# prevent mitered return from opening?



## jtm (Dec 2, 2013)

Hi all,

I'm putting mitered returns on my stair treads, and just want to check whether or not glue is sufficient to prevent the miters from opening due to changes in humidity.

Here is an example of what I plan on making:










Thanks in advance


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## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

As long as the tread is an average size and has the proper moisture content(6-8%) it shouldn't be a problem with any of the domestic hardwoods. I've done thousands of them that way…no issues.

If your using Bamboo(pictured above), I can't say specifically. We've built 3 or 4 stairs out of Bamboo in the past, but none had mitered returns. 
If anything though, it seemed much more stable than wood.


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## basswood (Dec 18, 2013)

Compared to the size of most miters in a home (door and window casing, crown etc.) those are rather small miters. This fact alone bodes well for them staying tight.

Good moisture meters are rather inexpensive these days and checking to see that your stock is nice and dry is good advice:

http://www.amazon.com/Sonin-50270-Digital-Moisture-Meter/dp/B005GHLGGE/ref=pd_sbs_hi_6?ie=UTF8&refRID=0C0RQBTDCCBZDX26J5WT


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## Magnum (Feb 5, 2010)

You might want to try a couple of these. (Below)

I just did an Outdoor Table for a Friend and used them even though the corners are held together with 2, 2-1/2" Deck Screws and Plugged.

Only problem is I have No Idea what they are called or where you can get them …LOL… I've had a bunch of them sitting in a Plastic Drawer in My "Hardware Pull Out Drawer Case" for Years now.

Personally? I think they Work & Hold Very Well!


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## reedwood (Jan 27, 2011)

Hey Tony, do you route the joint like this? 
I have a jig that 45s the joint….if even needed. Not sure I like this look.
I imagine it would be a faster one step process with a flush bit VS cleaning up a 45. 
Maybe if it didn't sweep so much and just had a rounded inside corner?

JTM - curious, what will the hand rails be made from? do they make bamboo hand rails? will you be staining it? have you considered having just end grain and no return?

Rick - I'd be real surprised if you could hammer that into bamboo or any hardwood for that matter. You'd probably be better off with a biscuit or M&T or glue and nail or screw and cap.

I like your avatar….you're like the Grizzly Adams of LJ.


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## Magnum (Feb 5, 2010)

*Rick - I'd be real surprised if you could hammer that into bamboo or any hardwood for that matter.*

Be Surprised then. These things are VERY Hard. I've used them in Oak & Walnut so far.

*"Glue And Nail"? * *"Just end grain and NO Return?"* *"Maybe if it didn't sweep so much and just had a rounded inside corner?"*

*HUH???*


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## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

Mark
I agree 100% with you on the large radius, it looks like ********************. A 3/8" diameter leaves a barely noticeable round in the corner though. The only time I use a true (two piece)miter is for a convex tread(whether it's a straight or curved stair) because the nosing is typically a bent lamination glued separately and then glued to the tread with the return.

No mechanical fasteners of any sort are needed especially the ones pictured above. A good clean joint, Tightbond and clamps is all you need…even if you could pound those in without breaking the joint they would be pretty unsightly on a staircase.


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## reedwood (Jan 27, 2011)

Are they pre-making treads like this now? always something new.


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## Magnum (Feb 5, 2010)

"No mechanical fasteners of any sort are needed *especially the ones pictured above*. A good clean joint, Tightbond and clamps is all you need…even if you could pound those in* without breaking the joint they would be pretty unsightly on a staircase.*

The "Ones Pictured Above" are on the UNDERSIDE of the Table Joint. No one can see them. That's where I was suggesting they be put on the Tread. Would that not be Possible? Would they still be seen?

Personally I don't give a Rats Butt how he does it. I was just offering a suggestion. Of course you being the High ZEN Mucky Muck of Stairs & Tread Technology, I would think that he would take your Advice over mine.

Nice Blogs though * ".I just thought since I tend to get a bit 'opinionated' on certain subjects….here and there…(translates into 'piss people off' sometimes)*

Happy Now MR. Tony??


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## jtm (Dec 2, 2013)

Thanks for the responses.

The treads are cherry.

And these miters have turned into a royal pain in the ass.


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## jtm (Dec 2, 2013)

So I made a jig to cut the miter on the tread.

I had to make it upright to account for the radius of the blade. Otherwise, I would have over-cut into the bottom side of the tread.

Then I use the SCMS to crosscut up to the mitered 45. After that, I finish the cut by hand.

The problem is, when I complete the cut by hand, I can't keep the cut perfectly smooth and square like my table saw.

Here are some pics:




























I glued one up and there is a tiny gap at the joint. It's not the end of the world, but I'd like to make the rest better if possible. I'm open to suggestions.

Also, I'm thinking about using pocket screws to hold the return in place. It'll also make clamping these returns much easier during glue-up. Any reason not to do so?


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## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

The simplest way for you to execute this would be to do as Mark suggested above and make a jig and use a flush trim bit(3/8"Dia. works well).
Mark your return lines on the tread and cut the excess out on a bandsaw about 1/16 away from your pencil line leaving a little bit more material in the crotch of the miter. Clamp the jig to the top of the tread, turn it over and trim the joint clean with the router.
The heel of the miter on the return will need a small round to fit the tread. You can do that with a jig or by hand.
To glue, I would use a hand clamp as you've done above and two pipe clamps across the tread.
The other option would be to miter the front nosing separately and then glue it on.

The screws really aren't necessary for what you're trying to achieve, but if your more comfortable with that, give it a try.
My main concern with the screws would be 1. It shouldn't be necessary 2.The time it would take to do it accurately. 3. Hitting a screw when you're bullnosing the edge or 4. having a screw hole show even if you did remove the screw before profiling.
Not a whole lot of room for error there.
You never know though….if you can get the screws positioned perfectly you may not even need the clamps.

The high zen mucky muck of stair and tread technology.

PS.
Mark, yes pre-made stock treads with returns are readily available but only in limited dimensions and materials.
Quality is often an issue as well.


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## Magnum (Feb 5, 2010)

EDIT: Removed.


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## jtm (Dec 2, 2013)

I don't have a 3/8" pattern bit, but I do have a guide bearing set.

And I don't have a bandsaw or jigsaw either. (Although I'm in the market for one - can't decide on the Laguna 1412, Rikon 10-325, or a 17" Grizzly, but that's for another day)


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## jtm (Dec 2, 2013)

Well this sucks…

What the hell good are those guide bearing kits if they obscure 80% of the available cutting area on the router bit?!?

I have a 1/2" pattern bit. I'll use that, and while I hate the look of full radiused miters (like the pic in the first post), I can live with the slight radius caused by the 1/2" bit.


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## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

Sounds like the easiest way for you to get through this would be mitering the nosing and return separately from the tread, then gluing them on. It's a bit slower than the method I described previously, but will be a lot quicker than what your struggling with now.

The end results will be better as well.


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## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

Not sure about the guide bearing kit your referring to, but your plain ol' 1/2" pattern bit will work fine.


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## jtm (Dec 2, 2013)

Well, the good news is, it looks like this is going to work.

The bad news…
I'll probably need a new bit after routing all this end grain cherry.


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## jtm (Dec 2, 2013)

Ok so I made a template for my router.

It worked reasonably well; not perfect, but better than the upright table saw method.

There are still tiny tiny gaps at the mitered corner, but I think I have a workaround. I glued them up upside down. Hopefully gravity will pull the excess glue through the tiny gaps and fill them nicely. When I stain the treads, they should be indistinguishable from the actual wood.

Also, it's a huge pain in the ass to glue up 50+" miters without a huge collection of pipe clamps.

That said, I used a little ingenuity and came up with an absolutely perfect solution…










HF ratcheting tie downs work better than any of my other available clamps, and at $7.99 for a set of 4, they're way cheaper too.


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## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

Good job. All you can ask for at the end of the day is to improve.

You said there were still tiny gaps in the corner of the miter….any guesses as to why? The jig? Endgrain tearout?

As for the straps, although pipe clamps are easier/quicker they're an awesome solution to a lot of different problems like this…


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## jbald (Dec 11, 2011)

Nothing wrong with gluing the nosing onto glue-up boards but finished tread stock typically comes with the bull-nose already run along the leading edge. Unless you want to rip off that edge and re-glue it, you're stuck cutting the miters as is.

There are no easy answers here but this ones mine…

I stack all the treads evenly and clamp them together tightly. Then I stand the whole bundle up vertically on the floor and up against the work bench. Using a skill or cabinet saw set at 45 degrees and a straight edge fence, I saw all the miter cuts at once. A radial arm and hand saw completes the crosscut to the miter.

There's no quicker or easier way to do this and if done with care, is as good as it gets. Milling miters on inch thick treads (especially bamboo) with a handheld router is not very practical to say the least (you're going to be at it for quite a spell.) CNC is the production way to do this.

As for attachment, I vote for the traditional wood-spline and non-crystallizing glue. I'll glue and clamp them up wherever possible. I cut the spline slot with a wing cutter and router.

A hard glue attachment and no nails can result in them being knocked or simply falling off. Treads with the nosing returns already attached are often glued only half their length and allowed to float across the rest of the end grain. But as I've said, I prefer a full-length spline and glue.

This is called "stair work" and it's never easy. The real fun begins when curved nosings must be attached to winder treads with acute or obtuse bisected angles etc. .


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## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

*Milling miters on inch thick treads (especially bamboo) with a handheld router is not very practical to say the least (you're going to be at it for quite a spell.)*

It would take one of my apprentices (in no rush) no longer than 1 1/2 hrs to cut, route, fit the return, glue and clamp an entire set of returns on one side of 15-16 straight treads. No tear out, no blow outs, no gaps.

Not very practical? Your method must be a lot more efficient….how long does it take?

*A hard glue attachment and no nails can result in them being knocked or simply falling off.*

Honest question…Why haven't I had any issues in 23 years now? None.


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## jtm (Dec 2, 2013)

Jim.

I tried your method basically with my table saw sled. I would expect this to be more accurate than a circular saw, and it still didn't line up perfectly.

As far as routing the mitered pattern, I rough cut each piece such that it took only a minute or two to do the routing.


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## jtm (Dec 2, 2013)

Here's the first two after a couple of passes through the drum sander:










I'm reasonably satisfied with how they came out.


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## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

Not bad for a 'rookie' lol!
I see the small gaps you mentioned…to be honest with you, I wouldn't find them acceptable myself. (I would hate to have me as a customer…or a Journeyman) But I'd say not bad for the minimal to no instruction you've had.
It's a much smaller learning curve when you've got someone watching over you giving you tips as you go.


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## jbald (Dec 11, 2011)

Tony,

The fact that you've never had a call back over a tread return is great but that doesn't necessarily mean that your methods are absolutely foolproof or without question. Your glued-on tread returns can be easily knocked off with a slight mallet tap (I've done it often enough).

Then there's seasonal wood movement which is undeniable and unrelenting. This can average about 1% across the grain or nearly 1/8" in the dimensional width of the tread. The nosing piece won't shrink along it's length but the tread shrinks and expands year after year. That's why mass produced treads with attached nosings, are only glued about half their length.

While I haven't had a tread return fall off either, I have seen them no longer flush with a tread surface or not completely attached as when I made them. The spline solved all of this.

Simply gluing a wood stick over end-grain of a board, has never been regarded as "good joinery" You wouldn't consider it for a tabletop but what about a 42" landing platform?

If your method is so quick and easy then you should have time to add the spline. Either way though, stairs should be built to last a lifetime with no issues. (No argument here I'm sure.)
__
The subject of cutting or routing tread miters is an old argument and a popular woodworking thread. I'd say whatever works for you is the way to go. The simple fact that you're actually adding the miter returns puts you way ahead of the crowd and most of the so-called "stair guys". (A sad fact indeed)

Even though I have large machines to rout treads and miter returns, I prefer to cut them to a point. I don't care if it takes longer or isn't as precise; it's part of the look of traditional stair joinery and (for me) that's the whole point.

,


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## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

Jim

I have no want or desire to get into a pissing match with you, but I have a strong suspicion that's what this would turn into.

You have a certain all knowing tone in your posts(intended or otherwise) that I can't say I care for, but, with that said…I have no doubt that I can be accused of the same.

Not to say either is true….the keyboard is a poor form of communication(for me at least) at best.

You and I both know that true, high end, custom stair and railing builders are a special breed. The best, are one in a hundred(if that). They can often be mistaken as stubborn, bullheaded and arrogant but are typically anything but. 
I don't doubt for a second that this is the case here.

I could only imagine sitting at a table with you talking stairs and railing, I'm sure it would be a long and enjoyable session.

I'm going to leave it at that.

Nice work by the way…


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## Picklehead (Feb 12, 2013)

Nice to see a differences of opinion expressed in a civil manner.


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## jbald (Dec 11, 2011)

Toni,

Yes, you're right in every respect… I forget sometimes that I may be addressing a capable professional and not some amateur or student.

It's been nearly 40 years for me now and past my time to retire. I should probably sit down and shut-up.


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