# Searching for infrared heaters _ I got a surprise!



## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

Afternoon last week searching for information regarding gas-fired infrared heater for my new shop. 
I was delighted when I found a website that could respond to me and lucky me, right my own hometown.
I hastily filled in their get acquainted form and left my e-mail address along with a question as to where I might able to look at a customer installation to get a feel for this technology as I was not right up to speed at that time with what it could and could not do. 
I wanted to see it in operation.

Here's the reply I received from the local representative here:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Hello Bob,

Again, thank you for your interest in our Calcana Heaters. *We do not give out customer information to let you see what an installation looks like.* If you have any other questions or concerns please call or email me to discuss them or you may come visit us at our store.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I was tempted to write back and say:
*"Is it O.K. if I just slip my money under your door and that way you can send me whatever you like, when you like?"*
Needless to say I was quite disappointed with the response and moved on to another vendor. Sometimes I just don't understand how some people manage to stay in business. 
I have managed to find another vendor is more than happy to accommodate me as well as recommend an installer for my needs.

.
How do folks like this stay in business?

Bob


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## GaryK (Jun 25, 2007)

Well, they keep their customers privacy private. Would like a company giving out your address to any joe blow who asked them?

They could have been more helpful to say the least though.


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## lew (Feb 13, 2008)

Some years ago, when I added the dining room to our house, I installed a small propane fireplace. It was purchased from a local dealer. Took it home, set it up and connected the LP gas line from the tank- instant heat!

A couple of years later, I thought- hey, why not use the same large propane tank to fuel the grill. I thought about how convenient it would be to not have to get that little grill tank filled/exchanged. Off to the local fireplace retailer for some fittings and hoses. Nope- can't sell you those- you are not licensed to install propane devices. Ok, the next stop- the high pressure fittings dealer- "Got any flexible propane hose?" Yes, but we can't sell it to you. Now I am starting to get a little frustrated. Next stop- the propane dealer- "I need hoses and fittings to hook up the grill to my fireplace line, will you sell them to me?" Sure!- but we have to do the work!!! Folks, This is not rocket science- flare a tube, Teflon tape or pipe joint compound, soapy water pressure test- we are only talking a few psi of pressure here. What's the deal!???!!

In a word *LIABILITY*.

More than likely, showing you how to do even the simplest of tasks, can make them liable for any damage/accidents.

Perhaps we should follow the words of Shakespeare- "First, kill all the lawyers."

Lew


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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

I understand where you are both comming from but the problem is a bit deeper than that of simple liability.

First, there is inadequate information on the website to make an intelligent purchasing decision. 
I could say that about 99% of the websites right now.

They seem to be tossed together only to show a "presence" and a phone number.
The pictures are bloody awful and the descriptions are worse.

Secondly, the logistics of travelling to each potential vendor, waiting for "competent" help and discusing my project is daunting. I'm on a time restricted budget like most others.

More over I am not even sure at this point if the device I'm seeing is capable of supplying my needs. (see my first point)

Many vendors, myself included, have a short list of satisfied customers that will oblige a prospective customer and are often key in convincing the client to make a purchase from us.

So the long and the short of it is:

Either have sufficient information at hand to help your customers make a purchase or expect them to continue searching until they find the right vendor that can.

Lastly there is the presumption that my intention was to "steal" technical information and use it to install my own system.

That remains a very short sighted view of what a customer is looking for.

The reason that I took on the task of looking for a heater is because I had a plumbing and gasf itting fellow out to the site and he quoted me $2350.00 for a heater and didn't even tell me what it was or what it looked like.
When I pushed him a bit harder he came up with a wallmount zero clearence 35,000 BTU unit.
I priced a similar unit at Home Depot for $548.00.

Let me tell you crap like that make you into a shopper! <g>

Bob


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## LeeJ (Jul 4, 2007)

Bi Bob;

Good topic;

My situation is a bit different in that I don't advertise. So anyone calling has been recommended by a past client. So they have already seen my work, and heard of our business practices.

I am always a bit hesitant to have prospective clients contact previous clients, but only from the point of not wanting to impose on them. I will show them my portfolio, and my website, and simply by discussing their project *they* generally decide such a visit is unnecessary as this is on top of the recommendation.

Most of my clients tell us to bring potential clients as they would be happy to recommend us, and I do take them up on it on occasion.

I also provide complete disclosure of all materials, including cut sheets, if not already provided by blueprints, as is often the case.

And if all else fails, we'll go visit a few previous clients.

I certainly understand your frustration in dealing with these "top secret companies though", and agree,
KEEP LOOKING.

Lee


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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

Thanks for your input Lee.
Your method makes complete sense to me.
Having a portfolio is a great way to showcase your work.
In the case of this furnace vendor has none or didn't mention it or didn't bother to put it on the web site.
That's what prompted me to ask so see an installation (if he indeed has one) ;-)
The guy has my street address and phone number from the website and didn't have enough marketing sense to either call me or send me more technical info.
I consider that a good time to stop trying to do any further business with him.

For years I have had a simple rule that I follow with my customers:
*NEVER say NO!*
It's a real turn off for them as they usually have good intentions however confused they may be at the time.

So we say "Yes that seems like a reasonable request, let me see what I can do to accomodate you"

Or on occasion, "yes I could lower my price but that would mean that I would have to lower my service as well. Is that what you want?"

When a customer is pleased with us and tells us we always ask if we can use them for a referral.
I have customers all over Canada and we simply can't be in every city to give hands on demonstrations but we can often hook up a pair of people to get past that hump.
It just common sense.

Cheers

Bob


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

I always ask my clients if I can use them as a reference and again, I always ask again if a prospective new client wants to tour or talk to them.

Bob. I bought a "radiant tube heater", propane for the ceiling and I think that way back when I paid around 5 grand….......installed. As you know I live in the snow belt and winters can be very long and very cold. There is no protection from the freezing cold driving wind that can knock down a child. With a footprint of 1,500 sq ft I used less then 800 in fuel this past long cold winter…..........and that kept it a comfortable 65 F.

maybe this year might be the year I buy the boiler and hook up the tubing in the floor…........heat the whole barn 4,000 sq ft, the whole house (3,500 sq ft) hot water, clothes dryer and the pool…........for ZERO dollars except the cost to drive the pump.

Almost everything I have bought at the big box stores….....................I have since replaced.

Lee….........I never give complete disclosure of the cost of materials. I am curious as to why you do?

Gas fitting should remain a "regulated" trade and in my opinion should never ever be done by some one not licensed. I was witness to a "do it yourself" job at a church. The church went "BOOM" and in mere seconds the only thing left was a giant empty swimming pool. I think they found the Pastures thumb.


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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

Roman:
You just told me more about radiant heating than I gained after an afternoon on the web and a formal enquiry to this outfit.
Finding out how a product works and what environment is best is due dilligence on my part.
Refusing to co-operate is at the discretion of the vendor.

I have no quarrel with a gas fitter installiing my equipment.
I'm meeting mine at this site Friday morning at 9:00

I'm a guy with currently 10 furnaces to care and feed and comming up on #11.

Bob


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## DannyBoy (Oct 26, 2007)

Not to hijack the thread, but I don't agree with the "Never say no." philosophy of customer service. In many service industries not knowing when to say no to a customer is a recipe for disaster.

For example: at the bank that I work at we have a mortgage agent who has a real problem saying no. In fact, he has continually disappointed customers beyond imagination by getting them right up to closing before having to stop the entire process because of a material fact (that he knew from the start) contractually prevented our bank from doing mortgage business with the customer. So, in this instance he performs with less customer service by not saying no to the customer.

I understand the spirit of the philosophy. But the fact is that you can do more harm than good by pandering in certain cases. This isn't to say that I don't agree with the general mood of this topic. The situation that Bob describes in the opening post is very short sited on the part of the proposed vendor. The contact there should have done a better job trying to understand a potential client's needs and attempted (if able) to service him.

~Danny Boy
(Bracing himself for disagreements)


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

I think , as has been pointed out, tho company in question was just trying to protect its customers' privacy. But they obviously haven't done a very good job of web design or communication in general.

Danny Boy, I agree with you 100% in one sense… I deal every day with contractors of all sorts who make promises they cannot keep, just because they are afraid to say no. A broken promise is much worse than a "no" in my book.

But I don't think Bob was advocating saying yes to things you can't deliver. What he is really saying, I believe, is that you need to learn how to say "no" in a positive way. It is possible to say no without using the actual words like "no" and "can't".


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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

Charlie gets it!
Yes, we have no bananas! <vbg>

I should have added at the start that if we can't service the customers needs at a point in time we are always willing to direct him to a solution even if it means sending them to our competition.

It's really about the truth in selling. Nobody ever speaks ill of the vendor that tells the truth.
I actully relish sending a gnarly request to my competition.
I usually get a much better client back. <g>

Bob


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

Sometimes I just dont get it. Some time ago I acquired a 1956 Chriscraft boat. A 16' inboard….........very cool as it sounded like a Harley in the water.

When it came time to paint the bottom of the hull (below the water line) I called the only marine supply store in these parts and they said they had the paint so I drive the 20 minute drive and get to the store.

The owner gives me this great lengthy speech on the merits of their best paint and after his 20 miniute speech I say that I will buy a gallon, he says they only sell quarts so I say I will take four quarts and he replies "I cant sell it you".............?

Whats the next best paint….same speech, same result

What have you got that I can buy that you will sell…........it doesnt come in blue so I ask if I can tint the white and he says no. Not even with universal fine grind 100% tint I ask…........No.

I bought it, tinted it and it worked fine.

Bob. I'm not sure if there is a difference between "infrared" and the "Radiant" but mine warms the shop up in mere minutes. Having a concrete floor might not hurt as it heats objects opposed to "space".

Good Luck


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## JB40 (May 22, 2008)

The good news is radiant heat is great for garages. Radiant Garage Heaters There's big money to be saved by heating only objects in your space instead of all the air that will fly out that garage door every time it opens!


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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

I'm getting more info from you folks than I can get from the vendors!

I kind of have my heart set on a wood floor and I need to find out how much radiant heat will be absorbed now as opposed to concrete.
I also need to figure out how radiant heat might affect chemicals like glues, paints etc so I can provide for that.
So many questions

Yep Roman, you just described the proverbial "in store raised" counter clerk mentality.
Too many lables and too little experience.

Bob


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## Tikka (May 14, 2007)

Now for my 2 cents worth. As we both live in similar climates, if you can expend the cost, go for a concrete floor, underfloor heating. Then clad the floor with compressed wood chip, 19mm interlocking flooring.

I suspended my floor 1 cm above the concrete using fir stickers placed in a 50cm x 50cm grid, this will give a little spring to the board and help to reduce fatigue on you feet and legs (compared to concrete only floor), kind to tools dropped on the floor, but you can roll a 800lb machine over the surface without problems.

another nice thing about this system is, if the heating is off during the winter, you still have some insulation between (1 cm air and 19 mm wood chip) your feet and the Frosty concrete.


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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

Hi Tony:
I've decided to go with a completely wooden floor as a city here as restrictions on the type of building that I can place in my backyard and the requirements for a concrete slab are much more rigorous than the wooden floor.
I intend to use 2×10" rafters and will fill Lake spaces between them with a new product manufactured near here called a roxul. It is made from a rock product similar to spun manufactured Fiberglas, but much denser and almost fire resistant. I intend to use the same material on the walls which will reduce my sound levels from 120 dB at the tablesaw to 60 dB outside the building. This should appease the neighbors. I was able to get in touch with the owner of the infrared furnace systems here in Alberta, and he was most accommodating. We will be using a 10 foot infrared furnace with a 10 foot extension across the ceiling gimme a full 20 feet of radiant heat. The cost of running these furnaces is approximately 60% less than a conventional gas-fired furnace. With our winters I'm looking forward to reducing my fuel consumption.p.s. 
I had to fire my first framer today( befroe he even started) so I am starting over after work with a new guy.

regards

Bob


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## Tikka (May 14, 2007)

Hiring a framer - Haven't you got a hammer and nails? or have you got use them over there to meet the "codes"?

I understand the restrictions on the floor, I think somebody has already mentioned it, but DO NOT forget the damp proof membrane under the floor and walls - all that lovely dry heat in the workshop, keeping the wood at a nice 8% (40%RH), then the summer comes and the RH goes up to 90% and it takes you 3 months to dry the walls and floor out again.

It sounds like a really nice heating system, hopefully it is as efficient as they say - we do not have gas here only Electric and that is a NO NO for heating the workshop, just too expensive.

I guess I am lucky - my heating bill for the workshop last year was 110€ (US$170) for 12 months - 3 cubic meters of Birch logs and the shavings from the lathe. but the good thing is I made some "weed pots" on the lathe from the Birch logs and sold them for 240€. I even heat the workshop in the summer mornings, just to keep the humidity levels down to 40 - 45% all year round.

I am enjoying this series of blogs - I am going to let you make all the mistakes in the building project before I start mine - then hopefully my mistakes will not be as many as they would have been. good luck with the new framer


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