# Plane iron won't reach front of mouth



## MuseumGuy (Aug 30, 2015)

Hi Everyone:

I'm a beginning woodworker with a handplane problem that I can't find an answer to, no matter how much I scour the internet. I'm guessing the answer must either be really obscure, or really obvious. Here goes.

*I can't get the cutting edge of my plane iron close enough to the leading edge of the mouth. *

Necessary details:

1. This is an old smoothing plane. Sole is a little over 10" long. There are no "Stanleys," SW heart logos, patent dates, size numbers, or anything else on it that tells me it's a Stanley. The stamp on the iron says "Hercules," but I don't know if it's the original iron (garage sale find).

2. I have lapped, hollow-ground, and honed the iron. I have flattened the face of the frog.

3. There is no frog-adjusting screw, but as you can see from the pictures, the frog is adjusted as far forward as it will go. Its front edge is just shy (maybe 1/64"?) of the back edge of the mouth.










4. With the plane assembled, I have to adjust the iron all the way down to the limit of its depth (just before the depth adjustment wheel falls off of the threads) just to get it to protrude from the mouth.










And when it does, it is *nowhere near the front edge *of the mouth-the opening is nearly 1/8".










5. Length of the plane iron is 7 5/16".

I want to say that the plane iron is just too short (it's probably seen its share of re-grinding), but I can't wrap my head around the geometry of that. As I'm picturing it, a longer iron would need less depth adjustment to protrude from the mouth, but it doesn't seem like a longer blade would be more likely to reach the front of the mouth.

Or is the mouth just too large?

Or is the frog sitting too low on its rails? Maybe it's been ground down too, and I need to put washers or something underneath it?

Thanks in advance for any help you might be able to provide.


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## RichardHillius (Oct 19, 2013)

A thicker iron like one of the Hock or Lie Nielsen ones would close up the gap but yea the mouth is to large given the frog adjustments. Does it look like the mouth was widened with a file? Or maybe someone mix and matched parts to build a plane? Or it never was a very tight fit. I have a Buck Bothers plane I bought before I knew better that has a huge mouth that will never be a smoother plane. I could turn it into a rough work plane like a Scrub pretty easily but other than that it's never going to be a good finish work plane.

A longer iron won't help you here as it sounds like you can get the iron cutting there is just to much of a gap in front of it right?


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## derekcohen (Jul 15, 2007)

I would check the chip breaker. It make be incorrect for the plane, preventing the blade moving forward enough.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## fuigb (Apr 21, 2010)

Hard to tell, but previous ownet having opened the mouth with a file is possible. Try to shim things as you describe.


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## bearkatwood (Aug 19, 2015)

Sounds like you got a Frank-n-plane.


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

Sounds like a chip breaker prob if the iron still had some length to it.

Me personally, I worry about the angle of the chipbreaker (80deg) and proper mating of the chip breaker to the iron. I don't worry about the mouth being closed. I just line up the edge of the frog with the Edge of the mouth to fully support the iron.


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## Johnny7 (Jun 1, 2015)

.


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## Clarkie (May 11, 2013)

Hercules was manufactured by Sargent plane. Go on the web and find the measurements and see if everything you have there is for that particular plane.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

My first thought was that it's not the original frog, but it could be any number of things that have been mentioned.


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## Deycart (Mar 21, 2012)

Hercules planes like Clarkie said were made by Sargent in the 50s-60s right before they stopped making them. These were the lowest quality planes they made akin to the Handyman series from Stanley. The Hercules is a bit nicer than a standard handyman though. I deal in hand planes all the time and I can tell you that you have all the correct parts.

This plane was never meant to be anything other than a door stop. But that doesn't mean you can't tune it to be an ok plane.

You may want to look at the holes in the frog that the screws pass through to attach it to the base. There might be a bit of flashing from the casting that wasn't cleaned up and prevents the frog from moving up forward. You can also lengthen the slot if there isn't anything to remove.

That being said, 1/64" of an opening is fine for smoothing in most woods. Your edge quality and they way you set the chipbreaker is going to determine the quality of the surface well before the mouth size will. A tight mouth is only needed when you are working with something with really twisted grain.

A sharp edge is the most important factor!


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

Maybe the iron is past it's usable length.If it is then that's good the tool is a good user.An old tool with a original new iron or long iron hasn't eared it's strips!


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## BubbaIBA (Nov 23, 2011)

If I read your question correctly, the iron will extend and make shavings but you are worried because with the frog full forward and co-planer with back of the mouth the gap between the front edge of the iron and the front of the mouth is greater than you would like. Is that a correct reading of your question?

If it is, it is for the most part a non problem as far as the plane's ability to take fine shavings even in difficult wood. The biggest factors for controlling tear out are sharpness of the iron and the setting of the cap iron (chip breaker).

Here is a video from the English Woodworker demonstrating setting the cap iron to control tear out: http://www.theenglishwoodworker.com/cap-irons-tear-out-video/

ken


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## MuseumGuy (Aug 30, 2015)

Thank you all very much for your help.

After I read through everyone's responses, I went back to my workbench and tried the experiment that Johnny 7 mentioned. With two washers beneath the frog, and the iron slid down so far that the chip breaker rests a full 1/4" back from the edge, the cutting edge could be made to reach the front of the mouth (which does appear to have been filed out). As noted, you can't actually use the plane this way, but it did provide diagnostic info.

It looks like my best bet is to shim the frog (with something more substantial than washers) and get a new (longer) iron. I'll check the original specs and shop around.

Thanks again to all of you for your help.

Incidentally, when I went back to look at your post, Johnny 7, all that's left of it is a singe period. Weird. I had to go back to my email notifications to find your message.


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## RichardHillius (Oct 19, 2013)

I'm not sure how a longer iron is going to help you unless it's not long enough to engage the cut today or you are trying to create a very aggressive cutting plane? You are not going to be able to advance the iron past a certain point anyways unless you are trying to make a scrub plane in which case the mouth opening doesn't matter. If you get a new iron what you want is a thicker iron that will push the tip forward in the body more and close up the mouth without needing to advance the iron a ton. The difference a thicker iron can make is pretty significant. I have a Stanley #6 where after replacing the iron with a Hock model I had to not only push the frog as far back as it will go but also file out the mouth a bit. The Hock was probably twice the thickness of the original Stanley iron and my Lie-Nielsen's irons are about the same so I know both those brands would at least help. If it will be enough I don't know but it might be worth giving it a try and worst case you have a good solid iron when you start to work on shimming the frog.


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## SignWave (Feb 2, 2010)

The WoodRiver V3 plane blades are .0125" thick and will fill the gap and also extend further. It's decent steel and a fair price.


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

I wouldn't do that. Probably gonna get a bunch of chatter if you put washers underneath the frog. I'd suggest taking deycarts advice.

You're trying to turn a pinto into a mustang and it isn't gonna happen.



> Hercules planes like Clarkie said were made by Sargent in the 50s-60s right before they stopped making them. These were the lowest quality planes they made akin to the Handyman series from Stanley. The Hercules is a bit nicer than a standard handyman though. I deal in hand planes all the time and I can tell you that you have all the correct parts.
> 
> This plane was never meant to be anything other than a door stop. But that doesn t mean you can t tune it to be an ok plane.
> 
> ...


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## Johnny7 (Jun 1, 2015)

Just a post to clear things up …

My post *did not* advocate shimming anything with washers.
The advice given, at a time when I thought the chipbreaker was at fault, was to slide the chipbreaker further up the iron and re-tighten. If the OP was then able to get sufficient travel, he'd know that the edge-to-slot distance on the chipbreaker was the problem.

After realizing that I misunderstood the OP's original complaint, I simply deleted my post. (If you try to delete an existing post by "editing" it, you must replace the text with something-hence the period)


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

You could move the frog FORWARD a hair. Then, take a flat file, and using the frog's face as a guide, File the "ramp" back until it is coplanar with the frog. Usuing the frog's face as a guide, will help keep the angle of the ramp matching the frog's angle.

Two: Again with a file. This time, file the top edge of the slot in the chip breaker, where the "Y" yoke's tab goes. Maybe a 1/64" or so. Doesn't need to be much.

Round burr in a Dremel: Elongate the two slots where the frog's bolts go. Last resort. What will hinder this, is the head of the bolts, and their washers. May not have enough room left for this.


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## BurlyBob (Mar 13, 2012)

Another option is to find yourself a decent Stanley #4 type 11 or newer, clean it up, sharpen it up and get to using it. Just a thought !


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

I'm thinking you've got a plane put together with different parts.

Or a cheap plane.

My advise to a newB is almost always forget the flea markets, garage sales and especially Ebay.
Instead, spend 150 bucks, get a WoodRiver #4 and you're in business with a superior plane.

I don't know what you're time is worth to you, but consider that you'll have a plane you will know is right, with a superior cap iron/blade, and a warranty that will get you to work.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

And NOW we have the Wood River Schill….

Frog may not be by the same maker, happens with FrankenPlanes

Other frogs are available all the time on feebay. Just match one to the base casting ou have on hand. Bolts and all other parts should just cross right over to the next frog.

What MIGHT have happened is the original frog may have been broken at one point, they found a close but not exact fit in another frog. Replace the broken one with the "new" frog, found it didn't quite work, and decided to sell it. Now, all you have to do is find the correct frog. nhplaneparts.com has frogs. Tell Eric what model base casting you have, and he might just have the correct one. At under $20, with lightspeed shipping.

Besides, just because one spends $150 for a plane, never guarrantees it is a "Good" one.


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## BubbaIBA (Nov 23, 2011)

rwe2156 has some of the best advice for a person new to hand tools: "...I don't know what your time is worth to you, but consider that you'll have a plane you will know is right, with a superior cap iron/blade, and a warranty that will get you to work."

If you want to collect tools there is nothing wrong with going down "Rust Avenue" but if you want to learn to use hand tools to work wood and you know….strange concept, make things….Starting with good quality new will speed up the learning curve.

All that said, if I can read English and there are some doubts, the OP is not concerned that the iron does not reach wood but the mouth is more open than he wishes. For myself I question why the OP is worried about having a tight mouth, but I expect I know why.

I've heard most of my woodworking life a smooth plane should have a tight mouth to help control tear out. That advice is almost as good as "starve a fever, feed a cold" or is it the other way around. Bottom line, of the factors controlling tear out, a tight mouth is way down the list. The most important factor controlling tear out is a properly set cap iron on a sharp iron.

Free advice (you know what that is worth): Follow rwe2156's advice and/or learn to set your cap iron and quit worrying about the size of the mouth. Within reason, and from the photos I would say your plane's mouth is well within reason, the size of the mouth makes no never mind.

ken


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

> And NOW we have the Wood River Schill….
> 
> Frog may not be by the same maker, happens with FrankenPlanes
> 
> ...


Listen to what you just said, Bandit.

Look for this, hope this fits, etc etc on a $15 dollar plane?

I'm not a "schill" for WoodRiver my friend.
For some reason lots of Stanley guys have a problem with my advice.
Sorry.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

> Hi Everyone:
> 
> I m a beginning woodworker with a handplane problem that I can t find an answer to, no matter how much I scour the internet. I m guessing the answer must either be really obscure, or really obvious. Here goes.
> 
> ...


Ok, after a LONG look…..There is nothing wrong there. Frog is where it is supposed to be, it can even come back a hair, and still be fine. There should be a small "ramp" at the mouth opening where the frog rests on. As long as the frog and this ramp are coplanar , plane should work just fine. As long as the iron itself is as sharp as you can get it, then make sure the chipbreaker mates up tight to the back of the iron. This is where the back being flat comes in. Makes it easier to match the two when the "back" of the iron is flat, and the chipbreaker can rest on that flat gap-free.

If you look at all the planes I have rehabbed over the years, this is how I go about making them plane wood like they were designed to. You want a straight, flat "plane" along the face of the frog, and right out the opening of the mouth. Frog too far forward ( mythical closed mouth syndrome) will merely cause chatter. There is no support right behind the cutting edge.

I polish the back of the iron as flat as I can..for the first 1/2" or so. This is where the chipbreaker will rest. I also when honing the edge of the chipbreaker, try to get a "knife-edge" that will contact the iron. This is the only "back-bevel" I use. That way, when the edge mates perfectly to the flat on the iron, when you tighten it down, the knife-edge will deform just enough to make a seal. I also polish the curved part of the chipbreaker, I don't want those shavings coming through to catch on anything.

I set the chipbreaker about a 1/64" back from the edge. IF there is a slight camber, I go with the corners.

I make sure the iron and chipbreaker sit level on the frog's face, no gaps under them. Hopefully, the lateral lever will mate up with the slot. Once all that happens, set the depth to the faintest of cuts, and try it out. 
BTW: use a plain candle, and rub it all over the sole, helps allow the plane to slide on the wood.

Then just try it out for awhile.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Note to the above:

While the iron might have been a "Hercules" stamped item…it was stamped by Sargent Tool Co. One could replace some of the parts with type 5 sargent parts and have a sargent plane.

Yep, there are some BAD, Cheap planes out there. Late model Handyman planes, anything by Worth, or PS&W with their steel frogs. But not all "cheap" planes are bad, or beyond hope.

Trying to show HOW to make this plane into a decent working plane. I have rehabbed planes for quite a few years. ALL kinds of planes have come through the shop. I give each a fighting chance to preform as a plane should.

About the last thing someone needs, is to be told that not only did they buy a piece of cheap junk, they should also run right out and BUY some $150-$400 plane. Hmm, now, how the devil does one learn about planes that way. Then, later when the "New" plane starts to act up ( and they do) then the buyer then has no idea HOW to fix a problem. What then? Buy another "New" plane?

I want all those people just starting out working wood to be able to come here and learn how to get the most out of their tools. There are plenty of folks on here that can indeed teach them the how-to's of these tools. And, without telling them to go out and buy a new tool.


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## MuseumGuy (Aug 30, 2015)

Dear Lumberjocks:

Thank you all again for your thoughts on this iron-too-short-to-reach-the-front-edge-of-the-mouth-of-the-plane discussion. I've learned something from every piece of advice I've gotten, even the suggestions I decided not to take. Here's how things ended up (as well as a bit of backstory).

*1. Backstory: "Why is he so hung up on getting the edge of the iron to the very front of the mouth?"*
I was having a bear of a time getting my smoothing plane to work at all (horrible chatter and tear-out or no cut at all), and I'd read many people talking about how important it was to have a small mouth on the plane to reduce tear-out. The sole was flattened, the back of the blade was lapped, I ground the bevel at 25 degrees, and the edge had been honed well enough for me to shave the back of my forearm. But the gap at the mouth was much larger than what people were recommending, so I thought, "O.k., that must be the problem."

*2. What I did in response to everyone's advice*
a. Tried (and decided against) shimming the frog
b. Used a rat-tail file on the bolt slots in the frog to make sure that it could be slid as far forward as possible.
c. Tried to make the cap-iron mate as flat to the iron as possible
d. Re- re- re-sharpened the iron to razor edge
And the outcome:
the same as at the beginning: tear-out, chatter, etc. Shavings as thick as a nickel or no cut at all.

*3. Then I watched the "English Woodworker" video that BubbaIBA suggested*
http://www.theenglishwoodworker.com/cap-irons-tear-out-video/
In the videos, he's adamant that a tight mouth as a way to reduce tear-out is a myth: what counts is-as always-sharpness, AND correctly positioning and tuning the cap iron/chip breaker. (E.g., close to front of blade as possible, and with increased bevel on top side and back bevel on underside of chip breaker to encourage flat seal against back of plane iron.)

*4. I went back and re-adjusted some more and… *
well, not exactly voila… but now my results were much better. By that point it was too late in the evening to properly test it, but I did run it along the edge of a 1×4 pine board with good results. Now that I could finally cut an actual shaving, I realized something else: how tightly the wood is held to the bench, how you position your feet, how you slide the plane forward, how much pressure you put on the front knob, and about a hundred other factors also have an effect on your success in making the plane work properly.

*5. My plan moving forward:*
I just installed a face vice on my workbench and tonight I'll drill some holes for bench dogs and try out the plane with some hardwood that's held firmly in place. If I'm able to get a decent shaving, I'll consider my problem solved (thanks to all of your suggestions). If I can't get it to work I'll take the suggestion of several others who've posted, and simply buy a halfway decent used plane (probably a Stanley Bailey/Sweetheart 5 on auction). They seem to be going for around $50.

*...And a footnote*
Whenever I'm trying to learn something new, I know that the problems I'm having are probably not with the tool, but with its operator. And I don't want to sidestep the issue by just giving up and buying a new tool, because I feel like if I do, I won't learn what I need to know for the future. That said, I also recognize that there comes a time to stop wasting your time so that you actually have some time to-as one poster noted-actually make something out of wood. I'll leave a final follow-up note tomorrow night.


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

Well I read the whole post wrong from the beginning.I Thought you could not get the iron to protrude out the bottom of the plane.
I'm glad for your sucess.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

I will take a couple of my #4 stanley planes, and see IF I can duplicate the problems you have…

The reason I prefer the face of the frog and the ramp to be coplanar? As you move the frog forward…you lose the support of that ramp behind the edge of the iron. Unless it is one of those super thick new age irons, or a vintage tapered iron from Ohio Tool Co…....the edge will be vibrating as you push it along. The chipbreaker add no such support. It will stiffen an iron, but the edge can still deflect backwards. That is why the ramp is needed.

Tear out is more of a grain related problem. Read which way the grain runs. If it is running "downhill" away from the cut, the iron will want to follow. If you do get tear-out, try going from the other direction.

Another way would be to go along at a diagonal. Skew the backend of the plane away from you, maybe 22-45 degrees. Still pushing straight ahead. This makes a slicing cut.

I'll try a few things out on a plane of mine, to see what is doing what. Happen to have a Type 20 No. 4 Stanley…..about the same size and age as yours. Right now, it can produce see-through shavings with ease. I'll try a few things, take a few pictures, and then bring mine back to where it was.

Might even do a blog on it…..maybe others can learn from it, too…..


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

One of them "cheap" planes…....edge grain is about 3/4" wide…









This is the Stanley #4 T-20 I'll work with…..shaving is from a 2×4 edge grain…









This is what it produced….stay tuned…


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## daddywoofdawg (Feb 1, 2014)

Is the adjust screw on the frog side,is it in the slot on the iron,is the iron against the frog then the chip breaker,then the lever cap.


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## BubbaIBA (Nov 23, 2011)

> Dear Lumberjocks:
> 
> Thank you all again for your thoughts on this iron-too-short-to-reach-the-front-edge-of-the-mouth-of-the-plane discussion. I ve learned something from every piece of advice I ve gotten, even the suggestions I decided not to take. Here s how things ended up (as well as a bit of backstory).
> 
> ...


MuseumGuy,

Check the sole with the frog and blade installed. Most folks go all Conan on the screws, the frog attachment screws should be just barely tighter than finger tight. The tightness you are looking for is tight enough that you can not move the frog by hand but loose enough to move the frog back and forth with the frog adjustment screw. The lever cap screw is another place folks go Conan, it should be just tight enough that you can not move the iron side to side with light hand pressure but no tighter.

With the frog and iron properly installed check the sole with a good straight edge. I expect from your description of sometimes nothing and other times shavings "thick as a nickel" that with the frog and iron installed you have a hump just behind the mouth of the plane. Over tightening of the frog attachment screws can distort the sole causing a hump behind the mouth.

BTW, the sole does not have to be perfectly flat, in fact the Japanese hollow the sole of their planes. the only areas of a Japanese smoothing plane that are co-planer are the toe and a small area just in front of the mouth. On Japanese jointing planes it is the same but with an additional co-planer area near the tail of the plane.

Good luck, it is tough to learn to use a plane and figure out what is wrong with one when you do not know how to set a plane up, what is important in the fetting of the plane and so on. You need one foot on a rock so to speak, it is much easier if you know how a plane should work because you have used one that works. Starting with a pile of rust is truly pulling yourself up by the bootstraps.

ken


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## Ocelot (Mar 6, 2011)

It sounds like you are on the right track.

If you have "shavings as thick as a nickle", the blade is projecting too far out the bottom of the plane. It should be something like 5 thousandths of an inch or less. If your iron is set like that, it's pretty much impossible to make shavings as thick as a nickle.

A handy tool is the iGaging digital plane check. You can get one for about $16 on ebay. You can do it with a caliper, but this is easier. Having a number instead of just a feel is useful sometimes.

Oh, and as I'm sure you know, planing is like petting a cat. There is a right direction and a wrong direction.

-Paul


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Ok, here is what I found out, using a few of my planes as test subjects

One: IF I move the frog forward as far as I can









Mouth does close up…









But there is a problem









I can't get the cutter assembly to lay down ON the frog, there is also zero clearence for any wood to come through…









Sooo, I took the frog back until my thumb felt the frog and ramp matched each other..









Checked the set-back of the chipbreaker









Assembled the plane, and gave it a test drive…









First time through, I had it a hair deep…









And this is what I got









Tried several other planes, but had to refresh the test track…









Not once could I get any of them to chatter, even going the other direction..









With a Stanley Handyman #1204, even. Pine test track had a few spots to test things on…









Never seemed to bother the planes, though.

Just a bunch of "cheap" vintage planes????


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## Ocelot (Mar 6, 2011)

I"ve never understood "chatter" either. I suspect what they are talking about is the normal sound of a plane working rough lumber. When you first start planing a rough piece, you get very few shavings - as you are just hitting the high spots. A little later, as you continue to work, you get a little more action, but since the wood is not flat, the plane alternately cuts and skips over low spots. Maybe this is what people call "chatter". After you get the work piece flat enough to make a full shaving, the plane makes a sort of "zip" sound as it goes.


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## paratrooper34 (Apr 27, 2010)

Ocelot, what you are describing is not chatter, that is normal. If you want to experience chatter, loosen your iron and plane some hardwood. That's the easiest way to replicate it.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

I have seen the "chatter" happen…..but
Frog was too far forward….
Chipbreaker was too far back from the edge

When these two things happen….iron is sitting out in the middle of nowhere, without any support behind it. Without the chipbreaker right on the top of the edge to stiffen the iron…And usually the blade is set a hair deep.

Pushing it along, the iron will flex a bit, and then start to vibrate. This is the chatter people seem to see. Then, rather than fixing things the way they are designed to operate, they just drop in as thick an iron as they can buy, and hope it doesn't flex.

The iron does need that support behind it. That is why there is a small ramp machined into the casting. The chipbreaker stiffens a modern, thinner iron. Between the chipbreaker and that ramp, the iron is stable, and vibration free. Unless it is being used as a scrub plane, shavings the thickness of an old nickle aren't needed. Advance the depth of cut until the iron just starts to cut. IF it needs more, quarter turns of the wheel will do.


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