# Gender and classes; why can't I take woodworking 101 with men?



## LisaC (Oct 10, 2009)

There are only two stores in my city that specialize and offer classes and demonstrations. I opened a flier for one of them looking for a class on tool sharpening.

What I saw made me sick to my stomach.

Woodworking 101 FOR MEN, offered only to men. And Wood Therapy III offered only to women.

There are two things (actually a lot of things) that I find problematic about these offerings.

There was only one introduction class offered (and it was offered only to men)... and the instructor decided to call the women's class "therapeutic". I found it offensive. Sure, woodworking is relaxing… but you don't ever see a general woodworking class marketed as therapeutic.

I looked a little closer and discovered that both of these classes were being held by the same instructor. There were other classes offered by other instructors that had no gender qualifying clauses for attendance.

I decided on my own that this guy might be a fluke. I wouldn't want to be taught by an instructor who assumed that I might be going into any class expecting special consideration (or a change in his teaching style) based on my gender assignment.

This whole thing surprised the heck out of me considering I live in a VERY liberal city. However, sexism is still alive and very well in the woodworking community. Even here throughout the forums I see sexist stuff that bothers me too. Stuff I wouldn't want my daughters looking at (if I had them). Or my sons… either. We tolerate it because… I don't know why? I dunno… Why are people allowed to post pictures of half naked women modeling tools around here anyway? It makes me uncomfortable… and I can choose to look away. And I do. But it does distract me from the community and the woodworking… I'm looking at tits, not the tools. I'm thinking about the sexist promotional group that is using that picture to manipulate men into thinking those tools are valuable… or to give them something to "admire".

Anyhoo… I know that in a few generations those models will be looked at differently, I feel sorry for those women actually. I feel sorry for the men, and men's wives who have to tolerate their men oogling that garbage… and they think they have to tolerate it.

Anyway… this is going on to blabbering. Please keep this discussion civil. Share your opinion, but remember that we're all feeling, living breathing and yes "sensitive" people who deserve respect. I didn't bring this up for a debate… I'm bringing this up as a place to share your own stories about how you feel or experience gender stereotyping in gender dominated trades.

Conversely, I teach knitting and have male clients who tell me about how they experience sexism/discrimination all the time and it makes them uncomfortable. Clerks in stores assume they are there for their wives and treat them without respect. They feel like they can not knit in public without hearing or feeling remarks from both men and women that imply that they might be homosexual… or it draws unwanted attention. They are true fans of the art… and the feel limited because they are carrying a pair of stones instead of melons.


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## WistysWoodWorkingWonders (Oct 4, 2009)

Hey Lisa,
Great write up… I agree that sometimes people stereotype women as not being capable of being in the shop. I am extremely happy to see women in the shop and am a true believer that most of them (if not all) have more talent in the shop than most of the men (me included 
Men and women both should belong in the shop, knitting, sewing, or whatever together… we allow women to serve beside us in war situations, yet give them the gears when they enter the shop… totally unacceptable…
If any women shows interest and ability in the shop, let her in… encourage and embrace her to achieve… this is how society improves…
For those that are too old school and can't get past womens rights, go hide in a cave. Times have changed and we need to change with them in order to achieve success in our lives… I highly encourage my wife and daughter to join me whenever they can in the shop… My wife put together a beautiful corner cabinet with a hutch that adornes our entry to our home… 
As for the photos of women holding tools… that doesn't really make me want to use the power tool more, but certainly I like most men, enjoy the pictures of those lovely women…

Good job Lisa and I hope this opens up some minds on women in the shop… your more than welcome in mine anytime…


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## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

Here's one good reason:

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"Great news for girl watchers: Ogling over women's breasts is good for a man's health and can add years to his life, medical experts have discovered. According to the New England Journal of Medicine, "Just 10 minutes of staring at the charms of a well-endowed female is roughly equivalent to a 30-minute aerobics work-out" declared gerontologist Dr. Karen Weatherby.

Dr. Weatherby and fellow researchers at three hospitals in Frankfurt, Germany, reached the startling conclusion after comparing the health of 200 male outpatients - half of whom were instructed to look at busty females daily, the other half told to refrain from doing so. The study revealed that after five years, the chest-watchers had lower blood pressure, slower resting pulse rates and fewer instances of coronary artery disease.

"Sexual excitement gets the heart pumping and improves blood circulation," explains Dr. Weatherby. "There's no question: Gazing at breasts makes men healthier." "Our study indicates that engaging in this activity a few minutes daily cuts the risk of stroke and heart attack in half. We believe that by doing so consistently, the average man can extend his life four to five years."

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Men's shops all over the world have pinups posters, photos etc it's healthy and natural. Hell, a guy working in my shop might live an extra 10 or 20 years.

All of that being said I enjoy women in the shop, it makes the day go by much nicer.


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## Newton (Jun 29, 2008)

Lisa,

You did not disclose the organization sponsoring the classes. What a bunch of crap! Last fall I attended a workshop given by John Wilson to make oval shaker boxes. The class had both men and women and was a pleasure to participate in. If you are interested in attending the "Men only" class I would encourage you to attempt to enroll and see if they are crazy enough to exclude you. The discrimination lawsuit would be easy to win. Woodworking is an activity that men and women can participate in with equal success. Who knows, maybe it is men only because the course include instruction on the proper way to measure your [email protected]#$s and they felt you would be at a distinct disadvantage.


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## lew (Feb 13, 2008)

I taught Electronics and computer since 1970, in the public school system. Years ago, the "brilliant" minds determined that girls weren't participating in certain subject areas so they made a push to enroll more "non-traditional" students in those areas that were dominated by gender. By singling out a specific gender, for "special treatment", I believe they made things worse. Limiting, or enforcing, quotas forces a label on a human being and a label is not a good thing.

Instead, we should be encouraging everyone to follow their dream. So many kids have told me- "I can't". They don't believe in themselves because they have never been encouraged to do so. We must provide the opportunities for everyone to achieve their potentials. Girls can aspire to, and achieve, any goal they wish. Sorry if that sounds sexist but I mean it in a good way.

Lisa- go take that class and show that stupid ass of an instructor that you are the best!!

Lew


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## AaronK (Nov 30, 2008)

wow that's ridiculous. i can't believe someone would even dare to even think of class titles like that,.


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## LisaC (Oct 10, 2009)

I feel like I want to retract something, but I want to keep it there too. Perhaps I will explain instead

I said… "Why are people allowed to post pictures of half naked women modeling tools around here anyway? It makes me uncomfortable… and I can choose to look away. And I do. But it does distract me from the community and the woodworking… I'm looking at tits, not the tools. I'm thinking about the sexist promotional group that is using that picture to manipulate men into thinking those tools are valuable… or to give them something to "admire".

Anyhoo… I know that in a few generations those models will be looked at differently, I feel sorry for those women actually. I feel sorry for the men, and men's wives who have to tolerate their men oogling that garbage… and they think they have to tolerate it."

EXPLANATION

I have a strong bias against unregulated pornography and prostitution because I worked in the sex industry as a photographer and was exposed to women who were on drugs and mentally unhealthy. I held this job for three months and quit because it was so disturbing. It is not representative of all sexualized media… but it is typical. It is the NORM.

I wonder if clients who look at pornography are aware that a good portion of these models are exploited, may have been rape victims, have mental injuries, have and share STDs, and that client interest and money contributes to the growing problems of women being attracted to and then being exploited by producers and consumers in that industry.

Personally, I do not want to be associated with it any more or exposed to it. I found it harmful to me, other women, and also men who had sex addiction and mental health problems.

Conversely, Pinups are wonderful and interesting and beautiful and sexually exciting. Looking at them in the privacy of one's own personal space is totally cool (so long as the women who volunteered to do them were adequately compensated). Modeling for them is of course legal and totally wonderful, I have even photographed pinups and modeled for some myself… but what are they really?

SUMMARY
Pinup models. They are women putting their sex out there for you to fantasize about. And I'm not interested in seeing that in a community oriented space like a learning website or a classroom.


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## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

Yeah, I figured that's what your post was really about after the slew of PMs I received from* Grizzman* last night. He's on some 1950s type crusade and threatening to have me banned because he doesn't like the Topics I post in the Coffee Lounge, my posts in general and anything else I do that he doesn't approve of. Then he sics his friends on me trying to stir the pot.

Pinups are fine. If you don't like them you might want to consider staying off of the Internet. Personally I enjoy the tool ads on this website and I click them fairly regularly. If they have pretty girls on them then that's even better. Now and then I even oogle a girl or three when I'm out and about. I would think anyone who lives in a "Very Liberal City" such as yourself wouldn't even notice.


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## ellen35 (Jan 1, 2009)

Lisa,
The first thing I would do is go to the store manager and explain nicely to him that there are many woodworkers who are women in your very liberal city. I would tell him that you will "pass the word" about how discriminatory these classes are and advise people/friends/just about anyone - both men and women woodworkers - to shop elsewhere… oh, and I would post the nameof the store on LJ - please! If it is a national chain… I'd go higher! And…I'd make sure everyone knew about posting it here on LJ. Most woodworkers I know would shop elsewhere if they thought that the art of woodworking was being disrepected in such a way as this store has proposed. I know I would.
This is a disgraceful situation. Most folks on this board are respectful (although I am wondering about Abbott right now!) and we are bonded by our love for woodworking. Occasionally, someone crosses a line… but I find ignoring him/her (yes, some are women), is the best course of action here. The support of the men and women on this board has been incredible and I have learned as much about people as I have about woodworking. 
I hope the store manager has the good sense to cancel both classes and fire the instructor. 
Ellen


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## LisaC (Oct 10, 2009)

Abbott,

I don't know anything about what you're talking about actually. I don't read much in the Coffee Lounge.

And you're sort of skating the line of a troll. Like I said, I'm not interested in a debate about what is or isn't acceptable. You did share your opinion.

You like pinups, you like to look at women, you don't see a problem, and people who don't like looking at them in public places should censor themselves and not complain.


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## LisaC (Oct 10, 2009)

Also.

I am not naming the store, because I am not interested in disparaging the store directly or causing them hardship. I am not a bully. I believe that if other people objected to what I saw, they will also go to the owners and voice an opinion. I did voice my opinion to them in an email. I told them that I was not going to spend money with them, I was sad about… because they do have some great products.

They did not respond.

Also, it was ONE guy who is giving the class and it would be unfair to say that he represents the store. I don't know the owners of this chain, and it would be harsh to judge them on a class description they probably didn't write and may not even be aware of.

I am hoping that when I open my next flier there will be something different. And I also will not take a class from that instructor, knowing what I know. But, I'm owning my bias and I would like for other people to just talk openly about how gender stereotyping in a craft/trade has affected them personally.

Our combined stories are more interesting than an individual wrong… people need to see that it is prevalent (as I suspect it is). It's not fun coming out and saying "I don't like this treatment!" And becoming the spokesperson just because you spoke first. Heh.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

*Lisa*:

Benefit of the doubt/devil's advocate/eternal idealist:

What if-based on his/her past experience-the MEN AND THE WOMEN wanted it this way-one class for each gender ?

I've seen lots of info that tends to indicate that-aside from all the individual differences-there seems to BE a gender difference in learning approaches.

A wise teacher might teach each class differently, then.

And … *abbott*:

You know the one guy at the party whose joke goes just a little too far, every time?

You're REALLY shaping up to be that guy. I'm REALLY not easily offended, but … if you aren't trying to be a troll, then … I guess it just comes naturally to you.

You're obnoxious and thoughtless. I hope you're proud of those qualities.


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## ellen35 (Jan 1, 2009)

Lisa,
In a perfect world, this kind of thing would not exist. I do believe the bigger issue here is that when one of us is treated unfairly, we are all treated unfairly. Naming the store (whether you choose to or not), gives us all (male and female woodworkers) the opportunity to take a stand together against sexism in THIS craft. I, for one, see that as an important way to help make change in the world a little at a time. My $50 isn't going to do it alone. Talking doesn't do it. Businesses are looking to make money… if revenue goes down because woodworkers don't like how they are treated, policies change to meet demand.
Your story is compelling.
Ellen


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## DanLyke (Feb 8, 2007)

Hi, Lisa, I don't have a strong opinion on pin-ups because I've known quite a number of women (and even a few men) who've worked in sex related businesses (from prostitution to doms to porn) who are quite happy doing what they did and find the social and legal stigma far more demeaning than the work or the way they were treated. In fact, one compared and contrasted her work at Mustang Ranch with her work in marketing in the tech industry in ways that weren't at all complimentary to the latter. Even though that's where she spent many more years of her life.

However, to your original point: The most competent person at my local Woodcraft happens to be female, and I can't imagine a store around here (SF "north bay" area) advertising a woodworking class for men without getting slammed hard and feeling a backlash from male customers. I hardly think of Seattle as that backwards, but I sometimes forget that Seattle is surrounded by regions where the enlightenment hasn't spread as far as it has from San Francisco. So a good step forward is probably to find some other women who are interested in woodworking and show these shops that there's a market there!


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## LisaC (Oct 10, 2009)

NBeener,

Since you asked… and it didn't seem like a debate or an argument… but a sincere question…

I would like to see any credible source that would suggest that how a woman interprets information should change how she is taught how to use a saw safely.

I would hazard to guess that this research that you see that says that men and women learn differently is a reflection of our desire to see the sexes as differentiated in both sexuality and interests. But what we KNOW is that women like woodworking too, and men like textile arts and that both can have masculine and feminine aesthetics (or what we think of as that… but that's totally debatable too).

Learning how to sew or learning how to use a saw does not require a significant mode of difference in teaching in order for the opposite sex to comprehend. It's not like men have three arms and women have four. That would be a practical learning difference!

Women are PERCEIVED to enjoy a more social nurturing environment. And men are perceived to prefer a more technical and task oriented one. This is a stereotype and it is somewhat true but not a universal truth. That's the problem… it is not a great way to create a community space for open learning or the free flow of ideas and culture. It's limited.

I call BS that the difference in how women and men process information in the brain matters AT ALL when it comes down to the practical aptitude of pulling a saw. Also, assuming these things does not take account for the percentage of people for whom this is not true.

And a joke… a *wise* teacher would never mention gender and education at all because they know how distracting discussing the issue is from actually getting anything practical accomplished. ;]


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

I just Googled

women men learning differences

There seem to be many paths to take, if you're genuinely and objectively interested in the subject.

I have no position on it, particularly, but raised-sincerely-the possibility that the students, themselves, requested separate classes.

Before I made ANY assumptions, I'd be talking to the teacher AND the store owner.


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## LisaC (Oct 10, 2009)

Hi Dan,

That's why I disclosed my personal experience. I am biased. I had a horrible experience in the sex industry (and it is one experience). I know women who have excellent experiences too. I see the bad experiences (for me) outweighing the good ones and so I choose not to participate or spend my time sorting through the exploitation to get at what I call "free range porn and prostitution".

It exists, and where it exists… I think monuments should be built to human achievement (again, a personal opinion).

I appreciate your perspective. I also agree with it. Thanks for balancing mine out.


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## Woodcanuck (Mar 9, 2010)

What a crock of…..well, you know.

Back when dinosaurs roamed the earth and I was in grade school, we had this problem. Boy's took shop class, girls took home economics. They changed it not long after that, but still, this mentality that tradeswork is "man's work" and sewing/knitting/quilting is "women's work" is ridiculous!

I've taken a bunch of courses through local rec centers as well as local stores like Lee Valley. Granted, most of the participants are male…but definitely not all, and there was never any attempt to make it a boy's club. In fact, if anything, I found that the female participants walked away with better results….maybe because they checked their egos at the door and came to learn something. I will even go so far as to say that the best instructor I had for any woodworking course was female. She taught a carving course and I can tell you that even the oldsters were very quick to recognize her superior skills, she had nothing to prove to anyone.

I work in the tech world and see the same thing there.

My wife's cousin (female) took a vocational school course introducing women to trades. They trained and worked along side trades people in a variety of trades for a period of several months. She ultimately went on to become an auto mechanic….and she does great. She gets her share of sexist crap from people, but after a while her peers accepted her and treat her as part of the team (not one of the boys).

Seriously, any store or school or center that is advertizing classes 'for men' and 'for women' should think long and hard about what they're trying to accomplish. I see no reason to differentiate.

For sure, I'd send that one up the management chain. I'll bet you find someone at the company who sees the ridiculous nature of the exclusion. Never be shy to tell someone that they can't help you and that you need to talk to their manager.

I got a total runaround from a certain cell carrier, eventually found out who the CEO was, sent a personal e-mail to him and miraculously got outstanding service after that with plenty of apologies and even crediting my account for the inconvenience.

Make a fuss….you deserve better!


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## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

Nothing but drama *Neil*.


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## Nomad62 (Apr 20, 2010)

Perhaps the store is advertising directly toward their "focus group". Not to say it's right, but that's the way marketing works. It's silly. Debate this and that whatever, the bottom line is you are looking in the wrong place (tho it shouldn't be) for your info. Look into local groups/guilds, you will find much friendlier people that are willing to help and share.


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## LisaC (Oct 10, 2009)

Abbott and NBeener. Please no personal attacks or fighting. It detracts from your valid and worthwhile contributions to the discussion.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

Lisa:

If you haven't called the owner and/or the instructor, I'm genuinely curious why not.

Without doing that, I think you're going pretty far down a particular path, when a reasonable answer could be easily obtained.

My $0.02.


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## LisaC (Oct 10, 2009)

Nomad62,

Or perhaps (as is more likely) the store allowed their instructors to teach whatever class the individual instructor suggested. And by looking at the other classes offered (which you guys don't have the benefit of seeing)... looked to be likely.

Your bottom line, you mean. Thanks for the suggestion, but the bottom line of this discussion is being ignored.

I asked people to share their own stories, and most are focusing on mine and kindly trying to solve a perceived problem… which I find interesting.

BECAUSE I don't have a problem at all. I had an experience, and I have an opinion. I want to hear opinions and experiences. =]


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## LisaC (Oct 10, 2009)

Nbeener,

You're making an assumption that I made no action. I emailed a week ago. I did not receive an answer. I did receive another scheduled emailed flier however. HAH!

I'm not asking for people to help me solve any problem I am having. I want to hear about other people's personal experiences of gender non-neutrality in trades and craft.


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## ropedog (Mar 26, 2008)

lisa if your not going to tell us who it is how are we supposed to help and get this changed.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

"You're making an assumption that I made no action. "

No. Actually, I'm not.

Here's what I said: "If you haven't called the owner and/or the instructor, I'm genuinely curious why not."

That's not an assumption, one way or the other.

Just wanted to clear that up….


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## ropedog (Mar 26, 2008)

i am a stay at home dad i see other working dads look down on me all the time, but i don't let it get to me F^%K them. there must be another place you can take classes. don't let it get to you. come to colorado and i will hook you up with classes at red rocks, no problems there.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Lisa, I find the situation you describe with the woodworking classes almost unbelievable in this day and age. Frankly, I'd be surprised to see that going on in some backwater village, let alone in a modern, cosmopolitan place like Seattle. I really don't know what else to say about that…. it virtually leaves me speechless.

Your other comment about pin-ups, though, touches on a subject I find extremely interesting. (And no… I don't mean that in the sense that I find boobs interesting. ) First, let me tell you that my views on most issues are probably about as feminist as those of any man you're likely to run across. I believe in women's reproductive rights, equal pay for equal work, and the opportunity for a woman to do any job she is capable of doing…. including combat infantry if that is her desire.

Having said that, though, I think that men and women have a very difficult time really understanding each other's feelings on the "pinup" issue.

I'm glad you explained your feelings based on your experience with the sex industry. Given what you saw, you are understandably and rightfully sensitive to the exploitation that takes place there. I think most men and women can agree on that if they really look at it.

But I can't really put that in the same category with well-paid women in bikinis modeling table saws either. This is where men and women find it hard to relate, IMO. As best I can understand it, many women think that when a man looks at an attractive, scantily clad woman in an advertisement or photograph, he is mentally reducing her to an object to be used for sexual gratification. I really don't think that view gives men enough credit for their ability to separate fantasy from reality. Even though a particular image may spark a man's sexual interest, that doesn't really mean anything in relation to what he feels about the individual posing for that image.

Let me try to explain it another way: Many women enjoy romance novels. The male protagonists in these books rarely bear much resemblance to everyday, ordinary men, any more than that perfectly-shaped and airbrushed woman resembles the average female. If we men were so inclined, we might assert that the readers of these novels objectify men by creating some sort of unattainable standard to which most "real" men will never measure up.

I really don't see much difference between the two scenarios, other than the fact that women seem to be more easily stimulated by the written word, whereas men have been shown to react more strongly to visual stimuli.


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## LisaC (Oct 10, 2009)

Hi Roper! Nice to see ya.

I think that if people just aware that this happens they can make changes at home and in their personal lives that have much further reaching influence.

Also, I don't want to disparage a business during a hard economic time for my region. I wanted to show an example of how an individual instructor with an individual agenda could affect a business… and how it affected me personally. Maybe if you see your local business doing something like this you could say… "I was part of this discussion online about this very same scenario and it could have REALLY hurt the reputation of that business. But we decided to talk about it first before going off all cold-cocked. We had some interesting opinions and the majority were that even if some students wanted to be taught in a segregated class… most felt it was not necessary and even harmful for the advancement for women in the trades."

That's my naive hope anyway.

Also… I don't want to be entirely unwelcome if/when I decide I want to go back there an spend more money… it might be a franchise… but it's owned by people I don't personally know and I'm talking about something I read that bothered me… not an actual IN MY FACE discrimination. I want to keep things in context.


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## ropedog (Mar 26, 2008)

hi lisa hope you have been well except for this, if i where in your shoes i would never shop at that woodcraft/rockler again. the more business you take away from someone the more things will change.


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## stevenmadden (Dec 10, 2009)

Lisa,

I know that you are looking for others to share their personal experiences, but I would like to share what my wife said about this subject. I read through this thread and thought I would share it with my wife, to see what her thoughts were. As usual, I think she is right on. Here is what she said:

"Hmm. Kind of sad that classes aren't offered equally. Perhaps she needs to search out a different venue. I agree with the objectifying of women to sell tools-not a good idea, even though it probably works. I guess it would seem pretty stupid to have a half dressed man modeling a ball of yarn, so why should women model tools? Appealing to the corrupt side of humans, i guess."

I would add that even though it is obvious to anyone paying attention that men and women are different (for good and logical reasons), it is not a good idea to take those differences and turn it into a better/worse or superior/inferior argument, the fact is, men and women are just different. Having said that, I need to go now and put on my flame suit…

Have fun with the rest of your discussion.

Steve


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

I'm sorry, but … I'm going to repeat this, in the vain hopes that it gets read:

What if … the students expressed a preference for separate classes.

I'm just a little concerned that the store is getting trashed, when … it's just as possible that they're giving the people "what they want."

Even though Lisa's being VERY wise in not naming Woodcraft #307 … it's not going to take much research for somebody to figure out who we're discussing, here.

But I make NO assumptions about how or why this came to be.

I just think it's an answer that "we," collectively, need, before actually discussing THIS case, rather than gender inequities and inequalities, in general.


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## North40 (Oct 17, 2007)

I obviously don't know what's in the mind of the guy teaching the classes, but I'll offer my perspective based on a beginner-level archery class I used to teach. In my experience, shooting sports are also predominatly male activities.

*Some* men don't want to admit that they don't know something, especially about traditionally male activities, so they tend to brag and bluff and bluster and generally be agressive to cover for their ignorance. *Some* women find this kind of behaviour intimidating to the point that they are distracted and inhibited. *Some* men feel compelled to show women "how it's done" and take over, and *some* women won't stand up and say, "no, I'll do it myself" (especially to a strange man). These sort of interactions make the class less informative and less enjoyable for everyone.

So my *guess* is that the intention is to make the situation more comfortable for women, similar to women-only athletic clubs.


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## ropedog (Mar 26, 2008)

it must just be for that woodcraft because the one in denver does not do that. and i don't know if they want it that way, maybe we should give them a call or let them give there explanation on this thread.


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## ellen35 (Jan 1, 2009)

Neil,
It is NOT LIKELY that this is the case! 
Woodworking is not a gender specific activity… it is gender neutral.
Even the title is belittling - Woodworking 101 for Men vs Wood Therapy III for Women.
Just my 0.02….


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Steve: What your wife said and what you said are a perfect example that men and women are different. If half-naked men were modeling women's products, most guys couldn't care less.

For the guys out there, let's face it: If your wife got turned on by thumbing through a magazine full of scantily-clad buff guys, and she was ready to drag you off to the bedroom, you'd be happy as a clam. But reverse the sexes and see what happens… your wife will most likely be furious, and think that all you want to do is use her as a surrogate to mentally be with those other women.

I don't know if that difference is biological, cultural, or both…. but that's why this is such an interesting topic.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

*Ellen*: I do agree that-even if their intentions were good, and the decision WERE driven BY the customers, the title thing is pretty ridiculous.

Again, I make NO assumptions about why they're doing what they're doing. I simply raise a possibility, and suggest that-since we DO NOT know the reason-we should tread cautiously, until we do…..


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## North40 (Oct 17, 2007)

I agree that the title of the women's class is condescending and poorly chosen. However, I don't think the lousy title, by itself, proves that the teacher hasn't had some indication that women would prefer to have a seperate class.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

Just checked my local.

THEY don't follow that practice, either.

it IS very odd….


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## LisaC (Oct 10, 2009)

Charlie,

Thanks for your well written and well thought out perspective. I've thought about and been exposed to and also held at times this belief also. So, I see where you're coming from. Is it right for me? No… I don't think so. I'm not satisfied with it… because I don't read mass produced sex novels either. I'm interested in quality and that the artists is well compensated. I'm also interested about a balance between protecting the consumer, society, and the individual… something where no specific entity's agenda is given too much precedence over the other to the point of unbalanced harm.

Also women in pictures are not the same as imaginary characters in a book. Women in pictures are real human beings being paid to act or to perform.

Is that specific woman in that ad a well paid model? We'll just have to assume it… unless we want to track her down and learn all about her modeling career. But how many people actually take the time to do that? We have to trust that our tool dealer is adequately compensating these ladies… and if they are, are they really thinking about the consequences of being involved in the mainstream of sex driven advertising… and how that might affect the self esteem of women in the trades? When I look at those ads it turns me off… it has the exact opposite affect that it's intended to do because it is not appropriately directed at a consumer with money in her pocket to burn.

But it turns me off not because I am opposed to looking at pretty ladies… it turns me off because it's unsophisticated and it reminds me of the abuse in the modeling and sex industry, and the kind of men I don't want to meet in my woodworking career. Companies might want to think about this. Maybe companies might want to talk about what their agendas are with this… really. Is it for FUN? I don't think so. Those ladies sell… sell tools to heterosexual men who feel funny in their pants when they see boobs. And I don't see a lot (though I don't look too hard) that those same/similar companies value women customers enough to not also stereotype them as project moms or janitors either in their directed advertising. I saw some dust masks at THE OTHER chain store in Seattle with a Latina looking female with a cleaning bottle in her hand on the box.

There are lots of these weird little gray areas when it comes to advertising and marketing… and I just hope that maybe I am reaching some people out there to open their eyes a little bit. These images have an affect on us as people, as a society… many of those affects are unspoken or not fully explored.

It's such a hard place to be… we want culture, but we want equality and inclusion too… these questions and situations require us to think about a very complex and complicated world… it's no wonder that people want things simple and base. Nobody wants to have to think about this stuff ALL the time.

I'm a professional woodworker. I can say it. I make my living from woodturning now. I'm joining the ranks of women in trade. I spend thousands of dollars on equipment every year and I'm going to be making some choices about where that money is going to go… and it's going to go to the most socially responsible companies as often as I can manage it. Not just because I care about women's rights… but because I care about giving my money to people and companies that see beyond what makes the fast buck, gives the biggest boner, and draws the largest company paycheck for its shareholders.


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## SteviePete (May 10, 2009)

Way too many words, too much meta-thinking. The solution to all this slop about some dunderhead starts with each of us - within us. WW is a great equalizer. My spouse of 35-years, daughters of 33 and 31 yrs are all outstanding craftsmen. All learned from the spectrum of Saints to Dunderheads. We approach issues of gender and WW in much the same way. Look for wisdom, skills, knowledge and enjoyment in everything you do. No time to foment conflict or ruminate on percieved slights. Put your own happiness first, if things in the world show beauty and bring peace-who has time for anything else? If you want something to change--change yourself. Now stop this-go to the shop, plane a board-nothing more satisfying than full curls of board length shavings. Grace and peace to you, all. s


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## LisaC (Oct 10, 2009)

Peter,

I think this is what the instructor is trying to avoid. Yes. But haven't we agreed collectively as a society that gender segregation in education is not necessarily a good thing? We have, and that's why anything federally funded must adhere to anti discriminatory policy. Only private schools are allowed segregation. And I suppose an individual workshop qualifies as private instruction.

I'm not debating the right for this instructor to have this class. I'm saying I object to it on principle. I won't attend it, and I don't want to support a business that segregates students based on gender or uses well known stigmatizing words like "crazy, therapeutic, or calming" with a class targeted for women. (please not, only therapeutic was mentioned in the headline of the class… the other words were added for context)

However. Individuals are able to choose for themselves. Some instructors who have the luxury of not having to deal with anti discriminatory policy are still free to offer segregated classes for something as banal as turning a band saw on. Maybe they think they know better… or maybe they want to not deal with the responsibility of teaching students how to not interfere with the learning experience of other students? Or maybe they just haven't thought about it at all…..


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

I'm a professional woodworker. I can say it. I make my living from woodturning now. I'm joining the ranks of women in trade. I spend thousands of dollars on equipment every year and I'm going to be making some choices about where that money is going to go… and it's going to go to the most socially responsible companies as often as I can manage it. Not just because I care about women's rights… but because I care about giving my money to people and companies that see beyond what makes the fast buck, gives the biggest boner, and draws the largest company paycheck for its shareholders.

Well said, Lisa. As women gradually become a bigger part of the tool market, companies will be forced to rethink their advertising strategy.

You have made some excellent points, and I'm convinced that your concern really is for the well-being of the models. However, I can't escape the feeling that for most women it has more to do with resentment against the men for what they *think* is going on in our heads.


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## LisaC (Oct 10, 2009)

Steve,

You're funny.

--
Everybody else.
I do need to get out to the shop. It was a nice conversation all. I wish you the best and be well. I've given my best attention to this topic for a few hours, and I'm done for the day.

HAPPY SAWDUST MAKING!


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## LateNightOwl (Aug 13, 2009)

*Lisa said:*

I'm bringing this up as a place to share your own stories about how you feel or experience gender stereotyping in gender dominated trades.

When will it end?! Here's some of my story…
In the 60's I wanted to take shop classes in school - NO GIRLS ALLOWED! They wouldn't even let me take drafting. My parents even went to bat for me and raised hell with the administration. No luck; I was forced to take sewing. I still despise sewing to this day.

Early 70's, I wanted to be a plumber like my dad. I went to union hall to sign up for the apprenticeship program - NO GIRLS ALLOWED. After 4 years of being banned each year from the apprenticeship program, my dad "borrowed" an application and brought it to me. I filled it out using my initials rather than my name, then Dad sneaked it back into the pile of applications. I got a card telling me where and when to show up for the entrance exam. I was competing against 398 young men for one of 16 openings. The men at the testing facility were too shocked to come up with a quick strategy bar me from taking the test. After two days of grueling tests, guess who got the third highest score? They were stuck with me… and they acted like it! On top of that, many guys who resented me because they "knew" I was there because of some Affirmative Action program taking a job away from a man. It never stopped; there was always someone determined to run me out of the trade. There is more to the story - the violent ending - but I really don't want to share that part of it.

Here we are in the 21st Century, and honestly, Lisa, as your story illustrates, things have not improved a whole heck of a lot in 50 years. I'm still likely as not to be ignored when walk into a "guy store"... even a plumbing supply. When I finally get a salesman's attention, I usually have to put up with condescending crap. Same thing buying a truck, hiring a contractor, hiring someone to do home service, etc, etc. (Yeah, guys, I know this happens to you sometimes, too… and if pointing that out is all you have to say on the subject, you've missed the point.)

LumberJocks is a mostly civil place for women, and I am thankful for that. But it truly sucks that we live in a world that women have to be grateful to be treated mostly with civility. The degrading stuff about women exists here, too… the degrading jokes about women still show up, disparaging (haha) remarks about "the wife" are common, and, yeah, the pictures that get posted in the Coffee Lounge can be disturbing. I think the women in the ads are fine, hopefully the models are as well compensated as they are endowed.

*Lisa said:*
Even here throughout the forums I see sexist stuff that bothers me too. Stuff I wouldn't want my daughters looking at (if I had them). Or my sons… either. We tolerate it because… I don't know why? I dunno…

I think we tolerate it because if we didn't, we sense that we would no longer be quite so tolerated. We would be seen as not having a sense of humor, or taking things too personally. If you object too strenuously, you are automatically a prude, a bitch, or a ******************** in some minds.

I may take some heat for this, but I want to add one more thing that I think also contributes to the issue here on LJs and elsewhere… when women play the sex card. When women come into a space like this and act flirtatiously or have to remind others they are "just a girl" in their posts, I think it contributes to the mindset that all women are okay with that and want to be treated in a different way from the rest of the LJ community.

Oh, and you boys who are fishing… I'm not going to take the bait, so don't bother.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

*Mary Anne*: very well said.


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## LisaC (Oct 10, 2009)

Mary Anne. You're my personal hero for the day.

And really this is my final post…. maybe. HAH!

I want to say that if under some circumstance the actual instructor for the Seattle class does end up coming or being invited to this forum. I think that would be lovely. He's totally welcome and I hold not specific animosity or personal dislike of him as an individual (I've never met him). I don't claim to understand why he chose the names he did or why they think there's a true need for these classes. It would be great to find out…

I just wanted to talk about gender stereotyping as a generality. I hadn't intended to ask for anybody to be held publicly accountable for their choice of instructing a segregated woodworking class. I think it is possible to go astray unintentionally with words, and I also believe that people will disagree and have different ways of communicating. Also students will have differing educational needs.

It would be interesting to find out the reasoning behind why these classes exist.

So I have sent an email to the store inviting him to this specific discussion thread.


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## m88k (Apr 26, 2010)

Just a thought, but this is all based on how they advertised the classes, right? Now the 101 for men just seems senseless, but the "therapeutic woodworking for women" may just be effective marketing. I'd be willing to bet that this is a field where more women are likely to sign up for a class for women. My girlfriend's mom is probably in that category.

Also, I would read "wood therapy" without the for women, at least, as finishing work/restoration, but maybe that's just me.

For the record, the girls in my engineering classes are far better than the average of my male classmates; my theory is that women entering the field are much more driven than most men, who see it as a standard occupation.

I'd also agree with Neil; until I called, I would assume the email wasn't read for one reason or another. I've had to contact corporations for projects a lot lately, and my response rate is probably less than 20%. So I email multiple addresses, look up individuals, and make phone calls. Companies get at least as much junkmail as the rest of us, a lot more if they have they have an email link or similar on their website.


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## North40 (Oct 17, 2007)

Lisa - You asked for personal examples and perspective, which I gave.

I believe that we've "agreed collectively as a society that gender segregation in education is not necessarily a good thing". But I don't think that translates into "always a bad thing".

Which provides more equality to women: 1) a co-ed class that some women won't attend because of jerky guys that may be there, or, 2) a women-only class where women can gain the knowledge that will put them on the same footing as their male counterparts without the possibility of being discouraged by overbearing men? I would think that the class that allows the most women to gain the most knowledge and experience would be the one that provides the most equality.


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## LisaC (Oct 10, 2009)

Peter,

The class that provides more equality to EVERYONE is the class that provides moderated instruction where jerky people are not allowed to intimidate students.


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## Gene01 (Jan 5, 2009)

Experiences and thoughts.
In the area of rural AZ that I call home, women participate in all endeavors commonly associated with ranching. 
The last woodworking class at our local Jr College had 8 ladies enrolled and 12 guys. 
I don't know if it's how I'm wired or not, but I can't seem to get interested in the fiber arts. Like to cook though.
Recently took a concealed weapons course. 5 gals and 5 guys. Guess which gender group got the best scores in marksmanship.
I am 68 years of age and can still appreciate a well turned ankle. 
My wife and I enjoy many hours in the shop. There are certain processes she likes and certain ones I like. And, there are those neither of us likes. Together, we "lick the platter clean", so to speak.
I've been accused of wearing blinders before but, I've never experienced or seen instances of blatant sex discrimination. Exploitation, for sure! Heck, in 1959, there was a girl who made the second team on our high school football squad. I was a football player and, during basketball season, a cheerleader. I *may* have exploited that.


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## North40 (Oct 17, 2007)

Lisa, I agree with you 100% in principle. But it's not that simple in practice. Even if a teacher manages to figure out how to adequately monitor/control a jerky person in a class (difficult), the jerk isn't identifiable until he's already intimidated someone and the class has been interrupted.

I think the very possibility that there may be an overbearing man in a class is a deterrent to some women taking classes in traditionally male subjects. If some women avoid education because it is co-ed, then co-ed education is effectively more discriminatory than segregated education.


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## KayBee (Jul 6, 2009)

One of the points is that women weren't offered a choice of classes (neither were the men). The men have '101' and the women have 'therapy'. The classes are gender specific and closed. I learn better in '101' classes than 'touchy, feely, good karma' bs type classes, but can't take it. Not being allowed to follow the path that leads to my best learning is, well, wrong.

Not trying to start something, but.. How is something 'more equal(ity)' ? It's equal or it's not. Maybe you mean that you think you're providing more opportunity. That's not the same thing though. Personally I know many other women that would love to deal with 'jerky' guys in a shooting class. It's about the instructors' attitude and maintaining control of the class.

`


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Hard to know the reason for the titles. My wife is definitely one who probably would not sign up for a co-ed woodworking class if she were interested. It would have to be a women's class.


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## ropedog (Mar 26, 2008)

the more i think about this topic i was wondering, would the naming of the classes make such a difference if one was taught by a man and the other by a woman? hope woodcraft is paying attention to this thread.


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## Wood_smith (Feb 12, 2010)

Lisa, the more people like you bring these issues up, the more discussion (just look at all the posts here!), and the sooner these inequalities will go away. You won't solve it overnight, but you've probably opened a lot of eyes.
I've seen similar silliness [as in the class titles you mentioned] in television ads. Take Rice Krispies, for example. The commercials we see up here in Canada show a mother making Rice Krispie squares with her kids, then we see the caption "Moms Know" in flowery letters.
Well, this is one dad who bakes for (and with) his daughters every time they're here (I'm divorced). I wrote Kelloggs a letter complaining about the commercials. A spokesperson phoned me (a woman- coincidence?) and apologized. I simply said (a)they're offensive to men and (b) you're alienating half the market. The ads were pulled for a few months, but I see they're back again. I wrote again, but this time no answer. 
I guess marketing tells them to forget men. Oh yeah, I no longer buy Kelloggs products.
So, keep up the good work, Lisa, hopefully we can make a difference!


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## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

Well* Lisa*, this may make you feel a bit better about the situation 

*U.N. elects Iran* - a nation that condones lashings for 'immodest' women - to its human-rights monitoring Commission on the Status of Women.

Link


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## mrg (Mar 10, 2010)

Lisa, I would just sign up for the class. Chances are that not so many people take the class and they would be glad to have you. Give the store or the instructor the benefit of the doubt that maybe some women feel intimidated in a class and may have requested these classes in the past and they find breaking into groups it works better.

I go to the HomeDepot for her classes with my wife from time to time and they have no issue with guys being in the class. They do this because women I guess feel more comfortable when they say it's for women. My wife has gone with me to a saturday morning HomeDepot class for guys that she was the only women there. You want to do the class then do it.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I got this email a while back. http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww302/Dopamax/Womanoftheyear.jpg
Good response for the UN


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## North40 (Oct 17, 2007)

KayBee - I agree that a choice would be better. I have a feeling that if a woman wanted to attend Woodworking 101, she wouldn't be prevented - she certainly shouldn't be.

By "more equality" I mean "less inequality" - hopefully approaching "zero inequality". I recognize that in mathmatical terms "more equality" is technically incorrect (like "more unique"). But the phrase is widely used (try a Google search) to mean a reduction in disparity between the treatment of groups of people. In this usage, it's a condition, not a mathmatical property. It's like "clean". You could say something is clean or it isn't … but you could also say something is more clean than something else.

I, too, know women who can give as good as they get and aren't intimidated by jerks - I'm married to a woman like that. I also know women who are shy and easily discouraged - I'm the father of a young woman like that. I see my very bright daughter pass up opportunities if she percieves that there is a risk that she will be marginalized, regardless of how realistic that perception is.

"It's about the instructors' attitude and maintaining control of the class." Ideally, yes. But I'm not sure it's realistic to expect a guy who teaches a couple of woodworking classes to be an expert manager of gender dynamics (or any interpersonal dynamics, for that matter). There are plenty of people who are interesting and informative but aren't good conflict managers. Does that mean they shouldn't share their knowledge?


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## LateNightOwl (Aug 13, 2009)

As I read all of these posts about women and wives being intimidated or uncomfortable to be in a class with men, I wonder why. And why should we accept that it is okay, normal even?

Shouldn't *any* woman, not just a select brave few, be able to feel comfortable in *any* classroom? For that matter, shouldn't any man be able to take one of Lisa's classes without fear of how he'll be perceived?

It drives me crazy that just because something is commonplace it is accepted as normal and okay.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Mary Anne, too many guys have an IQ about the same as their age :-( I don't expect it to change in the forseeable future.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Lisa, My guess is the classes are titled to attract to the average person. I seriously doubt you would be turned away. I would probably stand a bigger chance of being turned away from the women's class than you would the men's.


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## Gregn (Mar 26, 2010)

Hi Lisa, Sorry to hear that you had to learn the hard realities of the porn industry first hand as a photographer. I can appreciate your disgust for porn and understandably so. It does not change the fact that pin up or poster girls are a marketing ploy. It is a proven fact that men think of sex more than one might think. So tool companies use them, to get men's attention because they know your going to look. Men know that a pin up girl won't get you to buy a tool, but it will get men to look at their tool. You will find sex used as a marketing tool for both genders. Look at the women who model bra's and panties and such things for women on TV. Everyone knows no man is going to buy these products but they still do it. But then this isn't what your rant is about, but about you being rightfully pissed off at the guy/firm that discriminated against women in the woodworking industry. This is where I stand behind you 100%. I taught my daughter woodworking, and she took woodworking in middle school and in high school. Here's where the story for her begins. A male teacher gave my daughter crap and told me that she was in the class for only one reason, BOYS. I quickly informed the SOB that he better back up the phone real quick. For which I received lip service in the form of an apology. He continued to treat my daughter in his sexist manner. Until I went to the school when I found out he was telling my daughter how to do things incorrect on a project. I then sat down with him and the principal and told him that his information was incorrect and that he was disrespectful to my daughter when she tried to explain what she was doing. I then informed him that I was also a woodworker and have a full shop of tools and taught my daughter how to use them and work with wood. He then started backing up his words but to no avail. By the time I was done in that office that man was looking for a new job. I bring kids into the shop and teach them woodworking, and I will admit that I am a sexist when it comes to the shop. Here's why I treat boys and girls differently. When boys come into the shop they automatically go into the Tim Allen mode. So I start them out with hand tools because they don't listen to instruction well and are in a hurry to get it done. SO I start them out with hand tools to slow them down a bit. Because they don't pay attention most times to what they are doing. Now I'm not saying all boys are like this, but the majority are. Now I bring a girl in the shop its a whole new ballgame. I will start them out using the machines most times. The reason for this is girls aren't in a hurry and they pay attention well to instruction. They watch what they're doing and tend to ask questions. Girls aren't so much interested in what tool they want to use, but what tool will do what they want to accomplish. Unlike boys want to use tools to use tools. I teach kids how to work safely and how to use hand and power tools. They all learn that I will make them wear they're safety glasses and follow all safety rules. So Lisa I stand behind you 100% when it comes to a women doing anything they desire to do. I know women who weld and do construction work. If I were you I would let that company know how you feel and that you won't tolerate being discriminated against. Heck tell them if they are going to maintain that type of attitude that you will write a letter to the editor of your local newspaper about how they are so particular about taking money from women and providing them the same service as men. I bet if you called this guy's wife and told her this his tune would change quick. LOL


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## woodcrafter47 (Nov 24, 2009)

sign up for the class !!


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## LateNightOwl (Aug 13, 2009)

TopamaxSurvivor-

That is what I thought nearly 50 years ago. Sadly, I was right. 
Will it change in another 50 years? Probably not by much.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Mary Anne, I had to deal with this issue about the same time you were trying to become a plumber. I had a woman apprentice on my crew and an engineer who had to make a wise crack everytime he walked by :-(( Only man I ever knew that got a ticket for drunk walking. He really did!! Not the brightest bulb in the bin )


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## Bothus (Sep 14, 2009)

Hi Lisa, I agree with you on just about everything you said. I don't like to see sex in advertising unless sex IS what your advertising. I also feel sorry for the women. Even if they are not being abused I just feel bad that they do not have more self esteem.

As for the men… who knows?

I remember once years ago my neighbor's water heater when out and since her husband was off with their truck she asked if I would use truck to help her go buy a new one. We went to a big box store and she found a sales guy to help her make her selection. Every single time she asked him a question he would turn to me and answer it. After about three or four times of this I said "Hey, I'm just the chauffeur, talk to her." But it didn't help, he still kept directing all his comments to me.

It was so stupid we laughed about it all the way home.

Bothus


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

When my daughter was gong to school we went to buy her a car. The salesman kept talking to me, I told him I'm just driving her around. PO 'dher to the point, she bought a different brand ;-))


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## grub32 (Jan 20, 2010)

I just had a couple of relevant poitns to make here… I know that in my area, we have a CURVEDS which is an all womans gym. my wife goes there b/c she feels more comfortable there. no men to stare and hit on her.

I spoke to her about this topic and she was all for the womans course. she said that she would feel more comfortable to ask questions with other woman so the boys wouldn't look down upon her for asking what they would consider a stupi question.

That maybe something to consider.

do they advertise their intermediate classes for just men/woman??

I honestly believe that they are trying to create a more comfortable learning environment for the woman.

Grub


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## mtkate (Apr 18, 2009)

I was denied shop class in the 1980s because I was a girl. I am STILL pissed off about that.

I would ask the place when is their next class for Woodworking 101 FOR WOMEN… And mention you have several friends who would like to attend the next session of Wood Therapy III for MEN. If I got a "there are no such classes" I would literally go banshee in the place.

And if I had the time, I would probably sign up for Woodworking 101 FOR MEN under a gender neutral name, show up and if they questioned - I would tell them I was transgendered and offer a peek.

But that's just me.


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## LateNightOwl (Aug 13, 2009)

My last words sound so hopeless… Actually, I generally maintain a fairly hopeful outlook in my life. I must be some kind of optimist to begin woodworking at this late stage in life!  It is difficult sometimes to be a whole person in a forum thread.

I think that this very civil conversation is taking place here is a hopeful sign for the future. Change may not be fast enough for me, but it is happening. Young women can take shop classes in school now, and young men can learn to cook and sew if they want. It sounds like (from gregn's post) that they still have to take crap for it, but it is happening. Women are becoming empowered and a lot of men are finally learning that it may even be a good thing.

Meanwhile, I have a butcher block to finish tonight…


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## MyFathersSon (Apr 30, 2009)

I suspect by now that everything worth saying about the details of the orignal question has already been said. 
So I will just toss in a proud shout out for my little home town.
I was raised in Tupelo, Mississippi-HARDLY a stronghold of liberalism 
And in HS girls had to take a semester of shop (wood, metal, plastic, leather) and guys had to take a semester of Home Ec. (cooking, cleaning, sewing, setting a proper table) and BOTH classes were co-ed-everybody did the same thing. Kids being kids-- we picked on eachother mercilessly-- but I dont remember anything negative coming down from the instructors in either class.
SO-being conservative-and even old fashioned-and being sexist - are NOT synonymous.


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## Eli (Mar 3, 2010)

Since I've seen no rebuttal to NBeener's theories, I wonder what we're upset about. The separate classes or just the names? If the separate classes is addressing differences in learning, or comfort levels, or consumer demand, is woodcraft really so sinister? Frankly, separate classes alone isn't sexist at all. If we hold them to a higher standard than what society has set, shouldn't we be upset at the women who take these classes, too? If they wouldn't have taken a mixed class, they're perpetuating the division as much as anyone. I guess each person has their own thing the don't like about the situation.

Also, Charlie, why call equal rights feminist? Aren't they equally masculist? Isn't is sexist to ascribe the desire for gender equality to women only? Why do I have to be a feminist to want equality? How about an equalist? Or maybe just a normal person? Then call everyone else a sexist. That places equality in the position of a cultural norm, putting the pressure on outsiders. Giving a special title to those seeking equality is accepting that sexism as the standard. Are you ok telling people that it's normal to be sexist?

Lisa, I'm sorry this thread isn't turning out the way you hoped, but I found this tangent far more compelling. If you'd like an experience, I've been called gay or a girl tons of times because I sew, bake, and knit. I don't say anything because by getting offended I'd be agreeing that being gay or female are undesirable. It bothers me when people push gender roles on others. At the same time, there are differences in the genders. We have to be careful to see the forest and the trees.

Eli


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Also, Charlie, why call equal rights feminist? Aren't they equally masculist? Isn't is sexist to ascribe the desire for gender equality to women only? Why do I have to be a feminist to want equality? How about an equalist? Or maybe just a normal person? Then call everyone else a sexist. That places equality in the position of a cultural norm, putting the pressure on outsiders. Giving a special title to those seeking equality is accepting that sexism as the standard. Are you ok telling people that it's normal to be sexist?

You are absolutely correct, Eli. But I was trying not to lead the topic off in yet another direction. We could easily have a lengthy discussion on the sexist behavior of females.

For what it's worth, my wife and I both work, she makes considerably more than I do, and I do most of the cooking and laundry. And none of that bothers me in the least.


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## Eli (Mar 3, 2010)

We could even consider it sexist that you felt the need to point that out. I'm not trying to pick on you. I'm just saying.

Eli


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## mike85215 (Oct 16, 2009)

Lisa I have taken the time to read this thread, and yes it is getting long. While I will not pretend to understand what you are saying (I am a male after all), I do have some difficulty in some areas….

1. I do believe that it was your responsibility to announce the name of the store, rather than let someone else. With the internet the way it is there is little doubt that it would stay hidden. I also think that the phone number should have been provided as well, if for nothing else so others who are concerned could call the company to correct the problem.

2. You have stated that you hope that the instructor would log on tho this thread and that you have no issues with him as you do not know him personally (I am paraphrasing here), but prior to that you explained that you would never consider attending a class where this instructor was in charge? ??

3. I agree that women should be treated as equals, so please do not excuse this entry as from someone that is sexist.

4. Perhaps Neil is close to the truth as to maybe there is a legitimate reason ( and YES there actually may be a legitimate reason for the classes being structured and named the way they were), for example in my area we have a Woodcrafter that has classes which I have found change from one month to the next. Is it possible that a customer or more has actually requested separation ? I am not going to try to list any more but that in my estimation is a legitimate reason, if the classes were to be taught together the next time.

This is a divisive topic….maybe even more so here in a world that for a very very very long time was dominated and to some extent only by males ( obviously not LJ's, but rather the tradesman world).

My personal opinion for what it is worth is that someone needs to contact the store either in person or by telephone and get their side (reasoning) of this.


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## Sawdust4Blood (Feb 16, 2010)

Lisa,
Sadly there are asses everywhere. Personally I think that you should just go ahead and sign up for any class you want to take and make them try and keep you out.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I have to say I agree with Neil and Mike about finding the reason for the titles prior to condemning the company or instructor. That may not have been clear when I said my wife is definitely one who would prefer a women's class.

I must say I have taken a bit of a sexist view of doctors since being OD on Topamax. I see women drs now. At least they will listen to the patient rather than opening the exam door with preconceived diagnosis based on the reason for the visit.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Greg & Lisa, Ain't gonna happen in Seattle in the 21st Century ;-)


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## redryder (Nov 28, 2009)

Lisa is right that Seattle is a VERY liberated city. They are usually as PC as it comes. I've been in that store and I was helped by two knowledgable women about some items I wanted to buy. One of the women told me she was the owner when we were discussing a return I got thru the mail. Lets organize a march on the store. I won't be able to get my wife to go because she thinks woodworking is for guys. Sounds like many on this thread have spouses who feel the same. No one should be put in an uncomfortable position. That goes for the insiders as well as the outsiders. The guys in the woodworking class should be asked how they feel about bringing women in the class. I'll bet that a BIG majority would think it was great. It might help business. The owner needs to be heard about the reason for the two seperate postlings that are tuning people away…................


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## Misesfan (Mar 12, 2010)

I am a male woodworking neophyte. To be honest, if I put my skills to the test against some of the women I know either personally or from what I have seen on the Internet learning good technique, I would be crushed, and deservedly so. Their skills and knowledge are superior to my own. There is no doubt, in my mind at least, that it does not depend on gender regarding the skill of the craftsman. If anything, given woman's documented superior hand-eye coordination, they probably bring an advantage to the table (saw)...

That being said, and I dont know if the OP is arguing this point, the store owner is well within his right to offer and style courses as he sees fit. The fact that he may disparage based gender is demonstrably ignorant and stupid. For, if his competition were smart, they would seize this obvious opening and exploit it to maximize their profit. But enough of economics. lol

So while I agree that the shop-keep is dumb, he has the right to do this. If he were forced to equitize his classes based on gender by the government, you then introduce a party into this exchange which knows squat other than expanding its own role in our lives. It certainly does not know wood-working. But I guess you could argue that neither does said shop-keep.

If I were you, I would let it roll off my shoulders in the knowledge that the owner of the shop is a demonstrable dufus.


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## AzChiefFan (Apr 16, 2009)

I've read all the post and obviously this is something that we all have opinions on, however I would just like to interject an alternative view of the situation. This all comes down to the initial reaction we each take when reading the class names (which I admit may not have been the best options this person/company could have used) however I would like to point out that this very well could be a sign of the change that is already taking place and this person/company is not trying to purposefully segregate but willingly trying to encourage women to take woodworking classes as well and invite them to learn. Also as was pointed out in previous posts the reasoning for the ad will remain unknown without the other parties' response.
With that being said I find some of the comments unjustified in automatically condemning this person/company as sexist without knowing their side or reasoning for the wording they chose. This very well could be someone simply trying a method of encouraging women to take part in an activity that has historically involved men and may be taking a beating on this forum even though they very well may be trying to initiate the same change you are looking for!!!


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## LateNightOwl (Aug 13, 2009)

Change your perspective a little and go back a few years. 
What if the flyer advertised Woodworking 101 *FOR WHITES* and Wood Therapy *FOR *****************************************?

Would you all be using the same logic, saying the same things? They are different, they learn differently, maybe they want it that way, maybe they are uncomfortable because there might be an aggressive jerk in the class, find out the reason for the separate classes, the shop owner might be trying to make them feel more comfortable, they should just let roll off their shoulders because the guy is an ass, sign up for it anyway, they would probably be glad to have you…

Doesn't make it true or right when it is racism. Saying the same things about women is demeaning and does not make it true or right. And no, it probably will not change in my lifetime, but it would be nice if people were at least aware.

Rest in Peace Dr. Dorothy Height


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## Michael121 (Jun 30, 2008)

Lisa…the problem is US. Each individual, we are biased, we offend others even unintentionally. Life is not perfect neither are people.

Life is way too short to let this bother you this much. You mentioned "liberal city" that means nothing.

Take a step back and look closely at self proclaimed "liberals" they are the most closed minded people there are. There are all female colleges. How many all male schools? Watch a TV commercial the husbands are stupid. Women's groups scream equality, such as women in combat, but during Desert Storm a female pilot was shot down, or during Iraq Jessica Lynch, and we were supposed to act differently in Jessica Lynch's case we did, they went in and got her. In Israel women are not in combat but they teach male soldiers on the gun ranges. Their experience is that the men do better all trying to impress the female instuctors.

Men and women ARE different. I like a women who can ride a motorcycle, who is willing and able to shoot a gun. Who will grab a power tool, etc… But as Autumn said, I can put up drywall and reach the top and put in a screw, my wife cannot without stripping the head or driving the drill bit into the drywall when she slips.

Physical differences are real, can't change that. The real power is the brain. Spending too much time and energy worrying about what others think just makes your life miserable. Either the instructor is doing so out of personal experience or he's a pig. Either way, it is good to mention and debate about, but life is way too busy to get ulcers over stuff like this.


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## ellen35 (Jan 1, 2009)

Lets not start comparing exercise classes to woodworking classes…PLEASE!
Single gender exercise classes are where people go to sweat and dress as they please. I for one would not want someone oogling me in an exercise class. One of my male coffee buddies likes going to his all male gym because he can walk around with it all (ahem!) hanging out, as he says. Woodworking and other skill building classes are different. Woodworking is where we go to learn new techniques, use new tools, see demonstrations and learn from each other ABOUT WOODWORKING! This is gender neutral.
I think Mary Anne hit it on the head… 
Sometimes I think it is just that some men (not all as we can see here) are more comfortable learning a "women's" activity (like sewing, knitting, etc) with other men only. I think that gets extrapolated to women and woodworking. A true woodworker is a woodworker at heart and doesn't get caught up in gender issues in the shop (except for those pink tools… yeech!!)
Thanks to all the wonderful woodworkers who make up this site… it is clear nearly everyone has tried to be thoughtful in their responses. This has been an interesting forum topic to follow. 
Ellen


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## LateNightOwl (Aug 13, 2009)

Mike,

Yes, men and women are physically different and we do things differently, but it does not mean women are inherently not capable. I have no doubt that your wife is capable of driving a drywall screw without stripping it or punching through the drywall if Autumn, or I -or you- taught her how.

The ridiculous assumption and acceptance (by men and women) that women are not capable of doing these sorts of simple tasks is an issue I've run up against my entire life. I never wanted special treatment or recognition, just the choice to do what I knew I could do.


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## mtkate (Apr 18, 2009)

I can ride a motorcycle (have had 4 bikes)
I can shoot a gun (went to a range to get the experience)
I love to grab power tools (that's what SHE said!)
I can put up drywall by myself and I am not the tallest person
I can drive a screw without stripping it

There are some things I can't do, but that's due to a serious back accident.


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## Taigert (Nov 20, 2007)

Some good points have been made in this thread. A lot of food for thought.

I think you will find that these courses and the titles go back to Woodcrafts Corprate office, not every store offers them but a lot do. So it would be interesting to see what Corprate has to say about the way they market their programs.


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## cranbrook2 (May 28, 2006)

I don,t see anyone complaining about a woodworking site just for women . http://www.womeninwoodworking.com/

If men did that we would be living in the doghouse )


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## North40 (Oct 17, 2007)

Okay, I finally went and looked, and the Woodcraft in question is currently offering something like 40 other classes that don't mention gender, including everything from "Woodworking for the Novice" to "Build an Acoustic Guitar". Presumably women and men are encouraged to take those classes. In addition, there are three levels of classes "for women," and with how often those classes are offered I imagine they are popular (why they are called "Sawdust Therapy" is beyond me, and I recognize that the title could be insulting). And there is a class called "Basic Woodworking - An Intro for Men" which is offered a few times.

So why are we upset? Here's 40 co-ed classes you are welcome to take, and if you are uncomfortable with a co-ed setting, there are some classes where you don't have to deal with that issue.

And even though ellen35 says you can't compare it to a gym or workout class, I think it just proves the point. Plenty of women are comfortable at a co-ed gym, and they go there. Other women are not, and prefer to be in a women-only situation. Just because some women are comfortable at a co-ed gym does not mean you should be. Just because you are comfortable in a co-ed woodworking class does not mean all women should be. What we should do is try to accomodate everyone so they can have an enjoyable learning (or exersizing) experience.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

This whole discussion brings to mind the reason I believe human conflict exists even when people have the best intentions:

Sometimes the "golden rule" doesn't cut it.

Think about it… We all tend to believe that if we treat others the way *we* want to be treated, everyone will get along. In reality, though, sometimes people just disagree on how they want to be treated. I find this especially true with male-female issues.

Looking back on my 30 years of marriage, I can say that I have often found myself in the situation of trying to do what I thought my wife would want me to do, or making a decision based on what I would want her to do if the situation was reversed, only to discover later that I made the absolute wrong choice, in her opinion. And… I know she can say the same thing about me.

When I see people treated as "less than" by their fellow human beings, that make me angry. But I'm also sensitive about people calling other people "sexist" based on their own personal feelings. Not everyone agrees on every single issue as to what is sexist and what isn't.

A man telling a "dumb blonde" joke obviously may qualify as sexist behavior to some of you. I assume then, that the same people would consider a woman telling a joke about a man thinking with his privates to be sexist behavior also. But to me, it really depends on whether the person who tells one of those jokes would also laugh at the other. Maybe making fun of our respective stereotypes is just humorous to some people…. male and female.

All I'm saying (and it's been said already in different ways) is that it's probably not fair to label people or their behavior "sexist" unless you really know what's in their hearts.


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## manilaboy (Aug 17, 2007)

Woodworking 101 FOR MEN, offered only to men. And Wood Therapy III offered only to women.

I may get flamed but I find the course titles innocent. Are we not just overeacting? There are two course offerings one for men and another for women. That should balance it out. My point is we are reading too much between the lines. We are adding color where there might be none intended. I might never know the real reason behind the course titles. Until such time, I will be keeping my opinion to myself if ever there is one.


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## BarbS (Mar 20, 2007)

Thank you, Peter O, for finally "checking this out." I was suspicious the big franchise stores were only offering those two choices in the first place, but being given no leads as to what we were talking about made it a bit difficult. And Seattle is a place rife with woodworking education opportunities, if one only looks. Private teachers are willing to instruct all over the Puget Sound area. The thing is, Lisa, what you've done here is basically put a slur on the whole woodworking community and then said, "Don't solve my problem." That strikes a woodworker as pretty unrealistic. I'm 60 years old now, and did go through the thing of being refused a shop class, in 1965 for heavens' sake, in high school. That situation turned around within a few years of that, and boys were required to take home-ec as well as all girls some shop class, so it was fixed long ago. Since then, I've never met a more welcoming, generous and kind group of people than woodworkers, and the explosion of available information for learning the skills needed has been wonderful in recent years. So, frankly, I just don't have a bad, sexist, feminist outrage story to share with you. Oh, and that womeninwoodworking site, sponsored by Rockler Hardware? I was a contributing editor for a long time. It has seriously 'died on the vine' due to lack of participation, but Rockler still maintains it, waiting patiently for any women uncomfortable discussing their hobby with the opposite sex, to show up and ask any questions they'd like. A full staff is ready and willing to assist.


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## Eli (Mar 3, 2010)

Mary Anne,

Why are those questions not valid about race? Is it bad that men and women are being given an opportunity to work within a possible comfort zone? I realize that people should be pushed to progress, but, to me, it's unrealistic to ask that every minute of every day.

Eli


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

When you consider the egregious status of women in other countries and cultures….....


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## stevenmadden (Dec 10, 2009)

barbs,

Best post ever…thank you.

Steve


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

And speaking of poopiekat's comment, there is something else I thought about last night, Lisa.

For those who think that scantily-clad product models are possibly being victimized or exploited in some way, and refuse to buy products from those advertisers, here is a question to ask yourselves:

Who do you think is being abused to a greater degree….. a bikini-clad woman in a U.S. nationwide print advertising campaign (who probably made a good bit of money for not too much work), or the Malaysian worker putting in 12 hour days in awful conditions to manufacture all those clothes hanging in your closet?

If your stand against the companies using models is really based on your concern for the women, wouldn't your efforts be better spent in an area where the abuse is clearly worse?


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## historicturner (Apr 30, 2010)

Lisa, the situation you described in absolutely absurd, as have been some of the comments. I guess I shouldn't be surprised at how quickly and strongly people here have worked to shift the topic, mostly out of fear and guilt I imagine. Odd, I don't see too many negative comments when a woman like Ruby Cler teaches a class at a wood show. Maybe it's because she is such a great turner (or perhaps because she is such a world class shot with a rifle).

Discrimination as you presented the situation is stupid, especially when it is against females who, as a group have better eye/hand coordination than men.

Just learn what you can where you can.


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## LisaC (Oct 10, 2009)

You'll have to pardon me because it's early in the morning, and I'm not articulate early in the morning… but I will give it a try.

This forum thread has been amazing! It's really incredible to see so many differing view points and opinions come together and be heard. Some are supportive of my inquiry, some are decidedly not.

I apologize if I don't respond to each person individually. 80 contributors are a lot of people to address. Also, a few of the questions can be answered by looking at my initial posts. So, I don't feel a need to really go back and reiterate it.

I just want to make a few things clear

NO. There is no co-ed introductory class for woodworking offered at Woodcraft 307 that will be offered within the next month. There also is not an introductory woodworking class (like that offered for men) at the same time for women (or one called 101 for Women either… we get Sawdust Therapy). That was a troublesome point I tried to highlight. Also the NAMES were concerning.

There are not some 40 classes being offered in this quarter or available through the flier that inspired me to open this discussion. There are about 10. The classes on the website show past present and future classes (and classes in session that you cannot join).

I did point out direct from my initial post that there were OTHER classes held by OTHER instructors with no gender qualifying clause, and allowed for the possibility that idea of the gender aligned classes could have been the project-child of one instructor and implied that it may not be representative of the store's dominant policy about workshops… and it clearly isn't. There are only 2 segregated classes that I was aware of… but the one Woodworking for Men was a very important introductory classes with no other obvious option available to a person seeking an introduction to woodworking.

The communication email I have used is the one suggested by them to contact them regarding class questions and enrollment. Sending two emails… my initial email, and my follow up email within the past week is enough for me. If they choose not to respond, I'm OK with that. (FOR THE RECORD… I don't want this class personally.) But thanks to everyone who encouraged me to sign up anyway.

Each person here is responsible for his/her own words and impressions. Some of you chose to go to different places than what had initially intended with my personal essay about gender in trades and craft. The direction from which each of you decided to respond to my share are REFLECTION of what YOU find important and I think this might be good to think about. Because as you can see… not everybody came at this from the same direction. We see all kinds of view points and all of them have some merit based on experience, personal culture, and more.

I am glad that so many of us were able to refrain from personal attacks an keep a civil tone. Thank you for that.

Lastly, it saddens me that Barb (or anyone else) would try to shame me for putting a "slur" on the entire woodworking community by asking for discussion. That is just flat out untrue and hurtful. I would like an apology. I never implied that all things were one way, all people were one way, or all experiences would be the same, intended to show it, nor do I believe that it would turn out like that. There's problems… yes, and we can talk about them in open and it should be OK.

Don't run me through the dirt just because this thread is popular and you don't agree with what 80 posters have chosen to make portions their own individual focus of. This is not wrong, or horrible, or even remotely disgraceful. This is free discussion. Shame? Shame on yourself.

Of course, I know many wonderful people who are helpful, kind, generous with their time and they reside both here and in my neighborhood. I also don't need any of you to solve any specific problem posed by my personal experience. But thank you for being interested and ready to help, that's amazing just by itself. Each responding person made a choice individually to focus (or not) on the store (which I did not intend to become the core of the discussion). If you choose to engage them, this is your choice and is not my wish. This is my local store and as others have brought up… students may have asked for this class.

In principle, I still would not take a gender segregated class unless I were getting naked, or it had something to do with my reproductive health. I feel this is my choice, and I do not claim to judge any other person who would or would not do the same thing. I'm not judging women who wish to take segregated classes… I disagree with it being a good choice for me, and I question the validity of the need for them, and many other things… but I would not disparage an individual person for making a choice that did not do me direct harm or infringe on my personal liberties. If it inspires anyone to think about whether taking a gender-based class is a necessary thing and helpful of the advancement of women in trades… GOOD! And they are welcome to make up their own mind about it too. I don't need to be agreed with.

Questioning and judging are not the same thing. This means that regardless of how wonderful this instructor might be or how well intention he might be… I don't agree with the need for a segregated class and vote against it with my money and my words.

And that's really all I have to say about it… and all I'm willing to accept responsibility for.

Anyway. I have work in 5 minutes… and this will also be my last post on this message thread. I wish everyone well. And I do deeply care about all people getting a fair shake regardless of gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation, or anything else. I just believe there are some things that we as a society need to let go of… and segregation of the sexes in education is one of them.

Be well, and be kind.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

"Discrimination as you presented the situation is stupid, especially when it is against females who, as a group have better eye/hand coordination than men."

I think you just did … what many of the lady posters, here, are objecting to.

Positive stereotypes are … stereotypes, nonetheless.

I'll say it … and say it … and say it, again:

What if it was the WOMEN who ASKED for separate classes ?

It's sure possible.

If I didn't know, I guess I wouldn't be so eager to invite egg on my face.

Just me. Your mileage may vary.


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## DerekL (Aug 18, 2008)

@Mary Anne: "the degrading jokes about women still show up, disparaging (haha) remarks about "the wife" are common"

I wonder if you'd go to the soapmaker's and candlemaker's and sewing forums and try to get them to tone down the degrading jokes about men and disparaging comments about "the husband". Ditto for the scrapbooking stores. Or the male butcher who takes me seriously when I get picky about a cut of meat, and his female coworker who routinely dismisses me.

@CharlieM1958: "For those who think that scantily-clad product models are possibly being victimized or exploited in some way, and refuse to buy products from those advertisers, here is a question to ask yourselves"

When women start complaining about men being sexualized in advertising, I'll take them seriously. That it's done much less to men than women doesn't change the fact that it does happen, and should be equally repugnant, but you'll almost never hear anyone of either gender speak out against it.

I have this odd idea that equality means just that - equality. If you aren't fighting for equal treatment for *both* sides - then you're fighting for bias. You're part of the problem, not part of the solution.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

"*Some of you chose to go to different places than what had initially intended with my personal essay about gender in trades and craft. The direction from which each of you decided to respond to my share are REFLECTION of what YOU find important and I think this might be good to think about.*"

I would have to disagree with the statement above. I went back and re-read the original post and scanned through all the replies again. I didn't see a single comment that didn't speak directly to issues raised in the OP.

Nor do I see a reason for Barb to apologize for saying you put a "slur" on the entire woodworking community, when she was obviously responding to this statement:

"*However, sexism is still alive and very well in the woodworking community. Even here throughout the forums I see sexist stuff that bothers me too.*"

I'm not saying there is no sexism in woodworking, or even in this forum. But you put your opinion out there, and Barb responded with hers. I didn't see it as an attempt to shame you in any way.


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## FJDIII (Dec 20, 2007)

Lisa,

ANY woodworker showing up or requesting to participate in a class should be abliged unless there is some prerequisite for the class, and I'm not talking having a sex change either!


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## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

Talk about drama. No* Neil* I am not going to PM you any porn but thanks for asking. This whole can of ********************te started because* Grizzman* was upset about a picture of a women in a swim suit. LOL, the picture had been on this forum for months before he threw a fit about it. Now I'm being accused of PM'ing porn to people  I don't think that's even possible on this website *Neil* and I sure as heck don't see a women in a swim suit as porn. That's straight out of the 1920's or so isn't it?

As far as your concerns* Lisa* and thinking pinups and tool girl models, women in car ads and so on is exploiting all of those poor women I think you should open your eyes to the real world and grow up a bit. Personally I think your acting. And yes, I have several pictures of women in swim suits and tight tops in my shop and I don't have sexual fantasies concerning any of them. I have never been one to post naked pictures of women on the Net or hang them on my walls but I sure as heck enjoy seeing the beauty of females on a daily basis. You ought to see how spoiled I keep my wife out of appreciation for who she is and what she does. Talk about drama, maybe you should form a female support group to help you cope with men and woodworking.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

We all look at every thing or situation with our personal biases, like it or not. One thing I have noticed watching people in the last 60 some years is everyone tends to make decisions from their own summation of life experiences. That is what develops our perspective and bias.

I looked at the site too and saw all the other classes offered without any mention of gender. I also noticed these were limited to 2- 5 people. It should be obvious these classes are very personalized.

I guess what I get most form this thread is a reinforcement of "Don't judge a book by its cover."

The world has definitely changed since the 60's. I didn't know of marijuana or drugs until I came to Seattle. My little sister graduated from the same high school 4 years later and they were everywhere.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I just thought of an individual who illustrates what I said very well. When I first met him, he would ask, "How do I know that is true?" every time I told him something. As I got to know him better, I realized he was a habitual, if not congenital, liar. Everything he said had some sort of "spin" on it. He never told the whole truth, nothing but the truth. Suppose that is why he questions everything, everything he says is questionable.

I have always been too trusting. I never doubt anything I'm told unless I have a good reason to doubt it. Of course, honesty and unconditional trust in business can be a definite detriment. My dad told me, honest people are usually gullible and easily taken. I have definitely proven that ;-(


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## Blake (Oct 17, 2007)

Interesting topic.

I ended up taking a lot of anthropology and cultural anthropology classes in college. We spent a great length of time discussing the evolution of human emotions, the REAL differences between men and women, and where those differences come from (nurture vs. nature).

Bottom line, there are REAL, innate biological differences in the brain chemistry of men and women. And on top of that these differences are often reinforced (for better or worse) by outside influences as we grow up (parents, teachers, roll models, media, culture, etc.).

One example of this has been brought up dozens of times in this thread… men tend to like "oogling" at pictures of women. For whatever reason throughout the evolution of primates, modern day males "tend" to be more VISUALLY stimulated, and females "tend" to be more verbally and emotionally stimulated. If you research statistics on men vs. women seeking visual pornography and romance novels, (both of which are often done out of sight of others to judge) they will reflect these trends. And then comes the "nurture" part: what the marketing industry has learned is that SEX SELLS, and therefore exploits the stereotype.

Having said this, there is are NO ABSOLUTES. In other words, if most men tend to be [whatever] most of the time, many men can also not be [whatever] and many women can be [whatever]. These differences are caused by the randomness that is a product of sexual reproduction, chaos theory, and of course, the "nurture" aspect (how you were raised.)

Its like throwing darts at a dart board. Try to hit the left side of the board. Most of the time you will. But many times you will hit the right side and everything in-between. This is partially due to randomness and partially due to how the wind blows.

This is why stereotypes exist in the first place. But they are always an over-simplification, and as humans in the 21st century the mature thing to do is realize that stereotypes tend to hurt and exclude people by leaving out the "exceptions" and many shades of grey.

For the same reasons as above…

 There ARE more male woodworkers than female woodworkers
 There are more male tradespeople than female tradespeople
 There are many extremely talented female woodworkers and tradespeople
 There are many extremely talented male knitters
 There are a LOT of men who couldn't learn to pound a nail to save there lives

My opinion about the separated men's/women's woodworking classes…

 Its in extremely poor taste (especially the names)
 It is offensive even to me
 A men's only woodworking class doesn't sound very appealing anyway

I agree with *Neil* that its POSSIBLE that the women asked for a separate class but I agree with *Ellen* that its not likely. At my gym there is a room full of treadmills JUST for women (but no special room for men) because they have asked for it over the years. However, I suspect that the reasons are very different. I think it is much more likely that the decision for a separate woodworking class was a MARKETING ATTEMPT.

In fact, it may not have been the instructors idea at all. It may have been the administrations attempt to attract more students. "Maybe more women will enroll if we make them feel special, make them feel like they don't have to compete with the men, and call it therapeutic." Again, I am not saying this is right, just that it is quite possibly their miss-guided line of logic. Just like "sex sells," stereotypes sell too, even though they piss people off and hurt people. Its a numbers game for marketers.

But I think you should make sure your voice gets heard. You said you don't want to be a bully, but its important to make a little noise when this kind of thing happens. Its not right and shouldn't be tolerated. If you email them and don't get a response, tactfully take it to the next level. You deserve to be acknowledged and treated with more respect.

Good luck and happy woodworking.


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## cranbrook2 (May 28, 2006)

I miss the good old days when men acted like men and women acted like women  
No wonder this world is so screwed up today .


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## EPJartisan (Nov 4, 2009)

I am scared to post on this, but sometimes am a glutton for punishment.. still… please don't bash me for this. I am a gay woodworker. The gender issue for me is like a double punch in the gut. It is really hard going to a class when you hear one guy ask another.. if they are a f*gg*t and to put some force into it. I made a huge mistake when I first joined LJS of discussing this. I was asked by several times here why I want to be singled out.. why i want to separate myself by admitting I was gay. Well.. I have sat at lumber distributers for hours just to get plywood, while guys walked past mumbling insults around me.. and making sure I can hear them. I am short, I smile a lot, I prefer to be smarter than intimidating. I don't have an air of butchness for me to pass as straight. I AM separated because i am always excluded because I am not perceived as "man". I choose this because I grew up in a gang neighborhood.. and I can fight.. I had to fight to win or my life was at stake, but I hated violence and when I went to art college all my friends were women.

I really apologize and regret for the manner in which I worded my last post.. (and this post…) I meant no insult, but MAN was I put in my place last time. It makes me quite afraid, but many of you here have been supportive beyond words. There are times when separation works, and times when it doesn't. I posted many gay men have come to me asking for instruction in a safe place, where they can be themselves and not be subjected to words and actions that hurt really deep. Maybe women asked for a separate class, maybe it IS discrimination. At least we are talking about it rather than pretending it doesn't matter. I am sure Abbott is going to call me whiney sicko again.

I would rather take a class for women than for men. Oh and I can cook and sew.. and repair motors and cars. I feel so sorry for straight people who get called lesbians if they are strong.. or gay if they don't match up with gender stereotypes. Though I teach to the GLBT community.. anyone is welcome in my studio.


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## mtkate (Apr 18, 2009)

EPJartisan, very brave of you.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I guess I fail to understand why so many people in this country are insulted all the time. Who takes the side of the women who want a women's woodworking class if those who don't are always insulted, raising h-- and pushing their agenda?


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## DanLyke (Feb 8, 2007)

So I've been thinking about this a bit more, and…

I recently watched a video of Ivan E. Coyote reading "To all the kick-ass beautiful fierce femmes...". Ivan apparently self-identifies as male. I'm guessing that if I were to come across Ivan's body, without cultural context, I'd say biologically female, but I'm happy to interact with Ivan as culturally male.

So to Eric P. Jorgenson's point above, what if (and I'm not saying it is or isn't, this is mean to be hypothetical) that "for men" class was referring to the cultural identification? Is it so bad to use that as a shorthand for "before we fire up the chainsaw to cut the 2×4s for cinder block bookshelves, we're going to fit it with nitrous oxide injectors and a turbocharger" in Tim "The Toolman" Taylor style?

Because at some point, after we've gotten past the outright discrimination, some of those identities are convenient. A very stereotypically gay man at a place I once worked described me as "pretty butch", which maybe is a less loaded term than "man" but still says I'm going to be happier sliding through the mud than getting a mani-pedi.

I while back I made a goof on my router table that caused a piece of maple to knock a dent in the garage door. My response was "Hey, I need to do that again for video!". My partner (who also happens to be my wife, but I don't usually mention that unless I'm quoting her saying things like "and we're not leaving this store without a planer")'s response was "don't do that!" Says to me that, whether it's biological or cultural, there is a difference, and maybe the "101 for Men"'s response is "That could be dangerous, let's do it safely so we can see what happens, 'cause destruction is cool!" and the "Wood Therapy" response is "that's dangerous, don't do it."

Labels aside, is respecting those different styles a bad way to divvy up classes? In San Francisco's Castro, maybe you'd label those two groups "bears" and "queens" and nobody'd raise an eyebrow.

[Addendum & Edit: I take it back, on the Ivan E. Coyote the pronoun used is "She". I don't particularly care, though, and I don't think it reduces my point much.]


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## mtkate (Apr 18, 2009)

TopamaxSurvivor re: "I guess I fail to understand why so many people in this country are insulted all the time.".... I think it has something to do with your right to *bare* arms… something like that…. LOL!


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

For Eric: Anyone who would bash you for that post is an idiot, IMO. I'm sorry I missed your original post…. I would have definitely jumped in to give you some support.


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## mike85215 (Oct 16, 2009)

Lisa you will probably never realize it but throughout this entire thread each of your comments have been judgmental and the original post was. In your mind you feel justified because you see sexism. You really did not treat the woodcraft store fairly, and quite frankly if I were you I doubt if I could ever enter that store again.
The simple statement that you made stating you had no intention or desire of even taking the class demonstrates that your desire was to incite.
I wonder how many others do the same thing.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

Many years ago I worked for a architectural interiors place that did nothing but custom, high-end work. This was during the mid-70's, when there was a Federal program called CETA, where the government would subsidize the salaries of trainees. The place hired two young women, and one of them was loaded for bear whenever some perceived inequity was observed…or even discussed. She'd climb onto her bully pulpit and rage off at us white blue-collar guys as if WE were at fault for all of histories great gender injustices in the world. It was impossible to work near her. THEN…if we didn't open the door for, or lift some heavy object for her…we were pigs. I began to realize that her issue was not one of feminist mantra, but of a simple personality disorder. It was simply her way of gaining attention and exacting some level of control over everyone. The other female? A shy, quiet woman, who wore big flannel shirts, who quietly learned, practiced her skills, and engaged all of us in conversations where she could absorb knowledge and become the artisan she aspired to be. She became a mentor to others in her G/L community, and made a difference in the lives of others. Aye, there is a difference. Lisa, are you walking the walk, or simply talking the talk? Tell us what you've done to make a difference, because a dustup in a LJ forum goes nowhere at the end of the day.


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## kolwdwrkr (Jul 27, 2008)




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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

mtkate, I not quite following you. *???*


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## PatrickB (Apr 30, 2010)

I have no idea why a person would feel the need to post that video. I am actually pretty shocked, I would not want my 7 yr. old son to see that.So many thoughts, feelings, and attitudes have been expressed in this discussion. I was not a member until 20 minutes ago and well, I have 2 cents worth too, although most times I am better off keeping to myself.
FACT: Men are normally stronger than women.
FACT: Women are generally more flexible.
So what's that prove? Nothing at all, ALL people are different, none are the exact same. This is all I care about, If you have something to teach me that I don't know but want to learn I could care less if your gay, a women, or a man. The important thing for me is learning. If I have to learn from an as#$%^e then I suck it up. To become offended by something that was written for a store "class" that is not even being considered is silly. I am a recovering crackhead and alcoholic. Who cares? Will someone take offense at me writing that? Lisa, all people have different life experiences, that's what makes us, us. I would not let something that "small" have that much space in my head. I have enough problems remembering my own name sometimes. Dead brain cells, that's the price I payed. Glad you dumped the sex trade job and I have mixed feelings on that subject (the sex trades I mean). Woodworking needs you more than the sex trades do that's for sure. I have seen some answers that are though provoking and some that well…never mind. I have no clever little tag line for my signature because I am not clever.


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## idahosawdust (Apr 25, 2010)

This is an interesting thread in a predominately male woodworking site. Thank you Lisa for posting. Having worked in the fishing industry as a charter boat fishermen. I had the opportunity to teach many people how to fish for the first time. I will tell you that i could teach women the art of fishing faster and easier than most men by far. I had women out fishing their husbands (many who had fished before) shortly after starting the trip. I love the idea that most women listen and pay attention to what they are learning. I have never taught woodworking but have been in shop classes where the women are much safer and produce finer projects than most that "knew" how to woodwork. It doesn't matter where this happened. whether it is on an ocean charter boat, a wood shop, or in the classroom women should be afforded the opportunity to learn what ever and how ever. There is no room in our society for sexism or racism.

Ty


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## Milo (Apr 24, 2009)

Lisa,

Just one thought. In my world I'm surrounded by women. Wife and four daughters. If a local woodworking store did this I'd ride thier ass like mange on a coyote. People need to know who is doing this kind of thing so astion can be taken. It's not a private club or private organization where gender specific rules can be applied. It's a publicly accessable store. If they aren't slapped down now, they may never be.

And god help the poor kid that honks his horn outside MY house to pick up one of my daughters for a date. Knock on the door first time, every time. oops, off topic….


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## TheDane (May 15, 2008)

I'm with Milo … gender has nothing whatever to do with someone's ability to do woodworking.

I have two daughters who are both like my wife … strong, indepenant women. I pity the fool that tells one of them they can't do something because they are female.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

My Lil Sis' last boyfriend made the mistake of teling her she was building retaining wall in her garden the wrong way )


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## Sawdust2 (Mar 18, 2007)

Good looking women and woodworking don't mix?
Women are not knowledgeable about woodworking?
You guys ever see Jodi Marks? Advertises for Fein Multmaster and a few other tools.
Had a TV show with Pat (forget his name) and is a licensed contractor.
Like most women I like to be around she is attractive, knowlegeable, skillful and just plain fun to know.

Lee


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

I'll be the first to say - I don't have all the answers - as many have said we all see issues through our own eyes and experiences and no one can feel the way someone else does.

I've taken a ton of WW classes and generally I am the only woman in the class. I've also taught WW classes at Woodcraft. Those classes have been "women only" classes and were advertised as such. Why? Because I didn't want to teach men. Having taken many classes where I was the only woman I knew how it felt to be looked down on or treated differently than the men because I was a woman. It happened more than once that a man who knew little to nothing about woodworking would try to tell me what to do. As someone said earlier on this thread the instructors are not generally equipped to manage the personalities and issues between the sexes - they want to teach woodworking. That is how I felt, I preferred to teach women only so I did not have to deal with those issues.

Since I've been taking so many classes I've learned to stand up for myself and not allow anyone to bully more or try to intimidate me. Not every woman, or man, is capable of that.

I'm not sure I could teach a co-ed WW class because I'm not sure I'd be able to manage the feelings of all the students.

In the long run the classes that are the original subject of this post may have been requested by customers. I can see where some men would not feel comfortable with women in their classes. I can see where a man who is just starting WW would not want to show his inability or lack of knowledge of the subject in front of a woman - even a woman he'd probably never see again. Men have feelings too. Some women are not comfortable learning a typically male oriented skill with men so why is it that men could not feel the same way.

I think it's brilliant to offer men only classes. Think about it, there are a lot of men who have never had the opportunity to learn the basic crafts. I know lots of men who could not drive a nail, or saw a straight line if their lives depended on it. These same men have the same stereotypes taught to them over the years - they should know this stuff - why don't you-you must be less of a man because you don't. I can see where some men would be uncomfortable trying to learn a male oriented craft with women around.

Whether or not the classes were titled or advertised in the most prudent manner is not for me to say, but I find no fault in a private business offering segregated classes.

Just my two cents - spend it wisely.


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## MyFathersSon (Apr 30, 2009)

Betsy-
Thank you-Couldnt have said it better myself-
And if I had-it would have just been one more sexest man rationalizing.

Your next to last line says it all-
This is a private business and has (or should have) every right to offer or not offer whatever classes it wants to and to market them/restrict to whoever they want to.
To assume that just because someone chooses to offer men a venue to study with other men-and women to do so with other women--- or that some men and women avail themselves of these venues-they are some kind of evil bigots-To me says more about the person jumping to that conclusion than it does about the object of their ire.
By that logic-my female friends who enjoy an occassional 'girls night out' with their gal-pals-no men allowed-or my grandmother who hosted Tupperware parties attended only by women-- were bitter man haters--
and I can assure you neither were.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Betsy, thanks for your perspective.

Men and women *should* be able to learn together comfortably, no matter the subject. But, as you pointed out, that's just not always the case in real life.


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## cranbrook2 (May 28, 2006)

Right on Betsy !! 
Betsy for President !!!


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## JimArnoldChess (Mar 15, 2010)

The only 'boob' I see in this thread is that instructor.


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## cranbrook2 (May 28, 2006)

Call me crazy but isn,t THIS discrimination against men ?? http://www.womeninwoodworking.com/


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## BarbS (Mar 20, 2007)

John, actually the WomenInWoodworking website has always welcomed input from men, and frankly they have been the original problem-solvers and helpmates for almost every question presented there. It was designed as a site for women who needed to ask questions within a 'comfort zone', and arguments have raged on it as to 'keeping it pure,' or something, but a few very generous male souls have persisted in providing answers to repeated questions from novice woodworkers seeking advice.


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Hummm - Betsy for President-- now that's a thought! NOT!! - But thanks for the kudo's anyway John.

I applaud Rockler for keeping the Womeninwoodworking site going despite it's slow take off. I'm not sure why it's not picked up. Perhaps it's women like myself that find trying to keep up with more than one site hard to do, or maybe it's just not been put out in the mainstream enough for women to know it's there.

Barb - it sounds like you are very involved in the site so maybe you could suggest to Rockler that they advertise it a bit more, say here on LJ.

When it is all said and done what *should* be and what *is* will always have a tone of inequality, injustice or discrimination in it to someone. We all see things through a different eye so we should all be respectful adults and realize that once we come to the realization that we all need something a little different than the next person we'll all be better off. We don't need politically correct titles or labels, we need simply for people to understand that we are all human beings who are different - buy yet all the same.

When you become involved in a debate such as this - try this little exercise. Take the other person's side. In other words argue for that person to whom you disagree and see if you can possibly see where they are coming from. I'm not saying not to voice YOUR opinion on this site or any other, but what I suggest is simply to take a few minutes to argue, to yourself, the other person's point of view - it may help you in your own points. It's like President Obama said in his graduation address at MSU this past week - if you read only the New York Times, that is your only perspective, spend some time reading the Wall Street Journal to get the other side of things - you might be surprised that you may actually agreed with the *other side* on a few points here and there.

Well - back to the shop!


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## Padre (Nov 5, 2008)

I wasn't going to, but…............... but I need to ramble.

An aside: Grizzman is a good man. He is very helpful to people on this site, and is always willing to offer a helping hand. To see him lionized openly while the identity of a commercial store was (attempted) protected in my mind is unjust and uncalled for. IMHO pm's should be kept private.

Second, why do we immediately cry "discrimination" or "prejudice" when a women's only or men's only club, class or other type organization is offered? If it was a social justice issue, then I would understand. But we are talking about a beginners woodworking class. I see no need to get up in anyone's face because it is or was a men's only class. Just like I wouldn't mind if it were for women only.

We have Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, YMCA, YWCA, hair dye "for men only", women's only lectures and symposiums, colleges offer women's studies (but not men's studies), and on and on. Question: So why did the young woman sue the Boy Scouts to join? Should the Boy Scouts get all hot and bothered because they can't sell Boy Scout cookies?

People are people. In my lifetime I have come to realize that a man with money and power is usually a jerk. And equally so, a woman with money and power is usually a jerk.

Point of interest (maybe only to me): for centuries women have been labeled as "leading men into sin" and "enticers" and "lurers", etc. Much of this comes from a translation of the Bible that wrong. First, in Genesis, the 'first' (Chapter 1, verse 27) story of the creation of man and woman has them being created together, at the same time, equally. The 'second' story (Chapter 2, verses 21-27) of the creation of man and woman has the more widely known and told version of man first and woman from man's rib. This creates the first level of "male domination." Then the second part of this story is that the woman was beguiled by the serpent (not snake) and then misled the man. Not so. Read the Greek, read the Hebrew, the line reads "So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate; and she also gave some to her husband, *who was with her, and he ate*." So, he was WITH her and heard the beguiling also, and of his own free will took the fruit (not apple) and ate. Most, but not all, early translations of the Bible left out the "who was with her" and thusly perpetrated discrimination and prejudice. The woman did not beguile him, lure him, mislead him, etc. Yet with these two fundamental misconceptions, centuries of prejudice have been continued.

People are people. I think men and women are different but equal. On one level, women have the abilities and intelligence to do whatever a man does. Period. Yet there are inherent differences between men and women, and we should celebrate these differences, not crucify each other over them and not use them as a means of discrimination, hate and/or prejudice.

Sorry for rambling.


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## LateNightOwl (Aug 13, 2009)

Reading through this conversation again, I see that some people are looking at things the way they are and accepting it as is. Others are speaking of the way they think things ought to be.

I totally get it that some women and some men prefer to be in segregated classes, and segregation apparently works for those who *want* to be segregated. What about those who don't want to be segregated? For example, what about those who want the learning experience of the 101 class rather than the "therapy" offered to women? Separate but not equal.

Betsy, I totally understand your desire to teach 'women only' classes. I spent my life working with men in a "man's world" and I trained a few hundred male apprentices over the years. Goodness, yes, teaching a class for women only would be incredibly more comfortable for me, too. And it would certainly be more comfortable for most men to be taught by another man.

I understand that this is the way it is in the *real world*.

It is all about comfort. But that does not necessarily make it right. Personally, I think it is a sad commentary on our society that men and women need to segregate themselves to be comfortable. Or more to the point, to avoid being uncomfortable. I am uncomfortable with that!

Also, as a lot of people mentioned, we all come at this from the perspective of our own life experiences. If you read my story waaaaay up at the beginning of this conversation, then you know that these issues had a bigger impact in my life than about taking a class or two for my enjoyment. I worked in a traditionally male trade. I didn't want special treatment. I just wanted to do my job! Very few could accept that. I had men coming at me from both sides… men who wanted to protect me and soften things for me because I was a woman, and men who resented my presence as a woman. If I allowed any kind of special treatment from the one side, there was double hell to pay from the other side. Not to mention, *I* would have felt like an impostor if I did anything less than a man doing the same job. That, too, is the real world.

Anyway, though it hardly impacts me personally anymore, I am an idealist, and I will continue to speak for equality and the way I think things ought to be in a more perfect world.


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## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

I'm just fine with equality and I have no problem with women in the shop especially if they are wearing tight jeans. Girls in tight Levi's have always been my favorite but other brands are ok too.


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## GFYS (Nov 23, 2008)

Ugh… as if this thread doesn't illustrate why.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I second Betsy for president!!

Seems the obvious conclusion in this day and age, while there are a few bigots left; bigotry and discrimination is largely in the eye of the beholder. Just as with every other topic of public discourse; 40% will say it is sad the women and men are used in specific titles of WW classes; 40% will say they are glad to know who will be there; 20% will not care unless there is an obvious violation of commonly accepted standards of the time. Then, if there is an issue of worthy debate or needing correction, 15% of the middle with joins the most just cause. 30 years ago 80% would have been on the most popular side. (What happened to the other 5%, they're are still bigots.)

I have watched the electrical trade go from all Caucasian male to the diversification we have today. I dealt with sex discrimination before it was even considered an issue. The first African American journeyman I had came to me a few days after being dispatched to the job to congratulate me. I asked for what. He said treating me like a journeyman. He said I was the first foremen he had ever worked for that didn't ask him if he was some kind of trainee or something. On the other side of coin, a trainee I had could not read a tape measure. How am I supposed to teach him to be an electrician? There are some prerequisites that we do not have time to teach on the jobsite is we are to survive economically.

Putting this complaint into proper perspective, considering where we have come from on these issues, it is really a moot point.

While I see a lot of women working in the trade for the same money as men get in union shops; I never see them doing any of the physically demanding work. Like pulling 500 mcm copper into a 3.5 inch conduit. It weighs 1.5 pounds per foot and is almost 1 inch in diameter, depending on the insulation. Or, bending 1 inch EMT with the commonly used hand bender. Mechanical benders aren't commonly used until you get to 1.25 inch. Is that really equal work if the men have to do all of the hard work? The less demanding tasks reserved for women? A lot of the foremen on these jobs don't want to see anyone over 40. Injustices are in the eye of the beholder; the debate will never stop.


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## cranbrook2 (May 28, 2006)

TopamaxSurvivor for vice president


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## mtkate (Apr 18, 2009)

TopamaxSurvivor - sorry - it was just a bit of levity. I love the "right to bare arms" joke and weave it in where I can. I was taking a tangent, like many of the posts in the thread.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

How about it Betsy, shall we run?

*mtkate* What is the joke? Guess I don't know it.


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## LateNightOwl (Aug 13, 2009)

I hear you, TopamaxSurvivor. When I was in the trade, I made it a point not to wimp out. Maybe I was an idiot, but being the only woman out there, my pride would not allow anyone to be able to say I didn't carry my weight. So I toted my share of cast iron tubs up stairs on my back, wrestled water heaters on to stands, carried 10" fittings (about 75 pounds) up scaffoldings, etc. Then I would go to the gym (co-ed) after work. Women ARE physically different and I'm sure it was harder for me, but it was part of the job.

Like you, I also had mechanically challenged apprentices that had no business being on the job. I remember one guy I got that came from Army Intelligence, smart as a whip, but could not learn how to use the simplest hand tools. I don't think anyone should be given a free ride if they are not able to do the work. But that is just me.


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## BarbS (Mar 20, 2007)

Hi Betsy- interesting to read your viewpoint, having taught so many women in classes. I used to be deeply involved with WomenInWoodworking, and even tried to revive it about a year ago, but I rarely check it now. It just has so little activity that it takes Days to receive an answer on a post, and then it's usually another question. My honest opinion (and that is all it is; I have no data to back this up) is that the early participants and new women with questions are already finding what they need from the male-dominated woodworking websites. We're so generously welcomed and respected elsewhere that the need for the 'women-only' idea died away. I guess it's truly a case of 'mission accomplished'. That site still has great resources, though, and Rockler would like nothing better than to see it active. Frankly, all I have time in a day for, is Wood Central and Lumberjocks.

Mary Anne, I love your sense of humor (raccoon warming your ears.) If we can all keep that in line, all will be well! I admire you for holding your own in the plumbing trade. Whew what a tough job. I have to maintain diesel buses (Hate those greasy things) and that is hard enough for me. My greatest quaking fear is when the chief mechanic calls from 120 miles away and says, "Barb? Are you ready to put on your mechanic's hat again? I'll owe you another lunch, but let me talk you through this.." argh! And I've learned more than I ever wanted to know! Sometimes I truly wish I could bat my pretty eyelashes and get away with that, but sigh, the opportunity never presents itself. I just want to get back into my wood shop. That's my haven.


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## DaleM (Feb 18, 2009)

Abbott, you have truly reached troll status. Your icon and your posts are only to upset the original poster and you have added nothing of value to this conversation. If you ever make it to Northern NY, come pay me a visit please.


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## michelletwo (Feb 22, 2010)

I always agree with women who wear animals on their heads.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

The worst part about women in a traditionally male-dominated trade is having to deal with the men who turn into jerks at the slightest suggestion of bad behavior towards women by other men. These guys immediately put the cape on, and 'rescue' these damsels in distress, which often causes great embarassment on the part of the women who are mature enough not to be offended in the first place. We've seen a few examples of it here, men who think women are too weak to defend themselves and react in anger to other men who express an alternative viewpoint. Human nature, I guess, but it is not *one* world we live in.


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## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

What you guys don't think tight jeans is appropriate attire for a women in a wood shop? I would think Safety First and no loose clothing to get caught in machines. However the gal Lumberjock who posted a couple weeks ago about seeing Asian girls with long loose black hair and high heels working in the shops she has seen was quite worrisome. When I asked her about it she said that "if her long black hair is loose and she is wearing high heels into the shop then she doesn't plan on being in there long". I agreed with her that is probably safer. I also PM'ed her to ask where those shops full of Asian girls with long loose black hair and high heels could be found. When I find out I am going to see if I can sign up for an intermediate all woman's class. Thanks for the great idea, if they discriminate against me because I'm a man I will let you guys know. Be safe and remember it is always better to take off your jewelry before operating shop machinery.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

When Olympic events are no longer categorized by gender, then I will believe that true equality has been accomplished in the world. But as long as different standards of achievement are imposed on each gender, and that attitude continues to cascade downward into every facet of civilization…the issue will perpetuate itself for all time.


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## MyFathersSon (Apr 30, 2009)

I just feel sorry for anyone who has to go through life feeling like they are a victim-seeing every decision someone makes that they disagree with as some kind of attack.
Now-if the government says women (or men or blondes or redheads) can't buy tools - or can't be employed in woodworking - or can't open their own shop or teach their own class --
Yes-I would call that an attack-
But that didn't happen-one private business made a business decision to offer a specific service to a specific group of people - that's all-sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
I live in a neighborhood that over recent years has grown to be predominantly hispanic.
If I go into many businesses-I find it difficult to do business because it is clear that spanish (which I speak very poorly) is the language of choice.
Does this mean they hate me? want to put me down? Feel like I am subhuman?
I doubt it seriously-- 
It simply means that they have chosen to focus on the spanish speaking population-which is their right as private business owners.


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## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

I say for the most part sounds like a drama queen stirring crap up-*Glivingston*

------------------------

Yep, nothing but drama.

Those are really nice girls, Miss Makita and Senorita Makita and they have a schedule. They are going to be in Louisiana May 5th. & 6th. Tool Girls at Tool Shows Lisa and Elizabeth have some great videos at that link.

Now try and say I don't add anything to this thread with my posts, try and top Lisa and Elizabeth with their own tools!!!


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## LateNightOwl (Aug 13, 2009)

Thanks, Barb. If we can't laugh at life now and then, it is hardly worth the trip. I was never worth a darn at the eyelash thing, either. But a raccoon on my head has proven to be an effective tool in the art of persuasion. Dale Carnegie could have gone far had he tried it.

Meanwhile, I think this topic has "jumped the shark."


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Mary Anne, I hate to change the topic again, but didn't you know wearing fur was considered politically incorrect these days?


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## LateNightOwl (Aug 13, 2009)

Well, I don't think she cares, Charlie. I'm sure not going to be the one to try to shave her!


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## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

This thread has gotten me so excited that I'm going to ask my wife to put on her short shorts, come out to the shop and start my chainsaw.


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## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

I've always liked your raccoon icon* Mary Anne!*


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Mary Anne, I really have to admire you being a plumber because I sure would not want to be one;-)) Being a realist, there are some things most women cannot do. I don't remember the stats exactly, but about 20% of women are stronger than the weakest 10% of men.

When I was growing up my dad bought hay from a guy whose wife helped him haul. She loaded, unloaded trucks and drove them with 15 ton of hay on board. They usually had a hired man with them too. I remember him telling my dad the Mrs. was gently setting 85 pound bales on the elevator to load the truck. If you weren't careful, the bale's weight it would kill the engine. They hauled from the dry land farms around Fairfield, Idaho. It was common for it to be well over 100 F when they were loading. The Mrs. got too hot and took her blouse off. A little later she was too hot and took off her bra. The hired guy said he wanted to laugh very bad, but knew he dare not because he couldn't set those bales on the elevator gently like the Mrs. did and he knew she'd kick his a-if he did;-)

If there was one thing I would tell all the youngsters getting into the trades is how hard it is on your body over 40 years. They use a lot of labor saving devices that weren't around in the 60s & 70s which will help a lot. Mechanical lifts are common roughing in all the work in a building now instead of ladder and scaffolding. Battery drills save a lot of injuries from turning screwdrivers for 40 years. But most of the plumbers, sheet metal and electricians will have rotary cuff trouble from working over head all day everyday. It has to be harder on women than it is men. I would imagine it is a lot harder on a 5-2" woman to lift 40# all day than it is a 6'2" gorilla ;-)) Even so, statistically we will live 3 years longer for being active all our lives than office people will.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

PS. Maybe I see things a bit different than most because of all the farm wives I saw doing more field work than their husbands and taking care of the house and kids too!


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

Hell hath no fury then that of a woman scorned

William Shaekspeare ?


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## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

Abbott, you have truly reached troll status. Your icon and your posts are only to upset the original poster and you have added nothing of value to this conversation. If you ever make it to Northern NY, come pay me a visit please.-*DaleM*
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I disagree *Dale*. If you have read my posts I clearly stated in my opinion that I think the original poster is full of drama and not to be taken to seriously. Of course your opinion may differ and that is ok with me *Dale*. I also think that your opinion of my posts means diddly since you either did not read them or you chose to ignore my point of view without even a nod or PM to ask what I may know that you do not know. I also change my icon every few weeks *Dale* and I like the 2010 Makita girls, Lisa and Elizabeth both of whom I have posted a picture of before. You may check my post history to verify that if you wish, so save it. I can also tell you that I do not care if the original poster likes tool girls as much as I do or not at all or somewhere in between, I do not consider that to be relevant to what I do. I do not see why you should either *Dale*.

Now on to your invitation for a visit. I would like to thank you for your graciousness *Dale* but I have no plans to visit the east coast. However you are certainly welcome to come to my home and shop for the visit you would like if you have plans to travel to the west coast. I would be happy to pick you up at the airport in Portland, Oregon and transport you over the mountains to my home where you would find a lovely bedroom suite available for yourself and wife/girlfriend if you chose to bring someone with. I would find your visit to be very enjoyable as long as you were not planning on staying to long.

All the best to a fellow soldier,

"This I choose to defend"


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## grizzman (May 10, 2009)

Abbott your a drama queen, you love to throw my name into the mix…you must think its fine to display your ideal's and post what you like and expect everyone else to bow to your crap…i wont say what i think of you or your crap…and if you want to blame me for this post or the fact that i respect women hood…and am on a crusade…go for it buddy..i wont say what was discussed in a private pm..as you might notice those initials stand for PRIVATE MESSAGE….you have no honor sir…and you have no respect for any of the jocks here….you trample anyone's feeling or thoughts…so on a scale of man hood, you are about an inch tall….....so shoot my name to the stars for all i care….yes i believe that women should have protectors…they use to in a time when men respected women…sure women can stand for themselves…probably better then a man…but its the MORAL …its the right thing to do..but in this world today…its almost gone…and guys like you are the cause…and guys like me will stand for the right…and i will express my view…just as you have the right to express yours…......im sorry lisa for posting this in your post…i sympathize with your original post ….and now im done here ..i have wood working to do…....


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## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

Well *Grizzman* I guess the little ruckus you and your friend* Lisa* started with the intent of "piling on me" because I posted a picture of a women in a bikini (which you found offensive) didn't work out as well as you planned. There are all kinds of folks here *Grizzman* and not all of them follow your value system and that does not make them bad people. Just as I don't think you are a bad guy, I just think you try and force your point of view upon other folks and that's not how the Internet works. Good luck with your picnic although personally I couldn't imagine having to listen to you sober and I hardly drink at all.


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## gurnie (Feb 2, 2010)

alright i DID NOT read this whole thread because i honestly don't have the time. But there might be a few options for you: you could check out your county rec center and see if they offer wodshop classes. Case closed and it's bound to be cheaper (and the county isn't allowed to segregate).

Go to the store manager, make a complaint. He/she might jsut let you in the class. And if you find push back, i'm sure you could file something with BBB but they don't really do anything.

One story i can quickly tell you was that when my fiance was little he was put into the "segregated" kindergarten class because his last name is Spanish (he's half white/Spanish). his mom marched right in to the principal's office and told her to fix it (you're not suppose to segregate in public facilities) or she'd bring a lawyer in. The classes got mixed really quick. but this was public school. And i'm not sure how this applies to private business, but i'm sure a lawyer would advise you on that.

but that's if you honestly want to drag a lawyer into it. I'd pull the owner aside and have a nice civil talk. perhaps bring your portfolio.

i have to add at my shop there are more women than men… which as a woman, i can find it gets annoying. Some of the women really need to be babied through stuff. Others are quite independent. I find some of the men are the same way. I guess i get annoyed when an instructor spends all of the free shop time with one person. but i find the women in our shop like to be coddled.


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## rep (Nov 20, 2009)

Very entertaining. Almost stayed civil.


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## EPJartisan (Nov 4, 2009)

Man oh man Abbott, you are a jerk. Let room for people in the world for people who want to share their piece in peace and have intellectual discourse. You are droll instigator.. a troll.. a lurker, a skulker.. what else is there that describes someone who seems to fine their soul purpose in the world to being seen as the stupid guy that should know better, but won't shut up. Do you not realize that YOU are the only problem that YOU must hate in the world. You must feel superior knowing you can crap in the same place you woodwork. You spread angst, you bring uncivil and shallow thoughtless arguments… meant to exacerbate any issue than find a resolution. You are a banal bully, who should… but likely never will… grow up. Should anyone act in accordance to you, I believe you would either not get it, or be shamelessly bemused, not understanding the joke is always on you. My anger goes away.. you will remain the same and I feel sad for you. If this is how you feel about yourself.. go on and be it. I support your right to be an ass… and I support my right to tell you so.


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## SCOTSMAN (Aug 1, 2008)

LIsa we men have wronged women since day one even today women get treated as second class citizens.This kind of thing should be against the law.The sooner men realise that women are their absolute equals the better.I feel very saddened everytime I hear about women being treated shabbily in this way I.E paid less than men for the same job for example I could write for hours about my feelings but will just say wrong is wrong is wrong, wrong, wrong .And no argument can afford to justify how women Black people etc etc are treated even in this day and age very poorly because of mans ingnorance.Sometimes I feel ashamed to be a white male in this world I can only say I am sorry you heve been hurt God Bless and keep your spirits up the world is full of idiot's like this guy sorry Kindest regards Alistair Ps please don't think we are all like that I worked in Germany as a translator for human rights in the german law courts with amnesty international for a few years and was ashamed at the way minorities are /were, treated even then .Alistair


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

Ahhh, Abbott, providing a catharsis for all the people with an unbearable stress on their mind of one kind or another. Just one more generous thing he does here, for all the thankless recipients of his good will. Hats off to you, sir!


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## Knothead62 (Apr 17, 2010)

Lisa, sign up for the class. If they refuse to let you in, contact the appropriate state agency regarding discrimination and let them handle it. They have investigators and attorneys on staff to look into such complaints.


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## DaddyZ (Jan 28, 2010)

Sorry to hear it! No matter who you are you are bound to run into some bad apples sooner or later !!!


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## m88k (Apr 26, 2010)

In those days spirits were brave, the stakes were high, men were REAL men, women were REAL women, and small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri were REAL small furry creatures from Aplha Centauri.

Sorry, this just popped into my head after reading one of the above posts; couldn't help my self.


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## cranbrook2 (May 28, 2006)

Mark nothing is the way it should be anymore .It,s all a mixed bag of nuts now !!


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## EPJartisan (Nov 4, 2009)

Since humans stood up and walked, talked, and passed on culture…. it's *ALWAYS* been mixed nuts. Let the past go, the past let go for you. My mother likes to remind me that for every generation.. the one before you is out of touch, the one coming next is ignorant… and everyone lives in their own hell. Men at one time wore ruffles and cod pieces, wore make-up, and carried purses.. Just because you say when "men were men" does not mean it has ANY truth nor carry any weight.


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## cranbrook2 (May 28, 2006)

I feel sorry for the kids growing up these days not knowing what a man or woman is supposed to look like or act like . Poor things )


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## SnowyRiver (Nov 14, 2008)

OK, so I read this thread and agree, why would they have a woodworking class just for men. Then today I went to Lowes and there was a sign on the door…Womens Woodworking Class….go figure !!


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## cranbrook2 (May 28, 2006)

They say the 3/4 of Home Depot,s customers are women . Maybe they have all the money


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## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

..and I always post naked.

.

.

.
..

.
.
.
. Just kidding


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## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

Very entertaining. Almost stayed civil. -*-Rick*

That's the best post of the thread!


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I will absoutely guarantee this has been blown completely out of proportion. There is no way in h-- any retial store in Seattle is going to turn a woman way from a man's WW class.

John, Hpme Depot and Lowes sell a lot more than wood )


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

I have a red pencil box


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## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

Then the flamer just wants to call foul at everything. -*glivingston *

That's pretty much it, its just a control issue.These little forum groups like to try and gang up on posters that won't fall into step with their point of view. Then they like to flame and cry foul when they get a reply that they don't like. It's nothing but nuthin. Nice icon you smooth mutha you.

*Roger* your post made me laugh


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## Magnum (Feb 5, 2010)

Gee *Abbott* I feal so inferior with my little 48inch Muskie Avatar, compared to your* "Tool Ladies". *

I don't even know if it's a *He or a She Fishie*? That's one GOOD thing about Fishing! Nobody looks and Nobody cares as Long as it's BIG and puts up a Good FIGHT.

"My mother likes to remind me that for every generation.. the one before you is out of touch, the one coming next is ignorant… and everyone lives in their own hell." GEEZ! * glivingston, *is that the way you really live your Life?

How about a little *Optimism* Guy? The Party is *NOW!* Get in on the *FUN*!

Flush the Cynicism! You know what* Cynisism *is? "A Man who, when he Smells Flowers, looks around for a Coffin." *OR *"A man who found out when he was Ten that there wasn't any Santa Claus, and He's still UPSET."

I read your* Cynical attack *on Abbott. That's a LOT of *Anger and Hate *Man! " I support your right to be an ass… and I support my right to tell you so."* YIKES! *

Okay.* You can let loose on me now*, if it makes you feel any better. I'll be back shortly. I have to go and clean the *"CRAP" *out of my Shop so I can do some more *"Woodwork*". I keep slipping on it, and that isn't exactly what you would call a *"Safe Practice." *

Rick


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## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

Sure thing *G*, I'll tell them to put something nice on and send them on over. With all five you should have a good group and could provide a nice woman's only woodworking class. Have fun!


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## juniorjock (Feb 3, 2008)

Chuck


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## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

Chuck-*juniorjack*









.
Chuck Norris


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

women are exactly like men

in some cases both sexes are profoundly stupid….............*Zero* cure for those ones

another very long thread that is infinite, ..................................in its stupidity.


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## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

But it is long on humor


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## CryptKeeper (Apr 28, 2010)

I haven't read through all of the recent post yet but I saw this thread last week and I stopped by this store Saturday. I asked the clerk if she had a current class schedule and she said no everything was posted on the web. I checked the website for this store and I do not see any classes that say men only. However, I had already seen the classes labeled 'for women' online so I went a head and asked why they offered these classes and I quote, "Our female customers asked for an environment where they did not feel intimidated."

While I have never been in the situation you found yourself I have seen this first hand with my wife. She earned her BS in Computer Science. She would come home crying because of the 'all boys club.' There were times she was literally the only female out of 50 students. Her approach to the problem is to encourage other women to go into technical fields.

I didn't ask about the instructors but typically (at least in my other hobbies), they are not employed by the store directly. They sign up to teach the class and receive part of the course fee for each person attending the class.

It sounds like you are an accomplished woodworker maybe you could consider teaching some classes and encouraging women to try the art?

As for emailing the store and not getting a response according to their competitor in Tukwila he gets several thousand emails a week and there is no way he can't read them all so his employees help cull through them. I worked in retail for 15 years and as a manager I wanted to talk to the customers that did not enjoy their experience in my store and if it was in my power I would make every effort to change the situation. If you haven't already done so I would find out when the manager is on duty and stop by and ask them for cup of coffee and discuss your concerns.

By the way I haven't been it the store in several months prior to this visit their remodel is looking good the class room area is going to be really nice. I would hate for you to miss out on the opportunity to use them.

~Ron


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## Magnum (Feb 5, 2010)

*UH OH! Rick made a BOO BOO. My SINCERE Apologies Mr. Livingston (g). *

That Post of mine was intended for* EPJartisan *and his BS,* TOTALLY out of line*, Flaming of Abbott along with the other JUNK he's put on here.Then his other* "Equal Rights For All As A Woodworker*" to put it Politely, Posting that he now says was a mistake.

In fact I've been* AGREEING *with everything you've had to say on here! *EQUAL OPPORTUNIST *are the right words for sure! I'm also fed up with this "I'm more equal than you are, because I'm a Minority, One Way or The Other".

As I believe you said, this thread should never have been started in the first place. "If you don't like it, *DO something about it!!"* If your NOT going to do that …..Shut The Hell Up!

Don't go looking for everyone elses opinion, confirmation or support for what you're not doing. *NO OFFENCE *intended for all the other Posters here who had their say on this Never Ending Topic.

Okay I'm gonna go, and fall on my head again, at least that way there won't be a lot of damage done.

Rick


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## Bradford (Dec 8, 2007)

Where's the coffee pot?


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Next to Roger's red pencil box.


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## cranbrook2 (May 28, 2006)

200 post about nothing !!


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## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

I have to agree with you on that point* John*, I've finished off a couple of bags of popcorn and some beers watching this one.

*Roger Clark* doesn't know it yet but his Red Pencil Box joke may become his signature stamp on this forum.


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## kolwdwrkr (Jul 27, 2008)

This may help Roger.


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## grizzman (May 10, 2009)

be it known. roger took my red box


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## Magnum (Feb 5, 2010)

*Mr. Livingston(g): *Thank you kind Sir! As for the Aspirin …....Although She's no longer here, I was always amazed at my Mother and the ever faithful adage *...."Mommy will kiss it and make it all better."*

Then when I was about 13 I took up Western Style Horse Back Riding. One day when I thought the Horse was going to jump the fence and he decided not to, at the last second,* but I did anyway *..well…You know what a *Saddle Horn is!!!!*

So. I went home in a* LOT *of pain. Mom said "Where does it hurt?" I pointed. She said "The* Absorbine Junior *is in the Medicine Cabinet."

I'd never used it before, so I did! I should have left *"Bad Enough Alone"!! *Talk about *"Fire In The Hole!!!!!" *Must have taken 4 hours before the Smoke cleared!!

What was this Post all about? Oh Yeah, *John* (5 above) is right.* NOTHING*! Well. It used to be. It's getting more interesting all the time *...LOL….*

Rick


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