# Oh to be the Child of a Cabinet Shop :)



## fge (Sep 8, 2008)

Growing up I recall working hard in a family owned 2 acre garden with a hand pump well for watering. Some of our tools/machines were smallish and maybe even primitive by today's standards with regards to gardening. I recall watching the sun set on our daily work. While I grew up in a hard working household, not afraid to get their hands dirty while making a living, I did not get that awesome sensation of being a child of a Cabinet Shop.

Fast forward to now, and as I wind down for the evening, I reflect on my wife and children and their lives in the midst of our shop duties. In fact my wife, nor did my children, necessarily choose this life, correct?

I don't intend on putting a negative spin on this at all, or any woe as me feeling. Let me preface what I am getting ready to write by indicating I would have it no other way, both my wife and I absolutely love what we do. The rewarding experience we feel when high end results are achieved are difficult to describe. The happiness you feel when you achieve success, it is just simply amazing.

Tonight, my 8 year old daughter fell asleep on the assembly table while we ran molding from rough stick to finish. My 6 year old begging to close the shop. Since the molding needs to be on site by 10 am Saturday, my wife and I will open shop at 5 am and wrap up loose ends to meet that deadline. We are wrapping up a large project, 170 LF. With our space and large amount of doors/ drawer faces, we did the doors/DF in 4 groups. We now have the last group (35 upper doors) that need to be on site by Tuesday and we will make that deadline, and they will look perfect / flawless. But it will not happen without some very heavy hours, and too a very large part, thanks to my wife, Justine Nettrour. And a special thanks to my children for enduring the long hours around our shop, as they will learn life as the child of a Cabinet Shop will be challenging and rewarding, all at the same time.

My wife and I will deliver those doors on Tuesday, we will install the doors and tie up remaining tasks, take pics and at the end of the day, we will admire the beauty. We will wonder just how that beauty came to be, being somewhat amazed that we actually produced those cabinets and feeling a sense of pride of accomplishment, and a ton of exhaustion at the same time. It will most certainly be a late day returning home. Our children will be at a baby sitter on that day until mid evening.

And… On Wednesday we get to shift gears as we have other projects in process nearing completion as well. So if one would think that we could catch our breath after Tuesday, that would be a mistaken thought.

Our last project, the one I recently posted on my projects page, we completed a few weeks back on a Saturday night at 7 pm. My daughters were present on that day and were extremely irritable and my wife and I were so exhausted, it was even hard to look at the cabinets at that time due to exhaustion. I recall I even shot myself with the nail gun that day and that just never happens.

This summer will be filled with my daughters asking their daddy when they will have a special time, and in the midst of this grueling shop schedule, I will make the time they need to be children while enjoying time with their mommy and daddy 

Just a glimpse of being a "Child of the Cabinet Shop".


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

They'll appreciate it when they're in college whipping out built-ins
and crown moulding installs for tenured professors instead of
waiting tables.

Long hours… my dad taught me to work fixing up apartments
and houses. I don't like long hours any more than you do
but the competence of knowing how to build and fix stuff
is priceless.


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## fge (Sep 8, 2008)

Loren, you are just too funny. I have grown to really appreciate your input. When I make it back to CA in the future (for a visit), I will be looking you up so you can meet us…


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## realcowtown_eric (Feb 4, 2013)

wasn't there a neil young song, maybe buffalo springfield oops sorry it was Crosby Stills Hash that went….

Teach your children well,

here is the inspirational link…






To me, a child falling asleep on an assembly table is far more preferable than them falling asleep watching screens and sleeping with a wifi transmitter next to their brain. ....

Teach your children well. Use big words. Years ago I read that the single most early indicator of a childs success in school was their vocabulary.

Curious road ahead buddy. hopefull not to many downturns.


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## fge (Sep 8, 2008)

Thanks Eric,

I remember that song. That is a good old song, I like it. Thanks.


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## JAAune (Jan 22, 2012)

Sounds familiar. One great thing about owning a small shop is that 40 hour work weeks become child's play (no pun intended). It's better to learn to cope with the 80 hour week than become one of those annoying people that gripe if they have to stay 30 minutes past quitting time.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

It sounds like ya'll have a wonderful life. It's a nice story.

helluvawreck aka Charles
http://woodworkingexpo.wordpress.com


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

You guys all subscribe to Cabinetmaker+FDM right?

There was an article on outsourcing.

I haven't figured it out myself but I've read about furniture
makers who clock in at around 40 hour weeks by being highly
specialized and do well with it. I can totally see how this
level of specialization (Windsor chairs or whatever) is neither
as scalable as a cabinet operation nor as flexible.

I also read an article awhile back about a guy doing impressive
business doing frameless commercial jobs working modest
hours alone and sometimes with his teenage son. It was 
all about panel processing and I think there was no finishing
or sanding because it was all melamine and laminate processed
using a beam saw, CNC and an edgebander and sent out flat
packed on pallets for assembly by outside installers.

Just what's on my mind regarding work/life balance for a
woodworker. The True32 guy is big on balance too.


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## JAAune (Jan 22, 2012)

I read Woodshop News but not the others.

Good balance is achievable and yes, outsourcing is definitely one method. We made pretty good hourly rate on a pew retrofit by outsourcing all the milling and most of the sanding. Joinery, final sanding, finishing and install were our responsibility. Milling a thousand board feet, gluing it into panels and sanding it flat just isn't one of our specialties.

The downside to outsourcing is of course, the loss of a portion of income. Here's where good marketing is needed because once portions of a job are outsourced, it's important to increase the jobs going through the shop. Unfortunately good marketing either takes money or time so that's 20 hours a week added to my schedule.

My ultimate goal is to work no more than 50 hours a week on average but that has to wait a little while. We still need to purchase a lot of equipment, save for a building and get marketing up to speed.

To make things even more complicated, we're in the middle of product development for specialty items and it's consumed hundreds of hours over the past year and drained thousands from the bank account. We're trying to wrap most of that up this month and get it launched. If that works, we might actually be able to dial back the hours by the end of the year.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

Cabinetmaker+FDM is free. I don't take Woodshop News currently.
They are kind of similar.

I'm working on proprietary designs too… it's very time consuming
to develop something both really cool and difficult for competitors
to knock-off.

Proprietary products make lateral comparisons difficult for
consumers though, so it's one way to develop "price elasticity".


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## JAAune (Jan 22, 2012)

On the positive side, the more difficult, expensive and time-consuming it is, the harder it will be for others to follow. Few small shops have the equipment or expertise to pull off what we're attempting and bigger companies won't bother because the niche is too small for them.

At least that's what we hope.


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## fge (Sep 8, 2008)

I have enjoyed reading the posts from JAAune and Loren. Wanted to respond earlier but I was on a job site.

I agree, I would love to have a 50 hour work week consistently. I think it is possible. I think maybe even 40 hours but not sure of that. I am anxious to get a CNC up and running in the shop because much of what my wife and I do will be able to be cut right on a CNC router. Such as our past job with 70 dovetail drawers, or our upcoming job that has 80 dovetail drawers specified. Two of our next 3 (sold) jobs on schedule are specified as frameless cabinets, one is face frame. I can see where a CNC and an edgebander will make those frameless projects a real snap to complete since we do not build doors and drawer faces in our shop. We do our own finish work but we have become very efficient at that as well so it really does not take us as long as before.


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## gfadvm (Jan 13, 2011)

Jerry, I know all about long hours and hard work but being able to work with your wife and kids around you is something that many of us are envious of. I'm betting those kids grow up to be responsible, productive adults.


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## huff (May 28, 2009)

Jerry,

As you know, I enjoy following your progress in business and alway read your post, which I enjoy. I also enjoy reading what Loren and JAAune have to say because they both seem to have a handle on their businesses also.

It sure is easy now that I'm sitting on the side-lines to give advice, and sometimes I feel like I'm sticking my nose in others business and should not post comments anymore…..................but than again, you know me, so I'd like to throw a few ideas in for food for thought.

Time managment is always a balancing act with the small shops, but one thing you may want to take a few moments to consider is, who's dictating your 60,70 or 80 hours a week?

1. Is it simply because you're that busy at the moment and going to grab all the work you can asap?

2. Is it because that's the only way you can make ends meet, so you really don't have a choice?

3. Is it because you're not allowing enough time for each project to work reasonable hours and also not allowing any time slots for any fill end small projects that may pop up?

4. Are you allowing someone else to dictate your scheduling?

5. Can you or do you want to maintain this type scheduling for the rest of your career?

The reason I ask these questions is not for me, but for anybody that's trying to make a living as a woodworker.

I've been there and done that and struggled with all the above. I'd like to share a little story with you and others; I'd been in businees about 10 years and working those kind of hours when my first wife was diagnoised with terminal cancer. My wife was home schooling our youngest son and wanted to continue to do so as long as possible.

My hours increased even more during the next 6 years while trying to run my business, constant trips to doctors and hospitals, helping with home schooling, taking over household chores, taking over the bookkeeping end of our business and trying to spend as much time as possible with my wife.

My wife died when she was only 50 years old; my son had one more year to go in high school and I felt it would be a disaster if I put him in public school at that time, so my son and I worked out a schedule to finish his last year continueing being home schooled and prepare him for college and for me to continue to run my business (and it was more important than ever to have a successful business).

It was that time of my career that I realized that it was up to me who and how my time was going to be dictated and it didn't take long to figure out I had been going about my business totally wrong when it came to time management.

Don't get me wrong, I still worked more than 40 hours a week, but no more 60 or 70 hours and nobody told me what hours I was going to work. * Actually this is when my business became the most profitable and I started to really enjoy my woodworking again.*

JAAune put it so well when refering to having to change or step up marketing if you can start outsourcing more of your work. If you free up some of your time, you can more than make up what you have to spend for outsourcing if you market effectively.

Too much focus is put on marketing to generate more business, but marketing should not only get you more business, but also better business. That's how to make money.

One day I'll tell you about my son's senior year and how he earned an A+ in economics. lol.

As always, best of luck.


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## JAAune (Jan 22, 2012)

Jerry, I think you'll be one happy cabinet-maker once you get those last couple pieces of equipment. It sounds like the biggest hurdle you're facing now is keeping the jobs on schedule.

I'm curious though as to why you choose to build your own drawer boxes? I'm paying an average of $50 for a finished, dovetailed box done in hard maple so making my own seems unattractive. For an extra three dollars I can get it notched and drilled for under-mount slides. I'd have to knock out a box an hour to make it worth my while and I can't figure out a way to do that without investing in specialized equipment.

As Huff mentioned, the time saved by outsourcing might free enough time for you to improve infrastructure. Perhaps you could master CAD in preparation for that new machine or spend time hunting for a bargain edge bander at an auction.

Thanks for the compliment Huff but I'm not quite on top of things yet. I'm still studying and practicing the marketing aspect and have just barely started to see the effects. About two hours a day (reason for 80hr weeks) go into researching new internet marketing techniques and practicing new skills. Copy-writing is currently my main focus and I'll soon be attempting to learn cold-call skills. I keep hearing about churches undergoing renovations and need to figure out how to make contact with them in a manner that engages their interest.

The good news is that after about twenty tries, a reporter from a major media provider finally took interest in one of my pitches. Should result in an article about the business being published soon.


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## huff (May 28, 2009)

Jerry,

That's funny that JAAune asked about outsourcing your drawer boxes. That was the first componet I outsourced when I decided to go that route. He's right; you can get a solid maple dovetailed drawer totally finished and even notched for an average of $50.00/drawer.

I looked at my $55/hr shop labor rate and realized I couldn't acquire the lumber, size, sand, dovetail, assemble, final sand, notch for drawer slides, spray sealer, sand and top coat in under an hour and that didn't include materials.

I even outsourced complete jobs for a few years. I had 5 different "one man" shops that each had their own special talents and I would outsource the complete build to them. I did the marketing, selling, designing of every project that went through my shop, and did all finishing and every installation, but I would outsource the build to others to my quality control.

The beauty of that; they have their own shop, their own equipment, their own insurance and I wasn't paying any of them unless they were building for me. That was too much managing (babysitting) for me so pulled it all back to my shop after a few years and started outsourcing different things.

The main reason I wanted to do all my own installations was simple; I'm the best PR man for my business and the best salesman, so I was marketing while installing! Repeat business was a very strong part of my business.

It was not uncommon to have customers that I did anywhere from 4 to 8 large projects, usually talking about their next project while I was wraping up their current one.

JAAune; marketing can be so frustrating at times because we don't see instant results most of the time, but hang in there and continue to find new and different ways to market and in time you will see it all start to come together.

That is great news about a major media provider finally taking an interest and doing an article about your business. That can be a real boost for your image as a business.


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## fge (Sep 8, 2008)

John and JAAune,

Thanks for both of your input. As always they are very encouraging. You both have my mind thinking, my wheels spinning. I do believe in outsourcing as a strong business tool. I do outsource our doors, but have not really given any real thought to the drawers. We have a very large job coming up soon with 80 dovetail drawers.

But to outsource effectively, you must find decent sources for these tasks. I do have a decent source for dovetail drawers right in Austin but have not used them yet, they do come highly recommended though as that is their main thing. I think there should be a balance between outsourcing and what is done in house. At this time I try and outsource what seems to make economical sense and also our weakness. Like, with me insisting to make our own doors, I finally found it was not cost effective and our level of quality was not quite what a door MFG could achieve with proper machines.

To be continued, need to eat breakfast.


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## fge (Sep 8, 2008)

We mainly work a lot of hours due to a few things. One is because of us getting settled into our shop while having projects in process. So setting up and getting organized is sort of ongoing and taking time. Eventually we will be completely put away, organized and set up for optimal building. So the current task of setting up and organizing will be done and no amount of time will be devoted to that any longer.

Then there is the fact that I tend not to turn away work, and we end up getting back logged some. Side note: I have not announced this yet, but we did purchase a Techno LC series 59120 that we will be getting set up in July. With this in mind, I am hoping with all cut out tasks being delegated to automation, doors outsourced and installation outsourced, (I am giving serious thought to outsourcing drawers) we will be able produce cabinetry rather quickly without compromising quality. Our primary tasks done by hand will be assembly and stain / lacquer. I am hoping once we are fully set up that our production speed will increase which might bring our work hours down close to 40 hours per week. But then again, I am not sure as my phone seems to ring more and more these days. We are getting more quality leads lately which is good. So in the back of my mind, as we do get completely set up, and get to where we are fully optimized the best we know how, if our job loads increase (which appears to be the direction right now) then it will not matter that our speed/efficiency has increased, we still may be putting in near 60 hours. Not sure if that makes any sense or not 

Then the decision will need to be made to turn away work, or look to do more outsourcing.

Oh, and I have looked to outsourcing our cabinet installation for a couple reasons, not sure how it will work long term but our current job it has worked great. Since it is just my 90 lb wife and myself, it is just too hard to be on site for extended periods of time installing and running trim. Plus, I do not have any helper making it even more difficult. Then, not to sound to weak, but I am 30% disabled Vet due to a shoulder injury. The shoulder injury has become increasingly worse now which makes things a little more difficult. Since I love what we do, I am attempting to set my wife and I up in such a way to minimize or deflect some of the heavier tasks in our trade. Even in the shop, a 65 lb sheet of birch, it is simply not heavy, I understand that, my shoulder does not understand that though. So we have moved to sliding sheets horizontally rather than pulling and lifting them. We use carts for everything, even holding our sheets horizontally on carts. (like Home Depot horizontal sheet carts)

I feel like I have been long winded. I REALLY do like getting feedback from my fellow professionals. So if there are any other suggestions I do welcome them.

Thanks again John and JAAune.


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## fge (Sep 8, 2008)

Helluvawreck and Gfadvm,

Thanks for both or your comments.

Loren,

Thanks for the source, and no I have not read any cabinetmakerFDM. I did look into it and very interesting reading. Thanks for the source. Found this article which has me very encouraged. http://www.cabinetmakerfdm.com/CNC_router_boosts_production_50_percent.html

Oh, and I am just thinking out loud here. I am thinking hard about outsourcing drawers. But I do believe a flat cut CNC dovetail will achieve what we are looking for and should be efficient. I do believe a 2 sided 1/2" sheet of UV could be flat cut on CNC with no issue. This would mean the cut out time will be a day or less, and assembly will be 1/2 day or less. Since the material will be UV, we will only be concerned with applying finish to the edge of the pins. The top portion of the drawer likely will get edgebanded with UV banding. I will plan on doing it this way for a period of time to see how effective it is, then in the end I will determine if outsourcing is still better. But at this time I am on the fence. I am currently running Mozaik software which will output to the CNC. And Mozaik has a dovetail feature within their software which will allow the CNC to flat cut the dovetail with proper tooling.


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## JAAune (Jan 22, 2012)

It's definitely a balancing act determining what to outsource and what to keep in house. I don't know your shop well enough to be of much help there. For myself, I do know at a certain point working too many hours causes a drop in efficiency which eliminates the benefit of longer hours.

What I'm finding works best for me is to keep the hours in the shop under 10 if possible then eat supper and finish up the day with computer work (design, website, emails). This keeps productivity up but reduces fatigue a lot. 80 hour shop sessions work for about three weeks at best. Any more than that and I'll either neglect personal stuff or start missing sleep.

Good to hear that you've gotten the CNC. Whether you keep drawer boxes in house or not, it should eliminate a lot of sheet goods handling.


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## fge (Sep 8, 2008)

Going back to growing up in a shop. It will be sort of interesting as I look forward to teaching our girls the software and measuring for jobs. Hopefully they will be able to draw on the software and then output to the CNC. My 8 year old has excelled in school as she currently has a 5th grade reading level. She is also fairly decent with math so I anticipate her beginning to work with the software when she turns 10 and can read a tape measure. Now my 6 year old, not all that fond of school at this point. She lagged behind her class some this past year so I tend to worry more about her. She does not appear slow at all to me. I think she just tends to focus her attention on what interest her. At this time school is not what interest her. Hoping that will change. If it does not change, she will have to be the one putting the cabinets together after her sister runs the cutlist through the CNC 

But deep down I hope they find something, likely outside of carpentry, that will give them a secure life. But growing up in a cabinet shop will provide them a knack for hard work and what can be achieved through hard work.


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## JAAune (Jan 22, 2012)

Depending upon how you organize your business affairs, it might be useful once your 8 year old gets in high school to get her started learning spreadsheets. Strong math skills plus knowledge of spreadsheets has huge potential inside and outside a woodworking shop.


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