# Groz JP-5 initial impressions.



## docholladay

If you are willing to invest the time in fettling a lower end plane. I suggest taking a look at the Anant line of planes that Highland Woodworking (www.highlandwoodworking.com) carries. Anant makes 2 lines of planes. The lower end line is much like the Groz planes. The Anant Kamal planes are the higher quality planes. These are really quite good, but still at a very reasonable cost.

I have looked at the Groz planes and the main drawback I have seen is that the irons are pretty thin. Of course the same could also be said of most any Stanley "Bailey" planes manufactured in the last 25 years or so (the newest Stanley Sweetheart planes actually have a very thick iron). I will give the Wood River planes an edge in that category also. The iron on the Wood River planes would rival most any high end plane in thickness. They are almost as thick and heavy as a Hock iron.

Anyway, after all of that dissertation, for my money, if I am going to spend a few hours fettling a plane to make it work properly, I would still prefer to spend my time refurbing a 100 year old Stanley or Millers Falls plane. There is just something I love about taking an old neglected tool and make it useful again. Also, if you look closely at flea markets and antique shops, sometimes you get lucky and find a bargain. I have bought planes for less than $10 before that I took home, cleaned up and tuned them up and then sold on ebay for $50.


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## chrisstef

I just picked up a #5 Groz as well, being kind of a newbie ifigured that for $30 off CL i couldn't gp wrong. This thing was brand new, never touched a piece of wood, and still had the packing grease all over it. Took it home and realized that the sole did need some lapping and the blade, like you say, couldn't cut butter. So after a few hours tuning it up i took it to a piece of 100 year old rough sawn oak, First pass .. no chatter and fine shavings! IMHO a great starter plane that can be certainly upgraded with a new iron and chip breaker. Put a little sweat into it and im definately pleased.


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## QuangFromCalgary

I bought a Groz #4 3 years ago without knowing anything about planes, it was on sale dirt cheap. Last year I started learning how to use plane. I did a lot of reading and learning that what I had was the one lots of people try to avoid. Well, I learned how to tuning this Groz plane up. It worked ok with the stock blade. But later on I bought a hock blade and chip breaker. Put them in the Groz, it works like a dream. 
That was a part of learning, and I found that the Groz plan is not too bad to make it works. Of course it is not in the class of LV or LN, but it shaves as thin as others do if you learn how to tune it.


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## jbertelson

*David*
I am always amazed to see some of my old, but not anywhere near the top-of-line tools holding up for decades. Sunday I used my 30+ year old Skil circular saw again. Seemed to work the same as always. I looked at that saw closely when I used it….....7 1/4 inch Model 559, ball bearing, 10 amp, 2 hp, Commercial Duty was the label. This may seem strange, but I remember looking at that saw on the shelf in the small local hardware store in North Pole owned by a friend, and then buying it. He passed away many years ago. Just keeps humming along.

....... I am continually amazed to see you take either an old or lower price tool and make it something special.

Seems that the basic integrity is there for many tools, but they may need some adjusting occasionally, or even upgrading of parts (like sharpening the blade on a plane, or putting in a high quality carbide tipped blade on the old circular saw). In fact, I think that circular saw is just about due for a new blade. The old one still cuts, but it is getting dirty, and more importantly, I think there are better blades out there now. I remember replacing all the blades in the shop with high quality carbide ones, just purchased locally, probably 15 or 20 years ago. Suddenly everything worked better.

There are some limits to the cheaper tools, like the motor on your DC that can't be converted to 240V, but on a limited budget, with some knowledge and ingenuity, you can get a fine set of tools that fit your needs.

I am just restating something you have made a premise in your shop, and demonstrated over and over again…..guess I am just tooting your own horn for you…........(-:

Keep it up…...you continue to demonstrate, especially to young hobbyists, that you don't need to have a large budget, or the the most expensive tools. Just choose wisely, and with a little time, knowledge, and work you will have a capable shop.


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## skywalker01

Let me know when you return it .


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## boboswin

If the geometry is correct you have the makings of a fine tool.
I suggest you swap out the original blade for a Lie Niesen , Lee Valley or Hock.
They really make the difference in your ability to get a consitent smooth cut.
l


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## dbhost

Luke,

Not likely to happen. I have been quite pleased with my #4, and really see no reason to think the #5 won't be up to par in the months / years to come… I called it though. "I know a LOT of guys out there wouldn't even consider one of these". Responses here prove it…

It's funny where some folks are willing to put their $$.... I don't think I will ever understand woodworkers that are allergic to a little bit of tuning work on their tools…


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## Sean

Not allergic to it….just don't want to do it. Kind of offended that I would have to. "here's your plane, enjoy…it doesn't work right, but you can fix it." I wouldnt accept that from any other product that I would buy new, be it a TV, a car, a lamp, a picture frame, whatever. Why would I accept it in a tool?

Now, I do enjoy finding old planes and fettling them, and here in town there are several antique shops that have tools in them…have managed to pick up a 5, 5.5, a few transitional planes, and a 7…all of which needed cleaning and tuning, and none of which i spent more than 45$ on…unless you count time spent as money. But I am happy to do that, it's nice to own and use a tool thats been in use for almost a century.
But as far as buying something new and fixing it? I won't do it…but thats a personal thing. I bought a miter guage from woodcraft a year ago, it wasn't the demonstrated product and couldnt work like the demonstrated product…when I called Jessem and wanted the right product, they started giving me instruction on adding a piece of mdf here, or switching out some bolts there….I told them to get bent, took it back and got an osborne, which worked correctly out of the box….something that, amusing tho it may be, I expect. I don't think that makes me lazy, or a tool snob…I just feel a bit put out by the 'hey [email protected]#$ you, you'll buy this as long as we make it cheap, why should we make it right' attitude that takes over so much of our industries.

It doesn't matter. whats important is that you are happy with it. If you like it and you enjoy tuning it up to make it work just how you want it, great. But don't make the insinuation that it makes me stupid or lazy for not taking up the 'deal'. It's like telling someone they are silly for buying a BMW when they could've just bought a Ford.


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## dbhost

Sean,

It was suggested by several others that I simply not respond to your post as it appeared to them to be simple troll bait.

Aside from Luke's very short response, I do not think anyone here is saying these planes are broken out of the box. The ONLY Issue I have with this plane I have with the in store Wood River, and the few remaining Lie Nielsen planes as well. The irons are not sharpened when they come to you. Those nice high end Hock irons aren't pre-honed either.

Now mind you, manufacturers specifications call for the sole of the plane to be within .003 of flat, which is fine for many folks. Mine was as far as I could measure totally flat all the way across toe to heel. Is a Veritas any flatter than dead flat?

I hone my plane irons for a lot of the same reasons I do my own home repairs, and my own woodworking. I want it done right. Yes Woodcraft does offer a sharpening service. I've had enough experience with them to not expect anything from them.

I'm also not sure where you get the insinuation that not wanting to tune your tools makes you lazy or stupid. But if you want to feel that way, be my guest. It's not what I meant in the slightest, but I won't interfere with your freedom of choice.

My comment about not understanding woodworkers that are allergic to a little bit of tuning work on their tools is based on the fact that sooner or later, that iron is going to have to come back out of that Lie Nielsen, or that Veritas plane, and some tuning is in order. I see MANY woodworkers that tout the high end planes on the sole virtue that they didn't have to lap the sole or spend the time honing the iron (although the high end planes I have seen have irons as dull as my Groz). After some use, all hand planes, just like all automobiles are going to require tuning. So you see my comment is an honest one about not understanding. It seems a little silly to me to try to avoid the inevitable. Postponing however I do understand. But this isn't a life or death thing…

If you have the money, and the high end planes make you happy, there is nothing wrong with spending the bucks. And there is certainly something worth while about the idea of supporting the home team. If I had the bucks, I would own a nice chunk of the Lie Nielsen catalog contents.

If you read my review with the idea that I am saying all cheap tools are good, and all high end tools are a waste of time and money then you are not reading what I have written in context. What I AM saying is that for a guy (or gal) on a budget, that is looking for function within a lower budget range, there are some good options to be had.

By the way, it IS silly to buy a BMW versus a Ford if that BMW is a 3 series, and you need a full size pickup to tow your 30 foot travel trailer. A BMW 3 series I do not believe has much of a towing capacity., and would probably be lucky to be able to tow a teardrop trailer….


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## boboswin

In a busy train station I asked if anyone had the correct time.
One fellow was wearing a Timex and the other a Rolex.
They both replied 3:00 PM.
Don't be too hard on each other.


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## SST

Thanks for the great review. This subject always seems to bring out lots of diverse opinions, and that's a good thing, as there's something for everybody. Me, I prefer the old Stanley's that I've restored. They were very reasonable to buy & I love putzing with them as well. I haven't yet replaced any of the original blades with a thicker one because I really can't imagine them working any better than they already do, and I'm cheap, so why spend the extra $$$?
Because of their low price,the Groz planes have, I must admit, tempted me. But so far I've been able to resist. I actually have more than enough planes anyway. -SST


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## dbhost

Bob #2, I LOVE your analogy!

Oh I'm on the prowl for decent antique Stanley / Bailey, Millers Falls etc… planes. And if somebody wants to sell me an LN or Veritas #7 for what I am wanting to pay for a second hand antique or a groz then I will snap it up….


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## skywalker01

I bought a buck bros smoother from depot. I spent a lot of time tuning it up and got it taking a pretty nice shaving. I was only partially happy cause I'd never used a smoother and didn't know how to feel. I bought my father in law a wood river smoother and tried it right out of the box. Wow…. I can only imagine what a LN smoother would do. Granted a smoother may be more important than a jack or leveling plane but I still think the quality of the cut would and should be an issue. No offense on my earlier comment but it still stands. Try a LN with a sharp blade and then let me know when you take the Groz back  Not that it will help you much towards the cost of a LN. hehe

BTW I own a LN Adj. mouth block plane and it is Amazing…


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## Sean

It's not troll bait. I wasn't rude, or looking to pick a fight. you made several comments that seemed to make a clear tone that you think people who don't want to put in the extra effort of converting their low-end tool are foolish, and probably shouldn't be woodworking. I'm one of those people, and I don't feel foolish for expecting whatever I buy to perform. If you didn't mean to imply that, then my mistake for taking it that way…the internet can do that, things spoken seem harsh when written.
It's funny where some folks are willing to put their $$.... I don't think I will ever understand woodworkers that are allergic to a little bit of tuning work on their tools…

I am smart enough to know I will likely have to lap the sole and hone the iron. The guys that figure they don't need to do this, and are shocked that a cheap plane doesn't cut great out of the box probably don't need to be handling tools in the first place….

That being said, I will respect your opinion of your plane, and agree with your point that at that price you have to expect to fettle it.


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## Sean

btw, if you are on the prowl for a decent antique, i would go the route of looking at antique shops or auctions…not ebay auctions…I've got the shaft on that end twice now, buying something that turned out to be a frankenplane. I'm happier if I can pick it up and take it apart before buying. I went to a tool auction here in indy with 200$ last month. If I had taken 500$ I could have walked away with quite a collection…i think the prices at a regular auction are better than what you get on ebay.


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## dbhost

Okay so say for example a guy on a budget. Let's say he wanted to stay under $150.00 for a completed #7. How would he go about looking for such a beast, and what should he be looking for? (Ulterior motive, my next plane I want is a #7 for doing long, wide stuff…)

Generally speaking, I figure part of that cost should be budgeted for a new Hock blade…


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## a1Jim

Congrats


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## dbhost

Luke,

Not many high end planes interest me, mostly because, well, I just can't seem to justify the expense…

And I have used an LN smoother. It sure does have more heft than my Groz #4, but I wouldn't say I think it cuts better… Now having said that…

The same friend that let me try his smoother, let me try his LN low angle block plane. And my Groz block cuts real nice… But that LN cuts like a laser through warm butter…

I have a thread on another forum open on a similar subject. From the other reviews I have seen, I think either I am the luckiest guy alive when it comes to Groz planes, OR Groz has come an awful long way in quality control in the last 4 years… MANY of the reviews on these planes are from 2006, and almost universally they are stated to be utter junk. But almost all of the newer reviews are favorable, to raving… (With one poor soul that got the Groz #4 / Block plane kit from Woodcraft that was a complete dud…).


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## dbhost

FWIW, I spent about a half hour doing a total tune up on this plane. And all I have to say about it is, with a tiny bit of attention paid to honing the iron, and just otherwise verifying things, this has all the hallmarks of a great plane.

I spent a very brief time on the sole of the plane just to verify. I started at 120, then 220, finally 320. Nice, flat sole, no problems.

The frog went across the 80, 120, then 220. Not going as fine as 320 on it…

The chip breaker didn't need any attention whatsoever, so no worries there.

The blade / iron however, well it hones well, but is awfully thin (no surprises there I would hope…)

Once everything was lapped, honed, verified etc… I set the blade depth for as thin as it would go, and took a couple of swipes across some fairly twisty figured 6/4 pecan scrap I have in the shop. Rice paper thin full width shavings, and easy clean strokes with the plane.

Now I am sure there are better planes out there. But let's have an honest comparison of comparable price point tools. Is this a Lie Nielsen, or Veritas? No. And I don't expect it to have the resale value, or collector interest either of those will have when my heirs go to sell or use their inheritance.

When you consider the Stanley non-sweetheart #4 is sold at Lowes for $45.00, the Buck Bros #4 for $39.50 at Home Depot. Comparing the Groz planes to either of these more expensive units is a SERIOUS insult to the Groz.

As I have mentioned above, either I am the luckiest guy alive when it comes to Groz planes, or they have SERIOUSLY improved their quality control and manufacturing over the last 4 years or so… Either way, I am happy with my planes, and do not regret their purchase for a second…


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## AjayO

I bought two Groz planes, #4 and low angle block plane few years back. I was under no illusion that it will take some work to get them to be useful. Like many, I could not justify big bucks for high end planes for what I intend to use them. I am sure to some the extra edge is worth the money, I just try to stretch my hobby money as much as I can. On my Groz plane I had to spend quite a bit of time getting the sole and sides to adequate flatness and it still could use some more work. I too have noticed that their quality has improved recently. I am making my plane collection and recently picked up some used Stanley bailey #5 and #7 as well as 60-1/2 block plane that I am restoring. Given Groz quality improvement, I won't hesitate to buy them to fill the gaps in my collection. I have not used planes enough to make a judgment on thick vs thin blades yet.


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## Sean

http://www.roseantiquetools.com/store/page60.html

you could also look on www.sydnassloot.com or go ebay, if theres no places in your area.

By the fact that you know how to fettle your planes, you already know what to look for…if you havent shopped around for used antique tools, you want to make sure you are dealing with someone with a good reputation…both the places i mention above have it…you want to make sure the tools have all the complete correct pieces, and you arent getting a frankenplane, which you run into a lot on ebay. a little rust is fine, if its pitted, avoid it. avoid cracked beds, make sure you check the mouth out and make sure no one has filed it open too far. Most places will mention that if it has been done…except on ebay, again. You can get good deals if you are willing to put up a little work, i got a 607 off a dealer, had no front knob and no iron for less than 60$....im not going to go shopping for the pieces, i made the knob andbought a hock iron….which means resale value isnt great, but i want a user not a collector. there are several good blogs on the web about restoring old planes to new, its almost therapeutic.


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## TwoThumbs

Hmm, I have ZERO + 1 experience with planes. Last week I picked up a Stanley (not sure what model exactly yet) but appears from what I can find on the net that it is dated somewhere between the late 1930's and early 50's. And just today I picked up a Groz JP-5. I bought them because… well, I can't afford those "special" ones for all you "special" people!  The Groz appears to have been lightly used but not much and even still had it's box. I'd never heard the name before but I got the darn thing for $7! And I got the Stanley in a bundle deal with two bench mounted vises for $40. Since I didn't have any of either I felt like I was screwin' the guy and not even havin' to kiss him! Do I know how to "fettle" them. Nope. In fact, I'd never heard the word "fettle" until I read this post! LOL So I guess that puts me pretty much in the field of what dbhost had to say. But in IMO I think buying these "cheap" planes will certainly give me a challenge that will teach me something useful, like, uhm, how to "fettle" them. If I had robbed a bank and could then afford one of those high dollar ones I'd probably only learn, at least until I wear down the blade in a few attempts at using them because I'm sure I don't know the "proper" way to do that either, how to dull a blade! LOL I came here to find out more about the plane and if I got a good, bad, great or mediocre deal on the planes I'm going to "LEARN" with. And in hopes of learning about how to "fettle" them properly and then put them to use. I didn't get a lot of that information but I did learn something… woodworkers are definitely a diverse and odd bunch that can get their feelings hurt easier than a 4 year old who just dropped their lollipop in the dirt and the dog grabbed it and ate it! LOL


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