# Jobs in America



## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

John Smith started the day early having set his alarm clock

(MADE IN JAPAN )

for 6 am.

While his coffeepot

(MADE IN CHINA)

was perking, he shaved with his

electric razor

(MADE IN HONG KONG)

He put on a

dress shirt

(MADE IN SRI LANKA),

designer jeans

(MADE IN SINGAPORE)

and

tennis shoes

(MADE IN KOREA)

After cooking his breakfast in his new

electric skillet

(MADE IN INDIA)

he sat down with his

calculator

(MADE IN MEXICO)

to see how much he could spend today. After setting his

watch

(MADE IN TAIWAN )

to the radio

(MADE IN INDIA )

he got in his car

(MADE IN GERMANY )

filled it with GAS

(from Saudi Arabia )

and continued his search

for a good paying AMERICAN JOB.

At the end of yet anotherdiscouraging

and fruitless day

checking his

Computer

(made in MALAYSIA ),

John decided to relax for a while.

He put on his sandals

(MADE IN BRAZIL),

poured himself a glass of

wine

(MADE IN FRANCE)

and turned on his

TV

(MADE IN INDONESIA),

and then wondered why he can't

find a good paying job

in AMERICA

AND NOW HE'S HOPING HE CAN GET HELP FROM A PRESIDENT

MADE IN KENYA.

I heard on the radio yesterday that 55,000 are running out of unemployment benefits every day. No one knows how many are out totally that have not found a job. Nobody counts that and they are no longer officially unemployed. In April, we created 271,000 new jobs. It takes 250,000 to keep up with population growth. I think July's rate was 41,000.


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## sammouri (Dec 12, 2009)

Only yesterday, I saw a teenager behind the wheel of a fantasy V8 with shiny magwheels and double silver noisy silencer and huge loud speekers. On the back wind screen, he wrote "SPONSORED BY CENTRELINK"


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Wonder if I can get sponsored now that jobs are dead? I have been telling people employment is dead in America for the last 25 years. I find it hard to believe I'm the only one who couold see this coming:-(


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## Gene01 (Jan 5, 2009)

Denial….pretend it's not happening….vote for change.

Yep!


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## canadianchips (Mar 12, 2010)

You forgot watching the comedy channel 
"Comedians from Canada" 
Sports channel
"Hockey Night in Canada"


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

The other day I was in Lowes in the plywood section and I heard someone asking where the 3/8 drywall was. The clerk said we're out and that it would be January before they had anymore. That came from Chile and no shipping because of the earth quakes. They had two sheets of my plywood and didn't know when more was coming in - I can't remember where he said that was coming from. I'm using some cabinet grade birch plywood on a project in the shop and I had to remove a made in China sticker from one of the faces. I have always been told that to create wealth you had to mine it, grow it, or manufacture it. Well, the regulations on mining are getting so stringent that we are relying more and more on foreign mines; and I think everyone is beginning to notice haw much foreign food is coming into the country; and I know that everyone knows how our manufacturing is decreasing. We're becoming a service economy. We can't all make a living in this country by shuffeling paper, flipping Big Macks, washing each others dirty laundry, or cutting each others grass. The laws of economics will work all of this out but we may not like how the story ends.


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## patron (Apr 2, 2009)

evidently ,
so long as the rich get richer ,

everything is fine !

it wasn't the rice farmers in china that did this ,

it was greedy american business men ,

that moves their factory's there !


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## 489tad (Feb 26, 2010)

Don't blame the American business men too much. Americans are not willing to pay for American labor. Its getting harder to find all the items on the list that are still made in American but I'm sure if you wanted to pay for it you can find someone to build it or sew it. A few months ago I purchased a set of Lie Nielsen chisels. I could have purchased from over sea's but I made the choise to buy American and paid for it.

Lets not open the can of worms that is our government regulations that prevent American companies from doing business.

Dan


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## TulsaWoodSmith (Mar 17, 2009)

Well, the unions have done their bit too--$26 per hour for floor sweepers who can't be fired! I'd move my factory too!

Michael


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Actually what did it was OPEC and the oil spike in the 70s along with US free trade policies. We are the only country in the world that has suicidal open trade to all others. Forget the BS you hear on propaganda radio and the corp owned media. REad the facts about economics and trade by somebody like Ravi Batra, SMU economics professor. Greenspan said part of his job was maintaining a certain level of uneasiness in the labor market to keep people from asking for higher wages. He did it a little too well. Wages in the US are down 40% adjusted for inflation in the last 30 years. Actually, government jobs are the only ones that have even come close to keeping up. Another thing the stupid old fool, Greenspan, said was derivatives didn't need regulation because responsible people run the markets. These are the same responsible people who were bailed out with 700 billion of tax payer dollars. They wrote themselves billions in bonuses after bankrupting themselves, making us pay the bill and being smart enough to get away with it. On top of that they package securities to sell to pension funds , then make big bets in the markets against those securities packages profiting billions while the pensions loose your retirement. Most of you would do well to get a few facts and reform your opinions.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Just read the layoffs minus hirinig left the US with a net loss of 131,000 in July. Add the 250,000 we need for population growth and we are only 381,000 short last month :-(( Hope none of them were LJs!!


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

BTW, at the last town meetinig my congressman, Adam Smith held in June he told me he had talked to employeers that cannot fill $10- 12 / per hour jobs. I talked to him breifly about it; he seemed surprised that those were not living wage jobs. Of course, he has never done anything but be a politician. I don't know what they were doing, he didn't say. If were out of work, I would probably take one of them if it didn't cost more to get to work, supply my tools ect than I made after taxes. If my costs left me in the hole, I would tell ….................


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## Eagle1 (Jan 4, 2010)

Unions have there good parts and there bad parts. But so has company's that are not unionized. Before the unions in the auto industry. It was like slave labor. The people on the line couldn't even get a restroom break, causing them to pee in there pants. Back then safety wasn't used either. People died right and left. You can also look at the retail industry. Not wanting to mention there company name but its hard not to. Walmart is one of the biggest abusers also. They will ask some of there employes after they have timed out to straighten up something and then not pay them. They told there employes that if they tried to bring in the union into there stores they would close the doors to that store. That really did happen to a store up near the Canada border. I also believe that a part of the problem is that I have seen in the auto factories and I'm sure it happens else where, is that some of the workers get away with working the system. Then they get there kids working there also and they have learned to work the system from there parents. It gets handed down. I do admit that part of the problem is the unions. They get people off for something that they did, that they should have been fired for. So other people see that and think they can get away with it to. They try it and do get away with it, and it spreads.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

TopMaxSurvivor, I'll say one thing about it for sure. No country has taken up the use of fiat currency without it's value dwindling away to nothing. If we use the 1913 American dollar as a measure it is now worth only 4% of what it was in 1913 - probably even less considering the growth in the money supply over the last few years. And I would certainly agree that "free trade" is not free. We always end up on the short end of the stick.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

helluvawreck,
You are talking about inflation. Company greed drives prices of goods ever higher and higher. That in turn drives the cost of labor higher because the workers are also trying to improve their lot in life. This is what drives all economies. Comparing the cost of anything to what it was in 1913 is pretty much irrelevant, since inflation rates ebb and flow at different rates over time. This can, however, give us an "average rate of inflation" that can be useful in telling use when things are getting out of hand (compare the last few years to this year or the next).

FYI, inflation has been rather tame over the past couple of years. Maybe that is something that could be blamed on Obama. I'm sure the unemployed (those looking for American jobs) would prefer to pay ever inflating prices for goods and services. LOL

FWIW, Obama is considering taxing(penalty tax) those companies/corporations that off-shore jobs out of the USA. This should have been done earlier but under Bush/GOP it was prohibited.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

With all due respect, IMHO we have not had much inflation in the last two years because the banks are not loaning the way they normally do. Much of the money is being pent up and is not moving in the economy the way it normally does. When money is loaned out the banking system as a whole actually creates much of the money in circulation out of thin air because of what is known as fractional reserve banking. When the banks begin to loan again then you will see some heavy inflation unless the FED begins to destroy much of the money that it has created in the last couple of years.

In the words of the FED itself you can find out how it works strait from the horse's mouth here:

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Modern_Money_Mechanics/Bank_Deposits%E2%80%94How_They_Expand_or_Contract#How_the_Multiple_Expansion_Process_Works

This was written by the Chicago Federal Reserve Bank to explain how our money system works. The link to the whole article is here:

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Modern_Money_Mechanics

In simple everyday terms you can also read The Mystery of Banking by Murray N. Rothbard. There are other books as well.

For most of the first 130 years of our country's history the inflation rate was relatively constant when looked at overall. Essentially gold was pegged to the dollar and the dollar could be fully redeemed in gold. When the FED was created in 1913 our money was taken partially off of the gold standard. Around 1971-1973 Nixon took our money completely off of the gold standard. If you look at all of the financial charts you can see how inflation began to take off. When Nixon took it completely off of the gold standard inflation really took off.

Money is simply a medium of exchange and should hold real value. In essence if I want to buy a dollars worth of flower I give you money that is worth a dollar. The dollar holds real value. That's the way it should work. When gold is used as money or at least backs it up then all is well. Gold has remarkably held it's value very well over thousands of years. However, when we start using fiat currency and fractional reserve banking then money is slowly devalued. The true way to look at inflation is that we have more and more money in the system and the money is worth less - it is constantly being devalued. Therefore, in simplified terms, a dollar may just buy 97 cents worth of flower next year. A bag of flower was a bag of flower last year and will be a bag of flower this year and in human terms is no more valuable to me last year than this year (assuming we don't have a flower shortage). However, the money that I used to purchase it with last year was worth more than the dollar that I use to purchase it with today. This is how inflation actually works.

BTW, I really don't want to get in any sort of deep discussion over this because this is the Lumberjocks website and it is probably not a good idea to dwell on these sorts of things less we disrupt the friendly nature of this group. I respect your opinion but I have my own opinion about what causes inflation and it is based on my on research about the subject. I simply do not trust fiat currency.

WOW! Mike, I just went to your home page and looked at your shop. You have a really nice shop and a whole lot of good equipment. How do you keep it so neat? I've been working on my own shop all weekend. I'm putting in a couple of new work tables that I built. They are going to give me some badly needed workspace. I just came inside for a moment to enjoy the air and cool off but I'm heading back out to the shop. Take care.


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## Jim Jakosh (Nov 24, 2009)

But you can eat your soft boiled egg out of an egg cup made in USA by me!


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## mark88 (Jun 8, 2009)

miserable and poor people…made in canada


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

Hey, Jim and Mark. I just went to your home pages and toured your shops and looked at your projects. Ya'll both have real nice set ups and do some good work. Jim, I see you're also a metalworker. I am too, except all my metalworking stuff is at the plant. :-[ I'd give anything to have that metalworking machinery at my home.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

The currency is about done. We owe about 40% of Gross National Product, maybe more now that everyone is out of or short on work. We now barrow 41% of what the feds spend. Just like the housing bubble, it is unsustainable ;-(( The facts are not political. They do define the future of the next generation. Best be prepared.

If I was able to predicted this melt down 25 years ago, it is very hard for me to believe those clowns that are supposed to be so smart in the banks, on Wall ST. and the Fed Reserve couldn't figure it out.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

helluvawreck,
Thanks for the kudos on the shop. It's neat 'cause I ain't made anything yet! Just a rookie setting it up for the first time. The 8/4 Ash on the floor is my first, erh uh, second project and that is going to be a 21st Century Workbench. Feels like chicken or egg in acquiring enough equipment to accomplish the objective. The only thing I'm waiting on at the moment is a 24T ripping TS blade from WC (try to give them business but it seems like EVERYTHING has to be ordered and you wait 2-4 weeks-coulda just gone online if you know what I mean).

Yep, politics is full of opinions like you say. Just remember that increased production levels over the past century should be factored into the value/amount of the currency in circulation as well. My only real point was the see-saw struggle between employer and employee in who should coming out on top.


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## EEngineer (Jul 4, 2008)

Don't blame the American business men too much. Americans are not willing to pay for American labor.

No, that argument is old and tired. I put in a new steam plant last year. Not knowing any better, the first batch of 2 1/2" fittings were cheap Chinese junk. I split a 90 elbow before the threads were even tight. When I took it back, they wouldn't even refund my money. They took all the unused fittings back, tho. Hell, most of the 90's weren't even 90 degrees. Since they didn't sell anything else, I took my business to a contractor supplier. When I asked about the fittings, he said "Only Wards, made in USA. If we try to sell that cheap Chinese junk the contractors won't buy from us!" Towards the end of the job, I was installing the water line. I was in a hurry and went to HD for a simple 1/2" copper union. The finish was terrible and, damnit, the union would not seal. I ruined it unsoldering, so no refund for that one either. A new NIBCO union, made in the USA, worked perfectly. Any plumbing I do from now on will be done with American fittings and pipe.

So now the question is: "What difference does it make how cheap it is when it simply doesn't do the job it was made to do?" I strongly suspect that the cost of American labor is not the issue here; the difference in price was simply not that great. However, cheaper Chinese goods, sold at the same price as American goods, makes a lot more profit to pay inflated CEO salaries! And by the time any negative effects of poor quality hit company profit, the CEO will be off drawing a fat salary for ruining another company.


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## sawblade1 (Feb 11, 2010)

What we need to do is go back to SUPPORTING YOUR NEIGHBOR!!!!!! For years 30+ years we have been outsourcing work and American jobs, WHY China,and other third world countries slap trade tariffs on products coming out of the U.S. and Canada but WE don't !!!! For years this cancer has been eating away at our country until it has finally almost killed it. Removing the cancer will hurt initially, but do we really need to be reminded why buying American is the safest route, Lead poisoning on our children's toys, recalls on our glassware from fast food restaurants, etc.
Instead of giving banks billions of dollars give it to our small businesses, right now they account for most of the new jobs!! We really need to buy local and send these corporations a message:- Lay off, underpay,cheat and exploit my neighbor while getting obscene profit I refuse to support you and will not buy your product, use your service or invest my money in your business, or stock. enough of us do this they will get the message


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

A friend of mine was active in the Aerospace Union at a large airplane company in the Seattle area ) Members were complaining about the company shipping work over seas. My buddy told them there had been a vote count in the parking lot. They had overwhelmingly voted to send the work over there.

That was a long time ago now. Tom was so adamant about buying USA made, he would not buy a VCR until they made one here. Everybody told him there never would be one made here. He said if there were enough hold outs, one would be made here. I told the Ford salesman when I saw the assembled in Mexico tag, If I want a truck assembled in Mexico, I will look for a Jesus or a Juarez, not a Ford.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

We can't snuff this problem off easily. My brother and I were at the IWF 2008 show in Atlanta 2 years ago and we ran across a booth where a fella from Tawain was selling mantle pieces, corbels, legs and all sorts of other things for the woodworking industry. For example, he had a french mantle that was hand carved that was was done very nicely. The workmanship was excellent. He was selling these for $1000. However, when we talked to him in detail you found that if you purchased these three at a time packed in a crate you could get them for $250. An American craftsman simply cannot compete with this sort of thing. I have seen carvings from Equador that are really very good land in this country for $10 and $15 that could easily be sold in a retail store for $75 to $100 or even $150.

I agree about things like pipe fittings - the quality may not be there yet. However, remember Japan? I remember when automobiles from Japan were considered to be nothing but junk. Yet look at what Japan did with their quality. Given time the Chinese will get their quality up and so will India and other countries that are developing nations. These people are not fools, they are very intelligent people and they are training engineers and technical people at a much faster rate per capita than we are. The other thing is that with modern machine tools and manufacturing methods the machines reduce many of the quality control headaches especially if there are enough skilled quality control and management people on board. This problem is not going away any time soon - it will only get worse.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

Clarification: The seller was from Taiwan however, all of the items were made in China. The 3 piece price was not $250 for 3 but $750 for 3 so $250 each.


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## pashley (Mar 22, 2008)

Quite a hot topic you have going here.

My wife is the benefits and wages administrator for a company of over 40,000. They are a privately held family company. It's also a grocery store business, which means it would be subject to union invasion via trucking to the labor in the stores in warehouses, and their "unfair to labor" claims every time it's contract season.

The founder of the company, instead of fighting the unions took a different tact; he gave the employees reasons not to unionize. Not threats - he just beat any deals the unions could come up with. He paid them great wages, great benefits, hired the best people (which meant your boss and co-workers weren't jerks), and gave them say in how they ran their department; he made them feel like they owned the part of the store they worked in. He realized that if you keep the employee happy, they will keep your customer happy, which in turn, means a profitable company.

They've been the #1 company to work for in the famous Fortune magazine list every year, and been in the top 10 for years. They really are a great company to work for; I worked there myself.

The only thing the owner couldn't keep the unions out of of was trucking - the Teamsters. Some of those guys driving trucks literally make 6 figure incomes, which, I'm sorry, is more than they are worth for driving a truck regionally.

Then we have the local Mott's plant, whose union members are on strike, in dispute with contract issues, because Mott's has dared asked employees to chip in on health insurance payments. These people are working in a factory in excess of $20 per hour, a decent job, I'd say, and they've been on strike for over a month, crippling the company that gives them decent employment.

My opinion? Unions used to be needed because of unsafe and yes, some insane working conditions. Now, unions are out for unions, and have no problem driving the employer into the ground for "unfair" working conditions. I have no sympathy for them, sorry - I've just seen too much negative stuff. Don't get my started on the teacher's unions in New York State, which own the state, either….


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

If every one was fair and equitable, this would not even be a discussion. Too bad the majority wants make in on the backs of others.

I had a friend who made himself a multimillionaire is a few years in the muffler business. He married into it and had a good start. The guys in the shops worked for peanuts and were always short handed. He asked me why I didn't operate that way? My conscience wouldn't allow it.

One thing I have noticed in the vast majority of people who go from employee to employer is the vast majority wasn't good wages and benefits if they are working, but when they become an employer they try to make it on the backs of peons.


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## SnowyRiver (Nov 14, 2008)

How true it is.


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## EEngineer (Jul 4, 2008)

However, remember Japan? I remember when automobiles from Japan were considered to be nothing but junk. Yet look at what Japan did with their quality.

Yeah, I remember Japan and their auto industry… they owe a large part of their improvement in quality to one W. Edwards Deming; an American. His ideas were laughed out of Detroit but they welcomed him in Japan with open arms.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming

But that still begs the question: why do I have to eat Chinese crap until we help them get their quality up to where we had it already?


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

You seem to think that am for this free trade crap. It's disgusting that we have allowed this to happen to America. My point is that it has been happening and will continue to happen. China has a lot of capital, their government gives a lot of benefits to entrepeneurs and does not burden them with a lot of regulations. One of the things that they require is that all of the mfg profit must be reinvested in China. Of course the Chinese government treats their ordinary working people terribly. You can obviously forget freedom as we know it.

I understand where you are coming from about why we have to eat this crap. I suppose my answer would be that Chinese labor is $128/mo or less, the average American keeps buying Chinese products because of the price, and the World Trade Organization keeps making the rules (which are probably never in our favor), and our politicians don't seem to have any inclination whatsoever to do anything about it. Therefore, IMHO, it will continue to be a problem.


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## EEngineer (Jul 4, 2008)

You seem to think that am for this free trade crap.

Naw, wasn't implying that. Just bitchin' and moanin' about that general argument I always hear: Americans won't pay for quality. BS! I did and will. But I just don't get much choice anymore. I can pay more for brands that used to be quality, but they all sell the same cheap crap now!


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## JohnGreco (Jan 13, 2010)

Unions have their place, but you need to remember that they are for-profit companies, as well. Their best interest is not always the best interest of the worker they represent or the company that person works for.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

John, The worker/members are the union. This is not a 3 way situation with the employees trapped in the middle.


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## FMG (Jun 1, 2009)

Banks, lawmakers, and insurance companies, are taking advantage of everyone and we are letting it happen. "The too much to loose" attitude, pacifism, I got mine, cant do without, let the other guy worry about it, don't want to offend anyone mentality is the culture we created. Everyone on this thread has good points, and opinions but until the leadership is held accountable and responsible for their actions (weather its the small business owner, big corporation ie: ENRON or folks in washington) well just keep arguing amongst ourselves and getting scammed. Democrats, Republicans, union, non union is out the window at this point. In addition no longer is it a government for the people by the people. It is government for the politicians by the politicians. Out Of Touch and No Forward Thinking.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

FMG, that is a pretty good summary. Congress is nothing but a bunch of corporate whores. In addition to that, there is another Congressional ethics violation brought forward everyday. Minor things anyone could do, like forgetting to declare a million in income on their tax returns. Influence peddling for personal gain of spouses properties, ect, ect, ect……. Never ends;-(

In 1980, according to Thom Hartman, there were 400 lobbyists in Washington DC. Today, more than 30,000. Too bad things have to get a lot worse before people will come together to demand change. Right now the majority are ignorant of the facts, They tend to listen to propaganda (called news) that reinforces their beliefs. VERy little but propaganda on the major networks. Monopoly capitalism at work.

When I held a few stocks in my retirement accounts, I did quite a bit of research on them and the markets. I concluded there was no reason to own stock. Most do not pay dividends that amount to anything. Only a fool trades the volatility and tries to time the market. Nearly all the corporate profits are going to upper management compensation and bonuses. They are all on each others boards. There is very little anyone can do about it; especially when they file fraudulent financials, then, re-report. They routinely declare shareholder votes as merely advisory and do what the h&%$ they want. Screw the shareholders. Most of the choices set up in 401Ks are for the benefit of Wall Street. They are designed to put at least 50% of the lifetime returns in the managements pockets. Until the institutional investors decide make war on the Wall Street corruption, there is very little the average guy can do but look towards the few honest no load mutual funds if he is investing the markets.

Of course, you need to Made-off proof yourself by using several institutions. There was another b!#&h on the news tonight that was just sentenced for spending $9 million of clients money instead of investing it in their accounts.


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## stefang (Apr 9, 2009)

You are right Bob, it's not so funny but it is true. It only makes me wonder where the world is headed.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Oligarchy in the US is where we are headed. Question is what will the populace vote in if they figure out the propaganda machine has been BSing them for decades? Communist? Socialism? There will be a revolt of some kind in the future.

There was so much wealth being transferred into private hands in the 90s in the form of upper management compensation and bonuses, it was the largest transfer of wealth in the history of the world, It is now probably 10x that!

Half the people have been voting themselves out of a job for the last 30 years and couldn't figure it out. Wealth doesn't trickle down because the wealthy want to build factories and create jobs. I find it very hard to believe, if a simpleton, tradesman like myself figured this out 25 years ago and predicted the melt down and the end of employment in the US, how could the smart guys running the world's biggest companies, government and economy not figure it out? Question becomes, are the stupid or evil?


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