# Electrical issue



## Trout121180 (Feb 8, 2018)

So here's my problem. I want to start off by saying I know very little about electrical so bear with me. My shop is a 24'x24' detached garage. When I purchased the house power was already run to it. It has a sub panel with 30amp service. So far I have had zero issues running a 60 gallon compress, 1.75hp saw stop. A 1.5hp jointer. And a 3hp planer. Also with dust collection. Obviously not all at the same time. The problem is I am looking to possibly upgrade to a 5hp planer which requires a 30amp breaker. Also the conduit that is run under ground is only 3/4" conduit. Now my electrician is saying that conduit is too small to run bigger wire out to the garage. Basically he is saying I'm gojng to have to dig a trench and run new conduit all the way out to the garage. Is he right? Does anyone have any suggestions I could pass a long to him. Does everyone agree with him? What is the biggest wire you can run in 3/4" conduit. It's about a100' run under ground if that makes any difference. I am figuring at some point whether I get the 5hp planer or not I am going to need more that a 20amp breaker so I might as well do it now before sheetrock goes up in the spring. This is not a cost I was planning on and could really put a dent in my planer fund. We just can't have that. I would be forever in your debt if someone could come to my rescue with a cost effective solution!!!!!


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

This may help:

Conduit Fill Table

Cheers,
Brad


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## Knockonit (Nov 5, 2017)

you want to get an electrical company to do the work, problem with running a secondary service is the size of wire, the distance you are running and the size of conduit, it does heat up when pulling lots of power. 100 ft is quite a long run for some wire size, think of it as a long extention cord, so to speak, if you have experience small cords on over 25 ft plus runs, you can tell of the drop in power, and usually will pop a breaker,

My rule of thumb is to figure how much power i'd need if i used everything, then calculate a shade over half, 
as you usually don't use but a third of power at one time, unless you are a huge shop. Being bigger is always better, so if you have to run new secondary power, go big, and don't look back, there may be some "gotta have, units which could add to load. 
good luck
Rj in az


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## Trout121180 (Feb 8, 2018)

I saw the table but unfortunately it might as well be in Chinese. also i would never dream of doing this myself. I just want to make sure my electrician isn't missing anything. Or taking the more expensive route. I mean I trust him but only as much as I would trust any contractor.


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## Trout121180 (Feb 8, 2018)

Also being just a one man shop I am never running more than one piece of machinery at a time. All I really need is to be ale to have a 30amp breaker or two. At least for now. And according to him the only thing that is stopping me is the wire run to the garage is too small. So to be more specific my questions are

1. What size wire do I need to run from the main breaker to the sub panel to allow for a 30amp breaker.

2. Is 3/4" conduit big enough to fit that wire.

I understand my electrician will know this but as I stated above just trying to see if anyone can come up with a better idea than his. And by better I mean less expensive.

Maybe down the road I will break down and just pay for 100amp service out there. But for right now I am just hoping to be able to run the 5hp planer. I would love to just do both but i just don't have the money.


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## Hermit (Oct 9, 2014)

Check with another electrician but I believe you can go 3 #8s and a #10 ground in 3/4 pipe. Which would allow you to go twin 50amp breakers. That way you could run more than just your 30 amp planer at a time. Otherwise 4-#10's for 30 amp which is designed to trip at 24 amps. If you're pulling wire, might as well go 3-#8s with #10 ground and plenty of soap. Secondly, how many bends/90's do you have? More than 4 and you may have trouble pulling.


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## Rayne (Mar 9, 2014)

> Check with another electrician but I believe you can go 3 #8s and a #10 ground in 3/4 pipe. Which would allow you to go twin 50amp breakers. That way you could run more than just your 30 amp planer at a time. Otherwise 4-#10 s for 30 amp which is designed to trip at 24 amps. If you re pulling wire, might as well go 3-#8s with #10 ground and plenty of soap. Secondly, how many bends/90 s do you have? More than 4 and you may have trouble pulling.
> 
> - Hermit


For a 100' run underground, is that really sufficient? I looked around and it looks like he needs 3-#4's and a #8 ground at the very least for a twin 60 amp breaker. I'm nowhere near an expert, but I'd be worried if it's anything under that due to the run. The electrician will definitely be able to tell him. If going with #4's, the 3/4" conduit is indeed too small.


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## Magnum (Feb 5, 2010)

Get a Licensed Electrician to do the work! INSURANCE!!!! If something goes wrong and they find out YOU did the wiring, You're NOT COVERED!


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## Hermit (Oct 9, 2014)

I'm no expert but do know he can at least go to a 30 amp in 3/4 pipe. Again, contact another licensed electrician. It costs you nothing.


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## Rayne (Mar 9, 2014)

> Get a Licensed Electrician to do the work! INSURANCE!!!! If something goes wrong and they find out YOU did the wiring, You re NOT COVERED!
> 
> - Rick


He's not doing it. He just wants second opinions from us to see if his electrician is correct about the 3/4" conduit size being too small; you know, to help from being swindled. .


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## Trout121180 (Feb 8, 2018)

The only problem with checking with another electrician is trying to get one out in a reasonable amount of time with out him charging you an arm and a leg. I have used this guy before and have some what of a report with him. I guess I was looking for some miracle answer that doesn't exist.

Hermit, 
I am going to propose what you gave me to him. Thank you for spending the time to break things down for me.

I may just end up biting the bullet and burying new conduit. What a waste. I can't believe the previous home owner wouldn't spring for bigger conduit. What a waste. This really put a damper on things. Now it looks like holding off on a planer or not getting what I wanted to get. And since I really had my heart set on it I can't imagine settling for something else.


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## Rayne (Mar 9, 2014)

> The only problem with checking with another electrician is trying to get one out in a reasonable amount of time with out him charging you an arm and a leg. I have used this guy before and have some what of a report with him. I guess I was looking for some miracle answer that doesn't exist.
> 
> Hermit,
> I am going to propose what you gave me to him. Thank you for spending the time to break things down for me.
> ...


Maybe you could reduce the cost of the new conduit install if you rent a small excavator and dig the trench yourself. Maybe get the details from your electrician to see what you could do to reduce it. I can't imagine it costing too much more for running the conduit if the ends are easy to access and reroute it to the new one. (well, that's what I would do if I was in your position).


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## JBrow (Nov 18, 2015)

Trout121180,

It may be worth a phone call to your county/city electrical inspector. They should be able to tell you what upgrade can be achieved without replacing the ¾" conduit.

Since I am not an electrician, I could well be wrong, but is seems that #6 copper conductors can handle 50 amps up to a distance of 115 feet. From Mr. Unix's table, it looks like # 6 may be allowed in ¾" pipe. But, as Hermit points out, pulling those conductors 100' in ¾" pipe may be impractical.

Another option if trenching is required may be direct buried service entrance cable. However I am not knowledgeable of current code or rules in your area. If allowed, it may save some money. From what I recall, it requires no conduit and aluminum direct buried cable may be cheaper than copper conductors. However, the new trench may need to be deeper, adding to labor costs.


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## WhyMe (Feb 15, 2014)

3/4" conduit can handle four #6 Cu THHN/THWN. Run three #6 and one #10. This can be fed by up to a 70A breaker. A 100ft is of no issue.


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## msinc (Jan 8, 2017)

> Check with another electrician but I believe you can go 3 #8s and a #10 ground in 3/4 pipe. Which would allow you to go twin 50amp breakers. That way you could run more than just your 30 amp planer at a time. Otherwise 4-#10 s for 30 amp which is designed to trip at 24 amps. If you re pulling wire, might as well go 3-#8s with #10 ground and plenty of soap. Secondly, how many bends/90 s do you have? More than 4 and you may have trouble pulling.
> 
> - Hermit
> 
> ...


You are correct sir, it is not enough. For a 100 ft run he should have #4 wire {minimum} and he could use a 50 amp breaker for a main in the sub panel. Then he would have whatever various breakers less than 50 he needs. That voltage drop is what will get you…the very first thing to look at is how many volts he currently has in the main panel he intends to feed from. I just had separate 200 amp service ran to what is going to be my new shop. It was 125 feet away. You get to a point where the run is too long to simply sub feed. I get that nobody wants to spend the money for another service, but it really is the best way to go when you get a run that is over 50 feet or so.
Zero chance that 3/4 conduit is going to do much good.


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## B4B (Sep 6, 2014)

Without knowing your workflow, I'll say this.

If you are upgrading your sub panel, go worth a 100amp service, at a minimum.

That's either 1/0 aluminum, or #1 copper. That will keep voltage drop under 3% for the entire run (150 feet from panel to panel).

That most definitely means a larger conduit.

At this size, 1/0 aluminum is perfectly safe, most feeders for your utility drop to your panel are aluminum.

Option two is to stuff the existing conduit to it's max fill. Just keep in mind if you add a dust collector to your shop, that'll be at least two pieces of 240v equipment drawwing power at the same time.


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## Trout121180 (Feb 8, 2018)

It's basically a straight shot from the house to the garage. I don't believe there would be any bends. And I appreciate all the help guys I really do!!! I am just really surprised that this guy cheaped out with the conduit. Everything else that he had done in the house is done right!!! It just seems like common sense that if you are going to spend the money to run power out to the garage you would send more than 30amp service. He was a big car guy so you would think he would maybe might want to run a welder or car lift or something. Sorry. Just venting. I guess I should be happy that he had a 24'x24' garage built when we already have an oversized two car garage attached to the house. I guess it's all about perspective. I am talking with my electrician tomorrow. I will let you guys know what his plan is and what it's going to cost me to see if I should try and get someone else out here for a quote.


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## woodbutcherbynight (Oct 21, 2011)

Take in mind that conduit was not meant to be filled to capacity with wire. Cramming more wire into this smaller space creates heat issues which can cause fire. Granted we are talking worst case but that is how codes come into existence in the first place, disasters.

Now if you are going to run new wire to your shop and do not have water already consider at the least putting in a pipe and having it already in the ground (not in same trench) so if you choose later it is a much less expensive task. If I ever build a new shop I plan on a 1/2 bath with a shower because I do not always do woodworking and some task are that nasty that you don't want it in the house. Electrical service, 100 amp service. Now to win the lottery to pay for all that.

LOL


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## chrisirving (Mar 21, 2017)

I'm an electrical contractor, I think one thing being overlooked is that it's very often impossible to repull new wiring in an existing underground conduit. I'm sure the conduit and wiring were sized correctly for the existing load for a two car garage with no anticipation of any additional load, having said that, I always pull #6 thhn to any garage just in case anything is added in the future.
Sounds like you need a larger feed and need to abandon the old feeder. When this is done the building will need to be brought up to code also, GFCI receptacles, new grounding (since it's a detached building) and dedicated circuits where needed


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## Sparks500 (Jun 30, 2017)

This is one where I would have suggested a 1½" poly be cable plowed in between buildings. Cable plow will do less damage to the yard, larger conduit will give you future options. Cost difference between pipe sizes is minimal, and poly never leaks or rots. JMO.


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## RobHannon (Dec 12, 2016)

Full disclosure I am not an electrician, but I have done a moderate amount of electrical work including running a sub panel to my detached garage. 3/4" for a 100' run was a big mistake and your electrician is right that it is not sufficient if you want to go bigger. My run is about 60' and I went with 2" conduit for a 60amp subpanel. I wish I had gone with 100amp now, but it certainly works as is for my needs. Depending on what is in the path between the outbuilding and your main panel, cable plowing may be the best option. I had to trench under a driveway and that certainly added complexity and in retrospect I would have paid someone to do it just to save time and backache.

Local laws are different everywhere so if you aren't up to speed with what is required in your case, pay a professional. I am not one who says that about many things, but running services (gas, electric, water) underground can get real expensive if a mistake is made.


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## Holbs (Nov 4, 2012)

Is a overhead run an option with today's electrical codes?


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

The electrician knows what he's talking about. This is a simple job.

I suggest you pull the wire but leave the old conduit as a run for a future cable like coax or network.


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## JCamp (Nov 22, 2016)

Personally I would get a buddy with a tractor that had a plow and use it to dig a nice deep ditch and run direct bury wire. id also over size it a bit since it is a long run and you may eventually get more equipment. Where I am I don't have to worry about codes like some folks in the cities. Even if you only do the digging and running of the wire it should really knock down the cost cause the electrician only has to do the hook up


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## Magnum (Feb 5, 2010)

> I m an electrical contractor, I think one thing being overlooked is that it s very often impossible to repull new wiring in an existing underground conduit. I m sure the conduit and wiring were sized correctly for the existing load for a two car garage with no anticipation of any additional load, having said that, I always pull #6 thhn to any garage just in case anything is added in the future.
> *Sounds like you need a larger feed and need to abandon the old feeder. When this is done the building will need to be brought up to code also, GFCI receptacles, new grounding (since it s a detached building) and dedicated circuits where needed
> *
> - chrisirving


This is an Electrician Talking! He's Right! 
"When this is done the building will need to be brought up to code also," UH OH! $$$$$$$$$$$!!!

Is a Clean/New Overhead Run Possible?

Rick


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## Trout121180 (Feb 8, 2018)

Luckily the building is only a couple of years old. I already had a licensed electrician do some work in the building. Everything is ground correctly and gfis are in place up to code. Now as far as if anything else has to be done once more power is added I have no clue which is why I am going to be paying someone. And yes Chris V. Unfortunately it looks like you are correct. The only option I really seem to have is to start from scratch. Looks like the planer will have to wait. Now the question is anyone have a clue what it's going to cost me to have 100amp service put in. It's no more than a 100ft run. Obviously there will be variables but just looking for a ball park. $1000. $5000. I'm sure my electrician will give me a quote I'm just being impatient and want to know if I should even waste his time. If we are talking thousands and thousands of dollars it might just not happen. At least not right now.


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## Knockonit (Nov 5, 2017)

I'd say around 2k plus, problem is wire and conduit will be over half that, panel is cheap, breakers are about 150 i think, been awhile since i bought a 100 amp breaker.

You can do the work, size the wire, drop the conduit, pull the wire, to panel location, and let electrician do the rest. 
good luck, great learning curve.


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## WhyMe (Feb 15, 2014)

*I will repeat…* 3/4" conduit can handle four #6 Cu THHN/THWN. Run three #6 and one #10. This can be fed by up to a 70A breaker. A 100ft is of no issue for voltage drop. Use plently of lube and use the old wires to pull in the new.

People who are saying #4 Cu THHN/THWN is needed for 50A at 100ft are incorrect. #6 THHN/THWN is rated at 65A @ 75degC and can be on the next standard size breaker which is 70A. At a full 240V 70A load the VD is less than 3%.


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## WhyMe (Feb 15, 2014)

Trout121180, have you done load calculations to know that you do need a full 100A feed? You may find going with 60A to 70A will work and it will save you a ton of money by using the existing conduit and just pulling the #6 THHN.


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## Trout121180 (Feb 8, 2018)

Why me,
I sent you a email. But to answer your question as of right now I have no need for 100amp service. In fact everything in my shop is powered just fine. My compressor, table saw, dust collection, modine heater, jointer, are hooked and with no issues what so ever. I have never even popped a breaker once. And to be honest after I upgrade my planer I don't think there is anything in the near future as far as big machinery goes that will require anything more than the 20amp breakers I already have. That is why at least for now all I want to accomplish is to have one 30amp breaker that I can use. Someone recommended trying the planer in one of the 230v 20amp outlets I have now. He said there is a chance that it would work as long as I'm not running anything else. he runs a 5hp table saw off a 20amp breaker and has never had a problem. According to him just because it says 5hp doesn't mean it's really 5hp. But the problem is you have to run a dust collector with a planer. I am not much of a risk taker. And I don't want to have a 600lb several thousand dollar paper weight in my garage. Hopefully my electrician or any electrician in my area will agree with you and I will be back in business. I greatly appreciate your advice. I will let you know what he says. And when and if I end up getting my planer going I will be more than happy to post some pictures.


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## msinc (Jan 8, 2017)

You are getting some bad or mis-information here. One person has suggested you need "new grounding" because the building is detached. This is incorrect and it is not NEC code. Per feed from the power company {you have one meter on your house correct??} you must only have one earth ground, period, end of story. If you sub feed to another building from an existing source, as it sounds like you are doing, you *must run the ground all the way back to the main panel so it uses the one single earth ground for the main feed.* If you install a second earth ground {"new grounding since it's a detached building"} you now have potential for difference in voltage and that is bad and very definitely not to NEC code at all. 
Looks like to me someone calling himself an electrical contractor would know that. I am sure after reading this he will tell us he meant just the grounds in the receptacles….need to be "new"....yeah, Okay. 
Now, if you run a whole new power supply {another hook up from the power company with another meter} then you need another earth ground because you have a separate source. 
I am always amazed at the electrical advice given on this forum….sooner or later someone is going to get hurt…bad.


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## WhyMe (Feb 15, 2014)

> You are getting some bad or mis-information here. One person has suggested you need "new grounding" because the building is detached. This is incorrect and it is not NEC code. Per feed from the power company {you have one meter on your house correct??} you must only have one earth ground, period, end of story. If you sub feed to another building from an existing source, as it sounds like you are doing, you *must run the ground all the way back to the main panel so it uses the one single earth ground for the main feed.* If you install a second earth ground {"new grounding since it s a detached building"} you now have potential for difference in voltage and that is bad and very definitely not to NEC code at all.
> Looks like to me someone calling himself an electrical contractor would know that. I am sure after reading this he will tell us he meant just the grounds in the receptacles….need to be "new"....yeah, Okay.
> Now, if you run a whole new power supply {another hook up from the power company with another meter} then you need another earth ground because you have a separate source.
> I am always amazed at the electrical advice given on this forum….sooner or later someone is going to get hurt…bad.
> ...


If the detached structure is supplied by a feeder that is supplying multiple circuits, such as using a subpanel, a grounding electrode system is required at the detached structure (NEC 250.32). The grounding electrode system is for directing lighting strikes to earth. The equipment ground is run with the feeder current carrying conductors between building panels and its purpose is to clear fault current. The electrode ground to earth and the equipment ground serve two different purposes.

I need to add that the bonding of the neutral and ground is only done at the main first disconnect location. The neutral is isolated from ground at secondary/subpanels.


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## Trout121180 (Feb 8, 2018)

All I know is that everything was up to code when I purchased the house. The previous owner was Meticulous with his paper work and still had the paper from the building inspector for both the deck and the garage, permit and all. Also when I had the house inspected he looked at both electrical boxes and the paper work and assured me everything was in order. All I have done since then was add a little bit bigger sub panel along with some outlets. All work was done by a licensed electrician. I don't know anything about electricity but I do know enough not to hire "Bob the handy man" to do any electrical work." Anybody that touches my breaker box will be licensed period. Now just because he is licensed doesn't mean he won't try and get some extra bucks out of me which is why I am on this forum asking questions.

On a side note I haven't read a single thread that had anything to do with electricity that didn't have some spirited debate. I appreciate every and anyone that has taken the time out of their busy day to respond to my post. But any information given to me is just for a reference. As I said before only a licensed will be doing any work.


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## chrisirving (Mar 21, 2017)

> You are getting some bad or mis-information here. One person has suggested you need "new grounding" because the building is detached. This is incorrect and it is not NEC code. Per feed from the power company {you have one meter on your house correct??} you must only have one earth ground, period, end of story. If you sub feed to another building from an existing source, as it sounds like you are doing, you *must run the ground all the way back to the main panel so it uses the one single earth ground for the main feed.* If you install a second earth ground {"new grounding since it s a detached building"} you now have potential for difference in voltage and that is bad and very definitely not to NEC code at all.
> Looks like to me someone calling himself an electrical contractor would know that. I am sure after reading this he will tell us he meant just the grounds in the receptacles….need to be "new"....yeah, Okay.
> Now, if you run a whole new power supply {another hook up from the power company with another meter} then you need another earth ground because you have a separate source.
> I am always amazed at the electrical advice given on this forum….sooner or later someone is going to get hurt…bad.
> ...


And this is why I hesitate to give any electrical advice here. I actually do this for a living and have to pass inspections


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## Mike_D_S (May 3, 2012)

msinc,

Can you clarify your response a bit? Though I'm not an electrician, it is my understanding that 250.32(b) required a separate ground rod at the detached structure in the situation the OP presents where he'll be using a feeder to a sub panel.

You're response reads as you don't need the additional ground rod at the detached structure. But i'm not sure if you meant that you don't need the grounding rod or if you were trying to say that you need the grounding rod *as well as* the ground line running back to the main panel primary grounding plane?

Thanks,
Mike


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## Mike_D_S (May 3, 2012)

I was typing away while the other guys were posting apparently.


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

> *I will repeat…* 3/4" conduit can handle four #6 Cu THHN/THWN. Run three #6 and one #10. This can be fed by up to a 70A breaker. A 100ft is of no issue for voltage drop. Use plently of lube and use the old wires to pull in the new.
> 
> People who are saying #4 Cu THHN/THWN is needed for 50A at 100ft are incorrect. #6 THHN/THWN is rated at 65A @ 75degC and can be on the next standard size breaker which is 70A. At a full 240V 70A load the VD is less than 3%.
> 
> - WhyMe


Ditto. 18 yrs electrical here.

Use the old wire to pull the new in. Put in a new breaker. Done.

If it's only a couple years old there shouldn't be any problems if all the joints are sound. Even if there's rocks and mud you can always swab it.

Sounds like a 300-500$ to me.


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## msinc (Jan 8, 2017)

> msinc,
> 
> Can you clarify your response a bit? Though I m not an electrician, it is my understanding that 250.32(b) required a separate ground rod at the detached structure in the situation the OP presents where he ll be using a feeder to a sub panel.
> 
> ...


This pretty much covers what I am saying…..250.32{B} is an exception code:

By changing the provisions of previous 250.32(B)(2) to an exception to 250.32(B), the NEC can continue to include requirements that would be applicable to existing buildings or structures grounded using the grounded conductor, while at the same time strengthening the requirement of 250.32(B) as the main rule prohibiting the use of the grounded conductor for grounding purposes for new installations. *This change also helps reduce the number of designs that seemingly invite the possibilities of inappropriate neutral-to-ground connections that can and often do happen later, which is uncontrollable by any code rule.*

As an example, while complying with previous 250.32(B)(2), there may not be a "continuous metallic path" between the two buildings or structures at the time of installation or the inspection by the authority having jurisdiction (AHJ). However, at a later date a phone line might be run between the two buildings or structures. How about a metal gas pipe? What about a low-voltage intercom system between the two buildings?* However innocent these actions might be, they provide a "continuous metal path" between the two buildings that has the potential to introduce a parallel path for grounding that could result in a difference of voltage potential between these two paths.*

It's not that you don't "need" the additional ground, it's that you don't want it. Having two earth grounds opens the possibility of a potential of difference in voltage. At best you will destroy electrical equipment in the buildings, at worst somebody is going to get hurt. Code exceptions make it "doable" or maybe a better way of saying it is "inspectable", they do not by any means make it right or suggested.
Now, all this said, the NEC is just a code…they don't inspect anything. The AHJ {authority having jurisdiction} sets the inspection criteria to whatever they want. It amazes me to see some of these changes in regards to what they will and will not allow. I build houses in Maryland and Virginia. Electrical wise, the county in Va. lets quite a bit go electrical wise, while Md. is way beyond NEC. Plumbing is the opposite, Va. is decades ahead of Maryland with septic systems. 
Three number 6 and a number 10 wire pulled thru 100 foot of 3/4" conduit??? Yeah, that's happenin'!!!!! He wont have to worry about passing any inspections cause he will never get that pulled thru.


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## Mike_D_S (May 3, 2012)

music,

I always find these discussions interesting, so I'm still a little confused.

What you say seems to go directly against my understanding of the secondary grounding rod at the remote structure. Assuming the second panel is wired in with what I understand to be compliance with a neutral and grounding circuit from the main panel and the neutral is not bonded to ground in the second, then lack of the second grounding rod at the remote structure creates a risk of induced voltage on the ground circuit from say a lightning strike on the main structure?

In the wiring as described above (neutral and ground, separated at the remote panel), then having additional metallic connections (gas pipe or whatever) between buildings doesn't create secondary return paths as the isolated neutral doesn't allow that. The case where these would end up as returns would be if there already existed a fault putting return current on the grounding plane?

The point you are making about not using a grounding rod seems to only be an issue when the neutral is bonded to ground at both panels?

Thanks,
Mike


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## WhyMe (Feb 15, 2014)

> Three number 6 and a number 10 wire pulled thru 100 foot of 3/4" conduit??? Yeah, that s happenin !!!!! He wont have to worry about passing any inspections cause he will never get that pulled thru.
> 
> - msinc


That is just plain false. If the conduit is instatlled correctly pulling three #6 and one #10 thru 3/4" is not a problem at 100ft. I've done it a few times. My suggestion is to pull stranded wire and have a helper lubing and feeding as you pull.


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## Trout121180 (Feb 8, 2018)

Well we are going to find out soon enough. Electrcian should be coming next week. I will definitely post what ends up happening.


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## Mike_D_S (May 3, 2012)

Without getting into the feasibility of the exact wire count, what's the method for pulling multiple wires 100 ft through conduit? How do you actually go about it?


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## WhyMe (Feb 15, 2014)

Here's a good video. Main thing is to keep the pull head as small as possible and stagger the wires to keep from having a big knot of wire at the connection with the pull tape/rope.


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## jonah (May 15, 2009)

You also want to lubricate, lubricate, and lubricate. Especially for small, metal conduit like 3/4". You really need two people. One to feed and lubricate, and one to pull.


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## Mike_D_S (May 3, 2012)

If burying a new conduit, is there any real downside to going to larger conduit sizes?

One of the reasons I'm interested in this discussion is I need to run a subpanel in my attached garage and the construction of my house doesn't permit running the feeder inside without significant sheetrock or siding work. So I was going to trench around the outside perimeter and enter through the garage wall.

I was thinking to run 1", but other than cost, any reason not to go with 1 1/2" or bigger?

It would be really overkill for me I understand, but as a general concept, if 1" is good, then is 2" better?

Mike


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## Fresch (Feb 21, 2013)

2" is real big, just need the size for the amps you need MDS.
Trout you can try to pull on the wire now to see if it moves, turned off, 100' pull not hard for an Electrician we do it all the time. I can see where people who don't pull wire for money could find it hard if not impossible; if it's free in the pipe it will pull.
Whyme , nice pic. looks like how my shop is wired. I used my fishtape and Kleins to pull in my feeder, showed wife how to square the wire and lube, then did it all after she got white polywater on here hands! Haha, it's like a body fluid for you non electrical guys.


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## msinc (Jan 8, 2017)

> music,
> 
> I always find these discussions interesting, so I m still a little confused.
> 
> ...


I understand that this is confusing. Sorry for that. Your last sentence is correct. In a perfect world….there would be no panels except those that do not have a jumper between the neutral and earth grounds. This is something they just started doing in the last ten years or so. Prior to that all panels had the neutral and earth grounds connected. That is why the code is called a "code exception". The confusing part is when you have guys from different parts of the country that are held accountable to two different AHJ's. One may allow for this exception no problem. Where I live they very definitely do not. Based on what I have seen they may even allow two earth grounds even when the neutral and earth is connected simply because they lack a clear understanding of the problem or danger this may cause. 
Suggest you google "voltage potential difference danger" and if you really want to read something interesting google "stray voltage danger". Sorry for the confusion. It doesn't take no where near the amount of electricity some people would think it takes to hurt you.


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## ssnvet (Jan 10, 2012)

With a 100' run, I think you're going to be stuck digging it all up and larger cable in larger conduit to a new sub panel… might as well go double ought to a 100 panel at that point. It's going to cost you ~ a grand for the electrician on top of digging it all up.

It sounds like you have a pretty nice setup and are getting by with the 30 amp. I think I'd punt the 5 HP dream and put that money somewhere else.


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## WhyMe (Feb 15, 2014)

> *I will repeat…* 3/4" conduit can handle four #6 Cu THHN/THWN. Run three #6 and one #10. This can be fed by up to a 70A breaker. A 100ft is of no issue for voltage drop. Use plently of lube and use the old wires to pull in the new.
> 
> People who are saying #4 Cu THHN/THWN is needed for 50A at 100ft are incorrect. #6 THHN/THWN is rated at 65A @ 75degC and can be on the next standard size breaker which is 70A. At a full 240V 70A load the VD is less than 3%.
> 
> - WhyMe


I need to clarify the use of #6 THHN with a #10 THHN ground. I said the #6 THHN can be protected up to 70A and it can, but paired with a #10 for a ground limits the circuit to 60A because of the #10 ground. To use the #6 for 70A will require the ground to be #8.


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## WhyMe (Feb 15, 2014)

> With a 100 run, I think you re going to be stuck digging it all up and larger cable in larger conduit to a new sub panel… might as well go double ought to a 100 panel at that point. It s going to cost you ~ a grand for the electrician on top of digging it all up.
> 
> It sounds like you have a pretty nice setup and are getting by with the 30 amp. I think I d punt the 5 HP dream and put that money somewhere else.
> 
> - Mainiac Matt


Do you realize 2/0 Cu is rated to 175A? Why would you run 2/0 Cu to a 100A panel? #3 Cu or #1 Al is good for 100A. A 100ft feeder using 2/0 Cu will cost about $800 just for the wire.


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

Anything bigger than 1-1/4" pipe is way overkill.

I doubt any pipe below ground on a residential job is rigid or imc. Overkill as well.


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## Mike_D_S (May 3, 2012)

I'm actually planning to run 1", my question was really just more out of pure curiosity.

Currently my garage has one 220V outlet and one 15 amp 110 circuit. So I often have to run an extension cord to an exterior outlet around the side of the garage. So I just want to be able to have two 220 outlets and a few additional 110V outlets without having to use extension cords.


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## Trout121180 (Feb 8, 2018)

Problem is already sold my old planer. As of today it's gone. So I have to get something. I am very hopeful that I'm going to have 50-70amp service by rerunning the wire through the existing conduit. My electrcian said something about seeing how the old wires move through the conduit. He said that will give us a good indication if and what we can attempt to run through. Now it's just a waiting game. Hoping to hear from him by this weekend. Will post what happens as soon as I know.


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## Sparks500 (Jun 30, 2017)

> Anything bigger than 1-1/4" pipe is way overkill.
> 
> I doubt any pipe below ground on a residential job is rigid or imc. Overkill as well.
> 
> - TheFridge


If you're the one pulling the wire, oversize is nice.
I suggested 1½ poly. Cost difference is minimal. and you really don't want to have this problem again.
You could check with some of the trenching and directional boring outfits in the area, sometimes they'll have a partial reel of poly or uniduct, which is just poly with the wires already installed.


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## BlasterStumps (Mar 13, 2017)

You're getting some good advice from other posters. I would talk more with that electrician if you decide on changing the wire size and sub panel. 
Don't strictly focus on the new electrical components and forget to get underground line locates if you have a trench to dig. If you cut something, your personal safety or safety of others could be affected. Not to mention your budget could take a big hit for repairs.


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## Hermit (Oct 9, 2014)

To the original poster….you've obviously seen many replies with different opinions. Here is what i would do in your situation….
Go down to your local Building department. Ask for their electrical inspector. He may be out of the office but dont give up. Call and leave a message for him to call you back. There is no charge for this. Tell him your situation and what you're wanting to achieve. Ask if a permit is required, i can just about guarantee it is. Ask him the same questions you've asked us. Now you have the definitive legal answer for the county you reside in. There are so many conflicting answers here on this thread that I wouldn't rely on any of them, including my earlier response.

As an example, one response to your question said you can't bury an electrical and water line in the same trench. Where I live, you can which I verified from the building department prior to and inspected by the electrical inspector prior to backfill.

This advice should be for anyone looking to upgrade their service or install new. Do you homework. Make sure you hire a licensed electrician and you have verified he is licensed, has insurance and workers comp.

Also, I ve never heard of an electrician charging for an estimate. Again, maybe this is a regional thing.


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## Trout121180 (Feb 8, 2018)

Hermit,
I agree 100%. Only a licensed electrician will be doing work on my house. This is only one of many different ways I am trying to do "my homework". Although I greatly appreciate any and all advice given on this forum I understand that I have to take it for what it is. Any information is only to try to educate myself and give myself a little better understanding when taking to the professional that will be doing the work. All though he has done work before and I trust him. As I said before I only trust him as much as I would any contractor. I am lucky enough to live in a nice town and a decent house. And sometimes that gives a contractor the impression that they can try and get away with charging a little more or maybe suggesting something that isn't totally necessary. Although this particular guy has never given me any reason not to trust him and I suspicious of anyone that I have to give money to. I am always looking for a good deal. I I figure the more I know the better chance that I won't get swindled over charged or flat out ripped off.


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## Trout121180 (Feb 8, 2018)

So the electrcian stopped by today. He stated that his plan is to give me a 60amp panel. He stated that the actual panel that I have now(which is brand new) is plenty big enough. He plans on running 3 #6's and a #10 ground. His major concern is of course being able to get the wires through. He is going to stop back over with a snake. He said if he can run the snake through he is confident he can use the old wires to pull the new wires through. He wants to run the snake because if there is something crazy under ground this will tell him. If he just tried to pull the new wires through with the old ones and it got stuck in the middle I could be stuck without any power at all. He made it clear that even if the snake does go through there is still a chance this could happen. Apparently he does a lot of pool wiring so he said he has pulled this much wire through 3/4" before. The wire is going to cost me a couple hundred then some odds and ends like 2 30amp outlets a 30amp breaker a J box ect. He said two guys for a couple 2-3 hours. All in all he gave me an estimate of $300-$500 dollars. He will know better after he gets all the supplies. Then hopefully everything goes quick and they are out of there no more than 2 hours. He said $500 is in the high side and shouldn't be that much unless they run into trouble.

Wish me luck. Hopefully everything works out. I am throwing caution into the wind and just ordering my brand new Oliver 4420 planer tomorrow morning. I will post more as soon as the wires get run which will be this week. And of course I will post pictures as soon as the new planer arrives!!!


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

Sounds like you have a good solution, congrats!


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## Trout121180 (Feb 8, 2018)

GREAT NEWS!!!!! My electrician came over today and we fed a snake through the 100' of under ground conduit from end to end with the old wires still in there with NO ISSUES at all. He has very little doubt that if the snake went through that easy with the old wires still in there that he will not have a problem running three #6's and a #10. Looks like I will be needing that inspector after all. 
I want to send out a SPECIAL THANK YOU to both WHYME and CHRISIRVING everything you guys said was right on. WHYME if you had not taken the time to reiterate the fact that I could run the #6's who know where I would be. Maybe my electrician would have gone that route once he saw things maybe not. I would like to hope so but having the knowledge to be able to tell him exactly what I wanted possibly saved me a ton of money. He is coming on Monday morning to do all the work. My Oliver 4420 planer is currently enroute from Kent Washington. It is scheduled to arrive on Wednesday. I will gladly post some pictures of everything hooked and ready to go. Haven't been this excited in a while. Thanks again to everybody. Wish me luck and I will update on Monday


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## WhyMe (Feb 15, 2014)

I'm glad it all worked out for you. Enjoy your new power.


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## jimintx (Jan 23, 2014)

Threads like this are remarkable in every way.


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## Trout121180 (Feb 8, 2018)

Well gentlemen it's official!!!!!! Three #6's and a #10 were successfully run around 100' under ground in 3/4" conduit. I am now hooked up with 60amps out to the garage!!!!!!!!Everything is ready to go. The Oliver 4420 will be here Wednesday and I will happily post some more pictures once it arrives!!!!!!! I know I said it before but I want to say it again. WHY ME thank you for taking the time out of your busy day to help out a complete stranger!! I am a firm believe in Karma so hopefully you have some good Karma coming your way. Not that I have much to offer but I am in your debt. Thanks again!!!


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

Don't you just love it when a plan works!


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## Trout121180 (Feb 8, 2018)

Or as Hannibal from the A-Team used to say.

"I Love It When A Plan Comes Together."


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## Trout121180 (Feb 8, 2018)

Here it is!!!!!

This planer is BAD A##!!!!!

I will have a review of the Oliver 4420 shortly.


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## Rayne (Mar 9, 2014)

> Here it is!!!!!
> 
> This planer is BAD A##!!!!!
> 
> ...


That is a beautiful beast. Glad everything worked out for you. Makin' time!


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)




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