# Thinning paint for spraying - Dialing it in



## dave_oh

I'm about to paint cabinets with Benjamin Moore Advance Waterborne Alkyd and would like to spray it with my Earlex 5500.

Out of the can, the viscosity of BM Advance is over 400 seconds. The Earlex will spray anything 160 seconds or better but I saw someone say on another thread that they can spray the BM Advance just fine after thinning it 10%.

But, I'm a cheap lazy B:$tard so before I thin a quart and potentially waste paint & cleanup time, I wanted to see if I could verify that statement. It seems hard to believe that adding 1 part water (which has a viscosity around 12 seconds) to 9 parts BW advance would bring its viscosity from 400+ seconds down to under 160.

Anybody out there want to try a simple science experiment? If not, maybe the folks who've sprayed this successfully can convince me to give it a try 

Thanks in advance for the help, everyone!

*Edit: After reading the very useful advice below, I got a good result by:*

1. Thinning the BM Advance by 10% with tap water and mixing it thoroughly - this cut the viscosity from 400 down to 160 or so.
2. Using a 2mm needle
3. Mixing the thinned paint (I made a 300 mL batch) for 2 minutes with a 1 gallon helix paint mixer from Home Depot:









Surprisingly, the last step was absolutely *critical*. I'd tried the exact same mix of paint earlier and hand-stirred it for a minute instead of mixing with the mixer above. The paint did not flow well out of the gun and I got a very rough finish. I didn't measure the viscosity of the drill-stirred mix but it definitely seemed to flow better.

Now it's time to spray some cabinets. Thanks, everyone, for the advice!


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## badcrayon

I work for a paint company I personally wouldn't thin the product more than 20% . More with start to break down the paint and could cause it to fail.


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## Woodbridge

I attended a seminar given by an Earlex rep and he said that you would thin paint somewhere between 10-15%


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## wapakfred

You will be quite amazed at how quickly the flow increases with the addition of a little thinner. That said, water borne finishes cannot be thinned on a wim…be sure to check what the max is that BM suggests and don't exceed that. To do so may impact the chemistry of the paint.


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## dave_oh

Thanks guys. I've seen the BM recommendation to thin "slightly" if needed for airless sprayers. I'm wondering if 10% will get me anywhere close to the needed viscosity - Fred's comment about how fast things start to thin out has me encouraged, though.

Fred, do you know how the chemistry is affected? Is it sheen, color, bonding ability, or "all of the above"?


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## firefighterontheside

Fred, I just sprayed some water based poly thru my 5500 today. I asked earlextech about how much to thin and he said about 10%. I doubt I went that far and it worked perfectly. I'd be interested to know how yours works out.


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## dave_oh

I don't know how the water-based poly compares to the BM Advance on viscosity…how long does it take to drain through the magic viscosity cup before it's thinned?


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## ducky911

Just finished a project with latex paint. You need to thin until it works. I have both the earlex 5000 and Fuji 4 stage.
I thin the paint with 10 percent water.
double the leveling stuff frestol (sp) recommended
than waterbase poly until I get it to where I want it.

thin down to 30 sec and see how you like it. My project I just did came out perfect. I will try to edit this in a few with a picture.

I have been told that stiring with a drill helps but have yet to try it.

at 160sec your earlex will not work. try a small cup of my meothod


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## ducky911

another pic


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## RocketDogs

This may help…. I have sprayed BM Advance and SW pro Classic….with excellent results in my Earlex 6900
This is what I do….I start with 32 oz of paint in a separate container add 1 viscosity cup( 4 oz )of water….2 oz of Flotrol
( Some BM paints you have to use BM's paint conditioner but not Advance)....mix with a low speed drill for 2 minutes….per Earlextech advice…..then filter into another container…..then mix with a stir stick….Here is the important part…....When the paint quits running off the stick in a stream….within 1 or two seconds….it should drip like a rain drop….perfect circular beads….if not add 1/2 to 1 oz more water and mix with the stick until you get the rain drops at the end…..this method ended all the mystery about thinning for me and my Earlex 6900

FWIW…BM Advance flowed well with about 5 oz of water…..And SW proclassic worked very well with 6 oz of water
Both got 2 oz of Flotrol
Hope this helps

RocketDogs


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## dave_oh

ducky911, great finish! thanks for the info.

RocketDogs, that's really helpful - I really appreciate the detailed description!


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## RocketDogs

If you want cheap paint to practice with Sherwin Williams has sample quarts for around $7.00 a quart…..same thickness as regular paint….but it will fade over time so its not really paint….plus you get to keep the handy quart container….her is a link

http://www.sherwin-williams.com/homeowners/products/catalog/color_to_go/

RocketDogs


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## dave_oh

Thanks, RocketDogs.


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## dave_oh

I wanted to post a follow-up. After the advice above I thinned the BM Advance 10% (1 part water to 10 parts paint) and re-measured. The viscosity was just a hair over 160 sec - down from over 400 sec without thinning.

When I sprayed the stuff I got OK atomization - not awesome, not horrible - but then I realized during cleanup that I also had my 2mm needle mounted. That's probably the culprit behind the mediocre atomizing so I'll try the next coat with a 1.5mm needle and dial back the paint flow a bit.

Once I get things tuned in I'll post some pics. Thanks, all.


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## dave_oh

Well, now I'm confused. Tonight I tried spraying the same 10% thinned BM advance with a 1.5mm tip, thinking the 2mm might have been too big for complete atomization.

I adjusted the spray with the 1.5 and was still getting so-so atomization so I tried the smallest paint flow I could…low enough that it took holding the gun stationary 4-5 seconds to even coat the spray pattern on the test sheet. Even so, I still got some splatter. I also opened up and tried some higher flows - all the way up to "splatter city". No matter what I tried, nothing gave me good results. So, I picked the best compromise between splatter & paint flow and tried a coat of paint. I got similar results to my first spray with the 2mm tip but it took over twice as long due to the lower paint flow. So much for better atomization (at least with the BM advance) with the smaller needle.

So, my only conclusion is that the paint is STILL too thick. Could it something else I'm doing (or not doing)? Do I thin the BM Advance more than 10% (i.e. faster than 160 sec), go back to the 2mm needle and try again, buy a better gun, or go back to my Purdy brush (which is giving me a smoother finish than the gun so far)?

Thanks guys.


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## dave_oh

I think I finally dialed in a good combination. I went back to the 2mm needle and the 10%-thinned BM Advance but this time I used a drill to stir it for 2 minutes instead of hand-stirring for 1 minute. It laid down with much less splatter and, while it's still not a piano-grade finish, it was nice and smooth. Certainly good enough for my purposes.

I'd heard that's the case with stirring these paints - something about the long molecules of paint lining up like spaghetti in a whirlpool when you stir well - which makes it easier to get out of the gun when you spray.

Whew, that was tedious - but a good lesson learned…


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## Earlextech

Rocketdogs was exactly right and you're exactly right about the molecules. In all other finishes the molecules are dots already (designed to be sprayed). It's easy to atomize dots into smaller dots. In "latex or waterborne paints" the molecules are spagetti shaped (not desgned to be sprayed) and stirring with a stick does not break them up. Using the paddle mixer in a drill does.
Some people get better results with different needles. One thing to keep in mind is that we are all different and our expectations are different. There is no "one answer fits all" final answer. Sometimes it takes some experimentation to find what works for you and I'm glad you did.


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## dave_oh

Exactly. You and Rocketdogs seem to have the right approach. Now I might see if the Flotrol helps the coat flow out even more smoothly. I was afraid to tinker too much with the chemistry of the paint.


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## RocketDogs

Dave
Glad you are getting better results….Also play with the distance from the object you are spraying….sometimes 4 inches will give you less splatter…..remember a dollar bill is a hair over 6 inches….use that as your guide….I think I am usually spraying less than 6 inches more like 4 or 5…..also the Flotrol helps …..I have gone up to 4 oz. for 32 oz. of SW pro Classic….using a 1.5 needle….with great results…..I am almost done with my kitchen spraying over 40 doors and drawers….2 thin coats SW primer front and back….2 coats SW Pro Classic front and back….and 2 coats General Finish High Performance water based poly on the backs then 4 coats on the front…..a lot more work than I realized I was getting into….But it is coming out beautiful…..far beyond my expectations….couldn't be happier….Earlextech (Sam)....is very well versed about this stuff….he wouldn't send you in the wrong direction

Also…..when spraying ….always check for build up on the needle tip….clean it with your fingernail or an old toothbrush….sometime it can build up quick….when the gun get a little warm

Hope this helps

RocketDogs


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## retfr8flyr

Dave I have the 6900 and something I have tried that believe it or not works very well is to use winter grade auto washer fluid, to thin the paint. I picked this up from a youtube video and although I couldn't believe it, I tried it and it really works. The fluid I use is from Walmart and it's blue but it doesn't seem to affect the final color at all, even white. There is methanol in the fluid and it really helps make the paint flow. I have sprayed SW, BM and Valspar paint with excellent results and never needed to thin but 10%, or less. I also stir the mix with an electric drill mixer and that helps.

I have also had better results with non-alkyd type latex paint. If you have some leftover paint from a project, give it a try and see if it works for you.


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## ducky911

Wow that's great that stirring made such a difference. I knew about stirring but have never tried it. I will next time.

I would not spray until you get completely splat free.


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## Bulkhead

I know this is an old post, but rather than create a new thread on the same topic, I thought I'd post my questions on this one.

I am spraying cabinets with the Benjamin Moore Advance paint also and wanted to get your input. I am hoping that since it has been over a year since the last post on this thread that additional experience can be shared.

I am starting my third batch of applying the first coat on panels and wanted to check in with you guys because I am not getting the results I want. (I figure I can make some corrections on additional coats)

I have applied BM Advance primer and sanded smooth, and cleaned up surface with a damp cloth (water).

First batch, I sprayed the paint unthinned with a 1.5 needle. Results were probably as you would expect, good, but not great. A little orange peel and tiny "craters" that look like they were very small bubbles before the crowns popped.

Second batch, I have thinned paint to about 8% or so with distilled water and stirred with a stick in the paint cup thoroughly. Better results, but still not as good as I would like. Much less orange peel, but not totally smooth finish.

My concern is that if I don't get a better coat now, my final coat won't look as good as I'd like (because I'll be using the same techniques).

So a couple questions. First, should I change tips? I have the 2.0 tip.

Second, is it essential that I use a drill and mixing "bit" or will a stir stick suffice?

Regarding test spray patterns, is there a good resource you can point me to that illustrates what a good spray pattern should look like? I have seen comments about "splatter" I can say that when I spray this material, I do not get a consistent "mist" at all points of distribution on the surface I am spraying. There is more material in the middle of the spray pattern. Is this normal, or can you achieve a truly even spray pattern?

Also, I am wondering if you would comment on top coats. I am under the impression that Benjamin Moore intends that their Advance product is intended as a final top coat. However, I see many "professionals" comment that they always finish a painted surface with a clear coating. What is your opinion on the value and need of doing this versus not doing this?

Do you guys sand, steel wool, buff or otherwise perform a final operation on the top coat (whatever that material may be)?

Thank you in advance and apologies for resurrecting an old thread!


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## dave_oh

I tried both hand mixing (smoothly and for a LONG time) and the helix paint mixer. I was stunned by how much better the result was with the helix mixer. Once I fould the right viscosity with the 2mm needle it worked great - a bit of sputter on application but it smoothed as it dried.

Afterwards I got curious and tried going back down to the 1.5 needle with the same viscosity to see if it atomized better. I didn't like the result.

I also found that once the BM Advance had fully cured (which, believe it or not, takes about a week) you can go after it with automotive rubbing compound to improve the smoothness. I havent tried a topcoat but I'll be curious what we hear about that.


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## JCLP

Hi Dave, I have been following your post and need to ask how you get a non gritty coat with the Earlex 5500, 2mil needle and Advance paint. I have been trying for over a month and 3 gallons of paint with no success. I'm using the 2mil needle and thinning the paint by 10& and stirring it with a palette mixer as well. How far are you from the surface, how big is your fan and approx. how far out is the knob on the gun. Your help would be greatly appreciated. 
Thanks.


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## dave_oh

It sounds like you're trying everything I did. I hold the gun 8-12" away and overlap 50% with each pass. Before spraying I adjusted the flow just to the point I was clearly getting splatter and then I backed off until it stopped. The paint goes on with a bit of orange peel but levels as it dries.

Good luck!


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## JCLP

Hi Dave,
Thank you for the quick response. I just did another, one of many, test using the info you gave me and I'm not having any success. I found that when the gun is 8-12" away from the material that you do not get full coverage and multiple passes are needed in order to get an even coat. I did what you recommended regarding the splatter. Paint was diluted 10%. 
I am only mixing 300mil of paint with 30 mil of warm water. Do you think by filling the pot more things would work better?
Thx.


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## dave_oh

I do make multiple passes, if that helps. left to right, then top to bottom. Beyond that, I'm afraid I'm out of ideas. Maybe some of the experts here can add ther ideas?


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## JCLP

> I do make multiple passes, if that helps. left to right, then top to bottom. Beyond that, I m afraid I m out of ideas. Maybe some of the experts here can add ther ideas?
> 
> - Dave


Sounds that's what I got to do. I did one board with 1 pass and a second with 2 passes and the second board looks better. Also, I think this paint likes to be applied thick due to the heavy amount of solids in the paint. It's been an extremely frustrating exercise as I have been using this paint for years applying it by hand with great results but decided to try spraying to save time. So far it's not working that way. Back to drawing board as they say.
Thanks so much for your input. Here is what I'm getting.


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## tomsteve

was your spray area clean and were the surfaces blown off/wiped off with a tack cloth?


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## dave_oh

Good thought. I used a DIY pray booth


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## JCLP

Yes area is clean. I found that if I put the paint on too thin the specs appear. This paint likes to go on thick. It something in the chemical makeup of waterborne that does this according to Sherwin Williams and Benjamin Moore.
More test tonight.


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## dave_oh

You might try buffing out a test panel with auto rubbing compound after it fully hardens (about a week)

One other though - are these maybe air bubbles? I stir at a slow speed to prevent them (although if the sprayer is atomizing well I wouldn't think air bubbles would appear).


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## JCLP

Just tried spraying at 15% and 10% with no success. I stayed about 12" away from the surface and dial back the a little as soon as I saw splatter. the paint does go on very thin and noticed it was nearly impossible to keep a dry edge when doing the overlap. The air from the gun seems to dry it to quickly. Still using 2mil needle. I noticed when the paint hits the laid downed paint on the 50% overpass it really bombards the surface and creates craters, even at 12" apart.
You would by any chance live in the toronto area would you. Would like to see this done.
Cheers,


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## 000

I think your paint is still to thick and/or there is not enough atomizing happening, but I don't have experience with the hvlp so I'm only guessing. I would take a small amount and reduce it way down and work your way up to see what happens. 
One other thought, is paint drying on the nozzle and spitting little pcs into the paint while you spray, or are those strictly air bubbles?


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## WOODIE1

I just sprayed some cabs with a TRUE COAT 2 and SW latex. I will tell you latex likes to be played down heavy. Panel should look like you just spilled water on it and coated evenly. It will dry flatter and orange peel free.

I agree the mixing makes a ton of difference. The other big help is also heating the paint with a heat gun to get it up to temp. It is winter and even in CA it gets cold enough to drop a gallon left in unheated shop to about 50 degrees. HUGE difference in both flow and flow out of the paint.

Also you have to use a strainer to eliminate any particles in your paint.

I have tried using the turbine set ups and honestly just think they are better at thinner based materials that require atomization vs a latex that needs to be sprayed heavily and evenly. You aren't atomizing it you are spraying it on. Think about it, you ca use enough Floetrol and water where if you simply rolled it on you can get an even coat.

Good luck and hope it works out. Prep, prep and more prep.


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## dave_oh

Good idea about temperature. I sprayed in the summer so it was probable 80-ish degrees. I dont spray in the winter because my garage is unheated.


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## dave_oh

Anybody else have thoughts? I agree it's a pain to spray paint with a lower-end HVLP. I think I'm going to get a Graco airless and try that for my cabinet painting and save the earlex for stains and dyes.


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