# smoothing plane leaving scalloped surface



## Jeff82780 (Mar 15, 2010)

I just bought a woodriver no.4 yesterday and i love it. I sharpened the blade and put a slight camber on it. However, when preparing the board for finish, I am gettting a scalloped surface instead of a smooth one.
It's not noticeable to the eye, but you can feel them when you run your hand across the board. I baerely have the blade retracted. I/ getting really thin shavings. The blade is aligned perfectly. The only thing i can think of is that i put to much camber on it, but it doesn't look like it to me. Am i missing something? Why is my smoother not leaving a surface ready for finish? Any thoughts?

Thanks, Jeff


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## jmos (Nov 30, 2011)

I can't think of any other reason for the scallop other than too cambered a blade and too deep a cut. Try taking a more shallow cut and see if that helps. I've always seen that a smoother should have a barely cambered blade.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

A subtle scalloping of the surface is normal in smooth planing. It is
the mark of hand craftsmanship. If it bothers you, scrape and sand
lightly with a soft sanding block after planing and the surface can
be easily brought to a more uniform state.


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## Boomr99 (Jul 1, 2009)

I disagree with Loren and John, sorry guys!
A fine smoothing plane should leave a surface ready for finish, or very near to it. And I'm guessing thats what your expecting. Here's a reality that few people know about, but I have come to realize restoring many many planes of various qualities. Take this for what it is worth as I have never owned a Woodriver plane, and never used or fettled one. Besides too much camber sharpened into the blade, there is one other reason you can get scalloping. Your lever cap is too tight. Back the screw off a half a turn and try again. Depending on the surface of the frog, you could actually be bowing the blade slightly, exagerating your camber and giving you the scalloped surface. A good smoothing plane needs several factors to work as it should, and as your expecting, not the least of which is an uber sharp blade. It also needs a flat frog and the right amount of tension to hold it in place but not to add stress to it. Of course check the flatness of your sole as well. Your blade should have no camber, only a slight relieving of the *backside * of the corners of the blade. You want full width shavings, but you don't want the edges of the blade to leave ridges, so slightly relieve them on the finest stone (only) that you use. On a bevel down blade, don't bother with micro bevels or secondary bevels on the beveled edge. Change your cutting angle (if you must) with a back bevel only, and this back bevel is also where you relieve the edges. No camber. No scallops. 
Try these things and I can pretty much gaurantee you'll have better results, near perfect if done right.

Ryan


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## Jeff82780 (Mar 15, 2010)

thanks for all the advice! I backed off the frog a bit and still no luck. So I went to my sharpening stones to try to remove the camber a little and just relieve the edges . this is what the blade looks like now










After all of this I am still getting scallops! so frustrating! So i guess i can assume that i just need to straighten the blade a bit more on my stones?


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## mook (Apr 16, 2011)

Jeff,
Your picture shows a blade with FAR too much camber for smoothing purposes. It needs to be very slight indeed , in the order of a few thous of an inch , which you get by pressing harder alternately on each side of the blade when honing. You also need to reduce the sharp corners a bit -you can use a stone for this.
Loren has it right when saying "a subtle scalloping ….." 
I want to see a large surface , like a dining table top, that has been planed with a blade that is dead straight (plus corners reduced): there will be marks left of an unacceptable kind, for sure, and they will come to light when the polish goes on or the wife/ girl friend/client takes delivery…..
P.S: you still get a full width shaving when there is a camber as I describe, except that the edges taper to almost nothing.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

I agree with Ryan and Philip. There is an easier way to approach it by sharpening flat and just rounding the corners. A smoother shouldn't have a camber. I sharpen mine as Phil described. Just reduce (or round) the corners.


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## Doss (Mar 14, 2012)

In with *Ryan*, *Philip*, and *Don*, I think there's way too much camber there. Enough that you'd experience what you're feeling.

I'm not a handtool or planing expert, but that profile seems to be producing exactly what you think it would… scallops.


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## carguy460 (Jan 3, 2012)

My smoother was sharpened initially before I knew what a camber on an iron was, so its straight across and I haven't had any issues with scalloping…I'm guessing that's your problem, I'd be interested to know the results if you take the camber out.


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## Jeff82780 (Mar 15, 2010)

is there a special technique in rounding the edges?


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## jmos (Nov 30, 2011)

I'm rather curious too if there's a trick. What kind of radius?

I tried a straight blade with rounded corners on a jointer plane; worked great on edges, but left some subtle, but serious lines/ruts on a flat panel. I didn't see them at first, so I did a bunch of parts for a project, but when I saw them in raking light my heart sank. Took a lot of rework to get all those lines/ruts out.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

There are a lot of different ways, here is what I do. I typically sharpen with an eclipse type jig. On each succession of stone I hold the blade and jig tipped as far as I can for about 10 strokes on each side. This give a "camber" on each side or a rounded corner. Its just enough to not leave a line. The deeper you typically plane (or the thicker your shavings) the more prominent you need the camber to be (I might be using the word camber wrong here). Because the camber is only for the first 1/8" or so of blade.

Some stroke the blade as they tip, so its a stroke, tip a little, stroke tip a little more until its at full tip. This is probably a better technique if your going for a thicker shaving. And by thicker shaving I don't mean thick, its still a thin smoother type shaving. What kind of wood you work is also a factor.

If you free hand, just set the blade on the stone and spin it to create the same effect.

There are other ways as well. The idea is to get the blade to slightly taper off in the cut. How you get that taper isn't nearly as important as making sure its there.


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## jmos (Nov 30, 2011)

Thanks Don. The cambering I'm good at, it's the rounded corner concept that burnt me. I free-handed the blade on the stone to just round the corner, and apparently didn't do it correctly as it left the ruts/lines I mentioned above.

Anyone advocating the rounded corners up for sharing their technique?


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

the other thing that will leave the rut lines is the blade isn't perpendicular to the sides, so one side cuts lower than the other. If you don't skew the plane, do you get even thin shavings full width. A perfectly straight iron will leave tracks on both side. One that is off on the lateral adjustment will leave a deeper one on the thick side

See how this shaving is thin on the right side and thicker on the left. It may have left a track on the left side.










thin isn't as important as consistent, more like this










I site down the sole to get it right, but you can also use a thin piece of wood. Run it along both sides of the sole to cut with the iron and make sure even contact is being made with the wood.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

On more suggestion. If you are good at cambering (I could freehand a camber a lot quicker than a straight edge to) sharpen your blade straight, then just camber the last 1/8" of the blade. (on each side of course)


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## Johnnyblot (Mar 2, 2012)

It may also be technique. I plane from the left hand side into the middle, then from the right hand side into thr middle. I camber all my blades, ( including my block planes)- but I generally use a #5 1/2. Even for smoothing. 
As shown below. 


And-

I see no problem with Don & Ryan's technique, but I say some camber is required, usually approx 0.2- 0.3mm
I don't expect everyone to agree with me but this was exactly how I was taught by David Charlesworth himself, from honing the blade to planing the board. This is also explained in his first book (if you have it?)

Good luck.
Cheers,
John.
Edit- Don has beaten me to post- the point he's making about uneven shavings, taking a thicker cut on one side would give you marks/ scallops. As he said, turn over the plane and with a *thin* Shim of wood stroke it down the sole, across the blade to check the blade is protruding evenly across the mouth, taking off the same thin shaving from the shim. Hope this makes sense.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

so how do you smooth a panel without scallops if all of your blades are cambered John? Which by the way, I like the scalloped look and do it intentional on a lot of projects.


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## Jeff82780 (Mar 15, 2010)

wow! thanks for all of the help guys! I decided i buy a new iron this afternoon and start over. my shavings are thin and uniform as i sighted down the blade and used a piece of scrap wood to make sure the blade is even. I'm strting to think maybe i just have bad technique?


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## jmos (Nov 30, 2011)

I'm betting it was having one corner just slightly lower than the other that caused my problem; thanks for the insight guys.


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## Smile_n_Nod (Jan 20, 2011)

In his original post, Jeff mentioned that he could feel the slight scallops left by a smoothing plane. Last weekend I flattened and smoothed the surface of my Roubo bench (the camber on the smoother was about 0.002"), and I was amazed to discover that I can see and feel variations in the surface as small as a couple thousands of an inch (as measured with an accurate straightedge and feeler gauges).

I realized that I can learn almost as much about a board's topography with my finger tips and my reading-glasses-dependent eye-balls as I can with a straightedge and winding sticks-and it's faster, to boot.


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## Johnnyblot (Mar 2, 2012)

Don. To answer your question I went referred to David Charlesworth's first book, Furniture-Making Techniques. He says -"My preference is for either a #5 or 5 1/2 Jack Plane, with a blade sharpened to a slight convex curve… This allows a tapered shaving to be taken off at either side and an even shaving at the centre." 


So if you plane a board, taking fine (finishing) shavings, starting from the left edge and plane towards the middle of the board. Stop at the middle, lift off the plane and then start planing from the right hand side into the middle, you end up with a board (no matter how wide it may be) with a slight hollow, as in photo (with the straight edge) and level across the two edges.



A 'Scalloping' effect is not the aim here. The hollow is so small, especially with a 2 3/8" cutter /blade, with a slight camber, it is almost unseen, but is the tell-tale of a hand plane finish 
This is the best way I can describe it here. Hope it makes some sense!
Cheers
John.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

Thank, john, that does make sense. I like the wider flat in the middle though.


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## Johnnyblot (Mar 2, 2012)

Don- as you like it! It's still the tell of quality hand tool work we adore. 
Also, for me, to mis-quote Mr Ford- "Any colour you like as long as its black (or maybe blue), any size you like as long as its 2 3/8". Lol
Cheers


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

and this dog isn't to old to learn a new trick either. I'll be giving your technique a trial at some point, just because you just never know. If its Stanley its black, unless its maroon or blue 

besides, I like the scallop look. Its doesn't fit everywhere, but its got its place.


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