# Who said you can't end a thread?



## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

Recently, someone mentioned that wouldn't it be nice for the author to be able to end a thread. Well I guess you can't but here's a major alteration anyway….

The post that was here is now not here. Movin' on.


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## PurpLev (May 30, 2008)

good call Daniel!


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## ShipWreck (Feb 16, 2008)

Yep…... good call. No sense in having a passion turn around and bite you.


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## wildbill001 (Mar 2, 2011)

I would maintain there is nothing wrong at all about maintaining a healthy respect for the saw, with or without the blade-guard.

Also I feel that a cumbersome guard has the POTENTIAL to cause more harm than good. Don't let the guard lull you into a false sense of security. You may just end up at the ER wonder how this could have happend-I was using the guard…..

Bill


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

I've always had respect for moving blades, table saw, router, jointer, etc. I can't imagine anyone becoming complacent with a table saw. Because of the nature of the blade there are very few accidental cuts on table saws. the blade 'hooks' usually cause amputations or close to it. I never, never take a spinning blade for granted. 40,000 able saw accidents a year. Nearly right up there with the number of automobile deaths per year. Nothing to sneeze at for sure.


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## timbit2006 (Jan 6, 2012)

When I was doing my first year Joinery at the college, the saws had some old Beisemeyer overarm guards that actually caused more danger for me that without. I don't know whether they were poorly setup or it was a flaw in the design. They were so wide you couldn't safely rip 6" between the fence and blade. The guard got in the way of my hand holding the pushstick and it was very hard to keep the workpiece from pivoting into the blade. I do hope Beisemeyer improved their guard.


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## toeachhisown (Eddie) (Mar 30, 2011)

i got a old jet i picked up at a pawn shop dont even have a splitter on it .looked all over for the original but this one was to old i guess ,but got one ordered from i think its shark guard hope to have it soon they make as you order.i done had a couple kick backs .the saw stop is my next major item to get ,i am fearful of tablesaws .i rodeoed for a long time in my younger years road saddle bronks but mostly bull rode table saw is like bull rideing its just a matter of time .


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

I'm a blade guard user. My current saw is from Europe and
the arbor speed is faster than American saws - without the
guard it spits a lot of sawdust towards the operator making
rip cuts. The airborne particle factor is just one more
reason to use a guard.


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## wildbill001 (Mar 2, 2011)

Please don't get me wrong. If you like and use the guard, that is totally good for me. And I certainly didn't want to imply, Craftsman (love that, btw), that you are or were complacent. Just wanted to point out that just because there is a guard on a saw doesn't make it safe. I've seen quite a few people do some really dangerous stuff with a table-saw with a guard thinking, "Ah, I'll be okay."

Right up there with, "Here, hold my beer" and "Hey ya'll, watch this…"

Bill W


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

No offense taken Wildbill. I've gotten too close to the blade on occasion myself. The hood really isn't that important I'd think compared to the riving knife and anti kickback teeth on this one. In fact, to make it easier for close cuts, I might remove the rivet that swivels the hood up and down and replace it with a removable pin. That way, when I need to I can just remove the hood but leave the knife. Once and awhile I make an enclosed cut were the blade doesn't protrude from the wood. For that I'll have to remove the entire thing.


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## knotscott (Feb 27, 2009)

You might be surprised how much more easily a piece of wood will glide past a good sharp thin kerf blade (a waxed table top is a plus too). That DW construction blade isn't one of their better offerings.


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

I've got a freud thin kerf blade. I'd been cutting pine lately to make screen doors. I rarely use pine and hate the resins that deposit. I keep this older dewalt blade for ripping pine boards and other stuff that I don't want my good blades in; plywood and such.


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## sandhill (Aug 28, 2007)

Daniel, I get the same way when I have to use my Delta cabinet saw but its only 5 years old. I had been thinking of getting and using a "power feeder" they are only a few hundred dollars compared to thousands for Saw Stop. Just in case you have not thought of that option.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Hey Danial
I hate guards because their such a pain to remove, I may just pay the price some day if a tooth comes flying off and hits me between the eyes. I think your wise to take the precaution but I just can't bring myself to do it. If only all guards came off as easily as Saw Stops.


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## mcase (Oct 31, 2009)

Dancing with the Devil? Why Demonize Sawstop? A really, really bright guy working in his garage figures out a practical and reliable system for saving people from table saw injuries. He then gets stonewalled by all the big manufacturers. So he designs the nicest North American style saw available and launches a manufacturing business from the ground up. The Industrial version was leagues better than anything available at the time and is equal to or better than the new Unisaw. Now his product is smoking the competition. Capitalism at its best. Ok, its that lawsuit OSHA stuff isn't it? Yeah capitalism at its worst. But believe me its nothing Delta or Powermatic wouldn't do if they had bought the technology instead of trying to suppress it. However, that does not have anything to do the saw. Notice that the owners all love it? Normally we only pay attention to criticism from owners. All this non-owner criticism is crazy. We don't pay attention to non-owner criticism with other products. So keep it simple. Its a quality product with proven safety technology that surpasses anything else out there. Your waiting for the old one to die. I know that feeling, but its not just the safety. The upgrade will make you happy everyday. I replaced a later model PM 66 with an industrial SS five years ago and I'm still happy about it.


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

Ah, Mcase…. I think you've misread. I'm a proponent of Sawstop. Wish I had one. I will have one someday. Dancing with the devil was about putting the blade guard back on after all these years. It's the devil in that to gain some protection you've got to be inconvenienced by having it in the way.


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## ssnvet (Jan 10, 2012)

Boy, someone got their panties all bunched up today, eh.

Read the OP again and I think you'll see that "dancing with the Devil" was a reference to using a TS without a blade guard. That and the OP's specific comment that he would like to have a Saw Stop…

Reading and thinking…. the great lost arts!

That said…. I try to keep the blade guard on my old Sears contractor saw. Once I fussed with it for a couple hours…. I finally got it aligned just right and if I pull the gaurd to run my sled, it seems to index back into position pretty accurately.


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## Bagtown (Mar 9, 2008)

ssnvet said "Reading and thinking…. the great lost arts!"

How true.


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## doordude (Mar 26, 2010)

craftsman, it's like you say,it's really the reaving knife that will make the most difference.

if you had the money, would you buy the sawstop over a jet, delta, or powermatic?
these saws have a lot of safety features compared to older saws,like yours.
the saw stop is unique.


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

Right now, as far as I'm concerned, because of the safety features, it's the only choice. That's what I told my 27 yr old nephew when he asked about getting a saw. 40 years of woodworking ahead of him and 10 fingers. Could I say any different? Fortunately, when he got the sawstop I was pleased to see that it was a well made precision piece of machinery.

Please, this isn't a 'let's start a sawstop argument'. That's been done to death on several posts.


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## doordude (Mar 26, 2010)

my comment was't a pro or con on the sawstop argument. i was just asking your well sought after opinion.
i haven't made up my mind at all yet.i'm 57 years old with all ten digits,thus far.but if my son, would use this tool; i would be inclined to have a sawstop for the same reason you told your nephew.
i'm sorry you took my question as part of the ongoing argument.


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## ShipWreck (Feb 16, 2008)

If I ever buy another stationary or portable table saw, it will be a SawStop. My Ridgid portable is truly a great job site saw, but it's not in SawStop's league….... not even close.


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

Doordude: No please no.. I wasn't offended. In fact my last comment wasn't even about you or anyone else's post. I just thought I'd mention it as every thread on sawstop has started a "government wants to control my life" argument. It had absolutely nothing to do with you although I can see where you might have thought so as it was right after yours.


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

Putting the guard back seems like a very reasonable thing to do. I have a very similar one and use it whenever I can. I like your idea of replacing the hood swivel with a removable pin. Sometimes when I want to hold the hood up above the fence, I will use a small clamp on the top of the splitter.

It looks like you would have to enlarge the opening in your extension table in order to tilt the blade with the guard in place.


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

Good observation Chuck. I don't cut angles much on a table saw so I think I'd just remove the whole thing if I needed to do that. The back of the unit isn't attached to the tilting mechanism anyway as the angle Iron that holds the extension table blocks it.


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## BobM001 (Jan 8, 2012)

"But for now, old hooded snaggletooth will have to do."
First and foremost, EYE PROTECTION. With a carbide saw blade you are "staring down the gun barrel". When sawing, *NEVER, EVER,* take your eyes off that spinning blade. I just bought a Bosch 4100-09 for a portable. Can't very well take my stationary on a jobsite. I invested in a second rip fence for it. On top of that I installed the mounting rail for a set of the Board Buddy yellow wheels. They work marvelous to keep the work piece pressed against the fence and held down to the table. *USE PUSH BLOCKS/STICKS!!!* Now I'm going to commit the "ultimate faux pas". Guards, I don't use them. They obstruct the view of that spinning blade. I do use a riving knife and anti kickback pawls. If sawing a bevel. I'm making sure that I'm not standing behind the "low side" of the blade. I caught a piece in the gut ONCE. The leather apron paid for itself. That won't happen again.

As for the whole concept of "Saw Stop" I see it's merit. I also see its cost. The inventor's recent actions with the state of "Mexifornia" to legislate HIS product being installed on ALL table saws sold in that state just falls in line with Proposition 65. If you live there, you have my sympathy. Legislating common sense might be better applied to those doing the legislating. What's next? "Drill Stop", "Router Stop", or "Sander Stop". I know! Forget about wood. Make everything out of molded plastic. Oh but then you might burn yourself. Sure hope this inventor doesn't get into the firearms industry.


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## miles125 (Jun 8, 2007)

I don't confuse accomplishments achieved by people who accept and welcome risks with people who overly avoid risks. They are two philosophically different types of people with fundamentally different approaches to the world they live in.

Bull riders earn my upmost respect. But surely that respect would diminish if they chose to use a bullstop.


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

"Bull riders earn my upmost respect. But surely that respect would diminish if there was a bullstop."

Like some sports, with boxing people secretly hope to see a brain numbing knockout, Nascar fans hope to see the ultimate crash, and Bull riding fans wonder if anyone will be gored to death today.

A bullstop would destroy the sport. Few people except a few purists who enjoy the technique would go. I don't think sawstop would destroy woodworking. Do you go into the shop wondering if today will be the day the blade gets you? Today alone it will be for an average of 109 people in the US according to federal statistics derived from hospital records.
Sawstop owners would be like people who ride the bull and know they won't get hurt. A bull stop, if possible, that cut in before a bull rider died would be a smart thing. Don't you think?


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## ShipWreck (Feb 16, 2008)

I do not see how the added safety of a SawStop could possibly diminish the enjoyment of woodworking.

I guess I could take the riving knife & blade gaurd off and award myself points for how close I can ride my fingers to the spinning blade?


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## miles125 (Jun 8, 2007)

""A bull stop, if possible, that cut in before a bull rider died would be a smart thing. Don't you think?""

Well that would be totally missunderstanding how risks plays a roll in multiplying reward and accomplishment in any endeavor.


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

I used to be bored brushing my teeth. Then I developed a toothpaste dispenser that has a 1 in 10,000 probability of dispensing poisonous paste.

Now I feel such a wonderful sense of accomplishment twice a day!


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## toeachhisown (Eddie) (Mar 30, 2011)

*miles125*
that may have been a poor example for heaving a guard on a saw .what i meant was the odds of a accident is not in my favor of getting hurt.when i rode they never used protective vest like they do now to aide from getting gourde ,stock contractor were required to have the bulls horn sawed to the size of a quarter ,a coin, now some riders wear a face mask now didnt then.the part of a bull between its horn on the top of its head is as hard as a pice of purple heart wood and with that much muscle in their neck you can see a blow to ones face is devastating . have seen a riders face destroyed before where it broke all bones in their face. having this safety has not taken any thing from the sport. the only saw stop in this event was the clowns they will give their lives to help get a bull off of you.so in a sense they do have a stop.but i knew and any one that rode knew what was at stake when getting on a animal of this size .you use the fear and atridilen to aide in it.when i turn on my saw it is there and i dont have a clown to pull it away from me. most injurers in the sport is not the bulls fault its the rider getting complacent with the safety of riding you just get so use to the fear and get to a comfort zone that is dangerous there is a golden rule in bull riding a basic rule your body follow your eyes just the centracal force is trying to throw away but keeping your eyes on the bulls head and shoulders will aide in keeping the rest of the body there.one time i took my eye off this bull because he was getting close to a iron pipe fence in the arena just a glance to see and ended up in this fence .it wasnt the bulls fault it was mine knew better. a saw could do the same thing not the saw s fault it will proable be mine so i want all the edge i can get to put the odds in my favor.im sure the clowns would like to have a stop bull :0)


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## miles125 (Jun 8, 2007)

Don't get me wrong. We all have thresholds of how much risk we'll accept while doing things. I certainly do. The issue is one of current trends to legislate and mandate levels of acceptable risks that completely ignores individual liberty in choosing our own threshold for ourselves.

When the only tablesaw you can buy in California has a sawstop mechanism, some will view it as a safer California. But that would be putting lost fingers ahead of lost liberty for people and the two are not even remotely comparable. And when enough liberty has been taken away, you wont find a more unsafe place to be.


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## ShipWreck (Feb 16, 2008)

Miles125 said:

Don't get me wrong. We all have thresholds of how much risk we'll accept while doing things. I certainly do. The issue is one of current trends to legislate and mandate levels of acceptable risks that completely ignores individual liberty in choosing our own threshold for ourselves.

When the only tablesaw you can buy in California has a sawstop mechanism, some will view it as a safer California. But that would be putting lost fingers ahead of lost liberty for people and the two are not even remotely comparable. And when enough liberty has been taken away, you wont find a more unsafe place to be.

I will totally agree with you on that part.

V/R…...... John


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## toeachhisown (Eddie) (Mar 30, 2011)

i have lost most of my respect for most politians ,the last 20 years r so of my job before i retired was in the political realm.they seem to have gone to the highest bidder.i dont keep up with it anymre not that i dont care just that from time to time i check out Washington and states politics just by habit and its not changed any just different songs and different dances.i tend to agree with this old man up the road from me he runs a cabnit shop .i go there to see a friend that works there only when they are between jobs are on break. we both study the hebrew language and my friend has a collage degree good with a study on this but likes working there and the old man pays them very well .just to give you a idea of this shop .i have lived here for most of my life and had passed this old building many times thought it was a wear house turn out to be a shop.i told this old man why dont he put a sign up .he quickly told me he dont need to advertise hes got all the work he needs and if you put out a good job it will always send a job back.told him i was remolding my kitchen and said i could not afford his cabinets to go to this outlet store and get some which i did do.hes 80 something years old and i belive he could out work most of the hands that work for him he had a bandage on one of his fingers where a saw had nipped it .i said i bet you wish you had had a stop saw .it was the wrong thing for me to have said he told me he didnt need a bunch of idiots in Washington r the supreme court to tell him anything r to pass a law i have my own laws and his was to have one that he has already got one at his home got it the first year it came out and that as soon as they get one for a 7 hp motor hell have one in his shop.said his cut was caused by a board falling in to a big boxed fan that made a loud noise and he jumped a bit and it nicked his finger.he was mad by now and guess just wanted to vent his frustration out.i hear you and my friend talk all this bible stuff then he went into a abortion issue dont need no law there either i got one its against my law i don't care what those judges say they can pass all the laws they want i got mine already and the freedom to use em.it was one of those times i wish i had not said a thing


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## 47phord (Apr 10, 2012)

I guess my half-baked philosophy starts with: if you are afraid of something, you shouldn't be using it. Granted, I think the Sawstop is a great idea, but half of the injuries people have mentioned here wouldn't be prevented by it's technology; it stops the blade if you stick your big dumb fingers into it, it doesn't prevent kick-back or stop teeth from flying off of the blade. This post was about Craftsman putting the guard back on his TS, and more power to him. I've never used the blade guard on mine and probably never will because, for me anyways, the hassle outweighs the benefit. I've never seen the advantages to using one other than it keeps the odd piece of crap from flying off and hitting me in the face, which is why I try and never stand directly behind the blade and always wear safety glasses. Actually, the guard that came with the saw I use now is a two piece unit that doesn't even prevent that. The point I am trying to make is no matter how much safety gets engineered into a tool, people will find a way to hurt themselves with it. I'll skip the guard stick with respect for the tool.


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## toeachhisown (Eddie) (Mar 30, 2011)

you are right 47 ford just got side tracked my apologies Dan


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## doordude (Mar 26, 2010)

shipwreck, don't test fate by putting your finger next to that blade.
you mess with the Bull you might get the horns.
i don't want government mandating anything or as little as posible. and i know i'm leaving in the wrong state to be saying this.let the indvidual make his own choice.


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## EEngineer (Jul 4, 2008)

Now his product is smoking the competition. Capitalism at its best.

If his product is "smoking the competition", then why is he lobbying so hard to make his technology mandatory?


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## BobM001 (Jan 8, 2012)

You all should READ THIS

AND THIS

Steve Gass has "opened Pandora's Box" in the lawsuit dept. The only ones benefitting so far are HIM and the LAWYERS.


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

"Now his product is smoking the competition. Capitalism at its best.

If his product is "smoking the competition", then why is he lobbying so hard to make his technology mandatory?"

Because Capitalism says he can. He can right? He's in a capitalist country right. So it lets him.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

It never hurts to pay attention to safety as long as Murphy's Law lurks in the background.

helluvawreck
https://woodworkingexpo.wordpress.com


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## TheDane (May 15, 2008)

I'm debating ordering a SawStop.

I have a Jet WorkShop 708100, and it has been a good worker. I upgraded the fence, added a Shark Guard, etc., so why think about replacing it?

There are two answers … one is ten, the other is twelve years old.

I just retired 3 months ago and we recently relocated to be closer to our daughters and grandchildren. Both of my grandsons are interested in woodworking and can now spend a lot more time with me now that I am no longer 'far away grandpa'. The twelve year old has helped me on a number of shop projects during breaks from school, and they both know the first rule of woodworking in grandpa's shop ("Don't get blood on the wood.").

The new house has a huge garage, and I'm building a new shop in the 3rd bay. It will be insulated, heated, and I'm planning on putting in a 100-amp subpanel, so maybe this is the time to upgrade to a cabinet saw. If I go that route, I may pull the trigger on a SawStop. I realize they could still get hurt, but IMHO, a SawStop would really improve the odds of avoiding a serious injury.

-Gerry


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

Gerry, under those circumstances I don't know how you could make any other decision. I told the same thing to my nephew and my daughter's boyfriend both in their late 20's. 10 fingers, and 40 years of woodworking to go. The odds of an accident are much bigger for them considering the time they have to use it. To me there is no other choice for them. And that's exactly how I worded it.
My old 'snaggletooth' is still doing the job. If it ever dies a sawstop is in my future. But, a year or two or more from now will I look back and say, "If I had done it before would I still have that finger?". Dunno. Time will tell.

Tip: If you cut yourself, nothing seems to stop the blood from staining the wood. Here is what I do. I keep a roll of electrical tape. Wrap it reasonably tight and cut it by pulling it after the last wrap. It stops the blood cold. Just keep in mind that no longer how long you have it on the flow will start when you remove it as if the cut was just made. I've saved and been able to continue working on many a project using this method.


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## EEngineer (Jul 4, 2008)

Because Capitalism says he can. He can right? He's in a capitalist country right. So it lets him.

Hahahaha! Another product of our superb educational system. Go back to school and learn about capitalism!


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

EEngineer. Capitalism
: an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market.

And in this market he is allowed to lobby both in congress, and wallstreet to get someone to think he has a better widget.

It may not fit the definition of capitalism that we'd all like but it fits the one that does exist. You may be a bit naive to think that capitalism doesn't include this. And, ah, I am very well educated. Your comment is a bit condescending and arrogant and it makes your happy looking icon look like you know it all and laugh at the little people you may look down on. I'm sure this isn't true but that's the impression.

You should have commented on my hairline. I don't care about that. My education, on the other hand… well, that's a sore spot. I've got a lot of time and $$ in it.


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## stan3443 (Mar 3, 2012)

I agree 47phord respect the tool


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## Viktor (Jan 15, 2009)

Craftsman on the lake, 
I think the reason for labeling Saw Stop founder as anti-capitalist stems from the approach he took to gain his unfair advantage over competitors. What's the deal with petitioning the legislature? Can't he stick with capitalism and simply buy the lawmakers just like all normal people do. That will surely get the critics off his back. I mean you hardly ever hear certified freedom lovers vowing never to purchase another GMC truck or an ounce of gas because those companies buy favors on Capitol Hill on a regular basis. Perhaps, when Saw Stop grows big enough Gus will do just that and everyone will sigh with relief.

… and I'm so sorry for helping to hijack your thread.


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## vonhagen (Dec 5, 2011)

before useing a riving knife the plate and kerf must be right for the knife to do its job. i am not a saw stop person for a few reasons #1 its made in taiwan #2 when that cartridge fires and abruptly stops that blade what do you think it does to the arbor? #3 it only gives a sense of false security and i wouldn't trust it just like i dont trust a remington model 700 rifle safety as thousands of people have been killed or mamed thinking i got the safety on and boom it goes off just by touching the bolt and the 700 has been around since the 40's saw stop hasnt been around all that long and like remington how many lawsuits have they really had, we may never know unless 60 minutes does a show on it like they did on the 700 and i thought the 700 was one of the finest actions made?


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## BobM001 (Jan 8, 2012)

Interesting that you bring up the Remintion Model 700. There again CARDINAL rules of gun safety were broken when these injuries/deaths occurred. Just like the "cardinal rule" of a table saw "NEVER TAKE YOUR EYES OFF THE BLADE". If your "1000 yd stare" is at the leading edge of that spinning blade, how then does your hand go there? What's next? A "Mill Stop" for a Bridgeport? A "Skil Stop" for a circular saw? What's to stop you from "driving over" your hand there? *COMMON SENSE AND SAFETY!* How many TS users crank the blade to the bottom when finished with cuts? I do just so that sharp muthuh huckuh isn't sticking up to perhaps run into it.

I do not know the entire workings of the blade elevation system on a Saw Stop. I think I see the "peg" that rides in a large hole of the aluminum "brake shoe" that disconnects the gear train for the quadrant to elevate the arbor when the brake shoe collapses. He says "no effect on the blade". Really? What effect does that sudden slam downward by the "angular momentum" have on the elevation system? I do see that the inventer "borrowed" the same technology used in ground fault circuit interrupters(GFCI) to operate his system. But what if the operator is totally insulated from ground so that there is no path for current to flow? GFCIs "compare" the current flow between neutral and ground. If the current increases to ground it decreases to neutral causing a trip. Stay "grounded" I guess?


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

Don't know much about guns but with all this gun talk, what if someone made a remington or whatever that was pretty much guaranteed not to fire if a chlld were in the sights? Do you think you'd buy that one instead of the ones that can kill children by accident? Or do you think that common sense should prevail and for those who don't have common sense their children deserve to get shot? If someone wanted to legislate a child proof gun would you think it was a bad idea?
How about a saw that can't cut your hand off?


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## EEngineer (Jul 4, 2008)

…by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market.

A fiat by government law does not meet the above criteria. In fact, by defintiion, this more closely fits the defintion of socialism:
any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and *administration of the means of production and distribution of goods*

And in this market he is allowed to lobby both in congress, and wallstreet to get someone to think he has a better widget.

And thus you have misunderstood the argument here completely! Stephen Gass is lobbying the CPSC to make the use of his technology mandatory! By law, no one would be able to sell any table saw in this country unless it used (and paid Stephen Gass for) Sawstop technology. This is not capitalism!

My education, on the other hand… well, that's a sore spot. I've got a lot of time and $$ in it.

All wasted, eh? [I am kidding!, just kidding!}


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## BobM001 (Jan 8, 2012)

Why on earth would you have a "child in the sights"? The issue with the Reminton 700 occurred when the safety was in the "off" position. That only happens when you are ready to fire or when manually unloading the rifle. It also occurred when a rule of safety was broken. "ALWAYS HAVE THE MUZZLE POINTED IN A SAFE DIRECTION". As for "child proofing" a firearm, it's called keeping them where children cannot access them. I suggest that you read the "axioms" of SAFE handling of firearms. Gun safety Those that do not practice these axioms have no business owning or handling a firearm. NO EXCEPTIONS! BTW, it was determined that the incidents with the Model 700 could have been mitigated had these rules been followed. It also found that triggers on some of the rifles in question had been "modified". By that I mean a "trigger job" to lessen the pull weight. When that is done a "bolt slam test" has to be done to insure the rifle WILL NOT FIRE when the bolt is closed on a loaded chamber with the safety "OFF". None of these incidents ever happend when the safety was in the "ON" position. Another thing. When hunting in rough terrain where the chance of falling might occurr while walking, you NEVER have a round in the chamber.
The Remington Model 700 still is one of the finest rifles made in the USA. It is the basis for the M24 rifle used by snipers in the US military and police forces. Good enough for them, good enough for me.

Mind you I have NOTHING against "Saw Stop". It is purely a matter of CHOICE. If it makes you feel safer to have it, go for it. But with that "comfort factor" comes cost. A cost that some feel they can do without just by practicing SAFE tool operation practices. Those that have been around LONG BEFORE Saw Stop. Those that have been injured forgot or didn't practice these safety measures. With ANYTHING dangerous comes a level of PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. When hands/fingers were cut off, someone did something STUPID. As you know, "YOU CAN'T FIX STUPID!"


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

EEngineer:
"And thus you have misunderstood the argument here completely! Stephen Gass is lobbying the CPSC to make the use of his technology mandatory! By law, no one would be able to sell any table saw in this country unless it used (and paid Stephen Gass for) Sawstop technology. This is not capitalism!"

Nearly every product you buy, you have to pay extra to pay for royalties to people who have patents on part of it. It's government regulated. You and I are paying for a government mandated addition to a product every day.

Bob,
"Why on earth would you have a "child in the sights"? The issue with the Reminton 700 occurred when the safety was in the "off" position. That only happens when you are ready to fire or when manually unloading the rifle. "

Of course you're right. That's why children are never killed with guns either accidently or on purpose. It just can't happen. The safety devices on guns prevent that.


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## BobM001 (Jan 8, 2012)

EEngineer, 
And thus you have misunderstood the argument here completely! Stephen Gass is lobbying the CPSC to make the use of his technology mandatory! By law, no one would be able to sell any table saw in this country unless it used (and paid Stephen Gass for) Sawstop technology. This is not capitalism!

You're right! It's *CRONY CAPITALISM!!!!!*

Don't know much about guns

You are SO RIGHT! In fact your "knowledge" with respect to firearms and their safety is laughable if you think a "child identification scanner" could be incorporated into their design. If children are killed/injured via a firearm it is 100% due to negligence of the owner of said firearm. We're back to PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. Why is it that some people think that some "magic device" can replace it?

Go buy your Saw Stop and forget about firearms. Saw up a nice piece of white ash and turn a Louisville Slugger for home defense.


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## knothead (Aug 4, 2007)

Yeah THANKS!

I read your post several days ago and moved on, and then I had MY first tablesaw "Come to Jesus" moment.

Did not get cut, but I was making stub tenons and must have bobbled the piece a bit and the kickback was so quick and surprising that, honest to "Insert Deity of choice here" aside from the noise of the piece striking the wall behind me and the smack on the pinky knuckle I took as it exited the table, that I didn't even notice until after I stopped and shut down the saw to see what had just happened. The piece has the classic tablesaw circle gouged into it and even red paint from the side of the swablade in the gouge. It really isn't a mtter of IF something will happen it is WHEN something DOES happen. My pinky is sore but still all there and my little piece is now stuck to the top of the tablesaw fence to remind me to be careful. Whew! That'll get the old heart rate up for a few minutes

Chris


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## knothead (Aug 4, 2007)

*BobM001*

From your previous reply: But what if the operator is totally insulated from ground so that there is no path for current to flow? GFCIs "compare" the current flow between neutral and ground. If the current increases to ground it decreases to neutral causing a trip. Stay "grounded" I guess?

I have a SawStop and around it on the floor is wood - so no ground there, the brake system still operates but based on capacitance. The confidence test is to touch the side of the blade (obviously with the saw NOT running) with your finger and see that the detection system works by flashing the red light. Doesn't matter where I am standing, if I am within reach of my saw I am not grounded and the system works. I know there are many Saw Stop haters out there and I do not intend to start a debate with someone who has made up their mind but just the same I am happy with mine and you are happy without it, the debate ends there.

Chris


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## ShipWreck (Feb 16, 2008)

You guys can beat this thread till the cows come home and nothing good will be accomplished in the end.

The OP only meant to remind us aware of some basic safety practices.

How bout some pie!


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

"Don't know much about guns

You are SO RIGHT! In fact your "knowledge" with respect to firearms and their safety is laughable if you think a "child identification scanner" could be incorporated into their design. If children are killed/injured via a firearm it is 100% due to negligence of the owner of said firearm. We're back to PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. Why is it that some people think that some "magic device" can replace it?"

Bob, It was a hypothetical. Everyone knows there is no magic device that can pick out a child to stop a gun from firing on him. It was, a 'what if'. No one thinks a magic device can do that No one's that stupid. Don't you know that? And if I reference the Easter Bunny I hope you don't feel I think he really exists.

You're defense of firearms is laughable. No one attacked you, calm down. I'm glad you like guns. Good for you. Go shoot something. Have fun.


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

Daniel - I am sorry that this fell apart like it did.

Now can we use this thread to discuss ice cream? *So far*, that seems to be one of the few topics that does not degenerate.

OK, so yesterday I was eating ice cream in the shop and spilled some on the controller of my SawStop. Does anyone know how to clean this out? Should I just shoot it and put it out of its misery? What type of firearm would be best for this task?


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## Dusty56 (Apr 20, 2008)

Hi Dan , I did the same thing with a couple of my former postings quite some time ago : )
This is one example.
http://lumberjocks.com/projects/10507 LOL


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## jeepturner (Oct 3, 2010)

Chuck said "OK, so yesterday I was eating ice cream in the shop and spilled some on the controller of my SawStop. Does anyone know how to clean this out? Should I just shoot it and put it out of its misery? What type of firearm would be best for this task?" 
Now I laughed so hard at that it brought water to my eyes.

How a thread goes sideways, and it doesn't matter what the OP intended. Just mention the S* S**, guns, or mention your spiritual outlook. 
Sorry it happened to your thread too Craftsman. I really wish it wasn't so. You do good work, you think things through and I believe you are a stand up guy. Thanks for your post. It gives me a pause to think.


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## vonhagen (Dec 5, 2011)

i watched the 94 year old designer talk about the flaw in the remington 700, it had nothing to do with modification as bob m001 doesnt know what hes talking about. the marine corps did their testing on 60 minutes and showed how the gun would fire with the safety on just by trying to eject the shell by lifting the bolt and no finger near the trigger. the original designer said he brought up the flaw that would cost 50 cents per rifle to fix and remington dissreguarded his letter and the rifle stayed this way for over 60 years. case in point one woman was unloading her gun with the safety on and the rifle discharged and shot thru their motor home and killed their son. remington has been secretly paying lawsuits for decades until 60 minutes exposed it on tv. now i dont care how many hot dog tests they have done on a saw stop i would not trust it to save me. staying very focused on your cut and never jamming lumber fast thru the saw and inspecting your lumber for checks , warp, twist, crown, and cup should all be taken into consideration before ripping, ripping is the most often injury maker in the shop with hardwood and the most kickbacks. i would trust a cheap power feed motor as it will protect you from kick back, give more accurate cuts, and you dont have to get near the blade and a power feed can work on several machines including the edge sander . and you can climb cut with a power feed with ease . i always use a riving knife but over head guards are a hazard imo so i dont use them. i do always stand way to the left of the blade lot in line with it. saw stop is just a joke imo and will probably just fade away like a bad fart. saw safe my friends


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## vonhagen (Dec 5, 2011)

as far as making a law that all saws must have this is a big pile of crap and will never happen. do you think martin, or streibig, altendorf, scmi, and on and on will put it on their machines? and what about the scoring blade? or blades over 18 inches, you would have to have something a bit stronger than a co2 cartridge to stop large tooling. in a large scale shop you cant make money with out large high performance machines that are either german or italian made because of the resolution they give and i dont think these company's will ever be adding a devise like this. my altendorf has disk brakes anyway and 3 kills and the blade stops i 1 second so if i hear or see a problem while cutting i just hit the kill and the brake goes on. the weinig moulder has it to and our widebelt as well. just keep your fingers away from the tooling. its called focus


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## doordude (Mar 26, 2010)

thanks for the fun CRAFTSMAN; time to move on, i'm with you…


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

The sad truth is that all the fun was legislated out of ice cream long ago. Here are a few examples


In Newark, NJ it is illegal to sell ice cream after 6pm unless the customer has a note from his or her doctor.


In Oregon, ice cream may not be eaten on Sundays.


In several part of the US, it is illegal to carry an ice cream cone in your pocket. In some localities the law only applies to back pockets or Sundays.


It is illegal to put ice cream on cherry pie in Kansas.


In Rosemead, CA, eating ice cream in public with a fork is prohibited.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

"How bout some pie!"

"Now can we use this thread to discuss ice cream?"

My God.

I'm so proud of you ….

I could cry ….. !

Carry on. I'll tuck my napkin into my shirt collar, and be RIGHT there !


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## Magnum (Feb 5, 2010)

You where right to put a Stop to this Post. It was turned into a bunch of Useless Dribble by some of the usual "Members" that like to hear themselves Talk and HIDE behind their Keyboards to Malign and Insult others comments.

Of course "THEY" are Always Right and "WE" are always wrong and "THEY" will never stop trying to Prove it. i.e. Their EGOS are in the Toilet.

There's too much of this Crap on here as it is.

Thank You: Rick


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## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

(original posters can always message us and ask that the posting be deleted…)


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

Thanks msDebbie but this way people know that something has ended. It wasn't nasty or anything, just getting pointless. Heck I actually contributed to some of the dribble.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

I'm making pasta with all kinds of vegetables, in a nice cheese sauce … serving it over brown rice … and drinking a bottle of Noveaux, with it.

So there.


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## longgone (May 5, 2009)

The original poster can end a thread by doing an edit and deleting the thread topic and no one can figure out what the thread is about..all they can do is babble on.


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## vonhagen (Dec 5, 2011)

the end. i just wanted to get the last word in.


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## toeachhisown (Eddie) (Mar 30, 2011)

wait wait Neil's got food at his place,dont end it yet and he's got Noveaux come we can babble on thur that.i know this tread was about PINK Floyd and another brick in the wall or was it AMERICAN PIE wait im on the wrong one


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## BobM001 (Jan 8, 2012)

FOGEDABOUT TABLE SAWS! *GO LASER*>


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## lysdexic (Mar 21, 2011)

The title caught my eye. So, I thought that I would check it out. Nice thread!


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