# Where to buy saw files?



## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

Ive been meaning to acquire all the tools necessary to reshape and sharpen up about a dozen or so hand saws and last night, when I finally got around to purchasing all the gear, I found that no one has them in stock. This include Lee Valley, Lie Neilson, and Tools for woodworking. Apparently Grobet, the main manufacturer, cannot keep up with the production. Either that or its vacation season in Switzerland, I dunno.

So I pose to the group … Where else can I buy saw files?


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## Sodabowski (Aug 23, 2010)

eBay.


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## 7Footer (Jan 24, 2013)

Have you tried Munnell & Sherrill? A guy I work with is way into hand saws and chain saws, and he has a whole bunch of Simonds files, they are an authorized dealer of Simonds and Armstrong files, and have good pricing.

http://www.munnell-sherrill.com/pages/product_pages/saw.html

Their web page kind of sucks, you may have to have them mail you a product catalog but they have good stuff and even run specials now and then.


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

Thanks for the tips fellas. I plan on looking into both tonight.


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## AnthonyReed (Sep 20, 2011)

What are you trying to say? Switzerland is lazy?


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

They're neutral on the subject Tony.


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## Kreegan (Jul 10, 2012)

Since Nicholson went to pot, Grobet is basically the only supplier of saw files for all of Europe and the US. I'd imagine they're having a hard time keeping up, particularly since saw files are small and cheap and likely low margin.


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

That's pretty much it Rich. When you're the only one in the game and there's a resurgence in the market, this is what ya get. Long lead times.


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## AnthonyReed (Sep 20, 2011)

^ You mean impatient customers?


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

You forgot procrastinating Tony. I don't make any bones about it. Im a last minute kinda guy.


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## AnthonyReed (Sep 20, 2011)

I've no doubt about the minute part.


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## BrandonW (Apr 27, 2010)

Sounds like a good opportunity for someone looking to fill the gap. Now who knows the first thing about file-making? And I don't mean, right click, New File.


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

I was watching Roy last night and he had C Schwarz on making an English layout square and they had gotten to talking about files and what separates a good one from a not so good one. The machine cut ones have rows of teeth in a uniform pattern which make them tend to "hop" around. He had said that the good ones have no pattern to them and are punched out by hand in a non descript pattern making them cut smoother without the "hop". I thought that was some pretty good info.


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## BrandonW (Apr 27, 2010)

That's what I hear about rasps, and that's why Ariou rasps or other hand-made one are preferrable.


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## AnthonyReed (Sep 20, 2011)

They were referring to files or rasps?

Edit - Brandon is a quicker draw.


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

Ahh goo - they were talkin rasps. My bad.

Apparently I don't know the first thing about files lol.


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## crank49 (Apr 7, 2010)

It really is ignorant of all the great tool brands to forget that quality products is what made them great in the first place, and go off chasing the buck. Moving production from factories where the workers developed skills for decades and were dedicated to their products and their employers to go to off shore or across the borders to where only cheap labor is king.

Oh, wait. I guess unions convinced those dedicated workers that the man was only looking to screw the poor workers and hoard all those ill begotten profits. Progressives convinced most of the people that those damn factories only wanted to destroy the environment and pollute all our air. Better to send all that nasty old manufacturing crap somewhere else so we can have clean air and stuff.

So, take a deep breath of that clean air and pass the empty time playing with whatever you find at the bottom of those empty pockets, because we asked for this.,


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## AnthonyReed (Sep 20, 2011)

I didn't ask for that; i asked for a pony.


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## TobyC (Apr 7, 2013)

Look HERE.

Toby


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## TobyC (Apr 7, 2013)

And HERE.

Toby


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

Thanks Toby!


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## BigYin (Oct 14, 2011)

Search British ebay for "bahco saw file" it do what it say on the box…


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

+100 for Crank49


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## 489tad (Feb 26, 2010)

Chris you could try a local machine tool supply company. They might / should have the files you need.


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

Good thought Dan. Im on mission.


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## Stephenw (Nov 14, 2011)

I recently purchased a set of Grobet files here…

Tools for Working Wood

Keep checking, they seem to bounce between in and out of stock every couple of weeks.

Nicholson and many other common tool brands are owned by Apex Tool Group. Apex is owned by Bain Capital.


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## Tim457 (Jan 11, 2013)

Yeah Bahco is your other option if Grobet's are out of stock. Amazon has Grobet's too if you want to stock up and buy 12 of each type you need for something like $36. At $3 for each file that's less than half what you'd pay per file elsewhere. Shipping is around $15, but if you contact the seller, it looks like they will combine shipping if you buy a few sizes at one time. If they will, at that price it's still worth tossing some in a flat rate shipping box and splitting it with someone.

Edit: I just looked and Lee Valley has everything but the 6" Double Extra Slim File (9 - 10 tpi) in stock. But of course, I'm sure that's the one you need. Unless it's a critical saw, you can get buy with the files above or below it though.


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## ksSlim (Jun 27, 2010)

Gorbet works at my place.
Nicholson went to crap when they outsourced mfgr.


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## paratrooper34 (Apr 27, 2010)

Chris, McMaster-Carr has files.


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

Right on fellas, ive got some hunting to do. At this point I might as well pick up a half dozen of each and sell them on the black market


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

You should be able to find any file that you need for anything at either MSC or MacMaster Carr#.

helluvawreck aka Charles
http://woodworkingexpo.wordpress.com


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## mochoa (Oct 9, 2009)

Wow look at all that good stuff on ebay! 
Why doesn't someone make files impregnated with diamonds and be done with it?


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## TobyC (Apr 7, 2013)

HERE.

HERE.

They're out there.

Toby


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## mochoa (Oct 9, 2009)

Oh so those are actually encrusted with diamonds huh? Has anyone tried those on hand saws?


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## Kreegan (Jul 10, 2012)

If you want to order smaller quantities of diamond triangular files, try Lee Valley:

http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=70614&cat=51&ap=2

I haven't tried them, but see no reason they wouldn't work. I have a bunch of Grobet files now, but I think I'll try the diamond ones when these wear out.


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## mochoa (Oct 9, 2009)

That's cool but only the triangular one would work for saw filing and they are not sold individually.


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## Kreegan (Jul 10, 2012)

Yeah, but all the Alibaba links are for 10+ sets or boxes of 100+. The lopacki link at least allows individual purchase. If diamond triangular files work for saw sharpening, you should really only need a coarse and fine and that should do you for many, many years.


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## terryR (Jan 30, 2012)

Stef, don't forget if you grab Grobet files, get the S-files in the red checkered box…not the blue one!

Andy's post on the Saw Restoration Forum was very informative:

http://lumberjocks.com/replies/607310

I'm still looking for real saw files myself…gonna start searching for the name Vallorbe…


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## CL810 (Mar 21, 2010)

Terry, thanks for posting that. I had tried to find it and gave up.


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## TobyC (Apr 7, 2013)

Swiss Vallorbe Slim

Toby


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## TobyC (Apr 7, 2013)

Vallorbe Files=

Toby


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## TobyC (Apr 7, 2013)

vallorbe files

Toby


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

All right gang im getting around to picking up the files I need ... here's my MMC order … hows it look? I know im missing 2 saw sets and im a little leery about not knowing exactly what brand of files im getting so I wanted to submit it to the group for verification.


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

Hmm emailed MMC and they do not provide the manufacturers name that is associated with the files. Anyone know which brand they carry? I emailed them back and said as long as it wasn't made in mexico Nicholson or the made in india grobets I was cool with it. That would widdle it down pretty good IMO. Id like to see the vallorbes of the swiss grobets. I just don't wanna dump $50 on a handful of files that crumble apart. I also know very little about their return policy. Any info appreciated.


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

Return email states "We do not release manufacturer information" "you can return them if they're not what you want" ... wtf? I mean honestly if you stand behind what ya sell why wouldn't you give that kind of information out.

I directly asked "I just wanted to make sure they aren't the made in mexico nicholsons or india made grobets. If you can confirm that I will place my order". Im pretty leery now about ordering from them. I know I could return them but id rather have a good product to begin with and it smells like im getting one of those two brands mentioned above.

Kinda like buying furniture at WalMart. If I wanted a piece of $hit id buy a piece of $hit. I want the good stuff baby.


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## Tim457 (Jan 11, 2013)

That reply says bargain basement outsourced to me. Or they just get whatever is cheaper at the time and don't want to track who the manufacturer is. That also says bargain basement outsourced production.


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

You don't release manufacture's name?

That's funny because I don't release funds when you're ambiguous.


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## CL810 (Mar 21, 2010)

Just went to LV site to check on my backordered saw sharpening setup: Expected delivery September! Bummer.


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

Ya know i went to mcmaster because tgey had a strong reputation. Guess i was wrong. Ill send a reply email to them expressing my dissapointment. Ill keep ya guys posted.

Kinda bummed myself here cl810.


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## Mosquito (Feb 15, 2012)

"Then I'm going to pay you with currency from an undisclosed source, and value"


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

why don't you just buy 1 and see what quality it is? I've only been buyuing from McMaster for a few months, but everything I've recieved I've been happy with, and their shipping cost seem really reasonable.


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

While I don't disagree with giving it a shot Don I find it poor business that they wont disclose their supplier. I could very well be spending top dollar for a file that I can get at Harbor Freight, who knows. Bait and switch mentality don't really jive with me and this wreaks of it. I don't wanna play the shipping game, I just want a set of files that will make a dull saw sharp again.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

I agree with the poor business tactic. I guess my point was/is, if you have to take a shot, you've got a better shot getting quality out of McMaster Carr than Harbour Freight or Home Depot. Its still a gamble, but it seems like its take a shot, or wait for the normal suppliers. For $10, its probably worth the shot.


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

I dig what youre sayin Don but im gonna stick to my guns here and hold out. My first attempted purchase with them was unfortunately, displeasing. I may not have any personal ethics but I do have a strong code of business ethics lol.

I did just email them letting them know of my decision, not that $50 really means jack to their bottom line, but I left the door open, stating that if they can supply me with Swiss Grobet or Vallorbe files I would be more than willing to give them my business. Nothin nasty because that's their policy and I don't have to agree with it, I don't make the rules in this game. Kinda sours me though.


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## Hookedin (Apr 17, 2013)

I do a decent amount of business with McMaster, and have always been told (not by them) that they don't provide manufacturer data for 2 reasons:

It keeps you from shopping around
It lets them change brands easily

This link flows to another forum discussing the same with some additional insight.

McMaster most certainly wont always be the cheapest source, but their customer service (returns), FAST shipping, and the shear convenience makes up for it most of the time for me. I have also never received anything from them that I would consider "junk".


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

Good thread there Hooked. And don't get me wrong, I'll gladly pay for superior service and quality each and every time but when I posed the statement of "If you can assure me that the files I will receive will not be Nicholson or India made Grobet I will make the purchase" and got the reply of "If you do not like the files you can return them" it raised a big flag for me.

All he had to say was "I assure you" and I would have pulled the trigger and rolled the dice. I get that by not telling the consumer who the manufacturer is one cannot shop the price. Im cool with that, like I said, it's their business policy and who am I to argue with their policy. It just smells like im getting one of the 2 manufacturers that ive heard bad things about.


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

Well after another email and some careful wording ive been assured that the files MMC sell are not Nicholson or India made Grobet.

Im rolling the dice. Ill keep ya fellas posted. Thanks for all the insight and experiences.


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## terryR (Jan 30, 2012)

Stef, I have my fingers crossed for ya! I have purchased many, many items from MMC without any dissappointment. Of course, I buy nuts and bolts, fittings, and raw materials. Never have bought a complete tool…hand or power.

They certainly don't sell junk. But, they also aren't selling Vallorbe.

Since I have never sharpened a saw…yet…I certainly can't recommend one file over another. But, I know how my mind works…when I'm sitting in front of all those teeth, I want the best tools I can have at my disposal. Then I know when poor results are due to my error, not the cheap tool.

No source of quality saw files is the ONLY reason I haven't built a vise, and gotten excited about saw sharpening. Especially after wasting $50 on those Grobet USA files. bummer…

Although, on a good note, I noticed Joe at 2nd Chance Saw Works is offering a second sharpening of his saws free!


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

You nailed it Terry. I dont want to be able to blame the tool i want to blame the operator. Im fine with physical mistakes but i dont need any more excuses thats for sure. Im pretty pumped about the files. So much so that im about to plant my butt in the recliner and go cover to cover with our boy Andy. Hittin the shop for some inspiration and then im goin full black.


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## Tim457 (Jan 11, 2013)

I think it was this thread where people asked about the diamond files. I haven't tried any good ones, but I did use the HF diamond needle file set to sharpen a 12ppi saw because I could go get it right away and the saw wasn't valuable. It worked fine and only really two drawbacks. Biggest was the needle file is so short it's harder to work with. Other is the file was rather course and probably didn't leave a very good edge. But it was the first saw I'd ever sharpened and it went fine and the saw went from not cutting to cutting pretty well. I was even able to even out some calves and cows.

Point I'm trying to make though is one out of the 6 files in a couple dollar HF freight set worked fine. Saw sharpening isn't that bad. Needless to say if I can do it you can. Also, if McMaster Carr stands by their stuff and have very good service, then I guess you'll probably be alright.


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## AnthonyReed (Sep 20, 2011)

Nice work Stef. Good to see you stick to your principals.

And yes, please let us know.

Thanks for sharing.


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

And while the delivery was the fastest ive ever seen i was lied to. Opened up the box and whats in there? Made in Mexico Nicholson's. That frosts my a$$.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

ouch!!


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## terryR (Jan 30, 2012)

That sucks! Who cares about fast shipping of crapola?

Where does Andy get files? I'm ready to pay the shipping…


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

Toolsforwoodworking has a few in stock.

Enough to get you started I'd think.


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## BrandonW (Apr 27, 2010)

Wow, I'd definitely send a complaint to customer service on that one! Of course, return the files, too, but that's just bad.


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

Yea I think im going to return them out of principal alone. That just aint right man. How are you gonna sit there and blatently lie about the make of the files? They might be a good batch, but I just don't think im willing to find out. Ya know, with the global market on saw files at bare minimum they could really capitalize on that fact if they were forth coming about their product. Double disappointment …. not cool MMC, not cool.


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## AnthonyReed (Sep 20, 2011)

<sigh>


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

Im really tempted to go on Ebay and buy boxes of NOS, split them up and sell them. I might have to investigate that today. I think there's enough of us looking for files or waiting on backorders that it would be worth it. No profits involved just need to make the woodworking world right again. Man im miffed about this.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

it kinda skews my opinion of mcmaster


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## terryR (Jan 30, 2012)

Bro Stef, if you can find boxes of Vallorbe files by the dozen, I'd be happy to split the costs, or send some goodies your way in trade! I can't find 'em by the dozen. My personality is an addictive one, such that when I start to sharpen saws, I'll have a go at the dozen I have hanging in wait.

Terry don't wanna get hooked on saw filings, and have nowhere to get my fix! 

BTW, I used my Indian files (Grobet USA) yesterday to file down some brass pins without touching the surrounding wood. They eat brass like goats eat grass…that is to say…not much at all! My borg nicholson did a faster job. Yeah, some fat ba$tard took advantage and made money off me.


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

It has seriously skewed mine as well Don, especially being that this is my first purchase from them. Im about to send off an email to customer service which im sure the reply will be "Just return them for a refund".

I want my pound of flesh damn it! lol. More so, I just want a decent file. Im not one to bash a company but this just may require a new thread.


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

10-4 Terry. Maybe we can tag team this puppy. You take the 4 & 5" files ill take the 6 & 7" files. Im like you, when I get something in my head, which isn't very often as you guys know, I want it and I want it now. Typical impatient consumer.


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

My email to MMC:

I had recently (2 days ago) ordered $50 worth of triangular files for sharpening hand saws and promptly received the order last night. I had previously emailed customer service requesting the particular brand of the files. At that time it had come to my attention that McMaster Carr does not reveal the brands they sell, which is fine by me, it's your company policy. While I could not be told the specific brand, I wanted to be assured that I would not receive either the India made Grobet files or the Mexican made Nicholson files. This was confirmed to me by customer service. (email thread attached below) (My comments in bold, CS in red).

Im looking into buying your triangular files for sharpeneing hand saw but I don't see a specific brand of files that you carry. Could you tell me who the manufacturer is on the files? I appreciate your time in helping me. Thanks.

We prefer not to provide manufacturer information on the products we sell. Please let us know if you want a specific brand, and we'll look into it.

I just wanted to make sure i wasnt getting the nicholsons or india made grobets. If its neither of those ill place my order. Brand specifics not required besides a confirmation its not tge above stated.

If you do not like the triangular files, you can return them for full credit.

For what its worth I went to McMaster Carr because of the strong reputation they had carried within the circle of people I know who have bought from you folks. While the return policy is great, I don't want to play the shipping game. I just want files that will make an old dull saw sharp again without crumbling after a few strokes and I cannot be assured that this will be the case, in either direction, without knowing the manufacturer. For all I know I could be paying top dollar for the same file I can get at Harbor Freight at a fraction of the cost. Ill be making my purchases elsewhere.

If you can provide me with either Grobet Swiss files or Vallorbe files I would be happy to reverse my decision.

I appreciate your time and regard.

We do not sell Grobet Swiss or Vallorbe files. Our files also aren't Nicholsons or India made.

The last line had assured me, in a round about way, that I would not receive lesser quality files so I went ahead and made my purchase. When I opened up the box this morning and inspected the files I was extremely disappointed that, in fact, I have received Mexican made Nicholson files which are indicated by the stamp on the files. These are the exact files which I was assured I would not receive. Needless to say I am very disappointed with my first purchase from McMaster Carr. These particular files are of a much lesser of quality than I would expect from a reputable company such as McMaster Carr and will not perform up to the standards which I strive for or expect from a modestly expensive file.

I will be returning my entire purchase for refund. In the future, I hope that this can be rectified as I would like to continue my business with McMaster Carr but will do so with reservation until proven otherwise.


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## AnthonyReed (Sep 20, 2011)

Well written Stef.

As an aside, your professional side kind of gives me the creeps.


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

HA! I thought it would always be the other way around, my personal side seems substantially more strange lol. Gotta keep it business like though. Hootin and hollerin at customer service never gets me anywhere. All fired up aint the way to go on this one.

We shall see what they've got to say for themselves …. ill keep ya posted.


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## AnthonyReed (Sep 20, 2011)

Nah, i was not of the mind that you should handle it any other way than you are. I believe you are dealing with it perfectly.

But that does not change the fact that Stef wearing a tie can give a guy the willies.

Thank you much for your efforts and keeping us in the loop. I appreciate it bud.


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

Funny that their website says ill receive a return email in 30 minutes. Its been an hour and a half. Yesterday they got back to me in record time.

3 place you'll find me in a tie Tony. Wedding, funeral, interview. But, if ya want a pic of ole Stef all dolled up in a suit and tie I can make that happen for ya brother


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## terryR (Jan 30, 2012)

Very professional, Stef. I have bought sooooo much stuff from them in the past 8 years. I hate to leave them since they make buying some stuff so easy, but I friggin hate to see the way they treated you! I wish you had the name of the guy who said "no mexican nicholsons". He was either clueless, or lied outright.

I feel for ya, bro, I just went through all this a couple months ago with my file purchase. 

I'll keep searching, but won't buy a file unless it says Saw Sharpening File in the description and was made in Switzerland. Hopefully the market will improve in a few months…


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

Ive got an email into another company offering the Simonds files. Ive heard/read decent things about their files. If they pan out ill make sure to post but I don't wanna jump the gun just yet.

Ive still got no reply from MMC's New Jersey distribution center. I just sent the same email out to the Illinois office which is closer to their main office. I'll give the rep the benefit of the doubt that he was unaware of the brand they carried. He simply could have been misinformed. Trying not to throw the guy under the bus here but im sure he got my email in NJ and decided to sit on it. Its funny how when the email is in regard to a sale they respond in minutes, when its a complaint .. well … going on 5 hours now.

For what its worth ive got no real beef with them besides stocking a cruddy file and hopefully, being misinformed. In all reality its one bad product out of half a million but as the time goes by here without a response my patience and tolerance is waning. Being in the office all day doing paperwork probably doesn't help either


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

Here's McMaster Carr's response ….

Hi Chris,

Sorry about that. You can return the saw files you don't want for credit to: yadda yadda yadda (company address)

Holy crap. Im floored. Same rep that I had talked to a couple days ago too.

Rant post comin up.


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## AnthonyReed (Sep 20, 2011)

Well at least your hamstrings got a stretching while you were grabbing your ankles.


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

^ lol. Im determined to get to the bottom of this mess.


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

http://www.talkfestool.com/vb/hand-tools/5872-your-help-badly-needed-saw-files.html

Here's a good read on wanting quality saw files.


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## LRR (May 29, 2013)

I got this site from a SMC thread. They have Bahco files except a 4 XX slim which I haven't been able to find. http://www.autotoolworld.com/Bahco-4-186-07-2-0-Slim-Taper-File-7-48-TPI_p_189165.html


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## FenceFurniture (Oct 28, 2011)

Waho, thanks for posting that link. I'm actually going to start a separate thread on here about saw files, because I'm trying to do something about it. After three solid weeks of exhaustive research, it seems that saw files are in a very parlous state. More in the other thread, to which I will put a link in here.

Regards
Brett


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

If I was going to buy a file, American made, for handsaw sharpening, I'd go to eBay…and buy something like this one: http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Nicholson-4-Slim-Taper-File-Saw-Sharpening-21889-Black-Diamond-USA-Cooper-/321064864175?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ac0f509af


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## FenceFurniture (Oct 28, 2011)

Here is the new thread I have started on here:
http://lumberjocks.com/first_topics/2404


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## LoydMoore (Jan 16, 2013)

Just go to Amazon and enter saw file in the search bar. Lot's of vendors have them.


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

You're welcome my friend.

Except your link doesn't work Fence Furniture, Oops.

Post #87


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## CL810 (Mar 21, 2010)

My order from TFWW arrived. This is how the files were marked:

6 XX slim. Marked Grobet with a pistol
6 X slim no marks
5 X slim Grobert Swiss and pistol.


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## FenceFurniture (Oct 28, 2011)

Hmmm…I just tested all the links I've put up with success. Which link do you mean Waho?


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## FenceFurniture (Oct 28, 2011)

CL810, do you have a loupe that you can check the grinding and teeth with? I'd be really interested to know what they look like.


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## Tim457 (Jan 11, 2013)

Fence, the link to the thread you mentioned starting doesn't work for me either.


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## FenceFurniture (Oct 28, 2011)

That's really odd - it works for me, so I don't know what to do about it???

In the mean time, you can see it in the Hand Tools forum. To go to the Petition you should be able to click on the link in my signature. Does that work (again, works for me)?


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

Fellow LJer Brit has this great blog on sharpening saws:
http://lumberjocks.com/Brit/blog/36332.

Hence the need for the saw files.


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## FenceFurniture (Oct 28, 2011)

When I look at the threads in the Hand Tools foum, I can't see it listed, but when I click on the link I posted above it goes straight to it.

Can anyone else see it in the hand tools forum? It's called "We've GOT to do something about Saw Files…and we can".

I'm still feeling my way around LJ - it's very different to the Aussie Forum.

EDIT: here's a screenshot of what I see when I click on the link.


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

Maybe it's waiting for approval?

That's my guess anyways. It'll probably be available tomorrow.


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## FenceFurniture (Oct 28, 2011)

That was it waho - it's approved now. so the link should work.

Btw, just received two boxes of Pferd Tapers today. These are for testing as well. At first I thought they looked pretty good. The 5" Ultra Slim has pretty good grinding, is flat, has a nice gentle taper, although probably not steep enough at <half> Ultra Slim is a different story though. The vast majority of the too-steep taper is in the last inch, but the most disturbing thing is that two of the edges are bent over so that the faces of the file are concave. This is hopeless for trying to shape a gullet - absolutely hopeless. It will result in a gullet that has a hook shape - never heard of anything so preposterous!

And once more the logo (unreadable) is printed on.


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## FenceFurniture (Oct 28, 2011)

How about this gorgeous little jobbie:


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

Yup, this is the problem with saw files. From some of the professionals ive heard from its both a supply and demand issue as well as a manufacturing issue. A lot of companies are not making them any more due to the low demand but with a resurgence in the market (thanks Andy) the demand has jumped a bit and companies are cant get them out fast enough. The manufacturing of crappy files is the other problem. From the teaching of Andy and other around the net there seem to be a few companies making good new files. Grobet swiss, Vallorbe, and Bahco seem to be the good ones. Ive got a lead on a place with files but I want to check out the quality before I go spouting off.


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

http://lumberjocks.com/topics/50943

Here's the petition.

How about the red tang Simond files? Any good? 
Any and all feed back is appreciated.


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

I knew there was one more on that list but it was escaping my "not enough coffee" brain. Simonds = good. So ive heard at least.


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## sikrap (Mar 15, 2009)

What size/sizes are you looking for? I just bought a bunch of NOS Simonds at an auction and I'll be selling some of them.


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## CL810 (Mar 21, 2010)

Fence, sorry can't take pics of the files. I'm out of town for two weeks.


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

NOS ?


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## terryR (Jan 30, 2012)

Hey FenceFurniture, thanks for starting that petition! I saw it on your site yesterday. I have also been frustrated to no end over this subject.

I think Stef is right about supply and demand being part of the problem. Plus, most big companies today care more about their share holders than the finished product. Immediate example that comes to mind, Nicholson. An American brand with years of quality behind their name…oops…need more profits…just buy cheaper steel and train unskilled laborers to shape the files on a machine. I have lost all respect for folks who do business this way! Cheap quality tools add more time and frustration to a project.

I don't think some of the responses here are from folks who realize the problem. We are trying to sharpen warranteed cast steel from the 1920's or earlier. Or even London Spring steel for the lucky ba$tards! Ain't no Home Depot file gonna scratch a piece of London Springy. just sayin'

In fact, I would stay away from eBay, Amazon, NexTag, any quickie quick shopping site. If anyone wants some saw files that came from Amazon (Grobet USA brand), just lemme know, and I'll ship 'em to ya free! That's how bad they perform…

off rant…


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

Maybe they're not harden properly. If the Grobets are useless, I'd try

to harden them to see if you get better results.


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

Terry - maybe you could take a pic of the USA Grobets? I could take a close up of the mexico Nicholsons I got. This way we could all compare apples to apples.


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## terryR (Jan 30, 2012)

Waho, I have sure have thought of that just as an experiment. But when you look closely at a file, and see something like the photo above with grinding marks in an opposite direction from the teeth, it's a waste of time. Those teeth are coming right off with the first use.

I'm still learning about steel and hardening, but I think those files in the photo should've been ground flat before cutting in the teeth.


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## terryR (Jan 30, 2012)

Stef, I like the rasta colored poster! Can we have an LJ March for Files?

My camera isn't very good at macro shots, but I'll try to get some close ups of my crappy files, and a good one.


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## FenceFurniture (Oct 28, 2011)

Sit down, guzzle a beer and Scotch chaser.

Here's the rest of that file:
EDIT: forum software is cropping the pic, so I'll repost tomorrow

The "Made by *&^B)*&TY c" is actually supposed to say "Made by Pferd".

*Yup, respected German name. Whaddya think of that?!*

The other files that I received over the last week are:
FL Grobet Swiss
Grobet USA
F.Dick

I have photos of all of them, and whilst they are nowhere near as bad as that shocker with bent edges, they ain't pretty either. I will not say at this point that they are useless, because they haven't been used in anger yet (but one would have to think that anger will be a certainty .

I cannot see ANY differences between the files from those 3 manufacturers + Pferd. They all have the same black printing for the logo, the steel colour is the same, the score marks are the same, and they also appear to be the same hardness, from some tests I did the afternoon, but you could probably expect that (it's 1am here now).

I am also privvy to a great deal of inside information, which I will not disclose for obvious reasons.

What I can say is that all this talk of re-hardening and so on is just trying to turn a sow's ear into a sow's ear of a different shape.

The problem needs to be solved in a way that means anyone can buy files (from at least one source) without having to worry about the batch consistency and all the other things that can go wrong.

That problem CAN be solved, and there are two options to solve it.

By the way, have a look at this little offering from Tsubosan of Japan.
http://www.tsubosan.co.jp/pdf/info/saw_files/slim_files.pdf

I'd be willing to bet things very precious to me that these are not only good quality (if not very good) but also a good price. It remains to be seen how easy it is to get hold of some


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

Rick - the problem is that they sell the Mexican made nicholsons. Ive actually got a set of those at home but haven't tried them out yet but everything ive read is that these files are garbage. Like two strokes and they fall apart garbage. Its not a problem finding files, its finding good files that's the issue.

Do you have any first hand usage on them?


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

I looked at em, but honestly, im a total rookie when it comes to saw sharpening and im intimidated by them. Everything ive seen shows triangular files for sharpening but ill definitely look around for some more info on them especially if they area viable option. Thanks for the info.


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

If you've got some first hand information on the Nicholson files or the Japanese files it would be great to hear your opinion champ. If not, let me have mine, and you keep yours to yourself. Its my internet and ill do with it as I please  Now if ya would, go maximize the potential of your tool.

Thanks for droppin by!


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## BigRedKnothead (Dec 21, 2012)

Wasting time ehh?

A guy states on his profile, "Lumberjocks is the worst wood forum I've ever seen….." then proceeds to troll that forum, contributing only snide remarks. Not sure we're the ones wasting our time Rick L.

We're all ready to learn from your, "35 years of cabinet/furniture making with 25 years mixed in of Wood Machining, Machine repair. Sculpture and Design degree as well." but your arrogance won't allow it.


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## mochoa (Oct 9, 2009)

Stef just block the troller so we can get back on subject.

Seriously, I'm looking around for a 4" double extra slim saw file and I can't find one anywhere! (Besides Nicholson's of course)

This sucks! My Veritas rip carcass saw needs a touch up. 
Paul Sellers has a technique where he puts a micro bevel on the back of his teeth with an EZ lap paddle. Maybe I can do that to hold me over until the reputable file makers catch up with demand?


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

3 boxes of Simonds files shall be had next week. I was ordering 4 boxes but one was wicked
spendy so I said no to that one.
When I see my order, based kinda what Stef suggested thanks for the help Stef, I let you all
know and share a few with you guys as well. 
For those that don't know, you must purchase 12 files at a time from a Simonds Distributor, 
because that's how many come in a box.
So, 3 boxes are on their way.


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## FenceFurniture (Oct 28, 2011)

Rick L, whilst it is possible to touch up a 60° gullet with a 35° featheredge file (albeit inaccurate, tedious, and twice the strokes) I'd be interested to know how, with all your experience, you'd go about creating new teeth or a major rehab with same?


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## terryR (Jan 30, 2012)

Yeah, see why I posted earlier? If you don't see a problem with finding saw sharpening files, you either already have some, or don't understand the situation.

If terryR calls Highland Woodworking to discuss files in depth, who do you think will answer the phone? A metallurgist or a salesperson? A salesperson…uninterested in files at all…and only able to read the labels of what they have in stock. "Oh, yes, we sell lots of those."

Why do you think Veritas has so many items on backorder? Supply and demand for high quality tools. Want one of those fancy hold down clamps? Get in line behind me, and wait. To me, the wait is part of the price on high end tools. Too bad quality files have now reached that category. That's why they are on backorder from LV, but go to eBay and type in "triangular file"...jeez.

Ya know, I'd love to see a group photo of everything the regulars on here have built the past WEEK. If you think nuthin is going on here, you don't understand the problem…here I go again…

EDIT: damn, the file mentioned in the Highland link above is Out Of Stock.


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## FenceFurniture (Oct 28, 2011)

chrisstef, try filing one of your Mex Spex with another proper file. That'll soon tell you whether or not it'll cut the mustard on saw plate (or just mustard).Just do it on the blank toe if you don't want to wreck a bad file.


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## sikrap (Mar 15, 2009)

Waho, NOS= New Old Stock


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

Thank you Sikrap!


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## BigRedKnothead (Dec 21, 2012)

All I know is, I hope ya'll get this figured out before I want to learn how to sharpen saws in the near future;-)


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

We're workin on it. Ive got a plan. Im just working on filtering the right information to make it all work. Files will be had.


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## robertb574 (Jan 12, 2011)

I read somewhere (maybe here) that there are diamond file equivalents of saw files. Does anyone know of a diamond file actually being used for sharpening handsaws?


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## FenceFurniture (Oct 28, 2011)

Robert, I have searched for them, and they are all "3 Square" (meaning that the edges are not rounded over with a radius).

This means that they would only be useful for the small teeth saws, as the gullets have a sharp "V", and that creates a stress point. That can lead to teeth in bigger saws fracturing. They can still be used for smaller saws because the stresses during sawing are so much less.

This becomes particularly apparent in hard woods, and over here in Oz the woods are really hard.

The fact is that because it is so hard to find a decent 4" DEST file most of the guys making small teeth saws (15+ tpi) have resorted to using Needle files, because that is all they can get to do the job satisfactorily.

However, Needles are not really desirable for two reasons:
1. they are 3 Square with sharp edges
2. the file teeth are double cut, which leaves a rougher surface than a single cut file (which is what Saw Files are defined as).

Furthermore, they taper to an absolute point which is an absolute pain (literally), and the toothed area of the file is shorter, leading to shorter, more frequent strokes required.


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## robertb574 (Jan 12, 2011)

Thanks for the information. Good to know. I did sign the petition.


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## FenceFurniture (Oct 28, 2011)

I posted this news on the petition site today:

Thank you all for signing the Saw Files Petition.

I had a very interesting talk with one of the manufacturers in France last night. They already produce a range of "nearly there" Saw files (I knew this), and really only need some adjustments & include some Double Extra Slim Files to have a TOP NOTCH RANGE.

The main thing they need to correct is the taper, and corner radius consistency on the smallest files (sometimes excellent, sometimes no good). I have developed other tools with this manufacturer, and the latest is their new range of Floats for Planes and Joinery. This will increase to a range of 12-15 Floats in the coming months.

The most important thing to come out of the conversation is that they will be very responsive to public demand (i.e. Petition Signatures).

YOU CAN HELP EVEN MORE:
post a link to this petition & give it some publicity on your Woodwork Forum(s) of choice, or your own Website/Blog.

PLEASE - SPREAD THE WORD - WE ARE STARTING TO WIN ALREADY!

Regards
Brett


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

Well, I think ive finally hit pay dirt. Ive got an order into a local distributor of Simonds files. Endorsed by Wenzelhoff & Sons for their filing needs. Ill report back when the deal is completed … hopefully. Looking at a few days for delivery.

Its been a long road of discoveries, trials and tribulations but I shall triumph over all adversity and grin a satisfactory grin as I sharpen away! (Stef's saw manifesto)


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## AnthonyReed (Sep 20, 2011)

Persistent bastard aint ya?

Nice work Stef. Thanks for the tenaciousness bud.


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

I can be Tony, I was more miffed about the fact that I couldn't get my hands on them, kinda like that bartender chick back in the day, but that's a totally different story. In both cases, I won. I like winning. 

Aaron Hernandez, not winning. Grew up one town over from that idiot. He makes me mad. (mini rant)


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## AnthonyReed (Sep 20, 2011)

Played the friendship tip through to success? Damn you are persistent. 'atta boy!!!


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## terryR (Jan 30, 2012)

Scary…
the smile on that little girl's face is evil indeed…


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## 489tad (Feb 26, 2010)

Chris I saw the file thread pop up again. Also saw you found a set your waiting on. Hope they work out for you. I have a few in my garage shop that I brought home from work. Had them a while, don't know where I got them. Stamped AM Swiss. Did a search and people are looking for them. Mfg'ed by Heller, out of business. If your new ones don't work out and your inclined to continue to search I know you love the Craiger and the thrill of the hunt. Search for old Toolmaker and Machinist boxes that are piecing out the contents. You might get lucky on a set of good needle files.

Hernandaz what a joke. What he get tired of staying in shape and counting his money. I can act like an @ss for half his pay check and not get into big trouble.


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

Im definitely keeping my eye open for NOS both on the craiger and at flea markets Dan. It took me a while to filter all the file information out there but I think I got it all now. It was like learning a different language, kinda.

AH - Half? I coulda taken one game pay check and done all right with it. Must have been watching too much of that ****************************** Bulger trial.


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## theoldfart (Sep 9, 2011)

*STEF*, wuzzup? Any files yet?


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

Nah buddy no dice on the files yet. Im venturing to guess they'll be in on Monday.


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## theoldfart (Sep 9, 2011)

I take it the Grobets at LN are not up to Snuff?

http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?sku=files

I'm ordering an auger file and noticed their saw files.


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## Wally331 (Nov 8, 2012)

The grobets are good files, they just can't keep up to production demands, their backorderd for awhile, always in and out of stock.


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## FenceFurniture (Oct 28, 2011)

Well one thing is certain - they have no taper to speak of. Their durabilty and performance will be known once the 26 file tests have been completed. Posting to the first tester today.


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## hyoung (Mar 4, 2012)

Has anyone tried ICS files out of Wisconsin? Not a lot of choices, but in searching I came across them and wondering if they're any good. Prices seem good.


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

Ive seen them for sale but have never tried them. ICS is a pretty big cutting outfit for concrete saws in the construction industry and a reputable one at that. My last batch of files was from here: http://www.toolzone.com/cgi-bin/ss000006.pl?page=search&SS=saw+file&PR=-1&TB=A&search.x=42&search.y=14 . 
They sell Pferd files and ive really liked the 5" xxslim's I got. The only issue is that you've got to buy a full box which gets pricey at around $50 a box.


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