# Vises/Mind Reeling



## mfhall (Aug 28, 2017)

Hi folks,

I'm just finishing up one project (a mobile work station for my planer and compressor) and now am looking to the next. I've started on two tables. One will be a 8 ft. long table that will double as an extension table for my radial arm saw. The other will be a heavy duty workbench/assembly table approximately 4ft x 6ft. that will go in the middle of the room. I already have most of the material for both and many of the pieces are already cut. The big question now is whether I should add a vise to one or both tables and what kind of vise. I'd like to make up my mind before I start rather than do what I normally do-keep remaking the plan in midstream.

Right now I have a small 3i. x 7i. Columbian metal-jaw vise I was going to attach to the end of the long table, but that doesn't seem to be enough. I've looked at tail vises, Moxon vises, leg vises, end vises and quick-release metal jaw vises, including the Wilton Vise with the pivoting head.

I don't do much hand tool work right now, but down the road I might. Another option is to just leave the vises out, put some T-tracks in the long table and build one of those mini workbenches from FW using the Columbian vise I already have.

Any suggestions? I'm really completely confused and tired of thinking about this.

Floyd


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## MrWolfe (Jan 23, 2018)

My choice would be a large face or end vise that is flush with the surface… add some dog holes and some dogs and you can always mount your columbian metal jaw vise on a piece of plywood with a cleat on the bottom that would allow you to clamp the metal vise in the face vise.


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## mfhall (Aug 28, 2017)

> My choice would be a large face or end vise that is flush with the surface… add some dog holes and some dogs and you can always mount your columbian metal jaw vise on a piece of plywood with a cleat on the bottom that would allow you to clamp the metal vise in the face vise.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The problem is I already picked and purchased the basic material for the table top, which is 1 1/4i. MDF. I don't think it would be good for bench dogs. I picked it for flatness and weight. Bench dogs would require a substantial change in design and right now, for instance, I don't use hand planes. I only use power tools.

Floyd


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## bigJohninvegas (May 25, 2014)

So just an idea, or more of an observation. My bench top is two layers of 3/4" baltic birch ply wood. I have a couple friends with really nice rubio style benches. both are pro woodworkers, and they keep there benches covered with a sheet of 3/4 mdf. The dogs work fine, and when the mdf gets beat up they replace it, or in some cases flip it. 
I too do not do much hand tool work. I was looking into some pretty pricey vises from Lee Valley Veritas and Lie Nielsen. 
In the end I went with a quick release steel bench vise from Lee valley. Not the Veritas line, but still nice. 
http://www.leevalley.com/us/Wood/page.aspx?p=49980&cat=1,41659
I did get the larger of the three, and I see the price has gone up a bit. 
I also had a couple of vintage pony hold down clamps that I had been holding on too for some time. 
Added them in, and they work great. Ponyjorgensen is back, but only a few products are available at this time. 
https://ponyjorgensen.com/products/specialty-clamps/









I don't think there is a right or wrong answer to what vise to use. Really a personal thing, what works for you. 
Maybe check out Lee valleys vise page. Its a good selection to see what sort of vises are out there. 
I was really wanting a couple different Veritas vises, but after a year plus planning a bench I just could not justify it for myself. 
http://www.leevalley.com/us/Wood/Index.aspx
good luck.


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## mfhall (Aug 28, 2017)

To change the subject a little. I've been looking at the Kreg benching clamping systems. It might actually work better. I can just mortise in a couple of their so-called Universal Clamp Tracks and maybe one of their plate systems. Then use their hold down clamps. It's a little pricey, but no pricier than a couple table vises, and they are a lot easier to install.

Anybody have any experience with this stuff?

Floyd


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## fritzer1210 (May 5, 2017)

Have you considered making a moxon vise? I plan to make one in the near several weeks. The biggest advantage for me is that it will not be fixed permanently to my already limited bench and that I will still have access to my bench vise when needed. Plenty of instructional videos on U-Tube. Best wishes


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## WayneC (Mar 8, 2007)

I've seen the Kreg and have Rockler t tracks in my drill press table. Make sure they are secure in MDF.

Also, fritzer is on to something in general. You could clamp fixtures to your bench for specific uses in addition to the T tracks. I have dog holes and end vices on my bench, but I have a vice mounted like the one Mr. Wolf has that I can drop in an end vise and clamp down. I have a planing stop that I can attach to the bench. I have a number of bench hooks that I use for sawing and such. I have a shooting board for use with a hand plane. So it may not be a single answer.


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## MrWolfe (Jan 23, 2018)

There are some great ideas here…

A couple of ideas: 
you could add a second layer of the mdf in the areas where you place dogholes. I would not use holdfasts in these but any of the other clamps would be good. Even the inexpensive F-clamps can work very well if you leave enough room beneath the table to access it. This video has a lot of options for using clamps and vises with a table.






The other option if you go the t-track route, like WayneC has mentioned, MDF may blow out over time if you apply too much pressure to the clamps and with the tools you use. I would consider using washers and nuts on the bottom surface to secure the track . The larger surface area will help prevent that blow out from clamping pressure.

And like Fritzer has pointed out, a portable moxon vise is a great idea. There are some great moxon vise designs that simply clamp to the edge of the work table and use the really inexpensive but beefy barbell/dumbell threaded bars with the big star nuts. You can use that on about any surface you can clamp to the edge of.






Wolfe


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## PPK (Mar 8, 2016)

It really boils down to what's right for you! I personally just have a simple face vise, and it works great for 99% of the stuff I do, which is mostly power tool work and some hand tool.









https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B005W16LVE/ref=oh_aui_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1!https://storage.googleapis.com/aws-s3-lumberjocks-com/pm9bmx1.jpg!

If you get into dovetails and handwork, the moxon is great, but can be easily clamped into a face vise or other method of attachement.

One of the items that get used the most on my bench are the holdfasts. It's really easy to drill dog holes and get a pair of holdfasts. I use these as much or more than my vise.









https://toolsforworkingwood.com/store/item/MS-HOLDFAST.XX?searchterm=holdfast

And finally, ditto to Mr Wolfe. You can easily clamp your metal working vise into/onto your bench and have yet another great option for clamping.

Oh, T-tracks have their limitations. I don't think I'd like them on a workbench.


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## mfhall (Aug 28, 2017)

> Have you considered making a moxon vise? I plan to make one in the near several weeks. The biggest advantage for me is that it will not be fixed permanently to my already limited bench and that I will still have access to my bench vise when needed. Plenty of instructional videos on U-Tube. Best wishes
> 
> - fritzer1210


Yeah, I've been looking at those videos, too. Also at something called a Milkman's workbench and the Fine Woodworking mini-bench, which like the Moxon bench can go on top of of an existing workbench.


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## mfhall (Aug 28, 2017)

Thanks all. These clamp tracks are pretty heavy duty, but that's why I was asking-I was worried about them tearing out with heavy use (and I tend to be pretty hard on tools). Using big washers is an excellent idea and the MDF is 1 1/4i thick, so I figure they should hold and they can also be used to set up to make face frames for cabinets, which is also good. Anyway, here's what I'm looking at:

https://www.kregtool.com/store/c34/clamping-accessories/p364/universal-clamp-traktrade-kit--27-45/

Then I could add a couple of these strategically:

https://www.kregtool.com/store/c29/bench-clamps/p396/bench-clamp-system/

https://www.kregtool.com/store/c29/bench-clamps/p393/heavy-duty-bench-clamp-system/

Most of what I do right now tends to be just holding stuff down for work with a router, sanders, circular saw and chisels, so I shouldn't put too much strain on these things. I will be bugged if they bend or tear out, however, because the tracks are not cheap. And of course figuring out how to place these things in combination is another set of headaches. But I do like the face frame utility because I do plan to do some cabinet work and they are easy to install. If I require heavy duty work, I can go back to my Bessey bar clamps. They never fail me.

So this is the way I'll probably go and I'll keep looking at these benchtop vise designs for when I decide to do hand tool work.

Thanks again,

Floyd


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## mfhall (Aug 28, 2017)

Hey,

Check this out. It's pretty brilliant.






Floyd


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

This is my choice for a multipurpose vise!
The Zylis portable vise










My dad bought mine for me over 45 years ago and even though it looks ugly this thing is a charm.


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## mfhall (Aug 28, 2017)

> This is my choice for a multipurpose vise!
> The Zylis portable vise
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting, but a little pricey.


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

have a look here 
and here

there is also a "vise of your dream" thread


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## mfhall (Aug 28, 2017)

> have a look here
> and here
> 
> there is also a "vise of your dream" thread
> ...


Might as well just pack me off to the nut house. But thanks.

Floyd


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## mfhall (Aug 28, 2017)

Hi all,

I went to the woodworking store to look at this Kreg stuff. The so-called Universal Clamp Trak is fairly heavy duty. It connects by drilling holes up from underneath the table, then slotting 1/4 nuts into the outer channels on the underside of the track, It seems like that would be sturdy enough, but they want a pair of bolts spaced every four inches, so for a 60i table you're looking at 30 nuts and bolts for one track running length-wise. If I do two and add the two 27i tracks, you're looking at roughly 90. At any rate, you don't have to worry about counter-sinking screw holds into the track itself, so that's good. And if you set them up properly (i.e., perfectly square to one another), they can also serve as a clamping system for face frames. That's good, too.

About the only hold up would be the cost. If I got two track kits (one 69i track and one 27i track in each) for the big table, plus two plate kits (which include 3i clamps) for the little table and throw in two more 6i clamps and a couple extras, I're looking at something in the line of $400. Cheap? No, it is not. But it is versatile. Anyway, I'll keep looking at this until I'm absolutely sure I know what I want.

Floyd


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## MPython (Nov 30, 2018)

I have a quick release face vise on my radial arm saw bench. It is immediately behind my main workbench. The vise comes in handy when the vises on my workbench ore occupied to blocked. I don't think you can have too many vises. If I were you, I'd put one on both tables. Which kind depends on the way you work. I do a lot of hand work. All of my planing is done on my workbench. I don't think I'd find a tail vise on an auxiliary table/bench very handy - but that's just me. Also, I think any vise that protrudes above the work surface would interfere with the work surface function the auxiliary table. But again, that's just my opinion.


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## mfhall (Aug 28, 2017)

> I have a quick release face vise on my radial arm saw bench. It is immediately behind my main workbench. The vise comes in handy when the vises on my workbench ore occupied to blocked. I don t think you can have too many vises. If I were you, I d put one on both tables. Which kind depends on the way you work. I do a lot of hand work. All of my planing is done on my workbench. I don t think I d find a tail vise on an auxiliary table/bench very handy - but that s just me. Also, I think any vise that protrudes above the work surface would interfere with the work surface function the auxiliary table. But again, that s just my opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, these tracks would mortise into the table, so they wouldn't be in the way. Anyway, I'm still making my mind up about all this. I was thinking about putting a small vise at the end of my RAS extension table, pretty much like you've got here, but a small metal-jaw woodworkers vise that I have sitting around right now.

Can I ask what kind of RAS is that? It looks very similar to mine, a DeWalt 7790. Did you do the Mr. Sawdust table? How much did you leave for cross-cut-15i? And how did you put the fence together?

Floyd


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

Another option is use the Paul Sellers "vise in a vise" method for a while. Just get a $15 harbor freight clamp, reinforce with wood and stick it in the vise you have. You may like it or may be enough in order to save up to buy what you want. Worst case scenario is you don't like it and end up with an upgraded sash clamp https://paulsellers.com/2013/03/the-paul-sellers-vise-clamp-system-or/


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## MPython (Nov 30, 2018)

> Can I ask what kind of RAS is that? It looks very similar to mine, a DeWalt 7790. Did you do the Mr. Sawdust table? How much did you leave for cross-cut-15i? And how did you put the fence together?
> 
> Floyd
> 
> - Floyd Hall


Floyd,the RAS is an old Delta/Rockwell 900. My father bought it new sometime in the 1950s. It is set up for crosscutting, but with very little effort I can remove the fence and use it in any other configuration. It has about 15" of crosscut capacity. The long fence is an adaptation of a miter gauge extension that was published in Wood Magazine (I think - might have been American Woodworker) years ago; I just made a long one. It is simple to make out of two, straight 3/4" boards (I used maple because it's stable). I've posted a photo of a cross section of the fence so you can see how it was shaped. I made two hinged stops using brass knife hinges (photo below). They lock to the fence with "T" slot bolts. The fence is attached to the bench with heavy aluminum "L" brackets (see photo below).


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## dhazelton (Feb 11, 2012)

You could mount the machinist vise to a stand, like a car wheel and pipe and then move it out of the way when you don't need it. There are tons of ways to hold a piece. You could even get away with no vice for a while if you improvise.


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## mfhall (Aug 28, 2017)

> You could mount the machinist vise to a stand, like a car wheel and pipe and then move it out of the way when you don t need it. There are tons of ways to hold a piece. You could even get away with no vice for a while if you improvise.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, I don't do a lot of hand tool work right now, but I might want to try some down the road. As I said above, I've looked at various "mini-vises" that just go atop an existing bench. Fine Woodworking has one, but others are the Moxon vise and the so-called "Milkman's vise." What I need right now is hold downs for routing, sanding, a circular saw, some chiseling and whatnot. I'm working with Bessey bar clamps now, but they're a little awkward and clumsy. I know I need some sort of vise/clamping system, but I've had a devil of a time figuring out which one. Right now, I'm leaning toward the Kreg system. It's a little pricey, but it's versatile and it won't be in the way.

Anyway, I'll go through the Sellers articles and see what else is out there. Probably make a call to Kreg, then make up my mind over the weekend.

Floyd


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## mfhall (Aug 28, 2017)

> Floyd,the RAS is an old Delta/Rockwell 900. My father bought it new sometime in the 1950s. It is set up for crosscutting, but with very little effort I can remove the fence and use it in any other configuration. It has about 15" of crosscut capacity. The long fence is an adaptation of a miter gauge extension that was published in Wood Magazine (I think - might have been American Woodworker) years ago; I just made a long one. It is simple to make out of two, straight 3/4" boards (I used maple because it s stable). I ve posted a photo of a cross section of the fence so you can see how it was shaped. I made two hinged stops using brass knife hinges (photo below). They lock to the fence with "T" slot bolts. The fence is attached to the bench with heavy aluminum "L" brackets (see photo below).
> 
> - MPython


Great. Like I said, I've been looking at the Kreg setup for a fence with stops. And again it's a little pricey.

One more question. You didn't leave much room to the right of the saw. I've talked to people who say center the saw along the wall, but I was thinking about offsetting it a little to the right so I have a little more cutting space (say 12' to 15') on the left because I might eventually do a little beam work. Do you ever have to cut from the right side of the saw?

Floyd


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## MPython (Nov 30, 2018)

> One more question. You didn t leave much room to the right of the saw. I ve talked to people who say center the saw along the wall, but I was thinking about offsetting it a little to the right so I have a little more cutting space (say 12 to 15 ) on the left because I might eventually do a little beam work. Do you ever have to cut from the right side of the saw?
> 
> Floyd
> 
> - Floyd Hall


I placed the saw off center on purpose to leave myself a lot of room on the bench of other work. It has never been a problem. Anytime I need to crosscut a long piece, I cut it to the left of the blade. Often, however, I cut short pieces - up to 48" - to the right of the saw. It leaves me plenty of room on either side to crosscut anything I need for my work. I have about 7' to the left of the blade - more if I don't use the tape measure - and 4' to the right of the blade. It's plenty. I don't recall having ever been in situation where I couldn't crosscut what I needed because my saw was offset. I don't know what I would gain by placing the blade in the middle of my saw bench.


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## mfhall (Aug 28, 2017)

> I placed the saw off center on purpose to leave myself a lot of room on the bench of other work. It has never been a problem. Anytime I need to crosscut a long piece, I cut it to the left of the blade. Often, however, I cut short pieces - up to 48" - to the right of the saw. It leaves me plenty of room on either side to crosscut anything I need for my work. I have about 7 to the left of the blade - more if I don t use the tape measure - and 4 to the right of the blade. It s plenty. I don t recall having ever been in situation where I couldn t crosscut what I needed because my saw was offset. I don t know what I would gain by placing the blade in the middle of my saw bench.
> - MPython


Well, My space is about 25' by 15'. After agonizing forever about whether to buy a table saw with a 52i fence that could do longer cross-cuts, but otherwise would take up the whole center of the room, I landed on the idea of an RAS in combination with a dedicated ripping saw. I plan on doing virtually all the crosscut work, and a good portion of my dado work, on the RAS. Meanwhile, I bought an old arn 12i table saw. That will be used pretty much exclusively for ripping. Seems like the best use of the space. Now I'm just figuring out the final details on the work tables. There will actually be three including the extension table for the RAS. I have all the wood and most of the pieces for two of them have already been cut. I just have to work out the vise/clamping system and start putting them together.

Floyd


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## WoodenDreams (Aug 23, 2018)

HoldFasts work real nice for above workbench. I installed a Irwin 6" front vise $19.00, next to my drill press https://www.lowes.com/pd/IRWIN-4-1-2-in-Cast-Iron-Blue-Woodworkers-Vise/1000235649 . I also installed three cabinetmakers vises $77.00 each on my main workbench https://www.grizzly.com/products/Grizzly-Cabinet-Maker-s-Vise/H7788. I've been pleased with them.


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## WoodenDreams (Aug 23, 2018)

Thee third one is on the opposite side of the workbench


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## MPython (Nov 30, 2018)

Floyd, your space is close to mine. Mine is 17' X 27'. I have a table saw with a 52" table extension placed in front of a door at one end of the shop. I can rip long work with the outfeed running out the door, but I rarely rip boards that long. I also have a folding outfeed table that stays folded out of the way unless I need it. It helps with the space. My bench is in the middle of the room - well, not quite in the middle. It's centered in one half of the room and the table saw is the main feature in the other half. My RAS bench that I posted above is immediately behind my workbench. The table saw is pushed up against the right side wall so I have space for my drill press to the left. The rest of my tools - bandsaw and jointer/planer along with the drill press - are lined up against the left wall. I don't have room to break down 4 X 8 sheet goods,. I have a track saw for that and I do it outside in the yard. I'm maxed out for machine room and I have very little room for assembly of larger pieces. I'm currently building a desk. I have dismantled my lathe, which normally lives against the back wall opposite the table saw, so I can have room for the desk. No shop is big enough. Mine is cozy, but it works for me.


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