# First Estimate Too High?



## TDog (Apr 17, 2012)

OK, So I did an official paperwork and spreadsheet itemized estimate for a customer today.
It is for two solid pine 6 ft tall by 4 ft wide built in storage shelves and a wall organizer rack
for his garage storage room. It will all be sanded and stained. I plan on including a wooden back on both shelves.
In the picture is the style I am shooting for on a smaller scale…only the 4' wide by 6' tall set of two installed.










So I quoted the client including all materials needed and labor about $900.
I factored 4 eight hour days of labor to be sure I did not under figure my time.

Any experienced cabinet builders out there your experience is welcomed!

I am open to advice and if I am in the ball park on this or not as it is my first estimate for a job
and not working "by the hour".

Thanks for your input if you so chose?

Trying to Get R Done…


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## FirehouseWoodworking (Jun 9, 2009)

If you think that it would take you four days to build, then stick to your guns. Don't cheapen your bids because they are not accepted.n That is a slippery slope that you don't want to ride!

If you overbid and you get the job, you can always cut back on the final bill. I'm sure the customer would be elated and probably come back.

It's when you underbid and either have to suck it up or charge more than the bid that will lose you repeat customers.

Best of luck! Cheers!


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

Good advice from Dave.


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## TDog (Apr 17, 2012)

Dave thanks a bunch,

My uncle who is a professional cabinet maker for a while now encouraged me with similar words. You're so right as I am restoring a buffet right now and underbid it. Sucking it up is right. I must have sanded 3 hours today and that's my second day of prep work. Wood repairs tomorrow and then the stain etc. Took a lump on that one. I did not do a spread sheet itemized estimate and … ouch, but hopefully keeping the original bid with them and delivering a good finished piece of work will help with word of mouth and more jobs.

Still lovin woodworking though, Can't believe they pay me to do this…LOL

Thanks again


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## fge (Sep 8, 2008)

I normally charge 200.00 per LF for open book shelving up to 8' tall. Not every bid is identical and many factors exist that determine final price.


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## JGM0658 (Aug 16, 2011)

It all depends on the quality of job you plan to do. If you will be doing dados for the shelves, rabbets for the backs, and a truly impressive job of staining and finishing then $900 is a fair price. If you plan on using pocket holes or plugged screws on the sides and a quick stain finish job, then you over bid. I guess it all depened on what your customer requested.


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## TDog (Apr 17, 2012)

Jerry, did you say 200 dollars? Just checking. Want to get all the advice I can for the next time I work up an estimate. My client said they wanted shelves that would help the resale value of the house so I did not want to skimp on materials etc. I wanted to do them right and well the best that I can with good wood etc.


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## cabmaker (Sep 16, 2010)

You price is certainly inline. Your at 112.00 lf. I would probably bump it up another 20 to 32 per ft for the unknown. The unknown in this case is the additional waste you may not have allowed for using solid pine. On a deal that small you may experiance a 30 % plus waste factor. Sounds like a one day build for sure and a day for stain and finish with plenty of breaks. Good luck on it ! JB


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## TDog (Apr 17, 2012)

JGM0658

I'm planning on dados, and rabbets etc, the whole nine yards with a good sanding, preconditioning for stain, etc and good stain job with sturdy installation. I figure if he gets a few other quotes from full time professionals, it will make a difference also as I am doing a business start up and want to start it right with good quality sturdy work.

We'll see.


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## TDog (Apr 17, 2012)

Thanks JB, If I get the job,
I will have to put some updates on how it goes and some pics.

The above pic is just an idea for the customer I found on the internet.


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## JGM0658 (Aug 16, 2011)

I wish you luck TDog,


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## Puzzleman (May 4, 2010)

Don't get discouraged when you don't get a job you bid on.

If you did get every job you bid on, you probably aren't making any money as your bids are too low.
As Dave said above, you never want to underbid the job.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

I'd say you are too low, but a lot depends on how refined you are going
to make it look. Pine shelves can look real rustic with cupped boards
and pitch pockets and stain that looks like the pine was sprayed with
dirt… there's some ugly pine stuff out there and some people really
like it, so what your customer is expecting matters most.

Be sure you get the customer to sign-off on the material 
grade and the finish before you build the thing.


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## Domer (Mar 8, 2009)

I would agree with Loren. It seems pretty low to me. Let's assume you have $200 in material costs leaving you with $700 for 4 days work. That leaves you just over $20/hr with no overhead for the shop, utilities, time to get the materials and any problems you might encounter, etc.

Domer


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## renners (Apr 9, 2010)

How are you buying your pine? Rough sawn/pao/laminate sheet?

What depth is the unit?


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## Doss (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm just adding to what everyone else here has said because it's been solid advice so far.

Don't forget to factor in things like storage space at your shop, transporting the work to the site (if you build offsite) or transporting materials, etc.

If everyone begins accepting your bids without question as said above, chances are you're not charging correctly.

Quality takes time and money.

If or when you get this job, write down how you spent every minute. You'll quickly begin realizing where you are and aren't charging enough. For example, some people forget things like getting all the materials out and ready for finishing. You have to clear space. Set up the materials or project for finishing. Get all your finishing products out and mixed. Then you have the actual time spent finishing. That's followed by the clean up time. All those keep you from doing something else so all of them apply to finishing.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Tdog
Keep in mind pricing is different in different parts of the country so what ever input you get here may not be what you can get or charge. As for me your price might be in the ball park but once you throw finishing into the mix, that for me would add at least $350 because pine is a pain to finish, just the extra steps you take to prevent blotchyness will mean you may have as much time finishing this as it takes to build it depending how good you are at finishing.


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## TDog (Apr 17, 2012)

Pine is 1×12 x16 boards

Jim,

Great point on finishing with pine.
I'm working on setting up a good website with sample work and prices so all the discussion helps.
I want to get basic prices right on some basics like
A blanket chest, a shaker cupboard on a chest of drawers, a writing desk with three drawers, a rustic dining table, and a set of book shelves. Then build business based on quality work with all domestic lumber etc.
I'm making a sign this week to put by the sidewalk in the yard. This business on weekends and nights in the garage and school teaching during the day

Any profit in the craft shows and such?

Thanks to all for the input.


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## FirehouseWoodworking (Jun 9, 2009)

TDog,

That lump you took is called "EXPERIENCE" and she is quite the mistress. When I was in business, I kept a small notebook I called "EXPERIENCE". It was a sort of journal of lessons I learned along the way, both good and bad. Every once in a while, to get my head right, I go back through it.

It often kept me from making the same mistake twice!

Cheers!


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## Sawdust4Blood (Feb 16, 2010)

I can't count the number of people who have asked me to do a custom build for them and thought they should be able to get it for a "big box made in China" price. Best thing you can do when you run into one of those folks is to let them walk away when they find out how much custom really costs. Even if you lower your price some and get them to come up some, those are always the people who will never be happy in the end and you'll be stuck dealing with a pain-in-the-ass customer for a long time…. save yourself some headache and just let them go.


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## ssnvet (Jan 10, 2012)

for garage storage shelves…. I wouldn't think your potential customer would expect a French polish shellac finish….

opaque stains over a sprayed on sealler looks nice on pine, to my eye…

any ways… if I wanted something like that built custom for my garage… (assuming I had a garage) I would think $900 sounds like a pretty fair price.

FWIW, if our Millwork Dept. at work was to quote running that job out of Melamine…. I would expect to see a "cost" of about $300 for each of the two 4' units…. which would be marked up no less than 55%. But that doesn't include labor and mark up on the installation. But then again… they don't really deal with little jobs unless it's a favor for somebody.

Give them your price… observe their tone of voice (and if face to face, expression) when they hear it. If they balk, just say, I'm sorry but I can't really do it for less than that AND thank them for the opportunity to quote the job.

Shake dust off of sandles as you get back in your truck/van and drive home.


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## hhhopks (Nov 22, 2011)

Estimating is a tough job. You win some & will lose some. At least thats the way it work in the construction industry. I imagine it is the same for small detailed jobs. You have to justified your cost, based on your homework. You must be correct. If someone think it should be less, let them critique the worksheet. It is subject for debate but the other party must be able to justify their position. Too high is not a reason. Your cost is based on a specifications. Any cost reduction has to be followed with a reduction in the scope of work.

If there is an increase in scope of work, it is only fair that you get to adjust your price accordingly.

I hope this helps.


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## TDog (Apr 17, 2012)

Very helpful incite and points,

thanks yall


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## fge (Sep 8, 2008)

Yes, you should be at 200.00 LF at minimum based on your description. You maybe should be even higher considering you are doing it in solid lumber. Something like that should be done in furniture grade unfinished plywood that is stainable. The plywood edge would be dressed with a pine face frame stained to match. That is how I would advice building the unit at 200.00 LF. Considering you are using all solid lumber I would figure material cost and add my additional labor involved with working solid lumber. You might have glue ups and planing and a ugly amount of sanding involved. If doing it my way, u have minimal sanding because furniture grade ply does not need sanding. Your only sanding would be face frames.

If I were to build it, I would tell the customer my customary price, then likely add 50% to use solid lumber, while also educating my customer. Remember you are the professional and normally comers look to us to give them go direction based on good experience.. And my experience will show while building with solid lumber is stronger then ply, it is overkill. A strong ply unit properly dadoed/rabbeted will last a life time. Proper use of wood glue and fasteners and my units can be dropped from 10' high with no sustained damage.

So if customer agrees to ply, which they probably would or they would pay dearly, I would do the following process that will give supreme results every time:

Purchase lumber and unfinished furniture ply.

Unload material being carefull not to scratch scuff furniture plywood.

At the shop I would lay all my ply out horizontally, then apply stain coats immediately. Then apply finish coats, which we use lacquer. Note this is all done before any cutting.

Then cutting all parts out.
Then cut dado on RAS with finish side up. Y

I think you get the idea.


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## TDog (Apr 17, 2012)

Jerry,

Thanks for the advice on using stain grade plywood and face frames instead of solid wood all the way around on this type of job. The durability is what I was concerned about. And a big thanks for the process pointers on staining before cutting and cutting the joints ect.

I will be going this route on my next shelving projects for customers. It was all very helpful. The customer I gave the estimate to did not call back. But, there will be others. I have to build a file cabinet for my work now. 
Have fun working the wood…


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## renners (Apr 9, 2010)

Surpised you didn't get that job, I thought your price was too low. 
Perhaps your client thought it was too much job for a garage storage room.


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## Doss (Mar 14, 2012)

I think most people have no idea how much things cost when it comes to carpentry and custom furniture making.

In an effort to reduce my ever-growing workload my wife wanted to get a someone to come over and pretty much make exactly what is in TDog's first picture. I asked her how much she thought the estimate would be and she said I don't know… 3 to 500 bucks?

After I stopped laughing hysterically I let her know that she'd be lucky to find someone to do it under $1500 (at least someone who would do a good job).

When I tell people how much it costs to build a custom piece of furniture for them they usually look like they're in shock… and I'm not even that expensive.

sorry for not using commas. for some reason that button has decided to stop working


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## Bagtown (Mar 9, 2008)

Doss - People have the same "cheap" mentality when it comes time to do the finish and trim in a new home build. When the trim actually is one of the biggest cost in the home. Some folks think they can do that "trim stuff" themselves.


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## TDog (Apr 17, 2012)

You said it Doss, 
I usually run estimates by my dad and uncle who have been in the business for 30 years, 
they let me know if Im in the all park based on the type of job etc. Usually, I am too low 
when I consult them and look at materials, time, and things going wrong etc, worse case scenario 
type issues,

Quality costs usually,


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## fge (Sep 8, 2008)

The other thing to consider would be those who reject a bid because it is too low. Many companies will do that as well. If a knowledgeable person knows your bid is considered too low they may fear your bid to be inadequate to finish the job and look elsewhere. I know this from personal experience. Most of what I have learned has been from the school of hard knocks.


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## TDog (Apr 17, 2012)

Since this bid which was rejected, here are other work commissions I have received and have to work on

Child's table and chairs
Trestle Dining Table
Book shelves
Lecture Podium
Possible Curio Cabinet

Now to set up a reasonable work schedule and time quotes, the hardest part for me…time estimates


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## Doss (Mar 14, 2012)

Time estimates are difficult for a lot of people. Don't feel bad about it being difficult. It sometimes takes many years to get them narrowed down and sometimes you [or the customer] still may get burned.


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## americanwoodworker (Nov 26, 2011)

I read this on the back of a contractors tool trailer one day. Thought if I ever start a business I will use it on my bids and business cards…

"The satisfaction of a low bid is nothing compared to the bitterness of a job poorly done."


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## Earlextech (Jan 13, 2011)

TDog, Don't be afraid to charge! I'm not talking about what your price is, it may be fine for the results you intend. I'm talking about attitude. Don't be hesitant when you give the customer your price. Be sure that you have charged for everything, including your time spent designing and selling to the customer.
I've had plenty of customer agast with shock over my price only to find out that they thought I could build it cheaper than IKEA. "I saw this waterbed frame for $120 in the paper last weekend and you want $375?!?" I can't even buy the materials for $120.
Be sure of yourself, don't waver on price, better to price it high and have room to negotiate than to price it low and get the job.
Be confident.


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## Knothead62 (Apr 17, 2010)

Never back up on your quote. If you do, then *everyone* will expect you to do the same. This was the first thing I was told when I started building custom fishing rods.


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## clrcopy (Sep 2, 2012)

On the surface, seemed low to me as well, but again, depends on final materials cost and actual time. I don't do this for a living, I have done custom work for money though and I'm in sales, I always try to be accurate, but high at first, and go from there. Like someone said, you will make a customer's day by coming in lower. If they truly want good work to increase the value of their house, paying for a professional is worth it.

If you are trying to get jobs and references, then a lower price isn't always a bad thing as it may lead to more jobs, but like others have said, be careful. Even though you may be doing work you love, if you under charge you will soon love it less


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## Gshepherd (May 16, 2012)

Do not undersell yourself…....If you would have given them a bid for lets say 700 and you really needed 900 they would still squack. Your looking at materials, time….... What about your time right now designing, or the fact that you have an investment in your tools. You want a return on that as well. Just as they would on their investment in this case right now it is the wall unit. I changed my price on some mouldings twice in the past 3 years and I lost my shirt both times. You know what it takes, they do not cause if they did they would not be calling you they would do it themselves. I better stop now cause my left eye is starting to twitch…. Good Luck let us know how it all turn out.


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## IsaacH (Aug 29, 2012)

Back when I was an electrician (two long years ago), I HATED estimating jobs. Nobody ever expects estimates to be as high as they are. They expect you to do it for the equivelant of $5-10 an hour. People don't realize that your skill and expertise are a commodity that youve spent years honing and you deserve to be well compensated for them. You're an artist making something from scratch…not someone in a factory pulling a lever over and over again. When I worked for contractors, I only worked for contractors that paid well and had very high expectations for my productivity AND CRAFTMANSHIP!

Your skill and time are worth a decent living. Please dont sell yourself short!


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## ArlinEastman (May 22, 2011)

I also thing you were alittle low by about $200.

I have done alot of painting and rehabbing cars and trucks while in the military. I have found and continue to say this.

Everyone want a million doller job for ten bucks.

They want the big bucks, but do not want to spend it.


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## renners (Apr 9, 2010)

^ I am bemused by the fact that some people would think nothing of spending a couple of hundred euro getting a wing or door painted on the family car, but when it comes to lacquering a piece of furniture, they don't believe the amount of work that's in it.


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