# Retaining Wall Question



## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I'm wondering if I can tap the collective brain power of LJ to find a definition of the grade differential required to determine when a concrete block fence becomes a retaining wall? Obviously one cannot continue to pile dirt on one side to the top of a 6 foot fence and still call it a fence can they? What is a reasonable grade differential? The local building department does not seem know and I have not been able to find much on line about the construction of concrete block fences and the footings or foundations required.

Here in the Seattle Tacoma area, geologists have predicted the odds of a magnitude 9 or greater quake in the next 50 years at 10 to 14% and an 8 or greater at 37%. This is due to the Cascadia quakes. The last one on January 26, 1700 is thought to be #7 on the all time biggest quake list.

In the mid 90s geologists thought we are due any day because the coast line has pushed up 3.5 meters since 1700. They believed it is higher than it has ever been. When the coast from Eureka to Victoria drops 15 feet, I'm thinking they will be wondering what happened in Boise or maybe even Cheyenne when it happens.

The reason for my curiosity is a neighbor built a concrete block wall 6 feet high and piled 4' of fill against it at one end. This wall has no footing or foundation. The based he poured to start the block work is just a few inches (less than 6) into the soil. I have no experience or expertise in this area, but we generally bury electrical poles a minimum of 25% of their height. It does not seem reasonable to me to allow a 6 foot high, 175 foot long, 35 ton concrete slab to stand on edge in a residential area between 2 houses in earth quake country expecting a 9 or greater quake any day. It would seem prudent to use a foundation or footing to prevent lateral slippage and tipping, would it not? Any comments?


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## NDakota (Mar 2, 2014)

I will bet it falls over long before any earthquake hits! That is far to much fill on one side of any wall. I'v been in construction for over 30yrs, a lot of retaining walls, and I know that wouldnt pass inspection in ND.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

The dirt against it is only about 40' and tapers down from 4'. I don't see how it can be stable other than 35 tons is hard to move ;-) I'm assuming the reason I can't find a definition for the grade differential is the code panel thinks no one would be stupid enough to allow or do this!!


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

Hello, old friend. There is nothing (no aspect) right about that "retaining wall".

Where I am (Lee County Georgia), we would be required to install steel rebar reinforced footers and vertical rebar into the block, then the block would have to be concrete filled. Codes and practices vary from one area to another, but nowhere would a non-footer hollow block without additional reinforcement be allowed or wise in any case.

Fodder for your cause (and this should be enough):

http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/planning/linkservid/13A0F0AE-BC5D-C6C1-DBEA420103745648/showMeta/0/

http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/dpwes/publications/retainingwall/details.pdf

Dangerous is the word I come up with!

Kindly

David Grimes


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Thanks David, I see the requirement on the second drawing is a minimum 24" deep footing. I can only believe the building inspector that talked to him was totally incompetent!


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## stefang (Apr 9, 2009)

I agree that it will eventually fall over Bob. That is a very dangerous wall. I have read in the English news several times where walls with inadequate footings have collapsed towards the sidewalk and killed people, children among them, and these were not even being used as retaining walls. You have very good reason for concern.


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## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

I would worry about it. Can you talk to the building inspector and also find out what the code is for your area? That is the place to start.

Are you on good enough terms to talk to your neighbor? I had a 6' by 140' fence put in between my house and a neighbor. He was most unhappy and called everyone he could to get it taken down. It was well v within code and it was own my property.

I think checking building codes is you best chance of getting something done.

Good Luck with this


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## firefighterontheside (Apr 26, 2013)

In this area anything over 4' has to be engineered and have support from the back. That usually means mesh that is built into the wall and then back filled on top of it to help support the wall. Is this a cinder block wall or a wall built with actual retaining wall blocks. If it's retaining wall blocks, I'd say it's fine. If it's plain old concrete blocks, I'd say it will fail pretty quickly and before the earth quake.


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## dontrushme (Jul 23, 2012)

My story…
In the early 70's I built two retaining walls. One wall about 60' long and 6' high. Back filled one side of the wall to about 5-1/2' high.

I pored the footings myself- reinforced with a coouple of 3/8" deformed rebars; also rebars going vertically from the footing up the wall every 16". The first course of block was laid into the wet concrete. The rebar went through the block and the hollow of the blocks filled with mortar.

The wall was block faced with brick. I put a rebar horizontally every layer of block, plus a wire screen connecting the block and brick together.

The wall was about 60' but the center 20' section was offset forward about 8". At the ends of the 20' center section I put a buttresses going back about 2' at the foundation with rebars going up and connecting into the wall.

I puored the footing (with my trusty Craftsman 1/2 bag cement mixer), bent the rebars myself; I was much younger then.

The second wall was longer, higher in spots, but had some curves to it.

Forty plus years later, both walls are still standing just fine here in the LI, NY area.

But unlike your neighbor's wall, my walls have a real footing, steel reinforcing, and a couple of buttresses.

Also, I made weep holes every 16" along the base.


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## PaulHWood (Mar 26, 2012)

IBC Chapter 18 covers retaining walls and they all need to be designed, there is no height limitation I can find. If you are over 6 feet of retained earth, several seismic items kick in if you are in SDC D through F which I am sure you are. I have designed retaining walls and planter seats as low as 2 feet tall.

Two modes of failure are sliding and overturning for both a retaining wall and a fence, one loaded with soil and hydrostatic load potentially, and the other with wind & seismic. Block fence should have a footing. It will likely fail, but usually they do not fail catastrophically at that height. The soil load will cause rotation and cracking which actually will relieve the soil stress. It could also just tip over as a unit if the block wall is reinforced.

We looked at a house where the 3 foot retaining wall had rotated and the soil opened up behind it. The builder thought the solution was to backfill it again. Yes load it up again so it can rotate more?? I told him it was what we considered a structural failure and required more than soil to fix it.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

I found this on the Keystone website. I've made 2 retaining walls using their standard blocks.

http://www.keystonewalls.com/pages/products/Standard.html#

Keystone recommends additional trench depth for below grade placement of Keystone units on a ratio of 1" (25 mm) below grade for each 8" (200 mm) of wall height above grade (to a maximum of 3 units buried). This lowers the base course below grade locking the wall in place and also helps prevent erosion and scouring at the base of the wall. The base trench should be wide enough to allow for the Keystone unit and drainage zone. An option to a compacted, granular material leveling pad is to use a non-reinforced concrete leveling pad. In some cases, contractors find this is a time-saving approach. Walls built to a level condition on a sloping grade require a stepped base. It is best to work out the stepped base as the wall steps up in elevation. If a concrete leveling pad is used, the step-up height needs to exactly match the Keystone unit height. Do not use PEA GRAVEL for levelling pad.

I set a full course below ground and used 4' rebar on the end blocks and 2' rebar on each of the blocks in the base level. My wife thought I overdid it, but it hasn't moved. They also suggest you set each course back about an inch.
I put 12 inches of gravel behind the wall with drainage at the bottom.


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## hhhopks (Nov 22, 2011)

I would recommend going to city hall and get some retaining wall reference.
I believe most larger city has a code and would have typical / guide lines to follow.
I have purchased such reference document from my city.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I just lost the response to most of you ;-(( ;-(( I'll be back after a short cooling period ;-)


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## nkawtg (Dec 22, 2014)

I'd bet he never got a permit to build the wall.
Call the building code enforcement division in your town and have them inspect the wall.
They may make your neighbor take it down.
Sore feelings are better than the alternative.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Mike, thanks for that little tidbit. Good to know there are problems documented.

Reoak49, I'm on speaking terms but I think he is a bit upset about us continually requesting they park so we can see to get out of the driveway. This is an arterial street with a 35 mph limit. There is a blind curve about 75 yards in the opposite direction. One needs unobstructed visibility to get out without being hit. Especially when the occasional 55-60 mph goes by ;-(( My biggest concern is not being able to see bicyclists. They have a bit of down hill grade and can easily do 35 mph. With only 40 feet to react, they don't stand a chance when the view is blocked out to the fog line. He told my wife to go out slower. Going slower that stopped is impossible and one still cannot see through a solid object such as a Ford 150.

He doesn't seem to care much about public safety. He placed a row of rather large rock along the edge of the pavement. The public right of way extends 20' or more behind the row of rocks. I used to hear cars hit them occasionally, but never saw any signs of an oil pan being punctured. The city transportation dept didn't seem to care. I used to move them out from in front of the school bus stop and he'd move them back. I finally took a picture of the kids getting off the school bus and emailed it to the city. Some of the rocks were knee high to a 5 or 6 year old! The city picked them all up after they saw that picture.

Bill, It is 8 " concrete block with an architectural finish on both sides. The construction is consistent with what I saw block layers doing in buildings during the 45 years I worked on construction sites except for there not being any footing or foundation.

Ralph, Sound like your wall is more substantial in design and construction. What little I have learned indicated anything that deviates from a straight line adds to the stability.

Paul, thanks for the info. I believe the first and foremost issue I need to address is the definition of when a "fence" becomes a retaining wall by piling soil against it. My biggest concern is lateral sliding prior to falling over. If it slides much, it will definitely hit the house. Along the end away from the backfilled end, there are some trees planted that are about 20 feet high about 3 or 4 feet form the fence. He says they are just "shrubs". They look like cedar trees to me. If they continue to become full grown cedars, I believe they root system will put addition rotational pressure on the wall. Do you have any opinion on that?

Rob, These are standard x 16 concrete build blocks. Nothing like the ones you referenced. 
.
hhhopks, Unfortunately, be there and done that. I did not file a complaint. The fellow told me if it started to lean, they would take action. My biggest concern is after a 7.5+ quake, when up to 50% of the structures in the area have collapsed, moving that 35 tons of concrete will be a very low priority. My little stick built house may very well rock and roll with flow and survive. That 35 ton vertical concrete slab sitting on top of the ground will be coming down in one form or another. Masonry structures are the first to go in big quakes ;-(

nkawtg, I'm not sure one was required for the fence he told them he was building. But he has certainly exceeded what they said he was allowed to do at the time.

I just thought I'd throw this out and get a little more info and maybe a few more brain storming ideas to present to the building department at city hall. When he started pouring the slab to base the first course of blocks, I asked what he was building. He said a retaining wall. That didn't sound like a very good idea to me. There was no change of elevation to retain. The city told me a retaining wall required 5' set back and a footing. They came out to see it and he told them it was just a fence. The first 20 feet at the street end could only be 4' feet high; 6 foot for the remainder. After the house was built, he started landscaping. He added 2 more courses of block to the 4 foot end and piled 4 feet of dirt by his driveway.

Robert Frost wrote "Good fences make good neighbors." I'm not so sure about this one? ;-((










Here is what it sets one


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## ElChe (Sep 28, 2014)

Not to worry. The chain link fence will hold it up. Can I put my Jack Russell Terrorist's dog house next to the fence? Just kidding.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

> Not to worry. The chain link fence will hold it up. Can I put my Jack Russell Terrorist s dog house next to the fence? Just kidding.
> 
> - ElChe


I figured that old chain link would at least slow it down enough to jump away ;-))


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

I had to have 18 inches set back for my little retaining walls.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Thanks Rob, the more ammo I have for requirements and precedents in other jurisdictions the better.

Last week we were at the ocean. Knowing what I know about the coast line dropping 15 feet when the Cascadia quake hits, I'm always aware of the escape routes and the elevation of the area to escape a 100 foot tsunami in case the roads are closed. It seems odd to me that there were very few evacuation route signs around Ocean City and on State Route 109. I guess that 8+ magnitude awareness brought this 35 ton vertical slab back into focus ;-)


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## bondogaposis (Dec 18, 2011)

If you get a magnitude 9 earthquake your neighbors fence will be the least of your worries.


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## exelectrician (Oct 3, 2011)

If he put fill against the wall then he should have also installed a drain pipe at the lowest point. This is a no-brainer must have, in the rainy north west.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

> If you get a magnitude 9 earthquake your neighbors fence will be the least of your worries.
> 
> - bondogaposist


Maybe, maybe not, It could be the thing at takes the north wall of the house out. These little single story stick builts do fairly well in quakes, but in #9 all bets are off. Certainly the chimney is a major concern. hope we can stay here. We won't being going very far. All the major highways will be closed by the bridges and over passes that will be down ;-(( They are all built to a 7.5 standard I believe. I doubt if they can be built to a 9 standard.



> If he put fill against the wall then he should have also installed a drain pipe at the lowest point. This is a no-brainer must have, in the rainy north west.
> 
> - exelectrician


That is a good point, but not much of a concern on this hill. Water doesn't stand, it heads to the aquifer as fast as gravity will get it there ;-)


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## Ghidrah (Jan 20, 2015)

Topamax,

Something to consider, 1st unless the local code allows for a property barrier to be built on the property line the wall is on the neighbors property. Dimes to dollars you will not be allowed apply anything to the abutter's wall from your side and risk fine if you do. Even with the current property owners consent, if the property is ever sold there may be legal issues unless it is written in the deed, like a right of way between 2 properties that may once have been split after purchase, (e.g., inheritance purposes).

Make sure your property insurance policy is up to date, your neighbor probably may not be compelled to backfill and even if there's no way to predict which way the wall would fall.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Thanks Ghidrah, I had never thought about that. I haven't attached anything and haven't really planned to but you never know what ideas will pop up. As far as I know, the fence is on the line or on his side. That might be worth checking out, but the surveys do not line up with the land here. One of my neighbors who had a dispute with a new development told me his line moves a couple feet depending on which of 3 datum points they started at. That is about 1/2 mile away. Another is at least 30 feet off with the street going through his front yard. I checked with an attorney. He said after all these years, the land is where the land is and the mess has to be disclosed at time of sale if everyone does not get together and grant and record easements to correct the survey data.

Unless the wall breaks, it cannot fall onto their property. There is 4 feet of fill against it between it and his driveway and the foundation of the house.

We have earthquake insurance, but the deductible is 20 or 30K. Standard for all those policies.

We had one about 25 years ago centered about 10-15 miles NW. It was about a 6 or 7 but it was deep. I remember hearing it coming. I hollered to the wife and kids, but it was here by the time the words got out of my mouth. No damage, but I remember 2 waves a few seconds apart going through the house about a foot high. They looked just like ripples on water ;-))


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## Ghidrah (Jan 20, 2015)

Topmax,

I'd go to the TH and find out what the residential zoning setbacks are for your area. Zoning ordinance sets the rules and regs for the location of fences and walls on a residential property which may include materials and heights. The most recent surveys would be the most accurate especially if one has had altered structure footprints or title 5 work done on septic systs. All new work requires "As Built" plot plan revisions, no more + or - logged on prints. As far as plot plans go the town hall is suppose to have copies of original PPs in their archives, if they're missing one should check property deeds at the county courthouse.

What way an object falls is relative to the direction of ground thrust. Hills have been sheared laterally, where ground was level there's a cliff or a new hill or buckle.

I can't ever recall getting anything over 2-2.5s on the Cape, and can't remember how many yrs ago the last one was felt; it's usually a feeling of vertigo for no apparent reason.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Thanks Ghidrah, I have talked to the city. Biggest problem is getting them to admit a fence with 4 feet of soil piled against it is now a retaining wall. Last time has been a year or so and I'm gathering facts for another attempt ;-) The inspector I talked to then has bouncing email for the last month, I assume he is no longer with the city.

This area was subdivided in the 70s. My property does not have an updated survey. I'll have to see if the one next door does. It was just completed about a year ago. The fence was modified and back fill moved in during landscaping after occupancy, so I suppose the city had finaled the project prior to that.

Ground thrust is an interesting point. I suppose that 35 ton block sitting on top the ground could be literally thrown a significant distance.

I have felt small quakes lying in bed for most of the 35 years we have lived here. This area has constant seismic activity, but most is never felt. I remember the 2001 Nisqually earthquake quite well. I had just had rotary cuff surgery a couple days before. I was sitting in my recliner beginning to believe what the doctor had said about it being the worst surgery in the ortho department. The house began to shake and I thought it was a quake and would be over in a few seconds. After about 15 seconds, I thought this is about enough of this! After about 30 seconds I decided I had better get out of the house! By the time I got up and headed for the door it had stopped. There was no damage here, but the masonary building in the area suffered.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

test draft edit: Sorry, test posted ;-( Heren is how to find the draft http://lumberjocks.com/topics/24243#reply-1754418


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## alittleoff (Nov 27, 2014)

With 6 inches of footing and 6 ft. Tall a good wind will take it down before long. Put up a sign saying. DANGER FALLING BLOCKS. 
JMO
Gerald


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

> With 6 inches of footing and 6 ft. Tall a good wind will take it down before long. Put up a sign saying. DANGER FALLING BLOCKS.
> JMO
> Gerald
> 
> - alittleoff


Most of it is less than 6" ;-(( Fortunately, the prevailing storms are away from me, but we are protected by a good stand of 50 - 100 year old firs. On the prarie it would probably already be flat.


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## davidcarp (Dec 12, 2014)

I completely agree with Paul.

I would add the following with the intent being to emphasize or add to his post.

If the CMU wall did not retain soil it is required to be structurally sound and almost certainly requires a permit

Generally local building departments require walls retaining more than 3 to 4' of soil to be structurally designed as retaining walls. I have, as a requirement of geotechnical reports, designed walls retaining 3' or even less, of soil.

This wall requires structural design and a permit for both those reasons.

A wall constructed as this one is would require a footing. If the wall did not retain soil it would need to be designed for wind loads, and in your area seismic loads and the design would include a footing. With the addition of soil backfill the wall would require additional footing width. The footing size would depend upon the wall weight, wind, seismic, and soil loading, and soil bearing capacity. The footing for this wall would likely be 4' wide, or greater.

It would be difficult to determine the eventual failure mode, even if we knew the specifics of the design. Given it's length it might exhibit several of the failure modes Paul listed. Most likely the wall will rotate and as it rotates it becomes more unstable. (as the wall itself becomes non vertical the wall self weight will contribute to the forces causing the rotation.)

You have a legitimate concern and the right to obtain some action due to the hazard this wall poses to your property.

The best place to start is with the owner, at least let him know your concerns and that you aren't going to go away. Given the expense of the wall and the cost of any repair it is unlikely he will repair it on his own. But you really have to start here.

Your next step is the building department. There are methods for filing these kind of complaints and you should do this.

You may not get any resolution from the building department. Not saying you won't but it is possible. Sometimes they simply don't want to get involved in a dispute. Sometimes they know the owner and for whatever reason they don't want to take him on. Often they are busy with their regular duties and if they drag their feet this will go away.

If the building department doesn't help you will likely need to spend some money and hire some professionals, legal and structural. Sad to say but this may be what you have to do.

The wall will very likely fail at some point in the future. It would not require an earthquake to cause the failure.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Thank you davidcarp. The owner has been aware from the start and I will bring it up again especially since you and Paul have indicated it will likely fail without a significant seismic event. Is there a specific classification of engineer I should be looking for?

Unfortunately, after dealing with various gov't agencies about criminal activities, speeders going 2x the limit on a residential street and street repaving flooding my driveway, I completely and fully anticipated the issues you have pointed out and your assessment of the resolution prospects.

It is beyond my comprehension as to why the city building department let it go up without a footing in the first place! ;-((

Anyone have any opinions about getting an investigative reporter that loves to air these kinds of situations involved at some point in the future prior to hiring an attorney?

About a week ago they repainted the center stripe and fog line on the street here. Friday afternoon they tore up about 400 yards of pavement and repaved. This may be an indication of why the lackluster response ;-))


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## davidcarp (Dec 12, 2014)

Since Washington has the SE designation I would use an SE. However there are many civil engineers well capable of doing a good job. Most everyone uses computer programs and this wall is not very difficult to input. You might not need this work so wait until your attorney recommends it.

You can try with the reporter idea but while this issue is important to you it wouldn't likely be interesting to many readers or reporters. Happens every day.

I would not necessarily connect the activities in your neighborhood and the public works department with your problem. They probably do not even talk to each other.

I would offer this last advice;

1. Be polite, reserved, and articulate. Nothing hurts your case when, in mediation, the other side says I would have fixed it if he had asked. Or the other guy presents a letter (recording, video) where you saw something unwise, even if the guy really is a F'ing idiot. In mediation, even if you and the rest of the world knows the other guy is lying, they aren't there.

2. Be consistent and firm. Comply with any deadlines, respond to questions and issues in a timely matter.

3.. Take notes of conversations with your neighbor (don't get into a big argument, don't call him names). Proceed in a logical manner. Then talk to the bldg dept. fill out the forms etc.

4. Check with your homeowners ins co. If your house or property is in danger of being damaged they might wish to get involved. Check with your attorney, take your ins policy with you, ask him if the ins co has to pay your attorney. They may say they have no interest and your policy might say otherwise.

5. Have your attorney write a letter. Then have him pursue every alternative except filing a law suit. Sue as the very very last alternative. Even if you both have very good, honest, ethical attorneys, both sides often lose.

3. Be patient. Resolution could take a year or more. Maybe 2 years, maybe more.


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## putty (Jan 1, 2014)

I had some stone retaining walls put in my back yard. They average 4'high, about every 4' there is a 1.5" pvc drain pipe. When I asked about, they said it is very important to remove the hydrostatic pressure to avoid a blowout. I'm in Texas, I would think that would be even more important in the N.W.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Thank you again davidcarp.

I did not intend to connect public works with the building department issues. That was just a facetious comment on government agency and bureaucrat competence and inefficiencies in general.

I am well aware patience is a virtue in these instances. It took 7 years to get anyone from King County that understood water runs down hill when they flooded the driveway. The first thing they did was put in 6 catch basins. Only one would catch any water and was very little help. They were all installed several inches above grade!

I feel there is little to lose in getting the situation made safe. If we ever sell the property we have to disclose any deficiencies or hazards by state law. It certainly seems to me it is a significantly negative impact on the property value. I would think any competent home inspector would at least move a shovel full of dirt to see if it has any kind of foundation.

Unfortunately, I am well aware of the prospects in court. The malpractice retainer was way more than than I was willing to gamble when I was disabled with Topamax. The odds of collecting on bad debt in all my years of contracting were so low I figured I was better off to spend the time doing a job I would get paid for and I did not need the aggravation or grief.

putty, Thanks for your comment. This hill has very good drainage, but again I'm have no expereince or expertise on the conditions that could cause the fence / wall to fail.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I decided to go to the city and ask for the requirements for me to build a matching concrete block fence on the other side of my property. There is no permit required for a fence under 7 feet high, but the zoning limit is 6 feet with the first 10 feet of a solid, non-see through design being no higher than 42". This is what I had understood from previous discussions. I ask specifically about construction methods and support requirements. The building official began to explain how to build a footing, put in the rebar and construct a block wall. I said I understood how to build it, I wanted to know the minimum requirements such of depth of the foundation, width of the footing, ect. He said there are no minimum requirements, just use sound construction practices.

At that point, I admitted I had been a bit deceitful. I have no intention of building a concrete block fence, I just wanted to know the requirements to build one. I told him about the one sitting on top the ground. We discussed my past efforts and circumstances. He admitted it will be coming down. The soil in this area is very stable compared to the valley where the top soil is 15 - 20 feet deep. He said it would probably already have failed down there.

He said ever since he started with the city, all they talk about is earthquake, earthquake, earthquake. He was very aware of the Cascadia being over due. But, with no permit required for fences, he wished he could help me, but there is nothing he can do even though we both know that wall is coming down eventually.

He asked if I had filed a complaint. I said no, I had been trying to find out if there were any violations for a basis for one. No one in the past would define when the fence became a retaining wall based on the amount of dirt piled against it. They would not talk about the lack of any footing or foundation. Everyone had been a bit evasive in the past. He said that "landscaping" dirt up to 4' can be piled against a fence.

Bottom line, it is a civil issue until the fence begins to lean. At that point, it becomes a hazard and the building department will take action. The only violation is the first 10 feet have been raised from about 4' to 6'. I could file a complaint on that, but it would not accomplish anything except antagonize the neighbor. The extra height does not block our view of traffic like his F-150 or cars he might have for sale do when they are parked on the fog line. No point in being an horse's @$$ for the sake of being one. There are enough of them in the world without me being one too. I just want to be able to see traffic coming when leaving the driveway and not have a 35 ton concrete wall falling on my property or against the house.

Without any code violations, the I expect the prospects of civil resolution to be very low. Getting expert witnesses to testify about the deficiencies in the construction methods and attorney fees will be more than this house is worth! Finding a jury that understands the Cascadia Subduction Zone and the potential consequences is somewhere between 0 and none. Very few people I mention it to have any idea. I suppose the next step is to address it politically bringing this serious deficiency to the attention of the mayor mayor and council. In the meantime, I suppose the best safety measure is to plant a few fast growing trees. Maybe they can arrest the fall long enough for a controlled demolition to be executed.

Based on the geologist's stating the chances of the 8.0 or greater quake in the next 50 years is 37%, I calculated the odds of it happening on any given day to be about 45,000 to 1. Hopefully, there are enough days for the trees to gain sufficient strength to do their job.

I would like to thank everyone who offered advice and comments. They were very helpful filling in my structural knowledge deficiencies.


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## Ghidrah (Jan 20, 2015)

The part that confuses the hell out of me is calling that wall a fence. If that's a fence what do they call a wall?


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

That has been quite confusing to me too. Why call it a wall a fence?

From Oxford dictionary:
Definition of fence in English: noun ~ 1. A barrier, railing, or other upright structure, typically of wood or wire, enclosing an area of ground to mark a boundary, control access, or prevent escape.

Definition of wall in English: noun ~ 1. A continuous vertical brick or stone structure that encloses or divides an area of land.

The city accepted him changing it to a fence when he found out a retaining wall required a 5' set back and footing. I have searched numerous times for any standard or code for the construction of a concrete fence. Everything I found referenced a retaining wall, nothing about a concrete fence. Recently I did find this that mentions a concrete block fence. It clearly requires a footing with 25% of the height underground to secure the structure, not sitting loosely on top.

Obviously calling it is a fence spares considerable expense at high risk to adjacent properties. I do not know how much he spent on it, but he did mention using architectural finish on both sides cost an extra $10,000. I would have preferred him spending that $10,000 on a footing and proper structural strength. I could easily put up a cedar fence to cover his ugly block wall.

In another matter, I noticed he installed a propane tank within 15 feet of our house on the other side of the wall. Being and electrician with extensive experience in hazardous areas, primarily petroleum industry, I looked in the National Fire Protection Standards (NFPA) which the National electric Code is a part of. Just as I expected a 1200 gallon propane tank's clearance from a residence is 25'. The city said the code they adopted is only 10' and that it was permitted and approved.

In another thread here on LJ about running 220 power another LJ mentioned the IRC, International residential Code. I briefly looked at it and the electrical seems to be substantially less complex and the the NEC. I Goggled it and read a bit about the IRC group and the NFPA conflicts. The obvious motivation looks eerily similar to the effort by the "unorganized" electrical contractors fight for a training program that required only 8 hours classroom training per year instead of the 1 day a week, 9 months months a year for 5 years the apprentice program requires. That was obviously a cheap labor motivation with training tradesmen a secondary consideration if it even is a consideration.

These asinine relaxing of standards that pose substantial risk to the safety and lives of the public are obviously motivated to maximize profit margins.


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## Ghidrah (Jan 20, 2015)

Early 80s there was something like 5 to 7 regional RBCs. The IRC is an attempt to take all the things required to make a structure safe anywhere in the country and standardize it. In many instances I think it will simplify facets of the trades. Unfortunately changes usually only come after something devastating takes place, like hurricane Andrew in Florida.

After that many of the roof structure regs changed for the better, By the beginning of the 80s the Cape, (Ma) already had hurricane bolts imbedded in foundations. However some framers felt they knew better and would remove them to make their jobs simpler setting the sill and box on the found.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I can understand the desire to simplify and a standardize. The little bit of the IRC I looked at seemed to be consistent with the trend of maximizing profit margins at the public's expense. That statement applies to most business, big pharma, autos, ect, not just building code. I may be wrong, but that was my initial impression. This concrete wall/ fence issue is totally beyond my comprehension. It certainly borders on complete and total incompetence of the highest order.

At some point in my 45 year career in construction, there was a new requirement to use bolts in the foundation. My dad used them on the farm in the 40s and 50s. I could not believe that was not a requirement at that time. I always went under the houses I bought to verify they were bolted down.


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## Ghidrah (Jan 20, 2015)

It's only at the publics expense when it all works properly. When it doesn't the outcry is always why was nothing done to prevent this when you knew how to do it. It's always the same lament. Face it the cost to built a house is and always has continued to rise, every innovation added to the structure has made our lives better. windows, indoor plumbing, oil, gas and electric heating. insulation, fire resistant roof shingles and shtrk. I can go on for a long time. All the laws written into the code are there to protect the home owner, the builder, the town hall and the insurance Cos.

You say your an electrician? How many changes have incurred in the electrical code in the last 50 yrs have not improved electrical safety? Remember the 80s when many states allowed aluminum wiring? Remember how many house fires were blamed on said wiring arcing due to expansion and contraction?

You'd rather go back to the 30s and forties to candle and fireplace fires, chamber pots and outdoor hand pump water supply?


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

> You d rather go back to the 30s and forties to candle and fireplace fires, chamber pots and outdoor hand pump water supply?
> 
> - Ghidrah


No, The point I was making is the business people (money handlers) want maximize profits at any cost including lives. I believe we should maintain safety standards.

Most of the NEC changes have improved safety. I can think of a few that were for political and/or financial reasons. Even some of those resulted in unintended safety improvements.

Most of the AL conductor issues were caused by improper installation. I still do not believe it should be allowed for small branch circuits nor in sizes smaller than #6.


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## Ghidrah (Jan 20, 2015)

I have issue with money gouging too, I've worked for and around them, not because I agreed with them but because I had a family and bills to pay, I did my best to become my own gen but never got enough work to maintain, sub work wasn't an issue.

Regarding the aluminum wiring, all the data I read pointed to the wiring shrinking over a period of time due to overheating. The wiring became loose at the connectors and began arcing, considering the elect box material, cover and shtrk that had to be some major arcing to produce fires.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

> Regarding the aluminum wiring, all the data I read pointed to the wiring shrinking over a period of time due to overheating. The wiring became loose at the connectors and began arcing, considering the elect box material, cover and shtrk that had to be some major arcing to produce fires.
> 
> - Ghidrah


It does, but those things can be mitigated by proper installation and maintenance. Most of the issues including fires in homes with AL wiring were from improper installation and using copper only rated devices on branch circuits.

I'm not supporting the use of AL wiring, just pointing out why it was such a disaster. Home owners will not be inspecting branch circuit devices on a regular basis, nor should they reasonably be expected to. AL is used for large feeders, ect at great cost savings and it works just fine, properly installed and maintained.


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## Ghidrah (Jan 20, 2015)

If copper rated devices were used and was the cause of the fires, where was the rigorous pre release certification UL like testing that should have caught crap like that before it was sent into the field?
If there was certification against mixed materials use then they were being installed by ignorant, inept or apathetic electricians and then passed by the local inspectors.

Early 80s PT lumber was the answer to so many construction problems. 1984, the developers of Promontory Point hired a huge architect from Chicago to design duplex and triplex townhouse units with a Japanese flare called for PT SYP to be used inside the units as trim covered collar ties in the kitchen and living room. After nearly 75% of the unit were framed and in the process of shtrk the Town Building Dept finally looked up at an exposed PT collar tie and lost control of his bowels, we had to go back and tear out all of them.

This is an act of the state and local building depts. failing to inform all the contractors of the issues with the material. Then placing the blame on the framers using ignorance is no excuse to deflect the true blame from themselves.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I'm not sure about all the details involved. AL smaller than #6 became illegal about the time I started or finished my apprenticeship. I never did any residential in those days other than half a dozen or so in the 4 years. It was all copper except the service.

UL has no control over that the guys in the field do. They are supposed to use items as UL lists them. What % of people really know their job? Any field? Nuf said about *gnorant, inept or apathetic* folks all the way up the career choice chain to the guy that disabled me with Topamax ;-((

In those days, in WA, residences were inspected for service approval and rough in. No final. I'm not sure when they reached 100% and started doing finals after completion, but I remember at some point, maybe about 1980 +/-, that was the goal. There were some jobs that were never inspected before that. The boys were out on their own recognizance.


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## Ghidrah (Jan 20, 2015)

> What % of people really know their job? Any field?
> - TopamaxSurvivor


OK, good point you got me there. I worked for many employers that at times operated way out of their sphere of expertise. But there were a couple that took certain jobs to extend their range and fatten their portfolio. They didn't walk in blindly like others, relying on background research as opposed to winging it on the fly.

The aluminum work went nation wide like a wild fire, (I think because it was a less expensive). The elect fires were all over the country, all build depts. passed them yeah.

This was sort of my point regarding the PT lumber, it was passed expediently and by passed more rigorous testing.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

It sounds like your neighbor is trying to get around all the regulations imposed by codes. When it comes time for him to move on, he may well have to correct all code violations before he can sell. He may also lie to the realtor to look the other way. I don't know what the codes or real estate laws say in your state, but in a state like California, anything that can affect clean title to a property must be reported and disclosed to any potential buyer. He doesn't sound like someone I would want for a neighbor. A retaining wall's purpose is to retain dirt and it's construction is a lot different from a fence/wall. I would suggest you document everything about that wall that could in the future affect your property, like what if the wall falls over on your property and causes damage. Worse yet, is the possibility that wall could pose injury if it were to fail.
Some property owners think just because they own the land, that they can do anything they want with it. They disregard the rights and concerns of their neighbors, a very unsocial attitude. He would be better off living far out in the country away from others where he can post no trespassing signs and vicious dog warnings and maybe even an electric fence to protect his land.


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## darinS (Jul 20, 2010)

For further information Bob, try googling sound wall design. Sound walls are what Las Vegas calls the type of fence you are describing. You might be able to find more information there. I know the first couple I saw had one from California Department of Transportation and there was one from the Federal Highway Administration as well.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

> What % of people really know their job? Any field?
> - TopamaxSurvivor
> 
> OK, good point you got me there. I worked for many employers that at times operated way out of their sphere of expertise. But there were a couple that took certain jobs to extend their range and fatten their portfolio. They didn t walk in blindly like others, relying on background research as opposed to winging it on the fly.
> ...


I meant people in general. I told my son when he was young that all he had to do to be good at his job was know how to do it. He said that didn't make sense, everyone should know how to do their job. He is a network administrator. Companies went bankrupt out from under him during the dot com bust. Interviewers would get a funny look on their face and not know what to say. He wondered what was wrong? How did he mess up? Pretty soon they would say they never had anyone answer all the high tech questions before and didn't know what to ask him next ;-) He's in his 40's now and he agrees. Most people don't know their job very well ;-(

Mr Ron, I agree with where he should go. He definitely pushes the limit. I could not believe the city did not have any requirements for a fence if it is concrete and weighs 35 tons and just sits on top the ground waiting to tip over. Every city has its SOPs and no one is allowed to deviate, use common sense or good judgement no matter how asinine, incompetent, ignorant, stupid or dangerous the installation may be;-(

Thanks for the suggestion DarinS. I did find some sound walls and lots about retaining walls. I finally did find a fence design the referenced the building codes and masonry design standards, but it has take me a couple of years searching off and on.

The biggest problem has been getting the city building department inspectors I talked to to define the difference between a fence with dirt piled against it and a retaining wall and why it is not a violation of the retaining wall code requirements.


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## Mahdeew (Jul 24, 2013)

I Don't know when this wall was built but I can pretty much guarantee you it will show cracks within 2-3 years from the day it was built.


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## PaulHWood (Mar 26, 2012)

On which type of engineer to hire, any structural engineer with a PE designation can design a retaining wall in Washington (SE not required). The wall would typically be designed for 2/3 of MCE (maximum considered earthquake). To say it will survive X magnitude earthquake is not how the code works. It is all probability based.

Also remember a 9 is a devastating earthquake with 100 times the power of a 7. Nothing residential would ever be designed for that type of shaking. Wood structures perform well because they are not brittle and due to the nature of using lots of nails have redundancies built in.

As for the wall sliding, basically the wall can catastrophically fail, but I have seen walls that on paper aren't close to working and they usually fail by moving (typically rotating) which alleviates the soil pressure and they come to equilibrium.

One last thought, building code officials are not expert in design or construction. There approval and inspections do not certify that something was designed and constructed correctly.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

> I Don t know when this wall was built but I can pretty much guarantee you it will show cracks within 2-3 years from the day it was built.
> 
> - mrjinx007


The ground is pretty stable here and there is no frost heave. It was about 3 years ago I believe. Cracks might be a blessing. Easier to push it back on them a piece at a time than 35 tons at once ;-)


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

> On which type of engineer to hire, any structural engineer with a PE designation can design a retaining wall in Washington (SE not required). The wall would typically be designed for 2/3 of MCE (maximum considered earthquake). To say it will survive X magnitude earthquake is not how the code works. It is all probability based.
> 
> Also remember a 9 is a devastating earthquake with 100 times the power of a 7. Nothing residential would ever be designed for that type of shaking. Wood structures perform well because they are not brittle and due to the nature of using lots of nails have redundancies built in.
> 
> ...


Thanks Paul, I realize Richter Scale is a log based scale and escalates rather rapidly on the upper end. Even though it isn't not necessarily designed to survive a certain magnitude quake, we still have seismic zone standards that have to be met in our codes in this area. Even electrical work has minimum seismic standards. Should not this "fence" have to meet that kind of standard? Letting it stand in top the ground to totally asinine!

While the hill we live on seems to be rock and gravel based and quite stable, we have a 75' cliff about 250 yards away. If this edge should give a little, the unpredictable ground thrust could easily force it into our north wall I believe. It is only 10 feet away.

Maybe my expectations are way too high, but I expect them to meet the same standards as electrical inspectors are supposed to meet. Have experience in the trade, identify hazardous and illegal installations and require corrections.

I seriously doubt we build anything here to 2/3 MCE considering the Cascadia is expected to be between 8 and 9. Our standard is only 7.5. I doubt any structure can be built for a 9.

I have set the ball rolling with local elected officials. Hopefully I will not have to hire an engineer to evaluate it. This should be a "no brainer" for anyone qualified to access the situation. There is no structure to evaluate ;-(


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## Mahdeew (Jul 24, 2013)

the ground stability is not a factor. The weight of the material sustaining itself is. If the erosion continues as you have pictured, the weight of the material will cause the cracks.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

> the ground stability is not a factor. The weight of the material sustaining itself is. If the erosion continues as you have pictured, the weight of the material will cause the cracks.
> 
> - mrjinx007


That isn't erosion, I just moved a shovel full of dirt away from the side to show how deep it base is and there is no footing or foundation. WE have a lot of moles. They amaze me at how they did through very hard, rocky soil. The little buggers are definitely a concern. It wouldn't take many tunnels to cause trouble for that 8" wide base.


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## PaulHWood (Mar 26, 2012)

"Thanks Paul, I realize Richter Scale is a log based scale and escalates rather rapidly on the upper end. Even though it isn t not necessarily designed to survive a certain magnitude quake, we still have seismic zone standards that have to be met in our codes in this area. Even electrical work has minimum seismic standards. Should not this "fence" have to meet that kind of standard? Letting it stand in top the ground to totally asinine! "

Yes of course it should, and why would you expel the time and effort to do it wrong, when a simple concrete footing would likely meat design requirements. Unless you have liquefiable soil which it does not sound like you do.

"Maybe my expectations are way too high, but I expect them to meet the same standards as electrical inspectors are supposed to meet. Have experience in the trade, identify hazardous and illegal installations and require corrections."

Yes, your expectations are too high, every electrical item I have worked on in my house has has code violations: no box, two circuits feeding one source, romex in conduit. Skilled tradesman are disappearing and inspectors even if qualified, which in SC many are not, can not watch the entire construction.

"I seriously doubt we build anything here to 2/3 MCE considering the Cascadia is expected to be between 8 and 9. Our standard is only 7.5. I doubt any structure can be built for a 9."

Again it is 2/3 MCE which is acceleration, not a specific magnitude quake. Highly dependent on where the earthquake is which is why there are mapped accelerations. West coast tends to have more fractured rocks and known fault lines where the east coast has solid rock and subterranean fault lines. Our earthquakes tend to be felt over a much wider area. Structures can be built for any acceleration you want, but doesn't guarantee you won't see higher accelerations. For someone to say you will definitely have a 9 in so many years is absurd. There is a certain percent chance of an certain earthquake occurring in a certain span of years. Historically, these earthquakes do not occur on a timetable. Also remember that study of earthquakes and documentation like climatology only includes recent history. All of the older earthquakes are usually based on damage reports and geotechnical information

"I have set the ball rolling with local elected officials. Hopefully I will not have to hire an engineer to evaluate it. This should be a "no brainer" for anyone qualified to access the situation. There is no structure to evaluate"

The onus should be on your neighbor to demonstrate to the city it was built to code. If you get some heavy rains and there are no weeps, your last statement may be even truer.


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## REO (Sep 20, 2012)

Hiring an engineer wont do you any good if the wall was built in good faith and according to accepted practice by the Local building official at the time. The place to start is with the LBO and see what code was in force at the time of construction. Many of the previous codes and the IRC have a section that deals with structures and the addition of unbalanced earthen loads. Not just for foundations or basement walls. The Directions for retaining wall blocks require that over a certain height an engineer must approve the wall for installation. A permit may not have been required but you stated that when you questioned the LBO he said " just use sound construction practices." Even though it may not have required a permit It may have had to be in accordance with the local adopted "code".The wall wont be hurled high into the air by an earthquake any more or any less if it has or hasn't a footer. Its tendency to slide is much less than the tendency for it to topple over tripped up in its movement even by the smallest amount belowgrade. If there is damage to your home because of it His insurance will come to play.
As far as Codes are concerned: The LBAthority makes the decision to adopt or reject the implementation of Codes. Usually they try to err on the side of safety and often will choose in favor of the most safe rather than what is easy or monetarily gratifying. Even OSHA often defers to other organizations for their final rule.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Thanks for your comments Paul,

No, we do not have liquefiable soil, but the Green River Valley a couple miles away is full of it. I to wonder why build it without a footing considering the cost of what has been built. I can only guess that since "cheapest is best", there are no city requirements for a fence less than 7' tall, he is a foreign import and possibly not acutely aware of the seismic potential of the area even though he is a general contractor doing residential work, and he chose to meet the minimum requirements.

I have never done any residential other than service calls and very small jobs when I had the time, but I concluded nearly every residence more than 20 or 30 years old had the electrical illegally modified by the owner or a non qualified handyman. A lot of residential work has been installed by unqualified helpers illegally used by contractors. Inspectors and enforcement officers certainly cannot catch them all, especially installation done without a permit. Unfortunately, I have met a few inspectors in 45 years that were not capable of being inspectors. The trend in the last 35 years has been to move towards more specialized tradesmen at lower wages and benefits. Additionally, wages and benefits have not kept up with inflation for the qualified tradesmen. Many move on to greener pastures. If I had to make the same decision I made in 1968 about being an electrical or aeronautical engineer or entering an apprenticeship, There is no doubt I would be in hi-tech engineering. It is getting very hard to attract the most capable to trades. There are a lot of reasons for illegal, unsafe electrical work. Even though my expectations are too high, this fence should still be a "no brainer" for even the least qualified!

Geologists said the odds of a 8+ in the next 50 years are 37%. Odds of 9+ are 10 to 14%. This is based on the Cascadia being #7 on the all list. From lots of info including tree ring data from dead trees that were growing the summer of 1699, they believe the Washington coast dropped about 3 meters in January, 1700. That had to be a pretty good jolt even if the estimate if a little high.

In the mid 90s, the Seattle Times reported a measurement at Tilamook, OR that the coast was up 3.5 meters, higher than they think it has ever been before. The cycle timing is said to be 350 to 500 years. It has been 315 years. That is the basis for the "any day" to "over due" prediction. We have 2 major faults, the Cascadia subduction zone and another where the North American Plate rides up on the Jaun de Fuca Plate. All this is apparently part of North America's moving towards Asia with the collision predicted in x millions of years. I believe there is little doubt it could easily be the biggest and most destructive quake ever measured by modern equipment.

I really do not understand all the accelerations, ect. I really doubt any structure can be expected to reliably withstand an 8 or 9 quake. I certainly expect the authorities having jurisdiction to make a reasonable mitigation of the risk. This well referenced document certainly indicates they made a big mistake. It mentions seismic loads, but is not for a specific zone. I suspect when the city "fence" standard was adopted they never dreamed anyone would build a concrete "wall" and call it a fence.

There are no weeps beyond the natural permeability of soil. Unfortunately, there is no requirement for a fence under 7'. It meets that standard without a doubt. So, it becomes a matter of definitions.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Thanks REO,

I am aware of some of the things you mentioned about local officials and code adoption procedures. See previous post. I believe they do err on the side of safety in most cases. This seems to be a gaping hole in that process.

I do not expect the block wall to be lifted and hurled into the house. My understanding is one of the the footing's functions is to mitigate the chances of earth forces scooting the wall laterally before it tips over. Considering the magnitude of the expected quake, it has to tip over eventually; maybe not in my lifetime, but the next owner deserves a property free of this risk. Even if they do not make him take it down or correct the structural deficiencies, the city should certainly correct their standards to prevent a reoccurrence in the future.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

The report is in. The structural engineer says the wall is stable as far as turning over on its own; however, it does not meet code specifications for neither wind nor seismic load due to lack of embedded foundation. It will be interesting to see what the city says. Engineer says it does not meet code requirement for a concrete wall, but the city says fences have no standards and they are allowing this wall to be called a fence ;-) Therefore, it must be ok to locate unstable 35 ton blocks of concrete in residential areas?

The larger questions are how many of these booby-traps are located in the city? Do first responders need to deal with these additional hazards during times of natural disaster? They will be overwhelmed in the first few minutes without negligently build concrete fences. How many kids and citizens may be squished under tons of concrete as they seek shelter near a seemingly sturdy structure? Even Donald Trump knows the difference between a fence and a wall and there is a difference! ;-)


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