# Do you see Lee Valley and Lie-Nielsen as Low End equipment??



## Patrik (Jul 13, 2011)

Hi fellow woodworkers!

In the latest episode of the whoodwhisperers videocast, Marc is putting the finger on the "boutique-ness trend" that is going on in the handtool segment of woodworking right now.

I think Marc say it alot better than me, so you can see the episode on youtube and jump forward to the time 21.40 where he talks about this trend for a couple minutes.






As marc said, it's ridiculus that LV and LN is seen as low end on this scale.

And aren't we all fooling ourself that our handwriting (handcraft skill) will be soooo much better if we use a pencil made from gold and diamonds, rather than a "ok" plain, normal pencil?

What is you say - Do we fool ourself for what "we really need" ?

Best regards, Patrik


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

I personally cannot afford these tools but I do have a favorable opinion of them. Other than my carving tools, which are mostly Pfiel, most of my tools were either bought right after I got married in 1971 or are used tools which I bought along the way at yard sales, antique stores, or on Ebay. I do have a few that I bought new and I still will buy some new tools here and there. I bought a dovetail saw for instance from Lee Valley.


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## LeeBarker (Aug 6, 2010)

Arnold Palmer wrote a 5 part series on golf in Sports Illustrated in the mid sixties. I hung on every word.

As is sometimes the case, writing about sport can shed light on other areas of life.

In this case, he said something like, "Play eighteen holes with just a seven iron and a putter. You'll be surprised at how close your score is to what you typically shoot with a full bag of clubs."

Kindly,

Lee


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## pierce85 (May 21, 2011)

"But that's how hobbies work…Most people in hobbies do not get by on what they absolutely need. They usually get by on what they can afford."

I agree with Marc, but for some the tools themselves are a large part of the hobby. So they're not just tools qua tools. We could also get by with making all our projects out of cheap pine…

And, I've never thought of Lee Valley or Lie-Nielsen as low end or boutique. I see them as high-end mainstream tools and everything above that is boutique.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

I think to suggest LN and Veritas is "low end" is absurd. It's akin so saying Rolex and Brietling are "low end" because Patek Philippe and Franck Muller are around. Adcom is crap because of Krell and McIntosh. The Mercedes S class is a Volkswagen becasue the Bentley GT exists. There are too many examples.

There will always be boutique items that compete with "high end". Many border on the absurd. To wit, need a bath towel and want to look cool?










http://www.louisvuitton.com/us/flash/index.jsp;jsessionid=30PHC5FZIEA1SCRBXUYVAIAKEG4RAUPU?productId=prod1600011&buy=1&langue=en_US&buy=1&langue=en_US&buy=1&langue=en_US&buy=1&langue=en_US&buy=1&langue=en_US&buy=1&langue=en_US&buy=1&langue=en_US&buy=1&langue=en_US&buy=1&langue=en_US&buy=1&langue=en_US&buy=1&langue=en_US&buy=1&langue=en_US&buy=1&langue=en_US&buy=1&langue=en_US&buy=1&langue=en_US&buy=1&langue=en_US&buy=1&langue=en_US&buy=1&langue=en_US&buy=1&langue=en_US&buy=1&langue=en_US&buy=1&langue=en_US&buy=1&langue=en_US&buy=1

Giant Monogram Beach Towel
This luxurious giant Monogram beach towel comes with its own refined stand in natural leather taking up all the iconic Leather Goods codes of the house. This precious set can be carried in the hand or on the shoulder, for a chic summer attitude at the beach or for a nice yachting spirit. 
- Size: 180×200 cm / 72×80 inches
- 100% cotton
- Stand in natural leather
PRODUCT ID M72896 
Graphite : 
MARRON 
*$1,690.00 *

Or just want to get dry?










http://www.jcpenney.com/jcp/X6.aspx?GrpTyp=STY&ItemID=19c90da&DeptID=82319&CatID=82377&SO=1&Ne=949+5+1031+586+8+18&NOffset=0&N=4294932611+4294949518+4294949519+4294949520+4294949521+4294949522+4294949523+4294949524+4294949525+4294949526+4294949527+4294949528+4294949529+4294949530&Nao=0&PSO=1&bcCat=3&CmCatId=external|82377

*Sale $4.79*

LN's are designed after the venerable Stanleys who a true craftsman should have a hard time scoffing at. Glorious infills are reserved for the realm of the collector and the user with a proven taste for fine tools. Even those can be had for less than $1000 on Fleabay. Would you charge an Iron Chef with a crime for having a $1000 chef's knife, the core of his profession? Probably not.

Ask Philip Marcou, a Lumberjock, a reasonable gentleman, and the producer of fine boutique, heirloom planes if he thinks that Lie Nielsen and Lee Valley are "low end". Ask him how many he has in his own shop. The answer will prove that this argument is moot at best; intentionally incendiary at worst.

I'm no LN lover but if you sense that this accusation offended me, you are correct.


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## pierce85 (May 21, 2011)

Al, I think that's the first time I've ever "seen" you get upset.


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## ksSlim (Jun 27, 2010)

My Granddad pounded into me " its a poor craftsman that blames his tools" , "learn what a tool will do and make it do it". Most cutting tools wil cut, some due to different materials will hold an edge longer.
If one can afford the luxury tools, by all means use them, if not, get proficient with what you can afford.
Many of the more pricey tools of today have returned to the 17th & 18th century idea that utilitarian tools can also have an artistic quality. Some of the best OLD tools are also a joy to look at and use.


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## BillWhite (Jul 23, 2007)

As was said a long time ago (I wish I had said it myself).
"Ain't ain't the arrow. It's the indian." 
Bill


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

I've never heard that before, I certainly don't feel that there low end tools. I guess it's all where you come from and how much money you have to spend on tools. I've seen comments about a $ 5000 Saw Stop being low end compared to European model table saws.


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## mnguy (Feb 4, 2009)

I think 'low end' as a category for hand tools describes a tool that is both inexpensive and that cannot be setup accurately and precisely, and /or cannot be made to maintain that setup. There are many inexpensive tools (and, sadly, some moderately priced and expensive tools) that fall into this definition of 'low end'. I do not own any L-N tools, but own several LV planes, marking tools, etc., and these LV tools do not fall into my definition of low end. I believe a highly skilled craftsman (which I am not) could adjust and sharpen a $200 LV plane or a $1000 boutique plane and work with them all day long and produce beautiful work, while they could not do this with a $25 big box plane. Therefore, the $25 big box plane, while having a place in many wood worker's tool box, is 'low end'.


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## tom427cid (Aug 21, 2011)

Hi all,
Having worked as both a woodworker and a mechanic my attitude about tools is not necessarily "high end" vs "low end". When I started swingin wrenches Snap-on was the best and Sears was not. However if I needed a 1/2" wrench and all there was was a Sears would I stoop so low to use it? Of course I would. I needed to get the job done. To me the difference between the high and low end is the QUALITY of the tool. My bench chisels-those that are used all the time-are such a mish-mash of brands that to consider them a set would be laughable.Well,most of the handles match. What is not laughable is that the sizes of those chisels go from 1/16 to 1 1/2" by 16ths. Over the years I have found chisels that had better steel(edge holding ability) and so I would up-grade that size.Do I need every one? No. Primarily I use 5-6 of them.
When I was doing heavy equipment service my truck was in the shop and I borrowed Charlie's truck. We called him Captain Crude,not from disrespect but from envy.I discovered that while Charlies tools were at first glance pretty lacking,when I needed something special,Wow it was all there to do what I needed. A very valuable lesson to be learned here.We used to say if you dropped Charlie naked in the middle of the Sahara a while later he would drive out in some sort of air-conditioned contraption-but still naked!
While a poor craftsman blames his tools,the real craftsman can take basicly nothing and make it do his bidding.
tom


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## paratrooper34 (Apr 27, 2010)

Great Topic. I have a little experience with this so I will add my two cents as well.

Since I am a hand tool user, I have many. I have a pretty sizable arsenal of handplanes. Only one was purchased new; a LN rabbet block plane. It came sharp and required no tuning to use it other than to set the blade. It is a nice plane for sure. The rest of my planes are older, used Record (most of them anyway) planes. They ALL required some tuning and setup. But I read a lot on the internet and some books and learned how to set them up properly and they all work like they were intended to. I had the opportunity last year to attend a hand tool class with Chris Schwarz at a hand tool distributor's classroom in Germany. This distributor, Dick GMBH had a very fine selection of tools from Japanese, to Veritas, to LN, etc, etc. I got to use them all. I can honestly say that my properly tuned, used, older Records worked just as good as any that I tried that week. I found the high end planes did nothing that mine couldn't do.

I say, if you have the money to buy high end stuff, go for it. You will save some time by skipping the tuning process of an old, used plane. But if you don't have the money, buy the old stuff and learn how to tune them. With some skill, your old used plane will perform just the same as the big dollar high end plane. And quite frankly, I enjoyed tuning my planes.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

I believe if your going to be a craftsman, you'll need to learn what constitute a quality tool. A quality tool is one that will do what you expect it to do. We all do things a little different, so its not going to be the same for all of us. Ancient man made some pretty amazing things with tools a lot less sophisticated than we have today, so its not necessarily just the quality of the tool. its the quality of the craftsman using the tool.

I like fussing with older tools, making them work, I believe it makes me a better woodworker. Not because I'm spending time fixing tools, by tuning the equipment you come to understand how that equipment works and why it works or it doesn't work.

I like listening to the "experts" but I learn an awful lot from the normal weed end hobbyist posting here as well. Being marketable doesn't necessarily make you good, it just makes you marketable. The average consumer wouldn't know quality if it jumped up and bit them in the butt, that goes for the average consumer of tools as well. Watch out for marketing, its just that, marketing.


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## StumpyNubs (Sep 25, 2010)

Those Lie-Nielsen planes are JUNK! That's why I don't have any! But I can tell you this, when I get my first one I'll let you know how it's the greatest tool ever made!

What I wonder is, how did those old timers in the 18th century make such fine furniture without the top of the line, obscenely expensive, must-have-or-else-you're-just-a-low-life-woodworker tools we all know we need today? It's a mystery akin to building the pyramids without iron tools or how mankind lived through the dark ages with little more than dung to eat…


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## maljr1980 (Sep 4, 2011)

as far as the saw stop is concerned, it cost 5000 only because of the safety feature it has. we have 2 saw stops at work, and it is no better than a general or powermatic saw for about 40% of the price. we also have a computerized altendorf sliding table saw and holzman 5 sheet beam saw. i highly recomend the saw stop, especially for the hobbyist if they can afford it, but it still remains a simple cabinet saw when compared to things that cost 20,000- over 100,000


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

I just feel the need to say that I personally stay as far away from brown towels as is humanly possible (regardless of the price). I'm just sayin… ;=)


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## Patrik (Jul 13, 2011)

Gentlemen, before putting my perspective on the question, I would like to put some fuel on the fire, and Quote the famous photographer Ken Rockwell from his provocative but somewhat true "leveling" of photographers. Just exchange the word Photographer for woodworker and images for woodwork project.

Quote:

"Equipment Measurbator: Bottom Level 1 (equivalent to "Hell" in Christian mythology)

These men (and they are all men) have no interest in art or photography because they have no souls. Lacking souls they cannot express imagination or feeling, which is why their images, if they ever bother to make any, suck.

These folks have analysis paralysis and never accomplish anything.

Does poring over a microscope analyzing test images have anything to do with photographing a Joshua tree at dawn? Of course not. Even worse, time wasted concentrating on tests is time not spent learning useful aspects of photography and certainly time that could have been better spent actually photographing. Test just enough to know what your gear can do, and then get on with real photography.

They are interested solely in equipment for its own sake. They will talk your ear off for hours if you let them, but as soon as you ask to see their portfolio their bravado scurries away, or they think you want to see their cameras or stocks."

End quote.

Now, here comes my confession - I might be one of those, finding it intresting reading about equipment, and comparing to other equipment, of wich I have none.

But it dosent matter, as long as it gives me joy and happiness as part in my overall woodwork hobby.

Let's make the comparison between a stamp collecor and a handtool collector.
- The stamp collector never intend to use (post) any of the stamps, but just like to watch them and feel them. In the same way, some powertools and handtool guys gets happy just from owning some rare or expensive equipment, but never really uses them much.

And that's leading to the real question: What makes you happy in your woodworking hobby/profession?

If we all asked us that question: What brings me most work-joy, rather than talking about technicalitie like extra thin shavings vs extra-extra thin shavings, or wich plane sole that is 0.000002" flatter versus another one, we might end up with a different shop-setup. Right?

Is it the woodwork process, creating things, or just to knowing that you have the possibilitie to create things that makes me and you happy?

I beleive woodwork as a hobby is also about dreaming, and justifying/telling yourself "If I only had this new Equipment X, I would produce so much better than today".

An amateur guitar player might seriously claim, and beleive that if he only had that ultra expensive guitar, he actually would be playing better. And justify the cost/sacrifice of buying this expensive guitar, because of his dreams of playing like his guitar-heroes.

The truth is however, a professional guitar player will still "outplay" him by the factor of 10 on any cheap guitar, becase the craftmanship is in the hands, not in the instrument.

And to re-hook to the initial LV-LN question, when so many is running like a bunch of cheeps in the same "boutique"-direction, could one stop for a moment and reflect, Is this really what will bring me most joy/satisfaction to my hobby?

For me, I mix ultra cheap with better tools, but I never buy any tools just because they are expensive. And to quote the same photographer one more time:

Quote2:
"These are the same people who bought the first 2.7 Megapixel digital SLRs designed for newspapers like the Nikon D1 back in 2000 just because they cost $5,000. They gave technically poorer results than the film cameras used by snapshooters. All because it's expensive doesn't make it good.

Bad rich amateurs think fuzzy B/W images of poor people are art."

End Quote2.

And at the risk at offending some, I provoce with the follwoing line:
-Bad rich woodworkers think a pile of woodshavings from some exotic hardwood actually is art. ;-)

A friend is a professional photographer (meaning making full time living from it) and when he get's the question what equipment he uses, he always answears: Whatever the client want me to use.

To translate that to woodwork would be, Does the client want handcut dovetails, or cnc made? Does the client want handplaned surfaces or machine thicknessed?

Maybe the client don't care at all about the process, and just care about the result?

And if you are the client - what bring most joy to you along the road to completing the project?

That is the productive question - that is what we all should be asking a lot more often.
What the core happiness in any woodworking project for you?

I hope I did not offend to many people, just wanted to put another perspective on these questions.

Best regards, Patrik

ps: check this Tutankhamun link, handcraft from more than 3000 (!) years ago. The things they produced back then put me to shame no matter how good equipment I use. But of course, they were really skilled craftsmen, I'm just a hobbyist


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## tom427cid (Aug 21, 2011)

To Patrik
Well said,better than I could. Basicly,it's not the tool but the hand on the tool.
Thanks for your post.
tom


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## Smile_n_Nod (Jan 20, 2011)

It would be interesting to have an experienced craftsman make something (a table, say) with only high end tools and then again with ordinary tools (however one defines "ordinary"). I wonder if most people could tell the difference.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

^lol, Cr1. I use my Holteys as paperweights, having now moved up to something nicer for my woodworking.


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## StumpyNubs (Sep 25, 2010)

Patrik- I have to admit that I saw the word "Measurbator" at the beginning of your long post and decided not to read further…


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## mikema (Apr 27, 2011)

I think we should also keep in mind the context that Marc is the hand tools available at WIA a few weeks ago. I was able to make it to the market place on Friday. In the context of WIA, Marc was absolutely right, Lie-Nielsen and Lee Valley/Veritas were indeed some of the lower priced hand tools available at the show. There was one booth that was selling old beat up hand planes that minimally needed cleanup that were priced in the same area as Lee Valley. Woodcraft was there with a large booth, and many of the Woodriver hand tools were available there as well. But, when you start walking through the market place and see tool companies such as Bad Axe, Daed, and a few others, their prices very quickly exceed the most expensive offerings of Lie-Nielsen, Lee Valley/Veritas, and Woodriver.

Personally, I have a few high end tools. I have one Lie-Nielsen plane, and a couple of their blades in old Stanley planes. I also have pfeil chisels, which have proven to be a great investments. The rest of the handtools I have are old/restored tools, new mid-range tools, or I have made them myself.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

I think the best exercise is to find a guy who makes something exquisite, then examine his tools. Works every time. Look at Philip Marcou's shop. He could have…well…PHILIP FREAKING MARCOU planes everywhere! But he has the same blend as the rest of us for his daily work. It's nothing new. There will always be insanely priced examples of rather commonplace items. It doesn't offend me and most importantly, it doesn't detract from the value of the more inexpensive ones. Is a beatiful Bridge City square more square than a Starrett? Probably not. Is a cheap big box Stanley square more square than a vintage Preston one? Probably. Some are for work, some are for admiring.


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## Tomcat1066 (Jan 3, 2008)

Veritas and Lie Neilsen planes aren't low end. While they might not be the best of the best, they're definitely not low end. Low end of the quality tools available today? OK, on that one I might be willing to think about, but even then I'm not sure I'll agree with it.

Someone always makes a better tool. You can call anything better than your dream tool "low end" if you want to. You also call a pile of dog pooh a cupcake, but it doesn't make it so.


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## lashomb (Sep 13, 2011)

The infill planes and boutique stuff is nice, but I like to make Shaker and Stickley style furniture. I remember watching a PBS special on the Shakers, and one line sticks out in my mind… "In the entire village, not one line of ornament".

Even if I wanted the fancy tools, it doesn't fit why I started hand tool woodworking, or the period styles I enjoy.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

If LV and L-N are low end, a race to the bottom would be a very good thing for all of us to engage in.

I aspire to own a number of LN hand tools, specifically the #164 with an added toothing blade. They make tools that exceed the famed Stanley quality from pre-war America at prices (for specialty tools like the #164 and #51) way under collector value associated with the vintage originals.


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## tom427cid (Aug 21, 2011)

Since we are on the topic of high end-low end vs quality…....about ten years ago when a Norris was all the rage I happened to be in the UK on holiday. Located a Norris,bought it,brought it home,spared no expence had a custom sized A2 blade made,then tried to surface the door for the walnut tall clock(it's in my gallery). What a disappointment-my $5 #4 from a yard sale ultimately did a much better job! When I first tried the Stanley it did better than the surgically sharp Norris-then I sharpened the Stanley! IMO so much for a Norris. Put it in the show case,finally a customer spotted it and had to have it. He got a good deal and I was finally shed of it.
tom


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## minitool (Oct 18, 2011)

I saw a quote on someone's wall years ago that has given me some guidance…"If you're not happy now, you never will be."


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## drfunk (Jan 26, 2011)

Danged if you do, danged if you don't…

A few years ago back when I was in a band and brought out my BIG flashy boutique-like guitar and played most of a set with it. Afterward, when I sitting around having a few beers, I got about 50% compliments on my cool guitar and 50% criticisms on how I was just showing off. The reality was that nobody mentioned anything about my playing. After that night, I put that guitar in the case and never took it to a gig again. Why? I would rather have people compliment me on making good music on a pawn shop reject than stir up controversy with my big "look at me!" guitar.

Now I have LN, LV and prewar Stanley in my tool collection - but that's me. I simply like to work with high quality tools. And that's what they are: high-quality "heirloom-quality" (North) American made tools. Do I feel the need to upgrade? Not hardly - I no longer want controversy to interfere with my creativity - especially when the benefits of "upgrading" are dubious at best.


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## Dcase (Jul 7, 2010)

I have never understood why tool quality leads to such debates… Guys who buy the top quality tools will look down at the cheaper tools and the guys who buy the cheaper tools will find negatives about the expensive tools…

Tools… Just tools…

I was just wondering…. Jesus was a carpenter right? I wonder what he used… What was the quality of the tools used by the great Jesus… I bet he had a nice premium set of infills.


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## Earlextech (Jan 13, 2011)

It's a poor musician that blames his instrument. But it sure is nice to play a great one!


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

I agree with Dan. If I guy's putting out great work, happily, and using Kunz's, more power to him. In fact, maybe even MORE power to him. If I enjoy using a $1000 plane more thant a $10 plane and my budget allows it, so be it. To wit: I've seen some of your restore planes Dan, probably considered "junk" by 90% of the people here. The problem is, they're putting out full thickness paper thin shavings as long as your arm. That fact really just makes it all a matter of how the tool feels in your hand, and how it makes you feel when you're using it.

A Vintage Martin guitar is a thing of enourmous beauty. The sound is unique and for a mountain man bluegrass guy, it may be the only guitar that truly resonates with his soul. Do I deserve one? Hell no. If I "could" have one but don't deserve one, I'd sell it to someone who does deserve it.

So far my abilities don't demand anything over vintage stanleys.


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## JGM0658 (Aug 16, 2011)

This is ironic, I posted a review of the LN shooting plane and the consensus seemed to be that I was nuts for having paid as much for it. Now you tell me they are considered low end planes?!? Seems I just can't win on this forum…


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

^JGM, I can promise you it wasn't me who called you nuts. I think the LN shooting plane might even be a bit underpriced. If you consider the scarcity of the Stanley original, the work it would likely take, and the volume of raw materials in the LN, I'm surprised it's not more. I hope my quote, "so far my abilities don't demand anything over vintage Stanleys" wasn't taken wrong; that was more an assault on my own ability I own plenty of things that are well beyond my deserving of them


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## drfunk (Jan 26, 2011)

Believe me, anybody who thinks the LN isn't worth the money either knows nothing about shooting or has never tried one at a LN Tool Event. I shoot a lot with my LN 62 and have worn my fingers and knuckles raw shooting 100 year old oak. With the 51, my 7 year old was able to shoot through Maple like the proverbial hot knife. I want one SO bad!


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

DrFunk, they've got to stop making these things!!!! I want one really bad, too. If I could pick one thing from the catalog, that would be it.


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## bunkie (Oct 13, 2009)

This is certainly an interesting discussion.

First off, I am reminded of the parallel madness in the Audio world. There seems to be no upper limit to what can be offered for sale in pursuit of "perfection". Worse, this year's ne plus utra becomes yesterday's old news despite the mind-boggling price.

Second, I think it might be argued that LV and LN are "low-end", if "low-end" is defined as being of sufficient quality to do the job well and have a long service life. There's the rub. I feel that there's no middle any more. There's absolute junk and then there's what one has to pay for honest quality and functionality. That explains why yard-sale stuff can be such a good deal as it comes from a different age with different values. What paying for LN and LV gets you is a reasonable assurance that the tool will do what you expect it to without unhappy surprises. Perhaps the right approach is to call them "entry-level" instead of "low-end", if you will.


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## ArlinEastman (May 22, 2011)

I always thought they were a quality product for the middle class to afford.
Arlin


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

^nod to the audio-/stereo-phile madness.










That's it! Lee Valley is Adcom! lol

Is Philip Marcou upper shelf Krell?


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## JGM0658 (Aug 16, 2011)

Bertha, not at all, it was some other member who thought I was nuts. I understand wants vs wallet size, we all suffer from it…


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

^


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