# Major Tearout - Ash wood



## knottyknip (Jul 10, 2018)

Hello! Long time lurker, first time posting.

Thank you for all of your contributions and consideration to make this site a very valuable resource.

I am making a table from ash wood. I started removing hardened glue with my hand plane and landed against the grain. The end result is some pretty massive tearout.

I'd like to use an oil based stain (gray) and topped with Arm-R-Seal (matte).

What is the best method to make this blunder as discrete as possible?

I will try to attach pictures


----------



## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

Ouch. Beautiful table. Those look pretty deep. I might be inclined to try the wet towel and iron trick to raise those up and swell the wood. Then id use a card scraper and try not to dish it out too much. If that dont work, maybe some colored epoxy in there but that may stand out too much for your taste.


----------



## Breeze73 (Jul 14, 2016)

I would also recommend some epoxy, but I wouldn't color/tint it. I would try to put the stain on first in the areas that need to be filled. After the stain is dry, then fill them with clear epoxy. After that dries, then level the epoxy and get it up to a pretty high grit (320-400) before staining the whole piece. The stain won't stick to the epoxy, but the sealed in stain color underneath should allow it to fit in with the color of your top. Honestly, no-one other than you will notice the ever so slight defect.


----------



## CaptainKlutz (Apr 23, 2014)

+1 Attempt to raise with wet towel and hot iron technique

If still need to fill, I would try Crystalac grain filler. It is clear shellac based grain filler. Does not absorb much stain color from oil based stain, much less than it does with water based versions (but never messed with gray colors). 
Using an entirely oil based finishing schedule on top of it, it will be compatible, and should be almost invisible.

If you find the Crystalac filler absorbs some stain color, can hide the damage with some artistic work.
Use some fine line artist brushes with custom mixed dark brown/grey stain colors (to match the color after staining) and re-create some faux grain lines on to filled area to match grain around the area. Will take some patience, but should be able to make the fill disappear to most everyone, except maybe a woodworking finishing guru looking for it.

Best Luck.


----------



## knottyknip (Jul 10, 2018)

Chrisstef- thank you for the kind words! I saw an article/video from Marc (WW). Didn't know if I could do it since I ripped the wood fibers (pictures don't do it justice, haha). It is definitely worth a shot though!

Breeze73- thank you for the advice! This method is what I was considering due to the depth of the gouging I inflicted. I also thought the satin arm-r-seal would reduce the depth a bit? Any recommendations on epoxy? I would only need a small tube.

CaptainKlutz - wow! I appreciate you sharing that filler. I thought about using some Timbermate and some colored pencils. I like the staining aspect though, and the fact it has a reduced chance of being too dark after applied. Thank you!

There is soo much knowledge here, and I have soo much to learn!!


----------



## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

The steam trick only works on dents where the cells have been crushed. The steam will swell them to a certain extent and lessen the depth of the dent. Where there is tear out, it won't work because there are no cells there to swell.

You have a number of options. I wrote a blog post about using epoxy putty to fill defects that will work in your case. Your tear out is already rough enough around the edges to ignore the part about obscuring the defect. Also, since you plan to stain it, you will want to do that before any blending of color. Use an epoxy lighter than the wood is raw and stain it, then do the blending and seal it.

Another possibility is a hard fill. There are a couple of different kinds and without a lot of time practicing, a regular hard fill will be your best choice. You can melt it with a soldering iron to drip it into the defects, and use a leveler to scrape it flat. It comes in dozens of colors and is used after staining and your first seal coat is applied. After you complete the fill, then you apply your remaining layers of top coat.

For the hard fill, check out Mohawk Finishing Products videos on youtube. They have a ton of useful how-to videos on doing hard fill.

The final fill is a shellac-type of stick. It'll give the best results, but I don't recommend it for a beginner since the repair is leveled with a burn-in knife and you need a lot of practice to get it right.

One last thing - avoid clear fillers. They sound like they are the perfect fix, but they show up the most due to the way they bend the light that goes through them.


----------



## pintodeluxe (Sep 12, 2010)

I have battled tearout on tabletops in the past. It can be frustrating.

I switched to a helical cutterhead on my planer, which seemed to cure the problem. I glue up pairs of boards into planks, and plane the planks to finished dimensions. Then I glue the planks together. This way I only have to clean up 2 or 3 glue lines for a wide table.

I sand the tabletop, rather than hand planing it. This way there's no risk of tearout. A card scraper is another option, but it's a dreadfully slow process.

I know it doesn't help on this table, but that's how I've avoided the problem lately.


----------



## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

Card scraper for sure you don't need to scrap the whole table. Just lower the wood in the tear out area and blend outwards.
You must of forgot about that card scraper right.


----------



## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

Maybe use the other side?


----------



## knottyknip (Jul 10, 2018)

Rich - awesome! Thanks for taking the time and consideration in your response. The thread you created/linked was very informative and helpful with the pictures! I cannot express my gratitude enough!!

Pintodeluxe- I like your approach! Once I convince my wife I'm pretty decent at this, the allowance for tools
may increase.


----------



## knottyknip (Jul 10, 2018)

Aj2- I don't have a card scraper. Seems like a valuable tool that would come in handy often! Any recommendations on a budget friendly one?


----------



## knottyknip (Jul 10, 2018)

waho9o6- your response is brilliant. I have a tendency to over complicate things. I liked this side for selfish reasons (grain/figure), but my brother wants it stained gray anyways!! The other side is perfect. Haha - too funny. Thank you for helping me keep it simple!


----------



## knottyknip (Jul 10, 2018)

> Maybe use the other side?
> 
> - waho6o9


I'm gonna try a variation of a method listed above, and if it doesn't work… I will use the other side.


----------



## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

Looking forward to seeing your fine table in the projects thread knottyknip!

"I'd like to use an oil based stain (gray) and topped with Arm-R-Seal (matte)."

Practice on some scrap pieces before doing the whole table to make sure you like the finish.

You're welcome knottyknip and keep doing the good work!


----------



## Desert_Woodworker (Jan 28, 2015)

> The steam trick only works on dents where the cells have been crushed. The steam will swell them to a certain extent and lessen the depth of the dent. Where there is tear out, it won t work because there are no cells there to swell.
> 
> You have a number of options. I wrote a blog post about using epoxy putty to fill defects that will work in your case. Your tear out is already rough enough around the edges to ignore the part about obscuring the defect. Also, since you plan to stain it, you will want to do that before any blending of color. Use an epoxy lighter than the wood is raw and stain it, then do the blending and seal it.
> 
> ...


+1 wet towel for dents and whatever else he said, seriously. Nice job…


----------



## woodbutcherbynight (Oct 21, 2011)

I started with these card scrapers, still have them.

https://www.amazon.com/Crown-Hand-Tools-Rectangular-375/dp/B012M9H8UG/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1531366401&sr=8-6&keywords=card+scrapers


----------



## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

Who ever doesn't have and use a card scraper.
Stop what your doing and order one 
It has to be one of best kept secrets it's good to have a nice flexible one and a stiffer one.
It just might replace your sanders.


----------



## enazle (May 18, 2018)

There is another way. I once repaired a $30,000 Figured Makore conference table that had 3 screws ran through the top of it when the base was mounted. You have to have a similar piece of the material preferably a cut-off from the same board, a very sharp carving gouge, some heat activated glue like urea resin and an Iron. Once you found a suitable board use the gouge to remove a strip a little larger in size than the damaged area. Make sure it is the shape of the gouge. Now use the gouge to remove the damaged area on the top so that the strip fills the void, but stands just above the void Maybe by a 32nd. Apply the glue to the plug and position in void. Cover it with a couple sheets of notebook paper and press the hot iron on the plug. Depending on the glue and the temp of the iron, it only takes a few seconds to dry the glue. Gently remove the paper around the plug and sand it flush. You can actually repeat the process side by side to fill a large area.

Basically, your cutting material out of the board and gluing it right in place. Do a few test runs on a piece of scrape before doing it on the table top. You need to learn how long you can press the iron on the wood for it to dry without charring it or the area around it. If you find the right piece of scrape you literally will not be able to see the repair.

I know Rich will bust my balls if i don't include pictures, so I will try to do a pictorial of the process. It only takes a minute or two if you have a suitable piece of scrap. While this repair is actually really easy to do, I can't stress enough that you try it out on some scrape to learn what the variables are.

good luck


----------



## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Basically, your cutting material out of the board and gluing it right in place.
> 
> good luck
> 
> - enazle


That's an interesting concept. I agree it's best to use real, matching wood for the patch, and what better source than the board itself.

It would be great for you to include some photos of your technique, but I think I get it. I'll definitely give it a try.


----------



## Desert_Woodworker (Jan 28, 2015)

photos would be nice


----------



## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

Enazle unfortunately the op doesnt even own a card scraper I doubt he can make a boulle cut on his table.
I do like the way you think !


----------



## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

A scraper can be as easy to make as just a section from an old handsaw, cut to the size and/or shape needed. Usually there are a few junker saws, rusting away, I see a few on the rust hunts I do.










While building a Stepback Cupboard in Ash..









Panel being flattened was for one of the raised panel doors…









Raised the panels using hand planes….


----------



## TimberAndAshDesigns (Jul 3, 2018)

> Aj2- I don't have a card scraper. Seems like a valuable tool that would come in handy often! Any recommendations on a budget friendly one?
> 
> - knottyknip


I use a DFM card scraper. Very affordable. I'm still learning with it but when I do get it sharp it cuts great.

As far as the repair goes I would give Rich's technique a try. In fact I might ordered some of those sticks because I have ran into this exact issue before and it is aggravating!

BTW, your table looks great. I love the colors in the ash!


----------



## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

https://www.craftsmanstudio.com/BearKat-Chair-Scraper-s/340.htm

HTH


----------



## enazle (May 18, 2018)

> Enazle unfortunately the op doesnt even own a card scraper I doubt he can make a boulle cut on his table.
> I do like the way you think !
> 
> - Aj2


Ha Ha, you wont think less of me if I tell you I don't own one either?


----------



## ColonelTravis (Mar 19, 2013)

> https://www.craftsmanstudio.com/BearKat-Chair-Scraper-s/340.htm
> 
> HTH
> 
> - waho6o9


Yes. The card scraper that rules them all. I've tried many brands and Brian has made the best one out there - steel, shape, everything.


----------



## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

> Enazle unfortunately the op doesnt even own a card scraper I doubt he can make a boulle cut on his table.
> I do like the way you think !
> 
> - Aj2
> ...


----------



## PPK (Mar 8, 2016)

> https://www.craftsmanstudio.com/BearKat-Chair-Scraper-s/340.htm
> 
> HTH
> 
> ...


+1

I as well have several others, and Brian's (Bearkatwood's) scraper is the best.


----------



## Desert_Woodworker (Jan 28, 2015)

For those who would like more 
This is just one example from Stumpy Nubbs with more on You Tube


----------



## knottyknip (Jul 10, 2018)

> I started with these card scrapers, still have them.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Crown-Hand-Tools-Rectangular-375/dp/B012M9H8UG/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1531366401&sr=8-6&keywords=card+scrapers
> 
> - woodbutcherbynight


Thank you for the link! Seems like such a small price to pay for enabling fine work. I will order a set tonight. I will snoop around to see if I can find a thread on how to sharpen them.

I like the concept of filling it with similar grain from a "cutoff" board. Thank you for calling out the glue needed as well

I am amazed at the information and ingenuity within this forum.

Thank you!!


----------



## knottyknip (Jul 10, 2018)

> https://www.craftsmanstudio.com/BearKat-Chair-Scraper-s/340.htm
> 
> HTH
> 
> - waho6o9


Just saw this link you posted! I saw the burnisher as well. Thank you for the recommendation.


----------



## knottyknip (Jul 10, 2018)

> For those who would like more
> This is just one example from Stumpy Nubbs with more on You Tube
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you!


----------



## ColonelTravis (Mar 19, 2013)

Good luck, knotty. It's a beautiful top, the tearout is fixable. You'll get it looking just fine.


----------



## knottyknip (Jul 10, 2018)

> Good luck, knotty. It s a beautiful top, the tearout is fixable. You ll get it looking just fine.
> 
> - ColonelTravis


Thank you!


----------



## knottyknip (Jul 10, 2018)

I bought some Timbermate yesterday and gave it a go on a sample piece to get a feel for it. I bought 2 shades, seems like the white oak flavor matches the lighter tones pretty well. I sanded with 60 grit to match the open pores. It got me thinking I might be able to go back over it with a darker tone of Timbermate (more of a slurry mix) to fill in the sandpaper grooves left behind. I will try out the stain tomorrow.


----------



## knottyknip (Jul 10, 2018)

... duplicate post from my phone. Sorry.


----------



## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

That looks good. Get a black artist's pencil and connect some of that grain color across the patch. Go very, very lightly and just give it some soft shading. It's not important that it's a perfect match, just that it doesn't catch the eye.

Be careful going back over it with more Timbermate, since that will dissolve the current patch. It's not moisture proof until it has a top coat. The pencil will be easier to control and give excellent results. If you screw it up, wipe with a moist cloth, re-patch and give it another go.


----------



## knottyknip (Jul 10, 2018)

Rich - is there any risk of the pencil marks "smearing" after applying a conditioner, or stain?


----------



## Desert_Woodworker (Jan 28, 2015)

+1 to Knotty and Rich


----------



## Desert_Woodworker (Jan 28, 2015)

Knotty I just checked your Instagram- wow You are building some nice stuff.


----------



## knottyknip (Jul 10, 2018)

> Knotty I just checked your Instagram- wow You are building some nice stuff.
> 
> - Desert_Woodworker


Thank you for the very kind words!! I still have a lot to learn, and appreciate any advice/critiques.


----------



## enazle (May 18, 2018)

I know this is a few days old. You should certainly test your stain and finish on a sample first before you proceed staining the table itself. I think the stain is going to soak into the filler and create dark spots. I will do a pictorial of my process tonight if you can wait.


----------



## BroncoBrian (Jan 14, 2013)

Learned a lot from this discussion. Thanks for the Stumpy video link!


----------



## enazle (May 18, 2018)

OK I did a pictorial of the process and I ran into a few adjustments I needed to make the patch. I use a piece of scrap pine, which created problems I hadn't ran into the few times I've used this technique I will point out along the way.

First up, we have the board with a screw ran through that needs a patch.


















Next, take your gouge and remove a chunk around the area to be patched:


















Find a suitable plug for the patch in a piece of scrap. 









Here is where things got tricky. The first patch I made I didn't consider how the grain aligned within the hole after it was sanded and consequently my first attempt the grain shifted and became really noticeable once stain was applied. So I cut the first patch out and on the third attempt I was able to anticipate where the grain was going to end-up after sanding.

So once you have your Patch in the hole and lined up the way you want like this:


















Smear glue in the hole only and just enough so as to not have any overage squeeze out on the surface. On my first patch I put the glue on the patch itself and when I pressed it with the hot iron it squeezed out and the stain didn't adhere to the area. 



























Here is the 3rd plug glued in place. It took 30 seconds to dry the glue with the Iron set to cotton.









I re-sand it flat and applied a stain, blow dried it and put a couple coats of aerosol lacquer on it. Notice it is perfectly flat when the sheen is over the patch. The brown Urea Resin glue did bleed through a little but overall not a bad patch and better than using putty.



























I only had to use this technique less than a half dozen times in my career as a woodworker. The few times I did it wasn't on anything as soft and porous and white pine.

I hope this helps out. My uncle whom I was taught once said "I isn't so much how good you are as it is how good you fix your mistakes".


----------



## Desert_Woodworker (Jan 28, 2015)

great post- thanks


----------



## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Rich - is there any risk of the pencil marks "smearing" after applying a conditioner, or stain?
> 
> - knottyknip


Sorry, I lost track of this thread. I had forgotten you planned to stain it. I'd experiment with mixing whatever stain you're using on the wood into the Timbermate (using test boards of course) to get it to match the board after it's stained. The Natural Tint Base would be a better choice than White Oak, but given the color you're getting with it compared to the raw wood, you're safe.

You can mix anything with Timbermate, water, alcohol, oil stains all work great. I really think you should be able to get it pretty darned close - close enough that it won't stand out at least - and that's your goal anyway. It's great when even you can't find your own repair a week later, but as long as no one points at it and asks what happened there you've done an adequate job.

You'll also want to experiment with the artist's pencil after the patch dries and before you apply your top coat. That will help obscure the patch even more. As long as you don't rub it too hard, the top coat won't affect the pencil shading

Edit: If course you can try staining the test board you have to see how well the patch blends in. I doubt if the patch and the wood are going to accept stain the same way, but it's worth a try.


----------



## knottyknip (Jul 10, 2018)

Enazle - thanks for the pictures, and the thorough explanation. Very cool technique!

I ended up just using the timbermate with a bit of dark gray pencil. Here is the final result… (my brother didn't notice, haha)


----------



## Desert_Woodworker (Jan 28, 2015)

Beautiful


----------



## Breeze73 (Jul 14, 2016)

Very nice work! I hope you're charging your brother accordingly!


----------



## knottyknip (Jul 10, 2018)

> Beautiful
> 
> - Desert_Woodworker


Thank you so much!
[/QUOTE]
Very nice work! I hope you re charging your brother accordingly! 

- Breeze73
[/QUOTE]

He insisted "NO family discount!" Pretty awesome to have a supportive network of family and friends.

Thank you for the kind words!!


----------



## enazle (May 18, 2018)

Scraping glue can create havoc. Hell glue in general can create havoc. Since so much of our work was on Mahogany,the company I worked for had a policy where we had to wipe any excess with a damp rag to prevent it from soaking into face of the wood around the joint. Now it is just a habit for me to whip all the glue off before it drys.


----------



## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Scraping glue can create havoc. Hell glue in general can create havoc. Since so much of our work was on Mahogany,the company I worked for had a policy where we had to wipe any excess with a damp rag to prevent it from soaking into face of the wood around the joint. Now it is just a habit for me to whip all the glue off before it drys.
> 
> - enazle


Wiping the glue with a damp rag will spread it and create more havoc than letting it dry and scraping it. Now that I'm using fluorescent Titebond II I can see it under UV and am amazed at what's left behind after various methods, and a damp rag is one of the worst.

FWIW, I get my best results by letting the glue dry to the point that it's completely solid, but not hardened, then running a chisel plane along to slice it off. Masking works great too when it's practical.


----------



## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

Amazing, thanks Rich:









From Rich's blog ^^

Nice save on a gorgeous table knottyknip!


----------



## knottyknip (Jul 10, 2018)

> Amazing, thanks Rich:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you for the kind words and for sharing the insight on that glue! That is pretty slick!!


----------

