# How to Stick it to Stickley



## Sigung (Nov 20, 2013)

Well, Stickley really knows how to put the Stick in Stickley.

I requested some information from them on their #703 finish because I have a client who wants me to refinish a 1994 Stickley dining room table.

They refused to even give me any guidance, much less tell me about their formulation, citing it as being proprietary.

Thank God for the Internet, though, apparently Gustav was not nearly so concerned about this as the modern day company seems to be, as he published a step by step article in Craftsman magazine in 1905, which is in the public domain, and which I found, and which information I certainly will not be sharing with Stickley.

In the spirit of sharing information with my fellow Lumberjocks, though, here is the link to the article.


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## Yonak (Mar 27, 2014)

Good for you, Jerry. It's interesting how when someone gets started with a good idea he's anxious to share his idea because he's proud of it but when it becomes popular and when his heirs get involved or when the lawyers com a-knockin' the company clams, and gets all lawyered, up. Something tells me there's scarce resemblance between Gustav's ideals and the current company.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

I don't think Stickley did anything wrong or unethical . Do you really think companies should hand out proprietary information to any Tom, Dick, and Harry that wants to know their formulation and process they developed on their time and money?

Every try to get a famous chef to give up their secret recipe?


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## Sigung (Nov 20, 2013)

> I don t think Stickley did anything wrong or unethical . Do you really think companies should hand out proprietary information to any Tom, Dick, and Harry that wants to know their formulation and process they developed on their time and money?
> 
> Every try to get a famous chef to give up their secret recipe?
> - AlaskaGuy


Never said they were doing anything unethical, what I did imply is that they were complete asses about helping out someone trying to preserve their legacy, lied to me about it being proprietary ( now that I've read the article I can see that the formulations are quite common PLUS they are published by Gustav Stickley himself ), and refused to even send me in the right general direction. This a brave new digital world, companies need to learn to limit their exposure. Now their so-called "secret formula" has been exposed to upwards of 106,000 woodworkers, and for what? All for the lack of a little common decency.


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## Kentuk55 (Sep 21, 2010)

Hey Jerry. Thnx for that link. It seems to be filled with info. I wouldn't be too upset. AlaskaGuy has a point. With the almighty internet, there is always a way.. lol


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## Sigung (Nov 20, 2013)

> Hey Jerry. Thnx for that link. It seems to be filled with info. I wouldn t be too upset. AlaskaGuy has a point. With the almighty internet, there is always a way.. lol
> 
> - Roger


You're welcome Roger.


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## firefighterontheside (Apr 26, 2013)

I wonder if they are still finishing the way they did in 1905.


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## JoeinGa (Nov 26, 2012)

You can find most any recipe any more if you look hard enough. Paint, washes, stains, and food items, it's mostly all out there. We used to go out to eat quite a bit and then come home and try to figure out a food that we liked. But that was before we had the internet so we had to do it the hard way, by making a dish we THOUGHT would be similar and cook it. Then the taste test, and if it was too far off we often tried again. We still use some of those recipes we broke down back in the 80s.

Yep. Most all big companies call their recipes "proprietary", and as a rule you can usually find SOMEONE who has broken it down. In this case you happened to find the originator of the recipe. And you probably had to open a BUNCH of links and/or pages to get that far down to actually find it. Good for you, now you can help your customer keep his piece as "original" as possible.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

You have to consider that you are trying to make a living by this - - they invested time and money and paid people to develop their finishing schedule - they are not going to give it out.

While your motives are pure, they have no idea who you are… maybe you are someone out copying their designs.

Think about your Title for this thread… "How to Stick it to Stickley".... and in the end you decided to publish it to everyone worldwide on lumberjocks - so they can build Stickley copies and match the finish.

Maloof is the only maker I have seen share his finish (but of course he doesn't do much coloration of anything, it is all clear finishes…even at that most people that had his furniture set it back for repairs.

The link you show seems to just describe fuming with ammonia, then "making the color more even" using van ******************** Brown and lamp black…...

There is still a lot of practice boards to get the right color you are shooting for, and the wood really needs to be free of oil and old finish for fuming with ammonia. I am not sure that article is that much of a help.


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## bondogaposis (Dec 18, 2011)

It is my understanding that the Stickley Furniture Company of today evolved from Gustav's brothers factory L and JG Stickley. They may never have used Gustav's formula as Gustav had his own factory. It is highly unlikely that what ever they used in 1905 is still in use today. No company that uses a proprietary formula for their finishes is going to hand it out. For one they may want to market it at some point like Sam Malouf did.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

> It is my understanding that the Stickley Furniture Company of today evolved from Gustav s brothers factory L and JG Stickley. They may never have used Gustav s formula as Gustav had his own factory. It is highly unlikely that what ever they used in 1905 is still in use today. No company that uses a proprietary formula for their finishes is going to hand it out. For one they may want to market it at some point like Sam Malouf did.
> 
> - bondogaposis


Quite right…. I am pretty sure nobody uses banana laquer. Stickley today may even already be doing fuming still, but using waterbase finishes…. and thus have worked out all the coloration tricks to match the oil base furniture colors of old.


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## Yonak (Mar 27, 2014)

> ...now you can help your customer keep his piece as "original" as possible.
> 
> - JoeinGa


..To the benefit of Stickley. That's what makes me scratch my head.


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## Sigung (Nov 20, 2013)

> I wonder if they are still finishing the way they did in 1905.
> 
> - firefighterontheside


 My feeling is probably not exactly, they are probably using modern versions of the older formulas.


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## Sigung (Nov 20, 2013)

> You can find most any recipe any more if you look hard enough. Paint, washes, stains, and food items, it s mostly all out there. We used to go out to eat quite a bit and then come home and try to figure out a food that we liked. But that was before we had the internet so we had to do it the hard way, by making a dish we THOUGHT would be similar and cook it. Then the taste test, and if it was too far off we often tried again. We still use some of those recipes we broke down back in the 80s.
> 
> Yep. Most all big companies call their recipes "proprietary", and as a rule you can usually find SOMEONE who has broken it down. In this case you happened to find the originator of the recipe. And you probably had to open a BUNCH of links and/or pages to get that far down to actually find it. Good for you, now you can help your customer keep his piece as "original" as possible.
> 
> - JoeinGa


I agree completely.


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## Sigung (Nov 20, 2013)

> You have to consider that you are trying to make a living by this - - they invested time and money and paid people to develop their finishing schedule - they are not going to give it out.


Again, if you read the article, there is nothing to invest time and money in, the finishing materials and processes are as common as dirt, furthermore, once Gustav Stickley PUBLISHED the formulation and process, it cannot be proprietary anymore by definition.



> While your motives are pure, they have no idea who you are… maybe you are someone out copying their designs.


Nobody's done that have they… ;-)



> Think about your Title for this thread… "How to Stick it to Stickley".... and in the end you decided to publish it to everyone worldwide on lumberjocks - so they can build Stickley copies and match the finish.


The reason I entitled the post that way, was, again, they LIED about the formula being proprietary, and were completely uncooperative with someone who is working to preserve the legacy of their company. Back where I come from, we would call that "cutting off your nose to spite your face."



> The link you show seems to just describe fuming with ammonia, then "making the color more even" using van ******************** Brown and lamp black…...


It describes much more, you have to do more than give a cursory glance at the first couple of sentences and then go on a rant.



> There is still a lot of practice boards to get the right color you are shooting for, and the wood really needs to be free of oil and old finish for fuming with ammonia. I am not sure that article is that much of a help.
> - DrDirt


It was most helpful to me because I read it all, and got the gist of what direction to move in. That was all I was asking for from Stickley in the first place, a little guidance so I could refinish this antique without destroying its intrinsic value.


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## Sigung (Nov 20, 2013)

> ...now you can help your customer keep his piece as "original" as possible.
> 
> - JoeinGa
> 
> ...


It's just me trying to do a good job for my customer. I did a lot of research on refinishing antique furniture before I agreed to do this. The general consensus of the experts is that refinishing antique furniture does not destroy the antique value and actually helps it, but only if the refinishing job remains true to the original finish.


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## daddywoofdawg (Feb 1, 2014)

Wasn't the oak gassed way back?


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## Luddite (Jan 4, 2015)

Jerry

I admire your persistence. 
Great story thread you've got going.

Terry


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## Sigung (Nov 20, 2013)

> Wasn t the oak gassed way back?
> 
> - daddywoofdawg


Yes, they fumed it, and any Chestnut in an ammonia tank.


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## Sigung (Nov 20, 2013)

> Jerry
> 
> I admire your persistence.
> Great story thread you ve got going.
> ...


Thanks Terry, looks like I hit a nerve


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## Ghidrah (Jan 20, 2015)

I agree with you too Jerry. Also it isn't like the big company didn't know about the published article, and still decided to go dark with the "OLD INFO" What are the odds the formula and materials haven't been altered since the article was published in 1905! Dimes to dollars it doesn't resemble the original product.

As others pointed out the Co you likely contacted was from a separate part of the family/entity and likely has no reason to withhold the info on a competitor product. They were 10 gallon ass hats in 5 gallon hats.


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## Daruc (Apr 20, 2015)

> Thanks Terry, looks like I hit a nerve
> 
> - Jerry


It's shows quite a lack of character to block people just because they disagree with you!
(You can ax me with the others if you want )


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## RichardHillius (Oct 19, 2013)

I wonder if Jerry offered some of the profit of the refinishing job to Stickly to offset the cost of doing the research to give him the formula? They are not a library after all and probably would have had to spend considerable effort finding this information if they have it at all.

While their excuse for why they didn't give you the information is a little lame I admit given the age of the finish I'm not sure refusing to do the research for you for free was a unreasonable thing.


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## Ripthorn (Mar 24, 2010)

Formulations change over time and there is nothing to say that what they currently use isn't proprietary. Anyone can claim anything, even if it is super common, as proprietary, they just might not have the legal grounds on which to pursue any kind of action if someone "infringes". Think McDonald's secret sauce, which is just a salad dressing. Doesn't mean they have to tell you that if you ask. I do think it would have been nice of them, but I can understand where they are coming from.


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## Sigung (Nov 20, 2013)

> I wonder if Jerry offered some of the profit of the refinishing job to Stickly to offset the cost of doing the research to give him the formula? They are not a library after all and probably would have had to spend considerable effort finding this information if they have it at all.
> 
> While their excuse for why they didn t give you the information is a little lame I admit given the age of the finish I m not sure refusing to do the research for you for free was a unreasonable thing.
> 
> - Richard H


Took me less than 10 seconds to find it.


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## Sigung (Nov 20, 2013)

> Formulations change over time and there is nothing to say that what they currently use isn t proprietary. Anyone can claim anything, even if it is super common, as proprietary, they just might not have the legal grounds on which to pursue any kind of action if someone "infringes". Think McDonald s secret sauce, which is just a salad dressing. Doesn t mean they have to tell you that if you ask. I do think it would have been nice of them, but I can understand where they are coming from.
> 
> - Ripthorn


Again, I think the thing that keeps getting missed here is that I never asked them for their formula, I simply asked them for some general information and could they please just steer me in the right general direction. This is what I have an issue with, the generally dismissive and uncooperative attitude that they displayed when I was just asking for a nudge in the right direction.


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## Sigung (Nov 20, 2013)

> It s shows quite a lack of character to block people just because they disagree with you!
> (You can ax me with the others if you want )
> 
> - woodust


Let's see zero projects, zero blog posts, zero reviews, zero forum topics, zero favorites, zero buddies. 33 posts in 25 days

Can you say forum backlink spammer?

I once had an African - American man angrily demand that I give him a cigarette. Apparently he'd not taken the time to think that I might not be a smoker, which I am not. When I replied, "Sorry, I don't have any.", he loudly accused me of being a racist. I pointed out that I am far from being a racist, but I am very much an "jerkist" and very much dislike jerks regardless of race, color, creed, or gender.

I think you have made that same mistake, I don't block people because they disagree with me, I block them when they are jerks about it, when they have not taken the time to read and understand the entire post and the intent of it, when they've not looked at the provided links and information, and simply react to the first couple of words they see because they've already formed their opinion without researching and reading all the information, and then comes the uninformed, unresearched, reactive attack.

...And then there are the forum backlink spammers. People who are employed by internet marketing companies that are trying to spam forums specific to different industries in order to generate backlinks to the websites of customers who have hired them.

Sooo… I'm just cleaning up the gene pool, and your request has been granted.


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## Ghidrah (Jan 20, 2015)

Being an asshole is still no reason to block, vulgar and crude yeah. Let the character of the author's post speak for itself, there were enough members agreeing/sympathizing with you to make up for the critique yeah. 
Be the big Jerry.


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

Im guessing the person either couldn't answer the question or didn't want to deal with you and simply gave you a canned answer to get you to go away.


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## Sigung (Nov 20, 2013)

> Being an asshole is still no reason to block, vulgar and crude yeah. Let the character of the author s post speak for itself, there were enough members agreeing/sympathizing with you to make up for the critique yeah.
> Be the big Jerry.
> 
> - Ghidrah


You know, I really like your response, you have enlightened me. Thank you. In point of fact I have now unblocked everyone on my block list. Have at it me boys, just make sure you are not unarmed when you engage me in a battle of wits….


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## Sigung (Nov 20, 2013)

> Im guessing the person either couldn t answer the question or didn t want to deal with you and simply gave you a canned answer to get you to go away.
> 
> - patcollins


But they came to me, how do I go away from that?


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

> Im guessing the person either couldn t answer the question or didn t want to deal with you and simply gave you a canned answer to get you to go away.
> 
> - patcollins
> 
> ...


Guess Im missing something here, how did they come to you?


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## pintodeluxe (Sep 12, 2010)

Try homestead finishing.com. Jeff Jewitt has some nice formulas. I the think you will be happier with a stain over dye finish, as fuming can be problematic. Stickley will send you sample boards, and you can match it from there.


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## Purrmaster (Sep 1, 2012)

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Jerry basically asking them for product/technical support?


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## Sigung (Nov 20, 2013)

> Guess Im missing something here, how did they come to you?
> 
> - patcollins


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Jerry, you blocked Alaskaguy? Why? He seemed pretty civil…no?


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## ChefHDAN (Aug 7, 2010)

LLOL ~ Legitimately Laughed Out Loud `

"Not racist, ,, Jerkist!..."


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## Gene01 (Jan 5, 2009)

Yep. Funny. 
Great philosophy, too.


> LLOL ~ Legitimately Laughed Out Loud `
> 
> "Not racist, ,, Jerkist!..."
> 
> - ChefHDAN


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## Ghidrah (Jan 20, 2015)

I agree with Purrmaster, asking for help with an aged and likely cherished piece of furniture worked on and or created by said Co founder/cofounder decades earlier. Seems to highlight the dichotomy between the intent of the creative artistry of the originator and what today's corporate structure has done with the legacy.

Were Jerry a "somebody" they might have treated the situation differently. Speculation aside, I read but a few pages of the article, seemed more like a philosophy of woodworking, but if the later pages gave him the answers he needed to do justice to the project, I say screw-em. I'd go as far as to send them the article and offer thanks to the originator's foresight.


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## Sigung (Nov 20, 2013)

> LLOL ~ Legitimately Laughed Out Loud `
> 
> "Not racist, ,, Jerkist!..."
> 
> - ChefHDAN


Thanks amigo.


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## Sigung (Nov 20, 2013)

> Yep. Funny.
> Great philosophy, too.
> 
> LLOL ~ Legitimately Laughed Out Loud `
> ...


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## Sigung (Nov 20, 2013)

> I agree with Purrmaster, asking for help with an aged and likely cherished piece of furniture worked on and or created by said Co founder/cofounder decades earlier. Seems to highlight the dichotomy between the intent of the creative artistry of the originator and what today s corporate structure has done with the legacy.
> 
> Were Jerry a "somebody" they might have treated the situation differently. Speculation aside, I read but a few pages of the article, seemed more like a philosophy of woodworking, but if the later pages gave him the answers he needed to do justice to the project, I say screw-em. I d go as far as to send them the article and offer thanks to the originator s foresight.
> 
> - Ghidrah


I really did consider doing that, but I thought they might go after Wisconsin University and sue them for their "proprietary" information. Better to let sleeping dogs lie…


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## Daruc (Apr 20, 2015)

I would just sue them. 
Be sure to add in the time it took you to find the formula (all of 10 seconds)

Seems like you should have just done your homework first and we wouldn't be having this conversation. 
People want everything handed to them these days, and then spend more effort complaining about it then if they did it themselves.


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## Sigung (Nov 20, 2013)

> Seems like you should have just done your homework first and we wouldn t be having this conversation.
> People want everything handed to them these days, and then spend more effort complaining about it then if they did it themselves.
> - woodust


I was doing my homework, it started with them, the source. which is the obvious choice for any thinking person.

As you can see from the results, I was fully prepared to continue research if they were not of any help, and I ultimately found my answer, as I always do. I simply proceeded from a logical starting point and continued from there.

Personally, I've never had anything handed to me and don't expect to. I've worked hard for all the things I have and all the skills I've acquired.

You, on the other hand, seem to be putting a fair amount of effort into complaining about me.

How's that working out for you?

Like the man said, it's best not to get into a battle of wits unarmed…


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## Purrmaster (Sep 1, 2012)

I guess my point is that if he were asking for technical support (how do I use/repair your products?) that seems like a pretty standard question. And one they'd be willing to answer.

If he was asking for the whole process/recipe (How exactly do you make your products?) I can see them being reluctant to disclose that. I would assume any patent they might have had on their product lapsed a long time ago and secrecy is the only protection they (think) they have.

I suspect they had no idea there was a public domain document with detailed information about their process/recipe. If it's in the public domain perhaps they should just post it on their website.

P.S. What is banana liquid anyways? Would anyone be willing re-write the article with more modern terminology and materials references?


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

This thread is a lot longer than it need be. End it now or I swear I'll… Jerry, forgive Alaskaguy. Alaskaguy, forgive Jerry. Maybe we can now go back to "what table saw should I buy?".


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> This thread is a lot longer than it need be. End it now or I swear I ll… Jerry, forgive Alaskaguy. Alaskaguy, forgive Jerry. Maybe we can now go back to "what table saw should I buy?".
> 
> - DKV


Ok DVK, I forgive Jerry for blocking me for no other reason than I have a different view point/opinion.


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Ok Jerry, your turn…


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Ok Jerry, your turn…


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Ok Jerry, your turn…


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## Sigung (Nov 20, 2013)

> Do you really think companies should hand out proprietary information to any Tom, Dick, and Harry that wants to know their formulation and process they developed on their time and money?
> - AlaskaGuy


And I forgive Alaskaguy for not reading completely and not understanding the true nature of the question I asked, which, repeated here for the umpteenth time, was simply a request for some guidance and NOT a request for their formula, and then being a jerk about the wording in his reply, which could have simply ended with "I don't think Stickley did anything wrong or unethical ."

Hitting the unwatch button now, going out to the shop. I've got better things to do with my time, but please feel free, those of you who are so inclined, to continue flagellating me in my absence.


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

This just warms the heart.


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## Daruc (Apr 20, 2015)

> Seems like you should have just done your homework first and we wouldn t be having this conversation.
> People want everything handed to them these days, and then spend more effort complaining about it then if they did it themselves.
> - woodust
> 
> ...


It's working out pretty good. So far you have been easy to manipulate. Like a puppet! 
Don't worry, it's not taking much ammunition for this battle.


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## Sigung (Nov 20, 2013)

> It s working out pretty good. So far you have been easy to manipulate. Like a puppet!
> Don t worry, it s not taking much ammunition for this battle.
> 
> - woodust


Yeah mastermind, I'm sure that was your intention from the very beginning.


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## Sigung (Nov 20, 2013)

You know what guys, this thread is poison, and I do sincerely apologize to everyone here for my participation in any negative words, situations, etc.

Furthermore, it really does not serve the L J community in any useful way, so for that reason, I'm going to request that the moderators remove it.

To my supporters, I thank you, to my detractors, you have my sincerest of apologies.


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## distrbd (Sep 14, 2011)




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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Good one distrbd…


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## gfadvm (Jan 13, 2011)

Good one Ken!


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

I hope they don't argue over who is the lion and who is the zebra…


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## Daruc (Apr 20, 2015)

Disclaimer:
All the actors and actresses names have been changed to protect the innocent. 
Any resemblance is purely coincidental.


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## Ghidrah (Jan 20, 2015)

Hugs and kisses


















all around!


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)




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## upinflames (Jun 24, 2012)

Well crap, just got the popcorn done and was ready for the show and now everyone is swapping slobbers…....


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## Purrmaster (Sep 1, 2012)

I still don't know what the hell "banana liquid" is. Or German lacquer.


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## Sigung (Nov 20, 2013)

> I still don t know what the hell "banana liquid" is. Or German lacquer.
> 
> - Purrmaster


Banana lacquer was an early version of nitrocellulose lacquer, thinned with amyl acetate that gave it it's distinctive odor


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

"Furthermore, it really does not serve the L J community in any useful way, so for that reason, I'm going to request that the moderators remove it."

This thread his history. You know what they say about history. 
Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it"


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## Sigung (Nov 20, 2013)

> This thread his history. You know what they say about history.
> Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it"
> 
> - AlaskaGuy


How profound


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## QuinLeach (Mar 28, 2011)

The original link died, I think this is what it was originally pointing at?
https://search.library.wisc.edu/digital/ANKFLY4CTR4RQN8K/pages/AQ5FNWDQF5G3JL9A
When this link dies, the source article is:
The Craftsman Vol. IX, Number 1 October 1905 starting on page 123


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## Peteybadboy (Jan 23, 2013)

In the words of Ron Burgundy…

"That escalated quickly"

Jerry thanks for the info on the Stickley finish.


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## therealSteveN (Oct 29, 2016)

> I don t think Stickley did anything wrong or unethical . Do you really think companies should hand out proprietary information to any Tom, Dick, and Harry that wants to know their formulation and process they developed on their time and money?
> 
> Every try to get a famous chef to give up their secret recipe?
> 
> AlaskaGuy


When he was still alive Anthony Bourdain was known to personally write down recipes people asked him about. My Sister met him twice, and each time got a recipe. I have heard Bobby Flay frequently does the same.


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