# Lumber at the big box store???



## becikeja (Sep 12, 2010)

I have not purchased lumber at a big box store in years. But this weekend I am visiting the inlaws and wandered into one. I decided to walk down the lumber aisle to see what was there. $10/bd ft. for red oak?? Are you kidding me? I now remember why I don't buy wood at the big box store.


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## Gilley23 (May 9, 2017)

Yeah if it's not pine then it's pricey. Here in Charlotte oak is cheaper at woodcraft than it is it Hd or blowes.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

I think it's priced to keep people from buying it to protect them from themselves. Red oak is some of the most God awful looking wood out there.

Sarcasm, of course. Except the part about God awful looking.


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## JohnDi (Jun 23, 2014)

Lately I have been finding a crapload of Birdseye maple at my local HD's.
I live in philly, and stop in about once a week when I'm driving by one.
I guess the mills don't sort when they cut for them.
Hope they keep that up!


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## tomsteve (Jan 23, 2015)

find an HD with walnut and check out the price.


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## Firewood (Dec 4, 2013)

You can find some real bargains if you look hard enough or stop in at the right time. But $9 / LF for 1×4 walnut isn't one of them.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

Here they sell it by the linear foot and it's very expensive.


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## jonah (May 15, 2009)

It's like they looked at some hardwood dealer's price list which is delineated by board feet, and then decided to use the board foot price for linear feet of 1×4.


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## Carloz (Oct 12, 2016)

HD sells by foot and we all know that goods are much cheaper when buying in bulk. If you show up at my local lumberyard and ask a foot of read oak they would promptly show you the door.
Besides thar hardwood sold in HD is dimentioned on 4 sides to specific width. Plus the wood is of very high quality, no knots, gouges, cracks … A lumberyard on the other hand shifts much of the wate associated with the dimentioning onto the customer.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> If you show up at my local lumberyard and ask a foot of read oak they would promptly show you the door.
> 
> - Carloz


You should find a friendlier lumber dealer. Here in Tucson, I'm fortunate to have Woodworker's Source, who deal in a wide variety of premium hardwoods.

Their policy is, you can buy one foot off a board, and they'll cut it for you for free. The rule is that the board has to have six feet left on it after your cut - four feet for an exotic. Since their boards are all FAS, that's not a problem.

Your guys sound like real jerks.

Edit: Regarding the big box S4S, there are a number of issues. First, the waste from dimensioning S2S myself is minimal, especially considering the cost differential. Second, the big box S4S is 3/4" thick precisely. That means that if the board has even the slightest bend, you can't get a straight piece of 3/4" out of it.


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## splintergroup (Jan 20, 2015)

The big box wood is very pretty and completely surfaced, plus you can select your boats from the entire stock, no rules. Convenience is also a big plus when you just need a single board.

But….

The prices are truly exorbitant and only to be paid in times of desperation. My local hardware/lumber yard had a beautiful piece of red oak, excellent rift saw grain, even color, perfectly flat/straight, 10" wide, $50/bf.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> The big box wood is very pretty and completely surfaced, plus you can select your boats from the entire stock, no rules. Convenience is also a big plus when you just need a single board.
> 
> - splintergroup


It's surprising to read these supposed benefits to big box S4S lumber. First was the one that asking for a single foot off a board would be refused, and this one that you can select board from the entire stock. I already wrote about my dealer's policy allowing small pieces to be cut from longer boards, but they also allow me to pick and choose from their entire stock.

Makes me wonder how other hardwood dealers handle things. Is it rare to be able to choose boards and buy short cutoffs?


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## jonah (May 15, 2009)

> HD sells by foot and we all know that goods are much cheaper when buying in bulk. If you show up at my local lumberyard and ask a foot of read oak they would promptly show you the door.
> Besides thar hardwood sold in HD is dimentioned on 4 sides to specific width. Plus the wood is of very high quality, no knots, gouges, cracks … A lumberyard on the other hand shifts much of the wate associated with the dimentioning onto the customer.
> 
> - Carloz


If you've ever been able to find a straight board at a big box store, you're doing better than I am. They store their lumber stacked on end at an angle, which virtually guarantees it'll end up as a ski jump and not a flat board.

Big box lumber is only good when you absolutely need something on a Sunday when no real lumber dealers are open.


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## tomsteve (Jan 23, 2015)

i will say that i have a menards near me that has oak,maple, yellow birch, and poplar that isnt the wrapped in plastic stuff- free standing S3S.
not the price i could get it RS, but with it being S3S, not a bad price.


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## EricTwice (Dec 9, 2016)

find a sawyer, and clean it up yourself, 
You end up with a better product, and it really is your own work
last oak I bought was 98cents a board/foot. rough, random lengths and widths, not graded but he let me sort through it. same price red or white and as much as I wanted to buy
local guy, air dried. that was a couple of years ago though,

You are always better off if you buy from the source. The more people who handle it the more you will pay.


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## splintergroup (Jan 20, 2015)

> Makes me wonder how other hardwood dealers handle things. Is it rare to be able to choose boards and buy short cutoffs?
> 
> - RichTaylor


RIch,

My main source (one of only two) let you dig down 3 levels into the stack. The latest dealer I found lets you choose from they entire stock and will cut to length if you need shorter pieces to haul or only need a few feet. (they are a tad cheaper too!)


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## cathode (May 18, 2014)

What's truly amazing (and saddening) is that home depot / lowes could easily attract business from a lot of woodworkers if their so-called "pro desk" actually knew anything about anything at all. I am fortunate to have a decent selection of hardwood dealers in my area (Portland, OR), but if I needed say, 100 board feet of rough 4/4 poplar, and I was buying other stuff from HD, i would gladly buy it from them if it was something they could order, because it would save me a trip across town. HD and Lowes are HUGE businesses and have deep relationships with a lot of suppliers and vendors. If they leveraged this buying power, they could probably strongarm the larger mills into giving them very competitive pricing.

I made the mistake one time of going to home depot and asking at the pro desk if I could special order lumber by the board foot. I got a blank look from one guy and the other guy offered to walk me to the aisle where they sold "premium hardwoods".


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## Gene01 (Jan 5, 2009)

Rich, woodworkers source is my go to place also. Five hours for me but got kids in Tucson.
Spellman, out of Phoenix, has a yard in Flag. A lot closer. They'll let you pick all you want and help you re stack. But, there isn't a saw in the place. 
Hood Dist. Is a neat place, too. Do you know of any other yards down there?


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Rich, woodworkers source is my go to place also. Five hours for me but got kids in Tucson.
> Spellman, out of Phoenix, has a yard in Flag. A lot closer. They ll let you pick all you want and help you re stack. But, there isn t a saw in the place.
> Hood Dist. Is a neat place, too. Do you know of any other yards down there?
> 
> - Gene Howe


There is a mesquite yard I just discovered down on S. Cherry, across from Standard Restaurant Supply. It must be relatively new, because I've been going to Standard for almost 30 years and would have noticed it. They had two massive trunks on trailers out front with the roots still attached, probably casualties of the recent storms. I was busy that day and had to get some stuff from Standard, so I didn't stop in, but it's clearly a mill, with a large inventory of flitches, stacked with stickers and tied. I'm not sure if it's ready for use yet though. I'll go back down in the next week or two to check it out.

There's a really nice mesquite yard down south of Tubac. They do their own milling and stack in flitches as well, with slabs up to 16/4 and probably thicker.

Frankly, even if there were another dealer like Woodworker's Source here in town, I wouldn't switch. The guys down there are real pros. I'll wind up with a dozen or two boards, 8 to 12 feet long, standing up against the racks to choose and they always tell me to just leave them and they'll put them back. I do it myself anyway. They've even brought out inventory with their forklift that they just got in for me to pick through.


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## TwangyOne (Apr 21, 2009)

So I work at the big blue box, and I can tell you, the lumber carried by the company is not carried for those like us. It's there for the everyday DIY'er that thinks he can build whatever he saw on TV or Pinterest and he doesn't know that other options exist (i.e. local mills). The lumber vendors continually send inferior product, in inferior shipping conditions, and we follow the corporate protocol and stand the boards on end to be sorted through and manhandled by every John Doe that comes in thinking he will find that perfect board at the back of the stack. Don't get me wrong, from time to time there are gems to be found, but the lumber being sold isn't targeted at us woodworkers.

Look at the tool selection as well, it's geared more towards contractors building homes, and the DIY'ers that are just tinkering with the idea of woodworking (i.e. Skill and Black & Decker). Overall, the company is just out for the profit margin, and targets those that are uninformed of other options, or in need of a convenient source.


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

> Convenience is also a big plus when you just need a single board.
> 
> - splintergroup





> It s surprising to read these supposed benefits to big box S4S lumber. First was the one that asking for a single foot off a board would be refused, and this one that you can select board from the entire stock.
> 
> - RichTaylor


For ME, Sometimes when you just need a board, it makes good business sense.
Example: 
It takes me 30 minutes each way to go to the lumber store, plus approx. 20 minute while there.
So 80 minutes round trip (1 hour and 20 min)
Lowes is 5 minutes away, maybe 10 minute while there, so 20 minutes round trip. (maybe 25 minutes)

By going to Lowes I save an hour of time. 
Not only the hour of time, but that's another hour of work I am able to do.
Basically that saves me 2 hours worth of production. 
Figure your cost for 2 hours of shop time, and all of a sudden the 20 dollars extra for a board isn't so bad.

You need to figure how many boards you need, then weigh it out to see if it's worth the extra money or making the trip to the lumber yard.

PS, My lumber yard will cut off whatever I need or let me dig to the bottom of the unit if I want. I also have a 25 year relationship with them and always restack the unit, most of the time better than I found it.


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## Slider20 (Dec 21, 2016)

Aside from a few projects that I made when I first started out, I have not purchased any hardwoods at HD or Lowes.

Just a hobbyist, but there are so many sources for much nicer and cheaper lumber I see no reason for me to bother with HD or Lowes. I don't have any time constraints, so I can order online, but I'm in NYC and there are plenty or decent lumberyards arounds.

I still go to Home Depot for inexpensive sheet goods, pine, Doug Fir, Cedar and assorted soft woods.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

Ha, those prices helped me justify a jet 12 jointer/planer and buying rough sawn wood.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

> The big box wood is very pretty and completely surfaced, plus you can select your boats from the entire stock, no rules. Convenience is also a big plus when you just need a single board.
> 
> - splintergroup
> 
> ...


Don't compare "lumber yards" with "hardwood suppliers". They are completely different. Lumber yards are for the building trades while hardwood dealers are for the craftsman. I agree that red oak and any other hardwood sold at a big box store is both expensive and of questionable quality, but where I live, if I need a hardwood, it's either the big box store or an on-line source. I can get it right now at the big box, but on-line has it's disadvantages. You can't see the wood you are getting; it can get damaged in transit; it takes days to arrive and the cost of shipping and handling. I don't have the luxury of having a hardwood dealer near me.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Don t compare "lumber yards" with "hardwood suppliers". They are completely different. Lumber yards are for the building trades while hardwood dealers are for the craftsman.
> 
> - MrRon


That is at odds with the dictionary definition of lumber which makes no distinction between hardwood and building material. Lumber is simply timber that's been cut into boards, and you buy it at a yard.

Time for me to lumber out to the shop to cut some lumber.


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## gargey (Apr 11, 2016)

> That is at odds with the dictionary definition of lumber which makes no distinction between hardwood and building material. Lumber is simply timber that s been cut into boards, and you buy it at a yard.
> - RichTaylor


Except he's right and you're obtuse.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Shame you all don't have an Amish lumber mill in your areas…..there are about 6 near here….


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Except he s right and you re obtuse.
> 
> - gargey


Actually, the dictionary is right and I'm only difficult to understand if you're slow.

Bless your heart.


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## Kazooman (Jan 20, 2013)

> Except he s right and you re obtuse.
> 
> - gargey
> 
> ...


I have to agree with Rich on this one. My "go to" hardwood supplier is the L. L. Johnson Lumber Mfg. Co. in Charlotte, Michigan. They have a very extensive catalog of hardwoods, all of it listed as "lumber". Here's some text I copied off their website:

A SPECIALTY LUMBERYARD
THE LONGEST RUNNING HARDWOOD LUMBER COMPANY IN MICHIGAN
Established in 1909, we are a specialty lumber yard providing access to over 100 domestic and exotic hardwood species, and have the edge with our top-quality plywood and veneer products.

Geez…. over 100 years in the business and they didn't know they were not really a lumberyard after all.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

I've worked all over the world and in most of every state, years ago I was somewhere in the middle of the country, maybe St. Louis, maybe some other flyover. Anyway the client ordered us "Grinders" for lunch, what came were like sealed sub sandwiches. Looked like a tubular Calzone. It was ok, but new to me.

Years later in Hartford, I went to a cafeteria with the client, 2 of us went first and 2 came a little later, I was in line when I saw a sign for "Grinders" for $5.99, I asked the lady I was with if they were sealed or like a sub and she said they were like subs. Later at lunch she told the other guys I didn't know what a Grinder was. One of the guys, MT said I mustn't get around much. After MT left the other guy told me that MT had never left Connecticut until that year when he drove his son to start college in Michigan.

I never said anything to MT (because he was an idiot), since I had realized years before that there are huge regional differences in nomenclature and criticizing someone is just rude.

Some names for sub:Hoagie, Hero, Italian, Po' boy, Wedge, Blimpie, Torpedo, Zeppelin.

We have a huge hardwood place in MD called j gibson mcilvain, searching for lumber stores will find them. Shannon Rogers works there and he talks about them a bit and they sound like a specialty store. I'm only working with rough cut lumber now, so I don't care at the moment.

Arguing and insulting over this seems a bit ignorant to me.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

I'm surprised no one noticed the elephant in the room - we're talking about this on a site called *Lumber*Jocks…lol


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## tomsteve (Jan 23, 2015)

> Shame you all don t have an Amish lumber mill in your areas…..there are about 6 near here….
> 
> - bandit571


now ya gone and done it- ungraded lumber????! 

i miss the amish mills from when i lived up north,mi.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

To me, "lumberyard" implies stacks of pressure treated DF or SYP stored outdoors. A"hardwood supplier or dealer" to me, implies stacks of seasoned hardwoods kept indoors and stored usually vertically in random lengths.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> To me, "lumberyard" implies stacks of pressure treated DF or SYP stored outdoors. A"hardwood supplier or dealer" to me, implies stacks of seasoned hardwoods kept indoors and stored usually vertically in random lengths.
> 
> - MrRon


Sure, but you do accept that others may have different terms, eh?


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> To me, "lumberyard" implies stacks of pressure treated DF or SYP stored outdoors. A"hardwood supplier or dealer" to me, implies stacks of seasoned hardwoods kept indoors and stored usually vertically in random lengths.
> 
> - MrRon
> 
> ...


Actually, his statement is perfectly legitimate, and he's not obligated to accept anything. For someone to say "to me, it implies" can't be disputed.

I only took exception to his first post because he made an absolute statement that "Lumber yards are for the building trades while hardwood dealers are for the craftsman," which is incorrect.

I notice that no one has commented on my post about the irony that such a discussion is taking place on a site called LumberJocks. Since few of us are writing about homebuilding, why isn't it called HardwoodJocks?


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

I buy most of my cabinetry goods from…. Petermans…..wait for it…......LUMBER
they don't even sale construction grade materials other than plywoods.
They should change their name to Petermans Hardwoods I guess… lol

General speaking, I always have defined lumberyards as being specific to construction materials myself.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> To me, "lumberyard" implies stacks of pressure treated DF or SYP stored outdoors. A"hardwood supplier or dealer" to me, implies stacks of seasoned hardwoods kept indoors and stored usually vertically in random lengths.
> 
> - MrRon
> 
> ...


Never said it wasn't legitimate. Never said he had to accept anything, I asked if he could understand others having a different term.

Perhaps the irony isn't really there. According to you I don't have to accept anything from you.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Perhaps the irony isn t really there. According to you I don t have to accept anything from you.
> 
> - RobS888


Who was it that said "Arguing and insulting over this seems a bit ignorant to me?" LOL


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Perhaps the irony isn t really there. According to you I don t have to accept anything from you.
> 
> - RobS888
> 
> ...


This isn't even about nomenclature now, it is about you picking fights. You are taking exception to what I said to MrRon, that was simply that others may have different terms, but you wanta fight, so yeah, you are being ignorant.

You may not be aware of this, but turn around is fair play. You don't seem to like it though.


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## Cricket (Jan 15, 2014)

Y'all knock it off. The constant bickering ruins it for everyone.


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## GR8HUNTER (Jun 13, 2016)

I did not know you were an elementary school teacher Cricket LMAO :<))


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## hotbyte (Apr 3, 2010)

In England or Australia, would it be TimberJocks??? 



> <snip>
> I notice that no one has commented on my post about the irony that such a discussion is taking place on a site called LumberJocks. Since few of us are writing about homebuilding, why isn t it called HardwoodJocks?
> 
> - RichTaylor


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

The cost deters me. But i look once in a while because the folks shipping to these stores dont cull the figured wood. I have found curly maple there just barcoded as regular stuff.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> *The cost deters me. * But i look once in a while because the folks shipping to these stores dont cull the figured wood. I have found curly maple there just barcoded as regular stuff.
> 
> - DrDirt


Me too, a few years back I calculated HD was 3 times my cost to buy and process rough cut lumber. Part of my presentation to the boss for a new joiner/plainer.


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

I scored a nice piece of curly maple and another of curly birch at HD. I seem to recall it was about $8 a linear foot for 4/4 by 6". Also, our local ACE DIY Center has oak and maple in 1/4" boards for about 1/3rd the boutique store price. I did the math- it's about $54 per BF for the 1/4" maple at ACE, curly or not. It's S4S, so ready to make a project out of.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> I scored a nice piece of curly maple and another of curly birch at HD. I seem to recall it was about $8 a linear foot for 4/4 by 6". Also, our local ACE DIY Center has oak and maple in 1/4" boards for about 1/3rd the boutique store price. I did the math- it s about $54 per BF for the 1/4" maple at ACE, curly or not. It s S4S, so ready to make a project out of.
> 
> - Dark_Lightning


$54/bf?


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## rad457 (Jun 15, 2013)

I came across a local Hardware/lumberyard here in Edmonton that actually had some not bad Oak and Walnut 4/4 at 
$3 to $4 a bd/ft, even planed smooth on both sides. Around here that's a steal My local hardwood supplier has 1/4 sawn white oak at $15 a bd/ft.


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## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

> I scored a nice piece of curly maple and another of curly birch at HD. I seem to recall it was about $8 a linear foot for 4/4 by 6". Also, our local ACE DIY Center has oak and maple in 1/4" boards for about 1/3rd the boutique store price. I did the math- it s about $54 per BF for the 1/4" maple at ACE, curly or not. It s S4S, so ready to make a project out of.
> 
> - Dark_Lightning


Sweet mother of Christ….how do you afford to build anything?


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## Slider20 (Dec 21, 2016)

I paid freight for about 800 BF of assorted rough sawn exotics, hardwoods, slabs and some finer softwoods.

Got it from a small operation in the southern US. Came out to about $2.50 a BF for everything.

Chery, Walnut, Walnut Slabs, Ash, Butternut, Basswood, Red Oak, Cypress, Sapele, Buninga, Purple Heart, Hickory, Hard Maple, Wenge and a few others that I can't recall.

Now I just build from my lumber pile and I don't think much about the initial investment.

Hard to swallow paying $10 a BF for Red Oak at Home Depot.


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## Cricket (Jan 15, 2014)

> Y all knock it off. The constant bickering ruins it for everyone.
> 
> - Cricket


Sometimes I feel like it. (grin)


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## BillyDoubleU (Mar 11, 2017)

When I worked construction we got our lumber from Grant Road Lumber. Always good stud wood too.

I am glad I live near a WoodWorkers Source. My neighbor actually works there 

I have bought bit of Red Oak from HD. Made a Mantel and surround out of it. Have no real idea what I paid for it off the top of my head but it was nice boards.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> When I worked construction we got our lumber from Grant Road Lumber. Always good stud wood too.
> 
> - BillyDoubleU


That was such a good store. Too bad it closed. I used to shop at Kent's Tools all the time. Lots of my Amana bits still have the price on the pouch with his signature black sharpie. Last time I went down there though, I was pretty disappointed. His prices are too high for everyday stuff. Still a good last resort for the odd tool that no one else has though.


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## BillyDoubleU (Mar 11, 2017)

> When I worked construction we got our lumber from Grant Road Lumber. Always good stud wood too.
> 
> - BillyDoubleU
> 
> ...


I've not been to Kent's, I recently learned about it and looked at the eBay prices… I'll get in there eventually.


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## jonah (May 15, 2009)

> I scored a nice piece of curly maple and another of curly birch at HD. I seem to recall it was about $8 a linear foot for 4/4 by 6".
> 
> - Dark_Lightning


You realize you can get 4/4 curly maple for a whole lot less than $16 a board foot at just about any hardwood dealer, right?

At the place I used to go to, 4/4 maple was ~$5/bf and curly was ~$8/bf


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

> I scored a nice piece of curly maple and another of curly birch at HD. I seem to recall it was about $8 a linear foot for 4/4 by 6".
> 
> - Dark_Lightning
> 
> ...


I'm only saying that it is there. If you want a small piece for a small box or something, no point in buying a big plank, resawing, planing and sanding it to size. FWIW, I go to a couple of "local" yards for my wood- Conejo Hardwood and Stone and Far West Plywood. Both are about 20 miles from me, in different directions. And yes, that price is ridiculous, but it's about 1/3 of the wood boutique store prices- $2.99 rather than $8.99. I'd venture to say that hobbyists may not know any better.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Perhaps the irony isn t really there. According to you I don t have to accept anything from you.
> 
> - RobS888
> 
> ...


I'm sorry your joke wasn't funny, you don't need to insult me in other threads because your joke tanked.

Where did this happen?

"You're helping to make my point for me. You just made an assumption about me based on your beliefs about conservatism. In other words, you believe it so you see it. It's bigoted to suggest that all conservatives are religious.

Anyway, I've had my say.* I proved the other day that you are incapable of holding your own in a debate with me. *Which reminds me, it's turnabout is fair play, not turnaround is fair play. You can't even get simple cliches right..lol"

I think arguing over store types/names is stupid. Picking fights though, is just ignorant and you have proven yourself that at least twice. I said conservatives are more religious, that is a fact. Conservatives have faith without proof, Liberals have proof without faith.


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## papadan (Mar 6, 2009)

LumberJocks is a woodworking site, not religion, politics, or bull********************. Don't revive a thread after 5 days just to attack someone, let it go!


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> LumberJocks is a woodworking site, not religion, politics, or bull********************. Don t revive a thread after 5 days just to attack someone, let it go!
> 
> - papadan


That is funny from you, he claimed to have one something here.


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## papadan (Mar 6, 2009)

Who claimed to have one of what?


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> LumberJocks is a woodworking site, not religion, politics, or bull********************. Don t revive a thread after 5 days just to attack someone, let it go!
> 
> - papadan
> 
> ...


What does "one something" mean? Did you intend to write "won something?"


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Who claimed to have one of what?
> 
> - papadan


Little does he know, but I really have two…lol


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

Yup, autocorrect got me again.

So the point is you, claimed to have won something. What was it? I saw you attack me, did you believe that meant you won a debate. That was the first time I recall commenting with you, but when I went to block you, to my surprise you were already blocked, I realized you were a jerk before, and blocked you. First impressions are correct.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Tom, Bert, and William…....


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## papadan (Mar 6, 2009)

Autocorrect? Now that's funny!


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## Cricket (Jan 15, 2014)

Seriously, what part of enough is enough are people not understanding?

If anyone is unable to avoid participating in constant bickering, let me know so that I can help you to do so.

Life is too short for this nonsense…


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