# Dovetails- Hand cut or machine where do you stand?



## woodworker59 (May 16, 2012)

Personally I find therapy in cutting my dovetails by hand, I like to look of them and feel that its a dead give away to people looking at the piece that its hand made and not a production piece. I realize there are new jigs out now that will let you cut fancy hearts, butterflies, etc but they are still machine cut and obviously so. They look nice and all, but I prefer the rugged look of hand cuts. It allows me the option of size and spacing that can show to a perspective buyer that I put serious time and thought into my craft.. so what are your thoughts? Lets hear what others have to say on this, Hand cut or router made?


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## Doss (Mar 14, 2012)

Being an engineer, I have to say that I like the look of precision work. So, naturally I tend to favor router cut or even CNC machine cut. That is not to say that I don't appreciate the work of hand cutting.

There are certain aspects I really find interesting in hand cut joints and one is the skill it takes to make a tight one.

What's even more impressive to me is a blend of the two in question, the precision of a machine cut dovetail (or joint) that was done by hand. When I see levels of craftsmanship like that, I cannot help but be amazed.


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## HillbillyShooter (Feb 15, 2012)

Since I have a Leigh dovetail jig, I use a dovetail jig and I like it. I have no doubt that had our forefathers had power routers and dovetail jigs, they would have used them-it's simply a matter of expediency, efficiency and economy.


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## bondogaposis (Dec 18, 2011)

I've cut them both ways and although my hand cut dovetails are a bit a crude I prefer them over the machine cut. I do find it quite a bit harder to hand cut half blinds so sometimes I'll break out the router. I hope one day to get my dovetails to look real purdy and that is going to take practice, so in the meantime I'll live with less than perfect.


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## JGM0658 (Aug 16, 2011)

By hand of course, no machine will make the variety and look of a well made hand cut dovetail. That is not to see using some machine aids, like a trim router to hog waste on a half blind dovetail is not permitted..


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## rockindavan (Mar 8, 2011)

I feel like hand cut dovetails are one of the few things in woodworking that ties us to our woodworking ancestors. Now days almost every task can be touched with power tools from milling to cutting to sanding. Most of them are more efficient, some hundreds of times more efficient (milling stock). I would like to think that some tasks should remain clear from power tools to respect the art of the craft.


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## jusfine (May 22, 2010)

I have used the PC Omnijig and the Leigh jig for dovetails and both worked quite well, the last being compound dovetails for a cradle with the Leigh. Took a lot longer to figure out than I thought.

Two weeks ago I took a seminar with Rob Cosman and was impressed with the hand cut dovetails he taught.

I think my next project will be finished with hand cut, and to answer your question, I like the look of both!


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## PurpLev (May 30, 2008)

depends on quantity:

a few dovetailed boxes = by hand
20 dovetails drawers = jig


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## jmos (Nov 30, 2011)

I've got a Rockler dovetail jig; used it once and it worked fine. Once I dialed it in it produced a very tight joint. That said, I cut all mine (mostly) by hand anymore just for the challenge. I find it enjoyable, in a frustrating sort of way, to cut them by hand and see how well I can get them to turn out. Although I do often cheat and cut the faces of the tails with a bandsaw so I know those faces are square.


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## SnowyRiver (Nov 14, 2008)

I think hand cut dovetails are quite traditional. But I find that the only people that seem to really notice are other woodworkers. So to save time, I use the Leigh jig.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

I like to hand cut dovetails, but I own a dovetail jig. (I don't like the one I own, but that's another story). I'm with Purplev, a few by hand for sure. If your cutting lots and time (and money) counts, I'd get out the jig.


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## ShipWreck (Feb 16, 2008)

I have done it both ways…...although much much more with jigs. I prefer the look of the minor defects of a handcut dovetail. If I made them in large numbers….......jigs.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Hand cut. Jigs are for box joints ;-)


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## KenFitz (May 21, 2007)

Have an old Craftsman half blind jig for 35 years and it worked just fine for me. Splurged on a PC two years ago for the full cut ability. I really like jigs. Anything that makes the project go easier. I think even the Shakers would use jigs if they were available back in the day.

Hand cut are beautiful and I have seen a number of experts cut them in no time. They work wood every day, all day and I get it. Since I retired I can do the same but still like my jigs.

I do know how and have done some hand cut (just to prove to myself I could) but would only use it for something extremely special and sentimental.

Ken


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## bent (May 9, 2008)

depends on who the project is for, and what they expect(time frame, price, style).


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## Gerry1 (Jul 12, 2009)

I agree with Sharon. That being said, I am just finishing a chest of drawers (9) using a Leigh jig for the first 4, getting spotty results.

I then used the router table with a shop made jig for the pins, transferred the pin tracings to the tail boards, and cut the tails by hand. ( yes, I know, tails before pins?????)

In the grand scheme of things, my favorite time was hand cutting the half blind dovetails in the bottom of the case. Soooo, I guess I prefer doing them by hand.


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## woodworker59 (May 16, 2012)

Seems I have opened quite a box of worms with my question, I have not done a accurate account, but seems to be split pretty close to right down the middle… I would like to address a couple of the things I read. While I would agree that for the sake of time the jig probably works faster(I have never used one) it goes back to my initial thread about it being a production piece. As a one man show here, I really don't look at things in terms of how fast I can get it done. I can understand how having a lot to do will slow things down, I did a chest on chest a couple years ago, 13 drawers in all. It took most of a week to hand-cut all the dovetails just for the drawers not to mention the case corners.
I guess the difference with me is I build them as much for me as for the people who ordered them, I try to put as much of me into every piece as possible. If it takes me an extra day or two to complete so be it. I guess it may be because I don't need to make a living off my work, it just supplements my income. I suppose if tonight's dinner were in the balance I would be hammering out dovetails on a jig in a heartbeat. 
Although I disagree with the notion that if the Shakers had routers and jigs they would have used them.. I really don't believe so. Everything I have read concerning the Shakers tells me otherwise. 
I love the challenge of my craft, and the excitement I feel when a dovetail joint almost sucks itself into place when its cut just right, or the feeling of a mortise and tenon joint that is so sound you know that it will out live whoever buys it. The right angle chair that I have on my project page is a perfect example. Its built using pegged mortise and tenons throughout, the only way that chair is coming apart is with an axe. You can just feel it when you pick it up.
Okay I have gone on long enough, just didn't want to ask a question and then never come back to reply.
thanks to all who have answered so far, I hope that more respond. To me every joint I cut is my signature on that piece, I don't need to burn my name into a piece its everywhere you look.. 
have fun and enjoy your craft.. Papa


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

This reminded me about a friend who wanted to learn to make dovetail joints. I had never done them either. After I learned to make them by hand just like I saw Roy doing it, I saw my friend. I asked if he had learned? He said yes, he got a jig and router and learned to make them ;-))


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## newwoodbutcher (Aug 6, 2010)

I agree with Wayne that woodworkers are the people who appreciate hand cut dovetails. If your clients can't tell the difference, machine dovetails are more profitable. For me, I make them by hand as I don't sell my work and I really appreciate developing and showing off my skills.


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## KenFitz (May 21, 2007)

Hi Papa,

This is a great discussion. I have to disagree with you though re: Shakers. I've done a lot of reading as well on the Shakers and have been to a few of their settlements in New York, Massachusetts and Vermont. One thing I have taken away from all of this is that the Shakers were leaders in inovation. They were the first in the communities to bring in running water and electricity and other labor saving devices.

In Hancock Massachusetts they built a round barn that is entered on three levels accomplished with grading of the land around it. They drive wagons of hay to the upper level dropping the hay in a center shaft to the second level where waiting cows devour it. The lowest level is for what comes out of the cow's so wagons could come in to load up the results and distribute around the farm.

They have an aqueduct that routes water to the enclave from almost a half mile away. This water is used to power a laundry and woodworking shop where water powered washers and water powered table saws are used.
In the main 3 story house they use dumb waiters from the basment kitchen to the upper level to serve food in their large dining rooms. These dumb waiters are the size of large cabinets with many shelves to hold the volume of food that was lifted to the main dining room. The were certainly innovators.

I guess it could never be proven because their enclaves died out in the last century, but my gut tells me the brothers would certainly have modernized thier work shops as new fangled jigs were invented.

Anyway thanks for starting this forum. From what I can see, those who hand cut their dovetails are strong advocates of continuing in that fashion. I applaud their sticktoitiveness (I hope that is a word, I've heard it so many times over the years). Their results are indeed beautiful pieces of work.

Ken


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

I cut them by hand and with jigs. It all depends on what I'm working on at the time. I do enjoy cutting them by hand, however, and it gives me a lot more sense of accomplishment and pride when I do.

helluvawreck
https://woodworkingexpo.wordpress.com


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## Maveric777 (Dec 23, 2009)

I have a nice little Leigh Super Jig sitting on my shelf and have used it from time to time, but honestly I prefer hand cutting mine any day of the week. I just do this as a hobby… As a way to express myself… As a way to create something that hopefully will last longer than I ever will (as corny as that may sound).

In this modern Walmart/microwave society we live in most folks (including myself at times) want things cheap and right now. We get so caught up with being in a hurry we tend to forget the journey of creating something can be just as rewarding as the completion. I don't care to kick things out of my shop as fast as possible… I care more about representing myself, and who I am.

My adopted Dad told me something long ago that has always stuck with me my entire life. Most likely the reason I am so particular (or anal as my lovely bride loves to refer it as) about things I take on… He use to tell me "Son, what ever you do in life has your name on it and represents you. Whether it being as simple as signing your name, the yard you keep, the work you do…. That is who you are."

Maybe I look way to far into this, but to me knowing I hand cut my dovetails represents I actually cared enough to take the extra steps. To make it more a part of me….

Not to mention there is just so much more you can do by hand cutting dovetails than with a machine. Your limits is pretty much your imagination…..

Sorry for rambling….


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## Milo (Apr 24, 2009)

I don't think my hands would let me do an excessive number of hand cut dovetails. I'm having enough trouble with fine motor control these days. You should see how long it takes me to tie a fly! Ack!


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## woodworker59 (May 16, 2012)

Before I get lost in this,,
Ken I can't believe that you could spell sticktoitivness or however you did that,, I sure cant. 
although the Shakers were innovators, I believe for the reasons Maveric777 used they would have stayed with hand cut. They were far to concerned about their reputations as crafstman. 
Ken is that where New England farmers came up with the idea of the honey trough in their farms? I grew up on a dairy farm, all my relatives are or were dairy farmers.. we had a trough just behind and below where the cows tail would hang when they were being milked. Into this trough gravity would propel the honey where it would be pushed along until it dropped into the lower level of the barn to be collected and spread back onto the fields. My Grandfathers barn was built on the three level grading system, hay on top baled( at least as long as I have been alive) my father tells of loose wagon loads when he was young. cows in the middle and honey on the bottom.. 
I agree that its my signature all over the piece and I also agree that I want to build something that will outlive me for many years.. I can't paint like Piccaso and though I write music I am not Elton John, and I may not be Roy Underhill., But my furniture will live for 100 years after I am long dead and seated at the banquet. 
I thank everyone who has contributed to this forum, its been great to read all the responses..I was even up doing it a 4am.. tough when you cant sleep… Seems to be happening more and more these days.. must be getting old..


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## MoPower (Feb 6, 2009)

Hmmm


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## ducky911 (Oct 6, 2010)

I have a 24" akeda jig…i built a blanket chest with it…..came out perfect…pins are small…just finished a hand cut 14 degree blanket chest with the pins how i wanted them…came out perfect with alot of time invested..

So if you got the time (i am retired) i like hand cut


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## woodworker59 (May 16, 2012)

Ducky911 I am retired as well, mostly because they crushed me with a back-=hoe a few years back..but I am just now finishing a 1785 Shaker blanket chest that has hand cuts on all four corners.. 9 per corner.. I don't go for the super small pins, mine are average I guess… they are 1/2" on top and 1/4" on bottom.. any smaller than that and they just get to fussy for me.. 
Scot.. like the saying, but its not my horse that's high its the saddle, horse is just a Shetland pony.. lol


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*woodworker59* They really did stack hay long without bales. I've done it and driven the horses pulling the load.

I'm sure I would yield on my hand cut snobbishness if I were doing production work ;-)


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## DaveFulghum (Jun 5, 2012)

I adore the zen and craftsmanship of hand cut dovetails. If a project is small enough, and I have the time, I love doing them by hand.

But.. in my current situation where I have the need to produce a large number of pieces (with drawers) and I need them cut with precision and rapididty…... You can have my dovetail jig and routers when you can pry them from my cold dead fingers.


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## woodworker59 (May 16, 2012)

I am sure that if I were in the situation of having to make my living at this, I would go for the jig method to improve quantity without losing quality, but as this is supplemental income for me, I choose to take my time and do what I love. It really is a form of therapy for me to cut them by hand.. I really look forward to a few hours spent cutting dovetails. Have cut over 50 on the blanket chest that I am working on now. 
I have also cut hay by hand with a sythe and stacked it onto wagons and then forked it into the hay loft, on a small farm though. We had a small farm when I was growing up, couple milkers, couple beefs, pigs, chickens, rabbits.. but most of my relatives were big time milkers and had the bayling machines then.. we were so small we just cut 4 acres for our own by hand..
ahh for the good old days.. 
I am pleased to see that my question brought out so many interested parties.. do what feels right to you and you will never go wrong.. its all about your craft and how you do it.. just enjoy..


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## Everett1 (Jun 18, 2011)

Agree with PurpLev

Even though i'm a wussy pants, and have only dont hand cut dovetails in practice, since I got a Leigh 24" jig on craigs list for 80 buckaroos, i was psyched to use it.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

WW59, I tell people I retired at 19. they ask how did i do it. I tell them I left the farm, got a good job with 40 hour, 5 day weeks ;-) No more 4 AM starts and 10 Pm finishes 6 days a week and only working 8 to 10 on Sunday ;-(


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## NiteWalker (May 7, 2011)

It's a matter of preference.
If it's therapeutic for you, by all means, hand chop away.

Take it as you will, but I'll be buried with one of my routers. ;-)


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

TopamaxSurvivor, that's my story to the word. I planned to be a farmer all through high school. Got a "temporary" job coming out. *What*, no work on saturday *AND* Sunday!!. I was hooked.


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## woodworker59 (May 16, 2012)

Like I said all my relatives are or were most are gone now big time farmers milking 200 head or so with the old single cow carry to each one machine. When I was 9 or 10 my dad called me into the garage one day to inform me that I was old enough to take care of some animals now. He worked for the Department of Transportation for the State. From then on we had a farm, or should I say I had a farm and every year as I got older it got bigger.. 4:30 every morning from then until I bailed out and went into the service. My kid brother still holds a grudge nearly 40 years later because I left him holding the bag. 
Enough about that,, You router people are pretty hard core, I love my chisels and such, but there is no need to drop one in the box with me when I go.. if you want to take a router with you be my guest but man I think that there has to be something else I would rather have.. 
I have been tempted to try one of those jigs, just an old stick in the mud I guess. plus it makes it hard to hear the game with the router running in my ear.. hope everyone has a great day, looking forward to reading more of your great responses… I have a blanket chest to stain.. later..Papa


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## Gene01 (Jan 5, 2009)

I guess one is never too old to learn a new trick or two. However, does one wish to invest the time and effort and endure the frustrations inherent in the learning process? At my age, I don't.
While I greatly admire hand work of any kind, woodwork especially and dovetails most certainly, I'll stick with my router cuts. 
Patience is not my strong suit.


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## funchuck (Jan 11, 2010)

I converted to hand tools about 1 year ago, but I used power tools for about 7 years (probably more). So I have cut them both ways. I greatly prefer hand cut dovetails.

My wife has no interest in my woodworking and even buys furniture at IKEA sometimes! But, when she saw me hand cutting dovetails, she suddenly showed more appreciation for my work. She even had me show some of her friends (who didn't really care!).


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## woodworker59 (May 16, 2012)

Gene Howe- I can understand the patience factor, when I was first learning to cut dovetails, I must have cut a couple hundred of them or more.. I would cut a set of pins and tails, then cut the board straight and do it all over again and again and again. 
The thing is, once I cut a few sets that fit really sweet, I was hooked. there is just something about when a really nice tight set of pins and tails come together that just make everything right in the world if only for a couple mins.. 
Funchuck- its amazing how quality hand work will appeal to even those that have no interest in what we are doing. It just cries out to everyone, I am built with pride and integrity. How great does that feel when people notice the care and attention we put into something.. great job keep up the hand work.. Papa


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## pintodeluxe (Sep 12, 2010)

Jig and router. It is hard to beat the speed and accuracy of machine cut dovetails.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

They aren't too much of a hassle to hand-cut in 1/2 drawer
sides, but the carcase dovetails in 1" parts are trickier in my 
opinion… or at least take considerable care in getting
the bottoms flat with chisels.

I have jigs to cut them by machine now but for years and
years I didn't. I never used them in work for clients… I
just made them occasionally for my own stuff.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

By hand. Don't have a jig or the router to use the bit (that I also don't have). Allmy builds (meager tho they are) are personal to date, not for sale, so I do what I want to, including choice of joinery.


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## davidmicraig (Nov 21, 2009)

As I grow in the area of woodworking, I find myself attempting more hand tool work. I don't have any angst against power tools nor intention of dumping them. I do, however, try to make sure that jigs and items of that nature are used for convenience and accuracy, rather than an alternative because I do not know how to do something by hand. Just a personal thing with me, I want to be able to do things both ways and keep those options open.

Nice thread,

David


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## Dustmite97 (Aug 1, 2009)

I use a router. I have a half-blind dovetail jig. A pain to set up but it makes easy work of joinery. I also love the look of hand cut dovetails, I need to try them sometime.


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## Oldtool (May 27, 2012)

Well, if you are keeping a tally, put me in the hand-cut column. I guess it's more for the quiet atmosphere, the minimal dust, and the shorter set up time. Also, hand cutting allows me to try varied spacing, hounds tooth, etc.
I have two routers, seldom take them off the shelf. In fact, the newer one, about 2 years old, was only used once, and I didn't like the results. (not used to cut tails though, making molding.)
Besides, a router would prevent me from hearing my Jimmy Hendrix CDs.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

One of the fascinating things about hand tools and dovetails was when Roy and Norm were in the same hour on the local PBS station. Roy would be done with lots of things by the time Norm got set up, but if one was doing 10 drawers, well, i think Norm would pass him ;-)


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## paratrooper34 (Apr 27, 2010)

I do them by hand. I do not own a router or any other machine to accomplish dovetail joinery. Almost all of my work is now by hand. But I absolutely agree with some others, if I depended on woodworking to put food on the table, I dang sure would be a powered dovetail joiner.


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## pmayer (Jan 3, 2010)

I cut them by hand because I enjoy it.


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Hand cut using a bandsaw.


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## woodworker59 (May 16, 2012)

Oldtool, I like your style, only with me its the Red Sox games… I hate to miss something because I have a router running in my ear… 
Loren, while I agree that cutting dovetails in thicker stock is more hassle, I have just finished a blanket chest with 13/16" case sides and cut 9 dovetails per corner.. Will be posting some pics as soon as its finished.. a good sharp chisel will cut through an inch just fine..
I find that the fussyness required to do sharp tight half blind dovetails is or can be quite frustrating.. but still fun and exciting at the same time..
thanks to all who have answered, seems to be a hot button topic.. love to real all the replies.. 
its not about which is best, its about which YOU like, and how you like to work.. there is no wrong way to do it if they are tight and right.. its all good…Papa


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

To be sure it can be done and perhaps I overstated the problem - 
it's no big deal to cut any sort of through dovetail if you have the
time to do it, a good tight-kerfed saw and the equipment to
make your chisels shaving-sharp. Fine mortise and tenon joints
with tight shoulders by hand are finicky to do certainly - the cheeks
are forgiving but the shoulders are not.

When you get tired or in too much hurry or your tools are not
sharp enough or a combination of these factors contributes
to frustration and declining quality of results. Best to cut 
joints when you are fresh and clear-headed in my opinion.


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## Kelby (Oct 19, 2011)

I enjoy cutting them by hand, although I'm far from perfect at it. I don't enjoy the router/jig, but it works well and efficiently. Sometimes good and efficient is more important than enjoyment. Sometimes not.


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## woodworker59 (May 16, 2012)

thanks to everybody who replied to my question.. looking forward to having more discussion with my fellow woodworkers.. stay sharp and stay safe.. Papa


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## Bosun (Aug 17, 2016)

Here is a furniture maker making dovetail joints by hand and without marking the timber. Yes, he does this by eye. See him tap the pieces together at 1.24.


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## mike02130 (Jul 23, 2016)

Hand cut dovetails with small pins and a scribe line can't be beat. A sign of signature quality. If I'm making cabinets I'll farm the job out. If using modern sliders for drawers, I don't really see much need for it. Using a router one is a technician, cut by hand one is a craftsman.


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

> Here is a furniture maker making dovetail joints by hand and without marking the timber. Yes, he does this by eye. See him tap the pieces together at 1.24.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I like it!

Used to use a jig now only by hand because I - LIKE - WW'ing!!


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## RichardHillius (Oct 19, 2013)

It takes a fairly long time to setup my dovetail jig and get it dialed in just right but once it's going I can cut dovetails very quickly. Handout dovetails are faster to cut a few but if you are doing a kitchen's worth than it's worth setting up the jig.


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## Oldtool (May 27, 2012)

Here is a furniture maker making dovetail joints by hand and without marking the timber. Yes, he does this by eye. See him tap the pieces together at 1.24.





-Bosun, Tasmania, http://MarineDirectory.net

Not so, he does have layout lines. You can't see the side of the board facing him either during the first cuts or when flipped. But, you can see the layout lines when he assembles the sides, as evidenced in this screen shot:


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## dbhost (Jul 20, 2009)

If you have mastered the art of hand cutting dovetails, and you have the time to do them, go for it. It's not for me though.

I have several router jigs for doing dovetails. I have the Harbor Freight half blind dovetail machine, as well as the MLCS Pins & Tails through dovetail jigs. I like using them as it speeds up my work, and makes it actually accurate.

I have tried to learn to master hand cut dovetails and I just can't get it. By the same token, I also machine cut my mortises, and use power saws, power drills, etc… And even though there are motors and jigs involved, there is still skill, and human touch involved. It's not like there's none of me in these things… The machines are there to help with the craftsman, not be the craftsman.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> One of the fascinating things about hand tools and dovetails was when Roy and Norm were in the same hour on the local PBS station. Roy would be done with lots of things by the time Norm got set up, but if one was doing 10 drawers, well, i think Norm would pass him ;-)
> 
> - TopamaxSurvivor


Roy was always huffing a puffing and out of breath. I really just want a relaxing hobby and prefer to get my exercise in other ways,..............................................................................................................

Like Doss (in post 1) I have to say that I like the look of precision work. So, naturally I tend to favor router cut or even CNC machine cut. Just like wood workers can tell a miles away a drawer has machine cut dovetails you can see from a mile away if they are hand cut.

That being said I much prefer box joints to dovetails anyway.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

> One of the fascinating things about hand tools and dovetails was when Roy and Norm were in the same hour on the local PBS station. Roy would be done with lots of things by the time Norm got set up, but if one was doing 10 drawers, well, i think Norm would pass him ;-)
> 
> - TopamaxSurvivor
> Roy was always huffing a puffing and out of breath. I really just want a relaxing hobby and prefer to get my exercise in other ways,..............................................................................................................
> ...


Roy usually had a little blood on the project or the bench or the floor or ;-)


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## langski93 (Dec 31, 2008)

Great thread. I started by trying to hand cut and time and again the result was crappy dovetails. I switched to a Leigh Jig, and despite repeated attempts I still came out with crappy results along with long set up and trial and error. I sold the jig and a router to a fellow jock at a really good price and went back to hand cut. One day a switch went off and my hand cut dovetails started to improve or at least they didn't look like I cut them in the dark. I continue to listen to the Red Sox like Woodworker59 and cut by hand.

I bet the Canterbury Shakers were using jigs and fixtures for hand operations and would have been very comfortable integrating power tools into the woodworking mix as they had in other areas. In fact, in *The Spiritual Traveler: Boston and New England : a Guide to Sacred Sites* They credit two Shaker brothers from Harvard MA with inventing the circular saw. That was a new one on me.

I have seen some of their innovations at Canterbury, NH which include for example, commercial washing machines. Models that the community used were improved upon over the years and sold outside of the community.

"Shakers had built wash-mills of different types during the early part of the nineteenth century, but in 1858 they took what they had learned about doing wash with mechanical power to the marketplace by engineering, building, and patenting an improvement in washing machines. Although the Shakers received a patent for an "Improved Washing Machine" on January 26, 1858, they had been manufacturing and selling the machine prior to that and mentioned the success of the machine in the patent description." They were particularly adepts at selling the machines to commercial operators like hotels.

Canterbury was a very prosperous community and apparently very much part of the outside world. They owned mechanized tractors and automobiles among other "high tech" items. My regret was never having seen the 240' barn that burned in 1973..


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## DLK (Nov 26, 2014)

I'm in favor of anything that produces little or no dust and noise.

I just did my first hand cut dovetail project. Material was inch thick ash and the days were hot and humid. Dovetails came out almost perfect. I followed the Paul Sellers method. I was born with lots of patience. And although my arm and elbow still are a bit sore I am eager to do more. They will be easier the next time.

I don't understand why you would want to cut dovetails by machine when finger joints would be even more efficient to cut and would be just as strong (because of modern glue).


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> I m in favor of anything that produces little or no dust and noise.
> 
> I just did my first hand cut dovetail project. Material was inch thick ash and the days were hot and humid. Dovetails came out almost perfect. I followed the Paul Sellers method. I was born with lots of patience. And although my arm and elbow still are a bit sore I am eager to do more. They will be easier the next time.
> 
> ...


Some people don't like chocolate ice cream and some do.

It human nature not to understand what others do when it's differs from what you do.

Analogy: Some people will vote Hillary and some won't.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

> I think hand cut dovetails are quite traditional. But I find that the only people that seem to really notice are other woodworkers. So to save time, I use the Leigh jig.
> - SnowyRiver





> ...Roy was always huffing a puffing and out of breath. I really just want a relaxing hobby and prefer to get my exercise in other ways,..............................................................................................................
> .............That being said I much prefer box joints to dovetails anyway.
> - AlaskaGuy


I took the effort to try hand-cutting dovetails on a pine project. Left the panels long because I knew I was going to make mistakes… I did, but eventually accomplished the task.

That being said, I bought the Incra Box Cutting System and a 1/4"-3/8" Freud Box Cutting Blade. Box joints are MUCH easier, and THAT has lowered my stress levels as well… ;-)

As far as making drawers and such, I prefer a dado tongue and rabbet joint:









HOWEVER, I am considering buying a dovetail jig for the heck of it, only because I recently got a Grizzly 10% OFF coupon by email… Hmm…


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## RonAylor1760 (Aug 17, 2016)

As they say …whatever helps your aquatic vessel maintain buoyancy! Now as for me … have to go with to hand tools. Nothing beats the look of hand-cut dovetails. I actually like a few imperfections thrown in too … adds character!


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

There is no mistaking the narrow pins on fine furniture. That's what I want and do. If I had 20 drawers I would 100% buy a jig.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

> HOWEVER, I am considering buying a dovetail jig for the heck of it, only because I recently got a Grizzly 10% OFF coupon by email… Hmm…
> 
> - HorizontalMike


That proves it, coupons work ;-)

I'm with Roy, tail first.


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## KelleyCrafts (May 17, 2016)

> As they say …whatever helps your aquatic vessel maintain buoyancy! Now as for me … have to go with to hand tools. Nothing beats the look of hand-cut dovetails. I actually like a few imperfections thrown in too … adds character!
> 
> - Ron Aylor


I don't have to "throw in" imperfections when I hand cut dovetails. Mine come included. I think you're doing it wrong.


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Once I figured out the best way for me to make dovetails, I do them all of the time. Hand cut and chisel. One of the the things that taught me the most was fixing a very old drawer that was hand cut and seeing what this person did. It opened my eyes.

I will do other joints, like the lock mortise joint for a seriously heavy duty joint but for different reasons. The dovetail, in my view, is one of the best and easiest.


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## crmitchell (Jan 13, 2013)

I have both the Porter Cable and a very old Leigh jig. Over the last year I have migrated to hand cut dovetails and I really enjoy doing them. I'm finally getting to the point that they look good, and I probably won't be going back. The tool cabinet I recently posted was the watershed project ( http://lumberjocks.com/projects/260962 ) that pushed me over the edge. I have learned better layout and upgraded my chisel collection, both of which helped.

My first efforts at hand cut half blinds was on http://lumberjocks.com/projects/200626 . They are a pain but the result is worth it.

BTW, I recently acquired a Craftsman jig that I have no need for and am willing ot part with it for a very reasonable price. Note that it is an 16" jig.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

I have a leigh jig

If i were doing a one-off drawer for a amall box i would hand cut with japanese saw

If i have more than one drawer. The jig wins


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

QUESTION (s): 

Can the INCRA I-BOX Jig for Box Joints actually be used with a dovetail bit to cut dovetails?
Has anyone tried this?
Any tips on the "pin" placement/fit?


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## derekcohen (Jul 15, 2007)

Jigs are limiting. Full stop. When your work progresses beyond simple boxes, and basic drawers .. when you move into higher end drawers with thin sides, slips for drawer bottoms, and bow drawer fronts (which then create compound angled dovetails) .. then you really need to do it by hand.

Even so, basic drawers can be done very quickly by hand. They also look so much nicer. You can design the spacing and look to suit your project.

The fact is that swing dovetails by hand is not rocket science. It does not require heaps of practice, and super human coordinations. It just requires a "go for it" attitude. If I can do it, then you can to. I'm just another weekend warrior.

Example: recent project .. bow front drawers in curved cabinet …










Try and do that with a jig! 

12 drawers for a set of campaign chests ..










Regards from Perth

Derek


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## DLK (Nov 26, 2014)

Derek: What is a swing dovetail?


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## derekcohen (Jul 15, 2007)

That lost an "a" .... should read "sawing" 

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

Derek

What saw do you use?


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

A dovetail saw


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

I use a bow saw. For little ones I use a dozuki.

I haven't cut that many, they're seldom called for.

It's a good skill to learn though, esp the chisel
work and it will make you feel a lot more confident
about joinery in general to do a couple of things
with hand cut dovetails successfully.

I made a bunch of pine 20-CD boxes when I was
learning.

Derek is spot-on philosophically.


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## derekcohen (Jul 15, 2007)

> Derek
> 
> What saw do you use?
> 
> - AlaskaGuy


Yeah, dovetail saw 

I have several, some from new such as Gramercy, LN, IT, LV, and some I made or restored. I love these saws (joinery is the best part of building furniture). They all work. Success lies in your attitude, not in the tool. Still, a nice tool does make the journey more pleasant.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## jwmalone (Jun 23, 2016)

Well today I cut my first complete box with hand cut dovetails. Not to bad, but no pics. Maybe the 3rd or 4th one then ill post. Loved every minute of it, I was pissed when I started, happy as a lark after a couple tails got cut.


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## SCDevil00 (Sep 9, 2016)

I prefer to use a router and the Rockler Dovetail jig. Great results and it isn't as time-consuming as hand cutting. Not that I am against hand cut dovetails, rather it isn't my cup of joe.


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

SCD - and this is a very good thing. What works for you makes your work unique to you as what works for me …

Many ways to do the same thing


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