# Joining After The Fact



## spaine (Nov 19, 2012)

I did it again. I started a project without 100% planning it through. Basically, I went to make a built-in Entertainment Center. As shown in the attached picture. The issue I am having is, that the sides of the top portion are already attached to the walls. However, I still need to attach the face. I know that I should have attached the face using dowels or biscuits before attaching the top piece to the walls. It would also be easy enough for me to a finish nail it through the face, but I was really looking for another alternative.

Any help on this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!


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## HickWillis (Aug 5, 2016)

I assume you're going to stain the face frame the same color as the rest of the cabinet? If so, just use finish nails. The hole is so small you won't even see it. You could also put a little bit of matching wood putty over the hole if you're really concerned about it (or a bit of sawdust/glue then stain).


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## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

You could rabbet the face frame and glue it. I'd just glue it with a few finish nails to hold it in place. Actually, now that I look at it, I don't see any way around having nails in it because there doesn't appear to be any way to clamp the frame on for glue to set.


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## verdesardog (Apr 2, 2011)

You could use pocket screws but it might be difficult to hold the jig steady since you can't clamp it


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## Chris208 (Mar 8, 2012)

Can you just detach the top and do it right?


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## JBrow (Nov 18, 2015)

spaine,

An alternative to finish nails through the face frame would be to build the face frame with integrated cleats. The cleats, glued to the backside of the face frame, would set on the sides, lower face of the shelf, and lower side of the top of the cabinet. Screws or brads through the cleats into the sides and top would hold the face frame in place.

I would think that cleats projecting into the cabinet by about ¾" would be sufficient to offer attaching points. If the cleats are thin, perhaps 3/8" the face frame could extend beyond the sides, shelf, and top (to the inside of the cabinet) by as little at ¾". If the cleats are finished to match the finish inside the cabinet, they would not be very noticeable.

My approach would be to build the face frame ensuring that the stiles and rails overhand the inside of the cabinet by at least ¾". The face frame could then be held in place and the location if the sides, top, and shelf of the built-in marked on the inside of the face frame. A 3/8" groove could be routed into the backside (inside) of the face frame, using the reference marks, to receive the cleats. The cleats could be pre-drilled for mounting screws (unless brads are used) and glued into the grooves in the face frame. A dry fit to the built in cabinet before gluing the cleats in place would ensure a perfect fit.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Like Willis said, just use finish nails. After that, buy a jar of wax close to the color of your wood and one white and one black jar. With these three, you can mix the dark with white to lighten it or black to darken it.

I've done this on light wood on bookshelves and, by playing with the mix as I moved down [or up], even I had trouble finding the holes.

If you don't like a mix for a hole you just filled, just take another stab at it.

When done, toss on your finish of choice.



> I assume you re going to stain the face frame the same color as the rest of the cabinet? If so, just use finish nails. The hole is so small you won t even see it. You could also put a little bit of matching wood putty over the hole if you re really concerned about it (or a bit of sawdust/glue then stain).
> 
> - HickWillis


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## pmayer (Jan 3, 2010)

+1 finish nails. Kelly has a good recipe for you to hide the nails. This won't bother anyone's serenity.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

I would nail and fill but I understand why you might
want to try something a little more elegant.

You can drill evenly spaced counterbore holes for
screws and get a tapered plug cutter to make 
plugs in the same or contrasting wood. You can
use raised square plugs too for a craftsman-style
look.

Another solution, kind of a pain to do, but invisble,
is mod-eze fasteners.

You can also get metal biscuits with two mating parts
that slide together and hold it tight. There's also 
some plastic variants on this idea available.


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## Carloz (Oct 12, 2016)

My vote for blind dowels. Doweling centers from HF for $4 will help you a lot.


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## pintodeluxe (Sep 12, 2010)

If it were before the install, I would've used biscuits and glue to attach the face frame.

Now, I would use an 18 gauge brad nailer. Mix Color Putty to match, and fill the holes (after stain and topcoat) Then take a Q-tip and roll a little topcoat over the putty spot. Use the same topcoat as your project (lacquer, poly etc).
Top coating the putty holes keeps them from drying out and lightening in color.


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## Carloz (Oct 12, 2016)

Cannot believe my eyes. Out of all replies, Carloz excluded, only one is not suggesting to use *nails* in furniture !!!!
Is this a framing forum ?


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

Two steps forward one step back - story of my life…

There is no substitute for doing it right. (Notice I didn't say "the first time".)

How hard could it be to unattach this from the wall, make it right and then reinstall?

Short of that, Carloz is the man with the dowels!


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## bilyo (May 20, 2015)

Make your entire face frame to size. Set it in place with glue. Fasten in place using chair braces on the back (interior) side:
http://www.stanleyhardware.com/type/chair-braces-braces
Small wood blocks would also work the same way. Some or all of the chair braces can be preinstalled to either the face frame or side panels to make installation easier. I think that the addition of biscuits would help hold everything in alignment while installing the chair braces. The braces could be removed after the glue dries; or not.

Another idea:
Build your face frame and cut biscuit slots in both face frame and cabinet. Mark location of biscuit slots in cabinet. Glue biscuits into face frame only and let dry. When dry, glue and install face frame. Drive a small brad through side panel and biscuit where marked to hold the whole assembly together until glue is dry.


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

No offense. If I wouldn't call it fine furniture. Glue and nail it just enough to hold it. Or just nail it.


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## Carloz (Oct 12, 2016)

> No offense. If I wouldn t call it fine furniture. Glue and nail it just enough to hold it. Or just nail it.
> 
> - TheFridge


Looks more like arrogance than offence. The cabinet looks nice.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

I might, also, say it's not fine furniture for the reason it's built in and I consider furniture as something which can be moved. Generally, the two have to be built completely different ways.

Per a customer's requests (no amount of explanation and coaxing would change his mind), I built a solid oak, ceiling hung, kitchen cabinet. They like it so much they used it as a buffet, instead.

I built the thing with the idea it had to hold a its own weight, couple hundred pounds and suspend from the ceiling, rather than be pushed or drug around a floor and carried across the seas and back (military).


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## Cooler (Feb 3, 2016)

> My vote for blind dowels. Doweling centers from HF for $4 will help you a lot.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was going to suggest that but scrolled down to see if anyone beat me to it.

He should drill the top piece of the face frame and insert and glue to the cabinet only. Then he can drill and use the centers to locate the additional positions. The alternative is to buy about 20 centers.

This will be quite strong and is not difficult to do. A bushing to assure that the holes are drilled square might be helpful.


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

Put some nails into the cabinet, cut off the heads, glue the face, hammer the frame into the nails using a block so you don't mar the finish.

Alternatively, I think you could glue the cabinet and tape the frame in place until the glue dries and it would be just fine.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

http://www.mod-eez.com/Dowels.htm - doesn't
require clamping to squeeze doweled joints
shut. I would not use glued dowels in any 
application where I could not get a clamp
on to force the joint tight if necessary.


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## bilyo (May 20, 2015)

> No offense. If I wouldn t call it fine furniture. Glue and nail it just enough to hold it. Or just nail it.
> 
> - TheFridge


Offense intended or not, that comes across as rude and it doesn't matter. It is a fine looking piece and it is totally up to the builder to do as he wishes. All of the above solutions are valid including nails. His choice.


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## Carloz (Oct 12, 2016)

> http://www.mod-eez.com/Dowels.htm - doesn t
> require clamping to squeeze doweled joints
> shut. I would not use glued dowels in any
> application where I could not get a clamp
> ...


You mean you cannot prop the faceframe with a ladder/4×4/refrigerator/ to the frame ?


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## Carloz (Oct 12, 2016)

> I might, also, say it s not fine furniture for the reason it s built in and I consider furniture as something which can be moved.
> - Kelly


Brilliant! Now I know how to make fine furniture! Just make is movable ! And all of you here who though they made fine job with those elaborate kitchen cabinets think again, It is just a framing work with pieces of plywood snapped on.


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

> No offense. If I wouldn t call it fine furniture. Glue and nail it just enough to hold it. Or just nail it.
> 
> - TheFridge
> 
> ...





> I might, also, say it s not fine furniture for the reason it s built in and I consider furniture as something which can be moved.
> - Kelly
> 
> Brilliant! Now I know how to make fine furniture! Just make is movable ! And all of you here who though they made fine job with those elaborate kitchen cabinets think again, It is just a framing work with pieces of plywood snapped on.
> ...


Ladies. Ladies. I know it's probably your times of the month but some people have these things called opinions. You can take em or you can leave em.


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

> Ladies. Ladies. I know it s probably your times of the month but some people have these things called opinions. You can take em or you can leave em.
> - TheFridge


LOL, my opinions seem to bother a lot of people….go figure…


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Carlos, you erred in assigning my statements meaning and intent nowhere stated. In fact, you erred ignoring that I clarified the reason for my statement in it.

The built-ins are nice. In light of the inclination of some to presume negative intent, it may be I should have said so much.

This site was built for discussion and to share information. That, of course, is why the initial post showed up here to begin with, and the basis for my statement. If someone has something to input that would correct me on the matter, well, that's why I come here too - for information. Of course, if someone builds a beautiful granite top hall table and wants to call it a Ford Streamliner, they could, but we might scratch our heads or presume the wrong picture was posted and that it was done on the wrong site.

The built-in isn't intended to be moved, but furniture, to the best of my knowledge, is designed and intended to be. Were it otherwise, I just built a kitchen full of furniture most would call cabinets.

There are thousands of stairs that are nothing short of remarkable, but I and others wouldn't call those fine furniture either. However, we might go on about the remarkable craftsmanship, and most wouldn't think us being negative if we challenged a claim they are fine furniture.



> I might, also, say it s not fine furniture for the reason it s built in and I consider furniture as something which can be moved.
> - Kelly
> 
> Brilliant! Now I know how to make fine furniture! Just make is movable ! And all of you here who though they made fine job with those elaborate kitchen cabinets think again, It is just a framing work with pieces of plywood snapped on.
> ...


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## bilyo (May 20, 2015)

The original post said:



> It would also be easy enough for me to a finish nail it through the face, but I was really looking for another alternative.


How anyone defines "fine furniture" is immaterial to the question. How about we just try to give the poster the alternatives he asks for?


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

It would be awesome if they nailed it in the end


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Boy, that would cut about fifty percent of the posts on this site down to half, and delete a lot of good info. Meanwhile, I just initiated my solution and selected the "unwatch" mode.



> How anyone defines "fine furniture" is immaterial to the question. How about we just try to give the poster the alternatives he asks for?
> 
> - bilyo


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## spaine (Nov 19, 2012)

Thanks for all the responses. I am just now finally getting back to the project today. I can hardly wait for the day I can retire and actually work on projects full time. Hmmm…. that sounds like a job.


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