# For those wanting air staplers or brad nailers ...



## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

I see posts here all the time asking "what brad nailer / stapler to buy?" Here is a little known fact: brad nailers / staplers only work on softwoods and soft hardwoods (oak, walnut, cherry etc.)

In my shop we use a *lot* of jatoba ( AKA Brazilian Cherry ) and air nailers/staplers are useless against a *HARD* hardwood. Here are some pictures of a jatoba test board vs a brand new P-C stapler @ 120 PSI …










Notice that no staple drove more than 1/8" into the board - not much holding power there.

Here's a close up of the staple:










This staple was the first we drove and the tool kicked back hard. Holding the tool hard just produced lots of M staples.










On this same board you can also see a stainless steel 1/4-20 machine screw threaded about 3/8" into the tapped and threaded jatoba. None have been able to break the threads even with a power screwdriver.



















M


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

You've posted this nonsense before. After one of your posts, I went to my shop and shot staples, 18 ga brads and even 23 ga pins into ipe without a hitch. Explain that to me.


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## robscastle (May 13, 2012)

deleted


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## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

Rich,

Just what part of the pictures is nonsense? Do you think these pics are fake? The stapler works fine on pine & cherry @ 120 PSI, but the pictures tell the jatoba story. Post pics of your ipe test board with a 1/2" staple driven flat if you can.

The nail shown was not driven, it was predrilled with the proper pilot hole and could only be driven in a short distance before stopping. When we tried to drive a 6p nail in with a hammer it didn't penetrate more than 1/8" before bending.










M


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## Fresch (Feb 21, 2013)

My only problem was due to inserting the wrong size, too small 1 size, jamming.


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

So, is this a review for a PC stapler?
If so, what model are you using for your tests?


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## dhazelton (Feb 11, 2012)

Since it's mostly used for flooring someone must be able to drive a staple into it.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Just what part of the pictures is nonsense? Do you think these pics are fake? The stapler works fine on pine & cherry @ 120 PSI, but the pictures tell the jatoba story. Post pics of your ipe test board with a 1/2" staple driven flat if you can.
> 
> - Madmark2


Fiirst, 120 PSI is way too high. I'd go 90 max. Also, I didn't say the photo was fake. I'm sure it's real, but not representative of how a stapler should perform in any wood, hard or soft.

My issue is with this nonsense you opened your post with and that you've posted before:

*I see posts here all the time asking "what brad nailer / stapler to buy?" Here is a little known fact: brad nailers / staplers only work on softwoods and soft hardwoods (oak, walnut, cherry etc.)*

I proved you wrong back then by shooting staples, brads and pins into ipe. You didn't respond to that and now you're at it again.

Anyway, enough is enough. Here is a 9/16" T50 staple shot into honey mesquite at 60 PSI through a cheap Chinese SureBonder brand stapler. I think it proves your opening statement was nonsense and that maybe you're doing something wrong or using a defective stapler. For the record, honey mesquite has a hardness of 2,340 Janka and your jatoba is 2,690. The ipe I used last time and had no problem shooting staples and pins into (which you said couldn't be done) has a hardness of 3,510.


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## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

" For the record, honey mesquite has a hardness of *2,340* Janka and your *jatoba is 2,690*."

Like I said, jatoba is ~15% harder than what you're using … you prove nothing by successfully driving into a softer wood. Duh.

M


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Like I said, jatoba is ~15% harder than what you re using … you prove nothing by successfully driving into a softer wood. Duh.
> 
> - Madmark2


You can't be serious…lol. Talk about clueless. What about the ipe at 3,510? Do I need to post a photo? And if I do, what lame excuse will you come up with for that one?

No, I've proven my point. You have no idea what you're talking about and obviously don't know how to use air tools since you're using 120psi.

P.S. You never have explained why you post Madmark's info about laser engravers as if it were your own when your name is Madmark2? Seems kind of shady.


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## jacksdvds (Jun 13, 2015)

"MY daddy can whip your daddy" Come on guys, stop the nonsense and agree to disagree! This forum is to ask for or offer help. not have a political debate.


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## Monty151 (Nov 1, 2018)

deleted


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> "MY daddy can whip your daddy" Come on guys, stop the nonsense and agree to disagree! This forum is to ask for or offer help. not have a political debate.
> 
> - Jack Lewis


Agreeing to disagree is about opinions, not facts, Jack. This is a fact. What is political about it anyway? Or related to daddy? You're kind of out there on this one…lol

Besides, I am offering help - I'm helping less experienced LJs avoid being duped by foolish nonsense such as the OP is trying to spread.


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## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

So the staples are not driving because the air pressure is too high? Really? So if I turn the pressure down it will drive deeper ? How about if I disconnect the air entirely? By your logic that should drive 
deepest of all?

Yes, post a pic of a staple driven flat in ipe at 60 PSI.

If I'm wrong then where did I get the pictures (facts). You're saying that the pictures and results are not facts and that only one as smart as you can use an air stapler. Talk about using opinions as facts. Sheesh!

M


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> So the staples are not driving because the air pressure is too high? Really? So if I turn the pressure down it will drive deeper ? How about if I disconnect the air entirely? By your logic that should drive
> deepest of all?
> 
> Yes, post a pic of a staple driven flat in ipe at 60 PSI.
> ...


Good grief. You just don't get it. You don't understand the mechanics of air pressure and you don't seem to be able to understand that I never questioned your photo. I simply said that the claim in your opening sentence is nonsense and I proved it.

Here we go. Ipe at 70 PSI, 9/16" staple:


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## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

What is the "issue with air pressure"? Less is more? I've used nailers that start at 140 PSI. How can you declare I know nothing about air tools based on 120 PSI? Are you asserting that all staplers / nailers run best at 60 PSI? Who's "clueless" about air tools?

Also, how thick is that ipe? If its not thicker than the staple then its not a fair trial. Do it on a piece of 3/4" jatoba or ipe and you win.
There is a big difference between thru and into …

M


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Also, how thick is that ipe? If its not thicker than the staple then its not a fair trial. Do it on a piece of 3/4" jatoba or ipe and you win.
> There is a big difference between thru and into …
> 
> - Madmark2


LMAO. You're unbelievable.

OK, are you ready for this? Prepare yourself. It's about to get real.

*I WIN!!!*

Staple 9/16"; Ipe board 15/16" thick; 70 PSI; Cheap Chinese pneumatic T50 stapler; Staple flush with surface.










What next? Do I have to measure the moisture content of the ipe? Maybe the phase of the moon affected it.

Now, back to using Madmark's laser engraver posts as your own…


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## Monty151 (Nov 1, 2018)




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## GrantA (Jul 19, 2014)

PSI and CFM are 2 different animals. 120psi through a 1/4 hose would be out performed in almost every way by 90psi through a 3/8-1/2" hose. Also, the bent staples may be of lesser quality. I've heard stories of staples from HF being bent like this. I've never had issues with bostitch or senco. I've also never tried stapling extremely hard woods but felt these facts worth noting


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## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

You're right. I am too stupid to run an air nailer.

I used to have the MADMARK account until we had a crash and lost all the passwords. Unable to get to the MADMARK account I had to create the MADMARK2 account. Go tell Cricket. The laser stuff is in MY shop under either account.

Also the ipe I've used has been much darker and tighter grained than your pics.
The large growth rings in your pic scream softer wood vs the tight almost invisible grain in jatoba or ipe I've used.

M


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

You seem to have missed my question asking what type of stapler you are using?


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Also the ipe I ve used has been much darker and tighter grained than your pics.
> The large growth rings in your pic scream softer wood vs the tight almost invisible grain in jatoba or ipe I ve used.
> 
> - Madmark2


I was waiting for that one. No, it's real ipe. Nice try though. A true act of desperation. Listen, you can refuse to believe whatever you want. I've proven my point.

I studied fluid dynamics (yes, air is a fluid) and various other courses in mechanical engineering in my undergraduate program. For the record, it's not the pressure directly, it's the resultant acceleration of the nail or staple that can cause deflection and failure. However, it's the pressure that you control, and 120 PSI is far more than you need for a stapler, nailer, etc. Also, you're more likely to have a failure shooting the staple parallel to the grain than across it. It's just the physical nature of the wood. You had failures in both directions though, so the point is moot.


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## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

Ipe decking from Google: 









Note no staples or nails used.










Ipe end grain, again from Google.

M


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## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

Grant may have hit the nail on the head (no pun intended). While the air pressure supplied to the plunger in the tool is important, that air pressure decays as the plunger travels down and drives the staple. So, if you're flow is choked by your air hose, then when you pull the trigger and that plunger starts travelling downwards, your pressure is dropping exponentially as the plunger travels. Now, if your supply is such that air can be pumped in fast enough to make up for that pressure decay in the cylinder, you have more force through the full stroke.

So even though MM is starting at a higher pressure, the "follow through" pressure could be nearing zero. And Rich is on starting with 70 psi but, if he's using a larger air hose and has a compressor reservoir at a significantly higher pressure, he may be nearly maintaining the 70 psi through the full stroke.

I'm not saying this IS the reason for the very different results. Just a possibility.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> So even though MM is starting at a higher pressure, the "follow through" pressure could be nearing zero. And Rich is on starting with 70 psi but, if he s using a larger air hose and has a compressor reservoir at a significantly higher pressure, he may be nearly maintaining the 70 psi through the full stroke.
> 
> - HokieKen


It's a 50 foot 3/8" hose connected to a California Air Tools 4610 compressor. Not exactly a high CFM model.

I figure you're dealing with less than a couple of cc of air volume shooting a brad, pin or staple. The exact number is probably available somewhere for each model. Given that there are over 28,000 cc in a cf, I doubt air starvation is a factor.


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## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

was using a big shop compressor (stand up 50 gal) with 3/8 lines. run a bunch of air tools in the mech shop.

M


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## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

The quick connects used on the hose and tool can also be the culprit. Some quick connects have really small orifices that will choke your flow no matter what the supply or hose size.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Ipe decking from Google:
> 
> - Madmark2


That's exactly the color of my ipe when it's sanded and oiled. The wood had been sitting on my lumber rack for over a year, collecting dust. I didn't know you were going to be so absurd about it, or I would have oiled it before taking the photos.

"Never argue with an idiot. He'll drag you down to his level and beat you with experience."


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## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

Oh well, sounds like y'all are on level footing there. That's all I got ;-)


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## GrantA (Jul 19, 2014)

Fittings can severely limit cfm too, just like a chain it's only as good as the weakest link. You fellas can each mail me a sample chunk and I'll test them side by side with senco guns & fasteners using my new 5hp 60 gallon compressor. I'll video it and post it up


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> was using a big shop compressor (stand up 50 gal) with 3/8 lines. run a bunch of air tools in the mech shop.
> 
> - Madmark2


Wow, so your big compressor couldn't match the results of my little 1 hp, 4.6 gallon, 3 CFM pup. That makes it even more sad.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Fittings can severely limit cfm too, just like a chain it s only as good as the weakest link. You fellas can each mail me a sample chunk and I ll test them side by side with senco guns & fasteners using my new 5hp 60 gallon compressor. I ll video it and post it up
> 
> - GrantA


No, better yet, you ship me your compressor and guns and I'll let you know how it goes  You'll get them back. I promise.


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## Kazooman (Jan 20, 2013)

Man, oh man. This is more fun than the monthly SawStop debate,

My question: What happens if you fire the stapler into a hot dog?


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## GrantA (Jul 19, 2014)

2 things are glaringly obvious in this thread 
1- MM has some exceptionally hard Jatoba and possibly some craptastic staples
2- MM & Rich have exceptionally hard heads. I get it I know engineers, I think you might both be right and also wrong. Does any of that really matter?


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## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

if the pressure at the nailer was low for the follow through it wouldn't have the force to bend into M's. the plunger would just stop. look at the staple pics the legs just can't drive past 1/8" and the follow through forces the staple to fold up due to the pressure. It's not a nailer issue, its a material issue with jatoba. Can someone with a piece of jatoba see if they get the same results?

Rich seems to assert that his tools work better than mine and I'm bending staples because my pressure isn't *low* enough and that I'm too stupid to run a nailer. how do you explain my results?


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## JADobson (Aug 14, 2012)

> 2- MM & Rich have exceptionally hard heads. I get it I know engineers, I think you might both be right and also wrong. Does any of that really matter?
> - GrantA


I wonder how far the staples would go into those exceptionally hard heads? haha. JK


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## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

That's a good point MM2. The bent stapler suggests that either (a) the Jatoba is too hard, (b) the staples are too soft or© the stapler is poorly designed with a small, centered plunger. If Rich's stapler has a wider plunger that drives the staple over the legs rather than in the center, that alone could explain the discrepancy.


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## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

> ... I get it I know engineers, I think you might both be right and also wrong. Does any of that really matter?
> 
> - GrantA


If you know engineers then you know that it does matter. A lot. ;-)


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## GrantA (Jul 19, 2014)

True Kenny


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

I tried to put a staple into Oak. 
It was so hard, nothing I tried could get it in, staple just kept bending.


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## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

That's because Oak is awesome jbay. You're lucky it didn't spit the staple back at you.


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## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

answer is … A!


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> I tried to put a staple into Oak.
> It was so hard, nothing I tried could get it in, staple just kept bending.
> 
> - jbay


You're clearly using a 20 lb hammer. That's way to big. Give a 16 oz a try.


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## therealSteveN (Oct 29, 2016)

> 2 things are glaringly obvious in this thread
> 1- MM has some exceptionally hard Jatoba and possibly some craptastic staples
> 2- MM & Rich have exceptionally hard heads. I get it I know engineers, I think you might both be right and also wrong. Does any of that really matter?
> 
> ...


Clearly the best post yet.


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## GrantA (Jul 19, 2014)

I just put an 18ga brad into mild steel 1/4" plate. Almost flush.


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## Monty151 (Nov 1, 2018)

Grant is the winner here.


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## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

Grant, at 30 PSI I'll bet!


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## GrantA (Jul 19, 2014)

25psi, that way I don't need safety glasses. Had a beer in the other hand. Easy peasy

Yall come on over to the swap thread, we LOVE shenanigans!


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## therealSteveN (Oct 29, 2016)

Sure enough, now I wouldn't have given that any odds at all. Whats the janka on that stuff???

*Ipe is 3680+-

Jatoba = 2350

WO is soft stuff at 1360*

I've directly nailed, and air nailed Ipe many a time, didn't know I was doing Super Human work at the time. Senco, Cincinnati made, in 16 gauge. You can tell the Cinci tools, vs the TaiChiwan junk if the name Senco is embossed it's Cinci made, if it's a sticker it's crap.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and suggest the nailer, and of course the nails themselves are gonna be the difference in what people are finding, and OP needs to dump those staples, and just bury that PC nailer, along with that piece of case hardened Jatoba he is using….....


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## GrantA (Jul 19, 2014)

I'd really like to check out that hardened Jatoba, look at my bar gauge project and tell me it wouldn't be sweet for the blocks?? Since it will take threads and all

And Steve is right new Senco just like new PC is honestly all in the same league as harbor freight tools I'm afraid. I'll take an old used one anyday!


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

> And Steve is right *new Senco* just like new PC is honestly all in the same league as harbor freight tools I m afraid. I ll take an old used one anyday!
> 
> - GrantA


I agree!
Not used for more than a couple of months. Waiting to put in a new driver.
(I guess I shouldn't have tried nailing Jatoba)


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## jacksdvds (Jun 13, 2015)

> 2 things are glaringly obvious in this thread
> 1- MM has some exceptionally hard Jatoba and possibly some craptastic staples
> 2- MM & Rich have exceptionally hard heads. I get it I know engineers, I think you might both be right and also wrong. Does any of that really matter?
> 
> ...


That's what I said!


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## MikeDilday (Feb 21, 2017)

Why are the staples all bent down in the middle? Something is going wrong with your tool. What make/model stapler is it?


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> I tried to put a staple into Oak.
> It was so hard, nothing I tried could get it in, staple just kept bending.
> 
> 
> ...


Was that some Alder Oak??


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

What an amusing thread. I want to go shoot brads and staples into ipe for no good reason.


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

> Was that some Alder Oak??
> 
> - AlaskaGuy


It's called Oalkder, grown specifically in Arkabama.


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## MSquared (Aug 20, 2018)

'Ya know, the alder I get…...


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## robscastle (May 13, 2012)

Why stop with just wood? (#2 post revisuted)










Needed the vice to get it out










Then stopped for a cuppa


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

This is for Mark

Hardwood trees include alder, balsa, beech, hickory, mahogany, maple, oak, teak, and walnut.

Alder is rated on the Janka scale at 590 and Balsa wood is rated way under that. I think my staplers and nailers with handle any of those hardwoods.


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## woodbutcherbynight (Oct 21, 2011)

> Was that some Alder Oak??
> 
> - AlaskaGuy
> 
> ...


ROFL


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## Monty151 (Nov 1, 2018)

Question here; can anyone tell me what the Janka rating for Grants mild steel 1/4" plate is?


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## GrantA (Jul 19, 2014)

It must only be about 683 Monty


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## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

> Question here; can anyone tell me what the Janka rating for Grants mild steel 1/4" plate is?
> 
> - Monty151


21519.91


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## Monty151 (Nov 1, 2018)

No wonder it went in almost flush with only 25psi.


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## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

> i It s not a nailer issue, its a material issue with jatoba. Can someone with a piece of jatoba see if they get the same results?
> 
> - Madmark2


I don't think anyone humored you on this request, and I couldn't resist.
3/4" thick Jatoba.
3 Try's…
23g Pin with a Grex. 18g brad with a crappy old Bex and a N15 staple with a Senco stapler.
All @ 120psi
Bobs yer uncle!


















Don't even think about questioning whether it's really Jatoba. I've probably run more of that crap though my shop than you've ever seen.


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## robscastle (May 13, 2012)

Don't even think about questioning whether it's really Jatoba.

Actually it lloks a bit like some of the hollow laminated timber you get from IKEA !

I should do some tests on my Red Ironbark Posts but I dont want a 50mm brad in my finger again!


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## WoodenDreams (Aug 23, 2018)

All air tools are not the same, same goes to staplers and brad nailers. different brand tools have their own recommended air settings. 70 psi is the same psi in 1/8", 1/4" or 1/2" hose. and 90 psi is the same in 1/8", 1/4" or 1/2" hose. The difference is how fast the psi is depleted, and rebuilt to that pressure. the smaller hose has a harder time maintaining the pressure verses a larger hose because of volume in the hose, It also makes a difference on the air tank reserve, 3, 5, 10, 25, 50, 150, 200, 350, 1000 gallon tank. I worked at a place in the 80's that had three 1000 gallon tanks stung together, this guaranteed no loose of pressure at all times, each with it's own 150 psi compressor.And it also makes a difference on the size of compressor, and what you have for a regulator setting. You need a air system to back up what tool your using. Stay away from the 100psi and 125 psi compressors. You might be saving money, but your doing yourself a disservice. A compressor should be 150 psi, even if it has a 3 gallon tank, rated for the size of the air tank. and a regulator to cut the pressure back at the hose. Also most tools have a regulator in the tool. What do you think that dial or switch is. On my air tank I write with permanent marker the brand tool & tool type & model #, with it's minimum and maximum psi ratings. This way I can set the regulator at the coupler feeding the hose. Proper setting makes a difference. The regulator dial on the tool is only for depth control. Doesn't matter if it's soft wood or a dense wood, set the tool air properly and your good to go………….You also need to use the proper Brad nailer or stapler. The proper staples or brads, made with the strength you need, is the staples made with aluminum, low or high grade quality steel. Most people think one size fits all, nope.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

Mark

While people ask about "which stapler, brad nailer and/or 23 ga pin nailers often I don't remember anyone clarifying for use on Jatoba or other extremely hard woods.

I have a 23 ga pin nailer that will shoot pins in one inch thick bloodwood rate 2900 on the Janka scale.


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

Thanks for the explanation WoodenDreams!


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