# water based stain - poly - over dewaxed shellac



## lepelerin (Jan 13, 2012)

Hi,

I would like to know if I can use dewaxed shellac under a water based stain on blotchy prone wood.
I've read contradictory advice, yes you can and no you cannot.

What is the deal?

I would like to get Charles Neil product but to get that in Canada, it would cost me approx $60 which is out of my budget at the moment. Not CN fault at all. I can get dewaxed shellac for $10.

My plan is to use dewaxed shellac as a "sealer" and apply water based stain and Arm-N-Seal.

So if I "seal" the wood with dewaxed shellac can I use water based stain on top of it.

Thank you for your advice.

The wood I plan to stain is walnut and cherry.

A


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## jmos (Nov 30, 2011)

I'm sure you'll get more authoritative answers than mine, but dewaxed shellac is compatible with pretty much everything; you can use a water based finish or stain on top of it.

Depending on the cut of shellac you will seal off the wood to greater degrees. If you use a very thin cut (say 1/2lb to 1lb) you should still get some absorption of stain into the wood, it will just limit the penetration and help control blotching. If you use a fairly heavy cut (2lb+) the stain will be more of a glaze, sitting on top of the shellac and not penetrating the wood very much (which isn't always a bad thing.)

I'd say try it on a few test boards and see if you like the results; vary the cut and see how the stain looks.


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## Earlextech (Jan 13, 2011)

I use 1lb cut dewaxed under my waterborn stain and top coat. Test on a scrap until you know you'll get the penetration you want from the stain. Too thick sealcoat and you wont get enough penetration. This is a technique that needs to be practiced before application.


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## SCOTSMAN (Aug 1, 2008)

A good idea with testing first. Let us know what happens please, as I am interested in the results of this too..My understanding is it should work ok. Alistair


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## TheDane (May 15, 2008)

In general, shellac can go under any finish or over any finish.


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## lepelerin (Jan 13, 2012)

Excellent news, thank you. This is what I thought that dewaxed shellac could be applied under and over virtually anything. 
In "Wood finishing" by Joe Lerario" it says does not use any water based products over shellac. so his advice is completely wrong.
I just got the Bob Flexner "Wood finishing 101" at my library (the only book about finishing that they carry!) and it seems a decent book for a total noob like me about finishing. I wished they had "Understanding wood finishing" by B. Flexner or "Finishing Simply put" by Charles Neil but nope and they won't order them. There is no demand for such books they told me. What did I just ask them!

Thanks for the advice. I will try on scrap pieces before.


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

The dewaxed part is only important to anything with urethane resins in it (oil based) or some water borne. The urethane resins inhibit adhesion, combine that with waxy shellac and it can (or not) be a problem. Lerario's advice is probably referring to that circumstance. But dewaxed is safe under anything, including urethanes and water borne.


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

I just saw this, I understand about the cost, , it typically cost about 16.00 per qt to ship to Canada, and we have a concentrate that makes 2 qts.,HOWEVER, Tell me what wood your using and we may be able to find a solution, The shellac does work, used it for years, the issue is the "cut" and color retention, the frustration of it is what caused me to invent the Blotch control, but on some woods you can " skate by " with other means .. Glad to help if I can .


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## upinflames (Jun 24, 2012)

If you have the water based poly, just thin it down at around 75% water and 25% poly and lookie here, you have wood conditioner. You might play with the ratio to get the stain to penetrate to your liking.


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## Bonka (Apr 13, 2012)

I love CN's Blotch Control. In the past and at times now I will make a sizing from hide glue, e.g., watery. I wipe this on and let it dry 24 hours and the dyes/stains go on evenly on pine, fir, etc. It even makes end grain absorb the color the same. I am looking at a fire place shelf made fro fir and the end grain and all of the other areas are the same.


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## lepelerin (Jan 13, 2012)

@ CharlesNeil: My plan is to use Amber dye from General finishes and a top coat of Arm-N-Seal 
I will be using the stain and A-n-S on Walnut, Cherry, beech and birch. 
I would like to make the grain of walnut stand out.

My plan is to give a light coat of shellac, thinly cut, let it dry very well and lightly sand it with 400-600. Then apply the stain, lightly sand it, see if I want another coat of stain, if yes sand it again and topcoat with A-n-S.

Anything wrong in my plan?
PS: I asked Lee Valley to import your product in Canada, I hope they will.
Thank you


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

I think you will be fine, the issue is to get the cut of the shellac right, or any thing else, thats the tough part,. so yo uhave to test to be sure. My issue was it seemed when I had the cut working on one pieces of wood it was either too heavy or too light on another, I always used it from 1/4 lb cut to 1/2 lb cut, but again you have to test.

I have never used the Hide glue sizing, except for a veneer treatment, to stabilize a unruly veneer, but it may work. Again the issue is getting the ratio correct…


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## Tony1212 (Aug 26, 2013)

Last summer I did a full wall of built in cabinets and a kitchen table from BB ply and maple (rather light woods). Here was my finishing schedule:

- Waterbased Dye to a dark reddish brown (I was trying for cherry, but I think I hit mahogany. Still looks pretty good)
- Zinsser Seal Coat Dewaxed Shellac
- Varathane Gel stain to darken the color even more
- Dewaxed Shellac
- 3 coats Water Based poly

I think it turned out pretty well. I put up a project here. My wife loves it and wants me to do the rest of the kitchen cabinets the same way.


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## lepelerin (Jan 13, 2012)

Thank you all for the answers and advice. I will definitively try on a scrap piece of wood before doing it on the final project.
I really appreciate your help.


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