# How to fix this...lid bowed on my box creating a gap



## BB1 (Jan 29, 2016)

I made this hickory box and was really happy with how it turned out.









After almost a week after I finished, I noted a gap had developed in the front where I had a good fit originally.









As can be seen in the picture, the lid bowed. I now see the grain on the end and am guessing I should have cut the board into three sections and reversed the middle and glued them up. I am considering trying this yet (taking the lid off and doing the cuts and glue up). Before I attempt this, are there any other options that I should consider? I may just leave it as is…although it will bug me to see that gap!


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## ralbuck (Mar 12, 2012)

WE made benches from a big slab of honey locust that was very POLITICAL ==(CROOKED).

We made a frmae that does not show from old bed steel and using screws from the bottom up about 2/3 of the depth of the bench and spaced quite close together-maybe 3 to 4 inches apart and very tightly scrwed them in with pilot holes to prevent splitting. This was about 5 years ago. They are outside but semi-shelteered in the NW OR climat and still have not twisted up.

Hope this helps the box is very nice.

The other idea you mentioned with biscuit joints should also work well. Good Luck


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## Rrrandy (Feb 1, 2017)

BB1, if you did the cuts and gluing that would work except your top would then be two blade widths smaller. You could compensate for this by inserting two thin strips of another color wood. Your top would then be a work of art… Also, you don't need biscuits, rub joints would work just fine.


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## papadan (Mar 6, 2009)

I agree with Rrrandy!


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## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

You didn't finish both sides of the lid the same.

The inside of boxes has less airflow than the outside and that sets up a differential in moisture that causes warping.

M


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## BB1 (Jan 29, 2016)

> BB1, if you did the cuts and gluing that would work except your top would then be two blade widths smaller. You could compensate for this by inserting two thin strips of another color wood. Your top would then be a work of art… Also, you don t need biscuits, rub joints would work just fine.
> 
> - Rrrandy


I had not considered the loss of wood due to the cuts - thanks for the reminder on that! Not sure if this will end up being a "work of art" but I appreciate the idea!!



> You didn t finish both sides of the lid the same.
> 
> The inside of boxes has less airflow than the outside and that sets up a differential in moisture that causes warping.
> 
> ...


Actually I did finish both sides at the same time. The wood "moved" days after I had finished with 4 coats of poly on both sides. Having now looked closely at the board, I see the rings are basically looking like a smile curving upward and the board just had to move even though it was nicely flat during construction and when finishing.


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## ScottM (Jul 10, 2012)

An easier fix would be to put a cleat on the inside of the lid going across the grain. This would pull the lid back down flat. The lid doesn't look too thick so I don't think it would be hard to pull it flat. You could make it out of a different species, walnut or something, for a little "visual interest".


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## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

Unfortunately, thin pieces of plain sawn wood with grain like that usually warp. The piece is nice looking but it warped.


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## BB1 (Jan 29, 2016)

Thank you for the suggestion. Followup question…the lid is about 3/4 inch thick so how would I determine the optimal cleat size? Would you suggest one to each side?



> An easier fix would be to put a cleat on the inside of the lid going across the grain. This would pull the lid back down flat. The lid doesn t look too thick so I don t think it would be hard to pull it flat. You could make it out of a different species, walnut or something, for a little "visual interest".
> 
> - ScottM


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## EricTwice (Dec 9, 2016)

I would agree with Scott M. cleats across the top on the inside.

You may have to play with them a little. I have done this on tables that were badly warped. Flat might not be enough. By rounding the top of the cleats slightly (think rocking chair rockers but not that drastic) you can add pressure. If one side is more warped than the other you can put different pressure on each side.

To figure out the optimum size of the cleats take the lid off the hinges and clamp cleat material underneath. (be sure to pad the top against the clamps) you can check for flatness with a straight edge and change the pressure until it's right.


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## Mikesawdust (Jan 29, 2010)

Off the wall option would be to match the curve on the box sides and make it unique. You could still flatten the top of the lid.


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## johnstoneb (Jun 14, 2012)

The top is flatsawn and just did what flatsawn wood will do. the finish had nothing to do with the wood movement or lack there of.

Cleats or as Randy suggests would work


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

I agree with the idea of adding cleats but you have to install them so you allow for wood movement. before installing the cleats put elongated holes in the cleats placed so they lid can expand across the grain then screw the cleats on but do not glue the cleats. Next time you make a lid or top you might want to check the moisture content of the wood and or use 1/4 sawn wood for the top.


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## JBrow (Nov 18, 2015)

BB1,

Nice looking chest. I like the way the sap wood was integrated into the build. You obviously spent some time planning the use of your material.

I think the problem is a differential moisture problem; too much moisture in the surface on the underside of the lid versus on the outer surface. This is likely due to more moisture leaving the upper surface than from the lower surface.

Cleats may work to bring it back to flat and this can be determined by EricTwice's method.

But if the cleats fail to work, a more radical approach could be taken. The first step would be to coax the lid back to flat. The lid could be removed and set aside or left wide open hoping that the moisture level of the upper face of the lid will equalized with the moisture level of the lower face. This could take several days or longer since 4 coats of poly will impede moisture exchange.

If the lid remains cupped, the finish could be removed and then set aside to flatten. Some moisture could be applied to concave side (the face that is drier) after finish is removed if simply allowing the lid to rest does not work.

Once the lid is as flat as you can get it, some relief cuts with a core box router bit on the underside of the lid could be introduced. These could be a series of parallel slots about 2" apart running parallel to the grain and at a depth of about ¼" (for a ¾" thick lid). The relief slots should help keep the lid flat. Cleats could be added but may not be needed after making the relief cuts. But if people will sit on the lid, adding two or three cleats for added strength might be worthwhile.

The relief cuts, being visible of the ends of the lid, would change the appearance of the project. The relief cuts would make it more difficult for the lid to cup and would introduce a little air flow on the underside of the lid.

I am not sure how effective the relief cuts would be or whether the cuts would become problematic if the relief cuts are stopped cuts; not running all the way to the ends of the lid.


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## Andybb (Sep 30, 2016)

I was told after having the same happen to me that the general consensus is that anything resawn to half of its thickness will warp. Mine warped over night and it was 3/4 maple from an almost 2" slab.


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## DanielP (Mar 21, 2013)

Sand the underside, particularly in the area where the bow begins to lift. All else being equal that should flatten it. This worked for me on a box lid that curled up.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

There are several ways to go about it from
cleats, sawing and re-gluing to breadboard
ends.

A simple solution would be to double-stick
tape some sandpaper to a flat surface
and sand the bottom of the lid flat. If it
moves again after that, well that's a problem,
but if the board has moved all it wants to,
then sanding the bottom flat could be a
solution which would work.

Lesson learned though, eh?


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## ScottM (Jul 10, 2012)

Save your finish and try the cleat option first but do keep in mind the points that a1Jim made about allowing wood movement. Especially if that lid is a single board and not a glue up.


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## BB1 (Jan 29, 2016)

I'll look more closely at all the helpful suggestions. I did want to note that the box is small- only about 15 inches by 9 inches and 8 inches tall. Not sure if that impacts the suggested solutions.

This is the project post http://lumberjocks.com/projects/305874


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## BB1 (Jan 29, 2016)

More reflection…this is used to store our pups' "special treats" that they have for a bit in the evening when supervised. This includes flat rawhide pieces and antlers (spoiled, very spoiled dogs). With this in mind, there is likely a moisture factor for the items when placed back in the box. Would either the sanding and/or the cleats address that issue or am I looking at the warping continuing due to the purpose/contents of the box. My main goal was to get these treats out of sight when not being chewed on. Even with the warped lid, the box does achieve that goal but I am proud enough to be bothered by that gap…thus all the questions (and so appreciative of all the hints and suggestions - who would think a simple box could get so complicated?! As Loren noted…lesson learned).


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

If the cleats are adequately stiff, they'll keep a thin board like that from bending. I believe that cleats should have been a part of the design from the beginning. To expect any board that thin to remain dead flat is asking too much, especially a wide slab of flat-sawn wood like that. If you search around the web for images of blanket chests as an example, you'll find that the ones with a board for a lid virtually all have some sort of means to keep the lid flat - either cleats, or breadboard ends.


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## unclearthur (Jul 4, 2013)

> .... there is likely a moisture factor for the items when placed back in the box. Would either the sanding and/or the cleats address that issue or am I looking at the warping continuing due to the purpose/contents of the box.


I had a similar problem with a similarly sized box I made as a humidor. After loading up the humidor the top warped significantly, but if I physically removed the top from the box it would flatten out. Back on the box and it would warp again, all presumably because of the large moisture difference inside and out. Eventually covered the lid in some sort of clear epoxy which seemed to block all water vapor exchange. Been fine since; however the lid on close inspection does look more "plasticy" than the rest of the box. Good luck.


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## BB1 (Jan 29, 2016)

Tried a number of remedies…cut some channels on the bottom, sanded, added some cleats, and then refinished.









Just reinstalled and looks like I didn't get it. 









Thanks for all the suggestions. My guess is that I didn't get the cleats done correctly. Think I may call the gap a "design element" and move on to my next project adventure (with lesson learned!)


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

My experience with hickory is it's pretty stout so trying to force those 3/4 boards flat is gonna take longer cleats with some width and thickness to make a difference.
Nice looking box I like it and the warped lid doesn't bother me at all.The overall look is good and the warping is something that naturally happens.


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## builtinbkyn (Oct 29, 2015)

You could try planing some or maybe even all of the warp out. It would require re-profiling the edges and refinishing the lid. Then install longer cleats. The cleats should have the edge grain in contact with the lid as there's more resistance to bending in that direction. Maybe use three. They can have a profile as well - they could taper at the ends and maybe be a decorative element.


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## Rrrandy (Feb 1, 2017)

If you have left over hickory you should redo the lid. I really don't like the cleats.


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## BB1 (Jan 29, 2016)

Thanks for the additional comments. I don't have much time in the shop and have a few gifts I want to complete so likely will leave this (at least for now) as this is just a box for me rather than for someone else. I do have some extra hickory so if I have "extra" time as the other projects progess (watching glue dry is a bit boring!) I may try starting over with the lid. Likely will try a glue up with alternating pieces if I can create a nice visual effect. Again, thank you to everyone for helpful suggestions.


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## ScottM (Jul 10, 2012)

Put the edge grain of the cleat against the top instead of the face grain. It could be that the cleat is thin enough that it is also bending in the same direction as the top. The edge grain will provide more strength against that.


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## JBrow (Nov 18, 2015)

BB1,

Even though you are moving on, I thought you might be interested in this Fine Woodworking article entitled "Keeping Plank Doors Flat" from November/December 2000. All five methods may have been applicable to your project. I ran across the article today.

http://www.finewoodworking.com/membership/pdf/23131/011145078.pdf


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## BB1 (Jan 29, 2016)

Thank you so much for sharing this source! Gives me some good options for this as well as future projects. All the pictures in the article are really helpful as I'm pretty new to woodworking so seeing the "how to" for the techniques is needed!



> BB1,
> 
> Even though you are moving on, I thought you might be interested in this Fine Woodworking article entitled "Keeping Plank Doors Flat" from November/December 2000. All five methods may have been applicable to your project. I ran across the article today.
> 
> ...


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## tynewman (Mar 10, 2019)

Wood is always going to move, and for wide pieces of wood that means warping. From the look of your top im guessing you built this somewhere the humidity was low (cold shop during winter maybe) then moved it indoors or somewhere with a higher humidity. Wood tends to expand and contract along the rings, your rings have lengthened, hence the increased humidity. The finish slows expansion and contraction, but doesn't stop it. Using quarter sawn wood helps because the rings run face to back and thickness is affected, but not much and width much less then plain sawn. That is why cabinet doors are typically panels in a frame. Flat doors are typically plywood with banding. If you plain a 1/16th off either end of your braces and make ones that put the edge against the top instead of the face you'll have better luck


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## bilyo (May 20, 2015)

If you decide to give it another try: I think your cleats are simply too short. Try making them longer so that they just fit inside the box when the lid is closed. Then put your screws as close to the ends as you can without splitting (maybe 1/2"). You might also try putting a slight curve into the top side of the cleats.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

This thread is almost two years old. I suspect she's moved on from that project by now.


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## BB1 (Jan 29, 2016)

I still have the box and depending on the day as well as the contents with the pups chew bones etc (in terms of some moisture on the inside), the gap is somewhat variable. Looking at it tonight -well, there is a slight gap but for its purpose, I have never redone the top. Although it is not perfectly flat, the hickory I used for the top is pretty and so ok with it as is. Thanks for the additional suggestions - always learning in this woodworking hobby!


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## ruger (Feb 20, 2018)

i know it's over kill but this top won't warp


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## ruger (Feb 20, 2018)

i over think my boxes.


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## tynewman (Mar 10, 2019)

Wow, it looks great, I love all of the dovetail detail. I didn't realize how old the original post was. I'm new to Lumberjocks. I was looking for solutions to keep solid doors from warping (i have a warping paranoia) and your post popped up in google. So, I signed up and started posting.


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## rance (Sep 30, 2009)

I'd put money on it that you resawed the lid. I learned that hard lesson too on 7 box lids. If you ever resaw a box lid, cut it oversize and let it acclimate for a few weeks before you re-square it up and use it. Other methods can also help. No ONE solution to the problem. It helps to use multiple solutions combined.

Congrats on the education.

Rance


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## BB1 (Jan 29, 2016)

Always lessons to learn!

The guess on my resawing the board I used for the lid is not correct (no bandsaw at the time) -was just a nice section of hickory that I wanted to feature for the lid.



> I d put money on it that you resawed the lid. I learned that hard lesson too on 7 box lids. If you ever resaw a box lid, cut it oversize and let it acclimate for a few weeks before you re-square it up and use it. Other methods can also help. No ONE solution to the problem. It helps to use multiple solutions combined.
> 
> Congrats on the education.
> 
> ...


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