# Used Tablesaw advice: Unisaw versus PM66



## JeffS (Nov 3, 2009)

Hello all,
I have been casually keeping an eye on the local listings for a used cabinet table saw. I live in upstate NY, and it is not very often that a Powermatic or Unisaw come up for sale. So, when 1 of each appeared this week, I was overwhelmed!

Within an hour of my house, there is a Powermatic PM66 from 1988, and a Delta Unisaw from 1961. Sight unseen, both sellers claim they are in fantastic condition. The PM66 is listed for $975, and the Unisaw for $650.

From everything I have heard, either of these saws would make just about any woodworker (especially a hobby one like myself) happy for years to come.

For those of you that have experience with these saws, and especially with restoring and maintaining older saws, would anyone care to comment on the ease or difficulty of finding parts, quality of the saws, preference in brand, etc?

Delta 10",3 HP 220 Volt ,right tilt.30 infence with mortising attachment,molding head and dado set,like new….

Any issues / things to look for when looking at a Unisaw that's almost 40 years old?

thanks!
Jeff


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

I like my Powermatic 66. I've had it for 12years and it's great.


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## rsmith71 (Jan 26, 2010)

Don't know about the Unisaw but almost every shop I've ever worked in had a 66. They're about as close to bulletproof as a table saw can get. I am a fan of Powermatic because they are so reliable. That's why shops keep them forever. I'd take a very close look at it and ask why they're selling, just to know why they're letting it go. If it is in good shape, I don't see you being less than happy with it for years to come.


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## JeffS (Nov 3, 2009)

Well, I missed out on the 66. Things got busy at work and I didn't have a chance to get out to see it in time.

The person selling the Unisaw is relocating, and selling off his whole shop, so I figure it is definitely worth it to go see what he has to offer.

I've used both right and left tilt, and am comfortable with both. If I had my druthers, I'd probably prefer left tilt. But, if the unisaw is worth it, and I can work out a deal to include a 14" bandsaw and some clamps, lumber, who knows what else…we'll see 

I am a little wary of the age of the unisaw, but then I saw Norm had one for a long time on NYW from about that era. Not that I buy what Norm has, but it was nice to see one in action and running well before I'm able to get out to see what condition the one for sale is in.

Seems like there are a lot of powermatic fans, and a lot of unisaw fans on here. Robert, that's interesting that most shops lean towards powermatic; are the delta's not considered as industrial out in the real world? I"m working out of a 1 car garage that I still have to run 220 to, so I still have a while to go before I'm going to get super picky about what saw I'm using. But, I do want to get something that will last, so I am a little wary of purchasing a 40 year old saw. But then again, my DJ15 jointer is going on 30 years of age and still runs great.


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## rsmith71 (Jan 26, 2010)

Deltas are good from what I've seen. I've got a Delta contractor saw at home that I like. I just believe that the Powermatic has earned a deserved reputation for toughness and accuracy. If/when I get to the point I can justify a cabinet saw, I'll lean to the 66 on experience.


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## SnowyRiver (Nov 14, 2008)

Its too bad you missed the PM66. I have an 88 model. I paid $1600 for it a few years ago. It had the table extension on the back and right side. I also got about 5 Forrest blades with it. It runs great and I have been very happy with it. I dont think you could go wrong with a good Delta Unisaw either. The 1961 is probably built like a tank.


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## MedicKen (Dec 2, 2008)

I have a Delta unisaw from 1968 that I recently restored. The main thing with an older saw is that most are 3 phase. If the saw you are looking at has an oval motor opening and a 3ph motor you will be limited on single phase options if you wish to convert it. The oval opening will not allow the newer motors to tilt all the way to 45. If the saw is complete, motor cover, dust door and either a Bies or Jet lock fence the price is fair. I have seen many unisaws go for a lot less but most need work. The unisaw was introduced in 1939 and has been bullet proof since inception. The older unisaws, ones with the cast iron plinth will not fit the new delta mobile bases. If you will need a base you will have to make one. Here are a few pics of mine, before and after:














































If you find it is a 3ph saw here is any esy and cheap alternative. The VFD sitting to the left of the motor takes 220V single phase and has 220V 3ph output. For $150 a lot cheaper than trying to find a songle phase motor that will fit


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## JeffS (Nov 3, 2009)

Ken - wow! great photos and info! I was just catching up on your blog postings. I talked with the seller and he said it is a 3 HP, single phase motor, 220V, which I'll confirm when I see it myself.

I'm not afraid of a project, if it's worth it. Is there such a thing as a unisaw NOT worth it? Like I mentioned before, I don't even have 220v run out to the garage yet, so I"m really in no hurry to have a large cabinet saw, but I sure do like a good deal, and not many of these things appear locally!

thanks for all the advice!


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## MedicKen (Dec 2, 2008)

A couple of other things to consider and ask are if the motor and arbor bearings have been replaced recently. The lifespan of those bearings are about 20 years. They are both very easy to change, however it will require removing the top to gain access to the motor. The motor will be secured with a bolt, 5/8" head, and a pin with clips on both ends. Remove the bolt and the clip on the pin to the outside of the cabinet and then drive the pin out with a punch. Have an extra set of hands available to help with the motor. It weighs about 80#!! While you are there you might take a look at the belts and replace if they are cracked, its a lot easier to do it with the top off, dont ask me how I know this. The belts you will need are Gates 4L260, 26". A copy of the owners manual is available here. If you are looking for the exact year of the saw with you will need to get the correct manual, there will be a tag on the front right of the cabinet with a model number. Use the model number to find the year here. Good luck and if you need anything else let me know.

PS…Dont wait too long on this or it will be gone too!!


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## knotscott (Feb 27, 2009)

Parts for Unis have historically been readily available even for older saws, and is one of the aspects that makes a Uni appealing. It's never good to be hasty, but procrastinating often means it goes to someone else. One nice thing about used saws that are priced fairly is that they tend to be roughly worth what you paid, so there's little financial downside.


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## lwllms (Jun 1, 2009)

I have to say I really disagree with rick3ddd. My PM66 has the old cast iron fence and I wouldn't trade it for any of the modern fences. I find the Biesemeyer and its clones sloppy, clumsy and indirect to use. They're incapable of accurate fine adjustments while keeping the fence parallel to the blade so one can measure directly from the blade to the fence during setting. The old Delta Jet-Lock fence isn't as good as the old Powermatic but its far better than the Biesemeyer design. One of the rules of woodworking is to always work with the same rule or tape for all operations but the Biesemeyer design forces you to use the rule on the fence. I've never seen a rule on one of those clumsy fences that's accurate enough to do many of the operations I do on a table saw. With the Biesemeyer style fence you're forced into a trial-and-error kind of setting that's a huge PIA. I'm sorry but I hate the tinker, tinker, tinker nature of setting those god-awful things. We've retrofitted one my partner's PM66 with the old style fence. I was a little surprised by Chris Schwartz's description of my saw as a "vintage" saw in an article that'll be in the next issue of Popular Woodworking. I bought that saw new in 1982 and still think of it as my new saw.


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## Beginningwoodworker (May 5, 2008)

I have older model Unisaw, So I am kind of stuck on my Unisaw.


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## KentS (May 27, 2009)

I own a Unisaw that was made in the 50's. It's been a great saw. It still has the original motor. I would not be afraid to buy an old one. In fact, I would buy an older one before I would consider a new one, as long as it is in good shape. I also have a Powermatic 66. I personally don't think either company is what they once were--But isn't that true with most everything we buy.

I would disagree with lwllms about the fence. Obviously it is totally personal opinion, and his is every bit as valid as mine. I did replace my original cast iron fence ( which I did not like by the way) with a Biesmeyer. The saw was used most of every day for years. I find it very easy to set up and use the T-Square type fence. The tape has always been accurate. For what we do, it has to be. I have Biesmeyer fences on multiple saws-Most have replaced the original fences.


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## knotscott (Feb 27, 2009)

lwllms - The Biese style fence was a minor revolution when it hit the industry because it didn't need to be double checked….it's the same on both ends every time. I don't know why you'd be forced to use the saw's stock tape measure with a Biese any more than with any fence. The stock tape on all my saws have always worked fine for me, but I could certainly use another tape measure if I wanted to. The Jet Exacta II on my current saw is the 4th of the Biese style design I've had, and I've liked them all quite a bit….just a matter of preference I guess.


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## Bothus (Sep 14, 2009)

Hi Jeff,

I bought a used Unisaw last year and documented my journey. The journey is not over yet but you check out what I have done.

MedicKen was an invaluable resource for me on this project. He knows his stuff.

http://lumberjocks.com/Bothus/blog/10975

I hope you get it. You won't regret it.

Take care,

Bothus


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## lwllms (Jun 1, 2009)

knotscott,

I don't think you're familiar with the old PM66 fence. When properly maintained and adjusted, you never have to check the back of the fence. Both the tubular rails and the head of the fence are very accurately machined. The head has two levers, one locks the front the other locks the back. This makes setting the fence very solid and accurate.










Here's a photo of my fence. The lower lever locks the front and the upper lever the back. With light pressure on the front lever one can engage the fine adjustment knob and move the fence. Because of the accuracy of machining and the lack of resistance on the back of the fence, the whole fence moves parallel to the blade. This is so accurate I can, and at times do, set a dial indicator on the fence so I can adjust by thousandths. Want to cut those tenons 0.002" thinner? No problem and no fiddling around.

Firmer pressure on the lower lever rigidly locks the head in place and then the back of the fence is locked. Once locked it's solid, there is no deflection. I once did put the dial indicator on the Biesemeyer style fence that we replaced on my partner's saw. I did it to see how much deflection we were getting while having trouble cross cutting veneered stock and having problems with tear out. I could pretty easily move the back of the fence .015" or more with little pressure. I can't think of any other reason to attempt to use a dial indicator on a Biesemeyer style fence.

Oh, there is that other thing. The auxiliary faces on my fence are pretty important. We use the one on the right side of the fence often and need it for what we do. Try and ad an auxiliary fence to a Biesemeyer style fence.

I'm convinced that Powermatic's old cast iron fence is the best fence ever put on a table saw.


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## miles125 (Jun 8, 2007)

Both are great. Toss a coin and be prepared to own a saw that will out live you!


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## Hyperhutch (Jul 3, 2009)

As far as maintaining, rebuilding, and restoring goes, I have seen a ton of info out there for the Unisaw. As said by others, there are plenty of parts available for Unisaws, and for a home shop it would certainly be a great tool. I purchased a Uni from a school two years ago, and have had to change the arbor and bearings, but that was very easy.

That said, what's been mentioned about the PM 66s is also true. The Uni was the first revolution in non-industrial table saws, and the PM 66s were the second. You might say the Unisaws paved the way for Powermatic. Many many many pro shops have PM 66s cuz they quickly became recognized as the best American made cabinet saw out there. If I would have had the choice between the two, I would have purchased the PM 66, but the Unisaws are still great. I wouldn't have bought mine if I didn't think it was an excellent machine.

Hutch


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## JeffS (Nov 3, 2009)

Hello all

Thanks for all the great advice. I'm heading out right now to go look at the unisaw. the guy is selling off is whole shop, so hopefully I can talk him down a little bit on the price, especially if I buy a bunch of other stuff….!

thanks,
Jeff


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## Bothus (Sep 14, 2009)

Jeff, Dude, it's been 13 hours! Don't keep us in suspenders. What did you decide?

Bothus


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## MedicKen (Dec 2, 2008)

Well? Did ya get it? Pics are in order.


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## SnowyRiver (Nov 14, 2008)




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## JeffS (Nov 3, 2009)

Sorry guys. What a day! Tool shopping took most of the day, and then my wife and I attended a "Hope for Haiti" Gala, that was quite to do in the albany, ny area.

Moral of the story, I bought the Unisaw! Here it is!



I spent a fee hours looking it over inside and out, and fully ran it thru it's paces. It is pretty awesome. I'll probably have to start a new thread or blog or something to get some help on fixing it all up. It runs great. smooth as silk with no vibration. I raised the bade up and gave the arbor a good test to see if there was any play: it passed.

The only thing not great is the fence system needs some help. As you can see, the fence is the original Delta. I don't know the proper name for it. Anyway, right now it is rather difficult to move. There is some kind of binding action taking place between the front and rear rail, so to move it, you have to apply pressure in the center of the rip fence. I'm hoping that it is just seriously out of adjustment and can at least be resurrected to be a bit less frustrating. It's still not as frustrating to setup as my current Craftsman fence…

The good thing is I was able to get a fairly decent deal on the saw (in my honest opinion). He was offering a dado set and molding cutter set as part of teh package, which were not in good enough condition for me to be excited about. So, I told him he could keep those, but that I would take the unisaw, Delta tenoning jig and his Delta oscillating Spindle Sander for $600, which was about $200 less than advertised.

I'm actually going to go pick it up first thing tomorrow morning. With the amount of snow and cold we're currently getting, I didn't want to go pick it up in my open pickup without having helping hands ready to unload it into my garage.

I'm in no hurry to use the saw, so I figure that based on your recommendations, I might as well go through and replace all the bearings.

once again, thanks for the great advice! I"ll be looking for a lot more to get this fence situation straighten out!

thanks,
Jeff


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## Dez (Mar 28, 2007)

I have what looks to be the exact same fence on my Rockwell saw - love the adjuster but the fence is not quite straight along it length so I had to shim the faces I added. It locks front and back with one lever so the back lock may need adjustment. I keep the rail waxed for easy movement no movement when lock down.


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## MedicKen (Dec 2, 2008)

Nice find!! OWWM.COM is the source for parts and info. The jet lock fence is a good one, clean it up and it will serve well for many more years. If ya need any help let me know


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## lwllms (Jun 1, 2009)

Clean up the fence rails with some fine woven (Scotch Brite) type abrasive and use a good paste wax on them. Try to keep the wax off the lower front quadrant of the front rail because this is where the cam locks the head. Replacement wheel handles are available from industrial supply houses like MSC or Reid Supply so the missing handle isn't much of an issue. That saw looks to be in good shape and has Delta's wonderful old cast iron base on the stand. You've got your self a good saw there, congratulations !!!


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## rsmith71 (Jan 26, 2010)

Congrats on the new saw!


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## SnowyRiver (Nov 14, 2008)

Congrats Jeff. Looks like a great addition to your shop. Keep us posted on how your are making out on the tune-up.


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## Bothus (Sep 14, 2009)

Hi Jeff,

When I first got my used Unisaw I planned on changing the arbor and motor bearings just like you. I did replace the arbor bearings but when I opened up the motor it turned out I didn't need to change those.

Good luck and please blog your progress.

Bothus


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## MedicKen (Dec 2, 2008)

Whats going on with the saw? Havent heard much


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## JeffS (Nov 3, 2009)

Unfortunately, nothing is going on with the saw. I haven't had any time to do anything with it, unfortunately. I am making good progress on our dining room project however. Over a year ago my wife and I started a fairly major project to divide our front living room into a new dining room and foyer. I started a blog here over on the Home Refurbers site.

So, that has been keeping me busy. Hopefully in another couple of weekends I"ll have a chance to get the saw plugged in and run some boards through!


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## Beginningwoodworker (May 5, 2008)

Jeff, congrats on your new Unisaw.


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## JeffS (Nov 3, 2009)

well after a solid year and a half, I finally had a chance to dig a trench and run a new 60 amp subpanel out to the shop so I could actually power up the table saw. up until now, I've been operating on 1×15 amp circuit. Got the subpanel wired up with 220 circuit for the table saw as the first priority. turned it on and it still works! Haven't done much other than clean up the fence rails and rip a bunch of poplar shelf edging for a bookcase project I'm working on. That saw sure does purr along!


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## Bigkahunaranch (Apr 9, 2014)

Dredging up this old post because I am looking to replace my Jet Exacta saw.
Choices are between a PM66, a Delta Unisaw or a Rockwall Unisaw.

I am not sure the difference between a Delta and a Rockwall, but I guess if its a 
Unisaw thats all that matters, right?

Also, any advice on what type fence….......Biesmeyer or unifence ??

I am a full time woodworker so it is a essential tool for my shop.

Thanks for the help.

Dave


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

> I am not sure the difference between a Delta and a Rockwall, but I guess if its a
> Unisaw thats all that matters, right?
> 
> Also, any advice on what type fence….......Biesmeyer or unifence ??
> - Bigkahunaranch


Delta = Rockwell = Delta

Delta was owned by Rockwell for, what, 28 years or something like that… the Unisaw was sold under both names, but it's still a Delta design Unisaw which pretty much remained the same from the late 30's to around 2007 when they changed the design a bit and moved both controls up front.

As for the fence, some prefer the Unifence, some the Biesmeyer… The Biesmeyer is the original T-square fence and has a huge following. The Unifence has some unique features not found on any other fence and also has a huge following. You can't really go wrong with either.

Cheers,
Brad


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## runswithscissors (Nov 8, 2012)

I had that same fence on my first real TS, a Delta contractor's saw. Hated that fence. Got rid of the pipe rails, and put on angle iron rails and a homemade T-square fence, which was a big improvement.

Eventually replaced the contractor's saw with a Unisaw, which came with a partially decombobulated fence, which was okay by me because I'd long harbored a notion about a double rack and pinion fence (similar in principle to the Dewalt fence on their jobsite saws). This has worked out very well. I never have to measure front and back of the blade. One measure is all it takes, and it's good. Requires tuning up and adjusting once every few years.

I always measure with a tape or rule, as I have never trusted the built in tapes on table saws. If I had one, I would ignore it.

By the way, if you do decide to go another direction with your fence, I'd have a look at Grizzly's "Incredible Shop Fox Fence." Never had one, but in the showroom they move with amazing smoothness and ease.


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

> I had that same fence on my first real TS, a Delta contractor's saw. Hated that fence. Got rid of the pipe rails, and put on angle iron rails and a homemade T-square fence, which was a big improvement.


Pipe rails? Neither the Unifence or Biesemeyer use pipe rails… the Jet-lock and it's original incarnation used pipes though. And if adjusted properly, the Jet-lock can be just as accurate, but not quite as convenient.

Cheers,
Brad

PS: The Unifence is actually considered a type of t-square fence, although the rail system is different than what most more modern T-square fences (including the Biesemeyer) use.

PSS: Rockwell owned Delta for 38 years, not 28 like I mentioned above - my bad


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## runswithscissors (Nov 8, 2012)

I was referring to the photo in entry #22. That is like the old fence I had, and it certainly is not a T square fence. Yes, I am aware that Delta made other fences.


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## SirIrb (Jan 12, 2015)

I disagree with the comment about the stick on tape. I worked for quite some time on a 66 and 72. both had b-meyer fences and stick on starret tapes. Dead Nuts every time. Apply the tape and tweak in the "viewer", you will be good.


> I had that same fence on my first real TS, a Delta contractor s saw. Hated that fence. Got rid of the pipe rails, and put on angle iron rails and a homemade T-square fence, which was a big improvement.
> 
> Eventually replaced the contractor s saw with a Unisaw, which came with a partially decombobulated fence, which was okay by me because I d long harbored a notion about a double rack and pinion fence (similar in principle to the Dewalt fence on their jobsite saws). This has worked out very well. I never have to measure front and back of the blade. One measure is all it takes, and it s good. Requires tuning up and adjusting once every few years.
> 
> ...


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

> I was referring to the photo in entry #22.


Shhhhh…. don't look now, but that post (#22) was from 5 years ago ;-)

This thread was brought back from the dead by a question about the differences between the Bies and Unifence (#33).

Cheers,
Brad


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