# Business angle



## woodworkingdrew (Dec 29, 2013)

I would like all of your feedback. I am prospecting the idea of starting a small side business. My question is, do you think I would be more profitable with outdoor furniture i.e. trellis, planter boxes, chairs or indoor furniture such as book cases, desks, chairs? What is the best angle to go with this? Thanks!


----------



## LeeBarker (Aug 6, 2010)

No easy answer-so much depends on your market and your marketing.

You must have a compelling reason in front of me, your customer, to drive me to buy from you instead of from the vendors I am accustomed to.

Loren has some good resources that could help you.

Kindly,

Lee


----------



## woodworkingdrew (Dec 29, 2013)

Who is Loren?


----------



## PLK (Feb 11, 2014)

http://lumberjocks.com/Loren


----------



## Loren (May 30, 2008)

There is no one best angle. There's how specialized you
want to get, your own ambition and present skills, the
limits of your work space to consider.

Apparently people like to buy things like picnic tables and
adirondack chairs. I don't do that kind of stuff because
I doubt it is really that profitable in a market like Los
Angeles where boards are not cheap. There's no forests
here for small time guys to cut and mill, so that means
wood is spendier than in some areas where domestic
hardwoods are easier to get at lower prices.

By way of example, one guy on here who does exquisite
high-end work also manages some sort of forested 
property in Hawaii so he gets his wood kind of for free - 
this is an amazing business advantage.

Woodworking is a hard business but all business is hard
in some way or another.

I make chairs and it is not easy to make ones that are so
nice you can get paid what they are worth. I am still
figuring it out. If you want to obsess on fine chairs or 
guitars or marquetry you can carve out a real name
for yourself.


----------



## mojapitt (Dec 31, 2011)

No one answer works for everyone. What works for me in my area would completely flop for someone else. A few thoughts,

1. Be unique, but remember that just because you think it is cool doesn't mean that it will sell. 
2. Watch what the trends are. 
3. Do not just build from the plans. Anyone can make copycat furniture. What sells is making the customer believe that they have something special. 
4. You are competing with cheap. Don't try to out - cheap them. Quality still sells. If all they want is cheap, give them directions to WalMart.

Just my 2 cents


----------



## Loren (May 30, 2008)

Monte's shop burned down and he's experiencing a setback
there. He also cuts and mills his own wood and while I'm sure
it's a lot of work it's probably kind of fun and allows him to
explore design ideas at price points I could not consider
due to my higher material costs. Check out his projects page, 
because it looks like he knows how to crank out OOAK work that
sells at effective price points in open-air type shows.

Here in L.A. there are a lot of affluent people and the population
is just dense as heck so the buyers are here but many are
still looking for better quality than they are willing to pay
for. That's the rub. Also many cabinet shops are Spanish 
speaking and guess what? The guys are pretty good, they
work hard and many of them make an hourly wage that
is not much better than working at Home Depot. That's not
your problem except that these shops may be able to beat
you on price for custom jobs and they know the game a
lot better from experience.

That's competition. That's business. If you want to get
out ahead of that you can do it in 3 major ways I can think
of off hand:

1) Lower material costs due to in-house lumbermaking or 
bulk buying power.

2) Higher productivity due to superior machinery investment
and optimization of workflow and labor.

3) Better skills at the craft of making really cool stuff.

... considering the cheap wood is probably not happening for
you, would you rather invest in some serious machinery (I'm
not referring to 10" cabinet saws and 8" jointers), or invest
in growing your capacity to produce exemplary and distinctive
work?

P.S. don't draw an opinion about me from my comments about 
immigrant labor. I'm from the east side of L.A. and I know the 
situation and respect all laborers and hustle. I've hired some
of these guys and they are good people to get a job done,
having integrity and resourcefulness.


----------



## mervillehomesteader (Jan 10, 2014)

Do something you enjoy. If you enjoy doing it all then do it all. and do it all till you find what you enjoy. I have found that art sells. If you can make furniture and call it some form of art, people will pay well for it. It has to be unique and Monte is right don't go by plans. People know when it doesn't come from the heart. Going by the book makes for boring woodwork.


----------



## wseand (Jan 27, 2010)

I wouldn't limit myself to one type or the other to start. I do whatever the customer wants me to make. 
I prefer not to make outdoor furniture around my area because there isn't many woods that do well outside around here. But, if i use the right finish it lasts longer.

Do your research in the area, local markets, local mills, art and craft shows. No one can tell you that doesn't live in your area what sells best.

To answer your question, in general I would say Indoor furniture is more profitable. I would truly just prefer to go get some outdoor furniture down at Lowe's then buy some over priced furniture made by someone, and there is a lot of good outdoor furniture readily available. I also prefer metal outdoor furniture in any environment. Real good high quality indoor furniture that doesn't cost an A&L is harder to find.

Good luck on your endeavor.


----------



## changeoffocus (Dec 21, 2013)

I see some very sound advice in the replies to your post.
I would try to dedicate a major portion of my work offering to high end repair even it meant going to the customers site. 
If you have a "way" with people, keep an ultra clean work space and the utmost respect for the customers property you will not have to miss any meals. 
It isn't about a customer wanting to get a cheap repair, it's about preserving a memory. 
If you are in their face, they will find other projects for you. 
A clean vehicle and store front is critical, it can be old but it has to be nice. 
We have a about 25% of our labor force working in the service sector of our HVAC business and they outperform the other 75% of the business. Need I say more? 
We've been doing this for 35 years and still growing. 
Good luck.


----------



## Loren (May 30, 2008)

I don't understand some of of FMARMC's comments in relation
to custom woodworking. I respect the spirit of them though.

I do not thing being in somebody's face is a way to get jobs.
"Top of mind" awareness is a good method though, and
useful in cultivating relationships with interior designers.
While these designers may have access to affluent clients,
they may want a markup on your work of 100% which
is problematic because it may in some situations inspire
them to lie to clients about the quality of the work. In
other words: they may beat you up on price in order
to double it and make the sale. It's probably a predatory
habit but it is perhaps fair compensation for their taste.

Wry comment above. Some clients have more money
than they know what to do with. They are not so easy
to get, even in L.A.


----------



## changeoffocus (Dec 21, 2013)

Here's an abbreviated version
Don't cheat your real job, your boss will catch you. 
Follow the Golden Rule


----------



## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

http://www.woodweb.com/index.html

HTH


----------



## HowardInToronto (Sep 27, 2013)

You've gotten some great answers here.

If you want to sell something people might dismiss as a commodity, you can stand out from the market by adding value. Custom sizes. Unique finishes. Things like that.

Take a look at your own knowledge and interests. Watch what people interested in the same things are currently buying.

But your best success? Think markets, not products.

Howard

Howard


----------



## woodworkingdrew (Dec 29, 2013)

Thank you all for the sound advice. It sounds like I need to do some research for my area. Thanks!


----------



## Hanman (Jan 6, 2012)

wseand pretty much summed it up. Most Americans would rather go buy something from Ikea or Lowes or some cheap fibercore bookshelf form Walmart than pay good money for a custom handmade piece of furniture. I'm a general contractor and would also love to be able to stay in the shop and just make furniture for a living, but it just doesn't pay. To make a living making furniture on your own you have to pretty much be an artist. Which is to say you would have to earn a reputation for producing truly unique, finely crafted items that people are willing to pay decent money for. If you figure out a business plan on how to do this, let me know!


----------



## woodworkingdrew (Dec 29, 2013)

hanman- I agree with your response. I was just looking for a way outside my full time job to make a little side money. Good luck with your business!


----------



## Kryptic (Nov 8, 2013)

what one persons thoughts are to sell a pair of shoes










is about as right as this left shoe is going


----------



## wseand (Jan 27, 2010)

Drew, 
Just go out and about find out what people are buying. Round my area we have A twice-weekly farm and crafts market, people do pretty well marketing and selling their product their. Most of their stuff is nick-nack, cutting boards and turned stuff. They do well from what they say. 
Most of their product is basic and not all that well made. Arts & Crafts markets are good places to get your name out there.

I make tables, bookcases, and cutting boards. 
End tables, entertainment centers, shadow boxes, these are all good sellers and can be money makers.

Make a few things then you can also use CL, Etsy, etc, to sell your stuff.


----------

