# SawStop does it make us safer or more careless?



## Huckleberry (Nov 7, 2007)

Hello to all, in my last woodworking class that I had on Tues. the teacher and I had a pretty good debate about the Saw stop table saw. I am sure that most everyone has heard of these saws and how they are suppose to prevent tablesaw injuries. Let me give some background on some of the subject, I am a steelworker and I work at the caster and I realize most will not know about that. So I will give a brief over-view, at the caster we take molten steel and basically spray water on it to make a slab that is then rolled into a coil of steel. So needless to say there are a lot of risks at this particular part of the mill. And sometimes you have to take some risks that can change your life, literally. Now I'm not saying that this is always the case but sometimes this does happen, kind of like firefighting in a way. So to let my fingers pass within a couple of inches to a saw blade on a saw that is *suppose to disappear when it contacts our fingers* didn't really bother me, I mean heck I felt safe doing it that way. So on Tues. I am cutting a piece of 6/4 oak and I am cutting widths of 3 1/2" *without the use of push sticks* and the teacher really busted my you know whats about what I was doing. I have seen these saws brakes being engaged so I know that ours work properly so I guess that I had a too secure feeling about what I was doing. I know that I would not attempt that kind of a cut on an ordinary tablesaw without the use of my push blocks. And as my teacher put it, *where will the line be drawn for shop safety if you look at something that you have done a certain way and are comfortable doing that way when in fact if someone else saw us doing it they might freak*. So please know that a *lesson was learned* and *my hope is that we all look at how safe we are in our shops*. I know there are times when things have to be done certain ways that may not be as safe as we would like, but always step back a try another approach. Our motto if you will at the steel mill is to go home the same way you came to work. So the thought hit me I am very cautious at work about safety so I can go home to my wife and four kids and to do a hobby that I love. I had better make sure that I am safe doing what I love.


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## rockom (Oct 20, 2007)

Yea….It's kind of like the airbag on your car…or the floating seats on an airplane. They are their for your safety but you don't ever want to find out how well they work.

-Rocko


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## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

and I think the trick is to forget that it is there!


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## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

3 1/2 inch widths? Sometimes fingers are safer than push sticks. No matter what type of saw you use.


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## Argyllshire (Sep 13, 2007)

I understand what you are saying.We can become complacent when regularly exposed to danger.Part of that is because we have learned to trust ourselves in a risky endeavor.Thats what it takes of course or we wouldnt be able to do our job.We need to become comfortable working around machinery,or even doing a dangerous job,but we must to do it in the safest manner possible.But that isnt the same as taking risks.We musnt get cocky or bend the rules.
Our shop purchased 2 Saw Stops after one of the employees cut the tips off 3 fingers.No one (so far) acts any different,or more relaxed because of its safety features.But they may in time.
I dont believe these saws
will encourage unsafe habits in me anymore than air bags do for my driving.But it might in someone else.


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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

Let's see this from an experts point of view!

Get the Grr-ripper and use it.

Cheers
Bob


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## North40 (Oct 17, 2007)

Bob - that's gross! And disturbingly funny.

I think the thing to remember is that despite SawStop's insistance that nothing can go wrong, the mechanism is controlled by electronics and sensors which can fail.


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Peter - you make the best point of all. It's a machine-- it can fail. Airbags fail all the time, as do other safety features. Don't put yourself at ease because you feel like you can trust the machine. It's a false sense of security. I don't want to be the one that it fails on. Someday someone is going to loose a finger because that saw did not stop and they will get a lawyer and blame the machine when the blame probably belonged to them.

Its a great safety feature but I don't want to trust it. Practice safety, buy the saw if you feel more comfortable using it, but don't rely on it above your brain.


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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

Peter, the reason I brought Emo into the discussion is that he was portraying the over confident individual that quite obviously, from the body language, could be at risk with a power tool.

Sometimes we need to take a good look in the mirror when we run risks in the woodshop.

You have to know *the guy or gal in the mirror *inside out before you pull the switch on a power tool.

I treat all my tools as if they were cobras.

Cheers

Bob


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## mot (May 8, 2007)

If the Sawstop was a system that took a bunch of the human portion out of the cut, then I'd be more concerned. It's just a safety feature like a seatbelt or an airbag. I don't have a stronger desire to drive into a bridge abutment just because I have an airbag, nor would lose my mind and stick my hand in the blade just because I had a sawstop. The seatbelt and airbag is there in case of unusual, unforseen and drastic situations…as is the sawstop.


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## North40 (Oct 17, 2007)

Bob - I get it. But it was still gross. And funny. "Boy is my face red!" I don't think of my power tools as cobras - more like big brothers. I really enjoy doing things with them, but I always know in the back of my mind that they can beat the snot out of me if I step out of line even for a moment.

Tom, I agree, mostly. It's a safety device, not an anti-idiot device. Still, I don't think that the problem is that someone would put their thumb in the saw because it's "safe". No one wants even a little nick. The problem is with complacency and carelessness. I'm not going to purposefully rear-end someone because I have an airbag - but I might follow a little closer because I feel safe in my car. When the roads get bad around here in the winter, four out of five cars in the ditch are four-wheel-drives. The drivers don't purposefully drive into the ditch to see if their brand new SUV can take it - but they feel like the 4WD allows them to not be so careful.


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## Grumpy (Nov 9, 2007)

Thanks for the reminder Huck. A friend once told me of an old carpenter's adage, "never put your finger where you would not put your you know what". This little test works all the time. I have a baker friend who trusted the dough mixing machine not to jump into gear, it did & took all the fingers off his reght hand, not a nice legacy.


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## Chip (Mar 13, 2007)

You invested in Sawstop didn't you Tom. Come on now, you can tell us…


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## handplane (Oct 31, 2007)

I have had the SawStop table saw in my home shop since it was released. I waited on the pre-order list to get one. I read all the debates on woodworking forums of the people who were saying that it wasn't necessary or that they didn't want a saw that had this feature because they were afraid it might fire when they cut green wood or whatever. The worst for me was reading that it was too expensive and "not worth it". The reality is that the saw itself is first rate. The safety feature is a bonus, despite the price. Not only do I still fear and respect a carbide tipped spinning blade - therefore giving me a reason to always use push sticks for anything but obviously safe cuts, I'm afraid of accidentally triggering the system by getting too close to the blade. Just because you have the saw doesn't mean you're rich enough to destroy sawblades and brake cartridges by accidentally touching the blade because you don't use push sticks under the false impression you can't get hurt with this saw.

The price of a misfire helps motivate me to use normal safety devices instead of thinking I don't have to!


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## Dadoo (Jun 23, 2007)

You know, if you have a history of always being at the wrong place, at the wrong time…and you're an accident looking for a place to happen, then maybe you shouldn't be in the woodshop at all! But if you must, then you need to keep a phone nearby (one that you can dial with your nose) and a Sawstop may be the best thing for you to consider. But remember guys (and gals) that powertools have been around for a long time, and I really don't know the stats, but, most powertool accidents happen because the operator was not paying attention. Carelessness.

So hey, lets be careful out there!


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## niki (Mar 26, 2007)

First, I would like to say that according to what I read on many other forums, the SS is an excellent saw by itself even without the "hot dog" feature and it even comes with Riving Knife that can prevent half a kickback (the other half is not installed on the SS).

But, maybe I'm from the old generation and I still don't believe that computer can save my fingers…you never know when things can go wrong with computer…

"Ladies and Gentleman, this aircraft is fully automatically and, nothing can go wrong…nothing can go wrong…nothing can go wrong…wrong…wrong…wrong…Peeeee, game over".

The pilot that was on a landing phase at Nagoya airport, trusted his Autoland system and before he realized what happened, he was 3 feet under the ground or at least splashed all over the field.

The airplane nose pitched up to 45° (from the flight data recorder) and during the landing phase, your chances to recover are very close to zero.

The examples of the seat belt and the air-bag are good but, they are not there for "controlled crash" they are there for situations that are not in our control (you can be the best driver but, when somebody crosses the line to your lane…)

I think that the best that we can do for our young generation is to teach them the safe way and technics.

I replied to the same post in a UK forum and asked…"Can you give me a scenario that the SS will save your fingers…I mean, something like - I work without the guard or, I'm pushing the wood while my fingers are 1/8" from the blade or alike"......usually, that was the last post on that thread…

So, come on friends, give me your good reasons/scenarios that you need the SS….

Another small thing, everybody that worked/works in aviation saw it on the wall…

"Accidents do not happen - they are caused"

Oh, I would like to show you my blade guard…I just touched it lightly by mistake…if it was not there, you would see a picture with a lot red color….but, it was there…

Regards
niki


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## Karson (May 9, 2006)

Well you know the reason they use a hot dog to test the Saw Stop, because none of the employees are stupid enough to use their finger to demo it.

If it fails it's just a hot dog.


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## gene (Oct 8, 2007)

All tool and machinery safety features are great! I am very proud and happy of the fact, that I have worked construction and woodworking most of my adult life (that's about 44 years worth) and I still have 2 eyes, 10 fingers, and 10 toes. This didn't happen by accident. It came by using fore thought and not taking chances. The times I came close to getting hurt, where the times that my mind jumped out of gear. Always think of what could go wrong, "Because it just might !" Turn the old beanie on before you turn the tool on. That's the best piece of safety equipment on the market. I still plan on keeping all of my body parts in tact ! And, If I continue to use my head? I just might.
Just my 2 cents
God bless


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## JGCW (Oct 2, 2007)

I have a friend who runs a place called http://www.thesawdustshop.com/index.asp It's a place that you can rent time to build projects. Most of the people there are amateur woodworkers and some are pretty darn good.

He has sawstops for table saws exclusively and over the course of 2 years He has gone through 12 cartridges with not one major injury.

Being a veteran woodworker and owner of a custom woodworking business, who has been behind a saw for going on 25 years without an incident, I cant wait to buy one. It's not a matter of if but when IMO.


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## miles125 (Jun 8, 2007)

I think it requires a certain type of patience in the personality to be safe around power tools. Some people just don't need to be around em.


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## Chip (Mar 13, 2007)

Karson, If you read some of the articles on the saw, the inventor actually got up the nerve, bless his heart.

I ditto what miles said. I think the saw is extremely well made and the stop is a wonderful precaution. But no electronic safeguard will ever replace patience and good old common sense (which, sadly, there seems to be a general lack of in the world these days).


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## mot (May 8, 2007)

Hey Chip, nope, I don't have one. I like them, but I'm not sold just yet. I would have to reconfigure my shop….AGAIN…and find a new place for my planer…I'm fine with my GI contractors saw. For now.


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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

http://www.cartoonstock.com/newscartoons/cartoonists/jlv/lowres/jlvn688l.jpg
The devil made me do it!

Bob


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

GROAN!!! - at least it was not bloody like the video clip.


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## lazyfiremaninTN (Jul 30, 2007)

Well folks….As a professional risk taker (aka Dumba## Fireman/Paramedic) I have to say that I really like the idea of the SS. Everyone of us has to admit that, at some point in time, while in the garage/shop, we have had a "homerism" (DOOOOOHHH) and had a close call. God gave a man the foresight and briliance to bring forth something to make the world safer, even if for a small minority of society and my hat goes off to him. I really have grown attached to my fingers and anything out there to assure that I keep them will eventually make it into my life. JMHO

Adrian


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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

Apparently the tablesaw is not the only tool in need of electronic safety controls.

As I said earlier I treat all my tools as if they were cobras.
I can handle cobras, I don't fear them, I just never let my guard down.

Bob


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## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

who needs a safety guard on their saw or one of those riving knives? Why would you pay for such contraptions?.. just keep your fingers away from the blade!

who needs a fire alarm in their house? just make sure your wiring is up to date, that the appliances are supervised and you don't fall asleep while you are smoking, oh and don't use candles. Why waste your money on a fire alarm?

who needs an automatic shut-off on appliances. Just don't leave them turned on when you are done. Why pay extra for that feature?

Why? because stuff happens.


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## miles125 (Jun 8, 2007)

So how much does it cost to outfit a typical saw with one of these?


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## coloradoclimber (Apr 7, 2007)

The reason is Debbie is because we make *reasonable* cost - risk trade offs. If you really wanted to be safe you would build yourself a plastic bubble lined with bubble wrap and never leave the safety of your house. Well, except that plastic is one of a zillion known carcinogens.

A riving knife is simple, inexpensive, reliable, and gives HUGE bang for your buck. Push blocks are simple, inexpensive, reliable, and again give a HUGE return on the investment.

Smoke alarms in homes are a commodity item. They are available from MANY sources, inexpensive, reasonably reliable, and give a pretty good return on the investment.

Why don't you have a personal doctor that lives with you all the time, monitors your heart rate, medicine, food, sleep, and every minor cut and scrape? The reason is because it is prohibitively expensive compared to the risk. It is simply not a good investment. Even though, btw, a lot more people die of heart disease than by being killed by table saws.

It has been documented multiple times the severity of injury and incident of death in car accidents goes up exponentially with speed. So if we really wanted to be safe we would mandate all cars could only go 25 miles per hour, or if we really wanted to be safe maybe 10 or 5 miles per hour. A lot more people die in car accidents that shop injuries. We could even put in some wonderful technology that only allows your car to go 10 miles per hour, then we'd be safe.

For me the Sawstop is not a good investment. In my opinion the technology is overpriced, unproven, of dubious value, and most offensive to me it is marketed on a policy of fear. The cost - value tradeoff just doesn't work for me.

BTW, even given my thoughts on personal responsibility and cost - benefit, I am resigned to the fact that eventually ALL power tools will be mandated to have intelligent braking technology. Given the number of idiots, lawyers, and sue happy americans (hmm, I guess those are all pretty redundant) eventually some industry safety group will ramrod yet another law for for big brother to control your life and decisions. There's always someone out there who thinks they can make decisions for you better than you can for yourself.

If it makes you feel safer buy one. You cant take your money to the grave, might as well spend it on something.


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## miles125 (Jun 8, 2007)

Coloradoclimber i have to agree with you to some extent when it comes to govt mandated safety.

The Nanny State may try and save people from getting their fingers slammed in car doors, but the tradeoff as to what it does to peoples mentality who become acclimated to such overly protected lives, reveals its nowhere near worth it.

Let the individual decide!


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## North40 (Oct 17, 2007)

It's interesting to me that there are so many strong feelings about this device. There are lots of safety devices out there, but you never see long discussions with such strong opinions about riving knives or anti-kickback router bits. I think Colorado cuts to the heart of the issue - it's not just the product, it's the company.

Basically the company marketing strategy seems to be to scare people into buying their product. Then if, in their opinion, people are too stupid to be scared or too hard to scare, they'll try to get the government to mandate their product (can you say monopoly?). Add to that their absolute refusal to even consider the possibility that their product could fail or malfunction, and you've got a company that I don't want to do business with. Is arrogance company policy?

If they were really convinced that without their product one in ten table saw users would be seriously injured by their saw in the next 10 years (according to their website), and if they were really concerned about those peoples safety, they'd figure out how to make a more affordable saw, or a retrofit for other brands. I keep hearing that their saw is top-of-the-line, even without the safety feature. How about the safety of all the people who can't afford a top-of-the-line saw, but who also have fingers? Yes, I know they are promising a contractor's saw out soon - but it will still cost more than many cabinet saws.

I can see the value of the product. I'd kind of like to have one. I don't think it eliminates every possible risk, but it significantly reduces the risk. But I don't want to do business with a company that behaves like SawStop.


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## coloradoclimber (Apr 7, 2007)

FWIW this topic has been beat to death on more forum threads than you can count. Here's one that went round and round recently on LJ:

Why Isn't Sawstop a Bigger Hit?

If you are interested enough just google sawstop and prepare to lose a significant chunk of your life.


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## mot (May 8, 2007)

Amen, CC! Beaten beyond recognition.


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## Huckleberry (Nov 7, 2007)

Well fellow woodworkers here I started a topic on safety and last night at my job guess what happened? It required 18 stitches and the loss of usage of my left hand for up to 10 days. To many details about my accident to talk about, but this is a big hit for me. I am in the middle of two big projects one for me and one for a customer and now its just one huge bummer. I am really fortunate on this custom book case job that I am doing, the customer happens to be a person that I work with and fully understands what has happened. I mean he saw all of the blood from this so he was more than happy to accept this delay. However this has really made me think what if this was for someone that I did not know? This is the first time I have ever thought about that. Well with my sudden and painful unscheduled vacation for turkey-day at least I can start some good conversations with you all.


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## miles125 (Jun 8, 2007)

Wow…Huckleberry that is bizzare since you brought up this thread. I hope you heal quickly and are back to work soon.


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## mot (May 8, 2007)

How'd it happen, Huck? I'm sorry you had an accident. Have you placed your order for the saw yet? That's not a joke by the way. It's a statement of concern for the future. Good luck with your recovery, but please post details of the accident.

Cheers!


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## Huckleberry (Nov 7, 2007)

Well how I got hurt is kind of a long story but I try to make it a shorter version. I was replacing some of our stock that comes in a 55 gal. barrel. We take these drums and set the on the edge of the stock bin using a forklift. We then use a torch to cut a hole in the bottom of the barrel so the stock can empty into this bin. This bin is about 36" tall, 40" wide, and 24" deep. When the barrel was empty and sometimes you have to shake around to get all of the stock out and once i had that done I had to move the forktruck and pull the barrel off of the bin. And when I pulled the barrel and set it on the floor I had my hand in a bad spot. I didn't even feel the cut and as I was walking around I was noticing blood on things and by chance I look down at the floor and there was blood all over my boots and pants. The cut was on the lateral side of the hand (Dr.'s terms) or what I would call the pinky finger side of our hands. This bad boy starts at my palm and goes down to the small finger and circles around to the top of my hand. If my camera was here I do some pics. Later during the investigation we found that at the top of this barrel some of the curled edges weren't curled any more, and that's what bit me. So I got hurt due to someone else beating the heck out of this barrel and mainly because I was not paying attention to the barrels' edges. Thanks for your concerns and I hope to bounce back quick. OH no not yet Tom that purchase is about two months away yet.


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## Dadoo (Jun 23, 2007)

Your caption, "Something that goes unnoticed will never be remembered" might not really apply anymore! Get well soon!


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## Chip (Mar 13, 2007)

Sorry to hear of your accident Huck. Hope you have a speedy recovery.

(steps gingerly over the dead horse)

CC: My understanding from reading the tons of articles on the Sawstop is that he (the inventor) initially wanted to sell the device to all of the big manufacturers and they balked for liability reasons. Only then did he proceed on his own. My understanding also is that he would gladly give up the TS manufacturing business if the big guys would start putting it on theirs. So I'm not to sure you're going to be seeing the devise on other saws anytime soon unless the government steps in and mandates it… which isn't very likely.


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## JGCW (Oct 2, 2007)

The reason Sawstop isnt standard equipment on other saws is NOT a liability issue , but a simply a matter of economics. I have read interviews with the owner of SS also and he has been told by all of the major manfacturers that the SS system costs too much and would hurt their sales.

The fact that SS has saved hundreds if not thousands of fingers is a testament that it works. I ordered my first SS yesterday. It's a well built machine that in many ways rivals Jet and Powermatic cabinet saws in quality and in warranty.

Not thinking you need the system is fine with me but saying it's stupid and unneeded to me is giving careless advice.


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## Chip (Mar 13, 2007)

Actually JGCW, liability is a matter of economics. And both were discussed in the articles and interviews I've read. I couldn't agree more that Sawstop is a finely made piece of equipment and applaud your purchase by the way.

(watches that dead horse wince)


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## coloradoclimber (Apr 7, 2007)

It's a free market. I can walk down to my local Woodcraft and buy as many Sawstops saws as I have money to spend. (or there's this guy over in Utah I keep hearing about selling so many Sawstops you cant hardly turn around without tripping over one).

If you really believe a Sawstop will make your life better, then by all means drive down to your local dealer and *BUY ONE*. Nobody is stopping you.

If you believe in the technology and want to be an evangelist, then rock on man, but don't be surprised to find out not everyone is drinking the same kool-aid you are. (although like most zealots you probably will be stunned and incoherent when you hear that someone disagrees with your position).

I can buy a sawstop just like I can buy a powermatic, just like I can buy a dozen other saws. Nobody is preventing me from buying a sawstop and, at least until sawstop gets it's way, no one is forcing me to buy a sawstop (or a saw equipped with sawstop technology).

If the sawstop is a better mousetrap the world will beat a path to his door.

Safety technology is great, flawed safety technology is not so great.

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From http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/09/AR2006100901172.html

not a single manufacturer has signed a contract with him [Mr Gass]. An Underwriters Laboratories Inc. subcommittee, with some of the saw manufacturers on the panel, voted in early 2003 not to approve his invention.

John Drengenberg , manager of consumer affairs for UL, which is based in Northbrook, Ill., said the independent testing organization thought there were too many unanswered questions.

Gass then changed direction, turning to the Washington regulatory establishment, in the form of the Consumer Product Safety Commission , to try to win acceptance for SawStop. He petitioned the agency in April 2003, asking it to *require the industry* to devise a detection system that would stop a saw blade so that a user would be cut no deeper than one-eighth of an inch.

The CPSC reviewed the petition, yet took no immediate action. So Gass concentrated on *filing some 50 patents* related to the technology.

"The institute, based in Cleveland, also said its efforts to examine sensing technology were being *hindered by the "web of patent applications Mr. Gass has filed."*

The industry made it clear that its members weren't prepared to pay up to an 8 percent royalty on the wholesale price of each saw, Gass's asking price.

They estimated it would cost at least $70 million to implement the technology proposed in Gass's petition…

"He wants to force his device on the industry at an unreasonable price," said Art Herold , a Washington attorney for the institute. Herold said it would be improper for the agency to mandate a standard because "it would become a promoter and silent partner" in Gass's technology.
-------
.
.
-------
From http://www.inc.com/magazine/20050701/disruptor-gass.html

Steve Gass : A *patent attorney* who also holds a doctorate in physics…..
Working with *three other lawyers* from his Portland law firm, David Fanning, David Fulmer, and David D'asenzo, he raised $150,000,.............
-------

PS: Oh, and by the way, don't take anything I say here as advice. If you're big enough to own and use a tablesaw you better be big enough to make your own decisions in life. I don't believe in the technology for ME and chose not to buy one for ME. You better make up your own mind.

PPS: I feel creating and propagating an environment of unreasonable fear and paranoia is irresponsible. Particularly when it is done with a personal agenda driven by greed.

Have a nice day…. and buy as many sawstops as you can afford. I mean, what are your fingers worth…..

Oh and hey, don't be sending voodoo curses my way hoping I'll cut off all my fingers just so you can say nah nah nah.


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## mot (May 8, 2007)

I think the only thing makin this horse wince is the force of the concussion from the repeated blows. Climber, I like you brother, I like your posts and the information you provide. In that vane, can you see the irony in your last post?

If you believe in the technology and want to be an evangelist, then rock on man, but don't be surprised to find out not everyone is drinking the same kool-aid you are. (although like most zealots you probably will be stunned and incoherent when you hear that someone disagrees with your position).

I'd say that there is a significant amount of zealots on both sides of this argument.

...ducking…


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## coloradoclimber (Apr 7, 2007)

Tom, Tom, Tom,

There is no man so blind as he who refuses to see…. 

It's all good man. You will notice though that I never start these conversations. But I'm more than happy to be a voice of dissent in the chorus of (what I will call) blind praise over saved fingers and such. For me I made my choice. And normally I'm happy to let the conversation ramble, until it starts winding down 

*CC - The Anti-Zealot-Zealot* Educating the world one unreasonable position at a time


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## JGCW (Oct 2, 2007)

Colorado climber you lost me when you attacked me lableing me a zealot and an evangelist. Just remember I never attacked you.

Too bad. I was just pointing out the poster that called the design stupid.

Your behavior is not what this site is all about.


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## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

Bet we could skin this beast and send it to Thos. Angle and get us some fancy saddles! The all get together, carve a few horses and have one fancy merry-go-round!


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## lazyfiremaninTN (Jul 30, 2007)

CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG AND AGREE TO DISAGREE…...No matter how we beat this question to death it will always fall back to the hardest question ever…........

COKE OR PEPSI ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

We all have an opinion and we should respect that we like what we like for our own reasons and we should not try to FORCE our ideals on others.

Adrian


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## coloradoclimber (Apr 7, 2007)

Hey dude, I wasn't talking to *you*, whoever the nebulous *you* is. My words and opinions are my own and sent out in to the random ether like the mindless ramblings they are. If you like them, you're welcome to them, if you don't like them let them pass.

As for whether my behavior is "what this site is all about" it's a free country, and a personal web site. Not mine, someone else's. If you don't like it, or me, take it up with someone who cares or could do something about it. btw, neither of those people would be me.

Enjoy life, and this site bud, and if something I've said offends *you* personally, don't let it, cause I wasn't taking to *you*.


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## coloradoclimber (Apr 7, 2007)

Oh, and if you think this is much of a disagreement over sawstop you need to do some quick web browsing, you can't turn over a rock without zealots on both sides of the issue scurrying around like cockroaches.

*CC - with his little brown feelers wiggling about*


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## Karson (May 9, 2006)

Thanks Dennis.

No ones opinion is useless. it's their opinion. But I don't know if we are going to change anything by continuing it.


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## Chip (Mar 13, 2007)

The interview I read referred to the filing you quote CC. The inventor went on to say that he thought this argument (8% royalty to high) was just a smoke screen by the large manufacturers to side-step their bigger fear of the "implied" safety of the device. When table saw accidents happen now, court decisions have for the most part, backed up the companies, not the person injuried. The user cuts with the saw at his own risk so to speak. The manufacturers are afraid that this device will change that court thinking… again, because of its implied safety to the user. When that happens the courts could possibly shift suits in the injured persons favor opening the flood gates to massive lawsuits, that the manufacturers would now start losing.

Just pointing that out. Not taking sides or anything. I agree with CC that if ya want one, go buy it, if ya don't, get something else.

Anyway, I think it's interesting that this topic constantly conjures up such emotion everytime it's blogged. I mean, it's not like we're talking about whether or not golf is really a sport. Now that one really ticks me off ;-)


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## coloradoclimber (Apr 7, 2007)

Chip,

I suspect you are correct on multiple points. For most (all ??) businesses it is about economics. Whether they tell you it is or not. For Sawstop, I believe, it is about selling a locked up technology and getting rich. For the status quo saw manufacturers it's about not adding to the cost of the saw and trying to not open themselves to perceived liability (staying rich). (or at least as rich as saw manufacturers are) (perhaps better said instead of staying rich, not getting any poorer).

Your points are way to reasonable to be much fun .

Except for that golf thing, ?? what's that all about


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## JGCW (Oct 2, 2007)

I am also surprised by the emotional outbursts. It's just a table saw not a product that is going to change lawsuits.

There just isnt any logic behind that. If that were true we would all have to drive cars that dont go over 55 or our kids would have to play football in a bubble suit.

And my last positive on SS. My business insurance rates will drop 15%. 

Oh and Chip, I'm a crummy 9 hdcp. and I do consider golf the most difficult sport you can play.


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## coloradoclimber (Apr 7, 2007)

Tom,

Just to make sure there's no misunderstanding, my response above, about the blind man, was a reiteration of your point.

This is far from the first time this topic has been debated, or the first time I've been on this side of the stone throwing contest. it's all good. 

Although I do think that little saying applies to the founders of sawstop. For all of the crying about the big bad greedy table saw cabal I suspect the founders of sawstop are motivated by more that just saving the world one finger at a time.

*CC - just stirin' the pot*


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## JGCW (Oct 2, 2007)

CC I dont think you will find any one that saws SS isnt out to make a buck. They have built a better mousetrap and are doing their best to sell it. Capitalism at its finest. I for one applaud their efforts. Being the small guy running a custom woodworking business, it's not an easy road competing with the big boys.


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## mot (May 8, 2007)

Tennis players.


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## coloradoclimber (Apr 7, 2007)

JGCW,

Uh, selling it is one thing. Forcing it upon consumers through regulatory mandate is another. If it's so great all they have to do is sit back and in no time they will be the one, the only, table saw maker to the world. Why spend all the time, money, and energy pursuing regulatory mandates? Just let the "better mousetrap" sell itself.

Legislative manipulation to secure an unfair advantage in the marketplace is NOT capitalism at it's finest. It's actually not capitalism at all.

*CC - wondering when the only saw left to buy will be a sawstop*


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## coloradoclimber (Apr 7, 2007)

Hey cool, Tom, how did you insert the graphical emoticon?


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## North40 (Oct 17, 2007)

Capitalism?

"[Gass] petitioned the [Consumer Product Safety Commission] in April 2003, asking it to *require* the industry…"


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## mot (May 8, 2007)

CC…I stole the graphic from another site that has beaten this topic bloody.









Now, after reading this some more, it conjures up an image in my mind…lemme see if I can express it:










From the sounds of these discussions though, it seems like we might be able to put together a pretty decent foursome.


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## Chip (Mar 13, 2007)

JGCW - On many of the blogs about Sawstop (and there have been many) it has been pointed out that there is a huge amount of info about the product and it's history. I took an afternoon a while back and slogged through many of the articles and my post was only reiterating what had been mentioned in some of them about liability. Thanks for thinking that I could come up with the liability "theory" but the fact is, I'm only summarizing some of the articles.

CC - The golf comment was just an inside joke to a few of the other LJ's on the site.

Tom - You are too kind. I think a better graphic would be a flame thrower.

Now, to get myself out of this, I agree with everything everyone has ever posted here and on any blog about Sawstop. How's that? Whew.

At this point someone should probably apologize to Huck for hijacking his post. The poor guys recuperating from an accident and here we are meandering on about this and stuffing his e-mail box.

Huck, we apologize and hope you get better soon.


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## TomFran (Jun 19, 2007)

Chip/Mot,

Don't get me started on this "golf being a sport" thing…


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## mot (May 8, 2007)

And now that all the players have arrived….this thread is officially hijacked. Hey, I was watching Federer smash that fuzzy little thing around on the weekend. Was that a re-run or was something going on? It didn't hold my interest much as I was watching all those ladies in shorts hit the little white ball around.


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## JGCW (Oct 2, 2007)

In regards to capitalism,Last I heard SS hasnt broken any laws. They have a right to pursue avenues of the law just as any other human being can. If you feel that strongly about it write your congressman.

CC Where has this product been forced upon me? I bought mine through my cabinet supplier. Right next to a Powermatic 66 and a Jet JWCS.

Your quote of -"Legislative manipulation to secure an unfair advantage in the marketplace is NOT capitalism at it's finest. It's actually not capitalism at all.'

Show me an example where this has happened and I'll agree 100% In the meantime its pure speculation. I am respectful of your opinion of the product. I just dont buy into any coercion for unfair share of the marketplace. There are no laws being broken.

Really guys this is just a discussion. If it's beating a dead horse dont reply. For me discussing this on a message board is new to me, and I'm surprised that this is considered a flame war. I personally havent attacked any one.


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## niki (Mar 26, 2007)

After reading all the posts here and on other forums I think that it's a "lost case"

It's like "I will not convince you to become a Jew and you, will not convince me to become a Christian"...

Everybody has his opinion and will decide…"To buy or not to buy" (this is the question)...

But I noticed, on many forums, when one wants to post a "hit", the subject is "Festool Vs EZ"..."SawStop" or "Metric Vs Imperial"...those subjects are always "Hit" and start, of course, as a very civilized debate but, the snow ball is rolling very fast down the hill and in many cases the Mods have just to close the thread…

I think that by now, every woodworker (even in Poland  knows what is Festool, EZ or SawStop…I think that it's better to leave these subjects alone or better, not to start them because I really cannot see how they contribute to the "knowledge" about woodworking…

And, I don't think that anyone will force it by law, too much money is involved…I think that for the same reason USA is not converting to "Metric"...Just imagine how much it will cost to "Boeing" to convert the production line, drawings, manuals etc. I think that we are talking about 10 digits numbers…

Work safe
niki


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## coloradoclimber (Apr 7, 2007)

now that everyone's here and the party's all started I'm going to leave

*CC - packs up his fuzzy little balls and exits the building*


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## rob2 (Nov 27, 2007)

Back in April, I severed two fingers on a powermatic at a class. I discussed the cut with the instuructor twice.

My wife "suggested" for her piece of mind that I get a SawStop so she wouldn't worry when I was using the saw in my shop alone. If I had been alone when the accident happened, I could have had trouble getting help quickly.

I got the 3hp 220vac single-phase version. I seams to be a very well built saw. And SMOOTH. It is very heavy. Took four neighbors to lift it out of my truck. I also got the 36 in extension. There was a little bit of laminate sticking up. The edge of the laminate wasn't trimmed correctly. I emailed customer service and they sent me a new table in less than a week. I built a moble base for it.

I think the SawStop is a wonderful tool. It is pricey but my fingers cost over $140,000 to reattach. Praise God for two wonderful surgeons.


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## alanealane (Oct 1, 2007)

Rob, I'm so sorry to hear that.

I haven't been woodworking for any more than five years now, so someone SLAP ME if this is not reasonable. I'm not questioning ANYONE'S techniques for safety, but I'm just presenting *another* argument-like we need any more ;-D

I have heard from the Freud Company that the proper height for a teeth of a blade to protrude above the WORKPIECE is 2/3 from the top of the carbide tooth. If this is followed, then the risk of one LOSING A DIGIT is quite low-unless one has the world's skinniest fingers-or they use their fingers as a backer block to avoid tearout!!! Yes, you still can lose a lot of juicy meat if you make contact with 2/3 of each of 40 to 60 teeth. But we all better do our best to avoid that IN THE FIRST PLACE by being as safe as possible-which is not a guarantee that one will always avoid injury-ACCIDENTS DO HAPPEN… just ask rob2 !!

There are toooooooo many posts about shop safety on this site, and if we all just followed it, then the SawStop's main safety feature should only come AS A LAST RESORT TO PREVENT THE COMPLETE LOSS OF A LIMB. Even With a SawStop, you'll still meet 3 to 5 teeth before that electronic sensing equipment has time to react-and that makes for a nice band-aid at least…not fun! I'm not discouraging anyone from buying a SawStop…It's a FANTASTIC TOOL!!! But remember, the 'safer ' a tool is does not give room for woodworkers to be less safe in their practices.

Wow! That horse is really tall!!! LOL


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