# Stealing Design?



## ScottKey (Jun 21, 2007)

I have recently found two tables that I would love to have. The problem is that they are European designed and crafted meaning they come with a hefty price tag. My initial thought for a post was to ask opinions on how to make these minimalist joints rigid enough for daily use; however, I started to wonder about the ethics of using these designs to build from.

I know that design cannot be copyrighted, but I wanted to know your thoughts.

Also, if anyone has thoughts on the joinery, I would appreciate your insight.

Tables both by e15:
 
Table 1: ta04
=86]Table 2: ta01


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## stevenhsieh (Jan 8, 2010)

That is how people get their ideas, they do not steal, they change.


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## Millo (Jan 19, 2010)

To be honest, these are so simple I don't think anyone can accuse you of stealing their idea. Also, I can't remember the exact quote, but Picasso once said something like: "a bad artist copies, a good artist STEALS".

I can't help you with the joint issue, sorry.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I would say they are awfully simple to not have been made a thousand times before I suppose an angle iron joint and a lot of screws and glue would be in order to keep the dining table standing. The coffee table should hold without angle iron )


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## hObOmOnk (Feb 6, 2007)

Look at designs for "Parsons Tables."


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## tenontim (Feb 24, 2008)

The joinery on the first table is basic mortise and tenon. The legs being level with the top tends to leave the design open for joint separation on the ends, due to seasonal wood movement. Plywood, veneered top might work best, or leave gaps for wood movement.

The second table gets most of it's strength from the stretcher that runs down the middle of the top, which isn't much. I think if I were building this table I would use dovetails. I would make a poor design a little stronger.

The problem with a lot of the contemporary styles is they won't stand the tests of time, due to poor engineering. Good luck.


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## ScottKey (Jun 21, 2007)

Tim-

Do you have any experience with any kind of metal reinforcement inside of joints? I'm just wondering if to increase rigidity they could have imbedded some kind of angle.

I may just have to take a trip to a fancy modern furniture store and make all the clerks uncomfortable by crawling on the floor under their tables to see how they're made.

I think you are right about modern design often being more about the aesthetics than about the practicalities. I just know there has to be a way to make these things rigid without adding any noticable components.

To avoid a $5,000+ price tag, I'll do some thinking.

Thanks for your thoughts Tim.

Any other thoughts?

-Scott


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## Dennisgrosen (Nov 14, 2009)

a little design change and they are yours 
the constuction on them have been made before ,more than once

Dennis


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## SnowyRiver (Nov 14, 2008)

I dont see any problems with a design copy. You are still building the piece. Norm on The New Yankee Workshop does this all the time. Most, if not all, of his designs on the show are copied (sometimes modified slightly) from other pieces he has found.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

I'm not going to hold my breath waiting on somebody to prosicute you for it. Go ahead and make the tables, IMHO.


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## Gregn (Mar 26, 2010)

These designs are something that many woodworkers would make in their shops without even thinking they were copying someones design. As for joinery these are basic joinery technics and as Tim has stated these joints appear to in this case be subject to failure over time. As for using metal reenforcement inside the joints in my opinion would be futile. As for the mortise and tenon joints they can be pegged with wooden dowels. The second table would have more rigidness with the middle stretcher lower down as opposed to being next to the top, of course this changes the design but would give more strength to the table.


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## WoodLe (Sep 29, 2010)

Everyone copies to a certain degree. Plus, like it was said, I think you can make anything you want for your own personal use.


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## TheDane (May 15, 2008)

PoorCollegeStudent-If your intention is build them for personal use (and not to sell), I don't see any reason why you can't use the photos you showed as a basis for your own design.

A lot of us build reproductions or interpretations of pieces done by the old masters. If you build them and post them somewhere (like here on LJ's), you should acknowledge the creator or company that did the original design (e.g. 'Based on a design by Xxxxxx').

-Gerry


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## ND2ELK (Jan 25, 2008)

Are they done yet. There are hundreds of this style out there. These are knock down pieces that are put together with metal dowels and cam lock connectors. Woodworkershardware.com sells them. Even if you do not want knock down furniture you could use the cam locks and glue the joints. No clamps are needed for assembly and you have double the strength. Have fun!

God Bless
tom


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

I'd like to provide a useful answer to your question, but …

a) I think everybody else has, and …

b) I'm still very choked up over the pricing of those tables, from the source you linked to :-O


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## ScottKey (Jun 21, 2007)

ND2ELK-

Really appreciate your comments. Cam locks = cheap IKEA furniture - correct?

That's at least where I've seen them used.

Maybe common knowledge, but does anyone know of a source for clever fasteners?


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## SCOTSMAN (Aug 1, 2008)

As far as I know to be in breach of copyrite you would need 
A to make them exactly the same and claim them to be genuine originals 
B offer them for sale with falsehood I e to say they are originals.
If you make one for yourself or a friend then you're not in breach of copyrite as long as money does not change hands and even then you can say they are a copy and make it totally clear they are your own work not authentic whatever .if you change even one part of the design they are not pure copies and anyway I very much doubt that the original maker didn't steal the joint design from many people there's nothing new.Carry on with a clear conscience my 3 cents LOL I make stuff I see in books television etc all the time,And I have never gone to jail yet. Alistair


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## Cozmo35 (Feb 1, 2010)

It's called "Reverse Engineering" Looks like a mortise joint with the top notched and laid on top. JMO


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## mvflaim (Dec 8, 2009)

PoorCollegeStudent,

You're so ethical you'd make a terrible business student. lol

Just make the tables, don't worry about copyright infringment.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Do NOT make any tables with FOUR legs or stools with THREE legs as you would be breaking the law and would be subject to prostitution and jail time! Play it safe and find another hobby…


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

There is nothing unique about those tables There really isn't design other than what many many folks have made before. Ikea probably sells one like them for a little more than material cost.


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## toddc (Mar 6, 2007)

That design is not anything new under the sun, they got their idea from somebody else AND they are mass producing and selling it. What is anybody going to do if you make them for yourself anyway?

I make it no secret that some of my work is inspired by something that is already out there. Some of it is entirely original but if someone looked hard enough there might be something somewhere that is similar.

I also have no problem if I inspire other people, that is my goal.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

There are a lot of things that are original to the inventor. Then, he finds out some one else he didn't know of did it first ;-))


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## beckerswoodworks (Dec 26, 2009)

I read a really interesting article about this subject recently: http://blog.custommade.com/2010/10/intellectual-property

It basically says that you can copyright specific drawings and photographs but you can't copyright a piece of furniture.

If your building something thats a direct copy of, or just partially influenced by, someone elses design then I think it would be unethical not to give proper credit but it's never unethical to copy someones design.


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## alba (Jul 31, 2010)

Scott,
have you thought of getting a plan for a table then building it.
Sometimes the simplest looking designs are not the easiest to make.
Knock down can be a real skill and if it looks simple it may not have any strength.
There are many classic designs that use the simplest of tools.
I may even have some old drawings if that would help?

Jamie


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## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

... and re: crawling underneath, 
Because of what I've learned on LumberJocks, I crawl underneath to check out how things are made. I want durability. 
So "crawl" to your heart's content.


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## becikeja (Sep 12, 2010)

The copyright discussion seems to be satisfactory. The table joints seem straight forward, But I'm still lost on the joint used in the bench. The one where the 2 side seats are connected only to the back and one outside edge. The inside edge and the front float. How is this joint strong enough? There has to be something inside the wood, a mortise and tennon would never hold as a bench in this design. Would it???


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## Greedo (Apr 18, 2010)

every modern table in europe looks like that, i oncer went to a furniture shop and looked under the tables to see that everything was screwed together with special hardware. i think they just cut parts to length and screw them together. they must be cracking out hundreds a day, nd it's probably made in malaysia aswell


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## miles125 (Jun 8, 2007)

Knock down (kd) fasteners aren't neccessarilly cheap or inferior. Theres some around (mostly european sources) of very high quality and of surprising strength.


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## ScottKey (Jun 21, 2007)

miles-

you don't happen to know any websites for these do you? I could take some time filtering through McMaster Carr.

All-

Thanks for your comments. There are some critics of modern design I take it! I will say that there are some inferior designs within modern design; however, if it's the aesthetic you'd like to acheive, it's worth using a little creativity and extra effort. I am a big fan so I'm definitely going to find a way to do it and make it rigid.

Appreciate it!

-Scott


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## alba (Jul 31, 2010)

Scott, I'm not knocking the designs.
My son did one recently and did dovetails that looked great and very sturdy. I think finger joints would also give a nice clean and strong look.
Another way is to put it on hinges then a stretcher, very sturdy quick and cheap to do.

Jamie


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## bigfish_95008 (Nov 26, 2009)

I can a little new here - GO BUILD!


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*becikeja* It looked to me like there was a piece of angle iron or other hardware holding the 90 in addition to what ever they did for joints.

I agree that serviceability is a big issue with this design.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*MsDebbieP* Guess I'm a crawler! ;-)) When we were buying houses long before inspections were even thought of, let alone, required by mortgage companies, RE agents told me I was the only guy they ever had that looked in attics and under houses.


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## becikeja (Sep 12, 2010)

I think if we are honest, everyone on this site is a crawler. If you're not into understanding how things work and creativity, you are probably not a woodworker.

Now I have to build one of these benches. I can't stop thinking about how to make that joint.


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## Greedo (Apr 18, 2010)

on the european Bosch site you can find video instructions of several projects uncluding one of these tables:
http://www.bosch-do-it.co.uk/diy/houseofbosch/index.shtml

it's actually not bad, the tools used are of the green Bosch line, cheaper DIY versions of the blue line


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## rivergirl (Aug 18, 2010)

Have fun building your tables.  Can't wait to see the finished project.


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## Knothead62 (Apr 17, 2010)

A table is a top and at least four legs. The size and shape of those are almost infinite in variety.


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## AaronK (Nov 30, 2008)

to echo the others: there is no problem with you building these. any problem would arise from you trying to pass these off as authentic branded works by those companies. but you wont do that.

As far as the joinery goes, if you do visit a modern furniture store I believe that you might leave unimpressed. I visited a couple recently and saw that the joinery was done with metal fasteners or quite sloppy wooden joinery.

there have been some good suggestions here for the joinery, and you could probably make these tables a lot better than these manufacturers.


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## MikeGager (Jun 15, 2009)

i especially like this

"During the seasoning of solid wood, the legs form their characteristic cracks, which make every table unique."

really? i mean… really?


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## bobkberg (Dec 26, 2009)

Hi PoorCollegeStudent, I have a few thoughts on the subject as well. If you have a circular saw, you can make the joints by basically cutting REALLY BIG biscuits out of plywood, and putting them into the joint in mortise-tenon style. The large gluing surface will substantially add to the strength of the joint. See my latest project for a functionally similar joint (Cantilever Table). I'm a major fan of producing nice things from cheap materials.

I have also reinforced joints by drilling all the way through the joint itself and embedding one or two long dowels some inches into the wood on either side. If you cut and sand the dowels on the outside of the leg, that also adds an interesting design touch. Just be careful to make sure that your drill bit (auger most likely) matches the diameter of the dowels being used. Commercial dowels tend to be a bit undersized.

Good luck!


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## JonathanG (Jan 18, 2010)

I'd also utilize dovetails on the second table and I actually have something similar to this, only smaller, on the drawing board right now and I plan on using dovetails for the ends.

If this is simply for your personal use, you can copy them exactly and shouldn't have to worry about prosecution. However, as others have stated, I certainly think you could modify the design, at least for joint strength, if for no other reason, as there does appear to be areas that could be made stronger, simply by using different joinery.

Then you'd have similar items, design-wise, that would be superior in strength.


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## Domer (Mar 8, 2009)

I build mostly Arts and Crafts furniture. There is a local store that carries Stickley furniture. I go there frequently to see how things are made. They are very gracious in allowing me to snoop even though they know what I am doing.

They site Gustov Stickley's attitude that home craftsmen should be able to copy their designs. Besides, several people from the factory have said that they love for wood workers to come in and look. 90% of the spouses are not willing to wait for us to eventually build something.

I have seen however on blogs like this where people have bought items, taken them home to copy and then return it to the store. I think that is very wrong. I also think taking photos without permission of the store owner is wrong.

Domer


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## Pop (Aug 6, 2007)

Long ago in a Galaxy far away I was a graphic & dimensional designer. As such I got sent to copyright school. Furniture design CAN be copyrighted along with a toy design or a little plastic animal design. as a graphic artist I kept 2 file cabinets as a morgue of stuff that caught my eye for future use. Where do you think designers get ideas? They steal-steal-steal. Picasso was right. You change their idea into your idea. Then you copyright it again.

When it comes to classic furniture design from the 1700s I think that's out of copyright. Now! don't make a Roycroft for money. They most likely have their designs nailed down. But! you can change it & it's yours.


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