# Failed glue up.



## DirtyMike (Dec 6, 2015)

Hello all, just thought i would share a rather unpleasant experience while making a cutting board. Sorry no pics. last night I was making an end grain cutting board with walnut and maple, after squaring all the strips I started the glue up with titebond 3 and pipe clamps. After an hour i pulled it from the clamps and started cutting strips to make a checker board. I started to have the strips break apart at the joint, No strength at all. I proceeded to break more and before long it was a disaster. Glue coverage was adequate, clamping pressure was good and even, must be the glue? Yep, looks like it was a Little too cold in the shop last night and the glue just didn't work. I did several test to verify this and it all pointed to glue being too cold. even though it was above the manufacturers temp, it didn't like being cold. The joints are still failing this morning despite being in the house all night. anyone have anything similar happen?


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## mrbob (Nov 3, 2016)

Doesn't it tell you on the bottle wait 24 hours before stressing joints.


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## atouchofoz (Jul 2, 2015)

Yup! And not only does the glue not do what it is supposed to do when it is cold here in the high desert south west, neither did my band saw blade! It broke after it did about two rounds on the wheel. Then I went to use the quick setting glue stuff, and it was as hard as a rock! So I went to My scroll saw and it's motor was very irregular. It would go fast then slow then stall. I finally figured something was telling me it was not going to be a good day in my little shop as I bounced around trying to finish or do 'something'! I am sorry about your time spent being in failure. I certainly know how that feels, and then some. By the way, It was ONLY 42 degrees in the shop. Hump! And that isn't even cold compared to other locations! ~Suzanne


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## Ted78 (Dec 3, 2012)

Yea, combination of being cold and not enough set time. I think the glue will set just fine in anything above freezing eventually, but the colder it is, the longer it takes.


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## DirtyMike (Dec 6, 2015)

> Doesn t it tell you on the bottle wait 24 hours before stressing joints.
> 
> - mrbob


 Yes sir it does, And normally I would have waited longer but i have a lot of orders to get done and needed the clamps. I have some test pieces in the clamps right now that will get the full 24.


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## DanielP (Mar 21, 2013)

I've had the same thing happen recently. It was mid forties so the wood strips were at about that temperature. I keep the Titebond lll in the house so it was at room temperature when applied on to colder wood in the colder garage. After gluing it was brought into house to set overnight.

Two days later when I put it under pressure it failed completely. No torn out wood whatsoever.


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## JBrow (Nov 18, 2015)

DirtyMike,

I have heard or read that if woodworking glue freezes it can spoil the glue. I am not sure whether it is true or the source of this problem. But, given the failures you are experiencing, buying some fresh glue and warming the lumber to 70 degrees or so (in the house), proceeding to glue-up in the cold garage and the when any dripping of glue has subsided (to keep a mess out of the house), moving the glue-up back from the garage into the house for curing would be my method for the next glue-up.


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## DirtyMike (Dec 6, 2015)

Very good advice Jbrow, I dont think we have cold enough weather in my area to freeze anything yet, but the glue was bad. my test pieces have been clamped 24 hours inside and still failed, the squeeze out on the contractors paper i put under my clamps is still wet. After researching my problem today i have found that many others have had similar problems with titebond 3 in colder conditions . The only problems i have ever had with glue ups have been with Tb3. So i bought a gallon super fresh TB 2. Good news is I just ordered a nice shop heater, told the wife I cant afford anymore downtime due to low temps. And everything works better at temp.

For any interested on how to read the titebond date code: 
A61023…. A= America 6=year 10=month 23= day


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## mrbob (Nov 3, 2016)

> Very good advice Jbrow, I dont think we have cold enough weather in my area to freeze anything yet, but the glue was bad. my test pieces have been clamped 24 hours inside and still failed, the squeeze out on the contractors paper i put under my clamps is still wet. After researching my problem today i have found that many others have had similar problems with titebond 3 in colder conditions . The only problems i have ever had with glue ups have been with Tb3. So i bought a gallon super fresh TB 2. Good news is I just ordered a nice shop heater, told the wife I cant afford anymore downtime due to low temps. And everything works better at temp.
> 
> For any interested on how to read the titebond date code:
> A61023…. A= America 6=year 10=month 23= day
> ...


FYI TiteBond 2 is water proof except for under water all the time applications.


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## DirtyMike (Dec 6, 2015)

Yes sir, I know it is not ideal for cutting boards and other kitchen utensils. I have had titebond 3 react to tannins and turn black and after this i just dont trust it.


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## UncannyValleyWoods (Apr 18, 2013)

> Yes sir it does, And normally I would have waited longer but i have a lot of orders to get done and needed the clamps. I have some test pieces in the clamps right now that will get the full 24.
> 
> - DirtyMike


So, ultimately, what you've decided is that you'd rather send cutting boards to people that will DEFINITELY fall apart instead of doing the job properly? What that means for the rest of us is that we are now going to run into even more people at craft fairs who say "I paid a lot of money for an end grain board made by someone in their garage before, and it just fell apart on me." It's really hard to stand there and argue with that. I mean, what do you say, "Oh, well mine are made better?" Customers don't want to hear that. I mean, the whole point of making something by hand is the fact that it's a quality product and not some Chinese mass produced piece of crap.

Do everyone a solid and wait 24 hours between glue ups. If you've got that many orders, go buy more clamps.

Sorry not sorry for this rant.


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## splintergroup (Jan 20, 2015)

I also live in the high desert and have experienced the same problem. This time of year I've learned to keep the shop temps up at night when gluing, don't glue below 65 deg. and keep the glue in the house. Regular TB states it can handle several freezes, but I don't trust that.


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## DirtyMike (Dec 6, 2015)

> Yes sir it does, And normally I would have waited longer but i have a lot of orders to get done and needed the clamps. I have some test pieces in the clamps right now that will get the full 24.
> 
> - DirtyMike
> 
> ...


Kind of hard to decipher your point there, I read a lot of opinion. Glue up failed because of glue not clamp time. I proved that with a test afterward. I dont sell anything that will fail due to my construction/ design. If you would like to discuss the matter of my craftsmanship anymore pm me your address. I would love to talk to you in person.


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## DirtyMike (Dec 6, 2015)

Also I noticed that you had to repair one of your sold cutting boards due to moisture. Do you not seal your boards? You speak of quality heirloom cutting boards yet you sell cutting boards that have end grain glued to face grain? That joint will fail, since your boards are not properly sealed movement will cause that joint fail. But i bet its out of your warranty when it does.

- DirtyMike


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## UncannyValleyWoods (Apr 18, 2013)

> Also I noticed that you had to repair one of your sold cutting boards due to moisture. Do you not seal your boards? You speak of quality heirloom cutting boards yet you sell cutting boards that have end grain glued to face grain? That joint will fail, since your boards are not properly sealed movement will cause that joint fail. But i bet its out of your warranty when it does.
> 
> - DirtyMike
> 
> - DirtyMike


That's right. And since it's clear you can read, perhaps you noticed noticed the part about the customer leaving it in a puddle of standing water for days. Not much I can do about that.

Look lady, you posted an entire thread amazed that your glue up failed after you tried to cross cut after only an hour. The simple fact that you attempted this gives my comment all the merit it deserves. You basically said "Hey everyone, I'm trying to cut corners because I didn't plan well enough in advance, and can you believe that ******************** is breaking down on me?"

Really dude. Don't cut corners. Leave it to cure in the clamps for 24 hours.


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## diverlloyd (Apr 25, 2013)

Leave them clamped for 24 hours and if you left the glue out it the cold it will ruin it. If it's below 60 degrees outside then bring everything in and clamp it up inside.


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## DirtyMike (Dec 6, 2015)

> Also I noticed that you had to repair one of your sold cutting boards due to moisture. Do you not seal your boards? You speak of quality heirloom cutting boards yet you sell cutting boards that have end grain glued to face grain? That joint will fail, since your boards are not properly sealed movement will cause that joint fail. But i bet its out of your warranty when it does.
> 
> - DirtyMike
> 
> ...


test pieces with the same glue, same wood, same conditions still failed after 24 hours of clamp time . Clamp Time was not the issue, defective glue was, which i suspect was to due to lower temps in my shop. I posted this thread because its that time of year where cooler temps can really affect woodworking. thought it might help someone. I didnt post it for some 2 bit judgmental hypocrite to criticize my work or methods. I do admit that 1 hour clamp time is not ideal but it was not the cause of my failure. would you consider gluing end grain to face grain without any other joinery other than glue cutting corners? Take that self entitled attitude somewhere else, I dont need it.


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## DirtyMike (Dec 6, 2015)

Easy now Brandon, I love criticism but i dont care for criticism that is not needed. Constructive criticism is one thing but going on a long rant against me because something i made failed is crazy. trust me, Kid you really dont want to get into a pissing match with me. So please leave this thread. leave Obama alone too.


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## UncannyValleyWoods (Apr 18, 2013)

> Easy now Brandon, I love criticism but i dont care for criticism that is not needed. Constructive criticism is one thing but going on a long rant against me because something i made failed is crazy. trust me, Kid you really dont want to get into a pissing match with me. So please leave this thread. leave Obama alone too.
> 
> - DirtyMike


Dude, you literally asked for my address so you could come kick my ass for telling you clamp your stuff up for 24 hours. Maybe it's time for you to paint yourself orange and tweet about how some rando on the internet told you you were wrong. Maybe that'll make you feel better. I get that you wanna "Make Wood Working Great Again" but cutting corners and throwing out the rules isn't going to help your cause.


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## DirtyMike (Dec 6, 2015)

I was being serious, and meant no hostility. I was hoping someone as exsperianced as your self could give me some pointers. lunch at mamies, my treat.


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## Ted78 (Dec 3, 2012)

Well, in an attempt to bring things back to civility, I'm curious to the different chemistry's between the type ii and type iii titebond glues. Her's my understanding, if someone knows better please jump in.

Regular PVA poly vinyl acetate = regular white glue 'Elmer's Glue All" This works just fine for most of what I do by the way

PVA modified with Aliphatic resins = wood glue, yellow carpenter's glue. In my experience is IS a bit stronger than white glue, it is also a bit tackier, I don't know if this is just becasue they put less water in it or if it has something to do with the resins, It also dries a bit harder, more brittle and less rubbery than regular PVA white glue, I suspect this is due to the resin but just guessing

Water resistant PVA glue such as Titebond II and III. I know these are also PVA glues that have obviously been modified in some say, I read somewhere with 'strands of polymers' which is pretty non-descriptive, that might even jsut refer to the aliphatic resins. regular white pva glue is a polymer. Maybe they get cross linked somehow in the waterproof versions? I also found somewhere that apparently while titebond III had a longer open time, but can be applied in temps as low as 45 degrees, while titebond ii must be 55 degrees, which makes me much less confident in my first post.


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## Mr_McGlue (Jun 16, 2016)

My shop is covered outdoors. Doesn't get too cold here but 40's at night. My Titebond III seemed like it separated a bit in the bottle one time so I always shake it up before using if it has sat a while.

Also 24 hours glue time is in whatever ideal conditions they test or suggest under.

Rush cutting something after only an hour of set time in cooler damper weather probably isn't ideal.


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## DanielP (Mar 21, 2013)

Okay, this was worth researching further so I went back through the archives and found this post by ChuckV, from 4-21-2012 under topic Titebond info…..

"I have an unheated shop in New England. In the cold weather, I always do glue-ups in the house. I use Titebond III.

During the Spring and Fall, the temperature is often high enough to glue-up in the shop during the day, but then drops below the recommended temperature at night. In this situation, I haul the piece into the house for the night. I wondered if this is necessary. Using the form at titebond.com, I asked how long after glue-up the temperature is important.

I received an excellent response in just 30 minutes. I thought I would share this information, as well as give a big thumbs-up to the customer service.

Titebond III will not chemically perform at or below its stated Chalk temperature of 47° F. If you reduce the temperature of the wood, glue or room below the chalking temperature, the glue does not coalesce (form a continuous film) on drying. This is evidenced by a dried film which is whiter than normal and looks "chalky." Where the bond is formed at all, the resultant strength of a chalked glue joint is lower than normal and will always remain weak and often times will fail.

In regards to timeframe, the temperature really needs to be maintained for a minimum of 24 hours after glue up. At temperatures closer to the 47° F, you may want to wait 36 hours to be sure the glue has dried completely." end quote
.


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## diverlloyd (Apr 25, 2013)

Good digging Dan I'm glad you was able to find that post.


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## saltfly (Jan 11, 2017)

I come mostly from the boat building end of wood working. I was wondering why food safe epoxy isn' t used by anyone here. A number of guys on a boat building forum have been using it for a long while now, and have never had a joint fail. Also you can buy it in any number of curing times.


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## UncannyValleyWoods (Apr 18, 2013)

> I come mostly from the boat building end of wood working. I was wondering why food safe epoxy isn t used by anyone here. A number of guys on a boat building forum have been using it for a long while now, and have never had a joint fail. Also you can buy it in any number of curing times.
> 
> - saltfly


Cost is a big factor, especially if you are trying to sell the boards. Epoxy is a much bigger investment that TB III, over all. It also adds an additional layer of hazard to the sanding process. These are at least my reasons.


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## saltfly (Jan 11, 2017)

The cost isn't as high as people think. I don't buy it retail. I by from a commercial supplier. And like any glue, there are many different grades. Food safe is one of the least expensive. A boat builder friend uses it for all his deck encapsulations. Its cheaper and doesn't have to be a high strength epoxy. I'll give an example. West system is one every one knows. Its a marine grade and sells for $160 and gal kit. Another supplier sells US Composites which sells for less then $100 a gal. I have found it from other suppliers for as low as $60 a gal kit. The thing is you have to shop around. Now as for another point. Boat restorers use 100 times more then most wood workers. Just to do a deck of a 22 ft. cc. Takes 5 gals. And once you put it together, its not going to come apart. If it comes apart,where is the savings and their goes your rep.


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## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

This thread is pretty misleading….
Titebond specifically states.
"For most of our wood glues, we recommend clamping an unstressed joint for thirty minutes to an hour. Stressed joints need to be clamped for 24 hours." 
Are they including Titebond 3 in the "most of"? No idea….I can't honestly remember ever reading the instructions, although I'm sure I did once upon a time?
The only reason I had a look at their website for specs was that if the info in this thread was correct, I've been doin' it wrong for a lot of years…....and it works great.

Titebond 3, if it's a busy day stays in the carrier for an hour. Many hundreds (and hundreds) of treads done this way. No fails.
Titebond Original, If it's a busy day stays in the carrier for about 30 minutes. Many thousands (and thousands) of treads done this way. No fails.
'Most' sit for anywhere between 6-24 hours after unclamping, before milling.

Don't tell….but on more than one occasion, I've sent rough tread plates through the planer an honest 15 minutes after gluing with Titebond original. That's really pushing it though.

Assuming all millwork is done properly, proper temps, and glue that isn't defective, the OP did nothing wrong.


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

> Titebond Original, If it s a busy day stays in the carrier for about 30 minutes. Many thousands (and thousands) of treads done this way. No fails.
> 
> Don t tell….but on more than one occasion, I ve sent rough tread plates through the planer an honest 15 minutes after gluing with Titebond original. That s really pushing it though.
> 
> - Tony_S


Ditto, although never the planer, but through the wide belt many a time.


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## UncannyValleyWoods (Apr 18, 2013)

> The cost isn t as high as people think. I don t buy it retail. I by from a commercial supplier. And like any glue, there are many different grades. Food safe is one of the least expensive. A boat builder friend uses it for all his deck encapsulations. Its cheaper and doesn t have to be a high strength epoxy. I ll give an example. West system is one every one knows. Its a marine grade and sells for $160 and gal kit. Another supplier sells US Composites which sells for less then $100 a gal. I have found it from other suppliers for as low as $60 a gal kit. The thing is you have to shop around. Now as for another point. Boat restorers use 100 times more then most wood workers. Just to do a deck of a 22 ft. cc. Takes 5 gals. And once you put it together, its not going to come apart. If it comes apart,where is the savings and their goes your rep.
> 
> - saltfly


A gallon of TB III costs me $27 and it doesn't out gas or fill my shop with fumes.


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