# Craftsman 113.226880 Table Saw



## CaptainMarvel (Dec 12, 2012)

*UPDATE:*
*The Black & Decker TS isn't a consideration any longer - focusing solely on the Craftsman TS now. I'll keep the original posting for "historical" sake.*

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Might any of you have any knowledge/thoughts about the Black & Decker BT2500 Table Saw?

I have an opportunity to pick one up for about $125 … but I wanted to run it by the experts first.
(mind you, I am strictly a DIY/Home Hobbiest level project/woodworker - not a professional or any intention of becoming one)










Thanks for any comments, insight and/or advice you can provide.

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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

Well, it's a saw with a Universal direct drive motor. This
keeps the weight and manufacturing costs down.

A contractor saw is a better investment, imo, unless 
you need something you can load and unload into
a vehicle easily by yourself.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

http://www.cpsc.gov/en/Recalls/2002/CPSC-Black--Decker-Announce-Recall-to-Repair-Table-Saws-/


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## CaptainMarvel (Dec 12, 2012)

i saw that …. but then I also found some additional info concerning the recall - as follows:

*"Check the date code - If the date code* *is from 200128-CT through 200148-CT, then it must be repaired.
Note: id the date code is followed by an "R" your saw has already been repaired. The date code is located on the front of the tool on the nameplate."*

So, I guess I would need to check the date code on the name plate of the saw - to see if it was made after the recall/repair


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## JayT (May 6, 2012)

+1 to Loren.

$125 seems like a good price, but what you are really getting is a universal motor job-site table saw with legs and a nicer fence. With a similar amount of money and some patience, you should be able to pick up a belt drive contractor saw that would be much better in the long run.


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## CaptainMarvel (Dec 12, 2012)

What do you all think about this one?? - seller is asking $275

Hitachi C10FL table saw, lightly used and in excellent condition


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## JayT (May 6, 2012)

The C10FL has a good reputation and a strong following. IIRC, it is a belt drive with the motor mounted inside the cabinet (instead of hanging off the back). The fence is pretty good and with a little tuning can make a very good saw. It is a FAR better saw than the B&D.

$275 seems fair, if it is in good shape. Not a bargain, but they aren't asking for the moon, either. I'd offer a bit less, like $225-250 and see what happens. Even if you have to pay full asking, you should come out OK.

If you have the patience, wait until knotscott checks in and see what he has to say. He is very knowledgeable on table saws and will be helpful.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

The Hitachi is probably a decent saw if the fence is any good.


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## vikingcape (Jan 3, 2013)

My father in law has the Hitachi and it cuts like a dream nice and straight. I would definitely go for that one


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## CaptainMarvel (Dec 12, 2012)

Hoping it's still available (the Hitachi, that is) ... awaiting response from seller


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## knotscott (Feb 27, 2009)

The Hitachi is a definite step up in class…. much better saw than the B&D. Much heavier, belt drive induction motor, larger work area, will accept upgrades like better fence, aftermarket miter gauge, and solid wings, is worth fixing if the motor goes south. $275 isn't a bad price, but a reasonable offer can't hurt if the saw checks out….they just might take it!


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## CaptainMarvel (Dec 12, 2012)

Another possibility just popped up on CL (for my area) . . .










"$140 
Regular blade and extra fine finish blade 
Extension table also included
FANTASTIC CONDITION, CLEAN!, WELL MAINTAINED, VERY LITTLE USE, ZERO RUST

READY TO BE USED THE SECOND YOU GET IT HOME! This is a fantastic table saw that I have taken very very very good care of! Just out of room to store, or else I would not sell. Would prefer to sell to someone that will actually use it, & not to someone that is going to slap it on eBay or sell it for parts.

VERY CLEAN, NO SPIDERS, BUGS, ETC.LIKE OTHER TABLESAWS ON CL! THIS SAW SPENT ITS LIFE SO FAR INDOORS, well lubricated, & NOT in a production shop either! A GREAT BUY !"

*I emailed the seller as to the make/model, and received this reply . . . *

"It's craftsman 113.xxxxx I can get u x's later tday. It has good reviews vintage excellent saw. I've taken VERY GOOD CARE OF IT"

*He is going to provide the full model number later ….. but what do you think of THIS possibility?*


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## JayT (May 6, 2012)

The Craftsman 113 series are pretty good contractor style saws and can be made to work well. It is what I am currently using and it meets all of my needs very nicely. Cast iron top, that one has steel wings, but it is possible to pick up cast iron grate wings for very little if you prefer. All that said, they have one major downfall-the fence sucks. It will cost $150-200 for a new fence to fit. You can get by with the stock fence for a while, but be prepared for some frustrations. Make sure it is a belt drive, Craftsman also had a "Flex Drive" style 113 that drove the blade with a flexible shaft-if it is that type, I would pass.

For the same money, personally, I would prefer the Hitachi and not need to worry about the upgrade. If that deal falls through the Craftsman is not a bad back-up plan.


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## knotscott (Feb 27, 2009)

As long as it's got the belt drive induction motor hanging out the back, it's still a step up in class from the B&D, and has very good potential, but JayT hit the nail on the head about the fence. If you're willing to deal with the fence for a while, or upgrade it, could be a good buy. The Hitachi fence isn't wonderful either, but it works. I'd offer $100-$125 if it checks out.


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## kdc68 (Mar 2, 2012)

*+1 Jay*...The fence is a PITA…I owned a 113.226880 for 20 plus years. It was reliable, never had issues until the last year or so when I was getting a lot of arbor runout. But the fence was pretty much a pain the whole time. I didn't feel too much like dealing with the arbor bearings (if that what caused the runout) and so I bought a new saw. I sold mine to a Craftsman fanatic. He was prepared to upgrade the motor and fence. Mine was in excellent shape, no rust and had all the original parts…


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

Those Craftsman saws are real basic but they get the
job done. They have cranks instead of handwheels, 
a very basic (and somewhat finnicky) fence, and the
casters don't work very well due to thin gauge 
steel mounts and flexing of the also-thin gauge 
legs.

The Hitachi will be a smoother tool all around.

Once you get a cut set up though, both saws will 
do it equally well.

I think the Hitachi is a good buy at $200-$250 
depending on local supply. The motor hanging
out the back on the Craftsman makes it more
of a hassle to enclose for dust or make an
outfeed table.


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## toolie (Mar 16, 2011)

is that hitachi the one that has plastic elevation or bevel gears?

+1 on KS's comments about price. i have two similar emerson built saws and kept them over a 3hp unisaw i refurbished and they do what i need to do. if equipped with a ridgid OEM fence or a delta t2, they are extremely capable, even with a 1 hp motor and a sharp blade specific to the designated task.

if it's missing the splitter/blade guard, use that as a bargaining chip ro lower the price. they can cost between $60 and 100 off ebay. there is no way to retro fit a riving knife, adn things like the BORK and the shark guard are pricey options for supplanting the OEM splitter.


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## CaptainMarvel (Dec 12, 2012)

Here are some additional images the seller sent me (of the Craftsman TS) . . .


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## kdc68 (Mar 2, 2012)

Aside from the cramp in my neck from looking at your photos, from what I can tell the saw appears to be a great condition…lol. Tough call between the Craftsman and Hitachi. I know the new Porter Cable has the plastic gear, the Hitachi may have the same since they are pretty much identical


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## RibsBrisket4me (Jul 17, 2011)

Either the C-man or the Hitachi are really good options. I have a C-man 113.298762 saw it's been super for years. I did upgrade the fence though…pics on my link below.

Grab one of those saws and get a'cutting some wood


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## toolie (Mar 16, 2011)

the motor on the c-man is missing a cover that prevents contact with the motor pulley. with a little work, and the purchase of CI wings and a delta t2, they can be first rate tools. but i'm probably biased as i have two of them. and stumbling across a ridgid herc-u-lift will give it terrific mobility and bolt directly to the leg stand.


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## CaptainMarvel (Dec 12, 2012)

toolie writes:
"the motor on the c-man is missing a cover that prevents contact with the motor pulley"

Any idea which part this is - and if one can still order/obtain a replacement part for this?


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## toolie (Mar 16, 2011)

probably available from sears, ereplacements.com or M and D mower.com. the saw model number is needed to find the missing guard part number.


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## CaptainMarvel (Dec 12, 2012)

So I believe I am going to go for that Craftsman TS …. seller's asking price is $140.

What (if anything different) do you think I should check for and - based on such - offer ???


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

I would offer $100. Ask about extra blades.

Prices in your area may be higher than mine though - 
a lot depends on population density.

Saw looks complete and unabused. Check the 
fence to make sure it tightens down. As
I recall you have to push forward as you turn 
the handle to make those fences clamp square.

You don't need a belt guard.


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## RibsBrisket4me (Jul 17, 2011)

Yep, what Toolie/Loren said…offer $100, go up to $120 if need be. That saw looks in super shape for it's age.

Work with the fence best you can and save pennies until you can score a Delta T2 or a Craftsman/Ridgid fence on CL or E-bay.

Get a SPLITTER of some sort!!! MJ, one from EBay, etc…

That saw can do a ton of stuff once you get to "know" it.

I dont have a belt cover on mine and it's never been an issue for almost 20 yrs.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

Push on the back of the fence, it will flex and he will know it flexes if he's ever used it; then go, 'hmmmm'. Might get you a few dollars off.


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## CaptainMarvel (Dec 12, 2012)

Hey Guys … I just saw this Craftsman Table Saw on my local CL - seller asking $80.

*Description: *
10" Table Saw-Craftsman. Excellent condition-about 10 years old. Includes spare blades, legs, all accessories that came with original. 3 blades.










What do you think? How well do you think I would be able to clean up the rusty top?

What do you think about this compared to the other Craftsman TS (still an option/available for me) I mentioned above?


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## JayT (May 6, 2012)

Similar model to the one above, do you have any other pictures of the front & rear?

Cleaning the rusty top is pretty simple and straight forward, just takes some time and elbow grease. As long as everything checks out, $80 is a good price. The price difference is basically the time and effort it will take to clean up the second, while the first looks pretty much ready to go. Your call on how much your time is worth.

Don't get caught up in analysis, find a saw you will be happy with at a price you are willing to pay and start making sawdust. It is too easy to continually second guess and end up not making a decision at all and so not do any woodworking.

BTW, it is more than 10 years old, not really a bad thing, just sayin'. Maybe the seller just doesn't know much about it.


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## CaptainMarvel (Dec 12, 2012)

Second guessing myself is my greatest personal enemy/roadblock to getting anything done . . . 
I truly hate that about myself (though I love everything else about me, so it all balances out in the end) ;-)

I'm leaning toward agreeing with you about the first one - in terms of it being "ready to go" with the "clean" factor. Of course, both saws (I believe) will require some relative work to bring it up to specs … most notably, a decent fence system and new blades.

Either way, I'm planning on getting it this weekend - so just doing my last minute due diligence research/education before I take the plunge.


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## toolie (Mar 16, 2011)

assuming their operational condition is equal, get the $80 saw. the saved $60 can be put towards a new fence system.


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## RibsBrisket4me (Jul 17, 2011)

Tom be careful. The second C-man saw could be "direct drive" I had one of those and you don't want one. Weak, weak, weak…no torque. Or even WORSE a FLEX DRIVE saw!!!

The first C-man saw is good because it is a true contractor saw with a belt driven motor. With just a pic of the top of the second C-man saw, you really can't tell…..also both saws are way older than 10 yrs old.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

Too many unknowns about the 2nd saw but it's clearly not in "excellent condition" and your first weekend will be spent cleaning off rust before you even get to any other issues.


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## CaptainMarvel (Dec 12, 2012)

See … THIS is why I love this community - because I get *real-world* insight, advice and education about this kind of thing.

*THANKS TO ALL !!!*

Incidentally, I am giving a great deal of consideration to going in this direction for upgrading the fence system--> http://lumberjocks.com/Hutch/blog/2740


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## toolie (Mar 16, 2011)

*The second C-man saw could be "direct drive" *

good catch. flex and direct drive TSs should be avoided if at all possible. but dont let a little rust deter you from a saw. it cleans fairly easily and the more work you do on a saw, the better you know it and how it operates.


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## CaptainMarvel (Dec 12, 2012)

@ toolie:

In post #20 above, you mention the following:
"the motor on the c-man is missing a cover that prevents contact with the motor pulley."

Do you have any idea what that part is called - so I can try to look it up/find a replacement part for it?


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## JayT (May 6, 2012)

TOM, check here. It is part # A-59 Beltguard-just a plastic piece that goes over the belt pulley. You could easily make one out of some scrap wood and 1/4in ply, as well.


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## CaptainMarvel (Dec 12, 2012)

*THANK YOU !!!*


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## CaptainMarvel (Dec 12, 2012)

*UPDATE:*

I picked up the Craftsman Table Saw this weekend (see post #17 to see which one).

It looks to be in great shape for it's age - better than I expected, actually. Belt-driven and relatively quiet. The table top looks to be in great shape - though a little "aged dark" ... which I intend to work on this week.


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## JayT (May 6, 2012)

Congrats on your new tool. Be safe, have fun and make some sawdust!


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## dschlic1 (Jan 3, 2013)

Good buy! I have a similar saw with a similar fence. On you unit it looks like the saw is missing two of the fence rails that go on the left side of the saw. These are just 1 1/4" iron angles. Check and see if the seller still has them.

There is a secret to setting up the fence for accurate cuts. Underneath the fence head there is a "spring" that rides on the rail (angle iron) between the rail and the table. This provides pressure against the two points of contact on the fence head against the outside of the rail. This keeps the fence square when moving it. If you have any questions send me a private message.


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## CaptainMarvel (Dec 12, 2012)

Actually, my plan is to replace the fence with something along the lines of LJ Member "Hutch's" idea . . . http://lumberjocks.com/Hutch/blog/2740


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## RibsBrisket4me (Jul 17, 2011)

Awesome!!! Congrats Tom!!! Keep us posted with progress pics!

Welcome to the Craftsman 113 club!


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

I've been reading that thread on 80/20 extrusion fences and they discuss it being much cheaper than an aftermarket fence but looks like the cost was around $225. That puts it higher than a Delta T30 and almost in the same range as a Vega. Or you could buy a used Delta Unifence for around $120.


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## RonInOhio (Jul 23, 2010)

Congrats on the new saw. I think you were wise to weigh your options and shop around.

Good luck.


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## RibsBrisket4me (Jul 17, 2011)

And please put a splitter behind that blade Tom!


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## CaptainMarvel (Dec 12, 2012)

Not to worry, Todd … I most definitely plan to.

First stage/steps are to clean the tool up … starting with the table top. Any advice as to the best product(s) to use for this - to try to get it nice and "as close to new" looking as possible?


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## toolie (Mar 16, 2011)

here's a methoid that worked quite well when i refurbished a 70s era unisaw:






here's how the refurbbed top turned out. before:










after:










working to ever finer grits of wet/dry paper will make the top shinier. it will, however, be slow going as that top is relatively large, compared to how chisels and hand planer blades turn out.


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## JayT (May 6, 2012)

I used gray Scotch pads under a 1/4 sheet finish sander and got very good results quickly. Put a coarse sandpaper on the sander to grip the Scotch pad, add a few drops of 3-in-1 oil on the saw top and start sanding.


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## RibsBrisket4me (Jul 17, 2011)

I use green Scotch-Brite pads with WD-40…wipe down and then wax. I have used sandpaper and even Navel Jelly to remove surface rust with nice results.


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## CaptainMarvel (Dec 12, 2012)

Started working on the table top last night - with Mineral Spirits and 80, 180 and 320 grit sponge blocks.

Took some "before" pics … and I will be sure to start snapping some "in progress" and "after" pics as well. Might be time to finally start my own Lumberjocks Blog entry. ;-)


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## knotscott (Feb 27, 2009)

Keep at it. I know it' s a lot of work, but the results can be downright impressive, with lasting benefits.


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## CaptainMarvel (Dec 12, 2012)

Yah, THAT'S the thing/part I'm wondering about . . . HOW do I know when I've sanded all I can sand the table top? I'm thinking I know that it's not going to be "fresh from the factory shiny new" - but is there a discernible point where I can/will know when I've done all the sanding (and "mineral spiriting") I can do?

I mean, I would LOVE to get it as close to "factory fresh/shiney" as possible . . . but I also don't want to damage the table top by being too over zealous.

make sense ???

any thoughts/advice ???


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## toolie (Mar 16, 2011)

go for smooth and flat, as opposed to removing all traces of any possible stains purely for aesthetics. appearance is a form variable. flatness is a function variable, and i believe in function over form.


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## JayT (May 6, 2012)

+1 for toolie's advice.

As long as any red rust is gone, you will be fine. Sometimes trying to remove all black marks ends up causing more problems.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

I'm anxious to see how this project works out.


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