# Pencils...I do a lot of layout; furniture building. What Pencil brand do u use?



## steve6678 (Oct 4, 2012)

Ha…
I buy the Mechanicals from the dollar store but they break off too easy and don't load lead.
I like a wooden Pencil, but haven't found one I felt comfortable and easy/friendly to hold and sharpen…
What'ya use my friends?


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## tomd (Jan 29, 2008)

I have no preference for one brand of pencils, but I do keep a good electric pencil sharpener in my shop.


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## bruc101 (Sep 13, 2008)

Drafting pencils


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## PurpLev (May 30, 2008)

I use 0.5 mechanical pencil from LeeValley with HB lead


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

.7mm mechanical pencils. I buy cheap disposables now.
The leads hold up better than .5mm (which is Incra compatible).

If I used Incra I'd suck it up and go to .5mm.

You get to know a pencil lead's characteristics and how
it marks in relation to a straight edge… a little different
from a hollow ground marking knife but consistent 
if you hold the pencil the same always. This may
seem silly, but it's a controllable factor in craftsmanship
that you can get managed or leave unmanaged and
I prefer to have it managed and consistent.

What you use is less important than using the same
thing all the time. Drafting pencils have tough leads
and the special sharpeners do a better job than
regular pencil sharpeners. I like the mechanicals
with the .7mm leads but the most important thing 
to me is to have a consistent line and the ability to
register the pencil point reliably against an edge.


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## steve6678 (Oct 4, 2012)

Doesn't the tip break easily?
I like to push button lead out, but when it runs out I can't get another to go in that sum-bitch


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## LeeBarker (Aug 6, 2010)

Dixon Ticonderoga 2.5. Buy them by the dozen. Nothing else comes close to the quality for the price.

110v sharpener.

Kindly,

Lee


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## steve6678 (Oct 4, 2012)

@Loren - I like Mechanicals, but NEVER sharpened one. I too believe the pencil we use should be consistent.

@Lee - Where do you get em'? never heard of them. you mean use an electric sharpener?


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

I'm like Lee. Wooden pencils and an electric sharpener. Buy them like 6 dozen at a time and sharpen up a dozen at a time. Easy and cheap to keep all around the shop and in my apron. Lay out is a handfull on the bench and the sharpener next to it.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

Drafting pencils are different from the mechanicals
you are probably familiar with. The leads are about
3/32" thick and you use a special sharpener to 
make points on them. I have the stuff but never
used it for woodworking.


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

Loren, I have a lot of the type you are talking about(lead holders??) I used them when I sketched isometrics for piping systems. I found they really don't suit my needs in the wood shop. Just MHO. I tried a lot of different leads to no avail.


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## steve6678 (Oct 4, 2012)

I was sharpening my own pencils, but found out the lead wearing down gave me a different scribe line, a bit-off


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## steve6678 (Oct 4, 2012)

I'm a sophomore in Art School; Fine Arts/part-time BFA. I use many different pencils in scales, there are a lot of steps in grades to pencil density. I also use mech. pencils, but have not found a decent survivor for woodworking yet


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## NiteWalker (May 7, 2011)

These pencils, this sharpener.
Match made in heaven. 

They're sharp enough for me and stay that way. I've learned to keep my layout lines single and light; there's no need to go across the ruler 3+ times to make the line dark enough. Once is enough. Same for tick marks; a single tick is enough.


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## steve6678 (Oct 4, 2012)

Nice!
Black Warriors, I already like them.
Thanks, NiteWalker


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## LeeBarker (Aug 6, 2010)

Steve:

Here for instance.

For my hands, #2 are too soft and break too easily while #3 don't make a dark enough line. 2.5! The erasers stay in the ferrule! The yellow is the color of daffodils in the spring! The relationship of the yellow to the green on the ferrule is The Golden Mean! This pencil will make your work better, your days shorter, your production remarkable, your lunch fresher, your socks softer, not to mention the unending parade of invitations to proms and barbecues.

Your posture will improve. Your hair will begin, slightly, to curl. Your tires will rotate themselves. Dandelions will thrive, but only next door. Your cat will retrieve a frisbee upon command. You'll lose just enough weight that you'll be able to slip into the ol' flat front khakis that still hang way to the left side of your closet. Your doctor will call with surprise news about your cholesterol, which is no longer an item of her concern.

Your mortgage rate will drop of its own free will. Sears will not only deliver but also assemble. You'll get a Festool of your own, and it will come with its own vacuum cleaner at no extra charge. Your mountain bike will have yet another gear.

You'll say "yes, of course" when your grandchildren ask if you'll read Sherlock Holmes to them. Your chisels will never dull. Masking tape will keep coming off the roll without a diagonal tear. No more Tums. The door to the garage doesn't stick anymore. Nor squeak. You sound more Pavarotti in the shower than Luciano himselfi.

Your S'Mores will be the best and your marshmallows will never scorch. Boards that warp? They must be going to everyone else, because you haven't seen one in months. That old broom in the 5th wheel? It was used in the second Harry Potter movie.

Never again will you say, "The fishing was good, but the catching was lousy."

And all because you said "yes" to the Dixon Ticonderoga 2.5. Gamechanger. Lifechanger. The Write Stuff.

Buy them. Now.

Kindly,

Lee


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## LeeJ (Jul 4, 2007)

I use the same pencil as Sharon, (PurpLev), for rough woodworking, as well as on construction projects, due to it's ability to take a beating, and hold a point.

For more information on marking, I have a page on my woodoworking site:

http://prowoodworkingtips.com/Marking_Tools.html

Lee


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

Barker…you are a true gem (g)


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## muleskinner (Sep 24, 2011)

Lee Barker, do you use the 'scary sharp' method on those yellow gems? Is 2000 grit fine enough for the final passes? Have a recommendation for a sharpening jig? What angle provides the best results? Or is it better for a beginner like me to just send them out and have a professional handle it?


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## Gene01 (Jan 5, 2009)

*Lee and Muleskinner,*
I never knew a discussion on pencils could be so much fun.
You guys crack me up.


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## brunob (Dec 26, 2006)

A hand sharpener on the wall. Buy #2's from staples.


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## Wdwerker (Apr 14, 2012)

General Pencils still makes decent wood pencils in the USA . I get the ones called Semi Hex from pencils.com 
A company from Germany called "KUM" makes a little sharpener with replaceable blades. Any art supply store has them.
I have also started using Pentel side click .07 mm mechanical pencils. Get the softer leads because they mark easier ,you have to learn to use a gentle pressure. 
Yea the lead breaks all the time, but click and keep going is faster than stop and sharpen. Watch out for the little pieces of broken lead. If it is left on your bench it marks the back side of any wood that gets put over it.


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## Wdwerker (Apr 14, 2012)

I used to used the Black Warriors and the Ticonderogas but the quality has declined since they moved production to China and Mexico. Points were breaking constantly, erasers pop out or break off. Called the company to complain and they sent me 6 dozen free pencils. I had the same problems with those.
I got a new wall mounted sharpener, didn't help.
I dug out old pencils from office drawers and compared them side by side. Much less breakage and erasers stayed put.
Artist supply stores may have the General Semi Hex 2 1/2 but they are a bit more expensive.


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## Dusty56 (Apr 20, 2008)

Good post …I like a pencil with a quality eraser on it ! : )
Happy Thanksgiving , everyone !!


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## Dal300 (Aug 4, 2011)

Like Lee I use Dixon Ticonderoga 2.5 and have since I was a kid in school.

I also have a number of mechanical pencils, my favorites are the Pentel .09 and the Zebra M-301 .05. Both are great if you don't buy cheap leads.

The problem with the Zebra is the eraser is too small and almost impossible to find a replacement for.


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

Most eloquently stated Mr. Lee, thanks for laugh.










With a lead holder you can pick the lead that suits you best.
Staedtler works well and I can shape the lead as needed with
sandpaper.

Happy Thanksgiving everyone!


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

@Nitewalker - I concur on the pencils, but they don't make those sharpeners like they used to. I've gone through five of those Xacto sharpeners in 3 years as a school teacher. They keep replacing them with the same one!

As for myself, I need sharp tips because I use Incra rulers a lot. I have .5 mm mechanicals and my old drafting mechanical pencils (with its little barrel shaped rotary sharpener). They work fine, but they break too easily, especially on the porous oak and walnut woods that I tend to use mostly. I haven't tried using some of the softer leads, however, so this thread has inspired me to do that.

Of course I also have regular #2 pencils, but they are used primarily for rough marking up wood for planning since I'm not often on top of keeping them sharp…but a good sharpener should be on my wish list.

I find myself using Pentel Stinger felt-tipped pens quite often. They are small enough to squeeze into the holes of my Incra rulers and they make clear marks on all types of wood.

I also use marking gauges, Xacto knife, box-cutters, and even Sharpies and map colors for various things.


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## NiteWalker (May 7, 2011)

Jay, what's been the problem with the sharpeners at school?
I have two, one upstairs and one in the shop. They've been fine for me but I don't have a lot of brats coming through and destroying things either. ;-p


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## derosa (Aug 21, 2010)

Love the stadler, when I'm doing drafting I have an old stadler like above with #2.5 lead and a pencil sharpener that you stick the pencil in and rotate the pencil in a clockwise motion, lead comes out extra pointy every time. Good for when fine lines matter. For general woodworking I find the #2 clickables are fine. Just pull out the eraser and drop more lead in. Key is to only have like a 1/16 of an inch sticking out and the lead won't break.


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## LeeBarker (Aug 6, 2010)

@muleskinner:

Though sharpening preferences vary
From Tormek to water to Scary
For pencil acuity
In perpetuity
What you need is a shop pencil fairy.

They visit as midnight's approaching
Apprentices, with journeymen coaching
They perch on small stools
And with miniature tools
Tackle the points that need broaching.

With scorps and drawknives and scrapers 
(no routers or sanders or shapers)
Inspired by Gepetto
They shape the stiletto
Resulting in cone-perfect tapers.

When the crew chief pronounces "Perfection!"
There's sweeping and dusting, inspection.
Now done with the fixin' 
Of Lee's many Dixons
They fly in an astral direction.

Kindly,

Lee


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## muleskinner (Sep 24, 2011)

Mr. Barker, shop fairies or not, I doubt your pencils are ever as sharp as your wit. It appears you're a craftsman in multiple domains.


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## Rutager (Feb 4, 2012)

I really like the Paper Mate G-Force .5mm; can't seem to find them local, but Amazon carries them for a couple bucks each.

I also just bought, from Amazon also, a brand called Kuru Toga, also a .5mm, but with a cool auto- rotation feature that uses a clutch to turn the lead a little each time you apply or let off pressure, apparently to keep a sharp point rather than let the lead get a chisel profile, a bit pricey, over $10, but it was just too cool to not own!

Lastly, an Alvin Draft Matic no.DM05 that fits into the pencil holder of the Bridge City Tools CS-2 Centerscribe.

Best,
Rutager


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

I use the same type that *waho6o9* uses; you can sharpen them to a point or chisel point to suit your needs at the time and you can uses any hardness and/or color!

I have a number of lead holders left over from my drafting days along with a couple of the rotary pointing tools (sharpeners for those not familiar with old drafting tools, before CAD)!

*Lee, love your poem!*


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## racerglen (Oct 15, 2010)

Kindly, I love the Barker's bite..
Great stuff Lee..

I'm still using pencils, HB, that my Mom got me in a promotional deal
when I was in junior high, complete with my name in gold..
But I also have a small arsenal of others, from mechanical to carpenters and coloring types that work.
I use a Staedler hand held sharpener to get the point across as well as sandpaper and the odd knife blade..oops, forgot the stationary belt sander, that gets called on by times as well.
;-)

.


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

@NW - I don't know why the kids are so hard on them. Two of them have had the entire cutter come off. Another two couldn't sharpen pencils all around evenly. And another one broke somehow at its casing. They really are flimsy feeling. I used to remember they were built like little tanks, but now they aren't.

I'm sure it's just a matter of the classroom environment. I might take a broken one home with me someday and see if I can make it work in the shop.


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

Awesome poem, Lee! Very creative and limericky!


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## racerglen (Oct 15, 2010)

Jay, I do have an old "Giant" brand crank sharpener at the side of the shop
It was my wife's grandfathers, and once in a while I will use it, still worksfine..2nd hand store shopping 
might be an answer ?


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## jusfine (May 22, 2010)

Waho609, you do know with the Staedtler pencils (I use the same ones), the sharpener is in the silver end (where the eraser isn't), right?

Pull it out, sharpen and replace. I have never had to use anything else to sharpen mine.

I have also used mine for years. Found the cheapest place to buy them and the lead is Staples…


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## mloy365 (Oct 30, 2009)

Dixon Ticonderoga #2. Boston hand crank sharpeners. Also use the Ticonderoga #2 beginner pencils.


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

Thank you Randy for the friendly advice. I did not know that.
Excellent results my friend. LOL


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## MontanaBob (Jan 19, 2011)

drafting pencils….sharpen with sandpaper….easy, fast, sharp…


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## dontrushme (Jul 23, 2012)

I use both, a 0.5mm mechanical and wood pencils. As far as wood pencils. I was taught many years ago that f you roll the pencil as you male a line, the points stays sharper longer, and the line width stays more consistent.


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## jamesicus (Jan 11, 2011)

I also have used Staedtler pencils for many years both for Calligraphy and woodworking. I keep a supply of lead tubes (4H to 4B) handy at all times. Like other users here, I keep the points sharp using the integral sharpener.









​
James


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## jamesicus (Jan 11, 2011)

I Previously wrote:

"I also have used Staedtler pencils for many years both for Calligraphy and woodworking. I keep a supply of lead tubes (4H to 4B) handy at all times. Like other users here, I keep the points sharp using the integral sharpener. "

I also occasionally use sandpaper to sharpen the point to a chisel edge not only to produce very fine layout lines, but also to determine rough letterform construction and layout:










James


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## greg48 (Nov 7, 2010)

I gotta go with Lee. Although I don't think I could ever say it so eloquently. I'm tossing out all the 2's, 3's, and HB's, but I'm going to keep my trusty hand crank sharpener.


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## jusfine (May 22, 2010)

Nicely done James! Wish I could write that well…

Greg, I also use my old hand crank sharpener to sharpen dowels when the need arises, works great!


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## steve6678 (Oct 4, 2012)

I have been very impressed at how this thread has progressed.
I never would have thought a thread about pencils would attract so many comments.
Good stuff.
Although I am a woodworker by trade I am an artist also, a sophomore in Art School, fine Arts & Design, and I have many pencils.
I was curious what pencils my woodworker friends chose to use.
Thanks


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## derosa (Aug 21, 2010)

James, that's some pretty sweet work with the pencil.

I use the stadlers for this kind of thing, the lines need to be made fine and clear for the ink to trace. Actual scanned piece is over 30" long that is after shrinking it to a ratio of 20-1 from a drawing that was done at 20-1. It was this drawing that made me appreciate the metric system.


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## jamesicus (Jan 11, 2011)

Great Rev. Russ.

I also use my Staedtler's for informal sketching as here:










*Informal sketch of a generic wooden flat bed truck body produced in the late 1940s. Not to scale or proportion.*

I drew it from memory so the scale and proportions are undoubtedly off. Still, I think it is a pretty close approximation.

James


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## steve6678 (Oct 4, 2012)

Hmm.
I was curious what people used to draw a straight line against a rule, but this is cool too.


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## Grandpa (Jan 28, 2011)

I drafted for several years and have a lot of different pencils, lead chucks and leads on hand as well as pointers. My favorite is a Pentel that uses .9mm lead. it is available in all hardnesses or softnesses. If I want a fine line I might go to a .7 but seldom a .5mm diameter lead. If you can't get them to load you can put the lead in from the bottom.


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## steve6678 (Oct 4, 2012)

ha


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## JAAune (Jan 22, 2012)

I use Bic 0.7mm mechanical pencils. The leads stop breaking once you get the feel of using a light touch. Even if the lead does break, it takes two seconds to replenish it and that's a lot faster than walking across the shop to get to the sharpener.

I probably break the lead of my pencil three or four times per day if I'm working with wood that has deep pores so it's not an issue for me.

The only reason I use the disposable pencils is because lead refills for 0.7 are all sold in silly lengths of 3 inches or so. The last inch is unusable and it's annoying to have the leads dropping out of the pencil. Disposable pencils have leads as long as the pencil body.


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## MR_Cole (Jun 1, 2012)

get 2H pencils. More expensive but last longer. I almost never find myself sharpening them and they stay at a point


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## JohnnyB (Nov 10, 2011)

I like the Lee Valley wooden pencils in HB or B hardness. I have a manual sharpener mounted on the wall, just like in grammar school, and I still find it satisfying to turn that crank and sharpen a pencil to a nice point!


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## markswoodcraft (Aug 5, 2012)

regular 2h or hb pencils, but lee valley ones are the best(pricey though)


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## lumberjoe (Mar 30, 2012)

As others have mentioned Staedtler only. I still draft on paper, none of that silly sketch-up stuff. In the shop I use a mechanical I turned with a .7mm lead. It's super thin but I want it that way. I don't have to kick the straight edge back to account for the "pencil kerf". It snaps easy, but one you get used to it ..


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## thebigvise (Jun 17, 2010)

It sounds like I'm in the minority. I use a standard rectangular carpenter's pencil and a small hand-held sharpener. Of course, this is appropriate only for the first steps of milling rough lumber. My later steps use either #11 scalpel/hobby knife or a stop block, or both, for precision and final joinery cuts.


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

*Put a F lead into a holder and you can almost use it like a center punch!*


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## steve6678 (Oct 4, 2012)

Rockler Cabinet Makers pencil Pk.
$11
http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=11215&site=ROCKLER


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## Alexandre (May 26, 2012)

I use faber castell 6H pencil… Lasts pretty forever, but hard to see lol. Its almost done. I only have like 1 more left


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## pierce85 (May 21, 2011)

I still have a bunch of genuine - made in the U.S.A. - Dixon Ticonderogas that I use, with around 30 unsharpened pencils left in the box. I might just have to buy a gross of General's Semi-Hex No. 2.5s before they too get assimilated by a Multinational Borg Conglomerate.

Pencils are like clamps, right?


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## knockknock (Jun 13, 2012)

I'm still working out of a box of OfficeMax No 2 pencils my daughter gave me 10 years ago.


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## cranbrook2 (May 28, 2006)

I use nothing but the best ;-)


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

Huh, I've had my Staedtler 2mm pencil for ages and never noticed that it had a sharpener! Then again, I only use it for rough cutting during framing (the intended use), so a sharp point was useless in those cases. I also have .9, .7, .5 and .3 mm pencils. Drafting a small line? That .3mm was SWEET! I dropped it onto the oak floor in my last house and it stuck and stood there. Last of that pencil.

John-I still have some Dixon Black&Red pencils. That pencil ain't a Dixon B&R, even if it is black and red. Shameless promotion! :^D


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

I use the old drafting pencil lead holder because I have plenty of lead left over from my drafting days and supporting tools; templates, lead pointers, lettering guides, others so why not!

I also like the fact that I can get points on this lead better than any other Ind of pencil.


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## JohnChung (Sep 20, 2012)

I use two types of pencils. Carpenter and wooden pencils. Each has it's own purpose. Carpenter pencil
to mark waste which is much better than chalk while a wooden pencil marks the scribed lines. There are occasions that pencils don't work well with dark coloured wood. Then I use chalk.

I will keep on trying other alternatives in place of a wooden pencil since it needs consistent sharpening.


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## Woodbum (Jan 3, 2010)

Really?

Never in my old and fertile imagination (nowhere close to Lee Barker's wonderful dissertation) did I imagine before today that I would be in a discussion as a woodworker of what pencil do I use. WOW what a varied bunch of pretty neat responses. OK, here goes:
Depends,
Carpenters pencil for framing,
wooden "gimme" pencils for writing ( hopefully #2 Ticonderogas) but actually 50 year old promo pencils
from the family contracting business and any other use that can come up ,
#9 lead for general shop work if I dont have any sharpened gimmes or for trim outs,
#7 bic mechanical (cheap-I have hundreds of them laying around at every stationary tool in the shop) for most bench layout with squares etc,
#5 for fine and accuarate layout with Incra rules,
chalk for cabinet makers triangles and parts marking,
NONE. For really accurate layout, a marking knife, my *real *weapon of choice.
If no dedicated marking device is close at hand, a nail, pen, knife, ax , router bit, saw blade, thumbnail etc.

But generally 90% of the time whatever the hell happens to be laying around at the time that I can reach or what's in the apron or behind my ear to save time. If that doesn't work, then I'll seek out another appropriate dedicated marking device. Forget clamps!! Can you ever REALLY have too many pencils in your shop. Pobably the cheapest and most indispensable tool that we own. Ya'll have a good day, keep a good attitude, laugh more and work safe.


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## kwhit190211 (Feb 13, 2008)

i perfer the Dixon wooden pencil, personally. I make sure that they are American made as those junk China made ones are only good for the fire.


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## harshest (Oct 26, 2011)

I am a sucker for American made products so I use General Pencils Semi Hex 2HB, General Pencils Cedar Point and I just recently found Palomino Golden Bear.

I also use some old pencils that my grandfather had made for his general contracting company. The eraser is as had as a rock but so is the lead so it rarely needs sharpening.


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## JoeinGa (Nov 26, 2012)

LOL @ Lee! 
Any basic yellow pencil with an eraser (which usually wears out WAAAAAY before the pencil is even 1/2 way sharpened down). And I have both an electric model plus an old hand-crank that I've had for about 25 years. I generally gravitate to the hand-crank style.


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## LeeBarker (Aug 6, 2010)

I make my own. They don't break.










Kindly,

Lee


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## TCCcabinetmaker (Dec 14, 2011)

I use .5-.9 mechanical pencils depending on what I'm doing. The thicker I use for coarse woods that break leads easily, which is no big deal because I use the type you get from walmart that is really easy to reload.

Wooden pencils, I'd be fine with them if I wasn't carrying a piece of lead around in the back of my calf muscle from one… Turns out when you get them good and sharp, you can't retract the point…


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## CL810 (Mar 21, 2010)

I had been having a problem with pencil leads breaking and it was driving me crazy! Draw one or two lines and the lead breaks just up inside the wood, sharpen, and repeat. So I went on a search for a better pencil and sharpener.

I like a 2H pencil. The extra hardness makes the point last longer and stronger so it doesn't break so often. But the key is the sharpener. I've been using the Carl Angel-5 sharpener and it is great. It feeds the pencil in automatically and stops sharpening when the lead has a perfect point.

(I don't know why the pics rotated when I inserted them.)










However, lately I've been gravitating to a Pilot V5RT fine point pen.










The pen is just so much easier to see on all boards. Poplar, cherry and walnut in the photo.

But about the pencil leads breaking. I think my wife actually solved the problem. When the the sharpener arrived I explained why I had ordered it. And she says " you do know if you drop a pencil it will cause the lead to break inside the wood as well as the tip, don't you?" I couldn't count the number of times I knocked my box of pencils off a little shelf next to my workbench.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

I use the first pencil I can find. I have some of everything.

I use 2 most. A 2HB drafting type pencil that I get at Hobby Lobby, and a white pencil

Tried lots of pastel/chalk/charcoal type white pencils, haven't found one I really swear by.


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## Danpaddles (Jan 26, 2012)

Gotta watch out for #3, they can mar your work surface. But what is important is, how your pencils are sharpened. I send all mine to -

http://www.artisanalpencilsharpening.com/

oh hell, not really. Ain't that the darnedest thing you ever heard of?

I have a Boston mounted on a cabinet, the kids come out to the shop to use it when they do homework.

I sometimes read criticism about sharpening pencils on the belt sander. Oh well- that's what I do when accuracy counts.


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## Manitario (Jul 4, 2010)

I use whatever pencil I can find in the shop! I have a mechanical pencil, a "normal" pencil and several carpenter's pencils but none of them ever seem to be where I left them…


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

Every August you can buy a dozen pencils for a nickel at the Walls-mart for back ter school.
My kitchen drawer gits refilled evry year. I spent a buck an filled 'er up.

Still spent 15 minutes searchin' for a pencil the other day tho'... funny but true.


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## Danpaddles (Jan 26, 2012)

@TCCcab- lucky for you, that pencil lead ain't really lead. They use graphite these days. Which is why the brittle/ drop/ break thing comes about.


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## terrybarnhill (Dec 14, 2012)

Being an electrician, supply houses have promo wooden pencils I can have by the handful. Those, and the rectangular carpenter ones you find left on the job site. I'm really not that picky and these work fine for my needs.


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