# Combination Squares - quality brands?



## Elizabeth (Oct 17, 2009)

So I have known for a while that I need a decent combination square. Right now all I have is a 4" try square (from Rockler I think) and a couple of 90 degree angles that I got from estate sales.

I was watching a boxmaking DVD and the person was using a Starett brand combination square to check a 45 degree miter. I looked them up online. WOAH they are expensive. But I know, quality tools bear a high price for the accuracy involved.

My questions - are there any quality brands other than Starett that I should be looking at? I see that Starett also makes a center head; do you have one and do you find it useful?

What length of rule do you find most useful for a combination square? I am mostly going to be making smallish projects that can be manipulated by one person, not huge items of furniture.


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## pintodeluxe (Sep 12, 2010)

I don't know that brand is so important, but there are some key features I like. 
-Etched ruler, rather than a coarsely stamped one.
-Markings in a gradation you can read, usually 16ths or 32nds 
-Locking knob that operates smoothly and stays put

I have 4", 6", and 12" combination squares. The 12" version is useful for marking mortises on 4 legs at once, but the 6" is a better all around tool because it fits in a shop apron.


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## Elizabeth (Oct 17, 2009)

I'm not hung up on brand names specifically but I don't know any other way to weed out the inaccurate squares.


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## BubbaIBA (Nov 23, 2011)

The question you have to ask….Am I going to keep woodworking or is it just a passing fad. If you plan to keep on keeping on the Starrett is a bargain. You will buy it once, unless abused it will be accurate and last your life and likely your grandchildren's life. I would start with the 12" because it will do everything the smaller one does plus. Then later add the 6" or even the 4", with both you will use the 6" more but it is limited where the 12' isn't.


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## timbertailor (Jul 2, 2014)

Woodpeckers and Incra both make great measurement and layout tools. Some specific to wood work.

See the review section for specific details on their products.

6 inch Carpenter's Square


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## Elizabeth (Oct 17, 2009)

Bubba - great question. I've wanted to do woodworking since middle school shop. Got my first tools about twelve years ago (mini lathe and scroll saw) but had to sell them when I went overseas. I'm back now and have spent the last five years kitting out a woodshop and I plan to stay in this house until I'm too old to safely use the machines anymore. So I am pretty sure I'm in it for the long haul.


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## intelligen (Dec 28, 2009)

I got some very helpful feedback when I asked about the cheaper Starrett squares a while back.


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## Elizabeth (Oct 17, 2009)

Thanks Rob, I'll check out that thread.

Brad, Hmm, they're running the one piece T-squares again right now…


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

I wouldn't make a big deal of it. I have one I got
at harbor freight. There are little tabs you can file
to adjust a combination square. I did this once
on the cheap square and it's accurate enough 
for woodworking.

What you get with a Starrett or other pro machinest
brand square is a real nice ruler part. Keep your
eye on estate sales and things and you'll find
all the machinest layout tools you want eventually,
often for a buck or two a piece.

Also you can look on ebay for Starrett and other
old brands. Even under years of tarnish on the
ruler part you'll be able to recognize finely engraved
markings and that's often the sign of quality. Anything
with a Japanese or German sounding maker name
on it is likely to be high quality. Brown & Sharpe
is another good maker.

Lee Valley tools is a good source for accurate layout
tools. They don't have the low prices they used to
have but the quality is always good from them and
they will never jerk you around if a product doesn't
meet your needs.


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## rick1955 (Jun 26, 2014)

I have a Starrett and Mitutoyo at home. I bought the grizzly combination square four piece set for work five years ago and actually like it better than the Starrett. It was only $40 at the time. Plus it's a four piece set with the circle center finder and angle gauge.


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## AandCstyle (Mar 21, 2012)

Elizabeth, if all you want is to check for 45*, you might consider drafting triangles. They are extremely accurate and won't break the bank. HTH


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## hoosier0311 (Nov 8, 2012)

I agree with Rick, I have the same Grizzly set and they are as accurate as any cut I make. : )


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

http://store.harryepstein.com/cp/Squares/7121-006.html








20.00 + shipping and handling.

Tough to beat.


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## DocSavage45 (Aug 14, 2010)

Elizabeth,

I feel the same way. WTF! found what I think is comparable and it won't rust if you have high humidity?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008R6NLFA/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I own the 12 inch and the next larger size.


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## knockknock (Jun 13, 2012)

My 2 cents:

A combination square is the Swiss army knife of marking and measuring tools. It's a ruler, straight edge, T-square, try-square, miter square, depth gauge, parallel gauge, square/miter fence/block and optionally a level. Everyone should have one.

How much you spend on one is up to you. If you like high quality tools or worry about accuracy, get an expensive one like Starrett or Browne and Sharpe. or get a mid quality/priced one like PEC.

Personally, although I like quality tools, a combination square is one of my most used and abused tools. So I went for the cheaper but good and accurate enough for me, Empire combination squares. I have the 6", 12" and 16" sizes, of which I use the 12" the most. The scales on the ones I have (not from Home Depot) are 16ths, 32nds and millimeters. The blades (ruler) are etched stainless steel, the anvils (head) are zinc (or zinc alloy) in case one gets wet (I really do abuse them). They come with levels and the rarely used scribe. Also they are cheap enough, that it won't break the bank should one get ruined.


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## GeneralDisorder (Sep 24, 2014)

I have an Empire, Starret, and a Brown and Sharp. The Empire is in my truck and now used the most. The Starret is going into my new shop tool cabinet along with the center head (which I never use). The Brown and Sharp is heavy built but slightly out of square and stays by my wood lathe.

The empire seems fine but I don't think it will last as long as the Starret. The little nub on the locking bolt wore out and Starret sent me another. It fit perfectly and I am the second owner so it's pretty old.


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## realcowtown_eric (Feb 4, 2013)

Starrett squares, with the angle gauge and the centre finder are typically available at flea markets in the 20-40 $ range. normally with the 12" rule, but there are 16 and 24" rules too. Just picked up a hardened 24" rule for 2 bucks at a GS (only tool in the sale!)

If you do buy a cheaper brand thinking that that little level vial is gonna be handy, test it before you rely on it.

Eric


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## TravisH (Feb 6, 2013)

I have used cheap ones to date (Johnson) but mine end up needing replacing about every 3 years as the no longer lock in place and then start to slide. I figure them being cheap, the amount of use, and my very "careful" use of them all play into the short life span.


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## skatefriday (May 5, 2014)

I have the Empire 6" square and it's never in my tool chest, 
and I keep a clean shop. It's just always being used for something.


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## tyvekboy (Feb 24, 2010)

> What length of rule do you find most useful for a combination square? I am mostly going to be making smallish projects that can be manipulated by one person, not huge items of furniture.


To answer that question:

I personally like a 6 inch combo square. However, I like the 4 inch double square (available at Rockler as well as Harry Epstein) so much that I have 4 in my shop. I also have (2) 6 inch combo squares and (2) 12 inch combo squares. I seldom use the 12 inch combo squares.


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

Brown and Sharp, or Mitutoyo, are both good alternatives. Consider watching for used ones in the classifieds section of forums such as this.


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## BLarge (Aug 29, 2011)

Everything is your shop starts with your marking and measuring tools. IMO, don't skimp on those tools, buy the Starrett- they are square when they are meant to be, smooth in operation, very nicely machined, the markings clear and crisp.

I use these all day everyday. Can't imagine doing with less.


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## skogie1 (Sep 1, 2014)

I suggest buying the Starett. I used Empire and Johnson and other brands for a long time until I realized that none of them were actually square and bought a Starett. Personally, I space out my purchases so that I can have quality equipment that I will never replace. My two cents. (Also, think of it this way, how often are you going to use the square? Plenty. It won't be like my pricey rabbet plane…...)


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## dhazelton (Feb 11, 2012)

Unless you're a patternmaker or working in the aerospace industry I have to believe that a Stanley is good enough. I mainly use one for marking out the 1/4 inch reveal when installing window and door trim. Other than that a 12 inch tri square (Empire I think) gets used with a circular saw when crosscutting boards. Both about $15 each.


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## BubbaIBA (Nov 23, 2011)

Reading the responses reminds me that not everyone on the board has the same interest.

I tend to look at things from the perspective of a furniture maker where everything starts from the markout and if it isn't square then the joints will not mate correctly with out gaps. I also learned long ago to buy the best the first time, it is cheaper in the long run as it will seldom need replacing and usually will not require workarounds.

One other factor, in the big picture of cost, the time spent making a project, the cost of materials for a project, the cost difference between the best tools and ones that are no so good is in reality a non factor. In fact all it takes is one out of square shoulder and the "el cheapo" now has cost more than the Starrett and you are still stuck with the "off" tool that will need repair or replacement.

Now having said all that I can remember flying the Masters of the Universe to Mexican fishing camps and the guides using a beer can with fishing line wrapped around it to cast their lures. They would catch twice as many fish in half the time as the customer in the same boat fishing with the best gear money could buy. Expertise and knowledge trumps all and maybe that is the case of the folks on here advocating Big Box and Empire squares.


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## jtm (Dec 2, 2013)

I just looked on Lowes.com, and the Swanson squares get atrocious reviews.

Figuring that the Empire equivalents at Home Depot would be regarded in similar fashion, I headed over to Homdepot.com.

Much to my surprise, the Empire has a 4.8/5 star rating from over 30 reviewers.

For $10, I'm heading over there to buy one today.

I have the grizzly machinists square set (all 4 are perfectly square - paid $18 at Amazon), and an older combination square from my Grandfather, which is not square at all.

Also, it's so easy to test a square, so you can check it before buying it.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

Don't forget to add to some drafting squares to your tool box. They are cheap and accurate. Get colored ones if possible, they're easer to see.


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## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

I have two of the empire combination squares and have been impressed with them. I think that any combination square that you get it is worth it to check the squareness with a machinist square. Both of my empire squares are right on 90°.


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## CharlieK (Jan 6, 2008)

I am sure there are good squares available, but I can't say which ones they are except for Starrett.

I have bought several different squares over the years and very few of them were accurate. Good enough for rough work, but not perfectly square.

I also have a Starrett that I inherited from my father that is at least 45 years old. This square has been used indoors and outdoors on all kinds of projects. It has been used, abused, and dropped off ladders. It is still the most accurate square that I have.


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## Elizabeth (Oct 17, 2009)

Thanks guys. I think I'm sold on the Starrett, since I hope to be doing this for another fifty years. The basic Starrett is about $77 on Amazon, so not quite as bad as the $130-$160 I was seeing when I first started looking. I might add the center head in the future.


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## Planeman40 (Nov 3, 2010)

I agree with Loren.

As well as woodworking, I am an amateur machinist hand have been for 55 years (bought my first metal lathe at the age of 17). I have Starrett measuring instruments and they are fine. However the day to day combination squares I use are from Harbor Freight and they are as square as my Starrett squares. It is easy to check the squareness of any square. Just mark a cut line on a board with a fine pencil or knife line, then flip the square over and see if the line and the square line up. If so, the square is good. Square is square is square. No sense in spending money if it is not necessary.

Planeman


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## wseand (Jan 27, 2010)

I only measure with a measuring tape/ruler and only in Millimeters. I rarely use a square for anything except to mark a line or check square on my tools. I find it best to use a "thinish" square and a marking knife/Awl Chisel. Get yourself a couple of accurate try squares and a good Metric Measuring tape/ruler. Also, get yourself a descent 6" Caliper. I wouldn't spend more then $20.00 on a adjustable square, just not accurate enough no matter who built it.


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## Ocelot (Mar 6, 2011)

You might look at the PEC tools as an alternative to Starrett. I don't think you will be disapointed.


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## BubbaIBA (Nov 23, 2011)

> Thanks guys. I think I m sold on the Starrett, since I hope to be doing this for another fifty years. The basic Starrett is about $77 on Amazon, so not quite as bad as the $130-$160 I was seeing when I first started looking. I might add the center head in the future.
> 
> - Elizabeth


Good show….It's a great journey

ken


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## bonesbr549 (Jan 1, 2010)

Wood pecker offers good layout tools. Starret are great

http://www.woodpeck.com/measuringhome.html


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## SCOTSMAN (Aug 1, 2008)

Mitutoyo is the best in my opinion. However these are tools for precision engineering, not woodworking,where the tollerences worked too do not requiring such precise tooling,IMHO and many others.If you really must have the very best *for other reasons* then look and keep looking on ebay.However a decent one without the massive price tag is sufficient IMHO obviously if China offers you one for $3.99 with free shipping don't expect it to be deadly accurate LOL. I wish you well remember it is woodworking where the eye is more important than anything !*within reason* of course I am not saying don't measure but does it really need to be within a hundred millonth of an inch.I'll let you decide. Alistair


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## Planeman40 (Nov 3, 2010)

I have a Mitutoyo 12 in.dial caliper that is what I use when I am trying to work to precision tolerances on my metal lathe and mill (and a Starrett micrometer when I am really splitting hairs). However mostly I use my Harbor Freight dial caliper for every day work as I find it is as accurate as the Mitutoyo in my experience. and if I drop it or crush it I'm not out a lot of money. I also have two electronic calipers, but I don't like buying batteries so they sit in a drawer. Like Alistair says, woodworking doesn't require the precision of metalworking. Whats more, any woodworker that claims he consistently works with wood to one thousandths of an inch doesn't know what he is really doing or is lying. My 2 cents after doing fine woodworking for nearly 50 years. Signing off now.

Planeman


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## chriswright (Nov 13, 2008)

I got a real nice one from Amazon for about $30. I like it more then my Starrat.


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## Jim Jakosh (Nov 24, 2009)

Lufkin, Starrett and Browne and Sharpe used to be the leaders, but there are other good ones these days that are listed above.
I have an old Lufkin set from the 60's but what ever you get, check it out by drawing a line and then flip it over and draw another line over the first one and they should coincide all the way or you have an out of square condition. The set usually has a square head , a centering head and a protractor. Check all the pieces out against a real good square to be sure they are accurate.

Jim


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## nicksmurf111 (Jun 6, 2014)

I just passed up a full starret set yeaterday for $60 at the flee market, including the square, protractor and center. I already have the first two. But that seemed like a good deal for all of them. I would highly recomend the Sterrett; the heads are made of steel as opposed to aluminum.


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## Elizabeth (Oct 17, 2009)

Heh, Nick I need to go to your flea market! There aren't any good ones around here. The occasional estate sale has something good, but not often.


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

There is a time and place for every tool.

For setting or checking 90 deg on a machine I use SPI engineers square. 
For 90 deg glue up I use a cheap johnson. (Checked at Home Depot with the eng square)

Arbor runout-.0001 starrett dial indicator

Miter slot to fence and blade- .001 Starret dial indicator

Vernier calipers or dial calipers when necessary.

For setting up machines, I go with the good stuff and get great results. For glue up and and whatever else that doesn't have to be perfect I use the cheap stuff.


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## Grandpa (Jan 28, 2011)

I have a Starrett square but have Mitutoyo micrometers. They machinists used Mitutoyo mics where I worked and I was able to buy a set from a guy that was laid off and about to pawn his tools. The square has the protractor head and the center head. I will tell you that I like the protractor a lot. If you ever put down base trim in a house you will find that the corners are not square. I can measure the angle and divide then cut it like it needs to be for a perfect fit. I like that feature.


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## nicksmurf111 (Jun 6, 2014)

Elizabeth, this flee market is actually the worse one I've ever been to. They usually have around 10 vendors on a nice day. But since it's right down the street from my house, I frequent it often. Usually I get stuff when people are selling their deceased relative's stuff that they don't need/want. Actually picked up a nice saw vise today.

There is another one that's like 30 miles away that is HUGE, but it's on Fridays and I can only make it once or twice a year (mainly because I'd blow through too much cash). I got a Starrett protractor head last time I went to this big one for $2 I think.

What I hate about flee markets is the amount of tools I choose not to buy, that I think about afterwards that I wish I would have purchased and hoarded. I've probably passed so many of the Starret squares up that it's not funny.


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