# Marines



## Howie (May 25, 2010)

I was in the Army in Vietnam. My son was a marine.
I think this BS about the four marines facing charges is ridiculous. 
1. Do people really think things like this hasn't happened before? Get real!
2. You train someone to kill people and then want to berate them because they were blowing off a little steam.
3.How about the atrocities the Somalies commited by dragging our Seals thru town on the back of a car?
4. How about Taliban,Elkinda (or however you spell it) cutting peoples heads off and stuffing their genitals in the mouth of their victums.
5> How about 9/11? That wasn't an atrocity?
If I was a soldier today and these guys were disiplinned, I think I'd pack up and tell the news medis to go fight.
I blame the news media for keeping things like this stirred up. Some of these people reporting the news wouldn't know a bazooka if it hit them in the butt but they really try to make a story out of everything. This is why we can't win in Afganistan or Iraq or any place else we stick our noses in. Too D%$# many do gooders. Even my grandfather that didn't even have a high school diploma(had to work to feed the family) said never get into a fight just to fight. If you get in a fight, fight to win.
I blame the taliban for being in the way of a group of guys just taking a P*&^ call. They were laying around at the wrong place at the wrong time.
Thank you, Howie will now step off his soap box.


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## GMman (Apr 11, 2008)

I saw the video and it was very disturbing specially taping it for all to see.
What about the things that happen and are not on tapes?


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## GMman (Apr 11, 2008)

US probes video of Marines urinating on dead Afghans
The US military was investigating a "disgusting" online video purportedly showing Marines urinating on the corpses of Taliban fighters in Afghanistan, a Pentagon spokesman said.

Tweet

US probes video of Marines urinating on dead Afghans
The video shows what appears to be four servicemen, dressed in US military uniform, relieving themselves onto three bloodied bodies on the ground, apparently aware that they are being filmed.

"Have a great day, buddy," one of them says, giggling.

It is not clear from the video whether the dead Afghans were Taliban insurgents or civilians.

The Pentagon has not yet verified the video, but spokesman John Kirby told AFP: "Regardless of the circumstances or who is in the video, this is… egregious, disgusting behavior, unacceptable for anyone in uniform."

"It turned my stomach," he added of the video, which was posted on the Live Leak website.

The Afghan Taliban Thursday denounced the video as "barbaric."

"This is a barbaric act. Over the past 10 years there have been hundreds of similar cases that were not revealed," Taliban spokesman Zabihullah Mujahed told AFP.

If authenticated, the images-which conjure up previous abuses committed by US troops during the decade-long war-could spark deep anger and resentment in Afghanistan and the wider Muslim world.

A military official who asked not to be named said the helmet and weapon carried by one of the men seems to indicate the four could be members of an elite sniper team.

The official also said such conduct would be punishable under the US code of military justice.

The Washington-based Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), a prominent US Muslim civil rights and advocacy organization, condemned the alleged desecration of corpses.

"If verified as authentic, the video shows behavior that is totally unbecoming of American military personnel and that could ultimately endanger other soldiers and civilians," CAIR said in a statement on Thursday.

"We trust that this disturbing incident will be promptly investigated in a transparent manner and that appropriate actions will be taken based on the results of that investigation," the statement said.

"Any guilty parties must be punished to the full extent allowed by the Uniform Code of Military Justice and by relevant American laws."

A statement issued by the Pentagon said: "Headquarters Marine Corps has recently been made aware of a video that portrays Marines urinating on what appear to be deceased members of the Taliban.

"While we have not yet verified the origin or authenticity of this video, the actions portrayed are not consistent with our core values and are not indicative of the character of the Marines in our Corps.

"This matter will be fully investigated."

Some 20,000 Marines are deployed in Afghanistan, mostly in Kandahar and Helmand provinces in the south of the war-ravaged country, the heartland of the hardline Islamist Taliban movement ousted from power in late 2001.

The United States and its NATO allies have some 130,000 troops fighting the Taliban insurgency in Afghanistan.

US and coalition partners plan to hand over security for the whole of the country to Afghan forces by the end of 2014, allowing the withdrawal of combat forces.

In March 2011 the US military apologized after pictures surfaced of US soldiers from a rogue Army unit posing with dead Afghans. Five soldiers from the unit were charged with murder for allegedly shooting civilians for sport.

The German weekly Der Spiegel, which first published the photos, said the Pentagon had tried to prevent their release, fearing a popular backlash against troops in Afghanistan.

In November the ringleader of the "kill team"-which was also charged with taking fingers and teeth as trophies from civilians killed for sport-was found guilty and sentenced to life in prison by a military panel.

That scandal was among the worst faced by the military since the April 2004 revelation of prisoner abuse at the US-run Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq, which became a potent negative symbol of the US occupation.

Eventually, 11 soldiers were convicted in connection to the abuse, and received punishments ranging from an army discharge to 10 years in prison.


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## RibsBrisket4me (Jul 17, 2011)

War is hell…those who don't realize it, are ignorant.


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## GMman (Apr 11, 2008)

It's more than hell buddy.
Sending those young men at war and pushing them to the limits.
Most come back with a ruin life, those that come back.


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

Somehow I do not care about upsetting the Muslims. They didn't care about upsetting me with 9/11.


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## Magnum (Feb 5, 2010)

YES!! This is BS that these Marines would face any kind of charges for their actions! It's WAR for Gods sake!!

I have 3 Videos on here of the* ATROCITIES that THEY (Taliban) perform on a Regular Basis,* or at least the ones that have been "Documented".

The Beheading of Eugene Armstrong! ,,,, The Beheading of Nick Berg! ,,,,Another one of them "Lecturing" about 20 People of their own Country. Then using AK 47's they Kill them all. Then a Pistol Shot to each of their Heads just to make sure!

The Do-Gooders expect all the Allied Forces to play NICE NICE with these …well I was going to say Animals…but I like REAL Animals.* "SCUM of The Earth"* would be more fitting!!

No. I wouldn't post the Link to the Web Site that has this stuff or even the name.

Now that I just typed that ….maybe it would be a good idea to make this stuff more available.

It MIGHT just "SOBER UP" some of the "IDIOTS" that think or believe that Our Fighting Men And Women are over there to "Hand Out Candy" to all the Kiddies and using Rubber Bullets so they won't seriously Injure these "FREAKS"!!

I'm ANGRY and I'm DONE!!


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## fussy (Jan 18, 2010)

Howie,

First, thanks for what you and your son have done for us. Secondly, we put those kids in a place where people try to kill them, they don't know for sure whether or not they're bad guys or not until the ******************** hits the fan (remember that?), they keep getting sent back for multiple deployments until they become jaded to the killing, and then they are up on charges for pissing on dead guys qho had just tried to kill them? How dare they violate the sanctity of their holy moslem bodies? Firing squad is too good for them, right? That's what happens when politicians try to fight a war, with other people's blood, with RULES when the other side just fights a war. Remember how well that worked? Of course it's a crock. They should get thanked for their service, and told not to raise their cameras above their schmetzels next time. Who gives a crap about taliban sensitivities anywho? I think it's absolutely horrendous that anyone would criticize the act anyway. In WWII, bombs typically landed up to 5 miles from the target so the British elected to go in for night time carpet bombing of cities in Germany, killing thousands of civilians a night. Now, if our guys violate the sensitiiveties of the bad guys they just whacked, they are villified? Doesn't make any sense, and people who have not had bullets snapping past their ears should not presume to judge the actions of one who has. Bet their co had no problem til the stuff started rolling downhill.

Stay on your soapbox Howie.

Steve


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## redryder (Nov 28, 2009)

The only stupid thing they did was to film it for the Utube generation.
I suspect thier buddies thought it funny.
I also imagine no one will be laughing at thier courtmartial…...............


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

Agreed, no one cares what they did only that they were stupid enough to film it.


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## ClintSearl (Dec 8, 2011)

They should be given medals for exterminating the ****************************************.


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## KnickKnack (Aug 20, 2008)

If we adopt an attitude of "they did terrible things, so it's OK for us to do terrible things" then, IMHO, they will have won.


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

KnickKnack, were you ever in the service or and/or a war? "They" are going to win anyway because our politicians don't support our troops. 
One of the worst things to happen was letting the media "embed" with our troops.
I'm a Vietnam vet. I don't not support this war. I did not support Iraq and I do not support Pakistan. I DO SUPPORT OUR TROOPS! The troops cannot accomplish their mission by getting their fingers smacked for everything that is done.


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## KnickKnack (Aug 20, 2008)

I differentiate between "supporting our troops", which is good, and right, and proper, and "supporting our troops *regardless of what they do*", which is neither good, nor right, nor proper.

IMHO there's a line to be drawn, even during times of "war", and, imho, this is beyond that line. Should we not be defending the "moral high ground"?
Comments such as "They should be given medals for exterminating the ****************************************" just put "us" down at the same low depths as the kind of people that planned and executed attrocities such as 9/11


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## lumbermonkey (Jul 23, 2011)

Let me stir this pot a bit.
I served in the Army then went directly in to police work. I have seen how the liberal media and self serving politicians can destroy people. This nation is headed toward the toilet at quick pace. Just look at how people treated teebow for expressing his Christian beliefs. If teebow were a Muslim no body would have said a thing due to being "politically correct." You are absolutely correct when you say they train us to fight and kill then seem appalled when we do. Let these soldiers do there job.


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## KnickKnack (Aug 20, 2008)

You are absolutely correct when you say they train us to fight and kill then seem appalled when we do. Let these soldiers do there job.
But that isn't what they did.
Unless abusing dead bodies *is* what they're trained to do? I'm not in the army, never was, so I bow to your better judgement of what is included in training.


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## grosa (Aug 27, 2010)

War is hell. The war should NOT be filmed. Our enemy's kill us with no regret. What happens in war should stay in war. The money it takes to send over a filing crew should be spent on our troop that make it back to help them lead a normal life (if that is possible) and help the families of those who didn't make it back. Who the hell cares about the other guys, they don't care about us! Our troops are RISKING THERE LIVES!!! Support our troops, don't punish them. That's how I feel.


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## cmaxnavy (Dec 23, 2007)

UhRah! Thanks for your service to country. Here's what we need more of-- 
Allen West on the Marines Incident: *'Shut Your Mouth, War Is Hell'*
Daniel Halper
January 13, 2012 1:37 PM

Rep. Allen West (R-Fla.), a former Army lieutenant colonel, sends THE WEEKLY STANDARD an email commenting on the Marines' video, and has given us permission to publish it.

"I have sat back and assessed the incident with the video of our Marines urinating on Taliban corpses. I do not recall any self-righteous indignation when our Delta snipers Shugart and Gordon had their bodies dragged through Mogadishu. Neither do I recall media outrage and condemnation of our Blackwater security contractors being killed, their bodies burned, and hung from a bridge in Fallujah.

"All these over-emotional pundits and armchair quarterbacks need to chill. Does anyone remember the two Soldiers from the 101st Airborne Division who were beheaded and gutted in Iraq?

"The Marines were wrong. Give them a maximum punishment under field grade level Article 15 (non-judicial punishment), place a General Officer level letter of reprimand in their personnel file, and have them in full dress uniform stand before their Battalion, each personally apologize to God, Country, and Corps videotaped and conclude by singing the full US Marine Corps Hymn without a teleprompter.

"As for everyone else, unless you have been shot at by the Taliban, shut your mouth, war is hell."


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## GMman (Apr 11, 2008)

""Agreed, no one cares what they did only that they were stupid enough to film it.""

Right on


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## GMman (Apr 11, 2008)

""The only stupid thing they did was to film it for the Utube generation.
I suspect thier buddies thought it funny.
I also imagine no one will be laughing at thier courtmartial……............""

I agree


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## Magnum (Feb 5, 2010)

*Max: * "As for everyone else, unless you have been shot at by the Taliban, shut your mouth, war is hell."

YOU got that right!! Wonder if Mr. Knicknacks got it figured out yet?? Probably to busy …* "Should we not be defending the "moral high ground"?"*

In A NUT Shell? NO! You start Shooting at ME .. My MORALS go into my back pocket and YOU get a BURST of 50 Calibre…. wherever it manages to Nail You!!

*"I'm not in the army, never was, so I bow to your better judgement of what is included in training." * ....Should have stopped that sentence right after "judgement".


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## JollyGreen67 (Nov 1, 2010)

The only thing "disgusting" about the Marines pissing on a dead Taliban is - The stupidity of those guys putting it on Utube. If I had my way, I'd piss on all of 'em, alive or dead. And, before someone out there in LJ land, who has never been shot at and never seen a body bag - STUFF IT! I was in Vietnam 1969 - 1971, doing "war stuff".


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## KnickKnack (Aug 20, 2008)

This nation is headed toward the toilet at quick pace

Looking at some of the comments here, it isn't rocket science to see why.


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

KnickKnack, you are certainly entitled to your opinion. But as a vet myself I'm really tired of our military trying to do it's job and the do gooders putting them down. How would you like it if you did your job everyday only to have someone berate you over some silly little thing you did to blow off a little steam? Everyone in this country enjoys the right to voice their opinions,great, but have they all considered how they won that right? Or who won it for them?
Bottom line is the only reason this is stirred up is because some idiot news person thinks it's news. There are people in power out there that act horrified at this, but behind the scenes express another opinion. They are not in a position(or they are trying to strenghten their position) to comment any other way but negativly.


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## ClintSearl (Dec 8, 2011)

This is from another blog. Note the poll results:

EXTRACT: "The liberal media and administration officials are seething with shocked outrage at the release of a video depicting the desecration by urination of three Taliban corpses by four U.S. Marines. Interestingly, the American public is neither as incensed nor apparently even shocked by the revelation. The Washington Post in its online account has included a reader poll with these three options: 
What was your reaction to the video that appeared to show Marines urinating on three Afghan corpses?

It's an unacceptable desecration - 12%

It's an embarrassment - 7%

It's not surprising-things like this happen in war - 81%

Total Votes: 13,445***_"No doubt the enraged elites will be equally outraged at such poll results, evidence of the validity of their snide condescension toward the majority of Americans who to them are nothing more than vulgar barbarians clinging to their God and their guns. What that poll says to me is that the American people understand that while urinating on your dead enemy may show a serious lack of respect, it in no way rises to the level of seriousness of that of actually killing them.

"But then again, the liberals are the same folks who don't give second thought to launching a Hellfire missile from a drone and wiping out a squad of Taliban or Al Qaeda but woe be unto the American trooper who dares inflict pain on a survivor to obtain critical intelligence. They're the same fools who deplore American forces for not fighting fair. Of that concept, warrior/author, Col. David Hackworth, R.I.P., famously said, "If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan your mission properly.""


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## jackass (Mar 26, 2008)

Both the Military and Police Forces are trained to defend us, the news media film the worst possible circumstances, put it on the T.V. news and only show the worst possible content then claim brutality, to sensationalize, and to make a good story. They should be reporting the good things these men and women do to help the public, then, that is not as sensational as someone being tasered because he threatened the lives of innocent by-standers and the police are there to help him and save his life. The media has pretty much destroyed the use of the taser, the next possible option is an instrument that goes "BANG", instant death to the offender. Come on media and reporters, lighten up and stop trying to be heroes. I know of a situation in the north where an old widow needed help, and the local police went to her home daily to help her light her wood stove all winter, just to keep warm. These are the stories worthy of reporting, not about an out of control 250 pound drunk that needed to be tasered so that he wouldn't injure himself, or kill someone else. The military has equally as many stories similar to this.
Jack


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## KnickKnack (Aug 20, 2008)

How would you like it if you did your job everyday only to have someone berate you over *some silly little thing you did* to blow off a little steam?

Indeed.

*IF* you accept that it was wrong, and characterize this as a silly little thing, as an error in judgement, as a "stupid" incident - OK - war etc etc - this is, alas, going to happen.

*BUT* - take a look at some of the postings above…
Somehow I do not care about upsetting the Muslims
The only stupid thing they did was to film it for the Utube generation.
Agreed, no one cares what they did only that they were stupid enough to film it.
They should be given medals for exterminating the ****************************************
I think it's absolutely horrendous that anyone would criticize the act anyway

These comments are *denying* that this was wrong, and supporting it as a "good" thing to have done. This I have a problem with.

Allen West, quoted above, imho, got it right…
The Marines were wrong. ... each personally apologize to …


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## KayBee (Jul 6, 2009)

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Desecrating bodies- wrong.
Media feeding frenzy calling for blood- wrong.

It's war, it happens and Marines know better. On the scale of war atrocties, this is about a .001. Good chewing out from your CO, stand an extra watch. Done and over. The media blowing this up into something a bit less than the mowing down a village of civilians for fun, is beyond irresponsible.

10 year US Navy, Gulf War I veteran


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## cranbrook2 (May 28, 2006)

The biggest problem is eventually the enemy will return the favour 10 times more sadistic .


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

KayBee..you got it right. That has been my whole point.


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## gfadvm (Jan 13, 2011)

If we're choosing up sides here, I'm with Howie. John, The enemy has already returned the favor 10 times more sadistic. (see 9/11 and other atrocities).


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## KayBee (Jul 6, 2009)

You do know that decisions made in fear usually result in the exact thing you fear happening. Yes, it can get worse, but it can get better too.

Simple example. Bully is gonna punch me for my milk money. Give him my milk money before he hits me. Bully laughs and punches anyway because it's what bullies do.


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

@ John, then maybe we should quit pussyfotting around and kick their ass good instead of putting up with crap like trying to court martial marines? 
When WW2 started everyone pulled together to support a war on two fronts. If this country got into another conflict like that you couldn't get people in two counties to pull together.
Support the troops, not the acts.


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## JollyGreen67 (Nov 1, 2010)

Reading some of the comments here: Were some of you part of the crowd who met us at the San Francisco airport, upon returning from Vietnam, who spat at and threw things at us ? Are you the ones that the Presidio MPs were ordered to stand between, because we had all of our weapons with us, so as not to cause a ruckus? We could have, but did not, even when being spat upon. We were Jolly Green Rescue personnel, who were ordered out in 1972 so fast we did not have time to turn in those weapons. We ignored all of you who did these things to us, because we were NOT intimidated by a horde of thrill seeking children, who were / are afraid of their own shadows, even to this day. Your chants of "war mongers, baby killers, father stabbers, and mother rapers" went on deaf ears. We were the victors, not you!


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

rosebud….those are the same people that whine about
'their" rights.  wonder where they think "their" rights came from.


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## JollyGreen67 (Nov 1, 2010)

Howie ….. Thanks. I had to get that off my chest after all these years.


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## doordude (Mar 26, 2010)

good comment by allen west.this is 19-20 year olds,with the you tube bug. sing the song,put them back in game, i'm sure they'll be wiser next go around. no cameras.


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## derosa (Aug 21, 2010)

*rosebud….those are the same people that whine about
'their" rights. wonder where they think "their" rights came from.*
I get really sick of hearing this from people, tell me, what rights of mine did you actually fight for? If the people actually get sick of a government that is abusing the people in power where do you think the military will stand when the government calls them out against the people? Look at the history of military action here in the states on orders of the government and get back to me with an informed answer on that.

Soldiers have a job to do that the government orders them to do. As such they should never deserve this nations respect and commitment to support them in the carrying out of the nation's wishes. However, you know as well as I do that this kind of action will only spur the enemy to attempt greater atrocities. Even worse it is now propaganda for the enemy to use to call others to their cause that may not have been previously supportive. Because of this they also could cause greater harm to their fellow soldiers by their actions. Further, just cause the enemy doesn't act in a decent manner doesn't mean we should sink to their level or we truly become no better then they are and we completely lose any moral high ground. 
Unless there is a history of this the soldiers should be reprimanded and possibly taken down a rank at most. If any of them has a history of this then that person should be forced to resign. No real need to take it further then that.


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## KayBee (Jul 6, 2009)

You can't "resign" from the service. Not even officers.


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

derosa. I'll take that as you have never been in the military. I see you sign as "Rev. Russ". Good luck to you and your followers .
Besides I said that not rosebud.
I get sick of the "DoGooders". I can say that because I fought for the right to expound my opinion too.


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## derosa (Aug 21, 2010)

I have never been in the military and while I thought at times of joining there was often the issue of being sent to someplace that I feel we don't belong. It has nothing to do with being a "do gooder" and everything to do with maintaining the high ground. 
I would point out http://www.marines.com/main/index/making_marines/culture/traditions/core_values to make my case. Note the first core value listed it honor and yet what these soldiers did had nothing to do with honor. Instead it brought dishonor to themselves, the corp that trained them and the nation that sent them.

What I get sick of is the people who claim to have stood in the front line of rights defense while diminishing and demeaning the voice of the people they claimed to have preserved the free speech of.


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

Good for you,Russ.


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## JollyGreen67 (Nov 1, 2010)

Maybe (?) I missed the point here. Those Marines, somehow, slipped to the level of those who were bent on murdering them, and their own countrymen. I agreee, they should be LIGHTLY punished, not put in the brig on bread and water. or any other criminal offense. They had just been through hell, and to p… on your adversary is a release of pent-up energy. The whole stupidity of the "incident" was to allow the picture to go viral. Dumb! And to all you woosies out there, who have never been in a like situation, go p… up a rope!


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

Right again rosebudjim. You didn't miss the point, other people did.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

The answer is SIMPLE.

*BRING BACK THE MILITARY DRAFT. PERIOD.*

Only when the rich, the privileged, the politically connected, etc., send THEIR kids off to war with the SAME rank and at the SAME time as the rest of us, will we see a change in the morality of war and in the very desire to make war over peace.

HorizontalMike 
#81 in the 1972 Draft


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## HamS (Nov 10, 2011)

Mike, at last a political idea we agree on. Military service should be required of everyone.


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

I was drafted in 1966. I accepted that as part of life. I went "to places I didn't want to go"" I didn't think we should have been there but…I went. I did things I'm not proud of….but I went. The thanks I get is being able to say I did my part for God and country and my fellow man. People that were never in the military can never understand that.I stand proud I was a soldier and my son stands proud as a marine.
The act the marines committed,while not necessarily nice is by far a lot less than barbaric. These guys will live with a lot more on their minds than p*&&^%$ on dead people. People that express horror at this don't have a clue,period. They only have an opinion.
Mike, you are correct as far as I'm concerned. It seems to work fine for Ishreal where no one is exempt.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Ham,
I would add that that military service be *"Unprivileged"* military service for everyone. I am sure we all remember how "W" went (and was allowed to go) AWOL in order to skip out on his tour of duty in Vietnam even though he was a qualified active duty combat fighter pilot. THAT kind of privilege just makes me sick!


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## HawkDriver (Mar 11, 2011)

KayBee- I could turn in my WO unqualified resignation tomorrow should I decide the Army is no longer for me.

Mike- I recently wrote a research paper for an Army class I was taking about H. W. and the island of ChiChi Jima in WW2. There was some crazy stuff going on there. Makes me wonder about how and why things went the way they did with W. when he was serving. I didn't think Bush was AWOL, I thought he was given preferential treatment to be placed in the guard rather than active duty.


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## murch (Mar 20, 2011)

If it is no big deal for Americans to piss on dead Afghans is it equally no big deal if Afghans
piss on dead Americans?
How would you feel if the video showed that? Would the Afghans be equally deserving of medals?
Not trying to start a riot, just genuinely wondering.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

*@murch* +10

My personal point about *"unprivileged"* military service is that when ALL are forced to think about such things first hand, then false bravado, mockery, taking of and posting of derogatory/vulgar images, or their direct acts, would be much diminished. I am NOT saying such acts would disappear, but the tendency to brag about them would be less prevalent. The very LAST thing we need to do is "to become" our enemy in every thought and deed.


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## murch (Mar 20, 2011)

Mike - a balanced and well put-together reply. You're making sense, to me anyway.


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## ClintSearl (Dec 8, 2011)

From a Seabee message board

• Pee on a Crucifix, you're an "Artist" 
• Pee on The American Flag, you're a "Constitutionalist" 
• Pee on a Police Car, you're a "Freedom Lovin' 99 percenter" 
• *Pee on a Taliban piece of crap that just tried to kill you and your fellow Marines, you're a "Villain"*


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

I've read some things recently about how at the end of WWII, when U.S. troops were liberating nazi death camps, they were in shock at the conditions they encountered. Seeing how innocent people had been tortured and slaughtered by the thousands, the German guards were in some cases lined up and machine-gunned on the spot. In other cases, surviving prisoners were allowed to take revenge on their captors.

None of this ever made it into the newsreels, of course.

Abstractly, I cannot say that killing surrendered prisoners or urinating on the dead bodies of your enemies is morally okay. But I totally understand and agree with what has been said here about war being hell. One cannot put people into a position where they must become hardened to death and gore, where they must kill or be killed, where they must abandon all preconceived notions of human decency in order to physically and emotionally survive, and then expect them to make moral decisions with the same level of cool detachment as if they were home, sitting in their living rooms, discussing ethics over a cup of coffee with their golf buddies.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Why all the fuss? The media's prime directive is to stir up controversy, sensationalize everything, and causing discourse for the topic to stay on the "front page" to assist sales.
In this incident to have to ask yourselves why someone would have video recorded it, the troops involved certainly were "acting" for the camera, - was this "happening" choreographed.? 
The fact is, nasty things happen in war, as some others have pointed out, but usually they are instances outside the "war creed box", and are quietly attended to by military law enforcement personal.
Does this controversy suggest that our military cannot police itself?, I think not. War is indeed Hell and can be described by it's lowest common denominator, Kill or Be Killed. Your duty is to stay alive and keep serving your country's orders by killing your country's enemies by any means under the Geneva Convention. Often our enemies do not follow the convention, and this infuriates our military, which can at times produce incidents that don't conform to our Geneva Convention standards, but these are rare and easily attended to by the military code enforces.

So ask yourself, would you not think that our enemies or their supporters gain with this sort of controversy?
It becomes clear that this whole incident was contrived, choreographed and brought to our attention to damage our military and country - They are part of the enemy fifth column. Let's round them up and charge them with treason.


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## NANeanderthal (Jun 2, 2011)

I agree with *Murch* on this one. But have a few of my own ideas to throw in.
What has been done to us is far worse than pissing on someones dead body, however, they were still pissing on someones dead body. Filming it only makes it worse, this will be used a recruitment tool for them and it WILL create far worse actions against our military as "pay back" If we pass off something like pissing on the face of a dead man as acceptable then we have slid greatly as a country. They will be punished by the Marine Corps, and they should, if for nothing else then at least for making a horrible tactical decision that creates greater threat.


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## KenBee (Mar 9, 2011)

Being a Vietnam veteran and serving over 3 years in country you really don't want to read my thoughts on this matter because they wouldn't paint a very satisfying picture.


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## derosa (Aug 21, 2010)

I think that Mike, Murch and Neanderthal have the issue down. I'm really hoping that Roger is speaking tongue in cheek with his last part. Although enemy propaganda and enlistment could benefit from this I doubt that they are fifth column plants. Just young men with a lot of stress that went too far. Just have the marine courts deal with them and reprimand them and move on.


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## NANeanderthal (Jun 2, 2011)

Here is what I don't understand. If you think it was bad, you must be some hippie that never served. And if you served you seem to think its okay. What those four idiots did will help recruit more of our enemy and cause retaliation. That in of its self pisses me off. If you have fought and bled, why would you encourage thinks like this or write them off, when they are just going to add to the spilling of more American blood? However, I also think it was a horrible act.

Now, before some you go getting your panties in a bunch over me calling them idiots, let me explain.

These Marine Scout Snipers are my brothers, my idiotic brothers at this point, but my brother none the less. I was sitting with my spotter and my M40A1 killing terrorists in Africa before killing terrorists was cool (ie, before 9/11). I have bled for my country in Afgan AND Iraq, I've made others bleed for their's in both of them as well as 4 other countries. This isn't my first rodeo and I've been looking through glass longer than any of the kids in the video, but I went through the school at Quantico when I was 19 and was pulling triggers in foreign lands when I was still a teenager. I have known a lot of close friends, brothers in the Marines, that never returned, I have felt a lot of pain, and I have seen more pain in wives and mothers eyes than anyone should see in a life time. To think that these Marines, that are trained, fellow snipers, would be so careless pisses me off. They should have known that if that video ever found its way out, it would be used to recruit and "fire up" more terrorist. They should have known this video WILL cause so much more pain for wives and mothers back home when its all said and down.

Sorry, for the rant. Anyone can see looking at my other posts that I never comment on anything but wood working related stuff here. But with my past this topic is very neat and dear to me.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

The Newage Neanderthal SAID: "Here is what I don't understand. If you think it was bad, you must be some hippie that never served. And if you served you seem to think its okay."

Huh? Please, next time read for content. While I understand the REMAINDER of your comments, the above statement is judgmental and uninformed so don't go off into extremes just to flatter yourself. I am glad that you served, *as did I*, however I DO feel this act was a bad thing. So why would you go off accusing all critics of this stupid act as you call it, as being from "...some hippie that never served."? At 30yr of age, you never personally knew any hippies, nor what they stood for OR faced in bringing an end to the Vietnam war.

I believe you did yourself a disservice young man, in answering the way you have above. Just my 2-cents…


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## BobM001 (Jan 8, 2012)

Well put "TNN"! What they did was "dilbert" to the max. Their machismo at the time of this incident though they may have thought was "cool" has cast a pawl over the Corps. Above all things they should have known that you NEVER disgrace THE CORPS. But as it has been suggested they need to be article 15'd, get busted back to lowly assed PFC, have a letter in their jacket, be made to apologize in full dress uniform before their unit, and sing The Marines Hymn (both verses) in front of said unit. But "criminal" charges? NFW! Their career plans for being a Marine if they had any are pretty much DONE. This incident will go down as a "benchmark" of what not to do in a combat situation.

Bob


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## NANeanderthal (Jun 2, 2011)

*HorizontalMike*

Please read for content yourself my friend. I clearly am a harsh critic of the act and think what was done was horrible. Said so different ways, It really pisses me off too because of how I know it will be used. 
My statement was "*Here is what I don't understand*. If you think it was bad, you must be some hippie that never served. And if you served you seem to think its okay." I don't understand that view as it has been expressed on here.

KnickKnack was bullied from the post early on with the assumption right out of the gate he never served (which he didn't, but thats not the point)

rosebudjim said "And, before someone out there in LJ land, who has never been shot at and never seen a body bag - STUFF IT!"

KenBee said "Being a Vietnam veteran and serving over 3 years in country you really don't want to read my thoughts on this matter because they wouldn't paint a very satisfying picture."

The clear argument coming forth was. If you have served you would be okay with these, maybe as some, even regard it as a good thing. If you are pissed about it, you clearly are some military hating commie. I am a Marine and I love the Marine Corps. I am pissed off about what my fellow Marines did.

Lastly, I am not trying to war with you Mike, I have agree with what you have posted, and I have read alot of what you have posted here, I agree with some of it, not all, but some.


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## JGM0658 (Aug 16, 2011)

Wow….I am glad I don't visit this forum often.

First, piss christ was an attempt by Andres Serrano to contrast the hypocrisy in the Roman Catholic (in which he was raised) church by denouncing practices such as Santeria (which is practiced in Cuba where one of his parents is from) , yet have us bow to a "figure" such as a crucified Christ. What would happen if you meld the two? The job of an artist is to provoke thought, or at least try to follow their train of thought. I am sure Serrano thought at the time this was a good idea. Then again the guy clearly has a fetish for human liquids and by products… 

On the other hand, as an outsider, I have to agree with KnickKnack. If you cannot see what is wrong with the actions of these marines, then right there is the problem. I won't argue the merits ( or lack thereof) of the US armed forces being on another country supposedly "fighting" for your country, it does not affect me. What does, is that it seems to me you have much bigger problems at home where the US is starting to look like the Roman empire on it's waning days. Beleaguered on all fronts, yet unable to focus on the important and basic ones.

For example, your supposed "war" on drugs. If the US used 1/10 of the money used to send troops to other countries to close your borders, you could kill two birds with one stone, end drug and immigration problems. As a Mexican I am tired of having my country fight *your* drug problem by default. I am tired of the insecurity and corruption this trade engenders just because as a nation you cannot control yourselves.

Once again, to an outsider, some of the hate filled responses given on these thread are appalling. I wonder where went all the values that the US seems to want the rest of the world believe are basic to your country. Just because your enemy behaves dishonorably it does not give you carte blanche to behave in the same manner, if your values are as important to you as you claim them to be. I wonder how can you claim that you are in these countries to "liberate", bring "freedom" and "democracy" to their people and then behave just like they do?


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

War is hell, it should be.

General Sherman knew the only way to fight a war is to totally destroy the other sides will to fight. If the civil war has the same rules of engagement that we have today we would probably still be fighting it. These sanitary wars that have been fought since WWII are wars that can never be won because we try to fight "nice"


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

TNN,
You are so busy beating your own drum that you appear deaf to any other point of view. "Hippie"?, "...you clearly are some military hating commie"? Do you realize just how easy you make it sound for you, or others with your mind set, to be led around by targeted propaganda? THAT is something an enemy would love to exploit.

My advice is to just do NOT give them the chance. Be angry at the act, but do NOT diss others and run your mouth calling others names JUST BECAUSE YOU ARE PISSED. Geez man! I am talking about taking the higher moral ground here, NOT wrestling the pig down in the mud. Americans used to be famous for looking past individual acts and understanding the bigger picture of what is at stake when at war. Don't lose hold of that bigger picture, or you will become no better than your enemy. And if you become no better than your enemy, then you ARE the enemy.


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## Bill1225 (Oct 31, 2011)

I'm a marine and i know when i was 17 i wasn't an adult but i was fighting my ass off. We can train kids to fight all we want but they are still kids I don't know the ages or ranks of these marine but i will bet they are all young and e-3 and below. Yes it was stupid, one just doing it , having evidence you did it and then putting it on the net. Give them an article 15, let them learn there lesson, don't destroy there lives. War is hell and they are kids/ young adults, kids/young adults screw up!!!!!!


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

derosa:
I think you mistook me. The last part was aimed at those who post these videos and make our military look bad, as well as our country.


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## NANeanderthal (Jun 2, 2011)

Ok Mike,
I don't know of any other way of explaining this. All of the things you are pointing out in what I am saying are the things that I am saying *others* are saying. *Others* are making the argument implicitly that I am stating explicitly. I do not think someone is a "military hating commie" if they don't like this act. I do *not* like it, do you think I am calling myself that? That seems to be the running view on here, that if you disagree you must be someone that never served and are a pansy. I'm saying, I served, I don't like. 
I am saying the "you never served, you don't know what its like" argument doesn't hold any weight with me.


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## KnickKnack (Aug 20, 2008)

@ Mr Neanderthal …
I understood that you were, I believe, summarising what had been presented in the thread.
I was pleased to see someone who served saying it was "wrong" - it was starting to seem like anyone who'd been to war was unable, suddenly, to tell right from wrong.

The old expression says "Two wrongs don't make a right".
Now we seem to have a new equation along the lines of…
"5 wrongs + 3 attrocities + they did it first = we can do what we like" 
I reject this.
I also reject this notion that "unless you've served you don't know so shut up".
I've never served.
True.
I'm grateful to those who have, and do, and will, serve.
I have no conception of the horrors of war.
True.
And, without such knowledge, I am unable to fully grasp what has *lead* these marines to do something that is *wrong*. But it's still wrong. Argue that the horrors of war has clouded their judgment. Argue that the horrors of war has, temporarily, left them unable to tell right from wrong. Argue that the balance of their minds was disturbed by the horrors of war. All these are *reasons* to *explain* why something *wrong* was done. But none of them make it any the less *wrong*.

These sanitary wars that have been fought since WWII are wars that can never be won because we try to fight "nice"
An interesting viewpoint, but not, I believe, true.

Firstly, I don't think we fought "nice" in WWII - the Dresden and Hamburg carpet bombing, to pick just 2 examples, weren't "nice" at all. (Please note - I am not making a judgement on whether we should, or should not, have done this, just pointing out that it wasn't "nice")

Secondly, I don't think we're fighting "nice" now - this is one example, others have been mentioned in various posts above, and I strongly suspect that, for every 1 we hear about, another 10 go unreported. The use of Agent Orange and Agent Blue during the Vietnam wasn't "nice" (Please note - I am not making a judgement on whether you should, or should not, have done this, just pointing out that it wasn't "nice"). This is, *imho*, a *good* reason for the press to be out there in the combat zone.

Thirdly, and, I think, most importantly, post WWII wars were/are fights to impose *our* will on other people, in *their country* - excepting a country run by sheep, I don't think such a war can be won.

Fourthly, and this is a particular bee in my bonnet, we're inconsistent about where we do, and where we do not, chose to fight…
What have we done about Syria, a country with little freedom and no democracy? More people have been killed than were killed in Libya, yet we do nothing.
We are friends with Saudi Arabia - that well known free and democratic country.
We fought in Kuwait (and I think won), to re-establish the Emir as supreme ruler - nice to see how we tried to get democracy going there.
We are fighting the Taliban, and supporting the current regime in Afghanistan, yet that regime is almost as bad - paragraph 1 of which is - "An Afghan bill allowing a husband to starve his wife if she refuses to have sex has been published in the official gazette and become law." What a giant leap forward we've bought with all those lives!
There is a somewhat large country with a dismal human rights record - with little or no freedom and no democracy. Do we fight? Sanctions maybe? *No* - we *court* these people.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

*Fourthly, and this is a particular bee in my bonnet, we're inconsistent about where we do, and where we do not, chose to fight…*

KnickKnack, I couldn't agree with you more on that statement. Oh, there's a reason why we choose the fights we choose, but the government's never honest about it. It always comes down to a combination of oil, money, and politics. Human rights issues in the middle east pale in comparison to what has been and is going on in some of the poor, desolate countries in Africa. And yet you never see us jumping into action in those places, because they have no financial or strategic value to us.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

TNN,
Now that is a better explanation that I understand. As others have often said, "we really need a sarcasm key" (as well as some others) on our computer keyboard.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Charlie,
Right on target, as usual…


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## MrAl (Sep 3, 2007)

it is very sad that there is a growing number of people who cherish the safety of their home and country but scorn the few who against great odds sacrifice much and sometimes all to keep them and theirs, safe and well. Our military and political leaders could certainly spend their time more wisely trying to help our troops, not condemn them for something so trite. When was the last time these brave "leaders" went out on a patrol.
Not one of the photo ops that was set up for them. You know, the ones with real bullets and ied's. Real taliboos and all. Their fact finding missions could be held on a hollywood soundset and would save the taxpayer a lot of money. I don't believe a legitimate newsperson would have persued this as newsworthy.
These soldiers didn't piss on muslims, they pissed on taliban. Cut and dried, thats it. Military leaders, politicians, newspeople and some muslims have decided the taliban should be treated as an honorable foe even though they do not reciprocate.
When these soldiers leave the service, maybe they will get great paying jobs because of this. You know, like the politicians do when they screw up.
I was in the service. We had a saying for situations such as this: PISS ON IT.

Col. West is excluded from my anti-politician statements. Every now and then--a good one.


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

KnickKnack taking a leak on a corpse is hardly an atrocity, I imagine alot worse happens in the morgues in our very own country by civilians occasionally.

When I refer to WWII I refer to cutting the ears of the dead Japanese to make a necklace, shooting your officer in charge in the back of the head because you didnt like him, and other reasons the Japanese would not surrender to the marines. I have heard these stories from my grandfather, God only knows what he didnt talk about.


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## BobM001 (Jan 8, 2012)

Just got this from a friend of mine relative to this subject/situation:

This from a Friend of mine,

Okay, I have to say something about the Marine pissing incident. Was it
inappropriate? Yes. Would I have done it? Probably not. Would I have done it
when I was 19? Maybe. Were there times that I may have done it in Viet Nam
if time permitted? There is a good chance for, "probably". I was 22 when I
was there and was called the old man and pops.

We send kids a year out of high school to the worst hell holes on earth and
expect them to behave better than they did at their senior prom. So many
Americans have lived for multiple generations with security at home that
they can't comprehend what goes on in other parts of the world. "War is
Hell", isn't just something they say in the movies. First of all, you are
exhausted all the time because you never sleep deeply. Your body is running
on high idle even when you try to rest. The places we send these kids to,
stink from lack of sanitation. There are bugs and mold and mildew and trash
and human waste everywhere. You are in some level of fear all the time. You
have seen, smelled, heard, touched and done things no sane person would ever
want to do.

There is no script for war. It is improv at it's best. ******************** happens and it
happens fast. A blind eye should be turned to many, many things.

We have no idea what led up to this incident. Did these kids eat in the past
24 hours? Have they slept in the past 36 hours? What did these talabaners
do?

War is about killing people and breaking their things. We have forgotten how
to fight. You can't win peoples hearts while shooting their Uncle Fred. We
knock down a dung and stick shed, and then replace it with a $12,000,000
hospital! Well who won that one?

This is how we need to fight.

1. Go in, kick ass on those who pissed us off.

2. Destroy their infrastructure.

3. Go home when you are sure they won't have the desire to screw with us
again for at least two generations.

I hate war. I'm glad my Sons didn't have to go to war.

In reference to current times, we will never win the hearts of muslims.
They don't even like themselves, hate their family and kill their neighbors,
so what chance do we stand. The only course to follow is to convince them
that the cost of messing with the west is way to too high.

Back to the pissing kids. Slap their hands, tell them not to do it again and
not to try to figure out how pissing is bad and killing is okay.

War is HELL; it sucks, smells bad and is bad for your physical and mental
health. Don't sit in your recliner watching CNN and pass judgment on these
kids.

Nuf said, n'est pas?


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

I think those marines should lose a stripe as punishment. Not only is it behavior unbecoming a marine, it is also unbecoming anyone. We don't need to get down to their level. We are better than that. We might expect that behavior from Taliban, but not from a U.S. Marine. But of course the media is wrong in publizing it.
Chipmunk expressed it better than I did.


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## Scarecrow1S1T (Feb 27, 2012)

ok, let me start by saying ive been a longtime reader of LJs. this post motivated me to actually make an account so i could "have my say"

Im not going to try to piss anyone off or tell anyone that their opinion is wrong. But you all need to understand how our modern Marine Corps works. 
Yes, honor courage committment is important. but so is killing. thats what you never hear about on the commercials. Killing other people doesnt come easily to most of us. Marine boot camp, training, and even everyday life is designed for one purpose. To make killing America's enemies acceptable to you.

In order to do this, you have to learn how to dehumanize your enemy. from what i read, we did this during WWII. "Yellow Devils" and all that. So to a combat Marine, a taliban fighter is just "a dirty F-n Hadji"

Its easier to kill something you consider to be nonhuman. therefore, it must have been much easier for these marines to piss on their dead enemies. Im not saying its right or wrong, Just saying it like it is. So to blame them for seeing the enemy as nonhuman wont make any sense to them. 
the problem is, theres nothing wrong with the training. We need our warfighters to think like this. If a marine hesitates for a second on a kill shot, another marine could die. As Gen. Patton said, "you dont win wars by dying for your country, you win by making the other SOB die for his." Maybe these Marines took it too far. at least by what everyone is saying. How about instead of punishing them, first we get them some Psych evals? Maybe that training was a little too good, and their unit need to take it down a notch. Me personally, i cant say that i would or wouldnt have done it when i was in Iraq.

As for the draft idea, i dont think this would work. From what i have seen personally. keep in mind i said what I have seen, Most americans are too weak mentally. Ive seen men have what the Docs called a "mental break." they were unable to deal with the idea of killing another man. On some level i envy these people, on some level i dont. btw heres a sidenote. im all for womens equality, letting them vote and have jobs that pay the same as men. But if women want to be equal, i think they should have to enroll at the selective service as well. If we get in a war where we need men to fight, we'll also need men and women as support personel.

All in all, let me just say this. The world is a scary place. Any american reading this should feel lucky to live where they do. You most likely arent too worried about a suicide bomber or an IED blowing up your house, family, or loved ones. we have our problems for sure, but not like places ive seen.

"Americans sleep peacibly in their beds at night because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf" 
Please, please, support these men, God knows we need it. Pray for them, dont judge them. you may not understand what they do, but please make an effort to understand how their minds work. Four marines did something that our society says is wrong. We never hear about the good things these men did. No one cares that they killed our enemies. that the deaths of evil men save the lives of the innocent.

For any of you wondering, I served active duty USMC from 2005 til 2009. i spent 2007 in Iraq, and i swear im not trying to piss anyone off or say anyone is wrong


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## jockmike2 (Oct 10, 2006)

The only way to fight barbarians, is to be as barbaric as they are. We teach that in basic training. Yea, their only mistake was being filmed. People here don't realize these people are living in the stone age. Hunkered down in caves after ambushes on our guys. That is the war they are fighting. Hit and run, and roadside IED's. I say bomb them back further than the stone age. They have no intention of ever coming together as a country. They are a bunch of tribes that have intentions of eliminating other tribes, because they can't and won't get along. They would sell out their own brother. These are not humane people folks, they've lived this way for thousands of years and we're not going to change their thinking. If we learned anything in Vietnam, it should be this lesson. Also don't forget these are the one of the biggest exporters of Opium and Hashish. Sorry to those I offended.


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

Good post Scarecrow and jockmike.
Obiviouslly this issue died down only to be fueled by other issues.
Nothing has changed, they still hate us. Always have always will. We should pack our kit and come home. There is no "mission" there for us.


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## jockmike2 (Oct 10, 2006)

By the way I was drafted during Nam. No I never saw combat, so I don't know how I'd react to any war situation, but to say it's ok that we KILLED these people, but pissing on them is wrong leaves me just befuddled.


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## hydrohillbilly (Jan 28, 2012)

My daughter is a marine she did 2 tours in Iraq can you imagine what went thru my head thinking about what might happen if she fell into the talibans hands,first of all people forget we are dealing with kids 18-21 year olds mostly slap these guys on the wrist and let them get back to the war TO THE VICTOR GOES THE SPOILS


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## vman154 (Oct 2, 2011)

i thank you 100% right


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## jockmike2 (Oct 10, 2006)

God look out for your daughter, and I'm with vman154.


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