# Tired of unsafe client requests



## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

So, this actually happened today… It never ceases to amaze me how a client thinks that they can just sign a disclaimer and have us build things that are inherently unsafe.

The client wants an under-counter wine fridge built in to their master bath cabinets.
The design has gone through a couple revision cycles, but they had not yet provided the model number and specs for the fridge.

Finally, they provide the specs and it is not an appropriate model for the application.

They decided that a $350 big-box-store freestanding fridge will work rather than the proper $1100 built in unit.
So, I circle the relevant portion of the installation manual and break the bad news to the client.










Email exchange as follows; (Names omitted)
------
(to Our Sales Lady),

The client may want to reconsider their choice of UC Ref here.
I could add 1.6" to each side and call it a day, but they may not like that look.

(from) DS (Me)
------

(to Our Sales Lady), 
I have (the client) copied. We discussed and they would like the 1.6" space on either side. *They would like to add a trim piece that can be installed "aftermarket" to cover the space. They understand it is not per manufacturer recommendations and will accept the liability.* Can this be done?

(from the Client's Designer)
--------

(to) DS (Me)
Can we do this? Please see below

(from Our Sales Lady)
------

At this point I was beside myself and had just about had enough.

-------

(to Our Sales Lady)
So, they will accept the liability for the appliance burning up? 
Or, for their house burning down?
Or, for the injuries and potential deaths of the firefighters trying to put out the house fire and the resulting negligent homicide criminal charges and wrongful death lawsuits?

Please be more specific.

I'm pretty sure the lawyers will blame us, as the experts who should've known better.

Just sayin'.

(from) DS (Me)

----------

Just remember, no waiver or disclaimer can excuse reckless endangerment of others and can never be used as rationale to install something in a manner contrary to the manufacturers warnings and safety requirements.

The worst case scenario can and does happen all the time and many a builder has paid the price for thinking, it'll be okay this one time.

e.g.
My former business partner's $5M home burned down 15 years after it was built because the original builder did not use triple insulated pipe to exhaust a gas water heater and it took that long to char the wooden rafters enough to ignite.

And yes, it cost the builder everything he had and he was lucky there were no injuries or deaths as a result of his negligence.

Don't be that guy.

I can't be the only one who always has to look like the (expletive) jerk trying to protect people from themselves.
I gets old pretty fast.

Whew! Thanks for letting me vent.


----------



## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

Water heater is quite a but different than a fridge . The warnings on a water heater are "or else your house may burn down", the warning on the fridge is more "or else fridge may not cool as well and compressor life will be shortened". But, if you don't feel like doing it, don't.


----------



## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

i agree you were right in walking away,i would have too.in todays world there are plenty of sleezy lawyers that will be glad too take everything youve worked hard for because even though they said were ok with it,there gonna show that your the professional and should have known better!good call.


----------



## HowardAppel (Feb 3, 2010)

Well said.


----------



## Scap (Aug 7, 2018)

I'm not comfortable with zero clearance flue pipe touching combustibles. If that builder had common b-vent touching wood, he deserved that lawsuit. There's a reason the manufacturers offer thimbles, flashings, etc.


----------



## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Even my wife doesn't understand when I get pissed about contractors (licensed or others) who don't cover the asses of their clients. Like I tell her, people hired me under the presumption I knew what I was doing.

That means, I was hired because I knew what I was doing. And that means, I knew what was safe, what was not, what would or was likely to fail and what wasn't, what would keep the project near the the shape it was in when it was built and what wouldn't.

Examples of contractor ignorance or even stupidity around my home, from before I showed up: Concrete laid right up to the bottom of the MDF siding, a wrap around deck tied straight to the 2x sill for the second story, 14 gauge outlets, . . . .


----------



## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

Even if you have all the wavers signed and notorized, that may not prevent them from suing. You might still win in court but not without considerable time and expense to fight it. Walk away.


----------



## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

Last year, a client wanted a tv above his fireplace inset into a new recessed niche.

But, because the fireplace was block and brick, he couldn't get the recess he wanted so the builder furred out the wall with 2×4 to create the tv niche, but, basically this extended the existing firebox. They framed and drywalled with standard gypsum right up to the edge of the firebox opening and called it a day.

They wanted us to build a wood surround, mantle and tv enclosure for this dangerous set up.

Fireplace regulations are some of the most strict of all building codes and this was an extremely dangerous arrangement.
I really had to become the a-hL because I felt the clients' lives were in genuine and immediate danger.

I was prepared to go after the contractor's license until they finally saw the light and took corrective action.

The other one I get *all the time* is people wanting to enclose a washer and dryer in a cabinet inside the master closet and not wanting to install the proper upper and lower door vents. (They are not attractive to the aesthetic)

If I had a nickel for every time a client said to me, "we'll only run the dryer with the doors open,.."

That might work for a while, but it only takes that one time when the niece is house sitting to destroy lives forever.
It's just not worth it.

And sure, a refrigerator is most likely to just die an early death in my current scenario, but it also has the potential to overheat and burst into flames.

First, and foremost, I am a trained product engineer. We have an axiom that says that "if it can happen, it probably will happen." So you design out the hazards in your product under the assumption that the worst case scenario could totally become your reality.


----------



## CaptainKlutz (Apr 23, 2014)

Stick to your training *DS*. Would do same thing. 
Built-in appliances need to rated for zero clearance.

Sounds like customer does not know how the cheap mini-frig works? 
They don't have condenser coils in bottom with fan to provide solid temp control like units designed to be built-in. The condenser coils are hidden and attached to the side walls of the box. With no air flow, they don't cool worth a dam. Worse, anything touching the sides on those units will be hot. 
Took ~6 months, but SWMBO fused together a box of candles sitting right next to a wine frig from same mfg in our house. Can always tell by sound when wife has tried to store/hide something skinny next to wine frig, as the compressor is noisy when condenser is too hot.

Cheers!


----------



## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

I wise man told me once, "there will be a fire here tomorrow that will have at least one fatality". "The following day you will be in court to explain your actions or inactions, now how do you want to proceed?"


----------



## tomsteve (Jan 23, 2015)

id drop this client like a hot rock.


----------



## bigblockyeti (Sep 9, 2013)

I'd do it but have them put $20M in escrow for when something goes wrong (with interest going to me). Come on, another $750 for the right appliance and in a bathroom no less shouldn't be that big of a burden, if it is, they need to take a step back and reassess.


----------



## HarveyM (Nov 11, 2012)

Tell them you'll do it with the waiver, but you'd like the opinion of the building inspector right after you get paid.


----------



## WillliamMSP (Jan 3, 2014)

Ha. If you're going to get chintzy on the wine cooler in the bathroom, maybe you don't need a wine cooler in the bathroom.


----------



## hockeyfan_019 (Jul 2, 2020)

> Tell them you ll do it with the waiver, but you d like the opinion of the building inspector right after you get paid.
> 
> - HarveyM


I was actually just thinking about this. Perhaps this is in a municipality without the need for a BP with such things, but no way it would pass. It certainly wouldn't meet the code, and could also violate local regulations.

In my experience the code can be cited as a means to help protect hapless cheapskates from themselves, and then it's not you being the bad guy in a way that may risk future business opportunities. Typically though I have to explain that it really is a "code", not like the pirate code, where it's just "guidelines". Inspectors seem to have no adversity to rejecting an installation if it even has any hint of a violation, especially if you are working in a location where he has a family member that you underbid for the project in the first place.


----------



## Wags999 (Jan 16, 2021)

In my 30 years in the cabinet business. some of the best jobs were the ones I walked away from. Those that did take on those jobs grew to regret it later. Trust your gut, do what is best for YOU. Today there should not be a lack of work.

Lack of air circulation will not only shorten life of the unit, but also cause overheating and potential fire issues.


----------



## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

I've used the code against a contractor who was doing something I didn't think was right. I simply called the inspector and told him my problem and he tagged it when he came out for the inspection. No reason you can't call them to see if they will weigh in as well.


----------



## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

> I ve used the code against a contractor who was doing something I didn t think was right. I simply called the inspector and told him my problem and he tagged it when he came out for the inspection. No reason you can t call them to see if they will weigh in as well.
> 
> - Lazyman


I do the same. I just make a phone call.

I don't get worked up anymore.


----------



## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

> I m not comfortable with zero clearance flue pipe touching combustibles. If that builder had common b-vent touching wood, he deserved that lawsuit. There s a reason the manufacturers offer thimbles, flashings, etc.
> 
> - Scap


FYI, yes it was a common single wall pipe screwed directly to the rafters in the attic with a drywall screw.. and yes, he did deserve the lawsuit.


----------



## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

You did the right thing, for sure. When we bought this house we're in now, I noticed that the free-standing wood burning stove in the family room had a dormer vent instead of a flue, and the pipe through the roof was single-wall. Shingles around the vent were all curled up from the heat.


----------



## Kudzupatch (Feb 3, 2015)

Can't add much but I did Home Inspections for several years. Most of our area is rural and building code enforcement so in effect, no building code. So you see lots of strange stuff. Call it out, warn the client and you can tell they are not the least bit concerned. Scary!

Had one fellow call, discuss what he wanted and basically tried to tell me I was wrong and this is how it should be done. I told him I didn' think I should work for him and he needed to find someone else.

Long silence and he just had to ask why. So I told him.


----------



## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

I should add this job sounds to much akin to those I've gone out to bid on, to be told how terrible ALL [the] OTHER contractors were. Of course, in my gut, I just just knew I wouldn't become one of those ALL OTHER contractors, if I took the job.

Yeah, right.


----------



## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

Now that I think about it, who the hell wants a wine rack in a bathroom? Do you want some wine? I'll get a bottle from the bathroom when I go.


----------



## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

So it goes with the 900 CFM fan I installed in the kitchen - I tried to explain how important it is to have air intake of near that amount. Of course, the answer was, I'll just open a window when I run it.

Well, there you have it, and we could even crank the air movement up another 1000 CFM to make sure the fish never smell up the house.

To be safe, just in case, we can put a sticker on the back side of the intake, where it wouldn't be too obnoxious, but would warn about the negative pressure created and the effect it can have on the structural integrity of building in the future.



> The other one I get *all the time* is people wanting to enclose a washer and dryer in a cabinet inside the master closet and not wanting to install the proper upper and lower door vents. (They are not attractive to the aesthetic)
> 
> If I had a nickel for every time a client said to me, "we'll only run the dryer with the doors open,.."
> 
> ...


----------



## LeeRoyMan (Feb 23, 2019)

I would just build it with the 1.6" gap as recommended by the manufacturer. 
What they do later is none of my business.


----------



## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

And when the client refuses to pay because of the gap? ...


----------



## LeeRoyMan (Feb 23, 2019)

> And when the client refuses to pay because of the gap? ...
> 
> - Madmark2


Did you read the response from the (Sales Lady)?
.

* "We discussed and they would like the 1.6" space on either side. " *


----------



## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

> So it goes with the 900 CFM fan I installed in the kitchen - I tried to explain how important it is to have air intake of near that amount. Of course, the answer was, I ll just open a window when I run it.
> 
> - Kelly


Don't worry, if they forget, it will just pull the CO and air needed through the gas water heater and furnace chimneys. They'll sleep really well that night.


----------



## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

> And when the client refuses to pay because of the gap? ...
> 
> - Madmark2
> 
> ...


Yes, I don't have a problem with the space, even though it is not referring to a built in application, but rather, 1.6 inches on a freestanding install.

What I have a problem with is them wanting us to supply a trim to fill in the space after they have an inspection.

Now, when they do the forensic analysis of how the fire started, will it matter that we didn't technically violate the code, or will they just see that that fridge was improperly enclosed with cabinetry?

It can't be properly justified.


----------



## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

Oh, and for those who wonder why someone would want a beverage cooler in the master bathroom, you need to understand that this is more like a master en-suite. There is a gigantic archway about 14' high leading from the bedroom into the bath with a full walk-in shower and garden tub (about 20' long together). This leads to a massive master closet. The combo of bedroom, bathroom and closet are about the size of my whole house.

So, if you want your chilled beverages for a romantic evening, or just a cold one to watch the Buccaneers lose the NFC championship to the Packers from the comfort of your bed, it is still pretty close to hand.


----------



## tvrgeek (Nov 19, 2013)

If they are unreasonable in requirements, they will likely be unreasonable on delivery or later. The kind of people who don't listen and demand a bad choice are the kind that sue you when it turns out wrong. Run, don't walk away.


----------



## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

Can we just step back here for a second and take a look at the elephant in the corner? Who TF needs a wine fridge in the BATHROOM?!


----------



## WillliamMSP (Jan 3, 2014)

> Oh, and for those who wonder why someone would want a beverage cooler in the master bathroom, you need to understand that this is more like a master en-suite. There is a gigantic archway about 14' high leading from the bedroom into the bath with a full walk-in shower and garden tub (about 20' long together). This leads to a massive master closet. The combo of bedroom, bathroom and closet are about the size of my whole house.
> 
> - DS


Okay, but with such a large space, encompassing the bedroom and bathroom, I'd think that there would be a half-dozen more appropriate spots to cram it. Then again, I would think that anyone that can afford that kind of space wouldn't balk at an extra 700 friggin' dollars for the right fridge, so my calibration is obviously off.


----------



## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

> Can we just step back here for a second and take a look at the elephant in the corner? Who TF needs a wine fridge in the BATHROOM?!
> 
> - HokieKen


I know, right? It should be a beer fridge.


----------



## Scap (Aug 7, 2018)

> I m not comfortable with zero clearance flue pipe touching combustibles. If that builder had common b-vent touching wood, he deserved that lawsuit. There s a reason the manufacturers offer thimbles, flashings, etc.
> 
> - Scap
> 
> ...


B-Vent is double wall, but still gets hot.

Single wall is just all kinds of wrong.


----------



## bigblockyeti (Sep 9, 2013)

> Can we just step back here for a second and take a look at the elephant in the corner? Who TF needs a wine fridge in the BATHROOM?!
> 
> - HokieKen


I completely agree, it's asinine. A kegerator make far more sense.


----------



## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

I'd put the humidor in that space, built in humidity and hell, if you're striking a match anyway might as well not waste it.


----------



## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

The stair and railing industry is no different.
Ok….if we have to do it that way….and after it passes inspection you can come back and change it to the way we want it!
Lololololololo…...uhhmmm….no.


----------



## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> Oh, and for those who wonder why someone would want a beverage cooler in the master bathroom, you need to understand that this is more like a master en-suite. There is a gigantic archway about 14' high leading from the bedroom into the bath with a full walk-in shower and garden tub (about 20' long together). This leads to a massive master closet. The combo of bedroom, bathroom and closet are about the size of my whole house.
> 
> - DS
> 
> ...


+1 exactly if their spending that much money for gods sake do it right.but i guess as they say thats how they got rich.i drink wine pretty much everyday but i agree who the hell needs a wine frig in the bathroom!


----------



## CaptainKlutz (Apr 23, 2014)

> Who TF needs a wine fridge in the BATHROOM?!


 Before DS even posted it, I imagined a large master bed/bath suite.

First thing my wife asked for when we installed a Jacuzzi, was 'can we put a wine frig next to it?. I don't want to run naked thorough house to get another bottle with kids in house.' 
AKA - Happy wife, Happy life!

Plus - Obviously we have a lack of wealthy philanthropist (or wannabe?) at LJ?

You must have wine frig in bedroom suite. Then your house service staff can stock it with: champagne, strawberries, & whip cream; when wife is out of town and you send the staff home early on boys night out. Last thing you want is your 'significant other for the evening' to cool off/disappear; while you run to other side of 5000+ sqft home for libations. 

PS - When I was single and between SO; kept vintage port, and chocolates in my master suite wine frig, for when the sophisticated she-devil followed me home. Ah, those where fun days…..

Enjoy the mental imagery break from the stupid human tricks that started this thread. 
:-(0)


----------



## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> Who TF needs a wine fridge in the BATHROOM?! Before DS even posted it, I imagined a large master bed/bath suite.
> 
> First thing my wife asked for when we installed a Jacuzzi, was can we put a wine frig next to it?. I don t want to run naked thorough house to get another bottle with kids in house.
> AKA - Happy wife, Happy life!
> ...


i agree with the frig near the spa,but in my case swmbo doesn't use the spa so she refills me as needed.yes im spoiled!!!


----------



## Knockonit (Nov 5, 2017)

I built monster customs 12k and up for quite a few years, and it would surprise you the things we have been asked to incorporate into a home, in a garage, in a guest house, under the house, ect. 
built one joint that had a 3500 sq ft bunker under the residence, complete with generator and its own stand alone utilities other than its own power.

even built a few nice size ponds (couple acres,) so they could raise their fish, their ducks, or the kids could ski, mechanical pullers so no boat.

nothing surprises me, and when you say "NO" the shtf, and it can be a hoot, have gone legal a few times in regards to owners thinking they can bamboozle me, its ok, i know my job well, only folks that win in that situation are the land sharks (lawyers).

last one was quite a few years ago 18k sq. ft, helo pad, three guest houses, on a foot hill of a mt. range, one guest house had an olympic size pool in side, crazy stuff.

we no longer do the big stuff, just small stuff now, got tired of the posers.
Rj in az


----------



## LeeRoyMan (Feb 23, 2019)

> The stair and railing industry is no different.
> Ok….if we have to do it that way….and after it passes inspection you can come back and change it to the way we want it!
> Lololololololo…...uhhmmm….no.
> 
> - Tony_S


Who needs a handrail anyway??


----------



## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> The stair and railing industry is no different.
> Ok….if we have to do it that way….and after it passes inspection you can come back and change it to the way we want it!
> Lololololololo…...uhhmmm….no.
> 
> ...


no one…..well unless your 90 years old and can barely stand up,which is where im getting too quickly…..LOL.


----------



## CWWoodworking (Nov 28, 2017)

> Now that I think about it, who the hell wants a wine rack in a bathroom? Do you want some wine? I ll get a bottle from the bathroom when I go.
> 
> - controlfreak


Right on. Whiskey is the choice of drink for bath time.


----------



## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Reminds me of a line I started using, from my buddy: "If you can't pay me the required deposit now, why would I think you could later?"



> If they are unreasonable in requirements, they will likely be unreasonable on delivery or later. The kind of people who don t listen and demand a bad choice are the kind that sue you when it turns out wrong. Run, don t walk away.
> 
> - tvrgeek


----------



## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

*pottz:*
Was on crutches and tried to go down four step concrete stair outside of trailer. Never having been on crutches before I stupidly tried to go down using crutches. Spilled forward and grabbed the skimpy looking aluminum hand rail with one arm and caught it with all my weight - and the cheap POS *HELD!*


----------



## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> *pottz:*
> Was on crutches and tried to go down four step concrete stair outside of trailer. Never having been on crutches before I stupidly tried to go down using crutches. Spilled forward and grabbed the skimpy looking aluminum hand rail with one arm and caught it with all my weight - and the cheap POS *HELD!*
> 
> - Madmark2


oh man that was a lucky situation,having never navigated using crutches ill keep this in mind.


----------



## xedos (Apr 25, 2020)

> So it goes with the 900 CFM fan I installed in the kitchen - I tried to explain how important it is to have air intake of near that amount. Of course, the answer was, I ll just open a window when I run it.
> - Kelly
> 
> Don t worry, if they forget, it will just pull the CO and air needed through the gas water heater and furnace chimneys. They ll sleep really well that night.
> ...


If they have gas appliances. Not everyone does.

Electric appliances , elect, heaters ect. coupled with an old , leaky structure could work.

Would I recommend it ? NO.


----------



## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

*pottz:*
If you ever are on crutches and need to go down stairs *sit* & scooch your ass down one step at a time. Its undignified but safe.

I almost didn't grab for that railing because I didn't think it would hold - but it did & saved my fat ass. Didn't do the shoulder any good but was better than a header onto concrete!


----------



## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

A few decades back I got to see what a single squirrel cage could do to concrete walls, if a structure is not sufficiently leaky. In the course of a divorce, the guy was forced to leave his home and shop. It was the first step of the place being all the ex to be's. Before he left, he turned on the squirrel cage he used to exhaust the daylight basement shop, but didn't open the usual inlet.

It took at least seventy pounds pull to open the door.

The ex complained, but couldn't point at any cause for that the lower portion of the house, suddenly, developed leaks from groundwater.



> So it goes with the 900 CFM fan I installed in the kitchen - I tried to explain how important it is to have air intake of near that amount. Of course, the answer was, I ll just open a window when I run it.
> - Kelly
> 
> . . . ., leaky structure could work.
> ...


----------



## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> *pottz:*
> If you ever are on crutches and need to go down stairs *sit* & scooch your ass down one step at a time. Its undignified but safe.
> 
> I almost didn t grab for that railing because I didn t think it would hold - but it did & saved my fat ass. Didn t do the shoulder any good but was better than a header onto concrete!
> ...


amen brother!


----------



## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

So, there seems to be a lot of folks questioning why someone needs a wine fridge in the bathroom.
When I picture my bathroom, it is hard to imagine it sitting next to a toilet or something.

In this house there isn't a toilet in sight of this fridge. There is an entirely different room inside the bathroom for the toilet. That WC is about the size of a typical bathroom by itself. The fridge is on "His" side with a sink and a mirrored front wardrobe. Her side is "L' shaped with her vanity in the corner with an arched mirror setup with tons of pullouts and drawers for makeup and a built in hair dryer drawer to have always to hand and ready to go.

I don't have the specs on the tub, but it likely does have massaging jets like a jacuzzi tub and would be directly across the entryway from the fridge in question.

Fact is, I don't care why they want it. 
They certainly don't need it. 
But yeah, I agree why not drop the extra dough and not endanger yourselves and all your property?


----------



## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> So, there seems to be a lot of folks questioning why someone needs a wine fridge in the bathroom.
> When I picture my bathroom, it is hard to imagine it sitting next to a toilet or something.
> 
> In this house there isn't a toilet in sight of this fridge. There is an entirely different room inside the bathroom for the toilet. That WC is about the size of a typical bathroom by itself. The fridge is on "His" side with a sink and a mirrored front wardrobe. Her side is "L' shaped with her vanity in the corner with an arched mirror setup with tons of pullouts and drawers for makeup and a built in hair dryer drawer to have always to hand and ready to go.
> ...


right,sounds like they can definitely afford it.probably could afford a sommelier on duty too pick the wine out too.


----------



## Tony1212 (Aug 26, 2013)

> Can we just step back here for a second and take a look at the elephant in the corner? Who TF needs a wine fridge in the BATHROOM?!
> 
> - HokieKen
> 
> ...


No, no, no. The beer fridge goes in the shower. That way when you finish your shower beer, you can grab another one right away.


----------



## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

Well, the word came down from the top. 
Build with the 1.6 space on either side.

They will likely add the fillers behind my back and not tell me.
Sometimes, it feels like my boss thinks I am over reacting and these concerns get dismissed.

I really don't want someone to get injured or worse because of something I worked on.
So frustrating.


----------



## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

If you haven't already, send an email and then save it somewhere where it won't be deleted or lost. I used to keep a CYA file when I still worked for a living.


----------



## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

I think, from my bosses' POV, he is stuck between taking care of a client's requests so they don't take their business elsewhere, and assuming the risk that somewhere down the road things might go wrong.

I get it.

But, that is the short view. 
The long view knows that telling the client to make a change is actually taking care of them.


----------



## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

About ten years ago, there was a very large house under construction in an exclusive neighborhood in North Scottsdale, AZ.

I went up to do the field measurements for the cabinets in the morning.

It had been raining in the previous few days and the roof was not yet dried in.
Inside the home were some very expensive old growth timber beams that they wanted to prevent from getting wet, so they had tarped the entire house (about 8000 sf).

When I got there, is was a windy sunny day and the tarps were flapping pretty hard on the roof.

Inside was a beehive of activity. The HVAC guy was in the rafters ducting the hood exhaust vent.

The next day I got word that the house had burned to the ground about three hours after 
I left.

Turns out that 8000 square feet of plastic tarps flapping in the wind can build up quite an electrical charge.

Then you just need a way to discharge it to a grounded metal exhaust pipe surrounded by fine sawdust from the newly opened hole in the roof and you get a spark that can ignite a flame.

The house burned so hot they had to demo the concrete slab.

A little over a year later I went back to remeasure for cabinets in the newly reframed house. 
Sadly, they were using glue lam beams this time and all the rare old growth timbers were gone.

Sometimes it's the little things that can have the biggest consequences.


----------



## Underdog (Oct 29, 2012)

This thread reminds me of an incident that happened during my stint as a mechanic in a previous life.

A poor customer came in and asked us to take a look at his car that was having brake problems and that pulled to one side…

After a test drive which was a little hair raising because it not only pulled to one side, it SWERVED to one side while braking, made horrendous grinding noises, and worst of all, the front quarter visibly MOVED when braking.

I removed the wheels and couldn't believe my eyes.

The metal to metal wear on the brake rotor on the right side had completely sheared through so that the rotor was no longer connected to the hub. That accounted for the pulling to one side.

The metal to metal wear on the rotor on the left side had gone through to the cooling fins so that the piston was hanging out so far as to get a little cockeyed in the cylinder. It was just about to fall out…

Moreover the firewall was cracked so badly it allowed the one front quarter to flex away from the rest of the unibody construction.

I came to the boss and told him we needed to take the car off the road before someone was killed. He agreed it was unsafe, but we had no power to keep the customer from driving off in it.

And so they did. Don't know what happened after that.


----------



## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

*Underdog:*
If it was a state that required inspections I think I would have "accidentally" scraped off the inspection sticker …


----------



## 1thumb (Jun 30, 2012)

forgive me, but I'm tired of ignorant client requests. Those highly educated who think that $100k+ worth of paper hanging on the wall makes them a guru of carpentry/cabinetry. I'm also tired of cheap fools w/offers like this:

' replace a single door in our condo.

Door slab is purchased, painted, on site and ready for the following:
Scope of work: 
Cut door to fit frame
Drill door knob
Cut and attach hinges 
Install handle and door

Paying $60 if available this week.'


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

Oooh, sixty whole dollars? US?? Be still my heart!!
.
.
.
But at least the scope of work doesn't include painting where the door was cut to fit frame! ;-)


----------



## bigblockyeti (Sep 9, 2013)

> forgive me, but I m tired of ignorant client requests. Those highly educated who think that $100k+ worth of paper hanging on the wall makes them a guru of carpentry/cabinetry. I m also tired of cheap fools w/offers like this:
> 
> replace a single door in our condo.
> 
> ...


The best part is they'll have bought a way undersized door "cutting" to fit will involve removing all the wood on the hinge and latch sides leaving only door skins.


----------



## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

To anyone in business $60 won't pay for the trip if it was down the street.

Back to the bathroom wine fridge. "Excuse me, can you recommend something not to dry that pairs well with bathwater and earthy farts?"


----------



## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

Cust doesn't know doors are ordered in feet & inches and not just inches. So cust needs it cut down 'cause they measured 30" and assumed the clerk was a moron and said they needed a "three-oh" door and were surprised when the door that arrived was 36" (3' 0").

Cust also doesn't know difference between hollow and solid core door.

Are hinges, screws, knob, etc supplied?

Scope of work doesn't mention radiusing the door so I'd let it bounce off the jamb until they renegotiate.

Trimming and radiusing the edges will also require repainting over newly exposed wood.

Not in scope of work and you can bet your sweet arse that cust will complain about repaint.

Doors should only be painted after being hung (you can pull 'em down to paint, but wait until all fitting is done). Cust trying to scrimp by painting (something they can do) before door is up causes more problems than it solves. Cust doesn't understand concept of "work flow". You don't just do things on a list, you have to do them in the right order. Cust wasted painting effort by doing it out of order.

You'ld have to wear gloves to prevent smudging the newly painted door during install.

What type of hinge? NRP? Two or three hinges needed?

Knob type, passage? Locking? Double keyed? Deadbolt?

Is stop molding installed? Trim? Clamshell? Colonial? Paint or stain grade? Stain/paint color? Number of coats needed?

Weatherstripping? Door knocker? Mail slot? Kick plate? Push plate? Pet door? (LOL)

Lots of things cust doesn't understand (and doesn't want to pay for) about job.

Simple little job, bah! I charge $75/hr for on-site, two hour minimum. For $60 I wouldn't start the truck.

Expertise in one field doesn't carry over into others but many think it does. Nothing is impossible for the man that doesn't have to do it.


----------



## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Snort worthy, at the least.



> Cust doesn t know doors are ordered in feet & inches and not just inches. So cust needs it cut down cause they measured 30" and assumed the clerk was a moron and said they needed a "three-oh" door and were surprised when the door that arrived was 36" (3 0").- Madmark2


Tea in China thing, but shows what a big deal door installation can be. Noticed my 4' shop door wasn't closing. Thought, oh crap, the new closer is dead already. Went to push it closed and it was nearly 1/4" into the latch side of the jam. WTH? Scratched my head, then went to the hinge side. All looked fine, EXCEPT for the plastic zipper than had landed in the gap. That little piece of plastic, there by a 1/1,000,000 shot, was enough to change the entire set up. Removed it and ALL was normal again.


----------



## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

Anybody see anything wrong in this picture?

This is the fireplace/tv wall with the fur out to create the niche.
Super unsafe.










What would you do?


----------



## skatefriday (May 5, 2014)

> Anybody see anything wrong in this picture?
> 
> This is the fireplace/tv wall with the fur out to create the niche.
> Super unsafe.
> ...


I'd call the building inspector and make sure he takes a close look.

But in general I've always wondered what the average lifespan of a TV mounted above a fireplace is, vs a TV mounted on a normal wall is. I mean, a raging fire a foot below it can't be a good idea. Besides who wants to crane their necks to look at a TV mounted 6 feet high (By the time you account for mantel and garbage clutter, eh, uh family photographs, on the mantel?


----------



## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

> Besides who wants to crane their necks to look at a TV mounted 6 feet high (By the time you account for mantel and garbage clutter, eh, uh family photographs, on the mantel?
> 
> - skatefriday


Only way to see the TV over their gut while reclining in their La-z-boy.


----------



## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

Put the TV *in* the fireplace with the "yule log" video on an endless loop …

Problem solved.

We call this a *Florida* fireplace!


----------



## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

I think everyone missed it…

The TV is okay, it is the 2×4 and drywall extended firebox that needs to be fire brick and have a non-combustible field 6" to either side and 12" above that is the issue.

While I agree that a TV over a fireplace is not very good placement, in and of itself it doesn't create a safety issue.

We actually finished this job. 
But it was like pulling teeth to get them to change it.
They ended up reworking the firebox.

It got wall to wall and floor to ceiling cabinets in bronze chemetal.


----------



## skatefriday (May 5, 2014)

> I think everyone missed it…
> 
> - DS


Oh I got the firebox part. The photo just triggered one of my pet peeves as to TV placement fads in general.

And I got a good laugh out of the belly obstruction explanation.


----------



## CaptainKlutz (Apr 23, 2014)

> Anybody see anything wrong in this picture?
> 
> This is the fireplace/tv wall with the fur out to create the niche.
> Super unsafe.
> ...


Nothing wrong with that picture: Just have to tell the owner they Bork'd the fireplace. 
Cap the chimney top, stuff insulation in pipe, install metal plate over damper to ensure firebox is permanently closed off, then install a nice little electric fireplace insert with purdy lights that twinkle like flames. 
hehe


----------



## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

Funny thing (sad?) was they asked us to wrap the entire thing - even inside the firebox opening.


----------



## JCamp (Nov 22, 2016)

As simple as this sounds can't you just build it as they wish, get paid and leave and allow them to install whatever they want? I mean even if they bought and had you install the high dollar ones and sold the house in 10 years the new owners can always put the cheaper ones in. I'm sure good lawyers could argue either way. One would sure u for damages and one would sue you for not completing the job as requested


----------



## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

You r bein foolish [worrying about the minus zero clearance fireplace]. I just bought this and I aint wurried. It's even got a "approved" sticker on the back.


----------



## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

So, I decided to be proactive and I shifted the sink over a couple of inches so that, when the freestanding fridge dies, there will room to install the proper built-in fridge without replacing the entire run of cabinets.

It's the best I can do from this side of my computer monitor.

The odds of their house burning down is probably less than one in a hundred…


----------



## mawilsonWCR (Feb 18, 2021)

Seriously. A custom bathroom rehab which likely cost $$$$ and they couldn't pony up an extra $700 for a proper unit. More dollars than sense. Most likely outcome: they'll wind up paying what they thought they were saving replacing the cheap unit.


----------



## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

The same designer just tried to pull the same thing with a cigar humidor for a wet bar. (Different house).
I had to explain a bit how climate control cooling condensers work so she could understand why freestanders are cheap versus true built in units.

FYI, cheap freestanders rely on convection currents behind the unit for cooling the coils while built in units stow the coils underneath and force air with a fan. (Passive versus active cooling) if you build in a freestander you cancel the convection effect and the unit doesn't work.

She still hasn't found a built in humidor unit and I'm not sure there even is one to buy anywhere.
They might just have to settle on using it like it was designed to be used.


----------

