# Great plane, great customer service, surprisingly bad quality control



## TheDane

bobasaurus-Excellent review/commentary. You are right … I would expect more attention to detail from Lie-Nielsen.


----------



## JoeinGa

Hmmm. I wonder… If they see this review, what are the chances they'll have their technician give one some "special handling" and tune one up, then send you the new one and ask you to return this one ?


----------



## TheDane

joein10asee-That would be the RIGHT thing to do!


----------



## MarkE

Wow. You really don't expect to see those kinds of issues with a top quality, premium product.
It's very surprising that even after a second chance to get the plane up to spec, they still did not get it right.


----------



## NormG

Congrats on the plane. Call them, they will make it right


----------



## lj61673

I just checked the chip breaker on my LN bronze #3 and your right, my chip breaker is honed to a fine edge, almost like the blade.

I'm sure if you wanted they would take this plane back and send you a new one. Good luck.


----------



## sikrap

If I spent $350 on a brand new plane, I'd expect it to be perfect. I can understand a plane sneaking through the first time, but to repair a plane and send it back out like that is amazing to me. Personally, I'd call and insist on speaking with a CS supervisor. They should just send you a new plane and take that one back.


----------



## Dusty56

I think I would have asked for a new plane…that IS what you paid dearly for in the first place.
Shame on them for making you wait for all that time rather than just sending you a replacement.


----------



## TropicalWW

I've heard of this a few times with LN. Someone buys a new tool, something isn't right, and the buyer has to send it back for repair. I just don't understand that customer service approach. If a new tool isn't correct, just replace it! LN should do the repairs on their time, not their customer"s!

I've tried very hard to purchase LN products in the past even when other options have been cheaper or in some cases better. I like the look of LN products, and the customer service was always great to deal with, but lately I've heard from more and more people that didn't get the service they should. (I've experienced it myself, too) It almost seems to me like Tom LN is absent, and the inmates are running the asylum. Or maybe LN thinks they can coast on the success of their past. Either way, I see more and more of my $ going toward Lee Valley.


----------



## michelletwo

what a shame..I adore my LN planes bought many years ago..they must be having issues today..they should have sent you a new plane .(or at least new parts)


----------



## JohnChung

I bought a few stuff from LN. Mortise chisels, 102 and tenon saws. Of all the items, the 102 quality was the lowest…. Here is why. The blade was not as sharp as those from LV. There was some cosmetic scratches with the 102 and the depth screw was not that smooth.

The blade state of sharpness I could live with it. As carpenters we are all expected to know how to sharpen our blades. The scratches….. Call me silly but I do expect a shiny body with the money I spent. The depth screw at first I thought it was an issue but it actually turns out to allow the user to feel more control on the blade depth. Something which I do not quite get with the LV.

There are many things that could GO wrong with the gear we buy but somethings does NOT justify the cost when the machining or customer happiness are not met.

So what it means to me. I will support LN. The customer service is not great nor as quick as LV but they will do they best to make the customer happy. That I am certain. If you do get their gear and the quality is within expectation, I am certain you would enjoy your tools which I do certainly.


----------



## NiteWalker

I agree with what Dave said.
You paid for perfection, you deserve it.


----------



## stefang

This is a very good and fair review. I hope LN will read it. They had a chance to show off their customer service and failed in my opinion. This is bound to cost them. At the same time, while I personally think LN's QC should have been better in this case, if you wind up with an extraordinary tool, the aggravation is worth it.


----------



## Gene01

It's excellent reviews like Bob's in forums like this that *MAY*cause companies to take note. When we receive an inferior product and/or experience poor CS, many of us (me included) will often fix it ourselves and just not patronize that retailer/manufacturer in the future. That's the wrong approach! We should widely publicise our dissatisfaction as Bob has done. 
OTOH, positive experiences should be just as widely published, too.


----------



## grizzlymunchin

these are production line planes not custom built, so that means tuneup, if you want custom you will pay a big price just sayin


----------



## Woodmaster1

I think you pay for quality when you buy from LN and it should be expected. The words under LN on the web sight say Herloom Quality Tool and that should mean high quality and no defects.


----------



## StephenPrunier

Enjoyed your review. However, like your review, I have issues with L.N. too.

I have purchased quite a bit from L.N. After waiting 6 weeks (told 3!) for my No.48, it arrived with a cracked front knob! How it shipped that way has me baffled. The boxes were in perfect condition. In my case (interesting emails & a call from Deneb) I honestly feel it was sent this way on purpose. When I emailed them about it they said they could send me a new knob "If I think I can switch out the knobs myself"!!! WTF, You can't make that kind of statement up. I didn't wan't to say anything about it on the web, but those who I mentioned it too have agreed that it was knowingly sent that way.

I'm starting to feel that L.N. thinks were suppose to feel honored to use their tools, instead of L.N. being honored that we spend our hard earned money for their tools


----------



## grizzlymunchin

lots of chips and dirt on the tool for it bein new, just sayin


----------



## grizzlymunchin

I mean really if I bought a LN tool I would take it out of the box and go straight to my granite plate and start tuning it the way I want it to perform not LN's way I mean Bridge City is perfect out of the BOX but they are quite pricey I have had my hands on Bridge city tools and they are perfectly built, flawless, just sayin


----------



## TropicalWW

Stephen said it perfectly!

"I'm starting to feel that L.N. thinks were suppose to feel honored to use their tools, instead of L.N. being honored that we spend our hard earned money for their tools "

I'm sure other's millage will vary, but the stories I'm hearing, and my own experiences, make me feel this is exactly what's going on.


----------



## jusfine

I own and use a number of their planes and other tools, some have arrived with damaged knobs or chipped handles, but all have been replaced quite quickly.

Does seem like sometimes the information sent to them is skimmed and not read completely, this was the case with a series of emails I sent that was crystal clear from the start yet needed three more replies and restating the same thing before it was understood.

Thanks for your review, and I wish you all the best with your plane!


----------



## HillbillyShooter

Very nice, even handed review with great supporting photographs. Sorry to hear LN is having quality control issues and not making things right on their time and after being given a second chance. If LN is going to allow their product to decline to the level of a production line plane, they need to reduce their prices from a custom level. JMHO.


----------



## PurpLev

Thanks for the review. I wonder what's going on there - doesn't sound normal or accepted to me. I hope management is taking notes and making adjustments.

a statement like this makes me worry: I own and use a number of their planes and other tools, some have arrived with damaged knobs or chipped handles, but all have been replaced quite quickly.

While it's good to know they were replaced quite quickly, I fail to see why they should have been shipped that way to begin with - and obviously more than once (that's the most troubling point).

if I paied $350 on a single hand plane - it better be perfect out of the box - that means no scratches (I will scratch and scuff the plane at my own expense when I feel like it, but not when new out of the box), and no mis-properly machined parts. unless…. I am getting a "seconds" product at a lower cost - for this exact reason (has a scuff, or blemish) - which I have done in the past.


----------



## JulianLech

I own 1 LN plane; small block plane. I did not have any quality problems with my plane and it works great. But when you pay a premium price for a plane you definitely expect all the parts to be in good working order. Companies that do not address quality control issues in a timely manner will definitely lose customers.


----------



## WayneC

I've have a number of their tools and have not had a problem. Bummer you had to go through so much.


----------



## JGM0658

The only problem I have had with LN was the blade for my Nº51 shooting plane not being flat in the back. Other than that I have never had any problem with the tools I have bought from them. Yet recently it seems that something along the way is getting missed as I have seen a lot more complaints about their tools.

OTOH, we only see the complaints, we really cannot be sure what is their failure rate.


----------



## TerryDowning

From a pure Quality Control standpoint, I'm surprised they did not send you a new item and keep the defective one on return. These kinds of returns are valuable negative feedback that can really help improve a manufacturing process.

I know if I got a product back like that I would want to know everyone that put their hands on it and what went wrong.


----------



## Loren

Woodcraft has IBC iron/cap iron sets on sale right now,
like half price because they're overstocked.
I bought one for my LN #4. I haven't used it enough
to really say if it's a super iron, but the finishing
of the iron and chipbreaker were flawless and 
between the iron and chipbreaker, the whole 
thing is 1/4" thick.

Worth looking into maybe.


----------



## jdmaher

I've bought several tools from Lie-Nielsen, including a No. 4, and I even got the high frog. I have 5 planes and a couple of saws.

I'm just a hobbyist. I call these purchases "legacy investments", 'cause I really can't afford them - unless my great-grandchildren can use them, too. Every purchase arrived cosmetically perfect. I had every purchase inspected by a much more experienced woodworker, and every tool was declared perfect, "a thing of beauty". And in use, they make me a better woodworker.

I *NEED* Lie-Nielsen to keep being perfect. I hope to hear from them about what went wrong here.


----------



## bobasaurus

I did get a follow-up email from Lie-Nielsen asking if there were any problems. I replied with the information here and they wrote back an apology. They said I can fix the scuffed lever cap with medium scotch-brite pads. They wrote this about the chipbreaker:

"The Chipbreaker edge is definitely of concern. It is supposed to be a square tip, not a knife edge, but it is not supposed to be that thick. We will address that in our blade group. You have already ground down the bevel, but you can do one more step to help even more. If you polish the tip of the chipbreaker by rounding it off on your stones, you get a clean highly polished surface that provides no interference to the shavings."

Hopefully they can improve these things in the future.


----------



## TheDane

They are still putting the onus on you … treating you more like an employee than a customer. Shame on them.


----------



## WayneC

Setting up tools is part of the normal process. However, the main reason to go with LN is the first place is to get quality tools that require this type of setup. Might as well buy Windriver or one of the next class down.


----------



## Dusty56

Give us your money and we'll tell you how to fix our mistakes ! 
Must be a tuition fee…pay up front, learn lessons later.


----------



## OSU55

Thanks for a fair and just review! At the prices LN charges, these types of mistakes should not occur.

A comment on the cap iron face: most information one finds discusses a knife edge, however, intrigued by the Kawai and Kato research on the influence of the cap iron, I have done some of my own testing. All of my cap irons now wear a 70°-80° bevel about a 1/16" or more tall. Tight mouth openings are no longer a concern. Placement of the cap iron to cutting edge is, and depends on grain and depth of cut. I can plane into some nasty grain with no tearout with standard Stanley bench planes. I've been absolutely amazed by the results. Chris Schwarz has done a few articles on this as well.


----------



## EagleWW

Just got my #4-bronze on Friday. Went over it again after reading this. Now I am just about as particular as anyone I know or have even heard about. The fit and finish are flawless. I even double-checked the chip breaker and cap-iron ( or is it cap-bronze? ). Again, PERFECT! Waiting for my DMT 8000 plate so I can hone and give it a trial run. Now on Saturday I got my Stanley #4 Sweetheart. I know L-N was $350 and the Sweetheart was only $120 buy YIKES. They must not even HAVE a finishing dept. The cap iron was actually a cap aluminum. I mean, REALLY?


----------



## bobasaurus

Eagle, I'm glad your plane came out perfect. Maybe they've improved on their process, or I just got a dud. I've heard the 8000 plates can still be a little coarser than the equivalent waterstone, I would be curious to hear your results with it.


----------



## sobowoodworker

After over 40 tool purchases, I am disappointed










with Lie-Nielsen. The original issue I had was forgivable but they have not delivered the level of customer service I reasonably expected. I asked for a replacement and I would return the defective tool in the box the replacement came in. No, instead I must wait to send the defective tool back and then they will ship a new one. I must find a box, shipping/packing materials, and then ship. They are sending me a return box. I was told about how they have been taken advantage of in the past and they will no longer accommodate customers in the way I felt was reasonable. I feel how others behave has nothing to do with my relationship with them. Interesting that at no time did they apologize about their mistakes and poor quality control, only apologized about not granting my request. Mr. Lie-Nielsen's daughter further stated that they would furnish a prepaid return label as this was something they didn't have to do. I have written to Tom Lie-Nielsen but have not received a response. In his defense, this week is their open house.

Oh, the original grievance, I ordered a #48 and #49 Tongue and groove plane.. the #49 had a fine polished surface on the rails that slide on the wood. The #48 had heavy mill lines on these same surfaces that do not appear to have been within 100 feel of a polishing and finishing machine.

There are two values you put on a customer, the value of today's business and the value of a lifetime of business!


----------



## sobowoodworker

I received an email in a very timely manner from Tom Lie-Nielsen today. In this email, he apologized for the defects in my #48 plane and said he was shipping out a replacement tomorrow. I believe I will now receive the good customer care I sought originally. Hopefully, his customer care team will be schooled in a better way to handle this type of problem for the future. This was the first time I had been disappointed with a Lie-Nielsen hand tool. I am a better wood worker because of Tom Lie-Nielsen and his tools, books, and DVD's. I am well pleased.


----------



## Lovegasoline

OK … this is an old thread but it presents the view of a company in a slice of time … so I think it relevant to resume where others have left off.

The content of this thread is not very confidence inspiring and frankly is quite worrisome. Although I don't own any Lie Nielsen tools (I do own some fine Veritas Tools, all flawless) I've always thought that eventually I would. 
Their traditional #4 smoother in bronze as featured in the OP has been in the back of my mind for some time particularly in relationship to my Stanley Bailey #4 with banana sole in both axes, non square sides, weird lateral lever issues, and more. Struggling with defective tools should be a major part of one's purchasing decision as the relationship with the future tool will impact one's life in various capacities: time utilization, frustration thresholds, and additional expenditures … one buys into these parameters buying the tool.

From many of this thread's contributors, it seems like a significant percentage of Lie Nielsen customers did not get what they wanted from their purchase but purchased from Lie Nielsen and paid for - along with their tool - a frustration policy, a time waste program, and significant disruption of peace of mind. These reports suggests a company to avoid doing business with if quality control and post purchase interactions matter.

What has the trajectory of Lie Nielsen been like in the past 5 years since this thread was last updated?
Have they continued to go downhill regarding defective merchandise, quality control, and customer service? 
Have they cleaned house and improved their standards in both manufacturing and CS?

If one were to get a premium tool with high price tag such as a Lie Nielsen one reason would be to not have to engage in a prolonged struggle to fettle the tool in order to get it to work correctly and to correct manufacturing defects … the last thing I'd want to introduce into my life is a consumer relationship with a company that has a difficult and burdensome customer service culture. I'm not at all interested in their tools and can do quite well without them if the present day Lie Nielsen Toolworks retains the same degraded relationship to their products and customers as evidenced in this thread regardless of their reputation. The premium LN charges is in exchange for a perfect tool, period. There's plenty of tools to buy for half the price or less that require significant efforts on the part of the purchaser to make it completely accurate and ready for work.

Curious to hear your experiences from the past year or so - and even more so - replies from Covid-19 era customers.

Thanks.


----------



## Lovegasoline

Bump


----------



## bobasaurus

Since this is a review instead of a thread it won't get bumped with new comments unfortunately.

I'm still using this plane extensively since I posted this 7 years ago. It was smoothing a cranky walnut slab today in fact. Aside from the No. 4, I also have the 4-1/2, and 7-1/2, both of which I bought used and didn't have any issues with. I also have a number of their chisels and two of the boggs spokeshaves that were purchased new after the No. 4, all of which are flawless. So it may have just been an unlucky break for me, but I probably wouldn't purchase another new plane from them after seeing the quality of the veritas planes.


----------



## Lovegasoline

Thanks for alerting me to that bobasaurus, and I appreciate your follow-up.


----------

