# First frame and panel exterior door - How to construct the panels?



## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

Full disclosure I first posted this in another forum but never got any suggestions so I thought I would try here.

Even though I had thought about using cedar but it was starting to make this to complicated. This is my first rail and style door and I am making it out of treated lumber for exterior access to crawl/basement space. I have milled down 2×8's into 4" styles, a 7" bottom rail, 5" lock rail & top rail. In the middle I am planning on using a 3" piece or narrower off cuts to connect the rails (not sure if that is a middle style?).

Question: How to assemble the panels? I have cut a 1/2" groove in the rails and styles that matches my 10mm mortice chisel that I will use to cut the mortices. It is a little over 3/8" where the panel material will go. My idea for the panels are:

1) Tongue and groove the 3/8" thick slates that make up the panel but not glue them together to allow for expansion and entire panel will also float.

2) Make a panel by gluing up treated pieces and plane a bevel to fit in the 3/8" groove.

I have Tite Bond III for glue but I have never worked with a treated panel or use glue on an exterior piece. Do you think a glued panel can hold up? House has a wide overhang but some splashing will hit the door at times. Thanks in advance for any help or ideas. This is my first door build.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

I bought a raised panel exterior door before I had the tools to make one myself. The big secret with the panels according to the manufacturer, is to make half thickness panels , two for a ach space. Be sure the joints do not line up. That way, if one panel splits, the other will stay solid to prevent through cracks. The door is 30 years old and doing well. It is protected by a storm door.


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

I don't know how your treated wood is treated.
My experience is that when planing that greenish wood we have here as treated wood, I could see the green product didn't penetrate very far. After planing I was back with wood which I could glue without thinking about it.


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

That's interesting Sylvain, I am in the States so I don't know how the methods differ. I can glue up some test pieces but that will only tell me how strong the bond is now but I was to get some insight into how moisture and movement will effect it over the years.

The short version of my question what how to construct the floating panels. 1) solid panels that are several boards glued up to make the panel.
or

2) narrow tongue and grooved panels fit but not glued together to make up the panel.


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

No advise here.
Choose the look you prefer.


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

I have decided to glue up a panel slightly wider than my groove and hand plane a bevel to fit and force the panel snug to the face side of the door. I may be tough to find enough knot free treated wood though.


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

I would use 3/4 Pressure treated plywood rabetted and glued into groove.

With that exposure and that type of wood, ply will eliminate the movement issue, and by gluing in the panel adds a lot is strength.

I would also use polyurethane or epoxy glue, I don't trust TBIII for something like this.

Pin the tenons, it'll be there for 50 years..


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

> I would use 3/4 Pressure treated plywood rabetted and glued into groove.
> 
> With that exposure and that type of wood, ply will eliminate the movement issue, and by gluing in the panel adds a lot is strength.
> 
> ...


I haven't thought abbot plywood. It would allow me to glue in place without the movement issues ant I could run a bead of caulk around it to seal out water. I may see what the ply costs today.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

I gave a photo response on that other site.

usually, I have to glue up the panels. I used through mortise and tenon joints, except for stiles in the middle of the door, that meet in the lock rail. Lock rail will have 2 tenons, with a space between them for the lockset. Not only are the through tenons pinned into place…I also drive 2 wedges in.


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

I did see your pics. I didn't think this all the way through although I have been seeking advice. I started with tenons that were intentionally shorter than through because it is difficult (not impossible) to hand mortice deep or from both sides to meet in the middle. Possibly a big mistake, we'll see. I need to find the best solution to pin the tenons since wedging is out. I need strong and rot resistant pins, any ideas?


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## Ocelot (Mar 6, 2011)

Wedging is *not* out.

You cut a slot in the tennon for the wedge, start the wedge. Then drive the other end of the piece so that as the tennon goes into the mortice, the wedge is pressed against the bottom of the mortice and forced into the slot in the tennon. Hidden wedge. I have never done it. Just read about it. Don't know if it's good for doors.

-Paul


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

I may have to try that Paul but I better get it right on the first try.


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## EdWeber (Jun 17, 2021)

Your door doesn't sound very big. You can tongue & groove the panels and glue it up solid, so long as you leave enough room for expansion in the frame. The one piece panel will make the entire door stiffer than several loose pieces. 
Titebond three will work fine outdoors as long as it's not submerged. 
As other have said, I don't know what exactly your "treated" wood is. Check the Titebond page or email them to see if it will hold


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## JIMMIEM (Feb 5, 2016)

I made a similar type of door. I made the panel(s) out of 1/2" AZEK PVC. You can buy PVC in sheets up to 4' X 8 ' 
....not inexpensive.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

Are you using PT wood because the door is in close proximity to the ground and/or will get wet often? This might be one place that I would use Gorilla (polyurethane) glue instead of TB3. I might even use construction adhesive. Both are more waterproof than TB3 and will probably work better with the PT lumber. If not in close proximity the ground AND frequently wet, PT lumber may not be necessary.


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

As I research glues those two keep coming up. The door will be very close to the ground but I may use some sort of threshold or drip cap combination mostly to keep varmints out but also limit direct contact. The door is only about 4 1/2 feet high and I must bend over to enter and then stairs give more headroom. The house has a very wide soffit which is great but no gutters so some splash from dripping will happen 









This is what the old girl looks like and has been there for more than fifty years so I think I will be fine with PT and a sealer. If not it can always be redone with cedar or cypress when my skills level improves. Heck if water starts to cause problems I may even just take a piece of plywood siding and screw it over the frame and buy some time. I am getting older so it may just need to be someone else's problem at that point anyway. Thank you for all the good in put folks. Some progress Pics.


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

I opted to leave the panels floating.









Only major problem in the glue up was realizing after it was too late that I lacked a clamp long enough to pull the door square. I had to keep bouncing on the corner off the style bottoms to adjust as close as I could. I think I ended up to within a 1/32" but was running out off open time so I had to just clamp it up and leave the final adjustments to plane and saw later on. A jamb to hold it is next.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

Looks great. When I need a longer clamp, I usually just hook 2 clamps together. It may not work in every situation but I can usually get it to work if I hold my mouth right. If that doesn't work, a piece of rope I can twist or even a bungee cord can work too. You might have to put a nail or screw into it to hook the rope or bungee to.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

It won't help you now, but when I glue up a residential door, I glue the stile (either one) to the kick rail and ensure it's square. Once that sets, I continue by setting the panel in place (I use Space Balls, so it can't be slid in), and gluing the lock rail, ensuring it's square. Then repeat the process for the upper panel and the top rail. At that point, I attach the opposite stile. I find it's easier to maintain square along the way than to try to pull it square after the fact.

It's much less stressful than trying to glue the door and make it square in one operation.


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

Looking good. What kind of glue?

Even though its pressure treated I would put a sheet metal drip flashing over the top.

The bottom is going to get splashed no matter what you do.


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

> Looking good. What kind of glue?
> 
> Even though its pressure treated I would put a sheet metal drip flashing over the top.
> 
> ...


Tite Bond III. 
I am going to seal & paint both the top and bottom edges, painters often ignore both and it is a leading cause of warping and failure. I will likely make a frame facia around the door jamb so the door will be slightly inset but may incorporate a drip cap into that piece too. It is also tucked inset from the siding so the top should stay dry on top.


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