# I hate sanding between finish coats



## jimbarstow (Jun 1, 2013)

I typically sand with 400 grit between finish coats but it is a long, boring process that I hate. (My favorite finish these days is minwax wipe-on poly diluted with a little mineral spirits and with a dash of tung oil added.) Does anyone have a magic finish recipe that provides a satin (NOT glossy) finish that doesn't require the hours of sanding? Should I try using an HVLP spray? I've been doing this for 30 years but surely there is some new finishing technology that provides a perfectly smooth finish sanding free.

Sanding the Greene and Greene crib I'm making takes hours between coats


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

Dunno. I'd say you're sanding too much at too fine a grit.

I sand between varnish coats at 220 or 320 using stearated 
paper. It goes pretty quick. If you want a perfect finish at 
the end, let it cure, then level and polish with rottenstone
or whatever you prefer.


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## firefighterontheside (Apr 26, 2013)

I concur. I don't own any 400 grit. I use 220 at the most between coats of minwax oil based poly. I have read about using the 5000 grit buffing pads for final finish. I think that was it. I want to try that. As far as the hvlp goes, I love mine. Earlex 5500. You can lay down a real nice finish in just 2 coats. You just have to get the viscosity right and the right tip. The learning curve is pretty short though.


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## NiteWalker (May 7, 2011)

I use 320 between coats and it goes fast. I spray my finishes with a turbine hvlp.
I typically spray two light coats, light sanding with 320, spray two more, done.

Regarding a "magic recipe" for satin, just plain satin poly. I prefer waterbornes for their quick drying times and low voc. Why the tung oil with the poly?


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## kdc68 (Mar 2, 2012)

Who really likes sanding ?.....But with finish sanding, you are rounding third base and are about to reach home base. To me, knowing I'm at that stage of the project is enough incentive to get it finished (pun intended).

Here's an article from Popular Woodworking by Bob Flexner that's bound to stir up a little controversy.
http://www.popularwoodworking.com/article/The_7_Myths_of_Polyurethane


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## Earlextech (Jan 13, 2011)

You only need to sand if you have rough spots (raised grain). If you raise your grain before the first sanding, using water, you should only have to sand again after the first coat. Possibly after the second coat should any grain raise occur.
Nobody loves sanding.
Keep in mind the first thing that happens when someone approaches a peice you just built. They reach out and touch it. That right there is why we sand.


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## ClintSearl (Dec 8, 2011)

Sanding between coats is unnecessary.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Many top coat's instructions include sanding between coats but this should be a light scuffing of the surface for adhesion purposes not hours of sanding, if your finish is so rough that you need to sand that long ,then you have a problem with how your applying it or with the finish or both.


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## rrww (Aug 12, 2012)

I usually do a fast scuff with 320 works great - even complicated finishing projects go fast this way.


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## Finisherman (May 3, 2013)

If you have the ability to spray, then I'd switch to shellac, lacquer or waterborne finishes. These are easier to spray and much easier to sand. Clint's right, at least in the case of shellac and lacquer. These finishes burn in and you don't have to scuff sand between coats. If you do, though, you'll produce a much better finish. Varnish is infamous for collecting dust. If you switch to a faster drying finish, you'll eliminate a lot of these problems.


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

There area several reasons to sand between coats, but there is only one I'm careful to follow: scuff sanding is needed for any urethane products, since the urethane (or polyurethane) resins inhibit adhesion. All the others others are optional (at least between every coat). I'll usually knock down dust nibs about every 2nd coat, I sand grain raised whiskers off (with water borne finishes) after the first coat, then only finish sand after the last one. If I want a satin finish, i make the last coat one from a can of satin finish (the preceding ones are gloss). Except for shellac, if it's the finish you have to work the sheen you want with an abrasive.


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## firefighterontheside (Apr 26, 2013)

What us a good readily available clear lacquer? I can go to Lowes, HD, and Sherwin Williams. I do have a turbine hvlp.


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## MT_Stringer (Jul 21, 2009)

I usually spray Deft Clear finish and sand lightly before the last coat.


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

I've bought SW lacquer before and really like it. I think it's considered a "pro" item, since it's hidden in the back. I also like the Watco product, but I can only get it at Menard's…not sure they are down in your neck of the woods yet. Both of them were about $20/gallon the last time I bought some.


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## pintodeluxe (Sep 12, 2010)

When spraying lacquer I sand between coats with a 1000-1500 grit sanding sponge. It takes 15-20 minutes to scuff the finish smooth on a medium sized case good or table. I say use the finest grit that will get the job done. Once you switch to spraying, your off-the-gun finish will be smooth already. You just need to remove any dust nibs or overspray that may be present.

I use a two coat + wax finish. After the first coat of lacquer, I sand with the fine sponges. After the second coat of lacquer cures, I wax with #0000 steel wool. It leaves a nice satin finish.

Good luck!


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## firefighterontheside (Apr 26, 2013)

I'll look at menards. They have opened 2 stores in the vicinity and will open another this fall. Thanks, I'll try it.


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## ClintSearl (Dec 8, 2011)

If recoating poly finishes is done in a timely manner, overcoats will lock in chemically with the undercoat. Waiting too long between coats will let the undercoat polymerize to he point that it will resist adhesion with a following coat. That's why sanding is needed to create a (crappy) mechanical bond.

Any kind of sanding between coats of one-part solvent lacquer just doesn't make sense. If a coat of lacquer doesn't level and smooth naturally, it means either the gun is junk or the operator doesn't know what he's doing or both.


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## rrww (Aug 12, 2012)

It get the Watco from menards its good stuff for the price. $30 a gallon.


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## Planeman40 (Nov 3, 2010)

Here is my way of finishing that doesn't take too much effort and gives a nice finish.

1. Apply 2 coats varnish/lacquer/shellac and let dry THOROUGHLY (like overnight or more). This first coat soaks into the surface of the wood so it takes longer to dry. I prefer shellac as the first coat as it dries quickly and seems to penetrate a little deeper than the others. Shellac also sands beautifully and doesn't gum up the sand paper. It is alcohol-based so non-alcohol based finishes like Varnish and lacquer can go over it without any problems.

2. When the first coat is absolutely dry, scrape it with a single-edge razor blade instead of sanding. watch the wood surface in a light so you can see the "gloss". Scrape until there is no gloss if you can. Sometimes there are dips in the surface that you will have to sand or steel wool as scraping would cut too deeply.

3. When you are finished scraping, apply two or three coats of the final finish. Let dry thoroughly. Don't bother to sand between coats.

4. Scrape again with the razor blade. Scrape until there are no glossy areas. The object is to scrape off the high areas and fill in the low areas with finish. Add more finish if you desire a glass smooth final finish and scrape between coats until all of the little low areas are filled and level.

5. Wet sand with 600 grit "wet or dry" sandpaper (the black stuff), buff with auto rubbing compound or rottenstone, and, if you want give it a final coat of Johnson's Paste Wax. This will give you a nice gloss finish. With some extra rubbing and effort you can raise this to a glass-like finish.

Note regarding shellac: Great stuff. Negatives: dries so quick that it doesn't "flow out" like a slow drying finish does, is somewhat expensive, doesn't have a long shelf life (make it up a little at a time from dried shellac flakes to overcome this), being alcohol-based, is subject to damage by alcoholic drinks and will easily leave milky white marks if water is left standing. Positives: makes an outstanding first undercoat as it dries fast and "chalks" when sanded instead of gumming the sand paper, easily gives a glass-like shiny finish with multiple coats. Shellac is the standard finish used by the old furniture makers.

Planeman


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## Pono (Mar 10, 2012)

I do 2 coats laquer then sand with 1500 then spray final coat.It takes me minutes to do sanding by hand dont have to sand hard sand just light to get bumps out.


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## stefang (Apr 9, 2009)

Maybe you are sanding too much between coats if you find it slow and boring. I find that sanding between coats is pretty close to the same effort of wiping the project off with a rag. It is mainly just to knock off any nibs and hairs and slightly keying the surface for the next coat. Easy peasy and very quick. I usually use 220 too.


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## renners (Apr 9, 2010)

I think you should consider switching to lacquer and spray application - a professional grade lacquer like Becker Acroma comes in different sheen levels and is quick, easy and forgiving to apply. Shoot a coat on, let it dry, shoot another, then light sand with stearated paper and top coat, done.


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## firefighterontheside (Apr 26, 2013)

Never used lacquer before. What affect does lacquer have on bare wood? Does it behave like oil based poly in that it gives it the wet look and ambers? Or does it dry like water based and not change the colors? I may switch to spraying lacquer too if it is better with spraying and sanding.


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## ClintSearl (Dec 8, 2011)

There sure is a lot of misinformation in this thread. Caveat emptor


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## Pono (Mar 10, 2012)

I havent noticed that much of a ambering in using lacquer you can also tint it if you want.I find it far easier then poly and faster to each his own.But I am still sanding in between coats so my gun is obviously crap and I dont know what I am doing hahaha.Last I checked no way to avoid sanding for final coat unless you are perfect miracle workers like others on this site.


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## firefighterontheside (Apr 26, 2013)

OK, thanks. That works for me.


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## Jim Jakosh (Nov 24, 2009)

Unless I'm using lacquer, which bites into the previous coat without sanding, I always wet sand with 400 waterproof paper just to scuff the surface- like A1Jim said . If your previous coat is too rough with orange peel and did not level properly, I would sand more with 220/320 and water until it was flat. If you finish over orange peel it will just continue looking that bad.

Usually 2 coats of poly will look pretty good. Remember to always blow off the surface before staining or just finishing. There is a lot of dust in the pores- especially oak!! That will make a first coat rough as sandpaper.

One thing I do with Poly is always add a wee bit of naphtha because it makes it dry quicker and level better.
cheers, Jim


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## jumbojack (Mar 20, 2011)

One word one finish. LACQUER. Go no further. Easy application, I spray with a cheap little gun called a Critter. Depending on the grain of the material, I spray 2 to 8 coats. Closed grain stuff gets fewer coats. Somewhere near the last coat I'll knock down the bumps with 300, 320 or 400 even 600 what ever comes out of the drawer first. You can feel when to stop with the sanding hand and the off hand. It will feel smooth as glass. Depending on your preference choose satin, or gloss. I usually use satin but even it can be brought to a glossy finish. My final coat is Johnson paste wax. Again you can rub the heck out of one or two applications to get a glossy finish although it will not get much glossier than your final coat of lacquer.
Lacquer is a tough repairable finish that is nearly impossible to screw up looks great and does not affect the color of the material much.
The added feature of Lacquer is the smell. I LOVE THE SMELL OF LACQUER.
Oh wear a respirator, the voc in this stuff has got to be terrible for you; for the reason stated above.


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## Pono (Mar 10, 2012)

haha jumboajack thats hilarious I have a friend that stands in the exhaust fan and breathes it in.of course hes not all there


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## tefinn (Sep 23, 2011)

Clint - Maybe you could be more specific as to what constitutes misinformation in this thread. I haven't read anything yet that is "wrong". Some finishing methods and/or finishes may be better than others. Some are even more unothodox than others. However, if the end product comes out the way the craftsman wants, isn't that all that matters? I also completely agree that you don't need to sand between poly applications if you reapply soon enough.


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

I don't see any misinformation either, only a variety of opinions.


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## NiteWalker (May 7, 2011)

The problem isn't misinformation; the problem is that some individuals are very set in their ways (stubborn) and refuse to accept the common knowledge that there's more than one way to do things. Granted, some ways are easier than others, but they're mostly after the same goal.


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## renners (Apr 9, 2010)

Another advantage of lacquer is the quick drying time, I usually recoat after about 40 minutes.


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## gfadvm (Jan 13, 2011)

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/article/The_7_Myths_of_Polyurethane

This link is pretty informative and does dispel some common myths about poly.


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## jimbarstow (Jun 1, 2013)

I've decided that it is time to spray on my finishes. (It's also that my next project is a bunch of cabinets along one wall of my garage; I can't imagine using a wipe or brushing finish for all of them.) After looking at reviews and deciding I wanted the option of spraying almost anything, I just ordered a fuji q4 gold. Although I don't think I'll ever be spraying paint, I could see my kids needing to do that at some point and the q4 seemed better for that.

Any advice on exercises/tests to do before actually spraying anything important?


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## jmaichel (May 22, 2010)

I use Festool Platin Abrassive pads in between coats. I use S1000 in between and then an S2000 for final polishing. I average about 10-15 minutes between coats and have been very very happy with final outcome. I have sparying Minwax Polycrylic, a water based finish with an LVLP spray gun.


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## firefighterontheside (Apr 26, 2013)

Earlex had some great youtube videos that I watched before I used my earlex for the first time. You could watch those or look for some by Fuji. Videos on different finishes. How to clean the equipment is very important for the life of the gun. Make sure that you have ample supply of whatever solvent your finish is based on. You will need lots of it for cleaning. That is one real good reason to used water based finishes. Mineral spirits are expensive. My problem is that I prefer oil based polyurethane.

Also the earlex came with a dvd about most facets of its use. Perhaps the Fuji will also.


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## renners (Apr 9, 2010)

You won't be disappointed with the Fuji, it's a top piece of kit.
Some advice, read the booklet, there's a trouble shooting section in it that deals with common problems, orange peel, gritty finish etc,. When you're setting up, have some scrap at hand to set the flow and fan width. When you're spraying, make sure you get enough on - spray as wet as you can without getting runs, and then don't sand it all off prior to the final coat. Stand doors, tops and shelves up vertically for spraying, that way any overspray or dust won't settle on them during drying. If you can, place the turbine outside to keep the filters clean.
I've got a Fuji XT gun and occasionally the pressure nipple on top of the lid blocks up - check that it's clear before you start spraying because if it's blocked, nothing will come out. Look up videos on youtube about spraying to get a feel for how fast to move the gun, do the edges first, knock off knife edges with a light sand so the finish has something to stick to.


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## NiteWalker (May 7, 2011)

The fuji units are great (I have the minimite 4) but the Q and super series build up heat much faster than the mini mites because of their design. Just be watchful on hot days.


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## kaerlighedsbamsen (Sep 16, 2013)

Have you looked into this?: http://www.woodshopnews.com/columns-blogs/finishing/498776-soap-can-be-a-surprisingly-good-furniture-finish


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