# Education In America



## RandyM68 (Jan 20, 2012)

I'm sure you've all noticed the decline in the intelligence of our children. I'm not talking about knowlege of geography, politics, or advanced sciences, just the basics like making change for a dollar, or balancing a check book. In the rest of the industrial world, the kids seem to be getting smarter. Ours, not so much. Do you think it is some sort of reversal in the evolution of the collective American I'Q? Could it be some thing in the food or water? Or could this guy be right? What do you think?


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## dakremer (Dec 8, 2009)

Read the book Outliars. Will give you part of the reason…..


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## dakremer (Dec 8, 2009)

deleted

not worth it….need to get my zen back


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## devann (Jan 11, 2011)

May I recommend an author? Dr. Thomas Sowell. He has written many books and articles about education, economics, & intellectuals. He does a pretty good job of explaining things that many people have difficulty understanding.


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## patron (Apr 2, 2009)

not sure where this fits
some years ago
i read an article
about the first grade test
for kids in japan

they had to fold (origami)
a 1 inch square of paper
into a crane (the bird)
standing on 1 leg

for me it is sad to see that most of our kids
want to drop out of school

i think it is partially from not really being taught
to think
but just to memorize


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## BobM001 (Jan 8, 2012)

I too HIGHLY recommend the writings of Dr.Thomas Sowell.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Well you get what you pay for.

*House GOP Looks to Slash Education Spending* 
The measure, which would continue federal funding for rest of the fiscal year, takes aim at some programs that were previously considered untouchable, including special education spending and Pell Grants to help low-and-moderate income students pay for college.

*Republicans Cut Education Funds To Cause Public Schools to Fail * (Click this link if video fails)

How many ways can Republican subsidize corporations? Let us count the ways.

The privatization of schools, Medicare, Social Security, Healthcare, Military contractors or mercenaries, and municipal water systems are all being considered as cash cows for privatization to the corporate contributors to the GOP.

How do we spell "corporate welfare? CHA C-H-I-N-G!!!

"Let's privatize our school systems", say Republicans. "Charter schools are better".

This is a lie. But many people are buying in to the idea of more corporate welfare and less "socialism".

The GOP's plan? Cut funds for public education, causing less money to be available for teachers and school district, wait for them to fail, then point to failed school system and say:

"SEE! They aren't doing a good job at teaching our kids. That's why we need business to take it over."

When you look at the statistics, New York is rated number one in education.

There's a correlation between salaries of teachers and results. *Maybe this is why Texas has the worst High School graduation rate of all the 50 States.
*
Yes, New York pays more in taxes, but we get a lot for what we pay. Progressive states also pay much of the Red States' share for education revenues that the Federal Government gives them.

Just because Red States don't charge corporations as much in taxes, doesn't mean someone else doesn't pay for those tax breaks the GOP governors don't collect in revenues.

So, the GOP's plan to privatize education is one that works to the benefit of the private sector, but not one that benefits our kids and their readiness to compete in a global economy.

http://ireport.cnn.com/themes/custom/resources/cvplayer2.0/IReportEmbedPlayer.swf?site=ireport&profile=ireport-embed&context=embed&contentId=636513/0


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## RandyM68 (Jan 20, 2012)




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## RandyM68 (Jan 20, 2012)




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## casual1carpenter (Aug 16, 2011)

I might get beat up for this but I feel that lots of tenured teachers become complacent, they present a lesson plan by reciting some facts or statements and moving on. Children need to be taught to think and teachers need to be held accountable for the children's educational development. School Administrators need to be held accountable for the teachers, aids, etc that they are supposed to be supervising.


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## RandyM68 (Jan 20, 2012)

You are exactly right, Casual. Anytime someone can not be fired just because of incompetence, they have no incentive to exert any effort. Most government jobs are like that. You have to really try hard to get yourself fired. Even when an employee can't do the job, they'll will just move them somewhere that they can't do as much damage.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Darrell…..I try to read Thomas Sowell each week. The man is brilliant


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

Personally I think the teachers could do a better job if the Government would stay out of the classroom. The teachers can't even raise their voice to little Johnny/JoAnna without either getting scalped by the system or the parents. I can't fault any teachers, good or bad, because I couldn't put up with the little beggars. BTW, there is 4 teachers in my family and the things they tell, I know I wouldn't make it.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

RandyM68,
I see you want to spend your time ranting and raving about how badly the Texas school system failed you. We all actually agree on that. It is obvious you have come from a failed school and appear to want to share/spread the pain.

So just what are YOU proposing to FIX it Randy?

Cut even more funding for schools so that school buildings fall into further disrepair?

Cut off air-conditioning to these Deep South schools so the kids can sit and sweat in the classroom instead of learning?

Cut teacher salaries so that fewer teachers will even choose teaching as a career?

Cut MORE teachers and load up MORE kids in a class?

Cut even more funding for buying textbooks and technology?

OR, are you just busying building one of Patron's soapboxes? Since you have a hard time following, I posted this in two threads for you.


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

they see me trollin … they hatin


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## RandyM68 (Jan 20, 2012)

The problems do start long before kindergarden. Most parents don't teach their kid's anything at home. Children get to school with having been taught their own name or adress, how to count to ten, or how to sit down and shut up. My wife works in an elementary school so I hear about the little idiots all the time. I know I couldn't put up with them. The parents are even worse. I do not blame the whole problem on the teachers, they are handicapped from the start. That doesn't excuse them totally either.


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## RandyM68 (Jan 20, 2012)




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## BobM001 (Jan 8, 2012)

Children spens 7 hrs/day Monday-Friday in what amonts to "government run daycare". They get "taught" subject matter "laced" with the PERSONAL ideology of the person teaching it. How many times have we heard where subject matter that is being taught is being "spun" by some idealog instructor with a "personal agenda"? Case in point
And another

There are instances where "history" is being changed from the truth only to be "spun" by political correctness or personal ideology of the instructor. Sometimes pertinent facts of our history are entirely LEFT OUT.

Another thing. I have this from FIRST HAND INFO. Students that DO NOT meet the requirements to advance from grade to grade are PASSED. They "don't want to hurt their self esteem". Now you move a student through the system who CANNOT READ, WRITE, OR PERFORM SIMPLE MATH.The school systems get their funding based on "degree of performance". Case in point the movie about Joe Clark. The kids in schools these days aren't being EDUCATED, they are being "PROGRAMMED". Guess what? The "software" is JUNK!!!!!


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## JollyGreen67 (Nov 1, 2010)

It takes all kinds of stupidity to make our youngins stupid. Example: Here in New Mexico, it is presently illegal, by the NM constitution, to hold kids back in the third grade - IF - they cannot read at the third grade level! That's the primary reason we get misspellings on TV screen scrawls, stop signs without meaning, newspaper ads that are illigeable, and state legislators that are illiterate. No wonder we are # 49 in literacy, right ahead of Mississippi.


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## RandyM68 (Jan 20, 2012)

They do the same thing here. Lower the standards to raise the passage rate. We now, at least, have a standardized test to make teachers responsible for the kids learning certain things. It is supposed see if they have a grasp on that whole years material, buy hitting the highlights. Now they spend half of the year just teaching them to memorize these highlights. We are getting the Ciff's notes version of education. You can read a book and write the *notes*, but you can't just read the notes and then write the book.


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## RandyM68 (Jan 20, 2012)

I had several teachers through the years that I actually respected. They would take the time to help students understand not just the material in the book, but the concept behind it. For example- History is much more than memorizing dates. I had some teachers that would really make it interesting to learn some boring garbage that we didn't even care about. Most of the students would pay attention and participate, actually even anticipate what we could learn next. Most of the ones I remember, though were the type that just made you read the book, or copy stuff off of the board. If you asked a question, they scream " Look it up." If it's not in the book, they get mad because they don't know either. Rather than admit that they need time to find that out, so they can explain it later, they just bow up and start to sputter."Go to the office, young man!" It's been over twenty five years since graduation and I still have fond memories of several teachers. A couple even became friends later on. The memories that really make me smile, though, are the confrotations with the idiots. I guess I always liked to harass stupid teachers. Well everybody else, too, I guess. I'm just a dick like that.


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

All the teachers I had in schools that I hated(?) back then, I love now because they didn't send me into the world not knowing anything. I use things I learned 60 years ago, everyday. If it isn't texting or a video game kids aren't that interested today. It's a funny thing a kid can't learn in school but give them a cell phone and they can tear the texting world up.


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## Gene01 (Jan 5, 2009)

The sole purpose of education is to teach the student how to develop his mind so that he is able to equip himself to deal with reality. A student has to be taught to think, to understand, and to relate his understanding to solving life's problems. He has to be taught reverence for the knowledge of the ages. He has to know how to acquire more knowledge by applying what he has learned. An education should not be about answers but, about finding answers.
A school should be a system aimed at the development of a child's rational, curious and joyful faculties. Instead, I believe (after 37 years in the business) that academia is attempting to alter the American student's nature by deliberately fostering helplessness and dependency. They seem dedicated to the mission of incapacitating a student's mind by restricting his intellectual development. Today's public schools and university systems, by and large, are handmaidens of the collectivists and socialists who have long lurked in our local, state and federal governments' bureaucracies.
Those students who manage to rise above this detestable and deplorable state of public (non)education, and university tripe, are truly heroic.


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## hhhopks (Nov 22, 2011)

Our kids needs to get better in Math. Right?
What a joke.

The fundamentals: Real world math situation at school (Ele, Mid/Jr & Hi School).

We now have students using a credit card system at the lunch room.
You swipe the card and you are done. The parents just need to replenish the account.

*Now you got cafeteria ladies who can't give the correct change back and students who absolute have no clue. So how's that for Math initiative for our school system?*


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## RandyM68 (Jan 20, 2012)

I didn't hate the teachers who made me learn, it's the ones that didn't know anything, and got mad when you called them on it. You are right Gene. Good teachers make kids want to learn, it wasn't a chore that you hated. You would try your best for them, because you respected them and you wanted to impress them. I still like to learn, but I figured out early that a lot of them were trying to fill your head with crap. By the time you have two or three college degrees they have made you memorize and learn to accept so much crap it pushes out all the common sense. You can't put a rational thought together anymore all by yourself, instead you just spout off some crap that someone else said. People who have degrees in education seem to be the worst.


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## RandyM68 (Jan 20, 2012)

I copied this from another forum. It is written by David Kirtley
He makes some very good points, I hope he doesn't mind if I share it.
The message will be lost where it's at.

Well, unfortunately it doesn't really fall down to party lines. There is enough blame on both sides of the aisle.

The fact is that schools have plenty of money. They just spend it on the wrong things.

The biggest money goes to transportation. How have we developed to the point where a child is unable to cross the street? Why is it the school district's responsibility to transport every student regardless of how far they live? I am not talking about rural districts. Nothing to be done about that. If the traffic is not obeying the law around school zones, give them tickets or take away their licenses. Hey, confiscate the cars and give the auction proceeds to the schools. People will catch on pretty quickly.

We have hordes of mystery administrators in all the districts. We are full of program directors, facilitators, assistant administrator for this and that. We have in Texas, last time I looked over 1200 school districts. (Don't even get me started on the school boards and their interesting spending…) Each with their little kingdom of assistant superintendent for this and that. Chapter I, Title whatever, Bilingual, Elementary Curriculum, Secondary Curriculum, Technology: the list of directors goes on and on. Oh, and now add Chief of Police positions as well. There are districts that have as many of these administrators as they do teachers.

I don't mind feeding the kids. That is really minor compared to the other stuff and at least it goes to the students.

The other real problem is that as long as we have the current mentality here in the U.S., we will never have our children achieve as well as most of the rest of the world. The main difference is that somehow, here in the U.S. it has become the sole responsibility of the teacher that students learn. Everywhere else the responsibility is on the students. In these other countries, if you don't want an academic path, they offer a trade path. If they don't want to be in school at all, there is the door.

We have marginalized all of the students that wish to pursue a non-academic path. We have taken out almost all of the programs for any trades. Those that are left have been turned into the dumping ground for special education so their test scores don't count against the school. Then the students that have no desire for an academic track are just there killing time and getting into trouble as idle children do. When it escalates into things that would be classified as felonies in the real world, they just sweep it under the carpet because they don't want to be in the news.

There are many more problems that this but honestly, few of them are related to the teachers. Yes, some are better than others. Take some of the money saved and increase teacher salaries. Make it a career where you don't have to take vows of poverty when you go in. Make it where they are not having to be there from 7am to 7pm with all the nonsense of playground duty and bus duty, after school tutoring, coaching extra curricular activities just to be able to pick up some money to make up for all the out of pocket spending they get stuck with in the classroom. Make it a job that people want rather than a job of last resort.

-Woodworking shouldn't cost a fortune: http://lowbudgetwoodworker.blogspot.com/


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## RandyM68 (Jan 20, 2012)

I agree with David's post almost completely. I had forgotten that they've done away with vocational classes almost completely. I learned a lot more practical knowledge in woodshop and vocational agriculture than I ever did in college prep English. We didn't have auto shop in my school but I would have gladly traded Physics and a couple of other classes that I can't even remember. Oh yeah, typing and another English class probably. Not everyone is bound for college. I know I was tired of school by my junior year. Believe it or not, I was an honor student until then. I had really enjoyed school but somewhere I lost interest. I quit doing homework, showed up hung over, many days drunk again by noon. When I was younger, I had perfect attendance three years in a row. Senior year, rarely even five days a week. That wasn't the teacher's fault, I was just tired of being there. The only part of David's comment that I would modify is about the pay. I believe that raising pay would attract a better class of people into the profession, and would ease the burden on the good teachers who are spending their own money on the students. I don't believe that just giving the current teachers a raise, will make the bad ones any better at their job.


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## RandyM68 (Jan 20, 2012)

http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/02/its_the_teachers_stupid.html

http://theinnovativeeducator.blogspot.com/2011/09/stupid-in-america.html


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

*they see me trollin … they hatin*
lol










Republicans made my kids stupid, lol.


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## EPJartisan (Nov 4, 2009)

Hi everyone, I have not read everyones posts yet, but I only have one personal tale to tell on this…

Back in the mid 70's a group of teachers got together in my home town Racine, Wisconsin. Frustrated with the way other high schools were conducted and the quality of education.. they found an old building and got permission from 20some sets of parents to start a new school based on the teachings of Henry David Thoreau (author of "Walden", "the Importance of Civil Disobedience" and the famous saying "IF a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears the beat of a different drummer, let him step to music of which he hears, however measured or far away.") .... and from BF Skinner (author of walden II, based on the concept that a child is best raised by community.. e.g "it takes a a village"). My high school was called Walden III. It is now one of the top best high schools in the nation, verified by Harvard university and voted the "greenest" and most successful public high school in the nation.. look it up. but start with my high schools web page. Walden III Walden is also one of the hardest schools to graduate from, due to a sytem called ROPE: Right of Passage Experience.. where each student must stand before two teachers and prove they have learned in 16 vital areas of education and learning.. write a long history paper, science experiment, and verbal presentations. There are NO TESTS. if you fail more than 3 areas you are held back for another half year.. no student slips through the cracks.

It is a school co-run by the students and a student council. Education is up to the student to maintain a 2.0 or get kicked out to a normal public school. Every opportunity was offered to each student to engage and learn. It is a very open autonomous system that many many students could not survive in. The always gave enough rope to scale the mountain or hang oneself. BUT the most important part of this is that my high school had NO MONEY. Students always had bake sales, raffles, and we even voted to sell out gymnastic equipment to get new windows on the front of the school.

I LOVED my high school. We have always had a 80-90% college directed student body. We accepted people from the poor to the wealthy, form the goth kid to the gay kid, to the young republican.. it didn't matter. What mattered was getting good grades while feeling part of a community, a loved school, teachers that you can adore for the rest of your life.

The city tried to close our school many times, everyone I know has had a chance to protest with signs infront of city hall.. all of us attended school even when it was "Closed"... they even closed our school and searched for drugs and weapons.. and when the police left and they had found NOTHING.. the whole student body cheered and jeered the stupidity of the city and police. IT was the students, the parents, the teachers that keep the school going, running, prospering, and today is recognized as the best learning environment possible. Walden schools and Montessori schools are popping up all over the nations, but alas as mostly private schools. MY WALDEN III remains one of the few public schools where kids truly can do and be the best they can.

Was it is Liberal school.. hell yes it was.. no one was judged.. no one was singled out as freak or morally wrong.. no one was black or white.. rich or poor… we were a community of individuals and THAT is liberalism… THAT is why to  this day I can not truly relate to a huge portion of my fellow American. This is why I get called "elitist" and "arrogant" on here.. because I know first hand how life can be without fighting about money or politics or religion.. yes my school was religion open but secular.. meaning it as not prohibited, only not enforced. OH we also had no formal sports.. we had gym, but we were an academic school.. so we did not have bullying or class division of popularity.. if you were a jock, you could go to any other school and join their sports… and many kids attended Walden but played football at Park High. We were open campus, dedicated to learning.

No one needs to believe me on this, and I know few people would appreciate nor understand the power and strength given to me by my Parents and other individuals who cared about a kid like me. School got me OUT OF GANGS.. school made me think critically and quickly..

MY only problem…. is that, NO …. my high school and my college life, did not prepare me for the anger, resentment, fear, and hatred that was beond the walls of my education. People fighting and hurting each other over silly ideals and concepts… MY HELL is other people… so you all can take your money, take your religion, and take your power mongering right into your heart… but I don't need it, not want it… and won't let it affect me in any way… for I have been given individual AUTONOMY and STRENGTH. Something no government, democrat / republican, or a religious nut's god can take away… not short of killing me.. and I know there are people on here who would like to see that happen… how lovely that is.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

*my high school and my college life, did not prepare me for the anger, resentment, fear, and hatred that was beond the walls of my education.*

Man, are you ever right about that. I grew up in Texas public schools. Highschool was more challenging than college and my teachers were top notch. I couldn't comment on the demographic, race/gender/sexual preference/etc., because it was a non-issue. Still is. The idea that liberalism or conservatism causes our children to be stupid is ridiculous. So far, I've only been taught intolerance by one teacher and I wasn't even his student.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Seems there are a lot of folks supporting alternative education.

The dems love to take credit for the educational success of these schools, yet still rail against the charter school model.

Mike posted a link and video about how awesome the education is in new York.
If you look at New York City - and find the 19 best schools - linked below, they are all neighborhood and charter schools -open to the public as options, but highly competitive - but available to all students city wide.

Hillary Clinton even came and spoke at Baruch for graduation - - called Basruch:
"an example of what we need to do with all of our schools," noting its small size and its emphasis on rigorous academics and community building."

http://nymag.com/urban/articles/schools01/

So while some of the nebbish's berate charter schools - they are happy to include their success rates in Science and high scores on academic achievement in the CITY scoring - - - then talk out of the other side of their mouths about how we awful the Charter approach is, to simply support the Union membership at the expense of students.


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## exelectrician (Oct 3, 2011)

Every day at dinner time, we all sat down to eat together, my father would look me right in the eyes and say " What intellegent question did you ask to day? And what was the answer?" I would gulp and lie some days, and other days I would go into long interesting discussions about my daily Intellegent question. I thought all fathers did this when I was younger, but quickly discovered this daily question and answer regimen was a unique situation for me in my community. This habit endures and now in my seventies I still ask Intellegent questions and turn to the internet for answers.
If you are a father start challenging your kids to ask one Intellegent Question every day and report back every day.


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## Gene01 (Jan 5, 2009)

EPJARTISTAN,
You are indeed one of the heroes of which I spoke in an earlier post.


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## RandyM68 (Jan 20, 2012)

I posted this on that mean forum they started just to pick on me, even though I have no idea what I did. I'll put it here, too. Hopefully I can find someone to stick up for me.

What are you guys calling me an * for. I should report all of you to the site moderators. I'm gonna PM Martin right now and get this forum removed. This abuse has got to stop. I'm so mad right now I could just…
Oh wait, I am an *. Thank you for noticing. I guess I was born that way. I come from a long line of them, on both sides of my family. To tell the truth, I never was mad. I don't actualy care who you vote for, what church you go to, who you sleep with, or what you think of me. I can get along with anybody. You have to go far out of your way to piss me off. On the other hand, If I see someone who gets mad when you don't agree with them, I'll say the exact opposite just to see the look on their face. It's cheap entertainment. We used to sit around the card table at my Grandmother's house. Aunts, uncles, cousins, playing canasta talking crap to each other. We are all a bunch of smartasses, even both of my grandmothers were. If someone actually got mad, or God forbid, cried out loud, It was open season and everyone jumped on, no mercy. We all developed very thick skin and an inate ability to push people's buttons. How did I do? I think pretty good. I found this website a few months ago. I really enjoyed looking at the projects, going several hundred pages back in the archives. Some categories I looked all the way through. I saw lots of beautiful work from some very talented craftsmen, and a lot of great ideas on jigs and things that I've never even thought of. This is by far the best woodworking site that I have found, but I ran out of projects to look at. Hmmm, What's this forum button? Generally, I never even look at forums and blogs an such, I got over that chat room crap years ago, but this might be interesting. I started reading all kinds of interesting stuff, about all sorts of different subjects, without clicking on off topic content. Then one day… Well, you all know when you read the off topic forums, there's one name that kind of stands out. Over and over. Being the prick that I am. I started watching for him. I don't even remember what the topic was, but I had to say something, only I wasn't a member yet. I signed up but, by then, that thread had died and I left it alone. soonenough, though, here comes the IQ thread. I started out trying to have a reasonable, adult conversation, but you all know that is impossible. I'd rather tease him, anyway, that's just how I get my rocks off. Like I said before, if I can make someone mad enough to run off crying, I am relentless. Especially if they keep asking for it, and it's so easy with this one, I don't even have to try. I apologize to everyone that I may have accidentally offended, pretty much any comments that I have made were for one purpose alone. I don't remember making personal comments to anyone else, even when they got mad at me and called me names, because I find that just as funny. This wasn't about any of you, I am truly sorry. After I got suspended for seven days, I snuck back in to play some more. That account got deleted and I never could get back into this one. Wow a challenge, I like that. I compiled all that crap I posted the other day, just like he does, copy and paste. I didn't have to make any of that up. I had lots of really rude stuff saved up too. I tried to log back in for a couple of weeks, and quit trying, planning to sneak in on a borrowed computer, and start a ******************** storm. Those are fun to watch. I had actually forgotten about it and was just looking at projects, when I noticed I was looged in again. Oh, hell, here we go. When I posted the what's wrong with LJ's forum, I had already PM'd it to Martin. I fully planned to get kicked out for good, but I did want him to at least read it before he deleted it. It lasted much longer than I expected, and definitely served it's purpose. When it was removed, and I didn't get kicked out, I promised Martin that I would quit picking on him and not start anymore fights. As far as I'm concerned, it's over. I apologize to all of you. Even Mike. We can even get along if you want to. I won't start any more personal ******************** if you don't.

O.K., where were we?


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## RandyM68 (Jan 20, 2012)

Now we can actually talk, without the ulterior motive. While there are a bunch of idiot teachers out there, it I mostly not even their fault. I just started that for my buddy. The truth is, most kids are ruined by their parents before they even start school. Most of the little rug rats have no manners at all. The parents have never actually disciplined their children. I'm not talking about spanking, I don't believe that works, and actually has the opposite effect. After the first couple of times I got my ass beat, it just wasn't that scary anymore. So, hit me again, I dare you. I got thick skin on my ass too. The spankings I got at home, were mostly from Mom, but I definitely wasn't scared of her. It really did hurt her more than it did me, especially if she tried to do it bare handed. I got busted a lot in school, too, I seem to have a way with making teachers mad, I don't know. If you can take the licks without crying like a little bitch, it really pisses them off. Dad, on the other hand rarely raised his voice, and the only time I remembered him spanking me was when I stole his truck at 15, but I always had this sneaking suspicion that he might just knock the hell out of me if I pissed him off. He never did, but I never had the urge to try and make him punch me, either.Until kids are smart enough to figure out to do what's right, someone in their life has to make them. It also has to start early. People nowdays think they're innocent and helpless until 18, and you should just let them do what they want. Instead you have to start much earlier. By the time they are a year old, most of them will look over their shoulder to see who's watching, before they do something they are not supposed to. That's the moment, right there. You can't let them do it. Get off your ass and do something. If you do it right the first few times, a look will be enough and they'll act right. By the time that they start school, they should be so used to obeying their parents, and transferring that to respect for a teacher is no big deal. Well, as long as the techer isn't an idiot, anyway.


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## superstretch (Jan 10, 2011)

@EPJartisan - That actually sounds like an awesome school. I was homeschooled, so I know all about "alternative" education, ie. how things were done up until 60 years ago. I don't wish to put words in your mouth, so forgive me if I misread your comment, but it sounds like the *community* did what the *community* wanted to fit the needs of the *community*.

I won't bore anyone with the details, but my mom taught us in a very community-type setting; surrounded by other homeschoolers and our families. Curriculum was tailored to each student and their aptitude and the parent/teacher was actually vested in the education process.

I grew up on the west side of Rochester. Churchville-Chili is probably the more premier of the school districts on this side of the city and the average cost-per-student is $16.2k+/year. The annual budget is $69M for 4200+ students. From wikipedia: "In 2008, 84% of fourth graders and 61% of eighth graders met or exceeded New York State reading standards"

Since I've been around, the NYS Regents board has lowered the passing grade for students to receive a "Regents Diploma" here in NY. Also see: 1 2 3

NY is ranked 34th in the US for High School completion (albeit probably heavily weighed down by NYC), and only 30.5% have completed a bachelors degree or higher. NY also has the 4th highest spending per capita. ( http://www.statemaster.com/index.php )

Anyone using NY as a standard for education should probably look elsewhere.


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## Gene01 (Jan 5, 2009)

@Randy,
As you have said, some teachers are failures because of circumstances beyond their control. After all, most are products of the government school and university system. And so are the administrators who are tasked with helping them become better. In many cases that's just the "blind leading the blind". A vicious circle of ineptitude and apathy. 
We've known for years that government schools were failing. It's time do away with that system and take what we've learned from alternative methods to structure a new COMMUNITY BASED, community funded system. Fiscally and legally structured to be impervious to bureaucratic tinkering and collectivist thinking.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Stretcy - thanks for both you and EP providing evidence that alternatives to Public school are positive.

The low graduation rates of Texas I suspect has a lot to do with the transient population, and the parental culture that doesn't value education very much - Certainly not all of them but enough to "Pull Down" the schools performance in ways that the teachers and community will struggle with.

Much like the old addage that more than half of life is "just showing up" if you look at truancy rates that are sky-high, you can have awesome teachers but they just "teach" to an empty chair.


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## superstretch (Jan 10, 2011)

My wife and I are watching Friday Night Lights on Netflix.. While perhaps exaggerated, truancy seems directly related to absenteeism by either parent.


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## BobM001 (Jan 8, 2012)

Hi Dan,
Being a City of Rochester resident and raised in Genesee County I grew up with an educational system that back in those days was second to none. The thing about the NY education system that most disturbs me now is that the NYS Teacher's Union has in every school a "union rep". That teacher is only "required" to teach ONE class/day. The rest of their time is relegated to "Union business". This is all on the taxpayer's dime. People like Adam Urbanski of the Rochester Teachers Federation block every attempt to make changes that will ENHANCE the learning of our children. The school board isn't much better as you have undoubtedly seen.


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## RandyM68 (Jan 20, 2012)

My little brother is eleven wears younger, and was pulled out of public school when they saw how I was turning out. Probably when he was in second grade, and put him in a church school for a few years. After that he was home schooled, which was good and bad.Mom is pretty much a religious nut, and my Dad is a preacher. Dad's pretty cool about it, but Mom drifts into the whackosphere sometimes. Naturally, his education had a lot of religion thrown in. Fortunately, my brother is smart enough not to swallow all that crap either. He learned to educate himself, which is the best way. As much as I hate to admit it, he is much better educated than I am. Neither of us really went to college, but he is much better read than most people I know. He can spout off stuff on all kinds of subjects. Some crap you can't believe he knows, but I don't argue with him, he's usually right. I was so bored with education by the time I graduated, I only read for entertainment. I didn't care to learn anymore. That changed later, when I realized how stupid most people really are. and I started teaching myself things, again. My brother still reads boring ass books all the time just to learn more, on all sorts of varied topics. He actually understands what he reads, too, not just memorizing for some test and then forgetting all about it. The success of home schooling depends on the parent and the student. If the parent is the type that can't teach their own child to behave, how can they teach them anything else? Some parents are very good at it, some aren't. Just like public school teachers. Most private or home schooling is either religiously or progressively biased. If the student can wade through all the extra crap they throw at them, they can get a great education. Just like in public school.


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## RandyM68 (Jan 20, 2012)

Nice discussion, guys, I'll be back later. Thanks.


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## superstretch (Jan 10, 2011)

lol Randy.. All I can think of is for a math lesson: If Jesus used 5 loaves to feed the 5000 and got back 12 basket-fulls, how many baskets did each loaf average?

Yeah.. that's definitely *not* how my homeschooling experience was. My mom was strict (no PJs LOL, up by 7, chores/breakfast done by 8, school work started by 8:30. We were usually done by lunch. We might have a couple reading assignments to do in the afternoon, but that was the bulk. I suddenly started testing in the 99th percentile, skipped 8th grade.. but then again, I said before I wouldn't bore anyone with my experience. ^_^


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## Gene01 (Jan 5, 2009)

@Randy,
My school experience was much like yours. :-(
6 years in the military during the 60's earned me the GI bill. A somewhat conservative midwestern university reinvigorated a quest for knowledge. At 71, I'm still learning.


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## EPJartisan (Nov 4, 2009)

I don't wish to put words in your mouth, so forgive me if I misread your comment, but it sounds like the community did what the community wanted to fit the needs of the community.* ~ superstretch

First, please let me apologize for my post the other day. I meant not to apologize for "you not understanding".. but that I was not clear enough myself to allow for understanding. This rest of the post though regarding the news source.. yeah.. that's why I deleted it. My anger got the best of me.

But to the statement above. My highschool community was made to accept all people into one community for learning. This was not a community for socializing, morality, or ethnicity… just for quality learning. So in a nuanced way.. the answer is "no" we did what benefitted everyone who wanted to be part of learning… I guess I could re-word your statement as "Individuals came together to form a community that supported everyone which defined the "needs" of the community and could change with when the individuals changed." Temporary homogenization in a pure and benign methodology, to achieve optimal results for learning.

Identity was secondary at Walden… though fully encouraged in order to know oneself and challenge oneself. Exposure to other thoughts and cultures was the concept of the community… and there were fights and kids who hated each other, but when it came to school all differences were put aside. It is a hard concept for some to imagine … unconditional acceptance. Complete security in a community without fear or shame. We had no need of a Black American group, or a gay/straight alliance, or a Christian club… no divisions… we DID have chess club, computer club, volley ball club, art club, etc. We were all free to be who we were and still excel. We all learned to be ourselves and yet let others be free to pursue life as they will.

Americans like to hamper success with endless complaining and squawking like headless birds about other people, and when that fails.. they turn to anger and violence…. this is all so easy.. just stop fighting abut money, religion, and politics.. see each other as valid and wonderful humans.. Give what you want to have in your life.. no man is an island.. the golden rule… how many words of wisdom have echoed across the ages of humanity… and yet all we get is Americans saying …. "I don't need someone telling me how to live MY life."

Equality and liberty.. it is an American ideal for many. It can happen only if people stop fighting about religion, money, race, and all that other crap. There are two ways to get peace with an enemy.. destroy them, or make them your friend…. the first is selfish and only asks for continued anger and fighting… while the second requires one to make sacrifice their anger and learn how to accept another human being. I will always choose the latter.
Thanks ~ eric


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## superstretch (Jan 10, 2011)

Eric- I saw your comment the other day and appreciate what you did.. I apologize if I added to your frustration. I tend to be a bit dry and forward when I write and it conveys a sense of sternness or anger sometimes.

Walden sounds like a pretty epic school.. Sounds like it was a place you had to want to be at to really get the full benefit, something I don't see in the local public schools. Whether its a private school or homeschool (or something similar), it conveys a sense that school isn't a secondary thing.. when the students are dialed in, the parents are responsible and supportive, and the teachers are fully vested , great things can happen.

Your last paragraph is something that should be printed up and taped to everyone's bathroom mirror so they/we see it every morning.. good thoughts.


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## Dust_Maker (Jan 17, 2012)

I was just reading through this thread for curiosity and was pleased to see a more civil tone emerge than has often characterized controversial threads here. Well done LJs.

On the topic at hand I would suggest a paradigm shift from "You get what you pay for" to "You get what you take responsibility for." Several posts have mentioned this idea in part and I think it is an essential understanding of the issue.

I was homeschooled like Dan, but I like the homechooling that exelectician received too. Parental responsibility is the key, I think.


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## Drewtwo (Mar 10, 2012)

HorizontalMike hit the nail on the head!


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## RandyM68 (Jan 20, 2012)

Mike *thinks* like he hit himself in the head, repeatedly.


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## Drewtwo (Mar 10, 2012)

Nothing in the initial video sounds like the education I got considering that many of the well paid teachers I had in High School had Doctorates in their field of study. This was of course before the Republican party decided that there might be some profit in the education "business".


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## RandyM68 (Jan 20, 2012)

You and Mikey have it all figured out. The Republicans are intentionally sabotaging the education system to get more voters. No, wait a minute, most of the young morons vote democrat, where's the point in that. This has been a nice discussion about what works in education and what doesn't. It isn't about blaming one party or another, it's about raising smarter kids. Most people have shared what worked in their own education and what didn't. We can all pretty much agree that the current system isn't working, and many things can be improved. It's been a very nice discussion. Only a couple of people have tried to make it about politics.


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## Viking (Aug 26, 2009)

Well said Randy. It as been very peaceful for last 10 days or so. A clone is born?

Some have to take every discussion back to politics instead of really looking at the facts.

One of Mike's source articles he quoted above BUT, failed to note that the vast majority of comments disputed the authors biased opinion. Fancy that?

http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-636513


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## BobM001 (Jan 8, 2012)

Horace Zontlmyk?


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## Drewtwo (Mar 10, 2012)

Randy, You really should read Mike's post before you comment on it. Your answer makes it clear that you DID NOT read his post. To all who are paying attention instead of swallowing the spoonfed sheep dip from Fixed Noise, what the right does is defund the program they want to "privatise" (shift money to their friends) then they complain about the bad work being produced by the now underfunded program.


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## davidmicraig (Nov 21, 2009)

I am not sure if all of the problem is related to the schools these days or just the lifestyle of the modern age. When I was a kid, I could go to about any big box store in town and pick up an electronics kit (the old boards with springs for connections, wire, speakers, etc. ) and make my own radio or burglar alarm, that type of thing. A chemistry set could be picked up fairly cheap, microscopes and weather kits were abundant. Anyone remember the golden books on archealogy, geology, government, geography? I really didn't learn that much from school as a kid. Most of my education was from reading books, playing with science kits, exploring woods around my house and playing in the back yard. TV stations weren't round the clock and there weren't video games to distract us. We had to create our own fun and we were often tricked into learning  It didn't teach us everything but we did learn to be curious and where to look for information. That has changed a great deal over the last 40 years. Think about how much non-stop information goes into a kids head these days. Internet pages, music, non-stop TV, digital entertainment, etc. So much data goes in, the brains are overfilled before they hit the classroom. Attention spans drop because there really is no time to think. Time for contemplation was what I had as a child. I don't think kids even have time to remember what they read these days.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

^excellent post, David. My fiance' with a MS in archeology and a PhD in anthropology applied for a State job as a cultural director at the museum. They replied that she didn't qualify because anthropology had nothing to do with culture, lol. When I was in public schools in Texas in a NASA town (Clear Lake), I was exposed to everything you describe. In my free time, I tried to build a robot. I never built that robot. Why bother, right, I can order one off Amazon right now without even getting up off my chair. Home economics? Woodshop? Gym? Forget it. I'm going to sign up for Invented Languages: Klingon and Beyond or maybe Border Crossings, Borderlands: Transnational Feminist Perspectives on Immigration. I don't know what we really expected of our youth. 
http://collegeisforsuckers.com/2007/01/last-years-12-most-ridiculous-college-classes/
As a Republican, I'm confident that it's all my fault, lol.


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## jeepturner (Oct 3, 2010)

Apology accepted Al.


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## RandyM68 (Jan 20, 2012)

Drew, I noticed that you are a new member. You may not even know Mike yet, he disappeared not long after you joined up. You may have missed that Mike was a teacher and I started this thread to make him mad. He didn't argue that teachers are smart, he started his own forum to blame it on the Republicans. You talk about me being spoon fed a bunch of crap, while you are defending the poorest example of an educator and administrator that you could come up with. He has three college degrees and all he can think of is to call me a sock puppet, and post Bill Maher videos and act like that is factual. But anything on Fox news is bull********************, and I'm stupid for not knowing that. Are you a teacher, too?


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

you've all noticed the decline in the intelligence of our children … just the basics like making change for a dollar, or balancing a check book.

Actually no, I haven't noticed it. Balancing a checkbook or counting change are learned skills not intelligence and few practical skills are taught in school. My grandparents used to make those exact same criticisms back in the early 70's… that kids today can't balance a checkbook or count change… those people they were bitching about are the people posting here now. The world hasn't changed, we have changed, we are adults now.

Not to say we couldn't improve our education but the worst education in America are in inner cities and first you have to fix the socio-economic conditions that breed apathy. And there are still quite a few fighting to teach various religious subjects in school, fighting against certain subjects that their religion opposes, or want school prayer, that is the province of private schools and churches.


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## RandyM68 (Jan 20, 2012)

I used making change as the most blatant example. That is one of those basic skills that should mave been picked up in first grade along with basic shapes and colors. If you don't pick those up, you'll be lost after that. A few years ago, I was renting some DVDs. The total was $11.88 but the clerk forgot to punch in the $20 bill when he hit enter. I tried to tell him to just give me $8 and keep the rest, I didn't want him to have to count out twelve cents in pennies. He tried to void the sale and start over, when that didn't work, he started to call the manager, but decided to do it on paper first. After a couple of minutes of trying to remember subtraction, his buddy says, "Wait, I have a calculator on my cell phone." After a couple of more minutes, he comes up with the wrong answer. Both of these guys were in their late teens, when their education should still be fresh. Both were white, and carried new I-phones and wore $200 dollar tennis shoes. You can't blame it on socio-economic conditions and racism. Your grandparents were right. They were raising stupid kids back then, too. Those same idiots grew older, and are now in charge of your child's education, and the future of the country.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

That is one of those basic skills that should mave been picked up in first grade

See a lot of first graders working as cashiers? Counting change and counting back change are slightly different, the latter needs to be taught (practiced) in high school. It isn't so much that people don't know how but have just never done it except maybe on paper. The fifties are long past, we live in a different culture dominated by calculating machines and instant communication. When public education began, the focus was on learning skills useful in manufacturing but now we have a service based economy and we need to shift focus.

Both were white, and carried new I-phones and wore $200 dollar tennis shoes. You can't blame it on socio-economic conditions and racism.

I see what you did there but I never said anything about racism. The socio-economic conditions in inner cities negatively affects education and it can't be fixed without first changing the culture and breaking the cycle. Where I live we try to do this by busing students, it's very controversial, but otherwise the inner city culture dominates the classroom.

Those same idiots grew older, and are now in charge of your child's education, and the future of the country.

Like I said, us. Education is dominated by local politics but it's not just an educator problem it's a societal problem.


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## RandyM68 (Jan 20, 2012)

Wormil, I think you may have missed my original point of this whole forum. I know the education system is messed up, and it goes a lot deeper than just teachers. This was for one teacher only. I did it just to piss him off. It worked great. You'll notice the silence if you listen. As far as the rest, you and I agree on a lot, we've just been picking at little details. It is a societal break down problem. Most kids just don't want to learn anything, and they make fun of the ones that do. That is true even in better schools, but much worse in the poor ones. Cross town bussing works when you take the kids who want an education, to a place that they can fit in, and be allowed to learn. If you move the bad ones, too, it just pollutes the other school. I honestly have no idea how to change things, even with unlimited resources and the best teachers in the world. I could hire people to give a select few the best education possible. That is the easy part. What do you do with the rest of them? I don't know. Anyone who says they know how to fix this problem, is either a liar or a fool. I was just picking on the fool that tries to blame it all on the Republicans.


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## Viking (Aug 26, 2009)

Randy;

The "silence" is golden.


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