# Some cabinet (FF, rail/stile door, drawer) sizing Q's



## AnthonyC (Jun 11, 2010)

In the design process of a kitchen remodel.

We have a general layout, style, and color scheme we would like.

Going with 1/4" bead, inset door and drawer front, white/glazed (painted) for the cabinet design.

Rail and stile on the cab doors will be a stepped bead pattern (matching set from Infinity).

A couple of the design decisions we have been agonizing over:

Drawer height. 5", 6"? Right now I have them at 5 1/2" and I think it looks okay. Tough to tell, though.

Rail / Stile size. Going with a flat panel and the 2" rail/stile look very skinny on the larger doors. Any advice on this? Do you guys make the frame members much larger with flat panels?

Going with 1.5" face frame members, and on the advice on another thread here, made the bottom rail 3/8" taller than the mid rail or top. Seems to balance out the design in Sketchup. My question here is, with a 4" kick space (floor to bottom of frame rail), that puts the bottom shelf 6 5/16" off the floor. Is that too high? Should I make the toe kick less to compensate?

Thanks. I will post some pics of the sketchup plans later.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Look forward to photos


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## PurpLev (May 30, 2008)

As for the toe kick - I don't think you can reduce it, as it's designed by functionality more than visual. from what I'm getting you're planing on having the bottom shelf at the level of the top of the bottom rail? why not leave it on top of the toe kick, and have the rail act as a lip to it? the only downside is that you can't slide anything out, but will have to pick it up and out - but you'll gain those extra 2" for storage. may or may not work for you.

anything else goes to visual and preference, make the drawers the size that looks and works best for YOU - that's what custom work is all about. if you tall items that won't fit in a 5" drawer - make them 6" , but if those look too tall for you - make them 5" . same for the rail/stile components.

make it all work for YOU since this is why you're building it to begin with isnt it?


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## AnthonyC (Jun 11, 2010)

let me try some pics here. Front and Iso view of my outside wall. Just the base cabinets. Kick space is 4" in that and the counter will be a full 1.5". The cutout is for an apron sink.

All thoughts welcome. I'll add more pics as I get them done.


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## PurpLev (May 30, 2008)

rail stile for panel doors look ok to me not too thin.

however. it looks like these are all 'stand alone' cabinets put next to one another? to me all the internal face frame stiles look a bit too wide since they are all doubled up.


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## AnthonyC (Jun 11, 2010)

Yeah, I've been trying to find a way around that. The wide door next to the sink is the dishwasher fake panel (whole faceframe, door, and drawer front will be one piece).

That's one reason we went with the 4 drawers inbetween, so that it won't look too odd with door spacing.


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## huff (May 28, 2009)

Anthony, Did I understand you correctly? You plan on doing a beaded faceframe, but only on the door openings? Are you doing the same for the drawer openings?

As far as the drawer height goes, since you are doing a slab type drawer front, then any height will work fine. 
If you were doing a stile,rail and flat panels on the drawer fronts like the doors, then you would need at least 6" in height. I noticed on your drawing that you have a rail between the top and 2nd drawer, but no rails between the others. Did you plan it that way? Usually on faceframe cabinets, there is a rail between each opening.

I usually do a 2 1/4" stile and rail for doors, but it's more for allowing room for 35mm hinges…..and if you feel the stiles are too wide where the cabinets butt up to one another, you can reduce each of those stiles by 1/4" each. You'd be surprised how much that can change the overall look. Going from 3" where the two stiles butt together to 2 1/2" doesn't sound like much, but that 1/2" can make a difference. The width of your stiles are going to be more noticable since you are doing a inset door and drawer.


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## AnthonyC (Jun 11, 2010)

We're still not sure what we're going to do with the two small drawer sets. The one on the left is a corner unit and the other one is the dead space between the dishwasher and the end cabinet. We may make the end cabinet larger and forego that altogether.

I plan on beading every opening in the face frame. I threw together those 4 drawer sets this afternoon and hadn't thought much of that.

And yeah, I have been noticing how much of a difference 1/4" makes. I widened the bottom rail by 1/2" and all the dimensions in the door by 1/4" to get to what you see up there. It didn't look like much when I did it, but the effect was noticable. I also played around with 3/8" vs 1/4" beading and that made a huge difference.

The dishwasher is driving most of this. I would halve the stiles so that they all looked uniform when butted together. But I am worried that this would leave too little support on the edges of the D/W frame. Hmm, more to think about.

Thanks for all the help, guys.


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## CampD (Nov 8, 2008)

For full inset doors I do 1 1/2" FF sides and bottom and 2" for top and 2" rail/styles. I've found it looks the best. I'd do 2 drawers instead of 3 on the lower with a rail in between. With inset doors I almost never put a style between the doors (ever try to fit under or work on the sink?). I put the dado at 5 1/2" and with a 1 1/2" FF leaves 4" kick space.


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

I know you stated you have a design,but have you considered overlap doors? Just a thought.
CampD, if you do overlaps what is your top rail size?


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## AnthonyC (Jun 11, 2010)

We like inset doors and since I'm building them myself, we think it will add a touch of distinction that we couldn't get with buying them. The house is a colonial revival and we're going with a French country / colonial hybrid style. So we are trying to go with simple lines. Plus our current (ugly) cabinets are overlay style and we are little biased against them 

An idea I'm going to try in sketchup tomorrow is to make two or three fake drawers (no frame rails inbetween) on the D/W. Then I can halve the vertical frames between the cabinets, which will also make those small drawers wider and even out the spacing. Still need ideas for the left corner cab.

It's nice to have Sketchup for stuff like this. I would hate to trial and error this with real wood.


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## CampD (Nov 8, 2008)

Howie,
When I do overlap doors, FF is 2" & rail/style 2 1/2". The extra 1/2" overlaps sp the overall effect is the same.
Top rail of face frame is still 2". I do a bigger top rail to give extra room for any type of countertop, you never know down the road what the owner will change (yrs of experience doing kitchen remodels) I've seen heavy counters put in and the rail will almost disaiper.


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

Anthony: you are correct in your choice for the french/colonial styling. Keep us updated, it sure looks like and interesting project.

CampD: thanks


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## AnthonyC (Jun 11, 2010)

Okay, updated design.

Made it into two cabinets with the fake dishwasher panel.

I'm thinking of making the end cabinet a single drawer for a recycling or trash (look like a narrow door instead of three drawers). I may also make the dishwasher look like it has two fake doors instead of three drawers.

But I do like the extra space and spacing of the "condensed" version.


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## rhett (May 11, 2008)

I would bring the 4 drawer stacks in to both sides of the farm sink. This would give you more symmetry in the run of cabinetry. There is no set rule stating that the DW has to be directly next to the sink. Pumps on present day DW's are very stout and can push allot of water.

I did a kitchen a few years ago where we put the DW on an entirely different wall.


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## AnthonyC (Jun 11, 2010)

Okay, some design rework. The wife and I are liking this one a lot better.



















We decided to do a blind corner cabinet (not shown) on the east elevation, so the drawers by the sink would fit in better. We decided not to do a built-in hutch style end cabinet, so no need for the asymmetry on the right cabinet. I could just make a nice centered double cabinet.

Please let me know if you see any traps or gotchas. I'll try to do the east wall tonight and show the whole line of cabs.

Thanks again for all the input!


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## GrandpaE (Jun 26, 2010)

Just a thought. A few years ago I remodeled our kitchen. I bagged the doors and made drawers in all the lower cabinets. My wife and I agree it was the best deciision we made on the lower cabinets. They are much easier to get items out of instead of trying to find something in the back. I used full extension hidden Blum slides.
It is better than installing drawers inside of cabinets with doors.
Good luck on your project. You will really enjoy the new kitchen.


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## AnthonyC (Jun 11, 2010)

We looked into that, but the wife thought that was too much on the lowers. The compromise is that almost every lower cabinet will have a pull out tray of some sort, but will still have a door.

Finished the lower cabs in Sketchup. The wife really likes this design the best so far. Still deciding what to do under the stove. I like the open air shelf for heavy pots like the dutch oven and stock pot. The vent hood surround will match the curve.

Thanks again for all the advice, guys.


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## rhett (May 11, 2008)

The idea of open shelves sounds nice but you might be better served with two deep drawers. I wouldn't want to stoop down and reach in the back of a base cabinet for my heavy dutch oven if I could step to the side and directly lift it up for use.

As clean as the design is, I think seeing the clutter of pots and pans will be distracting. These are just my opinions. It would also look nice bumped out with legs to the floor like the two ends.


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## AnthonyC (Jun 11, 2010)

Yeah, I know what you mean. Also, the piping and shutoff valve are in there, so I would need a false back that popped out easily.

There is an island going in the middle, which is why we weren't considering a bump-out. We're trying to maximize two-person move and cook space and the "lanes" for travel to and from the family room, dining room, and entry foyer (to the upstairs and living room) sort of force the overall design like that. And I guess if the island is blocking the view of the those open shelves, whatever is more ergonomic (drawers) probably makes more sense.

I do love the look of bump-outs for stoves, though. I am considering furniture feet for the corners to finish the look. I may add some extra to the stove cabinet to make it stand out more.

Right now, I'm working on the range hood (mantle style with spice rack). It's going slow because it's the focal point of the room and I'm agonizing every decision.


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