# How much is your woodworking worth ?



## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

After viewing numerous projects on LJs I can't help but wonder how much people get for there work . In particular boxes, boards and pens. Since they seem to be the most popular projects. When I see boxes like
David,Andy,Autumn',Martyn's to name a few plus boards like Larrys and so many others, I can't help but wonder how much these and other folks sell there products for. It just seems so time consuming to make many these projects how can one make a living building these wonderful works of art. It might be rude of me to ask but just how much do you get for these items.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

I occasionally sell a box to a friend for the cost of materials. But to actually pay myself a fair wage for the time invested, I'd probably have to get $300-$400 for the average box. I don't see that kind of market demand, so I really don't try to sell them.


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## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

How many people do this kind of thing to make money and how many make them just for the pleasure , not even thinking about making a living out of them?


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## Dennisgrosen (Nov 14, 2009)

if you try to sell those small things for a living
wasn´t it time to take peoples fals imagenation from them
about wooodwork doesn´t cost
do as those who work with Clay and the glassblower they claim 
there work to be art (one of) and it seems to me that there is a lot
of people who is willing to pay more than 400 $ for those things ( I have even seen prices on 5000 $ )
and they have done it for decates
and now when they seems to cut down on woodworking classes in schools
and nobody learn it , and if they want to learn it they have to wait untill
they can learn it as grown up the sameway as the glassblower


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## j_olsen (Sep 19, 2009)

Jim you've posed a good question here-My last posted project was a twin bed for a friend which i did for material costs (300)-I was curious what I could have charged and someone had posted a spread sheet to figure costs for a project which was pretty comprehensive - tool depreciation, overhead, vehicle deperecation and so on-I downloaded and looked through it and stripped all the costs i wasn't worried about and lowered my per hour labor from 20 to 15 and the number it came up with to me was outrageous-over 1200 for a painted poplar bed!!! 
I for one have a tough time thinking that my work is anywhere near worth charging that kind of money for a very simple item and would I pay for that item even knowing that it was handcrafted 
I am going to watch this to see the other comments


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## DAWG (Oct 23, 2009)

I hear what your saying Jeff, and if your building something for a friend covering cost is usually all you might ask for. My problem is the amount of people who know you do woodworking and will tell you they want you to build this or that, but then act so surprised (even offended or insulted) when you give them a price. I would not ask somebody to build me anything custom knowing that it's better than store bought in materials and assembly and then act shocked over the price. I know most of you like me could have a full-time job+ if you made things for free, but starve to death trying to sell custom furniture. My wife has a long list of free stuff I can build and that list is full. With that said I'm always open to helping someone build something in my shop if they're willing to help build it and buy the materials. Jeff your labor is worth $20.00 per hour if not more and if they don't think so make your wife something.

a1Jim I charged $1800.00 for the Cherry Bookcase (they gave me $2000.00), $1400.00 for the DVD Case and $400.00 for the Louisville Slugger sign. These prices would not support full-time.

Thanks for the post a1Jim very interesting.


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## j_olsen (Sep 19, 2009)

Dawg I'm right there with ya on the shocked look people give you when you give them a price-it's like they think you owe them something-my question to them would be - when was the last time you spent a ton of time on something and gave it to me for free??
BTW-No wife here!!!


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## Gregn (Mar 26, 2010)

To be honest with ya a1Jim I couldn't tell you. Although I have been asked to make some pieces and told them that my work is priceless and that you couldn't afford it. How can you put a price on love? I just make what I want to make. I don't like to make much of any one thing its seems like mass production and thats not for me.


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## SchotterWoodworking (Feb 7, 2010)

This is an interesting topic for me as I am trying to decide on pricing for my small clocks as a side income. I've got a full time gig in a custom cabinet shop but I would really like to make some side money to support my woodworking habits. I mean, how much am I worth; rather, how much are people willing to pay for custom furniture?


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## jimswoodshop (Jun 1, 2010)

I have taught woodworking and worked in retail at a couple wood working retail outlets. Here are some observations that I have noticed. 
I found that most people who say they are making a living at woodworking are misinformed about what it takes to make a living. Most have a second income retirement disability or a supportive spouse. 
A lot of people are believe that they can make a living piddling around in a shop making what they want and while having a pleasant day in the shop environment.
A lot of people make one of a kind items have not counted the design hours delivery sales time or commission, cost of materials and time on consignment. 
Walmart is not our competition nor is any other mass marketer.
Small shop and small overhead does not mean less expensive product than the big producers.
The consumer needs to be educated about what they are seeking out when comparing and looking at our woodenware. Two pcs that have the same function are not always the same. 
To be profitable one need to be not only good to great in skills be marketable and knowledgeable but has to be something I have not spoke of yet and that is fast. Chopping out hand cut dovetails as quickly as most do with a machine (including setup) and incorporating time saving techniques wherever possible , Patterns, jigs, reducing machine setups whenever possible, and the biggest time saver is reducing shop interruptions like visitors and the telephone and other time thieves.
Several that I have met have little exposure to what a difference there is in detail in a $500.00 chest and a $2000.00 chest of similar made by a skilled cabinetmaker.
None of the woodworkers that I know that are not successful have a clue about marketing of their woodworking or themselves. Yes marketing yourself is as important as your product.
There are a lot of good under valued products in craft shows and festivals buy many people seeing a better way of working and making a living that they will sell cheap just so they can make expenses and do it again. 
Generating sales does not mean making a profit or making a living.
I am not trying to cheese anyone off in this post but simply giving my observations. This was written quickly and probably has many errors of grammar and spelling, Be kind.
If you're wondering what my gig is I work for a company and manage a shop making furniture and accessories out of pine and engineered wood. It pays the bills and has insurance. I also make 3 to 4 commissioned pcs a year in my spare time. This work pays well (I charge $25.00 an hour for my labor and shop and 1.5 times the cost of materials) It has built my shop and tools it feeds my creative side and builds my future retirement income business. Maybe someday I will quit my day job and do custom works but I doubt it. I think I will retire at 62 and supplement my income making my 3 to 4 pcs a year.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Lots of good points Jim . There are a number of things you won't change with a big percentage of woodworkers. #! They under value there products or give them away. #2 most are not good business people even long term pros. #3 They short cut finishing with old products like Blo. tung oil etc.
Remember folks I said *"Big percentage"* 
I wish I could retire at 62 that's what I am. What does that say about a 20+ year woodworker financial planning or being a good business person?
Back to the question how much do folks sell their boxes and boards for?


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## woodsmithshop (Sep 10, 2008)

in the area I live, it would be called a "utility class area", I was told years ago, there are 3 classes to consider,( in a monetary sense) utility class, craftsman class, and fine art class, most people in this area do not think your time is worth much , and the small amount of wood that you use could not cost you that much, so they don't want to pay what something is worth or what you feel you should get for it, they always think they could build it cheaper themselves.
much of the time I feel lucky to make 2- 3 dollars an hour if that. so most of my work is for the family now, I quit doing custom work.


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

The spectacles cases I make, my wife says I should charge $60 a pop. Mind you, I can make 10 a day if I jig up for it (I know, because I have done it). It wouldn't matter if these were made from pine or bubinga, that cost difference is only a dollar or two for the amount of wood used.

As an example of where true craftsmanship makes a difference, one of my wife's friends asked for a complicated quilt, king sized. The pattern is called "double wedding ring". Anyone who cares to go look up how many pieces to cut out and sew together to make the pattern will find it is hundreds of pieces. At $5/hour, this would cost $800, not counting the material! Needless to say, the gal went and bought a quilt from wallyworld. It turned out lumpy and started to pull apart on the first washing. That's the difference. My wife makes a quilt, it lasts for decades, not months.

This is what originally drove me to make my own spectacles case: the $5 and $10 made in chinee cases can last as little as three weeks before they self destruct. I had to drop my wood one 4 times before the thing cracked, and it is over a year old- and I repaired it with screws. Next time I'll use dovetails, as soon as I figure out how to mass produce dovetails in my jig.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Don't be too said about not making it at 62 Jim. There are milions who scrimped to save and invest. The liars on Wall Street destroyed their plans. At least you got to do what yoiu wanted to do  Most of them worked at a job they hated for an a$$*%& boss.


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## tdv (Dec 29, 2009)

I wish I could make a living out of producing what I love Jim maybe you will get the odd client willing to pay but where I live in this economic climate people look at the price of IKEA (Swedish mass produced crap..can I say that here?) then look at the cost of craftsman built & they invariably go the cheap route. I think the modern culture is change your style evry few years so now a piece of furniture seems to have no long term value except to people like us & our friends & families who receive the heritage pieces we build. It would be interesting to hear comments from some of the professionals who use Lumberjocks
God bless
Trevor


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## LateNightOwl (Aug 13, 2009)

Good question, Jim. When I worked my trade, it was straight-forward and easy to set my prices. People need plumbing work. But crafts… or art… that's tough!

An acquaintance from Atlanta saw my Tight Weave board today and wants one just like it. I really have no idea what I am going to tell her. Honestly, I'm still at that stage where I am a little surprised when a project comes out looking good. LOL None of that means she shouldn't pay a "fair" price… whatever that is! Another factor is wondering if she has a clue of the worth, or will she have a fit if it is more than Walmart prices. Also, just because I am a hobbyist, I don't want to undercut someone else's bread and butter.


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## LeeJ (Jul 4, 2007)

Great topic Jim;

On many of these small projects, which I've built for the fun of it, I just give them away. The reason I do that is if I told them what the thing would cost if they hired me to build them, they would think I'm trying to steal from them. It actually embarrasses me to tell them what it would cost. People are used to the prices on throw away products, coming from Walmart or Ikea.

Recently, a Developer I used to do work for with my construction business (millions of dollars worth), called me wanting an entertainment cabinet. He started the conversation by saying he saw something at Ikea that would work, but thought he may as well have something built. He mentioned the thing he looked at was around $4,000.00 for enough sections to make up a 17" long cabinet. He was trying to fill an entire wall.

I told him $1,000.00 per foot. I came up with that price simply because he was under the impression my price would be around the same price as Ikea. Frankly, it irritated me the he could be so naive, or think that I would be tempted to compete with Ikea for such a magnificant project.

His response was he would be embarrased to spend so much for a piece of furniture. Yet he feels his time is worth about $500.00 dollars per hour. I told him to find someone that specializes in working with Melamine. It takes all kinds.

Lee


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## Dennisgrosen (Nov 14, 2009)

LoL….that was a good one Lee
he takes 500$ pr. hour and wont pay you 50$
he shuold be ashamed
Dennis


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## tyskkvinna (Mar 23, 2010)

I do not make my full living from woodworking, I do some other things. I would be happy if I made all my income from wood, but I don't want to give up those other things. But the money I charge for my woodwork is, I feel, a fair representation of my time and effort put in it.

I charge $50/hr + 1.5X materials. Pretty straightforward. A lot of my materials are recycled/otherwise gotten for free (hello dumpster diving) but I try to guess the market worth of them.

I was charging less but I had more than a few people (who were buying things from me) tell me to raise them. I did. I'm still selling at the same rate.

Granted, most of what I sell requires a lot less time than much of what the other people in this thread make. I sell a lot of photo frames, bookends, that kind of thing. Small, quick, out the door.

Incidentally, I charge less for my woodworking than I do my photography. Since we're being honest about pricing here - I get $75/hr minimum for wedding/event photography. Usually it's closer to $120/hr. I don't do a lot of weddings but it makes up for it in price. That's strictly my time, prints and albums and whatnot are not included.


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

Keep it in perspective, Lee- to him, you're just some guy with a saw under one arm and a gallon of finish and a stiff brush in the other. [/snark] Let's face it folks, there are few people in the world who are going to value what we do. I've seen your work, Lee, and it's really nice. However, high craftsmanship is essentially meaningless to most people. We recognize it here, but as TDV said, people change their style frequently and can't afford to buy something nice that will last. We really do live in a throwaway culture. It's worse with clothes- those "fashions"? psshh.


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## majeagle1 (Oct 29, 2008)

Wow, what a great subject…........... I have always had a dilema as to what to charge.
I don't make a living on woodworking, however, I do try to somewhat supliment my income and pay for my tools as I can. Having said that, here is the way I look at for myself: I am retired ( 66 ) and am not working at all, therefore In effect, I have nothing to do with my time so I make no money for my "time". 
Now, I go and have fun in the workshop, create a box or something for someone, I charge the for the materials + whatever I feel is appropriate. For my larger 6 drawer chests I charge $350.00 ( should be closer to $500.00) and the humidors I charge $250.00 ( should be closer to $350.00) and the standard jewelry box I charge $175.00 ( should be closer to $250 - 300 ). This is only on the internet and by word of mouth. I am going to try to do some shows next year so, yes, my pricing will go up closer to what it should be.

Even though I don't charge alot, I still make what I call a "profit". Again, my time is free anyway and I am having fun, so my profit ends up buying me more toys ( tools ) (wood ) and I end up happy !!

You may think I am crazy but, it works for me for now….......... and I am getting a customer base and repeat requests.

Let me know what you think of my "simple logic"..................


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Sounds like retired guy logic having fun buying a few more tools and more wood to do it again )


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## stnich (May 24, 2010)

For me it depends on the project. The clocks that I make are by the piece. I make at least 50-60 different models. I also make various barometers which I also sell by the piece. When I do commission work I either have a contract price or I work by the hour. I have a few regular customers that trust me to treat them fairly which is what I do. It used to be more regular than it is today because of the downturn in the economy.


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## majeagle1 (Oct 29, 2008)

That's right Topamax…......... as long as I can keep on doin' it !!!


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## Jesse_Rei (May 23, 2010)

a long time costomer of mine who we just did a $100k kitchen for said she loved my celtic box and asked how much i wanted for it. i told her $200 (which i consider a hellova deal for her considering the time i spent on it.) the way she looked at me youd had thought i called her ugly lol..


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Trouble is people have no idea what it takes to make a nice box or what the materials cost.


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## tyskkvinna (Mar 23, 2010)

The point of heirloom pieces is very good. While a painted piece of furniture will certainly be of very high quality and way better than anything I can buy in a Box Store, it's probably also not something that I will want to keep forever and have to hand down to the grandkids. I'd be more likely to save my pennies or something that really screams "fine woodworking" - showing natural grain, timeless style (or more historical style, if my tastes ran that way), beautiful wood grain, etc.

But, I also think a lot of people assume that getting something painted or out of a cheaper wood will be dramatically cheaper… when it in the end most of the price goes to labour, not materials.


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## Pete_Jud (Feb 15, 2008)

Jim, these are some of the Items I make, and for Atom, I do the dove tails, a hundred or more at a sitting. Granted my market is a nitch market, but the products still move out the door. My prices are on the web site for the lights.

http://www.offthegridlights.com


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## stefang (Apr 9, 2009)

There are people who are willing to pay high prices for handmade things, but they must be very special and the maker must also have good access to his market. Only a very few people have the marketing skills and/or contacts to do this. Another big issue is having a well known name, which adds a lot of value when folks brag about their acquisitions.

Small complicated things take just as much time and sometimes longer to make as larger nice pieces. A nice jewelry box vs a piece of furniture for example. Much more utility from the furniture for the same money equals a much bigger market.

After I had been doing woodworking for awhile, I joined a group of other crafts folk who operated their own gift store. We paid 10% of our sales to the store and we took turns running the store. there were a lot of things there including some mass produced small cast statues slathered with a brown paint and highlighted with bronze. The motifs were similar to the good stuff, but very poorly done with no artistic merit whatsoever. Unfortunately this is what the public bought because it was at least half the price of everything else in the store and was an easy gift for the mother-in-law or aunt May. The result was that we were being used as free labor to sell mass produced junk. I sold most of my stuff to an artist who sold her oil paintings through the store. She appreciated all the work that went into my stuff. Not too good with mainly one customer, so I quit the group. I would rather make my stuff as gifts to family members and friends who appreciate and cherish them. the payback is so much more rewarding.

The only similarities between professionally built and hobby built are the end products. Making those products and selling them at a profit is a whole different ball game. Lacking a big name in the design area, a professional shop has to have very good quality and be very productive to succeed and they have to know their market well enough to get buyers for their stuff.

Please tell me if I'm wrong about these things Jim. I'm sure with your experience you have a pretty good handle on it.


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## ND2ELK (Jan 25, 2008)

Hi Jim

I know you were asking about smaller projects but I really feel for a lot of the people trying to make a living doing woodworking these days. I always worked for prison industries my whole working career except for first 5 years when I taught. For 9 years I had a custom cabinet business on the side besides working at the prison full time and made a lot of money doing it. The biggest problem then was I put more hours in my part time job a week than at my full time job. I was a lot younger then and still burnt out after nine years. I even started doubling and tripling my bids and still had too much work. Two years ago when I retired and put in a new shop and thought I might like to build some cabinets and furniture on the side. I gave out 100's of cards and about 20 bids. I never got one bid. I figured if I could not make $20 or $25 dollars an hour it was not worth my time. I made $15 to $25 dollars an hour back in the 70's and had more work than I could handle. I am so thankful I am retired, don't really need the extra money and decided to just build things for my family, church and friends. Man has times changed! I know some people do real well yet today but I can also see where it is a lot tougher now than before for a lot of people.

God Bless
tom


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Tom, adjusted for inflation, the average wage earners hourly rate is down 40% from when you were averaging $20 an hour back in the 70s. There are higher priorities than buying custom made goods.


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## BillyJ (Aug 18, 2009)

You bring up many good points, stefang. I, like many others posting here, do most of my work quid pro quo. I marvel at the prices people are able to command. I believe there are three (probably more) categories - carpenter, woodworker, and artist. I place myself somewhere between the carpenter and woodworker. My work is what I consider, ok, but I would probably starve to death if I had to support myself with my work. I appreciate the artistic work, and know I would never be able to even come close to replicating most of the work I see on these pages.

The pens I make, I give away (cost + a little extra). It amazes me that people are able to make pens and sell them for $100 - $200. I'm glad they can, and will leave it to them.


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## antmjr (Sep 7, 2009)

I agree with Mike too: marketing is by far more important then the quality of a product. Maybe it's sad, but it's the truth. In the center of many Italian touristic towns (I'm thinking of Venezia for instance) you may find hundreds mediocre artisans selling their mediocre products ("artistic" masks for instance) for lots of money. Tourists aim to have a souvenir and are willing to pay that money. So it's impossible to determine the value per se of a wooden artistic product without knowing its possible marketing.
--
Just a thought about professional/amateur: in one of his books, John Gardner (who was a great American boatbuilder and popularizer) wrote that building some small types of traditional wooden crafts is so time consuming, that they can be built quite only by amateurs now, because only amateur's time is worth nothing.


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## woodspark (May 8, 2010)

Is there anyone actually making a living out of small fine woodwork items? I am specifically referring to the "works of art" as Jim correctly calls them. Sure, some survive through producing small items but then it is all about production and speed. The same thing over and over, as fast as possible!
I make my living from woodwork, a part of it through small items. Two things we have to quantify: 
1. Making a living is a relative concept and does not mean making loads of money. I live a very basic life, my pickup is over 20 years old, and most of my machinery was bought used and old (they all received much TLC though!). I'm a one-man shop and my overheads are extremely low. I'm not big spender, I'm not a consumer. Heck, I don't even have a TV! (I prefer it that way!)
2. To have any chance of selling enough small items, the price must be low. Fact, we live in a consumer era and compete against the Chinaman. Remember, the target market in his case is the average consumer. For the price to be low, I have to be fast. For example, one of my lines is wooden pencil boxes. I have to make 10 in a day to make it profitable for me(profitable again being relative!). Remember the retail shop still has too add his commission. Sure, I would like to do inlays and fancy wooden hinges. How many customers are prepared to pay 3 or 5 or 10 times more for what is still just a box?

I do make the "works of art". They go to galleries on consignment at a price. Sometimes they will sit there for months before the right buyer comes along. Jam on top of the bread!

I do all this because I love the frigging shavings! I chose this way for so many benefits that cannot be measured in dollars. It is tough sometimes but a thing that comes easy is not as satisfying. Every paradise has its snake!

There are lots to say on a very interesting topic but I'm already writing too much, so, over and out!


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## doordude (Mar 26, 2010)

Jim you've gotten alot of good responces. my two cents is, i travel around northern calif. alot and visit some art and furniture studios and see a lot jewlery size boxes, as best as any you see here made by LJ'ers, and these boxes are priced from $300 to 450.00 each. but the store front gets there cut so the artise may only get 25 to 35% percent of that.
so go figure….i guess if you make enough boxes and spread them around the country you just might make a good living.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

Interesting question, Jim!


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## degoose (Mar 20, 2009)

Just to add a little bit from the land downunder… boxes.. I just got a commission on a small jewellery box for AU$250, Man boxes are 150 and most of the bandsaw boxes are from 50 up to the 150 mark altho this is still a little low.. boards are from 60 through to 250 I can command far more than most of the board makers here due to the uniqueness .. Furniture is now a smaller part of the business but then I am not getting any younger… If a commission comes in… the price is right up there…maybe 3 to 4 times what I would have charged not that long ago… if I get it well then I make money… if Not then I don't have to make it… I am finding that a lot of the people who have my work appreciate the quality and are moving away from the imports..


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

Pete_Jud: HOT Ziggity! I love the whole LED/CC market! I just wish that the stuff was in a better price range (i.e., replacing incandescent lights in homes). When the incremental breakthroughs for that and solar panels finally come together, we (the world) will be saving mega-millions on energy (and health- for example the LED lights in South America replacing kerosene lanterns). I've bookmarked your site and will back to visit.

Sorry for the off-topic…


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

I'm still here soaking this all up great input everyone I thank you all for you telling your thoughts on this subject.
To Mike to answer your question . I don't remember a time you were wrong and this time is no exception.


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## Billinmich (Mar 8, 2008)

I'm retired and mainly make things for the mrs.and kids and the grand kids.My son will have me make him something and pay materials.I do say that I do get some nice fathers day ,bday ,and Xmas gifts for my hard work also daughter and daughter-in-law pay me in dinners an cakes ,which is ok by me.Sold a few boxes but no money in it and couldn't make a living doing it.Sold my neighbor a cedar chest and thats about it.Jim boxes I sell for 40 or 45 dollars which is not enough but I only sell a few anyway.


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## Rogue (Nov 24, 2008)

Great subject! I am a fulltime selfsupported woodworker. My wife has contributed off and on but I'm the main bread winner. She helps me alot in my business. We argue about this alot. How much do I charge? We do bids together and I think thats the key. She wants me to charge more and I'm always pulling for a lower price for the customer. This opossition creates a balance. To answer the question I charge $40 per hour and I figure the price of my off that and the price of material. Projects thathave been around awhile tend to get the price lowered. Basicly though it dosent matter what you charge its the promotion that gets the stuff out the door. If people think your worth it they'll pay it.


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## BertFlores58 (May 26, 2010)

I hope not late yet… I had never experience getting money from the boxes had made. It is always controlled by my good heart. THE PRICE IS PRICELESS all the time. I am gifted and so my boxes are always a GIFT… Hey that's true and most of the time, I feel extra happy and joyful in return. Janna's box started a chain of gift giving from my side, it had made a lot of story to tell. Followed by My Mom Gregoria's box, and now the latest and most dramatic… (still I have to make the blog) MEGAN'S BOX...  you take a reading first why my BOXES cannot be valued by money.. but it will remain PRICELESS ….


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## Richforever (Mar 19, 2008)

My two cents: it depends on the market segment or segments that you have chosen to serve. The product or service is not important. It is the feeling that the client associates with throwing the money at you that matters. The product or service is like the carrier wave that transmits the feeling to the client.

For example, a fancy, well-made box to one market segment might represent tradition and the sense of family. It will be an heirloom and passed down for generations. That market segment might pay hundreds or thousands of dollars for the feeling of tradition. For them, the family is invaluable. If the price isn't really high, they won't buy, because it doesn't match what they want (the tradition within the family).

For another market segment, the same box might represent a fancy place to put things i.e., the feeling of efficiency or order in their lives. They can get boxes to give them that feeling at a dime store. Nothing handmade could even attract their attention because the price would be too high for the feeling of order or efficiency.

If a business hasn't selected a market segment to serve; studied the needs of the clients; the prospects understand that the business is just for money and hasn't earned the right to ask for a sale. In my opinion, most businesses don't even have a clue who their customers are or what feelings they want to buy.

Hope this helps.


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## huff (May 28, 2009)

Jim, good topic and a lot of good responses. As a full time (one man shop) custom woodworker, that relies 100% on my ability to market, design, sell, build, finish, deliver and clean the shop, income is very important to me. Not to get rich, but to live a modest life style while enjoying what I do. I love building the smaller projects, such as the boxes and boards, but not to make a living at. I sell a few during the year, but mostly they are gifts. I would starve to death if I depended on selling my small stuff. Why? Because I've never taken the time to study the market, find the right clientle and market them. The biggest problem that keeps me from pushing that market is the simple fact of time. My shop labor rate is $50/hr. (has to be….....to cover overhead, insurances, all my taxes,licenses, marketing and all the other expenses related to runnng a business). It's easier for me to get paid for my time, building a $5,000.00 desk or a $10,000.00 entertainment center then selling a $400.00 box or $275.00 cutting board. 
I think Rich just made a good point…...most businesses don't have a clue who their customers are or who they should be targeting. I keep hearing about this company called Ikea and how hard it is to compete with a company like that. I never heard of Ikea before, so I had to go on line to see what all the fuss was about. That's not my customer base. Don't get me wrong, I always have people ask me about my work and they have a heart attack when I give them a price. Whether you are selling big stuff or small stuff, you need to know your market and the customer you would like to sell to. If your work is "ART", or high end furniture or cabinets, then don't worry about the Wal-mart, Ikea, big box stores type customer, but take the time to find your market. 
Bottom line….....As a one man shop, I only have so many hours a week to market, design, build, finish and deliver my work, so I have to find the customer that fits me and my work. So, it's a full time job, wearing all the hats in your own company and it's a real juggling act of how many hours to devote to each part of my business. (So I can go to the bank). LOL. 
I'm talking strickly from the full time woodworker side of this and it's different if you have another income to rely on or it's just a hobby. But you still need to know who you want to sell to and who your customers are. The cheaper your price, the more you get to compete with Ikea, The higher the quality, craftsmanship and price, the more you set yourself apart from them. (Much smaller customer base, but it's there!)
Good luck to everyone, whatever your goal is.


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## closetguy (Sep 29, 2007)

I agree with Richforever and Huff. I've said this in my blogs many times that our customers do not shop at Wal-Mart and Ikea. There are people out there who appreciate what we can give them and will pay an appropriate price for our work. But, because of the recession, that market segment has narrowed considerably making us have to work harder to find those customers.

My income has always been centered on custom casework. You can't go into a store and buy "out of the box" built in cabinets. This was always a lucrative business for me and price was never an issue in this market segment. These customers still have a significant amount of disposable income, but they are being a little more prudent with how they spend it much more so than in the past.

I started doing the craft show thing a few years ago hoping to offset the reduced cash flow on the casework side. Selling small items, whether they are boxes, cutting boards, etc, is a numbers game. You have to make them in quantity to get the price down to a reasonable level where people will actually buy them. Then you need to be at a show that has a lot of customer participation, good demographics, and good weather. I've had bad shows where I barely covered expenses, outstanding shows, and rained out shows. I go to one show and sell completely out of a category and at the next show not sell one item in that category. It's like the wild, wild west, and yes, craft show customers shop at Wal-Mart. This is a different segment than I am use to dealing with. But the key is to make items that can't be found at Wal-Mart. My items run in the $5 to $100 range.

I can make a profit selling small items, but in this economy I cannot see making a living at it without another source of income. I was making a good living in custom casework with yearly sales in the $200,000+ range. It's hard to replicate this as a street vendor selling $35 cutting boards. There was a guy at a recent show from out of state selling $350+ boxes. They were very nicely done with highly figured and exotic woods. He sold one all weekend. I did $1,000 selling 29 items and he probably had as much labor in the one box he sold that I had in all these 29 items. It was a poor show for everyone, but I walked away with more cash because I play the numbers game with a lot of lower cost, easy to make in quantity items. Everyone is passionate about something. This guy was passionate about boxes and he was good at it. I loved his boxes and felt they were appropriately priced. But his price points narrows his audience significantly. I'm passionate about woodworking, but because I do it full time, I am more passionate about money. Call me a whore, but I choose to sell what creates the most cash flow. Lower priced items appeal to a wider audience, particularly at the type of shows I attend.

The price is the price. You have to calculate the costs, overhead, and all the expenses associated with running a business to come to the appropriate price for the widget. If the price you have to sell the widget for is too high for what it is, drop it and find something else to make. I've done that many times where I thought something was a good item to sell, but after building the prototype I realized that I couldn't reach the target price point because of the labor cost. If you are making 50 cents an hour on an item, you need to dump it. It's easy to get $50+ an hour doing large casework projects, but you can't expect to recover that labor rate on small items. Thus, you are forced into building in volume and selling in volume to create reasonable cash flow and profit. This does not mean low quality. You can still make high quality, high volume items by utilizing jigs and streamlining processes. The bottleneck is always with sanding and finishing. This is where the difference in quality is evident to the customer's eye, but also where your labor costs will make or break you.

I'm an optimist. I happen to think that there is a way to make a living with smaller items in the $250 to $500 range selling to an under served niche market. I'm currently exploring one of those areas right now. In the mean time, I sell at shows, online, and take on the small trickle of casework projects. It's a tough business right now, but I'm too stubborn to quit.


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## Huckleberry (Nov 7, 2007)

Nice topic there Jim. I like to keep my pricing simple so I figure materials and that is really just the wood of the project. I then multiply that cost by 3. 1/3 for materials, 1/3 for building, 1/3 for finishing and installation. This is for any project not finished with automotive finish. Those that are finished with automotive I multiply it by 5 for the added finishing costs. I then track the hours of the build and divide it into my estimate and as long as I stay above my shop rate of 40$ per hour then I am in good shape, if not then I am on the cusp of losing money once I get to about $25 per hour. Hope that helps a little


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## TheWoodsman (Jun 21, 2010)

I started in 04 charging about $40/hour but gradually found that I was underpricing my work because, frankly, I am faster than most and have less labor hours in a project. My rate has increased to $60/hour plus 30% material markup. If I get stuck with a piddly "goodwill" job (usually residential stuff) I might relax the hourly rate. Also, if work is slow and I need to "get something in the door", I will relax the rate. On the other hand, if work is rolling in and it is plentiful, I may add a "profit multiplier" to my final pricing(for example: total price times 1.1).

Also, if it's high-end real-wood and veneers work I can charge a higher hourly rate than I can for a melamine and/or laminate job.


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## woodspark (May 8, 2010)

Such good responses and so much to learn from everyone! Thanks from my side for sharing your knowledge.

One important thing that stands out from so many responses is that the worth of one's woodworking is not determined by woodworking skills but by MARKETING skills. Hmmm…...


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## 76winger (Nov 12, 2009)

Lots of good responses in here, especially for someone like me who makes his living in a non-related carrier (I work in a corporate IT department), however am interested in how others make money selling what they make and have woodworking for their livelihood.

I always anticipated getting into woodworking as a retirement activity, and have been collecting my tools for such over the past couple of decades as I perform DIY work around the house. About two years ago I thought I'd try to supplement my income by ramping up the working and trying to turn it into a 2nd stream of income, which so far hasn't materialized very well. I HAVE gotten more proficient at what I'm doing, which is mostly pen making and bowl turning thus far, and have shaved the creation times down somewhat, but still not enough to where I feel it's profitable.

I've learned a lot about networking and marketing through books such as Guerrilla Marketing by Jay Levinson, Tribes, by Seth Godin, 48 Days to the Work You Love and No More Monday by Dan Miller. Those have helped me think a little more like a marketing person (and understand those in the sales and marketing dept. at work) and figure out that this is something I love doing and wish to expand upon and continually try to monetize even more, and as mentioned above, I believe finding the right market for what I make is part of the solution but also only the first step. The next step is determining what those I've connected with want, and figuring out how I can serve them and create what they want at a price that's affordable for them and still makes me some amount of an income off the transaction.

It's valuable to me to read this discussion and learn from those of you already in the business and what your experiences have been. The small projects that I do certainly don't appear to be something one could make a living solely off of, but it's netted me enough from selling them online to at least break even and add a tool here and there. I like to think those results will lead me to even better results as I learn more and get a better grasp on how I make things, what I make and what audience I should be marketing to.

Good topic for newbies like me to learn from. Thanks to everyone who's participated in the thread and Jim for getting it started!


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Dave

Wow WOW WOW Some of you words hit me right over the head*" but it's netted me enough from selling them online to at least break even*" This is not directed at you Dave, but that's why it's hard to make a living in woodworking because so many folks want to do woodworking so bad breaking even is acceptable. Which of course in real business is not really even breaking even once you take into account many have already stated , like equipment. power, material. and a myriad of other things. so unless you have a product that is so unique and so well set up through jigs etc your competing with people willing to work for nothing. That's less than third world laborers get,at least they get there $ 1.00 a day . I know lit sounds like I'm clobbering you Dave please forgive my rant, but with hundreds of post about folks wanting to go into the woodworking business this just really turned on a light after all these years and many lost jobs because the neighbor came over and did it for a lunch and a six pack built the


> ?


 even if the neighbors work is far inferior who could blame a perspective customer with my cost $3800 for build in cabinets or $400 in material plus lunch and beer?


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## TheWoodsman (Jun 21, 2010)

I think the most important thing that quality-minded custom woodworkers can do is try to educate the customer. Most residential customers just don't know anything about our trade and what the difference is between junk and heirloom quality. This is the main reason I prefer doing commercial work. Designers, architects and contractors generally have a better idea what they want and at what level it needs to be built . . . and I haven't had a tough time educating them on what adds $ and what saves $.

There are far too many people undervaluing their work and that hurts everyone in the long run. As a skilled woodworker with many years experience and probably close to $200K in machinery and buildings, I really think I should be able to scratch a living out of it.


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## closetguy (Sep 29, 2007)

Sorry Dave, but you just became the poster boy example. Jim is right. Your actions devalues others work by selling stuff online just to break even. You may have learned a lot about marketing, but nothing about business. It doesn't matter what audience you are marketing to. If you are satisfied with breaking even, then you will never make money in this business. The real question is "are you sure you are actually breaking even?" Many don't take into consideration the "true" costs. It's easy to have no clue to the actual costs when buy your materials with disposable income from a 9 to 5 job.

I am not intentionally slapping at you, but using you as an example. I see woodworkers selling widgets similar to mine on Etsy or Ebay for my cost to make the same item. There are many out there who are satisfied making $1 an hour, but the rest of us can't do that. It's difficult and disappointing to compete against American woodworkers using the Chinese pricing model.


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## littlecope (Oct 23, 2008)

Great Question, Jim! And this has been a very interesting read…
For myself, I couldn't possibly make a living with small projects, the numbers just don't add up… I have had a few people ask me, "Hey, how much do you think it would cost to make a box for…". When I tell them, at first they think I'm kidding, then they act like I've done something rotten… Friends don't treat friends that way, or something…
An old friend of mine saw the first Rosewood box that I made, and she was impressed… She liked it… Then she asked, somewhat hesitantly, if I had ever considered making Funeral urns, said that her and her husband would be needing them, someday… I told her that I had considered urns and it would be an honor for me…
But, then she said she had been looking around on-line and pricing them, and that they were expensive!! She just "knew" that I could make them cheaper than that… Huh?! What?! So my work is okay to spend eternity in, but not good enough to spend any money on!! LOL 
I think I'll stick with working just for fun…


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Mike, Never ever do business with friends or family!! If you give it to them at cost, they are still PO and don't want to pay. May as well have them PO because you didn't do it. 

I have asked a few if they would pay me a little extra since we are such good buddies ) Why not? Same thing in reverse.


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## 76winger (Nov 12, 2009)

Before I read the rest of the latest posts - Jim I take no direction at me whatsoever.

I'm happy to see a topic like this that I can learn from. I don't know any professional woodworkers locally even though I know they're around so I learn a lot when I see you guys speak up and share your experiences.

I'm relatively new to woodworking, although have had a latent interest for decades. And I've never been in business for myself so I have a lot to learn. And I'm ecstatic because this is the first hobby (thanks to pre-purchasing most of my tools) that has actually returned enough to allow me to purchase replacement supplies about 1.5-2x what I've sold, so I'm building an inventory of completed projects that are paid for. I'm happy and excited about this because every other hobby has been only a money grabber and not a money maker.

I have hope, that if I learn from those of you who've been in the business many years, and learn how to network and market, that I might have finally found something that can sustain itself, but once over that excitement move forward and grow it into a full fledged business one day.

So I'm happy, no offense taken, and if I sounded like I was, then I apologize for the confusion. We learn from those who've traveled the road ahead of us. I'm learning from everyone's experiences and can't ask for more.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Jim, We have the same thing in electrical. Contracors or side jobbers without any license or bond, not gettiing a permit, cutting corners and not following code doing dangerous work. That is why I stay away from residential work. I feel bad about homeowners who call out some guy who charges them 5 hours labor and they still have a problem I find and fix in 1/2 hour, just the way it is.


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## 76winger (Nov 12, 2009)

Closetguy,

Feel free to use me and other online sellers as an example. I'm actually pricing my items similar to What Huckleberry mentioned above: about 3x cost. Without as much analysis since I'm still learning, I just figured that as a good place to start to cover my materials costs, listing fees, sale fees, paypal fees, and still have a enough left over to buy more than I sold so I can grow my woodworking, hopefully into a business some day.

And like you, I see a competitor on etsy or ebay, selling the same style pen I sell for 1/2 what I've got it priced at, and I know he/she can't be making anything at it. My goal is to make money from this activity and If I find my niche and grow it enough I can then say goodbye to the corporate life someday. I'm proud of my work, but know that as a beginner with no name recognition, I have to be careful not to out-price myself and stall out before I get off the ground. Grow it slow and steady as I hear Dave Ramsey preach regularly! 

I hope that clarifies my own position a bit.


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## SteveMI (May 19, 2009)

Closetguy - You made three great points that are missed too often by people I see trying to work the weekend show tour.

First, many have a good product (maybe great) and priced well, but are at a show or market that won't separate that kind of money from the buyers pocket. Quite honestly, I would not buy a $300+ product from someone that I wasn't really confident at being able to contact later if there was a problem.

Second, it could seem related, but isn't. "The price is the price." I spent a prior life in reviewing quotes which has helped me in fully understanding what I can afford to make or not. It amazes me when I talk with a seller at a show and explain how they can reduce their material costs. Incredible how many of them buy raw materials at BORG or local hardware stores. Many times the reduced cost raw material are local to them. Profit isn't an accident, you itemize every element of your product and study how to get the best price for each element.

Third, if you want to compete at the lower dollar end of the market, under $100 per unit, you need to build in volume. Most items that I make are in quantities of 12 or more. Setting up the table saw, planer, jointer, or any tool to produce a single final unit is expensive. Setting them up once to make the parts for a dozen really reduces the labor time per unit. Then as you pointed out, with any quantity you can then use jigs or story sticks that greatly reduce your time again.

Point I'd like to add is that you need to realize what your market is and what they really want. I made tables with hardwoods, M&T joints of aprons to legs, dovetails on the drawers, small amount of inlay and spent time on the finish. After a period of meager sales and the third or tenth person asked if I could paint them black, it dawned on me. The market I was in didn't care about what I though was a good table, but wanted a "style" of table. So, now they are poplar/ash since they are being painted anyway, glue joint drawers, pocket screw apron to legs, pine glueup tops and painted in black milk paint with final of polyurethane. Don't forget they wanted distressed edges that show raw wood or another color paint in those areas. Price point is 75% of the "good" tables, but labor and material are 35% of the "good" tables. Board foot cost of wood went from $6+ to $2. Finishing time went from multiple hours to 30 minutes. Labor hours went drastically down. Tables are not inferior, just for a different market. People weren't necessarily cheap, just wanted something different than what I wanted to make originally. And my market area has an IKEA, multiple Walmarts and other off price stores in close proximity. Point is to listen and make a product the market wants right now.

Steve.


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## closetguy (Sep 29, 2007)

Good points Steve. Understanding the market is paramount to success. When I first started selling "widgets" at shows three years ago, I only sold end grain cutting boards period. I had all sizes, colors and designs, but sales were slow. The price range was $35 to $125. I did some soul searching about halfway through the second year and decided to expand the product mix by adding lower cost face grain boards, the dipping boards, and bookmarks.

This gave me a new price range of $5 to $100 providing my customers with a wider choice and price points. Sales tripled almost overnight. This year I added the lazy susans which have sold better than I expected. It's been an interesting exercise as I tweak my products and see the sales results. Selling at shows also gives me the opportunity to hear customer comments. The most common comment is "do you have this widget in that color of wood?" I write all this down. This is important feedback that you lose selling online. However, sometimes you just get lucky.

Last year my dipping board sales were less than stellar. At most, I would sell one per show and many shows I had no sales. Fortunately, I sold most of my remaining dipping board inventory on Etsy around Christmas. This year I kept the same design, but changed the wood combination and instead of 5 or 6 different styles, I settled on three styles and dumped the ash accents for tiger stripe maple. I got a hold of a bunch of figured maple for the price of ash and started cranking them out. I have sold out of these trays at every show except for one this year. So, making a simple, minor change to an existing product made a significant increase in sales. Actually, it was pure dumb luck, but the results got my attention. You have to be constantly changing, experimenting, and adding or deleting products. If you do the same shows year after year, the same product line will eventually get stale.

The biggest problem right now is we are still in a recession. People are starting to spend money again because my sales have increased significantly this year over 2009. However, it's still nowhere near where it should be. I've done expensive shows, cheap shows, and ones in between this year and I quit going to them with any expectations. I may do $400 and I may do $3000. It's just one big pot shot right now and most everyone is experiencing the same thing. Customer attendance has been way down, but purchases of my higher dollar items are up. We just need more customers.


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## miles125 (Jun 8, 2007)

When the housing market collapsed, everything that a house is composed of collapsed too. Now is the time to oil the machinery up and deliver pizzas or something.


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## BertFlores58 (May 26, 2010)

Bottom line, I am confused because of so many views. A good way to learn the issues like … marketing, hobby, giftgiving, profit, break even, earning a living. ..... etc. I can only say:

1. WOODWORKING makes me happy because of challenges in making something (if someone interested to buy-okay but not for a living) without thinking of the how MUCH IT WILL BE. 
2. A JEWELRY BOX by someone who has a name in the field of craftsmanship and design (like Andy, or Benjie Reyes and many others) can price them into a higher rate…. up to $1000 or above but you need to look for the clients who really can afford… TARGET MARKETING strategy. ON the opposite selling below $300… VENTURE on BLANKET MARKETING where you need to post your project at COMPETITIVE PRICE by applying BENCH MARKING meaning you need to know what exactly AFFORDABLE, COST VALUE EFFECT, NEED, FUNCTIONALITIES.
3. ADVERTISE ON YOUR OWN PRODUCTS-Let other people know …. SPREAD THE NEWS … The good quality of work, excellent design, CLIENT SATISFACTIONS, FEEDBACKS are the most important advertisements you can have. Give them the addresses and contact right in the product. THOSE PEOPLE talking about the MAKER will spread. I had rejected offers from people who had seen my boxes, my works who wants to buy just because I have no time to do it, and its only my hobby. 
4. TIME … The most important approach as a whole … WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO SELL. Mentioned above global crises.. inflation… deflation, etc. Sell those boxes in the right time….

BUT GENERALLY SPEAKING .. Evaluate the woodworking we have … Do we do it for SERVICE or PRODUCT?
Service - customer pay on how you do it. 
Product - customer pay the way your work appears.

Thanks for all of the different opinions on this question. Jim, we owe you about this question? How much? LOL.


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## tyskkvinna (Mar 23, 2010)

Steve really hit on what makes it possible for me to earn a living off of my woodworking: production efficiency. Just this evening I spent an hour painting pieces - did 12 in a row. And then sanded them all. One step for each, but all of them at once. It would take far too much time if I tried to completely make one piece at a time. If it was even a possibility.


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## korys (Jun 21, 2010)

Thanks for all the imput, it is very hard to know what to charge people when they ask when your just doing it for your own enjoyment. I would do it if I just piled them up in the storage, but it is nice to know I can make a little back, only if it is just to buy more supplies.


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## griph0n (Mar 31, 2009)

There's a nice set of tv shows on BBC called "Mastercrafts" http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00qvrcj

Stone Mason , Blacksmith , Bodgers (Greenwood Chairmakers), Stained Glass Restorer & Artist , Weaver & Woven Textile Designer and Thatchers, all traditional craftsmen making a contemporary living. It's sort of a reality show with 3 contestants training for and vyeing for a job.

The relevant idea I took from it is that being a proffesional means not just being skilled, but being fast. Time is money and a customer will pay for and enjoy quality, but they are not really paying for my enjoyment. Fair enough.

When I was younger I framed houses in Whistler to pay for skiing. You were fast and good or you didn't work. There's alot of pride in working fast and good.

Making furniture is different. My friends come and visit while I work, help out, and get told how and why I'm doing what I'm doing. Then they pay what the piece is worth, some agreed on "market value" and I never keep track of time.

I'm an amateur, no marketing, no timecard, no demands, no problems.
Speed is a skill I practice for as an end in itself, I'll never be as fast with a chisel as I am with a mortiser. I'll never cut as straight as a sliding tablesaw. I'dnever make as much money as a cabinetmaker as I do as a teacher (here in Canada). Let lone get a pension.

But somehow I feel alot more pride looking at my work than I did looking at my money (especially as it passed over the bartop)


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## stratiA (Feb 26, 2009)

I have been following this forum for a while now. I want to thank all who posted suggestions. My wife thinks I may have some talent with woodworking (god bless her) and thinks other people may be interested in what I may be able to make them. Most of it consists of kids stuff. She went so far as to investigate what operating and maintaining a website costs. She was going to present it as a Christmas present. We were hoping to make a few bucks and justify all the time I spend in the basement. I have no illusions of becoming rich. I am fully aware of what this economy has done to all our disposable income. So while I have plans of making clocks, small pieces of furniture and artsy stuff to sell. I will continue to concentrate on making kids stuff. As a financially challenged family we seem to have one area in which we do not cut back on and that is my young daughter. We seem to continue to buy/make things for her that may make her life, educating, etc better. I seem to have noticed other families who make the same decisions. Last fall while attending a craft show, I looked at wood crafts. Meanwhile the only thing we bought were cute knit hats and kids xmas presents. I took notice. If I can appeal to women, I can sell it to them. We have made a family commit to participate in a few smaller craft shows. If anything it will be fun. In fact we just completed or first. It was a great experience. Our goal was to sell 1 thing to a total stranger. I actually made money. We have just booked our second show. If I make at least a little cash we may continue. As for how I priced my work and my rates for work? well it is for just a few bucks. Now that I may have figured out the marketing, Its time to reduce business related costs. With a plan and budget I can produce in batches for much cheaper thus increasing my profits.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

griph0n, BBC shows are rights restricted. Can't watch themn.


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## woodspark (May 8, 2010)

Ever since this topic started, I wanted to mention an issue that has concerned me but for fear of stepping on some toes, decided to keep quiet. I'm still relatively new to LJ's but am learning that the truth prevails here and that opinions are accepted and considered by all. Fantastic! 
Both Jim and Closetguy have since brought up my concern; the hobbyist is slowly squeezing the life out of the guy doing it for a living by not charging realistic prices. I am not suggesting he is doing this on purpose, just stating an unfortunate fact. Here in my area, I have stopped doing local weekend shows. I can't compete. We have a large percentage of retired affluent woodworking hobbyists here. These guys do the shows for fun and to keep them busy. They charge prices that are far below realistic. It might contribute to buying more material but overhead and labor is sponsored by disposable income from another source. Just today I had one of them in my shop, proudly telling me how much he fetches for his pepper grinders. I walked him through the cost of the mechanism, the material etc, and then asked how long it took him to make one. When I calculated his hourly labor rate, his eyes went wide. Especially when I asked if he was willing to make a living on that income, feed his family etc. 
Closetguy says it is difficult and disappointing to compete against American woodworkers following a Chinese pricing model. Well, not only American woodworkers my friend, also down here in South Africa. Worst of all, many of them do not even know that they are following that Chinese model.

Someone said we need to educate. True, but we need to educate the buyer AND the seller.

I am not slamming the hobbyist's capability. Some of them do exquisite work, better than I can afford to do. Time is my enemy. Many times, I wish I also just had woodworking as a hobby. Time is not an issue then.


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## degoose (Mar 20, 2009)

Same problem here in Australia.. I have a friend who will not put his prices up as his pension might be affected.. even though he does exquisite work… Another friend can not compete at the same market with the first.. and he is trying to make a living from it…
The first does make money but it is more for something to do…he makes a few dollars an hour..
I am just glad that I am not competing for sales with him… my work commands better prices..and I get them..


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## reggiek (Jun 12, 2009)

Div, I hear what you are saying about the hobbiest. There were times, way back when, when I was starting out doing general contracting, that someone would get a remodel job I had bid for that wasn't licensed and/or was doing it as a "favor" since he/she was retired or a weekender doing some work for a few bucks. But once I was able to bid and do large professional jobs this did not happen. Pretty much most hobbiest are not even on the radar as far as the types of work they could co-opt from a bigger pro. In the custom furniture and crafts market this is may not always be the case. The hobbiest can exert some downward pressure on pricing for the smaller to medium pros (at art shows and craft fairs) but I believe as with all markets these days, more of the real pricing pressure comes from the cheap junk that is mass produced and sold at rock bottom pricing by the big conglomerates. I hear folks all the time saying to me that they wouldn't pay this or that price for a solid hand made item…when they could get something "similar" at Wally World for waaaaay cheaper.

I've sold some of the items that I have made…but the folks that buy them know that I am not a pro - doing this for a living - and they know that my pricing reflects that. But, after being on both sides of the fence, I understand the frustration that a business feels when the pricing model does not support the cost - look at farming….It is either the huge conglomerate that can exist in a market whose pricing does not reflect the actual costs….or it is the little organic ma and pa (hobbiest) that sell a few specialty vegatables just to pay for their hobby. The mid level producer is squeezed on both sides…and that is the way of wood working too. Surviving in a market such as this requires tremendous innovation, rapid changes in marketing strategies, and a whole lot of number crunching. It can be done…but it is not easy…the ratio of failed businesses can attest to that.


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## closetguy (Sep 29, 2007)

Don't let this thread digress into a slapping match against weekend warriors. There are part time woodworkers that run circles around some of us "professionals". The original question was "Do we make money on the little stuff?" The answer is yes, but but not a living. The problem is compounded by those who are making $1 an hour and don't realize it, or don't care because they have another source of income. It is what it is.


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## SNSpencer (Nov 16, 2009)

Make a living, no. But the items that I do sell have made this a self supporting hobby. My rule of thumb is take the raw materials and multiply by three. Example: Componets for a pen, hardware, blank and finish runs roughly $22 (including shipping from a vendor). I sell it for $66. I really don't count my time as being in the shop is what makes me happy. When all is said and done, if I only sell 1 of 3 pens I break even and have two left over for the occasional oops or better yet, a gift for someone.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Closetguy The orgianal post asked how much people sold their pens.boxes and boards for?


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## closetguy (Sep 29, 2007)

"It just seems so time consuming to make many these projects *how can one make a living* building these wonderful works of art."

It's all about interpretation of the question(s). Still, a healthy discussion.


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## poppatom (May 21, 2010)

Keeping up with this thread many have asked how to make a living doing what they love as do I. I have found that most people (customers) know nothing about wood and what a certain species offers in longevity of the piece their buying. On my LJ site I built some kids activity desks, some from ash with painted accents those I ultimately gave to my grandkids but the others that were all painted and made from pine seemed to sell more frequently and for the same price…go figure? All in all though there was still no making a living at it.


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## Timbo (Aug 21, 2008)

*Jim* Interesting topic, I put in my favorites to refer back to. Thanks to all for the comments, another reason why LJ's is such a great place!

I have my boards priced at:
End grain 12×12x1 3/8 - $125
Face grain 12×16x7/8 - $80


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## woody57 (Jan 6, 2009)

Lee
I love your response.
This has happened to me many times.


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## spclPatrolGroup (Jun 23, 2010)

This may not help, but right now woodworking is my hobby, i never want to charge for it because then it will become a job, and I dont need another job, I need something to take my mind off my job  I would build somehting for friends and family if they agree to pay for materials, that just makes my hobby cheaper!


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## zwwizard (Mar 30, 2008)

In between the time of repairing antiques I make boxes, pens and knives. For the boxes, I make around a 100 a year in the $5.00 to $25.00 range. About 20 in the $35.00 to $50.00 range, maybe one or two at $100.00 or more. Mostly on order. The Pens I do for $15.00. The knives I make are wood carving knives which I sell for $10.00 to $35.00.
In this area I wouldn't sell any for any thing higher. I do 2 or 3 shows a year. One is a knife show and the others are wood carving shows.


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## woodspark (May 8, 2010)

reggiek, excellent response!!


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## Puzzleman (May 4, 2010)

This has become a very interesting thread. I notice that the majority of people responding do not work at woodworking full time.

As to the original question of how much to charge for pens and boxes. My answer is to charge what you feel is a fair price where you make money. If the people that you are trying to sell to are not interested in buying, it is not because you need to lower your prices. You need to raise your level of customer.

I do wood working full time. I make personalized wooden puzzles, puzzle step stool and many other personalized items. I charge a premium price compared to my competitors for my products. In fact, the stores, catalogs and websites that I wholesale to, charge more that I do on my retail website. My products are worth it and I tell my customers that if you want it cheap, I will give the name and website where to get it cheaper and I do. If you want the best product with the best customer service and guarantee, buy from me.

As was mentioned above, it's not the woodworking that sells. It's the marketing. I sell directly to customers through art and craft shows thru out the midwest. There are a lot of shows I do not do as the customers that I am looking for are not there. In fact, I do not do any shows near where I live as my area is not the right kind of customer. When I do a show that is new to me, I check demographics for income levels and housing prices to determine if the right customer is there. I also check to see how many premium new car dealers are within 5 - 10 miles of where the show is. I know that my customer usually makes over a certain income level and I am looking for areas that qualify.

You can see my products and my show schedule at Hollow Woodworks

Jim


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## AuroraWoodworks (Nov 6, 2009)

I like the Lexus dealer strategy to finding your market.


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## woodsmith1 (Apr 23, 2010)

threre is a good book out there called "How to Price Your Woodworking 2nd addition" It covers EVERYTHING and I found it very helpful. I got mine on Amozon.


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## woodsmith1 (Apr 23, 2010)

Not plugging Amozon. You could get at a local book store. Sorry


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## huff (May 28, 2009)

Wow Jim, You really hit on a hot subject!. Over 1600 views and 84 replies and still going. It has really given me a chance to see the wide range of pricing from the hobbiest, to the part time woodworker, and to the full time woodworker…....and it looks like we are all learning from each other. It's given me an idea and will start it here, but will do a seperate forum to see what everyone things of the idea. 
I would like to do a pricing survey on a few designated items. It would give everyone on LJ's (that would like to participate), to be able to sumit a bid on a project and we would be able to see how a similar item would be priced by everyone, whether you are a hobbiest, or doing it as a supplimental income or doing it full time. I think it could be a lot of fun and would help us all. I'll do a seperate forum to give the details if anyone is interested.


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## grizzman (May 10, 2009)

im not speaking for mark decou…but he mentioned in his post the other day that he is making things that support the hat making business…and the restoration of older hat making equipment…his point was that he is probably still afloat because of his diversity …, he said that when the market crashed on the housing industry…so did the orders for custom furniture…from what Ive seen …in the wood working business…you need to be ready to go in some different directions with your wood work to make a living at it…i don't know what the other professionals here on lumberjocks are doing in this economy..it would be interesting to hear from some of them..i would hope they are making it…i hate to see that kind of business go down the tubes…custom wood work is very important i think…the people of this country are just trying to survive …but i hope there are still enough out there who know the quality of custom, and our woodworkers are staying afloat


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## _Steve (Feb 11, 2010)

Hey Huff, I've thought about doing the same thing on an item, post with pictures and have everyone bid on it in a mock "what you think its worth" value. Might be fun!


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## buffalo689 (Mar 2, 2010)

I can't answer that jim as I don't make pens.boxes and boards..I do make a living in my shop though , It's not a hobby, and retirement ..well..that's a laugh. I charge as much as "I " can afford to work for…_""thank god the wife has a successful bussiness also"" !!! Times are tough, teamwork pays our bills..


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## 76winger (Nov 12, 2009)

Looks like there's been a wide range of responses from a wide range of woodworkers from hobbyists to professionals doing it for a living. And also a wide range of products made by different people. As I mentioned earlier in the discussion, I'm doing it not as a profession, but I am happy to be breaking even and hope to turn my woodworking to profitability real soon, thus creating a 2nd stream of income.

To those who say they enjoy it but wouldn't want to do it for a living for fear of it turning into a job, I've seen this phrase from more than one source over the years and fully believe it: "If you do something you really enjoy in life, something that God put you on this planet to do, you'll never work a day in your life". And another continuance of that phrase is that every day will be a vacation. I felt this way during the 14 years I spent as an auto mechanic, I've felt that way the past 23 years working in various areas of computer support, and I'm looking forward to feeling that way with woodworking, which is something I've always wanted to dive into and finally am able to start diving into more seriously. I do belive that good marketing and always innovating are going to be keys to success. I'm still learning on those fronts.

That said, I just want to go back and Answer Jim's question based on the things I've made (prices in USD):
Bluebird Nestboxes/Birdhouses - $25-30 
Desktop display stands and pen holders - $40
Pens run the gamut:
Slimline pens - $15-20
Med sized pens - $25-75 depending on costs of the model and wood.
Larger deluxe pens - $90-180 depending on costs of the model and wood, rollerball or fountain, plating etc. 
And I've just started into bowls - $45-50 for some 8in dia by 2in high size range in Maple. We'll see how it goes. 
Most of my stuff has been fairly simple & straightforward designs so far, and I certainly couldn't make a living off of what I've done so far. I probably need to work on my marketing first, and then start innovating coming up with some new stuff of my own design over time. And I do have some repeat customers that seem really happy with my work, so I hope that becomes good word-of-mouth publicity as time goes on and get it all figured out.

In the end it comes back to my own phrase I started using about 10 years ago:
"Enjoy what you do, or do something else!"


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

I have done a number of commision pieces, but not commanding 'artist prices'.
The dining table I made I sold for 2500.00.

It was larger than the "model" from Eddie Baur at 1999, but they wanted the table 9 feet extending to 12, not 6 extending to 8, but also the customer wanted to NOT have the seam for leaves in the middle. So as an amateur I sold for 500 above the commercial cost, which includes 0 chairs. Please look at this and tell me what I should have charged?
http://lumberjocks.com/projects/11728

From a materials perspective, there was ~650 in material so the final price was around 4 times the material cost.
However because it is not my primary job, the number of hours in it were high. Much of that is from stopping and starting, remembering exactly which piece I left off with the night before etc.
In the end it probably was a 2-3 dollar an hour excercise, however working full time in a larger pro shop instead of moving machines around on mobile bases to do different tasks, the hours a pro would have done in would be far less.
I look for prices at the Ethan Allens, Eddie Bauer Home Store (gone now) and Jilka furnishing, not Ikea or Ashley furniture mart for comparisons.

WHY DO I MENTION This???>
Even at my prices, I face the comparisons to the crap china furniture that "they could have delivered by this weekend." 
Question is since I had to convince them that My price was fair….did I really "TAKE AWAY anything from the shop that would have charged 2-5times my price? If they were choking at $2500 were they going to have this made by thefull time pro for 8000.00? I expect they would go to Ashley or Nebraska Furniture Mart and buy some imported Crap.

The imports are the enemy, as is the desire to "makeover the house" every two or three years, means that selling the longevity and quality of your piece falls on deaf ears. They want something that looks good for 2-3 years, gets eaten on for Thanksgiving and Christmas and then goes to good will for a tax write-off.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Cheap import crap is the enemy of all middle class people, at least those who were middle class. It is nothing but a race to the bottom. Domestic competition is what built the economy we all grew up in.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Very true Topamax - - My point in a nutshell is that the hobbiest is doing more 'pulling up from the bottom', getting folks of limited means to consider a better built product, than they 'take off the top'. Someone looking to have a custom Louis XIV set made was never considering having 'Bob down the street' make it in their basement.


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## uffitze (Apr 23, 2010)

Personally, I think it is fine if a hobbiest can "pull up from the bottom" and make something for their friends and neighbors. It gives you a chance to preach the "buy local" message, and your friends and neighbors should be aware that they are getting a good deal. Like you said, most of these people would go to Ikea anyway. But, I also think that those same friends and neighbors should (and would) be ashamed when they learn what your hourly wage works out to be. They can play the "but you're not a pro" card if they like, but you can play the "it's custom work, and I'm obviously good at doing it" card.

On the other hand, it is frustrating to see a hobbiest charging cheap import prices at a craft fair or online and justifying it by saying that "I'm just a hobbiest, and I only want to cover the cost of materials and maybe buy some new equipment. The work is my real reward."


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## Puzzleman (May 4, 2010)

If the people that you are selling are only looking at price, should you be selling to them?

People who only buy based on price do not have any loyalty to your brand. (yes, you are your own brand.)
If they are willing to leave you in a heartbeat to go to a box store and get import product because it is cheaper,
what makes you think they would buy another item from you later if they can get it cheaper elsewhere?

to me, the whole point of making a sale and doing a quality job is to get a reference and more work later on. But if all they are looking at is price, then they will continue to look at price. Now if you can impress them with your work and teach them the real value of what you have done, maybe they can turn into a repeat customer.

Another point is that maybe you should look for a different customer. One that understands the time and skill that goes into what you do and is willing to pay that price. There alot of those people out there, you just have to seek them out.

Most of us are not salespeople but love working with wood. Unfortunately, we must also be salespeople to sell our products to the proper customer at a fair price.

Jim


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## 76winger (Nov 12, 2009)

There's a couple of ways to look at this as I see it (for someone wanting a quality piece anyway):

One way is, professional or Hobbyist, you're making the piece (whatever it is) to make money. In this scenario, the professional "should" be making a better product where fit and finish is concerned and thus be commanding a premium price for his/her expertise. A hobbyist making a similar item to make money, would be expected to be lower in price than the professional who does it day-in and day-out, as he's going to have less proficiency with the craft and most likely won't have as good of a final product as the professional or will have involved a lot more time getting the same level of fit & finish. This is just the cost of the "learning curve" and I would expect the hobbyist's prices to go up as they gain proficiency and speed to match the professional. In the end, the hobbyist becomes a professional as well.

The other way to look at this if the person is making a piece for a friend or neighbor and is simply cutting said friend or neighbor a good deal for services rendered. This to me, would be considered a gift of my time to my friend for my expertise in the craft the he/she might not have. It could be a hobbyist or profession in this role as well. Your not doing it simply to undercut the professional that's trying to make a living at it, your just offering up your service to your friend/neighbor as a gift and quite frequently this is in return for something they've done for you or something they may do in the future. In some ways it's a barter type of system but frequently it's just plain a gift and nothing else. People have been doing this kind of thing since the beginning of time, and will continue to do so. Not everyone is going to go to a professional and pay the professional's fees for a given piece of work.

Then there's the people who will settle for the foreign, cookie cutter made, low quality piece from the discount store - Well you didn't lose a customer from these folks, as they wouldn't have paid the big bucks for quality in the first place, either because the simply can't afford to, or because they've chosen not to.


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## closetguy (Sep 29, 2007)

I feel sorry for the weekend warriors who feel slighted, but I can't stop laughing. I can see it now in 76wingers world. Picture a "hobbyist" at an art and craft show with a big sign on top of his/her tent:

"I AM A HOBBYIST AND MY WORK SUCKS, BUT COME ON IN FOR A GREAT PRICE"

I think this will work….


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## 76winger (Nov 12, 2009)

I think Wal Mart should start that ad campain, although I doubt theirs is even made by people


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

One of the great things on this thread is that there are some postings on price…which was A1Jims original intent. I think the best that might come from it is to develop a more realistic pricing for some of the shows that educates some folks to not sell at or below costs with the Hobbiest excuse.
Perhaps that is just based on comparing prices to Etsy or other sites/artists/galleries, or for items to just realize that if your price isn't more than say 3X materials you are hurting the market.

I would take for example the Maloof Chairs out there that many sell for 4-5000 US for the pros.
The hobbiest (assuming not a complete noob) can make a chair of equal quality…but it would probably take them 3 times as long, and they spent time on the jigs and fixtures etc.
Obviously they cannot just assume the same 40/hour as the pro and charge 15K for their chair. But they shouldn't go to a show and sell it for 999.99 fully recognizing they have 800 worth of curly walnut in it.

The discussion should focus more on pricing/value than hourly rates. I think this is an area that guilds can help with a lot, because they are the pros in that particular Zip code, perhaps with No Lexus dealerships.


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## Ken90712 (Sep 2, 2009)

WOW, Interesting responses from some people on here that I have the utmost (spelling) respect for. I work full time for the airlines. So woodworking is a hobby, but I have been selling so much it has become more than a hobby. I have made roughly 38 cutting boards, I sell them for $150.00. I thought I had priced them too high for anyone to buy them but I was wrong. I live in Los Angeles which is one of the more expensive places in the country along with other cities of course. With that said people buy them faster than I can make them. I had a party for our backyard remodel few weeks back had 96 guests. I'm so tired of these board I raised the price to 200. Sold 6 of them and they all said your not charging enough. But to make a living at this I couldnt imagine that. I would be afraid it would really become work! At first I was almost embarrased to charge or tell people prices but as many of you have stated you need to charge what your worth. If it was easy anyone could do it!


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I met a retired fellow this last weekend who just charges for the lumber unless soomeone tries to take advantage of him. Hard to compete with that if you aren't retired or independently wealthy.


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## closetguy (Sep 29, 2007)

Yep, I've seen those guys, but they usually aren't around very long. Also, these types of guys won't do $200+ entry fee shows. So, if you do higher end shows, you won't see this problem.


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## Puzzleman (May 4, 2010)

Ken90712, You are what I am saying. Don't complain about people not buying or can't afford it, find the customers that can. I love that you figured out how to make more money with less work by raising the prices.
My opinion is to keep raising them until you get people passing because of price. Then lower it back down some to where they will buy.

Good Luck on your enterprise.

Jim


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## tworedballs (Jun 28, 2010)

Dont' take this the wrong way because I could be ill informed, but I watch A LOT of "How It's Made" on TLC and I would think the best way to get your costs down [read labor] would be to make more of your product at a time.

Take cutting boards, for example. They look awesome! Some of you guys are true artists when it comes to putting them together. But why not buy 3x the material, make a super long cutting board and cut into 3 or 4 pieces and finish the edges? I wouldn't imagine it would take much more time for the glue-up and the finishing could all be done at the same time. Now you have your constant: the material cost. Your time has now been cut in half or more and you can sell 2 times as many boards and make more profit per board.

My mom used to make soap as a hobby and sell it a a farmer's market with her neighbor. It took just as long to make 400 bars as it did to make 50 bars. So, if initial material cost was not a factor, why not make the 400 bars?


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## Sawmillnc (Jan 14, 2010)

Jim,

An excellent discussion. From my perspective there are two factors at play and that is the ROI and value of my time to other activities that I can make money. I sell lumber slabs and blocks, some furniture and have to factor in many variables into the process including equipment, taxes, inventory replacement, maintenance, my salary just to name a few. There are lots of sawyers that don't know how much they are getting in profit because they don't know how much their time and equipment are worth and undercut the market as a whole and are out of "business" in 2-3 years. I say "business" flippantly because they typically don't understand how to do business or make a profit.

1- Differentiate yourself by your skills and product.
2- Understand your bottom line.
3- Master your market and how to market your wares and skills.
4- Be flexible.

D.U.M.B.


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## learnin2do (Aug 5, 2010)

I took $200 for the second seesaw. 
When she asked how much i would charge for one, i lowballed it because i don't work in the summer. (newly sub-teacher w 3 kids-who would need care -i make about $20 a day if i work in a summer camp or day care and get a half-price discount for them) 
This summer my Dad paid me to make repairs and such to their house for sell-readying.
-so, i figured anything was better than nothing with time on my hands

-she gave me that shocked look jolsenoh mentioned.

-btw- a regular block style seesaw is $200 -that is where i got the price -some hardware kit is $69

- i made $6 an hr -the main framework is "reclaimed" -& yes, i did include prepping the old wood in my hours, but not collecting it (probably 10 min while my kids screamed… NO! -"c'mon mom!

-Soraya's chair went for 75 with a bench not yet made because i know she has very little…and all that y'all already mentioned

-I'd be happier charging $300 -that would still only fetch $11 n hr -if i have all the main materials found


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## terry603 (Jun 4, 2010)

a lot of you guys are cutting yourselves short on your talent.
a professional is a professional because he makes his living at it.
he does not have to be rated very good.
a real lot of the people here may be hobbiests,but,you are truly experts…to be an expect you need to be better than most.
i can only hope to improve myself,not expecting to reach skills i have seen here.

as far as pricing,sorry i'm not able to help your there.


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## TulsaWoodSmith (Mar 17, 2009)

I generally charge by the hour for most of my custom builds. If someone is a new client and feels more comfortable with a fixed price I can do that too.

Here is how I price a job. (generally)

*Fixed Price=* Cost of materials x 4. (+ 3% of material cost for misc supplies.)
*Hourly:* = materials at cost + $65 per hour for me and $30 per hour for my part-time assistant. (+ 3% of material cost for Misc supplies) I fix screw-ups at my expense. If I take time out to teach a particular skill to my assitant, we are both off the clock.

Either way we do the project, there is rarely more than 4% difference in the pricing.

Michael


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

ShopDogs, Do you have labor units you put on each operation to get the hours for the bid?


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## TulsaWoodSmith (Mar 17, 2009)

Topa, When I do a proposal for a project, I have a fairly good idea about what will be involved. Like everyone else, I break the job into the various components, make a list and assign time to each step. I know how long it takes to size the rough stock into square edged 3/4" boards. I know how long it takes to cut and assemble a raised panel, door and drawer. I have a pretty good idea how long it takes to design and make a face frame. Then sanding and finishing.

I just assign times to each task, add 20% for the things that ALWAYS come up, multiply by my hourly rate and the estimated cost of materials, and that is the estimated price. That price is only a figure so the client has a ballpark idea. It tells them that the job is not $500 and also not $1,500. My proposals, which require a 50% deposit upon acceptance of the project, has provisions for material actual costs, up or down.
Remember, My wife is an attorney. The ageement is fair to everyone. There is no confusion, and no "party of the first part" legalese. It lets everyone know what is expected-the builder, and the buyer

Michael


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## degoose (Mar 20, 2009)

Michael… that is soundest advice anyone can give… short, to the point and very relevant.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Sounds like it is about the same process as electrical estimating. We use labor units on all the materials and parts.


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## TulsaWoodSmith (Mar 17, 2009)

Sure, Topa. It is the same deal. When I am actually doing the build, "on the clock" I use the high-tech method of a time sheet and a clip board. I write down the hrs spent on which project, and use that to generate the actual invoice at the close of a job (short duration project) or as an interim invoice on a big project.


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## Bluepine38 (Dec 14, 2009)

To just make a living now you have to be in the $20.00 an hour range, if you add in the tools and materials
and make good quality projects, I can not see going for less than $25.00 and hour. I retired 2 years ago at
70 years old and set up my woodworkshop to keep myself out of trouble and off the streetcorners. I know
where the senior citizen center is, but only went there for an AARP driving class to make sure I would be a
decent driver. I made a meditation bench from 8/4 maple for my oldest son, if I charged him it would have 
been a $500 bench. I put a lot of TLC into it, and his thanks and statement "I did not know you could do
this kind of work." were more than payment enough. I have wedding gifts for family and grandkids that I
am slightly behind on, and might try to sell some items later when I catch up so I can build a better workshop.
If people do not want to pay a fair price, I will not be willing to sell. I am blessed in that I retired from a
company that sells tools and gave me a special lifetime employee discount. I have two hardwood stores and 
several custom sawmills in a 20 mile radius as well as a specialized privately owned woodworking store and a
son that manages a commercial machine shop supply store. I can buy what I need without a lot of trouble,
but know that custom cabinet shops are having more trouble lately with the recession. Not a lot of reason
to go commercial right now. Thanks for letting me spout off.


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## rance (Sep 30, 2009)

I agree with the idea previously stated that if folks are squawking about price, then they ain't your customer base, find someone else. I've believed for a long time that price can/should be used as a regulator for your backlog. If you are too busy, you need to charge more.

As for shows, I am only familiar with the 'cheap' ones. You need something unique in order to do well. But next week, you'll likely be duplicated by someone else. To help thwart this, you need to build something that others can't do easily or is not worth their time(due to what we used to call NRE-Non Reoccurring Engineering, or building jigs) or out of their price range or abilities. The price rule above still applies.

Slimline pens - $25 & up
Fat pens - $55 & up
Simple Boxes - $75 & up
Fancy Boxes - $200 & up

I'd rather give a piece away than reduce the price.


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## packrat (Apr 18, 2010)

Looks as if this posting has been up for some time, But I'm still going to put in my two cents and or opinion.
Benn doing this woodworking for some time now and I find that pricing is about the hardest thing about the business, If it's refinishing and repairing the job and you add up all the hours and it comes to a redicoulics amount to you , do you charge that to the customer. I try to keep my prices afordable and reasonable, If I take a loss, so be it, I would rather have a happy customer with the price reasonable, than have them NOT come back to have more work done . I have had customers say to my face that is the reason they have me do their work , is that it's reasonabley priced and that I do a good job,that was a customer from TEN years ago. Looks to me I need someone like tyskkvinna that made the comment of how much each hour and for what kind of job it is she charges, $100 an hour plus. That's a person that company's should have working for them Maybe I should hire her for the estaments I met a guy 20 years plus ago that priced himself out of business..

Building furniture to become heirlooms


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Hi Scott
Even if you get people to return because of your at a loss price ,your not gaining a customer they are gaining someone who works for nothing.


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## degoose (Mar 20, 2009)

How long do you work at a loss?


> That is like working for a boss and paying him for the privilege of you working for him…. now there is an idea… do you need a job


??... LMAO….


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## poppatom (May 21, 2010)

Been watching this conversation for sometime now trying get an idea myself on pricing my work. A co-worker was talking about a chess set he had collected some years back from Avon, I barely remembered the set myself. He stated that he had been looking for a chess board to go with it but to no avail, that's when a friend of mine told him that I built furniture off and on.
I guess the guy really wanted a game table and chairs so just off the top of my head I shot him a price of $800.00 for a game table and two chairs. I finished the table and posted it last week and am currently working on his chairs.
I figured it wood take around a 100 bf to build this project and I came out with about 10bf extra so I was close there. I work construction and this being the busiest time of the year for me I priced it high but he still wanted it anyway.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

Great post, Jim. I have read the first half of these replies and will come back and read the second half later. I appreciate your posting this question; this thread is very interesting.


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## closetguy (Sep 29, 2007)

You charge your customers so that you take a loss? That's a good business plan. How about sticking $100 under your door mat and I'll come by and pick it up later. This way you don't have to expend any energy bringing it to me.


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## Puzzleman (May 4, 2010)

If I understand correctly, I sell at a loss today to get another order in 10 years. My questions is what do I live on during the 10 years?

At no time should you sell for a loss to gain business. This is what many people on this forum complain about. Someone selling their product as a hobby (where you do it not for the money) instead of as a business (where you do it for profit). Too many people under value their worth because they have bought into the mantra that they will only buy if it is cheap in cost. Sometimes you need to fire the customer if they are not willing to pay for you to make a decent profit. If everyone in the world sold their product for less than cost, who would have anything to spend on other products. Even Wal Mart sells everything for a profit. They do not sell for under their costs.

I sell my products at Art & Craft shows. I do this full time and make my living from these shows and other avenues. I am not a retired person looking for extra money but rather paying bills for the family, house, shop, etc. I do have competitors at these shows that sell for less than what I sell my product for. When someone states that my prices are high, I reply that yes they are. AND here is why. I then proceed to tell them about the quality, wood and benefits of my products versus the cheaper ones. If they still are not sure because of the price, I direct them to my competitor. Yes, I tell them where to get a cheaper product. About half of the time, the customers will return because they realize that the extra cost is worth the quality that I deliver. 
As far as the other half, they were not going to buy from me anyways.

Do not settle for just getting the job. Settle for getting a paying job (if you are making this a job). If you are doing this as a hobby, congratulations!! I am glad that you were able to make enough money in your real job (where your company makes a profit on every sale) to support your hobby.


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## degoose (Mar 20, 2009)

@Puzzleman…. well said… I was going to make some pithy remark but thought better of it….I wish I has so much money I could just give all my work away for nothing…Or maybe pay some one to take it….


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## Beginningwoodworker (May 5, 2008)

Good topic, Jim I have only built stuff for my mom and sister. I hope to start building stuff for other people but I dont know if its worth my time and effort.


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## Claymation (Sep 9, 2010)

Well, I'm really late to this thread, but I have to say that I don't think you guys are charging enough! Unless I'm working for my immediate family I wouldn't turn the lights on in the shop for less than about $45/hr. If you're turning out a high quality, highly customized piece, even that's too low. Most of the cabinet shops around here charge about double that. As a comparison, I just had a company come out and replace a pump in my septic system. They charged me $180/hr for one plumber and a helper!! For labor only!! I called 3 different places and these guys were the least expensive. Now I know woodworking is a far cry from plumbing and screwing around with some guys septic system takes a "special" person, but it's still a trade and hourly rates for trade labor should be fairly similar.


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## mosaicwes (Sep 14, 2010)

When I was building cabinetry and custom furniture, I used a very simple rule of thumb.
The client's cost was 2/3 more than the cost of material.
If the job was especially complicated, I might round it upwards a bit or vice-versa. 
Most of the time I did alright with this simple system.
I never felt comfortable charging by the hour. 
Where do you start? With the hours you spend lying awake at night wrestling with the complexities and problems that you'll have to deal with? 
With the time you spend researching material costs? Picking up the materials? Can you add the time it takes to go and pick up your blades from the sharp shop? 
And…. I work hard and fast once I get into it. No standing around scratching my head or talking on the phone. Some people….. never do learn how to think ahead and work at a fast steady pace all day.
So I figure my hours are maybe worth a little more than some others might be.

I also sell the odd painting and young artists ask me how to price their work. This can certainly apply to starting or amateur woodworkers as well. The difference being that the woodworker must be much more conscientious about overhead such as power consumption of machines, machine maintenance etc.

Anyway, I ask them where they work and how much they make now and if they say, for example, a coffee shop, 10 bucks an hour, I ask, "and how much per hour would you need to make, for the time spent producing your paintings, to be happy?"

Now, I'm going to say something that most of you probably won't like.
A few years back the then wife wanted some closet/storage style cabinets built for the bedroom.
(Old house, no closet space to speak of.)
I did shop drawings, made cutting lists, priced all the material and came up with something like 
$1200 and 2 weeks work. 
A few days later, I found myself in Ikea. Beautifully finished birch veneered cabinets, exactly like she wanted, for less than my cost of the material. And I have a good pro supplier I've dealt for 20 years and get 15% off of an already low price on sheet stock and lumber.

Now, it's true that you have to be damn careful handling the components because they're particle board but as long as you don't break anything during assembly, once they're together, they look and function just fine. 
Anyway, I switched the cheap 110º hinges for Blum 170s and that was it. 
Dining set? Same story. Really nice beach chairs, table with an excellent extension system for about the cost of material and me…. with a professional cabinet makers shop right there on the yard.
I can't compete with that.

My clients at the time, people who had me build home offices or custom furniture,
were people who had way more money than me, wanted something specific and could afford to pay for it.


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## woody57 (Jan 6, 2009)

Wes

I'm glad you mentioned IKEA. I have heard some people brag about getting their furniture at IKEA. I think that is the price point and quality that most consumers are willing to accept. To make it in the custom woodworking business you have to find those people with money who desire nice things.


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## mosaicwes (Sep 14, 2010)

Trust me, that wasn't bragging. 
Just saying that I could buy the finished product from them cheaper than I could buy the raw materials.
As a woodworker trying to make a buck, that was dismaying.
Ikea and Asian imports etc. are why I moved away from trying to compete in making functional furniture items.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Wes Giesbrecht, You could very well be quite a bit more productive than some others who haven/t learned to work hard, steady and to think ahead. When I first started business, I tracked jobs and cost accounted them for 2 years. I had an electrician working for me that was as any I would ever hire. Over a 2 year period, I was consistently 33% more productive than he was, I never had a long term opportunity to do the same with an average guy, but I suspect the difference would be 50% or more in my specialized control wiring niche.


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## Claymation (Sep 9, 2010)

Wes, My rule of thumb has been that labor is somewhere between 2 to 3 times the material costs. I've crunched the numbers several times and it always seems to be roughly that. You'll never compete with Ikea. It's all mass produced particle board. You get 5 - 10 years out of it, MAX… usually less. Ikea even posts a materials list for each item (not sure why they do that!) Stick with those customers that want something specific.


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## closetguy (Sep 29, 2007)

Don't feel pregnant Wes. All my bedroom furniture is from Rooms To Go. It's well built and cost less than I could build it for. There's nothing wrong with being price conscious. This is the reason I don't build furniture and stick with casework. It's hard to find an "off the shelf" solution that fits a built-in application. Most people understand that built-in cabinets have to be custom built. There is also no price comparison than from other custom cabinet companies.


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## mosaicwes (Sep 14, 2010)

Thanks TS.
When I was teaching joinery a lot of the students were adults, retraining.
It amazed me at first, how few of them actually knew "how to work".
You expect it from the ones just out of high school but 
those who'd been out in the world for 20 years?

Master Kindler: Altho I always preferred to work with plywood, when I was building casework some customers wanted Cherry or Walnut and I often couldn't get sheet stock of those except as veneered MDF.
I built some nice cabinets 20 years ago that are still just fine. The nice part of those hardwood veneered MDF sheets is how incredibly flat, smooth and consistent they are. Makes it easy to do a really nice finish on them.
The stuff I bought for myself from Ikea has had no problems at all in almost 10 years now.
I don't imagine that the really low end melamine stuff would last long tho.


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## davidroberts (Nov 8, 2008)

I doubt 10% of the LJers make their living solely woodworking. And less than 1% making $100K or more net a year. Probably most in the $25 to $35K range. That's ok. Just think how many $200 boxes a year, knick knacks, bottle stoppers, pens, etc. you need to make AND SELL to make the equivalent of $20 an hour. And $20 an hour is a standard wage for a warehouse worker, or local delivery driver. Nothing wrong with that. Some are very satified by it.

Have you noticed most of the "famous" woodworkers today, the internet celebrities, don't really make a living woodworking, they make a living teaching woodoworking, showing up a trade shows, or selling mass produced stuff. They may get a commission every now or then, but woodworking now takes a back seat.

Remember when a "show" was somthing you saw on TV or at the movies.

I may sound jealous, but more like amused, maybe amazed. It's just a rant. But these internet wonders are on to something.

If you run a really successful woodworking business, you are probably to busy working 10+ hours a day then doing the books and marketing at home in the evening to spend a lot of time on this or any website.

So I'm going to tell you a SECRET you already know, but you may not want to admit to yourself. If you are going to succeed, you need to sell yourself as UNIQUE. You need to be something SPECIAL. You need to STAND OUT FROM THE CROWD. You need a HOOK.

You don't just sell a wood box, you sell a MASTERPIECE, a WORK OF ART.

You embrace GORILLA MARKETING.

You embrace the INTERNET.

You produce a CD and give it away.

You get your NAME on the local newscast,

You show up at charity events and volunteer.

You give your BUSINESS CARD TO ANYONE WHO CAN FOG A MIRROR.

Here's the OTHER SECRET.

SUCCESS IS SCARY.

Most people would rather just exist in the safety of mediocrity and bitch than really be a success.


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## 76winger (Nov 12, 2009)

David, you sound like a blend of Jay Levinson and Seth Godin…
I love it (not to mention believe it and understand it)!
Now I just need to find that unique niche product and aquire the guts to implement it…


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## Claymation (Sep 9, 2010)

Wes, you must not have a couple of "wrecking balls" (kids) living at home still! 
Have a good day!

David, loved the rant… funny, albeit (unfortunately) true. btw, I'm special, just ask my mom; and, I'm unique, just like everyone else.


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## Artigiano (May 27, 2010)

Hi Jim,
All good info and responses to your post so far. Since I would be considered in the bank of "Not full time, but still running a business" furniture maker, I have found a few key points that seem to work well. First, Location. It seems obvious, and it is- but what your area market is like, avg income, etc is HUGE. I live in San Diego, and can market to LA, where spending big money on hand crafted furniture is always in, and sometimes they do it just to brag. Second, it takes a little psychology. What is something worth? Answer: exactly what someone is willing to pay for it. No more, no less. So, I try to know as much about the prospective buyer as I can- job, social status, bought commissions in the past, has a lot of art work, where do they live, etc, etc. You always see the discussions here relate to the fact that budding pro's don't charge enough, etc. I feel that saying x/hr + materials is good for pieces that you market, are reproduced exactly, and are advertised as such. That's perfect. But for one-off pieces, you are robbing yourself of margin by using a static formula. One affluent person may feel that they SHOULD pay big dollars for a custom piece, and expect it to be a cheap slap together if it's not. The next may land in the middle because they are buying it as a gift or otherwise. 
My point, is that the price depends on the customer, complexity, and your minimums.

Thanks!
Rick


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## brentgolden44 (Dec 9, 2007)

I have a different way to sell my work. I do intarsia with exotic woods. I do only commission work as I don't think it wise to make 20 pieces of something, then just have it stting around because nobody likes it, or think it is priced too high. I charge $10.00 for every single piece of wood I need to make up a project. I just finished an eagle which was 100 pieces total, and sold it for $1000.00. Sometimes I have to add more if the wood is very costly. I see people at craft shows with intarsia selling extremely cheap. I do not know how their price can include materials and labor. Most of their products are pine and stained, tho. It must just be a hobby. Some people have called ridiculously high, some have called me other stuff.LOL oh well, as my Dad once told me "It's not what they call you that matters, it's what you answer to that counts."


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

Brent, that's a smart way to price it, I haven't thought of that before. It makes perfect sense for intarsia. You do some really nice work.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

It's been almost six months since I placed this post and I'm amazed folks are still interested, great post gang.
It's very interesting to see everyones take on this subject.


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## jmichaeldesign (Oct 12, 2010)

The cabinet/custom furniture shop I used to work in was a small shop with relatively low overhead. We charged 50 an hour for the most part. If anything we went a little lower sometimes. One of the main things I learned there was how to work efficiently. We always had to juggle more than one project at a time. If there was any downtime on one we had to jump to another right away. Once the material for a project was dimensioned we rarely turned the jointer/planer back on. We had to veer away from a lot of traditional techniques in favor of being able to get things done faster. For example using pocket screws to assemble face frames.

If anything I thought my boss should have charged more. There were many projects where he would only make marginally more than me and I was just working there part time through college.

I'm planning on working for myself sometime in the next 5-10 years, and while I'm hoping I spend most of that time in a woodshop, I know I may spend a fair amount of time installing hardwood floors, building decks, and just general handyman stuff. I'm currently thinking that I'll go ahead and become a licensed contractor so that I have to ability to take some small to medium construction jobs and be able to pull permits for remodeling.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*jmichaeldesign* Your old boss may have been in a very competitive market. Most electrical contractors make 3% or less on a job. One of the reasons I have always done small jobs by myself or with very few employees. Just wasn't worth the risk.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

BTW, One of the largest contracors in Seattle during the 90s boom got paid for 3 of their 10 best jobs of the year. The other seven were in some kind of litigation or collection. The best job turned less than 5% profit. Welcome to the real world.


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## jmichaeldesign (Oct 12, 2010)

I wouldn't say the market was competitive. We had a really small niche carved out. We only did cabinetry for historic reproductions. Our passion was furniture and sculpture, we made cabinets to pay the bills. He had set a limit of 4 kitchens a year, and we typically had a long waiting list, or just flat out turned customers away. We did operate with a pretty bare bones operation both shop/tool wise and employee wise.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Sounds sort of silly to work for practically nothing, but maybe that is why the waiting list ;-))


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## traupmann (Oct 8, 2010)

After reading most of this conversation, I am very happy I did NOT follow my love of wood to a profession. I've worked in hacking out aluminum into airplanes, and now can 'afford' to butcher some great looking hunks of wood.

I did see a couple of guys showing their woodwork at a fair this weekend. They were getting a lot of buzz, but I don't know how much business.

Maybe this is why advertising and sales people get so much money for peddling your stuff!


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Thanks for your comments Traupmann , sounds like your career is plenty interesting too.


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## mosaicwes (Sep 14, 2010)

I remember when I was doing my apprenticeship, I got to know people involved in all the building trades. 
I'd taken up joinery because that's what I wanted to do, but I was somewhat dismayed to learn that it was the lowest paid trade in the construction biz.
Not that it would have influenced my decision if I'd researched it before hand but it always felt kind of crummy knowing that I'd never earn as much (as an employee) as the plumbers and electricians did.
Oh well…
Joinery gave me the opportunity to create my own shop, work alone and in a creative way, which was what I really craved.
Out financial necessity I find myself going back to cabinetry and it happens that I'm starting a kitchen reno next week for some folks I built a bunch of furniture for, years ago. 
While I'm there, I plan to take photos of all the work I did for them in the past. I didn't have a digital camera back before I started doing the wall hangings.


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## mosaicwes (Sep 14, 2010)

Traupmann,

You definitely have to check out the work of Arnt Arntzen. 
He sells in some of the same venues that I do. 
I think he actually uses salvaged parts of airplanes in some of his furniture.


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## traupmann (Oct 8, 2010)

Wes: Wow, thanks for the info on Arnt. Love what I've quickly perused,

I love seeing what I can steal from great artists ;-)


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## markplusone (Apr 23, 2010)

Getting paid your your woodworking is so much more than just an hourly wage. Its a culmination of expertise, experience, taste, customer skills and an understanding of the complicated yet age old relationship of man and wood. I am 27 and what I know now (versus when I took my first class in woodshop in 9th grade) is that every piece I make for someone has much more of me in it than the last. As far as how much something is worth, do this. Take a walk down the furniture aisle at wal-mart. What you find is cheap but applicable desks, tv stands and chairs made almost exsclusively out of particle board. Any that actually are wood are cookie cutter renditions with poor finishes and unimaginative design. If you are in the business, you already know that these things, although inferior, are your competition. I have been blessed in that all my business has been all had by word of mouth. With this type of customer, you have already broken past the "why is it so much more expensive than at wal-mart" mind set. They know you go to wal-mart to get what works. You come to a craftsman, (thats us!) to get something that inspires and lasts. After talking with a customer and looking at where a particular piece goes and what they want out of it (and a little personality reading; alas another hobby!) I build the best surmision of what I beleive they want. Usually with very good result which brings on the next project. Now Im here at the top of the pocono mountains and I do have a very good income base around me thanks to all the traveling N.Y.C. workers so I dont have much if any down time. So as far as price is concerned, make sure if your not going exclusively through the net, you need to price resonable for you area. I dont sell on the net and probably wont. I like meeting my customers (like I said, personality reading). Makes the project more fun for me. But it is a tool that can help boost your bottom line. If you live and work in a depressed area, lower your physical buy prices(where people come into a shop or otherwise being drawn from the local area). Then open an online store under a different name and allow for better pricing based off of whatever model you choose. Looking for an hourly wage is hard to get and even harder to keep steady. Ever have a bad day in the shop? One thing I can say is that woodworking, being one of those blue collar jobs, will always have a place in the economy. Finding a niche or learning your particular market is paramount in your success.


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## traupmann (Oct 8, 2010)

markplusone: I feel your love of woodworking. I too have that love, I think I had wood shaving under my diapers. I have a saw cut on one finger from holding wood lath for my uncle when I was 4 years old. I have a hundred stitches on my right hand from a chop saw accident (table collapse) when I was in my 20s. But even in the 60s I realized that I could work wood as an avocation until I retire. I wanted to work where I could afford to buy all the tools, mags, books, etc. and then enjoy the last 30 years. 
I tried to convince my son, a mechanical engineer by degree, that he was wasting his time being an actor. After seven years of making poverty wages, he finally realized, and now can't work in his field due to the gap from his degree to the present. 
There is no shame in planning to enjoy your love. I truly commiserate with those who are struggling to make a few bucks at woodworking. I give most of what I make away or get reimbursed for the materials only by friends and relations, because there are several men and women who do fantastic work that need the jobs, I simply don't. From what I see we are all making about the same ;-)


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## JoshJock (Aug 14, 2010)

I just visited another post a similar subject. Many people likes the idea of spending $200 on a dresser that will last 2 years because that will give them the chance to but a NEW one with different style. If they pay $2000 for a dresser that will last forever then that'll keep them from buying a new one and change the looks of the room. I have a coffee table that my grandma gave us. is from 1910… that piece is SOLID and it probably has another 200 years left on it….. but it is UGLY and it doesn't go with any style i like!!!!! see my point? I value and know what it takes to work with wood and create something…. but I do believe that IKEA and WALMART are the woodcrafters competition and little by little the art of handmade furniture ( and other things) is disapearing. Trying to make a living out of making pens and clocks… I don't think so… hobby and sell a few pens here and there… SURE!


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Faced it, we area disposalable society. Our Projection TV went away after about 15 years; we can buy a better one for less thna teh cost of repairs. My wife knocked her scanner off a table; new one costs less than cost of shipping to service center and repairs. People get in the habit, just like my parents were in the habit of saving everything after the Great Depression. Tough for me to make the change )


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## pisdoff (Jun 30, 2008)

You are not going to sell a hand made chair to someone who is looking for a chair. They will go to Ikea or whatever. You will sell it to someone who appreciates it for the skill and dedication it took to build it, or someone who is awed by the design. Those are the only 2 places to make a living selling woodwork.
Probably the most important factor, all other things being equal, is where you sell your work.
If your work is good, and you sell it at a high end show, it will command high end prices.
If your work is good and you sell it at flea markets, it will command flea market prices.
As someone mentioned earlier, a glassblower is a good example. The time and money spent just to learn the process is enormous! Nine out of 10 glassblowers end up making gifts to sell, because that's where the money is on a regular basis. It pays the rent. You will sell a lot more $ 15 toy trucks than $500 jewelry boxes.
Even established artists have come to realize this, and many of them now make a 'commercial' line in addition to their art.


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## Gator (May 2, 2008)

This seems to be a very hot topic recently on a lot of threads…
My thought / belief on charging for a project is not as thorough as others, nor are my talents anywhere near the calibre as most on here.. but.. I believe one of the first things that needs to be asked to a potential customer when they ask you to build something is.. "how long do you want this piece to be around.. do you want something that you can admire or use for your entire life, your childrens, and maybe even your grandchildrens children.. do you want something that somewhere down the family tree, a person will ask about a certain desk in a house, and have your great grandchild proudly reply that my great Grandfather had that built by (insert your name here) and he knows this becausse not only was the story behind it passed down, but because you were proud enough to put your name on it somewhere .. if so.. continue on with them, but if they say they do not care.. hand them the Ikea catalogue and say good shopping. They need to understand the difference in quality of a hand built piece compared to mass production.
If you are good enough at this trade to confidently charge people for your work, then you should not undervalue your talents as a craftsman. Almost everyone that does not understand woodworking assumes you can build it cheaper than Ikea or Walmart because you do not have an empire to pay for.
One thing I have noticed in my short life as a "hobbiest", is that most of the proffessional artisians likely make more of their money teaching, consulting, and writing articles for magazines, then they do building projects.

Awesome thread a1Jim .. there are so many great points of view on this topic..

Gator


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## woody57 (Jan 6, 2009)

Gator, you head the nail on the head on this one. I agree with everything you said. I come from the cabinet industry and I beleive that most houses now (even expensive houses) get mass produced factory cabinets.
I know of shops in my area that buy all of their cabinets from a supplier. They are installers only.


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## zonkers (Aug 18, 2010)

The reality is in this economic atmosphere there are less people willing to let loose the cabbage. I'm not going to make any friends saying this but I think what you get paid is what the market will bare. I am in the classic car resto business. Not a good business to own during a recession. I have lowered my rates from $100 per hour to $65. I haven't cut my cost. The economy has forced me to make rate cuts to attract work. Maybe the frustration of this reality is why this thread is getting so much action. Think about the chat at the dinner table with the little Missus: Honey, should we buy that $1200 chair from the custom shop or buy a $50 chair from Wal-Mart? Mean while the TV in the background is droning on about the doom & gloom economy. Load up the kiddies, We're goin' to Wally World!


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

To make matters worse for the unemployed, the R's blocked the unemployment extension today. The 99ers club will not grow, there is no 99 weeks of unemployment anymore, Those who have been out looking for jobs for a couple of years are giving up hope. With 25% (total count, not gov't figures of who is drawing benefits) unemployment for the next decade, custom work will contiune to decline, IMO. But what do I know? In the late 80s, I predecticted the current downturn to be between my 60th and 80th birthdays, I was only 59 1/2 when it started. I got the catylist wrong too; thought it would be gov't inflating currency to cover baby boomers SS on top of job exports.


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## Puzzleman (May 4, 2010)

Gator, I think that your thinking about pushing the customer to IKEA etc. is a hobbyist attitude. I talk with my customers and offer several different price points. Some can afford my high end line, some can afford the lower end line. The end result is that they buy something from ME. The goal is to put money in my pocket.

I do woodworking full time and I do not want to miss any chance at a sale. I have had customers of the lower price items turn into repeat customers. If I had taken an attitude that I won't deal with them, I would have left a lot of money on the table for someone else. In every day and age, we have people of all different socioeconomic groups as customers. As a builder and designer, my challenge is to figure out a way to get a chance to get sales (money) from every one of those groups.


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## JimDaddyO (Dec 20, 2009)

whatever the market will bear. I knew a wealthy individual that paid $10k for a wine box that was nothing more that a few rough lathes nailed together. But it was old and had a "special" mark on it.


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## Gator (May 2, 2008)

*Puzzleman..* I did not intend to project that message. I was not intending to come across as "pay the high dollar or piss off".. and if I did.. I apologize to all, and especially those who rely on this trade to "really" earn a living. I was mearly trying to state the fact that the conversation needs to take place to explain to a potential customer that the pricing for "custom" woodworking is not comparable to walmart or Ikea. They can not expect to get a quality or heirloom piece, for Ikea pricing. As you said, they can possibly get something that is quality built with cheaper materials or construction methods to make it more attractive and affordable to them, but again.. this is a conversation that must take place. I can't speak as anything more than a hobbiest, as that is what I am.. so I do not know what it takes to "court" a customer in this field, or design a project while trying to earn a "true" profit. However, I am in a senior managment postion in my real job, so I know the difference between "actually" making money, and "appearing" to be making money in business today. This trade is not so dissimilar. For example, I stopped and looked at a crib / bed today at a box store, just like the one that Tom (ND2Elk) built for his Grandaughter and posted on LJ recently. He built a beautifull piece that will be passed down for generations to come. The one today had a cherry stain on it, and looked okay from a few feet away. The price tag - $179.00. Even if you build this from pellet scrap material you found at a dump you could not make a profit from it if you had a light burning and a saw running. This is what you have to try and compete with, and I do not envy anyone who makes a living in this industry today. Many do have a good client base, and do very well I am sure, and my hat is off to them, because building the project is only 25% of the battle. So how do you price your work so you can keep customers happy, keep them from going to Ika, and still be able to earn a "realistic" living.. I guess I still have no idea.. but back to my point.. if the "customer" does not care about the project, and just wants something to put magazines in for a while, or store clothes in until they outgrow it, you are wasting your time trying to compete with the box stores. Sometimes you have to send them to ikea, because if this is how you earn your living, you don't need experience building furniture.. you need profit.

Gator


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

I have been on small business tracks and know them well. I have learned the value of making a right decision and ones that didn't work the way that I wanted - so with long term effects the eventually enticed me to close my doors. It is a very hard road to travel and it isn't for everyone - and this includes your family.

I thought I would add a few-
I too am one of those folks in one career that is first a hobbiest but in this for the long term. I was reading a post on a different section of LJ where this one company is having other companies make components and they sell, assemble, and install. This is a great model (and profitable) for some. There is the other model that you create and sell to the company that assembles and sells. These types of companies have their place and I respect what they do. It makes it very hard for those that do individual and very custom work - many times the small shop to compete. One of the things that I have seen is that there are a lot of people that take the customers' money and do not deliver what they proposed. This make it bad for everyone, especially the small shops. When I make a commission piece, it has a serious price tag to go with it. I do this because I understand the aspects of the business. For stand-alone pieces, I also take another step, the customer pays nothing until I deliver and they inspect. If the customer decides that it isn't for them (haven't had this problem yet), I really don't wnt them to keep it. For built-ins, I don't do them for others, I send them to the licensed folks. I don't have the insurance, or licensing to do this legally.

There is a lot of money to be made on the "small" stuff. The nickels and dimes can add up but - and this is a big one - the triangle of "price - quality - quantity" will always add up to the same 180. To make a living at a lower priced item, the quantity must be much higher. Sacrifice quality, and you can produce more quantity with the same shop. If you find the right "small" item, you could mass market and make a serious fortune. How many of you are in this for doing that type of work? With everything, there are trade-offs and gotchas.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

I liked the book by Dan Ramsey "The woodworkers guide to pricing your work" 
He describes YECH pricing:
Y = You, do you prefer to sell a few high dollar items, or mass production. Direct sales or Wholesale or gallery
E = The Economy - others mentioned are people actually buying, also will they pay for the quality, or do you aim a little lower on quality to get the price in line.
C = Competition - unfortunately that includes the mass retailer/importer
H = Hunger - - where are you at in bills. Are you at a show and need to make some sales to cover expenses?

I think a comment missing (or I missed it) is that before we complain about Ikea…make sure what you are selling is actually better! Just because it is hand made doesn't mean it is really going to last. Did the maker allow for wood movement and expansion or did they Glue on the breadboard ends on a dining table with gorilla glue?
I have some stuff that is mass produced, including a set of solid oak bunk beds I bought from Sams Club. The quality is good, and I couldn't buy the materials for what the total cost was (279 as I recall). There is certainly a lot of particle board covered in shelving paper crap out there, but there is some stuff that is actually pretty good - the beds are 9 years old now and still going, with my 11 year old and 7 year old jumping off them all the time.


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## mosaicwes (Sep 14, 2010)

This ^ get's better all the time. Some excellent observations being made.

I agree that too many are quick to dismiss anything that's not made by an individual as being junk.
And I think Ikea in particular gets a bad rap.

I'm a cabinet make who struggles to make a decent living as a one man shop, turned to my much more artsy wall hangings, with which I was doing quite well until this damn economic crash. 
Now I'm back to doing whatever I can get to make ends meet. 
As we speak, I'm in the middle of a custom kitchen job which will contain no particle board. 
No melamine. I hate working with that stuff and this client doesn't mind the extra expense of real plywood.

However, there have been times when a client wanted walnut or cherry built-ins and the only material available to me was veneer covered MDF. I don't like working with it but the cabinets I built with it are still working fine and looking good after 15 or more years.

A few years back, my then wife, wanted some new closet/storage cabinets in our home. I did shop drawings and cutting lists, priced the material and figured out that the project was going to take about 3 weeks. That is - 3 weeks in which my shop would be devoted to that project so obviously as well as the cost of material there would be lost revenue since I wouldn't be working on any paid jobs during that time. 
It happened that she wanted to buy a light fixture at Ikea and I went along for the ride. While we were there, we came across closet/storage cabinets that were almost exactly what I was planning to build.
(other than being particle board rather than plywood)
The cost of the finished cabinets was almost exactly the cost of the material I had planned to buy.
That house (where I no longer live) has some very nice looking Ikea cabinets in it. The only thing I couldn't live with were the hinges which I replaced with Blum 170s. 
And then…. she wanted a new dining set. We wound up with a solid beech, (except for the table top which was veneer) made in Poland, table and chair set. Again, for about the cost of the material.
I've made solid wood tables and chairs. For other people. 
I wasn't in a position at the time to spend my time and money on custom made furniture, even if I did it myself!
Like the old Johnny Cash song said "I don't like it but I guess things happen that way" 
Sometimes you just gotta suck it up


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## 76winger (Nov 12, 2009)

I just wish I knew of a local Ikea so I go visit and figure out what you guys are talking about. Until I saw it mentioned when this thread began, I'd never heard of it before. From their web site it looks like the nearest one is 130 miles away, near Cincinati, so I probably won't be visiting one any time soon. From their webste, it looks kind of like Lowe's with furniture.


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## Gator (May 2, 2008)

I really should refrane from sounding like I am slamming Ikea .. I should have said "mass production stores".. Ikea is one of my wifes favorite stores.. they have nick nacks out the whazzoo .. and we actually have an Ikea pine coffee table in our basement that was bought 7 or 8 years ago to be a platform for a reptile tank the kids had.. and it has outlasted the reptiles ( much to my delight ) and is still a sturdy table that we have off to the side with "stuff" on.. it is good enough for what we needed it for, and was very inexpensve.. I could never have bought the wood for what we paid.. but … it is also not a piece that will be fought over at the estate sale..LOL

So.. did I mention this is a very good topic…

Gator


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

I have a local IKEA, my daughter has IKEA everywhere in her house, IKEA is great - for somethings. I buy small stuff including knobs, handles, my kitchen sink - its all good. They, like everyone else, is one of the places for ideas, pricing, comparisons, and did I say ideas?


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## SnowyRiver (Nov 14, 2008)

I dont often do work for hire, but I have sold the jewelry cabinets and firewood boxs in my gallery. I have gotten $850 for the jewelry cabinets and $250 for the wood boxs. I still think I am taking it in the shorts on labor, but it gives me my woodworking fix.


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## Taigert (Nov 20, 2007)

Wes Giesbrecht,
Wes this is going to date myself when I finished school Burnaby South. I wanyed more than anything to get into a apprenticeship as a Joiner. Back then everything was Union, at the time there where wat to many guys on the bench out of work. So I heard about a job as a Sheet Metal aprenticeship with Harrison Sheet Metal in Burnaby, I went and spoke with them and the next thing I knew I was doing Sheet Metal. We were working on the Workers Compensation Boards Rehab Center out in Richmond. Well you live in Mission I did the ventilation in a Library out there in the late 70's.
I spent 27 years in the Sheet Metal trade and made great money I worked my way up the ladder and was running big jobs when I decided to trade my tin snips for a tools that I can make sawdust with. One thing I was able to take from Sheet Metal and use in the Woodworking career I had taken on was knowing how to work in a production enviroment.
A little over 7 years ago God decided that he really didn't want me to meet him quite yet and he gave me a second chance at life. I decided that life is too short to be working at something that I have never enjoyed. I enrolled in a fantastic Cabinet Making Progam, actually they called it "Fine Woodworking". Up till this point of my life Woodworking had been a very serious hobby and passion. I had a Jr. Secondary shop teacher get me hooked on the smell of sawdust in the 8th grade. When I decided that this was going to be my vocation I looked at it as if it was a ventilation project I was running dor one of the big shops I worked for. By going back to school it help me make the transition from the hobby to what it takes to get the work out the door. After school I went to work for a good size Millwork shop, a Cabinet shop and when we moved to Indiana I ended up working for myself.
I don't have any regrets about making the change except one I wish yjay I had done it years ago. But I look at this as a business, and run it like a business. Do I get to make all the stuff I like to make, not really. Do I make money at it, yes. Do I make as much money as I want not allways. I make vet comfortable liiving and then some. The most important thing to me is, do I enjoy it, darn rights I do everyday. But like they say a bad days fishing is still better than a great day doing something you don't like doing. The big thing is it's like I said earlier I run it like the business that it is.
Boy I sure do miss home sometimes,

Taigert


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## BigTiny (Jun 29, 2010)

One way to lower the marketing time amd cost is to look for products you can get repeat sales from. ot being a pen turner, I'm not sure how long these take or the cost to make them, but I'd be very surprized if it was more than 15 minutes and a cost of $3 or so.Ever tried to sell a business on an item they can hand out as a bonus for the person of the month? How about items that can be used as promo items? Believe it or not, I've seen handmade pens sold for $20 each that were simply turned in a single wood species, then died and finished and branded with the company name and phone number. The seller's minimum order was 50 pieces, which translates to a grand minimum order! No idea of the cost or time involved, but I'd be very surprised if he made less than $25 per hour, and he got repeat business to boot.


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## birdguy (Jun 10, 2010)

I sometimes like buuilding. Book shelves and my shelves don't bow under a load of books like thoes shelves from big box stores and are all usa made by me


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## woody57 (Jan 6, 2009)

bigtiny

you have a very good point
The biggist profit I have ever made was on bird houses. They were simple blue bird house that were very easy and quick to build.


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