# Comment Here If You Don't Like Stain



## superstretch (Jan 10, 2011)

Hey all.

My family has this nasty habit of using stain and poly on everything they make. They had me suckered into it until I came across and used (first) tung oil finish, then danish oil, and then, most recently, dewaxed shellac.

*Please comment here* to help prevent any more crazy flecked QSRO/WO, burly walnut, and figured maple from being mutilated by stain and plastic.

Do your part and help awareness of this issue grow so my family can reap the benefits of deep lustrous grain, mind-boggling curls, and insane chatoyance that can never be achieved this way.

The stain/poly combination is the Comic Sans of the woodworking world. Lets do our best to take the time to research into what finish is right for what we want to make!

Leave messages for my brother and tell him to stop being crazy!

Also, he's probably going to kill me, so if you don't see any contribs for me in the next few days, send the paddywagons!


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

I don't like stains. I like dyes a lot better because they are transparent.


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## woodworkerscott (Sep 12, 2010)

I'm with ya all the way. I hate stain, whether poly is on it or not. Stain ruins the natural beauty of wood. 
The fact that some woods require preconditioning to prevent blotching says it all. (some woodworkers need to learn to do this if they are going to stain. too many blotch jobs out there). When I make items for my folks they have me stain it with stain they have picked out. I have tried to show them the errors of their way, but they won't listen.

Keep it natural and show the woods natural beauty. Gotta love the oils; keeps the wood preserved for ages and is the easiest to repair if needed. Nakashima and Maloof have wrote specifically on not using stains…that is good enough for me.
Thanks for posting an important topic.


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## Finn (May 26, 2010)

I agree with woodworkerscott I use no stains at all. Just clear finishes.


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## MedicKen (Dec 2, 2008)

Stains….we dont need no stains


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## BobTheFish (May 31, 2011)

I use poly a lot, but mainly because I don't have the tools for lacquer or other hardcore finishes. I love oil finishes because they tend to leave the wood the closest to its natural beauty. But, that comes at the cost of being less resistant to water, oxygen, and other elements that might damage the wood, unless you're willing to invest a LOT of time into building up a good oil finish.

So, although it's not what I prefer, it's the best suited to a number of jobs where wear and tear or elemental damage and time are a bigger concern than look. When I FINALLY get started on a table I've been putting off for two months already, I'll probably go with a danish oil (which contains poly), or a whole hell of a lot of coats of oil (probably follow something like this: http://www.wwch.org/Technique/Finishes/OilFin.htm )

Overall, Poly's good for what it is: an easy apply finish that looks decent with good protection. Unless it's a piece I am intending to put a lot of effort into (meaning it's for personal enjoyment and I'm damning all costs anyhow), I'll go with poly for the screw around sort of projects.

What I, personally hate, is when someone uses so many layers of finish that the piece might as well be dipped in plastic. Or the shiny finishes that have been polished so much it barely resembles wood anymore. It's wood. It's a natural product. It's not meant to look like it came out of a glass factory, or press mold. It's not supposed to have that sheen. As long as my finishes don't look like that, I'm happy.

As for stain. Another thing I have intense distaste for usual. I hate making a piece of wood look like another species. Which is how most stains are sold. I mean, look at the colors: "cherry", "mahogany", "walnut", "red oak", and even "pine". don't stain maple a "pine" color!!! JUST BUY F***ING PINE!!!

But, stains DO have a place. Chestnut is a great stain color to mute the grain of oak I discovered. And red oak tends to have a bit too vibrant a grain pattern, especially on old boards. As such, I like to add a little stain color to the wood to mute the grain a bit. In no way am I trying to pass oak off as an artificial "cherry".

Instead, I use the stain to enhance something very mildly in the wood as it is. I also OCCASIONALLY stain veneers when I'm working with them to get a match on an existing piece with an existing stain in the realm of refinishing. Typically, the reason for this is because the piece is already stained, or because the stain is so deeply embedded that removing it can be nigh impossible, or, simply because the piece was originally intended to be stained, (although, usually in that case I go with lighter, more "wood enhancing" color choices, like a few caned chairs I plan on staining a cherry reddish color, rather than the existing stain obscuring "black" color that completely hid the original characteristics of the wood).

So although I definitely agree with your stance, I'm not as adamant about it, and prefer to have some relatively specific allowances.

EDIT: Crap! I wanted to also mention that your "Danish Oil" has a poly in it, though it's not the same as going strictly poly. When I'm talking of oil finishes in the first bit, I'm talking about straight up oils: BLO, Tung, et al.

I love the straight out oil look, but it's not durable enough for all purposes unless you put A LOT of work into it.

Also, I wanted to ask what specifically you meant by "poly" finishes. Do you also include epoxies? Or perhaps acrylics? Do you differentiate between wipe on oil based poly and your standard "paint on" water based poly approach? Because water based polys are a strict no-no in my house. I'll only go with a wipe on oil based poly when I use a poly.


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

Poly okay but I'm a big believer in the natural color of the wood. Oak has a beautiful grain. Then someone goes and makes it dark. Maple is gorgeous as a white wood. People stain it all manner of colors. The only wood type that I've seen improved with coloration is mahogany and maybe cherry.


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## Pyamed (Jan 10, 2011)

hahaha, you're such a funny guy…... Don't blame me when that MASSIVE tree in front of your house "accidentally" falls the wrong way.


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## hObOmOnk (Feb 6, 2007)

Note: So-called "Danish Oil" doesn't necessarily contain "poly".
For Example, Watco Danish Oil *does not* contain "poly".


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## danr (Sep 5, 2009)

Have any of you every used a 50/50 combination of poly and tung oil? (I usually cut it with a little bit of mineral spirits also). This can be brushed on and wiped off. I find that this gives you the best of poly (good protection) and the tung oil (wipe on/off).

As for stain, I used it when the piece dictates it. For example, a QSWO Greene and Greene table I completed recently wants be kind of dark in color. I started with a yellow Transtint dye (to make the QS fleck pop out), followed by a mohagany toned oil stain (for the nice rich brown tone), followed by Zinzer amber shelac (for that antique patina tone).

I say that you should use what makes sense and/or what the customer is looking for. I actually don't like to finish very much and would rather hire it out if I could.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

The only good reason to stain something, IMO, is if you are trying to match something else. However, I won't join in on your poly-bashing. If it's done right, a poly finish can look the same as a hand-rubbed oil finish, but with much better protective properties. (That's not to say I approve of a thick glossy layer slathered on with a cheap brush.)


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## superstretch (Jan 10, 2011)

I don't bash poly by itself.. I'm specifically referring to the stain/poly combo. I use poly on quite a few things that already have a DO 'basecoat', but prefer to use something like a good wax if the surface doesn't need to be waterproof.

@danr - QSWO just begs to be ammonia fumed

My grandpa was a firm believe in letting wood speak for itself. He rarely made a piece where he would have to alter the color, but did so on occasion to match his "clients'" house/specs/furniture. I say clients in quotes because, as far as I know, he never charged for anything he made


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

What is in tinted Danish Oil? Is it a dye? I dislike standard pigment stains like the rest of you but I can't say I don't use them on occasion. I remember when I first started off, I had about 20 cans of stain. Now I think I have one or two and those are just to match the wood on my home's exterior.


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## superstretch (Jan 10, 2011)

I'm pretty sure its a dye.. Its remarkable how flexible dyes are and what they can be added to.


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## BobTheFish (May 31, 2011)

hobo, it has a varnish in it. to wit, "Varnish is a transparent, hard, protective finish or film primarily used in wood finishing but also for other materials. Varnish is traditionally a combination of a drying oil, a resin, and a thinner or solvent", and "Polyurethane varnishes are typically hard, abrasion-resistant, and durable coatings."

So maybe it isn't poly per se, but it's something that acts in such a capacity.

To me, and this is just my own observation here, when you dilute the varnishes in oil, they don't exactly behave like varnishes as much as they do oils…. until you start building up coats.

When you use a varnish straight on, it takes on its own characteristics.

Also, to justify stain at least a little bit:

Stained: http://lumberjocks.com/projects/49378
Not stained: http://lumberjocks.com/projects/51767

Stained: http://lumberjocks.com/projects/50941
Not stained: http://lumberjocks.com/projects/49377

Sometimes the stain can work VERY effectively, provided it's for an intended purpose.

As for stain/poly blends, it's hard to find just straight out premixed stains anymore. And the poly blends can be different too. Hell, Minwax has at least three different combinations of poly stain out there. They've got the polyshades crap, their "wood finishes" line, which you can tell because the stains don't build color and develop a sealed coat, and then their gel stains, which, anything in gel form I'm sort of suspicious of….

I THINK Cabot's ok, but I haven't tried it yet, (because I don't stain much), but otherwise, I've only really seen the "mix your own" route in the non-poly/not-suspiciously-poly world.

I think I own a tiny little can of chestnut gel, and of the "wood finishes", I have a tiny can of driftwood, a can of sedona red, and a can of red mahogany.


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

If the wood is good, it can speak for itself. Otherwise, it needs help. But to say that wood needs to be natural is a good way to become a poor woodworker, if that is your profession. People like their wood colored, either to match this or go with that.

The confusion is that people assume that color MUST come from staining…and it doesn't. Whether in the wood with dyes and stains or over the wood with toners and glazes….there are a lot of choices…and none of them are wrong. However, I prefer to apply my color over the wood. This is because, as I said, not all wood is good…much of it needs help, especially when parts are reclaimed or from different batches. So, when the color is over the wood instead of on it, you can pull the pieces together. Because most of us use film finishes, so you can't tell how the color was applied anyway.

Some projects work very well with the stain/poly mix….so I'm not certain the animosity against this combo. Whereas I tend to avoid stains in favor of dyes, lots of people do it, and that doesn't make it wrong. Oh, and BTW, many "stains" are both a stain AND a dye…and because of this, some work more favorably than others.


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## hObOmOnk (Feb 6, 2007)

Note: Some so-called "Danish Oil" products are not and do not contain varnish.
Example, the Watco Danish Oil product is a blend of solvents, oils, resins and colorants, but no varnish.


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

Product data sheet for the Watco Danish oil is <<<here>>>.

Yep, no varnish.

Edit: The data sheet lists four main ingredients…naphtha, linseed oil, cobalt compounds, and trimethylbenzene. In this recipe, naphtha is the solvent, linseed is the oil, cobalt compounds would likely be an drying accelerator for the oil, and trimethylbenzene is likely used as a way to provide additional chaytoyance.


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## TimK43 (May 29, 2011)

I think that stains have a place in woodworking as long as they are used appropriatly. Like everything else in life, moderation is the key to success!!!!!!

One example is staining white ash to make it look more like oak. I do this all the time because I like to work with ash and it's usually cheaper than oak but once it's stained you can't tell the difference.

Poly can be a good finish if done correctly ie. in moderation!!!

Finishes are like hammers. We use different hammers in different situations depending on the desired results. You wouldn't use a sledge hammer on a finish nail, right?


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## DamnYankee (May 21, 2011)

Ever since I first used dye, I don't think I'll ever go back to stain.


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## dbhost (Jul 20, 2009)

Stains have their place. Like repairing pieces that were originally done with stain. But I prefer oil finished by a long shot… When the design of the project calls for it, I won't hesitate to use stains… But that isn't very often…


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## Ollie (Jun 8, 2009)

Why use one wood and then stain it to look like another. I feel its a little dishonest.


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## TimK43 (May 29, 2011)

Ollie,
Ash and Oak are in the same wood group as is Elm and others. Woodworkers have always substituted Ash for Oak over the centuries. Before the 1900's it was common to buy Oak but actually get Ash or even Elm. I don't think it's dishonest AT ALL!!! It's just my preference because Ash is tougher or more resilient the Oak.


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

Ollie:

Because not all of us can afford wood that would look good natural. Similarly, not all of us live in a home where a natural piece is appropriate to the style…the wife being the deciding factor on that anyway.

The vast majority of people prefer their wood colored…and not many have naturally colored kitchen cabinets. It's hard to say the majority of people are "dishonest." Some wood just looks better with some color…and it would not get used otherwise. I'd hate to see those nice trees die in vain!

Besides, by that argument, I'd say it's quite unnatural (and dishonest?) to slather oil all over wood, but that's what we do. Stains, dyes, toners, and glazes can still make wood look quite good if done right…even paint.


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## agallant (Jul 1, 2010)

I usailly toung oil then polly or laqure if it is going to be used allot like for example a table.


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## AaronK (Nov 30, 2008)

hah this is great! I love the "Comic Sans of the woodworking world" comment 

I dislike stain too, although I've used it once or twice and it served its intended purpose well enough.

I'm also frustrated when people think that colored wood is stained. "oh and I see you stained it too!" "uh… no… that's walnut"

As far as Jay's comment that "not all of us can afford wood that would look good natural." Can you give me a specific example?


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## BobTheFish (May 31, 2011)

I'll give two examples: pine and country maple. Also, if you strip down most oldish (since it will actually be wood) furniture, you'll find knots and other really ugly imperfections.
like this:









The one on the left is before I stripped it too, the one on the right after.

The stain they used covered up "ugly" wood, though killed all grain and other "wood" characteristics.

It's still ugly as hell.

I plan on staining it as I mentioned before, with a decentish red stain, which will make the wood look cleaner and more vibrant, but, hopefully, will still retain it's "woodiness" and it'll definitely be a wood looking chair.


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## Schwieb (Dec 3, 2008)

I have done it in the past…..... staining pine to look like walnut. How dumb was that? Funny thing is most people didn't care. I have mature greatly in my choices on finishing materials. Until I knew better, I didn't know.

I think that all surface finishing materials have their place in the overall scheme of things. I really hate painting wood but it works pretty well in some applications. If you have ever done production work, you will know that customers will want a certain look. We stain, paint, whatever to suit the client. When I do things for myself and they are to be for me, I will use a hand applied finish like linseed oil, tung oil, or danish oil every time. Because I know all I need to do to brighten up the object is rub it down a little and apply some new finish or wax. However I made cherry mouldings for my house and I did stain it and the spray it with poly. It looks great, is easy to maitain.

I'm not environmental wacko, but there is something to be said for the low VOC finishing materials too. I've tried some of these water based materials and not sure I like them as a potential purist, but not dealing with all the solvents is a plus.

I've used lacquer a lot over the years and I like it because it dries fast and is a stable hard finish. Aren't you glad that there are choices.


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## Schwieb (Dec 3, 2008)

I have done it in the past…..... staining pine to look like walnut. How dumb was that? Funny thing is most people didn't care. I have mature greatly in my choices on finishing materials. Until I knew better, I didn't know.

I think that all surface finishing materials have their place in the overall scheme of things. I really hate painting wood but it works pretty well in some applications. If you have ever done production work, you will know that customers will want a certain look. We stain, paint, whatever to suit the client. When I do things for myself and they are to be for me, I will use a hand applied finish like linseed oil, tung oil, or danish oil every time. Because I know all I need to do to brighten up the object is rub it down a little and apply some new finish or wax. However I made cherry mouldings for my house and I did stain it and the spray it with poly. It looks great, is easy to maitain.

I'm not an environmental wacko, but there is something to be said for the low VOC finishing materials too. I've tried some of these water based materials and not sure I like them as a potential purist, but not dealing with all the solvents is a plus.

I've used lacquer a lot over the years and I like it because it dries fast and is a stable hard finish. Aren't you glad that there are choices.


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

Aaron:

My comment about affordability is more in terms of those woods that we certainly wouldn't want to change much in terms of color…things with a nice figure, inherent color, and/or chatoyance. Walnut is my favorite. I have it, but not much of it since I normally have to pay around $9/bf here in DFW. Same with Birdseye and Curly Maple. Mahogany can be found for around $7/bf from some local home sawyers. I never even see cherry. I have yet to find a good source for rough sawn lumber in my area. Everything is S2S or S4S in 4/4 or less.

Even wood like oak and poplar isn't cheap here…and something like poplar… if there's a wood that could use some stain, it's that one.

Pine and fir are cheaper. Pine certainly is the wood, if any, that you'd want to leave natural…so my statement doesn't really apply there.

Aside: You guys in the Midwest or North-East with ready access to such woods at $3/bf or less…I don't think you realize how fortunate you are. I don't read "wood gloat" threads just for that reason…you guys are just a bunch of $&@$?&$! LOL!

But my point is that it's more likely that I'll use reclaimed wood for projects instead of shelling out tons of money on hardwood. Paying for 75 bf of QSWO for a dresser at $10/bf or more, a wood so dominating the Arts and Crafts styles (which is always colored, BTW), is just not very practical. When you use reclaimed wood, or wood from differing sources, you need to color your wood in order to make everything more uniform.

As with many things in life, there are idealists and there are realists. Many of us can't afford to be idealistic.


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## BobTheFish (May 31, 2011)

Cosmic - check out some of the online sources for those woods you are missing and for cheaper prices. Even with shipping, sometimes it's worth it.

As for me, I'm a bit envious of your mahogany at $7 a bf.

And I disagree about pines. More often than not, I find pine flatsawn with an obnoxious grain. It looks slightly yellow on a white, is common as hell, and waaaaaaay overused in the US. (I'm also one of the blasphemers who thinks oak is an overused crappy wood too. Save your boos and hisses! It's probably the most used wood that I see in most furniture when it's real wood. People go gaga for oak and walnut (another overblown species), thinking it's top rate stuff when it's NOT really that expensive comparatively to some exotics…. which the average consumer knows nothing about and plays down. I could go on about this. I might in a blog entry…)

Pine is a bit splotchy with stains though, so typically I prefer painting it, though, if you haven;t noticed, every stain out there seems designed to stain primarily oak and pine, coincidentally the same woods every home depot, lowes, etc. that i've stepped into seems to carry. A chunk of walnut? hell no! Maple? maaaaaaaybe. Mahogany? you're joking right? But oak and pine - endless.

So typically, those are the woods I'm most likely to stain.


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

Bob…exactly right…when the main source for your wood is Lowes and Home Depot, you pretty much have to color it to get it all to match.


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## TimK43 (May 29, 2011)

Jay,
Check your inbox for the message I just sent you!


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## ksSlim (Jun 27, 2010)

Wood has an inhierent beauty, but, there's a time to stain and a time to dye. All wood like most people need a little help to bring out the natural beauty. Some of us need more help than a weathered fence post.


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## Earlextech (Jan 13, 2011)

I don't mind stain for certain projects. However, when a customer would order a $25,000 Hickory kitchen and then stain it, it would just about kill me! Certain woods, when you pay extra for them, should be left in a more natural state.


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## S2artDesigns (Aug 4, 2011)

No Stains!! I love Tung oil or anything that lets me feel the actual wood. I love the natural looks. Its the real beauty in the wood that I think should be appreciated.


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## superstretch (Jan 10, 2011)

Just wanted to say thanks to all y'all for your contributions. Clearly, what has been gathered here is: poly is a great protective finish, but sometimes just isn't right. Stain on the other hand, is used when clients want it or you're matching something already made, but doesn't seem to be the woodworkers choice if it can be avoided.

My bro did say that he went out and bought some Tung Oil ^_^


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## SSMDad (Apr 17, 2011)

I'm with you on disliking stain. Dye is ok but usually unless it's pretty bland wood, I like Tung and Danish oil finished topped by a super-blonde dewaxed shellac. (well unless it's going to be exposed to water, then shellac isn't so great)

Poly is ok but I'd imagine you could get a less plasticky look if you rubbed it out with 0000 steel wool.


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## TimK43 (May 29, 2011)

Dan, if you do some research on dark stained wood and glossy finishes, you'll find that it's "traditional". it started back before electricity when oil lamps, candles and other forms of lighting were the norm. Dark stained furniture hid the soot residue from these light sources that often covered furniture so it became very popular. Glossy finishes also reflected light so it helped people get around in poorly lit rooms.

I'm not saying that the traditiponal ways are the best ways, I'm just trying to explain where they come from and a lot of people find it hard to break from tradition.

One other note, stain does serve other purposes besides tradition as shown here….










This quilt rack was made entirely of white ash. The bottom section was stained with a dark walnut stain to accent the crosses on each end. I could have made this out of actual walnut and ash but, as I think you will agree (?), it would NOT have had the same effect.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

I'm with the dark danish oil guys. Maybe a coat of BLO over that.


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## RonWoods (Aug 4, 2011)

Stains, well I think at times they can be appreciated, but they are not always what I would say I use. I like diversity anyway, so some stain? Yes! And many other kinds of finishes too.


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## SSMDad (Apr 17, 2011)

Follow-up to my previous post:

I really like the way wood looks naturally for the most part. Maybe some Danish or Walnut oil but maybe I'm in the minority. Except for pine and say poplar/ash which could use a bit of color sometimes IMO.


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## vbwoodworks (Aug 3, 2011)

I have stained in the past and I have used poly in the past, I have used thinned poly in the past, but that is in the past. I do not use either one anymore. I do use teak oil, tung oil and danish oil and then a wiping varnish by Tried and True. It gives you the look (beauty) and and feel (silky smooth) of the wood and offers more than enough protection, and it has very low VOC, but be prepared to spend days on the finish, but it is worth it.

Darrin


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