# Client wanting flooring from 100y/o Poplar joists. Where to start?



## GuntherBespoke (Aug 23, 2017)

I have a client who's pretty big money, and she wants approx 1500sqft of flooring made from old poplar removed from various old cabins and plantation homes she collects and disassembles. She does this so she can use all period accurate lumber for fixing up the plantation home she is choosing to fix up and live in.

The joists she has are mostly 10' - 16' long, and approx 4"x7" cross section. They carry a risk of nails on one edge only. I'll be able to get 2 to 4 boards from each joist.

She'll be needing some cut to 13/16" and some to 1 1/8", and is happy to have mixed widths (bundled in 1/2" increments I imagine). She needs it all tongue and grooved.

She gave me one plank but not enough to dry run a whole section and multiply out the quantities to provide a quote. But it was easy enough for me to joint a face, joint an edge (opposite from naily side), and rip off the nail side at the table saw with good clearance from any stray nails (with cheap blade just in case, but metal detector is on the way). From there I can rip at the bandsaw, plane 1/16" off to clean up, and mold.

I understand the formulas in selling my work, but I do not want to undersell myself on what will be a long and grueling project. I have no idea of accurately guessing my time, but I'm happy to go with whatever fair market value would be on this order, and take the bell curve of chance in terms of ending up a little over or under what I usually make per hour.

I've never done a job like this, so literally have zero idea on whether I could start my quote/negotiations at $1sqft or $5.

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated. This lady is a reliable client, friendly acquaintance, and very well connected with the 'old' money in my area. However, I don't want to give her the impression that I'm pulling numbers out my butt, which is what I would be doing right now. I'm a one man shop, but I have all I need for this job.


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

Sounds like a one of a kind job.
If I were faced with this task I would see how long and what it takes to run 1 square. Or a 10' x10' square ft area.
And use it as a mock up see if your customer like it. 
Then you as least have a idea what you can realistically do.
No one will know better then you what you can do and how long it takes.

Good luck sounds like fun


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## Snipes (Apr 3, 2012)

so your making the flooring and installing? how about finishing? mill up a 16' joist and keep track of your time like aj recommended. If she trusts you I would do T&M. If I were to guess I would say 3$ a sq' to make it


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## shawnn (Aug 30, 2014)

Could you use the prices of lumber mills in the area for the milling/cutting operations if you do the work? Maybe contract a large mill to do the cutting and milling then charge separately for your tasks.


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## GuntherBespoke (Aug 23, 2017)

Thanks for the replies so far, I understand that quote posts can be irritating.

To clarify, I am not installing or finishing. I would be taking the reclaimed joists (~4"x7"x10'-16') and milling them into floorboards. So, joint, plane, rip, route the t&g, done. Approx 1500sqft.


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## GrantA (Jul 19, 2014)

That's a lot of milling in a 1-man shop, make sure you allow for consumables in your quote (blades/cutters due to dulling and nails)


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## bndawgs (Oct 21, 2016)

If it were me, I might be tempted to look for a bandsaw mill nearby to cut up the joists for me. Then i would just have to run them through the planer and rout the T&G


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## ArtMann (Mar 1, 2016)

How big and powerful is your band saw? How big and powerful is your shaper? Do you have power feed? How powerful is your planer? There is a certain economy of scale here. The equipment available to you will determine your success or failure just as much as the price per square foot.


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## tomsteve (Jan 23, 2015)

id say what youre doing is considered reclaimed wood flooring. sell yourself short and ya wont enjoy doing the work then have a client that thinks theyll get something for nothing- someone that will tell the rest of old money that,too. $3 sq ft ish


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## Jared_S (Jul 6, 2018)

Unless by all the tools necessary you mean a straight line rip saw, a 5 head moulder and associated machines I think you are under estimating the level of effort and accuracy required.

Even if you were going to try to do it with a shaper and feeder, t&g flooring heads are over $1k and the finished flooring dimensional accuracy will still be sub-par to a feed through moulder


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## GuntherBespoke (Aug 23, 2017)

Right.. I don't own any of those.. But she knows what my shop is capable of and wants to use me. She plans to have the newly milled flooring installed mixed with original flooring, then have it all sanded down flush. I'm not saying that means I can or would ever do sloppy work, but perhaps the tolerances in mass production factories are not something I need to rate myself against. It's a pre-civil war plantation home that's being renovated. She had it picked up and moved to a new location on the opposite side of the county. There's not a right angle in the place and she despises 'perfect' looking things. I know it sounds like I'm trying to make excuses or downplay the commitment the job will take, but I just want to provide some additional context for you all.

$3sqft has been thrown out there a couple times now. I may put forward a quote of $4sqft for the first 500sqft, then we can both sit down and reassess after that's done.


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## Jared_S (Jul 6, 2018)

What do you plan on milling the edge profiles with?

1500 sqft, assuming you net 5" wide boards after all the milling is 3,600 lineal feet (7200' of edge profiling.)

It might be worth while to check owwm for similar topics. 
http://www.owwm.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=200652


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## ssnvet (Jan 10, 2012)

I'd think Poplar would be too soft for flooring. I hope she's prepared to see it get all scuffed up.


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## Kirk650 (May 8, 2016)

Well, the customer is always right, so if she wants poplar give her Poplar. That said, poplar isn't a great choice for floors. If she wants period floors, she'd be better off with reclaimed heart pine, cypress, or white oak.


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

I bet that old popler is plenty hard for flooring. Might even be harder then Chinese Arithmetic.
Some reclaimed woods are very different then what we see today on lumber racks.
Just go for it mark and don't listen to buzz killers. 
Good luck


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## Snipes (Apr 3, 2012)

This is a lot of work, but it's not like it's not doable. I agree with the comment about using a band mill to slice it.


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## GuntherBespoke (Aug 23, 2017)

I spoke to a few friends and ended up having a conversation with a guy who owns a reclaimed flooring company about 250 miles away. He said they buy their reclaimed lumber at about $1ft and sell it for $7. The difference, $6, is what they figure for their costs and profit in the labor of milling it, so he said that's what he'd charge a client who approaches them with their own lumber. Add onto that about a day of de-nailing at $75/hr.

I called the client and we agreed to do the first 500feet at $5/ft, and reassess after that if either of us is unhappy.

Regarding the resawing, I'll have to think on that. My bandsaw isn't capable, so I'm either upgrading it or analyzing whether using a friend's band mill on it. I'm concerned about the wastage I'll get, and if I'm going to have to rejoint and plane it again then I'd rather just take the same amount of time and go slow on a new bandsaw.

Once again, your input is very much appreciated. This is going to be a pretty physically challenging job but I'm certainly looking forward to it.


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## Snipes (Apr 3, 2012)

Out of curiosity why do you need some at 11/8". seems like you could save on material there. if it's for floor height you could put plywood underneath or have a tapered threshold. 
you would get a little more waste with sawmill but not that much. and it would be so much quicker, i wouldn't think twice about it.


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## GrantA (Jul 19, 2014)

Definitely use the band mill. Still upgrade your saw but for other jobs. I wouldn't even want to deal with the infeed & outfeed supports needed for this in my shop.


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## GuntherBespoke (Aug 23, 2017)

Spoke to this good friend of mine who owns the band mill, and it turns out he owns a 4 sided shaper also, with all the bits.

So new plan is to spend a few days denailing, then handle it at the bandmill, rip at the table saw then shape.


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## Jared_S (Jul 6, 2018)

> Spoke to this good friend of mine who owns the band mill, and it turns out he owns a 4 sided shaper also, with all the bits.
> 
> So new plan is to spend a few days denailing, then handle it at the bandmill, rip at the table saw then shape.
> 
> - Mark


That should turn a few weeks into a few days.

I was going to mention that basing your rate off a manufacturer of reclaimed flooring (unless you have the identical machinery and experience) would not be a good metric.

Assuming you would be using a small to medium shaper (5 to 7.5 hp) and power feed you could realistically expect 20 feet per minute per side of the flooring. Having to do both sides would knock that down to 10 fpm combined. 3600 lineal would be 360 minutes or 6 hours non stop end to end feeding. With handling, setup, knife changes and dust removal it would increase by a factor of 4 at least.

If you were going to use a router.. well honestly I don't think you would finish, but if you could get 5 feet per minute per edge you would be going really well. 2.5 combined for both sides 3600 feet.. 24 hours non stop.

Resaw on a decent 5hp resaw machine (minimax 20) and a feeder would again be about 6 to 10 feet per minute

Hand jointing… maybe 10 feet a minute if you could do it non stop. Realistically way less than that.

Planing, most 15 or 20" 4 post planers run at 16 feet per minute on the finishing pass, assuming 2 passes (top and bottom) 8 feet per minute net..

Assuming you friend has a remotely capable moulder you should be running somewhere between 25 to 75 feet per minute hitting all four sides at once. It's so much faster it's not even comparable.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

Jared_S, that's an incredible answer. Seriously. Thanks for posting, it's great to get a glimpse into how that should be looked at.

Good luck mark, you got a ton of good intel with your OP.


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