# Confused about Dust Collection



## DavidNJ

I'm getting very confused about the dust collection options. I've seen 1 hp wall mounted units, units with a big filter on top and bag on bottom in sizes from 1hp to 10+hp, units with cyclonic action before the filter and bag, shop vacs which seem to have as much power but much less airflow, and cyclonic add on's to shop vacs.Then there are supplementary filtering units and all of the units come in different specifications from 1 micron to 30 micron with 2-2.5 micron seeming most common. However, those measurements don't give percentages or how they decay over time.

Prices are also over the place. Shop vacs from under $100 to over $600. Top filter units from $250 to thousands. Cyclonic units seem to start at $800 with Jet having some add-on that they claim does a similar function in the same price range.

I'll need to handle one tool at a time. The tools will include a table saw (probably 3hp cabinet but possibly 1.75hp contractor), router table, miter saw, jig saw, handheld router, belt/disc sander, and, maybe circular saw.

What do you recommend? Will a shop vac with Oneida Dust Deputy cyclone be sufficient? Is an air filter needed in addition to the dust extractor?

The workshop is in the basement.

Thanks,

David


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## LepelstatCrafts

I use the HF 2 HP Industrial 5 Micron Dust Collector

I have a jointer, table saw, planer, sander, and band saw hooked up to it with a home made cyclone separator. Blast gates are helpful from pulling the long distances. For the money I think this is going to be your biggest bang too.


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## DavidNJ

The price is right…with an HF coupon it would be $160 and just pick up at the store down the hill. However, there are lots of bad reviews mixed in with the good reviews…some really bad. Is 5 micron good enough?










Is a cartridge better than bag? Grizzly has a 1hp with cartridge for $325. It seems the cartridge alone is half that amount.










Oneida shows Dust Deputies added in parallel with what seems to be shop vacs can increase the airflow; is it enough of table saws?










Are the big dust collectors too big for handheld tools?


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## Loren

There are differences between chip collection (jointer, planer,
table saw) and fine dust extraction (sanders). A big dust
collector with a lot of CFM can get the chips (which a smaller
one can too) and the fine dust too. A more modest dust
collector will tend to let you down in fine dust extraction.

For a hobby user, I would get decent chip collection in
place first. You can hook up a shop vac to handheld
power tools and get pretty good extraction.

If there is any way at all you can vent your chip collector
outside the house, consider it.


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## josephf

i have been at this one myself for a few years now .have two dust depudy's set-up on vacuums .they let some buy when there is a lot of debre coming at it .the one hooked to my mitersaw works excellent .i use them for rotortables and small equipment .a good place to start and it will always have a place in your shop .down side is my vacuums are so very loud . i use tool activated festool vacs for sanding . i now have two bag type dust collectors ,bought them used . the tablesaw tends to need more air flow then a vacuum provides .i bought a cyclone on ebay ,have the small one on my 1 1/2hp collector works super well.http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cyclone-Separator-for-Dust-Collector-/270423194251?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3ef67a7a8b . i have been doing this as i go over the years . kind of need to figure how you work ,what you want to spend .love to hear what works for you


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## History

In my opinion the Delta 50-760 Dust Collector is the best bang for the buck in a portable dust collector. It gets high rateings, comes with a 1 micron felt filter bag, and it's design makes it easy to add an onboard separator to it, which saves space. I really like the one that I have, and am proud of the addons that I have designed and built for it.


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## DavidNJ

Do you mean vent outside without a bag or filter? I don't thing so. It would either be going under the deck or into shrubbery, neither sounds like a good idea. Plus the noise to neighbors would be greater.

For reference, this is the $800 delivered Grizzly 1hp with canister, cyclone, and remote control:










The Jet uses some sort of funky cone in a conventional cartridge unit but claims cyclone results.




























The HF or single stage Grizzly would probably need a cyclone of some sort. Grizzly has one that goes on a garbage can for $35. An Oneida Super Dust Deputy is around $200 plus you need to add and modify a cannister.










They also have a setup for three regular models with two shop vacs.










The HF has a 4" inlet port, which seems strange given its rated power and airflow. I thought most vertical filter above collection systems used 6" ports. The outlet from the Super Dust Deputy is 6".


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## Loren

Spend more, get more. If it matters to you a lot, spend
as much as you can afford.


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## sonnyr

DavidNJ, everytime dust collection threads come up somebody almost always tries to direct you to Bill Pentz. I have read and reread his website and am amazed everytime I do. It's alot to read but he has the best (IMHO) advice on true "dust collection" not just chip collection.
Try to use this as a guide for what you need:
http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm


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## MedicKen

I would start here.

http://www.amazon.com/Woodshop-Dust-Control-Sandor-Nagyszalanczy/dp/1561584991/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1356325753&sr=1-1&keywords=woodshop+dust+control


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## MR_Cole

Definatly get the HF 2 hp Dust collector. Tons of people on here love it. Then for $110 add a 1 micron canister filter from wynn. I installed mine last weekend and I cant believe I didnt do it earlier.

Wynn filter: http://wynnenv.com/35A_series_cartridge_kit.htm

Harbor freight dc:http://www.harborfreight.com/2-hp-industrial-5-micron-dust-collector-97869.html

For $270 you have a great canister dust collector.


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## DavidNJ

My question may also be stated: can I put 2 or 3 6.5 hp vacuums (


Code:


$130 each), rated at 60 in of water/180-195 cfm with 3 or 4 Dust Deputies (

$35 each) connected via a common outlet plenum to the vacuums and a common input or is that just blowing smoke. The canister filter Grizzly is cheaper than the 3 vacs. By the time you add a Super Dust Demon and drum you are closer $650 or so, right on top of the "vortex" Jet and pretty close to the cyclone 2-stage Grizzly with canister filter and remote control.


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## runswithscissors

Don't be taken in by "6.5 horsepower" claims. See the thread topic "What is 3 hp?" There is a big difference between 110 v. universal motors and 220 v. induction motors. 110 v. induction motors fall in the middle, and realistically are rated up to 1.5, maybe 1.75 h.p. Your two 6.5 h.p vacs would not suck as much dust as one 2 hp. dust collector. And would draw more electricity, and would be way noisier.


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## DavidNJ

I just waded through the Bill Pentz sonnyr referenced above. It is also linked by the filter site Cole Tallerman linked above.

Now I understand why I'm confused. All our filters are awful and many more hazardous than our tools. SawStop may protect our fingers, but we are poisoning ourselves with fine dust the size of bacteria. Pentz described home woodworking shops as equivalent to third world operations generating more fine dust in the air in 4 hours than a commercial shop meeting OSHA regulations does in a year.

Loren above suggested venting outdoors. This apparently is de rigueur for commercial shops. What it is doing is dispersing the fine particles outside the workshop. Some building codes might not allow this.

The volume of air that exhausts creates another problem: low inside air pressure. This can cause flues to reverse. It is a problem with the commercial hoods in all restaurants and some homes equipped with commercial range hoods. Only a few US jurisdictions have residential building codes for makeup air. For restaurants there are significant makeup air units available to heat incoming air in cold weather. Usually, the HVAC system is also sized to include a significant part outside air. Raising 800 cfm 50°F (20°F outside) would require an 60k-80k BTU furnace.

One way to handle them may be an electrostatic precipitator. These are sold as upgrades to home HVAC systems as 'electronic filters'. They charge incoming particles and then collect them on negatively charged panels. Commercial precipitators, the size of a building, hammer the plates to clean them. Home systems require a run through the dishwasher every few months. In practice, in most home systems the electrostatic precipitators are inoperable after just a few months. One major residential HVAC vendor puts a full 4" thick fabric filter in front of their precipitator. All the overhead filters sold for woodworking are a fabric filter design (baghouse in commercial filter design).

Pentz also complained our cyclones (and how many home woodworkers have cyclones?) are too small and our filters too small, not fine enough, and and still transmit too much fine dust. They cyclone he seemed to favor was the Woodsucker models, long out of production, big, and expensive.

I'm beginning to form some ideas of a possible solutions. One would be a big indoor cyclone with the output sent outside where the filters and final collection were in a small enclosure. An blower producing the same airflow (but less powerful since it would face less resistance) would bring in an equal amount of outside air from another area far from filters. To the best of my knowledge no one makes that for home use.

The next alternative enclose the filters and with a separate blower push the air through an electrostatic precipiatotor. You could even add a catalytic filter to handle the VOCs that I'm pretty sure some of the woods and processed materials emit. None of the systems seem to have that either.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing…and I'm more confused than ever. And I thought all the fumes from racing gas and the tires was toxic!

Note: Pentz didn't talk about electrostatic precipitators or VOCs, I added that.


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## DavidNJ

I found this cyclone on e-bay. More interesting are some of the configurations.

In the first a user has it outside, and appears to blow everything that the cyclone doesn't get through a stack of automotive air filters.

In the second it seems to vent out the roof.


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## Loren

Pentz may be a bit alarmist. Read this: http://woodgears.ca/dust/dylos.html


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## knotscott

Impeller size is a large factor in real world air flow, measured as CFM. Many of the CFM ratings should be taken lightly, as they're often measured in ways that don't represent a real world load, or are simply heavily over stated. I'd go with something at least as capable as the HF "2hp" unit. Most of the 1hp units with 9" or smaller impellers don't quite make the grade. The HF DC has a 10-3/4" impeller, a motor closer to 1.5hp, and is capable of something closer to 600-800 CFM….it's recommended that you upgrade the bags to a cannister type filter with a smaller micron rating. The step up to something like a Penn, Grizzly, Jet, Delta, or JDS will likely run at least twice as much as the HF, but will have 12" to 13" impellers and will draw close to their stated CFM ratings.

Here's a pic that shows the difference between a 10-3/4" impeller and a 13" impeller:


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## Manitario

Here's an excellent summary of the how's and why of dust collection:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?24003-Dust-Collection-my-latest-two-cents-worth&highlight=


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## teejk

I am still paralyzed on the subject (google the subject and you'll find 10 people expressing 20 opinions…they can't even decide in their own heads). I guess my biggest question right now is ease of emptying. Bags look a little messy.


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## DavidNJ

Nice pictures, knotscott.

Manitario, Bill Pentz has is latest info on his website: http://billpentz.com/woodworking/Cyclone/

The ClearVue appears to be Pentz's design implemented. Phii Thein complains they stole some of his design. The ClearVue is a bunch of parts connected with MDF. The parts are the plastic cyclone, a 5hp motor, a 15" or 16" impeller, and two tall filters.

They sell the parts separately-motor $375, impeller $225, cyclone $450, filters $300/$400 (either $150 or $200 each)-but the sum is high enough that it pays just to get the completed unit at $1595 or $1695 depending on the filter chosen. There is probably a hefty shipping charge on top of that, but the individual components should be light enough not to require a fork lift for unloading. Additional pieces may run a few hundred more…say $2000 total.

The Clear-Vue probably defines the upper limit of the units we have discussed here.



















This is a YouTube of the ClearVue assembly, giving lots of good shots of the details: 




Can an HF based unit come close? With a 20% coupon (in every issue of Circle Track magazine) the dust collector is $160. The filter from Wynn is $150-$170 plus shipping; they shy it fits the HF without issues. You can get a cyclone to fit it for $200-$250 on eBay. Miscellaneous extra parts would probably add another $100 or so for a total of about $675.

The Grizzly 1.5 hp cyclone is about $150 more, but probably doesn't include as good a filter. The Grizzly 2hp canister with the cyclone added the same way has the HF would be about the same, but again the filter probably wouldn't be as good. The cyclones look similar but the aftermarket one looks a bit better (taller cone).



















Loren, his tests are interesting but his macro probably wasn't enough to see anything in the range we are talking about. I have a bellows with reversed 20mm lens to get 10x (enough to see the pixels on a TV screen). There are bellows extensions to double that. He had a simple macro lens. 1 micro is VERY small, about 100-200x smaller than those pixels.

He did talk about the air being cleaner with air blowing through a filter. A stop at Home Depot will show the filters come in a variety of strengths. The air filtration boxes that are sold are nothing more than blowing air over a filter. and could probably be constructed inexpensively using furnace filters and a modest fan.

The runtime issue for filtration is an issue. Furnaces run intermittently based on temperature. Commercial systems run to limit CO2 buildup from occupants. That isn't a residential problem because the occupancy density is much lower and the people are often at rest. However, running the house air through the filter is important if air quality is the concern. I'm not sure if any thermostats handle it. a third party does make a cycling device. It may be useful to have if a lot of woodworking is taking place in the house. Or the furnace fan can be left in the on position during woodworking and for a few hours afterwards.


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## DIYaholic

Just figured I throw in my vote:
"2HP" HF DC
Thein Top Hat Pre-Separator
Wynn "Nano" canister filter
Ducting throughout shop, with blast gates at each drop/machine
Long Ranger remote start
All that that combined with an ambient air cleaner.

Making dust should be fun…..
NOT life threatening!!!


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## DavidNJ

Just got off the phone with Grizzly. The G0703P has a spun polyester filter and 13.5in impeller, larger than the 12.75in on there normal 2hp & 3hp units. Although rated at 1.5hp, it draws more current, [email protected] more than the 2hp unit (9A). It would be $840 with tailgate delivery, or within $100 or so of the HF with a canister filter and cyclone added. It also includes a remote control. It has a 6" inlet compared to the 4" inlet on the HF.

Based on that I would say the HF is no longer a reasonable option given the requirements for a cyclone and canister filter.










Spec sheet: http://cdn0.grizzly.com/specsheets/g0703p_ds.pdf


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## History

DIY, unless you have a very small shop and you duct it in correctly I seriously doubt that an over rated CFM 2 hp HF dust collector is going to be enough.


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## DavidNJ

A very small shop…one tool at a time.

DIYaholic, that would make sense if the HF unit was already there. The Thein is a pseudo-cyclone, it works but with greater pressure drop. The Grizzly is about the same price and adds more power, a bigger impeller, 6" inlet port, and it comes as integrated unit without extra plumbing to connect the impeller to the cyclone..


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## DIYaholic

I do have a small shop, 13' x 20'. The longest run is around 15'.

DavidNJ,
The Grizzly system seems a better alternative, that is if one can outlay that much at one time. I need to build my DC system, piece by piece, as I didn't have that much discretionary funds available.
Good luck, and please keep us informed!!!


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## DavidNJ

DYI, your progression makes sense if you start with the HF already there. The cyclone and canister are needed improvements.

Has anyone made there own air filter putting a standard furnace filter and a fan in a box? Or added the commercially available ones?

The Canadian on the link Loren posted above ran a fan on the floor through a high end furnace filter on his bedroom floor (no box) and significantly reduced the airborne particles measured and observed.










http://woodgears.ca/dust/dylos.html


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## DavidNJ

Now let me add the Penn State Industries Tempests.

The design is similar to the Clearvue but more sizes are available. The 2hp (although at 9A it draws less than the Grizzly), 12"impeller (vs. the Grizzly's 13.5") is equipped with dual nano filters. $875 stationary, $895 mobile. The mobile unit only collect dust under the cyclone. After passing the filters air is re-routed to the cyclone inlet.

The 2.5hp model with a 14" impeller is $1095.

Shipping is extra, probably around $150.










These appear to be a step up from the Grizzly although more expensive and having the remote an extra $65-$75

Interestingly, they provide fan performance graphs. These can provide more insight. These are the 2hp, 2.5hp , and 3.5hp stationary models.










The 2.5hp and 3.5hp only differ in motor/blower and filters…the filters are 20% taller on the bigger unit.

They also offer mufflers that go between the filters and the blower that they reduces the noise level 50%.


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## MedicKen

I dont understand why everyone is so quick to recommend a particular collector. Every shop is different and you need to calculate the amount of flow from EACH machine and where it is placed and where the DC will be located. A Horror Fright 2hp DC may NOT be the answer to ALL shops. If you are gonna move the collector to each machine as it is used then the HF may work. But, if you are looking at a stationary cyclone you had better do the math first and make sure the main lines and subsequent branch lines are sized appropriately before you buy a collector. It would just suck, no pun intended, to set up a cyclone, run all the piping and then learn that you have undersized, or oversized, and the system doesnt work. One DC is NOT a solution for everyone and people who recommend a collector are just ignorant.


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## MR_Cole

The HF has 2 4" inlets or one 6" inlet. not just 1 4" inlet. the wynn connects easily to the HF. I have about 30'- 40' of duct and it does fine. The longest run is about 20 ft and it is hooked up to 7 machines


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## HorizontalMike

David: "...Based on that I would say the HF is no longer a reasonable option given the requirements for a cyclone and canister filter…."

Please understand that you can build/upgrade over time, if choosing the HF unit. So if money is tight at the moment, you can always take the upgrade route. IMO, do not short change the HF 2hp dust collector. It is a great way to start out while on a tighter budget and if I had to venture a bet, I would bet that there are more HF DCs being used by LJs members than of any other brand.

My personal timeline (remembering I also use a 9×16 garage door opening most of the time):

I bought the HF "2hp" DC system $170
+6 months, I built a DIY Thien trashcan chip separator ~$40 (includes can)
NOW 3 years later, I just ordered the Wynn Environmental Spun bound filter for the HF. ~$170 (includes sh.)
TOTAL SPENT = $380

And the above price of *$380* gives me dust collection WITH cyclonic separator PLUS a Wynn Environmental filter. The very cheapest Grizzly, Grizzly G0703, unit with ALL THREE features is currently $804 delivered, or more than TWICE as much.


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## crank49

As a foundry engineer, dealing with EPA, OSHA, etc. for the last 40 years, and having a wood shop in my basement, I can tell you the HF 2hp collector is a reasonable first step.

The cartridge filter mod for it is a good step to increase filter surface area, and hence airflow while getting the particulate capture down to 0.5 micron.

A simple drop out box (a 30 gal metal trash can works well) in the duct, before the fan and filter, is a good mod to make emptying the dust and chips easier and to reduce wear on the fan impeller. A cyclone here is not necessary and drags system pressure down.

I am putting my collector in a sound deadening closet.

If I ducted it outside I would add a heat exchanger to recover temperature conditioned air.

Another stage that is very handy for a basement shop is a shop air filter. They can be had with activated charcoal filter elements to absorb fumes. Fumes is a bigger problem for me. It's not just paint and lacquer, but even wood glue, epoxy, stain, even some wood itself will stink up the house.

You will still want a good shop vac for hand held power tools like sanders, routers, etc. The best mod I made in this area is a good premium extra long hose.


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## DavidNJ

HorizontalMike, how well does your trashcan separator work? Which one did you use? Grizzly has one that they charge $35 for. Sounds like an intelligent system buildup.

Crank49, you have agreed with Mike's setup. Do you have data for the pressure drop across a cyclone or the relative performance of a cyclone vs. drop out box setup like the one Mike used? In magazine reviews, such as the one in Fine Woodworking, the cyclones had little if any performance drop over use while those without had significant. The question is: where does the drop out box fall in that spectrum?

There are charts for the pressure drop across different diameter and type of ducting and ducting transitions. There are also charts for the various CFM requirements across different shop tools. Is there a chart that has the pressure drop across the tool? Grizzly has one entry that had a 2" drop from a dust hood to a 4" duct.

With a cyclone especially, there is a big penalty if the air flow drops below a required speed (fpm in contrast with volume in cfm). Some people complain their system is very loud. I'm wondering if that is because their air speed is too high. For example, 1000cfm into a 6" duct is over 5000ft/min. Penn State said their design target is 3500fpm-4000fpm with 3000fpm being too low.

"Oneida has a Smart Dust Collector in their portable line that adjusts impeller speed to maintain optimal airflow speed. However, it is frightfully expensive!










Some things I've learned.

The Grizzly 703/703P (which is $840 delivered with cart and remote) has cyclones and filters that are 1/2 the size (literally, 1/2 the size) of Grizzly's other cyclone dust collectors. A rather large difference! However, the 703 is probably enough in a small shop with only one tool active and short duct distances.

The 1.5hp 443, 2hp 440, and 3hp 441 all share the same cyclone and canister filters differing only in motor and impeller size. There is a $200 difference between the 443 and 440, but the upgrade to 220v adds $91 to the 443. The 703 includes a cart. Grizzly charges over $200 for a stand for the 440 series. There is also an optional muffler. The costs quickly add up.


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## ruel24

I would really like to see a good reliable magazine such as Fine Woodworking or Wood finally put this stuff to rest. There is too much misinformation out there. I do know that a cyclone, in and of itself, (think Dust Deputy or a Thein baffle) slows airflow down due to the longer route the air now has to take and the added friction the air incurs. It's just like how Dyson vacuums don't suck as well as a bag vacuum cleaner. However, there are so many other factors involved once you get to dedicated cyclones, such as impeller size & design. Lastly, the information Loren provided was very informative, but it didn't show how well the fine dust was getting sucked up at the tool, which is something Pentz makes a case about. However, it is very enlightening, and points out that fine dust escapes the cyclone, so the cyclone doesn't really add anything to fine dust collection. It simply seperates the larger particles before the blower motor, which is a good idea.

That leads one to question whether or not a cyclone really isn't just an expensive toy or if it really is better than a single stage dust collection system. I think the jury is still out on that. There hasn't been a test that has given conclusive evidence that anything is actually improved.


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## DavidNJ

This is an American Woodworker test of various cyclones in 2006. Oddly, most are the same as the current units, just the price is now higher.

On a price/performance basis, it would seem the Grizzly G0440-series would be the winners.

http://www.oneida-air.com/PDF/AWW%20article%20jan%202006.pdf

This is one in Fine Woodworking: http://www.finewoodworking.com/membership/fwnpdf/011223052-revised-09-12.pdf


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## crank49

1st, let me say that H.mike and I don't often agree on much because we are 180 degrees apart politically, I think, but I try to stay away from those discussions and I think he does as well. I actually was writing my post when he posted his; so when I posted mine, I had not seen his.

With that out of the way, to comment on the loss in a cyclone, it depends.. A true cyclone depends on pressure drop to separate particulate from the air stream. The higher the pressure drop, the better it works. In a foundry grinding operation where I had to meet EPA requirements I had to have 9" of pressure drop to get the fine silica out of the flow. Metal dust was not the problem, silica was. In a melting furnace the pressure drop to get very fine metal oxides (smoke) out of the flow was well over 26"; so high it was more economical to use bag filters instead of a cyclone. In the foundry pattern shop I only had to have 3 1/2" drop to capture the typical wood dust.

Pressure drop in a system comes from many sources. The first is inlet loss. A plain pipe sticking into a dust stream will have over 2" of loss just because of its shape. Add a flange to the pipe and the loss is reduced by 50%. Taper the connection between the pipe and the box and roll the taper into the plane of the box wall and you get that loss down to about 1/4". Then there are turns and straight runs to be added. All the various elements will add a percentage of loss. The more elements, the more loss.

Going through a drop out box will add at least one more inlet loss to the system. I usually figure about 1 to 1 1/2". This compared to any cyclone worth doing is going to be around 3 to 4" .


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## DavidNJ

The cabinet of a table saw looks like a source for a significant pressure drop…restricted inlets to the cabinet and the outlet seems to be a very primitive round hole in the side of the cabinet. I'm trying to figure how much of the drop is there.

The ratings from the manufacturers are pre-cyclone inlet…so the cyclone loss should be accounted for in those numbers. Grizzly rates their 2hp canister unit at 1700cfm (no pressure/flow graph) and the unit with a cyclone at 1350cfm, presumably reflecting the drop across the cyclone and inline with your 4" of drop estimate.

I noticed that Torit is using baghouse solutions for most of the commercial woodworking applications on their website:http://www2.donaldson.com/torit/en-us/pages/applications/woodworking.aspx. However, don't all of those systems have automated cleaning with pressurized air? Isn't that a significant difference from hobbyist shops? This is a picture of a 6800cfrm school woodshop system.










The pressure drop across the table saw, a planer/jointer, and a sanding table would seem to be an important criteria for estimating the capacity needed in hobbyist shop.


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## b2rtch

This is what I did with mine and a Thien separator in the trash can. 
It works very well for a moderate price.


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## pintodeluxe

maybe this helps

Bert, that is a nice setup. I like that it is all on a cart.


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## Manitario

As others have already pointed out, there is a ton of information, stats, opinions, designs, reviews etc. on the web with regard to dust collection. At some point in time I think that all of us as woodworkers ponder what we can do to improve DC in our shops, either for health reasons, perceived health reasons, or just to keep the shop clean. 
I started off with a shop vac (mostly used to suck up the piles of sawdust after I'd been ww), then upgraded to a 1.5hp DC with a 1 micron canister, again, mostly to keep the piles of sawdust from accumulating in the shop. It did do a good job at collecting sawdust, but as I increased the amount of woodworking I was doing I started to develop a chronic cough. This led me to start exploring my options for improving the DC in my shop. I read all the articles in ww magazines that I could find, as well as the various posts on LJ's about DC. I came across Bill Pentz's site and read it through and through. More or less, several things seemed in common on all the sites; 
1) CFM ratings are useless unless you compare them to static pressure
2) The advantage of cyclone DC's is that you don't get dust clogging the filters (with the resulting loss of airflow)
3) There is a big difference between fine dust collection and visible sawdust collection. One will keep your shop looking cleaner, one will improve the air quality in the shop.
4) Adequate fine dust collection requires minimum CFM airflow at each machine (this is where the CFM vs. static pressure curves comes in handy).
I went with a Clearvue cyclone with a 5HP motor; the airflow curve was the best out of all the different manufactures I looked at, however, Penn State Industries was comparable. I no longer have my chronic cough, and I don't have to work through a cloud of dust, even with my mitre saw, which was a terrible dust producer previously. 
As you've seen already from the responses to your topic, you'll get a lot of different opinions…my 2 cents is to advise you to read as much as you can on the ww sites, LJ's, and Bill Pentz's site. Then think about what you want a DC for; fine dust or to keep your shop clean?


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## lj61673

*"That leads one to question whether or not a cyclone really isn't just an expensive toy or if it really is better than a single stage dust collection system. I think the jury is still out on that. There hasn't been a test that has given conclusive evidence that anything is actually improved."*

This is a good question. The short answer is NO, dust collection is not improved. The only benefit is that the filter media, i.e. Wynn cartridge, can go longer periods of time before it needs to be cleaned. That's the only benefit of a cyclone separator. (that and it helps prevent impeller damage by keeping large chips from coming in contact with the impeller.) So indirectly dust collection is improved in so much as the rate of airflow stays at a higher level for a longer time.


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## b2rtch

pintodeluxe, thank you . It took me just few hours to build.


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## b2rtch

DavidNJ, " 
However, don't all of those systems have automated cleaning with pressurized air?" 
the dust collector that we use at work has automated compressed air pulse the clean the bags. 
The bags themselves are a mess and nightmare to clean.


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## DavidNJ

lj, you are absolutely correct, all the cyclone does is keep the filter clean. However, that is precisely what is needed. A filter capable of stopping 0.2 micron particles can easily be clogged with bigger ones. A filter solution without automated frequent cleaning becomes clogged and loses its capacity. The key to the cyclone is that is allows that 0.2 micron filter to work.

crank49 brought up the issue of VOCs from paint, stain, finishes, glues, and some woods. None of the systems we discussed have VOC filters. Charcoal can be one form of VOC filter, but better ones use a UV activated catalyst. Are any woodworking specific VOC filters?

Another question: why aren't electrostatic precipitators used in woodshops? They should be effective for the dust that leaves a cyclone.


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## crank49

ESPs I have experience with always had a problem with spontaneous combustion.
Get a little buildup on the grids, an arc flashes across, and bingo, you own a $10,000 VOC incinerator; for about 15 minutes, before the system melt down.

We used to have one on the oil quench system in heat treating. Replaced the guts about 5 times before we just gave up.

Admittedly, my experience was with collecting oil smoke, but wood dust is combustible also. I wouldn't trust one in that application.


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## HorizontalMike

David: "...HorizontalMike, how well does your trashcan separator work? Which one did you use? Grizzly has one that they charge $35 for. Sounds like an intelligent system buildup…."

I have BOTH the DIY Thien and the Grizzly separator. I dedicated the Grizzly separator w/can to my miter saw with a 16gal shopvac. Works great, especially with a hepa filter. The DIY feeds the TS, BS Jointer, Router table extension with a rotating 10ft section of 4in flex tube. And a 20ft flex tube to the planer. All fed one at a time by rotating the hose to machine in use.

IMO, both work equally well, though when the Grizzly plastic separator is full it will dump more rapidly into the main collection bag, where as the DIY Thien separator continues to keep most of the chips separated and you just start to see the overflow start with much less fortitude and speed. In other words, with the DIY you can determine when to empty the can more quickly.

This usually means that you can empty the can ONLY, without always having to empty the DC bag as well. While that may be a minor point, it does save time and you do not have to empty the DC bag as often, maybe every 3-5th time, whatever you are comfortable with.


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## BLarge

david, you could get by with just a shop vac- the dust collectors are best when you plane/ joint alot of lumber..

i have a small shop vac, dedicated on:

router table
band saw
mitre saw
sanders

my grizzly DC with canister on:

Table Saw
Jointer
Planer

I have little to no chips on any of my bigger machines, and the shop vacs turn by switch on the machines theyre hooked to…

I would also get a air filtration unit…. thats thing keep my shop free of dust….


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## BurtC

Suggest getting an air filtration unit to complement the dust collector. I have the Jet AFS1000B and it works very well. FYI - a standard size 12×24x1 furnace filter can be used as the pre-filter.


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## DavidNJ

Bert, the standard hobbyist dust collector has been with a bag, maybe a cartridge, but without the automatic filter cleaning process your production shop uses. The cyclones are the only systems in the hobbyist dust collection product space that have a mechanism for filter maintenance.

Burt, what dust collector do you use in conjunction with your air filter? Do you have a cartridge? A nanofilter? A cyclone? Did you consider just putting a fan in front of a fine capture household filter like the high end 3M model, may in conjunction with their carbon filter for VOCs?



















Michael (crank49), if we used an ESP after a cyclone it should capture fine particles without a fire hazard. In commercial systems, it seems baghouse solutions dominate woodworking and finer particle capture isn't an issue. But those systems are located outside. For a home system that exhausts inside that fine particle capture could be useful.

The are lots of ESPs that are sold for residential use. Like may woodshop dust collectors, failure to perform frequent and adequate cleanings renders them ineffective. However, one could be used to create an ESP for home woodshop use.

Do we have a solution for VOCs in a home woodworking shop?


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## b2rtch

"Do we have a solution for VOCs in a home woodworking shop?" 
Personally I do not see that as an issue as when I spray the quantity of VOC I release is minimum, for a professional that could be different. 
My big issue right now is fine dust capture,. 
I am becoming more and more allergic to dust. 
When I step in my shop in the morning after a full night for the dust to settle down I still sneeze and caught. 
I need to do something about this issue very soon.
I am thinking about replacing my setup with a real cyclone provably Grizzly and make an install a big air filter. We have 7 big huge HEPA filters at work ( $700/piece) that we do not use but my boss will not let me have them


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## DavidNJ

My wife is sensitive to anything I paint. I have an HVLP sprayer I bought over 12 years ago. However, the drying paint emits VOCs. I think there are some paints that are lower VOC. My wife's nose is very sensitive, I lost my sense of smell about 7 years ago.

You can solve your dust capture issue, the questions are cost and local zoning. Ideally, put a significant cyclone-the Penn State Tempest S, the Grizzly G0440/G0441, Oneida V-Series or Super Gorilla, ClearVue Cyclone-outside in its own shed. For each tool ensure both the tool and hood are sufficient to capture the dust generated. Then back it up MERV 15+ filter running through a fan in the shop.

Once you put the dust collector back in the shop (The Donaldson Torit site has no commercial dust collectors in the shop) you need to have a filter capable of MERV15+, a cyclone strong enough to pull nearly everything, and motor/impeller powerful enough to drive it. This is modified HF vs. ClearVue decision is not unlike the Grizzly 1023RL vs SawStop 3hp PCS decision: both work, one provides greater safety at much higher cost.

The race car in the picture is an example. It had a bunch of safety stuff not common when it was added: collapsible steering column, extra 10lb extinguisher with thermal switch next to the fuel cell, a pressure switch set to cut the engine electrics when brake line pressure exceeded a threshold (set to 900lb, 600-650 was normal max range), the driver suit was a PBI with a very high TPP and protective underwear and baliclava were always worn (which is very hot in a stock car on a summer evening), I was using a HANS device when they were still difficult to get.

A few of those were prompted after a 2001 T-bone accident. In woodworking, unless there are fingers on the floor, the cause and effect aren't as clear.










Everything has a cost performance tradeoff. Short of spending $2500 for dust collection, it seems we are finding what the best middle ground is. For some people cost is the dominate factor. For other performance. Most of us are some place in between.

For me, the low end is probably the Grizzly 703P or PSI Tempest. I would add a cyclone and canister to the HF, raising the price to over $540. The 703P at $840 and the Tempest for $120 more offer advantages and simplicity worth the difference. Both solutions are one machine at a time with a short hose. For the table saw, that would include a flexible hose at least 12' long.

Any of the Oneidas and ClearVue would be over $1500…and approaching $2000. The Grizzly 2hp and the PSI Tempest S would both be about $1200-1300 when the dust settled (pun intended). Either should be able to handle one large machine over an arbitrary fixed ductwork of 20-50 feet. Neither specs their filters with a MERV rating and it currently isn't a nano filter.

Oneida specs their filters as MERV 15 or MERV 16, some as HEPA. ClearVue specs their standard filter as MERV 10 and has a $100 upgrade to MERV 15: Filter Efficiency: 99.99% at .5 micron (MERV 10)
Filter Upgrade: NANO - 99.999% at .5 micron (MERV 15). Presumably the PSI and Grizzly filters are MERV10 range. Those are all particle size capture numbers. They require some mechanism (e.g. a good cyclone) to keep the filter clean. And they do nothing for VOCs.

A list of the MERV standards: http://www.oneida-air.com/PDF/merv.pdf


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## DavidNJ

A correction…although it doesn't say it online, a brochure Penn State e-mailed me says the Tempest S has a MERV 15 filter.

Is anyone aware of a situation where a high powered system with a cyclone working on only one machine has so much back pressure the suction in the cyclone captures the particles that have settled out?


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## DavidNJ

Has anyone used the Oneida Super Dust Deputy and retrofit HEPA filter am HF or inexpensive Grizzly?


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## b2rtch

So what it the conclusion of all these posts?
Would a new Grizzly cyclone really improve the dust collection and especially the fine dust? 
Or would a air cleaner be better?
I am sure that someone is going to tell me that I need both.


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## teejk

Bert…from what I've read (I am still in a state of "no action"...happy to see that I am not alone in my confusion), sounds like the plan is to collect as much as possible at the source. the air cleaner comes into play for the stuff you miss that becomes airborne.

I'm going to start with the first step and probably add the second step. I have radiant in-floor heat and I'm positive it creates goofy air currents that send the fine dust everywhere. Shop is 30'x40' I have relocated all the tools to work in about a 15'x 20' area but still find dust everywhere.


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## DavidNJ

While I still may not have the right answer, the threads have been very helpful in clarifying the issue.

First, the objective. There are 2 parts. The 1st is to collect wood chips and visible sawdust to keep the shop clean and to not be wearing it at the woodworking. The 2nd is to collect fine dust from wood and wood products (such as MDF) that can be to size of bacteria or virus. That is critical to maintaining your health.

Second, commercial wood shops are significantly different than most home and some small commercial shops. These shops have their extraction systems outdoors with the makeup air provision that is significant in size. It appears that a filter system (called a baghouse system) is overwhelmingly preferred system for these commercial operations. They differ from the typical home dust collectors that use filters and having an automated system to continuously clean the filter.

Third, the only way to filter the fine particles is with a filter. The industry specifications for fine filtration are usually MERV or HEPA. For fine filtration the MERV filtration would have to be 15 or greater. The HEPA filters would be 16 or greater.

Fourth, the objective of using the cyclone is to protect the filter when no other mechanism is available to keep it clean. An effective cyclone will trap virtually all visible and most invisible particles. As long as it meets this objective the nuances of one design against the other are not important. It is like bench racing at a bar over which car is quicker; it only matters on the racetrack and then what might seem fastest on the spec sheet may not be best. And even then, the differences may be insignificant.

Fifth, and a home shop where only one tool will be used at a time the system needs to provide the needed airflow tool given the restrictions of getting her into and its dust hood and the ductwork leading from the tool to dust collector. I'm not clear on why having too much airflow will do. My guess is it will increase the vacuum in the ductwork and tool and possibly suck the sawdust out of the cyclone in its collection bin.

Sixth, the combination of a motor and impeller need to create the correct airflow through the system for the fifth objective. If they don't create enough, the system won't function adequately. If they create too much, the system may also not function as previously discussed.

Seventh, most of us have no tools to effectively measure air quality, in this case specifically particulates suspended in the air. Another discussion, air quality may also include CO2 and VOCs. So for nearly all of us we are just guessing.

So the starting point has to be to filter. Do not adversely impact the woodworkers health, that filter should be a MERV 15 or greater or HEPA filter. The larger the filter the less airflow restrictions it will create an no longer it will last between cleanings.

The cyclone needs to be effective for the volume of airflow and size of particles being captured. The cyclone actually doesn't care about volume, it cares about the velocity. I told the correct velocity is in the 3500 - 4000 feet/minute range. The equations the efficiency of the cyclone are function of the density and size of the particles, the density and viscosity of the suspending medium (in this case air with minimal compression), and the dimensions of the cyclone.

It would appear most of the cyclones are an acceptable range. Some are a little better than others and some undoubtedly have a lower pressure drop than others but we have no measurements to determine that. The relative pressure drop in the cyclone would only really be an issue if we were purchasing the cyclone independently of the motor/impeller. Except for some home built systems we aren't; instead were buying complete systems.

The smaller cyclonic systems - the 2hp/13.5in Grizzly 703P, the Penn State 2hp/12" Tempest, the Oneida 2 hp V-System - appear to be designed to be moved near the tool being used and connected directly with a short flexible duct. In that case they appear to be able to develop sufficient airflow and velocity to operate. Note that not all of these models come with a MERV 15 or HEPA filter.

The next step up appears able to handle a single (and in some cases two) tools in a modicum of ductwork connecting to the them. While I don't have definitive numbers, scrounging through the various ductwork design guides I'm guessing the back pressure through the tool to the dust collector probably 5 to 7 in/H20. To get the desired cyclone inlet velocity with a 6 inch duct that would be 650 - 800 CFM and with a 5 inch duct it would be 475 - 550 CFM. Both numbers are in the range of what the duct design guides specify for a tablesaw.

As long as they have appropriate filter and are collecting all of the dust any of the systems - whether a modified harbor freight, a home built wood cyclone, a ClearVue, or Oneida Pro-series - would be adequate.

When buying a complete system cost is an issue. I am waiting to hear back from Grizzly about the availability of their systems with nanofilters. The Oneida and ClearVue systems are nice, but also among the most expensive. In my shop, I won't be able to easily wheel around the dust collector, so the smallest systems are probably not viable. That would leave the 2hp/14" Penn State 1425 Tempest S, probably with a muffler. If the airflow is too great, I could create an additional inlet port with an automotive air filter for noise attenuation and a blast gate for volume control. If the Grizzly did come with the nanofilter, the 2hp/12.5" G0443 may be the most cost effective solution.


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## crank49

I'm begening to wonder just how confused the OP really was/is. A lot of good suggestions have been made but in every instance it seems there is a response from the OP trying to indicate he knows more about the subject than the respondent. Perhaps he has a "paralysis by analysis" problem, but I don't think there is a lack of knowledge.

David, I have, as well as many others, made specefic suggestion to get you going and fix the problem.

1. Basic dust collection.

2. Modify for finer partical capture.

3. Modify for pre- fan/filter dropout of heavy particals.

4. Exhaust outside with a heat exchange on make-up air.

5. Activated carbon filters on a shop air filter.

6. I will add one more note here: There is no regenerative VOC incinerator that I know of available for the home market but send me $50,000 and I will design you one.


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## DavidNJ

Everything I wrote I learned since I created the thread 6 days ago.

Crank, your first 3 items are the same as my points. The difference is when you piecemeal it together you come up with in a whisker of a complete system. It is unclear how effective the HF DC is with a nano filter and effective dropout…or if a non-cyclonic dropout is sufficient to maintain the efficacy of a nano-filter.

I have nothing against HF…I have lots of HF stuff (including a $50 plunge router light enough for my wife to use and an $80 10" sliding miter saw I used this morning). My skepticism is whether the rated 2hp (knottscott says 1.6hp actual) with a 10.75" impeller has a enough juice to drive an effective separator and nanofilter the size used in those systems. You would need a meter to measure…has anyone done that?

On item 4, and this I did research for an issue with pseudo-commercial range hoods used in high end residential kitchens, there is no viable residential makeup air solution. Anything you do will make the having everyone get a ClearVue seem the low cost route.

On item 5, there are a couple of systems that have VOC catalysts. Genesis (who OEMs VOC filters to Trane's commercial division) had a residential sized unit for a reasonable price (still over $1k, but reasonable for that type of filter). The wood shop filters I've seen online from Grizzly, Delta, etc. don't have any VOC provision. A charcoal filter may help.

http://www.genesisair.com/CommercialInductPCOSystems.htm

Note: an issue in residential systems is having enough fan on/recirculation time when heating and cooling isn't required at maximum levels. The shop filters solve this my running continuously. Like residential filters, they work at a level to catch the fine particles generated by woodworking. Residential HEPA filters are run as bypass devices.

VOC's are an issue in any sealed space and are more important in today's better insulated buildings. CO2 used to be just a commercial building issue because of the higher occupancy density. Now they are also a residential issue in newer buildings.

Just to provide substance to this issue: Wood dust and sino-nasal cancer: pooled reanalysis of twelve case-control studies

Earlier Loren posted this link: Measuring dust with a Dylos air quality monitor


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## HorizontalMike

crank49: "...Perhaps he has a "paralysis by analysis" problem, but I don't think there is a lack of knowledge…."

We have a Bingo! *;-)*


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## teejk

for home shops without DC, I think it comes down to "how clean"? we have been surrounded by dust forever so even a cheap solution is better than none (e.g. in my case no known problems other than a bad back from trying to keep my floor and surfaces clean).

the problem I have with relying on filters is that they don't take long to clog up and the process of cleaning them seems to drop a pile of sawdust everywhere. like 4 steps forward, 1 step back.


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## bbc557ci

I guess it boils down to ….. How clean you want or need your shop depends on how much $$ you spend. My theory for clean air in my basement shop is, as humble and inexpensive as it may be is, saw dust/debris into a Thein, then to the HF DC, then I plan/hope to pipe it ouside instead of into a bag or filter.

Go outside on a breezy day and your breathing in dust, pollen, mold spores….all kinds of crap. And if you work or live in an area where there's any kind of traffic, then you're breathing in vehicle exhaust.


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## DavidNJ

One week (or even one month) for a $500-to-$2000 purchase that you will live with for 10-to-20 years and can effect your health and the health of everyone who lives in your house is not "paralysis by analysis".

bbc, the wood dust is different from normal environmental issues, and even those are a problem in enclosed spaces. Note that furnace filters are advertised to mitigate them.

teejk, it is health issue. If the dust were harmless and didn't cause illness or coughing we wouldn't care past a 30 micron HF DC out of the box. When designing your system work backwards…starting with the MERV15+ nanofilter. If you could keep that filter clean, you wouldn't need any cyclone or other drop out box. The cyclone or drop out box is the way to keep it clean. The cyclone is preferred because it causes a lower pressure drop (I think crank had some numbers) and is more effective.


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## b2rtch

bbc557ci, I do not mind the dust on my tools as much as dust in my lungs.
The dust in my lungs is what really worries me and I am not willing to wear a respirator every time I work in my shop.


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## Redoak49

Everyone has to decide for themselves how important dust collection will be. I started with a Jet 1.5 hp with a canister and added the vortex gadget. Then, I went big with a large cyclone unit. As I get older dust collection is getting more important.

If I have dust on my tools and things in my shoop, then I am breathing it.


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## b2rtch

Every shop needs an effective dust collection and a air cleaner.
My air cleaner makes a huge difference.


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## HorizontalMike

> Every shop needs an effective dust collection and a air cleaner.
> My air cleaner makes a huge difference.
> - b2rtch


You bet! Thanks to Bert, I now have built two air filtration units, to supplement my HF-DC w/cyclone. Wow, what a difference these things make. I use FPR 2, 5, 7, 10 filters to catch nearly everything. I used to think that the Wynn filter on my HF-DC was enough, but once I started using these air filtration units, my nose could immediately tell the difference.




























And after 18 months use, I only replaced the #2, #5, and the #7FPR filters. My 4in. wide FPR10 didn't even look dirty at all:


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## controlfreak

My setup is a large shop vac with a rockler cyclone mounted on top to save space. The cyclone catches most debris and then goes to a bag. After the bag is another pleated filter. With my undersized shop I often wheel out my miter saw and table saw outside but still use the shop vac to keep the yard clean. I still get fine dust but I don't think it is what gets passed through the shop vac. It is probably from things like routing and the occasional times I forget to turn it on. I may build a box fan filter for both air movement and to get away from my fan sitting on the floor that stirs up too much dust.


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## Brawler

If you think this is all confusing just wait until you try using fittings, blast gates, and PVC tubing, you are in for a treat.


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## b2rtch

Hi Horizontal Mike, than you for giving me the credit, I appreciate.


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## kelvancra

On canisters versus bags, I have two three horse, "four bag" collectors. One has after market one micron bags and the other one micron cans. You WILL notice the difference at, for example, the tip of the four inch vacuum wand - the cans allow more air movement.

On units with the pan in the center, like the photo above, if you do not shake the entire unit, after knocking the dust off the upper bag/cartridge, much of it will rest on that pan and be drawn right back up into the filter the next time it's started. It will seem like you did not clean the filters, if you don't shake the unit and knock everything into the lower bag.

One of my units has the Super Dust Deputy. Because of that, I only have to empty the bag on the collection every two hundred years, giver or take a number of years. I like it's performance enough I'll buy another for the other four bag unit.

And additional advantage of the SDD or any cyclone is, only dust moves past the impellers and even that is greatly reduced. As such, the impellers don't take a beating, and tools and glasses that try to commit suicide survive the spin out of the cyclone, where they would not survive the impellers.

I have a Dust Deputy on my shop vac. From that, I'm running a twenty foot hose. My random orbit sawdust makers don't kick out much of anything with it attached.

I replace all bottom bags, which are 30-50 micron dust pumps, with plastic bags and rely only on the upper filters for air transfer.

I replace every stock bag with finer micron filtering after market cans or bags.

I use the foam you put between camper shells and pickup beds to boost the seal between bags and the metal of the collectors.


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## MrRon

> lj, you are absolutely correct, all the cyclone does is keep the filter clean. However, that is precisely what is needed. A filter capable of stopping 0.2 micron particles can easily be clogged with bigger ones. A filter solution without automated frequent cleaning becomes clogged and loses its capacity. The key to the cyclone is that is allows that 0.2 micron filter to work.
> 
> Another question: why aren t electrostatic precipitators used in woodshops? They should be effective for the dust that leaves a cyclone.
> 
> - DavidNJ


I think the large amount of dust that is created would easily overcome any electrostatic precipitator.


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## farmfromkansas

I really did not see a list of equipment you have, but for my shop, started with a 2hp cyclone, found it to be lacking and replaced it with a 3hp long cone cyclone. Tried dumping the exhaust outside, and found it to be a huge improvement, but for my wide belt sander, would have been better to have gone with a 5hp clearvue. Sanding dust is the hardest dust to get with your dust collector, planer is easiest. I use rough sawn lumber, so joint and plane all the lumber for my projects. Only plywood is drawer bottoms, and backs.


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