# What A Friggin Jerk!



## longgone (May 5, 2009)

Yesterday I got a telephone call from a guy who said he and his wife saw my work at a show I did back in May and he wanted to know about a certain box he had seen. He said his wife is having a birthday next week and wanted to surprise her with it since she really liked my work. He asked if he could come by and buy a box for the occasion. I said yes, and he came by about 6:30 yesterday afternoon.

I recognized and remembered him when he came over. When he and his wife were at the show she really liked my Jewelry boxes and she wanted to buy one on the spot be he kept saying "Don't buy it, I can make one for you" He talked about how he is a contractor and builds houses and could make one for her. I can appreciate this because I will not pay anone to do something that i can do myself. He asked how I created the sculpting and I explained about the angle grinder and all of the sanding involved.

Well, when he came over he said that he told his wife he had built a box for her and did not want her to see it until her birthday so it could be a surprise. He then said on the attempts he made they came out bad and he ended up destroying them. 
Now the crazy part…He wanted to buy one from me to give her and wanted to tell her that *he* made it.
I have no control over what someone does with a box once they buy it…and I guess they can do whatever they want since it is their box now…*Then he said his wife has my business card and asked that if she should call me to tell her I do not remember selling him a Jewelry box*.
I told him I do not lie for anyone and would not consider that option. He was aggrivated but bought it anyway since he had told his wife the lie that he built one already. I told him *cash only"* and when he asked how much I gave him a price $200 higher that when it was for sale at the show. He was pissed but bought it anyway.


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## WayneC (Mar 8, 2007)

If he is lying to his wife about being able to make box, that is not all he is lying to her about….


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

what happens after a sale……………who cares.

A friend bought his parents a solid maple dining set which happened to be pure plastic……….I said nothing, as nothing would be gained.

I put a garden in for a friend, lots of hostas, perrenials, his wife said "Look what a beautiful garden my husband made for me……….I said nothing as what could be gained.

Happy wife, Happy Life


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## knotscott (Feb 27, 2009)

Glad you stuck to your principles. I laughed when I read that he paid $200 more than at the show….seems like justice was served!


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## jimr (Jun 15, 2007)

I would have made sure to have a business card or a brand or something in there so he would have got busted.


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## CampD (Nov 8, 2008)

I agree, justice served.
Take the extra $200 and treat your wife to something special.


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## RogerBean (Apr 25, 2010)

Greg,
It is the jerks that will always be with us. The poor, on the other hand, have potential.
Roger


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

You don't brand your boxes?

Anyway - weird incident.


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## Dcase (Jul 7, 2010)

Loren made a good point. You should put some marking on the box that you made it. Even if he does tell her he made it at least it will have your mark on it so it can be traced back to you as one of your boxes.


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## LeeBarker (Aug 6, 2010)

Your integrity is inspirational, Greg. My only suggestion is to change the title of the thread to reflect your behavior, not his. He deserves no more press. You, on the other hand, do.


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## tdv (Dec 29, 2009)

Good for you man people like that get right up my nose you should have put a compliments slip under the lid
for his wife to find
Best
Trevor


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## ShopTinker (Oct 27, 2010)

The guy would get a lot more mileage from the truth. That he really wanted to make her one and tried, making several, none of them were good enough to give her. He really wanted to give her what she wanted, so he found the guy who made the one she really wanted and bought one for her. That is a winning story.

I really glad to hear you tacked on the additional "jerk" fee to the price.


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

You could probably have charged him a few hundred for the "No Signature Option" - kind of like paying for an unlisted phone number.


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## WayneC (Mar 8, 2007)

I would have given her the failed attempts and then the one I bought. I'm guessing if I explained that to the guy I was buying one from I might have saved $200 or more… lol


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## terry603 (Jun 4, 2010)

just like a photographer,you don't want someone else taking credit for your work.

good read you had on the guy about the extra 200.00


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## cajunpen (Apr 9, 2007)

Greg it is very disheartening to learn that we have a jerk here in Louisiana, living among us. You handled him just as you should have. Well done!


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## RGtools (Feb 18, 2011)

Please tell me you signature is somewhere inside the box to be discovered later.


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## saddletramp (Mar 6, 2011)

ROTFLMAO!!! He got what he deserved.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

The only thing that would make this story better was if you had your name engraved discreetly somewhere in the box where his wife would find it later.


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## Popsnsons (Mar 28, 2010)

I think he'll be busted anyway. There's no way he can duplicate your efforts in your finished boxes. The box will speak for itself…unless she is really naive. Then in that case they make a beautiful couple.


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## Dusty56 (Apr 20, 2008)

I hope his wife's sisters / mom / nieces , want one just like it only in different woods…....what do you think the jerk would do then ? LOL


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## Manitario (Jul 4, 2010)

enjoy the extra $200; that guy was lucky you let him buy one at all.


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## KayBee (Jul 6, 2009)

Glad you added the 'jerk fee' to someone who deserves it! Now you have a reason to make sure that your signature is on all your boxes.


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## IrreverentJack (Aug 13, 2010)

*A $200 AGGRAVATION TAX!* You are my hero. -Jack


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## YorkshireStewart (Sep 20, 2007)

Mrs YS and I thoroughly enjoyed your story Greg. It reminded me of my story here


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

You may have a captive customer for life. Imagine what will happen when his wife shows off the gift and the amazing "talents" of her husband. Then his wife will say, "Dear, my sister would love to have a box like this for her birthday. Could you make one for her?"

Be sure to increase the price by $50 each time.


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## longgone (May 5, 2009)

Thanks everyone for the positive support and feedback. I knew i was doing the right thing because have no tolerance for someone asking me to help getr over on someone. I just is not right..
As far as what his wife believes..that is his problem…good or bad.

I always put a small laser engraved brass plate on the bottom of each box that has my name on it. I previously tried branding my work…bought one of those fancy electric branding irons from Rockler…but I somehow seem to get more of the branding messed up and half burned or unreadable since different woods handle the branding differently…and i can't undo a botched branding. That is when i switched to the engraved nameplates. Wanted something I couldn't mess up. Besides, when I removed the nameplate for him I can use it on something else.


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## DocSavage45 (Aug 14, 2010)

Guess his wife would be able to tell yours from another anyway as you have your uniqe character in the way you do it. If I could copy your work LOL there would still be a difference. Like a Krenov piece and the omage pieces?

Wonder how much BS he gives his customers?

Has the iron got a logo like a branding iron?


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## canadianchips (Mar 12, 2010)

My Uncle used to have a sign in his blacksmith shop 
"HOURLY RATES" 
$5. per hr if I do it. 
$10. per hr if you sit and watch me do it. 
$15. per hr if you help me do it 
and 
$25.per hour if you tried yourself first and couldn't do it !


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## buffalosean (Feb 15, 2009)

Its one thing for him to lie and tell his wife he made it. Thats all on him and his conscience… but to ask you to get rapped up in the lie, well, thats just flat out crossing the line. I don't blame you for sticking it to him, after he tried sticking it to you. I sign all my pieces, unless they want to strip it down, sand my name out, and refinish the piece, good luck trying to pass it off as theirs.


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## jonnytranscend (Jun 13, 2011)

Wow typical of a contractor though. These guys tend to not understand the difference of building a home and furniture grade items. I know because i am a contractor but I am also a artist/furniture builder.


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## Kentuk55 (Sep 21, 2010)

this world has got em all, doesn't it


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## rance (Sep 30, 2009)

There's all kinds of people out there. You did the right thing, on ALL accounts. You're a stand up guy.


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## ChuckM (May 12, 2008)

I hope the story that the guy had to pay $200 more is just dramatization. If it was indeed the case, allow me to disagree with many of the comments posted here. Yes, that guy was wrong to ask to you to lie for him, and you as the seller were absolutely right not to comply with his request. You had every right to tell him he was wrong or even refuse to sell the box to him. But why did you have to punish him the way you did, perhaps sensing he had no other options because of his commitment to his wife?

Don't mistaken me, I am not here to defend the action of the buyer. He started on the wrong course right from the beginning. But to make him pay more because of his situation isn't a much more honorable act in my view. If everyone behaves in a similar manner, this world will be full of people who judge and punish as they see fit. An eye for an eye rules? I feel sorry for the guy and his wife who are now $200 poorer. I do not share with the views expressed here in support of the seller's punishing action. The degree of punishment is out of line.


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## TimK43 (May 29, 2011)

I think the $200.00 Idiot/A-hole/Jerk fee is completely appropriate considering the situation. I probably wouldn't have sold him anything after he told me he lied to his wife like that. BUT I'm pretty stubborn that way!!!!!!! I would have told him "Good luck making your box, SEE YA!!!!!"


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## rance (Sep 30, 2009)

Chuck, I believe you are assuming the fee was because the jerk was in a bind. I choose to believe that the price at the show was "On Sale", later on he had to pay the "regular price". Or that it was well-deserved 'punishment' for asking Greg to lie.


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## rsharp (May 6, 2008)

I rarely reply, but wish to share my thoughts. I agree with ChuckM to the extent that I would not have charged the lying husband an additional $200. I have no respect for a man who would lie to his wife, however, I believe taking advantage of his situation for personal profit is wrong too.


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## ChuckM (May 12, 2008)

Rance: "I choose to believe that the price at the show was "On Sale", later on he had to pay the "regular price". "

The seller doesn't provide any info. on this and your assumption may be right or wrong. If the additional price was the normal mark-up, that was absolutely fine, but the seller was giving a different impression as he wrote:"I gave him a price $200 higher that when it was for sale at the show. He was pissed…." Not trying to split hair here: he wasn't saying "I gave him the regular price."

On the other hand, if he was indeed offering the buyer the regular price, all the comments singing praises about the seller's "action" have been misplaced. What did the seller do to earn all the applause? The $200 extra he charged was just part of the normal thing in his business. He just did what he usually does with a customer coming forward after the sale period. I may have misread his point or the title of the thread is misleading, but the pouring of support and encouragement really surprised me. In my view, two wrongs don't make a right. The seller might not be intentional but his course of action isn't something I'd endorse.


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## BobTheFish (May 31, 2011)

Meh… I don't care about the credit, but it seems to mean a lot to him. I'd refuse to lie because he was being a little b*** about it, and because he was too damned cocky and self sure at the show. A bit of humility would do a lot of people good.


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## longgone (May 5, 2009)

ChuckM…
I did the right thing by charging him what I did. I was not the one asking someone to lie if necessary and I most certainly did not force him to dig into his pocket and take out his money…he had a choice to not buy it just as he had a choice to be honest. He could of easily told his wife the truth and saved money and would not have backed himself into a corner. I believe that if someone will lie that easily to anyone, whether it is a spouse, friend, stranger or whoever then they do not have my respect.
I spend alot of time creating my work and can charge whatever I like and it is up to each person to either decide it is worth the money or decide it is not worth the money. 
I have also sold my work cheaper than my asking price to people I enjoyed meeting and took a liking to. 
Sales is all about negotiating and this just happened to be negotiated in an upwards direction.

Randy Sharp…No one was taken advange of because I expressed my honest thoughts to him and he made the decision buy instead of walking away. There was no lies on my part. *I stand up for what I believe.*


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## ChuckM (May 12, 2008)

Grey: You haven't clarified whether you charged the guy $200 more because he intended to lie. As a seller, you're free to charge any price you think your work is worth. The impression of your first post and many of the responses to it, however, seem to be suggesting that the $200 extra was levied simply because this guy wanted to "cheat."

For the record, I do not condone the guy's action nor did I suggest your work be worth anything more or anything less. If you were just selling the box to him at the regular price, you might have sent a different message in your story.

Also, if a potential customer is a jerk, I, as some have expressed so too, will exercise my right as a seller not to sell. Of course, that's me only-and every seller has his or her own considerations.


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## Tootles (Jul 21, 2011)

Perhaps the $200 should be seen as the fee for performing a particularly onerous service - that of removing the brass plate from the bottom. After all, the plate is Greg's advertising for future business. Without it there, he is potentially losing future work and so he should make the greatest possible profit up front on this box.


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

It is juts pure capitalism. A seller sets the price for each individual potential buyer at the maximum he believes that individual will pay.

Did you ever have to buy a bottle of water at an airport now that they won't let you bring it in from outside the security zone?


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Pretty slimy. You can bet that's not the only turd-like quality he possesses.


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## Rockbuster (Apr 5, 2011)

ONLY 200 !!!!!! Betcha couda got 3


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## ChuckM (May 12, 2008)

Please reread my posts. At no times did I challenge Grey's right to set whatever price he wanted from the buyer. He can charge anything he likes; I am only openly voicing my concern about the views expressed by many that seem to suggest if the guy planned to cheat (one wrong), we could do another wrong based on his circumstances.

It's not an issue about capitalism nor about the potential loss of revenue. If Grey came over here and told us he charged the guy $200 more for extra service because his nameplate was removed by request or because there would be a loss of potential sale (as remote as it might be-the guy wasn't planning to put the piece in a gallery or museum for the public to view, was he?), fine. No one would think he charged the extra $200 to teach the guy a lesson (and that exactly is what it was based on his first post and that was why many sent in their applause). But that has not been the case. (By charging the guy $200 more this time, Grey was pretty much losing this customer for any future purchases. Grey might not care, but the point that the removal of the nameplate would cause loss of revenue is a moot point to try to argue that the $200 wasn't a punishment in any way.)

I didn't use words like overcharging, ripping off, or stealing to describe about the extra money Grey received from the guy. The guy did agree to pay that amount even though he was pissed off. If he had had a better option, he might have walked away. If he had done as WayneC suggested, he might not have had to pay the "penalty."

No one is playing Saints here. Even if I am a lone voice (the majority are in silence out of some 700 views), I have to point out that I don't go along with the notion that charging the buyer $200 in this case was something to be proud of or worth the kinds of praises or "congrats" we see here. And to suggest that this guy must have other bad qualities because of this one act or because he's a contractor is pure emotion and beyond logic. At least he was trying to do something to please his wife. The intention is at least honorable though the method is wrong. There're more gracious ways to treat this person and making him pay $200 more isn't one of them, no matter how we spin it.


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## pierce85 (May 21, 2011)

Greg, would you have charged him the extra $200 if he simply wanted to buy it without the deception?

My first reaction when I read your account was similar to ChuckM's. I found it odd that you would add $200 to the price simply because he asked you to lie for him, but then I thought that's one way to discourage a sale without an outright refusal to sell to the guy. If so, you should have tacked on a $1000 to clearly convey the point.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

The irony of this all is that if the guy had been honest with his wife in the first place and told her her had tried to make her the box himself but failed (and showed it), but as he only wanted the best for her, he took it upon himself to go out and purchase a box from a WW whose work she admired.
Now how many brownie points do you think that would have made…... and all the truth. Greg would be flattered, the guy could say he tried to make one personally but failed, And the lady would think he walked on water.


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## therookie (Aug 29, 2010)

And thats the way some of the people on this earth are. you cant do anything after the sale but hey you got your jungle justice out of it.


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## 1978 (Jul 8, 2008)

If you knew where the guy lived, I'd stop buy and return the $200 to his wife (that you over charge) and tell her you felt gulity for charging her husband more for the box.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

magicman: Best post yet!!!!!


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## DocSavage45 (Aug 14, 2010)

An interesting thread that is filling my email box. LOL This has struck a chord. Emotions, Morality, support and criticism. It demonstrates the diversity of the woodworker? And from many places. I'm wondering if Greg had used another word as the blog header if there would be as much going on?

Greg is talented, fortunate and works hard to produce what he does. Many appreciate it, others pay omage to it? And He is passionate?

I was suspect of the guy as described by Greg. I responded in support but I was also disparaging (sp?)

As I tell my clients (not woodworking) When I'm in the middle of it I am not objective. It's much easier on my side.

Greg does find topics that people respond to. LOL


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## Maveric777 (Dec 23, 2009)

As I have always heard throughout my life…. Something is only worth what someone else is willing to pay for it. With that being said I see nothing at all wrong with how you handled the situation Greg. Long story short the guy flat out lied to his wife and wants to bring someone else in on the masquerade. The man clearly decided to go down the wrong road….. You reap what you sow…..

Personally I would not have sold it to him at all…... But if I did…. I would of done the very same thing….


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

I find it hilarious that people are white knighting the liar, reprimanding the maker for a price penalty. I laugh about this frequently around here. I remember when not too long ago, people were white knighting Lie Nielsen for sending a guy a clearly defective frog several times. I was accused of being dishonest for suggesting compensation for the headache in the form of a free extra blade. Fight amongst yourselves. I actually sleep better for it, having had a nice chuckle.

Greg, you make very nice boxes. Keep charging everything you can get for them.


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## shipwright (Sep 27, 2010)

GOOD FOR YOU !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## pierce85 (May 21, 2011)

Al, who on this thread has white-knighted the liar? Show me.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

Years ago, a bunch of us guys went skiing in Lake Tahoe. Afterwards, we took the Virginia City route back to Reno and stopped for a couple of Brewski's.
My general manager was with us and we strolled into a native jewelry store.
He found a pair of cheap earrings for his wife, and proceeded to tell the girl he would purchase them, ($10.00), if she would re-tag them at $300.00!
So he gave his wife the earrings with the phony price tag. He actually let her brag about the set to her friends.
Talk about jerks!!!!!!!!


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## rance (Sep 30, 2009)

1) Refusing to sell is no different(or more gentlemanly) than charging more. Both have the 'reason' of punishing the JERK. 
2) You reap what you sow
3) Actions have consequences.

It couldn't be more clear.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Pierce, I wasn't picking on any post in particular. I was commenting on a subtle tone, perhaps in error. If I'm in error, please accept my apology, whoever you are. Just to be safe, I apologize to everyone if I was mistaken.


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## WayneC (Mar 8, 2007)

To me adding $200 is saying that I really don't want to sell this to you. The buyer made his choice, pay a lot of money or come clean with his spouse. IMO, the buyer had an opportunity to be a hero to his spouse and show her the effort and how much he cared. I guessing much of this was driven by the buyer's ego. By the time he got home, he propably had convinced himself that he had made the box.


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## TimK43 (May 29, 2011)

ChuckM *"At least he was trying to do something to please his wife."*

Are you kidding me? If he was simply trying to do something nice for his wife, he would have just bought the box without all the added stipulations. This guy was doing this FOR HIMSELF!!!! I hope it comes back to bite him in the ass!!!! Sorry but I cannot tolerate a liar!!!!

I hope that everyone she shows this box to, wants one just like it. AND each time this jerk comes back to buy another one, Greg raises the price each time by $100.00.

That's one problem with the world today, No consequences for lairs, cheats and thiefs!!!!


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Hey Tim, I just watched the movie "Informant" last night. You should check it out. There are liars, cheats, and thieves to spare. It's set retro at a Lysine plant. It's a good watch.


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## SCOTSMAN (Aug 1, 2008)

He doesn't inspire me a bit sounds like he is a real jerk lying to your wife is not on either I admire you for sticking to tht truth well done. you handled it very well. Alistair


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## pierce85 (May 21, 2011)

No worries, Al. My point was that I thought it was odd to tack on an extra $200 simply because the jerk asked Greg to join him in his deception, but if was to discourage the sale without an outright refusal, which makes sense to me, then Greg should have set his sites much higher to clearly make the point.

Of course the jerk consistently demonstrated his character all along by buying the box regardless of the price. I don't think he had any consideration whatsoever for his wife, just himself. If he had, he would have/should have done what Roger suggested several posts ago and come out a hero on top of it.


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## Bluepine38 (Dec 14, 2009)

Greg, I liked the story, I have followed your box building and bought the grinding/sanding disc, but can not
produce your skill and artistry. I can understand a husband wanting to brag a bit and claim that he can make
something (even my 6 yr old great grandson used my shop and me so he could "make" a rocking chair), but
I am glad that you stuck to you principles and also stuck it to him. Thank you for sharing.


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## SCOTSMAN (Aug 1, 2008)

You are entitled to sell what you manufacture/make for whatever sum you wish, and what's more you can alter that price according to whatever mood your in.tell me it doesn't happen elsewhere? of course you can.It's your affair.He could have said no but thought your boxes were still worth it. LOL keep it up it's your duty to scam a scammer. He He just kidding go back to my previous point though your selling he want he pays if he still want's it.I personally would never have tried this crap as I truly love my wife.but then I would have made abox myself he had a damned nerve when you consider his little scheme,and should never have embarrased you by asking such a thing. I think if his wife was scammed she would have seen through his crap as she probably knows him from previous lies.Alistair


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

I agree with you wholeheartedly, Pierce. He could have given her some makeshift-failed-birdhouse-of-a-box and she probably would have loved it. However, she's married to him, so she's suspect by affiliation If I was going to pull a scam, I certainly wouldn't include the maker in it! That either takes some stones or no stones at all.


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## TimK43 (May 29, 2011)

*"Then he said his wife has my business card and asked that if she should call me to tell her I do not remember selling him a Jewelry box."*

Sounds like it's not the first time he has tried to pull this kind of crap on his wife. It's pathetic that she has to even think about calling someone else to check up on her husbands lies!!!!!


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## pierce85 (May 21, 2011)

"*However, she's married to him, so she's suspect by affiliation*." Good point, Al. On the other hand, perhaps he's a severely henpecked husband who has been told over and over again that he can't do anything right and he's was just desperate to avoid another tongue lashing… ;-)


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

^I wouldn't know anything about that kind of guy. Hold on honey, right there!


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## TimK43 (May 29, 2011)

REALLY? So now it's the wife's fault for the jerks deplorable actions? REALLY? Come on!!!!!!


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## pierce85 (May 21, 2011)

It was a joke, Tim.

Edit: and probably in bad taste and sexist to boot.


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

Confession time. I told my wife that I painted this for her birthday:









I think that she might be getting suspicious, since this is what my art work usually looks like:









Any suggestions?


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## pierce85 (May 21, 2011)

As long as she doesn't try to contact da Vinci, you're good to go.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Let's face it… in reality, it could be a little of both.

He might be the kind of guy whose mouth is always writing a check his ass can't cover, and she might be the world's worst "I told you so" browbeating ballbuster of all time.

But clearly we have entered the realm of pure speculation.


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## TimK43 (May 29, 2011)

Sorry guys but the fact that ChuckM is actually even attempting to question Gregs "ethics" in this situation has got me very "riled up"!!!!!!!!

I think I'll take another blood pressure pill and chill out while watching the Nascar race. I'll check back on this thread later!!!!


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## SCOTSMAN (Aug 1, 2008)

Da vinci my a$$ I painted that a few weeks ago everyone knows that. Honestly I did. really it was me and I can prove it just ask The guy I made the box for.LOL Alistair


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Tim, I already had to apologize. Take one of those pills for me too


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## ChuckM (May 12, 2008)

Tim:

"If he was simply trying to do something nice for his wife, he would have just bought the box without all the added stipulations."

Are you saying this guy wasn't trying to please his wife? Where is your proof that he wasn't? Are you suggesting he was trying to lie and his objective was not to please his wife? Please show me the proof of your statement. My statement is simple: his intention was to please his wife, regardless of how he did it. I did not make judgment or guesses on why he didn't buy the box at the show right on the spot. That's his business.

"Sorry guys but the fact that ChuckM is actually even attempting to question Gregs "ethics" in this situation has got me very "riled up"!!!!!!!!"

Please show me which sentence I wrote about Grey that I was attempting to question his ethics? I am disagreeing with how he treated the guy and with many of the views who thought what he did was praiseworthy. You don't have to agree with my view just as I don't with yours and many others'. However, I do not come out here and put out points that are not supported by any facts in front of us. Facts please, not speculations or second guessing.

Anyone who has read my posts clearly knows where I stand: I do not share Grey's action nor the views of those who think he did the right thing. That's it, no more and no less. If anyone uses their imagination to read beyond that, fine. But please keep whatever you read out of it to yourself and don't accuse me of things I did not say. Please also do not try to convince me that I am wrong in holding up to my own views; I am mature enough to hold my views.

Look at Grey's response to me and tell me where he thought I was wrong. He was simply restating his position, the one that he told us in his first post. So it's only right when you hear something that is music to you? Sorry, this isn't the LJ world we know. Here, people voice their opinions freely and in return, they have to accept different opinions may be expressed by others. Enough said on the topic, time for me to move on and make some sawdust….


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

I certainly agree to disagree with any criticism of the seller's behavior. He relied upon his principles, just as we all are when we draft responses. I think to suggest that there was "unethical" behavior on the part of the seller is absurd. But you're right, that's my personal view, based upon my personall definition of ethics. Of course, my "ethics" permit the seller's actions and then some. I like the fact that there's disagreement. This wouldn't be half as much fun otherwise Stop on by the congress thread for a real kick in the pants!


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## ChuckM (May 12, 2008)

Bertha - "Stop on by the congress thread for a real kick in the pants!"

That's a political hot potato topic, too hot…. Topics like that always end the same way they start, no matter how long they run: fruitless.

As a Canuck, I already find my own (much less complicated) political system beyond reasoning.


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## BobTheFish (May 31, 2011)

Chuck M, I don't necessarily disagree with you. Two wrongs don't make a right.

My post mentions nothing of overcharging him, but rather that I think punishment for his hubris is definitely recommended. Whether that is denying him the sale, charging him more, and making it explicit why he's being overcharged, (to which, I think it's probably unstated, yet obvious to the customer that he is being charged more), or simply holding one's ground on being truthful are all legitimate methods of stating a penalty for his ego.

The question comes as to whether it is my right to punish him. Typically I'm more the type to let someone go, and then let the karmic justice of the world itself wreak unholy hell upon them. (and I'm openly a vindictive bastard who enjoys such incidences). In this case however, the question is by my neglecting to enact a punishment, am I, in fact, abetting him in fooling his wife, allowing him to feed his own ego, and in general, allowing him to be a jerk to myself and others.

Your question of ethics only really need be about methodology, and though, as I said before, I believe the customer was most likely aware of his penalty fee implicitly (both from the fact that he knew the box, it's manufacturer, etc from the show, and the reaction he gave when the price was named), further actions, like calling up the wife and telling her, or leaving his signature in a discreet location, or otherwise reneging on the details of the sale is immoral and beyond the agreed original punishment.


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## Karson (May 9, 2006)

Great story and stick with it - when he shows back up at your door for some more for Christmas.


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## pierce85 (May 21, 2011)

As Al points out, opposing views are what make these threads fun and interesting. My instinct sides with ChuckM. Most everyone else seems to disagree. Why? Trying to figure that out is the interesting and fun part for me. So thank you, ChuckM, for throwing a wrench into the mix and making this thread more interesting. There's nothing more boring than everyone agreeing with one another.


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## ChuckM (May 12, 2008)

"So thank you, ChuckM, for throwing a wrench into the mix and making this thread more interesting."

Thank you all for being part of this thread, regardless of where you stand on the issue. Now everyone has had his or her say-isn't that what the founder of this LJ sought to make possible?-let's make sawdust!


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## longgone (May 5, 2009)

Wow! I have been away from the computer all day and was completely amazed with all the responses to this blog. If I could turn back the clock and re-do this situation with this person all over again I would handle it the same way.

I have never…and will never ask anyone to lie for me..this is one the ways my parents raised me growing up and I know I will never regret it or have to look over my shoulder. I hope I have successfully passed these values on to my son also.

As for the guy who bought my work…I do not know what other values he lives his life by-good or not good- but he did not leave my shop with my respect on this particular day.


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## TimK43 (May 29, 2011)

ChuckM, FACT: These are your words. 
*"But to make him pay more because of his situation isn't a much more honorable act in my view." *
This is what I meant by questioning Greg's ethics. When you start using words like "honorable" it suggests that Greg was unethical or dishonest or less than honorable. He simply charged him more for the hassle of doing business with this guy!!!! In my opinion, there isn't anything wrong with doing that. Personally, I wouldn't have sold him the box, which would have forced the guy to make one himself or tell his wife he couldn't do it. I think Greg did this guy a HUGE favor at the price of $200.00. The man shouldn't have put himself in that situation to begin with.

*"In my view, two wrongs don't make a right."*
*"I am only openly voicing my concern about the views expressed by many that seem to suggest if the guy planned to cheat (one wrong), we could do another wrong based on his circumstances."*
Two wrongs? How is Greg "wrong" for charging more? It's basic supply and demand. The guy didn't HAVE to buy the box. Greg did NOTHING wrong ei. unethical!!!


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

I really can see both ways of looking at it. I'm not sure sure there is a clear right and wrong in this case.

People like things to be black or white, but 99.9 percent of life is a gray area.


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## ChuckM (May 12, 2008)

bentlyj - L.O.L!


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## ChuckM (May 12, 2008)

Tim: Those are not facts but your interpretations. The word ethic seems to mean different things to us. You're entitled to your interpretations, of course:

A) ethic
n.
a. A set of principles of right conduct.

I never talked about Grey's principles/ethic, just his course of action.

honourable US, honorable [ˈɒnərəbəl ˈɒnrəbəl]
adj

2. worthy of or entitled to honour or esteem

All I said is I do not think his action is worthy of praises.

B) Two wrongs? How is Greg "wrong" …

What dos this have to do with ethic by itself? I was expressing my concern that an eye for an eye seemed to be seen as the best course of response in this particular case. If ethic were a topic I intended to dwell on, I would have used that word.

Bottomline: We all agree to disagree.


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## TimK43 (May 29, 2011)

ChuckM, I think your last line says it best!! We all agree to disagree!!!

Opinions are like assholes, everybody has one and they all stink!!!!!!!!

See ya around.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

You are correct Tim, that's why I NEVER kiss ass to anyone.  
PS. You won't see me around yours either. lol


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## SippinZin (Jul 1, 2011)

Well, it's a great story. Thanks for sharing. And the responses are just as entertaining! I'm sure she knows he's a fake, but it will take more than one lie to push her away, unfortunately. Maybe she'll see you at an upcoming show. Make sure you have another on display just like the one you sold him.


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## itsmic (Nov 11, 2009)

-Every step of any project should be considered* your* masterpiece if you want the finished product to reflect the quality of *your* work.

Was removing your name from your work one of the steps?

*OUCH* please don't burn me at the stake


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## gfadvm (Jan 13, 2011)

Bentlyj - As usual, you cut to the chase and nailed it!! Greg - You handled this exactly like I would have. I do the same thing with my veterinary clients who insist on making my job more difficult. Congrats on having the courage of your convictions. I too was raised to believe that a man's word was his bond.


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## longgone (May 5, 2009)

itsmic….this guy was just going to remove my brass nameplate and throw it away if I left it on there and since I pay $4 each for them. I decided I would not want to waste $4 for the sake of not wanting to remove 2 tiny screws. It has absolutely nothinhg to do with the reflection of the quality I put into each piece of my work.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Greg, consider that $200 payment for that calculation of revenue lost when he ditched the plate. You need to be paid for your intellectual endeavors


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## Tootles (Jul 21, 2011)

I'm quite new to LJ's so it's really refreshing to see a topic like this that generates so much discussion without being the topic being shut down and pulled. It means that this is a very broad-minded community which everybody should be proud of, regardless of their opinion.

I support Greg's right to ask however much he wants for whatever reason he wants. He did previously say clearly that there are times that he discounts the asking price for his work on the same basis as this occasion where he marked the price up - he enjoyed his customer's company and conversation, or not as in this case.

As for whether Greg's actions were punitive, think of it this way. We have no idea whether the guy has done this before, but chances are high that if Greg had complied, he would try it again on someone else. We would all hope that Greg's reaction would be enough to show him the error of his ways, but Greg has provided him with some extra reinforcement of the concept through the spot that often hurts the most - his wallet. Let's hope he has learned the lesson.

My final comment on whether Greg should return the $200 - absolutely no way! If, and I reiterate hypothetically only if, Greg were to decide that he didn't want to keep the extra $200, he should go find a deserving charity. Returning the money would be telling the guy that asking Greg to lie for him is acceptable behaviour - and that's most certainly not the case.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

My wife knows me like a book. I could no more lie to her without her knowing it than I could be the man in the moon. Not that I want to lie to her anyways. In spite of it all I still manage to get into the dog house quite a bit.

In this case, I can't imagine how that man could have gotten any satisfaction out of what he did. What was his point in doing what he did? So, now what happens when she wants another box or some other custom item? - more lies?


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## Knothead62 (Apr 17, 2010)

Love all the answers! I would mark it with my name somewhere you would have to sand off 1/4 inch of wood to remove it. Deep carving and finishing over it would do the trick. Good for you- I saw a sign: There will be a $25 charge just for putting up with you.


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## pierce85 (May 21, 2011)

"*As for whether Greg's actions were punitive, think of it this way. We have no idea whether the guy has done this before, but chances are high that if Greg had complied, he would try it again on someone else. We would all hope that Greg's reaction would be enough to show him the error of his ways, but Greg has provided him with some extra reinforcement of the concept through the spot that often hurts the most - his wallet. Let's hope he has learned the lesson*."

So the role of a craftsman and seller of a product is also to reinforce moral lessons by means of adjusting prices accordingly? In other words, the retailer tacks on a moral tax or rebate to the product based on the retailer's moral judgment of the individual buying the product. Interesting idea but I doubt very much that any of us would wish such a practice as a general norm and we certainly would object if the retailer was imposing the moral tax on us.

The obvious has been pointed out here over and over again - that Greg has a right to charge any price he wants. Of course he does but that's not the issue at hand. No one has argued that Greg didn't have the right to price his boxes as he pleases, when he pleases, how he pleases, and for whatever reasons he pleases. He can do whatever he wants with his boxes, including burning them as firewood if he wishes. Just because someone can do something doesn't entail that they should do it.

The general issue that ChuckM posed was, did Greg do the right thing by charging an extra $200 because the customer was a lying jerk? That issue has absolutely nothing to do with Greg's freedom to do whatever he wants with his products. Having the right to do something doesn't make the act of doing it ethical or unethical. Greg's customer had the freedom and right to lie to his wife and ask for Greg's complicity in that deception, but *exercising that right* doesn't make his actions ethical or unethical. That determination is based on an entirely different set of principles.

The fact that some jerk gets what he deserves doesn't absolve the individual who gave him what he deserved from moral scrutiny. Once you start down the morality road you really don't have the luxury of veering off it when your actions come under the microscope.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Let's remove the issue of ethics and morality and assume Greg charged the fee indiscrimately. Maybe he didn't like the guy's shoes. Isn't that his right to adjust the price of his artwork based upon the buyer? If he sold the work to a museum at a discount, would we be politely bickering? How about that charity that was mentioned? If he raised the price for a third-party seller? How about if he raised the price for a dirtbag? How about for Larry Flynt's personal collection?

I reserve the right to charge whatever I want for whatever reason. The market will tell me if I'm in error. I don't think the ethics committee or the Pope really has a say in the matter.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Helluvawreck said: In this case, I can't imagine how that man could have gotten any satisfaction out of what he did. What was his point in doing what he did?

It's pretty obvious it had nothing to do with pleasing his wife. It was strictly about keeping his own ego intact. If he had wanted to please his wife, he would have just gone out and bought the box, and admitted to her that making one was a lot harder than he thought it would be.

Al: I really do come down on Greg's side here, but I fully understand the point Chuck and Pierce are making. Let me rephrase it in a different scenario:

Suppose you were a doctor treating two male patients for VD. One of them contracted it from his wife, who was cheating on him. The other guy contracted it while* he* was cheating on his wife. Would it be totally ethical for you to charge the cheater more for his treatment than you charge the guy who was an innocent victim?


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Well, Charlie, in today's climate I'd probably get paid zero for both If things go as planned, I'd probably end up paying them somehow. Although I appreciate your example, doctors are bound by oath much like priests and lawyers. Yes, I'm told that lawyers are indeed supposed to be ethical. I think artisans are bound by their own sense of ethics and morality. I realize that it makes my example sans-both a poor hypothetical. But this is the interwebz, I don't have to follow logic I understand your point entirely. I'm still one of those "we respect the right to refuse service to anyone" kind of guys. I'd have probably told the guy to go fly a kite (in those exact words  ). I might have done worse, but I'm not exactly a commerce role model.


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## pierce85 (May 21, 2011)

Al, this thread started with and is predicated on the issue of ethics and morality. Again, simply having the right to do something doesn't entail it's ethical dimension. Mr. jerk customer also reserves his right to lie to his wife and ask anyone he pleases to join him in his deception. Greg made a moral judgment of that customer's actions and charged him $200 extra as a result.

They're both within their rights to do what they did, but Greg injected the moral dimension into the transaction by making his moral judgment part of the transaction. I and everyone here agrees with the first part of his moral judgment that the customer was wrong in his actions. Not everyone agrees with the second part of the moral judgment that Greg made by charging him an extra $200 because of the first part.

As soon as ChuckM posed his challenge, people began to change the parameters by absolving Greg's own actions from moral scrutiny because he had the right to charge what ever he pleased. Sorry but you can't have it both ways. As I said - "Once you start down the morality road you really don't have the luxury of veering off it when your actions come under the microscope."

Edit: perfect example Charlie! It cuts right to the chase.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

OK Pierce, you have a good point and I now understand your position clearly. But I still say the physician example is complicated by a legal/moral/ethical oath. I'm uncertain whether Greg swore a binding boxmaker's oath. So I'll agree in part that he started down a "moral road" and is now bound by the lanes of it. But who's definition of "moral" and "ethical" are we using? Greg appears to have applied his definition and there's no evidence that he deviated from the constraints of said definition.

I'm of the opinion that it's none of my business whether some joker is lying to his wife. It is my business if he asks me to be complicit in the lie. I have to make that decision based upon my own moral compass. Or, I could say I simply didn't like his tone of voice when he asked me, irrespective of my inclination to lie for him. However, my decision to charge him x amount for y reason doesn't necessarily equate to an application of any morality. It may be that in this case, y was a morally charged reason, but it doesn't have to be.

Greg has a wide variety of responses available to him. He could have succumbed to the request; he could have punched the guy in the face. He simply chose one of many responses. Maybe out of morality; maybe out of simple irritation.


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## pierce85 (May 21, 2011)

My first thought as I read Greg's account was that the extra $200 was a way of deterring the sale without an outright refusal to sell - that makes sense to me. If that was the intention, what then do you do when the customer grudgingly accepts the price? That's a real dilemma.

I'm more of a situational ethics guy (surprise, surprise) and find such things invariably complicated because so many other factors are usually involved. I wouldn't have done what Greg did but I'm not judging him either, even though it may look like that's what I'm doing. The jerk deserved what he got. I just think it's an interesting dilemma from a more abstract perspective.

In other words, I'm screwing around too much this afternoon and I need to get back to work…


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

I hate to do it, but you've opened another door, Al, and I'm charging through! 

What oath dictates that you must charge all patients the same for a similar service? And if your oaths/codes of ethics really do dictate equal treatment of patients without respect to your personal feelings, wouldn't it then be wrong to give someone a break on the cost of your services if they were a friend or relative? Don't tell me doctors don't do that.

Even if you truly are bound by oath or legality to treat the two VD patients in my example for the same price, surely you can consider my question as though no such oath existed. In other words, pretend no oath existed. Based only on your personal definition of ethics, would it be ethical to charge the cheater more?

I withdraw the question, Your Honor.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

I'm with you, Pierce. I understand the dilemma well, I just don't happen to acknowledge it! When faced with the 200 punitive bucks, I'd do what Greg did…pocket it. It doesn't even register a blip on my moral compass. It doesn't even register on my ethical radar. I'm a case by case ethicist/moralist. Protesting at veteran funerals: bad. Fleecing a douchebag: good. If it feels right at the time, feels right with some reflection, I jot it down as right and move happily on


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## TimK43 (May 29, 2011)

I don't think this issue can ever be properly debated to a resolution as long as emotions, morality and ethics are involved. Today, I've tried to take at different look at this situation.

This topic has evolved into a morality tail but I think we are all missing the point. I think if we take the emotional aspect out of the equation, it's actually about supply and demand.

Greg had something this guy needed, a box, and when Greg found out just HOW MUCH he needed the item, the price increased by $200.00. Now is it ok for Greg to take advantage of this guys situation? The answer, in a capitalistic environment is YES. It's simple economics in my opinion.

Anyone have any additional thoughts? How would Spock have handled this "logically" if it were an episode of Star Trek? HHhhhmmmm…........


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Tim…. your supply-and-demand description is quite valid. However, even though I firmly believe in capitalism, it's hard to say supply and demand pricing is always okay. After a disaster, for instance, some unscrupulous retailers demand outrageous prices for basic items like water and gasoline just because they can. That may be capitalism, but it sure isn't right.

Still your point is a good one. No one's life was at stake here, so you could argue that Greg was just using the free market to his best advantage.


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## pierce85 (May 21, 2011)

I'm at a restaurant and mention to the waiter that I'm starving and would like the blue-plate special. The guy in the booth next to me is having the exact same thing. The bill for my blue-plate special is $215. The guy in the booth next to me gets a bill for $15. The waiter charges me $200 more than the guy in the booth next to me because I was "starving" and he wasn't.

How many of you would honestly find that situation acceptable, capitalistic environment and all?


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## TimK43 (May 29, 2011)

pierce85, I don't think that it a valid comparison because you're comparing a consumable item (food) and post consumtion pricing. NOW, if they waiter had told you before the meal was served that it was going to cost $215.00 then you would simply have the option tpo eat the meal or go somewhere else. JUST SAYING!!!


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## Todd46 (Jan 18, 2010)

you go Greg!


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## TimK43 (May 29, 2011)

Charlie, I agree with you when it comes to disasters but the oil companies do this all the time. Every time someone "farts" in the Middle East they raise gas prices. It doesn't make things right or wrong in a capitalistic world, it just is….... and we have to deal with it every day!!!!


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## Racer2007 (Jan 13, 2011)

I think calling him a Jerk was letting him off easy. Wonder what he would have doneif you had refused to sell him the box.


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## pierce85 (May 21, 2011)

That's true, Tim. Bad example. Nevertheless, the idea of increasing pricing at the time of purchase because the buyer has expressed a great need for the item is in principle something most people would find unacceptable. Would you be happy with a purchase knowing that the seller increased the price at the time you bought it because he knew you really needed it? Most people call that a scam.


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## TimK43 (May 29, 2011)

When I first read this post yesterday, I had no idea it would warrant such a heated debate!!! That's one of the reasons I love this LJ's website. I'm not always physically able to be in the shop so I can keep my interest in woodworking fueled by reading and participating in discussions like these.

I hope I haven't offended anyone. I truly haven't intended to do that. I was just raised as the oldest of 4 brothers so, I know, can come off as a jerk sometimes.

I've enjoyed all the posts from fellow woodworkers on this subject, even ChuckM, and look forward to reading more on this topic!!!


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## BobTheFish (May 31, 2011)

Nobody's really touched my "price as penalty" argument, huh?You'd all rather hide behind "it's free market capitalism!!!" rather than just overtly say that it is an explicit punishment?

Charlie:

If two people came up to me with VD, and asked me to treat them, and let's just say I could, despite not being a doctor and not being bound by the oath, I'd probably treat the guy who contracted it innocently enough without problem, and mention to him that he might want to figure out who his wife's been sleeping with, and also let her know of the situation, lest anyone else catch it, feeling that he's probably going to have a row with his wife anyhow, and that pretty much, everyone will be notified that needs notifying anyhow, but to do it as a general safety precaution.

To the second guy, I'd probably, once knowing how he contracted it, tell him that he has to first come clean about it with everyone he''s sleeping with, and that means to let his wife know she's been cheated on, and that she's probably in danger. I'd also refuse treatment till that is taken care of, and then charge him accordingly. (i'd probably also notify his wife in this case, but that's out of a moral need to make sure she's treated, rather than wanting to get involved in this morality question, but since that's a different moral objective, let's put that aside for now).

I would, in some way, explicitly make a point about how the person I am to help should be rectifying their moral wrong and on a clean slate to at least the best of my knowledge before I assist them.

I would have no objections to this, however, would I charge different? No. But would there be a penalty in some fashion or other regarding his moral wrong? yes.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

OK Charlie, let me examine your hypothetical. My oath is to treat all patients, irrespective of their ability to pay. I was referring to the payors when I gave my example, most specifically medicare/medicaid which often reimburses less than cost. Many doctors will see a limited number of these patients; some are closing their practice to them. I'm fortunate not to have to make that rather ethically/morally charged decision. You have to consider the establishment of a doctor-patient relationship. Once that is formed, I'm bound by various laws, ethical, moral and simply man made. Pretending that no oath exists is a fun exercise but nothing more. If I had no duty as a physician, you're damn right I'd charge the cheater more. I might charge people more if I didn't like their hairdo, just like I might charge a client more for a wooden box if I didn't like his tone. Aside from fun exercises, you can't remove the legal oath component of the physican, lawyer, judge, or cop example. My professional ethics are quite unlike my personal ones. I'm a pretty cold hearted bastard but I'll fight for my patients until my dying breath. That's part of the oath; more importantly, it's part of the legacy of medicine. Even House fights for his patients in a limping, oxycodone induced stupor


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## Bearpie (Feb 19, 2010)

I have had customers like Greg did and I have been aggravated like Greg has and I did charge that customer more for the aggravation like Greg did and this particular customer was a repeat customer and a big A** so I stuck it to him each time he came around just because I have to put up with the aggravation each time he came around! Stick it to him* again* next time he comes around Greg!


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Tell him there's a douche fee.


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## SteviePete (May 10, 2009)

I'd send a thank you note and a survey with bogus questions about design and quality. Don't forget to send a picture of the project and maybe an idea or two (pictures) for the wife to consider for the jerk after he recovers from being clobbered. I just can't pass up a chance to flick a booger. Like all your boxes. s


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## Tootles (Jul 21, 2011)

Pierce85, I'm not saying for a minute that it is Greg's role to reinforce lessons, moral (your addition to what I said, I didn't say that) or otherwise. I'm just saying that it is possibly an outcome of his actions. Even unintended, I do suggest that it is a positive outcome.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Unintended morality. That was the expression I was searching for and Tootles nailed it. Tootles nailed it; I like that expression too And Steve, I've never heard a booger used in that context. That one's going to be hard not to use.


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## Theophilous (Aug 8, 2011)

A thing is "worth" what some one else will pay for it. The "value" of an object can be considerably more or less than its worth. You were able to collect 200 more than the show price for the box because the customer considered his reputation with his wife regarding his skills at woodworking more valuable than the cost of the box. But to ask you to lie about it… I'm glad you refused.


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## Taigert (Nov 20, 2007)

I love it


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## HalDougherty (Jul 15, 2009)

I carve custom gunstocks and 99.9% of everything I make is sold unfinished. My rough finish is sanded down to 120 grit so, it's very close to finished on the outside and the inside can be opened up with dowels and sandpaper to prepare the stock for glass bedding the action. I've tried to hit a happy medium where I do 90% of the work (in 10% of the time it takes to finish a stock) and the customer does 90% of the detail work that takes so much time. In the time it takes to finish a stock, I can carve 3 or 4 unfinished ones. I've tried to make my woodworking product finished enough that anyone can complete it and still have enough work to do on it to pass it on as a gift to someone and honestly tell them: "I made this for you."


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## zindel (Feb 22, 2011)

hahaha i love it, good call on the extra 200 that is funny! sometimes some people just can't admit defeat! I hope you signed it somewhere for her to find later lol


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## sras (Oct 31, 2009)

Interesting that this thread has activity as I completely missed it the first time around.

While late to the party, here is a thought that I did not see above:

Is it an issue with anyone if Greg had chose to sell at a discount to someone he likes? Seems reasonable to me.

Therefore, it seems quite reasonable to sell at a higher price to someone who rubs him the wrong way.

Great story Greg. The following thread is pretty good too.


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## fingersmasher (Aug 27, 2011)

Greg, As you said you have no control over what that jerk does after he walked out the door. You do have the satisfaction of knowing that his wife admired your work and is also married to a liar as well as a jerk. To each their own. Forget and move on and enjoy the extra money! Congrats.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

No Cr1, I don't think the answer is getting drunk


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## RGtools (Feb 18, 2011)

...which also involves Makers Mark


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## cjwillie (Sep 6, 2011)

I sign ALL of my work. I work hard on all of my projects and I'll be damned if I'm going to let anyone take credit for my work! On the other hand, I also take the blame when something goes wrong and will do anything to fix it if the problem was my fault.


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## Visions (Sep 12, 2011)

Wow, what a wanker! Wants to pass off the box she has already seen and liked as his own!!! She'll have to be just the idiot he is for that to work.

As a side note, my uncle is a contractor, and when I showed him some of the bowls I've made last time he was over, he said to me "Those are nice, but I could do that too. I have been working with wood since you were a little kid, you know". So, I brought him down to the shop in my basement, chucked up a nice piece of white birch I had already turned round and told him to show me how it's done!

About a minute later when the piece was bouncing across my shop I asked him "what's the problem? I thought you could do this no problem?"

He hung his head pretty low and apologized, saying he had no idea how much skill it actually took.

I will admit, I have been guilty of underestimating the difficulty of certain tasks as well. But, I've never been so bold as to tell a craftsman his work would be easy to duplicate, as I'm smart enough to know it rarely is.

Kenny

PS: I LOVE the $200 PITA tax! (PITA=Pain In The A-)


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## CryptKeeper (Apr 28, 2010)

I agree with Dusty, eventually someone his wife knows will want the jerk to make one for them and when he can he will be back to you this time you should mark it $400.


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## tom427cid (Aug 21, 2011)

For those PITA customers that I ocassionally have to deal with-generally my fault for not paying attention that they will be that way-I ALWAYS give them a Brookstone Discount. 
A little histoy,
when Brookstone started the compiled a group of unique and odd tools into one cataloge and added 10%. And the rest they say is history.
So my Brookstone Discount is adding 10%.
Since most of this genre is a one time customer-looking for a bargain-they don't come back. Which is what I wanted in the first place. Make no mistake,I do discount my work,to regular customers,to other shops that like all of us try to make a profit(lets them get in on the action,more importantly also generates good will) When I need a favor,sometimes I dont even have to ask.
BTW kudos for adding to the price,you earned it!!!!
tom


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## GaryW (Aug 28, 2011)

I would send her a perchase thank you card


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## pickpapa (Feb 12, 2011)

good deal! His lies will end up costing him more than $200 when it's all said and done.


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## Cornductor (Feb 5, 2011)

Superb experience. This just made laugh!


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## thiel (May 21, 2009)

Greg: I'm with you on this. Someone puts their lack of integrity on display so clearly, and it can be an alarming and disturbing experience. You handled it well.

Everyone else: I'd give Greg the benefit of the doubt on the fee. If you were in that situation, I'm betting you'd be so shocked at the buyer's behavior that you might not be thinking as clearly as you would, say, when sitting at your computer reading Lumberjocks 

The morality of society depends on the morality of the individuals making up that society-it's the only defense against the unacceptable becoming acceptable. I'm glad Greg's on our team.


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## sgtq (Jan 27, 2011)

Greg, I dont know if its appropriate to ask and feel free not to answer if it isnt but I would love to know how much you ask for one of your boxes. Thanks


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## Truefire (Mar 20, 2007)

Man, i really like and appreciate the manner in which you handled this guy, by being quick on your feet and attaching the additional monies on the price was indeed what he owed you for taking up your time while 'on your property'. This guy would have been out of luck with me for i wouldnt' have sold a jerk like him anything.

Good job man and great patience you must possess. lol

I'll tell you, the jerks are everywhere nowadays, they have bred exponentially at an unprecedented rate thus making it seem as if there is one on every corner. NO worries, Greg i'm here for you bro! --one down…hmm ?? to go. lol

Chris


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## grosa (Aug 27, 2010)

I would have told him to go make his own dam frigin box !!!! That jack a#@**


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## Firefighter (Oct 21, 2010)

I made my wife a heart cake (i'm no baker) for our first valentines day and it looked awful!!! Gave it to her anyway and she could not have been happier. Year 2 turned out a little better.


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## Michael1 (Feb 12, 2011)

That is quite a story, It reminds me of years ago I had nearly the same thing but it was a friend of mine. He seen a jewelry box i was making for my sister for Christmas and asked that I make a second one for him to give to his wife. When I completed it, he paid for it and said, Oh by the way, I want to impress Mary by telling her that I made this for her, so back me up on it okay? I didn't say anything about it, but a couple weeks after Christmas, his wife came by the house to see my wife, and out of the blue she asked me, just curious, how long did it take YOU to make the jewelry box Albert BOUGHT me for Christmas? At first I tried to play dumb, just to back up my friend and then his wife said, I know you made it because I have been married to him too long to know he doesn't have the skills to work with wood like that. So I confessed. I bet this guy can tell his wife all he wants and she will know the difference. mainly by the fact that if he hasn't made anything like it for her before will be a big clue. Women are smarter than allot of men give them credit for.


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## Truefire (Mar 20, 2007)

The overwhelming interest in and replies to this post surely grabs our attention obviously. It goes to reveal and further confirm that fact that many of us have been affected by and have dealt with this 'individual' out there. The world is full of them in all facets of life and in many shapes and sizes…many oft times sit in high places either in the business realm or societal realm…

It makes one wonder if it is perhaps the drastic change that our nation has taken that now the general populace promotes these yahoos or is it that they are of the conniving and elusive types and their manipulate their way into such positions. I stand to believe it is a combination of both.

but there isn't any denying that they are coming out of the wood work…whoa did i say wood work, 'No not there of all places." I run there to get away from these crazies..

I see a whole lot more woodwork for all of us in the days ahead….lol

chris


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## scottdaddy (Nov 3, 2011)

I told him cash only" and when he asked how much I gave him a price $200 higher that when it was for sale at the show.

That wasn't very nice Greg


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## Truefire (Mar 20, 2007)

"That wasn't very nice Greg", nice, this yahoo got what was coming to him.


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## longgone (May 5, 2009)

sccottdaddy…you are wrong. It was really nice.


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## WoodworkerTim (Jul 25, 2008)

For laughs, you should contact him next year and offer to sell him another box for $225 over retail. There might be a repeat customer there.


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## Knothead62 (Apr 17, 2010)

Reviewing the latest posts- what if she asked him to make another one and wants to see how it's done!


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## scottdaddy (Nov 3, 2011)

sccottdaddy…you are wrong. It was really nice.

No I'm not wrong, I'm a Christian and I see things a lot different than you my friend.


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## longgone (May 5, 2009)

scottdaddy, just because you are a christian is not an excuse for guys such as him to lie to his wife and be dishonest. I was straightforward with him and let him know the price was $200 higher…no deception or lies on my part.


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## cathyb (Jul 8, 2009)

Sorry that you had that experience Greg. Most people have little appreciation for the amount of effort and heart that goes into your creations. It's as shocking as an unexpected slap in the face, when someone discredits your beautiful work. From this moment on, you should sign the bottom of every piece that comes out of your shop. I use a burning tool and also add the date.
Don't let that jerk get you down. We all love your work. To Hell with him!!!!!!


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## Fishfreak911 (Jul 14, 2010)

Awesome post Greg.

You received some great advice from many, and especially from Moron and Lee Barker. Your a good man. Stick with your principles. Karma's a ***!


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## rob2 (Nov 27, 2007)

Well done. You make us all proud!!

So what did the box look like? Any Pics?


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

Must have a pic after 1800+ posts.

If you were to say it's a little better than Stumpies'... but not quite as good as Charles', then we'd still need a pic ! ;=)


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## longgone (May 5, 2009)

David Grimes…
1800+ posts? Did I miss some posts somewhere? Here is what the box looked lke


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## blakethornton (Mar 3, 2011)

Don't you brand your work with a logo or signature or something? LOL I like the jerk fee


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## thiel (May 21, 2009)

Now.. there are times when I've been at a craft fair and seen things like cutting boards and said "I can make that myself…"  (I never do, but you know-I COULD). That said, I'm ASTONISHED that someone would look at that box and say "Oh yeah… I could do that." Clearly the product of vision and experience, and it sounds like your customer had neither!


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## longgone (May 5, 2009)

Blake, I have a electric branding iron but I do not use it because I get inconsistent results…especially since I use a large variety of hardwoods. I switched to engraved brass plates and like them much better. The cost about $4 each but I do not mass procuce large quantities of sculpted boxes. I previously fastened them with the tiny included screws but now I just use a dab of epoxy.


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## dshort824 (Jan 12, 2011)

What you do is brand everything you make with your name or business name. That way no one will second guess your work for someone elses. Sorry to hear about the jerk encounter. I used to do craft shows and I would always have people come into my booth and tell me that they can get the same thing cheaper at Target…..OMG!!! Get out of my booth right now AH!!!!!


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## Puzzleman (May 4, 2010)

Drew, I do art and craft shows and do have people tell than get it cheaper on the internet. I do not tell them to go away but rather I agree with them. Yes you can get a similar product cheaper on the web but you cannot get better quality. I ask what website. since I know the major players in what I do, I know where they sell. Once I know the website, I can explain all of the differences and why mine is superior than the cheaper model. If they still want cheaper, they never were my customer in the first place.

And I do put my company name, phone number and website as well as the date on every items that I make. Great way to get repeat customers as they will lose your business card or paperwork but they never will lose the piece they bought. I make sure that they know it is there for them to call me if they ever have any problems with what they bought. They will remember it is there as they are impressed that I guarantee my products.
Then when someone admires and wants one for themselves, they tell them how to get om touch with me.


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## WoodSpanker (Feb 10, 2009)

Hahahahahahha…. he bought it anyway. What a tool.


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