# SPEND AN HOUR HERE BEFORE YOU DECIDE - Tired of being Hustled?



## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

This is very with some very credible scientists for a change.

You will need to dedicate an hour of your time.

Makes you wonder if certain forces aren't trying to push us off the planet?

Bob


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## rejr (Jun 24, 2008)

"Last month, at a forum in Melbourne, eminent scientists expressed their concerns about the doco. Australian of the Year Tim Flannery even wondered whether it should be classified as fiction rather than a documentary."

"The problem with The Great Global Warming Swindle, which caused a sensation when it was broadcast on Channel 4 last week, is that to make its case it relies not on future visionaries, but on people whose findings have already been proved wrong. The implications could not be graver."

wikipedia The Great Global Warming Swindle."

Real Climate The Great Global Warming Swindle

How to Talk to a Climate Sceptic


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## Blake (Oct 17, 2007)

Bob, by now you should be familiar with the posting rules. This just isn't the place for politics.


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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

I'm afriad you lost me here Blake?

Perhaps you're a bit myopic ?

Bob


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## pashley (Mar 22, 2008)

*Blake*, I can't see why we can't home some political discussions, once in awhile, as long as people treat each other decent. I like LJ because it's a bunch of guys around my age and circumstance, and I like to toss the ball around with politics once in a while.

My take on the global warming thing: I'm not certain (like some) that we are causing it, but I don't think it's a bad thing to move on to renewable or cleaner burning energies.


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## Tinyshop (Sep 1, 2007)

I agree with Blake. This is woodworking related site. Politics belongs elsewhere.


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## coloradoclimber (Apr 7, 2007)

I gotta agree w/ Blake, this is a woodworking site. There are plenty of sites dedicated to general discussion or politics. It's just not this site.


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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

So tell me my learned fellows, shall we burn our scientists at the stake as they did in the dark ages?

I have to agree with you now that when a topic cannot be recognized as scientific and is referred to as "political" that is is probably misappropriated information.

In hindsight I wish I had not broached the subject here.

Rest assured it will not happen again.

bob


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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

*Coffee Lounge*
Need a break from all the standing and wood dust? Chat with your Forum Friends about their projects, their life, their philosophies, and get to know each other better. Whether you drink Coffee, or Soda Pop, grab a cup/can, and enter the world of our Forum Coffee Lounge.


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## cmaeda (Sep 1, 2008)

I was under the impression that the coffee lounge was for off topic discussions… Sorry, I just posted a question about finding a Toyota dealer in Fresno. Or does this specifically relate to political discussions?


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## coloradoclimber (Apr 7, 2007)

Bob,

My impression is that it has less to do with whether the topic is actually political or religious or off the topic of woodworking and more to do with whether the topic has the potential to be "controversial".

I've seen many postings on welding and beautiful days and it's my birthday and it's my anniversary and I've got 5000 posts and etc. Not much to do with woodworking in those posts.

It's too hard to say "controversial" posts are prohibited, who would define controversial? Since political and religious topics have a high probability of becoming heated it's easier to ban those.

I don't particularly have a problem with controversial topics. I'm usually up for a heated discussion with any number of crazies from all sides of the issue. But this is Martin's house and he has set the rules for polite guests. While the rules say no political or religious topics I interpret the real meaning to be "no controversial topics not directly related to woodworking". I'm sure we are allowed to argue to merits of hide glues vs pva, but not argue the merits of any particular political party, religion, scientific discovery, or other off topic controversy. Everybody plays nice and no off topic controversy.

That doesn't mean people on this board are hiding from the truth or embracing ignorance, it means that on this board Martin has asked to limit off topic controversy. There are hundreds, thousands, more ?? political, religious, scientific, and conspiracy theory oriented discussion boards. We go to those boards for lively heated opinionated discussions, we come to LJ to talk about woodworking and the occasional it's my birthday/anniversary post.


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## FatherHooligan (Mar 27, 2008)

I haven't explored the links about global warming and I'm not about to start discussing it but I am in agreement and somewhat concerned about posting things too far from the woodworking realm. I've seen some really great sites that tanked in a matter of months because someone started a flamewar about an off topic topic ( does that make sense). I think we're all capable of discussing almost anything in a calm matter, its the fanatics that concern me and can make Martin's life miserable. I'm all for discussion in the appropriate forum. Now I'll get off my soap box (I will point out the beautiful hand cut dovetails holding this soap box together and the elegant stain and lustreous finish


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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

Interesting that you have such a deep understanding of the intent of the Coffee lounge and the intent of my posting.
It's painfully obvious that your neither read the guideline for the coffee lounge posting nor did you bother to view the link I provided.
I took the liberty of posting same just above your most recent diatribe.

It would seem that it is important to you to have the last word and to be seen as being right.

Perhaps if you would post more of your woodworking projects along with some decent photos rather than critiquing the odd posting that fails to meet with your standards we would not be having this discussion.

Bob


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## kolwdwrkr (Jul 27, 2008)

Bob #2 I have to say that there's nothing wrong with you posting this thread. Had you posted it in another section on this site it would have been different. But, I am actually sitting here with coffee reading through things, and woodworking is what I'm about to do afterwords. When people whine and cry about every post, every thread, every view point, it makes it very difficult to believe that this country really has freedoms. You have the freedom to say what you want so long as it doesn't effect someone else. Well, everything effects me, I just don't want to live my life thinking that everyone needs to keep their mojo to themselves. 
If you don't like what Bob #2 is posting here, move on and don't read it. It's not for you. Thanks Bob #2 for sharing.


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## coloradoclimber (Apr 7, 2007)

and thus begins the decent…...


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## cpt_hammer (Dec 18, 2007)

I'm for another ice age…it slows down lumber growth and makes excellent hardwoods….

Bring on Global Cooling!!!!


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## raz0rr0b (Sep 23, 2008)

Science is awesome!
This article is great and it has really great graphs. Who doesn't like graphs? 
http://www.dailytech.com/Sun+Makes+History+First+Spotless+Month+in+a+Century/article12823.htm
What did this have to do with coffee?...


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## cmaeda (Sep 1, 2008)

Is global warming politics? I don't watch too much tv, read the newspaper or listen to the election stuff so I don't know if this is associated with something in the political arena but it doesn't sound like politics. 
I, for one, don't trust documentries. Anyone can say anything.


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## coloradoclimber (Apr 7, 2007)

decent or descent…. only time (and a few more posts) will tell


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## pokieone (Jun 29, 2008)

Bob #2, 
Thanks for sharing your point of view. I too, feel that global warming is a scientific debate and should not be political. However, certain people would like to avoid issues that they disagree with or cannot understand, for various reasons. This is just my philosophy. I think my text is non-political because I used the word "philosophy"....Right?

Mike


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## Boardman (Feb 7, 2008)

Bob #2's post was clearly intended to foment useless argument. I say "useless" because like politics and religion, no one is going to change their mind as a result of internet arguing with someone who lives hundreds of miles away and you have little to no chance of every meeting to have in depth discussions. What piffle. Woodnet has an off topic forum where I'm sure you could get some action Bob.

And quite frankly Bob, you other posts in this thread, particularily that to Mark Shymanski, drip with sarcastic insulting. Go find someone in real life to argue with. It's far more immediate and gratifying to those who seek for it.


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## kolwdwrkr (Jul 27, 2008)

I find it amuzing that when there is no sense in arguing, or when one side is upset and thinking they are right it becomes personal, and the attacks start. When Bob posted this he didn't say much, just pointed us in the direction of a movie clip. You can click the link and go there, or you can push the back arrow and go back to the forums. What are you going to decide? You are going to decide to use this as an opportunity to pick a fight, to argue something nobody mentioned arguing. How grownup everyone who posted a complaint or negative reaction must feel. Maybe you are the folks that should leave the lumberjocks, after all, we only want Real, Secure, Understanding, and unobjective men and woman here. And if you can't handle that, via con dios good luck, wish you well, easy come, easy go.
For the topic, I think it's a shame that so many people devote so much time to things like this. This is a topic that the media uses to confuse us, divert us from the real problems that are plaguing our society and country. Our government is screwing us left and right, and everytime they do what comes up. Global warming. You want to talk about politics, religion, and her? That's why this becomes political, because it's the politicians that bring it up to cover up other issues. Who cares about global warming. We will have a Mad Max era before it even effects anything. People say we need to worry about it for future generations. Our children will suffer more from our own political disasters then anything mother nature dishes out. Pull your heads out of your butts and focus on what really matters. PPPPFFFTTTT.


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## coloradoclimber (Apr 7, 2007)

which brings us back around to here


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## kolwdwrkr (Jul 27, 2008)

LOL, YUP


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## pokieone (Jun 29, 2008)

Boardman, when did Bob #2 try to foment an argument? Where is the argument? Where are the premises for the argument? And, where is the conclusion of the argument? It simply isn't there. Why are the majority of people on this thread angry and some trying to be hurtful? This reminds me of John Lennon's song Imagine, which caused religious fundamentalists to spout and spew vilely. Boardman, why the pestiferous approach?

Mike


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## FatherHooligan (Mar 27, 2008)

Just for the record folks Bob#2 was not responding to my post but previous posts, mine just slipped in while he was writing his.

Bob, no offense taken and thanks for the PM explaining the order thing.


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## kolwdwrkr (Jul 27, 2008)

What makes global warming contraversial? There are facts about it and there are things that aren't facts. But the fact of the matter is that the Scientists are the only ones to know, and everyone else just says what they think everyone wants to hear. So my view point may be different then others because I don't know the facts. So the best thing to do is just see the thread, say to myself oh, I don't know anything about this, then move on. Instead I think I'll post a whiny thread saying you are breaking the rules (even if you are or not) because that's what I do is complain, and look for threads to attack. That way I can be the disease that plagues the internet, instead of part of the solution and leave things alone. Bob, who were you kidding when you posted this? BTW, if you want to complain about controversy, then you need to ban any and all jokes. Especially jokes that may make me feel insecure like woodworking bloopers. I feel like you are making fun of me for launching something off the saw. WWAAAA, and the cows!!! My best friend was a cow when I was little. I feel like everyone is making fun of her and I'm offended. And the Jigs? You are making me feel stupid by asking what something is, because I really don't know and it makes me sad. 
STFU with the controversy crap. It's not a controversy until a negative person can't help but talk.


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## kolwdwrkr (Jul 27, 2008)

Then be part of the solution and don't complain. Still makes you a whiner. See, now it gets personal and I didn't even put your name on it!! So it was to all you complainers as a whole. Opinions should be expressed not repressed. The negativity that comes in is pure BS. Bob has every right to share what he is sharing. And nowhere in the rules does it say that you can't talk about global warming. It's only political and controversal when some one makes it that way. But why not ignore that particular person and carry on with a civil discussion. Why does everyone have to say "oh yeah, this could be controversial". EVERYTHING is controversial. The way you build your projects is controversial. I may build differently and you may not like it. An argument can stem from any discussion on this forum. So, it's internet diseases like you that HAVE to argue, instead of leaving things alone. BTW, I'll be here defending the situation until it is discarded. WHY? Because someone needs to stand up to all the hippy whiners that have to make every topic a B%$#h.


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## Blake (Oct 17, 2007)

Sheesh. I think my point has been made for me.


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## kjwoodworking (Oct 4, 2007)

I think you are right Blake.

*Just shoot me!* (I think I heard that somewhere before)

It is crazy how things get blown out of proportion.

What frustrates me the most is how twisted it gets so quickly and in the replies everyone is so sure their right, they hear nothing else.

Thanks for the post Bob#2

Check out the link posted if you want. You don't have to agree or believe it!

I just took it how I think Bob#2 intended. He found something he thought interesting and shared. Let it go!

Have you seen the home made sander in new projects.


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## odie (Nov 20, 2007)

Not taking a stand either way here, but I have some beliefs on the matter that are quite strong.

Pine is prettier than oak! WOW, that's controversial! Or is it. Actually it was my point of view and would not be controversial until someone disagreed with me and pointed out it should not be said.

That phrase "word police" comes to mind again is all I have to say. *LIGHTEN UP boys and girls.*


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## coloradoclimber (Apr 7, 2007)

Actually Odie, I think that would be *on topic* controversy. And therefore reasonable and sensible to discuss / argue / debate on a *wood working* site.

And there are subjects which are clearly *off topic* and more suitable for sites which cater to and encourage discussion / argument / debate / wild opinions / offensive language / conspiracy theories / flag waving / flag burning / finger pointing / martyrdom / and whatever other inflammatory words you want to put in here.

I answered a PM yesterday with something like:

This is Martin's house, as a guest I try to abide by his rules. It seems polite that if I choose to be a member of this site that I abide by the culture and conventions of this site.

If I were to visit a friends house and they asked me to take off my shoes or use a coaster or watch my language around their kids, as a friend and polite guest I would try to do so.

If I want to get drunk and belligerent I can always go down to the corner bar.

It seems that as polite *guests* of of this site a reasonable attempt should be made to abide by the ground rules.


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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

When I posted this topic I had no idea that I would be beset by a small band of malcontents that either deliberately or as a result of misinterpretation would bend the guidelines here to include this topic.

These guys have even gone so far as to brand this topic "controversial" and link this to the guidelines along with "Politics" and "Religion".

*They provided the link above* so don't take my word , just go read the guide for yourself.

*It does not say that! It doesnot even imply that*

Here, we have just witnessed the "ostrich syndrome" where *not investigating seems more than sufficient *for some.

You see, wether this topic is controversial or not depends alot on what you are willing to believe in the first place.

Being somewhat of a pragmatist I like to look at both sides of a proposal for change before weighing in on it.

I consider this a *philosphical* question rather than one involving religion or politics.

As "*controversial" *is in the eyes of the beholder and definitely not spelled in the stated in the guidelines, I will have to overlook the attempts to "infer" it in to the current rules.

*How does this affect woodworking you ask?*

Well, I was pushed off the topic before I could respond but here it is:

Quite simply, the furor over global warming and the direct/indirect link to fuel costs rising are pricing the hardwoods and essentially the lumber industry out beyond the budgets of many woodworkers and homeowner/clients.

Many will loose their homes and many more their jobs too, more their pensions.*
*
*

In third world countries entire forests are being burned down to grow corn.
So much corn is being grown that it is impacting the food supply in many areas. 
It has been a traditional animal feed for over a hundred years but now is a fuel additive.
I am not going to get into the argument of any benefits or disadvantages of these practices. I simply wanted to point them out.

*Back to the original posting.*

This exact topic is being currently discused here:

http://forum.canadianwoodworking.com/showthread.php?p=183277#poststop

It seems to be progressing normally and without the added benefit of the "self appointed" forum-decorum police that we seem to have here.

Please note the civility in their postings as well.

Now, wether the planet is warming up or cooling down is a relatively mute point right now as "strangely" the prices of everything on the planet have mysteriously drastically increased.

Now I find that interesting!

I also find that many commodities are in short supply and this is putting increased pressure on the prices.
So when milling and shipping costs outweigh the value of forest products there will be none to be had.

Labour used to be the big factor in manufacturing but very rapidly energy costs and 
"carbon taxes" are overtaking that.

It seems probable and likely that, given a reasonable period of time, the planet will become less dependant on fossil fuel.
*We are being pushed beyond our current limits to get this job done before the technology is in place. *

Perhaps this global warming thing is simply a massive harvesting of the world's assets from it's people.

At least, that's my current *philosophy*.

At least, I have had the chance ,denied me by some, to put forward my thoughts.

Bob


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## kolwdwrkr (Jul 27, 2008)

Bob, kudos for a well thought out response. Makes sense to me. Now, let me re-read it so I can choose what is "controversial" so I can ream you. LOL, J/K


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## kolwdwrkr (Jul 27, 2008)

BTW, why is it that a topic with the title "which is your future president" not viewed as "political" and going against the rules. Granted it's all funny, but I'm sure not to some. You can't pick and choose which threads follow the rules. They all have to or none at all.


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## Tinyshop (Sep 1, 2007)

Well said Bob. I guess I see your point about this being a topic that can fit into "Coffee Lounge" topics. Please accept my apologies for prior comments. My concern is people getting too heated about which they honestly know very little. I did check out your link and I agree, it is interesting. I read recently in National Geographic that on average a methane seep in the ocean can dump as much methane into the atmosphere as a million cars in as little as a few hours. I don't know all the facts but I am a natural skeptic. As Carl Sagan once said, "Keep an open mind, but not so open that your brain falls out". I believe we need more critical thinking in our lives, for the future of our children and grandchildren. I am so pro-science that I subscribe to more science based mags than woodworking mags. I think our abysmal scores in math and science compared to the rest of the world is due to our move away from a science based, critical thinking culture. This is a travesty.

Kolwdwrkr- I am impressed with your defense of Bob. I regret it took me so long to come the same conclusion you have in this thread. Bob is lucky to have you on his side!

Furthermore Bob, I appreciate you approaching this subject, you have defended yourself honorably against weak attacks and have won my respect.

I have included below a favorite system of thinking of mine.

Carl Sagan's Baloney Detection Kit
-Wherever possible there must be independent confirmation of the facts 
-Encourage substantive debate on the evidence by knowledgeable proponents of all points of view. 
-Arguments from authority carry little weight (in science and politics there are no "authorities"). 
-Spin more than one hypothesis - don't simply run with the first idea that caught your fancy. 
-Try not to get overly attached to a hypothesis just because it's yours. 
-Quantify, wherever possible. 
-If there is a chain of argument every link in the chain must work. 
-"Occam's razor" - if there are two hypothesis that explain the data equally well choose the simpler. 
-Ask whether the hypothesis can, at least in principle, be falsified (shown to be false by some unambiguous test). In other words, is it testable? Can others duplicate the experiment and get the same result?

As far as global warming goes I am doing my best to live as green a lifestyle as possible.


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## odie (Nov 20, 2007)

Oh Really …...........................


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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

Gentlemen I am humbled by your understanding and for stepping up when the odds were not in my favor.

With kindest regards

Bob Oswin


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## kolwdwrkr (Jul 27, 2008)

This morning I woke up thinking that Lumberjocks stick together. After Bob posted I began to think otherwise. I hope people will start coming back around and reasure me that we are all friends here. I'm proud to help stick by a fellow member.


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## Tinyshop (Sep 1, 2007)

No matter the BS thrown, you all are my best friends! (thats kinda sad huh? apparently i need to get a life outside woodworking)


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## pokieone (Jun 29, 2008)

I'm amazed that some here would react in such a harsh manner and label a topic controversial, when in fact; it is the reaction of certain people that is controversial. Whatever happened to a good healthy debate? I'm not saying that Bob #2 invited people to view the link for debate, but for what he stated above in his post. So, some might have a different point of view, than what is on the link. This is nether good nor bad, but different. However, some people feel they must cause a commotion when someone disagrees with their position or point of view. I find this occurs when intellectual reasoning has left them. That is why we see the personal attacks and admonishments. If you don't want to add your perspective, then, simply move on, without being so defensive. Let it go! If you don't want to share on a positive note, then don't! Don't say anything at all; just carry on with your day. People, share the love, not the hate!

Mike


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## pokieone (Jun 29, 2008)

Christopher, we are all brothers.

Mike


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## Sawdust2 (Mar 18, 2007)

So if we burn our pine or oak scraps are we contributing to global warming?

Seems to me that it is irrefutable (a scientific fact that has been tested) that we have been in global warming since the last ice age.

I may be misremembering my school days but I think there have been three "ice ages" in the last couple of million years and two times in the first (last) four billion years that the earth has been totally enveloped in ice.

Lee


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## Tinyshop (Sep 1, 2007)

I couldn't have said it better Mike!


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## Tinyshop (Sep 1, 2007)

I think burning scraps is considered carbon neutral in that another tree will take up the carbon to grow.


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## Dusty56 (Apr 20, 2008)

READ THE RULES BELOW AND UNDERSTAND THEM BEFORE POSTING

Be civil, courteous and respectful to all. 
Keep your posts appropriate for our members of all ages to read/see. 
Don't get personal. A good general rule to follow is, "criticize ideas, not people". 
We do not tolerate abusive, malicious, personal attacks. 
Postings deemed to be Spam will be removed. 
Don't discuss politics and religion, as long as it is not directly related to woodworking. 
Don't advertise directly on the site. If you have a product that you would like to advertise contact our advertising department. Note that labeling projects as "for sale" as well as adding your business website to your profile and signature is allowed. Premium business features will be added in the future. 
Off-topic discussions should be posted in the Coffee Lounge Forum. Please remember to keep such postings appropriate for all our members to read/see. 
Debates with other member(s) that are not beneficial to the site as a whole are to be done through the private message system.


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

The sun just came up over the horizon and turned the fields a brilliant gold, just a touch of its rays on the skin makes one sooo happy to be alive. As I toss a few grains of food at the Koi's down in the pond at the back deck I cant help admire the glittering colours of their scales dance to the beat of the suns rays as I listen to the roosters "cock a doodle doing" I am inclined to choke the life out of them for ruining it.

As a Great Indian Chief once said "All that befalls the earth will befall the children of the earth"

Bob#2…............I always enjoy what you write, be it contraversial or not !!!!


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## odie (Nov 20, 2007)

*I personally want to thank Bob#2 for opening my eyes to the other side of the issue. I had no idea &^%$#@ LOL*

*Who said wood wasn't political?*


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## odie (Nov 20, 2007)




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## saddlesore (Oct 17, 2007)

I agree with you Bob #2. I'm conservative by nature, and therefore tend to be "green". But I know the earth has been through hundreds of heating and cooling cycles over 4.5 billion years, and we cannot stop this one, no matter how many bogus "carbon credits" ALGORE sells to gullible jet set types to ease their guilt over their lifestyles. The websites you posted are good, but if someone wants to read an alternative postion on "global warming" that is based in scientific fact, but is entertaining too, read State of Fear by Michael Crichton.


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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

Hi Tom:
We are similar in attitude toward obsessive lifestyles that impact the planet negatively to nobody's' benefit.
Over the last 5 years I have heard so much rhetoric over the global warning issue and the punitive solutions to the change that I welcomed an alternative perspective as presented in the link I provided.
I was hoping for some folks like you and now several others to weigh in and say that the whole thing is blown out of proportion.
Instead, an attack of the word police.
As often seen the ones with the most to say have the least to offer.

"Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it."

I'm not American so I do not necessarily keep up on what's politically correct there.
Global warming may be a hot potato in the U.S but other countries are taking a more practical approach to open discussions of what it is and how to deal with it.
As this is an International site I had expected the partisan attitudes of some folks to be subdued here.
No such luck.
At any rate the dust up seems to be behind us thanks to some pretty level heads around here.

I'm glad for that but sad that freedom of expression has been challenged.

For what it's worth now I don't have a perspecitve on global warming just yet and am still trying to gather up information to make a sound discision.

State of Fear by Michael Crichton is next on my list.

Cheers

Bob


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## odie (Nov 20, 2007)




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## RobH2 (May 11, 2008)

Hi Bob, Thanks for the post. I'd never really given any attention to this side of the argument before. Now like most arguments I see that both sides have good reasons for what they believe. So how does one choose? Both sides have scientists saying different things? My choice in this matter is to err on the side of caution. It certainly wont hurt me to exercise a green attitude toward the environment that's for sure. If I'm right then I'm doing my part to help the world, and if I'm wrong I've lost nothing. And perhaps I can even gain if I am wrong, in the sense that I may be heathier because I do things like eat organic and vegetarian foods, and I cycle and walk more, which also saves cash in addition to the benefit of exercise.

The video seems like a conspracy theory to me. Especially when they say that environmentalists are being manipulated by the government to keep the third world from developing. Wow, that's quite a stretch of the imagination. Perhaps if they just gave the scientific facts and allowed the viewers to draw their own conclusions then this movie would have more power; but it's due to these unscientific claims that the actual "science" loses credibility in my opinion.


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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

Rob, I 'm glad you took the time to watch the presentation. 
Most have opinions without the benefit of any research.
The philosopher Francois Arouet AKA "Voltaire" said: "Prejudice is opinion without judgment. " back in the 1700's.
It's a pity that little has changed since then.
Assuming there was no catastrophic event facing mankind at this moment it still behooves us to be prudent with our resources and be good stewards of the planet.
Everything today has a monetary value in life and everything is "spun" to extract the greatest number of dollars for the least effort.
I think it pays to be curious and to ask the hard questions before falling in line like some kind of android.

I would also ask why the Japanese want to hunt down and eat the last whales on the planet but that would not be Politically Correct.

Cheers

Bob


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