# Rubbing out a finish to high gloss



## Purrmaster (Sep 1, 2012)

I've been trying for a year now achieve a mirror like, high gloss shine on a finish. The finishes I'm primarily talking about are lacquer and shellac. I've read these finishes rub out best. The highest sheen I can get to is a semi-gloss. Usually more like matte. It's driving me nuts because I see all these pictures of super gloss, mirror like finishes and I can't seem to get to it.

I've tried the following (it's a bit of a list:

Pumice and rottenstone. During french polishing with shellac. Also with a felt block. I've tried mineral oil and paraffin oil with rottenstone/pumice.

Sanding through the grits from 220 up to 2,500 with conventional wet/dry sandpaper. I've done it dry, with water as the lubricant, mineral oil as lubricant, and mineral spirits as lubricant. I've even got a piece of 3,000 grit "paper" (3M Trizact).

I've tried Micro Mesh up to the highest possible grit (12,000) using the lubricants listed above. I've tried 3M microfinishing film as well as 3M polishing papers (both up to 1 micron). I didn't skip any grits.

I've tried Meguiar's Swirl Remover 2.0, Meguiar's Show Car Glaze, Turtle Wax polishing compound, Turtle Wax rubbing compound, Meguiar's ScatchX and several brands of wax.

And probably a few other things I can't remember at the moment.

What the hell am I doing wrong? I'd say I have to rub with even finer abrasives but I don't think there is anything finer out there.

As I said the finishes I'm primarily trying to rub out are nitrocellulose lacquer (brushing lacquer, I don't have spray equipment) and shellac. Both dewaxed and waxed shellac. But I'd like to be able to accomplish the same task using finishes like polyurethane, water base, and other varnishes. Basically any film building finish.

Thanks.


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## needshave (Jan 13, 2013)

I would never use the wax you are using to get a good quality luster/finish. Once sanded to my highest grit I then apply several coats of Johnson's paste wax. Put it on light, let it start to haze then buff it off. It's a good quality product and intended for this application. I would not use automotive wax on the finish. You can buy Johnson's wax at Lowe's for $4.95.


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## ClintSearl (Dec 8, 2011)

For lacquer or poly:
Wet sand to 600 with soapy water to level the surface
Rub out with automotive rubbing compound
Followed by automotive polishing compound


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## Purrmaster (Sep 1, 2012)

I use wax as a final topcoating in order to protect the finish. I use Minwax paste wax and Johnson's paste wax, not automotive wax. I should have been clearer.

Precisely what automotive rubbing and polishing compounds should I use? As I said, I've used several already and they didn't work.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

The methods you have listed should give the result you are looking for. Are you starting with a perfectly smooth finish? If you are working with an open grained wood like walnut, you need to use a grain filler of some kind.

You really need a significant buildup of finish to be able to rub it out to a high gloss. Have you tried using additional coats before sanding and rubbing?


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## Purrmaster (Sep 1, 2012)

I get a smooth finish by starting in the lower grits. With sandpaper I usually go like this: 220-320-400-600-800-1,000-1,5000-2,000-2,500.

Typically by the time I hit 400 grit the finish is smoothed and leveled out. When I'm done I have a finish that feels perfectly smooth to the touch but doesn't look it.

The woods I've tried this on so far have been woods like cedar and madrone. I haven't tried a high gloss finish on oak and the like yet. If I do I intend to use Aqua Coat grain filler. I have some on hand.

If the procedure is correct than I must be screwing it up somehow.

I try to put a fairly thick film on there. But I've read that if you put it on too thick the film may crack. So I try to strike a balance.


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## shipwright (Sep 27, 2010)

Once you have your pore filling done with a tiny amount of pumice and alcohol with a few drops of shellac, finishing in French polish should involve no abrasives…. only shellac, alcohol and a very small amount of mineral oil.
The techniques vary with the practitioners but the results should be mirror-like with just the polish, no waxing necessary.
I don't use the other materials so I won't comment on them.


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## Iguana (Jun 22, 2011)

First, shellac won't polish using abrasives all that well. It doesn't get hard enough, and with not much friction, it will heat and melt a bit. As shipwright says - us shellac, alcohol and mineral, using a pad.

For poly/lacquer and other hard film finishes, you can use abrasives. You first need to let them cure fully. In the case of poly, that could be up to a month. Lacquer can be done sooner.

Once it is cured, Clint S has it right. Although personally, I wet sand to 1500 or 2000. That's probably overkill, but it works for me.

And when he says "automotive rubbing compound/automotive polishing compound", that's not the stuff you find on the shelf in the automotive section at Walmart. Its the stuff autobody guys use to polish out car finishes. You'll probably have to go to an autobody supply shop (maybe something like a Pep Boys) to find it. 3M makes a line which I've used to good effect. Instrument makers do this all the time, so you might want to check on their forums for specific brand recommendations and where to obtain.

Make sure you don't contaminate your buffing pads as you work up through compounds. Use a separate buffing pad for each compound, make sure that you isolate where you set each down, and clean your piece after each compound.


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## Airframer (Jan 19, 2013)

Yep, cure time with the Nitro and the Poly is the key. The methods you described is exactly how I refinish guitars but I usually let the clear cure for over a month (I have had some take longer than that) if it still smells like paint it ain't cured yet just let it sit.

Lacquer and Poly cure from the outside in so if you try to shine an uncured Lacquer or Poly all you are doing is exposing the uncured portion under the skin that has developed and it is just too soft to shine up to a mirror finish. Follow the rule of 3 with those finishes. 3 light coats, no more than 3 a day, wait 3 days before applying more and then 3 weeks per set of 3 for cure is how I go about it. Patience is the key.


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## Purrmaster (Sep 1, 2012)

Thank you for the replies. Please, keep them coming.

The woods I've used french polishing on so far aren't porous. I have used the alcohol/pumice/rottenstone method anyways but the pores didn't need filling. I did it mostly for the sake of smoothing out the finish.

I've also tried french polishing without using any sandpaper at all. The sheen is still too low. It's not mirror like. Most of the examples of mirror like finishes I've seen are french polished shellac. That's one of the reasons it's so aggravating that I can't seem to achieve it. The gloss is supposed to be inherent to french polishing.

Don't worry about the wax. I shouldn't have mentioned it in the first place. My apologies.

Which 3M line of compounds are you referring to? I've looked at their web site and 3M makes about 5 trillion different automotive thingies. Meguiar's makes a large number of products too.

The one thing I can think of that I'm missing is a dual action polisher. But I figured using the automotive compounds by hand would work, it would just take longer. On the other hand I can't seem to get quite as uniform a surface with hand sanding wood as I can with my random orbital sander.

I *think* the step where I'm getting messed up is after the wet sanding is done and one has to turn to rubbing/polishing liquids. I saw a picture of a paint finish that was sanded up to 5,000 grit using 3M Trizact sanding disks. It was still a semi-gloss finish and the guys on the forum were talking about having to take out the sanding scratches. Even with 5,000 grit.

I may be using the wrong sequence of thingies, the wrong thingies, or using them wrong.


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## JGM0658 (Aug 16, 2011)

Ok, don't mean to sound like a jerk but you are trying two different varnishes, concentrate on one until you get it right then move on to the other one.

For lacquer I use the car polish trick, I wait at least 12 hours after the last coat to sand and re coat with lacquer, once I have put the coats I want I do a wet sand like you, apply the car polish and buff with a power buffer. It should work, maybe you are not giving the lacquer enough time to cure and harden.

For the french polishing, is your shellac fresh? is it waxed or dewaxed? I cannot tell you why is it not working for you, you are doing all the correct steps.


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## Purrmaster (Sep 1, 2012)

You're right. Shellac and lacquer are two very different animals. I mentioned those because I read in Flexner's book that those finishes rub out best. Varnishes, especially, polyurethane, don't rub out as well simply because they are so scratch resistant. Though I've got some Waterlox, which is a phenolic varnish so maybe it will rub out nicely.

Here's been my procedure for french polishing. I'll usually brush on some thin shellac to build it up. Then go for a few bodying sessions with alcohol, shellac and mineral oil. Gradually putting in more alcohol and less shellac. Then I'll use a different rubber/fad with just alcohol and 4F pumice. Usually I'll wet sand from 400-2,500. I use mineral spirits as the lubricant. Then a couple more bodying sessions. Then rottenstone. A few more sessions of rubbing with the charged rubber/fad and then let it sit overnight. Then get the mineral oil off with naptha.

I'm still not left with the gloss that I want. I'd take a digital picture but I figure the flash render it useless. I'll try a few trial shots.

With lacquer I start at 220 and then sand up to 3,000. Or with MicroMesh start at 3,600 and up to 12,000.


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## Moai (Feb 9, 2009)

I found this site to be VERY VERY helpful before, hope that helps.
http://www.milburnguitars.com/fpbannerframes.html


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## Purrmaster (Sep 1, 2012)

Thank you for the link. I've used that site as one of my tutors on french polishing. It's a good site.


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## RogerInColorado (Jan 18, 2013)

This is a pretty good tutorial as well. This is Part 1. 




after you watch it, make sure to watch part 2


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

+10 on the Johnson's Paste Wax (JPW) over shellac suggestions given above. I got such advice on my first and only shellac finish and it turned out very well.

I actually utilized a cotton sham on a 9in powered buffer to apply the JPW, testing as I went so as to not polish all the way through the shellac.


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

Don't use abrasives with the shellac. Pumice and rotten stone are abrasives. They will rub out the natural gloss of the technique. You should see the gloss very quickly after only a few bodying sessions. It'll always be there. Reducing the shellac amount before the final "spiriting off" only serves to slowly remove the swirl marks from working the shellac. By that time, your strokes are very light and across the entire length of the work.

I hope to post a French polished humidor soon, but I still need to finish out the trays and add hardware.


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## gfadvm (Jan 13, 2011)

My understanding of the pumice's function in French polishing is to fill the grain BEFORE applying any shellac. Pumice is an abrasive and would seem to dull a shellac finish. I've gotten mirror like finish with just shellac/alcohol/mineral oil (about 20 applications). Paul (Shipwright) gets the nicest French Polish finishes I've seen so his advice is worth heeding. Mike finish above looks pretty reflective to me (nice).


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

For lacquer, you can treat it like a car's finish. I've brushed it or sprayed it, let it dry and wet sanded (all the way to 600 grit) it just like a car's finish. And then I've used red rubbing compound and white polishing compound, ending up with a glassy smooth finish.

I've gotten close with shellac, but by spraying. With the right paint gun and practice, you might be amazed how nice shellac can look. Then again, I've polished some shellac to a fine sheen, too. I'll see if I can dig up an example.


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## oldworld124 (Mar 2, 2008)

Purrmaster,

I used to be into restorating cars. Below is one of the old Vettes I had. I always sprayed up to 30 coats of lacquer on them and then hand sanded and then hand polished them to a point. The final steps was with an electric buffer using Meguires products. The finishes always received very high scores at concours judging events.
Never use a real wax on lacquer. Wax completely seals off the air and lacquer needs to breath. It is best to use a polish. True polishes do not have wax in them and allow the paint to breath. Lacquer also needs time to gas off and cure before buffing. I usually waited at least one month for it to harden enough to be able to polish to a very high shine.


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## Purrmaster (Sep 1, 2012)

Thank you all for the information. Please, keep it coming.

John Ormsby: Could you please tell me which Meguiar's products you used after the wet sanding? And what sequence you used them in?

HorizontalMike: That is the kind of finish I'm trying to get with shellac. But my shellac, whether I apply pumice/rottenstone or not is never that glossy and shiny. I'm not sure mine even comes close.

The last time I tried to rub out a lacquer finish it didn't get very glossy either. I went up to 3,000 grit sandpaper. The finish was smooth to the touch but matte.

I was under the impression that lacquer and shellac are evaporative finishes. That is, the finish dries purely by solvent evaporation. There is no curing going on. When the lacquer thinner/alcohol is gone, the stuff is done. This is unlike a varnish.

Therefore, when I can smell no more lacquer thinner, the finish is dried and once dry it's as hard as it's going to get. Same with shellac. Once the alcohol evaporates you have your film of bug goo.

Can everyone please tell me what kind of polishes and compounds they use? And how you apply them? Thank you.


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## Iguana (Jun 22, 2011)

3M Perfect-It compounds - see http://3mcollision.com/media/documents/brochure//3M_Perfect-It_Paint_Finishing_System.pdf

They recommend sanding up to the Trizac 3000 pads. If you can get them cheap, go for it, but they do wear out very quickly. As I mentioned before, I wet sand to 1500 or 2000 using automotive wet/dry paper, and that seems to work well.


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

I broke down and bought Meguiars DA MicroFiber finishing system. It was about $80 with two correction pads and two finishing pads plus about a pint each of correction and finishing compounds. After a few coats of pre-catalyzed lacquer and sanding with high grits, the finishing compound brings up the luster nicely. (Plus I detailed my truck with it too)

The nice thing about this system is that it is nearly idiot proof.


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## Ripthorn (Mar 24, 2010)

For my guitars, I spray the lacquer, wait at least a week (that's the cure time for my water based lacquer), then start wet sanding. I only start at 400 if I had a big drip or other major disaster. Otherwise I start at 800 or 1000. Wet sand in one direction until all shiny spots are gone. Then go up to 1200, wet sand in the perpendicular direction until all 1000 marks are gone. Continue up through 1500 adn 2000. Then I use the Meguiar's scratchX product, followed by turtle wax swirl remover. Very nice high gloss. Also make sure your lacquer is gloss so as not to have flatteners in it.


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## Bonka (Apr 13, 2012)

http://www.homesteadfinishingproducts.com/htdocs/rubbingout.htm


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

I was under the impression that lacquer and shellac are evaporative finishes. That is, the finish dries purely by solvent evaporation. There is no curing going on. When the lacquer thinner/alcohol is gone, the stuff is done. This is unlike a varnish.

You are correct but lacquer is often put on fairly thick and it takes a good while to dry. 30 coats is normal for guitars and they are usually allowed to dry for a week or so. I put 2 coats of brushing lacquer on a turned piece and 24 hours later I could still smell the solvent, but it was a chilly evening.

So you never had any luck after all the advice from the last time you asked about this?


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## SRRieman (May 31, 2012)

Purr - You may be thinking everything is flat, but if it is, you should have no problem reaching a high gloss finish. From my experience ….and along with the car guys that already responded I go back to the days I use to have to prep high dollar paint jobs for the painter. And it all starts with the prepped surface. With wood finishes, it's no different. I've had good results using different oils and varnishes. Sand up to 220 and only 220 - this is like scuffing down the panels. Put down two or three coats of oil or wiping varnish of your choice - this is like a primer. I've had good results with danish oil, boiled linseed oil, tung oil, and salad bowl finish (GF). Give it a good day to fully dry. Then go back to it again this time flood the surface with the same finish and wet sand with 320 - 600. I've had good results going through all three. After that you have your choice of what you can do. You could put down a coat of poly and polish it out or take a different route - either way, trust me it will be much easier when the surface is completely dead flat. To me that's probably where you're going wrong. Smooth to the touch doesn't mean all that much. The surface needs to be flat not smooth. If you can't see a reflection across the surface without a gloss finish, it's not flat. Once it's flat you'll get your desired results easily. I've done this process and followed it up with wipe on poly for a super gloss finish. Oh and as far as letting polyurethanes dry for a month is new technique to me. We sold cars for six figures that were painted and polished within a week's time and looked like a sheet of glass.

Good Luck


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## Purrmaster (Sep 1, 2012)

Rick,

I'm afraid I haven't had any luck, as embarrassing as that is. Hence why I asked again. I've read up on everything I could find and still haven't gotten the gloss I should be getting.

As far as the Meguiar's finishing system…. does that require a dual action polisher? I haven't got one and can't afford to get one for now. Can said system be used by hand? I do have a crappy Harbor Freight random orbit sander: http://www.harborfreight.com/10-inch-random-orbit-waxer-polisher-43424.html

And I have a 5" random orbital sander (hook and loop).

But the foam pads I'm seeing on the Internet don't seem to fit it. And I have a bad feeling it may actually be too large and kind of useless. Heck, it was on sale.

It sounds like the 3M system requires a dual action polisher.

I am using gloss lacquer. And dewaxed shellac. No flatting agents. When I use varnishes I usually use satin, as I've read you basically can't rub out most varnishes to a gloss. And the only varnishes I have are polyurethane and Waterlox.

So far I've always used solvent based finishes except in one case when I had some waterbase left over.

I have one sheet of the Trizact 3,000 grit. I haven't seen the discs for it in a store yet.

Once again, my thanks. The more the merrier.


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## Purrmaster (Sep 1, 2012)

DS251,

Is this the Meguiar's system you were referring to?

http://www.meguiars.com/en/DAPowerSystem


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## jmos (Nov 30, 2011)

Here's a link to a Charles Neil video on rubbing out a finish. Haven't tried the method yet, but he presents it well. Might help. 




Another suggestion, if you've spent this much effort without satisfactory results, is to seek out some personal instruction. Maybe you can find someone who gives classes, or find someone willing to teach you at a local woodworking club/guild.


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## Tennessee (Jul 8, 2011)

Airframer is right. I do basically the same thing with my guitars, save I only wait about a week.
I sand up through 1200, then polish with either Megula's swirl remover, or Novus #2, which I consider a bit finer and better. 
Open grain or closed grain, I get the same results, save for open grain obviously you have all the little grain openings which don't shine up.
I did that process with a brushed two coat of poly on a walnut table, and you could count your fingers from two feet away. Hardness is the key before polishing. I've actually hung guitar bodies above one of my furnace vents, to get the clear finish to harden faster.


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## Finn (May 26, 2010)

I struggled with this same issue when using spray on lacquer finish. I finally found the best way …for me… is to sand to 180 grit, brush on shellac, sand with 220 and then two or more coats of lacquer. The sanding done before adding any finish makes a huge difference.


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## Purrmaster (Sep 1, 2012)

I always sand the wood to 180 or higher. Usually 220. That's before any kind of finish goes on it. Should I sand higher? When I've sanded to above 320 the finish doesn't seem to stick as well.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

I think the only time you benefit even from 220 is with an oil and wax finish. Most times I sand to 150 or 180 and use thinned shellac as a sealer then sand it smooth with 220.


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