# WOODWORKING CLASS DISCLAIMER



## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Hi gang
I've been advertising to teach woodworking out of my shop again and reduced my prices. I know have students ready to attend but feel my disclaimer or discloser is to simply and want to update it. Of course I have my liability insurance in place . Since I don't have funds for attorneys right now I thought maybe some of you who have attended classes that might have a disclosure I could use as an example. I'm not trying to steal anyones disclaimer or disclosure just use some ideas that I may not have included in my old discloser.

Jim


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## flskipper (Apr 13, 2008)

Hey Jim:

Charles Neil has a number of disclaimers and disclosures on some of his videos. Bet he would be willing to share info with you.

Skip


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Thanks Skip I'll ask Charles


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I can email you the form the atty in the gun club wrote for our matches if you want it. Aanything that covers guys shooting handguns and rifles should cover a little sawdust production ;-))


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## grizzman (May 10, 2009)

MY DISCLAIMER- IF YOU CUT ANY BODY PARTS OFF WHILE IN MY SHOP, YOUR THE STUPID ONE AND I AM NOT RESPONSIBLE. IF ITS BAD ENOUGH AND BLEEDS, USE A BAND-AID, IF NOT DONT WHINE ABOUT IT AND GET BACK TO WORK. ......hows that jim…it seems to work LOL….way to go…im grining ear to ear buddy…...


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Thank you Bob that would be great and thank you Grizz


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## teejk (Jan 19, 2011)

grizz

I think he's from Oregon (where California people move when the politics get too conservative). I would proceed very cautiously on that one. I have heard that many schools have discontinued shop classes because of liability concerns (sigh).

Big concern for me would be the liability insurance. Does it cover "commercial" enterprises or is it strictly for home-owner use?

And then how old are your students? Above the age of consent? If yes do you trust them to accept personal responsibility if they do something stupid?

I hope a lawyer steps in here and can advise on wording for free. Otherwise, I would look to the wording on any machinery manual (those first 10 1/2 pages of the 11 page book). Then see if you have a ticket to a hockey game and read the language about "assumed risk".

I am not a lawyer and I hope you can share your knowledge with people that may or may not get the "bug" (and perhaps keep them off the streets!). But unfortunately we have some litigation problems in our country.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Teejk 
good point but my insurance is commercial and I defiantly only teach 18 years or older , except when i volunteer at my local high school wood shop. Most of Oregon is not were you move when your to conservative but there's tons of Californians up here for sure 
Thanks for your in put.


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## Schwieb (Dec 3, 2008)

Jim, Your's is a very timely request. I have been approached by several people to do some basic woodworking and turning classes. I have a liability policy and a general liability release for horsebackriding and carriage riding on our farm but want to have something for woodworking. Would you or anyone else consider sharing their liability waiver with me?


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Ken If someone shares with me I'll be glad to pass it on but I'm afraid I'm not able to share the cost if that's what you had in mind. Maybe there are others that can participate.


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## Schwieb (Dec 3, 2008)

Jim, No I'm more than willing to pay the fees myself. I, like you am looking for ideas on what to include in what I have already written up. Thank you.


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## reggiek (Jun 12, 2009)

a1Jim - here is something I posted on the chip carving class blog -

We must assist those lawyers to save us from ourselves……So Please folks….please do not drive a car or operate heavy machinery until you know how "XXXXXX" will affect you…..Stop "XXXXXX" immediately if you notice that you are missing fingers, toes, have blurred vision with night sweats, bleeding from the ears, nose or eyes….inability to obtain and hold an erection, thoughts of suicide or just want the 2012 holocaust to hurry up…..these are serious side effects and should be reported to your doctor immediately….stop "XXXXXX" if you find you are suddenly without breath or have feelings of depression and want to carve up the politician on your tv screen…these too are life threatening side effects….you should check with your doctor to see if you are healthy enough to "XXXXX"…….whew…..I give up…there are several pages more of cautions…

Honestly, you wish folks could take responsibility for theirselves. I understand if somebody gets hurt due to negilgence or by malice…..but an accident is an accident.

Seriously, you should contact your insurer and ask them if they have a recommended disclaimer….I believe that OSHA and your state counterpart might help as regards to possible regulations you must abide. You should provide each participant with a safety pamphlet (similar to what you find on power tools).....and stipulation that anyone not following the safety rules or operating machinery without proper protection will be ejected without refund. It is harder to blame you if you have a safety policy documented, in force and enforced.


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## teejk (Jan 19, 2011)

a1

good to hear that not all of your great state has the "litigation flu". stay away from "smart-ass" language on your waiver (might be funny at the time but not so funny if something bad happens).

now knowing you have a commercial policy, they may be the best source of your language since they will ultimately be the ones defending you if something goes bad. However it's back to the trust thing with them as it may send some alarms off and they'll make this a big deal.

wait and see if a lawyer chimes in. in the meantime I'll see if I can find anything that might give you a good start. the wheel has to have already been invented here (and quite frankly any potential damages won't attract any lawyer unless somebody cuts their head or a major limb off…yachts are expensive and a few thousand here or there aren't going to interest them).


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## teejk (Jan 19, 2011)

reggie…all I can say is (sigh)...but that's the country we live in and I'm too old to move.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

PM me an email if anyone wants the one I sent to Jim.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Hadn't thought of asking my insurer .I'm a little concerned about it being as long as a book and use a lot of legaleze type language .


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

For what its worth; The attys at the gun club said they are basicaly worthless but eveyone has them signed anyway.


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## Druid (Sep 30, 2010)

Hi a1Jim,
Here are a couple of possible examples for you to have a look at. Both are related to woodworking classes.
http://www.jdlohrwood.com/serv05.htm
http://www.dogwoodwoodworking.com/Registration

You might still want to run your final version past a pair of legal eyes before you start using it.
Good luck in your search.


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## jack1 (May 17, 2007)

How about this one a former boss told me.

"If you are dumb enough to use a tool incorrectly after me telling you how to do it the correct way for the 100th time and, parts of you fall on the floor, you deserve it!"

;0)

Jack


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## sandhill (Aug 28, 2007)

"Watch your fingers, watch your toes, keep your goggles on your nose. We can make our equipment and actions accident proof but not idiot prof" When I was a first line supervisor this was my safety talk for my guys, 2,039 days without a nick or a bump. I think it was the record. Good luck buddy.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

That's a good one, I like it ;-) I'm gonna use it if I ever hire another employee.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Lots of great ideas thanks for the help.


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## Resurrected (Jan 11, 2011)

Google it. There are things out there for everything and some are free.

I wouldn't teach in these times. We are the cause for making laws for everything, Now we can reap the rewards (fines) and the lawyers now get the pay day. (A shame)

If anything pay to get the statement Jim CYOA. Hope you know what that means.


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## tommyt654 (Dec 16, 2008)

Hey Jim
I know we don't see eye to eye on tools but I thought I might can give you some info as a group of us tried it here in Ga. 1st make sure you have a proper business license to operate out of your shop. I'm assuming you do since you have a biz there already. Check with your local county too see if you need a variance to teach . Our county shut us down(it was a strictly volunteer program) as we had no license to operate a biz. We had a 40×60 ft. shop with 3 tablesaws,3 bandsaws,2 shapers,3 DP's,4 router tables and all the assorted other power tools necessary to teach classes for free and still got shut down by our county that had discontinued woodshop classe's due to insurance liabilitys. We also were on private property but a neighbor complained because of the noise in the evening(must have been on the property cause it sits on 5 acres). Insurance is a really big deal because of the liabilitys you'll assume for anyone injuring themselves. Your agent should be able to set you up with a blanket policy,but I'd suggest getting and umbrella of at least 2 million just in case. Teaching woodworking is an admirable skiill to pass on too youngsters we had about 3 housewives and a few older guys and a handful of kids and really were enjoying teaching them but the powers that be shut us down until we have all the proper permits and qualifications. You might need to insure you check all the local and state gov't entitys 1st to see if they'll even let you. Just my $.02

Good Luck,Tommy


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Thanks Tommy
Actually I've been self employed for almost 40 years and a wood shop owner and contractor for 22 years and Yes I made many of those mistakes back when I started in business back then.I've been teaching adults woodworking for 10 years and yes it is rewarding. I have all the areas covered you listed but I think they are all good and valid points For others thinking of a similar venture .


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## DLCW (Feb 18, 2011)

In WA state I have been approached by several parents who would like to have me apprentice their high school kids in the art/science of woodworking. I talked with my atty and insurance agent and the general feedback was DON'T DO IT!!!! in WA state I would have to pay workers compensation and unemployment insurance on an apprentice. If they were to get hurt, even doing something stupid that I taught them many times not to do, I would be responsible for their rehab and recovery for as long as it takes. In WA state our recovery and rehab allowance is 10 times longer then most other states.

I was also approached by the local community college to teach woodworking classes in my shop. They wanted me to pay for all materials, personal safety equipment (aprons, ear protection and eye protection, gloves ,etc.) plus carry insurance on each student and have the classes in my shop. And all this for $17 per hour no matter the number of students. I don't know about anyone else, but that sure seemed like a loosing proposition for me. I politely said no thank you.

It seems that lawyers, Oprah, Dr. Phil and all those knock-offs along with lawsuit happy people have made it extremely difficult, if not impossible, to pass on our passion and knowledge of this wonderful trade to young and old alike. When i was young (early teens) I worked on a dairy farm (DANGEROUS) for many years. The deal between the farm owner and my dad was a handshake.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Hi Don 
From what I've seen of your work I can see why they would want you to teach.Very nice work. My local community collage does not pay much either but I teach out of the local high Schools wood shop and they pay for materials and insurance there. If it was just for the money I wouldn't bother but I enjoy teaching.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Can you imagine having a 14 year old kid riding miles to excise a quick as a cat Hackney stud that could walk right out from under most casual, recreational equestrians? Or windowing alfalfa on one of the first windrowers like an Oatonna (sic?) that was precariously balanced on its front wheels and would nearly throw the operator into the reel if you got it to bucking like a bronco? I'm sure what my dad, uncles and neighbors did to us growing up on dairy and cattle farms would land them in jail for child abuse in WA today. Probably just reprimanded in Idaho where I was raised. ;-))

Another electrical contractor I now had a man working out of the bucket lift. He told him not to take his safety harness off or stand in the side rails under any circumstances. While Al was gor to get material, he took of the harness, stood on the rails and fell out. He ws injured, but not seriously. The WA State Dept of L&I came to Al/s office to grill him for 3 full days in a row even thought the guy admitted he stood on the rails. I have been telling people employment is dead in this state for about 2 decades. They look at me with a blank stare, but now that their paychecks are disappearing, some of them may start to get it. Of course attys and brainless bureaucrats are the sole cause, just another nail in America's coffin.


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## DLCW (Feb 18, 2011)

WA State Department of Labor and Industries - also known as The Gestapo. Absolutely NO common sense possessed by any person in that entire agency. How do these things get so out of control? :-(


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I have no idea. I recently had a letter telling me to contact their office with no signature or even a name, just a form letter. No indication I was to contact any specific person. Since I had contacted them I thought it was taken care of. Later I received a nasty gram because I had not responded. That time I called the office number on the letter rather than directly to the people I normally deal with. The lady told me just because I contacted the office as directed did not necessarily she knew that. My inspector told me they never know when those stupid letters go out unless the contractors tell them. When I tried to explain to the woman they needed to get some communication or maybe even some coordination in the department it was obvious her IQ was way too low to comprehend such simple principles. When I mention she might indicate she needed a direct response in the letter, she seemed to indicate the recipients should know how screwed up the Dept of L&I; at least that is the way I interpreted her response.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I really should retract that statement about having no idea how these things get so screwed up. It is politically correct hiring practices of the state of WA.

I was working on repair of the first "green" building the state had on line. The projects were put out by the maintenance and operations people to get it heated, cooled and inhabitable. The state does not require any bonding of their architects or engineers doing design work, so things are pitifully designed by incompetents that have to be installed per drawing and spec by contractors who know it will not function. If the engineers and architects had to carry bonds like everyone else, the taxpayers would not be on the hook for their boondoggles.

The building had 120/208 distribution system. When I asked why the massive chillers were not 480, I was told the woman who is the managers decided to go with 208 because she could save a couple thousand on the emergency generator. Too bad she was not competent in electrical and mechanical designs. She would have known she was spending at least 100k on that building to save a few pennies on emergency generator. I really question the need for an emergency generator in a building full of class rooms?


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## REK (Aug 30, 2009)

Hi Jim,

Well I don't know much of that legal stuff but I thought I'd try and help :

All students of this class should recognize that this instructor is a woodworker: Therefore: if anythig goes wrong
please understand that due to my yearly gross income - I am judgement proof!!!!! LOL


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## tyskkvinna (Mar 23, 2010)

My insurance agent thinks that waivers of any kind are a joke. He just cares that we have an insurance policy that adequately covers anything that may happen. (Which it does)

That said, we have a pretty ironclad waiver that everybody has to sign before they do anything. However my scope is a lot larger than a woodworking class-it's also a model release, a non-disclose agreement and a pre-termination agreement.


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## DanLyke (Feb 8, 2007)

I recently talked with an attorney here in California about a waiver for Family Build Night. The gist was that you were writing it for a jury, and that you wanted it comprehensive enough that it came close to scaring people off in how grisly it got, but short enough that the jury would actually believe that it got read.

We reworked our waiver, which I'd put together from a couple that I found online, to be shorter, and specifically list each of the tools that we have kids use and the potential for injury from each. The parents are now happier to sign, because it's not a big obfuscated "*there could be death and dismemberment*", even though at each tool it mentions that there could be dismemberment and possibly death, but because it's listed with a tool they're familiar with they can now see how to get from here to there. And we feel better covered, because we now feel like the parents are actually reading it, not just signing it because their kids said "Charlene and Dan said I had to get this signed".

But, yeah, the impression I got from my attorney friend was that what I wrote was as good or better than a generic waiver written by an attorney who wasn't familiar with the field.

And ask your insurance agent for help, that's what they're there for.


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## rance (Sep 30, 2009)

Jim, I teach at WC so I just have their waiver. However, if I were making a waiver of my own, I'd include wording that the students agree to not use any tools they have not been instructed on, nor in a way that they have not been instructed.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

I appreciate all the wavers sent through PMs but if you have more I'll try and combine the best part of all of them together
Thanks everone.


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## woodism (Apr 2, 2010)

Try american association of woodturners.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Thanks for you help . I have my discloser done but It won't to look.


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## CantBurn (Aug 30, 2010)

Jim,

I found the following, it is $7.00 and it is a "Waiver and Assumption of Risks". It seems like a fairly standard "generic" form. Check under the preview tab, it shows the information the form has in it.

http://www.findlegalforms.com/product/waiver-and-assumption-of-risks/

The thought of your own business also made me think of legalzoom.com They help one get started with an L.L.C. Which also should cover the release of liability you are looking for.

Good Luck


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## Greedo (Apr 18, 2010)

in school you are not covered by the insurance if you are not wearing work clothing, steel tipped shoes and eye protection.
no loose cloting, scarfs, loose hair, untied shoes, jewelry, ties, or anything that hangs!


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