# Anybody care to discuss your procedures or formulas, if any, for pricing of your products?



## barringerfurniture (Sep 17, 2013)

Taking a really close look at my pricing these days and really trying to take everything into account in terms of setting aside taxes and retirement, waste, tool maintenance, transportation expenses and everything else I can think of.

I really feel like I'm in this now for the long haul, though it's not doing much for me yet. Still making ends meet by other means but I feel it's important to set a precedent now or never, that will support me in the long run if I really plan on doing this.

After adjusting my prices recently (available on my website if anyone cares to have a look), they seem high. But they are very well thought out and actually seem consistent with those of many other makers who do work like mine. I don't have the reputation, inventory or clientele that they do yet (inventory's steadily growing). But as I said, I think it's important to set that precedent now or never.

One thing I'm finding out is that certain kinds of items would be extremely unprofitable for me to produce unless the prices were sky-high to the point of being unsaleable. These tend to be smaller items because even though they're small, they can still be a ton of work.

Any thoughts or advice always welcome.

Thanks for reading.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

Refined work costs real money because the processes
involved consume a lot of time. Only affluent people can 
afford it these days.

Some woodworkers improve their visibility by writing
for magazines. Fine Woodworking doesn't pay much
at all for writing, but the recognition is beneficial.

Some turn to teaching as well.

My philosophy is the work has to be proprietary and
stunning if you want to make some money at furniture.
That means you'll need to develop skills that make
your work stand out so much from the competition
that no client will ever be able to make a lateral
price comparison. Basically, make the work impossible
to knock-off without a silly amount of time investment
and head scratching by the person attempting to 
copy it. One very successful woodworker is 
known for exacting reproductions of the designs
of Jacques-Emile Ruhlmann, which appeal to wealthy
people as you literally cannot get a Ruhlmann knock-off
that's both cheap and beautiful. The workmanship
and quality is right there where anybody can see
that it required mastery to pull it off.

To my mind the best ways to do this are to master
veneering and bending and shoot for the truly wealthy
clientele. At one time, carving was relevant too but 
with CNC I don't know anymore.


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## barringerfurniture (Sep 17, 2013)

Loren, thanks for the input. I too have thought of teaching, writing and other academic aspects of what I do to bring in some income and build a reputation.

As a side note, I have a music degree (Bachelor of Music in Classical Guitar). Every professional musician I've ever met in the classical field (extremely high caliber of musicianship), teaches in some capacity and writes, etc. Maybe every once in a while, they play a gig and get paid well. Weekly restaurant gigs for tips help. You have to "piece together" a living from different sources.

It seems in the high-end furniture field you almost have to incorporate some academic aspect into what you do in order to survive.

Yep. Gotta go for the "richies". Gotta look and act professional I think and have your ducks in a row.

But on the other hand, I think people who are potentially interested in work like mine, are looking for something a little different and a bit more personal - a higher level of involvement or a connection to the work. If they wanted a suit and tie salesman with a name tag, they would go to Macy's or La-z-boy.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

I'd advise you to make mirror frames and perhaps
light fixtures. One of the problems of selling work
at craft shows is people will ooh and ahh over it,
then not buy it because they don't know where
to put it. Mirrors and light fixtures don't have
that problem.

I don't know about that "personal" connection. I
think that's a flimsy thesis. I used to think that
mattered more than I now think it does, having
worked as a cabinetmaker, bidding jobs. Even
though I can be charming if I want to be, in the
end the cold reality is that a lot of clients will
go for a cheaper bid. I build guitars from time to 
time and while people are enthusiastic about it, 
they go away when they hear a price. In the 
end, they want the best sounding/best looking 
guitar for their money and in general if the price is 
more than a little higher than a laterally comparable product,
they will not want to buy. Marketing and endorsements 
can persuade people the guitar sounds the best. 
Another way to go is with fancy decoration.


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## ClintSearl (Dec 8, 2011)

If you want to make a living at fine woodworking, find another line of work.

Your work is beautifully executed, but you're playing to a niche market with a lot of similar looking pieces.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

I have no input on your question. I just want to say your work look marvelous.


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## huff (May 28, 2009)

Scott,
And it looks like you've already discovered that there are some projects that just cost to much to make and be able to sell it for a profit.

Every manufacturer has to deal with that (big or small), but it is very hard for the small shop to compete at times. With that being said, most woodworkers automatically think that they are too high priced on everything and they will not be able to sell their woodworking which is totally wrong. There are customers out there for every price range and it's up to us to find the right clientele for our work.

From what I've seen on your web-site, you build beautiful furniture and your prices look like they are in line with other fine crafted furniture. The problem you've probably run into is, shaker style furniture is available through so many mass manufacturers and their pricing is based more on quantity then quality.

Unfortunately, most customers don't readily see the difference either in the quality or the value you offer, so you have to find that customer or educate them.

You will also have to find your "bread and butter" items that will fit a broader base of customers; easier to sell and a good profit margin. Case goods may be something to look into. Not a production cabinet shop or anything like that, but maybe things like up-scale home offices or libraries. More and more people work from home and I always found a large customer base that had a wide range of pricing you could work with.

Again, it has a lot to do with your marketing and what you're willing to build.

Good luck


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## barringerfurniture (Sep 17, 2013)

Thanks for all the responses. Clint, try being a little more honest next time.

I know the style I build in is EVERYWHERE. I never set out to be original. But one thing I think I have going for me is the fact that I cannot find anyone else in the Sacramento region who does work like mine, as conventional as it is. There are a few "Shaker inspired" makers in the Bay area and one or two in the foothills that I've seen but their work seems to be farther removed from tradition than mine. Some of it appears to be "studio furniture" - more to be regarded as art than functional in my opinion.

Of course, there may be a good and obvious reason for that; Shaker furniture is an East Coast tradition and not so desirable in California. I've contemplated this and there is a possibility I may start a line of Mission style pieces as well because Sacramento (especially Midtown) is absolutely full of old Craftsman style houses and apartments with affluent homeowners who appreciate the style.

Thinking in the long term, I know I wouldn't be happy building breadboards or lamps or mirrors. I'm willing to accept that it will take longer to reach my goal, doing what I do but I firmly believe that in the long run, it will pay off both personally and financially.


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## Texcaster (Oct 26, 2013)

For me to prosper as a furniture maker/ cabinetmaker I have done both commercial work and furniture of my own design on spec. Commercial work to order always pays the best. In my case it has been period correct antiques and work for interior designers. The old maxim "... manufacturers aren't worried about making things, they worry about selling things " is very true. If you get busy enough to need help, hire a tradesman over someone you have to teach.

I'm retired now and have an elec. double bass/ setup business. It's beer money really, I sell 2-3 basses a year. I build acoustic instruments as a keen amateur and sell the odd one.


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## barringerfurniture (Sep 17, 2013)

By the way Clint, I see a lot of people making a living doing fine woodwork. Are you?

Like anything in life worth striving for, I think it's about hard work, perseverance and problem solving.

But that's just me.


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## Wildwood (Jul 22, 2012)

Besides your website where are you selling now?

Who is buying your products?

Have you thought about wholesale pricing?

Have you contacted local interior design & decorators in your area? You can go on the internet and get a feel what those in the industry are using and buying. Or call a few on the telephone to come look at your goods. 
That exercise will teach current trends for your area and what to make or lead to custom work.


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## JimRochester (Dec 24, 2013)

beautiful stuff. I am strictly a crafter so I am looking to make a profit but making a living is impossible for that. I just try to have the hobby pay for itself so when I drop $3K on a Sawstop I know the products will pay for it eventually.


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## BJODay (Jan 29, 2013)

Scott,
You do beautiful work.

BJ


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## Purrmaster (Sep 1, 2012)

Scott,

I wish you the best of luck selling your pieces. They are fantastic and I am very impressed.


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## Bieser (Oct 30, 2012)

- Scott I am in the same boat as you with pricing. I would love to make a living doing woodworking and have been doing some commissioned stuff off and on and selling a few things. I think you make wonderful furniture and will do well with hard work. Good luck.


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## barringerfurniture (Sep 17, 2013)

Thanks to everyone here offering their constructive, honest thoughts and opinions.

Kryptic, while I appreciate your honesty regarding my portfolio and while I did invite others here to view my website, that wasn't really the focus of the discussion here.

Additionally, I find your comment a bit rude and trust me, most people who see my work would not share your opinion. Where is your website? Where are your projects here on Lumberjocks?
What exactly is it that you do Kryptic?


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## mojapitt (Dec 31, 2011)

In my opinion, craft shows don't pay. Now before the craft show people start attacking me, one of the main reasons that they didn't work for me was me. Most of what I make (and want to continue making) does not fit the craft show crowd. I am better off with Home Shows.

Loren is also correct in saying that you have to be unique. You can't focus on being cheap. If you're competing with Walmart, you will lose.


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## barringerfurniture (Sep 17, 2013)

Sounds like you know a lot Kryptic. Thanks for the advice.


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## Mahdeew (Jul 24, 2013)

Keep the day job if you have to.. woodworkers now a days are like the painters in the past; thy might get recognized after they pass on.. Great work you do.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

I have a production background and find that formula are problematic until you have enough business for full time production. A better approach is to determine the market value of your product and work backwards-determine time and materials then decide if/how you can afford to produce and sell it. Whether you *should* produce and sell it is an entirely different question that should be answered first. If you want to be in this full time then establish relationships with decorators and architects, they can feed you business and guide you to what sells.


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## HowardInToronto (Sep 27, 2013)

Hello Scott -

Your output is gorgeous.

Your explanations are great. They're aimed at non-woodworkers. That's good. Because other woodworkers are not your clients.

Also, writing for woodworking mags? Don't bother. It won't help you accomplish your target. The only people reading your articles and reviews will be other woodworkers. Repeat after me - they're not your clients.

As for your output being original or derivative, right now that's academic. Your output seems well made and it's attractive.

Just start making sales. Keep refining your design sense. Keep adding technical skills. Soon enough you'll become confident about your pricing. And other artisans' pricing will be less of an issue.

This is an old, old cliché, but here goes - we buy from people we know, like and trust. This means most business is done via relationships. So start cultivating relationships.

Getting back to articles - contact your local newspaper's homes section editor. Offer them three or four ideas for articles that'll benefit their readership. And make these editor's lives easier by offering them material they can use right out of the box.

Examples might be - the 7 top things a consumer needs to know before ordering custom furniture - the top 3 things to know when considering furniture in a store. Be balanced and fair. But point out that for the right person, there are strengths in commissioning custom furniture.

You get the point.

Give versions of these away on your website too. In exchange for people's e-mail addresses. Stay in touch. Don't be afraid of following up in a professional and businesslike manner.

Remember - just because they're looking doesn't mean they're ready to buy right then. Just think back to the last time you bought something with lifestyle-changing overtones. You did your research. Then you circled back a few times. You validated your decision with logic but the emotions weren't too far in the background.

So stay in touch. Continue to offer them useful information. Become someone they get to know, like and trust. You'll increase the odds of them giving you an opportunity when they are ready.

My own research will be coming out soon.

One thing that keeps coming up is as old as the hills. Remember I said it'd be a good idea to cultivate relationships? Start contacting designers and architects. Ask them what they'd need from an artisan to consider being added to their roster. Then, if their needs are do-able, be scrupulous with your word about meeting their requirements.

There are plenty of woodworkers who've built substantial and enduring careers working with designers and architects. It's not the only way to run a business, it's just one way. But it's your business. So make sure your methods suit your personality and temperament.

Howard


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Scott - like the work, looked at your webpage, and pricing didn't seem high at all, except for your small dovetailed bookcase.

Understand a lot of time to make the top of the book case with the hand cut dovetails.

But to me a small bookcase would be less expensive than the hall table and coffee table, and more than your dovetailed display shelf.

I look to what people can buy such pieces for already - look at Ethan Allen and high end production furniture, then look to what you are doing is better, or about equal to these, and how to sell it.

Because you need to convince folks that you offer something unique, that they should WAIT for you to build, versus having it delivered Thursday!

Ikea is not the benchmark, there are certainly many high end furniture galleries in sacramento, where the riches already buy their stuff.

Go there, and see what they are paying today, and then consider your position. Remember, they have more overhead, a professional sales force and a showroom to keep warm in the winter and AC all summer etc. But while your work is nice, your name isn't a known niche yet, like a Maloof, so you will have to compete against the instant delivery versus you providing custom solutions - because the actual home owner doesn't really know what is possible to voice what they want.

Get together with some of the interior designers, and show them your portfolio. The true riches never shop themselves, they hire a decorator/designer - who would commission your work on behalf of their client.

you don't really knock on Clint Eastwoods door and say "interested in a new coffee table"


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## freddy1962 (Feb 27, 2014)

Scott, Excellent work and website. Don't listen to any negative or discouraging comments. Howardintoronto & drdirt nailed it, along with many others here. Building relationships, getting your name out there and an excellent product = sales. Have products for sale in all price ranges to cover the total market. Do something very elaborate, over the top and get some press. Have a " groundbreaking business" story done about you and your work. Another thing you might do is donate a piece to a good cause. Have the business promote a raffle, you do a meet and greet and get some press. Do it annually. Get your name out there. Go gettum!


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## mojapitt (Dec 31, 2011)

I agree also that smaller items are tough to make a living at. Nice jewelry boxes can take more hours than people realize. I can build furniture pieces with the same amount of time. Much easier to get people to spend on a dresser what they won't spend on a nice jewelry box.


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## GaryW (Aug 28, 2011)

Cost of material, plus 50 percent. It's a hobby, not a living !


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## barringerfurniture (Sep 17, 2013)

Though I appreciate the feedback regarding my website, I think this thread got a bit off topic. More interested in other people's pricing strategies, ways of calculating prices, etc.

Honest critique is fine but again, please see my original post. A few negative comments on here have left a bad taste in my mouth but maybe that was the intention.

I also felt an urge to clarify that when I said I'm "still making ends meet by other means", Those "other means" are being a professional finish carpenter with a solid 15 year resume. I'm booked with work for the foreseeable future and though it may not be fine furniture, much of my work in that regard is performed at home, in my shop where I operate as Barringer Woodworks. I haven't had a boss in a long time now.

Not trying to brag. It's just to say that the furniture is really just an extension of what I've done to make a living for 15 years now. It's not like I've suddenly decided to quit my office job to go join a circus.


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## Finn (May 26, 2010)

As Rick M says "A better approach is to determine the market value of your product and work backwards-determine time and materials then decide if/how you can afford to produce and sell it." I agree!


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## barringerfurniture (Sep 17, 2013)

Gary, "cost of material, plus 50 percent". Yes, I'd agree that is a hobby.


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## FellingStudio (Oct 17, 2013)

"... take everything into account in terms of setting aside taxes and retirement, waste, tool maintenance, transportation expenses and everything else I can think of."

It seems to me that you've got the basic formula for figuring out your costs down already. Add up your overhead, materials, labor, and you have the cost (to you) of a piece. Now, add profit if you want the business to be profitable, and you have the price of a piece.

Your prices do not seem unreasonable to me.

Much of the discussion on this thread has been focused on the sales and marketing aspect of the business, with folks throwing out ideas on how to get your work seen by potential buyers. I suspect that is because you have reasonable prices … if anything, your prices will have to go up if you start working with a middle man of any sort (gallery, interior decorator). That is because you will then have marketing costs that must be rolled into the price of a piece. And, I've said this before, I'll say it again, the commission that you pay to a decorator or a gallery is worth it if they can bring you business. Shows are another marketing method, and they might also generate some direct sales, but they also have costs (entry fee, travel too/from, your time sitting there) that have to be accounted for too.

But, back to the question … I add up overhead, material, and labor for a subtotal, tack on what I think a reasonable profit is, for a second subtotal. If I'm happy (gut feel) with the price, that's it, if I think that it might be high or low, then I might do some quick comparison shopping online and adjust according to where I might have spent too much time on a particular aspect of a piece. If I spent too much time on a new process or technique, or if I reworked a design multiple times, then I seem to feel a duty to discount some of my labor.


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## mojapitt (Dec 31, 2011)

Since LJ "Huff" did his blogs on proper pricing and advertising your business, I have changed my way of doing both dramatically. I recommend that you read both repeatedly. Pricing should not be a guess. Also you need to watch for hidden expenses.


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## Puzzleman (May 4, 2010)

I use a formula similar to what Huff has in his post. I determine my my hourly shop rate (cost of running the shop including office people but not including materials, labor and shipping). Add that number to hourly rate of pay. I add 10% to that for a total hourly labor charge. I add 20% to the cost of the materials. Shipping is a separate charge that is paid by the customer and I mark that up by 10%. Track all of your hours doing the work. I keep clipboards by each station to track the time.

What the numbers come up to is the minimum that I charge. Most of my items go for more, a few go for a lot more. Bottom line is to not go below the minimum ever. Never go below the minimum. Otherwise you will lose money and we can do that sitting on the couch drinking a beer. So never go below your minimum.


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## DanKrager (Apr 13, 2012)

Early in my woodworking career, I developed a database of activities used to build pieces and then started to keep track of how long each activity took. Later I learned it's called ABC or Activity Based Costing. At first it was very awkward and pretty clumsy, but as I streamlined it over time and as the database was populated with years of data, I began to realize efficiencies. I could price any object very quickly with objective counts of activities and the result has become surprisingly accurate. The algorithms take into account direct and indirect skill levels used, fixed and variable overhead, materials, and waste, etc. Yup, I was an IT person for many years, too. 
This was not a trivial undertaking and required a huge investment as I educated myself and refined the process. It hasn't made me a better or more competitive woodworker, but I can be confident that my price is fair for me, and thus good for my customer. If I'm dealing with more money than brains, there is the opportunity to push the price to what I think the market will bear, giving me extra margin to educate the customer and spend the extra time they require holding hands, making changes, etc. 
I know this is going to generate requests to share the "system", and I'll happily do that with the caveat that the chances of making it work for you may be slim and none. It's data driven, and as such requires a pretty good understanding of databases and spreadsheets and how they work together. I use OpenOffice 3 on an old computer and the Base module is notoriously flaky. Would love to be able to figure out how to build the entire system in Oracle 10g Express. 
DanK


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

Dan, we did that at a place I worked in the early 90's. We would record time vs output of various tasks and then subtract a percentage to account for fatigue.


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## barringerfurniture (Sep 17, 2013)

Thanks to all of you for your contributions here. FellingStudio and Puzzleman, thanks as ever for your insights - always beneficial! Going to read these responses more thoroughly this evening.

Got some custom picnic tables/benches to build. You won't see them on my website but in the meantime, it's a living!


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## Texcaster (Oct 26, 2013)

Just to clarify my work for interior designers, the antique trade and architects. They are not interested in being agents for my personal work. They want THEIR designs made to a high standard. I don't have to second guess a mark up. My work costs what it always costs.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Bill - agree - but if you are trying to cater to the rich folks… you are sort of stuck, at least when starting out, but going through the designers. The rich folks aren't going to generally look you up, they hire a designer, to "create a dramatic living space" with a soup to nuts approach including drapes, blinds, persian rugs, and upholstered couches.

As a woodworker, we can't really get to those folks really cutting the checks to sell individual pieces. But you have to impress those agents, so that the Riches… will tell their friends at a little cocktail party how:
"pierre, my designer stumbled upon this really quaint craftsman working in a 1 man shop turning out one of a kind pieces… isn't this XYZ piece just simply Faaabbulous!!"

Dan - I think that using ABC works, but only if you are busy/booked.

If you are only looking at the cost of when you are working, and not countind the idle time that you have to keep the lights on and food on the table - the formula and business can really struggle.

That of course doesn't mean folks will pay you 5 grand for a pair of trivets, just because it is the only business you got that month- but you have to capture all the hours for which you are cutting checks vs money coming in.


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## MalcolmLaurel (Dec 15, 2013)

Texcaster, DrDirt… how do/did you hook up with those interior designers? I'm struggling with how to market my lamps, they're unique (or maybe I should say "weird") enough that nobody's looking for them because nobody knows they exist. Etsy certainly isn't doing it! But if I could get a thing going with a few ID's specializing in rustic decor, that might be all I need.

To bring it back to the original subject, all the pricing formulas don't work for me, because I might have $20 worth of materials (electrical components and shellac, the wood is free) in a lamp selling for $300.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I don't know why WW would not be the same as any other estimating/ pricing. I used a simple spread sheet I developed with the basic labor units for each operation of electrical jobs for years. It was remarkably accurate. I could spend 10% of the time using it or hours counting every little part. The results would be nearly identical. And, my prices were usually where I expected them to be in the market. An experienced WW could make a labor unit for each operation and include materials and expendables associated. With that cost basis, apply a labor rate, overhead and profit.

I will say the attitude I had all my self employment career was if I could not provide myself better pay and at least the same benefits as a real job, I should go get one. I have thought about starting a WW business, but I'm not a good enough sales and business person. I was fortunate enough to have them beating down the door; nearly recession proof for many years. I believe the first step in the process is to make a very critical inventory of your strengths and weaknesses. If you are not into self promotion and get caught in the game of price being the primary consideration, it will be very difficult.

Finding that little niche like puzzleman has is the key. I had a niche. That applies all small bushiness, whether it be unique product, superior service, or anything most others have difficulty providing.


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## SWCPres (Mar 19, 2014)

I like your pricing. Looks fair and honest. I would say set your standards for pricing and draw your base. Also, look into high end real estate agents to showcase some of your works to help them sell the house and maybe put your name out there and get some sales. Interior designers will help alot, but they can be demanding. I said I am a hobbyist, but I have done some custom pieces for an interior designer. I felt like I lost my creative portion of the process to the designer's. It was only one experience, but I guess it made me slightly jaded. Wineries and higher end Breweries are another place to market your pieces. A friend of mine makes custom wine racks for a local Winery. Day Spas and such are another good place to market a decorative piece. The idea is similar to most art gallery concepts. You can lend them a piece with a small placard to describe the piece. Your work is not furniture the way it is produced in factories no more than prints at IKEA or other such places are art. Personally, I figure out my material cost, estimate my time and decide what my time is worth, but I don't do it for a living so take it with a grain of salt. As for the idea of a niche, I don't think it's necessary. I don't assume no one else can replicate what I have made and undercut me. What I do think is necessary is your name and brand. The difference between "Popular Expensive furniture maker" and "no name, same skill" is who looked at their furniture and who owned it.


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## Mahdeew (Jul 24, 2013)

There has been a lot of good input here so far and the only thing that I can contribute to is relates to production. If you make 5 or 6 things and can reproduce them based on plans and tool settings, that is one thing; but if you are going to create different things based on your vision and inspirations, that to me is a bit different. It would be hard to mass-produce your thoughts and inspirations as they come to you compared to mass produce one or 5 inspirations on an assembly line. So, the concept is, are you planning to mass produce a few concepts or be recognized for your visions.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

in a major high end metropolitan like the OP for Sacramento, you just google "top interior designers in sacremento"

I kicks out a list of ~300 designers. THat is where I would start.

http://www.houzz.com/professionals/interior-designer/sacramento


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## Puzzleman (May 4, 2010)

I agree with mrjinx007. Production is where you can make money. Standardize as many components as possible. Don't reinvent the wheel with each job.

I do personalized work. Each item is different because of the personalization. However, each of the products is the same. That's where I can make the chips fly as I am doing the same thing over and over. My shop layout is designed to do what I do and nothing else. Each step leads to the next step without moving the product somewhere else. Streamlining the processes helps keep the costs down.

When creating a new product, one important thing that I take into account is product flow. How will it fit into my current setup? How does it move from station to station? Can I use the same tools I currently have on it or do I need something specific? Can I use my current parts with it? How does the cutting of it fit in with the cutting of my other products?

These are some of what goes on inside my head when working. I am also always looking for ways to improve and speed up the work processes. Every little cent that I can save goes to the bottom line.


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## barringerfurniture (Sep 17, 2013)

Monte, thanks for the reference to Huff. Gonna check it out now.

The guesswork is exactly what I'm trying to avoid presently. I've put a lot of effort and thought into my pricing at this point, taking into account everything I can think of on my end while looking closely at what other successful makers who appear to be doing really good business, are charging.

I've developed my own formulas for pricing based on labor involved in any given aspect of the work. i.e. breadboard ends on table tops (optional) have a price, drawers (also optional) have a price, as do tapered legs, etc. And I charge by the square foot for table tops because mine are hand planed so I need some consistent way to calculate labor cost there.

Of course I'm also figuring materials as closely as possible and adding a mark-up to cover my efforts in obtaining them; fuel costs and labor involved in selecting lumber, as well as inevitable waste.

The problem, mentioned by someone earlier I believe, with formulas is that they don't work well with certain items - smaller ones in particular that still require a ton of work but could never demand a price to cover it. My miniature dovetailed chests for instance, have just about as much labor in them as a two-drawer coffee table after factoring in all the mortising for that expensive-ass hardware and everything. But the prices would be over the top if I simply priced them based on my "formulas".

So, after considering all this, my prices seem to be consistent on average with much of what I see out there. It's expensive for sure. I could never afford to buy one of my coffee tables. But at least it's justifiable now. I have a system I can point to that accurately accounts for the expense (convincing others that the expense is worthwhile for them, is a different topic).

And these prices allow me to set aside what I need to for taxes, retirement, etc, while leaving me with a living wage.


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## barringerfurniture (Sep 17, 2013)

Puzzleman thanks. I've done a lot of work in that regard too. The three tables I currently offer are all consistent in style but more importantly, many of the parts are interchangeable and all the milled joinery like mortise/tenons, grooves for drawer bottoms, etc. are the same, eliminating almost all router table setup time.

Some other things that could be dialed in tighter of course but it's getting there.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

Set your prices anyway you like. You should get what 
a plumber gets in a just world. The question is whether
you can locate customers who will buy a specific, 
style at those prices.

I have never met a customer who was fascinated by
joinery. Only other woodworkers. Some people
want dovetailed cabinet drawers because they have 
heard they are "the best" and they have a lot of
money.

Unfortunately, expensive fine furniture is a commodity for 
which there is more supply than demand. The most
seductive design and execution wins out. Seduction 
often involves curves.


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## barringerfurniture (Sep 17, 2013)

Loren, that's so true I believe as well. when I first started building furniture all I could think about was the dovetails, pinned mortise/tenons, etc. Took me a long time to realize that non-woodworkers generally look right past that stuff.

I think what they see first is the price, then the overall design/shape of the piece, then the wood color, then grain pattern, then the finish. In that order. Just a guess though. Hard to be objective sometimes when you're so involved.

Good point about curves. My stuff doesn't have much of those.

Funny thing about those curves too - was doing a lot of thinking about my logo design and realized it's very masculine - made to resemble a construction blueprint. It dawned on me recently that the true decision makers in most houses I've worked in as a carpenter are always the wives. They're the ones who want nice things too.

Maybe I should change the logo.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

I've taken a rather prolonged beating in selling woodworking. 
I would rather warn people of the pitfalls. It's a very tricky
skill to learn to a level where you can make good money at
it. Specialization is important. If you do cabinets (which are
kind of easy to build) you'll need some willingness to engage in
buying big equipment and dealing with employees. If you 
want to do fine furniture, you'll need killer skills in several
subdisciplines of woodworking. I'm 42 years old and I am
getting there… I do not really recommend it (nor do I,
as a flamenco guitarist, recommend the guitar lightly)... because
it is likely to be a silly amount of struggle with a remote
possibility of good pay-off when you're middle aged and
beyond. I tell kids to study computer science.

Woodworking is interesting to some of us. To some, figuring
out how to build the really challenging stuff is a compulsion.
At the upper end of the market, that dedication can
be rewarded, because people with loads of money 
don't mind paying for near-perfection, but the work 
still has to be seriously cool enough to merit a place
in the home. This may involve the discarding of another,
also somewhat nice piece. This factor alone, like
asking consumers to change the brand of tennis
shoes they wear, can be a roadblock to the sale.

... then there's commercial work and store fixtures, etc…
stuff you need CNC and a 3mm edgebander for these
days.

My advice is ultimately to price the work like you're
all that and have the skills and samples to make
people believe you can execute their dreams. The
lower half to 3/4s of the market is well-served by
big operations you'll never be able to compete with
as a hands-on woodworker.


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## camps764 (Dec 9, 2011)

This is a good question and interesting thread…honestly I haven't read it all yet, so I appologize if I'm duplicating.

Once upon a time someone recommended getting in good with Real estate agents and interior decorators as a way to push business to you.


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## JGM0658 (Aug 16, 2011)

I have never met a customer who was fascinated by
joinery.

LOL, exactly! People do not care whether you use dovetails, M&T, etc or nails and screws all that they care is that it is "pretty".

The problem I see Scott is that you are competing in an already crowded field. Lots of people doing A&C and Shaker furniture. If I were you instead of worrying about pricing I would worry about making fresh new designs that set you apart from the crowd. But I believe Loren already stated this.


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## FellingStudio (Oct 17, 2013)

Let's talk about those miniature dovetailed chests for a minute …

First, is there any demand for them? Are people asking about them, only to be turned off by price? If so, you may find it to be a good idea to think about how you can streamline your processes in order to bring down the cost of the piece. (Probably through batching and power tool jigs.) On the other hand, if you rarely or never get any interest in the piece, you may want to discontinue making it.

If you are trying to fill out a product line with a lower cost piece, you may need to go back to the drawing board. And, it is also true that if you think that the piece has potential even though you don't get a lot of inquiries, it might still be worth figuring out how to streamline production of the piece due to the "if I can shave $100 off the cost, then this could be a big seller at shows" factor.

I do think that it is important to have a number of low to intermediate priced pieces in your product line for a couple of reasons … (1) not everyone can afford to spend thousands of dollars on "fancy" furniture but folks still want nice, handmade things, and (2) even wealthier folks have an "impulse buy" price point. So, the smaller stuff can support your presence at shows (and with galleries and other representatives too) hopefully generating some bigger commissions.


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## JGM0658 (Aug 16, 2011)

Wow, Jesse, awesome work!


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## barringerfurniture (Sep 17, 2013)

Jorge, thanks for the input. I agree with Loren also and have come to that same conclusion myself, though it took awhile to realize that (see my previous response to him).

As for the style I work in being a crowded market, I realize that also. For the time being, it's what I do and do well so I'm making the most of it but constantly learning and keeping an open mind.

As I mentioned earlier though, I can't find anyone else in my region who does what I do specifically and who is making a serious go of it. For me, where I live and work, it seems the way to set myself apart from others is to maintain restraint and traditionalism. In other words, EVERYBODY'S trying to "set themselves apart" by slightly modifying or enhancing their designs which are really just based on very traditional concepts.

FellingStudio thanks. Yes, those little chests are a nightmare and I've figured that out the hard way. I'm glad I made them because I think they look nice in my portfolio - They make pretty pictures. but they're completely unprofitable and unsaleable as far as I can figure, especially with all that hardware and labor involved there. Not sure if there's a demand for them but pretty sure I'm not ever building them again.

To paraphrase what you said though, keeping them around may be beneficial in terms of drawing the eye to larger, more profitable inventory.


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## TheWoodenOyster (Feb 6, 2013)

Scott,

Great thread. I love it when this comes up. No doubt fine woodworking is a very tough way to make a living, and I think that one must be TOTALLY IN LOVE with it and maybe have some extra income to really make it work. There is a slim chance for your stuff to get wildly popular and you become rich, but that is very doubtful. I like it a lot, but have realized that I don't think I want to put myself through the hardships of trying to make it as just a fine woodworker. As Loren said above, it is really a tough way to make a living and for most people, even people who love woodworking, it isn't necessarily the way to go for the rest of your life. Sounds like you have decided to try it and I applaud you for that. I also think it is good that you have some secondary income options that can back you up. I sort of view my woodworking as a secondary income that also happens to be my hobby. All that said, kudos to you for going for it and I wish you the best.

Now, about pricing. Huff did a great blog series on this that helped me a ton. Someone else may have referenced it above, but if not, check it out. When I price things, I really go thru the process in my head and try to plan for the whole project and all that will happen. It sounds like you are doing this and coming up with prices that are just higher than you feel they ought to be. If you have thought it out and can add, then they probably need to stay where they are. I am doing a project right now for some family and I gave them a killer deal on it. It is taking much longer than anticipated, but because it is for family, I am not really too worried about it. I view it more as a gift with a bonus repayment than a commission. BUT, if it were a commission I would be pissed. I lowered the price and was unrealistically optimistic and now I am reaping what I sowed. In this situation, it doesn't really matter, but for you that kind of thing would kill you. So, keep your prices where there are and keep chugging. And keep marketing.

I wish you luck in this rough line of work. It is hard to keep your head up when there are often comments about how impossible it is to stay afloat. I hope it works out for you, and one piece of advice that I would give is to try to keep some side jobs going. That will really take a lot of pressure off and allow you to feel a little more comfortable with your situation. That is what I am doing right now before I head back to college this summer and having some extra side jobs is very comforting.


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## TheWoodenOyster (Feb 6, 2013)

Oh and by the way, I have also found that there are certain pieces and processes that make no sense economically for us to make or do in our shops. Some things are better left to plywood, biscuits, pocket holes, and edge banding. And that is ok. Don't try to force inefficient projects and processes into your shop, or if you do, just put the price of the new tools or jigs needed into the price. I do this on almost every project I make.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

I believe, and it is often an unpopular opinion, that most products have both intrinsic and market values. The intrinsic value being the quality of materials and skill of labor, the market value being it's perceived value by the public. I'll give 2 examples: A neighbor of mine makes exquisite, segmented turnings and commonly has 100 or more hours labor just in construction plus however much time in design for each. He is extremely picky about lumber selection. The edge joints align perfectly. But he can't sell them for anything approaching their intrinsic value. He's tried art galleries in different states, bazaars, you name it but they only sell for several hundreds of dollars. Because he has no name recognition, no one knows who he is or how he works. The market value is far below the intrinsic value. He's retired and does it for love, not money, but I'm sure he feels slighted. There is another woodworker who makes fine furniture, most of you would recognize his name because he's written for magazines, written books, and runs a school. His furniture is among the best craftsmanship I've ever seen with attention to details I would never have considered, beyond obsessive compulsive. But he writes the books and runs the school because the woodworking provided only a modest lifestyle, sometimes he told me, didn't even pay the utilities. The lesson for me is that producing exceptional works is really something you do for yourself, not for fame or fortune. Like someone mentioned earlier, the public doesn't care about dovetails other than they've been told they are desirable in drawers. They might ooh and aah but it doesn't always translate to cash on the table.


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## mojapitt (Dec 31, 2011)

I like to have a couple "lesser" items in the booth. My theory is that I want everyone to leave money when they go.


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## Puzzleman (May 4, 2010)

Monte, That is so true. I have price points ranging from $5.00 up to over $250.00. The whole point is for everybody to leave a little money with me. As I tell my customers, I don't care which thing you buy, I want you to buy something. I like making things so the more you buy, the more I get to make things.


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## huff (May 28, 2009)

* I like making things so the more you buy, the more I get to make things.*

I like that one Jim.


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