# I'm thru with the crosscut sled, Incra here I come



## TheWoodenOyster

Hey guys,

This past week, I made it a goal to replace my old not-so-accurate homemade crosscut sled with a more accurate new homemade one. I finally have the necessity for a perfect 90 as I have started down the dovetailing path. This was my 5th table saw sled, so I had gotten relatively decent at making them, at least I thought I had. I worked and worked and followed all of the steps and directions and I still couldn't get a perfect 90. I've tried all the tricks and adjustments and I have determined that if it isn't futile, it's pretty freaking close. I'm ready to end the frustration. I've hit that point where my shop time is more important than money, so I am thinking I want to get an Incra, JDS, or Kreg sled or miter gauge. I was thinking about the Incra 5000 sled as it looks pretty spectacular. The Incra 1000HD also looks good, but I figure $100 or so more gets me the 5000 sled instead of just the miter gauge.

What are the big differences between high end prefab sleds and miter gauges?

If the sled is more functional and comfortable, I'll splurge for it, but if it really presents no advantages over a good miter gauge, I don't see a reason to get the sled. The reason I ask is because in my 4 years of woodworking I have never used a miter gauge, so I am pretty clueless on how they perform vs sleds. Just so you know, the majority of the work I do is basic furniture building. The largest pieces I cut are probably bed rail type pieces, but that isn't often. Mostly tables and chairs and the like.


----------



## Tedstor

If you're just looking for perfect, 90~ cuts….try tweaking your existing miter gauge. The 30 year old dinosaur that came with my craftsman table saw is fine for 90~ cuts….once I got it set-up and locked-down just right. 
Of course, other angles is a different story. Which is why I just ordered an Incra V27 from Amazon.


----------



## TheWoodenOyster

Tedstor, I would give that a shot, but I bought my saw used and it didn't come with a miter gauge. Oops. The old fellow who sold me the saw called me later and said he forgot to give me the miter gauge. But, it was a 2 hour drive one way, and I didn't feel like going to get it.


----------



## RockyTopScott

I have the 5000 and you still need to tune the saw so the blade is parallel to the miter slots, etc.

I spent a good hour last night doing just that and never got it dead on. Ill try some more this weekend.

I am thinking a shooting board is the best way to a perfect 90 degree cut. I am going to build one very very soon.

Edit: try the incra miter slides on your sled and see if that help. Might be a less expensive way to start. Get the solid ones, not the aluminum.


----------



## TheWoodenOyster

Scott - I hear where you're coming from. I do need to get the dial indicator and set my saw blade perfectly parallel to my slots. I suppose that may help fix the problem, but I am sure I had more issues than just that.

I would make a shooting board, but it seems like that would be just as hard to perfect as a crosscut sled. Plus you end up trimming your stuff to different lengths and then you're back at square one.

I did a lot of work to make really accurate HDPE miter slides that are a perfect fit, so I know that isn't the issue.


----------



## timbertailor

You may also want to look at the Osbourne EB3 miter gauge.

The only time I use a sled any more is to cross cut a wide panel.

I use the Woodpecker Saw gauge for set up\calibration.


----------



## waho6o9

Incras' rock. I got this one and it's great:


----------



## TheWoodenOyster

Can that handle be moved so that it runs in the right slot instead of the left slot? My shop is tight and my saw it tight against a wall about 2 feet left from where the blade is.


----------



## RockyTopScott

You can move it. Yes


----------



## waho6o9

You can move the gauge to any miter slot.


----------



## mramseyISU

I've got the Kreg miter gauge and I really like that one for what it's worth. I looked at the incra one and thought about getting it I got mine at Menards during one of their 11% off everything sales. I can't say I'm dissapointed at all in my decision.


----------



## muleskinner

> Scott - I hear where you re coming from. I do need to get the dial indicator and set my saw blade perfectly parallel to my slots. I suppose that may help fix the problem, but I am sure I had more issues than just that.
> 
> - TheWoodenOyster


Am I wrong in thinking that even with the top of the line Incra guage and sled you're not going to fix the problem until the slots and blade are parallel? I would think that would be the first step.


----------



## BinghamtonEd

> Am I wrong in thinking that even with the top of the line Incra guage and sled you re not going to fix the problem until the slots and blade are parallel? I would think that would be the first step.
> 
> - muleskinner


I agree. Until you have the setup nailed down, it won't help. If your slot is not parallel to the blade, your work piece is going to move towards or away from the blade as you make your cut, no matter what gauge you put on there.


----------



## jdh122

One advantage of the sled over the miter gauge is the fact that it allows you to crosscut wider boards and panels. Even fancy miter gauges limit you to pretty narrow boards.. So they're great for making picture frames, but if you want to dovetail a blanket box you may have some issues. Or maybe I'm missing something - I've never used one of the after-market miter gauges.


----------



## dschlic1

Squaring up a miter gauge or a sled is a difficult and long process. First you have to have your saw aligned perfectly. For this you really need a dial indicator. Get the blade aligned to the miter slots within a couple of thousandths. Then you need to perform a five cut test with your sled or miter gauge. Measure the difference with a digital caliper, and then adjust the fence position using a dial indicator. After 3 or 4 hours you can probably get within 0.001" per inch or square. This is 10 thousands out of square over 10".


----------



## unbob

I have really struggled with getting good line up on the thin skinned ply doing 12" lengths using the lock miter joint. 8 critical cuts for length and square on a box, being much more then .002" out total really shows on the outer skin. A tuned sled seems to work best for me…..I have the Incra.


----------



## TheWoodenOyster

Thanks for the responses guys. I do realize that my blade needs to be calibrated parallel to my miter slots before anything will give me a perfect crosscut. I confess that I do need to do that and that this could be a part of the problem. That said, I was also having problems with the following that I don't see reasonable solutions to:

1. Solid wood fences will warp, and so will plywood ones. When we are talking about thousandths, it matters. MDF fences are just sort of wobbly and not as rigid as plywood or solid wood. My most recent attempt was 3 layers of 1/2" mdf and the fence still bowed under very slight pressure of me pushing the sled (and yes, the sled was riding very smoothly…)

2. The whole "pin each end" and make test cuts is all fine and dandy expect that a decently long fence made of a stable material like mdf will bow in the middle when pushed. So, your test cuts are really just dust in the wind because your fence isn't moving. And I don't really want to do test cut after test cut screwing the fence in at 4 different spots.

3. I really wish that I could trust feeler gauges and clamps to hold a fence in place as I screw it into the sled, but I just don't. I might trust it to .005 or so, but not any more than that. When you need to be making .002 adjustments, I don't really see how clamps can hold it that perfectly.

It takes me about 4 hours to make a solid sled and I make them too often. I think a prefab miter gauge or sled would probably replace 3 to 4 different sleds and would last much longer. So, when you consider the time and money, it just seems reasonable to buy one for your finish cuts.


----------



## JeffP

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think one advantage that the Incra (and probably other) purchased solutions have is that they have "stuff" in the slots that takes out the "slop".

If you build a crosscut sled, you are likely just making a fixed width piece that slides in the slot. Of necessity, it must fit loosely enough in the slot that it can move freely.

If I recall correctly, the Incra products have spring loaded wheels/guides that fit more tightly into the slots while still allowing the gauge/sled to move freely forward and back.

Taking out that slop may well be the difference between "almost 90" and "dead on".


----------



## JeffP

One other thought on the Incra…

Ever notice how a Lamborghini or similar sports car "looks fast" while it is sitting still in a parking lot?

In much the same way, I find that Incra tools "look precise" while they are just sitting there. Not sure how they do that, but it just LOOKs like you couldn't make a sloppy cut with one of their tools.

I find myself wondering if there might be some element of self-fulfilling prophecy in using super sweet tools like that. I rather think I would gaze upon the work I did with such tools as if it were sent down from the heavens and simply MUST be perfect.


----------



## TheFridge

I didn't feel like dealing with a sled so I got the 1000hd. That and i didn't have the extra $.

Easy to adjust and pure awesome.


----------



## jacquesr

Hi guys,
I feel compelled to chime in as I have been setting up my Miter Express Sled with my 1000HD for the first time beginning a few days ago.
I was about making the decision to make…. a home made sled for 90degrees.
The product is great (I love Incra). But this still requires a good amount of finicking.
I am not yet at the stage where I can just put the workpiece and cut.
We should start a discussion just about that product. I found out many things that could save you guys a lot of time….
I am planning to give Neil at Incra a call later this week to double-check a few things…


----------



## rad457

LOL! we are talking about Wood here right? couple % humidity and all bets are of! Maybe talk 1/32" or 1/64"


----------



## fuigb

I agree with Rad: wood does not stay put. It could also be that I'm a lousy craftsman but in either case I design in a way that minimizes visible 90s and miters. Lips, overhangs and the like spare me frustration and give me results thatpleasing to the eye.


----------



## waho6o9

The king of shop made cross cut sleds is Wlliam Ng:






William Ng offers classes as well:
http://wnwoodworkingschool.com/

HTH

Or how about an Incra 5000?


----------



## TheWoodenOyster

Jeff - you are definitely onto something about the self fulfilling prophecy of high end tools. We expect them to be so good that even if they aren't, we still convince ourselves they are. Fortunately, I feel that most of the time you get what you pay for. Lie Nielsen planes are a stellar example, pay a lot, get a performance tool. Veritas products in general have been a disappointment to me. I feel like I am getting hosed a bit. The MK2 honing guide was a nightmare and the dovetail saw I got from them was pretty lackluster as well. I haven't yet convinced myself that those are good tools.

Rad- I hear you on the fact that we are dealing with wood here. While that is true, there are times when a few thousandths makes the difference, especially when cutting joinery. Seems to me like wood movement once a piece is assembled is not a big deal because it holds itself together. However, if you start with out of square stock as you are making joints 1/64th can be an issue.


----------



## 8iowa

I have the INCRA 5000 in my Upper Peninsula "Workshop in the Woods". Here in Gainesville, FL (where I winter) I have less space and the INCRA 1000 miter express is perfect. Both will allow accurate crosscuts up to 24 inches.

Alignment of the blade to the slots is very important. Use a dial indicator set-up. To set the miter fence accurately 90 degrees to the table slots use a very high quality combination square like the Starret. I even have a 24" blade for the square to further improve accuracy.

Both the 5000 and the 1000 enable you to cut very accurate angles as well. These are great products.


----------



## TarHeelz

The lack of a blade parallel to the miter slot is not a "part" of the problem. It likely is the entirety of the problem. A rigid fence can be glued up easily (mine is 2 3/4" pieces of ply backed up by a 2×4 (the rough foundation of the sled).

I also never bothered with making my own rails. I also didn't bother with two rails. One of these was plenty: http://www.rockler.com/rockler-18-24-aluminum-miter-bar

I'm certainly no fine woodworker. If i can get amazing accuracy after a 5 cut test, you most certainly can.

Good luck!


----------



## DrDirt

I have the Incra 3000 SE and while it is great, I cannot cross cut anything wider than about 8 inches, because the miter bar falls off the back of the saw.
never tried dovetailing on the tablesaw.
Panel cutting is the sole reason I have a crosscut sled.

In fact I just came in from the shop after gluing up a new back fence for mine. The old one was 3/4 red oak and developed a bow that made the center of the sled higher than the sides, until I push down.
I followed the Marc Adams article in fine woodworking and am making it out of laminated MDF. The whole sled is in the latest FWW.

laminated 5 strips of 3/4 X 2 inch MDF for a 3.75 inch tall fence, that wont move with weather and is really dead flat!

Clean up the face and get it squared up tomorrow after work.


----------



## Lsmart

I have an Incra with the big extended fence and I love it, but I still go to the sled for most of my crosscutting and mitering needs, mostly just use the miter for hogging out tenons with a dado blade.

That said I spent several hours yesterday re jointing and squaring my sled fence in response to the winter humidity change. The birch fence had developed a twist, the sled was built in the spring when humidity was high.


----------



## ShawnMcG

i've had great luck with Incra


----------



## Andybb

You can make your sled as accurate as the Incra IMHO. Zero slop in the slides and square to the blade. Square is square and has been since the Big Bang. They didn't have an Incra when they built the pyramids. That being said, Incra makes a nice looking sled but it still has to be adjusted.


----------



## Andybb

> I have the Incra 3000 SE and while it is great, I cannot cross cut anything wider than about 8 inches, because the miter bar falls off the back of the saw.
> 
> - DrDirt


I can reliably cut 12" boards with that little tab that screws on the front end of the bar that locks it into the slot.


----------



## Putttn

I have the 5000 and the 1000hd and they're great but I came across a great tool called MiterSet. I'm going to get that as well to see what works best. They also have a Mitersegment that sets angles perfect for up to 22 sides I believe. Has had great reviews for simplicity and accuracy and is not that expensive. Check it out. David Stanton has a great video on why and how it is so good.


----------

