# Kerfing Plane/Saw



## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I have been unable to reach either Blackburn Tools or Bad Axe tools. So I am going to make my own kerning plane/saw. I think I can improve on the designs I have seem from others.

How about:

1. Adjustable depth of cut via thumb screw
2. Adjustable angle of attack
3. Spring tensioned blade that retracts into the body of the plane
4. Adjustable spring tension
5. Replaceable blade
6. No fence, or one, or two adjustable fence
7. A plexiglass window to see the inside of the plane
8. Markings on the window to indicate depth and angle

I could:

a. Set the depth of cut to 1/2" 
b. Lift the nose of the blade to make it easier to enter the wood and prevent clogging
c. Push the plane and fence flat against the wood, compressing the internal springs causing the blade to retract into the bode of the plane while it is stationary

And as I push the plane, the blade automatically descends into the wood until it reaches the full 1/2" depth when it no longer takes a cut.

Also, if I have two fences, I can just sandwich the board which would make kerfing the end end grain on narrow boards easier.

What do you think?


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## DavePolaschek (Oct 21, 2016)

I think it sounds over-designed which sounds perfect for you. I find that my most common use case is splitting a 3/4 board into two 3/8 (or 1/4) pieces, and next most common is turning 4/4 into three 1/4 pieces. So I made a fixed fence at 3/8, and if I'm looking to get three pieces from a 4/4 board, I'll tack a piece of 1/16 ash veneer to the fence to make it 5/16, which is close enough to 1/3 for most of my work.

The cheap Great Neck saws on Amazon work fairly well as kerfing plane blades. They're induction hardened, so not resharpenable, but they're cheap enough that that doesn't bother me, and they'll still work fine even with half the teeth sheared off. Cutting a saw plate is hard work, but with the induction-hardened saws, it's only the toothy bit that's super-hard, and the bulk of the saw plate isn't too bad. Expect to use up a hacksaw blade, though.

Or if you're just looking for a saw plate, Erik at Florip Toolworks may be able to set you up. He's a great guy, and sells saw plates so it's not a crazy request for him. I think he'll sell you saw nuts too, if you need.

Good luck on the build!


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Dunno what saw nuts are. Let me go google that real quick. I've seen most people cut the plate with tin snips. I picked up a cheap Stanley finishing saw at 10-11 TPI with trip-point teeth that looked like it might be a good fit (was under $15). Looks like only the teeth are hardened.

You may be right that it's way over kill. Like trying to use a combination plane instead of a moulding plane to produce the same decorative edge. Moulding plane is just "pick it up and go" while the combination plane requires being set up first and you may want to leave it in that combination requiring you to own multiple combination planes anyways.

My immediate needs are that I need to be able to rip lumber as close to 27/32" and 3/8" as possible-those are the two sizes I most commonly need (right now).

I of course usually rip to width with some room to spare and plane the rest of the way. So I'm usually ripping to 1/16" or 1/8" over the desired width right now *without* a kerfing plane because of the dreaded dishing-out of the center when a cut veers off-line.

The kerfing plane will allow me to saw much closer to my desired width and spend less time planing to get the board I need.

However, watching a lot of videos of YouTube, almost everybody I watch (except Tom Fidgen) looks like they are having a hard time controlling the plane. When they push the plane through the wood, it rears up, skips, and tilts.

On one occasion in one video from Tom Fidgen, I saw it rear up on him, so not even he was immune to the issues that I see.

I thought to myself "why is it rearing up on them?" and "can we eliminate that?"

I think if a push saw is used and the nose is raised or if a pull saw is used and the heel is raised, then it would work more like an actual saw.

One video demonstrated how the kerf becomes clogged and how to unclog it by pushing through it. I think that too could be solved by an angled attack.

The problem for me isn't in deciding that it would be a good idea to angle of attack by rotating the blade in the body of the plane, but how much to do so. That's where the adjustable depth comes into play (angle of attack being simply the adjustment of two different depths for rear versus front of the plate).


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## drsurfrat (Aug 17, 2020)

A good design challenge. You may want to remember that it is traditionally only for ripping, so a combo or crosscut tooth will be inefficient (and clog easier).

"I've seen most people cut the plate with tin snips." If the plate is hardened, that won't happen. I had to grind a groove and snap the steel. I think Lazyman Nathan had a similar experience.

Enjoy the build, and design, and experience.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

My kerfing plane is an old wooden plow plane that somebody (long ago) made a body for and screwed part of a saw plate to. Its crude, kind of cool looking frankenplane, and works PERFECTLY! Have only ever needed the one fence as I am usually splitting 3/4 or trying to to take off an 1/8" for veneer. No need for anything fancy to cut a saw kerf lol!

Also, cutting saw plates with snips tends to bend the metal. I prefer to lay it one some scrap wood and use a grinder with cutoff wheel to cut through, leaving the plate straight.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

OK, so you think perhaps most people are choosing the wrong kind of saw tooth configuration for their plane and that's why they are (in their videos on YouTube) having such a poor performance? I can see that.

I am contemplating just using this blade and not cutting it (just putting holes in it down the center) which would allow me to flip the blade over if I needed to make a kerf across the grain.

I saw someone using their kerfing plane for something other than resawing, where they used it to make the kerf for a rip cut to rip their board to width (not thickness). I thought this was interesting, and-as expected-they reported that it didn't work too well when they had to make the kerf cutting across the grain.

However, sticking that big blade in a plane would make a pretty tall plane (which would be prone to tipping). So not my first choice-which would be to simply cut the blade in 2 places to make 2 plates (jettisoning the center of the blade).

I want to make kerfs for my saw which is the same saw as the above-linked blade. That may be less than ideal because I have heard some folks say that the best resaw is when the kerf is slightly undersized for the saw. But what saw is thinner than a Vaughan Ryoba-style Bear saw which I measured at 1/32" thin


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I found these blades which seem like they would fit the bill.

The kerf on these 0.023" thick blades is 0.031", which is just slightly undersized for 1/32" thin Ryoba blade.

Plus, I don't think I would have to cut those blades. I could probably use them as-is.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

I guess if you want it to work on the pull stroke then those should work. No need to overcomplicate the act of cutting a straight line, lmao!


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## rad457 (Jun 15, 2013)

Maybe check with local saw shops, the one I get the band saw blades made at has every type of blade you could require and they gave me some cut off scraps for the bow saw I made plus had enough left over for a small Kerf saw when and if I ever get around to making one? My thought plan was to make a removable blade cartridge with the blade position being the thickness gauge? Blades would be replaceable. held in by 2 brass pins, same as my Bow Saw.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Despite my elaborate plans (which I sometimes pull off-when there is good reason), I do often take the easiest way out until there is no other choice but to do the complicated solution.

It just occurred to me how I can avoid having to make a kerfing plane/saw for a little while.

1. Secure the wood you need to resaw
2. Take a piece of wood that is as-wide as the saw blade but not as-long
3. Clamp a similar-length but wider piece of wood to the above
4. Clamp the assembly to the wood you need to resaw
5. Holding the saw with one hand and with your other hand on the blade
6. Use a flush-cutting motion against the make-shift fence to create the kerf

It's just slightly more sophisticated than what I did here

Where I use a random cutoff of Bocote (that I knew to be flat and have square sides) to guide the start of a cut at the corners. Instead of just chucking that little block back onto the shelf after starting my cut, I'm thinking why not just clamp a fence to it and then clamp that to the board and move it all around as I cut a kerf line before starting the resaw?


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Afraid my "kerfing saw" is just that….I run the wood through the tablesaw, doing all 4 edges….Then the D8 rip saw can take over…..BTDTGTTS…..


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

The making of a kerf cut..









Blade is centered, and raised most of the way up..









D8 about 1/2 way down..









Needed a bit more room….









Needs a little plane work..









maybe?


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> Despite my elaborate plans (which I sometimes pull off-when there is good reason), I do often take the easiest way out until there is no other choice but to do the complicated solution.
> 
> It just occurred to me how I can avoid having to make a kerfing plane/saw for a little while.
> 
> ...


I can't remember who it was, but one of the old timers showed how most old time makers resawed. The ones who actually built stuff and didn't have time to make fancy tools. He showed they just clamped a straight piece of wood to the board next to the cut line and ran their panel saw next to this clamped on "fence", using your left hand on top of the saw plate.

If you get as good as Paul Sellers you just do the angle and flip method and done.

If you want it to just be about the "cool tools", no shame in that either.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

ive seen what devin can do and there is no doubt in my mind she can make one hell of a nice kerf saw that many will envy.go girl.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

The thought of planing a board to width, not once but twice (once for 27/32 and again for 3/8) just to keep them around and not accidentally use them for some project is too menacing of a thought.

So I've changed my mind. I *am* going to make a kerfing plane, however I am going to keep it simple.

To side-step a lot of problems, such as producing the wrong size kerf for the resaw blade, I figured I would just inlay the resaw blade into a piece of wood with a brace.

I took the blade off of my Ryoba-style Vaughan Bear Saw

That hang-hole at the toe-end of the blade is just perfect for me to route a stantion to fit inside the hang-hole to limit its movement. Then I just contour the back-end of the blade that goes into the handle and incorporate that into the inlay as a raised area to further limit movement. Then all I need is a bracket to go over the length of the blade to keep it secure in the inlay relief.

I am thinking what I do is put a threaded insert into the hang-hole stantion that will allow me to put a socket cap machine screw into a counter-bored hole in the brace to secure the brace over the hang-hole. Then another threaded insert in the large round portion of the rear stantion to which there will be another socket screw securing the other end of the brace running the length of the blade.

The brace board would be large enough to cover the top teeth of the blade for safety. The brace board would have reliefs cut for the stations so that it can make full contact with the blade, so that when the socket cap screws are tightened they pull the brace into the inlay to mate with the saw plate.

The idea of being able to pull the blade out of my saw with a simple twist of a plastic knob, mount it in the carcass of a kerfing plane designed for it, make the kerfs, pull the blade out, put the handle back on, and perform the resaw, ... is rather exciting to me because it uses the resaw blade to do the kerfing.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

I'll add to this in case it helps, I don't know if the guy that made my kerfing plane did this on purpose or not but he made it where the body is higher on the leading edge than the trailing edge, just a bit. But i find this helps it to not get the bucking action you see in some videos. The angle of attack lets it ease into the cut rather than all at once. hopefully this pic rotates the right way:


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

devin and simple,i just dont know if thats possible ? something tells me it will start out that way then go over the top-lol. but sometimes simple is all you need.


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## BlasterStumps (Mar 13, 2017)

Devin, I think making yourself a kerfing plane is a great idea. Hope you keep us updated on what you come up with. I made one and found it to be a lot of fun to make and use.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

SMP, I do believe it was intentional. I've seen it on an antique stair saw. It allows one to get a portion of the blade into the kerf before the blades start cutting, allowing you to build some speed before the blade engages while also allowing you to get some positive runway for the fence before engaging. I think this makes for a faster job end-to-end and it was likely done by someone that knew how saws work best.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> SMP, I do believe it was intentional. I ve seen it on an antique stair saw. It allows one to get a portion of the blade into the kerf before the blades start cutting, allowing you to build some speed before the blade engages while also allowing you to get some positive runway for the fence before engaging. I think this makes for a faster job end-to-end and it was likely done by someone that knew how saws work best.
> 
> - DevinT


yeah when I first got it I thought he may have been a hack, but when i went to use it, I thought "this is actually pretty nice", kind of like a progressive tooth on a saw like Paul Sellers shows how to file. Or if you've ever used one of Kevin Drakes DT saws, those are pretty sweet too. Kevin showed me how to use it, and I got the hang of it after a few minutes, but I just did not like the handles.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

That's not unlike how the Jointmaker Pro operates (although at a much higher cost).


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> That s not unlike how the Jointmaker Pro operates (although at a much higher cost).
> 
> - Rich


damn rich you made me curious about it,had to look should not have.i have a couple bc tools,high quality.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> damn rich you made me curious about it,had to look should not have.i have a couple bc tools,high quality.
> 
> - pottz


I figure when I wind up in an old folks home years from now, I'll buy one. Heck, with that baby I could be dovetailing all night without waking up Ethel next door.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> That s not unlike how the Jointmaker Pro operates (although at a much higher cost).
> 
> - Rich
> 
> ...


Leave it to them to take the motor out of a table saw, make you do the work and charge you double! LMAO!


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> I figure when I wind up in an old folks home years from now, I ll buy one. Heck, with that baby I could be dovetailing all night without waking up Ethel next door.
> 
> - Rich


You keep on shoutin'

I….wanna cut dovetails all niiiiiiight
and chop mortises every day


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I've had my eye on the JMP for a while. If I hadn't the shop space for it, I would totally get one.

Now, the thing I cannot figure out is si car I am using a Ryoba blade, should I angle the blade backwards with the heel higher than the toe? You know, since it cuts on the pull stroke instead of the push; though I find it starts quite nicely on the push stroke until you get about 1/8" deep then you can start pulling and really hogging out material.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

So, I pulled out a couple pieces of Afrormosia (African Teak) to play around with, just to get an idea of how it might look.

Aside: these pieces are too small if I want to incorporate a handle. Not sure if I want a handle or if I want a saw handle or a pull-style handle or two handles like an antique stair saw.




























Though, looking at the pictures now and thinking about it, thinking now about angling it the opposite way. Thoughts?


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Also, luck would have it, a Roubo-style frame saw just appeared on eBay and I am beside myself. $45 but $210 shipping, what?!


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> So, I pulled out a couple pieces of Afrormosia (African Teak) to play around with, just to get an idea of how it might look.
> 
> Aside: these pieces are too small if I want to incorporate a handle. Not sure if I want a handle or if I want a saw handle or a pull-style handle or two handles like an antique stair saw.
> 
> ...


I would angle it opposite, that way when you push trigger #5 it angles the blade a bit more so you can use that last cleanout tooth on the end to clean the kerf out how you traditionally would when using a ryoba.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

SMP, thanks. I think that's just what I will do.

In other news, I found this Black Swan Kerfing Plane LumberJocks project from March 2018. Absolutely stunningly beautiful.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Was thinking about what to do for the rods on the adjustable fence and was thinking about (as always) doing something different.

Carbon fiber tubing.

It looks like to be stronger than most metals, lighter, and you can work it with a hacksaw and bench sander just like aluminum or brass.

Just toying with ideas for the moment. Thinking ahead-right now still working on the carcass.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

It doesn't make sense to me to angle the blade. I would think it would be easier to use if the blade lies flat relative to both the sole and fence. It seems to me that only the deepest tooth will be cutting an any given time, sort of like trying to cut a kerf with a marking gauge. Even if you start the cut with all teeth engaged, as you get deeper into the grove, fewer and fewer teeth will be cutting until at the maximum depth, only the lowest tooth will be cutting and you will have to slide that tooth from end to end.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> It doesn t make sense to me to angle the blade. I would think it would be easier to use if the blade lies flat relative to both the sole and fence.
> 
> - Lazyman


+1. If you look at photo #2 from the swan plane project linked above, the lead edge of the blade is angled to prevent the teeth from digging in and stalling. Same concept as the anti-kickback designs on some circular saw blades and router bits.


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## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

One caution to keep in mind is that the blade must cut perfectly parallel to the reference face and the reference face must be truly flat. Since you're using a kerfing plane instead of a marking gauge or similar, you're basically piloting your cut. So your saw is going to follow that pilot. In order for this to all lead to a successful resaw, all 4 pilot kerfs have to be in the same plane. If not, then the saw is going to follow the pilot that is most influential at any given time. So, if your kerfs are off by even a fraction of a degree, you're going to have real problems getting a straight and flat cut.

I think this is probably the reason you don't see much adjustability in the fences and depths of most kerfing planes - rigidity is paramount to function.

I say all this not to discourage the persuit of a more versatile kerfing plane but rather to aid in it on the front end (and from the sidelines)


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> Was thinking about what to do for the rods on the adjustable fence and was thinking about (as always) doing something different.
> 
> Carbon fiber tubing.
> 
> ...


I would shy away from carbon fiber tubing. It got really popular in the mountain biking world 20-30 years ago due to the reasons you listed. However once it gets a "ding" it loses a LOT of its strength and other qualities. All well and good if you are a sponsored rider getting paid to use a bike, but not so good if you are paying thousands out of pocket for a bike. And whatever clamping mechanism you design will essentially "ding" or crush the surface.
https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-gear/bikes-and-biking/carbon-fiber-bike-accidents-lawsuits/


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

SMP, Very very good points. Thank you!


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Ken, very good point. That makes an argument for a non-adjustable but replaceable fence. I have less concerns with making a tool that requires two fences than I do with just making two blocks of wood that are "the correct thickness" because at least the tool fences wouldn't be mistaken for some wood and get used for a project (leading to a huge "oh sh$!" moment as it slowly sinks in that you essentially shot yourself in the foot, hard).

Though I can't imagine that the Black Swan kerfing plane has much issues with rigidity, though I do cast suspicion onto its ability to keep the fence co-planer with the blade (as I suspect you also would say).


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

OK, now for the fun part.

I spent the past few hours doing thought experiments where I freeze-frame a saw in the middle of a cut approaching a step in the valley of the kerf, and what would happen in the split seconds that follow hitting the step and pushing further by merely one single tooth-length. This allowed me to analyze the input-vs-output-vs-effort of a raised-toe blade vs blade with zero changes in angle. The results surprised me.

In fact, the results are shockingly obvious to me after I spent a few more hours to create these diagrams to illustrate what my thought experiment produced:




























The gist of it is, that when you encounter something to cut, the saw will lift. The amount of that lift is determined by the delta fo where you are and where you will be. The amount of effort is a measure of total distance traveled, versus input distance traversed, versus linear distance actually cut.

Light green is the input distance (the distance of one tooth).
Magenta and dark green are actual distances traveled
Cyan and dark green are linear distances traveled
Red is change in angle (how high the plane bucks when it hits a step)
Yellow is the height of the step you hit

It's a no-brainer really based on this analysis. If the teeth are all on the same plane, the front of the plane will buck higher and multiple times. If the first teeth to enter the cut are higher, then bucking is tremendously eased.

Thoughts?


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## MikeB_UK (Jul 27, 2015)

That only works on the assumption you are cutting into a ledge though Devin - in practice you will be cutting on a flat surface going deeper with each cut.
If you angle the teeth then after the first couple of passes only the back teeth will be cutting (if the plane is held level).

If you go with an adjustable fence - nick one of the designs they use on a bridal plough plane if Kenny is right and the skate needs to be exact - I think it will be easier to set because you have the full length of the plate to reference to so you'll be OK with a simpler fence though.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

Hmm. I am trying to envision a scenario where a kerfing plane would be used like that and for any times where you do have any sort of hump to overcome it would be better to have a ramp in front and possibly behind the blade to lift the tooth as with the Blackburn blade.










If you change your drawing so that it doesn't have the hump, your drawing will show you that only the back teeth may be cutting when you get close to full depth. E That means that it will take longer to finish the cut than a blade with uniform depth.

EDIT to add: Assuming that the front tooth just barely sticks out of the sole, each pass will involve fewer teeth.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

well, higher is fine. But don't forget that the "aggressiveness" of teeth factor in too. Like how a progressive tooth sawblade just has less aggressive teeth at the toe end and gradually get more aggressive.

I think a combination of slightly higher and have the first inch less aggressive would be good.

you could also consider smaller angled holes aligned with deep gullets in the blade. think of the old wooden rabbet planes that have the hole designed to offload shavings. basically a dust chute angled to push sawdust out of angled holes as you push it along. kind of like the old hot rods that had those exhaust pipes angled out the sides.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

*MikeB_UK*:

I thought about that and that would only apply if you are able to make a full pass with each stroke. That may be true when you are working the end-grain but length-wise is less likely to be true.

I also observe YouTube creators pulling the plane back, taking a step forward, repeating the cut going a little further, and repeating until they reach the end of the board length. Unlike how one might edge-joint a board with a hand plane, wherein you are shuffling your feet mid-cut to continue the stroke to the end of the board for each pass-that's simply not how I see people using their kerfing planes/saws.

I simply don't see anybody doing the mid-stroke foot shuffle to push a kerfing plane/saw the entire length of the board for each pass. Which leads me to conceptualize that the valley of the kerf has a step in it as you advance the cut on each stroke to complete a pass.

Also, I am banking on the fact that when the final depth has not yet been reached, the user will simply drop the entire blade into the kerf which means that the angle won't come into play until the end of the kerf cutting. By then the back teeth will be doing most of the cutting and on my Ryoba those are gradated and should produce a nice smooth bottom to the kerf.

I will look into a bridal plough plane, but that introduces the problem that the kerf produced by the plane won't be sized correctly for the saw.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

*Lazyman*, *SMP*,

Hmmm, good points (no pun intended).

And I had not considered that it would cut slower toward the end as I reached full depth (which is of course where the angled blade would make the most difference-considering before full-depth nothing prevents the user from setting all the teeth onto the surface or into the kerf.

This is of course doubly-true considering that the back teeth on the Ryoba are finer and less aggressive than the ones at the toe (opposite of a progressive Western saw which has the less aggressive teeth at the front).

I am slowly coming to the realization that the blade design as it stands is already fine for full tooth engagement because it already has a builtin toe-ramp and heel swale.


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## MikeB_UK (Jul 27, 2015)

> *MikeB_UK*:
> 
> I thought about that and that would only apply if you are able to make a full pass with each stroke. That may be true when you are working the end-grain but length-wise is less likely to be true.
> 
> ...


Hmm, I hadn't considered anyone working that way (Unless it's set to cut on the backstoke), I'd have thought they were mostly used like a plough plane
- either full length pass, or
- start at the end and work your way back as you cut to depth (or vice-versa if you are cutting on the back stroke)

Just nick the fence from the plough plane, replace the skate and iron with the saw plate.









I like SMP's idea about progressive teeth though


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> *MikeB_UK*:
> 
> I thought about that and that would only apply if you are able to make a full pass with each stroke. That may be true when you are working the end-grain but length-wise is less likely to be true.
> 
> ...


Have you ever used a plow plane? I use my kerf plane similar to that.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

One concern about using a Ryoba blade for this is that it needs pretty deep teeth so that the saw dust has a place to go. If you look at the Blackburn blade image above, you can see that he puts huge gullets for that. Otherwise you may have to (more) frequently clear the built up sawdust out of the kerf.

I don't have a kerfing plane but every video I have ever seen of a kerfing saw in use show the action more like sawing than using a plough plane. You usually start a cut with plough plane differently where you typically start near the end of the cut and take progressively longer cuts until you reach the back end and then make full length cuts. With a kerfing plane, I have typically seen people start at the back end and work the entire length of the board from the start. This is probably helps to push any sawdust out of both ends of the kerf.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Regarding the comment about "only the last teeth will be doing any cutting on the final strokes at full depth" (my choice of words for paraphrasing both my own thoughts and comments to the effect).

I thought about this too and realized that the only thing that the last and final tooth (or one ahead of it) will be cutting is in-fact material that was too low for the tooth in front of it.

Now this is where we get into trigonometry.

The amount of material that we are talking about the last tooth cutting would be equivalent to sin(theta)=x/d where theta is the degrees raised, d is the distance between teeth, and x is the maximum height of material that can reach the tooth (either by way of being too short for the tooth in front of it or being the result of material that a tooth in front of it did not clear but cut everything higher away).

Let's figure out what d is. Turns out that while the cross-cut side of the Ryoba is 18 TPI, the rip side of the blade is only 7-11 TPI gradated. That puts d as somewhere between 0.0909 and 0.1428 between each tooth. I verified with digital calipers.

OK, so let's figure out based on sin(theta)=x/0.125 (8 TPI) what kind of values we get for x (height of material hitting the last tooth not cleared by tooth in front of it) for various values of theta, using Wolfram Alpha (or a graphing calculator, whichever you like).

At 0 degrees (theta=0), the value of x in sin(0)=x/0.125 is, as you guessed it, 0.
At 0.5 degrees upward slant (theta=0.5), the value for x in sin(0.5)=x/0.125 is ~0.001" 
At 1 degree, the value for x is ~0.002" 
At 1.5 degrees, the value is ~0.003"

So basically (at 8 TPI) 1/1,000th of an inch for each half-degree of pitch.
At 11 TPI, it comes out 8/10,000th of an inch per half-degree.

You can use the formula sin(degrees) = rise / (1 / TPI) where calculating "rise" tells you how much material a single tooth can be called-upon to handle (by slamming head-long into, hopefully-if not dull-to make the cut).

If your saw blade teeth cannot take slamming head-long into 0.001" of material (or less, as seen by 11 TPI), I question the quality of the tool. Now, when you start getting upwards of 1/128" (~0.008") thats's when I would say it starts to matter.

If theta is 3.5 degrees you start to approach a more aggressive stance where each tooth is hitting more than 1/128th of an inch, individually.

Taking it to the extreme:
+ 15 degree tilt would give you ~1/32 of an inch.
+ 30 degree tilt would give you 1/16 of an inch (sin(30)=(1/16)/(1/8))

So, we've established there is a range of good tilts and those that will cause damage to the teeth. I would say between 0 and 5 degrees of tilt (at 11-12 TPI; at 7-8 TPI, I would set the range at 0 to 3.5 degrees).

ASIDE: The way I plan on using this saw/plane of course is that at the beginning I will be engaging all the teeth, with no tilt. The plan is that as I get close to final depth that the lower TPI teeth stop engaging *on purpose* (based on above information which tells me that) if an angle such as 5 degrees is chosen that you *want* the lower TPI to disengage as you drop down because a 5 degree tilt is too great for them to handle (while it is not too great to handle for the higher TPI teeth). So this would necessitate the proper way to use a kerfing plane with an angle is to engage all teeth until you approach final depth and only then let the angle engage (unless of course the angle is slight enough that it wouldn't matter *or* the teeth are not gradated as they are on my saw-pictured above).

FURTHER ASIDE: Someone here told me that I would find saws interesting. I didn't believe them at the time. Now that I am getting into the mathematics of how they work, why they work, and what happens on very small scales, I am *very* interested in saws now. I didn't think they were so complex. I actually think there is a lot going on.

On another note, I don't necessarily think slowing down the cut is a bad thing when I take a shallow tilt into consideration. In fact, I think it would allow prolonging the cut toward the final pass. If for nothing other than the pure satisfaction of finishing strong, less aggression toward the end will translate to full length passes since it will be less likely to dive-in, doubly-so since it will be using the little back teeth.

But, let's talk about those little back teeth.

We've been worried about how much material can hit a single tooth because the issue is that it can bend the tooth. Well, on the Vaughan Bear Saw, the back teeth are small and not as prolonged, much closer to the plate body. It would be nearly impossible to bend those (that's why they are often used for starting). So I don't feel so bad about relying on those teeth at the end because they are stronger despite being slower cutting. I can start gingerly and then go for a strong finish (which is often how one has to start the kerf anyways, considering that once the blade is about 1/16" deep it is pretty easy to keep going deeper.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

*SMP*, never used a plough/plow plane before, but I think they would produce a groove much larger than my saw kerf


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

*Lazyman*, I checked and here's an interesting thing about the rip side of the Ryoba.

The valleys are always the same depth as the distance between the tooth and the one in front of it.

So where TPI of the rip side is 8, the valley from the tip is 0.125" just as the distance between the tooth before/after it is also 0.125"

Likewise, at the start of the blade (near the handle) where TPI is 11-12, the distance between the points on the teeth is 0.0085" just as the depth of the valley

I thought that was interesting, and while the cross-cut side of the Ryoba sounds like what you are describing, the rip side looks pretty well adapted to the task.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> *SMP*, never used a plough/plow plane before, but I think they would produce a groove much larger than my saw kerf
> 
> - DevinT


LOL! no what i am getting at is you use a plow plane differently than most things. you start at the far end, let it dip down to create a "channel" that the skate can ride further into on each consecutive pass. You then back up and repeat the process adding like a foot or so each time you back up.

I do this similarly with the kerfing plane when i use mine. This allows the dust to push out the end and doesn't build up. As Lazyman mentions he doesn't see people do this in videos, and as you mention you see it rear up on people in the videos, cause there is nowhere for the dust to go if you use it like you are using a corner bead plane or something.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> *Lazyman*, I checked and here s an interesting thing about the rip side of the Ryoba.
> 
> The valleys are always the same depth as the distance between the tooth and the one in front of it.
> 
> ...


Funny, i went out and measured mine and you are right. never noticed that before, kind of an optical illusion as it looks different!


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## theoldfart (Sep 9, 2011)

This is what I've been using.


















No need to adjust depth. Fence is locked once you set the width of the cut and I get a very uniform kerf on all four sides.


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## MikeB_UK (Jul 27, 2015)

The other option for dust clearance is put rakers in like an old-school crosscut logging saw.

Change the teeth to ripcut for a kerfing saw, but the sawdust clearance method would still work.
Curve of the plate lets the sawdust get thrown out on each stroke - always cuts full length though, so may not be needed (But ties in with Devins maths, so probably couldnt hurt .


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## MikeB_UK (Jul 27, 2015)

> This is what I've been using.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well that answers the question of if a normal plough plane fence would work, nice bit of repurposing there Kev.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

*MikeB_UK* A curved blade, like old two-person logging saws, are what I often thought would make the most efficient resaw blade. The curvature of the blade in essence is a built-in slant set by the manufacturer based on what the teeth can handle.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

Hey Devin,
As most kerfing planes were a modified stair saw I believe, check out the angle and toe on this old stair saw:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/304132346923?hash=item46cfb3542b:g:6g0AAOSwj6BhMpZZ

If this thing had a fence it would make a great kerfing plane. even a flat piece glued on to make 1/8" veneers etc.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I know I can buy a stair saw and slap a plough plane fence on it, but that wouldn't end with me producing a design for the Shaper Hub that people can download, cut, and slap a Ryoba blade into to make a sub-$30 kerfing plane.

The idea of giving away the plans to such a thing is attractive to me, mostly because when I either break it and need another one I myself can go to the hub and get the plans to make a new one, or I can make improvements over time and replace my previous offering (all the while, maintaining something that anyone can download and turn a block of wood into a kerfing plane in an afternoon).

The beauty in doing it this way, I find, is that I can fine-tune details such as angle, adjuster, and carcass, codifying those things into files that, once I have created them, allow me to jettison all that information from my brain and simply trust the file.

And should I find that the fine-tuning is good, then others get to benefit from my hard work instead of having to do what I did to get there.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I translated a French page into English using Google Translate

"These [4] planes are used to carve a fine groove on the edge of a board. In this way the ripper saw (or the handsaw) will be guided by this fine groove. It is an extremely useful tool in handwork and almost impossible to find. Fortunately, it is easy to make."

So, it would turn out that people did not convert stair saws into kerfing planes, they had "rabots à refendre" which translates into "planes to split" or "splitting planes" which has been suggested also to be "slitting planes" or "ripping planes".

Since the majority of translations for the French colonial kerfing plane are to do with the activity that follows (to split, splitting, or ripping), I would imagine we have been calling it a kerfing plane when we should call it a splitting or ripping plane.

In these photos of the old French tool that co-existed and was smaller than a stair saw, it appears to have rip teeth on all 4 of the tools.

What's also interesting is how little the teeth stick out, making a very shallow groove. Also, fixed fences for whatever width is needed.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

you wanna resaw,this is what i use,a hitachi cb75f,with a 3"wide resaw blade,done!!!! no trig needed-lol. sorry dev i couldn't resist.power tool junkie !


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I'm drooling. I wish I had that luxury. Not until I put rafters up in the garage to hoist all the storage bins above our heads will I have enough shop space in our 1-car mini garage for something like that-which will shortly be followed by a metal lathe and milling machine.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Right now I've just been busted for looking at French planes instead of working on the Air conditioner project since the heat is coming and I either need to be taking care of the baby or working on the air conditioner.

So right now I need to clear off my bench of all the pretty things that I have recently received but have yet to blog about and work on the ol' plexiglass hood for redirecting air in the project that seems like it will never end (going on 11 months now, soon to be a year into the making).

I'm just so tired of this project that I'm already starting to think about my next plane-not the kerfing plane, which I need to build to do resaws for my next Veritas hand plane build.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

hey girl your top priority project is what your new one needs right now,so take care of business and this stuff can wait.i know when you have a passion like you do it burns inside you,but ya gotta do whats needed first.give that baby a kiss for me ok.peace girl.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> Right now I ve just been busted for looking at French planes instead of working on the Air conditioner project since the heat is coming and I either need to be taking care of the baby or working on the air conditioner.
> 
> So right now I need to clear off my bench of all the pretty things that I have recently received but have yet to blog about and work on the ol plexiglass hood for redirecting air in the project that seems like it will never end (going on 11 months now, soon to be a year into the making).
> 
> ...


Oh then here you go. $20 and 5 minutes, boom, done:
https://thepatriotwoodworker.com/forums/topic/7988-quick-and-easy-kerfing-saw/


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I don't know. It doesn't have a fence. Kind of defeats the purpose, which is to create a kerf for producing either 27/32" or 3/8" thick lumber from thicker boards.

I just realized that I already built the adjustable fence as part of another project which was essentially just that, an adjustable fence for making parallel cuts on the router table. I'll take some photos and share it soon.

If I drill two holes in it, I can attach it to the bottom of the kerfing plane to make an adjustable fence. So that solves that bit. Adjustable fence for free. So 27/32 and 3/8 is solved.

ASIDE: I think you'll like it. It's Western Red Cedar with plexiglass struts and 1/4-20 socket cap machine screws and nylon washers. Super simple and very effective at projecting a parallel fence from a fixed point. I just have to make sure that where it attaches to the base of the kerfing plane puts the closed position just behind the blade, allowing the thinnest of veneers to be peeled off a board.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)




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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

dev dont compromise on your standards,next thing you know you'll be like me !!!! ;-)


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

Just to compare, the Blackburn has gullets more like bucksaw teeth. I think he may start with a traditional rip saw tooth layout and cuts bigger gullets. From his website:


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Yeah, it's just too bad he is not answering e-mails. I would gladly drop the money if I knew he wasn't dead.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

Did you try just adding one to a cart and checking out? Both Blackburn and Bad Axe show them as orderable and the Bad Axe ordering page for kerfing plane a and frame saw kits shows they ship withing "4 working days"... though maybe they only work 1 day a month.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> Did you try just adding one to a cart and checking out? Both Blackburn and Bad Axe show them as orderable and the Bad Axe ordering page for kerfing plane a and frame saw kits shows they ship withing "4 working days"... though maybe they only work 1 day a month.
> 
> - Lazyman


Yeah that may be Pottz working days! just kidding Pottz.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> Just to compare, the Blackburn has gullets more like bucksaw teeth. I think he may start with a traditional rip saw tooth layout and cuts bigger gullets. From his website:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I believe he takes a regular rip blade, then takes a chain saw file(round) and cuts the gullets with that.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> Did you try just adding one to a cart and checking out? Both Blackburn and Bad Axe show them as orderable and the Bad Axe ordering page for kerfing plane a and frame saw kits shows they ship withing "4 working days"... though maybe they only work 1 day a month.
> 
> - Lazyman
> 
> ...


;-) yeah never know huh ?


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Website looks old enough that the person died long ago and PayPal will gladly take my money for a business that has long since been shuttered.

1990's-looking website?

I'm going to e-mail you to make sure you're still alive before I allow a 3rd party (PayPal) to take money on your behalf.

Especially when we're talking about BadAxe (whom also has a 1990's-looking website) who wants $450 for a finished kerfing plane. People with that kind of money aren't going to give you single red cent if they think you're not alive and won't ever see the product. By not answering e-mail both BadAxe and Blackburn are essentially forcing my hand into creating my own because I don't give money to people that don't talk to me who make websites that imply they died 20 years ago (which, a single e-mail reply would prove otherwise).


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

i agree if they wont respond to your emails i sure wouldn't send any money.a small mom and pop business could be here today gone tomorrow.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> Especially when we re talking about BadAxe (whom also has a 1990 s-looking website) who wants $450 for a finished kerfing plane. People with that kind of money aren t going to give you single red cent if they think you re not alive and won t ever see the product.
> - DevinT


I take it you've never heard of Kickstarter. People there flock to fund R&D for others and pay hundreds or thousands of dollars for a product that hasn't even been created yet and there is no guarantee that it ever will.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

SMP, touché.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

Both have a pretty good reputation but are small possibly one man operations, so have a pretty long backlog. Bad Axe website has some updates that are dated Sept. 1 2021, so there is life there, and they have a list of ready to ship premium saws. I think that the kerfing and frame saw kit says it will ship in 4 business days, according to premium saw page, and says it is $50 off the listed $295 price at checkout.

I think what you are interpreting as antiquated websites is simply what a small business run by wood and metal guys who don't have your modern tech experience can afford and, if you use a credit card to pay with PayPal, you can always get your money back if you get no indication that someone is working your order.

EDIT to add: It sort of funny complaining about antiquated websites while on Lumberjocks. ;-)


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

LJ has signs life. I'm just saying with age (or the appearance of age) people may need to poke you with a stick occasionally if you stop moving.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

bad axe appears to be legit and viable,id go for it with no worries.ive heard only good things about them here.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

I guess I would rather they keep making tools.  I can't fault you for wanting some sort of human response but with small operations like these that have a good reputation and typically long lead times because most tools are made to order, the lack of response is more likely that they have more business then they can handle and spend nearly every minute making rather than responding to random email queries. And there is a sign of life on the link I posted above. I get it. The silence makes your leery but as I said, they have a good reputation and a credit card purchase has minimal risk.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Excellent. Salient points, and yes, there are signs of life from Bad Axe, so I can forgive the lack of response. Also, their line of thought may be along the lines of "we are so busy, responding to this e-mail will create more business" and so did not respond to buy time to handle current load. Been there. Done that. You just let the orders come in and hope they slow down, and if they don't, you start looking for hired help (usually going to family first because you can pay them non-monetarily, then friends, then strangers).


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Getting this show on the road, I've finally decided to open Inkscape and design the Kerfing Plane by first physically measuring every aspect of the blade and creating a vector object to represent the blade. Once I have a vectorized version of the blade, I can design around it.

I will be using an uncut Vaughan Bear Saw blade. They are cheap, plentiful, have a hang-hole that I can utilize for added stability (read: no holes to drill), and I'll be exposing the rip side of the blade which has gradated teeth from 7-11 TPI (8-12 PPI), though-should I need to-I can use it to make a groove into the surface of the board some distance from the end grain (to cut a board to length) by flipping the blade over to use the cross-cut teeth.

In measuring the Ryoba, it is thankfully perfectly symmetrical. The slant on the blade is 3 degrees on both sides. Based on my calculations, putting the blade into the Kerfing Plane such that the leading edge of the saw blade is perpendicular to the wood would preserve this 3 degree slant with the higher TPI section raised. This means that we can expect that the maximum material to be cut by a slanted tooth in the 8 PPI section would be 0.0065" on a tooth that is 0.125" in length, for a calculated load of just 5.23%. That's without taking tooth geometry into consideration for strength.

So it would seem that the manufacturers of Japanese saws already did the trigonometric calculations because they baked it into their saw design for the Ryoba. Here I thought I was going to improve on it, but after careful examination, every aspect is already good to go.

As long as I get the position of the blade in the carcass right, this thing should work really well.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

OK, it took some time to meticulously measure the saw blade to within 0.001" but I did it.










Now that I have a digital version of the blade, I make digital objects to fill the negative space:










So in essence, if I cut these 2 (above) parts out of hardwood, I can then pocket out a hole in any board for the shapes using a 1/8" bit in the Shaper Origin, then friction-fit the pieces into the holes with some wood glue, and then slap the saw blade onto the board over the raise inlays.

Then I plan to have a board on special hinges that will close over the blade, keeping it flush against the board.

Then all I have to do is to connect my fence.

I make it sound easy, but I have to cut out each of the two pieces for a test fit before I can then test the positions of the pockets to make sure they are in the right location. Should be fun.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

So do I understand correctly? You are going to pocket out the the gray areas on both images above so that the bottom one will nest into the top one? Won't the raised white area around the blade in the top image prevent the 2 halves from fitting together? Maybe I don't understand. Sounds like that could take a while with a 1/8" bit.


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## DavePolaschek (Oct 21, 2016)

FYI, Mark at Bad Axe lost his wife (and business partner) within the past year. He had a few rough months, and I strongly suspect he's swimming as fast as he can just to stay afloat, but he'll do right by you if you place an order. If you're afraid, give him a call. They answer the phone at the shop.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

The top image is just a digital representation of the blade. I'm not using that for anything other than do design the plane.

The second image (which has only a circle on the left and a odd shaped thing on the right) is what I will use.

First I will use the second image to cut objects of those shapes. They will be slightly undersized by about 0.01".

Second I will use (again) the second image but pocket out the areas into a board (at their precise locations as they appear in the second image). The holes will be undersized by about 0.005".

I then take the shapes and friction-fit them them into the holes.

I now have a board with two protuberances. A circle sticking up out of the board and a odd shape sticking up out of the board.

The position of the shapes on the board is important. They are positioned to fit into the holes in the blade (see first image).


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I mean, I *could* just pocket out the shape of the blade and set it into the relief, but:

1. That's more cutting than is necessary; just cut pieces to fill the holes and cut a hole for them to go through the saw blade and into a board to secure the blade

2. The bottom of the relief won't be perfectly flat. It's easier to first produce a flat board and then put two holes in it and then slam some stantions into said holes and set the blade over the newly raised areas

Why pocket out 11" x 3.25" when you can cut a 0.25" x 1" circle and a 0.5" x 1.5" shape? Not to mention that going the route of cutting shapes to fill the holes to secure the blade allows me to use two different species of wood. I was thinking about making the raised areas out of Purple Heart for its strength (there is going to be a fair amount of force against these wooden "pins" as I push/pull the plane forward/backward and so I'll want a nice hearty hardwood to take that brunt. I guess I could mill the pieces out of steel, but I think that's overkill.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

Instead of the nesting shapes, I would probably just drill holes for the circle shapes on both ends and on both boards and use a dowel or bolt. Same functionality but much simpler. The wrist and middle finger (looks like cartoon hand flipping us off will not really add any tighter fit and you can avoid the time consuming pocket basically removing most of the the face of the board. You can still use the SO to pocket the 4 holes but 2 boards will be quick cuts and mirror images of each other.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Well, I May have to make my own stubby dowels anyway. You are right that I could get by with just two circles.

I haven't decided whether the second board will make use of the dowels.

What I might do is just have the second board permanently connected to the plane attached with a set of high tension 90-degree cabinet hinges that, as they approach the closed position, snap shut and hold tight. I got the hinges off an old TV stand that we decommissioned.

I think it would be quite nice to "open" the plane, insert the blade, close the plane, adjust the fence, make the kerf, open the plane, take the blade out, put the handle back on, perform the resaw.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

Now I know what Richard Maguire means when he says not to worry about all the faff and just get to work. LMAO


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

There is no reason to go caveman.


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## MikeB_UK (Jul 27, 2015)

Oh, come on, there is always a reason to go caveman


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I just meant that there's faffing about and then there's being rude and crude-I like to think I'm approaching somewhere in the middle. I am giving it some thought (not too much-a few days is worth it to me if it means I don't make a colossal blunder of it) before I expend energy.

Much easier for me to make design changes before I start than after, doubly-so since my shop time is very limited right now.

Just so everyone knows where this is going, here is an image that demonstrates how the blade will be pinned against a board


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

One dowel will need to be 0.35" in diameter and the other (larger) dowel will need to be 0.43" in diameter. I am going to use the Shaper Origin to make stubby little dowels at the proper diameters.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)




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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

I think you should start all your posts with "I need to find an excuse to use my shaper origin, so I am thinking of making …", that way we all know what the point of the complexity in reinventing the wheel with more complicated designs is, lol.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

I am guessing that .35 and .43 may be metric sizes (9 and 11mm). If you don't want to use wood, you may be able to find a metric rod or bolt that will fit.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

SMP, no.

Reasoning:

1. Plane kit from Lee Valley that I ordered in April for the swap finally arrived
2. I want to turn it into a plane
3. That means dimensioning more lumber
4. That means more resaws
5. I want to improve the accuracy of my resaw to cut down on waste
6. Either a Kerfing Plane to make a groove to keep the Ryoba on track *or* a Roubo frame saw which is less prone to wandering would solve the above

I don't have to use the Shaper to make either, but …

a. It's faster
b. More accurate
c. Shareable
d. Repeatable

I mean, I have thought about just using an auger bit and brace to make the holes and shove some dowels in there, then clamp the blade and we are good.

Or hell, just take some 27/32" stock, put the naked saw blade on top of it, clamp them both to a flat sheet of MDF, and then just run my stock against the blade which is sitting at the proper height to make the kerf in the desired location. It's not rocket science.

Just because I'm putting effort into doing it with the Shaper for the value-add it brings, doesn't mean that my needs are not real or that my reasons are influenced by having a Shaper. I have the above needs, I have the described possible approaches, and I simply chose to use Shaper. Wasn't looking for something to make with Shaper.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

*lazyman* In metric, I get 9.04mm for the hang-hole and for the larger hole that the handle uses, I get 11.04mm.

Thanks for helping me to see that they were metric. There were several other measurements that appeared to be in imperial and so I figured all the measurements were that way. Looks to either be a mixture or it's just coincidence that a few measurements land on commonly-used imperial units.

Now, if I convert 0.04mm to inches (because my brain can't conceptualize what 0.04mm is), I get 0.001574803" or basically "1.5 thou" as we'd say.

1.5 thou is basically the difference between an interference fit and a friction fit.

So thank you very much. I now have a standard size that I can use for the pinning of the blade onto a board and I don't *have* to use the Shaper for that part (I quite like the idea of just cutting a brass dowel for this).


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Nobody makes 9 and 11 mm dowel pins. They come in 8, 10, 12, but not 9 and 11.

I found some 11mm solid brass rod stock, but after seeing a picture of it, I'm thinking there's no way I'm going to get through that with the crappy hacksaw I've got and no bandsaw.










Looks like we're back to using Shaper Origin to turn some boards into short dowels that are the proper diameter.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Wait a minute … /me looks at saw … looks at above image …

There's no way that's 11 mm. See, my brain really doesn't know metric. You could tell me 100mm and I'll think it's 3 yards.


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## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

Multiply inches by 25.4 for exact conversion to mm.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Thanks!


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

I usually just google "11mm to in." I also have a conversion app on my ipad… or ask Siri or Alexa. Just don't ask them to divide by zero.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

Oh and if you are going to continue making your own tools, you might as well get a decent hack saw. When I finally bought a Lennox HS, it was amazing how much better it works.


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## MikeB_UK (Jul 27, 2015)

> Nobody makes 9 and 11 mm dowel pins. They come in 8, 10, 12, but not 9 and 11.
> 
> - DevinT


I had a quick google and found some dowel rods fairly easily - might just be more common over here though.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I checked froogle (google shopping), eBay, and Amazon.

Link?


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

*lazyman* purchased!


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## MikeB_UK (Jul 27, 2015)

This is how you go caveman on something

No measurements and It's mostly made by hitting stuff with heavy objects, even the planes get hit to adjust them


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> This is how you go caveman on something
> 
> No measurements and It s mostly made by hitting stuff with heavy objects, even the planes get hit to adjust them
> 
> ...


thanks mike finally something i can understand -lol.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

But I bet you wouldn't appreciate it if the wood die you used to create the screw threads was caveman'd together.

I'm learning once again like I learned in grade school … hide your gifts. People will think you are smarter if you don't tell them what you are doing to get to the end result. Only share that stuff with people that ask for it because everyone else won't understand it and their appreciation of the end-product will be diminished because they may not understand it.

Would you have preferred if I just skipped the forum thread and just pooped out a project and said "look, I made a Kerfing Plane" and you simply commented "oh, that's unique" and I didn't share any of the thought process that led to any of the design decisions?


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

7/16" wouldn't work out of the box to fill a hole that is 0.43" because it would be 0.0075" too large, but taking sandpaper to it while it was spinning in a power drill might work to take off about 0.01" for a nice snug fit.


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## MikeB_UK (Jul 27, 2015)

9mm
Wickes

Amazon

11mm
I'll go with an american one here

Generally I'd go here for dowels, well their ebay shop so I can use paypal, but probably not much use to you to be fair.
Mostly because they list everything in imperial and most of my stuff predates the metric system.


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## MikeB_UK (Jul 27, 2015)

> But I bet you wouldn t appreciate it if the wood die you used to create the screw threads was caveman d together.


Fair point, although if it didn't work I'd use a different method, or make a better one, even I'm not above taking time to make something that works better.



> I m learning once again like I learned in grade school … hide your gifts. People will think you are smarter if you don t tell them what you are doing to get to the end result. Only share that stuff with people that ask for it because everyone else won t understand it and their appreciation of the end-product will be diminished because they may not understand it.


Don't hide them, we have an array of very talented people around here, and an array of mouthy sarcastic ones, and an array of grumpy ones - I'll leave the venn diagram to you, but it generally works, mostly. 



> Would you have preferred if I just skipped the forum thread and just pooped out a project and said "look, I made a Kerfing Plane" and you simply commented "oh, that s unique" and I didn t share any of the thought process that led to any of the design decisions?
> 
> - DevinT


Hell no, I much prefer the thought processes to the finished product in most cases.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Oh, I'm sorry. I re-read what I posted and it's not clear that I meant brass dowel pins in 9mm and 11mm.

If I'm going to use wooden dowel pins, I'm going to make them myself out of Purple Heart or something harder (like Cocobolo).

Funny thing. Amazon won't even sell me those dowel pins, even if I wanted to buy them.


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## MikeB_UK (Jul 27, 2015)

Ah, metal, that makes more sense, wondered why you were worried about a tenth of a milli difference in wood.

hmm, must still be a metric imperial thing then, OK over here for anything metric









Althoug I was looking for some 1 1/4 inch beech the other month and couldn't find any, so probably goes both ways


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> But I bet you wouldn t appreciate it if the wood die you used to create the screw threads was caveman d together.
> 
> I m learning once again like I learned in grade school … hide your gifts. People will think you are smarter if you don t tell them what you are doing to get to the end result. Only share that stuff with people that ask for it because everyone else won t understand it and their appreciation of the end-product will be diminished because they may not understand it.
> 
> ...


dev im just teasin,dont even think about toning it down,and dont ever think you need too hide your knowledge.hell even if i dont understand it someone im sure will and learn from it.you always amaze me with your talent creating something that few would even try.i think one comment was,why reinvent the wheel ? well if someone many years ago didn't we'd be driving around on wood spoke wheels rimmed with metal bands.not the smoothest ride for sure.we need people like you that push the envelope.so excuse my down play on what your doing and once again impress me as you always do. ;-)


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Thanks … full steam ahead!


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## DavePolaschek (Oct 21, 2016)

Devin, metric brass rods shipped to your door. Far from the cheapest in the universe, but McMaster-Carr is my go to for metal stock odd enough that it's hard to find elsewhere.


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## LeeRoyMan (Feb 23, 2019)

> 7/16" wouldn t work out of the box to fill a hole that is 0.43" because it would be *0.0075" too large*, but taking sandpaper to it while it was spinning in a power drill might work to take off about 0.01" for a nice snug fit.
> 
> - DevinT


7/16" = .4375
11mm =.4330
Difference of .0045 (about a human hair)
Unless my math is wrong?


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

A .4375 diameter round object cannot pass through a .4330 hole, correct? Regardless of whether the difference is a human hair or not.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Dave, oddly enough that page skips 11 mm and jumps from 10 to 12mm for offerings. Sure they offer 9 mm but that's only one of the two pins I would need.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> A .4375 diameter round object cannot pass through a .4330 hole, correct? Regardless of whether the difference is a human hair or not.
> 
> - DevinT


as they say dev,just get a bigger hammer ? sadly no !


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I just realized that if I cut the dowel from hardwood, that I should probably make the dowel out of the end-grain instead of cutting a circle out from the surface of the board which would produce grain that is weak with respect to shear forces applied along the cylinder wall


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## LeeRoyMan (Feb 23, 2019)

> A .4375 diameter round object cannot pass through a .4330 hole, correct? Regardless of whether the difference is a human hair or not.
> 
> - DevinT


Brass is soft enough, a little chamfer on the end, and you could probably press it through with no problem.
I suppose drilling the hole to 7/16" is out of the question as well?


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Well, I wanted to be able to slap an unmodified blade into it like the blade was made for the tool (and vice-versa) instead of requiring modification of the blade, though if it comes to it that's exactly what I will do. It's only untempered steel. I could just grab my steel cutting round bit and helix out the holes with the shaper origin to whatever diameter I want, accurate down to 0.0005". Though I did want to make the design within reach for others and not everybody has a steel cutting router bit (so if I do drill the thing out, I'll definitely be using a standard bit size-and if I actually have that bit size I'll probably chuck it into a hand drill or bit brace or power drill, depending on how I feel-and that's something definitely accessible to most folks; I think most people have the ability to put a 7/16" hole into steel with a power drill and regular drill bit, even if most folks don't have the experience in doing so).


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> I just realized that if I cut the dowel from hardwood, that I should probably make the dowel out of the end-grain instead of cutting a circle out from the surface of the board which would produce grain that is weak with respect to shear forces applied along the cylinder wall
> 
> - DevinT


yes that would be the way to get the most shear strength from wood.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> I could just grab my steel cutting round bit and helix out the holes with the shaper origin to whatever diameter I want, accurate down to 0.0005".
> 
> - DevinT


Really? A quarter-inch 720 watt (1 hp) router motor can manage 0.0005" milling steel? I'd wager the run-out is greater that.


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## LeeRoyMan (Feb 23, 2019)

> Well, I wanted to be able to slap an unmodified blade into it like the blade was made for the tool (and vice-versa) instead of requiring modification of the blade, though if it comes to it that s exactly what I will do. It s only untempered steel. I could just grab my steel cutting round bit and helix out the holes with the shaper origin to whatever diameter I want, accurate down to 0.0005". Though I did want to make the design within reach for others and not everybody has a steel cutting router bit (so if I do drill the thing out, I ll definitely be using a standard bit size-and if I actually have that bit size I ll probably chuck it into a hand drill or bit brace or power drill, depending on how I feel-and that s something definitely accessible to most folks; I think most people have the ability to put a 7/16" hole into steel with a power drill and regular drill bit, even if most folks don t have the experience in doing so).
> 
> - DevinT


Yeah, I probably shouldn't have tried to offer any help in the first place.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> Well, I wanted to be able to slap an unmodified blade into it like the blade was made for the tool (and vice-versa) instead of requiring modification of the blade, though if it comes to it that s exactly what I will do. It s only untempered steel. I could just grab my steel cutting round bit and helix out the holes with the shaper origin to whatever diameter I want, accurate down to 0.0005". Though I did want to make the design within reach for others and not everybody has a steel cutting router bit (so if I do drill the thing out, I ll definitely be using a standard bit size-and if I actually have that bit size I ll probably chuck it into a hand drill or bit brace or power drill, depending on how I feel-and that s something definitely accessible to most folks; I think most people have the ability to put a 7/16" hole into steel with a power drill and regular drill bit, even if most folks don t have the experience in doing so).
> 
> - DevinT
> 
> ...


why not,the more input the better.different ideas together create better results.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

> I could just grab my steel cutting round bit and helix out the holes with the shaper origin to whatever diameter I want, accurate down to 0.0005".
> 
> - DevinT
> 
> ...


I don't know what "run-out" is.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I make claims about what *I* can do with the Shaper. You'll notice that I don't make claims about what the Shaper can do in the hands of anyone, but I do declare, I can hit a mark to within half-a-thou. Obviously you can't ask the Shaper to hit a half-a-thou mark (it's accuracy is limited internally to half-a-thou but the user interface only lets you dial-in to 0.001"). Where the Shaper starts to fail, that's where experience, knowledge, and technique take over and get me the rest of the way.

ASIDE: It's very rare whenever I need to hit a mark to such tolerances but when I have had to do it, I have done it. I pull out my calipers, and I measure, and sure enough, I get that tiny little "5" to light up after the 3rd decimal digit. Don't know what "run-out" is … but I know what I am capable of achieving.

I also have way more patience than most. If told something is impossible, I often have to evaluate that statement not because I am a fool but because often times the explanations are unsatisfactory and so I have to determine by effectively doing why or why-not something is the way it is.

Example: If someone tells me jumping off a cliff is a bad idea, I might (as an avid rock climber) suggest learning how to repel. Net win … if all my friends decide to go jump off a cliff, I can join them. Bridges are another story, I draw the line at bungee jumping.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

OK, I read this page and I think I understand what you're saying.

What you're not understanding is that I don't ask the Shaper to hit some mark by dialing in some number and pray it will work. I make a cut, I measure, I make a cut, I measure. Sometimes I repeat a cut without making any changes whatsoever and end up taking off material. It's not rocket science, it's called patience and determination.

I didn't know what run-out was until now, but it didn't matter, because I've essentially been testing the Shaper since I got it in January and do not trust it one bit, but allow it to surprise me. I try things, and sometimes they work, and other times they don't.

Now I know *why* the techniques that I employ in using the Shaper to get certain results are the way they are. Run-out actually explains quite a bit when I'm working under high tolerances to get the results I need. Thank you for teaching me about it.

Perhaps I need to give a class on how to "properly" use the Shaper, but I doubt anyone would attend because I am long-winded and boring.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> OK, I read this page and I think I understand what you re saying.
> 
> What you re not understanding is that I don t ask the Shaper to hit some mark by dialing in some number and pray it will work. I make a cut, I measure, I make a cut, I measure. Sometimes I repeat a cut without making any changes whatsoever and end up taking off material. It s not rocket science, it s called patience and determination.
> 
> ...


well learning what run out is very important to understand doing what you are trying to do.now if i ever decide to buy an origin you will be the one i pick your brain for information.you will need too learn the word"tone down" though -lol.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> I don t know what "run-out" is.
> 
> - DevinT


That might be part of the problem.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> I make claims about what *I* can do with the Shaper. You ll notice that I don t make claims about what the Shaper can do in the hands of anyone, but I do declare, I can hit a mark to within half-a-thou. Obviously you can t ask the Shaper to hit a half-a-thou mark (it s accuracy is limited internally to half-a-thou but the user interface only lets you dial-in to 0.001"). Where the Shaper starts to fail, that s where experience, knowledge, and technique take over and get me the rest of the way.
> 
> ASIDE: It s very rare whenever I need to hit a mark to such tolerances but when I have had to do it, I have done it. I pull out my calipers, and I measure, and sure enough, I get that tiny little "5" to light up after the 3rd decimal digit. Don t know what "run-out" is … but I know what I am capable of achieving.
> 
> ...


Long ago, I had to mill steel to .001 tolerance to get my machine tool operator certificate. Thats for steel. For wood you don't have to be anywhere even remotely close. Even if you could, the moisture from your breath as your making the cut makes the wood swell that much, and in winter it will be 1/16" different lol. So kind of a pointless pursuit. So when you ask, can a .4375 rod pass through a .4333 hole? If its wood, absolutely. Thats kind of the premise of the Ikea empire. The other option is to just build your skill in resawing by hand. This whole thing is like having Nasa design training wheels for your bicycle, lmao!


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> I don t know what "run-out" is.
> 
> - DevinT
> 
> ...


yes,it's something too understand and deal with to achieve the result you want.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> I make claims about what *I* can do with the Shaper. You ll notice that I don t make claims about what the Shaper can do in the hands of anyone, but I do declare, I can hit a mark to within half-a-thou. Obviously you can t ask the Shaper to hit a half-a-thou mark (it s accuracy is limited internally to half-a-thou but the user interface only lets you dial-in to 0.001"). Where the Shaper starts to fail, that s where experience, knowledge, and technique take over and get me the rest of the way.
> 
> ASIDE: It s very rare whenever I need to hit a mark to such tolerances but when I have had to do it, I have done it. I pull out my calipers, and I measure, and sure enough, I get that tiny little "5" to light up after the 3rd decimal digit. Don t know what "run-out" is … but I know what I am capable of achieving.
> 
> ...


so true,with wood it depends on how big is your hammer and how hard do you wanna pound on it-lol.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> I make claims about what *I* can do with the Shaper. You ll notice that I don t make claims about what the Shaper can do in the hands of anyone, but I do declare, I can hit a mark to within half-a-thou.
> 
> - DevinT


I would love it if you'd pull out your digital caliper that's accurate to half-a-thou and show us.

I realize that your hands can do things not just anyone's can do, but are you really able to exceed the capabilities of the tool?


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

*Rich*,

I didn't know the term. In Physics we would describe "run-out" as the axial drift due to angular momentum. It's something I understand very well from a physics point of view, I just had not heard the term "run-out" before which makes sense as it is the measure of distance one runs forward before angular momentum changes their trajectory. It's vector mathematics at its simplest and I think I learned it in 9th grade or possibly even earlier.

However, if you recall an old toy from the 1980's, called a spirograph, you may recall that you place the template down on the paper and by following the instructions, within the area that you placed the template will be a pretty drawing. Nowhere outside of the template are there any pen marks. The point? It wouldn't matter how much run-out a tool has if you know it is there and can work around it. The spirograph may be a chaotic series of activity that forms a spiral, but that spiral is still limited to a particular area.

Now, regarding "exceeding the tools capabilities", I called Shaper HQ in December of 2020 and had a technical discussion with them of the capabilities of the machine and they told me that the UI is limited to 0.001" but internally it can track 0.0005" and the gyro-stepper motor mechanism is capable of delivering the internal representations of distance. So, I bought the Shaper and extracting that kind of accuracy is demanding but possible.

The last time I needed that level of accuracy was, oddly enough, when I was making holes in my MFT top for, you guessed it, dowel pins. The dowel pins I purchased from OSH were incredibly accurately dimensioned with respect to their diameters, and I had a particular fit that I was going for which was on the half-thou mark. How did I do it? It's not rocket science … first know your material. This was MDF. I know that with MDF I can-as previously stated-take off a half-thou simply by re-helixing a hole without changing anything. Double-plunging at 0.001" away from the desired diameter in MDF will get you 0.0005" away from the target diameter.

(comments on shear strength elided)


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> *Rich*,
> 
> I didn t know the term. In Physics we would describe "run-out" as the axial drift due to angular momentum.
> 
> - DevinT


tl;dr

I deleted my comment about shear. It was incorrect.


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## DavePolaschek (Oct 21, 2016)

> Dave, oddly enough that page skips 11 mm and jumps from 10 to 12mm for offerings. Sure they offer 9 mm but that s only one of the two pins I would need.


That's weird. I would email them and ask "what the heck? Am I crazy to try and use 11mm brass?" My experience with McMaster-Carr is that I would get an answer, probably the next business day, but maybe a couple days later. The answer might be, "yeah, it's not worth it for us to stock that unless you're going to buy a ton of that stock," but it's also possible I'd get a url pointing to the thing and a note saying "sorry, something was wacky with our website search," or "we don't have that listed, but we do stock a small amount of it. How much do you need?" I've had all of those results when I've contacted them in the past.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

It seems to me that the challenge with enlarging an existing hole in the saw with the SO may be telling it to thou accuracy where the center of the hole is in the first place so that it can start in the right place. Much easier to do with a drill bit of the target size even without a drill press and you won't have to do a bunch of practice cuts. Just clamp it down well so that it doesn't catch and start spinning. The replacement blades for Ryoba saws are usually not that expensive so I personally would probably not worry about transferring the blade between the handle and the kerfing plane so I would just drill out the hole.

One other thing to look at. Measure the screw that holds the saw blade to the handle. Did they use an M10 and just rely on the slot to hold it in position? Just wondering if their screw has a tight fit.

I did find some coupling nuts with 11mm OD at McMaster. If too long, you can cut them down to size with your new hacksaw and dress the end with a file.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Finding the center of the hole to within 1-thou is easy using Thale's Theorem. Doing it on such a small hole is rather difficult, and I'll be honest, I've never done it with such a small diameter circle before, so you may be right in that it may prove difficult. What I did to create the above SVG was instead of use Thale's Theorem because the holes are so small, is to instead use calipers to measure the distances from edges. Knowing the diameter of the circle and the position of the edge of the circle means we can know the position of the center of the circle simply by halving the diameter.

You are also correct that physically finding the center by using a drill press would be easier (especially if it has a laser sighting system), but it's not impossible without a drill press.

I did choose to use the Ryoba because of its price and if this experiment goes well, I will absolutely buy another Ryoba so I can have two separate tools instead of having to convert the tool mid-task after cutting the kerf.

The coupling nuts sound like an interesting idea.

I am curious … what can my new hacksaw do? I know I should expect it to cut brass like butter, but can it cut hardened steel? What kind of metals have you cut with your Lennox hacksaw?


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> I am curious … what can my new hacksaw do? I know I should expect it to cut brass like butter, but can it cut hardened steel? What kind of metals have you cut with your Lennox hacksaw?
> 
> - DevinT


That is completely dependent on what blades you have for it, and your ability to tension it correctly. On hacksaw blades its mainly tooth count, though the plate thickness may change between. Its similar to how on a bandsaw you want to keep 3 or 4 teeth in the material. usually they come in 14 TPI or so to 32ish dependent on brand. I probably use 24t the most. But I have one blade filed down progressive for recutting saw teeth. For hardened steel I use a grinder with cutoff wheel or my metal chop saw. I don't need the extra workout of trying to cut hardened steel(or stainless) by hand.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

A drill bit with its conical point will naturally auto-center in a slightly smaller hole as long as it is thick enough or a gap under it for the tip to seat all the way in.

I have cut tool steel with my hacksaw and I cut nuts and bolts all the time so a coupling nut should not be too difficult as long as you have a vise (or other creative clamping) to hold it well enough. Keep an extra blade or two on hand and maybe some with different TPI. Nothing worse than trying to make a long cut with a worn out blade. The hardest part is often getting it started if it is case hardened but the corner of a file can be used to cut a notch if necessary. A Dremel with cutting disk would work too for nuts and bolts. Often, If I am working on something large, I will opt for an angle grinder with a cutoff disk.

I don't remember if you have any kind of vise on your work table but that would be a high priority for me considering the kinds of things you are working on.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Rich… so you want me to rip the spoilboard off my MFT top just to put a caliper on some holes to satisfy you?

If I didn't have a newborn to care for and no time for such stupidness as placating you, I'd be down there in a heartbeat ripping ******************** apart just to prove a point. But …

You know what?

I'm too old for that ********************. In fact, I suspect you're too old for this ******************** too. Why are you so GD combative … ALL THE F* TIME? Like, what's your major malfunction (a reference to a movie quote)? It's getting tiring.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

> I am curious … what can my new hacksaw do? I know I should expect it to cut brass like butter, but can it cut hardened steel? What kind of metals have you cut with your Lennox hacksaw?
> 
> - DevinT
> 
> ...


Woah … that's something I had not considered … using a hacksaw to cut saw teeth! How does it compare to using a saw file? Presumably you did that in a saw vise, correct?

My neighbor had a metal chop saw. Most impressive thing I've ever seen. Chopped through 1/2" steel angle stock in one quick swift motion with zero sparks. Compared to my co-worker that cut the very same angle stock with a chop-saw style cut-off wheel and sparks were flying and the motion was neither quick nor swift.

My neighbor since moved away, and I didn't get a chance to ask him what kind of saw that was that could chop through 1/2" angle stock. So it's called a metal chop saw? or is it just a special blade in a regular chop saw?


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

> A drill bit with its conical point will naturally auto-center in a slightly smaller hole as long as it is thick enough or a gap under it for the tip to seat all the way in.
> 
> I have cut tool steel with my hacksaw and I cut nuts and bolts all the time so a coupling nut should not be too difficult as long as you have a vise (or other creative clamping) to hold it well enough. Keep an extra blade or two on hand and maybe some with different TPI. Nothing worse than trying to make a long cut with a worn out blade. The hardest part is often getting it started if it is case hardened but the corner of a file can be used to cut a notch if necessary. A Dremel with cutting disk would work too for nuts and bolts. Often, If I am working on something large, I will opt for an angle grinder with a cutoff disk.
> 
> ...


I can't wait to try the Lennox. The only hacksaw I own currently (which will probably be thrown in the trash when the Lennox arrives) took 2 hours to cut through 1/4" solid brass rod. Pathetic.

However, from both SMP and yourself, it sounds like I need to get a Dremel with cutoff wheel or a metal chop saw.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> I am curious … what can my new hacksaw do? I know I should expect it to cut brass like butter, but can it cut hardened steel? What kind of metals have you cut with your Lennox hacksaw?
> 
> - DevinT
> 
> ...


we use those saws all the time at work for cutting threaded rod.they run at about half the rpm's as a regualar miter saw and use carbide blades with a negative rake.much better for cutting steel,no sparks and dust.the one we use is a makita and we also have a large saw made by jet that uses coolant..


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

I've thought about a metal chopsaw but for the rare use I would have I would not want to store it. An angle grinder works but is just not as controlled of a cut. I HAVE though about making one of these for my angle grinder.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> Woah … that s something I had not considered … using a hacksaw to cut saw teeth! How does it compare to using a saw file? Presumably you did that in a saw vise, correct?
> 
> - DevinT


You use the saw to get the spacing exact and to "save" the fine edge of the saw file from wearing out prematurely. I just followed Pauls video, first time took a while but the next time it only took me maybe 10-15 minutes(already had the guide)






Um, a "chop saw" with no sparks sound more like he had a industrial shear? Those will run you minimum $1k to cut 1/2" bar. No an actual cheap metal chop saw (cutoff saw) just has a cut off wheel mounted on a saw that won't catch on fire and melt all the plastic like a woodcutting chop saw would.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

For Rich…


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

The next time Rich posts, I predict he will simply try to say I forced the measurement (untrue) or that I wasn't trying to hit that mark when making the holes (also untrue), or that the mark I hit was arbitrarily decided by run-out (may be true, but then how did I repeat it? over and over and over? ... technique MF! TECHNIQUE!)


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> I ve thought about a metal chopsaw but for the rare use I would have I would not want to store it. An angle grinder works but is just not as controlled of a cut. I HAVE though about making one of these for my angle grinder.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My chop saw only cuts so big. So when I need bigger I stick my angle grinder into this dohickey. it helps hold the blade at 90 and lets you follow a line like a circular saw.

https://www.harborfreight.com/safety-guard-for-angle-grinders-61680.html

they also sell some chop saw stands on amazon etc

https://www.amazon.com/Grinder-Support-Bracket-Cutting-Machine/dp/B08GC42TSW/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?adgrpid=116642392235&dchild=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIzLqioqT38gIVwbyGCh0EQw06EAAYASAAEgJxZPD_BwE&hvadid=489270991625&hvdev=m&hvlocphy=9031264&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=b&hvrand=6983855432663476322&hvtargid=kwd-297032900309&hydadcr=28084_11662537&keywords=angle+grinder+cutting+stand&qid=1631375756&sr=8-3


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

> Woah … that s something I had not considered … using a hacksaw to cut saw teeth! How does it compare to using a saw file? Presumably you did that in a saw vise, correct?
> 
> - DevinT
> 
> ...


I wouldn't put it past him to own a $1k machine to cut metal. Here's what I know:

It looked like a chop saw.
He used it like a chop saw.
He put not one, not two, but *THREE* pieces of 1/2" angle stock into the thing at the same time and chopped through all three in under 1s with zero sparks or debris.

When he was lining things up, right before he turned on the machine, he said "now, this could get exciting" and after the cut he proclaimed, "well, that was boring"

I was thinking to myself… *REALLY?!* Because to me that was *very* exciting being able to chop through 3 seconds of 1/2" angle stock at the same time in under 1s.

I'm text messaging him right now to find out what kind of saw/blade that was. Because from what I'm hearing, this is apparently not normal to be able to do this (to him it was like he was making a peanut butter and jelly sandwich… just very matter of fact about it).


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> Woah … that s something I had not considered … using a hacksaw to cut saw teeth! How does it compare to using a saw file? Presumably you did that in a saw vise, correct?
> 
> - DevinT
> 
> ...


Hmm maybe he has what Pottz is talking about. One that actually has a metal cutting blade. The cheap ones at Harbor Freight and Home Depot etc just use cutoff wheels. Its a lot cheaper to make and upkeep for a normal joe.


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## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

> I wouldn t put it past him to own a $1k machine to cut metal. Here s what I know:
> 
> It looked like a chop saw.
> He used it like a chop saw.
> ...


I would guess a horizontal bandsaw with no sparks. Or a power hacksaw. Something with a blade as opposed to an abrasive wheel.

Regarding cutting tool steel with your hacksaw, it depends. Basically, for cutting anything with anything, you can cut stuff that is softer than your blade. Otherwise, your blade will be what's getting worn down. You can probably cut most tool steel depending on how it was hardened and tempered but not easily. If it's annealed, definitely. My advice is to try and see. A dremel with a cutoff wheel or an angle grinder with same are good companions to your hacksaw. Also, hacksaws don't generally wear out, the blades do. You may not have needed a new saw, just a blade. I would order a pack of extra blades because eventually you will need them. I use the Lennox blades and they work just fine.

*EDIT to add:* Wear safety glasses when cutting metal with abrasive wheels. I've been to the ER more than once with particulate in my eye that I couldn't get out with an eyewash station…

Regarding runout, it's ever-present in any rotating tool or rotating anything. Runout and price are directly inversely proportional for the most part. If there are bearings and a spindle, neither are perfect so there's two sources of runout. The collet holding your bit, also not perfect there's another. Your bit? You guessed it, not perfect. And because of the nature of it, the runout at the cut increases the longer the bit is. So use the shortest bits you can and chuck them up as close as possible to the collet to minimize it. From what little I know of the origin though, it's pretty much a non-issue for all practical purposes. However an internal runout spec on the spindle of .0005" is quite a lot. But, I suppose when the majority of your cutting is done via interpolation, runout isn't of critical importance


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Rich… so you want me to rip the spoilboard off my MFT top just to put a caliper on some holes to satisfy you?
> 
> If I didn t have a newborn to care for and no time for such stupidness as placating you, I d be down there in a heartbeat ripping ******************** apart just to prove a point. But …
> 
> ...


Don't hold back, LOL. Tell me how you really feel.

I'm not trying to be mean, but I have the technical background and experience in the industry to see, shall we say "flaws," in some of your statements.

At no time have I insulted you as a person, it's just your wayward ideas that I address. You could learn something from that.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Here are the aforementioned hinges which I plan to use for the board that will clamp the saw plate to restrict movement on the Z-axis while the dowel pins restrict X and Y axes, working together to make a rigid plane.

These hinges snap shut with some force. I pinched my finger in one and it gave me a blood blister. The cabinet they were on was actually pretty annoying because the doors would slam shut with a very loud clack. Enough to wake someone in the next room even. It could be heard through to the floors above/below even. I didn't know when or how these hinges would come in handy but I salvaged them anyway (just threw them in my big glass jar of left over fasteners). I think they would be perfect.

I might not even need anything else but the hinges to restrict movement on the Z-axis. I will probably add some thumb screws to lock it down though. Wonder if there is a way to make thumb screws captive (one less part to lose - which is why I want to use the hinges in the first place; can't loose the part if it permanently attached).


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

There was a story..about a conversation between Jimmie Kemper and George Pickett….
"You have the ability to turn the trivial into the momentous , and complicate the simplest ideas…ever think of running for Congress, George?"


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

On *that* note, I had a very interesting idea.

Take some large bar stock, pocket out a 1/8" deep hole in some material using Shaper, epoxy one end of some short length of bar stock into said material, switch to a metal cutting bit in the Shaper, cut the same circle you used to create the pocket with decreasing levels of offset cutting from the outside of the circle (where previously you cut from the inside of the circle to creat the pocket).

I've just turned the Shaper into a metal lathe that can only create dowels or stepped bushings.

Curious if this idea would work, I bought some lathe bar stock on eBay:

6" of 1/2" dia. 6063 AL
6" of 1/2" dia. C360 brass
12" of 1/2" dia. C1018 steel

The aluminum is so soft it's not even a test of anything other than the process. If it looks to be working, then I will move to the brass. If the aluminum went well, I will expect the brass to go well.

If the aluminum and brass go well, I will expect no problems with cutting the steel, and based on my experience of cutting steel with the Origin, I do believe the epoxy will hold fine. I usually use Bessey clamps with 1250 lbs of clamping force when cutting steel and that does fine. The epoxy I use has over 3,000 PSI holding strength (not sure if that applies to all types of force), so should definitely be sufficient. However I am not a trade machinist so we'll see if I run into problems. I do know one thing though, it is sure going to be fun to try this.

Never heard of anyone trying to use a router as a lathe


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

If this idea works, I have a way of creating the stepped bushings I need for another project. I know I know, just buy a metal lathe. I want one. I just don't have the room for one right now. And I don't know what brand to buy though I have my eye on an American made beauty from the company named Sherline. Or is basically Grizzly the go-to?


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

My friend got back to me about what chop saw we used to cut the steel angle stock.

ASIDE: The angle stock for this

He says it was a Trajan Q700 using the blade that it came with, from sawblade.com


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

The Lennox has arrived. So many people have recommended this precise hacksaw and so on your recommendation have finally pulled the trigger and it is here. Yay.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Wow! That's some high tension!


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> My friend got back to me about what chop saw we used to cut the steel angle stock.
> 
> ASIDE: The angle stock for this
> 
> ...


thats the type of saw im talking about,made to cut solid bar stock,we cut threaded rod from 3/8"-1-1/2" with ours.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> Wow! That's some high tension!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Almost as much tension as in this thread!


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Oooo, ouch!


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## corelz125 (Sep 23, 2015)

I remember you mention your scared of a grinder. a Sawz all with a metal blade gets the job done with no sparks or flying metal splinters. Kenny no more er for me when there's metal in my eye. They didn't get it out a few times for me now it's right to the ophthalmologist


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> Oooo, ouch!
> 
> - DevinT


i live for tension,it makes me feel alive !!!!! some can handle it and some…....well just cry.let me just say,dev's no cry baby ?


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

corelz,

I'm warming up to the idea of buying/using an angle grinder.

1. I get to make more and louder noise for my neighbors
2. I get to embrace all the things I see people using them for
3. I get to have some fun with danger

The fear is subsiding as I slowly find more and more people that are unafraid of using one and they share their tips of how to ensure safety.

Though, how cool is the Trajan Q700 though? I mean, now that I know the model and cost of the saw my friend used to cut that steel angle stock, I really want one ;D It was cool as hell and the cut was super clean and fast. Kind of makes a grinder look useless-but I know that can't be right, because so many people use grinders. Is it the case that grinders have other uses or is it the case that not everybody knows about steel cutting saws/saw-blades?


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

as far as the trojan saw do some research,ive never heard of that one and it sounds cheap,as in you get what you pay for.blades for those saws run about 80-100 bucks.but for cutting steel their the way to go compared to carborundum blades.but you still will need a grinder for some things.used properly they are totally safe.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I am not a cry baby, I go into attack mode.



> Rich… so you want me to rip the spoilboard off my MFT top just to put a caliper on some holes to satisfy you?
> 
> If I didn t have a newborn to care for and no time for such stupidness as placating you, I d be down there in a heartbeat ripping ******************** apart just to prove a point. But …
> 
> ...


Thanks for giving me the go-ahead to not hold back (as-if I needed your permission).

You're not trying to be "mean" then you are failing, especially when you're all "not trying to be mean, but …" what kind of credentials do you have for you "technical background" and why is your technical background worth more than my technical background? Just how technical is your background? Did you ever participate in the U.S. Physics Team competitions? Did you get a degree? Did you ever spend 30 years pioneering a new mathematic formula that breaks computational barriers that were set in the 1960's as-described by Donald Knuth? Did you pioneer any Internet protocols? Did you get recognized by the governor of California in grade school for your intellectual prowess? Did you fly to Hong Kong to work on contract programming projects? Did you work for the government? Did you work in the public sector? Did you work in the private sector?

No?

I've done all those things and I'm not even scratching the surface.

You're so superior, why don't you list your qualifications to come in here AND follow me to the Origin website and continue your charades there. Don't even pretend to not be BoomerRetailTherapy on Shaper's community. You're as obvious as can be.

ASIDE: You gave me permission to not hold back. I'm taking that permission (which I don't need) and running with it.

I have the technical experience and background to know that half (likely more than half) of the crap that comes out of your keyboard is valueless in relationship building, making friends, or being amenable.

None (and I mean *none*) of the things I have said in this thread or to you in this comment now have been ad-hominem attacks.

You've not insulted me? How about what you just posted on the Origin website:

"That's not a lathe, that's a mill and this is all proof that you have absolutely no experience operating either safely. Make sure your insurance premiums are paid up."

Yeah, that's you. Could I be wrong? Sure. You'll probably deny it, but I'm going to sleep better at night knowing that it's not just me. I've been watching you on the Shaper website for months interacting like this with everybody you come into contact except the Shaper staff like Sam, who for some reason seem to like some of your content.

But, please, go ahead and claim to be the victim here because I supposedly "insulted you as a person" (what? by quoting a line from a movie that my Father probably banally said to me a thousand times and I have heard my friends use in a banal tone for over 30 years? Pffft, please, that kind of fake victimhood disgusts me and the fact that you pull it out now when I am ready to climb down your throat is disgusting)

Sir, kindly, there is nothing I can learn from you.

To others that have to read this, I am sorry. Rich should be sorry too, but he won't be. He's just going to continue doing this here and elsewhere to myself and others.

Now, perhaps we can get on with the thread.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

> as far as the trojan saw do some research,ive never heard of that one and it sounds cheap,as in you get what you pay for.blades for those saws run about 80-100 bucks.but for cutting steel their the way to go compared to carborundum blades.but you still will need a grinder for some things.used properly they are totally safe.
> 
> - pottz


OK, I like the "totally safe" part. You're making me feel warm and cozy about giving it a try.

And hey … sparks are cool ;D (and don't worry, I always wear full PPE)


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> as far as the trojan saw do some research,ive never heard of that one and it sounds cheap,as in you get what you pay for.blades for those saws run about 80-100 bucks.but for cutting steel their the way to go compared to carborundum blades.but you still will need a grinder for some things.used properly they are totally safe.
> 
> - pottz
> 
> ...


yes lets continue in a calm rational manner for what this thread was started for.anyone that cant continue without trashing someones opinions should perhaps avois this thread.

now yes dev grinders are nothing to be afraid of,ive got a couple 4-1/2 that ive used for cutting stone to grinding or cutting metal.i sell hundreds of metal cutting blades for these small grinders everyday.there very versatile.get one,their very cheap around 60-80 bucks.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

OOOOOooooooo…... stone! YES!

I've been questing for how to shape stone. Grinders can do that too? Sweet! OK, I'm sold on the value of grinders now (because I've seen what's involved for cutting stone and it's rather involved … a hose to run water on the stone while a saw slowly crawls through the stuff-requires a bit more shop space, or yard space rather, than I have at the moment).

OK, not trying to get off topic, but that's cool!


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## corelz125 (Sep 23, 2015)

These days there's a lot of tasks you can use a grinder for. I find it safer than using a table saw or jointer. If you wear safety glasses and a face shield a leather gloves you'll be fine. I know people say gloves are dangerous but leather gloves saved my hands a few times from a grinder.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I feel the same way about gloves. My dad, grandfather, and great grandfather all worked for the railroad and so I always loved Union Pacific railroad gloves (specifically the ones with green trim, medium size, hard to get ahold of though). I scoff at the idea of a tool grabbing a railroad glove and pulling it in. They're thick leather gloves, if a router bit touched it, it would shred before it got pulled (am I wrong? I've never tested this theory, and I don't think I will be anytime soon).

So, ... what about the "kick" I often hear about as the potential death-blow from a grinder? How to best prepare for the kick? Is it stance? Angle of attack? Grip? All of the above?


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> Oooo, ouch!
> 
> - DevinT
> 
> ...


"The suspense is terrible! I hope that it will last." - Oscar Wilde


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> OOOOOooooooo…... stone! YES!
> 
> I ve been questing for how to shape stone. Grinders can do that too? Sweet! OK, I m sold on the value of grinders now (because I ve seen what s involved for cutting stone and it s rather involved … a hose to run water on the stone while a saw slowly crawls through the stuff-requires a bit more shop space, or yard space rather, than I have at the moment).
> 
> ...


I have a mini brick saw, which is basically a small circular saw that uses diamond blades and is water resistant. It has a plastic tube that uses a siphon to stream water onto the blade. The main problem is its one of those high torque motors with no break so it just keeps on spinning, cut into my concrete a couple times when it runs away. But yeah the diamond blades and water can cut all kinds of stuff. If you get the slotted blades you can cut curves. I have a "combo blade" in mine right now. Its continuous blade but has a lip around the edge that is grooved. it works well for cuts and slight curves or shaping bricks and stone etc.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Stone hand plane, here we come! ^_^ (am I kidding? we may never know … my appetite for new, interesting, and dangerous is insatiable since learning what I am capable of)


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> I feel the same way about gloves. My dad, grandfather, and great grandfather all worked for the railroad and so I always loved Union Pacific railroad gloves (specifically the ones with green trim, medium size, hard to get ahold of though). I scoff at the idea of a tool grabbing a railroad glove and pulling it in. They re thick leather gloves, if a router bit touched it, it would shred before it got pulled (am I wrong? I ve never tested this theory, and I don t think I will be anytime soon).
> 
> So, ... what about the "kick" I often hear about as the potential death-blow from a grinder? How to best prepare for the kick? Is it stance? Angle of attack? Grip? All of the above?
> 
> - DevinT


I have a couple stories.

story 1: I was working with a guy who was a pretty "tough guy". He cussed alot, nothing ever offended him, never seemed scared of anything. Well he had a part time job at a tree service in the early mornings to make ends meet. One day he came into work a bit late and looked like he had seen a ghost. He was mexican and he was pale white. I asked him what the heck happenedd as he was staring blankly off into space. Apparently a guy he was working with at the tree service left his gloves on when they were loading branches into the shredder. It was one of those professional tree trimming trucks with the big shredder in the back. The glove got snagged on a branch and pulled the guy into the shredder head first.

Story 2:
When I was 16, I got a Toyota truck that I went to get lifted and a tube bumper installed at one of those "Offroad Wherehouses". I came back before my truck was done but I saw a guy sitting on a stool at the back of my truck grinding some metal with a grinder. I didnt really have any tools back then so I thought it was pretty awesome to see this giant shower of sparks! I walked up behind him and said "thats a pretty cool tool!". He , still grinding away, says "yeah it will cut through anything, but you've GOT to be careful with it". And at this point it became like a scene of a movie, he slowly turns around to face me, and says "You've got to wear safety goggles or you'll put your eye out!" , and in seemingly slow motion one of his eyes looked at me and the other one slowly wandered off as he turned to face me and I could tell it was a glass eye!


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

> I feel the same way about gloves. My dad, grandfather, and great grandfather all worked for the railroad and so I always loved Union Pacific railroad gloves (specifically the ones with green trim, medium size, hard to get ahold of though). I scoff at the idea of a tool grabbing a railroad glove and pulling it in. They re thick leather gloves, if a router bit touched it, it would shred before it got pulled (am I wrong? I ve never tested this theory, and I don t think I will be anytime soon).
> 
> So, ... what about the "kick" I often hear about as the potential death-blow from a grinder? How to best prepare for the kick? Is it stance? Angle of attack? Grip? All of the above?
> 
> ...


Jeezus! OK, good story to properly scare me. So it's not always the fast moving thing you have to worry about that will pull your glove in, but the slow moving thing (tree branch) that could pull the glove (and your hand) into the danger zone.

Safety goggles. Got it! What exactly is it that puts the eye out? The spark or the debris? And why don't we worry about said sparks and/or debris hurting other parts of our body? Does it not hurt when it hits bare skin? I've often wondered that when I see showers of sparks hitting a guys arm when he's using the grinder. Is he just bad-ass? Or does it just look scarier than it actually is?


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> These days there s a lot of tasks you can use a grinder for. I find it safer than using a table saw or jointer. If you wear safety glasses and a face shield a leather gloves you ll be fine. I know people say gloves are dangerous but leather gloves saved my hands a few times from a grinder.
> 
> - corelz125


gloves,depends on what your doing.sometimes yes gloves may be a saftey hazzard,but most of the time they protect your digits.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

holey ******************** people can we remember what this thread was even about ? why do these threads go so far of track always.ill tell ya,it's about devin wanting to create a kerf saw ! id have blocked some of you a long time ago…...no ill resind that,you all know me well enough that id argue this too death !!!! but cmon people can we not debate something sensibly without the personal attacks always ? this rich vs devin crap needs too end.maybe you should each take a step back,take a deep breath and maybe listen to what you both know and share your knowledge rather than trash each other which results in a pile of crap!!!!!!im not gonna point fingers,but figure it out…...please !!!!!!peace…..........


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## corelz125 (Sep 23, 2015)

Most grinders come with a handle that screws in different positions. That helps with the kick back. The sparks are annoying. The small metal shavings are what end up in your eye and are hard to get out.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> You've not insulted me? How about what you just posted on the Origin website:
> 
> "That's not a lathe, that's a mill and this is all proof that you have absolutely no experience operating either safely. Make sure your insurance premiums are paid up."
> 
> Yeah, that's you. Could I be wrong? Sure. You'll probably deny it, but I'm going to sleep better at night knowing that it's not just me. I've been watching you on the Shaper website for months interacting like this with everybody you come into contact except the Shaper staff like Sam, who for some reason seem to like some of your content.


You're right. I'm going to deny I posted anything like that on the Origin web site because I don't participate there. But frankly, from what I've seen, it doesn't sound like bad advice…LOL

It's highly disingenuous of you to pull a stunt like that. Ascribing a fake quote to me then saying I'll probably deny it. You really should be ashamed of using shoddy tactics like that. It speaks volumes about character.

Saul would be proud though. You've learned well, Grasshopper.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> Jeezus! OK, good story to properly scare me. So it s not always the fast moving thing you have to worry about that will pull your glove in, but the slow moving thing (tree branch) that could pull the glove (and your hand) into the danger zone.
> 
> Safety goggles. Got it! What exactly is it that puts the eye out? The spark or the debris? And why don t we worry about said sparks and/or debris hurting other parts of our body? Does it not hurt when it hits bare skin? I ve often wondered that when I see showers of sparks hitting a guys arm when he s using the grinder. Is he just bad-ass? Or does it just look scarier than it actually is?
> 
> - DevinT


So I have been working metal and welding for decades. My welding helmet is an auto-darkening type that is adjustable in various ways. It also has a "grinding" setting so that the brighter sparks don't trigger the shade. So I basically always use my welding helmet and welding gloves when grinding. My welding gloves go partway up my arm. I don't usually wear my welding jacket when grinding. However, I do get te occasional hot spark on my arm. I also have way too many shirts and jeans that have the little pin holes from grinding sparks.

Those little red hot embers will put a eye out real quick. Basically like getting your retina branded by a tiny branding iron. They don't really bother my skin. But I don't wear pants or shirts I care about. Think of them like the little campfire embers that pop and shoot out of the fire, inly these are made of steel instead of wood. Also don't shoot the sparks into dry grassy areas. Don't ask me how I know.

Another reason to wear safety glasses of some sort: The cutoff wheels can shatter and shoot shards of spinning cutuff wheel across the room. Even the little dremel ones can be dangerous.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> Jeezus! OK, good story to properly scare me. So it s not always the fast moving thing you have to worry about that will pull your glove in, but the slow moving thing (tree branch) that could pull the glove (and your hand) into the danger zone.
> 
> Safety goggles. Got it! What exactly is it that puts the eye out? The spark or the debris? And why don t we worry about said sparks and/or debris hurting other parts of our body? Does it not hurt when it hits bare skin? I ve often wondered that when I see showers of sparks hitting a guys arm when he s using the grinder. Is he just bad-ass? Or does it just look scarier than it actually is?
> 
> ...


damn staright man,if you dont wear the proper safety gear your just a damn fool wanting a dissablity check each month.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Question, as I may have missed a detail…..are you planning to push or pull the kerf plane along?

I MIGHT try the steps down to my shop…as I have a 24" long scrap of 1×6 Ash….that I THINK I can resaw…..will see how going down the stairs works out, first…..However, my "Kerfing Plane" happens to be my 8-1/4" Tablesaw….followed by a Disston D8, 5-1/2 ppi thumbhole saw….goal would be to have a book match pair of 3/8" x 5-1/2" x 24" Ash boards…..and then see about making a small box from that…..


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

i guees we could take this to full blown riot status ? sound cool anyone ? perhaps not!


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

bandit: pull

Bookmatching would be an ultimate goal. Dad picked out some curly poplar at the store when he was visiting. He said to do something with it and bring it down in December when I visit. Thinking about bookmarking it if I can get my resaw game on-point with a Kerfing plane.

I saw thinking what kind of handle to add to the plane and was googling most expensive saws. Looks like Disston is it at $4k+ for a saw but I like the thumbhole Disston handles and the tabel saw handles (open handle). How do you like that thumb hole? Is it a resounding difference from those without?


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Worked quite nicely the last time I used it…..helps when the second hand helps out….

The "Tablesaw" I use has a motor…..I have to joint all edges, so the board does not lean during the cut.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

> You've not insulted me? How about what you just posted on the Origin website:
> 
> "That's not a lathe, that's a mill and this is all proof that you have absolutely no experience operating either safely. Make sure your insurance premiums are paid up."
> 
> ...


LMAO! What happened to "tl;dr" ... decided to go back and read it after all? You're a hoot! Keep 'em coming.

Fake quote? I assure you it's a very real quote and this person sounds like you, and if it's not you then you have a doppelgänger that also happens to hang around the Shaper crowd. Kind of strange though that you have a Shaper, you sell them, but you don't participate in the community? Shame. There's some really great folks on there (minus your doppelgänger of course).

Didn't think it was disingenuous at all … unless you call deductive reasoning "calculating"-I was just following the scent. Smelled like a Rich, thought it was you.

And yes, not letting your insurance lapse is a good thing. We can agree upon that.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Ok…managed to try the shop, just until the knee said enough…slab of Ash..









7/8" thick, just under 6" wide….maybe 20" long….set up the first part of the Dungeon Style Resaw..









Space between the blade and the fence….~ 7/16" ( maybe a 1/16" over 3/8"?) Blade is about 1-1/2" above the deck..
Slab is run through with the same face against the fence, all four edges…









This end was a bit tricky…the other was cupped a bit..









Should yield 2 slabs at ~ 3/8" thick once planed flat….Handsaw is next…









Ready to start? Ok,, come back in 5 minutes…









Note all the sawdust I am making? I did try a D-115, 7ppi to see IF it cut any faster than the 5-1/2ppi D8…









Nope….will go back to the rip saw next trip to the shop….this was about it as the knee wasn't very happy….

Plan would be to cut down about 1/2 way….turn the slab over (end for end?) and saw down until I meet up with the first cut…..

And that is how I do such things in the Dungeon Wood Shop…YMMV.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Excellent!


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## MikeB_UK (Jul 27, 2015)

> now yes dev grinders are nothing to be afraid of,ive got a couple 4-1/2 that ive used for cutting stone to grinding or cutting metal.i sell hundreds of metal cutting blades for these small grinders everyday.there very versatile.get one,their very cheap around 60-80 bucks.
> 
> - pottz


Grinders scare the crap out of me.

While we were taking a wall down my dad was grinding a brick out, it caught his T-Shirt and sliced him from shoulder to elbow in an eyeblink.
Cauterised the wound as it went so no blood and it just cut shallow enough so it missed the muscle, but a huge cut - his arm looked like a butterflied chicken.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

You want to see a scary angle grinder incident, look for a Stumpy Nubs video about him using the King Arthur Lancelot chain saw carver. He almost lost a hand. Of course he was using it incorrectly. The chain saw style carving disk is designed to be used vertically like a cutoff disk. He was using it like you would a side grinding disk or flap sander and he angled it wrong and it took off on him. I don't think that he ever acknowledged his real mistake in his video. It is a good thing is was wearing a thick leather apron or he might have given himself bariatric surgery too.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> You want to see a scary angle grinder incident, look for a Stumpy Nubs video about him using the King Arthur Lancelot chain saw carver. He almost lost a hand. Of course he was using it incorrectly. The chain saw style carving disk is designed to be used vertically like a cutoff disk. He was using it like you would a side grinding disk or flap sander and he angled it wrong and it took off on him. I don t think that he ever acknowledged his real mistake in his video. It is a good thing is was wearing a thick leather apron or he might have given himself bariatric surgery too.
> 
> - Lazyman


yeah ive watched that video,ill never use a chain saw carver.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

See? Heavy leather aprons! Like the one that Gunny bought me for my birthday. I don't even use the pockets on the thing, I treat it like PPE more than I treat it like something to keep sawdust off me. I know one person lamented the position of the pockets on the Hide & Drink apron, but I've never had a problem with them filling with sawdust because I don't use them (I have a utility belt with side pouches for that).


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Some progress! I was able to get the screw out of the Ryoba. This changes things dramatically.










What we've got here is a 10.96mm diameter bushing 1mm tall with an M6 machine screw on top. Below the shoulder, the diameter is 12.9mm set into a plastic knurled knob.

HokieKen was dead-on when he told me that generally subtract .04mm to .07mm from the hole size for a dowel that will snugly fit the hole.

Ok, so now things just got a lot easier and cheaper to produce this design by using more parts from the saw.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Close ups of the bolt


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

To prove to myself it's an M6 before i go to the hardware store to buy M6 threaded inserts, I sunk a known-M6 into the Ryoba handle and it fit like a glove. Perfect diameter and thread pitch. Wunderbar!

So step 1 is now to just shoot an M6 threaded insert into some wood and then we only have to worry about the method by which we secure the hang-hole.

I got the idea that if I simply put an 8.96mm diameter dowel into a small block of wood wide enough for a wood screw on either side of the dowel, I can use the axis of rotation about the M6 screw to guarantee that there is at least one position on the right edge where I can affix the dowel block to make it a perfect mount.

That's just an idea. I have to flesh it out and give it some thought. It's not my favorite idea.


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## MikeB_UK (Jul 27, 2015)

> HokieKen was dead-on when he told me that generally subtract .04mm to .07mm from the hole size for a dowel that will snugly fit the hole.
> - DevinT


Yeah, for a drunk man in a cape he does randomly, correctly, guess a lot of technical machining stuff.
It's almost like he knows what he's talking about, but naah.



> To prove to myself it's an M6 before i go to the hardware store to buy M6 threaded inserts, I sunk a known-M6 into the Ryoba handle and it fit like a glove. Perfect diameter and thread pitch. Wunderbar!
> - DevinT


And a big shout out to Joseph Whitworth


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I did it (I think)!

I found a thumb screw with a 9mm diameter shoulder

The shoulder on that screw should fit the hang-hole on the Ryoba-style Vaughan Bear Saw perfectly.

A couple M6 threaded inserts and we're on our way. I may not even have to use the Shaper at all!

*EDIT*: [Narrator's Voice] The Shaper will still be used


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> To prove to myself it's an M6 before i go to the hardware store to buy M6 threaded inserts, I sunk a known-M6 into the Ryoba handle and it fit like a glove. Perfect diameter and thread pitch. Wunderbar!
> 
> So step 1 is now to just shoot an M6 threaded insert into some wood and then we only have to worry about the method by which we secure the hang-hole.
> 
> ...


FYI, if you go to Lowes, in the screw section, there are little boards that have a bunch of different threaded rods and threaded inserts with size and pitch. You can bring in stuff you have to try out.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I usually do that at OSH because they are maniacs about keeping things extreme organized


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

By George, I think I've got it. A dead-simple approach to getting bang-on accuracy with respect to relative location of the handle hole and hang hole for mounting the blade. A solution that I am ashamed that I should have thought of earlier but just came to me after eliminating a whole host of more complicated approaches.

I think you'll like this.

Take 2 boards that are 12" x 12" x 3/4" (or whatever thickness but they have to be the same thickness).

Put an M6 threaded insert into board A near the lower-left corner.

Use the thumb screw that holds the handle to the saw to secure the blade to the board.

The blade can now freely rotate atop board A on one axis about the screw.

Take board B and place an edge 1" from the right side (opposite the threaded insert) of board A.

Rotate the blade until the teeth are slightly lower than the desired angle.

Put an M6 threaded insert behind the hang hole and secure it with the other thumb screw.

Now apply wood glue between the two boards and push them together.

Closing the 1" gap to join the boards must be done by rotating the blade about both screws.

Clamp the boards up.

Take the saw plate off, wipe off any glue that got on it. Let the boards dry.

Now we can cut the shape of the plane from the oversized canvas which has two M6 threaded inserts perfectly spaced to allow you mount the saw blade with two screws.

Simple, accurate, fault-tolerant, idiot-proof, and fast.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Thinking out-loud here, if I use a single long board and cross-cut it in the middle to make the two pieces that are temporarily separated and then re-joined together, I could get a really cool effect if I use some highly figured wood. The grain will look like it "slipped"


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

The "slipped grain" look would of course require an end-grain glue-up.

Stumpy says end-grain glue-ups are stronger. I say that it would require precise joinery and ample glue to repeat those results as he has done, so that kind of raises the bar for level of difficulty for folks (wanted it to be possible to make this without the Shaper for people that don't own one). Requiring hand planes and a shooting board to shoot the edges straight or some other tools to make sure the edges are perfectly jointable.

There is another option perhaps. I will likely go for the "slipped grain" look to experiment, but others may feel fine to just rotate the 2 boards to orient the grain how they like for the results they want.

*EDIT* or perhaps go with two completely different species for contrast? Hmm.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> The "slipped grain" look would of course require an end-grain glue-up.
> 
> Stumpy says end-grain glue-ups are stronger. I say that it would require precise joinery and ample glue to repeat those results as he has done, so that kind of raises the bar for level of difficulty for folks (wanted it to be possible to make this without the Shaper for people that don't own one). Requiring hand planes and a shooting board to shoot the edges straight or some other tools to make sure the edges are perfectly jointable.
> 
> ...


Just need to use a square to set your TS blade:


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## DavePolaschek (Oct 21, 2016)

If you have access to the MWTCA Gristmill magazine, you should take a look at the "Tools In Use" column in the most recent issue. It's "A Short Look at a Long Kerfing Saw" used to kerf the sides of a coffin so they can be bent.

Or, with the addition of a fence, to put a kerf in the edge of a board…


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> If you have access to the MWTCA Gristmill magazine, you should take a look at the "Tools In Use" column in the most recent issue. It's "A Short Look at a Long Kerfing Saw" used to kerf the sides of a coffin so they can be bent.
> 
> Or, with the addition of a fence, to put a kerf in the edge of a board…
> 
> ...


Pretty sure if Devin wanted to make a coffin she would just download the coffin SVG file from shaper hub.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Have I taught you nothing?

Let me fix that for you …

"Pretty sure if Devin wanted to make a coffin she would first produce coffin SVG files to upload to shaper hub."


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Hmm..have found out one item while resawing that Ash….I need a way to keep the saw kerf OPEN….as it tends to bind to the saw plate as it goes by…..Tried a 1/4" piece of scrap plywood into the top of the kerf….doubled to amount I was able to saw…in the 3 minutes I spent IN the shop, this morning…..while digging out a couple BIG screwdrivers..

3 minutes of moving the D8 ( no hyphen) rip saw….I actually matched the depth from yesterday's 6 minutes of pushing a saw…both times, the right knee said enough….them stairs are "FUN" to go up and down on…

Next trip to the shop…need to rotate the board, and start from the other end….

So..you MIGHT want to check out keeping a wedge handy while doing a resaw….


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Haven't found the perfect wedge yet.

The one and only resaw I did (for 2021 plane swap) on a board not much smaller than yours, I used popsicle sticks as wedges. That didn't go perfectly but it wasn't horrible either. One of the popsicle sticks broke off when I was wedging it in so it became a permanent obstacle to saw around, limiting my movements in the wood.

I have cedar shims but those would be too soft to use as shims (need to be able to apply a little force to their heels to wedge them in and they are way too soft for that task).

I'm guessing you were using baltic birch 1/4" plywood?

Hmmm. Now you've got me thinking about about what other industry might have low-angle metal wedges that we can repurpose. Or maybe just some hardwood shims.

/me rummages through Amazon

Here's a couple options I think are attractive …

These (below) composite shims would resist splitting and are nice and cheap while having a good low angle to nice and deep.

Nelson 8-inch Wood WC8/32/15/50 Composite Shim

If you have a little more to spend, these (below) wooden door stops look like the would work great, and I am considering buying a bunch of them because I could use them as actual door stops and they have a nice hang-rope attached for throwing them onto a peg in the shop.

Ornate Mango Wood Door Wedge - Natural Hardwood Finish


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

Yep, the composites work great. I do a lot of construction/handyman stuff and find hundreds of uses for these:
https://www.homedepot.com/p/8-in-Composite-Shim-12-Bundle-10011700/301757699


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

nah, just a scrap of plain old Luann…










I have to spread the kerf out a hair…









Seems to help things out..









However, when I get to about here, time to stop, and rotate the board around. Vise will pinch the saw, and that c clamp won't help the teeth's health, either…So, the next time I have to waddle to the shop, I'll move things around.

However, this is NOT a Rip saw…









Disston D-115, 7ppi….is more for cross cuts, like breaking down long boards into shorter ones…


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

DANGER WILL ROBINSON!

SCIENCE AHEAD!

Anyone familiar with a slotted cam system? I *really* wanted to be able to make this out of a single board instead of gluing 2 boards together.

This might look complicated, but it's actually a lot simpler than it looks. There's disc with two threaded inserts in it. One threaded insert at the center, and one off-center.

A bolt goes through a slot and into the threaded insert at the center of the circle. You can now move the circle up and down the slot while rotating it freely.










This will allow variable height adjustment for the depth of cut.










In fact, you'd have to be really ham fisted to screw this one up. No Shaper needed. Almost nothing has to be accurately positioned except the threaded insert at the center of the circle. Everything else can be wonky as hell and still work. If you can get a threaded insert into the center of that circle, you're golden! The ability to rotate the circle as it traverses the slot does the rest of the work for you. There is guaranteed to be multiple spots where you can hit the target hole without fuss. Align the hang-hole, put in the thumb screw, and go.

*EDIT* Actually, I don't even think you need to get the threaded insert centered in the circle. This approach I think is pretty idiot-proof. I can't think of a way to screw up other than if you for some reason sink the threaded inserts in at an angle, but even then I think it still should work. Not that the previous approaches wouldn't have worked, but this I think has real merit.


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## Tony1212 (Aug 26, 2013)

> Have I taught you nothing?
> 
> Let me fix that for you …
> 
> ...


This begs the question: How about wrapping the edges of the board with the Shaper tape and use the Shaper with a small bit to make the kerf exactly where you want it?


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I thought of that, but the smaller diameter the bit the less depth said bit offers.

I mean, I can get a 1/32" diameter router bit and certainly chuck it up into the Origin, but it won't go too deep because those bits are super short.

So, even if you could find a bit that was a good diameter for your saw blade (read: not too wide of a cut else the blade is sloppy in the kerf), it would be so shallow that it may have been a waste of time/effort.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Maybe just use the saw blade to cut it's own kerf….


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

That's the plan.

1. Remove handle from Ryoba
2. Mount blade in plane
3. Cut kerf
4. Remove blade from plane
5. Reattach handle
6. Pit saw to kerf

Or we could get WILD and put a saw blade into the router table.



















Would be able to just lift the router to desired height and run 4 edges along the fence


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Link to the above-pictured "router bit" (not really a router bit, but designed for a dremel or air powered cutoff device).

How dangerous do you think that would be to put that into a router spinning a 1/32" thick blade at 29k RPM?


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I was thinking to myself, "nobody would be crazy enough to mount a saw disc wheel into a trim router, right?" and "the outer edge of the wheel would be traveling crazy fast for a 1/2" disc" and "the danger level has to be off the charts, right?"

Apparently not so crazy. The disc itself is designed to go into a dremel which spins at 35k RPM. I have 1/2" diameter router bits I run at the full 29k RPM and they work well (no chipping, no burning, no tear out).

ASIDE: 1/2" dia. is the limit to what I will put into a trim router lacking variable spindle speed. 29k constant RPM is too high for anything larger.

Suddenly it doesn't sound so crazy.

I was mostly joking when I suggested it, but it might actually work. 99% certain I am not going to try it, but If I do, there's really only one way I would and that is with the router in a table and the fence providing protection should the blade go flying.


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## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

I've used those on my mill to slot screw heads Devin. You'll be fine. In my experience, the worst that will happen is the blade will catch and spin on the arbor ruining it. Like you said, the rotary tools they are designed for present much more cause for caution than a router.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

You could also see if you could get the astronauts on the next SpaceX flight to attach it to the rocket. Line it up so that when the second booster fires, the fin slices the wood at exactly the right spot. When the 3rd booster fires, the release pin will poke a whole at precisely the right spot and precisely .04391268" in diameter. Upon re-entry the plane should have a nice Sho Sugi Ban finish to complement the $20 Japanese style blade. You will then have a very nice training wheels plane to use a few times until you can saw straight.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

I've seen someone make a mini table saw using those blades. I am sure if you search for a Dremel powered table saw you'll find some of them. I have a set like that and I have used them with a flex shaft but I can't remember why. It was a little scary as I recall using it free hand.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I'm thinking that it might be the most efficient way to set a kerf line for a resaw, though it belies some assumptions.

1. Your wood needs a flat reference face (this is pretty much true for any kerfing process, be it via Kerfing Plane, table saw, or band saw-exception to hand resawing by using a straight-edge to mark a line)

2. Your router table needs to be flat (this is usually true)

It should be a relatively safe operation, compared-to say, trying to run the trim router around the edge by-hand considering (a) if you tilt you're in trouble and (b) I don't see a bearing on that "bit" so you pretty much need a fence.

I'm pretty sure my router table is flat … enough …

But I'm still going to make the Kerfing Plane and share it on the Hub (which I am told people without a Shaper Origin can still access the Shaper Hub and if they register with an e-mail address they can have designs e-mailed to them; many of the designs can be printed out and glued to a piece of wood and cut the traditional ways).


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> I am told people without a Shaper Origin can still access the Shaper Hub and if they register with an e-mail address they can have designs e-mailed to them;
> 
> - DevinT


Nope. You cannot register without the code from purchase. Trust me, I've tried


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Really? Because staff says …










*EDIT* Not sure what he means by "fill out a form" ... does he mean using carbon copy paper and snail mail? Or a digital form on a website? Unsure-but Shawn, the technical product manager at Shaper, says that there is some form that you can fill out as a non-owner that will get you access to download the files. Also, are you saying you cannot even browse? Because it was a huge(ish) topic on community.shapertools.com when they made the decision to open up browsing to the public. Definitely need to know if the hub isn't browsable to the general public without jumping through hoops first (I can understand the hoop of a simple form to get the files though-wouldn't want an unscrupulous person/company to go scraping all the files and turning everything into a mass produced product).


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> Really? Because staff says …
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh interesting, they changed it. Last time I tried to download a file, it asked me to sign in, which I could not do. Now there is a form to fill out with name and email and they will send you the files. Cool.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I tried converting several SVG's to EPS, PNG, PDF, etc. at different densities, geometries, etc. and I wasn't able to get a good print out of Image Preview on Mac.

I opened the SVG in Safari and hit Print, and it came out bang-on. I measured all the components on the paper with calipers and they were all dead-accurate. Printed with a Brother laser printer.

Don't waste your time converting the SVG to something else. Just open it in the browser and print it. Works pretty well (especially since I embed notes into all my SVG templates on the Hub so that you can use it as a paper template).


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Took almost as long to get down TO the shop, as it did to finish up the resaw..started here..









At the 3 minute mark, switched hands…









At about the 5 minute mark, was getting a bind, added a wedge, felt a pop…









Unable to saw anymore….it was done…









What the inside looks like….needs planed smooth,,,when the knee will allow it….


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

That's a lot better than my one and only resaw so far which I am hoping to improve upon










It's hard to tell. but I've got a snag like yours but mine is in the center and I didn't even bother to plane it out, I just threw it under the slab flattening sled and hit that area real quick before moving on to planing.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Oh, and those funny marks on the bottom half? Umm, these WORX clamps left their mark, let's just say.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Progress.










Looks pretty simple, right? Far from it …










Depth adjuster!










The inner workings which I have hidden are getting to be quite complex while the operation is simple. Screw blade in, turn thumb knob to adjust depth, happy kerfing.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

i expect no less dev.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Adding a depth adjuster while retaining a 100% rigid system that fits entirely within a single 3/4" thick board was a challenge, but by George, I've got it! And it's cheap as dirt to build! I think the most expensive part beside the saw blade is $4.25 from McMaster Carr.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

More progress, and the reveal … this is what I have come up with (still have to design the removable fence).



















That's the carcass (above 2 images), and here are the parts (below 2 images):



















Here is everything put together and how it functions as you operate the depth adjuster (below images):























































What would be some of the mechanical engineering terms used to describe what I have created? I'm not sure exactly how to describe this mechanism technically.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Technical details … 0.4 degree rotation at the bearing translates to 3 degree shift in the blade at ~0.66" depth


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Zooming way way in, we can see how the wood cutout with threaded insert to accept an M6 screw to capture the hang-hole shifts as depth is adjusted


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Depth of cut is adjustable from 1/8" to 5/8" (can actually go a little smaller and a little deeper, but that's the nominal range)


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

So, are there any new mechanical terms I can learn to describe what this thing is that I've created? It's been burning a hole in my brain for days and I finally got it out!


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> So, are there any new mechanical terms I can learn to describe what this thing is that I ve created? It s been burning a hole in my brain for days and I finally got it out!
> 
> - DevinT


IDK, i've heard it called a threaded adjustment rod, or barious other things. Sometimes a brand may label it with their own proprietary name like "Norris adjuster". I think on router planes its just called adjuster or adjuster rod.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

After staring at it for a while, it almost has a piston-like feel to it.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

SMP, So what you're saying is, perhaps we just call it the "Teske adjuster"


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## MikeB_UK (Jul 27, 2015)

I'm probably missing something, but it looks overly complicated - also I'm not great with engineering drawings though, is some of that to account for the slight arc as it travels?

I'd go with a fixed blade and a seperate depth stop, but I seem to recall you were using this to alter the angle of the blade instead of the depth? but I'd still do it seperate.
I'd probably then overcomplicate it  and have two adjusters, one at either end of the plane so it could be used as either a depth stop or an angle of attack (both ways) adjuster.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> SMP, So what you re saying is, perhaps we just call it the "Teske adjuster"
> 
> - DevinT


Well sure beats Teste Adjuster. At least less painful. Or yoo could make it sound complicated, like the Offset reticulating reverse compensation piston


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

The depth adjustment is just a bonus side-effect (which does account for the slight arc that is traveled), but the real beauty is that it allows the hang-hole to be in slightly different positions due to less than perfect manufacturing from the Chinese manufacturer. So that when I pick one up off the shelf and it's off by +/-0.01" it won't be a big deal because the combination of a threaded rod mounted through a bearing allows me to always hit the mark. I can change variables such as size of the cavity, length of down-rod, length of cross-pin, depth of grooves, etc. to account for certain ranges. For example, if I wanted this to support more than one blade type where the hang-holes are in different locations, no problem. Or, if I wanted the adjuster to be tilted toward the hand, that's also not a problem. I can engineer comfort and ease of assembly into one simple to use solution (not simple to design, but simple to use). The depth adjustment of the blade wasn't even the goal, the goal was to make it easy to take a blade off the shelf and slap 2 screws in it and you're good to go. Finding a way to do that while allowing for slight variance without sacrificing rigidity was the goal.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Now I'm trying to position a plane tote/knob on the thing to make it easier to push/pull


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## MikeB_UK (Jul 27, 2015)

> The depth adjustment of the blade wasn t even the goal, the goal was to make it easy to take a blade off the shelf and slap 2 screws in it and you re good to go. Finding a way to do that while allowing for slight variance without sacrificing rigidity was the goal.
> 
> - DevinT


Build it like a saw vice clamp = go cavemane


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

A saw vice clamp has adjusters, I'm just sayin' ;D


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## MikeB_UK (Jul 27, 2015)

> Now I m trying to position a plane tote/knob on the thing to make it easier to push/pull
> 
> - DevinT












I'd go for a German style horn plane - the layout of your design seems to blend fairly naturally with the shape.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Heh, funny you would mention that. I did put such a horn on the front just before you mentioned it.

Right now I'm trying to get the plane tote tilted slightly forward (more so than a normal plane) to account for the fact it cuts on the pull stroke.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

So I attached a horn, added a Stanley No 5 plane tote tilted at 32 degrees toward the front of the plane, and cut out some waste to make it easy to get your fingers in and out.










Of course, I won't attach the horn/handles, I'll just integrate them directly into the plane.










And now when it is put together it looks like this:


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

On second thought, I might have to attach the horn and handle separately because I have to mortise out the top where the adjuster rod comes out


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## MikeB_UK (Jul 27, 2015)

> Heh, funny you would mention that. I did put such a horn on the front just before you mentioned it.
> 
> Right now I m trying to get the plane tote tilted slightly forward (more so than a normal plane) to account for the fact it cuts on the pull stroke.
> 
> - DevinT


pull stroke meaning horn closest to you or furthest away?
Wide end toward you on the japanese saw you use there, I think?

In that case it's a weird angle for me, to use whats essentially a plough plane (from a body mechanics point of view), so I'll have to have a think on it.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Yeah, it's a Japanese saw blade, the rip teeth are pointed toward the narrow end of the blade.

Definitely suggestions welcome on where we think the handle should best go.

Or … should I swap it out with a saw handle? I've also toyed with the idea of taking the design of saw handle and flipping it upside down and tilting it. Whatever is going to give us the most control on that pull stroke which is where the control needs to be concentrated (I would think ideally) in-line with the center of the blade (imagine line running between the cutting teeth, bisecting the hang-hole and handle hole)


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## MikeB_UK (Jul 27, 2015)

> Yeah, it s a Japanese saw blade, the rip teeth are pointed toward the narrow end of the blade.
> - DevinT


Right, wide end away from you, which means you're pulling it right to left instead of pushing left to right?
Which means if you are going to pattern the handeles on a western plane designed for pushing (OK most, we have some pull planes), align the handle the other way.
It's a pretty poor design for pulling though, everyone uses a plane for pulling because it's easier than rejigging everything when you hit some unhelpful grain, but it's a last ditch use and not something you'd want to use as standard.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Alternatively, I could elongate the thing to make it almost as long as a fore plane.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Also, notice what I did with the hand plane tote by giving it a secondary horn like a saw handle ^_^


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> So I attached a horn, added a Stanley No 5 plane tote tilted at 32 degrees toward the front of the plane, and cut out some waste to make it easy to get your fingers in and out.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


lookin pretty damn cool dev,cant wait to see this finished.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

*pottz*, what do you think? "Low boy" design or "tall boy?"


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

Did anyone notice that it is slowly looking more and more like a whale?


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> *pottz*, what do you think? "Low boy" design or "tall boy?"
> 
> - DevinT


id probably go low,but ive never made one.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> pull stroke meaning horn closest to you or furthest away?
> Wide end toward you on the japanese saw you use there, I think?
> 
> In that case it s a weird angle for me, to use whats essentially a plough plane (from a body mechanics point of view), so I ll have to have a think on it.
> ...


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> pull stroke meaning horn closest to you or furthest away?
> Wide end toward you on the japanese saw you use there, I think?
> 
> In that case it s a weird angle for me, to use whats essentially a plough plane (from a body mechanics point of view), so I ll have to have a think on it.
> ...


*COOL*


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I was taught to pull a push-saw to create the initial kerf before then switching to push.

My experience with pull-saws is that pushing to start works quite well before switching to a pull.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

OK, to make it less "whale like" (not that it would be a bad thing … my Dad talked about working at Foster's Freeze and had a plush version of their once-mascot, "Fudgie the Whale"-cutest thing ever, I still have it).

But this design turns the plane tote into a saw-like handle, gives the plane more meat, adds some contouring for grip (above the blade and in front of the blade), has an 18" sole, and I think angles the front of the plane properly to make it easy to work.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> I was taught to pull a push-saw to create the initial kerf before then switching to push.
> 
> My experience with pull-saws is that pushing to start works quite well before switching to a pull.
> 
> - DevinT


Yeah thats a trick for beginners before they get the right feel for it and build skill. If you get or file a progressive tooth blade then it won't even matter. For pull saws I find it to be more about angles, as you can watch Hiso do below

Paul on push saws:





Hiso on pull saws:


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> I was taught to pull a push-saw to create the initial kerf before then switching to push.
> 
> My experience with pull-saws is that pushing to start works quite well before switching to a pull.
> 
> ...


hmmm,i guess thats cool if you wanna work out your arms.ill take my band saws any day though.im a party pooper i guess.got better things to do than spending 15 minutes resawing a small board.to each his own.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> hmmm,i guess thats cool if you wanna work out your arms.ill take my band saws any day though.im a party pooper i guess.got better things to do than spending 15 minutes resawing a small board.to each his own.
> 
> - pottz


Heck, I'm too lazy to use a bandsaw. I just go to Ikea. All the furniture I could ever want has already been made for me.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> hmmm,i guess thats cool if you wanna work out your arms.ill take my band saws any day though.im a party pooper i guess.got better things to do than spending 15 minutes resawing a small board.to each his own.
> 
> - pottz
> 
> ...


lmao! yeah right,i know better !


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## MikeB_UK (Jul 27, 2015)

> OK, to make it less "whale like" (not that it would be a bad thing … my Dad talked about working at Foster s Freeze and had a plush version of their once-mascot, "Fudgie the Whale"-cutest thing ever, I still have it).
> 
> - DevinT


Well done, that's much less whale like


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> OK, to make it less "whale like" (not that it would be a bad thing … my Dad talked about working at Foster s Freeze and had a plush version of their once-mascot, "Fudgie the Whale"-cutest thing ever, I still have it).
> 
> - DevinT
> 
> ...


Haha, yes that is EXACTLY what i picture when i see those drawings. Its like Devin is subliminally remembering marine biology section from biology class. The design slowly went from Narwhal to Sperm Whale. Like the thing is going to swallow Gepetto when she is cutting a kerf.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I added a blade clamp/guard which can be flipped over to protect the blade when not in use.



















You ought to be still be able to adjust the depth while the blade is under pressure. The whole system should be rigid and inflexible but still adjustable.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Just enough room for a logo and signature


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I shall name him Moby!


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> I shall name him Moby!
> 
> - DevinT


Moby Nick, nicks the wood as he crosses the wood.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)




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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Now it is official


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

Now you have to make a saw called Captain Ahab to follow Moby Nick around


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Ahab should be the American version of a Ryoba to make it all work together


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Should I close the handle to allow it to hang on a peg board more easily?


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> Should I close the handle to allow it to hang on a peg board more easily?
> 
> - DevinT


cant say because i hate peg board.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

As an update, ... I've gone down a dark rabbit hole of ergonomics.

I'm starting on design number 8 soon.

I'd like to take a moment to share some of my considerations and what is wrong with the above designs.

First, I asked myself whether I should close the handle (think traditional saw handle) or leave it open (think plane handle). Well, the answer is deceptively simple: close the handle. Due to the fact that this is to be constructed from a single board with the grain running horizontally instead of vertically, the lignin bond is likely to fail from forward leaning pressure on the handle if it is not closed. Albeit less of an issue with hardwoods, I want the design to be functional in softer woods so closing the handle will lend strength by preventing tensile force at the base of the handle by bracing the top of the handle.

Second, the way the front of the plane slopes outward toward the sole is wrong. If you stretch your arm out in front of you so your wrist is not tilted, and then slowly bring your arm down to just-above your waist, your wrist will rotate to keep the plane cutter in line with the surface. The. angle at which your wrist twists with the above design (flared toward the sole) would cause horrible pain in the wrist as you operate the plane. The leading edge needs to be perpendicular to the sole. Not slanted the other way, which would impart a lifting action as you pulled the plane toward you but a perpendicular edge to grip so that as you pull the plane toward you it causes your wrist to relax.

I have also taken into consideration that you will need a firm grip with one hand while operating the adjuster with the other-so it will definitely have a discrete full-size handle set back from the blade. A few designs I had to throw out because while you could operate the thing two-handed you couldn't comfortably hold the thing with one hand while twisting a thumb knob to adjust depth.

The depth adjuster is definitely "in" because:

1. Without the fence it is in essence an adjustable-depth backsaw which would be immensely useful in the cutting of dovetails

2. Because I can fully retract the leading edge of the blade, exposing only the smaller gradated teeth at the base of the saw, I can both gain registration area as well as ease into my kerf from the start-and as I gain enough kerf to seat the blade, I can advance more teeth and more-aggressive teeth to work faster.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I have finalized the mechanical functionality of the micro-adjustable fence as well. There will be a thumb knob at the front of the plane that, when turned, drives a threaded rod that acts as linkage to actuate arms that project the fence. The point is not to be complicated, but the point is to:

1. Have a low profile width-wise (the entire Kerfing Plane will be no wider than a regular jack plane and fit into the till)
2. To have a micro-adjusting feature on the fence
3. To not have rods protruding out of the side of the plane
4. To have a single point of adjustment that can be tightened to lock the fence position

Not to mention, I am obsessed with linkage and adjusters.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

welcome back i was afraid youd given up on this.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Design number 8 is the latest design and I really like it. What do y'all think? This is the result of ergonomics testing, force calculations, and mock-pretend-use (yes, I looked like a fool for the past couple weeks walking around the house pretending to use a plane in the kitchen, living room, on a walk, etc. -we'll call it "air planing" like "playing the air guitar", lol).


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

i was wondering where youve been.hey it's looking good,time to go into production dev ?


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

There are a few plane totes hidden in the design


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

> i was wondering where youve been.hey it s looking good,time to go into production dev ?
> 
> - pottz


Now that I am happy with the design of the body, it's time to design the fence. I've been designing it in my head for the past few weeks and know exactly what I want to do, it's just a matter of creating the SVG's to get the idea out of my head and into something the Shaper Origin will accept.

The fence is going to use two parallel bars with holes at either end and a slot in the middle. The holes at either end will capture a brass pin to allow for rotation. The slot will accommodate brass pin on a carriage much like a tail vise. The carriage will travel a threaded rod, pushing/pulling the parallel bars to extend the fence.

In PTAMPIA there is a similar fence on a door sash plane that uses scissored bars (no micro adjust, no carriage, just riveted at the cross section), but it wasn't the inspiration for my design. I've never seen anyone make a similar design for a micro-adjusting fence that I have pictured in my head-so it will be good to get it out of my head to share with others to see what they think.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I'm wondering what is an acceptable amount of throw on the fence. 3"? 6"?

I am looking at other planes for inspiration and not seeing anything too crazy. What's the longest throw anyone has seen?


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

For example, I am seeing ECE Plough Plane for ~$434.69 (€375.70) that has a max throw of 5-1/4" as-found on this page



















That seems to indicate to me that a 6-inch throw would be plenty.


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## DavePolaschek (Oct 21, 2016)

> I m wondering what is an acceptable amount of throw on the fence. 3"? 6"?
> 
> I am looking at other planes for inspiration and not seeing anything too crazy. What s the longest throw anyone has seen?
> 
> - DevinT


The long rods on a Stanley 45 combination plane are six-ish inches. At full extension, that's pretty wobbly. I'd say 4-6 inches is probably plenty. And then I would promptly find that I'd need more, but…


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## MikeB_UK (Jul 27, 2015)

Six inch seems fairly standard on wooden plough planes.

Anything longer than that would get in the way in most cases and be potentially unstable.

If the rods are detachable, you could have a short one for resawing and longer ones for other uses.
If the rods are fixed I'm confident you could come up with a method of adding an extension, might be worth adding another skate for stability at the joint (might not .


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> I m wondering what is an acceptable amount of throw on the fence. 3"? 6"?
> 
> I am looking at other planes for inspiration and not seeing anything too crazy. What s the longest throw anyone has seen?
> 
> - DevinT


I guess it depends on how thick of rough sawn boards you plan on resawing. The biggest I typically use for lumber is 8/4. 12/4 and up starts getting really pricey. So for 8/4 tou would need however much through to where the blade lines up up to 1/2 the thickness. I am guessing the rod would probably need to be around 2" long.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

SMP, MikeB, Dave, thanks!

I'm thinking of using 1/2" lathe bar stock for the fence arms and will shoot for a 4-6" throw.

I've done the calculations on required thickness for the body and came up with a minimum of 1-1/4" and a maximum thickness of 1-1/2" so what I am going to do is start out with 6/4 lumber for the body. Take some 6/4 (1-1/2" thick) and plane it a little just to make it flat, flip it over, surface to final thickness, run smoother over it. Should create something between 1-1/4" and 1-1/2".

I've measured several handles for my bench planes and they seem to all be about 7/8" thick at their widest parts. So I think I will just "cut in" the handle contour to make it a comfortable 7/8" thick from the main 1-1/4"(-ish) thick body.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

SMP, but what about non-resaw activities?

A kerf is really just a super thin groove or dado and if you evenly space them parallel to each other, you can kerf-bend. So I imagine that there is utility in the tool beyond just trying to target at-least-half the common-thickness of boards (which I can't imagine would go much further than 8/4 or 2" thick-so any throw beyond 1" is really for non-resaw activities since I don't really see lumber thicker than 8/4 in my shop)


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## DavePolaschek (Oct 21, 2016)

I resaw 12/4 flat-sawn lumber into 3 inch wide by 3/8 thick quartersawn pieces for boxes on a pretty regular basis, Devin. The slats in the doors of my laundry hamper are getting made that way.

Then again, I've gotten lazy, so that particular task generally happens on my bandsaw now.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I cannot come up with a known name for this mechanism. The closest thing I can come up with is a "slotted slider-crank chain inversion" mechanism.

A lead screw will convert rotary motion into linear motion to drive a perpendicular crank in a slot to transform said linear motion back into rotary motion to move a driver connected to a coupling rod.

Based on some limited research, I think this might qualify for one of those times where the creator's surname appears in the naming of said mechanism (like a Whitworth mechanism).

Naturally, imagine two of these connected via coupling rod attached to the fence.

It starts with this odd shape which has a 1/2" hole drilled in from the side and a 1/4" slot mortised into it, and a 1/4" hole in the center. The 1/2" bore will hold 1/2" lathe bar stock epoxied into place, the 1/4" slot and holes will both fit snugly around 1/4" dia. brass rod.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Go look at the driver wheels of a steam locomotive….

According to Montgomery Scott…." The more they complicate the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the one drain"


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## LeeRoyMan (Feb 23, 2019)

You can call it the LeeRoy mechanism. Basically works the same.


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## MikeB_UK (Jul 27, 2015)

Isn't that pretty much the same as how a pillar drill feed lever works?
Or does that use a worm drive for up/down?
Or something else - someone send me one so I can dismantle it


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

Looking at your drawing in post 291. Perhaps I am not interpreting your drawing correctly but an observation/question about the drawing. The red pin that represents the attachment to the saw blade will move in an arc. Can the adjustment bolt pivot to accommodate that? It is hard to tell from the 2D drawing but the open rectangular box (with rounded corners) which I assume guides the motion of the linkage appears to not be arced so the tab that looks like the linkage to the red pin seems like it would need to be able to move side to side (front to back) in its carriage as the blot pivots to accommodate the arc of the blade movement.



> Based on some limited research, I think this might qualify for one of those times where the creator's surname appears in the naming of said mechanism (like a Whitworth mechanism).


Be careful not to get too carried away with the design or the name that gets attached might be Rube Goldberg. ;-)


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

bandit,

Thanks. I found this here under the kinematic engineering section of four bar chain inversions.

Similarities to locomotive wheels are:

1. There is a coupling rod (attached to the fence)
2. There are two cranks connected to the coupling rod
3. The cranks are attached to a frame
4. The frame is fixed

However, where things become different:

1. The steam driven piston driving Walschaerts Valve Gear mechanism is absent
2. No slotted link system

The part that I am not finding anywhere else is the slotted crank being integrated without a lever.

That is to say that I am closest I think to a slotted link system

As the link advances and retracts it causes the link to move the slot to rotate the linkage attached to the coupling rod to move the fence


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

So, I previously alluded to a similar style fence that I came across in PTAMPIA …










Here is an animation of such mechanism:






That's not what I am doing, I just want to share that people have already solved the problem in other ways


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## MikeB_UK (Jul 27, 2015)

st peter's cross leg vise

Chris Schwarz has a lot of info on it, but goes back a lot further than that plane


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Here is a better representation of my mechanism:










When I turn the thumb screw, the magenta pieces travel the threaded rod, which drags a slot to rotate the coupling rod which is kept parallel to the lead screw


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

> Looking at your drawing in post 291. Perhaps I am not interpreting your drawing correctly but an observation/question about the drawing. The red pin that represents the attachment to the saw blade will move in an arc. Can the adjustment bolt pivot to accommodate that? It is hard to tell from the 2D drawing but the open rectangular box (with rounded corners) which I assume guides the motion of the linkage appears to not be arced so the tab that looks like the linkage to the red pin seems like it would need to be able to move side to side (front to back) in its carriage as the blot pivots to accommodate the arc of the blade movement.
> 
> Based on some limited research, I think this might qualify for one of those times where the creator's surname appears in the naming of said mechanism (like a Whitworth mechanism).
> 
> ...


Hopefully all will become clear when I zoom in. Yes, I accounted for this.










Let's zoom in closer, because it's really hard to see that 0.4 degrees of rotation that is occurring at the red spot compared to the 30 degrees of rotation that happens at the rear of the blade.










Should start to become clear that the rotation is actually in the drawing. I did not simply move the piece down to simulate depth adjustment, I actually rotated it to boot (it's an exact representation of real life-zero pieces were "contorted" in the creation of the design).

Let's zoom in even further to perhaps see those angles even better, perhaps up toward the knurled thumb screw by the pivot point.










You see, the bearing is bored for a plug that sits in a slightly oversized mortise to accommodate for the rotation.

Can you see the ever-so-slight rotation imparted on the bolt?










Maybe if I zoom in really really really close










In most cases, I gave myself ample tolerance to be rather sloppy with the Shaper Origin. There's quite a few things I can mess up and this will all still work-that being said, there are a few key components that have to be spot-on (like the fit on the bearing).


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Switching to "outline" view should also help illustrate just how small the rotation is on the down-rod


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Very small fractions of an inch and very small rotations


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

I would try to avoid the situation shown by the third drawing in the post #303 where the friction would be maximum making a hard point in the adjustment.

The PTAMPIA system could receive an adjustment screw.
Putting the adjustment screw along the fence would keep it away from the handle.

Contrary to simple adjustment rods, any mechanism will have some slack.

The system used on the plough planes ensure that the fence doesn't move along the longitudinal axis, so one always push on the same spot of the fence to keep it against the board.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

This drawing?










I'm not sure I am seeing what you are describing, if you could help me out a little further.

As-per slack, that's easy enough to handle. A well placed screw (or two-as shown in the PTAMPIA scissor mechanism) can take up the slack by making the system rigid.

I have built a similar mechanism that uses 4 wing nuts over the linkage to make the system rigid. I can take a video of it to demonstrate that once locked-down that the fence does not move along the axis in question.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

OK, I think I see it now. You're referring to Saint-Venant binding due to opposing forces (creating a moment load) at this point between the revolute joint (pivot) and the slider (prismatic joint).

You're right. That's not going to work smoothly.

I might be able to design around that by changing the slider orientation.

However, after modeling this mechanism, I am not sure it's all that great. Here's the issue I am seeing with it:

A screw input of 1/8" on the helical joint to drive the crank/rocker via slider about a pivot results in ~1.75" of fence travel at 15 degrees pivotal rotation.

The reason I want the adjuster is so that I can do linear increments for the purpose of kerf bending.

1. Put the fence at 6" 
2. Cut kerf
3. Pull fence in ~1/8" and repeat step 2
4. Repeat as-needed for width of kerf bend

This would create a series of kerfs that would allow me to bend the wood. Without a micro-adjusting fence, you're talking about moving a clamped guide between kerf cuts which can introduce a lot of error.

The cold hard fact is that if I use a mechanism like the one I imagined above-a system consisting of a 4-bar linkage driven by a screw … the projection of the fence (output motion) will not be linear with respect to input [screw] motion.

I have other mechanisms in mind which do have linear input-to-output ratios that I think I want to use instead.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

AND, it turns out I am far from the first person to think of this type of mechanism.



> A more common higher pair is a pin-in-slot joint where a pin allows a link to rotate and the pin itself can slide in a slot. The geometry keeps the joint constrained or closed (form closed). This joint can be considered the combina- tion of a pivot joint and a slider joint into one compact unit. It is commonly used in mechanisms such as those used to open and close casement windows. It it is a multiple-joint for which f = 2 in Gruebler's Equation.
> β = cos−1 ⎜ e f L ⎟ ⎝ 2ef ⎠
> φ = cos−1 ⎜ f L e ⎟ ⎝ 2fL ⎠
> Another common joint is a second order pin joint, in which 3 links are joined at a single node. Since the links can move in different directions, depending on how their ends are constrained, it is considered a multiple-joint and so f = 2 in Gruebler's Equation. As shown in the picture, this joint is what enables the hydraulic piston to produce a very large range of motion in the excavator bucket. Indeed, this type of linkage is very commonly used in con- struction equipment to allow a linear actuator to actuate a link through a very large angular range of motion with a much more even torque capability than would be possible if the cylinder pushed directly on the load.


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

I had to look at Grübler.

It is not mandatory to combine the adjustment mechanism with the mechanism which ensure parallelism.

If a linear adjustment is sought, a screw perpendicular to the saw combined with scissors or rods to keep the fence parallel with the saw seems a simple solution.

There are plough planes with two rods and a separate adjustment screw. (I have seen a picture of one with a scroll wheel with a left thread on one side and a right thread on the other side; so the wheel remains in the middle between the body and the fence [and no circlip needed]).
https://cdn.popularwoodworking.com/wp-content/uploads/leamy4_IMG_0418.jpg

the picture here shows a version with a single threaded screw:
https://www.tooltique.co.uk/shop/rare-antique-kimberly-patent-beech-plough-plane-old-woodworking-tool/


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

> I want [...] linear increments for the purpose of kerf bending.
> 
> 1. Put the fence at 6"
> 2. Cut kerf
> ...


In fact, the plough plane fence model is only good for the first (one or more?) kerf. (more if the spacing is tight)
Then you would need something which uses the n kerf to guide the n+1(or more) kerf.

The first kerf could be done without a fence, using a guide batten.
The subsequent kerf needs a skate which can move vertically when the saw comes deeper in the n+1 kerf while still pressing on the bottom of the n kerf.
Although for curving purpose, the kerf is not necessarily deep and doesn't need to be perfectly perpendicular to the surface. So it might work with a skate which doesn't move vertically.

A possible solution could be screwing the skate to the side of the kerf plane; using shims to adjust the spacing.









slightly out of subject, you might like to have a look at a document about mechanical computing:
http://www.analogmuseum.org/library/svoboda_computing_mechanisms.pdf


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

> I want [...] linear increments for the purpose of kerf bending.
> 
> 1. Put the fence at 6"
> 2. Cut kerf
> ...


Brilliant!

This had not occurred to me for two principle reasons:

1. The skate on plow/plough planes is usually immovable and centered over the cutter

2. The groove/dado/kerf left by the cutter (this saw blade in my instance) is going to be 0.026" wide (the blade itself is 0.02" thick)

I wonder if I even have material thin enough to skate within the kerf.

/me rummages through purchase history

Sweet! I have an unused sheet of this stuff at 0.015" thick. That would definitely fit inside the kerf. However, with only 0.0055" on either side, it might not slide easily if I go too deep.

/me runs down to the shop to make a kerf and see if the shim slides easily

Hmmm, not too bad. Of course, I have to cut a curve into the leading edge to make it less binding on the push, but since this saw blade cuts on the pull stroke, the idea of dropping a skate into the kerf I think works quite well.

I don't think the skate has to move vertically. In fact, I think-especially with such little clearance of the skate in the kerf-that you want the skate to not touch the bottom of the kerf. From what I tried in the shop just now, I get the easiest movement of the shim stock in the kerf if I am riding shallow on depth and relying solely on the kerf walls.

The idea of putting the skate on the fence I think has merit if the fence is wide enough to allow the plane to not tip. You could then set the skate in the first groove and adjust the depth of cut progressively with ease compared to having to prevent the plane from tipping out of the groove.

Let me work up some ideas that incorporate a skate to accommodate kerf bending in the middle of the board.

*ASIDE:* I knew the decision to use a double-sided Ryoba was going to pay off-those cross-cut teeth on the opposite side of the blade are perfect for this. That's why I designed the thing to allow you to flip the blade over to use the cross-cut teeth instead of the ripping teeth. I didn't just imagine using this for resaw operations but also for interesting cross cuts.

Again, brilliant, *Sylvain*!

Originally I was thinking of just living with the limitation that if I wanted to experiment with using hand tools for kerf bending that I would have to do-so within 0-6 inches from an edge (relying on the fence to align me for each kerf, evenly spaced). I didn't really like that limitation but I was willing to live with it because it was better than nothing.

However, your idea of a movable skate is wonderful because, as you say, after the first cut, all subsequent cuts are equi-distant if you can skate over the previous groove.

Now I am wondering, if the movable skate and movable fence could in-fact be one-and-the-same. That, if the wood fence can be removed and replaced with the shim stock to instead act as a skate. Or, what if the skate was on the wood fence and you just remove the wood, flip it 180, and now it has the shim stock exposed at the right height to fit into the kerf.

Thank you very much for the link to that mechanical computing tome. It will take me some time to digest its 400+ pages, but I suspect it will be a scintillating read full of things I want/need to learn in the realm of mechanical engineering. As I have previously stated in other threads … I am obsessed with linkages.


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## MikeB_UK (Jul 27, 2015)

That skate wants a depth adjuster on it - it needs to be lower than the saw at the start of the cut so it registers in the kerf when you start to cut, but then needs to raise up so it doesn't bottom out. Could just be a sprung assembly to let it ride up and down without adjustment.

You could just use the depth adjusment on the saw plate, but easier to do on the skate so you don't have to keep altering the cut depth.


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

MikeB_UK
that is where the elasticity of the skate assembly might be good enough.

DevinT,
Thank You for the compliment, it is always a pleasure in itself to participate to a solution.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

> That skate wants a depth adjuster on it - it needs to be lower than the saw at the start of the cut so it registers in the kerf when you start to cut, but then needs to raise up so it doesn t bottom out. Could just be a sprung assembly to let it ride up and down without adjustment.
> 
> You could just use the depth adjusment on the saw plate, but easier to do on the skate so you don t have to keep altering the cut depth.
> 
> - MikeB_UK


You are absolutely right. Hmmm.

/me goes to the drawing board

How about this … you set the depth of cut to be some superficial depth (not the final depth) that is lower than a spring loaded pair of rounded skates.

This will cut parallel kerfs deep enough that you can then go back and change your depth of cut once and let the saw do the rest of the work (the deeper you go the more angled the blade is, so this means you can start with the sole flush against the surface and ease the blade into the existing kerf to keep from tilting the plane as you work to depth).

I was going to make the skates long enough to accommodate for the deepest blade depth, but I quickly realized that this is completely unnecessary because once the saw gets about 1/8" down it is naturally just going to track the kerf walls and you don't need a skate anymore-unless I am missing something.

Of course, I still have to find a way of attaching the springs in such a way that I can get the skates close to the blade (to do kerf bending, I might need to get the skates closer than 1/16" between kerfs-it really depends on the wood).

I don't suppose there is such a thing as a flat spring, lol.


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## MikeB_UK (Jul 27, 2015)

> I don t suppose there is such a thing as a flat spring, lol.
> - DevinT


Yeah, I was more thinking something like leaf springs than coil springs.


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

a 1/16" spacing is quite small.

The skate should not impair the saw dust evacuation.
A way around is to first make say 5 kerf with a plow-plane-type fence or with a guiding batten. Then the skate goes in the first kerf to make the sixth kerf and so on. (skate in kerf n, blade sawing kerf n+5) This way the spacing between the saw blade and the skate can be larger (5 spacing in this case).
With a multiple spacing you might avoid the Z shaped skate.
Another side benefit is a lower tendency to tip.

You might put a linkage between the two pivoting arms wit a spring pulling horizontally.
The kerf depth stop can be on the other side (like on a #78 rebate plane).



> That skate wants a depth adjuster on it - it needs to be lower than the saw at the start of the cut so it registers in the kerf when you start to cut, but then needs to raise up so it doesn t bottom out. Could just be a sprung assembly to let it ride up and down without adjustment.
> 
> - MikeB_UK


You are right, that is what was said (in other words) in:
"The subsequent kerf needs a skate which can move vertically when the saw comes deeper in the n+1 kerf while still pressing on the bottom of the n kerf." and the drawing was pointing to the elasticity of the Z shaped skate.


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

Now there is more than one way to skin a cat.
Going low tech:
What about using a guide batten made like the parallel rule used by navigators. 








Clamp one, then you would insert shims (playing cards?) between the two rules and then clamp the mobile one. Could be a bit tedious to make all the kerfs but interesting to make about 5 of them.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Funny that you would mention a parallel ruler used in nautical charting which was my inspiration for this project

I just went down to the shop and made a video of my parallel edge guide prototype I put together at the beginning of this year.

As-per helping the saw-dust evacuate by moving the skate out, I often have the Ryoba up against a fence that is flush with the surface I am cutting, and it doesn't seem to affect it. I suspect that is because of the toothless tapered toe/heel that drives the sawdust out. In fact, if clearance on the left and right of the blade were a problem, then I would suspect that there would be issues with resawing where the two new faces are right up against the blade. As long as I start at one end then the sawdust should be able to escape the kerf at the end of each stroke.

One of my biggest concerns with these skates are that they would only be 0.015" thick. They are not easy to bend (being fully tempered) but should one become bent and need replacing, I need a way of affixing each skate so they are replaceable-rule number one of tool design, make sure your tool fails gracefully.

A simple 2-bar linkage where one bar is a rocker with a clevis end with a pin attached to a spring (the other "bar") and the other end of the rocker has a V-shaped skate that is brought to 90 by being screwed into the rocker would provide a replaceable skate mechanism.

That way if I am stupid and bend the skate, I can first at least take it off the plane and use a hand brake or pein to fix, or simply replace it.

I really need to learn Fusion 360-some of these things are just begging for 3D modeling instead of 2D modeling from different angles.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

An example clevis and yoke end that could work to redirect a coil spring to drive a rocker to keep a skate descended as far as it can go.

There is another option though. Something similar to coil-over-spring. However, I dismissed that option because the skates need to be able to convert input motion that is not necessarily linear (since the whole plane is in motion) into up/down motion-putting a spring over a screw, pin, or dowel would certainly drive the skate downward but you don't want the forward/backward motion of the plane to push the skate in a direction that will bind it, causing failure.

I think the 2-bar linkage is the safest way to go-I was just trying to imagine a way that I could translate the skate away from the spring (since I want to use coil springs-I have no experience with leaf springs and not sure it would be a robust long-lasting solution if not done correctly whereas a coil spring is pretty simple, easily replaceable, and hard to fail if properly constrained).


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Hmmm. So far I had been thinking … a movable skate (in this context, to ride in a previously cut groove) is mutually exclusive to a fence (you would use one or the other).

Saw this picture:










And thought to myself … hold on a second. There are two skates on that plane and one of them is movable (in the foreground). Hold the phone, Batman, are you telling me that I could actually be using a combination plane for kerf bending?

For those that may not have been following along, there is this website called the "Kerf Spacing Calculator" which allows you to punch in the specifications of your tools (the width of your kerf, for example), the specifics of your material (wood thickness, for example), and desired curvature. With a few other knobs you can turn, it then tells you how far apart the cuts need to be in order to achieve the desired bend.

Of course, the calculator can't account for everything, such as what the minimum thickness of your material is before it starts to fail under stress. You have to perform your own tests and tell the calculator what your minimum desired thickness is (how deep you cut into your surface for each cut, leaving a minimum of intact fibers to form the curved surface thickness).

So I ran some numbers. Let's say I want a 180 degree curve with a 12" radius out of some 3/4" lumber (minimum thickness 3/16", making each cut 9/16" deep).

If I use the kerfing plane/saw to make 0.026" wide kerfs, I have to make 91 cuts.

If I use a combination plane with a 1/8" wide cutter, it may take more time to make each cut, but I only have to make 19 cuts.

So, the question is, which is easier … with respect to making 1/2" deep dados (as this would be cross-grain) about 6 inches long per-dado …

a. Making 19 such cuts with a combination plane (1/8" wide each)

b. Making 91 such cuts with a kerfing plane (0.026" wide each)

I think the answer is (a) but I have never used a combination plane, or plow plane, or grooving plane, et cetera. How long does it take to make one such cut?

Does anyone here have a combination plane and have you ever used it in this way? (implying that perhaps this is the better hand tool for kerf bending without power tools?)


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

ASIDE: I can't find anything on the Internet of people using a combination plane in this way. The only thing I can find on kerf bending with hand tools is people using saws and in the case of luthiers, using a sacrificial adjacent block for indicating stopping-depth and eye-balling the distance between kerfs (no batten or mechanical spacing).


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

> If you have access to the MWTCA Gristmill magazine, you should take a look at the "Tools In Use" column in the most recent issue. It's "A Short Look at a Long Kerfing Saw" used to kerf the sides of a coffin so they can be bent.
> 
> Or, with the addition of a fence, to put a kerf in the edge of a board…
> 
> ...


*Dave* apparently beat me to the punch in post #213 (quote above)

OK! I am starting to feel better about my design now. It turns out my design is converging on the one mentioned above.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I don't have access. Tried looking at Gristmill archive index but did not see anything from 2021.

Here is what I can make out from the photo:



> After years of searching for a long Stairmaker's kerfing saw with a full-length brass depth stop that would make a nice Ozark coffin-making tool, I acquired one. Apparently, they are exceedingly rare because I have never seen one in advanced saw collections or in a display at the many MWTCA meets I have attended over the past 50 years. They are apparently English in origin and a few have been found over there and are thought to have been associated with stairmaking. After seeing an example on an English Facebook friend's post, I vowed that if I ever saw one it would be added to my coffin making tool kit. That opportunity came in Martin and Kathy Donnelly's last auction in 2020 where one was offered and I won it, but, at a premium price. It is in very good condition but I have to sharpen the teeth which are misshapen and dull. I will use it for two purposes, the first being to cut coffin boards across the grain to create bends at coffin shoulders, and secondly, to saw around board edges in preparation for resawing it into thinner stock. The latter task will require a fence which I will gently clamp in place on the saw body.


OK, that sounds exactly like what I am creating. I admit that I did not fully read that before because it was grainy and I didn't have access to the original article online.

*Dave* thanks for finding that.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I don't doubt that a combination plane *could* be used to make few cuts for a calculated kerf bend, but the idea of removing 1/2" x 1/8" x 6" of material sounds less appearing to me than using the described kerfing saw to make potentially more cuts but with less effort due to removing far less material (almost 5x less in the given example).

The fact that nobody talks about using a combination plane to do kerf bending coupled with the existence of the long kerfing saw for coffin making which involves both resawing and kerf bending, pretty much does it for me that this is the "proper" method for achieving those things.

ASIDE: No, I didn't know that the things I wanted this tool overlapped with coffin making. I dismissed this idea at first, now I'm slightly creeped out by it.

OK, so of course I think this tool is cool, and I think there has to be at least one other person in the World that thinks so, so I am going to continue developing my "new and improved coffin saw" (might as well call a spade a spade, right?)

The problem currently is that whilst there is such a tool that exists, the chances of me acquiring one is near nil and if I did it would be unusable (in the sense it would be a near-necessity to shelve it at a minimum, preferably under glass).

So the fact that I am designing something similar that can use an off-the-shelf $20 replacement blade is looking rather attractive. Onward we plow (pun intended).


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I came across this beauty online today


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## DavePolaschek (Oct 21, 2016)

> OK, that sounds exactly like what I am creating. I admit that I did not fully read that before because it was grainy and I didn't have access to the original article online.
> 
> Dave thanks for finding that.


You're welcome!

Sorry I didn't save the image (or the magazine) at a higher resolution, but I didn't. I think the archives may not go online for a year, in order to encourage people to join. If you wanted to join, I bet you could include a request for a reprint of that article with your membership, and you might just get a copy in the mail. Might not, but I'd be tempted to try it…


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

plough plane with a saw blade:
https://www.workshopheaven.com/quangsheng-no-043-plough-plane.html


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

> plough plane with a saw blade:
> https://www.workshopheaven.com/quangsheng-no-043-plough-plane.html
> 
> - Sylvain


Yeah, there's also Luban No 43. Problem is that they are impossible to get from what I have read online (everywhere is sold out). It's definitely a better price than either Bad Axe or Blackburn Tools (when you consider that to be competitive with Quangsheng or Luban, you have to buy the kit, not the ready-made tool, as Bad Axe for example will charge you upwards of $400+ for the built tool).

Not really interested in a kit, because if I have to build the thing from a kit myself, I want to use my own parts (which is where we are now; I have all the parts for the main body, just working on the fence now-I've shelved skates for a later date but will design it in such a way that I can swap the fence for a skate later on).

I am going to shelve the folding arms for the fence for the time being. After much research …

1. It seems people really like the protruding arms on plow/plough planes. There appears to be …

1.a. One arm (with seatpost-style clamp)
1.b. Two arms
1.b.i. with screws with lock nuts (wooden or metal)
1.b.ii. with circular guide rods and perpendicular screw clamps
1.b.iii. with half-circle guide rods and perpendicular screw clamps
1.b.iv. with scissor arms using 3 pivots and 2 sliders (each with thumb screws to clamp down on slot)
1.b.v. with guide arms and a center bridal linkage
1.c. Three arms
1.c.i. with 2 guide arms and 1 center screw and 2 locking nuts (wooden or metal)
1.c.ii. with 2 guide arms and 1 center wheel
1.c.iii. with 2 out-rigors with thumb screws and 1 center screw

ASIDE: And I am probably not scratching the surface of all the types.

2. I don't see *any* systems of adjustment that involve kinematic chains other than of course the scissor arms similar to St Peter's cross-leg vise. I know why this is and that is because the tolerances to avoid sin error in the system would have been beyond what they could achieve in the day (and to be honest, are greater than what I can achieve in wood-save that approach for a later date when I get my metal lathe and end mill).

I found this YouTube playlist to be extremely illuminating not only because so many different types of fence adjustments are explained, but shown on the actual tool in video.

I'm quite licking the Chapin-Rust patented 3-arm mechanism currently.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Chapin-Rust adjustment in action:

Wooden screw

Metal screw

Also, here is a Norcross adjustment (seems I was wrong about scissor arms being the only linkage-style adjuster):


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

What I like about Chapin-Rust:



















1. A pair of 1/4" dowel rod epoxied into the body of the plane. Easy.

2. Some 1/4-20 threaded rod with a swivel nut from McMaster Carr. Epoxy the swivel nut to the plane body and one end of the threaded rod into said swivel nut. Easy.

3. Put a 1/4-20 threaded insert into the fence, a hole for each dowel

4. Put the fence on the threaded rod and dowel rods

5. Put a thumb nut onto the threaded rod

6. Cap the threaded rod with a 1/4-20 knurled knob (epoxied on).

I only altered the Chapin-Rust mechanism slightly in that Instead of putting thumb screws over each dowel rod, I figure why not just put a knurled thumb nut on the threaded rod so I can take out the slack in much the same manner that lock nuts are used on threaded rod arms of the 2-arm plow plane design. Thus reducing complexity of the 3-arm Chapin Rust from 3 moving parts to just 2 in the mechanism attaching the fence.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

So this is what I put together in the shop for parts. Yes, the 1/4" brass rods are a little short. They are just stand-ins for longer rods of the same diameter (though, keep scrolling to see that another option is 1/2" dia. in choices such as brass, steel, or aluminum). And the hex head on the 1/4-20 threaded rod would not be there (but instead a nice knurled knob)


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

1. As an alternative to two rods and a screw, why not replacing one of the rods by the screw?
So, one rod and one screw.
Then one can still have a locking nut on the screw and if any slack on the rod, a locking screw on the rod.

2. Of course, the guidance provided by a screw is poor compared to a rod, which justify 
- two rods and a separate screw, or;
- the four nuts on the "screw arm" planes (the flanges of each pair of nuts, when tightened, should ensure that the screw is perpendicular to the plane-body/fence). So a large locking-nut flange-diameter is preferable on guiding screws.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

> 1. As an alternative to two rods and a screw, why not replacing one of the rods by the screw?
> So, one rod and one screw.
> Then one can still have a locking nut on the screw and if any slack on the rod, a locking screw on the rod.


Going one step further, I was thinking about 1-arm plow planes which use a collar compressed by a screw to clamp onto the rod, and every time I see one of these things in a video on YouTube, I keep thinking to myself …

The presenter is not going to demonstrate the fence movement for two reasons:

1. You have to undo the screw holding the collar
2. The moment you un-do that screw it will be revealed that you can actually freely rotate the fence about the rod

Sure, it will stay parallel, but not perpendicular.

Not sure that staying perpendicular matters much, but there is probably a reason that you don't find many 1-arm plow planes. Yet, every time I see a 1-arm plow plane on display, it has interestingly had its fence rotated to be perfectly perpendicular.

So, how to keep the fence both perpendicular and parallel?

As you say, 2-arms is all that is needed *and* can actually be positioned independently anywhere on the fence in relation to the each other (be they screw arm, bar, rod, out-rigor, or whatever).

In-fact it was on the cover of the book Wooden Plow Planes : A Celebration of the Planemakers' Art by Don Rosebrook 2003










That is a rather ingenious design on the topic of replacing one of the arms with the screw.

In the above design, however, they made the screw travel with the support arm that it drives. Though I just realized that there is a very specific reason that they chose to make the support arm rectangular-to reduce stress on the screw. I think we can learn something from this design which is that if the support arm were round, then there would be a force applied to the screw-albeit preventing arbitrary rotation about the arm-that would increase tension on the teeth of the screw and cause unnecessary wear over time, if not out-right binding in the process.

So if I did replace one of the arms with the screw, I would have to change out the bar stock from round to non-round.

There is square/rectangular tubing (which apparently comes in carbon fiber and acrylic, aside from your normal steel and aluminum), C-bar (also known as C-channel or U bar), flat bar stock (which unless we're talking 1/8" steel, is likely going to have too much flex to extend out 6 inches and stay perfectly perpendicular), square bar (like round lathe bar stock except square), and hex bar (like round lathe bar stock, but hexagonal).

ASIDE: I can't make a traveling screw arrangement like the one above, because I don't have the real-estate to go through the plane body (the saw plate is in the way), hence the swivel nut.

There are issues with each, none of which are blockers.

For square/rectangular tubing, you're going to want to find some way of capping off the tube otherwise you have a big hole in the center of your plane-a place that I find spiders and other critters making a home in when you are not looking. Other than that, pretty attractive especially due to the fact that the corners are already rounded so you don't have to dog-bone the corners of your mortise nor do you have to chisel them out. Perhaps just cutting a nice rosewood plug to friction-fit the end of the tubing would make it attractive.

ASIDE: Though beautiful, I have been advised to stay away from the carbon fiber tubing. Not sure about acrylic square tubing-never played with it; good ol' stainless steel would probably be best for any choice of support arm for that matter. It's what all the plow planes use.

For C-bar, aka C-channel, aka U-bar, the problem I foresee is that you have to route a slot the size of the bar, in the shape of the bar, and getting a good friction-fit is going to be hard. Without a good fit it just won't work well.

For flat bar stock, just too flimsy.

Thinking square or hex bar would actually do quite nicely. Or, as was done in the above-pictured plane, a simple hardwood square dowel.

Either way, it's clear to me that you probably should not put a screw into a one-arm system unless that arm can prevent rotational forces causing the screw to deflect when in-use.



> 2. Of course, the guidance provided by a screw is poor compared to a rod, which justify
> - two rods and a separate screw, or;
> - the four nuts on the "screw arm" planes (the flanges of each pair of nuts, when tightened, should ensure that the screw is perpendicular to the plane-body/fence). So a large locking-nut flange-diameter is preferable on guiding screws.
> 
> - Sylvain


I am not limited to 1/4-20. I contemplated going up as high as 1-8 on the screw.

In that situation, the screw would be like that of a bench vise and the support arm could then be smaller (in fact, with the screw being larger than the support arm, it is possible that the support arm could be a round bar-negating what was discussed above with respect to unwanted deflection of the screw from revolute forces about the support arm).

I have checked and McMaster Carr does carry a swivel nut in 1-8, and I have to admit that I am rather curious what such a beast would look like in my hand. Of course, beefing-up the screw brings with it other unique issues like …

How to make a 1-8 threaded insert? (epoxy a 1-8 hex nut into the wood?)

Is there such a thing as a 1-8 knurled knob to cap the end of the screw?

But at least Chapin-Rust proved that you do not need a beefy screw (1/4-20 would be fine) if you can take the stresses off the screw (hence two support arms-which can really be position anywhere in relation to each other). The same could be said for non-radial singular support arm (no stress on the screw).

I believe the only reason that the flange-diameter on the locking nuts of screw arm plow planes is so large is simply so you can lever a lot of force against the screw to take out slack against the mating threads-coupled with the fact that getting a tight locking effect in wood is hard.

Though you just made me realize something. Lock nuts can often feel secure by hand and when the machine is in-use, vibration drives them to unlock-to which I might just add a split lock washer if it was metal-on-metal.

I suspect another reason that the lock nut diameter is large-for levering greater force-is to keep the assembly from vibrating loose simply through increased surface area.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I think the other consideration for 1-screw plus 1-guide versus 1-screw plus 2-guide is the length of the fence.

I think it might look odd to put a small tiny hand-sized fence on such a long plane (saw blade is ~16.75" mounted to a ~17" sole). I am thinking of making the fence 2.5 x the largest average width of a human hand (4.5" on the large side) to get ~12.

I don't think there is any need to make the fence as long as the plane-might look strange to have a 17" long fence-that's almost as long as a Stanley No 6). Plus, too long and we risk turning the entire fence into a flexure.

I think I am going to go with 2×1/2" rod stock and the 1/4-20 threaded rod plus swivel nut and threaded insert. I doubt that there would be any flex in the 1/2" rod even after adding the fence's weight-allowing the screw to turn free from binding and applying force dead-center between the rods.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I went ahead and purchased the remaining 1/2" rod stock and knurled knob required for the fence.

All the parts should be here within a week or two.

For reference, I get my brass lathe bar stock from this seller

It's nice because it comes with the ends already chamfered.

Here is the knurled knob that I like (which I keep buying over and over-which you can find in this color or black)

ASIDE: Same knurled knob I purchased for the depth adjuster, so the fence and blade adjustment knobs will match.


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## MikeB_UK (Jul 27, 2015)

> ASIDE: I can t make a traveling screw arrangement like the one above, because I don t have the real-estate to go through the plane body (the saw plate is in the way), hence the swivel nut.
> - DevinT


Nothing to stop you putting the adjuster and lock on the fence instead of the body though.
The arm then only needs to go far enough into the body to be stable, and it's easy enough to bulk up part of the side of the body if you need more support.


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## MikeB_UK (Jul 27, 2015)

> I don t think there is any need to make the fence as long as the plane-might look strange to have a 17" long fence-that s almost as long as a Stanley No 6). Plus, too long and we risk turning the entire fence into a flexure.
> - DevinT


The fence needs to be long enough to be registering at the point the cut starts & finishes I'd have thought? (never tried though, so could be wrong)

I think you will get away with starting sawing in the middle, or angling the plane a bit so you can register the fence , but if it's shorter than the saw plate you run the risk of the kerf going off line when the saw is cutting but the fence isn't registering.


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

> I believe the only reason that the flange-diameter on the locking nuts of screw arm plow planes is so large is simply so you can lever a lot of force against the screw to take out slack against the mating threads-coupled with the fact that getting a tight locking effect in wood is hard.
> 
> Though you just made me realize something. Lock nuts can often feel secure by hand and when the machine is in-use, vibration drives them to unlock-to which I might just add a split lock washer if it was metal-on-metal.
> 
> - DevinT


1. Well of course the large nut flanges might not have been intentional as it is easier to make larger wooden screws. So this was at least a side benefit. But then on the model where the plane body itself is threaded (your video link above), there are nevertheless locking nuts on each side. This suppress any wiggle of the screw in the body thread.

2. When using a knurled locking nut one can make say three radial holes in it to be able to tighten it with a pin or a lock nut wrench.

May I ask what are "out-rigors"?


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Sorry, misspelled … outrigger = a beam, spar, or framework projecting from or over the side of a ship or boat

Imagine a tippy canoe. An outrigger can hold a float running adjacent to the canoe, stabilizing it from tipping.

In the context of these planes, however, here is a plow plane patented by Chapin-Rust that uses outriggers to support the fence as-if it were a float on a canoe, using slots in the outrigger that a screw can pass through and tighten against.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

> I don t think there is any need to make the fence as long as the plane-might look strange to have a 17" long fence-that s almost as long as a Stanley No 6). Plus, too long and we risk turning the entire fence into a flexure.
> - DevinT
> 
> The fence needs to be long enough to be registering at the point the cut starts & finishes I d have thought? (never tried though, so could be wrong)
> ...


You are correct. OK, full-length fence it is. I am also feeling less like it would be unsightly after considering the distance between elements. For example, for an 18" long fence, I could place the first rod 4.5" in from the leading edge, then the screw 4.5" from that, then the final rod 4.5" from that, leaving 4.5" to the heel. I think that should be plenty of support, especially riding atop 1/2" rods.

If the friction on the rods is too great, my plan is to use paste wax to reduce the friction. I don't anticipate any issues though. I think a good wide fence over the rods is a requirement though. Nothing like 1/4" or even 1/2". Thinking 3/4, 4/4, or perhaps just using some of the 6/4 required for the body of the plane.


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## DavePolaschek (Oct 21, 2016)

If you need a specialty 1-8 knurled nut, I have a 1-8 tap and die I occasionally use on wood. Could loan them to you, or could tap a piece of brass. I don't know that I'd want to try tapping tool steel without more practice.

A shop-made knurling-tool doesn't look too hard to make. I've also seen them made with pieces of file.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

> If you need a specialty 1-8 knurled nut, I have a 1-8 tap and die I occasionally use on wood. Could loan them to you, or could tap a piece of brass. I don't know that I'd want to try tapping tool steel without more practice.
> 
> A shop-made knurling-tool doesn't look too hard to make. I've also seen them made with pieces of file.
> 
> - Dave Polaschek


Wow, *Dave*, that's some really nice work. Oh, and how coincidental that you just started talking about knurling as I was posting this thread about knurling by hand

Yeah, I think if I want a 1-8 based screw, I would have to either tap a wood nut or have you make me a thumb screw, since not even McMaster Carr carries knobs with ID threads that large.

I think I have left myself in a good position with the 1/2" dia. support rods, speaking specifically to the fact that if I can't get enough torque out of the 1/4"-20 threaded rod, that I can just bump up to 1"-8.

Thank you for the offer, and I may take you up on it if the 1/4"-20 can't handle it.

I do have some slight concerns about a 6" long 1"-8 thread adding too much weight to the thing. Imagine picking up your vise every time you went to use the plane (OK OK, a vise's weight is mostly its body, but still, those screws are pretty heavy from the last time I held a 1"-8 screw in my hands, though I could be mis-remembering the weight).


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## DavePolaschek (Oct 21, 2016)

A 6" long piece of 1"-8 steel or brass would be super heavy. But made of maple, maybe not too bad, but if a 1/4-20 rod won't do it, a 3/8-16 is more than double the strength of 1/4-20, and that wouldn't be too heavy. No point in going too overkill on it.

I saw your knurling thread, too, but had to head out to my sweetie's birfday dinner. Now we're fat dumb and happy.


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

The idea of two rods and one screw is to separate the function guidance/support from the function adjustment. So the screw doesn't need to be as strong as the rods.

If the fence is waxed, it will slide along the board edge without much effort on the rods.
One hand pushes the fence against the board edge, the other hand pushes the plane body forward.

IMO the bended rods are due to plane fall.
Heavy rods means more weight and a bigger impact.

If solid rods are too heavy, tubes might be an alternative. The center of a rod doesn't contribute much to the strength.

Have you seen how Paul Sellers modify the light sash clamps? He is inserting a wooden core in the aluminium extrusion. 



One could line wooden rods. If the wooden end is protruding, it can be glued easily to the body.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

> The idea of two rods and one screw is to separate the function guidance/support from the function adjustment. So the screw doesn t need to be as strong as the rods.


I must disagree on this point. Not about strength, but alignment.

If the plow plane (or any plane) has two or more screws to hold the fence, each screw must be rotated exactly the same number of revolutions otherwise the fence is no longer parallel to the body of the plane. This necessitates some kind of setup cost that is eliminated by having only a single screw for adjustment.



> If the fence is waxed, it will slide along the board edge without much effort on the rods.
> One hand pushes the fence against the board edge, the other hand pushes the plane body forward.


Not talking about waxing the fence. Did you know you can wax metal? Paste wax on metal is a thing.

I am talking about waxing the guide arms to make the fence adjust smoothly.

In my experience, the fence does not need wax. The fence merely needs to be hard (like boxwood which has a similar Janka hardness rating to Cocobolo). Waxing the fence won't hurt, but that's not what I was talking about.

The larger diameter the guide rods are, the more surface area to impart friction, which will increase the amount of required torque on the adjustment screw to move the fence in and out from the body of the plane. Paste wax dries to form a hard shell and reduces the amount of friction between two materials-be they wood and metal, wood and wood, or metal and metal.



> IMO the bended rods are due to plane fall.


Which bended rods? Are you referring to the Norcross patent? I don't think that's an example of failed rods, I think it was designed that way.



> Heavy rods means more weight and a bigger impact.


Well, in my case, one generally wants a lighter touch with a pull saw, compared to a heavier touch. The more force you put behind it the more deflection is bound to occur, albeit mitigated mostly by the fact that it cuts on the pull stroke, I still tend to take a very gentle approach with cuts using this saw. In my experience more impact due to greater weight would be a bad thing in this case.



> If solid rods are too heavy, tubes might be an alternative. The center of a rod doesn t contribute much to the strength.


Yes, I mentioned this above when I talked about using square tubing and capping the ends.



> Have you seen how Paul Sellers modify the light sash clamps? He is inserting a wooden core in the aluminium extrusion.
> 
> 
> 
> One could line wooden rods. If the wooden end is protruding, it can be glued easily to the body.


I had not seen that video.

I actually disagree with Paul. He says the clamp seems cheap when he gets it and that stuffing wood into it makes it feel less cheap. In my opinion, his modification has no effect on how cheap it looks and feels. In fact, I am even willing to go as far as to say that he made it chintzy.

I would rather have tubing that was hollow in the center with a nice rosewood cap and have the metal polished to a shine.

I'm not making a clamp, I am making a hand plane/saw-and I think that requires a bit more finesse than shoving a manufactured wood product like MDF into cheap metal tubing.

I do love the enthusiasm, but I generally do the opposite of everything Paul Sellers recommends.


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

Many misunderstandings here.

1st point: I don't see where we disagree, the guidance is done by the two rods where two rods and a screw are used. Using the screw as a third guidance would need extra care.

2nd point: I know you weren't speaking about waxing the fence. 
My point was: there is not much effort on the rods in normal use, especially if one wax the fence. 
I have waxed the (metal) fence of my rebate plane #78 and of my veritas plough plane and it is much nicer to use them that way.

3rd and 4th points: as IMHO there is not much stress on the guide rod, if when buying a 2nd hand plane, the rods are bended, it is probably due to a fall. A heavier plane will suffer more.

5th point: yes you mentioned earlier the possible use of tubes. I was reacting to the exchange with Dave Polaschek about the weight.

6th point: I take note you don't like the idea. I have to say though, that P.S. uses solid wood to stuff the clamps, not MDF which would not add any strength.

Please note:
English is not my mother language;
What I write is not necessarily a direct reaction to what you write unless there is a quote; there is a bit of brainstorming as if i was pursuing the same goal;
I am just trying to help.


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## MikeB_UK (Jul 27, 2015)

> If the plow plane (or any plane) has two or more screws to hold the fence, each screw must be rotated exactly the same number of revolutions otherwise the fence is no longer parallel to the body of the plane. This necessitates some kind of setup cost that is eliminated by having only a single screw for adjustment.
> - DevinT


It's a trade off though.

You are much more likely to get some racking with 1 screw and 2 guide rods, so you need to have significantly higher tolerances and any seasonal warp/flex will make it more likely to bind.

Having 2 arms with independent locking means you need to be more precise when setting the arms, but the whole system is more forgiving for any wood movement (probably more important if your shop is outdoors without heat/aircon). The arms can be a fairly loose fit because you are using the locking mechanism to fix it in place.
You can also flatten the fence much easier as everything just folds out of the way.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

> Many misunderstandings here.
> 
> 1st point: I don t see where we disagree, the guidance is done by the two rods where two rods and a screw are used. Using the screw as a third guidance would need extra care.
> 
> ...


Ah, thank you for clearing these points up. All makes perfect sense now.

Please believe me when I say you *are* a help. Please, keep 'em coming.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

> If the plow plane (or any plane) has two or more screws to hold the fence, each screw must be rotated exactly the same number of revolutions otherwise the fence is no longer parallel to the body of the plane. This necessitates some kind of setup cost that is eliminated by having only a single screw for adjustment.
> - DevinT
> 
> It s a trade off though.
> ...


Well, it stands to reason then that the best of all Worlds would be the Chapin-Rust patent, 2 guide arms *AND* a central adjustment screw *AND* screws to lock onto the guide arms.

I'm going to take this advice and throw some brass thumb screws over the brass rod (purchased ahead of time because I suspected I might have a use for them). More rigidity at the cost of simply loosening a couple screws prior to adjustment could never hurt (how often do you adjust the fence during an operation anyway?)


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

The parts list is growing. Here's what I have so far:

1. 1 x Saw blade-OK
2. 4×1/4"-20 threaded inserts-OK
3. 2 x M6 threaded inserts-OK
4. 2 x M6 custom shoulder thumb screw-OK
5. 2×1/4"-20 swivel flange nut-OK
6. 2×1/4"-20 brass thumb screw-OK
7. 2×1/4"-20 thumb nut-OK
8. 2×1/2" diameter C360 solid brass rod at 6" length (each)-1 OK, Waiting on 1
9. Epoxy-OK
10. 2×1/4"-20 blind knurled knob-1 OK, Waiting on 1
11. 6/4 lumber-Will purchase after designs are completed, so I know how much to get
12. 3/4 lumber-Same as the 6/4 lumber

All items are acquired except for a thumb screw and brass rod in the mail and the lumber which I can just walk across the street to MacBeath to get when I am ready.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Now that I have developed a taste for what kind of fence style I like (3-arm), I have suddenly become aware of how rare 3-arm style plow/plough fences are.

Gives me the warm fuzzies knowing I am resurrecting a rare and - according to some folks - rather popular style.

Correction on the above:

2. 5×1/4"-20 threaded inserts

Last but not least, I pulled up the Chapin-Rust patent

Turns out that E.M. Chapin and Solon Rust had a different reason for their design than I - and others, including auctioneers - had imagined.

They stated in their patent that the reasoning for their design was solely to eliminate the protrusion of the arms through the body because apparently it was a common annoyance of the day that you had to clear your bench because the plane's arms were in the way (that only having the arms on one side of the plane was more svelt).


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I know some may think the design has already reached the point of over-complication, but, ... let me run this idea past you.

There are 1 arm plow planes, 2 arm, and (my favorite), 3 arm plows.

I think I have a use for a 4th. Hear me out.

How far is the fence from the blade? Could a 4th arm like that of the Norcross patent (curved arm connected to pivot-in-slot) provide a cursor to display a distance reading as the screw is adjusted?

Thinking out loud.


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## MikeB_UK (Jul 27, 2015)

Go for 5 
Screw adjustment and a cris cross either side for stability.

That norcross arm means the entire fence folds forward and back, you'd be better off just sticking a ruler on one of the beams.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

The beams are rods Andy to engrave a rod "properly" in my opinion that me would need a 3D carving tool, else it would look strange (again, in my opinion) to put flat engravings on a round bar.

I am thinking now just a mortise that a flat plexiglass arm with engravings that slides in and out of the plane body with the fence. I have enough room behind the blade by the tote to do this


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

It just occurred to me that there is an easier solution here.

Take a cheap Mr. Pen ruler and glue it to some wood, attach it to the fence, and have it slide in and out of the body as the fence is moved.

I have made many rulers but I think for this one, there is no need to make my own.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

too much planning dev i need to see some production,ive got a chinese guy that says he can do fast and cheap! only problem it will take 6 months shipping time and cost more than the tool.so youve got a window to get it done.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I mentioned above that parts in inbound


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

2021 plane swap was a 30-day design followed by 30-day production.

I gave myself 30-days for this design. Not sure where we are right now.

/me scrolls to top

Looks like we are at 46.

E-Gads, I've apparently run over my time estimate on design on this one. Well, I didn't have the swap deadline looming this time and I wasn't a parent yet.

I think I am doing pretty good though. Shouldn't be much longer for the design to be completed.

The good thing about the design phase is that it only has to be done once (from then on it's just minor adjustments).

6 months? OK. I can work in that timeframe. Once the first one is built I can get an estimate on production time for each one.

I am also going to set aside some money at the end of the year for a production run.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> 2021 plane swap was a 30-day design followed by 30-day production.
> 
> I gave myself 30-days for this design. Not sure where we are right now.
> 
> ...


that my overly obsessive girl,always tweaking perfection.i expect no less from you ! but im getting anxious to see it made ?


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

> Take a cheap Mr. Pen ruler and glue it to some wood, attach it to the fence, and have it slide in and out of the body as the fence is moved.
> - DevinT


Hacking a cheap (plastic) vernier caliper for better precision.
Although it will only be useful if the fence is always parallel to the saw blade.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I was looking at a cheap Mitutoyo spring temper 6" engineering rule and using magnets to hold it in place so I could unceremoniously rip the thing off the plane whenever I feel


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

After running a few tests, I think I am on to something.

Instead of incorporating a Mitutoyo, I'm going to incorporate my existing stable of Starrett rules by creating a magnetic cradle.

Seems the Starrett rulers are 0.995" tall, meaning that if I create a dado that is 1" wide and sink a magnet below the surface of the wood, I will have a place on the fence I can set the ruler where it can slide. Next, I put a magnet on the body of the plane flush with the surface. That magnet will hold the end of the Starrett ruler flush against the body of the plane as the fence is adjusted in and out. At any time, I can rip my Starrett ruler off the cradle.

Even better, should I need a particular granularity of measurement, I can flip and/or rotate the ruler as-needed to expose the proper units.

No hole in the body of the plane for the ruler to pass through. ASIDE: Which is good because I wasn't sure how exactly I was going to make such a thin slot anyhow. Was likely to experience too much friction anyway.

The magnets I have hold the steel rules very well.

To make it easier to set the ruler in the dado quickly, and to help the dado maintain its shape, I am going to put 1/8" dia. brass rod on either side of this cradle. I will use a 1/16" radius core box router bit to make the 1/8" dia. relief to hold the brass rod that will act as railing/bumpers for the cradle.

Also, I have had decided whether this will be a left-handed or right-handed affair (I could use either). I am making the design in such a way that you can cut it left-handed or right. I think I will make the first one right-handed. 88% of the country's population is right-handed, after all.


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

I would make a rough adjustment, measuring directly between the fence and the blade.
Then I would adjust finely with the knurled nut.
It might be convenient to have a graduated ring on the screw near the plane body, mimicking a micrometer caliper.










Of course in reality, the fence has to go in some way under the plane body; which gives some latitude to have the caliper indicating zero when the fence is at zero even tough the caliper has not his zero just above the saw blade.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Measuring all the way to the blade is not necessary because the fence will sit flush against the body when it is at its minimum adjustment (wherein the fence goes under the body to reset against the blade. So the body of the plane actually acts as a proxy for the blade, so long as the L-shaped fence rests against both the blade and the side of the body at the same time.

I love both your ideas. They are very nice. Some thoughts:

The graduated lead screw would be interesting. I imagine I would have something like 1/4-20 for the majority of the screw and something like 5/16-32 adjacent to the plane body. Butting two threaded inserts up against each other would be a bit challenging, otherwise I could first bore a 1/4" hole, tap the entire thing as 1/4-20, then bore out enough of the threads to accommodate the entire (supposedly short) 5/16-32 threaded portion of the rod, then tap that bore to 5/16-32 so that we transition onto the finer pitch threads as we get closer to the body.

While I think it can be done, I am not sure how difficult that would be, and it sounds like I would need to use single-point thread cutting to make sure the threads are matched in such a way to allow a non-binding transition.

Of course, I could be entirely off base with what you mean by a graduated ring.

Perhaps you meant to disassemble a micrometer and, perhaps, incorporate it into the adjustment.

Well, my plan was to have the fence flush against the body of the plane when the L-shape is also flush against the blade-giving a visual indicator based solely on the gap between fence and body as is traditionally done with a lot of wooden plows.

I'm not sure I would need more than 1/64" accuracy anyhow.

I am going to borrow from your second (bottom) drawing in the above photo. I think it's probably best to put the ruler right above the lead screw. I was originally going to put it at the rear by the handle, but I like it better (seeing it drawn) over the screw.

Not to mention that I can put a little shelf over the lead screw to protect it from injury-a shelf that the edge of the ruler can sit upon to secure it.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Oh, I also liked your idea of affixing a piece to the screw that has a cursor that rides on the ruler. That's a really clever idea and design.

However, if I were to do that, I would probably use a square brass rod to engrave the distance markings on (engraving on round brass rods really wants to be done in a CNC end mill with 3D carving capabilities). That in itself would kind of necessitate broaching a square hole for the cursor.

When I think about this design, it is really awesome. It has an antique style that I love.

I have no way of pulling it off, but I love it. I'd need to get broaching equipment first, or if anyone else has any other recommendations on how to make a cursor consisting of a threaded portion and a square hole to accept a square bar that doesn't involve broaching, I'm all ears.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

ASIDE: Barring something magnificent, the functional decisions have all been made, parts are on the way, and final designs are being rendered (this will take a couple weeks still). Unlike most people that might produce a little, change it slightly, iterate in production, then reveal, since I am using CNC to produce the product, production doesn't start until the end but once it does, it's like a freight train that doesn't stop. Once final SVGs are rendered, it's just a matter of following rote steps until completion.


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## DavePolaschek (Oct 21, 2016)

In the McMaster-Carr page on square broaches they talk about cutting one corner at a time. That may apply….

As for the Dave-way, I know it's not a Devin-approved high-accuracy approach, but I typically just drill a round hole and then attack it with a square or flat file, gradually enlarging it until the piece going into the square hole fits.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Well, yeah, but I was thinking of making that part out of metal. My chisels don't work so well on metals, though, this guy seems to have figured out a way, so it must be possible

Or there is the traditional methods


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Might look into using a Cape Chisel…..


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

WHAAATTTT?!? (voice increases immensely in pitch)










This is a thing?


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

I am not sure why you speak about two different threads.
The graduated ring (which could be a graduated disk to be looked at from the side) is just a means to know how much the fence would move when turning the (single) adjusting screw a fraction of a turn.
I you use a 20 thread per inch screw, 5 graduations would give you a 1/100" resolution; 8 graduation would give 1/160" resolution (so turning 5 graduations would move 1/32") and so on.

A hollowing out in the fence would make room for the ring or disk when the fence is flush against the body.









The disk or ring could be epoxied on the part of the swivel nut which turns with the (single) adjusting screw. Anyway, the swivel nut will need some room.
My drawings are just a means to convey the concepts. On the previous drawing, drawing the lower part of the fence would just have cluttered it.


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

Very simply:
a (wooden) puck with an hexagonal hole pushed on the part of the swivel nut rotating with the screw.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I *think* I understand the graduated ring principle. That's a bit beyond my capabilities at the moment, but it's a stupendous idea, very nice.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

happen to have a smaller Cape Chisel..









Herbrand No. 410…









Flaired part needs a little work…but..









Tape measure is almost as old as that chisel..

Mainly for cutting key-ways but can also cut slots…


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Very nice! I did check my great grandfather's tools, but just some sort of stone chisels, no cape chisels. I checked eBay and they don't too hard to acquire (and not too costly at that). I'll have to look into getting some for fun.


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

> I *think* I understand the graduated ring principle.
> - DevinT


- I have no doubt you understand.



> That s a bit beyond my capabilities at the moment,
> - DevinT


- Not at all. Making a round hole and cutting the corners with a chisel or with a rasp. To perfect the centering, one could sand the puck after mounting it on a nut (itself on a threaded rod) while making everything rotating.
Using a paper tape to get the circumference and marking the divisions


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Now I am as confused as ever and I don't think I understand anything about what you said regarding graduated ring/nut.


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)




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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Where is the graduation in this configuration? What has been confusing me is your use of the word graduated. I just can't figure out how you are getting graduated adjustments out of this setup, but I am probably just missing something very simple


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

HOLY JEEZUS, I figured out what you mean, and it is magnificent.

OK, so you're saying that the thumb screw at the end of the threaded rod, with a small OD, moves the fence quickly (and as you do so you can expect the big adjustment wheel on the rod to spin very quickly with its large OD). Conversely, the big wheel with its large OD when moved slowly will allow fine adjustment and as you do-so can expect the thumb screw at the end to rotate fractionally.

The difference in diameter allows for a fine and course adjustment on the same thread pitch.

It is so simple and yet ingenious and I am ashamed that I didn't realize what you were saying at first.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

However, this approach looks to require a lathe (trueing the OD)-optimally with minimal run-out (e.g., 4-jaw chuck). Since I don't have a lathe, and I don't know to calculate the proper OD, I don't know about my ability to pull that off.

Plus, not sure how one would implement a cursor.


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

> However, this approach looks to require a lathe (trueing the OD)-optimally with minimal run-out (e.g., 4-jaw chuck). Since I don t have a lathe, and I don t know to calculate the proper OD, I don t know about my ability to pull that off.
> 
> Plus, not sure how one would implement a cursor.
> 
> - DevinT


1. I am not sure it is absolutely necessary to true the wheel.

2. Putting the axle in a drill press and sanding is probably more than enough (if after making the hole hexagonal it is a bit off center.)

3. the maximum OD depends of the other dimensions. e.g. the height of the adjusting screw axis above the plane sole (see bottom of drawing in comment #381).
The diameter is not critical.
The initial idea was to have an indicator related to the fence movement when doing a fraction of a turn of the adjusting screw with the knurled knob. If the wheel can also be used as a thumb wheel, why not.

4. a piece of wood/metal/plastic with a line and glued at a convenient place will provide the needed landmark.

Even if you are not a fan of Paul Sellers, have a look at his Instagram dated 24 September to see how to "true" a wooden disk with a plane.


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## PCDub (Sep 24, 2017)

> Might look into using a Cape Chisel…..
> 
> - bandit571


Seeing this-I realized that some cold chisels I picked up (when an old old hardware store was going out of business) are actually cape chisels. I had no idea what could be done with them! I bought them b/c I wanted some smaller "cold chisels" than my big ole craftsman chisel.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Yeah, I knew about cold chisels, but cape chisels open a whole new World simply be being able to slot steel with them (let alone the other things you can do with them).

Of course, that ol'e saying applies …

"We're going to need a bigger hammer."


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Can also add a slot for a screwdriver to the head of a bolt…if need be…or chase a messed up slot…


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

> However, this approach looks to require a lathe (trueing the OD)-optimally with minimal run-out (e.g., 4-jaw chuck). Since I don t have a lathe, and I don t know to calculate the proper OD, I don t know about my ability to pull that off.
> 
> Plus, not sure how one would implement a cursor.
> 
> ...


Well, the necessity to true the wheel *and* to use a specific OD stems from the idea that if the wheel was an integer scale (say, 2x, or 3x) larger, then it would be the case that the circumferential distance traveled by the outer diameter of the wheel would always land on a horizontal integer boundary (along the screw axis) and thus … as you previously mentioned making this act like a micrometer, one need only sparsely mark the adjacent surface.

I will explain …

Let's say a threaded insert travels 0.05" per revolution of the rod. Let's also say that the wheel is 20" in circumference to make things easy (where circumference is pi x radius-squared, giving us a diameter of approximately 5 inches; 5.0462" diameter to be precise, or 5" and a little more than 1/32").

Instead of putting a tape measure about the circumference, which would measure from 0" to 20", if the wheel was trued and engraved with markings from 0" to 0.05" to represent the screw pitch (e.g., 1/4"-20), then the wheel acts more like a micrometer.

Of course, the only problem with this approach is that folks that use the imperial system don't generally use 1/20th of an inch increments for anything. Halves, quarters, eighths, tenths, sixteenths, 32nds, 50ths, 64ths, 100ths, 1000ths, and tenths-of-thousandths are pretty much any imperialist uses (wherein tenths, 50ths, 100ths, 1000ths, and tenths-of-thousandths are generally only used for machinist work).

That being said, I would think the screw pitch is the deciding factor here for such an approach (which I know you were not recommending, it's just naturally where my mind went). I would think that in this case, we'd want to go coarser (since this is a woodworking tool).

McMaster Carr offers a 1/4"-8 threaded rod, but in rounded acme fast-travel lead screws only. That could work, but it's getting pretty specialized.

If we step up to 3/8" as recommended by *Dave Polaschek*, McMaster offers a 3/8"-8 screw and nut that look more traditional and less specialized. Those would work, because with 8 TPI, we're looking at a travel of 0.125" per revolution and if we have a wheel with, say, 16" circumference (giving us a diameter of approximately 4.5 inches; 4.5136" diameter to be precise, less than 1/64" more than 4-1/2").

With a 16" wheel circumference on a screw pitch that travels 0.125" per revolution, we can sub-divide that 0.125" (1/8") into 16 parts if we only marked every inch on the wheel edge. That would give us 1/8"/16 or 1/128" divisions. I could spin the outer wheel diameter by a full inch and only advance 0.00781" along the screw.

However, a 4.5" diameter wheel is pretty big. I'd want it to probably be no bigger than 3", so let's work the circumference down by imperial steps until we get a nice tight diameter.

The next step down would be an 8" circumference. That would produce a diameter of 3.1916" or a hair over 3-3/16". I think that's a good wheel size. Markings every inch should be labeled in 1/8"/8 or 1/64". That's actually quite incredible to think about. On a 3" diameter wheel, one marking every inch on the circumference would represent 1/64" lateral movement on a 3/8"-8 threaded rod. Amazing because we could easily then switch over from marking every inch on the circumference to marking every 1/32".

That would allow us to sub-divide *down to* 1/64"/32 or a mind boggling 1/2048" or approximately one half-thou or 5-tenths as one might say in imperial machinist jargon).

That's a bit extreme for woodwork, and in reality marking once every inch on the diameter to represent every 1/64" of travel is probably just fine-but, ... there obviously would be no harm in marking every 1/2" to represent every 1/128" of travel. Lord knows there have been occasions when I needed (yes, in woodwork) to know approximately half of 1/64"-though I admit that it's not the norm.

So, this is where I was coming from when I said that it probably should be trued and use a specific OD (e.g., to produce 8" circumference as closely as possible).

And if your wheel has markings ranging from 0" to 0.125" then there would be no need to mark anything finer than every 1/8" on the adjacent ruler. Like a micrometer, one would read the nearest 1/8" then add the reading from the wheel.

I think this approach is quite ingenious (much as the micrometer itself is a marvel of engineering), if not a little annoying to read though.

I get where you were coming from too … that you can use an arbitrary OD producing some unknown circumference that is inconsequential because you wouldn't be using the measurement as a proxy for lateral movement (and also the thread pitch doesn't matter).

I was taking a much simpler (maybe a cheater) way out …

Buy a Starrett C604R-6 and utilize the fact that-being a 4R engineering rule-it has 4 different scales that allow me to flip and/or rotate the ruler any way I like to use the scale that is important to me at the time. Maybe I only want 1/8" level of accuracy for one cut, or maybe I am doing some kerf bending and need to account for the 1/32" wide kerf that the blade leaves when trying to put 1/8" material between each kerf (requiring that I flip the 4R engineering rule around to make 1/32" markings adjacent to the cursor-which need be nothing more than the edge of the fence if it sits flush against the body of the plane whilst also being flush against the blade under the body).

There are a great many 6" engineering rulers out there, but I'm specifically after the variability of precision in 4R here. No need to go crazy like with 4RE (which has end scales as well as scales on all sides) and above, just need a good 4R ruler that can be held on with magnets so that when I go to use the thing, I am not fighting myself.

You see … I love 4R rulers. Because they prevent me from getting stuck in my mind. When I approach the task, I first decide the level of precision that is either required or desired and limit myself to using tools that achieve that level of precision and no more. I tend to work faster this way and the demons in my brain can't complain if the markings aren't there to distract me. I flip the ruler around to the side I need, get it close enough, and keep moving.

Not to get distracted here, but Shaper Origin is equally and simultaneously my greatest advantage as well as biggest curse. Everything I make with Origin is usually dialed-in to 0.001" precision, all the time, every time. It takes me a long time to make the SVG's because they are dead-precise in the computer before they ever get uploaded to the Shaper. I sit there and zoom in on things to 25600% magnification and test all fits based on notes from my notebooks about how things map digitally into different materials such as soft woods, hard woods, metals, plastics, etc. Sometimes it's a nightmare-which is why I am really loving hand tools lately (and using my Shaper Origin to create hand tools).


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

And then I realized circumference is C = 2 pi r

But hopefully you understand what I meant.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Given the *proper* calculation for circumference (either *C = 2 π r* or *C = π d*):

a 16" circumference would require 5.0930" diameter
an 8" circumference would require 2.5454" diameter

The former (~5" dia.) seems a bit large.
The latter (~2.5" dia.) seems about right.

So nothing discussed above changes.

However, the issue I have with this approach is two-fold:

1. Engraving on a circumference is difficult

2. Once engraved, we've basically said that to switch from imperial to metric, you have to use a different wheel (which could be difficult if you've cemented the wheel to the threaded rod)

Another reason why I wanted to use an industry standard rule (such as a C604R-6 from Starrett) is that if you wanted to switch from imperial to metric, you could just switch out the rule for a metric one.

For example, this Mitutoyo is the same size as a Starrett C604R-6 in every way, except that on one side it has 1/32" and 1/64", while the other has mm and 1/2 mm scales.

If you were to use one of those rulers instead of the Starrett, you could flip back and forth between imperial and metric with ease.

For my personal needs though, I like the ability to switch to a lower-resolution scale on the flip-side (e.g., the Starrett with 1/16" and 1/8" scales on the obverse face).


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

1. I am sorry to have mentioned the micrometer.
In a micrometer the rotation is combined with a movement along the length.
This could have easily been made possible if the adjusting screw were immovable (except rotation) with regard to the fence and were traversing a threaded plane body.
But here, the screw is traversing the threaded fence and not moving (except rotation) with regard to the plane body.

A wheel fixed on the swivel nut will only rotate without displacement along the length of the screw.

To have a micrometer like indicator, one would need a wheel which move with the fence and which rotates with the screw. Here that would mean:
- a groove in the screw to make a keyed wheel rotate and
- a swivel attachment of the wheel to the fence.

2. Having found the wheel circumference with the paper tape, it is easy to graphically divide its length in N equal space with a (school) square sliding along a rule while applying the intercept theorem; and this whatever the length to be divided.
Then putting the tape back on the wheel one can transfert the graduation on it, whatever its diameter was.
That is why, IMO, the wheel diameter can be whatever is practical.
(One could also use a divider by trial and error.) (I guess few people have an indexing table; I don't.)

3. As we know, for T thread per inch or mm or whatever unit, one turn will move the fence 1/T unit.
If the wheel has N graduations, turning one graduation will relate to a 1/NT unit movement whatever the diameter of the wheel.
If one wants, for example, 1/NT=1/64, knowing that 64 is 2exp(6), we must find N and T such that
T=2exp( t) and N=2exp such that t+n=6
If one wants 1/NT=1/100, NT= 2X2X5X5 and one can choose for example T=20 and N=5 or another combination like T=10 and N=10. 
But if one accept to rotate the wheel more than one graduation there are more possibilities (as in a previous comment T=20 and N=8, one achieve 1/32 while turning 5 graduations.)


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

It seems 
having a metric indicator with a US customary thread screw or
having a US customary indicator with a metric thread screw,
would be impossible unless, maybe, using intermediate gear wheels.
I have to find how it is done on metal lathe to be able to do either thread types.


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

another concept:









or a separate rack and pinion.

Going full circle:
Finally, the easiest solution is a rule attached to the body with a vernier cursor attached to the fence.
If one change the rule ("imperial"/ metric), one has to change the vernier cursor.
Although, most cheap (a few $) 6" plastic vernier caliper have the two scales/cursors already.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Super excellent points. I am sorry I haven't been able to give you my usual quick and substantive reply; I have been ill lately.

You are correct on all notes.

The last shipment of parts finally arrived and I was able to make it down to the shop to arrange all the parts that I think I will need, and took this photo:










Of course, the handle comes off the saw and I will be utilizing the blade and screw, but not the handle.










Until I finalize the CNC files, I have packaged up the ~35 parts so they stay together










I haven't run the actual numbers yet, but I estimate that we are around a material cost of $50 or less (not counting cost of wood).

Goal is to keep everything under $100, using off-the-shelf good quality parts that are readily available.

The problem I see is that while planes and plane kits are affordable, kerfing planes appear to defy both availability as well as affordability. You either have to cross-purpose an inexpensive antique stair saw sacrificing antique value or pay $150+ for a kit or pay $400+ for a new one (Quangsheng Luban No 43 aside because of the first pillar, availability).

Like my smoothing plane from the swap, I will be giving away the plans and linking to the components available online.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

This is kind of what I envision Devin building:

https://www.jimbodetools.com/products/full-size-copy-of-the-famous-montgomery-plow-plane-by-jim-leamy-81021u-as-of-may-9


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I've seen that plane before but somehow never noticed the very elegant 2-arm linkage creating a fence distance gauge.

Woof. $14k. Certainly not a user.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> I've seen that plane before but somehow never noticed the very elegant 2-arm linkage creating a fence distance gauge.
> 
> Woof. $14k. Certainly not a user.
> 
> - DevinT


Yeah for a user you want to keep it under $3 k, like this one:
https://www.jimbodetools.com/products/marvelous-morris-patent-plow-plane-with-10-irons-perfect-77383r


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

> very elegant 2-arm linkage creating a fence distance gauge.
> 
> - DevinT


elegance of simplicity but not linear;
which doesn't allow the use of a vernier (like on a sextant). 
Otherwise one would have to use a trigonometric table to convert angle to sinus


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Not to mention the whole thing looks too fragile to be used for what it was built for. (speaking of the $14k plow)

I mean, ideally it should survive a fall (or 3) off the workbench and still function just fine


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I've had a stroke of genius that will eliminate some complexity and now I am awaiting $30 in additional parts


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

It's been almost 2 weeks since I've put any real work into this because, dang, ... ouch.

All at the same time:
+ Caught a cold
+ Pinched a nerve in my neck
+ Right arm numbness, weakness, and pain

And that has been going on for 2 weeks. Every day I feel a little better. Taking Aleve for the pain and DayQuil for the cold. The pain in my neck, shoulder, arm, and wrist (and occasionally down my leg) is so great, I can't even imagine pushing a hand plane right now, let alone maneuvering the Shaper.

I've had pinched nerves before, but I've never had the pain persist for greater than a day or two (and here we are going on 2 weeks). I'm just chalking it up to getting older.

*EDIT:* That and getting used to carrying a newborn that continues to grow. He's up to 15 lbs now (we had pediatric visit yesterday), and about 25 inches. This kid needs to learn to start walking soon-I know he's only 4 months old, but sheesh, I can't be carrying all that extra weight all the time.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

Just remember…you spend the first year teaching them to walk and talk and the next 17 trying to get them to sit down and be quiet. ;-)


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

visiting an osteopath ?


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I am pretty sure that I am suffering from a serious case of cervical radiculopathy and if it doesn't get better by next Tuesday I am going to the doctor. Research says it can take as much as 3-4 weeks to recover. I am at the 9 or 10 day mark right now.

I am hopeful I can recover on my own and as soon as I am able to realize full motion again, I plan on working out to become stronger (as I have been told muscle strength helps to prevent herniated discs)


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

dev take care of yourself your too young to be dealing with those kinds of problems,old age will come with those issues soon enough.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

It took about 3 weeks to heal up (so Thanksgiving I was feeling better).

Then on Thanksgiving, I found out I was Secret Santa for my Aunt in the annual extended-family gift exchange. So I spent 3 weeks working on the "Ariondo" name plaque (see my projects).

Then on Dec 18 thru the 27th we drove down to Southern California for Christmas.

We are in self-quarantine now after having visited the family. So far no symptoms of anyone being sick, but we are cautious and staying away from others since we got back.

Packing and unpacking the vehicle from the trip was a real hardship with an infant. He is only 5 months old and my son has more baggage than I do (play pen, bouncy chair, toys, bottle warmer, stroller, car seat, blankets, so on, and so forth).

But, since getting back and unpacked, I am turning my attention back to this project, of course.

This is still my primary objective both for the prospect of using the design in the 2022 plane swap (it *is* a plane after all), using it to make my next smoother, and using it to make itself, and so on.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

> I ve had a stroke of genius that will eliminate some complexity and now I am awaiting $30 in additional parts
> 
> - DevinT


I'd like to share my stroke of genius.

This little assembly, consisting of an ordinary thumb screw, washers, and threaded insert will altogether save me from having to machine my own shoulder bolt.










What we have here is (from left to right):










1. Plain 300 Stainless Steel Knurled Thumb Screws, M4-0.7, 16 millimeters Head Diameter, 12 millimeters Length

2. 304 Stainless Steel Flat Washer

3. 18-8 Stainless Steel Flat Washer, Plain Finish, Meets DIN 125, M4 Hole Size, 4.3mm ID, 9mm OD, 0.8mm Nominal Thickness

4. (same as 2)

5. M4x9.5 mm Interface Hex Socket Threaded Insert Nuts for Wood Furniture




























Here is the magic …










That small washer has a very specific (and standard-DIN125) OD.




























That's *right*, this humble DIN125 metric washer which is mass produced in the millions has the proper OD that I have been looking for to fill the hang hole on this mass produced saw blade.

The blade itself is inexpensive (sub-$20) and the washer is equally inexpensive (sub-$0.10), and when combined, a jig can be easily created with the M4 thumb screw of your choice.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

In design, it works like the following:


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## DavePolaschek (Oct 21, 2016)

Glad you found a commercially available part that does the trick. Yay!


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## HapHazzard (Jan 9, 2016)

Let me know if you need any special small hardware bits made. I'm in PA, so it might take a while to get them to you, but I'd love to work with you if I can be of assistance.

Speaking of pinched nerves, I get those too, and the last time I got one in my back and also had a cough, so it was killing me. I took a leftover prednisone and it was gone by the next day.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

> Let me know if you need any special small hardware bits made. I m in PA, so it might take a while to get them to you, but I d love to work with you if I can be of assistance.
> 
> Speaking of pinched nerves, I get those too, and the last time I got one in my back and also had a cough, so it was killing me. I took a leftover prednisone and it was gone by the next day.
> 
> - HapHazzard


Thank you for the offer. There is one part that I cannot make which I am getting off the saw currently (because i have no choice) and since it has plastic, I think it detracts from the form.

However there are still a great many steps to be performed in the design stage yet, that I am not ready to start requesting custom parts yet.

I will let you know when I get closer to that need. The gist of the part I need is a shoulder bolt or two to make it so the thing doesn't look like a man wearing two different cuff links


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## Ocelot (Mar 6, 2011)

I just this morning watched a video on re-sawing with a frame saw, from Renasance WoodWorker in which whatisname Shannon explained the problem with kerfing planes. In short, he said, since all the teeth are cutting at once and it's a long way to the end of the board, you need big gullets to hold the sawdust. Blackburn makes one with big gullets but Shannon doesn't use one … says it's not neccesary and makes it harder to tell where you were cutting when you stop and flip the board over.

Just thought I'd pass that on in case it has any bearing on your design process.


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## HapHazzard (Jan 9, 2016)

> Thank you for the offer. There is one part that I cannot make which I am getting off the saw currently (because i have no choice) and since it has plastic, I think it detracts from the form.
> 
> However there are still a great many steps to be performed in the design stage yet, that I am not ready to start requesting custom parts yet.
> 
> I will let you know when I get closer to that need. The gist of the part I need is a shoulder bolt or two to make it so the thing doesn't look like a man wearing two different cuff links


I'll be around. Just message me if you need anything.

Another resource you might not be familiar with is boltdepot.com. They carry all kinds of standard hardware, including really obscure stuff. They also have PDFs to help you identify hardware and master the arcane terminology of the fastener industry.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

> I just this morning watched a video on re-sawing with a frame saw, from Renasance WoodWorker in which whatisname Shannon explained the problem with kerfing planes. In short, he said, since all the teeth are cutting at once and it s a long way to the end of the board, you need big gullets to hold the sawdust. Blackburn makes one with big gullets but Shannon doesn t use one … says it s not neccesary and makes it harder to tell where you were cutting when you stop and flip the board over.
> 
> Just thought I d pass that on in case it has any bearing on your design process.
> 
> - Ocelot


Shannon is correct and I tackled this early in my design and even went so far as to model the problem and illustrate how a slanted geometry creates a better working tool by requiring less effort and producing better results (images below).

*NOTE:* Saw cuts on the pull stroke in my design




























ASIDE: Of course, once it is built, I will be able to evaluate the truthfulness of the above statements and analysis.

That justified my carcass design-current iteration shown below …










With more detail …










With the adjuster set for minimum depth, we can actually see that it is possible to angle the blade upward and cut largely with the smaller teeth at the heel of the saw (a feature of the saw-making it easier to start the kerf). I did this on purpose to maintain the ability to access that feature of the saw blade.










It is possible to, if desired, eliminate the angle at a particular depth, though for resawing you'd likely want to just work your way to full depth to maximize tracking of the saw (all reviews of kerfing planes that I have read talk about wanting a deeper kerf, about 1/2").










With the center of the blade perfectly parallel with the sole, we can see the natural angle that this saw is designed to be used at (when the handle is attached).










At its maximum depth, the deepest tooth reaches 0.77" from the sole (so you can cut through 3/4 lumber, or if you rotate to match the kerf on the other side, you can cut all the way through 6/4 lumber).



















Here is an example usage …










Of course, the best way to see the adjuster movement is to draw center lines for the hang hole as it pivots about the handle hole. I think this illustrates well how things have to move.



















And here (below) we can see the blade pivoting between min and max depths with a couple points in-between:










Those four blade positions would have the adjuster in these 4 positions:



















In the above photo, it is hard to see, but the bearing has the following rotations at the four depth positions from top-to-bottom depth:

1. Min depth produces -0.6 degrees bearing rotation

2. Depth at 3 degrees blade rotation produces -0.4 degrees bearing rotation

3. Depth at 0 degree blade rotation produces 0.0 degrees bearing rotation

4. Max depth produces 0.06 degrees bearing rotation

The grooves that capture the traveling cross pin are deep enough to allow for this rotation. Likewise, there is enough of a gap around the traveling block to allow for this tilting.

The carcass will be 1 1/4" thick (starting with 6/4 lumber that I plane down to thickness-I need to keep my lumber less than 1 1/2" thick because the longest router bit I have is 1.5").


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

> Thank you for the offer. There is one part that I cannot make which I am getting off the saw currently (because i have no choice) and since it has plastic, I think it detracts from the form.
> 
> However there are still a great many steps to be performed in the design stage yet, that I am not ready to start requesting custom parts yet.
> 
> ...


Thank you!


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## Ocelot (Mar 6, 2011)

Well Devin, after you have done all the work, I figure some folks are going to copy it. Looks great.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

Sorry Devin (naysayer here), but I am still not convinced this is going to work as you think. Unless I am missing something, with the blade slanted you will be engaging fewer teeth with each pass until finally just the last tooth is cutting. Also, assuming that bottom of the gray shape acts like a sole of a plane, the part hanging back behind the blade (looks like the handle) will prevent the shallowest teeth from making contact at all. If you draw a line from the deepest tooth to the heel, only the deepest tooth will ever make contact because as it cuts deeper only that tooth is still deep enough to cut. From what I can tell, for this to work at all, you basically have to use just like you would use regular Japanese pull saw at the beginning of the cut with the handle tilted upward. All it really does is limit the depth of cut which can be done more simply, IMO.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

*Lazyman*,

Yes, you mentioned this on September 8th.

In Post #31 ...



> It doesn't make sense to me to angle the blade. [...] only the deepest tooth will be cutting an any given time [...]"


Post #39 ...



> [...] only the back teeth may be cutting when you get close to full depth [...]


And post #45 ...



> One concern about using a Ryoba blade for this is that it needs pretty deep teeth so that the saw dust has a place to go. If you look at the Blackburn blade image above, you can see that he puts huge gullets for that. Otherwise you may have to (more) frequently clear the built up sawdust out of the kerf.
> 
> I don't have a kerfing plane but every video I have ever seen of a kerfing saw in use show the action more like sawing than using a plough plane. You usually start a cut with plough plane differently where you typically start near the end of the cut and take progressively longer cuts until you reach the back end and then make full length cuts. With a kerfing plane, I have typically seen people start at the back end and work the entire length of the board from the start. This is probably helps to push any sawdust out of both ends of the kerf.


I addressed this in-detail in post #46



> [...] Now this is where we get into trigonometry. [...]


Then SMP posted a picture of a rebate/rabbet saw plane with an angled blade.

I didn't see any responses from you to the evidence presented that a saw that cuts on the pull stroke will have no issues being angled in the way I have illustrated.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

I didn't even try to follow the math you presented. I really didn't understand the logic so didn't dive into the math. It seemed to me that you were calculating the most wood that a tooth might remove not addressing the issue that as the depth proceeds, each pass uses fewer teeth. You seemed to be implying that with the right angle you could run the saw down the length and cut to depth in a single pass. Basically, I think there is more going on than how much wood a single tooth could theoretically cut.

Also, since that time you have added the handle to your design. You did say in one of your references that you plan to start the saw with all teeth engaged but my first picture above demonstrates that is not possible. The longish heel will lift most of the teeth between the toe and heel off the surface so at the start of the cut, you are only cutting with the front of the blade. You could tilt it forward like my second picture but then you are cutting an angled kerf and as soon as the kerf is deeper than the teeth near the back, they will no longer be cutting. If you is possible (?) to chase an angled kerf down the length, unless you have the angle set so cuts perfectly, it seems like it would lift the sole off the edge. I don't see any advantage to a saw that works like that.

Call me a skeptic.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

> You did say in one of your references that you plan to start the saw with all teeth engaged but my first picture above demonstrates that is not possible


It appears to me that cherry you picked a depth that:

1. Illustrates your point

2. That is beyond a reasonable starting depth


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

> You could tilt it forward like my second picture


A cardinal sin was violated when you dipped the leading edge of the sole below the surface.

Do that with pretty much any plane and you will get the same result wherein the cut is deeper than the desired because geometrically you have lowered the depth stop (e.g., the sole when there is no dedicated stop) below the surface upon which it gauges.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

> You seemed to be implying that with the right angle you could run the saw down the length and cut to depth in a single pass.


Not sure where you got that idea.

If that was the case, why have a depth adjuster? Single pass? Please. That's ridiculous.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

> limit the depth of cut which can be done more simply, IMO.


Well? Out with it. Let's see some simpler designs for slantless DoC.

*EDIT:* due to the tapered nature of the Ryoba blade, if you mount the blade angled to the sole to present the teeth without slant, your range of depth will be limited by the more narrow end of the taper. In other words, remove the slant and your maximum achievable depth will suffer regardless of how you implement adjustment of depth.

*FURTHER EDIT:* using a small depth stop with an outrigger and screw common to molding and plow planes would not be advisable because that would require enough fixed plate to be exposed to achieve maximum depth which would require sacrificing blade support. The radial motion while perhaps not ideal for speedy cuts at depth is not of concern to me because for one, this is a precision tool, not a quick roughing tool, and secondly (and perhaps more importantly), I want as much of the blade supported as possible. A dead simple outrigger style depth stop is not suitable for this type of work in my opinion and will lead to the saw wandering and since much of this tool's purpose will be to make a saw track to prevent wandering, it would be unforgivable for the tool to be susceptible. So what if fewer teeth engage the deeper you go. I really don't think it will be a problem considering the fair trade-off for maximum blade support.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

> I didn't even try to follow the math you presented. I really didn't understand the logic so didn't dive into the math.


Namesake earned


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

> You did say in one of your references that you plan to start the saw with all teeth engaged but my first picture above demonstrates that is not possible
> 
> It appears to me that cherry you picked a depth that:
> 
> ...


I just picked one of your pictures where it was easy to see. Since I don't have a model built where I could easily adjust the depth I cannot verify a depth where the rear teeth do any work with the sole flat sticking out that far, but since you want a better example here it is. I simply drew a line where the back of the sole intersects the back of the blade. The blue wedge represents the saw blade. I don't know how deep that makes the front of the blade at your scale (1/4"?) but it is certainly not going to give you a very deep kerf without increasing the depth after you get started. And when you increase the depth, only the front of the blade is going to be cutting, which is my main point about the tilted blade design.












> You could tilt it forward like my second picture
> 
> A cardinal sin was violated when you dipped the leading edge of the sole below the surface.
> 
> Do that with pretty much any plane and you will get the same result wherein the cut is deeper than the desired because geometrically you have lowered the depth stop (e.g., the sole when there is no dedicated stop) below the surface upon which it gauges.


True, I was simply trying to show the only way to have the rear teeth do any work with the heel being so long. I suppose you could start at the back end of the cut with the heel tilted down instead to avoid the problem with the depth of cut going beyond the desired depth but in either way, you are basically using it like a hand saw with a depth stop (but only the depth on the end matters). For maximum cutting efficiency a design where the blade protrudes evenly below the stop would be better, IMO.



> You seemed to be implying that with the right angle you could run the saw down the length and cut to depth in a single pass.
> 
> Not sure where you got that idea.
> 
> ...


Exactly my point ,that *would *be ridiculous for a long cut like that.  As I said, I didn't follow the logic or at least the reason you calculated how deep of a cut each tooth would or could make based upon the tilt in response to my point that as the cut proceeds, fewer and fewer teeth were actually doing any cutting. You explained that you realized that the amount of cut would be wood that the previous tooth did not remove and calculated how much wood that would be. Correct? The only reason I could come up with for calculating that is that you were assuming that each tooth would try to remove that much wood. If it could, it seems like it would make a full depth cut in a single pass.

Anyway, I was simply trying demonstrate a flaw I see with your current design iteration so you can fix it. Lazy? Yes, but still trying to find a better way.

Side note: The idea of making a full depth cut in one pass with a tilted blade is actually not totally ridiculous. The Bridge City Jointmaker Pro saw table actually does that; just not on long rip cuts like that. Not sure what the actually rip capacity of the JMP is. You may have to make multiple passes raising the blade with each pass? The only rip cuts I have seen in demos are for relatively sort and thin pieces.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

> I just picked one of your pictures where it was easy to see.


Understood. Lumberjocks scales images down when you upload them to this site (compared to hosting it elsewhere and linking to it).

I will take two pictures I previously posted and blow them up for you and annotate them to make things more clear …



















Zooming in …












> I don't know how deep that makes the front of the blade at your scale (1/4"?) but it is certainly not going to give you a very deep kerf without increasing the depth after you get started.


The image is of an area measuring 18 in x 7 in.
Lumberjocks scaled it to 500×201 pixels.

That means every pixel is ~1/32"

So choosing what is easy to see (due to lumberjocks downscaling the image) is not the wisest decision when 4 pixels is 1/8"

So, as can be seen by the above image …

~1/8" deep with all teeth engaged at no slant.



> only the front of the blade is going to be cutting


Yes, yes, we get it, you've made this point no less than 5 times now, however at -3 to 3 degrees of rotation, it really seems like you are splitting hairs., ... because … in reality and actual tests the point you are making-however correct at a sub-millimeter level-is immaterial in the grand scheme of things.



> I was simply trying to show the only way to have the rear teeth do any work with the heel being so long.


Or you can just raise the depth and disengage the front teeth.





































and you still get a 1/16" depth of cut with the blade raised in this configuration to produce a negative slant-AND you get to utilize the little rear teeth … which are actually smaller designed to make it easier to start the cut.

And I have previously stated that when the saw (as this saw does) has smaller teeth for starting the cut, you generally *want* those to disengage by holding the saw at a slant to disengage their use because they are easier to break, do not remove much material, and are slower cutting. So I am not sure why you are so insistent that all the teeth be engaged all the time-I think that is a ridiculous notion and it should be noted quite well that holding a Ryoba perpendicular with the floor as you saw … yep you guessed it … presents a tilted blade to the cut (*and* also cuts with less teeth as you progress). Wow, it's almost like the tool was designed to be used this way.



> my main point about the tilted blade design


Tilt the blade, don't tilt the blade, that's entirely up to you. There are depths with zero tilt, negative tilt, forward tilt, choose whatever you want.

I think a big misunderstanding is the scale at which the images are displayed.

This is a big beast of a plane. In your hand we're talking 18" long and 7" tall. This ain't no namby-pamby rinky-dink little thing, ... I'm making a coffin maker's kerfing plane. I thought this was evident by the handle (which has to fit a human hand, and I spent over 100 hours getting that handle to be perfect).



> For maximum cutting efficiency a design where the blade protrudes evenly below the stop would be better, IMO.


I don't care about efficiency. I thought I had made myself very clear, that I care about smoothness of operation, joy of use, and end results. I think you are stressing about the angle too much because you don't realize just how big this plane is going to be. It's going to be the size of a Stanley No 6.



> I didn't follow the logic or at least the reason you calculated how deep of a cut each tooth would or could make based upon the tilt


See post #37



> The only reason I could come up with for calculating that is that you were assuming that each tooth would try to remove that much wood. If it could, it seems like it would make a full depth cut in a single pass.


Well, we all know what happens when you assume things, and this assumption is one of those examples.

The reason that eluded you is perhaps the simplest reason of all …

To reduce the amount of resistance encountered in the use of the tool.

You kind of get an "aha" moment when you have watched every YouTube video there is on people *using* a kerfing plane-not just making it, but actually *USING* it … and you come to realize something …

These are grown men and they appear to have little to no control over this tiny ass tool. Tom Fidgen? It looks like he probably made 20 takes with the camera and then spliced the film together to make one shot where he isn't bouncing around the damn kerf like a fool.

The tool-in nearly every users' hands-appears to me to be a bucking bronco that just loves to take you for a wild ride.

I despise tools that are hard to control. I simply won't use them. I will rather spend decades searching for a better way than use a poorly designed tool. In my opinion, normal kerfing planes are exactly that tool.

Others have reported that the bucking is "not that bad" or that there are ways to control it, but I am going to apply my own experience and try my hand at making a kerfing plane that a lady would have a fun and easy time at using. I promise though to make it strong enough for a man-though maybe not you, you are perfectly welcome to label it an "underpowered" or "ineffective" hand tool, all the while I will be laughing as I kerf my way about without looking like a moron on video trying to expend boundless energy to control my tool.

You keep saying that fewer and fewer teeth being engaged like it's a bad thing.

I envision you as a muscly man. Paul Bunyan even perhaps. Don't you dare slant my saw by even 1 degree, damnit, I'm a manly man and when a hand saw doesn't do what I want, I just power through it. No gentle easing of my cuts here, and I want to get to full depth as fast as possible.

In my experience, haste makes waste because if that saw tracks off even the tiniest amount you'll pay for it in time later trying to clean that cut up.

The point is to NOT hastily make the cut but to sneak up on the depth.

Now, if you are hasty, however, the design doesn't stop you-if you need to do a quick resaw, set the depth to minimum, blast a 1/16" kerf around the whole board, then advance to the maximum depth and hit the 4 corners at a 45, then perform the resaw. In my mind, there's no reason to make deep kerfs for a resaw *except* at the corners where you have the ability to make the resaw track 2 kerfs (which you always want to keep your saw tracking 2 kerfs for best results).



> Anyway, I was simply trying demonstrate a flaw I see with your current design iteration so you can fix it. Lazy? Yes, but still trying to find a better way.


What you are seeing as flaws, I am seeing as advantages.

I implore you to either watch people trying to use kerfing planes or get one for yourself to see that they really aren't that great to use.

I understand you are trying to get me to design something that is more traditional, but I don't see the tradition as being the gold standard to target.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

> I envision you as a muscly man. Paul Bunyan even perhaps. Don't you dare slant my saw by even 1 degree, damnit, I'm a manly man and when a hand saw doesn't do what I want, I just power through it. No gentle easing of my cuts here, and I want to get to full depth as fast as possible.
> 
> - DevinT


Wow. Talk about making assumptions. I actually like the concept but as I think through your implementation, I see flaws. I had hoped that it would at least cause you to put together a quick prototype for proof of concept. I guess that too was bad assumption.

Anyway, I can see that you don't want critique or input. Again I made a bad assumption about you. I thought you wanted a conversation but I will keep my observations to myself.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

*Lazyman*, it is rather disingenuous behavior to knowingly take sarcasm and pretend to be a victim of behavior you were called out on.

It is further rather calculating to paint me as someone that is disinterested in feedback when:

1. You simply repeated your September 8 claims

2. You again continue to disregard the evidence that says you are wrong

And then, on top of *all* that, you have the balls to call me out for not having made a prototype yet when had you been reading you would have seen:

A. I recently dealt with injury and illness

B. I am a new parent

C. We went on vacation for Christmas

D. I had to acquire parts

E. I only recently documented-after the above-that I had successfully tested the critical part of securing the hang hole-before-which any prototype would be impossible to make


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I think we can safely form the presumption (yes, I'm making a "pres" out of u and me) that you are a "TL;DR" sympathizer and I'm only going to break this down for you once …

The critique you offered back on Sep 8 was analyzed and only at about 4.5 degrees of slant does the problem you are describing actually have a tangible and noticeable effect.

There, I just saved you from having to re-read hundreds of posts-which I presume you didn't read entirely to begin with.

*damn* there I go making a pres out of you and me again.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Oh, honey, I didn't drag you into anything.



> I had hoped that it would at least cause you to put together a quick prototype for proof of concept. I guess that too was bad assumption.


You brought your *A* game with statements like that.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

After some careful consideration, ...

*Lazyman* (Nathan) is correct that the extended sole attached to the handle presents an unnecessary limitation in the usage of the tool.

I did not build a prototype to come to this conclusion, rather over the course of several days I modeled various auxiliary fence designs as part of the final pieces I had yet to complete.

If the auxiliary fence is shorter than the blade depth then one cannot lift the blade out of the cut without losing contact with the reference face against the fence. If the blade is still moving at this point, it could introduce a wandering cut. The answer to this is that the auxiliary fence has to be at least as long as the greatest depth.

However, it gets more interesting than that …

*Nathan* was absolutely right to call me out on the new extended sole because I had forgot (and he tried to remind me, of which I am now reminded in my own modeling) the natural progression toward efficiency will invariably lead to arcing the cut to remove the most material by engaging the most teeth (yes, we are back to this - but I am conceding that Nathan is again correct) which not only inculcates the extended sole as a problem but effects the height of the auxiliary fence.

That is to explain that to get the most efficient cut by engaging the most teeth by angling the plane, I will not only have to lift the handle but make sure the auxiliary fence is long enough that contact against the reference face is maintained even when the plane is lifted to an angle.

The blade can descend 3/4" and so I am thinking of making the auxiliary fence 1 1/2" tall to allow for substantial meat to ride on the reference face.

Think I should make it thicker? I can get lumber all the way up to 16/4 at the lumber yard, though I think weight is not necessarily something that will make this plane easier to use.

Apologies Nathan, again you were right and you did save me from limiting the functionality unnecessarily. Thanks.

The good news is that the list of parts doesn't change at all. Everything is still the same, just have to move the handle slightly.


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## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

Concerning the fence height, I'd just suggest you bear in mind how much your board will have to protrude in order to accommodate it. If the fence is too deep, on narrower boards, you may find the board flexes/chatters if it's sticking too far out of your vise. But, unless you're figuring on sawing a lot of veneers or really thin boards, that's probably not a major consideration.

Concerning other stuff… You appear to be unaware of how the internet works. Unlike in real life, you never have to admit defeat online. Even if you are wrong and are aware of it, you do not have to admit it under any circumstances. Google "flat earth" for an example. Conceding that someone else may have been right, or even that they may have had a valid point, can be perceived as admitting defeat. In real life, such concessions make one a logical, evolved, intelligent, and all-around decent human being. Online however, said characteristics are troll chum and one must be ever-vigilant to avoid showing any such weakness lest they be forever shamed. The internet is for the puffing of one's chest, not for the advancement of one's understanding and evolution of their beliefs.

;-)


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> Concerning the fence height, I d just suggest you bear in mind how much your board will have to protrude in order to accommodate it. If the fence is too deep, on narrower boards, you may find the board flexes/chatters if it s sticking too far out of your vise. But, unless you re figuring on sawing a lot of veneers or really thin boards, that s probably not a major consideration.
> 
> Concerning other stuff… You appear to be unaware of how the internet works. Unlike in real life, you never have to admit defeat online. Even if you are wrong and are aware of it, you do not have to admit it under any circumstances. Google "flat earth" for an example. Conceding that someone else may have been right, or even that they may have had a valid point, can be perceived as admitting defeat. In real life, such concessions make one a logical, evolved, intelligent, and all-around decent human being. Online however, said characteristics are troll chum and one must be ever-vigilant to avoid showing any such weakness lest they be forever shamed. The internet is for the puffing of one s chest, not for the advancement of one s understanding and evolution of their beliefs.
> 
> ...


and thats the sad part of people online,makes it hard to trust or build true friendships. but hell i still luv ya kenny ;-))


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Thought it would be nice to let *Lazyman* take some credit where it was due.

His points were in earnest, and I thought that deserved proper attribution.

The Internet at large these days may have the disease you describe, but I like to think of LumberJocks as the anachronistic-Internet where it is perpetually the 1990's ^_^


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Thought it would be nice to let *Lazyman* take some credit where it was due.


I thought it was refreshingly honest.



> The Internet at large these days may have the disease you describe, but I like to think of LumberJocks as the anachronistic-Internet where it is perpetually the 1990 s ^_^
> 
> - DevinT


Things were much more polite in the '80s and early '90s. A big part of that was that ISPs didn't exist. You had to be at a university or major corporation to have access to the Internet, or ARPANET, as I did. If someone went too far over the line, an email to [email protected] generally resulted in the person being spoken to or removed.

Back then, I even included my office phone number in my signature when I posted to USENET newsgroup rec.woodworking. Think I'd do that today?

A couple of major turning points I recall were WebTV and AOL coming aboard. The gates opened and the barbarians poured in. All of the "netiquette" we'd enjoyed flew right out the window.

And yes, Kenny, I was a troll back then too.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

So is this done yet or not? This is the most time anyone has spent on a temporary crutch yet! Lol.


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## HapHazzard (Jan 9, 2016)

> The Internet at large these days may have the disease you describe, but I like to think of LumberJocks as the anachronistic-Internet where it is perpetually the 1990 s ^_^


Exactly. Some of us actually come here to get away from that crap.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

Thanks, Devin. I am glad you are back at it and hope that it works out the way you want it to.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I will be making one for myself and one for another LJ member that has been supportive. 5 more parts are needed to complete the second kit before production run.










Three bags represent one ghost kit with only pieces of paper representing the required pieces (so I know what to buy after I use these two kits), one full kit (which I had to purchase first to assess viability of parts), and the second kit (which represents duplicates of the first kit).

Each kit cost is North of $80 I believe and requires weeks to assemble given dozen plus suppliers operating through multiple market places and some parts are direct from manufacturer.

Making an heirloom hand tool.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

> So is this done yet or not? This is the most time anyone has spent on a temporary crutch yet! Lol.
> 
> - SMP


Only temporary if you:

1. Only use it for creating a kerf for resaw
2. Obviate it by purchasing a different tool

But …

a. I am going to use it for more than just resaw kerfing
b. I don't plan on making it obsolete any time soon

See Galoot Index for additional information. If you're not a galoot, you probably think of this tool as a crutch; but to a galoot, it represents much more.

What's the attractive qualities of embracing Galoot-ness?

Well, it's quiet, peaceful, relaxing, and doesn't wake the baby. What more could you ask for? Builds muscle and character as well. A few calluses on the hands never hurt anyone either.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

> Thought it would be nice to let *Lazyman* take some credit where it was due.
> 
> I thought it was refreshingly honest.


Thank you, Rich.



> The Internet at large these days may have the disease you describe, but I like to think of LumberJocks as the anachronistic-Internet where it is perpetually the 1990 s ^_^
> 
> - DevinT
> 
> ...


I work with a few of the folks that were around in the arpanet days. They have the most amazing stories.


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## HapHazzard (Jan 9, 2016)

Temporary: aren't we all?
Crutch: What's wrong with crutches? They allow the lame to walk. Since when is enabling technology a bad thing?


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## HapHazzard (Jan 9, 2016)

I was around in the ARPAnet days and the BITnet days. I remember using bang paths to send e-mail. I'm pretty sure none of my stories are amazing though.


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## Tony1212 (Aug 26, 2013)

> Thought it would be nice to let *Lazyman* take some credit where it was due.
> 
> - DevinT
> 
> ...


Just went down a small rabbit hole. Did you know there is no adjective form of "integrity"?

Thank you Devin for being honest, trustworthy, ethical, principled, and honorable. In other words, you're a woman full of integrity.

I love it when people give credit where it's due. Especially on the internet.

Edited to add that there *IS* an adjective form of integrity, "integrous". It's just rather uncommon. The spell checker doesn't even like it.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> So is this done yet or not? This is the most time anyone has spent on a temporary crutch yet! Lol.
> 
> - SMP
> 
> ...


You are inferring a lot of things but I am not surprised. What I am getting at is it is a crutch to help you build skill and muscle memory. Thats why these things are rarely seen. Its just like those magnetic dovetail guides for hand saws. I had a veritas one. Used it on maybe 3 projects at which time I had the skill and muscle memory to just take off the training wheels and build my skill more.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> Temporary: aren t we all?
> Crutch: What s wrong with crutches? They allow the lame to walk. Since when is enabling technology a bad thing?
> 
> - HapHazzard


Yep, nothing wrong with using a crutch temporarily. But let me ask you this. If you were getting knee surgery and would need crutches for a couple weeks after, would you spend 6+ months designing some new state of the art titanium crutches with platinum gears and liquid mercury filled counterweights to help you balance? Or would you just take the proven crutches that the hospital provides?


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

why is everyone talking about temporary crutches,am i missing something here ? i think devin is designing and making a tool that will be used for many years to come.from what ive seen her do this will be a high quality tool.some have said she is trying to reinvent the wheel,i think she's just trying to make a better one.cant wait to see this completed.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Ordered a high chair for my son and there was some goof-up and they sent a "Walnut Snack Table"-oddly not instead-of, but in-addition to the high-chair. Never ordered this rickety snack table (which isn't even walnut wood, but walnut stained), according to the packing slip it was supposed to go to a woman named Judy in Long Beach, and the company said I could keep the snack table.

What's the point?

Took the snack table down to the shop because it wasn't level (rocked like a horse). Stood it up on my bench, measured about how much I needed to take off (about 1/8" off two of the four legs), used my marking gauge and a striking knife to mark around all sides of each leg, and then just grabbed a Stanley finishing saw and went to town.

No guides, no fences, just my arm and a guiding thumb.

A fence or guide in this circumstance would be rather cumbersome in my opinion.

Again, what's the point?

Perhaps let me beleaguer my point just a little longer …

I have an eclipse honing guide. When I put my thick Veritas blades in this guide, one side lifts slightly when I clamp the guide onto the blade. This causes the bevel to be slightly skewed. However, it doesn't matter that the bevel is not square to the sides of the plane iron.

Until it does.

So one day you happen across a plane iron where the center slot is not parallel to the sides. So now when you go to use the lateral adjuster, this iron demands an adjustment to the far reaches of the adjuster even with a bevel square to the sides. Add-in a moderate skew and now you are unable to use the lateral adjuster to project the blade properly.

OK, OK, enough soliloquy, what is the actual point being made here?

Nothing matters. Until it does.

Or more specifically, is this a tool to be trotted out for every cut? Not hardly.

Is it a form of training wheels? Perhaps. There are a myriad factors …

Cutting cocobolo takes a while. Your stamina is required to keep the straight cut without a guide. I've done it, 5 minutes of intense concentration (definitely not your average hardwood). I simply don't work soft woods unless I'm (a) horsing around (b) using cedar for its aromatic and anti-bug qualities (and to that effect, if I am horsing around, I really don't care about the cut quality). I think the softest wood I have in my shop is Black Walnut at Janka 1000 (aside from some scraps of WRC-though I am sure someone looking at my shop would point out the scraps of Redwood my neighbor donated; but I haven't touched any of it yet other than to make some spills for lighting campfires).

However, in the non-generic sense, let me go down the list of use-cases and alternatives to provide insight as to longevity to practice:

1. Laying a kerf for a saw to travel

Alternatively just start at the corner, bridge two sides, use a thumb, and start slow to work to the line. Once teeth are submerged, you can start to work faster as it won't easily jump out of the cut. Did this last night trimming the snack table legs.

While that works, you'll tear up the veneer or finish as you bust out the other side, in my experience. So rougher unfinished lumber, sure, finished lumber, not so great an approach-I like laying the kerf down first to prevent chip-out of the finish or veneer.

Harder woods, it's more difficult and in Coco, I've even had it where the saw was wandering inside the cut but was perfectly on-line all the way around. Pre-kerfing may have helped there.

2. Cross-cutting on the perpendicular

Alternatively, use a batten, random piece of wood, or plastic guide (some with magnets in them) to ensure the blade stays perpendicular as it enters the cut.

Works the treat and is easy, ... until you can't find that random piece of wood or plastic (and come to find you used it in a project last week). So now you are scrambling with your square trying to go through your scrap bin to find another acceptable cut-off to brace the saw against.

Pretty sure just pre-kerfing two adjacent sides and entering from the corner will cause it to track pretty perpendicular as long as your kerfs were good.

3. Kerf bending

Alternatively, use a table saw.

This is the case where I really don't see people doing this without power tools. Maybe there is some Japanese man or woman in a mountain village spending months doing this by hand without a jig, all by muscle memory, without "training wheels" as you call them, but I am skeptical.

What is kerf bending but simply making many evenly spaced kerfs to a consistent depth?

Sure, a table saw will get you there with the slide of a stop in your cross-cut sled for your TS, but who in their right mind is going to attempt kerf bending by hand without a TS? Without any electricity?

Me, that's who. Micro-adjustable fence with precision ruler and depth control should allow me to make repeatable kerfs to a consistent depth, evenly spaced.

To what end?

How cool would it be to be able to, for example, make an end table with kerf bent corners and be able to say you made that by hand-Tom Fidgen style.

If that can be achieved, what *else* can be done?

How about sliding dovetails? You slap an angled auxiliary fence to this thing and now you're able to cut the recesses for a sliding dovetail.

I'd like to see someone cut sliding dovetails by hand with using just their thumb as a guide, squinting with one eye open, and just going to town with a saw. That would be quite entertaining I think. If they could pull off any kind of accuracy for any substantial length of dovetail (I don't know, say 24"+) I would be extremely impressed.

To that end … if that was even achievable, what level of expertise are we talking here? I don't think Tom Fidgen would even be up for that challenge. Again, no "training wheels" allowed.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

One other use for that kerfing saw…









Playing "Connect the Dots" 









Until…









There be a separation happening….


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

That's really cool, *bandit*

I presume you are making a box. That's a super cool way to make it (the best way?). I am tucking that technique into my back pocket for when I get around to making some boxes. I often wondered how to match the lid to the carcass-mystery solved!


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

From Paul Sellers Master classes…Keepsake box with rounded sides


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

SIGH of disappointment.

A part did not pass quality control check.

If it were just the failed knurling in one spot, it could be forgiven, but the 1/4-20 threads are off kilter. The thing won't fully thread. The part that does thread shows a wobble in the rotation. Going to have to obtain a replacement.

Sigh.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

But, since I bought it on Amazon, I love how painless the process of obtaining the replacement is.

I click one link, check a box saying defective, describe the defect, and they ship me a new one for free, meanwhile all I have to do is drop the defective one off down the street at Whole Foods in the next 30 days.

Easy peasy. No shipping, no packaging, no hassle. Ever since Amazon bought Whole Foods and allowed you to drop off defective items at the store, it has made dealing with issues like these non-stressful. The only human I ever have to talk to is the person I hand the old item to (often days or weeks after I already have the replacement).

I find it essential to not incurring further delays by also careful selecting only sellers on Amazon that participate in the Prime program because that further reduces delivery estimates and gives you free shipping.


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## HapHazzard (Jan 9, 2016)

I'm glad that worked out for you. My wife had a rather different experience recently. The seller pushed back and jerked her around for a week and she finally had to call the customer service number and get them involved. She got her refund and didn't have to return the merchandise. It would have cost them more to pay for shipping than the merchandise was worth. If you have that number, save it. They've made it very hard to find it on the website.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> But, since I bought it on Amazon, I love how painless the process of obtaining the replacement is.
> 
> I click one link, check a box saying defective, describe the defect, and they ship me a new one for free, meanwhile all I have to do is drop the defective one off down the street at Whole Foods in the next 30 days.
> 
> ...


yeah people put amazon down but the reason they got so big was making the process super easy.any problem ive ever had,and there few,was takin care of no questions asked.there not always the cheapest but ill pay a little more for that service.im lucky ups comes to our yard everyday so i just hand my return to the driver and im done.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Latest parts pass inspection.

Waiting on two more parts to finally complete the second kit (so I can build 2 at the same time).

I saw an uncommon feature on a wooden plow that I will copy before posting updated designs.

I bought some brass tubing to play with to see if I like the idea of making a brass bush for the support arms to glide on.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

RAGE!

Both of the remaining parts according to Amazon were delivered on the 7th, but I only received one.

The missing item?

The saw blade. Arguably the most important part.

Sigh.


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## HapHazzard (Jan 9, 2016)

Do you have the phone number for customer service? Message me if you need it. It's hard to find on the website.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Can you message it to me? I don't have it and didn't even know they had one


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## HapHazzard (Jan 9, 2016)

I had forgotten that you'd mentioned Blackburn Tools at the begginning of this thread, but it seems he'd had some problems and got way behind, but it looks like he's starting to get caught up. See the update on his website if you're still interested. https://www.blackburntools.com


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Thanks! I definitely will. I'm a few hundred $ into my build so far on parts, nearly approaching the cost of the blackburn plane I wanted at the beginning. Funny. Although, I will note that for the cost of one blackburn, I can make 2.

Regardless, I'll have a look at their update and keep them in the running since they are showing "signs of life" again.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

And, the last part has finally arrived. It was actually my own stupidity that resulted in the delay.

1. The stolen item did get refunded (I just used a different card than I usually used and so was going back and forth with Amazon because I didn't see the refund for weeks - was looking at wrong account)

2. The saw plate is available from over a dozen vendors but only 2 of them actually ship from Amazon

3. While trying to order from one of the two vendors that ship via Amazon (instead of another carrier), said first choice kept selling out

4. Had to pay more for peace of mind to get it through the last vendor that uses Amazon for shipping (ended up being almost $10 more)

But it's done - parts acquisition is done. Thank God. Fabrication can start before year-end (unfortunately that danged honey-do list takes precedence in the summer months as the heat picks up).


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Shortly after the saw arrived, I was careless and broke the one I bought over a year ago. Threw it on a shelf and not sure what it hit but broke some teeth. These thin Japanese blades are not as indestructible as I once thought. I think I will ship the plane with a spare blade (for the one I am making for a friend)


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Ordered the replacement saw blade for the one I broke. Great news is that sourcing the replacement blades is quick and easy. So it's just the initial unit that is a bit wonky.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

well sounds like this long journey may be getting close to the end ? cant wait to see it finished !


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Thanks Pottz.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Just bought 5 liner feet of a 9 foot long figured 8/4 Bubinga board.

Hold on, let me wipe the drool from my chin. Oh ho ho, these kerfing planes are going to be solid Bubinga!!!


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> Just bought 5 liner feet of a 9 foot long figured 8/4 Bubinga board.
> 
> Hold on, let me wipe the drool from my chin. Oh ho ho, these kerfing planes are going to be solid Bubinga!!!
> 
> - DevinT


sounds awesome.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)




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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)




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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Wondering how stable that fancy grain will remain…..but, looks good! I'm one of those people that LOVE to show off how the grain looks.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I don't know if the wood was really on sale or not. This tends to happen to me a lot at that store. I will be browsing the woods, eventually we get to talking, and then I show them schematics of what I am making (this tool) and then they trot something out or point me to some buried piece and mention it's on sale. I love it. I think they also love someone that makes hand tools from their wood that lives locally.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> - DevinT


oh hell yeah !!!!!


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> I don't know if the wood was really on sale or not. This tends to happen to me a lot at that store. I will be browsing the woods, eventually we get to talking, and then I show them schematics of what I am making (this tool) and then they trot something out or point me to some buried piece and mention it's on sale. I love it. I think they also love someone that makes hand tools from their wood that lives locally.
> 
> - DevinT
> </blockquo
> ...


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Thanks pottz! I took an unofficial poll online and I think I have to pair it with Gaboon Ebony out of the woods I have on-hand


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I knew the right piece would surface once lumber prices came down (thanks to some new futures markets)


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

I was just curious, is all…..as I usually work with Rosewood for the handle repairs I do on a few planes.

All depends on how well the wood was dried…..and is there any internal stress in a board.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

If the 9 foot board, I discarded 4 feet which had a knot cluster that had a 3 inch fisher running through from side to side. Definitely wanted to stay away from that and I hope there are no surprises inside. Fingers crossed. It looks stunning and solid. Very heavy.

I inspected it thoroughly for any potential defects and did not see any in the portion I kept (5 out of 9 feet).

Good thing though is that the handle is attached at the top and will be cradled at the base for added strength.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Wondering how stable that fancy grain will remain…..but, looks good! I m one of those people that LOVE to show off how the grain looks.
> 
> - bandit571


You are notorious for what you do to grain, that's for sure.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> Wondering how stable that fancy grain will remain…..but, looks good! I m one of those people that LOVE to show off how the grain looks.
> 
> - bandit571
> 
> ...


always amazes me rich !


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Unsure if Rich was talking to bandit


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Unsure if Rich was talking to bandit
> 
> - DevinT


It doesn't matter. That's a beautiful piece of wood. I'm looking forward to seeing what you do with it.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I heard this guy, "pottz," knows a thing or two about exotic hardwoods


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

I guess they were referring to….









that wraps around..









Winds up around in back…


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Quite beautiful!


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

i gotta say the craftsmanship is beyond words !


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

When I fixed handles..way back when..









And, sometimes the entire tote was replaced…









Since it looked better than a tape wrapping….


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Well..it does involve a plane, and it does involve exotic wood. 









Just for good measure..
.









One way to hold a tote while doing the shaping….


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

So thick the little Ryobi needed the Ryoba as backup









































































Note that the burn mark is from the cut made by the dealer (which took the board from 9 feet long to 5)


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Looking good! At least the handsaw doesn't leave burn marks?


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

what burn mark ? dev i know your gonna make it spectacular girl. cant wait till this thing is finished.it's been a long road but gonna be worth the wait im sure !


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

LoL, it would be funny if there was an episode of The Flash where he does woodwork by hand and leaves burn marks with his hand saw


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

pottz: this burn mark










Doesn't effect me in even the slightest since I will be milling the carcass out of the center of the board with the Shaper Origin


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Next step is to plane one side of each of these flat to prepare them for surfacing via router jig. Need to bring them down to 1-1/4 inch thick with flat/parallel faces.

So excited to get the new bronze hand plane knob to add some weight to my sanssoo No 5 type 11 (that's the plane I also decided to do engine turning on).


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> pottz: this burn mark
> 
> 
> 
> ...


ha ha i saw it but no big deal.i just love how you strive for perfection.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> pottz: this burn mark
> 
> - DevinT


They probably haven't cleaned or sharpened that blade in years.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

They warned me before they cut it. I told them not to worry at all.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

So … ummmm … something TOTALLY unexpected just happened on our morning walk … (wait for it)


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Spouse was looking at the wood for the planes and said it is really nice. I mentioned there was 4 more feet I had them remove.

"What? There's more? Go back and get it."

WHAT? A pre-approved purchase? I could hardly contain myself.

"Sure, I'll see if someone hasn't bought it already."

Was my muted response while I hid my excitement.

And, here it is. The other 4 feet of the 9 foot board. Which apparently I am to make a box out of, according to the spouse.





































While I was there, I took the opportunity to double my Ebony stock.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

ahhh, you knew there was a catch for that generosity !


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

The "Knot Farm" would make a very good accent piece for a box….maybe as part of a lid?

Yes, Handsaws can leave burn marks…









Had to slow down a bit..









Otherwise, that newly sharpened ( by me!) K-2 Speedster would nick that vise handle. Saw is a 8ppi….









Without even a line to follow, nor a knife wall…...


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## CommonJoe (May 8, 2021)

Probably should have drawn a line to get it square. Looks to be 1/16 strong out at the top. IDK, Might be good enough for what you're doing though?


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Burn marks from a hand saw? Well, I'll be a monkey's aunt!

Wait a minute …

Could bandit secretly be The Flash and he's not telling us?

That hand cut looks pretty good. I could definitely use more saws in my life (hence this thread).

Hey, speaking of which, did anyone else see on the Lee Valley website under their announcements that SawStop is going to sell a worksite portable saw? Lee Valley won't take pre-order for USA though. Interesting idea for a portable? We'll see I guess. I heard the patent will be expiring soon so they are likely doing this to get more products on the shelf before the competitors hit them against their existing product line.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

The test cut was mainly to see IF the saw wanted to drift left or right…if it did, I could correct that with a pass with a stone…usually means a burr on one side, and needed to be stoned off.

The saw is by Disston. From their 1935 line-up of Keystone Saws….The etch on the K-2 Speedster would have included a race car. Was made until the early 1950s….

Seems to be a decent enough saw..









I have both the K-2, and the K-3 Pacemaker saws….both are 8ppi, 26" skew back saws

As for that perfectly square cut? I rely mainly on the Stanley No. 358 Mitrebox & saw….
This cut was just to test drive the saw after I had just finished sharpening it.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Speaking of etches, did you see James Wright's new video on using a 9V battery and saline solution to etch saw plates? Makes me want to buy a Cri-cut to make vinyl stickers for metal etching.

Kinda makes me want to try making my own plate.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Can't wait to try this guy out on the Bubinga. But I know I can't resist polishing it to a mirror finish first before I use it.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

No 6 from Northwoodsman putting in some work. Thought you might like to see it being put to good use. I like the blade camber you put on it. Thank you. It really does the treat.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)




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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Looks Great!


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Thanks, I am really surprised at how quickly the No 6 made this thing flat. Next up is to use the Jack.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

that bubinga is gonna pop with finish on it.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I've got it milled down to 1-1/2 inches now but expecting company soon so had to clean up and will mill it the rest of the way soon.

I would normally resaw off the excess but, … two things:

1. Re-saving is currently a chore until I finish this tool

2. I need plenty of fresh grounds to fill the pores when finishing

I purchased a coffee grinder to finely mill the large particles that come off the surfacing. The fine dust will be mixed and pushed into the grain to fill the pores.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I got the board thicknessed down to 1-1/4 inches but that was arguably the easiest part.

Now, here's a topic for discussion.

I don't know if it helps - have not done any scientific study - but after I smooth plane to final thickness, I like to leave the board super-glued to the planing surface for a couple days to ensure it doesn't change shape on me after planing. Meaning …

The way that I thickness lumber is to:

1. "Super glue" (two strips of painter's tape with CA glue between) the board down
2. Plane flat one side
3. Flip and super glue the flat side down
4. Use router surfacing jig to make a parallel side
5. Plane smooth

Depending on how much I remove in step 4, sometimes the board can cup by the next day.

However, I have made it part of my routine to just let it sit there for a day or two after step 5. I come back to it, re-check it, admire it, so on and so forth. Then eventually lift it up.

Not sure if the hold down method allows it to relax and resist changing shape on me after and maybe it's all in my head (like many things) or perhaps it helps.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Sounds like a plan. I usually stack mine up, and clamp the stack….and leave it a few days…


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Been sitting like this for a few days while I work on some design issues (the only "issue" I really have is that I need larger pieces of Ebony, or to move things around slightly)


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Not like you haven't seen this before, but you can see that:

1. I realized it would be easier to mill everything out from the flip side since there were more features on one versus the other

2. The small parts posed a slight challenge in determining how to not only mill features on 3 axes but to do it in

2.a. As few setup operations as possible

2.b. While maintaining the greatest part integrity throughout the process

2.c. And only parting out at the end when all the features have been milled

Specifically referring to the bushing, bearing, and adjuster block. The bushing needs features on two axes, as does the bearing, but the adjuster block needs on three.

I am also adding anchors, fixing up color coding for the Shaper Origin, annotating all the required depths and diameters, etc.

Still more to come though. I need to pull up my notes on these M6 threaded inserts and set the depth for that cut.

Then it's on to designing the fence.

Oh, one more thing, you'll notice that I added a pocket above the handle that contours it nicely. This is going to be a trick handle where it looks at first glance like I milled it separately out of 3/4 inch stock and glued it in, but in reality I am going to mill a 1/4 inch off each side of the handle to get a 3/4 inch integrated handle out of the 1-1/4 inch thick tool.

ASIDE: I thought about doing an offset handle. What are folks thoughts? Old hand tools at one time had offset handles. Like plow planes, this could offset since you can't really easily switch hands with it anyway (a left-handed tool would be more appropriate I think than just centering the handle).


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

WAY above my pay scale…..looks good, though.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

over the top dev,but i expect no less !


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I had been thinking about how to incorporate a skate that was "optional" on the auxiliary fence for the purpose of kerf bending (either clamp a call to the middle of the board to ensure perpendicular cross cut or start at the end of the board with the fence) and then after the first cut just slot the skate into the previous cut to make repeated cuts precisely spaced.

I went to my shop and made a token cut with the Ryoba to see what could pass for a skate.

I found some 24×10 sheets of steel shimstock precision ground to 1/64" in thickness that actually works extremely well as a skate. So well, in-fact, that I am very excited.

Of course the skate is thin so don't want it always exposed, so I came up with the idea of a piece of wood that can be bolted to the auxiliary fence to shroud the exposed portion of the skate turning it into a surface plate for the regular auxiliary fence.

Best part is, no fiddly bits.

I guess you may just have to see it once finished.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Super excited that this project will now incorporate some steel work.

EDIT: I don't consider cutting steel bolts with a hacksaw to be steel work. But, using cold chisels, peening edges, running end mill toolpaths, now that's what I consider steel work.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Wow, what a ride! It took me a good (checks date on above posts) full week to come up with the fence. I have known since the beginning of this project that I did not want to make a simple fence comprised of one or two flat boards with a simple bull nose profile. Nay, I want to make a fence like 19th century plow/plough planes or moving fillister planes. You know the ones I am talking about, the ones that look like a cornice or crown molding.

Of course, there has to be a reason-one that I would not know until digesting Whelan in his entirety.

When you cradle the fence on a wooden plow plane, there is but one goal: ride along the face to make a perpendicular cut. The fence has two functions to support this goal: a right angle and something to hold on to. Then, you have to consider how those functions are utilized based on the fence design.

Comparing a flat fence (see Tom Fidgen) to a molded fence (see D.L. Barrett & Sons) the molded fence offers two things the flat fence does not for feeling plumb while you work.

As Whelan states, after the molding is cut into the fence, it is rotated 90 degrees in the vice and the end grain is cut with the same profile. This affords the user the ability to hang over the leading arm and use sideways pressure with a finger. See the young man in the film on this page

This allows one to work in situations where you cannot easily access the underside of the fence without, say, knocking your knuckles into the vise.

But what of the underside of the molded vs flat fence? I am glad you asked.

We want to feel plumb when we are using a hand tool saddled over an edge. The design of the fence should aid in feeling plumb. But moreover, it should allow you to stay plumb and that means a few things:

1. Being able to get your fingers behind the fence because the molded fence transitions to more vertical than horizontal over its length means-like when edge jointing a long board with a hand plane-you can keep pressure where it is needed (in the example of edge jointing a board, you would put a thumb over the toe and avoid using the knob, helping alleviate levered pressure [should you use the knob] and keeping pressure instead directly above the working edge.

2. With a flat fence, it is the crook of your hand doing all the work to keep the face plumb. And the crook of your hand is rather far from your fingers. And gripping a flat board for hours will lead to pain in your hands. It is much easier to grip something that is not perfectly flat. The molded fence affords some real estate to relax. The molded fence affords you the choice to push with the crook of your hand (on the bull-nose edge of the fence projecting away from the face of the fence) *or* you can push with your fingers-*or* if the profile (as is the case in my design) has a cove for your fingers, you could actually do a combination where you grip the cove to push the bullnose into the crook of your hand which is then used to stabilize the face. You have multiple options.

Of course, you *could* completely ignore the fence altogether and just say the hell with it, ... I don't need to feel plumb, I din't need to hold the fence, and I certainly don't need to use it like a plow plane. That's an option. I put an even more substantial horn on the front of my plane if that's the way you like to work.

I believe by designing a molded fence, I will afford more capabilities to the way it is used.

Over fence grip? Yes
Under fence? Yes
Beak grip? Yes
Pressure cove? Yes
Overboard? I don't know. You look at D.L. Barrett & Sons and they clearly take pride in their molded fences. 19th century wooden plow plane makers took pride. Grain orientations were accounted for, feel in the hand was important, and the tool was made for endurance.

So, with that, I share with you …

Ovolo Bevel Scotia Beak Scotia Quirk Bevel Bevel Beak with brass rod inlay










I think it's going to be a hit for comfort and functionality. Of course, how am I going to pull it off? Shaper Origin, of course, ...










What will it look like on the plane? Here is the profile view of the past week's work on designing the fence from the parts I have.

ASIDE: The socket cap screws I previously purchased proved to be too heady for the job ultimately I went to OSH and bought new button head socket cap screws. Also, while at OSH I picked up some cheap Alan wrenches and got the idea of just throwing a magnet into the thing and creating a recess to hold the dang thing so I always have it near the tool. The Alan key would be for removing the auxiliary fence(s)-yes, that's right, it has not one auxiliary fence, but *TWO*-they serve different purposes. I haven't revealed that part of the design yet. I also haven't revealed the secret as to how I am going to make an auxiliary fence that is only 3/8" thick and yet 3" wide and 12" long while still staying flat without warp (regardless of how it is sealed).










And here is a fresh image of the side of the unit (again, you can see I added to it-also the arms came down, because I only have about 2" x 3/4" x 12" of Ebony that I wanted to use for the main fence, so things got compressed a little.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

holy moley dev you got me spinning girl. im not even gonna try and understand what your exactly doing but im sure it's gonna be impressive.cant wait for this bird to land !


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I'm not too certain about sticking split washers under the thumb screws positioned over the 1/2" brass arms.

My thinking in putting them there is that I want some positive protection against vibration from working the screw loose (which is not really holding the fence in place per-se, but rather is just taking out any slop from the micro-adjust screw that moves the fence in and out). However, in looking at 19th century and similar wooden plow planes, they don't use knurled thumb screws, they use kind of a "paddle" top screw (like a wing screw but not wings per-se).

I won't know until I sink a threaded insert into some wood and see if I can turn the threaded screw against the split washer. My suspicion is that I am worried about nothing and that the … /me checks … 3/4" diameter knurled head on the thumb screw will provide enough torque to cinch even partially down on the split washer-affording me what I want without having to swap out the thumb screw for a paddle/wing screw.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

go with your thoughts and if it's not right you modify. but that will need to be tested with use.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Oh, I had a real shock last weekend.

When I went to OSH to get those button head socket cap screws, I found some that fit the bill that were 88 cents a piece. However, I wasn't lovin' on the black coating which was rough to the touch. I'm used to things being shiny.

So, I sauntered over to the shiny section, and …

What on EARTH!? The same exact screw was almost $6 *PER-SCREW* for shiny chrome (assuming plated) screw versus 88 cents per-screw for the black ones.

Grrrrrrrrrr, well, screw 'em (pun intended), when I got back from the store (with the cheap screws), I just modified the design slightly for blind taps so I don't have to look at the screw heads (only if I turn the thing over will I see them).

However, I feel … cheap. Like, I got the best of the best parts for everything else on this thing (including the wood; all exotics), but, ... I then go and cheap out on the screws. I just couldn't justify paying almost $80 for 12 screws. Grrrr.

Wondering if OSH is just the worst possible place to buy screws and I should just check eBay or McMaster or … not sure why OSH is trying to charge nearly $6 per screw for chrome button had socket cap in 1/4"-20 by 5/8


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Maybe I was in the wrong section. I don't need chrome … SS will do. See? on eBay I can find 50 pieces for $12

Sheesh, I should have just gone to eBay to start with. Friggin OSH …


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

6$ for a screw ? were they 24k gold plated for gods sake. yeah id of passed myself ! i could have made a comment with this but it would not have been "family friendly" dev -lol.


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## DavePolaschek (Oct 21, 2016)

I buy most of my screws from Fastenere nowadays.

When I had a Fastenal store just a few minutes away, I bought from them.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Thanks *Dave*, the prices look very agreeable.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Been working out more and more details. Annotating every little detail, moving on to different angles, etc.

Now, ... those that have been following this forum thread for a while will of course say (and have said) that this process is entirely too long.

I personally have to agree. Here's a first-hand perspective:

1. Using Inkscape to generate files for Shaper Origin is really really slow if the project is complicated (as this one is -- where thousandths of an inch matter in dozens of places and grain direction is paramount in select parts).

2. Using Inkscape means that I am working in 2D and when I finish with one side, I then have to re-do everything at a different angle. I see other creators using 3D programs that if I could find a faster workflow (more of a question for the Shaper Hub than here -- answers not expected, but if there are any Shaper Origin users here that work in 3D I am interested).

I am not complaining at all. I just think perhaps working in 3D might be faster.

With that being said, here's the eye candy showing my latest work. I still have a few more angles to produce, so we're not done yet -- if I do one new angle every 2 weeks, we could see this thing before year end.


















ASIDE: Yes, I modeled my own hand (or at least the crook and thumb) so I could make sure I leave room for my thumb and can potentially strategically place items for hooking my thumb around


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Today’s word is … Osmo. I have to admit what this one fellow achieved with Walnut and Osmo is amazing. I might spend the $60 to try it.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Mental tally ...

• 10 router bits to be used
• 4 pieces of wood (body, fence, and 2 aux fences -- one flat, one molded)
• 3 pocketing operations
• 46 cuts and counting
• 11 setups and counting


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

DevinT said:


> Mental tally ...
> 
> • 10 router bits to be used
> • 4 pieces of wood (body, fence, and 2 aux fences -- one flat, one molded)
> ...


you ever do anything easy ?


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Here's where I come from, so that folks coming after me can be inspired to do better (because talking to today's yout's, it is far from clear that they understand what I am about to say, through no fault of their own).

Time will out-last all of us. You have free will while you are alive and what you do during that time will dictate what happens afterward. You can leave next-to-nothing physical and still be impactful beyond your life through teachings and inspirations just as it is possible to be recalcitrant to the point of leaving nothing but physical belongings -- and we all leave at least one physical belonging behind (your body).

I try not to think too much about what it is that I will leave behind as long as it is better than what I would have left behind yesterday.

A fair percentage of us on this forum (perhaps safe but the outlier) have utilized a previously owned tool. Where did that tool come from? Who left it behind? What can forensics tell us about their life?

Let me cut to the chase ...

Next time you use that old tool and you have some feels about its form and function, I implore you to think about it more of a reverence for time. I believe it's all about time.

The length of time the tool was used before it came to you.
If it was owned by a loved one, the time that was spent with that loved one.
If it was a hard to acquire tool or hard to restore, the amount of time in doing so.

So what on Earth is it that I am even doing here (with this plane; this unGodly complicated plane ... when I could just buy a BadAxe or BlackBurn)?

I am gifting time.

To answer your question, my dear friend, the complexity is the gift through the time.

I gather most people would add "and effort" to that, but I don't put a value on effort, I put a value on time. This will sound counter-productive until I explain that it actually works out in the end despite devaluing effort.

Effort can sometimes be akin to "work" which in the collegiate sense to me has meant Force / Distance -- a man expending all his energy to move a block he does not move may be very tired but he has done less work than the man that has used negligible energy to move a tiny object a fraction of an inch. It's not my definition of work, it's the physics definition of work -- which unfortunately is rather results oriented (physics is all about effects and analyzing inputs to systems to derive cause and effect formulae).

I have this idea that if I make something simple, time will not be kind to the effort.

If I make something thoughtful with disregard to the effort, then time will be kind.

So, ... did I answer?

I make some simple things. But I always make sure what I make is thoughtful and incorporates a component of time -- time I put into it as well as time you will enjoy it.

How does the "yout's" play into this?

Well, in mentoring the kids of friends and neighbors, I've become woefully disappointed in the collective inability to focus long enough to understand that I want your best and sometimes to be at your best you have to be willing to disappear and refine yourself and come back. The mentees I have at my disposal, none of them read books (I have been asked "how do you learn from books"), half cannot read cursive (so technical drawings from the 1800's on hand planes require help), and if what I am trying to explain takes longer than a minute or two, then they glaze over.

I'm scared, because everything seems to need to have an immediate answer, be immediately actionable, and if the process takes too long then the results are not worth it.

What happened to actually slowing down and thinking and taking time with something. Personally I _love_ it when I perform a little work on something, walk away, think of something that had not occurred to me before, and then get the chance to incorporate that before I even start the work.

So far, more than 3 dozen times on developing this project, I have been glad that I took the time to model a part and digitally fit it together before attempting to cut the piece, because so many times what I think of is utter garbage and needs to be filed into the "won't work" bucket. That's part of the fun for me though -- are there more than one ways to make this thing? Sure -- but I can tell you about 100 different ways that it absolutely won't work if you attempt X, Y, or Z.

It's like Thomas Edison said about his invention of the light-bulb. In no certain words, that he failed 100 times before succeeding. Me? I prefer not to fail, and the best way I know to do that is to gleefully seek out fault in a design so that I can count it as improbable, unfeasible, or down-right crazy, so I can not think about it again.

The problem here with this tool is actually that ... I unfortunately keep finding ways forward that haven't killed the tool yet. Believe me, I keep looking for ways to tell me that there is a reason that nobody has done this yet. Pity me however, that sadly I seem destined to succeed on this one.

That's really great news to all the people I want to be gifting my time to. After I die, I want them to be able to look at it, use it, experience it, and for years after my departure, it will slowly and steadily reveal its nuances that prove that I gave this thing a metric crapton (I'm told this is an actual unit) of thought.

And THAT, ... my friend ... 

Is how I give.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

The silence is deafening. Maybe it has absolutely nothing to do with one's age and I was just raised differently. I'd rather not give anything than give something half-assed is how I feel.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

My spouse points out though that we are a product of the 80's where parents told you to go outside and play then locked the door and told you not to come back until the street lights come on. Unless you were bleeding from the ears or had to use the bathroom, you weren't allowed back inside.

Our parental units were often checked-out or working so hard that they didn't have time for us. However, when they did have time for us, you never knew if you were going to finally "get it" for all the bad things you had done in the meantime.

We're not "Obsessive Compulsive" though it's entirely arguable that we are "disordered" ...

We were simply raised to presume that nobody has time for you and that when they do, you better have been giving it your all every second of the day because you never know when someone is going to "check your work"


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

First draft of the fence profile. Took me a long while to get something that I liked the aesthetic of. Kind of reminds me of chess for some reason.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Just look at all that real estate for your left hand. Unlike traditional (as if that word applied here) 3 arm plow planes (which are far from traditional; on the contrary are quite rare, only seeing a few makers such as Chapin-Rust, Isaac White, and Kimberley) I am determined to not clutter up the fence board with unnecessary attachments so that I can fit my entire palm and thumb under the adjustment rod. The closer I get to the final ergonomics, the more excruciating it is to be patient and work out every last detail.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Maybe a touch more to the rear of the fence? Mainly looking at a "balance" And it might protect a knuckle, or two..DAMHIKT....

When I am working with the Stanley 45....I do not use the front knob....I tend to wrap my left thumb in, and around the front rod's connect to the fence...


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Hmmm, interesting.

So you're saying you'd like the rear of the fences to be aligned?

Should I be concerned about having a threaded insert only ~1/4" away from an edge? The reason they are not aligned is to give meat for the threaded insert to be stable in.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

You COULD notch around the M 6 Insert....

On the No. 45, the metal part of the fence does not go the full length of the wooden fence.....there is about~ 1" or so at each end that is just the wooden part of the fence

Place I was concerned about, was when you'd reach the end of a board, would there be any "drop-off"...

I have nicked up a pinky now and then, by pulling too far back...that the front end of a plane drops down ( going way too fast?) and the little finger slams down on a sharp corner or the board...ow...

I realize your plane work on the pull stroke....however, that starting pull may not always land ON the board's edge....but a finger might...


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Not sure what you mean by "notch around the M6 insert" (clarification needed)

I am anticipating that because of angled presentation of the blade to the cutting surface, I will have to start at the far end and work my way back (not unlike using some traditional grooving planes).

I want to avoid a design flaw right out the gate, so you got me thinking about that area of the plane, and so I pulled up my inspirations (3 arm plows) and you are spot on. I think I need to extend the rear of the fence in this manner:

































Is that what you were referring to?

Here's some images that show wooden plow fence demarcation that we can draw from:


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

@bandit571 I am thinking a 3" extension, what do you think?


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I think I understand why you thought I could "notch" around the M6 insert. That's on the opposite side from the fence, the concern was within the wood. Perhaps this is a better illustration.

I took your advice and I reworked the fence design taking it from 2 x 7 up to 2 x 9. Now the 1/2" brass rod arm is only 1/8" away from the M6 threaded insert (internally within the plane -- note however that they project out of different sides of the plane).

There is now a full 6.5" of unobstructed surface under the fence between the two posts (atop the arms) that hold the auxiliary fence (the part of the fence that goes under the sole of the plane).

The auxiliary fence has grown from a scant 1.5 x 12 inches to a monstrous 1.5 x 17.5 inches long (the depth has not changed at ~3 inches).

This thing is a beast.

Oh, and we're absolutely still on schedule to name this thing "Moby Nick"


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## DavePolaschek (Oct 21, 2016)

DevinT said:


> The silence is deafening. Maybe it has absolutely nothing to do with one's age and I was just raised differently. I'd rather not give anything than give something half-assed is how I feel.


Took me until today to even find this. Without “pulse” I’m going to miss a lot, I suspect.

Anyway, I half-ass things all the time, but that’s stuff that I’m going to be using, and my general rule is that I’ll make a really quick and sloppy version first, then when it goes wrong, I’ll make a second version incorporating what I learned from using the first, and then if that breaks, the third one will be pretty damned good.

But sometimes I find that I don’t ever use the quick and sloppy first attempt a second time, because I figure out a better process where I don’t need it. Then that first version didn’t waste time I could’ve spent on something else. But I have way more ideas for stuff to build than I ever get around to building.

But hell, I’ve got a box I’m building that has over a week just in the (painted) finish. That’s going to someone else, and I want it to look spiffy. Plus I’m learning new techniques in finishing all the way. Different goals…


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

DavePolaschek said:


> Took me until today to even find this. Without “pulse” I’m going to miss a lot, I suspect.
> 
> Anyway, I half-ass things all the time, but that’s stuff that I’m going to be using, and my general rule is that I’ll make a really quick and sloppy version first, then when it goes wrong, I’ll make a second version incorporating what I learned from using the first, and then if that breaks, the third one will be pretty damned good.
> 
> ...


dave just use alerts.sorta what the pulse was.


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## DavePolaschek (Oct 21, 2016)

pottz said:


> dave just use alerts.sorta what the pulse was.


Alerts aren’t remotely like pulse. You can’t set an alert for something you haven’t found yet. Like this thread, until I found it today.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

DavePolaschek said:


> Alerts aren’t remotely like pulse. You can’t set an alert for something you haven’t found yet. Like this thread, until I found it today.


true but ya just gotta "browse" the forum more ! once you find it though alerts will notify you.im fine with it. what i dont like is ive lost all my favorite projects ! at least as far as i know ?


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I set default filter on “What’s New” page and it feels like Pulse to me. Occasionally I flip the “unread” and “followed” checkboxes to explore new content then go back to watching followed content as shown below


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## PCDub (Sep 24, 2017)

DevinT said:


> The silence is deafening. Maybe it has absolutely nothing to do with one's age and I was just raised differently. I'd rather not give anything than give something half-assed is how I feel.





DevinT said:


> Here's where I come from, so that folks coming after me can be inspired to do better (because talking to today's yout's, it is far from clear that they understand what I am about to say, through no fault of their own).
> 
> Time will out-last all of us. You have free will while you are alive and what you do during that time will dictate what happens afterward. You can leave next-to-nothing physical and still be impactful beyond your life through teachings and inspirations just as it is possible to be recalcitrant to the point of leaving nothing but physical belongings -- and we all leave at least one physical belonging behind (your body).
> 
> ...


I may not have yet fully digested all that you wrote, but I agree with the issue of the value of spending time on what we do. People often ask me why don't I "just throw that away and buy a new one"? Because it *satisfies *me to figure out what is wrong and determine whether I can fix it. My house is filled with "fixes" that give me endless satisfaction (whether or not anyone in the future will even notice). So I completely understand your focus on thinking through everything in order to make it work right, whether or not the effort is "worth it," especially for something that people will keep and use in the future. [That said, I'm more like Dave P in that I'll mock something up to see if it works, then modify it to get it right. ]


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

DavePolaschek said:


> Took me until today to even find this. Without “pulse” I’m going to miss a lot, I suspect.
> 
> Anyway, I half-ass things all the time, but that’s stuff that I’m going to be using, and my general rule is that I’ll make a really quick and sloppy version first, then when it goes wrong, I’ll make a second version incorporating what I learned from using the first, and then if that breaks, the third one will be pretty damned good.
> 
> ...


When the option to half-ass something presents itself AND I can prevent anyone from knowing it ever existed, I gleefully proceed in that manner -- and so I absolutely respect that approach. However, have you ever found that something was so complicated that your mind simply could not comprehend its workings?

This is kind of going to sound dumb, but ... moldings. I simply could not comprehend anything about them (6 months ago). I bought "The Wooden Plane: It's History, Form, and Function" by John M. Whelan in hardback off eBay and read it cover to cover. Then I felt like I could at least look at a molding and understand what I was looking at. Before that, I would look at a wooden plane with a molded fence and sure it looked pretty, and I could tell that some moldings looked different than others, but until I read that book I really couldn't do what I suspected I needed to do ... which was to create a molded fence.

Perhaps it was because I perceive that molded fences have gone the way of the Do-Do bird. I don't think there are any plane makers that I am aware of that make a plane produced in the past 10 years that has a molded fence.

So, there I was in a sliding door moment, ... do as other makers and make a boring fence, a boring plane, a board with two threaded inserts and a rough shape and call it a day?

Nay, ... let's make something pretty. And down the rabbit hole I went. Moldings on planes? Yes please. I am informed, I know the styles (Victorian, Edwardian, Elizabethan), the technical naming system and all its components (I can look at a molding and describe its components in a systemic form to describe it to myself and others), and I know the tools that were/are used on 3 continents over the past 150+ years in creating them.

You want to talk about half-assing something, ... I didn't really see a way to possibly half-ass a molding when initially I didn't even understand what I was looking at. I could have thrown all the money in the World at the problem and got absolutely nowhere, safe for maybe just grabbing some pre-made crown molding and trying to use it as a fence (not solving the problem of truly understanding molded fences).

I feel so empowered now that I want to try things like Doric structures, fluted columns, and more. I've been destroyed in the sense that now I can't even look at furniture or architecture without identifying the individual components AND why those components were chosen. For me, it wasn't even enough to know that for example a slipped bead or torus or Ovolo is named as such, or where "Ogee" is derived from, but rather it was about learning _when_ to use, for example, a lying Ogee, an Ovolo, a beak, a snipe's/crow's bill, quirk, fillet, and so-on.

For example. In creating the fence, this is what I did (using the knowledge from the ages):

1. Find wood
2. Determine how wood will be held
3. Draw features that will make it comfortable
4. Determine how skinny the skinny end will be and how fat the fat end will be
5. Separate your router bits or cutting irons into groups based on whether the cut will cause the wood to get thinner or thicker (HINT: Some bits/irons can do both depending on which side of the bit/iron you present to the wood)
6. Identify any fillets first (the flat spots) as landmarks
7. Bridge the fillets in a way that minimizes re-work (HINT: For example, a bull nose profile without a bull nose bit/iron will require sanding to remove the potential tool mark left where the two ovolos meet ... but, if you instead slip one or both Ovolo you instead form a Gothic astragal which needs no cleanup after)

ASIDE: Quirks are often signs of similar molding technique as the last hint. Easier to let the bit/iron (for example, a point-cutting round-over bit) generate a quirk so that the fillet stops short of generating a corner that is hard to sand into.

When I look at a molding now, I have no less respect for what goes into them -- quite the opposite, I respect them more.

Will anyone look at my plane and see what I see when I look at the below molding? Heh, probably not -- safe for maybe Matt Estlea who has gone to furniture school (wish we had such things here in this country).

...

Don't get me wrong @DavePolaschek -- would loved to half-assed this one to get a working tool faster, but ... I want a molded fence and by golly, I'm going to have one.

As an aside, ... like some old planes had "boxing" ... I strategically am placing two 1/8" diameter brass rod into the molded fence so that when you're holding it, you feel the brass in the finger groove, and when you set it down, it sets on brass (so you can toss the thing down hard-ish).

I even went so far as to calculate the center of gravity when the plane is sitting on the molding.

So I give it back to you ...

I would like to ask ...

If something cannot be wholly contained in one's brain and is fleeting at best, does that mean that reading a book and using a computer to help arrive at the complicated solution is "over kill?"

I'm not taking offense to any one approach or not, but I honestly didn't see any way forward that was simple and reading a book and using CAD for me was required to model the thing because I couldn't keep it straight in my head and looking at pictures of wooden planes with molded fences just made things worse until I studied up.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)




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## DavePolaschek (Oct 21, 2016)

DevinT said:


> Perhaps it was because I perceive that molded fences have gone the way of the Do-Do bird. I don't think there are any plane makers that I am aware of that make a plane produced in the past 10 years that has a molded fence.


Hollows and rounds, Devin. Matt Bickford makes them and has a book on how to use individual hollows and rounds (and a rabbet plane to get started) to make any profile moulding you’d like. I took a fun class with him at Lost Art Press almost three years ago (the October before Covid), and we made our own picture frame stock from scratch. Much fun!

Heres the finished frame around a print by Molly Brown.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I could be wrong, @DavePolaschek but that looks like a double framing with the inner comprised of a Back Ovolo with Fillet that lays in a shoulder on the back of the outer frame comprised of a large bevel with a small fillet at either end.

That is gorgeous and absolutely love the fact that you made it yourself.

I recently paid top dollar for a double framing because I just loved how the two frames — designed separately — looked together.

The inner frame is a Back Ogee Cove and the outer frame is a Dropped Fillet Lying Ogee (I am sure there is more than one way to name it though; just using Whelan’s method of thick-to-thin which may be left to right or in some cases right to left; I wasn’t there when it was made but I presume it was made that way)


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## DavePolaschek (Oct 21, 2016)

DevinT said:


> I could be wrong, @DavePolaschek but that looks like a double framing with the inner comprised of a Back Ovolo with Fillet that lays in a shoulder on the back of the outer frame comprised of a large bevel with a small fillet at either end.


It’s a single piece of wood. Basically flipped the board end-for end in the sticking board to do profiles on both edges.

With hollows and rounds and some imagination (which you don’t lack), you can make any profile you can imagine. Matt’s book is a hard read for some, but I suspect you’ll get it fairly rapidly.

At the moment, I mostly make simple profiles with my hollows and rounds. But I’ve got a half-set (evens) and am slowly getting them all tuned up so they cut well. Helps that I know a framer who sometimes wants custom stock, so if I make something cool and don’t feel like using it, I can probably sell it. But I’ve pondered setting up a custom framing shop, too. Got the miter trimmer and everything.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

@DavePolaschek !!!! So I checked out Bickford’s planes and Oh me, Oh my! I’m getting a little hot and bothered over this one plane …

The man has a plane that produces an astragal tangentially on a cove (EDIT: Scotia) … can we just take a moment to appreciate this?


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## DavePolaschek (Oct 21, 2016)

Sorry, but that plane doesn’t do much for me. But I’m pretty sure I could (with enough time) make that profile using hollows and rounds. And that’s pretty cool, to my mind.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Well yeah, but the question you have to ask yourself is … are your hollows and rounds sprung?

I think for that molding you might be able to get away with having an unsprung plane (spring angle zero degrees, in other words the cutter is in line with the sole) but it always looks extra fancy to me when the detail was not just planted perpendicular to the board.


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## DavePolaschek (Oct 21, 2016)

DevinT said:


> Well yeah, but the question you have to ask yourself is … are your hollows and rounds sprung?


Umm… you need to unask the question. Hollows and rounds can be used at any angle you desire. They each make up 60 degrees of a circle, but I routinely cut profiles that are 90 degrees of a circle by leaning the plane over as I’m working.


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## DavePolaschek (Oct 21, 2016)

Put another way, I’ve used hollows and rounds sprung at 90 from vertical when that’s what I needed. I think the largest arc I’ve cut (by degrees) was something like 190 degrees (using a plane that cuts 60 degrees of an arc in one pass).


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Well very true my friend, very true. You don’t have to ask the question but I asked it because of one of comfort. Surely you can tip the plane in most circumstances (as stated for the molding that the pictured Bickford would cut) but that is a function of proximity to the neighboring astragal in this case.

I only intended to say that there may be some instances where a molding profile can only be cut in a complex molder or sprung planes wherein if the plane has no spring angle cannot exactly duplicate the profile down to the quirks.

I tend to model the profile from top-down with zero spring but I also keep in mind that this creates some limits.

which may beg the question: what is the value of a quirk? I have asked myself this and I have started using quirks to hide things like tool marks that might exist between two passes. No need to sand the tool marks away if there is a well placed quirk resulting from descending a point-cutting round-over-bit a tad too deep, for example. Or, no need to sand in a corner if you strategically place a bevel quirk before you present the hollow. Little genius aha moments that save time and work later. Only have a 1” spoilboard surfacing bit but you need to level 1.75” of surface? Make two passes and plunge a 60-degree V-groove a tiny way into the middle to hide the tool mark between the two passes.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

ASIDE: Sometimes I feel like an archaeologist of woodwork -- and I love every bit of it. I think we have lost a sense of open-air style to furniture and tools influenced by the past that makes me yearn to use well designed hand tools. The well placed fillet that makes it look like there is e veneer top but it's a solid piece. The doric structure influenced by Roman architecture that puts a torus foot on a box to make it look like two pieces when it is in fact one. Taking something that is a single piece of wood that is strong and embellishing features onto its face to make it look like it was built from weaker components that could not possibly have been assembled into the final form. It's an utter art-form and the way light dances on these surfaces casting shadows and illuminating different grains is somewhat addicting. Perhaps the question should not be "can I make a functional tool" but "can I make a beautiful tool that functions well?" I asked myself the latter and I came up empty with what the word "beautiful" meant until I educated myself on historical architecture. Oh come on ... you know we all drool over those gothic arches on the H. O. Studley tool chest -- don't deny it.


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## DavePolaschek (Oct 21, 2016)

DevinT said:


> which may beg the question: what is the value of a quirk?


I suggest you read Matt’s book, as there are multiple uses for quirks. One is, as you say, hiding tool marks, but looked at from his POV, generally a quirk is there to provide a shadow in the finished profile. But using a quirk plane, you can often make the beginnings of another shape where you wouldn’t otherwise be able to “reach” without the quirk (or a gouge or something). It expands your abilities.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

DavePolaschek said:


> I suggest you read Matt’s book, as there are multiple uses for quirks. One is, as you say, hiding tool marks, but looked at from his POV, generally a quirk is there to provide a shadow in the finished profile. But using a quirk plane, you can often make the beginnings of another shape where you wouldn’t otherwise be able to “reach” without the quirk (or a gouge or something). It expands your abilities.


👆🤯

OK, DAMHIKT. I'm going to go over my book quota this month. I've already got "Quiet Woodworking: In an Unquiet World" in my Amazon cart, another John M. Whelan book in my eBay cart (this one on making wooden planes, not just the history, form, and function thereof), and ... now this book 😀


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Gee, after reading the colophon from Lost Art Press, this book immediately jumped to the top of the list. If I can only have one book this month (I can sometimes squeak by two), this is it (Mouldings In Practice).

Thank you @DavePolaschek -- you know ... they say that "the most influential thing you can do in a person's life is to recommend a book." Well, that's what they used to say when I was a kid.


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## DavePolaschek (Oct 21, 2016)

DevinT said:


> Thank you @DavePolaschek -- you know ... they say that "the most influential thing you can do in a person's life is to recommend a book." Well, that's what they used to say when I was a kid.


You’re welcome. I suspect you’re a fair whack younger than me, and yes, I’ve heard that.

Trying to share the knowledge. Just like the kids sharing their knowledge of Tomorrow-morrow Land with Captain Walker.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Yeah, I was too young to watch that when it came out (but I can attest that I was absolutely alive).


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## DavePolaschek (Oct 21, 2016)

Oh, and if you’re buying the book and in a hurry, Lost Art Press will probably ship fastest. Ordering direct from Matt may take an extra day or two, but he’ll (I think) get a slightly larger percentage.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Trying to get back on topic here ... I absolutely will do some iterative testing of the design.

What perhaps needs to be explained though is that this entire project pushes the Shaper Origin to the max of its abilities -- "how on Earth" you may ask?

Well, let me share what I have learned without ever making a single cut on this project:

1. The size of the thing is such that using the Shaper Workstation is going to be "just barely fits." If it were even just a tiny bit bigger, it would require a more complicated setup than just slapping some dimensioned lumber into the Shaper Workstation (and remember, I'm trying to keep this simple to reproduce)

2. For strength, I really can't make the thing any thinner than 1-1/4" and the longest router bit you can get for the 1/4" collet Shaper Origin is 1-1/2" long cutting height. Cutting this thing will absolutely require some finishing passes where the entirety of 1-1/4" thickness of material is engaged with the cutter (read: finishing passes -- wherein if you are new to Shaper Origin, there is no ramping-in or slowing-down as you approach a curve, that's controlled by you else auto-mode risks putting undue stress in a corner -- and being fully engaged in a corner at 1-1/4" depth can get a little spicy if you don't slow down).

3. The ... AWW CRAP!

(puts head in hands; runs out to the garage to measure something)

PHEW!!!!! I recently at the behest of @bandit571 (which was a good thing) lengthened the auxiliary fence up to 17.5" long (the part that has the molding) and I was just concerned that I made it too long to fit in the Shaper Workstation. I did not -- we're all good. The decision to make it 17.5" and not 18" actually saved me. PHEW!

(wipes sweat from brow)

Yeah, this thing is designed to be made with Shaper Origin on a Shaper Workstation with minimal steps so that I can churn them out to the tune of 3 a month. I'm not expecting to have to make a lot of these -- one for me, one for @pottz, one for the children and anyone else in our family that wants one. They ain't cheap to make by the way. I'd have to go back through my receipts to see how much each one cost me. I'd estimate it's about $115 each in parts including the cost of expensive exotic wood (Bubinga and Gaboon Ebony).


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

_cough_ I should probably not say this, but I'm going to say it anyway ...

I can't stop reading "M.S. Bickford" as "Ms. Bickford" (I'll take my lumps now)


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Sharing an idea that I have that I am on the fence about (no pun intended).

One optional part for my plane is a 3/8" thick, 17.5" long, 3" wide board (flat fence with skate).

I was concerned about cupping and I had a thought ...

Board can't cup according to the grain if I replace a large portion of the grain with plexiglass.

Am I the first person to think of this? In other words ... need a board to stay flat and straight? Cut it to dimension, cut out the center, make a shoulder 1/4" deep, slam some 1/4" thick acrylic into the pocket.


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## DavePolaschek (Oct 21, 2016)

DevinT said:


> Board can't cup according to the grain if I replace a large portion of the grain with plexiglass.
> 
> Am I the first person to think of this?


This is what stabilizing with Cactus Juice is, though in that case you don’t remove anything but the air from the wood before replacing it with acrylic resin. A vacuum chamber makes removing the air from the wood relatively easy.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

DavePolaschek said:


> This is what stabilizing with Cactus Juice is, though in that case you don’t remove anything but the air from the wood before replacing it with acrylic resin. A vacuum chamber makes removing the air from the wood relatively easy.


Ahhhhhhh ... that makes absolute perfect sense.

Hmmm, so my idea to Shaper Origin out a shape in acrylic and inlay it is really a poor-man's/woman's away at achieving what the big boys/girls are doing with vacuum chambers.

I'm not hearing that my idea is a loser, still on the fence about it -- it does have the one added benefit of being clear, which means you'd be able to see what's under the fence (_cough_ there are technically three fences on this thing -- there's the fence that has the holes for the arms which adjusts toward and away from the body, there is a fence that bolts to the bottom of that which has a flat bottom and a skate, and then there is a molded fence that bolts to the bottom of that which covers the skate so it doesn't get damaged; the intention here is that if you want multiple evenly spaced cuts, you remove the molded fence to expose the flat skate fence and just slot the skate into each previous cut to make multiple rips or cross-cuts along the surface of a board; I am explaining this because the acrylic window would go into the un-molded, flat fence with the skate -- meaning you'd be able to see your cuts in the window as you move along).


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I learned something today ...






Figure in wood is really just a mix of hard and soft grains? Wow, never thought it would have been so deceptively simple of an explanation. "This changes everything" is my thought.

So when my Dad looks at a blotch in my router table and I tell him "not sure what happened there" and he says "looks like you've got some tiger eye, looks nice" according to Charlies Neil, it's a patch of soft wood.

In fact, I had no friggin' clue that I was trace staining when I did my router table.









Router Table Top


DevinT's Project




www.lumberjocks.com





When I made the table, I grabbed the stain because of different reasons, but reading back on what I wrote about that project, and looking at the table top, I absolutely love it -- and after watching that video, and understanding what it was that was happening as I applied stain and then finish, I love it even more.


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## DavePolaschek (Oct 21, 2016)

DevinT said:


> Hmmm, so my idea to Shaper Origin out a shape in acrylic and inlay it is really a poor-man's/woman's away at achieving what the big boys/girls are doing with vacuum chambers.


I have a vacuum chamber. I guess I’m a big boy. I really should get it set up again since moving to Santa Fe...

The only real concern I see with your method is if the wood around the acrylic tries to move. If you don't have a good bond, you may end up with the pieces coming apart.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

DavePolaschek said:


> I have a vacuum chamber. I guess I’m a big boy. I really should get it set up again since moving to Santa Fe...
> 
> The only real concern I see with your method is if the wood around the acrylic tries to move. If you don't have a good bond, you may end up with the pieces coming apart.


I am not fond of brand-ism, because it causes "vendor lock-in" (if whomever provides the thing I need goes out of business, I'm out of luck), however, in this one case I am not sure what it is, but it seems to have some give ...

The non-CA crystal clear Gorilla Glue that takes 2 hours to dry appears to have some flex to it.









Clear Gorilla Glue | Gorilla Glue


Clear Gorilla Glue is an incredibly strong glue that's easy to use. This clear glue is ideal for indoor and outdoor projects and bonds virtually everything.




www.gorillatough.com





In fact, I've found a very strange use for it that I doubt few have tried.

One of the ways that I test glues, adhesives, and other bonding agents is to apply a layer on top of acrylic and then clamp a piece of silicone sheet to it.

Let me stop you right there ... the _intention_ is not to bond the silicone to acrylic -- nothing bonds to silicone (except silicone). The intention is to see what happens to the bonding agent:

1. In an anaerobic environment
2. When the silicone is removed

CA glue is of course brittle. This gorilla glue on the other hand has some give but keeps its form (it actually took on the texture of the silicone and kept it).

I actually take this stuff and flood it onto surfaces that I want to turn into push blocks, clamp the silicone (drawer liner) to it, and after 2 hours I have a semi-pressure-sensitive textured surface that grips.

I wonder if that could be enough to account for wood movement or if I would have to go full-on hot glue or silicone adhesive (which is alright with a gun and spreader, but man does that stuff in the tube absolutely stink and get everywhere and make an absolute horrid mess)


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

DevinT said:


> Sharing an idea that I have that I am on the fence about (no pun intended).
> 
> One optional part for my plane is a 3/8" thick, 17.5" long, 3" wide board (flat fence with skate).
> 
> ...





DevinT said:


> Sharing an idea that I have that I am on the fence about (no pun intended).
> 
> One optional part for my plane is a 3/8" thick, 17.5" long, 3" wide board (flat fence with skate).
> 
> ...


depends on the wood and grain.at 3/8" though it might.the plexi might prevent that.wouldn't hurt.shame to cover up that beautiful bubinga though.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Oh the 3/8” is not going to be Bubinga. I haven’t decided on what wood to use for that yet. It’s Bubinga for the body (one solid piece), Bubinga for the molded fence (one solid piece), Gaboon Ebony for the main fence (again, one solid piece), and the flat fence with skate between the main fence and molded fence is open for discussion.

3/8” x 17.5” x 3”

toyed with the idea of just plexi but it might crack unless I use nylon washers (which works) but, ick. Maple but … I don’t think that goes with Bubinga and Ebony. Goncalo Alves maybe? Purple Heart? Not really sure. Maybe just Walnut (heh as-if Walnut is not beautiful itself).


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Boxwood? Brass wear Strip?


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I’ve looked for boxwood in the past but cannot find any. It seems like a relic I read about in books. I’ve tried eBay, MacBeath, and Ashby Lumber but none can provide any. Do you know where I can get some or have some shipped?

it is incredibly stable I have read and would love some but, is it also expensive?


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Side note on brass: I intend to do as the old timers (19th century) and profile the top so it has to be able to be cut with wood cutting profile bits that I have selected for the molding operation. I know aluminum would work perhaps — and I could research if brass is softer than aluminum.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Hold on a minute, you’re yank in’ my chain …
According to additional research Boxwood is rare and “the most expensive wood in the World” heh, you got me (only because historical texts speak of it like it is as cheap and easy to come by as pine these days).

Also, I raise the question: if you relaxed 90% or more of the grain with a stable inlay, how much possible wood movement could there even be in sealed wood? Tenths of thousandths of an inch I would imagine depending on grain orientation


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Right now I think I am leaning Paduak as an accent to the Bubinga and Ebony


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

what a bout quality plywood for the fence?
About boxwood, have a look at the video about grease box from "the woodwright's shop".
He says you should ask park gardeners.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

rarewoods usa has a bunch of it dev,but the prices are pretty high.one piece that was 43.44 x 5.3 x 2 was 229.00 bucks. and the quality of most pieces was not great,lots of checks and inclusions.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I did an inventory check now that the final dimensions have materialized and it’s a good news, bad news, good news situation:

1. Good news. I found a 40 x 4 x 3/4 board of rough milled wax capped Honduran Rosewood in my garage that is unspoken-for that should be able to yield 2 x flat skate fence at 17-1/2 x 3 x 3/8

2. Bad news.My second largest stock of Ebony is only 16 x 1-3/4 wide and 5/8 thick (I need 9 x 2 x 3/4 for the Ebony).

3. Good news. I get to go pick up some [more] Ebony and see if anything strikes me more than the Honduran Rosewood I have on-hand that will work for the 17-1/2 x 3 x 3/8


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

ASIDE: I am _really_ really digging the idea of Bubinga, Rosewood, and Ebony


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Don't forget the accents of Holy, maybe as a String Inlay?


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Well, but …

1. No holly at my dealer last 3 times I was there (4 visits ago they had an 8/4 board of Holly but it got snapped up in less than a week; I tend to visit quite often as the lumber yard is just one block over, about 500 feet away from my front door).

2. I classify Bubinga as Red/Orange, Honduran Rosewood as Brown, and Ebony as black. Combined with multiple brass rods, black oxide coated steel bits, stainless steel bits, various other high carbon steel bits, and satin chrome plated spring steel bits, … I _guess_ a little white could be splashed with string inlay …

3. I don’t have string inlay tools for creating the stringer.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

While working on a standoff, I realized that to get the most strength out of its shape, I would need to cut it out of end grain (due to its size). I came up with an alternative ... Aluminum.

It's a small part. 1 inch wide by 0.1285 x 0.100 if I make it out of Aluminum, or, if I make it out of wood (Ebony), it would be 1 inch wide by 0.300 x 3/4" (so Aluminum also allows me to make a much thinner standoff).

Think of it as a difference between making an biscuit and a checkring.

The point is to provide a 50-thou thick shoulder with a magnet in the center for holding the edge of a Starrett ruler which itself is 43-thou thick. Here is an illustration ...











And how the ruler edge is held in place by the neodymium magnets (stacked in series for added strength -- each one is a mere 3mm x 6mm ... just a hair under 1/8" x 1/4", making them the perfect nominal size for a 1/4" diameter hole 1/8" deep, FYI).










Imagine the Starrett is the green and the magnets are pink (for contrast). This is a cross-section (note that the reason the edge of the ruler can seemingly float in mid-air at the center of the magnet is because the ruler is 1 inch wide and the magnets are only nominally 1/4" wide so the shoulder is approximately 3/4" surface area left-to-right).

I think a 50-thou shoulder ought to be enough ... however, I was afraid that if I cut this biscuit out of wood WITHOUT cutting it from the top to get the grain standing tall, then there would be a chance I could sheer off the 50-thou shoulder because the grain is oriented incorrectly (again, unless cut from end grain where I flip the board up and expose the end grain to the router bit instead of cutting it out of the face of the board). That's what got me thinking ... well, ... I have 100-thou precision ground Aluminum in my stock pile that I could just make the plate and slap it into a 50-thou pocket, chamfer the sides of the aluminum at 45 degrees, and glue it into place so it straddles 50-thou of the magnet and exposes a 50-thou shoulder for the ruler to set on.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Yeah, that aluminum ain't gonna work. Too squirrelly. Probably over complicating this shoulder. I'm just going to leave it alone until the simplest solution comes to me.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

In the meantime, I traded in the undersized Gaboon Ebony for a proper sized one. They only charged $4 for the difference. This board is large enough for the fence so now I have two properly sized boards for Ebony fences (you know, since I am making two of these contraptions).


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Oh my. We are in deep now, boys and girls.

I finally have ALL of the parts.

8/4 Bubinga
3/4 Gaboon Ebony
3/4 Honduran Rosewood
1/4 acrylic sheet
0.100 aluminum sheet
0.015 steel sheet
1/4 brass rod
1/2 brass rod
1/8 brass rod
6mm neodymium magnets
M4 threaded inserts
M6 threaded inserts
DIN125 washers
1/4 split washers
1/4 regular washers
Saws
1/4-20 thumb screws
1/4-20 thumb nuts
1/4-20 swivel nuts
1/4-20 threaded inserts
1/4-20 threaded rods
1/4-20 button head socket cap screws
4R 6-inch Starrett rules

We are finally in the straight and narrow. Outside dimensions can no longer change, components can no longer change, linkages are finalized, accents and moldings have been designed, and now it’s simply a matter of finishing up a simple stand-off shape, formulating to cut procedure and setup steps (as there are numerous setups).

I highly doubt that anyone is as excited about this as I am.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Oh, forgot the blog story pictures of all the hardware going into this build. It is quite impressive once you see it with the wood that has been selected. Note that the top Bubinga board is the only piece of lumber I have dimensioned (thickness only) so far as I continue to spend most cycles on the design — which can burn me out if I don’t take these little breaks to look at the physical materials to ground me on-occasion.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I can hear the peanut gallery already though …

“Golly, aren’t you done with this thing yet?”

I’m having fun. I don’t want the fun to end when the product is done. I’d like that to be the start of the real fun. If I wasn’t having fun right now, I probably would have just slapped the blade to a piece of walnut, drilled two 1/4-inch holes, threw a couple cam clamps with washers through the saw and board, tighten, and go.

But, it warrants repeating, … I love me some mechanical linkages.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Hmmm. Not liking the idea of putting any aluminum on this thing at all.

thinking of ordering some C360


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Made some make shift pieces and didn’t like them. I really like wood for this one accent and I ran some force tests. The ruler disengages from the magnets long before enough force could be applied to sheer off the shoulder. I was worried about nothing but I did also determine I don’t like a 50-thou shoulder for this, I like a 100-thou shoulder; maybe couod go as low as 80-thou, but if I’m going to make an Ebony biscuit, might as well go for a 100-thou shoulder. Will look more dramatic and be a bigger target to hit. Also, the drop off of the magnetic attraction to the Starrett is around 1/8” reach from this tiny 6mm magnet. Having a 100-thou shoulder is really really nice. The magnet just sucks the ruler right into the crook. It’s super enjoyable and insures an accurate read every time, all the time, with almost no effort whatsoever (just what I was going for). I love these little reinforcing unit tests that tell me what is impractical and what is supremely aesthetic.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

(throws caution to the wind)

SCREW IT!!!

(throws cocobolo in the pile)

Pretty sure I have enough to make these tiny little shoulder bushings (it’s like the opposite of a flanged bushing; where the step is from the ID to the OD instead of like on a flanged bushing where the step is from the OD to the ID)


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

New pic with the Cocobolo so we can see the full stack of wood require to make 2 units


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

The thought has crossed my mind that when I finish it, then I have to make a box for the thing, ugh. But at least I can use it to make its own box.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

We are much further ahead than last time I gave an update (above).

Body: finalized and cut files formed
Main fence: finalized and cut files formed
Aux flat fence: designed but not finalized and no cut files yet
Molded fence: mostly finalized but I have one more cut file to create

So we're closing-in.










Zooming in ... there's 4 cut files (requiring 4 setups) to produce the main fence (from Gaboon Ebony dimensioned to 3/4" x 9" x 2"):










This is the big picture










This the profile view. The body will be Bubinga, the main fence will be Gaboon Ebony, the Standoff will be Cocobolo, the flat fence will be Honduran Rosewood, and the molded fence will be (checks notes) also Bubinga (from the same stock as the body).










But hey, let's take a look at the new cut files created for the molded fence. 8 different cut files, but thankfully only one setup (just 8 tool changes in the process).


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I was having serious doubts about putting split washers under the thumb screws that lock the fence on the arms, so, I put together a test and I am glad I did.

got out my Ryoba and sliced off a hunk of redwood.

Pulled out a 3/8 twist bit and chucked it up into my Stanley No 611. Bored a through-hole in said redwood block.

Sunk a 1/4-20 threaded insert into the block, rammed a gauge in the other end, marked the end of the insert on the side of the block. Then put tue thumb screw into the insert, rammed the gauge in the other end again, and marked the end of the thumb screw on the side of the block.

grabbed a 1/2” twist bit and chucked it up into my Millers Falls brace, and bored a cross-hole where the apex of the hole was in-between the marks showing where the threaded insert ends and the thumb screw ends.

slapped 1/2” brass lathe bar stock into the 1/2” cross hole, tightened down the thumb screw and …

Lo-and-behold I am shocked at how well this holds. No split washer needed. A tiny little pressure and that bar is going nowhere. Easy to lock, easy to unlock.

for reference, I did try with a split washer and it was NO GOOD. I had to use a strip of leather and pliers to get the thumb screw out of the insert. That kind of negates the point of using a thumb screw. Wow, split washers really do generate a LOT of force against the screw. That definitely means that they were an excellent choice for attaching the aux fence to the mains (where socket cap screws are used and with the advent of an Alan key will be no problem).

I have to say, I _really_ REALLY like where this is going. Golly, this lathe bar stock slides so smooth in this redwood block (and to think, I bored those holes in a matter of seconds with hand tools, how buttery smooth is it going to be in a hole bored with the Shaper Origin in Gaboon Ebony).

ok, picture time …


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Ugh.

So, I was in shop looking over the Honduran Rosewood, and what did I find?

A void. By a knot.

Oh, but it gets better (non-sarcastically).

The 38.5” long x 4” wide board is actually 1” thick, not 3/4”.

That opens up (pun intended) some possibilities with respect to not having to go out and buy more. That-is, if I can somehow manage to resaw this 1” inch thick board and still manage to get two 3/8” flat boards out of the resawn length I need.

There is only a 1/4” margin for error.

what say you, @bandit571 — think I can get 2 x 3/8” thick boards out of 1” thick board with nothing but a marking gauge some clamps and a Ryoba?


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

there is light at the end of the tunnel !


DevinT said:


> Ugh.
> 
> So, I was in shop looking over the Honduran Rosewood, and what did I find?
> 
> ...


dev imbrace knots there our friend girl ! just reinforce it with ca glue and it will be solid and add beauty.i love and look for defects i can add to a project.


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## DavePolaschek (Oct 21, 2016)

On a good day, I’ll get two 5/16" boards out of a 3/4. On a bad day, I still get a 3/8 and a scrap.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

On the Desktop organizer I built last month...boards were 7/8" thick...resawn to [email protected] 3/8" thickness..

Depends on the thickness of YOUR rip saw's blade..


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Ryoba blade is 0.032” thick, but it’s not the kerf I am worried about — but now that you mention it, to Dave’s point, my margin of error now is 0.218”; 109-thou in the wrong direction and you’re not getting what you need. Then consider that after resaw there will be Lord-only knows to remove any hope (twist, cup, bow, etc) that I am glad Dave confirmed for me that prayers might be involved.

hearing from pottz that CA glue would be an acceptable application here gives me confidence to try it again (I tried CA filling once before but it did not end well).

so, this would be the plan I guess …


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Do I fill before dimensioning?

turners fill with CA before turning but they are bringing HSS or Carbide to the lathe. Maybe this is a stupid question, but should I worry about CA filling before hand planing? I don’t have “activator” so would probably just let it dry for 24h before planing (being extra cautious)


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

DavePolaschek said:


> On a good day, I’ll get two 5/16" boards out of a 3/4. On a bad day, I still get a 3/8 and a scrap.


Oh, wait, I see what you did there.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

DevinT said:


> Ryoba blade is 0.032” thick, but it’s not the kerf I am worried about — but now that you mention it, to Dave’s point, my margin of error now is 0.218”; 109-thou in the wrong direction and you’re not getting what you need. Then consider that after resaw there will be Lord-only knows to remove any hope (twist, cup, bow, etc) that I am glad Dave confirmed for me that prayers might be involved.
> 
> hearing from pottz that CA glue would be an acceptable application here gives me confidence to try it again (I tried CA filling once before but it did not end well).
> 
> ...


dev that is character that i strive to preserver in my work.not sure how thin that ca is,id use a thin ca that will soak deep into the cracks.straight clear grain wood is boring !


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

That’s good advice — thin CA.

you buy those activator products, pottz?


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Looking at Starbond currently


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

DevinT said:


> That’s good advice — thin CA.
> 
> you buy those activator products, pottz?


yes because im very impatient


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Ok, I just as well presume to use the same brand


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Hold on, there is a “Heavy Thin” which looks compelling … might have to research thin vs Heavy thin


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

DevinT said:


> Hold on, there is a “Heavy Thin” which looks compelling … might have to research thin vs Heavy thin
> 
> View attachment 3854601


heavy thin ? what the hell is that? is it heavy,or is it thin.can it be both ? 😆


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

After research, they are using a rating for viscosity in a unit of CPS (whatever that is) to describe how “Thin” has a viscosity of 2 CPS (similar to water) and “Heavy Thin” has a viscosity of 4 CPS (similar to olive oil) and is suitable for bonding parts as close as 4-thou.

some reviews I read, some woodworkers use the “Heavy Thin” for two reasons:

1. They say it has a longer open time (will believe it when I see it) and they call it an “Ethyl Cyanoacrylate” — this would be news to me if someone made a CA glue with a longer open time (I was under the impression chemically speaking this was impossible, but maybe they found a way)

2. for larger voids, flow some heavy-thin as a base before putting thicker CA glue in to fill


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I went ahead and ordered the heavy-thin and activator


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

DevinT said:


> I went ahead and ordered the heavy-thin and activator


ok your the guinea pig !!!! let me know how it works 1


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Will do. Best case it works great, worst case, we get some comic relief.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

bandit571 said:


> On the Desktop organizer I built last month...boards were 7/8" thick...resawn to [email protected] 3/8" thickness..
> 
> Depends on the thickness of YOUR rip saw's blade..


band saw though, right?


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## DavePolaschek (Oct 21, 2016)

I use Starbond Thin for filling cracks. Open time isn’t an issue really, as long as glue runs all the way through, which I usually verify by checking whatever I’ve put behind the wood to protect my bench. I use an accelerator when I’m in a hurry (turning, and filling cracks as I go, for example), but if I have time to wait, I prefer that as a stronger patch.

I also frequently patch by squirting in some CA, then hand-sanding with 60 grit to push sawdust around and into the crack, which is then bonded in place by the CA. But I have also packed the crack with sawdust beforehand to ensure a better fill. Both ways work, but I suspect pre-packing the crack / void is better for a deep crack.

As for resawing, yes, my ability to saw to a line has gotten better over the years, but I still have bad days and will wander by more than an eighth while resawing. On those days, I will frequently make the initial kerf with my table saw with a 1/8" kerf. It wastes wood, but is better than having a wildly wandering kerf that wastes even more.

Good luck however you proceed.

Oh, final note, I will usually fill a crack / void like that before dimensioning, though the CA and sawdust will be harder than the wood, similar to a gnarly knot, so you’ll need to consider that as you try to plane it. If you don’t stabilize the knot beforehand, you’re liable to pop the knot entirely, which is a more involved fix. Still doable, but trickier to get looking right.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Thanks @DavePolaschek that is very welcome experience shared that will help guide me.

it’s going to be painful waiting for the Starbond to arrive but I will manage. Lots to do in the meantime, like get the molded fence stock ready by thicknessing it down from 1.75” to 1.5” flat.

the calm before planing (get to try out the new Plane Magic Paraffin wax to take this Bubinga down.










that’s the ol’ super glue between strips of painter’s tape. Has always worked quite well for me. The stool is just my lazy way of weighting it until the CA glue dries.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Test product is lined up. If it fails to impress I might go back to good ol’ beeswax.

trusty No 6 comes out first. Going to chuff cross grain until we get rid of all the pencil (as there is a hollow in the center)


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Bandsaw makes more waves than the Irish Sea....so, after the thin kerf cut...the D8 comes out to finish the cut.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

bandit571 said:


> Bandsaw makes more waves than the Irish Sea....so, after the thin kerf cut...the D8 comes out to finish the cut.


will have to add a D8 to my wish list


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Got the fore planing done real fast with No 6 while baby slept. It was quite enjoyable and I quite love this No 6 (definitely needed it in my life).









Fore planing Bubinga







youtube.com


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

The No 5 (with bronze knob) was finally pulling its weight as I finally found its secret power (with the way it is setup currently). It has proven to be a super user when it comes to following the 6 leading up to the 4 (huh, who’d ‘ave thunk).


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

For your Enjoyment..








About time to flip the board over...and..








And hopefully NOT saw into my bench...Results?








Need this board to be 5/8" thick...Tablesaw cut a wider kerf than the D8 does...have to plane this flat..








Not a biggie...had 2 of these to do, this evening...panel for a box' s lid, and another for the box's bottom panel..








Have fun...


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

bandit571 said:


> For your Enjoyment..
> View attachment 3854739
> 
> About time to flip the board over...and..
> ...


you hand tool guys make me tired just looking at the pic's........and im younger 🤣


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

69 years old, so I kind of NEED that Cardio Workout...


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I agree, I feel pumped afterward (after the initial fatigue wears off).


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

dev your killin me girl.....whats your eta to deliver this amazing tool my friend ?


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

pottz said:


> dev your killin me girl.....whats your eta to deliver this amazing tool my friend ?


Christmas, my friend. Could be sooner but giving myself a decent runway.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

The Plane Magic Paraffin wax in a tube …

Will take photos tomorrow but I already have a verdict worth sharing before I get down to the shop again.

Well, they ship it in a white tube. This will be important to note later when I describe what happened.

I had not dropped the tube or abused it in any way but when applying it to a plane for the fourth time (which up until this point was smooth sailing) I pulled off the cap and the top portion of wax broke off and when I went to go smear some on the plane I was met with air wear there was wax. I looked in the cap and there was the bit of wax that was previously sticking out a little and in the tube was … air!

That’s right, there was a void in the tube of product that could not be seen until the tip broke off in the cap. I feel kind of cheated.

The product itself is fantastic. Works well on both corrugated and smooth soled planes from my testing. I like it more than beeswax (uses less and reapply less often).

However, the whole discovering I got half (if that) a tube of product was disheartening.

I think I will do what I have seen some do and buy regular candles. Kind of hard to hide a void in a tall skinny candle.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Almost done with the fence lumber. Sheesh, this one section had some really wild grain that tore out all over the place and sent me back to sharpen and then still tore out. It simply did not like it when the plane was canted (because that lowers the angle of the cut).

Through a series of adjustments on the 5, I eliminated the tearout and got the thing down to just a hair above the final required thickness.

In other news, not really loving the paraffin after more use. It’s just too thick. I am going back to beeswax (specifically Daddy Van’s; I like the emulsions). It may not be as “clean” as scraping a candle along the sole but I like the way it works better (no initial slog on the first push and I didn’t notice a difference in length of lubrication between reapplications; if anything the beeswax seemed to last just as long per application).

The No 6 continuing to pull its weight and proving to be worth its weight in Gold. My trusty No 4 however, I think is in the dumps. I think I need to replace the blade on it or Go back to the stones. It’s not taking a full width shaving and I think that’s because despite being straight the dang micro-bevel dubbed over — I usually don’t use micro-bevels, but was so tired after putting a new primary bevel on the thing that I just wanted to be done sharpening it so wimped out on putting a proper secondary on. I really need to get that Axminster Trade Professional Ultimate Edge or a Tormek or something other than diamond plates. I have even run out of all my low grit sandpapers. Supplies are getting low.

In yet more news, I am very very very glad that I decided to NOT resaw that 1” x 38.5” x 4” rosewood because I was bending down to pick something up off the floor and as I was coming up caught a glimpse of it from down low and …

It’s cupped by 3/16”

Based on my calculations that would mean in the resaw my margin of error would be approximately just under 1/64” that if the saw drifted just a few thousandths of an inch, I’d be hosed in trying to extract two 3/8” thick boards and I can all but guarantee that those few thousandths — were I able to resaw with laser precision using a Ryoba to lay a .031” kerf) would be eaten up in some other way (more cupping after the resaw, planing, whatever).

The heavy thick CA glue and acceleratorhave since arrived while I was working on the fence lumber. So the Rosewood will soon move into processing


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

that board is gorgeous but a lot of work dev.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

My Dad always says, “anything worth doing is worth doing well” — and I am loath to take shortcuts. Give me the hardest jobs in the worst conditions so that the rest of life seems like a cake walk


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

DevinT said:


> My Dad always says, “anything worth doing is worth doing well” — and I am loath to take shortcuts. Give me the hardest jobs in the worst conditions so that the rest of life seems like a cake walk


i agree ive never seen you take a shortcut if it lessend the quality.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Here we go. Baby is asleep. Let’s see if we can’t finish this up and plane out the tool marks from surfacing. Going to also see how close I can get to my marking gauge line before I am needed outside the shop.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

While creating a parallel face, hopefully you can see with a little wax and a few plane strokes that the machine leaves a lot of tool marks that take some effort to clear in this figured wood


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Just finished. Tool marks are deep because the surfacer is not precision trammed


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

1-1/4” thick for the body
1-1/2” thick for the auxiliary fence

still to go is the rosewood and Gaboon


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

dev thats why i have a 15" planer and 16" drum sander.i let the machines do the dirty work ! but hey i know you dont have the space or the desire for the way i work.i do admire you hand tool junkies,im just gettin tool old and dont have the time !


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I also am at the mercy of PG&E. Last two months they hit me with an $800 electric bill. That’s roughly $26.66 per-day. I have been going through my house trying to eliminate black holes of power without sacrificing needs. Things are really going to hurt when I pull out the Shaper Origin to cut all this.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Aside: I don’t need an EMP to hit the US to take out power before I start eliminating electricity from my work flow. PG&E’s prices are practically an EMP unto themselves. I personally think they are trying to rebound from that multi-million dollar payout from losing in court over the fires they started due to faulty electrical equipment.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

DevinT said:


> Aside: I don’t need an EMP to hit the US to take out power before I start eliminating electricity from my work flow. PG&E’s prices are practically an EMP unto themselves. I personally think they are trying to rebound from that multi-million dollar payout from losing in court over the fires they started due to faulty electrical equipment.


WOW dev thats super high.hell even running my ac all day during our heat waves mines only about 5 ! and listen,ive got 4 refrigerators going,i run my spa for 30-60 minutes everyday.ive got two wall fountains and we have 5 ceiling fans that run 24/7.and that doesn't count the shop equipment i use.man your getting gouged.maybe check to make sure someone isn't tapping into your power.because wow, thats high.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Oh the pain …


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

DevinT said:


> Oh the pain …
> 
> View attachment 3856040
> 
> ...





DevinT said:


> Oh the pain …
> 
> View attachment 3856040
> 
> ...


i can feel it myself just looking at that board  😲


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Cut it in half and that reduced the pain, but clamping this thing for surfacing is going to be more pain, so I might just bench dog it enough to make a flat spot before flipping and surfacing


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

This poor piece of Honduran Rosewood was probably passed-over a hundred or more times in the decades it has been sitting in the attic at my lumber dealer (got a helluva deal on it) and now it is going to have its beauty extracted like Cinderella going to the ball. Hang in there, we’ll make you beautiful yet (as I discovered yet more cracks)


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

About to start surfacing one side to get a flat reference. This thing is held on with wishes and prayers because the other side is severely cupped. Hopefully the glue can hold while I _gently_ remove 1/32” at a time to bring this thing to flat before thicknessing.

hoping someone recognizes the card scraper which works really well


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Pass 1 complete


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I do really like the heavy thin Starbond. Can definitely recommend. I was even able to apply it on the side against gravity and the bead was thin enough that it wicked right into the crack. Now on to the final pass.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

After removing 1/64” nobody would ever be able to tell you there was a crack — thanks for the suggestion! That worked excellent.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Still have a little planing to do to remove the surfacing marks, but this face is looking super flat and the perfect reference for when we flip. So far we have only lost 1/16” so we’re doing amazingly well.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Two different colors of sawdust from the same wood; darker is the patina color that the wood (Honduran Rosewood) ages to


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Time to start shoveling


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

alright who wants some grade-A Honduran …


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I think this looks like a good stopping point for the initial reference face. Time to flip this bad boy.

was Certainly easier to plane than the Bubinga.

turns out there is nothing wrong with my sharpening technique … meaning I didn’t hose my smoother with the last sharpen. What was going on, I found out …

the Bubinga was hard enough to resist the bur that had developed on the toe of the plane but when I brought it to bare on the Honduran rosewood, immediately after one swipe with the smoother I knew what was going on. The toe of the plane (not the blade) left a huge gouge in the wood with every swipe. Yup, needs to be filed.

not sure when but something dinged the toe And after it was filed away the smoother was back in operation — good thing too because this Rosewood once I got past the patina resisted almost everything except the freshly honed blade.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

The face of Sauron....looking back at you..


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Heh, I didn’t see it until you pointed it out


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

FYI, I feel like I low-key rolled in some poison ivy. My face is pouring sweat — who needs a sauna, right? This wood will clear those pores right up. Woof!


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

thats it im gettin you and bandit a wide belt sander for xmas


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Hah, would have to ceiling mount it and lower down to use it and hoist it away.

Jesus H Christ on pogo-stick, this stuff really loves to tearout at 45-degrees (even with a freshly honed blade) and I discovered yet another crack while planing, so it’s back to the surfacing jig— I was thinking “hey, this is going better than planned …” and then, not.

sigh, at least my face has stopped burning — made the mistake of touching my face.

this stuff turns almost everythingthe dust touches a deep purple. Really stains my table top (of MDF).


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## DavePolaschek (Oct 21, 2016)

Tearout like that is when I get out the card scraper. There are times when there’s just no other tool for the job.

Chris Schwarz recently did a video on his sharpening method for card scrapers. Might be worth checking out. The difference between a good hook on a scraper and a not good one can be pretty big.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I have found that this trick from Paul Sellers works, as crazy as it seems, it actually works, that crazy coot









Planing against the grain?


Do you find yourself planing against the grain? Try out this Top Tip for a smooth finish!




youtube.com


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

This hurts so much. I really really didn’t want to do it, but … I really didn’t have much of a choice. Still hurts. The dust will not go in the trash but will be saved for grain fill.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

The good news (knock on wood) is that we are within a few thou of our final thickness.

Whatever tearout occurs now is going to stay in the final piece because I am all out of sandpaper and I don’t feel like jointing my card scraper right now (despite having all the tools necessary). We’ll see. Depends on how the wood acts up.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

DevinT said:


> The good news (knock on wood) is that we are within a few thou of our final thickness.
> 
> Whatever tearout occurs now is going to stay in the final piece because I am all out of sandpaper and I don’t feel like jointing my card scraper right now (despite having all the tools necessary). We’ll see. Depends on how the wood acts up.


expensive saw dust huh


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

That’s why I am making this tool. I just can’t bare to do that to such a beautiful lumber. But… catch-22. Don’t have the tool yet to save every last cubic inch of exotic whilst making the tool out of exotics to save the exotics.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Here we can see how close to the marking gauge line we are. Set to 3/8”, though the target thickness is actually .32” — doesn’t have to be exact though, just in the ballpark of around .015” or under 1/64”, whichever.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

DevinT said:


> That’s why I am making this tool. I just can’t bare to do that to such a beautiful lumber. But… catch-22. Don’t have the tool yet to save every last cubic inch of exotic whilst making the tool out of exotics to save the exotics.


the irony of life dev.for me since i make a lot of small things and turn pens not much exotic wood goes in the burn pile.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Ugh. Today tasted like defeat. The rosewood (“softer” than the Bubinga) is giving me hell. 3-4 days for each side. Questioning life decisions. Eyeing that Bocote board … No! I will not be defeated. Tomorrow out comes the marking pencil and I am going to map the surface. Flat or bust. Thickness be damned. Smooth be damned.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I don’t even know. I have blown past my marking gauge line and am out of parallel and everything is ********************


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Hopefully the smoother and 6 hours of squinting and measuring can bring me back into parallel without going too much thinner


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Hey, on the bright side of things, the dust doesn’t seem to bother me any more.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Also on the bright side — spouse (immune to poison ivy) loves the smell of the garage after I have been working rosewood all day. Sigh, this damn wood.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

These are the results I would prefer … 






Which makes me want to whip out the grinder and put a 50-degree bevel on my blade and also buy a toothed blade for scrubbing.

My reasoning for continuing down the hand plane path is that it takes practice and the only way to get that practice is to take a few lumps in the process. It hurts, but there is learning.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Closed my mouth until it clogged on every other stroke and then just started backing it up an eighth of a turn until it stopped clogging and guess what …

I then went about trying to make it tearout and it wouldn’t. I literally could not make it tearout. Damhikt! That ONE (!) thing changed everything (but that only worked because I came prepared for a fight and had honed and set everything else prior to bring the smoother to it).

OK, so I prevailed over 90% of the tearout and I stopped because I got the thing flat and mostly smooth and then ripped it up (without issue) and inspected the width.

i don’t know how this is even possible but … I’m over!

registering .342 to .357

but I planed past my marking gauge line! Which was set at .325

how on Earth?

I’m not even going to look this Gift Horse in the mouth. I’m just going to take it as a win.

I was pretty determined this morning. Bright raking light, a straight edge, a pencil, and single swipe attacks to bring it all in line. I am happy with that the faces are parallel with all edges within 1/64” of each other or less. That’s about as good as you can hope for by hand, I think, I’m this wood, with the tools I have.

Could I have made a trip to my friends house and used his jointer and thicknesser? Yeah, that would have been easier. No buts, I just don’t want to have to rely on someone else.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Oh, and the card scraper did come out.

please tell me I am not the only one when using a scraper, you’re going a long and each stroke is magically erasing tool marks and …

you are thinking to yourself … wow, this is amazing, I love this, I’ll be done in NO TIME!

and then it happens … you’re 99.99% of the way through, the raking light shows one … ONE … SINGLE … LAST … ridge …

and you’ve taken 30 successful swipes but it’s always the last one …

CHATTER and then … sad trombone.

you then fight the urge to throw the card scraper into orbit


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Not to mention the burnt thumbs from holding the scraper blade? 

Question: Humidity level IN the shop....how much does it change?


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I don’t have a barometer in the garage, maybe I should get one so I can tell? You think the wood swelled overnight?

In other news, I like to think of rosewood as the graffit-loving, tagging, school-skipping hoodlum of the woodworking World.

Here it has tagged my bench, almost as-if to scribe “Rosewood wuz here”


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Katz-Moses recommends getting a couple magnets to act as stand-offs so your thumbs aren’t in direct contact with the hot metal — works well as a make-shift heat-sync (I’ve never had the blade get so hot that the magnets heat up)


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Things are continuing to stack up nicely.










now the fear is setting in …

Next is the Gaboon … and I’m ********************ting myself because I’ve never worked it before and it is friggin’ expensive. $60 for this small hunk. I really hope I can extract a 3/4” x 2” x 9” board out of this hunk.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

It ain’t gonna plane itself … so here we go. Got the scraping done so I could secure it for planing — which will have to wait because pediatricians visit


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I took some test swipes before gluing it down to determine grain direction.

Pffffttt…

I was worried about nothing. This straight grained wood planes like butter.


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## DavePolaschek (Oct 21, 2016)

DevinT said:


> registering .342 to .357
> 
> but I planed past my marking gauge line! Which was set at .325


I thought your line was at ⅜. That’s 0.375.

You didn’t by any chance have a brain fart when converting from fractional to decimal?


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

dev you need one of these,makes life easier.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I have that exact card scraper, minus the holder.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

DavePolaschek said:


> I thought your line was at ⅜. That’s 0.375.
> 
> You didn’t by any chance have a brain fart when converting from fractional to decimal?


OK, I have to check the design spec.

I know I made a brain fart in the conversion above, but .32” is coming from somewhere, and I think the spec might be calling for .32 and I mistakenly marked out 3/8


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

DevinT said:


> I have that exact card scraper, minus the holder.


good now get the holder,it will save your thumbs and hands and make scraping a lot easier.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

pottz said:


> good now get the holder,it will save your thumbs and hands and make scraping a lot easier.


Roger that.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Pfffffffftttttttt…

the moment I went to take a single swipe the tape/glue hold broke and when I flipped it over, the side I thought was flat, wasn’t. Huge hollow, but this wood planes SO INCREDIBLY EASY with my smoother that ‘twas no trouble at all just to plane the reference face against a bench dog.

Moving on to creating the parallel side now. This stuff is a breeze to work (compared to Dalbergia Stevensonii)


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Almost a "Reverse Spalting" going on? Instead of a black stripe on cream coloured Maple....hmmm

BTW: I have an older Stanley No. 80 I use as a scraper...easier to sharpen, too...


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Yeah, I really dig the contrast (not sure if sapwood or not). Going to try and position the CNC to grab as much of it as possible.

the whole Ebony board is tapered pretty badly though, so not sure how much of that stripe I will be able to incorporate. Who knows what we will find on the flip side after surfacing to thickness (3/4”).

Also …

This is my favorite weight to use when clamping something with glue










I will try and get a Stanley 80 or scraper plane some day.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

yeah that ebony smoothed out real nice.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Damn, and what did I forget to do before gluing it down for surfacing? Forgot to lay a gauge line, lol. Ripped it up, cut the gauge line and will now glue it back down. Hey, blue tape and super glue is cheap. Eyeballing thickness when there are two layers of tape under it can lead to errors. Here we can see at least just how badly tapered this thing is … but I took that into consideration when I bought it. The excess will just go into a bin of exotic scraps.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Well, the other side was much worse. Any tips on how to fill that hole? I’ve a metric crapton of sawdust I could mix with something and pack in there before I hand plane it smooth and the rest of the way to the line


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

The only hole I am concerned about is the one where I stuck the Starrett in for measurement. It falls within the bounds … I think … of my dimensions. Maybe … just MAYBE, it doesn’t, but will have to check


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Note: I kept the surfacer at the same setting, so if I overfill this hole I can just whip out the surfacer and level the over fill


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## TravisH (Feb 6, 2013)

I have limited experience with ebony but found issues with pieces that are visually similar to be problematic in regards to integrity around that area. Splintering and splitting was common place until I broke out the glue. All the ebony I have worked with is easily considered brittle.

Hairline cracks were soaked with CA glue. I the used a wire brush to remove any soft wood and blew out well with compressed air. I taped several areas where the crack ran through the boards and then filled partially with an epoxy that will penetrate well. I then put the boards inside a heavy duty garbage bag and used my shop vac to pull a vacuum, while not as good as a legit set up it did the trick. I removed after a few minutes and the filled with more epoxy mixed with fine ebony dust. 

If I could see a crack I was almost guaranteed it would open up or fall apart during the processing. I assume improper drying played a part as I think they hack the stuff up and soak in thick wax and hope for the best.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

yeah you could do like travis stated but ,wasn't that piece coated with wax before you started ? if so there is probably some wax in those cracks and voids too ?


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

catching up.
Dust collection in post #659, 7th picture.
Why swipe when one can saw above the trash can?

Thinking about it, I do that when peeling potatoes.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

We got lucky, my friends.

sometimes, old school is the best school. I fixed my laser printer and sent one of the cut files to be printed, verified the print size to be accurate, cut it out carefully with scissors, flipped it over (since we’re working with Ebony, the white side contrasts better) and …

WE ARE IN THE CLEAR


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Don't ya just love it when a Plan comes together...


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I do … and I chose the less challenging pieces for the first unit. Check out the other board of Ebony — heh, I think this one is going to be more challenging


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

pottz said:


> yeah you could do like travis stated but ,wasn't that piece coated with wax before you started ? if so there is probably some wax in those cracks and voids too ?


you make a very valid point and it made me think of pulling out some parchment paper and a heat gun. A few passes with the heat gun and any wax buried deep should just drip out.

thankfully though, I got half way through picking out the rot when I realized I can just print the CNC file and see if I can avoid the thing altogether and … voila … don’t even have to worry about that there rot


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

LOL! I went to go put the cutout away in a bag. Was too big for the bag. Folded it in half and as I was stuffing it into the bag, my brain said …

Hey, that would make a really nice shape for a custom hammer! What do you think? I’d make it bigger of-course.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)




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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

DevinT said:


> View attachment 3856602
> 
> View attachment 3856603


thats quite the collection dev. i know a lot of people here do save sawdust from various woods for use as a filler.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Long string of expletives.

Blew past my marking gauge line again and I've got a tapered board.

Started with a tapered board, and ended with a tapered board.

Now too thin. Waste of time and money. I give up on this technique. If it doesn't work for hardwoods, then in my opinion there's no point. There's absolutely no point in my mind in:

1. Hand planing a reference side
2. Surfacing a parallel side
3. Hand planing said parallel side smooth

The damn hand plane in these hard woods (yeah, I know I said that it was easy to plane ... I was dead wrong, _expletive_ Ebony) cuts so erratically that I can't take a known-parallel surface and plane it and still come out with something parallel. It's either got twist or it ends up being tapered. Absolute waste of time, energy, and money.

The Bubinga was borderline, but the planes did what they were designed to do and getting the results I desired was dead simple. Rosewood AND Ebony just ... AAARRGGHHH!

I am so frustrated right now. One end measures .64 and the other .768 -- for some reason the same techniques that worked on other woods to smooth without removing too much on one side just doesn't work on this wood, and I don't know why.

I just spent all day trying to do something that should have taken seconds and I just want to bury my head in a bunch of pillows. Cocobolo didn't even fight me this badly.

Another day of defeat.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

There is good news though ...

The rosewood ... which I measured ranging from .342" to .357"

My design calls for .312" (5/16") in the drawings (and it can be taller, but no-thinner than .3" or it would expose a bolt head and prevent mating of a nearby component.

Where 3/8" (.375") comes into play is that apparently that was my maximum thickness -- and so I did the right thing in marking out 3/8" and shooting for it ... and when I blew past it (which I predicted I would), I would be in the general ballpark of 5/16" ... smart of me ... wish I was that smart on the Ebony (I just had less to work with).

I've cooled off a bit and am about to go take a saw to the Ebony and see if I can't salvage it. I've a 1/2" counter-bore in the long-grain, and so if it is too thin, then the walls of the counter-bore (.17" deep) will just break off (is my concern). For example, if I was at the far end of the taper, at .64" thickness, that's .07" or roughly 1/16" walls at the thinnest part on the counter-bores.

Sigh.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Nope. No salvaging it.

It just gets worse the more I inspect it.

Let’s just rip the band-aid off and survey the full damage.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

.57 to .69

Absolute garbage. I only have myself and my inexperience to blame.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Screw it. Ebony is out. Paduak is in.










Pulled this out of the pile and it’s reading .822 to .825 — it’s flat, not smooth, but I do have a tiny amount of sandpaper left.

It Is large enough to accommodate two fences.

EDIT: forgot to wipe my hands off and left Ebony dust fingerprints on the Paduak — that’s the smudge you see in the photo

I am feeling pretty beat up by the Ebony. Gorgeous but finicky. I hate being defeated. Part of me wants to just buy more and try again (yes, I have another block, but no point in making two tools with different woods)


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Did I mention I hate being defeated?


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

10 times out of 10 ... it's knowing when to stop.

With each new species, I have to re-learn when to stop. Each wood seems to have its own precarious eccentricities when being dealt-with by-hand. machines ... you just maintain them and feed them wood and they just work.

Sometimes I think I am a masochist.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Somehow, I am feeling your pain...must be contagious..?








only 19 more to do...


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

DevinT said:


> Long string of expletives.
> 
> Blew past my marking gauge line again and I've got a tapered board.
> 
> ...


i hear ya and thats why ill stand by my machines.set the thickness you want and thats the thickness you'll get.sorry but hand tools have there limited use in my shop.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

DevinT said:


> .57 to .69
> 
> Absolute garbage. I only have myself and my inexperience to blame.


dev chill girl !!!!! ebony is a tricky wood for any woodworker to deal with.it can start our promising and turn to ******************** real fast 💩


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

DevinT said:


> Screw it. Ebony is out. Paduak is in.
> 
> View attachment 3856645
> 
> ...


padauk 😎


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

DevinT said:


> Did I mention I hate being defeated?
> 
> View attachment 3856639
> View attachment 3856640


i know you well enough,it was a given girl 🤣


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

DevinT said:


> 10 times out of 10 ... it's knowing when to stop.
> 
> With each new species, I have to re-learn when to stop. Each wood seems to have its own precarious eccentricities when being dealt-with by-hand. machines ... you just maintain them and feed them wood and they just work.
> 
> Sometimes I think I am a masochist.


not just with hand tools


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

damn i wish you were a few minutes away and id be over there with a good bottle and we'd work this out right now.wouldn't get much woodworking done but we'd work it out !!!!!🍻🥂😁


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

A bottle sounds good. What you drinkin’? I’ll pick up something similar. Expensive lesson to learn, and …

I didn’t mention this before because I didn’t consider it until I tried to clean up.

I had to scour my hands for a good hour with a harsh scrubby to get all the black off and many of my tools need some acetone— it seemed so dry at first but Jesus it’s actually really oily.

Thanks for letting me know that Ebony is tricky and it’s not all my fault. This was my first battle with it and I concede, I need … a thicknesser or drum sander.

I took a closer look at the remaining Ebony that I started to process above and … yeah, I am admitting temporary defeat because I see that Paduak is an acceptable stand-in.

Still hurts to look at this. But hey, it’s not a total loss, I processed a good chunk of Ebony and still have a good amount, just not for this project m except maybe some accents.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

hey dont be a hater girl,ebony has it's place,you just got to understand it and know how to deal with it.dont get mad,get educated,and move on girl. as for the bottle it's buffalo trace.check it out ! the oldest whiskey in the usa ! cheers 😎


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Hater? What?


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Not sure what you are saying.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

DevinT said:


> Not sure what you are saying.


probably because your sober ? im just trying to follow you 🤣 😎


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Yeah, I will probably wipe the dust off this bottle as I get closer to the end of this God forsaken …


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## Desert_Woodworker (Jan 28, 2015)

Nice work


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I am confused. The Ebony was a total failure.

re: Nice work


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

DevinT said:


> I am confused. The Ebony was a total failure.
> 
> re: Nice work


maybe try some african blackwood.not cheap either but a little easier to work with.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

So I had a long think.

it hit me (like a ton of bricks).

I know what went wrong … 2 things.

1. on all the other hardwoods I have worked (which are less expensive), I purchased in excess of thickness, wisely

2. I would always thickness about 1/16” away from my final thickness, plane out ALL the tool marks and THEN sneak up on my final thickness while maintaining no-twist and flatness

well, the problem was two-fold …

A. The price affected my wood selection. Also the wax coating hid a lot of rot that I could not see until I got it home and scraped it.

B. Because I had little to no excess thickness from the start due to selection, I was doomed from the start. I needed to get 1” thick or better and I now know how to identify potential problems despite the wax-dip. I needed to surface to about 1/16 or greater above my marking gauge line. I needed to sneak up on my final thickness. Problem was that by the time I had ablated the surfacing tool marks, the marking gauge line was gone and I could no longer easily track twist. It was flat but twisted to hell when the final tool marks were gone.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

_cough_


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I have a problem


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Note that had I not gone goblin and planed past the rot, they would have gladly taken it back and refunded me because it is a premium product that they support. That is _really_ good to know.

I explained the issue to them that I bought for a specific dimension and the wax concealed rot on the first board and I have doubts about getting what I need from the second board and so am there to buy Something with a little more excess.

I looked through everything and the wide board (3.25 lbs) looked the best but … $112

I pulled out the print of my CNC file and he said he would look in the back. He pulled out two pieces (all I need is 9” x 2”) that were much better and I went with the 2 lb hunk for $60


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)




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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

OK, the thin board is shot. There is a slim chance that the long board can actually produce 2 units, if I don’t f*#% it up — the margins are so slim, I am in uncharted waters; prayers and …

Another board, are the answer.

so the thick boy is just over 1” thick and whatever surprises it may be hiding shouldn’t be able to affect me (I hope). However, knowing I can return it is GOLD (of course, they’ll probably weigh it upon return, so there is incentive to remove as little as possible to discover cracks and rot).

Of course, I just couldn’t let the failure of the first board stand in my way. Talked to my friend Paul down the street (who was out in his driveway planing some Bubinga) and now I am more determined than ever to use the Ebony for this part (he approved, and told me to stick with it).

So, we persist. Plan modified slightly, a new [humbled] head going in, and a little more focus and drive. Let’s see if we can’t make something beautiful.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

good luck😇


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I ended up returning the middle board. It jus didn’t leave me enough wiggle room — which I know now to be paramount to success.

so they helped me find this gem


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

The hope is that I now have a better understanding of wood selection when it comes to wax-dipped Gaboon Ebony


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

When they sell by the pound..does that include the weight of all that wax?


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

That’s a REALLY good question!


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

bandit571 said:


> When they sell by the pound..does that include the weight of all that wax?


ill bet it does.just like buying meat,you pay for the bones.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

dev if you think ebony is pricey check out snakewood and see if you dont have a heart attack !i used some to make the handle on one of the swap knives i made.it's from a piece i bought about 20 years ago.11/16" x 1-11/16" x 22" 100.00 probably would be 200 + today. ive seen some larger loads,and these are not huge by any means go for over 1k +.you wont find snakewood boards very wide or long.i just hope my recipient appreciates it.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

so, 8 people in less than 5 minutes gave a thumbs down … am I doing anything wrong here?









Scraping Gaboon Ebony Wood







youtube.com


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

DevinT said:


> so, 8 people in less than 5 minutes gave a thumbs down … am I doing anything wrong here?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


dev i dont look at what people on you tube or facebook say because it's all bull******************** people giving bull******************** responses ! if you want real opinions talk to your "real" friends girl.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

pottz said:


> dev i dont look at what people on you tube or facebook say because it's all bull******************** people giving bull******************** responses ! if you want real opinions talk to your "real" friends girl.


thank you bandit !


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Thanks pottz and bandit


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I took 1 day off. Then I took 1 day to sharpen the cambered iron on the No 6 -- my workhorse (again many thanks to @northwoodsman)

I had been afraid of sharpening the cambered iron because I had never done it. I was hoping I could buy expensive equipment before I needed to sharpen it, but it was just refusing to cut the Gaboon anymore and rather than go Goblin-mode, I decided to stop and sharpen.

The blade was heavily cambered, so I needed a strategy. First I tried the Wood by Wright method and upon close inspection, was producing way too many facets when attempted against diamond plate. So I grabbed the Veritas side-clamping jig.

Unlike PM-V11, I was actually able to get somewhere FAST with my diamond plates. It actually has me questioning PM-V11 altogether because if you are going to have to sharpen, and practice makes improvement, why buy an expensive hardened steel that makes you suffer to get the same results?

There appeared to be a hollow grind on the cambered blade when I started and that actually was a very good thing -- I actually like that _very_ much. There were some chips (guess I hit something) that needed grinding out but I didn't have to do anything more than an hour's worth of work going back and forth between 1000 and 16000 and occasionally flipping to eliminate the burr. I will admit though that I tested the sharpness about 30 times which is how I knew when to stop -- if it can shave hairs, it can shave Ebony (this proved to be true).

Peeking ahead in time, the sharpening technique worked very well.

ASIDE: I have a kid now, so it took 2 days to do get 2 hours of shop time.

I was able to sharpen the cambered No 6 iron within 1 hour on one day with flat stones and a side-clamping angle jig by using the Matt Estlea technique of applying pressure to points A, B, C, D ... for N strokes to make sure the "stone" hits all the edges of the cambered blade. It worked like magic. Not only did it get to hair-shaving sharp, but in record time (which I also partly attribute to the softer steel of the original Type-11 blade ... which I really love now because of the ease of maintenance over PM-V11).

So, the day after I got the blade hair-shaving sharp, I looked at my mirror polished secondary bevel and then looked at my cap iron. The cap iron was in a sad state.

It took me 30 minutes at 300 grit on the diamond plate to get grind marks edge-to-edge and then fixup the negative-angle bevel at 300, then 1000, then 16000. I worked the hump of the cap iron to 1000 and did use the 16000 for bur removal which left a good portion of it mirror polished but some of it still at 1000 grit scratch pattern (which is still pretty damn shiny over 300).

The technique that I used for fixing up the cap iron I learned from the English Woodworker. Nobody else online nor anyone that I have read has ever talked about the technique for that except him -- and his technique works wonderfully. Shavings just shoot out of the mouth into nice curls.

So after an hour total of working the cap iron, we were back in business but I didn't find time to return to the Ebony until today.

So far what has been working for me is ...

1. Say no to the sharp but inadequate No 3, 4, 5, 7, and 8 in my arsenal
2. Make the No 6 sharp
3. Use the No 6 for everything

Something about this No 6 ... I think @northwoodsman enchanted it like it were Excalibur or something. It came sharp, it has never produced tearout, after sharpening it continues to perform, it is easy to sharpen, the mouth came set perfect, and if it were not for this plane, I don't know what state the project would be in right now.

I kinda think this corrugated sole might have something to it.

Hear me out ...

I've heard that the grooves help with resinous woods but that is often said in the same breath as "like pine" -- but I think it's more like woods such as Rosewood and Ebony.

It almost bit me ...

The winding sticks told me I was straight. I took it over to the surface plate, and it started to rock and I was super confused. I wiped everything down and all was flat. I then took it back over to the bench and put the winding sticks back on, and now THEY said that it was not straight. Look, and more resin. The stuff is everywhere and even wiping with leather gloves doesn't get it all off.

It can't be a coincidence that with these woods every time I grab the No 6, I get a flat surface, and if I grab the 5, 7, or 8, things start getting squirrely. I mean that it will get stuck to the board, even with wax, in the middle of the push with the 8 it will get so sucked into the board that you can't hardly push it anymore (and it isn't even cutting yet because you're still trying to descend the blade while pushing the plane). With the No 5, you'll clear the mouth, it won't cut, you'll check and the mouth is clean, it still won't cut, you'll wipe down the board and it will cut. With the No 6, none of that happens. I aim, fire, and up comes a shaving. It ... just ... works. Shaving after shaving.

OK, so we ave a reference face on our oversized Ebony block which is right-sized in every way. I wish it had a little more character (the dealers kind of looked at me like I was insane when I brought back that long board which had 3 inches of checking on one end because it had a gorgeous stripe down the center and I had planed it glass smooth on 2 sides ... heh, but little do they know that I left a taper in it ... but that probably doesn't matter one lick to a luthier using it for a guitar head stock -- thing was gorgeous the way I left it but wasn't suitable for my needs).

Voila ... back to a good place and hoping to stay there through careful careful careful progression for the next 3 steps on this piece.

From card scraper to minor (pre-sharp) planing with No 6 -- stopped shortly after to get sharp again (which took 2 days -- but only 2 hours of work):










Not sure if you can tell from the photo, but the card scraper has left tiny gouges across the entire surface and uneven facets with some machine marks still left from the mill that it couldn't get out (from my limited experience, this seems to be par for Gaboon Ebony)










But the No 6 made short work. Less than 1 hour of work (which includes eye-balling winding sticks and testing against surface plate).

Sharp tools and experience make the work fun -- at one point, I tested it for 5 minutes with a straight edge from all angles building a picture in my head, picked up the hand plane, took one swipe, removing a single shaving from the center of the board, put the straight edge back on and the hump was eliminated and it was flat in all directions from just that one swipe. Oh, the years of frustration it has taken to get to this point where that is possible ... but oh is it so satisfying. Glad I filmed it so I can relive it (haven't posted it yet).


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## DavePolaschek (Oct 21, 2016)

Yeah. PMV-11 is neat in block planes where I sharpen them roughly every Christmas, but for things I sharpen regularly, give me O-1.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

My neighbor down the street, Paul, he uses A2 in his LN's


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I am curious to try an A2 (or D2) blade


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## DavePolaschek (Oct 21, 2016)

I’ve been happier with O-1 over A-2. I feel as though I can get a better edge with O-1. A2 lasts better, but if I’m after longer wear, I just jump to PMV-11. A2 kinda hits a middle ground of not excellent either way for me.


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## DavePolaschek (Oct 21, 2016)

There are plenty of comparisons between the different types of tool steel. Here’s one.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

So I know what I am starting with, what would you categorize the old Type-11 Stanley irons as? O-1?


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## DavePolaschek (Oct 21, 2016)

I suspect most of the older tool steel is more like O-1, but there are always variations (in other words, I don’t *know*). I do *know* that new Hock blades are O-1, and I *know* I can pick my alloy when buying blades from Veritas, so my in-shop use comparisons on those, and for older blades where I’m not sure of the metal, I don’t worry about comparing them, and just try to get the best edge I can. There are only a few where I’ve had to resort to changing the bevel angle because the metal won’t support a thinner bevel for whatever reason, and most of those I have replaced with new Hock blades.

The Sargent transitional that I’ve been using a lot lately had a blade that was thin enough that it was chattering, so I replaced it with a Hock blade, which resolved that problem. Still not sure (and don’t really care) what metal it was. I may reuse the blade in a new plane I make, but when I do, I’ll be prepared to toss it if I can’t anneal it and oil-harden it without issues.

The other thing I’m doing is replacing my Gage plane blades with newly-made blades of O-1 (both to get thicker blades, and to get full length rather than ones that are nearly sharpened to the point they can no longer be used). Once that process is done and those planes are tuned up, I’ll have users I can be happy with. And I’m learning more about the metals as I go. Even buying from McMaster-Carr, the steel cost was less than $20 per blade, plus I’ve got offcuts for making other tools.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

One note here: I have yet to need to buy any new "Improved" irons for my planes. All are still using their OEM irons.

2)....Have never had an issue with chattering......mainly because of the way I usually set a plane up. ( vintage planes have a small ramp/bed at the back of the mouth..to SUPPORT the iron) 
3) L. Bailey went with the thinner iron to make them easier for their users to sharpen...he then improved the chipbreaker to add stiffness to the iron....making it act like the thicker iron in use at the time ( around 1860s?)
4) When you move the frog (Why?) to close up the mouth of a plane...you are also taking away the support for the iron where it comes out of the mouth...and THAT is the cause of most "Chattering" ...

5) Older irons were sometimes made as a laminate. And some have been known to "de-laminate", due more to abuse, than bad steel. They were forge welded together, and too much heat when sharpened poorly, has an effect...as does trying to get things perfectly flat...making things too thin.

6) "The Riddle of Steel".....for when you get bored..


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## northwoodsman (Feb 22, 2008)

Devin, I'm glad to see you putting that old No. 6 to good use. It was a crime that it sat around on my shelf for so many years never getting used. I hope that it produces shavings for at least another 100 years in someone's skillful hands. Nice work!


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Ok, let’s have a look at where we are now. Nearly all the wood is ready


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

that wood is just gorgeous dev.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Going over my designs ... I do like to save a step where I can. I have determined that I can save yet another step.

The part that I was going to cut out of Cocobolo does not need to be -- I have enough Ebony and according to the wood database, Ebony is harder than Cocobolo anyway. Also, I think 4 different woods would get a little muddled. I am happy with the combination of Bubinga + Rosewood + Ebony + Brass + Steel + Aluminum -- 3 woods, 3 metals (don't worry, the amount of aluminum is less than the size of your pinky-toe, just some thumb nuts on threaded rod for indexing/locking purposes -- not a fan of aluminum on precision tools if the aluminum could be damaged and if said damage could impact the function of the tool ... which is not the case here).

So now things are solidified and now the Shaper Origin can come out.

However, the Shaper will not be working on the wood initially ... but rather, there is a little more preamble to the main show. Two side-attractions need attention first:

1. Medallions

I've designed a new medallion for my work. It promises to be easier to produce, give more consistent results, be more long-lived than the one on my CAB40 hand plane, and I should be able to just crank them out and add them to any piece of work.

It's made out of 1/4-inch thick acrylic, and I engrave a mirror image of the company logo on one side, fill that with paint, let it dry, and then inlay it into whatever I want. The lettering will stand out as-if it was cast lettering above the wood, and you will be able to see the wood through the acrylic (which means that I will have to pocket, finish, then glue the inlay in. I am planning on using Crystal Clear 2-hour Gorilla glue to cement the acrylic medallion into the pocket because (a) just dry-fitting it with a friction fit might be good to get it in and stay in but if the tool is dropped or knocked in a certain way the medallion may pop out, so a glue is preferred to prevent that and (b) from my experience it dries against acrylic crystal clear.

I want to run a test first though because I am concerned about what the edges of the acrylic might look like -- whether it is worth polishing the edges of the medallion first and if I do decide to do-so, will that effect my ability to accurately inlay it and how much gap should I leave for the glue as well as should I have a chamfer from the surface to a sunk medallion or should I leave the medallion flush?

2. Shim Stock Skate

The Vaughan BS250D double edged Bear Saw (cough, a regular Ryoba style saw) has a blade thickness of 0.020"

That's right, 20-thousandths of an inch.

But, damnit, I want a fence that has a skate that ride in a previously-cut kerf so I can generate evenly-spaced kerfs (for whatever reason, not just kerf bending).

How you gonna get a skate to fit inside a 20-thou-ish kerf and still be stable?

I took a sheet of the below stuff which I had on-hand (which I use for to shim my router fence for jointing on the router table) and it fits in the kerf very nicely. Can easily move back and forth within the kerf.









Amazon.com: 1008 Steel Sheet, Full Hard Temper, ASTM A109, 0.015" Thick, 6" Width, 25" Length, Pack of 2 : Industrial & Scientific


Amazon.com: 1008 Steel Sheet, Full Hard Temper, ASTM A109, 0.015" Thick, 6" Width, 25" Length, Pack of 2 : Industrial & Scientific



smile.amazon.com





So the plan is to attach a 17" long, 3/8" tall cut of this stuff with about 1/8" of it exposed as a skate. Of course, the stuff is too thin to be counter-sunk for screws to attach it, and rather than put it in between two pieces of something (which would reduce the minimum distance one can space the kerfs from each other), I'm just going to glue the top-1/4" of the 17" long skate a precision-depth open-ended pocket (0.015" deep) on the end of the auxiliary fence.

So ... the Shaper Origin first has to prove that it can cut the desired shape out of the above material.

Seller claims it is low carbon steel (8-10% carbon content).

Should be a piece of cake to cut out the fence in one single pass using my 90-degree V-groove Amana AlTiN coated router bit (actually, if we're being honest, the bit probably won't even break a sweat ... I would probably have to cut 100 skates from this stuff before the bit started showing any where whatsoever).

What I will be looking for is the best way to cut the part with minimal issues -- not-so-much that it can be cut. It's a skate and it needs to stay straight and true, and sometimes the Shaper Origin has problems cutting really long things. I need to make sure that I can produce the 17 x 3/8 x 0.015 skate with at least one true long-edge.

Any minor deviation of the Shaper Origin won't ruin the project ... it will just mean more benchwork. I am fine with benchwork (metal and wood), as a little hard work never hurt anyone. I just want to get an accurate estimate to the effort is all -- it's an unknown and I don't like unknowns. I often strive to answer the unknowns before I embark on the doldrums. Cutting the thing out and putting it together will be exciting because it will come to life, but everything there is already known.


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## Ark68SS (Oct 1, 2021)

You could take it to a sheet metal shop and have it cut with a shear. Quick, accurate, and less chance of anything warping/bending because of cutting heat. JMHO
BillL


DevinT said:


> Going over my designs ... I do like to save a step where I can. I have determined that I can save yet another step.
> 
> What I will be looking for is the best way to cut the part with minimal issues --


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Hmm, a shear, huh? Had not thought about that.

there are several machine shops on my street of residence (I live in an industrial zone; I buy my lumber 300m from my house, have a steel forge down the street, CNC lathe shopon the next street over, and about 12 more industrial metal, wood, and machine shops within a stone’s throw. Surely one of them ought to have a shear.

That being said, my machinist’s benchwork book actually describes yet another technique by hand wherein you clamp the stock in a machinist’s vise (check; I have one of those on my bench), and then take a cold chisel at the proper angle, work laterally across the top of the vise shearing along the line.

A good quality cold chisel (made by Porto; a modern rendition with shock absorbing grip) is in my Amazon shopping cart and I have studied how to sharpen them and at what proper angles for dividing steel. They aren’t that expensive actually, at $45, considering what they do (with the proper use, they are chisels for steel, plain and simple; they produce curls just like chisels for wood, but in steel; albeit with a fair amount more force required).

But, here is why I chose to use the Shaper Origin instead …

The CNC files will be given away for free. If I can prove that the Shaper Origin can cut this piece then that means something …

The plans for this tool can be 100% CNC because mounting the skate, the pocket to house it will have an interior fillet left by the router bit — necessitating that either those fillets be removed or that the corners of the skate get rounded to fit inside the fillet.

Option A would be to leave the fillet and just bake the matching rounder corner into the skate CNC (this is the route I chose and will be testing — I have 99.9% confidence nothing will go wrong).

Option B would be to require additional steps to try and eliminate the fillet or adding a potentially unsightly dog-boned corner if the skate was just a sheared shim stock with sharp corners.

I guess an unconsidered option C would be to somehow round the corners after taking it to the machine shop to have it sheared but …

In my limited time on this Earth (slight sarcasm), I have determined that shops generally don’t like the extra work required to hit requests within the tolerances I prefer which often leads me to doing it myself (see endeavor to learn cold chisel usage by educating myself on basic benchwork for machinists).

My luck, I’d tell them 3/8” and walk out dissatisfied. Not because the shop can’t obtain it but they often won’t obtain it for a walk-in customer they may never see again (which is often why I like to strike up a conversation and get to know the shop owners first; like I have with my local wood dealer which bends over backward to get me amazing lumber).

Will definitely revisit other ideas if my AlTiN but can’t cut it (heh, pun intended).

However, I have my doubts as to what exactly “ASTM Full Hard Temper” exactly means here for this shim stock. It’s low carbon steel (8-10% carbon); how hard could a “full hard temper” actually be? All I know is that the shim stock is plenty sturdy for what I need it for, so we’re going to give it a shot.

This will be …

/me thinks

Only the third time that I have cut steel with the Shaper Origin. Both previous times involved pocketing out several ounces of steel from bar stock and sheet stock. As I’ve said before this will likely be a cake walk.


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

I don't know if the design allow this but if you can make a 90° bend along the steel plate it would make it more rigid (and maybe provide other fixing opportunity).


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Wouldn’t bending leave a fillet in the inside angle of the steel, preventing it from sitting flush? I notice that most of the steel angle iron I buy has a similar fillet on the inside angle (in other words, the inside angle is not a clear 90).

What would be the prescribed approach to handle such an issue? Precision grind the steel or bake an inverse fillet or chamfer into the mating part?


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

ASIDE: the increase in rigidity sounds good. I bet I could fashion a brake if I could answer the question of whether a fillet would form and what to do about it — put it in the machinists vise and peen it?


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

So we can get a visual on what we are talking about ...










The skate attaches to the 3/8" thick Honduran Rosewood attached to the bottom of the tool by way of 1/4"-20 socket cap screw in a counter-bored hole met with a threaded insert in the Gaboon Ebony riding on the 1/2" brass rods driven by the 1/4"-20 threaded rod.

It just occurred to me that the advice above to bend the skate could be incorporated without glue but instead screws if I rabbeted a ledge for the bent skate (to bring the screws out of the way).

In other words ...


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I mean, maybe I am missing something. Maybe the supposition is that we have a clamping block to sandwich the bent skate in the rabbet on two threaded rods. That still leaves the issue of the fact that unfixed to the long grain, the weak point is the bend (doubly-so because it has had an initial bend). I am just not sure how the bend would make it more rigid especially considering the way the forces are going to act on the skate.

it was a good thought exercise but my brain just isn’t able to comprehend a way to attach a bent skate that improves rigidity over a 3/8” sheet cemented to long grain over 1/4” along its entire length (leaving 1/8” tall edge exposed).


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I want to take a moment to draw attention to something that I did in the design ...










Let's zoom on that front view which I exploded and did something ...










If I remove the Ebony bushing Fromm the rosewood and then flip it over, we can re-attach it to the fence.










That's because a half-inch away from the screw holes are two identical screw holes cut and counter-bored from the other side (and yes, this means you shift the fence forward an inch when connecting it from the other side).

What is this for, you ask?

Well, the flat fence (3/8" thick rosewood) that sits between the main fence (3/4" thick ebony straddling brass rods) and the molded fence (1-1/2" thick Bubinga shaped like crown molding with 1/8" brass rod inlays) has an exposed skate (that is covered when the molded fence is attached to its bottom).

Removing the molded fence exposes the skate for riding in a kerf.

But, what if you simply want to clamp a guide to a board and make a cut (e.g., miter or cross) with the rosewood fence riding against the guide? Well, you can't because the skate.

My answer is to allow the rosewood to be flipped over and re-attached so the skate points up.

The thing I love about this approach is that the steel is actually acting as a wear plate whenever not acting as a skate.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Anything shaking, out your way?


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Yeah, at 11:42A it felt reminiscent of yester-decade. Where I am at, it felt like a gentle 2-point-something, though co-workers tell me it was a 5-point-something at the epi-center. Lived my whole life out here, so just another day -- but it was good 5 seconds of excitement there until I realized that was all it had to offer.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Hey, look at what is on my bench …


















The Shaper Origin is HUNGRY!

It’s been a long time since this bench has seen it. Of course, this project is so big that my old spoilboard just won’t do.

Pulled out some new 3/4” MDF from a previous project that needs to be cut down to about 20” wide and have the old Shaper Tape removed then attached to the ol’ MFT top


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

ASIDE: I could do the medallions first, as described earlier, but I am more interested in cutting the steel shim stock into a skate first. Do the hard stuff first and the easy stuff will folllow.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

DevinT said:


> Hey, look at what is on my bench …
> 
> View attachment 3857989
> 
> ...


cool ..........hell im clueless dev


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

It means I am setting up for CNC work.

I cut that big piece of MDF in half and now I have a fresh spoilboard.

here is the steel for the skate, mounted on the workstation but not yet secured. The stock is so thin that I have to indicate it into the Shaper Origin using the tiny amount of overhang Instead of maddeningly trying to indicate off .015” between the spoilboard and surface of the steel.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Nothing like a little cold rolled for breakfast, eh? Can’t wait!


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Will pull fresh stock on cut day. Also, a picture of the bit that allows Origin to make the cut


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

looking at the attachment in your comment #779,
I would make a shallow rabett on top of the olive colour piece instead of below? keeping as much thickness as possible.
The bent would only add rigidity lengthwise.
Adding rigidity laterally could be achieved by making straight dents perpendicular to the arris of the bent.
Don't know if it is easily feasible without obtaining unwanted deformation.
see this bracket to see what I mean.
You would have to allow spaces in the wood for this.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Sylvain said:


> looking at the attachment in your comment #779,
> I would make a shallow rabett on top of the olive colour piece instead of below? keeping as much thickness as possible.
> The bent would only add rigidity lengthwise.
> Adding rigidity laterally could be achieved by making straight dents perpendicular to the arris of the bent.
> ...


very interesting. The image does help. Let me ponder this for a bit


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Force on the skate is going to be either one of:

A. Left/Right

or (only if the skate is allowed to bottom-out in the kerf it is riding — which would be inadvisable because the plane would be tippy if the sole cannot ride on the surface to cut)

B. Left/Right/Up

There should never be — barring an accident — any substantial force applied forward nor aft.

That being said, the rigidity lended to the bracket you linked-to, by way of the deformation and bend, is such for construction needs where the forces are actually quite different, but let’s set that aside for a moment.

That bent fixture is for attachment with physical fasteners and when we are talking about using physical fasteners to attach a 0.015” thin sheet to (the kicker) 3/8” wood (another kicker) that has to slide under the sole of the plane (now meaning you have to counter-sink or counter-bore to get the head of the fastener below the sole of the plane it has to ride under), the task looks bleak.

Now, let us consider why the bend and deformation are required in the first place on that bracket. I propose it is entirely because is is to be fastened with few points using screws or nails.

if it were a fixture designed to be glued, we need only examine the forces and the glue strength.

the glue I plan to use has a PSI rating of several thousand pounds of pressure. There is no way on God’s green Earth anyone but Paul Bunyun is going to exert enough pressure to rip this thing off the wood. The wood will likely fail when he grips the handle because the modulus of rupture for Bubinga is lower than that of the glue holding the skate. Any man, woman, or child that can achieve this probably would need the entire plane to be made out of hardened steel.

That being said, glue offers 100% strength at its supposed rating along its contact, unlike physical fasteners separated by a distance. In essence when using physical fasteners, the forces on the unfastened material between fasteners must be accounted for.

this is where bends at machine brakes and deformations lend rigidity — at the areas between fasteners.

but with glue, it is like having infinite fasteners. The entire length of skate is reinforced bit I didn’t stop there.

as we will see later, I baked additional support for the skate into the wood and also accounted for an easy peasy repair system should you drop the thing or somehow damage the skate.

you should be able to just disassemble it, clamp it, and flat peen it back to shape. It can also be removed and replaced by simply ripping the end off with your saw and gluing a new wood strip on with some PVA glue then attach a new skate to the new end


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I will tell you though, I have a fear that is probably not rational …

I fear that cutting this shim stock with the 90-degree V-groove will leave a 45-degree knife edge that I will potentially have to stone off to prevent the thing from becoming a danger to fingers


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

This is such a complex project, I am going to have to parcel it out into achievable bits.

So what I am doing, is I am generating groupings of related setups on the same part.

Also, I am combining parts into stock whenever possible to save in setup time and initial processing. The whole thing can be cut from just 4 pieces of lumber (based on their thicknesses -- 1-1/2", 1-1/4", 3/4", and 3/8" -- that's all the lumber you need).

Here is my finalization of the fence which includes everything I need:

The SVG's that get sent to shaper, guides for where everything is in every diagram regardless of whether it is being cut during that setup, notes on diameters, and notes on depths. Not to mention, cut-tallies, and tool suggestions.

Is it a lot of work to do this? You bet! But ...

Should I need to tweak something, it's an easy process without getting mired in the other details. When you're talking about a project with over a dozen setups and hundreds of steps (and if you count step-overs, potentially 1,000 cuts or more), you got to stay organized.

You also have to be diligent. You can't possibly check all the things in one day. You have to check what you can, rubber stamp it, and then re-check it the next day, and the next, and the next. Only when no issues can be found is it ready to ship, and only then will it be cut (the part; not the whole project -- parts that have been finalized can be cut ahead of others AS LONG AS that part cannot be changed by influence from a later part; which is why we can start work on the skate because nothing is going to change the shape of the skate at this point).

'









Of course, since it is an SVG, you can zoom ...


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

This is what it should look like before you send it to your Shaper Origin (via USB or WiFi or "the Hub")

Shaper will refuse to cut (without intervention) anything that is blue (regardless of opacity).

So when you look at this, the first setup is the only one that defines the outside shape for a cut. Subsequent setups (which have to be anchored onto the real object in real life at the point designated by the lower-left-hand corner of the triangle -- as shown; also noting that the anchor on the first setup is not needed unless you have to re-indicate the part into the CNC) define the outline as a blue shape to prevent you from accidentally plunging where you shouldn't.

Next, anything that is black is an "outside cut" (meaning the router bit travels outside the black shape)

Now a white shape, that's an "inside cut" (meaning the router bit travels inside the white shape)

If it's not a shape but instead a line, the color doesn't matter (as long as it isn't blue -- which is considered a guide and un-cuttable), the router bit travels down the line (Shaper Origin also ignores whatever opacity you set for the stroke and ignores the stroke width; the only thing that matters is the center of the line, which is where it sends the center of the router bit).

With all that explained, we are in a good position to understand what is in this drawing and how the Shaper will interpret it. The notes on the side should be immediately translatable into the image (for example, setup 2 has 3 cuts; those are the 3 white circles with their diameters and depths-of-cut labeled; note that step-over changes based on material and person driving the machine, so I only put the final DoC).

Though to see strokes-vs-shapes, I will then post "Outline view" which drops all the colors and makes it easy to see which cuts will be "on line"

Also note that in setup 2, the 1/2" circles are not white circles, they are absence of material from setup 1 because I told Inkscape to "subtract" the 1/2" circles from the fence (so there literally is no circle there to confuse the Shaper; spelled-out in the third image below)

ASIDE: And yes, as you will see in the 3rd image below, that I am absolutely that crazy person that makes sure that the shapes are defined with minimal points. I have learned that the Shaper Origin is a dutiful soldier that will follow exactly what you tell it and if you send it something where a curve is defined as a million-bajillion stupid points instead of a bezier curve between two points, you're going to get horrible horrible edges that require a ton of sanding (wherein you risk blowing out the curve)


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Oh, and to help with my end-run validations, I decided the best thing to do would be to not-only list the stock-size but the expected out-comes for each part from the multi-fixture setup run.

That way, before, during, and after, I can just send the outline schematics to my printer, sit down, and have a nice quiet moment with my calipers to verify along the way.

I am very tactile in that way that as we progress to the physical object in the engineering path, that I like to completely divorce myself from the computer. If anything needs to be updated in the designs it will be off the notes that I make on paper while analyzing the parts and performing dry-fits on the bench.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Hah! Caught an error just now -- that's supposed to say 1/8" core box, not 1/4


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Yes, I think that's the final format -- now I have to do this same kind of formatting for the body and 2 auxiliary fences.

In other words, re-arrange the rest of this giant canvas to group the other elements together like I grouped those parts.

Oh, and for a treet, check out the WHOLE CANVAS IN OUTLINE VIEW -- crazy, huh?


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

I hear what you say about the quality of the glue.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

As I was mach-assembling this thing in my mind (something I do when it gets closer to starting my cuts -- the point of no return, in essence), some of Dad's advice from over 30 years ago came screaming back to me, seemingly from nowhere.

"Flat washer, split washer. Tighten, back-off quarter-turn"

(a man of many words but often very succinct words)

What's the context, you ask?









10 Tricks Engineers Need to Know About Fasteners


You’d expect an engineer to know everything about a basic subject like nuts and bolts right? Well fasteners are one of those topics that seem simple at first but turn out to have much more depth th…




engineerdog.com





Apparently, unbeknownst to me, split lock washers have become debatable? In the house I grew up in, in Dad's garage, this was never up for debate.

There would be a few reasons to want to use a split washer but usually to keep the screw from backing-out; though you can also use it to prevent a dummy from over-torquing a screw (you start to feel resistance leading up to a positive stop).

Threaded-insert + Screw alone is very dissatisfying for many reasons to mate wooden parts, and here is why (and you can confirm this in the shop with your fingers -- I did just now, to confirm the age-old wisdom Dad had passed from his Dad).

Take a threaded-insert in your hands (I'm using 1/4"-20) and pop a screw in it. Seat it. Now, if that screw turns back (use your fingers to test) any fraction of an inch it is now unlocked and free-floating and rotates freely.

Now, if you don't care about the surface of that threaded insert, perform this next test (but if it is shiny and you don't want it scratched, don't -- skip to the last test)

Next take the threaded insert, pop a split washer over the screw before seating it. The screw can now be turned back slightly and is still not free floating. Also, the split ring probably scratched the face of the threaded insert -- not good for a part that will be permanently attached to the wood project and cannot be replaced -- Dad always liked to keep things that could get scratched protected with flat washers because he can replace them).

Next, slip a flat washer on that screw after slipping the split washer over it.

Hey, the permanently-attached threaded insert stays nice looking.

Also Hey, the screw doesn't get loosey-goosey the moment it turns back a micro-fraction of an inch (because the screw head mates against the threaded insert).

That's a win-win right there.

BUT MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL ... DAD said ... (and he said this was crucial)

The split ring provides resistance as you are driving the screw in plus a positive stop, which after you reach said stop, back out the screw a quarter-turn. In order for the split washer to work, it must not be made-flat. If you make it flat, then it has no function and you might as well not use it. The proper installation is to keep it stressed but not strained to the point of eventual deformation while also the tool cannot do its job if it is fully compressed and the screw will back out sooner than without the washer.

My Dad, his Dad, and his Father's father (my great grandfather) all worked for the railroad.

Of course, adding a flat washer does more than just protect the surface of things, it distributes the load. It's nice to read comments (at the above link) that mirror that sentiment (such as below):










Reading that, it triggered a memory of when Dad taught me that.

However, the most mileage came from this comment:










Yup, Dad gave advice on this too, but he was far more forceful and matter-of-fact about basically if the split washer is flat, it means two things: someone was an idiot and it either requires backing the fastener off a quarter-turn or (if enough time has passed) replacing it -- emphasizing that in either case, the situation was precipitated by someone misunderstanding the function of the split washer.

It is funny to me to, after all these decades, find things that my Dad taught me that have held their wisdom all of a sudden becoming debated and somehow being "debunked" as hokum when the tests are not even being performed properly nor are the old-timers actually being consulted.

I knew when I was designing this thing that split washers are NOT designed to be flat when used, but this conventional logic seems to have been lost on most people.

I actually left room for the lock washers. Though I just remembered today that I should probably back those up with some flat washers to distribute the load and prevent the threaded inserts or wood (despite being in a counter-bore) from getting marred by the tip of the split washer.

Not trying to start anything -- I am going to use what I was taught. I also tend to over-engineer things so will use a 1" flat washer with 1/2" split washer over a 1/4"-20 socket cap button head -- I don't know ... in case the user gets angry and throws it across the room at someone I'd like the tool to survive)


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

In fact, the famed and oft-discussed (and even mentioned above, but not by name) Nord-Lock washer ("not going to buy a bunch of exotic double washers") pride themselves in their marketing materials as basing their design off ...

(their emphasis) GEOMETRY (end emphasis)

Their marketing (jump to 3:18 for "Geometry"):






Well ...

Guess what?

NOT tightening down a split washer all the way achieves the same geometric effect; albeit just not as fancy as a Nord-Lock washer.

In my opinion, the Nord-Lock double-washer system takes the guess-work out of achieving the right geometric effect, that is, unless, ...

You know that split washers were designed specifically to be backed-up a quarter-turn of the bolt to achieve the right height for generating the angle steeper than the pitch of the screw thread.

Amazing, huh? How they came up with a simpler system that was still free of guess-work, and hey, only needed one washer and was easier to make and cheaper to manufacture in every way (well, to be honest, that's a presumption; I don't know what Nord-Lock unit costs are).

I will give Nord-Lock washers some benefit here though that while the geometric benefit of an unflattened split washer and their double-washer system strikes at the same applied-physics, the Nord-Lock has more points of contact, hands-down, which is also the principal behind a self-locking flange bolt (it has the same serrations and at steeper angles than the thread pitch).

As someone wise has probably said in the past ...

The right tool in the wrong hands is potentially 100% ineffective.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Has anyone tried the old "Star Lock Washers"?


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I presume you mean these






Dad taught me that those are specifically made to go into the thread and what happens is that since thread has a pitch, individual sections of the washer will raise and lower to match the thread pitch


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

It seems like a SOLID principle. I would be surprised if it backed out considering the way, upon tightening, the sections should grab tight assuming the proper size is used (which I imagine to be a range, not a specific size)


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

The ones I know about have the "points" to the outside.....look almost like the wheel on a set of Cowboy's spurs.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Ah, I know those as toothed lock washers. They work best on metal-to-metal and in this particular application (NOT saying that you suggested them for this application) I would not use them because:

1. The teeth (which should bite in) will bite into the wood unless we use a flat washer
2. But the flat washer itself has a smooth-ish surface on the underside (away from the lock washer) which will itself potentially be subject to rotation

Of course, the fix for that is to use a big flat washer. For example, if the OD on your lock washer is 1/2", use a flat washer that is 3/4" or 1" which performs a trade-off increasing friction on the side where it meets the wood and providing strong material for the toothed lock washer to bite into -- material that will not easily give-way like wood would.

And to be quite honest, I plan on using 1" flat washers so I absolutely could use a toothed lock washer. Also worth mentioning, I might actually use one instead of the split washer here if I need the additional thinness.

The button-head on my screw plus the split lock washer fully compressed then backed-out a quarter-turn consistently and reliably gets me between 0.215 and 0.220 as the distance from flat-washer to top of screw.

ASIDE: According to pundits that like to talk about how "amazing" it is that old-timers could achieve 1% deviance on pre-load when rookies were unable to get even a 10% deviance (average rookie getting about 30% -- giving the rest of us people that do things by hand a bad rap). I tested 40 times in a row and ... seat + quarter-turn back is extremely reliable. I don't need no stinkin' torque tool to test my screws' preload, but I have one, and it's generally a waste of time other than to prove to myself that Dad's techniques work.

I'm still running my calipers over things to make sure the parts I have chosen are good. Will let you know.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

That's it. Nobody is allowed in my garage ever again.

I just spent 6 hours tearing my house apart looking for my 1/8"-3/4" (3mm-19mm) ORX Plus 90-degree counter-sink bit.









ORXPLUS Tools 5 Flute Metal Countersink Drill Bit, 90 Degree Quick Release Shank Fits for 1/8"-3/4"(3mm-19mm) - - Amazon.com


ORXPLUS Tools 5 Flute Metal Countersink Drill Bit, 90 Degree Quick Release Shank Fits for 1/8"-3/4"(3mm-19mm) - - Amazon.com



smile.amazon.com





I am upset, as I am pretty sure that my neighbor stole it. Why? Because he asked me what it was and I showed it to him, and I haven't seen it since.

Just going to replace it unless anyone has a better one they'd like to suggest.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

DevinT said:


> That's it. Nobody is allowed in my garage ever again.
> 
> I just spent 6 hours tearing my house apart looking for my 1/8"-3/4" (3mm-19mm) ORX Plus 90-degree counter-sink bit.
> 
> ...


bastard........you got a gun ? oh hell give me his address,ill get it back for ya


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

The spouse points out that I thought the same thing when I misplaced my trusty tape measure.

I explained that this was different -- the bit lives with its other bits and has done so for many years. It's unlikely that I would have placed it anywhere else, possible, yes, but unlikely. I have torn the house apart looking for an $18 bit.

Looked over what Amazon had to offer and couldn't find anything better. So I'm probably just going to replace it with an identical one.

...

Checks eBay real quick just to make sure there isn't some golden nugget out there to turn this crap-tastic day into a better one.

EDIT: eBay offerings are worse


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Hmmm, I just had a thought — getting some counter sink bits for my brace. Now that seems like it ought to be fun. You know, because when you’re counter-sinking steel low speed and lots of down force cuts fast.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

DevinT said:


> I presume you mean these
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was wrong, those go over rod stock


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Spouse knows me well. Ordered a replacement counter-sink for me yesterday and it arrives tomorrow at 10P.

I am satisfied after talking to the neighbor that they should not be inculcated in its disappearance. Starting to think it fell behind something.

It's just really tough when you go to use something and you can't find it. This is of course the reasoning behind why Dad has a place for everything and everything in its place (a philosophy I also follow).

I can at least relax and focus on other things knowing that a new counter-sink will be here tomorrow.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

As an aside, while researching potential upgrade during replacement, I did learn that six flutes appears to be the gold standard these days. The six flute are considered “chatterless” but … I have yet to find one that is hex shank. Hex shank is attractive to me because it fits in many more things over tri-flat and round shank (thlayter two having problems in 2-jaw chucks, namely slipping on the last).

There appear to be some high-end ones too, but they are triple the cost of a five-flute hex shank, and again, no hex shank, all round.

but hey, I feel compelled to once again call B.S. on a market (the first being that I supposedly need Nord-Lock washers to effectively stop bolt slippage).

browsing eBay, what did I find?

SEVEN flute counter sinks for hand braces. And they are made stout enough to handle a huge range of holes so you don’t need 5 different sizes. How much you want to bet that it is also “chatterless”

once again, old tools better than modern, though (just as-in NordLock) I will give one quick nod to modern with the alloys.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Saturday, the replacement counter-sink bit came.

However, what happened was ...

The baby went down around 11A, so that's when I got my shop time. Didn't have the counter-sink bit for running a test (yes, I have strange "tests" -- it's not worth explaining), so I was just thinking and figured, ah, welp, I'll just grab the 1/2" 60-degree twist brace bit and use that to counter-sink the danged hole.

Well, it worked beautifully. ASIDE: This is the 60-degree brace bit I bought on eBay that came rusted which I then sharpened and polished on my belt grinder (it's my new baby; it only gets pulled out when I'm _serious_).

FULL DISCLOSURE: I am in the middle of a fastener-bake-off right now. The parameters of which are 1/4"-20 thread, Alan head, and the variable we are attempting to determine is the class of bolt within said parameters exhibiting the lowest head height in thousandths-of-an-inch. We started off with regular socket caps but the heads are 0.250", then I moved to button head, wherein the heads are 0.125", but I am about to add to this bake-off conical flat head socket caps to see if we can't squeeze even more utility out of this horse. The reason for the fastener bake-off is to see if I can fit a fender washer (0.050" nominal thickness) into the fastener assembly along with the split washer to achieve the benefit of introducing pre-load. Tests with several kinds of washers have me continually coming back to fender washers as the best performers for my application in this fastener assembly, but there were a couple draw-backs and I believe flat head socket caps will address them).

And THEN on Sunday I found out that on FRIDAY the Shaper Origin team announced a bevy of sundries.

1. A new generation-2 of hardware for the Origin product. New stepper motors, light diffusers, an improved camera, etc. etc.

2. A system of paid-for optional extensions that can be added-on to your Shaper for a fee to do things that the base machine cannot

3. An extension that allows you to cut uninterrupted between step-overs

A lot of us have recently been inundating the Shaper Community forum talking about these announcements, as an attempt to explain my own absence (from my own forum thread here).

However ... I've the most exciting thing to share ...

I've solidified the dimensions of the skate (this is aside from the fastener shoot-out going on in-parallel).

15-thou by 418-thou by 17,325-thou ... or at least that's how my brain processes it, you probably would be more comfortable with:

0.015" x 0.418" x 17-3/8"

That's gonna be a helluva skate. Can't wait to see what it looks and feels like.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

The fastener shootout is over. For fastening the Honduran Rosewood to the Gaboon Ebony, I will be using 1/4” x 1” fender washer plus 1/4-20” x 1” flat head socket cap screws. No split washers.

The overriding decision was the centering capabilities of the conical head behind the flat head (socket cap for Alan because a good Alan key provides leverage without cam-out over a Phillips or Pozidriv (this continues to apply even if you have those funky L shaped Phillips/Pozi keys that occasionally surface in assembly kits).

If requirement to be at-flush or below-flush with the surface precludes me from using a split/lock washer and a flat head for its centering, then I will gladly just drop the lock washer over giving up centering because without centering, there will always exist a chance of shifting if knocked hard enough.

ASIDE: Ever knock your hand plane and have to adjust the blade after? Those grub screws on Veritas planes perform the same task of centering the blade to prevent that much as I am using the conical section behind that of a flat head fastener for centering of the auxiliary fence to remain parallel to the saw blade.

Tests where I repeatedly fasten and unfasten the candidate fastener assembly combination to a hunk of western red cedar with a threaded insert have told me that a fender washer and flat head are all that I need in this case.

I also, through my trials realized just how important it is for the threaded inserts to sit flush with the surface. If even 20-thousandths of an inch below the surface, what happens should the user over-torque the fastener, all the force ends up on the surface of the counter-bore and you can continually keep tightening without getting that “I can’t tighten any more” feeling, because (as was the case with thinner washers) the washer bends inward (very noticeable when using a button head or regular cap head where the head diameter was less than that of the counter-bore the mating threaded insert sat within). A fender washer has enough surface area and thickness (50-thou nominal, +/-.001) that it does not bend in even when there is a gap between the surface of the counter-bore and the washer.

mind you, these tests were performed without mating wood, it’s just testing the assembly and raw strength and reactions of the materials together to gain insights to what pressures the rosewood will be under — the shoulder will be as thick as I can make it and these flat head socket caps are looking like gold because they consistently torque down to a head height with a variance of only 0.00025” (+/- quarter-thou) which is amazing to think about the fact that you DON’T have to think about it. Tighten-and-go, guaranteed to be flush


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

What do they say?

you go to school on the first one?


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Dag nabbit… was in OSH and walking down the “expensive fastener” aisle (why?) I saw they have something called …

BLACK CHROME

OOOOooo, shiny, “soft,” scratch resistant (I tried, then put it back).

at $5 per fender washer, hm. Still thinking about it.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

DevinT said:


> Dag nabbit… was in OSH and walking down the “expensive fastener” aisle (why?) I saw they have something called …
> 
> BLACK CHROME
> 
> ...


(talking to myself) NO! Don’t you DARE! Washers, and screws are consumables. Your own fastener tests confirm this with the visible marks left to a fender washer in an over-torque test where you cranked as hard as you could pretending to be a dummy. Also, black chrome consumables would out-shine the inexpensive consumable saw blade and inexpensive non-consumable threaded inserts from China. Cough. Just walk away. I said walk away!


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

DevinT said:


> Dag nabbit… was in OSH and walking down the “expensive fastener” aisle (why?) I saw they have something called …
> 
> BLACK CHROME
> 
> ...


black chrome sounds sexy ! 5 bucks for a washer sounds maybe a little less than sexy


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Huh, I am not seeing this product online. May be an OSH specific item, dunno. It looks amazing. I might have inflated the cost, but it was at least $3 something which I presume after tax would be close to $5. I might have to go back and take some pics


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Nevermind, found. Wowzers, look at those unit prices!





__





ALBANYCOUNTYFASTENERS


Shop Albany County Fasteners Nuts, Bolts, Screws, Rivets and More! - Industrial Supplies backed by Industry Experience



www.amazon.com


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

DevinT said:


> Huh, I am not seeing this product online. May be an OSH specific item, dunno. It looks amazing. I might have inflated the cost, but it was at least $3 something which I presume after tax would be close to $5. I might have to go back and take some pics


yeah id like to see what a 3-5 dollar washer looks like. but hey it's osh and the big boxes horribly inflact small fasteners.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)




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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

pottz said:


> yeah id like to see what a 3-5 dollar washer looks like. but hey it's osh and the big boxes horribly inflact small fasteners.


I think OSH is just passing the high price they pay on to the customer. Looking online the unit prices are horrible.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

DevinT said:


> I think OSH is just passing the high price they pay on to the customer. Looking online the unit prices are horrible.


the mark up on fasteners is super high,as in jewelry store high !


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

As an aside on the topic, I have been reiterating to myself that while it would be very EASY to just epoxy in some aluminum inlay for a strong bolt shoulder that can withstand failure better than 1/8” thick wood, that aluminum would not look nice, not wear nice, and not be easily replaceable, not be easy to replicate, and the latter points also apply to steel. At every step I ask me — how will this fail? How could it be fixed? How hard is it to make a full replacement if you don’t have a Shaper Origin but at least have the old part, a jointer, thickness planer, router table, flush trim bit, and a drill press?

Meaning using the old part as a template to make a new one. Couple 1/4” holes, couple 1” counter-bores, some new washers, the same screws, and you’re off to the races. The Shaper Origin should only be required to make the first one. I want very much to have it obsolete itself in the process.

Not gluing anything to the wooden auxiliary fence and just having it as a hunk of wood with two counter-bored holes means it can be consumable itself with only the cost of the wood (I still chose to use Rosewood though because of its durability and beauty).


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

DevinT said:


> As an aside on the topic, I have been reiterating to myself that while it would be very EASY to just epoxy in some aluminum inlay for a strong bolt shoulder that can withstand failure better than 1/8” thick wood, that aluminum would not look nice, not wear nice, and not be easily replaceable, not be easy to replicate, and the latter points also apply to steel. At every step I ask me — how will this fail? How could it be fixed? How hard is it to make a full replacement if you don’t have a Shaper Origin but at least have the old part, a jointer, thickness planer, router table, flush trim bit, and a drill press?
> 
> Meaning using the old part as a template to make a new one. Couple 1/4” holes, couple 1” counter-bores, some new washers, the same screws, and you’re off to the races. The Shaper Origin should only be required to make the first one. I want very much to have it obsolete itself in the process.
> 
> Not gluing anything to the wooden auxiliary fence and just having it as a hunk of wood with two counter-bored holes means it can be consumable itself with only the cost of the wood (I still chose to use Rosewood though because of its durability and beauty).


yes but how much use will it take to need to replace it ? maybe a lifetime ? so is it even a concern. damn dev i wish most manufacturers spent the time and effort making things to your standards. never happen because the goal is for it to wear out not long after the warranty period so you buy a new one.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Thanks. I try. The tool if it going to fail has to fail gracefully, and safely. The scenario I imagine is, as it gets passed down, that a rookie user drops it on concrete and not even Gaboon Ebony and Rosewood construction will save its dear sole. Also, wood shrinks as it dries over decades. This can be seen in old wooden planes where the wedge won’t, uh, wedge. So I am planning for long-term decadal shrinkage as well. This thing is being made to be _functional_ for over 100 years, shrinkage included. It would take a tank or some serious aggression to take this thing out completely (albeit the skate is a bit delicate; reinforced but still less hearty than everything else).


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I never buy just one fastener. I tend to buy double what I need for a project. Has always worked.

Though I do tend to end up with a lot of extra fasteners. Also not a problem, as I organized those.

Being lazy and not bringing your calipers to the store and buying the wrong length, ... yeah, I don't have an excuse for that one.

Forgetting my glasses at the store because they are transitions which caused me to take them off to quickly read a label and leave them on the counter? Yeah, also no excuse for that one.

But hey, I get to go back and take some pictures of those $5 fender washers for you at least, when I go to check with their lost-and-found department for my glasses.

OSH didn't have the "right" screws, so I just bought a 26-pack from Amazon for $9.26 (tax included, free prime shipping). I needed 1/4-20 x 3/4 flat head socket cap, and they were conspicuously sold out of that length (which I knew in my mind was the "right" length when I bought 1" length, I just needed the flat head socket cap for height tests, which it served well -- but I couldn't just let myself buy just one, had to buy 8, so now I've got 8 screws of 1/4-20 x 1 black oxide that will be used somewhere, ... eventually).

I do love a good fastener collection though. For some reason, a few of my neighbors (that know nothing about fasteners) love to talk about fasteners. I was taught all about them at a young age and continue to find them fascinating. I never am one to just pick up a screw and think of it as a screw.

ASIDE: Before anyone says it, I abhor the popularized millennial definition of a screw as "a helical plane wrapped around a ..." which is utter BS. I don't see the flanks of thread as having been added to anything but rather I see the negative space of what has been removed to form the threads (whatever kind they may be; Acme, whatever).

While waiting for the "right" screws to arrive, I am working on cutting a miniature skate to affix to a piece of scrap wood for testing purposes.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Previously, I had mentioned that I might be concerned (unnecessarily-so) about forming a cutting edge through the use of a 90-degree V-groove bit to part out the 0.015 shim stock into a skate, in essence creating a chisel bevel.

I rationalized I could stone it off (diamond plate, ceramic, whatever).

Having thought about it, I actually think that if it does happen, good, if it doesn't happen, fine. Doesn't matter one way or another ... and here's why:

There were two things I became concerned about first:

a. Safety -- could cut you
b. The shoulder in which the skate resides is shallow depth on long grain and if the fibers become severed they will lift

But ...

1. To the point of a, saws are inherently dangerous, and there may actually be utility as a marking instrument to utilize the skate to lay a 0.015" or less line prior to going in with the 0.020" thick saw blade (which purportedly lays an ~0.031" kerf)

2. I have widened the shoulder from 1/16" (0.0625") to 0.187", more than doubling it for strength, but I am also just going to make sure that I set an offset on the shoulder pocket cut as I go (performing test fits with the skate in-hand) to make sure it sits nice and flush without any force, mitigating severance of any fibers at the shoulder wall. Also, once the glue has cured the skate won't be moving anyway, which is when the shoulder walls will be free of interaction with the stationary skate


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

DevinT said:


> I never buy just one fastener. I tend to buy double what I need for a project. Has always worked.
> 
> Though I do tend to end up with a lot of extra fasteners. Also not a problem, as I organized those.
> 
> ...


fasteners,if you love em youd love my shop.ive saved every extra screw, nut, and bolt from everything ive ever bought or bought extras for the last 40 years. sadly my collection is not well organized though. but i tell ya it's saved me from running to the stores many times.it's rare when i dont have what i need for pretty much anything.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

pottz said:


> fasteners,if you love em youd love my shop.ive saved every extra screw, nut, and bolt from everything ive ever bought or bought extras for the last 40 years. sadly my collection is not well organized though. but i tell ya it's saved me from running to the stores many times.it's rare when i dont have what i need for pretty much anything.


YES! Ok, so you'll probably enjoy it when I say that occasionally -- not always, but sometimes -- I'll see a random screw on the ground and pick it up to inspect it because something seems different about it. And unless it is damaged, I'll bring it home and add it to my "organization" (_cough_ which is just a large mason jar with bags labeled "hex", "Phillips", "Alan", "Tees", "Washers", etc. each filled with smaller bags grouping like-items and one-offs).

Speaking of that one screw that saves you a trip to the store ...

A neighbor brought over a hole-friggin bathroom ceiling fan the other day (LOL -- all he said was "I have a mounting screw question," and I was not expecting him to bring over a ceiling fan, housing and all).

We went through my one-offs and found a #6 button head sheet metal screw that I have no clue where it came from, but I had it, and it worked perfectly. I love moments like that. I'm not going to miss that screw one bit but he will forever be thankful because when he went to the hardware store they just hit him with a bunch of questions he couldn't answer. I dumbed it down and just pulled out several screws and showed him the differences between a wood screw, sheet metal screw, and machine screw ("mounting screw" doesn't mean anything; whether you can mount something over it is basically what kind of head it has, so we covered materials and how screws actually grab certain materials differently and how if you tried to use a wood screw in sheet metal, what would happen, and also how threading a machine screw into sheet metal is basically not going to happen unless under ideal conditions whilst providing less than ideal results).

Now ... rivets ... that's a whole other beast that I've never explored or been shown. Would love to learn about rivets one day (I've been watching YouTube videos on them, but I still just need some project that calls for them to force me to get familiar with them)


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

DevinT said:


> YES! Ok, so you'll probably enjoy it when I say that occasionally -- not always, but sometimes -- I'll see a random screw on the ground and pick it up to inspect it because something seems different about it. And unless it is damaged, I'll bring it home and add it to my "organization" (_cough_ which is just a large mason jar with bags labeled "hex", "Phillips", "Alan", "Tees", "Washers", etc. each filled with smaller bags grouping like-items and one-offs).
> 
> Speaking of that one screw that saves you a trip to the store ...
> 
> ...


i do have fasteners of the same type seperated though so it's not a total mess-lol. ive got a pop rivet tool ive had for years.cant remember the last time i used it though.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Got my glasses back. Apparently this is a common occurrence at OSH. They had no less than 5 pairs in the lost and found.

Also …


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

wow thats insane.i just wonder how many get sold and how many "fall" into people pockets ?


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

pottz said:


> wow thats insane.i just wonder how many get sold and how many "fall" into people pockets ?


I feel like the staff watches me like a hawk when I am in that section. Honest, hard working customer, legitimately considering the "bling" of the fastener jewelry (that's exactly it, it's jewelry), they helicopter over me as though I'm going to pocket a bunch of them -- because I bet a lot of people do because they don't respect the effort that goes into making them (they probably see that washer and think it's a 20-cent part to make and I'm thinking to myself how does one even make black chrome?)


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Look almost like something the Department of Defense buys all the time...


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

DevinT said:


> I feel like the staff watches me like a hawk when I am in that section. Honest, hard working customer, legitimately considering the "bling" of the fastener jewelry (that's exactly it, it's jewelry), they helicopter over me as though I'm going to pocket a bunch of them -- because I bet a lot of people do because they don't respect the effort that goes into making them (they probably see that washer and think it's a 20-cent part to make and I'm thinking to myself how does one even make black chrome?)


im surprised they just have it to help yourself.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

bandit571 said:


> Look almost like something the Department of Defense buys all the time...


oh hell bandit they would be paying 50 bucks each for the 5 dollars ones  🤣


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## Ark68SS (Oct 1, 2021)

You need to pick up this book- https://www.amazon.com/Nuts-Bolts-F...&sprefix=carroll+smith,stripbooks,4175&sr=1-6
Carroll Smith was one of the best racing engineering and design men who ever lived. His books have detailed analysis of the whats and whys of engineering development and practice written in a manner that a layperson can understand. You will find his opinion on lock washers to be contrary to yours, but he explains why in detail.
I built, raced, and did a little design work on production sports cars, late model dirt track cars, and drag racing cars from the 70's to the 00's and used his books as my "bible". I think you'll find it interesting and practical, even for woodworking.
BillL


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Thanks @Ark68SS -- I'll pick up a copy as soon as I can.

Time for another update ...

I finished updating the SVGs for the new fastener selections (namely, the incorporation of fiber washers behind the split washers to prevent marring the wood and spread the load; flat head socket caps for centering; the incorporation of a "magnetic bushing") and I also relocated a couple standoffs and created blow-apart diagrams for the aux fence (shared below).










Zooming in, the part your hand holds on to that moves with the micro-adjust knob










The first three steps of assembling that section involve slapping a fender washer into a counter bored hole and then slipping a screw through the center and tightening it down with an Alan key (steps 1, 2). Then slap a mag bushing over the screw










What's a mag bushing? A piece of acrylic with a magnet in the center, counter-bored to allow for the 1/2" diameter screw head to sit 6-thou above the magnet as the bushing contacts the fender washer:










Slipped over the screw head into the counter-bore, the 1/4" thick acrylic bushing protrudes from the counter-bore and also exposes the magnet from the other side. The assembly continues by slapping the molded portion of the aux fence over the bushing. There's a magnet recessed in a counter-bored hole that causes the two fences to mate magnetically for the next step that follows the below one:










Once attached, you've now got to secure the two pieces together. That is done by way of a standoff/bushing that has a threaded insert protruding from it. The shoulder of the bushing allows it to seat in a counter-bored hole which then acts as a standoff for the threaded insert to sit flush with the opposing surface.










Then comes more screws. Unlike the previous screw which centers the top half onto the micro-adjustable fence, these screws allow a little (15-thou) wiggle room so the two halves can be mated together in alignment without internal stress (two self-centering flat-head screws can fight each other if not arranged exactly, and so one set of screws centers and the other set of screws tightens while the mag bushing acts as a bearing surface at its edges in the counter-bore to aid in alignment). These screws get lock (split) washers and a fiber washer. Yeah yeah, I'm not absolutely thrilled about using fiber washers on a wooden project BUT ... have you ever considered that fiber washers work just fine and have the added benefit that their narrow center hole and low weight and extra thin stature make them perfect because they don't fall off the screw like a regular washer)










And there we have it, fully mated.

ASIDE: Yes, I am crazy -- we know this -- that's why I modeled the split washer at no-load, 75% pre-load, and 100% (I really wanted to know if that screw head was going to sit flush or below the surface at a 75% pre-load (it does -- because I sized the counter-bore to make it so).

As a bonus, here is the whole thing in an exploded view










Sorry for using such light colors. It's not that I am setting a light color, but that I am adjusting the opacity so I can see through each element. Apologies if that made it hard to grasp. Let me know and I can clarify anything.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

WAY above my Pay Grade....still looks good...


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I think that it is within all of us to create something beautiful and functional. We so often talk about how we can't get time back, but I am finding the youths these days just can't slow down. Me? I've got to "sleep on it" when I'm pondering something.

If the answer doesn't come to me right away, I don't dwell on it, I do something else. So many times the answers have come to me and ...

With this project? This project ... 

I have rationalized that I am essentially strapping a saw to a jig. Is it a fancy jig? Sure. But let me tell you something ...

After its built, at least 60% of the technical details will have been ejected from my brain. I actually take a breather and TRY to forget the trauma of "going to school" on building the first one. I think someone in another forum intimated that I just like to fart around with design software -- but I can't wait to hold this thing in my hands.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

DevinT said:


> I think that it is within all of us to create something beautiful and functional. We so often talk about how we can't get time back, but I am finding the youths these days just can't slow down. Me? I've got to "sleep on it" when I'm pondering something.
> 
> If the answer doesn't come to me right away, I don't dwell on it, I do something else. So many times the answers have come to me and ...
> 
> ...


i cant wait to see it finished.it's been a long road. from all youve shown it should be a thing of beauty and function


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I did! I finally figured out how I'm going to turn this one 20" x 9" x 1.5" hunk of Bubinga (one of several hunks of the stuff) into the crown molding fence.

It wasn't easy, and here's why ...










There's the 8 different router bits I have to set up for and use after mounting the blank to the Shaper Workstation.

However, ... as you will see, but the time that I get down to step 7 of 8, there is very little material for the Shaper to sit on.










Well, I figured out a great solution. Check this out ...










I take the 20 x 9 block and mill out one precision-dimensioned hunk close to one edge, rotate it 180 degrees, and repeat. I now have two precisely dimensioned (on all axes) blanks. Oh, but wait for it ... those scraps are going to be uber important as we will see.

As you bring the Shaper Origin toward the work for step 7 of 8 ... there is no material for the shaper to rest on except for the very leading edge (that's no good)










As it is bound to fall into the crown molding at this point










What to do? Well, we save the scrap from above, and you're about to see why I cut the blanks near the edge of the 8/4 board










AHA! Now the Origin has material to rest on throughout the cut. The scraps are co-planer with the top of the crown molding because ... it came from the same stock. GENIUS!

And when I finish that blank, I just pop in another, and another, and another ...










ASIDE: That front lip looking like it's a little too close for comfort? Not a problem ... I can always just rotate the router ... like so ...










Also worth noting that the Shaper Origin will correct so if I need a little more meat at the lip to rest on, I can always just edge it about a 1/2" to 3/4" away from my cut line and Origin will just move the spindle to correct. It's a technique that works when you have to bridge a large gap.

Pretty cool, eh? Things are moving along nicely now. I was kind of stressing about how exactly I was going to fabricate a support for the back end of the router that was also co-planer with the top of the molding -- since the entirety of the molding is too wide to fit within the "support bars" of the Shaper Workstation (which would have made this entire thing a snap by just hovering over the entire thing the entire time, never touching the surface of the molding with the bottom of the router).


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Behold ... we now have 2 complete parts. Woof ... what is 42 + 25 ... guess that would be 67 cuts we are up to now, which would only produce 5 of the 11 required wooden pieces (seems daunting when I start to quantify it -- which is why I have resisted until this point).

Check it out ... (a quick recap of the first one we finalized -- the fence; and then a look at the newly finalized part)










And ... the main attraction for today ...


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Notice how the molded hand fence has the same complex molding pattern applied to the end grain as the part where your fingers rest when holding it. That is because an alternate form of holding is to drape your fingers over the end grain while holding the brass rods. Learned that from Whelan.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

well  howdie girl-lol !!!! damn dev when i think ive seen all you can do..............you always do more.....much more! i dont always know what the hell your doin,but i just assume it's amazing  🤣 😁


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

pottz said:


> well  howdie girl-lol !!!! damn dev when i think ive seen all you can do..............you always do more.....much more! i dont always know what the hell your doin,but i just assume it's amazing  🤣 😁


i call it “organizing my thoughts” 🤪


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Continued support from you, @pottz , and @bandit571 keeps me going


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

DevinT said:


> Continued support from you, @pottz , and @bandit571 keeps me going


you know ill always be with you.(wink) i just wish more could really know my "devin" !!!


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Baby was a brat today. Did not go down for afternoon nap, so zero progress today.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

DevinT said:


> Baby was a brat today. Did not go down for afternoon nap, so zero progress today.


so a normal day dev ?


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

As a status update in-case anyone thought I was being a baby and over-stating things …

I had been wondering lately why when I lightly rap the knuckles of my left hand on some wood (checking for voids, e.g., in Ebony) one knuckle begins to scream in pain which almost doubles me over for a good 30 seconds.

and the other hand, not quite as bad but a level 4 of pain.

then I remembered …

the left hand was smashed by a window where the stupid balance bars failed (which I just remembered looking at my photo roll)


















and the right hand was my own doing by punching my workbench (and yes, I remember why).

both of them still hurt but since I have adapted to not applying force to my knuckles (gripping things is no problem).

I still suspect a spiral fracture on the right, and I don’t know what happened to the left when the window dropped on it. No, I am not going to a doctor. I don’t want pity or sympathy — commiseration, sure.

I guess I am just sharing because I was actually hoping I was over-assessing initial damage but it doesn’t appear to be the case. Has not slowed me down at all (just don’t ask me to knock on any doors for the next 5 years).

Hmm, this gives me an idea for a “knocking stick” — maybe I could just make a shillelagh. Sure would be easy to check my Ebony for voids with one of those — and set any hoodlums straight that need lessons.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

There was a saying....From Chief Engineering Officer Montgomery Scott:
" The more they complicate the "plumbing", the easier it is to plug up the drain" And, as he handed Dr. McCoy 3 large fuses.."Here Doctor, from one Surgeon to another.."

So, be careful with how complicated a Project would get....as it will take a very small item to derail all the work.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

bandit571 said:


> There was a saying....From Chief Engineering Officer Montgomery Scott:
> " The more they complicate the "plumbing", the easier it is to plug up the drain" And, as he handed Dr. McCoy 3 large fuses.."Here Doctor, from one Surgeon to another.."
> 
> So, be careful with how complicated a Project would get....as it will take a very small item to derail all the work.


so what I hear you saying is, be careful not to over complicate the shillelagh. Gotcha

On a related note, is it illegal to walk around with one? I was taught they were illegal


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Fit it out as a "Walking Stick"....That ball on the end as a handle.....Begorrah!


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Past couple days …

finally made it to the post office to pick up the 3/4” length flat head socket cap screws (which replace the 1” length ones that were too long).

sigh, … (usable but …)

At OSH they may charge a nose and a foot for the fasteners (79 cents per black oxide screw) but they are impressively within 0.0015” tolerance. These screws fromAmazon haven’t even been deburred and some are coming in around 0.735 ranging up to 0.747 (on the same screw!) but it seems an average would be 0.740

That is definitely usable in my book, but it just cements in my mind that you get what you pay for. The self-serve fasteners at OSH really do appear to be worth their cost (while maintaining margins for OSH; I know for a fact McMaster Carr sells the same quality as OSH for the same price or slightly less than the Amazon China product. I do buy from McMaster but Amazon does in a pinch.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

... but the screws were just a minor annoyance (and really no skin off my nose) ...

Here's the real news story ...

Less than 72 hours ago, some folks over at the Shaper Origin community forum convinced me to have a look at something I've never seen before.

Trochoidal Performance Cutting/Milling (TPC/TPM).

It's a new dog-and-pony for CNC setups. I was highly skeptical, but after digesting mounds of data, running my own numbers, and generating a simulation, I am convinced that this new cutting/milling approach begs a test-run on the Shaper Origin.

OK, I hear you saying "tro--what?" Here, watch this ...






OK, except I think I can do better. This is the approach I would take (and am taking for my initial performance tests)






Some folks have started calling it "the DT trochoid"

This was an interesting thing to noodle on, so I neglected the plane for a few days.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Muahahaha!


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I would like to recap the above statement:






(… continues to laugh maniacally)

For context:

Some people on the Shaper Tools forum — mind you, fellow owners (because the forum is closed to the public and only owners can participate in said forum on their website) — started trashing the company because of a recent decision they made wherein on November 21st they will be launching their first-ever non-free, paid-for plug-in extension for adding non-basic features.

that feature?

it is called AutoPass and it allows you to tie traditional milling passes where you incrementally increase depth and than at the end remove an offset that was set from the start, so you can milk a tiny amount off the outer edge at full-depth. If you want to non-aggressively — for example — make a shape in Gaboon Ebony 3/4” thick, you might use a 1/4” cutter and take 1/8” passes in depth with a 0.01” offset and perform 5 passes and then on the final pass remove the offset and perform the last of 6 passes at 3/4”

think of it this way, using a guide bushing with an offset and a template and having to make multiple passes at increasing depths of cut. Then you remove the guide bushing and use a flush trim bit.

well, AutoPass will make it so you do not have to stop and change the depth. The feature will make it so the Shaper Origin ramps at an angle from one depth to the next.

a lot of people yelled at the company because it was not announced as a free feature.

the company was lambasted for not working on things they wanted and instead working on this.

folks railroaded the company saying that this should have been a free core feature.

Some even went so far as to go to YouTube and claim they were being blackmailed by the company for putting a price tag on it.

but, amongst all the noise there was one rather interesting couple, a German man and a French woman (iirc) that claimed that AutoPass is, no pun intended, passé and uses old style milling techniques.

suffice it to say, I have a bit of creativity that I have not seen expressed in the feedback and so I went on a deep dive.

I researched this new thing called trochoidal milling (which is applicable to Shaper Origin; there is also trochoidal turning, and many variations of trochoidal cutting).

I first heard about it in June of last year but hand-waived at it. Thought it was just silliness and did not fully understand it. After doing a lot of research, I actually figured I would do something about it to try and make all these negative nellies shut the hell up about AutoPass.

they say trochoidal milling would make AutoPass obsolete. I put that theory to the test by doing what nobody else was able to do … put up or shut up — I made trochoidal patterns for Shaper Origin owners so they could test it and evaluate for themselves the real world capabilities of applying this to a hand-held CNC router.

well, they tried my designs and we learned some things, and I think we are all the better for it. I believe that folks following my work on the hub and in the forum on TPC (trochoidal performance cutting — focusing on time-to-completion for profit-driven milling) have stopped whinging about AutoPass because they realize …

The nigh-on 7 year old processors in the Shaper Origin generation-1 hardware cannot handle more than a few thousand nodes in a TPC path which severely limits the application of TPC to Shaper Origin (generation-2 of the hardware was just announced last week-ish and has a newer CPU many times more powerful meaning you could pull off much larger TPC tool paths).

But what this SHOULD signify to owners of Shaper Origins is that the tool they bought has limits and if you want to step up to something capable of TPC it will Cost you in either $$$ or time. You can buy a cheap machine capable of running G-code to operate with stored macros so that a precomputed TPC tool path such as is necessary with Shaper Origin (lacking a plugin that never foresee being made to do TPC on-tool) is simply not feasible since the number of nodes impacts how much memory your CNC can load. Without debasing CNC to raw G-code to implement TPC with a cheap machine with little memory, you could solve the issue with jumping to a Tormach and now we are talking about jumping from a $3k Shaper Origin to a $48k Tormach. Like, WtAF do these people think they are doing asking for AutoPass for free? Go buy a Tormach and run PathPilot and just stop using your Shaper Origin or give it away.

yeah, I am a little salty …

All that being said, I present to you a real world test of my TPC program that was performed by another Shaper Origin owner in Europe.

TPC in Oak. Full-depth slotting at 17mm deep with an 8mm diameter router bit (you don’t need to know metric that 17 is more than 2x the number 8 … and we have all been taught that you should never cut more than 1x the router bit for each pass but that was traditional milling, this is trochoidal milling where you can go 3x and even 4x the bit diameter in depth)






(same video that is at the top of this comment)


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

LoL, if you look at the comments on the below video, some people are reporting to have sold their Shaper Origin over this …






Ridiculous if you ask me. I don’t throw out my Stanley hand planes because I am disgusted at something the company did (likely before I was even born).

ASIDE: I love Stanley. More than Shaper Tools. Largely because I read the book on the history of Stanley and have learned what an amazing family-oriented and small-town loving corporation they-are that — despite their seemingly insatiable appetite to gobble up every competitor — they give back to communities and are (if the book is to be believed) a stellar example of treating your employees and customers well. However if they did exactly what Shaper Tools did, it would be akin to asking for money for something they made that people want for free and this does not in any way invalidate how they treat their employees. The whole thing is asanine.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

On November 21st, I am getting a new upgrade to my Shaper Origin which will allow me to encode into my cut files the desired depth of features to help eliminate potential mistakes when cutting the many many features on this kerfing plane.

I will also be paying the money to buy the AutoPass feature which will further make cutting this kerfing plane a cinch.


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## RyanGi (Jan 13, 2021)

One of the things I’ve seen repeated again and again as a complaint about AutoPass being a paid-for extension is that it‘s essentially a standard, baked-in option on any mid level or higher cnc machine, since it’s simply a section of code inserted into the cut program. While I can understand this argument to a degree, I don’t think it’s necessarily valid since the Origin doesn’t let you manually add g-code to develop cut programs. The whole point (well, at least one of the points) of the Shaper Origin is that you _don’t _have to deal with g-code.

I’m ok with them billing for it, especially since they opted to make it a one-time purchase that‘s transferable. It’s a true add on, that surely required a fair bit of work on their side. The Origin isn’t just another CNC machine, it’s its own beast with its own positives and negatives, and I don’t feel it can be directly compared to other machines. 

I think it’s going to fit well with Jenner and will make even the gen 1 tool much more powerful. I’ll be buying it, if for no other reason that to support their continued development and expansion.…and I’ve missed a decimal point on more than one occasion and f’d up a project as a result.

Now, I do take some issue with the cost of Studio. I guess, more correctly, the recurrent cost and I think there’s too much of a gap between the free version and the paid version. The free version is almost useless in my mind and lacks fundamental operations that I would expect to be part of a free version specifically written for a specific machine. The paid version, in my opinion, is just a little too niche to be functional (for me). Obviously if you were doing a lot of work that required minor variations, and that Studio could handle, then it would be worth it (but isn’t that any piece of software?). For a hobby/light commercial machine I would either expect a lower price for what they’re offering, or more functionality…


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

RyanGi said:


> One of the things I’ve seen repeated again and again as a complaint about AutoPass being a paid-for extension is that it‘s essentially a standard, baked-in option on any mid level or higher cnc machine, since it’s simply a section of code inserted into the cut program. While I can understand this argument to a degree, I don’t think it’s necessarily valid since the Origin doesn’t let you manually add g-code to develop cut programs. The whole point (well, at least one of the points) of the Shaper Origin is that you _don’t _have to deal with g-code.
> 
> I’m ok with them billing for it, especially since they opted to make it a one-time purchase that‘s transferable. It’s a true add on, that surely required a fair bit of work on their side. The Origin isn’t just another CNC machine, it’s its own beast with its own positives and negatives, and I don’t feel it can be directly compared to other machines.
> 
> ...


I could not agree more. I know close to 30 programming languages (28 if we are being precise). At a point, I think two things happen:

1. You get tired
2. You need alternatives

When I finally, Jan of 2021, made the jump to CNC by purchasing a Shaper Origin, it was for 2 reasons alone:

1. A project I was working on — retro-fitting an existing awning window with an interior HVAC concept to bring the intake/exhaust ports of a portable air conditioner inside the unit to hide them instead of making them visible from the outside (goal: skirt the HOA rules) … required hitting tolerances that were both difficult for me to pull off and were laughed-at by local fabricators.

2. I did not want to have to use G-code. I do enough programming in my personal and professional life, and I don’t use coding in my woodwork (which is an escape) and I don’t want to use any code in my woodwork. For me woodwork is a very physical thing — it must be; I must feel the wood and be connected to it like my father as he carved or my grandfather, and so-on up the line (using their tools). CNC moves me away from that, but I still needed to get the job done, becaus no shop would promise the tolerances required.

Shaper Origin was a happy middle ground. It did not move me too far from center (my personal center; which is probably more on the hand-tool side than most) and did not require me to use code.

I know that once I learn G-code it will be “over” and I will become so drunk with power that it will likely lead to a sea-change for me and I will probably quit my job and try to enter the aerospace industry (following in my deceased mother’s footsteps), but I have thus far resisted learning it. In reality it would probably only take me a day or two to learn, but as I said, I suspect I will become addicted to it. I am keenly aware however that most people do not possess the skill to sit down with a book, read it cover to cover, and then immediately skip from novice to intermediate learning level on the topic of programming. However, many people can draw. The fact that Shaper Origin uses drawings means it is — to use the language of my people — WYSIWYG — What You See Is What You Get.

If I pass a G-code program to a fellow engineer they have to load it up in something like PathFinder, EstlCAM, CAMBAM, MasterCAM or some type of software to illustrate what will happen, implying that without this additional software, (as PathPilot is entirely optional on the Tormach PCNC) it is not WYSIWYG (a term that was introduced in the late 80’s/early 90’s to describe font menus — a non-WYSIWYG font menu made you choose the font by name to see what your text would look like while a WYSIWYG font menu displayed the font name in the font itself so you could more easily select what you wanted).

As you say, it is not possible to give Shaper Origin G-code and that really makes it attractive to me. SVG as a format is 30+ years old (how old is Adobe Illustrator?) and before CNC was used in the desktop publishing trade. So that means there are 30 years worth of software suites in the wild for free that can display, edit, convert, and transform SVG files. The mere fact that Shaper Origin will not take anything but an SVG also means that you don’t need — but certainly can use (through a conversion workflow) CAM software to illustrate what it is you are trying to achieve.

The SVG files contain both the final product, notes, depth encodings, anchors points calling out how the part must be indicated into the system (something familiar to machinists, both CNC and non-CNC), and any custom tool paths. And I don’t need a rendered movie to interpret the SVG — when you know how Shaper Origin treats a shape of certain color or line with a stroke, then you can just look at a static image and know how the cut will go. It is one step below professional industrial fabrication using simplified software (SVG based). It would never pass a sniff test to an industrial aerospace fabricator, but, I only needed to make an HVAC system to within +/- 1/128” tolerance (because the way the house was designed — thin frames on the awning windows — which no fab shop was willing to promise me as a low-volume customer (I wanted just one unit; that’s about as low-volume as you can get).

The Shaper Origin seemed like the perfect solution for my low-volume, low-tolerance needs, without bringing something like programming into the mix to achieve it and opening up that whole Pandora’s box (which I am more than capable of, but do not because I know the ramifications).

AutoPass costing money doesn’t change any of the things I stated that got me into it and what keep me using it.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I am getting bored of trochoidal milling, as an aside.

In my humble opinion, it is much ado about nothing for low volume needs. I personally won’t be using it for two very simple reasons:

1. It turns more valuable wood into sawdust (I work mostly exotics, and I do not enjoy making a slot wider than it has to be. Trochoidal slot milling is not worth the risks of burning the bit or missing my tolerances, and I certainly do not enjoy having smaller cutouts or remaining material I can pull out of the scrap bin for accents and sundry).

2. Given the limitations of Shaper Origin, you have to size the trochoid to one quarter of the optimum engagement ratio else the noodly arms of the human operator do not provide enough rigidity for jig speed directional change. Without change in direction, you are forced on Shaper Origin to elongate the trochoid; this in-turn cause the human operator to shift the machine back and forth because the trochoid is wider than the self-corrective spindle range of the Shaper Origin. The latter is less than optimal since unnecessary movement effects tracking with Shaper Origin.

These two points for me make trochoidal performance cutting — in conjunction with the inability to exceed 10in/min or 250mm/min (due to human operator as the weak point in rigidity — the machine is capable of over 3.5x that speed) — a no-go on Shaper Origin.

I purposefully have not run my own trochoidal tests because I know that I will bring my experience to the table and likely make something that is actually decent and workable but not translate to others with inexperience. This is how metal cutting with Shaper Origin has gone. To date, I have seen no one but myself cutting steel with Shaper Origin. While there are folks out there cutting aluminum, that is rather boring to me. Aluminum is soft. Brass is soft. Either of those are any sort of challenge because I bring machinist principals learned from books and trialed in the real world for experience while others are merely just hoping for the best and being happy with the results because they normally cut wood. I see it in the forums. They go to McMaster Carr and pick a brass based on a description of being machinable and then they just throw Shaper Origin at it without having ever stopped to read a book on machining (instead going to YouTube to see someone else has done it, so why not).

The fact of the matter is, that I do not want to put out material that causes people to try things that are beyond their skill level. Trochoidal milling, trochoidal cutting, and trochoidal turning are ALL beyond the skill level of Shaper Origin users that have not studied machining.

We have to keep in mind that Shaper Origin — because it requires no code — exists in the hands of many different skill levels. Here is an example …

Two people tested my trochoidal paths.

1 person posted a single image and a single paragraph

1 other person posted 5+ pictures and 3+ videos.

This is in now way an end intent of either person in any way, but I will use these two people to demonstrate the differing skill levels by describing what I observe:

The person the posted a single photo and a single paragraph was male, highly skilled, and highly experienced. They tested a 3.75% step-over trochoidal path for me, performed 25% of the test cut, stopped, took a picture, uploaded it, and described how the router behaved in the cut succinctly.

The second person performed every test to completion and took video and made side-by-side comparison videos.

I love both testers and got different levels of data and needed both outcomes to see how each skill level interacted with the new milling technique.

The less skilled person did not know to stop the cut and prematurely abort the tests and report back that there was chatter and rubbing at an optimized 30% step-over (cuts 8x faster than the previously tested 3.75% step-over). Instead, we get detailed shots of the damage, a burned and broken bit (which I am trying to source for her as a thank you to repay her for testing), and claims of decent performance.

Meanwhile, the exorbitantly skilled tester made no claims of the quality of results (and in my opinion were stellar) while focusing on the reality of the fact that the speed of the Origin’s feed had to be low enough to avoid chatter and deflection to get that result that it invalidates the benefits of trochoidal CAM on Shaper Origin (without even needing to say as much or directly so).

This in my mind has cemented for me that the statements from the CEO regarding how AutoPass is going to change your experience dramatically for the good with Shaper Origin are rooted in truth. It was said trochoidal milling would have been better than AutoPass — that clearly is not true (and really there is no exception and there is no corner-case where supporting that as an on-tool feature would ever be helpful — the application is so specific that it really needs to be in the scope of per-part, per-shop, per-material, per-bit, and writing code into Shaper Origin to prompt someone for this level of information to make a tangentially small improvement to cut time seems to be a fools errand).

AutoPass does not require re-learning how you cut things, you still perform picture-frame milling; round the outside or round the inside, on line or bounded (pocket), the skill level you are at is fine and you will not be disappointed by the results when you use it because it fundamentally just eliminates pausing.

If I ran Shaper Tools, I would have done the exact same thing; price it high enough that the people that will want it for free at any price will complain, but price it low enough that it is adopted by evangelists with money. Except I would then unannounced drop the price after its introduction as a nice surprise while also introducing a new feature to it. In other words still, set up expectations in a way that people first hate you but then thank you and pull out their wallets because you just gave them the killer feature they always asked for (e.g., V-carve) but could not do it without paying very very expensive developers. This is what we call a transformative move to monetize something everyone wants, nearly all customers, but need to season them to pay for it. Business school 101 — create perceived value. They will hate Shaper Origin for charging what they see to be an outrageous price for AutoPass, they will see the CEO stating “better now than when the price goes up” and when it grows that feature everyone wants AND the price drops, but you gave it to the people that bought it early months ahead of time for testing (the early sale of which driving the expenditure for supporting issue tracking for beta testing on the audience) … it becomes win, win, win, win, win, win, win, win …

win: the killer feature requiring AutoPass comes to fruition (again: read: V-carve and/or 3D CNC)

win: the company has money to support its development

win: customers are seasoned to pay for it

win: when it drops it is affordable

win: you have identified an audience of potential early testers for the feature

win: you have weeded-out from the above group unskilled individuals that would be of low-value in an early-release test cycle by pricing AutoPass high enough to make less skilled users self-select out of early adoption

win: skilled individuals recognizing AutoPass and its capabilities with just a modicum of creativity applied will gladly self-select as paying early adopters to get that feature and it cannot be announced as a precursor to V-carve or it would taint the selection process for later efforts

win: AutoPass folks will not be offended if the price on it later falls because being a paid-for feature the implication is that it enters you into a support contract for the feature where you should be able to ring someone on the horn if you need help with it (though I am sure many video sessions will be made and again, the price is going to self-select-out lower skilled individuals requiring hand-holding, so the higher price also helps to mitigate support costs … yet another win, but we are not at so many wins we should just stop).

Are there some losses?

yes, every business has losses but sometimes they are calculated and what I see are self-entitled brats claiming something should have been free without considering much more than their own needs and desires selling their Shaper Origin claiming that Shaper Tools committed some heinous crime.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

To date I have heard nobody point out the old adage of “no news is bad news.”

in other words, lack of news is the worst news.

in other words still, negative news is still news [wherein people are still talking about your product].

The controversy has lots of my friends that have been on the fence about buying a Shaper Origin asking me lots of questions and positioning their fingers over the buy button, and I am telling them to do it (new hardware means fresh new support cycle before the current iteration goes end-of-manufacture … a product life-cycle state that predates the point of becoming end-of-life’d).

The generation hardware has reached end-of-manufacture. It will be 12-24 months before it is end-of-life’d.

5-7 years from now until the next hardware iteration cycle. If you were on the fence, buy now.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Maybe try something like this, to "practize" on?








then add a few things..








Then maybe add a dado to house a shelf...








Inside views, mirror image parts....in Ash.

IF you happen to get bored, that is....


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

bandit571 said:


> Maybe try something like this, to "practize" on?
> View attachment 3860363
> 
> then add a few things..
> ...


i do get bored and tire very fast of hypothetical talk and bs— cough, which I am sure many people thought this whole thread is, cough

ASIDE: I spent $400 on the lumber to make two kerfing planes and hand dimensioned half of it in preparation for making the first one — proving that this thread is not all talk nor any BS. It is going to happen, I have all the parts, and it is getting made, and it will work, and it will be glorious — and I will not be using trochoidal milling to do it, but I will wait until November 21 to continue because I really really want that depth encoding feature and AutoPass because let’s face it — the little rug rat only gives me 30 minute stints in the shop; an hour is lucky

I think it is high time to get back to working on our kerfing plane.

On that topic, the next step is still the skate. I could cut it right now because I know the dimensions. But I am working on a completely worthless (to the end result) miniature of the skate. It will help me to answer a question.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

The skate steel is secured in position for Shaper Origin. The steel is 0.015” x 6” x 25” precision ground 1008 (8% carbon) mild steel. The cutter is Amana Tool 51692 (links below)

1008 Steel Sheet, Full Hard Temper, ASTM A109, 0.015" Thick, 6" Width, 25" Length, Pack of 2 https://a.co/d/gBrLQfz

Amana Tool - 51692 High Performance CNC Solid Carbide 90° 'V' Spiral Drills with AlT https://a.co/d/heEiAhx

And of course, you all should know what a Shaper Origin and Shaper Workstation are.

The plan is to cut this skate — I scrapped the plans for a mini skate, we’re just going straight into the full skate — in a single pass. The plunge will be to 20-thou DoC with a feed speed of 6.5 and a plunge speed of 0.8 (both in ipm), spindle speed 10k RPM.

I am not bothering to put down a layer of packing tape to protect the steel from its own swarf because it is a skate — it is designed to ride in the saw’s kerf — and therefore would be marred upon first-use anyhow, so the skate gets no makeup.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Part of my design process is playing the role of "what if I were a jackass and tried to ..." in an attempt to make sure it fails gracefully.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

In today's episode -- because I modeled every single part down to the thousandth-of-an-inch in detail -- spent a few hours just flipping screws backwards, trying to attach bushings upside down, install screws without washers, and generally trying to make a mess of everything. In most cases, the result is "well, you can't do that because the design prevents it" but in some cases, I had to make an adjustment or two, e.g., narrowing a slot to prevent trying to shove a bushing where it ought-not-go. Basically ... pretending what would happen if there was no instruction manual and all you had to go on was the sizes of certain components -- would it be obvious where everything goes? Well, the answer should be yes, without even attempting to think about it. It -- like my marking knife in the last swap -- should just magically assemble itself because the entire thing wants to be held in a certain way and once in-hand should just visually clue you in to how it assembles.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I just discovered that I almost made a costly error in the design that would have set me back 2 weeks and $100+

New golden rule developed:

ANY time that you have a removable bushing or plug that contains a threaded insert, you must NOT make the bushing/plug perfectly round else it will spin as the screw threads tighten in the insert. That you should elongate the bushing or plug or make it some other shape and recess it into a pocket so there is ample surface area to resist rotation once the screw is tightened in the thread.


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## cd.parkinson1973 (2 mo ago)

DevinT said:


> LoL, if you look at the comments on the below video, some people are reporting to have sold their Shaper Origin over this …
> 
> 
> 
> ...





DevinT said:


> LoL, if you look at the comments on the below video, some people are reporting to have sold their Shaper Origin over this …
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree with the guy on YouTube, £210 bucks is a smack in the face.
I see you also point out Gen 1 isn't powerful enough to


DevinT said:


> I would like to recap the above statement:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Looks like it will make cutting metals a lot easier … (am playing with it)


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## cd.parkinson1973 (2 mo ago)

£210 for a core feature, I will give it a miss


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Shopping for a Tormach 1100MX, I see there is a $10,641 premium on what I consider to be a core feature, PathPilot console. Without it, you are blind in the cut, you have no idea what is going on other than staring at a stream of G-codes flying by so fast that it really means nothing. But there you have it, greedy companies!






1100MX CNC Mill


The Tormach 1100MX is designed for prototyping, production, and education and with it's higher spindle speed and servo motors it has the power to cut through aluminum, titanium, hardened steels and alloys.




tormach.com





EDIT: This is not in jest at all. Not even in the slightest when it comes to Tormach’s case. If I understand correctly, they are charging for the console to run ParhPilot (software; real-time CAM visualization or off-line CAM simulation) and to my understanding, while they are not charging for the software, they are charging for the console— but without the console how are you supposed to get real-time CAM visualization?


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## cd.parkinson1973 (2 mo ago)

Everyone entitled to their own opinion, I still think it's a ripoff.
They could have released it at £50 and had 10 times as many uptake.
I am one of many who will leave it on the shelf, It's also put me off investing in Gen2.
From what I am reading, users are having to keep raising the spindle to vacuum out the build up, I would be fuming after selling a kidney for that.
Their new business plan is so short sighted, it's mind boggling.
I hold my hand up and admit they have a small following who would have paid £2000.00 for an on/off switch, maybe that will come on Gen3


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

cd.parkinson1973 said:


> Everyone entitled to their own opinion, I still think it's a ripoff.
> They could have released it at £50 and had 10 times as many uptake.
> Greed will see the end of them


I have thought about this statement a lot — I don’t think you made it first.

What if sales aren’t what we think they are or that the market is not as large as we think it is. I tend to think woodworking is great and in-general shop-time is sacrosanct. However, judging by my neighbors, friends, and family, I am in a minority. I can count the number of friends that are into the craft on 2 hands and the number of friends that own a Shaper Origin on one hand.

is it possible that 10x sales at any price is an unreasonable expectation given a broad view of realities? I think only Shaper Tools or the parent company TTS which also owns Festool has the spreadsheets and pundits to answer that question at-large.

I have posited with book authors whether we are in a third-wave DIY market, but hitting the history books, each wave was precipitated by major recessions. We could postulate that the market is not yet ripe for £50 because a global recession has not yet taken a foothold.

For those watching carefully though, Gen Z cannot buy homes in many developed nations and this is a calamity that could lead to a crash and a boom for the DIY market, with plummeting prices


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## cd.parkinson1973 (2 mo ago)

DevinT said:


> I have thought about this statement a lot — I don’t think you made it first.
> 
> What if sales aren’t what we think they are or that the market is not as large as we think it is. I tend to think woodworking is great and in-general shop-time is sacrosanct. However, judging by my neighbors, friends, and family, I am in a minority. I can count the number of friends that are into the craft on 2 hands and the number of friends that own a Shaper Origin on one hand.
> 
> ...


I see your point but those prices are not for me, even though I can afford it.
My workshop is full of Festool, Lie Neilson, Veritas, not mentioning bandsaw, planers etc quality tools which have cost me well over £30,000
Never once have I questioned the price, maybe I am wrong but I just can't justify those type of prices for another feature, it will get to the point where my Shaper will have cost more in features than the machine itself, it's not what I imagined buying into.
It also hurts that I only bought Gen1 a few months ago, reading your previous post it's not just a case of a bigger screen and better scanning. The way they went about the release of Gen2 was also sly, I would have waited had they been transparent a new version was on the way.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

cd.parkinson1973 said:


> I see your point but those prices are not for me, even though I can afford it.
> My workshop is full of Festool, Lie Neilson, Veritas, not mentioning bandsaw, planers etc quality tools which have cost me well over £30,000
> Never once have I questioned the price, maybe I am wrong but I just can't justify those type of prices for another feature, it will get to the point where my Shaper will have cost more in features than the machine itself, it's not what I imagined buying into.
> It also hurts that I only bought Gen1 a few months ago, reading your previous post it's not just a case of a bigger screen and better scanning. The way they went about the release of Gen2 was also sly, I would have waited had they been transparent a new version was on the way.


I read that the company clarified that the AutoPass license is per-person, not per-machine. So it is transferable both to a new machine and (I also read) another person. This kind of makes it like the 999,999-mile, 99-year, transferable auto-warranty that I got on my Fiat as an incentive to buy the brand right after it’s re-introduction into America (trying to fight off the old reputation that they were unserviceable since in the 1970’s they were introduced without a service network, so you had to find a random mechanic). I can transfer the manufacturer’s auto-warranty on my car to my children (not exceeding 99 years of course — assuming the company is still around by the time it expires). That’s even better than a lifetime warranty, hey! I haven’t seen Shaper Tools claim one couldn’t transfer the license to an infinite lineage, so does that make it even better than both a lifetime and a 99-year license for support?

Lastly, I also think the support is a big angle maybe for them (maybe coupled with not knowing what the market was when they priced it — maybe under-calculated demand or spoke with too few people, all at the professional level). However, I tend to think — reading the types of mistakes rookies make — that few people are like myself and will research theory and background before applying methodology (regardless of the tool, be it Shaper Origin or mortise chisel). The shockingly high level of expectations arising perhaps from the low barrier of entry for Shaper Origin is astonishing to me — but I also believe there are others that are correct when they state a free software stack with open hardware components can and often do achieve more (but perhaps not with the same simplicity).


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## cd.parkinson1973 (2 mo ago)

DevinT said:


> I read that the company clarified that the AutoPass license is per-person, not per-machine. So it is transferable both to a new machine and (I also read) another person. This kind of makes it like the 999,999-mile, 99-year, transferable auto-warranty that I got on my Fiat as an incentive to buy the brand right after it’s re-introduction into America (trying to fight off the old reputation that they were unserviceable since in the 1970’s they were introduced without a service network, so you had to find a random mechanic). I can transfer the manufacturer’s auto-warranty on my car to my children (not exceeding 99 years of course — assuming the company is still around by the time it expires). That’s even better than a lifetime warranty, hey! I haven’t seen Shaper Tools claim one couldn’t transfer the license to an infinite lineage, so does that make it even better than both a lifetime and a 99-year license for support?
> 
> Lastly, I also think the support is a big angle maybe for them (maybe coupled with not knowing what the market was when they priced it — maybe under-calculated demand or spoke with too few people, all at the professional level). However, I tend to think — reading the types of mistakes rookies make — that few people are like myself and will research theory and background before applying methodology (regardless of the tool, be it Shaper Origin or mortise chisel). The shockingly high level of expectations arising perhaps from the low barrier of entry for Shaper Origin is astonishing to me — but I also believe there are others that are correct when they state a free software stack with open hardware components can and often do achieve more (but perhaps not with the same simplicity).


I agree with you.
I think they targeted the professional users who can right off purchase as a business expense.
I think that approach has split the community and caused hostility, I personally have been called unhinged amongst other insults for putting across my views.
I just think a more affordable price tag for everybody would have made happy campers all around and possibly generated them more income.
The way I feel at the moment, I can't even look at it, I have shoved it in a cupboard out of sight.
I am so sorry I bought it.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Happy Thanksgiving, All!


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

My hand was forced …

decided at the last minute to sign up for a secret Santa swap at work. Then they announced that we have 1 week. Uh, OK.

I quickly whipped up a design for some monogrammed magnets. Then, of course, there was the problem that my Shaper Workstation was busy, set up to cut steel.

So, there was no time to waste. I had to get this steel off my Shaper Workstation to make room for the magnets I need to cut for the secret Santa.

but wait … I can predict you are thinking I pulled off the steel without cutting it. On the contrary, I did not indicate it into the CNC system and perform all that work for nothing. So, the best option in my mind was to just shoot for the moon. So, I went for it.

The skate has been cut and it is glorious. Mild steel shim stock was an excellent choice. Wow, the skate is super super durable — ask me how I know (I dropped it many times and not a single scratch, steel was the right choice).

now, the pictures


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

The part came out really good. I have been running the skate through kerfs made with the Ryoba and it is, dare I say it, Perfect!


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Of course, removing the wire edge on mild steel is always a pain









Wire-edge removal







youtube.com


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

DevinT said:


> Of course, removing the wire edge on mild steel is always a pain
> 
> 
> 
> ...


to explain the process a little more, it is tempered 1008 and so the file should skate on the edge when the wire edge has been removed. You can stop filing when the file slides smoothly without getting caught on anything.

Or, as I like to put it:

This ain’t aluminum which means the file is actually doing little more to the part than removing the wire edge.


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

I sometime use a big magnet (from an old woofer). The trick is to put it in a plastic bag before use. Then one can collect the particles/nails/screws... by turning the bag inside out like a sock.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

That is a very handy idea!


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## RyanGi (Jan 13, 2021)

That how I clean up swarf after grinding. A paper towel wrapped around a big magnet. Just sweep up the swarf and pull the paper towel off and into the trash. No award on the magnet, easy peasy.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

RyanGi said:


> That how I clean up swarf after grinding. A paper towel wrapped around a big magnet. Just sweep up the swarf and pull the paper towel off and into the trash. No award on the magnet, easy peasy.


It seems to me that I can use this principle combined with another to rectify the problem of not having done this in the first place.

that is to explain that I used a bare magnet to clean up the swarf initially and like you predicted, now the swarf is stuck to the magnet.

however, in my studies on magnets — some folks reading this might be interested to learn — that if one seeks to create a more powerful magnet, then all one has to do is to connect another magnet to it in-series.

so theoretically I should just be able to take three magnets, connected end-to-end, wrapped in a cloth, and bring it near the single magnet and watch all the swarf jump from the weaker force to the stronger one. Then just unwrap the trio and dump the cloth.

I have done this before just never thought to wrap the things in cloth which is brilliant


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

Another option is an electro-magnet.
If made with the right steel, it cease to be magnetic when switching it off. (Or one can do a degaussing with a decreasing alternative current). (using a variable transformer? {like a VARIAC})
One can make the electro-magnet as strong as needed.
Of course this is much much more expensive than an old subwoofer magnet.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Of course, leave it to someone on YouTube to point out the glaringly obvious …

“Take it outside and use an air compressor.”

D’Oh. That does sound simpler. Only problem is I don’t have one. Been looking for one. If anyone has any suggestions.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Got some experience with cutting Ebony with the Shaper Origin today. Woof, tough stuff.

I will often switch back and forth between manually pushing the router and using auto-feed to get a feel for the toughness of wood. The Shaper Origin is much stronger than I am with its auto-feed. If I tell it to go faster than I can actually push manually through a cut, it will do it, and make a mess of things at the same time (burning the bit, tearing out a chunk near an edge, or pulling hard in a turn). So, what I do is, for each kind of material I work, push manually to get a feel for how hard the bit has to work. This influences the speed that I set for auto-feed wherein I set it lower than the speed I observe whilst manually feeling for the right chip load. That way, I can push manually through the whole process but drop to auto-feed for tricky curves that need to be navigated slower.

With that being said, at about 1/16” depth of cut in Ebony I was only comfortable pulling about 7 inches per minute on auto-feed but manually pushing was closer to 8 with bursts up to 11.

There appeared to be a big noticeable change when shifting from traversing cross-grain versus long-grain.

When I dropped to 1/32” depth of cut things were much more manageable and the difference between traversing different types of grain become less noticeable.

I am running the latest version of Shaper Origin firmware with the AutoPass extension, so when it came to pocketing out 1-1/4” diameter hole 3/8” deep in the Ebony, I chose to use a 1/4” diameter cutter and create an adaptive tool path for AutoPass. I told Shaper Origin to cut on-line a spiral whose final outer diameter was a circle 10-thou smaller than the final pocket dimensions, so I could do a clean-up pass on the pocket wall with minimal tool engagement.

The bulk of the pocket was cleared in 5 minutes with one single plunge. It took 13 passes on the spiral because … dang, Ebony is hard. I also wanted to be really gentle as to not tear out the thin walls of the Ebony surrounding the pocket.

pictures to come


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)




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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Just checking in, to see how things were progressing.....


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Progress Report?

Is it making sawdust yet?👍🤘


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