# United States of China



## pashley (Mar 22, 2008)

It seems like I ever since I started woodworking, with a focus on *quality* - materials, design and construction, I've become very sensitive to the quality of other consumable goods, such as furniture, but also other general consumables - clothes, tools - just about anything you'd find at say, a Wal-Mart.

And I've really come to hate Chinese goods.

It seems like our retails stores are just flooded with Chinese junk. Sure, it's cheap, but lasts about as long as a teenager's mood.

I'm sick of anything Chinese (ok, I like the food).

They constantly rip-off our products with cheap imitations. Did you patent, produce and market a great gadget? Expect the Chinese to rip it off, and turn out a cheap imitation inside of a month. Go to *Harbor Freight Tools* - all Chinese junk. Whether it's the quality of the steel in something as simple as a cold chisel, or a $200 lathe - it's all Chinese junk. I don't think I'm going to shop there anymore.

I recently visited "Chinatown" in NYC, and you wouldn't believe all the Gucci and Prada handbags you can get for $30.

This antipathy towards inferior products is not just targeted at China; there are other countries that dump junk here as well, but their products don't seems quite as bad (Mexico, Thailand, etc). The Japanese seem to make world-class electronics.

Then you have the health hazards coming out of China. In addition to the dirtiest coal plants going up every couple of days in China, you have baby formula with formaldehyde, toys laden with lead, tainted pet foods, etc.

I'm wondering if America will see the light here, and start shunning Chinese junk, and look for better quality stuff - especially in things we craftsman trade in - furniture, clocks, cabinets, etc.

Wouldn't that be great?


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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

When Reagan and Mulrooney signed the free trade act they also unilaterally decided to allow our home based manufacturing to leave North America, leave the tax base, and leave the workers behind.

If you want to put the blame on anyone it should be the consumers who even today are fixated on getting the cheapest of everything.

That can only happen at the expense of somebody else.
The Chinese know us better than we know ourselves and simply offer the promise of having what we cannot or will not afford.
Pashley, you are right, you can vote with your wallet.

Cheers
Bob


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

The Chinese can do good quality if asked too… but because
suppliers push them so hard on price they just give them what
they want… in that cricumstance something has got to give.

China is waking up. I don't know if China will continue to produce
cheap low quality good forever. SO - as energy costs rise globally
it will get more costly to import goods to the States from China
and goods made closer will be more able to compete on price.

Manufacturers - even small ones like one-man wood-shops - they
have to adjust to the changing demands of the marketplace. There
are plenty of people out there with the money to buy nice woodworking
- and they can easily be persuaded that Chinese stuff is junk. The 
trick is in knowing how to get their attention.

In Urban areas with "loft living" there is a whole cultural subset of
people who are interested in "reclaimed" and "recycled" things -
but the real motive is one of STATUS : "Oh, that piece was made
from the timbers in an old barn in Pennsylvania - it's the only one of
it's kind and I was lucky to get it," - people buy the provenance of
such things as much as the object… After all - a few cinder blocks
and a board make a table that serves the same purpose.


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## 8iowa (Feb 7, 2008)

Not to get too political, but the "one sided" 1993 trade agreement with China was the major turning point for American manufacturers.

Once this was in place, Wal-Mart dumped their "made in America" slogans & ads and began forcing their suppliers to move manufacturing to Asia. Companies that did not comply were cut off. As an example, they destroyed Rubbermaid in Chillicothe Ohio.


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## pashley (Mar 22, 2008)

I admit, I don't understand those trade agreements…I suppose there was good things and bad things about them.

I know labor unions don't help with the problem either, e.g., car manufacturing. I'm sure someone will take issue with that comment, but labor costs are insane some times…


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## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

...and you should have heard the politicians crow when our little town got it's own walmart. "Jobs for Idahoans" was the cry. Economic development! Hurray! And a dozen little family businesses quietly closed their doors.


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## Kindlingmaker (Sep 29, 2008)

For those that are old enough, Japan used to be as China is today and now look at Japan. I agree that everytime we purchase a foreign good we are hurting ourseleves, and this is for every country. As an American I have seen our quality drop to a point that it is very close to the imported cheap goods but having a higher price. Our large manufacturing companies have ruched to cheaper labor and laid off their employees. The company that work for is one of the biggest in the world and they have done this also. My company is now getting bit in the butt because of they have lost their skilled labor here and the overseas suppliers have given them the fickle finger of fate. Ok, where do we go now? I try to buy goods that are made here but then we are not manufacturing what we used to. How many times have we had to fix things after bought them and brought them home? We need to let our political leaders, who really don't have a clue what's going on with everyday citizens, know what we are thing and what we want. For this country, I would wish and hope that we drop back a bit and be proud that we can manufacture the best and not continue to sell out to the cheap. Remember when we bought something and it lasted nearly forever and if it broke there were parts to fix it and just throw it away and buy a new one? ...I am rambling but… Where do we go from here? I will try and do my best in working wood and not settle for good enough…


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## pashley (Mar 22, 2008)

Dennis,

Wal-mart is definitely getting me riled up over time. They force their way into communities that oppose them. My wife is an HR person with a large local firm, and she tells me horror stories about Wal-mart's treatment of employees.


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## KnickKnack (Aug 20, 2008)

I have a European perspective (being English living in Portugal).
What's been said is true, but I'd note …
a) "Vote with your wallet" and "Buy the quality". Yes, if possible - but it's becoming increasingly difficult to actually find the alternative for many things - it's starting to become "Chinese or nothing" for many things - now *that* is scary!
b) I think that that is actually part of the plan - to drive the "quality" manufacturers out of business forever.
c) As for the "Gucci" and "Prada" - if it's saying that on the bags report them - fairly sure that's illegal.
d) Best Chinese restaurant I ever ate at outside China was in Aqaba, Jordan.


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## EEngineer (Jul 4, 2008)

If labor costs are the problem, then why are Honda, VW and Toyota building plants here in the US and eating Detroit's marketshare? Shipping costs across either ocean are just too great to make it profitable, no matter what the labor cost differential is, to make cars off-shore and ship them to the US.

No, damnit, the problem is $billion CEO's who are convinced they know better what their buyers want than the buyers themselves! And quality. Well, quality is job none in Detroit!

Saddest of all, now that times are tough and sales are falling, what solution have the Detroit automakers come up with? Better cars, improved manufacturing? No, they want part of the $700 billion bailout for banks to merge two failing Detroit automakers to make one good one! Much like failing financial institutions, the problems start at the top!


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## Padre (Nov 5, 2008)

And yet, as a newbie woodworker, I am being referred to Jet equipment, and it is made in China!


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## Chipncut (Aug 18, 2006)

I think the reason Japanese car makers are building plants in the USA,

is because the labor costs in Japan are higher than ours.

That may happen in China someday, & the factories will be returning here.


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## rikkor (Oct 17, 2007)

The foreign companies manufacturing in the US are non-union plants. The "American" manufacturers are all union. Like unions or not it does not make for an even playing field.


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## ChicoWoodnut (Dec 15, 2007)

I think part of the problem with China is that they have not had to learn the lesson American manufacturers learned around the turn of the century. If you don't pay your employees enough to buy your products, you won't have a market for your products. China hasn't had to follow that rule because they don't sell most of their products domestically. They rely on an eternal fountain of consumers from outside China. I think they are about to suffer from that philosophy though. I think the fountain is drying up.


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## kolwdwrkr (Jul 27, 2008)

This is so funny. I was thinking about this topic yesterday and was going to post, but I get a little nervous talking about things foreign related. After all there are a lot of jocks on here that are foreign. As an american I see things change everyday. Cartoons are teaching spanish, asians are the professors at colleges, etc. I pulled my pants down to take and crap and the first thing I saw on my tag to my underwear was made in mexico. That is when I started thinking about the fact that nothing is american made anymore and that is the downfall to our economy. Lets face it U.S. auto manufacturers assemble cars with foreign parts. We assemble cabinets with imported materials. Thus they are assembled in america, not made in america. The only goods that are truely american are the goods people like Frank make when they walk into their back yards, knock down a tree, and make a piece of art out of it. Otherwise we are importing the products to make it. Sure in the woodworking industry we have to. Cocobolo don't grow in my back yard. But in the auto industry we can make our own pistons, we just choose not to. It was said before that the companies making these things are closing small shops down. This is true and not true. Those making a truely custom product that can be considered art are thriving. The others have to close because the large manufacterers are producing the same thing in bulk and faster. It's like buying cabinets from someone with a CNC machine as opposed to someone with a table saw. Lets face it, the CNC machine will cut the parts better and faster. It's the next steps that make that method crap. The assembly, etc is meant to move as fast as the milling, so joinery is lower quality, hot melt glue is used, etc. It's production. 
But lets get back to the topic. I'm unsure if the topic is stressing Chinese products only, making it okay to buy a lathe from lets say Spain as opposed to china, or if it's buying foreign products in general. I want to say we buy foreign products not only because they are cheap but because americans are lazy. Chinese people love to work. They have one goal in mind. Family. Keeping their family fed and sheltered comes first and foremost. Americans think of themselves. They want that boat and to retire early. I know what my goals are. They are to semi-retire when I'm 45 so I can focus on furniture making and art. To get there I have to be a little greedy. Maybe charge more or lower my standards on cheap customers to save a buck. The unions are a very fine example of greed. They want want want. I don't want to pick on teachers because I think they deserve more but they get what is affordable through the state budgets. And yet it is never enough. If we pay them more taxes go up, and yet when elections come around these same people vote no on tax increases to save that money. It's a catch 22. Other unions aren't getting good health plans or whatever. The problem here is when their health care is increased to make them happy the doctors and hospitals or whatever charge more. This makes the increase in care obsolete. My point is that in order to get things back on track people need to be willing to work. Just the other day I had a comment on a post on a different site telling me to outsource to save costs. That's my point exactly. It's easier for people to outsource and wait for delivery then it is for them to make the product. If we stopped outsourcing we could keep employees working, make nicer products, and be able to make them quicker because we would have help that is experienced. With outsourcing you aren't educating people how to make products or even be responsible enough to work. People are expecting other people to do the work because they can't. There's carpenters here that are licensed cabinetmakers but all they want to do is bid the job and outsource it to another company. Why? Because they don't have a shop, tools, employees, experience, etc. This means the system failed and this company shouldn't even be in business. These people are the ones lowering the pricing to get the work, then finding the cheapest company, companies that don't have legal workers, workers comp, insurance, etc to make the products. The consumers are getting a crap job because of this. So, that means that even though the product was made in america it was still crap because it was built by inexperienced workers from a company that shouldn't be in business. 
Everyone has the right to work I know. But it's retarded to say that China's products are crap when products made in shops here are as bad or worse. The people making the products over there know how to do their jobs and have the experience to do the work. As opposed to here employers are hiring people with 3rd grade educations from mexico because of the greed factor I talked about above.
If americans had half the heart and spunk they claim we wouldn't have a recession. There would be more people working, higher educated people, better quality products, etc. America is the land of the Hypocrit, lazy, greedy, self centered hypocrits. And until we come to that realization China will prevail.
We complain about foreign products, how crappy they are, etc. But we (Americans as a whole)will go to target and walmart to buy them. 
Sorry if I offended anyone. These are my thoughts and opinions only and are not meant to be directed to anyone. I apologize if I said anything that was out of line or rude. Don't hate me because I'm beautiful, hate me because you're not. LOL


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## juniorjock (Feb 3, 2008)

I agree with just about everything you said kolwdwrkr (except for the beautiful thing).... but, as an American too, I think as far as this site goes, we are among the foreigners.
- JJ


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## kolwdwrkr (Jul 27, 2008)

Some of the best woodworking I've seen comes from around the world. That's what's great about this site. There are people sharing their work, thoughts, and tips with us, in turn making us better woodworkers. The bottom line to this topic is that it's all "BUSINESS". And until we stop supplying China with our business, and relying on them to make goods we can afford, it will remain good business for them.


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## ChuckM (May 12, 2008)

When we complain about the poor quality of China-made products (many of them are), we must first ask ourselves this question: why do American or Canadian or European, etc. importers accept them? The answer is the demand is there. Huge demand. The same reason why there're so many illegal Mexicans living AND working here. As long as long demand for poor quality dies, so will the supply of poor quality goods from China or Asia. Harbor Freight could survive because thousands and thousands of American customers support the company. We cannot but admit that not all goods from China are bad for their prices. Wal-Mart sells mostly Made-in-China goods but it has a quality control program that's not the worst. Personally, I pay top prices for things that I think I'm willing to pay but for day to day things I go for (lower) prices. For example, I drive a top-end Japanese car for its quality and reliability and wouldn't even touch a Korea-made car (sorry to say no more North American cars - my last FORD car didn't last beyond the 7th year and all kinds of problems came up costing thousands of dollars each year). Yes, it's tough to find so many non-US products in the market but we can't be sure our USA products are of good quality anymore.


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## Jojo (Jul 11, 2007)

Maybe we in the first world are asking too much?

*Fast, Good or Cheap. Pick two.*

The Designers Holy Triangle! When creating a project, clients must choose only two out of the three options. They can't have it all. It's a reality of life, clients must deal with it.

Good + Fast = Expensive

Choose good and fast and we will postpone every other job, cancel all appointments and stay up 25-hours a day just to get your job done. But, don't expect it to be cheap.

Good + Cheap = Slow

Choose good and cheap and we will do a great job for a discounted price, but be patient until we have a free moment from paying clients.

Fast + Cheap = Inferior

Choose fast and cheap and expect an inferior job delivered on time. You truly get what you pay for, and in our opinion this is the least favorable choice of the three.

On a side note, actually *Dick*, the labor costs here in Japan are incredibly cheap, thus you find redundant people working everywhere. You go to put gas and in each gas station they have at least two old men whose only job is to stop walkers and bikers on the sidewalk as well as oncoming traffics so you can pull out back on the road. In every mall parking (they are usually 3 to 5 stories tall) you'll find an old men at each end of the ramps and some scattered around directing traffic and "helping" you to park. It is amazing how they pull it off, specially because wages here are quite high and cost of life very cheap.


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## juniorjock (Feb 3, 2008)

I received this in an email the other day. Very Interesting.
-JJ

SHIP FROM CHINA - The Emma Maersk 
What a ship….no wonder 'Made in China' is displacing North American 
goods big time with this floating continent transporting goods across 
the Pacific in 4 days, no less!!! 









This is how Wal-Mart gets all its stuff from China. Get a load of this 
ship! 
15,000 containers and a 207' beam! And look at the crew-size: 13 people 
for a ship longer than a US aircraft carrier, which has a crew of 5,000

men and officers. 
Think it's big enough? Notice that 207' beam means it cannot fit 
through the Panama or Suez Canals. It is strictly trans-pacific. Check 
out the cruise speed: 31 knots means the goods arrive 4 days before the 
typical container ship (18-20 knots) on a China-to-California run. So 
this behemoth is hugely competitive when carrying perishable goods.

This ship was built in five sections. The sections floated together and 
then welded. The command bridge is higher than a 10-story building and 
has 11 cargo crane rigs that can operate simultaneously.

Additional info: 
First Trip - Sept. 08, 2006 
Construction cost - US $145,000,000+ 
Silicone painting applied to the ship bottom reduces water resistance 
and saves 317,000 gallons of diesel per year

Editorial Comment! A recent documentary in late March on the History 
Channel noted that most all of these containers are shipped back to 
China EMPTY; yep you heard it right. We send nothing back on most of 
these ships. What does that tell you about the current Financial State 
of this country?


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## rikkor (Oct 17, 2007)

Wow, that's quite a ship. It doesn't go back empty, however, It carries a lot of US currency.


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## juniorjock (Feb 3, 2008)

I think you got that right rikkor.
-JJ


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## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

Quick call your congressmen and make them fill it up with handturned writing pens and cutting boards from the members of Lumberjocks!


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## SteveKorz (Mar 25, 2008)

I think Dennis is on to something….

... I'm still waiting for my order… lol.


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## rhett (May 11, 2008)

While it is unfortunately obvious that we cannot have a home and life filled with only local goods, we can make a conscious effort to support out own local economies. America as a whole has become a "throw away society", it only has to be or look good enough. You can be proud of your country, but you have to be smart with your money. Buy nice, not twice. America, like many other countries, has its strong and weak points when it comes to manufactured goods. It is my personal opinion and preference to buy American made products when ever I have the choice, regardless of the extra cost, but only if it is a superior product to what is being offered. That being said, until an American company can compete with Sony, Festool or any car maker, that money is going overseas.


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## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)

It is a global economy.

If everything in your house were to magically loose every single part, material, chemical or element MADE-IN-CHINA then nothing would work. Nuts, bolts, copper, lead, wiring, tubing, paint, wood and stuff. Just about everything is made in China and shipped everywhere in the world. Just about everything except dirt. The USA is a melting pot, but so is the the earth. China is corn and we are the peas.


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## mmh (Mar 17, 2008)

It all comes down to* VOTE *with your *WALLET*. Buy the better quality made in the USA. But what if the USA product is not the best quality? My family has gone out of their way to patronize American made automobiles and other goods, but look what they've done. NOTHING or very little as far as making the car competitive in fuel mileage, perfomance and safety when compared to some of the quality foreign engineered and built autos. You can't blame foreign countries if *YOU* are guilty of purchasing inferior goods and if the USA can't make better and affordable products. Not to mention that the labor unions don't help make things more affordable, although I believe the workers derserve a quality and safe work environment, but if you over price yourself, the consumer will go elsewhere.

I agree that it's a shame we import inferior goods from foreign countries, but who is to blame for that? Don't buy it, they won't keep importing it. That's not always easy to do when you have $10. to buy a hammer and the USA product is $12. So, are you willing to buy fewer items to get quality and patronize the USA made product?

Personally I don't trust Chinese goods of today, as they are made cheap for what they are paid to make. Junk. They can make quality if you want to pay for quality. The buyers contact them and want cheap, fast, look alikes. They make what they are asked to. I don't trust the Chinese government either, as look how they handled the SARS epidemic. Denial. I had to cancel a trip in 2003 and went in 2004 with my eyes wide open as to how they were willing to deceive not only the outside world, but their own people to cover up this disaster. The USA is not perfect, but we do have a freedom of speech that few other countries can compare.

Again, if you want a bargain and shop at Walmart, Target, any store USA that supplies foreign made goods because they are cheap, then YOU are the guilty party here. I was appalled to see that most of Martha Stewarts goods were NOT made in the USA. That's because she's catering to middle America who want disposable fashion at affordable prices. So, don't blame a foreign country for trying to cash in on the glutton of a consumer nation (US).

We are so spoiled it's embarrassing when you go abroad. I was touring the Yangste River with my Dad and we stopped for a day excursion to see the local farmers who eeked a living out of the tourist industry by towing tourists in wooden boats up shallow waters of a stream layered with rounded river rocks. The scenery was beautiful with the mountains in the distance and the clean cool waters. The farmers were extremely thin but muscular and they ranged in age of 18-58. It took a dozen of them to pull the boat up stream by ropes and they really had to strain against not only the current and wet rocks, but the majority of the tourists (American) were severly OBESE. I estimate most weighed in at 250-350 lbs. each. My Dad and I were the few skinny ones. I was so embarrased to see these starving peasants hauling these fat foreigners up stream for a few pennies. At the end of the haul, they got in and steered us down the stream from where we started. All in a days work for them, as they made better money doing this than fishing for their meager meals. Afterwards we returned to our cruise ship to eat lunch which consisted of a buffet of more food than I am sure that any of the peasants had ever seen in their lives.

Now I love my country (USA) and I also love my heritage (5th generation American Chinese), but I believe we can do better. I for one will try to purchase quality goods made in the USA when ever possible. But they need to be competitive to the quality not just made in the USA!


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## SawDustnSplinters (Jan 18, 2008)

Sweet… Discussion…I think you ya'll hit the darn nail on the head 

"allow our home based manufacturing to leave North America, leave the tax base, and leave the workers behind."

Perty much in a nutshell…

Be Well….and God Bless…


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## daltxguy (Sep 7, 2007)

I'm with ChuckM.

The Chinese make whatever the world buys. Or more correctly, whatever the world decides they should produce. So quality is in the hands of the product managers who decide what products to produce. If people demand low cost/low quality goods, then that is what is produced. How could it be anyhow else?

Everyone is responsible for what is produced in China and to what quality.

If you really want to save money and save the planet from wasting resources, buy once at a quality which will last the rest of your life. It makes no difference where it is made, though.

I think most people might also find that they they really already have everything they *really *need if they didn't buy anything else for the rest of their lives!


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

Didn't the United States GIVE China a port of their own on the west coast, a former Marine base or something? For the purpose of facilitating trade with us?


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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

They should rename the ship "todadump"

Bob


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## woodworm (Jul 27, 2008)

Check back the theory of supply and demand, will "they" continue to supply if there is no demand?


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## pashley (Mar 22, 2008)

I guess then, this is mostly a statement, that we should see the quality of what comes out of China, and buy elsewhere, if possible.


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## Padre (Nov 5, 2008)

I think most people want to "have" more than they are willing to buy more expensive equipment. I have been setting up my new shop with all used equipment. Much of it old Craftsman stuff, when it was made in the USA. I cannot afford anything new, not even oriental stuff. But again, experienced woodworkers were pointing me to JET. That's Chinese manufactured. And how about Freud blades? Made in Italy.

Another point: When an American company becomes successful, they usually outsource or move to Mexico or South America….. to make more money. Trico wiper blades. The US auto industry imports over 70% of the components that go into their cars.

So where is the dividing line? Made in Japan or Taiwan is okay? Made in Mexico is okay? Canada? Belize? China?


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

if you picture the planet "Earth" and view the planet as just one cell. It's similar in that the actual skin around the planet is rather thin, the skin being the atmoshere and when you bust the skin of some cells, they die…................iif the earth is just one of a trillion billion planets…...........then…........I think we are messing with stuff we know little about.

who are we to say, being about 4% of the worlds population consuming about 50% of all the worlds goods …............who can do what and what junk is made where. I have bought as many shirts that are made in this country that have lost buttons that are made elsewhere. what some other country deserves or owns isnt really up to any country to decide especially when the hosting country "invented this credit crisis" and then sold the pure BS abroad.

Sometimes I wonder if we have the right to dictate to another country "our work ethic" is right when other countries are more willing to work more for less money….................which is exactly what I look for in an emplyee and find it harder and harder to find.

Instead I find people who claim they know a lot, they know this and they know that. They talk the walk and when it comes time to walk the talk…..............they almost always walk away. I find that most folks on this side of the pond are quick to blame just about everything and anything instead of themselves. They want a coffee, a few long breaks, workmans compensation and a pension. They deplore working late, they deplore missing their kids and loved ones and have a fascination with anything that makes then work less including instant oatmeal and the "Hungry People Microwave Fine Dining Experience" and somehow those same folks think that some one who will get up early, wont complain too much, work like a mad banjie, earn his and her keep ….............and doesnt deserve it.

I beg to differ….............

I agree with Socalwood…...........you get what you pay for


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## pashley (Mar 22, 2008)

Hey *Roman*, the US worker is the most productive in the world, bar none. We don't get 6 weeks paid vacation every year, like the Europeans.

There's a reason we're 4% of the world's population consuming 50% of the world's goods - we work for it. We're smart, we're driven. It's a testament to capitalism. We have the highest standard of living ever known. Being an American, I'm sure that's not a bad thing, right?


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## pashley (Mar 22, 2008)

Unions have been devastating for the American business. The auto industry basically has to pay "protection money" to the union, lest they have the Teamsters shut down their supply line via trucks. The "protection money" is insanely high wages for people that don't deserve it.

That's right, people that don't deserve it.

I saw a report not so long ago, where an auto line worker only has to twist on a radiator cap, get in the vehicle, drive it around the corner to the next stop, get out, walk back to their postion….and repeat. That's not worth $50k a year plus medical and pension for life, sorry.

People should be paid what the market will bear, period. No "living wage" or other "social justice" (socialsim) programs…in my humble opinion!


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

*There's a reason we're 4% of the world's population consuming 50% of the world's goods - we work for it. *

the earth quite simply cannot sustain it.


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## Darell (Jul 23, 2008)

Ok, that's enough! Pashley, with all due respect, you're so full of crap that your eyes are brown and it's running out your ears. Your anti-union, anti-american diatribe would almost be laughable if the ignorance of your words didn't shine neon bright in a dark sky. You "saw" a report about what an autoworker does for his or her living. Well, I can tell you from first hand experience that if you did indeed "see" a report that stated what you claim then the writer is as ignorant as everybody else that hasn't walked in our shoes. That's right, I'm a retired American Auto Worker and a Proud member of UAW Local 1999 in Oklahoma City. I can tell you from my own experience consisting of over 33 years humping that line that life in an auto plant just ain't that simple. Twisting on a radiator cap will only cover about 2 seconds on a time study and will be just one of many elements of that individuals job. He will not get in the car and drive it to the next station. Nobody drives a car until it rolls off the assembly line complete, ready for testing and then is driven to the shipping lot. I'll be damned if I'll ever apologize to anyone for what I earned as an autoworker. That's right, EARNED! GM gave me a job. I EARNED everything else I got from the moment I clocked in the very first day. Not only did I and all my UNION brothers and sisters EARN our pay, benefits and pensions, we also earned many little reminders of our years on that line. Little things like carpal tunnel syndrome, bad backs, pinched nerves, crippled hands, worn out knees from pounding the concrete all day and walking sideways along side a vehicle while performing our varied tasks, and miriad other physical reminders. We put up with the stress of overloaded jobs, layoffs, downturns in the economy, some of us moving halfway across the country in order to keep our jobs and maintain a good standard of living for our families, working toward the day we could finally retire and get relief from our labors. That, my friend, is the American Dream. We all work at whatever we can to achieve pretty much the same goals for ourselves and our families. That's why it burns my ass when people complain about someone else being overpaid and underworked. Just who among us thinks that they, personally, are overpaid? Anyone? Didn't think so. But everybody who makes less than someone else thinks that those who make more are overpaid. It's the nature of the beast I guess. For instance, I think that CEO'S and those in high management positions at all corporations and financial institutions are way overpaid and overvalued. How can anyone be worth tens of millions of dollars a year when the corporations, financial institutions, etc! they preside over are run into the ground and into bankruptcy? And then they get tens of millions more to guide those same companies out of bankruptcy when they were the ones who put them there in the first place. And people like you bitch about what I made as an autoworker and the bennies and pension I EARNED. At least I and my brothers and sisters did something constructive for our pay. We all did, and do, the best we can with the tools and technology that was given to us. Unless and Until you've walked in our shoes and humped that line, then keep your damn mouth shut about something you know nothing about.


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## pashley (Mar 22, 2008)

Oh, slaying a sensitive dragon, huh, Darrell? "Shut my mouth"? That's what you union thugs always say.

No, you didn't earn it; you're overpaid. You made over 230% more than what someone else does in a comparable job. Why? Because your union thug bosses threatened to put your company out of business if they didn't comply. We all know the Teamsters, the union truckers belong to, will stop bringing in parts to the automakers if they don't comply with union strong-arm demands. At the time, short-sighted management in these companies gave in to these thugs, since times were pretty good. Bad move. Now we have GM and Ford ready to go under because of the crushing costs of medical care for you (and probably your family) for the rest of your life.

I don't want to hear your whining, Darrell. I know guys that really worked, construction laborers, that earned a heck of a lot less than you did, and didn't have half the benefits.


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## Kindlingmaker (Sep 29, 2008)

OK GUYS! I too am a union worker building and working with my hands for near 35 years and I build and mod Space Shuttles. The average construction worker out here gets 50% more pay than I do. I don't care. The work I do I do the best I can and keep trying to improve each day. I have pride in what I do and as an American I try to represent that in my work. The big high dollar CEO's and politicians are selling us out but as a worker I will continue to do the VERY BEST I CAN even through lay offs and down sizing. Darell, sounds like our bodies have taken the same tolls for the same reasons. Good luck with retirement!


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## kolwdwrkr (Jul 27, 2008)

I personally like it when people go to a job that they hate and complain about day after day, year after year, when there's ample opportunities to do other work that could make the individual happy, healthier, and possibly with a better life. Yet they stay, maybe because they are insecure, conscious that if they leave they may not find better work. Or maybe it is the benefits, pension, etc. Maybe it's the greed factor I talked about. Nobody forces these individuals to break their backs for their wage, they just dangle a dollar bill in front of their noses and off they go.  Nobody is forced to do anything. Nobody is forced to buy a table from target. They do it because they are to lazy to make one, or to poor to buy one from a local builder. To me it's not about quality. If I'm going to get a piece of crap from china, why not get a piece of crap from my neighbor. Keep him employed. Realizing this would be a huge turn in the economy. Business's here could lower their pricing because there would be more work. Stop complaining about what you're worth, because if you don't the hispanics will end up with your jobs, earn less money, and never complain. After all, it's the greed factor that is keeping and letting so many hispanics work here, illegally for that matter. In fact, you can almost say that the product isn't really american made, just made in america.


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## mski (Jul 3, 2007)

Nothing wrong with free trade or the free market.
As long as it is on a fair honest level playing field.
Greedy Corps cannot be trusted , that is why there is a thing call tariffs ! also why now there is no such thing as the free market or free trade.
Easier to blame it on the unions, the best quality products come from union shops, the safest Truck Drivers are union (look it up FMCSA)


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## BigCM (Mar 13, 2008)

pashley: 52.5% of percents are made up on the spot.


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## kolwdwrkr (Jul 27, 2008)

So now we are generalizing. Great. So the best quality products come from union shops? Is this falling into the 52.5% of percents as being made up on the spot? I'm assuming it may be more like 85% made up on the spot. It's like saying my work is better then yours, just ask my union rep. PPPPFFFTTTT.


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## mski (Jul 3, 2007)

Not generalizing, Alot of #1 work IS created from non union workers for sure BUT!!!! saying union workers ALL are lazy and not productive just proves someone has no grip on reality!!!!
BIG Corp's are GREEDY!!!! someone has to stand up to them.
Or should we all work for $1 a day and build for Harbor Frieght!!
I don't know why I get into these debates, heck Patrick doesn't even have a job!!!
BUT knows everything about it !!!!!!!


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## pashley (Mar 22, 2008)

I don't think anyone is saying all union workers are non-productive and lazy; but you know as well as I do certain "liberties" are often taken by union employees - which have union stewards to back them up.

I know. I was in a union is a cheese shop years ago. A union I was forced to join, if I was to work there.

I understand that corporation white collars can be overpaid; but who's to say how much they should make? Ultimately, it's a subjective call.

I don't have a traditional job, Mark, no. Recently, I quit a 20-hr a week part time job due to some trouble brewing with a teenage son. My job makes her job (and paycheck) possible. Also, I'm trying to start up a small side business in my passion, woodworking, to help contribute.


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## Padre (Nov 5, 2008)

Whoa, slow down, there's a whole lot of 'painting with a wide brush' going on here.

The big three automakers are in trouble not because of the unions, or the health care it offers to its retirees, they are in trouble because of corporate arrogance. The Japanese automakers, and now Korean automakers, have made 'quality job one' and done a heck of a good job at it. So now, because of the arrogance, the US automakers are trying to play catch-up. That is NOT a union problem. It is a management problem.

Do some union members take liberties? Yes, of course, just like non-union people do. But I don't see the UAW, or the CWA going to the government asking for $150 BILLION dollars, like the NON-UNION AIG did. The US automakers are now lining up for a government bailout too. Is that because of the unions? No.

I worked at Chevrolet for 3 years on and off. Mostly off because being the low man I was always laid off first. I never witnessed anyone not working hard. If you got sick, you worked, or you didn't get paid. If you got hurt, you worked, or you didn't get paid. You couldn't take vacation, because there wasn't enough people to man the foundry/line. YOu didn't get paid for the 2 week shutdown either.

On the other hand, non-union workers have a right to make a living as well. I do not agree with the 'closed shop' concept. I am more of a 'right to work' person. But I try not to generalize that this or that caused or causes most of the trouble out there.

What about greedy CEO's? What about dishonest politicians? The list goes on.


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## mski (Jul 3, 2007)

Patrick a housewife or father has the hardest job in the world (but most rewarding!!)
I just do not like big greedy Corps trying to make ME a third world employee!
Making the junk you are irritated by!
I do understand Unions have there down side and dead beats (very irritating I must say)but most union workers are quality #1.


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## LeeinEdmonton (Aug 5, 2008)

There are three evils in this world:
1) People in marketing.
2) Cost engineers.
3) Politicians.

Lump all three together & you have the equivalent of the non functional slack in the top of a box of cornflakes.


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## pashley (Mar 22, 2008)

You forgot telemarketers!


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## modestmouser (Sep 8, 2008)

I've been really satisfied with my Chinese-mfd tools…... I think most all of us have. That's why we purchase Jet, Grizzly, Powermatic, Ridgid, Delta, and on and on and on…

Check these guys out… they may very well have made your tools.
http://www.geetech.com.tw/sp.html

I cannot stand the misnomer that we're giving "tax breaks to companies that ship jobs overseas." the reason they ship the job overseas is because we're continually making our climate here in the US less and less conducive to business & manufacturing. Companies go outside the borders to save on salaries, yes, but also it means that lots of taxes are no longer applicable to them…. Don't hate them for trying to survive by staying profitable. They're just doing what our political climate has guided them to do…. survive at all costs.

I do find it funny though, that folks here in the US are expecting China to start restricting their emissions….. As Glenn Beck points out, they dip our childrens' toys in lead paint, and we expect them to care about emissions? How naive we must be.


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## pashley (Mar 22, 2008)

I cannot stand the misnomer that we're giving "tax breaks to companies that ship jobs overseas."

I agree. It only drives them offshore, where we can't get ANY taxes from them. My opponents call this "corporate welfare" - which it really isn't.


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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

I agree with Lee. 
We are carrying too many "middle management buffoons" 
They are *everywhere--*except China. 

Bob


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## mski (Jul 3, 2007)

Glen Beck is an FIRST CLASS MORON!!!! and Morman!! Rich one I must say!!
I agree with Lee Patrick and Bob on this one!
Just something I cannot understand when someone puts $$$ before humanity!!!
GREED is something I cannot understand.
The bigger they get the less they care.
But WE get washed down the drain!!!!


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## modestmouser (Sep 8, 2008)

mski,
when you say that Glenn Beck "is an FIRST CLASS MORON," are you refuting his point? are you saying that it's reasonable to expect china to care about emissions when they give us childrens' toys covered in lead paint?

Not sure where you get that he puts money before humanity, but it does seem that you have a bone to pick with people that have succeeded and become wealthy.


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## mski (Jul 3, 2007)

OK He is an IDIOT, Just like all the other brain washing talking heads, I myself take amusement in thier comedy , BUT Glenn has no real point just His wack job show that alot of Sheeple will follow, BA BA BA BA!!!
I love people that make it, BUT not when they do it at others expence


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## modestmouser (Sep 8, 2008)

mski, we can agree to disagree.

back to china, i'm quite satisfied with harbor freight. just like anything else that i purchase, I examine it first with a skeptical eye and don't put my money into anything that doesn't seem worthwhile.

i don't buy HF electrics…. they don't impress me much.
I am a big fan of HF hand tools. My 36" bolt cutters are no less capable or worse quality than the $50 ones at the borg. My $10 100' fish tape is no less a fishtape than the $35 one from the borg…. my $7 25" breaker bar is much more capable than the $25 18" breaker bar from the borg.

a lot of the items sold at HF are the same as the branded items we buy. I had purchased a 30gal Kobalt Oiled air compressor….. and darn if i didn't see the EXACT SAME piece at HF afterwards…. same parts, same wheels, same fittings, same everything except it didn't have that KOBALT sticker on it.

there's no reason a c-clamp needs to cost upwards of $5. $1 is a fair price, so that's what i'll pay.


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## miles125 (Jun 8, 2007)

America used to stay ahead of the curve of world competition by creativity and ingenuity. Now it seems we're hell bent on not being taken advantage of by such success and the inequality of outcomes it produces. Go figure.

We'll either figure out that class envy is killing our country, or we'll all be in the poor house while celebrating the achievement of "social justice".


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## pablodomingo (Sep 14, 2008)

What most people do not know is that the Chinese government pays for the freight for their manufacturing base to ship goods to the US. That is an inherent trade advantage that companies in our country do not have aside from the fact that people in China are willing to work for a bowl of rice and a place to sleep.

In the printing industry, we're suffering bigtime because overseas manufacturing in China is sucking the life out of our manufacturing base. I don't blame the consumer or the companies here because everyone is doing their best to buy and sell competitively. This is a policy issue and it comes down to government leadership. Just like in LA where I work, over half of the county is hispanic, and the rest is asian with a small portion being white. When I compete for a new account, minority business gets preferential treatment. Its such BS!!! The fact is, we're the minorities now and it patently unfair competition.

But, look at the string of posts here. Lots of whining about the problem but no conviction to do anything about it. Let's hope all of you who voted for Barack Obama get what you asked for. He promised us that he would balance trade internationally and focus on our manufacturing base. He's so full of it…but he won the election nevertheless. Personally, I used to buy cheap chinese junk when I started woodworking but I learned that everything I bought including that Harbor Freight bandsaw never gave me the results and repeatability that is required to do good work. Its a false economy. I'll gladly pay for the best now or wait for good old iron to show up and refurb it. Our grandfathers were right about having pride in this country.


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## LeeinEdmonton (Aug 5, 2008)

There is one aspect of the so-called global economy that the ordinary guy has to be alert to. Namely, it breeds greed, which in turn leads to shady corporate accounting in order to meet analysts projections which I might also note is that most analysts have their heads up their a** & know nothing about running a business. Governments get into the act by reporting "core inflation" which is company costs & not "cost of living" which the consumer operates at. As a consumer I don't give a damn that X Company has lowered its costs by going off shore. What I care about is Government claiming low inflation rates due to X Company lowering it's costs when in fact the inflation endured by the consumer is considerably greater. The Government then uses the phoney inflation rate to support low bank interest rates. This in turn causes Business & individuals to borrow heavily….many beyond any hope of being able to repay. Result….recession. Now the bad part. Global recession results because of a global economy. Easy credit was a major cause of the current problem. Governments are now rushing to shore up & make credit available. What are these jerks trying to do….push what is now a recession into a full blown world depression ????


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## Bureaucrat (May 26, 2008)

A lot has been said here and, unless I missed it, no has blamed the liberal left media yet. I'm sure we can find a piece of this for them too.
BTW: my grandfather always told me it was poor craftsman who blames his tools.


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## juniorjock (Feb 3, 2008)

pablodomingo,

Could you explain a little on how China is hurting the US printing industry? Are you saying there's just less being made in the USA and more in China, and the demand for printing packages, boxes, etc. has decreased in the USA? I'm not trying to fuss or anything. Just interested.
-JJ


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## pablodomingo (Sep 14, 2008)

There is far more open capacity now in the US as a result of the outsourcing being done in China. Initially, the jobs being sourced overseas were long run high dollar jobs and its steadily been dropping into the shorter run work. One example I saw first hand was with auto makers. Their brochures are printed overseas as are their tradeshow plastic bags. That's all work that has gone overseas at the expense of plants in the US getting that work.


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## juniorjock (Feb 3, 2008)

I see what you're saying and I'm sure this is just a small piece of the pie that the US is losing out on. I thought that was what you were saying but I also realize how the small print shops have taken a direct hit also. That can be blamed on what I'm typing on right now. Everyone has a computer and can do their small printing jobs themselves. If it's a long run, they can take it somewhere and have copies made. Thanks for replying.
-JJ


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## Woodchuck1957 (Feb 4, 2008)

EEngineer, couldn't of said it better. And anyone that blames Unions and Union wages is a fool, typical BS, blame the blue collar workers, and overlook the insanely rediculously paid CEO's that would sell their mother for a buck. A $700 billion dollar bailout isn't going to do anyone any good except for the CEO's. If the general population doesn't have any money to buy their products what good is it ?


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## mmh (Mar 17, 2008)

Has anyone ever gone in to a "Dollar Store"? Their buyers contact manufacturers to make an item that the store can sell for a dollar. That means, make something cheap that looks like a popular item for cheap! They don't care about the ethics of "Made In The USA", just cheap goods that we will buy. Same goes all over, so the next time you pick something up to purchase, look for the MADE IN THE USA label before considering your purchase.

I went to Home D yesterday and did just that. I was anticipating not being able to purchase an item or two because I thought there would be a lot of foreign goods. Fortunately, and to my delight, all items I needed were labled "MADE IN THE USA". Now I just hope they last.


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## pashley (Mar 22, 2008)

"And anyone that blames Unions and Union wages is a fool, typical BS, blame the blue collar workers, and overlook the insanely rediculously paid CEO's that would sell their mother for a buck."

*Woodchuck1957,* labor costs are almost always the largest cost of doing business, especially for the auto workers. When you have to spend *1 billion a year on health care costs on retired people*, that dwarfs the $8.5 million total compensation the CEO of GM made last year (source)


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## Bureaucrat (May 26, 2008)

This was in the Milwaukee pres today This is the 1st few paragraphs
*Overseas factories lose edge* Cost benefits to leaving U.S. lessening, report says_

By Rick Barrett of the Journal Sentinel
Posted: Nov. 13, 2008

Costs that hamper the competitiveness of U.S. manufacturers have fallen in recent years compared with those of foreign producers, an industry group in Washington, D.C., said Thursday.
The National Association of Manufacturers reported that structural costs, which include expenses such as health care, taxes and environmental cleanup issues, have fallen since 2003 relative to the United States' nine largest trading partners.
U.S. manufacturers now face a 17.6% disadvantage because of the structural costs, down from 22.4% in 2003 and 31.7% in 2006, according to the study that compared the U.S. with Canada, Japan, Germany, Korea and the United Kingdom.
In some cases, companies have returned work to the United States that was done overseas. That's happened at Wisconsin firms including Regal Ware, a Kewaskum-based cookware manufacturer.
Regal Ware has brought almost all of its production back to Wisconsin after using contract manufacturers in China for a small percentage of its products.


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

bottom line

the average white collar worker in any other country much off the G8 nations works 3 xs as long, could be better educated but is educated, wants his/her kids to succeed, sees an opportunity and grabs it. Works harder, smarter with less at his her disposal.

the average white collar worker in the G8 wants a bonus before they sign on

the average immigrant I hire from a country who isnt nearly as fortuante who I would classify as a "blue collar worker".................blows the home grown compitition off the planet. They are at work on time, they dont complain. ................mostly they laugh because they have a kick at the can

Step it up a notch…............woodworkers from the other side of the pond…............they are simply not so arrogant. They dont need "sketch up". You hire them and they instantly make you money. You hire a so called expert with North American "diplomas"..............they might cost you money big time.

This world wide recession was made in America…..........and sold across the world. And now the whole world has to pay for our arrogance.

Blue collar, white collar, race creed and colour….......................they are all poor excuses to play the "name" game

it is a poor craftsman who blames his tools


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## pashley (Mar 22, 2008)

An aquintance of mine down the road owns a "little" business you may have heard of:










Yeah, Sentry safes…you'll find them in Wal-Mart, K-Mart, Home Depot - all the major retailers.

He told me he used to get them made in China, and then have them shipped all they way back here to the US. Can you imagine that cost? He quit that though.

The Chinese were stealing from him, somehow, through accounting scheme, from what I gather.

Now, he makes them here again, in Rochester. Yup, Made in the USA!

And yes, he has a real nice house, and a real hot wife (but they are nice people though!)

If you are looking for any kind of safe, documents, guns, hard drives, I encourage you to check out their website, found here.


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## Woodchuck1957 (Feb 4, 2008)

I don't know how you can factor in a retired persons income and bennefits from an existing bussiness. Those costs should of been put aside and invested when that person was employed.


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## qerra22 (Mar 24, 2009)

Alternative energy sources are, I think,
and there is that direction which will deduce the world from crisis.
The epoch of oil and gas monopolies will end. 
_

steel sheds
concrete-molds


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## rtb (Mar 26, 2008)

Has any one looked at any of the new unisaw ads "MADE IN AMERICA' 'from imported parts'


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

A great Native American Chief said

"What ever befalls the earth, befalls the children of the earth"

I think he was quite right…..............thats why I have beautiful gardens and plant lots and lots of trees.

Thats why I dont eat endangered fish, thats why I try not to use exotic non sustainable wood products, thats why I shop at small Mom and Pop business's and thats why I buy North American made cars and trucks. Thats why I buy European woodworking tools where possible. Thats why I shop at the locall farmers market and thats why I buy my beef from local farmers.

Theres an infinite amount of reasons to complain and blame and for every single one of them, theres a reason to achieve and succed, to conquer, to find a way to reach your goals.

I vote with my wallet every day in just about everything I buy, eat and drink. My lifestyle is geared to support the continent I live on, the country I live in, and most importantly…...........my own back yard.

I dont want to meet my maker and have to explain why I didnt do enough.


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## Gene01 (Jan 5, 2009)

It's all a matter of choice. A long time ago, I chose to live as free as possible. I determined to not allow myself to enter any arrangements that restricted my freedom in any way. There have been purposeful lapses. (marriage, military) But, I've never been a union worker and have always made the excellent money that has allowed me to enjoy a bountiful retirement. Often I've worked along side union workers who resented my ability to earn good money, usually more than union scale, simply because I chose to negotiate my own compensation.

My path has not always been an easy one. I've refused a few well paying unionized positions when I really needed a job to support my family. But, ultimately the path I took resulted in better compensation, greater job satisfaction and certainly, the self respect that comes with remaining true to ones own deeply held values. And, the family never suffered.

Consequently, I cannot condemn anyone, or any company for making choices that they feel will benefit them. If XYZ Co. feels that they can avoid oppressive taxes and labor costs by moving out of the country, why should I condemn them? If ABC decides to remain in the US and can avoid financial ruin, more power to 'em! Or, when Jo Blow decides to buy a Tundra instead of a Chevy, or vice versa, it's fine with me.

As I said, it's all a matter of choice. As long as that choice is not coerced, who's to complain about it? Just remember, there are consequences to the choices we make. Some good…some bad. As an electorate, we've made some real doozies over the years. Many of which have led to our current state of affairs.

So, other than folks who applaud the government and/or union restrictions on companies, who really cares where the items we purchase are manufactured?

Folks, we can't have it both ways.


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## PurpLev (May 30, 2008)

*1st* and foremost - *stop the hate*. no need to hate anything nor anyone - it is non productive, and will get us nowhere.

*2nd*, make your choices and stick to them - *VOTE WITH YOUR WALLET* if you so choose to. if a certain product is of such low quality - it will get bad reviews, and eventually people will NOT buy it - and the market will balance.

I live in the States, but definitely don't think the US is the 'center of the universe' we're just another (large) country that among others. we all share our products with each other - it's called global market. some products are better while others are inferior - it is your responsibility as a consumer to pick and choose - so stop blaming the manufacturers for trying to appeal to some potential clients - pick and choose! it's like blaming an ice cream company for making a flavor you don't like , or making their vanilla less/more sweet/pungent then another - if you don't like it - dont buy it, if it's THAT bad, nobody will like it - and the company will have to redirect their efforts.

someone mentioned that the Chinese today are where Japan was - and look at the Japanese products today - they are TOP NOTCH! (and the US doesn't get most of those products by the way).

China is doing what it can to get ahead, and raise their standards, and it may take some time, some Chinese products are actually fairly good, and can stand up to many other brands. other's still need to be brought up to standards. negative attitude will definitely not help the situation. be constructive!


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## Kindlingmaker (Sep 29, 2008)

I agree PurpLev. We should let each other know when a product is not right but not hate those that make them. If ya don't like it, don't buy it. I have been burnt on ply, I don't buy iy anymore from where I got burnt.


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## LocalMac (Jan 28, 2009)

It's funny to here people cry about China and say they hate their junk and the junk from other countries. What you should be doing is looking at your neighbors and ranting about them. They are the ones that buy the junk. If you don't like it don't buy it. Like PurpLev said vote with your wallet.


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

one mans junk is Chinas treasure

or maybe thats the other way around?

regardless

I"ve always done well with another mans junky tools

?


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

and quit slapping China….....its just wrong

get off your a$$ and work and quit the blame game

intellectual property is yours, and yours alone

maybe we shouldnt share it?


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## diggerdelaney (Feb 18, 2008)

I vote with my wallet don't buy American why well I wanted to buy some parts from your fair country they cost $29.95 but to have them sent to me would cost $18.50 I could get them sent from China cheaper


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## marcb (May 5, 2008)

"Has any one looked at any of the new unisaw ads "MADE IN AMERICA' 'from imported parts'"

There are a few imported parts in the new Unisaw, but it is hard to find them.

The castings and machine work on the castings are done in Wisconsin.
The Marathon motor is produced in Missouri
The Cabinet itself is produced in Jackson, along with the Fence

That basically leaves the plastic motor cover on the side, the switch and the fasteners that may or may not be imported.


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