# Mentoring



## docspencer (Jan 27, 2013)

A local guy contacted me and wants me to help him build a coffee table. Or as he put it, mentor him. We would use my shop and tools. He would supply the materials. He is willing to pay me. I've never done this sort of thing and the two obvious questions are: do I charge by the hour or a flat price? And, how much. Anyone have any experience with this? If it helps, we live in Howard County Maryland. Thanks in advance.


----------



## Alongiron (Jan 10, 2011)

Doc
I had a guy here in Indianapolis do the same thing. Use my shop; but the materials, etc. He gave me $150 bucks to help him out but now he calls all the time wanting to use my shop!! He has got the bug but no tools yet!! Lol. I did check with my homeowners insurance and they said it is fine and that if there was an accident, it would be covered less the deductible. He is a friend but I hope he buys some tools pretty soon !!


----------



## John Smith_inFL (Dec 15, 2017)

Doc - has anyone ever helped you in the past in anything ?
I have done small jobs like that for free. and if the guy wanted
to pay me, I put that money in a special coffee can that I supported
my local volunteer fire department with. *Pay it Forward*

now, a set of kitchen cabinets would be a different story all together. (I would just say "no").

.


----------



## BurlyBob (Mar 13, 2012)

My question is just how good of a friend is this guy? A friend asks for occasional help and offers the same in return. A user, simply uses to get what he needs. From my perspective I'd rather work with a friend. Doing anything for money makes it more like a job and that requires a greater degree of meeting expectations. I wood work for my enjoyment. I'll help others out of the goodness of my heart and develop friendships. Honestly I don't get many requests for help. I get requests to do it for them. SCREW that! I've got way to many things on my own personal to do list! You want it done do it yourself or pay someone else to do it for you. I just don't need the money and don't offer myself out for hire. I've done it 4 times and the stress I placed on myself made the money I receive hardly worth the effort! I avoid such things as serious hard and fast rule. I honestly doubt I will ever build anything else on an order basis. A gift is a whole nuther thing!


----------



## docspencer (Jan 27, 2013)

I should clarify. I had never met him before he called me the other day. He got my number from a local sawmill. He's a very nice guy but not a friend.


----------



## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> I put that money in a special coffee can that I supported
> my local volunteer fire department with.
> 
> - John Smith


What? Nothing for the widows and orphans?


----------



## DMiller (Feb 7, 2017)

Good afternoon to all of you! If it is ok, I would like to comment from the opposite point of view. From the viewpoint of the person asking for help.

There is a project that I have began working on; a project in which I have asked several questions about here on LJ's. A while back I received a pm from an older gentleman here inviting me visit him and his shop; he very graciously helped me use tools I don't have- one's which I will not be able to afford for many years. His help has been a huge blessing to me- primarily in that I don't have a lot to do at once but just need a specific tool quite often.

I can totally understand the point of not wanting to share my shop (if I had one), but I will just mention it can greatly bless the person in need of help. Just my two cents. Hope it helps!


----------



## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

You might want to check your liability insurance in case someone gets hurt!


----------



## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

As I see it there are different things being discussed here. The OP is asking about someone who approached him to walk him through a project. Someone he's not even acquainted with. That smacks of a classroom situation, and one-on-one at that. Look around and you'll see some pretty hefty fees for that sort of thing. To address the OP's main question, I'd charge a flat fee, just like the woodworking schools do. Depending on your expertise, I'd say $300 to $500 is a good range. Decide on a format, document the final goal in SketchUp, or something like it, and plan out the number of days, hours in each day, goals for each day, etc. Also, decide if you're going to include material costs in the fee, or have a separate fee. It's probably best not to have the student bring the wood, since you don't know what they'll show up with.

Now, if we were talking about a friend, an acquaintance, or a fellow LJ who wanted to come over and hang out a while and see how I do things, that's different. I'd never think of charging for that. In fact, shipwright had invited me down to Green Valley where he spends winters to show me some tips on hide glue, veneering and such. He was called back to Canada a couple of weeks early, so we'll have to plan it for next fall, but that's the sort of gesture folks on here do for one another. I do have a small gift I'd saved for Paul.

It's kind of like taking a bottle of wine to someone's house when they invite you for dinner. It's not required, they'd never ask you for it, but you do it to be polite.

EDIT: I just saw oldnovice's post and he makes a really good point. If someone is just hanging out with you and gets hurt at your house, homeowner's will cover it. As soon as you charge a fee, it likely changes everything from an insurance standpoint.


----------



## JCamp (Nov 22, 2016)

Not sure this question has been brought up but the biggest thing is Do you want to do it?
If you do you might want to start by figuring out what he has in mind. He might think $20 will cover your time for the whole project….
Helping someone get started is great but at the same time you have to make sure its not screwing u over as far as insurance and shop time for yourself. 
I think personally if my insurance would cover any accident my starting cost for a stranger would be the deducible and Id still have them sign a waiver to further cover my butt. You might also decide if you are willing to do this again in case hes one of those guys that keeps coming back instead of investing in his own stuff


----------



## DustyM (May 16, 2016)

I'll chime in to say that I'm in the same camp as everyone else suggesting to check with your insurance first.

Also, another consideration is whether you're looking to make new friends. That may sound a little juvenile, but should this guy take a liking to hanging out with you, you may end up with a frequent tag-along. Not necessarily a bad thing, but personalities sometimes clash, some people are more demanding/needy than others…I think you get my drift.

Also, as JCamp mentioned, is this something you want to do? Furthermore, do you have any previous teaching/mentoring experience, or is it something you enjoy doing? I do a little math tutoring on the side, and really enjoy being able to correct a student's misgiving surrounding the subject (things are usually easier than they've been led to believe). But if a student of mine messes up, it's much less likely to result in an amputation


----------



## Planeman40 (Nov 3, 2010)

Over the years I have had any number of friends ask me to "take this and fix it for me". In the beginning I did it, but soon I began saying "I will be happy to, but you must come keep me company while I do it." About 3/4 of them decline. My attitude is if it isn't worth their time, it isn't worth my time.


----------



## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

*Planeman40*, you made a good point!

If it's not worth their time why should it be worth your time!


----------



## CaptainKlutz (Apr 23, 2014)

+1000% agree with Rich: 
Must structure the arrangement like a formal class, or as formal project plan with milestones; 
regardless of whether you charge for helping or not.

Most important part about this: 
The effort and process of making a formal plan will teach mentor if the trainee is actually capable of following though on the project.

FWIW
I attempted to "mentor" a person who lived a few a streets away from my house before I knew the pit falls. 
Did not know the trainee. They saw me wood working in garage and out of blue one day stopped by to ask if I would teach them to build a coffee table. Reluctantly agreed, and it was total chaos.
Chaos that resulted in unfinished project sitting idle for months in my garage. It is horror story with details best told over a couple drinks in a bar…...
End result being that I finally could not take it anymore. 
Being a kind person, I spent my time to complete building of the mission style QSWO coffee table. Then took the table, all extra lumber they bought for future end tables, and dropped it off at trainee's house. It was bare wood, ready for finishing. Student was not home, told his wife; "Sorry, but I was not able to help anymore." Her response floored me: "Thank you it's really nice, can you paint it black to match our other one? Didn't he tell you we bought one from IKEA last month?" 
ugh 
why me?
Needless to say, that attempt at mentoring was not successful: mostly as I did not develop a plan up front with a trainable student.

After learning my lesson: 
Two follow on requests for "help and training" mentor-ship resulted in discovery that neither student really understood that wood working is a passion. It is not a fast/easy way to build furniture where you start and finish in a single Saturday and save thousands of dollars .vs. buying at Walmart.

Best Luck training everyone you can!


----------



## TimInIndiana (Jan 6, 2018)

Heck, I'd just like to shadow an experienced woodworker with his/her projects. I'd stay out of the way as best I could, help if I can, and try to absorb as much information as possible. If I were requesting help for one of my own projects, I would definitely want to pay. If the mentor wouldn't accept cash, I'd pay in new saw blades.

It does seem like insurance could be an issue. I wonder if it helps at all to draft some sort of basic waiver? Not sure how useful those are. But I agree with other replies that you should check with your homeowners insurance before offering any paid mentoring services.


----------



## bndawgs (Oct 21, 2016)

HO insurance will cover others getting hurt on your property, but there will be limits on coverage. An umbrella policy is definitely something worthwhile to look into.

If this is something you would be interested in, turn it back around on the person asking for help. Ask him what he was thinking along the lines of payment or doing the work, etc.


----------



## putty (Jan 1, 2014)

I had the same issue, I allowed someone to use my bandsaw and router table for some outdoor chairs he was making. The first thing he did when he came in was put a water bottle on my table saw. He broke a 60.00 dollar bandsaw blade that he didn't offer to pay for. He didn't even help me clean up his mess.

Now the A-hole is a "wood worker" and telling his buddies that if they need anything he has this friend with tools!!!!

and while I'm on this rant.. here's another A neighbor 2 doors down that I help out when they need something, called me on the coldest nastiest day of the winter, she told me her husband was out of town and she would be gone all day. her faucet in the back of the house was dripping. She asked me if I could try to shut it off. She called back later and, when i told her it still leaked she asked if I would fix it for her!!! WTF

I used to help anyone and everyone, now I am very selective


----------



## gargey (Apr 11, 2016)

I love these anecdotes. Sounds like the takeaway is that you need to find out if the person wants to learn woodworking, or wants a coffee table.


----------



## Notbrick (Feb 6, 2018)

> I love these anecdotes. Sounds like the takeaway is that you need to find out if the person wants to learn woodworking, or wants a coffee table.
> 
> - gargey


Bingo


----------



## Loren (May 30, 2008)

> wood working is a passion. It is not a fast/easy way to build furniture where you start and finish in a single Saturday and save thousands of dollars .vs. buying at Walmart.


yeah. Like that.

For a one-project build like the guy wants, I'd
encourage him to find a video build of something
similar that we could both familiarize ourselves
with. This way he'd at least have a clue about the
different stages involved, particularly with machining.


----------



## Ocelot (Mar 6, 2011)

Point to the broom and ask him to sweep up while you change the saw blade or something. In 10 seconds you'll know if he's not the kind of guy you want to help. In another minute, the good kind will put the broom away and ask "anything else I can do to help?"


----------



## docspencer (Jan 27, 2013)

I find this thread fascinating. First, I'm learning some good things about what to think about in approaching this. Second, as a sociologist by training, I find the varying views and philosophies on this most interesting. I could have used this thread for a sociological study. Too bad I'm retired…...


----------



## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

My lumber mill has some larger tools that I don't have. If I need them, he charges me $60+ an hour for time on them.

A lot of folks don't understand what, "Just helping with a table!" or "showing them what to do," really means. I have had a number of folks ask to show them how to sharpen a blade (for instance), I ask them to bring it to me and I will show them. I start to show them how to do it and they turn away, look at their phone or something.

One guy, that I sharpened a small plane, showed him how to use it and after he planes the top of a door, sets it blade down on a cinder-block for a week or two and brings it back to sharpen - now its dull and rusty. He was genuinely pissed when I told him that I didn't have time. Come to think of it, haven't talked to him much since - been a couple of years.

There is a big difference between being nice and being taken advantage of (or just being used). If a family member wants a small table or something, they have to get my wife's approval first - then I just make it. Usually she tells them that I am too busy making stuff for her. This works well. If it is a commission, she has to approve it first - and that is rare.


----------



## Jon_H (Jun 21, 2016)

I'd have them "apprentice" on a piece that you're making for yourself as payment. Give them safe tasks easily done by newbies. Make them observe while you do the dangerous, tricky bits. They'll get a better idea of what's involved, and you'll get a better feel for their interest.

If they're just trying to rope you into making a table for them, they'll either decline your apprenticeship offer, or they'll be highly disinterested during the process and the whole thing will fall apart of its own accord. No wasted time on your part.

If they're genuinely interested in becoming a woodworker, they should be engaged and useful during their apprenticeship and you can proceed to their project with some comfort that you're not wasting your time, and the whole experience will be valuable for both of you.


----------



## Knockonit (Nov 5, 2017)

i"ve never had a problem training or assisting on a project, i have a good friend, who wanted to build cabinets, we sat down, made material list, router bit list, blade list, ect, ect. and he went out and purchased it all, we work saturdays am making cabinets, when we both can get together, this weekend, we will finish the doors, and have them ready for glass,

i guess i should say, he was a client i remodeled his home and added a couple rooms, we hit it off and well, its working well for me. I enjoy the company most of the time, and its always a hoot to watch him move on to the next level, and he is and has helped me mill lumber for bowl blank,s cut down a few trees for bowls ect.

guess its a two way street, smart fella will arrange to not be used, always be on the plus side of the equation.
just saying
Rj in az


----------



## docspencer (Jan 27, 2013)

Long awaited update. After some back and forth, he and I decided that he would pay me $400 plus accessories (such as router bits) we might need for the build. We started in April and finished a week ago, working once or twice a month. He was a good student - happy when I'd let him make cuts and always eager to clean up! I learned a few things. The table turned out great. Not sure I'd do it again but for a one-time experience I had fun.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

Hey, thanks for the update, and good to hear it went well!


----------



## BFamous (Jan 26, 2018)

I have been blessed in more than just the wood working aspect of my life to have found people who are generous with their knowledge. One of my closest teachers/friends (who unexpectedly passed away earlier this year) used to say that knowledge you don't give away only dies with you. Learning from him was literally like drinking from a firehose. I try to take that same approach with any knowledge or experience I may be able to impart on others.

That said, mentoring should be rewarding for both of you and should never be a burden or feel like an obligation. If he's using your shop and tools, make certain to also show him how to clean and maintain the tools when he is done using them. If he's not taking at least as much care in maintaining your tools as you do, you may want to revisit the agreement. I know if I were in his shoes, I would show up with the thought that I should be leaving your shop cleaner than when I arrived, and doing all of the menial tasks for you (without you asking). When you tell me I don't have to do that, I do it anyway. That's what a mentee does in order to learn a trade from the ground up…


----------



## OldOwl (Oct 19, 2018)

Well I just joined this forum, as an old newbie, as I am struggling to find a good approach to replace a tote on a vintage Stanley #5 I just purchased. I happen to be tall with large hands, and the broken wrist I had 30 years ago left me hurting after a bit of planing a week ago. So I am looking at this, and seeing the beautify work being done on some of the replacement handles, and I'm a bit stuck on how to make one large, whether it's possible to have one rise fatter than standard off the base without issues, and drill the holes spot on. So I joined this site, to dig a bit deeper, and this is the first string(?) I read. I just have to say that I'm very impressed with the thoughtfulness I've seen here, the recognition of the risks, and the generous nature of those posting.

Just saying.


----------



## Ocelot (Mar 6, 2011)

Oldowl,

Welcome!

I would recommend that you find the member called DonW, and look at his posts on the making of plane totes. Also you should post a new forum topic so that question is not buried in somebody else's.

The info you need is here somewhere.


----------



## OldOwl (Oct 19, 2018)

Thanks - not trying to take over this string. No replies necessary.


----------



## Ocelot (Mar 6, 2011)

No problem!


----------



## WoodenDreams (Aug 23, 2018)

It's nice to know it was a good outcome.


----------

