# Any way to put this picnic table together without putting nails everywhere?



## RecoveringDeveloper (May 20, 2019)

Hi, so I finally sold something! The picnic table in the image below. Here are the plans for anyone interested.

Anyways, so one thing that …well I'm not going to say it keeps me up at night but I do worry about it is …that whole table is held together with two pocket holes at each joint. In particular each base of each seat has, I think, four nails pointing up! I mean the wood is there but if the wood ever broke for some reason someone could get hurt.

Additionally, the boards that are joined at a 45 degree angle aren't as strong as I would like them to be. That could be because of how soft the wood was though.

How can I improve the way I'm building this table to make it safer and, if possible, stronger?


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## mudflap4869 (May 28, 2014)

No nails needed. Drill and set hardwood dowels in all the connections, including the miters. That would make a nice presentation.


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## therealSteveN (Oct 29, 2016)

Essentially what you describe IS a picnic table. Screws usually, some bolts, maybe a nail here, and there, but you are talking about PT lumber, which is snake like when it comes to being straight for long. Screws and fasteners keep it honest.

Can you make one without metal fasteners, sure, but you'll want to use Ipe, or some other hardwood, that will allow woodworking joints, and not rot. Will the buying public go for that? When Billy Bob down the street can sell them a BIG picnic table for XXXXX, I can guarantee it will be filled with metal fasteners, and be out of PT lumber.

I can see in this day and age where a savvy maker does use the correct woods, and woodworking joints, and his sales pitch is do you really want to poison yourself, AND your small helpless children, when I can get you into an environmentally friendly, and Shaker safe joinery…..blah blah blah. You would have to smash the classic picnic table, and sell the upgraded one. Lot's of folks are all rah rah rah, no poison for me…... What it costs how much!!!!!!!! shocked face….... Even when the makers flip to the safer plastic components, they are still using metal hardware.


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## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

I would add some pieces underneath the ends and screw them to the top pieces from underneath. This would strengthen the miter joints.

Sad fact is that the wood is going to twist and bend. The joints like Nice now but give it some time. Reinforcing the joints underneath the top and seats could help.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

When you say that the nails are pointing up, do you mean that they are driven in from the bottom? That is not how nails are supposed to be used and seems like it is guaranteed to fail as soon as you get some moisture related swelling and shrinking. I would nail or screw them down from the top and use stainless nails or screws to prevent staining from the iron/tannin reaction. Perhaps if you put some construction adhesive down first to add an extra bond will also help make it stronger?


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## Sawdust35 (Jan 15, 2016)

For the mitered joints: half-lap miter; bridal joint miter; biscuits; dominos (loose tenon); dowels (as mentioned above) or a miter with a spline. I would use a high quality epoxy for glue up. Once the joint is glued, you could also install wood dowels (pins) from underneath to secure joint. 
If you plan on selling more tables, making a jig to prep the miter joints would save time and make joint fitting faster.


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## RecoveringDeveloper (May 20, 2019)

@Lazyman, yeah, on 16 nails the pointy end is towards the sky. You're saying those will eventually come undone? I did them from the bottom so they wouldn't be visible on the top.

@Sawdust35, so you would put the thing together with glue? Someone told me that glue would come undone on a picnic table. Secondly, install the dowel on the miter joint after the glue up? doesn't the dowel go into the face of the boards that are being joined?


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## Sawdust35 (Jan 15, 2016)

> @Sawdust35, so you would put the thing together with glue? Someone told me that glue would come undone on a picnic table. Secondly, install the dowel on the miter joint after the glue up? doesn t the dowel go into the face of the boards that are being joined?
> 
> - RecoveringDeveloper


I would approach the frame of the table top and bench's (as depicted in the original post's pic) like a picture frame build. When creating the miters, I would use epoxy to complement the joinery used.

Mitered joint formed with dowels:









Pinned miter with spline:









Hope the pics explain my previous post.

With the heavy duty construction adhesives available (liquid nails/loctite PL adhesives) and several clamps, you could assemble the horizontal joints without mechanical fasteners.

If it were me and I was building the picnic table to last a long time, I would not solely rely on any adhesive for joining vertical joints that would be exposed to any shearing force or gluing up a miter or butt joint where end-grain is being glued and no other joinery or mechanical faster is being used.


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## bmerrill (Mar 14, 2018)

Miter corners on a deck cocktail rail always come apart. I see this being no different. 
In moving the table, it will most likely be lifted by the cross rails. I see them failing.
You can use hidden deck fasteners for the top and seats. Even then, some of the fasteners will have to be counter sunk and plugged.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

> @Lazyman, yeah, on 16 nails the pointy end is towards the sky. You re saying those will eventually come undone? I did them from the bottom so they wouldn t be visible on the top.
> 
> - RecoveringDeveloper


Yes, I believe that the nails will eventually work loose. When you drive them from above, they go completely through and most of the nail is usually in the piece it is attached to with the head of the nail making sure that the piece is held down. Driving the nails from below means that only a fraction of the nail (the tapered end) is in the piece you are holding down and the head isn't there to provide the extra holding power when the hole expands due to moisture shifts. And if someone tries to lift the table by one of those boards it probably won't take long for it to come off.

It didn't occur to me that the end pieces on the top and seats are not supported underneath. I think that those are probably going to come off eventually as well. They will be sat on, leaned on and used to lift or move the table. You need some sort of through joinery to hold them on and even then, they might not hold up to weather and may loosen over time.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

I would definitely eliminate the mitered band; might be OK for an interior table, but not for one that is exposed to the weather. Picnic tables are made the way they are because the simple construction has stood the sands of time. I have made many picnic tables only to have them last maybe 2 or 3 seasons. If I were making one today, I would use the faux wood planks used for decking. That's a very nice looking table, but it won't last one season.


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