# Help me with these bread board ends



## DTOLAR (Aug 7, 2015)

I'm on a rush job to create a farmhouse table.

My top is 4 boards, each 1.25" thick, 8.5" wide, and 64" inches long. Bookmatched spalted hackberry.

Old family tree that blew over, I got a few big limbs milled and am working with what I got.

My wood for the bread boards ended up being 4" wide, so that puts me at exactly 72" long and 34" wide.

This table is supposed to be pretty rustic, so my joints aren't perfect, there's some tiny gaps, all the edges are rounded over, even between the boards on top, I left some mill marks, etc.

I could cut more ends and have them 6" wide, but I honestly think 4 looks good, and like I said, time crunch.

The legs are big 6"x6" turned legs, and Ill be making the aprons tomorrow, top will be held to the aprons with z clips.

Since I have to account for expansion across the top, I cant just hard mount the ends, I could do a tongue and groove, but I'm worried about loosing that much length, to be strong wouldn't the groove need to be over and inch deep? That would cut my total length down to 68-70". My issue with doing that, again, is stability, and allowing the top to swell and contract.

My current plan is to do tight fit pocket screws on the bottom, in the middle 2 boards of the top, and then on the outsides do pocket screws, but oval the holes a bit. I'd also brace the bread board a little underneath, but still allow for some movement.


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## jonmakesthings (Feb 28, 2016)

Im actually in the middle of building almost the exact same table myself. What I'm planning on doing to attach the top is drive a screw on each end right in the middle of the short sides to secure it, and then use z clips on the sides to allow for movement.


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## DTOLAR (Aug 7, 2015)

Yeah, you should use z clips on the short side to move back and forth, you CAN use them on the long side as well if you want. My issue is attaching the bread boards to the top.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

Have you thought about this method of joining the top to the aprons:
https://www.finewoodworking.com/media/TabletopsFlat.pdf
This shows shop made brackets but you can also buy metal ones.

Here is a good overview of breadboard ends that use dowels with expansion slots:
http://my.woodmagazine.com/woodworking-tips/techniques/joinery/breadboard/

If losing a couple of inches is a problem, You might be able to use a spline or perhaps loose tenon to join the ends to the rest of table tops. I am sure someone will chime in if that is a bad idea.

Also, how dry is the wood? It sounds like you milled it from logs and air dried the wood yourself? That can take a year or more if the tree hasn't been dead for a while and dried out quite a bit before milling it. If it is not dried down to at least 15%, I would think that even the best of techniques might result in the top cracking somewhere along the way. At a minimum, you might want to make sure your client understands the risks of using non-kiln dried wood in a table top to set expectations.


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## jonmakesthings (Feb 28, 2016)

Ah I see what you mean. I attached the bread boards with 1" tongue and groove and then wedged it with walnut in the center. I'm pretty confident it'll be strong enough


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## DTOLAR (Aug 7, 2015)

Tree fell in November 2015, milled Feb 2016, kiln dried for 3 months, down to 10%. But our ambient humidity as I sit here is 43% and that's indoors in a "dry" building. I can tell the boards are heavier than when I picked them up a week ago.


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## DTOLAR (Aug 7, 2015)

I think I'm just going to bite the bullet and try to do this the correct way, there's no skills involved that I don't have, I've just never done it.

I'll cut each end down to a 1.5" deep, 1/2" thick tenon, cut a mortise in the ends and peg it. It will cut down on my overall length, but I could also cut new ends to be wider.

The mortise has been my fear, but if it's blind, I can use a drill press and forster bits to make it really uniform.


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## isotope (Dec 14, 2013)

Your other option would be to use loose tenons. That way you would not be reducing the length of your table. Mortising the ends of your long boards won't diminish your fear though…..


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

I think that as long as you only apply glue to the boards in the middle of the table and the holes in the tenon for the dowels on the outside are oversized for expansion you can feel like you did everything possible.

Looking forward to seeing your table.


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## chiseler (Dec 20, 2015)

combination of long loose tenons,and short splines would be the way to go if you don't want to loose length.Just make sure the end mortises in bread board are wider than necessary along with elongated draw board holes.
mortises are easy with a plunge router with template guide and a template to fit template guide.That's if your not an unplugged woodworker.
I hope this helps
good luck


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## chiseler (Dec 20, 2015)

combination of long loose tenons,and short splines would be the way to go if you don't want to loose length.Just make sure the end mortises in bread board are wider than necessary along with elongated draw board holes.
mortises are easy with a plunge router with template guide and a template to fit template guide.That's if your not an unplugged woodworker.
I hope this helps
good luck


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## jonmakesthings (Feb 28, 2016)

I cut the mortise on my bread boards at the router table. Best way to get them straight and uniform


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## DTOLAR (Aug 7, 2015)

I tried doing the mortise with a drill press and forster bits, but halfway in I decided that was going to be a PITA, so I bought a mortiser, I'll try it out tonorrow


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## pintodeluxe (Sep 12, 2010)

Mortisers are great to have for breadboard construction.


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## chiseler (Dec 20, 2015)

Thats how I do it.Just make sure you leave the proper clearance between the drill bit and hollow chisel,

Ask me how I know…LOL
Good luck with the new toy


> I tried doing the mortise with a drill press and forster bits, but halfway in I decided that was going to be a PITA, so I bought a mortiser, I ll try it out tonorrow
> 
> - DTOLAR


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## DTOLAR (Aug 7, 2015)

Mortiser appears to be a great tool, but was a bit of a pain in this application, Since my board was only 1.25" thick, the fence did not extend far enough, and the hold down is only good to stock about 2" wide, my boards are 4.

Using it required me to be real creative with clamps, and making 1/2" holes along a 30" mortise was lots of fun, 120+ plunges, and having to redo the whole set up every time. I came out looking ok, but regardless, I set up my table saw to match my mortise dimensions and ran it through both sides, just a little clean up pass, made everything nice and uniform.

In my fledgling years all I had was a table saw and I got really good with it, lol, floating tenon's, tongue and groove, sliding dove tails,

For my tenons, I set up a fence and put my skil saw to the correct depth and ran a pass to give me really straight uniform line, tomorrow I will remove the rest of the wood with the router.

Two questions, I would assume I can bevel my tenon a bit so the mortise will slide on easier correct?

Second, My mortise is ~2.25" deep, my tenon is 2" long. Since my mortise floor isn't super consistent, theres about 1/8" variation, is this going to be a problem?

I wanted to only do an inch tenon, but I'm really worried about the breadboard not being stable, It seems like in all the examples, they go atleast half way into the board with their mortise, 3.5" board, 2.25" mortise seemed right.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

Are you talking about beveling the tenon faces (flats that run the entire width of the table) or the edges (ends) of the tenon? I don't think you want to taper the faces. You want it to slide on with a little friction but you do not want to have to pound it on. if you taper it, you won't get a good glue surface in the middle 1/3 where it will be applied. You can chamfer the end a little but do not taper it. I think that it is okay to bevel the edges slightly since there won't be any glue there.

It is okay for depth to vary slightly as long as doesn't bottom out anywhere.

Edit: The rule of thumb is that the mortise depth should be about 2/3 the width of the end piece so it sounds like your depth is close enough.


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## DTOLAR (Aug 7, 2015)

Yeah Just beveling the edge a bit, to get the board started. just an 1/8th" or so.

I cut the bottom half of the tenon today, going to do the top tomorrow, working night shift sucks


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## DTOLAR (Aug 7, 2015)

So far everything worked out pretty well.

Torrential rain in Texas has slowed me down

I think I screwed up by cutting one long mortise down the length on the board, as opposed to cutting a mortise and tenon on each board. With that big void, the wood bowed in. this was fine because it made the bread board pinch the tenon, held on quite nice, But I guess the humidity got to it and When I went out Tuesday, the mortises were flared out, they just fell right off the tenon. I was kind of pissed, but I clamped them between some flat boards, they went back to their original shape overnight, but that worries me that it may happen again and pop off the dowel after its done.

I've left the bread boards off for a few days to see what they do


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

Not sure I understand what you are describing. What do mean that mortises were flailed out? Are the edges of the bread board sort of curling? A picture would help.

I suppose that if the tenon/groove in the breadboard is curling, you could cut the tenon so each board in the top basically has a tenon and then glue filler strips into the groove in breadboard ends to make individual mortises to stabilize the breadboard? Just make sure the resulting mortises are wide large enough to allow movement. Ive never seen it done that way but that doesn't mean it isn't sometimes.


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## DTOLAR (Aug 7, 2015)

Yeah, think of opening an envelope. So whereas my mortise was 24" long, and 1/2" wide, it was now 1/2' wide on the ends and 1" wide in the middle.

Its like the wood expanded and pulled the two sides away from each other. So my breadboard fit incredibly loose.

Either way, it went back to normal overnight, so who knows.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

With all the rain, it must have picked up some moisture from the air. One thing that I read said that because of its fairly high shrinkage rate, longer boards may be more difficult to use. Another said that it should be dried to a maximum moisture content of 8%. Given that, it might be a good idea to make the adjustment to the mortise and tenon I suggested above though I've never worked with Hackberry so maybe someone who has can offer their thoughts.


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