# Help with Stanley 77 Dowel Maker



## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

I got a good deal on a vintage Stanley 77 Dowel maker a couple of months ago and I am finally getting around to fiddling with it. It came with a full set of Cutters (5/16-3/4). Two were missing the blades and one of the blades was broken so I ordered and just now receive the 3 new blades.

I am getting terrible tear-out when I make a dowel out of both hardwood and pine and could use some advice to see if I am doing something wrong or at least find out if I just have the wrong expectations.










I have used both the old and new blades that I just received with the same results. I have also tried different sizes but get the same results regardless. I tried to sharpen a blade with a slip-stone but that didn't seem to help, though it is possible that my sharpening technique didn't really sharpen them. The only real adjustment appears to be to position the blade in or out to fine tune the diameter. All of the wood I have tried so far is old and dry. Are you supposed to use green wood perhaps or is this just as good as it gets?

Also, any tips on the best way to sharpen the cutters would also be helpful.

EDIT: I forgot to add the requisite tool porn (gloat) for you:


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## RWE (Sep 30, 2016)

About the only thing you can control other than sharpness is the type of wood you use. Pine that is quarter sawn would be better than flatsawn, but it is soft and would probably tear some even then. See if you can research the types of wood that were commonly used in dowel making. Green wood is going to move on you, but if you rive the blanks so they have good grain direction, that might work. Look for something straight grained and see if the results are better.


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## recycle1943 (Dec 16, 2013)

being quite challenged in many areas I only make dowels 3" to 4" long on my nova lathe and I only do that to make a specific diameter.
Anything longer like perhaps a dowel hinge, I just whimp out and buy whatever I need. If I can't find a wood species to match my project I change the lumber to match available dowels.
Not much help at all for your problem but a simple solution for me.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

Yeah, I have several methods to make dowels, including this one with my vise, but the price of this machine was too good to pass up. The 3 new blades cost more than the the dowel maker. Just trying to see if I can get this to work better.


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

Those don't look to bad to me. I rive all my dowels and use a Lie Neilson dowel plate.My dowels come out pretty rough If the diameter is good I think it's a success.
Good Luck


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## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

They look rougher than I would expect Nathan but I have zero experience with a 77. My gut reaction is that you're taking too heavy of a cut but I assume the cut depth is probably not adjustable. In other words, you cut from square to round in one pass whether you want to or not? Can you run it through the next larger size first then clean it up with the size you want?

I imagine it needs to be really sharp too. So if you're not sure if it's sharp enough, it's probably not. Slipstone is about the best way I can see to sharpen them though so I can't offer any better suggestions.

Beyond those two things, it's probably just a matter of fettling. Hopefully somebody who has and uses one will pop in.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

First off, I guess it's relevant to say you can count me in as one having a No. 77.

RE: tearout. I have not tried this, but it's something that seems to work with my shaper (for example). Might you run stock through, first pass, at (perhaps) a 1/16" thicker that needed, then run it a second time to get a smoother final result? The additional run-through would be after a slight adjustment to the blade, inside the cutter head.

Just a thought.


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## Kudzupatch (Feb 3, 2015)

I have the Lee Valley dowel making tools, similar in cutting action and I get rough looking dowels too. I feed mine with a drill and have found that if I feed slower they are better but never great. Nothing like the smooth finish a pencil sharpener gives.


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## DavePolaschek (Oct 21, 2016)

I've been looking at a 77, and reading up, but haven't yet found one. One thing I've seen mentioned (also for hollow augers and making dowels on a lathe) is to make the initial pass a sixteenth larger, then oil the rough dowel with linseed oil and give it time to soak in, then do the final cut to get a good smooth surface.

Most of the time, rough dowels are good enough for me, as I'm using them for joinery or fixing a break (I have a set of dining room chairs that needed the arms repaired, and I made a bunch of 1/2 ash dowels to replace the 3/8 softwood dowels the factory used to join the arms. Much more solid, but almost completely hidden, so a rough surface probably worked better for gluing.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

The depth of cut is adjustable by sliding the blade in or out but I think that is mostly to fine tune the actual diameter you wind up with. I've tried planing down the blank so that it is technically too small (you get flat spots on the sides) to take the absolute minimum cut and the tear-out is still pretty bad. I did get one results right after I got it that was more like what I was expecting but when I tried just now to cut another inch on that same blank (the end was still square), it didn't result in the same finish as the earlier attempt.

I don't have a dowel plate Aj but the videos I have seen seem to yield better results than I am seeing here. These would probably be fine for hidden dowels or plugs but not for ones that would be visible.


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## Nubsnstubs (Aug 30, 2013)

I use a Veritas Jig adapted to use on my lathe. The finish isn't nearly as good as the commercial dowels, but since they are always hidden, who cares what the finish looks like. The size is what is important, plus the rougher the finish, the glue should hold better. ....... Jerry (in Tucson)


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

Thanks for the ideas. I head back out to the shop after lunch and try a few things.

BTW, does anyone have instructions for the 77 they could send me pictures of or perhaps knows where I can find a PDF copy. I could have sworn that I had located one on when I first got the machine but can't seem to find it now. I could be thinking about the 46 instructions but I remember reading something about how to size the blanks. Wherever I saw that, it is lost to me now.


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## bushmaster (Feb 25, 2012)

I think speed of the cutters may have something to do with it. Geared up hand crank seems to me the the speed may be a problem to. Routers give a smooth cut but turn very fast, like someone saind rate of feed to fast for the speed of the cutter.


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## duckmilk (Oct 10, 2014)

Nathan, you might try contacting Kevin (theoldfart) who you should know from the SOTS thread. I seem to remember he has one also and may have a link for the instructions.


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## duckmilk (Oct 10, 2014)

Just watched a couple of videos and it seems the best method is to turn the handle fast and feed the wood slow.

here

and here


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## theoldfart (Sep 9, 2011)

Like Smitty I have a 77 and the 3/8" cutter. My results are inconsistent. Cutter speed, because of the gearing, seems to be adequate. My cutter had a bit of pitting right at the edge so I've been stoning it carefully. I do find keeping the stock steady helps but I'm still not there. Hopefully some hero will surface and give us the Holy Grail of advice and all will be well! Until then I'll be getting stoned, oops, the cutter will be getting stoned.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

After a couple of hours of experimentation, I was finally able to get better results. I adjusted the cutter so that it was sticking into the hole the smallest amount possible. I basically backed off the blade and the pushed it in until the edge of the blade just appeared over the edge. It was easiest to do while looking through the back side of the blade holder. This is certainly an acceptable result (5/16" Doug fir and 1/2" silver maple ). 









One thing that was causing a problem is that the new blades I just bought are too long to adjust for a fine cut or perhaps the slot for the screw is not close enough to the edge to be able to retract the blade enough for a fine cut. In this picture I aligned the slot on a old bladed (that needs sharpening) sitting on top of a new one. 









So I think that I can file the slot longer to make the new blades work and adjust the old ones so that the take the lightest cut possible.


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## duckmilk (Oct 10, 2014)

Much better, good job and congrats on the cool tool!


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

Those look really good. Much better then a dowel plate


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

Now to the next problem that arose. On the last couple of tries I noticed that it would sort of bind up after I cut about an inch of dowel. My first assumption was that I wasn't taking a big enough cut and it was too large to exit through the back of the cutter. It turned out that the bolt that holds the drive gear on was tightening after a dozen or 2 revolutions. When I reversed direction it loosened up again and then started having a problem with the gears not staying engaged. I though that maybe there was just some gunk in there so I removed the bolt, cleaned up the bolt and brass bushing. Didn't help. I started wondering if this spacer or washer or whatever you call it is supposed to be more like a spring or split washer instead of completely flat and apply pressure so you don't have to tighten down the bolt.

Anyone know how this is supposed to work? Should the split ring be flat or should it be more like a spring? 









I also noticed that there is a little crack. Not sure if this caused the issue or was caused by it loosening up and having the shaft wobble.


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## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

If Inunderstand correctly, it seems like that split ring should act as a thrust washer? Doesn't jive to my mind…


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

I am just speculating. I am trying to understand why the bolt suddenly started tightening itself when I crank it. I could not figure out why that ring was split unless it was originally not flat and that maybe after 100 years, there is just no spring left in it? Regardless, I assume that the ring's purpose is to make sure that the bolt doesn't tighten as the wheel spins on the bolt's shaft. It is possible that the crack visible at the top of where it sits in the last picture is perhaps causing the ring to catch and spin with the wheel and then causes the bolt to tighten? I put some oil on the ring thinking that just reducing the friction might help prevent it but that was before I noticed the crack.


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## Kudzupatch (Feb 3, 2015)

That is a shoulder screw that you show. That should bottom at against the shoulder all that time. If you tighten it down fully and it doesn't work properly there is a problem for sure. That bolt should always be bottomed out tight.


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## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

After looking, I think maybe that's not a shoulder screw but a bolt with bushing over top. Correct Nathan?

Kudzu is right, the bushing should be a length such that when the washer hits the top of the bushing, it can't tighten any more. I'm guessing the split ring was indeed springy originally and is to take up any slop that may result from wear on the gear faces or on the washerface.

I would try a narrow shim under the bottom of the bushing to give a little more room. I suspect the split ring is indeed catching on the crack and rotating and turning the bolt with it. If you can't repair the crack to eliminate that, maybe try replacing the split ring with a similar sized o-ring. It should have enough flex to take up any slack but not have a tag end to catch on the crack.


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## DanKrager (Apr 13, 2012)

Good advice HK. I've not had a problem with my #77 and it cuts smoothly. I say "No" to second passes because one cannot hold the stock with the shoulders cut off. The square holes of the stock holder have be carefully centered on the axis of the cutter. This introduces the stock properly to the cutter which I've found works better if you can "skew" the cutter to the right in the small allowance of the cutter holder. Then pushing it into a deeper or shallower cut as needed for the proper dowel size. After some use the exit orifice becomes smoother and seems to work better. A healthy waxing helps. A piece of PVC pipe clamped in the right position to receive the finished dowel helps eliminate flop.

And as mentioned, speed is important. Adjust the crank handle to produce the maximum speed you can sustain for the size of cut. As your endurance grows, up the ante for speed. Your pictures show it set for the slowest speed = maximum leverage.

Most important for good quality cut is super sharp polished cutting edge at not more than 30° I haven't altered my cutting angles yet, but I'm tempted to go to 25° to see if that guts cleaner and easier. I've cut everything from pine to oak with very acceptable results with these techniques. Sanding the well cut dowel is like sanding a surface after planing it…kinda ruins it, IMHO.

I've not had issues with the crank bolt tightening so I've never taken it apart to look. One should also be aware that the stock holding disc is likely held by a LH thread.

Really good find to have a complete set of 7 cutters. 9 sizes were offered, but they are rare. Furniture makers often used 7/16" and 9/16" dowels.

DanK


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

Thanks. I will fiddle with it more and report back. I am trying to wrap my mind around how adding a shim would help. It seems like that would make it tighter and more likely to bind? It wont hurt to try.

I wonder if cleaning the oil off and putting a drop of something like threadlock in the groove to prevent the ring from spinning in the track might help. It is possible that the barn grime loosened up when added a few drops of oil and allowed it to spin. That might explain why it worked fine for a while. Anyway, I will try a few things and see if any of them helps.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

One more question: Is there a name for a washer that has a round profile like that, maybe without the split? It is possible that it is simply split because it was easier to make that way 100 years ago or it could be that someone along the way just made this out some wire to replace a worn one?

Can someone who has one check theirs and let me know if they see the same sort of split ring?


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## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

We call those split rings "pig rings" Nathan. But IDK if that's proper terminology…

The shim under the bushing would raise the bolt head a little bit and reduce the friction between the washer and the split ring. At least if I'm thinking about it right.


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## Bearcontrare (Oct 6, 2020)

One has to wonder of the blades are too close to the stock, with the result that the blade is digging into the material. Had this happen with a tenon cutter some time ago…..

BTW, GREAT SCORE getting this tool!!! GA-REEN with envy…... 8^D


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

This is what you find when you search the Amazon for pig rings


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## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

That should work ;-)


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## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

I'm not having any luck finding those rings Nathan. I dunno what you call them… If you can find a coil spring the right size, you could just cut a single coil out and use it. I'd try an o-ring I think first to see if it eliminates the catching in the crack.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

> One has to wonder of the blades are too close to the stock, with the result that the blade is digging into the material. Had this happen with a tenon cutter some time ago…..
> 
> BTW, GREAT SCORE getting this tool!!! GA-REEN with envy…... 8^D
> 
> - Bearcontrare


I did finally get pretty good results when I backed off the blade until it just barely sticks into the gap.

I won't tell you how cheap I got the entire set for. I've seen individual cutters without blades listed on ebay for more than I paid for the entire set.



> Most important for good quality cut is super sharp polished cutting edge at not more than 30° I haven't altered my cutting angles yet, but I'm tempted to go to 25° to see if that guts cleaner and easier. I've cut everything from pine to oak with very acceptable results with these techniques. Sanding the well cut dowel is like sanding a surface after planing it…kinda ruins it, IMHO.
> 
> One should also be aware that the stock holding disc is likely held by a LH thread.
> DanK


Dan, Any tips on sharpening? The only thing I have tried is to use a slip stone with with rounded edges to get into the curved area and I am not sure that I am really helping much. Do you also hone the back side like you do with chisels and planes? I discovered that the holding disk is LH thread the hard way. I will experiment with adjusting the handle position once I resolve my axle binding issue.



> The shim under the bushing would raise the bolt head a little bit and reduce the friction between the washer and the split ring. At least if I m thinking about it right.
> 
> - HokieKen


Ah, I think that the shim would have to be between the bolt and the gear plate to raise the head.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

I did find something called hog rings that look similar but it doesn't look like they are intended for this purpose. More of a retaining ring. I actually tried to bend the ring a little to give it some spring but it just flattened back out after tightening down the bolt. It is just too flexible so may not have ever been intended to work like a split washer.


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## DanKrager (Apr 13, 2012)

I have some time so I will go look at mine, see what's there.

Compression washer is a term I would throw out there. The ones I know about are wavy and can take up a LOT of slack. The idea is to bind the bushing (if there is one) or hold the bolt head off the gear wheel a few thousandths. And yes, the shim or compression washer would go over the threads "below" the bushing or bolt shoulder.

Yes, I used the best sharpening technique I know….polish the back and the front in such a way that the edge does not get rounded over noticeably using something quite firm, like hardboard (Masonite). Yes, Arkansas stones were involved to get the edge ready to polish.

Stay tuned to see what I have.

DanK


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## DanKrager (Apr 13, 2012)

Here's the deal. Yours may be an older version of mine, especially if it is really black. Mine is blue. (Hard to tell from picture) The bearing surface of the large gear wheel seems to be one piece cast with the head. It was machined with a hollow mill which did the bearing shaft surface and the face of the casting in one pass. The shaft is just proud of the wheel when installed and the tiny screw and washer simply retain the gear on the shaft. The custom screw is misleading because of the big head (under the washer). There is no compression washer or "hog ring".

Another thought is that the shaft was broken or worn so badly that it had to be "replaced". There are two ways to fix that case, both mentioned above. I would have chosen the "shouldered bolt" where the head was drilled and threaded to some reasonable size and a custom bolt turned where the smooth shank (bearing surface) was a few thousands longer than the gear wheel is thick so the bolt could be tightened to the shoulder leaving the wheel free to turn. The other is very similar, but uses a standard bolt and custom bushing to achieve the same result.










I've reposted some videos of mine in use. video2 video3 video4

DanK


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## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

I suspect that Nathan's bushing and bolt serve the same purpose as the shaft on yours Dan. I suspect now that maybe the bushing was intentionally left a bit long and then the split rings of various sizes were used to get the proper clearance at assembly.

If that is the case Nathan, I believe shims underneath the bushing will fix your issue. Then you can do away with the split ring all together and the crack won't be an issue.


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## DanKrager (Apr 13, 2012)

I agree.

DanK


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

Yes, mine is definitely black. Looking at the back of the gear wheel, you can see that there is a flange bushing that keeps the wheel from rubbing against the machine body while also providing the bearing surface for the axle bolt. 









One thing to note is that if you look closely, the bolt is actually shorter than the flange bushing so that it does not actually tighten against the machine body, especially when the hog ring washer is in place. That makes me think that this bolt was replaced at some point with a shorter one, maybe from the newer blue design? That is probably why it is able to tighten further and bind up everything. So I will try to put a washer or shims in there to get it basically flush. I think I actually may have some shim washers around here somewhere that have a precise thickness. I just have to figure out where I put them. I will report back when I give this a try.

More pictures for clarity. 








Here you can see that the brass bushing sits just proud of shaft on the front making a space for the hog ring to sit


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## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

Yep, that bolt is too short. It's gotta be longer than the bushing to work. Shim washers will fix you up


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

I drove to every place I could think of yesterday within about 7-8 mile radius looking for some sort of ready made shim rings but none of them have anything remotely suitable. Even finding it on the McMaster website took some time searching with different terms. Amazon searches required even more creativity. I finally found this one on McMaster and this one on the Zon that I think will work. I am leaning towards the McMaster one because, if my measurements are right, it will take 2 shims to get what I think is the right thickness whereas with the Amazon one it will take about 10-11 of them, though that may let me fine tune it better. I was trying to avoid cutting round shims or grinding down a washer to the right thickness and ID/OD but I guess I will see if I can do that today before I give up and just order the dang things.


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## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

Do you know exactly how much longer the bolt needs to be Nathan? I could just turn you a new bolt and send it your way.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

Thanks for the offer Kenny. When I went out to measure the length of the bolt I had a "duh" moment. I knew that it needed about .032" in shims from earlier measurements and when I looked at the hog ring I noticed that the amount that it was keeping the washer proud of the shaft was roughly about the gap when I set my caliper to .032. Instead of lengthening the shoulder bolt with shims, I decided to file a flat on one side of the hog ring allowing the bolt to tighten down as it should. Tada! It no longer binds. Hard to file with fat fingers so I hot glued it down while I made a few careful strokes with a fine file, followed by a little polishing on some wet dry paper after releasing it from the glue.










BTW, For some reason, even before I started to flatten the ring, it was actually functioning like a retaining ring and holding the brass bushing in place just like a retaining ring with a groove does. Must be the cooler weather today? I only lost it once when I pried it off and it sprung loose and bounced across the shop.


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## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

Tada! There ya go  I'm guessing somebody lost the split ring that used to be in there and replaced it with one that looked like it was the same size but wasn't quite.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

I usually make things harder than they need to be.

Now on to sharpening all of the blades and filing the slots longer on the new blades I bought so I can retract them enough to get a light cut. If it was just one blade, it would be much easier, I suppose, but these things are a PITA to sharpen. My slip stone has bull nose edges instead of true roundovers so have a sharp line where it transitions to flat, making it hard to transition between the flat and curved part of the blade. I am contemplating creating a slipstone out of wood or MDF that I can wrap some wet/dry sandpaper around. I need to look around and see if I can find something with the right shape first but the only thing I have seen so far is tapered.


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## DanKrager (Apr 13, 2012)

Lazyman, I'll fess up. The first sharpening on the dowel cutter blades was done with a Dremel cylinder stone. That got the basic bevel to the 30° cutting angle. Then I buffed it with a cylindrical buffing felt with microchrome abrasive. Mirror shine in 5 seconds. Of course this was after flattening and polishing the back side briefly with fine silicone carbide paper on glass and buffing with microchrome on Masonite. Cut hair like a razor.

I did use Arkansas stones, but it was very tedious by comparison. I used a diamond plate to get rid of a sharp edge like you spoke of.

Glad you got the bushing thing worked out.

Good luck.

DanK


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

Dan, you've been a wealth of knowledge on this thread. Thank you, nice job. I learned a lot. Again!


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## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

Nathan, do you have any diamond needle files? When I have small parts with funky shapes to sharpen, that's usually my first stop to get it shaped. Then slipstones to polish it up. I like Dan's idea of the little buffer wheel on the dremel to polish it up though. I have to remember that next time I'm fighting the inside bevel on a carving gouge ;-p


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## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

> Dan, you ve been a wealth of knowledge on this thread. Thank you, nice job. I learned a lot. Again!
> 
> - Smitty_Cabinetshop


+1


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

Thanks Dan. I'll give that a try. That should be easier than trying to come up with a custom shaped block. I just remembered that I have some little cheap diamond stones with various shapes for the Dremel that I will try before getting a diamond needle file (thanks Kenny). I will start with the new blades since they have a lot more room for wasting steel. I have had the best luck so far wrapping some wet/dry paper around one of the smallest dowels that I just made while testing.

Also Dan, that is a good idea to round over the sharp corner on the Arkansas slip stone where it transitions from the bullnose to the flat. That's the sort of thing I bought the cheap Harbor Freight diamond hone block for. I don't want to use the better diamond plates for that sort of thing.


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## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

FWIW, you can shape your Arkansas stones on a belt sander. That's how I flatten mine when they get dished


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## Kudzupatch (Feb 3, 2015)

Just a little follow up that might help you.

I had to make some 3/8 white oak dowels with my Veritas dowel maker. As I mentioned before it always made rough dowels like yours. I reread the instructions and they recommended sharpening the blade for better quality. I pulled it out and it was a pretty poor edge on there.

So I sharpened them. They are hard to sharpen and I did stop before I got them sharp enough to shave with it. But what a difference! I used a slow feed rate and spun the blade a bit faster but I think the sharpening is what made such a big difference. I didn't even sand these, they were good enough as they were.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

Thanks Jeff. A sharp blade makes a huge difference but I was getting mixed results and set it aside for a while. Getting the blade set right is a little fiddly. One time it would make really nice dowels and the next time I'd get a really rough finish. I had the best luck sharpening with a dowel wrapped with some wet/dry sandpaper but a diamond, stone or ceramic rod might work better.


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## Bellman (Sep 29, 2021)

Nathan, I have only the body. Let me know if you ever want to sell your set. I'm a woodworker not a reseller.
Dave


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## Oughtsix (Mar 9, 2015)

I wonder if green wood would work any better? It would probably have a heck of a bow when id dries though.


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## wagonhunt (Jan 12, 2022)

This post is for Lazyman. I have been looking for new cutter blades for the Stanley 77 dowel machine and read that you purchased new blades for yours. Can you possibly let me know where you purchased them? I tried Vintage Tools but never received the product or any information about the blades on their site.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

Here is a link to page where you can order them. It may be sort of a one man shop so if you don't hear back right away, use the contact page to send them an email. When I initially ordered them they were out of stock and waiting for their machinist to make more and I had to ping them every so often to see if they had restocked yet.


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