# Feds raid Gibson Guitar for import of exotic Ebony lumber



## Dcase (Jul 7, 2010)

http://www.wkrn.com/story/15325684/feds-raid-gibson-guitar-corp-in-nashville

Not sure if anyone else saw this yet…

Seems like there are bigger problems then the import of Ebony but thats just my opinion.


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## Dcase (Jul 7, 2010)

They were investigated in 2009n but there were no charges. Looks like this time the feds came in and sent all the workers home…


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## sarahss (Feb 23, 2011)

Apparantely, the factory in memphis was raided yesterday but no reason why released yet.


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## docholladay (Jan 9, 2010)

Very interesting. My favorite guitar is an old Gibson acoustic made back in 1960.

To be quite honest, while I don't want companies abusing and using woods till they go into extinction, I really believe that our government and law enforcement agencies have much bigger problems than worrying about whether Gibson uses a little ebony on their guitars.

Doc


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

It's not the use of ebony that is likely raising red flags, it's probably 
the purchasing of black market ebony stolen from sovereign countries
where it grows and smuggled out.


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## DanLyke (Feb 8, 2007)

Wow. Someone in Gibson must be screwing up big time, or someone in the Customs & Border Protection Agency has a hard-on for Gibson.

I know a couple of people involved in guitar manufacture, and they're super super careful to not only make sure that their Lacey Act paperwork is in order, but to know their suppliers and have a personal relationship so that they trust those overseas suppliers to not ship them contraband wood.

Like the other commenters in this thread, I'll add my voice to the chorus of "being complicit in logging species into extenction is bad", and even note that this isn't necessarily about over-logging, but about simple theft of trees. Part of being a good international citizen is keeping a check on the trafficking of stolen goods.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

^That's what I was thinking, Dan. Gibson's in a position to simply charge more for legal ebony. Someone's got a bone to pick (I liked your expression better)


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## juniorjock (Feb 3, 2008)

hard-on for Gibson

Don't think I've ever heard that on LumberJocks….............. You know better, Dan.
- JJ


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Someone definitely wants to get Gibson for some reason; probably didn't support the right candidate of some office. Too bad the feds don't go after real problems Merrill Lynch or Goldman Sachs?


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

It is also the fact that it is from Madagascar. It will be a desert island before long instead of what was a rainforest with unique species.
_

...from Wikipedia…
Deforestation with resulting desertification, water resource degradation and soil loss has affected approximately 94% of Madagascar's previously biologically productive lands. Since the arrival of humans 2000 years ago, Madagascar has lost more than 90% of its original forest. Most of this loss has occurred since independence from the French, and is the result of local people using slash-and-burn agricultural practices as they try to subsist. Largely due to deforestation, the country is currently unable to provide adequate food, fresh water and sanitation for its fast growing population.
Primary causes of forest loss include* slash-and-burn *for agricultural land (a practice known locally as tavy) and for pasture, selective logging for precious woods or construction material, the collection of fuel wood (including charcoal production), and forest clearing for mining.
_

The slash and burn highlighted above has NOTHING AT ALL TO DO with Slash the guitarist, the fact that he can burn at times or the precious Ebony fretboards that all real les paul's should have (instead of sissy rosewood or maple). I'm just sayin'... ;=)


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## pierce85 (May 21, 2011)

I fought a speeding ticket once by arguing that there were far more important things for the criminal justice system to worry about than my alleged speeding on the highway. For some odd reason, the judge wasn't impressed with my argument and I had to pay the ticket.

I'm sure this won't come as a surprise to anyone, but I used to get beat up a lot on the playground


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

Hmmm. I used to beat up a kid named Pierce on the playground. j/k


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## Roz (Jan 13, 2008)

Man I hope that does not drive the price up on they. I am looking to buy one soon. Many of these countries look the other way if a dollar is to be made and don't really care a wit about thier endangered species but our govenment goes after American business. Gibson must be creating too many jobs.


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## pierce85 (May 21, 2011)

^who exactly then should the Law Enforcement Division of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service go after? Or is it the enforcement of environmental laws that you find problematic? Regardless, this is what the Law Enforcement Division of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service does - enforce the environmental laws that Congress enacted.

As others have pointed out, this isn't Gibson's first run in with law enforcement regarding alleged violations of the Lacey Act. They'll be given due process like anyone else accused of violating the law…


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

There is no reasonable expectation of justice in this country any more. You get what you can pay for. No money, you are screwed! King County police are a prefect example. No time to do anything in the south county except set at the bottom of hills on arterials writing tickets to people who aren't riding their brake all the way down. Speeders going 55 in a residential neighborhood, too bad. All your tools stolen and out of business, too bad. Move to Microsoft Country up near Redmond; have a speeder problem, they are on it now!! Leave your car door open when unloading groceries; they will wake yoiu at 2 AM to see if there was a break in. I know of personal instances of these tings going on for over a decade.

What should Fish and Wildlife be doing? Be transfered to investigating the banking and Wall Street criminals that took down the economy and destroyed millions of peoples live; that's what!!


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## pierce85 (May 21, 2011)

Topa, you know that we agree at least in principle on what should be done with the Wall Street criminals. In the best of all possible worlds, I would advocate a more permanent solution but that's just wishful thinking on my part.

I'm sure Gibson (whether guilty or not) will succeed in purchasing the justice it hopes and expects to receive, like every other corporate body. But there are those extremely rare occasions when the corporate money machine doesn't succeed, people do go to jail, and big fines are levied. Yeah, it is a joke in the grand scheme of things, barely a drop in the bucket, but it's something.

What bothers me more are the corporate apologists who want to shield these white-collar criminals from any sort of legal or ethical scrutiny because prices on their favorite goodies just might go up if they're not allowed to do whatever the hell they please. Don't piss them off because they might take their ball and go to India or China to play - oh wait, they're already doing that. See what WE did…


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

By the time it's all over with half of everybody that is working in this country will be working for the government. I believe that it is already up to 26%. That's about one in four already.


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## zwwizard (Mar 30, 2008)

The government in it's great wisdom and looking out for you, will take this wood and burn it


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## Planeman40 (Nov 3, 2010)

It appears that most of you did not read further on in the article about people traveling across the U.S. border having their musical instruments confiscated by border agents and receiving fines for not having the appropriate papers stating the origins of the materials in their instruments, even very obviously antique instruments.

With the ever increasing regulation we are are experiencing by the federal government we Lumberjocks can expect the same confiscation and fines for our projects that use exotic woods and even woods that appear to be exotic unless we can provide the appropriate papers that PROVE they did not come from restricted sources.

Take this as a WARNING!

Planeman


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## Viktor (Jan 15, 2009)

Pierce85, ha-ha post #12 was a good one, concise and to the point. And here is the irony: if the government was turning a blind eye to the smuggling of endangered species, the same people would be complaining why is it not doing anything… yawn…


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## Nomad62 (Apr 20, 2010)

If they didn't take a percentage of their time to investigate a crime of any sort then it would then be okay for anyone to commit that crime. All laws must be enforced to a degree, and the degree is decided by people charged with the responsiblility of figuring out the best overall degree is for their particular situation. They can't possibly make everyone happy; but seeing where someone got busted for doing what we are all forbidden to do is encouraging to me. Maybe the next whoever will think twice about doing it, and buy legal wood for the price that we all need to pay for the priveledge of having it.


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## Viktor (Jan 15, 2009)

Planeman40, I just looked through the article and it says no such thing.


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## Planeman40 (Nov 3, 2010)

Look again Viktor!

The article at http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904787404576530520471223268.html says:

"Cross an international border with an instrument made of that now-restricted wood, and you better have correct and complete documentation proving the age of the instrument. Otherwise, you could lose it to a zealous customs agent-not to mention face fines and prosecution"

The article further says:

"John Thomas, a law professor at Quinnipiac University and a blues and ragtime guitarist, says "there's a lot of anxiety, and it's well justified." Once upon a time, he would have taken one of his vintage guitars on his travels. Now, "I don't go out of the country with a wooden guitar."

The tangled intersection of international laws is enforced through a thicket of paperwork. Recent revisions to 1900's Lacey Act require that anyone crossing the U.S. border declare every bit of flora or fauna being brought into the country. One is under "strict liability" to fill out the paperwork-and without any mistakes.

It's not enough to know that the body of your old guitar is made of spruce and maple: What's the bridge made of? If it's ebony, do you have the paperwork to show when and where that wood was harvested and when and where it was made into a bridge? Is the nut holding the strings at the guitar's headstock bone, or could it be ivory? "Even if you have no knowledge-despite Herculean efforts to obtain it-that some piece of your guitar, no matter how small, was obtained illegally, you lose your guitar forever," Prof. Thomas has written. "Oh, and you'll be fined $250 for that false (or missing) information in your Lacey Act Import Declaration."

Consider the recent experience of Pascal Vieillard, whose Atlanta-area company, A-440 Pianos, imported several antique Bösendorfers. Mr. Vieillard asked officials at the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species how to fill out the correct paperwork-which simply encouraged them to alert U.S. Customs to give his shipment added scrutiny.

There was never any question that the instruments were old enough to have grandfathered ivory keys. But Mr. Vieillard didn't have his paperwork straight when two-dozen federal agents came calling.

Facing criminal charges that might have put him in prison for years, Mr. Vieillard pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor count of violating the Lacey Act, and was handed a $17,500 fine and three years probation."


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## pierce85 (May 21, 2011)

Planeman40, the article that Dan linked to in the OP is not the WSJ article that you're referring to. Unless I missed it, yours is the first time the WSJ link has appear on this thread. Was there any reason why we should have known that you were referring to an entirely different article than the one Dan posted?


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## Planeman40 (Nov 3, 2010)

pierce85,

I never saw any other article. The only article I have seen is the Wall Street Journal article. I have mistakenly understood we were referencing that article. Obviously two sources, maybe more.

Planeman


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## pierce85 (May 21, 2011)

No worries, Planeman40.

The potential for guitar players to have their Brazilian Rosewood back and sided, elephant ivory saddled, Madagascar ebony fretboard and bridged, West African ivory tuning pegged, guitars confiscated when traveling abroad is a real concern if you're lacking the necessary documentation. I don't worry about such things because I could never afford such a guitar - I own a Larrivee - and would never travel abroad with my guitar anyway.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Pierce, it's even more dangerous to travel United with your Taylor, lol.

http://e-strategyblog.com/2009/07/revenge-of-the-customer-united-airlines-breaks-guitars/


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## pierce85 (May 21, 2011)

Al, That's one of the great success stories of creative consumer payback. The horror stories about airlines trashing guitars are endless. Although, the airline industry has helped create a lucrative market for many high-end case manufacturers…


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

So If Danelectro (they made their bodies out of Masonite) joined forces with Travis Bean (known for all aluminum (aluminium to you Queen-fearing guys)) then we'd never have anything to worry about (other than the fact that it would probably sound like crap and better not get it wet). ;=)


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## pierce85 (May 21, 2011)

David, this is my next project -


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## crank49 (Apr 7, 2010)

According to Gibson, the wood confiscated was from certified and approved suppliers, and came from managed forests. Further, the fed's reason for the raid had nothing to do with the source of the wood, but the fact it came from India and was being processed by American workers. A distorted interpretation of the Lacey act. India has laws that prevent their wood from being exported and processed elsewhere. But, Gibson claims they had the full approval of Indian authorities. Of course, Gibson's materials which were taken by the Gestapo.. oops, feds a couple of years ago have never been released even though no charges have been filed.


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

I have never been in a Rockler/Woodcraft/Home Depot/Lowe's/etc. And I have never purchased ebony, walnut, rosewood, canary wood, white oak, red oak, padauk, bloodwood, mahogany, pine, fir, redwood, cedar, birch, maple burl, walnut burl, claro walnut or curly cherry. I'm sure there are other woods I have not purchased or worked, but I'll have to go out to the garage and look. Oh, and I don't even know what shellac is, let alone lacquer. XD


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## marker (Oct 14, 2010)

Another thing or two to consider, and I have not personally verified this information:

1. The government is completely out of control. There are now so many laws that we likely are in violation of something, just by sitting here and doing nothing. Neither the lawmakers, not the enforcers have any idea of all the laws on the books.

2. The reason for the raid was some loose interpretation of laws in India, not the U.S.

3. The raid may also have political implications. Gibson was a net Republican contributor while its competitor, CF Martin was a big time Democrat donor. Remember, reward your friends and punish your enemies.


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## WinterSun (Apr 3, 2011)

Planeman: the WSJ article doesn't tell the whole story regarding the A-440 Pianos case. I've already addressed this on a music forum in a thread sensationally titled "Not Knowing Where Your Instrument Came From Could Cost You $17k." If it was simply a case of not having one's paperwork straight, I think there would've been a different disposition.

The invoice accompanying the U.S. Customs and Border Protection entry packet declared 10 of the 11 pianos in the shipment as having "no ivory keys." No Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species permits or U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service declarations accompanied the shipment. Two pianos had the keyboards removed and five pianos had the individual keys removed.

Investigators noted two piano keyboards were in the bottom of a crate under furniture and personal effects. The individual keys were located in a crate under a tray of marking pens. The keyboards and individual keys were positively identified to be covered with elephant ivory, which requires a permit to be imported or exported.

(from http://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/news/2010/11/18/atl-piano-co-ceo-guilty-of-ivory.html)


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

marker, I think you have solved the mystery. I figured out long ago that most laws are used to push the medium money people the directiion the big money wants them to move and to keep the little people scared and inline.


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## Planeman40 (Nov 3, 2010)

More on the Gibson situation.

Here is an interview with Gibson's CEO Henry Juszkiewicz in which he says says *the government told him not to use American labor* and his problems would go away!

It is a VERY interesting interview and I recommend you listen to it.

http://www.kmj580.com/common/global_audio/174/34048.mp3

Planeman


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

It will be a collector's item !


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