# I need help with re-veneering an Antique Billiard Table



## BeerBrewer (Jan 5, 2021)

I was given an Antique Brunswick Billiard table that is in very rough shape and I need advice on its restoration.

The table is a 9' x 4.5', has a slate top and was made somewhere between 1880 and 1904 according to Brunswick. The guy who gave it to me had it stored in pieces in his garage for years. Then for some reason, this summer he moved it out of his garage and into yard and stored it under a tarp. Well the dampness got to it and all of the veneer has literally come off, like a snake sheds its skin. The table frame is made with 2"x13" solid poplar with am oak veneer skin on the outside. Aside from a some checking and few broken support pieces the frame is essentially okay. Nothing is warped and I located a source of 2" thick poplar so I am sure that can repair the frame. The square legs will also need replacing since these were in very bad shape. They also were not the original and they were very poorly made.

I am concerned about re-veneering the sides of the frame. Originally they were veneered with heavy flaked Tiger Oak on the exposed side only. I've done veneer work before, but I've never veneered over solid wood before. I've been told that when veneering over solid wood to avoid warping issues that you should do both sides. That really isn't possible and its wasn't done originally. Has anyone done this before? Is there any special glue to use or technique? Any advice will be helpful.

Below are some pics of the table parts.

The pieces are face or veneer side down. The longer pieces in the first pic are the side









This is pic of the two ends. you can see a broken support that will need replacing.









Below is pic of the rails. Aside from being dirty and a tad moldy, they are otherwise okay.









This last pic is what the table should look like when I'm done.


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## BeerBrewer (Jan 5, 2021)

I made title more specific and I added a picture of what I HOPE the table looks like when I'm finished.

I'm not sure what technique I should use to attach the new veneer. I'm leaning towards using a gel contact cement. I'm worried about veneering over the poplar.


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## Bill_Steele (Aug 29, 2013)

I have used contact cement for plastic laminate, but not veneer-but I suppose contact cement would work just fine. You'll need to be very careful when you join the parts-instant glue connection.

I have a small vacuum bag (2×4) and a venturi type vacuum pump that I use for applying shop sawn veneer. This setup works very well.

There is a type of veneering called hammer veneering. I've never done it but I understand you use hot glue and a special tool called a veneer hammer to apply the veneer. The veneer hammer is used more like a J-roller than a hammer. This may be a good option for you.

I'm not very experienced with veneering, but I would be hesitant to apply veneer over solid wood. I think that the expansion and contraction of the substrate might result in cracking at the surface. I've only used plywood and MDF as the substrate so far.


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## sras (Oct 31, 2009)

You might want to reach out to shipwright - or at least look at some of his projects. He has several examples of veneering over solid wood.


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## shipwright (Sep 27, 2010)

Please don't use contact cement on an antique (or any serious veneering project).
This was originally done with hot hide glue and should be done that way again. Hammer veneering is well suited to the task but has a learning curve. It's not insurmountable and is a very useful skill to develop anyway but practice before you try it on the table.

Here's a start on hide glue. There is a segment on hammer veneering. PM me if you need help.
https://www.lumberjocks.com/shipwright/blog/series/5437


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

+1 on using hammer veneering with hot hide glue. I used it for the first time (after a little practice of course) on this project after looking at Shipwright's blogs on the subject and his advice and it was actually pretty easy, IMO. Checkout his video here to see the process. I also blogged a little about my learning curve with HHG and hammer veneering. You won't learn much from my blog except maybe the confidence that you can do it too.


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

Yes, definitely not contact cement!

Another vote for HHG. Like Lazyman, I'm a recent "convert" to hammer veneering. I used a cheap crock pot and it worked fine. You can make your own hammer, but I recommend buying one.

I've also used the hot iron method with PVA glue and that also works well. What's nice about HHG is dried glue cleans up easily and residue doesn't affect finishes. Can be a bit messy using it, have some hot water available to rinse your hands and veneer hammer.

Paul has been very helpful and generous to me.

Patrick Edwards intro to hide glue is worth a look see. He sells hide glue granules, too.


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## BeerBrewer (Jan 5, 2021)

I've never done Hammer Veneering before and I'm not adverse to trying it. Why is Hammer Veneering preferred over using more modern techniques? Can this method be used with paper or wood backed veneers?

I don't think that I'll be ready to start veneering for several months. The wood is still drying out. Even though the guy had a tarp over everything it still got wet and damp. Before I get to the veneer work I've got a few frame and rail issues to address first. Someone did a poor repair to the corner of one of the oak rails (pic below) that I'm going to replace. They made no attempt to match the grain and they used red oak. I'm also considering replacing a second rail because someone inserted an oak veneer patch into it, I'm guessing to repair a huge dent or cigarette burn. I've also got to remake the four legs, so the veneer work is a ways away.

In the mean time I'll read up on Hammer Veneering. Since you folks suggested it above I've already done some quick research on it and it seems doable. Frankly, I'm inclined to use this method since the table was originally done that way and it held up for over 100 years.

I really appreciate your input here!

Thanks


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## shipwright (Sep 27, 2010)

Use raw wood veneer. Backed veneers are VERY thin and allow no room at all for sanding. If it were me I would be looking at Certainly Wood's "special thickness veneer" page for some 1/16" white oak.
https://certainlywood.com/results-woodmenu.php?name=OAK&menu=1/16%20in.%20(1.5%20mm)%20quartered%20white


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## BeerBrewer (Jan 5, 2021)

In the past few days I've read a lot about Hammer Veneering and it doesn't look too hard. In fact it looks easier than contact cement. Is this method only used on solid veneer? Will it also work on paper or wood backed veneers? I'm also working on shelf unit for one of my kids and using a larger sheet would be easier than piecing together 6 or 8 inch strips together. I know these two types of veneer are very thin and I'm wondering it act of squishing out the hot glue with the hammer roughens up the veneer surface too much, because these can't really be sanded much if anything.

As for the table, I'm gently taking it 100% apart, so I replace the broken pieces, reassemble and re-glue all of the joints. I've also made a new while oak rail to replace the one pictured above. Its all cut out, shaped and sanded. I'm waiting for the diamond inlays to arrive in the mail. Once that's done I'll reassemble the rail.


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## shipwright (Sep 27, 2010)

I've never tried hammer veneering with backed veneers. I don't like them and don't consider them for quality work. They are more for large architectural surfaces like wall panelling. For furniture go solid veneer, the thicker the better up to ~1/16".


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## BurlyBob (Mar 13, 2012)

I'm late to the show and was going to advise you to contact shipwright. He's the veneer expert here as I see things.
I look forward to seeing your progress with that classic billiard table. I hope it turns out wonderful. Go forth and conquer!


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## BeerBrewer (Jan 5, 2021)

The only issue that I have with using solid veneers is that they don't seem to come wide enough. The sides of the table are about 12" wide and 6'-8" long. The original veneer was the full the full width of the sides with the grain running lengthwise, with beautiful tiger strips running up and down. If I use solid veneer, it looks like I'd have to seam the veneer right in the middle of the sides and I'd lose the tiger strips. I don't know how that would look like and I don't even know if I trust myself to do it. Is wide solid oak veneer still available?

A lot of the original veneer came off in big pieces. It looks like I'd almost have enough to reuse the old veneer to do the sides of the rails. There are large pieces that are grey and lumpy, but it looks like with a quick sanding and some flattening that I might be able to reuse it. Is this worth the effort?


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## shipwright (Sep 27, 2010)

If the original veneer is intact it may very well be useable. It would have been applied with hide glue and that glue was reversed by spending considerable time wet. This reverses the glue and released the veneer. A fresh application of hide glue will blend in with any old glue present and make a strong bond.
It is likely that the veneer is thicker than what is most readily available today as well. There is no better restoration than the one that uses the original veneer.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

Another thing to note is that cracks in the old veneer will often disappear or nearly disappear once reapplied as long as there are no slivers missing. The hot hide glue will also soften the old veneer which will help you re-flatten it as you hammer it down.

I would like to see some pictures of the old veneer.


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## BeerBrewer (Jan 5, 2021)

I thought a progress report was in order.

So far I've taken the table completely apart. I disassembled all but one corner and I cleaned and scrubbed everything. I've sanded down all of the rails and made a new rail using a piece of white oak. This one will replace the rail with the poor repair in the old pics. You can see the new rail it in the photo below, it just needs to re-glued the bottom section of the rail. I also picked up 10' x 14" x 1-3/4" piece of poplar to replace the broken/damaged pieces of the frame. I had to drive an hour and half to get it and it set me back just over $100. I made a new end piece for the tail end for the table. You can both the old and new tail pieces in the photo below. The old one was too just checked and cracked to be trusted. I was afraid the cracks would carry into the new veneer, so I made a new one. I've also found that no two pieces are the same on this table, each is a slightly different size and cut at slightly different angles. I had a heck of time cutting the compound miters since my radial arm saw could not cut completely through because the arm is too short. So all of the miter cuts were partially cut but hand and fine tuned with a block plane. I also made a new side corner piece, that is also shown in the pick.

I also bought new mother of pearl inlays for the entire table, since a lot were missing. I haven't installed the diamond inlays yet because I'm not sure if I should do it be before or after I put the polyurethane finish on. Thoughts???

I still have lots of broken support pieces to cut out. Once I have all the cracked and broken pieces replaces, I glue it all back together and assemble the basic frame of the table.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

Personally, I would stay away from modern finishes like polyurethane on an antique. I would probably opt for shellac- much easier to maintain over its next 100 years. I would also opt for liquid hide glue for any joinery as well to keep it consistent with the period and repairable.


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## Foghorn (Jan 30, 2020)

I would do the inlays before finish. I'm only saying that as I've done a lot of pearl inlays for guitars. Inlay flush or barely above flush to enable you to sand level before finish otherwise the thin shiny layer can disappear. You can always add veneer under the inlay if you accidentally go too deep but care when routing should eliminate that. I use epoxy for the inlays mixed with some of the dust from the veneer or whatever wood I'll be inlaying into. Dental floss laid under the inlays when test fitting is an easy way to get them back out before adding the glue. Keep it tight as lighter colored woods are less forgiving than woods like rosewood or ebony. Nice project and table!


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## shipwright (Sep 27, 2010)

Looking good.


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## BeerBrewer (Jan 5, 2021)

I'm definitely using hide glue, but I need to play with a bit before I use it on the table. As for a finish, I hadn't really thought too much about it, since its so far off. I've used shellac in the past and I'm not adverse to using it again. I was only thinking of using Polyurethane due to is durability.


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## splintergroup (Jan 20, 2015)

Lazyman is spot on with shellac to really get the depth and color from veneer, but one thing to be aware of with shellac. If a few years after finishing your table you are enjoying a game and accidentally spill an alcoholic beverage, the shellac will get damaged. A tough top coat would be prudent given the work effort you are undertaking.

Plenty of tough finishes available that don't get that covered in plastic look like poly can produced if not properly finished off.


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## PBWilson1970 (Jan 23, 2020)

> The only issue that I have with using solid veneers is that they don t seem to come wide enough. The sides of the table are about 12" wide and 6 -8" long. The original veneer was the full the full width of the sides with the grain running lengthwise, with beautiful tiger strips running up and down. If I use solid veneer, it looks like I d have to seam the veneer right in the middle of the sides and I d lose the tiger strips. I don t know how that would look like and I don t even know if I trust myself to do it. Is wide solid oak veneer still available?
> 
> - BeerBrewer


Quartered Oak isn't often found in 12" wide pieces, but you could always bookmatch consecutive sheets from a flitch to get the width you'd need.


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## shipwright (Sep 27, 2010)

> Lazyman is spot on with shellac to really get the depth and color from veneer, but one thing to be aware of with shellac. If a few years after finishing your table you are enjoying a game and accidentally spill an alcoholic beverage, the shellac will get damaged. A tough top coat would be prudent given the work effort you are undertaking.
> 
> Plenty of tough finishes available that don t get that covered in plastic look like poly can produced if not properly finished off.
> 
> - splintergroup


I agree that shellac is a great choice to keep it honest as an antique. While it is true that shellac can be damaged by alcohol, it is also very easy to repair, much easier in fact than polyurethane should it be damaged.


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## BeerBrewer (Jan 5, 2021)

I think I may have majorly screwed up! My table frame may NOT be poplar after all! My first guess was that it was made out of pine but I was told by several that was unlikely and that it was probably made out of poplar. Since the frame was painted red on one side and had old hide glue and all scuffed up on the other, I could not see the grain or know for sure what type of wood it was. Since I was using the old cracked and broken frame pieces at templates to assist in cutting out the new frame pieces, I was especially careful not to dent or damage the old pieces in any way. Well now that I'm finished cutting out all of the new frame pieces, I decided to cut one of old broken pieces in half, just to see what the raw wood looked and smelled like. Well, it looks and smells like pine! So now what???

So now my question, does it matter that one end of the table is mostly poplar and the other end pine?


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## PBWilson1970 (Jan 23, 2020)

Are you worried that the density of each piece of wood will give different characteristics when the billiard balls hit them?

Since there's a good deal of felt on each inner part of the table, I'd wager that there is nothing to worry about. If you're going to host sanctioned tournaments, then I'd be concerned. Poplar and pine are both lightweight and my gut says that it won't be of concern. A quick google of density shows them to be pretty much the same.


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## BeerBrewer (Jan 5, 2021)

Pine would have been a lot cheaper and easier to work with than poplar.

I am worried that the two different woods will expand and contract at different rates with temperature and humidity changes that will aversely effect how level the table is.

I just spoke with a pool table restoration place and they didn't think mixing some poplar with the pine frame would be an issue. They were more concerned about how 100 year old wood would react with 6 month old wood. They even said, that they would have done the same and used poplar. They said new pine is too prone to warping. On a positive note, they thought that they may have a set of used original turned legs that I could buy!

I guess I worry too much and like you said, since I'm not going host sanctioned tournaments no one will ever know the difference!


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## BeerBrewer (Jan 5, 2021)

Well I've made some progress on the Billiard table restoration.

I still have more work to do on the table frame frame, like drill the holes for the leg bolts and tighten up a joint etc, but I wanted to see if it still fit together before I went any further. So assembled and bolted together all of the table parts inside my shop. Unfortunately I don't have legs, so its sitting on some saw horses. Since I basically had to remake one entire end of the table I wanted to make sure everything fit together and I cut the compound angles correctly. I tried to save as much of the old table as possible and I may live to regret that. I wasn't able to get the older joints to fit together as tight as I would have liked. I am debating if I should also add a screws into the joints for good merit. This was my first project where I used Hot Hide Clue. I was very impressed with it. I first made up a small batch and used it to glue up some scraps, just so I could see how it was to work with.

Now to find or make new legs!


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## shipwright (Sep 27, 2010)

Looks great so far.

I have very seldom used any other glue since I started using HHG. So many advantages and so few drawbacks.


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## BeerBrewer (Jan 5, 2021)

I've located a source for some old billiard table legs from a billiard place about five hours drive from my house. They actually offered me a couple different sets of legs, each slightly different, but all of them look more like what would have originally been on the table.

Does anyone have a good source for solid veneer? I've searched the web and all seem to find is makers of paper and wood backed sheet veneer. I'm going to use hot hide glue and a veneer hammer to install the new veneer and I don't know how well the modern paper and wood backed veneers work with this process. I'm afraid that they will separate and they are also very thin.

Having said that I did find Certainly Wood (https://certainlywood.com/) in East Aurora, NY. They have a lot of solid veneer, but not exactly what I'd like at the moment. The table was originally veneered with Quarter Sawn White oak that had beautiful Tiger stripes in it. They used full sheets (no seams) to cover the 12" sides and I can't find anything wide enough. I can find wide enough white oak veneer and I'm seriously considering using it, but it was all flat cut so it lacks the tiger stripping.

I know that I could buy thinner veneer and book match it, but I'd prefer not to do that because I can't hand pick the veneer. I did find some very nice looking Quarter Sawn Red Oak veneer that would be just wide enough and I'm considering using it. Keep in mind the top rails are white oak. I'm also thinking about using a darker stain on the rails because they have some very dark stains and marks that won't sand out. Do you think the anyone would notice if I used red oak on the sides. Thoughts?

Lastly , would it look odd if I used a totally different wood veneer on the table sides, like walnut, mahogany, etc.? Again keep in mind the top rails will be darker stained white oak. Thoughts?


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## splintergroup (Jan 20, 2015)

The wider stuff is hard to find for sure, especially in QSWO. Narrower QSWO is easier to find with nice figure.
Thicker veneers like certainlywood carries would be more difficult to apply on curved surfaces.

Most all of the better veneer places have photos of exactly what you are buying. The link I provided has that feature.

Keep hoping! No need to compromise if you have the time to wait for exactly what you want.


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## shipwright (Sep 27, 2010)

Don't try to use paper backed veneer, if for no other reason because it is very thin. As far as getting good matches, anything you buy from Certainly Wood (or almost anywhere else) will be in consecutive leaves so book matching or slip matching should be no problem plus you do get to see exactly what you are buying.
Personally I would stick with White Oak and slip match it so it was hardly noticeable.


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## BeerBrewer (Jan 5, 2021)

My issue with book and slip matching is the length of the pieces that I'll be veneering. The side frame pieces are just over 78" long and the head and foot are 53" (both are 12" wide). I don't know if I have the skills to do seams that long, considering that I have zero experience with hammer veneering. I've only ever used contact cement and on a lot smaller pieces. Even if the seams did come out okay, I'm afraid that the grain will wonder enough to make the seam look very obvious.

So you don't think that I could get away with using quarter sawn red oak? Once stained it will be hard to tell the difference.

I agree with you on the backed veneers. Don't get me wrong they have a place, but not on a 120-150 year old pool table.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

Hammer veneering is much more forgiving than contact cement where you have one shot to get it right. With hammer veneering, you can slide it into place before you hammer it down. If the edges are straight, it is very easy to get nice tight joints that are nearly invisible, especially with sequence matched pieces. Even if something does go wrong you can use heat and moisture to get it back up to try again.

Red oak is just not going to look the same, IMO. It's tiger fleck rays just are not as prominent as then are in white oak.


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## shipwright (Sep 27, 2010)

I said what I would do, not implying that you had to.
You should get some practice first with hammer veneering, slip matching, and overlap and cut matching and then decide what you are most comfortable with.


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## BeerBrewer (Jan 5, 2021)

Shipwright…..no worries I was only asking for your opinion.

On second look I noticed that the red oak veneer that I found was too thin (1/42").

Frankly, none of the quarter sawn veneer that I've seen looks anything like what was on the table originally. The original veneer was heavy flaked with lots of "tiger" strips.

I decided to wait on the veneer until after I pick out the used legs. The guy has a couple sets. Who knows, maybe having the legs will help me choose the veneer.

I still can ONLY find one supplier (Certainly Wood) that sells 1/16" solid veneer that is long enough for my table. I found lots of suppliers selling short pieces of veneer but not near what I need. Does anyone know of another veneer supplier?


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## shipwright (Sep 27, 2010)

I have a stock of 1.5mm sawn veneer from Les Fils de J George in Paris that I treasure and use on my best projects but it is about 10X the cost of sliced and an ocean away. 
..... it is amazing material and worth every dime but nonetheless pretty pricy.


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## BeerBrewer (Jan 5, 2021)

I'd like some opinions about these two veneers that I found.

The first is wide enough to cover the sides of the table without a seam. Its definitely flakey, but its a flat cut veneer and not quarter sawn like the original.

https://certainlywood.com/images-locator.php?item=1/16%20W%20OAK%2020285-2B

This piece is quarter sawn, but will need to be seamed. I'm thinking about doing a book matched seam in the middle with the flaks forming arches. Not quite the original, but close.

https://certainlywood.com/images-locator.php?item=1/16%20QT%20OAK%2020310-4C

I also finished making a veneer hammer, this one is 6" wide and I, making a smaller one as well.









Thanks ahead of time!


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## splintergroup (Jan 20, 2015)

You are looking at a piece that includes (near) the center of the log. Think of it as a diameter cut of a full log.


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## BeerBrewer (Jan 5, 2021)

Yeah…..that's my issue, in a nut shell.


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## splintergroup (Jan 20, 2015)

You may need to talk with a veneer cutter and see if they can set you up with something wide, or at least help point you to a supplier.


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## shipwright (Sep 27, 2010)

You may be overthinking somewhat here. If you were to use either one and do it well you would get extreme kudos for the restoration,
..... but only from those who actually looked at it and thought about it. 
99.9% of those who see it will be more interested in the fact that it is a pool table that they can play pool on. Really only you will ever look critically at the veneer job.
Sorry but it's true.


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## Foghorn (Jan 30, 2020)

> You may be overthinking somewhat here. If you were to use either one and do it well you would get extreme kudos for the restoration,
> ..... but only from those who actually looked at it and thought about it.
> 99.9% of those who see it will be more interested in the fact that it is a pool table that they can play pool on. Really only you will ever look critically at the veneer job.
> Sorry but it's true.
> ...


So true.


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## BeerBrewer (Jan 5, 2021)

> You may be overthinking somewhat here. If you were to use either one and do it well you would get extreme kudos for the restoration,
> ..... but only from those who actually looked at it and thought about it.
> 99.9% of those who see it will be more interested in the fact that it is a pool table that they can play pool on. Really only you will ever look critically at the veneer job.
> Sorry but it's true.
> ...


I could not agree more. I am almost always my worst critic! I know me and if I don't get the veneering work done to my satisfaction I won't be happy.


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## shipwright (Sep 27, 2010)

Yes, I know that too.


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## BeerBrewer (Jan 5, 2021)

I thought an update on the progress of my antique pool table restoration is going was in order Admittedly, progress has been slow, but I have made some progress.

The rails are all plugged, sanded and ready for veneer. The frame of the table have been completely repaired and it too is ready for veneering. The rusty pocket irons have been cleaned up and all of the old leather has been removed. They ready for finishing. I'm either going to have them re-plated with Nickle or I'm going to just lacquer them if the platting is too expensive.

I also opened up one of the old legs and found what I think is a piece of the original legs inside. So I sent some pics to the Bankshot Antiques in Albany and they feel that the original legs where what they called "Pagoda" style legs. So a few weeks ago, while camping in the Berkshires in Mass, I took a drive I met up with the guys at Bankshot Antiques in Albany. They had quite a few "surplus" antique pool table legs laying around that they were willing to part with. They had several different styles to choose from, but after seeing how well the pagoda style matched what I found inside my existing legs, I had to go that way. They were painted black, so I could not tell what they were made of. So I stripped them (I'm almost finished) and attached some pics below. Over all the legs are vert solid. As you can see I need to do some repair work on the veneer and I'm not quite sure how I accomplish that. Advice would be appreciated!


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