# Lee Valley Chisels...Updated



## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

I have the below pictured tools and am kinda disappointed in them. Today I was dovetailing some oak and when I was done I found them to have some small dents/chips in the cutting edge. To experiment I cleaned them up and did some more dovetails. Same result. Is the red oak hard enough to do this damage? I have the angle on the chisels at 25 degrees. Anyone else have chisel problems?


----------



## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

My Japanese ebay chisels hold an edge way better than
my Lee Valley chisels.

I had the same results with LV chisels you had and I was kinda 
disappointed with them.


----------



## ShaneA (Apr 15, 2011)

Never heard Lee Valley and tool clearing house used in the same sentence before, interesting. Are those models on the lower price end of their line? Not that it makes it ok though.


----------



## Benvolio (Feb 10, 2013)

for dovetails you'd be chopping, and chopping red oak on a 25 degree seems a bit risky. I'd be at 30….. even so, the steel should hold.

how do you sharpen? Could you have accidently de-tempered the steel when grinding??

Ben


----------



## tenontim (Feb 24, 2008)

I have a set of Narex that will do that occasionally. My old Marples don't do it very much, nor my Japanese chisels.
I work oak and hard maple all the time.


----------



## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

They cost $73 for a set of 5 and I know you can pay that much for just one good chisel but I'm still kind of disappointed. Oh well, live and learn.

Ben, I use sand paper to 3000. I can shave the hair on my arm but who cares when you can't do a dovetail without dulling the edge. I would rather do dovetails than shave my arms…


----------



## ShaneA (Apr 15, 2011)

Shoot Rob Lee a PM and see what he says…


----------



## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Shane, you know what…I'll do just that and then let you guys know his answer.

Better yet let's see if he monitors the best woodworking site on the web.


----------



## Loren (May 30, 2008)

I'd say the bevel is too acute for chopping oak.


----------



## BrandonW (Apr 27, 2010)

I would venture to guess this is why these weren't given the "Veritas" label. Still, for that price you probably would have expected a little more.


----------



## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

I can't speak for the Lee Valley chisels. Held em'...but have never used em'.

But, I've been abusing the hell out of a set of Veritas PM-V11's for the last two months and so far I'm pretty impressed with them. They seem to hold an edge really well with daily use(and abuse). I would say at LEAST twice as long, just as Lee Valley claims.
I found the handles a little on the small side, but Ive got big hands and long fingers(plus, just the change alone). It took about a week to get used to them and now I love them.

Just a thought if your looking to go a different route.

http://www.leevalley.com/en/Wood/page.aspx?p=69847&cat=1,41504


----------



## kokomoron (Feb 25, 2013)

I will bet Lee Valley will make it right


----------



## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Loren, I agree probably too acute. The edge seems to fold over when chopping. Works great when paring.


----------



## Benvolio (Feb 10, 2013)

`` I would rather do dovetails than shave my arms…``

quote of the day!


----------



## sikrap (Mar 15, 2009)

Yeah, 25 is too acute for chopping in oak. I would go to at least 30.


----------



## StumpyNubs (Sep 25, 2010)

I think those are considered their "lower end" chisels (although still a little pricey), but they shouldn't do that! I think they sometimes get a bad batch. I am quite sure they will replace them. They are a pretty good company. I'd give them the chance and then post a tool review about the results!


----------



## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

Just don't post this as a review, DKV. People will be up-in-arms with you for ruining the reputation of such a fine vendor. Yes, increase the bevel.

Still, everybody has their lemons….except maybe Incra.


----------



## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

I hate to refer to "the enemy" but here is a pretty good conversation on chopping and paring of dovetails. Thanks for all your help and comments…

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?158187-Preferred-bevel-for-paring-end-grain


----------



## Ripthorn (Mar 24, 2010)

I had a set of Narex chisels from Lee Valley that did this in doug fir. I sent them an email and they exchanged sets with me, no questions asked. The new set does not seem to suffer from this problem. My setup was a 25 degree primary with 30 degree secondary bevel.

As for Japanese chisels holding up so well, don't they use a ridiculously hard white steel for their cutting edges?


----------



## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

SMC had some interesting points, thanks for posting.


----------



## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Rip, the chisels I bought are marked "Made in Japan for Lee Valley".

I just sent an email to Lee Valley. Let's see how they handle the problem.


----------



## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Just received word back from Lee Valley. I was told to micro bevel my 25 degrees to approximately 28 degrees. I'll try that.

Another question: Looking at the picture below I would assume that if the cutting portion of the face is to the degrees I want then I don't have to bevel the whole face. Kind of tedious doing the entire face. The cutting edge of the chisel is at 25 degrees. I will add a micro bevel.


----------



## Loren (May 30, 2008)

Sometimes if not often the good part of the chisel is 1/4" 
or so back from the original edge. I have read this and
not really confirmed this but I can say that I have some
pretty decent chisels and aside from the Barr chisels, they
all chip.

There's a theory espoused by Toshio Odate that when
a new chisel chips in use, this is a good sign and means
the temper is good. There are ways to fix this with
Japan chisels by repeatedly pounding them into oak
(which locally heats the end) or leaving them out on 
a hot roof.

I've never tried either method, but I should because
my Japan chisels were not exactly cheap and the 
edges don't hold up as well as I now would expect, 
having experienced the resilience of the hand forged
Barrs.


----------



## tirebob (Aug 2, 2010)

"IMHO, Lee Valley is a tool clearing house.
Best to investigate the tools you buy from them."

That is one of the most ridiculous and idiotic statements I have ever read!!! These guys have never done anything but go above and beyond for their customers, and have some of the most premium tools available on the market today!

As for the edge retention, absolutely I would suggest a steeper angle for chopping in oak. Also, as was pointed out, sometimes you need to get a few sharpenings in before you get to the best part of the steel. I have premium Blue Spruce chisels and even a couple of those chipped up a little in the very beginning until they went through a few sharpenings. Now every single one holds an edge beautifully! No need to worry yet… Experiment a little bit and if it doesn't seem to clear up, let them know and they will more than likely help you out without issue…


----------



## TCCcabinetmaker (Dec 14, 2011)

There is a chapter in the book resotring, tuning and using classic woodworking tools by michael dunbar about re-hardening steel.

Traditionally speaking japanese steel is softer than american and some european steels, this means that while the steel may require more sharpening, it is easier to sharpen.


----------



## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Received this from Lee Valley.

Try increasing the main bevel angle to around 25-degrees to 28-degrees and then add a 2-degree micro-bevel to bring the cutting angle closer to 30-degrees. What this does is to increase the thickness of the cutting edge. The chisels do come with a 23-degree main bevel and a 25-degree micro-bevel.

I am playing with that suggestion now. More later…


----------



## Moai (Feb 9, 2009)

you know that Lee Valley is behind every of their products…..
Just put them back in the box/bag and send them back explaining the situation…
Full refund including original shipping will be credited for you


----------



## Purrmaster (Sep 1, 2012)

I agree that the Lee Valley people are good folks. But not all of their products are great. Let me clarify: Anything that has the Veritas label on it is almost certainly excellent and top notch. You can't go wrong with Veritas.

But the stuff they get from other suppliers can vary greatly in quality. They sell a lot of tools that are basically the same commodity tools everyone else sells.

Regardless, they'll usually take care of you even if the Veritas brand name isn't on the tool. I suspect if you ask if you can return them they will be more than happy to do so.


----------



## sikrap (Mar 15, 2009)

A- Lee Valley has unbelievable customer service and will make this right.

B- If the PRIMARY bevel is 23 degrees with a 2 degree microbevel, its no wonder they don't hold up in oak.


----------



## JGM0658 (Aug 16, 2011)

My dove tail Japanese chisels are beveled at 30º and even so they chip once in a while. The bench chisels do chip a bit but are ground at 25º. The question is not so much that they chip, but how fast they do this. My chisels chip after I have pounded the heck out of them, and it is probably my fault for not stopping sooner and sharpen.

If your chisels chip after the first hit, then return them, if on the other hand you have done a lot of dove tails and you start to see that the wood is starting to pull instead of being cut, then it is your fault and are just trying to cut with a dull blade.


----------



## lumberjoe (Mar 30, 2012)

I have the WoodRiver 6 piece set, primary bevel at 25 and micobevel at ~28. They chop through red oak pretty well. I hone them often, but they've only touched anything lower than an 8k stone twice in the 7 months since I bought them. I believe I paid about 55$


----------



## JohnChung (Sep 20, 2012)

DKV,

Post back the results of the new angle of the chisels.

Thanks,
John


----------



## tirebob (Aug 2, 2010)

Scotsman9 - Read it again… Idiotic still stands as the word of choice.


----------



## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Below is an excerpt from the Veritas MK II Honing Guide instructions. I think it answers my #22 post about how much of the face needs to be beveled to the desired angle.

Roll the guide and blade back and forth on the abrasive surface until a satisfactory bevel is formed, ensuring that any downward force is applied mainly to the edge of the blade. Since the roller maintains the angle, it should be in contact with the stone at all times. If the roller is lifted off the stone, the very edge of the blade will have a higher bevel angle than the one selected. *The primary bevel should extend at least 1/8" back from the edge.*

And all this time I've been changing the entire face when changing angles. A lot of extra work.

JohnChung, I experiment today. Results later…


----------



## 12strings (Nov 15, 2011)

I'm impressed that you guys actually know the bevel angles on your chisels…I generally go by "That looks about right…!"


----------



## JohnChung (Sep 20, 2012)

Steeper angle offers better edge retention BUT at the cost of using more energy during paring or mortising. Slicing wood fibres cleanly would be difficult too. So best we use the lowest angle we can get away with.


----------



## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Just finished doing dovetails in red oak with the Lee Valley recommended bevels and it went pretty well. I have primary 25 and a secondary 27-28 bevels. Chopping and paring went well with only very slight edge chipping. The chipping I got was very easily removed with a piece of 3000 grit sandpaper. Since I don't do a lot of dovetails I am satisfied with the chisels. If I was doing dovetails on a consistent basis I would buy some chisels designed specifically for dovetailing at probably ten times my current cost. Bottom line, I'm happy. Thanks to all that commented…


----------



## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

I now want a dovetail chisel to clean up the corners. I'm going to make one. Show you guys the results later.


----------

