# Is CNC taking the craft and fun out of woodworking?



## bkseitz

I don't have a CNC machine for woodworking, but have used such in heavy industry applications-previous life I consulted to major corporations on CAD/CAM. The question I pose does CNC take the craft and fun out of woodworking or is it yet another tool in a woodworkers box?

I know that which each technology advance many people wonder if woodworking was to go the way of other industries major automation where people are almost superfluous or as supposed is CNC just another tool advance like the router, electric drill, planner-jointer, etc.

Would love to hear opinions both for/against


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## Dabcan

For me it puts the fun back into woodworking. Some of the pieces I make need repetitive cut parts. It's no great skill of mine to cut hundreds of these little pieces, and while I can cut them for less money than I can pay a CNC to do it, I'd much rather be working on more creative endeavours than making the same thing over and over again. I still do the assembling, and the designing is all mine as well, but personally I'm happy to have the parts done by someone (or something?) else.


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## CharlesA

i think you might want to distinguish between production woodworkers and hobby woodworkers (even though you'll still end up with disagreement). If someone like Dabcan wants to use a CNC that way, fine. For someone like me, it seems like a big expense that would allow me to produce wood pieces without woodworking, so to speak. No incentive.


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## bkseitz

@CharlesA, I made no distinction between Production or Hobbyist as I know some people that do production work take pride is using only Hand Tools (i.e., they won't even use a table saw). I make no judgements, just curious as to opinions out there. -this is not a formal study or something that will go beyond this LJ forum


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## AZWoody

I have thought about getting one, for carving panels, etc. Making interesting designs to integrate into my woodworking.

I don't think it would take away from the craft as it's something I just don't have the skill to do anyways. I also don't have the time to do some of the panel carvings like I have seen done on here.

To me, it's just another tool in the kit to help me make what I want.


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## KevinL

I do the CNC thing all day long at work. I'm an Instructor that teaches Tool & Die. I have full access to metal working CNC machinery and we also have a CNC router in the building trades program that I sometimes have done some CAD & programming on.

That being said at night I use my non CNC tools. That's my unwind time. Do my wood projects look as good as my metal things…...nope but I'm not trying to hold things in machinist tenths or millionths either.

That being said, I have used some of the machinery to make tools that I have used on my traditional woodworking tools. It may be a fixture or a gage. Notice I didn't say jig. Jigs are never bolted down, but are used to guide a drill, tap, reamer…...so on.


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## ssnvet

Will I guess that would depend on whether you think playing with a CNC is fun or not.

For me it is….

But for a lot of people it isn't… either because they're not into CAD/CAM and computers, or because they do it all day long at work and don't want to bring it into their hobby time.

I program for CNCs at work, but infreqently, so I still enjoy it.

Using a 4th axis machine to turn fancy Corinthian columns is on my bucket list.


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## JeffP

I think we can take a look at history for the answer to this one…

I know there are a good number of LJ who are "hand tool only"...but are there any of you here who are "seasoned" enough to have been around when power tools first made the scene in woodworking? I rather doubt it. That choice, between all hand tools vs. hybrid vs. "I only use a chisel for opening new cans of wipe-on poly"... has been made by pretty much all of us. In fact, I would bet a lot of you have changed your mind about it at least once and maybe several times along the way.

My only point here is that the introduction of power tools into this realm DID NOT spell the end of it as either a hobby or a master-craftsman profession.

I think CNC is a very similar "upheaval" in the space. I think over time many of us will try our hand at it, and either decide we don't like it, decide it can be just another arrow in our quiver, or decide it provides the one true path we've been searching for to realize some aspect of our creativity.

I rather think 10 years from now a CNC will be about as common as a tablesaw in the average wood shop. For some it will be "over there in the corner next to the scroll saw and the biscuit jointer I never use", and for others it will be a centerpiece they can't do without (just like a tablesaw is today).


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## bonesbr549

Funny timing for the topic. I'm getting ready to pull the trigger on one early next year. I see it as just another tool. It takes skill to put it to proper use, and that is a art unto itself. This sounds like the old argument about screws in furniture.


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## Gixxerjoe04

I had the shapeoko 2 hobby cnc, like the idea and what I thought I could do with it but the software side of it was difficult and I didn't want to spend money on expensive software that probably would have been easier to learn on maybe. So it sat and collected dust until I sold it recently. I do like the idea of it in some aspects though. If i had a nice one and actually knew how to use it, could batch out small stuff like Christmas ornaments like in the shapes of states and probably sell them pretty easily, a lot easier than doing them by hand to make them cheaper to sell. People always send me pics of stuff I should make, then I realize it's stuff that is batched out on a cnc or something that's been laser engraved onto a piece of wood. Usually tell them wish I could, but the items are always for sale by a company that can sell them cheap because of those tools and being able to mass produce. Now if cnc machine were able to produce tables and chairs or other really nice stuff people make on here, then that would be cheating haha.


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## Ger21

A CNC can be just another tool. And often not the best tool for the job.

Or it can be a hobby all by itself. Small hobby machines like a Shapeoko tend to lean this way, as they don't have the capacity to really augment a woodworking shop, unless your shop is dedicated to making small items.



> I rather think 10 years from now a CNC will be about as common as a tablesaw in the average wood shop.


I've already been using a CNC router for 20 years. They're not new, they're just becoming more affordable.

As for taking the "craft" out of woodworking? Actually, it can add a little more. It's another skill set that the user needs to master to really take advantage of.

Too many people look at a CNC as a machine that spits out whatever you want with the push of a button. In a lot of cases, that couldn't be further from the truth.


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## wormil

How do you do production woodworking with hand tools only in this day and age? I mean it might technically be "production" but come on.


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## rwe2156

Craft - yes. Fun - absolutely not.

Probably a necessity for a production shop. No one expects a label "hand crafted". If a hobbyist is using one because he doesn't want to spend the time doing the work by hand, then I think that's sad because the skills will become rusty and decline.

He must have difficulty looking at a piece and having the sense of reward in personal craftsmanship of the piece. It doesn't matter if it's all hand tools or machine. At least a human is controlling the process.

I think the answer becomes much more obvious with carving. You simply cannot say "I made that" when all the human error is eliminated because a machine made the cuts. Anybody with a CNC machine can make that carving, but only a few can do it with human skills. When I see videos of guys proudly showing a carving "they" did with a CNC machine, I shake my head.

To each his own. Personally I would much rather learn to carve by hand than program a computer!

When the admirer says, "Wow, you really made that?" what can your honest answer be?


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## WoodNSawdust

One day I hope to grow my woodworking to be enough of a business that it will be self supporting. What I sell will buy the next tool(s) on my list plus pay for projects I make for myself or as gifts. To this end a CNC (or laser or carver) is just a power tool like any other. I can't see myself splitting logs, hand planning surfaces flat, using a hand saw to resaw to thickness, etc. Now if someone wanted to pay enough then I might reconsider but my experience is that customers tend to be cheap.

The bigger question would be can a project that has been touched by a CNC (laser, carver) be called hand made?


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## todd1962

My take on this. It is a tool…know when it makes sense to use it and when it does not. For example, my Yahtzee project I posted was milled with my CNC. I don't think I would have enjoyed doing it without my CNC.

I look at it this way. I know some very talented carvers. I am not one of them, however they are not engineers and I am. I used my engineering skills to build and program my CNC. That combined with my woodworking skills has been very fulfilling for me. I can't relief carve a deer by hand but I can do it with the CNC machine I built. To me that is very cool…


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## greg48

Just another tool in my book. I probably will never invest in one as my monies will go to those tools that increase the time and enjoyment of working the wood. So, if I lay my hands upon something I created, how can it not be "hand made"?


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## todd1962

I will also say that I'm not offended if someone else has another opinion. This is a hobby for me and I am having fun. That is what counts for me. I sell a few items to support my hobby and my clients know what is done with my CNC. I don't label anything "handcrafted" unless I actually handcraft it.


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## Ger21

> I think the answer becomes much more obvious with carving. You simply cannot say "I made that" when all the human error is eliminated because a machine made the cuts. Anybody with a CNC machine can make that carving, but only a few can do it with human skills. When I see videos of guys proudly showing a carving "they" did with a CNC machine, I shake my head.


You're treating all carvings the same which is a disservice to some.
Your perception comes form the fact that at least 95% (imo) of the CNC carving that you see is done using purchased or "Stock" 3D models. Very few cnc hobbyists have the skill to create truly unique work, which gives non cnc users the idea that CNC is just pushing a button.



> He must have difficulty looking at a piece and having the sense of reward in personal craftsmanship of the piece. It doesn t matter if it s all hand tools or machine. At least a human is controlling the process.


As I mentioned above, for some CNC users a human IS controlling the process, from start to finish.
In addition to design and computer work, there's a lot more involved with CNC than placing a board on it and pushing a button. 
I've been doing it everyday for 20 years, and like any other woodworking, with CNC you're always learning. Whether it's learnign out to do things, easier, faster, or just better, it's not an automatic process.


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## JAAune

It doesn't take the fun away. Anything my CNC can do I can do by hand if desired. However, it's much more fun to program the CNC, let it go to work and make money for me while I work on something else and make more money.

What do you get if there's a CNC operating, a laser engraver cutting and a highly-skilled furniture-maker working at the same time at full shop rate? I can't do that often but when it happens, I've got a large chunk of the overhead paid off in a single day of work. Woodworking is a lot more fun when you're not doing overtime just to pay the bills.


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## HokieKen

CNC is a tool like any other. It also requires hard-earned skill to be able to realize the potential of it, like any other tool. CNC machines, whether they be for metal work, wood work or any other type of work, are not sentient beings. They have no ideas nor any vision for what they wish to produce. The user must provide those things. The user must learn how to translate those things into finished product using the CNC as well. It's not as simple as load the material and push go. You have to create (or "borrow") the 3D model, translate that into a language the CNC can use. You also have to understand the material your working, the tooling being used, feed rates, spindle speeds, surface cutting rates, chip removal, work holding and numerous other things that are just part of the process.

Is carving with a CNC the same as carving by hand? Nope. Carving by hand requires a special kind of skill set and, at least IMHO, a God-given aptitude and talent than most people, myself included, simply do not posses. Carving via CNC requires an entirely different skill set. A set that anyone can acquire if they wish and are willing to learn it. It is a fantastic tool that opens up new possibilities for those who wish to use it. That being said, it is just that… a tool. And like any other tool, power or hand, it can only do what the user can direct it to do.


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## kenthemadcarpenter

I don't own one and never used one. In some aspects I think it takes away from the craft, but in another sense it could add to a persons arsenal off tools. I think for the most part if you can afford one and the foot space for it, and you plan on producing a lot different parts on a large scale or you are making a lot personalized signs you would be better off with a cnc. if you are just a hobbyist and you don't do a lot then it is not worth it.


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## rwe2156

> I can t relief carve a deer by hand but I can do it with the CNC machine I built. To me that is very cool…
> 
> - Todd


This is a contradictory statement.


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## rwe2156

> You re treating all carvings the same which is a disservice to some.
> Your perception comes form the fact that at least 95% (imo) of the CNC carving that you see is done using purchased or "Stock" 3D models. Very few cnc hobbyists have the skill to create truly unique work, which gives non cnc users the idea that CNC is just pushing a button.


No doubt design is part of craftsmanship, but until a carving tool is in the persons hand nothing will be created.
With CNC the machine is doing the physical work of the artist, not the human.
Sorry, but I believe my point remains valid.



> As I mentioned above, for some CNC users a human IS controlling the process, from start to finish.
> In addition to design and computer work, there s a lot more involved with CNC than placing a board on it and pushing a button.


How clearer can it be: the machine is doing the work, not the human!

You can say you designed it but you simply cannot say "I carved it" and be truthful about it.


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## rwe2156

> Is carving with a CNC the same as carving by hand? Nope. Carving by hand requires a special kind of skill set and, at least IMHO, a God-given aptitude and talent than most people, myself included, simply do not posses. Carving via CNC requires an entirely different skill set. A set that anyone can acquire if they wish and are willing to learn it. It is a fantastic tool that opens up new possibilities for those who wish to use it. That being said, it is just that… a tool. And like any other tool, power or hand, it can only do what the user can direct it to do.
> - HokieKen


Ken don't sell yourself short. If you're skilled enough to use a chisel you can carve!

If you ever do start carving I believe you'll view the CNC differently when guys say they carved something when they really didn't.


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## TopamaxSurvivor

It depends if the feel of wood or the keyboard is most desirable. Not much different than the hand cut or jig cut dovetails debate ;-)


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## Texcaster

> Is carving with a CNC the same as carving by hand? Nope. Carving by hand requires a special kind of skill set and, at least IMHO, a God-given aptitude and talent than most people, myself included, simply do not posses. Carving via CNC requires an entirely different skill set. A set that anyone can acquire if they wish and are willing to learn it. It is a fantastic tool that opens up new possibilities for those who wish to use it. That being said, it is just that… a tool. And like any other tool, power or hand, it can only do what the user can direct it to do.
> - HokieKen
> Ken don t sell yourself short. If you re skilled enough to use a chisel you can carve!
> 
> If you ever do start carving I believe you ll view the CNC differently when guys say they carved something when they really didn t.
> 
> - rwe2156


double post


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## Texcaster

> Is carving with a CNC the same as carving by hand? Nope. Carving by hand requires a special kind of skill set and, at least IMHO, a God-given aptitude and talent than most people, myself included, simply do not posses. Carving via CNC requires an entirely different skill set. A set that anyone can acquire if they wish and are willing to learn it. It is a fantastic tool that opens up new possibilities for those who wish to use it. That being said, it is just that… a tool. And like any other tool, power or hand, it can only do what the user can direct it to do.
> - HokieKen
> Ken don t sell yourself short. If you re skilled enough to use a chisel you can carve!
> 
> If you ever do start carving I believe you ll view the CNC differently when guys say they carved something when they really didn t.
> 
> - rwe2156


These days I always relate CNC carving to guitars, flat top and carved top. The " factory " versions are right off the machine, built to a mean. In the "custom shop" treatment of these same CNC instruments, the tops are "voiced " by hand. Tap, listen, carve, tap, listen carve. Handmade in my book.

I directed a mate building a carved top mandolin awhile ago and have no problems saying " I build this mando." even though he did most of the work.


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## Ger21

> No doubt design is part of craftsmanship, but until a carving tool is in the persons hand nothing will be created.
> With CNC the machine is doing the physical work of the artist, not the human.
> Sorry, but I believe my point remains valid.


No, it's not valid at all. The person needs to create the art before the machine can carve it.

What you're talking about is buying a carving file and loading it into the machine.
What I'm talking about is creating that carving file from scratch. It takes a very similar set of skills to create models in a computer as it does to hand carve them. It's just a different medium.


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## todd1962

> I can t relief carve a deer by hand but I can do it with the CNC machine I built. To me that is very cool…
> 
> - Todd
> This is a contradictory statement.
> 
> - rwe2156


Why is that a contradictory statement? Let me rephrase if it will make you happy…I think it is cool the machine *I* built can carve something. Is that OK for you?


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## ste6168

> I can t relief carve a deer by hand but I can do it with the CNC machine I built. To me that is very cool…
> 
> - Todd
> This is a contradictory statement.
> 
> - rwe2156
> 
> Why is that a contradictory statement? Let me rephrase if it will make you happy…I think it is cool the machine *I* built can carve something. Is that OK for you?
> 
> - Todd


So, let me help. Re-read your original statement…

I cant relief carve a deer, but 
I can do it with the CNC machine, I built.

So can you, or can't you?

The proper sentence, and what I know (the other guy was just being a smart-a**) you were trying to say, would have been something like: I cannot relief carve a deer by hand, however, I am able to program a CNC machine to do the carving.


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## wormil

nm


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## HermitStudio

No. A silly question really - wholly subjective. Using any tool well is an acquired skill. What do I care if some folk say it does or doesn't? I know the realities of it.

Your craft is your craft. Develop it as it suits you and allow others the same freedom.


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## oldnovice

I have a CNC because my physical limitations of rheumatoid arthritis do not allow me to hold my once favorite tool, the router! It is a challenge for me to even hold my Bosch Colt for any length of time without paying the pice later.

The CNC allows me to enjoy router work again and, opened a whole new area of enjoyment on the PC.


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## rwe2156

> No doubt design is part of craftsmanship, but until a carving tool is in the persons hand nothing will be created.
> With CNC the machine is doing the physical work of the artist, not the human.
> Sorry, but I believe my point remains valid.
> 
> No, it s not valid at all. The person needs to create the art before the machine can carve it.
> 
> What you re talking about is buying a carving file and loading it into the machine.
> What I m talking about is creating that carving file from scratch. It takes a very similar set of skills to create models in a computer as it does to hand carve them. It s just a different medium.
> 
> - Ger21


Either you didn't read my post or I'm a poor communicator.

Did I not say design is part of craftsmanship?

What I'm talking about is putting the tool in a machine and watching it create instead of the human.

You can say you designed it and set up the machine. 
Its not different than than if you drew a design and handed it to me to carve it.

You didn't carve it a machine did. 
No doubt its fun (I've watched enough of them), but it's also a substitute for the human creative process.


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## Ger21

> Either you didn t read my post or I m a poor communicator.
> 
> Did I not say design is part of craftsmanship?
> 
> What I m talking about is putting the tool in a machine and watching it create instead of the human.


No, I don't think that you understand the process. The human still does the creating before the machine does the cutting.
It can take just as much time and skill to create in the computer as it does to hand carve.


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## rwe2156

> It can take just as much time and skill to create in the computer as it does to hand carve.
> - Ger21


I don't disagree with this!!

My point all along is craftsmanship entails design as well as the physical creation of the object.

What I disagree with is a person being truthful when saying "I carved this".


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## rwe2156

> It can take just as much time and skill to create in the computer as it does to hand carve.
> - Ger21


I don t disagree with this!! 
How many times do you have to make my point by saying the machine did the carving?

Sorry for the duplicate post something happened when I tried to edit.
Human error ;-)


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## oldnovice

A CNC, and laser engravers, in a woodworkers shop will be as commonplace as a table saw in the near future because many wood workers are tool junkies and always are willing to try something new!

The 3D printers and wood resin "ink" will follow the invasion!


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## joey502

This is completely from a hobby perspective because I know less than nothing about doing this for money.

I think anything that gets people making things from wood is a positive for the craft. If you are a woodworker and decide a CNC is for you, cool. If someone with no prior woodworking experience decides a CNC is their way to produce parts for the chair they envision, cool cool. Either way people are out there turning ideas into something real. I think the worst thing that could happen to woodworking or any other "making" hobby is that people stop doing it.

As for the fun of woodworking. I think that question has as many answers as there are people to answer, probably equal to the amount of reasons people find woodworking enjoyable. It drives my wife nuts but I work on whatever seems fun that day. If there is a table 90% complete and I decide to move on to another project then so be it. Regardless of the tools you choose to use this craft should be enjoyed by all.

This thought could change with time but I do not see the use of a CNC for myself. I read everyone's post and then thought of the uses for a CNC under my control, there just were not any, at this point in my life.


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## TheFridge

To original question: no


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## bkseitz

Thank you all who have voiced their opinions. I posted the original question " The question I pose does CNC take the craft and fun out of woodworking or is it yet another tool in a woodworkers box?" not to be divisive, but to get as feeling for what people within the community felt about the advent of automation within the woodworking community.

If you would, those that continue the discussion, please refrain from making this a "taste great, less filling" debate. The only correct answer is what is right for you, yourself and where you are right now. I had hoped I had framed the original question to avoid such divisiveness. For myself, I seem to have a dual personality on the topic:

I had originally gotten into woodworking to support my wife's Real Estate projects. In prior lives I worked in Architecture, Engineering and Manufacturing roles where I was asked to implement CAD/CAM systems in large corporations during the 60s-80s. I perform that role as an advisor at conferences now. As such I've seen how automation DNC, CNC, CAD, CAE, etc. has changed the industrial world.

During my early years I marveled at Machinists that could cut perfect screws on a manual lath, as the years rolled on those skills were replaced by people knowing how to program the NC machines using APT and still further using CAD/CAM to generate the APT programs. -With each iteration people that did production work moved father away from working the actual materials. Composites and now 3D printing moves one still further. For several of the real older-timers ( WWII+ ) I hear mixed opinions also, some enjoyed the development of the precision of their skills, others were glad some of the tedium was taken out of the work, still other have said they enjoy the freedom and new possibilities these new tools enabled.

As mentioned I started woodworking with a production mindset. I needed to get the job done adequately as quickly as possible as this was not my day job ;-) However, as I continue to build out my shop I find building tools, jigs, and the shop itself becoming a fun activity. Do I have a CNC: no I am I likely to have one: if the prices come down to something I feel comfortable spending: yes

My current two projects are on hold while I am on the mend-went through surgery the previous month-which is why I've been so active of late on LJ. One is building/assembling a router table. It clearly steps up my capabilities from using chisels and craving knives. I can more accurately cut out materials using such than hand tools. Can I carve out an eagle on a board-no, but I couldn't do that before using a hammer and chisel. The second project is building a dust collection system for the shop. Here again I'm finding an interest in building my own. Would I buy a ClearVu? If I had that type of cash most likely and if the system I'm building doesn't work out I most likely will upgrade to that anyway.

That said, in May I started focusing on how to sharpen chisels and planes with the goal to eventually build up skills using both. Several years ago I build my own workbench out of 4×4s, MDF, and some nice vice hardware. I had discovered though the type of woodworking I was doing (Hybrid and Finished Carpentry) did not lend itself to an old time workbench, so I build an assembly table. Now however, I'm planning on doing some hobby project that would likely take me into that direction. Thus I'm looking forward to developing those type of skills without abandoning the other skills I developed.

Again that you all for voicing you opinions on how you see automation in woodworking. Looking forward to hearing more and seeing the results of your craftsmanship in whichever vehicle you choose to express it in.


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## mrceeky

The question I pose does CNC take the craft and fun out of woodworking or is it yet another tool in a woodworkers box? I say no, not because I own a cnc machine, but because it does take skill to another level when making that image or design come to life through programming that design into a file to transfer to a piece of material right before your eyes!! It's amazing the detail work one can accomplish!!


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## 000

I have no issues with people using CNC's. I don't think it takes the craft out of woodworking, It's just another "type" of woodworking. When I see a neat carving done with a CNC, I think that's awesome, but then the value of awesome decreases a little knowing it was produced with a CNC. Kind of like a painting printed from a computer compared to one that's hand painted. I place more value (not money) on the one hand painted, but the print still looks nice. That said, I would get a CNC in a heartbeat if I needed one, or could afford one.


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## SawSucker

> I think the worst thing that could happen to woodworking or any other "making" hobby is that people stop doing it.
> - joey502


In my opinion those days have probably already started, and will continue to only get worse.


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## Ger21

Sorry for steering your thread off topic.


> During my early years I marveled at Machinists that could cut perfect screws on a manual lath, as the years rolled on those skills were replaced by people knowing how to program the NC machines using APT and still further using CAD/CAM to generate the APT programs. -With each iteration people that did production work moved father away from working the actual materials. Composites and now 3D printing moves one still further. For several of the real older-timers ( WWII+ ) I hear mixed opinions also, some enjoyed the development of the precision of their skills, others were glad some of the tedium was taken out of the work, still other have said they enjoy the freedom and new possibilities these new tools enabled.


I really don't think that a CNC router takes you all that far away from working with wood. Most projects still require a lot of skills and techniques that are required in addition to any CNC work. You use a CNC to do repetitive, boring work. Or work that you don't have the tools or skill to perform otherwise.
And taking full advantage of a CNC requires adding more skills to your skillset, which for many, adds to their enjoyment.

To answer the question, no, it doesn't. If it did, then people wouldn't be using CNC.


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## Pezking7p

CNC broke into my shop and broke all my hand planes.


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## BobAnderton

I think the CNC/Craftsmanship question has an analogy in the older technology of duplicator lathes. If someone hand turns staircase spindles I think of that as involving more craftsmanship than if they were turned out by the thousands on a duplicator lathe and sold at Home Depot. The hand turned spindles have more craftsmanship value to me than the mass produced items and that same perceived value difference exists when I look at a hand carved item vs a CNC produced item.

It's why we don't generally value injection molded plastic items the way we would a hand made item. It's not that they are made of plastic that cheapens them. Plastic is a fine material. What cheapens them is that they are mass produced by a highly regulated process with no craftsmanship involved in making the individual item.


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## rwe2156

Gerry hit on something. Perhaps there is a difference between "woodworking"and "working with wood"? 
No doubt there are artists/craftsman on both sides of the equation.

"Wood machinist" might be a more accurate description of what we will become if totally reliant on technology and machines.

I am not "anti-CNC". It looks like a lot of fun. You will get lots of compliments but just be honest and tell people you didn't carve it, the machine did.


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## oldnovice

> I am not "anti-CNC". It looks like a lot of fun. You will get lots of compliments but just be honest and tell people you didn t carve it, the machine did.
> 
> - rwe2156


Yes, but you can still take the credit for the design, if it truly is your design.


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## TopamaxSurvivor

> Gerry hit on something. Perhaps there is a difference between "woodworking"and "working with wood"?
> No doubt there are artists/craftsman on both sides of the equation.
> 
> "Wood machinist" might be a more accurate description of what we will become if totally reliant on technology and machines.
> 
> I am not "anti-CNC". It looks like a lot of fun. You will get lots of compliments but just be honest and tell people you didn t carve it, the machine did.
> 
> - rwe2156


That sums it up nicely. Sort of like the difference between a tool and die maker and a machinist.


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## todd1962

Bah. Call me what you want. I'm having fun and it's a hobby! Lol. As long as you don't claim something is hand-carved when it isn't. People I make stuff for know exactly how I did it because it is fun talking about it.


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## Birdhouse

I am a retired carpenter and I own a cnc. I wasn't going to buy one because I can do it by hand or with a bandsaw. I build birdhouses Birdhouses by Tyler. Then I would spend hours building one and have to sell it for nothing to sell them. There was a guy two booths down used only hand tools and did a great job and no one cared they just want the price. I am a one man show and my cnc Betsy has made me a two man show now. I can make them now at a price where I can sell them. If you guys are working by the hour then keep hand tooling it but if you want to make some money to help with social security and hav just as much fun then buy a cnc. I don't get paid by the hour I get paid for the piece. I love doing it both ways. The guy two booths down doesn't sell at the markets he just does projects to give away to family members. Too bad what a great guy.


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## bkseitz

@Terry, 
this seems to be a little off track. If fun for you is revenue then cnc makes sense. The question I posed was about fun and craft. If you're doing woodworking for revenue we should discuss in another thread - I'd be fine with that - I help business become more profitable for work


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## oldnovice

+1 *Todd*!
•••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Hobby and professional can both utilize a CNC but for various different reasons; some that make sense and others that make cents!


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## HermitStudio

One man's craft is another man's chatchka.
Appreciate the effort, the learning, the imagination and the creativity.

Asking the question causes the divisiveness, as it's a purely subjective measure.


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## bkseitz

@Ted, "Asking the question causes the divisiveness, as it's a purely subjective measure" -yes it can be divisive, but I hope to hear others opinions. I'm interested in that subjective aspect: "Would love to hear opinions both for/against" I'm hoping to get an understanding of others viewpoints, what do they see that I don't or visa-versa

Like Art most everyone has an opinion. The problem occurs (divisiveness) when I or others fail to accept others right to an opinion. Or slam them of having one other than mine.

I really like @oldnovice summary in supporting cnc: "Hobby and professional can both utilize a CNC but for various different reasons; some that make sense and others that make cents!" I've also seen some opinions that cnc takes one away from the intimacy of the wood, and therefore the craft. Several of these people have shunned all power tools. I find that interesting too. Is that approach for me? I like having a router and table saw, so its unlikely I'd give these up. But I'm also working on learning how to use a chisel better, though I hardly ever do joinery like mortises ( I'm a big fam of Kreg Pocket Holes )

Currently I'm watching Stumpy Nubs Old Timey Woodworking while the title of the video series is tongue-and-cheek he's serious about retaining old skills in the craft. This from a site that primarily discusses modern tools and techniques.

What I'm trying to say is that asking others opinions is only divisive when people wish to make it so. That has never been the intent of the question I've posed.


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## jeepersparky

I have a cnc in my shop. Unfortunately I don't have the talent to produce the carvings that I can add to my projects that my cnc can do. I admire the hand work talent that other woodworkers have shown on LBJ but I know that using my cnc is more than just plugging it in and turning on a switch. It takes talent to program the cnc and is very overwhelming at first. But the results are a great addition to my woodworking. When I built my daughter's blanket chest I wanted a special design that would set it off. That is what inspired me to get a cnc. I like the results and the happiness I have gotten back from the recepients of my cnc projects, like the marine corp box I made for a friend who son went into the marines.


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## Underdog

My unqualified answer is NO- it's not taking the fun out of woodworking. 
There are technical and design challenges that I enjoy, as well as a creative aspect.
It's made my professional job much more interesting, and in many cases, fun. 
At home, I have a CarveWright, and I'm gearing up to use it in several different projects.
Granted, I've seen some really crappy work done on CNC, and I don't find that fun at all… I'm rather visually picky that way.
But I've also seen some extremely creative stuff done on CNC and it wows even me.


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## oldnovice

It's about time we heard from you *underdog*!


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## Ger21

Since you're talking about hobbyists, Wouldn't it be safe to assume that if CNC was taking the fun out of it, then one would just stop using CNC?


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## bkseitz

@Ger21, I would assume that, but I didn't restrict the question to hobbyists only. There are those that do woodworking for both a living an hobby that get enjoyment out of their work. Some have expressed they used CNC to keep competitive in the market, not out of enjoyment. However, I would not stretch that comment to mean that they think CNC is killing woodworking craft and fun either -just the realities of the marketplace.

From what I've seen on the posts, the majority of these have replied that believe using CNC is just another skill and tool to learn if one wishes. A few wish to bring up the financial aspects (i.e., cost effectiveness and revenue) which I've tried to avoid in this thread as I wanted to see people's opinion regarding the intangible aspects of woodworking for themselves and the impact CNC has on that.

Again thank all for their candor and participation


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## Birdhouse

I haven't used my cnc for about eight days now and I have just been using my radial arm and other power tools and I have more fun with regular tools. But I love my cnc and I don't know much about it,but it helps me when I need it. Sorry I guess I didn't understand the thread. I guess I feel more like a carpenter when I do it myself.


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## HermitStudio

> @Ted, "Asking the question causes the divisiveness, as it's a purely subjective measure" -yes it can be divisive, but I hope to hear others opinions. I m interested in that subjective aspect: "Would love to hear opinions both for/against" ... I m hoping to get an understanding of others viewpoints, what do they see that I don t or visa-versa"never been the intent of the question I ve posed.
> - bkseitz


That comparison can only be made with objective criteria though. You know there will be those for, against, and undecided. It's rather like asking which is the best sportsing team. You are going to be getting opinions based on a number of measurable factors but a much larger number of emotive ones, in most cases.

You know there are hand tool only, self designed only, XYZ only zealots. What useful information do you hope to extract in asking such a question?

To my mind your question will do much to expose, shall we say bigotry?, around the topic and you will find positions therein to support any opinion you hold or think you should hold, but it will do little to give you actionable information - all while giving people a 'religious' argument to play with.

I stand by my position:
Any skill takes practice, imagination, and creativity to use well. Stop judging. Feel good about your own skills on their merit. Tearing someone else's down to make yours feel/appear bigger is wrong.


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## bkseitz

I'm not judging….by proposing using objective criteria you are headed down that path. I've ask people for their personal opinions. I've not ask anyone to justify why they feel a specific way. Nor have a entertained introducing c/b or ROI. This moves the conversation away from this is my experience or belief to why I'm right and your wrong conversations which denies others the right to their opinion and feelings.

Regarding "actionable" information. What action do you think I'm going to take? I've nothing to sell, no ax to grind or point to prove…just interest in fellow woodworkers' opinions on the topic.


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## oldnovice

*bkseitz*, there have been many forums berating and/or exalting the CNC and/or the users of those and that is why this topic creates the highly defensive and/or offensive responses.

Everyone has strong opinions about CNC woodworking you are going to get strong responses in turn!


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## CharlesA

I'm going to take another crack at this.

Fun? I imagine using a CNC is fun. Give me one tomorrow and I will spend the next few weeks learning how to use it, making things with it, messing around to my hearts content. And it surely takes a skill to use it, although fairly different skills than, let's say, hand cut dovetails. I would probably be better working with a CNC than some sophisticated woodworking skills as I have much more experience with the digital world. If anybody wants to give me one, I'm not turning one down.

On the other hand, imagine that the Star Trek replicator exists. Would it be woodworking to tell the replicator to make a walnut box with maple drawers with bubinga accents? I don't think so. And one can imagine that one might be able to do something like that in the foreseeable (?) future as CNCs and 3d printing technologies continue to advance. All of us make judgments along the way. Hand tools only. Hand and power. Only hand if a power tool can't do it, etc. As for the design-centric nature of CNC work (potentially, very few woodworkers have the design chops to make it as designers only-A Mogensen bookcase is is well-known not because of the sophisticated joinery but because of the design-very few folks can make it that way. Speaking for myself, it is the ability to design and bring to completion that I find impressive in a woodworker.


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## bkseitz

@oldnovice, strong opinion is fine, its putting down others for their' s is not.

@CharlesA, thanks for you perspective on craft. Regarding fun aspect. Is learning a new skill fun for you or only using that new skill once you've mastered it? Myself I enjoy the process of learning a new skill equally fun as using it once I've obtain some level of competence. -yup 3D printing is getting closer to such


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## TopamaxSurvivor

CNC seems to me to be the ultimate crutch. You start with a power tool, then its a jig, then…....... eventually total automation.


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## oldnovice

*bkseitz*, that is what I was trying to convey, but some do take offense!


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## rwe2156

> CNC seems to me to be the ultimate crutch. You start with a power tool, then its a jig, then…....... eventually total automation.
> 
> - TopamaxSurvivor


Its' already happened. It started 150 years ago in the industrial revolution came along factories started producing furniture and the shops and the apprentice system began its decline.

Along came Sears, etc. bringing power machines into the homeowners garage.
Way back when hardly anybody had industrial quality machines in their hobby shops.

The debate is about "Is CNC taking the craft and fun out of ww'ing?"

I've said and will repeat when people compliment the piece take credit for the design if its original, but be honest and admit you didn't carve it, your machine did.

The only reason you don't see robots is they aren't affordable….....yet.


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## Underdog

> I've said and will repeat when people compliment the piece take credit for the design if its original, but be honest and admit you didn't carve it, your machine did.


I've said before, and I'll say it again, if we follow this thinking to its logical conclusion, then anyone who uses a power tool, indeed, ANY tool besides teeth and fingernails, should have to admit they didn't carve it, their tool did.

Used a jointer did you? Piker. You shoulda used your teeth. ;-)

Have FUN! And Have a GREAT DAY!


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## Ger21

> CNC seems to me to be the ultimate crutch.


Statements like this are what lead to the arguments.

I believe that this statement originates from the thousands of hobbiests pressing buttons and turning out the same stock designs that were created by others. Give these same people a custom job to do with their CNC, and chances are that 95% of them can't do it.
These people aren't even doing woodworking, imo. They're hobby is CNC, not woodworking.

A woodworker using a CNC is using it like any other tool.

Compare someone using a mortising machine vs a CNC. What's the difference? Generally, the CNC can cut the mortises faster and more accurate, while you're doing something else.

How many people use expensive dovetail jigs to make dovetails. A lot. I can cut them faster, with more variety on my CNC. How is one different from the other?

For a woodworker, a CNC let's you do things faster, more accurate, and more consistent. Some might say easier, but so what? Isn't that what all machines do? They make jobs easier.
A CNC doesn't design your project, program itself, or assemble and finish your project. It's just another tool in the process.
Most people would agree that they've purchased all of their tools to make woodworking easier. A CNC is no different. Generally, easier is more fun.

When you get into using a CNC in a woodworking business, it's somewhat the same. But using a CNC in a business is almost always a financial decision. The faster and cheaper you can make products, the more money you can make.


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## bonesbr549

Not seen this many arguments since using screws and biscuits. Truth be told the only true craftsman are Beavers! they gnaw it down move it and make lakes! Cheers!


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## bkseitz

@TopamaxSurvivor, 


> CNC seems to me to be the ultimate crutch. You start with a power tool, then its a jig, then…....... eventually total automation.
> 
> - TopamaxSurvivor


 Interesting opinion. A crutch is a tool used to overcome a limitation. I know quite a few people that have crutches and they enjoy the freedom it gives them walking around.

For those that wish to discuss whether CNC is good or bad for woodworking, etc. please take that discussion elsewhere. I started to this discussion to find you opinion as to whether 1) it reduced the fun YOU where having in woodworking 2) it reduced the craft YOU were developing. As this is a self assessment not a judgement of others please restrict answers to your own personal experience about yourself. -thx


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## oldnovice

One more time!

I need a crutch because I can not hold my router the way I used to because of RA,

Anyone who thinks that a CNC makes things easier has never used one! You just don't clamp down the wood, push a button, and you're done. The thought processes before the wood is clamped are much more involved than any other tool and the safety consideration are greater than any other power tool in the shop!


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## todd1962

It is fun for me. Period. This discussion has disintegrated into whether you should take credit for the carving. Look, I use a power planer and I don't claim to have hand-planed my wood. I would never claim I hand-carved something my CNC did. As a matter of fact I openly point out it was done with a CNC. Furthermore, I built the CNC and customized the controller with my own software. That is fun! Call me a woodworker, wood machinist, wood hacker, hobbyist, goober or SOB. I'm having fun and other people are enjoying my work.


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## MrRon

Why would it? As a woodworker, you choose what tools to use. A CNC can be fun all by itself. It takes a different set of skills to use a CNC. If there are multiple identical items to make, a CNC is sure handy. I don't have a CNC yet, but I plan to add one to my arsenal of tools. There are tasks that are suitable for conventional woodworking and others suitable for CNC. I build large scale model trains that require many identical parts and is a perfect candidate for CNC. Make no mistake. CNC requires skill to use and learning that skill is a great addition to your knowledge portfolio. At 81, I am still learning. That is what keeps me young. Once you stop learning, it's time to plan for your burial.


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## TopamaxSurvivor

I did not say crutches are bad, just that they are crutches. Or, production machines. I use jigs and a table saw with a fence ;-) But, if I fish, I use a fly rod, not a spinning reel and rod with bait. Of course, if I do dovetails they will be hand cut; therefore, if I carve, it will be with a knife or chisels.


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## Underdog

People who insist it's not real woodworking take some of the fun out of it… But otherwise I find it to be fun.


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## bkseitz

> *I did not say crutches are bad, just that they are crutches. *Or, production machines. I use jigs and a table saw with a fence ;-) But, if I fish, I use a fly rod, not a spinning reel and rod with bait. Of course, if I do dovetails they will be hand cut; therefore, if I carve, it will be with a knife or chisels.
> 
> - TopamaxSurvivor


Neither did I say crutches are bad. I simply stated crutches are like other tools help overcome limitations. I was specific in not wanting this forum to turn into a good vs. evil argument.

My interest has been more along the individual aspect of the topic. FOR YOU does CNC add or diminish to your craft and fun or does it change it to learning some other aspect of craft (e.g., focusing more on the design and less on the execution?).

*For myself* I can see where some might think It takes away the craft and fun. However, I look at the various tools that have been developed through the ages; all were developed to aid in the creation on what was conceived in someone's head. New materials also fit that bill…who is cutting trees and joining these today to make 4'x8' sheets, etc. I see many awesome pieces of work using furniture grade? plywood. I'm sort of a tool nut of sorts. As such I'm getting a lot of fun learning about and how to use tools effectively (i.e., developing craft):

Yesterday I watched a YouTube video on how to use HVAC crimpers for a dust collection project I'm doing for my shop. I had no idea that the proper way to use the crimpers was to have the smaller number of fingers on the outside. But that's part of a new skill I'm learning to support my small little shop.

Past year I bought two sets of Rockler Signmaking templates. My freehand skills with a router leave a lot to be desired. Those templates along with a smaller router (DeWalt Compact Router) help me improve the results I was after. Do I say "I carved these signs" ? -not really. I typically say I used my router and template to make these signs, but I'm equally proud of such as these are a step in building router skills and possibly using chisels to carve more artistic signs in the distant future. [ That said, bought an opaque projector so I'll be able to transfer designs to the surface of the wood for later carving as I get better with freehand routing ]

*In summary*, for me this forum has help crystalize my thoughts; I don't see CNC as removing craft-unless you want it too-or fun. I see it as it as another tool which can either be training wheels to developing other skills or just another tool which requires learning other skills. As far as the fun aspect. I think I've already answered that assessment above. Learning and applying that learning is fun for me.

Thank You all once again for your contributions.


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## rwe2156

> I've said and will repeat when people compliment the piece take credit for the design if its original, but be honest and admit you didn't carve it, your machine did.
> 
> I ve said before, and I ll say it again, if we follow this thinking to its logical conclusion, then anyone who uses a power tool, indeed, ANY tool besides teeth and fingernails, should have to admit they didn t carve it, their tool did.
> - Underdog


Wrong. A human sitting there watching a machine make a carving is way different.


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## mudflap4869

Since I can no longer handle any tool that vibrates, or hold one in my hand for more than 1 minute, does that mean that I am not allowed to be creative in any other manner? Osteoarthtitis throughout my body due to agent orange and Lymes disease prevents me from using power tools and my hands cramp when attempting to even use a screwdriver. I end up dropping them on the floor then have to wait for someone to come along and pick them up for me. That means that I should just put a pistol to my head and end my meaningless life? Thanks folks for the encouragement you have extended to those of us who have come to the end of a meaningfull life. I could program a cnc to produce gifts for family and friends, but since it would only be my brain working instead of my hands. Well hell why am I even breathing when I am such a liabiliyty to the world?
*WELL* screw all the naysayers! I am going to continue living and enjoying life whether they like it or not. Hey I can even cook better on my electric range than I did when we only had a woodburnng cookstove.


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## Underdog

> Wrong. A human sitting there watching a machine make a carving is way different.


It's really not much different than any other power tool. You have the mistaken notion that it takes no input to make that machine make a carving. Perhaps running a table saw or a jointer is more hands on than the CNC router, but it takes no less skill to get the router to do it's thing.

I still say that if you want to take it to the logical conclusion, that if you want to be a purist, then use only the tools you were born with.

Does using a hand tool take more hand eye coordination than using a stationary tool? Yes. Does using a stationary tool take more hand eye coordination than running a CNC router? Yes. 
Do any of those take less skill to make them do what you want? 
No.

But this is all BESIDE the point.
The real question is whether CNC was taking the fun out of woodworking.
Well I suppose it really depends on the person.

If you're a neanderthal, you may find that you only want hand tools in your tool kit. Good for you. Take joy in it.
If you're a carpenter or a cabinet maker, then you'll probably find you'll want some expensive power tools and stationary tools. Good for you. Get satisfaction out of a job well done.
If you're in this century and like the digital challenges the CNC throws at you, you'll probably want to build your own CNC, and learn the software that will run it. Good for you. Enjoy those challenges.

The whole point of this is to enjoy and take pride in what you do.

So I'd appreciate it if you didn't denigrate what I do as not being real woodworking and go back to your 14th century plane and make some dang shavings, and leave me the hell alone.


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## oldnovice

*+1 mudflap4869*
Everyone has their own reasons and I am in agreement with mudflap4869, nothing is going to stop me from enjoying my hobby whether I use a CNC, plasma cutter, laser engraver, chisle, saw, jackhammer, or any other tool I may employ to feed my passion!


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## RHolcomb

I just bought a CNC machine. An X-Carve 1000mm. I'm still in the process of putting it together. It's a long process when you only have an hour or two every other day to work on it but it will get done eventually. Then it's on to learning the software and making something. It's actually quite fun to put something together completely and have that sense of accomplishment when it's done. Honestly, I feel that any hobby that makes you happy and provides satisfaction regardless of what it is, is worthwhile. For some woodworkers, a CNC machine is a fun tool to have. Some find it a necessity in their work while others would never own one. Whichever camp you're in, be thankful that you have the ability to make things and be proud of whatever it is. Somehow I'm afraid that for every woodworker that has the ability and means, there's someone out there with only a dream of one day being in our position. I was one of those people not that many years ago and there isn't a day that passes that I don't think about those days. It makes me appreciate the work others do, from the simplest project to the very advanced.


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## BArnold

I haven't been active over here in quite a while. One reason is that starting over a year ago I was on the final approach to deciding on a DIY or kit CNC machine. After reviewing many options, I decided on a Shapeoko 2 kit that had some additional capabilities. I ended up building a system with a 60mm gantry and 1500mm long axis with NEMA 23 on all axes.

As to the question being asked in this thread, I view a CNC as just another tool in my shop. Also, at my age (71) it has proved that an old dog can learn some new tricks. For the first several months I used a variety of free software to create items. As I got more and more comfortable with all of the processes, I decided to buy VCarve Desktop to have a more complete software solution. Is my CNC a crutch? No, it's simply another tool in my shop.

Now, I just need to find time to show you folks some of the things I've made on my CNC.


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## bkseitz

@BArnold, looking forward to seeing what you've created. Now the big question, however, from your comment about returning to woodworking after several years I can infer the answer (Does CNC take the fun out of woodworking?) I would assume CNC has made woodworking more enjoyable for you and given you new skills to apply enabling you to do more creative work. [Cool].


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## mochasatin

Our children do not know a world without computers and the internet. At the same time, shop classes and the manual arts are disappearing from our school curriculum. The young engineers of today prefer 3D design and animation over 2D drafting for most projects. What we tend to forget is that CNC was developed toward the end of WWII, so it is not a new concept by any means. The difference now is the equipment and technology is more affordable, more available and easier to use. In my opinion, CNC technology is not just a new "tool", rather CNC systems are a fairly radical departure from traditional woodworking because they harnesses the power of the microprocessor like no other woodworking tools we have used before.

Personally, I think CNC and other digital systems will inspire young people to become woodworkers and take the art to new levels. I know my daughter would be excited if she could design a project on her smart phone, send it to a CNC router over Bluetooth and then watch it materialize in front of her. Many of today's children will become woodworkers, but they will not be their father's woodworkers.


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## oldnovice

*mochasatin* I agree with you 100%!
My 10 year old grandson, who knows a lot about computers, keeps bugging me to let him make something and he is learning how to create toolpaths now but he does not know how to do the speeds and feeds yet …. something that is not easy for many people.


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## Waldo88

> Personally, I think CNC and other digital systems will inspire young people to become woodworkers and take the art to new levels. I know my daughter would be excited if she could design a project on her smart phone, send it to a CNC router over Bluetooth and then watch it materialize in front of her. Many of today s children will become woodworkers, but they will not be their father s woodworkers.
> 
> - mochasatin


True. But the art is much more varied and diverse than that.

Fact is there is just a limited number of people with the talent to be on the design cutting edge. Even as it becomes easier and easier to realize design; as the implementation effort declines, there is still the fact that design talent just isn't that common. Talented individuals will dream up and make great things for sure.

I work in design (engineering); I can construct 3D models in my head with relative ease (including modeling the paper communication of other people's designs), and can manipulate these models with ease, at speeds and accuracy that blow away what even the best/simplest software is capable of emulating; over the years I've come to realize just how scarce this skill is, even among fellow engineers. All the best tools, whether software or some sort of machine, is nothing more than a means of communicating or implementing a design; design does not occur in software, that's just how its communicated (today) because language is woefully inadequate. Design is a learned skill certainly, but there very much is a strong natural talent component as well that isn't learned. Advancements in tooling and software isn't going to change this fact. Cutting edge high design will always be in limited supply.

However I think the whole "handmade" movement is also going to continue to grow and intensify. Younger people clearly value it. I think we've reached a point in the consumer market where handmade is a radical departure from the consumer market, which wasn't really the case a few decades ago. Most wooden things you can buy in stores nowadays is cheap crap; it looks like cheap crap, it performs like cheap crap, there is predictably a reaction against that. In the past there was at least effort by the mass market to perform at or above the level of handmade things, that just isn't the case anymore. Handmade things now (not just WWing) is very much a growing area. CnC has very little role with this sort of work; the imperfections that indicate a piece is handmade is just as valuable as the patina on antiques, you just can't fake it. Think of where the pallet wood craze goes from here.

CnC has been around long enough that its impact on the commercial market is already old news.


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## rwe2156

Craft? Yes. (Creativity is part of craft, but using one's hand is implicit)

Fun? No.

I won't go so far as our illustrious CIC and say "you didn't built that", but I will say just be honest and give at least 1/2 the credit to the robot!


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## oldnovice

> Fact is there is just a limited number of people with the talent to be on the design cutting edge. Even as it becomes easier and easier to realize design; as the implementation effort declines, there is still the fact that design talent just isn t that common. Talented individuals will dream up and make great things for sure.
> 
> I work in design (engineering); I can construct 3D models in my head with relative ease (including modeling the paper communication of other people s designs), and can manipulate these models with ease, at speeds and accuracy that blow away what even the best/simplest software is capable of emulating; over the years I ve come to realize just how scarce this skill is, even among fellow engineers. All the best tools, whether software or some sort of machine, is nothing more than a means of communicating or implementing a design; design does not occur in software, that s just how its communicated (today) because language is woefully inadequate. Design is a learned skill certainly, but there very much is a strong natural talent component as well that isn t learned. Advancements in tooling and software isn t going to change this fact. Cutting edge high design will always be in limited supply.
> 
> - Waldo88


I think that you might mistaking about *"a limited number of people with the talent to be on the design cutting edge"* because sometimes it just takes the proper tools to bring out the laten talent and skill.
I worked in many facets of design from semiconductor to DNA synthesis to Laser interferometry and distributed control, for over 40 years and have seen that happen more times than I can count.
Here in Silicon Valley you cannot turn around without bumping into highly talented individuals.


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## MrRon

CNC is not for everyone. It all depends on the type of projects you work on. In a commercial setting, it is indispensable. As a home hobbyist tool; again it depends on what you are making. I build models of trains and am building a CNC router to assist in that endeavor. There are many intricate duplicate parts I have to make for my models and a CNC is the way to go. It can't do everything, as there is still a lot of hand work to do, but when it is all complete, I can still proudly say I MADE IT. I regard a CNC as nothing more than a tool. Until it becomes an autonomous robot, it will just be a tool.


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## oldnovice

*+1 MrRon*


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## JAAune

> Handmade things now (not just WWing) is very much a growing area. CnC has very little role with this sort of work; the imperfections that indicate a piece is handmade is just as valuable as the patina on antiques, you just can t fake it. Think of where the pallet wood craze goes from here.
> 
> - Waldo88


I can put imperfections into a CNC program or cut a joint by hand that's so perfect, people will assume it's machine-made. Most customers are not knowledgeable woodworkers and can't distinguish between handmade and machine made. In fact, there are many factories that intentionally mimic sloppy, handmade work then sell to unsuspecting tourists.

David Pye specialized in producing woodwork by hand with machine-like precision. However, his trademark was to make one "mistake" in every piece. His idea was to get people to think his work came from a factory unless they were clever enough to spot the one flaw.


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## Ger21

> Fact is there is just a limited number of people with the talent to be on the design cutting edge.


100% true. 
That's why you see 99% of hobbyist CNC users making the same thing, and why the "anti-cnc" crowd claims that the CNC does all the work. Actually, it's somebody else doing all the work, because most people don't have the design skills required.
Some think you can buy design skill by buying high end software that will make them better. It doesn't work that way. Either you have talent, or you don't.


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## oldnovice

> Fact is there is just a limited number of people with the talent to be on the design cutting edge.
> 
> 100% true.
> That s why you see 99% of hobbyist CNC users making the same thing, and why the "anti-cnc" crowd claims that the CNC does all the work. Actually, it s somebody else doing all the work, because most people don t have the design skills required.
> Some think you can buy design skill by buying high end software that will make them better. It doesn t work that way. Either you have talent, or you don t.
> 
> - Ger21


I beg to differ *Gerry*!

*If you are focused totally on woodworking, just take a tour of the projects on this site!*

If you include all endeavors of life, I believe that the proper tools and focused energy can unlock latent talent and ingenuity in almost anyone.


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## ArtMann

After woodworking for almost 40 years in the conventional way, I retired and bought myself a CNC router. The machine has greatly improved my ability to make beautiful things that other people admire and want to buy. I can do so many things that would be completely impractical using carving knives or chisels. It is the most fun I have had making things out of wood in a very long time. I boldly and confidently tell people that I carved my products on my CNC machine and nobody misunderstands what I am doing or complains that I didn't do it with my bare hands. That argument is just plain silly.


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## TheFridge

It can add nice touches.


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## wuddoc

I see CNC as another tool in the tool box. As I use to tell my students, hand tools are not obsolete just because they do not have a cord attached. CNC is another way to complete a step in producing something your mind has imagined.


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