# Veritas Shooting Plane Out of Square



## cortes (Jun 5, 2018)

I just got a Veritas Shooting plane and a Starrett Master Precision square 20-4 1/2. When I used the square to check the plane, I found it to be out of square. With the precision and quality control of Veritas, I called Lee Valley to see if this was normal. They couldn't say, but offered to send me a replacement. With the square base resting on the side that slides on the shoot board there is a gap of around 300 microns between the outside edge of the plane side with the blade and the blade of the square. Am I being overly picky in my tolerance for squareness?










I also have a Veritas Low Angle Jack Plane. It's measured perfectly square.


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

I think your being too picky. 
Also consider the blade squareness to the work combined with how flat your piece sits on the shooting board decides if your on track.
For a square edge to a flat face.


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## cortes (Jun 5, 2018)

> I think your being too picky.
> Also consider the blade squareness to the work combined with how flat your piece sits on the shooting board decides if your on track.
> For a square edge to a flat face.
> 
> - Aj2


You're right about the other factors. I also have the Veritas Shoot Board Track so I'm concerned about the board. The alignment of the blade is the biggest variable. It's pretty hard to check given it's skewed. If the replacement plane is also out of square, I may just live with it.


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## johnstoneb (Jun 14, 2012)

I don't think you are being picky. The side should be square to the base especially in a shooting plane.

I would contact veritas directly.


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## Bill_Steele (Aug 29, 2013)

I don't think you're being too picky. I think the shooting plane should be square (side to bottom). If the side is not square to the bottom-wouldn't that same error be translated to the stock being cut? If that's true-then the resulting joinery would be off as well.

Why should you have to rig something or make adjustments to the shooting board or plane to accommodate the error? What are you gonna do-add layers of painter's tape to the side to bring it square? Makes no sense to me.

Maybe it's designed to be this way? I sorta doubt it-but I don't know. I would wait and see if the replacement is different and if not-I would return it for a refund.


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## Kazooman (Jan 20, 2013)

That's a very fine square, but did you check IT for squareness?


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> That s a very fine square, but did you check IT for squareness?
> 
> - Kazooman


Big +1 on that. Also, I'd measure the result rather than the tool. If you shoot a board, how square is the cut?


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## Ted78 (Dec 3, 2012)

I'm ignorant on this one, but I can see both sides. On one hand if I ever paid that much for a plane I think asking for it to be dead on square is reasonable. On the other hand I can't see it being that much off would ever make any appreciable difference in the squareness of what I planed with it. Also definitely check the square by doing the flip/flop line thing if you haven't already. All my squares are of much lower quality, but a lot of them aren't really all that square.


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## cortes (Jun 5, 2018)

> That s a very fine square, but did you check IT for squareness?
> 
> - Kazooman


Two other of my Veritas planes tested square with the Starrett square. It also tested square with my Woodpecker squares.


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

I was thinking I really don't know how much 300 microns is. Doesn't sound like much but your pic looks like 1/32.
My Shooting plane is a LN miter plane and it's not square. 
Somewhere between 1/64 &1/32.According to my starrett No 61 
Sorry for calling you picky. ;(


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## nutsandbolts (Oct 16, 2012)

300 micron is about 12 thousandths. Unacceptable for a shooting plane.


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## Kazooman (Jan 20, 2013)

> That s a very fine square, but did you check IT for squareness?
> 
> - Kazooman
> 
> ...


Sounds good, but there is a simple, foolproof way to test a square. Take a piece of stock like a 1×6 with one trued edge (fresh from your jointer and checked with a straight edge). Place the square against the trued reference edge and draw ( or perhaps better scribe) a line along the blade. Flip the square over so the handle is facing the opposite way and check the line (scribe mark). Dead on or slightly off? Only dead on will do. Testing one square against another only works if you are 100% certain that the reference is accurate. The simple scribe test does not rely on any assumptions about the accuracy of another tool. My guess is that you are indeed OK, but you can prove that easily.


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## RonAylor1760 (Aug 17, 2016)

Having developed the skill of sawing squarely to a line, I haven't used a shooting board for quite some time. Besides, 0.011811" ... really?


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## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

In a shooting plane, I wouldn't accept it. Especially not a Veritas plane at that price point. 300 microns may not sound like a lot but it is once you translate it to each piece in a glue up. Yes, I know there are ways to work around it. But if you drop that kind of cabbage on a plane, you shouldn't have to.


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

Every time he sharpens that skewed blade it going to be a different angle. It's the blade that determines the cut on the wood not the body of the plane.
Then all the other factors the wood, his ramp,and the human that pushes the whole contraption is a wonder it works at all.
It's good that Cortes is meticulous about his tools hopefully it will transfer to some nice work to inspire others to challenge themselves.


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## splintergroup (Jan 20, 2015)

Veritas prides themselves on quality. They take steps to flatten and square their planes and of course you pay for that when you buy.

Though I believe it won't adversely affect your work, Lee Valley offering a replacement is par for this company and I'd take them up on their offer.


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## Bill_Steele (Aug 29, 2013)

I don't think the blade (plane iron) is skewed-at least it does not appear skewed to me. I took this from the LV website


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

Yep your right Bill. The iron is straight 
I'm a Lie Neison user myself. Here's a look at the Ln shoot plane it's blade is straight but sits at a angle what a trip.








500 bucks for this one.

I have the Ln miter plane it's not as big and heavy


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## OSU55 (Dec 14, 2012)

The LV iron edge is not skewed but the iron is bedded at a 20* skew, like the LN.

No you are not being picky and Im positive LV doesnt think so either, in fact they are probably embarressed and very concerned how that particular plane got out of the plant. Get the replacement and thanks for the info.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

You can pay a lot less for an out of square plane so I don't think it's being picky.


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## ColonelTravis (Mar 19, 2013)

Not picky at all. You're spending good money for tools that should be impeccably made. I've had a few issues with LV and their CS has always been top notch. Good to know they're sending a replacement. I would have asked the same thing.


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## JCamp (Nov 22, 2016)

Not picky for the price anyway. Send it back


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## cortes (Jun 5, 2018)

> I don t think the blade (plane iron) is skewed-at least it does not appear skewed to me. I took this from the LV website
> 
> - Bill_Steele


Your right Bill. I should say the blade holder slot are skewed or something like that.

A replacement plane has been sent out. Nothing but great service from Lee Valley


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## cortes (Jun 5, 2018)

I just got the replacement shooting plane today, a very fast turn around. The plane is still out of square, but only by 100 microns or 0.1mm. I've misplaced my feeler gauge so I used pieces of paper and mic'd the thickness.










When I compared the photos, they look similar. The new plane is much more square. I also have the Veritas shooting track. I can always shim it to compensate should it be necessary.


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## JohnChung (Sep 20, 2012)

@Cortes: Did you test the entire length of the plane or one section? I remember mine being dead square.
I test the entire length of the plane.


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

Looks plenty good to me for a wood working tool. 
This reminds me of the saying is it the Archer or the arrow.


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

Wow this is bad PR for LV…....

I'm with everyone else that expensive a tool should be dead square.

I would double/triple check my square. I had a Starrett that was out of square.


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## Holt (Mar 15, 2011)

> I would double/triple check my square. I had a Starrett that was out of square.
> - rwe2156


I was thinking that too. Kind of like that old joke where the patient points to several places on his body and says it hurts here, here, here, and here. What do you think is wrong. I think you broke your finger.


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

Geez guys he says it's a Starrett Master square.
Everyon3 should have at least one square they use as their reference square to check all their daily users. Too me it looks to be very well cared for.


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## Bill_Steele (Aug 29, 2013)

I would contact Veritas directly to see what they say. I would ask if the shooting plane ideally should be square sole to side (90 degrees). I would ask what sort of tolerance (e.g. in thousandths of an inch) from the ideal angle is acceptable by their quality control.

I think Veritas makes really nice tools-I have a few. Everything I've gotten from them has been perfect (e.g. no need to flatten the sole or tune up the plane-it's ready to go). I would consider them in the top-tier of hand plane manufacturers. I find it interesting that both planes are the same and I'm starting to wonder if they are designed that way for some reason-or as others have stated your reference square is off.


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## diverlloyd (Apr 25, 2013)

> I would double/triple check my square. I had a Starrett that was out of square.
> - rwe2156
> 
> I was thinking that too. Kind of like that old joke where the patient points to several places on his body and says it hurts here, here, here, and here. What do you think is wrong. I think you broke your finger.
> ...


So if it's not square then the other two planes are out of square. So what's worse the shooting plane out of square or his other two planes and his other squares also?


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## cortes (Jun 5, 2018)

I just spoke with Lee Valley. They are going to send me another plane, expedited. Their tolerance for the shooting plane is 0.003". According to my calculator, that's 76.2 microns. So it's pretty close.


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## OSU55 (Dec 14, 2012)

Does your LA jack check perfectly square when checked from each side?


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## cortes (Jun 5, 2018)

> Does your LA jack check perfectly square when checked from each side?
> 
> - OSU55


Yes it does as well as a LA block plane I have from them.


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## ColonelTravis (Mar 19, 2013)

When did you get the first plane? Wonder if they just had a bad batch and pulled your two from that pile?


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## cortes (Jun 5, 2018)

> When did you get the first plane? Wonder if they just had a bad batch and pulled your two from that pile?
> 
> - ColonelTravis


It could have been. They ship out of Reno, Nevada for California customers. They are going to check the third before they send it so it's most likely coming from Maine.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

If you're sure your square is square (I assume it's ready the same out of square from both sides) then I'd ask for another replacement. I don't mind squaring up old Stanleys, but a


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## simmo (Nov 23, 2008)

I would be very happy to buy the out of square shooting plane for a large discount, I bet my wood moves 300 microns from one day to the next, and Iwould shot a bit of wood and check it, if it wasn't square I would adjust the blade a bit, japanese planing competitions cut micron thick shavings over wide boards , planes are wooden and set with hammers!
Chris


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## derekcohen (Jul 15, 2007)

*Have you used the plane?*

I think I looked at mine about 12 months after I got it out of curiosity, and it looks a bit like yours. Yet it works perfectly, and I have no issues or complaints.

Try it before you go any further.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## cortes (Jun 5, 2018)

> *Have you used the plane?*
> 
> I think I looked at mine about 12 months after I got it out of curiosity, and it looks a bit like yours. Yet it works perfectly, and I have no issues or complaints.
> 
> ...


I had already sent it back. I got the replacement today. The folks at Lee Valley called to say they opened it and tested it before sending it. It's out between 35 and 40 microns, much better than the 100 microns of the last one and well within tolerances. This one is a keeper.Once again, excellent service from Lee Valley. Derek, I couldn't try out the previous ones because I was in the process of making a shooting board for it.


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## ColonelTravis (Mar 19, 2013)

Glad you got a good ending here. LV is a wonderful company, they helped me out the other day with a rabbet plane issue.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

With the machinery they have to manufacture planes, it is not a big deal to ensure squareness. I would suspect someone at the factory accidentally changed a machine setting resulting in the out-of-square condition and it also got past inspection and QC. I would definitely send it back. Turning out less than perfect tools at that price cannot be tolerated. If it were made in China, I could understand that. It certainly tarnishes the Veritas reputation.


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## JADobson (Aug 14, 2012)

> It certainly tarnishes the Veritas reputation.
> 
> - MrRon


I don't think so…everyone make mistakes and no one anywhere has better customer service than LV. They make it right every time, even when they really don't have to. Case in point: I bought a turning tool a few years ago that after two years of use snapped in half when I got a catch. I brought it into the store to ask what I was doing wrong to make it do that. Fully intended to buy a new tool. Guy there took one look at it, asked me what I was doing when it snapped, then went a got me a brand new one off the shelf and told me to have a good day.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> With the machinery they have to manufacture planes, it is not a big deal to ensure squareness. I would suspect someone at the factory accidentally changed a machine setting resulting in the out-of-square condition and it also got past inspection and QC. I would definitely send it back. Turning out less than perfect tools at that price cannot be tolerated. If it were made in China, I could understand that. *It certainly tarnishes the Veritas reputation.*
> 
> - MrRon


We're talking Microns here! And LV is doing everything one could expect them to.

JaDobson mentioned a good example in the store, I have a small example of what kind of company they are. 2 years after buying the small router plane, they started adding a lock stop on it, they sent me one because I had purchased one. Small brass ring wth screw, probably cost 3 times as much to ship as the part itself.


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## Holt (Mar 15, 2011)

> It certainly tarnishes the Veritas reputation.
> 
> - MrRon
> 
> I don t think so…


I guess it depends on what you mean by tarnishes. Does this thread mean that I will check out any Veritias plane with my most trusted square as soon as it arrives instead of setting the boxed plane on my workbench until I get time to play with it? Yes. Does all of this mean I'll rule out Veritas the next time I'm trying to decide whose product to choose? No.

At the moment the only full sized Veritas tool I own (my wife buys me any new miniatures every year for Christmas) is a medium shoulder plane purchased as a factory second because it "contained a blemish that will not effect usability". That was over five years ago and I still have not found the blemish! I'm about ready for a standalone plough plane, and I can guarantee that I'll being buying a Veritas (shocking since I am a die hard Record fan)


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## derekcohen (Jul 15, 2007)

> *Have you used the plane?*
> 
> I think I looked at mine about 12 months after I got it out of curiosity, and it looks a bit like yours. Yet it works perfectly, and I have no issues or complaints.
> 
> ...


In my opinion, there are too many who decide whether a plane (or another tool) will work by applying a square to it before they use it. Then they decide it couldn't work, and ask for a replacement, discus it here, and create the impression that measurements are the be-all to end-all.

How could you tell if the plane did not work if you did not try it out first?!

I used my shooting plane for a year before measuring it out of curiosity. I could see light. So what - it produced perfectly square edges. I have a couple of other similar planes. I have not measured them. Never felt the need.

The only take away I have from this thread is that Lee Valley are fantastic. They please their customers by responding to complaints that are essentially baseless. They do it because they believe the customer is always right. Even when they are wrong.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## rjpat (Dec 25, 2012)

I have had my shooter for several years and when this thread first started, I got my Starret square out and checked it, perfectly square. If it hadn't been, like Derek, I wouldn't have worried, it works perfectly. I am very happy with my Veritas tools, had some minor things come up but Lee Valley is great about making things right.


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## BlasterStumps (Mar 13, 2017)

Isn't the important 90º the cutting edge of the blade to the side of the plane that runs on the shooting board? Assuming the shooting board is made correctly, then the cut on the workpiece would also be a 90.


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## cortes (Jun 5, 2018)

> In my opinion, there are too many who decide whether a plane (or another tool) will work by applying a square to it before they use it. Then they decide it couldn t work, and ask for a replacement, discus it here, and create the impression that measurements are the be-all to end-all.
> 
> How could you tell if the plane did not work if you did not try it out first?!
> 
> ...


Had I had a shooting board, I would have tried it first. Since I didn't and had just received my engineers square, I went around testing my planes and squares. I was surprised that the shooting plane was so far out given my three other Veritas plane, where square side are important, were perfectly square. When I called Lee Valley, I asked them if this was the way it was supposed to be. He said it wasn't and sent me a new one. The tolerance for the plane is 76 microns or .003". Both of the first two planes were out of tolerance, the first being the worst. I asked here at the same time I asked at Lee Valley.

As it turned out, the shooting track was also out of parallel, probably due to the surface on which I mounted it. A couple of shims under the outside screws fixed it. I'm not a good enough woodworker to discount my skills as being the problem so it's easier to eliminate tool defects first. I agree with you that take away from this thread is the excellent provided by Lee Valley.

Out of curiosity, do they say microns for thousands of a millimeter or micrometers in Australia? In the US, a micrometer is a measuring tool, typically reading in fractions of an inch.


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## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

When I put down several hundred dollars for a plane, I expect it to be in spec. To send out a replacement that is not in spec is just careless and not what I expect from Lee Valley. It is certainly not in anyway fantastic. I have a couple of their planes and they are great but in this case LV fell short of their reputation.

When I buy an LN or LV product, I expect a high quality product. If I want something lower quality, I can find other suppliers.

I use my LN 4-1/2 as a shooting plane and the bottom and side are 90 degrees measured with a precision square.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Next time…maybe check out the Stanley No. 51/52?


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## straylight (Nov 4, 2017)

Hi All,
I just got the same model a few days ago, it came with a slip of paper explaining why it's out of square (see attached photo). I simply adjusted the blade laterally to compensate and i have perfectly square cuts. Love this plane, wish I would have bought it years ago.


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

After all this hoorah.


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## Bill_Steele (Aug 29, 2013)

Thanks for posting this. So it IS designed to be out of square-interesting.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Thanks for posting this. So it IS designed to be out of square-interesting.
> 
> - Bill_Steele


The way I read it, it's designed to be within 0.003" of square, but only in the direction that leans away from the board (less than 90º). So it could be square.


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

Aww so I was right for once. This is the best day ever


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## ColonelTravis (Mar 19, 2013)

> Hi All,
> I just got the same model a few days ago, it came with a slip of paper explaining why it s out of square (see attached photo). I simply adjusted the blade laterally to compensate and i have perfectly square cuts. Love this plane, wish I would have bought it years ago.
> 
> - Ryan Nicholson


The OP knew this from talking with LV. His first two planes were outside that tolerance of 0.003".


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

To me it doesn't matter anyway. The only parts that matter are the sole and bottom part of the side that registers against the board itself. If it leaned in any whatsoever it would make for a crappy shooting board.

I wouldn't worry one bit if it was 1/16 out at the top because it doesn't factor in whatsoever as long as it leans away.

It has a lateral and will work just fine. Put her to work.


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