# Trouble setting a Stanley hand plane



## kyngfish (Feb 26, 2018)

Hi All - I'm pretty new at this - I've built your odd cabinet here and there, but now I've been acquiring better tools and building more complicated things. One of the things I've purchased recently is a set of hand planes, a number 7 Stanley and a number 4 Stanley, both pre-war. Both are in decent - used condition. (I think?)

I bought the veritas blades for both, and I honed and installed the number four last night - and I can't get it set up properly. I've watched a ton of videos and read articles and I can't get it set.

It seems like no matter what I do, the blade is too close to the front edge of the mouth. I've taken it apart and put it back together, and I've adjusted the frog back and forth.

One thing I've noticed is that the frog for my number four doesn't come flush with the back edge of the mouth, it slides back from the back edge of the mouth about a quarter inch when I adjust it, but the farthest forward it goes is about 1/16th or so from the mouth bevel, so I feel like in that position the blade would never sit completely flush with the frog. Maybe someone sanded or ground down the frog too much?

Appreciate any tips or pointers. Do I need to buy a new frog?


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## BlasterStumps (Mar 13, 2017)

You will need to file the front of the mouth opening to make room for the thicker Veritas blade or, just use the original Stanley blade. 
From what you're describing about the frog, seems normal to me. I think it is fine. Put the original blade in and adjust for a close mouth opening and you will have it.


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## bbasiaga (Dec 8, 2012)

It's ok if the frog doesn't match up perfectly with the throat. I have the thicker Veritas blade in my no. 8 and had to move the frog back, and it cuts just fine with no chatter. Remember the bevel is down in these planes so there is some clearance there until the blade is pushed out pretty far.

I saw a neat trick on YouTube that I haven't tried yet, but could help you. Wrap the blade with two pieces of blue painters tape. Then loosen the frog screws and install the blade and lever cap like normal. Now use the frog adjusting screw to slide things forward until the tape just touches the front of the mouth. Now remove the blade and tighten the frog screws down. Your frog will be in the right place for a shaving that is two pieces of tape thick, or thinner.

Brian


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

You can definitely install that blade in a #4 without filing the mouth.

You should be able to tighten the frog without it moving. Sounds like something is going on with the frog.


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

Somethings up with the frog.


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## kyngfish (Feb 26, 2018)

Frog doesn't move once it's tight. I just notice that it doesn't come flush with the throat. The furthest forward I can get is about a 16th back from the back of the mouth. I feel like when I adjust the blade down to start shaving - that distance pushes the blade back at a shallower angle and moves the edge forward when that happens - so no matter how far back I push the frog I'm not really getting more space in front of the edge. I'll post pictures this evening. Appreciate the help.


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

It maybe the wrong frog. I'd try typing the parts to see if you have 2 parts with different types maybe?


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Put the OEM blades back in, and see how it works with them. The plane was designed to use those irons and chipbreakers. Unless there is something UNDER the frog holding things up? Took apart a #4 one time,that wasn't working right…only to find someone had added a steel plate under the frog…."to help seat the frog better"..it didn't.










Stanley #4, Type 10…..OEM iron and chipbreaker









Stanley #8, Type 7..original iron and chipbreaker


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

Kyngfish, it sounds frustrating for sure.

That the frog cannot be set coplanar with the back of the mouth is certainly a problem. I've not heard of anyone removing up to 1/16" from the face of a frog before, so Fridge's point of 'maybe the wrong frog' may be correct. You might consider elongating the slots in the frog to get the fraction back vs. 'new' frog. And once it's forward and flush, there's still the issue with an overly tight mouth.

That's when the OEM blade and breaker may be pressed back into service to verify it's a thicker Veritas cutter problem or something else.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

Post a picture of the frog from the top moved all the way back. I agree it sounds like a frog problem.


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## kyngfish (Feb 26, 2018)

OK so I was wrong about something, I fiddled with the frog last night and I can get it pretty close to flush with the throat, maybe it isn't close enough but I will let you all be the judge. Veritas sells these blades as fitting the stanleys, and it's a real shame because I actually put the other blade on my No. 7 and it works like a dream. I have the original blades, but the one on my No. 7 wasn't flat and at my skill level, I couldn't get it properly sharp. 2 minutes of honing the veritas blade for the No. 7 and it worked like a charm cutting a 12degree angle into the end of a piece of birch plywood.

I'm posting the pics to get your opinions. One shows the frog all the way forward, the next all the way back. Then I have a pic of the gap with the blade, and another showing that the blade isn't breaking the surface of the plane yet. Thanks for all the feedback and help.


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## BlasterStumps (Mar 13, 2017)

frog looks fine to me. 
I'd be interested in seeing now if you can insert the Veritas blade and chip breaker and have the cutting edge clear the front of the mouth when it is properly set for cutting. (assuming we are talking your smaller plane)


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

To be clear. It's not the frog adjusting screw holding it up? I'm usually able to overlap the mouth with frogs.


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## kyngfish (Feb 26, 2018)

@thefridge Well I'm not sure. The adjusting screw is definitely at its limit. I think I have a little space left for the frog to slide forward re: the top tightening screws. Is there another shorter screw I can buy? or one that allows more adjustment?

@BlasterStumps I can post another pic tonight, but essentially as soon as the blade is far down enough to clear the mouth, it's also forward of the front edge of the mouth, and the gap between blade/front of mouth is so small that the little bit of wood that gets scraped from the blade gets stuck in the mouth gap.

I can post more pictures tonight.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Hmmm….might see what I have….


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

Might suck an awl in the hole for the frog adjusting screw and see if it has junk packed in there. Worst case I'd cut 1/16 - 1/8 off the screw. I'd never use any adjustment that puts the frog out of line behind the mouth anyway. Just me.

I know if you're using the new iron/cap iron it wouldn't matter much but the problem would bug the hell out of me.


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## bbasiaga (Dec 8, 2012)

With the blade advancesmd it is too close to the mouth to pass a shaving. Is that with the frog all the way forward or all the way back? If the former, then just move the frog back until it works. Don't worry about the space between the back of the blade and the plane bed. It won't matter.

Brian


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## kyngfish (Feb 26, 2018)

I don't know much about hand planes, but I feel like the bevel on the blade is almost parallel with the wood, so if the frog is behind the mouth, eventually the plane of the blade hits the edge of the mouth and it would be pushed forward and at an incorrect angle, so adjusting it back behind the mouth wouldn't give me any more space for the front of the blade… if anything, because it's now pushed to a shallower angle, I would get less space.

I'll check the adjusting screw and see if anything is packed in there. if that doesn't work I'll try to find another frog i guess.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Took a few pictures of a #4 I have, to compare with..









Now, IF this is the same adjust bolt, be aware that the clip goes into a groove just ahead of the head of the bolt….IF you can see that groove, clip is too far forward. Re-install with the clip in the groove.









This is where I set the frog. But, I use the OEM iron and chipbreaker..









Where the yoke likes to sit…









Gives me a little bit of room..









And I do have a Stanley No. 7c just it was made before them frog adjust bolts were thought of..









Type 9


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## CaptainKlutz (Apr 23, 2014)

> I don t know much about hand planes,
> 
> so if the frog is behind the mouth, eventually the plane of the blade hits the edge of the mouth and it would be pushed forward and at an incorrect angle
> 
> - kyngfish


I've watched this thread as long as I can stand it. 

Your hypothesis above is not helping you solve the problem. 
Best way to learn about hand plane blade fitting is not guessing what happens when frog is moved rearward, but actually checking out what happens. 

#1 - What is your gap between the end of blade and cap iron? (Should be small 1/16" max) 
The blade position in mouth opening is actually set by a slot in the cap iron. If too much blade is exposed beyond cap iron, the blade position will be pushed forward and show the lack of gap like you are stating.

#2 - Try this:
Mount bevel down blade/cap iron assembly into plane with frog screws loose. Extend the blade to be flush with bottom of plane. Move frog back and forth. Does blade move back and forth the same distance you can move the frog or is movement limited? If limited, what does blade contact?

Now with blade adjusted to just start to cut, take out the blade, and Place some blue tape on bottom of blade/cap iron assembly where blade touches the back of mouth and frog. Repeat moving the frog process. Now take it apart and look for witness marks (indentations) on tape to confirm where blade is touching.
This will show IF the blade is hitting back of mouth, how well the blade rests on frog, and lead you to source of problem. You could also do same test with stock OEM blade and compare the difference.

Have retrofit many planes with thicker blades. You have to move the frog back. As mentioned by another, the trick is that blade bevel is DOWN, is 25+ degrees tilted up from edge, and the blade does not normally touch back of mouth when properly adjusted. 
If you find contact with back of mouth, then we have to figure out why it is happening. 
If for example your plane has the frog machined to sit a little too low, I would file the back of mouth larger (and at slight angle) to allow frog to move back to create clearance, before I would make front of mouth larger. The back edge is less critical. The front edge is what supports surface in front of cut, you do not want a large gap there when attempting to cut thin shavings or figured woods.

If you can not figure out why your gap is too small, then post images of adjusted blade in plane, and images of witness marks on back of blade as outlined above. With those images, we should be able to guide on how to fix.

Best Luck.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

> - kyngfish


This is pretty close to perfect. Just a tad ahead and it would be. It's close enough it should work through. Definitely no further back.

Now show us what the new blade looks like in it.


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## ColonelTravis (Mar 19, 2013)

A thought: is the adjuster lever properly seated in the little hole in the blade? This problem happens a lot with my vintage #8 with a Hock. After I sharpen the blade and put it back together, I'll notice the blade is sticking way out like a buck-toothed beaver. I have to unlock the lever cap and finagle the blade back until it seats correctly. I don't know why it does it with my 8 so much and not my other vintage planes with a newer, thicker blade. But it does. Maybe the adjuster lever doesn't have as much metal on it? Not sure.


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## kyngfish (Feb 26, 2018)

@CaptainKlutz - I was being polite - I didn't want to impose my impressions in case a plane worked differently than I expected. I tested almost all of those things, moving the chipbreaker back and forth, moving the frog back and forth, sliding the blade up and down. Based on some of the posts here my understanding is the frog should move forward from the back of the mouth and maybe slightly behind.

The thing about the blade hitting the back of the mouth isn't a hypothesis. There are some pictures below, once I move the frog backward about 1/8" from the back of the mouth, the back of the blade hits the back of the mouth, and the blade no longer sits flush to the frog, and actually, when I inch the blade downward/forward to start shaving, the edge hits the front of the mouth. It only gets worse from there.

Using the original blade is a possibility. But given that the Veritas blade works so well with my 7. I think it's likely something is up with the frog, maybe it was refurbished and too much material taken off? maybe it's a frog from another plane? So here are my revised questions based on all the helpful feedback:

- Is my understanding of the frog function correct? should it slide forward from the back of the mouth and back to the edge of the mouth? Mine currently does not reach the back of the mouth, it only goes forward nearly to the edge. Adjusting screw is placed correctly.

- I'd rather replace the frog because it's easier and cheaper to replace than the sole - any pointers on where to find the right one, just ebay?

- Anyone have frog dimensions? Pitch should be 45 deg right?

Pictures below - see frog position behind the mouth, and then see the space between the blade and frog in the other picture - at that point when I inch the blade out, it hits the edge of the mouth. So moving further back isn't really an option. Thanks again for all the great feedback.


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## JayT (May 6, 2012)

I don't think you need to replace the frog. Look at Don W's post again and re-read what he wrote below the pic.



> - kyngfish
> 
> This is pretty close to perfect. Just a tad ahead and it would be. It s close enough it should work through. Definitely no further back.
> 
> - Don W


Ideally, you want the frog and mouth to be aligned. The only reason to move a frog farther forward ahead of the mouth is if the mouth is too large. You do not have that problem. As Don said, yours is close enough it should work just fine. That small discrepancy is where the bevel of the blade is at, so shouldn't be a problem.

Move the frog as far forward as you can. That way it will support the blade and not flex it. If the blade is still hitting the front of the mouth, then you will have to very carefully file the front of the mouth back a little bit. If the mouth was already tight from the Stanley factory, then adding the thicker Veritas iron would cause it to not extend through the mouth. This is not that uncommon when people use an aftermarket replacement iron.

When filing a mouth, make sure to keep it square (I like to mark a square line with a Sharpie) and go slow. A couple strokes all the way across and test the fit. Repeat until you get just a sliver of light and a piece of paper will slide through. Sharpen and test. If the shavings come through, you are good. If not, then file a little more. Just take your time and go slow. Cast iron files away quickly and it is very easy to overdo it.


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## bbasiaga (Dec 8, 2012)

Generally, from my experience you should be able to move the frog forward to line up with the throat. In your case, you are saying that in order to prevent the blade from contacting the front of the mouth you have to move the frog so far back that the blade hits the back of the mouth. In that case a frog that goes farther forward won't help you.

Can you put up a pic of the blade and chip breaker assembled? One Out of the plane and one in the plane but without the lever cap installed.

The veritas irons are only about . 080" thicker than a standard iron, IIRC, so you shouldn't have to move the frog back so far to account for the difference.

One thing I notice in your last pic is the depth adjuster is all the way out/down. Maybe trying to put it in the fully up position and then setting the frog position could help, if you haven't tried it already.

Brian


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## CaptainKlutz (Apr 23, 2014)

> Can you put up a pic of the blade and chip breaker assembled? One Out of the plane and one in the plane but without the lever cap installed.
> 
> The veritas irons are only about . 080" thicker than a standard iron, IIRC, so you shouldn t have to move the frog back so far to account for the difference.
> 
> ...


+10 = pictures of new blade + chip breaker in plane

The maxed out position of depth adjuster could also indicate that "Y" adjuster lever is little short and not engaging thicker blade/cap iron combo properly?

Still want to know what kind of gap existed between OEM blade edge and front of mouth. If OEM blade also had a similar small gap with frog back from mouth slightly (but blade did not contact the base); then thicker blade/cap might require some filing of mouth opening on this plane. 
Filing is not a crisis, just something that is not common with mid-range replacement blade thickness (.140") supplied by Veritas. Now, If you attempt to install one of the thicker (0.250") blades in a Stanley plane, then you absolutely have to enlarge the mouth to accept the new blade.

Sorry, Without pictures of blade fit, adjuster engagement, etc; 
can not see what may be wrong to offer any more suggestions.

Best Luck!


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## BlasterStumps (Mar 13, 2017)

"kyngfish", too bad we are not close by each other, I would give you a hand with the OEM blades. You could use them for backup if nothing else.


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## kyngfish (Feb 26, 2018)

I'll post pictures of the chipbreaker assembly on the blade. For what it's worth, I'm using the OEM chipbreaker. I figured since it fit (again, works with the 7 plane) that there wouldn't be an issue. The veritas chipbreaker might have a higher height on the adjuster slot to help compensate for the depth.

The position of the depth adjuster is about where it needs to be to get the blade to reach the sole (with the chip breaker 1/16th behind the edge. Maybe it's too short. But I figured it was because (since the slot is on the chipbreaker and on the other side of the blade) the adjuster has to travel farther to push the blade downward. Also because the frog is back in this picture and there's a gap between frog/blade, the issue is compounded.

Here's a picture of the chipbreaker and blade edge. I'll take pictures of the full assembly tonight, as well as the OEM blade in the plane.

Again, thanks for all the help.


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## Jeremymcon (Jul 16, 2016)

You tried unscrewing those two screws holding the frog down and shifting it back a bit? I installed a hock iron on a no 5, and it didn't have enough space to fit through the mouth of the plane. The new after market irons are thicker than the originals. I just loosened those screws and shifted the frog back a little, and it worked fine. In my plane, they are in slotted holes.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

It certainly is possible that a thicker blade is just to thick. I had a Stanley plane that wouldn't work with the stock blade. It amazes me the way some of these left the factory and have sat untouched for 100 years.

If you can get more pictures it may help. If you get tired of it send it to me. I'll fix it and send it back.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

^ take that offer!


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## bbasiaga (Dec 8, 2012)

Any updates? real curious as to what is going on with this combo.


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## kyngfish (Feb 26, 2018)

Hi All - I haven't forgotten this. And Don, your offer is incredibly generous, I may take you up on it, but I'm not frustrated yet. This is definitely a learning process and I'm enjoying the process.

I was finishing up a set of back loaded horns this weekend, and restoring an old school desk and then my AC drain pan cracked and I've been spending my time fixing that up while cleaning up the mess. So I haven't had time to get back to the plane, but I will post pictures tonight.

Apologies!


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## kyngfish (Feb 26, 2018)

Right, so here goes. I've taken the pictures in sequence, showing the assembly and how the blades fit with the frog at different positions. No matter what, when I move the frog back, the blade goes off line and creates a gap between blade and frog. I don't know if that's a problem, but it would change the angle of the blade which doesn't seem great.

The original blade definitely has enough room and fits well. The reason I got the veritas blade is that I heard good things, and the edge on my OEM blade isn't square. I'm good enough at honing and mild sharpening, but I tried sharpening the No. 7 for hours on my water stones and didn't get it to anywhere as close to the sharpness of the veritas blades out of the box and honed.

Thanks again for the help.


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## Jeremymcon (Jul 16, 2016)

Sounds like you're going to need to either file away some of the front of the mouth or get the original blades back in working order. The replacements are too thick.

If you'll be doing any significant amount of sharpening of plane irons and chisels, you're going to want to get a grinder eventually and learn how to use it to restore edges. Doesn't need to be anything special either - mine is a really old one that someone gave me. Not much in the way of tool rests, but I can do well enough by hand. After sharpening a tool freehand a bunch of times I generally get a bit of a convex edge and the bevel angle starts getting too steep, so I grind my plane irons maybe every 10*15 sharpenings to restore the bevel angle and square up the edge of necessary. Though a slightly out of square edge isn't the end of the world either - just use the planes lateral adjustment.


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## CaptainKlutz (Apr 23, 2014)

My observation:
Your blade extension past cap iron is double my maximum preferred setting. This pushes the blade closer to the front edge of mouth due how the adjuster works via cap iron. 
Trying making the blade extension past cap iron to 1/16" or less, and this will give you more room in throat.

More knowledgeable plane experts may disagree, but I would also recommend filing back edge of throat opening slightly before filing front side, in case you ever want to use standard blade in that plane? You do not want the opening in front of blade too large if you switch back. You should be able to remove 1/16-1/32" from back, have zero impact when using old blade, and allow frog to move back enough to gain space in front of blade as desired.

Also, that cap iron needs to cleaned up, and waxed to help clear shavings better.

Best Luck.


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## kyngfish (Feb 26, 2018)

> My observation:
> Your blade extension past cap iron is double my maximum preferred setting. This pushes the blade closer to the front edge of mouth due how the adjuster works via cap iron.


Ruler next to blade is 32nds. That wide angle iPhone lens plays tricks. The blade is 2 hash marks on that ruler; 1/16th. I do prefer the idea of filing the rear of the mouth. I'll give that a try.

Best.


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## BlasterStumps (Mar 13, 2017)

"kyngfish", nice work on the desk and speakers. Cool entertainment center! 
Mike


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## JayT (May 6, 2012)

> My observation:
> Your blade extension past cap iron is double my maximum preferred setting. This pushes the blade closer to the front edge of mouth due how the adjuster works via cap iron.
> 
> Ruler next to blade is 32nds. That wide angle iPhone lens plays tricks. The blade is 2 hash marks on that ruler; 1/16th. I do prefer the idea of filing the rear of the mouth. I'll give that a try.
> ...


I'm with Captain on that one. For a smoother, I set the cap iron under 1/32 from the edge. 1/16 is way too much. Another option on filing is to file out the holes in the frog a bit. That would give you some more adjustment and is not as critical as the mouth. With any filing, go slow.

Cap iron looks like it needs tuned, as well. In your third pic, there appears to be a shadow between the front of the cap iron and the face of the iron. Those need to meet up at the front edge with no gap.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

this is to far back. This should be flush.

That's why you see this space


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

move the frog ahead flush and show us what it looks like with the OEM blade.


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## kyngfish (Feb 26, 2018)

Here's as far flush as it goes. That's why I'm wondering if the frog is wrong. See below.










With OEM blade


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## BlasterStumps (Mar 13, 2017)

Going by what I can see in the pictures, I am guessing you have a type 14 No 4 plane. I too have a type 14 No 4 sweetheart smoother. Best smoother I have. Your frog and the picture of it moved forward look just like mine. I don't see any problem there. 
If it were mine, I would sharpen the OEM blade, making it square and then make sure the chip breaker is good and flat to the blade, then set it up as has been suggested a couple times in other posts and you should be good to go.

A little candle wax on the sole is your friend.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

move the frog ahead flush and show us what it looks like with the OEM blade.


> Here's as far flush as it goes. That's why I'm wondering if the frog is wrong. See below.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't think the frog is wrong, just shorten the frog adjustment screw a little, although it should be ahead far enough. Having the frog adjustment screw hole not threaded far enough is not an uncommon issue.

It is obvious based on these pictures you have a mouth to tight for a thicker blade. I agree with Blaster, but if you must use the thicker iron, you're going to have to file the mouth open.


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## kyngfish (Feb 26, 2018)

OK - Fair enough. I'll get a grinder and try my hand at resetting the OEM blade.

If I can't do that, or fail miserably  - I'll widen the mouth.

The adjustment screw is definitely in as deep as it can be, so basically I just take a grinder and lop off 1/8th" from the end of the screw?


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

That should be the key. I'd pull the frog adjusting screw just to make sure the frog has full range without the screw in place.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

> OK - Fair enough. I ll get a grinder and try my hand at resetting the OEM blade.
> 
> If I can t do that, or fail miserably  - I ll widen the mouth.
> 
> ...


I agree with Frig, just take the screw right out to try it.

Second, fill out your profile so we know where your from, and if it's from the US, before taking a file to the mouth, send me the old blade and I'll see what I can do. But I'm sure you can get it right.


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## kyngfish (Feb 26, 2018)

Fair enough - I'm in Miami - I'll update my profile.


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