# Career Decision



## CAV_Scout (Nov 16, 2009)

As you all can tell by my photo I am in the Army. Going on ten years of active duty and I don't know if I am at a turning point in my life or if I am just getting bored. However, I want to pursue a career in wood working. I am feely a little overwelmed with the thought of it though. I usually get to spend about ten hours in the shop a week. On the weekends I spend my Saturdays in the wood shop on Fort Hood. I am learning a lot of techniques and getting a lot of ideas on this site but I feel like I never have enough time to dedicate to become a true professional. I have another three years left on my enlistment, and I want to start planning now for my future.

So my question to LJ's is: What is the best path to take to become a professional, independent woodworker? I will have the G.I. bill to apply to an accredited university and I have already been accepted Northern Michigan Unuversity but, I don't know if that is the best option. Looking at a lot of profiles here I hardly ever see any mention of college degrees. It is almost as if everyone here is born with there skills when I know that is not the case. What are then best universities (anywhere) to learn the craft? And how does one become an apprentice? Anything will help, and thanks for the help!


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Welcome to LJ. We talked about this a couple weeks ago. check this out and come back with more questions. http://lumberjocks.com/topics/11362 Good luck!!


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## RetiredCoastie (Sep 7, 2009)

Welcome to LJs, you couldn't have picked a better site to join! Thanks for your service to our country and good luck with your new career path!


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## wood247 (Oct 25, 2009)

CAV_Scout,

I am new to LJ's but have in the last few weeks have scrolled through every page of projects and look at the site a couple of times every day. I really enjoy woodworking and would love to make a living at it. Someday maybe I will but for now I read everything I can about woodworking and search all kinds of sites like this one (which by the way is the best I have found), but I know it will be hard to make a good living in woodworking. I myself am in the navy and will be retiring in 7 months after 20 years of service. I would urge you to think LONG AND HARD before you walk away after 13 years of service!!!! You are 2/3 of the way to a retirement check. During the remainder of your time you could pursue all the education you want on woodworking and after your time is up you will have a paycheck to help supplement your dream of making a living with woodworking, not to mention your medical and other benefits.
Just my two cents.
Welcome to LJ's and good luck with your decision.


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## DaleM (Feb 18, 2009)

New York State has a carpenter's apprentice program that is either supplemented or fully funded by the state, not sure which. I don't know what other states have, but some others may have something comparable. The only problem will be after completing your apprenticeship and possibly finding that nobody needs anything built. I know you said you still had a few years to go, so maybe the housing industry will be growing again if that's the way you want to go. Good luck to you.


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## RetiredCoastie (Sep 7, 2009)

I second what wood247 said about going the distance and retiring. I couldn't do the things I do today if I wasn't getting a retirement check from the Coast Guard and VA every month. It would also give you some security until the economy turns around. Jobs are scarce. But you have to make that decision. Good luck in whatever you choose.


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## FirehouseWoodworking (Jun 9, 2009)

Cav Scout,

First, THANK YOU for your service. You and your brothers and sisters in uniform do us proud!

Let me give you my two cents. I retired from the Army in 1996 with 21 years of service. Granted, during my years of service, we were not faced with the wars you probably have. I had Grenada, Panama, Desert Shield/Storm, and Somalia. So, obviously, I had nothing to face like you have. But I would STRONGLY recommend that you consider your options very carefully.

I had a bachelors degree when I got out and was half way through my masters. After retirement, I went into business for myself and did fairly well. But it sure was nice to have that retirement check coming in during the lean times! It allowed me to control my own destiny rather than being a subject of the economy.

I have since moved on to a different career , but I still do woodworking as a sideline. It got to the point where I was more worried about the "business" side rather than the "sawdust" side of woodworking.

It will be more so in your case. The iindustry is suffering greatly due to the economy and the outlook doesn't look good for the near future. Of course, the world situation isn't the greatest either. But to be honest, I miss it and I surmise you will as well. There is a lot from the service that you will not find on the outside.

So think about it. That retirement that you are closer to will really give you a cushion when the time comes. You're probably young enough that you'll have plenty of time to start up that new career. In the meantime, hone your skills and do your market research. When the time comes, you'll be so much better prepared to jump into the deep end!

Best of luck and stay safe.


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## pashley (Mar 22, 2008)

Thanks for your service brother, I"m sure it hasn't been easy.

If it was ME in your shoes, I think I would hang in there to get the retirement check, BUT try to enroll in school dedicated to woodworking; that way, you're being practical and satisfying your "jock" itch, so to speak, LOL. Around here, in Rochester, NY, We have the School for the American Craftsman at RIT - something like that would be great. You can take night courses, and really bring your skill set up to speed in a comparatively shorter amount of time. Maybe you can get the GI Bill to help as well? Once you retire from the military, you'll have that check every month to keep your head about water while your pursue what you love - woodworking.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Thanks for your service.

I will add my voice to those urging you to hang in there till you've made your 20 years. Professional woodworking can be a tough racket with lots of lean times. Having a regular check coming in would put you in an ideal position to have a second career without having to worry about starving to death when business is slow.


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## chunky (Jul 18, 2009)

CAV Scout,
Don't give up your Army career. 26 years in the Navy and I would do it again in a heartbeat. Got my BA while on active duty and did my MBA after I retired. Don't think that the grass is always greener on the other side - I know that feeling that you believe you could be doing something more enjoyable, but you'll never do anything more rewarding/satisfying than what you're doing right now. Fit school into your Army schedule - while on active duty I was always helped by my senior officers to bend schedules, etc to go to school.
Plus a retirement check every month helps a lot - it takes a lot to start and run a business. I have owned two since I retired and could not have done it without that cushion every month. Years go by fast - don't rush them. God bless you and keep you safe
Don


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## rtb (Mar 26, 2008)

JUST SPEAKING FROM EXPERIENCE. Stay and get that check !! By the time you are due to re-up you will have far to much invested to throw away and retirement from the NG/Reserves doesn't cut in until age 60. Try to get an MOS change. Your time in combat arms may be great for promotion but isn't really something that is very salable on the civilian market. Continue to read this site. You will learn more that you can ever guess right here. You will also learn that the transition from very talented amateur to self supporting is a giant and very unsatisfactory giant step. Even when times are better people are cheap, they would rather spend on fast food the hand made quality. Feel free to pm me if you have other questions
RTB-CWIII-USA Gary Owen


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## CAV_Scout (Nov 16, 2009)

Thanks for the advice everyone. There are a lot of veterans here, with a lot of wisdom. Some of you mentioned that you would do the military again if you had to. I am just frustrated with where the Army is at right now. I just don't get the fulfillment that I used to. I know one day the Army is going to end for me, and when that day comes (either 3 or 11 years from now) I want to be prepared. I like the idea of taking classes but I couldn't keep up with the expenses. There is a Woodcraft store in Austin, only about 45 miles from Fort Hood and the Center for Essential Education near Waco, which is about an hour from me. Has anybody ever been to the classes at either of these places? The prices are similar, about $100 to $400 a class. They also provide materials and tools. The only other problem besides the expense is fitting into my schedule. If I make the investment, I want to make sure that it is worth it.


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## jockmike2 (Oct 10, 2006)

Thanks for your service buddy, from an old army vet. I can't answer your question but if I had it to do over I think I would have stayed in. The economy was'nt all that great when I got out in 72, and I could have used the old GI bill to go to school. All paid plus a stipend. I was a fool. But I digress. There are Lots of schools across the country that do apprentice programs. The Northwest School of the Arts. I think Maloof had a school for apprenticess'. I am sure even though he is dead that the school still goes on. But a War is raging right now. Isn't that going to affect you? You're in my prayers as well as all troops.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

There are quite a few programs - some with residency like Arrowmont in Tennesee or Anderson Ranch in Colorado but those probably cannot be paid by GI bill as I don't know that they would meet the accreditation requirements. For the college route - the Northern Michigan looks pretty good. Typically going for a BA degree in Design, and some programs have woodworking emphasis like NMU.
Other possibilities would (Assuming you got leave) to take some of the weeklong classes at Marc Adams, or Kelley Mehler, or some of the other 'Destination' woodworking places. One nice thing is the variety in forms and instructors. The University will have a set faculty, with their own way of working that 'Molds the students'.
Sam Maloof commented in interviews that it was always easy to spot the folks from College of the Redwoods because they were turning out 'copies of the Krenov style'....Not to say that is a bad aspiration.
I like going to Marc Adams. Last summer took turning and embellishing from Graeme Priddle, from New Zealand.
The college curriculum can be a bit like High School…everyone knows to stay away from X instructor for this class, take it next term with professor Y instead and so on.
But on the upside, you will take a lot of other classes to fulfill your degree, and make a lot of contacts which is never a bad thing.
The recommendation I would make is to choose a school that is close to where you would like to live permanently. because most contacts are local. So if you want to live on the west coast, go to College of the Redwoods. East Coast, choose North Bennett Street and so on. In the lean times, it will be your network that keeps you going especially in your early years.

As others mentioned - I would get the retirement and medical from Uncle Sam. If you hang out your own shingle and start woodworking professionally….Your personal savings is your retirement plan, and no Health benefits.

Best of luck.
Dave


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## KayBee (Jul 6, 2009)

CAV Scout, you'll be more than halfway there when your enlistment ends. I had to get out of the Navy at 10 years with a humantarian discharge and still wish I could have stayed in. It feels like I walked out and left everyone. The paycheck would have been nice too. Something else to think about.

As for taking classes, you said that there are local weekend classes you can pick up. Ask if they'll give you an active duty discount. All they can say is 'no.' Good chance it might be yes, think about all the pens for soldiers and shop supplies for soldiers programs going on right now. Pick up some english, history and math type classes on base, they're cheaper and faster than off base. Pretty much every school has these core requirements.
If you go to a 'destination' woodworking school, your stuff does end up looking very similar in style to everyone elses. They also don't teach much about how to earn a living at it. Just kind of repeat things you've already heard about marketing yourself, web presence, etc. ( I went to red rocks community college program.) You might want to look into industrial design type program. Lots of woodworking with metal and plastic thrown in. They force you to develop your own style and teach business end of finding work.

Take care of yourself 
Karen


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## lilredweldingrod (Nov 23, 2009)

CAV Scout
Welcome to LJ. Listen to the guys that have been there and done that. All I want to ad is don't rely on the VA when you get out, get your own health insurance!
You get to offer your life for your country twice, when you enlist and when you go to the VA. Take it from this old Vietnam Combat Vet. And be sure you have a complete file from your service when you decide to get out.

Trust me on this. Best wishes on your decission, Rand Simpre Fi


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## SST (Nov 30, 2006)

Thanks for your service. We all owe you. 
With all the opinions here on sources of woodworking knowledge & skills, there's certainly plenty of directions that you can go, but if you're planning to go into the woodworking business, remember that you can't just focus on woodworking and ignore business.

Many people go into business in their field of passion, have all the technical skills, yet fail nonetheless, because they failed in the business part of the business. Along with being good at producing wood as art, or furniture, or custom cabinets, you need to be good with a profit & loss statement , balance sheet, marketing plan, etc. Remember to take some of the courses that aren't as much fun, too. Good luck where ever you land.


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## Gene01 (Jan 5, 2009)

Cav_Scout,

Many thanks buddy!!!

Gut it out. Get the check. Things will change for the better…hopefully real soon. In the meantime, keep your head down and watch your back. Same advice I give my son, going on 14 years in the service of his COUNTRY.


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## FirehouseWoodworking (Jun 9, 2009)

Cav Scout,

I'm glad to hear most of our brethren here on this site echoing the advice to stay in and gut it out. I read with interest your comments that you are frustrated and you don't have the fulfillment you once did. You see, I too felt much the same. When the Berlin Wall came down followed by the collapse of the Soviet Union, the first thing the politicos did was look at downsizing. After all, we had lost our enemy and no longer did "all guns face east." But I was lucky that I chose to finish it out. A decision that I'll never regret.

While I would never presuppose to understand your personal frustration, I can only make the observation that "it's all the same, only different!"

You will find that no matter where you decide to attend school, whether full- or part-time, you will be better prepared than will your peers. Why? Because you have that instilled discipline to take school seriously. You've been to the school of hard knocks and you will enter a learning program with a focus and drive that most of your peers will lack. For most of them, school is the only "job" they've ever had! Not so with you. And in that line of thought, here's a link to a website that may help you in exploring "military friendly" schools:

http://edu.military.com/gibill/?ESRC=091130SOL_army_v.se

In the meantime, keep your head up. You'll NEVER regret it, I assure you!


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## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

"professional and independent woodworker" Those are two separate skills. One behind the saw and the other running a business. I've seen the best craftsmen bankrupt and broke time and time again. Then I've seen the worst craftsmen grab most of the work at low prices. I don't know about your service, maybe it is a time to change. That is a decision an outsider can't make. If I was being shot at in a strange part of the world and had a family at home that missed me woodworking would sound like a dream. I love what I do, but you got to know the money sucks. Ten years, wow, you have done more than your duty. Thanks!


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Cav Scout,
There are many older non military folks on this site who have found as you have that their employment became boring, unsatisfying and traumatic. Each has wanted desperately to get out of the rat race, but the wise ones stuck it out to retirement so that they had some security to count on.
Many LJ's have college degrees, but not necessarily in anything to do with woodworking. Their passion for woodworking came second choice to a job that brought in the bacon and provided for the future, and woodworking was a hobby where you learned skills that would serve you when you were "Free".
As many have said, the woodworking trade reflects the bad economy and is probably not a good time to make it your primary income. Also consider that being a professional woodworking you might be asked to make things you hate making and become miserable. If you can find a niche market for unique items you make, you may have a better chance at a business.
The best advice I can give you is to listen what the others have said and finish your time so that you are secure. In the meantime get any education you can and all the practice and skill learning you can for when the time comes to venture out.
Finally, we ALL salute you for your dedication and service to us ALL. ALL service personnel are cherished by the members of this site.


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## LesB (Dec 21, 2008)

There has been a lot of great advise given but the best it to stick it out for another 10 years for your military pension. In the mean time build on your wood working education and experience as you can. Wood working has many aspects from cabinet making to custom furniture making. You need to have some idea of which way you want to go. None are easy to break into and you will need some financial resources to keep going the first few years. Short of finding a rich girlfriend your potential military pension is a good source. 
In the mean time take some small business classes which will benefit you regardless of what you decide.
Check out some of the magazines for wood working schools. Fine Woodworking usually has several and some are as short as a week long. You might be able to take them when you are on leave.


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## Michael121 (Jun 30, 2008)

As an Army Vet myself, I got out early should have stayed. Tried the Nat Guard route but after Regular Army that just didn't work out. Too lax to much busy work. Putting cammo nets on the ceilings in a bunker (woo hoo)

As has been said get a degree in design. Then get a hold of everything about WW and read. Practice all the time. You can take some college courses while you finish your enlistment.

Start at cabinet making or some such. Then do some of your own work on the side. At least you'll have a steady job.

Thanks for serving. Welcome to LJ's


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## patron (Apr 2, 2009)

cav ,

hang in there buddy .
i've been a woodworker/carpenter for 45 years ,
i learned carpentry in prison , it isn't free .
nobody would hire me ,
because i didn't have any experience !
the problem i found , is that many jobs are under the table .
many clients don't want to declare the money for tax reasons .
when i started getting my s.s. notices ,
there were many 0's for many years .
as it turned out , i got $ 675.00 a month !
just last 3 weeks i turned 65 .
they took $ 100.00 out for medicaid !
now i have to struggle to keep up ,
and with my age and the economy ,
work is almost a thing of the past .

thank you for your service ,
get all the help you need ,
from education to medical to retirement .

then you can see about your dream ,
at your leisure !

as others have said ,
learn all you can in the mean time .

welcome to LJ's .


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## dusty2 (Jan 4, 2009)

I am responding without reading every one else's comments first. I do not want to allow my feelings to be altered by others writings.

I am retired Air Force and have no regrets except that I wish I had better prepared myself to go into retirement both with a better equipped shop and better educated in related fields of study. As a professional wood worker you are also a business person. As a professional wood worker you are also an engineer. As a professional wood worker you are as a designer. Do I make a valid point? I don't know but that is how I feel.

Hand in there and take full advantage of what you have already earned. Make full use of the time remaining by continuing as you are, learning and experiencing your chosen profession on a part time basis while fulfilling and completing your present profession.

Thank you for your service to this great country. Good luck in your future endeavors. May God Be With You.


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## nmkidd (Sep 18, 2009)

21 years combined service in the Navy and USAF…..don't regret a day of it. Of course there were times that it wasn't all peaches and cream…..and was discouraged..ready to pack it in…....but looking back at it all…...wasn't really that bad…..just a few rough spots. Your over the hill with the end of this enlistment…....my recommendation..reup…...get your retirement and benefits…........take some night classes to prepare for the outside world. I got my BS while on active duty…....tough but possible. Now after years of doing things mostly wrong…am trying to learn woodworking the correct way.

Welcome to LJs…....there are a lot of super folks here with years of experience and tons of woodworking knowledge here at your fingertips. Enjoy.

Thanks for your service to our great country!!


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## joe21 (Feb 9, 2009)

Looks like all the retirees are telling you something. So here is another one.

I retired 3 months ago from the Navy with 23 years. I would have stayed longer but could not pass up a job offer. Being at your halfway point is tough; I know it was for me. And I was getting out for sure until one of my mentors pointed out a few things. I would urge you to stay in as I did my guys that worked with me. Times are tough and I was lucky being in the right spot at the right time. You really understand how much money you make when you get a job on the outside. A lot of your Military money is not taxed. And don't forget about the all the other perks like medical and dental and 30 days paid leave. What you think is a great paying job gets cut down to size when you are taxed on all your income and you have to pay for medical and dental.

And they are right, the check that comes in every month for the rest of your life is very nice…

Good luck to whatever your decision is.


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## GaryC (Dec 31, 2008)

CAV, I hope you listen to the wisdom being sent your way. Lots of older guys here (like me) who have been thru similar circumstances. Notice, all of the vets tell you to complete your time for retirement. Those who didn't, wish they had. Those who did are greatful for the income. Several folks on this site ARE professionals who make their living at woodworking. Some have almost lost, one did lose everything he had because this economy isn't kind to craftsmen. People are willing to pay for junk. If you toss those 10 years, they are gone forever with nothing to show. I appreciate your service. And I know (sort of) what you're going thru. I put in 8 years and left. Mistake. Even though I've had two good careers since and have a good retirement, I should not have quit. Important decisions are hard to make. Hope you really think it thru. Anyway, everyone here will support you what ever you do. Sniff a little sawdust, find your tape and get the job done.


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