# Dust Collector Duct Installation Opinions requested (I have photos!)



## Rayne (Mar 9, 2014)

Good Evening Everyone,
I would like to request some opinions about my pending dust collection duct install setup. I think this will work fine, but it doesn't hurt to get second opinions. Sorry for the crude overlay, but I really just want to get the install started. If anyone could critique my design and see if I'll run into any issues, I would appreciate the feedback. I'm hoping I get enough feedback to either alter my design or begin the install tomorrow. Thank you for the help in advance.

ShopFox 1.5 HP Dust Collector
Super Dust Deputy
Garage: 20' x 20'
All Materials will be 26 GA - 5" pipe, fittings, wyes, etc. All 90's will be a long 90 by connecting 2 regular 90's at 45 each for optimal flow, except the connection from the dust collector to the Cyclone. I'll have blast gates and reducers towards the tools, so no worries on that part.

Is there any issue connecting the Dust Collector to my cyclone in this fashion? 2 - 90 on top of Cyclone adjusted to an angle so a straight pipe will connect directly to the dust collector where it will also have a 90.









Initial Run with a wye to cover Router table & Miter Saw while the rest of the tools for the other.









Wye in the ceiling from the Cyclone. One end will break off towards the Table Saw, while the straight end will continue to Planer and Jointer.









Straight pipes going to other end of garage towards Jointer and Planer.









Final Run to Planer and Jointer ~30' total run, maybe 35'.









From the ceiling Wye heading towards the Table Saw. ~20' total run.









Detail run to Miter saw and Router Table


----------



## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

If you run 5" what you plan should work well. Every turn will add resistance, but having 5" will still allow adequate airflow for that DC. just 2 points of input from me: good luck with miter saw, I doubt that will catch any dust from it at all. Most folks who have some success build a big honking hood behind it and pull all the air they can (even that seems iffy). I gave up on mine, it now sits in the shed for home improvement stuff. 2nd, and maybe more important: 5" will carry plenty of air (maybe to much) for that collector. But if you choke it down much at the tools, you get the air flow the choke point allows. What I'm suggesting is you may not be moving enough air through the chokr point to keep chips suspended in the stream. Try it and see how it works, but you may have to increase the port size on your tools wherever possible. I'm not sure why tools still come with mostly inadequate ports, someday maybe the manufacturers will get it right. All this, of course, is just my opinion.


----------



## Kentuk55 (Sep 21, 2010)

First, know that I'm no professional at this, but, from your drawings, I would only suggest to add your blast gates to both sides the first Y so you can open the line you need, and close the other.


----------



## Rayne (Mar 9, 2014)

thanks for the suggestions! Some of my tools do go down to 2-1/2", so I plan on putting in an air intake valve / slider on those, which I think will only apply to my planer and miter saw. I plan on having an overarm collector on my table saw, so with both of those being 2-1/2", I think it won't choke the collector. Everything else will be 4". 
I have some ideas that I haven't seen used yet for the miter saw, so we'll see how that pans out.

Roger,
Will there be any major performance loss by only having blast gates at the tool and not anywhere else? I haven't considered any mid-point blast gates, thinking the distance of getting to my tools wouldn't be great enough to warrant one, well, in my mind anyways. lol.


----------



## Finn (May 26, 2010)

In order to cut down on the duct needed in my system by one half I ran all the duct from the dust collector to the equipment on the floor, along the wall, out of the way. This avoided having the duct go up eight feet at the dust collector and down eight feet at each of five points of collection at the equipment. Over forty feet of duct avoided in my case.


----------



## Rayne (Mar 9, 2014)

I can't run mine on the floor as I need the floor space to roll things to and from as it shares the garage with my lawn equipment and other outside care. And it doesn't matter right now anyways. My 6" snap lock pipe is just not snapping together. it seems 2 things are wrong with it; 1: a portion of the tab that goes into the snaplock is completely FLAT so nothing can actually Lock on to the female end, 2: what part I could fit together, it doesn't go in all the way at all, so this project is delayed till next week so I can get to the local HVAC supply to exchange and maybe have them assemble the pipe there for me. I had no problems getting the 5" pipe to lock, although that's only 2 so far, so I probably should check the other set to make sure I won't have the same problem before I hit up the HVAC store. Man…so much wasted time on a relatively simple task.  Only other solution would be to use the HVAC tape to hold the pipe together, but I'm not sure that would be a wise move.


----------



## Finn (May 26, 2010)

I have never had snap lock pipe that would not snap together. Sometimes it is hard to manage though. Try putting one end together and clamp in place with a vice-grip pliers and then push and slap the rest of the seam together. On your knees holding the pipe between them.


----------



## Rayne (Mar 9, 2014)

Jim,

Yeah, I tried that as well. I used 2 band clamps to hold one end together, but I can't even get a quarter of it to stay without the clamps. Even when I get half way, the middle just pops back up. There is a significant gap as if the female side is crimped just too much to allow it to fully lock with the male end. I even compared the seams on the 5" that were put together with no issues and see there is a drastic different. The only part that does lock is the very end only because I opened it up a little. If there was a tool to enlarge that last 1/16" crimp on the female side, I'm sure it would work out just fine.


----------



## Holbs (Nov 4, 2012)

think future ducting. where there is a 45-45 corner, add a 3 way wye afterwards and cap one port off. Will save you headache down the road when you add or move items. 
I used the grey HVAC snap duct seal (looks like grey toothpaste). Seals up everything and was just $25 for a tub.
I also used HVAC snap duct from my Thein tophat baffle to my duct collector inlet, instead of spiral hose. Everyone says spiral hose is bad in long lengths.
I have since added 3 more 45 degree fittings, after this picture, to make the bends not to aggressive


----------



## Rayne (Mar 9, 2014)

Holbs,

I was thinking along the lines like you had on the 90, 90 like I see on yours, but I need that extra space for walking as everything is slowly starting to cramp up a bit. It's all good; I don't think it'll kill my performance too much for what it is doing; if it is, I'll make the adjustment later. As for the 3-way wyes, I might do that as I have 4 extra Wyes due to an error by the company I ordered from as they are 60-65 degrees rather than 45, so I would probably be careful of where I put them.

On a brighter note, I successfully snapped the 6" pipe together. I don't like losing to something like that, so I got aggressive. I did got 4 more cuts on my hand as payment. lol. I used a flathead screwdriver to open up the female side and it finally all closed tightly, although the one end is still not catching all that well since it is flat. I sealed all the seams with tape so that should hold everything together, I hope. I'll post photos when I make more progress, but for now, the collector is connected to the cyclone and I couldn't be happier.


----------



## intelligen (Dec 28, 2009)

Your 1.5hp dust collector is probably underpowered for a central dust collection system, especially with all those tight bends and a cyclone. If you want to know how far you can run your lines, there's no getting around it-you have to do the math. Enter the dust collector's rated CFM and static pressure and each of your runs into a static pressure calculator like Bill Pentz's Excel spreadsheet.

http://www.billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/staticcalc.xls


----------



## Rayne (Mar 9, 2014)

I tried using that spreadsheet and I don't see where I can enter my DC's CFM and Static Pressure into the spreadsheet. I tried a couple of scenarios, but the results doesn't mean anything to me, like what is 21" Inches WC total loss? What does WC stand for since the spreadsheet doesn't elaborate on that?


----------



## intelligen (Dec 28, 2009)

> I tried using that spreadsheet and I don t see where I can enter my DC s CFM and Static Pressure into the spreadsheet. I tried a couple of scenarios, but the results doesn t mean anything to me, like what is 21" Inches WC total loss? What does WC stand for since the spreadsheet doesn t elaborate on that?
> 
> - Rayne


Sorry, I misspoke earlier-you don't enter the DC's figures in, but you will need to know them in order to determine whether it supports the required CFM and static pressure.

There are some instructions if you scroll up in the spreadsheet, but basically you start out by entering the CFM of your most demanding tool near the top where it says, "CFM required." After you enter everything else in for that tool's run of duct/hose, the calculator gives the static pressure WC loss figure. This is the amount of resistance your DC needs to overcome, and your DC needs to have a static pressure rating at least as high as this number. You should repeat this check separately for each tool on each run.

Also look at the rows under Ducting for the Calculated Velocity. If the calculated velocity is less than 4000 FPM, increase the CFM figure. Note that when you increase the pipe diameter, you'll also need to increase the CFM to achieve the same FPM.

I found an old WOOD Magazine test that showed the Shop Fox 1.5hp DC's performance was only about half its advertised performance-560 CFM @ 5.2" WC static pressure.


----------



## Rayne (Mar 9, 2014)

I read the instructions but didn't see what WC actually meant. I did understand that what I was keying in was for the performance of 1 tool based upon the entire run; I just didn't understand what that result meant, but now I do. Thanks Rob. And the results are still not promising. I had a hard time getting anything to hit below 10 (i was shooting for 12 as that's what the recommended target was, so I played around with the numbers a bit). I basically had nothing to hit 10, so I'm not sure if something is being calculated correctly. Plus with so many people using this kind along with HF's and succeeding, something has to be off…

And thanks for the link on Wood Magazine. It seems most of the DC's failed to meet the minimum, but I'm running 5" mains and only 6" to the cyclone. That should help it out a little and looking at the grades, only the bag filtration was horrible, but I've already alleviated that with a nano-fiber filter with 240 sq ft coverage. I guess I'll chalk it up to experience if it fails horribly.


----------



## intelligen (Dec 28, 2009)

WC is water column, and is measured in inches of water the dust collector can lift up a pipe. This is just a measure of resistance.

I think the recommended ceiling for static pressure is 12 in the spreadsheet simply because very few DCs are realistically capable of anything higher. If you're still getting a figure of 20, you need to step up to a larger diameter pipe (which will probably also require a DC with a higher CFM) and/or reduce the resistance in that run.

You can probably reduce the lengths of some of your runs quite a bit by running diagonal lines and chopping out corners rather than using 90s. For example, you said you plan on making a long sweep by using two 90-degree ducts bent to 45. Insert some straight pipe between those two 45s to chop out the corner.

You may also be able to shorten some runs by not running all the way to the ceiling, but running along the wall. Also try moving your most demanding tool is closer to the dust collector (or vise-versa).

The 4000 FPM air velocity is what it takes to collect most of the dust at the tool and keep the sawdust and chips suspended in the air as they travel through the pipe. This figure is conservative and you can reduce it a little, but if you fall short by too much, you'll collect less dust at the tool and will be at risk of having your pipes clog.

I get the impression most people using the HF DC are moving it from tool to tool or have very short runs. I made the mistake of buying one a couple years ago, and it's better than nothing but it can barely keep a single straight 10' run of 4" flex hose clear. If I plug those numbers into that static pressure calculator and compare with the figures from the WOOD Magazine test, I can see that the HF DC falls short on static pressure by quite a bit. I think the only reason it works as well as it does is that the table saw itself will shoot sawdust 6' out the back if the DC isn't turned on.


----------



## ssnvet (Jan 10, 2012)

Those right angles cost you a lot of head loss….

Some folks have taken the DC motor off the frame and mounted it to a pair of 2x cleats on the wall above the separator connection, making it essentially a straight shot into the separator.


----------



## Rayne (Mar 9, 2014)

Thanks for the detailed explanation. I still think something is off. Look at my screengrab below. That's a relatively short run and it still doesn't get below 10. It's just a fabricated situation on a tool, but it's less than 8' overall, 1 90 turn total, 1 45 wye, and it still is over 10. I can't imagine the DC not being able to perform ideally on such a short run. I understand there is a loss with the Cyclone, but it just doesn't seem right. If this is correct, then theoretically, I would need at least a 6" main with, what, 3 HP DC minimum, on top of upgrading the cyclone to have a 6" port, which would be the XL? For a small shop, that just boggles my mind, IMO. I will definitely consider moving my bigger tools around, particularly with the Planer and Jointer, closer to the DC. I'm not sure what my Router table would require or my Chop saw (realistically with the chop saw, I probably shouldn't even consider this into the whole equation since it's bad at collecting dust from it anyways). I think the runs are still reasonable, so I can still move forward with the install, but with different locations of the final run. Goodness, this is a headache.


----------



## intelligen (Dec 28, 2009)

At a glance, the FPM values look a lot higher than what you need. What is the recommended CFM of the tool on this line? Try entering that CFM or a little higher to get something around 4000 FPM in your 5" ducts.


----------



## Rayne (Mar 9, 2014)

OMG…I'm an idiot. I left the CFM at the default 1000…The jointer being the longest run would only require about 400 - 500 CFM, but the velocity at that CFM only reaches to about 3800. I did 550 to hit 4000 and the WC was about 10.2" which is what the DC is rated for, so I think I'm good with that setup, albeit barely. I still might move things around to get it a little closer to improve that number. I appreciate seeing that oversight on my part Rob. Thank you.


----------



## intelligen (Dec 28, 2009)

Glad to help, Rayne. Good luck tweaking your ducts, and let us know how it all turns out.


----------



## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

I'm sure 5" will work, but you can't go wrong with 6". That seems to be the recommended main trunk size.

I have a similar setup with the super DD. I built a frame, took the blower off and mounted it directly above the cyclone, connected to the DD with a short section of 6" flex. I believe this will greatly increase the efficiency.

In my case I did away with the bag and vented directly outside. This also greatly reduces back pressure from the blower. You may or may not have that option.

Sorry the pic is sideways, but you get the idea!

BTW, make sure the lid has an air tight seal with the collector bin.


----------



## Rayne (Mar 9, 2014)

Nice setup Robert. I don't have that option with the blower mounting the way you have it. I may still mount it in a way that will connect directly to the SDD, but I'm not ready to make that kind of support system right now. I already bought all of my HVAC pipes, but I did call Oneida and they specifically said using 6" on a SDD is not recommended. I don't recall if they gave me an explanation beyond the fact that you're increasing the 5" port to a 6". As for the container, I am using a 55 gallon steel drum with a removable lid on wheels. I'll post photos when it is complete. I'm currently having a hard time getting the 5" wye to fit on the SDD, but I should have known this beforehand since both connectors are exactly 5", so I'll get a union fitting to take care of that.


----------



## crank49 (Apr 7, 2010)

According to the Industrial Ventilation Manual, fine wood dust would be properly conveyed in ductwork with an air flow velocity of 2000 to 2500 FPM. Heavy and wet sawdust with chunks would be properly conveyed with a velocity of 4000 to 4500 FPM.

Higher velocity is not normally suggested due to the waste of energy required to create it. Power required is the cube of the pressure relationship. In other words, it takes (8) eight times as much energy to double the pressure, and velocity, of a given system. So to go from a 10" WC collector to a 20" WC collector your 2HP motor will have to become a 16HP motor; given everything else remains the same.

What happens if you don't increase the motor size? The pressure will remain the same and the volume will be reduced. A good example of this is a vacuum with a full bag/filter. The pressure tries to increase, but the motor is already maxed out so the flow reduces or even stops. These things are all self balancing in a way.


----------



## Rayne (Mar 9, 2014)

Just to post an update. I'm making good progress installing the pipes, but the self-taps are a PITA on 28 ga metal.

This doesn't show all the progress, but it's a good start. Currently, it's partially wrapped around to the other wall. I still need to cut a 12" pipe to fit between the long angle 90 and the straight pipe in the left corner. I should be able to finish tomorrow with what materials I have. I am a bit short and I'm not sure why as I counted everything when I ordered…odd. Oh well.


----------

