# How much reading posts and reviews on LJ really help you in your decison process?



## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

I have been a member of JL for several years and I have read many, many posts about dust collection. 
Just in the last two or three weeks I have spent hours reading about this subject. 
Certainly I am much better informed about this subject that I used to be but does that really help me making the right decision? ( It certainly helps me to not make a very bad decision)
I still hesitate between different designs for my dust collection system and between different possible dust collectors.( even if that is now limited to basically only two of them)
I believe that in fact the most helpful review and posts are the very negative or very positive ones. 
I know, reading reviews and posts, that some brands of tools I have to stay away from.
What is your experience?
Thank you for reading.


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

I haven't been around LJ very long, but I have belonged to a few other WW'ing forums for over 11 years. I received much advice that has been very useful. You can easily get into information overload, and start overthinking the question but that doesn't diminish it's value. Dealing with contradictory opinions is just part of the process…I try to sort through to the folks who have the same criteria I do; not always easy. But all in all, the stuff I get in response to my questions has always been useful, either in steering me into a purchase/action/whatever or away from it. In the more complex issues, it's often useful to quit overthinking and go back to basics. I will say this: I've been led astray a few times, but insignificant compared to the number of times I received good advice.


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## lumberjoe (Mar 30, 2012)

It's helpful if you are looking for direction, but as Fred pointed out, it is easy to be led astray. It's not that people are giving bad advice, but there are A LOT of options out there for many different things. You need to find people who are aligned to the way you work or aligned with your goals. I am a hobbyist and do not need commercial grade equipment, nor am I a heavy tinkerer and want to invest a lot of time in ad-hoc solutions or heavy modifications to achieve my end results.

If you have a basic understanding of the scope and direction you want to take something, and get advise based on that scope, I have found it very useful.


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## BigMig (Mar 31, 2011)

I'm not a long time member, but I've gotten great advice from other LJers on tool selection and functionality, as well as technique ideas and aesthetic ideas.


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## Manitario (Jul 4, 2010)

For me, reading the reviews has been a helpful process, often I get ideas for tools/brands that I wouldn't have considered (Grizzly) and realize other brands that I should stay away from (Laguna). It's cheaper to learn from someone else's experience! That said, I have a bunch of different sites that I go to when I am considering a tool purchase; the LJ reviews provide feedback from real user experience, but as a consequence, they tend not to be very objective.


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## OggieOglethorpe (Aug 15, 2012)

My personal weighting depends on the author of the post or review, and their level of anonyminity…

Sometimes, I'll make it a tiny data point, other times, It'll heavily tilt my decision.

It all depends…


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## PurpLev (May 30, 2008)

I try to find meaningful insights in reviews. a review that states "works good", or "a great buy" doesn't really add any value, but a review that states "quieter than product X that I use" , or "provided me with ability Y" does.

I take those insights and make my own idea about the product and sometimes have to take a risk.

just like making the decision between FORD and CHEVY…. at some point it boils down to what fits YOU better…


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

What Barry says.

That said, LJ input changed/altered my recent purchase of the soon to be delivered choice of Lathe and the associated tools that go with such a lathe. I have found that advice priceless! Well worth the effort.

And Rob's point is also valid. One has to carry a large salt shaker when weighing advice on LJs.

And I tend to use that salt shaker on the LJs "Zeros" who offer advice. You know them… NO location, NO woodshop, NO projects, NO real self image/avatar, , NO Blogs, and NO history… Other than that, advice is good on LJs!


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## MJCD (Nov 28, 2011)

Reading the Posts and paying attention to the Projects Details have been very helpful for me; not so much the Reviews or Blogs. Also, I've a bit overwhelmed by the Members' willingness to share their experience, one-on-one.

Most of the Reviews are too early in the ownership & use to be helpful to me. The Forum has considerable experience, and the members are opinionated - thank god.

MJCD


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## DonBroussard (Mar 27, 2012)

LJ is a good source of advice that I use when I am researching a tool purchase, a technique, or material selection. I appreciate the opinions offered, but in the end, I have to make the decision. I have not been misled to this point.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

User reviews can muddle decision making. One guy loves a tool, the next guy hates it. Twenty people say it's junk, twenty people say it's the most reliable thing ever. And they can all be right. I tend to read the bad reviews first to get an idea if the complaints have a common trend or are just someone blaming the product for their own mistakes. If I'm researching a power tool and 10 of 100 had the bearings fry in the first month then I don't care how much the 90% loved it.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Getting and giving advise is all subjective,the people who offer their input and advice vary so greatly that it's sometimes hard to tell if their input is from actual experience using any participial product or if it's pure speculation based on things they have read. All said and done, you can read and post over and over again on any given subject but if you can't come to your own conclusion after investigating and research then all the reading is a waste of time and you turn into a full time shopper and product investigator. There's also the reverse side of the coin where a person ask for help on a tool or technique and has already made up their mind what to buy or how to do the technique but after many suggestion goes ahead with their original plan. In the long run I guess use of posted information boils down to how well someone one can assimilate the information given by others and to put that information into a final action to purchase,because others can't make that decision for the shopper,they have to do t themself.


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## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

Most of the time I am in the same boat that Rick is in. 
10 people say this tools is good or very good and 10 says it is junk or just OK.
In the end so many divergent opinions have a tendency to get me more confused and to make my decisions process more difficult.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Specificity of the posts really make a difference, IMO, as well. Kind of like a lie detector test for posters. Even those parroting complaints can be noticed on occasion. What Jim says is also way too common, and sometimes I find that I have to go look at such a posters posting "history" is to see if they are in perpetual "shopping" mode.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

I think we hesitate to buy because we know one these events may happen.

#1 Some one always bought it for less

#2 It goes on sale after you buy it.

#3 you read a review that claims a giant flaw in the tool you just bought

#4 Buyers remorse(should have…bought the…. cheaper one,...the better one etc.

#5 A new an improved model comes out the following week.

#6 You drop it on the floor the first day

#7 You love it ,but… if it only had…

#8 Your neighbor wants to borrow it.

#9 You open it a week after the return date only to find it broken.

#10 It breaks after using it once.(like HF)


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## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

My #1 reason to hesitate is cost. 
This is only an hobby and, in m y opinion, I already have spent more money than I should have.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

Lots of people are open to read the evaluations of people who actually run the tool through a battery of tests. As opposed to a guy who researched other reviews and then made a big purchase for himself the fact that the guy spent his money on the tool will skew the results. then there are people like you Bert who trust evaluations as long as your bias agrees with the results .

The best tool tests are by people who know how to use the tool to it limits. Then they must test tools with a standard battery of tests. so that every like tool is tested the same way. them there is the subjective results. These things that have no measurement like fit and finish feel of the tool and balance in your hand. these are opinion do you agree with the reviewer thats up to you. But the reviewer who tries to steer you away from a lemon tool is trying to help you spend your money wisely.
As a reviewer of tools I do this every day in my shop I have a list of tools I am testing and i really hope people read my tests but I cant win everyone . But that wont stop me from doing scientific tests of tools and believing in the results the test yields.


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## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

thedude50, you say bias, I say personal preferences.


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## OggieOglethorpe (Aug 15, 2012)

One of my favorite tools on sites that offer reviews, including Amazon, and travel and entertainment sites, is the "see all my reviews" button. Lumberjocks offers this, plus more, simply by looking at the reviewer's other writing history. To me, that's where most of the value of online reviews is gained.

Most of my tool decisions are based in information in this order:
1.) Experience actually using the tool via demo, school, or loan. Over the years, I've had opportunities to use lots of tools by swapping with other students in week-long, multi-evening, and weekend classes. 
In some classes, a group of us has taken all of our tool examples, say.. rasps, and shared them for personal head-to-head experience. All involved got to try all the examples. It's fantastic! Listening to everyone's impressions with an open mind really changes the way you look at future purchases. Many of the other students in the more advanced classes are extremely experienced, and share great information… and you know the source.
I also think the hands-on demo opportunities presented by companies like Veritas, LN, Tools for Working Wood (in store), etc… are worth all the effort required to experience them. 
2.) Opinions of other users, of varying levels of experience, who I know "flesh and blood". 
3.) Certain specific authors who write for specific magazines. (much less so for "staff" reviews). Points added for well documented head-to-head comparisons.
4.) High count online reviews. There's a huge difference between 3 reviews and 456… Here I'll look at the distribution, and read the most positive, most negative, and a random sampling…
5.) Reviews on web sites that feature reviews. I take these with a large grain of salt, usually using them more like press releases or product information sheets.

In the end, any tool I've actually been able to use gets a big leg up at purchasing decision time. Bigger ticket items are really tough for me to buy without touch experience, even if I have to travel.


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## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

thedude50, this is not a personal attack.
I had the same question with Marc Spagnuolo, of The Wood Whisperer. 
How objective can you be when reviewing a tool of someone who also sponsor you?


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## Nicky (Mar 13, 2007)

I read the forums and reviews regularly. They are helpful but only one data point that is used. I've developed a personal taste for certain brands that I tend to stay loyal too (i.e. Bosch, Delta etc…) I read a lot of WW mags; another data point.

As a hobbyist, I can safely say that I don't use my tools to the design limits, therefore a scientific review (and I don't think this happens because of bias or sponsorship) is not always helpful for me.

I've learned a lot in using tools (Hand planes of your dreams thread etc…). I've had my eyes opened to the proper use of tools, or using a tool in ways that I've never thought of.

Good question, and great responses.


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## davidmicraig (Nov 21, 2009)

I believe reading and writing reviews actually becomes another skillset that you have to develop as you progress in woodworking. I freely confess that my reviews in the beginning of my journey are not as well thought out as they are now. When you are new to the woodworking world, you have no points of comparison to be a good judge of the product nor really understand the importance of longevity. There are tools that I would praise in the beginning that I would kick to the curb today 

When I read reviews, I consider the experience of the writer along with what situation prompted the positive or negative comments. I read a review on tablesaws on a vendor website, for example, in which the reviewer wrote that the saw cut through walnut "like butter." Ok, that tells me you like the stock blade, but that tells me little about the saw itself. Did the unit come with a good fence? Was the allignment good out of the box? Were the cuts square? How about the miter slots? Those are the things that matter with the saw, not necessarily the blade it came with. I read a negative comment on Amazon about the Dremel multimax. The reveiwer wanted to trim the bottom of a fence and was disappointed with the performance of the tool. He finished the job with a circular saw. To me, if you had a job where you could actually choose to use a 1.5 amp mini cutting tool or a 15 amp power horse, it would be a little unfair to rule that the 1.5 amp tool was inferior.

Personally, I would like to see review sections include a spot to document your experience level. A beginner might like a tool because of the low learning curve, yet the limitations might prove irritating to a professional. Likewise, a pro might like a tool because of its numerous features, while a beginner might find it frustrating to use.


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## REO (Sep 20, 2012)

each tool has its limitations. what a person feels about a given tool can be swayed by several things one can be their peer group someone who wants to fit in will tarot the same sentiment as the rest. the opposite is true of some people. they are compelled to go against the grain and cheer for the underdog. Some have a specific tool for each application while others will modify a tool to be used in other ways. I have read many of the "reviews" where two machines made by the same manufacturer painted a different color will bring the thread to battle. Often the "review" is based on a feeling and not on fact. "I have XYZ brand and it works great! For what? why did you feel that way? I asked a question in another thread about using a tool in a certain way. the answer I got back was "it wont work" no explanation as to why. Just "it wont work". In my application it has been working for years! a few days ago someone else posted that they had broken their tool and wanted to know how to fix it. I finally found out why. the construction of my tool in that particular case is different and although I will never have the problem that they had I understand now why others don't us the tool the way i do. It is best when people give insight as to why they have come to their conclusion rather than just their conclusion. it is better to ask objective questions rather than subjective questions. the trouble is when you get down to buisness most people have subjective answers. There is an old line from a movie my dad used to quote "Talk is cheap it takes money to buy sheep". every one wants to say something it is up to you to decide what is worth listening to.


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## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

My question is : how the posts and reviews on LJ help you or not in your decision process.


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## davidmicraig (Nov 21, 2009)

I think the point is that there is no clear cut answer to that Bert  Reviews on LJs work like just about any other location. Experience, expectation, results are all relative to one another. They do help from time to time, and they can also make the decision that much more frustrating, especially when the reviews are varied. I would say that my biggest help comes when an experienced woodworker gives a good review about a cheap tool from a company such as HF or draws my attention to a product that I have had no prior knowledge of. A great review on a Lie Neilsen doesn't give me much more insight and a bad review about a HF mitersaw doesn't surprise me either. But a stubby nubs review about a set of diamond files or a particular hand plane from harbor freight will actually give me pause and consideration.


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## kdc68 (Mar 2, 2012)

I think *Rick M* hit the nail on the head. His comment on this thread below:

User reviews can muddle decision making. One guy loves a tool, the next guy hates it. Twenty people say it's junk, twenty people say it's the most reliable thing ever. And they can all be right. I tend to read the bad reviews first to get an idea if the complaints have a common trend or are just someone blaming the product for their own mistakes. If I'm researching a power tool and 10 of 100 had the bearings fry in the first month then I don't care how much the 90% loved it.

But I must agree with *a1Jim* and *Horizontal Mike *about those who have no projects, no workshop, no location. no….. If I were to base an opinion on a tool between two reviewers. Reviewer one has a homepage with projects, a workshop, and other details. Reviewer two provides no info. I might be swayed in reviewer one's opinion over reviewer two's. I guess it's about credibily between the reviewers.

I'm somewhat new to LJ's but not new to woodworking. I appreciate the advice from everyone who has an opinion. I have been more than just an observer lately. My intent is to provide honest opinions at the same time add detail to my homepage, post reviews, and so on. It's still a work in progress. I think having a more detailed profile and homepage established would deduce my credibity to those that read my posts.


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

During my researches I have always wished for a Consumer Reports for woodworking. Alas, no such animal.


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## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

I, in fact like Jimmy Swaggart


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## Grandpa (Jan 28, 2011)

Well, I want to say something. I have no projects and no shop posted. I can take a bunch of shop photos and post them and a bunch of furniture projects and post those too. Are they mine? How do you know. I can blow smoke just like everyone else and what is gained. I have an opinion just like everyone else. I don't have people coming to break down my shop door while I am out of town because I am not on the map and you don't see thousands of dollars worth of tools on the internet. I don't get shot at from some crazy on a motor cycle riding down the road because I didn't post my address. I don't think makes me a bad guy. It doesn't make me less intelligent than any of the others. I have learned a lot on here. I have also been honest when I do make a statement.


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Bert, I'm happy for you.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

The good thing about the reviews on LJ is they are unsolicited. I never trust a review from a "tool reviewer". It might be spot on, but it might be skewed by the fact they are a sponsor. How do you know?

I'm also looking for likes and dislikes. They describes features. I'm not looking for the opinion so much as the features it describes, I can then decide if I think it would work for me.

One thing about the tool advertising and documentation is they describe what the tool can do, but never adds what it can not do.


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

I was doing some research on bluetooth technology the other day and went straight to bluetooth.org figuring I could get all I needed to know. After 20 minutes of wonderful information on what it can do I went to different sites of those using the technolgy for headsets. Come to find out it sucks when trying to use them to watch movies/videos. The audio always lags the video by about 1 second…just enough to see the lips and sound are out of sync. The .org site told me what it can do just skirting the edge of not saying it's limits and downside. You always have to be on the lookout for such marketing strategy.


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## cutworm (Oct 2, 2010)

I look for patterns of either problems or positives. You get some good views and always some bad. Apply the 80/20 rule. I've noticed that some people hate certain brands. If a blanket statement is made about a certain brand being junk I pass on the advice. It's not that hard to detect hot air…...
I feel the posts help a lot. Some of the jocks have great insight. But you have to separate the honest opinion from the BS. The tone of their comments should be a flag.
I'd say the forums on LJ's are as helpful as Consumer Reports.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

the other *really* nice thing about a review on LJ, you can interact with the reviewer. You can ask questions and make comments of your own, either threw a post or PM.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

Bert I will be happy to discuss advertisements on my site with you in pm but it is not everyones business.

DKV we for many years did not take advertisement dollars the problem was tool companies want something in return for giving small companies like mine tools for a long time we asked for loaner tools but the super high freight charges have ended the loans plus the tool company likes to be in other things like in the background of a video their tool is there being used for a process and people ask what is that tool . and where do i get it/ there are a lot less tool companies who will just give you a tool to review knowing you will point out a negative tool they may want something else from you we try not to disclose to the tool testers wither the tool was a trade a purchase or what ever the reviewer does not need to know who or how the tool was acquired.

For a long time people would tell you we dont help reviewers with the cost of the tool . they would say paying for the tool made you give a different review however in research we found that once you buy a tool you become aware of that tool you start noticing that tool everywhere. As you made a conscious choice to buy the tool it is only natural to justify the purchase no one wants to admit they bought the wrong tool


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## Straightbowed (Feb 9, 2012)

I value lumberjocks opinions but I do weed them out try to get pros and cons and read what lumberjocks say mostly older more experienced jocks are what I look to for advice, when I post on here about something it's usually all the wrong things I done and corrected to better help another out


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## mbs (May 8, 2010)

I like reading reviews and getting advice. I tend to discredit reviews that sound like they've been written by the company's sales manager.

Some people have been critical of authors who don't add any value to a review other than whats listed on the manufacturers website. Hopefully their criticality will lead to better reviews.

Sometimes I find something i didn't know existed. I don't always buy the item reviewed but I may have thought the concepts was good and then I find a brand or model that suites me better. I generally read amazon reviews and other ww sites too. I bought a shop apron and a remote for my DC lately based on reviews.

There are some products that I would never buy regardless of the review either because the quality is so poor that they won't last or they're so expensive that I wouldn't feel the value proposition was there for me.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

Reviewing a sponsor is an advertisement, not a review. It's not a bad thing as it can help you learn more about that tool but it shouldn't be portrayed as a "review".


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

rick your logic is flawed as every single magazine that writes a review for their magazine is an add this is a strange idea to me all the tools we test are ran through a fixed battery of tests this is the only way to do a scientific review. just because someone buys an ad on the site will not exempt them from a review that is negative if the tool fails the tests it fails its that simple.


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## gfadvm (Jan 13, 2011)

Bert- Whenever considering the value of advice, I always consider the source. Does the advisor have a dog in this fight? Do you respect/admire this individual? I have gotten a lot of great advice from Lumberjocks but I always "consider the source". I think you and I have this in common: we both really do a lot of research before we spend our money! Always a good plan in my book.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

Dude, you are correct, magazine "reviews" are basically advertisements which is why you always see a correction or amendment when one of their advertiser's products do poorly; and why most of those reviews are milquetoast. There is nothing wrong with my logic and I'm not commenting on your reviews as I've never read them, go work on your mallet and stop knee-jerking all over the forum.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

well rick there is your opinion and the 2000000 that read the top 5 magazines i go with the masses on this I think you paranoid


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## RonInOhio (Jul 23, 2010)

Not every suggestion or tip is worth using or filing away obviously, but I have found these forums and forums like
them to be an enormous resource . You can't beat the collective amount of knowledge and information. The challenge for me is finding a way to reference those great ideas when the situation calls for it.


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

*The knowledge passed around on this site has significantly reduced the number of slaps to the forehead!*


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

A customer of mine was a marketing director for one of the largest computer companies in the world. One day she was carrying a binder full of reviews and industry awards (this was in the 90's, back when there were still computer magazines). Buttering her up I said something about being impressed. She's gives me this look and says, "Don't kid yourself, we bought every single one of them."


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

If there is one thing I don't do, it's go with the masses. Most of the people buying these tools are not really using them. Stanley is still one of the biggest tool manufacturers in the world. So your going to buy Stanley planes because more people buy stanley planes then LN or LV?

As a reviewer, that is an odd statement to make. i go with the masses is NOT telling me I can trust your reviews.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

*"...If there is one thing I don't do, it's go with the masses…."*

Gee, I wonder how folks think about MY opinions.

LOL *;-)*


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

if there is one thing I truly trust, is if you write your opinion Mike, it's not been skewed


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## Momcanfixit (Sep 19, 2012)

Another lively debate, and an excuse to pour another cup of coffee…

As a relative newby to the site and the craft, I'll add my two cents worth.

I would probably fall into HorizontalMike's "perpetual shopping mode" category. In the past year I've purchased a planer, new circ saw, a jointer and various hand tools. I also have a semi-assembled bandsaw in my garage waiting to be returned.

I do read extensively before making a purchase, much of it on this site. I check my source, as many of you do, by checking out the member's projects, shops and other posts. The red flag goes up whenever I see someone posting 'absolute' statements about a particular brand, or cutting someone down because of their brand preference. I also want to know if this LJers is a professional, making his/her living at this or a hobbyist like me. My tools will not see the same use as many of the posters'.

There are specific LJers who have given me great advice thus far, and I will continue to trust their opinions.

The amount of information available is tremendous. The challenge is in sorting through it and reaching a decision you can live with.

It's highly unlikely I'll ever write a review of any product, because many of the responses there are merciless!

Happy Wednesday


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## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

Artiemax; " 
"Darn near all of the suggestions anywhere suggest you have to have Veritas, L-N, Saw Stop, Biesemeyer, etc." 
I do not think that it is true. 
Some just plain refuse to have anything to do with Harbor Freight but many also praise gems that can be found and bought at HF.( just make a search about HF dust collectors or clamps) 
Many LJers offer advices to make things cheaper or easier.
Many show you how to buy a used machine versus a brand new one and how to make it work for you.
There are tool snobs but most LJers do not fall into this category.
"I currently have a request into the site owner on how to remove myself from LJ." 
Why?
I believe that there are tons of very good things and very nice people on LJ.
You have the freedom to select what ever you want to read or to ignore everything else. 
You could very easily not visit the website.


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## lj61673 (Oct 31, 2011)

Gotta disagree with you ArtieMax, There are more Harbor Freight threads here than any other site I have seen.


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## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

Sandra, " It's highly unlikely I'll ever write a review of any product, because many of the responses there are merciless!" 
This is not quite true and that should not stop you. 
Only a small minority is like that, most LJers are respectful and give good advices even when they disagree with you.
The other LJers need your opinion.


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## curliejones (Mar 12, 2012)

I too look for consistency in evaluations of a tool, a style of bench, a method of work. Like others mentioned, it helps when you can identify with the goals of the reviewer. Always consider the source and if the complaint is repeated over and over. I especially enjoy the input when facts are involved, such as light color (K) and Color rendering index. All in all these are again just tools in the toolbox. The reviews on LJs are worth a lot more to me than those on websites where purchases are made because, generally speaking, LJs usually represent some time spent/invested whereas so many of the product reviews found elsewhere resemble "I love this thing; I've had it almost three days now. For lots of incidentals (a glue brush?), you can tell immediately whether or not you like something. For tools, lights (my curiosity as of late), etc. Let's see how something holds up before getting too excited. The great thing about this site is that you can usually find plenty of info if you dig for it, then judge on a preponderance of the evidence. You very often see where several people found the same weakness and were disappointed in a "bargain" item, then one clever lumberjock tells how he easily remedied the one one poor attribute and enjoys the overwhelming good he found in the bargain. Keep writing LJs!


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## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

""Sometimes I use my head, Sometimes I get a bigger hammer" 
How often do you do one or the other?


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

*@Sandra:* "...I would probably fall into HorizontalMike's "perpetual shopping mode" category. In the past year I've purchased a planer, new circ saw, a jointer and various hand tools. I also have a semi-assembled bandsaw in my garage waiting to be returned…."

Ah, the difference with you Sandra, is that *you are actually buying* and NOT just window shopping, and shopping, and shopping, and shopping in order to garner conversation/attention on LJs. Big DIFFERENCE.

**


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## lumberjoe (Mar 30, 2012)

As far as sponsored reviews go, you do have to be careful. I don't immediately discount them. You have to remember, these people have a reputation to uphold. Losing a sponsorship is not the end of the world, endorsing junk tools because you got them for free or because the company sends you a little cash is the end of the world.

If we are talking specifically about reviews I follow these guidelines

1. Ignore the 5 star and 1 star reviews at first. These are emotional attachments 95% of the time. On the very rare occasion is a tool (or anything) absolutely perfect, or complete and utter crap. A 5 star is a tool gloat, a 1 star is hurt feelings (most of the time).

2. You want a really large sample rate. Go to multiple sites, read lots of reviews. Again, the 2,3,and 4 star reviews will be the most honest and subjective

3. Less than 300 words? Pass.

4. Defects happen. You are always going to get the 1 star guy who got a woodworker II that got damaged in shipping and is now furious so will write a crap review about how he can't use his $140 blade for another 2 weeks. *Patterns are bad*. If you notice A LOT of posts with a similar tone, then you may need to take it into consideration. (this is why you read a lot of reviews).

5. Know your audience. As Barry mentioned, check out the reviewers other reviews. You can pretty much piece together my whole shop by the reviews I have posted here. It shows I am kind of a cheap guy, not brand loyal to anything in particular, and most importantly I do have experience with a wide variety of tools.

Last but not least - try to get your hands on one. The guys at my woodcraft are awesome. They will let me demo almost anything they have. It's tough with some of the catalogue/mail order companies though. You can't just go into a store and test out a Grizzly bandsaw.


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## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

Mike you also buy, it is enough to look at your beautiful shop to know it.
I, too shop a lot and ask many questions.
What's wrong with that?


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

BERT: "...thedude50, this is not a personal attack…."

Strike *thedude50* and Insert *Bert*. I made a global statement that any research at all, can be proven to exist here on LJs. I mentioned NO names of the offending folks, though I did point out that Sandra WAS NOT one of them.


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## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

Mike and never saw your post as a personal attack on anyone. 
I was just teasing you (and I) as I shop around at least as much as you do and yes I do like your shop and your tools.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Bert, you make a good point in that the mere fact that we all are communicating with our keyboards limits our ability to show subtle quirks such as winks, nods, smiles, etc. Emoticons help but are not a cure since we all interpret events/statements differently. 

;-) 
LOL
8^(
LOUD
etc.


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## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

;-)
8^(
LOUD

Translation??
 what does this mean?
Thank you.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

= smile
;-) = wink
8^( = frown
LOUD = all caps is shouting!

And of course you could memorize the FULL emoticon list
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_emoticons


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## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

Thank you Mike

"And of course you could memorize the FULL emoticon list
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_emoticons'
I really do not want to do that


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## DocSavage45 (Aug 14, 2010)

Great thread,

We all have opinions and bias. I have requested opinions on possibly questionable tools, and I appreciate that fellow LJ'ers have taken time to respond. I stay away from arguements as they are unproductive? Everybody's experience is valid. It may not apply to my situation.

Due to great experiences with some companies' service departments I am biased in their favor. And as every good business owner knows it's the "Customer that counts!""

Some people post opinions without having used the tool? and it's pretty obvious. They also may think that because they paid more it is of course better? Should be, but defects occurr.

So yes, I have solicited and reviewed regarding purchases. I don't plan on doing a lot of wood turning, bought a Harbor Frieght Lathe on sale ( of course) and the fit and finish was really good. And it was because of people who used the tool telling me about it's stregths and short comings. Also purchased a Grizzly cabinet saw used, but solicited opinions first. Thanks LJ's


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Bert, just remember the four I listed and that really is more than enough. If you haven't figured it out yet, look at these sideways by tilting your head to the left. I have to admit, that the first time I saw these I really thought it was some kind of exotic language until I realized they really look like a face.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

A good example, I was shopping for a space heater and reading reviews on Amazon…

'I bough this 1500W heater for my 1800 sq ft basement and an hour later it was still cold. This thing is junk!'
'This radiant heater is only warm when you stand in front of it. Chinese garbage!'
'My $15 heater broke after 3 years and the company doesn't sell parts! Don't anything from XYZ Co.!!'

And of course, nothing brings out the safety brigade quicker than table saws and space heaters.

I'm paraphrasing but not exaggerating (much).


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## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

Mike, you are correct.


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## Kreegan (Jul 10, 2012)

The thing with reviews is you can't trust just one source. You have to get opinions from multiple different places.

- The best obviously is if you know someone personally who has the item or has worked with it.

- Next are reviews on sites like Lumberjocks or Knots, etc, where reviews are not the primary point of the site.

- Next are reviews from dedicated review sites like epinions or Yelp or Consumer Reports. These have to be taken with a bit of a grain of salt, but if there are enough reviews you can easily see patterns of opinion and experience.

- Next are reviews from sponsored sites or mass market sources like Amazon, Sears, etc. These have to be taken with a very large grain of salt, either because you doubt the impartiality of the reviewer on a sponsored site, or because it's so easy to game the system as on Amazon. With those sites, it's best if there are lots of reviews, so that you can sort through and find patterns.

- Last are reviews that are posted on the manufacturer's site. It's incredibly easy for manufacturers to filter out and remove bad reviews of their products on their own site (Delta I'm looking at you.). I give full props to those rare sites that don't do this, such as PSI and Woodcraft. It's even better when you can tell that the manufacturer has listened to the reviews and addressed them.

Overall, for me Lumberjocks reviews definitely help, but they're not my sole source of research when I'm looking at buying something. I've written a few reviews here and certainly wouldn't expect anyone to buy something based solely off of them. I've tried to be as thorough as I can, but I'm human and therefore fallible and biased.


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

*Personally I use reviews like toilet paper … does that get everyone's attention?*

Reviews by users *who bought* the product are more useful than those by *paid reviewers*!

Where do reviews by reputable magazines fall? I guess that depends a lot on which magazines the potential buyer reads and trusts.

As far as this site goes, I asked about DC for my shop and got a lot of useful input from LJs that actually have the systems they recommended in their shop. Do I trust these recommendations more than a magazine, *probably!*


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

Don wow talk about taking something out of context to voice your anger at someone who has done nothing to you yet you block them from your threads.

By going with the masses I said i trust most of the reviews i read in the magazines as do most of the subscribers. I think you were attacking me because your angry at me for something that did not effect you in any way.

If you have a beef with me be man enough to handle it in a pm


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## mbs (May 8, 2010)

I find it interesting to learn about people's criteria for believing someones review. How long they've owned the tool, # of projects completed, complexity of project, shop pictures, # of posts, age, ... I wonder if there exists a LJ'er that everyone would believe.

It's also interesting to me at how something (tool, process, finish) will work very well for one person but not for another. It's hard to determine if it's driven technique, level of persistence, environmental conditions or expectations. Look at how many sharpening systems there are. If one was truly "best" then wouldn't people gravitate towards it?


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

You want someone you can identify with on reviews. Someone who would use a tool or product on projects you'd undertake. Tough to find. Then there's brand identity and customer loyalty. And price. Even in the face of 'perfect information,' buying for many isn't a pure science. Lots of forces in play. Good stuff!


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

Sorry dude, it wasn't meant as a personal attack. By saying I don't go with the masses, I meant I don't trust the the reviews i read in the magazines. Its not that I don't read them, and research based on the information, its I wouldn't buy a tool based on a magazine recommendation. I *MAY* buy a tool based on certain LJ member recommendations. Its a matter of trust.

Just because we (all people on LJ, not me and thedude) have opposing views, doesn't make either of us right or wrong, that's the good thing about this site, its the opposing views.

As for the blocking dude, I'll unblock you and send a PM of why I did block you, but if you turn it into a pi$$ing contest, I don't have the inclination to deal.


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## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

I personally know ,as a friend, someone who does review for Fine Woodworking.
I am have no doubt about this honesty and integrity but in all reviews there also is a matter of personal preferences and which cannot easily be put into word or number.
I know that between the two most prestigious brand of hand planes , he has a personal preference for one brand with out finding anything really wrong with other one, he just like one brand better than the other.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Hey, I just bought the HF 4×36in Belt Sander, EVEN THOUGH it states that it has a 3/4hp motor. I'll be damned if a 120v 3 1/2 amp motor is 3/4hp. Point is that a Salt Shaker goes hand-in-hand with reviews and user posts.

Once all is personally weighted, and that includes poster's/reviewer's credibility, then an educated purchasing decision can be made. Credibility weighs/carries a lot of weight IMO.


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## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

Mike waiting to read *YOUR* review of the sander.
Mike check on Youtube how this guy fixed his so that it would work.
I read somewhere else that the motor is very weak.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

I saw that Bert, and that YouTube guy (with the 3-part series) was way toooo… anal about his "adjustments". Must have been a retired machinist with nothing better to do. Mine works well enough WITHOUT having to machine lathe the belt wheels to perfection. The entire "review" was overly self-serving to show off his own machining skills. There was NO review of how the STOCK machine actually worked, only his criticism of the mechanics of the system without ever having used it.

To tell you the truth, I would rather watch CapnEddie YouTube videos for the practical truth on belt sanders/sharpeners. But then again, that is just me…


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

BTW Bert, I am waiting on my lathe and cutting tools to arrive in order to complete my conversion from sander to sharpener. I want to turn a better fitting arbor sleeve for the honing wheel and need to turn a handle for part of the sharpening setup on the belt.

I have already gone through all my chisels and most of my handplane blades on the buffing/honing wheel and am duly impressed with my 'new' honing upgrade. Much faster and better than doing manually by hand. I am not knocking hand honing as that can be more than enough for these tools. It is just that having much of it semi-automated sure makes it more likely that I will hone *more often* than I have in the past.


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## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

Mike, I do not quite agree with your statement. At the beginning of the video the guy shows the belt tensionner wobble and the noise that it makes.
His video is more about how he remedies to the problems. 
I personally believe that this is a good video, I enjoyed it.
This is the kind of things I like to do with my tools = make them work better.
I also enjoyed CapnEddie's video, which is another style for another purpose.


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## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

Mike do you have blog about your adaptions/modifications on this belt sander?


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Mine has never made that sound. And even though the wheel is not perfect, the "wobble" or less-than-roundness is so minimal as it does not effect the function of the belt.

I stand corrected. As far as the guy showing the sound& wobble, that is 05:30 minutes into the video, hardly at the beginning. And the sound and wobble in this guy's video DOES NOT show this sander to being dysfunctional. Guys like this need to buy the $800-$1500 versions of this type of machine if he expects perfection, as he obviously does. Unfortunately I think this guy would be disappointed even with those high dollar versions. Grab your Salt Shaker Bert. It is applicable here.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

I am following the *American Woodturner Journal* December 2012 article detailing the conversion. It is a straight forward process and not really worthy of duplicating this Journal's work in its entirety. Swing by your local WW source and pick up a copy, as I did after being informed of this neat conversion. Well worth it.


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## mbs (May 8, 2010)

A comment with respect to following the masses. For some things, like a shop apron, I might follow the masses. The investment is low, the price my be reasonable since many people are purchasing it, and if I don't like it I can likely send it back, sell it on ebay or give it away.

For bigger too purchases, I look for more critical reviews from people who write fact based descriptions I'm interested in knowing about. e.g. Bearings vs bushings, runout, flatness, soft start, dust collection, plastic vs steel, vibration, noise, fit and finish, missing parts, assembly time, documentation, customer service, return policy.

Having just written the things I'm interested in, I wonder if we should propose a boiler plate for people doing reviews that they can use if they WANT to. It could cut down in the time it takes to write the review and provide better information for the readers. What do you guys think?


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Bert,
This is how HF took care of that "squeal". HF DOES listen on occasion.


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## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

Some grease would also work well , probably better. 
Even better yet, instal a small plastic bushing.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Bert, that white sleeve is a bushing. It stays in place as the rod moves up and down. Looks like a stiff piece of heat shrink, but it stays in place and has a dab of grease inside of it. This is how it came from HF and is NOT my fix.


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## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

Good.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

mbs all serious reviewers have a set of rules they use I think a standard set of questions is vital to the success of the review. The process we use is this

This Old Workshop began our tool tests back in 1995. Since that time we have reviewed a long list of tools, jigs and supplies. Now our tests are preformed in our Clovis, California location. . When testing we take into consideration many aspects including performance, price for value, shop necessity.

Performance: We will consider several factors when grading performance. Asking questions like,

Did the equipment perform as well as the manufactor says it should?
Is it easy to use, adjust and clean?
Is it well built?
Is the overall quality of the equipment up to standards?
Is this a tool that will last and hold up under use?

Price for Value: In the economy of today's shop budgets, is the tool "worth" having for the price.

Is the tool a good value for what it produces?
Is the price worth paying for in exchange for time savings?
Is maintenance, or supplies too expensive?
How does the price and quality relate to the competition?
Does the tool retain its resale value?

Shop Necessity: Is this something you must have in your shop.

Is this tool something you should have?
Is this equipment a requirement or a luxury?
Is this tool going to collect dust? or be a favorite tool?

On top of this we developed standard tests for the tools to be reviewed drill must do drilling so we drill lots of test holes in lots of different woods with lots of different bits . 
The same applies to all other tool types each should face the same set of tests to be rated fairly .

Don the one thing that Magazines get to do that small sites rarely get to do is head to head tests they have the budget or the cooperation of the tool manufactures to get sets of tools for review the run the tools through a battery of tests yet their opinions on some things remain subjective and are simply a personal choice I believe there are two that i did not agree with in recent months but they the magazines give you loads of their raw data the two reviews that really killed me was the recent chisel review in Wood and the other was Mario Rodriguez's review of low angle block planes. In both these cases I suspect some kind of nepotism I cant prove it but one only need look at his review sheet to have doubts.

The whole thing about writing good reviews for a site or here is how you handle the bad results you find. If you want to keep an open door to getting more tools to review you have to be tactful when you find a flaw in a tool and more than that this information can save the tool company millions of dollars if the fix is simple and they choose to listen to your findings. We are fortunate to get to test lots of good quality tools. as a result of this we dont have to flame a lot of poor quality tools. However we will soon be embarking on a set of tools for the beginning woodworker. We will shop for the best for less like a buyer would if he were just getting started in woodworking and we will try to outfit a whole shop on a 6k budget. This number was not randomly picked it came from a thread on LJ. I look forward to this review and story it should be a fun one look for it in june 2013. as we test tools for a minimum of 90 days before we write a review that is the tool is tested on a battery of tests then it is put in the tool till and used daily to see how it gets used once in the shop tool chest.


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## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

Clovis, really!

Clovis (French pronunciation: [klɔ.vis] ; c. 466 - 511), or Chlodowech (Latin Chlodovechus), was the first king of the Franks to unite all of the Frankish tribes under one ruler, changing the form of leadership from a group of royal chieftains to rule by a single king and ensuring that the kingship was passed down to his heirs.[1] He was also the first Christian king to rule Gaul, known today as France.

Clovis was the son of Childeric I, a Merovingian king of the Salian Franks, and Basina, Queen of Thuringia. He succeeded his father in 481, at the age of fifteen.[2] He is considered the founder of the Merovingian dynasty, which ruled the Franks for the next two centuries.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

One other thing MBS is pier pressure. It is clearly prevalent in woodworking forums. One need only as the same stupid question that has been asked a thousand times on lj what saw should I buy this is the most loaded question in the woodworking world. however the masses will guide you to the same saw they got because to them it is the best bang for the buck. where did they get their information from a review on a woodworking forum and in a magazine. I know that not everyone can afford the best saw made but I do think everyone should have a safe saw. I know this view is not popular but the fact is people are getting hurt on tools that we can make safe. I think this should be a law but that will take time. I think the masses have lots of power in peoples buying decisions as dose some slick advertisement. this advertisement comes at you in ways you dont expect.


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## Mosquito (Feb 15, 2012)

I try not to persuade people with my opinions, but just be informative of the facts that I had at hand when I made my decision, why I chose what I did, and my personal experiences. I stay away from blanket statements, such as "the best ever" or anything like that.

I don't really care what your opinion is, I just care what your reasons were. Then I can take those reasons into consideration for formulating my own basis for purchase. What was important to you, and how important is that to me? That sort of thing. I don't like telling people what to get, but just trying to help them figure out what they want. They'll be happier with whatever they decide that way, in the end.

EDIT: I just want to amend that when I said "your" I wasn't speaking about anybody specifically, just a generic "reviewer" or what have you.


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## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

Lance, you talking a saw stop. 
By principle I refuse to buy any product from this company even I do not deny that their TS have an excellent reputation. 
I hate the fact that they try to impose their product on us so that they can make a fat profit at our expense.
I profoundly dislike this kind of people. 
If our safety truly is their genuine concern, let's them make the patent available to any one free of charge.
I already lost two fingers to wood working but that does not stop me. 
If people are afraid to get hurt , go play golf or watch TV.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

Mos, that's funny, because I don't like helping folks figure out what they want at all. I don't tell them what to get, either (much… lol…), but there are things that each of us know well and can discuss in compelling terms.

How we carry on that discussion determines persuasion.


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## mbs (May 8, 2010)

Bert - you should comment on my sawstop thread!

Dude - I like the standardized format. I wonder how we propose to LJ's to offer it as a template (or thought to consider when providing a Review) in the Review forum?


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## Purrmaster (Sep 1, 2012)

I find the reviews on the site extremely helpful. It's what drew me to the site in the first place. I've made tool purchasing decisions based on reviews here and the reviews haven't failed me yet. I would post more reviews myself (I want to give back to the community) but I'm not sure I'm expert enough in some cases.


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## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

+1 for the standardized format.
I think that one of the main issue about reviews is the audience, 
In general we are told to which audience the review is direct to .
Obviously we do not all have the same needs, the same test or the same budget.
My daughter is very oriented toward high quality and expensive stuff, my main interest is value. 
My daughter believe that many things I buy are junk, I believe that most things she buy are way over priced and out of her budget.

This is something that we might consider including in the standardized format; who is intended the audience of the review.


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## OggieOglethorpe (Aug 15, 2012)

"Gee, I wonder how folks think about MY opinions."

Unfortunately, many people don't *think* about other opinions, they only react to them.

I'd also love to see a standard review template, including information like time of ownership, comparable products tried, etc… After the template, the reviewer should also have the opportunity to add as much or as little free-form information as he or she would like.


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## mbs (May 8, 2010)

Even VALUE is hard to judge because value to me may not be value to you.

In setting up my Felder CF741 I needed a big square and a good flat bar. I tried setting it up with the best I had - a 12" starrett combo square. It didn't come close to meeting my needs. My friend had a woodpecker precision framing square that I borrowed and it made short work of the task. I ended up buying one @ $180. There is no VALUE there for me for 99% of the project I do. But there is certainly VALUE for large machine setup. I bring this up because some folks on another website were really blasting the woodpecker square because it was so high priced and their stanley was good enough at $15.

I personally like high quality too. But I'm not always willing to pay full retail for it unless it holds it's resale very well (LN, Veritas, festool). If it's truly high quality then I'm happy to buy it used. But there is a limit to what I'll pay. there are some planes that retail for $2500+ that I would love to try out but I wouldn't get the marginal satisfaction from one of those to account for the 8x increase in price over a LN plane.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

Barry, I always read your opinions and find them almost always logical and well stated. I dont always agree with you but more often than not we are on the same page.

I think it would be great to have a place that had this kind of format worked out so reviews were written to a standard format.

Today I have to write what is my first do not buy this tool review it is a hard thing for me to do but it has to be written for the safety of woodworkers. The down side is I will write the review and send the advance copy to the manufacture I will ask them to stop selling this product until they modify the design and make it safe. This is the first time I have had to do this in all the years of writing. I feel for the company but I care more about the safety of the woodworker.


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## mbs (May 8, 2010)

I may change my existing reviews to follow a standard format so others can copy/paste if they find it useful.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Barry: "...Gee, I wonder how folks think about MY opinions."

Unfortunately, many people don't think about other opinions, they only react to them.V…"

Like this is new news… *;-)*

Damn Barry, at least PMs are honest..
Michael


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## mbs (May 8, 2010)

Gents,

I took a crack at using questions previously posted and added some questions to it to be used as food for thought when writing a review. I could modify it several ways like putting in a scale from 1-5 for each question, or writing it in paragraph form with standard answers to select from. How would you modify the question to make it better?

What's your woodworking experience? (xx year Professional, xx year hobbyist, xx year beginner)
What do you primarily make (e.g. cutting boards, boxes, outdoor furniture, rustic furniture, tables, chairs, dressers, workbenches, jigs and fixtures)
Do you have a financial or personal relationship with the producer/seller?
How long have you owned the equipment?
Where did you buy it? How much did you pay for it?
How would you rate the tool at performing it's intended function?
What did you use to perform the function before you got this tool?
Do you consider the tool a "must have", "nice to have", or "absolute luxury item". Do you consider the tool one of your favorite tools? 
How does this compare with other brands/models that you have direct experience with? Was there another brand/model that you almost bought but you selected this one instead? What was the deciding factor?
If you were running a business, is this tool so fast and easy to use that it will pay for itself quickly?
Is maintenance, or supplies, spare parts readily available and a good value? 
Does the tool retain its resale value?
Is it safe? If not, why not?
Is it easy to use? 
Easy to adjust? 
Easy to clean? 
Is the overall quality of the equipment up to your standards?
Is this a tool that will last and hold up under use? 
Does it have bearings or bushings? 
Is the run-out excessive? 
Is the surface flat enough? 
Does the motor have a soft start feature? 
Is it variable speed? 
Is the dust collection adequate? 
Are the gears plastic, stamped sheet metal or machined iron? 
Does it vibrate too much? 
How noisy is it, say, compared to your shopvac?
Any sharp edges, dents, dings or missing paint, missing parts? 
Were the assembly instruction useful and how long did it take to assemble it? 
What's your experience with the customer service department and their return policy.


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## JGM0658 (Aug 16, 2011)

To answer your question, not relevant at all. But I do look for bad customer service stories. A tool, and tool purchase is a personal thing. What might be a bad tool for you, might just be the right tool for me. What you might think is expensive I might dismiss as a necessary purchase.

There are a few guys on this forum that I would pay attention to when they post a review. Derek Cohen being one of them.

Now, when I was going to college I was bitching and complaining to a friend about my English composition class. I would tell her I was a science major, why did I need this dumb class that was so hard for me as foreigner. Her response ( to which to this day I remember) was:

"A well written paper is a sign of a clear and ordered mind. It brings to light the fact that the person writing it has command and understanding of the subject being written about. Why would you want your peers to assume that you know what you are talking about if you cannot write properly?"

Smart girl huh? So in that vein, would I trust a review from a person who cannot even write a coherent sentence? Not at all.

As was posted above I consider the source, but most often than not I do not rely on posted reviews.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

When it comes to the major brands, they rarely make a terrible tool. What it boils down to is whether one specific tool is head and shoulders above the rest and if not, which of the tools will fit you and your preferences. The former is generally easy. If one stands stands above the rest you'll hear about it with a little research. The latter is not so easy and may require holding the tool or even using it. Take the PC low profile sander as an example, some reviewers with big hands have said the tool is too large while some reviewers with small hands say it is very comfortable; clearly a case where you need to hold it in your hand to find out if you like it.

Now if a company does put out a bad tool, maybe bad bearings or something that may not appear until after months of ownership, that is where reviews by the masses come into play. A magazine that spends a week or month with the tool may not uncover these issues and may not reveal it if they did.


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

Right on Rick. My Craftsman belt/disk sander is one of those that develops bearing problems even though it was rated at one time a best bang for the buck!

Most major brands DO try to provide the best value because they have competitors that will beat them in the market. Many time it comes down to "brand trust" and customer service. * At one time* Sears and Craftsman excelled on both brand trust and customer service but that was then.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

Apparently Sears is no longer honoring the lifetime warranty on Craftsman tools. I remember taking ancient broken tools in there and getting brand spanking new ones but not anymore I hear.


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

When the new Sears store opened (late 1950, early 1960) my mother started working there and stayed there for 18 years. One evening at dinner she told that a man in coveralls, in my mothers words "he looked like a farmer", came into the hardware department and laid a broken chisel on the counter. He said that he bought the chisel in the Sears store in Minneapolis 25 years ago and it broke! No questions asked, no receipt demanded as it was clearly a Craftsman chisel, so the clerk gave him a replacement.

*Yup, that was the OLD Sears!*


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

A lot! to answer the question in a word ;-)


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

One of the problems the old Sears faces is people like an acquaintance of mine. He would scout yard and garage sales for old Craftsman screwdrivers and tools. He would turn them in for a new one, then sell it at a very good profit margin! ;-((


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## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

Topa, dishonesty is the source of all our problems in our society.
Most people will take advantage of a good system if they can and that will ruin what was good to start with. 
Unfortunately since we all are sinners, that will never change or even get better but only always get worse.( thank you preacher)

About the list that mbs (what is your real name?) created: it is good but too long. 
If we want the people to write reviews we cannot make them painful to write ( like a home work). We should use scroll down menus, so not much typing would be required. The problem with scroll down menus is that they are too limiting , often the correct answer is just not there.
I do not mind answering on line surveys but they are generally too long and after 25 answered questions I give up. If made much shorter then they are incomplete. 
I do not know what a happy middle would be.
I believe that an important information in the reviews, as stated before, is what the targeted audience is :hobby , professional, seasoned craftamn, beginner, money is not concern or on a small budget and so on.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

To mbs-

You put a great deal of effort in that list, but it is quite overwhelming. I've done exactly one review here on LJs, and it was for chisels. Most of the questions you have in the list are N/A, and after plowing through N/A responses to those, it's not likely anyone would finish reading it IF the review was even worth completing.

Big challenge, a 'simple' template that is capable of handling all the things LJs feel compelled to review and post through the kindness of their hearts. As Steve Jobs said, "Simple can be harder than complex….", and in the case of review templates I think it definitely applies.


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## walden (Nov 11, 2012)

Hi Bert:

Haven't we all! I find the reviews helpful. I was recently looking for a good corded 1/2 inch drill for my shop and wanted something that would last a long time. I saw a review about the 5.5 amp Milwaukee Magnum on LJ. The review was good, but the comments were even better. The review helped me shorten my research time. I bought the drill (and they even sent me a Made in USA version!) and I couldn't be happier.

You are right that some reviews are all over the place, but you can't let yourself get too far down in the weeds. There will always be someone who loves the product and someone who hates it. I find the reviews in the middle to be the best indicator of what I should expect.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

I think one of the things I like about the LJ reviews is there is not a template. For me tool reviews go beyond the "how good is the tool". Take for instance my LN #62. It's a very fine tool, well made and as the reviews say it is a well manufactured tool. I just don't find a lot of uses for it and if I had it to do over again I'm not sure I'd buy it. Its got absolutely nothing to do with the tool and everything to do with how I work and the other tools I own.


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## mbs (May 8, 2010)

The "M" stands for Marty.

I agree with the comments about the list. It is long and it's a lot to go through. The list was created based on comments from this post and comments from reviews that were complimented by others.

In Engineering terms we have a contradiction. We want the information in a review that will provide us a good buying decision but we don't want to spend the time to read or write it. Contradictions can be broken. It this case it could be broken, as Bert suggested, by making pull down menus to reduce the time it takes to write a review. It could also be shortened through segmentation, as Smitty eluded to, by having a different set of questions for each class of product (books, machinery, hand tools, shop aids). I don't have any experience working with LJ's staff to implement pull down menus on their website.

Jorge - I had a similar discussion about English with someone I respected and I still remember it today. However, I wouldn't discredit someones review because of their written English skills. I can almost always understand someones message even when their English is very poor. We're all different in our own little ways. I would trust someone with Maloof's skills, even if he didn't speak English, over any Hemingway with novice woodworking experience.

The list was intended to be food for thought when writing a review but based on your feedback I won't to pursue it any further.

Thanks for your candid thoughts.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

I've only done a couple of reviews and I support the K.I.S.S. principle that most of us have at least heard of. Unless there is a litany of issues with a product I like to think I would try and focus on just one or two aspects that might be useful. One review I did focused on a major change/upgrade that the company took regarding their product: http://lumberjocks.com/reviews/1983 . At the time, that point was a significant point for someone consider this tool. Now it is a standard part of this tool.

What I hate is too much detail even if it is accurate, and too much superfluous information such as paint condition, a scratch, a 34-degree bevel that should have been 35-degrees, etc. Bert posted a link to a great example of this kind of superfluous information in post #76, where the guy spent 5 1/2 minutes at the beginning of his video review *before* he finally showed you a nuisance noise that did not even affect the actual functioning of the product.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

Marty, in my engineering field, we assess *before* we design. I believe you had the right intentions and a good theory, just your initial execution may have been a bit flawed.

I think this is a good conversation and has the potential to have something good come out if it. I'd hate to see you give up that easy. As an engineer, when your first design has a flaw, do you fix it, or scrap the project?

I know everyone that commented on your post, and I know none of them were meant as a personal attack, just a difference of opinion.


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## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

We all are different (nothing new here) and this is why it is impossible to please every body.
I really enjoyed this video that the horizontal guy is talking about.
I believe that Mike miss the point of the video which is not a review per se but is about how to remedy to the flaws of this tool.
According to his standards I am anal and I do not apologize for being like that.
I do with my tools exactly what this guy did. I find more pleasure in tuning and tweaking my tools than in using them. I enjoy sharpening a blade to perfection ( or as close to perfection as possible). 
When I am done sharpening a blade or tuning a tool I am not really interested in using it, for me the fun in making the tool or machine as close to perfect as possible.
I am Asperger and as such I am not wired like most people are, but I enjoy being the way I am unfortunately I drive my wife crazy too often

I do not think that any one attacked Marty, I do not see it like that and I do not see that Marty is offended. 
Am I wrong?


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

And 'vertical' Bert, no one was attacking you personally either, so don't act like I was or do (except this time for when you call me that horizontal guy) *;-)*

That video, while it might be entertaining for some, it is also wasteful of others time who are looking solely for pertinent information. I am not saying everything needs to be in shorthand, but be at least within reasonable time frames. No one wants to read *War and Peace* length reviews/videos just to find out that a piece of heat shrink takes care of a nuisance rattle on a tool.

Smile Bert


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## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

Mike I do not feel attacked, I am fine.
I am smiling while I read your post.
I have no problem with you Mike and I like you.
In fact I enjoy reading you and I hope to someday meet you.


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## mbs (May 8, 2010)

I don't feel attacked or offended at all. I feel success with the litmus test I conducted. I spent maybe two hours on the entire list and put it out there to get some feedback. My litmus test was to see if at least half of the responders came back with convergent thoughts. If they did I would invest some time in it. If people came back with divergent thoughts then I wouldn't pursue it. There wasn't any convergency. I'm old enough to recognize that not all ideas are good ideas. It took me a while to figure that out!

I have a decent amount of experience with working though issues similar to this across many industries (insurance, banking, aerospace, automotive, energy). If it were my job to create a review process that best meets the needs of all users I wouldn't give up. But, this is a hobby and I'm semi-retired now. I'm not really looking for a job. Just trying to contribute like the rest of us.

I can also incorporate some of the ideas in my reviews and see what people think who read them. No harm, no foul.


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## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

mbs., may I disagree with you?
I believe that there is convergence; we like the idea and the list but we believe that it is too long and too detailed.
I believe that one could create subcategories that the user and/or the reader could entirely ignore if he wanted to, like finish or comfort of use, value, etc.


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## mbs (May 8, 2010)

Bert - that what was what I meant by "as food for thought when writing a review". Take the questions that apply to your situation and don't comment on the ones that don't apply.


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## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

mbs, so are you willing to continue to explore this subject? 
I personally believe that some good could come out of this.


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## JGM0658 (Aug 16, 2011)

I would trust someone with Maloof's skills, even if he didn't speak English, over any Hemingway with novice woodworking experience.

Fair enough, how about a guy who calls himself a "professional" reviewer, whose native language is English and still cannot use punctuation, has terrible spelling and cannot write a coherent sentence. Would you trust this "professional"'s review?


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## mbs (May 8, 2010)

Bert - I may spend a little more time on the process by modifying my reviews to see what comes of it. It doesn't necessarily need to be one persons project either. You all are welcome to help me, improve what I create, or create your own version.

Jorge - I would trust a professional WOODWORKER if their english was poor. But I would probably apply a fudge factor to someone who claims to be a PRO REVIEWER who has poor english skills (unless they have someone who professionally edits their response). In the case of a tool review i'm mostly interested in the content of the message and not how the messenger sends it. I't a bonus to me if the English is correct.

I consider my English skills at least average. But, on occasion when it's very important to me to be grammatically correct I will ask someone with great skills to edit my document before publishing it. For example, if I'm writing something that will be read by the CEO, Board of Directors … However, I would't ask anyone to edit my review on a hobbits website like LJ's because I feel the members can tolerate a bit of grammatical incorrectness and laziness. Some people will take the time to correct the homophone errors they see on LJ's like (byte and bite). But, I'm not sure they have the best intentions when they're making the comment.


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## revanson11 (Jan 5, 2012)

As you can see from my posting today on how I approached the environment in my shop, if it hadn't been for LJ I wouldn't have been near as successful. I use this forum all the time to find solutions.


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## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

Randy, thank you for your comment.

mbs, ultimately the webmaster will decide what he wants to do or not about the reviews, we can only suggest improvements.
Thank you for your willingness to spend some more time on this project.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

'... a hobbits website like LJ's…'

I'm going to have to visit the urban slang dictionary, or something like it, to find out what that meant. Expanding my vocabulary - another benefit of LJs.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

Closest I could come to would mean LJs is short in stature. So now you know!

As for me, the reviews I write will relay the things about a product or service that I find interesting or relevant, and may not be what others would find to be relevant or interesting. And you know what? That's fine with me, because all the content on LJs can be viewed within the same context.

Good topic, Bert, thanks.


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## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

Snoopy , you are very welcome


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## mbs (May 8, 2010)

Just when I was trying to write something without errors I end up with Hobbits instead of Hobbyist. And the sad thing is I probably read it three times before I posted the reply.


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## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

mbs, no body is perfect, mistakes are allowed


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## mbs (May 8, 2010)

Using the questions we created I modified my review of the Festool RO 90 DX Rotex Sander. It did take more time to do the review but I feel it's more informative than it was. It was handy to have the questions as a memory jogger. the questions could be organized better though. Not sure if it's too lengthy for most readers. Maybe I'll get some feedback.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

Something to keep in mind, both good and bad reviews can be correct and can be a sign of poor quality control.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

It is difficult to be specific when discussing DC'S or table saws or anything for that matter. There are many ways to accomplish something and will be different for each person. Where you live will determine how you design a DC system. For example, I live in a rural area where the nearest neighbor is 1/4 mile away, so that means I can direct sawdust directly to the outdoors without any collection bags or filters. That is surely the most direct system and least costly. Others may live in a built-up area where neighbors are close. That will require consideration as to noise and dust. Ultimately, the right answer will depend on your particular circumstances. But you already know that. Any and all replies will be from personal experience.
As far as reviews go, I don't put too much faith in them. They may be good for comparison purposes, but reviewers have their own prejudices, likes and dislikes. It's like saying this wine is good and this one is lousy; it's a matter of personal taste and no one can dictate taste. The fashion and culinary industry is notorious for dictating taste, but what *intelligent *person really falls for that load of crap?


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

Jorge G, People who are poor in language skills will always be at a disadvantage when it comes to convincing the public. But if the audience is also language compromised, the reviewer can succeed in getting his message across. Politicians have staffs who write their speeches and correct their spelling and grammar. If it wasn't for that, he would lack credibility. When a politician makes a speaking error in public, it is quickly picked up and counts as points against his credibility. That is why language and especially the English language is so important for us to speak and write well. 60 years ago, we learned how to read and write correctly. Today, this is lost to giving in to those who want to speak the language in their own way.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

mbs, no body is perfect, mistakes are allowed

-Bert
But not always tolerated. We must always strive for perfection and although achieving complete perfection is not possible, we should still pursue it.


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## JGM0658 (Aug 16, 2011)

MrRon, you are preaching to the choir here. What I find unpardonable is the excuse that this is "only" a forum and as such you do not need to write properly. It not only displays ignorance but also a lack of respect for those reading your post.


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

Some politicians, our previous POTUS, did not use his writers very well or they were as incompetent as he when it came to communication skills. Yet he got elected twice … go figure!


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

Jorge's attacks are geared toward me. He is a little man with Napoleon syndrome. Because I dont really care what he thinks or does he is obsessed with meager attempts to defame me. He calls himself a pro and yet has no projects posted on this or better yet on his own site. He has never helped a fellow LJ he does not give tools to those less fortunate than himself or does he teach anyone how to build anything. If you cant see he is a third world Pampas ass that not one company would do business with because he thinks he is better than his work shows he is. he is like a third grader following me around this site and trying to defame me.

What Jorge does not understand is tool companies like me they dont like you and whining about your misfortune is getting old go back to your Barrio and let the gentlemen converse Jorge

As I RECALL A FEW MONTHS AGO YOU WERE GOING TO DAZZLE US WITH YOUR NEW BREATHTAKING WORK.

NEVER HAPPENED>


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## JGM0658 (Aug 16, 2011)

LOL…..aahh men it is so easy to push this guy's buttons. See what I mean about not being able to write a coherent sentence? And this is a "professional" reviewer? As I posted, something well written is a sign of a clear mind…..so far all I see is mud. )


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## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

more personal attacks? What is with everyone these days? Respect, people, respect!


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## JGM0658 (Aug 16, 2011)

Well, I think it was the same mr. thedude50 (what a dumb handle) who posted that there was no shame in exposing the truth. Funny how he loves to dish it out, but goes running to MsDebbie when some is sent his way….LOL.


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## mbs (May 8, 2010)

I'll make an attempt to get this thread back on track.

Some of you asked me to spend a bit more time on the review process. I did and I'm waiting for feedback. It doesn't matter to me if you currently have a need for the tool, but I would like to evaluate the review as if you might have interest in getting it someday. Did the review help you make a better purchasing decision than you would have through other research methods?

Did you learn something that you didn't know that was helpful?
Was the review too long or too short?
Too technical or not technical enough?
Answered your question or missed the mark? if it missed the mark, what should have been changed?

Thanks,


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

I didn't run to anyone . Stop stalking me Jorge . Show your work or go home.


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## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

mbs, is this the review you are talking about?
http://lumberjocks.com/reviews/3122


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## mbs (May 8, 2010)

No. I modified the festool RO 90 sander review.


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## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

I just read the review, it is excellent but not knowing how it was before the modifications I cannot judge of the improvements. sorry.


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## mbs (May 8, 2010)

I don't believe it's important to see the before and after. Just need feedback on the current review.

thanks,


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## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

I believe that format of your review is excellent


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## doninvegas (Jun 10, 2010)

For me it's just another part of my research when I'm considering a tool buy. I soak it all in and then make my own decision.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

OK Bert, since you have requested… Here is my review of the *Harbor Freight Belt Sander Conversion to a Belt Sharpening System*.

http://lumberjocks.com/reviews/3179


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## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

I read your review Mike and I left a comment. 
Thank you for the review


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## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

The confusion continues. 
We have a been reading again and again how important it is to keep our shop air clean and to capture and eliminate fine dust particles which lodge in our lungs and might cause cancer. 
So we, almost all of us, are very concerned about this and we spend money on DCs and air filters ans so on.

Well this morning I was reading a post on LJ of someone who built an inexpensive fan/filter during the weekend and I read this comment from someone else:

"Snowfrog, a pre-filter is a good idea, but probably not neccessary or effective. Sawdust is 30 microns or larger. We can visually see starting at about 40 microns in size. A MERV 4 filter is all that is necessary to collect such particles. If you want to capture aerosolized finish particles, you might need to get up to a MERV 8. Beyond that your trying to capture such small particles that you'll be reducing the air-flow by having too much filter. HEPA is absolute overkill and counterproductive. Most of the cheap blue fiberglass filters are MERV 1 which the sawdust particles will just go through. If they're big enough to be stopped by that cheap filter, they won't be airborne, so for a downdraft table, or a horizontal collector might be fine but would be plugging up all the time. A MERV 4 pleated 2" or 4" would be perfect."

http://www.airpurifierguide.org/faq/merv-ratings
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/particle-sizes-d_934.html
This is from CueballRosendaul

so if CueballRosendaul is correct ( I have no reason to say that he is not, I just do not know) all our 0.5 air filters are very expensive overkill and unnecessary.
Is this correct? 
Who to believe? 
Bill Pentz or CueballRosendaul?

I believe that this really replies to my question starting this post: is reading all this post and review helpful or just confusing?

I believe that the proof is in the pudding and that, at least for me, most of the time these posts are just confusing. 
I do no know, for sure, more about the "real truth " about air filtration this morning than I did one year ago. I do not know what to believe and what I really need to do to be safe in my shop.

May be this is just me not understanding what I read.

I am not talking about an excellent reviews like the one that Mike wrote yesterday. After reading his review there is not hesitation possible. I know what he says and what he recommends. Thank you again Mike


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## mbs (May 8, 2010)

it's very confusing because the manufacturers will tell you what you want to hear so they will sell their products. You want to trust them because supposedly have done the engineering to support their product. But, there are some really smart people on LJ's and across the web that sound believable too yet they don't always agree. And we rarely know what their experience/education is on the subject.

I consulted for many years. We tried to get fact based information We consistently asked the question "how do you know what you know" When we got answers like "we've just always done it this way", or "that's what I was told" then we didn't put any credence in the idea (unless it had a scientific basis like newtons laws). But when someone had data that they collected using a measurement system that was validated then and we knew the conditions in which the data was collected it carried a lot of weight. And, the data frequently disagreed with what was considered "common knowledge".

Sometimes teams solving a problem would get into analysis paralysis and stop making headway. One of the sayings that applies to many projects, but not all, is "Don't let BEST get in the way of BETTER". It's another way of saying incremental improvement is ok unless you're in a all-or-nothing scenario like going to the moon. The dust collection topic is like that for me. I'll continue to try to make it better. Hopefully manufactures of tools will do the same (like miter saws - I'm in the same boat you're in. I don't have an effective solution either).


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

your a bit off topic with this and i think this should be its own thread. this is a very important topic Bert and well wort a thread. i suggest you write this as a new thread.


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## mbs (May 8, 2010)

It is a bit off topic but the point is do you believe what people say on LJ's regardless of whether it's a review or another topic. There are a lot of DC threads right now to chime in on.


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## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

I am not off the topic at all. 
The topic of this post is: how useful reviews and posts are to help to you to make decision? 
My point is that too often they confuse me more than they help me, to see more clearly, posts more than reviews
The post above is clearly confusing me more than helping me


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

I would do my own research on the topic Bert there is plenty of data out there . the best way to protect your self wen making fine dust is a n95 mask I always wear one when making fine dust or when working with presser treated wood or and of coarse spalted wood must wear a mask then as well. because no telling what the mold in the wood will do to you. Most important thing is to work safe all of this can be seen if you watch the American woodshop Scott may not be the best woodworker in the world be he does everything by the book no safety violations and no we took the guard off for video purposes if the guard can be used he uses it . If you should be wearing a mask he tells you he is a solid woodworker and a nice guy who actually cares about people not like all the guys who break all the safety rules then tell you well i have never been hurt so it must be OKAY

And my point was this would be a good topic on it own you may get some better information on this topic. stop thinking people are against you and read the core of the message i dont care that i feel it was off topic I care more that you get the information you seek.


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## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

" stop thinking people are against you" 
I never thought that any one was against me.
I wear not a dust mask but respirator most of the time when I am sanding but not for other operations
Thank you Lance


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

if you wear your mask the air in the shop wont be a concern after the dust settles. but those fine particles stay air born a long time so after sanding you may want to wear a mask for a few hours unless you vent the shop well.


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