# The wait is almost over



## dannelson

I'm upgrading, I have run a shopbot for the last 5 years and it served me well . I learned a lot along the way. But as you grow so do your needs and wants. I purchased a brand new Camaster stinger III it's a 4×8 machine with vac hold down, 3 cutting heads they call it an x3 option, 4hp main spindle and 2 3,25 hp portercable side routers, a recoil indexing lathe that has a 8' x 12" capacity, laser sights for zeroing the x&y and touch off plate for the z. I also did the upgrades for the steppers I should be able to cut in the upper 400 " /min range. I really think that these are a great machine as far as how they are built and cut. Over the past few weekend I have seen the same machine as I'm getting in action and I was more impressed in person. The hard part is the wait, these machines are tested with the same computer that you get and built one at a time . I guess you can't rush quality . Dan Nelson , lots of pictures to follow come the middle of may. By the way first post on the new forum !!!


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## fge

Awesome. Congrats on the new machine. I hope to invest in a CNC someday. Not sure if and when though. Look forward to seeing how things go with your new machine.


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## Magnum

*CONGRATULATIONS GUY'S!! *You got your CNC Forum Up & Running!

Enjoy It!!

Regards: Rick


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## Underdog

Wow. I'm green with envy. From all I've heard, CAMaster is a brute of a machine. My little CarveWright is weeping in the corner. Congratulations! I'm sure they'll take good care of you.


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## RockyTopScott

Congrats Dan…it sounds like a beast.

I hear nothing but good things about Camaster.


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## MJCD

For those of us - perhaps the majority of LJ members, I'm not sure - there are both knowledge and experience hurdles to the CNC-side: Legacy, Shopbot, CAMaster. Many are similar in appearance, like Table Saws, I guess; all claim they're easy to learn, easy to operate - just program in what you want. Being an ex computer programmer, I know it's not that easy to learn a computer language (which one to learn?), and more difficult to implement.

Any help that the new CNC Forum can provide will be most appreciated.
MJCD


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## helluvawreck

Dan, it just so happens that the plant where they assemble these machines is my home town. I've been to the plant and the people are great. I'm hoping that one day I will be able to get one of their machines along with an epilog laser. I first saw their machines at the Atlanta Woodworking Show and at the time I didn't even know that they were in my hometown. One day I was just riding along and low an behold I was right in front of their plant. It's a small world. I believe that these are a good choice. Congratulations.

helluvawreck aka Charles
http://woodworkingexpo.wordpress.com


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## fge

Dan,

I am looking forward to following this thread and watching your experience. I looked over the camaster.com website and it appears very interesting to me. We build kitchens and so I am very interested in finding out if upgrading to a CNC in our upcoming future would be any real benefit to us. At this time it is just my wife and I who build cabinets, doors, drawers, etc… At this time we just cut out our parts on 20-30 year old table saws.

The price point on the camaster cnc seems very affordable so I will be interested to see your take on this CNC. I had also entertained the idea of possibly getting into a Shopbot CNC down the road.

Can you talk more in detail about: "2 3,25 hp portercable side routers, a recoil indexing lathe that has a 8' x 12" capacity". What advantage will this give you. I guess I am wondering because we often buy various decorative island legs, island corbels and just different carved decor to dress up kitchen cabinets. On our current job we are installing 4 large island corbels that are 34" tall and 7" wide, 7" deep or so. They are going to cost us a little more than a 1000.00 to purchase. Of course I just charge this to the customer.

Also, do you know if CNC will machine dovetail drawers (we currently offer dovetail as upgrade and do it on a jig)? Do you know what speed the CNC will take to nest one 4 by 8 sheet?

I probably will give Camaster a call. We are not looking right now but I think we could be interested in about 6-9 months or so.


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## Underdog

Jerry,
I won't answer questions for Dan about his machine, but I will tell you that a good CNC router will open up possibilities you never had before. I work in a cabinet shop in Georgia, and our production nearly tripled when we bought a KOMO 5'x10' router with a drill bank. (No rotary axis).

As for the dovetail drawers, you'll have to buy a dedicated set of tools for that. I believe there are several makers out there. Just Google "CNC Dovetail bits". Vortex, and Amana make sets of these, and I think Great Lakes Carbide may also. We have the Great Lakes MDF door tools and they work very well. I've dealt with Vortex and Great Lakes for years and they're both good companies.


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## Underdog

MJCD,

You don't have to be a programmer to run CNC routers. Most design programs now will output the G-Code necessary to run your machine. Many machines will have a controller made by Siemens or Fanuc. The software manufacturer will write a "post" for that controller. The post (script or text file) tells the software what G-code your controller likes.

Other machines may use something like Mach 3 (which I'm not familiar with) and I think it directly controls the servos.

At any rate, you don't really have to program these things if you don't really want to.


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## Puzzleman

MJCD, I have been running a cnc for over 10 years and just bought my second one to go with the first. I don't have a clue about code. For me it is a draw and cut operation. learning how to draw on the screen took a little while but it is really simple now and goes quick.

Don't fret over all those guys on some of the forums talking about g-code and such. Never cared to learn it.
I just want to draw and cut and build.


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## degoose

I do the design work in Aspire and the software then writes the Gcode in Mach 3 … this software runs the turning on and off of the spindle, speed of the spindle, plunge speed, feed rate and X Y Z positioning…. all in the blink of an eye…
Not quite that simple but …lots of fun…
The Laser runs directly out of CorelDraw or similar and uses printer drivers…so you design and then print and select the driver for the laser… almost that simple..


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## dannelson

Thanks for all the replys, I'll start at the top and work my way down the list, please forgive me if my answers seem segmented.Jerry you are a perfect candidate for a cnc . I was in the same boat as you not that long ago, the price point is affordable however…. The upgrades increase the price fast. The road I took was to get an entry level cnc first and learn what worked for me and then after that get what we could afford. We started out with a used 5×10 shopbot as I mentioned it was a good machine.and great help on the forum. With the Camaster the two side routers will enable us to not have to change bits after the tool path has run on that particular cut. So what I'm saying is typically on the old machine to save time we would program one bit to cut the entire job say a 5mm two flute that way we didn't have to change for the dados, cut outs and shelf pins. With the Camaster x3 option you have a spindle for your (major) cutting, typically for cabinets we are going to use a .375 compression bit for the dados and cutouts. Then in the cut file the spindle will automatically shut off raise up and the the side router will drop down and cut with what ever bit you choose to use we will go with the 5mm for shelf pins. For the # 3 router we will drop in a 7mm bit for the slide mounting holes. YouTube Camaster x3 and you will see. As far as the recoil thats a whole new ball game for us we plan to do everything from columns to ball and claw legs again YouTube has a lot look up barley twist on a Camaster.

Dovetails I have done them on my machine but it's kinda slow the mount just like your jig and the cnc acts just like your hand router but automated. I have read that the nested dovetails on plywood just don't look as nice as the jiged ones. The only thing nice about doing them on the cnc is that you can write the files in what ever increments you want the widths and thicknesses to be. The biggest I've done was a 32h x48w 24d box.

We also do corbels and we can ship to Texas.

Puzzleman Couldn't be more correct in his reply to writing code I only know goX0Y0 for those who don't know that's the (home base )for the router to park or the place for the cut file to begin, but were getting long winded enough to get into the specifics another time.

For any one who has questions shoot me a email and we can talk for real. [email protected]


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## fge

Dan,

You are a bad source for my temptation. Your CNC acquisition has my mouth watering  I have talked to my wife about it some today. I have considered a CNC for a long time now but have not been in a position to pull the trigger. For the past 18 months we have been in the middle of a 40 by 80 shop build. Now we are in and we are recovering from that build out. It was far more costly than I had ever imagined in the end and we did it using cash so it was tough. It is still not over yet, just yesterday I spent 1,000.00 on a roll up door and still need to buy one more down the road.

So I am hoping we can look more seriously at acquiring a CNC this year. Most of my acquisitions have been from saving money or buying used and cheap at auctions. I did call and spoke with a sales rep and he talked to me about their Lease program. That is sort of tempting because at this time we let our only full time guy go which saves us a nice chunk of money per month and moving into our own shop on our own land saves a very nice amount from our monthly overhead.

So at this time we outsource our doors, which I believe has been an excellent decision for us. And we are working with an installation crew for our larger jobs. We handle our own installation on small to medium sized jobs. A CNC would offer further help and shave some of our time allowing us to just do assembly and finish work for the most part, and concentrate on more cabinet details.

I am however fighting the temptation of doing a lease and hope to pay cash, but I am on the fence. I am sort of thinking about it like the CNC lease payment is less than a 1/4 of what we paid a full time guy and the CNC would give us more production and more accuracy.

So now that I have rambled. To the point! I seen your statement about making corbels. Not sure if you could make the corbels we need but you are welcome to look at what we need and shoot me a price.

Here is the link to the corbels I need to purchase in the next 2 - 3 weeks. http://www.osbornewood.com/1406.cfm


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## fge

Also, if you could cut the corbels, we would like to get them in Alder.


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## fge

Underdog,

I wanted to thank you for your response to my post. It was very encouraging and hopefully in the next year or so we can move into a CNC.

Thanks again, Jerry


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## dannelson

Jerry not a problem to produce the corbels . problem no machine until may15th. Our shopbot sold within days of listing it now I'm without but I have another source if I get in a jamb. As far as a lease look at it this way .my new machine cost 30k delivered and plug and play all the bells and whistles I'm ever going to need, I could have knocked 10 k off ,single spindle, no vac, no rotary lathe so 20k ish . If you man got paid $10 per hour x 2000 hours= 20 k per year. I nowhere near have the kind of shop you have ( I saw your web site IMPRESSIVE) . I went from 1 kitchen per month to 4. 1 man and a cnc, I outsourced doors / drawer fronts and staining/ finishing and did the installs myself. Point being cnc is never sick always well rested , works nights and weekends. But hates to run in thunderstorms . More on that in the mistakes with a cnc forum. Conservatively I would think the time savings alone per kitchen would be half. Time still Is money, I'm planning on cutting full sheets in 15 minutes or less complete. 20 sheets on a bigger kitchen , means Im done cutting before lunch. Hope the face frames are built and the doors are ordered.


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## MJCD

Great Work Guys - This thread is already taking its members forward…

MJCD


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## fge

Yeah, the thread has me excited about future possibilities. Thanks to Dan.


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## RockyTopScott

Great post Dan. I am learning in this forum already.

So you do the boxes and face frames and outsource the doors, drawers and finishing….correct?

This is something I would consider as well…..any drawbacks other being dependent on external vendors? Do you do any frameless cabs?

Thanks RTS


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## dannelson

Rocky top Scott yes that pretty much sums it up, so far so good as far as external vendors.

This is how I go about. it this is only a guideline for me.

The programs that I use for cabinets are cabinet parts pro and Vetric aspire for the g code to import to the machine.
Cabinet planner for the design work.

Cabinet planner is set up to give me my face frame dimensions, box sizes, drawer sizes and door sizes . This is not automatic. It takes time to set up the program as to how you build cabinets. Reviles , overlays ect.
Once I have this I order doors, The reasoning is that my door maker has hundreds of profiles to choose from and at $15 per sq ft for oak raised panel doors you cannot compete. Turn around is about on the average 7 working days.And the door shop is five miles away so I pick them up. No shipping costs.

Same with the drawers unless its a speciality configuration or under cabinet pullout. I try to keep the height and depth all the same on base cabinets.

I build the face frames at the same time the cnc is cutting boxes.it's easier to group them together coming off the machine and pairing with the correct face frame right away.

As far as the finishing I try to keep it simple for my painter as far as keeping the face frames loose and using prefinished plywood for the boxes That way I'm only hauling face frames,drawers,doors and shelves,.

In my part to the world not a lot of frameless on residential mostly commercial and I try to shy away from them because I don't have a production type edgebander. However I do cut for another shop in the area that does this type of work. Without a cnc ,but after A year of free advice he will be buying a machine soon

Sheezam another kitchen is born


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## JAAune

@ Jerry

A CNC machine is a great addition to a cabinet shop and I did meet a professional who leased a machine on the basis that it was cheaper than an employee and it worked for him. However, bear in mind that you won't see the benefits right away and most likely you'll actually lose productivity until you learn the ins and outs of the software and the machine.

This isn't meant to discourage you from making the move. Just make sure you can absorb the cost for the duration of the learning period.


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## SCOTSMAN

Personally myself not being in business and doing woodworking-turning as a hobby,I feel very happy with the non cnc method of woodworking, or even machining, which has a lot of things in it's favour with cnc.I am afraid if your in business however in order to keep competative maybe going or starting off nowadays with cnc machinery might be the only option if you don't want to get unfairly disadvantaged by other companies/competitors etc.For hobby work cnc is a new world which I although understand the principals of cnc machining I am both too old and unfit for the task but hey I wish all you guys happy machining. LOL Alistair


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## fge

Thanks JAAune,

I appreciate that advice. I am certain we will pull the trigger in the next 12 months or so. I plan to tie up loose ends with our shop build before taking on one other learning curve. I do look forward to it though.

If I were to take it on as a lease in place of our full timer, I am fairly certain we could weather the financial end of it. I have slowly positioned us in a way that minimizes our overhead expenses. Currently we only have a land payment which should pay off in approximately 5 years. So worst case we would have the CNC and our land payment to weather in a slow time. But a full time guy is a good 2000 per month, during slow times and good times.

Since I am not buying real soon, I will just try and begin a CNC fund and see where we are at when we are mentally ready to take on the learning curve.

Thanks. I am anxious to hear how things go with Dan's new CNC in the future.


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## oldnovice

*Dan* that is some CNC you bought.

CAMaster was one of the top three in my previous research on top quality *U.S. made* CNCs.


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## dannelson

10 days to go


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## JAAune

Watched pots never boil.

Incidentally, that machine and the FMT Patriot are the two I was looking at before deciding the budget wouldn't allow it at the time.


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## dannelson

I looked at fmt also but they didn't offer a 4th axis, and I'm not sure of the control software


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## dannelson

I stand corrected you can get a 4th axis on the fmt machine, I did a quick quote and it didn't take long to get to 50k with a few add ons.
A little to steep for my budget Dan


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## dannelson

The wait is over, The new machine arrived yesterday. I've been having too much fun to post pictures but we will soon.


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## DS

Hey Dan-O, we want pictures! 
Surely, with the long weekend, you can take a few photos!

Congrats on the new machine!

FYI, for JAAune, taking the plunge into CNC doesn't always involve a drop in productivity… It depends if you have guy with expertise and good software on your team. 
I've set up a lot of shops' machines over the years as a consultant. Most were at full production levels within the first week.


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## JAAune

I suspect that Jerry's shop doesn't have a CAD-CAM expert on staff and probably doesn't plan on hiring additional employees right away.


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## fge

No just me. I did start using Mozaik software hoping to minimize learning curve. I am decent with the software so hope we can minimize learning curve. I am not sold on Mozaik for long term, but for the beginning I will use it until I get competent with other software.


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## oldnovice

Yes Dan, we want to C your seeandsee, post some photos!


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## JAAune

@Jerry

Check out eCabinetSystems. It's free to professional cabinet and furniture shops and is supposed to be a pretty good package. I've sent in a request last week so I can try it out but am still waiting for the response.


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## fge

Thanks JAAune, I will certainly give them a try. I have heard of them in the past but had forgotten.

My goal with going with Mozaik right now was being able to hit the ground running. Bad as this may sound, it seems even while we tend to work 60-70 hours per week, we always seem to be running a week behind what everyone else wants. And we work quick and efficiently and I still feel behind most of the time. We tend to get work with a few high end builders here and there and they want the product fairly quickly.

So I am hoping to hit the ground running. We will see. Guess I would be a bit naive to think there is no learning curve as I am sure there is. But I am very mechanical and I do tend to excel with software as well.

Don't want to steal Dan's thread here.

Dan, How is it going with the new CNC. I am anxious to here from you on the new CNC and see whatever pics you may have.


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