# The World Needs a Non-Stanley Generic Plane ID Guide! i.e. Plane DNA?



## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

Well.. got in a few more orphan planes…and realized that there is absolutely nobody to turn to for an accurate identification. It's just academic, I suppose, to want to know where these planes come from, planes that the manufacturer or retailer didn't think enough of, to identify them. Oh, wait… was there originally a sticker on them, now worn off and lost to history? The packaging too, is long gone.

Yeah, I know, probably a brand name was moot, maybe retailed by giants like Kresge's or F. W. Woolworth, meant to be used once to plane off a sticky screen door and then left to rust somewhere.

(Generic pictures removed for clarity.)

Anyway, we need a guide to assist in the identification of these old generic planes, right?

So… can we construct a flow-chart of some sort, all of us pitching in on such characteristics as body color, frog color, lateral adjuster shape, angle of tote retaining screw, front knob shape and wood species, size of cutter adjusting knob, and other stuff? Is such an undertaking worthwhile? Maybe a spreadsheet with editable text like in wikipedia? We can do it!!! Nobody else has ever assembled elsewhere with the knowledge and resources we have here!


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## bent (May 9, 2008)

the paint color looks like a stanley handyman. last weekend, i saw one from the 1970's that looked alot like this one.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

I'm wondering if our resident plane experts can collaborate on an identification project, whether it be a spreadsheet or flow-chart, *similar to *the hyperkitten flow chart for determining the 'type' of a given Stanley plane, that is, the era in which it was produced. This was set up by a series of questions about specific characteristics by which you could the determine the age and period of manufacture. With enough info, sorted logically, such a flow chart could be used to determine the brand name and presumed manufacturer of a typical non-Stanley plane. This is what I'm hoping to see someday.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Fulton Planes: made by sargent, sold at Sears & Roebuck

Craftsman brand planes: Early ones by Sargent, later ones by Stanley

Planes sold by Worth: Unsure who made these LOW budget beauties

Union and sargent: Before there was a Stanley version…..

Great Neck planes????


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

Thanks, bandit! I realize there is a ton of info that would need to be collected and sorted. And then, of course, the problem is how to make it useful to someone with a plane that has no markings at all! I think we can get there, or perhaps this task is too monumental to undertake? I dunno…


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

The best clues are in the frogs, followed by the lateral adjustor lever. Sometimes a number is stamped underneath a frog ( such as a 414 , or 409B on a fulton frog) Or maybe a handle shaped a certain way. Maybe lay things out by decades, with a guide as to who made what type of frog, lateral, paint colours, and lever caps.

As for Sheltons, thankfully, they are in a class all by themselves…..


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

I k ow what you're saying. It would be a big undertaking. I'd certainly pitch in.


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## ksSlim (Jun 27, 2010)

Interesting challenge. I suggest to start, All known brand names, followed by Mfg. of the various brands. Yes, I understand "house" brands mfg changed fron yesr to year. ie: Dunlop brand sold by Sears & Sawbuck was named for a marketing VP, first mfg by Sargant. Bring on the info and we'll all attempt to collate and organize. Spread sheets easily turn into flow charts.


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## Deycart (Mar 21, 2012)

I would be very interested in helping! I think any pat. numbers would be a huge clue not to over look. I just used on the other day to ID a plane on ebay.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

I think I have enough "off-beat" planes to start a few pictures with. mainly Unions, Sargents, and a few others. Even have a couple stanleys. And ONE made by Worth…...


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## davidmicraig (Nov 21, 2009)

Might I suggest we start with a thread, "unidentified non-Stanley planes?." It could start as an information dump that would be a general Q and A for those unsure. Surely links and responses would fill in the gaps over time. From there, a potential spreadsheet or database can be built up from the tidbits left behind. Also, those that have non-stanley planes who do know the history could add to the knowledge dump.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

i started something similar some time ago.

http://lumberjocks.com/donwilwol/blog/24091


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

Wow, Don, I had no idea that you posted that blog!! Very informative! I started noodling with a spreadsheet last night, trying to think of all possible variations in color, frog design, lateral levers, yikes…I quickly came to the realization that this is a huge project, and for it to be worthwhile, it has to be comprehensive. Yikes, and now I have to add 'gotta percha' to the list of tote materials, yowie! I think many of the unidentified planes we find probably came to market with a cheezy sticker on them, now long gone. As David Craig said above, an information dump would be great, especially for these poorly marked planes. Would a template be helpful? To plug in a value for all possible variations of a plane you're holding in your hand? I can see where this could get complex in a hurry.


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## davidmicraig (Nov 21, 2009)

Great blog Don and a good reference point. Maybe a copy and paste into a forum topic as a start? The problem with Blogs is that they do not stay in the forefront like forums do. Once an agreed upon forum is started, I would have no problem doing a few searches for copy/paste into the forum so that some of the misc. posts that are already out here could be added for easier reference. Not as effective as a spreadsheet but might provide a centralized location for those seeking to ID.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

so here is one that's just Stanley. http://primeshop.com/access/woodwork/stanleyplane/pftsynch.htm

I'm thinking it would need to be a database, a spreadsheet would be *HUGE*.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

The problem with a thread, its hard to search. There is probably a large amount of this kind of data in "The hand plane of your dream" thread, but its impossible to find that information.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

Now if someone agreed to extract that data as it happened and dump it some wheres, that's a different story.


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## davidmicraig (Nov 21, 2009)

Difficult, yes. Impossible, no. If we get the word out to include "unknown plane" or something to that effect in the tabs. I use the search funciton in LJs all the time. Most times I don't even post a question out here because I usually can find a thread that answers without the need. It wouldn't be the final solution but at least would provide a place to put info while one of us works in the database. I have software at home for this type of development, but would take a while just to even get a working format plus it would have to be publicly accessible. Which would result in the necessity of paying for a site to publish it. The cost would not be prohibitive but would take time. Might as well provide a location for info gathering in the interim. And, if it never developed, at least there would be a thread to peruse to see if one can identify a new find.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

Yes, undoubtedly it will have to be a dedicated website, first of all. But seeing how hyperkitten, for example, http://hyperkitten.com/tools/stanley_bench_plane/dating_flowchart.php#Types 1-20 this is probably the type of format that would work. I'd also like to incorporate some of the wikipedia-type of editing by users to fine-tune the information, though leaving the info accessible to editing by others is risky. Hmmm… this is getting interesting! Hey, maybe if we had a template we could send to people when they post an unusual plane, perhaps they could check off every characteristic on the list that applies to the plane and post it to the website… hmm dunno..


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

I guess not only did stanley make a bunch of "Store Brands", so did Union ( before Stanley bought them) and sargent. Besides the Dunlap brand ( Don't have one, yet) there was a "Fulton" brand









Base has a Fulton stamp, behind the front knob. Sold at Sears before the Craftsman brand. Sargent also made the first Craftsman branded ones as well









One link between all three of these "off-brands" was in the lateral, and the general shape of the frog









Fulton









And the Craftsman frog, actually a Sargent/ Hercules brand.

Great Neck planes?? Looks like a later type of stanley.

Worth planes?


> Mine has a pressed steel frog. Would these kind of planes count in this data base


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

*bandit:*
Thanks for the pics!
Yes, in my Excel doodles, not only do I have 'pressed steel' frogs listed, but pressed steel 'bottle cap' adjustment wheels. I'm not sure if one was ever used without the other, but that would be of great interest too!
Your last pic has another clue: isn't that a *phillips head *lever cap retainer screw? Never seen one like that before, but another good identifying clue!


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

That plane had Phillips headed screws in both handles, as well. The pressed steel frog had a Brass wheel adjustor









All of my union frogs look the same, as well









Union #5a frog, and a #4 frog









And a #3 sized one









Not the best picture, but it shows a Stanley Defiance #3 sitting next to a RED Great Neck No. 1 (#4 size)


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## ksSlim (Jun 27, 2010)

1905 Union Plane catalogue. http://www.toolemera.com/catpdf/union1905cat.pdf
might be worth a look


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

One thing I'd like to emphasize, is that I'd like to focus on the UNBRANDED planes. I have several, dozens actually, that I wish I could identify through some sort of reference material. I only wish to know four things: * A.) *Approximate date of manufacture* B.) *Which manufacturing facility produced it, * C.) *Who retailed it, and *D.) *What brand name it was born with. There already exists ample reference material for all the major plane manufacturers out there. As far as I know, there has been NO published work regarding the identification of the generic, orphan planes which frequently come up for sale. I tend to rely on the shape of the lateral adjustment lever ONLY to guess a plane's probable origin, and simply let it go at that. There simply HAS to be a way to dependably reverse-engineer a plane to define it's birth! Like.. plane DNA??


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