# Is there effective critique on this site?



## CanadaJeff (Jul 8, 2008)

I'm not looking to start an argument, but I just realized as I'm scrolling through the projects that 99.99% of the comments are all in praise of a project. There is nothing wrong with that praise is excellent to hear, but it makes me wonder if its helpful in making us become better woodworkers.

Perhaps it's tough to do on a site like this. Many people are friends and nobody wants to feel like the jerk of the group when they come to a project that has 20 comments all saying it's a great job.

I think one of the best ways to learn is by sharing your projects and receiving both the good and the bad feedback. I'm not suggesting we trash peoples work, I have yet to find a project that I would even want to trash, but perhaps some good constructive criticism would also be useful to help those learn where they could improve.

Having said that and being an amateur woodworker I'll step up to bat and offer my own projects as Guinea pigs for this http://lumberjocks.com/CanadaJeff/projects . Feel free to provide ideas of where I can improve. I would only ask that they be constructive so we can learn from them.

I'm going to try and do this more in the projects that I look at. So if you read this post and subsequently see me provide a constructive criticism, please keep in mind that my aim is to help both myself and others improve at woodworking.

Any thoughts? or critics!


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## PurpLev (May 30, 2008)

yes. I personally agree with you, and would like to see more criticism. however. this topic has been brought up every once in a while by another member, and the consensus is that when people post projects, it's more a self-accomplishment thing, and should not be criticizes as much unless a person asks for criticism in their post. forums and blogs usually get more criticism and suggestive comments though.


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## DocK16 (Mar 18, 2007)

Jeff, I agree there is room for critique that is less than flattering that could help me be a better ww. Your hot link isn't working though.


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## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)

I have to agree with your post, but must say no one wants their hardwork tore apart. That said, I want to share with everyone some of the best critique I have ever had of my work on this project posting. It is by LEE J. 

It taught me loads about visual appeal and have applied that thought pattern to my work ever since. I will always appreciate LEE's feedback. His comment was rock solid.


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## CanadaJeff (Jul 8, 2008)

True enough PurpLev.
I know for myself personally, when I post a project while I may not ask for it to be criticized I wouldn't mind hearing what I could have done differently.
It would be nice to see a check box when filling out a project to be posted asking if you are wanting a critique.


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## Ottis (Apr 17, 2009)

Jeff.while I agree with all you say…..I also believe there are "Ways" to be critical…Like you, I find VERY little to say in a negative way to ANY piece posted. Most are so far above my skill level they belong in a museum.

But I also think of it like this…we are all woodworkers…and all at different skill levels, some are just starting out…and others are true masters. But BOTH are just as proud of the piece they made…or they would not have posted it for all to see.

When I was young and playing around in my dads shop…some of the stuff I made was nothing more than a small kid playing at being a woodworker. But my dad never tore a piece apart (and not saying thats what you are saying), or said anything negative about it. But he would say things like "Thats really nice Don…you know….if you did this…or add this…this piece would really pop"

As a beginning woodworker who thought the world of his dad….if he had been negative toward my work, I probably would have never picked it up. I try and remember this and did/do the same with my son….and do the same with anyone who ask my opinion on a piece. I will say nice things about it…AND mean them…but if I think it could use a little "Something extra" I will say so for what it's worth.

I think people and members want to be nice…and not hurt someones feelings…and understandable so. But I think if it is done in a "Constructive way" there is nothing wrong with it. As I said…I have seen some real masterpieces here….and I have seen some beginning woodworkers who posted simple plywood boxes to hold up their TV with…but he was probably JUST as proud of his plywood box as the man who spent months making his master piece.

So…for his skill level,(Master, mid level or beginner) he DID do a good job…and I tell them so and try to help them by encouraging them to do even more and better work.


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## CanadaJeff (Jul 8, 2008)

Dan thanks for sharing, I looked at the critic Lee gave you and thats what I'm talking about. I would find that type of evaluation of my work useful in becoming a better woodworker myself. I guess the point is that there is always ways to improve and become better, and those types of comments ultimately make us better woodworkers.


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## willmego (Mar 27, 2008)

Usually the poster themselves points out the flaws we could never tell from a picture anyway. Usually somebody is their own worst critic. In the event somebody does post some junk, it's usually more from ignorance of the alternative than anything else, in which case there's usually some friendly comments about trying it another way, or a link to somebody's project which accomplished the same thing while doing it a lot better. I do recall a project on here where somebody posted a project designed to hold a collection of small tools, and made the statement that it didn't matter what it looked like or how well it was made because it was just for some tools, and that did create a small fight with several people (myself amongst the group that says that everything matters, even if you're the only one who will ever see it). I think that on this site, where you're dealing with objects that represent somebody's possibly massive investment of time, money, and emotion, having only positive forms of feedback is probably best, and I think most of us do in fact know this and follow it, even if it's somewhat subconscious. So perhaps just finding better examples of whatever the work is, or "Have you ever tried doing it this way?" along with some small praise for the effort and courage it takes to just post something and have it be judged and commented on by thousands…well, maybe it's all for the best.


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## PurpLev (May 30, 2008)

Jeff, since this is a personal preference as mentioned previously - I can only suggest that in your own project postings, you ask for criticism explicitly. nothing more than just adding an extra line of text to your post. and will plainly tell people that you're ready for it, even might ask for specific critique related to particular aspect of each project as you see fit.


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## johan (Oct 15, 2008)

Hi Jeff,
I agree with you. As a professional woodworker for 25+ years, I still learn every day. It is thanks to constructive criticism that I have been able to achieve the standard where I am now. I was not always receptive to such criticism, but most times I listened and applied some of it, to my ultimate benefit. This criticism should never be construed as negative, but as a very positive thing, as it is most times well meaning, and for the benefit of all. Everybody has got a different perspective or view of the same project so there can be so many different ways to do the project.
I am in favour of constructive criticism, and take it as well meaning and instructive. I am sure many lumberjocks, amateur and professional alike, can learn from this.


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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

It's pretty hard to "critique" from a few pictures.

1. I often can't see the joinery or the finish.

2. I don't feel my comments on the selected design are relevant unless asked for.

3. Most of the processes are scantily documented thought the several steps so it's often difficult to appreciate the difficulties the operator may have had with roving grain and warp etc.

4. Finally, some are so bad from my perspective that I have to refrain from commenting.
If the poster has not asked for a "critique" he or she is probably not expecting one.
FFC= fishing for compliments.


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## lew (Feb 13, 2008)

One thing that's difficult to know is how many projects have been "critiqued" by a private message, to the poster.

For myself, I have made suggestions through private messages; hoping a "one on one" discussion would be more helpful.


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## Kindlingmaker (Sep 29, 2008)

...as Bob #2 said and each time each of us does something we think it is a good work and each time we start a new project it will be better than the last and not as good as the next. If a Jock wants a complete reveiw of his work then maybe but it in a blog with lots of details and high def photos. I have to add that some of the projects are not "See what I have done" but rather "See I can do it" or even" or "See one can think outside the box".


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## Ottis (Apr 17, 2009)

Thats a good idea *lew*...never thought of that.


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## Durnik150 (Apr 22, 2009)

This is a tough one! I think the general idea is, if you really want critique, be specific about what you want to talk about. Regretfully, a sour grape here and there would jump in wholeheartedly and take it as permission to really flame out on someone.

The positives are genuine on my part. If I don't like a piece I just usually don't comment. You can almost gauge how much people like the piece by how many comments you get, within reason.

Interesting topic.


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## KentS (May 27, 2009)

You have brought up a very valid point, one I have often thought about in my short time here on LJ. I usually don't feel good offering suggestions, unless they're asked for. I would typically just not respond. There are so many different skill levels--and personalities, that how can you really criticize on a constructive level. What is very easy for me to accomplish because of my experience, and quality of tools would be very difficult for some. I have seen work by brand new LJ's that I am very impressed by what they have done, even though it would be junk compared to some here. Sometimes they just need some encouagement. The critique might come later.

I also feel you should earn the right to criticize. Know the person and their personality and level before you offer what might be a great suggestion. I have had people in my life that were actually rude in their comments. That said, some of those were instrumental in my development as a craftsman (and no, I didn't like hearing it) The ones I listened to were craftsmen that knew their stuff--very well. Without the input I would not have improved my skills. Some love to critique to enhance their own self worth. Others are genuinely intersted in teaching. I guess what I am trying to say is, yes I agree with your concern, just be careful how it's done.


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## HokieMojo (Mar 11, 2008)

I've siad this before and I'll say it again. I think most people know the mistakes they made. If they are going to post the project, they'll either 1) try and show it in the best light or 2) they will highlight the errors they made for others.

The only thing you can really critique well from a few photos is a design element and even that is so subjective that it is probably more a matter of personal taste.

If you want critiques of a project, you can always request it on your project post. Just highlight it in bold at the top and bottom of your project post that you *REALLY* want constructive critisism. I think you'll get it unless your project is in the top 10% of what's posted here.


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## CanadaJeff (Jul 8, 2008)

As I am the guinea pig I have gotten a few people constructively comment on my projects and honestly, they have been great! Clearly I can improve my dovetails and I now have an new idea to consider if I attempt a recreation of my other project. Thanks the comments are appreciated.

Upon seeing the comments posted perhaps this topic should have been more focused on ecouraging people to seek critiques and not promting people to provide them.


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## patron (Apr 2, 2009)

personaly , i look for the enthusiasm in someones work ,
there are so many different styles and woodworking levels here ,
that making a realistic critique is a personal choice ,
but i can only base that on my work and experiences .
how another woodworker finds his happyness i try and share with him in his project .
there are many things in here i would never have thought to make ,
or styles that im not even interested in .
but i always try to see others work thru their eyes ,
and enjoy their accomplishments this way .
i believe that there are many here , that are interested in woodworking ,
but might feel intimidated somewhat at first , if we all critique everything ,
we might lose these good people . they might just enjoy looking at some nice work , and dream about the day they can join in the fun , and be recognized ,
many people play football or basketball , it's a team thing , but also 1 on 1 .
yet there are many fans that enjoy the game that never play .
al toghether , it brings the exitment to the sport .
if i don't like something , i just don't coment .
like they say , "if you don't have something good to say , don't talk ! "


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## Russel (Aug 13, 2007)

This topic has come up before and it seems that people assume that an "effective critique" must point out a negative aspect of something. The more I think about it, the less I'm convinced that is an accurate assumption. Webster defines "critique" as, "to consider the merits and demerits of and judge accordingly". So if encouraging remarks cause a poster to try again and be better, then I would consider that an effective critique.


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## pommy (Apr 17, 2008)

i love to hear other peoples views good or bad and i dont think anyone should take it negative we all try our best when we make something and to have it looked at by cratfman better than me and can point me in the right direction how can that be bad so come on guys we are here to help each other yeah …...

but that said if someone said my work is crap but thats all they say then i just ignore the prat! LOL…....

We are all hear to LEARN yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Andy


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## sIKE (Feb 14, 2008)

Like lew, I like to send my critiques via PM's and there are a couple of LJ's here on this very thread who know what I am talking about . Honestly (and IMNSHO) it is really hard to form a proper critique from some pictures. Now stylistic points/advice like Lee's is the best we can do. I am more likely to tell you what I did wrong with my projects. With that said, I am a big boy and like and look forward to constructive criticisms on all my work. I don't want a "You Suck" type of critique though as I am looking for something I don't know….. >


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## kiwi1969 (Dec 22, 2008)

there,s a big difference between "critique" and "criticise" One is generally a positive thing and one is not. Haveing someone critique my work is welcome and helpfull for me personally as a woodworker seeking to better my work and and critique should be taken as intended. however if you put your work out into the public arena you should have a bit of a thick skin as some don,t know the difference and as pommy just said they can be ignored.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Dan, That is a good example. When I saw your tiles, I liked them but they didn't look right. I couldn't put my finger on it, but the 2 rails are it!


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## Karson (May 9, 2006)

I'll usually make a private comment if I have a suggestion that might cause the poster to think that I'm being to critical. That is never my point I never tell anyone that their project is junk, but try to show some things that I've found to be better.

Some have been received and others have gotten the cold shoulder with no replies.


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## GMman (Apr 11, 2008)

I am not getting involved in this one, not even with a 10 foot pole. LOL LOL


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## ShawnH (Mar 30, 2007)

I have found that this board is full of kind hearted, genuine people who are always ready to help each other out. Very few egos, even though the board is stuffed full of people with skills that warrant ego. If someone wants to critique my project I would assume it is only to help me on my woodworking journey. My experience on this board so far makes it hard for me to think anyone here would flame someone else.

And as everyone else has already said, if someone else tears apart a project, the maker has done that to himself already.

Again as has been posted, tactful suggestions meant to help should be the road to trave.


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## kolwdwrkr (Jul 27, 2008)

I have to wonder if we really are here to learn. I've posted several "how-to" blogs with minimal response. The response is typically from the regulars. The number of reads compared to the number of "woodworkers" here is astonoshing. Most have less views then this thread, and far less comments. I would think that a blog on how to carve would get more attention then a blog on hauling logs home, but it's not the case.

I've come to the conclusion that this site has a "click", or a group of people that will post a comment just to please people. The others post on blogs, projects, or topics from people that are known here or new. The rest go to controversial threads.

So are we really here to learn? We post questions when we have one, some of them seem very simple. Almost as if it's simply to strike up conversation, and typically that's where it ends up. Do you really need advice on what size lathe to buy? Really? Buy a mini lathe and see if it's big enough. LOL. Or better yet buy what's in your budget. Makes sense to me. Or what size router? These questions are to strike up conversations and make friends. They aren't to get answers. Common sense will get those answers.

I think a majority of the people here don't comment much, and if they do they are seeking information. The rest of the time they don't contribute. They look for answers and inspiration. That's it. When they post their finished project there is no thank you to so and so for the inspiration, and there is no criticism of the work. The person simply learns on their own, and gets the praise for it regardless of how much information was pulled from here to make it happen.

So to the original question, what's the point in criticizing someones work? We will probably get the old "maybe I'll try that next time" but most likely it will make us look like jerks because 15 people already said it was the best project on earth. Personally I like to post a "thank you for sharing" on projects simply because they did share, and so many haven't. We don't need a vigilant stating their opinions of projects. People can't handle the truth, and this probably isn't the place for it anyhow.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

I can tell you that from a novice who is trying to learn and make something out of wood it is most important to recieve favorable acknowledgements for an item he has plucked up the courage to "show". In your heart you know that your showing does not hold a candle to other LJ posts.
The novice post is showing that despite having no experience, he made *something* and it was a great achievement which he wants to show.
LJ's ususally do a great job congratulating the novice and this is what he needs to go ahead and build on this successful posting.
Something that I think that would be helpful is that responding LJ's to the post make gentle suggestions and ask questions about the item. This is a form of critique whiich will not ruffle any feathers and put a novice on the road to becoming more skilled.

Just a thought from a novice.


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## Ottis (Apr 17, 2009)

Roger…thank you…thats what I was trying to say…but you said it much better than I.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I my experience, you will find about the same numbers in any kind of orginization. I looked through the LJ's one day. Out of 10,000, 1/2 or more had only posted a few times, many only once. Only a couple hundred ever do much at all and the top few do the most. I doesn't matter if you are running cub scouts, Campfire, Little League, shooting matches, an investment club, you name it, the per centages are always about the same. 5% do the most, 75% plus are there for the ride.

I think those who ask what size lathe or router to buy are genuine. They are usually totally inexpereinced woodworkers, have almost no experience with tools. I think it represents a sizable chunk of their disposable income and they don't want to make a big mistake.


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## Ottis (Apr 17, 2009)

*I think those who ask what size lathe or router to buy are genuine. They are usually totally inexpereinced woodworkers, have almost no experience with tools. I think it represents a sizable chunk of their disposable income and they don't want to make a big mistake.*

I agree Bob…and I think that even goes for more "Experienced" woodworkers…..while I am no "Master" woodworker….I do consider myself "Experienced" and what brought me to L/J's in the first place was looking for reviews over a Jointer..I had never used this jointer…and for that matter never even seen it in action..but I read the reviews of those who were kind enough to post them…shot them some pm's asking about it and if they still liked it as much as they did in their reviews…and bought it.

It was the friendly members and the way they just answered a new guy and gave all the advice they could that kept me here. Hell…one member even sent me his phone # and told me to call him about it…we spent 30 min. on the phone just talking shop…..it's because of members like that…..that I have hung around (Though I'm sure some would wish I would go away…lol)


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Those kinds of guys usually ask more specific questions after reading reviews. I ask a lot of "stupid" questions because, while I have a pretty good mechanical ability, my knowledge of wood other than a very few species is almost nil. When it comes to finish, Birchwood Casey's stock finish is the one I know )


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## 2 (Feb 26, 2006)

*If you want a constructive feedback just ASK for it in the project description.*


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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

I've read a lot of books over the years and have yet to write to an author and critique the book.
I would likely do that at a cocktail party if he or she asked me for my opinion.
I thinks that's what Martin is suggesting as well.


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## firecaster (Jan 15, 2009)

I encourage alot of people to join this site. Especially teenagers and new woodworkers. One thing I tell them is "you can nail two 2×4s together and someone will say they like it".

The encouragement at this site is great and I appreciate it. Roger Clark, above, said it well. (My name's Roger also. Great minds kind of thing) The ones that know what they're talking about can find ways to be helpful without hurtful.

The skill levels usually exhibited here are so far above mine I'd be scared to post if too many were going to flame me. It's amazing how great this group treats each other.

BTW, my wife thinks I'm addicted to this site.


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## ShawnH (Mar 30, 2007)

I think that only looking at the raw numbers of a members posts and making judgements about how they use the board is wrong. I may not post a lot or read every entry every person makes, but there are reasons for that.

1. I was taught "It's better to let people think you are and idiot, intead of opening your mouth and proving them right.

2. I don't yet have the skills or experience to comment with anything really helpful, most of the time.

3. i have a day job that is not woodworking related and a night job that is not woodworking related(read 3 kids). So free time can be spent here or actually in the shop making sawdust, no contest.


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## ellen35 (Jan 1, 2009)

I know what is pleasing to me and I try to comment positively about that project or some aspect of the project that catches my eye (wood combo, shape, etc).
I post what I have done only if I think it meets the standards set here. I try not to post my "practice" stuff. If I am not happy with how something turned out and cannot figure out how to make it better, I would ask for help. Occasionally I will make a suggestion…always gentle…if I think I see something that could be done differently - not better! We need to stay respectful of others and I love the encouragement I get when I post (I thank all of you who comment on my posts). If anyone has a suggestion to make my projects better, I too would wlecome it. This is just an awesome site and I have learned so much from all of you - whether you are the most experienced woodworker on the site or a neophyte. 
Thank you.


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## jockmike2 (Oct 10, 2006)

I received a PM once from an old galoot whose opinion I highly value, giving me some constructive criticism. I asked him to post it on line, that maybe it would help someone else, that it sure would'nt hurt my feeling. He did and my heart wasn't broken. But he did give me that choice. Which I respect. I think most guys and gals know their mistakes already and don't need them pointed out. However, either a PM or as Martin suggested if they don't ask for it, let it go.


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## kolwdwrkr (Jul 27, 2008)

I've PM'd constructive criticism to some of the inexperienced users with bad results. They felt scorned and considered me rude. I wasn't trying to be rude, I was trying to say "I would have done this, you should do that because…." Etc. I never meant to cause the persons emotional distress, just professional advice. I've been woodworking for a long time and the things I see being done should be pointed out. One person ran the rails through the stiles on a cabinet so you could see the end grain, not to mention that the top rail was huge. I pointed it out, as well as the massive rails on the doors, a misplaced carving, etc, and offered them some suggestions on how to improve. The person took serious offense, stating "I made it just how I wanted it and I love it the way it is". My critique was kind, in my opinion, and offered to help them make different decisions on the next project. To help them learn. The person didn't want my advice, so now I don't offer it to anyone unless asked. My suggestion if you offer any sort of criticism is to tread lightly. People want to hear their project is the best.

Some questions may be asked in sincerity or even on a whim. Maybe people want a quick answer. So that's fine, but do a follow up. Don't ask about a lathe or router and then never show what you purchased. Never ask a question related to a project you are working on and then never post the project. That just sucks. I think people here deserve to see where their advice led the OP.


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## jockmike2 (Oct 10, 2006)

Kolwdwrkr, maybe you could have pre PMed that message asking that person if they wanted some constructive criticism. I'm not saying you did anything wrong, just saying maybe that might work better than just throwing the help at them wanted or not.


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## kolwdwrkr (Jul 27, 2008)

It seems easier to help the people on this site by posting blogs on how you do your work during the build and then posting the project. If there is a new joint or system you used share it. People will read what they want and get what they want out of it. Bugging people about their project seems like a waist of time. They are to proud of their accomplishments and some people can't take anything in. Why should you have to ask to give advice. That's what this site is for is it not? So if the advice isn't wanted then why offer it? It's a catch 22. You win some, loose some.


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## jockmike2 (Oct 10, 2006)

Yea, I have to agree.


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## grizzman (May 10, 2009)

there is no such thing as constructive critisism…i think with all that has been said here. giving positive remarks as don gave reference too is what and should happen….we all have to learn to speak in a way that is possitive…ive noticed in todays world, its seems folks are short tempered…..short on patience and we have to be careful with how things are said…if we all can feel like were all here to support one another..and help each other, then we all can grow from the comments were given…as lee gave to dan..that was very appropriate and lee said it with the intention of helping dan…so this is a good subject, and if we can all go forward in the spirit of friendship and the attitude that if i can say something, say it in a way that will help and lift….i think all of you guys are awesome….and your work and attitudes have been a blessing to me….im so thankful for martin and this site….its been a great …you men are great…..


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## bayspt (Apr 4, 2008)

That's why I think Martins comment is the best route. If you just want to post your success however large or small (as mine seem to be) then do so. If you want constructive comments then simply state it. My wife is a professional photographer, and on her paid members only forum, they simply put a capitol CC in the title of the post. This lets everyone know that the poster wants Constructive Comments about the pictures. It seems as simple as that to me. I come here to look at the pretty pictures sometimes, but mostly I come here to learn. I have taken sooooo many ideas from this sight already, and I am really just in the setting up shop phase of this wonderful journey. I can see how just openly offering "negative" comments to some would irritate them, but to me it is part of the growing process.


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## SCOTSMAN (Aug 1, 2008)

I have never tried to be or I hope have never been rude or arogent when dealing with anyone re their work. We don't have any idea the stresses some of our members have to deal with during their lives so who are we to be rude to them, however I have and still take the decision to point out if something I see looks in my humble opinion to be wrong on a piece I think this is what I would like others to do to me anyway.I like things and people the way they are always very nice to each other it's very refreshing compared to other sites where you can get bullying bad language and bad tempers and bad humour etc etc Alistair


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## grizzman (May 10, 2009)

hey jockmike2 we want to know who the old galoot is…...lol…... ......im sure he would be a lumber kock with too much lumber…..........


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

My reasoning for not getting into constructive criticism too much is simply this:

If the project looks poorly constructed, the poster is probably a novice and doing the best he/she can. No point in pointing out what anyone can see. On the other hand, if the project is well-constructed but I don't like the design or the wood selection, then any criticism would just be putting *my* taste over the posters', and I'm not going there unless the poster specifically asks for aesthetic criticism.

Now, if the poster mentions that he had a tough time with a certain aspect of the project, I'm more than happy to offer any tips and advice I might have.


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## LesB (Dec 21, 2008)

I agree in theory that suggestions, comments, and an occasional critical remark are helpful to every one; even those just viewing the posted project who read them. If I have something to comment on I first try to determine the posters experience level by checking their home & project postings to avoid any serious gaffe. I try to adjust my comments accordingly. I don't have the time or interest in commenting on every posting as some members are kind enough to do. So I try to make my few entries say something meaningful. 
Current comment exempted (-;


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## pommy (Apr 17, 2008)

Hi Guys

Do you know if you read every one of these posts here.( i have LOL ).... One thing comes through.. We are all at different levels with our woodwork so Pease remember we all need a little advice or praise wether with a PM or on your project posting

Like a lot here have said there are guys just starting out and guys who sould be showing their projects in gallerys but i think every single one of us would say we Learn something new everyday

just my two pennys worth
Andy


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## jockmike2 (Oct 10, 2006)

Grizzman if you must know it was my old buddy Dick Cain and not my other old buddy Karson.


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## grizzman (May 10, 2009)

thought it was funny…..i assumed wrong….was just an observation…..


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