# Rattle Can Minwax Lacquer Leaves Rough Surface



## JohnnyBoy1981 (Mar 15, 2017)

Hi,
I'm trying to use some clear gloss Minwax lacquer from an aerosol can to put a nice finish a project I'm hopefully close to completing.
The wood I'm using is softwood, mostly 2×4's, which I sanded to 220 grit and applied two coats of a Minwax gel stain.
Because of odd angles, I went the rattle can top coat route. I thought it would be easier than brushing on a poly. 
I estimate I've sprayed about 5 coats of the lacquer on my project. I noticed I was getting white/clear nubbins popping up, and the finish overall had a rough feel to it. I took some 0000 steel wool and lightly smoothed the surfaces out, then applied one more coat.
1. How do I know I didn't accidentally scrape off too much of the dried lacquer, compromising the finish? The finish isnt as glossy as I thought it would be.
2. What caused the roughness and nubbins? I've read that spray distance plays a part. So can humidity (it's currently in the '90's and extremely humid outside). 
I was hoping for a nice warm finish, but can't get there yet.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

Raw 2×4 lumber will drink that lacquer right up. Starting with a sanding sealer and sanding that smooth after it dries would give better results. High humidity can cause lacquer to blush, leaving a cloudiness in the finish. Finally, if you are spraying from too far away - particularly in higher temperatures - the lacquer will dry before it hits the surface, leaving a dust coat that you can feel. Fortunately, lacquer is forgiving and going back over with a wet coat will dissolve that since it is solvent based.


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## JohnnyBoy1981 (Mar 15, 2017)

Thanks,
I just went back and sanded the project down with some 400grit sandpaper. It kicked up all kinds of gray dust, but it left the surface smoother. In the right light I can see some places where the lacquer has left a 'wet' look on the project, but it looks dull in other spots.
Should I just sand off the lacquer and the stain, and start over with a sanding sealer at this point?


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

I'm afraid I can't offer much advice on that since I can't see what you've got. Eventually, the lacquer will build up, but in the future, some sort of sealer will save you time and money.


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## pintodeluxe (Sep 12, 2010)

Lacquer works fine as its own sanding sealer. You don't need a separate product.
Plan to scuff sand with very fine sanding sponges between coats. For the final coat you can wet sand with a 1000 grit or 1500 grit soft sanding sponge and water.

The sanding sponges I like best are 1/4" thick and perhaps 4" x 6", and you can find them at Woodcraft etc.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Lacquer works fine as its own sanding sealer. You don't need a separate product.


On 2×4? I disagree. Also, why would you sand the finish on a 2×4 to 1000 grit?

He needed to use some sort of sealer, whether shellac, or GF Enduro, to get a surface he could spray efficiently.


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## JohnnyBoy1981 (Mar 15, 2017)

Is the sealer I should have used a sanding sealer? Would that be applied before the stain like the pre stain sealer Minwax sells for soft woods?
I do have a tiny can of shellac. It's clear. I assume the shellac is best applied after the stain? And should be unwaxed?
I hate to strip this thing and start over…


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

Sanding sealer is just thinned varnish. I sand back the first two layers of lacquer or shellac until baby butt smooth.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

The pre-stain conditioner is intended to reduce blotching of the stain, it's not a sealer - it just soaks into the soft grain to resist the absorption of the stain. It's hard to explain what to do with 2×4 lumber. It's not the best wood to be staining. Consider a pine board though. Pine has early wood and late wood. The early wood is lighter colored and more porous and absorbs stain more easily. The late wood is darker, denser and does not. You've probably seen pine that was stained without a conditioner where the grain appears to have reversed itself. It's because the light early wood becomes very dark due to excess absorption, and the darker late wood absorbs less and stays lighter.

Does all of this solve your problem? Nope, but the questions you are asking are the subject of much longer and more thorough explanations that I can give here.

Videos help. Check out Charles Neil on youtube. He has provided a generous collection of videos that discuss blotching, sealing and much more.

Books help. Everyone knows about Bob Flexner's Understanding Wood Finishing, and it's a good book. Two more I swear by are Great Wood Finishes by Jeff Jewitt, and Foolproof Wood Finishing by Teri Masaschi.

Finally, and maybe I've mentioned it before, but I can't stress enough - do test boards, as many as you need to get confident that you can achieve the result you want on your final piece. If you had taken a foot long hunk of the wood you are using and done all of your sanding, staining and spraying with it, you would have realized early on that a different approach was likely going to be needed.

I specifically mentioned GF Enduro Sanding Sealer because it's easy to use, water based, and is heavy-bodied so it builds well. That's the sort of thing you need on wood like you're using. You can continue to apply it, let it dry, and sand it until you get a smooth surface.


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## JohnnyBoy1981 (Mar 15, 2017)

Point taken. I was so focused on the build, I didn't think about finishing problems outside of potential stain blotching (hence the use of gel stain).

I brought the piece inside out of the heat and humidity. I opened a bunch of windows and turned on some fans. I resprayed some lacquer with the can in a bit closer than I had. The finish is now very smooth. Since the lacquer melts into the previous coat, I'm not sure if I still need to do a final sanding. It seems redundant.


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

When spraying lacquer, you can use it as the sealer. Doesn't matter that it's a 2×4.
Preconditioning before staining is to control blotching which is another topic.

The problem you are having is from over spray and possibly holding the can too far away. 
The trick to using lacquer is to keep a wet coat as your spraying. 
Spray in rows overlapping enough to keep from getting voids in between each row. 
Usually overlap about 50%, you have to control your speed and watch the finish as you're spraying to keep a wet edge and make it all even.

You can't go back over spots without the over spray dulling or roughing up the finish. 
Always try to keep your over spray off of the finish on a previous side or surface.

Sand lightly with 220, or finer, in between each coat. You should be able to sand what you have and re-spray without having to do anything else. Don't strip it and don't use shellac, just sand and respray.

EDIT: Just read your last comment, good job.
4 coats from a rattle can would be good. No need to sand your last coat if you are happy with the sheen and feel.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> When spraying lacquer, you can use it as the sealer. Doesn't matter that it's a 2×4.


One more time. Sealing is one thing, but he was seeking a smooth finish on a very porous wood. So, is it better to use a heavy-bodied sanding sealer like GF that will build up the surface quickly and then spray a topcoat, or to spray endless coats of lacquer? Remember, he's using Minwax, not pre-cat. It's thin stuff and soaks in easily..

Either one will get you there, but one will get you there quicker and more inexpensively.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

Sounds like unnecessary effort. I pick one finish and stick with it unless there is good reason to do otherwise. The time to seal it is before you stain.


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

Not to change the topic too much …..
The only rattle can lacquer I use is *Deft* as all the others have given me a differeent sets of problems!
It also seems to be expelled in a much finer mist and drys very fast.


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## bc4393 (Apr 10, 2015)

The heat and humidity did you in. You should get some melting and some flow before it dries. I did the same thing in Houston here. It was hot as sin in the garage ( and humid as it always in in Houston) when I sprayed my last box and it came out like garbage. I was questioning my technique, how wet I was getting it, the distance, everything. I almost set it on fire I was so ticked. I talked to my dad who was a shop teacher for 30 years and he said he used to get up at like 4 in the morning in Michigan to go in and spray kids projects in the spray booth to get a good finish. I ended up sanding it back smooth with up to 800 grit, got rid of the high spots of the fish eyes and it was butter smooth to the touch then gave it another coat when ii was not hot out. It was still humid so I immediately brought the piece inside where its about 50% humidity and 74 degrees or so and it did it's thing and came out beautiful.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> unless there is good reason to do otherwise.


Bingo! I rest my case.


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

I also don't bother spraying Laquer from a rattle can in heat.Unless it's a small handle or knob.I also don't go more then three light coats or it starts looking like orange peel.
Out here in California it's not sold at very many places that's fine with me because it's very expensive for what you get out of one can.


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

I seen it done once in a cartoon, thought I would try it….


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

Another for what its worth articles.

http://www.rockler.com/how-to/when-to-use-sanding-sealer/


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## JohnnyBoy1981 (Mar 15, 2017)

Thanks for the advice, all!


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## JohnnyBoy1981 (Mar 15, 2017)

> The heat and humidity did you in. You should get some melting and some flow before it dries. I did the same thing in Houston here. It was hot as sin in the garage ( and humid as it always in in Houston) when I sprayed my last box and it came out like garbage. I was questioning my technique, how wet I was getting it, the distance, everything. I almost set it on fire I was so ticked. I talked to my dad who was a shop teacher for 30 years and he said he used to get up at like 4 in the morning in Michigan to go in and spray kids projects in the spray booth to get a good finish. I ended up sanding it back smooth with up to 800 grit, got rid of the high spots of the fish eyes and it was butter smooth to the touch then gave it another coat when ii was not hot out. It was still humid so I immediately brought the piece inside where its about 50% humidity and 74 degrees or so and it did it s thing and came out beautiful.
> 
> - bc4393


Other pratfalls aside, I think a lot of the problem was the humidity. After bringing it inside from my humid garage, sanding with sine 400 grit paper, and reapplying the lacquer at a closer distance, I'm starting to get a finish that's smooth to the touch and actually seeing some glossiness now.
Still, some type of sealer would have saved me time and possibly money: I'm on my fourth rattle can of lacquer and Lowe's sells them for $8.99 each. There's not much in them!


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## GR8HUNTER (Jun 13, 2016)

let all agree finishing is harder then the build


> ?


? :<))


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

> let all agree finishing is harder then the build
> 
> 
> > ?
> ...


NOPE!
Just like anything, you have to learn.
Once you learn it's no different than anything else, you just do it.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

> let all agree finishing is harder then the build
> 
> 
> > ?
> ...


Not harder but less fun for some, like me, but others like it. There are professional finishers.


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

And old woodworkers proverb, *"all done except for the finishing"*


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## BillWhite (Jul 23, 2007)

Just my thoughts and experience…....
I have found that the nozzles on some MF finishes don't atomize well.
Might just be a goofy issue, but no matter what I tried, I got crappy spray.
Bill


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## JohnnyBoy1981 (Mar 15, 2017)

Despite lacquer melting into the previous coat and hopefully smoothing out, is it common to do a final sanding or buffing on it? 
I've read about people using fine grit paper, wet/dry grit paper using all manner of liquids or thinners, paste wax and even a brown paper bag to smooth and buff the final product.
Is any of that necessary?


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## ArtMann (Mar 1, 2016)

I use the brown paper bag method on my cnc carvings and it works great. Actually, I use it in between coats of sprayed lacquer to remove little nibs and imperfections.


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## JohnnyBoy1981 (Mar 15, 2017)

> I use the brown paper bag method on my cnc carvings and it works great. Actually, I use it in between coats of sprayed lacquer to remove little nibs and imperfections.
> 
> - ArtMann


Do you just rub the bag with the grain or use a circular buffing motion to achieve the smoothness?


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> I use the brown paper bag method on my cnc carvings and it works great. Actually, I use it in between coats of sprayed lacquer to remove little nibs and imperfections.
> 
> - ArtMann
> 
> ...


I like the results I get using white non-woven pads. Gotta be white though, the others are too rough.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

Just for fun (and because I'm anal-retentive), I decided to play around with some 2X, which I assume would be similar to what JB was using, just to see how the lacquer behaved. I took a piece of 2×3, sanded it to 220 and masked off half of it. On the exposed half, I applied 3 coats of General Finishes Enduro water based sanding sealer, and then sanded it with 220 to make it smooth.

I then sprayed three coats of Deft gloss lacquer from a spray can across the whole board. As you can see in the photos below, the untreated side behaved as expected - the lacquer stayed on top of the late wood and soaked right into the early wood. Even on the first coat, the late wood was looking pretty good. By the third coat, the late wood had a really nice finish on it - almost as nice as the side with the sanding sealer. However, the early wood never did start to get a decent build. Yes, it's sealed, but it's going to take a lot more coats to get a decent finish.

I considered continuing on to see how many coats it took to get a build on the early wood, but figured I'd already been nerdy enough.

Just to note: the LJers who said lacquer can be used as a seal coat are exactly correct. That untreated wood could have been sprayed and sanded and the early wood would have retained the lacquer, while the late wood would have been made bare. That would give you less blotching when stain was applied. It does not, however, provide the sort of base to build a topcoat on that the sanding sealer does. For the record, Mohawk makes a lacquer-based heavy bodied sanding sealer (M102-0491) in a spray can that does the same thing.

First coat:










Second coat:










Third coat:


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## JohnnyBoy1981 (Mar 15, 2017)

Interesting experiment. Thanks for taking the time to post results!

Earlier you spoke of using white nonwoven pads. Could you please explain what those are? Pads that go on buffing machines? Or just loose fabric pads? And do you wipe with the grain or buff in circular patterns? Finally, I assume it's the last step in the finish process?

Lot's of questions!


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Interesting experiment. Thanks for taking the time to post results!
> 
> Earlier you spoke of using white nonwoven pads. Could you please explain what those are? Pads that go on buffing machines? Or just loose fabric pads? And do you wipe with the grain or buff in circular patterns? Finally, I assume it s the last step in the finish process?
> 
> ...


They sell them many places. Here is a Woodcraft link: https://www.woodcraft.com/products/norton-non-woven-sanding-pad-1pc-white-0000

It's also sometimes called synthetic steel wool.


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## JohnnyBoy1981 (Mar 15, 2017)

RichTaylor,

As a follow-up to the discussion of lacquer as it's own sealer, I did my own experiment. I took a piece of softwood lumber (fir or pine or whatever they use) and I applied one coat of clear Zinsser shellac to one side and all edges. I then used some of this Minwax gloss spray lacquer I've been using on my entire project. Even after three coats of lacquer, the finish looked about the same as the first. It went on nice and evenly and for it being just a plain sanded board, the wood looked really nice and warm and the soft grain was highlighted nicely.

On the other side of the board, I just sprayed coat after coat of the lacquer without applying shellac first. The board just drank it up, and the finish still doesn't look good.

Unfortunately, the latter method is how I finished my end table project. It looks nice, but I bought a ridiculous amount of lacquer to get there.

So, while this illustrates the importance of testing the finishes out, it also is a prime example of the school of hard knocks: if I'd known that a separate sealer would have improved my outcome (and for less money and effort), or even if I'd known such a thing even existed, I certainly would have used it.

I'll just have to file that new bit of knowledge away for my next project! It's not a mistake if I learn from it, right?


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## sawdustdad (Dec 23, 2015)

Wipe on Poly has become my favorite finish these days. Solves so many finishing problems.

Never seen MinWax spray lacquer. Have used their spray on Poly many times and it can be problematic unless used in a climate controlled situation.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

Awesome, JB. Thanks for sharing. That's how you learn. After years of building things and screwing up the finish, I decided I needed to improve. Now, I've become a hopeless geek with jars of this, cans of that, and countless test boards. It's paid off though - I can finally have some confidence in what I'm doing.

This thread got kind of muddled. Many LJers were correctly saying that lacquer is a sealer. That reduces blotching. However, I knew you were trying to get a smooth finish on a porous soft wood, so I was suggesting a heavy bodied product that would build quickly, and be clear. I probably didn't make too many friends in the process.

To speed the learning curve, I can't recommend Charles Neil's youtube videos enough. He's a true expert on cabinetmaking and finishing.


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

Muddled for sure. So many variables. Specially using rattle cans.
Lots of advise is from spraying with finish equipment using professional products.
Myself have been spraying pre-cat for the last 12 or so years and wouldn't waste my time with sanding sealer.
For the record, I've been doing my own finishing for over 35 years.
I started spraying nitrocellulose lacquers and always used sealer underneath. 
All I can say is I wish I had knew about pre-cat then. 
As far as the friends comment, were all good here. 
We've all gone down are own roads, and learned what we have learned. Sometimes it's hard to convey your experience in a few words on a forum. (at least for me anyway)

Edit: If you sand the lacquer between coats it will close the pores and the next coat will lay better!


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Wipe on Poly has become my favorite finish these days. Solves so many finishing problems.
> 
> Never seen MinWax spray lacquer. Have used their spray on Poly many times and it can be problematic unless used in a climate controlled situation.
> 
> - sawdustdad


+1 on wipe on poly. Nothing could be easier, and the results are great. In fact, I prefer to wipe on urethane finishes, period. I did a countertop with Waterlox sealer/finisher and top-coated with Waterlox satin urethane. I tested brushing and wiping, and wiping gave the best results hands-down.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> We ve all gone down are own roads, and learned what we have learned. Sometimes it s hard to convey your experience in a few words on a forum. (at least for me anyway)
> 
> - jbay


Well said. When you consider the volumes of books, and countess hours of videos on finishing, we sure can't sum things up in a few paragraphs on here.

I like JB's attitude though. I think he's going about it in the right way.

jbay, just curious. How are those sanding sealer tips coming? Did my tip help?


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

"When you consider the volumes of books, and countess hours of videos on finishing, we sure can't sum things up in a few paragraphs on here."

I'm thinking the number of hours in the shop scraping off a finish because it lifted, or wiping down a stain job because the color didn't match correctly, or trying to fix some fish eye only to see it keep getting worse,
or…... 
JB's school of hard knox is just starting lol

"jbay, just curious. How are those sanding sealer tips coming? Did my tip help? "

Still trying to figure out how to clean out my 2001 binks guns with it.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

JB s school of hard knox is just starting lol

If it was easy it wouldn't be so much fun.

Still trying to figure out how to clean out my 2001 binks guns with it.

You're in luck. I'm doing a blog post on that next week.


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## JohnnyBoy1981 (Mar 15, 2017)

I appreciate the tips and patience, guys! In a way, you're right: if it was easy it wouldn't be fun. I would likely have used less profanity, but still… Lol!


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