# How to improve your Google ranking



## leonmcd (Jul 12, 2007)

In order to drive traffic to your website/store you need to crank up your search engine rating.

I recently learned of the following technique to boost your rating.


Gather up some ad copy that includes a link to your website/store and lots of keywords to search on. Your going to post a lot of these so make sure that you also add links between each of the pages to all the other posts you are making. The more links the better.
Find a popular website that draws thousands of views a day. A site like LumberJocks.
Flood the site with posts of your ad copy. Might want to pace yourself. Five or six a day for a few weeks should be good.
Get some buddies to go to all your posts and add comments. The more hits the better.

I really can't take credit for this strategy. It would never have occured to me to *use* the LumberJocks site like this to boost my business.

I got this technique from fellow LumberJock Mark DeCou. You might have noticed his cane *"projects"*.


----------



## cranbrook2 (May 28, 2006)

It also works if you use the same name ( Extreme Birdhouses ) all the time and if you are on a ton of sites . How do you know what your rank is ?


----------



## GaryK (Jun 25, 2007)

So you are saying that we have a few more weeks of Marks postings?


----------



## leonmcd (Jul 12, 2007)

John,
I don't know how you can "know what your rank is". Basically you are trying to show up as the first item on the first page of the search engine for your search phrase. Takes a while for an assault like Mark's to register with the search engines, so it's too early to tell how effective his strategy is.

Gary,
Think I'll just duck down and stay away from the "projects" page until the "cane" storm blows over.

At the rate he is going, if he only has 100 left it should be safe to check out the projects page in another two or three weeks. Unless he decides to repost them in case anyone missed them. lol


----------



## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

I hate to be the one to say it, bit it would take away from my enjoyment of the Lumberjocks site if we had a bunch of people using this technique.


----------



## leonmcd (Jul 12, 2007)

Charlie,
I know what you're talking about. My enjoyment already has a dent in it with just one guy doing this.


----------



## jcash3 (Dec 15, 2007)

An easier way than doing a bunch of posts is just to pay for it. My site is done through godaddy.com. You can pay an extra $30 a year and they will push your site for you.


----------



## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

We don't see much of Mark anymore, but if you do enjoy the "feeling" of LumberJocks you can thank Mark. I am one of his "buddies", because he was instrumental in the early fellowship you find here. Yes he has used LumberJocks to help his business but he has spent a lot more time encouraging others. Many of his post are purely educational. I feel fortunate to know him.


----------



## shangrila (Apr 5, 2007)

I agree with Dennis.Mark always has inspirational "things"to share with us from profesional path to just good stories he tells.How hard is it for you to skip past a picture if you don't like it.Like I stated before "some"individuals I think are starting to make the pros feel unwelcomed here.I think this web page would be very boring if all of the individuals here that do this for a living left the site.How much would you like looking at only table saw sleds and sandpaper holders all day.No offense to anyone but I think the mixture of pros,want to be pros,hobbiest and amatures is what has made me keep coming back for 393 days and not getting bored with the site .


----------



## closetguy (Sep 29, 2007)

Ranking is determined by relevance. The relevance is determined by the words identified in the "Keywords" metaname field on each web page. For example, if your web site sells wood clocks and your keywords are "clocks, woodworking, custom made, maple, walnut" then a google or yahoo search on "clocks" compares keyword relevance and ranks this page low because it only has one reference to the search term.

However, if your keys words are "clocks, wood clocks, maple clocks, walnut clocks, custom clocks, handmade clocks" then a search will rank this page high because it contains a high occurance of the search term which is "clocks".

It doesn't mean you'll be at the top of the list, but it makes a difference between being on the first or second page compared to page 15.

Last year if you typed "closets" followed by any city in Georgia, my web site came up as #1 on google and yahoo. However, this cost me $1500 per month. I finally dropped it last fall, but it was an interesting marketing experiment.


----------



## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Scott and Dennis, don't read *too* much into what *I* said. I love to look at Mark's work, and I know that he is always willing to give help and advice to those of us at a lower skill level.

The business with the canes hasn't been any big deal to me. Some I looked at, some I passed over. But I'm just saying…. if it got to the point where there were 20 or 30 pros doing the same sort of thing at any given time, I *do* think it would detract from the experience we all enjoy here.

I'm not suggesting any "rule" about this. If everybody uses the same common sense and courtesy we usually see around here, we'll be okay.


----------



## jcash3 (Dec 15, 2007)

I can understand what Mark is doing. If you're running a business or trying to grow your business, you're always on the lookout for ways to do that. I just started my own website and trying to do the same thing, just not posting that much, I guess I could take better pics of my utensils and post here. Anyone for a spoon avalanche.
Most of the guys here are great, it's by far one of the best message boards I've ever been apart of and the members here are friendly and haven't gotten into the rudeness of some other sites. I love looking at all of the different styles and designs. It's made me go back and look at how I started woodworking and the things I was building then and compare them to what I do now. I've gotten to a point where I'm not quite a pro (yet, hopefully) but I hope to one day. I have started selling pieces and making pieces that are designed by me and the future owner.
I think as long as the site stays as something people can go to to get advice or offer advice, it will remain a great site.


----------



## toyguy (Nov 23, 2007)

I can understand this method as well… However I do not agree with it. 
*The cane posts have gotten out of hand*. I think using LJ in this manner is just plain wrong. I don't want to stop anyone from making a go of their business, but not at the expense of the lumberjock community. Maybe this guy should spend a buck on some advertising.

Just my 2 cents worth.


----------



## AdMarkGuy (Jan 1, 2008)

Let me repeat an earlier posting: 
My Company employs 2 Full Time Search Engine Optimization (SEO) people, - We are a affiliated/ranked Google Ad Professional Firm with a Platinum rating, one of my employees above lectures on SEO at Industrywide seminars -

We administer/manage for clients over $300,000 per month almost $4-million per year on just online advertising - I lecture at SBA seminars on adverstising and marketing, including an online presence. so I can speak with some authority on this subject.

What you post is not wrong but it is not right - that constitues about a 10% weighted average to your search engine viability - while it may help it is a small part of search criteris that search engines use. Those types of behaviors you describe will add to the relevancy of this site not your own.

The most important criteria you must have is a relevant site, with relevant/ useful content, and sound architecturial structure to make it visiable to search engines.

I am planning on starting a Blog on this site on Planning, Developing, Building and Growing a Business. I believe I will include an entire posting to websites, online presence and internet marketing. I think that experience maybe beneficial to many of the LJ's who may wish to do this full-time but lack skillsets to develop the business. It may also be a word to the wise in saving your money.


----------



## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Bill, I think that would be a great way of contributing your expertise. It exemplifies the helpful spirit of this site, and would surely be of great interest to any pro or would-be-pro woodworkers here.

And one other thing: As I said above, I'm not looking to make a rule, but….

Thinking back to Leon's earlier topic about multiple project postings, and taking into consideration the issues discussed in this topic, I still say that a suggested posting frequency of no more than one project per day would be a good thing.


----------



## toyguy (Nov 23, 2007)

I agree with you on that one for sure Charlie… no more that one project post per day. Even that seems a little too often… I can't build them that fast.


----------



## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

I think we do need a rule…rule #62.


----------



## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

LOL Dennis. I think a few of us know that one. ;-)

Rest assured, I'm not losing any sleep over it one way or the other.


----------



## Knottyguy (Apr 20, 2008)

Please bear with me. I'm a little slow on the uptake, sometimes.

I can't seem to wrap my brain around what it is that Mark's doing regarding the postings. Are you talking about showing lots of canes as his projects? Multiple postings of canes as his projects here will drive the ranking up for his own site with canes or is it other postings you're talking about. I haven't really noticed an inundation of canes. How and where is this site being flooded?

If I had a website marketing my cat shaving skills and I posted lots of pics of cats that I've shaved as projects I've done, it would drive my website ranking up on Google? Is that what you're saying?

My apologies for being the slowest one in the class. It's a bell curve thing.


----------



## leonmcd (Jul 12, 2007)

Knottyguy, in the 12 days you've been a member, Mark has posted 31 of the 264 projects or about 1 in 8.

Not really a flood. Just seems like a lot compared to most people.

As to it's effect on his marketing campaign, I don't know. See the post above by Bill - - Ad-Marketing Guy
Also, Bill - - Ad-Marketing Guy has offered to start a blog that will include a full explanation of the whole internet marketing thing. Stay tuned.


----------



## cranbrook2 (May 28, 2006)

I have been here a while and i always enjoy seeing Marks work along with everyone else's work . 
I think if a person can produce that much work in a short time then they should be able to share it .


----------



## bbqking (Mar 16, 2008)

I hope Bill makes it known when his blog is up and running. Something like that would be great.


----------



## AdMarkGuy (Jan 1, 2008)

Following up on my post here - Please Take a Look - Thanks
http://lumberjocks.com/topics/3220


----------



## darryl (Jul 22, 2006)

I've known Mark for quite some time and I must say I'm a little disappointed to see this post. Mark is an honest hardworking father and husband doing his best to support his family doing what he loves.

As I see it, this post of yours violates both of these new rules that Martin has recently put in place:

Don't get personal. A good general rule to follow is, "criticize ideas, not people". 
We do not tolerate abusive, malicious, personal attacks.

Let's also not forget that Martin has added several features to this site that makes is very easy to lead other people or "customers" back to this site. These people or "customers" could also stumble across one of your own project postings and inquire about purchasing something they like from you. So consider knowing that you (you meaning any jock here) could benefit from something you are currently complaining about.

I don't envy Martin at this point in the game. He's spent the past couple years developing a site that thousands of people enjoy. Now all of a sudden a couple newer people come strolling in and think they have the right to say how it should be done. Back off already. If you don't like a post, don't look at it. There is no requirement that you view, like or need to comment on every project posted, I don't.

And remember, this is not your personal website, some of us like Lumberjocks the way it is.


----------



## shangrila (Apr 5, 2007)

I agree totally darryl.I could not have said it better.


----------



## Frank (Nov 19, 2006)

--great post there Darryl; 
I for one still remember that when I first came here to this site….some time ago, it was Mark who first stuck his tongue out and made some words with his fingers on the keypad, welcoming me here….thank you Mark.

Never could understand all this noise about how many projects one can post in a days time….*and I say; "post as many as you want"*. I remember when an-other lumberjock by the name of Don first came on board, his enthusiasm was at a point of posting many-many wood projects a day….and that was great! Don where are you….I still miss those projects and talks we had!

One of the great points about LJ here has all-ways been the many different comments//opinions held and voiced….no-one person claiming to be a 'god know it all'. Now some want to tell me what I can talk about, how much I can post, and so what….maybe my opinions are not your opinions, never wanted them to be any-way, that's why they're my opinions, my posts and my wood projects. Maybe we should just let everyone here at LJ make 'one rule'....every-one gets a badge and then we can all work it out….hmmm.

One more thing to say about the 'flood' of wood project postings….that original flood lasted 40 days and 40 nights, so keep them coming!

And yes Darryl; I also like what you said here; "I don't envy Martin at this point in the game. He's spent the past couple years developing a site that thousands of people enjoy. Now all of a sudden a couple newer people come strolling in and think they have the right to say how it should be done. Back off already. If you don't like a post, don't look at it. There is no requirement that you view, like or need to comment on every project posted, I don't." ....*my feelings exactly*.

Thank you.
GODSPEED,
Frank


----------



## leonmcd (Jul 12, 2007)

As the original poster of this topic, I assume that several of the recent comments are directed at me.
The following addresses several of those comments.

COMMENT 1
As I see it, this post of yours violates both of these new rules that Martin has recently put in place:
Don't get personal. A good general rule to follow is, "criticize ideas, not people".
We do not tolerate abusive, malicious, personal attacks.


*This post was about the technique that Mark used. Not about Mark. It wasn't even a criticism. It was presented as a clever strategy to boost sales*
*I've reread the entire post and I can't see where I was "abusive, malicious, or made any personal attacks". Clearly I've offended several people but I don't know what I said that was so offensive. The most offensive comment I could find was "Just seems like a lot compared to most people". Really didn't expect the response I just received."*

COMMENT 2
Now all of a sudden a couple newer people come strolling in and think they have the right to say how it should be done. Back off already.

*I apologize, I didn't know that "newer people's" opinions were not welcome. I realize that this is not MY website, but I was naive enough to think I could offer my opinions. I also didn't realize that my opinion carried so much weight. That I could "say how it should be done". I know I'm a "newer person" but after almost 300 days I got to feel comfortable. Won't make that mistake again.*

COMMENT 3
If you don't like a post, don't look at it. 
There is no requirement that you view, like or need to comment on every project posted, I don't.

*True for projects. Also true for other people's opinions as well.*

COMMENT 4
One of the great points about LJ here has all-ways been the many different comments//opinions held and voiced….no-one person claiming to be a 'god know it all'. Now some want to tell me what I can talk about, how much I can post, and so what….maybe my opinions are not your opinions, never wanted them to be any-way, that's why they're my opinions, my posts and my wood projects.

*I don't understand these comments. Seems to say that sharing opinions is good but then talks about "some want to tell me what I can talk about, how much I can post". Don't see how someone else's opinion can make you do anything.*

*Finally, I want apologize to everyone that was offended. It was NOT my intent. If I'm not baned from the site, I promise to keep my opinions to myself in the future.*


----------



## decoustudio (May 4, 2006)

Wow.

Got a phone call tonight about this, glad I was tuned-in by someone.

First off, let me apologize.

I am sorry that my posting of projects has ruined, or distorted, or affected negatively, anyone's view of lumberjocks.

More importantly to me, that it ruined anyone's opinion of me personally. 
That just pains me in my stomach, seriously.

Posting a bunch of the same things in a short time was done because I stayed up to 1-2am for several nights trying to get the content ready, and loaded them quickly, as quickly as I can do on dialup internet service.

My intent was not meant to offend, or ruin anyone's experience. My postings are not catalog pages I can assure you. I don't have a catalog, don't want one. What I sell is unique things, with serial numbers I give them, and not catalog pieces that I want to repeat in exact form ever again.

They are all completed projects that have a story. Some are for sale, others have been sold.

Again, I'm sorry.

Do I hope they generate business for me? Of course I do. I won't deny that.

Am I using LJ for my business purposes? Of course I am. I've never said I wasn't.

However, I've worked too hard on LJ to make my actions a sore point for anyone else. So, I'm sorry to all of you that are offended.

For those brave souls that defended me, and my character, I am very grateful, and encouraged.

But more importantly, I have worked harder to maintain an internet presence that was positive and supportive, and encouraging, and professional. This sort of forum topic crushes my spirit. Honestly.

I made the decision when I signed up 2 years back, that I was going to use my real name, put my real shop photos in, make it to where people could find out whether I am for real, and be personal enough to know that I am a person, not an avatar with a funny photo. I'm not a "speaker," able to comment and talk with anonymity and no accountability. I did that on purpose, keeps me real.

I made the decision to not use a "code name" for that reason alone, 2 years ago. Why? It's how I want people to know me. Is it a lie, or a false image? I hope not.

What I found out fairly quickly, is that people will show up at my door based on LJ postings.

When the first guy showed up, I was so thankful that my real shop photos (as crummy as they are) were the ones he found when he was here in person. I found out quickly that people will drive to check me out, to check out my authenticity. To get to know me. To buy from me. That accountability makes me worry over how I've been portrayed, or when I've offended people.

Again, I'm sorry.

Bear with me some, and I'll tell you the scoop on what you have been seeing from me for the past 24 months of lumberjock postings. Some of the folks that haven't been around since it's early days just don't know what has been going on, and I understand that. I can respect that, and hope you'll let me explain a little.

I have been a part of a small group of folks that have worked very hard to make lumberjocks a growing website. Not just a small one, that fades over time, but something that has the potential to be the most vibrant, most comprehensive, most community minded, best technology, most featured, woodworking forum on the net. Martin is a master at programming, and his idea has really come to fruition.

However, without real LJ members, content, and projects, it stays small.

Tying LJ to advertisers, online stores, t-shirt sales, magazine publishers, internet television shows, and such is an effort to make this a growing and relevant website.

But, without real people and real content, it is all smoke and mirrors.

I looked last night, and about half of the 4300+ members we had yesterday had never posted a single post. No projects, no comments, just a sign up and code name. My wife is one of those I found. But, she was in the "1" post pages of Jocks. Way to go girl.

I don't post every project I do, not even close. I worked on four kitchen cabinet jobs last summer with a cabinet maker that needed help with his schedule, but not a single photo posted. I installed windows, did a bunch of pro-bono work, never posted. So, how do I decide what to post, and when, and how much?

My integrity has been called into question with this topic, so I'll tell what I'm doing and let the chips fall.

I have three purposes for posting a project, in priority:

1) It is something I want my customers to see, or prospective customers to find 
2) I want to share a story from my life to either encourage, or help other folks in their own journeys, 
3) it provides content for LJ's growth.

That's it. It's either for Business, Friendly Help, or LJ Growth.

And to be honest, there ain't been much in the area of Business for me. Until recently, and more on that below.

The sad part, is in 24 months, the one time that this effort has paid off…....I leave some offended.

I'm sorry.

The comments I get from LJ'ers is both encouraging, and uplifting, and many times gives me a spring in my step for at least 20 minutes after I log off each time, and head back out to where the bills get paid. Until this weekend, I've enjoyed 24 months of consistent positive encouragement.

This weekend, I've had an ugly, cussing run-in with another LJ'er, and now this post. It just has so crushed me, that I've been sick to my stomach. I got myself into the first pickle due to my wreckless words in a post. Now, I've got myself into this 2nd pickle on my own doing also, with project posting.

Again, I say I'm sorry.

To answer the question of "when" I post. I would have to say that these days, it is closely based on when a project is finished. In the early days of trying to help Martin build relevant content for the site, I posted in several flurries to get some of my older work posted. To have content loaded.

The goal, was to load up content. I remember when Dick Cain did that. He at least apologized. I didn't do that. I should have apologized.

I did have one guy send me a personal email asking about why all the cane postings. He can attest, that I told him my motivation, and what I hoped to gain from it. What I didn't do was apologize to him. He didn't indicate that he was offended, so I just assumed that he wasn't. Probably a bad assumption on my part.

Again, I'm sorry.

What woudl LJ be without Dick's constant encouragement, and awesome portfolio. I don't know either, but I can tell you this…....it would be "less."

This past week, I finally took the time to do a bunch of photos and postings of canes. I should have spread it over more days. I didn't anticipate the problems that developed in this topic, or I can assure you that I would have done it differently.

I did stop to think early last week whether I needed to ask Martin if there was a way I could post a project to my portfolio page, without it having to show up as a "posting" that the other LJ'ers will find on the opening home page. I should have gotten that answer before posting, I can see now.

So, why the postings now?
It is when I had the work done, and photos cleaned up, and stayed up late, or put off my paying work in the shop, to get the content loaded.

I spend a lot of time on my postings. Some folks don't, that's cool. I put a 100% effort in every one them, or at least most of them.

The more that each of us post, the bigger the site gets, the more potential value it generates for it's creator, Martin. I like Martin and have been concerned from the beginning that this site needs to be able to pay him for his time. I've offered for nearly 24 months to pay a service, or membership fee. I think Martin should get paid for his efforts. He likes us all, but he has bills too.

So, how do I decide what to post?

Part of it is whether it is a project that I want to say I did, and would do something like it again. If I don't want to do that type of work again, I don't post it. Unless, my experience with the project, or life, could help others. My adirondack chair story is like that. Bad experience for me, but it might help others. It might help the sort of folks that ask me for advice while trodding out their own journey.

So, let me say again that I'm sorry. Really. I have nothing to defend my actions other than pure selfish motives, trying to help and encourage others, or providing content for the site, or all three. I'm sorry.

I have been making canes for awhile, never seemed to get much of the business off of the internet, all just by word of mouth. To give you some facts, before last month, I had only sold three canes in about 6-7 years of having an internet website, where I can see that the internet actually did the job of finding a customer. The rest have been by word of mouth, or art shows, or consignment stores.

None of that came from LJ Postings.

Also, in the range of 99% of my business income is from furniture. My onslaught of "canes" brought out an angry accusation that "I'm just a whittler of canes…" That's ok. It isn't true. I'm big enough to accept that, and also understand why a newbie would feel that way. After all, they just saw a bunch of canes posted.

Canes, powderhorns, knives, & scrimshaw, have been mostly hobby efforts, and something I enjoy building. I charge for them because people want to own them, but the income is inconsequential to me for the most part. I like it when it comes in, but it isn't frequent enough to pay bills monthly, or depend upon.

I post them because I enjoy the work on them, and it is work that I would like to find more of, and it gives some variety to the postings. More depth to the "content."

I remember posting my first "knife" and the comment from one guy in LA was that he liked mixed-media, and to "bring it on."

So, I did post more. I get bored with woodworking at times. The detours give me some creative stuff to think about when I'm doing sanding, or pushing boards through the thickness planer. Still, I understand how they are offensive to the "purest" woodworkers.

Again, I say I'm sorry.

I posted a blog last week about my new journey into silversmithing. This has nothing to do with woodworking, but I use it in my woodworking. If you don't care, don't read it. Probably also offended others. I was called an "artsy-fartsy type" after that blog posting.

That's ok, about 2 hours after the posting, a new customer asked me to include a silver end cap on a walking cane they wanted. Pretty good payoff for my time taking pictures and posting the blog.

Also, I've have worked really hard to accept, and decline commissions, based on finding the most "artistic" things that someone would pay me to build. I'm just not that interested in regular woodworking, and I've found that my customers aren't either. There's just no challenge for me anymore in making good fitting mortise-tenon joints. They need to fit well, but just like the sanding has to be smooth, it's just part of the job.

After all, isn't the "blog" mine? I thought it is was "my" diary that I was kind enough to let "you" read. That's what Martin told me when he introduced the Blogs to me in a note asking me to start writing one. Until that email, I honestly had never heard of the word "blog" and still don't know why we all call it that.

Ok, I'm getting defensive, please forgive me. I'm sorry, I don't want this to turn that direction. I don't like arguments, really. I'm just trying to tell what is going on, all the while realizing that the more I write, the more my detracters will hammer me.

I had a customer write me Friday last week, telling how offensive he found it that so many people asked me to tell them the details of what I do for a living. I assured him that I try to protect that, while not coming across wrong.

I write up a lot of "how-to's", but for some reason, LJ'ers have come to expect that, and get angry if a guy like me doesn't provide more of what they aren't paying for. I understand that also. I have emailed guys asking detailed questions, and once-in-awhile, I get a response.

It takes me some time to write up a story, layout the photos, do the best I can do with bad photos from a cheap camera, and post it. I appreciate the comments I get, and the comraderie that the projects and blogs have fostered in my life, but all of that effort has not been to just make friends.

It has been to improve my business. I've never hidden that agenda, at least to those that have read back through my writings. Long and boring they are I realize. But, my motivations have been clearly laid out there if that is what you are questioning.

So, here I've been for 24 months, and hardly any business has been generated from the effort. I did get into two books that were written last year, but neither paid me a cent, one of them sent me a free copy of the book, so that was cool, but I had to buy the other copy. Both of those book situations came from LJ postings. Cool. Still, no cash value.

Over the past 24 months, I've met some neat folks through LJ and the non-LJ emails that the postings prompted.

I can't really afford the time to browse through lumberjocks anymore, as so much of my sit down time on the computer is taken up by these emails and phone calls from non-LJ'ers.

My wife has quit interrupting me in the shop when the phone rings. Just call, you'll see. You got money, she'll walk out to the shop with the phone. If you don't you'll have to find another way to get to me. She wants her bills paid, and I understand that.

I had a 30 minute phone conversation last week arising from my posting of the Inlay Techniques. 
I paid for the phone call. Nice guy, glad to help him. He's not an LJ'er but found the post "surfing" with google. I can't take time to talk to folks like that, so I told him to wait two days until I was in the car driving to my silversmithing class, and I would call him. Nice guy, glad I did.

Saturday, another guy wrote asking how to inlay decorative colored epoxy in a gun stock he had laser engraved for his son's arrival from Iraq. Not an LJ'er, but somebody I wanted to try and help. So, all of this non-LJ activity is taking up a lot of my time.

Actually taking up too much time, and I am left wondering why am I doing it? Bottom line, is that I like to.

I guess in the pride department, it gives me pride, and I enjoy having someone look at what I know as important to them. Still, no cash value to me. I'm sure the psych majors could relate it to a Mazlow diagram somehow. I remember that from some elective I had to take while pursing my engineering degree.

You want content? The president of Compucarve wrote me after reading my post on that tool in my Blog. A well read blog I might add. Not a penny to me, nor a free trial machine, or a kickback, discount, or nothing. I tried to get one, but no deal.

I get many requests each week to "swap" links. I don't mean to not do it, but swapping links is hard for me to get done, as I don't update my website. That takes money, none of which, do I ever have extra of.

I can update stuff on LJ myself, so I've put my time on LJ really for that reason. If I had to pay someone for the posting work, I'd not be posting. Plain and simple.

I'll swap links, but I actually hardly ever get to the effort of paying the guy to update my website to get the new swap loaded. I've found that almost all of this link swapping is by guys with websites where they do their own updates. Most are small, just have gone on line, and want some names to start bringing them in the "hits." Afterall, why else would they want their competitors listed on their own site? I have to pay for website updates, so I don't do it often, and what I pay for has to be something that I have to do.

At one point, I started to keep a list of the swaps that I needed to list, so that I could pay my webguy in one fell swoop. But the list soon got outdated, and misplaced, and I don't even know where it is now. Being creative doesn't mean that I have an administrative bone in my body.

Also, these link swaps haven't done much in the way of internet traffic for me anyway. The stats are something like less than 5% of the traffic is from all swapping sources, combined. Not much, huh? So much for swapping links making us millions on the internet.

What I discovered in the process of my experience with LJ, and have written about several times to tell others, is that the side-effect of the LJ postings, is that my own website gets hits. Martin told me maybe 23.5 months ago when he introduced himself to me, that if I would post content on his new website, it would help my business. I liked the kid, and believed what he said, and so I have tried to make that happen, to benefit us both. I don't have a pension, nor accruing one, so my time is somewhat limited.

I looked yesterday, and just under a total of 43,000 page loadings have come to my website in the past 24 months. Averaging around 30% of those are from referring links with LJ. But, Averaging more than 50% of page loadings are from "no referring link", so I don't know where they come from. About 5% from total swapped links, and the rest from key word searches. I have seen that 26% of the key words that found my website were related to my typed name, or website name. I don't know where they heard of the name, but they used google 85-90% of the time to track me down.

These are stats that I pay to get through statcounter, and I look at them at least once a day, sometimes more. I can't learn marketing without watching what is happening. In my MBA classes I took years ago (never finished) I learned that getting data is key to making informed decisions, especially about retail sales and marketing. Gut-feels don't work with investments in my business, as I just don't have any money I can afford to lose.

Ok, so I'm busily working on providing lots of content to grow a small website in my spare time. In the back of my mind, I'm told that it will grow my business, and generate cash for me. I considered that an investment with the potential to yield profit…...unknown.

I would say that in the 11 years that I have sold my work, 99.99% has been to word-of-mouth customers. Not fancy websites, not fancy business cards, not glossy brochures, not prestigous shows, or glossy national magazine ads, and until a month ago, not from LJ content either.

That's just a fact, one that I would like to change…..maybe.

I wonder at times if I wouldn't be better just working, and letting the chips fall where they do. Whatever word of mouth work comes, I do it, and not spend a moment on marketing. Still, there is a lot to gamble in this deal, and it scares me to think about not at least trying to generate new business from marketing.

One old-timer antique refinisher told my brother-in-law, that "if he was any good, he wouldn't have to advertise." That was two years ago, and it still hurts.

Martin asked me, in our first communications, for me to please work hard on making the "story" in the projects something personal. He wanted me to be an example of the type of content that he wanted the community to grow into.

You see, too many other woodworking sites will just tell you the wood type, the stain color, and the finish on it, and give you a crummy badly-lit photo. That's it. Well, to be honest, there are lot of those on LJ also. Taking good photos is hard work, I realize that. Writing is hard for some of. Not all of us know how, and some of us are still learning.

Martin's vision was to have a place that developed a community. That, he felt, required stories behind the projects, real people, real projects. I was really pretty nervous about the danger behind putting personal things in postings. Quite scared, to be honest. My wife has warned me nearly every day about it.

As the postings started going out, I started getting "site positioning" offers every day. I also went from a few emails a week with spam content to maybe 50-85 a day now. How to increase my maleness, a good investment opportunity, web positioning, or free money from some Nigerian guy if I will just give him my bank account number. I didn't have those troubles before posting on LJ.

One day I was quite shocked to get an invitation to some website to update my "profile." Someone had read my postings, and put my work-place history out on the web, and wanted me to update it and make sure it was accurate for my online "resume." Things like past job titles, past companies I worked for, etc. I was quite shocked, but realized that it was my own keyboard that provided that information. It wasn't all in one place either, but would have required a long reading of many things, to get all of the information that they gleaned. Scary huh? I didn't take time to update the profile.

Then, the complete shock and horror came when a beloved jock's widow was assualted by someone claiming to be there to help her with the aftermath of her husband's funeral, and they said that they represented "the lumberjocks." That "name" got her to open the door, and the assault happened. The police told her that there was too much personal information posted in the website, and the guy used it to get to her. That brought chills to me. I was so hurt by what that guy did to my online's friend's widow. And, I had a part in it. Try carrying that load folks? Hurts. Now, I'm scared by what someone could do to me and my family. "Trust in the Lord," I keep telling myself.

Is it really worth it? I have asked myself that question for over a year now. My wife got so frustrated with all of the time on the computer doing lumberjock content that she put her foot down last Fall. I had start working, and stop typing. So, that's what I've been doing. Afterall, I couldn't provide her with any concrete evidence of a "payout" of the hours of invested photography and writing and waiting on dialup to load.

Then, during that "quiet spell" I work. After working for a few months like a mad-man on M&M's and Coke Zero, I naively batch up a bunch of completed projects, stay up several nights way too late, so that I could post more "content. Then that effort produced this forum topic. Ouch.

Which by the way is a Forum "Category" that I invented and asked Martin to set up. I could quickly foresee that what professionals needed in the area of support had nothing to do with what hobbyists need. I asked for a separate website, Martin suggested the "Category". I even wrote the title "Sweating For Bucks," and the summary of what the topic is about. I came up with that. It's my own fault. Now, in my own Forum Category, I hear how I've hurt other people with a flurry of postings.

Again, please let me say I'm sorry.

Ok, so the traffic has developed a very small amount of notoriety and website presence, but still no real payoff for me to pay bills with. Lots of spam, some more "hits", and now a gut wrenching weekend.

The LJ comraderie is a joy to my life, and an encouragement, but is hard to justify when bills are coming due. I have real, local friends, that would like more of my time as well. I'm left wondering if I should be investing more in them, and less on-line.

I've talked with Martin many times over these many months about the problems of finding time to post content to grow his website, with the lack of an actual benefit to my bottom line being evident. Martin assured me that it would come. I believed him, and continued to work hard to develop content for the site to grow.

I have written many times in the past about this process, it is not a hidden agenda from me, unless you haven't read those old blogs and comments, and forum topics.

I've written so much dribble, that I constanly get ribbed for writing too much. Martin asked me to. That's my defense. Other than I just like to talk, and I write fast, and compose on the fly, and type like an old secretary. A leftover trait from sitting at a corporate desk writing proposals, contracts, bid packages, customer coorespondence, etc.

But, to be honest, as I've mentioned most of my time now is spent answering personal emails. Now, I'm not spending time on lumberjocks as much, so that I can work. But, now every day I get emails from folks asking for my help and advice. Do I ignore them? That's my wife's advice. "Either ignore them, or charge them!" I'm advised. I do have a paypal account I can receive money in, so that's a step in the right direction.

Many of the posts I've done have come out of the questions that I get asked the most. What does that mean? Well, I had to do something, as I couldn't sit down and write out the same stuff and advice to each person for every email.

So, I decided to post the information in blogs and projects and then I could just refer new emailers to the old blogs that would answer their questions. Some of my stories have struck a chord with people in similar situations, and they send me notes for advice, or ideas, or personal thanks. etc. I get asked, "How did you start this?" "Was it hard?" "How do you find customers?" On and on the questions come. So, I write those answers in the blog and project postings, and then just send the emailer back the link with an apology for not spending more time with them.

And, you know what? Most of the time, I never hear from them again. Three weeks ago, someone found my Casket project and sent me an email asking if I could build a casket for a church group that was needing it for a drama they were doing, in three weeks, and they wanted a big discount on the price since they didn't have much money. I sent them some questions, and tried to figure out a way to help them. The guy, never responded. Why? I don't know.

One person sent me an email asking for my personal involvement in a new western design show going to happen in Oklahoma. I sent right back a few pertinent questions. Never, heard back from them, even after two more attempts to raise an answer.

You can see why I get skeptical about all of the "opportunities" that come along because of LJ postings.

Martin's suggestion was to write the information into e-books and sell copies of them through the LJ site. That sounds great, but I'm not ready to say that I know anything. I can tell folks what I'm doing, how it's working, what I'm giving up on, but it is all theory at this point for me. I just can't see charging for theories. Colleges do that. That's not a sly cut to colleges, but it is what they are designed to teach.

I have enjoyed the LJ community. I can tell you that a small percentage of that online communcation has come from lumberjocks members. So, it is working, just as Martin envisioned it would. Web surfers find the content. They may not join, but they found the content.

The LJ'ers send me notes through the LJ system for the most part. A few of the close friends email me off line. It is the vast majority of emails that come from people strolling through the internet and find LJ and then send me an note.

These are almost always asking for things from me. Plans on what I've built. Copies of my Business Plan. Copies of my Marketing Plan. My source for some special material item. Permission to post my LJ posting on their own website so that they could generate more of their own traffic (why I started putting copyrights on so much of the content I've written). On they go, requests for Swapping links. Offers for web positioning. Offers to rewrite my webpage. Asking for donations of my work to this, or that, good cause. Asking for a business start-up advice. Financing opportunities. Can I explain in detail how I did this, or that detail? Can I lecture at some this, or that woodworking guild (all at my own cost for travel) of course, to explain a detail of my work that is my niche that I'm selling to customers. Questions on this, or that, or something, all becaue I've written content for lumberjocks.

Again, is it worth it?

The jury is still out. Feels more like "no" sitting here tonight. I've been in my skin long enough to know it is thin, and melancholy, and emotions come and go like roller coasters. I keep telling myself that it will pass, tomorrow. I hope so.

Again, I'm sorry.

So, that's all fine and good for the traffic of LJ which is what Martin asked me to help him with about two years ago, actually today. This is my 2nd anniversary today, how ironic. On the very day I am answering these accusations from people that found this site based in part on my written content, in a Forum Category that I created. Wow, is that coincedence? Thanks Karson for thinking of me and sending me a note tonight to tell me. I knew it was close, thanks for telling me it is today. Your note really lifted my spirit as I writing this.

So, I've worked very hard, and spent really countless hours on that effort to develop written content and project postings that have helped drive the internet searching so that other woodworkers would find this site and join in.

I've now told you the motivations, given you the behind-the-scenes scoop, and ask for your forgiveness for the offenses you feel.

Why is the "content" important?

It isn't my writing that is great, but it is the "words" that apparently are picked up and folks have been finding this place. I've heard things like "relevant" words are what matters to search engines. So, I try to make my stories and projects relevant to real people with real projects with the hope that they are also "relevant" to google.

So, now the summary you've waited so long to read:

Why so many cane postings? You've weighed in on your thoughts and assumptions of my motivations.

First off, just last month, I sold my first real cash project from an LJ posting. No kidding, a piece of furniture, sold, check cleared, nice family, very appreciative folks. Win-win. I posted that unique victory in a blog, told the world that LJ finally brought me some actual cash. Go read it.

Well, actually, LJ really didn't bring in the cash. It was my coffee table that I built that brought in the cash. But the LJ posting found the buyer. I would have found a buyer for it at some point, but it ended up coming from an LJ google hit.

I never had this particular coffee table on my website. It was an experiment. If someone found my website, the link brought them back to LJ. The experiment paid off, and taught me some things.

Now, get this. The customer wants 2-3 matching end tables. So, I have found another project. LJ didn't get that work. My work on the table, and the experience with dealing with me personally on the coffee table, interested them in buying more pieces. I can handle that part, been doing that for a long time.

Sorry Shangraw, the guy is in your territory. At least I wrote you to tell you when it was coming together. Ha. The upside is maybe I can get a trip to see you while, I'm delivering. Here's another cool aspect of LJ.

I had no idea how to ship a piece of furniture to another state. I knew Shangraw had. So, I emailed and asked his advice. Get this…...he offered to take it to them, if I could wait until the Fall when he was close to my area for a delivery of his own. Now, where do you find another professional that is willing to help like that? I'll tell you…..LJ.

He then wrote back and offered ideas on transportation services for me to use since I couldn't hold off on shipping that long. That is the community side of LJ, working together. I didn't post the question in the Forum, I just sent a personal email to a guy I knew would give me some ideas. So, that is cool, the whole experience is helped by LJ. Maybe Martin is Right again!

Ok, so the coffee table sold. Wow, cool. Why the cane "Onslaught?"

Back a couple of weeks ago I had about 5 cane postings. Nothing big in the way of a distraction for other LJ'ers. One of those canes has been in the top page of project viewings for a long time now. When the coffee table sold, I started to wonder, if what Martin predicted might actually start to happen.

Then, in a week, three people found my 5 canes on LJ and wrote me wanting me to make walking canes for them. So, they start asking me questions about this, and that, and what I've done in the past. So, I started furiously taking photos of canes I have on hand, and some in a store, and some I had already shipped out, and started posting those photos. Martin had asked me a long time ago to "cross-tie" links from one of my projects to another, as apparently it helps with the search engines to find content. So, just as I was asked, I started cross-linking projects. And I did this on my old and new canes postings. The residual effect for me is that one customer can got to one cane, and find all of the others very easily. Tying them together so that a prospect could find the details and view each cane and tell me what they liked from each one.

Saturday night, it worked, and a new commission came from a guy that told me he liked this handle, and that carving, and that detail, how to modify this, and that, to suit him perfectly. And in what took a matter of minutes with him scrolliing through a bunch of linked cane postings, he was able to express to me what he wanted built in one short email.

So, the postings of the canes was a result of actual business, and so I decided to load a bunch more canes up to comlipment the process.

I hadn't taken the time to post so many canes before, since they just weren't selling on the internet well. If I take them to shows, or stick them in a consignment store, they seem to find homes. So, why spend the investment of more canes on LJ? This was the question I had answered for me when one of my 5 posted canes found three orders in a week.

So, just this weekend, after this hideous assualt of cane postings, I have gotten quite a bit of criticism. I understand your points, and again say I'm sorry.

I can assure you, it won't happen again like this.

If Martin changes the posting rules, or separating pros from hobbyists, that is fine. I will comply, and move and adapt as the community needs us all to do.

By the way Shangraw, could you post some more of your awesome bowls? I enjoyed seeing them.

Mark DeCou
www.decoustudio.com


----------



## Yettiman (Mar 2, 2008)

Mark,

I am sorry you have felt it needed, to write such a long explaination, glad you did, as sharing in this way is what a lot of us joined LJ's for. The personal touch.

Why am I sorry? because you felt it was needed, and I hate to think of the torment behind the words.

I am just a newbie, lucky enough to be able to 'play' at woodworking, but I am VERY aware without the skill, patience, and generosity of professionals such as yourself, LJ would not be the place I have come to love.


----------



## grumpycarp (Feb 23, 2008)

Marc, (and Martin)

One of the things that has troubled me in my brief association with LJ and its attendant readership is a sort of pollyanna vibe. To wit: "nice piece" or "Beautiful". There is NEVER dissent. Until now . . .

I do not object to you using this site for alleged personal gain. Every one does. If not for financial then personal. No one, including myself, posts an idea, statement or project, without personal investment, temporal, idealogical, financial or egotistical. It is not an act of humility to blog one's accomplishments and it is not an act of contrition to publicly post photos of one's accomplishments. To pretend otherwise is hypocrisy. We all do it if only to satisfy our ego.

To the rest of you:

What I do find profoundly irritating is the constant proselytizing and off topic ranting and questions. If Jesus/Jahweh/Allah recently upgraded to XP what would he/they/it do? Likewise the birth/death/injury announcements as well as photos of grandchildren etc. I don't come into your place of worship and demand answers to questions about the difference between 220/220p grit abrasives and would demand the same consideration within these venerated halls of discourse. If you take offense to this do the right thing and address me off line, not on this forum.

I try, in my posts, to provide guidance to and take criticism from all. And it seems (gladly) so do most of you. If all the readers only give out the glad hand then no one moves forward. Much can be gained by constructive criticism, and while you (Marc) have received an undue measure of the less than constructive variety I wish to go on record to show my admiration of the manner in which you have handled it. I hope in my hour I am able to do the same.

Yours in respect,
Dan Sayler


----------



## mrtrim (Oct 11, 2007)

*mark decou* , i read many im sorrys in your post . i for one think you deserve some of those in return . i will offer you some right now . im sorry you feel compelled to appologize for posting your great projects .
im also sorry your projects have been recently reffered to as not being *real *projects . they are wood you made them and personally i think that makes then as *real* as anyone elses . im sorry that some of us dont have the ability to skip over a project that we are not interested in . maybe someone needs to do a tutorial on this ?? im also sorry i havent commented on your recent projects . i certainly do enjoy them , however some time back there was a big to do about how people comment on thier work . rather than take the time to make a list of those who appreciated the type comment i make usually nice job or nice piece 
and those who dont , i chose the easy way out and gave up commenting on them for the most part .
so theres a few im sorrys back at you . i think your efforts deserve much more . it might do us all well to make 2 lists one of what we give to the site and one of what we take from it . i know my take list far out weighs my give and for that im very much in debt to all members . theres not many places in life we can take more than we give . i count my blessings ! im verne gray and probably the only one who approves this message ! good day !


----------



## jcees (Dec 31, 2007)

I err… uhh… geez… Boy, did I just step into the Twilight Zone!!! I haven't read this much of a misunderstanding in one spot since my ill-fated dissent of another LJs work a couple of weeks back. All I can say is, Mark Decou, it's your turn! And apparently, yours too, Leon.

So let's get one thing straight RIGHT NOW: LJs is MANY things and so more than just a mutual admiration society. My woodworking soul finds succor here. I can find out how others do things that might enhance/improve my own work. *Everything *else I can do without and have, quite frankly, learned to ignore. And trust me, that is a skill set in itself for *LIFE*!

You can *NEVER *know with complete certainty how someone will take criticism, comment or even compliments. And I think that's just grand. I don't fret about it as I learned that lesson when still a wee lad. Some folks will never like you despite your best efforts while others will adore you for knowing how to process a board SS&T by hand. Go figure.

So Mark, Leon and et al, you might try my philosophy; don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things.

always,
J.C.


----------



## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Mark, I want to be perfectly clear that any comments I made in this topic were never intended to be anti-Mark Decou at all. I know how much you have contributed to this site, and how much expertise you have taken the time to share with us amateurs.

I was never angry or upset about your cane postings. When the topic came up, I threw my two cents in that if *a bunch* of pros were doing multiple postings for business purposes it would hamper my enjoyment of the site. And my reasoning for that is simply that I make an attempt to view every project that goes up, and offer encouragement and advice to fellow amateurs whenever possible. When I'm pressed for time, which is often, I just feel a bit overwhelmed when multiple postings go up, whether pro or weekender.

But at the end of the day, I love this site and am perfectly happy with however Martin, or the majority of LJ's, wants things to be.

I guess the main point I'm trying to make is that sometimes people will disagree about this or that, and that is okay. I don't think there is anything wrong with having a forum topic where people voice their opinions on various sides of a debate. As far as I'm concerned, that is all it was. No big deal. I'm sorry that it seemed to turn into some sort of pro-Mark vs. anti-Mark thing where you felt compelled to wrote a lengthy explanation/apology.

I assure you it was never my intention (and I hope it wasn't taken that way) to come off as some miserable control freak trying to dictate how the site should be run.

And again, thank you Mark for all you contribute… most of all, for the inspiration your beautiful work provides to guys like me.


----------



## leonmcd (Jul 12, 2007)

Mark, thank you very much for speaking up and expressing yourself so well.

Now for my turn.

I had no intention of offending anyone and never expected my post to turn into what it has.

When I first saw your cane projects, I was very impressed. Interesting designs and beautiful workmanship. As more and more posts showed up, I wondered what was going on. It seemed that you were posting an entire catalog ( my wording ). I started reading some of your posts in detail and seemed to me a littly salesy ( just my opinion ). I ran across a comment you made on one of your cane project posts about how you were doing a blitz-kreig (This was your word but since neither of us can spell blitz-kreig I chose to call it a flood) to boost your Google position.

I thought about doing a post to object to this use of the LJ site. Instead, I decided to post it as a marketing strategy and see what other LJ's had to say. Could be that I was the only one that didn't like it. Other than the recent flaming, I got a few comments that others preferred not to see so many projects at once. One bright spot was from Bill - Ad Maketing Guy who offered to explain to all of us how to use the internet to our advantage.

Since this started, I've gone back and looked at some of your earlier posts and blogs. The ones where you shared your knowledge, experience, and expertise. Those posts are exactly what I'm looking for. They are the reason I like LumberJocks so much. A chance for me to learn from those that have demonstrated an exceptional ability to create woodworking works of art. Thank you very much for sharing with all of us.

I'm not such a fan of project posts with just a photo and a list of woods used. Just my opinion. Not going to pass a law and make everyone post projects the way I want them. There is a site called etsy.com that has over 11,000 photos of woodworking projects. There are many other sites that have photos of woodworking projects. If LJ's projects are just photos, how is it different than these sites?

In previous posts I have suggested 

a limit of 1 project post a day
a separate galley where you could post photos of your work without going through the project page. Apparently you made a similar request of Martin.
adding some filters so that people can filter out projects by tag or poster.

All these suggestions were offered in the sense of trying to make LumberJocks even better. Martin has done a worderful job creating LumberJocks but it is growing so fast that I think some things will need to change.

Have to admit, this recent flaming has really soured my whole LumberJocks experience. Before I saw your post today, I was composing my LumberJock's resignation letter. If the friendly atmosphere, the sharing of opinions and woodworking expertise go away why should I stay?

Your comments reminded me that most LumberJocks are really nice people that share my love of oodworking.

Thank you for your comments.

Leon


----------



## JohnGray (Oct 6, 2007)

Mark DeCou I'm having a real problem with the people that are having such a fuss about you posting your projects, don't they have anything else to do? I personally think "the more picture posts the better" they give me a great many of ideas for projects. If people don't like what's posted going on to another screen is just a key stroke or two away, if you don't approve don't look.
I personally enjoy your posts and encourage you to please post MORE.


----------



## shangrila (Apr 5, 2007)

Mark ,Hang in there guy!!!I think most LJ enjoy seeing your postings.You bring up a good point about the time spent replying to emails and phone calls as a result of posting on LJ I have had some very similiar experiences.I don't know if a lot of people think about that.
I only wish I could express myself as well as you do in your writings(not to mention I can't spell or type worth a darn,as everyone's probably noticed)I would love to add the detailed wording to the creative process as you do!!I'm trying to talk my wife into typing for me but seems she expects something in return,hmmm!!Anyway don't get your stomach in knots and as far as I'm concerned you have absolutly nothing to apoligize for.Keep up the great work and postings!!!

Take care
Scott


----------



## hisparadox (Mar 1, 2008)

way too many apologies in this thread, although alot of accuracy in the negative aftermath of being a contributing member of this community, which I can vouch for first hand from the increase in spam, as well as an assault on my internet messenger, but thats all part of being out there for the world to see.

there seems to be a desire to limit the posting of projects, it appears to me that the postings occur after the dust settles in the shop, and everyday life, when the project makers have the time to to contribute, they do, to say that by doing so creates a problem for everyone because they dont get top billing for a long enough period of time is not a problem that needs to be addressed with post limits, any more than there should be limits on the amount of members, or limits on who outside of the community can view the content.
that problem needs to be addressed in the architecture of the program itself, perhaps with a rotation, or refresh feature, quite honestly, when I log into lumberjocks, I would like the ability to see each any every project posted for that day,the more the better as well as any other current postings, and if I dont get to read through them that day, Id like to come back the next day, and have what I hadnt already looked at available to me in a simple fashion.
the fact that some of us are more in business than others is fine, fact is, we are all in business in the end, everything is for sale for the right price, if however I build something that I sell on a regular basis, I dont think its such a terrible thing for me to say. I build this for people all the time, and sell them for $X, at least in an open forum, a sales pitch, or negotiation should take part either in private, or off site.
the possibility of a professional side of the page for a fee, or commission on sales is something worth considering, but those fees or commissions would have to be within perspective to sites more geared towards selling, and there would have to be some degree of promotion involved.
finally, countering perceived negativity or attack with the like draws attention equally to all parties involved, I for one, when I come across this sort of situation go back and review previous postings by all involved, and try to get a better idea of who each individual is in the interaction, look around at what people say, and more often than not, you will find that they are relatively consistant, some guys bash, others praise, others yet try to stimulate discussion for the sake of the group, along the way, my opinions are swayed sometimes, stay the same other times, and are strengthened in other situations, we learn by example each and every day, who to be, and who not to be.
if you created something each and every day for a month, and on day 32, you have all day to photo it all, and write it up, I think it should all be posted, the solution is not in limiting, it is in figuring out how to showcase everything effectively.


----------



## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

Ya


----------

