# What is this stickiness in my humidor



## joeBlowFromWindyCity (Dec 13, 2009)

A while back I posted a humidor I built for my stepfather (http://lumberjocks.com/projects/24714 ), but now I've run into some serious usage problems.

I gave him the humidor for Christmas last year and it is unusable now. Inside, there are many spots of, what appear to be sap. I'm not sure where i's coming from, but it's all over the inside of the humidor. It's a shiny, VERY sticky substance.

I'm guessing that there are a few potential problems, but I need a solution ASAP as I took the humidor back this past weekend so I can fix it. I'm guessing it's one of the following, but I don't know which.

1) One of the pieces of Cherry I used is white and potentially sap wood. Could this have been prevented by sealing the inside of the humidor (cherry) before I put the cedar in?
2) The humidification system I'm using is the XIKAR himidifier. I only use the Propylene Glycol solution they suggest for their humidifiers. It seems like this is a very popular humidifier and solution, I can't believe this is happening and I'm the first one to discover it.
3) The tongue oil that sealed the outside has leaked all the way through the cherry and is coming out on the inside. Is this possible?
4) The cedar is sappy?? Never heard of this….

I've attached pictures so hopefully people can identify what I've got going on here. You'll notice it's all over the inside of the humidor. Even the hygrometer face is coated in it (which seems odd if it was sap coming through the wood). We removed 5-6 cigars (wrapped in plastic thankfully) and they were absolutely coated in it as well. It seems sap would not be "airborne", but rather oozing.

Any help would be appreciated guys.


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## dfdye (Jan 31, 2010)

Wha?????!

OK, that is very odd. Honestly, I have no idea either, but here are my initial thoughts. . . .

Can you pull the cedar out and get a look at the back side of the wood? It definitely looks like it is coming from the corners and seeping in, but it does not really look like the tung oil is seeping in, nor would tung oil be that sticky. Your description sounds like it may be some sort of adhesive that is not moisture proof-what did you use to secure the cedar to the box (I read the original post, and I didn't see a mention of it)? If you used typical white wood glue, that COULD be an issue-maybe-possibly. The propylene glycol would be slippery rather than tacky if it were on the wood, so I doubt that is the problem. . .

Hmmmmm. . . . . If I have any brilliant ideas, I'll let you know.


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## joeBlowFromWindyCity (Dec 13, 2009)

I didn't use anything to secure the cedar to the box. Because cedar absorbs so much moisture, I cut it a little short, fit it in and when it expanded from the moisture it was a perfect fit.

The box it held together with wood glue, could that be seeping all the way through like that?

I just got the box back yesterday and I left it open so the moisture will leave the box and I'll be able to take a look inside. Hopefully someone will have something good, or I'll find something once the cedar comes out.

I'm at a total loss and it makes my gift look like junk.


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## childress (Sep 14, 2008)

You seem to be describing sap as the stuff found in construction lumber (2×4's) which is, in fact, not sap but resin (or pitch). Both cherry and cedar to NOT contain this. SO I think we just ruled this one out…

Pure tung oil can be sticky if not thinned, but not sure of it coming all the way through. I wouldn't rule this out though.

The Propylene Glycol might be the culprit as well, check out what is happening under the cedar and get back to us…


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## dfdye (Jan 31, 2010)

Like I said before, I doubt it is the PG since it would seem slimy rather than sticky, but who knows. . .

If there weren't globs of glue in the inside of the joints, I doubt it would seep through like what you are seeing, but again, who knows! I guess a few days to dry out the cedar and then we may be able to get a peek behind the panels to see what is going on.

Once you do get those panels off, I would think about sealing the inside of the box (behind the dry-fit cedar panels) with shellac. You should be able to use the off-the-shelf ready mix Zinsser shellac to do this, though I personally would thin it and use it as a wipe-on finish. This also should keep the moisture from affecting the inside of the box (not counting the cedar) while minimizing any interaction of the box finishing materials with the cedar. If it were me finishing the inside, I would do three quick coats , just waiting a couple of minutes for the shellac to dry between coats, just to seal everything off. I have never used shellac in environments as moist as the interior of a humidor, but I am pretty sure it would do fine. I know a lot of sources recommend shellac for sealing box or drawer interiors since it doesn't smell bad (like many oils than can take a rancid smell after a while) after being in an enclosed space-in fact it has sort of a sweet smell, but it is definitely not over-powering. I guess a wipe-on poly would also be a good bet, and would probably be even better for moisture resistance, but I am not sure how polys would "smell" after being on a box interior, and I would hate to negatively flavor the cigars stored in the humidor.

Just a few more thoughts after pondering the problem for a few minutes.


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## SPHinTampa (Apr 23, 2008)

My guess is that the cedar is reacting with finish is some part of the box. Did you finish anything on the inside? If you finished the inside of the box and then put the cedar lining in, then it could be that.


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## swirt (Apr 6, 2010)

Cedar certainly can have sap in it, especially variety dependent. I've made lots of things with cedar. Some bleed some don't. Not sure of what the determining factors are… might be related to how it died, or how it was stored. I think it is definitely more likely that it is weeping cedar than undried tung oil.

I've never made a humidor with it so can't address that specifically.

Here are some interesting suggestions though 
http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Bleeding_Sap_from_Spanish_Cedar.html


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## joeBlowFromWindyCity (Dec 13, 2009)

I did not finish the inside of the box, I just put the Spanish cedar in up against the cherry, no glue, no finish, nada.

I just called the place I get my wood from and like I thought, they kiln dry everything before they sell it, which should have set any sap.


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## dfdye (Jan 31, 2010)

The more I look, the more I bet it is from something between the box shell and the cedar. You may want to consider sealing the box with shellac before putting the cedar back in, of course depending on what the problem turns out to be. . .

You may also consider wipe-on poly, but I am not sure how the residual smell of the poly will interact with the cigars, but I am pretty sure the shellac will be OK once it dries-it shouldn't color the flavor of the cigars.

Just thinking out loud. . . .


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## swirt (Apr 6, 2010)

What's the ooze smell like? That may be the best indicator of the source.


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## childress (Sep 14, 2008)

The liquid content of a LIVING tree is sap and is primarily water and almost all of it is taken away during drying. Since this has been thrown in a kiln, the wood would be way beyond FSP (fiber saturaion point) and would not leak or ooze sap (water). It is definitely NOT sap.

please tell us what you find underneath.

I still think it's PG….
A Solvent
Propylene glycol in liquid form is a solvent. A solvent dissolves another substance to form a liquid. Water, for example, is a solvent for sugar. It is also used as an excipient. *This is a sticky substance*, such as lanolin or honey, which is used to bind the contents of a medicine pill or tablet. Among other uses, it serves as a preservative and stabilizer. With these qualities and its general safe use, propylene glycol is part of numerous widely different products.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Wonder if the humidity inside the humidor is rehumidifing the cherry? I have seen the dried clear stuff on the surface of kiln dried fir. I doubt if that has any bearing on this, but thought I'd mention it just in case.


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## swirt (Apr 6, 2010)

No disrespect intended to those that may disagree about it being Sap/Resin/Pitch/sticky ooze. Whatever you call it, it is pretty common for spanish cedar in humidors. Here are a lot more references.

http://woodworking.com/forum/showthread.php?4889-Spanish-Cedar-for-Humidor...
http://lounge.cigarfamily.com/archive/index.php/t-131267.html (see the first comment from arlin)
http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Bleeding_Sap_from_Spanish_Cedar.html
http://www.woodworkerssource.com/Cedar_Spanish.html
http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f8/spanish-cedar-bleeding-5937/
http://www.puff.com/forums/vb/cigar-accessory-questions/158586-coolidor-spanish-cedar-question.html
http://www.humidor-guide.com/humidor-spanish-cedar-1-1.php3
http://www.humidor-guide.com/humidor-resin-6-5.php3
http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Crying_Spanish_cedar_veneer.html
http://forums.jlconline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12390
http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Cedar

You can spend all day reading more of them just like these. They all suggest that kiln drying spanish cedar may/might/should/usually/can reduce the chances of weeping. None of them use words to suggest that it is absolute.

On the flip side of the coin there are no sources I can find (other than this thread showing up) that suggest, PG, contact with cherry, or slurping tung oil from the opposite side of an adjacent board.


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## majeagle1 (Oct 29, 2008)

Not sure what the leaking is but wanted to throw my 2c worth in regarding finishing the inside of the humidifier. 
I would *NOT* put any finish on the inside of the box behind the cedar. ANY finish will give off the faintest of odors that we may not smell but will definetely get into the cigars and effect the taste. Sorry to disagree with you David ( dfdye ) but that is just MHO from my experience making humidors, please don't take offense.

I am leaning towards "weeping" of the cedar as well. Don't know about any reaction that the PG towards the potential resin and / or glue…......


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## Raspar (Oct 12, 2009)

I have run into the same issues. The spanish cedar I had did this before it was lined in the box. I let it sit after thinning it down it weeped and I thought it was not usable. It sat for 6 months and i though I would try to clean it up, I then brought it down to final dimensions and installed. It has not weeped since. Just my 2c.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Swirt has it down.
Just because someone tells you it has been in a kiln, doesn't mean the resins were fully set, or someone didn't rush the process. Similarly I have had people tell me that lumber that if the lumber dried indoors that it "Is Kiln Dried!" So there are some real dunderheads out there selling stuff that you expect would know better.

Usually they target 160 in soft woods to set the pitch…someone didn't get it there, perhaps your boards were in the center of a bundle and someone pulled it etc. etc. 
Heed Majegle….don't put finish inside the humidor. Though it can be tempting to use shellac - and it is completely safe…it will impact the flavor of cigars.


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

I am also in the weeping cedar camp. About eight months ago, I made a box and lined it with cedar. Since I was not going to store cigars or anything odor-sensitive in the box, I finished the inside with Danish Oil. I just looked at the cedar lining, and it is still in perfect shape.

Then I went out to my shop and found a piece of unfinished cedar scrap from that box. Sure enough, there are splotches on it. They are not currently sticky - they are dry. But, I can imagine that could be different in a humid environment.

I made the box at a Woodcraft class, so Woodcraft was the source of the cedar in my case.


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## dfdye (Jan 31, 2010)

Gene,

No offense taken at all! I have never dealt with a humidor, and would fully admit that any finish would probably affect the taste of the cigars. That is why I suggested shellac since I thought it would be the least offensive, but if you have had experience that says otherwise, by all means I will defer to your experience! I do know that oils will be problematic on the interior of any box, but if it is already in there, what would you suggest to seal it in?

I'm taking notes here since I would love to build a humidor at some point in the future.


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## HerbC (Jul 28, 2010)

Why not take the cedar out and use the kitchen oven set to a low temp to "set" any pitch that remains in the cedar? 180 degree F for twenty-four hours should do the trick.

Be Careful!

Herb


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## joeBlowFromWindyCity (Dec 13, 2009)

HerbC - I was thinking the same thing. Can I "Kiln dry" in an oven? If I set it to 220 Degrees for a few hours, is that sufficient? How about 400 degrees for 10 minutes 

Having a home oven running over night scares the hell out of me, so it will need to be a shorter duration. Any thoughts or experiences would be appreciated.

Dave/Gene - I've heard that anything inside the humidor would flavor the cigars and nowadays could easily ruin $50-$100 worth of stogies. I didn't finish the inside originally and I'm hoping that someone will jump in with input on kiln drying in a kitchen oven. That seems like the best solution so far.

Someone suggested removing the spots on the current cedar with denatured alcohol but I haven't tried it as I was concerned with odor. I assume the alcohol will dissipate and won't smell up the box. Does anyone know?

I checked last night and the humidity is dropping, but slow enough that it may take weeks. I think tonight the vise grips and screw drivers may come out and this cedar will be sacrificed. I have more and can try oven drying before I put it back in the humidor.


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## rivergirl (Aug 18, 2010)

I use my oven all the time to "kiln" dry wood. I have a convenction oven option- so I set the oven to 200 convenction- which is actually 170 degrees with the fan blowing. If you don't have a convection oven just set the oven to 200 degrees.


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## HerbC (Jul 28, 2010)

Joe,

Here's something interesting I found while Googling (BTW, this LJ topic is # 4 search result when searching for "spanish cedar setting pitch kiln dry"). It's from a Forest Products Lab report

(Note, I added bold italics to what I found to be the most interesting part… Herb)

"Spanish cedar exudes a gumlike substance containing a volatile aromatic oil
that often stains the paper lining of cigar boxes. The evaporation of the oil
leaves a sticky residue, difficult to take care of in the finished articles. *The
aromatic vapor or oil of Spanish cedar is desirable for such uses as cigar
boxes, and any treatment or process used to volatilize the oil and to set the 
gum so as to prevent subsequent exudation must be used with caution in order
to prevent excessive volatilization and loss of these aromatic materials.*

The general remedy or process for the prevention of the exudation of these
volatile oils is associated with their evaporation. If sufficient evaporation
does not take place during the usual seasoning process, the drying process
must be extended or the material be treated under conditions accelerating the
oil-evaporation process. The latter implies a heat treatment, the generally
recommended procedure for which is to kiln dry the stock by the usual methods
to a moisture content of .6 to 8 percent and then heat to treat it at 200° F. for
8 to 17 hours at a relative humidity of 60 percent. The oils and gums will
exude to the rough surfaces, which are then removed in the dressing process.
For Eastern redcedar and Spanish cedar modifications of the duration of the
treatment may have to be resorted to in order to maintain sufficient oil to
produce the desired aromatic odor."

Hope this helps.

Be Careful!

Herb


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## joeBlowFromWindyCity (Dec 13, 2009)

It took a little maneuvering when I got home this evening, but I got out all of the cedar without damaging it. Amazingly, the little drop in humidity while I was at work today made a huge difference in how the pieces came out. Here's what I found…. there is no sap or gumlike substance on the back of the cedar, which leads me to rule out the tongue oil and the cherry sap. The last 2 options I could think of were the humidification system which I believe I've eliminated in an experiment running in the cellar. We're left with weeping cedar.

Unfortunately, I cannot get the cedar from the top of the box as it was glued in. I couldn't pressure fit that since the lid was always upside down. The pieces in the top have a bunch of sap as well, but I can't remove them, not sure what I'm going to do there.

Herb - What you found sounds just like what I have….. a gumlike substance. I'm almost thrown off by what it says though. It seems… if I cure it, I could lose the aromatic capabilities, while, if I don't I could have more sap ;(

RiverGirl - I don't have a convection oven, so how long would you guess it would take to set or cure 6 pieces of spanish cedar, 1/4" thick by 8" long by 3" high?


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## HerbC (Jul 28, 2010)

Joe,

I'd say first clean off any deposits on the surface of the cedar, either by scraping or using a benign solvent such as denatured alcohol. Then 4 - 6 hours @ 200 degree F. Put a container of water (use a cake pan or simular) on the shelf under the wood. You aren't trying to dry the water moisture out as much as trying to evaporate the volitile components that make the "sap" "runny"...

Good luck!

Herb


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## dfdye (Jan 31, 2010)

Herb definitely sounds like the winner! If there is nothing on the back, I can't think of any other option than Herb's explanation.

I'll second the "good luck," and quickly back away from recommending any more finishes for the interiors of humidors, even behind the cedar! 

Hope you get it fixed since that is quite a fine box.

One final comment-even if the interior top is still sticky, it shouldn't really matter that much to the cigars inside. Granted it will be a cosmetic blemish, but the sticky won't get on the cigars unless someone stores the humidor upside down! Also, if the "kiln drying" does make the cedar less aromatic, you will still have a piece of "virgin" cedar in the top to flavor the cigars in the humidor. Again, could be completely wrong in my thinking (wouldn't be the first time, or even the second time in this thread) but that does make sense to me.


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## childress (Sep 14, 2008)

I knew I wasn't losing my mind. Thanks Herb for finding this. Spanish cedar is not a true cedar and in fact is a tropical hardwood, related to mahogany. There is only resin (pitch) in four species of softwood and in some tropical hardwoods, there are gum ducts. There is a difference bewteen this stuff and I feel it's very important to understand the differences when being a woodworker. This is basically what I wanted to say but was havn't trouble located this info. Thanks again


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## PBthecat (Jan 18, 2010)

Maybe your friend was storing weiners in it?


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## millmgr (Nov 17, 2009)

Unless there are exposed gum pockets in the cherry, it is coming from the spanish cedar. Certain varieties of cedro are more prone to the problem Do you know if it is the royal or odorata?


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## joeBlowFromWindyCity (Dec 13, 2009)

Just an update if anybody checks back…. I started thinking and I have more of the spanish cedar left downstairs so I pulled some out and sure enough, it's covered in that gumlike substance.

So here's what I did in the end, and it seemed to work great. I removed the boards from the humidor, cleaned them with denatured alcohol (very liberally to get the sap off). I let them dry in a well ventilated area for a few days. Next, I put them in my oven at 225 degrees for 8 hours. I put them back in the humidor and humidified it again and it's been almost 2 months and nothing has repeated. I hope I'm not speaking too soon but, I think I make have licked this one. I've learned a painful lesson here that cost me a lot of time on a project, but live and learn I guess. Thanks for all the help


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## FirehouseWoodworking (Jun 9, 2009)

Hope that your solution works.

I'd also agree with Swirt. I lined a closet with T&G aromatic cedar in a previous home. We didn't have any humidity issues in the house. But the same sort of thing started to happen on some of the boards. Some of the sap got as far as "beading" up into these small globes of yellowish chrystiline (sp?) hardened sap.

I just scraped them off and lightly sanded the remaining sap. I had to repeat the process a couple times over the ensuing months. But eventually, the problem ceased. I did not want to reline the closet. None of the clothing got anywhere near the walls (by design.)

Like I said, hope your problem is solved. Good luck.

Cheers!


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## RogerBean (Apr 25, 2010)

Very unusual problem. I would tend to agree with those who suspect the cedar as the culprit. My experience would suggest that the cherry, the glue, or the tung oil are very unlikely to be the source of your problem. Why not just replace the cedar with new wood (cedar) from a different source? I would not try to save the problem cedar.
Roger


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## Dennisgrosen (Nov 14, 2009)

thank´s for posting it very interressting isue
and thank´s for the update of what you have done 
learned alot here 

take care
Dennis


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## dfdye (Jan 31, 2010)

Thanks for the follow up! Always good to hear a solution.


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