# Stanley No 4 Type 5



## Newboy1 (Nov 11, 2013)

Howdy Folks. Stopped by a local flea market the other day and picked up what I believe is a Stanley No 4 type 5 smoother. Being relatively new to hand planes, I thought I better ask before I start messing around with it too much. I've fixed up a few old defiance's planes and other Stanley, but never have had anything this early. What do No 4 (assuming that is what it is, based on measurements….no numbers on casting of any kind) type 5's usually go for? Over all condition is what I would call fair - The mushroom shaped knob is chipped around the base, but the iron and chipbreaker are both good. Tote has been repaired at one point, and the Y Adusting lever is forced out of position onto the adjusting nut (you can probably see that on the photos). Sole is in okay shape - there is a small hair line crack on one edge of the mouth, looks like about a 2mm chip might come out if I flatten the sole. Cap Iron does have a chip in it.

Photos are pre-any sort of cleaning - pretty dirty and dingy. 

















Thoughts? Should I throw a new Lie Nielsen or Veritas Iron in it and use it, or is it worth more to sell it and buy a later model?


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## DocBailey (Dec 9, 2011)

A type 5 should have the model number cast into the main body
It should also have two patent dates on the lateral lever
and it should have writing on the inner face of the brass adjusting wheel.

If these are missing, it's possible it is something other than a Stanley.

As someone who has rehabbed hundreds of planes (and has a plane problem) I would advise parking this on a shelf. Number fours are everywhere, and these early planes have very thin castings, and the older ones (if well-used) often have stress cracks trailing back from one or both sides of the mouth, and cannot tolerate the sort of lapping people seem to want to do to every plane they get their hands on.


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## Newboy1 (Nov 11, 2013)

I can make out the "Stanley" on the lateral adjuster, but until I clean it up I cant make out where the 2 patent dates *Should* be. Brass adjusting wheel does have writing (pretty caked, but ill post after it cleans up). There is absolutely 0 marking on the body.

I can see exactly what you mean as far as stress cracks - this does indeed have stress cracks trailing on both sides of the mouth…probably about 2mm or so. Would this be an option to file the mouth a bit to accommodate a thicker after market blade and move the frog back?


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## MarkSr (Oct 14, 2012)

Logan,

You know when a gun collector buys an old musket and puts it on the wall above the mantle, well we call them wall hangers.

The pictures you are showing, I can get them here in Florida at Flea Markets for $10 - $25 and unless you are like our LumberJock, "Don W" I would just put it back together and place it on a shelf or mount it on the wall as a "Wall Hanger".

Unless money is no problem, I'd save up the money you are spending on those planes and go through Lie Nielsen or Veritas catalog and order what you need and you will have a beautiful plane for life, if properly taken care of.

Of course this is only MHO. Good luck on whatever you do, but just keep making sawdust.

As always


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## TedW (May 6, 2012)

I would like to see the restoration, start to finish. Hope you do it and I hope you share pics of the process.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Refurbbing a plane isn't as bad to do as some would want you to think. They would rather buy a new plane, than put just a bit of elbow grease into a veteran plane.

Small crack at the mouth on a smooth plane is no where near as bad as one on the longer jack/try planes. Less pressure on the short ones.

A bit of stripping, sanding, and refinishing goes a long ways on the wood parts.

Most of the planes I restore need some work with wire wheels to clean off the junk, dirt, grome and some rust. maybe some Ford Engine Black, or Rustoleum Black spray paint to keep things from rusting any furhter.

Sharpen the iron, give the plane a good tune up. Wire wheels will also clean off the rust on the threads of the bolts. Then a swipe with a light oil. Maybe a drop or two down the wellls in the base where the bolts were.

BEFORE one gets all excited about "lapping" the sole, check it for flat and square. Most rarely NEED to be lapped in the first place. Then, IF you feel it still needs a lap work, mark a bunch of lines across the sole with a black Sharpie pen. Run the sole on a sanding belt that is fastened down to a flat surface. Rub the assembled plane ( with the iron retracted enough to clear) back and forth a few times. You MIGHT see some improvement. Most of the smoothers I have done, only one so far needed to be lapped to death.

A straightedge along the sole will tell you where the bad spots are, if any. One does NOT need a mirror finish on the sole of a plane….back of the iron? Maybe, but not the sole.

Everything back together? iron sharp? Chipbreaker mates to the iron without any gaps? Set the Chipbreaker as close to the edge of the iron as you can, just see a thin silver line, is alll. Get some scrap, clamp it down, and shove the plane along with the grain. It might just surprise you….


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Case in point: A stanley Victor #1104 came into the shop awhile back









pretty, ain't it? Tore it all down to just parts, cleaned out the spider nests under the frog. Started to clean things back up









iron was sharpened up, chipbreaker mated to it. The sole did need some work









this is before the sanding took place









I think this is the one with the lines drawn









There is a hollow behind the mouth, but the rest of the sole is coplanar. Everything back togetherand some scrap wood to test it on









So, what to do now….


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## sikrap (Mar 15, 2009)

Personally, I'd clean it up to use. At the very least, you'll get some experience. I don't think it will bring any more than $40-$50 after its rehabbed, so you'll have to decide how much work you want to put into it. I've heard that putting a new Hock, LV, whatever iron in will improve performance, but the old irons will work just fine if you put the time into flattening/polishing the backs. Plenty of help around here if you decide to rehab it. Good Luck!!


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

Its all up to you. A type 5 isn't extremely valuable or rare. It can be a decent user.

I happen to need a type 5 at the moment and would make a trade, but I'm with Doc, I'm not sure that's what you have.


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## DocBailey (Dec 9, 2011)

I guess I'm saying the same thing as MarkSr - I'd treat this as a true antique and shelve it.

Also - opening the mouth so as to accommodate a thicker aftermarket blade, consists of enlarging the forward wall of the mouth-closest to the front knob. (this wouldn't address the stress cracks).

My point is that this is a relatively thin-walled casting which is already showing stress cracks. The last thing I would do is remove material from the casting (either by enlarging the mouth or lapping the sole)

Get yourself a more robust user and go to town with that one.


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## johnstoneb (Jun 14, 2012)

I would at least clean it up. With the amount of grime and rust you really can't tell what you have. Hot soapy water and a scrub brush will probably clean it enough the tell what you have and whether you want to go any further.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

What's with the front knob's brass nut? That's different.

Is the cutter marked?

I don't disagree Doc. Newer #4's are one of the most common, outside maybe the #5. And I missed the stress crack statement somehow. Once they start they just keep going.


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## Newboy1 (Nov 11, 2013)

Thanks for all the great info guys. I have a few glue ups to do this morning, but then I will see if I can scrub it up a bit and find any other marks on it. And yea Don, I thought the front knob's bolt was a little weird. It looks like it is actually threaded inside of that hole, and when I pull it out, it is actually knurled around the outside of it (the section that is recessed).


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## Newboy1 (Nov 11, 2013)

After a little clean up, here is what Ive found. The Body is not marked in any way…not even under the tote. The Cutter is marked "Stanley Ruler and Level Co" with the arched logo. Chip breaker is marked "L Bailey's Patent Dec 24th 1867". Lateral adjustment is Marked Stanley on top side, Feb 8, 76 and Oct 21 84 on the reverse. Brass adjustment wheel is stamped, but pretty hard to make out what it says. It is recessed.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

Lateral adjustment is Marked Stanley on top side, Feb 8, 76 and Oct 21 84 on the reverse.

Can you post some pictures of this. I've never seen any plane stamped on both front and back of the lateral adjuster. A typical type 5 would have all 3 on the face/front/top, what ever you'd call it. They added 2 more dates at the start of type 5. I wonder if yours got restamped kind of like a testing machinery stamp.

Is the depth adjust a right or left handed thread? A type 5 would still be right handed.

Depth adjusters were stamped up to and including type 6.

The cutter would be type 5.

A typical type 5 would have the size in it, so it could be a very early type 5 with a left over type 4 base, or someone could have broken the type 5 base and found a type 4 that needed a home.

Personally I'd clean it up, replace the knob nut and call it a collector, but that's just me.


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## Newboy1 (Nov 11, 2013)

Ask and ye shall receive!



















The depth adjuster is a right handed thread.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

Let me know if you think you'd want to sell or trade it. That lat is to cool.


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## Newboy1 (Nov 11, 2013)

Sent you a message Don.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

This plane found its way to my house. I did some research and still am not sure about the patent. I have a couple listed in my type 5 site.

I had a type 4 with a type 5 base, so a little flip flop and I have two correct.


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## ColonelTravis (Mar 19, 2013)

What kind of tote you got there, Don?


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

its rosewood with some sap wood. One of my favorites.


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## nicksmurf111 (Jun 6, 2014)

Logan,

I'd clean it up but not spend any money on it. Keep your eye out for a Stanley Bailey with a throat adjustment screw, specifically one that isn't damaged. They sell in my neck of the woods for $25 in tool stores and antique stores and no. 4's and no. 5's are usually always in stock. Keep the one you have for parts. The screws themselves are out of production and are worth "gold".


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## ColonelTravis (Mar 19, 2013)

I need to be on the lookout for some sappy rosewood. Great rehab on that interesting plane.


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## mileskimball (Nov 19, 2012)

If it's too far gone to make a good smoother, consider just converting it to a "scrub" plane. All that requires is to grind the blade to a significant curve (say a 5" or 6" radius). Polish the blade back, sharpen and hone the bevel, give the whole plane a quick going over with a wire brush, and clean the sole with steel wool and paste wax (don't worry about flattening the sole - you're not going to be using it on a very flat surface, anyway).

I have an old beater No. 4 set up this way - it's not as good as a dedicated scrub, but it really takes the stock down quickly, working cross grain and diagonal to the grain. The curved blade decreases the width of the cut, which allows you to set the blade pretty coarse for quick stock removal. It's also a heck of a lot cheaper than a real scrub, and does a perfectly good job.

I get a board about 90% flat with my "scrub," then go on to a jack, a smoother for tricky spots, and finally a jointer for the edges. It takes me about 20 minutes to work a 8" x 6' rough board to true and flat. I'm pretty tired out at the end, but it's a more entertaining workout than an elliptical machine!

The main thing, though: don't fetishize the tool - just use it if it's useful, and ditch it if it's not. If you like how it looks, call it "industrial art" and put in on a shelf, as-is, with all the dings, rusty fingerprints, grime, and patina that real woodworkers have contributed to it. Polishing it up removes all the traces of use that make an old tool delightful to contemplate.


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## mileskimball (Nov 19, 2012)

BTW, I say a 5" or 6" radius because a No. 4 blade is wider (2") than a dedicated scrub (typically 1.5"), which is usually ground to around a 3" radius. If you did a 3" radius on a No. 4, you'd end up with a really wide, deep curve. It'd be pretty hard to push at that rate. (Then again … maybe I'll experiment a bit!)


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## Newboy1 (Nov 11, 2013)

Thanks Everyone - The plane actually made its way to DonW for a rehab. I got a nice user #4 from him, and that plane he posted is his rehab on it (with a few different parts).


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## swirt (Apr 6, 2010)

@mileskimball If you go to this page and scroll all the way down to the bottom you will find a calculator for determining the optimum radius for a plane blade. Enter the bedding angle, the blade width and the depth of cut you want and it will spit out a radius
http://www.timberframe-tools.com/tools/scrub-plane-iron-cambering/

@Don W Have you had any luck with terminating a stress fracture by drilling a small hole at the "end" of the crack? It is a pretty common metalworking technique (works for wood too) but I have never tried it on a plane.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

Depending on where the crack was I wouldn't depend on just drilling a hole. I'd drill the hole then weld or braze.


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## nicksmurf111 (Jun 6, 2014)

I'd preheat the entire piece and cool slowly also. The weld will induce stress into the immediate area and cause it to warp.


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## mileskimball (Nov 19, 2012)

Thanks for the link, swirt! Gratifying to see that for a 1/16" depth of cut, a 2" blade needs a 5.7" radius - right in the 5" to 6" range I suggested.

But I think I'll just stick my tongue out, screw up one eye, and draw a reasonable curve to grind. Close enough is good enough for a scrub.


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