# I realize this is the Non-Shop Area, but Isn't there a political forum somewhere else?



## knothead (Aug 4, 2007)

I mean really…......... There are political forums out there if you want to CONSTANTLY read that stuff, most of it ends up in a disagreement anyway, so why clutter up this board with it?

I admit that I spend more time thinking politics that I should but when i want to think something else…...Say, not politics, I come here for the change of pace.

Just my 2 cents worth


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## ellen35 (Jan 1, 2009)

Amen… and the same about religion too!
(no pun intended!)


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## Rick Dennington (Aug 27, 2009)

+1 for knothead…..I have no interest in hearing or reading about either one…..so I don't. I "el paso" on them post… I don't even bother with them…..


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## RibsBrisket4me (Jul 17, 2011)

Poli and Religo posts are a WASTE of time. Long ago I decided I would not post to them. No matter what, a person is not going to change their beliefs and stance from some web forum.

I agree….wish all poli and religo posts were deleted by a filter.


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## Sawkerf (Dec 31, 2009)

Good grief, there's no pleasing some people. You have to take steps to even get into a "political" thread, and you've taken them to complain about them. That mouse in your hand won't take you anywhere you don't tell it to. - lol


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

I agree with you Knothead(and Ellen35). I get hammered enough on TV with the politics while trying to find news. If it isn't politics it's about some "person" in hollywood being pregnant. After a while it gets kind of like three day old fish…


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Here we go AGAIN


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

the point is that people with common interests like to talk politics. just go to the coffee shop in a logging community you hear whats wrong with the country in a farming community it will be different in a woodworking forum i care what my friends are thinking politically.since we have common ground chances are we see things similar. I care what my seniors think you know the other thing that bugs me is that this was a non topic when everyone was bush bashing but now that its time for the same to come to Obama you all call foul well i say if you don't want to read politics pass it by let the rest of us enjoy the freedom of speech i fought for as a marine


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

"*Forum Topic* - ask a specific question or post a specific request regarding woodworking techniques or tools"

When one goes to make a new forum topic this is the description of what should be in it. So, it is actually a 'shop area'.


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## miles125 (Jun 8, 2007)

Just consider religion and politics in the realm of philosophy. Then consider some woodworkers and artist are a curious and passionate bunch about how their peers view the subject. It's just not for the easily offended who tend to become defensive. But they know who they are and generally talk strictly woodwork. No big deal.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Back to the same old, same old, this subject gets more play than cutting boards and pens - combined.
The Non-Shop area is like an Open House with rules, it's a place to air your frustrations, happiness other interests and much more. You even have a category that tells you it is NOT shop related so that you can avoid it. Really simple to understand and execute choice.
The thing that amazes-es me is that the originator has actually taken part in previous political discussions and other Non-Shop talk discussions, so what are we looking at here? Other WW topic posts and discussions are not allowed to contain non-shop talk - and they don't, so why is there such a hue and cry about non-shop talk in a non-shop talk area?


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

i agree Rex maybe we should re name the off topic area the free speech area if you don't know what it is to not be allowed to speak your mind then you might just give this right away. too much whining about the few political threads that don't dominate here I think i will start a political thread just to see who cant resist putting their 2 cents worth in .


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## dakremer (Dec 8, 2009)

If u don't want to see the politics then don't open the thread. Pretty simple. A petty complaint causing more trouble and drama than the political threads themselves. I don't like the political threads and I hate these threads even more - I don't like the political threads but guess what??.... I don't open them. It's so awesome - its like they aren't even there

These "I hate political threads" are now more numerous than the political threads themselves!!! Haha. Give it a rest. Also if ur computer and mouse are forcing u to read these threads, I'd think about getting a new computer and mouse. If ur hand is forcing u to open and read these threads, I'd go speak to your neurologist.


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## HawkDriver (Mar 11, 2011)

Complaining about complainers…....

I guess it's just one big group of unhappy people


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## KnickKnack (Aug 20, 2008)

I don't want to get into whether or not politics and/or religion should be discussed here, but I do want to address this point, which I've heard many times, and I believe to be untrue…

Poli and Religo posts are a WASTE of time. ... No matter what, a person is not going to change their beliefs and stance from some web forum.

True it may be that very few people will *change* their mind as a result of a web forum discussion. But that's not to say that the people taking part, and the people watching, can't be *learning* stuff the while. 
There's an interesting "belief" discussion going on right now elsewhere. People have made points, supported by references, and I've learned things from that.
There's a gun control discussion just starting, which caused me to look into some things, and I've learned from that. Sure, there's no way (almost certainly) that I'm going to change my stance on guns, but I'm already a better, more informed person for having read/participated in the thread.


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## dakremer (Dec 8, 2009)

HawkDriver I'd complain about your statement but then I'd be complaining about complaining about complainers…...


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

I think the prevalance of political discussion on all boards has to do with the times we are going through right now.

If unemployment were at 4%, China didn't own us, and we weren't "Protecting" Afganistan - - - although they have stated now that if we (USA) were to get involved with Pakistan, that the Afgans would support Pakistan against the USA…. (Thanks for nothing Barry).

We would all be more happy focusing on what we enjoy and just shaking our heads about A-holes inside the DC beltway and their childish ways.

However our economic situation is ugly and getting uglier every day - nobody is immune to its affects thus questions of "ARE WE ON THE RIGHT TRACK? " begins to dominate discussions because our own welfare is on our minds….it isn't just some abstract thought exercise..


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## saddletramp (Mar 6, 2011)

Hank Jr had a song awhile back, "The Coalition to Ban Coalitions"






What more can I say?


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## BrandonW (Apr 27, 2010)

*I guess it's just one big group of unhappy people * LOL, yup.

I would be perfectly content without the political and religious threads. The problem, is that there are so many political threads and they're taking over other good threads. Can't we just have one big long politics thread like the Handplanes one? Honestly, when I hear of someone's wacky political beliefs, I usually think less of them and I don't want to think less of anyone on this website (except pen turners, of course) ;-).

I should point out that I did comment on a religious thread recently and fully accept any indictment from my fellow LJs.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

KnickKnack said it best for me.

Political and religious topics don't have to be about getting anyone to change their beliefs, but they can go a long way towards understanding other people's beliefs.

I personally think the discussion of religion that has been going on over the weekend has been highly interesting and educational.


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## richgreer (Dec 25, 2009)

I make an explicit point to not read or comment on any of the political or religious topics.

It saddens me to see so much of it. I fear it will jeopardize what has been a very good site.


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## EPJartisan (Nov 4, 2009)

good god vonhagen… 
PLease get over yourself.. only YOU brought up gay rights… I am only gay.. and so what? That's not really political nor sexual.. just me.. get over it dude! People on here talk about their husbands .. wives and girlfriends all the time.. Just because I do as well …. it DOES NOT MAKE IT POLITICAL NOR RELIGIOUS … NOR ABOUT SEX. It is about me… and if you don't like me.. then avoid me, but if you are going to comment any more I will start to believe you have a crush on me.


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## Jacoblucas (Sep 28, 2011)

Honestly, it's getting more annoying reading posts like this than the political and religous threads.


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## Sawkerf (Dec 31, 2009)

Rich (and the others who feel that way) -
How will those topics jeopardize this site? I've seen no reduction in woodworking discussions. In fact, I suspect that the existence of those topics has increased the traffic on this site, and possibly the number of people participating in the woodworking topics.

You say that you make an explicit point to not read or comment on those topics, but you take the time to lament about the existence of others who enjoy them. If you buy a newspaper, do you write to the editor complaining about the parts of the paper you don't read? If you pay for cable or satellite TV, do you complain about the channels you don't watch?


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## EPJartisan (Nov 4, 2009)

posts like what Jacob?


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## Jacoblucas (Sep 28, 2011)

People complaining about the religous and political topics, but will create more threads that are "off topic" to complain about it.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

I came here to see what this was about. What is this about?


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## EPJartisan (Nov 4, 2009)

You're absolutely right about that, but that is the nature of the political and religious beast… one person's norm is another person's controversy.. sigh.. again! For me being gay is norm.. being gay in the city.. is like saying I am a human, or I have brown hair.. or I am a Muslim or Atheist… very few bat an eye in my world.. and yet to others out there, my world is pure evil… still that is the nature of the beast of a world wide social forum. You see I can call myself gay.. you can't call me names.. Being gay and calling oneself gay is not a crime nor is it shameful, but calling a gay person names is shameful and a crime in some places. so that is that. YOu can call yourself a Republican or a Christian, but you can not bash another's religion or political beliefs without making an ill forum. and the only reason ANYONE has an issue with me being gay … IS POLITICAL AND RELIGIOUS.


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## GregD (Oct 24, 2009)

Is there no way to come to a happy compromise?

I would be very sad if LumberJocks was unable to function effectively as a woodworking site. If there is no way this can remain a happy woodworking site while tolerating high passion off topic content, then that should go.

I appreciate why it can get unpleasent to look at some of the high passion off topic content.

But the high passion off topic discussions that happen are important to many of us that participate in them. There is a great deal of value in having discussions with people that have a significantly different point of view. Even more value when the topic is of high value. But it is a pretty high risk activity discussing high value - which means high passion - topics when that discussion includes people of significantly different view points.

Lumberjocks provides a space that reduces the risk of these discussions devolving always into mindless rants. They only sometimes get bad. They often succeed to be very useful, thoughtful, exchanges of ideas that are important to the participants. One way Lumberjocks does this is by attracting a wide variety of people that share a common interest. In this case, woodworking. Having something that unites helps us to keep in perspective those issues that divide us. The second way is that the common interest is woodworking. Woodworking appeals to me in part because it reinforces some of those very aspects that help me establish understanding with people of very different points of view.

Woodworking, it seems to me, encourages people to be sensible. I feel safe around woodworkers. Well, maybe not so safe when they are spinning large bowls on the lathe, but everything is ok once the lathe stops spinning. So if someone as sensible as a woodworker is on the opposite side of an important issue than the side I am on, I begin to think that maybe they have a point somewhere that I haven't fully appreciated. Or maybe I have one that they've overlooked. It doesn't always work out that way, but that is no reason to stop trying. My woodworking projects don't often work out, but as long as I stay alive and safe I can give it another try tomorrow.

Woodworking is a loud, messy, and time-consuming effort. Our neighbors and spouses probably look at us often and shake their heads. Why do you need another box? And yet we feel the value of continuing. These high passion off topic discussions are the same. Loud. Messy. Time consuming. Onlookers looking in, shaking their heads, and thinking, what a mess, what a waste. But there is value in continuing. Please let us continue.


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

All in all LJ's must not be too bad. I notice the number of members goes up everytime I sign in.


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## PutnamEco (May 27, 2009)

Boy, they NEVER complain about people posting about woodworking in the off topic areas on the political and religious forums….


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

Conclusion of the day: Group hugs are no longer worth the risk.


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## EPJartisan (Nov 4, 2009)

That's it vonhagen.. you are way out of line.. and you should not be on this site anymore. Obviously you are not here for just woodworking.. you are here to bash gay people… else you just would't care.. yep you have a crush on me.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

EPJ,

You are a woodworker ?, then that's all that matters. Ignore the crap.


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## superstretch (Jan 10, 2011)

*yawn*
http://lumberjocks.com/replies/337330


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## bubbyboy (Jan 10, 2011)

I agree with superstretch, think I will take a nap on the patio it is a beautiful day outside. see ya


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

What you are seeing is woodworkers like many others in this country are seeing out country starting to collapse and we care about our country and our right to make what we want to make. Therefore not just here but everywhare around the country people are starting to talk about what is happening to our country. Would you rather we be quiet and when we no longer have freedom…..then try to talk about it???


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## EPJartisan (Nov 4, 2009)

I kinda have an optimists view of our country. Progress sometimes hurts. Look back 100 years. 10 year olds working in factories, people dying at early ages, unfettered disease, and industrial barons with the country in a death grip. We have come a long way since then… thanks to great education, Progress in science, unions, government protection, and people standing up for themselves rather than being beaten down but the status quo of the wealthy. We have come a long way thanks to a strong middle class. The 60's were a time of change and violence, the 80's a time of set back, the 90's a time of progress (and trite scandals), 2000's a time of war and despair and corruption infected from the Corporate Barons. 2010…. AGAIN people have taken to defending themselves, defending the unions, and working to fix the government. IT is invigorating and promising. All we have to do as a nation is stop fighting over religion and money.. and start caring about one another. Yes this means setting aside all biases and prejudices, which is hard to do, but these social networking sites is making people realize that the guy you hate has more in common with you than you'd like, and that one culture on the home front does not really work in the internet culture where they all clash. In the end, we will all learn from one another and learn to see each other as people.. not democrat, republican, christian, jewish, muslim, male, female (cross gender), gay or straight.

The world has changed and gotten smaller, what we are seeing is an adjustment of peoples worlds and they fight change as much as they hate where they are right now. Sigh… ALL we have to do to turn around the world is simply.. stop trying to make everyone else live like you, and let people find the truth, in their own way and pace, of their individuality just as you want to for yourself. Stop being hypocrites, stop trying to bash other people, stop being selfish and self-concerned more than you have compassion for people over all, stop wallowing in ignorance about your world, and stop antagonizing people just because it was fun to do as a teenager… not agreeing with this is childish. SIMPLY, it's time to grow up and be a better person so the world is better.


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## longgone (May 5, 2009)

I wonder how many political and religious web site have woodworking projects being posted in them?


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## EPJartisan (Nov 4, 2009)

LOL.. easy to answer… none … Politics affects everyone… woodworking affects us special few. All butterflies are insects, not all insects are butterflies.


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## PutnamEco (May 27, 2009)

Re:
"I wonder how many political and religious web site have woodworking projects being posted in them?"

More than you would think.
Jesus was a carpenter….

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=234281
http://www.justplainpolitics.com/archive/index.php/t-4161.html
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x6741203


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

*All we have to do as a nation is stop fighting over religion and money*

Cool so when can we get the artists to stop helping themselves to part of my paychecks to fund their NEA grants?

or did you mean just stop fighting about it and roll over and give in to big brother redistribution? I am bothered by the mindset of "i want to do my own thing, and grow just doing what I like, so I like and support that I get paid by having the government "mug" the others in the country to send me a check so I dont have to compete in the real world"

Obama is happy to get his campaign funded by wall street and then talk out of the other side of his mouth that he agrees with the occupiers…. so When you talk of corruption and government bought off by the robber barrons - look no further than our current POS…. I mean POTUS.

Why aren't any of the robbers from Wall street in jail yet? Where are the investigations after 3 years in office? He could order Holder to investigate and arrest - - but that woudl interrupt his gravy train, where else can he raise the projected 1Billion dollars to get elected?

Or maybe the cronyism - where the billionaire that started Solyndra - from the washington examiner
"in one six year period, during which he increased his net worth enough to land him on the Forbes list of the 400 wealthiest Americans, Kaiser reported taxable income to the Internal Revenue Service just once, totaling $11,699-equivalent to a full-time hourly wage of $5.62."

Or maybe the money that was supposed to Stimulate job growth in the states and reopen a GM plant in Delaware (Bidens home state) the owner of Fiskar took the DOE grant of half a billion and sent it to Finland to build the electric cars instead…all with Obama's blessing.

Didn't want to rant initially but the whole democrats are great and progressive, and republicans are all "war despair and destruction" gets me riled on that revisionist history -

Republicans began with Lincoln, the party was founded to free the slaves from the Democrat masters. Much as it is today where the democrats work to keep blacks in ghettos and locked in a cycle of poverty and dependance on the government. With the Great Society under LBJ, why is it in the last 45 years equality is just as bad now?


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## EPJartisan (Nov 4, 2009)

*Cool so when can we get the artists to stop helping themselves to part of my paychecks to fund their NEA grants?*
HA HA HA HA HA HAHA He he.. oh my that's a good one.. Dr Dirt.. I'll send you the $.0000006 cents taken from your paycheck. A mere 9% of the NEA funding comes from the federal gov. Yet.. it is actually written into the United States constitution that science and art are to be supported by the government for cultural wealth. I say go ahead and cut funding.. won't hurt me or anyone else I know, but museums and theaters, public stages, public art events, and all that will suffer. Those that fund art, know of it's importance and will continue to fund the NEA and people like me for the rest of human existence. In the end … the NEA was made so the public has access to art… so only you and your kids can loose out. So go ahead and cut it.. lol. And again.. you use money to divide us.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

EPJ - 
I agree with your original premise about treating eachother better - however I had several issues

3 points - first I use th NEA as an example - I find that people who are living on government largesse* taken *from the rest of the population (some artists, PBS, NPR and many others) really have little room to talk about dividing people based on money. When people are being paid to just do whatever they feel like from tax dollars, yet after taxes and insurance I *take home *52% of my gross pay…the folks on the dole would like for me to just pay a little more and quit fighting about money. I think saving for my kids college is more important, but am unable to make gains - as tuition increases (~8%/year) far outstrip investment returns (~6%) so you are losing money trying to save for college.

Second: *the NEA was made so the public has access to art* 
When in history has the public NOT had access to art?
This is *not* a result of the NEA making it available Public art even in the US predates the NEA (1965).
Finally:
You really should look at the constitution sometime the one and only inclusion of the word "Arts" is in section 8 of congressional powers.

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries

This only granted that Congress should secure rights to their writings and discoveries….(Known as Patent Protection) And nothing about funding art as a responsibility to provide cultural wealth.
Perhaps you and others see that as a mission of government - but it is NOT part of the constitution.


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## EPJartisan (Nov 4, 2009)

sigh.. to each we will find our own truths. I know patent libraries (spend far too much time in them prior to the internet) and carry a copy of the constitution in my bag. I apologize for not being clear enough for you to understand, but in essence, yes you are correct, in other ways you seem to not get the reality of the words and how they are used; the key argument has always been "useful". People will always argue the funding of cultural progress.. you even seem to want to debate the word "cultural" in between your words, and "cultural Wealth" you seem to not to grasp. We are Americans, we are individuals, we are humans, what we create here is exploration of a wealth that has no price tag. I have grown tired of these argument about taxes and money and the mine mine mine sentiment. "When people are being paid to just do whatever they feel like from tax dollars" ... bigger SIGH! To those doing it,. it is important, even if to you it is not, just because you disagree, does not mean it has no value. And yet, yes we have those that severely abuse it all for themselves, just why we keep voting them into office truly baffles me. Money, money., money always balanced by what we think is important for our culture (which is usually biased by moral beliefs when not viewed with open minded reason) I just can't do these conversations anymore, an endless spiral. Peace Dr Dirt. I have to go help my father move hay.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

EP - you mistake the comma in the constitution for a period.

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries

The congressional ACTION to be taken to "promote the progress" is specified after the comma - is directed to securing for limited times the rights to their discoveries. I am not makeing the argument about USEFUL arts at all. Rather pointing out that the legiaslative role under the contitution role is to PROTECT the inventors rights. and is NOT the role of government to* fund *art. That is a leap some folks would like to believe is intended but that is well outside the single simple sentence in the contsitution itself.

But to proclaim that supporting the arts is written into the constution is simply untrue.

More directly I reject the calls from the people that are sucking on my wallet for their subsidies, demanding I need to pony up the dough and quit bitching about it.


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## EPJartisan (Nov 4, 2009)

I am a moron… no wait a parasite. CR1 one does not burn down the house when one has bedbugs..nor burn the forest down for getting bit by a tick… and over all.. if artists that are good enough in their talent to get a federal grant, be that artist a dancer, a painter, or a woodworker.. well that means you call ALL artists parasites. You just called everyone on LumberJocks, who has been called or considers themselves an ARTIST.. you call a parasite.. everyone who every looked at what you have made and called you an artist.. just called YOU a PARASITE..

How pathetic of you, and I must ask why the hell are you on this site which celebrates the accomplishments and beauty of people's artistic crafts and artistic talents?? if you are just going to insult and demean the importance of our work?


> BUt then , i have seen your profile and you have little to call yourself an artist, so again I ask.. why are you here


?


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## EPJartisan (Nov 4, 2009)

And for you Dr Dirt.. I guess I feel generous and bored today… here is the definition of each word from the same dictionary we all use today.

*Promote* = further the progress of (something, esp. a cause, venture, or aim); support or actively encourage: some regulation is still required to promote competition. To give publicity to (a product, organization, or venture) so as to increase sales or public awareness: they are using famous personalities to promote the library nationally.

*Progress* = move forward or onward in space or time: as the century progressed, the quality of telescopes improved. Advance or develop toward a better, more complete, or more modern state: work on the pond is progressing.

*useful* = able to be used for a practical purpose or in several ways

*Arts* = the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture, producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power: the art of the Renaissance | great art is concerned with moral imperfections | she studied art in Paris.
• works produced by such skill and imagination: his collection of modern art | an exhibition of Mexican art | [ as modifier ] : an art critic.
• creative activity resulting in the production of paintings, drawings, or sculpture: she's good at art.
2 (the arts) the various branches of creative activity, such as painting, music, literature, and dance: the visual arts | [ in sing. ] : the art of photography.
3 (arts) subjects of study primarily concerned with the processes and products of human creativity and social life, such as languages, literature, and history (as contrasted with scientific or technical subjects): the belief that the arts and sciences were incompatible | the Faculty of Arts.
4 a skill at doing a specified thing, typically one acquired through practice: the art of conversation.

Wait.. theres more …


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## EPJartisan (Nov 4, 2009)

*Securing* = 
adjective ~ fixed or fastened so as not to give way, become loose, or be lost: check to ensure that all nuts and bolts are secure.
• not subject to threat; certain to remain or continue safe and unharmed: they are working to ensure that their market share remains secure against competition.
• protected against attack or other criminal activity: the official said that no airport could be totally secure.
• (of a place of detention) having provisions against the escape of inmates: a secure unit for youthful offenders.
• feeling safe, stable, and free from fear or anxiety: everyone needs to have a home and to feel secure and wanted.
• [ predic. ] (secure of) dated feeling no doubts about attaining; certain to achieve: she remained poised and complacent, secure of admiration.
verb [ with obj. ]
fix or attach (something) firmly so that it cannot be moved or lost: pins secure the handle to the main body.
• make (a door or container) hard to open; fasten or lock: doors are likely to be well secured at night.
• protect against threats; make safe: the government is concerned to secure the economy against too much foreign ownership.
• capture (a person or animal): the suspect is secured and in the back of a patrol car.
• succeed in obtaining (something), esp. with difficulty: the division secured a major contract.
• seek to guarantee repayment of (a loan) by having a right to take possession of an asset in the event of nonpayment: a loan secured on your home.


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## EPJartisan (Nov 4, 2009)

*limited Times* = Link

Read it carefully and understand the nuances of why it is always in debate.


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## EPJartisan (Nov 4, 2009)

*Inventors* = a person who invented a particular process or device or who invents things as an occupation.

This must include design and processes created by artists and artisans for that is part of the inventing process.. as well as the many many kinds of patents available to cover both design, idea, and process regardless of occupational origin.


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## EPJartisan (Nov 4, 2009)

*"Exclusive right"* = Link

There NEA is a recognized and respected body of individuals and standards which guarantees the recognition of an artists work fort the sake of that artists professional identity and body of work.. and the recognition that that artist is is of American origin. Again.. read the link and try to understand the nuances.


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## EPJartisan (Nov 4, 2009)

*Discoveries* = the action or process of discovering or being discovered: the discovery of the body | he made some startling discoveries.

And when an artist "discovers" a new way of communicating or expression, a new way of seeing or interpretation… when something new never seen before is born of an artists hands or passion.. yes this is a "discovery"


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## EPJartisan (Nov 4, 2009)

YES the value of Artists AS A PROFESSION, and a cultural expectation of reflection of our culture and the importance of these things can not be separated just because once in a while someone creates something controversial. THE ARTS ARE WITHIN THE CONSTITUTION and are SUPPORTED BY OUR CONSITUTION!!! and you can deny it all you want, but it only makes you look stupid and uneducated. now if you want to debate this go ahead, but debate with logic and reality, not your "mine mine mine" my money my taxes close minded ignorance.
I feel ashamed for coming back here and debasing myself by trying to educate someone who OBVIOUSLY can not or will not learn. AGAIN the federal government only gives enough to cover getting the arts to the public.. a tiny 9% the rest is funded by those who know the value of the arts and they will continue to support the arts.. taking away the NEA funding only hurts the public..the NEA will not go way just because you do not like it … it will not hurt the artist nor stop art world from being prosperous. SO AGAIN go ahead.. only you and yours will loose … not ME or mine.


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## EPJartisan (Nov 4, 2009)

And finally .. how pathetic that republicans show their corruption over and over agin, but taking bribes and changing laws to support corporate welfare.. THEY are the parasites.. as are all the red state who get federal funding because the people who live there always vote against their interests and stay in a perpetual state of fear, ignorance and take money earned in the big cities because they don't went to pay into fixing federal roads, and encouraging federal regulations so that corporations can;t take the land at will, ruin it at will, and lower the standard of living in those red states.. the blue states ALWAYS support the red states. Red states are parasites on the rest of the nation. Inept education.. like Creational Science .. keeps them unable to compete with the rest of the world and society. The stupidity of denying scientific data for what it is.. keeps those states dependent on religion and government money. Parasites.. HA HA.. yes.. artists are the bane of the world.. ha ha. HOW frisking pathetic.


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## steviep (Feb 25, 2011)

I'm certain I am not a parasite. Take a deep breath.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Ahh EP - stick with art not english -

you decided to skip the *BY* in the constitution in you definition - which is a preposition that is a* means of conveyance.*
So the first half all your definitions are correct

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts,

*BY* meaning we are going to specify exactly *WHAT* the congress will do to complete the 'promotion of progress of science and useful arts"

*by* securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries

The constitution does *not* say to support progress of science and useful art *BY* ensuring that artists have grants to bring the fruits of their labor to the public view
So it is still wrong to state that there is a constitutional requirement to FUND science and art - when the actual duty is only to protect the propriety of their inventions not to fund the research.

The goverment DOES fund research both through NEA and other endowments for arts, just like there is funding of science research at national labs, NIH, National Science Foundation etc.

*However those are not CONSTITUITAL PROVISIONS*

You can put forth the supposition of what you think the constitution SHOULD say, but that doesn't mean it does say that.
You mistake my argument as a attack on the arts…only peripherally so, we got into this pissing match because of your claim that the constitution says something that it doesn't…which is a different argument than whether public funding of art is a good thing for society.

I think public art is great - use the picasso in Daley plaza









The sculpture was commissioned by the architects of the Richard J. Daley Center in 1963. The commission was facilitated by the architect William Hartmann of the architectural [3]firm of Skidmore, Owings, and Merrill. Picasso completed a maquette of the sculpture in 1965, and approved a final model of the sculpture in 1966. The cost of constructing the sculpture was $351,959.17, *paid mostly by three charitable foundations: the Woods Charitable Fund, the Chauncey and Marion Deering McCormick Foundation, and the Field Foundation of Illinois. Picasso himself was offered payment of $100,000 but refused it, stating that he wanted to make a gift of his work.*[4]

Hmmmm beautiful public art not paid for by tax dollars! To me this is how it should work rather than a government run entitlement program.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Since you don't read a long post the condense version would work like this:

If I create a mission statement…my personal constitution if you will -

I will support the Occupy Wall street reforms …...BY….. starting a letter writing campaign on facebook and tithe 10% of my income in their support.

But I instead head down to zucotti plaza and attack the police and firebomb Bank of America.

I cannot say that I was constitutionally required to do that. I CHOSE to do that, but the Constitution says I would support with a letter campaign and financial support. *The violence and Arson are not Constitutional requirements*. even if they are :"supporting OWS "

The constitutions specifies only one form of support…. the additional funding is NOT constitutionally required.
Your making that argument only reinforces the perception of what a sad educational system there is in this country.
Which is more than 90% democratic.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

this thread is gone wild

I want an end to all entitlements if your art is good sell it if it sucks and doesn't sell your a starving artist who needs to put their HOBBY into perspective. why should I pay for your lac of talent to make a living. I sell enough furniture to buy all my tools and wood for the next project. that is a hobby if your a real pro artist your goods should support you not another entitlement if a museum has good displays people will pay to see it if not the museum curator should be replaced and a guy who knows what to display to bring in visitors should be there if the museum is a failure it should close not kept open on my tax dollars. epj I don't think that i would buy your art myself but your work is marketable. if you cant make a living doing it you should get a real job and put your hobby on the right place behind work. and stop leaching off the people


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

**And finally .. how pathetic that republicans show their corruption over and over agin, but taking bribes and changing laws to support corporate welfare.. THEY are the parasites.. as are all the red state who get federal funding because the people who live there always vote against their interests and stay in a perpetual state of fear, ignorance and take money earned in the big cities because they don't went to pay into fixing federal roads, and encouraging federal regulations so that corporations can;t take the land at will, ruin it at will, and lower the standard of living in those red states.. the blue states ALWAYS support the red states. Red states are parasites on the rest of the nation. Inept education.. like Creational Science .. keeps them unable to compete with the rest of the world and society. The stupidity of denying scientific data for what it is.. keeps those states dependent on religion and government money. Parasites.. HA HA.. yes.. artists are the bane of the world.. ha ha. HOW frisking pathetic**.

I am afraid your wrong the red states are the right states and when California is a blue state by the city dwellers in sf and la are a big population of immigrants who vote democrat but don't believe in the people they vote for like this 90 percent of Mexicans are democrat yet they vote with a pro-choice party against their catholic beliefs this is sad indeed

the red states are the biggest income producing states except California and its heartland other than la and sf vote red always have republicans are hard working and self reliant they don't take grants to make toys in their shop. they make things that sell all farmers are republican and they provide dems are leaches clear as can be


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## muleskinner (Sep 24, 2011)

*the red states are the biggest income producing states except California *

first number is state GDP in millions and the second number is percentage of national GDP

1 California 1,936,400 13.34 
2 Texas 1,306,432 7.95 
3 New York 1,114,000 7.68 
4 Florida 754,000 5.20 
5 Illinois 644,200 4.44 
6 Pennsylvania 575,600 3.97 
7 New Jersey 497,000 3.42 
8 Ohio 483,400 3.33 
9 Virginia 427,700 2.95 
10 North Carolina 407,400 2.81

Texas seems to be the only solid red state in the top 10 producers.


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## EPJartisan (Nov 4, 2009)

Oh well… I know my career and I will protect my constitutional rights and use them as seen fit, even if you guys don't understand how the real world of art and design works … hold to your ideals and have a great time arguing politics on a forum which solves nothing in that area. LOL


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## EPJartisan (Nov 4, 2009)

Dr Dirt.. we have totally worked on this difference between our views of the importance of Art funding in the past in my blog about Art and Design…. somehow, we are going to reach an understanding between us… eventually.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

Hey, hold on there, everyone!
To respond directly to knotheads original post, here goes: There is quite often a question that gets posted by a less-experienced woodworkers here. Seeing that pretty often nobody seems to be willing to take the time to answer these types of questions, which in my opinion makes the Lumberjocks experience for these newbies less than stellar for them. Just this afternoon, I took the time to assist a member who had questions about a lathe he couldn't identify. I took the time to give him a bit of direction, then went through my eBay archive to find the name of a reliable vendor who could provide him with the necessary spindle adapters so that he could turn bowls. Call me cynical, and indeed I expect nothing for taking the time to offer help, but for chrissakes, a mere acknowledgement would be freakin' nice!! This is why the off-topic stuff is preferred by most*....better to be slapped around in a religious/political thread than to be ignored completely by someone who can't be bothered to acknowledge whoever constructively gives them a bit of help*.... Sheesh. One need not wonder why off-topic mayhem promotes participation, while helpful, mentoring threads fly like a lead zeppelin.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

It's the way the world has sunk to Poopie. 
Our huge membership includes snipers who join to get a question answered instead of wasting money on a book or such.
The LJs that post frequently on various subjects are those that believe in a community where everyone has something to share. Look and see how many "members" we have who have never posted a thing, some been here several years.


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## Magnum (Feb 5, 2010)

poopiekat:

*I expect nothing for taking the time to offer help, but for chrissakes, a mere acknowledgement would be freakin' nice!! * AMEN!!

I Use to do the "HELP" thing a LOT! Find web sites for them, recommend books, pictures by the dozens. I did it because I LIKED to do it! Sometimes an Hour or so for ONE Answer. PHHFFTTT! NO REPLY! I even sent them PM's asking if they were WATCHING their Own Post and that I had replied. Still Nothing!! After a few days they usually got one last PM from me. YOU'RE MOMMA!!

It's also one of the reasons I got off here for 100 or so days. I came back on, and over the last 3/4 Days, answered some help requests . SAME (Censored) THING!!

To me, this is a MAJOR FUNCTION of LJ's!! Provide assisstance to those who require it! Well! As far as I'm concerned these CLOWNS whos MOMMY never taught them to say "Thank You", are ruining it for the Legitimate Guys/Gals who DO need Help!!

From now on, unless I know the Person or they are a Long Time Member with an Active "Activity List" i.e. "Participate". NO MORE! Waste of MY time!

Now I'm gonna go check 2 that I posted to over the last while. No Reply? A Not Nice PM coming their way!!

Please! Anybody. Do NOT tell me to "Just Ignore them.", "Not worth the effort", etc. etc. etc. It is! This is almost a Disease! Nobody says anything. They get away with it AGAIN. Probably think there's nothing wrong with it.

GEEZ! Somebody needs to put More Chlorine in The Gene Pool!!


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## tom427cid (Aug 21, 2011)

Funding art? I suppose it might be a stretch but IMO funding art is sorta like funding schools-funding has been diminished- check out how our students compare to those around the world.Our students have steadily declined in the world standings.
I joined to share/to learn about woodworking. But as was stated earlier-people have no manners and seem to be to dam lazy to get a book and read/study. They want to be an instant expert or be spoon fed the info.
I have read and tried to follow these massive off-topic posts-(curiosity I suppose)-it saddens me to see how poorly people get on.
Seems like everybody has a bitch about something,they are the only one who is correct,etcetc ad nauseum.But doesn't seem like anybody has ANY ideas how to fix the problem.
Not really what I had in mind for a woodworking site.On topic or off.
And I know,as has been demonstrated,some of the talented ones(the true artists IMO) have left. Nobody seems to care.
I consider my self a woodworker/artist. I have survived on my skills. And will continue to do so as long as I can.
My point? Easy,I need to spend more time in the shop and stop deluding myself with the notion that any body here cares.
tom


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## Magnum (Feb 5, 2010)

Tom:

*"My point? Easy,I need to spend more time in the shop and stop deluding myself with the notion that any body here cares.
tom"*

With Respect Tom. *Not True!! *There are a* LOT of us here that DO CARE!! *As I said above …there are a Few here that Spoil It for The Many.

Even after what I said above I saw 2 more "I Need Help" Postings. I jumped right in, but LIGHTLY, so did the Usual Others. IF the Poster comes back, appreciates the help but needs More*....He'll get it! THAT'S one of the Main Functions on LJ's!! *

My advice to you would be stick in the Main Forums that have to do with Woodwork, Tools, Safety, Jigs, etc.

*You get what YOU click on*. This is Non Shop Talk Forum and sometimes it gets a little Rough in here. I come here just to have a "Look Around" and like now will Comment.

*Politics? FORGET IT!!! There are too many Self Proclaimed Experts on that Topic to be bothered trying to "Converse" with.*

*My Point: * Stick to the areas that you feel will be of value to you! *It's YOUR Mouse! Do with it what you may, but please Do Not Tar Us ALL with the Same Brush.*

Rick

PS: I just noticed your comment here…"*Not really what I had in mind for a woodworking site.On topic or off."* The solution to that (*YOUR Problem)* is rather obvious isn't it.


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## muleskinner (Sep 24, 2011)

*All you get is a lot of really bad garbage. *























































One man's trash is another man's treasure.


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## miles125 (Jun 8, 2007)

You can't punish people of means, and yes even the wealthy, without punishing the woodworker. They have been the bread and butter customer base for my 34 years in the business. And i've never seen the business as horrible as the past 3 years while they are targeted and ridiculed. But i suppose emotional envy trumps facts on the ground for some. The upside is there should be a nice backlog of work once the adolescent and emotional thinkers are finally thrown out of power.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

I'm a Republican who's a fan of the Arts and likes gay people. Can I hang out for a while?


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## Manitario (Jul 4, 2010)

Sooner or later a gay, Republican, Christian who converted to Islam and then switched to Judaism who is in favour of taxing the rich and repealing gun ownership rights will post a pro Saw Stop review but question whether he should convert it to 3 phase or 110 vs. 220V or simply sell it and just use handtools, and all of LJ's will implode.


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

Maybe he hasn't "come out" of his shop yet. Maybe he has a retarded 2×4 contest fetish.


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## ShaneA (Apr 15, 2011)

It is interesting how some of these forums follow a long and winding road. I had not checked in on this one in a while. It started as a questioning LJ as a place for political banter. Turned to red state/blue state, art funding, lack of acknowlegement for help and so many other things. Sort of a free flowing forum.

Poopie, I agree with your post, if you help someone out, the least they could do is thank you. It seems kind of rude not to, but such is the world. Of the 30,000 plus "members" here, I wonder what percent is active, and contribute either projects, advice, reviews, or something meaningful? Even if it is political banter. I still think its a great site, but it takes all types. I know I get lots of advice and insight here, and I am thankful for it.

Carry on…


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

Ya I agree Shane it is fine to give help and 88 percent of the time i help people out they answer with a thank you and am grateful they are thankful


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## muleskinner (Sep 24, 2011)

The portrait of the woman is by Dorothea Lange not Walker Evans. She produced it for the Resettlement Administration. I'm surprised it is in a first edition of Evans' book. I hope he attributed it least he appear parasitic. 
The Lincoln Memorial was a commission created and funded by an act of Congress - read tax dollars.
But you are right about the Three Soldiers.


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

Wassamatta, Joe ? You no like ? ;=)


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

I did like Newt's synopsis of OWS

http://nation.foxnews.com/newt-gingrich/2011/11/20/newt-obliterates-ows-go-get-job-right-after-you-take-bath

Since these guys are just angry about the bailouts and represent the 99%


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## ChuckC (May 13, 2010)

I generally never click on off topic posts. For some reason I clicked on this one. Going back to the OP I can't understand why there are so many off topic posts either. I find it strange. I can understand that people like to discuss topics outside of woodworking but when it comes to politics and religion you can't get a group of people in the same room to agree and for some reason people think they can get a stranger on the internet on a message board to agree with them??


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## S4S (Jan 22, 2011)

No , cr1 ,Agreement ? , that would be defined 'monologue ' . Your almost orgasmic narcissism depends on people* not * agreeing with you . It's your daily bread . It seems you take delight in seeing your inventions of clever derogatory words and phrases in print . Therein abides the true nature of your Limbaughnian aspirations . Therein abides your creative outlet . I am glad you have found an outlet here. I suspect you find other dedicated political forums a little too populated for your tastes , and that we woodworkers and artists would be easy fodder . Ah, some drool at the prospect of confrontation . They cry for reason , and offer blood . Like a dog that is swift to the hunt and sure to the kill . Not fascinating or enlightened , but watched carefully by the keeper of the hounds . As to your comments about Art and artists , I can only say that I find your effacacity quite emullgurous . ; )


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## ChuckC (May 13, 2010)

I respectively disagree. I would argue that as a topic becomes more controversial it's existence becomes more meaningless. Let's say I started a "I hate Obama" topic. People would jump on that like crazy. As the thread got longer more often than not people would read the OP, and then jump to the bottom to add their opinion. Where's the "debate" in that? Do you think *I* read every post here? No way!

I have my opinions about politics and religion but I don't come to a woodworking site to regurgitate my beliefs and hope I can turn someones opinion. You would be hard-pressed to do that when the person is standing in front of you let alone on an internet forum.

The seemingly endless Saw Stop debates will never go away either but at least those are related to woodworking.


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## S4S (Jan 22, 2011)

Thank you , cr1 , I am all the things you accuse me of ,and more . Hell , we *all are *on some level and at some given time or another . That's life . Are you angry ? You sound angry . Chill out dude , go make some saw dust or paint a picture or something .Why don't you post your own picture of the way I make you feel . That would be novel . We could just hurl









pictures back and forth .Whew , It's all 'virtual' . You're taking my comments way to seriously .Why not just ignore me? Too hot in the kitchen ? Feel vindicated now ? HA HA HA HA HA .....good boy . Best to stick to your own threads where you have me blocked ,so you don't get so upset : )


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## S4S (Jan 22, 2011)

*You are like a performance artist who doesn't understand art. *
I heard your response to a work of art posted here once, and your comment was that you
admired those who could conceptualize and create an original piece because you had never done so .
Very telling . Those are your words. So your opinion on art as it concerns me , performance art or otherwise , is of small concern to me personally . On the subject of the Democratic party being high-jacked by communists , I believe you may be right as evidenced by this 'commune' near the Mall .


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Presidential hopeful Herman Cain-The Herman Cain PAC site is carrying blog posts that refer to women who have accused the candidate of sex harassment as a bitch and a bimbo.

What a guy…


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Wow mike - somebody posted something hateful on a blog post….say it aint so!! LOL

Your earthshaking headline might be interesting if it was POSTED by Cain, not just that some third party statement.

How about last nights Jimmy Fallon show….

By Caitlin McDevitt, Politico

Republican presidential candidate Michele Bachmann may have walked onto the set of "Late Night with Jimmy Fallon" smiling on Monday, but the music playing during her entrance wasn't flattering.

The Roots, the late-night show's official band, played the song "Lyin' Ass B*tch" by the group Fishbone as the congresswoman waved to the crowd, Spin magazine reports.

See in this case it is the guy *running the show *that is out of bounds….that makes it remotely interesting.

Not just that there is an anonymous blogger. Bet there are soe nasty Palin comments on the Drudge report too….Yawn!


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## Magnum (Feb 5, 2010)

Who the hell is "********************lumberjocks"? LMAO!! Probably someone else who's clued into the fact that you can change your name anytime you want to.

I'll be back in a day or so, hopefully to see another Verbal Barage between "What's His Name #1" and "What's His Name #2"

*Could make the same argument about breathing. It is rather repetitive is it not?* Well? Maybe. All Depends on whether you're Coming or Going and your Fingers don't have a lot to do with it.

*Actually I've had some heart changing moments about the SS and all of it based on the various dialogs I've read on the forums where people were holding forth with great passion.*

Now we're talking!! Hitler was a very Intelligent Guy! Some say that it was His Connection with Extra Terrestrials that got him so far so fast!!

*It becomes larger than it started out. This is healthy.* WOW! You got that one right also! If it doesn't it's HER Fault not Mine!! That Old "Woodworking Line" ...... "You wanna play Mortise And Tenon?" Gets 'em everytime!!

Well! I gotta go now! This is about as much fun as a Colonoscopy with a Tire Iron!!

Ta Ta Gentlemen!!


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## Porchfish (Jun 20, 2011)

Don't want to complain, don't want to compromise, I want to see and hear it all ! Period. If I don't like it I will ignore it, but I'll be damned if I will relinquish my right to decide for myself ! Bring it all and post it all and shut the hell up !

Now I sincerely do wish everyone has a happy turkey day, and has the opportunity to enjoy companionship and conversation with friends and family ( see, remember ? , You let uncle Fred speak his mind while you whistled the opening to Mahler's 5th in your head) Yep ! Tolerance is the salve for all affronts and indignities, imagined or otherwise. 
"Controversial" is frightening to some , but Life Blood for those of us still alive !. Yes ! It is life, and it is alive, and it is essential ! Give to others what you reserve for even the lowest of your family ! but please do remember that in the last analysis it is oft' said that it is far better to keep your mouth closed and appear a fool , than to open it and remove all doubt. The evidence of the "truthiness" of the saying abounds above in personal bigotry and intolerance spewed by some here, but isn't it fun to see the inconsistencies ! Quoting Newt for Chrissake! someone needs to Pull their head out for a little fresh air….that's so 90's ! So "let it be" ! We are all clan and kin !


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

CR1: Tim McVeigh succeeded. Stop 'em before they blow up a city, not after..

Well you sure haven't done much stopping all those Right Wing abortion doctor terrorists/murderers… just sayin'


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## Porchfish (Jun 20, 2011)

raspberries all !


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Come on CR1, you can do better than THAT. Where's YOUR proof?

FUN FACTS:

Timothy McVeigh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_McVeigh
Timothy James McVeigh (April 23, 1968 - June 11, 2001) was a United ..... *McVeigh was a registered Republican* when he lived in Buffalo, New York in the ...

Joe Scarborough - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
...represented Michael F. Griffin, the accused killer of abortion doctor David Gunn, in early to mid 1993. ... Scarborough assisted Griffin in choosing a trial lawyer from the many who … In 1994,* Scarborough won a tough Republican Party primary* for Florida's 1st … Energy and Housing and Urban Development, ...

Nebraska Bill Could Legalize Killing Abortion Doctors
Feb 24, 2011 - Eight doctors have been murdered by anti-abortion extremists since 1993, and … where someone murders an abortion doctor as part of a conscious plot. ...* number of abortion related bills that newly elected Republican state legislators …*

South Dakota Moves To Legalize Killing Abortion Providers
Feb 15, 2011 - The *Republican-backed legislation*, House Bill 1171, has passed out of … Since 1993, eight doctors have been assassinated at the hands of … is permissible under law in many states-and making the protection of a fetus an …


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## Magnum (Feb 5, 2010)

WudnHevan:

I followed a few of "F--lumberjocks" threads and Postings. He's changed ALL the Pics for his Projects with stuff like "A F--ing Snail" etc. Prior to his Present name he was/is "donewithlumberjocks" and "vonhagen" and "Blaire".

I'm SORT OF Surprised that "Management" hasn't taken ALL his Postings and or Account down. Don't know if he's still here or not??

Oh well. Doesn't really matter to me. Adds a little "Comic Relief" to this other JUNK on here.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

CR1, I did NOT know Gabby Giffords was an "abortion doctor" Hmm…

CR1: So ummmm The nut bag who shot Giffords being a leftist loon means…

That was an accusation from Tea Bagger Founder Judson Phillips in a poor attempt to take the offensive (actually defend the Baggers) from being blamed for Giffords' shooting. BTW and more accurately, that really was a rather poor attempt at:

Rove Tactic #3: Accuse Your Opponent of What He/She is Going to Accuse You Of


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

Mike how do you live with your self your a Mexican catholic pro abortionist no wonder you have no credibility on the political front you are a walking catch 22. you are really screwed up man I think you hurt your head in that 200k fall of yours because you couldn't hold a candle to a flea on the ass of Carl Rove he it a million times the thinker you will ever be now your a terrorist supporter too. I am shocked at this even from a left wing whack job like you .


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Atlas Shugs!? Ha! You claim to be a lawyer and you want to use Atlas Shugs as a source?! What a hoot…

And to beat THAT, here goes the Dud going all Godwin's Law on me! Wow! What a day!


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

come on MIKE AT LEAST STOP THE NAME CALLING it is DUDE grow up

now tell me i am wrong mike i know your catholic and I know Catholics are pro life yet you support abortionist positions how do you live with your self


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## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

Rick-remember to flag things that you see that are inappropriate on here. 
The snail images were obviously added after the original posting of the projects. I wouldn't have seen it if I hadn't happened to see your comment. 
We rely on members using the flag system to keep the site appropriate.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Dud: "come on MIKE AT LEAST STOP THE NAME CALLING it is DUDE grow up"

*You don't even know YOUR OWN friggin' name Lance, *YOU are the one who needs to grow up. BTW, you are NOT EVEN a Jeff Bridges… Dream on…


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

@cr1 it is clear newt is a brilliant man he sees the big picture I am just concerned if the masses are smart enough to vote for a heavy man based on his brilliance he would be a great president i would have liked you to post about him on the president thread


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## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

Please remember to be respectful everyone - between each other as well as to the original poster.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

CR1, THAT is why I blocked YOU. You are just a debater and nothing more. Regardless of the point made, you take the counterpoint and flip-flop at will during the resulting banter.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

@CR1 YA me too the constant name calling has render the conversation usless I love a great debate with a logical reply but the constant cut and paste information from god know where is boring and not productive I am done too I am sure many others will join in the trend once they realize the nonsense and the non productive I would like to talk to you about presidential choices i like some of Romneys ideas but am still undecided at the moment do you think newt has a real chance to get the nomination he is someone i could vote for


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

GREAT! So you folks will take it OFF LINE. Just DO IT! Thank You!


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Yeah, good ol' Newt, the "family's values" candidate:

Several newspapers are now reporting that Newt Gingrich is dating and basically living with Callista Bisek, a "willowy blond Congressional aide 23 years his junior." Biske, 33, has been spending nights at Gingrich's apartment near the Capitol and has her own key. In an amazing act of hypocrisy, *Gingrich was apparently dating Bisek all during Clinton-Lewinsky adultery scandal, even as he proclaimed family values and bitterly criticized the President for his adultery.*

Reporters and other Washington insiders have known about this relationship since 1994, even before Gingrich became Speaker of the House, but did not have any solid proof to report. In 1995, Vanity Fair magazine described Bisek as Gingrich's "frequent breakfast companion." Gingrich was married to Marianne Gingrich during all of that time, and just filed for divorce in August 1999.

*Newt is apparently trying to create a new hybrid form, Christian adultery.* According to MSNBC, Bisek sings in the National Shrine Choir, and Newt would often wait for her at the Shrine of the Immaculate Conception, listening to her sing while he read the Bible.

This is hardly the first time Newt has cheated, either. "It was common knowledge that Newt was involved with other women during his [first] marriage to Jackie. Maybe not on the level of John Kennedy. But he had girlfriends-some serious, some trivial."-Dot Crews, his campaign scheduler throughout the 70s. One woman, Anne Manning, has come forward and confirmed a relationship with him during the 1976 campaign. *"We had oral sex. He prefers that modus operandi because then he can say, 'I never slept with her.'*"

Kip Carter, his former campaign treasurer, was walking Newt's daughters back from a football game one day and cut across a driveway where he saw a car. "As I got to the car, *I saw Newt in the passenger seat and one of the guys' wives with her head in his lap going up and down.* Newt kind of turned and gave me this little-boy smile. Fortunately, Jackie Sue and Kathy were a lot younger and shorter then."


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