# Board Feet....Did I get "swindled"?



## DylanC (Jan 29, 2011)

I stopped at my local hardwood dealer today yo pick up some lumber (maple) for one of my first projects. I know enough to know that when you buy hardwood, its usually not fully prepped. The lumber I picked up is Surfaced Two Sides (S2S) but still needs the edges to be dressed up on the jointer, there are a few split ends that need to be addressed, and similar things. I know this is normal. I also know that if you want specific dimensions, such as a 6" wide board, you're probably going to pay extra. The dealer I was at does not allow customers to pick through the stack to get the widths you want. You start at the top of the stack and work your way down. If you want a wider board, you go home and glue two narrow boards together.

Anyway, The owner of the place looked at my cutlist and figured I'd need ~30 board feet or so (See the cutting diagram for the LATERAL FILE here, disregard the diagrams for the PRINTER CABINET). Also, he didn't have any 8' stock ready, but we figured I'd be fine with a few extra 6 footers. So, we loaded up a dozen boards or so (4/4 thick), he wrote me up for 32 board feet (plus the plywood) and I was on my way.

So, I get home and figure I better make a plan on how to glue up some of these narrow boards to make wide boards, and minimize the amount of waste. Most of the boards measure 3-3/4" or 3-1/2" wide, with two or three measuring between 6 and 9 inches. Again, most are between 72 and 75 inches long, but one is about 81 inches long.

Now, just for grins, I figure I'll double check how many board feet I have. For example, first board was 3-1/2" wide and 75" long. So, 3.5 times 75 divided by 144 equals 1.8 board feet. I do this for the remainder of the boards, using conservative measurements. For example, rounding down to the nearest quarter inch on the width, and subtracting a few inches on the length for a split end here and there. The grand total: 24 board feet.

Now my question: Did I get what I paid for? Are board feet measured like a quarter-pounder at McDonalds?...i.e. rough dimensions prior to drying? And even if this is the case, a 25% difference seems a bit steep to me. I'm just looking for a few "expert opinions" on the subject.

Thanks for any advice…

-DylanC


----------



## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

This might help 
http://www.heartwoods.com/html/calculator.html


----------



## awsimons (Apr 26, 2009)

I wouldn't do business with him again. I wouldn't put up with being forced to buy a bunch of 3" wide boards. I feel like my local lumber yard ripped me off too, so now, I mail order wood from Wall Lumber.

EDIT: After actually looking at the plans, maybe you only needed 3" wide boards. Anyway, I would expect if I paid for 32 bdft of wood to get 32 bdft.

Alan


----------



## pintodeluxe (Sep 12, 2010)

Most suppliers will charge you for the full width and length of the board, regardless of defects. Because of that I only shop at dealers where I can pick the best stock from the pile.


----------



## jusfine (May 22, 2010)

Our wholesaler will measure a 3.5" board at 4", 6.25" will be 6, and so on. I always check my boards and try to buy as close to the inch as possible without going more than 1/4" over.

This may account for some of your discrepancies. Also the length might be rounded up if you have something longer than the midway point. We also pay 5% shrinkage, which is charged on any hardwoods here. They say they are charged and must pass it on.

Your example of a 3.5" board figures up to 2.08, which would end up 2.1 + 5% shrinkage = 2.2 board feet, and so it may add up closer than what you had figured.

The shrinkage "scam" doesn't make me happy but there is no way around it, although one supplier here has now included it in his board foot price.

You could check if that is the practise there.

All the best!


----------



## DylanC (Jan 29, 2011)

Tomorrow I plan on re-measuring my lumber and rounding-up to estimate the nominal size of the boards and include the split ends, etc. If I don't get pretty close to 32 board feet, I may end up paying this guy another visit…


----------



## HolzMechanikerUSA (Jan 15, 2011)

Take it all back, ask to see the owner or whoever higher than the sales person and get your money back if they don't provide you with a proper explanation as to why this person ripped you off.


----------



## ChunkyC (Jun 28, 2009)

I think Randy is on the track. They round up a LOT. Instead of using 75" for the length, try using 7 feet. I'll bet you get closer to the 32 bf that you paid for.

If he won't let you browse the stack, then it's time to find somewhere else. I just got back from the Hardwood dealer today. Mine not only allows it, but he will sort the pile finding the best boards for you! He even cut off a piece of Purpleheart for me. I couldn't believe that at $8/bf he was willing to whacked off 4' and he whacked off the best end, the other end had a knot. He said, "Oh you don't want the knot…"

Find a new source…


----------



## ShaneA (Apr 15, 2011)

Find another place. Like most retailers it sounds like they figure it at 4/4 thick, even thought its probably 25/32. That would explain 25% difference. You gotta be able to pick your own sticks! This is non negotiable.


----------



## HerbC (Jul 28, 2010)

ShaneA,

I believe the rules and standards for determining board feet of American hardwoods say that any thickness less than 1" (4/4) is treated as being 1" thick.

Herb


----------



## tom427cid (Aug 21, 2011)

I have a rule--if I am buying material I want to "pick the pile".Period. If that guy told me "off the top" I wouldn't ever shop there again and would gladly drive 100 miles out of my way to be treated better than that.
The other side of the coin is if I pick the pile I am damn sure to restack it better than or just as good as it was before I got there-and that is rule number two. Maybe thats why I can pick and others can't. Anyway thems the rules.
tom


----------



## rance (Sep 30, 2009)

I'm with Andrew(Edit: and Tom), take it ALL back and get your money back. Take your business elsewhere. I've heard of the the 'shrinkage' scam but noone around here trys it.

"...start at the top of the stack and work your way down…", that's a load of crap. And if you need a 5" wide board, find a 5.25" wide(or wider) board to start with. No gluing required(unless YOU decide to).

Shane, I believe he already figured 4/4 so that shouldn't be any different.


----------



## fussy (Jan 18, 2010)

I am with rance and all who say take it back. First gripe is not being allowed to pick through. I don't mind restacking, but I have to be able to pick. At one of the best around here, Harold White Millworks in Morehead, Ky. I was looking for rift sawn white oak to repair a 100 year old desk. He didn't run rift, but as it can happen in milling and he knew where he had seen it, he lead me straight to a stack, burrowed into it and came up with 30 bd/ft of perfectly beauytiful rift sawn and loaded it for me. Next time I asked to paw through his stacks, he asked what I wanted, showed me where to find it and wished me well. As I loaded I wrote down what I was getting using the full sizes, he measured and deducted split ends and came up with a lower figure than I had. I will go there again.

Vote with your feet if you can't get satisfaction.

Steve


----------



## live4ever (Feb 27, 2010)

This happened to me early on in my hardwood purchasing as well. I've learned that the guys at my favorite yard all measure differently - one guy rounds up, another rounds down, and so on. 32 to 24 is pretty bad though. It might be that he ripped you off on purpose, but more likely is a board was just left laying around somewhere and not loaded up into your vehicle (or a board you didn't want was included in the total).

I make sure to premeasure now and calculate the board feet before they ring me up. If they do have any intent to rip you off, they won't do it if they've seen you measuring.


----------



## Arminius (Dec 27, 2007)

Between being off by a third, forcing you to buy without regard to quality, and lack of sizes in inventory, unless this guy is by far (more than 33%) cheaper than anyone else in your market, move on. Any one of those three is reason enough to look elsewhere.


----------



## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

Since both faces are surfaced, he is probably charging you as if you were purchasing 5/4 rough instead of 4/4.

24bf * 5/4 = 30bf (still not 32bf)

If you are already paying a premium for S2S, then something is really wrong. As many others have mentioned, the "no picking through the stack" rule would send me running elsewhere.


----------



## StumpyNubs (Sep 25, 2010)

The first thing I would do is load all that crap up and take it back. Then tell them they're nuts for not letting you pick your own boards. Maybe they don't want you rummaging through the whole stack and making a mess. But if I want 8" wide, I am not going to buy narrow boards and glue them together any more than I'm going to weld two 1" wood screws end to end to make a 2" one. How can you manage the grain and look of a piece if you can't select your wood? It's not your problem that they want to sell off their junk instead of the good stuff.

I would never shop there again, and I'd tell them so.


----------



## SteviePete (May 10, 2009)

You probably missed the 30% restocking charge. Whatever. ha ha

I usually don't dicker price, always negotiate scale. If you request high grade you will pay much more than for #1 or 2 common Common will usually give you enough 3-4 inch cuttings to make it a cost saver. I "review" the grade by the board with the sales person. Most (nearly all) proprietors will work with you--they know lots more than I do. But I still carry a stick, tape measure, chalk and calculator. Draw a picture for each grade showing acceptable %of clear and size of cuts. Walnut and butternut includes many more defects-expect lots of trim. I expect have lots of trim and purchase at least 20% extra. If I must match grain or color-plan on 30% or more. Take the preceeding with a grain of salt. Retired and doing this for fun.

p.s. I find that most backyard sawyers are really good folk and give you a generous scale, will throw in extras, and will offer coffee or a snort. I don't do anything above with those kind of folks. Say thank you, lots. Good luck. SPJ


----------



## miles125 (Jun 8, 2007)

This is sort of like how coffee prices stay the same because the can keeps shrinking in size.


----------



## ChunkyC (Jun 28, 2009)

Here's an interactive flash tutorial on how to calculate bf using a lumber ruler. It also explains how many retailers round the bf calculations to get even numbers.


----------



## miles125 (Jun 8, 2007)

Board feet and square feet aren't the same thing. Hence a 3/4" x 11 1/4" x !2" piece of wood is one board foot but only .916 of a square foot. All very subjective when you get to rough and unstraightened lumber. Most distributors adopt the attitude of "Hey i bought all the knots, twists and curves and plan on selling them too".


----------



## Billinmich (Mar 8, 2008)

I wouldn't buy from them again.Every place I go allows me to select my own wood as long as I restack.How else are you going to match color and grain.


----------



## oldworld124 (Mar 2, 2008)

Here is how it works where I buy lumber. For example, I want to buy S2S ( surfaced 2 sides ) premium clear maple, we take a flat cart and put the boards side by side. We then measure the width and length and note that down. Say it comes to 51" wide and 8' long. We then continue the process until finished.
The total is multiplied by the price of S2S of that species. Very simple.
There are normally different grades of wood. premium clear, select tight knot, common, etc. The prices are set per board foot. Surfaced material is still priced per BF as if it was still rough. It is higher priced than rough because it has obviously been milled on 2 surfaces. They could just as easily be purchased in the rough and then sent out for surfacing. One would buy the wood first rough. The convenience of buying the wood surfaced on two faces allows one to color and grain match easier. We all ay more for this if we want to hand select the material. Many cabinet shops do not care too much about grain and color because they stain the wood to a more even tone.
We, who specialize in custom built have a tendency to be more picky.

As for the lumber dealer you have dealt with not allowing you to select is not good. I have had this happen before and left immediately. These yards do not want the walk-in customer and usually cater to the larger cabinet shops. Some have had customers go through stacks in the past who did not re-stack properly causing a lot of lumber to eventually warp or waste a lot of the yard's time reorganizing the stacks.

I have developed good relations with the yards I frequent and am allowed to hand select becasue I make sure the stack is organized after I am finished.


----------



## DylanC (Jan 29, 2011)

This morning I re-measured the pile. This time I made no deductions for split ends, bad edges, etc. Measureing this way I've got between 30 and 32 bf. If the lumber was measured on nominal size (i.e. 3-3/4" = 4"), I got my 32 bf I paid for and then some.

After seeing how passionate most of you are about picking through the pile, I did a quick price check between the dealer I went to (Dealer 1), another local wholesaler (another 25 miles down the road)(Dealer 2), and Home Depot.

Dealer 1: $2.25 /bf
Dealer 2: $3.40 /bf (random widths and lengths)
Dealer 2: $3.90 /bf (pick for width up to 6", more for wider widths)
Home Depot: $6 /bf

So, my cheapest alternative is another 25 miles down the road and costs 50% more, at least. I appreciate everyone's advice, but I think my local guy is still the best game in town.

Again, thanks for all the advice.


----------



## Howie (May 25, 2010)

Usually yards like that don't stay in business long. If I can't sort I can't buy. I accept the rounding(3-1/2=1×4) but will not accept no sorting.


----------



## JJohnston (May 22, 2009)

There's only 1 decent hardwood dealer in Albuquerque (and only 2 total), and their policy is you can go down 3 layers looking for the boards you want. I guess that's tolerable considering their captive market.


----------



## live4ever (Feb 27, 2010)

At least you're getting a nice discount for not being allowed to pick through the pile. Develop a relationship with this guy and maybe YOU will be one of the special people who ARE allowed to pick through the pile. Then you'll have a really good situation on your hands.


----------



## rance (Sep 30, 2009)

A lot of places sell you the knots. If you complain, then sometimes you can get them deducted but generally you are buying a WHOLE board, scars and all. That's why we are allowed to pick through the pile. The other reason for picking through the pile is to get the widths that fit your project. "No picking" would be a tough pill to swallow. Looks like you got all your BF though IMO. The cheaper price justifies the knots. Now go make that file cabinet and show it to us.


----------



## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

At first as I read this thread I was thinking "Take it back…. this dealer is a jerk." But after seeing that he is considerably cheaper, I guess it's a reasonable trade-off. It's up to you as a customer to decide if you want to pay more for the right to pick over the boards.

Having worked in a lumber yard many years ago, I can appreciate why some dealers don't allow picking. Some folks will go through a whole bunk of construction grade 2×4's looking for 10 that are 100% straight with no knots, and leave 100 boards strewn to the side of the pile.


----------



## Sawkerf (Dec 31, 2009)

My supplier has a "no picking" policy with signs on the racks, but it's only enforced on the dimwits who leave the racks in a mess.

I always hand pick my lumber and leave the rack as neat (or neater) than I found it. A few months ago, I moved several pieces of 5/4 out of the 4/4 rack. One of the guys started ragging on me for "screwing up" the racks. When we got to the checkout - and the boss could hear - I asked him how much discount did I get for putting the 5/4 where it belonged. The turkey gave me the finger!!! - lol


----------



## dwinkel (Apr 10, 2009)

I occasionally sell wood and I try to abide by the NHLA grading and measurement rules. But I'm not a licensed inspector or anything so I just do my best. You can get a copy of the rules here: http://www.nhla.com/rulesbook.

Here are a few passages that seemed like they might be relevant:

"the board foot is based on the measurement before surfacing"

"Fractions below the half foot shall be dropped and fractions above the half foot shall be counted as of the next higher foot."

"Sales of random width hardwood lumber measured after kiln drying shall be quoted, invoiced, and delivered on the basis of net board footage, with no addition of footage for kiln drying shrinkage or surfacing."


----------



## WDHLT15 (Aug 15, 2011)

When I sell lumber, I do not round. If the board is 5 1/2" wide, I figure the BF on the exact width. On length, I saw boards always with 4 to 6" of trim, i.e. an 8' board is actually 8 1/2' long. I figure the BF on 8' and the trim is not included. All this is rough cut lumber, not S2S.


----------



## tom427cid (Aug 21, 2011)

Sawkerf.
Nice!!! hope the boss chewed on him after you left.
tom


----------



## HawkDriver (Mar 11, 2011)

The no pick policy is rediculous.


----------



## NathanAllen (Oct 16, 2009)

Best way to figure this out is to take out your square and measure the boards, if they're S2S 1 - 1/16" then you actually purchased 5/4 rough.

I'm also going to agree that the no-pick policy is beyond ridiclous. I can see that with the rough bins, but once you go to S2S, S2S Straight Line or S4S pricing you have given up the right to say you get what you get.

My hardwood supplier allows picking, is honest on thickness, but horrible for rounding up on width and length. Everything gets bumped up to the nearest inch.


----------



## Grandpa (Jan 28, 2011)

My local yard has the hardwood in a different house. I can pick but it is marked with the BF on th eend. If I disagree I tell the guy there to pull his tape and measure it. He will. We load then he has all the number written on a paper. He reads it to the man at the register. It works pretty well. Tell him to remeasure if you don't agree. Ask him if her would pay that for a knot. If he says he bought it then he needs to keep it. It is his and I will tell him so. We get along well.


----------



## WDHLT15 (Aug 15, 2011)

Actually, 5/4 rough in hardwood is typically cut at 1 3/8". In most cases in the hardwood sawmilling world, buyers expect 1/8" over nominal. So a 4/4 rough board would be sawn at 1 1/8". 6/4 would be 1 5/8" and so on.


----------



## yrob (May 26, 2008)

Amazing! I did not realize lumberyard dealers would give you trouble like not allowing you to pick your boards. That is the main point why I go there. The yard I go to not only allows it, they assign you a guy to help rumage through the pile and pick what you need.


----------



## fge (Sep 8, 2008)

Not sure if my exp applies or not. I was purchasing walnut from one of our suppliers about 6 months ago. I had out of walnut for a kitchen, just needed about 100 bf more for drawer faces. The supplier had the "no pick through pile" policy I was not aware of. They were

```
the end of a pallet, about 100 bf left on the pallet.  And, without exageration, every board left was between 80%-100% Sap/blonde wood on both sides of the board.  Out of the entire bundle I was purchasing there was only 1 board with any heart wood.  They had me loaded up.  I came out to my truck, seen that stuff, immediately began unloading the wood back on to their pallet.  The bean counter became immediately offended and just ran off without saying anything and went looking for his "big daddy" who.came and exained to me about their "no pick through" policy.  I replied that their policy was just fine with me but no where in that policy does it force me to be their customer and buy "the worst of the pallet" and informed him that I had a customer's interest
```
 hand and advised him that I am a fan of getting paid. There is no way my customer would have paid me using 100% sap wood for the drawer faces.

Please excuse errors, tuff to type on my Evo while watching Stanford/USC game.


----------



## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

Can't say if you got swindled for sure. Too many variables.

I have been in two yards that did not allow picking…outside. If you went inside, the price was higher, but you got to pick. If I was building a home, I wouldn't worry too much about getting a twisted board or two, I can chop them into small pieces that are good somewhere. I've bought wall studs 200 at a time, and gotten some bad ones, that's just the way it is. If I'm building a nice cabinet or box, I get to pick. But then I live within 20 miles of probably 2 dozen wood stores.Some folks don't have that luxury.


----------



## ArlinEastman (May 22, 2011)

I only order from the net like Wall Lumber or http://www.woodworkerssource.com/ they have quality lumber and very good prices.
Arlin


----------



## GuildWoodworker (Oct 31, 2011)

I think you got stung. I'm with the others as to the 'no pick-through' policy (avoid these guys like the plague). I get my lumber from Hardwoods, Inc. in Frederick, Maryland. He will allow you to walk his warehouse and pick out the lumber you want-not what he decides he'll sell you. If you're within 4 hours of Frederick, I'd recommend these folks. It's worth the drive. Call first to determine what he's got in stock (sometimes quantities are limited)-but he's usually got plenty of Wenge, Bocote, Purpleheart, Padauk, and Goncalo Alves. Zebra is almost nonexistant…not that it's any sort of pleasure to work.


----------

