# Sawstops



## bibideebah (Jan 19, 2021)

I've seen the video abotu the Sawstop, but they are incredibly expensive. Are there any other brands/altervnatives for cheaper? I don't want to buy one thats super cheap and have it fail or something, but isd there something in the middle? I'm looking for one thats cheaper but offers more safety than a cheap hand guard, but less expensive then a full on sawstop. Got any recomendations? Or will I just have to save up for a while?


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## Kudzupatch (Feb 3, 2015)

The only alternative is being very careful to keep you hand out of the blade.

There was something on here about a new product in development that could be added on.

I am not anti-SawStop, I think it is great idea. My problem is two fold. One if the price. Second is that there are so many other machines in the shop that will cut you finger off just as fast.

I have been cut pretty bad twice by the bandsaw. My only table saw injury was a kickback of a tiny cutoff that vibrated into the blade. Freak accident but SS wouldn't help me in any of those.


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

Actually, aside from the auto-brake system on the SS, the competitors have essentially the same safety features, such as a riving knife, such things are now required by federal law. As with all things in the shop, the best safety device is the one between your ears. So don't feel left out if you can't buy a SS. I have one and think it's a great saw….but it's not the only one available. I'd start by looking at the Grizzly offerings.


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

> Actually, aside from the auto-brake system on the SS, the competitors have essentially the same safety features, such as a riving knife, such things are now required by federal law. As with all things in the shop, the best safety device is the one between your ears. So don t feel left out if you can t buy a SS. I have one and think it s a great saw….but it s not the only one available. I d start by looking at the Grizzly offerings.
> 
> - Fred Hargis


Excellent advise, as usual :-D


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## menuisierJC (Jan 16, 2021)

I use my table saw more than any other stationary tool I own, so I figure that it is the biggest risk for me. With that in mind, I shelled out the money for a Sawstop. I've also noted that if you buy top quality tools and later want to sell them, people will be lined up at your door wanting to buy them.


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

Find a saw you like that has all the bells and whistles you are looking for and compare that price to an equally set up Saw Stop. That difference is what you are paying for the safety feature. Make your decision based on that. When an employee lost some finger tips in a non work related accident his medical bills exceeded $35,000 and counting along with three months out of work. That convinced me to pay for saw stop.


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## hotbyte (Apr 3, 2010)

Same here. You can get injured with other tools but when the amount of time using a table saw is factored in, it really increases risk factor.



> I use my table saw more than any other stationary tool I own, so I figure that it is the biggest risk for me. With that in mind, I shelled out the money for a Sawstop. I ve also noted that if you buy top quality tools and later want to sell them, people will be lined up at your door wanting to buy them.
> 
> - menuisierJC


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## hotbyte (Apr 3, 2010)

I'll say "same here" again 



> Find a saw you like that has all the bells and whistles you are looking for and compare that price to an equally set up Saw Stop. That difference is what you are paying for the safety feature. Make your decision based on that. When an employee lost some finger tips in a non work related accident his medical bills exceeded $35,000 and counting along with three months out of work. That convinced me to pay for saw stop.
> 
> - controlfreak


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## tvrgeek (Nov 19, 2013)

SawStop is the only blade brake saw until the patents run out. It is a very fine saw, but on your floor, about $4K. There are other very fine saws for a lot less money. For me, a true riving knife is by far the most important safety feature. Then, push blocks, sticks, sleds, and jigs. Just never get within 6 inches of the blade. Actually dust collection is up there as dust can kill you, just slower.

For all those who just say "be careful" well I can guarantee you every accident out there was someone who thought they were being careful. Kind of like motorcycle riders. There are those who have laid their bike down, and those who will lay their bike down. Or the parody Danny Ongias* said there were two kinds of Porsche drivers, who have hit a telephone backwards and those who will hit a telephone backwards"

In the 3 HP cabinet class, Powermatic/Baleigh is sweet. Several Grizzly, a Jet, Laguna, and the brand I have come to respect, Harvey. I notice Grizzly is selling South Bend that looks like a small upgrade to theirs. They are ALL made in the same 3 or 4 factories. The only saw with universal bad quality reviews is Delta. Bummer as they used to be the best and some of the new Unisaw features are really nice. I would not go for a "hybrid" as it is just a light contractor saw on a box for more money.

Each has it's good and bad features. Some have a very short distance from the blade to the front edge. Laguna for one, and the South Bend is pretty short. To me, that would limit my sled and crosscuts. I just got feedback from Laguna (F3 is a nice bit of kit) and they said they had never thought about that. Well, they are band saw pros.

I thought my Ridgid contractor saw was a life-time tool, but after about 10 years, gee I want a 3 HP cabinet. C300 Harvey is on my wish list. Still, I may pay double the price for the SawStop PCS. I am careful. I use sleds and blocks, but I do like my fingers very much. If the PCS was a piece of junk with a brake, then I could ignore it, but no, it is actually a very good saw. As good as a PM2000? Maybe not quite.

If I was a contractor and needed a job site saw, no way I would risk not having a SS as who knows what helper could get hurt. If I had a cabinet shop, again, no question ( except for the big sliding table and autofeed industrial machines) Why underwriters tolerate any not a SS, I do not know. I sure would not write a policy like that. For the home use, it is your decision. As the old saying goes, you can lead a horse to water, but not make him drink.

As I have mentioned every time someone goes looking for a saw and does not search the forum, download the parts diagram for all the saws you are interested in. You can see which ones share which trunnions. The trunnion is the saw. The rest is just holding it up. Bigger and heavier the better.

Do understand, the SS will not prevent any injury, just more likely to get a cut and maybe a stitch rather than losing your finger or slicing your forearm reaching. It is great, but not perfect so it is no excuse to be careless. Besides, a trigger means $100 for a blade and $70 for a cartridge. Much cheaper than an emergency visit.


For the kids out there, Danny was a motorcycle racer who moved to Indy cars and sports cars. The joke was that he wrote the shortest book about racing ever. " Walls I have missed" He was very talented, but did not transition from youthful exuberance to old and crafty on the track as he got a little older.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> For all those who just say "be careful" well I can guarantee you every accident out there was someone who thought they were being careful.
> 
> Besides, a trigger means $100 for a blade and $70 for a cartridge. Much cheaper than an emergency visit.


I disagree. Most accidents are people becoming complacent and laxing on safety. They may claim they were being safe later to save face and not look like a fool.

And sounds like the people spending $35k on emergency room visits should focus on getting health insurance first before getting finger chopping machines.

Not saying don't get a sawstop if it makes you feel safer. Just that its not a necessity. If you don't have health insurance, that should be your priority


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

> I disagree. Most accidents are people becoming complacent and laxing on safety. They may claim they were being safe later to save face and not look like a fool.
> 
> And sounds like the people spending $35k on emergency room visits should focus on getting health insurance first before getting finger chopping machines.
> 
> ...


Myself I fear repetitive cuts more than any other. A single cut I am very focus on every aspect of safety. When doing repetitive cuts there tends to be a rhythm and that is when I feel danger creeping in.

He does have insurance but will be paying something out of pocket too I imagine. For me my deductible alone is $3000.00. So when I did the math I bought the $1400.00 job site Saw Stop and paid for the added dado brake & insert selling the crappy Kobalt I had. I am $1500 ahead of one accident and have a much better saw. I feel better about it and that is just me. If I ever manage a larger shop without the need to go outside for long rip cuts I will sell for about half and get another one. We all have different thoughts on the worthiness of saw stop much like the best way to sharpen tools. One can only search their sole to decide it is for them and within their budget.


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## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

SAWSTOP is about which side of the fence your on.

The side that sees it's advantages and the side that doesn't.

As a profession all shops I worked for had workman's comp.

For the hobbyist they may carry insurance or not and could seriously jeopardize your full time job.

When I got hurt In 85 I got workman's comp for 2 months. 1/2 of my normal pay.

So if you can aford it and want to be a player, it's your call…


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## tvrgeek (Nov 19, 2013)

No amount of insurance can replace a finger.

My closest have been flicking away waste ( impatience) and a small piece rip that had room to move between the blade and splitter. Grabbed it and flung it at high speed, pulled my push block out of my hand and I landed on the fence, not the blade. It would have literally cut my hand in half. A riving knife would have prevented it.

I stand by, for a hobbyist, it is your choice. A C-300-30 is $1300 ( on sale right now) . A PCS is about $4000. If I were a business, I would not think twice. If I were an insurance company, I would not insure a non-saw-stop.

We do still have the right to make bad decisions. That is not true everywhere. Personally the lighter job site saws kind of scare me.


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## okiedoc1980 (Nov 25, 2020)

For what it is worth: Saw stop patents begin to expire in August 2021. There are several, not all will expire before 2024 however.

Per Wikipedia:
August 2021
The SawStop patents begin to expire in August 2021, with filed extensions this could extend until April 2024 for the early patents. Given that there are about 100 patents, patent protection for this product line may continue for some years.


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

> For what it is worth: Saw stop patents begin to expire in August 2021. There are several, not all will expire before 2024 however.
> - okiedoc1980


And the owner/inventor was/is a patent attorney - so they were written to be as vague and over-reaching as humanly possible - as was evidenced in the Bosch attempt at marketing their version based on a completely different (and superior IMO) technology and non-destructive blade extraction method.

Cheers,
Brad


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## Foghorn (Jan 30, 2020)

> For what it is worth: Saw stop patents begin to expire in August 2021. There are several, not all will expire before 2024 however.
> - okiedoc1980
> 
> And the owner/inventor was/is a patent attorney - so they were written to be as vague and over-reaching as humanly possible - as was evidenced in the Bosch attempt at marketing their version based on a completely different (and superior IMO) technology and non-destructive blade extraction method.
> ...


A lot of the reason for the bile directed at Sawstop. Not because it isn't a great technology or product. What's the difference between a lawyer and a catfish? One's a bottom dwelling scumbag and the other one lives in the river. No real care for the well being of their fellow beings. Just my opinion of course. In my business, we use machines that will kill you in a fraction of a second and don't have anything approaching Sawstop technology. Safety learnings are shared freely however. It is industry compared to homeowner use however. It's a little like Volvo and the industry leading safety innovations years ago that they freely shared with anybody else that wanted to use them for no charge.


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## tvrgeek (Nov 19, 2013)

> For what it is worth: Saw stop patents begin to expire in August 2021. There are several, not all will expire before 2024 however.
> - okiedoc1980
> 
> And the owner/inventor was/is a patent attorney - so they were written to be as vague and over-reaching as humanly possible - as was evidenced in the Bosch attempt at marketing their version based on a completely different technology and blade extraction method.
> ...


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## CWWoodworking (Nov 28, 2017)

What's everyone's guess on how many more lawyers Bosch has than SS? My guess would be at least 2 dozen.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

I think patent protections were a good idea when they were invented, similar to unions. But they are super outdated in today's fast moving society. Its only holding things back to what we otherwise could accomplish.


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## RClark (Jun 1, 2012)

> No amount of insurance can replace a finger.
> 
> My closest have been flicking away waste ( impatience) and a small piece rip that had room to move between the blade and splitter. Grabbed it and flung it at high speed, pulled my push block out of my hand and I landed on the fence, not the blade. It would have literally cut my hand in half. A riving knife would have prevented it.
> 
> ...


You've quoted that $4000 cost several times. Rockler is advertising a price today of the 3HP PCS saw with 36" fence of $3099. Of course, if you throw in a Dado brake that's about $100 more. The similar class Powermatic saw (3HP with 30" fence) is about $3400. In my opinion, the SS and the Powermatic are in the same tier of saws. Others may disagree, and that's fine.

Both saws will have shipping costs added to that, so that's a wash. One can avoid shipping costs by going to a local dealer

True that Grizzly or some other brands will be significantly less cost than the SawStop or the Powermatic.

For me, the safety feature was the selling point. The quality and setup ease when I got the saw was a much-appreciated bonus.

As human beings, 99.99% of us are not capable of 100% diligence in all tasks. We're most likely to have our most major screw-ups when doing something we've done "a thousand times." That goes for the actions in the shop, while driving across town, using ladders around the house, mowing the lawn…


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## CWWoodworking (Nov 28, 2017)

> I think patent protections were a good idea when they were invented, similar to unions. But they are super outdated in today's fast moving society. Its only holding things back to what we otherwise could accomplish.
> 
> - SMP


So here's the problem with that. How fast do you think powermatic, jet, delta, Bosch, etc would have put an upstart like SS out of business if they didn't blanket patent the technology?

They wouldn't have lasted 5 years.

Innovation and technology is the only thing left. You have to protect it at all cost. Otherwise you will get trampled by bigger companies with more money.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> I think patent protections were a good idea when they were invented, similar to unions. But they are super outdated in today's fast moving society. Its only holding things back to what we otherwise could accomplish.
> 
> - SMP
> 
> ...


What I mean is the length of time. Sure, in the old days you invented a new hand plane and it took years to build a factory and get everything configured, produce enough products to sell and market etc, get a fleet of horses to deliver them by stagecoach to the other 12 states, etc….

Nowadays, you invent a blanket with feet on them put it on an infomercial, and you get a billion dollars within 6 months.


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## Foghorn (Jan 30, 2020)

> For what it is worth: Saw stop patents begin to expire in August 2021. There are several, not all will expire before 2024 however.
> - okiedoc1980
> 
> And the owner/inventor was/is a patent attorney - so they were written to be as vague and over-reaching as humanly possible - as was evidenced in the Bosch attempt at marketing their version based on a completely different (and superior IMO) technology and non-destructive blade extraction method.
> ...


A lot of the reason for the bile directed at Sawstop. Not because it isn't a great technology or product. What's the difference between a lawyer and a catfish? One's a bottom dwelling scumbag and the other one lives in the river. No real care for the well being of their fellow beings. Just my opinion of course. In my business, we use machines that will kill you in a fraction of a second and don't have anything approaching Sawstop technology. Safety learnings are shared freely however. It is industry compared to homeowner use however.


> I think patent protections were a good idea when they were invented, similar to unions. But they are super outdated in today's fast moving society. Its only holding things back to what we otherwise could accomplish.
> 
> - SMP
> 
> ...


I definitely agree although reasonable licensing fees could have been a major change for the good rather than the approach taken by what's his name. When it comes to safety, it's just a different thing not only in my mind. Getting rich unreasonably for something that improves safety isn't something that happens in my business which is industrial construction. Technology is shared freely and reasonably in a collective drive to improve safety.


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## RClark (Jun 1, 2012)

> I think patent protections were a good idea when they were invented, similar to unions. But they are super outdated in today's fast moving society. Its only holding things back to what we otherwise could accomplish.
> 
> - SMP


So, if we remove patent protections, what's the incentive to invent or innovate? "For the good of humanity" only goes so far. The SawStop inventor invented the technology, and then managed to get his invention into production and sell a great deal of product. He took on a great deal of financial risk to bring his product to market. Without those patent protections, that technology would have been appropriated very quickly and deprive him of the fruits of his labor.

I don't care for some the legal wrangling the SawStop inventor has engaged in over the years. But he's entitled to the patent for his invention. And he's also entitled (indeed, required in the eyes of the law) to jealously guard those patents to keep them in effect.


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## HowardAppel (Feb 3, 2010)

> I think patent protections were a good idea when they were invented, similar to unions. But they are super outdated in today's fast moving society. Its only holding things back to what we otherwise could accomplish.
> 
> - SMP
> 
> ...


As a retired corporate lawyer who spent 25+ years representing Fortune 500 companies, a few points: If you invent a blanket with feet on it, you are not likely to get a patent-you might be able to claim "patent pending" if you filed an application but that is not a patent; I don't know what you do, or did, for a living, but from your arguments you must not have valued your work highly; Bosch had the money to hire the best patent litigators and litigate this forever-the fact that they didn't force the litigation tells me that their patent litigators told them that their product infringed on SawStop; there are other protection systems on the market-Felder has a completely different concept and design-but they only offer it on their Format series and with the PCS (Preventative Contact System) the machine starts at around 45-50K; the SawStop inventor originally offered to license his design to the major manufacturers and they all passed, reportedly because having it on some of their new machines would expose them to liability for not including on all of their machines-I have heard that but don't know if that was the actual reason; the inventor only decided to build saws because he believed in his technology; as to the argument that as long as one practices safe procedures there is nothing to worry about-I suspect most of the persons injured thought they had been; and last, the implication that if a person has medical insurance one doesn't need a SawStop is nonsense-insurance might pay for your medical bills, but, in the example cited, the man still lost his finger, will likely have to have surgery/ies and need physical therapy and will be less able the rest of his life.

I bought a PM in 1995, damned good saw. When the SawStop cabinet saw came out, I bought one and donated the 66 to the local community college program. Never regretted it.


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## dbw (Dec 2, 2013)

> I use my table saw more than any other stationary tool I own, so I figure that it is the biggest risk for me. With that in mind, I shelled out the money for a Sawstop. I ve also noted that if you buy top quality tools and later want to sell them, people will be lined up at your door wanting to buy them.
> 
> - menuisierJC


+1


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

So you donated the unsafe saw to a college teaching beginners? I don't donate anything unsafe for fear of liability.


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## HowardAppel (Feb 3, 2010)

> So you donated the unsafe saw to a college teaching beginners? I don t donate anything unsafe for fear of liability.
> 
> - ibewjon


Please show me the exact language where I said it was unsafe. You won't be able to because I never said. Let me clarify for those with comprehension difficulties-I bought the SS because i thought it was safer and as I said initially, the 66 was a damned good saw.

Don't put words in my mouth.


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

If I were to spend 3 or 4 thousand dollars on a table saw it better have at 12 inch blade 16 would be better. 
My other beef with a saw stop is it destroys blades. Sometimes for no reason sometimes because a simple mistake that had nothing to do with your finger getting cut. 
That's unacceptable to me. 
I also believe it teaches poor safety practices. 
Other then that its great sorta


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

> If I were to spend 3 or 4 thousand dollars on a table saw it better have at 12 inch blade 16 would be better.
> My other beef with a saw stop is it destroys blades. Sometimes for no reason sometimes because a simple mistake that had nothing to do with your finger getting cut.
> That's unacceptable to me.
> I also believe it teaches poor safety practices.
> ...


Well, the feature that saves my appendages makes me just that much more careful when I'm cutting wood, so that I don't lose money on the blade and brake. I personally am more careful, due to not wanting to pay for a blade and brake.


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## tvrgeek (Nov 19, 2013)

> I think patent protections were a good idea when they were invented, similar to unions. But they are super outdated in today's fast moving society. Its only holding things back to what we otherwise could accomplish.
> 
> - SMP


 Do you have a better idea? How do you protect maybe years of development and costs, bright ideas etc from just being taken from you? Do you work for free? Do you invest millions of dollars into development and turn it open source? Or are you in favor of the total intellectual property theft a couple countries I can think of do? Why would anyone ever invent or improve anything if they can't recover their cost and hopefully make a profit. It is called "making a living" We go to school for years, get degrees, get certifications, get insurance, and set up businesses so we can bring our ideas to market and hopefully feed our family.

If you have a solution, please let the world know. 
Now, inventions made by the US Federal Government are free to US citizens because we already paid for them. 
I HAVE given ideas to industry . A couple even made it into production. I did so as I have no intention of perusing them.

I am sorry if I sound a bit harsh, but gee whizz, you are asking for something for nothing.


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## tvrgeek (Nov 19, 2013)

I have heard a lot of rumors about false trigger but never seen a documented case. 
If you cut wet lumber without turning it off, well, that is not the saw's fault.

I agree, some will get careless because they think it is safe. It is not safe, just less dangerous. Can't fix stupid.

Personally, I have no idea why I would want a 12 or 16 inch saw. Never needed one, don't have the electrical supply for one. A 3 HP, 10 inch is a sweet spot.


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## therealSteveN (Oct 29, 2016)

> If I were to spend 3 or 4 thousand dollars on a table saw it better have at 12 inch blade 16 would be better.
> My other beef with a saw stop is it destroys blades. Sometimes for no reason sometimes because a simple mistake that had nothing to do with your finger getting cut.
> That's unacceptable to me.
> I also believe it teaches poor safety practices.
> ...


 Nice summation

Loved the, other than that it's great sorta…....

I really do believe it fosters an unsafe environment, you seldom see a saw guard on one in use. Some day if a bad bunch of sensors gets shipped out, it's gonna be a bloodbath somewhere.


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

I always here about the wet lumber causing a false trigger and they do have a bypass and test indicator. But I saw a video of someone cutting treated wood with puddles of water on the saw table without triggering which makes me wonder how wet the wood needs to be. The only false triggers I have read about were mostly a miter fence touching the blade. Not sure I want that to happen to a regular saw either.


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## 75c (Jan 23, 2021)

It might be just me I do get the idea of the saw stop but I personally don't like the castings of the trunions. Looks cheaply made. Personally as far as build quality I don't think they hold a candle to a powermatic 66 or a general 350/650.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

Ok, you thought the old saw was LESS SAFE, and the saw stop was MORE SAFE. And you donated the LESS SAFE saw because it was not safe enough for you.


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

Unless the institution has a "Saw Stop only" policy I think the donation was greatly appreciated. I don't see any difference between donating or selling a saw after deciding on the the merits of Saw Stop and buying one. The old saw is no more safe or dangerous as the day it was made. If the institution that received the old saw had a problem they would likely sell it to raise money for a tool that better suits their needs. Either way I doubt anyone would scrap a saw because it is not a saw stop "safe" saw. That old saw will live on for years to come.


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## tvrgeek (Nov 19, 2013)

> It might be just me I do get the idea of the saw stop but I personally don t like the castings of the trunions. Looks cheaply made. Personally as far as build quality I don t think they hold a candle to a powermatic 66 or a general 350/650.
> 
> - 75c


 Well, what does? Do you think a PM2000 is a step down?

Two kinds of trunnions, pivot or slide way. Not sure what is good or bad about either. Downloading the parts manuals, one can get a general idea of how robust. Some suggest the SS is rather beefy to withstand the brake. Maybe salesmanship.

I would scrap anything smaller than a contractor saw that did not have a riving knife. Moist likely, buyer would be a rookie and most likely to get hurt. Bench top saws scare the heck out of me.


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

Douglas, some day in the far future…(remember the song: In the Year 2525?), you will be able to ask a question about Sawstop and it won't break down into the same argument/debate/whatever that has went on since the saw was introduced. Anyway, hope some of these posts helped you form an opinion. Best to you on your decision….


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## eflanders (May 2, 2013)

I worked for a time as an aide in a high school tech department, mostly in the woodworking area. In addition to assisting the teacher and students projects, I also did the majority of the maintenance on the shop machines. The shop had SS saws. My personal saw is a PM2000. Working there taught me a few things about the SS saws and allowed a great comparison to my saw. At the school we had several so-called false triggers. We also had several safety related triggers. The fact that a safety trigger happened made the use of these saws invaluable! The false triggers are quite costly to a very tight school budget but obviously worthwhile due to the saved injuries their technology allowed. Please know that we went to extreme measures properly training the kids in how to safely use each and every tool in the shop. We never had a table saw injury.

I however do not believe I would buy a SS for my own use at home. Why? Because I work with mostly rough sawn lumber which for some unknown reason was the common denominator for every false trigger. I/we suspect it had more to do with moisture than texture though. I also really dislike how the trunion is a magnet for dust buildup. I often had to manually clean out this area from dust buildup on a weekly basis to allow the blade to move to extreme positions (45' plus and/or all the way up/down in blade height). I've never had to do this on my PM in over 10 years, plus I buy mostly rough sawn lumber.

I would buy a SS portable contractor saw if I ever had the need for one again though! Contractor work demands are far different from home/hobby demands. In my experience, workers tend to be more careless on a jobsite than when they are doing things for fun. Also the constantly changing environment (here in WI) has you working often in temperature extremes. When I am cold or hot, I know I tend to rush things and take more chances than I ever should. Of the few injuries and close calls that I have ever had using woodworking machines, it was always when I was rushed and not paying close attention. Both times it was when using my jointer and never with a saw.

In summary, If you want the SS safety protection at a more affordable price, get their contractor saw and build some tables around it. The contractor saw is nearly as capable as their 10' floor model and every bit as safe.


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

> I worked for a time as an aide in a high school tech department, mostly in the woodworking area. In addition to assisting the teacher and students projects, I also did the majority of the maintenance on the shop machines. The shop had SS saws. My personal saw is a PM2000. Working there taught me a few things about the SS saws and allowed a great comparison to my saw. At the school we had several so-called false triggers. We also had several safety related triggers. The fact that a safety trigger happened made the use of these saws invaluable! The false triggers are quite costly to a very tight school budget but obviously worthwhile due to the saved injuries their technology allowed. Please know that we went to extreme measures properly training the kids in how to safely use each and every tool in the shop. We never had a table saw injury.
> 
> I however do not believe I would buy a SS for my own use at home. Why? Because I work with mostly rough sawn lumber which for some unknown reason was the common denominator for every false trigger. I/we suspect it had more to do with moisture than texture though. I also really dislike how the trunion is a magnet for dust buildup. I often had to manually clean out this area from dust buildup on a weekly basis to allow the blade to move to extreme positions (45 plus and/or all the way up/down in blade height). I ve never had to do this on my PM in over 10 years, plus I buy mostly rough sawn lumber.
> 
> ...


I have the JSS and know that it doesn't have the power to do what the higher horsepower saws can do. It was a vast improvement over the old monstrosity that I had before, which had nothing, in terms of a riving knife, fence, dust guard, etc., though. I just don't have the room for a bigger saw (or tables, for that matter). Except for the power, the saw does what I want.


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

Eflanders are you saying that you rip Rough lumber on your table saw?


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## tvrgeek (Nov 19, 2013)

"Except for the power" I have a 1 3/4 horse Ridgid contractor saw. I had all kinds of issues with power when I fell for the super duper high priced combination blades. Really bogged down on rips. With a mere Diablo 24 tooth rip it slips through 3 inch oak without a complaint, and the 60 tooth crosscut never slows down. I have only used by 80 tooth on thin ply and dado only about a 1/4 per pass. My excuse for a 3 HP saw is diminished slightly as it actually does everything I need. Slightly. I can't really justify bigger and heavier ( smoother) but a true riving knife is safer than my assortment of inserts with splitters. I have improved my dust collection and have a few more ideas, so that is not a real factor. But I want one.

But yea, their contractor saw is about 2 grand. Easier to swallow than 4. As it is about $1000 more than competitive contractor saws, that tells you how much their technology should cost. As a good 3 HP cabinets is in the 2K range, their PSC should be 3K! IMHO.

Just a thought. If one sprayed all the trunion with a dry lubricant, might it not build up as much? T9 maybe? Or waxed? Rough surfaces I assume. Or is it a matter of not enough airflow in the right places? I admit, I blow out mine every now and again. Turn on the collector and hit it with my air hose. My saw being a contractor, is diecast aluminum so smoother surface.


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## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

With good dust collection, the sawdust buildup is not an issue for me. I have had my Sawstop PCS for quite a few years and no problems.

The trunions on the Sawstop are plenty strong because they needed to absorb the force of a brake event. Has anyone heard of an issue with the trunions?


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

I also have the JSS which clocks in at $1400, this style is a requirement due to my 16' x 10' shop size. It is not uncommon for me set the saw at the door or take outside for long rips. Anyway I have noticed my habits have changed. I never used my blade guard on my Kobalt JSS. I don't really know why but I just hated it and never deployed it one time. The blade guard on the SS saw is a better design and goes on easy but I suppose it is the duct port on it that got me to start using it. My old saw was my biggest dust generator (especially when I would forget to attach the vacuum hose). But now with top and bottom suction my new one is virtually dust free. So go figure, I pay extra for a saw that can't hurt me and then I start using the blade guard.


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## Knockonit (Nov 5, 2017)

lol, this thread and discussion reminds me of all the weapons forums i'm on the neverending argument of :

9mm versus the veneral .45 acp, we all know the .45acp is the do all round of the world, lol.

some good stuff here, as for saw stop if and when i feel the need to get a new saw, and turn in my unisaw and my new sliding table saw, perhaps sawstop would be it. as for safety, well if you have to have a tool that reminds you every day of not to cut your finger or any apendage off, well, perhaps you should vendor out the cutting of your material. just my opinion, while not solicited, gave it anyway. 
good luck to whom ever gets and uses whatever saw they do, no shop should be without a decent table saw.

rj in az


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## bibideebah (Jan 19, 2021)

> Douglas, some day in the far future…(remember the song: In the Year 2525?), you will be able to ask a question about Sawstop and it won t break down into the same argument/debate/whatever that has went on since the saw was introduced. Anyway, hope some of these posts helped you form an opinion. Best to you on your decision….
> 
> - Fred Hargis


Lordy I hope so


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## bigblockyeti (Sep 9, 2013)

Find yourself a used Unisaw or PM66 as either will last longer than a stopsaw or it's replacement stopsaw. As for safety, don't allow your fingers to touch the blade and use a splitter.


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## Knockonit (Nov 5, 2017)

> Find yourself a used Unisaw or PM66 as either will last longer than a stopsaw or it s replacement stopsaw. As for safety, don t allow your fingers to touch the blade and use a splitter.
> 
> - bigblockyeti


DITTO, i have a 30 year old uni saw, that is absolutely a work horse, and if taken care of as it has, runs like a sewing machine, just purchased for new shop a jet 10'' with sliding table attachment, not sure why, but what the heck, hopefully at the end of my days all apendages are still attached, good luck with what ever you purchase, and remember to pay attention every time all the time when machine on, something i've learned over 5 decades of cutting stuff. 
happy february 
rj in az


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## Holbs (Nov 4, 2012)

Politics and opinions aside…...
I upgraded from a Powermatic 66 and Delta Unisaw to a Sawstop ICS because…of my age. I am no young spring chicken anymore. I know I am making more bonehead mistakes. Could easily see myself reaching across a board and just simply forgetting there is a spinning blade in the path while in the "zone". I bet anyone who has had an accident would say the same thing. I make safety Priority #1 in my shop. Luckily, it has worked out for me as no physical damage.
I could not afford a Sawstop in my younger years. Hence, the use of a Bosch 4100, PM66, Unisaw. Actually still have the Bosch for outdoor MDF cutting or the need to have a table saw outside during a fence project. And still have the Unisaw. They will be my secondary. Primary will be the Sawstop.


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## bibideebah (Jan 19, 2021)

How long has SawStop been around?


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

I think the original saw introduced somewhere lose to 2006. the only thing that makes me think that was I know a fellow who bought one as soon as they came out, and that was about the time.

oops, off a little…just did a search, it was (according to the internet) patented in 2000, and introduced in 2004. Of course, the internet is always correct.


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## RClark (Jun 1, 2012)

Was perusing some old Fine Woodworking mags recently and came across one of those "new tool release" articles about the Sawstop. Magazine was published somewhere around 2005.


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## bigblockyeti (Sep 9, 2013)

> How long has SawStop been around?
> 
> - Douglas!


Long enough that switching to them wouldn't be considered an "upgrade" by anyone experienced with quality machinery!


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## bibideebah (Jan 19, 2021)

Would buying a used old SawStop be a good comprimise?


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

> Long enough that switching to them wouldn t be considered an "upgrade" by anyone experienced with quality machinery!
> 
> - bigblockyeti


Well this explains why it (SS) was an upgrade for me, I came from Kobalt (shaking head)


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

> Would buying a used old SawStop be a good comprimise?
> 
> - Douglas!


 I think the problem with that is there just isn't that many that show up for sale. True enough, every once in a while someone shows up with with a steal, but not very often. An acquaintance of mine bought an ICS for $2300, although he had to drive about 200 miles one way just to see it. But that's fairly rare.


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## MikeZ (Jan 19, 2010)

If you get to the end of your life having frequently used a table saw and never had an accident that the SawStop would have prevented or minimized, you'll be ahead by a couple to a few thousand dollars (not insignificant to most people). Everyone gets to make their own decision about it. After getting into this hobby, I waited some extra time to get my first table saw - a Contractor SawStop. It was a lot of money. In these 10 years or so that I've had it, I had one blade break go off resulting in a small scratch on my thumb that didn't even bleed. It happened so fast that to this day I'm not exactly sure what happened other than I got my hand too close to the blade. I have no way of knowing how serious this accident would have been without the SawStop, but it really doesn't matter. It did what I needed it to do. Having spent the money so long ago it doesn't even phase me today and I'm really glad I have it.


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## tvrgeek (Nov 19, 2013)

Never seen one for sale.

I just don't get the almost religions condemnation of them by some people. Are they best saw ever made? No. Are they a very good saw? Yes. Are they totally safe? No. Are they overpriced? I think so. They are a good product and offer a unique safety feature. No one is making you buy one ( though my wife is strongly in favor) Saw accidents are , well accidents. The only way to use one safely is to unplug it and use it as a work bench. To say, just be careful is well, like jumping out of a perfectly good airplane. Many do so. Have a great thrill. I know one who splattered and one paralyzed. I choose to use the built in safety feature in airplanes: Landing gear.

I still have not heard a fair comparison between an older PM66 and the newer PM2000 as just basic working like a saw. What is the difference? I don't believe the 66 had a riving knife. That required a trunnion redesign which is the PM2000. Same problem with the old Unisaw. It had a splitter, not a riving knife. The difference is how far from the blade the knife is, and I can attest it MATTERS.

I have tracked on this and other forums. Yes, people HAVE sold their PMs and Unisaws for a PCS. I suspect most have made the choice when moving up from a contractor saw as they wanted a bigger smoother saw and chose to pay the premium.


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## WoodAbuser (Dec 10, 2018)

Several years ago, I ran a screw into the palm of my hand. I was treated by a hand surgeon (just patched up, no serious surgery). He told me he was on call the coming weekend, and to come for a follow-up visit the next week. I came for the follow-up, everything was fine.

On my way out, I asked "did you have a busy weekend" ? He replied "I saw TEN table saw accidents!" This is in Fargo, ND (and surrounding area) ! I asked if they were professional or amateur, he said about half and half.

That weekend, anyway, table saw accidents were frequent !

Unfortunately, I don't have a SS yet. Maybe the price will drop after the patents run out ??


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

Why do I get the feeling that when the current patent runs out or another competing technology arrives we will all be here belly aching that the new one is too expensive, may fail or not work and falsely activate. As it is now there will also be better saws out there too.


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