# Are dowels "under-loved"?



## JeffP (Aug 4, 2014)

I have read with interest several threads here about various types of joints…you've got your biscuits and your dominos and even Matthais' favorite…the pocket hole. (not to mention the grand-daddy mortise and tenon)

In each of these threads, I have noticed that dowels seem to get mentioned very regularly…but somehow always as an "aside". As if they were the red-headed stepchild of the family.

It also seems to me that everyone would use a real mortise and tenon for almost every joint…if it were super easy to make one.

That last bit seems like the essence of the reason for the existence of these other methods…not as solid or awesome as a mortise and tenon, but a lot easier to make.

My question is along the lines of why dowels don't figure more prominently in that mix of "mortise and tenon substitutes for lazy people" (tongue in cheek)

So to me the beauty of the dowel is that it needs a round hole. Pretty much everybody (woodworker or not) owns a cordless "round mortise machine".

What could be easier? Pop a couple of holes in each side, glue in a couple of tight dowels…Bob's your uncle.

Can those who have some practical experience with the many "end grain to something" joint methods provide some pros and cons here on the under-loved dowel joint?


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## johnstoneb (Jun 14, 2012)

Dowels have there place. The problem is they were used for years by manufacturesr in places where they shouldn't have been because they were cheap and easy to use. They don't have the glue surface that a loose tenon has so they won't hold in those applications as well.


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## weldoman (Oct 7, 2012)

Glad you started this topic. I've been considering the Jessum dowel jig for about a year, haven't done much MT. Primarily, rabbets, dados,nails and glue, pocket screws and a few box joints. Yes I'm lazy. Looking forward to the comments.


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## JeffP (Aug 4, 2014)

Thanks Bruce…totally get what you mean about something getting a bad name as a result of having been misused in the past. (hmm, I think that applies to me.)

Anyway, the depth of my ignorance on this subject should not be underestimated. Can you give some concrete examples you have seen for where it has been used but wasn't appropriate? Are you thinking particle board furniture, or hardwood?

Also, more specifically, what sort of a situation are you thinking of where you say a loose tenon is needed in order to provide more glue surface? (type of furniture, and which joint - like "chair apron" or the like)

thanks!


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

I use dowels a pretty good bit in place of screws. Like on my workbench.


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## jdh122 (Sep 8, 2010)

Dowels are strong when the joint is made, probably as strong as mortise and tenon if you put as many in as you can. The problem is that over a very long time the differential expansion and contraction over seasonal heating and cooling will eventually make the joint fail. The dowel expands in two directions but the hole only expands in one direction, thereby crushing the fibers in the dowel a tiny bit.
Mortise and tenon joints don't have the same disadvantage, since you leave a bit of play for expansion in one direction.
But the process is quite long and slow. Windsor chair makers have thought a lot about this and have a few ways around it, but the problem remains a serious one over the long-term.
Not sure if this is clear - I read an excellent article recently on the question involving WIndsor Chairs, possibly recommended by a member on this forum, but I can't seem to find it right now.


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## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

Here is an article you might wish to read with some test results and pictures: https://woodgears.ca/joint_strength/dowel.html


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## jdh122 (Sep 8, 2010)

This is the article I mentioned: http://www.finewoodworking.com/how-to/article/the-dowel-joint.aspx

Unfortunately it's members only (I'm a member) but it's pretty interesting.


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## bondogaposis (Dec 18, 2011)

One of the reasons they are unloved is that every dowel hole, the mortise, is 50% end grain, so you really only have half the holding power. End grain glue joints just don't hold up over time.


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## TheWoodenOyster (Feb 6, 2013)

I agree with you on dowels being under appreciated. Krenov used them all the time. They have their place and aren't always appropriate, but I think we forget about them as an option lots of times when they would work just fine.


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## Yonak (Mar 27, 2014)

> They don't have the glue surface that a loose tenon has so they won't hold in those applications as well.
> 
> - johnstoneb


...Which is one reason why more than one dowel is normally used.

Dowels work so much better than biscuits. Dowels are the original "Domino".

Splines also seem to get short shrift, for some reason.


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## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

I also think they are under used but…..

Using dowels in not as easy as some would think. Matching holes need to be exact. The dowels need to be the right diameter and this can be difficult as the are not always exactly round and if too dry are under sized. You also need a groove to relieve glue pressure and to use the right amount of glue.

Given all that…I still use them at times.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

Doweled joints were the earliest joints used. They worked fine, but the holes had to align perfectly. Along came newer ways to make joints that made alignment issues easier and dowels fell out of favor. I still use them now and then and prefer them over biscuits. I have a metalworking background, so alignment is no problem for me.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

Doweled joints were the earliest joints used. They worked fine, but the holes had to align perfectly. Along came newer ways to make joints that made alignment issues easier and dowels fell out of favor. I still use them now and then and prefer them over biscuits. I have a metalworking background, so alignment is no problem for me.


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## rad457 (Jun 15, 2013)

I use Dowels as much as possible as well as spline joints for permanent shelfs, but then again I am trained in the Krenov style of thought.


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## ChipByrd (Feb 14, 2013)

I have the Jessum doweling jig and it makes lining up multiple dowels a very manageable task. I have only been woodworking about 3 years so I am no expert, but I haven't had any problems using the Jessem. I recently used dowels to glue-up a table top. I realize it doesn't need them for strength, but it made alignment a snap.


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

> It also seems to me that everyone would use a real mortise and tenon for almost every joint…if it were super easy to make one.


Actually tenons are pretty easy once you decide how you're gonna do them and get your setup established.

I do most of my joinery by hand, but tenons are the one exception because they can be so time consuming.
I use a mortiser (a router set up is just as good, maybe even faster) and a tenon jig on the TS (I use the Steve Latta type).

If you do floating tenons, they are even easier.


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## Planeman40 (Nov 3, 2010)

I think JeffP is right in the first post. Early on dowels were used in machine-made manufactured furniture and thus are considered bad form by furniture purists. Add to that that poor gluing practices by hurried workers and the use of hide glue which is brittle when aged added to the number of failed doweled joints. I have seen plenty of poorly glued doweled joints, usually a slap dash application of glue, in my years of woodworking. To get a properly glued dowel joint the glue must be applied thoroughly to BOTH the dowel and the hole, and ALL the way into the hole. Also, there must be a way for excess glue to be forced from the dowel hole when pressing in the dowel or the dowel will not seat all the way to the bottom of the hole. This is the reason that dowels MUST have one or more groves along the length of the dowel to allow the excess glue to escape. The new glues like Titebond don't really harden like hide glue. They have a certain amount of give or flexibility that can accommodate the slight movement of wood due to varying moisture content. And they are stronger. Personally, I love doweled joints. I haven't had one to fail yet.

Planeman


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

Dowels have a bad reputation because a lot of furniture built with them fell apart and it has nothing to do with how strong they are versus a mortise and tenon. Like I said in the other thread, these tests you see on Youtube are to suck in viewers and keep the paychecks coming but they are irrelevant to the real world. How many dowels or mortise and tenons have you ever seen fail in a normal real world application because they "weren't strong enough?" Dowels fail because the glue fails. Some say they fail because of irregular expansion and contraction but I don't buy it. Based on my experience, they fail because of inadequate glue. I've taken apart old furniture where some of the dowels come out clean as a whistle and others had to be drill out-the difference was the amount of glue. None of the dowels were any shape but round. If you want a real world test, build identical chairs, some with m&t, some with dowels, then come back and check on them in 20-30 years.


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## CB_Cohick (Dec 22, 2014)

My woodworking started with nails, then screws, then pocket screws, then dowels, then rabbets and dados, and now I am learning how to do mortise and tenon. I bought a doweling jig, to help align the holes and get them straight, and have had no trouble with it. Lately I have been using dowels to line up and hold together boards I am gluing up along long grain, kind of like how Norm uses biscuits.


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## WoodNSawdust (Mar 7, 2015)

As other have said alignment issues are usually my problem. Let the hole alignment between surface be off about 1/64 and they don't go together. Drill the hole at an angle (other than 90) and they don't go together. I consider dowels to be a last option. I have not tried loose tenons but suspect that they also require extreme accuracy. For places where it won't be seen and is not "extremely fine" furniture I use pocket holes or biscuits.


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## borny (Nov 11, 2012)

I often thought of this same question. I have the dowelmax and live it. However, i find making moryises and tenons not much harder to make, just more time consuming. But I'm conflicted on which to use. If dowels are simple and strong why not use them.


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Mafell+dowel+machine

I love the indexing rail of the Mafell even though it's cost prohibitive.


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## Pezking7p (Nov 17, 2013)

Pjones46 I like the article you posted comparing m&t and dowel strength. Sums up my suspicions pretty well.


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## Hammerthumb (Dec 28, 2012)

I sometimes use small dowels to re-enforce joinery. An example below:




























The maple panels were joined to the cove pieces which had rebates. 1/8" dowels were used in place of fasteners as the maple was being joined to Ipe. Fasteners will not work in Ipe very well.

Point being, there are many ways to do joinery, and for this joint I think using dowels was the best option.


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## lcurrent (Dec 15, 2007)

This table top had a bunch of dowels it has 2 beer Ice buckets and a cover if not using the buckets the 
legs were Mortise Loose Tenon ( Not Shown )


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## pintodeluxe (Sep 12, 2010)

A pegged mortise and tenon joint will survive the years, even without glue. That is why it is king for me.

I like to attach decorative corbels with biscuits on the long grain side, and a dowel on the end grain side. The dowel acts as a registration pin for the corbel, and will keep the part from ever coming loose if it takes a blow. So really, I only use dowels for secondary joints.


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## Ocelot (Mar 6, 2011)

I like exposed dowels.

Here's a frame I did with large exposed dowels. It is not glued at all. You can push the dowels out to take it apart. It's holding up well for a couple of years now. Of course, a frame has only minimal loads and no live load so it's an easy case.

http://lumberjocks.com/projects/92631

I was working on a cradle with a ton of exposed dowels but didn't finish. Using pale dowels in cherry makes a nice contrast.

-Paul


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