# After-market SawStop technology to different saw



## jklingel (Mar 26, 2015)

Does anyone know if SawStop, Bosch, or anyone else has any plans to add blade-stopping capability to other brands of table saws? It just seems a no-brainer that someone would offer a "magic box" that could be fitted to other saws, since there are a trillion "other saws" currently in use. Thanks. john


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## bbasiaga (Dec 8, 2012)

Well this is sure to open a can of worms. But in short

Sawstop = no. They are trying to license/force their technology at outrageous prices on other manufacturers, who want none of it.

Bosch = probably not. I think they are part of this power tool association which has open sourced some or all of the technology currently being put in the Bosch contractor saw. So it would be up to the other MFGs to make their own adaptation of it.

It would be a big feat for either company to go back and reverse engineer their technology in to the myriad of other saws on the market. And with product lines in power tools changing rapidly at some of the price points (new models each year), a lot of the work they put in could be obsoleted by the time their retrofit kit was ready.

I would like to upgrade to a nice cabinet saw in the next year or so. Sawstop is a leader for me right now on quality and the safety feature, but I am hoping there is some alternative using the bosch technology that will come to market, or at least be announced, in that time.

-Brian


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## English (May 10, 2014)

I saw a system a few years ago that a man designed and built that used photo sensors around the blade guard to sense your hand getting to close to the blade. His system would stop the motor and use dynamic brake technology to stop the blade. He did not want to market this his self and was looking for investors.

Here is the link. http://www.whirlwindtool.com/


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## johnstoneb (Jun 14, 2012)

In a nutshell, The industry does not want to to put the technology on their saws. Sawstop developed the technology, offered it to the industry. They were turned down by the industry in such a way that they went to legislation and the courts and lost there also.
They then disigned and started selling their own saw in competition. They have developed the saw to the point it is quality wise one of the top saws on the market today and competitive on price. I think Bosch will probably end up miking a tablesaw and putting there technology on it. They will have the same problem selling to other manufacturers as sawstop.
I think that with two manufactures offering the technology that market forces may eventually force the other manufactures to start offering that technology but it will be year down the road. Who knows Bosch may have the money that sawstop didn't to buy enough politicians to get some kind of legislation.


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## bonesbr549 (Jan 1, 2010)

Ok first Sawstop went to all big manufacturers offered to license it no one would touch it so he decides to build a class A saw around his invention. He did it and is kicking their butts in sales. Good for him. As to its costs. People think is made from a few off the shelf parts and it should be the same cost as a grizzly. Some don't like his politics butt hey to each his own

Bosch is comming out with a saw called REAXX. It is a job site saw that will compete with Sawstop version. Bet you a dollar to doughnuts it's about the same price. This technology is awesome but not cheap to manufacture. An emergency room visit is one hell of a lot cheaper

http://homefixated.com/bosch-reaxx-table-saw/

Here's a video of the new Bosch.


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## HarveyDunn (Aug 29, 2013)

Personally, I don't get all that excited about stopping the blade, as I'm a push block/stick fanatic who never gets their hands within 8" of it.

Kickback is what I worry about.


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## altendky (May 7, 2012)

> Personally, I don t get all that excited about stopping the blade, as I m a push block/stick fanatic who never gets their hands within 8" of it.
> 
> Kickback is what I worry about.
> 
> - HarveyDunn


I would think they could add an additional trigger to deal with kickback, or at least reduce the velocities involved. In general, things (excepting the blade) should not be moving fast around a table saw. If they do it's generally a bad thing… so retract the blade. Ooh, maybe I should patent that idea and sue SawStop for not implementing it and paying me royalties.


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## HarveyDunn (Aug 29, 2013)

Kickback takes less than an instant.


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## altendky (May 7, 2012)

> Kickback takes less than an instant.
> 
> - HarveyDunn


Yep. Hardly means it's not possible. See this previous post I made on the topic of necessary response times. I'm not sure what technology could measure velocities at that rate but then again I haven't dug into high end laser-mouse style motion sensors or the like. It certainly may not be possible at a reasonable price with present technology, but even if that is true there is hope within the next 5-10 years with the extensive development being done for sensor technologies.


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## jklingel (Mar 26, 2015)

Thanks for the info. I did not know that SawStop offered the technology around the block and got dumped on. I like the idea Bosch came up with so the blade is not ruined, but then how often are you going to really use the emergency brake? The SawStop quality sure looks like it is there. Whirlwind looks interesting. cheers. john


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## HerbC (Jul 28, 2010)

> ...
> 
> An emergency room visit is one hell of a lot cheaper
> 
> ...


Bones,

Think you got it backwards. I could have bought three SawStop saws for what my medical care cost when I had my tablesaw accident.

Be Careful!

Herb


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## jklingel (Mar 26, 2015)

Not to mention how inconvenient it is to lose a finger part or two. A woodworker (3rd generation, been at it for decades and does excellent work) came out last year to bid on our cabinets. He had a nasty table saw gash that almost cost him half his hand; he shortly thereafter bought a SawStop. Yes, push blocks and sticks can take abuse all day long and not complain, or else get a SawStop and HOPE it really works. cheers. j


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## altendky (May 7, 2012)

> Thanks for the info. I did not know that SawStop offered the technology around the block and got dumped on.
> 
> - jklingel


And they also sued all the other companies trying to force them to license and use the technology. Would have set a bad precedent if they had been able to force others to use the tech they had a patent (aka monopoly) on.

Anyways, the first reply really answered the question. It's not a little bolt-on addition but rather a completely different structural design which would be much too costly and time consuming to apply to all the existing saw variations out there.


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## AHuxley (Apr 22, 2009)

As for the OP (an aftermarket replacement for a blade drop and or brake system) the answer is a simple NO. Retrofitting a saw would almost certainly require replacement of the entire trunnion/motor assembly along with the electrical controls. While this is probably simple from a engineering perspective the cost of the kit would almost certainly get very close to the cost of a new saw with the parts already installed. Plus manufacturers would have to provide a LOT of support for the retrofits and taking on the liability of these owner installed kits would be crazy. Requiring a service center to perform the install might alleviate some of the exposure liability wise but would almost certainly push the total cost to at or above a whole new saw.

It is possible that as this technology becomes more completely adopted that there could be a retrofit along the lines of the vapor ware Whirlwind but the efficacy and cost of that approach is still unknown. Bottom line if you want the safety pony up for a Sawstop or the Bosch if a site saw is adequate for your needs.


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## intelligen (Dec 28, 2009)

> Sawstop = no. They are trying to license/force their technology at outrageous prices on other manufacturers, who want none of it.


Update: Steve Gass has said within the past year that he no longer has any intention of licensing his technology to anyone.



> I saw a system a few years ago that a man designed and built that used photo sensors around the blade guard to sense your hand getting to close to the blade. His system would…stop the blade. He did not want to market this his self and was looking for investors.
> 
> Here is the link. http://www.whirlwindtool.com/
> 
> - English


Are you sure he was using photosensors for flesh detection? That seems like it would be very prone to false tripping, but on the other hand I suppose it might work well enough. Anyway, I emailed him a few weeks ago encouraging him to bring his product to market on his own if he doesn't find anyone to license it soon, but he said he doesn't really have the time or resources to do that on his own and would rather see some younger, energetic engineers refine his design and bring it to market.


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## bonesbr549 (Jan 1, 2010)

> ...
> 
> An emergency room visit is one hell of a lot cheaper
> 
> ...


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## Deano56 (Feb 18, 2015)

people for years have used woodworking machinery without injury by being cautious, careful or whatever. Sawstop invents a saw with this safety feature and everyone worries about losing a finger or getting seriously injured. If people are that fearful of injury, they should not be using a table saw. To me a shaper with a large cutter spinning 8K is far more dangerous, band saws with close work are dangerous too, even an edge sander can grind down your fingernails and beyond in an instance. Putting fear in someone through marketing does wonders!


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## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

People have not using woodworking equipment for years without injury. There are more than 30,000 emergency room visits a year and several thousand amputations each year. The majority have happened without a blade guard.

Forget Sawstop if you want and just use the blade guard when you can. That will reduce injuries.

Table saws have more injuries because it is probably the most commonly used woodworking power tool.


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## jklingel (Mar 26, 2015)

no doubt about recklessness being the mother of injury, but a table saw is still a spooky machine. push blocks and sticks are great, but i can see how one could slip sometime and that could get ugly. either way, pay attention! cheers. j


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## sepeck (Jul 15, 2012)

In the old days we used steel dash boards to stop us during an accident. These stupid kids and their seat belts and these younger whiners with their high falutin talk about "air bags" Air bags! The name says it ALL! Bunch of wind bags full of hot air! Better off if people just get hurt you ask me. I remember the old days when lots more people actually died in accidents. To many people living through accidents now a days. Doesn't teach responsibility is what I say. So what if more bystanders are hurt, it'll be a lesson to them ALL you ask me!. 
</sarcasm>

Look. If for some reason you don't like Saw Stop technology, that's fine. You don't like the person behind Saw Stop, that's fine. You believe some industry narrative about how this guy is going to destroy wood working in 'country of your choice' that's also fine. But seriously, it's technology. It seems to work. Is it more costly? Sure, but that happens. Will it reduce risk? Sounds like it. If I could afford it would I get one? Yes.

Why? Because as fast as I am, I am not faster then a spinning metal blade (why I used push sticks, etc). And while I never really thought I was faster then flying piece of wood, I have learned I am in no way faster then a kick back. By the time you react with "OH S" the wood is either going by you or punching into your stomach. I am reasonably careful yet still this thing called an accident happened.

When I was 12, I had to interview a person in my family older then 60. Then entire family made me interview my grandfather who was born in 1900 to a family of loggers in the Sierra Nevada's out of a town called North Fork. They cut Red Woods with a hand tools. I have half a dozen pictures which are awesome with these trees twice as thick as the loggers are tall. One of the questions was "What was the 'good old days like?' His answer has colored my perception of those days ever since. He said people died of the flu, people died in the logging mills (when he was a teen) because it was less safe. He said he and his wife were alive because of new advances in medical technology.

I get that some people in this thread seem angry about the 'good old days' when there were no accidents and how we don't need none of this new fangled stuff in our lives, but like I said, if I could afford it, I would buy it now. Why? Because I like my fingers and sometimes I do stupid things (like work tired). I have kids and they want to learn how to work with tools (hand tools to start) and eventually they will learn on the power tools as well.

Don't pretend accidents don't happen. Don't pretend that these power tools are not inherently dangerous. Don't be making claims that someone is 'putting fear into marketing' when they have these statistics to back them up and to many of us know people that have gotten hurt on the job, in their shops or even mentioned it in these very forums. Make your choice to not use the technology, but don't pretend that accidents don't happen or let your biases get in the way. This thread alone makes it 'obvious' that not everyone is 'worried' doesn't it?


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## unbob (Mar 10, 2013)

I thought I would show two of the most dangerous machines I have used, first is a tool&cutter grinder. The 300lb table is on ball bearings, but can be moved with the little finger. What can happen is, if the table stops are not set, or the depth of cut way off, the grinding wheels can crash and burst, puncture the body or head. There have been deaths using these. In industry "in earlier days" one would be carefully trained before set loose on one of these. Its an obsolete machine in these modern times….
If one takes precautions such as place a steel plate between you and the wheel, ones chances of survival are greatly increased.
I will toss in a photo of a small metal lathe with a lot of power. These little devils have taken more then few out. Not much stats on metal lathe deaths, but they happen, a college student was recently killed, got their hair caught in it. Of course modern lathes have full enclosures. Older machines like these, are ending up in home shops these days, well, they are still useful. But, be very careful!


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## AZWoody (Jan 18, 2015)

There will be other technologies, it's inevitable.
Saw Stop's success is showing the other companies that there is a market for safety features such as these.

I do think it's funny though how people say that it was "offered" to the other companies and they declined.
The developer tried to sell the technology, for a premium price and the companies declined. Talking to people who worked with the companies, I have heard prices of up to $1000 dollars per unit and no assumption of liability if something were to go wrong with the product. I don't know any company in their right mind that would agree to a deal like that.

Also, if the safety was the utmost concern, then Saw Stop could do what Volvo did when they had the patent for the 3 point seat belt. Give the patent away for free for the greater good and safety of the public.

That is what I would consider "offering" the technology to the other companies.


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## jklingel (Mar 26, 2015)

nice machines, and certainly body snatchers. if the $1,000 /unit is true, that is pure greed, not good business. let's hope that an extra zero was added by accident. cheers. j


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> I thought I would show two of the most dangerous machines I have used, first is a tool&cutter grinder. The 300lb table is on ball bearings, but can be moved with the little finger. What can happen is, if the table stops are not set, or the depth of cut way off, the grinding wheels can crash and burst, puncture the body or head. There have been deaths using these. In industry "in earlier days" one would be carefully trained before set loose on one of these. Its an obsolete machine in these modern times….
> If one takes precautions such as place a steel plate between you and the wheel, ones chances of survival are greatly increased.
> I will toss in a photo of a small metal lathe with a lot of power. These little devils have taken more then few out. Not much stats on metal lathe deaths, but they happen, a college student was recently killed, got their hair caught in it. Of course modern lathes have full enclosures. Older machines like these, are ending up in home shops these days, well, they are still useful. But, be very careful!
> 
> - unbob


I was a 2nd year machinist apprentice back in the late 80s before I got into computers. I'm quite familiar with metal working machines and found a metal lathe to be safer than a table saw. Don't touch the chips of course and always take off the chuck key. Other than that you use hand wheels and feed mechanisms to introduce the carbide to the steel.

We bought a large used horizontal mill and the guys feathering the ways were moving the table back onto the base when one of the chains broke! They had 3 chains on it and it just swung down on one side and then swung back and forth. Off hand I think the bed was 4 by 6 and the long axis was still chained. That was something to see!

Everything in a machine shop is dangerous, the big difference is in most cases you don't handle the piece by hand. You bolt it down and move the cutter to the piece or the piece to the cutter. We used edge detectors on the mills to find the exact edge, so the extents were accurately set. I really can't see comparing industrial metal working machines to hobbyist wood working machines.

We had a mill that was designed to cut propellers for large war ships. It hat a table 20' long, 10 feet of up down and 8 feet of spindle travel. The operator rode on the head on a 4' by 4' platform. Even had a chair on it. We used to mill steel ibeams for wind tunnels and large things like that.


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## unbob (Mar 10, 2013)

" I really can't see comparing industrial metal working machines to hobbyist wood working machines." 
Oops my bad, being used to the metal working machines, I buy and use industrial grade heavy weight woodworking machines. The box store dinky machines look dangerous just sitting there anyway…..
The small lathe I shown is deceptive, being small, one tends to hover over it. The machine can eject a part at 4000rpm or one can get tangled up in it, and pulled in.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> There will be other technologies, it s inevitable.
> Saw Stop s success is showing the other companies that there is a market for safety features such as these.
> 
> I do think it s funny though how people say that it was "offered" to the other companies and they declined.
> ...


Seat belts cost relatively little and impact every single person that rides in a car. Millions of people have had their life saved or injuries seriously reduced by seat belts. You can't redefine English, what you "describe" is giving it away.

I have read that the cost to include the sawstop mechanism as originally offered to the manufactures would add $200 dollars to the price of the saw and since 90% of the table saws sold for that price at that time it was a non-starter. 
Also, since introducing a new safe saw means you are admitting your previous saws weren't safe opens big cans of worms. No offence, but I would need some proof of what the cost was based on from your contacts or this is just hearsay.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> " I really can't see comparing industrial metal working machines to hobbyist wood working machines."
> Oops my bad, being used to the metal working machines, I buy and use industrial grade heavy weight woodworking machines. The box store dinky machines look dangerous just sitting there anyway…..
> The small lathe I shown is deceptive, being small, one tends to hover over it. The machine can eject a part at 4000rpm or one can get tangled up in it, and pulled in.
> 
> - unbob


I agree they can be dangerous, very dangerous. They are however usually operated by professionals and the practices you mentioned remind me of the people that don't use a guard and feed the wood with their hand in the center. Its like comparing a NASCAR driver to real race driver like F1…

From an argument point of view saying there are more dangerous things than a table saw doesn't really mean much.

I think the important thing here is they did try to sell it to other companies.


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## altendky (May 7, 2012)

<blockqoute>
I think the important thing here is they did try to sell it to other companies.

- RobS888
[/QUOTE]

And when the other companies declined, SawStop started law suits attempting to force the industry to license the technology and pay royalties on it. That's the part that bugs me.


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## HarveyDunn (Aug 29, 2013)

"I think the important thing here is they did try to sell it to other companies."

They tried every trick they could think of to FORCE other companies to license their patent. Not the same thing.


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## SirIrb (Jan 12, 2015)

I never get my hands closer than 1/4" to the blade. Im good.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> I think the important thing here is they did try to sell it to other companies.
> 
> - RobS888
> 
> ...


I thought they asked the consumer product safety department to mandate it. That isn't sneaky or underhanded and IIRC he sued for colluding against him. Something definitely sneaky and underhanded.

He came up with a better mouse trap, got the finger and eventually built a much better mouse trap.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> "I think the important thing here is they did try to sell it to other companies."
> 
> They tried every trick they could think of to FORCE other companies to license their patent. Not the same thing.
> 
> - HarveyDunn


Did they? What tricks?


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> I never get my hands closer than 1/4" to the blade. Im good.
> 
> - SirIrb


I never get my hands within 1/4" of the insert plate. I'm cautious.


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## AZWoody (Jan 18, 2015)

> Seat belts cost relatively little and impact every single person that rides in a car. Millions of people have had their life saved or injuries seriously reduced by seat belts. You can t redefine English, what you "describe" is giving it away.
> 
> I have read that the cost to include the sawstop mechanism as originally offered to the manufactures would add $200 dollars to the price of the saw and since 90% of the table saws sold for that price at that time it was a non-starter.
> Also, since introducing a new safe saw means you are admitting your previous saws weren t safe opens big cans of worms. No offence, but I would need some proof of what the cost was based on from your contacts or this is just hearsay.
> ...


That is why I said up to $1000. The cheapest I had heard was 500 or 700, I can't recall. What they were telling me was the price he was telling everybody publicly was very different from the price he was trying to get from the manufacturers.

I used the seat belt analogy because many people have tried to use the mandating of seat belts as a reason to justify saw stops trying to get the use of their technology mandated. 
Also, Volvo did give away their patent, did Stephen Gass?

http://jalopnik.com/volvo-gave-away-their-most-important-invention-to-save-1069825878

As per the English language, to offer something is to give, that's the primary definition.

Now, in the end, I actually am looking at a Saw Stop saw. It's between the saw or a sliding table saw. You could check my forum posts and see that I have been considering that but I still like to call a spade a spade.


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## sepeck (Jul 15, 2012)

I heard some stuff to, but all that is smoke and mirrors. Heard, 'read somewhere', had a claim.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SawStop

I went and tried to find some links that had FAQs rather then random stuff in the worst of lights. I was only able to find the Wikipedia article which is based on a % figure which is far more common in the manufacturing industry then a per unit cost.

There are a lot of people here who seem to have a vested interest in bashing this guy. Did he kick your puppies or something?


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## HarveyDunn (Aug 29, 2013)

Worse. He tried to get burdensome new regulations passed for his personal financial benefit.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> That is why I said up to $1000. The cheapest I had heard was 500 or 700, I can t recall. What they were telling me was the price he was telling everybody publicly was very different from the price he was trying to get from the manufacturers.
> 
> I used the seat belt analogy because many people have tried to use the mandating of seat belts as a reason to justify saw stops trying to get the use of their technology mandated.
> Also, Volvo did give away their patent, did Stephen Glass?
> ...


Offer
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Look up offer in Wiktionary, the free dictionary.

In business, an offer is a proposal to sell or buy a specific product or service under specific conditions:

a tender offer is an offer to buy company stock from existing stockholders under specific conditions
an offer price, or ask price, is the price a seller is willing to accept for a particular good
a special offer is a kind of sales promotion

In law:

Offer and acceptance, elements of a contract
Settlement offer, an offer to end a civil lawsuit out of court
Offer of judgment

I'm not doubting anything about Volvo and seat belts, just don't see it as a proper comparison.

I like my sawstop and I highly recommend it. Get the Sawstop then get their sliding table attachment, can't go wrong.

I still don't see anything that he did that was wrong or improper. Compare him to the company that won law suits against RIM, that is crazy stuff there.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Worse. He tried to get burdensome new regulations passed for his personal financial benefit.
> 
> - HarveyDunn


Yeah, no one else would have benefited?


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## AZWoody (Jan 18, 2015)

> I still don t see anything that he did that was wrong or improper. Compare him to the company that won law suits against RIM, that is crazy stuff there.
> 
> - RobS888


If he would have developed his own saw, after being turned down and accepted the rejection quietly, he would have not built any ill will with the woodworking community. It's his actively working with politicians to get his technology mandated on all saws that have turned him off to many people. That's the simplest way to sum it up.

I looked at the saw stop with the slider and it just didn't seem as robust as I would be using. It's not for panels so much as working on live edge slabs, squaring, straight lining, etc.
Also, someone mentioned they saw some flex on the attachment which I was able to replicate after looking at one in a store.

I still haven't ruled it out but it's looking more like a dedicated sliding table saw. Now, if saw stop made one of those I would be very interested.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> If he would have developed his own saw, after being turned down and accepted the rejection quietly, he would have not built any ill will with the woodworking community. *It s his actively working with politicians to get his technology mandated on all saws that have turned him off to many people.* That s the simplest way to sum it up.
> 
> I looked at the saw stop with the slider and it just didn t seem as robust as I would be using. It s not for panels so much as working on live edge slabs, squaring, straight lining, etc.
> Also, someone mentioned they saw some flex on the attachment which I was able to replicate after looking at one in a store.
> ...


http://www.fairwarning.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/XX2003Petition.pdf

It doesn't specifically require his approach, just one that could detect and react to flesh. Where is the working with politicians? Was there more that happened after this request? I don't see a there, there.

And really what if they had decided to follow it in whole or part, what is the downside?


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

> But PTI, Gass and CPSC have all acknowledged that any implementation of a device that met the conditions of the rule would result in lengthy litigation over the patent claims held by Gass.


http://www.popularwoodworking.com/article/cpsc-table-saw-rules-emotion-vs-numbers


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## AZWoody (Jan 18, 2015)

> Where is the working with politicians? Was there more that happened after this request? I don t see a there, there.
> 
> And really what if they had decided to follow it in whole or part, what is the downside?
> 
> - RobS888


http://articles.latimes.com/2012/jul/03/business/la-fi-sawstop-bill-20120703

http://blog.woodcraft.com/2012/09/tablesaw-safety-act-denied-in-california-senate/

I guess the political contributions were completely coincidental…


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## Deano56 (Feb 18, 2015)

to the one above who said promoting fear through marketing was not a valid point, anytime someone uses gross pictures of limbs being severed to market their product even to the government, is purely a scare tactic. Was there any discussion of how these injuries happened, such as the person having a hangover from the night before, marital problems, lack of sleep the night before, etc.. I knew a guy that made raised panel door for me, (best around too), he had at least three part of digits missing from very unsafe practices with a jointer and a shaper. Jointing a small piece of wood his thumb dropped dropped down into the cutter, the other fingers got chewed up shaping a 2" square block for the corner of the center panel of the door. This was done free hand by on a shaper, no jig or anything, just his fingers that close to something spinning several thousand rpms . I know of another man that had his arm cut off on a Whirlwind up cutoff saw because he reached thru the area where the blade comes up and accidently hit the cut button. Since then the saw (if still around) company made it so you have to have both hands push on the buttons to activate the saw. Safety features are fine but I still think it not freedom to mandate everything and then someone else has to pay the extra cost.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> But PTI, Gass and CPSC have all acknowledged that any implementation of a device that met the conditions of the rule would result in lengthy litigation over the patent claims held by Gass.
> 
> http://www.popularwoodworking.com/article/cpsc-table-saw-rules-emotion-vs-numbers
> 
> - MrUnix


Did they have to follow his suggestion to the letter? I doubt it, they could have made any kind of regulation they wanted.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Where is the working with politicians? Was there more that happened after this request? I don t see a there, there.
> 
> And really what if they had decided to follow it in whole or part, what is the downside?
> 
> ...


I guess he should have done it differently, because if he worked with them he didn't get his money worth.

I thought you would have stuff like how laws are directly written by the lobbyists or some kind of smoking gun.

I see nothing wrong with advocating what you think is necessary. My asking for a raise doesn't mean I'm colluding with my boss.

What is wrong with this country when a guy that owns a company and has 2 doctorates can't buy the laws he wants?


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## AZWoody (Jan 18, 2015)

> I guess he should have done it differently, because if he worked with them he didn t get his money worth.
> 
> I thought you would have stuff like how laws are directly written by the lobbyists or some kind of smoking gun.
> 
> ...


It really is starting to sound like you have a vested interest in Saw Stop.

What I have to go on are the articles written. I'm not a political insider nor do I claim to be. 
If someone from out of state is donating to politicians that aren't in the state he resides in, then there has to be a reason other than the good of his heart.

The saw works great and is in the upper class of machinery. If I were to buy it, it still wouldn't make me a cheerleader of the company or it's tactics to make me feel better about what I have purchased.


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## bbasiaga (Dec 8, 2012)

We've got legally mandated seatbelts (which in the volvo example were already in a lot of cars, just in a less effective form - not a brand new state of the art), legally mandated auto insurance, legally mandated health insurance, legally mandated safety features on cars which have driven the cost up by $1000s over the last 5-10yrs, legally mandated features on your water heater, legally mandated safety features on your furnace, legally mandated EVERYTHING….all of these things done by politicians who were financed/'worked with' by guys in the respective industries who stood to profit from it, AND DID.

But this one guy and his table saw are the devil incarnate?

This is the system. "Don't hate the player, hate the game." Apple is suing everybody in every country they do business, trying to get them to have to pay a royalty if they use any kind of touch screen interface on their phone, claiming it is Apple's invention and they are owed (just like people suspect sawstop will sue bosch over their new technology). Who here has an iPhone?

-Brian


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## AZWoody (Jan 18, 2015)

> We ve got legally mandated seatbelts (which in the volvo example were already in a lot of cars, just in a less effective form - not a brand new state of the art), legally mandated auto insurance, legally mandated health insurance, legally mandated safety features on cars which have driven the cost up by $1000s over the last 5-10yrs, legally mandated features on your water heater, legally mandated safety features on your furnace, legally mandated EVERYTHING….all of these things done by politicians who were financed/ worked with by guys in the respective industries who stood to profit from it, AND DID.
> 
> But this one guy and his table saw are the devil incarnate?
> 
> ...


Except those legal mandates aren't by the manufacturer of said safety system. They are from other people such as insurance companies, etc that stand to profit. Now, if Volvo, as I mentioned earlier held on to their patent and then tried to have them mandated, then that's a relevant comparison.

Also, who said everyone is ok with all the other mandates? Mandates and regulation for safety is one thing, regulation for the sake of profit is something entirely different.

And I don't have an iphone btw. I'm not fond of everything being proprietary with them.


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## cabmaker (Sep 16, 2010)

I never get my hands closer than 1/4" to the blade. Im good.

Hahahaha!! Love it ! jB


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## sepeck (Jul 15, 2012)

> I guess he should have done it differently, because if he worked with them he didn t get his money worth.
> 
> I thought you would have stuff like how laws are directly written by the lobbyists or some kind of smoking gun.
> 
> ...


(emphasis added)
I guess if you run out of arguments to convince people, you just personally attack those who disagree with you?


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> It really is starting to sound like you have a vested interest in Saw Stop.
> 
> What I have to go on are the articles written. I m not a political insider nor do I claim to be.
> If someone from out of state is donating to politicians that aren t in the state he resides in, then there has to be a reason other than the good of his heart.
> ...


Really, I can't just see it differently than you?


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Except those legal mandates aren t by the manufacturer of said safety system. They are from other people such as insurance companies, etc that stand to profit. Now, if Volvo, as I mentioned earlier held on to their patent and then tried to have them mandated, then that s a relevant comparison.
> 
> Also, who said everyone is ok with all the other mandates? Mandates and regulation for safety is one thing, regulation for the sake of profit is something entirely different.
> 
> ...


Many companies band together and get a lobbyist for the industry, so it doesn't look as bad as it really is. Very few lobbyist are working for altruistic organizations. GE lobbies, hard and doesn't pay any taxes. They spent almost 17 million last year on lobbying and paid almost no taxes. That should bother you guys. Or Mitt RMoney lobbying to reduce capital gains taxes. That is ok? Seriously if you don't like how they "operate" fine it is your loss.


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## AZWoody (Jan 18, 2015)

> Many companies band together and get a lobbyist for the industry, so it doesn t look as bad as it really is. Very few lobbyist are working for altruistic organizations. GE lobbies, hard and doesn t pay any taxes. They spent almost 17 million last year on lobbying and paid almost no taxes. That should bother you guys. Or Mitt RMoney lobbying to reduce capital gains taxes. That is ok? Seriously if you don t like how they "operate" fine it is your loss.
> 
> - RobS888


Actually, what I said is not contradictory to what you said. There is a difference than mandates for safety vs a money grab. 
I didn't attack you personally as another said and we do see things differently. I even said that I was summing up the ill will that some people feel towards Saw Stop. You may like the mandated regulation for safety devices, others do now.
As for the person who didn't like the "vested interested" comment, it does feel that people think they have some kind of attachment to things they have and hope they do well. Go read a movie forum someday and there are cheerleaders for a movie to make X billion dollars and others root against them because they prefer a different movie franchise instead. In the end, what's the point? People sometimes will root for something as if they have a "vested interest" in it, as if they have something to win or lose in it.

Ultimately, this has steered way off topic of the original poster. In the end, Saw Stop will have competition.
Bosch already is going to introduce a technology which I actually think is a little more practical, in that it's not a one time and destroyed system. It will be interesting to see what else will get in there.

I also think the success of Saw Stop as a producer of saw tables has already got the other manufacturers working on new ways to make not just table saws safer but how to implement these technologies to other tools as well.


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## jklingel (Mar 26, 2015)

Well, men, as the OP, do I have the right, or obligation, to terminate this discussion? It is getting a little bit off-topic, IMHO, so why don't we just call it a day and move along? Thanks again for all the info on the deal, whether you like the (*&^%$#@^&*(^^% who invented it or not! : ) cheers. j


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

I didn't see this saw mentioned in regards to your question.

http://www.boschtools.com/Products/Tools/Pages/BoschProductDetail.aspx?pid=GTS1041A-09


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## jklingel (Mar 26, 2015)

It was buried in there somewhere, and I wish they made a larger-tabled model. I like their idea of dropping the blade and letting it spin down instead of grabbing, and ruining, it as the SawStop does. Thanks for mentioning it.


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## BikerDad (Jul 16, 2008)

> Also, if the safety was the utmost concern, then Saw Stop could do what Volvo did when they had the patent for the 3 point seat belt. Give the patent away for free for the greater good and safety of the public.
> 
> -AZWoody


Volvo's patent was indefensible, as it was based on prior work. Second, Volvo could easily make lots of marketing hay off "giving" the patent away, and use their "generous dedication to safety" to help sell *more of the cars that they were already making.* Giving SawStop's technology away would have netted the people who invested their own time and money into developing the tech NOTHING.

Do you work for free?


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## BikerDad (Jul 16, 2008)

> It was buried in there somewhere, and I wish they made a larger-tabled model. I like their idea of dropping the blade and letting it spin down instead of grabbing, and ruining, it as the SawStop does. Thanks for mentioning it.
> 
> - jklingel


They don't let it spin down. They drop it, and then apply a pinch brake on the sides rather than burying the blade in a brake block. It is a more elegant solution. Given the differences in technical capacities and engineering resources between Bosch and SawStop, as well as the 10+ years of technological advancements since SawStop developed their tech, one would expect nothing less. How different are the resources? Bosch spends more on R&D annually than the sales of the entire woodworking machinery industry in the US, and those sales have fallen by 40% since 2008.


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

Just go ahead and drink robs koolaid. It'll be easier that way.


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## jklingel (Mar 26, 2015)

"Bosch spends more on R&D annually than the sales of the entire woodworking machinery industry in the US…" OK, but does Bosch have any serious MONEY?


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## intelligen (Dec 28, 2009)

It's really annoying that every thread that mentions SawStop devolves into a political debate and someone always brings up the stupid seatbelt analogy. The most recent lawsuit was dismissed last year and the proposed mandate never passed. Get over it and just answer the original question:



> Does anyone know if SawStop, Bosch, or anyone else has any plans to add blade-stopping capability to other brands of table saws?


SawStop: no
Bosch: no
Whirlwind: The designer has a partially competed business plan and has tested retrofitting a few engineering prototypes on three different saws, but as of April 2015 he has no backers interested in completing development of the technology and bringing a product to market. You can bet if someone did pick up his technology and run with it, it would take at least a few years before anyone would sell it commercially, even if they could navigate their way around all the potential liability hurdles.

So, for all intents and purposes, the answer is no. Nobody has, or will have, an aftermarket retrofittable active safety device for a table saw anytime in the foreseeable future.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Just go ahead and drink robs koolaid. It ll be easier that way.
> 
> - TheFridge


Pretty offensive statement! Referencing people that drank koolaid they knew was poisoned. We are talking about a saw, not the end of days.


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