# Insurance for teaching woodworking



## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Hello everyone
I've been teaching woodworking at my local Comunity college for about 12 years and privately out of my own shop but my Liability insurance cost is getting bumped up to the $1500 range per year is there anyone that has a source that might be less cost, I'm aware of the other post of folks telling woodworking teachers to have disclaimers and to have insurance but they don't offer any insurance sources for this kind of insurance in Oregon, I was hoping that we have some insurance experts that may be able to help or suggest a company that offeres this type of Libility coverage .
Thanks
Jim


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## John Smith_inFL (Dec 15, 2017)

Jim - my last little "accident" is approaching the $99,000.00 mark in insurance claims.
so I would suggest you find something that will cover at least two or three times that amount. (per person).
so far, I have had to pay only $16.00 out of pocket. 
"I think" some kind of disclaimer for the students in your home/shop to sign releasing you of any "issues" 
that may arise from an accident would definitely help.
I have State Farm homeowners insurance and when I held get-togethers or workshops in my business,
I purchased a "rider" for that weekend only. I wish you luck in finding something that will provide you
secure coverage and hope you NEVER have to use it.


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## eflanders (May 2, 2013)

Jim,
The school should have the needed insurance for you at no charge to you. When I was a teachers aide at a high school they told me that their liability insurance protected me. My dad was the head administrator for a technical college for many years and their school also did the same.
I was told by my insurance guy that if I took out liability in addition to the school that I would be more likely to get sued vs. a school. Naturally he was willing to sell me some "just in case" though.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Thanks John
Your right eflanders the school does have their own insurance the insurance I need is for my private classes not run through the school. Thanks for your input.


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## mojapitt (Dec 31, 2011)

Did you ask Charles?


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## DocSavage45 (Aug 14, 2010)

Jim,

Insurance in my present business is a requirement, but there are many people doing what I do so the risk insurance can be less expensive, but my physical liability is based only on someone falling in my office.

Had one insurance company which started low but increased the policy each year. Found another which bills dependent on number of people seen and type of license the practitioner has.

Monte has a good pint about asking Charles.

I googled and found a number of insurance companies in your area. Might be worth calling to research outcomes?


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Thanks, guys, I did ask Charles some time ago.but his insurance doesn't cover my area. I google also Tom but didn't seem to find more than one that even said anything about woodworking, we must have searched differently if you would email or PM what you found?


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Call an insurance broker.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

I've called lots of them Bob the only one that found anything was the one bumping me up to $1500 mark.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

That may be what you are stuck with. When I was contracting it seemed like the insurance business was in constant turmoil. Always changing what was covered, costs, ect. At one point I was not covered to do residential service calls, but I was remodeling in hospitals and industrial plants. At one point coverage for tool theft was like buying them every 2 or 3 years. Later it was included without any extra charge. It never made any sense to me.


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## woodworm1962 (Feb 15, 2018)

I have looked into this and one thing that is CLEAR is you have a table saw for your students it had BETTER be a SAWSTOP or if a kid gets injured on any other TS YOU ARE SCREWED!



> Hello everyone
> I ve been teaching woodworking at my local Comunity college for about 12 years and privately out of my own shop but my Liability insurance cost is getting bumped up to the $1500 range per year is there anyone that has a source that might be less cost, I m aware of the other post of folks telling woodworking teachers to have disclaimers and to have insurance but they don t offer any insurance sources for this kind of insurance in Oregon, I was hoping that we have some insurance experts that may be able to help or suggest a company that offeres this type of Libility coverage .
> Thanks
> Jim
> ...


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

I'm still licensed Bob but that insurance won't cove my teaching
Funny the insurance guy I'm with now said a SawStop didn't matter even though I have one.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Insurance guy might not care about SawStop, but I'll bet your atty will if there is an issue. It may prevent a slam dunk for the other side.

The one thing I noticed is everything is covered when you buy insurance. When something happens there is an exclusion for coverage on that. It is in the mumbo jumbo and double talk and fine print that a normal person would not interpret that way. Fortunately I never had any serious claims. The only serious incident was a penny behind a fuse in a house fire. I had a permit and inspection for work I did on a correction notice issued by the city to prevent a fire. The tenants got tired of blowing the fuse. Fortunately, the fire marshal did a through job of investigating. Unfortunately, the adjuster did not know what a penny behind a fuse meant. After I explained it, I never heard any more until renewal time. There was concern I might not be insurable because of that claim! The world of liability is not about right and wrong or who is really at fault, it is about the deepest pockets and atty's billable hours.


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## JBrow (Nov 18, 2015)

a1Jim,

I have no idea whether United States Liability Insurance Company will meet your needs. They offer umbrella liability insurance coverage. If interested…

http://www.usli.com/


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## Andybb (Sep 30, 2016)

Is there not a national group or assn. you can join that has group ins?


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

Jim,
My Liability insurance is part of of my property insurance .
I still have Students sign discalimers.
Additionally , I try to demo the table saw and other tools, rather than have them actually do it, if its something they are not comfortable with . 
I also have a Saw Stop and wouldnt consider doing a class with out it . 
You can buy blanket coverage policies, or we can here in VA,. Many places , if you do a show or similar you have to have a policy , but its just for the specific event .


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## Andybb (Sep 30, 2016)

Another way to look at it…...
If your insurance is $1500 and that is you total ins cost then ask yourself what portion of that is because of you teaching out of your home. Divide that by 12 and that is what it is costing you monthly for ins. Is that worth it to you? Seems cheap compared to somebody losing a thumb. If I'm an ins company I'd be scared to death.

I'm curious. Is your homeowners policy $1500/yr with a rider for your teaching or do you pay $1500 for liability for teaching in your shop?


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Thanks, Bob good point
Andy, I'm not aware of one that has insurance discounts as part of its membership, but if anyone knows of such an 
organization please let me know.
Thanks, Charles I have a disclaimer also, but no such blanket coverage here.

That's the whole point Andy wouldn't teach at home shop without coverage If the best I can do is $1500 then that's what I'll do it may take 3-4 private lessons to pay for the insurance but then I've covered the year's cost.
No my home insurance is not that high but they don't do commercial insurance, a rider is not available, first place I checked. The new price is $1500 just for the teaching in my shop not including my separate home insurance.

Thank you all for your input and suggestions, they are appreciated very much.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

I didn't think a minor or juvenile could sign something like a waiver to rid you of liability.

Train your staff members on liability waivers, too. ... A liability waiver signed only by a minor is not a valid contract. Most courts have ruled that a parent cannot sign away their child's right to sue for negligence. Only six states have upheld a waiver signed by a minor and a parent.

http://www.recmanagement.com/feature_print.php?fid=200908gc01


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

AG 
I only teach adults ,I volunteer at the high school sometimes but their insurance covers me there and there's no money involved with them.


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## Andybb (Sep 30, 2016)

Ah ok. So basically, as you said, you need to add that to your fixed monthly expense along with the other expenses you have. If it only takes 3-4 lessons to cover a year that sounds like a plan. Awesome. If they're charging you about $110 a month to have strangers operate your amputation and blinding machines it sounds like a reasonable rate.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

Did you look at whether you could just buy a separate policy that is just for each class? Just wondering if several short policies that are priced based upon the number of students in each might be cheaper than one umbrella for the whole year. Maybe you teach enough individual classes that it doesn't make sense but might be worth asking.

Another thought is to ask some nearby woodworking or turning clubs what they do. They might have a good broker. Any maker spaces near you? They might be able to recommend a broker.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Those sound like great ideas Nathan I'll check them out,thanks for the help.


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## bearkatwood (Aug 19, 2015)

Is the shop on your home property? Could you just bundle it with homeowners?
What kind of waivers do you have student sign?


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

I'm not sure how good waivers are. It may stop someone from wining a settlement but they can still sue you causing substantial money lose just defending yourself. They may not win but in American the say anyone can sue of anything.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

yes it is on my home's property but my home insurance does not bundle, thanks for the suggestion Brian

I know your 100 % right AK


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## bearkatwood (Aug 19, 2015)

No bundle, well then I think you should sue lol.


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## caboxmaker (May 3, 2017)

Jim, how much was your insurance prior to being bumped up to $1500? Approximately how many students per year do you teach from home? It looks like it's a simple process of increasing your tuition costs to cover your new insurance cost.


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## bearkatwood (Aug 19, 2015)

That is a good question, does your interest depend on how many student you might have. I am looking to get my shop set up for classes and this info is helpful.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

I actually taught less than I estimated when first getting the insurance it was $1150 no accidents and I have bought a SawStop since. I think it might just be the way some insurance companies do business.


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## finns (Nov 13, 2009)

I rent commercial space and pay $1776 annually for my insurance. I had an agent look into this and this is the best we can do. It's just the cost of doing business these days.

Fred


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## CaptainKlutz (Apr 23, 2014)

Not an expert, but a few ideas based on carrying different umbrella liability policies for over 30 years?

For very many years, pyrotechnics was one of my hobbies; and even gave classes. Carried umbrella liability policy bundled with my homeowners that cost ~$1000/$1M coverage last time I had it. It was a secondary coverage policy, paying out only after any other viable insurance was used (IE property/casualty insurance paid first for damage, medical, loss, or suits). There were price discounts based on level of primary coverage, as when I upgraded to a more expensive residence, my liability umbrella policy became cheaper? I dropped that hobby a few years ago, so can not help with current rate comparison? But
Primary national organization for the hobby negotiated discounted liability insurance for it's members from several carriers. I have never heard of woodworkers organization that was involved in negotiating hobby insurance, but have you checked the woodworking guilds for insurance discounts?

Do not want to start a political debate on gun ownership, but the NRA also has negotiated numerous umbrella liability policy discounts. Liability insurance is big deal for most educated hand gun owners. There used to be one of the NRA liability providers that simply insured the gun owner, and covers even if a gun was not involved in incident. Unless fine print says otherwise, a true general liability policy covers most any liability regardless of action that created the loss incident. Hence you can buy a cheap shotgun for <$250, and maybe use NRA discounts? 

AZ contractors are required to carry commercial general liability insurance to receive state license. Considered doing custom built-in work as a hobby business last year, and was quoted $950-$1300 for "carpenters" general liability policy to gain state license. It covered accidents to others from my equipment as long as they weren't employee's . Commercial contractor insurance pricing seemed fairly competitive. One broker I quoted even offered to met any other providers quote. 
Insurance is a numbers game. It may take some finesse with categorization of the coverage to find lowest cost. Carriers are always changing rates based on the average risk level they see during last few years. If your carrier got hit with some big payouts recently, then carriers risk rates go up and you may need a new carrier. 

All you can really do is spend many hours shopping for a new provider hoping you find a lower price, and be sure to read fine print.

Best Luck.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Thanks Fred 
Thanks, C K funny I'm a contractor asked if they would cover my teaching they said no and said I needed to sign a waiver saying I wouldn't teach under their insurance, so much for that. I will continue as you suggest and had planned keeping on keeping on.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

My homeowners and associated umbrellas have always excluded any commercial activities and tools or equipment. Surprisingly, Hartford allowed signage and tool and material transport without requiring commercial auto insurance.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

Maybe the Government should step in like they did with healthcare an force insurance companies to insure the the teaching of woodworking.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

thanks Bob
Shhhhh don't give them any Ideas AK guy Ha Ha.


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## bearkatwood (Aug 19, 2015)

An individual mandate that everyone must own a hand plane. You might have something there 
So I am new to this whole teaching idea and this forum has been very helpful. What would you suggest I look at if I were to say have 3 students at a time and probably 5 classes at most in the beginning?


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Hi Brian 
You might check with your local College and see if they need someone to do night courses once a week, that's a great way to get training and you don't need to use your shop or have insurance. If your college doesn't have a shop The college might be able to talk a local high school into using their shop for a college class.


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## iamwelty (Nov 14, 2009)

I am an insurance agent in Illinois. I definitely would not rely on my home owners insurance, personal umbrella or signed waiver to protect you from being sued. Honestly, the $1500 premium sounds about right for a $1,000,000 commercial policy for teaching woodworking in your home. If you were my client I would definitely include a cover letter to the underwriters explaining your experience, commitment to safety and the Sawstop equipment. I would also send documentation about the saw's safety features. You never know if the underwriter fully understands exactly what the risk is all about, especially insuring something outside the norm, like teaching woodworking out of your home. If your shop is clean and tidy, I'd include pictures of your shop in my narrative to the insurance companies.


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## Tennessee (Jul 8, 2011)

Jim:
I had CNA. Got it through a local independent broker here in Tennessee. They covered anyone who walked into my shop, and any accident caused by something I built. I had it when I was really into selling guitars. I initially looked into it because of things like breaking strings, (there is a history of lost eyes from guitar players who pop strings - if I put those on the instrument)...so I got a policy.

So when I officially ended my guitar building business, I stopped the insurance and got a rider on my home policy, which covers my shop, but no one who comes in. I just don't let people in my shop. Guitar and stringed instrument repairs are covered by the original builders of the instruments. Their design, their liability.

I was in the $850 range, with a 1.5M policy. But at least when a customer walked into my shop, I was covered if they did something stupid, like cut themselves on a blade, or something really stupid, like push a button. Still high, but not $1500 high…


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Thanks for your help iam and Tenn I appreciate your help.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

New bid today $500 Yaaaa Hooo


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

Nice. That'll buy a few routers and bits. ;-)


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Ha Ha Good idea Nathan


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## bearkatwood (Aug 19, 2015)

Who did you get it from?


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Hi Brian
I got it from a local insurance company "Umpqua Insurance in Roseburg " ask for Lourie if your thinking of getting some Insurance too.


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## bearkatwood (Aug 19, 2015)

Thank you. That is a significant difference in pricing.


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## stefang (Apr 9, 2009)

What a nightmare Jim. I hope you find a reasonable solution. This seems a great incentive to stop teaching anything but laying in bed.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Hi Mike 
a couple post up I did find a reasonable rate and jumped on it with both feet. If you would be up to it you would be a great teacher. Have a great day and don't get buried in some of those snows you have.


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