# Porter Cable Dovetail jig 4216 ! ! ! ! !



## gblock66 (Jun 11, 2010)

Hi All,

I hope there is someone out there that can help me with this. Im using a porter cable dovetail jig to make half blind dovetails. I have read and re-read the instructions over, and over, and over again. . .Im using the right template, im using the right dovetail router bit, i set it up the way the instructions tell me to, centering the vertical board (tails) between the dovetail spaces and setting the black guide lining up the horizontal piece (pins) with the offset. when im done routering and i go to join both pieces together they dont fit, the Tails are an 1/8" bigger then the pins. . . .this is driving me crazy. . .i dont get why they dont fit together. . .If anyone has any experience with this jig and making half blid dovetails. . .i would love to hear from you. . . .there has to be something im doing wrong. . .


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## doninvegas (Jun 10, 2010)

Glock. sorry I really can't help you. I bought the 4212 about 5 years ago and I could never could get dovetails to fit right. I was able to get sliding dovetails semi close but that was after a lot of trail and error. I finally throw it under my bench and never touched it again. If anyone as a secrete to these jigs I'd love to hear it. I feel your pain.


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## clada (Jun 2, 2010)

I am sorry to tell you this, but I had one of those portecable dovetail jig and I traded it for a lathe and I purchased a Veritas dovetail saw and woodriver chisel, I couldn't figure out how to set it up

good luck


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Gary, are you using the black guide on the right of the jig to set up your boards? You're supposed to be using the guide on the left side of the jig.


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## Potacka (Oct 7, 2009)

Have you centered the bushing on your router. The jig does not come with a centering pin (cone?), it should. I bought one and it made a huge difference in the result. Also check you stock it must be flat, any warping or twisting etc will mess with the accuracy.

Adam


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

I have a 4212. Gathers dust. Bought a Incra Positioner for my router and eliminated the alignment problems.


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## ajosephg (Aug 25, 2008)

I have a 4216 and don't have any trouble. Are you using the guides as Charlie said? Maybe a picture would help to understand your problem.

Porter Cable also has a supplemental instruction book that can be downloaded that helps understand the setup better.


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## CyBorge (Sep 15, 2009)

I have only used my dovetail jig once and it is a different brand, but the concepts may be similar. Once the boards are in position and lined up correctly (check this first!), there are two adjustments to tweak the fit.

The first adjustment is how loose or tight the joint is. This is determined by how deep your router bit is set to cut. If the fit is too loose, lower the bit slightly so that it cuts deeper. If the fit is too tight, raise the bit so that it cuts shallower.

The second adjustment is how flush the drawer pieces fit together. In other words, whether the drawer front sticks out from the side, is recessed, or aligns perfectly. This is determined by how far back the router is allowed to cut. My jig has a top-mounted fence to limit router travel front to back, though I don't see why adjusting the template itself wouldn't accomplish the same thing. After all, the router bushing runs into the back of the template's finger holes at some point…

Edit: One other thing comes to mind. When you clamp the two boards into place, are you making sure they are lined up correctly? The top edge of the vertical board should be flush with the top face of the horizontal board. The boards should also be butted up against each other with no gap in between.


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## Belg1960 (Jan 3, 2010)

try looking on this thread looks like your not alone. http://lumberjocks.com/topics/15567 Pat


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

I think *CyBorge* has it right.

For me, depth of cut is the single biggest issue. The regular PC instruction book is-IMHO-crap, in this regard.

On the other hand, there IS good info in their advanced book .

Check Page 5, in particular.

When you DO get it figured out, they really DO work well !

EDIT: Ayup. Joe said the same thing. The link is above, though


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## North40 (Oct 17, 2007)

Yeah, I'm with the others who have said the bit height is the issue. This helps me remember - "Heighten to tighten, lower to loosen." You have to remember that "height"="bit projection". Basically your joints are way too tight, so you need to lower (or retract) your bit.

@*CharlieM1958* - you only use the left side of your jig?


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## KentS (May 27, 2009)

I have the 4212 and found it relatively easy to set up. Like Adam, the only real issue I had was not having the template guide centered in my router. There had been a consistent gap on one side of every dovetail.

I started out with my Porter Cable 690 router but found fine-tuning the height was next to impossible. Switched to my Bosch 1617EVS and had no trouble setting everything.


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## CyBorge (Sep 15, 2009)

My jig's manual has the same "heighten to tighten" line. It confused the heck out of me for a while, because what they call heightening I call lowering.  The forward/backward comments for the stop bar/fence were also confusing because, again, I interpreted those directions opposite of how the manual does. It makes for some interesting challenges when left is right, down is up, inside is out, and less is more!


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Peter, my 4212 has an aluminum-colored offset guide on the left, and a black one on the right. The amount of offset is different on the two guides. As I recall without referring to the manual, the right side is for certain types of joints, but half-blinds need to be made on the left.


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## gblock66 (Jun 11, 2010)

All. . .here is an update with pictures. . .the first picture is the jig all setup ready to cut the half blinds . .also this is the router bit and spacer and template the manual tells me to use. The second picture is the pins and tails cut. . .if you look close you can see the pins are slightly bigger then the tails. . .and the third picture is both pieces put together. . .they dont fit . . the cherry is 3/4" thick. . .my depth was 5/8" . If it's lower to loosen i cant go any further down


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## gblock66 (Jun 11, 2010)

http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af74/gblock66/DSCF0311.jpg
http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af74/gblock66/DSCF0312.jpg
http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af74/gblock66/DSCF0313.jpg


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Gary, you don't seem to have the boards lined up right with the offset guide. The top horizontal board should actually be sitting further right than the vertical board (unless there has been some change and your offset guide is opposite of mine). In other words, each board should be resting against the edge of the black offset guide.

(By the way, disregard what I said earlier…. I forgot that I had the mini-dovetail guide installed on the left and the regular size on the right.)


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## gblock66 (Jun 11, 2010)

The boards are right up against the black offset guide. . . .


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## Potacka (Oct 7, 2009)

Can't tell from the angle of the picture but are your boards meeting under the line scribed in the jig?

Adam


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## gblock66 (Jun 11, 2010)

Yes the boards meet right under the scribed line on the jig. . . I have followed Porter Cables manual to a tee on half blind dovetails. . . .I just dont get it ! ! !


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## buckeyedudes (Nov 1, 2009)

G66 - does the inside edge of your vertical board exactly line up with the machined notches in the aluminum plate?
In your photo it doesn't look like it. The inside edge of the board has to be in line, otherwise it will never come out right. Let us know….thanks.


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## buckeyedudes (Nov 1, 2009)

Sorry - now I see someone already asked this.

Do you have the larger (or correct) sleeve in the router? Maybe check and see that you should have the smaller one, this would produce larger females. Also make sure your depth of cut is correct. The slightest amount can make a difference.


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## ajosephg (Aug 25, 2008)

It's hard to explain in writing but I think you need to adjust the template (out by 1/8"?) using the knurled brass nuts beneath the plastic template knobs.

It appears that you are cutting into the pin board too deeply resulting in the pins being too long. In my experience the scribe lines on the template only get you into the ball park because the lines are quite wide and quite a ways from the board resulting in a rough measurement at best.

I found it helpful to add an additional nut behind the brass nut to lock it down after I find the sweet spot.

EDIT - I may have got my idea backward you might need to cut further into the top board. Even with photos it's hard to see exactly what's going on.


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## CyBorge (Sep 15, 2009)

"Lower to loosen" means turn the router upside down so that the bit sticks out the top, then lower the bit. That's not what I would consider "lowering", but it is what it is.

Pull the bit further into the router so that you're cutting less wood, and then try it again.


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## woodman71 (Apr 19, 2009)

Hello Glock I have the omnijig 24inch model #7116 . I was reading my manual and if you have check you guide like you have said what I notice in the picture is the board that goes under tail board looks to be half inch in my manual I cant find anything that say wait size scarp wood should be use. But I think you should be using 1/4 inch scarp. I don't know if your manual give you what size to use but I think you should be using 1/4 inch not half I'm not sure but I think this is the problem it not allow the bit to to go low enough and when you try to adjust you router base it going to make loose joints I'm not sure on this I also was reading in my manual the router bit height is to be to 19/32 I don't know what your manual says but hope I help woodman


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

Hate to be the one to mention this but are you sure you have the right bit? Just wondered.


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## kennyd (Mar 9, 2010)

Hi Glock,

Don't give up! Just this morning I started playing around with my Leigh D4 for the first time since I bought it. I followed the instructions to the letter and after the first set of dovetails didn't fit I popped on LJs, saw your thread and followed it. I took all of the info that the guys gave you and went back to the shop and tweaked and tweaked until my joints came out perfect. I'll tell you this…don't trust the guide marks on your jig. Use a bunch of scrap pieces and keep tweaking the fit until it's just right. It took me 3 times before I got the elusive tight fitting dovetail joints and I couldn't be happier. I'll tell you another thing…once you have the perfect fit buy more routers so that you can keep the setup in there!! What a PITA to get it just right but oh so satisfying once you've got it. Good luck.


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## ajosephg (Aug 25, 2008)

I think Kenny has nailed it.

When you think about it, there are only 2 variables that could affect the problem you are having.

1. Bit depth
2. Jig in/out spacing

Adjust one or the other on scrap boards and see how it affects the results and go from their. You'll find the solution real fast. Just make sure that your scrap boards have the exact same thickness of your project boards.

Let us know how you come out so we can all add to our knowledge base.


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## gblock66 (Jun 11, 2010)

Good Morning . . . .
I want to thank all of you. . .Joe, Kenny, Charlie. . .and everyone else who has taken time to help me figure this out.

Here me out on this. . I don't think it has anything to do with Bit Depth or moving the jig in or out.

Ex. The router bit I'm using is a 7 degree dovetail bit just like the instruction manual say's to use. Now, no matter if I move the bit up or down when I'm done routering the diameter of the top of the pins should be the same as the bottom of the tails. . Think about it. . .follow me here…
Now as for moving the template in or out. . .All I'm really doing is tracing the fingers on the template, so weather I move it in or out. . .it doesn't change the diameter of the pins and tails.. . My wood is 3/4", I have lowered the bit to 5/8" and as high as 3/8" . . I still have the same problem the top of the pin's are an 1/8" bigger then the bottom of the tails . . .that's why it doesn't fit. . .if you look at picture the last picture I posted. . .the third pin from the left has 2 pencil marks on it. . .that's the amount it's bigger by. .

Remember. . im doing half blind dovetails . . .not through dovetails . .

One way or another . . im gonna figure this out. . .


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## kennyd (Mar 9, 2010)

Morning Glock,

This may have been asked already but do you have the correct sized guide bushing?


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## gblock66 (Jun 11, 2010)

Well im using the one that the instuction manula tells me to use. . . .so i would have to say yes. . .


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## woodman71 (Apr 19, 2009)

Good morning Glock I think like I said above that bring your bit down to 19/32 will help. I did make the mistake off think you where using a scarp piece to protect your jig with the tail board sorry about that . But I was reading my manual it said 19/32 try move your router bit to that and see if that helps . I was looking at your third picture and from what I see you need to lower your bit . I say this because if the bit is to high your pins will not make the 7 degree cut your up to high and just like you showed in your picture that you have marked off what is to much looks to be about 1/8 inch now keep this in mind when you lower your bit let say 1/32 of inch you are removing 1/16 of inch . I say this because when routing you are removing double your measurement and when you want to decrees it is also double. This will also change your tail broad I think you think the problem is with the pin board but it both the seven degrees on the bit is not being cut in to the boards . I hope this helps please let us all know


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

All I know is that trying to figure out in my head what effect an action would have as far as raising or lowering the bit or moving the template in our out was futile for me. It seems to be pretty counterintuitive and impossible to visualize.

I agree with what has been said already by Joe… once you are certain your basic setup is correct, the only variables are bit depth and jig position. It's got to be one of those two (or a combination).


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## CyBorge (Sep 15, 2009)

I don't follow, Glock. The gap at the bottom of the tails will always be the same width, because it is cut by the tip of the bit. However, the mating part of the pins is cut by a different part of the bit. This is the key.

Raising and lowering the bit changes which part does the cutting. Since it's a dovetail bit with angled sides, raising and lowering it changes the width of the cut at the highest point-which, as you stated, is the part that has to match the lowest part of the tails.


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## ajosephg (Aug 25, 2008)

OK - nice guy that I am, (LOL) tomorrow if you haven't solved the problem, I'll set up my thingy and try to duplicate your situation. Am I correct that both of your boards are 3/4 inch thck?


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## gblock66 (Jun 11, 2010)

Yes, Joe that is correct both boards are 3/4 inch thick. . .


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## gblock66 (Jun 11, 2010)

I really want everyone to know that I appreciate all the help and feedback you're giving me.. . .

Since we have been talking so much about the dovetail bit and its angle. . .I decided to give this a try. . .I setup the same size scrap 3/4" boards, I haven't touched my jig. . .so it's still setup the exact same way. . .but now I used a straight bit. . .same collar the instructions tell me to use. . .and I still have the same problem. . .the pins are still bigger than the tails. . .


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## gblock66 (Jun 11, 2010)

Woodman,

I also tried your way by lowering the bit to 19/32. . .and got the same results. . .just to let you know. . .


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

Are you using the correct template for hidden dovetails?I have 2 one for hidden and one for thru cut.
Also, on my 4212 it calls for a setting of 17/32 not 19/32.


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## woodman71 (Apr 19, 2009)

Hello Glock I was reading your owner manual for your jig 4212 online.Is it possible that you are using the dovetail bit for the miniature dovetail 9/32 7 degrees # 43777pc. The 1/2 inch blind calls for 17/32 7 degree # 43776pc. I think from what I see in your pictures the board is in right place because they match up it just that pins are to big so i think you got them space right. I'm sorry your have this problem when i first get my I had problems to but after a little hard thinking and rereading the manual I got it . Don't give up and let us know how it work out you get me very interested.


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## gblock66 (Jun 11, 2010)

Im sure im using the right template . .the one for hidden is also the same template for the sliding dovetails . .
In my manual . . .it never gives me any measurment of how deep to set the router bit. . .


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## gblock66 (Jun 11, 2010)

Woodman,
I know I'm definitely using the right dovetail bit. . .the 17/32 7 degree bit. . .I know this because I actually measure the bit . . .because I questioned it myself…

This is crazy. . . .that I can't get this to work. . .


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

I'm with Peter O and some of the rest, it's your bit height setting.
If I have this problem on my Incra,it's always a height adjustment. Are you using the factory set height adjustment? Maybe it's off. Play with it and try up or down on a couple of pieces of scrap. Even if it is set right,try changing it. From the looks of your pictures everything is lined up correctly. If nothing else works, call customer service, who knows you may even get someone that speaks english.


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## sandt38 (Jun 9, 2010)

Ironically a friend of mine has a neighbor with a PC dovetail jig and he had so much trouble he walked away and hasn't been back in his shop for a couple months. He tried forever and got so frustrated he almost snapped. I would be interested in hearing a solution, as it seems to be a common problem with these jigs (judging by a few in this thread as well as my friend's neighbor).


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

Sandt38: Like Nbeener said, the instruction book for these things is garbage.


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## CyBorge (Sep 15, 2009)

Any way I look at it, as long as everything else is working properly, raising and lowering a dovetail bit does affect the tightness of the joint. Not so with a straight bit, obviously, but that's not really the objective.

Just for grins, try a narrower guide bushing. You said you're using the one specified by the manual, but it could be a misprint-or even a defective part. If the bushing is too wide, it would prevent the bit from traveling far enough side-to-side between the template fingers, and therefore not cut far enough to the sides.


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## gblock66 (Jun 11, 2010)

CyBorge,

I did try the smaller guide bushing. . .and the oppsit happened. . .the tails were wider then the pins. . .so the joint was to loose. . .my thought is in the guide bushing. . .if i had one in between the large and the small. . .it might just be the right one. . .I think i'll do what Howie said. . .and call customer support. . .and see what they say. . .and hopefully ill get someone that speaks english. . .


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## mcase (Oct 31, 2009)

I've never had problems with the PC. I used to have a Reliant with a phenolic template and separate vertical and horizontal stops, that particular jig was a nightmare. But the PC has been great. The amount of error you describe does not sound like a tweeking issue. Either PC gave you a bad template or there is some major element that you have overlooked. Do you have a woodworking friend who could look at it with you? Sometimes when I've been at a problem too long I miss something that somebody with a fresh view sees right away.


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## gblock66 (Jun 11, 2010)

Joe,

How did you make out. . .did you try to replicate it


> ?


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## ajosephg (Aug 25, 2008)

I was able to make good dovetails. Here is the story.

I used 3/4 inch China Birch plywood. This is not an ideal material to use for dovetails, but it was the only material I had laying around that I wanted to sacrifice for the cause.

The following photo shows a top view of my basic setup. Not much difference between this and what gblock did. This is corrected by decreasing the router bit depth.










End view of the boards is shown below:










Here is a side view of the boards:










Let me know if anybody has any questions.

Here we see what I came up with after tweaking the bit depth and the in/out adjustment of the template guide. If this photo is compared to the equivalent photo that gblock provided earlier, I think you can see what the problem is. On mine, the pin depth (or is it the tail depth?) goes about 1/2 way through the board. Gblocks goes through about 3/4's of the stock.










Here is an addition to the jig to make fine adjustments easier on the template guide. Once you get the basic adjustment close, firm up the hex nuts behind the brass nuts. If you need to make an adjustment loosen the plastic knob and brass nut holding the hex nut in place with your other hand. Then turn the hex nut in or out keeping track of how many flats you turn the nut, so you can make the same adjustment on the other side. Tighten up the brass nut and you're good to try again.


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## ajosephg (Aug 25, 2008)

*"This is corrected by decreasing router bit depth"* in my second paragraph in the previous post should have been the last sentence in the paragraph before the 4th photo. Sorry


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Looks like you nailed it to me, Joe!


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## pommy (Apr 17, 2008)

bye a dovetail saw and cut by hand i tryed my bosh jig and after 4 days of trying i gave up im now learning the hard way by hand


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## woodman71 (Apr 19, 2009)

Well Glock it looks like Joe got it. I think from first time I read this I thought it was bit height from your pictures it looks to me that you had the space right . Like I said I have the PC jig 7116 and when I first bought it took me some playing around to get it to work and I also had a VCR tape to help me. Don't give up I think that PC build nice jigs and the more you use it the easier it will get don't let this stop you from using it for other set up.I don't know if you ever seen the PC new dovetail jig omnijig joinery system I was at woodworking show and saw it was nice and I like it but it is pretty pricey the salesman give me a free instructional video in DVD if ever at a show check it out but like I said very pricey. Hope that what Joe has done will help you out good luck.Good job Joe it nice to see people willing to go the extra mile to help someone again good job Joe and thanks for the help because I also learned something.


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## gblock66 (Jun 11, 2010)

Joe,

I want to thank you so much for taking time out of your day to work on my problem . . .I understand the difference between yours and mine. . .Thank you for the in depth explanation . . .so I'm off to give it another whirl


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## Claymation (Sep 9, 2010)

Anyone still watching this thread? Did it get resolved?


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## pintodeluxe (Sep 12, 2010)

Each bit has only one height that it will make a good joint. The height (depth) for a stock 4210 or 4212 half-blind dovetail is 3/8". If you set the bit at any other height, the tails simply will not fit the sockets.


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## Newbie17 (Feb 20, 2017)

Pintodeluxe has it correct. The jig makes perfect dovetails after some calibration. Proof:


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