# Deader than a doornail



## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

Here's a bit of trivia that's likely of no interest to anyone other than geeks, like myself. Back before screws were developed and modern glues were available, nails were used to fasten joints, and things like embellishments on doors. To prevent the nail from working loose they were hammered over flat in the back as shown in the photo below. The term for a nail treated like that is called "dead."

Hence it's plausible, but not absolutely certain, that the term "deader than a doornail" has its origins in this doornail treatment.

These are photos I took at a store in Santa Fe, NM, which has a huge inventory of salvaged doors from old missions in the southwest and Mexico. The deadened nails held embellishments, hinges, and pinned the joints.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

Hmm, i always heard that called clenching. But that was mainly from English woodworkers. Maybe its a US phrase?


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Hmm, i always heard that called clenching. But that was mainly from English woodworkers. Maybe its a US phrase?
> 
> - SMP


Your term is correct as well. A clinched nail is a dead nail.

Actually, fists are clenched…lol. Gotta love the English language


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## sansoo22 (May 7, 2019)

Im not sure if Im more intrigued by the term dead nail and its possible roots to the "deader than a door nail" phrase or by this store that sells really old doors. I think I need more images of these really old doors to decide.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Im not sure if Im more intrigued by the term dead nail and its possible roots to the "deader than a door nail" phrase or by this store that sells really old doors. I think I need more images of these really old doors to decide.
> 
> - sansoo22


Head to the Southwest. There are thousands to see, both in the missions and salvaged. Don't go now though, since NM is pretty much locked down. Arizona isn't though and just south of Tucson we have the Mission San Javier, built in the late 1700s, though the mission was founded in the 1600s. Down in Tubac there is the Mission San José de Tumacácori from around the same period. You can tour both.


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

I think it was the opening line in a book I can't remember the title of but admit I always wondered what the origin was. Problem solved and the clenched vs dead just goes to show that there is "more than one way to skin a cat." Hmm


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

Ok so apparently this is from the old days when nails were scarce and expensive, requiring a blacksmith to forge. Nails that were used were removed, straightened, and reused. But nails that had been clenched were too bent for re-use and were considered dead. And it was common to clench the hinges that held window shutter doors etc.

https://thehbsfile.wordpress.com/2010/04/05/dead-as-a-doornail/


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Ok so apparently this is from the old days when nails were scarce and expensive, requiring a blacksmith to forge. Nails that were used were removed, straightened, and reused. But nails that had been clenched were too bent for re-use and were considered dead. And it was common to clench the hinges that held window shutter doors etc.
> 
> - SMP


Well, that's why I said plausible, not certain. As is always the case, you can find wide ranging speculation on the Internet. Take a look at the phrase "left in the lurch" for more fun examples of that.


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## hotbyte (Apr 3, 2010)

We bent nails over like that as kids in our tree houses and forts so we didn't step on them or scrape against them 

Also, I've seen clenched nail where you bend them over 180 degrees and point is hammer back into the wood so they look more like a staple.


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## woodbutcherbynight (Oct 21, 2011)

Well that is interesting.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> Well, that s why I said plausible, not certain. As is always the case, you can find wide ranging speculation on the Internet. Take a look at the phrase "left in the lurch" for more fun examples of that.
> 
> - Rich


I just looked at my copy of The Joiner and Cabinetmaker as I remember Thomas having to straighten nails as part of his job. It mainly says that really bent nails are likely to break or crack and even a slight crack they must be thrown away since they can't be reused.


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## therealSteveN (Oct 29, 2016)

Clinched nail

Dead nail I really like the pictures of "dead nail" all about woodworking they are.

I think SMP has the correct version 100%


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> - therealSteveN


What do we call someone who has me blocked, yet continues to post in my threads because I'm not so petty as to block them back?


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## Peteybadboy (Jan 23, 2013)

We also bent our nails in tree forts, unfortunately, I stepped on more that a few nails. I find this interesting so I must be a…...


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## AndyJ1s (Jan 26, 2019)

The first picture from the OP appears to have been a shutter or similar piece that had narrow cross braces. You can see the markings from the original braces which the nails held in place. The nails appear to have been originally clinched over the brace, then the braces either split or rotted and the nails were hammered over flush. Notice the uniform distance from the nail exiting the wood, to a right-angle bend on the nail (the original clinch), in the direction along the narrow brace.


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## therealSteveN (Oct 29, 2016)

I dunno? Smart maybe?


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> The first picture from the OP appears to have been a shutter or similar piece that had narrow cross braces. You can see the markings from the original braces which the nails held in place. The nails appear to have been originally clinched over the brace, then the braces either split or rotted and the nails were hammered over flush. Notice the uniform distance from the nail exiting the wood, to a right-angle bend on the nail (the original clinch), in the direction along the narrow brace.
> 
> - AndyJ1s


Yes, the first photo is just of some dead nails. The second two are the front and back of what I think was a door, but it could have been something else, like a shutter. I took those years ago.

Deader than a shutter nail just doesn't have the same ring to it though.

I'm sure I have lots more photos if I went looking for them. The majority of my photos from Santa Fe are of the delicious food, like the #5 plate at The Shed, or these fabulous cricket tacos I enjoyed at Sazón:


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

I'd have to clinch my pie-hole if they brought deader than a doornail crickets to my table.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> I'd have to clinch my pie-hole if they brought deader than a doornail crickets to my table.
> 
> - SMP


No, they are delicious. Paired with the right salsa and a shot of sotol, they are crunchy and nutty. That was just one taco from an order of three.


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## Ocelot (Mar 6, 2011)

I'll pass on the cricket tacos! You can have 'em all!


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## LeeRoyMan (Feb 23, 2019)

> I'd have to clinch my pie-hole if they brought deader than a doornail crickets to my table.
> 
> - SMP
> 
> ...


I think they would be alright if you took off the legs, wings and shells,
and then pretty much everything inside them.

Veggie tacos are looking better by the minute.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> I'd have to clinch my pie-hole if they brought deader than a doornail crickets to my table.
> 
> - SMP
> 
> ...


I'd need a few shots of the sotol FIRST, then i may try it. There is a taco place in Tijuana I go to and they have a special kind of taco that has a fried circle of cheese that goes into the taco and with a nice crunch to it. The meat goes onto that. Maybe if I had that with it it would make it better.


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

> No, they are delicious. Paired with the right salsa and a shot of sotol,
> - Rich


OMG, when I first looked I thought it said with shot of stool


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

> Clinched nail
> 
> Dead nail I really like the pictures of "dead nail" all about woodworking they are.
> 
> ...


I kicked a cabinet when I slipped on a cord the other day. My right big toe looks like some of those "dead nail" pics. I'll be seeing the podiatrist for another matter on the 29th. It'll probably be removed at that time. At least it'll get numbed prior to removal.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> I'd have to clinch my pie-hole if they brought deader than a doornail crickets to my table.
> 
> - SMP
> 
> ...


you might be right my beagle loves grasshoppers,she's been eating then all summer.ill pass though rich,their aint enough salsa and hot sauce for me too try those.bon appetit.

loved this trivia.


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## LeeRoyMan (Feb 23, 2019)

> I dunno? Smart maybe?
> 
> - therealSteveN


No, I don't think that's it.
Not saying whether you are smart or not, 
just that it's not the reason you comment on Rich's threads.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> No, I don t think that s it.
> Not saying whether you are smart or not,
> just that it s not the reason you comment on Rich s threads.
> 
> - LeeRoyMan


Three strikes. It won't happen again. That sort of behavior is at about the same level as making prank phone calls. It was fun in fourth grade, but most of us grow out of it.

Do you have Prince Albert in a can? Is your refrigerator running?


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## seakuv (May 7, 2019)

Those photos and the stories about straightening bent nails remind me of my first "carpentry" job. I was six years old, and my Dad bought an old wooden garage a couple miles from our house. He took it apart piece by piece and rebuilt it on our property. My job was to straighten out the nails that he pulled out so that he could re-use them. Probably kept me out of trouble too. Boy was I a proud youngster to have a job to do.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

ding dong the witch is "dead".


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## Jimarco (May 15, 2015)

I found the topic and responses very interesting and informative Rich.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Those photos and the stories about straightening bent nails remind me of my first "carpentry" job. I was six years old, and my Dad bought an old wooden garage a couple miles from our house. He took it apart piece by piece and rebuilt it on our property. My job was to straighten out the nails that he pulled out so that he could re-use them. Probably kept me out of trouble too. Boy was I a proud youngster to have a job to do.
> 
> - seakuv


Some of my best memories are of being in the shop with dad at about the same age. Thanks for sharing.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

Its an interesting topic. When I was a kid, i remember watching a show, maybe "Creepshow" or something where they buried a guy alive. And when they dug up the coffin his fingernails were stuck in the inside of the coffin door. So i kind of always thought that saying had to do with dead people's nails and coffin doors.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> I found the topic and responses very interesting and informative Rich.
> 
> - Jimarco


I'm glad to hear that. It did turn into a fun thread. Many thanks to everyone who pitched in with useful info.


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## EllenWoodHead (Feb 9, 2020)

In the first photo they look like elbows.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

Another funny thing about this saying is I have also heard "dead as a doorknob", which makes no sense unless it was a mistaken version of this?


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Another funny thing about this saying is I have also heard "dead as a doorknob", which makes no sense unless it was a mistaken version of this?
> 
> - SMP


LOL. How about dumb as an ox? That describes perfectly one of the thread's intruders.


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## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

> I dunno? Smart maybe?
> 
> - therealSteveN


For sure…
Dunning-Kruger much?


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## robscastle (May 13, 2012)




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