# How to ask the question "More Money"



## Cornductor (Feb 5, 2011)

When building custom items small to large we run into various situations. Well this one of them. I'm building a custom natural slab kitchen table for a customer and have run into more unforeseen changes then expected. These changes were not based on customer but of a more in depth build. In depth to the point of when giving an estimate the twist of wood slab was not seen and and have had to trouble shoot numerous problems.

How and when do you ask the client for more money?


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

If it's not the customers fault, then you don't.
It's your job to know these things, that's why the customer hired you.
Best you can do is give back any deposit and keep the slab and tarnish your reputation, 
Or, *pull thru and finish the job and take the loss *and call it a school lesson but your reputation is in tact.

I have had many a school lesson and some weren't cheap.

Just My Opinion


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## Cornductor (Feb 5, 2011)

Ill pull thru and eventually take a loss. Just curious if others have had similar situations.


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## ste6168 (Mar 12, 2015)

I don't own a woodworking business, so I will put it in another perspective.

Say, I hypothetically hired a roofer to put a roof on my house, he quoted me XX amount, but once he got started, realized he didn't buy enough shingles, or didn't factor in the 5 dormers we have on my roof. If he came back to me, and asked for more money. I wouldn't be very happy, nor would I plan to give him more money.

Alternatively, if he gave me a quote for 3-tab shingles, and halfway through the job, I decided that I would prefer to go with a metal roof, I would expect the cost to increase, and have to re-work the numbers. I wouldn't expect him to just pick up the cost difference.


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## bondogaposis (Dec 18, 2011)

How and when do you ask the client for more money?

I don't think you can. It was your inexperience or lack of observation that lead you to making a an estimate that was too low. Chalk it up to a hard lesson learned. Education is expensive. Perhaps the good will that you generate with this customer will lead to more work. Raising the price will after the fact will work against you in the long run.


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## Cornductor (Feb 5, 2011)

@ste6168 lets say half way thru the re roof he found rot in the plywood. This is a unforeseeable problem what does he do that's fair?
As with the table cutting down a 4×16x3" slab into a 4×8x3" slab the unforeseeable came about. It twisted and if the twist was there I didn't notice it.


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## ChrisK (Dec 18, 2009)

When the roofer did my house he had in his quote to cost to replace a sheet of bad plywood. I to have had a few costly lessons. I hope the cost is more in time and frustration and not wasted material.


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## jmartel (Jul 6, 2012)

> @ste6168 lets say half way thru the re roof he found rot in the plywood. This is a unforeseeable problem what does he do that s fair?
> As with the table cutting down a 4×16x3" slab into a 4×8x3" slab the unforeseeable came about. It twisted and if the twist was there I didn t notice it.
> 
> - Cornductor


Your example you eat the costs. That's material that you selected and paid for so it's your problem. The rotted plywood is different and would be on the customer because the contractor didn't supply it. If it's just one piece of ply, most roofers would eat that cost anyway.


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

Unforeseeable?
Let me just ask.
Did you warn your client that it could twist when you cut it?
Will you warn the next client?

Based on your new experience, it is now foreseeable and as an experienced woodworker selling a product, it was your responsibility to know.


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## ADHDan (Aug 17, 2012)

Going forward, you and your customer could allocate the risk of potential setbacks (especially arguably "blameless" setbacks, like an unseen twist) up-front, by making the quote subject to assumptions and requirements. To be belt-and-suspenders, I suppose you could try to issue-spot and list a wide range of potential setbacks, or get the customer to agree to a broad, non-exhaustive clause. Then, you could negotiate price accordingly - charging more if you take on more risk, and less if you take on less risk (i.e., are allowed to increase price if setbacks occur).

For example, in your scenario, you could have chosen (or let the customer choose) between including "no hidden defects in slabs" as an assumption for a lower up-front price, or excluding it but charging a higher price.

Admittedly, I base this entirely on my "day job" experience as an attorney, outside of the woodworking world; I don't know what sorts of terms and conditions are typically standard/variable in contracts for professional woodwork. But it seems just as sensible for woodworking as it does (e.g.) for roofing, per Chris K's example.


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## clin (Sep 3, 2015)

On custom work, you seldom nail the quote or estimate. With experience you will get closer. But part of it is padding the estimate some. There are almost always unexpected events.

The other factor is when doing enough jobs, some will go over budget and you absorb that. Others will come in under. If you do it right, over time they'll average out.

And don't go thinking if the job was easier than you thought, that this means you somehow ripped off the customer. On fixed price contracts, you are taking all the cost risk. They aren't going to pay you more when you underbid, so no reason to feel bad if you overbid.


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## ArtMann (Mar 1, 2016)

I have built all kinds of projects over the years that were unprofitable and in a few cases, cost me more in materials than I was getting paid. I remember one project in which i was hired to construct 4 forteen inch diameter, 16 foot long fluted columns for a 2 story porch. I worked on it for weeks and barely got enough money to pay for materials. It is not the customers fault that I was ignorant or misjudged a situation. Nowadays, if there is any doubt about the cost of a project with too many unknowns, I will tell the customer in writing that it is just an estimate and he might have to pay more. With such an agreement, I would consider charging the customer less if the job turned out to be simpler than I thought. If I give someone a firm, fixed price, I believe it is my moral obligation to do the job at the quoted price. I recall one instance in which the customer realized what was going on and paid me more than I asked for.


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## JBrow (Nov 18, 2015)

Cornductor,

I do woodworking only as a hobby so I am not commenting as a pro. Additionally I may be old school since I try to do what is right, whether when doing something for someone or being someone's customer.

I think just asking for more money would be ok, unless you have priced the project so that you will still make money in spite of the problems or you are asking the customer to pay for your mistakes, like cutting a board too short. If the customer says no, you are only worse off if you somehow frustrate or anger the customer. If the customer is a couple, having both present when asking is probably best.

Whether you get more money and/or anger the customer will largely depend on your people skills; that is what you say and how you say it. It is also a conversation best had in person, since most communication is through body language. Showing progress made on the project can reveal to the customer that the project is coming together, almost done, or whatever. Since you are building something with natural materials, the customer may understand the added cost. If the customer is old school, they may agree to pay more, especially: if they see the project taking shape and can picture a completed table in their kitchen, if you are only asking for the cost of replacing the bad behaving lumber, and you are providing the labor to remake the part. But then asking for more money on a table that already is costing several times more than a table available in the furniture stores or one that missed the estimated delivery date can serve to anger the customer and make matters worse.

No matter what you elect to do, avoiding these types of discussions are obviously best. Reviewing the pricing model and maybe the business model being followed could help avoid these unpleasant circumstances. I have no idea the value of custom furniture or other things made of wood, but it seems to me that one of a kind, handcrafted, well-made things of wood command a premium whose value is difficult to access. I have difficulty seeing how many standard pricing models, such as firm fixed pricing, time & material or even cost-plus work very well for the customer and/or the business when selling custom work using natural materials.


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## JAAune (Jan 22, 2012)

Start working overtime to minimize the loss. It is possible to request additional funds and I've heard of people doing this. It worked out okay for one of them and the second guy got his money but also landed on the client's blacklist thus ensuring he didn't get repeat work.

I've had one commission turn into a total money loser. It hurt to lose 6 weeks plus a couple thousand dollars but it wasn't the client's fault I gave them the wrong price. I'd have asked for extra money if they had altered the project after signing the contract but that wasn't the case.


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## bruc101 (Sep 13, 2008)

About 10 years ago I built a lady a very large Country French kitchen. When we were doing the deal I went through the usual "if's" with her once I got started building her new kitchen. Usually when a shop prices a kitchen they should already know their expenses on the project and any overages are because a customer's change request.

The kitchen was to be painted white and I had two coats of the white paint already on the kitchen. She came in one day told me I think I want to change the color of my cabinets to this green and showed me the color.

I asked her, do you remember when we were doing the deal on your kitchen, I told you that if you decided to change the colors on your cabinets after I've already started painting them, then to change the colors would be 1/2 the total price of the cabinets. She looked at me and said I remember and I sure do like my white cabinets.

As others have stated, I've had to eat things that went wrong and I lost money but I didn't ask for more money from the customer and I finished the project. This is what I do and have done in the past and will continue to do.

When you're dealing with wood, especially a slab, Murphy's law can really bite a woodworker on the butt and you need to always try and have your butt covered before you agree on a price.


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## Neilswoodcraft (Apr 18, 2016)

Ultimately I would eat the cost an get the job done. What I agreeded upon with the customer in the first place is what I will finish for that said amount. If the customer changes plans it's a different story. I will keep my word to complete work I agree to even if I loose money. I would deffintily use it as a learning experience thoe.


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## ste6168 (Mar 12, 2015)

> @ste6168 lets say half way thru the re roof he found rot in the plywood. This is a unforeseeable problem what does he do that s fair?
> As with the table cutting down a 4×16x3" slab into a 4×8x3" slab the unforeseeable came about. It twisted and if the twist was there I didn t notice it.
> 
> - Cornductor
> ...


Correct. Most roofers have a clause in their quote that states 1 or 2, maybe 3 sheets will be replaced at cost on quote, any more than that and the cost of the plywood is extended onto the customer. I am sure that roofers understand what their dealing with, and if the roof is fully rotted, tear-down condition, they will quote the job accordingly.

I am not a roofer, I just happened to hire one once.


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## dhazelton (Feb 11, 2012)

When you say you will 'take the loss' do you men in time or materials? If you powered through and worked out the issues with the slab then you aren't out any money and your time fixing it was educational and you shouldn't charge them for that. If you had to buy a new slab at least you still have the old one and can probably cut re-glue it or use it for something else.


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## albachippie (Feb 2, 2010)

I think your signature says it all! You have invested in new knowledge. Use it wisely, take the hit, finish the project, and move on. Next time be more aware of the potential pitfalls. I think sometimes we as woodworkers must be gluttons for punishment! We work with materials that remain alive, so, to a certain extent, are unpredictable. To add to that, we have a tendency to way underestimate our costs, both in time and materials, and to top it all off, we do it all by choice. It is the most rewarding vocation of all when it goes well. But, occasionally it doesn't go so well.

As has been said by others, your client hired your knowledge and skill, so really you can't ask for more money, unless the contract has been changed. It's the hard truth I'm afraid.

Garry


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

At one time, I had a small sharpening business. I was learning on the job and messed up a few saw blades. I replaced the ruined blades with new blades and ate the loss. That is what any reputable person would do. Repeat business is what it's all about.


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

Being in commercial construction as an estimator / project manager for the last 15 years id say youre entitled to a small change for cutting the pieces down and refinishing the end grain. Getting the twist out is on you though.

That's like when we have to cut concrete. If I put in my proposal cut 6-8" of concrete and its 12" i'll get paid for having to use a different machine with a bigger blade but if its full of rebar and mesh, making cutting a real pain, that's on me. I couldn't see it but in some ways I should have expected it was there.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

All of us who have any time contracting jobs have eaten some or all of a job. The only time I was able to raise my price was if it was established, up front and in writing, that unforeseen dry rot issue, electrical line or plumbing run in the way, or whatever, would add to the cost.

If someone hires me to build a live edge table, it's because I'm a magician and know EVERYTHING about every piece of wood in the world [unfortunately, that is one piece of wood at a time and, often, after the fact], while they, of course, don't.

Another example might be the benefit, to everyone, of talking about the type of joints, and the why's and wherefore's of each one, up front, rather than taking the job, then deciding to improve the quality because you do have pride in your work.

Anyway, in the end, that's where the art of bid comes into play - upping prices, either the one I'm just taking on or all of them, to account for the unexpected or unknowable.


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## mako1 (Mar 23, 2016)

You've heard some good advice above.It's your problem.Eat it and chalk it up to a learning experience.Your inexperience of bidding the job is not the customers problem.Trying to raise the price will give you a bad rep and a pissed off customer and put you out of business before you get started.
The roofing anology is a bad one.You never know what you my run into when remodeling and I have a written contract explaining these things in my remodeling business.
Your building a new piece from scratch and the customer is depending on you to have the knowledge of the material and work your doing.


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## Ocelot (Mar 6, 2011)

I used to work for a company which was one of the pioneers in CAD (computer aided design). Very early in the growth of the company, our company president was trying to sell a computer mapping system to a mid-sized city government's mapping department. They were hesitant to buy, saying "what do we do with all the old paper maps? We'll have to keep using them too, so it won't do us any good." Our president, off the top of his head, told them that we would digitize their old maps for some fixed price (I think $50) per map. There were thousands of them. I understand that we lost $200,000 on that job at a time when the company really could not afford such a loss, but we did it. They had to hire several people working 3 shifts to digitize those maps in a timely way. And our reputation exploded. At the peak, I think we had sold mapping software to 40 of the 50 state DOTs. We had a reputation for doing what we promised to do.

So, to maximise the value of this situation, tell your customer about it. Make sure they understand that you are sticking by your price even though you lose money. In the long run, it may pay off.

-Paul


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## Ocelot (Mar 6, 2011)

... and you might consider in the future narrowing your focus to jobs that you have done before and that you are sure you can profit from. The company that built my shop was extremely efficient in building shops and garages. I asked the man if they also built houses. He answered that every time he had built more house-like things he had lost money. He knew that he could always make money building garages, so that's what he specializes in. If you want a living space above the garage, his crew will fame it out and leave it for somebody else to finish. They don't even do electrical, although they recommend an electrician who often wires garages they build. They do what they do and they do it very well and profitably.

-Paul


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## Cornductor (Feb 5, 2011)

I have humbly read the comments above and have understood the unanimous answer. I had a feeling of this all along yet I wanted to pick the ear of others and see what they would have done. It's an overwhelming response of chock it up to inexperience and take it as a lesson learned.

Yes my experience is of 7 years and is not of Norm Abram nor is it of Sam Maloof however I strive with all my mistakes and move forward and learn some good and bad lessons. This is was my first time working with such a big slab of redwood and or any type of material this big and heavy. This was also the customers slab and I said yes to the request and I will pro veil thru the hardship with my head held high and humbly take a knee when the time comes of taking my losses.

Thank you all for the wisdom and comments some with great guidance and others with a slice of the words.


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## sawdust703 (Jul 6, 2014)

Anytime you're working with rough cut lumber, regardless of the situation, it has a mind of its own, & needs to be taken care of. Customer furnished or not, part of woodworking is having the knowledge & experience to deal with just a situation as you're in. The first thing you should've explained to your customer in bidding the job, was the fact that you're working with a live material, & it will twist & cup. Make suggestions of ways to fix it, time involved, & costs involved. Also suggest purchasing extra lumber in the beginning to cover your ass if something goes awry. Remember, the customer is coming to you because of your ability to do the job the way they want it done, not how you want it done. And once you agree on a set price for your work, its cut & dried. Eat the cost of the repairs, save your reputation, & be honest about the situation. Write it off as education, & be careful next time. Just from experience.


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## bigblockyeti (Sep 9, 2013)

You got a chance to learn from your mistake, that in and of itself is worth a little though no one ever sees it that way when it happens to them. Any time I try something new, I like to do as much research as possible before beginning, it's always less expensive to learn from other's mistakes than your own.


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## dhazelton (Feb 11, 2012)

I think next time you work with material a client provides you need to give yourself a cushion for improper drying or storage or even a random nail. You have no idea how the wood was stored before you got it nor should you have to pay for damaged knives. You learned, you move on.


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