won't get a second term, unless he pulls the "Chicago style politics" that got him into the senate in the first place.

NBeemer
I'll give you a list

New garbage cans for the bungalows from the Democrat precinct captains in Chicago.
Maybe a receipt from a grocery store showing you're in the 'hood

An actual I.D. to show you're qualified? Naaaaa…............. that's discriminatory.

The inmates are running the asylum. God help us all.


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

jim C, Don't throw me under the "L" just yet, dude. ;=) I lean right of center, not left and down.

Just pointing out that both Newt and Cain both failed the "before election squeaky clean test" that the American electorate requires to get a president into the office. After that, who cares.

I've been saying all along we need a real hero and I don't even see the hint of one.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

Dave
You got it wrong.
I was referring to DaveHuber Post #1302


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## DaveHuber (Nov 12, 2009)

Gee Jim,
San Francisco type?
Whatever do you mean?
Have you been here? We're you made to feel unwelcome? Sorry about that.
Can you be specific as to whether your comment is laudatory or derisive?
be specific.

The other portions of your post are fragments from the past. Old news. Are your complaints that out of gas?

I'm unclear about your point.

Seems to me that the folks monkeying with voting are far, far from Chicago.

Just what, exactly, are you afraid of?

Are you sad were not in another one or two ill advised, counter productive, outrageously expensive wars without end?

Those funds could have bought a lot of textbooks and medical care for Americans that need it. Instead, it was spilled in the sand. Literally. Think of what we could have done with all those resources.

That's not to mention the tragic, senseless, sinful waste of life and limb, which is incalculable.

What, exactly, are the ideas you promote?

Any fool can criticize, find fault and throw monkey wrenches. What is your better idea? What is the better idea you propose?

Let's be constructive here. I'm all ears.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

you want the facts well OK. the cost of healthcare that is bankrupting America is because no one wants to be sick so they go to the Dr right. now before you know it instead of the one drug you need for your illness they put you on a bulk Regimen of no less than 5 medicines. I currently take 11 meds a day all in the name of better health. so i got tired of it so I started loosing weight. the curse of American fast food food that is engineered to make you hungry so you get fat then once they have you fat they call you a diabetic because your blood sugar is over 115 it used to be 300 that is where sugar spills into your urine before blood glucose we tested for diabetes by urine strips. why this rant because my insurance is forced to pay over 800 dollars a month for the 4 dollars in drugs that have been around for years to control blood sugars. that unless your over 300 you aren't doing much damage to your self but the AMA adopted this new standard of 115 making the population of diabetics jump 900 times the previous amount then they came out with wonder drugs avandia and actos witch are both now black boxed one for blindness and heart trouble and the other for bladder cancer the cure caused more expensive diseases to treat fortunately i am showing no signs of cancer and my eyes are OK. next i found out that i don't have to eat three times a day so i stopped the nonsense we are not Mal nourished and only a few hundred years ago people ate only one meal a day and snacked for the rest of the day lightly so i adopted this as there were very few fat folk 200 years ago and it was rare to be a diabetic I have drooped my weight from 385 to my new low of 282 in only a year buy this change i was able to have my last 3 hgba1c tests come in at 5.5 not diabetic and i am now down to only one med for diabetes and I will soon be off that, thank you very much. so we have a nation that has bought into the big medicine lie a lie we perpetuate every day in the hospitals across America. tell me in the last 10 years on every corner next to the gas station there is a new business pooping up do you know what it is it is a Walgreen's or a rite aide the days of the mom and pop pharmacy are gone and the new money maker is pharmaceuticals they are rich as can be because they are screwing us for meds the prices are out of control you think gas is high have a parent on plavix or something else to keep them from getting a clot and dying an aspirin works about as well but instead we have drs recommending the new wonder drug they get huge kickbacks for writing these prescriptions vacations dinners etc so instead of take and aspirin a day its take a 50 dollar plavix this was ok but it is now the sole cause for bankrupting america we are being ********************ed by the medical profession that swore to protect us do no harm that means to my pocket book too eliminate the preemptive care and we can roll the clock back to the prosperity of the 1950s

morality if you have had sex with more than one woman you are immoral and have no ground to judge others .and if your gay you are an abomination against god and you will go to hell for it just as fast as an adulterer will. unfortunately for my sole and my chance of running for president i had sex with over 100 women when i was young so i am out of the running However i never cheated on my first wife she cant say the same so I have a second wife who I have never cheated on. but the 100 women thing screws me for being a candidate. most of you aren't far behind me I am sure life changed in the 60s and was off the hook in the 70 and the 80s well we all know about the 80s sex drugs and rock n roll. the modern man cares not if your monogamist or even if your gay what we need to care about is who is going to put an end to the medical sham that is bankrupting America who will build the strongest defense who will rebuild Americas roads and bridges and who will put an end to the welfare state Barack wants to have . so yes any one but Obama


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## DaveHuber (Nov 12, 2009)

Well, I'm glad that you are feeling better.
I'm unsure how Barak Obama contributed to your situation, as it sounds long standing.

I don't think that carrying over 300 pounds is any prohibition on being President. Newt Gingerich is making a run and he's a big , cuddly, jolly fellow. President Taft was a big guy; reportedly, he got stuck in the White House bath tub and had to have a bigger one installed. So you have that going for you.

I think we actually agree that health care on a for-profit basis is a big part of the problem. The medical-industrial
-congressional complex, to steal Ike's label, is heavily invested in maintaining the status quo. It is working - for them, not us.

The same applies to the incarceration-for-profit industry. War, on a for-profit basis has not worked well, except fot the architects of it. The rest of us just get to pay for it. The truly unfortunate get maimed and killed for it. The abjectly unfortunate have it waged in their home, and on their children, where it will ensure misery for generations.

The remainder of your comment cannot possibly be addressed to any of President Obama's failing, since he is neither gay, an adulterer or whatever other sexual issue you address.

I don't think President Obama suggested any sort of welfare state.

As to a strong defense, I think you might consider that extracting our troops and resources from the quagmire that is Iraq/Afghanistan is prudent. Doing it in the most expeditious manner, without compounding the problem is the intent. It seems to be working, albeit slowly. As for the efficacy of the plan, ask Osama Bin Laden whether US military policy benefitted him or not.

Perhaps we could let Cigna and Blue Cross/Blue Shield administer the military efforts. What could go wrong?


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

*"I don't think President Obama suggested any sort of welfare state."*

His actions are doing just that.


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## DaveHuber (Nov 12, 2009)

How, specifically?


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

http://www.worldnewstribune.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/chart.png

If the Republican primaries are any indication, one big debate in the upcoming election will be whether President Obama is pushing the country toward a European-style welfare culture.

Investors Business Daily
While it's true that the country has been headed in this direction for many years - with the explosion in entitlements since the 1960s and the aging of the population - Obama has, in fact, greatly accelerated the trend.
According to the Census Bureau 49% now live in homes where at least one person gets a federal benefit - Social Security, workers comp, unemployment, subsidized housing, and the like. … That's up from 44% the year before Obama took office, and way up from 1983, when fewer than a third were government beneficiaries.
This year, more than 46 million (15% of all Americans) will get food stamps. … That's 45% higher than when Obama took office, and twice as high as the average for the previous 40 years.


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## DaveHuber (Nov 12, 2009)

Agreed. Lots of Americans need help. Chiefly because of the dismal economy.
It seems that the eligibility thresholds for most assistance have not changed much. What seems to have changed is the numbers of people applying since they need help and have nowhere to turn.

If 15% of Americans end up on food stamps, that is a tragedy. Since the rates increased when the economy tanked, the reverse will apply. When the economy improves, reliance on these programs will ease.

I'm not seeing a viable alternative from the current group of candidates seeking to replace President Obama.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

So … *Jim_C*:

You cannot "detail the qualification to register to vote in the United States of America ?"

Okay. Thanks.

Maybe it's good not to talk about this voter ID thing, until you've looked into ANY measure of the facts.

Maybe.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

Sure Neil,
A documented citizen and resident of the U.S., and the proof to back it up.
Anyone who can't prove it shouldn't be voting or it'd fraud.
The states demanding it have offered to document citizens at no cost. But it's obvious there are powers that don't want this as they know it will erode their base, disqualifying those that legally should not be voting.

Is this simple enough for even you to understand?


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

It means … that what you're advocating for … already exists.

Did *I* type that slowly enough for *you* ??

Thanks.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

Exists….......but not enforced
IMO

I'm an expert in vote fraud….......I live in Illinois


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## RussellAP (Feb 21, 2012)

Obama's biggest problem is Grover Norquist. If you haven't heard about this powerful lobbyist here is a video explaining it. 



Not only does this man control the GOP's ability to act constitutionally due to his 'protection' racket, but I'm willing to bet it goes way beyond. 
The real powers that be don't like Obama, they never have and they are acting in such an obvious way about it that I'm surprised more people can't see it. 
Watch out for the propaganda man, the GOP is shoveling it on and they have absolutely no one in their stable who will do a thing about the countries problems.

90% of the GOP senators, legislators and policy makers are held firmly by the balls by this guy. They will break the country to get the power back, and that's exactly what the republicans are doing.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

So … IF it "exists, but is not enforced," then what's the sense of a new voter ID policy, and … how would ITS effect be any different ?

And … again … the DoJ and Brennan Centers-among others-have only found any true fraud in absentee (mail-in) ballots.

How would voter IDs help that ?


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

And who's controlling the Dept. of Justice these days?

There needs to be verification of the mail-in ballots. Depending on who's counting, authenticity is ignored.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

Russell

60 minutes is unbiased…...HA!
More liberal kool-aid.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

Who's controlling the DoJ, thse days ?

Gosh, Jim. Not sure why that matters….

The study was done under Bush's administration:

LINK

And what of the Brennan Center's inquiry:

LINK

I get rather amused/sick by/of this. As I'm fond of saying: you're entitled to your own opinions, but NOT your own facts. Those of you who live on this thread .. don't seem troubled by silly little things like facts.

I truly believe that blind partisanship-party before principle-is the single biggest current threat to our Republic.

Truly.


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## HawkDriver (Mar 11, 2011)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=PLSjL--qvsw#!


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

*East St. Louis: More Voters Registered Than Citizens That Live There*

By publiusforum, April 28, 2011 at 9:34 am
-By Warner Todd Huston

It is a particular problem with our voter registration systems across the USA that the voting roles are so filled with ineligible names that we aren't sure how many voters really live in any particular district. East St. Louis is no different.

In fact, East St. Louis seems to have more voters registered in its district than it even has voting population.
According to the 2010 Census, East St. Louis had a total population of 27,006. The population for those 18 and over, or those eligible to vote, was 19,098. With 22,000 registered voters, it seems to be a numerical impossibility for East St. Louis' Board of Elections to have an accurate or legal list of register voters.
Now there is already a federal law on the books that is supposed to prevent this from happening. It is section 8 of the Motor Voter Act. That section is supposed to require that each state makes sure that its voter rolls are cleared every year of ineligible voters. Whether the voter has moved, has passed away, has gone to jail or what have you, these ineligible voters are supposed to be cleared off the rolls.

Unfortunately, not once has the states been forced to undertake this move to assure that their voter rolls are true and clear of ineligible voters and fraud.

Earlier this year I spoke with J. Christian Adams and he told me that it would take about $10,000 to bring such a lawsuit to the courts to try and force a state to satisfy section 8 of the Motor Voter law. So that is one problem, for sure. If our actual lawmakers-whether in congress or back in the states-aren't going to uphold the law, the price for interested parties to force the matter are high.

East St. Louis is not alone with this problem. It is a problem all across the nation


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

He who ridicules the sources of others … quotes blogs.

Charming.

Outstanding.

Classic, even !


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## doughan (Apr 22, 2011)

I love the republican haters!
you hate them why?

look at the states and their financial conditions(spending at the federal level IS the problem today)and see which staes are in better financial shape and which party has a majority in their respective state legislatures.
yeah here in california we are broke and in debt at the state level and have been controlled by democrats for most of my life…..but still the republican haters blame them


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

Post hoc ergo propter hoc.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

well it is good you can keep the argument civil but remember even if i like you name calling will get anyone banned from the thread, and since i don't want to loose any friends please keep it cool. we can discuss things logically and agree to disagree thanks to all of you for posting on this thread it is fun when more readers who have read the thread actually take the time to post if your a silent reader welcome i hope you enjoy the banter and please feel free to comment or just say hi so we know your a reader .

I have to say Obama is pushing his socialist agenda too hard and he wants to eliminate the true middle class he has tried way to had to attack us and yet people are blind to him I don't understand .

Most of you agree you are worse off than 4 years ago right well who are you going to blame i ALREADY POINTED OUT THAT WE HAVE THE CURES FOR MANY DISEASES AND WE WITHHOLD THIS CURE FROM THE GENERAL PUBLIC

I am afraid big medicine is more than the country can bear and socialized medicine is a disaster do you realize your local er is clogged with people who are not ill they are drunks and dope fiends looking for a high and no one will put an end to this sham on the system I propose a law that will be a felony to regularly visit the hospital and demand service on an overtaxed system for the purpose of drug seeking and this will be called the frequient flyer law it will require a federal evaluator to review habitual visits to ers for the purpose of drug seeking and for those that are habitual wasters of hospital resources this is a sad day but a law called emtala is the cause of the problem hospitals have to see anyone who reports to a er with a complaint regardless of their ability to pay or to be on a free assistance program called misp it is sad when a health care system that is robbing from us needs protection but it has to be done drunks and hobos who are going to the er for a place to sleep that is warm need to have a safe place to go sleep locking cubical s must be available for the indigent to keep them out of hospitals.

every American who gets aid must report to work every day and will work for their check based on a pay rate for minimum wage at the federal wage level not the state wage level you will be put to work on road crews and graffiti removal or placed as an office helper where you can learn the skills for a job that will get you off the rolls no more free lunch. having ill legitimate children is not a reason to get paid every month no free rides for anyone if you cant afford your children they shal be taken from you and placed in the foster care system until you get off your lazy ass and get a job.

we shall eliminate the automatic denial of federal disability benefits that exists today and we shall go to a system where a bord of drs will meet review your case and will decide after a hearing with the dr that said you were disabled is interviewed and so are you and if you are found disabled you shal get the ssd you paid into all your working lif. Never working immigrants are not to be eligible for this benefit if you were a stay at home mom you will be removed form eligibility for this as well unless you pay into the system every month at a rate that is comparable to a full time employee NO FREE LUNCH the current reason this policy exists is so that people are forced to get an attorney to get them the benefit this has proved to be a cash cow for the attorneys just like workers comp cases you don't get anything without a lawyer and once you get one the legitimately disabled people get their benefit and many that are leachers get theirs too all to payroll lawyers another expense we waste money on fighting against people that are actually disabled .

free school lunches will be ended no more hand outs to people that can afford to feed their own children your unfed child shall be removed from your dysfunctional home and placed in the foster care system with people who will teach your child the right values that work is the only way to get ahead in life.

Next Teacher and their spouses who teach our children are not eligible to get any of their spouses social security What you didn't know this yes this is a mis justice to anyone who makes the carrier choice of being a teacher this must be fixed people who work all their lives shall not be denied their social security benefits of their spouse because of the job they choose one system for all end stirs and pers and put all the money into the ssi system three systems are not needed and end up hurting the people who the benefits are for.

the retirement age shall remain at 62 and you shall be compensated for staying in the work force at an elder age

these are a few things that need to change for america to return to greatness we must bite the bullett and get er done


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Just weeding through - just to be clear, if the teaparty flag is their flag and flown as their organizational flag - that is legal. Emblasing a person on the US flag and flying it as the US flag, that is a legal violation. Depending upon how a flag is presented or flown may be legal and offensive, and tacky - on all counts.


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## muleskinner (Sep 24, 2011)

And just to be a little more clear, it is illegal to deface a US flag; it is not illegal to construct a flag that uses design elements of the US flag.


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## patron (Apr 2, 2009)




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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

*How Romney beats Obama*

By LIZ PEEK, The Fiscal Times
March 14, 2012
It's time for Republicans to stop mewing like sick kittens and get on with ejecting President Obama from the White House. Like Victorian mothers fussing over their daughters, pundits on the right can't stop nattering over frontrunner Mitt Romney's flaws. He has not yet won over a clear-cut majority of GOP voters, he will preside over a divided party, his unfavorables are too high, he's gaffe-prone, he carries some baggage - most notably Romneycare.

These are concerns that, in many cases, also dogged Ronald Reagan during primary season in 1980. Mr. Reagan, too, was expected to lose; he, too, was under attack from different factions in the Republican Party, he polled at a disadvantage to the incumbent, he made some unfortunate ethnic jokes, he was pilloried for his record as a tax-raiser.

It didn't matter. Once nominated, Reagan went after President Carter, who was vulnerable. This year, Mitt Romney (the most likely nominee) will go after President Obama, who is also vulnerable. A candidate whose campaign theme is, "I can't get anything done!" and who continues to blame his predecessor for every misfortune doesn't have much to sell.

How should the GOP campaign unfold? Mr. Romney's overarching theme should be the basic difference between the left and the right: Democrats want to control or influence an ever-larger slice of our nation's commerce. They want to oversee, for instance, the insurance companies, drug producers, hospitals, banks, coal miners, oil producers, pipeline operators and auto suppliers. By way of ramped-up regulation, subsidies and energized litigators, they seek to impose their priorities on businesses large and small - their rapture over green energy, their deference to organized labor, their indifference to profits.

Mr. Romney's retort: the government is not good at commerce. If bureaucrats could run the economy, the Soviet Union would have survived. This is a winning message. Polling done by the Gallup organization last fall revealed that 64 percent of Americans consider "Big Government" the greatest threat to the country-much more than big business or big labor. Skepticism over the role of the federal government is profound; Americans estimate that 51 cents of every dollar spent by the government is wasted. Perhaps even more surprising is a poll also conducted last fall that showed Americans twice as ready to blame the federal government than Wall Street for our economic woes. Imagine-after the biggest financial crash in decades.

These are startling positions, and excellent fodder for Republicans. Romney will have at his disposal several examples of federal foolishness ready-made for a campaign. He can start with energy. The disappointing but heavily subsidized Chevy Volt is the kind of symbol campaigns beg for; the failed Solyndra is another. The Obama administration's commitment to alternative energy at any cost - a pursuit that will inevitably drive up costs for companies and individuals - can be exploited. If, in November, gasoline prices are still higher than normal, the public will be open to charges that Mr. Obama's energy policy is responsible.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Well Neil- sorry i don't live on these blogs -
To be registered you just give your address to the Acorn volunteer but tell them you are a democrat not a republican or they will "lose"you application.

If showing ID to vote were law - why is showing ID to vote considered disenfranchising voters, and states asking for photo ID are being sued by the Justice Department.

So while Officially - you can register by mail:
http://www.eac.gov/assets/1/Documents/National_Mail_Voter_Registration_Form_English_2.15.20121.pdf

*First Time Voters Who Register by Mail*
If you are registering to vote for the first time in
your jurisdiction and are mailing this registration
application, Federal law requires you to show proof
of identification the first time you vote. Proof of
identification includes:
• A current and valid photo identification or
• A current utility bill, bank statement, government
check, paycheck or government document that
shows your name and address.

------------------------
A problem with this is it does not stop the "Dead" from voting. So the registration is irrelavent, you just have folks go to the precinct and say I am "Joe Schmoe at 1224 Main street" and they vote.
http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/Dead_people_voting

Before you claim the numbers are really low - keep in mind the Coleman Franken Minnesota Senate Race was decided by *225 votes*.
In South Carolina there were *956 dead people that voted*.

They are investigating, but this is something that a voter ID law enforced at the polling place would resolve.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

Yeah. Tamper-proof ID's.

They sell, in Mexico, for about $200, and allow you to come and go, across the border, as you please.

And … again … since the Dept of Justice-during Bush 43's administration-said the only "substantive" voter fraud THEY found was in absentee (mail in) ballots … how does the Voter ID help ?


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

Also, the references to that "Ballotpedia" page-whatever that is-cite article after article that say that the names of dead people are still on the voter registration lists.

Overwhelmingly, it doesn't say the dead people voted, though-just that their names weren't purged from the systems.

They should be. Not that tough. Not likely to get anybody's dander up, either.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

*Romney's Character*

Sometimes, this facet of Romney's personality isn't so subtle. In July 1996, the 14-year-old daughter of Robert Gay, a partner at Bain Capital, had disappeared. She had attended a rave party in New York City and gotten high on ecstasy. Three days later, her distraught father had no idea where she was. Romney took immediate action. He closed down the entire firm and asked all 30 partners and employees to fly to New York to help find Gay's daughter. Romney set up a command center at the LaGuardia Marriott and hired a private detective firm to assist with the search. He established a toll-free number for tips, coordinating the effort with the NYPD, and went through his Rolodex and called everyone Bain did business with in New York, and asked them to help find his friend's missing daughter. Romney's accountants at Price Waterhouse Cooper put up posters on street poles, while cashiers at a pharmacy owned by Bain put fliers in the bag of every shopper. Romney and the other Bain employees scoured every part of New York and talked with everyone they could - prostitutes, drug addicts - anyone.

That day, their hunt made the evening news, which featured photos of the girl and the Bain employees searching for her. As a result, a teenage boy phoned in, asked if there was a reward, and then hung up abruptly. The NYPD traced the call to a home in New Jersey, where they found the girl in the basement, shivering and experiencing withdrawal symptoms from a massive ecstasy dose. Doctors later said the girl might not have survived another day. Romney's former partner credits Mitt Romney with saving his daughter's life, saying, "It was the most amazing thing, and I'll never forget this to the day I die." 
So, here's my epiphany: Mitt Romney simply can't help himself. He sees a problem, and his mind immediately sets to work solving it, sometimes consciously, and sometimes not-so-consciously. He doesn't do it for self-aggrandizement, or for personal gain. He does it because that's just how he's wired.

Many people are unaware of the fact that when Romney was asked by his old employer, Bill Bain, to come back to Bain & Company as CEO to rescue the firm from bankruptcy, Romney left Bain Capital to work at Bain & Company for an annual salary of one dollar. When Romney went to the rescue of the 2002 Salt Lake Olympics, he accepted no salary for three years, and wouldn't use an expense account. He also accepted no salary as Governor of Massachusetts.

Character counts!! (and yes…that's worth reading again!)


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

I think Seamus the encopretic dog might have a different view of what "character" means ;-)


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Sorry Neil - the South Carolina AG said that the voter records showed more than 900 people that were dead before the election had shown up and cast ballots.

So there are 3 possibilities.
(1) polling station workers are marking names on the incorrect line. (likely but not 100%)
(2) Zombies are voting…..not likely (but Walking Dead is an interesting TV show)
(3) Voter Fraud

My vote is a combination of 1 and 3
There will be clerical errors in most any process, but I doubt they made that same mistake nearly 1000 times in small state. There are certainly groups that take advantage of teh system and would organize like acorn and cast votes. How would they EVER be caught?

Far as this under Bush's DOJ - - how many votes = 'substantive'?
Bet the number is larger than Al Frankens margin of victory.

Thought you were arguing that the Federal ID law catches all of this….


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

1) We have allegations in South Carolina. As yet, unproven.

LINK

2) Purging dead people from voter registration lists makes sense. I said that already.

3) I DID say that we have a process requiring proof of citizenship to register to vote.

If that process isn't working, then how will another similar process be an improvement.

I also said that the CONFIRMED abuses of the system are largely in the absentee ballots. How does some ID or another help that ?


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

It is not a question of whether proof of citizenship will work, the Obama camp is trying to make requiring proof illegal - discrimination.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

I can't quite be sure how they're trying to make proof illegal, since it's a current requirement for registering TO vote.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

In reading the various discussions about a picture ID to vote, if I were to go and purchase a gun, should they not let me buy it if I present a copy of my deed to property in my state to prove my residency?

I mean I would promise that I am the same person whose name is on the deed.

I would also show them my birth certificate to prove I am of legal age to buy the gun and promise I am the same person named on the certificate.

I don't see a reason why they should not trust me? Why do I need to show a picture ID..does the 2nd Amendment not give me this right?


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

Scott: in order for you to purchase a firearm, I would presume you'd need to follow all applicable local, state, and federal laws.

I hope that helps.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

voting is for us citizens only including imports which i don't agree with but it is the law of the land but aliens who are not citizens should never even show their face at an election


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

$53,642. 
That's your family's share of President Barack Obama's $4.2 trillion spending spree. 
He will soon increase America's debt by more than all the previous U.S. presidents . . . combined, according to CNS News. 
Prophetic economist Robert Wiedemer, author of the New York Times best-selling book Aftershock, warns this "money from heaven will be the path to hell." In fact, Wiedemer foresees 50% unemployment, a 90% drop in the stock market, and 100% annual inflation . . . starting in 2012. 
I was skeptical of his claims at first, but then he showed me the disturbing evidence. 
See this chilling interview for yourself.

Aaron DeHoog
Financial Publisher 
Newsmax and Moneynews


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

CNS News..does that stand for "Complete Nutjob Source"?


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

no those are the numbers brad enjoy the big hole your man put us in and he wants to do it again


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## pcott (Jul 7, 2009)

I dont know, it seems this mess started when jr Bush was president. Blaming Obama is somewhat disingeuous I think.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

bush had nothing to do with obamas bill that no one read that was filled with trillions in pork he has raised the deficit by 17 trillion dollars do some research this is the root of the trouble


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

Paul start looking here and see what y9ou learn http://freebeacon.com/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=search&utm_term=hold%2Bobama%2Baccountable&utm_campaign=launch


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

don't you guys ever research any of this stuff before you get your panties in a twist?

If they did, they wouldn't be conservatives.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

here are some facts to chew on my lost caused lj pals


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## Drewtwo (Mar 10, 2012)

Want to fix the problem? One thing- Public financing of elections. Wall Street has purchased elected officials from both parties. Stop being taken for fools by the con artists at Fox, CNN and all the other propaganda shows masquarading as "news". Always get your "facts" from multiple sources and learn both sides before you decide. We voted these bums in. Do we have what it takes to vote them out?


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

No, they don't like facts, or statistics, or honesty…they go with ridiculous statements, and falsehoods, top it off with a healthy dose of bulls**t, made up facts and lunatic rantings..

You want to see a brutal dose of honesty? Watch "Game Change" on HBO…when you see how close we came to having a complete incompetent imbecile, with her finger a stroke away from the button it will make your head spin…but of course, none of that was true…

Since you Repubs are so good at math, how much did it cost each person in this country for Bush's deficit increase? Oh, no…we don't remember any deficit increase when Bush was president..this is all that Muslim Obamas fault..


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## Drewtwo (Mar 10, 2012)

I just noticed a video a few posts above. It's amazing that people will believe this nonsense. Ask your self- Who put this nonsense out? What is their agenda? This is a perfect example of what's wrong with this formerly great country that we're letting slip through our hands.


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## Drewtwo (Mar 10, 2012)

"bush had nothing to do with obamas bill that no one read that was filled with trillions in pork he has raised the deficit by 17 trillion dollars do some research this is the root of the trouble "-(The dude50)

I don't suppose you can provide a link to this "bill"? Can You? As long as you claim to be dealing in facts, How 'bout providing some and no, the op-ed page from some right wing rag won't cut it.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

this is the original bill it grew to some 2000 pages mostly pork for democrat causes that have created hardley any jobs http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-111hr1enr/pdf/BILLS-111hr1enr.pdf

I have not found the bill he actually signed


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## davidmicraig (Nov 21, 2009)

I guess what makes me curious is what anyone, in either party, thinks will actually get accomplished at the end of the election. Seriously. America is a republic not a dictatorship. With two extreme hate camps set up to spite each other, does anyone seriously think anything positive can happen?


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

yes things can happen and we must change our politics now we have to give control to one party when obama came into office he had control over the house and the senate he has lost the house in the largest reversal of seats in the history of the us the next step for the republicans is to oust the senate and thje president to have enough control to get us out of the mess the Obama administration has done in only 3 years and 3 months starting with the bill above and then an agenda of far left fanaticism that allowed to much movement away from what our founding fathers wanted if you have read the thread you would have seen the ideas I have for improving the country tarting with a change in medicione for profit that is killing the entire economy currently the best model of well managed healthcare is Kaiser while not popular with its members it is not wasteful and they control the prices of all their medication by proper use of a formulary and then buying in huge quantity arround the nation they buy in one location get the biggest cost reduction and they supply their members with the best prices for meds as a member you avoid the big money makers walgreens riteaid and cvs then we must eleminat welfare and replace it no more cash for having kids with no father to raose them this is the root of the decline we have to regain the long heald values that made america great ```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````


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## muleskinner (Sep 24, 2011)

*when obama came into office he had control over the house and the senate *

You really don't understand the basics of government, do you?


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

Or punctuation.

But I digress.


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## Drewtwo (Mar 10, 2012)

"we must eleminat welfare and replace it no more cash for having kids with no father to raose them this is the root of the decline we have to regain the long heald values that made america great" (thedude50)

Where did you find this stuff? In the bottom of a tea bag? How much cash does one get for " having kids with no father to ra(i)se them". Also, Do You know what segment of society collects the most "welfare"?

Do You have any understanding of the factors that caused the current economic problems?


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## Drewtwo (Mar 10, 2012)

"...he (President Obama) has raised the deficit by 17 trillion dollars do some research this is the root of the trouble.." (thedude50)

I did some research and for the life of Me I just could not locate that 17 trillion dollar deficit President Obama ran up. Perhaps You might show us where we can find that?

*U.S. Federal Budget Deficit*
http://useconomy.about.com/od/fiscalpolicy/p/deficit.htm


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

*Or punctuation.

But I digress.

--Neil*

So Neil, would you make fun of the thedude50 if you knew he had a disability?


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## muleskinner (Sep 24, 2011)

Boy, sometimes it's hard restraining my inner smartass!


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

*Scott*: Since I AM disabled … I might. Yeah. You never know. I just might.

Why do you ask ? Why do you pick this person, and this issue … when HUNDREDS of posts have been so horrible to others, and to groups of others ?

Curious….


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

So, we can't question your hind….....SIGHT
See, making fun of others really isn't that hard to do.
Stuff it Mr. right guy


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Neil, because I consider Lance my friend.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

Note that … I was unaware of any medical issue that Lance might have, so I wasn't attacking any medical issue.

*Jim*, on the other hand, having just learned that I AM disabled, attacked my disability, directly.

Do you BOTH hold yourselves out as Christians ? I'm really curious.

*Scott*: I would have thought that the principle-how people treat each other-should matter more.

I'm glad he's your friend. I'm not sure what point you're making, either.

Gee, Guys. This is fun, isn't it ???


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

What did I say that has anything to do with my faith? Are Christians forbidden from asking questions?


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

I asked you why you wouldn't speak up when others are being treated like crap, around here.

Why would you only speak up when it's "your friend," or somebody whose politics are more closely aligned with yours ?

Or … more recently … I didn't make fun of Lance's disability. Why wouldn't you stick up when Jim DOES make fun of mine ?

You guys are all about party, and not about any principles.

And you're proving it, again.

That's MY point.

WWJD ??

I think *I* know.


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## Drewtwo (Mar 10, 2012)

I don't care how someone spells a word as long as I can understand what they're trying to say.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Neil, this is Lance's thread…anyone else in here that feels they are being treated like crap are here because they made a decision to be here.

If they feel that way, they should leave.

You know nothing of my principles, so don't pretend to know.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

Of course, I don't, Scott.

I can only comment on actions.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

NBeemer
I've known about your disability for a long time. You have stated it on various threads. I don't make fun of it, but I illustrate you making fun of other people's weaknesses.

Have a nice day!


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## muleskinner (Sep 24, 2011)

I think I remember that theDude once mentioned that he only uses punctuation for important things, or something along those lines. I'm having trouble imagining a disability that allows one to only use the alpha-numeric keys on a keyboard. I'm sure we'll hear from him on the matter.


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

We should celebrate our President's impressive list of accomplishments ! Obama is the:

First President to apply for college aid as a foreign student, then deny he was a foreigner.
First President to have a social security number from a state he has never lived in.
First President to preside over a cut to the credit-rating of the United States .
First President to violate the War Powers Act.
First President to be held in contempt of court for illegally obstructing oil drilling in the Gulf of Mexico .
First President to defy a Federal Judges court order to cease implementing the Health Care Reform Law.
First President to require all Americans to purchase a product from a third party.
First President to spend a trillion dollars on shovel-ready jobs when there was no such thing as shovel-ready jobs.
First President to abrogate bankruptcy law to turn over control of companies to his union supporters.
First President to by-pass Congress and implement the Dream Act through executive fiat.
First President to order a secret amnesty program that stopped the deportation of illegal immigrants across the U.S. , including those with criminal convictions..
First President to demand a company hand-over $20 billion to one of his political appointees.
First President to terminate America s ability to put a man in space-defunded NASA.
First President to have a law signed by an auto-pen without being present.
First President to arbitrarily declare an existing law unconstitutional and refuse to enforce it.
First President to threaten insurance companies if they publicly spoke-out on the reasons for their rate increases.
First President to tell a major manufacturing company (Boeing) in which State they are allowed to locate a factory.
First President to file lawsuits against the states he swore an oath to protect (AZ, WI, OH, IN).
First President to withdraw an existing coal permit that had been properly issued years ago.
First President to fire an inspector general of Ameri-corps for catching one of his friends in a corruption case.
First President to appoint 45 czars to replace elected officials in his office.
First President to golf 73 separate times in his first two and a half years in office, 90 to date & counting.
First President to hide his medical, educational and travel records..
First President to win a Nobel Peace Prize for doing NOTHING to earn it.
First President to not know how to properly pronounce Navy 'corpsman'.
First President to go on multiple global apology tours-including bowing to foreign rulers.
First President to go on 17 lavish vacations, including date nights and Wednesday evening White House parties for his friends; paid for by the taxpayer.
First President to say that America was not a Christian nation.
First President to have 22 personal servants (taxpayer funded) just for his wife.
First President to keep a dog trainer on retainer for $102,000 a year at taxpayer expense.
***So how is this hope and change working out for ya? Don't you feel better now?


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

Very good David I have another one of those hope and change but i cant find any hope so i hope for change in November. If this list don't piss you off your a sad case for being an American. i don't care what party your in if you think this is the actions of a real American then please leave your passport on your way out. I hope you leave this great land and never return..Its not to late to oust this poser please help us oust him and anyone who believes those were the right things to do .


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

I am very unclear what I may have said that should have got my reply to my not spelling and punctuation removed. I guess someone didn't like what I said but i don't think i said anything offensive to Neil.infact I would like to know who was offended and why my reply is gone


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## TimmyP (Sep 13, 2011)

For thedude50: Congrats on losing so much weight over the past year. But please, PLEASE, drop the occasional period in your postings - those run-on paragraphs are hard to read, my friend.

My wife (oh, I'm sorry, my partner) is foreign-born..and naturalized. Fortunately, she tends to vote along the same lines I do (when she does vote), so that's 2 for the right!

Since one of the themes running throughout this blog is the health care act, I found an article in the newspaper (The Washington Post) the other day, that quoted a couple of studies indicating that people who had gotten access to medical insurance (in this case, either Medicaid or Medicare) had no improvements in their health, compared to their health from when before they were enrolled in Medicaid/Medicare.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

More than two-thirds of Americans disapprove of the way President Barack Obama is handling high gasoline prices, although most do not blame him for them, according to a Reuters/Ipsos online poll released on Tuesday.
Sixty-eight percent disapprove and 24 percent approve of how Obama is responding to price increases that have become one of the biggest issues in the 2012 presidential campaign.

In the past month, U.S. fuel prices have jumped about $0.30 per gallon to about $3.90 and the Republicans seeking to replace the Democrat in the Nov. 6 election have seized upon the issue to attack his energy policies.

The disapproval reaches across party lines, potentially spelling trouble for Obama in the election, although the online survey showed voters hold oil companies or foreign countries more accountable than politicians for the price spike.

"Obama is getting heat for it but people aren't necessarily blaming him for it," said Chris Jackson, research director for Ipsos public affairs.

Majorities of Republicans, Democrats and independents all disapprove of the president's handling of gas prices, according to the online poll of 606 Americans conducted March 26-27.

Eighty-nine percent of Republicans said they disapproved, as did 52 percent of Democrats and 73 percent of independents.

"People are unhappy that they are having to pay $3.90 a gallon. They want somebody to be able to lash out at and the president is as good a person as anybody," Jackson said.

BLAMING OIL COMPANIES

The most common reason cited by voters of all political stripes for the rising cost was oil company greed.

Overall, 36 percent of respondents said "oil companies that want to make too much profit" deserve the most blame for higher energy prices. Twenty-eight percent of Republicans said so, as did 44 percent of Democrats and 32 percent of independents.

Twenty-six percent of all respondents said a range of factors was equally to blame, including oil companies, politicians, foreign countries that dominate oil reserves and environmentalists who want to limit oil exploration.

There was little difference in that result across party lines. Twenty-seven percent of Republicans, 24 percent of Democrats and 32 percent of independents said all of those factors were equally to blame.

Republicans have hit Obama particularly hard for his decision to block TransCanada Corp.'s Keystone XL Canada-to-Texas pipeline as a sign that his energy priorities are hurting America.

Hoping to placate car-loving Americans, Obama toured U.S. oil country last week to tout his "all of the above" energy strategy that includes room for oil and gas development in addition to support for renewable fuels.

In Oklahoma, he pledged to accelerate approval of the southern leg of the Keystone XL pipeline. Republicans immediately dismissed the campaign-style stop as a stunt, saying Obama does not have the authority to really jump start the project.

Jackson said Obama has little to fear, at least according to historic trends, from gas prices alone if the U.S. economy continues to recover from deep recession.

Previous spikes in fuel prices have not affected U.S. presidential election results. But economists warn that higher gas prices could slow the overall economy, which would toughen Obama's chances of winning re-election.

The poll has a credibility interval of plus or minus 4.6 percentage points for all respondents.

Read more: Reuters Poll: Americans Angry with Obama over Gas Prices


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

N Beener Said:
*Jim, on the other hand, having just learned that I AM disabled, attacked my disability, directly.*

Because Jim is a typical Tea bagger..blinded by hatred, and racism, fueled by bogus facts, and stupidity, and incapable of seeing other points besides his own twisted, bogus reality.. and Jim lashing out at you just proves my assessment of him

That list doesn't piss me off, because most of it is bulls__t, and I can make a list too of everything I perceive republican presidents did wrong..but oh, wait..we don't remember anything bad republicans do..only democrats..I guess it's selective.
*First President to not know how to properly pronounce Navy 'corpsman'.* Really…Thats reaching…lets see..Why dont we discuss that practically EVERYTHING that came out of Bushs mouth was mispronounced, and used in the wrong context..sooo stupid..

*First President to go on multiple global apology tours-including bowing to foreign rulers.* Hmm..I would rather see my president respectfully bowing to a foreign ruler, than skipping out of a meeting, holding hands with Oil Sheiks like a giddy schoolgirl

I love you tea baggers..on one hand you scream about too much government impeding your lifestyles, yet your the first ones to say that it's the presidents fault that the gas prices are too high..I think the only thing thats too high are the tea Baggers..make up your minds and get your tin foil hats on straight will ya,....If it benefits you or makes a stupid point your all for Gov. involvement..but if it suits you to bitch and complain about it then you say there's too much gov…..well…which is it? You can't answer that question because you don't even know..your just too busy parroting everything Rush Drug addict says, and repeating Fox news facts and lies..

*people who had gotten access to medical insurance (in this case, either Medicaid or Medicare) had no improvements in their health, compared to their health from when before they were enrolled in Medicaid/Medicare.* Uh huh…I'm sure all the people that are dying of cancer and have no insurance will be the first to back up that gem of a fact..

As far as hope and change go…in 2008 I HOPED the presidency would CHANGE hands to someone smarter..and it certainly did…


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Not Photoshopped either..


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

"*Because Jim is a typical Tea bagger..blinded by hatred, and racism, fueled by bogus facts, and stupidity, and incapable of seeing other points besides his own twisted, bogus reality.. and Jim lashing out at you just proves my assessment of him"*

Normally I don't respond to your juvenile rants, as they ALWAYS include derogatory "terms". "Tea Bagger" is only one of them that you have used over many months. You and Olbermann need serious counseling regarding your paranoia.

I can't for the life of me understand why clowns like you invade every thread with vitriol vomit and target specific people.

If I have pissed you off, as you say, and you "don't like me" as you say, then I have accomplished my goal of taking another liberal down to the level they deserve.

Quit while your behind.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

Brad, I just let you back in because the time had passed and i felt your infraction was not as viscous as some others. however please refrain from calling names, tea bagger is a derogatory term and is counter productive to what is being said by both sides.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

now back to the beef. just in time for the election the law that was bankrupting America and was being implemented even though lower courts told Obama to stop the process got spanked today. This could be the straw that broke the camels back. read this and weep liberals Solicitor General Donald B. Verrilli Jr. should be grateful to the Supreme Court for refusing to allow cameras in the courtroom, because his defense of Obamacare on Tuesday may go down as one of the most spectacular flameouts in the history of the court.

Stepping up to the podium, Verrilli stammered as he began his argument. He coughed, he cleared his throat, he took a drink of water. And that was before he even finished the first part of his argument. Sounding less like a world-class lawyer and more like a teenager giving an oral presentation for the first time, Verrilli delivered a rambling, apprehensive legal defense of liberalism's biggest domestic accomplishment since the 1960s-and one that may well have doubled as its eulogy.

See our full coverage of the Supreme Court's Obamacare hearings.

What the Supreme Court Could Do About Obamacare, Explained
Obamacare's Supreme Court Disaster
Why Obamacare Will Survive
Supreme Court Probably Won't Punt on Health Care
Medicaid is the Big Sleeper at the Supreme Court

"What is left?" Justice Antonin Scalia demanded of Verrilli, "if the government can do this, what can it not do?" Verrilli's response to this basic and most predictable of questions was to rattle off a few legal precedents.

Justice Samuel Alito asked the same question later. "Could you just-before you move on, could you express your limiting principle as succinctly as you possibly can?" Verrilli turned to precedent again. "It's very much like Wickard in that respect, it's very much like Raich in that respect," Verrilli said, pointing to two previous Supreme Court opinions liberals have held up to defend the individual mandate. Where the lawyers challenging the mandate invoked the Federalist Papers and the framers of the Constitution, Verrilli offered jargon and political talking points. If the law is upheld, it will be in spite of Verrilli's performance, not because of it.

The months leading up to the arguments made it clear that the government would face this obvious question. The law's defenders knew that they had to find a simple way of answering it so that its argument didn't leave the federal government with unlimited power. That is, Obamacare defenders would have to explain to the justices why allowing the government to compel individuals to buy insurance did not mean that the government could make individuals buy anything-(say, broccoli or health club memberships, both of which Scalia mentioned). Verrilli was unable to do so concisely, leaving the Democratic appointees on the court to throw him lifelines, all of which a flailing Verrilli failed to grasp.

"I thought what was unique about this is it's not my choice whether I want to buy a product to keep me healthy, but the cost that I am forcing on other people if I don't buy the product sooner rather than later," said Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg. Verrilli responded gratefully: "That is-and that is definitely a difference that distinguishes this market and justifies this as a regulation." 
ADVERTISEMENT

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Time and time again, conservative attorneys and judges fine-tuned their argument to fit existing legal precedent, arguing that the mandate was an unconstitutional use of Congress' authority to regulate commerce because it forces individuals into the stream of commerce, rather than regulating economic behavior already underway. Former Solicitor General Paul Clement, who argued against the constitutionality of Obamacare, ably responded to questioning from the Democratic appointees on the court, all of whom offered more persuasive defenses of the mandate than the man who had come to the court to do so.

Most of the conservative appointees on the court appeared to sign on to the argument-advanced by Judge Henry Hudson in his decision striking down the mandate-that the individual mandate regulates economic "inactivity" rather than economic activity. That argument was designed by foes of the law to circumvent a previous opinion written by Scalia, where he wrote that "where Congress has the authority to enact a regulation of interstate commerce, it possesses every power needed to make that regulation effective." Scalia seemed to sign onto Hudson's reasoning during oral arguments.

"Here you're regulating someone who isn't covered," Scalia said. "You are saying that some people who aren't in [the insurance market] must be in it, and that's different from regulating in any manner commerce that already exists out there." Chief Justice Roberts, when asking questions of Verrilli, seemed to be speaking for himself. By contrast, when addressing the law's opponents, he twice identified the government as the source of the counter-argument. Even Justice Anthony Kennedy, considered to be a potential swing vote, seemed open to the inactivity/activity argument. "The reason this is concerning is because it requires the individual to do an affirmative act," Kennedy said.

Yet Kennedy appeared somewhat sympathetic to the government's position that the health care market was unique, though he curtly observed that if upheld, he fully expected that the government would apply the mandate to other industries.

Verrilli was given five minutes for a final rebuttal and offered a stronger performance than he had in the previous hour he had been given.

"Everyone subject to this regulation is or will be in the insurance market," Verrilli said. Citing the legendary Chief Justice John Marshall, he concluded that "the provisions of the Constitution needed to be interpreted in a manner that would allow them to be effective in addressing the great crises of human affairs that the framers could not even envision."

It may not have been enough.


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

You let me back in because you guys needed somebody to throw tomatoes at…

I think Tea Bagger accurately describes that political faction, and the people that populate it..


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

I will summarize my feelings about this whole affair - Dude, sorry to ramble

My wife saw the news yesterday where students were protesting in DC because they don't see why they should have to pay back their student loans - their education should be free. Guess again - new lesson to be learned!

I put myself through college and paid for it myself. I have paid for everything I have done - good, bad, and otherwise. The idea that all these people deserve a free ride is not good for them, us, the country. This stifles thought, speach, creativity, individualism - and THAT, my friends is what this is really about.

There are a lot of folks that are having seriously hard times. I know what it is like to be layed off the week before Christmas, family coming and not having enough to pay January's rent. Been there, another time I was layed off , the rent was due and I started a company - and worked another full time job during some of it because times were bad. I asked other family members for loans so I could pay my bills (and yes I paid them back with interest). I have been there

Having had a business of my own, I know first hand what they are taxed and regulated. I have been told that I am evil being a capitalist business owner - to that I happily agree even though my business failed - and yes I know why and I made the mistakes that made that happen. I could blame this or that and what does that do for me? It took me 10 years to pay back the debt from shutting the company down - did not declare bankruptsy. AND for several years, I could not afford health care - payed cash for all services.

The idea that we cannot say this or that because it is offensive to someone else and they can say whatever comes to mind, even using the same words that if I used, I would start a race war. If someone does something bad - commits treason, kills, mames, steals, mugs someone - they are acting out because they are opressed, its society's fault - oh please. If I do any of these things, I expect go to jail.

If I get a mortgage to my house, I expect to pay it. When the value of my house went down, tough beans, I still have a contract for the price I paid and it is my obligation to pay it - suck it up.

If I were to become unemployed, I would do whatever I had to do to put food on the table - I have been there before. It is not because I was born with a silver spoon (can't remmember that far back), or the color of my skin - it is because that IS my job and responsibility.

People have to start being responsible for what they do. The politions and judges need to be responsible and accountable for what they do.

My oppinion - call me what you want - I really don't care. The money I make, whatever it is, I am entitled to - it is mine - and I see no reason to support a bunch of people sitting on their ass because they feel that the are entilted. If I am evil for doing well, I have earned what I make and then some, if a small business owner or executive does really well, he or she deserves every dime that they make because they live and die on their decisions and many times, they are using their money to make it happen.

Bring back the American way of life, you work, get creative, think, and you make the living that you earn. If you don't like your situation, change it. I have had 4 different careers and was at the top of each - didn't like where I was going and changed it.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

+100 dbray.
That's all that needs to be said.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Agree dbray.
I really don't want to be part of any political argument, but for the record I don't have any choices.
What I would like to mention is an independent report on healthcare that listed the US healthcare dead last among'st civilized nations at providing healthcare to their citizens. Even Taiwan cam out high on the list and a video interview - non political, demonstrated how other countries had addressed this problem 20 or more years ago and saw it as a non political special case scenario that had to be introduced.
Yes, it virtually meant universal coverage, with several different ways of achieving this, and ALL cost around 25% of what the US's healthcare costs.
The consensus was that the US system will not work and will cost way too much for much less.
Whatever your political views are on healthcare, I think the obvious goal is to have all of our legal citizens covered and reduce the cost of healthcare overall, similar to all those other countries who have found a way of achieving this. Why not learn from them?


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Roger - that is the problem. When our politicians (all of them) give services to illegals by approving it or turning their heads to it (same thing in my book) - even Social Security and full medical, and they doo this quietly, there needs to be a change.

Illegals are actively given/issued Social Security numbers and benefits - giving them citizen status, even unemployement benefits. We have no borders, everyone is welcome to get whatever they want - or so it seems, we we as legal citizens pay for it.

There is no accountability and I pay for this. Our govt gives billions away to many countries and we get crapped on, our govt gives billions to illegals in services and here in Maryland, the state and local govts are NOT permitted to ask if a person is here legally let alone asking them to prove it (including the police and school systems). It might offend them.

Charity begins at home and if you don't take care of home - it falls.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

dbray, precisely, and I do not see any candidate or party that is willing to take the necessary steps to take our country back and give our citizens a break in doing so.
It's time to run this country for Americans only (legal residents too), time to stop political posturing. time to stop ALL outside financial bribery, time for a combined effort of ALL citizens to get the job done. No time for political arguments, time for a coalition on a war footing to fight our way back.


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Thank you

Did you know that if American citizens were to go to Mexico (or any other country) in the same fashion as the people from all of these other countries have done to us, it would be deemed as an invasion of a soverign nation? What's more, it is.

Our govt leadership has the spine of a jelly fish, they suck up to every country except our allies and our citizens, telling us that it is the right thing to do, while they make millions in honorariams and kickbacks, complaining when people in the business world try to make a living, dealing with all of the BS govt policy and regulation.

Some of my family came from Youngstown, Ohio - formerly a serious producer of steel, next to Pittsburg, PA. I remember when my grandmother had to clean the window sills everyday because of the pollution from the mills. She lived until she was almost 97. Before she died, she made the comment that she didn't have to do this anymore - the steel mills are all gone, the unemployment was 50% (of the people that didn't pickup and leave), crime was way up - all because the mills had to clean up the air or be heavily fined. Now we buy the steel from China and we wonder why things are so bad.

There is no middle ground - between the unions and govt, you cannot manufacture in this country and be profitable - not gowing to happen and sell your goods at a price that will sell unless you are so small and stay under their radars or automate to the point that you have 12 employees.


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

I agree with most of what you said, but the reason the steel mills died off had less to do with EPA regulations and more to do with the fact that the mills were relatively unchanged since the early 20th century, and the owners of the steel mills were reluctant to upgrade the technology of steel production, opting to keep their profit margins high rather than upgrade and stay with the advances in the steel manufacturing technology. Along with the fact that after WW2 we built modern steel mills in Japan as part of the rebuilding effort, and then you had country's like China, that also built more up to date mills, and both country's had larger labor forces that were willing to work for lower wages..producing better quality steel, cheaper and faster than we could, so you get the death of the steel industry in this country.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

So the owners of the steel mills cannot do what they want with their own property they paid for?


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

As usual, nothing could be farther than the truth from the Nailor and his incessant berating of owners and corporations. (But he works for an owner of a sheet metal company and never refuses his check on Friday.)
Our steel mills were up to date and even surpassed anything anyone had with the implementation of Arc furnaces in the 60's and 70's.
What we built in Japan was obsolete by the late 60's. They progressed on their own after that.
What killed us from a competitive standpoint was, as usual, the unions and their wages, benefits and obstructionist target to automation and 21st century manufacturing.
Finally, *"better steel from China?



?

Click to expand...

?"* What are you smoking!!!! They, to this day, can't produce a stainless steel product acceptable to the medical industry.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

that s right Jim they only get what American steel taught them. they have no cutting edge steel mills in china. they have the pollution to prove it. yes the EPA did close down American steel in the nimby syndrome that has killed this country. this was all caused by the do gooder left wing .

Rex I am glad you piped in I want to tell you why medicine is cheaper in other country's. That is a lack of preventative and early care medicine. this is why we live longer than any third world nation. we have the best medicine never kid your self about that my friend. However it is the for profit part of the drug industry that makes up 92 percent of medical costs in this country. 92 percent can you even grasp that number my friends surgery is expensive but the false charges ar e what is killing this country why should a minor procedure cost 16k like the spinal injections I will have tomorrow and why should it cost this much for a room. i am in for an hour tops and usually 15 minutes. I will tell you this if this is let go it will be the thing that brings this country down. we cant afford free healthcare for everyone. If you have no insurance you are going to die. what we need is industry back in America. can we all agree on that at least and how will we solve the rising rape medicine is doing to the country? I dont know but it has to stop now . and with out good jobs the country will die a slow death as a giand adict paying its drug dealer china.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

Brad I did not let you back in to be a target. i brought you back because you have some valid points and they should be heard. but name calling is not aloud. and this goes for every one. If I miss it from people from the right it is not my intent to show favoritism on this rule. so feel free to flag it or pm me with a post number and I will get it removed, and will warn and ban anyone who calls names or is just plain nasty. we can disagree with out a bunch of childish crap.


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

David - There really is no one thing so we are probably both right (depending upon where your perpective is, you see things differently - that is good) but there were still quite a few mills operating in the mid to late 60's. By 1980, the mills were all but gone. There has been one mill that has been opened in the mid '90s that I am aware but I don't know if it is still operating. To open, they spent more on the polution control than what they expected to make (gross) in the first five or more years - or something like that, so I was told.

There is no industry and little agriculture left in this country, just paper pushing. Without these, we are at the mercy of others. Salaries are coming down or the companies are shutting down, we are in a spiral. Maybe - people will wake up and decide that this has to change.

Business is not evil, they are trying to make a profit - that is what they are in business for. If people don't like or can't afford their products, they don't buy them. If you don't like the company you work for, you find another one or you tolerate them until retire. Governments, by design, control; their mission is to control, their power is derived from control, their laws are to control - it is all control. Taxes are a two fold thing, they are for funding AND to control. The idea in taxation is to keep the majority of the people comfortable but not have enough money to feel that they are in control. Once they feel that they have control of their wants, wishes, and dreams, the government (elected officials) lose control.

We are now at a point where the elected people feel that they know what we need - more than what the individual feels that they need. With that, they give enough to sway the votes so they become permenent. They create their matyrs, the "industry", and if they, the govt, controls the "industry", you will live better. Soon after, there is no accountability in govt. the "industry" is gone unless the govt owns it or runs it outright or by regulation (oil, GM, Chrysler, the banks). Oh - wait.

There needs to be a change! A big change at the polls!


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

To illustrate this look around you. Try to find oil based paints, if you run a commercial business, you have access to these finished but at what cost? Oh, the fumes could cause cancer (tested on rats, and "has been known to cause cancer"). If you have termites, they tent your house and fumigate it with things that will kill you. There is a house down here in NW D.C. that was treated for termites for 5 years - multi million dollar house and was a significant home since DC was built. The house in no longer habitable by people - but that is acceptable, the owners lived in a toxic home for 4 years. The current drugs out there that control how you feel - heartburn, colestrol, depression, anxiety, etc… that they know will screw you up for life. The comment that I got from my doctor was that the good out ways the bad - doesn't matter if you want to kill yourself while taking their drugs, they have something for that.

I was perscribed a drug for colesterol, I took it twice and really didn't feel good - so I didn't take any more of it. Two months later the Dr. calls me up to tell me not to take it anymore - they took it off the market because it was killing people (but they weren't dying from colestrol). My doctor knew there were serious issues with this drug for two years and he prescribed it anyway.

But you cannot buy an oil based finish becuase it killed a rat someplace after being dipped in the finish every day for 2 months - go figure.


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

It figures Jim, as an owner of a company, that you would blame the failure of the steel industry in this country on the unions and the workers. I just don't get you …why is it your information is always right and untouchable and everything I say is totally wrong? It's called point of view based on information. I'm not making this ******************** up..I can read as good as you…If we stayed competitive and our steel mills were up to date then we would still be in the game. Just because you get your information from biased, Republican sources doesn't make it right. I would say it was a combination of both factors..unions and wages, and the reluctance of the steel industry to stay competitive that killed it..but there is no compromise from you..your right and everyone else is wrong..

And for the last time..I don't work for a sheet metal company…stop trying to demean me and make me out to be some stupid idiot….just because you owned some rinky dink tool making company doesn't make you an expert on corporate marketing…boy..you must have been an absolute treat to work for…tight as a ducks ass..underpaying all your employees..

I work for a very high tech company that designs, installs and maintains computerized building environmental controls. We also do security, surveillance, and access controls, as well as building energy analysis, and modification. Sure, I am "just" a CAD drafter as you like to point out (because that makes you feel better about yourself..to put me down) but I am also a 3D modeling/render artist, and I also do architectural design for the company when needed..I hold two CAD certifications, I also hold a low voltage electrical license. The guy that owns the company I work for is a friendly, generous man that respects and appreciates all his employees and takes very good care of us…and before you accuse me of blogging on company time..I happen to have the day off today…..I guess I should hate my boss for giving me paid vacations..I don't refuse my check on Friday because I earned it..

Some of my Work


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Hi Dude,
The biggest problem with healthcare as I see it is the wide gap of making incredible amounts of profit from it and all citizens that need it … it is as simple as that. 
As the report I read and viewed said, the only answer is some form of universal coverage which each working citizen pays into. There are 2 methods, either a gov tax or a premium to a commercial insurance pool. As the report says, healthcare is a special case and does not fall into the political arena, but for some reason we cannot seem to separate the two.
America does have good healthcare at a price, which is inflated to cover some of the least fortunate who cannot afford insurance, costs would come down if everyone paid in a low percentage of their wages.
The report suggests that the best healthcare system in the world is the Dutch one, but I don't suppose anyone has looked at that for reference.
Healthcare in the US is driven by profit, not by need, and when it comes down to it, do you really think that need over greed will fly? Let's try to get morals over money as the first step.
No politics, just what is the right thing to do, after all, our healthcare system is the most costly, less covered and dead last in the healthcare systems in the civilized world.


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

David - having done a lot of archetectural drafting in Autocad and some in other engineering trades - 2 and 3D. This is not a little or easy job. The time constrains and accuracy requirements to model anything, is a royal pain. Been there, done that. There is nothing "little" about your job and anyone that says so is misinformed.

You more than most understand the planning processes required to do these projects and if the drawings are not right, the whole project is a mess. There are employers that do not share your bosses perspective - sad but true. There is also the idea that all bosses are bad regardless of what they do - this happens a lot as well.


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Roger - you are correct that healthcare is driven by profit, as it should be. As soon as the govt takes it over (see VA hospital care) the quality takes a deep dip in a whole bunch of areas.

The insurance companies are stockpiling money to deal with the long term aspects of Obamacare in the event that it stays - if they have been aproved for Obamacare, otherwise they will be dropped from the healthcare program. What they actually pay Dr.'s is ridiculous unless you are a clinic and those that are Dr. owned will be shutdown in 2 years. The way the regulations are stated and the amount of regulation involved, it is amazing that anything gets done - its the way govts run, by design.

In order to create new medications, this takes money. The pharmacutical companies have to turn a profit and handle the lawsuits because the drugs when given to millions of people, kills some (sometimes more than some). Many companies subsidize the cost of their medicines to people that cannot afford the insurance, they have for years.

It is far from perfect but if you think for a minute that the govt running this industry will be better, just keep this in mind - President Reagan took procurement authority away from the IRS to purchase anything and gave it to the Army because the IRS could not account for 6 billion dollars that it lost.

If you want to take something that costs $1,000.00 to buy and manage, and spend $4,000,000.00 to do it, get the government involved - and it will probably not work.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

I hear and understand what folks are saying, but healthcare as I see it is a country's humanitarian obligation to have healthy citizens. This is why profit politics does not address the problem. It goes without saying that if ALL other civilized countries have a better healthcare system for their citizens, then why should we not look at those that are proven to work and stop this cock eyed notion that anything that does not make huge profits is UN-American. What are we for heaven sake, leaches of the world?
The founding fathers talked about Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness, why can't can't constitution addicts understand that Life needs medication sometimes and Happiness is when you get it, then you have the Liberty to pursue any path you wish to take. No brainer. Or does it mean something else?
Politics Suck. It's about time we had instant referendums (the technology is there) to have important decisions made by citizens, not bribed politicians in Washington, after all that would be True Democracy.


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Point taken - here is a question, why are all those people with such great healthcare coming to the US to get treatment?

Nothing is free, someone has to pay the price for it.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

The people coming to the US for treatment are from other countries who do not have good medical and are rich enough to afford American Healthcare treatments. I find it amusing that *anyone* with money from any part of the world (and third) has access to our system while a lot of our own citizens do not. It's money talks …... need I say more?

No reference is made to suggest Healthcare should be free.


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Unfortunately, many people that want all of this healthcare, have no desire to pay for it. They are entitled.

I asked my Dr. if he would do what he does for free and he said something about continuing education, food, college for his kids, mortgage. THen he said something about the office, phones, nurses, heating, sterile supplies, medications, record keeping.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

David, nowhere is it suggested that people and services are provided free. We drive on roads, go over bridges and have people who defend our country, none of that is free either, but we ALL have access.
I never see anyone involved in this healthcare issue EVER refer to ALL the other systems used in civilized countries, WHY is that. It's because they know these other countries have the answer, but instead of doing what is right for our citizens, profits take precedence every time, so it's unlikely there will ever be some sort of universal coverage while corporations, lawyers and Insurance leaches while they pay the politicians to keep them making excessive profits. Tort reform is also necessary, most doctors pay crippling insurance premiums way out of line with the risks.
Our whole healthcare system is simply a huge money making machine on steroids that needs the ventilator shut off


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## RandyM68 (Jan 20, 2012)

Here's a funny commercial.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/rove-linked-group-paints-obama-double-agent-russia-142856121.html


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

I don't want free medicine for all. our safety net for the poor has worked for many years with no real problem accept you cant get a dr to see you if you are an indigent medicine recipient. IT IS A SAD THING THAT THE PEOPLE THAT ARE NOT TREATED ARE THE WORKING POOR AND MAYBE PEOPLE NEED TO BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR OWN HEALTHCARE. It is fair to cover the poor and affordable coverage is a must for working stiffs but the answer to what ails the industry is that they make it too hard to be a Dr nurse or pa np or any profession in the medical field. the fact is I know what drugs to give for what ails you and i have more education than drs had only 60 years ago. but we have a bottle neck that discriminates against making drs out of our young people a bureaucracy of higher education. we let to many foreigners come here to fill the billets we need American drs and we need a lot more of them to put an end to the ability to over charge. as they do for simple procedures and handing out cold medicine. the fact that a indigent has to go to the er to be treated for a cold is insane and causes a huge wait for people that are truly sick enough to get admitted. medicine is great here once you get past the bull********************. The fact that the good parts of Obama care will go tumbling down because the law is bad is a sad thing. I don't think that they should kill the entire law and if the job is tough so ********************ing what. the supreme court has plenty of time to sift through the law as it means so much to this country they need to get off their lazy asses and show the rest of this government the right way to do things. yes I want them to pick the bill to pieces and decide what to keep and what to get rid of. but odds are they wont do the right thing they will instead send this defeated back to congress who are too stupid to write a bill that is constitutional.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

*Oh Well*


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Dude - Its not the cout's job to pick through, it was congress's job to do it right. If you remember, Pelosi told everyone to pass the bill and they would see what is in it later. Congress took out the clause that would allow the court to do this in the final anyway - it is a mute point, it would be illegal for the court to do this, it is an all or nothing event.

Roger - I don't think for one second that anything is free - BUT - the attitude that I get from many people - that they are entitled to free health care. I was told by a former neighbor that he and his family are entitled to free health care and Socicial Security disability benifits, he walked with a limp that he got as a child in a different country. They ended up getting a Social Security check every month and a health care card - they are not legally in this country - maybe they are now - they have a Social Security #, Maryland driver's license, voter registration card (Democrat). They have moved to a different state and for all intensive purposes, they are legal citizens at their new home.

My wife was told by a relative that she wouldn't mind giving her paycheck to the govt, after all they know what to do with it a lot more than she does. My wife asked her mother if the person (a young adult over 18) had been dropped on her head as an infant.

The fed has already indicated that they have to bring Dr's salaries to a "respectable" level. The insurance companies have started this process by reducing what they pay (they have to do this to be approved for Obamacare). My issue is several fold with this - If an individual is going to put themselves through the expense, time, and extensive rigors of 8+ years of medical school and God knows how much of a financial burden, why should they accept a $50 or 60,000 salary, the target salary levels. If they have their own office and pay for their own staff, it comes out of that. The result is that you have to build a medical suite of many Drs. and those will be shut down unless approved by Obamacare. Drs. are now looking at other ways to generate income just to stay alive (the drugs they prescribe) - and this is not good when a Dr. is compelled to look at other things before your health. Some Drs. (I have had a few) that are no longer carrying the insurance companies that are doing this. There has been a big increase is offices that require an annual fee to have the medical care of old (where a Dr listened to you and treated the problem, not the symptom).


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

So why should doctors make 50K and senators get 174K.

Seems to me doctors are lagely better educated and actually help more people than crooked politicians could ever dream of.
50K is not a big salary - and at that level you could not afford college for your kids unless it were a 2 income home.

One of the benefits of the for profit system is medical innovation in devices and drugs.
You rarely hear of the latest Jarvik Artificial heart, or the lates Aids treatment coming from countries with government run healthcare.
When the system is run by beaurocrats, there is no innovation - 
Many of the other countries - including taiwans system exist by offering US innovation in medicine at Chinese labor costs from stolen patents.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

"No reference is made to suggest Healthcare should be free."

Nor is there anything on the horizon that even *remotely resembles* a government take-over OF health care.

Red herring.

All ACA did is give the private insurers a few more million customers.


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

All the screaming and false information, challenging of the health care bill and lies is coming directly through the politicians from the insurance company lobbyists..thats what this whole thing is about..insurance company's loosing profits..period. Just more proof, like big oil that our government is owned by big business…


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Red herring - hmmm 
It will be an insurance based system and ONLY approved insurance companies will be authorized to participate. THe government through its panels WILL control what is authorized and what is "reasonable". The government is using the insurance companies as pass-throughs.

Now really, do you think Pelosi, Reid, and Obama are going to make a total transformation of the country's healthcare in the people's best interest - especially when Pelosi states, "pass it, then we will find out what is in it!" (or close to this)? This ALL about government control of every aspect of your life and death. I truly believe that she had no idea what was in there or she would have said "trust me!" somewhere in there. Had she said this, I would be really scared.

If you believe them, I have this bidge, for you I can make a really good deal, needs a little work though! - Just make an offer - we can talk, trust me.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

*Here's the ticket!!*


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

Well We will see what the high court does. the right made a good case and the left fell short it was the 3rd attorney that got to me. he made a good case for pick and choose by the high court and they have done it before so there is a precedence for letting parts stay and just dumping the things that are against the constitution. We will know in june just in time to sway the election either way the court has center stage now the election has gone back burner and that is not good for conservatives.

Obama has again dipped to carter type numbers all we need is a good candidate we can believe in and we may not have it till the convention Romney may not be electable and sanatorium is not conservative enough but a Gingrich sanatorium ticket could be in the works and the whole world is going to blow up in 2012


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*YES!

We need a New President very badly!
*


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Lance my friend, we should get behind Mitt cause the deal is done.

Let us use our energies to get rid of the imposter, Obama.

I think Iran will blow up in 2012.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

+!00 ROCKY

As was said, ANYBODY BUT OBAMA.
I like Santorum, I like Gingrich, I like Ron Paul.
But we need to get behind the front runner and have him represent what we need to bring this country back from the Bill Maher's', the Chris Mattwews, the Keith Olbermann's, and even the little Brad_Nailor's of this country.
(I put him in the company he belongs in.) 
Talk about racists, small minds belittle Romney because he is a Mormon. I know of no other people who are family oriented, successful, patriotic folks, who believe in the work ethic and the American dream.


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## RandyM68 (Jan 20, 2012)

Don't put Brad on the list. He's just an amatuer douche bag. You'll just give him a swelled head. He already thinks he can replace Mikey, but he's no Bill Maher, either.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

ok you guys that will be it our vote goes to anyone but obama lets make it a pact


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## S4S (Jan 22, 2011)

..........................................................*Update*.................................................................................

Republican ( U.S.A ) Presidential primary 2012

In my last post ,84 days ago, I shared my picks for the Winners for both the Dem. and Rep. Party elections . 
They were Obama and Romney .

January's Betting odds for becoming Party nominee :

...............................................*ODDS*

Rick Santorum …........................ 12/1

Newt Gingrich …........................ 8/1

Ron Paul …................................ 7/1

Mitt Romney ............................. 7/4

Obama ( Dem. ) ........................ 3/5 
.........................................................................................................................................................

April's Betting odds for becoming Party nominee :

...................................................*ODDS*

Rick Santorum …........................... 10/1

Newt Gingrich ............................. 50/1

Ron Paul ..................................... 50/1

Mitt Romney ................................ 1/25

Obama (Dem.).............................. 3/5

..........................................................................................reference ( UK book , Fraction Odds )

.........................................................................................................................................................

*Summary : *

As early as January , some books had Romney's chances for winning his party's nomination 
as high as 80 % . The best bet and probability for me , at that time,was to pick Romney . You would have a very nice return on your wager when ( and if ) Romney steps up to the podium and accepts the nomination . If you locked into those 7/4 odds and bet on Romney in January , then it seems like an excellent choice now ,three months on , you are sitting pretty . If you believe Santorum has a shot ( political landscapes do change ) then you may want to lock in on Santorum at 10/1 ,Currently. A $ 100 dollar wager on Rick will return $ 1100 dollars if he wins his party's nomination . That would "inflate your net worth " by a nice margin. But the real value bet was Romney in January . No money to be made by betting on Obama . You would have to tie up a large amount of money for a long amount of time for marginal returns .

Well ,dude , I will check back in with you in August for another update . Hope you and all LJs are having a nice Springtime …....................your friendly punter, moment .


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

Well my friends we have our man we all took the oath any one but Obama and so it is Romney I hope you took that bet moment The fact is this is Romney's race to win the polls have Obummer sinking and if Obummer can sink Romney before Romney can get his message out which is repeal Obummer care the price is too high we all know we cant follow the sinking ship that is the European model we cant afford socialism even the soviet's get this lets not be stupid it is time to get out and knock on doors ask for people to vote Romney get involved at your local precinct. It is time for us Republicans to take back the senate and the white house. And to keep the house. We must repeal Obummer care


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## S4S (Jan 22, 2011)

I did make that bet with a book in Ireland in January . Ironically enough ,it paid off on the day I voted in the Texas primaries .
Therein is the main drawback for me on wagering on politics;......time factor . Less than a handful of these political wagers for me in my career. Hope you took the Miami heat and the points after the first game of the NBA finals and quadrupled up at least. Well that's all the 'tips' I have to offer across the aisle . In a spirit of bi-partisan non-ideological handicapping , I take my leave . I would like to thank the University of Kentucky basketball program , Mitt Romney , the New York Giants **, *and the Miami Heat for helping the dude and me ( and whomever was listening ) to increase our net worth . Good luck to All .

( *no wager )


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## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

Anyone who put his hope in man will be disappointed.
No man can solve our man made issues.
We, the voters, are not willing to do what it takes to solve our issues.
Our hope can only come from above.


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## NANeanderthal (Jun 2, 2011)

Yes, we most assuredly need a new president. Problem is if we get one it will be Romney, and that being the case, it doesn't matter. Dems and repubs have different rhetoric, but "govern" the same. Just like the back and forth about Obama vs GW, if you support one and bash the other, I would love to hear a good reason as to why.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

True that the legislative process is somewhat irrelevant about who gets the whitehouse.

Even George Soros says Obama and Romney are the same!

What would be different is in the cabinet departments.
DOE initiatives
Department of Labor laws…like kids not being allowed to work on the family farm. WHich was pulled back because of an election year, but will go hog wild if Barry gets another 4 years.

It is in these positions at DOE, Labor, EPA, Education that there would be a real difference - and these are essentialy fiat power positions that have no legislative oversight in the rulemaking. Legislature can vote to repeal things like Carbon trading, and whether CO2 is a pollutant that the departments pass, but the gridlock would prevent it.

Without the supermajorities - Barry is limited in the damage he can do in lawmaking - but by executive order and the development of programs by the cabinet departments - he can get his agenda our without congress at all.

Just look at now HHS overturning the work requirement that Clinton and the Gingrich house did for welfare reform. No votes in the House or Senate, just Kathleen Sebelius handing down an edict.

This is the crap that is most harmful


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

I hear condi is going to be the vp i will vote that ticket for sure


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

any of you hear of another running mate yet


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