# Testing a tip



## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

First off you all know when you read in the various magazines the reader's tips that you sometimes say, yeah, I suppose that's pretty good, but can't see myself using it, so you just glance over it. Then there are those tips that just make no sense at all and you wonder why did they print that? Then there are those tips that say hey "try me out." This is one of those "hey try me out" tips.

As always, give credit where credit is due. Here is a shout out and congrats for getting your tip published in Fine Woodworking to Tom Carpenter of Vernon, British Columbia, Canada. Tom's tip was published in the April 2012 (yeah I know - it's not April yet) issue on page 16.

I wanted to try this tip because I've never really been satisfied with my different methods of holding up my work pieces.

Tom's tip is to use golf ball markers to hold your project up off of the work surface while applying a finish. I had never heard of these little things, I'm not a golf watcher, so I'm not 100% sure what these things are used for in the game of golf. Tom's markers are 1" wide by 1/2" tall. I could not find this size marker at my local sports store. My markers are 1" wide but only have a 1/4" spike. Regardless, these are the markers I'm going to use.

To test Tom's method I decided to run a very scientific test. Okay, not "very" scientific - but a test nonetheless.

Here are the competitors.










I was disappointed in the markers I bought but only because they cheated me out of one marker. There were supposed to be 12 and there were only 11 and not only that, but they cheated me out of my favorite color - red! Geez the injustice of it. 

Here's a little close up of the golf marker. You can see that the top of the "spike" is flat. Tom's markers also have a rounded tip not a flat tip like mine. So that may make my test not completely accurate.










Next competitor is just some small finish nails hammered into some small plywood pieces. I've used these a lot over the years, but never with 100% satisfaction.










The nails, of course, are very hard. But they are also very flat on the top. So with that, they are actually very similar to the golf markers. You can see that I have two nails in every ply piece. That helps me not to have to balance my piece on one nail. I found that if I used only one nail in each piece that I have a hard time keeping things balanced. Not sure if I'm explaining that very well.

One problem I had with the nails is that I always have to be very careful when I pick my work piece up to pick it straight up in one quick motion. If I happen to slide or push the work piece a little one way or the other I would actually create a scratch in the work piece - and that my friends leads to a very unhappy camper.

Okay the final competitor in my very scientific test are the paint triangles that you can buy at Rocker, Woodcraft and I believe I've even seen them at one of the big box stores (but don't hold me to that). You can see that mine have been well used.










The problem I've always have had with these little triangles are that they come to a very sharp point. The point in rounded, but it is still what I would call sharp. That sharp point actually makes a small pock mark in the work piece. And that, my friends, is why I want to try Tom's tip.

If the golf markers will keep from scratching the work piece and not gouge or pock mark the piece, then they will win.

So how to test the tip. I decided that I would use three pieces of pine. All three pieces are the same width, length and thickness. I placed the various competitors at approximately the same location on each board (or at least I tried - I didn't get out my calipers - that's why this is not really a very scientific test - I use that term lightly.) Since most finishing projects are left to dry overnight I've marked the time I set the boards on the competitors (not sure why I did that - but thought it would give my test more gusto if I could say how long they sat under the boards).










One thought I have with the golf markers I found is that they are plastic and that may put them in the same category of the plastic triangles - but not really sure that thought will pan out. We'll see.

I'll post my "results" tomorrow. I know you are all already excited to see my results, but please try not to let the pending results make you lose any sleep.

One final note, I was not sure if this topic should be under "finishing" or "Jigs and Fixtures" I flipped a coin and Jigs and fixtures won.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

I would guess the golf green markers are to close to be able to placed properly ,I know the nails work and the painters triangles work having used them before.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I thought they just used a quarter to mark golf balls. Now I know ;-))


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## TCCcabinetmaker (Dec 14, 2011)

when I can't support it on the rack after spraying, I use a 1/4 inch piece of plywood with screws driven all the way through, the point is to have the smallest possible point to hold up a piece without leaving a mark.


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## lew (Feb 13, 2008)

Cool, Betsy!

I've used nails and home made painters triangles before but never the golf thingys. Looking forward to the results.


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## Finn (May 26, 2010)

I do what TCCcabinetmaker does.


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Well my less than scientific results are in. The plastic triangles lose. I couldn't get my camera to get a picture worth showing, but of the three types of supports the plastic triangles were the only ones that pocked marked the pine wood.

I do think that just a 1/4" spike on the golf markers are too low to be useful. The Nails I've used a lot, but like I said in my first post, they can scratch the finish if you don't pull the wood off straight up in one easy motion.

TCC and Jim - I'd be interested to know if you snip off the end of your screws before placing your material on top. I would think the sharp point of most screws would mar the finish.

So no major breakthroughs here.


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## LeeBarker (Aug 6, 2010)

I use 1 1/4" staples, two driven through per piece of 1.5×1.5×1/2 or 5/8 manmade sheet goods.

The points are sharp, and that's good. The bigger the tip of the object, the bigger the scar.

The ball markers are cool. I'd be inclined to dress the tips to a sharper point with a file and hot melt them to a small piece of 1/2" stock to raise them up.

Kindly,

Lee


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

I would not have thought of using staples, that's an interesting idea.

Isn't the exchange of ideas wonderful!


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## Trapshter (Nov 5, 2011)

Like TCC I run screws through the board . But I add wall Mollys smll ones. They are nice and round at the ends and never leave a mark 
Jm


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## Elizabeth (Oct 17, 2009)

I've never used any of these items because I don't have much experience with finishing, but if I were to make some I might try those bobby pins that have tiny round plastic caps on the end. Cut the pin in half, drive one end into a board like your nails. The caps may solve the scratching problem that the nails are giving you…

Come to think of it, I don't have much experience with bobby pins either, but I am pretty sure that they still make them with caps on the ends…


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

They do still make those! Not a bad idea.


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## Grandpa (Jan 28, 2011)

I use screws driven through from the back then I have the small point to sit the project on. This leaves a very small place to deal with.


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## LeeBarker (Aug 6, 2010)

The bobby pin tips might respond to the solvent in lacquer; not sure.

Here's a subfamily of my large litter of staples in blocks:










It might be good to discuss the value of a sharp point over a dull one when we're using these on something that is finished all sides. Though I'm not convinced there would be a great deal of difference, the dull end would create a crater-like impression (micro to macro) while a sharp point would create a much smaller impression if you're turning the object over and placing green finish on the holders.

Thoughts?

Kindly

Lee


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Lee. I am wondering how sharp is too sharp? I would never have thought of screws or staples because of the sharpness. In my mind that seems like it would cause more, not less damage. But it seems that the proof is in the pudding and sharp does work.

Just goes to show, a simple question can lead to knew ideas and a new way of doing things.

Thanks for all the responses.


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## Frizz (Oct 22, 2010)

Part of the problem with marks left by the sharp point of nails or screws may be from not using enough of them to give sufficient support. As others have suggested above, I have used a "porcupine" board that has nails driven right thru so my project rests on the points and find that it works great. However, the nails are spaced about an inch apart. I found that resting work on the head of the nails left a mark on the surface finish. I realize the spacing I use would be out of the question for larger projects but it could always be adjusted to suit. Just a thought….


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

Drive a roofing nail through a small square of plywood and blunt the tip with a file. You could get fancy and epoxy the roofing nail head to the square instead of driving it through. That would ensure the nail is perpendicular to the surface. I like the way you think.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

Betsy; "I would think the sharp point of most screws would mar the finish." 
A sharp point wouldn't mar the finish as much as it would puncture the wood. If the point is too blunt (more area), it will stick to the finish and when you lift the item, the finish will pull away. Probably you would need a sharp point when working with hard woods and a slightly blunt point when working soft woods. You can blunt the tips of the painter's triangles to reduce the pock mark. I would use a flat tip screwdriver; heat it in a flame; then rub the tips of the triangles until you get the desired result. I have also heard of using childrens jacks to keep work elevated. I don't know if they are still made or kids even know about them anymore.


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## Stephenw (Nov 14, 2011)

The "triangles" are actually called painter's pyramids and are what I like to use. The points can be dulled if desired. They can be had at the Home Depot and Lowes for around $5.


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## greg48 (Nov 7, 2010)

Betsy,
I don't know much about triangles, golf spikes, etc., but I do know a little less about setting up a scientific comparative analysis and applaud your test design. I think that the Fine Woodworking editorial staff would be dollars ahead if they were to offer you a full time (with benny's) position. No joke. 
Good luck and watch out for the pointy ends.


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## Sawkerf (Dec 31, 2009)

I shoot 1 1/4" brads spaced ~1" apart thru junk plywood then cut it into whatever sizees I need. I've had my current crop of six for about three years and it's probably time to toss them and make some more.


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Stephen - I knew those things had a name! Thanks for all the comments.


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## gfadvm (Jan 13, 2011)

I just started using plastic golf tees pushed up thru a piece of very thick cardboard. This is the best solution I have found to date.


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## canadianchips (Mar 12, 2010)

Topo…that explains why there is all those coins in the water hazard…........and I thought they just tossed a coin in for good luck ! (like the fountain at the mall) lol
I use old fashion shingle nail in cardboard.


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