# By Hand and Eye



## BigRedKnothead

Great review. I find I can't go through this book without a some dividers and paper handy. It's definitely impacted my furniture designs.


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## RogerBean

Thanks for the review. I just finished the book and was about to do one myself, as I believe this to be one of the most significant woodworking books in a long, long time. It explains the artisans who created some of the finest masterpieces of history used a rather simple system of proportions, contrasts, and punctuation to consistently achieve balance and harmony in the things they built.

While ancient, the elements of good design have not changed, but have fallen into disuse with the advent of machine made products. Measurement has largely replaced proportion as a working guide, and not for the better. What we often fail to achieve with today's CAD programs, these craftsmen achieved with a pair of dividers.

I enthusiastically add my recommendation of this landmark book. It's a must read for anyone who cares about the design and creation of wonderful furniture, whether traditional, craftsman, shaker, or contemporary. Walker and Tolpin have done us a great service.

Roger


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## SirIrb

What RogerBean Said.

And I am a CAD guy to the bone. I do it all day every day. But there is tons of beauty that is lacking with the hands off method.

You said some of what I wanted to but, not having the book at work couldnt remember.

Great read.


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## Buckethead

That's it. I'm going to lost art press right now.


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## CharlesA

I haven't read the book yet, but I have looked at a video and seen info on classes, etc. I think the reason the golden ratio isn't mentioned is because that goes against his whole premise, that the ratios you use grow organically (your hand) and a divider. He uses different ratios for different things-the golden ratio ends up being a bit artificial, particularly as it is expressed in decimal form.


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## wormil

The step stool video did a great job explaining the basics but does he address arbitrary proportions like the length vs width of a side table, table length vs apron height, or height vs diameter of a turned vase? (those are just some examples) I'm not setting up for an attack on the book by any means, it sounds fascinating, but we've all read books that promised the stars and left us on the moon. I guess what I'm asking is using this book, can I design anything with good visual proportions without ever using a ruler or any tried ratio like thirds or Fibonacci?


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## SirIrb

He doesn't hit turning. But the concept of taking a module or your first main distance or measurement and using that as the premises for setting up other details, be them width and depth or molding detail sizes is all covered. Basically when you build a table now you may make the apron 5 inches because it fits your eye, in this theory you may make the apron a ratio of 1:8 the module. don't like 1:8 because it ends up being 4.24 inches, go 1:7. It may end up being around your 5" apron but it would be proportionate.
Don't just take my word for it, type it in the interweb machine and see what everyone is saying. No, it won't design for you but it will change the game. I have been a design engineer for 16 years and this is a breath of fresh air. I design first class air plane seats. Yes, the book even changed that game.


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## TopamaxSurvivor

Great review, thanks. One reason he probably did not mention the Golden Ratio might be precise mathematical compliance is not necessary and it is really a modern invention according to Mario Livio


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## SirIrb

As soon as I read that it made sense. You got me. Also, somewhere else i read that the golden ratio is a Victorian "Invention". But it does show up in nature. I am pulled on it. I guess I will go with straight ratio and proportions and see how it works. 


> Great review, thanks. One reason he probably did not mention the Golden Ratio might be precise mathematical compliance is not necessary and it is really a modern invention according to Mario Livio
> 
> - TopamaxSurvivor


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## JimDaddyO

Got it, reading it, about 5 chapters in now and enjoying it.


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## SirIrb

Please let me know what you think. I was happy with everything from the binding to it being delivered 3 days early.


> Got it, reading it, about 5 chapters in now and enjoying it.
> 
> - JimDaddyO


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## RogerBean

George Walker's site (design matters) is always worth a read. His post this morning is a good one. https://georgewalkerdesign.wordpress.com
Roger


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## SirIrb

Good article. I cant wait for the work book that they are writing and, hopefully, the "New Book" is not the work book. Yes, I will buy both.



> George Walker s site (design matters) is always worth a read. His post this morning is a good one. https://georgewalkerdesign.wordpress.com
> Roger
> 
> - RogerBean


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## wormil

> Don t just take my word for it, type it in the interweb machine and see what everyone is saying.
> 
> - SirIrb


I looked up the handful of reviews and according to one this is primarily a geometry reference. And I found there is a second book planned that will focus on design. Another review mentioned there are errors in two music related ratios that will be corrected in future printings. I look forward to reading this at some point. Thanks for the review.


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## SirIrb

I caught the reference to another book this morning. I really cant wait. As far as the music reference, got me. I remember Pythagoras [words words words] and something about him walking past a blacksmiths shop. As far as music theory and accuracy, I usually rely on Metallica for that and take them at their word.

Hope you like the book.



> Don t just take my word for it, type it in the interweb machine and see what everyone is saying.
> 
> - SirIrb
> 
> I looked up the handful of reviews and according to one this is primarily a geometry reference. And I found there is a second book planned that will focus on design. Another review mentioned there are errors in two music related ratios that will be corrected in future printings. I look forward to reading this at some point. Thanks for the review.
> 
> - Rick M.


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## helluvawreck

Thanks for the great review.

helluvawreck aka Charles
http://woodworkingexpo.wordpress.com


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## TopamaxSurvivor

> As soon as I read that it made sense. You got me. Also, somewhere else i read that the golden ratio is a Victorian "Invention". But it does show up in nature. I am pulled on it. I guess I will go with straight ratio and proportions and see how it works.
> 
> Great review, thanks. One reason he probably did not mention the Golden Ratio might be precise mathematical compliance is not necessary and it is really a modern invention according to Mario Livio
> 
> - TopamaxSurvivor
> 
> - SirIrb


have you read Livio's book?


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## SteveMI

Great review, I just ordered it. I had bought the "To Make as Perfectly as Possible: Roubo on Marquetry" from Lost Art Press before and was impressed with it.

Steve


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## ColonelTravis

SirIrb, I posted it in the furniture forum and was too lazy to do a review. Glad you did, thanks. I really love this book. Pass it along to your coach seat colleagues! Getting on a plane tomorrow. Hate those non-front seats. Your seats are probably awesome. But I don't get to fly in your seats.

Didn't know a workbook was coming out - can't wait.

I didn't see this mentioned, but there are bunch of geometry animations that go with the book that you may find helpful. Or maybe not.


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## Slyy

Thanks for the review SL, saw talk talking about this over in the Furniture thread. Seems like it's definitley worth the read. I'll check it out as soon as I get the chance.


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## SirIrb

Read through both the authors web sites and it will pop up on there. They are writing a work book and a follow up book of some nature.



> SirIrb, I posted it in the furniture forum and was too lazy to do a review. Glad you did, thanks. I really love this book. Pass it along to your coach seat colleagues! Getting on a plane tomorrow. Hate those non-front seats. Your seats are probably awesome. But I don t get to fly in your seats.
> 
> Didn t know a workbook was coming out - can t wait.
> 
> I didn t see this mentioned, but there are bunch of geometry animations that go with the book that you may find helpful. Or maybe not.
> 
> - ColonelTravis


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## SirIrb

Bro, I cant afford to fly in what I design.



> SirIrb, I posted it in the furniture forum and was too lazy to do a review. Glad you did, thanks. I really love this book. Pass it along to your coach seat colleagues! Getting on a plane tomorrow. Hate those non-front seats. Your seats are probably awesome. But I don t get to fly in your seats.
> 
> Didn t know a workbook was coming out - can t wait.
> 
> I didn t see this mentioned, but there are bunch of geometry animations that go with the book that you may find helpful. Or maybe not.
> 
> - ColonelTravis


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## JimDaddyO

One thing I did figure out differently from the book was the picture on page 32. The way the 1/3 increment is figured in the books drawing will show you 1/3 from the edge. If you strike a diagonal in the lower right quadrant ( / this direction) the line with the "B" on it will cross that diagonal where the centre of the circle should be for 1 1/3 circles. Just project that point to the horizontal axis line.

I hope I explained that clearly.


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## SirIrb

I will have to see the book when I get home to understand.

One thing that I had was a "duh" moment. It showed how much overhang a table should have from the apron. He drew a rad from the table edge to the bottom of the apron. The apron drives the overhang. Duh. Now I wonder about those mahogany shaker end tables I am waiting on spring to spray. I am going to have to look them over. Which means I will probably tear them apart and rebuild them. Darn book.


> One thing I did figure out differently from the book was the picture on page 32. The way the 1/3 increment is figured in the books drawing will show you 1/3 from the edge. If you strike a diagonal in the lower right quadrant ( / this direction) the line with the "B" on it will cross that diagonal where the centre of the circle should be for 1 1/3 circles. Just project that point to the horizontal axis line.
> 
> I hope I explained that clearly.
> 
> - JimDaddyO


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Maybe the book's advocates with a better desigh background tha I can enlighten me on a pet peeve of the book.

These 'scales' appear throughout the volume:










And










The book explains so much that I like, but these indicators aren't explained and I've been left thinking I should get more out of them than I do.

It's actually a big reason I stopped reading at page 78, six + months ago and haven't restarted.


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## JimDaddyO

That pic is on pg 71 in my copy. My interpretation is that it is showing Doric proportions. Take the full height of the object, divide it in 5. The bottom 1/5 becomes the size of the base/pedestal (which itself gets divided by 5 for the details on it). Take the remaining 4/5's and again divide that into 5 and the top 1/5 of that is the top/entablature. The divisions continue and control the whole aspect of the object including the diameter of the column.

Basically it is showing how things are broken down into eye pleasing proportions that are all relative to each other within the unit. I am not much farther ahead than this (Just starting chapt 4), but I am suspecting that other classical forms use a different division number to divide by.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop

If gou can discern all of that by simply looking at fig 2.2.20, you're a better man than I… I don't get that at all.


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## SirIrb

I didnt get much either till I got to the part about using the sector tool. then it all kinda clicked. I would suggest reading it weather you get it or not. If you dont get it you are out 100 more pages. if you do get it you will be glad you do.



> If gou can discern all of that by simply looking at fig 2.2.20, you re a better man than I… I don t get that at all.
> 
> - Smitty_Cabinetshop


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## CharlesA

If you at pages 19-21, he tries to explain what he is getting at. My sense is that he thinks the diagram on page 21 really shows what he is after.


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## MikeThrockmorton

The difficulty I have with methods as described in this book (and other books) is the whole "pleasing to the eye" thing.

So do I first have to train my eye to think that 1/5 (or whatever) of this and that is pleasing, or are our brains and eyes have this already built in as some sort of neurological fundamental.

My method is to cobble stuff together by modeling to an end that to my eye is pleasing, then, I make that.

The more things you make, the more you understand what is pleasing to your eye so less modeling is required.

If'n I was making things for sale, I'd be more concerned about hitting the fat part of the "what's pleasing to most other people's eyes" bell curve.

I would probably love the book, but be trying to see how well the procedures produced stuff pleasing to my eye and regardless of the outcome, say "huh, interesting" and move on.


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## CharlesA

Mike, I don't disagree-it's one of the reasons I've never bought the whole Golden Ratio thing-some of the most incredible pieces are those that break the rules. There isn't a "right" ratio. That being said, I think my design work would be helped by thinking in terms of ratios for initial layout instead of the way I do it know, which is to start with measurements and then play with them.


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## CharlesA

Also, on page 58 he shows how the the way he displays proportions is consistent with their purpose:


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## SirIrb

I work with a bunch of industrial designers. And I get the whole pleasing to the eye all the time. There is a bit of truth to it. I have said in meetings "That is offensive to the eye" (I won the argument). I dont think this is training your eye in as much as it is "Here is a method of using ratios that will assist making things pleasing to the eye. Rather than saying "Ill make the tables apron 5", you make it 1:7 the modules (say table height) ratio. It may end up being 5.345 but because you are using a sector and dividers you may not even know the width in inches (especially if you set the fence of the saw with the dividers).

hope that helps.


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## MikeThrockmorton

Hi Charles,

Yah, I start with "scale". Like end tables have a basic scale, chests of drawers can vary, but each class has a scale.

Then there are some basic measurements where furniture pieces may have to relate to other furniture pieces. Table heights, widths, etc.

After having set my basic scale, I don't go back to measuring much other than to check measure verify I haven't brain farted along the way (like that ever happens) as a kind of sanity test.

Chairs, not that I have the hubris to make any yet, are like wayyy differerent. My eye doesn't have to sit down so it is rather aloof in re chairs. Me bum and back would have to have their say and for the purpose of chairs I would definitely enslave myself to an authority's method.


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## CharlesA

a lot of things I build end up with one dimension set by circumstances-the space an end table can fit, etc., and then everything else works from that. I also think that some times the ratios are a bit arbitrary on where you measure from. I just designed a piece with three legs where I used a circle to determine the positioning of the inside of the three legs. Turns out that the diameter of the circle is exactly 1:2 of the height of the piece. However, I have no idea what the outside diameter of the legs is and what ratio it is to the height. Maybe I'll check . . . Turns out it is 29 5/32:36. Can't imagine that is one of the standard ratios.


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## MikeThrockmorton

Charles,

"Also, on page 58 he shows how the the way he displays proportions is consistent with their purpose…"

Thanks! That illustration demonstrates a whole other dimension to the book.

I guess I'll have to buy it. I have such a list of things I'd like to buy. And a list of money. The lists don't match up real well.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop

> That pic is on pg 71 in my copy… The divisions continue and control the whole aspect of the object including the diameter of the column.
> 
> - JimDaddyO


Again, there's simply no way to discern diameter of the column shown in fig 2.2.20, and that kind of 'inferred' material is exactly what I don't like about this book. I've played music my entire life, I get the whole look and feel thing and have an artistic side. Towards Charles' points, Fig 2.2.1 is one that recall clearly, but I'm left curious as to the relationship between the two 'contrast' proportions shown. And again at the top of figure 1.2.3: Is that contract indicator telling me the two sides are each half as wide as the middle section, or simply that they're each equal to each other but there's no proportional relationship between the outside sections and the middle?

Is that supposed to be discernable by the fancy 'contrast' symbol?

In Figure 2.2.20 above, the left-most "punctuation" proportions doesn't all seem to be relateable to each other. If they are, and I'm supposed to gather that by looking at each column of punctuations, I'm not seeing where that's explained.


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## SirIrb

I really think the next section of the book about the sector will assist. They will have related proportions, they will not just be "These two sides are the same and the middle is just whatever I want it to be." This gets into the harmony part. 


> That pic is on pg 71 in my copy… The divisions continue and control the whole aspect of the object including the diameter of the column.
> 
> - JimDaddyO
> 
> Again, there s simply no way to discern diameter of the column shown in fig 2.2.20, and that kind of inferred material is exactly what I don t like about this book. I ve played music my entire life, I get the whole look and feel thing and have an artistic side. Towards Charles points, Fig 2.2.1 is one that recall clearly, but I m left curious as to the relationship between the two contrast proportions shown. And again at the top of figure 1.2.3: Is that contract indicator telling me the two sides are each half as wide as the middle section, or simply that they re each equal to each other but there s no proportional relationship between the outside sections and the middle?
> 
> Is that supposed to be discernable by the fancy contract symbol?
> 
> In Figure 2.2.20 above, the left-most "punctuation" proportions doesn t all seem to be relateable to each other. If they are, and I m supposed to gather that by looking at each column of punctuations, I m not seeing where that s explained.
> 
> - Smitty_Cabinetshop


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop

^ To get to page 79 was a serious struggle, but I'll trudge forward. Just about as hard a start to a book as Tale of Two Cities was in middle school…


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## SirIrb

I am reading this now for the second time. It is better the second time around because if you dont get very well what one writer is saying the other will make it clear. then when you reread it you will get what you missed. Also, it helped me on Jeopardy! last night.

I would suggest it if for nothing more than understanding the sector, making one and starting there. the ratios will come in time.

Looking forward to the release of the workbook they are putting out.


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## Bill_Steele

Thank you for this review. I might just have to get this book. I noticed that there is a companion book called "By Hound and Eye"-do you or anyone else have this book? I wonder if it's worth getting both?

I've made a couple pieces of furniture (or furniture like-e.g. porch swing) projects and I'd like to get more knowledge-so maybe this is just the ticket. I've read a little about the golden ratio and I try (when I remember) to apply it to my designs.

Thanks.


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## SirIrb

Bill, 
I have read about it. https://georgewalkerdesign.wordpress.com/ And will pick it up in the future. If it is anything like Hand then it will be good. Hand and Eye is a mind blower when first read. After the second time it makes more sense. I would give it a shot to avoid all those "Its ok but there is something that just isnt…I dont know…its, off somehow."


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop

I've got the Hound workbook, haven't had time to look at it. I'm open to have my mind blown, we'll see.


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## SirIrb

Smitty,
Come back and comment when you read it. I am very interested in part II. Did you read the first book?


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Irb, my reading list has been on back-burner for awhile, unfortunately. But I'll report when Hound gets a look.


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## G5Flyr

> Just about as hard a start to a book as Tale of Two Cities was in middle school…
> 
> - Smitty_Cabinetshop


"Just had a flashback. Thanks for stirring up my PTSD Smitty," he said with a chuckle.


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## G5Flyr

SirIrb,

Thanks for the GREAT review. You've generated a wonderful conversation here. Smitty might not be able to get passed page 79 but I've read your review and every reply to your post. Everyone has put forth some very thoughtful comments. I'm ordering the book and its companion (By Hound and Eye) as soon as my CFO gives me authority for procurement.

BTW - I can't help but wonder if you've had anything to do with the seats into which I strapped myself for 30+ years. Have you ever done cockpit seats or just the pax cabin?


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## SirIrb

I am sad to say my experience has been limited to pax seats including economy class (aka cattle cars, aka who pays the bills on a regular basis) business/premium class (this is the division I work in and have for the majority of my time at the company I work for), and once I designed stew seats.

What airframe did you pilot?



> SirIrb,
> 
> Thanks for the GREAT review. You ve generated a wonderful conversation here. Smitty might not be able to get passed page 79 but I ve read your review and every reply to your post. Everyone has put forth some very thoughtful comments. I m ordering the book and its companion (By Hound and Eye) as soon as my CFO gives me authority for procurement.
> 
> BTW - I can t help but wonder if you ve had anything to do with the seats into which I strapped myself for 30+ years. Have you ever done cockpit seats or just the pax cabin?
> 
> - G5Flyr


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