# Terrible experience with SCM Group .. what to do?



## mbach123 (Jan 17, 2018)

I recently received a Jointer/Planer and Bandsaw from SCM Group; Sam was the sales person.
When I unpackaged the J/P I found it in a terrible state; laying on its side with a lot of damage. I actually can't even move it as it weighs ~1500lbs.
SCM told me to work it out with the shipping company and has not made an attempt to replace the unit.
Sam, the sales person, told me they could be a "cheerleader" while I worked to file a claim with the shipping company and when I expressed that was not acceptable he threatened to hang up on me. Earlier when ordering Sam assured me they would take care of any shipping issues should they arise.

I repeatedly asked SCM group that I wanted to hear they would make this right. I asked for a replacement unit and provided photos for their claim.

They responded that I needed to work it out with the shipping company and have made no offer to make this right otherwise. I have since asked for my money back and for them to schedule pick up of the inoperable unit.

Giuseppe Riva the CEO was copied on emails with no immediate response.

The purchase was ~$9K.

What should I do?


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## Gilley23 (May 9, 2017)

Do you have proof that they would take care of any shipping claims?

Why did you accept the shipment? Something that large would have had to come by LTL freight, so it's not something that would have been left on your doorstep.

Just playing devil's advocate, sorry to hear about the situation.


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## jerkylips (May 13, 2011)

My thought is that no sales person is going to say, "sure, we'll send you out a new $9000 unit - expect it tomorrow!" To me, the response that they are going to investigate with the shipping company and get back to you is acceptable for an immediate response. If the shipping company is at fault, they SHOULD be responsible for the costs. I would give the salesperson/CEO a chance to investigate the situation and respond back before gettting too worked up. If they come back to you with their answer and that's not acceptable to you, then that's a different story.


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

I think SCM is a reputable company who won't leave there customers hanging. I would start going up the ladder, possibly by asking company headquarters who you should talk to next. This is a real sad situation, please keep us informed.


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

Pictures please.


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## Bill_Steele (Aug 29, 2013)

I feel for you. I'm always a little anxious about buying something big and heavy like a woodworking machine or air compressor that gets delivered to my house by freight truck. If there is some damage or problem everyone wants to pass the buck to someone else and it could be very expensive and/or difficult to return the item. It's very frustrating as a consumer, but I understand why the sellers/distributors do this-any additional interaction with the customer after the sale (for that sale) is likely going to cost the company and/or distributor money (time=money). I don't like it, but I understand their position. Excellent customer service does not always translate into repeat customers.

When I'm in this type of situation I try to remind myself to be courteous and respectful to anyone that I interact with related to this transaction. The problems you are experiencing are likely not their direct fault and/or they are there to try and help you or provide you with information.

Have you contacted the shipping company? If so, are they willing to do anything? What is their position on the damage and their culpability?

Did you buy directly from SCM or through a distributor? Is there a warranty on the damaged J/P?

You should document everything you have done so far and include photos in the documentation. If you decide to contact a lawyer or get the opportunity to make a plea to someone like the CEO-then having all the information documented in chronological order will help them understand what transpired.

Good luck and I'll be hoping for a positive outcome for you.


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## CaptainKlutz (Apr 23, 2014)

Sorry to read about issues?

IME - Damaged freight shipments via commercial carrier are painful.

First - Do not shoot messenger: The company selling the product damaged in transport typically has no liability on paper; Regardless of what they say. They delivered the product to the shipping company they picked, which you agreed to use when you signed the purchase contract. So the damage dispute is between you and shipping carrier. 
if you signed for the damaged shipment and accepted delivery (fine print always says you inspected and found in satisfactory condition), then need to follow instructions from SCM: file a damage claim with transportation carrier!

Process to correct hidden "accidental" shipping damage is sort of like being in an automobile accident? 
IE - No one wants to admit there is a problem, nor pay for the mistake, and there is lots of paperwork and delays figuring out what went wrong (while trying to avoid fraud).  
So only after the trucking companies insurance has reviewed the damage/loss, determined corrective measures, and approved payment; will the equipment supplier be paid to correct the problem.

Highly suggest making a face to face visit to trucking companies local terminal for quickest turn around on a claim. Phone calls seem to fall on deaf ears, unless you are regular customer for carrier.

Best Luck.


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## mbach123 (Jan 17, 2018)

The equipment needed to remain in the packaging to get it home.

The CEO did reply to me after I asked for assistance and stated that they were "not sparing any effort resolving the issue". I hope that means they are going to take care of the situation. That's all I really want to hear but they have immediately put the burden on me to work it out with the shipping company.

They are able to file a claim unlike me according to the shipping company. I immediately provided a report to the shipping company with pictures. I have stated and have supported their efforts for a claim.

We shall see.


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## tealetm (Jan 20, 2016)

If you paid on you credit card, report it to them and stop payment. Once that happens people tend to move faster towards a resolution.


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## jonah (May 15, 2009)

Why on earth did you accept delivery of something that is damaged? If you get a freight delivery, you should inspect the thing six ways from Sunday to make sure it's in good shape. If it isn't, you refuse the deliver and they take it away.

If it didn't come off the truck on its side and damaged-looking, what happened in between when it did come off the truck and the picture?


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## mbach123 (Jan 17, 2018)

I wasn't aware of the damage. The packaging concealed the damage. 
It was only after getting it home did I unpackage it to see it on its side.
For whatever reason it was not delivered to my home and instead I had to pick it up from the distribution center at the freight company. When I discovered it was being sent to a location 2 hours away I petitioned the person sending it and was told "that's something you should have worked out with your salesperson." So I went with the flow.



> Why on earth did you accept delivery of something that is damaged? If you get a freight delivery, you should inspect the thing six ways from Sunday to make sure it s in good shape. If it isn t, you refuse the deliver and they take it away.
> 
> If it didn t come off the truck on its side and damaged-looking, what happened in between when it did come off the truck and the picture?
> 
> - jonah


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## Ripper70 (Nov 30, 2015)

> If you paid on you credit card, report it to them and stop payment. Once that happens people tend to move faster towards a resolution.
> 
> - tealetm


Exactly what I was going to suggest. If you paid via AmEx, or some other major CC, call SCM and tell them that either they make it right by yesterday or you will immediately tell the CC company to stop payment.

That'll light a fire under their butts, I guarantee you.


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## mbach123 (Jan 17, 2018)

CC is now in dispute with the hope of using it as leverage towards a fair resolution.


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## bndawgs (Oct 21, 2016)

Definitely an unfortunate event. But the fact that you signed for it and accepted it from the shipping company is going to making things more complicated than they should be. You should have opened it there to inspect it. Technically, I can see where you could be stuck with the damaged machine because who's to say that it happened during the initial shipping? Not saying that's the case, but SCM and the shipping company could potentially say you damaged it while hauling it two hours.


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## mbach123 (Jan 17, 2018)

bndawgs, valid point. 
You're not allowed to unpack items at the dock. I noted the packaging and took photos at the time of pick up. There are also laws that deal with this specific issue where the lack of unpacking doesn't make you automatically responsible for undiscovered damage.

The specific activity of re-packaging the item during shipment according to SCM tells the story of what happened.

If this were delivered to my home a lack of inspection would be a different story.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

> I wasn t aware of the damage. The packaging concealed the damage.
> It was only after getting it home did I unpackage it to see it on its side.
> For whatever reason it was not delivered to my home and instead I had to pick it up from the distribution center at the freight company. When I discovered it was being sent to a location 2 hours away I petitioned the person sending it and was told "that s something you should have worked out with your salesperson." So I went with the flow.
> truck on its side and damaged-looking, what happened in between when it did come off the truck and the picture?


Theory: The shipper knew it wasn't right, and avoided delivery to your door knowing you'd reject it there and they'd be stuck driving it back to the warehouse. Instead, they reduced cost by having you come for it. Then you (mistakenly) signed for it and took it off their hands anyway! First laughs are theirs, but yes, they have to make it right. What a PITA.


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## Hammerthumb (Dec 28, 2012)

If the vendor had contracted the freight company, the responsibility is on them. If you arranged the freight and paid the freight company directly, then you would need to take up the issue with the freight company.
I agree with Smitty. If the vendor had promised door to door delivery of the item, I would not have gone to pick it up. Especially since it was 2 hrs away. There will now be a question of when the item got damaged. In transport to the LTL facility, or on the way to your house.


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## mbach123 (Jan 17, 2018)

Hi Paul,

SCM made all the shipping arrangements.

SCM didn't back out of door to door delivery; it was conveyed to me by SCM shipping department that I would have to go to a distant location for pickup with a too late now tone.

Due to the condition of the re-packaging there has not be any question damage occurred before I picked up the equipment. Had I recognized the equipment had been re-packaged I would not have accepted it.



> If the vendor had contracted the freight company, the responsibility is on them. If you arranged the freight and paid the freight company directly, then you would need to take up the issue with the freight company.
> I agree with Smitty. If the vendor had promised door to door delivery of the item, I would not have gone to pick it up. Especially since it was 2 hrs away. There will now be a question of when the item got damaged. In transport to the LTL facility, or on the way to your house.
> 
> - Hammerthumb


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

I would not have disputed the card except as a last resort, it often prompts a hostile relationship between you and the vendor. The credit card company may require all go-between to be in writing which will add weeks to a resolution. SCM could take a hardline that you received the machine in good order and it was damaged by you. And if the shipper agrees and has your signature, it will now be on you to prove that you did not damage the machine while transporting it yourself. *EDIT*, you posted while I was posting. It's good you got pictures and documented they rewrapped the machine, that plays in your favor.


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## mbach123 (Jan 17, 2018)

Hi Rick,

The relationship went sideways when Sam, my salesperson, threatened to hang up on me when I called him out on SCM's unacceptable response to burden me with working it out with the shipping company. Only after specifically calling out the CEO to help and btw the CEO was on the previous email chains did I hear anything different than work it out with the shipping company.
BTW the security cameras at my home will show that when I unboxed the J/P it was on its side. Again SCM does not dispute that I received the equipment in a damaged state. I have ample photos showing incongruity with their stated shipping practice at the time I picked up the equipment.


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## Knockonit (Nov 5, 2017)

Seems Sam , might need a moment of humility training. 
email crusade. i say, sent it out, lets see an address and let him know the potential damage in sales he is or could cause by being a do….bag


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## Carloz (Oct 12, 2016)

Unfortunately there is very little you can do.
I was in a similar situation. The company knowingly shipped badly damaged equipment repackaging it in new boxes before shipping. foolishly I accepted the delivery based on the state of the packaging and was never been able to make the merchant do right.
It was expensive and I contacted a lawyer, who advise that I would easily win a lawsuit. The money to pay for the lawsuit were about $10000. 
But all I would get from the lawsuit is a piece of paper that says the merchant owns me money, with no means to actually collect.
A credit card company could be of some help but they often require you to send it back for your own money.
If you are in the samestate as the merchant you can file a small court case, which is cheap , but see above.
And legally and sadly the shipping risk is on the buyer not the seller.
Did you contact the shipping company?


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## jonah (May 15, 2009)

The value of the machine takes it out of small claims territory (at least in every state I've lived in). In most states, the cutoff there is ~$1000. Higher than that value and you have to file a normal lawsuit (which costs thousands of dollars for a lawyer to prepare), not a very easy small claims court suit which you can do in plain language in twenty minutes.

I'd agree that disputing the charge with the credit card company should be the last resort. I'd save that for if nothing else worked, otherwise things will escalate very quickly.


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## Carloz (Oct 12, 2016)

^^^^^
Small Claims Court Limits for the 50 States* $10,000, except that a plaintiff may not file a claim over $2,500 more than twice a year.

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/small-claims-suits-how-much-30031.html


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## msinc (Jan 8, 2017)

Who or what exactly is this SCM outfit??? If you don't mind my asking…so I don't make the mistake of dealing with them…I've heard enough.


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## Carloz (Oct 12, 2016)

Do you think that Sam have any personal interest in not dealing with the issue? Usually it is the company's policy to screw the customer and get as much profits as they can now.

Reminds me of Sprint cellphone company whose every single employee seemed to have a goal to cheat you for a few more $$$



> Seems Sam , might need a moment of humility training.
> email crusade. i say, sent it out, lets see an address and let him know the potential damage in sales he is or could cause by being a do….bag
> 
> - Knockonit


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## Knockonit (Nov 5, 2017)

I suspect the salemans does have sway, especially if he is a top seller, if not then no fowl, but being on his case would enlist his attention to truth the next time he sells something with an empty promise. Not a fan of allowing mistakes or stupid comments to go unnoticed, if allowed, then they become common, instead of occassional.
jmo
be a slacker if one chooses, ok with me
Rj in az


> Do you think that Sam have any personal interest in not dealing with the issue? Usually it is the company's policy to screw the customer and get as much profits as they can now.
> 
> Reminds me of Sprint cellphone company whose every single employee seemed to have a goal to cheat you for a few more $$$
> 
> ...


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## MJCD (Nov 28, 2011)

SCM is one of the largest woodworking machinery manufacturers in the world… simply stated. An Italian company, they are worldwide. Their heavy-industrial line is the SCM brand; their light-industrial brand is Minimax - which is still considered several steps above Powermatic. Minimax competes well against Felder - for Jointer/Planers, Sliding Table Saws, Shapers - and other top-tier brands. Their MM16 is considered one of the best Bandsaws made. With this, SCM should be quick to support your interests, and complaint.

'Sam's' actions should be near-firing material: SCM doesn't want this bad press; the machine cost is insignificant to them; whereas, the bad press is potentially big lost dollars. I agree with going above the corporate ladder, now, and be polite, be pointed, be aggressive about it.

SCM chose the shipping company, and paid them - a contractual relationship. Be Aggressive.

MJCD


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## Marlow (Feb 1, 2011)

Might help if you posted some of the pictures you took at time of pickup.


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## Smirak (Dec 24, 2016)

My two cents as a Supply Chain Manager…

It really depends on what your purchase contract/purchase order/etc with SCM stated. Was door to door delivery negotiated and signed for by both parties? If so, I'd start there and ask why door to door delivery was not provided. If not, what was agreed to by both parties. If you were charged for door to door delivery and were "forced" to pick up at a local terminal (regardless of the distance traveled), you should argue that first. Now, I can argue that SCM will tell you it didn't leave their warehouse in that condition and you have no proof to refute their argument. Your only recourse right now is with the shipping company. That said, what did your contract say on Incoterms? How was it supposed to be shipped (FOB, FCA, EXW, etc…)? If I knew the incoterms it was to be shipped against, I can help you with the liability and when/who accepts when/where…


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## mbach123 (Jan 17, 2018)

I was not forced to pickup from terminal but rather it was unclear to me where I need to get the equipment.

I've attached a photo from the dock. I inspected the parcel as stated without opening and noted the condition on the paperwork; if this were a home delivery I could have opened the box and would have rejected the parcel.


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## OnhillWW (Jan 10, 2015)

I have S & R experience and my deepest sympathies go with the OP.

That said, just a heads up to all who may travel down a similar path - like it or not , 99.9 % of the time the liability for damage goes to the shipper BUT once you sign and accept the delivery you own it. You can't make the seller responsible for shipping mishaps. You HAVE to inspect the shipment, ANYTHING that looks awry such as two types of shrink wrap, a damaged pallet, parts not sitting square to the pallet, punctured or crushed boxes is cause to reject the shipment. Even if you went and picked it up the same rules apply. Sometimes you can sign the receipt documents with a note describing a concern that you see and this gives you some standing to make a claim after the fact or as we did many times we told the driver we would not receive the shipment w/o opening and inspecting the contents. More often than not they would agree to this.

I am not unsympathetic to the OP but I'm afraid it's the rules of the road. Just as if a giant tree from your neighbors property falls onto your property, whatever sits on your property is 100% YOUR responsibility, clean up damage et.al Doesn't feel fair but it's the way it goes.


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## mbach123 (Jan 17, 2018)

Found some shipping docs..
I got this documentation two+ weeks after I paid. They only sent it to me when they shipped out the equipment.

SUBJECT: SCM SHIPING GUIDELINES
We at SCM Group North America strive to provide the best possible care to our customers during shipment of
our machines.
Effective, 4/1/17, all LTL shipments are FOB Origin (Carson/Duluth) and NOT delivered unless specified on the
Machinery Acquisition Agreement (MAA) or sales contract. This will pertain mainly to dealer orders.
You will now be able to utilize your own carrier or may continue to use SCM preferred carrier. If using your
own, an appointment is required for pickup with minimum 24-48 hour notice. Request for pickup must be
provided in writing before 12 noon EST to allow for processing and a copy of your carrier's Bill of Lading.
Logistics will then schedule the appointment and provide a pickup number. Failure to have pickup number can
result in a refusal of the pickup.
The following information provides an explanation of freight terms in the below diagram. SCM will no longer
assume risk (except where indicated below). If Receiver assumes risk, claim is filed by receiver after
notification. See additional details below.


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## John_ (Sep 23, 2013)

> SCM is one of the largest woodworking machinery manufacturers in the world… simply stated. An Italian company, they are worldwide. Their heavy-industrial line is the SCM brand; their light-industrial brand is Minimax - which is still considered several steps above Powermatic. Minimax competes well against Felder - for Jointer/Planers, Sliding Table Saws, Shapers - and other top-tier brands. Their MM16 is considered one of the best Bandsaws made. With this, SCM should be quick to support your interests, and complaint.


^^^^^ This

I posted in the "Hammer K3 Winner, PM2000 or Sawstop?" thread that I had problems when I bought a machine from MiniMax. It was one of their combination machines (sliding table saw, shaper, jointer/planer) and upon delivery, I discovered the shaper spindle/cartridge was actually rusted in place. It would not move and my salesman (not Sam) wanted me to get a bottle jack and force the spindle up! I sent then numerous pics of that and some other problems, their support was not much help and I finally reached out to their then CEO Michael Kahn who has since moved on. One of the first things I did was file a dispute with my credit card and why I told my salesman this he basically threatened me that he would have SMC legal contact me….

I am sure you are very upset right now (as I was) but it worked out in the long run. Make a very comprehensive list of everything that was damaged, and also include that the jointer tables are going to need to be checked or adjusted. Give them 30 days to make it right, which is reasonable, but they will never be able to meet that deadline because in reality, some of the parts are going to have to be shipped from Italy. Also keep in mind that when you buy an industrial machine like this - your probably going to have to do all the labor yourself, unless you live very close to one of their service centers. Also, they don't care about scratches, rust, gouges, etc. It's an industrial machine.

They ended up agreeing to take my machine back for a full refund - including shipping. You probably have cut up the cardboard, as did I, so I went down to the local box store bought a bunch of 2×4/s and a sheet of 1/2" OSB, and crated everything back up and took it to the shipper's hub.

Once the dust settled and I was clear of that purchase I thought about buying a Hammer instead. But, I really believe that SMC/MiniMax makes a better machine and I actually bought another one from MiniMax. Unfortunately for me, bad luck struck again - and this machine had a lot of shipping damage. For example, they package the expensive aluminum fences UNDER the machine. It worked out - they replaced all the parts and at this point a couple of years later I am happy with it. Keep in mind, Italy to S Cal is quite some distance…

I was actually banned from SawMillCreek because everytime someone was interested in purchasing a MiniMax or SCM machine and asked for opinions - I would recall my experience. So keep in mind, that they like to delete 'negative' posts and most of the stuff you read over there is just all positive. (Also my **shole salesman was a frequent poster over there)


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## MJCD (Nov 28, 2011)

Well…

That does want to make me reconsider the Minimax J/P purchase - something I'm well down the road on… Felder AD941 here I come.


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## bigblockyeti (Sep 9, 2013)

Well, I for one am sold on never buying a new SCM or MiniMax machine. Too bad as my family is getting ready to move and I'm planning on going from my current 410sqft. to ~1250sqft. and am planning on a few big purchases within the next year. Thank you Sam.


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## mbach123 (Jan 17, 2018)

John_H's post gives me hope that they will take care of me.

I had read that someone had an issue with their Felder delivery so I chose to work with SCM/Minimax.

I do have an attorney that can handle this for me and will hand this over to him if I think my efforts are a waste of time.

I will keep folks posted.


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## CaptainKlutz (Apr 23, 2014)

My condolences to OP for hassle you are experiencing. 

That dock pic: Wow & Ouch. That pallet/tool took a bad fall somewhere. I would have argued that "can not open at dock" rule does not apply to damaged shipments that have been repackaged by carrier as they have already damaged/opened the package. Would have enabled inspection, and refusal at carrier?

SCM is reputable company. If given time to work out details, I would hope/expect you get resolution. 
+1 for be patient & kind, but be aggressive.

IMHO - Would have saved CC company dispute as your last resort. It is same as hiring a lawyer to punish the supplier into submission. My first attempt to show them I mean business would have been to send them a link to this thread. They will cringe to know that LJ wood working community is waiting for and watching the outcome. 

Worked for several companies that made semi-custom mfg equipment (not woodworking). Once a tool is booked/sold, reversing the sale is total PITA. You mentioned asking for a refund, this is equivalent to asking for a "divorce" from your wife, and IS going to take longest time to resolve. Odds are, they won't refund your money, until they know what they get from carrier.
You will likely find equipment companies more amenable to a resolution that involves them keeping your money, where they send you a new tool, while trying to keep you as a happy customer? Never know: They might even throw in a couple inexpensive upgrades/addon's to show that they want your future business. At a minimum, sales/marketing should buy you lunch, offer a free hat/shirt, or some other small token for letting them keep sale. I know I would in their position.

Best Luck.


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## John_ (Sep 23, 2013)

Part of the problem is to most woodworking 'enthusiasts', a machine like a Hammer/Felder or MiniMax/SCM is a 'dream machine' - quite a step up. Unfortunately, to these companies these are industrial machines and a $10k jointer/planer is just a drop in the bucket to them.

I don't think it is not that they don't care, things happen and in the industrial world all that really matters is if it works or not. On top of that, MiniMax does not have a very good web presence to begin with. I still think they make great machines but they are not very good at 'hand holding' when problems come up and a lot of time they end up shooting themselves in the foot.

Another problem, at least for me, was I purchased my machine just from what I read and saw on the internet. I never got to see one in real life. Fortunately, I communicated strictly via email - so everything was in writing. For example - I referenced a pic on their website and asked my salesman would my machine look exactly like that and include everything in that pic. He replied yes, and I later found out some things like the large handwheels are not included - I think they only give you one. (that came back later to bite him in the butt along with some other 'untruths' when things went south)

Note - my main problem with the first machine was not from shipping damage, it was a problem with the machine itself. Here is a pic of the shaper cartridge that was rusted/frozen in place and would not move. About the only fix would be to replace the entire shaper cartridge (not that easy to do)









Here is how I crated it back up - I actually liked this machine, It was a LAB300 and I had concerns going to their next biggest machine (CU300) because they did not have any more LAB300's in stock. But it worked out









This is one of the 'precision fences' that was shipped underneath the replacement machine (CU300)









Another fence (the miter guage) where things were rubbing together. Does it work - ya, it works fine, but I didn't pay for that and they ended up replacing it









CaptainKlutz brings up a good point. I was so pissed off at MiniMax over the way they initially handled this (especially my 'salesman') that I didn't want to have anything to do with them and all I wanted was my money back. I then realized I was cutting off my nose to spite my face because again, I believe (and still do) they make a great product and they cut me a pretty good deal on a replacement machine.

Come on SCM - step up to the plate and do the right thing and make this customer happy


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## Smirak (Dec 24, 2016)

OP…FOB Origin indicates that you are the legal owner of the goods as soon as the seller ships them. In this instance, the seller has no LEGAL obligation to accept return of the goods. Note that I said LEGAL in caps…the reason I said that is because there is not a LEGAL obligation from the seller for anything, however, many times, there is a moral/ethical obligation from the seller in that they "don't want to see their name drug through the mud"...

As for who will file the claim with the shipper, it would depend on whether the FOB Origin was prepaid or collect…If it was prepaid, you could argue that the seller (SCM) would need to file the claim as they paid the freight (though that might fall on deaf ears). If it was collect, you would be responsible for filing the claim as you paid the freight. A different way to look at it…if it was prepaid, then SCM organized the freight….if it was collect, then you organized the freight…

What did your sales contract or MAA (as posted above) state for delivery? You were under the impression it was a door to door delivery, but the above makes reference that isn't possible unless it's in your MAA or sales contract?


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## TungOil (Jan 16, 2017)

> I was not forced to pickup from terminal but rather it was unclear to me where I need to get the equipment.
> 
> I ve attached a photo from the dock. I inspected the parcel as stated without opening and noted the condition on the paperwork; if this were a home delivery I could have opened the box and would have rejected the parcel.
> 
> ...


Just to share my experience with SCM- I just took delivery of an MM16 in November. Your packaging looks really light weight compared to how my saw was shipped. It does however look like factory packaging (same 'fragile' stickers, etc.). Strange.










Smirak is exactly right about FOB Origin. You own it when the equipment leaves the SCM dock and you will need to file the claim with the shipper. I'm sure that is not what you wanted to hear but it is the case. SCM should be able to help with the process however. By chance did they use the same terrible LTL company Saia to ship your machine also? Those idiots could not find my saw at the distribution center after I drove over an hour to pick it up at the terminal. I had to go back the next day. I think the common issue here may be the shipper not SCM (although I'm surprised Sam did not treat you more professionally, he has been very good with me) so be sure you place the blame where it belongs!


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## Smirak (Dec 24, 2016)

As a follow-up…it would have been hard for you to have rejected the shipment (even at the dock) on an FOB Origin shipment as you legally own the product already…You reject and it goes into limbo-land somewhere…Seller has no LEGAL obligation to accept the return and shipper has no LEGAL obligation to return to seller or keep at their facility. They could have stored it at their facility and then charged you storage for it…


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## John_ (Sep 23, 2013)

That was my recollection also. You own the machine once it leaves SCM/MiniMax

Both of my machines came on a pallet covered with cardboard like in the OP's pic. That crate looks really nice, although as I recall the bandsaws are shipped on their back to begin with which would make them pretty unstable


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## mbach123 (Jan 17, 2018)

It was shipped with Saia which is a common-carrier under Yellow and the equipment was likely touched multiple times which is why I was advised to let SCM file the claim. That and Saia said only SCM could file a claim.

Smirak, I was told exactly as you stated by two local shipping experts.

I guess the bottom line is that I tried to get a J/P from SCM and now I have problems with which SCM has not provided any resolution.


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## John_ (Sep 23, 2013)

What kind of 'damage' are we actually talking about - do you have any pics?


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## mbach123 (Jan 17, 2018)

Bent/broken bolts lots of gouges and scratches. I've not been able to upright it to see how badly the input panel is broken. I also don't really want to move until I hear what's going on with returning it.


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

"SCM told me to work it out with the shipping company and has not made an attempt to replace the unit.
Sam, the sales person, told me they could be a "cheerleader" while I worked to file a claim with the shipping company and when I expressed that was not acceptable he threatened to hang up on me."

I would have liked to hear "that" conversation. 
I've never had someone threaten to hang up on me while discussing a problem.
Makes me kind of wonder, who set the mood?

I'm not pointing fingers so please don't take offense, I wasn't there. 
But a lot can happen because of bad conversation.


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## mbach123 (Jan 17, 2018)

Sure
When he started backing out on responsibility I spoke firmly and confidently with no foul language that this was unacceptable. In earlier conversations when I specifically asked if there were to be shipping issues he said they would take care of things.


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## John_ (Sep 23, 2013)

You are going to have to do something to assess the damage.

I hate to say it, but what I am seeing so far is cosmetic - they are going to send you a can of spray paint unless you can articulate some real damage that would warrant replacing the entire machine

Remember - industrial machinery doesn't have to look nice but it does have to work

I looked closer at one of your pics and I can see the same, sh*tty plastic corner bracket they used with my machine. MiniMax doesn't like to actually bolt their machines to the pallet for some reason, they like to use those plastic corner brackets to kind of keep the machine in place just by it sheer weight










Here is what mine looked like after it disintegrated









It's clearly the shipper who is at fault - the machine should have been shipped standing upright with the corner brackets holding it in place. Something happened that it fell over and they repackaged it. Somewhere they should have a record of this. The question is - is the machine damaged enough to warrant a replacement? Also - when you ship something UPS and it gets damaged, UPS will often say it wasn't packaged properly and is the fault of the shipper. I think the same thing applies to SCM. Not bolting a heavy machine like that to the pallet isn't the right way to do it.


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## Marlow (Feb 1, 2011)

Wait: you're kidding, right? This was a cluster-fck of a shipment. Did the OP say he bought a "scratch and dent" unit, or did he buy a new unit? No way I would accept this unit: SCM should ship a replacement unit, provide a "sorry we fcked up" gift basket to the OP, and fight with the carrier on their own nickel. End of story.


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## mbach123 (Jan 17, 2018)

It was a new unit


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## Smirak (Dec 24, 2016)

> Wait: you re kidding, right? This was a cluster-fck of a shipment. Did the OP say he bought a "scratch and dent" unit, or did he buy a new unit? No way I would accept this unit: SCM should ship a replacement unit, provide a "sorry we fcked up" gift basket to the OP, and fight with the carrier on their own nickel. End of story.
> 
> - Marlow


Not disagreeing with your statement, but if I was SCM, and I shipped it FOB Origin, I would have a hard time admitting fault. I'd also have a hard time saying "we f'd up" as clearly, they didn't. As stated earlier, the LEGAL responsibility falls to the buyer as soon as it's shipped. Sucks, for sure! I'm on the side of the OP in that he didn't get what he paid for (IMHO).


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## John_ (Sep 23, 2013)

> Wait: you re kidding, right? This was a cluster-fck of a shipment. Did the OP say he bought a "scratch and dent" unit, or did he buy a new unit? No way I would accept this unit: SCM should ship a replacement unit, provide a "sorry we fcked up" gift basket to the OP, and fight with the carrier on their own nickel. End of story.
> 
> - Marlow


I am not kidding, I am being realistic. You haven't been following along. When you buy an industrial machine like this, there is no "*Accepting this unit*". It's yours, it became yours once it left their facility. The shipper is the one who f_cked up.

You ever see or hear of a brand new car getting damaged on the way to the local dealer? Do you think they send those cars back to the factory? It's called life. Sh* happens. SCM has probably shipped too many machines to count, but every now and then something is going to happen. It's called luck of the draw. It happened to me and it happened to the OP. Do you think maybe that major cold spell that we just went through may have had someting to do with it?

As I pointed out earlier, I would like to see SCM/MiniMax step up to the plate and make the customer happy. It has been my experience that they will make it right - but at this point, they don't even know what the true extent of the damage is because the machine is still on it's side. Give it some time, how long ago did he actually take delivery?


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

I sold a piece of heavy equipment once, my responsibility ended once it left my doorstep via freight. I made sure of it. All the heavy equipment I've used was leased with a service contract. A little more expensive but they deliver, they set up, they are responsible for making sure it works. And when it wears out, they take it away and replace it. Not sure if that's possible with woodworking machines.


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## Marlow (Feb 1, 2011)

I am quite familiar with INCOTERMS and how shipments like this are handled in industry. This is not industry: its a hobby woodworker buying a very expensive machine from a company that wants to sell to this market segment. Using the "reasonable man" standard: the buyer has met his contractual requirement when he provided his credit-card number. It is incumbent on the seller. after being paid, to supply the goods to the seller without damage.

You may be right: "FOB origin" shifts the liability from the seller. How many hobby woodworkers even know what FOB stands for? Perhaps the wording should be: "You, the buyer, are rolling the dice, once the machine leaves our loading dock: are you, the buyer, OK with that?"


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## John_ (Sep 23, 2013)

The OP posted on another website that "*my final invoice stated FOB Duluth at the to*p"

He also wrote that he received a memo with a chart "that *illustrates who assumes the risk, and it is the receiver in this case*. The memo also indicated "SCM will not assume the risk unless otherwise stated and the receiver is responsible for filing claims. "

Again, I am not here to defend SCM - but at least give them a chance to try to make it right.

*How many days has it actually been since the machine was delivered*?


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## MJCD (Nov 28, 2011)

After reading this, I'd be hard pressed to purchase a Minimax (SCM) machine.

Having said this, there are similar horror stories about Felder (Hammer, Felder, & Format brands) customer service - I have some experience with them. It is unimaginable that you put out $10k, you're left with an unacceptable machine and thankless hounding ahead of you of Sales personnel and shipping companies.

Minimax - your actions just lost you a tremendous amount to goodwill, and a probable sale to me.

Everyone, Do Take Care.
MJCD


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## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

SCM has to determine if it's their fault or shippings. At this point SCM can make good.

If its shipping then SCM is out…..


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

> After reading this, I d be hard pressed to purchase a Minimax (SCM) machine.
> 
> Having said this, there are similar horror stories about Felder (Hammer, Felder, & Format brands) customer service - I have some experience with them. It is unimaginable that you put out $10k, you re left with an unacceptable machine and thankless hounding ahead of you of Sales personnel and shipping companies.
> 
> ...


I don't let any reviews sway me away from buying a quality machine that I know is good. 
I'm confident in my ability to handle a situation and get any problems rectified.

Reviews and comments about a company and/or their service are usually one sided, normally coming from the commenter and the full story is never known. Take a review for what it's worth.


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## mbach123 (Jan 17, 2018)

I had heard the Hammer/Felder stories too.

Candidly, I'm not familiar with shipping practices on large pieces of machinery. Every purchase I've made in the past that was damaged on arrival was taken care of by the seller.

I'm just a guy like you all.. I maybe dumber because I can't easily resolve this situation.

Discussion with SCM started this Monday. CEO responded Wednesday afternoon stating "We are not sparing any effort resolving the issue" but I've heard nothing since.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

Nothing you can do now except wait or get a lawyer, you played all your cards.


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## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

This is a very bad experience. At least with other companies like Grizzly when there is shipping damage, Grizzly takes care of it.

I will be watching this thread and hope it gets worked out. Good Luck


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## Smirak (Dec 24, 2016)

Again, I'm on the side of the OP, but since my business is supply chain management, I have a skewed view I guess. To the poster that said this wasn't industry, I beg to differ. This was a unit that was in excess of 1200lbs (I believe it said something like 600kg). This was a unit/units in excess of $9k. This was not a lunchbox planer that the op went and got off the shelf at Home Depot. This is SCMs industry…to buy and sell machines…be it to the hobby woodworker, or the professional cabinet shop.

I feel for you, OP…I don't believe that all have to be educated on the shipping terms. I also don't believe it makes anyone an idiot for not knowing.

My advice? Ask for a copy of the bill of lading provided to Saia Motor Freight from SCM. I'd be happy to take a look at it for you from a supply chain perspective and see if I can give you some advice?


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## unclearthur (Jul 4, 2013)

All I can say is that any manufacturer who sells retail and continues to try to hide behind "FOB Origin" or shift responsibilities to shippers or pretend in any way that its not their responsibility to deliver a working product to the customer (who paid for a working product, not a broken one) ...... will eventually be put out of business by Amazon.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

> All I can say is that any manufacturer who sells retail and continues to try to hide behind "FOB Origin" or shift responsibilities to shippers or pretend in any way that its not their responsibility to deliver a working product to the customer (who paid for a working product, not a broken one) ...... will eventually be put out of business by Amazon.
> 
> - unclearthur


When you get into industrial suppliers there is a lot less hand holding… Unless you buy a service Contract. Generally the emphasis is on the quality of the machine vs the competition, and sometimes the quality of the service contract.


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## Smirak (Dec 24, 2016)

> All I can say is that any manufacturer who sells retail and continues to try to hide behind "FOB Origin" or shift responsibilities to shippers or pretend in any way that its not their responsibility to deliver a working product to the customer (who paid for a working product, not a broken one) ...... will eventually be put out of business by Amazon.
> 
> - unclearthur


I doubt amazon will ever put a business like SCM out of business. It's not their business model. That said, we don't even know if the OP got a unit that's non-working. Everyone here is jumping to the conclusion that it's a broken, non-working unit. The OP even stated he hasn't even unloaded off the pallet yet to check if it's inoperable. I don't agree that SCM is trying to "hide behind FOB Origin". That's their delivery terms.


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## mbach123 (Jan 17, 2018)

SCM knew I didn't know much about this type of shipping and I asked for help.

me: I'm not so familiar with this type of shipment could you please describe how this all works?
them:
1. You will give me the okay to release the machines to ship via email.
Looks like you have two machines in two different locations so they will arrive at different times.
2. Once okay given, I will send you shipping info. It will have all the info you need (ship date, delivery date, tracking sent later, etc…)
3. Thats it. All the details you need will be provided as to how to offload and instructions on receiving it.

Let me know if okay to release?

I followed all directions.


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## mbach123 (Jan 17, 2018)

Here is a portion of the bills for the two machines I ordered. Like other it states FOB… I had no idea that was a shipping term at the time; it was just listed.


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## TungOil (Jan 16, 2017)

> Here is a portion of the bills for the two machines I ordered. Like other it states FOB… I had no idea that was a shipping term at the time; it was just listed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The English translation of 'FOB Duluth, GA' is basically 'ownership and responsibility for this item transfers from SCM to the buyer at the loading dock in Duluth, GA'.

The good news is that the shipment was insured. That is your recourse but you usually need to file a claim within just a few days through the shipper. Move quickly so you can get this resolved.

EDIT: because of the shipping terms, any help you get from SCM is being done by them as a courtesy to you, the customer. Consider it a favor and treat it accordingly. I'm sure that is not what you want to hear, but those are the facts based on the terms of your agreement. I spent 15 years in purchasing dealing with issues like this frequently. Very few people outside of lawyers, supply chain folks and purchasing folks understand these terms so don't feel bad about it. But it does underscore why it is important to read and understand everything in a contract you sign, for your own protection. Don't even get me started on indemnity and liquidated damages…..


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## mbach123 (Jan 17, 2018)

I didn't sign anything from SCM. After I had paid I got the bills with the FOB stuff on the bill at top.

I called Saia day 1 to file a claim as per instructed by SCM but Saia said I was not able to file the claim and that only SCM could do that. So I filed a report that SCM could use. I then got advice that SCM should file the claim so I stopped trying to file a claim and conveyed to SCM that Saia had said only SCM could file a claim. Then SCM said Saia was wrong… SCM did acknowledge they could file a claim but wanted me to do so.


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## AZWoody (Jan 18, 2015)

The English translation of FOB Duluth, GA is basically ownership and responsibility for this item transfers from SCM to the buyer at the loading dock in Duluth, GA .

The good news is that the shipment was insured. That is your recourse but you usually need to file a claim within just a few days through the shipper. Move quickly so you can get this resolved.

EDIT: because of the shipping terms, any help you get from SCM is being done by them as a courtesy to you, the customer. Consider it a favor and treat it accordingly. I m sure that is not what you want to hear, but those are the facts based on the terms of your agreement. I spent 15 years in purchasing dealing with issues like this frequently. Very few people outside of lawyers, supply chain folks and purchasing folks understand these terms so don t feel bad about it. But it does underscore why it is important to read and understand everything in a contract you sign, for your own protection. Don t even get me started on indemnity and liquidated damages…..

- TungOil
[/QUOTE]

It can get so twisted and convoluted but even on FOB, the shipper will not deal with the receiver because the shipping was initiated and paid for by the seller. Many times, it's set up to just pass the buck and keep liability in limbo.

It doesn't show the name, but I would guess the customer is SCMI as they more than likely have a shipper's account, not the buyer and because of that, the shipper will only deal with SCMI. For payment, it did say paid by credit card, which is odd as SCMI would have some kind of account to be billed. I would not think they would use the buyer's credit card unless there was full authorization to do so and so the shipping would be completely under the buyer's name and so the shipping company would be talking to him, and not SCMI.

I hope that makes sense but things like this are purposefully made complicated.

One thing that does make me raise my eyebrow in terms of the buyer is he said that he had asked the salesman if they would cover any damage if something happened in shipping. That's usually something I don't ask someone unless they would have specifically mentioned FOB and told me what it meant. It just makes me think that FOB was explained to him and acknowledged.


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## Carloz (Oct 12, 2016)

OK, it is very obvious from the photo that the item was knowingly repackaged after the damage. My bet would be that this was done before the shipping.



> I was not forced to pickup from terminal but rather it was unclear to me where I need to get the equipment.
> 
> I ve attached a photo from the dock. I inspected the parcel as stated without opening and noted the condition on the paperwork; if this were a home delivery I could have opened the box and would have rejected the parcel.
> 
> ...


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

What is Ex Factory delivery? Did you buy this through Ex-Factory?


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

Ex factory means that all shipping after Duluth is sole responsibility of the buyer.


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## mbach123 (Jan 17, 2018)

After reading about issues with Hammer/Felder I brought up shipping to the salesguy and simply wanted assurance if an issue were to occur. FOB was never explained to me.


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## AZWoody (Jan 18, 2015)

> After reading about issues with Hammer/Felder I brought up shipping to the salesguy and simply wanted assurance if an issue were to occur. FOB was never explained to me.
> 
> - mbach123


Was it all on the phone? I purchase almost everything through freight as I do not live close to any machinery dealers.
I try to make sure everything is done via email and usually only talk on the phone unless there's some kind of details difficult to explain in writing. 
That way, if there is a problem, everything's in writing.


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## ArlinEastman (May 22, 2011)

> I think SCM is a reputable company who won t leave there customers hanging. I would start going up the ladder, possibly by asking company headquarters who you should talk to next. This is a real sad situation, please keep us informed.
> 
> - Fred Hargis


What Fred Said. Go up the ladder and if that does not work leave comments on their website with pictures and then go to your local county or state BBB and then States Attorney. Also if you put it on your credit card cancel the payment and that will get their attention


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## redlee (Apr 11, 2016)

When I pick up a crated tool or anything I check it before I accept it. I have been dealing with an appliance store for over 20 years and they open the box have you and the loading dock person to inspect and sign off,if you dont want it opened they have you sign a waiver saying its accepted as is. I doubt this was done prior to leaving SCM's plant and AFAIC its the shippers fault.


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## unclearthur (Jul 4, 2013)

> When you get into industrial suppliers there is a lot less hand holding… Unless you buy a service Contract. Generally the emphasis is on the quality of the machine vs the competition, and sometimes the quality of the service contract.
> 
> - RickM


Agreed …... but, From SCM's website:

12" combined jointer & planer

The surfacing-thicknessing machine for the D.I.Y. woodworkers and the craftsmen joineries.
Fine Woodworking named our award-winning 12" jointer/planer as "Best Overall" in its category. This machine offers premium power and precision in a compact size for any shop. With long jointer tables, and sturdy fence, this machine is a quality product, made in Italy, for a value price. Find out why one of our best-selling units may be perfect for you.

When you start pitching to "DIY woodworkers" and promoting yourself in Fine Woodworking, then you are appealing to retail customers / consumers, so you have to accept what comes with that and either provide what they would reasonably expect (an undamaged machine delivered) or, if you are really intent on not taking any responsibility past your factory door, then disclosing that to the customer in a meaningful way (not just printing "FOB whatever" on the bottom of an invoice).

The starting point for this is that the buyer is paying money to the manufacturer for i) an undamaged machine and ii) delivery to his door. The manufacturer is arranging the shipping. There is no reason that the shipping risk / liability is transferred to the buyer unless he agrees to it. And in retail / consumer sales, that is not a standard condition that can be assumed.


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## mdhills (Mar 12, 2011)

Sorry to hear of the stress.

Did Sam send you the "Freight Claim Tips" with your other paperwork? I got this when I ordered my MM16 a couple of years ago. It had some advice on inspections, hidden damage, etc., and all of the things that I don't normally think of for routine consumer purchases.

Matt


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## Carloz (Oct 12, 2016)

^^^^^
You would make a terrible lawyer. It is all good thoughts but they have very little in common with reality.


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## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

I think if it were me, I would get a lawyer. I just would not know what to do to get this resolved. A letter from a lawyer to SCM and the freight company requesting a resolution might get things moving.


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## Markespen (Feb 7, 2017)

Previous posts are correct. FOB, or "free on board," transfers ownership at the designated place. From a legal perspective, the most important issue is when the shipping terms were communicated. Contract terms only become operative if they are communicated prior to performance of the contract. If SMC provides the shipping, warranty and other material terms prior to payment, they become part of the purchase agreement. However, simply sending an email or a bill of lading with the machine that includes their standard terms (or terms special to this particular transaction) means nothing unless the OP knew of and agreed to them before paying.

Did SMC take the money before the email was sent that described shipping terms? If so, the FOB means nothing and they were obligated to deliver you a working machine at their risk. If the OP had an opportunity to read the email containing the shipping terms before payment was processed and didn't cancel the order then there is a little bit of a gray area. SMC is still likely on the hook because the OP is not a merchant of goods of this kind (a retailer in the business of selling this kind of machinery).


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## John_ (Sep 23, 2013)

The "order Confirmation" was in post #68


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## Marlow (Feb 1, 2011)

Mark: That last sentence caught my attention: would you mind expounding on that point? Thanks



> Previous posts are correct. FOB, or "free on board," transfers ownership at the designated place. From a legal perspective, the most important issue is when the shipping terms were communicated. Contract terms only become operative if they are communicated prior to performance of the contract. If SMC provides the shipping, warranty and other material terms prior to payment, they become part of the purchase agreement. However, simply sending an email or a bill of lading with the machine that includes their standard terms (or terms special to this particular transaction) means nothing unless the OP knew of and agreed to them before paying.
> 
> Did SMC take the money before the email was sent that described shipping terms? If so, the FOB means nothing and they were obligated to deliver you a working machine at their risk. If the OP had an opportunity to read the email containing the shipping terms before payment was processed and didn't cancel the order then there is a little bit of a gray area. SMC is still likely on the hook because the OP is not a merchant of goods of this kind (a retailer in the business of selling this kind of machinery).
> 
> - Markespen


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## mbach123 (Jan 17, 2018)

I provided my credit card information over the phone and then received an email later with the bill/order that has FOB. This bill/order may have arrived a couple days later as it was dated 12/5 and I got it 12/7.

FOB was never brought up or explained to me, it was just a description item. Why would anyone want FOB?


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## Mike_D_S (May 3, 2012)

If you keep in mind these Incoterms are primarily used in business to business transactions, then it starts to make more sense why there is this complex system around materials delivery.

Not only do these terms define risk, they also define who handles customs (import/export duties), etc. So let's say I'm a company buying a million gallons of some material to be shipped out of the country, the FOB makes sense as the seller gets it to the boat and the buyer then sorts the shipping, customs and offloading at their receipt port.

But for business to consumer, I agree it's not super applicable.

Actually, for the supply chain guys on here, FOB is usually directly application to vessels (thus the free on board) would the buyer here actually have some room to dispute the terms considering there was no waterway portion of the freight?

Thanks,
Mike


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

I think it would have been much quicker to keep dealing with scmi and get the salesman on your side. Everytime you add another party, such as credit card company or lawyer, you're adding time to the process and in the meantime are losing productivity and space. The longer this goes on, the loser is the customer. At the end of the day, you took possession of a damaged machine, you own it. Stand that thing up, plug it in, and make a list of the damage and see what scmi will do.


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

Ricks post makes a lot of sense to me. I don't like this aggressive approach some say to take. You can catch more flies with honey then vinegar 
Good luck


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## bigblockyeti (Sep 9, 2013)

You can catch a surprising number of fruit flies with red wine vinegar, just saying.

I will say that Rick's approach does sound like the best initial move, with the caveat that results need to be seen throughout the process within specific time frames.


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## Smirak (Dec 24, 2016)

@MikeDS…

As it relates to domestic shipping, FOB means is equivalent to FCA (for FOB Ship Point or FOB Ship Point, Freight Collect) or CPT (FOB Ship point, freight prepaid). The fact that FOB refers to Sea or Inland waterways isn't really applicable here, so in my opinion, the OP can't use that as "justification".

Just because this is a business that sold to an individual (vs selling to another business) is irrelevant in this case. However, as stated many times before, it's up to the buyer to file a claim with the shipping company as this was shipped FOB ship point, the seller is only responsible for getting it to the ship point.

Kevin


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## Marlow (Feb 1, 2011)

FWIW: I did a quick check of the usual retail outlets for the garden variety machines that are purchased day in and day out (e.g. Powermatic/Jet/etc). Could not find specific references to any FOB shipping terms, nor could I find any policies that reflect the transfer of ownership defined by FOB origin.


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## Smirak (Dec 24, 2016)

http://www.fmlfreight.com/freight-101/freight-terms-of-sale/

Here's a good site that explains DOMESTIC freight. FOB as it relates to Incoterms refers to international shipping and FOB incoterms 2010 (as well as 2017) is for sea/inland waterways only.

At the end of the day, a company is free to specify whatever freight terms they want. It's up to the customer to negotiate said terms…be it a hobby wood worker or a commercial business.

When your "garden variety" stores (woodcraft for example) buy from Jet (for example), they have shipping terms defined from the supplier…could be FOB.

As for specific policies, it's not a specific policy for Incoterms…it's commercial LAW.


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## Carloz (Oct 12, 2016)

It says "insurance included". Why don't you file a claim then ?


> The "order Confirmation" was in post #68
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## langski93 (Dec 31, 2008)

Given the current state of uncertainty that you are in, my first move would be to suspend payment with the cc and advise SCM that payment will be released once you both agree to a plan of resolution. If they used a preferred shipper than they have much influence to get this resolved quickly even if you paid for the shipment. I would also ask Sam to do a conference call with his manager and offer this compromise: You pay again for shipping and get a brand new machine delivered to *your door where the invoice reads *"FOB Destination"* which means the sale is not completed until the product arrives at your loading dock or garage or shop. Before you sign for it, inspect it. They remove the original machine. I know you don't want to pay for shipping again and believe me they dont want to send another machine, but that is why its a compromise. At the very least it shows others that you are being reasonable and gives them less reason to dig in or ignore you. Best of luck!


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## Markespen (Feb 7, 2017)

In my opinion, the minute you gave them your credit card number a valid contract existed in which you agreed to pay for the machine in exchange for them shipping the machine to you. A party to a contract cannot simply add their own terms to a contract unilaterally. The fact that FOB whatever shipping point was stated in a subsequent email does not make it part of the contract just because they want it to be. Material contract terms must be agreed upon before the contract is formed.

It matters whether the transaction is business to consumer vs. business to business because of the Uniform Commercial Code's (UCC) applicability. Sales between merchants (generally people or entities who regularly deal in specific merchandise) are treated differently by the code. This would likely include a deal between a machine manufacturer and woodworking business. Merchants are generally not allowed to add terms to consumer transactions after a sale is made. While each state makes some changes to the UCC when it is enacted, major portions of the UCC rarely vary from state to state.

This is a legal perspective. In reality, the cost of enforcing legal rights in this case would be more costly than the item itself unless you went to small claims court. Even then, you'd have to go to court in the county/state where they are incorporated or do regular business.

I hope SCM makes this right because they should and not because they are legally obligated to do so.


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## mbach123 (Jan 17, 2018)

Update:

SCM Group called this morning to offer my money back or a replacement unit. I asked for a replacement unit. The replacement unit may take 90-100 days to get here, hope it wasn't a mistake selecting for a replacement.

I did ask for home delivery to avoid shipping issue.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

That's great.


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## mbach123 (Jan 17, 2018)

Agreed. Their offer was much appreciated.


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## bigblockyeti (Sep 9, 2013)

Were they made aware of this thread in anyway that you know? Did they define what will happen differently this time to guarantee such problems don't arise again? Do you have to drive all the way to a warehouse again or are they shipping it all the way to you?


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## mbach123 (Jan 17, 2018)

I did not point them to this thread and they did not allude to it. 
I did ask for home delivery. I did not ask if their shipping practice was going to be changed.


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

Now that's good customer service IMHO.

Congrats mbach123.


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## woodbutcherbynight (Oct 21, 2011)

You buy a $9000 piece of equipment, it arrives damaged and the seller isn't all on top of getting it resolved and a new unit in place asap. Yeah that sounds like good CS. With social media being what it is today this could have been blown to Kartrashian proportions. Considering the CC company can reverse the charge and leave them hanging, or you get a lawyer involved with demand letters and such that can be used to drive the media frenzy with any replies not in a positive light.

In the end the situation in this case gets resolved minus too much drama. The 90-100 days might make me have pause for accepting getting another one, but if this works for you all is good. Leave this thread open for updates when your new undamaged machine arrives.

A lesson for all is to get to know shipping terms and what you can and cannot do when dealing with shipments that are boxed up like a coffin.


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## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

I am glad this is working out for you. It has not been easy.


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## Carl10 (Feb 24, 2017)

I would suggest, if it is not already, to get that offer in an email. 3 months+ is a lot of time and a lot can change on their end. If they don't/won't send you the email then send them an email confirming the conversation and what was promised. It sounds like they are doing the right thing, but today you have to CYA.

Glad this is moving in the right direction.

Carl


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

I'm so glad to hear that, congrats to you…and to SCM for their response.


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## jonah (May 15, 2009)

Glad to hear it's (hopefully) going to work out. I'd echo Carl and get everything in writing in an email. Tell them you just want to confirm what they said on the phone so there's no chance of a miscommunication.


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## AZWoody (Jan 18, 2015)

Might want to confirm warranty starts new also when the replacement arrives. 
There are times when warranty starts at original point of sale. I've had that happen a few times on small items, not tools but always good to ask to make sure. 
If the new one takes 100 days, you'll be out 4 months or so of warranty period if something breaks when using it.


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## Markespen (Feb 7, 2017)

I would not let them hold your money for the next 100 days. You may not be able to contest the charge with your credit card and therefore lose the best leverage you have. SCM should charge you at the time the machine ships. I understand that some vendors may require a deposit upon ordering but full payment 100 days prior is too much and is dangerous.

I would then re-order and get every term, especially warranty and shipping, in writing prior to paying.


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## langski93 (Dec 31, 2008)

That sounds like good news. I would make sure that Sam's boss knows that your posting has 108 replies here at Lumberjocks. I took delivery of a new MM16 Bandsaw last year, and have been preparing to purchase a jointer/planer. Your post sent up a big warning sign, and they should know their customers watch how they take care of their customers.


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## Manitario (Jul 4, 2010)

Glad that they've (hopefully) made it right. I posted this thread last week on their Twitter feed…no response from them lol.


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## woodbutcherbynight (Oct 21, 2011)

Guy down the street had a legit complaint about a company. After weeks of getting the run around he put a 4×8 plywood sign up. Sent them a snail mail letter explaining the sign comes down when you make it right. A company rep came out to get the sign down. So the guy showed him the issue. Two days later the problem was resolved and he took the sign down.


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## John_ (Sep 23, 2013)

I just read some posts on the Felder Owners Group about shipping problems

This is a $40k Kappa 400 (Sliding Table Panel Saw) they shipped.

At the freight terminal









Crate was so big he had to hire a truck to move it from the freight terminal


















Someone also suggested you can get freight insurance from a company like this
http://www.insureyourfreight.com/

example - $17k policy was $87


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## AZWoody (Jan 18, 2015)

> I just read some posts on the Felder Owners Group about shipping problems
> 
> This is a $40k Kappa 400 (Sliding Table Panel Saw) they shipped.
> 
> ...


If I saw it like that, I would have left it at the terminal and had it sent back to Felder.


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## ShaneA (Apr 15, 2011)

They need a new crate builder! lol


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## bigblockyeti (Sep 9, 2013)

The uncrated pictures look OK despite the obvious damage to the crate. Was there any damage sustained? I too would be very tempted to leave it at the terminal with $40K hanging in the balance and a pretty cracked up crate.


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## MJCD (Nov 28, 2011)

A recent example…

Two weeks ago I purchased an Oliver Spindle Sander - a mid-industrial unit that typically goes into active cabinet shops and commercial millwork environments; by intent, it is much more than I need; though, I didn't want to take a chance on the widely-variable reviewed Jet floor-standing unit.

The unit weighs 360 lbs, boxed. Shipped from Seattle WA to Baltimore, MD, the shipping time was about 8 days. When delivered, the freight driver and I inspected the damaged package, with clear indication of a damaged unit - oil leaking inside the protective plastic wrap encasing the machine. I refused the delivery (so, it is a different situation than the original thread, above).

Oliver Machinery was great about it. I learned that, pre-shipment, some equipment suppliers both inspect the unit and take photos of the unit and the shipping carton. In my case, Oliver cataloged their photos, and both mine and the driver's photos, and presented them to the freight company as proof of shipment damage - Oliver will process the claim - and are expediting a new machine to me - from refusal of delivery to expedited re-shipment within an 8-hour timeframe. My guess is that the original machine was dropped by a forklift during truck changes.

I know my situation does not fully match mback123's - though, I'm glad there is a good road forward there; but it does pull-back the veil a-bit on the process and support levels.

MJCD


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## MJCD (Nov 28, 2011)

John_H:

Please let me know your thoughts on the Kappa once you've had to time to take it through its paces. I'll be looking at Martin's 60C and the Felder line this Spring.

Thanks.
MJCD


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## TungOil (Jan 16, 2017)

> I just read some posts on the Felder Owners Group about shipping problems
> 
> This is a $40k Kappa 400 (Sliding Table Panel Saw) they shipped.
> 
> ...


That is a pretty flimsy looking 'crate' for such a heavy piece of equipment.

In contrast, and to tie this back to the original thread, my minimax MM16 was shipped in a near bullet proof crate:


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

There's one of those SCM 41 J/P machines on ebay
right now, apparently a return or something. Dunno 
what the story is.


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## John_ (Sep 23, 2013)

> John_H:
> 
> Please let me know your thoughts on the Kappa once you ve had to time to take it through its paces. I ll be looking at Martin s 60C and the Felder line this Spring.
> 
> ...


No No No, sorry for the misunderstanding - A beautiful machine, but it's not mine. I was just relaying what I saw in a post on the Felders Owners Group

Which reminds me - there two 'groups' dedicated to these higher end woodworking machines. They are on Yahoo Groups and I find them extremely hard to read, but if you are interested here are the links. As I recall, you have to email an admin to get permission to access the group

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/felder-woodworking/info

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/MiniMax-USA/info


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## splintergroup (Jan 20, 2015)

> That is a pretty flimsy looking 'crate' for such a heavy piece of equipment.
> 
> In contrast, and to tie this back to the original thread, my minimax MM16 was shipped in a near bullet proof crate:
> 
> ...


My MM16 (circa 2008) was shipped in a far less substantial crate, basically just a wood frame with the table removed and set inside. It arrived fine, but had the potential for disaster.

The only real problem was somehow the bandsaw had been hit with a firehose of cosmoline while inside the plastic wrap of the crate. My guess is the shipping company carefully wiped the outside of the crate clean 8^)


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## MJCD (Nov 28, 2011)

John_H

Thanks, and the mistake is on my end… you were clear in your original post…

I was a member of the Felder's Owners Group (FOG) for awhile - I own a Hammer Bandsaw - the down-market Felder offering; and I joined the group at that time. By the way, the Bandsaw performs well, and is perhaps the most used piece of equipment in my shop. I opted out of the FOG after about a year: the discussion were quite valuable - these people work wood!; however, Felder corporate didn't act upon the users' concerns and comments - a point with which I had first-hand experience. As I'm in a major shop re-fit (upgrade), these discussions on SCM, Minimax, Felder, Martin become background information for manufacturer selection.

Everyone, Do Take Care.
MJCD


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## tomsteve (Jan 23, 2015)

if this is the way it was when you opened it up, it was packaged for shipment on its side. does SMC typically package machinery on its side?


> The equipment needed to remain in the packaging to get it home.
> 
> The CEO did reply to me after I asked for assistance and stated that they were "not sparing any effort resolving the issue". I hope that means they are going to take care of the situation. That s all I really want to hear but they have immediately put the burden on me to work it out with the shipping company.
> 
> ...


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## derekcohen (Jul 15, 2007)

I've just come across this thread.

Very pleased that it was resolved in the end.

I just want to point out that we on the fori just tend to hear about the problem cases, not the happy endings. In my case, I have three Hammer machines (K3 Winner sliding tablesaw, A3-31 Combo planer-jointer, and N4400 Bandsaw), purchased over a period of 7 years. These were delivered by the Felder agents to my workshop, after each machine was assembled at their warehouse, then crated up again and trucked to me. At my workshop, the machines were offloaded and installed in the position I chose (double garage workshop), and set up to perfection. When the K3 was delivered, about 3 months ago, the agent also checked my bandsaw and adjusted the band. If all this was not enough, about 2 weeks after the K3 was delivered and installed, I contacted Felder as the sliding table was about 0.5mm too high at the operator end of the saw. This was enough to affect accuracy (square) when ripping against the rip fence. They came out the next day to adjust it. Free of charge. All this amazing service makes you cry!

This is the level of my local service, and I suspect it is similar across Australia. Makes you want to buy more Hammer/Felder just because .. 










Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Marlow (Feb 1, 2011)

With that level of customer service, its no wonder Australia is called the Land of Oz!


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## DonBroussard (Mar 27, 2012)

Likewise, I'm glad to hear that the OP is getting the issue resolved. I suspect that, if I had ordered something similar, I would have been lost about the shipping process. Thank you, mbach123, for posting your story and for the respondents for educating me about shipping terms, legal implications and customers' rights and obligations in the shipping process. Hopefully, I will remember this if and when I need to order a piece of heavy, expensive machinery.


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## TinTurtle (Feb 1, 2018)

mbach123, I sympathize with you. I am currently experiencing a similar situation with SCM Group that I detailed in a thread over on Woodnet. The assertions that you are somehow responsible for the machinery because shipping is FOB are incorrect. Its important, particularly for people who are receiving shipments in the future, to understand the terms of their purchase. The FOB term can have multiple meanings, do your research and understand PRIOR to making your purchase.

SCM Group states in my email - "PLEASE THOROUGHLY INSPECT MACHINE AND NOTATE ANY DAMAGES PRIOR TO SIGNING BILL - DRIVER MUST WAIT. Pictures from all sides of the machine should be taken and SCM Logistics notified immediately with a detailed description of those damages."

Obviously its not my machinery at that point, otherwise they couldn't care less. Any communication advising you to refuse shipment upon seeing signs of damage also conveys that it is not your equipment. You can't refuse what you own, and in fact could be liable for storage, return charges, damage that occurs during the return etc. I work for a company that takes in shipments of very expensive motorcycles, Slingshots and Can-Am Spyders. We understand freight.

Moving on to my situation, I ordered a Minimax SC3 that arrived on 1/3/2018. Fully enclosed crate, the equipment was not secured properly inside the crate (no straps, little plastic feet and some wedges) and this resulted in the table saw shifting slightly inside the crate. The plastic wrap was completely intact except for an end that had rubbed against the crate and eventually caused that panel to come loose.

I called for advise, waited, we eventually accepted the shipment. SCM Group never called back. And I soon learned that is common practice. Ignore calls, ignore emails, blow off everything to minimize showing any loss on the balance sheet until they are reimbursed by the freight company. Their customer service rep flat told me they have claims that are over a year old.

This policy is from the top. Just because the CEO is on your email chain (he was on mine too) means nothing. Its his policy. I was informed by SCM that they instituted this policy because their shipping losses were too great. So rather than try something like strapping down the machinery (mine was not) they decided to just pass the problem off.

So, I could dispute the card payment, and I may yet. My main saw appears to be undamaged. I have never fired it up because I don't have my parts. Like others, SCM Group packs the fence and other parts under the saw. When it moves, they get crushed. But at the moment, here I am looking at a piece of equipment I planned on lasting the rest of my life, from a company whose customer service is incredibly bad. I left a one star review on Facebook last Friday, on Monday they responded with an email saying they felt it was inappropriate. At least they responded. I fired back an email with dates of every phone call I made and the emails I sent. Their response? Crickets. But they have said they will send the parts free of charge - just not when they will send them. So for now I am looking at my 1300 pound door stop and thinking about what it would be like to cut a piece of wood. In the middle of a house remodel.

Imagine if this was a commercial operation. Its only a few months, just tell everybody to go home


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## TinTurtle (Feb 1, 2018)

I am excited about the saw. I have some plans for it including trying to modify it with an Incra fence and a mobile base. Thats part of the reason I just didn't nuke the deal, I believe I will eventually get my parts. Sam was also my sales rep. I like the guy, he helped me understand what was possible with the saw. He uses a similar model, sent me some nice documents and pics to help figure it out. He is not an SCM Group employee. Granted he wasn't very useful in getting me my parts, but I don't think there is much he can do. I think internally the reason I am ignored is nobody can do anything so they just don't want to talk to me. The CEO has set the rules, and screwing the customer, especially the small fish, is company policy.


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

I followed your thread at Woodnet, as well as this one. Though I've been contemplating a couple of things from SCM, I've now abandoned the idea I would purchase from them. I have an MM16 (bought used) and love it, so much so I considered other tools, but no longer. Their response in both of these cases is not what I would have expected for such expensive tools.


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## TinTurtle (Feb 1, 2018)

Their commitment to contact my by 2/2 with info on expected ship dates for the parts was empty. No phone calls, no email.


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## TinTurtle (Feb 1, 2018)

Still nothing, never a word, never an email since before 2/2. I finally disputed the credit card payment and decided to move on to other solutions.


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## mbach123 (Jan 17, 2018)

Small update:

The jointer/planer is still at my home, SCM Group and I are trying to figure out how to send it back. Saia, the shipping company, has not been able to perform a pickup due to the size of the unit and would like me to get a forklift. I'm working on that.

I finally stood my S600P bandsaw, while it's a little banged up with a gouge and missing paint in a number of places the major issue is that a pin that supports the upper wheel is missing. This part will need to come from Italy I was told.


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

I've lost track again…they've agreed to take the saw back?


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## TinTurtle (Feb 1, 2018)

> I ve lost track again…they ve agreed to take the saw back?
> 
> - Fred Hargis


Negative, they promised to ship the parts at no charge the end of January and contact me on 2/2 with the details. Never a word, no phone call or email. I sent another email with no response. I am disputing the charge with the credit card company for the amount of the parts that were damaged plus the tax. Next is trying to find a way to either repair the damaged parts or replace them with something else. The saw will run, I have no idea if its accurate but I am gambling it is. Everything seems to move smoothly.


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## Marlow (Feb 1, 2011)

A point of clarification: its a bit of a challenge to follow this thread because there are two (I hope I have this right) different individuals with two different issues, both with SCM/Minimax. I think its great that both victims are keeping us updated: but it does get confusing.


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## mbach123 (Jan 17, 2018)

It's June 6th and I don't have a replacement.

Email from April 20th 2018
"Attached please find updated order 6101800219 for the FS41 Elite. The new machine is due to you by the beginning of May. We will notify you once your machine is ready to ship. Thanks."

A few days back I reached out because I'd not heard anything.

I got this "...I have looked into your account, and it seems as though there is no payment necessary. I tired to contact you regarding this shipment, however I didn't have an email address nor a telephone # for you…"

okay I'm ready to stop with this. now


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## AZWoody (Jan 18, 2015)

> It s June 6th and I don t have a replacement.
> 
> Email from April 20th 2018
> "Attached please find updated order 6101800219 for the FS41 Elite. The new machine is due to you by the beginning of May. We will notify you once your machine is ready to ship. Thanks."
> ...


All I can say is "Wow"...


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## Ripper70 (Nov 30, 2015)

> "...however* I didn t have an email address* nor a telephone # for you…"
> 
> - mbach123


Wait…what?


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## mbach123 (Jan 17, 2018)

> "...however* I didn t have an email address* nor a telephone # for you…"
> 
> - mbach123
> 
> ...


 ^ Exactly

Venting:
I just don't know what to think about this operation.
E.g. I was missing a pin for the SCM bandsaw, one that holds the upper wheel and they sent me a replacement pin from Italy, took months, but when I got it …. it was a wheel … and I must have talked to 3 people about the order. One guy kept calling at 5am with a private number and when I finally answered I heard children in the background and he asked if I was the guy that needed a new pin and that he just needed to verify that I was the guy that needed the pin. WHAT?!

Dan at SCM group and Nelson have helped me.


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## Ripper70 (Nov 30, 2015)

> I just don t know what to think about this operation.
> 
> - mbach123


I do. But I won't bother saying. It'll only add to your discouragement and frustration. I've been following this thread for the past six months and can't believe how this has been playing out for you. How can a professional craftsman that relies on professional service from his tool supplier be put through this and still stay in business. Considering all the pros that read these boards, you'd think some rep at SCM would be tripping over himself to set this straight and help to burnish their reputation.

I've suggested contacting the CC company and having them stop payment. I know you've gotten them involved already but how are they assisting you, if at all? I know that AmEx will cover quite a bit including extending the manufacturers warranty for an extra year. They do help. I've been down that road with AmEx and had them resolve an issue with a major kitchen appliance just last month. Granted, it wasn't a $9K dollar industrial machine but they covered everything and made me whole in the end.


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## TinTurtle (Feb 1, 2018)

I wasn't going to reply to this because I don't want to confuse anyone about my situation versus the OP. My situation was detailed over on Woodnet. I involved the credit card company but basically it just served to put some pressure on them. I was told my parts would ship when 70% were available or no later than April 27th. The parts arrived on my door on 5/2, the latest possible moment before I could cash in my claim for $2k. It really served no purpose as I had already fabricated parts and sought replacements from outside vendors.

Best of luck, they understand nothing but brute force and an unwillingness to back down. Sam, my original salesperson has been a huge disappointment, and useless. He couldnt care less, never contacted me or followed up in any way. Not a phone call, not an email - nothing.


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## CyberDyneSystems (May 29, 2012)

Wow.


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## ohtimberwolf (Dec 17, 2011)

I'm sad for both of you! It should never be this way but in today's world I'm not too surprised.
May the 'Bird of Paradise Fly Up Their Nose" larry


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

So…how did this all turn out?


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## mbach123 (Jan 17, 2018)

I understand that they are working to send out the replacement bandsaw and j/p now.


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## mbach123 (Jan 17, 2018)

Update: Still no Jointer/Planer. Saia called to schedule a delivery last week and then the agent recalled that they couldn't get the equipment off the truck. I immediately reached out to SCM group and so far no response.


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## DBDesigns (May 29, 2018)

Please tell me you used a credit card to buy this. If so, get them involved by disputing the charge. You will be amazed how fast that will get their attention.
Good Luck.
Tim


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## builtinbkyn (Oct 29, 2015)

I had a similar experience a long time ago. Used my Amex to pay for a real estate course that ended up being nothing more than a way to dump their boilerplate nonsense on the enrollees at a high dollar amount. This also involved signing what amounted to a contract - the enrollment form. In NY a person has three days to reconsider - not always, but in many "consumer related" contracts - gym memberships, etc, things like this the course fall in to.

I called the people running this thing informing them I reconsidered, but they didn't want to hear it and were not going to refund my money. Then I got Amex involved and they too were no going to help. So I simply didn't pay my card statement when it came due, which also had my season ticket subscription to the NY Rangers on it - no small amount either.

Well obviously Amex didn't like that. We went back and forth and they still would not relent even though they knew full well that the consumer laws were against them. They sued me for payment in small claims court even though the dollar amount exceeded it. I went to court. No big deal as far as I was concerned. During the recess, the lawyer for Amex approached me to discuss a settlement. I told him I would request thru discovery any and all other correspondence and grievances that were associated with this company which ran other courses as well. I figured there would be a tractor trailer load of files they'd have to produce. I also told him I didn't want this to appear anywhere on my credit bureau report. I really didn't care about that, but I wasn't going to give them something that was of no fault of my own. He then ceded their position and removed the charge for the course and I paid for my season tickets.

We went before the judge and informed him we settled and that I demanded this didn't appear on any credit reporting. He issued an order stating they must comply. After all was said and done, I dropped Amex. I was paying for a service and convenience that was neither. These big companies feel they can hold a hammer over an individual. I didn't let that happen even if it meant "ruining my credit" which is basically a ball and chain we willingly accept.

I guess what I'm saying is, maybe you'll need to take them to court and play hardball with them. You can request discovery of all instances where equipment was derived damaged and how that was settled. Well something like that. It will get settled post haste as no one wants to go thru all that work and expense for a relatively small amount.


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## TungOil (Jan 16, 2017)

> Update: Still no Jointer/Planer. Saia called to schedule a delivery last week and then the agent recalled that they couldn t get the equipment off the truck. I immediately reached out to SCM group and so far no response.
> 
> - mbach123


SAIA is terrible. They lost my S400P after scheduling a time for me to pick it up at the terminal 1.5 hours away. They couldn't find it when I got there. They didn't find it until the next day so I made the round trip twice, 6 hours total driving. SCM would be wise to pick a better LTL carrier.


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## Knockonit (Nov 5, 2017)

boy it sure is sounding like having a smaller delivery company or go after the dang thing yourself might be the answer, i have a fair amount of special order stuff show up on jobs, sure irritates me when the driver says" not my problem, i dont go any faarther than the end of truck.

i've gotten to where i send a truck and trailer to the yard of delivery company and get it loaded, i have more control over delivery and placement and don't have to contend with an a….hole driver

Rj


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## CaptainKlutz (Apr 23, 2014)

7 months no solution?

AND Do not want to simply ship it back freight collect and demand full refund?
Not interested in hiring lawyers yet?

IMHO - time to get mean and nasty, in political and embarrassing way to SCM.

If it were me (warning I am not a nice person),

I would make up a couple 2×3 poster boards detailing facts, stupidity of SCM, and warn everyone to not buy equipment from them. Take pictures of your negative sandwich board advertisements, then send a letter to entire board of directors from SCM group (USA and Italy) with pictures of your signs, telling them you are going to IWF Alanta 2018 and spend entire show wearing these signs walking in front of their booth if this is not resolved prior to start of show.

Only caution is to ensure you show the posters to some lawyer friend before send photos to be sure nothing llibelous is posted that will force their lawyers to act. If keep it to facts and actions of SCM staff; and SUGGEST SCM can not be trusted; then their lawyers can do nothing (it's free speech).

What will this do?
Status Quo will change as they know you are done waiting.
Negative publicity from customers at a national convention is really, really bad marketing. 
IWF is special for large equipment mfg like SCM. Overseas travel is expensive and special reward for employees. If they are like most companies, several of executive/senior decision makers with be present to help local sales team close big deals with key customers. Last thing they want is some unhappy customer wondering around wearing billboard showing how poorly they provide service to customers. Head Marketing will cringe at thought of wasting $100K+ on a national show, and losing customers thanks to your advertising.

Yes, it is very nasty. Yes, lawyers may get involved. Yes, it might cost you a ~$1000 for a 4 day vacation in Atlanta for IWF. I might even go so far as to tell them; since you will be forced to attend IWF to prevent others making any purchase mistakes from SCM, that you will also send them the bill for your travel expenses as part of your dispute. 
But after 7 months, it is time to stop fooling around. 
Who knows? A (eventually) free trip to IWF could be fun.

I offer this suggestion has I have seen this kind of negative advertising work in past. Different industry, different convention, but similar issues with mfg delivery and equipment performance to my small company, the customer getting screwed. We did not warn the mfg of our intentions, simply placed a poster in our booth at same show they attended during set up day. Meeting between executives from both companies was set 1 hour before show opened to public, and issue finally resolved, sign removed before show started. Negative publicity solves problems.

Try calling these people at SCM North America offices:
Mr. Andrea Aureli, the SCM Group Chief Executive Officer
Mr. Luigi De Vito, Director of the SCM Group Woodworking Machinery Division
Mr. Giuseppe Riva, SCM North America Country Manager
You can find a few other director level contacts on LinkedIn as well.

They have press releases bragging about visit from Congressmen Rob Woodall trying to lobby for support for wood working business in America. Also have company members visiting capital hill soliciting funding? 
How do you think congressmen would react to letter that SCM is not taking care of it's customers. 
Yes, sometimes you have to be devious when pushed into a corner.

Another tip - Press office has direct line to executive staff of any company as they are official company spokesperson. Badgering press office often will get executive attention quickly. 
Press Office Scm Group: Alessandra Leardini - [email protected]
cell +39 344 3483015 <= doesn't get any better than direct cell number, even if it is Italian.

Remember, must be relentless to settle business dispute. 
Contact someone different every single day until you they take you seriously.
As saying goes, Only noisy wheels get oil.

Best Luck!


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

Just thought of something, your dispute may never have gone past the immediate sales person and his superiors, they kept it quiet. Go to head office and district managers. They have the companies rep to think about and they care about negative publicity. Its time to get nastier than them


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## mbach123 (Jan 17, 2018)

Yesterday Saia delivered the J/P. It almost fell off the truck but the driver saved it.

It was crated really well. I'm in the process of cleaning it up now.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Take a bunch of pictures as you go…ya never know….


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

There is a difference between freight shipping companies and "machinery" transporting companies. The latter has people who know how to handle machine tools where as freight shippers that use "knuckle draggers", do not. A freight shipping company relies on well crated items and that may not insure safe transit. Furniture moving companies use people trained to handle furniture and fragile items; the same with machinery shippers. When using a general freight company, take insurance out. I can understand places like SCM not honoring their agreements, as they have a large problem with damaged goods; probably due to poor packaging on their part. Something as valuable as a machine tool must be solidedly crated, not a wood frame covered by cardboard. Proper packaging costs money and companies don't want to spend money on it.


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