# Internal staircase project, definitely a daunting challenge. Help required



## anthm27 (May 12, 2015)

My friend is currently building an A-Frame style timber framed house in Japan.
I will be visiting and onsite for a week next month, he,s eluded to me taking on the *internal staircase project.*

I,ve spent a couple of days thinking about it and it is all seems rather daunting. I haven't built a proper staircase for many many years, I,ve built some external deck stairs but nothing as important as this project.
(i only wish I still had my technical college notes of stair building from when I was an apprentice over 30 years ago)

Is there any experts that are reading that can set me in the right direction and start to simplify whats become quite cluttered in my mind.?

*The specs are roughly,* (will have exact measurements later today)

The total Rise of: 2845 mm (9feet 4inches)

The upper floor opening: 2736×900 (8feet 11 inches x 3 feet)

The nature of the A, frame building I suspect it will be a L shaped staircase with a landing at the 90 degree turn in stairs.
Attached is a very very basic first preliminary idea sketch.

*Some questions I have:*

The stair case does not have to be elaborate , actually It can be quite simple, I suspect with open risers and a simple balustrade, It needs to be nice though well built and strong and finished properly but not necessarily elaborate.

How do I work out my riser and tread spacing to make sure its comfortable to walk up and down?
Do I check out (dado) for the treads? 
Do I sit the treads on horizontal supports attached to the stringers? 
How do I incorporate the balustrade with all this?
Do I go with straight stringers or cut them out with a rise and a tread to support the treads? 
These questions and many many more.

*I definitely need help on this one.*


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## recycle1943 (Dec 16, 2013)

Anthony
I googled 'comfortable stair riser and tread'
There's a LOT of info there


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## GR8HUNTER (Jun 13, 2016)

14 steps total you must subtract the landing from that this is with 8 inch rise :<)))
so with 36 inch landing 10 inch treads your looking at 7 steps to top and 7 to lower level 
you need the other Tony for this :<))))


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

At the big box stores and construction lumber yards you can buy stringers. That kind of solves the math issue, then you just build around that. Unless i am not understanding. Just make sure to check local code(i won't bother saying the code here)
Another place i have ordered from and gotten ideas from is this site:
https://www.stair-parts.com/product-category/staircase-steps/stair-stringers/

I am currently redoing our stairs in wood and wrouhht iron, but slow going


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## Grumpy (Nov 9, 2007)

Not much help mate other than these links.
.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=build+a+staircase
.
=staircase%7Cautocomplete%7C0&term_meta[]=ideas%7Cautocomplete%7C0]https://www.pinterest.com.au/search/pins/?rs=ac&len=2&q=staircase%20ideas&eq=staircase&etslf=10816&term_meta[]=staircase%7Cautocomplete%7C0&term_meta[]=ideas%7Cautocomplete%7C0


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## Delete (May 19, 2017)

As Tony above said the other Tony is your best bet for detailed information and hands on info. If your looking for some literature I have half a dozen good books on stair building, this is probably the best one, covers many modern styles, and does most of the math for you, with tables.










That doesn't help you much unless you can find it. A better source for books is the Internet Archive, the books are older (mostly) but stair math and many designs haven't changed with time.There are 58 books and magazines at this link.https://archive.org/details/texts?and%5B%5D=%22Stair+Building%22&sin=&sort=-publicdate&and%5B%5D=languageSorter%3A%22English%22&and%5B%5D=loans_status_status%3A%22-1%22&and%5B%5D=mediatype%3A%22texts%22


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## Ripper70 (Nov 30, 2015)

Yup. You need Tony_S to chime in here. Or, just send him a PM.


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## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

I feel a lengthy thread on the horizon…lol!


> *The specs are roughly,* (will have exact measurements later today)
> 
> The total Rise of: 2845 mm (9feet 4inches) *7-1/2" is comfortable, which sets you at a total of 15 rise.*
> 
> ...


I'm not clear on the configuration of the second floor opening. You may need to consider 'Headroom' as well if it's rectangular shaped vs. open as you have it drawn.
Also consider any possible floor openings below this staircase, if there are any, and any support posts to hold up the landing.
Also consider any building code restrictions re: rise and run stair widths etc. I'm not up on the Japanese building codes. LOL!
I'll try and check back in later today….I have to go fishing now.


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## anthm27 (May 12, 2015)

Thanks for all the input Gents, I,ve been researching all day actually and have learnt a huge amount.

The actual site measurements came in late this afternoon and really put a damper on my ideas.
Its going to be extremely difficult to get a comfy set of stairs in at all.
I am definitely going to need to talk to an expert. 
Hoping that someone here is reading,

Kind Regards
Anthony


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## anthm27 (May 12, 2015)

> I m not clear on the configuration of the second floor opening. You may need to consider Headroom as well if it s rectangular shaped vs. open as you have it drawn.
> Also consider any possible floor openings below this staircase, if there are any, and any support posts to hold up the landing.
> Also consider any building code restrictions re: rise and run stair widths etc. I m not up on the Japanese building codes. LOL!
> I ll try and check back in later today….I have to go fishing now.
> ...


Hi Tony,
Thanks very much for checking in, Um, yes I sent the above post before I read yours.
This thing is complex to say the least. Not so worried about the regulations of Japan that is one plus. This house is in a prefecture of Hokkaido out of the normal building inspections. (thats the only positive at the moment) 
I,ve been playing around on this, 
https://perpendicular.pro/en/calc/3d-l-shaped-stair-calculator
Head height is big problem.
I,ve drawn it out on grid paper also.

Enjoy your fishing.
Kind Regards
Anthony


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## kroginold (Jul 13, 2015)

You might consider a spiral staircase. I've seen this in an A Frame before, and it looked good. Will require some hardware but might be easier to build. And you can get hardware kits.


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## anthm27 (May 12, 2015)

> You might consider a spiral staircase. I've seen this in an A Frame before, and it looked good. Will require some hardware but might be easier to build. And you can get hardware kits.
> 
> - kroginold


We might have to, are they doable in timber only? or require steel king post type of thing???


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## 4wood (Jul 12, 2018)

Here is a website that may be of some help. You can print the drawings after you selected what you want.

http://www.stairplan.com/stairplans.htm.

This is one of their ideas for saving space.

http://www.stairplan.com/stair-plan-catalogues/SPACE-SAVER-STAIRCASES1/index.html

The company is in the UK and does manufacture and ship the parts. Since you only have one week to complete the job I would think a pre-fabricated staircase would be the only option.


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## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

The new measurements do restrict things quite a bit more. 
The numbers I entered in are about as 'comfortable' as it's going to get unfortunately. 
I can't copy/past my version, it keeps reverting back to your drawing for some reason. All I did was change 
C=12 
P=2
Check off SP
The stairs and landing aren't terrible, but they are steep with a short unit run and rise(8-1/4"x7-7/8"). One other problem is the headroom at the landing. I don't know what the depth of the joist is around the second floor opening, but assuming it's about 12" you end up with close to 75". The building code here is 78".
You could eliminate 1 rise total on the landing to correct that issue, but that would increase the unit rise and make the main flight even more uncomfortable. Doable though.

Regarding a spiral staircase. It isn't doable in this situation.
You would need a square floor opening of approx 6'x6' minimum for it to work. With the narrow opening you have, the joist would be at stomach height by the time you turned 180 degrees.
Even if you could accommodate a spiral I would recommend against it. They're cool to look at, but thats about it. They're dangerous as hell, particularly traveling down.


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## LeeRoyMan (Feb 23, 2019)

I built a set many, many, years ago. call it a 1/2 and 1/2
don't know if it would work for you or not, I had plenty of head room.
(eat your heart out Tony) lol









( David, My employee back in 92', in case your following


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## Delete (May 19, 2017)

LRM thats is both creative and very eye appealing, but your still going to need a second floor opening of 6 X 5 or larger.


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## LeeRoyMan (Feb 23, 2019)

I just wanted Tony to see my skill set so that he will hire me.


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## Delete (May 19, 2017)

Ha, ha, lol.


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## anthm27 (May 12, 2015)

> I built a set many, many, years ago. call it a 1/2 and 1/2
> don t know if it would work for you or not, I had plenty of head room.
> (eat your heart out Tony) lol
> 
> ...


Beautiful set of stairs LeeRoy man , absolutely marvelous.


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## anthm27 (May 12, 2015)

Well , its become evident that on this particular A-Frame house, we are not going to be able to get a comfy and inside spec parameter stair case.
So the questions is now, how bad is a non comfy outside spec staircase going to be??

Already we have figured out some ways to make structural changes in order to get a better set in.

This is kind of the best I,ve come up with that should fit.

Any comments on how uncomfortable these stairs will be?


> "
> Further to that, due to the ceiling slope,at the moment I have a third of the landing lower than 2000 meter head height, any guesses to how bad this idea really is


?

Thanks in advance, all and any comments welcome


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## anthm27 (May 12, 2015)

Here is my site map of the proposed stair case above.


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## Delete (May 19, 2017)

anthm27, a little different but that should work, it is after all an A frame, different is to be expected. At 8.8" from tread to tread it is higher than normal, your legs will get a bit of a workout. I am assuming the A frame roof slope is on the right side of your drawing. If a 6'6" person stays to the right side as he turns the landing he is going to scrape his head, but a person normally would stay to the left with one hand on the railing so even a 6'6" person could climb without any danger of bumping his head. I think you said code would not be a problem.

Maybe Tony S can improve on your ideas.


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## TEK73 (Mar 15, 2019)

Maybe you are better off trying to challange the parameters then building an uncomfortable staircase?
Why must the messurements be as described? Why can't it be changed to make more space for a decent staircase?
Can the staircaise be set up at a different location? Can the opening be expamded?

Seems to me that there is a flaw in the basic planning, and I would have looked into that first, trying to solve it there..


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## anthm27 (May 12, 2015)

> anthm27, a little different but that should work, it is after all an A frame, different is to be expected. At 8.8" from tread to tread it is higher than normal, your legs will get a bit of a workout. I am assuming the A frame roof slope is on the right side of your drawing. If a 6 6" person stays to the right side as he turns the landing he is going to scrape his head, but a person normally would stay to the left with one hand on the railing so even a 6 6" person could climb without any danger of bumping his head. I think you said code would not be a problem.
> 
> Maybe Tony S can improve on your ideas.
> 
> - CarlosInTheSticks


Thanks Carlos , your making me feel better , 
Um yes, so I figure the left 2/3rds of the landing will have head height in excess of 79 inches and the right one third will have head height 79 inches down to about 55 inches. So yes I,m off specs there on the right 1/3 rd of the landing but i,m trying to trade off.

Thanks a million for taking a detailed look. (you might see in my sketch the dotted 2000mm (79 inch) head height lines

*EDIT:* yes truly hopping Tony can weigh in here also. Today is the first day I,ve kind of come up with something possibly workable.


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## anthm27 (May 12, 2015)

> Maybe you are better off trying to challange the parameters then building an uncomfortable staircase?
> Why must the messurements be as described? Why can't it be changed to make more space for a decent staircase?
> Can the staircaise be set up at a different location? Can the opening be expamded?
> 
> ...


Good call and we are doing that, I,ve stolen 12 inches into the hallway on the upper floor, and we are completely removing a beam which will be replaced with smaller sectioned steel. This way I,ll be limited for height on the lower floor ceiling only and the 60 degree a frame ceiling to the right

Thanks for the comments, please keep them coming,

*EDIT* A little more background, this is actually a pre fabricated kit type house from ESTONIA of all places, put in a container and shipped to Japan ((without Stairs)) Ill post some pics


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## anthm27 (May 12, 2015)

A couple of images of the house and the stair area



















*EDIT:* Where the ladder is leaning , we going to steel 12 inches into the hallway, and the beam in the foreground we are working on how we going to remove it or remove where it is above the stair landing.


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## Delete (May 19, 2017)

Looks like a very solid A frame. Should make someone very happy. Have you considered the idea of skipping the landing, your measurements would benefit greatly, You could put in a curved false wall at the corner, so head clearance would never be lower than 6'7". I didn't include measurements because I am having a hard time making them out on my tech., but I think once you apply your measurements to this layout you will find them more desirable. Construction is easy box structures at the curve, and the railing is easy and solid as well. Never built one, but I have seen a few conventional homes with this style.


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## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

What the hell were these Estonians thinking when they designed this?
You mentioned above that you were working on a way to move, or remove the beam in the foreground. That seems like a whole lot of work for very little, if any gain. That would allow you to raise the landing up and shorten the total rise of the second flight…which would improve the steep slope. But…then the A frame ceiling encroaches even further into the landing. Seems you would be "robbing Peter to pay Paul". You could then increase the width of the lower stairs to counteract, but then you're losing run on the upper flight.
Truthfully, Other than increasing the 2985 measure drastically, I think you're chasing your tail here.
What you've come up with so far on the last drawing isn't a 'comfortable' stair….but it isn't horrid either. 
Unless you can change things drastically you're not going to improve much.


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## anthm27 (May 12, 2015)

> What the hell were these Estonians thinking when they designed this?
> You mentioned above that you were working on a way to move, or remove the beam in the foreground. That seems like a whole lot of work for very little, if any gain. That would allow you to raise the landing up and shorten the total rise of the second flight…which would improve the steep slope. But…then the A frame ceiling encroaches even further into the landing. Seems you would be "robbing Peter to pay Paul". You could then increase the width of the lower stairs to counteract, but then you re losing run on the upper flight.
> Truthfully, Other than increasing the 2985 measure drastically, I think you re chasing your tail here.
> What you ve come up with so far on the last drawing isn t a comfortable stair….but it isn t horrid either.
> ...


Hay Tony,
Thanks for taking the time to follow and weigh in here, I see the time only 4.30 am there in Calgary. early Riser I see. (no pun intended) 
Yes clearly the Estonians where not thinking at all, or kind of planned on a ladder type set up which really i wouldn't be keen on. Maybe they were on the vodka at the time.

Actually the plan I came up with above is with measurements without the beam and using lower floor ceiling height as limiting. Somehow taking the beam out altogether or chopping it out above the landing I see as the only way forward. Thats work in progress. though. (with the beam in place I honestly dont see it working at all.) (its like 12 inches deep)

Good to hear you say that the stair isn't completely horrid.

A few things I would like to point out, if you wouldn't mind to comment that would be great.

The width of the main stairs is 1200 (4 feet), the width I was planning on the bottom pre landing entry stairs are 900 (3 feet) obviously i made the bottom set narrower to get more comfy overall.

Um, Carlos above mentioned a stepped curved landing, (not sure what this is called) I did think of this also but there was three reasons I steered away from it.

1) With the A frame 60 degree ceiling i didn't think it would achieve much in the way of not banging your head,
2) The free stair planning program I,m using didn't offer this option,
and
3) the carpentry work and execution of it would require more time and research, I would be capable, but would however definitely need some guidance and learning on how to execute it.
If you have time id be interested in your take on all of this.

Enough for now, and please understand I do appreciate your time.
I need expert advice.

Kind Regards
Anthony


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## anthm27 (May 12, 2015)

> Looks like a very solid A frame. Should make someone very happy. Have you considered the idea of skipping the landing, your measurements would benefit greatly, You could put in a curved false wall at the corner, so head clearance would never be lower than 6 7". I didn t include measurements because I am having a hard time making them out on my tech., but I think once you apply your measurements to this layout you will find them more desirable. Construction is easy box structures at the curve, and the railing is easy and solid as well. Never built one, but I have seen a few conventional homes with this style.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks again Carlos, and yes as you can see from the above, I,m running it by Tony.
Early *RISER* he is at 4.30 am, I wonder where he is *GOING*?

Regards
Anth


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## anthm27 (May 12, 2015)

By the way, i was thinking this advice could secure you boys a lifetime of ski holiday accommodation in Northern Japan. 
I do appreciate the input. 
Thank you


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## TEK73 (Mar 15, 2019)

Early RISER he is at 4.30 am, I wonder where he is GOING?
Have you considered that he might not be a early riser at all?
Maybe he just have'nt got to bed yet (that would probably had been the case for me)
;-)


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## LeeRoyMan (Feb 23, 2019)

Ever made an elevator?


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## robscastle (May 13, 2012)

I cannot be any help at all,... except….wait for it … supply some backround music while you think of a solution.


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## robscastle (May 13, 2012)

On a little more serious note would a scale model be of any assistance?


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## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

Apology's for not checking in sooner…been very busy. And yes, I'm a very early riser! I'm at the shop by 5am every morning…and open it up at 6am.
On the topic of adding a 'winder' section to the staircase, yes it's absolutely doable, and with a winder section the rise, run and slope of the straight sections can even be improved slightly. 42 degrees? I don't recall right now.
The issue's I have with a winder section…
You've mentioned 'comfortable' many times in the thread so far and a winder is the polar opposite of comfortable. They are dangerous, period. 
I can't tell you how many times I've been approached about redesigns, and possible replacements. In particular, by the elderly and people with small children.
You're much better off with a steep staircase, even one that wouldn't pass code in most places, than adding a winder section into the design imo.

Not much help other than that…I'll try and have a look in later this morning if I find some time.


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## anthm27 (May 12, 2015)

> Apology s for not checking in sooner…been very busy. And yes, I m a very early riser! I m at the shop by 5am every morning…and open it up at 6am.
> On the topic of adding a winder section to the staircase, yes it s absolutely doable, and with a winder section the rise, run and slope of the straight sections can even be improved slightly. 42 degrees? I don t recall right now.
> The issue s I have with a winder section…
> You ve mentioned comfortable many times in the thread so far and a winder is the polar opposite of comfortable. They are dangerous, period.
> ...


Thats great input Tony, Thank you, That adds to my list of three reasons not to have the winder.
Thank fully that Idea is now put to bed.
Thats great.
Thanks again
Anthony


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## anthm27 (May 12, 2015)

Hay Carlos , 
If your reading, interesting post from Tony just now.
Suits me and adds to my already dislike of the winder idea.
Regards
Anth


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## Delete (May 19, 2017)

Not a problem, just one suggestion, the design is in most of the books I have read, and my buddies house when I grew up had one of these, we used to run up and down them many times a day and I don't ever recall anyone falling or slipping. I guess most peoples objection comes from the decreasing width of the treads.


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## anthm27 (May 12, 2015)

Morning all,

Ok,
so the design is pretty well done,
On and forward to the construction, and assembly methods.
Its pretty well going to be conventional stringers, treads with open risers.

Im trying to get 10×2 or 10×3 inch material for the stringers and 10 or 12×2 or 10 or 12×1 3/4 for the treads. My plan is to router out by electric hand held router for the treads to house into the stringers, this would involve clamping a straight edge against the stringer to run the router against and moving the straight edge twice to get the required 2 inch wide house out.(anybody got any better ideas???

I,m rallying a whole lot of bar clamps for the assembly, I figure a clamp top and bottom of the stringers every couple of feet. (is this going to work????)
Lots of glue obviously and some way of screwing through the stringers into the edges of the treads. (am I on the right track?)

I will build a landing from 2×4 and somehow line it later with the same material as the treads.

Any ideas for how I am going to attach the stringers to the landings x2 ???

I,ve got a tonne more questions and haven't got to balustrade yet but enough for now.

Oh the treads are to span 4 feet, so I am figuring will need some sort of strengthening from underneath, obviously this will be seen, can i run a 4×2 under each tread somehow???

Thanks in advance, all comments welcome especially from you Tony if your reading.
Cheers
Regards
Anthony


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

From public domain:









Maybe a shop made Festool MFS instead of moving the straight edge?

Best of luck


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## anthm27 (May 12, 2015)

> From public domain:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Mate I appreciate the encouragement but we will be working in the bush in Northern Hokkaido, festolol wont get a look in.
You did well though. very very nice


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

Understandable, you're smart enough to make a jig that will work.

We have faith in you anthm27 you got this no problem.


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## anthm27 (May 12, 2015)

> Understandable, you re smart enough to make a jig that will work.
> 
> We have faith in you anthm27 you got this no problem.
> 
> - waho6o9


I have no idea what you are talking about, At this point I can do without what seems like idealistic condescending comments. Thanks all the same.


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

Just some encouragement.


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## anthm27 (May 12, 2015)

> Just some encouragement.
> 
> - waho6o9


We have faith????
Please


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## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

> Morning all,
> 
> Ok,
> so the design is pretty well done,
> ...


A lot of questions all at once, so I might miss one or two.
For the routing jig, you don't need anything more than a 3/8" or 1/2" thick piece of plywood about 12"x 24" with the proper size rectangle cut out of the center. Then set the router up with either a template guide for the router base, or a template router bit.
Once the stingers are drafted with a framing square, just clamp the jig onto the face of the stringer and route out a tread. Then move the jig and route out the next, and so on.
On a solid wood open rise stair, the tread and stringer are normally mortise and tenon. The tenon on the end of the tread is usually 1/4" all the way around the tread and 7/16" into the stringer(1/2" deep mortise for the stringer).
You don't NEED to put a true tenon on the tread. It can just go straight into the mortise if you like, but it's easier to get a clean tight joint with a tenon.
The tread is usually glued with PL Premium and lag bolted through the face of the stringer and covered, but it depends on the look, and the material. You can also use hanger bolts and plugs from the underside of the tread.
As for attaching the stringers to the landings….I assume you're talking about the tops of the stairs? 
There is normally a 'top riser' even on an open rise staircase. It would typically be attached to both stringers as well as the top tread. The top riser is then normally screwed or bolted to the landing, or header.
Clear as mud?
Anymore questions, just ask.

ps…..I don't think waho6o9 was intending to be condescending at all. I didn't read it that way anyways.


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## jacksdvds (Jun 13, 2015)

Not a stair builder BUT:
Fact of rise of 112" 
with 7.5 riser =15 steps
with 8" riser = 14 steps
with 9" riser = almost 13 steps difficult to use
Your sketch shows 11 steps










Suggest you reduce the second set of steps by 1 or two, move the landing and lower section to the left, increase the steps of it which will increase the headroom to the slanted wall. You might not have the footprint for the extra length of lower set of steps, IDK?
You could also do a complete double back of the lower set.


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## anthm27 (May 12, 2015)

> *A lot of questions all at once, so I might miss one or two.
> For the routing jig, you don t need anything more than a 3/8" or 1/2" thick piece of plywood about 12"x 24" with the proper size rectangle cut out of the center. Then set the router up with either a template guide for the router base, or a template router bit.
> Once the stingers are drafted with a framing square, just clamp the jig onto the face of the stringer and route out a tread. Then move the jig and route out the next, and so on.
> On a solid wood open rise stair, the tread and stringer are normally mortise and tenon. The tenon on the end of the tread is usually 1/4" all the way around the tread and 7/16" into the stringer(1/2" deep mortise for the stringer).
> ...


*If you have time Tony please see my answers in Bold*

For the routing jig, you don't need anything more than a 3/8" or 1/2" thick piece of plywood about 12"x 24" with the proper size rectangle cut out of the center. Then set the router up with either a template guide for the router base, or a template router bit. *Perfect, got that one*.
Once the stingers are drafted with a framing square, just clamp the jig onto the face of the stringer and route out a tread. Then move the jig and route out the next, and so on. *Got it, and will do it this way*
On a solid wood open rise stair, the tread and stringer are normally mortise and tenon. The tenon on the end of the tread is usually 1/4" all the way around the tread and 7/16" into the stringer(1/2" deep mortise for the stringer).
You don't NEED to put a true tenon on the tread. It can just go straight into the mortise if you like, but it's easier to get a clean tight joint with a tenon. *I didn't realize this but i dont think I am going to go with the mortise and tenon just house the whole section of the tread into the stringer and use the lag bolts and screws. will this suffice?*
The tread is usually glued with PL Premium and lag bolted through the face of the stringer and covered, but it depends on the look, and the material. You can also use hanger bolts and plugs from the underside of the tread.

As for attaching the stringers to the landings….I assume you're talking about the tops of the stairs? *Yes the top of the stairs and also the small stair that butts up to the intermediate landing.*There is normally a 'top riser' even on an open rise staircase. It would typically be attached to both stringers as well as the top tread. The top riser is then normally screwed or bolted to the landing, or header.* Hmmm, my plan shows no top riser , I will ll attach a pic below, still kind of stuck on how I going to secure the whole stair case in place.*
Clear as mud? *Actually I am getting everything your saying and certainly do appreciate your input and time*
Anymore questions, just ask.

*Also I was thinking the treads wont span the 4 foot span and will need some sort of support under them, Would a piece of 4×2 on edge work? Underneath the tread? It will be seen? I am thinking I need some sort of support. Whats your take?*


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## anthm27 (May 12, 2015)

> Not a stair builder BUT:
> Fact of rise of 112"
> with 7.5 riser =15 steps
> with 8" riser = 14 steps
> ...


Thanks for the time and input, pr the problem is the head height at the very start of the stair case. Not just the A frame roof slope.


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## anthm27 (May 12, 2015)

I am having a practice of laying out the stair stringers, and have worked out how to do it if I want the Tread to protrude out the top edge of the stringer.









But not sure about how I lay out if I want the tread well inside the top edge of the stringer, similar to pic attached.
Cant sit my sqare on the top edge of the stringer


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## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

> * Hmmm, my plan shows no top riser , I will ll attach a pic below, still kind of stuck on how I going to secure the whole stair case in place.*
> The elevation drawing isn't entirely accurate in regards to the true construction of the stairs. When I get to the shop this morning I'll snap some pictures. The boys have a couple open rise jobs on the go right now in both plywood(carpet grade) treads and hardwood treads.
> That'll be easier than explaining.
> 
> ...


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## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

Example of the top riser detail and stringer detail.
You can do it this way, or eliminate the top riser and rabbet but you would need access to the back side of the joist that the stringers sit against. That way you can just bolt through the back side of the header into the stringers. If you do decide to use a top riser, remember to account for the thickness of it in the unit run, because it'll push the stairs out that much further from the header.


















Bottom of the stringer that sits on the landing. You don't need the hooks, birdsmouth, crowsfoot, call it what you like. They tend to look better in most cases on an open rise staircase.

















Drafting the stringer.
You should be able to draft from the bottom edge of the stringer as per the picture.
Thats a 24" square set up on a 12" deep stringer. The square 'set' is just a simple straight edge held together with a couple of small bolts and wing nuts. It works much better than standard stair sets. especially when you near the top or bottom of the draft.


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## anthm27 (May 12, 2015)

Tony, thank you thank you,
Um, Its late here, , Ill need time to absorb this and make sure I understand. Awesome pics and please let me take some time to work out if I truly understand.

In the meantime I have tried to get a lumber order together today the stringers 250×45 the treads 285×45 (span 1230 Outside stair measurement) (Not sure yet of lumber type, friend is trying to source this week) , its difficult in japan, its possibly going to be good quality pine. (i know its not great) Do you think the 285×45 will span the 1230 ? outside measurement? inside would be 1140

Thanks again, This thing is a testing for me. 
Aim is to have a stairs in by the 9th of august.


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## anthm27 (May 12, 2015)

Urgent question, 
Hi Tony , I,m actually on my way to Japan this morning to give this thing ago.

Seems to me the first thing I need to work out is the height of the intermediate landing, And I need to squeeze this as high as I can for best results. And this height is my starting point to build the two flights to make the L.

My question, and I have uploaded a sketch to help with the question.

I read that 2000 mm is the legal type minimum spec height. BUT I,m unsure exactly where this 2000 mm is measured from.

I have an Asian design uncomfortable BUT acceptable flight of stairs here in Hong Kong and the head height is almost right on the acceptable limit.(NOT SPEC BUT ACCEPTABLE)
It measures 1950mm from the middle of a tread plumb up to the concrete ceiling beam. BUT its 1850mm plumb up from the line of the tread nosings. Yes uncomfortable but we,ve lived with it for 15 years and find it the absolute acceptable limit. (no bumped heads)

What measurement is the important LIMITING one. The 1950mm directly plumb under the corner of the ceiling beam (which happens to fall in the middle of a tread. OR the 1850 measured plumb from the stair tread nosing to the under side corner of the ceiling beam.
I truly hope that makes sense.
Thank you in advance.

Regards
Anthony


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## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

> I read that 2000 mm is the legal type minimum spec height. BUT I,m unsure exactly where this 2000 mm is measured from.
> - anthm27


It's measured at whats most often called the "line of flight" (or pitch line)which is close to the dotted line you have drawn in. Your sketch isn't 100% accurate though. The stair you have drawn doesn't have any nosings. The line of flight is at the nosing line, not the top intersection of the rise and run. 
You spec'd a 2" nosing(that wouldn't pass here btw. It's a 1" max in Canada) so your dotted line needs to move over to the nosing line.
I have no clue what the codes are in Japan, but I would make an educated guess that the line of light is no different there.
The line of flight is the 'limiting' measure you should use, not to the top of the tread.
The line of flight is also the line you would use for your handrail height.
I pulled this off the interwebs.


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## anthm27 (May 12, 2015)

> I read that 2000 mm is the legal type minimum spec height. BUT I,m unsure exactly where this 2000 mm is measured from.
> - anthm27
> 
> It s measured at whats most often called the "line of flight" (or pitch line)which is close to the dotted line you have drawn in. Your sketch isn t 100% accurate though. The stair you have drawn doesn t have any nosings. The line of flight is at the nosing line, not the top intersection of the rise and run.
> ...


Thank you,
Thats great.
yes my Hong Kong flight has no nosing but the risers arent 90 degrees they push out at the bottom, (carpeted concrete)

Understand the line of flight is where to take the height measurement from and plum up. Here,s the biggy, will 1850mm (72.8 inches) from line of flight to under ceiling be acceptable? It seems that exactly what i have here in HK?

Kind Regards
Anthony


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## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

> Here,s the biggy, will 1850mm (72.8 inches) from line of flight to under ceiling be acceptable? It seems that exactly what i have here in HK?
> 
> - anthm27


Be acceptable to who though? 
The min headroom clearance in Canada is 76-3/4" or 1950mm. I'm 5-10" If it was my house, I wouldn't want to encroach on that measurement at all. 
Not only for comfort and safety, but moving furniture etc.


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## anthm27 (May 12, 2015)

Well, this is going to be interesting.

As I arrived in Japan yesterday my mate was departing for a few days, handed me the keys to the Audi Q7 with a whole lot of stair lumber tied to the roof, gave me google map coordinates of the log house he's rented me and Lovie for the week and said good luck with everything see you Wednesday.

What are friends for hay"?

Oh and the lumber order not correct either. I,m trying to keep a smile.
Site set up and accurate layout today , prep for tools tomorrow.

Thanks for all the input especially to you Tony,

Let's see how this goes.


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## anthm27 (May 12, 2015)

The end of Day three and things going better than expected.
Using lots of info Tony that you passed on. Thank you. The Coach bolts, the template with bowl cutter bit. Headroom managed 1950 and 42 degrees. It's a squeeze but think we got something workable.

Edit,,,,, oh they only got me 38 mm stock so i. Laminated two together for the stringers. It hid the coach bolt heads.

My lovie Cheryl the best Stair build labourer ever.

Will post as a project when i get home.


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## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

Looks like you're making good progress. I'll keep an eye open for more photos/updates.
Are you planning on doing the handrail while you're there as well?


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## anthm27 (May 12, 2015)

> Looks like you re making good progress. I ll keep an eye open for more photos/updates.
> Are you planning on doing the handrail while you re there as well?
> 
> - Tony_S


Cheers Tony.
No mate, i won't have time to do handrail this trip and all that is undecided. I've kind of tried to keep it so options are open. 
I'm 50 and haven't done stairs for over 20 years. My question is, do the young carpenters learn these skills these days? Or have interest in the skill? I suspect in Australia most stairs are pre fab. 
Cheers Anthony


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## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

> My question is, do the young carpenters learn these skills these days? Or have interest in the skill? I suspect in Australia most stairs are pre fab.
> - anthm27


The subject is touched on during their apprenticeship in both carpentry and cabinet making, but nothing in depth. Very low grade and next to useless. They might be able to build a deck stair when they're done, but thats about it.
Custom stairs and railing is a very specialized business. Much more so than cabinet making.
A lot of young kids show interest in custom stairs, but it's a fairly high turnover rate. Out of ten hires I would typically only find one or two that have the hands and mind for it.


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## anthm27 (May 12, 2015)

Thursday here and I,m done. Tomorrow sight seeing then back to Hong Kong on Saturday,
A few more pics of the finished stair case.
No balastrade, false risers and trim but that will wait for final fix.
I,m quietly proud of this project and the time it took me. ( the planning took two weeks though and got some great answers from Tony here) Tony I have some technical questions for later if you don't mind, but for when I'm home on my PC.
My gorgeous love Cheryl handed me my tools , drill bits, straight edges and carted lumber, hour by hour she stood by helping where she could. Such a great sport she is.


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## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

Good to see it all came together for you. 
Glad I could help.


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## DavePolaschek (Oct 21, 2016)

Looks like a solid and usable staircase, Anthony! Glad it all came together.


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## duckmilk (Oct 10, 2014)

Nicely done Anthony!


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## anthm27 (May 12, 2015)

Thanks gents thank you.
Classic type old school staircase build.
Not fancy but functional. 
Nice to be having the day off today I can tell you that much.


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## Keebler1 (Mar 15, 2019)

Nice job


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## JayZ (Mar 11, 2017)

Anthm27, can we have an update?

I am very curious to know the outcome


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## JayZ (Mar 11, 2017)

Satisfaction level?


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## anthm27 (May 12, 2015)

Well ,to kind of finish off, 
This is the link to the finished project.

2 weeks in the planning and 4.5 days in the execution.

The main stair we finished with 9 treads 210mm Risers and 233mm Goings to give a 42 degree slope. Steep yes but at the end of the day finished it seemed still comfortable enough to walk up and down.

Head room we managed 1950mm from pitch line to finished ceiling, low yes but workable.

Tony one question if I may, I bolted this outside stringer to the post here with two lag bolts(coach bolts in Australia)Having used the correct diameter drill bits , It was really nice tight and good fixing, Unfortunately I forgot to glue it which I can go back and do another time.
Do you normally check these type stringers in? Do you glue here? How would you have done it???


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## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

> Tony one question if I may, I bolted this outside stringer to the post here with two lag bolts(coach bolts in Australia)Having used the correct diameter drill bits , It was really nice tight and good fixing, Unfortunately I forgot to glue it which I can go back and do another time.
> Do you normally check these type stringers in? Do you glue here? How would you have done it???
> - anthm27


With a connection like that, yes to all the above. It would typically be a mortise and tenon, glue and lags. 
You should definitely glue it when you go back. You mentioned somewhere that you used 3/8"x5" lags for the build. If you used the same lags for this connection, I would switch them out for 1/2"x8" just as a precaution.
All said and done, it'll be fine.


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## anthm27 (May 12, 2015)

> Tony one question if I may, I bolted this outside stringer to the post here with two lag bolts(coach bolts in Australia)Having used the correct diameter drill bits , It was really nice tight and good fixing, Unfortunately I forgot to glue it which I can go back and do another time.
> Do you normally check these type stringers in? Do you glue here? How would you have done it???
> - anthm27
> 
> ...


Thanks Tony,
Good call, when Im back at some stage I,ll switch them for longer lags and glue.
Thanks


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