# Is CNC Woodworking?



## DS

Is CNC woodworking?

I hear this a lot-the great CNC debate. Is it really woodworking?

Mostly, I hear it from people who have very little understanding of what a CNC machine does, or, what you can expect it to do for you.

For many, it is the proverbial black box with its most mysterious ways.

To my experienced CNC Woodworking ear, it sounds kind of like when someone who uses only hand tools might say, "Is a Tablesaw woodworking?"

Also, when we say CNC, what machine are we actually referring to? I've worked in shops with as many as seven different types of machines that were all CNC. Beam Saw, Point to Point router, Nested Router, Horizontal boring and dowel insertion, Cutoff saw with an optical pusher, Lathe with a mill option and a Door Shaper - all CNC.

For me, the answer to this question is a definitive Yes, woodworking happens with a CNC.

Hopefully this can be a forum for discussion of and education about CNC Woodworking - The Pros, the Cons, perhaps, the philosophical implications for the craft that we all enjoy.


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## SPalm

Sure, why not?

Steve


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## gargey

Its not woodworking unless you rip the tree out of the ground with your bare hands.


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## BLarge

I am doing come custom cabinets for my wife's office… I have to be honest, next time I am doing the design in a program and having the pieces CNC'd.

Is it woodworking, that depends on your philosophical tilt. If you are in business to make money, CNC probably becomes a no brainer/ must do. If you are a hobbiest and you get a existential high from cutting the most intricate dovetails, probably not.

at this point I'm a CNC and HVLP guy all day, im sure there are others that disagree


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## DS

CNC machines have been around for decades.
The hardware of the machines hasn't changed much since the beginning.

The real innovation has come with software. CNC woodworking used to be very inflexible. An engineer would take a month to manually write g-code and then that code was used to produce thousands of identical parts.

Today, our g-code is disposable. Use it once and forget it. The 3D design tools are incredible. The post-processing links from 3D models to g-code has enabled us to very rapidly produce custom items that were once thought to be prohibitive.

That said, there are two skills that are essential for CNC woodworking. 1) CAD/CAM design (computer skill) and 2) Woodworking skill.

In early 2000 I put together a ten person team to create designs and programs for a large custom shop. Unfortunately, the pool of people with BOTH of the necessary skills just didn't readily exist at the time.

I hired people from both schools. I hired CAD artists and taught them woodworking and I hired woodworkers and taught them CAD/CAM. In all cases, those who knew woodworking first were more successful than those who knew nothing of woodworking but were computer geniuses.

The CAD artists were very proficient at making wonderful pictures and designs, but struggled to produce anything that could be built successfully in the shop. The woodworkers struggled with basic computer skills and abstract designs, but, their work nearly always produced something we could build and sell.

Much of woodworking cannot be taught in a classroom setting. It is learned in the shop, often with hard lessons learned from mistakes. This re-enforces to me that CNC IS woodworking.

Your thoughts?


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## Desert_Woodworker

DS- I have been pro CNC since 2013. I got the bug after watching Andy Pitts master woodworker on YTube https://www.youtube.com/user/AndyPitts1000/videos?&ab_channel=AndrewPitts~FurnitureMaker
He adds a CNC to his shop. If you watch his videos; his projects seem to use all aspects of woodworking. Regardless of what others may think, it is like the Shakers early table saw, corded drill to cordless the evolution of woodworking…
Attached is a project, of mine, that is made of "maple" 5×7", 20 hours of continuous machine time… I may add more comments as this forum develops.









In parting as I say to posts like this - thank you for promoting CNC in woodworking.


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## rwe2156

Got the popcorn popping, but I'll chime in.

Woodworking, like any other craft, involves art & craftsmanship (skill). You can be born with an artistic ability, but craftsmanship can only be mastered through study and practice. Even the most naturally gifted musician or painter must still practice his craft.

IMHO with CNC someone with zero ww'ing skills can create perfect projects and carvings. Yes, they deserve credit for a design (if its original) but its difficult to see how they can take credit for craftsmanship.

As a carver, I am proud of the carvings I do by hand. So long as the machine gets credit OK but a carving done by hand should always demand higher praise.

That being said, I believe there is a place in the ww'ing shop for CNC. Huge time saver for tasks such as making templates.


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## EricLew

I agree with rwe2156

I don't have a CNC, and therefore have never used one. Yes they do incredible work, but if I ever made something on one, I would never be able to be proud of it as my own work. I didn't make it, a computer did. People want to use them, no problem, but to me, it's like creating a document in Word with an fancy font, then printing it out and saying, "Look how nice my handwriting is"


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## DS

> IMHO with CNC someone with zero ww ing skills can create perfect projects and carvings.
> 
> - rwe2156


My experience differs on this point. Of course, there are pre-made designs one could buy and run on a machine and your statement could be quite true. However, if this carving is an apron panel on a very ornate side table, someone without woodworking experience would have a board that was machine carved, but not a table with appropriate joinery and proper accounting of wood movement et al that makes it a functional piece - a.k.a. woodworking.

That said, I find it easier to make ornate carvings by hand rather than by CNC. However, I have spent most of a week once programming the tool paths and running multiple test pieces trying to get things just right for a nice carving. PIA for that work IMHO.



> I don t have a CNC, and therefore have never used one. Yes they do incredible work, but if I ever made something on one, I would never be able to be proud of it as my own work. I didn t make it, a computer did.
> 
> - EricLew


EricLew, I have never seen a computer make or design anything by itself. I have never met a computer programmer that could design and build any woodworking project remotely functional without any prior woodworking experience.

There IS some element of woodworking required to make it happen.


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## MrRon

This thread has been asked before on this forum and the consensus then, appeared to be yes! CNC is woodworking. FYI, I just came across a portable CNC machine called "Handibot". https://handibot.com/handibot.php. It is a bit pricey @ $2895, but it will work with non ferrous metals like aluminum and of course wood. This may be the beginning of new CNC tools for woodworkers and other crafts people. I have been looking for a tool such as this to work with aluminum, but alas, it is somewhat out of my budget range. Hopefully, prices will drop as more similar machines hit the market. I suspect China will soon have them on the market.


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## JoeLyddon

IMHO, YES!

If it is doing anything with wood, it is woodworking.


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## MT_Stringer

The CNC is opening up a whole new world for me. I have done my share of woodworking projects, and the fever struck me hard. Now I have more ideas than I can shake a stick at! And my wife is adding to my idea list daily! 

So, yeah it is woodworking. Somebody has to prepare the material if wood is being used. And finish it after the job is done. And being a little bit computer savvy, learning the CAM software (V-Carve Pro) hasn't been too difficult. That was what had me skeered from the git-go.

Needless to say, I have a long way to go.

Note: I figured out a couple of designs that will cut the dadoes and shelf pin holes in the cabinet sides for 13 kitchen cabinets I am building! I will pre-cut the material to the finished sizes and the CNC will do the rest while I work on something else…or just stand there and watch it work!!! 

So here are a couple of examples I could have never done without the CNC.

Plaque for a heart disease surgery survivor as requested by her husband when he saw my new toy.









Donation to a benefit for my wife's cousin. Sadly, he passed before the benefit, but there was a huge turnout and this donation helped. There was a lot of interest.

Jack Daniels sign.


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## HorizontalMike

*IS TYPING ACTUALLY CREATIVE WRITING?*

Hmm… ;-)


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## Texcaster

All the major contemporary guitar factories are now CNC based. Entry level instruments have never been better, at a time when amateur and boutique building have never been more popular, with many skilled makers. An acoustic instrument's top is the most important tone/response component. An optimum balance between timber species, individual top thicknesses, and bracing dimensions is, at the moment, a human activity in the custom shop. The line instruments are all carved to a mean. Play 10 identical line instruments and one will stand out from the rest as optimum. Will the day come when a machine can successfully evaluate the tap tone/voice of each top? Probably. This won't stop passionate amateurs from building, top boutique builders will most likely still hand voice and continue 
to have a small share of the top end.


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## MadMark

If all you do is download & carve, that is *not* ww'ing.

If you draw it originally and pass it to the CNC that *is* ww'ing.

CNC can do a lot but not everything. CNC can be a central part of a project and still need hand work (with or without power) to be complete.

I use laser CNC all the time but the projects are 'hand' maid.

M


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## woodbutcherbynight

> *IS TYPING ACTUALLY CREATIVE WRITING?*
> 
> Hmm… ;-)
> 
> - HorizontalMike


ROFLMAO, good one


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## Unknowncraftsman

Some of the woodworking competitions out here have banned CNC projects so they are not compared to regular woodworking.
And I agree with it.


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## Desert_Woodworker

As stated before, I am pro CNC. I hope to encourage other to the marvels of this machine used in WW. Let's do a comparison woodworking and astronomy -
Router table deluxe version and CNC Both do tasks in wood; both can do woodworking.
Telescope for astronomy- the first one uses manual locations and setup of the scope and the second one a computer aided star locator and positioning of the scope to see the area. 
The comparison is that the CNC and the new fangled telescope are not just plug and play tools. A new learning curve (your time) is needed to achieve your results.
Therefore, not to call a CNC a woodworking tool could be said, of the new electronic computerized telescope is not an astronomy tool.


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## Desert_Woodworker

> The CNC is opening up a whole new world for me. I have done my share of woodworking projects, and the fever struck me hard. Now I have more ideas than I can shake a stick at! And my wife is adding to my idea list daily!
> 
> So, yeah it is woodworking. Somebody has to prepare the material if wood is being used. And finish it after the job is done. And being a little bit computer savvy, learning the CAM software (V-Carve Pro) hasn t been too difficult. That was what had me skeered from the git-go.
> 
> Needless to say, I have a long way to go.
> 
> Note: I figured out a couple of designs that will cut the dadoes and shelf pin holes in the cabinet sides for 13 kitchen cabinets I am building! I will pre-cut the material to the finished sizes and the CNC will do the rest while I work on something else…or just stand there and watch it work!!!
> 
> So here are a couple of examples I could have never done without the CNC.
> 
> Plaque for a heart disease surgery survivor as requested by her husband when he saw my new toy.
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> Donation to a benefit for my wife s cousin. Sadly, he passed before the benefit, but there was a huge turnout and this donation helped. There was a lot of interest.
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> Jack Daniels sign.
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> - MT_Stringer


Excellent job on the lettering with the various fonts, kerning of the letters, fit, finish and the quality - job well done 
As an aside, I do not believe that the nay Sayers, understand what it actually takes to create something like your projects. For instance, first you type the letters on the computer screen and what happens next- you apply your CAD design knowledge to accomplish it. No push and play. 
Best to you


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## Tony_S

> I hired people from both schools. I hired CAD artists and taught them woodworking and I hired woodworkers and taught them CAD/CAM. In all cases, those who knew woodworking first were more successful than those who knew nothing of woodworking but were computer geniuses.
> - DS


x100
There is a MASSIVE difference between a simple operator, a designer/operator and an experienced woodworker/designer/operator, particularly in a custom environment.
Any bozo can load sheet goods onto a cnc and cut plywood stair treads all day long…not even remotely woodworking.
If I need custom designed, one of, $800.00 (or more)newel posts milled on the cnc….the guy above will be pushing broom while a 'woodworker' programs/operates, otherwise I'll end up with a pile of junk.

The naysayers need to spend a week in a custom cnc shop environment….without a doubt you'd change your minds.


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## JoeLyddon

> *IS TYPING ACTUALLY CREATIVE WRITING?*
> 
> Hmm… ;-)
> 
> - HorizontalMike


Mike, you added the word "Creative", conditioning "writing"...
In this case & question, "woodworking" is not conditioned… assuming all woodworking…

If your question had been "Is typing considered to be writing", then, of course typing is just a mechanized way of writing. BUT, when you add "Creative" writing, it changes the whole question.

Like "Is using a CNC machine, Creative hierloom furniture Woodworking?" ... Not quite the same.

Using a CNC on wood is woodworking (good or bad woodworking).
Using a typewriter to write is writing (good or bad writing)
Using a typewriter to write is NOT necessarily *Creative *writing.

Just imho… LOL


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## 000

> Any bozo can load sheet goods onto a cnc and cut plywood stair treads all day long…
> 
> - Tony_S


I resemble that remark! uh, ....Are you hiring?


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## DrDirt

If you put the CNC carvings of a woodland scene on the headboard of a bed… do you still say "Hand Crafted"?

I really like Scott Grove's woodworker and designer in his TedX talk on exactly this subject (8 minutes).





He uses examples like laser cut marquetry? Do/Should you tell people that you didn't cut it out by hand. Does it matter? does the customer care?

If the machine cuts out all the parts, and you assemble it… is that 'hand - made'?

If you make the original, then scan it in and have it mass produced… what is it then?

If you use a dovetail jig, rather than 'hand cut' dovetails…. what counts as craft?

Still all woodworking. Scott talks "tradition craftsman" and "autocrafter".


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## Desert_Woodworker

Dr Dirt- on the otherhand watch Andrew Pitts furniture maker, he shows his product and they speak for themselves. Fine Woodworking! end of story. Should the craftsman disclose what the percentage of his project consists of CNC, the table saw used, dovetails- hand cut or machined; similar to the auto industry part contents. 
Thanks for the video- he talks about himself as a craftsman who uses his hands. Guess what I use my hands in all of my aspects of my work. From hadling the sheet goods, cutting them on a panel saw and placing them on the CNC to finishing. Scott uses his hands on his power carver but what causes his hands to move the grinder. Answer his brain. Compared myself; I use my hands and brain with the software-(CAD) then transfer to knowledge to the machine (CAM). If our brain is experienced and is functing properly the results are a success. Any goof up on the machine, in my case comes from my "brain"Good or Bad" 
here's an aside- Is Sketch up considered a woodworking tool?


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## DS

When we think of the literary classics, do we remember if the manuscript was handwritten, typed, or word processed?
Not really. We remember the content of the story above all else. (a.k.a. Creative Writing)

A fine piece of furniture will be appreciated more for what it is than which particular tools were used to arrive at that fine piece.

I use the qualifier "fine" to eliminate mass produced junk from that analogy, fyi.
BTW, I've seen both fine furniture and mass produced junk produced on the same machines, so, the machine itself is not the differentiation, per se'. More, it is about the creative influence of the woodworker using the machine, I think.

Now, how you represent the end product, e.g. "hand made", etc, is an entirely different question, IMHO.


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## ArtMann

This issue reminds me of the Amish people. They chose an arbitrary point in time, an arbitrary lifestyle and an arbitrary level of technology and defined that as the ideal way to live. It seems that some woodworkers are doing something similar with their definition of woodworking.


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## Desert_Woodworker

> This issue reminds me of the Amish people. They chose an arbitrary point in time, an arbitrary lifestyle and an arbitrary level of technology and defined that as the ideal way to live. It seems that some woodworkers are doing something similar with their definition of woodworking.
> 
> - ArtMann


Yes but- Even the Amish…. You bring up good point of Amish woodworkers as a lot of people see them as "handcrafted purists" but there is more to the story- 
Here is an example how things change
"Because Amish beliefs prevent the use of electricity, many woodworking tools in Amish shops are powered by hydraulic and pneumatic power that is run on diesel compressors. Most communities permit some technology, and allowances can be made in the case of woodworking, as the craft often supports multiple families within the community."
Also should someone want to research more- read about how some secretly work with second parties to sell authentic stuff on the internet. 
Just saying,


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## Tootles

No, CNC is not woodworking.

CNC is a tool.

Making something out of wood using a CNC is woodworking. You were not expecting me to say that, were you?

It is like the debate between those who only use hand tools compared to those who only use machines. neither are considering efficiency as a factor. I frequently cut large boards with a hand saw (rough cuts) because it is too much effort to set up the board to cut it with a circular saw. I often chamfer wood by hand because it is quicker than setting up the router table. I use machine sanders for the bulk of my sanding and there are things that I can do on my table saw that I would hate to do by hand.

I have a job on the go at the moment where a CNC would be a wonderful thing to have. As it is, I am going to have to do the work with a hand-held router and a jig that I still need to make - and then I will throw away. that's inefficient.

Perhaps I can sum it up this way, which is not very different to what Horizontal Mike was getting at. There are tools and there are skills. It is the skills applied at using the tools to make a wooden product that makes it woodworking.


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## Desert_Woodworker

T- " Making something out of wood using a CNC is woodworking. You were not expecting me to say that, were you?" Nope! 
Next! "I have a job on the go at the moment where a CNC would be a wonderful thing to have. As it is, I am going to have to do the work with a hand-held router and a jig that I still need to make - and then I will throw away. That's inefficient." 
I would not expect someone in your situation to "instantly" add a CNC. In the states we have jobbers and fabricators who offer "outsourcing" CNC services, which are similar to door and drawer suppliers. 
Your comparison to H Mike? I don't understand the correlation, with your ending point.
Just saying,


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## oldnovice

In my humble opinion, true woodworking does *not* invole any power tools!


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## Desert_Woodworker

> Its not woodworking unless you rip the tree out of the ground with your bare hands.
> 
> - gargey





> In my humble opinion, true woodworking does *not* invole any power tools!
> 
> - oldnovice


You guys could right! The beaver use his teeth to create wooden structures….


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## HorizontalMike

> *IS TYPING ACTUALLY CREATIVE WRITING?*
> Hmm… ;-)
> - HorizontalMike
> 
> Mike, you added the word "Creative", conditioning "writing"...
> In this case & question, "woodworking" is not conditioned… assuming all woodworking…
> If your question had been "Is typing considered to be writing", then, of course typing is just a mechanized way of writing. BUT, when you add "Creative" writing, it changes the whole question.
> Like "Is using a CNC machine, Creative hierloom furniture Woodworking?" ... Not quite the same.
> Using a CNC on wood is woodworking (good or bad woodworking).
> Using a typewriter to write is writing (good or bad writing)
> Using a typewriter to write is NOT necessarily *Creative *writing.
> Just imho… LOL
> - Joe Lyddon


Hey Joe, I'm glad you caught my "conditioner" use, as you put it. It was/is meant to spark conversation with/of those who constantly think that woodworking itself, must be "inspired" or "creative" just in order to qualify as *WOODWORKING*.

Of course we know that:

Hand-tool woodworking *CAN* BE "INSPIRED" or "CREATIVE"


Power-tool woodworking *CAN* BE "INSPIRED" or "CREATIVE"

HOWEVER, that does not mean either of the above actually is, could be, or is not. And the same can be said of CNC woodworking. So Joe, we are on the same page here and in agreement. **


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## rwe2156

I think the question is really "Is CNC craftsmanship?" It depends on how you define it. I define it as skill + artistic ability.

Its quite simple. If you do a carving and use a CNC its not hand carved, period end of debate. If you don't give a disclaimer to that effect, then you are falsely taking credit for a skill you may not possess. And BTW saying "I did it on a CNC" is not really truthful is it? More accurately "it was done on a CNC."

So what about using a machine to punch out mortises or make tenons? Yes, you're using a machine in lieu of a hand skill, so can you still say it was "handmade". Yes because it is not a factory. Kind of like "made in the USA" vs. "assembled in the USA".

But where's the artistry in a mortise?

What worries me the most is that CNC and computers do not further one's skills and skills cannot be passed on to the next generation.


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## DS

> Its quite simple. If you do a carving and use a CNC its not hand carved, period end of debate. If you don t give a disclaimer to that effect, then you are falsely taking credit for a skill you may not possess. And BTW saying "I did it on a CNC" is not really truthful is it? More accurately "it was done on a CNC."
> 
> - rwe2156


I'm not sure why "taking credit" is even important. 
We service a very particular clientelle at the very high end of our market. We offer pretty much everything under the sun woodworking-wise. We sell dovetail drawers on nearly every job, but it is extremely rare to get a request for "hand cut" dovetails instead of machine cut dovetails.

Only in a few cases of reproduction furniture do we hand cut dovetails. To the other 99.9% of clients, they don't care. In fact, they seem to prefer the perfection over the handmade imperfection. (Stainless steel drawers seem to be popular with the "in" crowd right now)

There is no disclaimer anywhere that says "our dovetails are made on a CNC dovetailer" (which they are) and we don't claim that they are hand made either. They simply look through our showroom, see our various drawer options and go, "Ooh, I really like that one right there" and done. (or words to that effect) ;-)


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## DS

> No, CNC is not woodworking.
> 
> CNC is a tool.
> 
> - Tootles


Yes, Tootles wins the prize!

The ignorance in the question was left intentionally. I was quoting a fairly well known (semi-celebrity) woodworker from this site who should have known better than to phrase it that way. It was his comments that sparked my interest in this discussion.

Obviously the machine is the tool and not the woodworking.


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## wormil

Woodworking is working with wood. I think the OP meant"craftsmanship."


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## DrDirt

If you 3D print a faberge egg… are you an artist?

I imagine as 3-d printing is moving to actually printing flesh… we will get to a point that we can "print Walnut" When we can 3-d pring a jewelry box

I don't believe you need to be Roy Underhill to be a craftsman.

But at some point, it seems you cross a line, where you are not really in control of the TOOLS… the tool is now doing the work, with little input from the user. A lot of CNC is point and click, it is not as though many are spending days writing computer code.

I think the fact that this thread exists shows that we all struggle, some defensively, but I believe we see the problem to varying degrees with how automation and craft merge. The product that comes out, do you go sell in your tent at the Central Pennsylvania festival of the Arts in July?

If you have two tables at a show, one of these CNC made… one hand carved with a chip carving knife… should the price be different? Should the sign with the price tag mention anything about method?

or should they both just say 'Carved Jewelry box $175


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## JoeLyddon

> No, CNC is not woodworking.
> 
> CNC is a tool.
> 
> - Tootles
> 
> Yes, Tootles wins the prize!
> 
> The ignorance in the question was left intentionally. I was quoting a fairly well known (semi-celebrity) woodworker from this site who should have known better than to phrase it that way. It was his comments that sparked my interest in this discussion.
> 
> Obviously the machine is the tool and not the woodworking.
> 
> - DS


YES!!

Now, we enter another area of the Craft…
If one shows real Skill in using the tools, he might be said to be a Craftsman.
If one does NOT know how to Skillfully use the tools, he might be said to be a Hack / Butcher.
One can be BOTH types and STILL be called a Woodworker; therefore, anything he does with wood could be called Woodworking… no matter how skillful he is.

CNC requires a skill of writing a program, or interfacing with a program, that has definite bearings on the quality of the end product… No matter how good/bad the result is, it could still be called Woodworking… being a Craftsman or a Hack/Butcher.


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## bigblockyeti

Is NASCAR racing a sport or a skill?


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## bonesbr549

> If you put the CNC carvings of a woodland scene on the headboard of a bed… do you still say "Hand Crafted"?
> 
> I really like Scott Grove s woodworker and designer in his TedX talk on exactly this subject (8 minutes).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He uses examples like laser cut marquetry? Do/Should you tell people that you didn t cut it out by hand. Does it matter? does the customer care?
> 
> If the machine cuts out all the parts, and you assemble it… is that hand - made ?
> 
> If you make the original, then scan it in and have it mass produced… what is it then?
> 
> If you use a dovetail jig, rather than hand cut dovetails…. what counts as craft?
> 
> Still all woodworking. Scott talks "tradition craftsman" and "autocrafter".
> 
> - DrDirt


I went to the Martin Guitar factory in PA and took the tour, and they had a dandy of a cnc cutting the tops and back's out.

I'd dare someone to go take that tour and tell those folks they not craftsmen.

I find the folks that poo poo cnc don't know much about it. I'm a computer guy from the days of punched cards, and can tell you it's not just "PUSHING A BUTTON".

When I started thought it would be easy. The past year was an intro to reality. It takes creativity and skill to make something whether with a hand saw tablesaw or router or CNC.

as the old saying says when you are a carpenter and your only tool is a hammer, all problems are nails.


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## JoeLyddon

> Is NASCAR racing a sport or a skill?
> 
> - bigblockyeti


BOTH… (?)


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## DS

I can just imagine the conversation 20 years from now.

Guy A; "Are holographic cabinets woodworking?" 
Guy B; "If it ain't done on a 3D printer, it ain't woodworking!"

LOL!


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## MrRon

My definition of "woodworking" is: "Any time a tool creates a feature on a piece of wood, that is woodworking". That is a very basic definition, but from the beginning of civilization, tools became more sophisticated, evolving into the computerized tools of today. Nothing has changed; a tool is still a tool, wood is still wood and a human has to operate the tool. Now if you are comparing a "traditional" woodworker to a machine oriented woodworker, there is a difference. Roy Underhill would probably condemn CNC as a work of the devil and Norm Abram would consider it a blessing. Now compare the latest, 3D printing. Although not a woodworking tool, it does create something from nothing. It does require material and an operator. The operator is combined with a computer program. The creativity comes from the mind of the operator converting, with the aid of software, an object from raw material (plastic or metal). In this case, I would not consider it woodworking as no wood is involved.


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## JackDuren

As long as the goal can be reach machine or hand its the same…


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## EricLew

I think there are 2 different debates going on here.

If you use a CNC on wood, it is by definition, woodworking.

If you are running a production shop, and need to churn out quantity, of course you will use a CNC, because you need to produce numbers, meet quality control, and deadlines.

I think the majority of people who are not fans, (like me) are not running a business, or do not produce high volume. They are people who do this as a hobby, full or part time, and don't see the justification for a CNC. We make things for ourselves, family and friends, people that we see on an ongoing basis. If you have a business and sell to clients, the product goes out, and I assume you never see them again.

The picture of the carved jewelry box above posted by DrDirt is perfect example. If I made that on a CNC and gave it to someone, I would never be able to say, "I made this for you" because, *to me*, that implies I hand carved it. I make some Keepsake boxes with 1/8 inch finger joints that I cut on my tablesaw with a jig, if I made those on a CNC, I just wouldn't be as personally proud of the work.

That is just my opinion, for me. Anyone else who wants to use a CNC, enjoy

One question though…. I'm guessing everyone on here was a woodworker before they had a CNC. If there was a different model that cut marble, would you instantly be a Sculptor?


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## JackDuren

> I think there are 2 different debates going on here.
> 
> If you use a CNC on wood, it is by definition, woodworking.
> 
> If you are running a production shop, and need to churn out quantity, of course you will use a CNC, because you need to produce numbers, meet quality control, and deadlines.
> 
> I think the majority of people who are not fans, (like me) are not running a business, or do not produce high volume. They are people who do this as a hobby, full or part time, and don t see the justification for a CNC. We make things for ourselves, family and friends, people that we see on an ongoing basis. If you have a business and sell to clients, the product goes out, and I assume you never see them again.
> 
> The picture of the carved jewelry box above posted by DrDirt is perfect example. If I made that on a CNC and gave it to someone, I would never be able to say, "I made this for you" because, *to me*, that implies I hand carved it. I make some Keepsake boxes with 1/8 inch finger joints that I cut on my tablesaw with a jig, if I made those on a CNC, I just wouldn t be as personally proud of the work.
> 
> That is just my opinion, for me. Anyone else who wants to use a CNC, enjoy
> 
> One question though…. I m guessing everyone on here was a woodworker before they had a CNC. If there was a different model that cut marble, would you instantly be a Sculptor?
> 
> - EricLew


You still have to assemble and finish it correct?


----------



## ArtMann

I'm from the stone age and I think using bronze tools isn't woodworking.


----------



## Desert_Woodworker

Vetric just released - Aspire 9

Sports- NASCAR here's one for the CNC
Triad CNC, a new manufacturing division of Triad Racing Technologies, will adorn the #96 Gaunt Brothers Racing Toyota Camry driven by D.J. Kennington in the Monster Energy NASCAR Cup Series race at Talladega Superspeedway on May 7.

Triad CNC is a full service CNC machine shop with capabilities of 3, 4 and 5-axis simultaneous CNC machining that will focus on servicing the current auto racing community and also expand into the aerospace and military industries.

"The NASCAR platform, and the Talladega race specifically, provides a launching pad for Triad CNC," said Triad general manager Mark Chambers. "Engineering excellence is at the forefront of both the sport and Triad's commitment to providing outstanding performance, service and reliability to our customers."


----------



## Desert_Woodworker

> I can just imagine the conversation 20 years from now.
> 
> Guy A; "Are holographic cabinets woodworking?"
> Guy B; "If it ain t done on a 3D printer, it ain t woodworking!"
> 
> LOL!
> 
> - DS


My version of A and B

Gender neutral person A: "Hey look over here in the Lumber Jocks archives- These guys are arguing over a CNC in woodworking (laff)

Gender male, in the process of change B: (laff) "A, do you remember, how that was (a word similar cool). By the way have you actually handled any wood lately?

Seriously, "woodworking"- My concern is with the passing the love and beauty of wood. There is a division in woodworking similar to the Protestant religion. Take note, they have one thing in common. Therefore, take time and post on the "LJ Projects" and encourage them.
Part 2 
A: says "Wow! that Desert_Woodworker makes some interesting stuff"
B: says (whatever you want to add, but make sure your dialog contributes to advancing our craft)


----------



## Underdog

> My definition of "woodworking" is: "Any time a tool creates a feature on a piece of wood, that is woodworking".
> ....... Now compare the latest, 3D printing. Although not a woodworking tool, it does create something from nothing. It does require material and an operator. The operator is combined with a computer program. The creativity comes from the mind of the operator converting, with the aid of software, an object from raw material (plastic or metal). In this case, I would not consider it woodworking as no wood is involved.
> 
> - MrRon


Actually 3D printing is still in its infancy, but they're starting to use everything from concrete to human tissue in them. And yes, even wood products are used in them.


----------



## DS

> The picture of the carved jewelry box above posted by DrDirt is perfect example. If I made that on a CNC and gave it to someone, I would never be able to say, "I made this for you" because, *to me*, that implies I hand carved it.
> 
> - EricLew


So, you are saying, if you made a jewelry box and some of the parts of the box were carved on with a CNC, you would present it and say, "Here is something my computer made for you" and you would be ashamed (not proud) of the box?

I feel that the perception of CNC as this tool of cheap mass production parts has somehow limited some people as to the new potential art forms that are opened up by using a CNC. We are doing things we never would have considered possible before CNC machines became more ubiquitous.



> If you 3D print a faberge egg… are you an artist?
> ...
> But at some point, it seems you cross a line, where you are not really in control of the TOOLS… the tool is now doing the work, with little input from the user. A lot of CNC is point and click, it is not as though many are spending days writing computer code.
> ...
> - DrDirt


BTW, if you can 3D model a faberge egg well enough to 3D print a convincing replica, I would be major impressed and not think one should be "not proud" of that accomplishment.

CNC tools* only *do precisely what the g-code tells it to do. (The woodworker, with software tools, usually creates the g-code.) If the code is garbage, the result is garbage. If the code is terrific, the result is terrific.

At no time are you NOT explicitly in control of the tools. (Way more so than with conventional tools) It does precisely what you told it to do. *There is no creative interpretation by the machine of what you meant it to do.* It goes to X, Y, Z coordinates at this feed rate, this spindle speed and with that tool, period. If you make a mistake in the code, you've made a mistake in the wood too.


----------



## DS

Here is a sample of g-code. This is about as simple of a program as it gets.
It's only job is to route a decorative groove on the face a 14" X 32" cabinet door. (A simple rectangle)

In the old days, we would use a router with a jig and quite often the operator would flub it and get unsteady lines, machine marks, and the occasional slip up. In those cases the door would usually need repaired or remade.

The groove enhances the appearance of the door. Something most of our competitors don't offer at all.
The CNC router makes this operation feasible when once it wasn't.

O0001
(R660101N)
N1 G00 G17 G20 G40 G49 G80 G90 G90.1
N2 G61
N3 G54
N5 G00 G49 Z0
N6 M05
(Tool: 1/8 V GROOVE)
N7 T4 M06
N8 M03 S12000
N9 G43 H4 Z1.1125
N10 G0 X14. Y18.75
N11 Z1.0625
N12 G1 Y18. Z0.6875 F100
N13 Y4. F300
N14 X4.
N15 Y32.
N16 X14.
N17 Y18.
N18 Y17.88
N19 Y17.13 Z1.0625
N20 G0 Z1.1125
N22 G00 G49 Z0
N23 M05
N48 M08
N49 G00 G53 X24.0000 Y99.0 M05
N50 M30

This program was ran once then discarded.

The groove was hand distressed to appear hand carved.


----------



## ArtMann

It is no use. For the most part, critics of CNC technology are completely unaware of what it takes to use this tool and are committed to remaining that way. They will never see that it takes just as much skill and creativity to create beautiful things with this tool as any other. They will never see a CNC router as anything other than a 3-D copy machine.

This attitude is no different than that of people who think that "real" woodworking must be done with hand tools.


----------



## EricLew

> So, you are saying, if you made a jewelry box and some of the parts of the box were carved on with a CNC, you would present it and say, "Here is something my computer made for you" and you would be ashamed (not proud) of the box?
> 
> - DS


Well, that wouldn't happen because I don't have a CNC, and don't plan on having one. But if I did and gave it to someone, when they raved about how incredible it is, I would tell them it was made on a CNC and explain what that is. I would never let them think I made it by hand.

Again, this is *Just Me*. I have no issue with people that use CNCs, I don't think they should be outlawed, or automatically carve "Made on a CNC", or are ruining woodworking…. To each his own.

Based on just this thread, it seems that people that like and use CNCs are upset, or annoyed, by people that don't like them. I don't know why, there is no right or wrong here, it's just different opinions. Nothing, at least nothing I am contributing, is personal.


----------



## ssnvet

> The real innovation has come with software. CNC woodworking used to be very inflexible. An engineer would take a month to manually write g-code and then that code was used to produce thousands of identical parts.
> DS


I still make everyone of my guys write at least one simple G-Code program during their training, as it helps them understand what the software is doing for them, and how it can screw them if they're not careful.

Hogging out with a rougher bit and then making finish passes to the line with a finish bit?

When to climb cut to get a better finish (with the spindle and the work piece both under positive control, this is most always safe)?

And then we have tooling decisions…

When to use spiral bits (up or down)? when to use compression bits? when to use straight flutes? when switch to a peck drilling cycle with a drill bit? How many passes to take? what % step over to use when routing a pocket?

... and then you get into true 3D contour cutting and the knowledge base and decision making goes up by another order of magnitude. And then you can go hog wild with a 4th axis and do Corinthian columns.

There is a whole heck of a lot of "woodworking" that goes on with a CNC that most woodworkers might never even get exposed to.


----------



## MrRon

> Vetric just released - Aspire 9
> 
> Sports- NASCAR here s one for the CNC
> Triad CNC, a new manufacturing division of Triad Racing Technologies, will adorn the #96 Gaunt Brothers Racing Toyota Camry driven by D.J. Kennington in the Monster Energy NASCAR Cup Series race at Talladega Superspeedway on May 7.
> Triad CNC is a full service CNC machine shop with capabilities of 3, 4 and 5-axis simultaneous CNC machining that will focus on servicing the current auto racing community and also expand into the aerospace and military industries.
> 
> "The NASCAR platform, and the Talladega race specifically, provides a launching pad for Triad CNC," said Triad general manager Mark Chambers. "Engineering excellence is at the forefront of both the sport and Triad s commitment to providing outstanding performance, service and reliability to our customers."
> 
> - Desert_Woodworker


I wonder when NASCAR will go driverless cars?


----------



## DS

> Well, that wouldn t happen because I don t have a CNC, and don t plan on having one. But if I did and gave it to someone, when they raved about how incredible it is, I would tell them it was made on a CNC and explain what that is. I would never let them think I made it by hand.
> 
> - EricLew


EricLew; Several times now, you have indicated that there is some deception involved when using a CNC to do tasks traditionally done by hand. In my experience, that doesn't happen much, if at all. (Surely someone, somewhere is misleading people, or you wouldn't feel that way)

In our shop, we give all new prospective clients tours of the facility. We *show off* the machinery as well as the final products. We are *not ashamed* of using state-of-the-art tools to produce the highest quality products out there. In fact, it is touted as a *positive* thing.

For me, it is frustrating when people discount the entire idea of CNC as not actual woodworking " 'cuz you just pressed a button". 
CNC machining is merely one portion of the process that makes the final product.

Hopefully, our discussions will help enlighten ourselves somewhat on both sides of the issue.


----------



## MrUnix

> you have indicated that there is some deception involved when using a CNC to do tasks traditionally done by hand. In my experience, that doesn't happen much, if at all.


But… in a previous post, you said:



> The groove was hand distressed to *appear* hand carved.


Curious position.

Cheers,
Brad


----------



## rwe2156

> Its quite simple. If you do a carving and use a CNC its not hand carved, period end of debate. If you don t give a disclaimer to that effect, then you are falsely taking credit for a skill you may not possess. And BTW saying "I did it on a CNC" is not really truthful is it? More accurately "it was done on a CNC."
> 
> - rwe2156
> 
> I m not sure why "taking credit" is even important.
> We service a very particular clientelle at the very high end of our market. We offer pretty much everything under the sun woodworking-wise. We sell dovetail drawers on nearly every job, but it is extremely rare to get a request for "hand cut" dovetails instead of machine cut dovetails.
> 
> Only in a few cases of reproduction furniture do we hand cut dovetails. To the other 99.9% of clients, they don t care. In fact, they seem to prefer the perfection over the handmade imperfection. (Stainless steel drawers seem to be popular with the "in" crowd right now)
> 
> There is no disclaimer anywhere that says "our dovetails are made on a CNC dovetailer" (which they are) and we don t claim that they are hand made either. They simply look through our showroom, see our various drawer options and go, "Ooh, I really like that one right there" and done. (or words to that effect) ;-)
> 
> - DS


I was referring to carvings. Everything else you referred to is fine. If I had a production shop I'd be doing machine DT's too.

DrDirt makes my point. You don't sell it as a handcarved box. And if someone asks, you better tell them a machine did or you definitely ARE taking credit for a skill you did not use.

As I said in my previous post, CNC is ww'ing but it is not craftsmanship. Using a machine is fine if you are actually operating it. There is the potential for human error. Not so with CNC.

Its a personal thing. If I were building a bed with CNC carved bedboard, I would let the client know that in the description. I would be embarrassed if the client said, "Wow, you carved that?" when I didn't.


----------



## EricLew

DS

In my previous posts, I have never used any form of the word "deception". Nor have I used the word "ashamed". That was a word *you* theorized I would say. All I have said is, I would explain how it was made so there was no assumption I hand carved it.



> So, you are saying, if you made a jewelry box and some of the parts of the box were carved on with a CNC, you would present it and say, "Here is something my computer made for you" and you would be ashamed (not proud) of the box?
> 
> - DS


What I did say, and seems to be true is

"people that like and use CNCs are upset, or annoyed, by people that don't like them."

This is an endless debate, and seems to be a very Hot Button topic. Having already said all I have to say on this matter, I am done.


----------



## DS

> I agree with rwe2156
> 
> I don t have a CNC, and therefore have never used one. Yes they do incredible work, but if I ever made something on one, I would *never be able to be proud of it* as my own work. I didn t make it, a computer did. People want to use them, no problem, but to me, it s like creating a document in Word with an fancy font, then printing it out and saying, "Look how nice my handwriting is"
> 
> - EricLew


EricLew; here is where I heard you say "ashamed" (highlighted in bold above by me)

DISCLAIMER: An automated computer controlled spell checker was used to correct many of my numerous hand-made spelling errors in this post. (I will never be able to be proud of that - ashamed even.)
;-)
-----------------------------------------------



> you have indicated that there is some deception involved when using a CNC to do tasks traditionally done by hand. In my experience, that doesn't happen much, if at all.
> 
> But… in a previous post, you said:
> 
> The groove was hand distressed to *appear* hand carved.
> 
> Curious position.
> 
> Cheers,
> Brad
> 
> - MrUnix


Yes, even the reproduction furniture pieces with hand cut dovetails will use the CNC to mill most of the case goods that wouldn't make a visual difference to the piece.

*WE make no secret of it. We are not deceiving our clients.* 
They still want it to LOOK hand carved even if it isn't.

Now, what they tell their friends about the product I have no way of knowing.

EDIT: Much of our work ACTUALLY IS hand carved BTW.


----------



## ssnvet

Just as an aside note…. regarding the chip carved box that was shown earlier… I suspect that it would take longer to make one using a CNC than to carve it by hand.

First you have to model it… which takes quite a bit of time…. then you have to figure out what tools can produce the cuts and how… some may not be able to be accomplished using a rotating tool (i.e. unsymmetrical profile cuts). Then you have to generate your tool paths in the CAM software, and there are a lot of tool paths in that carving. Then you have to decide how to sequence the tool paths so that the walls are not made too thin to early in the process, where the cutting forces might damage them on subsequent passes on adjacent cuts.

The program for that carved box may well have up to 50,000 lines of G-code.

Then there are work-holding and fixturing concerns… It may well take a week of 8 hour shifts to make that little box on a CNC.

While I suspect an experienced chip carver (like Fancy Chip, here on Lumber Jocks) may be able to do it in less time than that.

Now if you wanted to make a hundred of them…. that's where the CNC pays off…. production quantities and/or standardized product lines with limited variables (kitchen cabs, etc…). These are where a CNC shines.

Custom artistic work like the bear carving shown early in the thread likely have hundreds of hours into them.

We live in a time of rapid technology development and society struggles to keep up. Few who didn't tinker with computers in high school make the transition… and that makes people feel threatened, even scared, and that's where all the intense emotion comes from.

My Dad was in the printing business and made the transition from light table layout to desktop publishing. He was was eager to learn new technology because he saw how much it could do for him. He had a computer in his home office before there was such a thing as DOS and was a life long learner. Yet as an award winning photographer, when he made the switch to digital photography he had to endure the scorn of all the purist who thought that digital was some type of blasphemy.

Less kind individuals would say things like "keep up or shut up" ... but I suspect that is because they too feel criticized and disparaged by the Luddites of the this modern age.

A little sympathy, empathy, kindness, mutual respect and common courtesy can go a long ways towards making this world a better place for everyone. Criticism and ill-informed judgments… now so much so.

Alvin Toffler tuned into this at the onset of the information and automation age, in his book Future Shock (1970), and management types sold a lot of books writing about how to deal with rapid change in books like Who Moved My Cheese (late 90s). These were both pretty good books.


----------



## DS

Matt, you are correct about the modelling process taking lots of time.

FYI, Vcarve Pro by Aspire has a canned cycle for the basic chip carve triangle. It uses a standard v-groove cutter (you select the angle in degrees) and then it figures the tool path from your CAD triangle. The tool is ramped from the corners down to the center of the triangle. It handles curvy "triangles" and odd shapes as well.

The REAL trick to that particular box is wrapping that cycle around a radius top. Though there are some advanced functions that make this possible, I don't really know what all is involved. (I don't actively use the software. Using the demo version, I walked through some of the online tutorials.)


----------



## Andybb

Yes. If we don't cut down the tree with an axe and use only hand tools to build something that means that none of us are woodworkers. That means that buying a live edge slab to build a table is not woodworking if it was cut and flattened by a saw and plane controlled by a computer. I would imagine that 99% of everything at the lumber mill is cut by computer controlled machines.

Seems to me to just be the evolution of a tool. I will never be able to hand cut dovetails like Paul Sellers nor do I plan on investing the time to learn. But after I use all of the other tools at my disposal to build something from scratch I don't think it takes away from the effort if I use a dovetail jig and router to make the drawers.



> Well, that wouldn t happen because I don t have a CNC, and don t plan on having one. But if I did and gave it to someone, when they raved about how incredible it is, I would tell them it was made on a CNC and explain what that is. I would never let them think I made it by hand.
> 
> - EricLew


Understood, but where do you draw the line? "I didn't round over that edge, I used a hand held CNC with an 1/8th inch roundover bit"


----------



## Desert_Woodworker

> CNC tools* only *do precisely what the g-code tells it to do. (The woodworker, with software tools, usually creates the g-code.) If the code is garbage, the result is garbage. If the code is terrific, the result is terrific.
> 
> At no time are you NOT explicitly in control of the tools. (Way more so than with conventional tools) It does precisely what you told it to do. *There is no creative interpretation by the machine of what you meant it to do.* It goes to X, Y, Z coordinates at this feed rate, this spindle speed and with that tool, period. If you make a mistake in the code, you ve made a mistake in the wood too.
> 
> - DS


Here are some of my mishaps with the CNC and occurred, in the CAD and CAM process. I am thankful for no injuries. Blame in these cases, fall on my incorrect design input and machine tooling setup. When I tell it to go and do something it does. This ain't a Saw Stop. 
MM nice post above.


----------



## AlaskaGuy

I had to go make another box of pop corn.


----------



## ssnvet

DS…

I'd love to get Aspire, but the 2D seat of Enroute we use at works meets 99% of our needs and I can't justify the expense.

With the chip carving, i was thinking that the profile of the hand cuts may not be perpendicular to the plane of the surface or may not be symmetrical, and that one might have to make passes with different bits. Cutting with any rotating tool limits one in very fundamental ways.

DW…
I have broken carbide cutters, sending them shooting across the shop on more than one occasion. Fortunately, I've never hit anyone and we now have our gantry router in a more remote area.


----------



## DS

Matt, sounds like your reasons for not having Aspire align with mine.

The tool used for "chip carving" is not a straight cutter. it is a v-groove cutter, 30, 45 or 60 degrees most commonly.

By going deeper into the material a wider cut is made. A triangle "Chip Carved" cut consists of three passes with the v-groove tool starting at one corner at the top of the board and ramping or diving down to the mathematical center of the triangle. The cut is repeated from each corner of the triangle making nice pointy corners all around.


----------



## Underdog

> Just as an aside note…. regarding the chip carved box that was shown earlier… I suspect that it would take longer to make one using a CNC than to carve it by hand.
> 
> - Mainiac Matt


Nope. At least not the chip carved part. You use a V-bit and engraving tool pathing. (That's what it's called in ArtCAM, Aspire and others may use a different term.) I'd estimate off the top of my head that the top of the box would only take a few minutes….. say about 20?


----------



## 280305

Yes, CNC is woodworking, as long as the program runs on a wooden computer. Below is the original TinkerToy computer built in 1978. It is now at the Computer History Museum in Mountain View, CA.


----------



## DS

Hmmm… a wooden CNC controller (computer).

Makes me wonder if the early water wheel/belt driven power tools had come up with some version of automated control, would we even be having this conversation?

*Now someone just HAS to do it! *

Maybe some version of the punch card rolls, like the old player pianos used - coupled with a water wheel/belt driven router, X, Y, Z, etc.

Fascinating indeed! Kind of a steam-punk CNC machine.


----------



## Desert_Woodworker

3d printing for wood has arrived-














Alaska do you make your popcorn on something like this-








or do you use a newer CNC version with GMO free corn?


----------



## AlaskaGuy

> 3d printing for wood has arrived-
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alaska do you make your popcorn on something like this-
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> or do you use a newer CNC version with GMO free corn?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Desert_Woodworker


I use a hot air popper. I get all the hot air I want for free off of LJ


----------



## 280305

> Hmmm… a wooden CNC controller (computer).
> 
> Makes me wonder if the early water wheel/belt driven power tools had come up with some version of automated control, would we even be having this conversation?
> 
> *Now someone just HAS to do it! *
> 
> Maybe some version of the punch card rolls, like the old player pianos used - coupled with a water wheel/belt driven router, X, Y, Z, etc.
> 
> Fascinating indeed! Kind of a steam-punk CNC machine.
> 
> - DS


The use of punched cards with looms is fascinating. Check out the many sites describing Jacquard's Loom. These used punched cards in the very early years of the 1800's!


----------



## Desert_Woodworker

Under dog- here is an art deco frame 24×12" picture frame 35 minutes machine time…..


----------



## DS

If I made an all wooden machine controlled by punch cards and powered by a water wheel, (no electricity), but, then I use a modern computer to punch all the cards for me ('cuz apparently I despise doing things myself by hand), is it still woodworking? LOL!

Mmmm… the popcorn is starting to smell gooood!


----------



## 280305

> If I made an all wooden machine controlled by punch cards and powered by a water wheel, (no electricity), but, then I use a modern computer to punch all the cards for me ( cuz apparently I despise doing things myself by hand), is it still woodworking? LOL!
> 
> Mmmm… the popcorn is starting to smell gooood!
> 
> - DS


I have the answer to your question, but some of my TinkerToy pieces are getting loose on my laptop. I need to get off the internet and work on this - it could take months.


----------



## oldnovice

This forum has taken a turn and caught me reminiscing deep into my history!

The first program I ever wrote was in Fortran (10 years before the first PLC by MODICON) and the last one I was an IEC 61131-3 compliant Allen Bradley PLC, Programmable Logic Controller, controlling a proprietary DNA printing and synthesizing system in real time.

Things really have chaged in programming and woodworking!


----------



## MT_Stringer

Punch card programming! Now that is something I haven't done in a loong time (1968)!


----------



## Desert_Woodworker

> If I made an all wooden machine controlled by punch cards and powered by a water wheel, (no electricity), but, then I use a modern computer to punch all the cards for me ( cuz apparently I despise doing things myself by hand), is it still woodworking? LOL!
> 
> Mmmm… the popcorn is starting to smell gooood!
> 
> - DS


DS Yes to it being woodworking, BUT could your product be comparable to the products that you are producing today, with technology? If so, please post. Also, what do you use for popping your popcorn?
Alaska, you are correct! I did a test run with the LJ comments- Bingo.


----------



## JoeLyddon

The 1st program I wrote was in SPS for the IBM 1401, in about 1962, to print Name & address labels.
SPS - Symbolic Programming System.

I was "HOOKED"... from there, learned Autocoder, RPG, COBOL, FORTRAN, Assembly Language, Basic…
Taught FORTRAN & COBOL… all IBM and some PC.


----------



## Bluenote38

Lol - if I download a plan and make something it's not woodworking either. BUT if I design it myself it IS woodworking? Is it metalworking if I use my anvil and a gas forge? Or does it have to be coal? Or if I use a power hammer instead of banging it with muscle and blood? What happens when we get into additive manufacturing (3D printing) with wood particles in a glue matrix? (we could do this now if there was an interest in developing the techniques - great way to reuse all that sawdust). We don't nap flint to make arrows to hunt anymore either but it's still hunting. So "Yes Virginia" it really is woodworking and it will still be woodworking even when we learn to disassemble and reassemble wood molecule by molecule.


----------



## Bluenote38

> If I made an all wooden machine controlled by punch cards and powered by a water wheel, (no electricity), but, then I use a modern computer to punch all the cards for me ( cuz apparently I despise doing things myself by hand), is it still woodworking? LOL!
> 
> Mmmm… the popcorn is starting to smell gooood!
> 
> - DS
> 
> DS Yes to it being woodworking, BUT could your product be comparable to the products that you are producing today, with technology? If so, please post. Also, what do you use for popping your popcorn?
> Alaska, you are correct! I did a test run with the LJ comments- Bingo.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Desert_Woodworker


 Hey - I haven't seen one of those in a 100 years! Are you sure that's actually corn popping?


----------



## 280305

> Hey - I haven t seen one of those in a 100 years! Are you sure that s actually corn popping?
> 
> - Bluenote38


We have one just like that. It sounds like a 747 lifting off, but it still pops the corn.


----------



## jeffswildwood

Taking a slab of wood and letting the CNC draw on it….no. Building a beautiful box or other aspect of traditional wood working and using CNC to enhance it…..yes!


----------



## WAPY

wow, what a mess!
this is, in my opinion, a nonsense issue. This question involves so many aspects that it's almost impossible pretend a solution, or a sort of ultimate answer.
The CNC technology developed to eliminate "human imperfections"; no matter where we apply it, to metal or to wood working. It exployted the computer science where programmers instruct a machine to do something. BUT mankind took advantage of it, affording levels of perfection never achieved before. But that machine can only repeat the same programs and nothing esle !
On the other side there is the strife: do we work wood for earning money or for passion only?
I believe this is the main watershed to this issue; those who want make money certainly will approve time and effort savings granted by CNC. The amateurs will not, probably. I'm also sure that Antonio Torres, the best guitar maker ever existed, wouldn't accept a machine making guitars on his behalf, and even actually, industrial made guitars cannot reach the perfection and sound warmth of hand made guitars.
If we ask this same question to a famous professional wood carver, I bet he/she will answer that there is no way to loose creativity.
If a tool is driven and controlled by our hand, even a power tool, well I think we are on the woodworking side; if the tool works alone, even though we programmed it to do a very intricate pattern, I believe it's not .
So, are we wood workers or programmers? 
Let's see what the LJ's community says….


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## JAAune

The OP question is not all that important. Amateurs can just do whatever makes the hobby enjoyable. Pros do whatever allows them to provide what the customer wants for the best price.

In reality, most customers don't care how things are made. In fact, a search on google regarding the meaning of "handmade" indicates that a lot of people consider the word synonymous with "junk". This idea comes from the fact that a lot of handmade items often are inferior to similarly-priced commercially-produced counterparts.


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## DS

What I think is cool is this new technology has us thinking in a whole new way.

There are artists creating in this medium that would be doing something different otherwise.

A quick image search found a couple good examples.



















Could these have been made without any power tools at all? Sure. But they drew at least some of their inspiration because of the strengths of the new tool they used. (CNC)


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## cathode

> I think there are 2 different debates going on here.
> 
> If you use a CNC on wood, it is by definition, woodworking.
> 
> If you are running a production shop, and need to churn out quantity, of course you will use a CNC, because you need to produce numbers, meet quality control, and deadlines.
> 
> I think the majority of people who are not fans, (like me) are not running a business, or do not produce high volume. They are people who do this as a hobby, full or part time, and don t see the justification for a CNC. We make things for ourselves, family and friends, people that we see on an ongoing basis. If you have a business and sell to clients, the product goes out, and I assume you never see them again.
> 
> The picture of the carved jewelry box above posted by DrDirt is perfect example. If I made that on a CNC and gave it to someone, I would never be able to say, "I made this for you" because, *to me*, that implies I hand carved it. I make some Keepsake boxes with 1/8 inch finger joints that I cut on my tablesaw with a jig, if I made those on a CNC, I just wouldn t be as personally proud of the work.
> 
> That is just my opinion, for me. Anyone else who wants to use a CNC, enjoy
> 
> One question though…. I m guessing everyone on here was a woodworker before they had a CNC. If there was a different model that cut marble, would you instantly be a Sculptor?
> 
> - EricLew


I think one of the key takeaways here is that, most of the time, when someone that CRAFTS or MAKES an item for a friend or loved one, the item isn't the gift. The item is a manifestation or representation of the feelings that are being conveyed.

When someone BUYS an item, like a CNC-carved box, from a shop or a vendor, they define what that item means TO THEM. They don't care what the box meant to the person who created it, and thus they don't care how it was made.

The people that are staunchly opposed to CNC equipment have likely never sold to the general public. To them, giving someone a gift that was made mostly by a machine feels like cheating.


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## rwe2156

> I use a hot air popper. I get all the hot air I want for free off of LJ
> 
> - AlaskaGuy


At least you get it. You didn't say "I made popcorn".


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## bonesbr549

> The OP question is not all that important. Amateurs can just do whatever makes the hobby enjoyable. Pros do whatever allows them to provide what the customer wants for the best price.
> 
> In reality, most customers don t care how things are made. In fact, a search on google regarding the meaning of "handmade" indicates that a lot of people consider the word synonymous with "junk". This idea comes from the fact that a lot of handmade items often are inferior to similarly-priced commercially-produced counterparts.
> 
> - JAAune
> 
> Wish we had a like button  Cheers.


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## bonesbr549

I'm sorry if you don't use a Diston #8 to cut your lumber, you are not doing by hand and not woodworking! So there

http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/8page.html


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## MrRon

Is opening a can of beans "cooking"?


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## DS

I open cans of beans all the time and I put them in a pot with onions, green peppers, garlic, jalapeno, cilantro, lime juice, chili powder, ground pork, diced bacon and diced tomatoes (also from a can).

Admittedly, I DO call it "cooking", er, Mexican Chili.


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## ArtMann

Let me give you a real example. I make and sell this and many other trivet designs in solid walnut, cherry and maple.










It takes about 10 minutes to do the carving. I would guess it would take an artisan at least 10 times that long to hand carve one. Even though it takes a lot longer to mill the blank and finish the piece, I can still sell these to customers who are as happy with the price as I am. That would be impossible to do with hand carving (assuming I had the skill to do it) and make enough money to justify my efforts. My customers know exactly how they are made and they don't care. They would laugh at anyone who claimed I am not a woodworker. They are the people whose opinion matters to me.



> Just as an aside note…. regarding the chip carved box that was shown earlier… I suspect that it would take longer to make one using a CNC than to carve it by hand.
> 
> - Mainiac Matt


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## ArtMann

Here is another example. It was my first attempt at doing a V-carve inlay. Does anyone really believe this isn't real woodworking because the inlay was carved on a CNC router? The owner of this box certainly doesn't.


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## Desert_Woodworker

Art, I love your enthusiasm for the CNC. This forum has gone from "corn to beans". Your efforts, I appreciate it.


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## helluvawreck

I don't have a CNC machine but I wish I did. However, what I would use it for would be mostly for making signs. I believe this could allow me to make some extra money for my shop while doing other woodworking that I would enjoy more and would be more rewarding. While making a nice quality piece what is wrong with a CNC machine running in the background to help pay the light bill and all of the other overhead. A CNC machine can run by itself with just a small amount of attention if it is set up properly.

helluvawreck aka Charles
http://woodworkingexpo.wordpress.com


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## DS

I suppose, I will concede this point:



> Is opening a can of beans "cooking"?
> 
> - MrRon


It is still probably considered cooking, but shows a complete lack of creativity and imagination.

The same way that buying a canned program of an intricate scene, then running that code on a CNC using a basic wood blank, with nary a thought of any other woodworking process, shows a complete lack of creativity and imagination, but, is still technically woodworking.

I would have much more respect for someone as a woodworker who created the tool paths for the scene himself, (requires a creative skill set), who then took the resulting carved panel and made something else with it such as a serving tray, or night stand, etc.


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## AlaskaGuy

This is like the abortion issue, each side presidents their side of the debate and rarely does anyone change their mind. An life goes on as it always has.

I don't have a CNC but I'd like to. If someone told me that wasn't woodworking I'd just ignore them. I'm doing what make me happy.


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## MT_Stringer

There is so much that can be done with a CNC that can make a guy really happy. Signs and other engravings are just part of it. I am not learned enough to tackle the 3D stuff yet, but I am having fun designing signs. Some of this stuff I couldn't have done freehand or with a router table. And the folks were very appreciative of the gifts.


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## Desert_Woodworker

MT- "Some of this stuff I couldn't have done freehand or with a router table." Exactly


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## ArtMann

> The same way that buying a canned program of an intricate scene, then running that code on a CNC using a basic wood blank, with nary a thought of any other woodworking process, shows a complete lack of creativity and imagination, but, is still technically woodworking.


On this point, I agree completely. I have never bought or even cut a design from anyone else except by contract. My wife is a professional graphic artist and she creates all of our designs. Many of our products are designed for and unique to a single customer. I don't find scenes bought and reproduced straight from a 3-D clipart store to be very appealing.


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## DS

Perhaps, I view CNC Woodworking different than many. I think of computers handling the mundane repetitive tasks that we humans would rather not have to be bothered with. (Applies to most all applications and not just CNC).

So, for me, when I am designing a new piece, I can focus on the larger picture. I spend next to *ZERO* time trying to ensure I am getting square cuts, or my dadoes are the right depth or the dovetails fit nicely or I have the correct adjustable shelf hole spacing.

Rather, those details are ensured by the software and by the machine. (*Of course* the panels will be square, the dadoes will fit, the dovetails will be perfect as will the spacing and depth of my adjustable shelf holes)

An added benefit is that with a CNC, complex geometric shapes cut just as easily as rectangles. Tons of extra math, story sticks and templates are just eliminated.

I am then free to envision the larger scope of the project-Enabling my creativity to express a theme, or focus on specific design elements of the piece.

I don't really need to prove to myself that I can cut all these parts on my table saw. I spent the latter half of the 1980's doing just that very thing.

Also, I can get more done in less time without needing extra helpers in the mix.

If it is available to you, why wouldn't you have the CNC do the mundane boring work? 
(Didn't we used to just give that work to the "new guy" anyways?)


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## CherryWood

Is CNC woodworking?
Is CNC craftsmanship?
Is CNC taking away jobs?

Hmmmmmm - I am a bit surprised that this is still an issue.

It's a tool, just like a table saw, or band saw, or any other tool.

What the heck is Craftsmanship anyway? What is woodworking?

Is using a hand held electron burning PC 690 router Woodworking? Is it craftsmanship? No, it's a tool and the level of work that the operator does with the tool is what is under consideration.

I have been CNC for nearly 4 decades, professionally, metal cutting. I have been CNC 10+ years in my home shop making signs and crafts that I sell and enjoy. I also use hand planes, and had training by an old gent that apprenticed in England to teach me how to fettle and fine tune the tool. I like hand tools and use them often. I like finishing and often buff my finishes. I like dyes, and painting, and glazes.

CNC? There is nothing wrong with that tool, I use it all the time as well as all mu other tools.

Just like ANY other tool, it's all in how it's used.


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## JoeLyddon

> Is CNC woodworking?
> Is CNC craftsmanship?
> Is CNC taking away jobs?
> 
> Hmmmmmm - I am a bit surprised that this is still an issue.
> 
> It s a tool, just like a table saw, or band saw, or any other tool.
> 
> What the heck is Craftsmanship anyway? What is woodworking?
> 
> Is using a hand held electron burning PC 690 router Woodworking? Is it craftsmanship? No, it s a tool and the level of work that the operator does with the tool is what is under consideration.
> 
> I have been CNC for nearly 4 decades, professionally, metal cutting. I have been CNC 10+ years in my home shop making signs and crafts that I sell and enjoy. I also use hand planes, and had training by an old gent that apprenticed in England to teach me how to fettle and fine tune the tool. I like hand tools and use them often. I like finishing and often buff my finishes. I like dyes, and painting, and glazes.
> 
> CNC? There is nothing wrong with that tool, I use it all the time as well as all mu other tools.
> 
> Just like ANY other tool, it s all in how it s used.
> 
> - CherryWood


*AMEN!*


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## oldnovice

I can't wait until someone posts a 3D printed wood project with the wood resins that are available!


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## Desert_Woodworker

I have seen some of the 3d printed with resin not for me as of yet…
Here is a MDF cnc 3d model with metal coatings and patina


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## LesB

This discussion is totally subjective so there is no specific answer.
There are those who think any tool used on wood that was made after about 1800 (before power tools) is not "real" wood working. 
I think it is all about the satisfaction you set from what ever process you use to create a wood artifact.


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## MrRon

CNC is just another tool, like a chisel, plane, saw, etc. They ALL require skill to use, but the result is the same, a piece of wood that has been worked by a ( )tool; you fill in the blank.


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