# What to expect from a cabinet makers career.



## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

I found these local wage brackets today and it puts the trade into a dollars a sense perspective.
Many woodworkers complain that they can't make a living with their own shops and I am beginning to understand that it may not be a function of their woodworking abilities or their training or the decline in the need for custom work but more a factor of not having the necessary business skills to manage a business.

Believe me when I say that *this* is tougher than cabinetry any day of the week.

Roman spoke of cabinet shops disappearing from the yellow pages in about 3 year cycle.
I wonder how many of those fellows had the time or resources to take a course on business or design or marketing?

I'm not knocking anybody here- just saying it's tougher today than ever before.
So if you think you can be a master cabinet maker/designer/advertiser/bookkeeper/project /tax consultant manager/daddy/husband. then a cabinet shop is definitely for you.
Today the best way to make have a million dollars in the cabinet shop business is to start with 2 million.

Still , as a trade, you can make $45,600 a year here in a larger shop or if you can endure hardship at all you can make double to triple that in Ft, McMurray. ( The Tar sands project)
Bob


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## Tikka (May 14, 2007)

INTERESTING, The figure are a lot lower than I would have expected.

I agree with you Bob, if you want to make a million, then do not choose cabinet making, but go into Engineering or computers (seen it, done it and got the "T-Shirt to prove it), but if you want job satisfaction then this is the place to stay (for me).

Thanks for the information - busy with my Computer hat on today - rebuilding my web site from scratch (Martin you have my sympathies)


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## RyanShervill (Dec 18, 2007)

One thing to consider with those numbers though, being as they are referenciing Canadians: Income Tax.
If you are a registered business, there are substantial tax savings as well. even "lower" income #'s by a busineess owner can equal quite a bit more in your pocket than say, someone drawing a wage in a 35-40% tax bracket.

Just adding a different perspective 

Ryan


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## North40 (Oct 17, 2007)

Bob - this chart is for an employee working as a cabinetmaker, right? Not an independant/owner?

You are right on the money (pun intended) about why many businesses fail in the first two or three years - not just woodworking businesses. You can be the best (insert the name of any profession here) around, but if you can't run a business, you're better off working for someone who can.

And Tony, you have my sympathy - I procrastinate on website updates for months! The thought of a complete rebuild makes my skin crawl!


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## Woodchuck1957 (Feb 4, 2008)

I think you guys are fooling yourselves, I don't know whats going on in Canada, but I know whats going on in the USA, Ethan Allen is gone, and Lane furniture company is gone, etc. theres two big ones there. Then if you know anything about houseing, interior doors are from Malaysia and the veneer is so thin you can barely sand it without going threw it. Raised panel doors have MDF veneered raised panels in them, painted trim is MDF with a paper coating over it. Premade cabinets are comeing from lumber yards and big box stores. While this may not be going on in all homes, it is going in most medium priced homes and it takes away from the American woodworking market one way or another. I don't think you can call all of it mismanagement in the cabinet shops. Your lucky if you can make $10 an hour starting out here in ND working in someone elses established cabinet shop.


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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

Woodchuck, I presented the facts as they are written.
They were not about "Manufacturing" as you were quick to discuss, but aimed at the cabinet trade and it's current employment here. 
There is a tendency to believe that this is a U.S. site and that what takes place in the U.S. is the norm where in fact this is probably one of the most cosmopolitan sites on the INTERNET with members from all parts of the globe. 
What occurs in North Dakota has less significance here than it might over at WoodCentral or Sawmill Creek. Having said that,we do have many things in common as far as woodworking is concerned.

I wont speculate as to why the American manufacturing sector is taking a beating but a betting man would put his money on the fact the US laws have allowed it's corporations to move the manufacturing overseas and keep the profits off shore. *(There is no tariff to keep the home based sectors competitive.)*

I think it would be fair to say that you don't know what's going on in the US but you definitely can see the results.
Of all the country's in the world I can honestly say that the US has a love affair with the cheapest price and the maximum return on investment.

Canada, by the way is not far behind.

So you can lament the poor quality and short half life of construction products all you want but in reality you are the people buying them so it must suit your goals in life.

"Pity the man who know the price of everything and the value of nothing."

Bob


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## DaveHerron (Jan 21, 2008)

If you own a cabinet shop and you are the only employee and it is your only source of income, I'm guessing you will fail in the 1 to 3 year range (I've heard the 90% of all business startups fail). The problem is that if you are doing the work, you don't have time to do marketing. If you are not marketing, where's the next job coming from? What usually happens is that you get an order and you work on it. When you complete the project, you go looking for more work. That leave you too much down time to survive. You bid your work at $40/hr and it always takes 50% more time. So now your making $30/hr on the project. Then you have 2 weeks of down time because you didn't have anything lined up when you completed the last project so your effective hourly rate is maybe $10/hr. How can you survive? Maybe we just do woodworking as a hobby or side business because it's fun. I can buy a lot of tools with the $50/hr I get paid for writing software.


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## Woodchuck1957 (Feb 4, 2008)

Whatever Bob, I don't know why I bother with some of you.


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## SST (Nov 30, 2006)

Bob, you raise a great point about business skills vs trade skills. I'd be willing to bet that, other than under capitalization, the biggest reason for a small business failure is when someone takes a skill and/or passion and wants to follow the American dream of turning into a business without understanding that turning out a beautiful and self satisfying product, in and of itself, won't put bread on the table.

Like it or not, you need the numbers. You need a realistic business plan based on fact, not based on dreams, passion and the love of doing your thing…whatever that thing is… cabinet making, T-shirt design, or whatever.
Oh sure, there's always someone who comes up with something that's much bigger than they ever thought (Google, for example), and then they're stuck trying to run fast enough to keep up, but I don't think any woodworking related businesses will fall into that category.

I know there must be jocks, here, who have thought about starting their own business. I even think about it on those days when the real bread winning gets frustrating. But then I remember the numbers…yuk, the numbers.

Then I remember something else that happened to me a long time ago when, as a young struggling newlywed with a love of photography and some pretty good skills. I started doing wedding & family photography as a side business, and discovered that my love of photography as a skill/hobby was dulled as I began to think of it in a business sense instead of as a hobby/fun. I think it's possible that when you add the business stress to your skill, at least for me, this kind of thing can happen.

Since I'd hate for that to occur in woodworking, I've always resisted trying it as a business. (Also, on a realistic note, I'm probably not in the same league as some of the folks here could legitimately do this, but one can always dream, right?)
-SST


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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

Peter O asked:
"Bob - this chart is for an employee working as a cabinetmaker, right? Not an independant/owner"

As far a I know this would be a Govt. survey either conducted randomly or extrapolated from UI (Unemployment ) insurance figures.
They are probably accurate +- 10% for most of Canada.

It's difficult to get figures from independents as they work a lot more hours and probably more productively than the wage earners. (At least those that survive do.)

Bob


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## Tikka (May 14, 2007)

I think that one of the problems with small shops, mine included is marketing - There are only so many hours in the day,and you have to share that amongst a lot of skills you must have to run your own business, other than banging big nails into a piece of wood, also you must have some time for family life. Luckily the internet is out there and this can help severely with the marketing of you and your product/s.

I do not make a fortune, but I pay my bills every month and manage to save a little. If I underestimate the hours on a job, or have to remake an item, then it is my fault, nobody else's. If I have no customers for a while, again my fault for not marketing or perusing potential customers enough. So long as at the end of the month, the money is in the bank what does it really matter. I enjoy my work immensely, I am sometime frustrated at people buying from big box stores, when I can provide a similar product for a similar price, but hopefully a higher quality, but at the end of the day I would never go back to my Engineering lifestyle - the money was fantastic, travelled a lot to exotic places and never saw my family.

Maybe we are all too hung up on money these days, why do the billionaires need billions more? Why to the petrol/Benzine companies have to make $10,000's/second.

Sorry LJs, I am rambling on and on. Life is what it is, and we can do little individually or collectively to change it. Money is Power and power is money, so we just have to make the best of our lives, adapt the best we can to the environment that we are in and be more sociable to fellow man


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## tenontim (Feb 24, 2008)

Here's my two cents: Most of the people buying furniture don't really know the difference between "big box furniture" and hand made. The first thing they look at is the price. The public has to be educated as to the benefits between having something "thrown together" or a quality piece of furniture. The problem we have here in Texas is, the place is flooded with furniture from Mexico. A person can buy a whole room of furniture for the cost of one piece of custom built. After it starts falling apart,they toss it and buy more in a slightly different style.
I think the one item in your business management has to be lots of advertising and getting out to furniture shows to educate the masses. I've increased my advertising budget the past two years and the business increase has been way more than that cost. Your clients will advertise for you also, but it's a lot slower. Statistics are, if you do a good job for someone, they will tell 4 people. If you do a lousy job they will tell 10. So keep the quality and customer satisfaction as you main priority.


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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

Woodchuck said:
"Whatever Bob, I don't know why I bother with some of you."

*We are trying to tell you the very same thing.*
Bob


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## GaryK (Jun 25, 2007)

Bob #2

I don't think he can go away.

I find that he is an endless source of amusement. You can't really take anything he says seriously, but
for amusement purposes he's great!

So please don't go away Woodchuck1957, I could always use a good laugh.


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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

Gary, No one is completely useless.
He can always serve as a bad example.

Cheers
Bob


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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

If we can see what the problem is why don't we put our heads together and try to fix it.
I'm not happy criticising things unless I can offer constructive criticism.
Hell , we got a man on the moon, surely cleaning up our economy and reducing the red tape and bureacracies is not insurmountable.
It's time to get back to basics.

I have a freind of mine that writes millions of dollars in cabinet business each year. 
His work is all custom and is built by a team of 38 people of which 15-18 are cabinetmakers, the rest are sales, CAD engineers or operators.
Everything is designed by CAD and translated to cutting machines on the floor. The delicate hand finishing work is done by experienced cabinet makers .
They do their installations around North America and do not necessarily depend on the local market.
He mainly does bars, restuarants and casinos but you can see his work in schools and museums as well.

Bob


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## LesHastings (Jan 26, 2008)

Woodchuck< we might have an opening for a builder,,,,,,,iffin you have the abilities needed to do the job!


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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

SST
I finally got a chance to readthis fast moving thread top to bottom and I wanted to thank you for your insight and putting together an undrstandable profile of what many folks think they might be happierr with.

*Short answer" I could do that"... long answer… "It's tougher than it looks"*
Cheers
Bob


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## Woodchuck1957 (Feb 4, 2008)

Les, with the price of gas, I doubt the commute would be worth it, but thanks anyway.


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## Rich_S (Oct 26, 2007)

I can tell you a little bit about what happened to one of our larger furniture makers here in Wisconsin which came from an article in one of the business publications I receive. Richardson Brothers furniture was a fairly large manufacturer of dining room sets and casegoods near Sheboygan Falls, Wisconsin. They employed roughly 200-240 people and were in business for over 158 years. (it was Wisconsin's oldest business) According to quotes from the owner the downfall of Richardson was due to their inability to compete with the prices of imports from China and Canada. He stated that Richardson's cost to manufacture a soild wood dining set was what the retail cost of a similar looking solid wood set was that had been imported from China. (35-40% less) He stated that the bulk of US consumers were unaware of quality differences and even those that were aware were reluctant to pay for the difference since the Chinese imports were "very good". He went on to say that the simiilar solid wood Canadian imports had roughly a 30% price advantage due to health insurance costs. "We had always positioned ourselves as a solid-wood resource, and as this category of furniture continued to shrink in importance, we were faced with the decision to either follow the current trend to repeatedly lower our prices - which would ultimately force us to leave the solid-wood arena - or to exit the market with our legacy intact." So Richardson closed the plant and laid off everyone which he said was very hard to do since Sheyboygan Falls is a small community and he had a hard time facing his former employees when he went to the gas station, or grocery store, etc. Richardson has started back up again but are going a different direction. In particular they have went into the business of making yacht furnishings and hired back 24 employees. The reason he gave for going into yacht furnishings was due to the fact that the majority of the competition for this type of work is with Italian companies and he felt that they had a better chance. He also stated that the work is "China proof" in that it involves individualized production instead of mass production. Richardson is now back to 60 employees and up to 50,000 sq. ft of their original 300,000 sq. ft. building.


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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

Rich, I tried to say this earlier in this thread but without the anecdotal evidence you have provided.

*"Of all the country's in the world I can honestly say that the US has a love affair with the cheapest price and the maximum return on investment.

Canada, by the way is not far behind*"

Thanks

Bob


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## Rich_S (Oct 26, 2007)

Right on Bob…here's another piece of info..these are the 6 month graduate follow-up salary reports for students from our Cabinetmaking and Millwork program at the local technical college. Last year there were 9 graduates, 8 were employed, 6 of which were employed in a related occupation and 2 of which were employed in an unrelated occupation. For those employed in the cabinetmaking field the average salary was $2100 per month with a range of $1500 to $2600 per month (these are employees not owners). Average weekly hours were 41. They don't track anything on benefits.


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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

Rich:

There are a few times in a man's life when he wishes he was wrong.
This is one of them.

Cheers
Bob


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## Woodchuck1957 (Feb 4, 2008)

$1500 a month equates to about $7.50 an hour which is probably what most are makeing. $2100 a month equates to about $10 an hour, thats nothing to write home about. Especially when your breathing sawdust, working around dangerous machinery, standing on concrete, and listening to noise all day. You'd be hard pressed to get anyone reliable, or that knew anything at those wages. I'm not sure who I'd feel more sorry for, the workers or the plant foreman thats makeing $2600 at about 12.50 an hour. Sounds like McDonalds wages to me. Godda luv the extra message of ( these are employees not owners ) I'm sure it's not.


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## Pretzel (Feb 23, 2008)

custom woodwork is just that, I don't quibble about price, if a customer wants a lower price, I usually add a nuisance fee equal to what I would normally charge. Otherwise I will send them down the road, I worked to hard to learn this trade to give it away.


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## cowboy (Jan 12, 2008)

Having made a living building furniture for over 30 yrs now it is always interesting to me to hear the many ways people go about it and the trials we all go through.
Young people frequently contact me and ask how do they get to the point where they can make a living at

this.I usually joke what do you call a living?
The truth for me has been to find my "niche" in the business and stick with it.I hear so many people spending so much time on marketing and I really don't understand that at all.How can you market this type of work.Kitchen cabinets yes but not furniture.I tried for years and about straved to death.
What did I do,several things,first off I took some reallly good advice and quit building anything like anyone else.How can you be so hopeful that "you" will build a piece of Shaker,Arts &Crafts,Greene & Greene or whatever style you chose to copy so well and so much better than so many others who are doing it very well that someone will ask you to do it.Instead I started to only build my designs and things got a little better as they couldn't go elsewhere.Then I started to go to shows but only shows in very wealthy areas,usually resort areas where the local people were second home people with a lot of money.Things got better then but only for orders as they wanted it made for them sometimes changing almost nothing so while orders were good cash sales were still poor.Then finally I sold a piece that I had spent a fortune on the wood,it was eye candy,the kind we wood workers drool over.Yeah it cost 4 or 5 more times more money for the wood.Well I may be a slow learner but not totally stupid all of the time,so I started making each and every piece a work of art not just in quality but dazzling in the wood used so dazzling that they "have to have" that very one.Truthfully no one can assure someone they can get another one just like that anyhow.Then everything changed big time,it made so much difference so fast it doesn't even seem real to me still.
When I made this choice I was very unsure of my designs and now I truly believe right or wrong that together with the wood I use is the difference.
I still go to about 6 -8 shows a year,I don't seem to be able to get out of that but I have made peace with that and have learned to enjoy it.But I don't worry about how a show is ranked as much as who lives nearby,so I want it to be in the Hamptons,Aspen,Vail,Couer'Lane,Jackson Hole somewhere the wealthy frequent on their free time.Here's another little fact.Most people falsely believe that most wealthy people work very little when almost all of them I have dealt with work monsterous hrs. so when they are at the second home they are relaxed,at ease and far more likely to place an order or buy something they see that they would never see at their main home place.
Anyway that is just my experience and I am sure everyone has their own.All I can say is I never do cabinets,repair work, only may own designs and no longer make starvation wages.I don't believe it is an accident nor do I dream that my designs are so much better than everyone elses,the quality is good by anyone's standards,not like anyone else's and the wood is ALWAYS,ALWAYS very special and that is a really key element.At least that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Cowboy


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## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

I look at those wages and think they haven't changed in ten years…I liked what Bob#2 said. What can we do to change it? I got off the farm the other day and ended up outside of Boise Idaho and the thing that struck me was just how few independent stores still existed. Everything was a chain store…everything. I think it is more than just having to be a good business person. I wish I knew the answer, but I've been doing this for over ten years and I don't have a clue. All I know is work is drying up and prices are rising. I actually think government "job" promotions are part of the problem, just more welfare for the big guys. In the name of the "economic growth" the big guys get the bananas and the little ones get the peals.


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## BigTim (Jan 17, 2008)

I says alot about our society that someone who writes computer code that you KNOW is going to be obsolete in 6 months(or less) is paid 10 times what a skilled woodworker makes to build you something that will last several lifetimes. 
It's all about who can aquire the most goodies, but only what is "hot" right now, People have been trained to only want the "newest" things & be ready to dump them when the trend fades & grab the next. And EVERYBODY (us included) is looking to get "it" for the lowest price. 
The market has got to be in the .01% range for customers who are looking for High quality items that will stand the test of time. It's hard to locate those few willing to pay for that quality. Unless you are very lucky or well connected it is a constant struggle to fine the time and energy (and $'s) to figure out a winning marketing stratagy in woodworking. 
It"s a tough way to make a living. But I love it anyway!

just my $.02


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

What isnt written in those stats, and yes I know that the stats are for employees, not employers

the employer matching the CPP payment
the employer paying 1.4 the amount of UIC
the employer paying for medicare (OHIP)
the employer paying 4 % vacation pay
the employer paying up to and or exceed 10% for WCIB

Something I should mention. You struggle to get to the top where the clientelle care little about price. You build millions of dollars in woodworking projects. You can build project after project that is flawless in design and execution but in the end, you are only as good as the last job you do,.............so should you screw up the last project, thats all people will remember.

Years ago I built a stage. Complicated in design and installation. When I won the tender I was both pleased and worried like "I won, what did I miss?" Upon studying the design I was delighted to figure out that the stage was merely (or could be built) in a series of simple boxes stacked upon each other. Cost of material…..less then 400, labour, 400, installation 2 hours (three guys).................fee = $6,500, done in one day.

If that happened every week….........so happy, only happens every ten years or so.

Personally….............I wont shop at Wal-Mart and I drive American made cars and trucks.


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## Woodchuck1957 (Feb 4, 2008)

Well I see the bull******************** never ends in this place, It looks like someone is posting stuff with my name and logo. If you notice the one in 1957 is a I in the fake post. Someone also sent me a virus in my e:mail this morning. Who ever it is really needs to growup. What a spineless loser. I've got a good idea who it is after reading the properties of the e:mail.


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## DannyBoy (Oct 26, 2007)

Yeah… That's not cool. The fake Woodchuck should be chucked…

I think that I am going to keep myself in the part time area of woodworking for quite a while. It is still a hobby and I have more to learn than I can imagine. On top of that, the work I do I don't do for any financial gain. If I am lucky enough to get a commission or job, it is usually to a friend or family member and not a big job. So, I put everything I can into it and do my best. With time, maybe I'll make more friends this way.

On top of that (not to run this post past its point), the technology of woodworking is getting more and more manufactured. Consider the difference between a nice custom built chest of drawers built today as to one built in the 1930s, or even a century ago. We went from classic hand tools to lithium-ion powered replicators (for you Star Trek NG fans). I know the work is longer with hand tools. But I get so much more out of it and my results are so much better. Again, I'm ranting out of turn on that, but its how I really feel about the direction of our craft in relation to the direction of our craft's economic outlook.

~DB


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## LesHastings (Jan 26, 2008)

I keep coming back to this page and reading about how good or poorly others have in the woodworking business and I guess from the sound of things, I've got it pretty good. Yea we have our slow times once in while like every body else does. But the last three years or so we have been amazingly busy. Right now in our shop there are 4 builders including myself, we usually try to have five. That fifth guy is getting really hard to find these days. All our builders make a very descent wage. All of our work is by word of mouth, we don't advertise any where. Don't even have a web site. We make things for people from end of the country to the other. Its all custom stuff that either a designer or archietect designs or our in house designer. We make furniture pieces in the five figure range all the time, kitchens that are in the six figure range. Last year with five builders we easily did seven figures. (yea we worked our buts off) So I guess I should stop complaining and enjoy the ride. To be honest I've been wishing for a little bit of a slow down, its been a little slow the last couple of months but now we're getting close to being way behind again. I've figured a couple hundred thousand dollars worth of custom furniture this week, already got oks on some of it, expecting oks on all of it. And I have two more large kitchens coming to figure.

I can't really tell you how to be successful in this business, I just know that its possible if you work hard and provide a quailty product and are honest with your customers.

And that is my .02 cents worth!


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

It's hard to compete with desperate illegal aliens who will do your job for 1/3 the pay!


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## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)

woodworking is like any other artform … hard to make a living as an artist. not impossible.


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## joey (Sep 17, 2007)

I would rather struggle doing something I love and working for myself right now, then work for someone else, not knowing everyday, whether my job was secure, or if we will be down sized, or laid off. I know haveing my own business takes a lot of work, but it can also have a lot rewards, and not every woodworking business fails.

To me money isn't my main concern, if I wanted to make a million dollars I would be a politician stealing from the American people. No for me its about just finding a balance in my life, working at something I have a passion for, and maybe doing something I can teach to others.

I try not to take a negative attitude about business or money, because if I did it would just keep me in a hole, and then I might as well give my tools away, and get a job at McDonald's, that is, before: they move them just off shore, so they can make hamburgers cheaper.

Joey


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