# Gel stain topcoating question



## depictureboy (Jun 5, 2008)

I am working on my finishing ideas for my display cabinet. I really liked the mission finish that was posted earlier with the yellow dye, then the stain, then the poly topcoat…I dont think my wife wants that look for this piece(plus I think I need some practice).

So I have a honey colored gel stain from bartley's. I have been doing my sample sticks, but I noticed a problem. After I stain the wood, and wipe it off and let it sit for about 12 hours or so, I add my varnish blend(3 parts poly, 1 part BLO, 1 part naptha) topcoat. I let it sit for about 15 minutes then wipe it off. I notice that there is some pulloff color from my stain. Its not noticeable on the piece(not to me anyway) but it does concern me. It could be a simple matter that I am too impatient and not waiting long enough to topcoat. But I wanted the opinions of the pros here on lumberjocks.

BTW…with the dye…I used RIT in SLX Denatured alcohol, and it raised the grain….whats up with that?


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## Waldschrat (Dec 29, 2008)

The Raised grain is comming from the application of the denatured alcohol… did you remember "water" your wood/project before you applied what ever stain that you applied?

The second problem is I believe that you are probably not waiting long enough for the stain to dry, perhaps not a well enough ventilated room?

I am a profesionel (but from germany) so not too familiar with the abrieviations that you mentioned but what I recommend is that you 
1. sand to what ever your final sand should be (finer approx. 240 for hard woods and approx. 180 for softwoods)
2. wet down the wood enough that the grain comes up, then let dry completly (alcohol drys quicker)
3. apply stain
4. let stain dry, OR (if too unpatient), use a polyeurathane/varnish coat that gets along with the stain… oil based with oil based water based with water based, that is if you are in a hurry and will not let the stain dry completely (by us here is the cost of time so much sometimes we do this) or stain and varnish in one mix is also useful. let dry again
5. in between sand (240 approx.) 
6. second and usually last coat of varnish/lack or whatever you are using… I would strongly recommend PUR 2K (polyuerathane 2 component) Lack/Varnish (I did not look in the dictionary, so I think that is how it is called in english)... inside of about lunch break (you apply the 2 component varnish before lunch) and it should be about ready to sand and spray again after lunch. It is easy to mix, pretty tough finish and very quick to apply and looks good! 
hope I was helpful…
good luck


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## teenagewoodworker (Jan 31, 2008)

with the gel you need a gel topcoat. remember that the gel stain is made to sit on top and will seal the wood. therefore your varnish could very well be having adhesion problems. so it is sitting on top and the solvent in the varnish because it is not soaking in but is sitting on top is slightly melting the gel stain. that is why you are losing some of the color. because after 12 hours a gel stain should not do this.


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## depictureboy (Jun 5, 2008)

Thanks, I didnt realize alcohol would raise the grain the same way water did.


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## depictureboy (Jun 5, 2008)

The barrier coat is also a great idea when using wiping varnishes over pigment stains, as the wiping motion on the first coat or two may wipe off the stain.

This is probably the problem I am having then, as its also affected my regular minwax stain that I was testing too. And it really is a wiping varnish now and not just a poly clear coat…

thanks!


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

Denis is correct….skip the BLO and naptha, its not helping you at all…its actually creating a softer finish,and the naptha and the Blo are serving to soften and redissolve the stain…and sealing it down isnt needed if you omit the naptha and blo


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## Woodchuck1957 (Feb 4, 2008)

I get a kick out of how difficult some people make putting a finish on something that should be so easy. It's rediculous. Also I would never sand hardwood down to 240 before applying a stain.


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## Waldschrat (Dec 29, 2008)

I think it was a little general with the recomendation to sand with 240 before staining, It depends on the type of stain (positiv chemical or negative) A light 240 I have found, gives a good finish, depending on the wood, with oak, ash, elm, cherry ist 240 maybe not needed (a bit overkill because you probably not notice), but with finder woods such as beech or maple, especially american maple, I think 240 is definetly a help, and after the wetting of the wood to raise the grain, again sanding very light with the 240 works great…. Again depending on what your doing… or the look and texture of the wood.

It should also be noted that the effect of the stain is also very effected by the end sand of the wood, 180 makes a different picture than sanded to 150 or 240, especially with softwoods (including soft hardwoods such as alder poplar). although going to 240 on pines is useless.

I just felt I had to defend my 240 on fine pored hardwoods technique…


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## Woodchuck1957 (Feb 4, 2008)

Well the problem with sanding a hardwood with such a fine grain before staining is you make it so smooth that a stain won't take well to it.


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## depictureboy (Jun 5, 2008)

I get a kick out of how difficult some people make putting a finish on something that should be so easy. It's rediculous.

Well being a newbie, there is lots of information and lots of it can be very confusing. My issue is that I guess I took advice that was for a simple wiping varnish for bare wood and am trying to apply it to a stained wood. Sorry to say the directions didnt say "DO NOT APPLY THIS TO STAINED WOOD". The logic of the mixture made sense to me, and it still does, For bare wood. Ill be changing my topcoat since that is where the issue lies.

You know you say it should be so easy, but I was at the library yesterday and the books on woodworking were outnumbered by the books on wood finishing. So even though according to you it should be 'easy' there is an audience that allows these authors to write these books.


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## teenagewoodworker (Jan 31, 2008)

240 is fine. as Waldschrat said he is german so he might be using the European grading system of sandpaper which is a little finer than the american version. it isn't much of a difference in the lower grits but in the higher grits its a big difference. also 240 is fine. and its not the wood being to smooth it won't take the stain. its burnishing the wood. because sanding is all little scratches and once the scratches get to small the molecules of the finish are not able to bind to the wood. because stain is made to bind and glue particles on the wood. thats why it obscures the grain a lot more than dyes which soak in. you don't get the problem of burnishing the wood though until you get above 600.


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## depictureboy (Jun 5, 2008)

Thanks teenagewoodworker. That was one of the things I thought maybe I had done too. I have sanded my piece too 220 and was afraid that was why it was coming up to. But I definately think the BLO has to do with it now. So I am just going to to with a wiping varnish of 3 to 1 poly to naptha.


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## Woodchuck1957 (Feb 4, 2008)

I don't think your issue lies in the topcoat. 600 grit ? LOL


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## teenagewoodworker (Jan 31, 2008)

yep that charts right. there isn't a huge difference in lower grits but in higher grits a euro 2000 is equal to a us 1000 - 1200


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## teenagewoodworker (Jan 31, 2008)

also remember. best to go with a gel topcoat now. the gel stain sealed off the wood and you want a gel topcoat which is made to sit on top unlike what you are using which is made to soak in. in the situation you have it at now it might not take well.


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## toddc (Mar 6, 2007)

By reading your original question I would say this;

1. Most off the shelf consumer grade stains, be they gel or not, need 24 hours of dry time before topcoat. That time is calibrated on something like 70 degrees at 50% humidity. If your environment is colder it extends the dry time. If the topcoat is water based and the stain is oil based you better make sure it is *DRY*, give it extra time to be sure. I have seen finish release from the wood because of this. It turns white due to the separation and starts flaking off.

2. Your finish has solvents that are dissolving the stain so that you are pulling it back off. This will happen no matter how long you let it dry. If you apply a stain and then apply a topcoat that has common solvents to the stain you stand a chance of re-activating it. If the finish is sprayed you do not disturb the stain so it is not an issue. If you brush the finish, you may move the stain around if you brush it too many times.

In your case, the finish with solvent is sitting on the stained surface and it is re-activating the stain. When you wipe off the excess you are pulling off the re-activated stain.

3. The level to which woodworkers sand their projects does not create an adhesion issue so do not concern yourself with it. The various grits will cause the stain to be absorbed at various rates but finish adhesion is *NOT* an issue.

4. I use Sherwin Williams or MLCampbell professional stains. They come in either a 2 hour or 30 minute (yes 30 minutes) dry time. The solvents are hotter (think lacquer thinner compared to paint thinner) and evaporate faster so you can topcoat more quickly. For waterbased topcoats the dry time has to be extended. All the other products with a 24 hour dry time (Minwax, General, Bher) waste my time. You can buy the same stain that I can, these products do not require a special license the marketing is just not geared to the average joe consumer. Buying these products hardly costs any more and the outlets have sales people and reps that are knowledgeable and will help you.

You are right, finishing is not that hard. The woodworking industry - magazines and instructional videos - make it complicated. I can assure you that no professionals or cabinet shops make it that complicated. We make it as easy as possible so that we can make money. We use high performance products that are developed to make us money for our time on a project.


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## teenagewoodworker (Jan 31, 2008)

very true tod. i was wrong with my thing above. i said adhesion but now that i look at it i was trying to point at what you said just didn't do a good job at it. finishing is one of those things that looks intimidating but once you get it it isn't hard. i use spray guns and all that stuff. but like todd i use professional products. general finished is one of my favorites. also i have used some gemini and bartly. very good products. like because they dry so fast i can go from regular wood to a finished product in a day. like here would be a pro finishing schedual

dye - water, 15-20 minutes
alcohol, 5 - 10 minutes and you are good

shellac barrier coat - 30 minutes

wb stain - 1-2 hours

wb poly topcoat - 1 hour recoat

so when i go from poplar to a finished product it takes me about 6 - 8 hours depending on how many coats. this is spraying. so by the time i am totally done the minwax oil is still tacky.


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## depictureboy (Jun 5, 2008)

thanks for all the info guys. I am using Bartley's gel..so maybe I am part way there..hehe..I dont have the room for spray stuff yet though I have thought about it for the future. (overspray..bleh)


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## CanalboatJim (Oct 20, 2008)

My wife has worked in and owned a paint store for the past twenty-five years and the single biggest problem she encountered with staining was the failure of the finisher to wait till the stain was completely dry. If the stain is the slightest bit damp it will lift when the finish is applied. This seems to happen more frequently with gel stains because much of the pigment is sitting on the surface of the wood. In the future you might try a wiping stain rather than a gel stain. It gives you most of the control qualities of a gel with a little more penetration.
If your shop is in the basement like mine I would double the recommended drying time. The lower temperature and higher humidity will really slow down the drying( curing) time.
A nice quick arts and crafts look can be achieved with a 50%/50% mix of special walnut stain and red mahogany stain. This gives a rich brown with the red undertones you see in craftsman furniture.


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