# Saws, using collecting, cleaning and buying



## donwilwol

Following some of the plane and other tool threads has been pretty interesting and informational for me. My thought, why not a saw dump. I'm starting to gain some interest after picking up this Disston 70.

Today I found a chest full of tools with two interesting saws. A E M Boynton, which I haven't discovered a whole lot on yet and a back saw by Wheeler, Madden & Clemson that operated in Middletown NY from 1860 to 1890.









I'm planning to restore these when time allows. I'd like to see others that have done the same.

My Saw restore and sharpening reference blog.


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## WayneC

This shouild be an interesting discussion. I'm looking to get some good handsaws up and running.


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## Dcase

About a year or so ago I picked up two old back saws and restored them. I never really used hand saws and I thought it would be nice to have a couple on hand to use if I ever needed them. I never had any intention of collecting saws…...

A year later I have at least 30 to 40 saws scattered about my shop. I guess the saw collecting bug bit me the same way the hand plane one did. For me, saws are much easier to restore then the planes at least until it comes to sharpening them. I am actually starting to get the hang of sharpening saws but I still need a lot of work. The first two old backsaws I got sat in my shop for more then 6 months before I found someone who could sharpen them for me. I found a local tool collector who specializes is saws and he was kind enough to sharpen them for me as well as teach me how to do it. I had never used a sharp saw before and wow was it amazing. If sharpened well they cut like a knife through butter. I use them all the time now.

Here are my restored backsaws, a pre civil war Disston backsaw and a GH Bishop saw. I have the Disston filed Rip and the Bishop cross cut. The Bishop is my favorite. The handle is very comfortable.


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## TopamaxSurvivor

I have several that I intend to do someday. I have the files, saw vise and saw sets; now, time??


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## Brit

Dan - I love those back saws. You did an amazing job restoring them. What was your finishing regime for the handles?


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## DMIHOMECENTER

You have done a very nice job, Dan. They look nearly new.

I am supplementing my few hand saws and miter back cut saws (Stanley and Buck Bros, etc.) with a range of very small disposable Zona modeling saws and several larger but still small Shark saws. I'll work my way up to the bigger and/or older boys later (maybe).

The only time I use a hand saw is when I cut 16' material down to 8' at the suppliers yard so it will go on the 6 1/2 foot bedded truck. But usually we have the 8' truck or the 14' flat bed trailer for materials pickup.

The only time I use a hand miter saw and box is when the motored saws are all out and I'm in a pinch. That's very rare. I believe if I had a collection of those saws that they would be rarely used, but pretty to look at.

Great idea on a thread for saws. We'll have all these categories covered soon and they'll be there and growing as time shuffles on. Thanks.


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## donwilwol

I love what you've done with the back saws. I hope mine come out that well. How did you restore the blades?


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## donwilwol

If you look at Mads blog some of his saws have a metal plate on the side of the handle. Has anyone in the states seen this? Know any history?


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## Brit

Although a lot of you have probably seen the folowing pictures before, I think they deserve a place on this thread now that we have one dedicated to Saws. Hand saws and back saws are probably my favourite hand tools. There is just something about them. For me, it all started when I decided I wanted to learn to sharpen saws and bought an old Spear and Jackson 26" crosscut saw off eBay. The picture on the listing was crap and the description was something like "Old saw, says Spear and Jackson. Needs a clean." I got it to practice on.

When I opened the package, it was love at first site. This is how it looked when it arrived. You can read more details about this saw here.










and here it is after a bit of TLC.










I've said it before and I'll say it again. Totes don't get any better than this:










Here is how the saw plate looked before and after cleaning:


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## RGtools

I may have a saw problem.


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## Brit

RGTools - Wonderful saws, but I wouldn't you have a saw problem yet, just a healthy appreciation for good tools. What are the hand saws? Are they all Disstons?


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## bigike

Me myself I wouldn't mind getting an old saw and cleaning er up but I know nothing about the old saws cept for disstons,tyzack,spear and jackson,stanley,marples,sheffield saw co.,zona. So as you can see it's just names that's it, plus after getting my table saw I hate sawing by hand now unless it's dovetails but I need a lot of practice on those so I'm gonna stick to the jigs for a little. If I ever do get a saw I know where to look for help though and you can count on it being one of the names up above I mentioned or something newer.


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## bigike

Sorry for the ramblings, You do have some work ahead of you though please keep us posted.


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## RGtools

Brit

ECE bow saws. (love them)

2 Disstons, 
1 keen cutter.

2 craftsmans that I have tweaked to do the good work they should have been made to do in the first place.


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## WayneC

My latest saw….

a 15" bow saw…


I'm thinking I will make a 12" next.


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## Brit

Nice one Wayne. Here's my latest saw as of yesterday. Needs a little TLC, but it will clean up fine. It has a couple of broken teeth apparently, so I'll be re-shaping the teeth on this one. Its a W H Armitage & Co, London Spring steel, made in Sheffield. 14" blade, 18 1/2" overall. Handle is sound with no damage. weighs 800grams.


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## WayneC

Good morning Andy. That is a very nice little saw. I would love to come across the pond and poke around at some boot sales. It would be a lot of fun to find something like that.


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## Brit

Here are some of my other saws that I use and love. Three Gramercys (can't recommend these highly enough), followed by some Sharks with disposable blades and a Veritas Flushcut saw, then a couple of fret saws. Lastly, a couple of Diston D8s that I recently restored.


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## WayneC

The D8s are things of beauty. How do you like the sharks? I've seen them in the local stores.


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## Brit

The Sharks cut beautifully. I don't use them all that often, but they come extremely sharp and stay sharp for a long time. I bought the set of three from an online UK shop that has them on offer every now and again. The top one cuts through a 2×4" like butter. The second is rip one side and crosscut the other and is probably the one I use the most. The little one is crosscut both edges, fine and very fine teeth and is useful for cutting beading. I don't like the handles on any of them personally. a) they are plastic and b) uncomfortable for any extended use.


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## Tedstor

I truly appreciate saws and would love to find some nice specimens, worthy of restoration. Unfortunately, the only vintage saws I ever seem to find are WAAAY too beat-up, pitted, or bent for me to even try. 
But I'll keep looking none-the-less.


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## RGtools

Brit, how's the tension on those fret saws as opposed to a coping saw? And how do the blades hold up. I have been thinking about grabbing one for dovetail waste, because I hate my grandfathers coping saw.


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## Dcase

Brit - I sanded the handles by hand starting at 180 grit and worked up to 320. I think they were cleaned with simple green before sanding. I then finished them with a few coats of Zinsser Shellac and after they dried I polished them with a very fine abrasive pad. I think I put some paste wax on also.

Don - For the smaller backsaws I removed the handles and soaked the blades in EvapoRust over night. After I took them out of the EvapoRust I washed them off and started sanding. It can get very tricky if you are looking to expose an etch. I always always start by using a sanding block. I just use a piece of scrap wood with sandpaper attached. If blade is rough I start with 220 grit. It is important to use a sanding block if you are wanting to uncover the etch (if its even there still). If you use abrasive pad, steel wool, or even sand paper without a block the abrasive pads or paper will go into the etch and ruin it. With a sanding block the sand paper will ride right over the etch.

I will sand the blade with 220 until I start to reveal or uncover the etch. As soon as start seeing the etch I stop with 220 and move up to 400 grit wet/dry paper. If you are not trying to preserve or uncover the etch then you don't have to be as careful when sanding the handle. Once I can see the etch I just sand the blade carefully and move up to higher grits. You will want to be careful not to fade the etch. If your sanding is fading it then you should stop sanding the area over the etch. Again, thats only if your looking to reveal and keep the etch.

I worked up to a very fine grit with my backsaws but you can stop sanding when ever you are happy with the look of the blade. After I finished sanding I polished the blades with metal polish.

Here is a great example of a saw etch that I uncovered. I got an old handsaw from a garage sale and when I got it you couldn't see any etch at all. This is what I found after cleaning it up. Cant see in the first picture but once you get close..


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## Dcase

You can also darken or "raise" faded saw etches by using Gun Bluing. I have never done this but I have read about it from more then one place and it seems to work well.


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## DaddyZ

Nice Blog going !!!


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## mafe

What a wonderful lot of saws here, I am really impressed both by the quality and the work done to restore them.
Wauuuuuuuuu.
I just posted today on my saw blog: http://lumberjocks.com/mafe/blog/24080
After seeing some of these old wonderful saws here I cant wait to get there.
Best thoughts,
Mads


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## Bertha

Andy, are those D8 handles shopmade?


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## donwilwol

So, my goal was to finish this this week. With a little extra time today, and it not taking as long as I expected, here is the disston 70:


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## mafe

Wonderful saw.
Best thoughts,
Mads


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## WayneC

Wow Don, that came out wonderful.


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## Dcase

Don, I love the open handle design on that Disston saw. I have an old Disston handsaw with a really neat open handle but I have not been able to find it on the Disston site. I will get some pics and post on here tomorrow. Maybe someone here can help ID it.

Great job on the restore.


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## Brit

Nice job on the saw Don, looks great.

Bertha - No, I didn't make the handles themselves. When I bought them, the lacquer on both handles was badly cracked and flaking off. I scraped and sanded it back to the wood and refined the shape slightly to make them more comfortable to hold and to remove chips and scratches.

1. Sanded carefully and thoroughly up to P600 grit.
2. Liberally applied a coat of BLO with a paper towel. Added more to areas that kept soaking it up. After about 30 minutes, I wiped off any excess and left it for 48 hours to dry.
3. I mixed up a finish that was about 1/2 BLO, 1/4 Pure Turps and 1/4 Oil-based polyurethane. I wiped on 3 or 4 coats of this finish over the course of a couple of weeks, letting it dry thoroughly each time.
4. After the last coat, I left the handles for two weeks and then rubbed them out with Liberon clear paste wax applied with Liberon 0000 steel wool. I let the paste wax dry overnight and buffed it up the next day with clean soft cloth.


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## mafe

Andy that saw handle finish is so wonderful that I doubt it could be done better.
I am so impressed and feel really lazy - lol.
Best thoughts,
Mads


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## Brit

RGTOOLS - Sorry I forgot to answer your question about the blades on the two fret saws. Tension isn't a problem, but make sure you get the right blades. For removing dovetail waste you want 12.5tpi skip tooth blades. Yo have to order these separately as the saw is fitted with a different blade when it arrives. Unlike a coping saw, you can't rotate the blade relative to the frame. Instead you insert the 12.5tpi skp tooth blade, tension it and then twist the blade at each end with a pair of pliers. I'm left-handed, so I hold the saw vertically in my left hand and the pliers in my right hand and twist the blade about 20 degrees to the right. Twisting the blade at both ends enables you to remove the waste from dovetails regardless of the width of the wood. If you are right-handed, you would twist the blade to the left.

As to how the blades hold up. Very well. Don't get me wrong, they are easy to break, but if you are careful, the blades will stay sharp for a long time and they remove the waste very quickly.


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## donwilwol

Andy, I love your back saws with the brass backing. I agree with Mads too, really nice finish job on the handles.


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## Brit

Mads - it was a bit of an experiment really. I'd never used BLO before, but I tried it on a piece of scrap and liked the richness it gave to the wood. It is important that you sand very carefully first though, as any scratches will show up with BLO. I thought I'd been quite thorough, but it could have been better in places.

The first coat was BLO straight from the bottle. The wood soaked that up straight way and I swear it burped out a "Thank you". However, I thought I needed it a bit thinner, so I added some turps until I got a consistency that wiped on easily. I added the oil-based Poly, to improve the protection level. Not sure if it made any difference really.

I didn't sand between coats at all, but rubbing out with paste wax and steel wool got rid of any dust nibs and the odd fly that had settled in the finish. Like I said, I was just experimenting.

Although it turned out Ok, I don't think it is my ideal saw handle finish.

I think my ideal would be:

1. 1 coat of BLO. Allow to dry thoroughly. Add more coats until you are happy with the colour.
2. 1 barrier coat of dewaxed shellac. You can use the different colours of shellac flakes to further tint the colour if desired.
3. 3 coats of water-based diamond hard acrylic satin varnish. I love this finish and it is touch dry in 15 mins, recoat after 2 hours. You have to work very fast and don't expect it to flow out like oil-based varnish.
After the last coat has thoroughly dried, rub out with fine scotchbrite pad and paste wax.

Although I haven't tried this yet, I think it will give the beauty of BLO, the strength and endurance of Daimond hard acrylic varnish and the wonderful smell of Liberon paste wax. The acrylic varnish continues to harden over 2 months to become incredibly tough.

The nice thing about this though is that you use the BLO to get the colour you want. If after one coat it isn't dark enough for you, just apply more coats until you are happy with the shade. The shellac won't change the collour that much and the acrylic won't change it at all, just add depth to the finish.

Whereas with a BLO, turps and Oil-based poly mix, you have to kind of guess at how much the colour is going to continue to change with each successive coat of the mix. So you could end up with needing to apply another coat to get the right level of protection, but not wanting to because one more coat will make it too dark.

One thing I have learnt in the past though, is that you can't rush a good finish, although I have often tried. You need to be patient. 

Must get back to work now.


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## RGtools

Thanks Brit.


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## donwilwol

My wife was reading the other day. To darken BLO, add some ground up creasote from the chimney.


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## Dennisgrosen

great blog here  
I have a question to all becourse I´m a little confused about the handle on some panelsaws 
and how the angles on some of them is nearly 90 degrees or over 
and others is more like the open pistolgrib closer to 45 degree
I can understand the angle to bee 45-60 degree 
but when you use a panelsaw you want to have your cutting angle thrugh the wood to be low
as possiple to avoid tearout on the backside but the saws with 90 - 100 degree handle 
force you to raise your saw more and will give bigger tearouts on the backside … so whats the point
I hope you get my point…... but look at Britts comment with the pictures of the spear and jacskson saw
and the picture of the Distons …. and see the different in the angle on the grib 
I just don´t get the meening of why the distons have the high angle on the grib ….......... help me to understand why it should be better

take care
Dennis


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## donwilwol

Who can tell me what kind of saw this is?


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## donwilwol

And what this is:


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## Dennisgrosen

to me its looked like a man has changed the fretsaw to his own way of sawing a speciel thing

Dennis


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## Dennisgrosen

its cutting round and can be adjusted as I can see …...but what it cuts I don´t know 

Dennis


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## donwilwol

yea, I assumed it was some kind of circle cutter. I almost think I've seen one before. Somebody has to know. It was in the bottom of the chest of goodies. The saw I've had. I don't even know where I got it.


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## Brit

Looks like a bear trap to me Don.


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## mafe

Circle cutter for leather washers, rubber or other.


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## Dcase

So how many guys here sharpen/file their own saws?

There have been many good conversations on this site in regards to plane iron and chisel sharpening but not much lately on saw filing.

I touched on it a little in an earlier reply but after I restored my first two backsaws I wanted to have them professionally sharpened because I didn't know how to do it and I didn't want to mess up them up trying. I had the hardest time finding someone that offered the service. I did find a few good places online but that would have required me shipping the saws out and they all had a longer turn around time. I decided to ask the guys at the local Woodcraft store if they knew anyone, possibly a regular customer or someone they could refer me to and they were clueless. Even the old timers that were working there had no clue. I couldn't believe a big woodworking store like that didn't have so much as a local referral. My local Woodcraft even has an shop in house and they offer a lot of classes a few of which deal with sharpening but nothing on filing hand saws. After that I realized saw filing is a lost art and I decided it would be great idea to learn how to do it myself.

Shortly after that I just so happened to meet a local woodworker/tool collector who's specialty was hand saws. I told him about my saws and my desire to have them sharpened so he was kind enough to offer to sharpen them for me. Not only that he offered to show me how to do it. I got lucky because he really knew what he was doing and did a fantastic job on my saws. I was able to retain enough of what he showed me to start doing my own.

I am still in need of much practice but I am starting to get the hang of it.


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## Brit

I am going to teach myself Dan, so is Mads. I'll soon have 3 handsaws and 2 backsaws to shapen. I'll make a saw vise first, then I'll get to it. i've read a lot of information from quite a few sources and I think I know what I want. Just need time to make it happen.


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## Dcase

I have only had what I would call decent to good results on one of my old hand saws as far as the sharpening goes. Its sharp, it cuts but its not a knife through butter just yet.

The whole process is really straight forward I just have to get used to the feel and keep a consistent angle as I push the file.

I planned on making my own saw vise but I ended up finding an old cast iron Disston saw vise on ebay for pretty cheap so I got that. It holds the blade very tight.


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## RGtools

I do my own sharpening and am rapidly becoming a saw geek as a result. The best thing to do to learn though is to find a saw like a Disston D8 and try to replicate the pattern that is their, (that will get you the "feel" really quick), when you are first sharpening start at the heel of the saw. Since these teeth are not used very often it gives you a good idea of what the others should be like, and if you mess up a bit it's not going to affect you performance to much. By the time you get to the cutting surface you have usually gotten into a good rhythm.


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## Brit

Dennis - The angle of the handle or tote on a hand saw or back saw is referred to as the '*hang*'. Please bear in mind that I'm not claiming to know the answer to your question and I can't find any definitive reference material that describes why the handle on a saw is at a certain angle. However I do know that the 'hang' of the handle on a saw is very important. One of the tests that a finished saw underwent was called 'The Hang Test'.



















The important words here are "Feel how the weight comes where the most cutting takes place."

Now look at the following two pictures. My S&J and a Disston D8 (not mine).










The red line indicates the angle of the handles, the blue line is the toothline and the yellow line (perpendicular to the red line) shows where the maximum power is transmitted at the toothline.

Although the S&J and the D8 are both hand saws, that is really where the similarities end. The S&J is made of cast steel and is therefore heavier than the D8. The Disston has a skewed back and that means less metal which also makes it lighter than the S&J. Could that be a reason why the S&J handle is more vertical (i.e. in order to counter the additional weight)?

Another difference is that the S&J has a straight toothline, whilst the D8 has a crowned toothline. That means if you hold the saw with the teeth uppermost and sight along the toothline, you will see that the middle of the toothline is slightly higher than the ends. The theory behind this is that if you think about the motion of your arm when sawing, the arm is delivering the most power as your upper arm and forearm form a right-angle. With your arm in that position, the center of the toothline is cutting the wood. Look again at the yellow line on the picture of the D8. Is it a coincidence that the power is directed at the middle of the toothline?

Also, the hang of the handle affects the angle at which you present the saw to the wood when cutting on a saw bench. Which hang angle provides a better angle of presentation is a matter of opinion. Personally I do not think that the hang of the D8 handle and the crown in the toothline make the saw cut any better than the hang of the S&J combined with the extra weight and straight toothline.

With all that said, the following is my opinion as to why the hang of the D8 is the angle it is. I think it is all down to the manufacturing process employed. If you look at the top of the handle on the S&J and any other saw up to the immergence of the D8, you will see a slot where the blade fits into the handle. However if you look at the top of a D8 handle, there isn't a slot at the top of the handle. That is because the slot on the D8 was the first to be cut with a circular saw blade. When you consider the curvature of a circular saw blade, the hang of the handle would have to change to make room for the curved cut. In my opinion, that's why Disston made it the angle it is. It was cheaper and quicker to manufacture. To compete with Disston, other manufacturers such as Simmonds followed suit. I think all the other reasons are just Disston marketing BS, dreamed up in order to sell saws to the masses. Just my opinion, I'm just thinking out loud and I won't be offended in the slightest if you disagree. 

What ever the reason, the D8 was the most popular saw ever and you can't argue with that I suppose. But does it necessarily follow that is was also the best? No, at least not in my book.


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## Dennisgrosen

thank´s Andy for a very fine explanation …..........but 
if it was cheaper to make the handle so it had that angle 
then why didn´t Diston continued with it …. looking at newer Diston saws including no. 8
have the the handles like the S&J …........... and all the new saws with plastic handles have the same 
more or less 
so I don´t think it was becourse of the heavier blade S&J made it with that angle

but I can follow your explanation on where the power will be delivered ….. thank´s

Dennis


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## TopamaxSurvivor

I am sure Diston made that saw to get the most bang for the buck or sawdust in every cut. I have noticed the natural motion cutting with a hand saw is a bit of an arc. I'm sure they were trying to take advantage of that. A carpenter whose dad worked back with all hand tools told me his dad said 3 cuts to cut off a 2×4. That means an efficient tool. Before nail guns, I saw a lot of carpenters sink a 16d in two hits. One to start it and one to finish the job. They hit it a lot harder than I ever would to start it ;-)) Not with my fingers in the line of fire!


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## donwilwol

Wayne, Can you explain the use of a bow saw. Same sort of question I asked on the drill brace. Why would I want one? I hope that doesn't sound bad, it an honest question.


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## WayneC

Think of it as a hand bandsaw for making large controlled curved cuts. Note the white template he is following in the photo below. There are also some frame saws that can be used for resawing.










http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=GT-BOWSAW12&Category_Code=TS

Here is a link to a frame saw used for ripping/resawing…

http://www.hyperkitten.com/woodworking/frame_saw.php3


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## donwilwol

Somewheres Andy posted some really good information on file sizes and such for saw sharpening. Of course i wasn't smart enough to book mark it. Anybody know where it is?


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## donwilwol

ahh, like a big coping saw. maybe I do need one of those.


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## Dcase

Don, I am not sure what was posted by Andy but here is a link to a site where I get most of my saw sharpening info. It has pretty much everything you need to know. A great resource.

http://www.vintagesaws.com/cgi-bin/frameset.cgi?left=sawcare&right=/library/primer/sharp.html


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## donwilwol

thanks Dan


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## dbray45

If you find an old Disston manual, it goes into this more but that link is really good.


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## Brit

Hi Don. The saw sharpening info I posted can be found on post #2 of the 1860's Dovetail Saw Restoration started by CharlesAuguste. The 'Saw Filing - A Beginner's Primer' link comes from the Vintage Saws site that Dan refers to and was written by Pete Tarran. You can't go wrong if you follow his instruction and advice when learning to sharpen saws.


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## donwilwol

thanks Andy. I knew I read it and I knew I meant to save it. Maybe I did and don't remember where I put it.


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## Brit

Just won this little beauty.










Vintage Tyzack & Turner tenon saw (1930s) which was a special order for a client. 18 1/2" long overal, blade 14" long, 4 1/2" deep. The teeth are all good. The blade has never been resharpened and is full depth.


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## donwilwol

I like it.


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## Dennisgrosen

congrat´s Andy 

Dennis


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## dbray45

Its a funny thing, I bought a Disston (new) serveral years ago. It sat and sat, started to rust, neglect was an understatement. The thing was factory sharpened (stamped only) and was uncomfortable to use. In my quest to learn how to sharpen, this was the saw I picked up to work on. I still reached for the old Disston that I bought more recently at a show from Tom Law. A few weeks ago, I picked up this saw and decided that the real problem was the handle and grip. It was the standard, punched out, almost molded wood handle - and really uncomfortable to use.

I took out the rasp, files, sandpaper, and BLO and started rounding and smoothing out to something similar to the old Disston. In about a half hour, this thing fits your hand, is comfortable, doesn't wear blisters and in short, is a joy to use. When you think about it, it is really sad that a company that was a pillar in quality workmanship sank to a level that produced tools that were not worth buying more than once. This also illustrates even with the lower quality, it can be fixed.


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## Brit

Very true David. Did you catch this thread on reshaping handles by Paul Sellers and this one.

Please would you post a picture of your finished handle? I'd love to see it.


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## dbray45

I think those were the ones that got me thinkin. I will see what I can do about a picture. Won't show much, most of what I did was round out the grip on all sides so the handle wasn't squared off.


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## Dennisgrosen

thank´s Andy for the links 
those two blogs just surfed to fast for me to notice :-(

Dennis


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## need2boat

So like many on the list I've found some "local" good deals on a few saws and would like to give a try at sharpening. I've been following the thread and just wondered if anyone could talk about what to look for in a clamp. There are always a few on ebay. I've read that many of the older clamp that attach to the bench with a twist screw really don't stay put well.

Also has anyone watched Tom Law video. I find for me watching is often a better way into my thick skull. ;-O


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## RGtools

See if you can get a book from your local library. The 7 Essientials of Woodworking (I think that's the title and there is a plane in there) you can make a saw vise that works a heck of a lot better than what you can buy. 2 pieces of mdf a strip of, hardwood, a piano hinge and some rubber blocking. If you build yours right you will not need the clamps like I do.










If you opt for buying on, the two things you want to look for are a solid way of bolting or clamping to the bench. And make sure that the jaws grip at the ends and top. Slip a piece of paper between them and see if it slips. If it slips in the center that's OK, hollow is better than humped when it comes to a seating surface.


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## Brit

Joe - Click the '1860's Dovetail Saw Restoration' link in post #60 in this thread. There you will see a link to Lee Valley's site with instructions for making a saw vise.


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## donwilwol

I came across this site." http://www.mjdtools.com/":http://www.mjdtools.com/. It is an auction site that allows for online bidding. It currently has a whole lot of saw vises, along with a few pretty cool planes for auction. I guess you just pay shipping.


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## donwilwol

here is a got article about saw vises. http://www.wkfinetools.com/hUS-saws/z_reading/VwVices/VwVices-04.asp


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## mook

Brit,
Good to see some real Spear and Jackson saws. Unfortunately they seem to have now gawn to the dawgs-they even fitted plastic handles at one stage, after re-modelling the handles - see some of Mads's ones.


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## mafe

Wayne, what a beautiful spokeshave on the table of that picture. I might have tou make a Veritas.
Smile,
Mads


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## donwilwol

For those still wondering this apparently is a railroad hacksaw. I can't find much information on it, but I did find this on ebay.









RARE MILLERS FALLS NO 24 HEAVY DUTY RAIL HACK SAW TOOL


----------



## Dennisgrosen

thank´s for the update Don

Dennis


----------



## TopamaxSurvivor

Thanks Don. I have seen those before and wondered what they were. Never thought of hack saw ;-)


----------



## pierce85

I know this is tool gloat but… I picked up this vintage Henry Boker saw set for $21. I have no idea what it's actually worth and I really don't care. It's just very cool to me and my first saw set. Thanks to this thread, I'm getting into the vintage saw scene.


----------



## Brit

Pierce85 - That is very cool. They don't make them like that anymore. I've no idea how that set is used though. I can't work it out. Its very different from the pistol grip anvil saw sets that are generally used today. Nice find though.


----------



## need2boat

Thanks everyone for the help on the vise. I've found a friend in the area who has one so I'm going to give his a go. He doesn't use it much so provided to meets the needs I'll most likely buy it.
I did see this on on cleaning saws and thought it was a simple way to go. link

cheers

Joe


----------



## need2boat

sorry the link was to the mail page give it a go

Joe


----------



## donwilwol

this vise looks pretty cool and pretty reasonable. probably because its mis labeled.


----------



## WayneC

It looks pretty good.


----------



## donwilwol

I've got 2 now, that's enough for me. I know a few others were looking for one. I stumbled onto it looking for something totally different.


----------



## need2boat

Hey Don, its funny, I looked at that one as well.

I had posted I was looking for one and advice on what to look for. I ended up finding one that was made in syracuse NY.

I liked that it was attached to a block of wood that could be tightened into a vise since I didn't want to clamp or bolt it to the table. It also has a good clamp that I thought if need be I could adjust to make it tighter. As it turns out it holds the blades fine.


----------



## need2boat

OK, well I found some time over the weekend to dig into some of the saw I've collected on CL and a few from my grandfather that have needed some TLC.

I read somewhere on this list about a rust cleaner. 









Well I have to say I was impressed. I really bought it to clean 2 carpenter's squares that were so bad you couldn't even tell they had numbers! After reading the bottle I poured about a 1/3 of the gallon into into an old large sheet pan I've used in the past under a car. I left them to soak and cleaned off and on first with a scotch brite pad and later with 220 paper. Happy with the results I tried 2 of my saws.










The saws really weren't as bad so the images don't look that impressive but it really did make short work of cleaning any rust. When I have some time hopefully later in the week I want to work on the handles a little.

I have about 4/5 more to clean up!


----------



## RGtools

I have an odd issue that I could use some help on. I went to clean up my 4 tpi Disston today (5 dollars and the thing is pretty darn clean) but I can't get the handle off. All of the saw-nuts came out except one…that one just spins endlessly and I can't figure out how to make it stop. The sawnut goes together like this, one side Flat-head the other side belled (no way to hold), any thoughts on holding the belled side to get the screw out?

I can always cut a notch into the belled face for a flat-head screwdriver, but that would just look wrong.


----------



## need2boat

Ok last post ;-)

A few of the saws I have go to a point with the nub on the end. Can someone tell me whats this is for? I have two that are slightly different but the same type of design.


----------



## donwilwol

I just learned about these as well. Its called a Nib. Just search LJs for saw nib. Most believe its just for decoration, but there doesn't seem to be a definitive answer. I think there is even a discussion earlier in this thread.


----------



## Dennisgrosen

RGTools 
here is a tip but you have to be carefull when trying not destroying the wood

on the fare side you can use a flat screwdriver as a wedge between the head and the wood 
if there is room for a very thin peice of metal then put it under the screwdriver to help preventing
the wood get damaged

maybee a little light tab on the head with a hammer when you have the other side placed on a wice 
will help too to loosen the two parts …. they can be like welded together with rust like gum
so they need the little tab to crack it

these two small tips have helped me before …........maybee even a little dab of thin oil is needed
the evening before you try the other things

Take care
Dennis


----------



## Brit

RGTools - If they are brass they won't be rusted. I would tear off a piece of gaffer tape about 1 1/2" square and tape it over the side without the screwdriver slot so it stick to the bolt head and the saw handle around it. Then press your thumb hard on the back of the bolthead and stick a screwdriver in the other side of the bolt with the slot and give it a quick twist to see if you can crack it open.


----------



## Brit

Nice saws Joe - Please post some pictures once you've cleaned them up. I love to see old saws brought back to life. I just won this 14" tenon saw on eBay. I couldn't believe it. I put in a silly bid before I left home in the UK this morning knowing that the auction would be ended by the time I arrived at my destination in Denmark 7 1/2 hours later. When I got to the hotel, I logged on to find I'd won this beauty for £16 including postage.


----------



## Dennisgrosen

congrat´s Andy 
I did saw it on the Ebay but I have to take a brake at the moment 
the pipeline with the goldcoins is blocked at the moment ….. can you find out whats wrong 
in the other end 

Dennis


----------



## need2boat

Andy I'll for sure post some pictures.

I want to try my hand at sharping one of these before putting the handles back.

I've read a few of the on line links and I've got a local supplier that has lots and lots of files on hand from the late 70's when he was a wholesaler.

Should I be looking for files branded for saw sharping or just match them to the size of the teeth. I'm sure he will have what's needed just not sure what I'm looking for.

Joe


----------



## RGtools

I'll give that a try and report Brit. Thanks.


----------



## WayneC

Pretty Saw Andy….


----------



## Brit

Joe - Follow the link in post #60 in this thread. There you will find a lot of information on saw sharpening, including what files to use. You should use files specifically for saw sharpening because it is not just about whether or not the file fits in the teeth. It is also important to get the correct radius on the edge of the file so that the gullets of the teeth ar formed correctly.


----------



## joey

Hello I'm Joe and I have a saw problem…lol I keep finding old saws cheap and buying them, just picked up a disson dovetail saw yesterday for $3 the plate was straight but the tote needed a little tlc so I cleaned up saned the and shaped it to fit my hand a little better and sharpened it and now I think it will be one of my favorite saws.


----------



## WayneC

Great buy Joe. I need some of your luck…


----------



## need2boat

Hey Andy,

thanks again. I'm going to figure out what I need and order some files. I figure once in hand I can match them local or at lease see if they have anything.

Joe


----------



## RGtools

Lie Neilsen sells saw files fyi.


----------



## Brit

Joey - I think I've got a saw problem too. Braces and saws are my favourite tools at the moment. I've got a lot of saw restoration work going on at the moment, but working away all week in Denmark has meant that progress has been slow. This week was different however because I made space in my suitcase for a beat up backsaw handle, some sandpaper and a couple of sets of files. I spent a few hours last night sanding and shaping the handle out on the balcony of my hotel room as I watched the sun setting below the horizon. Since I'm going to be here every week until February 2012, I think I'm going to have to get a bit creative to get my weekly woodworking fix.

I stopped in on Mads again last week and we talked for so long, that I missed the last train back and found myself standing on a deserted train platform at 2.20am in the morning. Thee was supposed to be a train, but the train company had other ideas. Luckily I managed to get a cab back to where I'm staying, although it cost me 620 Danish Krone (Ouch!!!!!)

Note to self - Don't talk so much next time. Wouldn't have missed it for the world though. Always nice to catch up with Mads.


----------



## Dennisgrosen

you have to take care near Mads or the time will fly …..na doesn´t matter what you do
the time always two hours ahead of us in his company …................... LOL
you shuold have seen some of the stunts I need to take to catch my train to get the ferry
in time last time I was in CPH at Mads´s place

how far away from Mads is your hotel since it cost 620 Kr. 
Dennis


----------



## Brit

Dennis - Hellerup to Helsingor. As you well know, taxis are expensive in Denmark and then they add on tax for using a British credit card too, but they are also very good. Most of the time I'm not paying for it, so I don't care.  Its a shame you don't operate in the North Dennis. It would be hilarious if I phoned for a taxi and you turned up. Mind you I probably wouldn't recognise you without your blue hat on.

Take care,

Andy


----------



## Dennisgrosen

LOL


----------



## donwilwol

I thought this was something different when I picked it up yesterday. For $3 I'm still happy. This is after cleanup and restore.


----------



## Brit

You just can't go wrong for 3 bucks Don. It would be rude not to give it a home! How long is it? Maybe its the perspective in the photo, but it looks about 30".


----------



## donwilwol

It's a disston D-23, 26 inch blade.


----------



## RGtools

My 23 is my favorite saw. The thinner plate is a treat.


----------



## donwilwol

If I didn't already have 2 or 3 vises now, this one interesting.


----------



## Dennisgrosen

nice sawvice


----------



## mochoa

Here is my entry. I bought it at a thrifts store for under $2 and just finished refurbishing it including a new handle from Mahogany scraps. Now I need to learn how to sharpen it.

Does anyone know what modle Disston this is?



















Here is the before pic.









Here is my blog on the process. http://lumberjocks.com/mochoa/blog/24887


----------



## need2boat

Hey Mochoa,

These are to great sites for info on D saws

http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/

http://www.vintagesaws.com/front.html


----------



## need2boat

Since everyone seems to be having great finds. I'm posting with the hopes to be posting some good finds soon. I'm meeting up with a friend of a friend to look at some "old tools" they have from the parents. In my experience this can be anything from a beautiful old plane to a rusty old hammer. She sent me a picture of what looks like a nice old D-7 so I've got my fingers crossed.

Shes lives in Philly so disstonian saws are popular from back in the day.

fingers crossed

Joe


----------



## donwilwol

Pulled this out of my "saws needing attention" box;


----------



## donwilwol

So I found out over here that this was a jointer for saw filing. The question I have is how useful are they and how much should be spent to pick one up?


----------



## need2boat

Don,

I have the same style jointer. a few companies sold very similar designs. I bought mine about a month ago on ebay for around 15.00 shipped. Now knowing a bit more I'd say don't bother unless you want the vintage tool. .

You can make (or may already have) the a jig that will work. Cut a slot that fits your mill file in a 2" X 2" 5in-ish piece of scrap hardwood. The file fits in the slot about a 1/2 inch or so and holds the file at 90 to the wood. The metal jointer were sold with a file and some have a tooth gauge as well really all they were used for was to hold the file. The jig I described is the same one I use for sharpening my scrapers so you may already have one.

I got the idea watching the lie nielsen vid on sharping on youtube
 
part 1

part 2

JFF


----------



## need2boat

Just to follow up my post earlier on my Saturday apt to look at some older tools. It was a bust for the most part. She had 7 older disston saws but everyone had really bad rust issues just at the tips. It was a real shame considering the rest looked to be in good shape.

I ended up buying them as the handles were all good as well as he screws which I find are often missing. I'll post some pics of the handles.

Has anyone used old saw blades to make scrapers or other things? I hate to throw them all away.

JFF


----------



## Brit

Need2boat - Won't know if this is an option until you post pictures, but if the saws are only badly coroded at the tips, you can always cut them down to make smaller panel saws. For example, 26" down to 24" or 22".


----------



## need2boat

I thought about that Andy but considering these are not high value saws I didn't think it was worth the work. I didn't clean them but I'd say they look like D-7 or D-8 and maybe a D-23 or something like it. I didn't think it was worth it. I started to pull the handles so I could start cleaning them.

Joe


----------



## need2boat

OK no pictures. My shop is about an hour 1/2 from my apt and I thought I stuck them in my car but I guess I didn't. I'll post some later in the week.

I did however find this great trick for unsticking bolts. I'm guilty of cutting a slot in a few over the years so I look forward to giving this a go.

trick for unsticking bolts.


----------



## RGtools

That is freaking awesome. I will be doing that on a few of my saws. Thanks for the link.


----------



## DaddyZ

That is a cool Idea !!!


----------



## need2boat

So I've read on line a few places that when the saw is really out of joint its just easier to have them recut from a local shop. So just wondering when others are drawing the line.

I pulled one of the worst saws I had to practice on and it took me three rounds of sharping and jointing to even everything out. I'm hopping now that it's in joint it shouldn't take a long in the future?

What have others found.

I took this on the first pass with the first dozen or so sharpened.










Joe


----------



## Brit

It really depends how bad the saw is in the first place Joe. If the teeth are really bad, it can easily take 2 or 3 goes to get it anywhere near decent again. On the other hand, once you have shaped the teeth properly, you won't have to do it again for a long time. You'll just have to run the file over the teeth to joint them and go straight to the sharpening. Looking good though.


----------



## need2boat

Thanks Andy,

Have you used a local sharpener service to recut teeth? if so have any advice on what to look for or ask before leaving your saw.

I'll post pics when I get home but I have two older split nut saws that looked to have been hand filed some years ago and are really dull. One is 5 TPI and I feel I could get that back into joint. The other is a back saw and the teeth are so small I'm not sure even with time I'd get them jointed without a lot of work. I was thinking of having the saw teeth recut to something like 15tpi. I think once they are in good shape I could sharpen in the future fine.

JFF


----------



## Brit

I'm not aware of any service in the UK that will recut teeth on a hand saw. I know there are some places in the US, but that is too cost prohibitive for me. I'd rather do it myself anyhow.


----------



## need2boat

Well there's a market for you.

I've been reading a little about the Max Manufacturing Burr retoother. It's what Bad Ax tools uses looks to be quite small.

Joe


----------



## dbray45

Do you know how many teeth per inch you want and if it is rip or crosscut and perferably what set you want?

Specify these, if they cannot do them you don't want them doing the work. If you want them to just retooth then specify how many tpi and you sharpen and set accordingly.


----------



## need2boat

Yes I want to recut the back saw is currently at 14 and I'd like to either keep it at that or cut it too. I was considering to file it rip but it's currently cross-cut but it's hard to tell. The last time it was sharpened I'm guessing is better them 20 years ago.

The saw is a Richardson Brothers Saw Works - Newark, N.J. that dates around the mid to late 1860's blade is 12" X4"



















The other saw I picked up is warranted superior. I couldn't really find much about the Medallion on-line but I haven't had the time to clean it. I have my split nut screwdriver here and I'm not sure I really want to fuss with it. It's 26", 5 tpi and filed rip. Has almost not set but still kind of shart



















JFF


----------



## dbray45

Shouldn't be a problem being retoothed, they both should clean up really nicely. May want to clean them up before you have the teeth done.


----------



## Brit

Yes, definitely clean the saw plates before getting them sharpened. Lovely saws by the way, particularly that back saw. The handle is to die for! I've never seen a handle that shape and with a double nib too. I thought the double nib was a feature only found on Disston back saws. Obviously not. Please post pictures once you've finished restoring them.


----------



## mochoa

Hey where do you guys get good files for sharpening your saws? I bought a cheap one and it doesnt seem to be lasting very long.


----------



## docholladay

OK. I'll bite. Here are two back saws that I have restored that are posted here on LJ's.

Disston No. 4 http://lumberjocks.com/projects/34203

J & H Henry Dovetail Saw http://lumberjocks.com/projects/32644

Unfortunately, I have about 15 other saws that I haven't touched yet. Saw problem. I don't have a saw problem. Naah! Not really. Weeellll. Maybe just a little bit. No. I need them. This saw makes different kinds of cuts than that other saw. Sure, that will work. Oh Honey. Did you hear that? Oh! Help Me!

Doc


----------



## RGtools

I sent my wife to the shop to grab a saw the other day. She came back after a while with the correct saw in hand exclaiming "You have a lot of saws!" Note to self I love her and she is staring over my shoulder. See you later guys.


----------



## need2boat

I found all the info at vintage saws to be very helpful so I thought it only fair to buy the files from him. His prices and shipping are about the same as any others. I've done about 3 saws and feel they have worked well.

Regardless whoever you get them thru. If your working with out of joint saws don't think one file is going to last you a lifetime. Reshaping out of joint teeth can take it toll on the file.

Joe


----------



## RGtools

Agreed. Files are a heavy wear item if you restore your own saws…or even sharpen them.

Got a really nice saw vise this weekend I'll have to show pics soon.


----------



## need2boat

I do plan to clean up the saws before I sharpen them. I just don't own a split nut screwdriver yet! ;-)

The last of the saws I got over last weekend was one I just loved the look and proportion of. It's also a warranted superior saw that may have been cut down but I don't think so. It's just at 20" and 10TPI.



















It does have some etching on the blade so hopefully I can get some info off it when I clean it.

Joe


----------



## Brit

Need2boat - Regarding a split-nut driver, why not make your own. Check this out.


----------



## dbray45

In Tom Laws' video, I think he states that files will do 2, maybe 3 saws. I use older files to do initial cleanup and a newer file for the finish sharpening.

Veritas, Highland Woodworking, Rockler, Peachtree, Woodcraft, Sears - all have trianglular and feather files to sharpen saw blades


----------



## mochoa

Or, one saw 3 times unitl you get it right. ;-)

I just sucessfully sharpend my first saw last night! Woohoo.

It took me a secound round of sharpening before I got it right. I think my mistake was not sharpening from both sides of the blade to balance it out so it was drifting off the line. I would lightly file the teeth on that side to get it cutting straight but then I didnt have enough set and the saw would bind. I did it right the secound time and now its cutting pretty good. My file is done though.

By the way. French ripping is a pretty good abs workout.


----------



## mochoa

Does anybody have/like old Stanley Miter Saws?


----------



## dbray45

I used to have a Stanley miter box, my sister has it. Looking for another one to replace it - why do you ask?

My first try was about 4 times on one saw to straighten and sharpen, should have been retoothed.


----------



## mochoa

RG stated a thread about getting rid of your electric miter saw. Don't know if I'm ready for that but I think an old Stanley miter saw would be great for the shop as well as for the kids to get started in woodworking.

At the same time I'm wondering if using the old miter saw isn't more practical for cutting crown molding inside the house. It would save a lot of walking outside to go use the powered saw.


----------



## donwilwol

I'd like to pick up a Millers falls miter. I looked at a Stanley a while back, but it was to pricey for me.


----------



## dbray45

I gave my electric miter saw to my daughter. It did a pretty fair job at screwing up crown molding. The old Stanley with a sharpened backsaw was always clean and sharp-it was also a lot harder to cut off your thumb where the electric can do that job real fast.


----------



## need2boat

I bought a used Ulmia 354 miter box with a few extra blades off CL and find it works great for small fine cuts but I don't tend to make too many picture frames.

I thinking for many of the jobs I could use something like the battle ax hook set and will make something I can use with my back saw I just got.


----------



## rustfever

We have to stop meeting like this!

You LJ's got me started collecting and restoring plans and I am now up to about 30. What are you trying to do, get me now started on hand saws?


----------



## Dcase

I have a Millers Falls Mitre Box that came with a 26in Disston Mitre Box Saw… The box is very well built almost all cast iron. It has adjustable stops on it and a holding block to cut crown molding. I had a friend who is experienced with sharpening saws take the saw and sharpen it for me. I actually am expecting it any day now. I cant wait to use it.

Ill post some pictures when I get the saw back.


----------



## donwilwol

@Rustfever, misery loves company. Note none of my braces are restored yet, but Andy is pushing and pushing.


----------



## dbray45

Rustfever-

You haven't graduated until you start making your own planes. You have to have a couple of good saws to make a plane.


----------



## Brit

Don W - Isn't it about time you pulled your finger out on those braces brother?


----------



## donwilwol

See, what did I tell you guys. Wayne is already calling me a collector


----------



## DaddyZ

If it looks like a nut, its not a screw !!!!!


----------



## RGtools

I upgraded this weekend.


----------



## WayneC

Lol. At least your not a woodworking Poser….


----------



## donwilwol

seriously I'm thinking of making a few "investments" in antiques tools. With the money my 401k has lost over the last few years I could outfit a pretty nice shop.

RG, that vise looks pretty clean.

Brit, I actually took a brace off the rack yesterday. After a long stare, I set it back. I just can't get motivated yet. To many planes left to do.


----------



## RGtools

I have been please with the vise thus far but my custom sharpening station just became more needed….I can't believe I am going to admit this….but I think I may have too many projects.


----------



## donwilwol

Well if it helps I disagree. You just have to little time.


----------



## donwilwol

I cleaned this one up today and sharpened:

































I'm not sure how well you can see it, but there is a ruler etched in the blade. You can make out the inches along the top. Its a C E Jennings. I tested it by squaring up and oak 2×4.


----------



## Dennisgrosen

niice job 
funny to see not just the ruler but allso the total different shape on the handle 
where the blade is and seing the screws lined up compared to other sawmakers 

thank´s for showing 

Dennis


----------



## donwilwol

if you look in front of the screws there are 2 cooper pins too. They are just driven in flush on both sides.


----------



## Dennisgrosen

I didn´t noticed that :-(
or ells I would have asked what it was never seen it before …. that just saying I know nothing 
reasonly I did get a few old saws now I just need to find a sawvice to the right money
but no hurry there sofare I have plenty restoring jobs waiting …. and afraid of how much
the humidity in the basement will set me back …. don´t think I oiled the other tools enoff
to pass the flodded basement with out rust …. well that time that sorrow … I gess it will
take a few month before I´m thrugh everything and can consentrate on restoring new things

Dennis


----------



## Brit

Nice saw Don.

Dennis I think the straight edge on the handle was so that carpenters could also use the saw as a square. That is also why it has the rivets to stop the handle going out of square with the back of the blade. As a square, its probably not very accurate, but for rough work it would be Ok.

Is it square Don?


----------



## Dennisgrosen

AAh … and here I thuoght it was a newer thing on plastichandled saws

thank´s Andy

Dennis


----------



## need2boat

Don,

sweet looking saw. Now that I've had a little experience handling saws I'm getting a little better at knowing if it's a keep or not. Around me 99% of the saws are Disston, since I'm about 20 min from where the factory was in Philly.

RG. was that on ebay? I think I looked at that. It's a nice size for longer hand saws. How long it the clamp?

Joe


----------



## need2boat

Has anyone found a good way to deal with a kink in a saw? I got a otherwise good saw that has a single kink in it and I figure I might as well give it a go before I set it aside. The kink fall about 3/4 of the way down and not real bad. I just some light force to just bend it back without much luck.

I'm not must of a metal worker and didn't know if I should just try and lightly tap it out from top or should I use a punch and work the kink back out.

joe


----------



## mochoa

Hey I'm going to Philly this week. I've got my recommended spots for Philly Cheese Steak Sandwitches set. Now where are the good thrift stores for picking up saws???

Do you think I can carry that on?? ha ha ha.


----------



## donwilwol

Andy, you're a wealth information! I'll have to check and see how square it is. That makes sense. I'll try to remember this evening. Its amazing how long I've used hand saws, and never seen anything like this. I'd think it would be a more common practice, especially on the new tool box saws. Maybe it would take to much to actually make them square. They'd have to charge an extra 50 cents.

Thanks…..


----------



## donwilwol

And ….. I want you to know I actually started taking the head off one of those braces yesterday. It wouldn't come off, so I put the screws back in it and went to the house to re-read your blog. I would have been pissed after beating that sucker off only to find it was threaded.


----------



## Brit

Hey Don, how do you think I found out that some of the heads unscrew? Yes that's right, beating the sucker with a mallet. Luckily I found out before I hit it too hard.


----------



## need2boat

Hey Mauricio,

If you have the time I'd say walk the small italian section around 9th between Christian and washington. everyone in Philly makes a cheese stage but really I very much like a small hole in the wall place called Geroge's sandwich shop. I'd say go for the pulled pork with long hots.

Joe


----------



## mochoa

Thanks Joe,

It seems that if you ask 10 people you get 10 different places. I went to ginos and pats last time mostly just to say I did also pats was my buddies favorite but I don't think he has ever been there sober.

Well see if I can steer my work trip to 9th and christian, thanks for the map. Are there a lot of thrift stores there?


----------



## Dennisgrosen

*Need2boat *:
I think this is what you surch for and is a good place to start 
Mr Smalser is realy knowing his stuff when it comes to giving tools there life back
so they can become usefull again

http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/bSmalser/art/strSawBlade/strSawBlade1.asp

Dennis


----------



## donwilwol

I'd say its square enough for framing.


----------



## TechRedneck

I've been following this thread and finally had a chance to snap a picture of some saws that were my grandfather's. The cabinet saw is an Atkins, I have no Idea what the other's are. If anybody recognizes please let me know. I can't find any markings on the handles of the smaller saws and want to know if they are worth restoring. The Atkins may be worth the effort, however the handle was painted green for some reason.

The saw on the top actually has two cutting edges and can be easily flipped by using the wing nut on the handle.


----------



## Dcase

Techredneck- That Atkins saw is a keeper. I would def take the time to clean that one up. You can strip and sand the paint off the handle and refinish it.

I don't think the other 3 would be worth spending much time on. The bottom one looks like a newer box store back saw. The one on the top almost looks like it could be used for pruning.

That Akins though, thats a really good looking saw.


----------



## RGtools

Joe. it was at a hodge podge style antique store. I don't to a lot of ebay becasue I can't paly before I buy. I have to wait longer for what I want as a result but it's worth it.

My 28" saw seemed to clamp quite securley in it for jointing but when fileing I repositioned the blade during the cut once for stability sake. not bad at all since the cam clamp works so fast.


----------



## need2boat

RD:

When I was looking to buy my vise I was so worried about it having a tight clamped I didn't think about how long the clamping bar was. I figured they would all be about the same size but my disston vise is 10 or 11" which isn't bad but I've seen much longer ones.

Joe


----------



## RGtools

For efficiency sake a full length saw vise would be cool bu this works fine for a guy who is just maintaining their own tools.

I do have a questions for those in the room though. There are two holes tapped into the back of the vise that are in line with each other and have a wingnut in the back to tighten onto some bar the same way a modern plow plane holds onto the guide rods. With the bar gone it's hard to tell what in the Sam hill are those for?


----------



## Dcase

Just got my mitre box saw sharpened. With a sharp saw this mitre box is an amazing tool..


----------



## dbray45

I have a co-worker that is planning to sell an old Radial Arm saw on CL. It was old when he got it several years ago and had a fried motor. He had the motor rewound and he tells me that it works great - but he has two RA saws. His price is more than I can pay, about $450-500. If anyone is interested, PM your email and contact info to me and I will pass it on to him so that he can contact you directly when he is going to sell. As a rule, he takes his tools very seriously and takes good care of them, he is an ASME certified auto mechanic as well as an IT person.


----------



## need2boat

RD:

The thumbscrews held a bar that has a sliding jig to hold your file. 90% of the vises I've seen are missing all or part of it and from everything I've read it really didn't work well. These are from one on ebay now. . . and I'm sure it will go for twice as much. I have this same model and paid 30.00 shipped.

Joe


----------



## RGtools

I figured it was something along thos lines. Muscle memory is a pretty good jig in my experience…much more adaptable that way. Thanks for showing me that.


----------



## debdaz

My goodness..this thread is amazing. the pictures of some of these tools is fantastic. thanks


----------



## need2boat

RG:

I think a jig is really helpful to remember the angle but having it fixed to the vise is really not going to work well. All that sliding of metal, to much friction

I find the wooden block on the end of the file works well and when I deal with the compound angle I first tried the wood block you sit on the teeth but found it's just as easy to use a adjustable protractor on the bench.

Joe


----------



## need2boat

The last few weekends with all the rain in my area I've been enjoying another love, white water kayaking. With all the talk on saws I don't think anyone has posted about tills or places to store them. I've had this one started for a few weeks and just not finished.



















you can see more about it under my projects but the design was all about fitting a spot in my small shop but I still tried to make it something nice to look at.

Joe


----------



## donwilwol

nice till.


----------



## dbray45

That is something I need to do. Really nice job.


----------



## donwilwol

Guys, I'm not sure how much its used but I did a hand plane reference blog a while ago. I'd likr to do the same for hand saws. If you post a site here, I'll add it.


----------



## Bertha

I've officially joined. My Saw blade came out of the shock tank yesterday and is lying between two papers saturated with PB blaster. My original handle was reconstructed from jig-saw-puzzle-like disaster to something resembling a handle. Dry and damaged, I filled the cracks with CA and will soak it in BLO beginning today. The sawset is in the shock tank and I bought a bunch of tiny triangular files yesterday. I will post pictures later!


----------



## Bertha

It is now later.


----------



## Dennisgrosen

*NO !!* ....


----------



## Bertha

sPowerbrushed the blade with brass, then another coat of PB










Soak in BLO in the sun.


----------



## RGtools

I did not need this. But I had to have it.


----------



## Bertha

^whoa! I would have to have it to. Full spine. Man!


----------



## donwilwol

RG, you need a big ol' miter box to go with that!. Is that the way you got it. I understand the "I had to have it"!


----------



## RGtools

An oily rag to prevent rust is all I did on that one. I my have to make it fully shiny later. Still VERY sharp too. I see some big sliding dovetails in my future…I have to justify it somehow….right?


----------



## Bertha

I got my Disston sawset out of the shock tank, disassembled it, pb blasted it, and oiled it up. I hope I put it back together correctly; any help in its use appreciated.




























Cleaned and oiled the blade and soaked the glued handle in the sun in BlO. getting there!


----------



## Bertha

'turned a little knob for my file










And sharpened some teeth


----------



## Bertha

I need some instruction on proper teeth angle sharpening and set. I know they're here; I just cant find them


----------



## donwilwol

www.vintagesaws.com/library/primer/sharp.html


----------



## Bertha

BINGO. DEAD ON. THANKS DON.


----------



## donwilwol

lrt me know if you find any new ones, I'll add them here


----------



## WayneC

Here is a video…

http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=AQ-1153&Category_Code=N


----------



## DaddyZ

Anyone Else seem to be addicted to scrolls ??? I just seem to get them when I see them !!


----------



## WayneC

Daddy Z. Yes with Fret and Jewelers saws as well…


----------



## Brit

*DaddyZ* - Errrr No.


----------



## donwilwol

I have a few, but manage to pass them by now. Its odd how this infliction transforms.


----------



## Dennisgrosen

*NO !*









)
Dennis


----------



## Bertha

It hasn't got me yet. I've got a couple big box ones and that's it. I don't even own a scroll saw (a powered one, that is). The scroll stuff just doesn't appeal to me whatsoever. It's weird. When I've got a 1 inch blade on my band saw, I often wish I had a little scroll saw to make some cuts


----------



## WayneC

Here is one of my jeweler's saws with a coping saw….


----------



## DaddyZ

Wayne - Very Cool, I haven't run across any jewelers saws yet. 
Dennis - Now that is cool !!!!!

I don't do any scrolling I just think the saws are Nice.


----------



## Dennisgrosen

I hear there is people who use them when cutting Dovetails 
so you can always claim you most have a new saw ….. ;-D


----------



## dbray45

I have coping and jeweler's saws, cutting dovetails with them is not an easy task. The darn things keep going in different directions.


----------



## Bertha

^I was thinking the same thing, David. That would be challenging. I use a Dozuki, sometimes a bow, but if I was looking elsewhere, I'd go to the bandsaw with a thick rigid blade.


----------



## TopamaxSurvivor

A good dovetail saw will track in it's own kerf. I think using them on dovetails is for clearing the bottom before paring with a chisel rather than chopping all the waste.


----------



## RGtools

That's what I do. Really saves time as long as you don't nick you baseline or score the back side of a pin. Guilty and more guilty.


----------



## DaddyZ

Old piece of steel, Gonna try Electrolysis !!!!








In The Bath, Couldn't Find all one kind of steel for the posts 








When it came out the next Morning








See what I found !!!!








And some of the original Engraving - A #4








And I had to make a handle, Oak & Walnut








Now she looks Pretty !!!!


----------



## Dennisgrosen

god job on that saw 

Dennis


----------



## Bertha

Nice job! Mine's out of the electro tank and scrubbed well. The handle was gone, gone, gone but I was desperate to save it (just to see if I could). It was in tatters and held together with a long u-bolt. I soaked it in BLO in the sun and put it back together using about a bottle of CA. I woodfilled the u-bold holes with some dowels and sanded it down a bit. I expect to have it up and running to share here in a week or so.


----------



## Brit

More saws for the restoration pile. They are winging their way to me right now.

*22" S&J 10TPI panel saw with non-break handle.*









*Early 20" Disston D8 13TPI panel saw.*









*S&J Leap-Frog 12" tenon saw ???TPI*









*A couple of drawknives. An 11" straight Robert Sorby*









*and a 6 1/2" Rubino Netro offset concave*


----------



## WayneC

Good looking haul Andy. I'm working on adding some drawkinves to my tool kit.


----------



## Bertha

Those drawknives are awesome. Has anyone ever turned new knobs for them?


----------



## Dennisgrosen

Bertha you just click here part 3 and 4 
and if you are interressteded part 1 and 2 ain´t bad either …. 

http://lumberjocks.com/mafe/blog/25493

Dennis


----------



## donwilwol

Andy, they don't look like they need much rehabing. I can't find a back saw with a brass back. You got some nice additions there.


----------



## Brit

Al, they are the original knobs on both of them.


----------



## Brit

Don, I always try to pick things that don't need too much rehabing. Working away from home all week doesn't allow me much time to restore tools, so the less I have to do the better. At the moment though, I seem to be adding to the pile faster than I can do the work. 

Brass backed backsaws were more popular in the UK than the US, although historically a lot of companies in the UK also offered a steel backed option. Once I get done with the brace blog, I intend to post a blog about a couple of backsaws. I'm not going to bore people with the restoration process, but I did some detective work around the history of the saws and their makers which proved quite enlightening. One of the things I uncovered was information on the incredible consumer choice that was available in the latter part of the 19th century and early 20th century when ordering a backsaw. Look out for it.


----------



## Bertha

Subscribed to that thread in advance of publishing, Andy. I'm pre-ordering your thread


----------



## donwilwol

Andy, I feel your pain Working away from home all week. This 6 month contract I pulled which allows a LOT of home time is wonder full. The next project is going to be tough for me.

I'm with Al. Bore me to death. Every time I read someone else "How To" I pick up little tips for different situations. I still am looking back over your brace blogs. Sign me up.


----------



## Brit

Thanks for the support guys, its nice to be appreciated.

Don, prior to June this year, I spent the last 3 years working from home. I love Denmark and the client is great, but I just hate the travel back and forth 8 hours each way at the beginning and end of each week. Because I do it every week, the 2 hour car journey, the flight, the train journey and the taxi journey have become second nature. However I don't know if is my age or what, but I find I get really frustrated with people who prevent my journey from going like clockwork. They should have a separate queue at the airport security for people who actually know what they are doing, who have removed their coat, emptied their pockets, taken off their belt and removed their laptop from their bag. They should have separate planes for people who just get on, put their bag in the overhead locker, sit down and fasten their seatbelt. How har is it to find a seat that is designated by a number and a letter? Why do so many people have so much trouble? I just don't get it.

The other week on my flight back, there was a woman who was walking up and down the aisle. She sat down, then she moved, then she moved again and she was holding everyone else up. In the end, I told her to "Sit the f??k down." It just came out. Maybe I'm having a mid-life crisis.


----------



## Bertha

I spit out a chunk of my bagel on that last paragraph. I've done the same thing many times. Nothing gets me more aggravated than flying. I'm not scared in the least of flying and I don't terribly mind traveling. But I hate airports and the people that inhabit them.

I had a similar melt-down after a very long few days in Albuquerque. I had made it home from work after a 2 hour traffic jam (that should have taken 15 minutes) and arrived at my hotel with gifts in tow (it was near some holiday, to make matters worse). As I was struggling to enter my room, some passing lady remarked, "someone's been shopping!" It just caught me at a bad time and I replied, "why don't you mind your f***g business".

I was shocked and appalled at myself but it is what it is. There's only so much a man can take in a day.


----------



## donwilwol

Andy, we could spend hours and go through a bunch of beer with this conversation. I gave up traveling several years ago after this xmas eave at the denver airport indecent. http://atthedatacenter.com/travel.htm but I missed the consulting work. Working for MS is a little better, I'm usually home thursday night instead of friday. Also since there is a lot of work here in the North East region of the US, I can drive 3-4 hours and forgo the whole flying experience. it amazes me sometimes what we do to pay the bills.

Isn't it amazing how the concept of a metal detector escapes people.


----------



## Brit

Al, Don - Thanks for laughs and I thought it was just me


----------



## Bertha

Don, I'll drive too. Arrive 1.5 hours before flight, 1 hour layover, another hour or so to get bags/rent car. That's 3.5 hours invested both directions. I can get pretty far in 7 hours of driving, I'll have all my stuff when I get there, I'll have a vehicle, and some of my sanity.


----------



## donwilwol

and the schedule to leave for home is when your done, not when your flight is "suppose" to leave.


----------



## dbray45

As a rule, I will not fly - for many reasons, most of them the BS level that is thrown your way.


----------



## TopamaxSurvivor

I can't think of a reasonable reason to fly less than 500 miles, faster to drive.


----------



## Bertha

^some would argue safer to fly. Some don't understand that my head is likely to explode from stress in the airport.


----------



## donwilwol

I flew back from Redmond a few weeks ago. My layover in JFK was delayed because they couldn't find the pilot. Bad enough they couldn't find the pilot, they broadcasted it over the load speaker that they couldn't find the pilot.

A few weeks before that, flying back from Redmond, my layover in NJ was delayed because they *forgot* to fill out the paperwork. Again, they just broadcasted it over the load speaker.


----------



## need2boat

Does anyone have experience with a Foley retoother. There is one locally for sale along with a automatic filer and chain saw sharpener. I spoke with the seller and it was his grandfathers and hasn't been in use but it's complete. I've read enough about it to know make sure the retoother has the tooth bars and carrier along with the filer. My hope is to unload the filer and chainsaw sharpener and just keep the retoother to play around with.










Joe


----------



## Arminius

Joe,

I think you would find the filer fairly useful. Foley retoothers are really good, I have been looking around for one locally on and off for a couple of years. If you get one, you might find yourself with a few friends.

Check this out -


----------



## need2boat

Arminius,

The guy who posted that vid is a member of this group and I email him to ask a few questions.

For me it's more about the space then it is learning or setting up the filer. It doesn't look to big but I can't see making the room. I guess we'll see how it goes. I know the carriers command a good price on ebay since most get throw out when the units got packed up to be sold at the auction.

I've talked with 3 different people who are selling set-ups and all 3 hand never used the equipment and were selling for a father or grandfather.

JFF


----------



## BillWhite

AhHAH!
An addiction in the offing for sure.
Don't have a many as you guys, but the few I have are treasures.
Bill


----------



## Bertha

Well Don, I saved my handle for what it's worth. I'm determined with this one.


----------



## donwilwol

Nice…..It looks like you had all the original parts. She should come out real pretty!


----------



## Bertha

Don, it was in about 20 pieces. I was determined to save it. The hardware is being evaporusted and the blade is cleaned up, sharpened, but not set. This is my first saw restore. I wish I had taken more before shots. It was in rough shape.


----------



## WayneC

This is pretty cool…

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Unusual-handmade-19th-C-all-wood-coping-saw-/190576356302?pt=Folk_Art&hash=item2c5f3c6bce


----------



## bluekingfisher

Having just read this thread I have now changed my mind about dumping the old panel rip and bck saws which belonged to my grandfather. My dad gave me them some years ago because they were gathering dust in his garage and he wanted them out of the way.

I've probably had them about twenty years now, gathering dust just like they have always done since the passing of my grandfather 40+ years ago. My Granpa wasn't a wwodworker so there is little in the way of nostalgia although he must have used them at some point. I don't think I will ever use them but it may be fun to breathe new life into some old tools.


----------



## donwilwol

well blueking, once you start….............................
I'd love to see some pictures of those beauties. You nover know, you could have something very valuable there. Either monetary or otherwise.

Wayne, that was a pretty cool coping saw.

Al, is that handle done yet. You've had all night!!


----------



## dbray45

blue - I keep a small handsaw in the back of my car at all times in case I have to cut something. A sharp handsaw can be a blessing. If they are sharpened correctly, they will cut wood like butter, straight and smooth.


----------



## DaddyZ

Well guys, I got me a bandsaw !!!!!! It's only a Central Machinery 32206 but it's a Bandsaw !!!!!

Original Owner had a metal Blade on it cutting Wood. now to clean it up, only 165.00 w/ (4) New packaged Blades (2) metal & (2) 3 tpi


----------



## WayneC

Congrats Daddy. I think the bandsaw would be one of the last power tools to leave my shop if I had to give up my tools…..

I purchased a pair of Turning Saws (being sensitive to Mads and not calling them bow saws) the other day on ebay. Waiting for them to get here… 8" and 12" saws.


----------



## donwilwol

DaddyZ, I have a central machine I've had for a long time. You should be happy.

Wayne, nice looking "turning" saws.

I've been avoiding ebay. Trying to catch up…......


----------



## WayneC

Don, you appear to live in a target rich environment when it comes to old tools. If I had as many available locally as you do, I do not think I would have a need to view ebay at all.

You seem to live in a really good area.


----------



## donwilwol

unless you want to make a living…..thus the traveling job. I guess you just can't have it all, I'll take the tools.


----------



## Brit

Nice saws Wayne. I just missed out on this one. I kept the picture and put it in my 'Inspiration' folder on my laptop. If I don't find anything better, I'll make one at some point.


----------



## Dennisgrosen

its a frame saw Wayne …... LOL

Dennis


----------



## TopamaxSurvivor

*David* He must have done a little WW at some time or he wouldn't have had the saws ;-)

I have some old saws my mother wants to paint. Most have varying degrees of light rust on them. I am thinking a wire brush is the best way to get them down to metal for priming. Any other better idea?


----------



## dbray45

Clean them up, put car wax on them, use them?


----------



## need2boat

Brit and Wayne C.

I've looked at a few old turning or frame saws and just wondering where do you get blades. I haven't looked at hundreds rather 4 or 5 at a local collectors I meet up with but they all look to me to have different to size and ways to hold the blade.

Do you look for one type of blade system when you buy them?

I've been considering buying one from tools for working wood just so I can get a supply of blades easily.

Joe


----------



## Bertha

Topa, any of the popular rust removals followed by a brass brush chucked into your drill will get the metal ready. Maybe a quick hit of acetone before the primer coat. If you're SURE it's going to be painted, you could always just hit is with coarse grit in your pad sander, cleanup with acetone; give the paint a little something to bite on.

Normally, I'd be against painting a saw but it's another nice way to honor a saw if it'll be admired instead of sitting in a bin somewhere.


----------



## dbray45

Highland woodworking in Atlanta, GA has blades. If you are interested in learning to sharpen blades, if you cannot already, take an old hacksaw blade and make a shorter version. Its not too difficult.


----------



## donwilwol

Joe, i made mine out of an old bandsaw blade.


----------



## Bertha

^the one I BOUGHT was clearly made from a massive bandsaw blade. I know they sell the just the hardware to mount the blade using simple pins. That might be a nice way to go.


----------



## donwilwol

i made my own. simple pin is a cut down 6p finish nail


----------



## dbray45

I tried using bandsaw blades, they were too thin and were a pain to work with. To much twisting. Went to an old hacksaw (one with teeth), cut new teeth wit a file, worked great.


----------



## donwilwol

I finally found a Millers Falls Miter Saw. I think the model is 74c, but the number is hard to read.



















The saw is ok, but I'm definitely going have to go "Mads" on the handle. Just a little cleanup and a base to clamp it on the bench and it should be good to go.


----------



## Bertha

Wow! Nice find. The handle looks in pretty good shape. Doesn't fit you?


----------



## donwilwol

Just to square and plain. Needs to be rounded and dressed up some.


----------



## donwilwol

although on further review, it looks like its original. Maybe its best to just clean it up and leave it original.


----------



## WayneC

If you want to keep original for resale. Put the original handles aside and make a replacement set.


----------



## Dennisgrosen

nice mitersaw pair 
as wayne say pack the handle down for later and make a new

Dennis


----------



## donwilwol

well, I remember walking to the shop one evening after work thinking, "maybe I'll clean up the miter saw", but I don't know when it became a complete restore. I know I never intended it to be that way.



















Saw handle is sanded. It doesn't look to bad now that the edges have been softened. The blades in the evapo-rust, but I won't get back out there until next week now.


----------



## DaddyZ

I have a couple similar miter saw boxes but no saws that fit !!!

Nice restore !!!


----------



## Bertha

that thing is friggin awesome!


----------



## donwilwol

how do you like I even managed to peel the sticker off and glue it back on after painting. I don't think this thing was ever used. I had to hone the tool marks out off the shafts to get them to work. I'm glad I waited MF. I mean I'm glad I waited for the MF. (*M*illers *F*alls of course)


----------



## Bertha

Not as wonderful as your spam, Tong. What kind of spam sharpener do you use?


----------



## Bertha

I finished my saw Don.
Started like this. Not worth fixing but I just made it a mission.


















Saved from the heap


----------



## racerglen

Very nice Al..and very impresive getting that handle from pieces to a one chunker !

Don..meant to ask..HOW did you get the decal off and back again ? I've managed to sneak around that on some things by a carefull masking, but off and then back on and still looking good !


----------



## donwilwol

Al, nice job. That handle doesn't even look fixed.

Glen, I got lucky. It just peeled off. Never seen anything like it.


----------



## Brit

Nice job on the saw Al. Did you manage to sharpen it Ok?

Nice socks too!!! )


----------



## Dennisgrosen

good job on the saw 

Dennis


----------



## donwilwol

I need a closer look at that handle. It looks to good to be fixed. Really nice. I disagree, it was definitely worth fixing.


----------



## Bertha

Lol, Andy, they do look like socks Unlike certain terribly unsafe woodworkers, those are actually RedWings that have been punished for close to 15 years. I did sharpen the saw; just not successfully. It's more like a giant rasp now lol. I set up a test board and started into it; the board broke along the grain about 3/4 inches into the cut. Back to the drawing board.


----------



## need2boat

Al,

I'd like to setup a electrolytic tank for some longer folly jigs I got with my filer and retoother. would you give a rundown of your set up? The jigs are 44" long and they fit good in a plastic under the bed bin. I've got the soap, steel stock and battery charger. It looks like you wired up a few things just wondering what you've found works best.

Joe


----------



## donwilwol

Joe, here is Al's blog on electrolysis


----------



## need2boat

Don,

I was up in Watkins Glen last week. Which I think isn't crazy far from you and found the same Millers Falls miter box. 74C. The blade is around 28" I don't think I'll paint mine but I did find when I washed it down to clean some of the rust paint came with it. That's the first time I've had that happen. It doesn't look like the org paint used was very good. I plan to make a wooden base and insert for the tray so most of it will be covered.

The blade on mine isn't too bad but this will be my first time sharpening a saw with fine cross cut teeth. I'm kind of sweating it. ;-)

Joe


----------



## donwilwol

That's about a 4 hour drive for me. I didn't plan to repaint mine either, it just sort of happened. How are the cylinders. It took a lot of force to make the saw go up and down. Cleaning wasn't enough. I had 60 grit paper honing the things to get them to work decent, so either who ever had it never really used it, or at some point they were replaced and never fitted. It sound like you have the saw one size up from mine.

I wouldn't sweat the sharpening. My only problem is keeping the angles right. I plan to make a jig with the angles on it just so I have a constant reference. I like doing it by hand, and as long I have a reference, I seem to do ok.


----------



## need2boat

Thanks Don,

Just read it. since it looks like you and few others on the list have done it. How does it effect any paint that might be on the tool?

Joe


----------



## need2boat

4 hours, I was way off. The over all condition of mine was good. It doesn't look like it had a ton of use and the guy I bought it from was a woodworker who got it to use and never did. The guides and everything needed some lube and cleaning but they were in good shape. I had a few spots of rust but didn't dip the entire thing rather just spayed the evap rust locally. 
I was looking for a 26" blade but the condition and price were right so I can deal with the 28"

Joe


----------



## donwilwol

it depends. If the paint is solid and there is no rust under it, it won't hurt it. But if there is any rust under it, it will loosen it. You will typically still need to wire brush after, just it is extremely easy to do. My experience is if there is rust showing, there is rust under some of the paint.


----------



## need2boat

So when do you use it over the evap rust? when your dealing with something really large?

Joe


----------



## donwilwol

either when my evaporust has gone bad and I can't get to get more(its hard to find locally here), or I have a lot of really rusty stuff. And some times i just like playing with the battery charger, sometimes I don't.

Its more of a "what kind of mood am I in" rather than a technical decision. Also My battery charger is brand new, and its a little finicky for electrolysis. I hope to find an older one in a flea market or tag sale one of these days. The new one is a little to "helpful". It want s to auto sense the type of battery, etc. I can make it work, just takes some fiddling.


----------



## TopamaxSurvivor

You could use a 24 v transformer and a bridge rectifer.


----------



## Bertha

Hey Need2Boat, it looks like you're well on your way. I tend to use the electrolysis just because I set up for it and I don't have to buy anything. I use evaporust for little bits like screws and such. Several guys here have made chargers using old computer power supplies but I just use a cheap battery charger. There are probably better methods than mine here but mine works at least. I always his my stuff with a brash brush chucked into a corded drill when it gets out of the tank. Whether or not I'll use a polishing pad depends upon my mood. Good luck!


----------



## need2boat

Thanks for all the good info. It sounds these jigs might be the perfect thing to start with. It would use way to much evap rust stuff to cover them and I already have the battery charger. I should have the time this weekend to get it going.

Joe


----------



## need2boat

I want to put a blog posting about this and the other Foley machines I picked up but time being what it is I figured I'd just post a quick vid I shot over the weekend. I went to look at a collection of older foley tools just wanting the retoother but he was really looking to get rid of everything so he basically gave it away.

The retoother is the simplest of the tools so I started with that one. This would have been sold as a hand crank he had a few extra motors and other then needing new cord and switch they were fine.









I cleaned it up a bit since it had been sitting for about 30 years.

The vid of it running

Keep in mind this is a trash saw I got in a collection of saws that had good handles but the saws were really, really rusty. Thankfully I kept them as you'll see the toother needed some adjustment.

Joe


----------



## Brit

That is really sweet Joe. How do you adjust it for different TPIs? Do you have to have multiple dies or is it all done with one die that you can set accordingly?


----------



## donwilwol

Joe, I've had a complete foley setup. Back before I did anything with hand saws I scavenged the motors and broke it down for storage. Its even got the automatic set machine. I know your only a couple hours from me, so if your ever up this way and want it, let me know. I'd give it to you if you think you'll use it. I hate to throw it away, but I'll never use it.


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## need2boat

Andy.

The carrier that hold the blade is used on all the Foley fillers, retoother, and auto set. This way you don't have to readjust it and you can walk from machine to machine. The carrier comes in 3 style straight, curved, and one for back saws. All three styles have holes in them to except a 1/4 wide track of grooves. If you look at the vid you will see paw in the retoother grab the track and pull it forward. Each track does 2 or 3 teeth configuration. like 13-7-4, or 9-5, or 11-6. If the paw grabs every tooth in the track you get the first number. If you set to to grab every second tooth you get the second number and if you set to grab every 4th you get the 3rd number.

I have a total of 5 bars that cover most of the common teeth but they did sell others. From what I've read online the carrier and bars are often what goes missing.

If you watch close you will see I messed up and properly adjusting the paw and it skips from 5 tpi which is every other tooth back to 9 which is every tooth. In reading I guess you need to leave a little play for the vibration and I didn't.

Don,

I'd be interested in that, I get up to North Adams a few times a year and travel up 87. I'm not sure it will be any time soon but I'll shoot you pmail before hand.

Joe


----------



## Brit

Thanks for the explanation Joe. That's a cool machine.


----------



## RGtools

I might have drooled a bit as I watched that video. So cool.


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## donwilwol

Joe, here is what I've got.


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## Bertha

^whoa! I'd be very interested, but I can only imagine the shipping price!


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## racerglen

Al, you could use it to tooth your mower blade !
Then you wouldn't have to worry about stumps ;-}


----------



## donwilwol

some motors and misc other parts have been scavenged. One of the stands now holds my grinder. And yes its very heavy. I watched several on ebay and none sold so I didn't bother. I may be able to parts it out, and may if nobody takes it away. I believe the set machine is still intact, it has a very small motor so I didn't have a need "yet". Even that probably weights a 100 pounds. Its in a job box outside my shop. I planned to move it inside once I got the floor upstairs in the shop. I'm hoping one of you guys picks it up first.


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## dbray45

I would if I could - in a minute. I am too far away - Maryland


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## need2boat

Hey Don,

I have a saw set that came with mine but I'd really be more interested in the other bits like the carriers. Two of mine are kind of bent. Did you have a chain saw sharpener or filer? The parts on the right hand side of the picture look like a metal break?

Your about 3 hours from me and I normally get up your way when going kayaking on the deerfield or hiking in the dacks. The releases are done for the year but I do a winter trip to the dacks in December.

Joe


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## Bertha

I thought that break in the picture was a saw vise of sorts. I know nothing of this machine, other than I want one


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## donwilwol

I'm about an hour north of Adams, but if its a week day I'll still be working in Pittsfield. I have a Foley automatic power setter model 352 and a saw filer model 387. The part you see is part of the 387. I think it may be the attachment for the hand saws. Why I didn't put it to use? The parts are very expensive, setup seemed forever, and I don't sharpen that much. The blade wouldn't do carbide and a blade that would was really expensive. If you planned to do some sharpening for hire, it might pay, and I'm sure once you got used to setup it would be quicker. Plus I just didn't have room in my shop.


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## need2boat

Foley made saw filers, sets and retoothers for so many years and different saws it's it's hard to keep track of everything. They also made sharperners for both table and hand saws and chain saws. I know mine will do both round and hand saws. The round ones have a different setter. Like most of these types of things. I just bought out someone who had it laying around from his father. I have some manuals but not everything. I'm just interested in the filer and retoother.

Al how far are you from Morgantown area. I drive out that way quite a bit in the spring-fall to go kayaking. I even do a few trips out to the Gauly but more often around Kingwood and Bruceton Mills, Cheat and Yough rivers.










here's what everything looked in the back of my vw vanagon. He had two different model filers that look to do the same thing, saw set, and toother

Joe


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## donwilwol

google "Hoosick Falls, NY."


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## RGtools

I'm just stuck here in the jungles of Oregon.


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## need2boat

I'm not sure I'd call that stuck. . . ! ;-)

I would think in an area like that there must of been a lot of saw sharpening going on but I think those big tree saws must use a different filer.

Joe


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## RGtools

Chain saws. What sucks is none of the mills around here want to sell to me. They all want to export their wood to California where they can get a better price.


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## racerglen

Tough.. ;-)
At least you can get some back before it's a cheap dresser … :-(

They want to export ours to China !


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## need2boat

Wood is like any commodity. it's sold to the highest bidder. . .

As I learn more about woodworking; the process and way I buy wood has changed as well. I started by buying from home stores, then I found a really nice local wood mill and high end dealer that I loved to visit. Then learned more and started buying rough cut to save money and get some thicker boards. Bought way to much of things I shouldn't have because the price was right. Now I'm finally getting to a point where I know what worth keeping around, how to inspect plus whats worth buying finished and when to hit the home stores. I've found to make buying rough cut work I need to buy at least 100 or more.

Case and point. earlier this year I bought about 400+ bf of cheery. It was local to me and I paid about 1.00 a foot. it had been stored well but really cupped wile sitting plus this was milled 25 or 30 years ago and most thickness are 4/4 or less. The plus was the price , it's old growth and clean, very little sap. its from the same tree.

Fast forward the learning curve and what I'm finding is it's great wood but I have to put a good deal of time into getting it flat , twice as much as other rough cut I've bought due to the cupping. I'm also coming out shy of 3/4 on 80% of it. For me storage is also a real issue so it's not really working into the best deal.

Joe


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## dbray45

If it is badly cupped, rip the board in 1/2 or 1/3. This will keep the thicknes. You will have to joint and glue but the loss is minimized. You can easily loose 50% trying to mill cupped wider boards.

I have also restacked the wood with stickers and with a good dehumidifier, finished the drying and they flatten back out.


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## Bertha

I don't have the storage space for wood. I could stack it in my carport but the clutter gets to me. I know wood isn't clutter, but you know what I'm talking about. I built a large lumber rack on the back of my shop, under the eaves, but the wood still stays pretty damp. I could probably build a little stickering area UNDER my house in the crawlspace (4 feet high or so). Does this sound feasible?


----------



## Arminius

Just out of curiosity, does anyone have a saw anvil? I want to start taking out some of the kinks in some of the restoration projects I have, but I am not sure what a saw anvil actually looks like.


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## WayneC

Good question Arminius. I would like to know the answer to that as well.

Al. Why not build a lumber barn and kiln? Something to match the house. Solve the lumber shortage issue.


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## Bertha

Yeah Wayne, I'll pitch that to the better half when I get home. I should probably go with the ATV track, gun range, and trampoline while I'm at it


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## WayneC

One side of the shed for lumber the other for artifacts….. Work with me here.


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## donwilwol

Al, do an ROI on the saving when buying green lumber over home depot. I'll bet you can make it return a profit in say 50 years or less. 

You may want to fudge the numbers a little, you know, like the politicians do (opps, off topic again),


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## racerglen

Something I found..on line..

. 
.February 17, 2011 • 5:08 am 
.How to straighten your bent handsaw.
i

Vern Burke, SwiftWater Edge Tool Works
Biddeford, ME

The unthinkable has now happened. You got a little to aggressive with the down force on your handsaw, dug the teeth in, and then pushed. Now your formerly straight handsaw looks like the ocean waves or a banana. In this post, I'm going to list some dos and don'ts about straightening a bent handsaw.

1. Get a real anvil. Yes, you could probably get by with makeshift using a piece of I-beam or a steel plate but trying to do this without the right gear is going to be frustrating at best. Don't even think about trying this on the little "anvil" on the back of your bench vise!

2. Forget perfectly flat anvils. There's a common wisdom about that anvils need to be perfectly flat to be useful. The reality is, a bent saw can never be straightened on a flat surface. Since saw steel is generally pretty springy, it has to actually be bent past straight so it will spring back to straight. Best thing for straightening a hand saw is a fairly heavy vintage anvil with a well worn face and a few depressions (aka negatives).

3. Take the handle off the saw. Don't even think about trying this with the handle on.

4. Don't ever strike the saw blade directly. Place another tool against the saw blade and strike that tool with the hammer. Strike the blade directly with the hammer and you'll leave tool marks on the blade, among other things.

5. Don't over hammer the blade. A bent saw blade will never go back to factory perfect. The object here is to get the blade straight enough to cut a straight line with minimal correction.

Over hammer a blade and you're likely to thin out the metal, especially if you're violating #4 and hammering directly on the blade. This is guaranteed to ruin the blade.

These are just the high points to watch for on straightening bent handsaw blades. Most bent handsaws can be put back in shape with care and practice. Or you can bring them by and let us bring them back to life for you .


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## need2boat

David, 
Thanks for the advice. I'm not having a problem getting the stock square rather was just pointing out, what seems like a deal at first to the untrained is not always so. it's just time money thing. I don't have a great deal of free time at this point in life and with this batch of wood I'm spending it at the 15" planer more then I thought I would.

For the most part I'm finding if I use a sled and shims is the fastest way to get it flat.

Al, I store most of mine in a simple tarp garage I already had. They don't look great but if you buy one of the better made ones they last long and cost under 200.00. I also built some racks that fit under the deck. The tarp garage in the summer makes a great kilm as it gets quite hot in the summer.

If you can get to get to the area in the craw space and you make sure the wood is free of bugs. I'd say give it a go. One thing that I've found hard with dealing with limited space is you unstack and restack a LOT! getting to the wood.

JFF


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## dbray45

Put it in the attic over the shop. With the heat of the attic, it will dry pretty quickly especially over the summer. Works like a kiln you could even add a little heat and insulate the floor of the attic and it would be a drying kiln.

If the box stores charged by the bf, most of their lumber would be in the $10-12 bf. All of the lumber I get, even kiln dried, is somewhere around 8%, the 2×4 at HD are 14% (if I am lucky). When I use it, I have it around 2-3% or less. It is far more stable.


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## Bertha

LOL Don, my better half made me compute a ROI on a recent handplane purchase. Unfortunately for her, I computed it based on planer blades and ROS paper not used over the life of the tool, which I estimated at 100 years. Score one for me.

The attic over my shop could be quite useful and it's now well-ventilated, thanks to the instruction I received here. However there's no good way into it. If I cut a "hay loft" hole above the door, I could slide long boards in, I suppose. However, my shop is also log, so I'm not sure about cutting big holes in it. I'm not even sure how I WOULD cut those holes. Do they make a 12" recip blade?


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## dbray45

Put in a folding ladder on the inside so access is from the shop.


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## WayneC

I'm still in a new building camp. You could put a carport like attachment on it for your bandsaw mill and area for doing green wood working such as hand carving wooden bowels with a hatchet.


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## Bertha

I actually have room on one side of my shop where I could build on a little.

See where the SUV is parked here, I've got a little gravel lot.









It would cut into the parking where I keep my truck but it would probably still fit. I could always gravel over the grass a bit. The truck is parked directly in front of the shop (two windows and star, now gone). That's the house visible behind the shop. It's a weird picture but you get the idea of the space.


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## dbray45

Al, if you were to build a 5' high, 9 1/2' long, 5' deep cabinet, put 3"-4" insulating foam on the inside (all sides) w/ sealed cement floor, and have the top and front hinged to open with an EBAC (http://www.ebacusa.com/lumberproducts.htm) dryer on one end. You will have a worthwhile kiln for doing 8' lengths.

I know someone that did this and once the lumber was air dried to 18%, this took it down to 4% in a week. Less time would check or warp the wood. 3 weeks for 12-16/4 with a week to rest in the middle.


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## Bertha

David, that's actually a thought. If I built a small silo behind the shop (which would be in the trees on the far right of the picture above), I could equip it with an ebac (although those big ones looke expensive). I could just put a few posts in the ground, kind of like an elevated lean-to. My electric comes in at the back-and-right position of the shop as it is in the photo. I could hop in there easily to run a dehumidifier. It's definitely something to consider.


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## dbray45

You could use a dehumidifier and a small ceramic space heater but the process takes 2-3 weeks longer for the 300-400bf - get a service contract on the dehumidifier. The idea is to keep track of the amount of water you get out of the wood. This can be used to calcutate the dryness before using a meter. Upgrade to Ebac later.

You can also use a small electric furnace air handler. You want to heat the wood over 4 days to about 120-130 and cool down for 3 days. This kills any bugs in the wood.

EBAC's master control is the key


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## Bertha

This sounds too rich for my blood right now. I have to OWN lumber before I can worry about stickering it. If I somehow manage to convince SWMBO to let me have the Woodmizer, then I may have a foot in the door. What would you guess a decent ebac to cost for this application, one with a set it and forget it type of turnkey system?


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## dbray45

They all have to be watched to a point. Water has to be measured and dumped daily, different woods and thicknesses require different timings, there really is a science to it. I can tell you a little from what I have been told and read.

All of those logs that are piled up should be organized and set so they don't rot. They can get for a couple of years before tending to if they are stacked correctly and covered. See if you can rent a woodmizer for a week and clear it all up.


----------



## Brit

*Arminius*, You wanted to know what a Sawmaker's anvil looked like. If you have a bent saw plate that you'd like to straighten, this is not necessarily the what you need. Like everything else, there are a number of different approaches to straightening a bent saw and there are some links below that might be of interest. I cannot say whether this information is good or bad, but netherless, it is interesting.

The important thing to note I believe, is that there is a difference between straightening a bent saw plate and adjusting the temper of a saw plate. They are different processes.

This is what a sawmaker's anvil looks like.

Here is a link to a blog entry written by Stephen Shepherd in his Full Chisel blog.
Note: The blog comments are worth reading as well as the article.

Related threads from Sawmill Creek forum:
How to Straighten Bent Saw Blades
Straightening Bent Hand Saw Blades


----------



## donwilwol

Andy, I hope yopu don't mind, I stole your info and placed it here

I haven't tried to straighten a saw yet. Looks like a challenging endeavor.


----------



## Brit

No problem Don.

I think it is a challenge, but mostly because the information out there can be a bit confusing and because the right approach can vary depending on the type of saw, i.e. backsaw or handsaw. Also the steel type, hardness and temper can make a difference. I bought a Disston D8 that had a slight bend to it and I just gripped the blade close to the bend with both hands with my thumbs on the convex side of the saw plate (much like you would hold a hand scraper to bend it) and overbent it the other way and after a couple of goes it was dead straight again. However, I know that won't work all the time.


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## dbray45

I bought an old doveteil saw that was dull and the blade looked worse than the N Atlantic during a NorEastor. I took the time to joint it almost flat, sharpen it, joint it again down the teeth about half way and sharpen it - basically retoothing it twice. The result was a flat and sharp saw. Works nice.

Unless there is a crease in the blade, I wouldn't use the anvil.


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## need2boat

Thought I would throw this out there for Don and others who own a Millers Falls Langdon Acme Mitre Box.

this is a link to the manual

Looking at it if you have a 74c like I do it would have come with a 28×5 saw which mine did but I find WAY big for the work I do with it. What I was trying to figure out is did they make a different box for each size saw?

Joe


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## donwilwol

somewhere back a few pages, (or maybe another thread, maybe my blog) I posted the same manual you did, plus this the second one gives the miter box and appropriate saw that came with it Joe.


----------



## need2boat

That's interesting because the second one you linked to does no list the small 72 and 73. I'm guessing the 74C with 28" blade is the most common as that's 90% of what I see for sale.

Joe


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## Arminius

Andy,

Thanks for that. I will take a look at those discussions. I have been reviewing Bob Smalser's explanation at WK Fine Tools and I think I get it, but was very unclear on how much of the saw would be on the anvil to do it - the only saw anvils I have been able to find are enormous ones made for 2-man crosscut saws. I have an accumulation of back and hand saws with varying degrees of kinking that I want to start rehabilitating.


----------



## dbray45

Hey, I really appreciate the links. The Craftsman miter box that I have is actually the 75 or 76 Langdon Acme Mitre Box. It is missing a couple parts but I may be able to make them.

Thank you.


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## Bertha

Man, I need to make an excel file with all these hyperlinks. This stuff is gold.


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## dbray45

I print them and put them in my manuals binders


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## Dennisgrosen

good idea David 

man that wuold be a hole shelfwall for me trying to remember what I have read …............ LOL

Dennis


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## dbray45

Dennis - It does take a lot of space, I use a 3" binder for power tools, 2" binder for appliances, a 3" binder for hand tools (soon to be two binders). When I need something or a setting that is out of the norm, I have it. I use the plastic sleeves that are open at the top so I can take the manuals out, and put them back.


----------



## need2boat

Had time over the weekend to read some of the blogs Brit posted. The first one from the Full Chisel blog I found a little hard to follow but the comments were really interesting. Mike who made many of them is the owner of Wenzloff and sons. I recently bought one of his saws and spent some time talking on the phone. Really helpful and the saw is really nice.

JFF


----------



## dbray45

I am need of about 15 or so saw handle screws and captive nuts, does anybody know where I can get these?


----------



## Brit

*dbray4*5 - Try Mike Wenzloff.


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## RGtools

Grammercy might be another good bet.


----------



## need2boat

It's really hard to match old styles of chicago screws screws it seems like all the saw makers switched them A LOT. I bought about 7 rusty saws for cheap just to get the handles and screws. what I found is just about everyone is different.

If your looking for new screws you can try Mike or bad axe tool works also sells them

You could do some googling for Chicago Screw and also try

Joe


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## WayneC

I also see groups of saw screws on ebay. For example…

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Disston-Superior-Warranted-4-saw-medallions-and-16-screws-nickel-over-iron-/200661763500?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2eb85f85ac

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Saw-Medallions-Buttons-Screw-3m24-/200633421002?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2eb6af0cca


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## racerglen

And Lee Valley sells some as well….


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## dbray45

Thank you - thank you
I will look at all of these. I am missing some and I have an old toolbox saw that the nuts are pretty stripped. I'll keep the original ones but since I use the saw, this would be better.


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## Bertha

As a saw novice, I was shocked what a buffing pad and some green charging compound can do to an old brass nut. I took a mason jar and placed my brown fuzzy rusted hardware within; I sprayed PB blaster in there until they were under the liquid. I let them sit there for a day or so, then took them out & let them dry onto paper towels. I hit them with the charged buff and could see myself in the reflection in seconds. I'm usually not a fan of the extremely bright brass on a restore, but it sure was fun to see come out.


----------



## need2boat

what is charging compound. I don't do a lot off buffing of metal.

Joe


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## Bertha

I'm not metallurgist, so others can answer this better. I think it's chromic oxide or something similar; an abrasive compound that can be purchased in stick/bar form. You run your cloth/other buffing wheel and "charge" the wheel by applying a small amount of this grit on the surface (there is green, "rouge", etc. at differing grit composition). Then, you just buff the surface with this grit compound on the buffing pad. For a metal novice, it's like magic. I also use it on the leather buffing pad on my Tormek but it's a bit aggressive, so for general purpose honing, I usually use Autosol (which I'm guessing is a much finer grit product). Some of the master sharpeners here can probably give you a treatise on it but I know the "green" stick at Lowe's (near the band saw blades, biscuits, etc. in my store) will bring brass to a shine quickly. It's abrasive, by definition, so be careful!


----------



## donwilwol

buffing compound


----------



## RGtools

You beat me to it Don. Jewelers use a ton of it (and it's cheaper through an industrial jewelers catalogue)


----------



## donwilwol

true value, and most hardware stores sell it. My Home Depot doesn't. They sell everything you need to buff, except the compound…..crazy.


----------



## donwilwol

true value, and most hardware stores sell it. My Home Depot doesn't. They sell everything you need to buff, except the compound…..crazy.


----------



## need2boat

Had the chance this weekend to try 90% of the saws and other kit Lie-Nielsen makes at one of there Hand tool Events. This one was at Hearne Hardwoods in PA.

Really nice selection of woods it was my first time here. I enjoyed trying the progressive pitched saw as well as some of there larger saws. All of them were very nice. I own one of there dove tail saws so I didn't bother trying that one although it's changed a bit. Mine is second hand and about 3 years old.

I wasn't as impressed with the panel or tenon saws. They cut well but I didn't like the styling or feel of handles. A few months back I bought a tenon saw from Mike of Wenzloff and Sons and love looking at it as much as using it.

Joe


----------



## RGtools

Wenzloff's are gorgeous tools. I live in Oregon so I should visit at some point.


----------



## need2boat

yes if your in his area I would for sure stop by. Mike sounds like a good guy and the times I've talked with him has been really helpful.

Joe


----------



## donwilwol

For those watching, I've updated my reference site with http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/sawjig/index.html . Very interesting and I plan to try the jig in this site.


----------



## Dennisgrosen

thank´s for the links
but both gives the same page is that right 

Dennis


----------



## donwilwol

Sorry, it should have been this:
For those watching, I've updated my reference site with http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/sawjig/index.html. Very interesting and I plan to try the jig in this site.

Thanks Dennis!


----------



## Dennisgrosen

thanks Don had forgotten I did favorited your site …. lol

take care
Dennis


----------



## mochoa

Hey guys, what is your take on backsaws. I'm thinking of getting some for Christmas.

Would you go with new or vintage?

I've been looking at the veritas saws, I'd like to get two. Maybe a tennon and carcass saw. I like the dovetail saw too but I'm thinking of just getting only two, the discount for multiple saws is so nice though. Tempting to go for the set of 3.

I like vintage too though, I prefer how they look. Should I just hunt ebay for all three equivalent vintage saws?


----------



## Brit

It really depends on your budget Mauricio. If I lived in the US, I would go with Badaxe back saws all the way. A close second would be Aria. Personally, I don't like LN saws. The route I've gone is vintage, since there isn't anywhere I can get Badaxe saws without the postage, VAT and customs charges killing me.

In my little workshop, it will be the Winter of saws. I have about 10 different vintage back saws that are awaiting restoration now, plus a few handsaws. After that, it will be the Spring of handplanes, the Summer of hand drills and then the Autumn of any other miscellaneous tools I've collected over the last year.

The big adavantage of vintage in my opinion is that I can sharpen them to my liking and build up a set that should cope with most woods/tasks.


----------



## RGtools

Vintage is a good way to go. So is good new. Andy's recommendations on brands are pretty spot on although I would also ad Grammercy (their Sash saw looks like it could pretty much handle that tasks of the other three you mentioned). The Veritas have great reviews and are a bargain, the just don't look right to my eye.

If you have somewhere you can actually handle old saws you may be better off, some are just plain going to fit your hand better than others (for me old Disstons are perfect).


----------



## Bertha

BadAxe for me all the way. I'm not a big saw guy, so I can justify the expense of picking up a select few nice ones. I've got a handful of vintage Disstons but I haven't jumped on the sharpening thing full bore yet. I don't like the LN either but I'm not a Western saw guy in general, so that's an unfair critique. I've never picked up an Aria but they sure are gorgeous. I know a lot of people like the Veritas saws and the price is right. You asked this question in the right thread.


----------



## BrandonW

Yes, the Veritas saws are ugly, but for they are priced nicely for a good new saw. I have the Veritas dovetail saw and love it. Haven't compared it to other new saws, but I've only heard good things about their performance.


----------



## mochoa

Thanks for the input guys. I dont think the veritas saws are that ugly but not nearly as pretty as the classic distons. I'm not willing to pay the price of some of these premium saws though so I think I'm going to hunt ebay.


----------



## Brit

One thing to consider though Mauricio is whether you're prepared to get into sharpening and setting saws yourself. I say that because anything you buy off ebay will need some work to get the best out of it. By the time you have bought or built a saw vise, bought some saw files and one or more saw sets, a file for jointing, abrasives and finish for the saw plate and handle, you will probably be close to the cost of a bad axe back saw.

I'm not trying to put you off the ebay route, after all its the way I went. Just saying it is something to consider.


----------



## need2boat

I would second what Andy is saying. Plus I have yet to be as happy with my filing as I was with Mike Wenzloff.

Filing is something that takes practice I can tell you first hand its easy to screw up a good saw. plus once it's way out cutting new teeth unless your highly skilled is your best bet. If your going that route I'd start with a large tooth rip, file it and then move to smaller saws. This is just my experience, I'm sure some pick it up quicker but so far things just haven't clicked and I'm really struggling on smaller saws but I just give it a rest when I'm not happy.

Joe


----------



## mochoa

I hear you and I am no stranger to restoring old tools, planes mostly. I am willing to take the trade off of Work vs. Cost. I think thats what wood working is all about.

I've already gotten my feet wet on one saw, rip filed. 








Probably should be cross cut filed though, its about 9tpi.

So, I realize there is a learning curve with sharpening and I will need a magnifisying glass with light (I'm not old those teeth are just hard to see) a new file and saw set.

But I figure, your going to have to resharpen eventually so you might as well learn up front.


----------



## donwilwol

I've had decent luck sharpening. I'd say the hardest part is maintaining the proper angles. The next one I do I'm going to make a jig similar to this one but NOT attach the file to it. That way I have the angle references close at hand, but not the complexity of the file movement on the jig. The 2 or 3 I've done so far i've done free hand.

I AM old and I also need magnification. I haven't figured that part out yet except for glasses.

I've always tried to maintain my own tools and equipment, I just never had a saw worth sharpening until rencently (other than my chainsaw).


----------



## mochoa

DonW its not your age, above 9tpi, with a lot of light reflecting off of those little shinny freshly filed teeth, they are just hard to look at.
Have you just used reading glasses? Garrett Hack uses one of those lamps with the magnifying glass on it. I think Harbor Freight has a deal right now on the jewelers glasses, you know those funny square things with the light on it.

Andy, I think you would save a lot of money by taking a trip to the States and loading up on all the tools you want.


----------



## mochoa

Andy, you could fly straight to New York and go to Tools For Woodworking. I bet you could find a cheap flight.


----------



## donwilwol

Mauricio we can call it what we like, but when I was younger I used to feel sorry for my brother because he needed glasses. Now, I have dollar store 2x glasses stuck in every corner, nook and cranny, because if I wind up somewhere without my glasses, I'm screwed, and I'm a very forgetful person. I know when I walk out the door I need 3 things, my wallet, my phone, and my glasses, and I'll still forget from time to time.

The problem with your solution for Andy is it assumes enough money to by everything at once. Its like paying shipping on an order, you always try to hold and order more to alleviate shipping, but then the $ is more than you have in this months budget.


----------



## mochoa

True… True…

Andy, just make a vacation out of it and then it will make a little more sense.


----------



## Brit

Mauricio, its a nice thought to get on a plane for a tool shopping spree in New York. The trouble is, the wife would want to come too. No doubt she wouldn't want to look at tools, so by the time she had been round the shops buying everything that I never knew we needed, I'd probably be down at least £1000.

I work for an American company, so I'll wait until they want me to go to the US for work and then I can just add on a couple of days holiday and go tool shopping, Then the game will be afoot.


----------



## donwilwol

Mauricio - NYC and vacation can NOT be used in the same sentence. Its like a contradiction of terms.


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## mochoa

would be one of those vacations where you come back tired for sure.


----------



## RGtools

A jewelers headset (optivisor) is a nice thing to have for some saws. For the most part I go by feel. When you hit the right angles it just feels (and sounds) right.

Sharpening your own saws is about as hard as learnign to sharpen your planes and chisels, you just have to learn some simple geometry and build some muscle memory.


----------



## mochoa

I know Veritas Saws look like what Batman would use if he was into woodworking, but I'm leaning towards getting a couple. Call me crazy but I think they look pretty cool. I tried one out at the Woodworking Show last year and it was super sweet.

I'm looking to get away from my cheap Japanese pull saws, Zona Saws, etc… and get some solid western saws for joinery, dovetails, tenons, cutting the line on a rabet, crosscutting small parts etc.. So here are the options I'm wrestling with. 
-Get the 14tpi Dovetail Saw & the 14tpi Cross Cut Carcass Saw (no multi discount for these)
-Get the set of two Carcass saws and hold off on the dovetail saw. 12tp rip saw & 14tpi Crosscut Saw (Combo discount package)
However I'm also thinking that I need a Rip Frame Saw for cutting Tenons, like the one RG has. I'm thinking it will come in handy for my upcoming workbench build.

I don't need to get everything at once.

Which one of those options would give me the most versatility/usefulness based on your experience? I can only get two saws right now and I'm thinking I can probably cut decent dovetails with the rip carcass saw too.

I like pictures so here are a couple:



















Thanks for your input.


----------



## Brit

*Mauricio* - you nailed it with the Batman anology. If you don't mind the way they look, then you can't get better saws for the money.

When considering what saws to buy, you need to consider the thickness of the material you want cut with them, the density of the wood species you use most of the tiime and what is more important to you,the quality of the finished cut or the speed of cutting it.

I would say that ideally you need a large Tenon saw filed rip (10 or 11TPI) which unfortunately Veritas don't offer in their molded spine line. This would be ideal for your workbench build. In addition, out of the two options you propose, I would go for the 14tpi Dovetail Saw & the 14tpi Cross Cut Carcass Saw. The 12TPI Rip Carcass Saw is too coarse for your main dovetail saw. Most Dovetail saws are around 15TPI, so 14TPI is coarser than most.

Just my opinion though.


----------



## RGtools

The bow saw Mauricio talked about is a 9 tpi ECE. Perfect forbig tennons. (love the batman analogy…it applies to all the veritas tools). I can't say what the right saw for you is but I can say these are the one I reach for the most.

The bowsaw
4 1/2 tpi panel saw
Disston d23
Dovetail saw

Those do anything.


----------



## BrandonW

Wow, a Batman saw-great description. I have the Veritas DT saw and think it's great, but if you have both the crosscut and the rip carcass saws, you might not even need the DT saw. The only problem with the DT saw that I've found is if you're cutting deep dovetails. I couldn't use it to cut DTs on 6/4 thick wood.


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## Brit

To cover all the bases, you really need quite a few backsaws, a rip saw, a couple of half rip saws, a few panel saws and what the hell, a small toolbox saw will come in handy too. Then for small moldings, you need a gents saw (the Zona will do here). Let's not forget a keyhole saw, a coping saw, a fret saw etc, etc.

Acquiring a full compliment of saws is a journey, just like buying hand planes, but you've got to start somewhere right? If the Veritas saws suit your budget, I'm sure you won't be disappointed.


----------



## RGtools

^enabler


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## mochoa

Thanks for the input guys. The next question is what kind of saw would Chuck Norris use????? (Brit I dont know if goofing on Chuck Norris is in style over there). Nah he probably would just karate chop his wood.

Brit, its gonna take me a while to accumulate all those. Its a good thing I have my 14" Bandsaw with 12" resaw capacity to use in the meantime. I do need a key whole saw though.

RG - I agree that I need a couple of more Panel saws. I have one I refurbished but need to file cross cut (9tpi) then I just need a coarse cutting rip panel saw. Though Highlands woodworking has a big 5tpi rip Continental Frame saw I like, the thin kerf could be nice. I may look at the frame saw like you have later down the road.

Brandon - I think I'm leaning towards what you say, especially after reading what Paul Sellers wrote.

So,,,, I went ahead and ordered the two Veritas "carcass" saws, I think I can cut dovetails with the "Tenon" saw. The description of the TPI and Blade length are similar to what Paul uses to cut his dovetails, He calls it a Tenon saw they call it a carcass saw….

I think this will give me a good starter while I search ebay for other saws I'll want in the future. I cant wait to make some holders for these saws in my tool cabinet.


----------



## Brit

Mauricio - No we don't goof on Chuck Norris, but don't hold back on my account.

I agree with Paul that you shouldn't get hung up on the names that manufacturers assign to backsaws nowadays. A small tenon saw often overlaps with a carcass saw and sometimes even a dovetail saw. In days gone by, there was no such thing as a carcass saw filed rip, only crosscut and it was used for most joinery tasks. For their rip cuts, they tended to use a large tenon saw 14"-16" long with a maximum 3 1/2" - 4" depth of cut. I'm not saying that a carcass saw filed rip isn't useful (I have the Gramercy carcass and dovetail saws), just that you shouldn't read too much into a name IMO.


----------



## RGtools

I want the Gramercy sash saw.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Old post that RG commented on led me to an even older post that led me to post here. It's not specifically about using, collecting, cleaning or buying, but rather storing. Check out the storage this grumpy guy implemented in his workspace:

http://lumberjocks.com/projects/7267

And now, for specific content, my favorite saw right now is a 22" Bridge Tools saw, Model #255. One masterfully cutting machine, I say. And I'll likely never see another…


----------



## RGtools

Bridge makes saws too? Not good, must resist.


----------



## Bertha

RG, erase it from your mind while you can. Resist google.
I'm drawn to the beastmaster myself. Walnut and stainless for me.


----------



## Bertha

Did anyone happen to notice the name on the example BadAxe gift certificate? lol


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

heh…

RG, it's Bridge Tool, not Bridge City Tool. Bridge Tool appears to be another one of the midwest's vanity hardware brands from the early part of the 20th century. So it's easy to turn away…


----------



## lysdexic

Al,

That is the handle and fastener that I chose for the 16" tenon saw. Mark states that he has had some supply problems. He asked if I'd be interested in a mesquite handle with the black oxide that he had in stock. Very tempting but stuck with the original order. It will be another month though. Bummer.

Strongly considering placing a order for a 12" combo tenon saw.


----------



## lysdexic

Al, I pretty sure you can customize those gift certificates. Just to make sure, try to order one with my name on it.


----------



## Bertha

Scott, I should have never found that shop. A fellow fellow from my Albuquerque stint lives right down the street from the shop. She's the Chief there. I've got enough problems without adding a high end saw fetish; however, I feel obliged to support that dude. World class stuff being made in real time. With his military history, I suspect that his character hasn't been lost on you. Mesquite and black would have been hard to pass up. I want them all. I ordered the hook set, just testing the waters, you know


----------



## lysdexic

I've had some longish emails with him about the military, small business, hand tool popularity and such. I'll admit one of the reason that I am a customer is just the way he describes his saws. This is what mark wrote about hand tool popularity in an email. Very perceptive.

"The renaissance is definitely on, that's for sure, and I'd be the first to say that Chris is indeed the Pied Piper charming the market into using hand tools. But on top of that, there are very distinct common denominators for this market I see every day:
· College educated
· Position of responsibility & authority
· Tired of staring into a computer all day
· Tired of telling apathetic slapheads (today's generation) what to do and how to do it with mixed to poor results
· At the end of the day, just wants to repair to their workshop and quietly work wood via hand tools with no one bitching at them, while quietly sipping on the merlot or beverage of choice and listening to Pandora
· In short-it's all about male therapy without boozing, snorting, gambling or skirt-chasing. There are worse things than spending a few thou on quality tools, right?"


----------



## Bertha

*it's all about male therapy without boozing, snorting, gambling or skirt-chasing.*
I couldn't agree more. Wow. I like him even more now. If you look at what you spend the bulk of your money on, if you really look at it, all tools are cheap (excluding Felders, lol). I would consider a saw from BadAxe to be a multiple lifetime tool. Your SawStop will be a distant memory while your kid's still sawing.


----------



## Dennisgrosen

... a few thou …. I´m not sure my wife will agree with you there …. 
well she just don´t suport bying tools but she is very happy I can do it my self 
but when it comes to paying for tools ............... always the same triade …. we can just send for a proffesionel to fix it …...... yah right …. does he comes for free saturday night when the waterline 
is leaking or the roof need to be fixed ….......... I don´t think so

have a great weekend 
Dennis


----------



## donwilwol

I wonder how someone whom I've never met can describe my life better than I ever could…... Thanks for sharing it!!

But on top of that, there are very distinct common denominators for this market I see every day:
· College educated
· Position of responsibility & authority
· Tired of staring into a computer all day
· Tired of telling apathetic slapheads (today's generation) what to do and how to do it with mixed to poor results
· At the end of the day, just wants to repair to their workshop and quietly work wood via hand tools with no one bitching at them, while quietly sipping on the merlot or beverage of choice and listening to Pandora
· In short-it's all about male therapy without boozing, snorting, gambling or skirt-chasing. There are worse things than spending a few thou on quality tools, right?"


----------



## Dennisgrosen

its all written more or less here in bluekingfishers blog 
http://lumberjocks.com/topics/32521

just read the article it has a great excuse for us to be used shameless ..... 

Dennis


----------



## Brit

Talk of Bad Axe saws should be banned from Lumberjocks, at least until he gets a distributor in the UK so that I can buy them too. I can't tell you how many times I've been to his site and my finger has been poised to make a deposit. It hurts to look, knowing it will never be. Sob!


----------



## mochoa

Brit, I think we need some pics of your saws. You'be been holding out on us.

Smitty, thats an interesting way to hang saws but I still dont get what holds them in place.

Bad Axe makes some beautifu tools. I usually take my tharapy with a little boozing though.


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## Brit

*Mauricio* - I hope to put the final coat on *'Big Joe'* tomorrow. I hope to get it re-assembled before I leave on Monday morning for Denmark. If I do, I'll post the final part of the blog on Monday evening.


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## Bertha

Brit, for the record, I've become somewhat of an international shipper Talk about a pain in the arse. I'd be happy to arrange your sale and shipping should you choose to buy a local saw. Just putting it out there


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## lysdexic

Brit,
Don't feel too bad. I pulled the "trigger" in July. Just informed, again, it will be another 4 weeks. Ive been without a 16" tenon saw for 46 years. I don't a few more weeks should matter.


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## Brit

Al that's very kind of you. At the moment though if I remember correctly, after I finish Big Joe I've got two dovetail saws, two 12" backsaws and another four 14" backsaws to restore. I plan to get them restored by the end of March, then build my saw vise and sharpen them all up along with my panel, half-rip and rip saws.

If they all suck, I'll probably take you up on your kind offer.


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## Bertha

I'm sure you'll find a winner in the gang, Brit.


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## Brit

*BIG JOE* - 14" W.Tyzack, Sons & Turner (1887-1910) 11 tpi (10 ppi) filed Rip

Before restoration:









After restoration:









Four part restoration blog here


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## Bertha

^that's what I'm talking about, Andy!!!!!


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## donwilwol

Andy, I love that handle. The rest isn't so bad either.


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## lysdexic

Andy,
I just read through your restoration blog. Nothing short of inspiring.

I have a question though. Somewhere in the blog someone equated your "hammerite" jelly to naval jelly. Now, I have no experience with either but got a negative impression of naval jelly. I can't remember the specifics but I think the objection was a dull gray finish. Big Joe doesn't seem to have suffered that fate.

What say you?


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## Brit

*lysdexic* - I've never used naval jelly, so I can't comment on that. I can tell you though that Hammerite rust removal gel does not leave a dull gray finish unless the metal under the rust is dull gray anyway. I haven't seen any evidence that the gel turns metal a dull gray. When you restore old tools such as this saw that are pitted, the pitting and any scratches etc are even more evident once the rust has been removed. Of course the gel won't remove pitting or scratches, so that's where the wet and dry paper comes in. Even then, it is unlikely you will remove all traces of the neglect.

I really rate the Hammerite Rust Removal gel because:

1) It is fast (20 mins for 1st application, 15 mins for successive applications). Surface rust requires just one application. Heavier rust will require 2 or 3 applications. Even with three applications, you are done inside 1 1/2 hours. The times are important. Less than 20 mins is not as effective and leaving it for more than 20 mins does not mean it will be anymore effective. Ideally, you don't want the gel to dry out, so don't work in direct sunlight. After 20 mins, brush it gently with a soft wire brush or a green scouring pad. If the rust doesn't want to come off on the first application, don't be tempted to scrub harder. Apply a second coat.
2) It does exactly what it says on the tin, is non-toxic and won't harm any paintwork. Notice I said that it does what it says on the tin and what it says on the tin is that is will remove rust. It performs that operation very well. I think that some people expect it to polish the metal for you too. It won't. You have to do that with good old-fashioned elbow grease.
3) It also removes the black staining that you get on old saws which is something that some of the other rust removal methods won't touch.
4) It is economical. A little goes a long way and it keeps for a long time.
5) It is readily available in the UK and it isn't expensive.

Hammerite also make a dip, but I haven't tried that yet. A dip is useful for removing rust from small parts such as screws or inaccessible places, so I will be trying that when I remember to pick some up. I did a review of the gel on a very old Spear and Jackson handsaw. If you take a look, you will see that when the rust is removed the steel does look gray. The reason for that is because that saw was made from gray cast steel, so no surprise there.


----------



## RGtools

I can speak for naval Jelly being a good product. I use it myself, and I think Andy has the right idea about the dry paper being what makes the tool truly shiny.


----------



## lysdexic

RG will naval jelly remove the black spots. That is what I am looking for.

Oh, and Brit - thanks for the detailed response.


----------



## need2boat

Ok, I've made comment in the past that although I enjoy the sharping process I really felt I was struggling to understand the finer points of filing cross cut. Admittedly a BIG part is I learn better by example and when I found out Matt Cianci from the saw blog and other places on the web was teaching a class down the street from my Aunts house I figured it was change to learn something and visit some family. You can read the details on my blog post or hand tools but in short it was a real break through. Everyone has there own (god help me I'm going to use this expression?) aha moment.. and for me it was understanding how to use the flats left after jointing the cross cut. Seems like a small thing but for me it really clarified all that I'd read and I could better see what needed to be done.

Blog

Anyway whats a post without pictures.









The finished product after filing. 8-PPI Cross Cut.


















No where as nice a finish as Andy's ;-) but it cuts Oh so nice even in it's compact 20" size

JFF


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## mochoa

Need2boat, those teeth are a thing of beauty. Congrats!


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## Dennisgrosen

nice row …... now you can make the big toothsmile without being embarressed …


----------



## Brit

*Need2boat* - That looks fantastic. I'm off to read your blog now, although I think I know what you mean about reading the flats and pressing on the front or the back of the tooth as needed as you file. I'll go read it now to see if I'm right. LOL.

I've got a Disston just like that waiting in the pile.


----------



## need2boat

Thanks guys for the kind words.

You know the joke about hearing the angles aaaaaAAA in the background when you finally get something it was little like that. I mean I still have a ways to go but I guess I understand a bit more about whats "perfect" is and what I need to get closer.

The point about the flats after jointing a cross cut has to do with the triangle left behind. First off I just wasn't jointing or flatting down enough to really have something I could clearly see. So after I stopped worrying about filing down to much and got on with I could make out the flats left from where the tips used to be. Those flat are really a triangle and looking at the triangle even more then the SET shows you where you need to file. Then it's just a mater of 1/2 the amounts of flats first going one way then the other.

I also stopped flipping the saw which some like and other don't I'd say from a learning perspective it's easier not having to flip the saw and just flip your angle jig for fleam.

You'll also note I'm left handed so I file with the handle to the left. Not a big deal but something if your teaching you need to remember.

Joe


----------



## cellophane

I have cleaned up one of the saws that was left in the garage by the previous owner of my home - it's a Disston (warranted superior?) back saw. I took it all apart, cleaned the blade as best I could (i.e. had time to do), polished the brass and sanded down the handle. Put it together and then sharpened. For sharpening I made a saw vice out of some plywood scrap and picked up a couple files at the local hardware store. Took a little practice to get it down but sharpening is pretty simple once you do it a time or two. I did file it as a rip and not a crosscut but the methodology is pretty similar. I would guess if I were good at it a full sharpening would take 30 minutes or so for a backsaw.

I haven't tried setting or retoothing but I doubt it's too hard to do manually 

The one thing I'd like to do in general for cleaning old tools is set up a sand blasting booth so I can blast instead of sand for hours on end.

LN has some great videos on Youtube about sharpening: 




As an aside - you can find anvils at blacksmithing get togethers - price depends on size / quality. In general, the bigger the anvil the less force is required to work the metal. I took a blacksmithing class a few years ago, it was quite a bit of fun although I had coal boogers for days after class.


----------



## Brit

Not sure if everyone saw this free 5 hour saw sharpening class with Paul Sellers, so I'm posting a link to it here.
I'll be going.

http://lumberjocks.com/topics/32826#reply-358413


----------



## mochoa

Andy, sounds like a great opportunity. I look forward to hearing all about it.


----------



## lysdexic

This a Disston D-8 that I rehabbed. I never posted it because I failed to take before pics. Shame on me. This is the reason that I asked questions about the black discoloration from the rust. I have had excellent results with the ER.

Thanks Dan, Don et al for the help. I dont mind using elbow grease but with this saw plate it took more than a little. I just wanted to make sure that I was not overlooking / missing a better technique.

I sanded the plate with advancing grits and mineral spirits using a sanding block over the etch. I scraped the finish off the handle, sanded and then wet sanded 3/2/1 varnish with 400 grit.

I will admit that I cherish this tool more than most. Not because of any collector value or enhanced performance but because of the elbow grease. Beauty is subjective.


----------



## donwilwol

It looks great Scott. How does it cut? It looks like one side came it contact with something it shouldn't have. Nothing a file won't take care of.


----------



## need2boat

lysdexic,

that's a fine looking saw, really nice looking handle. I have the same one and it has the best sound off all my saws when you thump it. Trouble is it had a bunch of broken teeth but last weekend I installed a newly ground cutter in my retoother and ran it through. Hopefully find the time this weekend to set and sharpen it.

Joe


----------



## Brit

Nice job Scott. Welcome to the club. I did a couple of D8s (7ppi and 8ppi) at the beginning of the year. I'm taking them with me tomorrow to Paul Seller's class. Hopefully I'll get a chance to sharpen at least one of them.


----------



## lysdexic

Just when I felt that I may have just a little worth in life…...Brit posts.

I show my face and timidly peek into the tool restoration light only to be blinded. I shall sulk back into the shadows.


----------



## donwilwol

Yes, you are welcome back here with the rest of us. I don't know how he does it. I restore something and think "wow this looks pretty good" then I see one of Andy's restores and wonder. I'm beginning to wonder if its trick photography


----------



## lysdexic

Don,
that is kind of my point. I sanded my saw plate A LOT and I think I could have sanded even more and not achieved the results that Brit has. I've read his blogs and I think that his results with the Hammerite are different than Evaporust. In his restore blog entry a few days ago Brit states, concerning the Hammerite "…and gently rub along the length of the plate. The black staining and any rust comes off in no time at all."

We have different goals when we restore. My goal was not remove the "patina" but I love the way his saw plates look.

BTW, my D-8 cuts like a dream, at least for me. This is the only panel saw that I've owned aside for the ones that my white collar step-father had. I do know what blemish that you are referring to. It is probably the pic. This is the saw that I sent to Matt Cianci to smith, file, set and sharpen. It is hard to capture the glint of the teeth in a pic but here is another try.


----------



## Brit

You guys crack me up.

There's nothing special about me let me tell ya. In a way though, you are right about it being trick photography Don. My restorations always look better in my photographs than they do in my hands. I don't know why, I generally just point and click and the wife's camera does the rest.


----------



## donwilwol

Scott, I'd be proud of it, especially if it cuts nice. It certainly looks great. The first picture looks like the back part of the right blade set is missing the back side of the teeth. I definitely don't see it in the second picture, so its probably my very poor eye sight. I've got another back saw I need to get going on. I have 2 blanket chest to build for my daughter first.

Andy, your saws always come out nice. The only other one I have seen that's close id Dan's back saw. You two guys are like shining fools. Wait, that sounds wrong, make sure you put the emphasis on the shining part


----------



## mochoa

Scott, I think your saw looks pretty good. Nothing wrong with the patina.

Andy's probably look better than they did brand new.

Paul Sellers just did a blog on saw sharpening. He totally files the teeth off and old saw, reshaped and sharpened them in about 15min. That's skill…

He actually goes through his whole restoration process. http://paulsellers.com/paul-sellers-blog/page/5/ scroll down a little ways.

I look forward to Andy's report back from the class.


----------



## donwilwol

Mauricio, I looked through Paul's sharpening blog you posted. Its interesting but I'm going to need to do another saw or two before shaping, sizing and sharpening takes me 5 minutes. That means to just do normal sharpening its 5 minutes.


----------



## mochoa

If I could do it in 30min I would be stoked!


----------



## donwilwol

If I could do it consistently I would be stoked!


----------



## RGtools

Panel saws don't take that long. Dovetail saws on the other hand….


----------



## need2boat

yea I would agree the smaller cross cut teeth are much harder due to the size and lack of set.I care less about the the time and more about the job as we all know speed will come with practice.

I would offer it takes a bit extra but I mark ever other tooth with a black sharpie dot on anything 13 and higher unless it has a LOT of set. I find it allows me to keep a steady progress without having to stop and double, then triple check. ;-0

Another thing I've noticed when sharping cross cut saws is, the more set it has the easier it is to sharpen.

JFF


----------



## Brit

Had a great time with Paul Sellers yesterday talking saws. I had a go at sharpening Big Joe and one of my D8s. It is definately harder than it looks. I'm too ashamed to post pictures of the teeth, but I will once I've rectified both saws LOL


----------



## need2boat

Look forward to it Andy. I'd be the first to say I've made a mess of a few saws but luckily just about anything can be fixed.

JFF


----------



## donwilwol

Andy, if it bad enough you're ashamed of it, but not bad enough you will mention it, it probably looks like all of mine when I'm done. We need to learn from your mistakes (that's like living precariously through your restores)

I'm sure its not THAT bad.


----------



## Brit

Trust me Don, old Joe Duckworth is turning in his grave right now. Funny thing is though, as irregular as they are, it still cut to full depth in about 4 or 5 strokes. Maybe I've inadvertantly come up with a new filing pattern that will take the hand tool world by storm. Then again…

I would show you, but Al would have to give you a shot of morphine first.


----------



## donwilwol

Thanks Andy, I needed that. I had a pretty stressful week in the consulting world, and that made me literally LOL. I am off today and spending some time in the shop. Life is good.


----------



## lysdexic

In the shop today Don? Lucky. I am getting my arse kick today at work.


----------



## RGtools

Jealous. Enjoy Don.


----------



## Dennisgrosen

naaa it can´t be as bad as my try a few years back … and I´m still here ….............
SO LETS SEE THE HOROR MOVIE…....ANDY KILLS SAWS…... HE HE HE


----------



## Bertha

Lysdexic, outstanding saw. Once you learn to sharpen them, I have a few for you Maybe I could convince you to buy a retoother. I have secret intel that an old buddy of ours (LJ) just bought a surface grinder. He's a die hard metalhead who knows what he's doing.


----------



## JoeMcGlynn

I picked up a D8 the other day and spent a few enjoyable hours yesterday cleaning it up.

(before)









(after) Note that I rounded the horns off so they come to a crisper point, I like this look better. I'm still applying danish oil to the handle today to build up a little more sheen. Later today I'm shipping it off to Bad Axe to get properly sharpened.


----------



## DaddyZ

Nice Restore !!!


----------



## donwilwol

that looks great Joe. Nice job.


----------



## Bertha

I really like the reshape. Very handsome.


----------



## mochoa

Do yall recognize this guy from Paul Sellers sharpening workshop?









Andy tell me about that saw vise? It looks like a simple piece of wood with a kerf cut in it?


----------



## need2boat

I picked up a few nice saws on monday. I met up with a local guy who deals mostly with easily flip-able or auction tools and saws aren't of interest for the most part for him. He's been collecting for 30 years so I never know what I'll find but I enjoy talking and looking through his garage FULL of old wooden tool boxes of "auctions past".

I live a good deal of my life just across the Delaware river from where the Diston factory is and now currently live about 15 minutes from where Richardson Brothers Saw Works was in Newark, N.J. So I've been keeping my eye out for them. Currently I have one nice back saw and now found another two. All three need some work but have great sounding blades when thumbed (not sure if that's the correct term) and the handles feel great.

I'm not sure about this saw. it could be a Richardson, the etching is very light and hopefully with a little cleaning it will come out.









Handle









Richardson maybe a #7









etching









Second Richardson









etching









Older Diston The blade looks like it's never been machine cut. 









Joe


----------



## Bertha

^Really fine saw, Joe!


----------



## RGtools

Hey Joe. How do you like those to saw benches in service. Are they stable? What's the footprint?


----------



## need2boat

Hey Rayn,

just checked you site, to double check I had your name right, congrates on the teaching class. that really cool.

I don't think these horses would compare with the normal A-frame or just plan beefy ones like yours but the 1/2 dozen boards I've cut so far have been fine. I just really liked the design and I thought it would be good practice for making stools or such. I also like they are light and easy to stack or move out of the way.

I can sit or stand on them, I'm around 170 lbs but I'm sure if I were to jump up and down or apply pressure sideways they wouldn't be happy. The joints came out good but the angles are a bit wonky as I drilled with brace plus some of the tenons I made with the hollow auger didn't cut straight. That tool takes some getting use too. ;-0 I still need to add wedges and I may add a hole for my hold fast.

I can check the final sizes tonight it was more about the wood I had at the time then the design. I've put a few blog post on my site about the progress. I had hoped to add the wedges this week but I needed to come into work yesterday and today.










JFF


----------



## Bertha

JFF, I like that assembly of planes waiting at the ready


----------



## need2boat

Thanks al,

I rather like the wine in a Disney glass. Looks a bit out of place, now that I look at the picture.

Joe


----------



## donwilwol

Joe, that a couple of beautiful saws. It makes me think of all the saws I have waiting for some TLC.

And the saw bench on the list.

Andy looks so intense. Its hard to believe he never did show us the ugly sharpen job.


----------



## Bertha

Joe, I just thought it was stain in a nice cup, lol. I live in West Virginia; they don't even sell proper wine glasses here


----------



## need2boat

Al I spend a good deal of time in WV in the summer around the Yough and Cheat rivers and not everyone is from the hills. I even find some good beer now in the Friendsville market. ;-)

Don,
Every time I see that big suitcase of saws I think, Oh boy he's got some nice ones. I'm at the point now where I need to decided what goes and stays. The local vintage tool club to me, Craft has a Feb meeting and tail gate so hopefully I can make room in the till for these new ones and find homes for some of the others, Oh and not buy any more, well maybe one more. ;-0

Joe


----------



## RGtools

Joe. Hollow Auger… I have never heard that term?

Try a spoon bit. They do angles very easily. Thanks about the class, it's been fun but I am going to owe my wife something very pretty once I am done with it…it's taken way more time than I tought it would.

I need a second sawhorse. I want one that is light since I do carpentry projects on site (the beefy one I made ROCKS in the shop but its a bit heavy to lug to a job site). I am going back and forth between your design and a classic A frame.

Thanks for sharing.


----------



## donwilwol

The problem joe, is that suit case was only part of the dilemma. I posted this before, but a friend of mine who is an auto mechanic decided it was time to clean out the upstairs in his barn.

Look about 5 pictures down.


----------



## Bertha

Joe, the good thing about saw storage is they're skinny, lol. 
Anyone coming to WV should bring some water clothes. We've got the best river fun around. You're right, too, although I live in the hills, I'm a city boy by birth.


----------



## lysdexic

OK, I am ready Al !!!!!!!!!

Alright that was awful. Pic deleted.


----------



## donwilwol

oh please stop!!!!!


----------



## need2boat

Wowza Don,

that's a good hall. Something you just wouldn't find in my area.

JFF

Rayn

here's a picture of my hollow auger on it's side.


----------



## need2boat

missed the pic.










Joe


----------



## donwilwol

to late, I already seen the pic. That was bad.


----------



## Bertha

It's OK, I've got a picture of Lysdexic last time we went swimming.


----------



## RGtools

I am glad I missed the aweful. DUDE that is a sweet tool

Joe. DUDE that is a sweet tool! Why is it giving you grief. Is it just hard to make it track straight? Removing the corners with a shave or a drawknife before you drill might help. Did I misspell my name somewhere? Could you point it out so I can fix it?

Ryan


----------



## Bertha

Y'all are probably wondering about those tattoos. He's got some awesome ones.


----------



## need2boat

Ryan,

I am sorry that's me. I'm good at picking up details in design ( I work in production) but spelling and numbers seems to give me fits.

per the auger, It's not really an issue more a lack of practice. I have a spoke pointer that goes along with it, that rounds the edges. I think I just didn't get it started straight enough and some of the tenons ended up on slight angles. It may be I should have shaped the tops more with the pointer to help? I did a lot of looking on-line and couldn't find much about setting up the cutter or using it. For sure the last leg looked the best and I'm sure the next ones I cut will be even better.

Joe


----------



## RGtools

It happens Joe. Life goes on.

I definitly think a tool that complex would have a bit of a learning curve (like getting a moving fillister up and running).

Thanks for sharing the design and some about the build.


----------



## Brit

*Mauricio* - The saw vise you were asking about was exactly that, a strip of wood about 1 1/2 inches square and just a bit longer than the saw plate that you need to sharpen. Paul cut them on the bandsaw at the beginning of the class. He cut a kerf down the center and drilled a hole at the end to stop the wood splitting. The saw plate was placed in the kerf and the whole lot was clamped in the vise.

Although not intentional, I'm sure glad my arm was covering up the teeth. 

*Joe* - Those are some fine looking saws.


----------



## mochoa

I have a man crush on Paul Sellars right now, I just get through reading all of his blogs. You cant make a simpler saw vise than that.

Joe I like your benches, I'm planning on making a couple myself. I think the design is good, its what you see in all the old paintings of woodworkers, I think you just need to make the top thicker, wich should make the legs more stable.


----------



## mochoa

I have a man crush on Paul Sellars right now, I just get through reading all of his blogs. You cant make a simpler saw vise than that.

Joe I like your benches, I'm planning on making a couple myself. I think the design is good, its what you see in all the old paintings of woodworkers, I think you just need to make the top thicker, wich should make the legs more stable.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Found a much more correct mitre saw over the weekend to go with the Stanley SW No. 346 box - it's a Disston 'Made Expressly For Stanley' model, 26" long and 5" under the spine.










Here it is, hanging nextto the nearly complete box:










Blade is dead straight and cuts like crazy without touch-up needed. Just oiled and go! Sometimes things *do* work out!


----------



## donwilwol

Nice. You're on a roll Smitty.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

I've been patient; nice when somthing comes together. Saw was hanging way up on a back wall, almost didn't see it! Probably been there many years, the owner said. She didn't know anything about this kind of "man stuff." So it's got a better home now!


----------



## need2boat

Hey mochoa,

I think your right about the top. At the time the thickest wood I have was around 5 or 6 quarter but over the weekend I broke down and bought some old mostly yellow pine barn wood. Time will tell if it was a good deal but a number of the pieces are true 4X10X 6' to 8' long. They came from a stable in Philly and most of the wood has been denailed. I brought a few pieces into the shop to dry out a bit more this week and will see how it look after I plane a few down. It's hard to tell but I'd say it's yellow pine.










Joe


----------



## Bertha

^Whatever it is, it's a big ole slab!


----------



## need2boat

yea I didn't think to take a picture mostly because I was ready to fall over after unloading the truck but I got 6 pieces of what I'm guessing was a crazy large beam cut into chunks.

They most be 20" X 20" X 20". It's sad the guy cut them into such small pieces as they would have been really nice to resaw into boards. The deal was I had to take everything, good or bad. The chunks will most likely go in the fire if I can split them down or maybe big tire stops.

Joe


----------



## donwilwol

I don't know Joe? 20" x 20" x 20" seems like it could be resawn into something real usable. I could find lots of usages for 29 - 20" x 20" x 1" boards.


----------



## Bertha

^Panels for raised panel doors jumps to mind.


----------



## need2boat

I'll see how they make it thru the winter. It's just a shame to cut the bean down into small chunks. They will be to big for my bandsaw and not high enough grade to pay to have them cut. I'll see if someone local wants to have fun with them. The guy didn't do the best job of storing the wood so there will be lots of waist.

looking forward to see how it comes out in the planer.

Joe


----------



## StumpyNubs

Nicest saw I ever saw…

(That one wasn't even a little funny…)


----------



## donwilwol

Joe, make yourself a good solid rip framesaw. I'm thinking of doing that myself for the 2 1/2" stock I landed a while ago. I cut a piece in half with the table saw so I could see what it looked like resawing with my bandsaw, but I hate the thought of cutting it in half, resawing and then gluing it back together. Plus, I can use the exercise.


----------



## need2boat

Don,

I've had a frame saw on the list of things I'd like to make and your right this would be a great time to try it. Josh at hyper kitten has a good how-to and it looks straight forward.

Joe


----------



## donwilwol

Joe, I built one but not big enough for that. If you look at my projects (or maybe blogs) its in there. I made my own pins and blade. It might give some ideas.


----------



## Bertha

Don, what is the designed use for a frame saw?


----------



## donwilwol

its the hand version of the band saw (I believe its just another way of saying Bow saw, but there could be a distinct difference.)


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

I thought a frame saw was specific to those with the blade in the middle and was specifically for re-sawing. Learned something new today!


----------



## donwilwol

you may have learned wrong Smitty. Maybe that's the difference.


----------



## Bertha

It makes sense that it would be primarily for resawing. I've never seen one before.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Hmmm… Then I'll see what I can find to clear this up!


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

No clarification as to what a frame saw actually is, yet, but here's what I think of when it comes to re-sawing and 'frame saws' (note the blade is in the middle of the frame):










Schwarz originally posted this pic on his WordPress blog, over a year ago (in the interest of full disclosure).


----------



## donwilwol

well Smitty even if your wrong that's how I'm going to wind of remembering it. About the time I built this I remember a thread where mads and others were in a similar discussion. My recollection was they were basically the same.

Look here this explanation is how I understood it. It never mentioned the type with the blade down the middle.

If yopu search Highland woodworking bow saws and frame saws take you to the same page and they are all called frame saws.

Go to here and it says Bow Saws -
Alternative names (Buck Saw, Frame Saw, Framed saw, Pit Saw, Reciprocating Rectilinear, Reciprocating Resawing Machine, Sweep Saw, Turning Saw)

So I think they are the same thing, and just like hand saws they are rip, crosscut and other types of frame saws.

So …..............


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Additional input on making a frame saw for re-sawing (not trying to be right, seriously; strictly to assemble info), can be found here.

Mr. Clark also presents how to use said saw for hand-resawing here.

I'm thinking it'd be worth it to made one of these…

A plate from Roubo of interest:


----------



## RGtools

Me and Mads got on this subject once. I need to see if I can find the info on it. I think we decided that it is one of those regional things. (based on nothing really but sometimes that's how things go)

To me a Bow saw is a saw with a blade on the bottom and a Frame saw is with the center blade…I can't remember precisely what Mads called his.


----------



## Bertha

WAll I know is that those two dudes in the pic are earning their wage.


----------



## donwilwol

NO SMITTY YOUR WRONG (just kidding). I never really knew but I do remember the conversion Ryan is speaking of. I have seen a lot of the saw with the blade on the bottom, but only a few of the ones with the blade in the middle.

Anyhow, I want to make one with the blade in the middle for resawing. Until we figure out if there is a right or a wrong, I'll just call it a ripping frame saw. (seems that would be right either way)

I think these conversations are great. Its what I came to LJ's for, to learn something.


----------



## paulw2

There are some great saws on here. My father used to have a decent amount of this type of tool, very ancient and interesting to look at. When he passed, he handed the collection over to his brother. I was never really interested in his collection but after seeing all these pictures, I might go to my uncle's house and check them all out. I know exactly where they are, just never seemed to have an interest in them.


----------



## donwilwol

Well Paulw2, not only do I agree you should check them out, take a camera and share with the rest of us saps. We tend to drool over that kind of stuff.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Wouldn't be the first time, and certainly won't be the last. Just ask SWMBO. 

Of all the absolutely great tool builds I've seen here and elsewhere, the RFS is the first I've actually felt the need to make myself. Once it's done, I'll need a volunteer for the pit OR to stand on the bench….

Paul - Do what Don said!

EDIT: Sorry, Joe. I just read up the thread and saw that you also linked to the hyperkitten site on frame saws… great minds think alike.


----------



## donwilwol

This thread kind of backs up the theory that the blade on the bottom is a bow saw, but takes it one step further, if the blade turns (like mine) its a turning saw, (which are all types of frame saws ie: framed turning saw).

If the blade is in the middle its a framed rip saw.

Same as you Smitty, just adding info to the pile.

Edit, wonder what to make the rip blade for a RFS from. It would be easier, it doesn't have to turn.


----------



## Bertha

This thread is friggin awesome. Carry on.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Band saw blade. Heck, a skipped-tooth resaw blade!

Note the bolt in the build pic from Mr. Clark's website. Flattened the sides of a commond hex bolt and drilled it for a pin that captures the holed blade.


----------



## donwilwol

I only have one Smitty, and it fairly new and one my bandsaw. I hope that baby doesn't get cut for a while!!


----------



## donwilwol

I had about 2 hours in the shop today. I actually started my saw benches. I cheated and cut a large cedar garden bench I made 20+ years ago in half. No pic's yet, but it did happen. Trust me


----------



## muleskinner

I'm not a collector and not even an avid hand tool user but I happened by a garage sale this morning and couldn't resist this. I remember my father trimming out our house with one back in the day.


















They had it marked for $50 and I got it for $30. I put some slickum on the obvious places and everything moves smoothly. It cuts but seems like a sharpening and set would improve things. The brand says the saw is 28×5 made by E.C. Atkins. The box tag says Frame No. 3 and No. 358.

My question is, can it be made pretty? Pointers? Secret rust stain removal formulas?


----------



## muleskinner

P.S. Yes, I'm going back through the 520+ comments to see if my questions are already answered but in the mean time I'm throwing myself to the mercy of the court for leniency.


----------



## donwilwol

Can it be made pretty?


----------



## JoeMcGlynn

I want to get a Millers Falls Langdon myself. Bad Axe says they are going to add miter box saws to their line, that should be neat.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

If you're interested in a Langdon All-Steel mitre, Joe, send me a PM and i'll get you pics and a pdf of the manual…


----------



## lysdexic

Joe,
You never responded to my question about the turn around time at Bad Axe. I am curious. I am a patient fellow but I ordered a saw from Mark July 9th. I am about to say WTF, get my money back and move on. I email him every couple months and receive a very sincere response about supply chain problems. First it was just overwhelming volume. Then it was the handles. Now it is the stainless backs. Yesterday I was informed that it would be another month. I try not to do math in public but 6 months is like 1/2 a year.

WTF


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Scott - Ouch. All I can say is, you've held out this long. Here's the Cincinnati Saw Co. backsaw Mark sharpened for me. It taught me what a handsaw should be…









Rats, handle got cut off the pic…

It's not near as shiny and bright as the awesome saws you guys restore, but the blade is sharp and true and slicker than … Well … It's slick!


----------



## lysdexic

Smit- 
I'm with ya. What's another month but 1/12 of a year? I really am not upset I just want to yell " C'mon Man!"

Also, I must confess that I told him that while we are waiting for the stainless backs to come in - could he add a 12" hybrid with a mesquite handle and a disston d-8 rip with the thumb hole to the order. I am kinda regretting that email now : ^ o


----------



## lysdexic

BTW - did you arrange that framing miter saw vice from earlier today?


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

The 400? Yeah, it should be heading this way in a week or so. I'm pumped!


----------



## lysdexic

Will the miter saw that is hanging on your wall work?


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Too big. I'm thinking my newish, big-box gent's dovetail saw would ideal for final cutting of a mitre that doesn't quite draw up tight…


----------



## Brit

Smitty - "Rats, handle got cut off the pic…"

Please would you have another go at posting a side on picture of the whole saw and a closeup of the handle. I for one would love to see it in all it's glory. Hell why not take a few and whack 'em all on here. That's what this thread is all about.

Ta.


----------



## donwilwol

If you right click the picture and save it you can see the handle.

Nice saw, I've got a couple I need to clean up and sharpen. I use the miter more than I thought I would. The saw does need some touch up though. I'll get to that someday as well.

I'm not sure I'd wait 6 months. My patience would run out.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Cincinnati Saw Co., circa 1890. An early saw venture by Geo. Bishop.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

My 10" #4 Disston has an owner's mark: RISC. Rhode Island State College, from a time in the Univ. of RI's history when they were a trade school.


----------



## racerglen

Now there's some history Smitty !
Great looking too.


----------



## JoeMcGlynn

I picked up this compass saw on ebay recently. It's nicer looking than any other saws of this type I've seen (not that I've made a study of this-just that most of them have pretty blocky looking handles).

I'm thinking of having Bad Axe sharpen it with a hybrid cut. Still waiting for it to arrive from the UK, so I'll have to evaluate once it arrives.


----------



## JoeMcGlynn

> Joe,
>You never responded to my question about the turn around time at Bad Axe. I am curious.

Lysdexic - was that for me? Sorry too many Joe's here. I've only had my order in for a week or two, so I don't have any more data than you on ordering a new saw. The D8 I sent Mark for sharpening is supposed to ship back on Monday - so it would be about a week turn-around on his end for sharpening…which is totally reasonable.

6 months kinda takes my breath away, but having started my own boutique hand-made business once in the past I can totally empathize with him. Especially when you're dealing with dealing with outside vendors.

I sent a part to be chromed once to get a quote for production. Got it back in a week, perfect. Started taking orders and got totally screwed by the plater. The first batch I sent them took probably 3 months where they were literally telling me every week "it will ship next week". Then they came back looking terrible and I had to go back to the drawing board.


----------



## donwilwol

Made 2 saw benches today. Hope to get them cleaned up and finished tomorrow.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Building those in pairs is a good move, don. Nice job, looking forward to a pose tomorrow!


----------



## RGtools

Nice work Don.

I love the joint you used.


----------



## Brit

*Scott* - I don't know why Mark doesn't take on an apprentice. Even though he gave most of his saw sharpening work to Matt over at the Saw Blog, it doesn't seem to have made much difference to his lead times. I think it is great that he won't compromise on quality and I know you'll love the saw once you get it, but 6 months is a long time to wait in this day and age.

*Don* - Yes we will definately need a pose shot. Nice saw benches.


----------



## donwilwol




----------



## Bertha

Wow! Those look great, Don!


----------



## mochoa

Nice benches Don.

I just cranked this out today. Pine top, oak firewood legs. Split, roughed out and "draw knifed" everything with my machete. I'm going to wait for the oak to dry out some more before wedging and gluing them in.

This is also the fist project I use my new brace and bits for. A lot of fun to make.

This is going to be a saw bench, slash step stool, slash kids work bench. 

















Please disregard the old crapy messy workbench in the background.


----------



## donwilwol

that's cool Mauricio. I've got a machete laying in one of my old tool boxes. I never thought of it as a woodworking tool. I may have to rethink.


----------



## RGtools

Serious galoot points for the use of a machete.

I need to make one of these kinds of stools. I have all the tools I just need to take the time.


----------



## mochoa

A machete is not the most ergonomic tool. Because it's so long and top heavy it tires your wrist out when you use it for roughing out, like a hewing axe. Something short and heavy like a hewing axe or a shorter heavy machete would be idea. This has made me want a froe and a draw knife though. But absent those you can make due with a machete.

I use the brace and pit on the end of the tennon just to mark out the circle to match the whole I made on the top. I need to make another one of these, pretty easy to do and my 4yr old some was able to help me hammer the legs in. the 1" whole is was too hard for him to drill though.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Don, I love the way those benches turned out. Nice!

Mauricio- what's with that old, crappy bench in the background?



Nice project with your son, looks great!


----------



## Brit

Great benches Don and congrats on the block plane find.

Mauricio - Nice stool/bench. You son looks like he's enjoying himself too. Great pic.


----------



## Bertha

The last time I used a machete, I machete'd my shin. I was in the woods, chopping my way through, and I had one of those claustrophobic Evil Dead II moments where I scrambled to free myself. Machete's hurt.


----------



## Brit

Freakin' machetes. Ouch, I bet that made your eyes water.


----------



## need2boat

I emailed and talked with a few Sawwrights and it sounds like most of them are behind and don't tend to deliver on Schedule. All for good reasons I'm sure but I can completely understand your frustration but at least your getting a reply of some kind.

I bought a saw from Mike Wenzloff , got it and all was great. In talking with him I asked if he would sharpen a miter box saw I was having trouble with. This was before I started to learn about it myself. I sent it UPS, and after seeing it was delivered I email at first then tried calling him a few times. I Haven't heard ANYTHING from him in 3 months. I email him and call once a month but still haven't heard anything. He does post on his site hes been very busy and works getting done and orders filled. I emailed and asked to have the saw returned and I would even pay postage but still nothing. I keep thinking one of these days It will just show up and it will be like I found a new saw. ;-)

Joe


----------



## JoeMcGlynn

Joe,

That's a sad report. Makes me nervous about doing business with any of these guys. If things are running late it's not unreasonable to let customers know.


----------



## Bertha

^I think most customers would hang right there with you. If some one told me, "Al, I'm trying but I'm all hemmed up here"; I'd respond, "take your time". It's the avoidance that gets frustrating.


----------



## need2boat

yea the no call backs or emails kind of piss me off but I have talked with Mark a few times before I ordered and I think he's just trying to do the best work he can and make everyone happy.

At this point I'm all in and not really that stressed about the missing saw but would advise anyone ordering that if you can't flex on the date you might consider buying something used?

What I did was buy another old saw to use for the miter box, learned to sharpened it here! which is cool and when the other one shows up I can deal with it.

JFF


----------



## lysdexic

For the record, i have initiated the emails with Mark at Bad Axe every time and is responses were quite prompt every time. Also, each time, I've respond " take your time." the only time that I have bitched about it has been here on this thread.

In fact, I actually added a 12" tenon saw to my order during the last email correspondence but I need to cancel that as I picked up a 12" Tyzack back saw filed rip over the weekend. It is very similar to the one that Brit acquired.


----------



## Brit

Got any pictures then Scott? I've just finished restoring my 12" Tyzack. Blog to come.


----------



## Brit

Ok I need help!!!

I'm restoring a Disston backsaw. When I got it the handle looked like this.










I thought the side of the grip facing you in the picture looked a bit dark and once I'd rubbed it down, sure enough there was a stain of some kind which was too deep in the wood for me to sand through. I don't know why, but I gave it a coat of BLO to see what would happen and now it looks like this.










It's a pain in the arse because the other side is fine.










Even if I dyed it a really dark oak colour, I think you would still see it. So I figure at this point I have three options.

1) Carry on with my finishing regime and just live with it
2) Make a new handle
3) Ebonise it so it looks a bit like this one from Two Lawyers Toolworks.










What do you think I should do guys?


----------



## racerglen

I'd give the die a try before anything else, just maybe it's doable ?
An if it's still visable, then live withit..looks like a good handle Andy, just htat color thing eh ?
I have a D-10- that irritates me, there's a spot just by the medalion where something was spilled/placed whatever, dosen't matter what I do it's always lighter, rats..and oh well..
The pain realy is it's an old boy, one withthe nib at the tip and I'd realy like it to be "pretty"..

;-)


----------



## donwilwol

Andy, take a torch and scorch the handle after sanding. You may want to tet to see if you want it scorched even or blended. The sand again starting at a fine grit. Maybe lightly at 220 and up as you normally would. Take care not to take the darkness off.


----------



## Bertha

Man, that 2-JDs handle is gorgeous.


----------



## Brit

Thanks for the suggestion guys. It looks like the saw had been placed on a bench medallion side down and something got knocked over and ran underneath it.

Don - I understand what you're getting at, but I can see it going up in flames after it has just had a coat of BLO. 

You know what, the more I think about it I'm inclined to have some fun with it. The rest of the saw is gorgeous and in really good condition, so it is certainly worthy of a new handle. But before I do that, I think I'll wire wool it with methylated spririt to remove any oil that hasn't dried. Then mix up a dye and give it a try. If that doesn't work, I'll ebonise it. If I'm still not happy with it, it will get a new handle when I've got time. One thing I know for sure is that I can't live with it. Other people might be able to, but I can't.


----------



## RGtools

Andy. I just talked myself out of buying another saw…and you post the shot of two lawyers…

Now I am drooling over this.


----------



## RGtools

Oh crap, they have a sash saw…

Our Sash Saw:

Blade thickness: 0.5mm (about 0.020") or 0.6mm (about 0.024")
Blade Length: 12"-16" 
Cutting depth: 2 1/2-3 1/4" 
Pitch: 9 tpi -11 tpi - rip or crosscut

Shown with the modern spine and a handle of Yew wood.


----------



## need2boat

Andy,

I've read about the use of oxalic acid on wooden rules to help bring them back. Here's a Post Chris Schwarz did on it. Sounds like it might work for you.

JFF


----------



## Brit

You won't be interested in this one then Ryan:


----------



## need2boat

Andy,

That a little over the top don't you think. . .

Joe


----------



## Brit

Thanks for the suggestion Joe, I might try that.


----------



## mochoa

That saw is a little too pimpish for me.


----------



## JoeMcGlynn

Wow, those are some beautiful saws. I'm trying to talk myself down…


----------



## lysdexic

Brit,
I used oxalic acid to lighten up a 24" brass bound folding lufkin ruler recently - a la Schwarz. I was quite impressed at what it can do. It really lightened the wood without bleaching the markings. It's certainly wortha try.I'll post some pics this evening of the ruler and the Tyzack saw.


----------



## Brit

Hey Joe, I rushed out to get some Oxalic acid and although I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen it with my own eyes, IT'S WORKING.

Remember what it was like to start with.










Well here's a progress shot and remember it's still wet too.










I'll post another photo once I've finished and it has dried out.

ZIPPERDEE-DO-DAH, ZIPPERDEE-DAY, MY OH MY WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!!!


----------



## racerglen

AAArrright !


----------



## Bertha

Strong work, Andy. I'll be picking up a jug myself. Hey, the 2-lawyers site claims their saws "start" at 240 U.S. Does anyone know what they "actually" end up retailing? I'm really worried about RG's sash saw, lol. I like the ebonized dovetail saw without the engraving, myself.


----------



## need2boat

Hey Andy,

No greater feeling then helping! I'm glad it worked out. I've got a few handles that could use a cleaning as well.

cheers

JFF


----------



## Brit

Well it won't get finished today guys. It's better than it is in the progress shot now though. I'm going to let it dry overnight, then wash it off 2-3 times with clean water, then give it one more go to see if I can get rid of all traces of it. Wash it again, let it dry completely, give all a fresh sanding and reapply the BLO. Even if it doesn't get any better than it is now, I can live with it.

Al, I bought a proprietary solution by *Liberon called Wood Bleacher*. They wanted £7 for 125ml or £10 for 500ml. Obviously I got the 500ml. It does exactly what it says on the bottle.


----------



## Bertha

Thanks, Andy! I think I've been using the wrong stuff:


----------



## Brit

Yeah but the Liberon doesn't have a Shine Amplifying Conditioner Al.


----------



## Bertha

^very true, Andy. Perhaps I'll use both


----------



## RGtools

Andy.

You are evil and I love it.

That is all.

Ryan


----------



## lysdexic

Here are some pics of the Tyzack. It is actually 14" which makes me consider cancellation my 16" tenon saw order from Bad Axe. I think I will get a few more bench plane restores under my belt before attempting this restore.


----------



## JoeMcGlynn

^^ Except for the sharpening (which I haven't tried) saws seem loads easier to clean up. That one looks like it will clean up beautifully. Maybe block sand the sawplate to 320 or 400, but go up to 1,000 grit on the spine so it's a mirror finish, that would me a nice contrast.


----------



## Brit

That's a beauty Scott. I love mine and I'm sure you will too. There's some nice grain in that handle just waiting to be shown. What is the depth from the tip of the teeth to the bottom of the spine? Just interested to try and find out how much depth they had when new. Mine measured 3 5/8".


----------



## JoeMcGlynn

This keyhole saw finally showed up today, it's going on to Mark at Bad Axe to be filed hybrid. It has a hang hole in the handle, I may try to strip, patch and refinish the handle after I get it back from Mark. I'm thinking us using a plug cutter to make a couple of face grain plugs.

The handle is really comfortable, sort of unbelievably so.


----------



## lysdexic

Brit - 3 11/16"


----------



## donwilwol

Joe, I read your post on my phone earlier and didn't see the picture. I assumed the hole was at the end where they usually are and thought "why not just leave it. Now it makes sense.


----------



## Brit

Yeah I think I would plug that hole too Joe.

Scott - You beat me by 1/16".  Mind you, by the time I sharpen it properly, mine will probably end up about 3 1/2",


----------



## Bertha

Scott, that saw is insane. Whatever lengths you go to restore it, they are warranted.


----------



## need2boat

I've been thinking of picking a key hole saw up but I'm wondering how much I would use it. Can I ask those that have them. How much do you use it and what type of jobs. I'm not a 100% hand tool guy. I still use power for somethings like bandsaw work.

Joe


----------



## lysdexic

Asking for advise on my Bad Axe order:

THe only back saw that I have is the 9" Veritas dovetail saw. But, as you guys know, I've had a 16" tenon saw filed 12 PPI hybrid on order from Bad Axe for quite a while. Now that I acquired the Tyzack 14" rip I am not sure that I need a 16".

I am considering canceling my order for the 16" tenon and getting a 12" x-cut instead.

Would you guys consider getting a hybrid file on the 12"?









Would you stick with the 16" tenon?









Would you drop done a 10" x-cut to compliment the 9" veritas?


----------



## Brit

Scott - It's possible that you won't need a 16" tenon saw if you clean up and sharpen the Tyzack 14". Some people like using big saws, even when cutting a 2" tenon but unless you are planning on making lots of workbenches where you might need to cut a 4" or 5" tenon, you will probably find that the 14" is easier to handle on the majority of tenon cuts you're likely to do. There is enough weight there and once sharpened it will cut fast too.

A 16" would be nice for cutting dados if you were going to do that by hand, but then you would want it sharpened crosscut rather than rip.

Personally, I'm not a lover of hybrid saws. Even one sharpened by Mark will not be as good as a dedicated rip or crosscut saw and a hybrid saw might be a challenge for you to re-sharpen if you want to do it yourself rather than send it back to Mark all the time.

I would probably opt for the 12" crosscut personally to supplement the 14" rip. I wouldn't bother with a 10" crosscut. You can pick up a cheap Zona saw if you want a small crosscut saw with finer teeth. They cut extremely well for the price.


----------



## oldreddog

Thanks for all these tips and photos. this will help me restore a few I have.


----------



## lysdexic

Brit, thanks for taking the time and that is valuable insight on the hybrid file. I hadn't considered how hard it would be to sharpen myself. Really good point (pun not intended).

I had already typed on email to that effect.

Scott


----------



## Bertha

^Andy, I'm a big believer in the cheap thin kerfs like Zona, Silky, and Bear. I number them oldest to newest; hand-cut dovetails get the newest; yardwork gets the oldest. Bust a tooth, bend a blade; no big deal. They're not sexy like the Westerns but a really good value.


----------



## RGtools

The Hybridization of saws confuses the heck out of me. I think of a raker tooth configuration (which would be a total pain to do right on a hand saw). For me and my shop I will say this. I own one saw that I have filed crosscut…the rest are rip filed by hand. I am not a perfect filer, but that's ok, the inconsistencies in my technique always create a tiny bit of randomized fleam…result, my rip saws can be pressed to do a lot of crosscutting chores and perfom quite well.

Has anyone else here noticed this?


----------



## Bertha

^I attempted to file a ripsaw and it was disastrous. I need the appropriate files (and better light).


----------



## Brit

Ok guys, once more with feeling. Let's hear it for Oxalic Acid!!!

Before:










During:










After:










I've got no excuse now, I have to give this saw my 'A' game.

Thanks again guys.


----------



## JoeMcGlynn

wow, that's amazing! Have you sanded that after bleaching?


----------



## donwilwol

NICE!


----------



## racerglen

So Andy..Where's the orriginal one ?
Just kidding, WOW that realy realy worked !
Adding that to the tip file for sure.


----------



## Brit

*JoeMcGlynn* - No the picture was taken after the second application of Oxalic Acid had been washed off with water and allowed to dry. No sanding whatsoever yet.


----------



## Brit

I'll be doing a full write up on this saw on my Saw Talk blog series. It will either be the next post in the series or if not, the one after that. This saw is turning out to be a real gem so look out for it.


----------



## AnthonyReed

Outstanding Andy. That is amazing results. Thanks for the demonstration, you have a gift for saw resurrection.


----------



## need2boat

Andy, That looks great.

Ryan or Andy-

I agree with comment on the Hybridization saws they really don't hold interest unless you were on one of those cooking type speed shows where you have 30 minutes or less to make something by hand.

As to the comment about filing rip and using cross. I've done it, but I've since sharpened a cc I'm happy with and can use it.

I find the saw I use most is my diston 20" d-8 7ppi CC for sizing large stock.

Joe


----------



## RGtools

I have a crosscut panel saw (Disston D-23…in a word, perfect) I need to count the TPI on the thing since I can't remember it for some reason (I think it's eight but it might be higher). I use that and a 4 1/2 TPI beast the most for stock prep.

My comment on using rip for cross would be more in the realm of joinery saws…but it may not be fair to judge this way since all my joints get laid out with a knife and that is inherently what a crosscut saw is meant for….scoring the grain. I think a few test cuts might be in order.


----------



## dbray45

I found that I am using hand saws more and more, may have something to do with electric bill doubling, not sure. Anyway, I now have (and use a lot) a 6 ppi Distton rip and an 8 ppi Atkins cc saws that I now routinely keep sharp and moved to a prominent and very handy spot in the shop - near the workbench.


----------



## need2boat

I can't say it saves me on bills much as I think the heat in the shop is what does the most damage but I keep it at 50 unless I'm in there and space is small enough it only takes 20 minutes at best to get up to 60.

I think the really nice thing is lack of noise. Also for dimensionalizing wood for building hands down it's fast for me. I've got a small shop so I can keep everything ready to go and most things are on wheels and it's way faster then rearranging things.

I'm also forcing myself a bit to use it more for the miter cuts. I can't say at this point it's a big time saver but I SoOO want to reuse that space in my shop that I really trying to make a go of things with out it.

Joe


----------



## dbray45

Al - I bought a dovetail saw fo $10.00, the blade looked like someone tried to use it as a hacksaw - missing teeth, bent blade, bent teeth, the works. Sharpened this four times to straighten the blade, joint the teeth, make new points - all of it. I probably took the blade down a 1/4" when all was said and done.

When I was done, this saw cuts really smooth and for larger dovetails, this is the saw to use. As it turns out, the saw starts out at about 8 ppi and at half way is around 12 ppi.

Saw sharpening is interesting, get engineering dye, a really good light, and a set of 10x or better magnifying goggles or visor - this will allow you to see what you are doing.


----------



## RGtools

David, Dbray I just go cross eyed. x)

Good light is key. And having it in the right spot helps too. I like to position the light so the flat spots on the tips of the saw are reflecting right at me. This helps a ton if you are not using magnification…you need to move your light about 4 times on a panel saw to get it right. On my next (truly first) sharpening station, I intend to have a big overhead light that will do this.


----------



## dbray45

This is where the engineering dye comes in. It is blue and dries flat, makes a great contrast.


----------



## need2boat

I ran out and got a pair of magnifying goggles when I first started after using them I find it really hard to work with them on. I rather use a magnifying light rings and move it down the saw. For teeth higher then 10 I need it and under that I can get away without it.

I find the magnifying light works good for setting the teeth as I can see placement better as well.

As for light placement I find I'm always moving it because I'm trying to keep my file arm square to saw and move my seat a lot.

Are there an South Paw filers on the list? That can be a bit trickier due to the handles on the left and EVERYTHING I've read on the net or watched is backwards, or backwards to me. ;-0

Oh and a black Sharpie works well if you don't have dye.

Joe


----------



## KPW

I have 2 old Disstons. One cross and one rip. One has a loose handle with the screws as tight as possible. Any advice on this or hand saw sharpening would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## JoeMcGlynn

KPW, I haven't tried this, but what about gluing a layer (or two) of veneer to the inside of the slot in the handle? You could just sandwich it with the blade to clamp it, Then trim and re-finish the handle.

As far as sharpening, no clue. I've read a bit and just bought a cheap Disston on eBay to practice on.


----------



## dbray45

Look for the Distton manual on the web. It is worth the time


----------



## need2boat

KPW,

Have the nuts and or screws sunken into the handle and that's why? If so you can do a few things:

-use a thin plastic shim style washer
-fill indentation with wood filler or veneer
-file down the screw so it doesn't bottom out in the "chicago style" nuts and bolt

As for filing there are lots of info on the web. When I first started I found the info a vintage saw help me the most.

Joe


----------



## lysdexic

Brit,
Is there any reliable way to date the Tyzack saw?

Also, for those that are interested, I cancelled my july '11 order for the 16" tenon saw and switched to the 12" carcase saw. I thought this would work out well as Bad Axe has has supply issues with the 16" components. Well, the mesquite handles for the 12" carcase won't be available for at least 3-4 weeks.

C'mon man!


----------



## Brit

Kind of Scott. I have another W. Tyzack, Sons & Turner 14" back saw which will make an appearance on my Saw Talk blog at some point. It is a special edition for Queen Victoria's Royal Jubilee Exhibition in Newcastle-upon-Tyne, which took place in 1887. I don't know how long before and after that they were being made, but I do know that the saws were slightly different in appearance by 1920. Based on the handle features and what I know about how saw handle design changed over the years, I would put it in the range of 1880-1910.

I did a huge amount of research for the Tyzack that I restored and I couldn't find anything that reliably narrowed it down any further than that. What I could have done with was some earlier Tyzack trade catalogues, but I couldn't find any other than one for 1920.


----------



## need2boat

Just to keep the topics changing every few seconds. ;-)

How may of you have taken to thumbing saws when picking up or inspect them. A friend got me doing this and now I can't pick up a panel saw without doing it

You take the saw in your hands pointing the teeth towards your belly. Put 3 fingers through the handle and use your thumb to thump the blade. You left hand is holding the tip of the blade and applying a slight bow to the blade. If done correctly you should hear a note that will be altered but the flexing of the saw tip in your left hand.

I wanted to take a vid of it but I think this gives you the idea. My understanding from talking to a few saws guys is it gives you an indication of the quality of the steel, and what I've found is no two are the same but also how some really sing. The 22" D-8 in my hands has the cleanest sound of the saws I use but it's also one of the newest from around the 40's 50's.









Right hand








Left hand for larger saws








left hand for shorter saws

Joe


----------



## Brit

Thanks for that Joe. I'll be thumping my saws tomorrow.

When I went to Paul Sellers sharpening class, he was doing that with everyone's saws. I asked him what that told him and he said: "I dunno, but it looks good." I agree it does, especially if you cock your head to one side and look serious whilst doing it. Personally though, I think it is an old wives tale. Years ago, when there were serious musicians who played the saw, people probably tried to do it themselves but you can't play a normal saw. Musical saws are specially made for that purpose and cost a lot of money. Check this out:


----------



## RGtools

Yes but can it cut a line?

That is awesome.

I twqng my saws but have the same opinion….it does not say much but is sounds good on on the good saws.


----------



## need2boat

I asked Matt about it when I took his saw sharping class last month and he agreed it's not so much about the sound as it is the sound travels smoothly through the saw. If you can't get a sound or it stops at a point you'll most likely find a reason like a kink. So if I'm at a flea market or tool sale it's the first thing I do, then look at it closer.

Joe


----------



## RGtools

I take a look at the handle first…I am picky about that part (yes I realize it's the easiest part to fix but I like handles that speak to me).Then I check that it's taper ground. If those two things are done right the likley hood is the rest of the saw has a good chance of being a gem.


----------



## AnthonyReed

Taper ground?


----------



## StumpyNubs

The only thing that even comes close to wood planes is hand saws. It's a complex love affair I have, but I am learning to manage…

(The greatest woodworking show mankind has ever known is now online!)


----------



## need2boat

That's interesting about checking for taper ground. That's something I should check more closely for but most of the saws I buy have come from a local tool guy so I'm not paying flea market prices but a little cheaper then ebay.

handles is a good point. I've passed up a few straight saws because I didn't want to deal with repairs or like the feel. I guess we all learn as we go. I've got a few I was better off without as well.

JFF


----------



## lysdexic

RG - how do you check taper ground out in the field? do you carry a caliper with you?


----------



## need2boat

You can normally see the taper in the saw if you stop and look for it.

JFF


----------



## Brit

You can feel it too


----------



## RGtools

Look at the toe. You can see it. It should be a bit thicker towards the teeth than on the spine….some taper from toe to heel as well. Both things you can see if you look closely enough and they have enough of an affect that I wont buy a saw without that feature.


----------



## need2boat

Just wondering, I think all of the saws I have, have taper to some degree. When was it used and not used. It looks like most of the saws I see from 1900-1950's all have it. That said most of the saws I look for are older saws like most of us.

Joe


----------



## donwilwol

I found 2 more pretty good articles on sharpening/restoring that i thought i'd share. I have added them to my reference blog as well.

http://home.grics.net/~weir/saw_restoration.html

http://www.getwoodworking.com/news/article.asp?a=5326


----------



## donwilwol

ok, for those of you like me, who have way to much to learn about saws (I'm just starting to get the plane thing down) here is a good description of tapered ground.

http://norsewoodsmith.com/content/specialty-saws-and-taper-grinding


----------



## Brit

*Joe* - In the days when the handsaw was king, all rip, half-rip, handsaws and panel saws were taper ground. The reason they did it was because with the taper there, you could get away with less set and the saw still wouldn't bind in the cut. Less set means you are removing less wood and therefore the saw cuts faster too as long as it has been sharpened correctly for the task in hand. The other reason was that it significantly reduced the weight at the toe of the saw, thus improving the overall balance. Having more of the weight at the heel of the saw, behind the cut, gives each forward stroke more power. Less downward pressure from the weight of the saw plate means that the saw is easier to start too, being less likely to grab.


----------



## Brit

Phew! At least he didn't contradict me Don.


----------



## donwilwol

I want to be like Andy when I grow up


----------



## Brit

I amaze myself sometimes Don. LOL. A legend in my own lunchtime.


----------



## donwilwol

now I have to go look and see which of my future projects are taper ground.


----------



## racerglen

Andy, a question or two..I picked up this old boy some years ago..









It says "abam ashton & sons ltd. Shefield" 
"sharp, with a drawing of a tooth, followed by 1940 with a crown under the date and below that A.M.









It's had a hard life, the handle's been screwed and nailed as well as glued, but is solid for all that, I'm thinking WW11 military issue ?
I have a Watts, London and Shefield hacksaw with the same crown and AM, but 1941 date.


----------



## donwilwol

so Glen's question is should he send it to Don as is, or give it a good oiling first. (don't want it to rust in transit)


----------



## racerglen

TTThhhppppiiiTTTTT..
;_}
I actualy can't believe how heavy the little buggah is, must be the heavy steel back..
(hhmm, Don could probably take care of it's snaggle tooth issues though, something I work at every now and then )


----------



## donwilwol

we're still talking about the saw….right?


----------



## Brit

Nice bit of history Glen.

Abraham Ashton started saw manufacturing around 1893. The name changed to include '& Sons' in 1919. They worked out of the Burnt Tree Lane works, located at 17 Meadow Street, Sheffield. They were still there in 1925 but I don't know for how long after that. I believe I'm right in saying that the tooth trade mark is a mark of the Burnt Tree Lane works rather than being specific to Ashton & Sons. Glover's patent for the clench screws was registered in 1880, so they fit the period.

I would guess that your saw was probably made earlier that 1942, probably around WW1. I'll see what else I can find out.


----------



## racerglen

Yup the saw..
Having foto issues, wanted to send nuther shot..
(you aren'tthat heavy..are you ? )


----------



## racerglen

Interesting Andy..but what would explain the dates stamped on both the saws ? Old stock that got stamped and shipped in the '40's ?


----------



## donwilwol

seriously Glen, its a cool looking saw. It does look like the teeth need a little more love than my sharpening capabilities would allow. It looks heavy and if sharp like it would be a pleasure to use.


----------



## Brit

That's what I'm trying to find out now Glenn.


----------



## racerglen

I'll be quiet now….

;-)


----------



## need2boat

Glen,

Not sure how much saw plate you have to work with but I'd consider retoothing it or just jointing it way down and starting over. I've been on the hunt for the 14 and 15 ppi ratchet bars for my foley retoother. they were not sold standard it would seem not a lot of people bought them.

Joe


----------



## racerglen

Not much plate there, I have jointed it a fair amount already, but the next step likely is more then refiling as you say..


----------



## need2boat

Well if you go the retooth route just make sure they run a test first. That's what I do to make sure. If you follow the gauge they provided it cuts a good deal off the blade. I've found I can manually adjust it to cut a lot less off and still make clean new teeth.

Joe


----------



## Brit

Crown mark A.M. 1942

Glen - A.M. stands for the Air Ministry which existed from 1919 to 1962 and then merged with other offices to become the Ministry of Defense (MOD).

I found a couple of pieces of pilot equipment which had the same marks and the explanation was that the date referred to the date the item was purchased or became the property of the air ministry or the date that the condition of the item was last checked by the air ministry. For example, a parachute would have needed regular checks.

1942 is probably is the date that the item found its way into air ministry possession. Either that or the last date they sharpened it. LOL.


----------



## AnthonyReed

Thank you RG, Andy, Don for the info on taper.


----------



## RGtools

Tony. I am pretty sure your newest saw has it as a feature.


----------



## racerglen

Andy thats amazing research ! Air Minstrey, who'd have thought.
I guess they could have used a backsaw in building biplanes, the hacksaw's not too hard to figure ;-)

Thanks !
( going back a ways to a much earlier discussion.. I checked to see if Buck & Ryan were still selling tools and yes they are. They're in a move of London HQ now but their web site's still up, And they do carry the Veritas tools..amazing they're still going since 1824..I think a Veritas block plane showed at 130 plus pounds + vat..)
A bit later I'll show off a brass backed Ibbotson gents saw I bought there in '94.


----------



## racerglen

And here he is ..









Nine and a half inches overall, he looked lonely in a mixed tray of tools, I can't remember how much the price was..


----------



## Brit

Glen that a beauty. You wouldn't want to sharpen it though and eat into that lovely etch. I can't quite make it out in the photo. What are the men doing in the etch?


----------



## donwilwol

Glen, that is a beautiful saw. I need to find a saw with a brass back. That etch is great. I think I would have to hang that saw and just "look" at it.


----------



## racerglen

Andy, it's a foundry scene, they're doing a pour of molten metal.
The full script is "George Ibbotson Ltd" in the top arch with 'Made in Shefield England in the bottom, and the middle side etch says "warranted -cast steel"on either side
I'm suspicious it isn't as old as it apears, I think the teeth are stamped, not cut ?
BUT comming from a tool dealer that's been arround that long I guess it's possible, it did come out of a sort of jumble/clearance/end of aisle thing rather than from a bunch of saws on a wall.

Don, it does mostly live on the wall although I just looked closely and the blade coating is untouched from about the middle of the "pour" in the etching, up to the brass back.


----------



## racerglen

A couple of other views, hopefully clearer ?








And then maybe not..Sigh..










I think what these do show is the teeth..stamped ?


----------



## JoeMcGlynn

I got my D8 that I cleaned up back from Bad Axe on Friday. It was a rip saw, but after consulting with Mark (at BAT) I decided to have it filed crosscut and I bought a ripper from him.

I don't have any experience using handsaws, but my initial impression is very positive. I used the saw to crosscut one end of my workbench top yesterday. Cutting through 5" thick stock it tracked easily (as long as I let it) and didn't require a lot of muscle on my part to push it.

I will cross cut the other end of the bench today, and rip the top to the final width using the ripper I got from Mark today.


----------



## Brit

Glen - I think saw plates are one of the hardest things to photgraph without being able to position lighting exactly where you want it and I can't be bothered with all that.

Nearly finished my Disston backsaw restoration now. one more coat of varnish.

Joe - that's a nice saw. Congratulations on putting it back to service.


----------



## RGtools

That is a good crosscutting shore to test it on Joe. Nice looking saw, good to see it put back into service.


----------



## racerglen

Andy, I agree on the lighting issue, killed the flash on my camera from the first shots (thought that was alledgted to be auto in full enhanced light ?)
Then went with my boom lamp and the standard overhead..SIGH….

Waiting on your Disston reveal..It'll likely be "killer" like the rest..

Joe..like, y'all don't mess around with those tests do you..5" stock for a first run ?

Wow..

;-)


----------



## donwilwol

Joe, its a great looking saw, and cutting a 5" bench top….wow!

Andy, looking forward to another gem.

Glen, what's your plan for that saw?


----------



## racerglen

PLAN ?
I need a plan ?

;-)

(oh..and of witch saw dost thou speakest ? )


----------



## JoeMcGlynn

I picked up a second D8 from Mark at Bad Axe when I had him re-sharpen the one I cleaned up. This one is a coarse ripper, 5.5ppt at the toe and 4.5ppt at the heel. It's got the thumbhole grip, and it worked like a champ to rip my benchtop to width.

I've now made exactly four dimensioning cuts with my hand saws (excluding whatever I did as a kid and some recent pull-saw cuts on thin, soft pine). I'm really impressed with how these saws cut after being sharpened by Mark. I've got to learn how to do that myself - in fact I bought a $10 Disston on ebay that I'm going to practice on when it arrives.


----------



## RGtools

Sharpening your saws is a skill that is really worth learning. It's a Zen activity too.

Great pic Joe.


----------



## need2boat

Over the weekend I was back up in RI to drop off a whelping box I build for my Aunts dog that is expecting puppies in the next few weeks. I worked it out with Matt Cianci (writer of the saw blugs) Second class offering on Rehab and Restoration. I will write more about it for those interested but just as before I would say if your in the North East and lean a little better by example you'd love it.

Since I was up in RI Sunday I went to visit a few other relatives and after hearing I was talking a saw class they ran down to the basement and pulled out a few old saws and an old millers falls mitre box. This was really nice as some of you may know I'm still waiting for my saw to come back from Mike Wenzloff and haven't be able to use my box.

The saws are all older distons that need handle repairs and I may try cutting one down now that I learned a bit of smithing. I'll take a few pictures when I get them back to the shop but needless to say it was cool.

Joe


----------



## Brit

Looking forward to hearing about that Joe.


----------



## need2boat

OK, I had the time to write it up and just posted. For those interested and in the North East and interested in all things saws Matt offers some great classes at a great price.

Blog on Saw rehab and Restoration

JFF


----------



## donwilwol

I just read your blog Joe. It sounds like a great class. Thats about 3 hours from me. It may be worth a week end trip.


----------



## need2boat

Thanks Don,

Matt was offering some classes thru CT Valley School of Woodworking which might be a little closer for you but I'm guessing it's splitting hairs on the travel time.

Joe


----------



## Brit

Disston No.5 backsaw restored. I thought I'd post them here as well as my blog because it was this thread that got me to try the bleach on the handle.


----------



## AnthonyReed

Wow Andy! Another masterpiece. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## BrandonW

Andy, that saw looks nicer than it probably did when it was new. Your work is inspiring!


----------



## dbray45

Andy - this is some nice work, great job.


----------



## need2boat

look what found it's way into my hands last night. Met up with a local tool guy who had some older saws he no longer wanted. Most were mid level distons but once home I saw the hammer and new I had gold.

I emailed with Josh of hyper kitten as he's a Harvey W. Peace expert and he thought it would have been made around 1860 and one of the earliest he's seen pictures of. interesting to think in all these years the saw really only traveled 10 or so miles from where it was first made. It's a 20" saw, not set and looks to be filed rip but it's years from sharp although the teeth are all there.

enjoy

Joe


----------



## BrandonW

Sweet score, Need2boat. Now all you have to do is andy that saw and you're ready to go. Yes I used "Andy" as a verb.


----------



## Brit

Mummy always told me, "Do it right son and one day you'll be a verb".

Great score Joe and there's still quite a bit of meat on that saw too. It's a beauty.


----------



## donwilwol

I like the new "andy" verb.

I also like the saw Joe.


----------



## AnthonyReed

Congrats Joe.

Brandon - I like the new verb too. And it is much easier to type than; Restore the saw to better than new condition. Thank you for expanding my vocabulary.


----------



## racerglen

Working on andying the A.M. hacksaw now..
;-)


----------



## need2boat

Thanks guys. I think considering the history behind this saw it will most likely go up on someones wall rather then giving it the Andy treatment..and I'll most likely sell it to someone with more wall space then mine.


----------



## dbray45

Very nice catch


----------



## Bertha

Andy, you're solidly in the big leagues now.


----------



## donwilwol

I tried to sharpen a back saw yesterday. I knew it was bad, but didn't know how bad. I put it in the vise and noticed it was lower in the middle. I tried to sharpen it anyhow and made it worse. Jointed it and to get it straight about the back 3-4 inches had no teeth. Tried again. Jointed again, decided well, might as well start over. I jointed the teeth off and came to the realization I need a new file.

I'm learnin!! I'll be following this when I pick up some files.


----------



## mochoa

Paul Sellers can join a saws teeth all the way off and reshape and sharpen it in like 10min so it can't be that hard. ;-)

Don, I don't know if you have an ACE hardware close to you but the one near me sells a couple of different files that work for saw sharpening. I know they had the one I bought online which was a 6" extra slim tapered file.


----------



## Brit

I've got a huge respect for Paul Sellers and what he stands for, but I think 10 minutes is stretching it a bit to joint, shape, set, joint and sharpen any saw. If Paul ever does a video of this against the clock and succeeds, I'll eat my overalls.


----------



## need2boat

I don't know Paul Sellers but I would guess that's a fine tooth rip saw! as that's crazy fast. I can see how you could do a 7ppi CC saw that fast. ;-)

So far I've only had one really out of joint saw but it was panel saw. I've read out cutting new teeth and talked with Matt about it but it sure looks like it would take a good deal of time and I'm sure you must have to joint and reshape at least once.

Joe


----------



## need2boat

A little eye candy for a wet Monday, here in the NE. I picked these up last week. I'm on the hunt for a beach plane to use for the handle. The local mill to me wants way to much for english beach and they don't have anything over 3/4.

Disston and Son(s) No7








Saw









Handle needs some work and I'm looking for a wood plane to use for replacement parts









Plate should clean up nice









Disston 12. Needs to be cleaned but I think the etching is there









Handle is in very nice shape









I think this may be a Wheeler Madden & Bakewell but the etching is so light its hard to tell. I'll have to spend sometime with a good light.









Handle

Joe


----------



## donwilwol

I thought I had seen a Paul Sellers blog on retoothing, but i couldn't find it. I want to learn to cut new teeth anyhow, now I don't have much of an option. The good thing about it is I can do it on my reloading bench which is in my house, so heating the shop in this sub freezing temps is not an ssue.


----------



## Brit

I've seen Paul filing a saw and he is fast, but we're talking here about filing off all the teeth and starting from scratch. I don't think you could do any saw properly in 10 minutes.

Don - What the hell is a reloading bench?


----------



## Brit

Oh, you mean reloading a gun. I thought you were reloading the dishwasher or something. Doh!


----------



## donwilwol

well, its reloading the bullets, but you got the idea.


----------



## mochoa

Sorry it wasn't 10min, it was 15min, not counting jointing off all of the teeth.

Quote:" It takes me about ten minutes to do a recut like this and then 5 minutes for final shaping, sizing and sharpening."
Still pretty impressive. 
Here is the post:
http://paulsellers.com/2011/12/saw/


----------



## donwilwol

Thanks Mauricio, thats the blog I couldn't find.


----------



## Brit

That I can believe, especially when it is Paul.


----------



## JoeMcGlynn

I started restoring another saw tonight. I picked this one up to practice sharpening on, but looking at it I see that it really needs to be re-toothed. The toothline is totally concave.










If I straighten out the toothline the saw will probably come to a sharp point, instead I'm going to shorten it and make a panel saw. In for a penny…


----------



## need2boat

Joe,

I know you work a bit with metal so your the right guy to ask. How do you plan to cut the saw. That spring steel can be hard. I've read you can file or score a line, then clamp between two boards on the edge of a bench and snap it like glass.

I've got a few saws that need to be cut down.

Joe


----------



## donwilwol

Joe, I have both. An old 8" table saw and an old skill saw I keep a metal cutting blade in just for situations like that.


----------



## JoeMcGlynn

I actually just "trimmed" it.

I sanded it with 400 to remove the worst of the discoloration. I wanted to leave some of the "patina", it's an old saw after all.

I used a stomp shear that is rated for 16 gauge mild steel (full width). It's didn't flinch. I took the minimum I could, and still had 3 little nicks left over from the old teeth. The long off cut is backwards in this picture. I filed the edge and it's ready for teeth. Yikes!

You could cut it with a good pair of aviation snips, just scribe a straight line to cut to first. Or an abrasive cutoff wheel.


----------



## need2boat

well two things I don't own are a stomp shear or aviation snips? I do own a chop saw and I have a metal cutting blade I've used in the past so that may work the best for me.

I don't need to worry about teeth as I could run those thru the retoother. ;-P I want to make a small 20" rip 5ppi.

over the weekend I worked on my first horn replacement. Other then messing up the grain alignment I was happy with rasp work. Now onto glazing, another think I'm new too.










Joe


----------



## donwilwol

Interesting artice at the saw blog


----------



## Brit

That is a good tip Don. I haven't read that anywhere else. Thanks.


----------



## donwilwol

if i had read that a week ago, it may have saved the teeth on my back saw. But I guess I have to learn sometime.


----------



## ksSlim

Thanks for the info, you just saved me a lot of needless rework.
Big boost to my ego, I'm really not that bad at sharpening.


----------



## need2boat

I talked with Matt about this at his last class and and in email, as it's something I've found happens to me on smaller saws. I tend to be filling cc as that what I've been working on but I guess that really doesn't have anything to so with it.

Along with what Matt said for me it has to do with only looking down straight at the tooth line and the flats and not pulling your head away and looking at the plate from the side from time to time. Because it's way easier to see the difference in the gullets that way. Since then I tend to shape in two passes, leaving some flat on each tooth, check the gullets and then go back. Mine are still no way perfect but getting there.

Just wondering is anyone else here file left handed, ie saw handle to the left?

Joe


----------



## Brit

I'm a lefty Joe, or at least I will be when I get to that stage in my saw restoration blog.


----------



## need2boat

Very good Andy,

I just asked as I find as a left handed person filing it's a little harder as most of the people who write about and offer vids or classes are right handed.

You can also tell when holding a filed saw in your hand. If you file all on one side, like Matt from the saw blog or most people, you see the shaping better on the side it was filed from.

Joe


----------



## Brit

Us lefties have got to stick together Joe, so when I get to the part of my blog that deals with shaping and sharpening, it will be from a left-handed viewpoint. The righties can then flip everything in their heads for a change instead of us. After all 13% of the world's population can't be wrong.


----------



## Brit




----------



## racerglen

Andy are you telling the righties to stand on their heads ?

;-)


----------



## Brit

Glenn - I'm just saying us lefties aren't gonna take it anymore.


----------



## need2boat

occupy lumberjock starts here, raise your left hand!

Joe


----------



## racerglen

With you all the way Andy..

Joe, pull that finger back into your palm would you ?

;-)


----------



## RGtools

I want you to know I did a video on this site where I reversed the picture from left to right in order to teach left handed sawing to a kid…god belss technology.


----------



## Brit

Good for you Ryan. I would have expected nothing less from your good self.


----------



## dbray45

Don - if you jointed the teeth completely off, you have a few choices. You can have the saw retoothed or you can do it by hand. When I joint a saw that is really bad, I always leave a touch of the grooves but here it is mute.

Highland sells machinists dye, or if you have a machine shop near you take it there and have them put dye on both sides about 1/4" down.

Using a scratch awl, mark off each groove to 6, 7, or 8 tpi. on one side. Using you triangle file, cut a slight groove to each mark, I usually make one back stroke and one forward stroke.

You have the start, make two good push strokes and go to the next tooth. This takes longer but the results are much better to bring the teeth in the way you want. When you get to the end, go back and start over. You can do this all from one side, basically a rip toothing.

Once the teeth are about 80% check the jointing, are you still straight? If you are, you have to decide if you want CC or rip. I would set the teeth at this point, when done on one side, turn the saw around and do the other.

Now do the final tooth cut, use a new file. If you have the dye available, put dye on it so you can easly see where you have been.

When this saw is done, take your 4000 grit stone and make two light passes down each side of the saw and teeth - this evens out the set so the cut is smooth. Take a trial cut, following a straight line, if it tails off to one side, your set is not even on both sides.

Best way to get good at this is trial and error, once you get the feel of it, you will keep your saws tuned when ever they feel sloppy.

Good luck


----------



## Brit

*Joe* - Are you going to blog about glazing your handsaw handle? Hope so.


----------



## need2boat

Andy,

Sure, I'll most likely write something up. I decided I'd kind of do the next few saws in batches, I worked on cleaning the saw plates and handles this week. mind you this is not a resto ride like yours ;-) but I can do that part in my apt.

Hopefully this weekend I can locate the needed english beach, one of the tool guys ie pickers I know has some transition planes he's happy to part with at a good price due to broken parts. I think they should resaw into all the needed wood. Wood planes seem to be worth penny's in some areas but around me I haven't found a bunch. More of a New England thing. That said if it works out I can glue up the three broken horns and such and hopefully next week finish the handles.

Joe


----------



## need2boat

Joe your on the west coast but if your interested I would be happy to help out with the retoothing. I think if you leave the handle off it wouldn't be bad to ship. I'm in NJ. The first image is a test saw I use to check angle and such the second pic is the retoothed saw.

This all said I agree with what everyone says about practice. I just also think some things are worth more practice then others. I say that as someone whos resharpened a saw over 3/4 times just to practice.

Joe


----------



## JoeMcGlynn

Joe - thanks for the offer, I appreciate it.

My goal with this saw is to learn how to retooth/resharpen more than just getting the job done. The initial teeth I cut aren't perfect, but I think I can improve them as I finish shaping them…and I'll joint it and make more adjustments. It's won't be perfect but I'm pretty sure I'll end up with a decent cutter. I think. Maybe.


----------



## need2boat

Hey Joe,

Just wanted to offer, have fun with it. Progress looks great so far.

JFF


----------



## donwilwol

I'll post more later, but pulled another from the pile. 16" 11 ppi. Restored (semi-Andy'ed) sharpened crosscut and actually cuts.

Before









Now


















Handle is back soaking in the BLO. I had to take it out and put it together to test my sharpening job!


----------



## Brit

Nice restore on that saw Don. So how was your sharpening job? Did you file it rip or crosscut? Rake angle? Fleam angle?


----------



## Brit

Sorry I just read you sharpened it crosscut. I was too quick to drool over the pics and didn't read the text properly.


----------



## donwilwol

Its a different saw than the one I filed flat. I'll get back to that one, but when I started earlier I didn't feel like messing with sharpening. After getting this one up and ready the mood shifted.


----------



## lysdexic

That's a beautiful saw Don. I like the level of polish.


----------



## donwilwol

Now you've got me thinking Andy. I don't think I thought this through. I should have sharpened this one cross cut like a carcass saw, then Sharpened the one I filed flat crosscut.

This is the last one in the saw pile. It has no marking but looks like its built well. Its small, should make another nice dovetail saw.


----------



## Brit

Did you mean to say that you should have sharpened this one rip?


----------



## JoeMcGlynn

I just finished reworking this saw. I ended up shortening it about 2.5" and re-toothing it. It's filed rip, 10ppt. I want more gloss on the handle, but it cuts great. A few more coats of Tried & True on the handle and then I'll wax the whole thing.

I made rip cuts in both 1" pine and 1/2" walnut, it cut straight and left a smooth kerf.

This was a good learning experience, and now I have a great little panel saw. Hand saws and planes, kinda addictive.


----------



## Brit

Funny how so many of us are going through this learning experience at the same time.

Congrats Joe.


----------



## donwilwol

yep, that's what I meant Andy, Should have filed this one rip!.

Nice saw Joe.

Hand saws, planes, braces, screw drivers. OMG!!


----------



## JoeMcGlynn

rut-roh. I hadn't even thought about SCREWDRIVERS yet. What about CHISELS? I'm in big trouble


----------



## Bertha

Don, that 16 incher is fantastic. Like Lysdexic, I like the level of polish; not too much; not too little.


----------



## donwilwol

thanks. I brought the saw inside the house to the handle could dry and get additional coats of BLO.

I got the shorter one in the BLO now. I was surprised the handle was a nicer piece of wood. Its also still very sharp.

Yes Joe, I forgot chisels. I need to find some mortisers.


----------



## JoeMcGlynn

Don, I recently had a tool relapse and picked up these english mortice chisels. I'd still like to find one in 1/8" but it's not critical. I haven't had a chance to clean them up and sharpen them properly and put them to use. I'll be cutting the mortises in my workbench top in a couple of weeks, so it's not far off.


----------



## Bertha

GOODNESS GRACIOUS, JOE! Are those Butchers? They are fantastic.


----------



## JoeMcGlynn

Thanks, yes they are "English mortise chisels", all different makers. Sorby, Greaves, Moulson Brothers and Reaney & Wood. 9/16", 1/2", 7/16", 3/8" and 1/4". I'd like to add a 1/8" and maybe a 5/16 eventually.

I thought about buying the new ones from toolsforworkingwood.com, but they are generally out of stock. Plus I like the feel of using tools that are 100 years old.


----------



## Brit

Nice chisels Joe. The four larger ones are in great shape and the smallest one will probably clean up well too.


----------



## Bertha

^pigstickers are good for a few hundred years, I'm thinking.


----------



## donwilwol

I almost finished up the second and last back saw. The handle is still separated and drying so no pic's until next weekend.

I did some sorting through my saw pile. Here is what I have left that I think is worth restoration. I have a few more but they are probably not worth much.









I also built a tray for evapo-rusting saw blades;










And one more rip that didn't make the photo.


















I've compiled a list that I'll post later. I'd like some help understanding what else I may need or if I should re-cut a few to get a bigger variety of cuts.

I also noticed that the saw I cut all the teeth off is pitted really bad. I may take one of the other saws I have and cut it down and replace the blade. I'd like some thoughts of reasons that may not be a good idea. I could n't come up with any on my own.

To see the rest of my week end, browse over to the Hand planes of your dreams thread.


----------



## Brit

Nice nest of saws you've got there Don. I agree, they all look like they are worth restoring. Are you going to shorten the fourth one down?

I've nearly finished the last 12" backsaw. After that, I've got 3 more 14" backsaws to do. I think I'll take a break from restoring saws before I do the handsaws though. I need to do some woodworking again, so I'll build a saw till for the backsaws and a saw vise and then sharpen all the backsaws up. After that, I might feel motivated to start on the handsaws.


----------



## donwilwol

Not sure Andy, but that might be the best thing for it. I plan to work from the top down.


----------



## Brit

That's what I said to my wife on our wedding night.


----------



## Bertha

^Snare drum x2 and cymbal crash


----------



## need2boat

Hey Don,

That's a nice collection for sure. I've been reordering and starting to work on some of my saws that need handle repairs. I'll post a few pics. As I've gotten better at the process I'm starting to get pickier. The not worth doing pile is getting larger but at the same time I've gotten much better at finding keepers.

As to your question on retoothing, cutting down, and the Pros and Cons.

First off I always think time, money, enjoyment and out come. I don't like to repair something and put the time into it knowing it's just fixed. I want to be happy with the looks and aesthetics of it. Keep in mind that most of the shorter saws hand smaller handles and can kind of look odd with a big handle but again that just aesthetics. Switching out or making a new handle is possible but I'm sure most of you, It's crazy hard to find two handles that match up with hole patterns.

If your thinking of using a retoother or doing it by hand to change out tooth size keep in mind you most likely will loose about the height of the tooth plus a 1/16 or so. So some saw plate work better then others.

I've got a few saws I'm looking to shorten but will most likely just take an inch or so off.

Joe


----------



## need2boat

Looking for advice on wood carving, I've got a few handles that after repairs will need a little leaf work after wards.

Does anyone have some advice on best way to cut them in. Should I use a v-parting chisels. I'm guessing they were most likely done by machine but I didn't turn up much googling.

Joe


----------



## mochoa

Paul Sellers has a blog where he does it with a caving knife but I would think a v tool would work also.


----------



## ksSlim

#3 sweep gouge, 1/2" or 3/8" depending on the rest of the "leaves" on the wood. 
Chris Pye, well lnown carver, has several books and videos that show how to do exactly what you need.


----------



## need2boat

Thanks guys. I will check out Paul's blog and and see if I can find anything on line about Chris Pye. I've already learned they are call leave! Doh, guess I should have guessed that.

I'll share out any links I find!

Joe


----------



## mochoa

Look on Paul Sellars Lumberjocks Blog list, its in there.


----------



## Bertha

^Joe, it might be a good reason to ask your Wife for a CNC, lol. Just trying to do my part


----------



## need2boat

Al, You got the idea. MORE POWER!

JFF


----------



## donwilwol

Joe, WayneC had started carving before he disappeared. you may want to check out his stuff.


----------



## Bertha

^Don, that's how I noticed Wayne was missing. I shot him a PM with a carving tool question and….nothing. I'm holding out hope that he got transferred to Iceland or something.


----------



## lysdexic

Just FYI, I have been using the crap out of my Tyzack saw for the past couple weeks. I love that saw. I haven't the time to attempt a refurb yet.


----------



## Brit

Good for you. I love sawing. Once you have a sharp saw and the proper technique down, it is very therapeutic. Of course I wouldn't want to do 50 of something with a handsaw, but for hobby one-off woodworking I love it.


----------



## Bertha

^tell me more about the Tyzack. I'm unfamiliar with it.


----------



## need2boat

Just wondering if others as they are sharpening new saws are checking the angle of rake? I've mostly been working on cross cut saws but tight started on a Rip saw and it's 3rd of 4th I've done. All 3 had between 5-8 degrees of rake. The first two I filed as they were but this one I shaping back to 0 since it was badly out o joint anyway and will require more then one shaping.

Joe


----------



## dbray45

All my saws are old. A couple were missing more theeth than they had


----------



## Brit

Need2boat - So what rake and fleam do you recommend on a handsaw for cutting hardwood?

dbray45 - Nothing wrong with old David and just like the six million dollar man, you can rebuild them.


----------



## dbray45

Its no fun buying something that doesn't need any work. For me, half of this is taylor making or fixing the toys to work the way you want (this is not the case for everyone but thats ok too). Then you make the goodies with the toys.

Its all good.


----------



## Brit

Amen to that brother.


----------



## need2boat

Andy,

I can't really say I have my own rake recommendations at this point. I've had the chance to try a few of Matts saws and also my own at different rakes and would agree with the common theory. More rake on a rip makes it easier to start, slower to cut.

Most of the older Rip saws I have (about 8) that were machine sharpened were done so with some rake, 5-8 degrees it's but its hard to get a perfect angle on worn teeth. The ones hand filed are around 0-2 degrees.

I guess part of the reason I asked others is. I find it's way easier to reshape a tooth at it's starting angle. I run into the biggest trouble when I'm reshaping to a new angle as it's harder to hold the file at the right angle since it will not be flat to the tooth. This is where I run into the big tooth little tooth problem. Because of this, the first few saws I sharpened I did so at the given angle they started at. I got into the habit of checking so I could make a jig. The other advantage is one they are sharp it will also be easier to change to a lesser angle.

I would like to get to a point where 0 works for me, and currently working on a 7 PPI Richardson Bro saw that I'm filling to 0. AKA a "sawyer" angle. ;-)


----------



## Brit

It is a journey Joe, that's for sure. I often think that only by experimenting will I see what the difference is between various angles and once I know, I'll have to restore some more saws because I would have filed away all the saw plate finding out.


----------



## donwilwol

just stumbled onto this. I thought it was interesting. I may need to "make" a brass back. I can't seem to find one already made around these parts.


----------



## Brit

We always seem to be ready the same stuff Don. I read that a couple of days ago when I was searching in vain for a way to accurately straighten a bent spine. I was interested to see that he inserted the saw plate into the spine until the top of the plate was touching the inside top surfarce of the spine. On all of the old saws I've restored so far, the plate has only been inserted into the spine to a depth of approx. 1/4" and there is a gap between the top of the plate and the inside top of the spine. No idea if that is significant or not, just a throw away observation.


----------



## donwilwol

I figured the saw manufactures only put the back in about 1/4" to save metal, but maybe there was a more technical reason. I would think it would be stronger all the way in, but maybe it doesn't matter.


----------



## dbray45

Without a break, bending the brass evenly would be a nightmare. Hammering it telds to flatten it out unevenly.

You could use thinner sheet brass, bend it over in layers and using tin or tin/silver solder with a fair amount of flux you could create a nice spine. The advatage to this is that the tin will bind to the steel and brass - and adds weight.


----------



## need2boat

Matt talked about it a bit and did a demo on pulling one off and straightening it a bit when when I took his class a few weeks back. In the saws he's worked on, most from US makers they all should have been fully seated. often the brass back saws worlk loose and people may think that was done from the start but at least with the one be brought once we removed the back you could see where had been fully seated at some point.

There was another member of the class that had done a good deal of research and found some of the angled backsaws were not fully seated when made to save steel. but again people dispute it, both ways.

I read something a wile back on backsaw.net when I was looking for info on my Vulcan saw. There are a few members there making there own saws and talked about cutting a slot vrs folding.

Joe


----------



## Dcase

Hey, I need help to ID a saw I picked up this weekend.

I started cleaning it and found the etch but its rather hard to read and I fear any further cleaning will make it completely unreadable. The etch says something like "Cortland & ?od Co. and under that it says Cast Steel Warrented. There are also a few stars etched around the words. No way I could get a picture of this sorry

Also the saw has a nib on it and the handle is attached by very thick steel bolts, not brass. I tried googling Cortland saw and could not find anything. Just wondered if anyone here may know? I can take a picture but I doubt it would help any.


----------



## Brit

Dan - I take it the saw doesn't have a medallion, just three bolts? If it does have a medallion, post a pic of it and one of the whole saw.


----------



## donwilwol

Dan, I think its Cortland *Wo*od Co. Google that, and sift through the "Cortland wood Products" a sawmill thats currently running and you may be able to dig it up. Some of the saws go for some big money.


----------



## donwilwol

Another Dan


----------



## Dcase

Brit, correct no medallion and I think its got 4 bolts. It looks like a rip saw.

Don, I will check those out. Thanks!


----------



## Dcase

Don, that 2nd link you posted of the saw on ebay is the one I have! Mine is the exact same as that one. Thank you for posting that… Looks like its a saw thats going to be worth cleaning. I will post some pictures on here once I got it cleaned up.


----------



## donwilwol

My latest, a "Distton 18 #7 Panel saw. (Not D-7)





































It needs sharpening but the teeth look well formed. I sharpened my RIP yesterday. It cuts much better now.


----------



## donwilwol

It sounds like you found a winner Dan. That looks like a pretty nice saw. Does yours have the finer teeth on the end like the one on ebay? I like that.


----------



## Dcase

No, I don't think mine has the teeth filed like that on the front. The teeth on mine are still pretty sharp though so it should be an easy one to tune and sharpen.

I got the saw in a lot of about 5 that I picked up this weekend. I also got a Disston saw that I am having a hard time to ID. It has a #9 stamped on the blade but it does not look like the other D-9s I have seen. Ill post pics of that one to

Don, that saw looks nice, I like the job you did on the handle.


----------



## Brit

Dan if the #9 is stamped under the handle, it just means that it is, or was originally, filed 9 PPI.


----------



## Dcase

Thanks Brit, I thought that number stamped under the handle was the number of the saw. If thats the case then I really don't know what kind of Disston it is. I will have to get pics up here today.


----------



## Dcase

Here is a picture of the Disston saw I picked up this weekend. Anyone know what type this is?


----------



## Brit

That's a D8 Dan and you make me sick  That would fetch over £100 in the UK once cleaned up. Grrrrrr!!!!

It is an early one with an apple handle. Seriously, congratulations. That is a nice find.


----------



## Brit

I keep coming back to look at it again Dan. I don't think that D8 has ever been re-filed. The handle looks to be in perfect condition too with no damage to the horns. If you believe the hype, the D8 was the best rip saw ever made. Mr Disston wouldn't have got away with that design nowadays though, as it is for right-handed people only.

Dan, you can usually narrow down the date of a Disston saw. Get yourself a magnifying glass and look at the medallion. Carefully compare it to the medallions page on the Disstonian Institute's website from 1880 onwards.


----------



## RGtools

Soon As I saw Dan's saw I thought of you Andy. Sorry Andy.

Dan, that looks a hell of a lot like mine.










Again…sorry Andy.


----------



## Dcase

RG, Sweet we have the same rip saw. I will have to get mine working like yours.

Andy, I don't think it ever was re filed, It still feels sharp and all the teeth look perfect. It also still has the full etch on the blade. Its a little faded but its very clear and readable. I am in process of restoring it.. Here is the handle




























Last picture is after the first coat of finish. I will probably use some finish with an amber tint in it for the next coat. I want the handle darker then what it is in the last picture.


----------



## need2boat

Brit,

The D-8 on this side of the pound aren't that hard to come by. I think the flashy hand kept most of them from getting destroyed. I picked one up this weekend as well but being a left handed person I really don't find the thumb grip that ergonomic although it's supposed to be ambidextrous. I bought it more to trade as you pointed out they are VERY popular. As for using them. I find they cut well although not better then some of there others like the 7, or 12.
Joe


----------



## donwilwol

That's going to be sweet Dan!


----------



## need2boat

Dan that looks like a real nice one.

Are you putting shellac on it. If so you could use a stain over it as a glaze then more shellac on top.

Joe


----------



## Dcase

I put a coat of BLO on it and plan to use Zinnser Bullseye Shellac with Amber tint for the next coat. I use the Bullseye Shellac all the time and the one with the amber tint usually darkens the wood up well for me. I just want it to be a little darker brown rather then golden brown.

Here is another saw of mine in which I finished the handle with the Amber Shellac..









Thats the color I want for the D8 Handle.

I all ready have the blade cleaned up, just need to get it sharpened. I may go to my saw sharpening guy for this one. He has done such a fine job with my other saws.


----------



## mochoa

Thats a nice finish Dan. I'll have to try that one day.


----------



## Brit

Looking good Dan.

Ryan - Don't shed any tears for me my friend. Like Joe, I'm left handed so they are no use to me. One day, I'd like to find one where the blade was still in good shape, but the handle was broken. Then I'd make a left-handed handle for it. Same features, but just on the other side. I doubt I'd be the first to do it.

Joe - I've never used one, but I doubt they cut any better than a lot of other saws by other manufacturers. Old Henry Disston was full of bull like most of the other tool manufacturers of that period. Sure it was the most popular, but then Disston saws were widely available so it stands to reason more people would buy them.


----------



## RGtools

Dan, what TPI are you working with? Mine is a 4 1/2, it takes some getting used to when you start it (I lost a good chunk of fingernail the first time I started mine), but once you get to know the saw it really outshines all the others I have.


----------



## Dcase

RG, I just got that Disston D8 this past weekend. I currently do not have a rip saw that is sharp/usable other then my backsaw.

The teeth on my D8 look really good and it still feels sharp so it shouldn't take much work to file it. I don't know what TPI it is now but I will keep it what ever it is. I usually have a guy sharpen my handsaws for me as hes a saw collector and really knows his stuff. I have sharpened a few handsaws myself and they do cut decent but I still need more practice before I go messing up a nice saw.

The last saw I had sharpened was my 26in Mitre Box Saw and he did such a good job on sharpening it for me. It will slice through a piece of cherry like its butter. When I have the time I am going to buy a bunch of files and spend a week sharpening my lesser quality saws just for the practice.


----------



## Brit

Dan - I thought you said it had a nine stamped under the handle. Being American, Disston marked their saw plates with the Points Per Inch (PPI). PPI is the number of points in one inch including the first point. The English measuring system was Teeth Per Inch (TPI) which is the number of teeth per inch measuring from the bottom of the gullets. There is always one less TPI than there is PPI, so to answer RG's question it is 8 TPI.

However looking at the teeth in the picture of the saw you posted above, I think maybe what you read as a 9 is probably a 6, in which case it would be 5 TPI.

That should be clear as mud


----------



## mochoa

I want one of these big boys for ripping. Does anyone have one of these? Seems like it would be easy to make. The blade is only $9. 
http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/continentalframesaw.aspx


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## need2boat

Yea I think that handle and grip style is a bit P. T. Barnum-ish. I had the chance to hold a Wheeler, Madden, & Clemson with the patented handle and really like it. I'd love to fine a #25 which doesn't have such pronounced dip but nice.

The other issue is I have Med sized hands and find the the saws with smaller grips like the Richardson and sons and some of the early disstons I have fit me better.

I do notice the larger the teeth the bigger the hole in the handle which I also find a little Barnum-ish as well. ;-)

One thing I've heard from some of the saw aficionado like Ron Herman and Mike Wenzloff and think Chris schwarz is you want the weight on a big rip so to cut the Back down isn't that helpful. I'm sure they put it better but you get the idea.


----------



## need2boat

Dan and RG, 
Both of the D-8's I have are progressive teeth and I thought most of the rips of that vintage were. I'll look at mine tonight I thought it started around 6ppi and went to 4ppi.

RG-
What angle are you teeth. I bet that played an issue with your finger. 0 flem is a hard one to start.

Andy I notice I find numbers under the handles on some of the disston's as well, but I think they reference the model number.

Joe


----------



## bandit571

Mine are just run-of-the-mill Stanleys. A couple of backsaws that used to have ugly, black plastic handles on them.









Just some old Oak for the handles, nothing fancy. Seem to fit my hands well enough. Couple of hours in the shop.


----------



## Dcase

Andy, its a 6 or a 9 depending on what way your looking at it. lol I couldn't tell if it was a 6 or 9 because it really could be read both ways. Thank you for that info. I am going to finish the handle tonight and will hopefully have it put back together by tomorrow night.

I have also been working on this bad boy…









This saw was given to me by my dad and I think he got it from a family member. I uncovered the etch on it and its marked Atkins. Its still pretty sharp and leaves one heck of a kerf. I assume this is a cross cut saw but it would make one heck of a rip saw.


----------



## superdav721

Mauricio give this guy a look." http://www.ebay.com/itm/Handcrafted-18-Woodworkers-Bow-Saw-Prem-Fig-Maple-/270883955659?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f11f123cb":http://www.ebay.com/itm/Handcrafted-18-Woodworkers-Bow-Saw-Prem-Fig-Maple-/270883955659?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f11f123cb I know of 2 lj's that have bought saws and were pleased.


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## Brit

Joe - The numer stamped under the handle is definitely the PPI of the saw.

Dan - If you hold the saw with the handle end pointing towards you and the toe of the saw pointing away from you, then that is the correct viewpoint to read the number from. 6?


----------



## Brit

Mauricio - Someone on LJs uses those bowsaws or framesaws. I talked to him about them at one point so I'll see if I can find the name and let you know.


----------



## need2boat

Andy that may have been unclear and this maybe as well ;-) but I was talking about underneath the handle, so you would only see it with the handle removed.

I'm not talking about the number above the tooth line, but below the handle, yes that's for the amount of teeth.

Joe


----------



## Brit

I'm with you now Joe.


----------



## need2boat

Any idea what they are for Andy.

I was think they may have put something there to keep track of what the saw plate was planed for before the handle or etching was done.

Not all the saws I have, have one but the Richard and Sons and some of my older disstons have them.

Joe


----------



## mochoa

Thanks for the link Superdave. But that is more of a joinery saw. The one Highland has is a big mamojama, 27" long 5tpi. You could set your board flat on the bench between two bench dogs and rip overhand using both hands. That is once my bench is built….


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## Dcase

Andy, in that case yes, it is a 6. Thanks for letting me know. I was not sure what way to read it. The other saws I have with a number down there are all 8's which can also be read either way. lol


----------



## RGtools

Mauricio. I have that saw. It is phenominal. Those saws are VERY well made by a german company called ECE. (PUTCSH makes good ones too if you can find them). What I like about the saws is you can get one frame and several blades to do a variety of work (as long as the blade length matches). They are a bit more fussy about set up though, you have to get the tension right as well as make sure the blade is not in twist when you use it (a small set of winding sticks for this is a major help), as a result I use mine when I have a LOT of resawing to do…if it's just a few cuts I go for the panel saw I pictured above.

I occasionally use it on a bucksaw frame for crosscutting firewood too…until I find something like Dan's. Dan check out Roy underhills book, working with wedge and edge…he has some really good info on sharpening that particular type of saw.

Thannks for the clearest PPI to TPI comparasin I have ever heard Andy. My saw would be 4 1/2 PPI then…sorry.


----------



## Brit

Joe - I'm not sure what that number means. Let use know if you ever find out though.

Mauricio - It was that Ryan bloke who has that saw.  Phew now I'll be able to sleep tonight.


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## donwilwol

When I was a very young teenager, I cut my first few cord of firewood with a buck saw. Since then I've gone for the 2 cycle kind. I do still split it by hand. My wife is bugging me to by a splitter, but we'll see.


----------



## Brit

Mauricio - I want a couple of those bad boys too. I might just buy the blades though and make the frame myself. So if you buy one, take it apart and do me a set of dimensioned drawings please.


----------



## need2boat

Anyone bought the PDF of Saw Makers of North America by Erv Schaffer being sold on vintagesaw.net. I was just wondering if it's a scan of the book or a digital copy.

Joe


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## BrandonW

Here are a couple of saw restores-not quite Andy work, but I did put forth some effort. The first is a Bay State saw whose plate appears to be cut short since the etching isn't centered.










The second is a Jackson back saw I just scored on Ebay.


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## Brit

Nice work Brandon. How are your arms and shoulders today then? They look gorgeous. Have you sharpened them yet?


----------



## willy66

Thanks for all the input guys… I was checking out the idea for the slot mortiser as suggested by most of you. I came accross the Woodhaven 6000. Was wondering if anyone has used this, or if anyone has heard nything about it. It falls into my price range, so it is a possibility.

Here is the link I found:

http://www.amazon.com/Woodhaven-6000-Horizontal-Router-Table/dp/B004BUGVLC/ref=pd_sim_hi_1

Would love to know what everyone thinks!


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## BrandonW

Thanks Andy. Haven't tried my hand at sharpening yet. The backsaw is relatively sharp though, but learning how to sharpen them is one of the next things on my to do list.


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## need2boat

I had a few saw plates out yesterday getting ready to clean and took a few picture of the stamps under the handles I was talking about









Later model Disston No 7









Richard and Sons


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## RGtools

Joe. I had missed your question about the tooth angle. 0 rake. I am used to it now though.


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## need2boat

Brandon,

I like that stub noise saw from Bay State. I'd say your correct on thinking it's cut down. What's the current size as cut 18" or smaller.

Joe


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## donwilwol

Brandon, the stub nose is a cool looking little devil. The back saw looks a lot like the last one i did. I get why you don't go as far as Andy. I'm not sure how he does it. I think he photoshops them before posting.

Just kidding Andy


----------



## need2boat

Here's the D-8 I picked up last week. It's 5 ppi at the heal and gains 1 or 1/2 PPI towards the tip. The handle looks to be in good shape and I think the etching will come out with some cleaning.

I built this rack over the weekend as I needed a simple place to store then while on deck for filing. In talknig with Matt and others the simplest is often the best. Hanging them from the handles keep the blades from bending and out of harms way.










Joe


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## Brit

Nice one Joe. The only thing I don't like about that method of hanging saws is that the saw nuts and bolts can scratch the adjoining handle. Of course it doesn't matter if the handles are old anyway, but if you've refinished them, you don't want to scratch them up again. At least I don't. 

I've been kicking around loads of different ways to store saws recently as I'm going to make some storage for my backsaws once I'm through restoring them all. Chris Schwarz did a blog post on storing saws which shows some design variations.


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## need2boat

I went down this road myself and made a saw till in my shop but at this point I've got WAY more saws then I can store in it plus many are just for parts or give aways. At first I would pull the handles and nuts but then decided the easiest way is to just hand them deal with them as needed.

I though about the handles touching myself but I'm not so sure that in practice its that big of an issue even after you refinish the saw. The nuts are brass and will be polished, the wood should have a somewhat durable finish, I put a 5 degree angle on the dowel so the weight is 95% downward. I think for short term a till is the way to go but if your just storing hanging is the best as the blade is under no stress so bending isn't an issue.

The other issue with the saw till is on most you lay the saw with the blade inward at an angle. With Panel saws this is no problem but I find with heavier back saws like a lager tenon saw it's a bit trickier to remove and place back into the till so you end up making a slot for just that saw.

If I had the room in my shop I go with something like this:









Joe


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## Brit

That is definitely the coolest way to store your saws, but what a lot of wood!


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## need2boat

What if you used a french cleat at the back with a skirt that goes down about 6-8 inches and leave the rest open. So using the picture you would cut out the pedestal. Still kind of a space hog but with a few saws removed it would make a good writing desk.

Joe


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

I really like that "Saw Case" graphic. Seen it before, and wanted to build something like it then, too. Truly a gentleman's way of storing saws, I think. Now to ramp it up to handle back saws, keyholes, rips, crosscuts and the various dovetail saws (open handled ones in particular) and you've got something…


----------



## Brit

You'd really have to get to know your saw handles though, so you knew which saw to pull out since you can't see the teeth.


----------



## need2boat

Well you could label the slot by PPI or better yet name all your saws, LOL.

Speaking of saw tills. I'm looking for a good way to travel in the car with them. Anyone have a simple design they find works well. Looking to build someone open top with a handle.

Joe


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Most names right now would fall to either "Dull" or "Sharp" for my saws, I'm afraid…


----------



## donwilwol

Smitty, I think mine are dull and duller. I still haven't ordered my files. I know once I get them I'll have no excuses.


----------



## Dcase

I finished restoring my D8. Only thing left to do is get it sharpened.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Wow, that's nice… I'd like one of those, please!

Congrats, excellent job Dan!


----------



## SamuelP

Nice Saw Dan!


----------



## Brit

Beautiful job Dan. Don't forget when you sharpen it that the toothline on a D8 has a slight crown. It shouldn't be jointed straight. You probably knew that anyway, but I just thought I'd mention it.


----------



## donwilwol

Nice job Dan. I'll be looking for one of those in my travels.

Andy. I don't know if Dan already knew that, but I didn't, so thanks for mentioning it. Make sure you remind me again when I finally find mine , you know how i forget.

I was just looking at the handle again Dan. That came out really nice.


----------



## SamuelP

I had to come back for another look. I want one too. That could come in handy.


----------



## Bertha

Whoa Dan. She's magnificent.


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## Dcase

Thanks guys!

Don, I spent a lot of time on the handle. It was more of a challenge due to the thumb hole. I first sanded with regular sandpaper and after it was sanded with 220 grit I switched to abrasive pads. The abrasive pads are much more flexible the paper and can get into the tight areas much better. They also will leave a very smooth surface. I finished it with a BLO and Shellac with Amber tint.

Brit, I didn't know that, if you recall I didn't even know this was a D8 until you guys told me LOL. I am going to have a guy sharpen this saw for me. I know someone local who collects saws and knows them very well. He has sharpened a few of my saws and I couldn't be happier with his work. I have sharpened a few saws myself but I need more practice before I try sharpening a nice saw like this.


----------



## Brit

Dan - You've got to do it in order to get the practice though.


----------



## BrandonW

Joe, the size of the cut-down Bay State is 20". Anybody know anything about that saw company? The medallion was a warranted superior, which may or may not be original. I didn't even know there was an etching until cleaned it up. It was only $4 at a pawn shop and the owners were quite surprised that someone bought that old thing.


----------



## Dcase

Very true Andy, very true. I just want this one done right so it will perform to its best. Its not a good saw for me to practice on. I have a dozen or so misc handsaws in which I plan to file myself to get the practice.


----------



## need2boat

Dan,

Saw looks great. Please ask you guy what he thinks of the crowning of rip saws. I'm guessing he will either joint flat or just leave it VERY little.

I kind of get why you might crown a saw, It might make it a bit smoother while sawing, once in motion and it may help get the saw started but it just seems inefficient. I would think the progress teeth would have the same effect.

Whats Ron's Herman's saying about teeth on a saw "every soldier has a job to do"? or something like that.


----------



## need2boat

Brandon,

I know a little, I was researching keystone saw works, as I have a 14" K-1 Back saw and came across a few reference to it. It was bought by simonds and was a secondary line much like the Keystone was to Disston. From what I read it was common to use warranted superior nuts were also made at some point I think by Disston as well.

Joe


----------



## donwilwol

I've sharpened a few saws now, and they come out good, but if I had a local guy who would do it for a reasonable price I would lethim. For some reason its a job I dread. I would happily restore a crusty old plane in trade every time.


----------



## bandit571

When sawing by hand, I was always told " You bought the whole blade, use the whole blade!"

No wonder all those "toolbox saws" got so popular with some people, less blade to move back and forth.


----------



## Brit

Guys - The slight crown in the toothline of the D8 works hand in hand with the natural cutting action of the arm and the 'hang' of the handle. The 'hang' is the angle between the grip and the toothline. If you hold the handle with a 3-finger grip and point your index finger down the side of the handle, you will see that your index finger points to the toothline just in front of the crown. As your arm moves forward in your cutting stroke, you deliver the most power as your forearm and upper arm form a right angle. At that point, the toothline will be just before the crown in the cut. All of these elements combine to form the aggressive part of your stroke and you will find that more material will be removed as the saw moves through the crown.

Boy that sounded convincing didn't it?


----------



## RGtools

Well put Andy. I crown my bigger saws a bit too. The easiest way I know is to take a stopped pass or to with a mill file on the ends of the blade and then to take full length passes with the file (not unlike what you would do if you where trying to create a bow in a board with a plane). I then file until the points meet.

But here is a question….how much crown, and how do you measure it?


----------



## need2boat

Interesting Andy. I will have to look around and see what I can find on the topic. If I'm understanding correctly the amount of crown would very a little depending on how you hold the saw but over all it would be very little.

I do have a holder for my retoother for crowed saws but I've yet to really use it as most of what I've done is CC.

Joe


----------



## Brit

Guys you've got to remember that I'm a software consultant, so I bull******************** for a living. LOL.

Seriously, I've yet to compare a freshly sharpened crowned saw with a freshly sharpened un-crowned saw. Personally, I suspect that if a saw is sharpened correctly, it will cut well - crown or no crown.


----------



## ksSlim

Some older saw discriptions included "belly" numbers. Straightline the saw at tooth line, measure height of belly.
Calculate % [Length of saw (point to point)/height of belly]. Many saws meant for the boat building trade were in excess of 0.5%. As noted before, saws with belly increase efficiency of the worker. Ship/boat builders usually worked with thicker materials and were paid or hired according to production and many times cut their own material. Makes sense to me that if, I can saw more longer, thicker lengths with less effort, I should have a saw in that configuration. Vairiable rake on a rip saw?


> How much fleam on a crosscut


? I'm still trying to figure out the correct answers.


----------



## need2boat

Well I've got 2 Disston No 7 on deck to sharpen, one for sure has the crown or breast still in it. The other I would say had it jointed out. I'll try and leave it the best I can and still joint it and let you know. Should be a good test as they are about the same saw. One had the tip trimmed back 1/2 inch or so and they are not the same years but they are both "& sons" with progressive teeth.

I tend to pull the handles, clean & raise the etch a bit,, sharpen then fix or refinish handle. The next few on deck needed horns so handles fixed so it's been slow going as I can't do that in my apt.

Joe


----------



## Brit

That would be an interesting test Joe. Same number of strokes in the same stock with the same effort and measure the length of the cut.

I've been shaping a lamb's tongue today. I got it done, but boy I had to concentrate hard. It got to the point where a single swipe of the file could mean the difference between perfection and scrap, so I told myself to quit while I was ahead. It will be on the next backsaw in my blog series sometime at the weekend.


----------



## need2boat

Yea the lamb's tongue handles are the hardest parts to fix and replace. I think sometimes it's better to put them down, then take a look in a little wile rather then over doing it. So hard to say STOP.

I can't wait to see it. I really wanted to work on my handles last weekend but I needed to finish up a whelping box for a friend and a table top vise for me. I want to start practicing my dove tail more and this should allow me to do it in my apt.

Joe


----------



## racerglen

Disston D-100, Made from 1961 to 1966


















one posting I saw said Henry would roll over in his grave to see his signature on these things.

All I've done is to clean up the aluminum and touch up the wood, the blade's a real pitted mess, can't find an etch so far, but it has just been hanging around for a decade or more.
I did try it out at one point, the ballance is off, despite the aluminum, all the weight is at the back, and the way the wood's attached leaves a sharp (painful) gap at the top inside the grip.


----------



## Brit

A piece of history? Yes Glenn.

A quality saw? No.

In my next blog post Glenn you'll get to see what I think of the saws that were made from the 60s onwards.


----------



## racerglen

Oh, that should be "interesting" !
The first hand saw I bought was an anonymous Disston from a big box retailer in the early 70's, still got it
but I'm not sure why..never cut right from day 1 and lost it's edge quickly.
I did try to sharpen it once, for "old times sake"..YUK..

My dad and grandfathers old boys, mostly Disston as well, are a true "cut" above.


----------



## donwilwol

Glen. Its a different looking thing. It doesn't even look balanced.

Andy, looking forward to your 60+ commentary.

I still love scrolling back and looking at Dan's D8. For some reason that handle is mesmerizing. Just the right sheen!


----------



## RGtools

Andy. I can summarize the 60 plus thing…they are made to convince people to buy circular saws.

KsSlim….how much fleam? The books say about 20 degrees. I think you can play with it a bit more than that. I use a rip saw for most of my crosscutting tasks, but do do that I have relaxed the rake a bit more than usual (10 degrees) and I have introduced a tiny bit of fleam (up to 5 degrees but no more than that) the result is a saw that performs well (not ideally) in both rip and crosscut scenarios (this is on my 15 ppi dovetail saw that I use for just about everything).

I think you should go all the way and have dedicated panel saws for ripping and crosscutting though.


----------



## need2boat

RG,

There''s is lot of truth what your saying but doesn't it just come down to things like efficiency and time. many people just use one plane for everything, some say you need 3 or more. The bottom line is you've made a trade off and I agree. I have a 14" back saw that I've made into a cross saw, its a cross between a crosscut and rip. I find it works well for 1st and second class but will tend to go with a dedicated saw for 3rd class stuff.

Don stop looking into the light! it will blind you!

I wonder who at Disston designed that handle, my votes for some oneof Italian descent. It's just got that style. ;-)

Joe


----------



## racerglen

Joe !
I just figured it out..
the d-100 is the illigitimate ofspring of the Millers Falls Buck Rogers series of planes and such !

;-}


----------



## BrandonW

Glen, you're right! That totally has the buck rogers look to it. I'm sure that saw is a nice collectors item.


----------



## racerglen

Brandon, it's got it's own solo hook on my wall, just like my D-8, BUT it's realy not a user.
I just keep getting distracted by these threads, start working on a plane, my 45's in peices on the resto bench, and I find myself polishing aluminum, taking my fiberglas detail pen to the D-8's medalion, well, you know..
FOCUS GLEN, FOCUS !

;-)


----------



## need2boat

This is a No7 I picked up from a friend last weekend. The handle needed the horns replaced and he already had a number of rip saws and didn't want to deal with it. Since the handle was already removed I moved it forward in the growing pile.

I think some call these "peg teeth" although they do look to have a little fleam to them. I bet they must cut real good. ;-)

I considered running it thru the retoother but I then decided to joint it down to the gullets and shape new teeth. It's an almost full saw plate so it's worth the time.



















Joe


----------



## donwilwol

i totally dislike the looks of the Millers Falls buck rogers line, but boy I'd love to own some.


----------



## racerglen

Don I agree, but so far all I have is an eggbeater drill..


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Question for this esteemed panel: Is the handle of the D-12 unique, as in did others copy the look? There's a D-12-looking saw at a flea market with $1 on it, but it is very rusted and the handle is missing a horn… I think I'll go get it today. Thoughts?


----------



## Bertha

Joe, that's a crew cut. I can't wait to see the teeth form.


----------



## racerglen

Smitty !
Buddy…for a buck you'd at least have some quality scraper material !

;-}
Oh and brass medalion and handle bolts too.


----------



## need2boat

Smitty,
Are you talking about the detail at the bottom on the swan neck. I think the No 12, 112, and the later, D-12, and D-112 all share that style of handle but I'm sure it changed a little over the years.










Joe


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Joe - yes, that extra out-curve in the handle (swan neck? didnt' know it had a name!) is what this handle has. I'll go get it. Heck, the tub said 6 for $5.00, so maybe I'll grap more. Stay tuned…


----------



## need2boat

Bertha,

In the past I would end up joining and shaping a few times, but after talking with some others it was pointed out why not just take it way down and do it once. The issue being when changing rake angles it can be a real struggle to keep the file from hopping around since it doesn't fit well. Bringing it all the way down I'm told will help reduce that I'll let you know how it goes.

Joe


----------



## donwilwol

I've made up my mind, if its got brass nuts and its a buck, its coming home. As a matter of fact, $2 or $3 will do as well. I'm tired of scrounging and trying to fix the things, and they are expensive trying to buy new.


----------



## Bertha

Joe, makes sense to me. It seems like it'd be easier to gauge when you'd file deep enough (because a point would form, lol). I've only tried to sharpen one saw so far and it was a disaster. It was actually pretty fun though, with some nice tunes going in the background. I even made handles for my little files. There's an antique store in town that has tons of saws (but not much else). They're a bit highly priced but once I know what I'm buying, I'll get on the sharpening wagon.


----------



## RGtools

I am such a cheapskate. I use wine corks to handle my saw files (a mushroom cork from a champagne bottle works the best).


----------



## Brit

I've done that Ryan. It also means that if you're ever sharpening your saws at sea, they will float if you drop them in the drink.


----------



## Bertha

RG, measure the tang of your files. I'm always looking for an excuse to fire up the lathe and kill some offcuts.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Here it is, along w/ a second one that will donate it's medallion. One buck each.


----------



## donwilwol

I sharpened my Panel saw today. Needless to say, I'll be making another attempt. It cuts like its sharp, but pulls. After sharpening and setting the teeth, i tested it. It pulled inside terrible.

Back inside I go. After careful examination i thought one side was a little off. I hit that side once more. It didn't seem to change.

More careful examination. It looked like the set was only set on one side.

Back inside.

Re-set the bad side.

Back out to test. Now it pulls to the outside. I'm done for the day!


----------



## lysdexic

So that is a D-12? I don't understand why they are so valuable.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Neither do I, so it's worth right now is set a $1…


----------



## bandit571

Two backsaws with new handles, and a good clean up









may not be a L-N, but they are sharp


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

"Sharp fixes everything!"


----------



## Brit

Smitty how long is the saw plate on the one with the carved handle?


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Full toothlline is 26 1/2"


----------



## need2boat

Hey Smitty,

The top saw is a D12 sharpened to a ship point but the bottom one one is a D-8 that has the older No 7 style handle. Not all D-8's came with the finger hole.

Personally I like this grip better for the two handed rip.

I think the 12's are worth more in part because they cost more when new, plus the bling, of the apple handle and some had the higher end steel.

Joe


----------



## Bertha

^the apple handle is pretty darn cool.


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## racerglen

My D-8









The only thing I can figure with the gouges out of the handle is someone years ago cut a previous owners name or initials out.








But the blade, dispite the rust, almost looks like it's never been sharpened. It has the belly, or curve.









The ruler is touching at the tip of the blade, but the curve holds it out from the handle end..









Something new to me, at the back of the blade, near the 6ppi or tpi mark there's a "peg" tooth, an unsharpened bit that sticks down lower than the actual teeth. 
It's visable in the second handle photo
This guy's been hanging on the shop wall for years, the only thing I had done was to clean and polish the medalion.
Now, sigh, another project
;-)


----------



## lysdexic

My order from July 19th, just shy of 7 months ago, finally arrived today and thought I'd share.















































__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content











__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content










The handle fits perfectly. It is a large. Regardless, now that i have read Andy's blog I think that I'll reshape it. ;^)


----------



## need2boat

lysdexic,

congrats, I've read he makes some awesome saws so enjoy it.

Joe


----------



## need2boat

racerglen,

I agree that's a strange place to file into the handle. Who knows the stories these old saws would tell if they could talk

Joe


----------



## lysdexic

Also, I can't remember if it was here or the saw blog, but some one was discussing whether the saw plate should sit all the way into the back. There was some discussion of trying to save steel at the expense of stability.

Well, on my Bad Axe saw the plate only goes into the back about half way. Just FYI.


----------



## BrandonW

Beautiful saw, lysdexic! Worth the wait?! On the saw sitting in the back, my jackson saw that I recently refurbished also only sits halfway into the back. I thought it was dislodged, but it looks right since that's where the handle cutout suggests it belongs.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Wow, Scott, That's Beautiful! Can't wait to see the cuts that roll from that work of art. Congrats to You!


----------



## lysdexic

Thanks. It really is a gorgeous saw. The handle is mesquite and that is the thing which pleases me the most. The handle feels perfect - just perfect. I credit Mark for that because during some conversation he asked me to measure the width of my palm. From that he determined that I needed a "large" handle. In fact, the handle was one of the delays.

Was it worth the wait. Sure, I guess. I haven't had a cross cut saw for 40 odd years so what's a few months. Now I'll have it for generations ideally.

The real question is whether I would order from Bad Axe again.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

If you knew it'd be seven months on this one, up front, would you have purchased?


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

How 'bout some bowsaws? The one with the most promise is the one that has a solid rod vs. twine/rope to tension the blade (man, I don't even know the parts of these saws by name… so much to learn).


----------



## Brit

Glenn - That D8 is a nice project for you. We await the unveiling in about a week's time. 

Scott - That is a gorgeous saw. Definitely worth the wait. How does the handsaw cut not that you've got it back?

Smitty - Nice bowsaws. I've still got to go down that slippery slope. I've bid on a few, but haven't been successful.


----------



## donwilwol

Smitty, the solid rod or twine/rope to tension the blade is called the tightening thingy.


----------



## racerglen

Oh Andy..
Ye of much faith..I did manage to get some acumulated grime off the handle yesterday ;-)
And a couple more pieces of my 45 cleaned up..
maybe I should shift to the D-12s, or perhaps go back to the Air Ministrey saws, or….....
There's a bladeless old bowsaw frame for 18 dollars at my fave shop..


----------



## Bertha

Holy Moly, Scott. That thing is absolutely incredible. The materials choice was spot on. Even the guard is beautiful. I like the palm swell too. Really a gem.


----------



## RGtools

Scott. That is a beautiful saw and the handle is finer than the pictures on Marks' site seem to show….I want a sash saw from him.

Al I might have to take you up on the offer. Sharpening a saw after downing a bottle of champagne is a real challenge. I still need a lathe.


----------



## Bertha

^Measure em up, RG. I've got tons of gorgeous small stock lying around. Plus, I could use a break from this milling


----------



## RGtools

I have to replace some of the dull ones soon….where do I measure?


----------



## Bertha

I could always make the handles undrilled. Then you could drill a hole to accept the tang. Just bang it down in there like a typical tang chisel. I'll start putting a few together.


----------



## Brit

When I did my engineering apprenticeship, if I remember correctly, they told us to measure the width of the tang halfway up the taper. Then drill a hole in the handle equal to that size. Then heat the tang until it's too hot to touch, and push the handle on. There'll be all kinds of smoke and smells, but burning it into the hole means there's no risk of splitting the handle.

If a handle ever comes loose, rap the file end on the bench (not the handle) to tighten it.

Just sayin'


----------



## JoeMcGlynn

Lysdexic - I've had Mark re-sharpen two saws for me, and bought two other old saws that he's already tuned up. All of those we fairly quick turn-arounds, less than two weeks from me shipping the saw out until I had it back. I couldn't have hoped for anything faster.

The wait time for a new saw is a bit of a bummer. I'm on the queue for a tenon saw already, and he told me 14 to 16 weeks. I'd really like to get a thin plate dovetail saw from him, I know if it was a 3 week wait I'd have ordered it without a second thought. A 3 month wait is too long for me. 7 months is a little nuts, although I can empathize with the supplier problems he's had.


----------



## Bertha

Rome wasn't built in a day, right? I guess that kind of quality generates interest which generates orders which commands time. I figure it's better to wait on a 1-off than get a mass produced tool quickly. My lack of delay-of-gratification would seriously get in the way, though. 
.
Andy, that makes total sense about the tang.

I made this little guy for one of my saw files but I bent it, oops.


----------



## need2boat

I don't know guys I know they aren't free but the handles from Tools for working wood, are the type with the metal threads so they can be sued on more then one file, I find I use 3 handle sizes for all my files so I think your talking 6.00-7.00 plus shipping. I really like the threaded insert type handles they tighten down really nice and i can reuse over and over.

Joe


----------



## Bertha

^the man do have a point.


----------



## lysdexic

Bob at the Logan Cabinet Shoppe did a podcast on rehandling tang chisels. It is long and thorough. Here is the link and it is #35. My browser at work wont open the page to paste the actual link.

http://www.logancabinetshoppe.com/podcast-tools.html

If I remember correctly, Andy is correct about the measurement of the tang. I could be wrong but Bob does dicuss this.


----------



## lysdexic

I have no problem with delayed gratification, neither does Al for that matter. Our choice of vocation is proof. That being said I was not "angry" with the wait. But it did bother me otherwise I wouldn't have bitched about it to you guys.

If developed a need for another saw: say a dovetail or an 18" roubo beastmaster…...I would

scour ebay
check out LN
but probably order from Bad Axe

in that order.


----------



## lysdexic

Of note there were 2 saws in that package. the other was a D-8, thumb hole, 5 1/2 PPI, rip that I had ordered some time ago.


----------



## AnthonyReed

Scott - Picture or there was only one saw in the package…


----------



## Bertha

*rehandling tang*
That sound a lot like sloppy seconds, Scott.
Like I told you several times, no thank you.


----------



## Bertha

Quick question, Scott. If you spent the evening working on your Diston D-8, would that qualify as a "D-ATE" night?


----------



## need2boat

lysdexic.

I feel the same way about Wenzloff. I love the saws I got from him but I'd think twice before buying another. I ended up writing him letter (first one I've done in years) since he wasn't emailing or calling me back.

He's still has my Disston mitre box saw, and at this point I replaced and sharpened myself. I still have a feeling it will show up in the post someday.

Joe


----------



## Brit

The problem with these boutique saw makers is that they just can't meet the demand. It really isn't acceptable in this day and age to have to wait more than 4 weeks for a new saw in my opinion. They just don't want to take on and train new employees it seems to me and don't believe anyone else can do it as well as they can. That's rubbish because they can. They also waste time doing things like maintaining their own websites. What they should do is concentrate on their core business and sub-contract all of that to a web professional. Every time I go to Wenzloff's site, I despair because it still isn't finished and it has been like that for ages. I keep hoping they will have restocked their saw nuts that have been out of stock for months. They probably have them in stock but haven't updated the site. It simply isn't good enough in this day and age. You have to get ahead of the game and keep some stock. If, like Bad Axe, you want to offer lots of different options, then you should have those options in stock and re-order the components way before you run out of anything.


----------



## JoeMcGlynn

Andy, I agree.

But I've been in the same boat myself, I have a "boutique" business myself. There are always a thousand things to do, between making the parts, filling orders, paperwork, web site maintenance and on and on. Unfortunately there generally isn't enough money to pay to have some of these things done. But having an inventory, either of completed parts or at least completed components, is crucial.

It's totally a balancing act. Starting and running a small business-especially one that makes high quality made-in-the-USA goods-is a hard row to hoe.

If the vendor can tell me up front what the wait is, and then delivers on that schedule then I can make an informed decision and decide whether I want to wait or not. If they don't return calls and don't deliver when they say they are going to then that is inexcusable.


----------



## ksSlim

Doh, Homer moment, there's a guy in Wichita that holds a mini clinic in how to make your own saw.
dovetail, tenon or whatever.


----------



## lysdexic

Al wrote:

If you spent the evening working on your Diston D-8, would that qualify as a "D-ATE" night?

Really? ......... Seriously? : ^ )


----------



## Brit

Scott - I think with jokes like that, he's cruisin' for a bruisin'. Then again, he is a firearms instructor. VERY funny Al.


----------



## lysdexic

Tony these are the only pics that I took thus far. I wasn't feeling too industrious last night after my travels. I need to investigate this saw further. I need to date it, look into the "anodized" saw nuts. Also, the shape is subtley different than other D-ate thumb-hole handles that I have seen.


----------



## lysdexic

Right now I am i little dissapointed in this saw. The saw plate is straight and it has been sharpened. But it is purchased as a "refurbed" saw.

Personally, if I was selling refurbed saws- I would at least scrape the old finish off. But maybe that part is being left to the new owner or comes with "patina." Regardless, it ain't staying like this.


----------



## AnthonyReed

I will preface this with; I know nothing. But that has to be a later rendition, right? The handle is much more boxy in shape than the other D-8's posted here recently.

Thanks for the picture Lysdexic and congrats on your new acquisition, it's beautiful.


----------



## Bertha

Scott, I guess you paid for a refurb'd plate. I looked at the refurbs there and they weren't terribly cheap. I think it's an awfully handsome saw, though. What if you received the handle exquisitely finished and buffed. You'd probably be disinclined to reshape the handles to your liking. They may have done you an unintentional favor. Good looking saw. I just can't stop looking at that new saw and that's a very unusual experience for me.


----------



## JoeMcGlynn

But how does the new bad axe saw cut? It's very pretty.


----------



## lysdexic

Source The Disston Institute

I may have a frankensaw D-8. That has such a negative connotation for a collector but I am not one - I swear.

The 1" Medallion puts it between 1917 - 1940









The etch puts my saw after 1928









The saw nuts a silver in color. On the medallion side they have a copper color that is wearing through. Although, I didn't see documentation of this, to me indicates a later model.

"This is the typical D-8 handle after 1928, with the color varying with the wood species and coloring under the lacquer. Handles can be anywhere from blonde to brown to red, depending on when it was made. The handles were apple until about 1947, when they were changed to beech, as these handles demonstrate. The D-8 was sold until shortly after the acquisition of Disston by HK Porter in 1955. "


























Mine resembles the last picture. Furthermore, applewood was dropped from the handle description in the catoloque entries from 1947-1955

So, all in all, I am more inclined to believe that my saw is from the late 40's to early 50's and has an incorrect medallion.


----------



## racerglen

Scott, if you look at the pics of my D-8 a way back you'll see exactly the same nut/medalion color combo, I thought the nuts had just got a coat of finish at some point making the brass that copper color..the "back side" nuts are the same on mine, the copper color.

Distracted again, I was working on the 8's etch and thought I'd check for some others..sigh..2 12's and my grandfather's very old 7 that has a beautiful untouched etch that I can't seem to get a glare free pic of, later and, hmm, that old backsaw..
"the black knight" "cast steel" Registered trademark" no 55 "Slack Sellar's & co" Shefeild England. with a lot of fancy scroll work.
A 12 inch plate with 13 tpi\ppi

Andy is SUCH a bad influence.


----------



## Brit

Glen - I'm totally unapologetic.  We are doing a great service to future generations.

You have got to get some pictures. I'd love to see all of the above saws and etches.

Also check out Paul Sellers sorting out a Sellars:

http://www.getwoodworking.com/news/article.asp?a=783


----------



## racerglen

Andy, Ill try my best and as soon as I can.
Hey, thanks for the Sellers on Sellars, that gives all sorts of "new" hints as well as history !


----------



## Bertha

This is probably the single biggest handsaw respository on the net.


----------



## need2boat

I've been having some rather bad luck with 7" extra slim files. The place I've bought them from in the past has been out and it seems like most others are waiting for more to come in the end of the month but I did find a few so I worked on the peg tooth last night.

I jointed this way down which is a new plan of attack for me and it worked well for this. taking it was down help keep the file on the new rake angle with out a lot of bouncing around.

I went with the 7" extra slim over the slim because of the progressive tooth line and not wanted to switch files. I know some do it but after talking with Matt and my own experience its I've found you run into issues in the gullet do to the difference in files they aren't as clean and your back to the problem of keeping the angle consistent.

Before









After


















Joe


----------



## donwilwol

Al, are you saying its time ti kill it 

My flight was cancelled before I left the house yesterday, so I had an extra hour or so in the morning. I did some more filing. I may have worked out my issue. I'll know this weekend.


----------



## Bertha

^lol, I'm in favor of destroying anything that's popular. If people are having fun, it really gets to me


----------



## donwilwol

I'll bet the advertisers hate it as well. It's probably hurting revenue.


----------



## Brit

*Joe* - Your filing is coming on a treat. I hope I can manage to do as good a job as you.

*Al & Don *- You're both barmy as a bag of badgers. Long may it continue.

I got the kids together again this morning to measure them up for their new home. Still got the 2nd and 3rd in from left to restore, but I'm getting excited now the end is in sight.


----------



## racerglen

Amazing what you do with a workmate and lots of sweat equity Andy !


----------



## Bertha

^goodness gracious, Andy, what a handsome family. Incredible.


----------



## Brit

Usually I get quite attached to my tools Glen, but honestly I can't wait to toss that piece of crap in a skip. In some ways though, it does you good to HAVE to make do with 'less than ideal'. It forces you to get creative and find ways to do things that you wouldn't normally do and that kind of thinking is good trait in any woodworker. When I eventually get the bench of my dreams, I think I probably will cry with joy and I'm not ashamed to admit it.


----------



## BrandonW

Beautiful saws, Andy. The two saws you have left to do still look nicer than the ones I've restored! Have you thought about how to organize them in a till? Back saws are a bit of a different issue in this regards than regular hand saws.


----------



## BrandonW

I just got a workmate off of craigslist for free-- it was in my neighborhood. I thought of you, Andy. Not sure what I will do with it, but it might be useful for taking on an occasional job, or I may find that one of my friends can use it.


----------



## racerglen

The older ones are the best, stand up well, mine waqs a gift from the inlaws in about 1975, 
the first "bench" I ever had, it's stood the test of time as bench, ladder, painting stand and more as well as surviving three sons and a wife.
It dosen't see that much use anymore, but when I need to go mobile for a job, It's ready.,


----------



## Brit

Brandon said: "Have you thought about how to organize them in a till?"

Only every spare moment for the last two months Brandon.  I've been through all the options. I would love to just hang each one from a single peg as they are laid out on the floor in the picture above, but I simply don't have the wall space to do it. So I'm going to build a till and support them on a bullnosed batton under the top horn, with the blades in a kerf. I haven't done the Sketchup drawing for it yet, otherwise I'd post it.


----------



## Bertha

I read the whole chapter on the Workmate in Landis' book. It's a phenomenal story about how the WorkMate came to be. I'm going to treat mine with a bit more respect now


----------



## BrandonW

Can't wait to see the drawings, Andy. I'm still trying to figure out a way to store my back saws. I have a till for the other hand saws, but it's probably not ideal since the stress is put completely on the plates.


----------



## Brit

Yeah I read that too Al, but it is still going in the skip. LOL.

Once I've built my dream bench, I'll use it to make a small collapsible bench of my own design and that will become my portable bench and get used for site work and DIY.


----------



## Brit

*Brandon *- Any chance you can post a picture of your till when you've got a minute. I been collecting a few examples, but I'd love to see more?


----------



## Brit

By the way Brandon, you'll like the next two restoration posts as there's a bit of history in both of them. Maybe not the era you specialize in, but interesting none the less.


----------



## BrandonW

Looking forward to the posts, Andy. I love history of all sorts, and have enjoyed your historical saw posts already, so I know they'll be good.

I'll try and get a picture of my till--it was my own design, but like I said, it's probably not the best solution.


----------



## RGtools

Andy…now I am the one that is jealous. That is a handsome family of saw you have there. 2nd from right and fourth from left are my favorites. But then again I could play with those all day and not get board.


----------



## lysdexic

Andy, do you think I could get an autographed poster of that pic.


----------



## Brit

*Brandon* - Thanks.

*Ryan* - I can't wait to play with them all too. I've still got to decide how I'm going to sharpen them all in terms of number of teeth, rake, fleam, progressive etc. One of the reasons I acquired so many was to try different configurations.

*Scott* - I never know when you're serious or not. If you are, then let me finish restoring the other two and then I'll break out the tripod and take a better picture that will withstand being enlarged. You're more than welcome to a copy. Please remind me nearer the time if I forget.


----------



## lysdexic

Andy - I feel the same way about Al. You'd think I'd know by now. But I am not serious. Consider it a compliment from smart ass. It is an impressive pic of impressive work - seriously.


----------



## BrandonW

Andy, I think that would make an awesome poster, once the last two are cleaned up. Just don't pose them on the workmate! 

Here area couple of pictures of my saw till. I made it out of some reclaimed SYP floor joists. Again, I'm planning on re-doing this, but it serves its purpose for the time being. Also, don't judge my dusty saws. :-D


----------



## mochoa

That till is pretty cool, a very efficient use of space. I like the #5 posing on top of it, adds some nice flair.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Here I am looking at the poster above the #5… It's not all about tools, all the time, is it?


----------



## BrandonW

Haha, thanks. The Beatles poster is actually off of the Beatles Rock Band drum set. Who doesn't like the Beatles? I have other posters in the garage such as a Dr Who poster, a Martin Luther (the German reformer), and an ancient biblical manuscript. Yet I'm running out of wall space and some of the posters may have to go.

The plane is my 605-I like to keep it close to the bench.


----------



## Brit

*Scott* - Thank God for that!

*Brandon* - Thanks for the pic. I see what you mean about all the weight being on the plates. They don't seem to be flexing though from what I can see. Perhaps a better way would be to have a simple horizontal shelf with kerfs cut in it. They would then be supported under the cheeks of the handle and the plates wouldn't be stressed at all.


----------



## lysdexic

Brit, 
My current plan is to make a vertical saw till. It would fairly conventional except:

The sides would be low profile as to view the saws
The kerf in the top support would angle about 15 degrees give a better view off the saws. 
The lower handle support would be undersized so that the saws could easily tilt to match the kerf angle

I hope that makes sense.


----------



## BrandonW

Any thoughts on this saw? Is the plate too pitted to be useful? If it were a plane iron I'd pass on it, but I'm curious if it'd be worth fixing up.


----------



## Brit

Looking forward to seeing it Scott.


----------



## Brit

I think that is too badly pitted to clean up. You would never be able to sand both side enough to get rid of those pits and still have a thick enough plate to make that a useable saw IMO.

However the handle is in good condition, so if you have a suitable donor saw, you could make a new plate for it if you wanted to go to that much trouble.


----------



## need2boat

I need to refinish a section of a handle I work on a few weeks ago. Will I run into any issues with putting shellac over shellac? I want to resand a bit in a few small spots. I'm guessing no, but I've really only started working with it and oddly don't tend to refinish a lot of my stuff.

Joe


----------



## Brit

No you won't Joe. Shellac and lacquer melt into their previous coats to become in effect a thicker single coat.


----------



## BrandonW

That's what I figured. Thanks!


----------



## need2boat

Brandon, I'm with Andy.

If you don't mind the pits I'm sure it will clean up and sharpen but it will never shine. I'm got a split nut that started about the same. It's a nice saw but the plate is pitted. I can post a pit tonight.

Joe


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Thanks to inspiration on the thread, my D-12 is done.










And I mean Thanks! It was fun to do, and now I have a favorite panel saw.


----------



## need2boat

Andy,

So should use a bit of denatured alcohol to feather the edge? or will it naturally do that when I reapply it.

Joe


----------



## JoeMcGlynn

Looks great Smitty! I did one of these a few weeks ago, it's a blast to turn a bit of junk back into a useful tool.

I have to stop buying and fixing up tools so I can finish my workbench, so I can use it to build a tool chest, so I, uhm, have more room for tools…


----------



## AnthonyReed

Nice Smitty!


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Thanks to Tony, and Joe: right back at ya, nice job! I'm not bitten by the rehab bug yet, but it was gratifying to do this one.


----------



## Brit

*Joe* - It should do it naturally. Apply thin coats.

*Smitty* - That's a beauty. You did a superb job on that. Another convert.  Believe it or not, I'm not bitten by the rehab bug either. I can't wait to finish restoring tools so I can get some woodworking done.


----------



## RGtools

How often do you guys replace your saw files? There seems to be an extreme difference of opinion on the subject.


----------



## JoeMcGlynn

I toss the files as soon as they stop cutting properly-which is fairly quickly, as it turns out. I think I used up 3 files re-toothing and sharpening one saw. I had to more filing that someone with more experience would (I had to joint and re-file a couple of time to even out the teeth), but still…


----------



## need2boat

If I shape and sharpen a really bad saw like No 7 I posted earlier today, where your really cutting teeth, that's it for the file, one and done. Since 90% of the saws I have been working on are in bad shape I go through them quite a bit.

You can kind of tell when they stop cutting and start sliding. I try cleaning them a few times and if i keep getting that sliding feeling, it's on to the next one. When I took the class with Matt he pointed out file makers harden files in big batches and some end up better then others, and last longer then others.

Joe


----------



## Brit

Joe's right. When you're rehabing old saws, you should expect to get through quite a few of them. Saw plate is tough stuff. However the good news is that once you have your saws how you want them, you will only need to touch them up from time to time and then the files will last for quite a few sharpenings.


----------



## RGtools

I should have been more specific. I was thinking about just the aspect of sharpening: the late Tage Frid and a few others seem to think that you can only get one sharpening out of each side of a file (meaning 3 sharpening per-file)....I think that is a bit nuts myself, but it's good to know I have some company. Thanks for the tip on the sliding feeling….that makes a ton of sense to me.

Re-toothing kills files pretty fast but that is to be expected considering how much material you have to remove.


----------



## need2boat

These are some of the things I've learned that I'll throw out there. Some are from the class I took with Matt others are just from screw ups. ;-0

Files very quite a bit even in the same box. check all 3 side, when you start and make sure they look good. I've found that some will have a flat or the angle on one side is off. If you find a brand you like or it's local and easy to buy stick with it.

Do not change files mid stream. Your better off stopping and putting it aside till you buy a new one. Don't switch between same sizes of different brands mid stream.

If your dealing with a progressive tooth saw go with the smaller file for all the teeth. You'll have slightly deeper gullets which can be a help on Rip saws.

Joe


----------



## Brit

Thanks Joe, that's good to know. What brand of files are you using? The ones I bought are Bahco, but I haven't used them enough yet to have an opinion.


----------



## RGtools

I wondered about the best way to do a progressive….that makes more sense then the files that I imagined to be littered across my bench. Would you want to can't the blade towards the toe befor your started though to counter act the reverse cant this would create?


----------



## need2boat

I've use a few brands as I bought them at a few places when I first got started. Nicholson, Simonds, Sandvik and Grobet. I have a local hardware supply place to me that had a good deal of old stock on Nicholson and the price was good so I bought what I could from them.

Grobet is a swiss company and there US office is about 5 miles from my apt so buy any others from them. The only issue has been when they run out, it's a LONG wait. Right now they are out of 7" extra slim which I like for 5-7 ppi and I have a few rips saws I've been working on so its a bummer.

I found some Nicholson so I bought a few but now that I know what I use I'm buying a full box of 12, for the Grobet that around 40.00.

Here's the breakdown I use. Everyone seems breaks the PPI a little different.

4 inch double extra slim: 12 to 15 ppi
6 inch double extra slim: 10, 11 ppi
6 inch extra slim: 8, 9 ppi
7 inch extra slim: 5 to 7 ppi
7 inch slim taper: 3 to 4.5 ppi

Joe


----------



## need2boat

I've done 2 progressive rips so far and was kind of worried and emailed Matt to see if had any words of advice. He said do them just as you would a regular saw.

I jointed them both down a bit more then normal because I was changing the rake but I'd say that was also a plus as it helps keep the saw from jumping around when shaping. I think when I go back it sharpen I won't need to.

As it turned out, Matt was right the difference in tooth size really didn't make that big of a difference. I cut all the teeth 2 or 3 full strokes from hell to toe, then look over the flats go back and hit the high spots, then start from the heal to toe again. I shoot for 3 full passes plus that even out pass, So 3 1/2 ish. ;-)

JFF


----------



## need2boat

I had some time last night to finish up some of the handles I've been working on and put ONE saw back together. This was a saw I got from a friend David I tool Matt's class with and lives local to me. He find quit a bit of rip saws and I was looking for a 4.5 or 5 PPI I could file to 0. He had already taken the handle off so and it just needed the horn and hook so it found it's way to the top of the pile.

I'm happy with the repair but I think I may go back and resand and shellac the back part of the horn as I over did it with the glazing. This was the fist one I did, The other handles came out a bit nicer at the blends. I've learned a lot doing this and I'll post something to the blog when I have sometime.

This is the saw with the pointy teeth. I also darkend the etch which was a first and it wasn't too hard and really improved things.




























Handles Before: I'm still working on the richardson. The saw plate needs work so I put the handle aside for now









Handles After: I'm very happy with the No7 I replaced 1/2 the handle on. It's the one I went back and reshellac'ed.










Joe


----------



## JoeMcGlynn

Wow, really nice work on the handles!

Where do you get the apple wood?


----------



## mochoa

great repairs!


----------



## lysdexic

Friggin outstanding.

I vaguely remember you sharing your finishing process. Would you mind sharing agian?


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Joe, those fixes are totally awesome! Well Done!


----------



## BrandonW

Excellent work, Joe. It's very inspiring. Perhaps I'll go and replace a broken horn soon.


----------



## AnthonyReed

Wow Joe! Great job.


----------



## Brit

Joe, you rock. I learn so much whenever you share your work and experience.


----------



## need2boat

Thanks guys,

I got the UK beach is from a transition plane bottom. The apple is from a local mill, i got lucky on that although it's not super hard to find. The D12 uses mahogany wood which was the hardest to find a good match for. They many type and the domestic I could find just didn't have the deep red. As it turned out it wasn't do bad.

lysdexic,

I really didn't go into the process as I figured I'd save that for a longer blog post. I start by using a water based dye, then shellac, then glaze to had the lone, then 3 coats rattle can lacquer, then wax. What I found was on No7 in the picture of 3 handles, I sanded and reshellaced a section. I was worried about it matching back but as it turned out it really helped by giving it a bit of an aged look due to the second coat.

Joe


----------



## need2boat

Thanks Andy,

I'll take some better picture when the sun comes back later this week. It's been a bit overcast for the last few days and by the time I get home its dark. The saw plate doesn't shine quite like yours but it does look better then in the picture.

Next on the list is some type of tote to carry them, just something simple to use in transport from my apt to shop or when I hit the flee market from time to time.

Anyone have a design they like.

Joe


----------



## Bertha

Whoa Joe! Awesome!


----------



## RGtools

I am working on something…but it is not all that simple. Any tote would work though…just put a divider in to keep you blades from getting jacked up.

This went together pretty fast.

http://lumberjocks.com/projects/49182


----------



## need2boat

It will be nice when I get the handles on and can give them a proper test. Currently I'm using a rip with around 5 degrees of rake. One things for sure I will need to eat my wheaties before getting 0 rake big boy in motion.

Joe


----------



## need2boat

RG,

Not sure what the style its called but I'm leaning towards the Roy Underhill's type Tool Tote. There are a lot of them on this site but I'm sure you've seen his on TV.

Joe


----------



## BrandonW

I built one of those totes with some minor modifications. They're great! There are planes in one of this books, I think it's the Woodwright's Apprentice. I had checked it out of the library.


----------



## Brit

Hang on a minute. Am I missing something here? I thought Joe was looking for something to carry his saws, not a general purpose tool tote, lovely as they are. Am I right Joe? Is that what you meant?


----------



## donwilwol

Joe, you do a nice job on the handles. I've fixed one with the bottom missing but went the opposite direction and chose a completely different color wood.


----------



## need2boat

Andy,

My thinking is to make the side taller and less of an angle. Then add 2 cross pieces at the end that I can cut slits into I just like the over all look of the handle down the center.

Joe


----------



## JoeMcGlynn

Latest feather in the nest, found it on ebay and it just arrived today. I'd been debating for a week (or longer) about putting a deposit on a Bad Axe Beastmaster tenon saw, but I couldn't handle the long wait.

I made a quick test cut with it and it tracked really well. Left a nice finish on the face too. I plan to start cutting the tenons on my workbench legs this weekend.


----------



## lysdexic

Joe,

Good for you, man. I see they hold their value.


----------



## JoeMcGlynn

Saw tills… On the list. Current frontrunner is a combination saw bench/till. I'd like to have a wall cabinet to store them, but I don't have any accessible wall space in my shop.

Google turned up a few interesting pics:

http://www.shoptours.org/shop_tours/files/kevin-french.html









http://store.lumberjocks.com/projects/51534


----------



## Brit

Joe - Here's a few more that I've found on my travels.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Question for the esteemed panel. What's the method for matching blades to new handles? I've heard folks speak of 'punching holes' for the new handle vs. drilling holes. I will say that drilling one hole kills my drill bits. (I'm not good at metal work.) What's the proper way to put holes in spring steel?


----------



## need2boat

Andy

That last picture is what I went with and beasue I have wood on the wall I didn't bother adding a back. I just put cross pieces for the saws to rest on. Due to the size and location its kind of far from the bench so I just added two pegs closer to where I work. Then I just store the one or two I need local and leave the rest. Its not the best but it really has worked well. I find new uses for the pegs all the time and they take up no real space.

Joe


----------



## racerglen

Smitty, try a carbide masonary bit.,.
Works for me..


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Oo, I will! I have some of those…  Thanks.


----------



## JoeMcGlynn

Here is the leading contender for me. I like the "display rack" aspect of the more common tills, but as I said, I don't have wall space. This would protect the saws from dust and dirt. I do metalwork in my shop too, and my helper polishes metal. That makes an UNGODLY mess. I need to hang some plastic to contain that.

http://www.badgerwoodworks.com/2011/10/the-anarchists-saw-bench-box-2/


----------



## need2boat

Smity,

The other Joe does a good deal of metal work so maybe he will comment but I've used step bits a few times for drilling metal and I'm not sure why but they work great for it. They aren't cheap but you won't kill it in one use like you will with a regular twist bit.

You can find them at the big box stores or local hardware.

JFF


----------



## JoeMcGlynn

Regular twist bits stink for sheetmetal, and they usually don't even make round holes…there are more triangular. A step bit (unibit) is a good choice. A drill press, wood backup block, low RPM and drop of oil all help. If you run the bit too fast you'll dull it because it's rubbing more than cutting.

I think the difference is in the angle of the cutting edge to the surface, it's much lower in a step bit.


----------



## Bertha

Joe, that is a slick setup!


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Joe, I do like that till-in-a-box, have since I first saw it. Great idea, and a fine companion to a sawbench if they're at the same height. One of those is definitely on my build list.

And I think the low RPM (lack thereof, in my case) is the key I'm missing… And I think a unibit is also a good call when the hole needs to be elongated just a twitch to work w/ the replacement handle. Thanks, gents.


----------



## BrandonW

Hey, did anybody notice we crossed the 1000 post milestone on this thread?

I like the box tills simply for their portability. Chris Black was selling saws at Highland recently and he had a box that looked like the one Joe posted.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

I think I'd add a sliding tray for sharpening files.


----------



## JoeMcGlynn

I found another till…

I'm reminded me of the plane cabinet Christopher Schwarz built, it could be hung on the wall with a french cleat, or laid down flat like a chest. The same thing could work for a saw till.

http://www.philsville.co.uk/saw_till_complete.htm


----------



## need2boat

I like the chest style but I have even less floor space then wall so that off my list for sure. I guess looking at the designs the issue I have is they are so low to the ground. You really couldn't use as a seat, stool or such and bending over to pull things out sucks.

What about doing something like an up right chest or a proper tool chest. yes it's a lot more work but the floor space isn't a lot more.

Joe


----------



## donwilwol

I once seen a set up where the chest was a series of covered drawers. The drawers could be remove and became self contained tool boxes. So something like the box Joe posted (I like it a lot by the way) would slide into a cabinet like a drawer.

I always wanted to design and build something like that that made sense, but alias, the time thing, the money thing and the current lack of need to move my tools that much now.


----------



## JoeMcGlynn

I hear you Joe.

I like the saw bench/chest idea because I'll be making a pair of saw benches anyway, and if one of them stored my saw then so much the better. I like the idea of a wall cabinet even better, but unless I have some kind of organizational brainstorm all my wall space is inaccessible.

I've got to figure something out, but finishing the workbench is first.


----------



## Bertha

I'm with Joe. I'm simply out of floor space. Unless I start hanging stuff from the roof, it's going to have to be wall-mounted. I still need to find a way to fit that Walker Turner radial press in there, but that's for another thread


----------



## need2boat

One thing to keep in mind with the saw bench is if you go with a style that has a tray or support low on the legs you loose the ability to stack them unless it's planed out in advance. I looked at a lot of style some better then others. I will most likely make another set like the ones I currently have for my apt when I'm working on saws. I like to test cut the results ASAP. ;-)

Joe


----------



## dhazelton

I see there are over a thousand responses, so forgive me if I repost what has already been shared. I live right outside Middletown and the Monhagen Saw Works buildings still stand. Here is a great link to one of their catalogs from 1871. Up until just a year or so ago I did all of my mitering with a rock maple miter box and stanley back saw. I took one on a job I was doing with someone and he thought I was nuts, but I thought he was crazy for bringing a 12 inch sliding miter on a rising stand into a service elevator just to install a small cove around the floor we just laid. Cheers!

http://www.wkfinetools.com/hUS-saws/MSW-WMC/pubs/1871-Catalog/p01.asp


----------



## need2boat

Welcome,

I've been up that way myself a few times but didn't think to drive by the site. Wheeler, Madden & Clemson is on my short list of saws I'd love to fine. 
The dome nut saws they made in addition to the metal plates and second hand grip are just coolest. One of the local tool guys around me has one.; the tone the saw plate makes when struck with my thumb is second to none.

I'll talk him out of it one of these days.

Joe


----------



## donwilwol

I had found that catalog but don't think I posted it here when I restored this saw. I've got it apart once more trying to get rid of some of the pits, but I may replace the blade. We'll see once I get back to it.


----------



## donwilwol

I believe this to be a D-8 Disston.





































The before


----------



## Brit

Looking good Don. Is that just BLO on the handle? What happened to the top horn?


----------



## donwilwol

Andy, Its just danish oil. Fresh out of the pan when this was taken. I will add another coat of 2 of BLO. The horn was damaged on the very tip. I thought about adding a new piece, but decided on the easy approach.


----------



## Brit

Nice color. I like.


----------



## lysdexic

That is a nice color. Was there any etch left? I guess not otherwise you would be certain on the identity.


----------



## donwilwol

there is just enough etch left to see the disston outline and read Philadelphia. Everything in the middle is gone.


----------



## Brit

Here's my latest design for the saw till I'm thinking of building. I designed it so that it would take a 16" plate with a 6" depth of cut, but I might reduce the dimensions to just hold up to a 14" plate with a 4" depth of cut. Basically because I don't own a 16" saw and although I'd like one, it is difficult to justify for the few cuts where it would come in handy. I can always use a panel saw for those cuts anyway. Any thoughts?


----------



## JoeMcGlynn

Looks great Andy. Why not accomodate you panel or larger hand saws in it though?


----------



## Brit

Basically Joe it's because I will use my backsaws at the bench mostly, but my handsaws will be used at the saw bench, so they will be in a separate till where the saw bench is located.


----------



## donwilwol

Andy, you know whats going to happen if you don't add that 2"s. Somebodies going to give you a sweet 16"backsaw, or your going to find one for $2, and your going to kick yourself for not adding it in. Of course the flip side is …... that's a sure way to make it happen.

We all know its the hardest part of building these holders for use with this sickness, we can not predict what tomorrow will bring us.

Either way I like your design. I believe its the best I've seen so far. I'd like a double glass door in my shop, but I tend to be messy.


----------



## planepassion

Andy, based on my experience, having backsaws within arms reach of my bench is a big time saver. I use my bench hook constantly with my XC backsaws. And with my backsaw till located above my bench I can access those plus my dovetail saw and my tenon saw in moments.

I like your design. Have you considered small drawers? I think they would be handy for things like saw sets, saw files and sharpening jigs. Have you settled on a wood species yet?


----------



## Brit

*Don* - I have a love hate relationship with doors. Great for times when you're making dust, but a pain in the butt the rest of the time. When I eventually get in my shop, I'm going to make it a rule to sand outside whenever possible. Although I have electric sanders, I prefer to sand by hand. If I have to sand inside, I'll get the wife to stand close and breath in while I'm doing it so it shouldn't be a problem. Good job she doesn't read my posts. 

*Brad* - Funny you should mention drawers. My first design had a drawer that I was going to store saw files and sets in. I was going to have a double layer of files with a sliding tray and a deeper area for sets, mill file and holder, file card, etc.










I got rid of it, because the drawer wasn't very deep in relation to it's width and I could see myself pulling it out and dropping the lot on the floor or having to pull it right out in order to access everything. I think I will hang the files on the side wall above the dovetail saws and the sets etc on the back wall. We'll see.


----------



## JoeMcGlynn

I like the look of the "drawer" version better, but I agree that the drawer scale could be a problem.

What if it were a fall-font panel instead, hinged at the bottom? Then you could have a couple of small shelves inside for your saw set and boxes of files.


----------



## Brit

I'll give that some thought Joe, but then where would I hang my coping saws and fret saws etc. I suppose I could still have the hanging space below the drawer. I feel a version 3 coming on.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Andy - that space below the totes is good for three shallow drawers across… For spare sawnuts you likely have on hand, a split nut screwdiver, maybe tallow or wax, a saw swet, short files, etc.


----------



## JoeMcGlynn

Andy, you could just put a peg or two on the side of the cabinet.


----------



## lysdexic

On the angled board that the handles are resting….

you could make it vertical'
increase the height'
then put pegs on it in order to hang the coping saws in a more square and orderly fashion.


----------



## racerglen

Andy IF you're going to sand outside..you'll need to keep the Workmate !

;-)


----------



## Brit

All good suggestions guys. I'll see what I can come up with.


----------



## racerglen

Andy..over to handplane neverending..check my latest addition (s)
I think I'm in LOVE if not LUST..


----------



## planepassion

Yes Andy. The pegs could go on the side of the till for coping saws and the single, long drawer currently in your design could be converted to three smaller drawers. Also, if you added locking drawer slides that would end the stuff all over the floor possibility.


----------



## BrandonW

Before and after of my recent Disston compass saw. Only paid $5 for it, but it has some serious pitting.


----------



## lysdexic

Very nice. I dont remember you saying if you sharpening on your own or not.


----------



## BrandonW

Not sharpening yet, but I have some files and plan to sharpen soon. This compass saw will actually make a good saw for practicing on. I just need a saw vise.


----------



## donwilwol

Brandon, I think I have an extra saw vice. Remind me toward the end of next week. I fly home thursday night and I'll look. If I can dig it up, your welcome to it.

I tried to sharpen again today. I got the saw sharp, but it walks terrible. It not rocket science, I'm not sure why I can't get it. I'll try again next week end I guess.


----------



## Bertha

That till is outstanding, Andy.


----------



## Brit

Thanks Al. Unfortunately though, it is only a sketchup drawing. Wouldn't it be great if you could hit a button called *Create 3D Object* and it suddenly appeared from some conveyor belt.

Brandon - Nice restoration on that compass saw.


----------



## Bertha

^hmmmm, Andy. Perhaps there is such a button…
http://www.dimensionprinting.com/


----------



## Brit

Interesting Al. The day will come.


----------



## RGtools

Of course if that were the case Andy…what would you do with all those saws.

Admittedly 3D printing is pretty cool though.


----------



## carguy460

Hello all - great thread, I've been lurking around this thing for…47 days now according to my LJ account information! I have a dumb question that I'm sure has been answered, but I can't seem to find it, so here goes…
I've got a few handsaws that were my grandfathers, and I'm attempting to restore them back to useable condition. I have 2 Disstons, but I figured I should "practice" on one of the others…so I pulled out one with a "Warranted Superior" Medallion and went to work…









When I started to take out the bolts, I noticed that I kept turning and turning and turning, but to no avail…The "nut" side wasnt turning, so I should have been unscrewing the bolts, right??? I finally said "screw it" and used a slightly different method of removal. Once I got one set out I noticed there were no threads on either piece!!!








Sorry for the awful pictures, I only have a camera phone…

Is this normal? It didn't seem like I had stripped the threads out as no metal came out of the bolts…What am I missing here?? Thanks in advance for the help!


----------



## JoeMcGlynn

It looks like a tubular rivet, and from the handle it's a newer saw (2nd half of the 20th century?) so it's not surprising. If you can get the rivets out you may be able to re-use them, but more likely you'll need to replace them with something else. You could probably find used (threaded) parts on ebay.


----------



## Brit

Hi Jason, welcome to LJs and more specifically to this thread. As I type, I've just seen that Joe has beaten me to it. They are rivets and by the time this saw was made, there was little thought by the manufacturer that anyone would want to remove the handle at some point in the future. It was the start of the throw away culture and they wanted you to buy a new saw rather than restore it. The rivets were just hammered together and were a friction fit.

If you can get the others out, you might be able to re-use them but you would only have the same problem should you wish to remove the handle in the future. The alternative is to either find some bolts form a junk donor saw or buy some new ones.

The other alternative is to leave the handle in situ when you rub it down. It looks like the existing finish will come off with minimal sanding, so you might want to try that. It could be a bit tricky cleaning the saw plate with the handle still attached, but it is possible.


----------



## carguy460

Thanks for the info Joe and Andy. I was able to get all of them out once I saw what I was working with, but I was curious about reusing them. I knew this wasn't exactly a "keeper" saw, but since it was family owned I've got to treat it as such. A few of the other saws I have a are similar Warranted Superior type, but there are 2 Disstons that I'm pretty excited about. Based on the medallions, one was made 1896-1917, and the other is 1917-1940 range. I'm assuming that those 2 will have actual screws???


----------



## racerglen

If they don't somebody's been messing arround..

;-)


----------



## Brit

They should both have threaded saw screws Jason, unless Glenn got to them first and nicked them.


----------



## racerglen

Andy, I wouldn't do that !
They'd have to be a whole lot shinier !
;-}


----------



## need2boat

Hey Andy,

I was out of town this weekend so I didn't get the chance to comment on the saw saw till. In a word "regal".

I like the idea of pegs, I think you'll find they are more versatile, I went with a shelf under mine and really it sees little use. I've got an old jointer and set tool sitting on it that don't use much.

I was Back up in RI to take another class With Matt, and also went tail gate before a tool auction held over the weekend. Turned out to be a really great time. The class was fun, I found a few nice saws plus built one in the class. picture to come.

JFF


----------



## Brit

Thanks Joe. Looking forward to seeing the saw you made.


----------



## need2boat

I didn't get the chance to take any pictures of the saw I made, but I will tonight. Going to finish sanding and put some wax in it. Here's some of the more interesting saws I did pick up.

Disston I think No 8, 18" which is really nice. needs to be cleaned but check out the paper label. The guy was cutting dry wall with it!


















Nice early Backsaw from Disston


















Wheeler, Madden & Clemson#25 I was just saying how I wanted to find one of there. In a work this saw says to me "business" and I think had they not patented this handle so quick it would have been more popular. I find it much nicer in my hands then the D-8 thumb-hole grip. 









Not really sure who made this but I'm a sucker for the raised nuts and I'm sure a little digging will tell me more. It's a walnut handle which points me to Wheeler, Madden & Clemson. I bought two raised nut saws but don't have medallions




































Joe


----------



## racerglen

Beauties Joe, Beauties !


----------



## Brit

Joe - What a nice bounty you've got there. The second of the saws with raised nuts (the one with 3 plain nuts) could be a Cresson saw. I know they used those type of nuts and if it is, I think they are quite sought after. The blade will be stamped rather than etched, so it should be easier to clean it. Can you see a stamp on the blade?


----------



## need2boat

Thanks Glen,

I think these are the keepers but I got a few others that I will most likely sharpen and resell. What I was most excited about was finding the elusive smaller ratchet bars for my foley retoother. I can now retooth from 4.5 up to 16 ppi which is nice because many of the finer backsaws need new saw plates due to a number of reasons.

Joe


----------



## need2boat

Andy,

It could be Cresson. I'd love to find one, having grown up around Philt PA it's really that I can still drive by some of the building these were built in. I've got a friend that lives not far from one of his early building when it was called Conshohocken Saw Works. Just off the Schuylkill river.

Mat Cianci (saw blog) checked both of them out and thought the same thing. The stamping detail on the nuts of the first raised nut saw is really nice. They both don't have medallions which makes it a crap shoot but also adds the excitement that they could be really early models.

Joe


----------



## need2boat

I didn't get the chance to finish the handle, but I 90% sure I'm going to just finish sanding it down to 600 or so and just wax it. The handle is made from beech and I think doesn't need the warmth of shellac.

The saw plate is 3"x12", 13ppi and I filed it rip with 0 rake. It was interesting because of the 4 of us in the class just one made a cc saw but the other 2 guys filed rip but with 5 or so degrees of rake. I also tend to under set my saw. I think it has to do with constantly reading most saws are over set.. . I'll most likely go back and add a little bit more. I set all my new filed teeth the same, handle to the left first saw tooth is set then skip.

I found this saw with the 0 rake to be much more aggressive then the other two with some rake. I would have though at such a fine tooth you wouldn't have noticed it?


----------



## racerglen

Wow !
Very nice work,


----------



## BrandonW

Joe, that is a work of art! An heirloom tool, to be sure! Did you stamp your name in the brass back?


----------



## AnthonyReed

Joe great score and outstanding job on your build, it is beautiful.

Is this the same saw you and Andy are talking about?


----------



## Brit

Nice backsaw *Joe*. I agree with you about the rake. I would say anything 15PPI rip and above should certainly be 0 rake. If people can't start a saw with that many teeth then they're doing it wrong and they need to practice. Adding rake because you can't saw is not the answer. 

Your saw with 13PPI, also doesn't need any because you obviously can saw and have no trouble starting it. Why make a saw slower than it needs to be eh?

*Anthony* - That does look like the one Joe bought. Do you know what it is?


----------



## need2boat

Thanks guys. No I don't currently have a stamp or anything to etch into it. ;-) Since I'm starting to sell some of the saws I've fixed I've been playing with a few names but nothing sticking.

Considering something that plays on left handedness if anyone has one they like.

Tony,

That's a dome nut saw for sure. What I've found in digging and emailing with friends is most of the early guys makde them on one of there lines and the idea was they were work horses that's why they don't have saw medallions. So it's always hard to figure things out. Yours however does look a lot like mine and needs much left-handed love. ;-0

Joe


----------



## RGtools

Joe I am so jealous. I would love to take one of those classes at some point. That is a gorgeous saw.

And I agree with you and Andy about the rake….unless you use your 15 tpi saw for crosscut a lot, then a degree of rake is not a bad idea.


----------



## BrandonW

"Two Left Hands"

I'm a lefty-mostly. I'm ambidextrous and I think I prefer to saw with my left hand-what do you have for me, Joe?


----------



## BrandonW

Or maybe doing something with the word "sinister," which means "left, on the left hand" in Latin.


----------



## AnthonyReed

*Andy* - I have no idea what it is. i removed the handle and removed the rust from the blade and handle plate then hung it back up. i did not see any stamp or etch while i had it apart. i have no skill, in the least, when it comes to saw restoration so i just wanted to keep it from further deteriorating.

*Joe* - Yes it needs a bunch of help but like i said i am not the man for the job at this point. i need to read more of all your guy's blogs and practice a bunch on the less desirable saws i have picked up before i will be comfortable enough to attempt to refurbish a descent saw.

Thank you for the info guys.


----------



## need2boat

yea I liked: sinistra or sinistro , corrie-fisted, Dolly-pawed. or Buck-fisted to name a few. . .

I did put the sawnuts in facing the other way, so I'm looking at the nut rather then the split nut when sawing.

Now that I've found the smaller ratchet bars for my retoother I'll for sure make another one. Getting the plate steel and back was the issue but I'll most like order a piece through Matt's guy he used for the class.

JFF


----------



## need2boat

In talking with Josh Clark it sounds like these types of saws were mostly work horse saws so it will be hard to tell. I've got a few others in front of mine but it doesn't look like there is anything on the saw plate. I've also noticed many of these saws with the metal plates are prone to cracking.

JFF


----------



## Dcase

Hey, I don't know if you guys have discussed this at all but I thought I would share..

I had read an article online before about using gun blue to darken/raise a faded saw etch. I have a number of saws with very faded etches so I wanted to try this out. Here is the first saw that I tried it on. Before using the gun blue I could only see a very faint etch and it was hardly readable. BTW this saw had an etch on each side of the blade. Its a GH Bishop #8 Backsaw



























The etch on this saw was really faded so it didn't work magic or anything but it did darken it up quite a bit and made it readable. It was hard to get a clear pic of the etch. Its much more readable if looking at it in person.


----------



## Brit

I've read about doing it Dan, but have never tried it. Did you find that it also highlighted any pitting on the saw plate?


----------



## donwilwol

Andy, I haven't tried it on a saw plate either, but. I've used the 44/40 a lot. It should help blend the pitting. It also helps protect, so just oil after. It's worked for some of the old mauser restores, and I don't always know enough to get in out of the rain.


----------



## need2boat

I don't have any before and after but I've used brass darkening solution on most of the saw plates I've cleaned. I think it works much the same as the bluing stuff.

I'm going to clean a few this week or weekend and will take a before and after.

I bought it local, the sporting goods store was out of the gun blue and I had read about this stuff on wkfinetools.com. Its a bit easier to same off then the gun blue and I'm told it gets darker. That said I've only used gun blue once in that class with Matt so it's not a real apples to apples.

this was was done with it









JFF


----------



## Dcase

Andy, Yes, I did find it to highlight the pitting around the etch. After I put the gun blue on I sanded the plate with a sanding block and 600 grit paper. That got rid of a lot of the darkening that was around the etch.

Its not going to work great on every saw but its nice to be able to read the etch. Especially if you are trying to ID the saw. I have a few saws that I can not ID because the etches are gone or really faded. I am hoping that this gun blue will help me read the etches at least enough to ID them.


----------



## need2boat

What I've found is it makes things that are readable better but doesn't bring things back from the dead. 
I find when I'm cleaning a plate I sand the area where the etch should be. Then with the saw still a little wet I use a warm non-fluorescent light that's not crazy bright. To much light creates glare.

If I can't see anything I don't bother trying to bring it back.

Joe


----------



## Brit

Hey Joe,

Had to go and look at the WMC #25 again. That is a nice tote. It is a bit like this one:










I'd love to find a panther saw in the wild too.










And if you ever see one of these, let me know. I've got no idea what it is. I saw it online and saved the picture without labelling it correctly. Damn!


----------



## Brit

Now this is what I call a saw. How proud are these guys?


----------



## ksSlim

Pulling one end of that bowbelly would keep anyone fit.


----------



## Bertha

Stock wood choice on that last pic above, right Andy? That thing is obscene.


----------



## need2boat

I read about a panther saw that was sold last year for big money and later it was found out to be a fake so I guess you better know your stuff but those are all cool saws but I don't tend to come across stuff that high end. I think anyone finds that they know its special.

Someone forwarded me a spam type email that vintage images of guys cutting wood. we've all see picture like the one above but it was interesting to see some of the process after the tree is on the ground. These guys spent weeks resawing and loading onto Model A trucks and horses. They set up make shift towns to feed and house the guys.

Joe


----------



## Brit

Yeah, they definitely earnt their money that's for sure.


----------



## Brit

Well I was looking for something else and found out more about that double-handed saw handle I posted above.










Here is the patent application for the handle:

http://www.wkfinetools.com/hUS-saws/Flint&Co/patents/132,258-Dietrich/132,258-Dietrich.asp


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Thanks to Andy and Don for the inspiration to even try my hand at saw refurbs.


























And after:


----------



## Brit

It's the circle of life Smitty. Gotta luv that!

I'm curious. What's on the saw in the second photo? It looks like an offcut of granite, but what is holding it there since the saw appears to be vertical?


----------



## lysdexic

Brit, 
That is going to be the top chamfered edge of his leg vise, in which the handle is clamped


----------



## Brit

Thanks Scott, I can see it now. Doh!

I looked at that photo for ages and all I saw was this shape and my mind tricked me into thinking it was a small piece of granite, probably because I use small offcuts of black granite as sanding blocks. Now I feel really stupid. LOL.


----------



## need2boat

Andy,

I went to school in Rochester NY. It's a shame I wasn't into saws then. I would guess a large number of those handles were broken in use. Have you come across a complete list of american saw manufactures? it seems every day I read about a new one.

Joe


----------



## Brit

*Joe* - There is a book called 'Handsaw Makers of North America' by Erwin L Schaffer but I think it is out of print at the moment. There is also a sister book called 'Handsaw Makers of Great Britain' by the same author.

You might be able to find a copy somewhere if you look hard enough.


----------



## need2boat

Thanks Andy,

I have been looking for a copy. Vintagesaw.net sells a PDF that I'll buy if I can't find it, anyone on the list bought it? just wondering if it's a scan or digital.

I've been told it's a little dated but complete.

Joe


----------



## RGtools




----------



## Brit

Great picture RG and nice cut. Personally I like it better with an oil painting effect.


----------



## donwilwol

either way, its a great shot.


----------



## RGtools

It's going in the class but I felt like sharing this one early. The cut looks a bit out of square in the shot but that is just a bit of break-off at the end of the cut….the other 40 inches was perfect, I love days when everything goes smoothly.


----------



## BrandonW

You're developing some really nice skill there, Ryan!


----------



## lysdexic

What brand of table saw do you use there Ryan ; ^ )


----------



## AnthonyReed

That is a stellar display of skill Ryan! Outstanding picture too. Wow man.


----------



## dbray45

The saw that I have for this box is fairly new and the tote is late enough that it was made for the hobiest and not for the craftsman - near the end of the legacy of good quality and not comfortable to use. The mitre bax that I have has the Craftsman label but made by Millers Fall.

So, last week I bought a saw on fleabay - listed as a vintage mtre saw. The picture was dark and had no closeup but didn't matter because I figured to clean it up and use it on my mitre box.

I got it and started cleaning it up and found a surprise.
As it turns out, the saw was made by Disston for the Langdon Mitre Box Co. in the 1880s - 1890s - per the medalion and the company bio. As it turns out, the mitre box that Millers Falls manufactored up to and into the 1970s was the Langdon design. The saw, not surprisingly, works like it was made for this mitre box. The saw also has a name inscribed on the blade - "Carl Pullman"

Thought you might find it interesting - there are still a bunch of really cool finds out there.


----------



## Brit

Congrats David. Can you post a picture so we can drool?


----------



## dbray45

This is what was posted, I'll get some when cleaned up


----------



## JoeMcGlynn

I started making a chest to hold my saws this weekend. Ultimately I plan to build a larger tool chest that will hold all of my handtools, but I need something in the meantime. And I wanted to practice dovetailing, I haven't quite "got it" yet, but I'm pleased with how this came together.

I'm going to make a tongue-and-groove bottom and a skirt next, then I'll figure out what I want to do for the lid. My thinking is that I'll make a saw bench next, and a small stand to hold this at the same height as the saw bench to hold the end of long boards.


----------



## need2boat

Joe,

That looks great. I've been practicing my DT's on some scrap wood while I figure out what I want to do.

Joe


----------



## dbray45

Looks good


----------



## RGtools

Looking good so far.


----------



## TechRedneck

Ok saw people, I usually hang with the hand plane crowd and have been following this thread cause I like the old hand tools.

I was in a local antique store and picked up a Disston D 20 skew back and with a little research dated it to the 1927 model year. 11 tpi i believe. The handle is in great shape and the blade only needs a little cleaning. The etching is visable (before cleaning). I thought the $15 they wanted was fair. Thing is, they had about five more Disstons all for the same price. Is this in the price range for used saws? Should I go get the remainder of the lot?


----------



## RGtools

My answer is purely functional…how many saws do you need and what does you storage look like? (one decent rip and one crosscut does the job for me)

Nice score on the d 20.


----------



## dbray45

I agree with RG but then again, I have about 18 different saws (I think). I have very little duplication of saws by comparison to some but I have picked them for their purpose. I have to say that I use the LeeValley dovetail saws the least and like them the most - why - because they are 20tpi and even though I have the files to sharpen them, seeing the teeth is a pain.

Ever since I figured out how to sharpen my hand saws, using them has been a joy. They cut through whatever wood I put them to with minimum effort and when they tighten up, 3-4 minutes and they are back in service.

Having a couple of spares is not a bad thing. Having different saws, with different teeth is a good thing.


----------



## Brit

Well I'm going to sit on the fence on this one, so I'm typing this with a high-pitched voice.

If I was buying brand new saws, I would agree with RG.

However as you know, I choose to go the secondhand route (apart from my three Gramercy saws  ). That enabled me to buy a lot more saws which I will be sharpening to task. Saws to cut quickly where finish isn't important. Saws to cut slowly where finish is important. Saws to cut softwood and saws to cut hardwood. It also enables me to play with different rake and fleam angles and compare the results.

Did you buy that? No! Ok, then I guess I have to come clean and say that I just like saws. Shoot me.


----------



## donwilwol

I agree with Andy. This same discussion is going on about hand planes on 2 separate threads. "By a #62, its the only plane you need". Who only needs one plane!!

I like vintage tools. I want every one I can find for a cheap price that needs work. Some I sell after the fix up, some I keep, some I give away. Its what I do to forget about what I do when I need to forget about what I do.

Saw, planes, chisels, hammers, it doesn't matter.

Edit: forgot workmates


----------



## Brit

Check out my new tag line Don.


----------



## dbray45

Andy, can't disagree. Thats why I started with 1 or 2 and now have 18. If I were to admit this to my wife, she would be watching me closer - so I am in denial. I am going to an antique show next week and I am sure a saw and plane will follow me home.


----------



## donwilwol

Andy, I literally laughed out loud.


----------



## RGtools

I figured we were just talking panel saws. Come to think of it I have 4 of those…crap 6. 2 no 3 bowsaws, and 3 back saws. They all have there purpose….however, when I take stock of the ones that see everyday use in the shop…My list is as follows.

Coarse Panel saw for Ripping.
Medium Crosscut saw for crosscuts (this saw can be pressed to make finishing cuts if needed).
Dovetail saw for most joinery, and finish crosscuts.
Bowsaw with a tenon cutting blade and and a curve cutting blade for larger joinery and of course curves.
Coping saw (my god why did it take my 5 years to by a $15 Olson) clearing DT waste and cutting curves in thin material.

The rest of the saws I have are specialty situations that I only run into once a year or so (I have one panel saw for crosscutting wet lumber, and one intended used for reclamation work where I would cry if I hit a nail with one of my nicer saws).

Point is you only need a handful of saws but you are likely to end up with a few spares. If you have the space grab them all…at worst they are sharpening practice to give to your friends later.


----------



## TechRedneck

Thanks guys, I have been waiting (too long) to get that Veritas Apron plane but keep buying the old hand tools instead. I need something for end grain and cleanup. However, when I was doing my bench build I actually had to clean up grandpa's old Atkins saw and used it. That's what got me into the hand saws. I now have a panel saw, the D20, a new Veritas Dovetail saw, fret saw and coping saw. I have a power scroll saw that is hardly used.

To be honest, my most used saw is the Milwaukee 12" SCMS. It can cut boards over 1' wide and is dialed in near perfect with a smooth finish. However… sometimes you have to cut something that won't fit. For the most part I like power tools to get the stock cut to within 1/8" or less.

I have to admit however.. This vintage hand tool stuff is addictive and fun. I may go back and get one more of those Disstons with a different tooth pattern and call it a day. ...or not ; ) When it came to drilling the dog holes in the new workbench, I used my grandfathers Stanley Brace and a bit I picked up for 50 cents at an antique store. It actually worked better than a power drill and forstner bit.

Yes Brit.. I read your blog and was hooked, now I have a full set of vintage bits, sharpened them up and use them.


----------



## need2boat

I would agree with what's been said. I think you could get along with 2 or 3 hand saws and 2 or 3 back saws. I would argue through you'd need 10 or so to figure out which ones to keep.

I easily have over 2 dozen saws, some restored, some in the process, others just for parts. I tend to buy older ones that need a bit of work. I'm getting better at finding cleaner examples but still have a weakness for anything out of the ordinary.

This isn't a great picture but here's the ones currently on deck. I just finished filing a 18" simmons 9ppi cross that way cool. It's like a little D-8 but nicer etch and handle. I'm also a sucker for panel saws. the handles fit med sized hands better.










Joe


----------



## TechRedneck

Jheeze Joe.. you have the bug! Saw sickness!


----------



## need2boat

I don't have access to a shop during the week like most guys but I can work on filing for a few hours at night. I mix it up with some practice on dove tails and such. What I've found with old things is you strike while the iron is hot. I bought a bunch of these at the same time. Like I said not everyone is perfect.. .


----------



## Brit

*RG* - I knew you were a collector really. 

*Tech* - That brace blog has got a lot to answer for. I've had so many PMs asking for advice or if I think a particular brace on ebay is worth buying.

*Joe* - That's going to keep you busy. I've still got to restore my bigger saws, but I'm going to build a saw vise and sharpen all the backsaws first just to mix it up a bit. As much as I enjoy bringing tools back to life, it can get a bit monotonous.


----------



## JoeMcGlynn

I just picked up this diston 10", I'm going to clean it up to use for cutting tenons. It's pretty crusty and has a chip out of the top horn. The good thing about starting with something this rough is that pretty much anything will make it better.


----------



## need2boat

Plus you don't have a tone invested in it. plusx2 with a back saw you can pull the plate from the back and install a new one.

Joe


----------



## JoeMcGlynn

I didn't notice until last night that there is a chunk missing out of the handle right by the spine in addition to the chip out of the horn. That is going to be tricky to fix. But at Joe said, I haven't got a lot of money in it so I can't go too far off.


----------



## Brit

JoeMcGlynn - That should be easy enough to fix. Remove the handle and using a sharp chisel (about 1"), pare the break so that the surface is flat. Then glue and clamp another piece of over-sized wood to it tacking care to align the grain correctly and maintain the gap for the spine. Once dry, rasp and file it to match the chamfer on the other side. The handle is probably made from apple since it is a Disston.


----------



## donwilwol

I just ordered "Keeping the Cutting Edge: Setting and Sharpening Hand and Power Saws" and a clamp on magnifier -lamp. Hopefully between these two things I can improve my sharpening skills a bit.

I think Andy's technique should work for fixing that saw. It should turn out very well.


----------



## need2boat

I have the DVD sharpen your handsaws with ron herman and thought it was quite good. He changes files which is something I've found doesn't work for me but whats nice is Ron doesn't get hung up on all the details and nit picky things. He really just sharpens a few saws, talks about whats he's doing and you follows along.

I don't find a lot of Simonds saws around me but I picked this 18" No42 with apple wood handle, when I was in RI. I finished filing it last night and it's got a really nice etched plate after I cleaned it. Handle and nuts still needed to finished. I'm not fan of lead in or let in? blades where the blade goes into the handle but it kind works on this smaller saw. I really like the smaller handle size, it's perfect for my med sized hand.


----------



## Brit

That's a beauty Joe. I love that etch. How many teeth per inch is that?


----------



## BrandonW

That is a really sweet etching, Joe! Great score.


----------



## donwilwol

I've got one very similar Joe.


----------



## lysdexic

Beautiful saw. I would certainy be a "collector" of that saw.


----------



## need2boat

Thanks guys. Its a 9ppi, i filed it CC with 20 degrees of fleam

JFF


----------



## terryR

Hi guys, I'm new to LJ and this thread, but want to learn all I can about restoring these old saws…I love it, and you already know why…

OK, I'm working a pre-1940 Disston #4 Backsaw (I think!) Here's my version of the Beech handle nearly completed:









sorry for asking a newbie question, but how do you guys restore the brass hardware? I've tried reading all 1100+ posts on this thread…but got lost. 

Also, can anyone recommend a good supplier of solid brass replacement hardware? on the US side of the pond? Thanks, and keep up the great inspiration!!!
tr


----------



## Brit

Hi Terry,

Glad you found your way here. For the brass I just use Brasso brass cleaner and an old toothbrush. The Disston brassware is usually quite easy to clean. Old split nuts on some other saws can take a while though. Any brass cleaner will do the job.

If you want Disston replacement hardware, you will either have to look out for what you need on ebay or buy an old junk saw that you can steal the hardware from. Wenzloff and sons sell nice hardware, but you will need to pare the holes so they take the square shank of their screws and you'll probably also need to deepen the counter-bored holes too.


----------



## donwilwol

Andy is the resident expert, but I usually hit the hardware on the buffer. It heats up pretty quick so I wear leather glove and rotate from one to another. What doesn't clean up and can't be reached by the buffer, I have a fine wire brush on an old electric motor that does the trick.

And welcome to LJ and the thread. Newbie questions are always welcome. God knows I've asked my share.


----------



## ksSlim

Lemon juice and salt will do the trick on brass. Old fashion glass, juice of 2 lemons, tsp salt, toss in let soak 8hrs.
Brush with old teeth brush. If more cleaning needed, repeat. High polish, crushed salt and lemon on flannel cloth.


----------



## Brit

Well if we're going old school vinegar or tomatoe ketchup will also clean brass, but please resist the temptation to lick it off afterwards.


----------



## donwilwol

Lemon juice and salt? Who would have thought. Its amazing the stuff you can learn here. I WILL be testing that out.


----------



## donwilwol

Andy, can we do anything other than old school?


----------



## Brit

*Joe* - I see you've been busy on Backsaw.net. I hope you get what you need to make your saws. I just uploaded my saws there. The site was very useful when I was researching the saws, so I wanted to give something back to hopefully help future researchers.


----------



## Brit

By the way Terry, you did a nice job on that Disston handle.


----------



## terryR

Lemon juice, salt, vinegar, ketchup??? that's starting to sound like a marinade…hey, a medallion marinade. 

Thanks for the answers and comments everyone! I'll be sure to post before and after photos of this #4 Backsaw…should've been finished already, but SWMBO wants a mile of fencing for her new goat farm!!!


----------



## need2boat

Andy,

I'm not sure how active I'd call it. Its a great group of people but finding supplies to repair a backsaw or make another ones has been way more energy then I would have thought. At this point I think I'm in good shape.

Joe


----------



## Brit

Good luck with that fence *Terry*. Are they Myotonic Fainting Goats? We like those on LJs.

*Joe *- I can imagine. You wouldn't think it would be that difficult would you?


----------



## BrandonW

Welcome, Terry.

Here's a list of home-made "recipes" for cleaning brass:

http://www.goodhousekeeping.com/home/heloise/best-way-to-polish-brass

I generally use Brasso like Andy--sometimes you have to soak the stuff over night, and it works like a charm. It just has a horribly strong ammonia smell, so be prepared for that.


----------



## donwilwol

Hey Al, some more goats. Terry, they're not the fainting kind are they?

I find a little Jack goes well with the marinade. The jack goes in me though. Muscles don't hurt as bad, and the saw starts to look much better. Of course you wake up the next day and have to start over.

I've got to many projects backed up again. Saw sharpening, A new Stanley 5 1/2 coming and this yesterday. And of course I'm flying into a snow storm this afternoon, literally.


----------



## Dcase

To clean old brass I just fold up little pieces of sandpaper and sand all the little nuts and bolts by hand. After I have sanded with 2000 grit wet/dry paper I will then use brass polish. I sometimes use a wire wheel in my drill press but I prefer doing by hand. Just my style I guess.

Joe, that Disston saw looks a lot like mine did before I restored it. I have posted pics of it on here before but here it is again… I still consider this my very best tool restoration.









and after









The other saw in the first picture is a GH Bishop #8 backsaw. The GH Bishop is my favorite saw. Here is that one restored.


----------



## Brit




----------



## JoeMcGlynn

Very nice Dan! I'm looking forward to cleaning mine up.


----------



## RGtools

Terry. fellow Goat owner…a mile of fencing to keep goats in? That is going to be interesting

Gets
Out
A
Ton


----------



## terryR

Myotonic Fainting Goats? huh? looks like I have more reading ahead. 

*Dan*, those are 2 sweet looking saws! I just tried some sandpaper to clean up some old brass…works like a charm! thanks! Those nicks left from someone's flathead screwdriver just drive me nuts…they gotta go!

*RG*, really it's closer to 4500 feet of fence…looks like a mile from my shoes! The problem goats get eaten and turned into rawhide…at least, that's the plan. 

tr


----------



## RGtools

I just use the biggest problem goat as a fence tester. My milkers are a bit too valuable to eat…and wethers don't have a ton of meat on them (nigerian dwarfs). I would rather take down a turkey if I am looking for dinner.

Dan, I forgot to mention…those are beautiful. Andy said it best though.


----------



## BrandonW

A stair saw. Now that seems like a fun project to make. Anyone here ever make one? I founds some kits here:

http://www.woodcentral.com/woodworking/forum/classifieds.pl/md/read/id/14448/


----------



## JoeMcGlynn

I haven't made one, but it's on the list. Like this…


----------



## RGtools

A stair saw is on my list of "I want to make" tools…it would make sliding dovetails a bit more easy to execute.


----------



## AnthonyReed

What advantage would a stair saw have over a backsaw for sliding dovetails? Having a grip at the toe of the saw?


----------



## RGtools

Regulated depth of cut…something I kind of eyeball with the dovetail saw. Also you could customize the relief on the side that stops the cut to be at an angle that helps you line up your angle with say…the sole of a dovetail plane (that's my theory anyway).

But that not really needed unless you have a case with a lot of sliding DT's.

Plus they are just cool.


----------



## AnthonyReed

That makes perfect sense. Thanks Ryan.

Welcome Terry.

That is an Andy level restore there Dan. You really did a beautiful job.


----------



## donwilwol

Brandon, I've thought about making a stair saw. I can see its benefit for dados and such. I've yet to see one in the wild, but I would certainly grab it it if found it.


----------



## Brit

Is it just me or does anyone else think that stairs saws were modelled after Scottish Terriers?


----------



## donwilwol

Andy….its just you.


----------



## BrandonW

LOL, Andy, you should make a Scottish Terrier stair saw-that'd be sweet.


----------



## RGtools

I elect Mads to make it…


----------



## BrandonW

We should do a group project of making a saw. Someone cuts the plate. Another person cuts the teeth. Another person sharpens the saw. Someone makes the handle. Someone installs the saw plate to the handle. Someone puts the final finish on the saw.

I elect myself to put the finish on the saw-that way I can keep it.


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## JoeMcGlynn

Or a group build…that might be more interesting. Then everyone gets a saw, and they can detail it as they like.

Maybe a extra-fine toothed dovetail saw, along the lines of the Gramercy Tools model=?










Or maybe a Veneer saw at the other end of the spectrum?


----------



## BrandonW

Wow, that Veneer saw would take some serious skill to cut thin pieces of veneer from a log-especially while wearing those pants!


----------



## JoeMcGlynn

The pants could be a separate project


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## donwilwol

i like the vise! And they get to wear cool hats.


----------



## Brit

I bet they never used a vise like that. Every time they pulled or pushed, the log would fall over. They'd be better off with a concave jaw.


----------



## BrandonW

That's true, or they would at least have to flatten the edges of the log to give the vise more surface area to work.

On a side note, this does look like a "moxon" vise. Better show it to Chris Schwarz! ;-)


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## bandit571

Stair builder's saw Disston No.6 Price per Doz. @$18.00 (1/2 dozen in a box)

Bostwick Braun Catalog #43 (1948)


----------



## RGtools

Bandit…that was cruel. I got really excited until I saw 1948. I should know better.


----------



## Brit

This poor guy had a bad experience. Can anyone help him out:

http://lumberjocks.com/topics/34540#reply-397099


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## bandit571

Picked up a handsaw today, it belonged to my late dad. Etch is still visable . Looks like a T-1 TOWNSMAN by DISSTON 8 points Disston Division H. K. Porter Inc

Three sawnuts, plus medallion in chrome. Light coloured hand for the handle, no carving on handle. Very little rust. Blade is nice and straight. Might not be an "oldie', but seems to be in very good shape.

IF you need a photo or two, let me know.


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## BrandonW

OF COURSE we need a photo, Bandit. I'm sure that saw will always have a special place in your heart. I know the tools that belonged to my late father are super special.


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## bandit571

OK, here a few shots









handle view









a close-up









the etch









an overall view.


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## carguy460

Bandit - family tools are treasures!!! That saw looks in pretty good shape…I wish my inherited tools looked like that!


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## JoeMcGlynn

I fixed up the handle on my miter box saw this weekend. Still putting finish on it, it's a bit darker and shinier now.

Before:









After re-shaping and a first coat of oil:


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## Bertha

MI2 Delicate smaller rosewood saw with bone toggle; an American made tool that was found in southeastern Massachusetts, the turned knobs join almost seamlessly with a turning at the bottom of the arm; the original stretcher is a darker mahogany, the overall length is 16"; the toggle is not original to the saw, it's an old piece of bone and is appropriate to its design and vintage; a very pretty tool; top: http://www.supertool.com/forsale/mar/t3.jpg http://www.supertool.com/forsale/mar/t3a.jpg $190.00


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## Brit

That's gorgeous Al. A really beautifully shaped saw. I needed a bit of eye candy. I'm sanding the plate on the last of my backsaw restorations and my arms ar about to drop off. I must keep going though because I don't know how long the sun will last.


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## Bertha

Andy, that little saw really dropped my jaw. There's a closeup of the knobs, showing two delicate grooves. Very Shakerish. That bone toggle is a nice touch and the overall dimensions are wonderful. I've got a pocket full of money from my recent burglary and I should probably stay off Leach's listings


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## need2boat

Hey Guys.

Hope everyone had a good weekend. I didn't get much time in the shop, but did spend some time Sunday AM sharpening, not something I'm crazy about but once I get getting and everything underway it's not so bad.

I also finished putting the simonds back together. I got to say, I broken down and dug out a very old slow speed electric spindle motor that's I moved from my grandfathers house thinking SOME day I would use. Well I bought a buffing wheel kit from eastwood and was really amazed at how fast it was a shining up the brass. It's the best 25.00 I've spend in a log time. The electrical cord is a little worrysome but I'll put a new one on this week. 



























I also pulled a few saws I want to work on in the future. One of them is this Disston no7. I guess at some point the saw nut must have gone missing and it was replaced with a rivet. I like that he took the time to carve a symbol on it.


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## Brit

That's a beauty Joe. I really like it and there's nothing wrong with using a bit of power when it makes sense. I used a small belt sander on my backsaw plate today for the first time with a P80 grit belt. It did help get through the deep pits and score marks. I'm now working through the grits by hand to shine it up, then I've got the brass back to do. I'm really glad this is the last one because I need a break from restoring backsaws.


----------



## need2boat

Sanding the plates by far is the worst part of the process.

What thickness of plates are you finding most of your 12 or 14 backsaws. I'm sure they get thicker as they get bigger. I find most of the ones I've come across .020 or .025.

Joe


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## AnthonyReed

Al - "I've got a pocket full of money from my recent burglary and I should probably stay off Leach's listings:"

I know know the situation but out of context this sounds/reads really bad


----------



## Brit

Joe - They definitely get thicker as they get bigger. I don't know what I'm ending up with but I'll let you know. I think on the first restoration I measured that I'd removed about 2 1/2 thou once I'd finished sanding. This last saw was really rough and I think I've turned it into a thin plated saw. LN sells a thin plate tenon saw, so why shouldn't I have one too. 

I'll get back to you on the thicknesses.


----------



## need2boat

I didn't put much thought into the thickness of the plate and such but after ordering some replacement plate for 2 backsaw saws plus what I learned in making one it's a little more top of mind.

I can't say I'm leaning one way or the other but I do notice some of the manufactures are making some really thin plate DT saws like .015. and the 12" backsaw I made with Matt was a .020. That's a .005 thiner then my other 12 back saws. One issue I guess to consider is heat build up.

I think the trend was to have thinner plates then when Disston cranked up production they went thicker again and now people are swinging back. Once I find a few back, slotted or bent I I'd like to try my hand at making a few DT saws and seeing the difference.

Joe


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## Bertha

*I know know the situation but out of context this sounds/reads really bad *

Who knew that Leach guy kept so much cash in his house


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## Brit

I think that if you can saw properly, you are better off with a thinner plate. The theory is that it is less wood to remove and so cuts faster. The fact that it leaves a thinner kerf is neither here nor there, since the wood to one side of a cut is generally going to be removed. I doubt you would notice much difference between a .018 plate and a .015 plate on a dovetail saw though. Of course you can have a saw with a thinner plate, but if you then over-set the teeth, you're removing the same amount of wood anyway.

It's all relative.


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## need2boat

*Al*, when I was at the backsaw class, we spent 8 hours making nut jokes. Like who does't like sanded nuts. be careful with my nuts. and so on. I love it. so don't make fun of my nuts. I do the best I can with them.

*Andy*. the thing about the thiner is also when your transporting them they are way easier to bend. The thinner plates like my used LN DT saw I thought was also harder to sharpen. I also like to use a coping saw over the jewelers but now I guess I'm splitting hairs.

I like the .018 but it's hard to find saw plate for it. The guy most people seem to use, stocks. .15.20.25.32.34. so I plan to use the .020

Joe


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## Bertha

^lol. I'm game for locker room humor any time


----------



## bandit571

For those of you out and about in my area, Boo Coo handsaws at three thrift stores in my little town. Just look up the Shelby County Courthouse, there are two side by side ON court and main, and the other is on Poplar and main. Each place has about a dozen handsaws, and even a couple wood handled hacksaws. Prices range from $2 ea, to $5 ea. all sizes. Sorry,no backsaws were seen today. I was out Rust "Scouting" today. Waiting on payday to go back. Got a few wood-bodied planes as well. Including a LARGE rabbet plane, with a skewed iron. Hoping they are still around when I can get back down the street. Just 7 blocks away…..........


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## ShipWreck

A question for the older guys about sharpening?

I have the typical "over 50 syndrone". Is there a good magnifying glass for sharpening? I take 1 look at the fine teeth on a dovetail saw and everything blurs together.


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## donwilwol

Shipwreck I have the same problem. I just bought this. I haven't really used it yet, but I have set it up to "test" it. It seems like it will help a lot.


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## need2boat

I've used both a light with magnifier ring in it and Magni-Focuser®

I don't normally wear glasses but I find the Magni Focuser to work well. It take a little getting used to but I do like it. It also helps to throw all the light you can find on the saw. ;-) I've only done two 16 ppi saws and both were rip so that helped as well.

Joe


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## Brit

I would prefer the sort that Don just bought. Ideally, I'd like one that magnifys 5x. For the moment though, I'm going to use what I've got which is a 6" magnifying glass on a gooseneck which has a heavy base. I'll be sharpening outside so I'm hoping light won't be an issue. I'm definitely getting one with a light at some point though.

I've used the head band type in the past and I find they give me a headache. Maybe it's because I don't have much hair on my head.


----------



## racerglen

Use your watch cap for padding Andy..

;-)


----------



## ShipWreck

Thx guys.


----------



## Brit

Good idea Glen.

Since I'll be sharpening in the garden, I must remember not to leave the magnifying glass in line with the sun. I'd hate to set fire to my Workmate. LOL. Not.


----------



## donwilwol

just a hunk, a hunk of burning love.


----------



## dbray45

ShipWreck - I also put layout dye on the teeth so I know which ones I have filed.


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## need2boat

The thing about using the light as a magnifier is you can adjust it independently. I think you'll quickly find when sharpening the adjustment of the light and the relationship to where you need to look are wildly different. ;-) You could also use a second light but either way you'll be banging the two light together. . . as you adjust.

I had issues with using the head band clamp thing and I have hair so that's not the issue. What I found was you just need to flip it up when not in use. The reason I was getting a headache was my eye were constantly readjusting as I moved my head. I still really only use it for small teeth but I'm getting better with it as time goes on.

I think long term you'll find other uses. It's kind of like the first time you use a head lamp when camping. you still see guys with flashlights but anyone who does a good deal of camping will tell you he wouldn't go back.

Joe


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## bandit571

I was out on a "Rust Scout Mission" today. I happen to walk past one of the REAL hardware stores in town ( we have two) and decided to look around. One item caught my wandering eye.

A saw handle "blank" Pre-finished, and even has a slot for a blade to slide into. @ $4.99 ea. However, No holes were drilled. Common?

Kind of a blond colour. About the same as that Disston Townsman I have on hand. No carving at all, either.

Hmmm, I happen to know the where abouts of about 20 old, rusty saws ( THREE SECRET LOCATIONS), Maybe used this as a starting point for ONE restore? Seeings how they have just ONE in stock…..


----------



## BrandonW

I've seen those at a couple of Ace hardwares-nothing fancy or special about the replacement handles, but they'll work in a bind.


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## bandit571

One COULD do a little carving, and such enhancements. Strip the factory finish, add whatever you like to it. Some people have to start Somewhere…....

As for those "rust-buckets": ALL lengths, from short little saws to BIG ( I mean BIG) Rip saws. prices are between $2 (shorty ones0 to $5 for those big fellows. Handles on most of them? Need a lot of work, or just a new one. There ARE some, however that just need a good clean-up. Some have all the saw nuts, some have a couple( with REGULAR nuts and bolts sticking through) most do have a medallion. Between that ACE handle and a NASTY wreck of a handle, there might be a restore for less than $10. Hmmmm?


----------



## terryR

As promised, here are a few photos of my FIRST saw restoration; I believe this little guy to be a 1932-1939 Disston #4 Backsaw from the medallion and the beech handle.










The first lesson I learned is to NOT buy an old saw that has engraved initials in the saw's back! My goodness…this one had initials carved in the handle and back.

So, I sanded the handle back to 'ground zero' and spiced up the shape a bit, too. The handle was sanded to 1500 grit and finished with one coat of Danish Oil (dark brown), then a coat of clear Danish Oil, then wax.

The brass was sanded from 220 grit to 1500, then treated with 3M Marine metal polish.

And the saw plate/back were sanded forever to remove as much pitting as my shoulders and wrists could stand. Wow, they really DID use hard steel for these old saws, huh?



















I don't really like the shiny plate on the finished saw…really shows the pitting I failed to remove…will have to look for gun blue for the next one…and prepare mentally for more sanding!


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## JoeMcGlynn

Looks great Terry, what an improvement! I like how your added the lambs tongue, I'll have to do that on the one I'm playing with right now. I had to fix a couple of "chips", looks pretty terrible at this point.


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## Brit

You should be very proud of that Disston Terry. You did a stunning job. I really like the re-shaping of the handle. I'll give you a tip if you want to take some of the shine out of the plate. Drip some 3-IN-ONE oil over the plate and spread it around with your finger to cover the whole of one side, then take some 0000 steel wool and rub it along the plate with moderate pressure for a couple of minutes covering the whole surface. Use full length strokes. The oil will give it a more even satin sheen, but you'll retain the surface finish quality. It looks better if there is still some pitting in the steel.


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## donwilwol

Terry, great restore. I'm with Andy, you improved the handle a great deal.


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## Brit

Terry mentioned not buying a saw with engraved initials in the spine. I haven't encountered that, but I think all but one of the backsaws I've recently restored had the owners name stamped on them. On the last saw I restored, there were eight name stamps. Two on either side of the spine and two on either side of the handle. They can be a pain when you're restoring tools, but tools were expensive and theft was commonplace in those days, so I can understand why they did it. Here's a couple of examples from the records of the Old Bailey. The first on served time in Newgate prison, the second was publically whipped and the third one was sentenced to death.

http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=t17980523-39&div=t17980523-39
http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=t18061029-8&div=t18061029-8
http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=t17720603-2&div=t17720603-2&terms=dove%20tail%20saw#highlight


----------



## terryR

Thanks for the encouragement everyone…I'm a newbie and don't want to ruin these old saws. I'm tempted to use a belt sander to help remove pits, but am scared of thinning the plate too much…and the resulting heat damaging the steel's hardness. Can I wet sand with oil?

*Andy* I happen to have that 3-IN-ONE oil in the shop…will try it later today…after a trip to town for a new lawnmower…yee-haw! 

*Joe* that handle looks pretty good to me…you've already accomplished the part that would scare me the most! Good luck!!!

Can anyone recommend a good book to teach me the art of sharpening these restored saws? Or anyone know of classes I can attend near the southeast US? I'd love to build a new one! Almost bought the Dovetail kit offered from Gramercy for fun, but the blade doesn't come etched…bummer.


----------



## JoeMcGlynn

Terry, absolutely on the wet sanding. I use WD-40, 3-in-1 might be too thick. You want it to lubricate and help float away swarf. I use wet/dry sandpaper, but it goes dull fairly quickly. If you want to remove the pits use a hard sanding block and start with maybe 120ish if you have significant pits you want to remove. Stick with coarse paper until you have only the 120 grit scratches to clean up then work your way up to finer grits.

Or you can use a soft sanding pad and start with a finer grit. The softer pad will tend to follow the surface instead of leveling it, and will help hide the pits.

An advantage of a highly reflective saw plate is that you can use the reflection of the board in the saw plate to judge if you have the saw square to the cut.

On mine I'm probably going to do a satin finish on the plate and a finer finish on the saw back.


----------



## terryR

More eye candy…I bought 2 saws last week…










The orange one is mostly plastic…but I needed a smaller saw than my 3hp Husky…cost $300…hope it lasts this year!

The Simmons back saw in the foreground is a whopping 29" long…cost 1/10th as much as is…I'm pretty sure it will outlast me!


----------



## dbray45

The Mitre saw that I recently bought has the name Carl Pullman enscribed on the blade. I am going to try to get pictures of it before I clean it up. The process could remove it.

I have a couple of saws that have names or initials put into them. All part of the character.


----------



## Brit

Just to clarify, I was saying use the 3-IN-ONE oil together with 0000 steel wool to even out the sheen and dull it a little bit. You will still see enough of a reflection to line up your cut. I don't use oil of any kind when sanding the pits out of a plate. I use Aluminium Oxide paper starting at P80 grit. P80 is where the grunt work is done and I don't stop using P80 until I've sanded the pits as much as I think I need to. Then I go up through the grits P120, P180, P240, P320 then P400. Then I use the 3-IN-ONE oil with steel wool.


----------



## Brit

...and that is a lovely miter saw you've found there Terry.


----------



## Brit

Terry to be honest, the best sharpening tutorial I've come across is free to download from the online library at Vintagesaws.com. It is called 'Saw Filing - A Beginner's Primer'.


----------



## RGtools

That's where I first learned.


----------



## JoeMcGlynn

I got the rough shaping done on my handle, it was pretty straightforward. More pics on my blog.

Any one have suggestions on finishing so that the patched areas aren't so obvious? Bleach the original wood? Stain? Flat black spray paint?


----------



## Brit

Looking good Joe.


----------



## racerglen

Well done Joe !
Please, no rattle can for that beauty !


----------



## terryR

Thanks for the link, Andy, I sorta stumbled across it yesterday while reading back through the 1200+ posts on this thread.  I look forward to your saw sharpening blogs since you claim to be a newbie at that skill. I have no doubt you'll master the task, and teach most of us a thing or two…

Joe, please post your finishing techniques for that lovely handle when you figure out how to match colors…I have the exact handle with broken horn waiting in line for restoration.


----------



## donwilwol

Terry, there is a link in my original post to my Hand Saw restore references. I think most of the links from this thread are in there.


----------



## bandit571

While out and out this morning, Rust hunting, found a little 10" backsaw, hiding in a box. Kind of a tease, just sticking a handle up in the air. Or, a part of a handle.









Underneath all that rust, is a blue steel balde and back. No medallion, and one of the sawnuts ( maybe where the medallion WAS) is just a bolt and nut.









Now the Detective work begins. Shape of handle when "new"?

Note: In the store with the Stanley handyman plane, was a big old rip saw, with a thumbhole handle! Just $2!... May have to go back for that one…...


----------



## terryR

Thanks, Don, just what I was looking for!

Looks like this thread is THE BOOK for saw restoration…thanks for keeping up the 'index' portion!


----------



## Brit

Yeah thanks Don. You da man!


----------



## bandit571

Thumbhole rip saw: not worth it for me. bottom half is gone, two of the three sawnuts are also MIA. Two good sawnuts, and a Medallion aren't enough for me. I did find both a match for that Broken handle saw, and it's "miter-box". Yes, a 10" miter saw. Miter box is just three pieces of hardwood. The "match" was in the other thrift store, with grain of wheat carvings, and a medallion on the handle. It was part of a "set". This short saw, a 20+" saw, and an all metal miter box. $10!!!!. I'll have to pass, this time around, budget, you know.


----------



## donwilwol

Bandit, you actually found a saw in worse shape that the back saw?


----------



## bandit571

actually, it was. Someone in this area loves to replace sawnuts with….....plain bolts and nuts! Must hang them up on the outside of the barn door, as well. Got more rust than a Ford falcon. I'm not that good at making handles, just yet. I can give the address to these stores, IF someone wants to try their luck with them….


----------



## bandit571

tried my hand at a saw handle for that little miter saw.









Still had some 4/4 Black Walnut in the shop. Got things laid out, cut out, and rough shaped…









Got to the point of chiseling that little "V" inside the handle…. and CRACK!. Now I'm on the way to pick up some wood glue…...


----------



## bandit571

Got the handle glued up, later I will start to shape things up. Drilling holes should be alright , not IF I can find a third Brass-plated sawnut. As for any more carving…...ah nope, not at this time. While looking through the old files in my toolbox…...Late Father-in-laws…Found a couple REAL OLD saw files. Might be worth the trouble to use them? let's see, THREE backsaws…......


----------



## BrandonW

Check out this project posted yesterday. It's a re-sculptured saw hand and I think the guy did a great job. He's new on LJ so send him your greetings:

http://lumberjocks.com/projects/62992


----------



## JoeMcGlynn

I sanded and started refinishing the handle on my Disston "tenon" saw. Actually this is probably a dovetail saw given the fine ppi. I think I'll re-tooth it for 10 or 11.

I used some cherry gel stain to try to blend the patches with the rest of the handle (more stain on the patches). One coat of BLO and one coat of garnet shellac at this point. I'm going to build up enough shellac to have a nice deep gloss.


----------



## Brit

I had to go back and remind myself where the repair was Joe. Nice job!


----------



## BrandonW

Excellent work, Joe. Those repairs are seamless and that stain looks pretty nice as well!


----------



## donwilwol

That's nice work Joe. I had to scroll back as well to look. Once you know where they are you can see them, but it would take a pretty keen eye to just pick them out.


----------



## bandit571

As for my "Rust Hunter Saw", we're coming along about "normal" for my little shop:









Black walnut (and it STINKS when I'm working on it) for the handle. Blade does need some clean-up, and a good sharpening:









Checking through my late father-in-law's tool "kit', found a couple OLD saw files, never been used! Just have to rig up a vise…..

Who sells sawnuts? The Brass ones, NON-split nut kind? I have two I can use but, i bloody well won't use the nut & Bolt that was the third one.


----------



## BrandonW

Bandit, check ebay for saw nuts. I seem them there from time to time. Otherwise, Bad Axe:

http://www.badaxetoolworks.com/bad-axe-fasteners.html


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Joe, that is simply unbelievable! Very, very nice! And Bandit, I can't wait to see that one brought back to life!

Here's my dollar saw from last weekend. First, some jerk lifted the medallion already…










A great shape and condition is very good. The etch is faint but legible. Managed to get a decent pic, too:










Has anyone any insight on Pittsburgh Penn sawmakers? The one is "The Orion Saw", Warranted, with Special Fine Steel… 10tpi, rip… 26" blade with skew back


----------



## bandit571

backsaw:









Dark walnut for a handle. medallion says warrented superior. Still needs some finish on it.

Caught a D8 for $2 in the wild the other day. been re-habbing the old skew-backed thumbhole rip saw (5-1/2 ppi) since it had a chunk missing from the handle. Got the blade all clean and shiny, even can see (somewhat) the second etch with henry Disston's signiture under it. A look at the repair, so far:









Chunk is from the backsaw's broken handle. i do tend to "recycle' wood in the shop.


----------



## BrandonW

Bandit, the D8 should clean up nicely. Hopefully you can get those colors to blend. Not sure if I'm a huge fan the new backsaw handle-the hole looks a little big and uncomfortable-but to each his own.


----------



## donwilwol

That thumb hole D8 is alluring.


----------



## thedude50

When i started reading this thread it made me wonder where the hell is wane c I miss his humor and input

any way I have been colecting saws for about a year and am having Matt cianci restore my great grandfathers old saw its an old diston i believe a d7 it is worn out and will require 200 dollars worth of work to get it back into any kind of shape to be used I was very taken by Matt and I asked MIm to write an article on our website on buying handsaws his article is great and seserves to be read by a lot more people so please stop by and read it http://thisoldworkshop.com/index.php/info-articles/121-matt-vintagesaw


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## need2boat

Guys How goes it. Looks like lots of good activity in the saw world. I've been busy at work and home, plus a little side lined with some backs issues.. getting old is overrated!

That said I did get a few saws moved into the done pile. Since everyone is hot on the d-8 I figured I'd get them done and have a good at working with them. One is a 5 and the other 5.5.









Disston D8 later style handle 5-1/2 ppi filed rip









Disston D8 later style handle









Disston D8 applewood handle older style handle 5ppi filed rip









Disston No 7 10ppi filed CC 15rake and 20 fleam









Disston No 7 handle. Horn replaced.









In the harsh light it's popping but in hand it's not bad. I may go back a glaze it a bit more if it bothers me.









This was one of my grandfathers saws and the plate was in great shape but like his other saws the handle need a good heal of work. The top horn and hook waa gone.









I took the time to darken the etch on the plate









The handle repair. This was the first time I've worked on replacing leafing. The wood is mahogany and it was really hard finding some that the grain was as tight. I do have a stand alone handle from a parts saw but couldn't take cutting it apart.

Joe


----------



## racerglen

Oh my, Joe you do NICE work !


----------



## AnthonyReed

Beautiful job Joe.


----------



## mochoa

Nice Joe!


----------



## BrandonW

Excellent work, Joe! Something we all can aspire to!


----------



## lysdexic

Beautiful Joe. Did you do any reshaping other than the repairs?

Also, I am struck at the difference in the two thumb hole handles. At first glance one would think they are the same but to us they are worlds apart. The old applewood is mesmerizingly attractive. The newer handle just leaves me disappointed in comparison. This is not a comment on Joes finishing job just the original styling from Disston. Also, the D-8 thumbhole that I have is the newer style. Do I try to shape it to pleasing aesthetics or do I leave it original?


----------



## bandit571

still working on my D8









Starting to look a little better

As for that "donor saw'. Medallion said "WARRENTED " SUPERIOR around an "Eagle'. Cleaning the blade (handle was trashed out) and starting to see an etch. Be a lot more clean up before i can tell WHAT it says. This is the saw with the plywood handle on board. The end of the saw plate is cut a might different thatn what I have seen before









There is also an "8" stamped right below the handle area. teeth need a bit of work, as well. I'll try to clean the plate up, and MAYBE make a new handle for it. Might be a good crosscut saw, afterall….


----------



## bandit571

I don't know….. what a thumbhole would look like on THIS saw plate? Choice of wood is up to me? Teeth are a might strange looking, know more after a jointing. Jeans are trashed, between all the rust, and a few tears from teeth that are SHARP, this pair will be a "work' pair of jeans….

I've been sitting out on the front porch, enjoying some 70 degree weather ( IN MARCH?) while sanding these saw plates down. NICE!!!!!!!


----------



## need2boat

lysdexic.

I tend to work like this.. . I pull the handle, put the saw nuts aside keeping them in order. Depending on if I'm working on other saws I will either work on handles or blades. Normally I wait till I have a few of each. If cleaning the blades I do that, check if I want to darken the etch, wax then put in a pile to sharpen.

I don't put the saws back together till after they are sharpened it's just easier for me to set teeth when the handle is off. I still sometimes need to go back and add more set. I must be the only guy who under sets teeth!!. You so often read about how there is WAY to much of it. I find that's true with older saws but often they are also way out of joint and by the time I have them good, it needs a little. I would guess these rip saws were last shaped and set 10-20 years ago and most likely were used in softwoods like pine. I tend to test cut in cheery because I have a good deal of med grade stuff and it requires a bit less set.

To the point on the handles. Yes I agree there is a good deal of difference between them newer style is just less shaped then the older. The older one I have is also smaller but they are different sizes so that could be it. I own one more that's at my shop and could look at compared to these two.

Personally if it were me I would sell what I had and buy what you wanted. Even if I take a small loss I'm happier in the end.

Joe
JFF


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## Brit

Lovely saws guys. Keep 'em comin'.


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## thedude50

I got a nice as found d8 that has a lovely patina I will take a picture tomorrow and post it the guy i got it from says it ius sharp so maybe its just that i am out of practice using a rip saw but i had one hell of a time getting my cuts to start I was ripping some dougfir jusst for practice i seem to be lacking in a good way to clamp and saw with this saw once i got it down low in my workmate250 and got it loaded in a upright position i was able to rip with ease but getting started really botherd me I go a book from disstan and i think my angle is ok but what is the real trick to starting a ripsaw I have no trouble with a crosscut saw so it shows that is where most of my expertise with hand saws lies in all honisty my line was pretty strait and would be able to plane it strait no bevel on the cut so the peice was square it was just hell to start I believe the saw is sharp because it cut so strait and fast what a pretty damn saw i thought i was getting a saw to restore but i dont have to touch it maybe ill wax it though to protect the steel from rust I also read matts article and went out a nd gor 3 nibed saws with lambs toungs that look good brass nuts but the squed back with the rest eludes me in fact i havent seen one saw with all the characteristics he said to look for and buying saws on ebay is worse than hand planes much harder to judge quality


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## Brit

Dude - The trick to starting a rip saw is to take the weight of the saw in your hand rather than letting the weight of the saw plate press down into the wood. The second thing to do is lower the handle so that the saw is more horizontal. Try this:

1) Get in a sawing position with the saw held with a three finger grip. The forefinger should be pointing straight ahead on the side of the handle.
2) Place tips of the thumb and forefinger of your free hand together and position them where you want to start your cut.
3) Push the side of the saw plate against the tips of your thumb and forefinger.
4) Lower the handle
5) Take the weight of the saw and push.
6) After half the saw plate is in the cut, raise the handle a bit more with each stroke until you are sawing at the correct angle for ripping.
7) Don't forget to breathe.


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## Brit

Like Need2boat, I have a desire to make my own backsaws one day. I've restored enough saws now to know what I want and I think my handle shaping skills are up to the task. One of the biggest problems is finding a supplier for the saw plate. You can buy it in rolls, but I don't want that much. So when I saw this on ebay, I snapped it up. Spring Steel CS95, 0.023" (tenon saw thickness) hardened, tempered and polished ready to go. 1m x 210mm. To buy it new would cost £60-£70. I got it for £30 + £3 shipping.


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## racerglen

And now we wait, remember to breath, just what will Andy create from a meter of beautiful steel ?
And will he now start hunting the brass for the back, or just start on teeth..?

Andy that's a whole lot of metal ! and a score as well on the price.
(funny, Canadian keyboards used to have the pound key, now it's just $..)


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## Brit

You'll have a long wait Glen.  I don't plan on making any saws for a while yet, but the steel was too good to pass up.


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## racerglen

MMmm, I know, "remember to breath" 
;-}
And yes, a half price deal's always a temptation !


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## terryR

Here is the replacement handle I've been working on for an ugly Disston…










Currently waiting on the BLO to dry before proceeding with poly.

OK, yes, I got a little carried away with the length of the lamb's tongue. But, this tote is going on a user, so when I knock the tongue off, I'll re-shape it smaller!


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## racerglen

That's a beaut Terry !
Walnut ?


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## BrandonW

Terry, that's beautiful work! I think I really like the protruding lambs tongue.

Andy, you should just buy a role and start making saws full time!

Stupid question, are all of the major quality saw manufacturers (Adria, Bad Axe, Lie-Nielsen etc.) using the same type of metal for the saw plate? Are there different grades of spring steel?


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## mochoa

Terry that is super nice, I like the gentle rounding over you have everywhere.


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## Brit

Terry - My hat is off to you sir. Fantastic work and you should be very proud of it. You've set the standard.

Brandon - Most of the major boys use Swedish Spring Steel with a high carbon content (95%) with the steel hardened to around RC52.


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## lysdexic

Terry,
That handle is beautiful and let me say that I certainly appreciate the work and skill that goes it into these. Now that I have spent some time reshaping a handle I now am aware of the the subtle design elements that separate a blocky, wooden handle from pleasing, carved art. But like all aesthetics it is never objective.

With your handle:
The horns are well tapered
There is no acute change in contour between the flat face/side and the curved portion.
I agree the lambs tongue is long but it looks great.
I think the tricky part is the geometric interface between the lams tongue and the "cheek". It is important to either preserve the line of the cheeek or establish a new one that flows unhindered. Yours accomplishes this. Yours appears that the lamb tongue flows through the "cheek" and effortlessly arises on the other side.

On this side of my handle you can see how the lamb's tongue "pushes" on the curve of the cheek. I need to reconcile this before I am done. The other side is not bad. Still you can see the acute transition between flat and curve. Also, my lambs tongue is still a little bulky.


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## donwilwol

Terry, I love that handle. That extra inside horn is the cats meow.

Scott. I think just a little more sanding to smooth the transition and you've got it.


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## Brit

*Scott* - I think the question of whether to have definite flats on the side of a saw handle or not is a matter of personal taste. Some people think they are more comfortable. Other people like them more rounded. I know that if you order a custom saw from Two Lawyers, one of the questions they ask you is which style would you prefer. Terry obviously has a great eye and the handle he has created is a work of art, but yours is nice too. If I was to critique it, I would say that:

1) The top horn should be thinned slightly so that it is the same thickness as the bottom horn. It actually would be better if the bottom horn was as thick as the top horn, but that's not an option now.
2) The lamb's tongue needs further refinement. You can actually come up quite thin on the sides of the lamb's tongue if you scallop the underside. That enables you to keep the strength afforded by more wood in the centre of the tongue, whilst giving the appearance of a dainty tongue when viewed from the side. Like this:










Don't feel you have to do this, I'm just putting it out there. Based on the work you've already done to it, I'm sure it will look great whatever you decide to do with it.


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## terryR

Thanks for the compliments, everyone…I was sure I'd be tarred and feathered for such an outlandish tongue! But, the artistic side of my brain is screaming for an outlet due to all this goat fencing nonsense…

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention the tote is black walnut…

Scott, Andy is right…of course…just a bit of file work and your tongue will be super! I love the triangular cross section of the tongue Andy just posted…gotta remember that one…


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## RGtools

I am learning a ton today. Drooling too…all the handles I see are gorgeous.

What are your saw-handle shaping tools of choice? I have recently become familiar with Auriou rasps and I want an excuse to buy a few more.

Here are a few somewhat silly questions, but I have not had the chance to do it. I would like to make a handle for an existing plate, what's a good way to tranfer the layout of the saw nut holes to the new pattern? I started with a pencil and traceline but there has got to be a more accurate way. Also whats a good way to kerf in the handle for the plate if you are not laminating the handle? Will the saw nuts take away a bit of slop or should I use a very thin kerf saw to cut this in?

Thanks.


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## bandit571

I guess I'll just HAVE to make a handle for the donor saw, now. Well, maybe. I have a new computer desk to figure out, and build. I do have a bit of old oak, and some other refined woods. Old desk has a split and broken leg, might as well build a new one, right>

What broke the leg? Might be from the weight of files from the dang Handplane thread.

New saw handle: Thumbhole? Or, a more "Regular" handle. Seems i have a "pattern" for both right now….

Thumbhole: Will be stripping off the old finish, and working from there. Clean slate, that way. Backsaw handle is just the right size for MY hands to hold him. Needs a trip to the finishing room. Wiil go along with the other handle(s) when they are ready.

Off to fleabay, I'm on the Rust hunt Scout, again…...


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## Brit

Ryan - The saw plate should be a tight fit in the kerf. You don't want any play. Ideally, you want an interferance fit meaning you should have to wiggle it a bit to slide it in. Saw nuts will close the cheeks slightly, but it isn't their job to do that and a sloppy plate will always be a sloppy plate. Apart from holding the handle on, the job of the saw nuts (which should fit the holes in the plate perfectly) is to stop the saw plate moving up and down.

You need a saw that will cut a kerf the same thickness as the saw plate.


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## terryR

Ryan, I traced the saw plate on a piece of paper being careful to get the holes correct, then drew my new handle on the same piece of paper…right over the saw plate. Next, used transfer paper to place the holes and outline of my handle on the new piece of walnut…tape helps keep the transfer paper and original drawing from moving. seems to work for me if I go slow…

also, I use a hacksaw with sharp blade to cut out the slot in the handle to allow the saw's plate. Sometimes a bit of sandpaper is needed to make room for the plate, but I shoot for a tight fit. I'm just lucky my hacksaw blades are close to 0.020".

good luck!


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## Brit

Ryan - Sorry I meant to add that what a lot of people do when making a new saw is to use the saw plate to cut the kerf after the teeth have been shaped, but before any set is applied. That ensures the plate will fit perfectly.


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## RGtools

Brit…unless you have a tapered plate…but close enough, right?

The hacksaw seems like a good idea to me.

Thanks guys for the info.


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## Brit

Ryan - The tapered plate doesn't actually come into it. The thickness of the plate at the toothline is the same as the thickness of the plate that fits in the kerf of the handle. Tapering takes the following pattern:


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## BrandonW

Never seen a tapered saw plate before (unless it was mentioned here and I already forgot about it!). So is it designed basically to make the saw fit smoother in the kerf and not get stuck?


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## donwilwol

Brandon, it was mentioned here before but it was called hollow ground. I remember because I had to look it up to see what it meant.


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## Brit

Brandon - A tapered plate is of uniform thickness along the toothed edge and near the handle, but the thickness of the plate is gradually reduced from the teeth towards the back edge and from the handle towards the toe. It has two advantages. Firstly, you need less set because you already have some clearance due to the taper and secondly, it reduces the weight of the saw plate making it better balanced in the hand and less tiring to use for prolonged periods. The best saws were taper-ground.


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## lysdexic

Thanks for all the advice and tips. I was studying the lambs tongue on my Tyzack and it is quite similar to Andy's example. The question is if i can execute it.

RG - I am learning a ton as well. Like most things woodworking, every step I take is a new discovery. Concerning the tools of choice, I am discovering the world of rasps. Mine consist off a box full from the estate sale. I don't even know their names. YET, more than once i thought about you and wish that I had one of those fancy french rasps. :^)


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## donwilwol

I'm with you Scott. I need some better rasp. As for learning. I learn every time I step into the shop, or log onto LJ's.


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## RGtools

Thanks you Andy…where did you get that picture? That is very helpful.

Scott….the rasp is worth every penny, but makes you want about 4 more.


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## lysdexic

I dont know anything about carving other than I think that I would really like it. Yet, when working on the handle I wished that I had a little spokeshave. Someone here will probably chime in and say "Well Scott you obviously are the thinking of the hubbubbalathingamajig." I just want to to pull little shavings off. That would be cool.


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## thedude50

Andy I am going to go back east to attend a class from Matt Cianci in which he and I are going to make 3 saws each a dove tail saw and a rip saw and a cross cut saw about the size of a tenon saw set should be fun i am going to make all the saws i make have totes of cocobolo and it has become my wood of choice for all my personal planes I will even be replacing all of my LN cherry totes on my planes with it I will be copying the totes of the lns exactly because i love the feel they must be identical .

any way the reason i bring the saw making up is Matt has a supplier for the steel and they cut it to length would cost a ton to ship it to you but wth. I thought the best saw steel came from Sheffield is that true I also heard there is only one foundry left there what a shame. I wonder if they make saw steel there still I will ask tony Marple's next time I talk to him. he is a wealth of tool knowledge. I am trying to talk him into making vintage brases again as they have all the original designs. it would be really cool don't you think. I don't know if Marples ever madse saws this is the Joseph Marple company not the one that sold to irwin

On the saw technique i worked on using your method and made my second 4 foot cut today I now need to make a set of horses the low type that rob cosman uses on his site for the hand tool stuff I am going to ask him for dimensions etc and will base mine on his but will make the height a couple inches higher because I am so tall. this will be a must have tool as I cant fathom ripping ling boards on the workmate or my regular bench. Do you have a set of these low horses what did you make them from and do you hav3e a sketch up of them


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## Brit

Dude - As far as I'm aware, they don't make steel in Sheffiled anymore. The government sold that industry off a long time ago. Most steel used in saw making these days comes from Sweden.

You can't get better instruction than Matt. While you're there, get him to show you how to start a rip saw.

I haven't made a saw bench myself yet, but I agree that if you want to rip by hand, you need a proper saw bench. Two are better than one. Ask Matt about his giant ripping bench. That thing's a beast.


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## Johnnyblot

Any
You're a man after my own heart. I thought I would cut down the saw plate from a 22" cheapo hard point I've got to make a dovetail sawplate. (we all have one of those lying around-unloved). 
I realise that the modern plate is 1mm thick but they are good steel, probably Swedish and in good shiny condition. 
I left it with my mate the blacksmith to cut it down to sze with his plasma cutter. If nothing else it is a good place to start. 
Cheers
John

P.s. When it comes to Saws those Bad Ass boys… Oops Bad Axe take some beating! We should all get behind these guys who are out there doing it for the likes of us! God bless em. 
I'll get off my soapbox now


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## terryR

*Scott*, you should really try a whatzzzaahuuzzzittt instead! 

seriously, how about a little cabinet scraper? any shape you can grind out and burnish sharp…maybe even a wooden handle with set screws so you can change scrapers….hey…something to build today…

I also shape tiny pieces of hardwood and attach 80 grit sandpaper with double-sided tape to carve in small spaces.

*Ryan*...sorry I missed your question about tools of choice for handle shaping yesterday…all MY tools of choice are on the internet for sale…hand cut rasps and files…do I own any? nope. I'm making do with home depot rasps and files…and drooling over those from Gramercy!


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## Brit

John - I'll be interested to see how that dovetail saw turns out.

Terry - So glad you don't have loads of expensive tools. If you can achieve what you did with cheapies from the big box stores then there is hope for all of us.

Ryan - These are the tools I used to shape the lamb's tongue. The larger rasps and file were 99p each. The small files in the orage packet cost about £5.99 and the needle files in the box were about the same. The half round files in both sets are the ones I use most. Sandpaper wrapped around dowels of various diameters also works well.


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## bandit571

Donor saw ( it's name for now) is being cleaned up. LOTS of pits around the handle area, on the non-etch side. It did have an etch, I'm trying to bring it back. From the pattern of the rust, someone left this old saw hanging by the hole in the blade, and water being rain water, runs downhill. Seems they did try to protect the "good" side, by hanging the other side out in the weather. Plywood handle is shot. Kind of 'comfy" for my old hands, though. While not a thumbhole, it might serve as a pattern for a new wood one. Handle area is clipped off funny, though. One or two holes are just slots near the plates edge. The "real" holes are fine, just need new sawnuts, is all. Old ones are in use elsewhere.









Area of the plate with the angled cuts…. * ppi stamp is an "8".


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## thedude50

britt I think i got the rip cut down did 4 long cuts today and now i am going to make my rip benches and the rest will fall together. the d8 is a wonderful saw and needs no work so ill enjoy it i was thinking of waxing the blade like i do my table saw top and the rest of my flat top power tools. a year ago if you tols me i wold be ripping boards on anything but my table saw i wold say your mad but hand cuts is good physical therapy for me.

I am now on the lookout for a real Panther saw it has my attention I just gotr 4 Adkins saws and a few others i will learn how to do them right should be fun I picked up a bunch of tools last month not including my plane habit i got 6 saw vises and a dove tail jig 2 lie nelson dove tail saws a disston dove tail saw and a Simmonds tenon saw I got a few with lambs toungs and brass hard ware and the nib did you get a chance to read mats article on my page ? I alos put up some more gelta grams on the site free downloads are cool


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## Brit

Dude - Yes I did read Matt's article. I read everything Matt writes on his blog, your blog and WKfinetools.

If you find a panther saw, I'll be insanely jealous. You better start saving your pennies though, 'cause they ain't cheap!

Glad you mastered the rip cut.


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## terryR

I tried out the cabinet scraper yesterday while shaping another handle…works great! It gets into nibs pretty well, too. Hopefully this may cut out some hand sanding when the time comes???

I've also moved outside to work wood since it's already in the mid 80's here in Alabama, and my shop is UN-insulated steel. Can't afford a vintage workmate like Andy's, so I built an ugly table from spalting 2×4's and OSB…yuck! I even added this country boy vise yesterday…made from pine and 5/8" threaded rod. It's just a working prototype before I cut a couple of oak chunks I've been hoarding for this purpose. Even thinking of store-bought handles…we'll see…










I'll be sure to measure the oak vise so Andy's new saw vise will fit just right.


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## RGtools

Whatever gets the job done Terry. Looks good.

Scrapers are a shapers friend, that and a drawknife is all I really had to do curves in the past. Now I am starting to accumulate more shaping tools…but the scraper will never be suplanted.


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## Brit

Terry - Give that table a few years in the sun, rain and snow and it will look as nice as my Workmate. LOL.


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## racerglen

Terry, don't mind Andy..just put some water sealer on that OSB and the chips, er grain will realy POP !
I'm with RG, whatever works until you can get/do what you want, and I still find uses for my old workmate..

;-)


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## bandit571

Starting a new saw handle today:









This is the donor saw. Plywood handle, 8 ppi cross cut, run-of the mill saw. Sawnuts were donated to two other projects. Handle is shot, anyway, so, why not make a new one. Just for the "FUN" of it all?









I got some 4/4 "Barn Wood" from my stash. made a glue-up of two planks. Laid the (now) pattern on the blank, and traced around.









Here's hoping I missed all the "bad" areas. There are a couple old cut nails, buried in there, that I KNOW about, it's the one (or more) that I DON"T , that i worry about. I'll drill a few holes, rough things out, and go from there. wood was FREE, so maybe this might be a $2 saw. As for another rehab saw….









Looking better?


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## terryR

*bandit*, looks much better to me! good luck with the barn wood, too…

Here is what happened to that sexy walnut handle I posted last week:


















She is now the proud tote for a No. 5 Disston-Keystone 26" Handsaw…you can see the original Halloween handle in the first photo. 

Cross-cut teeth at 8ppi only need a slight touch up and this will make a great addition to my shop. Full on blog in progress with tons of photos…


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## Brit

That's a beauty Terry. Looking forward to the blog.


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## BrandonW

Here's an interesting Roy Underhill video (with Chris Schwarz) all about sawing. As is to be expected, there's a bit of humor in there and at the end they mutilate a broom. Thought you all might find it helpful, or at the very least entertaining.

http://www.pbs.org/woodwrightsshop/video/3000/3009.html


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## bandit571

Did a little sawing out today. I have a back porch with a 2×4 railing, a clamp or two, a Sabresaw with a long cord, 75 degrees of sunny weather, and a saw handle blank to saw out. Sounds like a plan?









Didn't even drill a hole first, just plunged right in. Finger hole is done. The rest took a few extra cuts, sabresaw's blade had an issue with tight turns. Back out of the cut, come in a different way. Take a wider bite, or a series of bites until the turn can be made. Soon enough:









A handle blank shows up. Then down to the sanding center to clean up saw marks. I will then schedule some router table time with a 1/2" round-over bit. I also marked the sawnut holes by using the old handle as a 'drill guide" to just mark the hole's centers. I then used these marks to layout the sawkerfs for the blade to go in. Hey, it's a start,anyway. Note; I DO NOT CARVE! I don't even carve the Thanksgiving Turkey.


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## thedude50

started my first restore tonight Matt Cianci is doing my great grandfathers saw I cant wait for him to be done I put his money in the savings account as his bill is heavy for the 4 saws i have him doing I have 4 dozen saws out in the shop and need to learn all i can about doing my own work too so here i am how about a restore blog ans some techniques of coarse ill modify this to my own ways.but would like to learn as much as I can


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## need2boat

theDude,

I guess you've got two sides of the process. The clean up and restoration, then the sharpening. The restoration is more of a personal thing and everyone goes about it a little different. The sharpening is more of a science. You need to understand what needs to be done, then practice it. I think leaning from someone like Matt who knows the process is a big help but nothing cuts out the practice. After taking the class I worked on sharpening saws a few hours each night. I'd say at this point I've sharpened about 50 saws, some more then once or twice. When I look at one I did 2 months ago to one I did last night the older one may not be as uniform but both will cut fine.

I don't live near my shop so sharpening is something I can easily in my apt. That said one could easily make the point that time would be better spent working with wood then file if the end goal is to be a woodworker. I know if my shop were closer I would be way worse at sharping. ;-)

Joe


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## terryR

TheDude, you have four dozen rusty saws in the shop? Oh my! Can you post a photo? 

Lots of restore blogs here:
Andy's Saw Talk
Don W's Saw Blogs
A few nice handles from Joe
My blogs
and tons more…watch this forum…

hey, how did you get hooked up with Matt Cianci? I'd love to attend a few classes…


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## Brit

Just filed completely new teeth and sharpened my first dovetail saw today guys. Let's just say, I'll sharpening my second dovetail saw tomorrow. Yes it is the same saw. 

Seriously though, I'm learning a heck of a lot and I'm confident that by the end of tomorrow morning I'll have it purring nicely.


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## BrandonW

LOL, Andy! I'm looking forward to learning from your experiences. 

Anyone need some saw hardware?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/?item=260980674914


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## need2boat

Andy,

How are you filing it and how was it before you started. Your saws being older I would guess the are filed rip with 5-8 degrees of rake. I find relaxing the rake a little can help get them started and with the finer toothed DT saws it really doen't effect how they cut like it would on a larger back or panel saw.

I had emailed with Matt about this in the past and he pointed out unlike larger hand saws it's a lot more personal. I don't currently own a lot of DT saws but just did one to try at 8 degrees. Matt was saying some go as high as 10.

Joe


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## Brit

*Joe* - I'm used to 0 degrees of rake on my dovetail saw. The Gramercy dovetail saw that I have is 0 rake and I don't have any trouble starting it. Personally, I'd rather have the saw with a more aggressive cut, so I'm sharpening this one with 0 rake as well. I totally removed all the teeth first and started from scratch. I don't want to say too much about what I did, because it will pre-empt my blog post. 

I've got the measure of it now though and I'm confident I'll sort it out in the morning.


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## need2boat

Normally I would agree on the aggressive stance.

I've tried Joel's saws when I've been to TFWW but never for cutting angles which is when I find a little rake goes a long way. Plus with the little your cutting for DT's slowing down the cut rate isn't such a bad thing ;-). I would suspect in the old days people didn't use jigs as much so they added a little rake in as well.

Joe


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## Johnnyblot

Quick Question
My dovetail saw has 20ppi, but NO set. Which saw set [eclipse77] should I use to put some set on the blade so it does not bind in the cut??
Cheers
John


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## Brit

*John* - I beilieve the Eclipse No.77 can be used, but you need one with a thin pin. Alternatively, if you have one with a thicker pin, you can file the end of it thinner. As long as you don't go too far, it will still work fine on saws with larger teeth. I have two Eclipse No.77 (shown below). The first one has a thin pin and the second one has a thicker pin. You also need to set the anvil as far as it will go past the 12 setting.


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## thedude50

I will try to get them all together about ten-12 of them are at the saw sharpening shop here in town these are saws that weren't too rusty and I will be waiting a few weeks to get them back his price is only 16 dollars a saw i pay mat more than double that but i also don't send Matt my saws that just need sharpening I also meant that i have close to 4 dozen saws all together so they are not all rusty but most are I have some saws that I got at hardware stores and the like and they are real junkers compared to my nicer saws I have one saw that I need to joint all the way down till there are no more teeth on it at all because there are teeth that are 8tpi and a ways down the plate they are 12 tpi the further they are 5 tpi it is very sad because it is a nice saw other than that I will try to take a photo of all the ones in the shop that aren't out for service and all my users too and we should be somewhere between 2 and 3 dozen total plus a1 has 12 of my saws and Matt has 4 of them

Brit you said something in the hand plane thread but you meant to put it here about a saw vise I actually have purchased several and that includes one that is sprung and needs work and 2 no 2 1 disston no 3 and 2 dsiston no1s and a unidentified one that says no3 and a couple of others like the disstons the best but i liked your design too and will copy it some what the part for my sander is 20 dollars then ill go back to rust removal i do have a sand blaster to remove rust too but Matt said he doesn't recommend it


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## need2boat

Andy very timely post. I finally found a second 42X that didn't cost the price of my car and plan to file down the pin or anvil as some call it.

Joe


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## need2boat

Hey John,

Per the binding with the 20ppi dt saw. What type of wood are you cutting? Did you try waxing the blade real good with a carnauba or wax of our choice. That's a real find tooth how thick is the plate. .015.

Joe


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## terryR

So…what's the ugliest sight you've seen all week???










Should I:
A-put it back on the shelf and forget about it?
B-send it out to someone to rip smaller and re-drill holes?
C-rebuild what I can with JB weld and use it for a wall hanger?
D-wait for this forum to have a christmas gift swap?
E-put extra hardware on it and sell it on eBay?
F-none of the above?
G-all of the above?


----------



## BrandonW

I vote for D!

Or you can shorten the length of it and punch/drill new holes. If you shorten the length of the it, be sure to shorten the spine from both ends so that the imprint remains centered.


----------



## SamuelP

B


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## bandit571

saw rebuild update. The new handle for the 8 point crooscut "Donor Saw" is almost done. Wood is NOT Oak! Might be Sycamore!!!My D8 cut the saw kerf like it was warm butter. I guess i won't have to sharpen that D8 afterall ) A looksee:









Router table is a homemade oldie. Another look:









Still need to pick up a few sawnuts, but that's tomorrows walk about. maybe another Donor saw for $2?


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## Brit

Terry I vote for H - Bury it under a fence post. 

Seriously though Terry, if the rest of the saw is salvagable, just cut a couple of inches off the plate and clean up the edge with a file. Shorten the back as Brandon suggested and you'll be back in the game.

Bandit - That handle is coming on nicely.


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## thedude50

have any of you guys used a shinto rasp I watched a video and the author of making 18century furniture swears they are the greatest they are really cheep and in the video he made real quick work of shaping the wood with it he made cabriolet legs and feet with it I was amassed check this out http://www.woodcraft.com/Family/2082430/Shinto-Saw-Rasps.aspx 




I would like the video to be longer and show more but Glen Huey says its a great tool its made of saw blades this guys work is where I want to go with my woodworking he is one of the masters who has taught schwartz so much I would kill to work with huey for a year as an apprentice.

Check out his book too http://www.amazon.com/Hueys-Illustrated-Building-Period-Furniture/dp/1558707700


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## bandit571

I used to MAKE my own version of a "Shinto Rasp". Bandsaw blades! Whenever one would break, I would 'save" it. I'd break the broken blade down into 12" lengths. I'd then wait until there was enough of them, and gang a bunch together. Usually, I'd just tape the ends together. Depending on how many went into the "gang", I would have a rasp up to 1" wide. Depending on what tooth count the blades had, the rasps were either "fine" cut, or "rough" cut. Narrow "gangs' still had a bit of flex to them, and could shape around curves and such. had to remember to stagger the teeth on them, though.


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## donwilwol

I really like Andy's saw vise. But this style looks rather appealing as well.

Not that I'd spend that much money on it, but making one would be pretty simple, and I like then fact you could make different size jaws for it.


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## terryR

*Don*, I like the shape of that vise…could be larger for more mass…

...looks like it's made to sharpen BOTH sides of the saw plate!


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## bandit571

Lets see, I have a back porch railing, two pieces of plywood, and a couple "F" clamps. Just need another sunny morning ( without the rain) and I'm in business. Might try a backsaw later. Retooth into a rip pattern. Just a cheap $1.21 saw, with BAD teeth. Joint them down and start again.


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## donwilwol

I have a back porch railing, two pieces of plywood, and a couple "F" clamps

That made my day.


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## Brit

Go for it Bandit!

*Don* - That saw vise is interesting. I haven't seen one like that before, but I've just realised why it is like that. Obviously the saw is in the vise the wrong way up, but if you tuned it over so the teeth are upper most, the vise starts to make sense. The reason it slopes down is so that you can file a set rake angle on the front of each tooth whilst keeping the face of your file vertical. Ingenious idea. If you took it a step further, you could build a base that allows the vise part to swivel and lock it in at various rake angles. Now that would be cool. I shall expect to see your prototype by the end of the day.


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## bandit571

A little eye candy this morning:









8 point, Warrented superior, finished









The Rancher as is condition, ad lastly









the orphan…. anybody need a handle? Four saw nuts PLUS medallion, had three sawnuts when i bought it. No Medallion either. Sawnuts are in the 8 point saw. Blade for the orphan is a big curve where it enters the handle area. No etch, and no "point" stamp. Looks like an 8-9 point.


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## Brit

Just took my newly sharpened dovetail saw for a spin in some softwood. Nice!


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## BrandonW

Andy, coveting is a sin. You're making me sin.

That saw is gorgeous and it looks like it's sharp at that as well! I hope you enjoy using it-I know you will.


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## Brit

*Brandon* - I know this is stupid, but I can't tell you how big the grin on my face is every time this saw sails through a piece of wood. I just stand there and think - I did that!. LOL


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## BrandonW

I wouldn't be able to get any work done if I had that saw, Andy. Luckily I have a couple Veritas saws that, while very good saws, aren't that attractive.


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## bandit571

Jointed the teeth down a bit on that backsaw of mine. had a couple teeth that were a bit stubborn, though. Looking down the length, saw four teeth NOT shining up. Joint a little more, ah, got two of them, rejoint, ah there they go. The first three teeth on this backsaw are just "nibs". as is the last two. This saw WAS used in a wooden "miterbox", and maybe it was to protect the box???? I'll try to sharpen it this weekend, with my "High Tech" vise.


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## mochoa

Andy those are some beautiful kerfs.


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## donwilwol

Sorry Andy. Had some chores around the house to do. Didn't get any fun time. The saw vise will have to wait. That is a beautiful saw you keep showing. Sharp to huh. Man, I got ot get back to sharpening, but haven't had the motivation.


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## thedude50

andy what make is that little dove tail saw it looks a lot like my LN saws


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## Brit

Dude - It is an old Spear & Jackson that I bought off of ebay. I restored it, filed all the old crappy teeth off, filed new teeth in it, then shapened them. You can read how I shaped and sharpened the teeth on the latest episode of my Saw Talk blog


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## bandit571

Orphan Saw update: Stripped the finish off the handle, and rounded over all the edges. Still in the dark about who made this saw. Four holes for the sawnuts, PLUS a hole for a medallion. The three sawnuts that WERE on it, were a newer, non-split kind. Nickel plated, as well. The hasndle has three wheat carvings, one UP the grip, one across the top, and one going DOWN in front of the grip area. Blade has a funny cut to it's end where it enters the handle. BIG round curve.









No sign of an etch, either, as yet. No stamp as to teeth count. Seems to be a 10 point, or higher count. Blade is nice and straight, though. Will need to find enough sawnuts to put this saw back to work, MIGHT even get a Warrented Superior medallion as well. And, no, Warren and Ted Superior were NOT brothers…..


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## AnthonyReed

Some Disston reading material if you have interest: http://www.roseantiquetools.com/id57.html

Matt's Blog got me looking.


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## need2boat

If you want the Disston lumberman handbook from 1907 which is what Matt was talking about as the more complete guide. I had found a copy here on line. I'm not positive the difference between the 1907 and 1912 but I'm about 1/2 thru the 1907 and it's interesting but not a real page tuner. ;-)

Joe


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## bandit571

Orphan saw seems to be a late model D23. Early 50s???? Will clean up and try to sell the old boy.


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## bandit571

Back Porch Saw Vise: Just two pieces of 2x pine, a couple "F" clamps, and a back porch railing.









Handle end, and the other end:









High tech at it's finest. Took a Disston/HK Porter "Rancher" as a test subject:









Mean looking teeth, and i used a extra slim taper file to sharpen it up with









Since this was just a sharpen, not a retoothing, i just followed along with what angles were there. Now, I did clamp a pair of visegrips to the file, made it easier on the hands. How does this old saw work now?









Cuts some pine scrap (from the jig) real fast. Not "pretty" fast, more like rough fast. left it in the kerf for the photo, two more strokes finish that cut.

Note: When you buy a saw, say 26" long, and go to use it, use the whole 26" that you paid for. Your saw will last longer that way.


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## thedude50

Ok guys I finally got out of bed the depression is acting up again and i keep having anxiety attacks but any way some of all my saws remember they are Till less even the really nice saws just no where to put them all I am a bit obsessive and I went a little overboard on the saw purchases only about 6 are junk but i will practice on those so i doing ruin a good saw


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## racerglen

Good Grief Lance !
That's a new take on a saw till..just use some planes for bookends ..
;-)
Nice collection. Do I see some plastic in there ? Thinking you're going to be VERY busy !


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## donwilwol

holy smokes dude!


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## Brit

And I thought I had it bad, but it would seem there is hope for me yet. I CAN stop when I've got enough, I just don't know what's enough.


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## terryR

Oh my goodness, Dude, that's a ton of work you got there…nice looking pile, though!

Now I see who has been outbidding me on eBay the past month. 

Hoping you feel better,
terry


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## need2boat

Sadly I think I've got about as many or maybe more but I'm slowly fixing and selling them off. This weekend is the Craft tool auction in NJ so I'm sure I'll end up with a few more or maybe less if I get lucky.

Joe


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## thedude50

phots please hehehehehe I want to see a bigger pile

yes there are 3 with plastic handles they are all disstons though I thought i would make some nice wooden totes for the ones that were plastic

there are also some really nice saws my ln dove tail saws and my disston and a few more name tools in the pile no bad junk some will need work the 3 plastic saws are all sharp and cut well i have tried every saw in the pile there are 12 more at the saw shop here in town and 4 with matt cianci I also just won a disston no7 on ebay It has a nib and dates to 1898 i cant wait to get that one home it looks good in the ebay photos already hope it really is nice I need a nice crosscut saw like a back saw a carcus saw i believe they call them and then i need 6 more hours in a day


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## terryR

A bit of eye candy for the group:










Gramercy's Joinery Set consisting of one 12" Xcut Carcase saw and a 9" Dovetail saw just delivered to my shop via UPS this evening! I promise to still sharpen my old rusty saws, when I learn the skills, but I'm ready to make some sawdust now…these guys will be a major step up for me from my big box store 'saws'.










So far, I've spent more time wiping my fingerprints off the plates than anything!


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## lysdexic

Interesting how they have holdfasts holding down their banner.


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## Brit

Well I never noticed that before.


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## Brit

BTW, welcome to the Gramercy club Terry. You're going to love them once you get used to them.


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## BrandonW

It's a subtle advertisement for their holdfasts! Beautiful saws, Terry.


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## terryR

Yeah, I kinda liked the holdfasts when I noticed them.

I've never used a sharp saw until tonight! sad. These babies make cutting wood fun…hopefully my joinery skills will show noticeable improvement shortly.


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## AnthonyReed

Congrats Terry! They are beauties.


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## need2boat

Terry,

They are some really nice saws. When I got into woodworking I bought a collection of used tools as many of us do. One of the pieces was a 15ppi LN saw that was used a few times and although I don't think it's as fine a saw as some on the market I can't see replacing it at this time.

I've used Joel's saws and visited the store where they assemble and sharpen them. Ben who works for him and does a good deal of the work is excellent at it. He has the experience one can only gain with time and saw design and manufacturing are one of those things that get better with time. I'm sure you'll be really happy with it.

As for the picture on the plate. What makes me smile is you should see the building, and just the area of the store in general. It's a far cry from that picture. It's cool in it's own right but it reminds more of an industrial revolution type place. I'll take some pictures next time I'm there.

Joe


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## need2boat

Dude.

I looked on my HD at work and I found these two pictures. I'm sure some have come and gone since then but it gives you an idea. I don't really have a pile, rather I hang mine due to space issues plus store them in a few places depending on where they are in the food chain. Missing from this is a collection in my shop as well.



















Joe


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## thedude50

hey Joe i like the pegs I wonder if I have some dowel rods in the shop I could get that pyle off my saw and get back to using it for what i need to be doing thanks for the idea I think i have a couple of 2×4 scraps for the backer boards could make the dowels on the woodrat if i dont have any or make a trip to lowes for dowel rods I think they sell some Maybe ill make giant shaker pegs on the lathe could be fun too and then they wont slide of during the earthquakes


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## need2boat

Yes they are very easy to make and in a lot of ways better then many of the fancy tills we all make. I make the pegs at 10-15 degrees and use anything from scraps of nice hard woods to 2×4s. Just keep in mind the needed distance between them so the blades don't smack. I don't worry about the handles but them rubbing one another is the other pit fall to this type of design. That said laying them flat one on top of the other can lead to a bend over time so I'd take a scratch on a handle over the bend. 

Joe


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## terryR

*Joe*, thanks for offering to photograph the Gramercy shop…that would be cool to see…no hurries, though…

love your simple saw tills…must've seen one of those photos last month since mine looks just like the first one shown.


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## carguy460

38 days ago I posted a question about some saw hardware that looked like this:










They came from one of my grandfathers saws that looked like this:


















After getting the answers about my crappy saw "rivets", and reading numerous saw restoration how to's on this site, That Warranted Superior saw now looks like this:


























Thanks to everyone on this site for being so helpful and providing inspiration! This isn't the best saw restoration (I'm almost ashamed to post it!), but it's a start!


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Jason, a restore after my own heart. Mine look like that, too!  I'm happy, and the saws are certainly happy as well. Congrats on a job well done, thanks for posting!


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## need2boat

No problem Terry, I'm sure I'll be heading over in the next few weeks and will snap some.

This is the address in google maps and you can use street view to get an idea of the building. It's a funny setup as your talking into a big warehouse and they just rent a small space in it.

Joe


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## need2boat

Jason,

Saw looks good! nice job.

Joe


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## Johnnyblot

I would be proud as punch to own that saw. Prouder still if it had been my Grandfather's. 

John


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## carguy460

Thanks for the kind words - I am very proud to get to have these family saws - I've got 5 others in my shop, plus even more that have yet to be given to me. Next step - learn to sharpen so I can actually use the stuff!!!


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## carguy460

My next project - Disston D8:

















The etch can barely be seen:









This one has actual threaded saw nuts as opposed to those darn rivet things on the Warranted Superior saw I did last time.


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## ksSlim

Hang in there, your last restore was pretty decent. I'll be watching to see how you maintain the etch and what you decide to do with the grip.


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## terryR

*Jason*, you are lucky to have old saws with a family history! Nice job on that last one, too. Hey what's that board in the 2nd photo above? Maybe a saw till in progress? Just asking since I'm drawing up one now…

*Hey gang*, what does the book recommend for fine hand saw storage? A vertical till…blades up or down? Sure seems like blades down with handles resting on a slotted board would put less stress on the steel over periods of time?


> I've almost started to build a verti-till similar to *Andy's* sketch up models…but thought about asking you guys for mental input…think outside the box a bit and what would make the BEST till in your mind


?


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## need2boat

I think it's splitting hairs and I'm sure there are pros cons to both. The saws don't really weigh that much so I don't think the wight of them leaning on an edge will bend them.

Long term hanging them by the handle one per peg would be about the best but I think if your till will hold saws you plan to use more often then not most if not all the damage will happen in use more then while they sit. One drop on the floor could do the same damage as leaving it laying in a pile for 10 years. ;-)

Joe


----------



## RGtools

Mine will be horizontal in a chest with the blades down. Any stress would only serve to breast the saw a tad….if at all.


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## thedude50

do you guys know a way to put files up here like pdf files I have some id like to share with you guys I already emailed them to Andy


----------



## ksSlim

Are they on your website? 2 birds with one chunck a wood.


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## Brit

Lance, I've sent you a lengthy reply. I will post the PDFs as images on this thread along with the design advice that I've sent you personally.


----------



## Brit

Lance wanted to build one of my saw till designs, so I sent him my Sketchup drawings. He asked a friend to add some dimensions to the till and these are the drawings that resulted from that which Lance wanted to post back to this thread. I originally designed this saw till for my backsaws and Lance wants to adapt the design for hand saws. I therefore sent Lance some design considerations for using this design with hand saws which I have copied to the end of this post.

*DISCLAIMER*: IF YOU DECIDE TO BUILD A SAW TILL BASED ON THIS DESIGN, IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO ENSURE THE DIMENSIONS ARE CORRECT FOR THE SAWS IN YOUR COLLECTION. SAW SHAPES AND SIZES VARY AND A MOCK UP IS HIGHLY RECOMMENDED BEFORE COMMITTING TO THE FINAL DIMENSIONS.

Here are the drawings from Lance's friend.














































Here are my design comments to Lance.

Thanks Lance and please thank Dave Damsen too. They are much appreciated. There are a couple of things I was going to do when I make the till that I didn't bother putting on the sketches.

1) Use a roundover bit along the top edges of the handle support so it better matches the curvature under the top horns of the handles.
2) Recess the back so the cabinet sits flush with the wall and maybe incorporate a French cleat to hang the cabinet.

Also Dave mentioned that I didn't bother cutting the slots for the saws blades to fit in. As you know, my cabinet was designed to hold my backsaws, so I was going to cut all the slots to the same depth and then the saw plates would slide into the slots until the underside of the spines rested on the front edge of the shelf. In this way, they would all present at the same angle irrespective of the depth of each saw plate and that angle would remain constant as the depth of cut changed due to sharpening.

If I was going to use this design for hand saws, I would introduce a variable sliding stop at the back of the kerfs, so that I could move it forward depending on the depth of each hand saw. A simple set screw could hold each stop at the desired position.

The other thing to note is that with hand saws, the hang angle of the handles might vary from saw to saw depending on what period your saws were made. The hang angle is the angle between the front of the grip where your fingers wrap around and the toothline. On older saws from the late 18th and early 19th centuries, the hang angle was greater (approaching 90 degrees in some cases). In those days, saws were used by professional craftsmen who knew how to sharpen their saws and kept them sharp. As long as the teeth were sharp, this greater hang angle directed the sawyers power along the toothline and the sharp teeth did the cutting. However, they only worked if the teeth were kept sharp. As the teeth became blunt, they would tend to ride over the wood because the teeth could no longer bite.

From the latter half of the 19th century onwards, manufacturers reduced the hang angle on their hand saws so that more of the sawyers power was directed downwards, usually to a point just forward of the middle of the toothline. This was done to compensate for the fact that less and less people knew how to keep their saws sharp. This added downward pressure helped to keep the teeth engaged in the cut even if the teeth were not kept sharp. Anyhow, the reason I mention this is because if the hang angles vary it might influence the depth that you need to cut the slots for the saw plates and also might affect the angle that the handle support is mounted in the till. You would be wise to do a mock up of the handle support and try each of your saws to ensure they will all fit.

On last thing to note is that you will almost certainly need to increase the distance between the top of the drawer and the top of the handle support. The handles are obviously bigger on hand saws and the depth of the plate at the heel of the saw can be as much as 8".


----------



## Brit

Just to add to my last post, the following drawing shows my preferred method for storing hand saws. I would probably dress up the design a bit by carving lamb's tongues into the front of the support brackets, but that's just because I like a challenge. 

You could vary the depth of the slots for different size saws according to the saws in your collection. Also to protect the teeth, it would be advisable to mount the shelf on some plywood if the walls in your shop are anything other than wood.

Just thought I'd put it out there.


----------



## terryR

*Andy*, thanks for all your time and efforts to share your brilliant ideas! I'm still drawing my till on paper, but am hoping to store both backsaws as well as handsaws together. I plan to use different depths of slots for my handsaw teeth to rest into…thus keeping the same visible hang angle to the eye…does that make sense? 

also…I like that simple till you posted lastly…sapele with lamb's tongues will look nice! Hey that sketch up drawing looks like the last handle I made! same wood and hardware, but the tongue is missing!!!


----------



## SamuelP

Great info again Andy. Thank you and thanks Lance.

Has anyone on here heard of or seen a rip saw handle like a Disston D-8 with thum-bhole with three holes for nuts , but made of metal. It looks like aluminum but weighs much more. I will try and get pics up later today.


----------



## AnthonyReed

Great info. Thank you Andy. Thank you Lance.


----------



## Brit

*Terry* - You should download Google Sketchup. I just use the free version. It does everything I need it to do.

*Sam* - I've no idea what that saw might be. I don't recall ever seeing one like that.


----------



## terryR

Ahhh…just found my saw till on Dave Anderson's site










Not a very large photo, but I love the design, and the colors! I'm sure I can come up with the dimensions after another mock up with what I have in the shop. Love that plane till, too, and the entire wall…so much nicer to look at than pegboard!

*Andy*, I did download sketchup last week…but haven't sat in front of it yet…hear it has a steep learning curve, but I have 2/3 of a Computer Engineering degree, and used to be a computer geek a few years ago, so I'm sure I'll learn it if I can find the time…


----------



## Brit

*Terry* - Yeah that's a pretty sweet wall isn't it? You'll have no problem with Sketchup. I learnt it just by playing with it in a couple of days. There are some woodworking related tutorials floating around if you search for them (even on LJs). Bob Lang has a downloadable eBook for a small fee and IMO that is the quickest way to learn how to set it up for drawing woodworking plans. Well worth the money because he shows a lot of useful shortcuts. It is pretty intuitive though.


----------



## donwilwol

I was at an auction this afternoon and bid (and lost) on a metal saw vise that was about 3' long. I've never seen one before and wonder what it was worth. It was heavy and made to bolt permanent on a bench.


----------



## carguy460

Terry - sorry for the delayed response…a beautiful Missouri weekend convinced me to abandon everything and fish my life away!

Anyway, that board with the slots in my previous post is going to be a pipe clamp rack…assuming I ever get it complete! I wish it was a saw till…Dad just told me earlier today that he has 6 more family saws that he's handing over to me this summer, so I'll be needing some proper saw storage!


----------



## bandit571

Next saw project:
 








Found a suitable place for that old plywoodie handle…..


----------



## bandit571

Well, at least it looks better( or will, when I get done) than what was on there before. I'll scrub the blade as well. Maybe a Warrented Superior Medallion as well? Looked kind of forlorn, laying there handleless…..


----------



## thedude50

don it is worth around 900 dollars if it was a Disston that 3 foot model is the one I don't yet have in my collection It is a great vise I have only seen the disston one in a book never on eBay and I would kill to have it however Andy's saw vise will do just as good a job there is just something cool about a 150 year old vise there are other manufactures of these vises and the prices drop quick if it is the wrong brand even though it will likely work as well or better than the Disston

On the Saw tills I was going to put them all in one till till I figured out thanks to Andy I would be walking all day back and forth when i needed a panel saw I will have my saw benches near my table saw so that they are easy to lay out big boards in that part of the shop so two tills it is one next to the bench and the panel saw next to the table saw for now I think it will be the best for me but something I have changed because of Andy's help


----------



## need2boat

Don,

did it look like this.









I see where people have take then the vise from an acme automatic hand saw filer and use that as a bench top. Not sure what the value would be but I've see the complete unit go for 300-500 although I've not see one close up.

Joe


----------



## need2boat

Andy,

That's a great idea on the wall shelf hand saw design. Simple and functional.

Joe


----------



## need2boat

Ok, I ended up making a trip over to Brooklyn to pick up a few files that I needed sooner then later and took some pictures. It's kind of hard to get a good picture of the space but it's just a wearhouse broken up into spaces that tfww put up a few walls to hand things on.

They are located on the 5th floor so if your not used to stairs it's a hike. Most of the products they sell you can try first. They have a few work areas and scrap wood around. They are also a Festool dealer. The day I was there they were doing building repairs so things were moved around a bit. If your in the area it's worth stopping buy they sell a returned, scratch and dents at a discount but for them most part I think they do internet sales.























































Joe


----------



## mochoa

Nice Joe, thanks for posting, Its nice to be able to visualize where your future tools are hanging out waiting for you!


----------



## AnthonyReed

Very cool. Thanks Joe.


----------



## RGtools

Jealous. I would love to take a bit of a stroll through any of those stores…that one specifically would be fun. I have been consitently impressed with these people every time I get the oppurtunity to do business with them.

Want their sash saw…


----------



## need2boat

yea and Joel and the rest of the staff is a good bunch of people. The Girl that handles most of the orders and phones is Crystal and she really does a great job of getting things shipped as well as following up. Nice to still see small biz doing well in a word of big box stores and such.

Joe


----------



## need2boat

RG,

Your out Mike's way. Have you ever made a trip to Wenzloff and Sons. Maybe see if you can talk your way into see his system for tapering hand saws. I'm told it's TOP SECRET. ;-)

Joe


----------



## terryR

WOW! I wish I had a store like that around…sounds too good to be true. 

I'm a customer for life.

Thanks, Joe!!!


----------



## RGtools

I am making a trip up north in october and I am giving serious thought to taking a detour to Wenzoff and Sons…I would love to order a Sash from them and pick it up when I go…but my savings and there backlog might not work to make that dream happen.

They make gorgeous saws.


----------



## need2boat

From my dealing with Mike he strikes me as the type of guy if you showed up even empty handed he might find something in the shop that would work for you. You should at least see if you can get him to sharpen a saw wile your there. Hell, he's still got my Disston 28" miter box saw. See if you can get that sharpended and out of his hands. ;-) I'll pay YOU for it. . . ;-)


----------



## terryR

Here's me latest restore…Simonds Miter Saw with apple handle:


















Full blog being typed now…


----------



## donwilwol

sweeeeet!!


----------



## thedude50

Hey Joe I want to thank you for the giant peg design I made my own I used 3/4 in dowels all drilled in at a 7 degree angler that was a trick toi do on the drill press did you ever wonder why the drill press table tilts the wrong way. I want a table that tilts both ways and with accuracy of a gear drive. and i mean front to back as well as left to right. any way I spaced the holes 9 inches apart so the saws don't hit each other and in about an hour including drying time I was done and had the wall loaded all six pegs are loaded up but there is room for a few more saws and once my tills are done there will be more room. I am happy because my table saw is cleared off and I was able to get back to work. so thanks for the Idea Jo it works very well


----------



## need2boat

Very glad to hear it all went well.

I know just how you feel. I've made a number of peg boards for handing thinks from saws to chairs on the wall. I ended up making a sloped 10 degree table for a jig and that works perfect. Then last year I upgraded from a bench top to a floor model when delta was running the 15% off sale. There 18" tilts in all four directions. I really had chairs in mind but it works perect for this as well.

One other thing to try is just freehand it with a brace. You can cut a piece of scrap at the angle or use a bevel gauge to chack your angle as you go. I made my saw bench legs like this and it was easier then I thought. I guess you have to channle "Roy" or watch some woodwright shop right before.


----------



## need2boat

Terry

How Wide is is the blade of that miter box saw. I looked at one local to me and I wasn't sure if it had just been cut down or just made thiner then the standard Disston. It was a 28 in back and 5" depth of blade.

Joe


----------



## terryR

Joe, that Simonds above has a blade that measures just over 24" long and 4" extending below the back. I also have a rusty Stanley Simonds Sweetheart miter saw with a blade of just over 28" long and 5" wide, and just couldn't pass up this freeking HUGE piece of Disston steel which measures 30×5.5"; not including the back! No handle or hardware for that one…

Sounds like you found a sweetheart saw?


----------



## BrandonW

Here's one foxy Disston for sale:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DISSTON-and-sons-No-9-PHILA-26-HAND-SAW-/170819020318?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27c59b661e


----------



## need2boat

Terry,

I didn't end up buying it as at the time I was looking more to resell rather then collect and the price wasn't great. I may meet up with him in the future and get it.

Joe


----------



## thedude50

I talked with Matt cianci today, he is a really cool guy and we get to talking and i can go on for hours. I love picking his brain, he gave me a few ides on how I will refile my saw that has 4 different teeth patterns on it. I really want to get the saw in shape. I was curious when you guys are sanding the rust off the saw plates do you use a power sander or are you doing it all by hand? I have done both and it sure fly's with the finish sander or even better the da sander.

I just decided to make a few totes for practice i think i will use some southern yellow pine and then after i have them down I will do all my personal saws with Cocobolo just like my hand plane totes should be a kick


----------



## need2boat

I've always sanded them by hand but I would guess a power sanded would make short work of them. I don't own a lot of sanders just a palm one and the grits and type of paper I have is for wood 80-220 grit. For the saws I tend to use wet/dry and start with 220 and go up from there.

Joe


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

I have an older (80s?) Makita 1/3 sheet sander that does a pretty good job on saw plates that I've cleaned up. My completed saws aren't Andy-good, but with the 400 grit wet/dry paper I have, the plate gets sprayed with WD40 and off we go. Gotta change paper quite a bit up front, but ultimately everything settles down and the final finish has darker patina but is smooth as… smooth as… well, it's smooth. 

^Love the types of Disston handles that are on the Foxy Saw. Just like the 12 and 112 models.


----------



## Brit

I used a small belt sander on one of my backsaw restorations. It worked pretty well, but you need to be able to hold the sander with one hand and the saw with the other. The only bit I couldn't get with it was just below the spine so I did that bit by hand.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

And if there's any set at all to the teeth, the sander (human or electron-killing) balks.


----------



## bandit571

A green scratchy pad under a wire brush, has been to go-to lately for me. Blend in about 5 galons of elbow grease, and it works like magic.

Note #1; While out & about today, stopped in at the local ( two blocks away ) DIY store. Had to actually pick up a saw, and SHOW the counter guy WHAT a sawnut was. A large slim taper file was almost $6 each. Wet & Dry sandpaper only went up to 400 grit???? Later, Counter guy….

Note #2: Got the orphan Saw almost finished back to "like new' status. Just need the bolts. Blade has been resharpened, handle sanded, stained an "Ipswich Pine" stain that matches the colour of that style of handle. One coat of Poly, to match the "weather-proof" finish that used to be there.

Note#3: More of a question. How does one use Gun Blue to bring out an Etch? Swab on, brush off? Is any heat applied? Steel wool? The "Orphan Saw does have a little etch, just needs to be brought back to life…

Note#4: Older style "Tool box saw" ( BEFORE they impulse hardened teeth) needed a new handle ( I can only tolerate just so much ugliness in the shop) as the original handle went in the trash. Still had a "Plywoodie" handle from another saw. Hmmmm. I slid the Plywoodie onto the toolbox saw…....

"IT"S ALIVE!!!!" Cute little franckensaw! I'll clean off that blade, re-do the teeth, add some nickel plated sawnuts, AND a medallion to match…... Photo?


> ? You need a photo of this


 Be warned, be very warned..









I warned you, didn't I? This also counts as a "Before" picture, right?


----------



## Bertha

I had to post to get to the bottom (been away a bit). I'll do it with this, lol:
.
http://www.hartvilletool.com/product/5284/new-tools-from-hartville-tool
.
I thought it was an April Fool's for a second.
.


----------



## need2boat

Bandit

This is the steps I follow. I use brass darkening solution as I find it gets a bit darker and sands off easier but they both stain the metal then you sand back. It's helpful to use a block of wood so you don't take off to much. Also watch the edge of the stained area. They will needed to be feathered or you end up with a dark area where you applied it and the rest of he saw cleaner.

steps:

1) clean the saw plate.

2) wipe down the area with a degrees or metal prep liquid. I use accutane.

3) apply gun blue or brass darkening solution with a cotton ball

4) let dry or wait a few min and wipe off excess

5) sand darken area to reveal etch.

Joe


----------



## bandit571

Update on the Orphan saw D23:









Outside, soaking up some sushine while drying off. Drywall screw to hold things while the finish cures. Almost done….


----------



## thedude50

well guys I purchased some apple wood planks for totes today and my wife is now on the war path she happened to see my eBay bill for the past two months 2800 dollars she was friggin pissed and tried to get me to move out she has calmed down a bit today but that was too close for comfort changed my password for eBay and turned off the recognize feature I wont stop buying tools so I have to hide it better or get divorced then when i thought everything was cool she walked out and asked where did all the wood come from so as not to piss her off more I said it was from eBay since she already thought how much i had spent on eBay and this blew over thank god I really love my wife but i am a shopaholic and i have to shop when i die she can sell it all on eBay and get rich hehehehehe 
I think making the etch show up is cool but if you sand the plate wont it be gone


----------



## bandit571

wait until you find out how much the saw bolts are going for….

I find old saws and redo them. Sometimes, i recycle the old handles, other times it is a brand new handle. About used up the supply of sycamore i had on just that 8 point saw. 4/4 stuff, had to glue up two to make a blank wide enough for the saw handle.


----------



## need2boat

The etch or what's left of it are in effect scratches. So when you sand to remove the darkened area if you use a block of wood your sanding the surface and leaving the etched areas alone.

Joe


----------



## bandit571

Went down town this morning, spent a whopping $10. WOW! Five saws came back home with me. An Adkins, with a WS medallion with an eagle, and an "etch" like circle. Three silver sawnuts + Medallion. Also has a hole to hang the saw up with. Handle has no carving, other than markings for DIV7 O.S.H.D.

Next up: A Disston Keystone Pace maker. With a visable etch! Shows two people running. Three brass sawnuts, plus a brass WS medallion. Skew back. Some wheat carving on grip.

Next up: A Warrented Superior 8 point, shew back. Three "domed" brass sawnuts, plus a brass WS medallion. No carving on handle. Kink in blade, about 1/2 down the line.

Next up: A Disston U.S.A. 11 point, skew back, with a lot of etch going on. Might be a D8 with the 8 inside the D. No carving on handle. Four brass sawnuts + Brass medallion. Bottom horn is wrapped up in electrical tape.

last but not least: A short saw, about 20" long. Four BIG Brass sawnuts, no Medallion. Carving on the grip, and along the top. At least a 12 pointer, no stamp as yet. Several kinks in the blade, though. Might turn out to be another Donor saw.


----------



## bandit571

Ok, I know, no photos, didn't happen, right? Ok, here we go:









WS skew back, with domed bolts; next









The Adkins "Highway Dept. saw", Next









That "etch" for Adkins, next









Handle does say $3, I paid $2 for this shorty saw, next









The line-up, with Shorty in front, one more (for now)









The Keystone Pace Maker. I bought five saw, paid $10. 13 for the stack. I even had enough to buy a Mountain Dew on the walk back home ( walked through a Drive-through) . And How was your day?


----------



## need2boat

I'm sitting at my desk watching the clock so I'd say your doing better then me! ;-)

Joe


----------



## Brit

Nice haul Bandit. They'll keep you busy.

How was my day? Well I was out in the garden making a Labarynth game. There I was cutting some dovetails in the frame. I looked down and there was a duck pecking at my bag of plane shavings. So I cut another tail, looked down again and the drake had now arrived too. I felt like Saint Francis of Assisi.


----------



## Brit

It's a public holiday in the UK, so is Monday. Yippee!!!


----------



## Brit

Did you get the spreadsheet Joe?


----------



## bandit571

Brit: I HAVE to work Saturday night, Sunday night, AND Monday night (you SUCK) and finally get a "day off tuesday and wednesday. Those "Nights start at 1900 hours, and run until 0710 hours. Yep 12 hour shifts…

Gonna look up how the straighten a saw blade, before i decide on a couple of these saws. still, $10 for five saws…..)


----------



## need2boat

Andy,

Thanks so much I just got the green light to head out of the day so I was on the subway when you emailed.

Joe


----------



## bandit571

Now, I have a Mystery on hand. No-name saw: Handle does NOT match any thing Ol' Henry Disston put on his saws. Blade length is 26" , with an overall length of just over 30". One sawnut, and the medallion are brass, the other two sawnuts are nickel-plated/steel(??). This saw winds up at least an inch longer than any other saws i have.

Second Mystery saw: Shorty. 19-1/2" of usable teeth. No etch (yet), and no medallion, either. Just four big, Brass sawnuts. HUGE amount of saw teeth, almost like a backsaw's teeth count. Another "No-Name"saw???

Underneath that black tape, yep, a big old crack. Might be able to fix it, though.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Here's a quick one for today. Love the handle, has a clear three finger grip and long horns (not too much damage). Started light cleanup and shaping of bottom horn to address some chipping before taking a picture:










I like handles with nibs and bird's mouth so I traced one out:



















With final sanding, it went to the Don Bag (BLO but with some red oak stain):



















Polished the nuts, leaving the saw plate alone for now. So here it is, final form:


----------



## thedude50

what was the stuff in the baggie and what was it supposed to do


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

BLO with some stain added, to color and quench anf finish the handle. In a week or two I may apply tung oill or some wipe-on poly.


----------



## bandit571

Shorty Saw update: IDed as a Bishop P80 blade stamped with an 11 under the tote. Sanded the tote back to bare, BLOND wood.

Atkins Saw: Saved the handle, and will use it on a short tool box saw, when a few more saw nuts show up. Plate has more "waves" than the Jersey Shore.

No-Name Saw: Still no etch. The three domed sawnuts are steel coloured on the "smooth" side, but, one has a brass slotted end on the other side. Also the WS Medalion is Brass, on both sides. Plate is stamped in the "normal" spot as an 8. Someone also added their own stamps. On Both sides of the tote, at the top, are the numbers 25056. Behind the medallion is a 10, and another in the same spot on the other side, also a 10. In the saw plate at the top, right before the tote, another 10, stamped so hard it shows through to the other side. One fixable kink about 1/2 way down the tooth line.

D8 Skew back: 11 pointer. The black tape covered up a crack in the tote. I can spread the crack a bit, "pump" so glue in there, and close it back up. Cleaned the Brass hardware up, and re-installed them, for now. When I get around to this saw again, I'll take the tote off, and refinish it.

Keystone Pace maker: Loaned out a sawnut for the orpan saw Project. I dig up another one later. Tote will need a refinish, as well. Keystone is an 8 pointer, with a skew back. Wheat carving in the grip only. When this saw was new, it was the most expensive of the Keystone line.


----------



## AnthonyReed

Nice job Smitty. The nib/bird's mouth really came out great.

Bandit you are verging on collector with all your acquisitions


----------



## carguy460

Smitty - I really like how that handle turned out…I wish I had seen that before I finished my last one!

I finally was able to finish another family saw today - just an old D8, and the first saw I've done with an etch…the etch scared me a little, but I was able to bring it out enough to read it (though the pictures don't really show up well).

The whole package:








Handle - just a few coats of linseed oil:








Medallion (bad pic):








The logo etch:








I got really excited when I could actually read this (I didn't know what it read before I started restoring this one) "For beauty, finish and utility, this saw cannot be excelled" - Henry Disston - coolest thing I've ever seen:








And a good shot of my foot:









I'm getting better at this, slowly! Regardless, this saw is now useable again, first time since my grandfather used it in the 60's. I'm pumped.
EDIT: Ok, not totally useable…I probably need to learn to sharpen and set this thing…


----------



## donwilwol

Smitty, you need to vacuum seal those bags. It would be like pressure treating. They do turn out nice!


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Comments appreciated, thanks! Bird's mouth was actually very easy to do. If you've got a pattern, give it a try.

I'm not a stain guy normally, but have now become set in my 'Red Oak' ways w/ these handles, anyway. Vacuum sealed… Think I'll let time take care of the penetration.  I love the method!


----------



## SamuelP

What kind of stain do you mix with BLO?


----------



## thedude50

Thanks Smitty I will try to stick with Danish oil and use your baggie trick. I am also playing with the Maloof oils as Mike Wischmann told me that is what he uses on the nobs and totes .then he waxes them they are really sweet.

I have a new source for apple wood and will be stocking it for a while to let it age and to make totes should be a lot of fun. I am trying to plan my trip across the usa I would like to meet up with any of you that are in my path so i can meet you in person and see your shops Andy I will be going to Scotland either next year or the year after that and will be in England to go see Martin Godfrey and attend a seminar on the Woodrat I hope to get a good handle on using it It makes Dovetails better than my best hand cuts except the pins are slightly fatter but they are ten times better than any other router jig and who would have thought it was because they use High Speed Steel Instead Of Carbide tipped cutters .

Any Way I would Love to come see your shop Andy Maybe you will have your bench done before I come


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Sam, it's Minwax stain, Red Oak is the color. And Jason, that's some good stuff you've done to that D8, too!

Someday I hope to fully understand the detail behind sharpening saws that Andy clearly knows…


----------



## Brit

Dude - The Woodrat is the best router jig ever made IMO. Very versatile and great for the small shop and small production runs.

There's not much to see in my shop though, since it's my back garden. LOL.


----------



## thedude50

I have too agree Andy.It seems every day i use it I learn a new task it can do it is truly the amazing woodrat


----------



## bandit571

Of the five saws I picked up the other day, all but one has been identified. No-Name Saw:









Does NOT match anything I've seen from Mr. Henry Disston, as far as the handle goes. Bolt pattern is way different. Blade itself is about 1/2" LONGER than the other 26" blades I have.

I have yet to uncover any etch on the blade. Hardware is "mixed', thinking replacements, somewhere in the past. That 8 point blade is SHARP, as is. A different view









Also, look at the top of the handle, notice the way things are turned around?


----------



## need2boat

Bandit,

It can really be a challenge finding info on saws that use the Warranted Superior nuts. Often they were used on second line production saws or on smaller named producers that didn't have the funding to make there own nuts. That number on the handle could be a patten number so you could search that. I think there is a complete list of saw pattens on the  wk fine tools site .

Your best shot is to find a stamp or etch. Other then that you can thumb the steel, to get an idea of of how much temper/spring it has. Also check it its tapered. Often on the smaller manufactures they stamped rather then etched. So spend sometime looking over the plate and see how it goes.

I'm guessing your not interested in resale so at the end of the day it's more about the saw then who made it.

Joe


----------



## bandit571

This saw maybe a 'keeper". I like the handle on this one. The others will be fixed up for resale. I'll keep a few different ones. let's see, which D-8 do i sell, or keep?????


----------



## dbray45

For saw handles, I have gotten really good results with 0000 steel wool and BLO. It cleans things up grime nicely and leaves the finish underneith smooth. You have to treat the steel wool carefully for spontanious combustion.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

"notice the way things are turned around"

^ Keep looking, not seeing anything weird. (?)

The 'tall' saw nuts on that last one. As a general rule, does that style indicate an older saw, like, 1880s or so? Thought I read that before, maybe even in this post long ago…


----------



## dbray45

You know Smitty, I think you are right-

http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/medallionpage.html


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Don't tell my wife.

Eh, never mind. She wouldn't believe you anyway…


----------



## dbray45

This is another good site
http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/medv2.html


----------



## need2boat

Smitty,

I would say your looking at Late 1800 to early 1900 but it's are to tell. Warranted Superior nuts tend to follow the disstion style and the high dome style nuts I've see were only used for a short time. I've seen them on No 7 that falling into the 1890 time frame.

Joe


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Thanks to Joe and David, excellent stuff. I love this site for the people that frequent it…

So there you go, Bandit! You've got great taste in saws, nice score. Excellent saw! How's the rehab coming?


----------



## need2boat

Here's a configuration you don't see every day. In prep for cutting 15ppi teeth on a backsaw I used one of my tester saw plates to make sure everything is set properly on the foley.

Not everyday you see a 15ppi hand saw. ;-)

Joe



















I'll post some pics of the back saw shortly


----------



## racerglen

Here's a bit of a strange find..









German made Craftsman saw, aparently either designed to have the handle at either end, or someone changed it.
The etch is on the back, or right side of the handle so at some point it must have had the handle on the other side.

















There are enough indications, wear marks arround the exposed holes to show the handle was there at some time..or….Was it a two handled saw ?

;-)


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

They wanted to cut on the pull? What a strange thing to do.


----------



## racerglen

The funny thing is it cuts on the push..if I had the gear i'd get a shot of the teeth,
Maybe I should try a push me, pull you and see if it goes both ways ?

(Al..BE QUIET !)


----------



## need2boat

That is strange. I would guess the handle was flipped for a reason. maybe to try it as a push saw or the handle was replaced?


----------



## donwilwol

A saw that goes both ways, ummm, I could see if it was french!


----------



## need2boat

Here's that Richardson saw I replaced the plate on. In looking at the images, that's not the old plate from that saw but it gives you the idea.

I have a few saws that have either cut down, bent or just rusty plates that I wanted to save due to good back and handles. I'm really happy with he results I still need to buff out plates a little. The metal comes clean but not polished. This saw is toothed to 15ppi with 10 rake and 8 fleam. Which is a nice set up for cutting small tenons. It's easy to start and you can cut both rip and cross rather well considering the rake.

I finding filling smaller teeth like this with slight angles to be the hardest but they really do cut well on thiner hard woods with no tare out.

Joe


----------



## Brit

We are not worthy Joe. What a gorgeous saw! What gauge steel did you use? .025"?


----------



## bandit571

I stopped downtown (again) and picked up a couple of panle saws, those short bladed, "I wanna be a saw when I grow up" types. $4. One has a "steel" Disston Medallion, with the chain around the "Scales', and U.S.A. on the bottom edge. The other saw? A work in progress, we'll see WHAT it is after awhile.

A "Disston" No.7


> ?? For $2


? Luck of the Irish, Laddie-buck????


----------



## dbray45

I bought a Disston #2 Compass saw not long ago. It looks like someone tried to sharpen it, I think. Towards the handle it was sharpened as a crosscut saw and about half way up, I am thinking, they tried a rip configuration - with a 10 degree slant to one side (all the same side).

I sharpened it to a crosscut the whole length.

Does anyone have any experience with these saws? I have tried to get info on it and I am not having a lot of luck.


----------



## need2boat

Andy,

I just replaced these with the same thickness plates they had. This one is .020 and the 14" simmons which is older plate sitting in the front is .025.

I put deeper plates on both as I look but wasn't sure if the extra width would effect how it cuts. I think the 12" Richardson I may cut down a little but the 14" Simmons a better feel and look. I'll post some pictures tonight.

I have a 2 Compass saw I haven't had a lot of time to look at. one was my grandfathers and the other is random late 1890's disston. It's my understanding they are normally filed middle of the road with a little rake and fleam like 10 rake/15 fleam or 5r / 20f. Matt had info on his saw blog about them.


----------



## bandit571

Little disston is a shorty saw. Nickel plated steel hardware. Handle end of the blade is a straight cut, Tool Box saw prototype?

The other little saw….. Blade is TRASH. The handle, however, has some possible options to it. Held with four Brass rivets. The "Medallion" seems to be a onesided affair, nothing shows up on the other side of the handle. Medallion is Brass, though. Does the name STEIGO ring any bells out there?????Blade will go to the trash can, the handle, though…...

Don't like the Disston handle, too 'boxy". Just two sawnuts ( only one was there) and a hole for the medallion. Thinking maybe a Franckensaw coming up. STEIGO handle on a Disston blade????

How DO you get those #


Code:


#

 rivets off, anyway???? ( pictures later, need a nap right now)


----------



## bandit571

After looking up the No.7, I took a look at the #76. Much closer.

Note: As for the STEIGO saw, i can see why the blade is JUNk…... Made in china. However, the handle option is still in effect. I CAN Drill out those rivets, I think, and start to put "regular bolts" aka Sawnuts in their place.

( I have NEVER seen a saw blade in an "S" curve before…..WOW!)

Disston blade is decent enough, just needs to be re-drilled for the "new' handle.

Keystone Pace Maker now has all it's hardware in place. Will re-finish the wood part later.

Pictures???? Yeah, yeah, i'll get them in a bit. Might have quite a bit of "eye candy" coming up….


----------



## bandit571

Ok, here is the "Eye Candy": Disston Shorty saw:









My "Made in China" Steigo saw









Next up, some more Disstons









The No. 76??









The D-8:









The Keystone's etch









And the handle









The D-23 "Orphan saw"









A Family Portrait?









Etch by Mr. George H. Bishop









And the handle for the saw, "Greyhound" one at that. Seems i still have a lot of work to do…..


----------



## SamuelP

Has anyone seen a handle like this?










I mentioned this a week or so ago and just got to the pictures. It has a warranted button, but i do not think the plate or hardware are original.










Yes, that is a metal handle. It is heavy. it looks a bit like aluminum, but it is not, might be some sort of alloy though.



















If nothing else it is worth the $2 price tag to have hanging around.


----------



## need2boat

Sam,

I think if you pull the handle what you'll find is someone made a replacement handle and reused the old hardware. D8s have always been popular so they may have just copied it.

Joe


----------



## SamuelP

It does not look home made though. It looks as though it was manufactured.


----------



## racerglen

Well, I tried the backsaw when I got home and YES it cuts both ways, it prefers to start a cut on the push stroke, but once going it does go both ways and prety good (It's the saw I used for the afore meantioned miters)
Pictures arent that great..








Just trying to show the teeth..


















then there's this Franken saw created from a Gruco nest of saws blade and a flea market handle..









Similar teeth..
and my D-12









Baffles me what they were trying, but it works, weird teeth and all..I've never touched it to sharpen so that's someone elses thought..


----------



## racerglen

Sam, the closest I've seen is the D-100 Diston put out in the '60's with a cast aluminum handle with a wood insert at the "back".
Mine lives on the wall, just like you're saying yours will..not a comfey saw.


----------



## need2boat

Sam,

I think the odd placement of the nuts on the handle and the misshaped horns plus the color all say it was done by a DIYer to me but again I'd need to have it in my hands to really make a call.

Joe


----------



## need2boat

Guys,

I heard from Mike Wenzloff this week! As I had thought he's been going through some personal issues and just hasn't been answering or replying to email. I think this past week was the first one he's been in the shop. I am happy to report my miter saw is on it's way back and I look forward to giving it a go!

I'm not sure what the future will hold but hopefully he can get things in better working order as his saws are first rate and Mike is a good person.

Joe


----------



## carguy460

Very cool saws on this thread - I'm green with envy!

Quick question, and perhaps the answer is out there already and I'm too ignorant to find it (sorry if so!): Both of the panel saws I have restored are filed crosscut - I'm ready to start building something instead of working on tools, so I would really like to sharpen both saws, one crosscut, one rip. Do I take the set out of one and just start filing the teeth with a rip profile, or will that not work? Do I have to file everything flat and cut all new teeth (wow I hope not!) Also, what is the best way to take the set out of the teeth?


> Hammer


 Vise? Super special tool??

As you can see, I'm pretty clueless…thanks in advance for the help yet again…hopefully someday I can pay it forward and share my knowledge, but I don't have any to share yet!


----------



## dbray45

I would leave the set. Straightening out the teeth can leave a bunch of broken teeth.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Here's a handle for a Craftsman mitre, marked for reshaping…


----------



## SamuelP

Does "Brad" know you took his saw?


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

He gave it to me, actually… ;-)


----------



## bandit571

Handle to be looks firmiliar, almost like a Walnut one i cobbled up:









Version No. 1









Version No. 2


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Progress tonight.









Not my best work, clearly… Disappointed in the outcome, but it's a 4-finger handle and those I probably shouldn't try to dress up with lipstick, try as I might.


----------



## thedude50

Car guy I would say I would just get another saw as a true rip saw will have a toot count of 8 or less, and a cross cut saw will be 9 or more. this i was told by the saw god Matt cianci ..I wanted to do what your talking about and he told me to buy a rip saw and to use it for ripping that means 8 tpi or less. now i have found out since then I like the 8 tpi rip saws the best. out of the 20 that i have the 8tpi starts the cut the easiest however once the cut has been started the bigger tooth 6 tpi is a hell of a lot faster. I have only been ripping by hand a few weeks and it is not for boys it is a real mans job. I have mussels in my arms again. i know why i love this it makes me alive again. my lines are getting better I am about to build my replica of Matt's rip bench. should be a blast, I think my beam will be a soft wood though not much white oak here in Fresno. I may go to my old ranch and grab a tree trunk though and hand hue the log for a beam to make the table. this is all speculative though I hope this helps you in your work.


----------



## carguy460

David - I think you're right about leaving the set…the more I read about it, the more I realize I should never try and bend the teeth to remove set.

Dude - You make a good point…I was just trying to be lazy and not have to restore another saw right now and start actually cutting wood. Out of the 6 saws I have, only one is filed rip…my grandpa was a carpenter, so I'm guessing he didn't rip stock much?? Anyway, I guess I will just restore that rip saw instead of trying to convert one of my completed crosscuts…only problem is that the rip is in pretty rough shape, and I'll have to repair the handle. Yet another opportunity to do something for the first time I guess…

Thanks for all the help everyone!


----------



## need2boat

Carguy,

The thing about changing from CC to rip is in the process of changing rake angles from either lower or higher it's very hard to seat the file in the saw plate. So although it's not needed to joint the teeth any more then you normally would I've found the lower you joint them the easier it is to seat the file so it's a trade off. I normally joint 80%-90% down and then file back.

This is a No 7 I had that was last filed for wet, soft wood which is useless for most people these days. 









Jointed down about 80%









Filed back rip, 0 rake









Dude,

Those rules of CC and rip are just guide lines you'll often find they are broken all the time depending on peoples needs.


----------



## dbray45

Good job !!


----------



## need2boat

Yea,

I've really been kicking my ass lately trying to hone my skills filing some low angle Rake and Fleam on carcass & tenon saws. The lower angles I'm finding are a bit trickier, then add finer 13,14,15 ppi teeth an it's a little stressful. I just got through the 2nd one. It's a 14" Simmons I filed 5 Rake and 10 Fleam. Finished it up this AM but didn't have time to clean the saw nuts, put the handle on and test cut!

For all you out there looking to start I would really recommend going with something like the above picture 5 ppi.

I'll post some pictures later it's a real looker.

JFF


----------



## donwilwol

My son sent me a text this morning "hey, I left you a present in mom's car"


----------



## SamuelP

I hope you vacuumed out her car.


----------



## need2boat

OMG Don, It's really nice he's thinking of you but maybe a little talk on what's a keeper and what really is better off leaving in the wood shed.

I bought some saws right after this thread was started that were stored in a basement that got water in it and I guess they just sat there. It was real shame as the handles were nice and for the most part the saws were really bad other then 4-6" of the tips were rusted off. I ended up saving them for tester saws in my retoother. That image posted this week of the 15ppi saw was one.

Joe


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Holy crap, those are nasty. Any hope for either of them?


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## donwilwol

there's always hope Smitty. I'm not sure about time.


----------



## need2boat

This weekend was the spring Craft show auction and tailgate. I'm new to the group but it's a club for lovers of old tools, some collectors others are users.

They have monthly meeting that I've not had the chance to make as of yet but they always start with a tail gate and who among us doesn't love that!

I got there early as I really couldn't hang around for the auction but did want to see the tailgate and maybe but a few to restore. I blown away by some of the nice saws there. The prices reflected it but everyone was happy to let you pick up and talk about things. I did get to finally look at a panther saw in hand. The plate on this one was in bad shape I took a few pic for the rest of use who never seen one. I thumbed it and I guess do to the rust on the saw plate the spring was mostly gone.

I did pick up the cleanest no 7 I've seen in a group of other 4 saws. more on that later


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## terryR

Thanks for sharing those panther saw photos, Joe, although that one has seen better days, huh? That poor saw deserves to go home with a master like yourself to be restored properly! Too bad the guy behind the table has to make a profit for carrying it around…

I had a bit of beginner's luck yesterday…straightened the back, and thus blade, on a 100 year pld Disston with a single hammer blow! pure luck.

But my luck soon ran out when next I tried to replace a broken horn on the tote! The actual woodworking part came out great…shaping was easy with my new Gramercy rasp…but my beech looks nothing like the old handle, and the Danish oil highlighted that fact even more! bummer.

Any chance Disston used a piece of maple that day in the factory? I'm hacking off what I did yesterday, and trying again with hard maple this morning…and I think I'll avoid oil when finishing…maybe tinted Minwax poly???


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## need2boat

He was asking 800.00 but was willing to take 500.00 and I didn't say anything but was thinking it was worth 100.00 I guess because of what it was but the plate didn't even have a good tone to me and that's a must if I'm buying. ;-)

I've not see maple used. 90% are beach, apple or mahogany but maples a good wood for handles so it's possible.

Do you know what number saw it is?

Joe


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## terryR

OMG! $500? I didn't realize they were THAT rare!

I'm pretty sure my little Disston is a No. 7 from 1900-1918 judging from the medallion and proud v-notch on the handle. I've never heard of maple being used…but this old beech has more figure than any I've seen. Heck, maybe I should sand it back to bare wood and post it…could be bleached out apple?


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## terryR

Hey, maybe this is a good time to ask the Disston gurus…

How do you tell a No 4 from a No 7 backsaw? How does the blued steel look compared to the polished after all these years? Is there a secret?


----------



## need2boat

Terry,

I don't know all the models myself but mostly use the disstonian institute for figuring things out. I don't think they made a No 4 did you mean 8?

JFF


----------



## donwilwol

thanks for the picture of that panther saw Joe. I've never seen on either.

As for the grungy saws, I don't leave anything in the tool shed anymore. Even if its just for the saw nuts. I haven't had a chance to even look to see if they are worth saving.


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## bandit571

I have been using a "blend" of Minwax Ipswich pine, and Gloss poly. A wipe on finish for this old saws. Seems to match the old colours closely.









This is an Atkins saw that i had sanded back to bare wood. The finish is on right now. I also applied some to a Disston D-8 today:









Didn't have a brush handy, so i used an old, wadded up piece of 0000 steel wool. I even tried a little on the etch









Seemed to bring the etch out a little bit better. The bad news? I ran out of the mix today. Have to wait until this weekend for any more….


----------



## ShaneA

Alright Don, and saw experts, I am thinking of delving into the handsaw world. Heaven help the pocket book. Sorry if this question has been asked a million times before. I am thinking new, because sharping and restoring really dont appeal to me at this time. Would like to try dovetails (other than my PC jig) maybe a cross cut and rip saw. I see veritas saw are "reasonably" priced for a set of 3. Can a hack like me make a go of these? Are the LN or other brands a noticeable upgrade for a first time user? What about japanese versions. A few saws for a $150 seems to be an easier pill to take vs $150 each. But if a $150 saw is the "only" way to go….it will be a longer road. Any insight saw gurus? Thanks


----------



## SamuelP

To ALL - I have a badly dried out handle that needs glue as well. I would like to attempt to save it. Would my first step be to glue it up and then soak in BLO or BLO and then glue it up? Is there another way?


----------



## racerglen

Sam, I'd glue then BLO..Don't think the BLO fiirst would be good for the glue ?


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## donwilwol

I second the "glue up first".

Shane, dovetails are fun but somewhat of a challenge the first few times. I only have the flea market saws, but have seen the LN and they look great. Some of the guys here resell, so maybe they can help out.


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## dbray45

Before you glue - check with the company to make sure the BLO doesn't affect it.


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## lysdexic

Shane,
As you know, during the choosing of tools, the virtues of new versus vintage is totally personal. That said, my first (and only)dovetail saw was a Veritas dovetail saw. It was most aptly described by a well known TV personality whom I have taken a couple classes with. He described the Veritas saws a vagina tools. "They are ugly, but they sure feel good."

Now we can safely assume that Roy has strong vintage taste but his statement, I think, suggests that the Veritas saws function just fine. It is a question of style.

I like mine. It was reasonably priced and readily available. I use it. However, my since of aesthetic as muted to favor vintage. I would love to find an killer, vintage dovetail saw but I am afraid that the purchase cost and rehab effort/cost to get it to perform on par with the Veritas may not be worth it.

The ultimate answer is a Bad Axe or LN. But I am just not to motivated to drop the coin anymore.

Hope this helps.


----------



## need2boat

Shane,

If your looking new I really think for the price the LN is a nice choice. I'm not the biggest fan of the handle finish but that's an easy fix and often they can be found used with little use for around 70.00. I bought mine used local with a few other items and even having others to choose from still really enjoy it.

Joe


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Shane - There's always the option of buying vintage, and having the saw professionally tuned for use. It's not for everyone, but it is what I did. Seeing and using 'pro-sharp' on a saw taught me what sharp is. And I won't say that sharpening is easy, but it ain't rocket science, either. Decent, vintage saw vises are typically under $20 when you find them in the wild, and files are cheap as well. A saw set costs some $ for a good old one, but set doesn't have to be put on a saw every time it's sharpened so that can be put off.

Now, your original goal was cutting dovetails on the cheap (or via budget friendly methods). You know it's been done effectively with a hacksaw? It's not a gimmick… If you don't want to go there, you can go with a Gent's Backsaw from a BORG… Takes a bit more time, because it's a fine tooth count, but is actually quite an effective dovetail saw for the occasional user.

My .02.


----------



## bandit571

One can even use a coping saw ( I have) for dovetails. Even Underhill does. You can put different toothed blades in them, cut the lines, and even saw out the waste.


----------



## donwilwol

Shane, just an FYI, I have a Distton back saw that had a nice handle and the back was good, but the blade was pitted to bad to save.. Matt Cianci quoted me a price of $70 for a new blade, sharpened to my request and ready to go. I haven't done it yet (I'm not sure I need it right now) but thats another option as well.


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## mochoa

I bought the set of two "carcass" saws from Veritas and they are great. They are the best value for quality saws out there right now. Any objections to them are purely due to their style.

I haven't heard great things about the set of 3. The problem with that set of 3 is that you get two dovetail saws one fine and one super fine. You don't need both. If you want three get the two carcass saws and the regular dovetail saw. I haven't gotten the dovetail saw yet, just the two carcass saws.

On the super cheap I would get a $10 Zona saw. You can get them at Rockler, or Hobby stores, or Amazon. They cut great and they are Schwarz approved!


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## bandit571

I'm thinking about thinning the "Herd" of saws in the shop. 14 saws is too many. might sell the big Disstons, and keep just the shorter saws. Got three backsaws to work into the shop as well.

Note; That Bishop saw will stay here. The Atkins saw isn't ready to leave,just yet. That Hybrid saw stays put.

not sure WHAT to ask for those disstons, though. Two D-8s, a No.76, a keystone, a Rancher, a D-23, and a Townsman. What a group.


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## need2boat

Per Don's comment I've had great results replacing the plates on otherwise good backsaws and it's a great way to go if you've already got the saw. This is a Richardson pictured below.


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## lysdexic

Need2 - now that right there tricks my trigger. If I come across another back saw, and i know I will, I'll refurb/replate it for a dovetail.


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## terryR

Joe, just noticed you changed your signature…excellent! I was just about to ask if you sharpened plates for cash.

as soon as my satellite will allow access to eBay, I'll be in touch…or are you swamped with requests already?


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## donwilwol

Joe, I didn't realize you resold like that either. Do you sharpen? If so, do you have a rate guide? I may have you do my backsaw.


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## lysdexic

Yea, I need my old Tyzack saw sharpened as well.


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## need2boat

You guys are quick for sure. I just changed it today. It's something I've been working to for the last few month or so. Mostly I was hopping to drum up a little local work sharpening or offering retoothing plus sell through ebay. The guys at TFWW offered to let me leave cards there and that's what I was working towards.

Pricing without seeing the saw is really hard for me. Sharping saws 12" and under would be around 20.00 and larger saws around 30. The issue is how bad the teeth are. If I need to reshape all of them that would be a bit more.

If anyone in interested you can email me directly at joefederici(at)earthlink.net and I'm happy to give you an idea. I will also be working on a price sheet I just haven't finished it up. Right now I do have more then I'd like in the to be finished pile so if your looking for a refurbished saw May have something.


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## SamuelP

I would like a saw sharpened as well.


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## ShaneA

Thanks for the info fellas. Good point Mauricio… I was questioning the 2 dovetail saws. I am leaning to veritas for price and ease, at this point. Trying not to fall down the vintage rabnit hole like I did on plane. Fine or super fine on the dovetail saw? Probably a wide range of future thickness dovetaills.

Thanks again!


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## mochoa

Shane, I feel like I can cut DT's just fine with the Rip Tennon (Carcas) saw. Some might say its to course at 12tpi.


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## mochoa

The "super fine" is 20tpi.


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## Brit

Wow, this thread has had a spurt. Just catching up.

*Joe* - Congrats on your new venture. I hope it works out for you.

*Shane & Mauricio* - Unless you are making lots of boxes out of 1/2" or less material, I wouldn't go for a 20tpi dovetail saw. The 16tpi Veritas dovetail saw would be a better choice if you're only going to buy one saw for dovetailing.

Personally, I have the Gramercy saws. Their dovetail saw is 18tpi with 0 rake and I like it a lot for thinner stock. I could cut 3/4" stock with it, but it would take longer than a 15 or 16tpi saw. Like Mauricio, if I was cutting dovetails in a 3/4" carcass, I would use my Gramercy rip carcass saw (also 0 rake) which is 11tpi. Remember though that it is not just about tpi. Tooth geometry, plate thickness, the weight of the spine, the angle at which you approach the cut and your ability to keep all the teeth engaged in the cut, will also affect how fast/well a saw cuts in your hand. I would also add that, as with any hand tool, you've got to practice sawing with any saw to get the best out of it. Holding the saw with a relaxed loose grip, taking the weight of the saw when starting a cut so the teeth just skim the surface, using the full length of the blade, developing a consistent sawing motion and your stance, are also important factors. You can feel, hear and see when a saw is cutting well.

As you know, I have three Gramercy backsaws (dovetail, rip and crosscut carcass). I love these saws and would recommend them to anyone. However, I can't begin to tell you how much I have learnt about backsaws by restoring my vintage saws and you just can't buy that guys. Some people would rather buy new and there's nothing wrong with that, but saws only work well when they're sharp. If you don't learn how to sharpen your own saws, you will have to send them out. That means you will be without your saw for at least a couple of weeks. I can touch up a backsaw in about 10 minutes and it is ready for tomorrow. The point I'm making is that IMO, it is a skill worth learning that will save you money in the long run.

I'll shut up now. 

No I won't. *Joe*, how did you cut the new plate for you backsaw? Do you have a guillotine or did you use snips? I have enough plate for about four tenon saws and a wonderful old English saw from 1849 that needs a new plate so I'm curious how you cut the plate.


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## RGtools

I am with Andy on this. Which is why my go to saw is a Sears Craftsman 15 point saw that I re-did the teeth on. After getting one of those up and running (the factory tooth geometry is a nightmare) you can pretty much sharpen anything.

The Grammercy saws are pretty though…


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## mochoa

Thanks for that Andy, great input. I am not against buying used, I have just one panel saw which I've resored and sharpened myself. The reason I bought new is because (it was my Christmas present and you cant get rusty tools on Christmas) and the price of dovetail saws on ebay were a little high when I was looking.

I would love to score a vintage brass backed dovetail saw, its on my list.

However, Andy, do you think at least having those couple of new saws helped you understand what a saw should feel like when properly sharpened?


----------



## Brit

Definitely Mauricio. I don't want to put anyone off buying new saws. There are some great saws to choose from nowadays from Lie Nielsen, Adria, Badaxe, Veritas, Mike Wenzloff, Two Lawyers and Blackburn Tools.

I'm just saying that to me at least, it wasi just as important to learn how to sharpen my own saws as it was to learn how to sharpen a plane iron.


----------



## need2boat

Andy,

Thanks, and that's great advice and I hadn't thought about the TFWW saws. They are great and you can also buy them as kits which kind of splits the difference!

I have access to a B2 beverly shear but the guy I buy it from will cut to basic size. The price of the beverly shears even used (500.00) are a bit more then the extra few bucks I pay for it cut to size so for the now I get it cut to size and just use my friends for anything extra.


----------



## thedude50

Andy, I am going to learn to make my own saws too. I will probably have to give them away at first but i do love the idea of making my own high end tools and doing it better than the other guy. Any of you know where to get things i will need like plate material and back material and how one goes about making a good saw.


----------



## bandit571

looking at selling a few of my Disston collection. Trying to find a box to ship a handsaw inis getting to be a chore. post ofice: Tape two boxes together? Buster Brown (UPS) ; Could make your own box, but we can't insure it.

Options? Bubble wrap, and plain brown paper?? Christmas Wrapping paper?

How much does the shipping cost of a saw?

Questions, questions and more questions. Kind of new at this…..


----------



## RGtools

Ups will kill you on price if you haven't negotiated with them. I would go with the method BAD AXE Reccomends.


----------



## bandit571

Thank Sir, I will keep that in mind. Seems i have some sorting to do









There are about eleven saws sitting there….


----------



## ShaneA

Ok guys, bout to begin another slide on the slippery slope. unless there is serious objection…i see the veritas rip and crosscut carcass saws at craftsmanstudio.com for $119 free shipping. Am I ok in thinking this is a place I can start w/o too much cost and heartache? Give me a chance to test the waters per se. It is cheaper than lee valley sells them…plus I am thinking they will hold my simple, yet unknown needs? Thanks


----------



## lysdexic

Yea Shane. Like all Veritas stuff, it is excellent quality at a reasonable price that is readily available. I doubt that they will be your lat saws. At some time in the future you can find a super vintage saw and learn the refurb and sharpening.

But those two saws will get you going doing dovetails and joinery.


----------



## bandit571

like maybe one of these?









They are for sale….....


----------



## lysdexic

Wait. What do you want the carcass saw for? The DT is obvious. If you don't have a burning needed for an xcut saw right now, I'd like to change my answer.

Buy a LN DT saw For $125. You will be happy with it forever. Then buy a inexpensive Japanese saw for xcuts. As time goes on and budget allows you can get a proper carcass saw.

I have the Veritas DT saw and I would like to replace it. Just because it's style is too out of place.


----------



## ShaneA

Scott, I know nothing about saws. I was thinking a small x cutt and rip would be a foot in the door. Is it not possible or realistic to hack out some dts w/ a rip carcass saw? Feel free to call me an idiot…if the shoe fits.


----------



## bandit571

hack out some D/Ts/ I have used a coping saw to do that. One can get a few different blades for a coping saw, and rough a bunch out. THEN come back and pare them down with a few good chisels…


----------



## RGtools

Shane. I agree with Scott's second answer. Grab the rip saw. With a fine tooth config you should be able to do any joinery crosscuts that come your way (just chisel a v notch in the waste of your cut…it makes your cuts cleaner and it's more accurate.)...anything above 12 ppi should do passable x-cut even when filed rip (with either a relaxed rake or a touch of fleam) at 15 tpi and above you will get good results even with a dedicated rip.

Grab a good saw that's comfortable (LN 15tpi Rip small carcase saw would be a good all around bet at 137, but anything will work ), And grab a Sears Craftsman $9 saw and refile it until it cuts well at that point you will have a decent saw and a spare as well as the skills to maintain them.

Of course you could just buy the two Veritas and fall in love with those…I see no problem with that.


----------



## ShaneA

So 1 LN vs 2 LV? Interesting…


----------



## mochoa

I vote for the two LV saw. Which is what I opted for. I will later hunt for nice vintage DT saw. I agree that the rip does crosscurts pretty well but starting it is a little trickier cause it has less rake.


----------



## thedude50

Shane I am in the ln camp, while i was not pleased with the way they sharpened my two saws they are both very fine saws and they hold their edge very well. I have been practicing hand cut dovetails for about an hour each day for the past few weeks. I got both of my saws on eBay for 100 dollars each both were brand new they may have cut a few times but you couldn't tell, and both were sharpened exactly the same way. They are both rip 15 tpi. I cant saw what the geometry was for the sharpening but I can say they do cut fine I just don't like how they act on the start of the cut. Matt says that is a common complaint about how LN sharpens their saws and that he will change them to a better geometry as soon as they need to be sharpened.what I do like is the totes they feel great and the saw sings once you start the cut and are going good your done before you go 6 strokes. the kerf its thin in fact it is so thin I cant use my coping saw to clear out the waste. I have to buy a new fret saw as well that will be another 100 dollars for the one I want. It never ends my friend never it is like a hemorrhage that wont stop bleeding. So all that said I would buy a rob cosman saw first a LN second third a gramercy and forth a bad axe saw all things being equal I would move Bad axe up if the had saws ready to buy but they don't they are out of them all the time.


----------



## lysdexic

Shane, 1 LN rip/DT and one big box $10 saw for xcuts. It is the DT action that you want to play around with isn't it ?

Get a fancy xcut later. But the LN saw you will be satisfied with forever.

I am by no means an expert on saws but I've become an excellent woodworking tool *consumer*. The motivation for my advice is that I bought the Veritas. It is a fine saw. But I wish that I had bought the LN or vintage. Now, it is MUCH harder to justify getting what will make me happy because I already have something that works fine. I just wish that I had bought something with classic styling in the first place.

Here is something to consider. I could sell you my Veritas DT saw (used pricing) and I'll get the LN. I would love to get a Bad Axe but I am not waiting 7 months again.

I hope this helps you.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Dude said : the kerf its thin in fact it is so thin I cant use my coping saw to clear out the waste. I have to buy a new fret saw as well

Is this true for any of the LN backsaws? Never heard that before, and it is an important trait depending on your method of cutting dovetails.


----------



## mochoa

Scott makes a good point Shane, if I really think about it, I would have gone for LV dovetail saw and the xcut carcus saw but they don't sell that combo. You are after all making DTs anyway… I do like the classic look of LN better… A lot to think about,


----------



## lysdexic

Food for thought…....


----------



## Brit

And don't forget these…

Adria Dovetail saw:










Gramercy Dovetails saw:










And here's a new offering from a brand new saw maker - Blackburn Tools










The face is though, any of these saw will cut clean dovetails.


----------



## terryR

Shane, I feel sorry for ya…I hope you knew all these guys were tool collectors AND saw geeks…I bet they each have 10-20 in the shop!  Getting the same answer might be tough…stick to your budget if poosible.

Although I agree with the theory of getting a decent rip saw first, a $10 xcut, then upgrade whatever you like.

But, I have to say, I have a love/hate with my new Gramercys dt and xcut carcass…love the way they cut…hate the way my 5 thumbs feel grabbing the handles. But I can fix the handles if you guys won't tell…

Hmmmm…kinda like those Blackburns, Andy.


----------



## thedude50

My LN has a kerf that is so thin yes it is true no coping saw blades this is true for the Rob Cosman saws too they are a lot alike but robs saw is a lot easier to start your cut both track very well. I am getting better at dovetails than I was back in the day and that is saying allot. I am very pleased overall with the lns I will be having one of them sharpened this week by my local guy. I have a few saws he has done and they seem to work well he has been sharpening for 50 years and i only wish he was a saw wright and could fix the bends and things. if he did restores i would be happy nahhh. I want to learn to do this stuff myself and to avoid the big cost of having it done.


----------



## ShaneA

I am leaning towards uncle Scott's Veritas offer, and then a premium rip saw next month. Probably LN. But I have time to change my mind based on how I like the Veritas.

Can you guys shed additional light on why the rip saw is "worth" the premium investment, while the x cut may not be at first? Thanks, as always for the help.


----------



## thedude50

hey shane not to mess you up but here is another fine option for a real craftsman like you and I and I think i may do one of these I d/l the directions and they seem strait forward and i think this is a cheeper way to get a greay saw http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com//Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=GT-DKIT.XX&Category_Code=CGT click the link and them think about it brother


----------



## mochoa

Shane, I dont think its that one is worth more than the other, its just that there are no good cheap rip saws like there are x cut saws. The cheap X cut japanes styles saws you can get at HD or even Harbor freight actually cut not to bad. Also, a fine tooth rip saw does cross cuts reasonably well.


----------



## ShaneA

Lance, that does seem like a way to save some $. I will consider it.

Thanks Mauricio, that makes sense. I was confused as to why the emphasis on rip in terms of cost and reccomendations.

Lots of choices, need a test drive with some of these gems. Looking forward to learning more.

Does it seem odd or mistaken to lean towards LN because they can resharpen for $15?

Thanks guys.


----------



## lysdexic

I just inquired about a Bad Axe DT saw. Turn around = 12 to 14 weeks. Man, over 3 months.


----------



## BrandonW

I just picked up this vintage bad boy:










It needs some work. I'm not sure what I make it is since the medallion (Warranted Superior) is obviously a late addition since it doesn't even fit right. It has a really dark patina but I think it should make for a really nice dove tail saw.


----------



## AnthonyReed

Nice Brandon.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

I like that little saw - looks like one to DT thinner stock, like drawer sides. Very cool, congrats on the score!


----------



## mochoa

nice saw Brandon, not much cleanup to do on that one.


----------



## lysdexic

Ok, so the roles have switched. Shane has agreed to buy my Veritas DT saw. Now, I am in search of new one. Bad Axe is out because my last 3 month order took 7. In my search, I may revisit Leech's April tool list and/or call Ed in the "Store above the Wood Wrights school" before going with a LN. Thoughts welcome.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop

RE: Saws in general, I don't see it being nearly the slippery slope handplanes are. And if you do find yourself with a lot of them (I have 'many,' but I would say I have too many) it's because they're available for next to no $. Apologies upfront because this reads as being less than respectful of saws. That is definitely not the case. But here are my thoughts on the general topic of 'acquiring saws.'

-Getting vintage saws ready to use really isn't that much effort compared to hand planes. With all respect due to the true artisans on this thread (and I'm thinking Andy), we can all refinish wood handles but really, many of them don't need to be refinished at all. Especially to work well. Do it if you want to, but if you don't that's okay too.

-Sharpening supplies are cheap compared to the jigs, stones, grinders, guides, etc. required to work irons of hand planes. Old saw vises are out there, typically less than $20 at fleas. And files are sold new, sets for less than $50 for more sizes than you'll likely need for a half-dozen sharpenings.

-Sharpening saws is a gateway skill like sharpening plane irons. Gotta learn it sooner or later…

-There aren't as many useful variations of handsaws out there for the mainstream user. Rip, x-cut, dovetail, sash/carcase. That's it. Want to play with stair saws, or various lengths, tpi, sawplates, etc? Well, buying 'one time,' new isn't gonna cure that ill.  Suffice to say, though, it's simple enough to get a core stable of users without going crazy, new or used.

I got into the saw business first by finding out what sharp was / had it done by a pro. Since then I've spent $50 total on a vise, clamshell jointer (file holder) and sawset to get my edges decent enough as I learn. Wow, if my plane addiction would have been so little… I've picked up almost a half-dozen saws for less than $12 total, with a couple of specialties running quite a bit more than that. They're old (no surprise), and filled the dovetail and dado niches as the first sash (back) saw I had for DTs proved to be simply too large to handle. Check out Walt Q for decent saws, as well as the Leachmeister. And hyperkitten has them every once in awhile, too. But if new is the thing, by all means. I've handled the Veritas saws, and they were very nice. I like the looks of them as well. If I'd buy a set, I'd probably look there first.

Yeah, this is a ramble. Sorry about that, because after all it's whatever you want to enjoy in this (sometimes) maddening passion. Just remember, the best saws ultimately get sharpened away and become scrapers! 

Good luck, Shane and Scott, on your choices and I look forward to show and tell whatever the search turns up!


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## ShaneA

Thanks Smitty. Nice informative post! I like the looks of the veritas saws too. Unlike their planes : )


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## lysdexic

Alrighty then! Smitty votes for Two Lawyers :^)


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## thedude50

smitty IMHO saws are at least as addicting as hand planes for me. I mean it I want the best saws I can find and while your right you can find them for not too much money they are more on this coast than on the other. I have purchased several saw sets and was directed to get a Stanley 42 x as it was the best these tend to go from 39 to 59 dollars if complete I have some that are complete and some that are for parts since the vise and hammer are the most commonly broken i got a few that are missing the anvil. I have no clue why someone would take the anvil off of one of these but they seem to do it frequently I have paid 20 dollars for the ones that are missing the anvils. I have paid as much as 200 dollars for a vintage dovetail saw and it was worth every penny IMHO it cuts nicer than my 2 brand new LNs and it feels better in the cut if that makes sence I want my ln to feel this way.

I had a real bummer this weekend Matt called and said my miter saw was electrically hardened on the teeth he had a name for it I don't recall what it was but it makes the saw useless unless I want to file off the teeth and then the blade will have no temper on the teeth or it will be very soft and wont hold an edge like it should it was a craftsman saw that came with a nice miter box and i will have to have him do my Disston miter box saws and hopefully I can get them shipped off asap and Have them ready to go I am working on a way to include the hand miter box onto my power miter box stand the only big issue is we made the bench pretty low for hand work It will be a work in progress


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## need2boat

Smitty,

I mean no disrespect but couldn't disagree more with the idea that planes are harder to repair, restore or keep in good working order then saws. I think you just have a different level at which you judge when something is good to go and ready for use.

I could teach you to sharpen a plane blade in 20 minutes. I'd be happy to have you show someone to sharpen a saw in that time, or better yet smith a saw plate straight.

I think rather most people have a love for plans and therefore see them in a higher light which is fine.

OK now that, that's said. I had a really great time in NH last weekend at the tool show and auction. I picked up about a dozen saws to rehab and few for my collection. I'll post a few pictures later.

Joe


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## bandit571

new saw project:









WS & M rip saw. getting a new Sycamore handle









I just have to get rid of that "spike" in the plate, though. Maybe a trip past the grinder???









Round-over bit, little sanding sleeve work, trip past the drill press, install some hardware, and a re-sharpening. About a week. I think….


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop

No disrespect at all, no worries Joe. Paul Sellers has a video here on LJs for iron sharpening that is, I think, 7 minutes and is an excellent resource that I've used. Is there a similar vid for saw sharpening that you know of? I learned from the points on the Disstonian Institute site, I think. Probably doing it wrong, too.


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## BrandonW

Planes have more moving parts and there are more places where one can make adjustments, but when it comes to sharpening and teeth-setting, saws seem like more work. I have a number of saws that need sharpening but I must confess that I'm a little intimidated by the process.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Ignorant or otherwise, I refuse to be intimidated by a handsaw.


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## BrandonW

For me, it's one of those things that I just need to spend some time practicing it. I don't really know where to start though.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop

FWIW, here's where I started (it wasn't the Disstonian Institute, sorry):

http://www.vintagesaws.com/library/primer/sharp.html


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## need2boat

Smitty,

don't mistake intimidation for for respect. I don't think you should fear them, just give them the respect they deserve. In the scope of hand tools saws are way higher on the food chain then just about anything but sharp sticks.Think about the technology use in making them it was quite advanced. Disston mixed there own secret formula of steel that was use for just blades and invented over a dozen machines to deal grinding, hardening and shaping them.

just food for thought.

Joe


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## donwilwol

Just pretend I copied and pasted everything Brandon said. Saws, not as fun as planes, a little intimidating, and I NEED to practice my sharpening.


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## mochoa

Have you guys seen the price of brass backed saws on ebay? Might as well buy a LN.


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## thedude50

Brandon I would point you to Brits blog to get started and the sawblog.com Matt has it going on. I thought it was you that turned me on to Matt in the first place. Now I cant recall who it was but it was one of the regulars in als thread. He is now working on my great grandfathers d7 what a joy to have my great grandpas and grandpas saw in a state it can be used in . This is going to be great I cant wait for it to be home all fixed up .

Brandon another resource would be Hodgeson and Grimshaw's books I found them for d/l on the web for free Matt recommends them and I think they are great I have to say after going through all the stuff Andy had put together for us and reading it all three times I think i have it figured out and the 2 books were great as well I also got a book coming fron Disston it was not a cheep book but it was worth it I cant wait for it to get here.

I will be getting a few lessons in person with an old saw guy named bob he is really a good guy and knows sharpening and will guide me through the process as a coach it is going to be a lot of fun


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## BrandonW

Mauricio,

Yeah, they're expensive! I got once saw for cheap that I thought could be brass, but once I started taking sandpaper to it, it looked to be only coated with brass.

Dude,

Thanks for the sources. I've read Matt's blog in the past! Great guy. I'll have to check out the books as well.


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## need2boat

Mauricio,

I haven't been watching the price of brass back online but for sure at the auction and tail gates they are going for big money. I think that's because you just don't see them here in the US as much and it drives demand. That said I don't think the brass really improve the saw over the steel back it just looks nicer. I tend to like the early US makes over the UK and most use steel. I did however find some good deal over the weekend on UK back saws so my taste may change. ;-)

The big scores for me was find a really early US maker R.H. Hoe. Hoe was one of the first American saw makers, operating in NY as early as 1828. Hoe brought over talented saw makers and grinders from Sheffield and had them teach their art at his factory. One of the saw makers he brought over was William Peace and his son Harvey. Harvey worked there from around 1849-61. Later, Hoe dropped saw making and focused on printing presses, which he became famous for.

I also scored a J.M. Drake's Sons and EM Boynton. Both really early US makers.




























Joe


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## donwilwol

Nice score Joe. I have a EM Boynton as well. Its a good rip.

I like the looks of the brass backed back saws, but haven't found one in my $2 price range yet.


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## mochoa

Joe that saw looks sweet.

Brass just looks cool, I guess the scarcity explains why its more expensive because brass isn't even an expensive metal.

Have you guys seen this kit on ebay? http://www.ebay.com/itm/150800497702?_trksid=p5197.c0.m619#ht_500wt_1156

I'm curious to see how much that goes for.


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## need2boat

Hey Don that's a really nice saw. I didn't take a complete picture of mine, just the handle as it's what I first noticed and why I bought it. As it turns out he had patented this handle design with a hole drilled in it to keep a file for sharpening the saw on the job. Cool idea. It would need to be a short file though. ;-)














































Joe


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## racerglen

Now that's neat, good catch Joe !


----------



## need2boat

Yea,

I've had some really great luck lately and what makes it even better is the people I've met have been super interesting as well.

JFF


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## BrandonW

Wow, very interesting saw, Joe!


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## Brit

Never seen one like that Joe. Never even heard of it before. Definitely got some novelty value.


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## need2boat

Yea I'm a sucker for anything off center. ;-) I guess it's the southpaw in me.

JFF


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## Bertha

Great review here by a fellow LJ:
http://lumberjocks.com/JeremyPringle/blog/29675#comment-1244140


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## bandit571

WS & M Co. rip saw: New handle project

First, the original (maybe) handle:









Used it as a"pattern" for a new blank of Sycamore ( 1" thick)









Then a trip out to the router table, and a 1/2" roundover bit









Then i cut a saw kerf to install the old plate:









It had been sitting awhile, got rusty, again. Anyway, got all the holes drilled, and counter bored for some hardware. Two originals (Brass) and two new shiny steel ones.









Still needs a finish on the handle, although I did do something about that rust









Still need to sharpen those big "choppers" some call teeth…..


----------



## thedude50

Steve I found a thing at Gramercyand they use several drill bits to make all torners I think it is a great Idea


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## terryR

I finally had time to complete a quickie restoration yesterday…An Atkins compass saw with 12" blade. I'm still searching the net for Atkins saw data, so have no idea how old this one is…but the hand-carved apple handle says older than me. 


















I jazzed up the tote a little with the fishtail, but not much else but sanding and cleaning. Finished with 2 coats of shellac then wax.

My wife has very small hands, and has claimed this saw as HER'S!  I suppose seeing old rusty tools refinished all the time has a positive affect on anyone…even SWMBO!


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## BrandonW

Terry, great restore! I love the reshaping you did on that saw. You can't go wrong with Atkins, either.

One question for the group. Have any of you purchased saws that were painted on? You know, the cheesy country side paintings or what not that cover the whole saw plate.  Is the saw still pretty easy to clean and use after that?


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## need2boat

Terry, looks sweet! I don't have a lot of info on Atkins either. I don't come across a lot of them in my area either. the Few I have seen all look nice. Most of there nuts were nickel plated so it makes them look a bit newer in years then they often are.

Brandon, If you've got a big enough container I'd say soak it in lacquer thinner. That what I use on handles when they are in really bad shape. I soak then for a bit and then scrub with steel wool or scratch pad. I then run the dirty thinner thru a filter back into a can and save for next time. You need to wear good gloves, mask, and work outside but it really does make quick work of the process.

JFF


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## Brit

Drool!!!! that's a beaut Terry. My guess would be 1940s.


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## racerglen

Realy nice Terry, that reshape sings !

Brandon..WHAT ARE YOU THINKING ?!
Like paint stripper, electrolosis and evaqporust all at once ?
I'm thinking you must have spotted a real treasure to even consider defacing a work of "art"

;-)


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## BrandonW

Thanks Joe! Glen, it sounds like it'll be an adventure. Now to find some "art."


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## need2boat

Just following up on a questions I've been emailed and asked about:

For the replacement plate I use on my back saws I used 1095 spring steel. It's sold in the same common sizes .015 020 .025 .032 and I'm sure more. You can find it on-line like or local. It normally comes blued so you need to sand or buff that off. I bought some local to me and he cut it to size for a fee. If you want to cut it yourself most people recommend either stomp shear or a slitting shear like the Beverly SS-2. I'd say if your looking for just a few pieces your better off finding someone local that will just cut and sell a few pieces.

If you end up getting some and need to toothed I can help out with that. I can tooth 4.5-16 ppi

Joe


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## Brit

I'm going to revise my estimate Terry and say late 1920s to early 1930s. I think it is an Atkins #2 compass saw.
I have an old scanned Atkins catalogue from 1931 which shows all their saws and there are also some interesting articles in it on setting up a shop. PM me with your email address if you'd like a copy. Likewise anyone else who'd like a copy.


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## need2boat

Here's some pics from a No7 I bought over the winter and just getting to. I'm a big sucker for the Disston No7. To me it's the best of all words when it comes to an American made workhorse; classic handle design and great Disston steel. Add to that the early sunken nuts and you've got a great saw worth a little extra time.

This one is from just after they switched from the split nuts. I didn't take a picture but I can tell this by the shaft of the nuts. When they first switched to the new design the shafts were very thin.



















This was a tricky repair. I ended up cutting a plug from old tool beach. The plug just goes thru the cheek. I'll go back and drill from the other side.










This plate had a few broken teeth and because it's a progressive rip starting at 5ppi I ended up needing to retooth by hand. 


















All and all I thin it will be a really nice user and with a little luck I can get the handled drilled and hopefully finished up next week.

More pics TK

Joe


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## terryR

Andy, thanks for the help with ID…PM coming…

Joe, I just received a Disston No7 in the mail this morning…nice old saw! Someone may have shortened the blade a bit and re-filed a nib? I can't wait to see yours finished!


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## need2boat

Terry,

I like the look of the the Bobed or docked saws. It give them a look of toughness. ;-) The one I'm working on is missing the nib but the plate is about 95% of the etch and the plates about full size.

Joe


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## thedude50

Joe I love the no7 too it and the 8 are my favorites I have several adkins saws and i am still on the prowell for a few more Terry that was a great job you did on that little saw my wife would never use a tool if it was the last thing around she would say she hates tools


----------



## terryR

I'm in the market for a new coping saw…or something similar for detailed curved cuts. Can anyone recommend a good brand name? thanks!


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## need2boat

Hey Terry,

I've used both an older Millers fall No. 43 and also the Olson's brand copping saws. Both worked fine for me. I took a dove tail class over the winter in Philly and the teacher was a big fan of the 3" fret saws. He used the one sold thru TFWW. He however liked a thicker blade .015 which is the same thickness as many DT saws.

For finer DT's I think it works great. It's a little more of a struggle to use and and set up, you need to bend the blade and tension it really well and until you've done it a few times it can add a little trickiness. I found however once i got it all tricked out and set they do work well. I read a lot about people braking blades and that hasn't been a big issue for me but I'm not cutting 100 at a time. ;-)

I can dig up the blade info if your interested it was also an olson.

JFF

Joe


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## bandit571

I have two older Stanleys, one of which is a "deep" cutter. Handles are a red coloured wood. As long as the blade is SHARP, and tensioned right, both saws work just fine.


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## terryR

^Thanks, guys, bandit hit the nail on the head…what I need are sharp blades. will check out TFWW site…


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## BrandonW

Have you seen the Knew Concepts fret saw? It's pretty sweet and I've heard nothing but great things about it, well except for the steep price of course!

http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/knew-concepts-5in-woodworkers-fretsaw.aspx


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## Brit

$95 dollars for a fret saw!!! Not in a million years.

I have both sizes of these Terry and it isn't only about having sharp blades, you also need to have the right blades. A lot of coping saws and fret saws that you buy are fitted with general purpose blades. The blades I use in both of these fret saws are 12.5tpi skip tooth blades. They cut fast and accurately. I use the smallest size for removing the waste from dovetails, but you'll notice that neither of these saws allow you to alter the angle of the blade. The way around that is to fit the blade, tension it and then grip each end of the blade where it meets the frame with a pair of pliers and twist the blade 30 degrees. You can then clear the waste out of any dovetails easily.


----------



## BrandonW

$95 dollars for a fret saw!!! Not in a million years. That's why I don't own it, Andy. But if you think about it, it's a very high-quality saw that looks sort of like a Bridge City Tools product, but you know if BCT sold it it would cost $500.


----------



## need2boat

I follow what Andy said and use the 3" version sold thru TFWW. but the blades they had in stock at the time were crazy thin so I bought some from Olson they are .015 thick to match my saw plate. They were recommended in the class I took ance set up cut well. I did find for DT's it is nice to reverse the blade so you cut on the pull stroke.

Joe


----------



## donwilwol

Terry, I bought Lee Valley's coping saw a while ago. While it was much better than the vintage craftsman and others I was using, it wasn't as much better as I expected.


----------



## terryR

Thanks gang…a bunch of nice-looking options so far! The Olson, LV, and Rob Cosman are all so affordable I don't understand why I've put up with my old homeD "saws" for so long???

I have to admit, I love the look of a wooden bow saw over any other…gotta build one someday…but they look so simple that I'm sure they require skill to use!


----------



## need2boat

Terry,

I've used the TFWW bow saw over at the store and It really cuts nice but would take some practice. It's slow cutting, and the balance since I had never used one seemed strange a first but does a beautiful job. at scroll work.

Joe


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## mochoa

From the PW Blog, its an article Schwarz wrote a while back about Wester Backsaws…
http://www.popularwoodworking.com/wp-content/uploads/WesternBacksaws1.pdf


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## thedude50

Ok guys I am pulling the trigger on the Knew concepts saw. I have tried for weeks to get this guy to let me evaluate the saw and he wont play tool supplier with me. I am thinking of adding his saws to my upcoming tool shop. but if I am going to be a dealer for these saws I have to see how the thing works is it worth the 100 dollars for the frame. I think i will still get my blade's from Robs line up but this saw just appeals to me. I know it caught Brandon's eye so I know it looks cool. But I am a performance based buyer. So if it sucks Ill sell it but if it Rocks Ill Keep it


----------



## BrandonW

Looking forward to hearing about it, Lance! Too bad they didn't send you one to review.


----------



## thedude50

ya that sucked Powermatic sends me a eleven hundred dollar drill press to review and this guy wont send me a had saw that costs him 20 bucks to make our site get 50thousand visits a month from real woodworkers and this guy would get a good review read by a few thousand people who thought it was worth reading the whole article and he wont send me a saw even at dealer cost and when i told him i would be selling them in my online store he said i would have to buy 5thousand dollars worth of saws at a time that's just crazy to turn away business in this economy


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## dbray45

Make a small bow saw that takes coping saw blades. Look under Mafe's blogs, he goes into great detail.


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## bandit571

Or, just go on a "walk about". I found this little guy, for a $1 yesterday…









a Disston/Porter No. 10. Nice big handle…...


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## terryR

Nice score, Bandit! If you slap a little rust on her, I'll give ya $5 for that saw!

Excellent blog by Mafe…Thanks, David!


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## affyx

i hope this is a good spot for this - picked up a disston #7 cheap, probably because it's got a bit of a bend to the blade. Has anyone heard of sticking the sawblade in the oven to straighten it? if so can I ask for some basic instructions? and any other methods you employ

this saw is too cool to throw away, still cuts great (i think it's a number 7, from the medallion it's vintage is 1896-1917)


----------



## Brit

JC - I've never done it myself, but I've certainly read about it. There was a good discussion on another forum, but I can't remember where it was. I'll see if I can find it again and post the link.


----------



## Brit

JC - Check out this discussion thread on the Sawmill Creek forum. I suggest you read the whole thread before trying any of it as they don't all agree on the correct approach.


----------



## lysdexic

Beautiful saw JC. Don't you dare throw her away.


----------



## affyx

Thanks Brit! Boiling water! wow! Yes, i'd better read it all…

Lysdexic, I won't; she's grown on me very quickly!


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## thedude50

Jc I am going to recommend you send it to Matt Cianci and have it done right.When done your no 7 in prime condition is was worth about 150 and will not go down in value. if it is in perfect restored shape this means pristine otherwise it is worth about 100 bucks or only about 40 on eBay the get it straight thing is done on a anvil I don't recommend you do it your self. Instead go to
http://thesawblog.com and email Matt and get it straight and sharp from a pro the price is right he just restored several saws for me and I could not be happier. I am all for doing things myself but this guy is the best and you want to have a saw your going to use right? If so have it done by a pro and it will be a joy to use. My great grandfathers saw is a delight to use and Matt did a great Job On it. He also did another Disston saw and it had 2 bends in it and it is arrow straight now.


----------



## lysdexic

JC, I also have had a saw straightened and sharpened by Matt. I am pleased with it.


----------



## affyx

Thanks guys; looks like he charges a fair price


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## thedude50

Yes and I know he is currently having the shortest wait time he has had in months. So ship your saw as quick as you can you pay when the work is done and please tell him I sent you and Scott too. I am sending him like 5 saws I have restored to work his magic. Tomorrow I will be meeting with bob I am going to be taking saw care lessons from him and he will teach me every thing he know about saws. I don't think Bob is a wright so he doesn't flatten the bent plates but almost anything else including how to sharpen Table saw blades. JC he is pretty close to you so freight wont kill you like it does me but Matt Is A great guy. I will always support his business even when I am skilled it will be because of what I have Learned from Matt and Bob. I am excited to be in training tomorrow. I hope you feel the same after he does your no7. no7s are my favorite saws then no 8s and then I like my old back saws. The sash saw and my Simmonds Dovetail saw are my favorite antiques. I do love my LN dovetail Saws.Next week We will Be Posting a new article from Matt On Our site and I would Like you guys to stop by this old workshop.com and follow Matt's articles

Hey Andy Are you awake yet ?


----------



## Brit

Yep, but I won't be on LJs until later tonight. Just taken delivery of 6 huge marquees and 4 smaller ones for our street party, so I'll be checking the contents of them and then I've got to jigsaw out a lifesize model of the Queen and a Horseguard, make a box, make a quick table, turn an old dining room carver chair into a gold throne, rout out two bay maries and affix some chrome legs to them and make a 6' x 8' double-sided display board.

Just another working day.


----------



## lysdexic

Andy,
What time shall we come over?


----------



## Brit

Anytime you like Scot and bring that gorgeous workbench.


----------



## need2boat

Andy,

Best of luck with the block party this weekend! Hopefully your getting some of the nicer weather we'll be having in the North East. I'm heading up to visit some family in RI and it should be in the high 70's and I can wait. . . I'll also be stopping by a tool auction in the area but that's pure luck. . .

JC, 
I've spent some time saw smithing and have tried the hot water trick which is non nonsense. I'm not saying it didn't work for some, but depending on how much spring is left in the saw some just bend easier then others.

I think you'd find anything written about it from Disston to Fred Hodgson book "Hand Saws" with talk about fixing bends with a hammer. I think Bob Smalser article on wkfinetools.com is about the best basic info you'll find. After that it's just practice.

A big part of success is what type of bend and where it is. If you've got a kink like it was slammed in a tool box lid it's really hard. If however it's a wave by the tooth line your in better shape.

Dude,
I hope Matt is giving you a cut for all the plugs. ;-) But he does have a lot of time into the process then I or most do. I'm also offer sharping and restoration services but not really looking to get into smithing other then at the tooth line. It's a very timely process and I'm more focused on restoration and sharpening. I've been really happy with the last few Resto-Saws I've done where I've replaced, toothed and sharpen back saws. really great to see a saw that for most buyers was junk or wall art for the shop back on the bench and with the new plate it's as good if not better then many of the new offerings on the market.

Joe


----------



## thedude50

Nice weather I am already sick of nice weather it is 90 here and lovely swimming weather. The kids are at their Aunts swimming in her new pool. I cant afford a pool now as the value of the house took another dip this past few months. I pray for the return of the Market. When I bought this house It was a great achievement to step up into the half million dollar home. Now the values have dropped out and it just dropped into the 290K range or about 1/2 of what we paid for this home. I am saddened by the state of the economy and the fact that everything went up in price except my home is a sad thing. Well lets get off the weather and home values and back on to the saw I have some stuff that the work-sharp has made. This polishes steel very well, I need to find it in quantity so i can clean saw plates with it, It works great but i need it in 6 inch sizes so i can use it on the buffer. Any of you guys know what this stuff is and where to get it it is kind of like a scotchbrite pad on steroids.


----------



## thedude50

Joe,Matt does write for our site so i want to disclose that and that is one reason i promote him. As I have stated before i only have people working on our site that i want to work with. I am sure you do good work too but the work Matt has done for me I pay full price for so no real breaks. I have seen the miracles he has done for me and I don't normally jump ship in mid stream so to speak that is not to say that i will never have you do work for or supply me with the things I am looking for when I figure out what I am looking to do and what I am looking for. I COULD SEND YOU A SAW JOE TO SEE IF I LIKE YOUR WORK. Maybe I can have two saw wrights in my phone book. .


----------



## thedude50

The reason I came to this thread today was a restoration preservation question. I have a real nice Disston d7 tote with a great plate and the tote has a sticker that surrounds the medallion. Now I want to clean the grime on the tote without destroying the sticker any Ideas on how to preserve this one it is a grand saw and I want it preserved as well as possible. Also you guys had some advise on how to restore the letters on the plate where the etching is viable but faded. I need to know this whole process as well. Links and Photos videos all kinds of info needed.


----------



## bandit571

to bring back an etch: Degrease the area and let dry. while it is drying, go and but a small bottle of Gun Blue from WalMart"s sporting goods deptment. When you get back to the plate, swab the area of the etch, using a cotton ball soaked in the Gun Blue. allow this to dry. Go and get a piece of flat board, and some sandpaper. Scrub the etch area with this sanding block. The gun Blue will stay in the grooves that make up the etch, while you sand away the rest back to bare metal. Sometimes, it will take a second try. but it does work.

Sticker: Apply some blue painter's tape to just the sticker. Clean up to, but don't touch the blue tape. when done, GENTLY remove the tape. SLOWLY, TAKE YOUR TIME! Try a few different angles whenpulling the tape off.


----------



## need2boat

Hey Dude,

No worries on the plugs for Matt, I was just kidding around with you. Matt is a friend and mentor and really does great work but there is more then enough of it out there to go around. If your getting what you need from him, I agree no point in changing and I'm not looking to take his work. I can offer quicker turn around and completed saws for sale.

To your question tote has a sticker. Depending on how bad it is. I tend to use lacquer thinner but some like the citrus cleaners. Either way it's a matter of cleaning it by hand and staying away from the sticker the best you can. Most often if they have made it this long they can take a little LT and make it ok.

I thought Matt had some info on his site about Bob write up as well. Everyone does it a little different but it's a fine line between over cleaning and leaving enough Etch to later darken.

Joe


----------



## carguy460

So I posted pics of my recently inherited planes over on the Handplanes of your dreams thread…now I'll awaken this thread with my 6 "new" saws, all used by my grandfather back in the 50's and 60's:









Lots of cleanup work to do now…I'm really excited about the little guy on the far left. Its a H. Disston and Son medallion…1865-1871 manufacture date. That saw is quite possibly the coolest thing I've ever held…

Now I've got something like 12 vintage saws…and not a single dovetail or tenon saw in the lot!


----------



## need2boat

Jason,

The pre Son"s" Disston is for sure cool. I'd love to see a closer picture of the handle. I picked up one for my collection a few weeks ago and once I get through the saws I'm sharping for others Its top of my list. The second one liike like a No 12 with the horns, broken and filed down. The plates looks filed down but they did make a popular ships model that was factory shaped to a point.

I also inherited a good collection of tools from my grandfather and great uncle and much the same all the saw were panels, no back saws other then a miter box. I have a feeling that's because he most likely put them aside once power tools entered his shop. He still used a fair bit of hand tools when I was growing up but when your working for a pay check you can't always use a hand tool when someone taps there feet waiting.


----------



## Bertha

I need to contract this disease.


----------



## carguy460

need2boat - I'll see what I can do about getting some close ups of that little guy. There is some etching on the plate, maybe stamping I'm not sure which, but I'm going to CAREFULLY try and remove the rust and make it pretty again. I don't think I'll remove the handle on this one, I'm scared I'll screw something up and ruin it.

My grandfather died when my Mom was 18, so I never met the guy, but she said that he was a carpenter and spent most of his time at jobsites. She said he only had a few power tools, like a router and tablesaw, but I guess almost all of his work was done by hand. I kinda wish I had my hands on that tablesaw of his…it would have been pre 1965, so I bet it was pretty sweet.

EDIT: Thanks for reminding me…I do have his old Millers Falls miter box and Disston miter saw as well…maybe I should get a picture of that too since I'm in show and tell mode.


----------



## need2boat

Hey Jason,

I agree. Messing with split nuts is something that's tricky even for the best of us. It takes a purpose made split nut driver, good downward force and a little luck.

For cleaning the plate I would stay away from the rust products and stick with the tried and true, Sandpaper and block of wood.

JFF


----------



## carguy460

Just out of curiosity, any reason why you say to avoid the rust removers???


----------



## need2boat

In some cases it can etch the metal and depending on your ecstatic taste, I think it looks bad.

Joe


----------



## carguy460

Some close ups of the Disston and SON saw:
Handle:








Medlallion (sorry, terrible picture):








Split Nuts…sounds painful to me…








12 PPI (or TPI? Can't remember which is which!)








And the nib…can't forget the nib!


----------



## terryR

*Jason*, that's a lovely saw! You are lucky to have so many with a family history!!!

*Joe*, I've been drooling over some of your handle repairs…nearly all are difficult to even see…they blend so seamlessly with the original tote!

Where do you find vintage beech? antique store? other saw handles? I think my repairs look so ugly because I'm using 'new' wood???


----------



## need2boat

*Jason*, 
I agree with Terry, really nice saws and triple so since they were in the family. I have a few saws from family members but the best one is a no 12 that was my grandfathers. it's one of the early mahogany handle ones and the gain is so much tighter then what we see today.. It needed a horn repair but other then that it was in really great shape. It's by far my go to saw for cross cut, I love knowing it built the house they lived in.

*Terry,*
I use old wooden plans, Mostly transition plans that are busted. I get them from mostly from tool resellers who buy box lots at auction and really have no use for them but if your a flea market going they pop up for way less I'm told.

Once good size bed will make a number of horns which is 90% of the repairs. As to blending them. I try a bunch of ways and nothing has shown it's self to be the clear winner. I either use water based dyes from Lockwood and lightly dye the entire handle or locally stain the area, then shellac and glaze over the area and seal with lacquer paint.

I've been working on a number of backsaws and channeling my inner Andy. Mostly I stick with the US makers but I picked up a few needy early UK split nut steel backed, backsaws to change it up a bit. I'll try and take some pictures tonight. One had 2 screws thru the cheek by a previous owner that required me to plug from both side, both horns were broken, and lastly it needed a new plate. A lot of work for sure but it's really nice looking saw and handle and makes for a great learn.

Joe


----------



## terryR

Thanks, Joe, that answer was so obvious I couldn't even see it…I have 2 trans Stanleys in the shop now! Plus, I just read Don's re-do of a trans that got a new cherry bed…but I didn't think to add 2+2…

Use new wood to re-build the old stanleys…re-saw the old beech into bits as needed…now I got it!

I think exposure to the sun is killing me brain this summer…


----------



## Dal300

these are a couple I picked up last month. Sorry I don't have before pictures, my phone is wonky and sometimes loses stuff.
The top one is a Warranted Superior, equivalent to a D-8 I think. Probably around 1920-1950. It cleaned up pretty good. The bottom is a Disston #12 shipsaw 1896-1917 (I think). It's 7PPI, set for rip and has been sharpened many times. The tip is only 1 -11/16". No nib on the end and the handle matches the original shape in the pictures. 









A picture of the medallion on the Disston #12









I'll never use Evaporust or Naval Jelly again.

The WS handle close up.









The Disston is much thinner steel than the other Disston's I've had and has a very nice tone when thumped. It was covered with a lot of rust when I got it, but I could make out the etching. I used evaporust on this saw and the etching got taken off too. It seems to be badly pitted and may not be usable so I'll probably put it on ebay. I'm sure someone can use the original handle and nuts.


----------



## need2boat

The Warranted Superior saw may have been a secondary Disston line for a hardware store. I think by the mid 1900 all Warranted Superior saws were Disston made.

Joe


----------



## affyx

Dallas, I'm glad you wrote that about Evapo-Rust - I just bought a quart to use on the D-100 i picked up yesterday. Anyone know if electrolysis hurts the etching?


----------



## bandit571

On it's way to a new home:









First of seven of my re-habbed saws has been sold.


----------



## affyx

bandit, do you have an ebay store?

here's my newest fam member, D-100 6 TPI…


----------



## Dal300

JC, 
I mostly use electrolysis (electrolytic) cleaning. I've had very good luck with it.

don't discount what Evaporust can do for you, My #12 may have been beyond redemption and I didn't use electrolysis on it. I just thought I'd try the other stuff.


----------



## carguy460

JC - I've shocked a D-8 with good results on the etch. I didn't even know there was an etch there when I started (hard to photograph with a cell phone though!):
















I've heard about guys on this thread using gun blueing to darken the etch, but I'm leery to try it with all the pitting around the etch.


----------



## need2boat

These are a few of the handles in the works right now. These two I bought because I really haven't worked a lot with the London style handle or any of the UK made saws.



















The detail and care in making these is amazing. My only issue is both of these saws are made for someone with Large size hands. Mine run more on the Med size and I fine fit better with 10" back saws as well as the early Peace and Richardson which both seem to be made for smaller hands.










Lastly a customer sent me this to retooth and he wants to handle the sharping. Looks like it will be a fun saw. He wanted a smaller rip and 24" 5-1/2 ppi it should fit the bill.










Joe


----------



## lysdexic

Joe,
Did you do the horn repairs?


----------



## need2boat

Yes it would seem I'm a magnet for saws with broken horns and handles. ;-) It's something I'm trying to work on but I guess on the upside I'm getting better at the repairs. I think they give the saw a little character and if the repaired is done right they have no effect on the use.

The flat bottom "London" style handle was a little more involved as I needed to drill and make plugs due to screws the previous owner used in a repair. I still need to do a little smithing on the back and will most likely change out the plate. It's a work in progress kind of thing. 

Joe


----------



## terryR

*Dallas*, I think the above saw labelled as a WS ia a Disston no7…I'm finishing a new tote for mine now and know every curve of that handle by heart…maybe someone slapped a WS medallion on her? My plate is thinner, too, taper ground…and has a sweet tone when thumped.

my friend, take off that WS medallion and see if it's shiny and clean on the backside…

forget about eBay…I'll pay ya for that saw!


----------



## terryR

Here is a shot of my beech tote for the Disston No7…still being finished with shellac…dead ringer for the above tote, no???


----------



## racerglen

Beauty !
and yes ..

;-)


----------



## Brit

You've got some skills Terry, that's fantastic.


----------



## need2boat

Terry,

Looks sweet. I should have your plates back to you this week.

JFF


----------



## Bertha

I love the CD handle holding technique. Brilliant! That's a really smart looking tote.


----------



## need2boat

PS I like the use of the CD.

Joe


----------



## Dal300

Terry, yeah the medalliom and the other fittings don't seem to fit quite right in the marks, but I don't have enough experience to know the difference.

PM me. I need a decent Disston or SOB user back saw with a brass back? Is this doable? Doesn't have to be pretty, just very usable. I'm not into wall hangers, everything I have has to pull it's own weight, LOL.


----------



## bandit571

A No.7 that is still floating around









Might even have been a"76" type. Still on ebay ( mine) and no bids. A look at the handle's "extra numbers"









blade is 26" long, but the handle makes a very LONG saw. A good 1-1/2 longer than my other 26" saws. Someone had stamped the blade near the top of the handle with a "10", and did so hard, that the 10 shows through on the other side. The "10" also appears by the medallion. Saw IS an 8 point, with a skew back. Number along the top of the handle (on BOTH SIDES) is 25056, maybe an early "Zip code" saw??


----------



## need2boat

bandit.

the stamp could be a pat number. Normally they aren't so big but it depends on the manufacture.

Joe


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## terryR

Thanks for kind words, everyone, but you know I'm still in my apprenticeship for being a saw handle maker…only 1.5 years to go…

Dallas, if the hardware doesn't fit well, they have probably been switched at some point…If the holes in the saw plate match that handle exactly (meaning, no extra holes in the plate), I'm pretty sure you have a Disston no7.

A keeper! Just keep looking for a replacement Disston medallion, get someone to sharpen the teeth, and be the proud owner of a sweet saw! 

Look on eBay for some very nice, clean users…Joe has them,,,so does Bandit…maybe Andy?...and others? Believe it or not….....I just cancelled my eBay account last week, so cannot copy and paste links for ya…anyone have a store they want to plug?


----------



## need2boat

I can tell you saw handle and plate don't mix and match often even when it's the same year and model. Also redrilling spring steel is not easy.

A good bit for hardened metal will set you back 40.00. BTDT

Joe


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## bandit571

For drilling the new holes in those two Sycamore handled saws ( That I'm keeping) I used a "fancy" drill bit to start the holes. A 5/16" masonary bit one uses with Tapcons on concrete jobs. They even send a bit along with a box of Tapcons! I just chucked it into my drill press and went kind of slow. One bit per saw blade, seems to work. I just happen to have a few of them laying around, seems i kept everyone I have used over the years.

End of the work day: (" Hey, this bit is dull, need another one." " Get another one out of the Tool Trailer". "OK")


----------



## donwilwol

A quick question about looking for flea market saws. I passed many many saws over the week end.

I have been looking for a couple of disston with the thumb hole, and did come accross 2, but they were outside and way beyond return. I also reluctantly passed on a sheffield with a brass back for $35. It was in pretty rough shape, and since every other tool this tool guy had was slightly over priced, I figured this was as well.

Other than looking for a saw type I may need, is there a way to tell if a saw is worth more than the typical $8 - $20 for shop use? Are there some I should look for just to collect?


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## dbray45

I look at all of them to see if I can use it after cleaning up. First I make sure there are no bends and kinks then how much rust and how good is the tote. I have to admit, I am getting picky unless it is an unusual tool.


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## need2boat

Good question Don and I'd like to know the answer as well. ;-) I guess it somewhat depends on what your looking to get out of it. resale, collect, or user.

If you looking for resale. I find most people like the big names, with etches and good handles. I however like the odd stuff, hardware store brands and early American saws. Broken handles don't bother me as I'm sure you've seen however I can tell you resales of them due to the amount of time they take is poor.

I start by looking at the plate as well, then the handle and maker. What I pay depends on if it's for resale or me. I like saws and most likely pay a little more then others if I like it. I just hope in the end it all washes out with the ones I resell vrs keep.

Not sure if that helps?

Joe


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## bandit571

If you find a handle that is beyond hope, but the plate is still good, make a new tote.









a before and after









I even kept the old handle as a "parts" saw. Use part of it to repair a Thumbhole D-8









That was missing a chunk









a little bit of finish to blend it all









and resell for $40 ( I paid $2), The backsaw? oh yeah,









Black Walnut, a 10' long blade, re-sharpened "Rip" and away to the shop it goes. Old saw, paid $1.21, counting tax.


----------



## ShaneA

Well…I have been looking to tool up on the hand tools. Figured I wpuld be buying newer/new saws first. Scott had sold me veritas DT saw, and it seems nice. Had my eye on the veritas carcass saw set. Craftsmanstudio.com had them listed for a while for about $120 w/free shipping. Looked yesterday, and they had the set listed for $69.50, so of course I jumped on it. Not sure if it was in error or a good sale, but I thought I would pass on the info. I know you guys are mostly vintage, but I will throw it out there.


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## thedude50

Don, I suggest when buying use Matt Ciancis directions. They are on my site on the main page print it out and take the list with you when you shop. This is for panel saws but is easy to translate to back saws same rules apply in most things.


----------



## mochoa

Wow nice score shane!


----------



## terryR

Random Friday Shot (idea stolen directly from the plane forum)…










Today I'm giving this old Disston tote ANOTHER horn replacement…since I failed at the first attempt very badly. At first, I assumed the tote was formed from beech, so attached a beech horn…then applied BLO…yuck! The mis-match of wood types became painfully obvious.

Off with the beech! On with the Liberon wood bleach to ID this type of wood. Unfortunately, the bleach gave very poor results this time compared to the magic I've seen recently…as you can see the discolorations that remain in the original wood.

Oh well…sandpaper always works…after a day of hand-sanding I'm convinced this is tote is Apple! The bleach took off a bit of the pretty color, but the grain is definitely apple. So…find a bit to match…

I know it appears as though the grain direction in my new horn is a bit off…but the original wood has a twist at the joint…and I'm hoping to follow it with my grain…we'll see tomorrow???


----------



## SCOTSMAN

Nice collection of saws .It makes my mouth water looking and desiring them.LOL Alistair


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## Brit

Definitely looks like apple to me Terry.


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## need2boat

Terry,

Looks good to me! I think all of backsaw totes made by disston after the 1900 were Apple. Except for the really early double eagle and brass back all I've come across were apple.

JFF


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## thedude50

I have been reading my new book on saws by disston from 1907 and it talks about apple is the wood of choice but they used other woods including Walnut Beach but Apple is the "Favorite". This book is a look at what Henry Disston brought to quality made in America and how that quality would have kept Disston as the top Manufacturer of Saws in the world. The truth is Disston went down when Quality was put off for fat profits of crappy saws. I am researching the demise Of Disston and am trying to find out what happened to them and who owns the name now.


----------



## Sylvain

I found this link
See at the bottom of the page :

saw handles templates and 
saw tooth stuff

http://www.galoototron.com/plans-and-guides/


----------



## donwilwol

for the pure collector of shiny things.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-24-DISSTON-D-12-HAND-SAW-11-TEETH-PER-INCH-EXCELLENT-CONDITION-/330740717114?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4d01aed63a#ht_500wt_1416


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## RGtools

So Shiny, must resist.


----------



## need2boat

That's the end of the "golden" years for Disston. The shellac lacquer handles aren't the nicest they made but the steel was really good.

I had some time to work on a saw for me over the last week. It's an early 18" No 7. I'd love to know what they used for the glue back then. Your still find a good deal of them have parts of the label. This one however better then normal I really didn't do much other then clean and sharpen the plate and wax and shine the handle.





































JFF


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## terryR

^that's a beautiful saw, Joe. I wish there were a way we could click on photos in this thread and see the full-sized image…love that old tool box you use for a backdrop!

Maybe now is a good time to show this guy:










This is an old Disston-Keystone saw I restored a few months ago, you can read the blog here, and just sent to Joe a couple of weeks ago for freshly sharp teeth.

Oh my goodness, I got cut just trying to re-attach the tote to the saw plate…next time I'll definitely send the totes to ya, Joe. Once the tool was whole again, I couldn't stop ripping all the cut offs under my table…this guy eats wood fast! What a nice addition to the shop…not just a wall-hanger anymore.

I'm still finishing that apple tote with the horn repair that happens to fit a backsaw Joe also just sharpened for me…stay tuned…

And BTW…very professional job packaging those saw plates, Joe. From the great communication to the awesome job on the sharpening to the packaging…I have to admit dealing with you was a first class experience in every respect. You can be assured of my business in the future…until I finish fencing 10 acres for SWMBO's goats…then I intend to learn the skill, too! Get ready for tons of questions…


----------



## need2boat

Terry,

Thanks for the kind words and I'm glad to hear you got the handles on and it's good to go. Look forward to seeing the creations made from it!

Joe


----------



## lysdexic

Do any of you saw gurus have experience correcting a saw that pulls one way or the other. It seems that my Bad Axe 14" X-cut pulls to the right. I have tried to assign blame to the operator and his inexperienced hands but over time I am convinced that it is inherent to the saw.

I can post picks if it helps.

I have heard that taking a swipe or two with a honing stone on the side to which it pulls will correct this. I figure that this will effectively decrease the amount of set on that side.


----------



## ksSlim

You are correct in both presumptions. The user should "tune" a freshly sharpened saw for their own use.
Perhaps one should look at the honing as "de-burring" of the teeth. Most times, sharpeners don't buff or de-burr teeth on a saw. Further, they probably don't "file" a saw, if they did, they could see the burr on the point of the teeth.


----------



## dbray45

KS - is correct but if the set is not the same on both sides, the saw will not cut straight as well.


----------



## Sylvain

Paul Sellers recommend reducing the set (if necessary - on one side in the above case) by tapping with a hammer.
see :
http://paulsellers.com/2012/02/of-saws-i-reflect-on/

Another method here :
http://www.popularwoodworking.com/article/get-a-consistent-set-on-your-saw-with-paper


----------



## Brit

Sylvain - I saw that Mike Wenzloff clip some time ago and thought it was a good idea. The problem is though, you have to have a machinist's vise with smooth jaws that are ideally more than 4" wide and those babies are expensive. If I ever see one at a car boot sale I'm going to grab it, but I'm not going to shell out for a new one.

I've seen Paul Sellers reduce the set with a hammer and he makes it look easy. In practice though, you have to have the right weight of hammer, use the right amount of force and be able to reproduce that amount of force consistently. I would do it on a hand saw, but I wouldn't use that technique on any backsaw that I cared about, especially those with thin plates.

My advice to Scot is to lay the saw on a piece of glass or granite with the back hanging off the edge and take a light even swipe with a medium oil stone or a diamond stone from the heel to the toe. Try the saw a few times after each swipe and be careful not to overdo it.

Just my opinion.


----------



## need2boat

Lysdexic,

I think traditionally people use a files to reduce set but I tend to use DMT (green extra fine) 1200 grit dimond stone to de-burr and find it works well for adjusting small amounts of set. That said I wouldn't run out and get one just to do this.

Use single cut 8 or 10"" bastard file, I'm guessing you might have one for sharpening you card scrapers.. . If so lay saw plate flat on your work bench. The back and handle hang off the edge so the plate is FLAT to the bench. Then with no extra pressure lay the file over the teeth and side it down the tooth line, heal to toe on the side it's pulling to. Then test cut, you may need to do this twice depending how light handed you are.

Joe


----------



## Brit

Joe, did you see I sent you a reply regarding your Biggin saw?


----------



## AnthonyReed

Sorry to hear that Scott. Please keep us posted, i am curious as to the results.

car boot -


----------



## need2boat

Andy, I did get the info, thanks so much.. I was just writing you back.

Joe


----------



## RGtools

Am I the only one who is surprised that this is a problem being experienced with a BAD AXE saw?

I am in the hammer camp myself. I use a hard plastic or nylon hammer with a slightly belled face on a good flat anvil, this takes a lot of the guess work out.


----------



## Brit

I know I've been away from saws for a while, but I don't see how the hammer technique is going to help Scott. If you put the saw plate on an anvil and hit the teeth with a hammer/mallet, surely you are going to reduce the set on both sides. Scott's problem is that the saw is pulling to one side. How do you hit the teeth so that you only reduce the set on one side? You can't right?


----------



## need2boat

This is the first I've read about someone having issue with one of his saws so considering the numbers he sell and they're all set by hand I think it's not so bad.

Set can really be effected by the user so it could be the combo of both the user and the saw. I'm sure if it was sent back he's do the work for free.

Most saws I find need little set to run true so going to a hammer to set or fix over-set seems extreme. When dealing with old saws I'm shaping and sharpening. I tend to joint them down kind of low to get out as much old set as possible. As time goes on I find shaping new teeth is often faster them reshaping old teeth.

JFF


----------



## Sylvain

Brit
I didn't experiment the Wenzloff method myself until now.
I am not sure an expensive vise is needed.
I would try it with the small vise which came with my drill press. But I would have to find two pieces of flat metal for the lining of the jaws (two pieces of cheap saw plate?)

edit : Wenzloff made the same comment on the blog
Mike Wenzloff responds:

As regards jaws in mechanics vises. Yes, a set of jaws in a mechanics vise will have a texture for gripping. However, smooth jaws can easily be made with mild steel. If that is too much work, smooth jaw liners are often available. And if that is too much work or too much of an expense (they are cheap), then cut up a couple hand saws in poor shape and line the jaws with a couple layers on each side. Some mechanics vises also have reversible jaws with one side smooth, so take a look at the vise before doing anything.

Some drill press vises can be put to the same service. And again, cutting up a couple old hand saws for use as liners works fine as long as they are cut from back under and around the handle area-the plate is taper ground on better saws. In fact, if one looks carefully in the video, you can see some thin liners sticking above the jaws. That is simply 0.042″ saw steel so the cap screw recesses are covered over.

A 6″ Kurt vise like I use isn't necessary-but they are nice. The main attribute of the vise is that the jaws need to close parallel. Gotta remember, my grandfather used a mechanics vise. It can be done, eh?


----------



## Brit

Good thinking Sylvain. Where there's a will, there's a way.


----------



## RGtools

Usually the hammer reduces the set to the point you can get it even on both sides…if you are just reducing on one side the stone is the better way to go. You can also try sharpening the saw from the side that it is pulling towards (if it's a rip saw).

There's more than a few ways to get this done. It just depends on how much work you think you need.


----------



## donwilwol

How old is the saw? If its fairly new I'd think they would fix it Scott.


----------



## lysdexic

RG - I am surprised too. I really want to drink the cool-aid and rave about Bad Axe but I cant.

Don - this is the saw that I ordered for my birthday in 7/2011 and recieved in 2/2012. The handle is just frggin awesome. Ive not used it that much but MAN I cant seem to cut a straight line with it. I assume it is me but I am starting to wonder.

This is the saw…..........










and this is a sample of my practice cuts. This is me trying not to steer but I know I am - toward the line!. If I am just a horrible sawyer then you'd think I'd err to the left as well. Never happens. Always pulls to the right.










Thank you all for your help. I will give a a swipe or 2 with a translucent arkansas stone this weekend and report back.


----------



## Brit

If you're right-handed Scott, try this before you stone it.


Take a piece of wood about 1/2" - 5/8" thick. Mark a series of lines like you did in the photo above, then clamp it in your vise so that the top surface is horizontal. Check it with a level so that you can rule this out as an influencing factor.
Take up a comfortable stance with the saw teeth resting on the wood about two inches from the toe. Hold the weight of the saw so that the weight is not pushing down into the wood and take two or three light, short strokes just to establish a kerf across the top edge. Your arm should form a straight line with the saw. Now you've started, don't move your feet.
Now freeze, relax your grip on the handle and without changing the positiion of your hand or the saw, conciously tuck your elbow into your body. It will feel weird at first, but concentrate on keeping your elbow in.
Now continue sawing using full-length strokes, whilst watching your line just ahead of the cut, until you are at full depth. Practice this a few times and see if it makes a difference.

I had the same problem when I first started except I'm left-handed so my cuts strayed to the left of my line. Pulling my elbow into my body resolved the problem for me and now I don't have to think about it. Setting a mirror up so that you can see a reflection of your upper body can really help you to see what is happening.

Once you are sawing vertically to full depth, make a series of practice cuts until you develop the muscle memory to do it every time.


----------



## RGtools

In addition to what Andy said. Tilting your head a bit so that your right eye is over the saw plate will help. You will still be able to see the line and you will see vertical much better. That helps. Usually sawing errors are quite consistent. Correcting sawing technique is a bit like sighting in a rifle that way. Of course you have to figure out if it's you or the saw (or gun).

I would also take a look at the cuts with a straightedge, if the cuts are straight but off line, the issue is most likely you. If the cuts have a curve to them, it can still be you…but the saw is the more likely to be the culprit.


----------



## need2boat

To the sighting down a gun comment from RG. I never really thought about it but I wonder if like shooting you should check for cross eye dominance? it's the kiss of death in bird shooting but easy enough to test for and overcome with a saw.

Someone may have already asked this, but have you had a friend try the saw and see if they have different results or have you tried another back saw and had repeated results?

Joe


----------



## lysdexic

Thanks for all the suggestions fellas. I maintain my suspicion that it is operator error. I will certainly give the above suggestions a try.

I was considering sending the saw to Al for a consultation but that does not seem to be an option currently.


----------



## need2boat

Scott, 
If you get to a point where your pulling your hair out I'd be happy to send you a back saw to try. I have a few resto saws as I call them, older saws with new plates you can see if the results are any different.

Joe


----------



## lysdexic

Joe, thank you for the kind offer. But don't you worry, I am not about to pull any of my remaining hairs.


----------



## RGtools

I am sure you could find many a person on this site who would be willing to test your saw for you (myself included).

I too miss my pal Al.


----------



## mochoa

Where has Al been? He couldnt have gotten banned because he was able to post a message the other day.


----------



## lysdexic

Lets see if the advice here on LJ's is worth a crap….....

It is flag day by the way!










Ok - right eye dominant, elbow in, easy grip



















Here is looking at you guys. Oh, look he is a Schwarz fanboy!


----------



## Brit

Now that's what I'm talking about.


----------



## DaddyZ

Now That's Impressive !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## RGtools

Thanks for that laugh. Glad to hear you sighted in that gun.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Sweeeeet….. Congrats, Scott.


----------



## lysdexic

I keep waiting for Al to chime in with an irreverent, off-axis, comedic jab…........


----------



## AnthonyReed

Outstanding! That was awesome to see play out…. Well done Scott.

No one answers the Al question…. He is at least of good health right?


----------



## bandit571

Out Rust hunting again. Found a small saw for $2.14. Blade length is 10", depth of cut….1-3/8"~. Pictures?









A look at the handle:









Can't feel any set to the teeth, might be a little there. Haven't found any maker's marks, just an owner's mark (HUWY) Ferrel is steel. Looks like a LONG soak in in store for this one.


----------



## thedude50

wow I am glad it was a form error. I am lucky i guess grandpa made me learn to saw when i was just a kid. it is like riding a bike the proper way to hold your self is a big key.. nice call Brit I am happy for you sCOTT btw how is the workbench coming? I have the two tops glued up and one is done planing I am very happy it is turning out so well. it not much like regular woodworking it reminds me of the barn raising i did a few years back. big wood big mortises big tenons and a lot of fun. Maybe Al is deep into his bench or his work has gotten the most of his time I would hate to see him not come back.


----------



## donwilwol

you can see from Scott's last picture how he cut his fingernail on his fingers and not his thumb. That was just enough to pull it back in line.

Great shot's Scott.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Al's fine, will be back but not real soon, it appears. Reality has taken a front seat, apparently, and LJs is on hiatus. He hates it, but something had to give for awhile.


----------



## donwilwol

thanks Smitty, I was just about to drop him a PM. Glad to here he is ok.


----------



## mochoa

Good show Scott, nice kerfs. So you didnt need to stone the side at all?


----------



## need2boat

At some point, someone, I think it was the other Joe, pointed out that most often when we practice cutting we cut at 90 but really we tend to cut at angles for DT and find out rather quickly it's much harder to cut at that 7 to 10 degree angle. So with that in mind when practicing it good to mix in some angle cuts using your DT gauge to mark lines.

Joe


----------



## lysdexic

Mauricio,
No, the saw did not get stoned.


----------



## racerglen

And a dang good thing too..
Can you imagine the cuts if it was ?

;-)


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Saw in the picture is an EC Jennings, NY. 19" blade.










Very fine tooth count, not jointed, but handle in good shape… Anyone have experience or opinion on EC Jennings saws?


----------



## Brit

Never seen any this side of the pond Smitty.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Rats.

I found a few references that dates it somewhere between 1880 - 1920, plus or minus. That's as long as they were making saws. It's in the queue for some attention later. Not sharp enough to be useful, so it's "Static Display" for this cat.


----------



## SamuelP

I like the roll you have for your bits Smitty.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Thanks, Sam! It's another auction buy from the weekend. All the bits are sharp, and the set includes 1/8" through 1" sizes, plus two expansion bits. A great find for my neck of the woods.


----------



## SamuelP

It looks like it is made from an old set of overalls.


----------



## need2boat

Are you sure it's not C. E. Jennings & co?

JFF


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

I'm sure it's not a EC. My typo, my bad. Sorry for all that went off on a wild goose chase searching for E.C.


----------



## Brit

I wish I'd seen this earlier Smitty. I just spent a couple of hours searching for EC.

Only joking, I didn't really.


----------



## donwilwol

I've a CE jennings as well









The blade has a ruler along the edge and the handle acts as a square. I use it all the time, (the saw part not the ruler/square part). Its my go to cross cut.


----------



## lysdexic

Way cool saw Don. I haven't seen such before.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Cool, Don!


----------



## Dcase

Question for you guys… I picked up a really old saw this past weekend and was just looking for some info on it… Its got a maker name stamped into the steel and it looks like it says Wilksons Co?

Also, there is a nib on the front of the saw as well as another slit in the top an inch or so from the nib… I have never seen a slit in the plate there before not sure if it was made that way or if someone put it there…

Anyone know of this make or whats up with the slit by the nib?


----------



## lysdexic

Dan, I know what it is…..

Its awesome.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

http://www.davistownmuseum.org/bioWilkinson.html

Maybe?


----------



## Dcase

Smitty, thanks for the link. I would guess that my saw was made or stamped by them. Now I just have to figure out what that cut is by the nib.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Cool looking saw, for sure. I do love any handle with the bird's mouth cut in it especially. Great find.


----------



## donwilwol

cool saw Dan. I wonder if the cut is accidental many years ago. Or I guess it could just be a defining embellishment to distinguish the brand.


----------



## Dcase

Don, I first thought that but if you look at it close it looks like its cut at the same angle as the nib on the front and to me it just looks to natural to have been a break or a user made thing. I don't know..

I picked the saw up at the flea market for 5 dollars. I don't buy a lot of saws but I was really interested in this one because of the handle, stamp and double nib thing… I was not looking to try a full restore on it or anything, I just got the rust off and then cleaned up the handle and put a coat of BLO on it.


----------



## donwilwol

If nothing else, I'd say its been sharpened a time or 2. I think you did wise by grabbing it.


----------



## need2boat

Hey Dan,

I'd say that was a replacement handle on the saw as it's not a really great fit at the top and considering it's age whoever made it would have put more care into it. I wouldn't read to much into cut in the plate. It may have been someone was thinking of cutting down the saw as it's been sharpened down to a ship point or a way to smooth out a chip so it doesn't catch on things.

I'd guess it was an early brit saw. . . maybe pull the handle and see if you find a second set of holes.

JFF


----------



## Dcase

JFF- You are right on about the handle. I did remove the handle when I was cleaning it and I did see that there were 3 extra holes under there. I figured myself it was probably a replacement handle.

Its not a saw I ever plan to sharpen and tune. The plate has a bend in it down at the front so its doubtful it can be restored to be a good user again… I do like the design of the replacement handle. I will just have this one hanging on the wall.


----------



## need2boat

Yea the early Brit designs are very nice, The only part I don't like is how they tapered the horns. they don't tend to fit my hand right and I rather like the later US style used by Richardson and Peace.

Joe


----------



## thedude50

Joe did you get my pm please call me today


----------



## Brit

Well for some reason I woke up early today, made a coffee and started looking at LJs. I can't remember why now, but at some point I was trying to find the place in this thread where Sott (Lysdexic) posted the pictures of his W. Tyzack, Sons & Turner 14" backsaw. I eventually found it but only by scanning through the thread page after page until I saw the photos. I was having so much fun reading all the great information that people have contributed since Don kicked this thread off that I kept on reading until I got to the end of the thread.

D'you know what? This thread is a GREAT resource. So many saw-related subjects are covered here. There is much to be gained from collecting the opinions and experiences of individuals that share a common interest. I believe it is referred to as 'the wisdom of crowds'.


----------



## Brit

Well for some reason I woke up early today, made a coffee and started looking at LJs. I can't remember why now, but at some point I was trying to find the place in this thread where Sott (Lysdexic) posted the pictures of his W. Tyzack, Sons & Turner 14" backsaw. I eventually found it but only by scanning through the thread page after page until I saw the photos. I was having so much fun reading all the great information that people have contributed since Don kicked this thread off that I kept on reading until I got to the end of the thread.

D'you know what? This thread is a GREAT resource. So many saw-related subjects are covered here. There is much to be gained from collecting the opinions and experiences of individuals that share a common interest. I believe it is referred to as 'the wisdom of crowds'.


----------



## Brit

Well for some reason I woke up early today, made a coffee and started looking at LJs. I can't remember why now, but at some point I was trying to find the place in this thread where Sott (Lysdexic) posted the pictures of his W. Tyzack, Sons & Turner 14" backsaw. I eventually found it but only by scanning through the thread page after page until I saw the photos. I was having so much fun reading all the great information that people have contributed since Don kicked this thread off that I kept on reading until I got to the end of the thread.

D'you know what? This thread is a GREAT resource. So many saw-related subjects are covered here. There is much to be gained from collecting the opinions and experiences of individuals that share a common interest. I believe it is referred to as 'the wisdom of crowds'.

Carry on chaps!


----------



## thedude50

Andy whats with the triple post


----------



## bandit571

A new feature on the Back Porch Bench…









A "REAL" saw vise….









$.85 at a church garage sale, no less. A little dovetail saw in the jaws, for a test drive…


----------



## Brit

I've no idea Lance. It was news to me. I can't remove it now.


----------



## Fishinbo

Interesting pieces for a restoration project! Respect for you and these nice little tools.


----------



## lysdexic

Leave it to Andy to try and "pad" his post count.


----------



## Brit

You know Scott it's funny because I've often seen people complain of double posts but I'd never experienced it myself and always wondered how it happened. Now I've had a triple post and I'm none the wiser. Anyhow it is worth reiterating because collectively we rock.

Sorry for mispelling your name three times )


----------



## Brit

I've seen it all now.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FitzWilliam-steel-backed-15-tennon-saw-/150852086116?pt=UK_Collectable_ToolsHasdware_RL&hash=item231f7c2964

What really made me laugh was that there is no mention of the fact that a hand saw handle has been put on a backsaw. He says "a little rust and some pitting, but would clean up well". Yeah right.


----------



## rilanda

Two of my saw collection I am sorry but I never kept a photographic record of their condition before restoration. They both started as unloved rusting wrecks probably heading for the scrapyard in the sky. The Bowden which is made by Tyzac was an absolute wreck but I obtained it for a very small price I think 50p, I did not know what it was and the nuts to the handle are as I bought it but after a lot of cleaning up. The Sorby is very old probably late 19th century, it to was in a shocking condition and I paid very little for this. A previous owner of the Sorby (probably the craftsman that bought it new God bless him) has used a rather heavy stamp on it that does distract from its appearance. Both saws required the complete sharpening procedure and both are sharpened for dovetail work (rip tooth). I use them regularly but my preference is the Sorby.


----------



## Brit

Very nice Bill. I really have to get out to some car boot sales. I'm guessing it was a few years ago now that you got it for 50p, but even so I bet if you can find some decent saws, they'd be a lot cheaper than ebay. How do you sharpen your dovetail saws? What TPI, rake, any fleam?


----------



## need2boat

Good to see some activity on the thread. Leave it to any to get the ball rolling.

I was in NH just before the 4th and met up with a local tool collector that had an impressive collection of just about everything under the sun. This included saws. I had a good full day looking and buying some for myself and also resale.

The back of my VW vanagon with my new additions. 









This one was out of my price range. 


















One for my peace collection although it's Right hand drive ONLY!


----------



## lysdexic

Holy cow. I get the feeling I need another backsaw.


----------



## racerglen

Wow ! that's some haul..

VW able to handle the weight ? ;-)


----------



## rilanda

Two more of my collection of saws, both of these were part of a inheritance from a friend, there condition is exactly as you see them. The first saw is a brass backed dovetail saw made by Taylor Brothers of Sheffield all this saw required was sharpening and setting, I purposely chose not to clean it so as to retain some of the patina. The second saw is from the same maker and is a steel backed tenon and is sharpened as a general purpose cross cut saw, once again I chose not to clean it up for the same reason as the dovetail saw. I know where the saws were purchased which was a Nottingham company called Carrs, these were on Parliament Street, they were bought in 1928.


----------



## Brit

Well I never knew Harvey Peace handles were for righties. What about the other 13% of the world's population? I'd have to take a rasp to that I think.


----------



## need2boat

The VeeDub handles it all! I've got the later water boxer model, it's an 87. I converted the engine to a subie about 5 years ago and it's been smooth sailing ever since. Not something I'd call low maintenance but the vw camper vans are really in a class by themselves. It's a shame they never took like they did in the rest of the word.

JFF


----------



## need2boat

Andy they weren't all for Right handlers just that model. They made both a backsaw and hand saw. Think it was Model No 46. You see more of the hand saws then the backs.

Peace couldn't compete with the big names on price so they had to offer better quality and uniques styles. The pictures aren't great but you can see how much work went into shaping the handle plus cutting the plate to let-in the handle.

JFF


----------



## Brit

Taylor Brothers made some nice saws Bill. I see they worked out of the Adelaide works in Sheffield. Talking of Sheffield, have you ever visited the Ken Hawley collection the Kelham Island museum. I haven't managed to get there yet, but I will one day. You're a lot closer than I am Bill.


----------



## need2boat

Andy I picked up what I'm guessing is 1920 era British saw but the etch is gone. Any chance you've see the saw medallion before.



















Joe


----------



## Brit

There were saws with the 'Accute' trade mark, made by Pearson F. G. & Co., Hope Works, but I don't know if the 'A' stands for accute or not.

What makes you think it is English Joe?


----------



## racerglen

Sheffield ?


----------



## Brit

Must engage brain before opening mouth.
Must engage brain before opening mouth.
Must engage brain before opening mouth.
Must engage brain before opening mouth.
Must engage brain before opening mouth.
Must engage brain before opening mouth.
Must engage brain before opening mouth.
Must engage brain before opening mouth.
Must engage brain before opening mouth.
Must engage brain before opening mouth.
Must engage brain before opening mouth.
etc.


----------



## need2boat

Andy,

Its says "Sheffield" which I was talking to be English.

JFF


----------



## Brit

Mind you there is a Sheffield in Massachusetts. Maybe I only look 99% stupid now.


----------



## Brit

Joe - I should have had the courage of my convictions. Sheffield Saw Works was actually a second line of Atkins. Check this out:

http://www.forums.woodnet.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Number=5640078

I REST MY CASE!!!


----------



## DaddyZ

Brit - YOU THE MAN !!!!


----------



## Brit

Everything is not always as it seems DaddyZ. )


----------



## racerglen

Andy, I actualy bought one of those "Columbian Waranted" saws at a grage sale put on by a retired RCMP sargent a few years ago.
He broke out laughing when I pointed out what it said (I'd known him since he first came out of training)

The medalion's bolt snapped when I tried to get it off..I gues there wasn't enough white powder in the aloy ?
;-0


----------



## need2boat

Very tricky.

That seems like something Disston would do to steal some UK sales.

JFF


----------



## Bertha

OMG JFF, that saw is the cat's pajamas. Gorgeous.


----------



## Dcase

I spent the past couple evenings making my first Saw Bench. I made the bench using some old reclaimed oak and Silver Maple. I glued and screwed the legs on and did the same with the bottom supports. I finished it with a couple coats of Amber Shellac. I think I will get a lot of use out of this… Its very solid.


----------



## stonedlion

That's a sharp looking saw bench Dan.


----------



## Brit

Very nice Dan and you're right, it will last you for years.


----------



## thedude50

are you making two of these dan I am curious how you use one to rip ?


----------



## rilanda

A visit I made to a saw manufacturers back in the 1950's














































Andy I have not visited the Ken Hawley Collection but I did visit the company shown in these photos back in the late 1950's they were known then as Drabble & Sandersons, thy were in Sheffield. When these photographs were taken a few years after my visit they were then known as Sanderson & Newbold Bros. What about that saw vice, that is some monster. When I visited the works my main interest at that time was circular saws and I remember seeing two saws in the tensioning department that were 13 feet in Diameter (3.9mts) that were being shipped to China. I bought a set of saw tensioning hammers which I learned to use at work, never can remember what happened to them but I no longer have them. Sad to say business like these dont exist any more, those men in that company were so skilled at what they did


----------



## thedude50

it makes you wonder who makes the saw blades like these today are they all Chinese too. if America wants to survive we must return to domestic manufacturing. we must devalue the dollar we must lower wages and restore prices to lower levels. so a honest man working an honest job can make a descent living and get America off the dole this is also true for great Brittan. If we don't do something fast the world economy will collapse and Anarchy will be the law of the land. We could actually plummet into modern version of the dark ages


----------



## Brit

Drabble and Sanderson made some nice saws. The totes are comfortable too. I have one of their tenon saws that I restored that is currently awaiting sharpening.

Before restoration:









After restoration:



























You can read more about D&S and the Sheffield Flood on my blog here.

I agree, that is a great saw vise.


----------



## RGtools

SO shiny.


----------



## Brit

It is a nice saw Ryan. Can't wait to sharpen it. It actually stopped raining today, so I went outside to sharpen the first of my crosscut backsaws. Got halfway through shaping the teeth and the file was spent. I've ordered some more which should be here early next week. I didn't want to waste the weather though, so I'm sharpening one of my Disston D8s at the moment. So good to see those gullets shine again.


----------



## need2boat

One can not really appreciate or understand the work in sanding plates till you do it a lot. . . .

Looks great Andy.

I try to match the plate to the restoration but do spend a good deal of time polishing the back before I reblue them.


----------



## lysdexic

Joe, you are right and wrong. You do have to sand a saw plate to appreciate how much work it is.But you don't have to do a lot of them to understand. I have refurbed only one sawplate (D8) and not to the degree that you and Andy do. It takes a lot of time and even more elbow grease to get a saw plate to look like that.

Well done, both of you.


----------



## Dcase

Dude- Right now I am good with just the one saw bench. I could rip boards with just the one bench but to be honest I probably wont be doing much ripping by hand. I do a lot of cross cutting by hand but I prefer my TS for ripping.


----------



## Brit

Nice work Joe. Is that a No.7? Have you ever come across a No.77 backsaw? I wouldn't mind getting hold of one of them but I suspect a good one would cost more than I'm prepared to pay.

EDIT: I see from your web site that you say its a No.4. How do you know it isn't a No.7? I know No.7s had bright steel backs when they were new, but they wouldn't be bright now would they? No.4s had linseed oil blued backs. I would have said your backsaw was a No.7 personally.


----------



## need2boat

It's so hard to tell as the plate etches on the Disston backsaws are often gone. I normally just look to see if it's a blued back. This one did so I call it a No 4. if it were not I'd say it were a No 7. I've not found a 77 or a No 5 like I think you have. Brass backs are few and far between.

the other tricky think about the 77 is once the etch is gone it's hard to pick out. the handle horn is a little different but boy. You have to be looking. I've got a lot of saws at this point so I just pull them out as I go or get a request from someone. Keep saying I'll do inventory but haven't found the time.

Andy do you have a source for dating S&J saws.



















I'm working on this one and looking at the hand saws makers book. the range on dates is quite large. I can post a pic of the handle just don't have it right here.

Joe


----------



## Brit

Last time I searched for information on S&J saws, I didn't find a great deal. You really need a few of their catalogues from different years to date them reliably. A picture of the handle would certainly help narrow it down. Post one when you've got a chance. I like a challenge.

There's a No.5 on ebay.co.uk at the moment. Should clean up ok. The seller wouldn't like me though. He says:
"The very heavy brass back has tarnished to a lovely dark colour and SHOULD NOT BE POLISHED!!! (in my humble opinion)."

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/230822624844?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649


----------



## Brit

Here's another No.5.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BRASS-BACKED-TENNON-SAW-HENRY-DISSTON-/261060413713?_trksid=p4340.m1374&_trkparms=algo%3DPI.WATCH%26its%3DC%252BS%26itu%3DUCC%26otn%3D15%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D586842580110333736


----------



## donwilwol

So here is today's find relevant to this thread.

I'm figuring you guys will agree this saw is worth $2.




























And here is the rest of the story. http://lumberjocks.com/topics/39731


----------



## lysdexic

Come on man! Really? $2?


----------



## donwilwol

I know I probably should have dickered with him some. It was the same dealer that sold me the type 11 5 1/2 for $5 a few weeks ago.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

You have got to be kidding me…$2 for that saw??? Okay, I'll give you three, but not more than twice that!



Nice score, Don.


----------



## RGtools

Don, you beat me….mine was $5. Nice haul.


----------



## mochoa

Don lives in the Antique heaven part of the country.


----------



## Brit

Correction Mauricio. Don lives in the antique capital of the world.


----------



## donwilwol

I'm still good with the $2.

26" 4 tpi. I beleive its a D8. Sharpened, plate and handle cleaned.


----------



## Brit

Three saws waiting for restoration. Top to bottom.

26" Disston No.7, 10 ppi crosscut, beech handle.
26" Ashton 5ppi rip, beech handle.
20" Disston D8, 12ppi, Apple handle, pre-1928.





































The tooth trade mark on the Ashton.


----------



## need2boat

Andy,

Here's that S&J handle. I'm guessing it's around. 1850 but It's so hard because I'm just going off characteristics of that time period.



















Joe AKA sawmonger ;-)


----------



## need2boat

Don,

That's a great score. I was up to north adams 2 weekends ago and was going to see if your around but I really only had Sunday free and figured you'd be out and about. Hopefully i can make it out that way before the end of the release season on the Deerfield river.

Joe


----------



## donwilwol

Let me know Joe. I'm planning to head down to the Great Barrington area, then down to CT to hit the elephants trunk in the next week end or 2. (for those that don't know the elephants trunk is a big flea market in Milford CT).

I was in Pittsfield on Friday. I hit a couple shops but nothing.


----------



## Brit

Joe - I think you are about right with the date for that S&J.

Can anyone tell me if a Disston D-8 rip saw also has the crown in the toothline like the crosscut saws did? Quick reply appreciated as I want to get it sharpened. Don - Was the toothline on your thumbhole D-8 straight?


----------



## terryR

had a d8 in my hands whilst reading…has a crown on the toothline large enough for an envelope to pass underneath.

edit…she's a rip…


----------



## Brit

Thanks Terry


----------



## racerglen

Seeing as you're about Andy..
The name Tommy Bar, in reference to the handle on a vice..heard of it ?


----------



## need2boat

Andy,

Yes it would have had the crown in it. All the rips they sold would have.

Jinting it back in isn't hard just don't over think it or the next thing you know, your down to the gullets again. BTDT. ;-)

Joe


----------



## donwilwol

My is straight


----------



## Brit

Interesting Don. I've checked a few pictures online and they do appear to have a crown. I'll sharpen it with a crown and if I don't like it, I can always remove it again.

Thanks for your help and quick response.


----------



## need2boat

I'd say no two have the same. Some it's been jointed out others have a lot. I think it's got more to do with the saw smith doing the work as in most cases what ever came from the factory would have been altered somewhat over the year. 
If its been run thru a foley there is a good chance it cut straight and then filed back in. The easiest way to tell is if it's still progressive tooth or not. The foley can't cut progressive.

Joe


----------



## Brit

Glen - Yep, I'd call that a Tommy Bar too. Sorry for the delay. Been filing another saw.

Don - I wouldn't worry that yours is straight. Some people don't like crown in saws. If it works for you, then it's right.

Joe - Had to do three joint and shape cycles to on that saw to shape the crown properly, space the teeth out correctly and change it from crosscut to rip. I went with 5 degrees of rake. I'm going to fine tune it tomorrow, set the teeth and call it done. Thanks for your input.


----------



## donwilwol

I rechecked mine. I've got 2 Disston rip saws. Both are straight, but the D8 has a little wave, so it could have had a crown. Next sharpening It probably should be jointed some, but its working fine now, so I'll leave well enough alone.


----------



## donwilwol

got up the nerve to try sharpening another backsaw today. I think I figured out what my problem was. It's something between stupidity and foolishness, and we'll leave it at that.

I restored this several months ago. I tried to sharpen it once (maybe twice)and made a disaster of it. Today it went well after a simple revelation.





































Thanks for the motivation you guys provide. (along with solid info)


----------



## Brit

Does that mean I don't need to make a video of how to fix the teeth in that photo you posted? Am I off the hook?
Congrats by the way. What rake and fleam did you use?


----------



## donwilwol

i didn't use a rake i used a file and most of my fleam is gone but I still have a little cough.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
about 15 and 20 degrees respectively.


----------



## Brit

Very funny.

I love the moment when you get to try out a saw after sharpening, but I always wonder what it would be like with a slightly different geometry. Glad you got it sorted.


----------



## need2boat

+1 for that. The look and cut of a clean cross cut plate with 15ºR 30ºF is a joy even after you've do a few.

JFF


----------



## donwilwol

saw dust and shavings. the simple joys of simple men.


----------



## terryR

Don, you make me jealous…saws, planes, chisels, hammers, it doesn't matter…

But I enjoy your joy!


----------



## thedude50

hey guys i took a couple of my saws to the local saw shop. I was very pleased at the price and the guy is going to tutor me on sharpening saws . the other saw was awful When it cut it felt like it was a frigging ginder and the tear out was awful you had to shove the saw through the work i Was PISSED AFTER ALL I WAITED A THREE WEEK PERIOD FOR THIS ********************. I was fit to be tied I took it back and asked what the hell they thought it was going to cut he said it should cut anything . I showed him my walnut test cuts with the huge tear out on the back he said he would fix it in one day and then called me Monday i got it home and am on the fence i think it should cut a lot smoother and my saws that Matt did are way finer cut he said they could joint it flat and reshape the teeth to get a better cut but that this was as good as they could get it to cut I needed the saw to cut my shoulder cuts for the stretchers for the big bench build so i cant just ship it off to joe or matt and wait three months to get it back so i DECIDED TO WORK WITH IT THE WAY IT SITS. I have to tell you the set may be to narrow as it wants to bind in the Cerf and I was not too happy as i was still getting tear out in walnut so i waxed the plate and went to work it has improved a bit but i dont know what to do with it. I know the dude knows how to sharpen but i think his geometry is wrong and i dont want to insult him as he is going to teach me how to sharpen but if his work sucks this bad do i want him teaching me any thing . well the maple of the bench may have tamed the saw a bit no tear out in the maple but I dont like the feel of the saw it cuts very straight and I may have told him to remove too much set that had the kerf looking like a porcupine I dont know what to do but to use it and to later get a real master to fix this job when i can be with out the saw for three months


----------



## thedude50

joe i boxed the marples saw and it is on its way in the morning


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## Brit

Dude - You can avoid the tearout on important cuts by using a marking knife of marking gauge to scribe all around the cut. Sawjust to the waste side of the line and you won't get any tearout on the bit that matters.


----------



## need2boat

Hey Andy,

Could you venture a guess as to what the going rate would be for a 14" backsaw such as the S&J I posted would have sold for in 1850.

Would a pound be about right?

Joe


----------



## Brit

You come up with some great questions Joe. )

I can give you an guestimate, but that's all it is. In 1921, you could buy a dozen (12) steel-backed 14" saws for 64 shillings (old money). Let's assume that in 1850 they were half that price, so 32 shillings. So one saw would have cost you under 3 shillings. For arguments sake let's say it cost 3 shillings. 1 shilling equates to about 5 pence today, so 1 saw would have cost you 15 pence. You could have bought 6 of them for £1.00 and gone home with change in your pocket.

In 1860, a carpenter in London would have earnt around 6 shillings per week working 10 hours a day, 6 days a week. A saw like that would have cost them half their weekly wage.

That said, don't quote me on it. ;o)


----------



## need2boat

Andy that is more then perfect. I'm sure like all of us the history behind these saws and how old they are is sometimes lost in the shuffle. I was just writing something for the blog and wanted to tie it back to a price.

This will be more then perfect. Oh and I"m quoting you!

JFF


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## Brit

I'll deny all knowledge Joe.

I just received some more saw files today. In particular I'd been waiting for a 5" XX Slim to finish a backsaw that I'm retoothing to 12tpi. All of the three corners had flats on them, so I couldn't use it. Had to get them to send out a replacement. I asked them to test it first this time. Hopefully, the next one will be useable.

I think if anything kills the art of saw filing it will be the lack of reliable files to get the job done. Amazing really isn't it. They could make them 50 years ago, but they can't get them right now.


----------



## terryR

^a bum file for £11.50??? what a shame!

guess I better PAY ATTENTION to your solution to that problem…because I'm sure they'll package up more of those for that 'Overseas order' I'm about to place…


----------



## AJswoodshop

Wow those saws are amazing!

AJ


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## rilanda

W.Haye & sons Ltd Nottingham saw manufacturer?








W.Haye saw handle








W.Haye saw handle








W.Haye & sons stamp

A rare find, a dovetail saw made in Nottingham? I have done a little checking and this company are listed in a trade directory as saw manufacturers (amongst other things) but were they really? Could they have been a company buying quality saws from another make and with their permission applying their own stamp. The saw is as I received it, a little cleaning was done to the blade and the saw was trued up and sharpened for dovetail work, the handle is exactly as it was; I prefer to leave my saws with a little patina left on them. I am not sure about the saws age but looking at the nuts I would think somewhere about the turn of the 19th/20th century. The saw is in regular use and it is a sweet tool to use.


----------



## Brit

Hi Bill,

Have I got a treat for you my friend. Let me tell you what I've found out about your saw. First of all it isn't *Haye*, but *Kaye*. There is a whole website created by a descendent which is a wonderful tribute to the family business. All you could want to know in one place. Here is the link:

http://tskayeandsons.weebly.com/

At the bottom of the page you will see a link to the Kaye tool catalogue and you can download a PDF of the catalogue. You will see your saw on Page 44.

Have fun!


----------



## Brit

Excert from the above website:

The business flourished under Thomas Swaine's [Kaye] (William Kaye's father) rule: he imported iron nails from France and Belgium, and machine tools from Germany. He visited tool-makers in Sheffield regularly to order his stock (which he ensured was always stamped with the 'Kaye' brand), and he even designed and had made new tools


----------



## thedude50

thanks Andy I was cutting the tenons for my stretchers that make a leg pair and they are fixed in place when finished these are a load of work. I was not happy with the shoulder on the practice piece that i got on the table saw so I went with hand cut shoulders. I took your advise and made deep cuts with the marking knife and am happy that they turned out the way they did.


----------



## rilanda

Thanks for the info Andy, it is so complete, I have downloaded the catalogue. What a catalogue, once again many thanks friend for your assistance. The stamp on my saw is fairly heavy and the K does look like a H but I have now had a closer look and can confirm it is a K. But did Kays make the tools or was they being sub-contracted out, and where was Kays shop in Nottingham and when did they close. This saw I inherited from a neighbour (a much older man than me) who passed away about 15 year ago at the tender age of 94. I suspect he bought this saw new many years ago from the Kays shop in Nottingham but where was they.


----------



## rilanda

Found the answer to one question Andy it is just visible on the front of the catalogue almost lost with the torn off corner. Kayes shop in Nottingham was on Goosegate.


----------



## Brit

Just call me Sherlock Bill. )

It is unfortunate that the corner of the catalogue with the street No. has been torn off. I have emailed Tony Kaye to see if he can tell us the exact address. Seeing as they had a corner plot for their shop in Hull, I'm wondering if it was the the Hockley Express Minimarket on the corner of Brightmoor St and Goose Gate.










He would probably be interested in adding photos of your saw to his site if you are agreeable.


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## Brit

Bill - As to whether Kayes made the tools, you first have to define the word 'made'. Many of the companies whose names appear on saws of that era did not manufacture them from scratch. What I mean is, they didn't make the steel. They would have gone to one of the big Sheffield manufacturers (Spear & Jackson, W. Tyzack, Sons & Turner, Drabble & Sanderson, etc) and ordered the steel which would have arrived on a roll. They might have cut the plates out and sharpened them themselves. The backs were probably ordered in with their brand stamped on them. They might have made the totes, but they too were probably sub-contracted.

T.S. Kaye & Sons did consider themselves to tool manufacturers though as this plane confirms and there are pictures of their workshop on the site with people sitting there grinding bayonets for the war effort.


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## donwilwol

Andy, you need to start consolidating all this information you dig up. It will make a wonderful book. I know its all out there, but having it in one place would be great.


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## Johnnyblot

Good work Sherlock. The tote looks to me to have Tyzack style/ influence, which would tie in nicely to the theory of Kaye having tools made to order?


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## Brit

I don't see Tyzack in that tote John. If I was a betting man, I would put my money on Drabble and Sanderson. There are a lot of similarities between Bill's Kaye and a D&S saw of that size and of that period in time. We'll probably never know though.


----------



## Johnnyblot

Andy-Just wondering if you know if the big saw makers made their own handles or went to 'Joe Bloggs" t'other side of Sheffield who perhaps made handles to order??


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## Johnnyblot

I had a good week end cleaning up two saws I'd acquired from a car boot sale recently. I got four saws for £10. All 10" brass backs. Two Spear & Jackson, one Mawhood Bros.and one WILFIN. They had all come from a local Technical College so on the face of it they'd had a hard life: -



But it turns out they were not too bad. 
The WILFIN before-





And after the clean up:-







The Mawhood Bros. before & during:-



...and after :-





Now together on the chopping block-



Next job they need sharpening..
Cheers
John


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## donwilwol

those are nice saws John. I love the brass backed saws.


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## dbray45

Very nice work John


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## terryR

Sweet!

Those are both lovely restores! I'm a sucker for the shiny brass, too…


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## DaddyZ

Nice Work John but I for one would have liked to have seen you keep the Previous owners Names/Initials intact, shows some of the history of the saw…Other than that beautiful Saws!!!


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## Fishinbo

Wow, excellent job in restoring these beautiful tools from old times. I will try to restore one if my time permits. Your creative inputs give me ideas.


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## Brit

John - Wonderful work as always.

Regarding whether or not the big saw manufacturers made their own handles, I think it depends on the period. In the early 19th century, 'saw handle maker' was a separate profession in which they apprenticed for 1 year, before being let loose. I think a lot of handles at that time were made by men working at home and delivered to the company whose name was to be on the saw. That way they could work for a number of different manufacturers. They would have followed the manufacturer's template. In the late 19th century, I think it started to move 'in house' as more and more of the work started to be done by machine. By the 20th century, it was all in house and by 40s and 50s, it was virtually all done by machine.

Don't quote me on it though as most of what I just said is just based on stuff I've read in vairous places and a bit of reading between the lines. I could be wrong.


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## need2boat

Andy,

that's an interesting take on handles. Most of what I deal with is from 1901 on and from the US and I would have guessed most smaller manufactures made everything in-house to keep cost down but back then labor cost was much less and it might have been cheaper to farm out the handles.

food for thought

JFF


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## Johnnyblot

I find the handles fascinating, 'back in the day', craftsmen took a pride in what they were producing and that it was important to them. Why else put things like 'nibs' and 'lambs tongues' on a wooden handle?
Obviously each manufacturer will have had their own pattern. My experience of British manufacturing is that the wood & the metal shops were kept separate. Which to me means they could be in house or farmed out, which doesn't answer our question? Never mind.

I'd say by the 60's &70's, when traditional handles (re, Old Fashioned) and made from wood were replaced by nice shiny modern plastic (you know what I'm saying here) or planks of wood with a slot for your fingers were most likely bought in from elsewhere. Who knows, or even cares other than us sad folk. Lol

Cheers
John


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## need2boat

They other thing I love about handles are all the owners marks. You can trace the value of the saw by the quality of them. The latest being very poorly done with Pen knife. One of the pleasures I have in restoring them for resale is knowing I've knocked them back up a peg. Most of the new owners I hear from are please as punch and wouldn't dream of carving there name in them with a rusty nail.

Joe


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## Brit

Personally, I hate maker's marks on saws. I know the saw cost them a week's wages and I know theft was commonplace, but why they have to stamp their name four times on each side of the handle is beyond me. If a maker's mark is going to deter anyone from nicking it, then one stamp would work equally as well as eight. If someone is going to take it regardles of the mark, then they'll be no more detered by eight than one mark.

So I say, sand out those pesky marks. They're *MY SAWS I TELL YOU, MINE*, not Henry Wallopbottom's.


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## carguy460

Ha…Wallopbottom….


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## Johnnyblot

Whoa there champ! Take a deep breath!

By the way you're not wrong. Some saws are litterally covered. It's like woo hoo I've got a set of stamps and I'm gonna use em. Lol

Cheers


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## Brit

Ok maybe I came on a bit strong there John but I've been having a bad saw day. )


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## lysdexic

No kidding. Right? I thought one of us were going to have to talk him down!


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## need2boat

Viva La owners mark!

I agree the really tacky ones are bad but it's a good indicator of value. As the value drops so does the care for the saw. I think the first owners who paid all that money most likely DID place them well. Then as the saw changed hands plus power tools came along there value really dropped. so do the marks. I've got a few that look like they were done with a rusty nail.

Regardless Its like the first scratch on a car. You can freak out and have it repainted or just realize it doesn't effect the performance and take solace in the fact it will piss of the second owner 10 times as much. . ;-)

Joe


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## donwilwol

so Andy, you don't like the makers marks?


----------



## Brit




----------



## DaddyZ

To Each thier Own, Otherwise I wouldn't have Blue painted Planes !


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## need2boat

Yea some don't like the blended Bourbon whiskeys.

JFF


----------



## donwilwol




----------



## terryR

hang on…
there's a big difference in a maker's mark…and an owner's mark…

I love the whiskey…hate the crude carving of initials in nice tools.


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## donwilwol

I'm thinking it to much of the whiskey makes you go crazy and add to many makers marks. I know I've done some pretty stupid things with to much makers mark. That said, I never got a tattoo (sort of like a makers mark, no).


----------



## RGtools

Andy, Might I request a Workmate pun?


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

I have a Disston short backsaw that has the letters RISC stamped on the handle about six times, along with the number 4. Figures Rhode Island State College was a manual training / trade school in the early 1900s only, and is now UConn. Interesting story, I'll keep the marks (too deep to remove, really!)


----------



## donwilwol

What do you get when you cross a work mate and Jack Daniels?

Answer, a wobbly work bench.

wait….that's not a pun.


----------



## Brit

That's good enough Don, because I don't know what the hell Ryan means either. LOL.

Mauricio - When I said maker's marks, I meant owner's marks. I blame Joe. He called them that first and I blindly followed his lead. )


----------



## terryR

…if I have any more of this Maker's Mark, I won't make it to work, mate…


----------



## Johnnyblot

Andy- marrah you need a break. It's the Olympics in a couple of days time. So chill out, have a wee dram of an 18yr old single malt with some ice ( not too much, you wouldn't want to drown it). Then watch the women's beach volley ball teams ;-). That'll put a smile on your dial.
Rest the workmate against the fence for a while. Chat to the wife ( lots of brownie points there). When it's all over you can get back down to more tinkering 'n' tuning of the blades etc. you've earned it.


----------



## Brit

Somebody pass the needle and thread, my sides are splitting. )


----------



## Brit

You're not wrong John.


----------



## thedude50

I remove owners marks as they devalue the tool too much I seem to get a lot of planes with things stamped in the drivers lisence numbers and loads of number stamps tike they were in a large tool room my 602 has a 14 stamped on the site it is small but i leave it there as I don't feel like sanding a 1/32 off the side of a plane and a saw plate forget about it


----------



## ArlinEastman

Wow guys you did some awesome restore work there. I was given afew saws and they still need sharpening, however, until I can get them done I use a new Lee Valley dovetail saw another guy gave me. It is a wonderful saw to use.

Arlin


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## Johnnyblot

*Andy*- you say you don't like owners marks???

Methinks its a case of 'Pot calling Kettle'!



I rest my case m'lud.

Edit- it looks like it was written with a left hand too. LMAO


----------



## lysdexic

LOL. That is awesome Johnny.


----------



## DaddyZ

Thanks Johnny !!!

I prefer to leave the Marks due to the fact it shows some of the Story of the life of the Tool.
The More Different Marks usually means More than (1) Person/Craftsman thought it was a fine Instrument to have.

Dude, as far as Devaluing the tool, I would Think Sanding them Off & Changing the Width,Length,etc of the Part/tool would be even more reason to devale a tool…

But as I said Above, to each thier Own. I like so many others here make my tools my own. & don't care what others may think, it belongs to me. BAWAAAH HAHA !!!


----------



## thedude50

daddy i didn't make it up just check the clean restored tools vs- the ones with owners marks the prices are miles apart my source is ebay


----------



## Brit

*Bill* - I heard back from Tony Kaye this morning. Here is his reply:

"Dear Andy

Thanks for your email and your kind comments about the Kayes website, and please forgive this tardy reply.

And, yes, please send me a photo of the tenon saw and any 'story' that might go with it. The Nottingham shop was at 29 Goosegate. I have dim memories of visiting it with my father when I was a kid - originally, his brother Tom was supposed to run the shop, but he was a gambling man, and the severe William Henry, my grandfather, sacked him, and Tom was packed off to the colonies - to what is now Zambia, and no-one heard of him since…..apparently he ran a farm in Kitwe for a few years.

Best wishes
Tony Kaye"

*Bill *- Do you mind if I send him the photos of your saw? Is there a story to go with it?


----------



## rilanda

Thanks for that Andy, maybe if he still has the shop sales records he could trace that the saw was bought new back in the 1920's (I think) by my neighbour Mr Sydney Lindley, name appears on the saw tote, he was the fellow I inherited the saw from, sadly no longer with us. RIP Sid.


----------



## bandit571

Next up for re-hab??









Just a dollar a piece. The No. 16 has parts on the way, about $10 worth of saw bolts, Brass, of course. The warranted Superior will need ONE new bolt. I have the 16 apart, and the blade is now rust free. The etch is just barely visable. Disston's logo sitting inside a big cirlcle, with a lot of script letters to the right of it. Also can make out the "& Sons" on both ares.

The WS? Seems to be from just before Disston was bought out by HK Porter, mid 50s? Kind of a plain jane medallion on it.

Both will get a sharpening…..
















90 year old steel, can expect some pits, right?









Could not find an etch on the WS saw, though..









Should be a fun time….


----------



## bandit571

A look at the cleaned up No. 16 saw blade:









No more rust!









Not sure WHAT the squiggles are, though..









still have some pitting though. The rest of the day was spent doing THIS…









I think he has the right idea….


----------



## bandit571

The No. 16's tote has a couple spots of silver paint on it. Now i have to take things back to bare wood, glue up that cracked part, and a re-finish. Junior is about 6 weeks old, but he seems to know just what to do on a steamy afternoon.


----------



## thedude50

It it 110 here today You are right about the heat.

Well guys Joe just sent me a photo of my Marples saw he re plated it looks damn good to me. I may refinish the tote, I don't like the stain on the tote. I am torn it does have a lovely patina, so what do you guys say refinish or leave it alone?


----------



## Johnnyblot

Dude- It's a tough call, one I wouldn't like to make. If that was an ugly tote I wouldn't hesitate to replace it. But it's a very fine example of a 'traditional' English saw handle, with a nice lambs tongue. Now it has a new saw plate the tote look s a little out of place.

At the end of the day you have a fine Marples saw (made in Sheffield ) just enjoy it 

Cheers
John


----------



## lysdexic

I don't know Dude. It looks pretty good to me.


----------



## need2boat

The thing is I'm not the high polish type because everytime you touch it, you gota wipe it down. I refinish a fair share of the totes I sell but when they are clean and don't need repairs I tend to do as little as needed. If the stain is really driving you nuts you can bleach just that area.

Joe


----------



## thedude50

I don't know what I am going to do Joe. It looks so nice But I am first and foremost going to use the saw. I wish the stain was not there, I don't know why so many saws have what look like ink stains on them. I may strip it and refinish it or I might just leave it like it is. This is a hard decision. I know I could refinish it and make it look like new but I like the aged look myself so I may just have to get over it.


----------



## ksSlim

The stain one the grip maybe mineral from fingertips. If you must try to remove stains, I find that oxalic acid is very effective for minerals and some markers. We use oxalic on saddles to remove mineral stains from leather, just happens to work well on most woods.


----------



## Brit

Personally I doubt you could use oxalic acid on the stain without adversely affecting the surrounding area. If it was me and the handle felts good in the hand, I would leave it. If it feels rough to the touch, I would refinish it. For me it is more about how it feels than how it looks. Either way, you have a great saw now Lance.


----------



## terryR

Lance, I would vote " leave as is".

If you really turn to dislike it, sell it to me! 

seriously,


----------



## bandit571

I'm hand-sanding away all the old finish on the No.16's tote. Silver paint spots were everywhere. Dug them out of the carvings, even. Going to go back to almost bare wood, pump some glue into that cracked area, fine sand the whole thing, and add a finish, no stain. I've had good luck with Poly on handles, so….


----------



## Dcase

Hey, do any of you know what kind of saw this is? Its marked Disston on the medallion and on the plate. I haven't been able to find another one like this.


----------



## donwilwol

I've never seen anything like it Dan.


----------



## Dcase

I have searched the Disston Institute and couldn't find one like it on there. I suppose the handle could be a custom job?


----------



## Dcase

Did you guys see this?


----------



## chrisstef

Thats a oretty boss saw there Dan. Ive got a Disston miter saw that id sacrifice for a DT saw of that magnitude. I might have to work on my "inspector gadget" arm though. These little chicken wings couldnt handle a 30" stroke.


----------



## terryR

Dan, I think that Disston is a custom job all the way…I have a couple of Keyhole saws from Disston and they look nothing like the one you've found.

In fact, that second photo sort of shows a shadow line where a previous handle covered the steel for a while…or is that just a shadow? 

Take it apart…


----------



## mochoa

Haha, Dan is that their last april fools joke?


----------



## ksSlim

Read somewhere that saw has a total of 436 teeth/points.


----------



## donwilwol

that part of the Pinocchio story must have been edited out.


----------



## Brit

Dan that saw is what is known as a table and pruning saw. They can be found in their 1913 catalogue, although the two shown below have three bolts instead of the two shown on your saw.

You might like to read this post from Toolemera.


----------



## Dcase

Andy, Thanks! I checked out the link from Toolemera and if you scroll down a bit you will find someone posted a picture of the same saw I have with two bolts.

That link has lots of info on the saw. Thanks again


----------



## Brit

The internet's your friend Dan. It's all out there somewhere. )


----------



## bandit571

went rust hunting this afternoon. Spent about $5 on a few items. Spent more at the Home Despot for cleaning stuff. Lots of rust to remove…









Couple reugalr length saws, and that BIG saw


Code:


28" long.     Something looks firmiliar  about that tote.    All three saws are warranted Superior brands.     Two have the eagle in the center, the other?  Ain't an eagle there, just some letters.  Anyway, three large saws

$1 each, screwdrivers were $.50 each.









I'll know more about this one, after I clean him up. The Stanley? Completes a set I have.









I have one with that D-7/D-8 tote on it, the other two saws have something "else"









The one medallion has an Eagle, the other does not. Ugly twins? Speaking of which, there is a fourth saw in this group, at least it has a blade with teeth, and a wood handle….









Hey, it only cost $.50, alright? It is about three sawnuts, the rest can go wherever they want to. Maybe a back saw handle???

Oh, and a pair of shoes, since i'm wearing mine out, for $.75. Even picked up a couple hacksaw blades for that GReat Neck hacksaw i have. Not too bad a day?


----------



## Brit

Do you know what would be really funny Bandit? With all your bargain hunting, I'm waiting for the day when you come home with a saw that you've restored before.


----------



## bandit571

Ship my restore saws out of state. TOO MANY old saws still around this area to restore. Trying to figure out that big saw. D-7/D-8 tote? 28"+ long. I'm trying to get a tpi count, since nobody stamped one on the blade. looks almost like someone had cut the length down, as well. No pits on the blade, just some rust. Brass hardware. WS Medallion, with an Eagle in it. BIG saw. Might be worth the dollar bill I paid for it?









I seem to be back restoring saws, again.


----------



## Johnnyblot

My next project is to make one of these: -









From this:-










I think it will be a very useful saw-


----------



## bandit571

Need a tote for it…..









The red paint needs a little touch up…..


----------



## Brit

You're a funny man Bandit.


----------



## Brit

Go for it John. I still have to use the steel I bought off ebay. I should easily get 2×14 " and 2×12" backsaws out of it. I need to source some brass to make the folded backs (none of this slotted stuff for me } ) and some nice wood for the totes. I'd love to find a nice piece of Cocabolo, but I'm open to other spieces too.


----------



## Johnnyblot

I'm robbing the Brass Back off a dodgy S&J 10"


----------



## lysdexic

Andy, you are a funny man as well. In America we often speak of British humor. I've not quite figured out what that means but I am consistently a fan.


----------



## lysdexic

Oh, Bandito- I am coveting the big monster saw you have there. That thar is a keeper.

Johnny- looking forward to watching the panel/back saw project . Keep us posted. I want one.


----------



## thedude50

Well I thought i was going to piss my self Dan. I have been looking everywhere for that saw. I am willing to pay big bucks for the Table saw if your willing to sell it. I would love to own that saw and I would actually make it a user.


----------



## bandit571

I now have that BIG handsaw cleaned up, saw bolts are polished nice and bright, even found one for the missing bolt. Top horn is missing a chunk, otherwise the tote is in great shape. Blade is missing ONE tooth, not a big deal. Might just sharpen it back up, and called it good. never found any etch, might be a little hard to name this saw. Tote LOOKS like a D-8 style, but the medallion is an eagle surrounded by that Warranted Superior stuff. Might going to Ebay in a day or two…....

Waiting on parts for the No.16 saw to get here. I'll have the tote fixed by then, blade will see a file, and then maybe off to the bay.

The three "Common" saws: I have all the hardware cleaned up, nice and shiny. On the one saw, the WS medallion does not have the eagle. It does have a "MADE IN USA" inside the circle. All three saw have nickel plated hardware. Still need one nickel plated bolt for that one saw.

Found out I can chuck those saw bolts into my cordless drill's chuck, give them a spin into a purple scratchy pad, and shine them right up. Need to bring in the 1/4 sheet sander, and clean the rest of the saw plates. This just might be fun….


----------



## bandit571

had some camera troubles, will try this again…









Sitting in a sawkerf it cut in five strokes, all cleaned up.









The "Money side", find the replacement saw bolt?









Somebody get hungry?? Doubt IF I will fix it.









And the "B" side. Blade length is just over 28", and it is 7-1/2" wide back at the handle. Out on the toe, it still is almost 3" wide. BIG saw!


----------



## Brit

I'm sceptical about the above post so I've flagged it here and on the Work Bench Smackdown thread. Be careful until the moderators have verified it.

What I want to know is why can't Jim whatever his name is speak for himself?


----------



## thedude50

Ya it is spam i GET THAT EMAIL EVERY DAY WHAT A LOAD OF CRAP


----------



## need2boat

A few post back Andy and some others were commenting about the use of wood bleach it being difficult to use on local blemishes. Two things I've found help, 1st is obvious, dilution with water. The other is wetting out the area first reduces the penetration. That's kind of obvious too but figured I'd throw it out there.

Per the compass saw. I picked up what looks like a D-19 flooring saw but it's configured more like a regular saws. The teeth were mostly worn so I'm considering toothing it for a DT saw. I like the way the handle is adjustable with the "t" lock.

TGiF

Joe


----------



## Brit

Just wanted to say that my comment in post #1933 does NOT refer to bandit571's entry above it, but to a spam post that has since been removed by the administrators.


----------



## bandit571

On a Walk-about today:









two coping saws at a Thrift Store. Along with a pint of Red Krylon Paint for a little handsaw handle. Speaking of Handsaw Handles….









An E.C. Atkins & Co. out of Indy. IND. It even has a readable etch to it! I have merely polished the Brass hardware on this one. The teeth look funny? So does the entire blade..









If you get my "point". Maybe a "Ship" saw?  about 21" long along them crazy teeth. Handle does have a crack in it, and a chip in the top horn is missing.









Blade seems to be original to the handle. It also has a bend out on the end.

price for all of this booty? $3.00 I even walked and saved gas. About an eight block one way walk. Well. I have to go out an put a second coat of RED paint on a handle…..


----------



## donwilwol

I picked up another thumb hole disston rip. I will be cleaning it up at some point. I also bought a Disston crosscut without a tote. The 3rd was a buck, so I bought ti for the brass.










The one without a blade has a good etch, but I can't quit make out the number.


----------



## donwilwol

A few more pictures of the thumb hole disston.


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## terryR

Nice score, Don…haven't seen one that old with BOTH horns intact for a while…

I've been dying to know HOW they made that handle back in the day!!! I mean, with the blade 'set in' to the tote.

Andy? Joe? Anyone know?

And, of course, I need to know so I can give it an attempt! AFTER I finish this Disston no7 tote, and a Disston apple tote for a pro-sharpened blade, and the 2 planes already in pieces…

No, no problems here…I can quit anytime.


----------



## need2boat

Don,

that sunken nut D-8 is a real sweat heart. The plates looks like it's been sharpened a few times but still has has good life!

I gota get up your way. ;-) Per the blade kerf in the handle.

I read somewhere? backsaw.net or maybe woodnet that DIsston used a very thin circular blade to cut them. I'm always impress with how the cut the blade for the "let in" handles. I'm guessing they stamped them out pre tempering the blade.

Joe


----------



## planepassion

Don, that D-8 thumber is going to clean up nicely under your care. It's a beaut. A couple of months ago I hit a handsaw honey hole-a guy on CL had a barrel of vintage saws, $3.00 each.

Among the six I brought home was this thumber-a later, and less beautiful model (1917-1940), your handle is exquisite!-but still my first D-8 thumbhole:



















I'm still marveling at your find Don. I can't wait to see it after your restoration.

Andy, way to go on keeping the proper decorum in this forum.


----------



## bandit571

On a "lighter" note, Managed to get that Kid's Saw almost done:









Painting isn't my strong point…









So, now I have to go back and scrape un-wanted red paint from the metal. Never could get those bolts out. Grandson has already "claimed" it, though…


----------



## Brit

Terry - I'm disappointed in you. Joe is right of course, but the answer to your question was in Saw Talk #16. I don't know why I bother. ) LOL.


----------



## thedude50

Andy I would like to see all your saw talks put in to a easy to read extended format and maybe even a book. What do you say how about re posting them as a long blog on this old Workshop.com It would get you a whole new audience as our readers are mostly power tool guys but I am trying to make the site more well rounded. I don't think it would be that much work to cut and past the blog into a easy to read linear blog. And this material belongs to you so you have the right to re post it where ever you like. My offer is sincere and so is my desire to share this blog content with lots of my readers.


----------



## need2boat

I should have known I read it in one of Andy's posts. That where I got all my good info from!

Joe


----------



## terryR

aaahhh…now I see the ONE line I missed…

first saw handle to have the kerf cut with a circular saw blade

I knew there was a reason I read your posts over and over…there is just so much data it takes a while for all of it to sink into my thick head! 

Thanks, Andy!


----------



## Brit

Lance - I see my blog posts as transient things, just a snapshot of what I'm doing at any given time. I don't really want them to be anything else. I don't claim to be an expert on saws and for that reason, I wouldn't want to set myself up as one. Thanks for the offer, but I'll pass.

Terry - You're forgiven )


----------



## thedude50

Andy, Do me a favor and read the disclaimer on this old workshop .com. I think you will find it ironically funny .


----------



## thedude50

Bandit that paint job reminds me of a cherry burst pattern on my guitar.


----------



## SamuelP

Found this saw at the local flea-market. Might be worth more than I paid.




























The only place I found it referenced is here.

i


----------



## donwilwol

Its pretty cool Sam. I doubt I could have walked away from it.


----------



## Brit

Nice find Sam. I haven't seen one with that much depth of plate on it before. Are you going to turn it into a user?


----------



## SamuelP

Well Brit I would but it might be worth more than I am use to. If you see the spine is stamped Henry disston and not disston and son(s). This should be a very early disston saw. My dad knows the gentleman who wrote the article that I referenced so he will contact him about the saw. Hopefully I can buy a few nice users instead of just this one. If it is what I think it is a "collector " would appreciate it more than I.


----------



## Brit

That's why I was asking Sam. I think that is the right move.


----------



## chrisstef

That saw is gorgeous Sam. Looks really really early and i agree with lettin that one be.


----------



## Mosquito

I picked one up not too long ago…



















I've cleaned it up with some lemon juice and baking soda. I haven't done anything to the handle yet, other than glue up a crack.


----------



## SamuelP

Mos - Check out the link for dating a Disston back saw it is a great source of info.

http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/pBaker/datingDisston/datDisston-01.asp


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## donwilwol

Mos, it looks like this one http://lumberjocks.com/donwilwol/blog/24114


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## Mosquito

Thanks for the link Sam. Would that also apply to the Jackson saws too? That's what mine is.


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## thedude50

Sam I would like to buy the saw for a collector client of mine. I am ready to deal on the saw so shoot me a pm with a price. I will see if he will go for it. I get a paid commission from him for any tools he buys so it wont effect his price he pays the finders fee directly to me.


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## SamuelP

Mos-sorrynjust disston. I had dsston oj the brain. But that wikifine tools has a bunch of info.

Dude- My dad already has a few guys interested. If they don't pan out I will give you a shout.


----------



## need2boat

Over the weekend I picked up a few saws mostly for resale but got a few interesting ones for myself.

From what I can find Boker is from Remscheid, Germany and the sister city to Solengen, which was famous for its' steel. Remscheid was where they used the steel in producing tools, swords, knives, and razors. It was founded in the 12th century and they are still making tools there today. Boker was one of the major producers of all kinds of tools and marketed them to England and America. I then even though it uses rivets it's from the mid 1800.




























Also picked up a few basket cases as I'm a little nuts. This one should be interesting. The other 2 are also brass backed but the handles were poor replacements but did have org. hardware.


----------



## terryR

Wow, that Boker has a beautiful medallion! Nice finds, Joe…

Don't see a basket case in any of the photos…just fine tools that have been in the wrong hands for a while. Hey, if you'd like to sell one of those brass backers with lousy handle, please give me a shout.


----------



## bandit571

While this isn't a backsaw, it is a nice little handsaw…









An Atkins 26" skew back saw? 10ppi? Another look?









Fancy medallion, and an overall look at a "barn Find Saw"









A $1 saw….


----------



## need2boat

Posted this to my FB page for second chance saw works and figured you all might enjoy as well. It's a nice example of a WM&C, XLCR series which was there higher end saws . The #2 I believe is the size/style.










Joe


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## donwilwol

Is it pitted bad Joe? It looks like it could use some TLC!


----------



## Brit

Nice one Joe, I particularly like the tote. I don't think I've ever seen such a huge chamfer stop. It extends right down to the top of the medallion.


----------



## Mosquito

I realized I posted this in the restoration thread, but not here… as a follow up on that Jackson back saw I posted earlier, I eventually did get around to doing something with the handle


----------



## need2boat

Yea the plate isn't in the best of shape but I most likely wouldn't recondition it for use. It's more a piece if history. I've got a really nice example of there early work. I'm a sucker for the early US makers. I also picked up am early Bakewell.


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## Brit

Nice job Mos, that came out better than I thought it would.


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## YorkshireStewart

The website www.backsaw.net is almost certain to be known by the regulars to this thread. However, it's probably worth another mention if only for its templates of nineteen open and fifteen closed handles. Here's an example.


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## Dcase

Need some more help from the saw experts. I picked up a saw last weekend at the flea market and I would like to ID it. The medallion is marked Warranted Superior and looks a lot like a Disston made saw. I uncovered some of the etch but for the life of me I cant make out all that it says.

The etch has an oval with the statue of liberty in the center. Under the picture I can make out Cincinnati, OH. To the right of the picture it says SAW, to the left of the picture there are at least two letters that I can make out.

There is wording above the picture that I can not make out and I am assuming this is the makers name. I know this is not much to work with but I figured I would check with you guys.

Here is the best picture I could get of the etch. I want to ID the saw before I try and clean it up anymore and risk fading the etch.


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## bandit571

Cincy would be either a Bishop co. saw, or an Atkins saw. While Disston did put out a "Victory" saw, I don't think this is it. Atkins used an oval style etch, but Bishop used a circle. Atkins moved to Indy, and George Bishop stayed in Cincy. Might be a George Bishop Panel saw….









The etch on the one I had.









Warranted Superior, with a "disston" #7 or "76" style tote. Full length. The Bishop saw i had was a Panel saw, but might have been made after yours.









Take your choice..


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## ShaneA

Alright guys, when I last left the saw experts, I was beginning to tool up on the hand saws. So far the hand saw family consists of a few flush cut saws, and Veritas DT saw and a set of Veritas carcass saws. I have been practicing cutting dovetails, trying to find my way. Progress is being made, but I have not had time to practice recently. One thing I have noticed, is that I really struggle to start the cuts in the exact place I want and at the exact angle I have the DT marked at. I am sure this is user error, but I wonder…other than practice is there any helpful advice that can help a noobie on his way? Is this a symptom of western saws? Since I love to buy tools, and who doesn't??? I have eyeballing some japanese "z" saws : ) thinking they may be easier to use, I will say the pull stroke seems more intuitive to me at this point, based on using my flush cut saws. Any words from the panel?


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## lysdexic

I am right there with you Shane. I have difficulty getting the saw started without digging in or scything astray. My best results come with a thumb nail as a stop and the slightest of pressure.

I also welcome comments by the panel.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop

I'm not an expert, but read a schwarz tutorial on starting saw cuts that centers on 'nibbling' into the cut. It's helped me…

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/chris-schwarz-blog/video-not-sawing-but-nibbling


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## Mosquito

"nibbling" is the way I do it too. I found that if I have a hard time starting it, then I lighten up my grip a little, which forces me to not put any downward pressure, like the Schwarz suggests.


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## thedude50

All my starting woes went away when I spent an hour with Kevin Glenn Drake. And the new start was in the saw it really is the coolest saw I have used to date I find it took me about 16 hours to master this saw and I now know what I am doing with the saw. I like it so much that I am going to buy at least one more of these in the next couple of months http://play-glen-drake.com/v-web/ecommerce/os/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=77&osCsid=2f3cc56f8467193c8305374e6c4900e5

this is the deluxe saw it comes with 3 blades and you can get extra blades for only 40 bucks each I got two of the dovetail blades so i can still have my saw ready to go when my blade is off to get resharpened and they only charge 15 bucks to sharpen the blade cheep for such a complex plate. I love the boiled madrone wood finish. the saw is unlike any I have ever used.


----------



## Bertha

Y'all probably know from another thread that I'm trying to help a friend liquidate some tools.
.
I present this here for your consideration. PM me.
.


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## stan3443

i have that same fold up miterbox .never use it but it is neat


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## Brit

Don't forget to wax those saw plates before the cold weather sets in. Did all mine today and stashed them in a crate to keep the rust off 'em. I doubt I'll need them before next Spring now.


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## ITnerd

Andy, good reminder. I just broke out mine to create some blade guards out of scrap beech, and I might as well wax them while I have them all out. I just picked up a starter set from Ron Bontz, and I blame Mauricio entirely for encouraging the purchase (on the SMC thread).

Here's the family so far:









Dovetail, Carcass, Large Rip from Ron Bontz.
Hybrid from Bad Axe. 
JS7 & JS8 from Bridge City Toolworks.
a pair of Disston D8s, a rip and a crosscut sharpened by Wenzloff & Sons. 
Stanley Rip, Dads old saw - to be sharpened by me over the winter.

I can't thank you enough for your sharpening blogs; I've learned a ton by catching up with them, and they've inspired me to give it a go - starting with dads beatup panel saw.

A closeup of the Bontz set, in African Paduak. Everything is sitting on a 3" think slab of Holly, which is becoming a bench for our front porch - if I can ever get the damn thing flattened.


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## Gshepherd

Brit and ITnerd, those are some sweet looking saws. Can you say SAW FETISH…...


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## planepassion

Andy, I never tire of gazing upon your collection of saws and marveling at the first-rate job you did restoring them. Looking forward to seeing you use them on future projects.


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## mochoa

Chris that's an amazing set of saws! But you can blame that one on me, I don't even know who Ron Bontz is!


----------



## Brit

Chris (ITnerd) - That's a wonderful family you've got going there. I'd never heard of Ron Bontz before you posted his name. I googled him and found lots of photos of the saws he's made. He does some nice work. I'd encourage you to try your hand at saw sharpening. It isn't that difficult really as long as you don't expect perfection when you first start out. It takes a few saws to build the muscle memory when using the files IMO.

Gshepherd - No apologies here for having a saw fetish.  I've spent much of my spare time this year learning about backsaws and how to fix them up and sharpen them and I've enjoyed evey minute of it and I really feel that I have a deeper appreciation of them now.

Brad - I almost got the last saw finished before work got in the way again, but not quite. I will finish the blog next year and write an episode on what I've learnt and also do a comparison. I have some steel all wrapped up waiting for me to have a go at making my own saws. That should be a blast. Not sure if I'll get to do that next year though. I'm going to try and build a portable workbench and a sawbench. I've got loads of ideas for both of those floating around in my head.


----------



## donwilwol

I love those family shots!!!!!!!


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## lysdexic

*I will finish the blog next year*

Next Year!?


----------



## OnlyJustME

Beautiful collection of saws. I have saw envy now.

Andy, be sure to get them ideas down on paper or something so you don't forget them. I've had many a good ideas and all i can remember is that i had a good idea about that thing. lol


----------



## thedude50

Andy I think it is time for you to find a way to have a shop indoors . You are a great craftsman as shown here many times in your tool restoration I would like to see some woodworking projects that you do Like a real bench and the like. I wish you the best in your quest to have a real shop. I know I would not be able to be without A REAL SHOP.


----------



## Brit

It will happen Lance, but I actually like working outside when I can. The squirrels keep me company. Never underestimate a squirrel. )


----------



## Mosquito

*I know I would not be able to be without A REAL SHOP.*

You learn to manage ;-)


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## Johnnyblot

Ah nice- Saw PORN just what the doctor ordered for a very wet & miserable Tuesday. Ho hum.

Public enemy #1 those grey squirrels in this part of the country!!









They make a nice stew /pasty I'm told









Cheers
John


----------



## DaddyZ

Time for a Nap, So Relaxing, No Saws around Here !!!










TreeRats, Pesky little buggers, Nice looking Pie…


----------



## Brit

The greys are arming themselves John. I believe red squirrels only exist now in Thetford forest in Norfolk, Brownsea Island in Dorset and the Isle of Wight.


----------



## donwilwol

My old shop, now a storage area is right behind my office. I kept hearing stuff going on out there. I finally discovered yesterday its squires. Varmits I say!!!


----------



## Johnnyblot

We have Red Squirrels here in Northumberland, in Cumbria and of course Scotland. Unfortunately greys too, they're taking over!


----------



## ITnerd

Andy, the international intelligence community can confirm your findings. Fresh from the NSA Servers:


----------



## lysdexic

Interestingly, where my mom (mum- for Johnny and Andy) lives in Brevard, NC, they have a population of white squirrels. Reportedly a pair escaped from a traveling circus decades ago and continue to thrive and spread. They are not albino because their eyes are brown.


----------



## Dcase

Never had squirrels in the shop but this little guy once lived in my shop for a couple weeks….


















I keep the trash bags from the house in the shop till its trash day and this guy had got into one of the bags without me knowing. One evening I was out working in the shop and I heard the nose of something scratching through the trash. I got up and walked over by where the bags were and the possum just popped his head up and I screamed like a little girl. I was freaked out by it and scared to death being in the shop knowing he was there. I know it wont hurt me but its a mental thing like people being scared of mice or spiders. I got rid of the trash bags the next morning but he stayed there for at least a couple weeks. I just kept the garage door open a crack far enough for him to get out and figured with no food he would just leave on his own. I was to scared to even try to attempt to remove him myself. The next time I saw him out there I grabbed the camera and took the photos. I will say when I got close to take the photos I overcame my fear of possums and I am not as scared of them anymore…


----------



## carguy460

LOL Dan! I once found a possum underneath my BBQ grill on the porch. I yelled, stomped, screamed, whacked him with a broom…he wouldn't leave. I finally donned a leather glove and pulled him out by his tail - plan was to get him off the porch and let him run off. Once he came out from under the grill he contorted into a pretzel and went after my hand that was holing him by the tail - up off the ground, mind you. I dropped him quickly, and the little SOB came at me! I was impressed by his gumption…not impressed enough for him to see the next sunrise though…

Beware - possums can be pissy little creatures!


----------



## AnthonyReed

Haha Jason.

Just to clarify … if you do not grab opossums by the tail they tend to be fairly timid and docile. ;-)


----------



## mochoa




----------



## Dcase

Jason, the thought of picking a possum up by its tail with or with out a glove sends chills through my body. I overcame my fear enough to not scream like a girl when I see one but no way would I pick one up..


----------



## OnlyJustME

Them possum be nasty little creatures. I think the whole play dead thing is a myth. I've never seen one roll over and play dead when approached. They always act like they are gonna scratch your eyes out and rip out your jugular just as soon as you blink. 
Never ate one but i imagine even if they taste like dung they would taste just as good the second day. lol


----------



## Brit

An old girlfriend of mine once tried to pick up an injured squirrel that her cat had had a go at. I told her not to because I figured any animal that eats nuts and runs up vertical trees at break neck speed is not to be messed with. Normally squirrels just run away when you get close, but this one couldn't and it bit chunk of flesh out of her finger in one bite. If they ever grow as big as us, we're doomed!


----------



## ksSlim

possums and gators are some of the few species left that have "prehistoric" teeth. That means they have teeth in their jaws like the dinos did. Squirrels on the other hand, are rats that still have hair on their tails and climb better than their cousins, the rats. Not many folks go to the park and toss "treats" to rats.


----------



## ShaneA

Yep, fluffy tailed tree rats. A basic PITA. Especially when stealing my tomatoes…


----------



## donwilwol

.22 targets


----------



## mochoa

Squirls are good eatin'. they are rodents but they eat clean food, nuts and stuff. We used to go squirl hunting in Louisiana, good time, first weekend of October, beautiful fall weather.


----------



## terryR

Around here squirrels are definitely .22 targets! 

Just plop 'em the freezer overnight…the hide comes right off…easy…fill a 5 gallon bucket with lime and water and soak a few days…staple them all flat for drying…make great lil pieces of rawhide!

..essentially free…


----------



## Johnnyblot

*Andy said*- ....The squirrels keep me company. Never underestimate a squirrel. )

I hope you're proud of yourself Andy… Only on *Lumberjocks *could a comment on Squirrels cause so much fuss- Lol

*Carry on chaps!*










John


----------



## Brit

What ho John! Chocks away old bean.

Feeling guilty now about hijacking the thread, so here's some photos of some saws.


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## ITnerd

ooooOooohh. Lee Valleys new saw sharpening file set ... and with introductory pricing? Mine!

Only a few more days to get yours with the $10 discount.


----------



## lysdexic

I never tire of gazing upon your saws Andy.


----------



## thedude50

Chris your going to find you wont use most of those files I buy nos on American made Nichols files in the right sizes for the saws you own it is a better deal IMHO


----------



## Brit

I think the quality and availability of saw files is the single biggest hindrance to learning to sharpen and maintain your own saws. To the best of my knowledge, unless you are lucky enough to come by some new old stock files that have been sitting on a forgotten shelf of an old hardware store, saw files are only manufactured today by the following companies.


Bahco
Nicholson
Vallorbe
Grobet

Bahco files are good when you get one that has been properly hardened, but I have had several where the edges either crumble away or do not have a nice radiused corner and this ultimately affects the shape of the tooth gullets and your ability to control the file and get it to cut where you want it to.

Nicholson files were historically very good quality and value for money, but nowadays they are made in Mexico and the quality is nowhere near as good as it was when they were made in America. The company moved the production to save cost, but the price stayed the same while the quality took a dive. The edges all too often crumble away after just a few strokes.

I have yet to try the Vallorbe and Grobet files, but I suspect they are made to a higher, more consistent quality than the Bahco and Nicholson files available today.

I guess in some respects we should consider ourselves lucky that anyone is still making saw files in a world full of disposable hard point saws, but for the hobbyist woodworker who is only buying one or two files of a particular size at a time, it is very frustrating when a new file doesn't perform well and you have to wait for a replacement to arrive before you can finish the job.

Saw files are disposable items and don't last forever, particularly if you are using them to file new teeth rather than just to touch up existing teeth, but please DON'T accept this drop in quality when you get a bad file. Keep complaining until they do something about it. If we don't, future generations might never get to experience the kind of results that can be achieved with a good quality, properly hardened file.


----------



## SamuelP

Andy - Magners is the best. I have fond memories of Magners in N. Ireland/Scotland and Bulmers in Ireland. I find it once in a while over here and when I do I am happy until it is gone.


----------



## SamuelP

Andy, have you heard anything about those Lee Valley files? Is that a good price?


----------



## Brit

Sam - I think that is an excellent price, even without the discount, especially since they are made by Grobet. I would pick up the 8" mill file and the needle file they are offering too.

I know what Lance is saying in his response to Chris (ITnerd) about not getting to use all of them, but in my case I did get to use all of them. I sharpen rip and hand saws of various TPIs as well as tenon, sash, carcase and dovetail saws, so I've gotten to use all the sizes. If you only intend to sharpen backsaws and not rip and handsaws, then it is probably best to just buy the sizes you need for your particular backsaws.

Bear in mind that you will also need a few file handles.


----------



## RGtools

If my memory serves me, I have a few Grobet (LN sells them) and they are much better. I was not super pleased with the LN handles they sell though. The smallest one they sell does not even fit the smallest file as they suggest. $1.99 Schrooz-on for me.

I need to post pics of the Stanley 42 and the miter box I just got…very gloat-worthy on both counts.


----------



## Brit

Following on from our discussions on the Lee Valley packet of Grobet saw files, you may want to hear what Paul Sellers says about them on his blog.

http://paulsellers.com/2012/10/grobet-answers-this-saw-filers-quest/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+paul-sellers-blog+%28Paul+Sellers%27+Blog%29


----------



## ksSlim

check out this guy's project.
http://lumberjocks.com/projects/73418


----------



## Mosquito

I made a saw vise this evening… Hope to get a few of my old saw restores sharpened up and posted later. But for now, here we go


----------



## Brit

Good to see another Workmate saw sharpener Mos. Nice shavings too.


----------



## donwilwol

a workmate accessory. So cool.


----------



## Mosquito

yeah… I need to clean up a little lol It's to the point where if I drop something or knock it off the workmate, there's a chance I have to dig around in the shavings to find it lol I nearly lost a drill bit the other day…


----------



## OnlyJustME

Hope you don't smoke in that tinder box. lol


----------



## Mosquito

I don't smoke anywhere


----------



## dbray45

Here is a question, one that Andy could answer easily -

I was given an old Distton panel rip saw, the handle was replaced with a handmade one and it looks like they cut the blade groove with a table saw. I want to make a new handle, what is the best way to cut the groove or notch for the blade?

Thanks


----------



## terryR

David, Andy is certainly the master and will have a better answer, but I have made several saw totes using a hacksaw with new blade to cut that slot. It is a challenge, so I just go slow. photos here.

The saw plate needs to fit tightly in that slot, too.

Good luck,


----------



## Brit

Dave - How old is the saw? Do you by any chance know the model number? Is it possible to post any pictures of it? Unless it is really old, it is likely that Disston cut the slot with a circular saw blade too. To provide the best advice, it would be useful to see the plate removed from the handle to see the shape of the handle end of the plate, but even a picture of the assembled saw would help.

Since I don't have the machine or the tooling to do it the way they did, I would use the saw plate that is going to be fitted to the handle but remove any set from the teeth first. The thickness of the plate along the toothline is the same as the thickness of the plate where it slots in the handle, even if the plate is taper-ground. If you don't want to remove the set from the existing teeth, you may well have another saw that can cut the required slot. Try all your backsaws or japanese saws. They will likely have a thinner plate than your panel saw, so even though the teeth have some set, the resulting kerf might be the right size for your panel saw. Cut a slot with each of your saws in some scrap wood and of the kerfs are a good fit with plate of your panel saw. As Terry says, it should be a tight fit. Don't make the mistake of thinking that you can compensate for a loose fit by over-tightening the saw nuts as that won't work. The saw will probably end up rattling.


----------



## dbray45

Thanks Terry, this looks to be a challenge.

Andy - I don't have any pictures will try to get some and post Wednesday. The tote is obviously a replacement, crudely made, uses 5 of the 6 holes, but - it is tight and not uncomfortable, just looks real bad. Whoever made it took a really good shot at.

My dentist was cleaning out his garage and gave me a bunch of his father's tools - a few saws, hand drill, brace and bits, some Swan chisels, a couple of gouges, and some old hacksaws. All are in need of cleaning up. It was his way of saying thanks for my making a drawer for an old candle table stand that he has.


----------



## terryR

I've been thinking about what you said, Andy, about how Disston used a circular saw to create the slot needed for some saw plates…

Found these TENRYU thin kerf saw blades intended for sliding miter saws…and I have a miter saw…

...Has anyone here used such a tool with jigs to cut out the slot for a saw? I'm intrigued because of the D8 handle I have and want to replace. Of course, that $100 blade might just keep me from trying…but a miter saw is the only way I can figure that slot out. Well, without a butt load of small chisel work, that is…


----------



## dbray45

Looked at the blades, 1/8" blade is .125 these are .110 - not much thinner - I would not use a power miter saw to cut a handle, that would be seriously dangerous.

Andy -

pictures of the saw- Any input is greatly appreciated.














































If anyone has the right tote, let me know. Maybe we can work something out.

Many thanks


----------



## thedude50

David, can you show the whole plate with the tote off please. It will help identify the saw. I may have a tote but I will need more photos to match it up.


----------



## Brit

David it is hard to tell exactly what model it is from the photos, but I suspect it is a D8. If so, it will have a handle like this one.










If you look carefully at the plate in your last image, there is a ghost outline left by the original handle. I've crudely drawn it back in in the photo below. By the way the head of the medallion should be on the other side of the handle and moved to the hole above. They probably just put it there because they didn't have enough bolts. The good news is that they are common saws and you should be able to get the bolts and even a handle from another flea market saw unless someone on this thread can help you out.










If you do want to make a handle and since you have a rip saw, you might like to make a thumbhole handle. If so, Mike Wenzloff has a pattern you can save, print out and use.










When printing it out, print it 'Actual size' with the page orientation set to 'Landscape'.

It should come out like the one shown below.


----------



## Brit

I should have added that thumb hole handles are for right-handed people. If you are left-handed, I wouldn't bother with a thumb hole handle personally.


----------



## ksSlim

Nice pics, Thanks Andy!


----------



## terryR

Yep, D8 as I suspected…same problem I have here. I 'd love to make a replacement handle for mine…but how?

Table saw with thin kerf blade? ideas anyone?


----------



## Brit

Ah yes Terry, the 'I've bitten off more than I can chew conundrum'. ) I know it well.

To buy the circular saw blades for one saw would be very expensive. Personally, I would design my own handle so that I could cut the kerf by hand with a saw. Don't worry about the top of the D8 handle being closed as it will still work with a kerf through it. When you think about it, the only thing you should respect is the hang angle and vertical placement of the grip. There is nothing to say that you can't move the grip back a bit though to enable you to cut the kerf with a backsaw. The only other constant is the position of the holes in the plate. The rest is up for grabs and I can't wait to see what you guys come up with.


----------



## terryR

Thanks, Andy, for the tips…

Yeah, replacing the D8 handle is MUCH more involved than I first thought when I bid for the sucker on fleaBay! 

Still, I'd love to add some Apple to my D8…AND because the task is so difficult…I really want to keep the saw plate enclosed. Just like the factory…

Maybe I'll buy the $100 circular saw blade and start making D8 tote replacements for $40 each?

Maybe I'll keep the project on the back burner until….......


----------



## Brit

...or maybe your best bet would be to make the handle in two halves and route out the kerf, then glue it together. and start shaping. That is probably your best bet. You'll need to experiment a bit to get the right depth on each half of the handle, but it would be a lot cheaper than messing around with circular saw blades. Just a thought.


----------



## terryR

...just an excellent thought…that's why I love ya!
You da' man, Andy!


----------



## ksSlim

Why did it take them so long to find a high tech solution to an old challenge?
I wouldn't bet that they are the first.
Best to discover the unkown from the known.

"Those who ignore history are bound to repeat it" anon


----------



## carguy460

Man, I love this thread…

Anyone feel up to offering an opinion? I've got 12 (maybe 13) hand/panel saws that were my grandpas. I've posted pics on this thread quite awhile ago. Out of all the saws I inherited, none were a backsaw. Naturally, the amateur woodworker in me tells me that I need a Dovetail saw and a Carcass saw, or something similar to the pair (rip and crosscut, I really don't care what they are called). I've been searching for about a year for some decent vintage ones that I can revive, but I haven't found one at the flea markets and antique stores.

My question - in your expert opinions, should I go the LN route and drop $200 or so on new backsaws, or should I wait it out and try and find some old disstons? Honestly I'm tired of waiting, but I really love the vintage stuff…I'm scared to buy off Ebay because I cant hold the product before purchase, and last I checked Don W wasn't selling any vintage backsaws…

Any thoughts on this new vs old thing? I don't want to start a fight, just need some help making my decision…


----------



## donwilwol

Jason, I don't resell back saws because I can't sharpen to save my butt.

Try Joe at http://www.secondchancesawworks.com/ or Matt at http://thesawblog.com/

Joe is active on this thread and has gotten rave reviews. Matt does excellent work as well.


----------



## donwilwol

and leach has a few posted this month as well, http://www.supertool.com/forsale/novem2012.html


----------



## carguy460

Good resources, Don! Thank you!

I fear that buying from Leach would mean I would need to learn to sharpen…13 saws in my "till" and I'm frozen by fear to take a file to any of them…

It looks like Matt and Joe would be able to hook me up with a saw that is ready to use…as would LN…


----------



## donwilwol

you could sent a few at a time to Joe to sharpen. I should have qualified my statement. If its just a simple sharpening, its pretty easy. Its the recutting that gets me.


----------



## lysdexic

Jason,

I have sent a saw to Matt with great results. However, that is before I know of Joe. I am planning a Tyzack 14" back saw restore and plan on sending it to Joe for sharpening. Don't tell him though.


----------



## need2boat

Hey Guys,

Got the power back yesterday in Jersey City NJ and feel like things are getting back to normal! I had the chance to file by window light which was fun except the fact we only get good light in the building this time of year for about 3 hours. That said my shop is on my parents property and that part of Jersey didn't get the hit I did in the North. My hats off to the power line guys they came from all over the US and still working no stop to get things back up and running.

*David* if you would rather re-drill the saw plate then make the handle I have a number of old handles with or without hardware. I'm sure I have both a style with and without thumb holes. If you email me I can take a look. Most often I find you will get 2 or 3 of the holes to line up but at least one of them will need to be redrilled.

*Jason* and all I really appreciate all the help and business I've gotten from the list. I do my best to keep any advertising or stuff like that off the thread but if you have question or need info on sending something just let me know and I'd be happy to help out. my turnaround is about 2 weeks unless your west cost then it's a little longer for the shipping.









what to do when you have no power. Move into the hallway and file by daylight!

Andy please note that's my workmate. ;-) I first used this setup for a demo at a local woodworking club. It's a little higher then my normal setup but I find if I put a pillow behind my computer chair it works fine. It's about the only time my posture is correct.


----------



## thedude50

I have done business with both Matt and Joe both are great guys and i will continue to support both of them.


----------



## terryR

Welcome, back, Joe…glad you made it through the storms!

Hey, what's in that blue tupperware to the left of your bench? Are those boxes of files? my goodness…if so, that looks like an expensive investment!


----------



## need2boat

Hey Terry,

Yes that's a box of, boxes of files. ;-) Anyone who says they're getting rich filing saws is sure got a leg up on me. Last year there was a real shortage of files in the US and I made the investment to keep a few months supply on hand. Keep in mind i don't tend to buy vintage files for most sizes except 4" double extra slim and needle files. I find the vintage files work great and do last slightly longer but supplies can be iffy and spotty at best since you're buying out old inventory.

Joe


----------



## exelectrician

Unashamedly saw gloat…... got these two Atkins saws on a ebay buy-it-now $9.50 + shipping for both!










I added a little definition to the handle on the one I have started to restore.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Gents, I'm requesting input on today's purchase: A Warranted Superior saw, very original. I'm seeing remnants of a decal/label, and believe it's an original edge.



















There's a 10 for tpi, over a diamond.










In the center of this pic is clearly some kind of etch, but I cant read enough due to the rust.










And rust is the challenge. There's some 'bluing' evident. What's the beat cleanup method to preserve markings?










Any insight is appreciated.


----------



## Brit

Smitty - There seems to be some deep pitting on the plate from looking at the photos. That being the case, my first priority would be to get rid of the rust by whatever method you like. If any markings remain, it would be a bonus, but the rust has to go.

Make it shiny Smitty. You know you want to. )


----------



## Brit

exelectircian - Nice gloat. They should serve you well.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

I knew you'd answer 'shine,' Andy…. . It's in ER as of this afternoon, we'll see how that goes!


----------



## exelectrician

Thanks Brit. When they are sharpened and handles complete I will showcase them.


----------



## Bertha

All I've got.


----------



## DanKrager

Hi Gents. 
In looking over my shops resources for hand work, I realized that I am short on hand saws. I have a pair of nice back saws for joinery, a Ryobi for general hand sawing, a couple nice jewelers fret saw frames, a coping saw frame (cheapie but works reliably), my Dad's old handsaw that I pretty much ruined trying to get the rust off when I was a kid and didn't know any better, and a newer cheap Stanley carpenters hand saw complete with plastic handle.

Question: If I were to buy some good quality hand saws for cross cutting and ripping, what would you recommend? New or used? What TPI for each?

I've been looking at some ebay saws and I can see a number stamped at the heel of the blade under the handle. What does that number mean?

Thanks for your input.
DanK


----------



## Bertha

Dan, I'm right there with you. I'm going to be watching the replies hard! Thanks for asking this.


----------



## ksSlim

Several of the old Distons and Atkins at my place, those that are stamped, the number represents the PPI (points per inch). I don't know if they were stamped by the manufacturer or possibly by a sharpening service.


----------



## exelectrician

I agree with ksSlim the one in the pic with the finished handle is 8 points per inch and has an 8 stamped on the blade the other has no stamp but is 10 points per inch. So I figure it must have been the sharpening service that did the stamp.


----------



## DanKrager

I found this information on a seller's description:
IF YOU ARE SERIOUS ABOUT WORKING WITH HAND TOOLS …... THE THREE CONFIGURATIONS OF SAWS ….. THAT YOU SHOULD NOT BE WITHOUT, ARE: 
1) A VERSATILE 26" 7, 8 OR 9 POINT CROSSCUT 
2) A 26 (OR 28) INCH 5 OR 5 1/2 POINT VERSATILE RIPPER AND ….
3) A 26 INCH 10, 11 OR 12 POINT FINE FINISH CROSSCUT SAW….. A SHORTER "PANEL" SAW IN THIS CONFIGURATION COULD BE SUBSTITUTED, AGAIN …. DEPENDING ON YOUR SPECIFIC NEEDS.
So, lacking further input, I guess that"s what I'll be looking for.
DanK


----------



## DanKrager

I read the rest of this sellers "blah blah blah" text and it is an educational text book of saw sharpening information, well worth the reading.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/FULL-WIDE-1917-28-DISSTON-D-8-26-7PT-CROSSCUT-SAW-HAND-SHARPENED-/200844671826?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2ec3467b52

this is an outstandingly nice saw and should be for the price.
DanK


----------



## DanKrager

Here is another one of those metal plate on handle mystery saws…
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ANTIQUE-HAND-SAW-WITH-HANDLE-NOTCH-GREAT-PATINA-NICE-HANDLE-/160920808022?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2577a0aa56
DanK


----------



## Bertha

Great references, Dan! Thanks!


----------



## lysdexic

DanK,

Sorry you are having a conversation with yourself. I think your plan is spot on. Here is a blog entry I did some time ago to help me organize the list of tool from the Anarchist Toll Chest by The Schwarz. FWIW.

I updated the list to reflect where I stand right now. I hope this helps.

*Saws*

Coping Saw - I have a Sandvic for a long time but replaced the blade with an Olson 18 PPI blade
Flush cut saw - the single sided Veritas as recommended
Panel Rip Saw - obtained a 4 ½ ppi E.C. Atkins at an estate sale. Needs restoration. Also, ordered a D-8 with thumb hole from Bad Axe. Also, two 5 PPI thumbhole Disston D-8s
Panel X-cut Saw - Refurbed a old Disston D-8 at 8 ppi. After I cleaned it up I sent it to Matt Cianci for sharpening
Tenon Saw - 14" Tyzack rip saw. Purchased from the tool store above The Woodwright's school. I love this saw but needs restoration.
Carcase saw -12" Carcase x-cut saw from Bad Axe tool works. Mesquite handle. Beautiful, Tooks 7 months to ship.
Dovetail - bought the Veritas dovetail saw and sold it to Shane. Bought a LN progressive pitch DT saw to replace it.


----------



## shampeon

Can we talk a bit about why used dovetail saws are so expensive? I've been looking for one on eBay, and even unrestored ones routinely end up going for more than a new Veritas saw.

I'm trying to only buy used tools unless I have to, but I'm thinking the vintage market here isn't cost effective.


----------



## bandit571

Used Dovetails saws expensive???









My $3 saw, after a very good clean up.

I currently have another one of those WS saws with a Plywood tote. A might rusty, but it is straight, and still nice and sharp, cost me a whopping $1, imagine that!

Won't be going downtown for a saw, though. All five handsaws at one store were $20 EACH! I wouldn't even give them $10 for the whole set. Same place that has a $40 block plane, and…..a.. $60 #26 Trans plane??? Do have a Stanley/HK Porter #10 in my shop. Nice little coping saw, picked it up for a dollar bill. May have to take a few pictures of the rest of the group of saws I have.









A "Hybrid Handsaw" in a 20" length, used as a crosscut panel saw…









My one dollar coping saw, by Disston/HK Porter.


----------



## shampeon

Guess I have to be more specific. Western-style, non-gents saw dovetail saws are the kind I'm talking about. With a proper handle. Like this:


----------



## lysdexic

Ian,

I have no idea why vintage DT saws are so expensive but they are. I buy vintage when I can. However, if new is OBJECTIVELY better I buy new. If they perform the same and vintage is about the same price as new, I buy new. I will probably buy a vintage DT saw at some point in the future.


----------



## DanKrager

I was thinking it was this forum where someone asked about a saw he recently obtained that had a metal plate on the handle. He was wondering about the maker. On another forum, a similar picture showed up with the makers name listed. The picture in this link showed a Harvey Peace no. 110.
http://lumberjocks.com/topics/35888#reply-525382
DanK


----------



## Brit

*Dan Kruger* - The information you posted is pretty much what I would have recommended. By the way, the number stamped on the heel of the saw refers to the number of points per inch that the saw had when it was sold by the manufacturer. When buying old saws though, it pays to remember that any saw could have been re-toothed to a different PPI by a previous owner. For people who don't know how to count the number of points per inch, this number can be misleading (e.g a 6 can look like a 9 depending on how you are holding the saw). To read the number correctly, the heel of the saw (handle end) should be towards your body and the toe pointing away from you. If you are buying a saw secondhand at a yard sale, it is a good idea to take a 6" rule with you so that you can check the PPI for yourself.

English saws were specified by 'teeth per inch' (TPI) and American saws were specified by 'points per inch' (PPI). They are not the same thing. I'll let Matt Cianci explain the difference.

In short, just remember that TPI + 1 = PPI or PPI - 1 = TPI.

Hope that helps. I'm writing a blog series on restoring and sharpening saws which you might find useful. It mostly concentrates on backsaws, but there are three handsaws in there too.

*Shampeon* - It is simply down to supply and demand. Even power tool woodworkers probably own a dovetail saw or two, so when a decent one comes up, everyone jumps on it. The fact that the saw has been restored and sharpened has little bearing on the price in my experience. Some people are even put off by that, because they don't think anyone else could restore it as well as they could.

I managed to snag a nice 8" Spear & Jackson dovetail saw not so long ago. Her it is after I restored and sharpended it.


----------



## bandit571

The original paint job on this handle included a "Bugle', and about two lines of word, ON the handle.









Haven't found any etch on this old snaggle-toothed plate, either…









Just clean it up, shine some metal, and add some Krylon RED paint…









Just a fancy tool-box saw….


----------



## bandit571

While this may be a Hand saw thread, I thought i would share this little "Gem' ( a whole $5)









Not the box. It is what is inside this old green box that counts for the $5…









Seemed to be a metal saw made by the OLD Skil saw people….









It does have a groovy bottom to it…









an angle finder of sorts…









and a 6" blade. Wasn't "ready-to-run" out of the box, though. Someone long ago placed a two prong plug on the end of the cord. Cord was a three wire sort of thing, and they hooked things up a might strange. Ground wire ( the GREEN one) came out of the saw and became the "HOT" lead?? Cut the old plug off…









and installed a more correct three prong plug on the end of the (now) 48" long cord. Saw works like a charm now. Now the task at hand is to find a 6" saw blade with the right diamond knockout to "upgrade" this into a nice trim saw.

Maybe re-paint the box????


----------



## thedude50

Ian, there is nothing "improper" about a gents saw tote. You may prefer a tote that registers in your hand but I have a gents saw that will blow away almost any saw made today. While it is not the traditional tote for a gents saw it is a round tote and it is the best saw I own. It is made by Glen Drake tools. It has design improvements that make it very accurate and easy to use.

I own 25 dovetail saws I have a huge addiction to dovetail saws and I buy them if they are good. You compared these to the veritas saw which is a cheep saw as far as selling price goes. I don't feel dovetail saws are overpriced wither vintage or new designs like the Glen Drake saw. Lie Nielsen, Veritas or any of the boutique saws made today.

Maybe you should buy the kit from Gramercy tools if you want a cheep saw that cuts well. They are under 100 dollars and are worth the price just like everything else in this down market. Enjoy these cheep prices while they last because we are about to see big time inflation and you think saws are pricy now just wait for the inflated price.


----------



## Brit

As you say Lance, it is just personal preference. What I like about tool makers like Glen Drake is that they're not afraid to push the boundaries of what is commonly acceptable. If it wasn't for toolmakers with that kind of attitude in the 19th century, many of the tool designs that we think of as 'acceptable' today would probably not have come to fruition. IMO evolution in design is to be encouraged when it is driven by a desire to improve on function, comfort and quality.


----------



## terryR

Well, I am trying to get a few half-finished projects completed…this one has been on the table for a long time! Although, I'll blame that on the fence. 

Here is my Disston No.16 finally restored…









He was a complete rust bucket when I obtained him as you can tell from all the pitting left in the plate. I also suspect someone cut off an inch of the toe and re-filed the nib because it's in such great shape for 100 years old! All that remains of the etch is "Dissto" and a small amount of the emblem below.

Original handle was toast…made from Beech…looked like it had been hanging next to a dart board for many years! "Hey, Dude, you hit the old rusty saw again! Subtract 10 points!" Sad…but probably funny to a lot of folks.

Anyhow, I bought the saw for the the steel and since the handle was trash…that gave me an excuse to make a new tote!  I'm an apprentice in training, ya know?

I tried my best to copy the old tote as closely as possibly in every respect…beech…stained dark as the original appeared…a few rasp marks left here and there…and even the clip was formed off-square from either face, just as the original. Hey, these totes were made by real people back in 1907 (plus or minus 10). Shellac and wax for a finish.

This 16 is filed rip at 8ppi, and still fairly sharp. But, I think I'm sending this one to Joe for fresh teeth…


----------



## donwilwol

Extremely nice job Terry. Nice to see it all andy'ed up.


----------



## AnthonyReed

+1 Don.

Terry's Andification skills are strong.

Well done Terry!


----------



## Brit

Terry - That's a gorgeous tote, Henry Disston himself would be proud of you. In fact, he'd probably have offered you a job on the spot.


----------



## chrisstef

Terry that tote is f'n fantastic. You should be proud of that, i wouldnt be able to tell the difference between yours and an original. Well friggin done bro.


----------



## DanKrager

Thanks for the additional information Brit. Your saw restorations are simply inspirational. I'll get my hand at it with three saws I just purchased inexpensively. Two are Disston and the other unknown, but they are all pretty rough and all need handles. The blade on one looks like surface rust mostly, but I'll see when I get them. One is a D7 and the other a D8. The third is a 42" forestry one man cross cut with almost new length Tuttle teeth (I'm guessing).
And I agree that the Andifications are great! Hope mine are half as good!
DanK


----------



## terryR

Thanks, all! Heck, I'd love to work for Bad Axe Saws, or someone as nice…But, I bet my work is too slow to compete in today's market place.


----------



## lysdexic

Terry, like I have said before, you have talent, sir.


----------



## thedude50

*"Hey, Dude, you hit the old rusty saw again! Subtract 10 points!" *

Sorry Terry I am not following you on this I have tons of vintage saws and for the most part think they are the better made saw. So I reject your penalty unless you can tell me where I dissed a rusty old saw.


----------



## thedude50

BTW great tote terry


----------



## chrisstef

Thedude, he was saying dude in no specific terms i believe. Kinda like "dude, your breath sticks."


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Dude, you're not the only dude.


----------



## lysdexic

That sure is some hot stanky breath if it sticks.


----------



## terryR

Sorry, Lance, I didn't mean you..bud. Add those points back to your total score…

My best friend IRL calls everyone dude, so sometimes it just sticks in me head…like, "Dude, your fly is open."


----------



## thedude50

Thanks terry, I never dis rusty gold even though i like new tools too.


----------



## OnlyJustME

Awesome job Terry. Looks original to me. Fess up. You took it off another saw didn't you? lol


----------



## shampeon

Lance, I've got nothing against gents saws, exactly, but the pivot point is a little high for me. It just feels like I have more control with a standard tote. My observation is that panel and tenon saws command much less of a premium, both new and used, compared to vertical tote dovetail saws. Given the prices for eBay dovetail saws, the Veritas saws are a bargain.

That said, I bought an early Disston dovetail saw from Brass City Records that I'll restore.


----------



## WhoMe

Ok guys, I finally took some pictures of my saws that I inherited. I didn't get many of the details like TPI or length dimensions. Sorry.

#1 - A Jackson Warranted saw, I think it is a dovetail saw, can anyone confirm? 
This one I cleaned up the blade, sanded the tote and finished with clear shellac. The bottom of the tote had been cut off so I tried to smooth out the flat spot.









#2 -After trying my best at Photoshop, It looks like it is a Simonds or Symonds No. 15 Wand Hand Saw. I have done nothing to this one and it is exactly like i got it. 








Hopefully you can see the etch well. 









#3 - An older Disston 10tpi. Havent touched this one either. Love the work on the handle. 








It has an etch but it was really faint.
#4 - Here is a Atkins Perfection #65, 12 tpi. Again, no restoration yet.








And here is a shot of the etch. What I think is cool about this one is the secondary etch stating it was made for Pasadena Hardware (California). 








Sorry, this one didn't come out as well.


----------



## thedude50

I would like to buy the Pasadena saw if it is for sale pm me a asking price ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Excellent Disston, and other, saws! My family's tooling was very pedestrian compared to the quality you're showing. Nice!!


----------



## donwilwol

wow, sweet set of saws Whome. I don't have any with the etch that vivid.


----------



## WhoMe

Sorry, Lance, all these saws have family sentimental value so I am going to keep them. 
All these saws and other tools that were in that tool box I inherited. It was from the wife's grandfather who she was close to. We also have a wonderful aromatic cedar chest with hand made copper straps that he made about 50 years ago. 
He seemed to do a lot of hand tool wood work many years ago. 
Pic of tool box again without the planes. 









These saws are the best 2 out of 3 that were in the toolbox. The other Disston seems much newer with a plain handle and the blade is more rusted with no visible etch.
I think I just lucked out on these as the saws seem to be in the best shape of the tools. The planes showed their age and all the chisels were pretty much beaters but there were some good names out of them.
The small saw came from the wife's father. I still don know if it is a dovetail, tenon or backsaw. But that one is the only one I rehabbed at this point.
Don, as far as the etchings, They look great on the saws but didn't turn out in photos well without some photoshop to bring them out. 
One of these days, I will pull them back out of the box, do some minor cleaning, sharpen them and use them lightly.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

"... dovetail, tenon or backsaw… "

Tenon saws are close to 14" in length, I think, and typically have 10 to 13 teeth per inch. Dovetail saws have 14 to18, are shorter, and have a thinner sawplate besides a more shallow cut depth. I'd guess it's a dovetail saw.

Others can now correct me.


----------



## need2boat

Hey Terry,

That's a really nice job on the saw. Sure looks like a No 7 to me.

What makes you think it's a "New 16"

JFF


----------



## lysdexic

n2b,

Just perusing your website the other day. I'd love to have gotten my hands on that Harvey Peace Vulcan. Very cool.


----------



## Mosquito

that one does look pretty sweet Scott.


----------



## thedude50

I am glad I was not the only one who thought it was a 7 It looks exactly like all my no7s. They are my favorite saws of all. I know I know a 12 is supposed to be the cats meow but I like 7s and 8s best.


----------



## terryR

Wow…I dunno how I mislabeled a saw…You guys are correct! The restore I posted is indeed an old Disston No.7.

Medallion says 1897-1917.

I'll have to measure the length today…I'm pretty sure 'bobbed' the toe…


----------



## need2boat

Scottyb,

not sure if you check out my recent post but I was out in OH and got the chance to see two really, really nice tool collections and took some picture. The guy I stayed with Mike stemple I've been emailing with for a year so and it was really great talking with him. His research into early American saws is second to none and will be part of the updated book on American Saw makers that's in the works.

The other collection I got to see was more for you plane guy, and man was it a collection. It was owned by a member of the Ohio tools tool and one of the largest in the US of wood plans. Some values over 25K. It was really amazing to see up close the workmanship and all the inlays and such. He also had one hell of a saw collection and I really only had the time to take a few pictures. One of a, one of a kind No 14.

Terry, 
No worries on the No 7, Like Lance said the No 7 is a hell of a saw. The New 16, note Disston didn't etch it No 16 it's New 16. are nice saws but I find most of the ones I've owned the plates didn't hold up as nice. Maybe the extra spring still had something to do with it.

Most 26 and 24 saws were etched in the same location on the blade so if it were cut down provided it was done well it's very hard to tell as the etch would be center about the same.

Joe


----------



## Dcase

Joe, I have talked with Mike Stemple before and I even sold him a rare saw that I found earlier this year. I was given his contact info from another saw collector I know and was told Mike was the guy to go to for questions on the vintage saws. I had found this really old saw that I could not find any info on so I sent Mike some pictures and he knew all about the saw maker and made me a nice offer on it. I have contacted him a few times with saw questions and he has always given me very good information. He knows his saws. Very nice guy. I have not met him personally but he only lives a couple hours from me.


----------



## GMatheson

I picked up this saw tonight along with a few D-8s and was wondering if anyone knows anything about Elsworth saws.


----------



## lysdexic

GMath - What I know of Elsworth saws is that they were only manufactured for a short time. Although it says Sheffield on the etch they were fabricated in a hamlet nearby called Morburg. The owner of the plant went a little crazy and was latter institutionalized for schizophrenia. There were accusations that the propeller actually represented the abbreviated wings of the stingy, stabbing insect or the devil. Some even accused the owner Mr. S. Elsworth of being a little possessed, trying to conjure slicing daemons into the fires of his foundry so that his steel would be sharper and more enticing than the other local manufactures. In some ways, having an Elsworth saw is synonymous to making a deal with Lucifer.

Fortunately for you, I know of a monastery nearby who not only raises and trains German Shepherd dogs but also performs exorcisms upon the Elsworth tools that arose from those hellish fires. I will PM you with my address so that you can rid yourself of such darkness.


----------



## chrisstef

^ Thats why he's OG ScottyB …. original gangsta.


----------



## Gshepherd

And well trained they are….


----------



## lysdexic

Joe,

I read through your blog entries on those two collections. That is exactly why I will never become a collector…...those guys already have all the tools.


----------



## GMatheson

I'm gonna have nightmares now. Thanks Scotty


----------



## lysdexic

GMath - there is no reason for you to suffer, sir. I can help ;^)


----------



## Gshepherd

GM- It would be best to take Scotty's advise….. These Monks can rid you of any santanic curse…...


----------



## AnthonyReed

I am not sure which self-prescribed therapy is going on in North Carolina but the results are undeniably solid. I wholeheartedly approve.


----------



## Bertha

Tony+1.


----------



## Brit

Al & Scott - You would have been proud of me tonight guys. I'm staying at a hotel in Lincolns Inn Fields in London just across the road from the Royal College of Surgeons. I went to visit the Hunterian Museum after work tonight and tried my hand at suturing in an 'open surgery' they had going on.










If you ever get the chance to visit the museum (Holborn tube station on the Central line), it is a fascinating place and admission is free. Hundreds of specimen jars, the history of surgery techniques, the tools used, etc. I was reading one exhibit about some guy who could amputate a limb in 28 seconds. A slit here, another one there, saw through the bone and bandage it up. They had some gorgeous saws too and it got me wondering if the fact that surgeons used similar saws is the reason they are called carcase saws. I dunno. Anyhow it was a nice way to kill a couple of hours.


----------



## terryR

carcass saw? huh?


----------



## Brit

You know Terry, that's another thing I've wondered about. Why do some people say carcass and others say carcase?


----------



## donwilwol

I have a meat saw! Not the same though .


----------



## terryR

Andy, I think this is a carcase saw…









and this is a carcass saw…









just sayin'


----------



## chrisstef

Excellent Terry!


----------



## Brit

Mmmmm???

Have you ever noticed that TFWW and Bad Axe call their saws carcase saws, but LN, Veritas, Wenzloff and Winsor call their saws carcass saws.

Strange but true.


----------



## donwilwol

Terry, I've got 2 Husky. They do nice work, but don't cut dovetails worth a dam. As for carcase versus carcass…..I got nothin!!


----------



## thedude50

Joe I lost your address I need it to ship you two Miter Saws.


----------



## Brit

Lance - You can find Joe's address on his website Secondchancesawworks.com at the bottom of the Saw Sharpening and Restoration Rates page, but here it is anyway.

Joe Federici 
Second Chance Saw Works
P.O. Box 207, Radio City Station, NY, NY 10101-0207


----------



## terryR

Lance, I need your snail mail for the mallet swap..PM me…


----------



## OnlyJustME

I just Killed my Stihl on a very old and big apple tree. The base of the tree was about 28" wide. Saw quit in the middle of cutting like it ran out of gas but still plenty in there and now it won't start again. Add one more thing to the long list of have to fix around here.


----------



## Mosquito

I sharpened up the saw I got from Smitty… Not up to Andy's standards, I'm sure, but I'm learning.


















My inability to cut on a line… The saw cut was straight, but they weren't all perpendicular. They were getting better, though.


----------



## thedude50

My Uncle was over the other day it seems he is well versed in saw sharpening. I believe he said my Grandfather taught him how and he was very pleased with my collection of tools to do the task. I will let him show me some of the stuff I already know and that way I will know wither to follow his lead or to look for another teacher. I love the guy but I have to get this right.

Terry PM sent sorry I was out of it since the day before turkey day and am back in the shop full time I have a couple of good ideas for some people. I hope I get their names as the guys I don't know may feel the mallet is not personal enough like it was not made just for them.


----------



## SamuelP

I want a carcass saw or a tennon saw.


----------



## donwilwol

Sam, I hope Santa is watching.


----------



## need2boat

Well I'd be the first to admit if someones going to screw up a spelling it's me. I try use "carcass" but often the spell checker changes it to carcase.

He Lance, what Andy posted is correct. I'll keep an eye out for your package.

Dan, 
Per your comment about Mike. I don't think I put my eyes on that saw but he's go so many it's hard to say. He tends to collect mostly split nuts, but as you pointed out he really knows his history. I've got one, (yes he has 4 or 5) of his brass backed double eagle Disston 8" backsaws that needs both a top and lower horn. Mike tends to be a leave them in found condition type of guy but this one had enough issues I think even he was oking with repairing.

One tip he gave me on research is to search google books directly rather then using the main google page. It automatically seaches books but does a better job if you start there.

Joe


----------



## chrisstef

FYI - over at the HPOYD thread the link to the epic holiday calendar is up.


----------



## DonBroussard

This saw was given to me for helping a friend build an outdoor deck. I. The blade itself is 26" long but I find it unusual that the tip is only 1/2" wide. It is 8TPI and has a Disston medallion. The handle is attached to the blade with 5 screws-one of the screws and nuts is missing. I sanded off the surface rust and I don't see an etching on the top of the blade.



















According to Disstonian Institute's website, the style of the 13/16" medallion suggests that it is a Disston D-23 crosscut saw made between 1940 and 1947. I'm not sure that it's a D-23, though. I haven't seen my saw blade's profile on the website yet, though, but I'm still looking.

I've also included a close up of the broken handle-that might provide additional clues to its identity.








I just knocked off the loose rust with my RO with a very light touch on low speed. I am cleaning it now with Evaporust and see if any etchings show up (I'm not optimistic though). I'll post more pictures on the "clean" saw tomorrow. I posted this in another forum topic, and one respondent suggested that the number of screws mounting the handle to the blade suggested a higher quality saw. I will also look on the Disstonian Institute site to see if they have information on that.

With all the hand tool experts on LJ, I am hoping I can get some help identifying the saw. Thanks in advance for your help.


----------



## Mosquito

The saw I got from Smitty got to see some action today, and quite a bit of it…


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

That is simply AWESOME!


----------



## Mosquito

However I sharpened it (I won't claim to really know what I'm doing yet) it works really well for rip cuts and fantastic at crosscut. It's really comfortable to use as well, so I couldn't be happier at this point


----------



## donwilwol

Don, http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/d23page.html, about halfway down looks like yours.


----------



## lysdexic

Don, not to belittle that saw, but if that is all you got for helping someone build a deck then I'd say your friend got a great deal. In fact, if you want to help me put on an addition I have some rusty screw drivers :^)


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

That saw must have been trapped beneath the floor of that deck between buildings… wow…

Don, if you're able to pull that one back from death's door, you're a man's man for sure. Just an FYI, the very shallow tip tells me (others may disagree, and probably will because many know more than I do on the topic of saws) it's been sharpened plenty in it's life. Meaning, it's been loved. Just not lately.

Keep us up with pictures of progress, this is a great one in the making!


----------



## DonBroussard

@Don W-It does look like the D-23 pictured. The handle pictured matches my handle, as well as the fastener placement. The toe of the blade is thicker than mine, but maybe mine has been sharpened to the 1/2" at the toe.

@ScottyB-That's funny right there! I didn't really get the saw as payment. The labor was free, and he knew I liked hand tools so he gave that to me. I do like North Carolina, but I don't think I could justify your project for some rusty screwdrivers. Now if you had an old saw . . .


----------



## donwilwol

Let's see some pictures of those rusty screwdrivers, then we'll talk.


----------



## DonBroussard

@Smitty-I did see something called a Shipwright's Saw that had a thinner toe to cut curves. I accept that this saw has been loved a LOT in its life of service to the people who owned her.


----------



## bandit571

I didn't like those sharp edges in my hands, so they got a round-over. A Disston D-23


----------



## DonBroussard

@bandit-I like your saw handle, especially the round overs. It looks really comfortable to use. I suspect you made the handle yourself. What wood did you use, and do you have a pattern for the handle and the carvings? I can trace my broken handle for part of the way, but then I'd have to free hand the bottom where it's broken.


----------



## bandit571

That handle was the original one,it just had a chip or two missing. Round-over made up for the missing spots. I have been known to make my own totes. I was using 5/4 Sycamore slabs for a couple.









I just used a similar tote as a pattern, then used the saw's plate to locate the holes in the tote. Just hold the two steady, when the two look right, a black Sharpie to mark the holes' location.


----------



## DonBroussard

I am realizing how poor my hand saw vocabulary is! It's like I'm trying to learn a new language. Badge = medallion; blade = plate; handle = tote.

As for mine, I'll pull it out of the Evaporust tomorrow evening and see if I have something or a saw on which to practice sharpening. I'll probably make a new tote for it regardless. The saw is already pretty sharp (surprisingly) so I can probably put it to work soon.

By the way, my plate looks different from yours. Mine doesn't have that sharp edge on the plate right below the tote. I'll look tomorrow to see if it looks broken or was otherwise altered.


----------



## bandit571

Yours MIGHT have had that sharp corner at one time. All those times of sharpening it has worn away a lot of plate there. I also have a saw that was sharpened way too much…









It even has different teeth patterns along the length. I have since cut that "pointy" end off, and now have a decent "Panel" saw. I cut just where that pointed end was bent, now the plate is straight. Saw is by Atkins.


----------



## wormil

Every year I like the noise of power tools less and am in less of a hurry. If I wanted to start a collection of hand saws where should I start? Already have a 26" 9 tpi bow saw but it's a bit tough to hold steady over a long cut and I have a Durall Precision (made in Germany) 10 tpi saw (yard sale find) that I'm guessing came from a miter box. The Durall needs a sharpening, is it worth it or should I just look for a better saw? I don't want to spend the money to sharpen a crappy saw.


----------



## need2boat

Ok so now I'm starting to notice the carcass and carcase spelling everywhere. I use Ray's nomenclature a lot backsaw.net and he's spells it Carcase but I think I kind of like Carcass better.

Joe


----------



## DaddyZ

Rick M - Looks like you have already started to collect some saws…..


----------



## chrisstef

Im in the same boat as you are Rick. The noise is becoming less and less appealing. I wouldnt want to have to rip down 10 boards or anything like that but for the small stuff ive been reaching exclusively for hand tools.


----------



## Mosquito

I worked on my workbench all afternoon yesterday, and so far today. Yesterday I used the power drill with a forstner bit to hog out most of the material for a mortise. Today, I used a brace instead. It was actually much easier. I mean, more physical work, but easier. Chopping large mortises by hand, though… still noisey


----------



## chrisstef

Smashing away on a piece of oak isnt any walk in the park Mos, but when it fits just right its something that will make ya smile.


----------



## Mosquito

They don't lol Well, 2 of them do, 2 of them aren't perfect… My right arm hurts from all that mallet swinging… I haven't done that much work with it since the summer my girlfriend lived 250 miles away… [ That was for Al ;-) ]


----------



## chrisstef

seems like WV is much more than 250 miles from MN Mos …..


----------



## DonBroussard

Reference Post 2141 above. These are the "before" pictures from that earlier post.



















I treated the blade with Evaporust over the last 24 hours. I used my RO sander with 80, 120 and 220 grit to see if I could get all the rust off. Here's how it looks now.



















I did not identify any etchings or engravings on the blade so I went at it pretty aggressively with the sander. Here's a close up of the tote side of the blade. It does not look like the bottom edge was broken and, although it looks original, it may have been altered. I just don't know enough to tell.










I will make a tote later. I will try to recreate the pattern from other D-23s I've seen. If anyone can point to a resource where I can download the templates, that would be even better than trying to freehand a pattern. Finally, any idea where I can get replacement screw sets to attach the new tote? I am only missing one but I'd like to have a few extras.


----------



## Mosquito

lol Stef, I was actually in ND at the time (girlfriend was in MN… go figure, she's from ND and I'm from MN
I just figured Al would like that comment 
-

Nice work on that saw plate Don. Looks rather pitted, but cleaned up well. If you would have found an etch under all that… I would have been extremely surprised lol


----------



## DanKrager

Don, Ebay has several sets available, but they are either Nickel plate, slilver, or aluminum according to the descriptions. I've also learned that the medallions and screw caps come in different sizes, so be aware. I'm looking for brass ones for three saws recently purchased that were short a couple. The ID medallions are present, just the plain bolts. I forgot to take before pic of the D7, so it's got some light sanding where I thought I might find some etch. Not. The D8 has visible etch and that confirms the saw to be near 1910. I'll get pics posted some day, but don't hold your breath. I'm new to the restore game, so going (very) slow. My 42" forrestry saw with very bad handle came yesterday. Disston with new looking teeth, but blade is very rusty.
The D7 needs to be retoothed. A broken tooth is deep into the blade about 1/2 tooth height.  I used to have retoothing equipment, but not now. Can this be done by hand?
DanK


----------



## shampeon

Wenzloff has handle pattern templates.


----------



## DonBroussard

@shampeon-Thanks for that reference. Unfortunately, the templates don't include a D23 tote.


----------



## donwilwol

Don, I have some links put together that may help, http://lumberjocks.com/donwilwol/blog/25390

at the bottom is a couple template links.


----------



## need2boat

Don B.,

If not in a rush I can look through my pile of rejects. I know I have a few D23 like yours that are REALLY cut down but had good handles. I use them mostly for parts or sell off as is. I needed to make space recently so I pulled a few handles and plates. If interested just pmail me.


----------



## DonBroussard

@need2boat-I sent you a PM accepting your offer to look through your "rejects".


----------



## dczward

In addition to the weird "ice saw" I picked up (posted here), I have these two…

Both are Disstons, one says "Disston & Sons USA" and the other just "Disston USA". I'm going to clean them up and refurb the rip saw as a user, and the bigger one for hanging around. Both belonged to my grandfather-in-law, a Chinese immigrant to Hawaii who lived on a salt farm on Oahu from the1910s or so. I'll be sure to post the post cleanup pics…














































Does anyone know what model these might be?


----------



## dczward

Looks like the second is a Disston D-7, per http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/quickglance.html


----------



## dczward

And the first is a no. 12… Hmmm


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Help!

Anyone familiar with a saw like this?










Bought four saws for $14 today. A DE, Shapleighs, 'plate saw' and this mystery saw…


----------



## bandit571

Plate saw , I think I have it's (much) smaller relation out in the shop. The DE compass looks good, handle on the Shipleigh looks a wee bit new for me. Almost like the ones Disston put out in the 50s, like the "Rancher", and Townsman" saws. Be careful cleaning that red stuff off, that is NOT and etch, it is silk-screened paint. I found that out the hard way, ONCE.

Mystery saw, clean up the medallion, to see IF there is a name on it. Never have seen a carving job like that before. Should be fun to make a new tote for THAT saw. Got some carving chisels sharpened up??


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

The blade on the mystery saw is shot. Broken off, actually. I'm looking to repair the handle, or even have it repaired…

The red on the Shapleighs is rust. And I agree it's newer, but the handle and saw are original, I believe.


----------



## Mosquito

Nice Smitty. I like the handle on that first one. I also like the plate saw for some reason…

-

I'm starting to get the itch to pick up a miter saw…


----------



## donwilwol

Smitty, the one with the steel plate looks in nice shape, and I can't wait for the restore blog on the floral saw.


----------



## Dcase

This is listed in the December Woodcraft catalog. Woodcraft said they only ordered 10 of these saws to be made and will be selling 9 of them on a first come first serve basis. 300 dollars is a bit rich for me but I think it looks cool and would be neat to own one.

http://www.woodcraft.com/product/2085097/39490/bad-axe-tool-works-85th-anniversary-10-15tpi-dovetail-saw-black-pearl-nickel-plated-carbon-steel-b.aspx


----------



## Mosquito

That does look really nice Dan. Starting at $225 for the "standard" Bad Axe, $300 isn't that bad either (in terms of how much it sells for). After customer supplied handle wood, and the black pearl nickle plated everything, it's right around $300 from Bad Axe directly… Still too much money for me to spend, though…


----------



## thedude50

The one with a pretty embossed tote is an Adkins saw I have a set of them they are some of the best saws ever made.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Don, the restore blog might be a bonfire at the current rate things are goind re: the floral Atkins saw. Glued the crack last night, it broke apart today while doing a bit of very light cleanup-up. Cleaned the break with 400 grit paper to get a good bonding area, and tried again.


----------



## DanKrager

Thanks for the Wenzlof post, Shampeon. I'll use at least two of those templates. Looking for more information on the forestry saw.
DanK


----------



## Gshepherd

Smitty, curious how well it holds up, sanding to 400 grit pretty slippery, I would have sanded around 80 to give the glue some bite…. Am I thinkin wrong here????


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

A bad break on a $1 saw… Yeah, you're not wrong.

I'm expecting it to hold up until the time I tighten the medallion at job completion. Then it'll split wide open. We'll see, but it's good at present!


----------



## mochoa

Andy, question for you, with the crazy prices of vintage brass backsaws here in the states due to their rareity, I wonder if it not better. To buy them from accross the pond and pay the extra shipping. Are they any cheaper on. Ebay UK?


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Progress…


----------



## Brit

*Mauricio* - I'll send you a PM.


----------



## donwilwol

Good progress Smitty


----------



## Brit

Smitty that is going to blend right in. Am I right in thinking that you've cut a bit off of another saw handle? Looks like I can see the remains of a saw kerf and the edge of a counterbore for a saw bolt on the bit you've affixed.

Looking forward to the 'reveal'.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Andy, I have a donor carcass on hand from a saw that came with less than half it's handle. That kerf should be cut away with final shaping. Should, he said.


----------



## wormil

Oops, wrong thread.


----------



## thedude50

I have a connection in England looking for saws all the time if Andy will look too I may just have 2 guys looking for good old saws in England where there were so many good brass backed saws


----------



## wormil

What are some good options for a fairly aggressive rip saw for resawing? Disston is what I hear the most about then there seem to be a ton of models. It's a bit confusing. Should I ignore things like model numbers and just look for … what, a 26"-ish saw with around 4-5 tpi?


----------



## Gshepherd

This saw has Whitley written on it….. Could this be a bone saw????


----------



## ksSlim

Yep!


----------



## bandit571

Rick: Grab a D-8 with or without the thumbhole in the handle. Make sure it is stamped as a 5ppi, or even a 5.5 ppi. None better.


----------



## wormil

Thanks Bandit. I'll keep my eyes peeled.


----------



## Brit

Gshepherd - What you have there is a Lancashire pattern hacksaw.

Rick - A Disston D8 (5-6 points per inch) is a good choice. If you are right-handed, you can get one with a thumb hole although you can rip just as well without a thumb hole. The thumbhole isn't much use if you are left-handed.


----------



## AnthonyReed

Would you gurus be so kind as to help me with some direction?

For crosscuts that require more depth of blade than a carcass saw allows, should i look for a tenon saw or crosscut panel saw?

Thank you.


----------



## Mosquito

I'll hope Andy can chime in with the "official" word on this one, but for me it depends on the length of the cut. If the work piece is wider than I want to do with a tenon saw (which, for me, is about half the length of the saw) then I'd rather use a panel saw. With the panel saw, the saw is angled into the work piece instead of parallel (mostly) like the tenon saw. It's about length of the saw stroke, for me.


----------



## Brit

Good question Tony. Crosscuts deeper than a carcass saw? What are you building? A new 14" - 16" sash/tenon saw will usually give you about a 4" depth of cut. If you want it any deeper than that, use a panel saw.


----------



## AnthonyReed

I should have pondered it a bit more before asking.

I am running into issues when sawing stock to size; not while cutting joints. A sash/tenon saw is to be used more so in joinery not stock preparation. A panel saw is more appropriate for my needs i am understanding now. Please correct me if i'm wrong.

I am not currently building anything other than embarrassments Andy.

So i guess i am looking for a crosscut panel. Any suggestions?

Thank you very much for the advice guys.


----------



## Mosquito

I've got a Lie Nielsen 8ppi cross cut panel saw. I picked it up for a decent deal when someone was selling it here a few months ago.

I've been happy with its performance, but I've honestly been tossing around the idea of selling it if/when I find a decent deal on an old panel saw in good shape. I mean, I like the LN, but it doesn't fit with the rest of them, except my dovetail saw, you know?

I just picked up an old D7 5ppi for rip, wouldn't mind something like that for cross cut. After my recent [reasonable] success sharpening my tenon saw, I'm a little less gun shy about it now. Though I'm still a bit hesitant to tackle re-toothing…


----------



## AnthonyReed

Hit me up when you are ready to sell Mos; i am in no hurry and will probably still be in the market. I take forever to decide what to buy.


----------



## thedude50

Did you guys watch Roy's show the other day on create channel? The Schwartz was on and he was talking about classes of saw cuts. Great gig telling all the old secrets of woodworking. Screw it I am going to sit down and dictate a book on Grandpas woodworking secrets.


----------



## thedude50

Chris is that an offer to trade the LN for a really fine vintage saw ? I have a few nice saws and might like to do the trade


----------



## Mosquito

What's the show called, Dude?
-

Re trade, I'm always open to hearing offers/trades, etc. You never know. I'm not sure if I'm ready to trade yet, but who knows.


----------



## wormil

I think Dude is referring to this episode:
http://www.pbs.org/woodwrightsshop/video/3000/3009.html

C.Shwartz is one of my favorite guests on the show.


----------



## OnlyJustME

He was on 2 episodes of WoodWright. I have them both dvr'd.


----------



## DanKrager

I have another sharpening question. The original remains unanswered so I will repeat it in case it got overlooked.
1. (repeat) can a saw be retoothed by hand? 
2. I've never seen it done except on forrestry crosscut saws, but why doesn't a crosscut saw have, say every third tooth shaped like a rip saw to clean out the little ridge that the knife teeth create?
DanK


----------



## donwilwol

Dan, the answer to your first question is "yes". Andy (Brit) has a good blog on how to do it and so does Paul Sellers. I've tried it and failed miserably, bit that's another story.

I'll let Andy or Joe (or somebody who knows better than me) answer question 2.


----------



## DanKrager

Thanks DonW,
I was just methodically going through your handy list of references and am getting what I think I need. Thank you for doing that.
None of them talk about the funky cross cut chisel tooth, though. I guess it isn't done for a reason, but if that reason is economics and not physical, I'm gonna try it. I've got a D7 with a VERY bad set of teeth, one missing, so I'll have plenty of metal to experiment with no loss of vintage. I don't plan or need to file until the "hillbilly" is gone because it should work well even if the gap is still there. it will be a LOT smaller, though.

DanK


----------



## thedude50

Dan, I would not want to burst your bubble but it might be better to ask Joe to re tooth and sharpen a nice old saw like that. He has done work for me and I could not be happier. I use the saw he replated almost every single day It is a thing of beauty.

I would hate to see you do a re tooth as your first saw task maybe do a simple rip sharpen job first.


----------



## thedude50

Yes rick that is the right episode Schwartz has been on at least 4 episodes of the show and all are good for a laugh and a lesson.


----------



## DanKrager

Thedude50, no bubble is burst. I've hand sharpened saws before and at one time had all the Foley equipment to do it mechanically. Had a small side business going in another area and era. I sharpen my own Japanese saws successfully (they can't be sharpened y'know…) but I've never re-toothed by hand. I want to try my hand at this old saw because there is nothing to lose if I don't carry it too far for an expert like Joe to fix. I know and look forward to the tedium. I don't have a picture, but you can't believe how this was "sharpened" last time. I think someone else was "practicing", though not recently because the edges are rusty. Just to joint the saw I'll have to remove almost half the tooth height. The guy must have been blind!
I've seen pictures of Joe's work and there is none better. In fact, I think it was he who talked about variable rake angles he put on a "recent" sharpening job. And with him in mind doing that, I wondered about raker teeth in a crosscut, a non-standard and non-traditional thought except in forestry saws. At least Joe has precedence as some of the vintage sharpeners did variable pitch. 
I have a D8 5 1/2 rip with thumb hole handle which will be a cake walk. Both these saws are badly pitted, the D7 so badly that I'm afraid it might even be rusted through in a couple places. 
I've never heard of replating a saw. Might a badly pitted saw be a candidate?
DanK


----------



## thedude50

yes my Marples saw had a bad case of the pits the rest of the saw was beautiful and joe put a new plate on it and made it into a sash saw it is a joy to use it rips and crosscuts with the best of them I will die with this saw in my hand at least I pray i do


----------



## DanKrager

Depending on how expensive that is, I just might spring for it, the plating. 
Now I have another question. I bought this "D7" with a Disston medallion and the seller called it a Disston. It looks like a Disston, smells like a Disston. However, when I go to find a proper handle pattern and I've tried several, nothing matches up, as in not even close. TGIAG seemed to have the most accurate rendition of a printable D7 pattern, but the bottom hole on the blade isn't even within the handle outline. The pattern printed out exactly correctly per the scale printed with it. Now I'm beginning to wonder if this is really a Disston. The handle that came on it seemed to be a misfit…it is shaped like the handle of the Disston pruning saws or forestry saws, but the blade is clearly not such. 
So the question is: Is Disston the only saw maker to put nibs on the blade? Until now I've been "laboring" under the impression that a nib was unique enough to clearly id the blade as Disston.


> ?


DanK


----------



## donwilwol

Is Disston the only saw maker to put nibs on the blade?

No. At one time to be a respectable saw manufacturer, you put a nib on your saw.


----------



## DanKrager

I'm finding that out! I'm sitting here researching and it's going to be tough. Henry Peace made a couple saws very close to this blade profile. I'll be checking more. Thanks, Don.
DanK


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## thedude50

Dan I dont mean to be self promoting in any way but for your own sake please go to thisoldworkshop.com and read the article on the front page called rusty gold by Matt Cianci. It was eye opening to me I was so pleased to know all the tips it has changed how I buy saws and which saws I do buy.


----------



## DanKrager

Going there now. Thanks for the tip. I'm grateful for all the ideas I can get.
DanK


----------



## CL810

I need some help with identifying this Disston saw. The blade is 12" long and it is 2.5" below the back. Using the Disstonian Institute Medallion guide I believe it was made between 1878 and 1888. The handle type and logo on the back are consistent with these years. However, I am not certain about it's type. I think it is a Type 7.

Can anyone verify this and any clue about it's value would be appreciated.

Thanks!


----------



## donwilwol

a #4 disston maybe? http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/backsawpage.html


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## CL810

Don, the site refers to the #4 having a "blue" back coming from the heat treatment with linseed oil. Does that wear off in time?

It's not a 7. I just noticed this from the Disstonian Institute website.

"The lamb's tongue at the bottom of the handle was part of the design until the 1850's. This design element was featured on Disston No. 7 handsaws until 1928."


----------



## donwilwol

I would imagine the blue would were off, but that's just a guess.


----------



## Brit

CL810 - Yes Don is correct. The bluing did wear off, but it is definitely a No. 4 backsaw that you have there. You are correct in your dating of the medallion (1878 - 1888), but you can narrow it down a bit more by studying the stamping on the spine. The fact that your stamp contains the word PHILADA and not PHILAD'A or PHILAD'A USA and the fact that the words CAST-STEEL (with a dash) and HENRY DISSTON & SONS are written in a sans serif font would date your saw into the 1880s. If you look at the 18" miterbox saw on the backsaw page that Don posted a link to above, you will see that it has the same stamp on the spine.


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## chrisstef

Seens on Andy's desk …










Nice slueth work Brit.


----------



## Brit

...and on Thursday nights I dress up like a right old slapper and answer to the name of Veronica, but that's another story.


----------



## chrisstef

Now i know where im going on vacation 

Im going to have to take a closer look at the Disston backsaw i own very similar to CL810's. Im sure the tote is exactly the same but i do believe i have a warrented superior emblem.


----------



## donwilwol

I'm not sure we have right old slappers here. And I'm afraid to ask!


----------



## Brit

Chrisstef - The fact that there are a lot of old saws that have had replacement parts fitted can definitely be an issue when identifying them.

Don - You're probably better off not knowing. )


----------



## CL810

Thanks Andy and Don!

Andy - Do you go shopping on Wednesdays?

Stef, when you go a vacation you better take a few old saws and chisels if you're going to bro-mance Veronica!


----------



## need2boat

Hey Dan,

Here's a pic I had on my HD. It shows the basic idea of retoothing. I use a folly 95% of the time unless the plate is under 12". If you do it enough its sometimes fast then pulling out all the foly crap.










Joe


----------



## need2boat

CL810,

I'd say it was No 4 and if/when you pull the handle you'll find it's blued where the handle protected it. As for dating backsaws it's always hard. I would say it fall in the golden years, what I call late 1800 early 1900. Disston was cranking them out and I find lots of mixed matched parts. For sure they were not throwing away things because something changed mind year. Think of how many of the backwards stamped sons where made and that's their name! I've seen about 5 examples in the last year.

Joe


----------



## thedude50

ok joe what is a folly


----------



## bandit571

I think Joe means a Foley Belsaw type of machine.


----------



## Brit

Dude - This is a Foley retoother machine.










... and this is an example of an English Folly which was a building constructed by the landed genrtry primarily for decoration. They had no real use other than to demonstrate their wealth, but they were built in such a way as to appear to have a purpose. Nowadays, they could easily house a family of four. )


----------



## need2boat

yea sorry about that. Foley retoother. Belsaw bought the company but most of the retoothers were made before they were bought out.

The carrier has 3 support points, I want to say 10" or so between each so if the saw is less then 12" its hard to tighten it down correctly. I drilled and taped one of my extra carriers to hold smaller ones so now I can go down to 6" but I do so few it's just as easy by hand since the thinner plates file easier.

JFF


----------



## DanKrager

Thanks, need2boat! I can do that! How obvious. 
I jointed the teeth today and am still not down to four of them, but I'm going to stop. Some teeth have all but disappeared.

DanK


----------



## DanKrager

That Foley setup is almost exactly what I had. I still have the grinder on the right.
DanK


----------



## need2boat

Yea that picture Brit posted is a collection from old to new.

This is the basic model 30/31 retoother and in Andy's pic (center) is the lastest model 1000 or 1100









The big difference is just how it feeds. They kept trying to improve it with each model but the truth is they never got it right.

They all work about the same. You put a saw in the carrier find the correct bar and feed into machine. It used a paw that grabs the grooves in the bar. The closer the grooves the smaller the teeth, farther apart the bigger. The feed track can be adjusted and that changed the angle or fleam. It's a really simple idea and works well the problem is they are all built like ********************. It was intended for home second income people and just not built well.

The weakness is the way the carrier feeds the bar. It's poorly supported and the vibration from years of use cause all sorts of problems. your feeding a 36 saw held to a thin bar that's supported only by where it touches the unit so when you starting off or finishing up it flapping around. Most people build some type of jig and also use there hands as it's not moving fast but it's still a bad design and you're always adjusting something. The cutting dies are another can of worms. I use mine a good deal so I make allowances but it can be CRAZY frustrating at times or when you're first learning it.

Joe


----------



## Deycart

Hey guys, I was wondering if I could borrow some of your saw knowledge. I recently restored a d8 and filed it rip 8ppi 8rake. It cuts great, but for some reason when I really get going the toe of the saw slaps back and forth like a fish tail and it makes it harder to pull the saw through the kerf. Is there anything I can do to reduce this?


----------



## need2boat

Deycart.

Try changing you angle of cut and see what that does. I find some saws are more prone to it then others but normally it can be adjusted by angle. Each one having it's own sweet spot.

Joe


----------



## dczward

Here's a cleanup I did on a plain Jane 1940's D-7. I took this on because; I wanted to see if I could do it; it belonged to family; I needed a damn saw to use! In the process I built a saw vise, learned sharpening, and didn't even ruin it! As a 40's D-7, it has steel, not brass nuts/medallion, no imprint on the blade beyond a stamped "8" (for the TPI). I kept is set up as it was, an 8 tpi



















After:



















More pictures here…

http://www.flickr.com/photos/dczward/sets/72157632215770553/


----------



## donwilwol

Very nice save Douglas. What's up with the hole? It seems extreme given the rest of it.


----------



## chrisstef

DC - thats a heck of a job on the restore. Ive yet to complete a head to toe handsaw restore, theyre a ton of work. Solid work doug.


----------



## Brit

You did that saw proud sir. Congratulations on learning to sharpen it too.


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## dczward

Don W-that's a rust hole from pitting :-( Here's a better picture of that…










It sucks, but its not too bad. I don't think it ruins it for use, it just makes it so this isn't going to ever be a museum piece.

And Andy - I'm still learning sharpening, but I intend on getting good at it. The job I did on this one took it from dull to "good". The file I had was close, but I ordered the appropriate one and by the the next sharpening, I should get it up to "great". There was a companion no name generic 8tpi crosscut saw from the 70s that I did my practicing on.


----------



## donwilwol

I think it just adds character. It shouldn't hurt its performance.


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## DanKrager

dczward,
I am impressed and encouraged. 
I'm also curious. Is that "big brother" a Disston? I have a forrestry saw that was presented as Disston and it seems to check out. But the handle, well there were two shreds of wood fiber that didn't give me a clue about the handle shape. The big brother handle looks good enough for a pattern if it is a Disston. 
If it is a Disston, would you post a photo that is straight on and could be used for a pattern? I like that handle.
The references I've found don't have patterns for forestry saws.

DanK


----------



## dczward

DanK - I posted about that one on this thread a weeks or so ago here , and there's a pretty good "side" pic. I believe that one is a 36" Disston no. 12 from pre 1917. And in addition to the horn being broken off, it was re-filed really crudely to something like 3 tpi. The reason was that I think it was converted into ice sawing duty. My grandfather & his family were farmers who raised fish and collected salt in Hawaii. They used ice to store the fish, and this saw was used to cut the blocks they got from the iceman. This was all 1900-1930.

While it is sort of hosed as a user saw, I'm still going to clean it up as a momento for his great grandchildren as a display piece.

Also, I've been to Olney. How are the white squirrels doing?


----------



## wormil

How do you guys feel about double sided back saws? Seems like a handy idea but not every handy idea is. And since the idea didn't catch on, I'm guessing it wasn't?


----------



## Brit

Rick - Do you have a picture of what you mean? I don't think I've ever heard of a double-sided backsaw.


----------



## wormil

Here is a double sided Disston, pic snagged from an ebay auction. Some of them have different tooth profiles on each side. Some have a bar that runs down the saw that looks adjustable.


----------



## Brit

That's what I thought you meant Rick. It is called a cabinet saw No.80 and usually had 10 PPI teeth on one side for ripping with the grain and 15 PPI for fine crosscutting. It was marketed towards cabinet makers and pattern makers and the handle can be swivelled to the desired angle. However, to call this a backsaw is incorrect as it doesn't have a back.

I sometimes use a Japanese saw that has rip teeth on one side and crosscut teeth on the other side, but that cuts on the pull stroke. Western saws cut on the push stroke, which would make this saw prone to buckling if it follows that convention. Does anyone know if the No.80 was a pull or push cut?

Either way though, I wouldn't recommend the No.80 as a replacement for a good sash saw, which was traditionally sharpened with a combination filing that can rip and crosscut effectively. The back or spine on a backsaw plays an important part, not only in keeping the blade in tension and helping to prevent buckling, but in providing the necessary downward pressure to keep the teeth engaged and cutting effectively.

Just my 2 cents.


----------



## DanKrager

dczward,
Thanks for the reminder. I probably breezed right over that pic because I wasn't looking for such a handle at the time. Thanks for the link, too. It's bookmarked now, so I can pull the pic, trace and scale it in Sketchup. I REALLY like that handle! I'll make one and put it on the user forestry blade I'm restoring.
We live about a mile east of Olney and have a white squirrel holding his own amongst the grays and reds on our property. I had a hunter take out about 100 squirrels and we couldn't hardly tell! About 500 hickory and oak trees would be like heaven to them. I watch carefully which grays he hangs with because the grays carry the albino gene and they don't get hassled. 
I'm still trying to figure out the questionable crosscut I have. Will post some pics later.
DanK


----------



## terryR

Douglas, nice job on that rusty Disston! I like that you made some effort at sharpening the teeth, since I'm still intimidated by that part of restoration. But I suppose a rusty 'practice' Warranted Superior can't really be ruined…even if all the steel is used as sharpening practice.

IMO, that's a better use of the saw than letting it just rust on a resturant wall…

Andy, I think I finally found a double-sided backsaw after much searching…note the frontside…








...and the back side…

And if you look closely, you can see the chrome dome of some old dude taking the photos!


----------



## lysdexic

Clever Terry :^)


----------



## Brit

LOL Terry )

I've told you before, hair never grows where the work's done. That's why women don't grow beards.


----------



## terryR

hey…full beard here…just sayin'
LOL

Andy, your saws are still the gold standard of restoration! I never get tired of looking at them!


----------



## ksSlim

My Dad said "work generates heat, that's why some have full heads of hair and still wear a hat".
Only took me 30 years to get the message.


----------



## wormil

As mentioned, some have a bar that run down the side to replace the brass back, those are the type I am actually curious about.

Example
http://www.wkfinetools.com/hUS-saws/BishopGeoH/tools/gBishop/No-10/No10-BishopGeoH.asp


----------



## chrisstef

Yo saw nuts .... ive been eyeballing a saw vice at the local consignment shop and im close, real close to buying it. Any advice on what to look for? Advantages, disadvatages?

I thought about flying Brit in so i could learn first hand but with the holidays and all he might not like sharing a room with my nieces and nephews.


----------



## donwilwol

Chris, I'll split Andy plane fair with ya!!

I'll make him a mallet while he's here too!

Make sure the vise jaws close tight and even. Also look at how it mounts and make sure you have a spot in your shop to mount it solid. Trying to sharpen on a wiggling saw vise is like planing on a work mate.


----------



## chrisstef

This ones got a ball joint type socket Don. Looks like it would clamp to the edge of a bench. Appears to close tight and even. I cant find a manufacturer on it but im gonna do some research to find a similar model.

Andy - as long as you come as Veronica you, me, and Don got a deal ya right old slapper (hope i used it right lol).


----------



## Mosquito

*Trying to sharpen on a wiggling saw vise is like planing on a work mate.*

And both suck, just as much


----------



## need2boat

Chris,

I'll second what Don is saying. If you can a try a saw plate in it first that's best. Also check for repairs where it mounts to the tables. I find MANY have to been repaired. it's really important it tights down good as often your apply a lot of leverage.

Also take a look at the top edge where you'll be filing and check it's not filed to hell. a few cut marks here and there can't be helped but it should be jagged from repeated files digging into it.

I'm sure if Andy bought some tools with him he'd pay for the fight here and do th same returning home with some choice US ones. When I go to the big auctions that's what most of the dealers do.

Joe


----------



## chrisstef

Thanks for the information Joe. Next time i run through there ill take a harder look at it. I know that ive threatend you with sending some saws your way and i will once the holidays die down and i know ive got a few bucks in my pocket for a professional job. Im too embarassed to send you the saws ive attempted derusting. My Disston 12 has got papertowel imprints all over it from an evapo soaking that dried out and stuck like the dickens.


----------



## chrisstef

Here's basically an exact replica of the saw vice …


----------



## Brit

You guys crack me up.

Rick - I have seen photos of those before, but never seen one in the flesh. Like you, I'd love to hear if anyone actually has one and what they think of it.


----------



## Brit

Don, Chrisstef & Joe - I'd love to bring some tools out for you guys, but Mads has bought them all.


----------



## bandit571

I think I sold one of those this past summer…









look close??









I didn't have enough saws on hand to keep it busy..









I think this one was by Disston…


----------



## chrisstef

Thats the one bandito!! Ive got at least 6 saws worthy of rehab and a good sharpening.


----------



## Arminius

chrisstef, that one is fine for most backsaws, but gets frustrating with any hand saw bigger than a panel saw.

Project on my bench right now is a saw vise to deal with all my saws.


----------



## chrisstef

Ya know arminius i was thinkin the same thing. That sharpening a panel saw might be difficult with 9" of vice to work with. It might wanna fish tail on me or id have to scoot it back and forth. If i could get them to $25 id roll the dice and see how it went. There's always a resale market and i do know a couple of woodworkers 

Scoot. Yup i said it.


----------



## ksSlim

Old saw vises in the midwest go for $35 - $75. Longest one I own only 12 inches.
Makes it "fun" to sharpen a D7. Work 5 minutes, reposition 5 minutes.


----------



## thedude50

Saw vises go for the same on ebay with a few exceptions I have 40 such vises and i have some that were never used I had one that came in the original box. It is a no2 disston and sells for closer to 200 dollars if i were to sell it which i wont

I am looking for the original guide to the no1 disston saw vise if you have this guide I will pay handsomely for it.


----------



## thedude50

On Buying the saw vises I say only buy the Disston saw vises the other brands leave a lot to be desired


----------



## chrisstef

So i dug in on my Disston 12 that was butchered by papertowels soaked in ER that dried and stuck to the plate. Ive sanded up through 400 and there are still areas where you can see the marks left behind. It almost feels like its pitted small little squares throughout areas of the plate. Any suggestions from here going forward gang?


----------



## donwilwol

Wire wheel….....


----------



## lysdexic

yoda


----------



## chrisstef

Of course (facepalm). It makes so much sense when you say it Don Yoda. Thanks buddy!


----------



## ksSlim

I've found some plastic trays used by wallpaper folks for wetting paste/glue on wallpaper.
@30" long and 2 1/2" deep, their almost right for some stuff. 
Hit it with a fine brush, if it doesn't clean to your likeing, resoak-bath, start over with the fine abrasive.


----------



## Brit

Chrisstef - Saws can be difficult to immerse in Evaporust, especially if you can't get the handle off. One thing I've learnt today though, is that soaking paper towels and applying them to the saw plate is not a good idea. )

A good source for shallow trays is your local garden center. Pick up a plastic potting tray.










I have never used one of the short cast iron saw vises but having sharpened a few saws now, I doubt I ever will. Mine was just made from stuff I had lying around and I've been very pleased with it. I purposely designed it to be used with anything from an 8" dovetail saw to a 28" rip saw without having to move the saw in the clamp. My design works with a twin screw vise, but you could also clamp it on the edge of a bench using a couple of bar clamps. Mos made a nice one too and there are few other designs out there if you google 'saw vise'.


----------



## donwilwol

I would like a longer vice. I may make one someday. I bid on one about 3' long, really heavy cast. I went to $70 or something like that. The guy that won it owns an antique shop and was selling it for a lot.


----------



## dbray45

I have an old cast iron saw vice - paid $52.00 for it. Ii has a hard time with keeping clamped down so I wrap ithe releasing handle with an elastic strap. If I don't do this, it will release the saw and drop it on my leg or floor. One way it is painful on me, the other on the saw, bending it.

I have been rethinking this for a while, examining different options. Make sure that it holds the saw tightly and does not release it, especially the thicker saw plates.


----------



## chrisstef

Thanks for all the sage advice fellas. Im currently out of ER but ill make a trip to HF for a new batch. Andy, slick idea from the garden center. Ive also got some of those big blue totes that i can rifle a top from for a 2" soak. Ill try the evaporust one more time to see if it gets that crud off, if not, im going to a fine wire wheel on a hand held drill. Its a Disston 12, 10 TPI with an "X" on the plate under the tote.

Im also going to test out that saw vice at the local ctool consignment joint, theyve got a bunch of saws laying around so ill clamp one up and see how it goes. If i can get em to $25 ill spring for it, if not ill build me one like Andy, Mos, or the legions of others out there.


----------



## carguy460

Rick - someone here has one of those saws with the moveable spine deal…I can't remember who. Smitty maybe?

EDIT: Yep - it was Smit…check it out in action in this blog entry:


----------



## terryR

Chris, if you have any flashing around, you bend and shape your own shallow tray for saw blades to soak in…idea from Yoda I think…

Also FYi everyone…Tractor Supply carries ER if you have one of those stores nearby…


----------



## planepassion

Gardening and woodworking….hmmm. That's a little like chocolate and peanut butter…a winning combination.

I like the potting tray idea. I priced out materials when I was casting about for a saw plate soaking bin, and the stuff was way more than I wanted to spend. So I built a wood base that I line with a garbage bag. That's worked well, but I have to take great care to ensure that the pattern of the plastic doesn't get etched into the steel. A potting tray is the perfect solution. Thanks Andy.


----------



## mochoa

The potting tray would work for large planes too. you would just need to turn it a couple of time sthe get it all.


----------



## chrisstef

A plane rotisserie you suggest mauricio??? Dont go giving Yoda any ideas he'll have gear reducers set up off the PTO of the kubota to spin it no doubt.


----------



## bandit571

That cast iron vise I had, I bought at a garage sale for $.85. Cleaned it up, tried it out for awhile, and finally sold it for about $10 +S&H. I still had my homemade one, at the time.


----------



## wormil

@carguy460, thanks. Looks like it worked out well for Smitty. I'm still on the fence though.

Earlier someone recommended a Disston 8 but everything was either restored and expensive ($100+) or looked like it had been buried in a barn for 50 years so I bought a de-rusted and repaired GH Bishop; hoping to get it this week. It'll be nice to finally have a rip saw. My foray into hand tool territory is going well. Now if I can find a good price on a froe I'll be set for a few months.


----------



## mochoa

Who sells the sweetest dovetail saw right now around the $100 range? Lie Nielsen? Pax? I got to have a brass back though.


----------



## donwilwol

Smitty, I was in my box of "to be restored" saws and found this:



















Its an E C Atkins exactly like yours, including the horn break.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Oh, Man! That's much nicer than mine at the start, and the medallion is a very nice plus. Funny the horn is snapped clean in the same location!


----------



## bandit571

I was at an Antique mall this evening, and turned down a panel saw. An Atkins with four bolts counting the Medallion. Stamped on the plate is an "11". about 20" long. $5.00 for the saw….


----------



## lysdexic

I really like those Atkins totes. I prefer that floral engraving to the classic "wheat" design.


----------



## chrisstef

+1 OG ScottyB on the floral vs. the wheat.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

I'd pay $5 for a sunken Atkins medallion for my saw…


----------



## bandit571

pay day is this Friday, i'll see what I can do…...


----------



## Brit

*Mauricio* - The only western dovetail saws with a brass back that I know about for around the $100 mark is the Atkinson Walker 168


----------



## Brit

*Mauricio* - If you can stretch to $120, you'll get a better saw if you are prepared to make your own handle.

Kits are available from either Winsor saw or TFWW. Personally, I'd buy the Gramercy dovetail kit.


----------



## Brit

robert - welcome to LJs. The ability to sarpen you own saws saws is a great skill to have.


----------



## thedude50

Mauricio I will recommend 3 saws the one Andy likes is a great saw so +1 on that. Then the LN is a great saw as well I JUST GAVE ONE OF MINE TO MY SHOP PARTNER Bill Barkley he has wanted the saw for a year I had two of them and I only need one it was so nice i got a second one cheep on flea bay and had it for a couple of years one of them just sat in the cabinet and the other one gets used every day.

AND NOW FOR THE SAW i THINK EVERYONE SHOULD OWN. It is the joiners saw from Glen Drake tools This has become my favorite hand saw I use it every day for many tasks even dovetails and cutoff work it has this handle that is like a part of your arm. You can buy several plates for the saw and you can change them out or you can buy several more of the saws and set them all up for different uses If I was rich I would buy you one just because I believe in this saw too bad I am not rich. Anyway check out the saw


----------



## Brit

Lance good call on the LN Dovetail saw. I didn't realise you could get them for as little as $125 in the US. That is good value. Personally I would go for the progressive pitch dovetail saw, because I think it is a little too coarse. I also wouldn't go for the thin plate if you intend to saw out your waste with a coping or jeweller's saw, as you probably won't be able to get the blade down the kerf left by the thin plate saw. I'd get the standard one.

I think the Glen Drake saw is a bit out of Mauricio's $100 dollar price range though at $199.


----------



## thedude50

Andy, no that is the big kit with 3 plates. you can get one plate saw for 139 so it is not so bad and it is a joy to use and it has made my sawing improve with every saw I own . The plate has no teeth for 4 inches at the beginning and at the end of the stroke this makes it work like a dream. You see the saw is moving as the teeth engage this makes it work so easy wen the teeth get to the wood there is already movement into the Cerf started by the Cerf CUTTER It is hard to describe the feeling but once you have used this saw for a cut you will want to have one for ever purpose. I didn't like the tote at first but it feels so good after i got used to it it feels like it is a part of my forearm its worth trying this saw too


----------



## Brit

I must have missed that Lance. That's not a bad price then.


----------



## mochoa

Thanks Andy, around the $135 range is what I was thinking about which is what a LN coast. I didn't know about the kits, thanks for the links.

Is a Gramercy Saw much better than a LN? Because they are close to the same price but the LN requires no assembly or handle making.

-I just read your reply to the Dude, so never mind-

Good call out on the standard blade thickness. Progressive pitch, check…

I'll have to wait till my birthday now (Feb). I just spent my Christmas money on a #62 and a DMT….

Dude, when you win the lotto holler at me! That looks like a nice saw.


----------



## Mosquito

my DT saw is a LN progressive pitch. I've been happy with it, but as Andy said I feel I'd rather a little less coarse, but it does work fine.


----------



## lysdexic

+1 what Mos said. I have the same LN DT saw and I like it but then again I really like the Veritas LA BU jack. So you probably will get something else :^)

Further, who says you only have to have one DT saw. Get the LN now and then search for a vintage Disston some time later. That is my plan.


----------



## Brit

What only two dovetails saws?


----------



## mochoa

LOL. Scott I only ask you for your recommendations so I know what not to get. I really did like that Veritas BU jack but to rich for my blood at the moment


----------



## mochoa

So is the Atkins saw better choice than the LN since it is 15ppi? Its a fair price at $135. And free shipping!


----------



## need2boat

Not for things like toothline. but I've had good look soaking cotton balls in rust remover and leaving on the stamp on backsaws then cleaning with s brass wire brush.


----------



## mochoa

Correction 15tpi on the LN also. Isnt it a problem going smaller than 15tpi since they are harder to sharpen?


----------



## Brit

Mauricio - If you want to make a tote, then I think the Gramercy is a better dovetail saw. If you don't, get the LN. You won't be disappointed with either saw.


----------



## mochoa

Thanks for the advise, Andy and All, Its on my list for February…


----------



## bandit571

Trip to the Antique mall agin today, with $5.35 in my pocket. Had a saw to pick up…









It has 11ppi, three brass bolts, and a sunken Medallion from indiana….









I think someone was interested in that bit of brass?? As for the plate…









It will take a little bit of work to clean up. Bolts are in great shape. Tote is crack free!









Now, I have to find a small, little box to ship that big piece of brass.


----------



## thedude50

That saw would cost you at least 20 bucks out here.


----------



## bandit571

For the same amount, I can get one of two Disston d7s. At another stall in that mall, there are three other Disstons. In a glass case, a Butcher ironed coffin smoother. It will set someone back $65, though. There are at least three other coffin smoothers through out the mall, between $15 and $25 each. Place even has a early non Bailey, Stanley #5 @ $12

There is another town nearby, with ten or so Antique stores in and around the ONE traffic light. I haven't been there…...YET. So, still some time to get there ahead of me…


----------



## bandit571

Started to wire brush the plate on this saw, and a second saw. I have a cup style brass brush, and install it in the drill press. I set the table so that the brush is down on the table. Then i just run the plates under the brush. Seems to get rid of most of the rust. The second saw is just a 50s Disston, about 26" long. Plywoodie handle, with shiny chrome bolts. Might be a decent "beater saw" for Barn wood stuff. The short Atkins? At 11ppi, might set it up as a crosscut.


----------



## OnlyJustME

I just found one of those plywood handle distons. It was my wife's grandfather's or great grandfather's saw. Handle is pretty much shot. have to get a pic of it up tomorrow.


----------



## chrisstef

What to do here fellas? The upper horn is broke off as usual but someone kindly filed abd sanded down the break to a nice round nub. 

















Do i make a relief cut moving down the vine pattern and then one across?


----------



## DanKrager

I've been wrong many times and will be the first to admit it when different is pointed out and confirmed, but it looks to me like that handle has been replaced already at some point. It was pretty well done, but there are little tells that I think give it away. It's unlikely that the original handle had a bulge like that in the palm area of the tote. The leaf carving appears to wrap into the "kindly" surgical area. The top view at the left on the face of the first curve shows an amateurish change in the bevel angle. 
If that is not the original handle, a well made new one would be an improvement I think. If it is original, then replacing that horn is going to be thorny!
Good luck and 
Merry Christmas!
DanK


----------



## chrisstef

Heres a better look at the handle. From a disston 12 plate. 









Im like a roast… Baste me (with knowledge).


----------



## donwilwol

I'd probably try to replace the horn. Flatten a spot and have at it. Get some creative juices flowing and recur the carvings.


----------



## chrisstef

Being that it came from my grandfather im most certainly going to try and fix the handle. Im pretty sure its an applewood handle after a little bit of sanding. Im most interested in the plate being its a 12 but a little time working on some handle rehab will be good for me as well. Ive got almost a dozen other saws that could really use some love.

Its funny how after a year or so of hanging around with you goons that my first attempt at restoring them looks like Ray Charles did it. I thank you guys for that. Back to work this saw will go.


----------



## shampeon

chrisstef, it's not dissimilar from repairing the horn on a plane tote. The trick is to cut a flat spot, then glue on a block of wood, hopefully matching the grain direction. The better the surface, the thinner the glue line, so I'd angle the cut so you can get a block plane in to smooth and flatten. Then shape it and recarve the details. Best of luck.


----------



## Brit

+1 on what Don said. Check this out Chrisstef.


----------



## chrisstef

Yea its cutting the flat spot that troubles me. I can make a thin straight cut or i can make an L shaped cut. 2 glue surfaces or one longer one? 2 joint lines or one? I guess i could try the thin long cut and if it doesnt work out i can go for making 2 cuts. Thanks for letting me talk that out.


----------



## donwilwol

I would think one straight line would be less visible especially if you can keep it with the grain.


----------



## chrisstef

And easier to join Don. Im pickin up what your layin down brother.


----------



## DanKrager

I missed the strength of your sentimental connection…yes a single surface created by a razor sharp slick or wide chisel, confirming flat by a 90" light pass checking for curvature should do it. 
+1 DonW
DanK


----------



## chrisstef

Dan. Just reread my post and that came across all wrong

Im all for any info out there on the parts. This saw was actually my grandfathers so im gonna keep it as is just for sentimental reasons but im all about learning what would be original and what might have been changed.

^ thats what i meant to say


----------



## donwilwol

I just couldn't leave it behind!!


----------



## racerglen

Don, a beauty, should clean up realy well !
love the old art displayed that way .


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Oh, I like that! Guess we need to talk, yes.


----------



## bandit571

Since i am broke (no cash on hand) I had to let these three go by the other day..









Even had to walk past the old bow saw….









There was another stash of saws at another display, as well…


----------



## chrisstef

Made the cut on the horn nub.


----------



## donwilwol

It already looks better


----------



## Brit

NOT THERE Chrisstef. LOL. Only joking. Good job.


----------



## chrisstef

Dont make me come after you Andy


----------



## thedude50

nice little gentz saw


----------



## CL810

Rescue project for Don Yoda. A friend recently purchase an old farm. They discovered an old mill and small barn full of wood. Probably about 2,000 board feet of oak, cherry and walnut wood insect damaged beyond use. Very sad. I'd say this blade has been exposed for about 25 years.

Very Yoda worthy!


----------



## donwilwol

that blade may need sharpening before you fire it up!


----------



## bandit571

Looks like a tooth or two is miissing, as well. look about 3 o'clock on the "dial'.


----------



## Arminius

Blade that big, might be worth flying Andy in with a truckload of 600


----------



## wormil

Early Christmas present to myself. A George H Bishop B-80 rip saw, 5.5 teeth per inch. It may not look like much but I finally own a rip saw. This one has no real collector value as the original horn was broken and replaced and it is also missing two teeth but it's very sharp and should be a good user saw. Tomorrow I'll test drive it. Hopefully the seller doesn't mind me using his picture as my phone camera sucks.


----------



## Brit

Very nice Rick. That should keep you warm in the winter months.


----------



## donwilwol

looking good Rick.


----------



## need2boat

Hey Rick,

Don't worry about it. Bishop totally infringed on the patent when they made it so you might as well do the same with copyright law on that picture. 

I've not own one of the Bishop copies but have had them in my hands. They shaped the handle around the thumb-hole a little different, kind of like it.

JFF


----------



## lysdexic

Nice Rick. It looks as if if have some etch left as well.


----------



## wormil

There is enough etch left to read and the horn repair was well done, surprisingly the saw is sharp too. Someone took care of it for most of it's life. I only paid about $22 shipped.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Etch for the Atkins Perfection, Silver Steel No. 53 hand saw.


----------



## donwilwol

Sweet.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Ain't it though???

Looking forward to having a good pair of Atkins handsaws in the til, and I'll get there by the end of the holiday season. The crack is again glued and in the vise, Atkins medallion at the ready. This saw handle also needs a horn replacement, and I have just the motivation (and applewood) to pull it off.

Ah, shop work in the queue. Ain't it grand?


----------



## CL810

Rick started a discussion (comment #2256) about double sided saws. I thought this might be of interest to some.


----------



## bandit571

Been cleaning a few handsaws…









Maybe the medallion will show up this week..









A disston "Plywoodie' handled 8ppi 26" long $1 saw.









A Warranted Superior saw, with a chunk of Sycamore for a tote. Would this be a "Two Tone Saw" like stanley's line of planes?


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Medallion is in the mail, Bandit!


----------



## bandit571

Yours in that saw yet? I have my saw all shined up, and waitng. need to sharpen the dang thing , after the holidays. I get my bench moved in during Honda's Shutdown. Nothing goes on around here when all them white uniforms get two weeks off, with pay! And their yearly bonus check. No, I don't work at Honda.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Not yet- no shop time, handle in the re-glue position for 2 days now. Might have to do some hole filing to ensure zero stress on this twice-glued tote in the replacement blade. Being deliberate, don't want to do a third tour…


----------



## DonBroussard

I've visited the Disstonian Institute for help in identifying this saw. It has a 26-inch plate and currently has 15 ppi (very, very fine teeth and it's sharp). Overall length is 28". The closest match I see is the Disston D-95 Masterpiece. The plate has a 60 degree bottom angle at the heel, and the tote matches the Masterpiece but it is wood, but not rosewood. The screw sets are aluminum. The medallion does not look like any medallion pictured on the Disstonian Institute's site. The circle of small circles does not appear on any of the medallions shown there. The tote does not appear to have been altered or repaired. There are no etchings, stamps or other markings on the plate. It also has a hanging hole near the toe. It's also possible that it's a Frankensaw.

Here are a few pictures:




























Any guesses out there? Thanks in advance for the help.


----------



## bandit571

is this one close??









Mine is only an 11ppi, and a plain handle.









Mine was made about the time HK Porter was taking overDisston. I'll try tomorrow to get a few better pictures..


----------



## DonBroussard

@bandit-That one's real close to mine. Same tote shape; four spanners; angled plate; hanging hole. It looks like my saw's pointed heel is a bit longer than mine, but it could just be camera angles. Does your medallion look like mine? I can't tell from the pics if your spanners are aluminum/aluminium (for Andy!).

I wonder if the carvings on my tote are DIY'd?


----------



## bandit571

Disston made a line of saws like "Townsman" and Rancher. I had one of each of those. No etch, just a "silk-screen" name in black. They did have a hanger hole as well. Medallion hasn't rusted one bit. Very shiny metal, even the bolts. Some did have that "Wheat" carving. I think the one I have just was sharpened a few more times than yours. I'll try tomorrow to get some better shots, hopefully I don't have any more camera issues.


----------



## DonBroussard

I cleaned the saw I posted yesterday (Post 2366). I did note that when I disassembled the saw, that the plate had extra holes and the medallion hole was elongated. To me, that suggests that the tote and plate are not matched. I did recheck the point count and it's a 12 ppi, not 15 ppi as I originally reported. The owner told me it was a 15.

I soaked the plate in Evaporust-soaked paper towels and pulled it out after about 18 hours of soaking, after which I used my RO sander with 80, 120 and 220 grit. I was very pleased at how shiny the plate came out. I also sanded the tote and then applied Minwax Gunstock 261 stain (it's what I had on hand). After the tote was dry, I reassembled the saw. The only thing left is to polish the plate with Johnson's Paste Wax.

By the way, the saw belongs to an older man who was a carpenter back in the day. I mentioned to him that I had just bought a Foley-Belsaw Sharp-All, and he gave me the saw to practice on. My plan is to clean it up and return the saw back to him in better condition than when he gave it to me. I hope he's pleased. I have an old, plastic handled saw that I can practice on. I didn't want to ruin his good saw learning how to sharpen, especially with those tiny teeth.










This is the "before" picture . . .










. . . and this is the "after" picture.










This pic shows the extra holes in the plate. The holes used are circled with a Sharpie.


----------



## donwilwol

He should be pleased. It came out nice.


----------



## Brit

Nice job Don.


----------



## DonBroussard

@Don W; @Brit-Thanks for the encouragement. Any ideas as to its identity?


----------



## bandit571

The Rancher?









or, the Towsman?









But not a D-23









too any bolts..


----------



## DonBroussard

@bandit-The Rancher and the Townsman are contenders, as well as the Frankendisston. The Rancher has similar carvings to mine, and the spanners look aluminum too. Mine has one additional carved branch. I agree with ruling out a D-23.


----------



## donwilwol

I thin it's o e oc the newer models to. I'd say the tote may not be original to the plate.


----------



## bandit571

Smitty: Package recieved, Thank you! Medallion already installed.

Next, need to sharpen that saw! Kind of dull, must have been awhile since the last sharpening.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

^Excellent!


----------



## GMatheson

This is a Christmas present from the wife which is odd since she keeps saying I have too many saws already. It's a pre1917 disston D8. Handle was in rough shape with a fancy little copper repair done to it at one point. The saw is 10tpi and seems to have been sharpened quite a bit I think but it still has lots of life left.



















I cut off the broken parts of the handle and glued on a few pieces of cherry, cut them close to shape I wanted then filed and sanded til it was comfortable.










Now I'm wondering if I should patch up the piece that's chipped out at the front of the handle or not. I'm leaning towards leaving it as is and calling the handle done minus finishing and start cleaning up the blade and brass.


----------



## OnlyJustME

Looks like the top horn is close to an end grain glue up. Will that hold well enough?

Really nice shaping and forming. hope mine come out that nice


----------



## donwilwol

Very nice G. I see nothing wrong with calling it done.


----------



## Brit

Nice job G. Plenty of life in the old girl yet.


----------



## CL810

+1 Don. Great work G.


----------



## GMatheson

OJM the top horn is around 45* to the end grain. I'm pretty sure the joint will hold. I spent a few minutes wet sanding the plate from 220 up to 800.









The etch is still looking pretty clear









(Sorry for all the upside down and sideways pictures. My phone likes to flip everything on me)


----------



## donwilwol

wow, that came out nice.


----------



## GMatheson

Thanks Don. It's not as shiny as Andy's work but its shiny enough for me.

Got the brass all cleaned up. Just need to finish the handle and give it a sharpening and put it back to work.


----------



## AnthonyReed

Gmatheson what is the "wet" part of your sanding? WD-40, 3in1, mineral spirits? Please pardon my ignorance.


----------



## DaddyZ

GMatheson

Looks like there might have been another Etch on that blade, Unless its just the lighting??


----------



## OnlyJustME

Not just the lighting there G.
Referenced from http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/etch.html









I've just recently been looking at some saws from my wife's great grandfather and found out one is a D-115
it has this etch but this is not a picture of mine. Wish it was but mine is faded under a lot of patina.









So is there a way to polish/clean up the saw blade without losing the etch? Or make the etch more visible? I want to restore it but not if it's going to kill the etches.


----------



## GMatheson

Tony- the "wet" part I use is mineral spirits usually but sometimes I will use an all purpose cleaner like Simple Green

And DaddyZ you have a good eye. There is more to the etch but I couldn't get a clear picture of it. This is a picture of the full etch pulled from Disstonian Institute. 









(Guess I was kinda slow writing my reply and got beat to the punch)

I have read about ways to brighten up etches but I can't remember what they were right now. That's a really fancy etch on that 115. Hope you can restore it and save the etching


----------



## AnthonyReed

Got it. Thank you Gmath.


----------



## OnlyJustME

Got some pictures of the saws from the in-laws. lol 









Some close ups of the D-115


----------



## Arminius

One way to save an etch during the sanding process is to use gun bluing. Here is an article from WKFineTools by Bob Smalser which describes the technique. I have tried it twice, once to amazing effect, and one which was a failure, so I have not tried it on any saw I particularly care about.


----------



## OnlyJustME

Dinner delay. 
The 2 bottom saws in the top pic need a lot more work. Looks like both of the handles were replaced at some point in time.
The biggest one doesn't even have saw nuts just pins to hold the handle to the plate. I tried just cleaning all the old gunk off the plate to see if it would reveal an etch or stamp but i have not found any. It looks like a 6ppi. and has a bit of the nib left.









The other currently has a plywood handle on it and the medallion says Disston on it. The configuration of the bolts makes it a D-7. It's in really rough shape and has been sharpened a lot. the plate looks like a snake on a dog leg. It will be a good one to practice straightening and sharpening on i guess.


----------



## GMatheson

Looks like you might be making a few handles in the near future OJM

I spent a bit of time putting some shellac on my repaired handle. I tinted the shellac with a bit of reddish aniline dye. A few coats in and the new cherry is starting to match the old apple.


----------



## AnthonyReed

Wow. Looks great. Your shaping is flawless.


----------



## lysdexic

G- that came out WAY better than I ever thought it could. Really good job.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

GMath, that's looking great! A fine save, Sir!


----------



## OnlyJustME

Thanks for the link Arminius.
I guess so GMath, unless you want to make a couple more? 
Great job on that tote.!


----------



## chrisstef

Im dreading a tote repair on my Disston 12. Ive got a chunk of white oak glued on and im deathly afraid to shape it, its gonna be a toughy but ill get it done.

You fellas are an inspiring bunch.


----------



## CL810

I found this beast at a flea market today. Disston #4 mitre saw.










28" blade length, 4" below the back, 16 ppi. Saw is sharp which suprised me.



















I keep wondering why a mitre saw so long?


----------



## Gshepherd

GM, Impressive handle restore…...

It s nice to see the saws getting some attention…


----------



## lysdexic

I covet the Disston miter.


----------



## OnlyJustME

Nice gem there Clayton. Second Chance Saws has one for sale for $130 already professionally restored and sharpened of course. I would guess that the longer blade length allowed for less strokes which means a cleaner cut by reducing the saw marks.

So where is this flea market?


----------



## Brit

+1 on what Scot said. That is a great find. As you can see below, you could buy them up to 32" long.


----------



## donwilwol

Come on Stef, have at that white oak!

CL, that's a great find. Its in wonderful shape.

G, you've been producing some great stuff lately!

Matt, you've got some work to do


----------



## planepassion

CL810 that is a beautiful miter saw you picked up. Looks to be in fantastic shape. I hope you have a miter box to go with it.

After using 24" and 27" miter saws, I've come to prefer longer saws. The reason is that when I get into a sawing rhythm I sometimes take too long a stroke and the tip comes out of the rear support post. So I end up having to take shorter strokes…which feels "choppier"...which also uses a smaller number of the teeth…which require more strokes to complete the cut. Moreover, I'm dulling the fewer teeth that are used, faster and have to sharpen more frequently.

I've secured my miter box to my utility bench which is not very deep. So the only advantage I've found for the shorter miter saw is that I can deploy it in a more confined space. Whereas with a 30" or 32" saw (which I would prefer) the tip would hit the wall behind the utility bench as it's now set up.


----------



## CL810

OK, the long mitre saw makes sense now. Don't know what I'm going to do with it. I'm not a collector so I only want to keep it if I'll make a user of it.

Is this one of those tools that once you have it you wonder how you ever got along without it?


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

You'll save the $ on the other end, because mitre boxes come up without saws alot of times. Having one means you've got a match. Yes, they're nice (mitre boxes) to have. They're also somewhat sticky (I have five at this point…)


----------



## bandit571

That Atkins saw done, yet?


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Oh, Yeah! Thought I posted that, Bandit! I didn't??










Medallion isn't an oh-so-perfect fit (hole is mangled, so I think it was tampered with, hence affecting the fit) but looks quite awesome to me!


----------



## DanKrager

I LOVE this saw handle! 
I still wonder what my supposed D7 really is. I'm suspecting it because an "official" D7 handle template doesn't come close to fitting. I'm beginning to accept that it is a frankensaw with a Disston medallion retrofit. 
My camera broke and a replacement is had, so maybe I can get some pics soon. Maybe an Atkins plate?

DanK


----------



## bandit571

IF my bench arrives from the old shop this weekend, I have about six or seven saws to rehab, mainly in the rebuilt saw vise. Don't have the back porch bench anymore, either, so need a spotlight to see down there…









No wonder that Eugor ran away…


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Dan, I have another to refurb when time permits. It was a gift from a fellow LJ: #53 Atkins Perfection. One will be rip, the other xcut…










I'm a sucker for pairs!


----------



## OnlyJustME

Definitely some purdy, fancy pants totes on them old Atkins.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

We're all about Fancy Pants Totes here in Southern Illinois, Right Hog?


----------



## planepassion

Smitty, I know what you mean…miter boxes breed like rabbits. And you are dead on about the saw. I'm still looking to track down a good vintage miter saw 5" deep to go with the Goodell Pratt Manufacturing CO. saw I picked up for $8.00 at a garage sale last year. Even been thinking about having Lie Nielson make a custom one for me.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Brad, I have the GP mitre box. Does yours have the work holding pieces with it?

EDIT: Disregard! Yours IS the box that we talked about, re: the parts! It's all a giant circle. 

You're still searching for a proper saw? That stinks…


----------



## Brit

So I was working on restoring a lovely little Disston D8 20" panel saw today.





I was in the kitchen polishing the bolts and I stopped to show my wife how nice and shiny they were. Instead of the wow I was expecting she said:

"Keep rubbing, you can get them better than that. I want to make sure I get the maximum value for your tools when you peg it."

Charming!


----------



## donwilwol

you better start checking your tea for anti freeze Andy!


----------



## racerglen

Oye !
Andy 5X what Don said
;-)


----------



## DonBroussard

Andy-Sounds like having a spouse who knows the value of your tools could be a double-edged sword . . .


----------



## bandit571

Beware of "Old Lace' because of what goes with it…....


----------



## OnlyJustME

I had a stanley miter box like yours Smitty though the saw had a beech? handle. It wasn't as old as yours but looked the same minus the SW. I foolishly sold it without thinking about it. wish i hadn't now.

Nice knowing ya Andy. . . .


----------



## planepassion

Not to worry Smitty. My motivation to have a machinist create the accessories for the GPManufacturing miter box is slowed by the lack of a proper saw. But I predict 2013 will be the year it all falls into place.

Andy,
I think you'll love the panel saw. You've got a beauty there and after one of your sharpenings I'll bet she'll slice the wood to your liking. It's nice to see a traditional english name stamped on your handle. I've seen all manner of names on this side of the pond including what sounded like a Polish one some time ago.

I hate to agree with your wife, but dude, based on the pictures you posted above, the brass could use a bit more polishing 

And I take it that "when you peg it" is English slang for "when you kick the bucket"?


----------



## Brit

Oii - Those pictures were taken before I'd started.

...and you're right with your interpretation of 'peg it'.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

And remember, I'm up for a second set of machined parts… Making two is as easy as one when they get the machines set, I'm hoping. Let me know what the damage is when it happens, please!

Andy, I have a 26" Disston with a remarkably similar bolt pattern and handle, no etch, in need of Andification:


----------



## Brit

No problem Smitty, send it over mate. My 20" panel saw is now a 19.5" panel saw as I had to file 1/2" off the toe. It looked like some idiot had tried to open a tin of paint with it and kinked it. The toe is now the same shape as yours which is how it should be with just a little radius on the top corner, not a rounded toe like it was in the photo I posted above.


----------



## planepassion

I've got you covered Smitty! Two sets buddy.

Andy, the idiot who opened the paint can with your saw should have to run the gauntlet on this blog, each of us armed with the handsaw of our choosing to give the bloke a hearty whack as he runs by.

"Andification"? Have you hung your shingle for Andy Sawyer's Saw Shoppe? I can almost picture the logo in my head…


----------



## planepassion

My Dad sent me this "Before Chainsaws" email that's going around. Thought that it was appropriate to this thread.

*Logging Monster Trees*
Today's post is an amazing look at a period of our history that wasn't that long ago involving the challenges loggers faced every day to earn their wages. Remember this the next time you think your job is demanding.
Before chainsaws were invented, the logging industry in the United States & Canada was a seriously challenging occupation and we are only talking about 125 years ago. In the Pacific Northwest there were forests full of monster trees and cutting them down was done by hand. A friend sent me these photos and I had to share them with you.










Look at the length of the two-man hand saw and heavy duty axes they used to drop these tremendous trees. It is almost inconceivable to think of cutting a tree this size with a hand saw.










The work required very strong men (and horses) working long days for minimal pay.
Could you imagine doing this to earn a living?










After a tree was finally felled it took a week or more to cut it up into sections that could be managed (somehow) and transported by train to a lumber yard.










Maneuvering the logs down the mountain to the train was a complex job. I didn't do any research on this, but I would be willing to bet that many men lost their lives doing this dangerous work. One slip and a hunk of wood as big as a hotel is rolling your way! The other question that begs an answer is how did they get those logs onto the flatbeds of that train?










Hollowed out logs became the company's mobile office. Can you imagine stacking such logs to build a log home? Two courses would produce a 30′ ceiling. Maybe that's why it was easier to hollow out a tree.










A long time before anyone ever thought of a "mobile home or RV" hollowed out logs were also used to house and feed the logging crews.










We are accustomed to our modern conveniences like electricity and gasoline powered chainsaws, and it is always such a mind-boggling experience to see how such monumental tasks were performed before these conveniences appeared on the scene.
###


----------



## need2boat

A friend of mine sent me this same thing last year. The stories those guys must of had were amazing.

Joe


----------



## sprucegum

Do any of you handsaw geeks have any interest in a saw filing vice ? I have one that has been kicking around in the shop for years, I can send or post pictures if anyone is interested. First $25 plus flat rate priority shipping takes it (provided I can make it fit)


----------



## Brit

Thanks for posting those Brad. I've seen most of them before, but it is great to see them again.


----------



## donwilwol

cool pic Brad. Similar ones get posted every now and then, but they are fun to look at. I wonder how long it took those 2 guys to drop that tree?


----------



## OnlyJustME

cool pictures. Thanks Brad. I wonder how thick they leave the walls when they hollow it out and how long that took?


----------



## GMatheson

So just a little update on the saw I was working on a few days ago. It's now all back together and ready for sharpening.

*Before*









*After*








I like how the handle came out. After I finished with the shellacing I abused it with some steel wool and wax just to put some age back into the handle.


----------



## Brit

That came out great G.


----------



## lysdexic

Duly impressed GMath


----------



## CL810

Beautiful!


----------



## OnlyJustME

well done. hope mine come out that nice


----------



## Brit

Progress shot of my little D8. I've cleaned the plate and polished the brass and I've just started sanding the handle. There are some patches of deep pitting on the plate which will have to stay as they're too deep to sand out. It won't affect the use of the saw though. Also glued a split in the upper horn.


----------



## donwilwol

that's going to be sweet Andy.


----------



## terryR

GMath, great job! That's a gorgeous saw!

Andy, looking good as usual! You DO have an eye for the right saws to restore…


----------



## AnthonyReed

Wow Gmath!

Andy it is great to see you in action again. I still need to read your newest blog entry.


----------



## lysdexic

Andy, did you cut the toe square? If so, how? I don't understand how you cut this steel without making a real mess of it.


----------



## AnthonyReed

ScottyB - He described it some at comment #2428 above.


----------



## GMatheson

Thanks for the compliments guys.

I've had good luck cutting the saw plates using a little dremel with those tiny little cut-off wheels then hitting it with a file to smooth it.


----------



## Brit

Scott - On this occasion I only needed to remove about 3/8" from the toe, so I clamped the plate vertically between two pieces of MDF and used a big aggressive file to take it down quickly. Took about 5 minutes. I filed it until it was 90 degrees to the toothline, then with a smaller file I rounded the top corner.


----------



## lysdexic

Thanks. I was just wnodering becuase I may have a saw plate from which I may make scrapers and such.


----------



## donwilwol

Scott, I use a pair of sharp tin snips for cutting the plates.


----------



## Brit

Yeah, you can use a good pair of tin snips or an angle grinder / dremel cut-off wheel would work too. I've never had a need to do it myself, but it is only a bit of metal after all.


----------



## Brit

Tony said "I still need to read your newest blog entry."

No rush Tony, we've just been killing time until you get there.


----------



## DanKrager

This is a great thread and I've learned a lot. I will continue to learn as I now have a camera (again) and can post pics with questions. Don maybe should have added "...storage" to the title.

I am resurrecting some old saws and need a place to put them. The catch is that my tool stands are modular and do not (readily) accommodate the vertical setup for saw storage. All the tills I've seen so far are vertical. Why? Has any one seen or made a horizontal one? 
DanK


----------



## donwilwol

If you go back fat enough Dan you should find several tills made. To bad a thread isn't easier to search.


----------



## OnlyJustME

I would venture to guess that if the till was horizontal the saws would have to sit on the teeth which could dull them quicker since if you lay them on the side they would sag and could become bowed if that way long enough or sit on the spine which would put the teeth up and more dangerous? Just a few thoughts. Vertical saves space too.


----------



## donwilwol

Actually Matt, almost all tool chest tills store them horizontally.


----------



## OnlyJustME

Good point. i was thinking tool chests hanging on the wall. good thing i was just guessing. lol


----------



## donwilwol

Mines vertical against the wall to, but I have seen horizontal tills. It depends on your space I guess.


----------



## thedude50

my tills are unfinished so all the saws hang on pegs until further notice.


----------



## DanKrager

Dude, I guess all you have to do to make your till is nail some boards together (nicely) around the pegs. Viola! 
Don, I've read this thread from the beginning (once) and the only horizontal tills I can remember, are as you pointed out, within a chest. I might be able to adapt that notion, but in my case the saws would have to slide in like making a cut. ??? I'm looking for ideas because I am going to have to make some design decisions soon.
Plus several +++ on the search forum for topic content notion.
Thanks in advance for your help!
DanK


----------



## thedude50

That kind of work wont do it in my shop dan dovetails all the way or at least box joints. I am making my small saw till out of 150 year old old growth hemlock the stuff is amazing to work with


----------



## chrisstef

Dan K - I made a horizontal till for my saws by simple cutting kerfs in a piece of lumber at a slight angle on the table saw. I can then stack the hand saws in a row without them tipping over. I just alternate whichc side the handle is on.

Check out my shop pics … pic #1 i think, just above the drill press.


----------



## Brit

If anyone in Europe is looking for some nice saws, I would recommend these two currently available on eBay.co.uk. They are both offered at a Buy It Now price of £15 each. Both of them would be easy restores. The teeth aren't shown on the backsaw, but my guess is that is will only need sharpening. The teeth on the handsaw need jointing, re-shaping and sharpening. I have no interest in these saws as I have enough already, but they look like genuine bargains that with a little work could give years of good use. I have no affiliation with the seller, just wanted to point out a bargain. Don't dither as I'm sure they won't be there long at that price.

Sellers photo:









http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vtg-antique-Moses-Eadon-Tenon-Saw-Sheffield-Cast-Steel-/300844480302?pt=UK_Collectable_ToolsHasdware_RL&hash=item460bba772e

Seller's photo









http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Spear-Jackson-Sheffield-88A-Spearior-Saw-Mermaid-Vtg-/290842010285?pt=UK_Collectable_ToolsHasdware_RL&hash=item43b788e2ad


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Broke a saw yesterday while cutting tenons in cherry… The lower (thin) 'spar' of my DE backsaw is now cracked through… Damn…


----------



## Brit

That's a damn shame Smitty. Fixable?


----------



## planepassion

*sigh* RIP DE backsaw. It's good you didn't post the pictures. It would have been too graphic Smitty…When is the service?


----------



## thedude50

Joe can replate the saw and it will be as good as new


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Yeah, Andy, fixable.

You know, we've spent a lot of time talking saw handle repair on this thread. It's the first time I've ever been using one and broke it. Kinda hit me in the gut.

I'll pull it apart (gently) and get glue in the break with dental floss, and get 'er fixed up before using it further. Break really should disappear. And the next time I cut tenons on cherry, I'm reaching for the 14" tenon saw, "Cincinnati Saw Company," it's a monster.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Brad, I come not to bury DE, but to praise her…


----------



## Brit

I know the feeling Smitty. I had to fix a diagonal split across the top horn of the little Disston D8 panel saw I'm working on. I wish I could say it was due to the neglect and misuse of the previous owner, but the truth is I dropped it and found that it didn't bounce. SH!T HAPPENS.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Ouch, Andy. That psuques…


----------



## planepassion

Here's some pics of the D7 handle I restored/doctored. It's one of the several handsaws I picked up at a handsaw honey hole garage sale.



















And the after reveal…



















Detailed blog of the repair can be found here.


----------



## lysdexic

Well done. I really enjoyed your blog entry.


----------



## terryR

Brad, nice job on that beautiful saw! I think from the handle design and bolt pattern that saw is an old Disston No.7 instead of the newer D-7. I just finished a no.7 handle a few months ago…

Definately a keeper!


----------



## terryR

Merry Christmas to me…been waiting to get these 2 saws in the same frame…









My shop sure needed a REAL table saw…got it…3hp Grizzly with all cast iron. Square outta the box.

The crosscut panel saw was another necessity as you can see here…circa.1890 Harvey Peace P37, with 2 patent dates. Already restored and sharpened by Joe at *Second Chance Saw Works*. Love this saw already!!!

But, will try to use it for special projects only…guess I need another x-cut!


----------



## AnthonyReed

Well done Brad. You have excellent blogs! Thanks for sharing.

Congrats Terry.


----------



## DanKrager

I've been working slowly on some saw restores, and to practice I dug out some saws that I can account for 60 years of their life. My camera broke so I don't have the before pics.
This is one my dad bought and used maybe twice, which is a good thing because the previous one looked like a cork screw. Nicely carved beech handle (I think). No names. Cleaned, antique oil several coats, and wax.









I'm gonna water it, fertilize it, and love it every day until it grows into a beautiful D8!








DanK


----------



## DanKrager

This is a toy saw that I was given just before a dining room table leg was somehow shortened. It's just 18" OA and when sharp cuts as well as any saw. Notice the rust on it already. The handle is riveted on and I tried to clean it without taking it apart, but I may have to go back and take it apart. Pretty fancy handle for a toy! Again, no names. 








I showed it to my 5 year old grandson and said that when he is 8 he could have this saw, 63 years after it was given to me. He got pretty excited! Surprised me.
DanK


----------



## OnlyJustME

Just dont let your grandson near any wooden legs.


----------



## DanKrager

I couldn't resist setting this up while the real blade is in restoration. It is painted (almost like a stain)

wood








DanK

but most of the thin paint is worn off. Maple? There is a little problem of tear-out. Have to learn how to deal with that…


----------



## OnlyJustME

Nice vise DanK. I would expect them old bow saws to be Ash or Hickory but i don't know much about them.


----------



## lysdexic

Stumbled upon this picture.

It looks as though he is laughing at you Andy


----------



## Brit

*Terry* - That's a lovely panel saw and a lovely table saw but c'mon man, REAL it ain't. PREFERRED maybe, but surely these are real table saws:










*Dan* - I love your restoration on that compass saw and your novel way of displaying it. I've got no idea who made the little 18" saw, but I applaud you for promising it to your grandson when he's 8 years old. The last saw you posted prompted me to do some digging. At first I thought it was a Disston No. 47 which was made of maple and finished with a mahogany stain.










However, it isn't Disston at all. The giveaway is that the longer of the two frame sides extends further above the adjuster than the shorter side. On Disston saws it didn't. Also, Disston saws of this type had two rivets in the double brace while yours only has one rivet. That makes me pretty sure that your saw frame is one of the Atkins saws shown below.


----------



## Brit

*Scott* - Paul would have had every right to laugh at me considering the mess I made of my saw that day. However he is far to gracious for that. If only he could see me now. LOL.


----------



## bandit571

Might what that saw is up at the Antique Mall???









There was a couple Andy-items at that place…









A little green box??









Those are about as good as braces get at this place @ $12 each…

Oh, HANDSAWS!









Look closely, there ARE three there, and a Stanley Level. All are $5 a piece….


----------



## DanKrager

Thanks Brit. My blade is the plain tooth one. I think you've nailed the ID. I'll look for an etching on the blade but I'm betting I won't find it because it's pretty rusty, so it probably wasn't blued. But not badly pitted. We'll see in a few days. I'll go easy in the middle just in case.
DanK


----------



## Brit

Actually if you look at the lefthand side of that photo Scott, you can see a white pole which is an anglepoise lamp. Paul asked me if I would like a bit more light and I said that would be nice. He came back with that lamp. He then asked where I wanted it and proceeded to drill a hole through the bench where I said, which made me laugh.


----------



## Brit

*Bandit* - That's my kind of shop.


----------



## need2boat

Hey Terry,

Good to see that fine peace in use. Disston may get all the credit, but I'll take a Richardson or Perfect handle Peace any day.

Can't wait to get the bench handle. Been checking the PO box daily. Nice to be getting something other then a saw. ;-p

Joe


----------



## Deycart

Hey guys I dug this saw up today and I had a few questions about it. I have never heard of a G.E Jennings & CO. Saw. Have you guys ever heard anything about it? About all I could figure out is that it existed around 1908 in New York. Its a cross cut panel saw and is missing a few teeth. I picked it up for 1.50 I was wondering if you think its worth fixing up. The tote is in pretty good condition, but it has some dry cracks in the handle and was wondering if any of you have fixed problems like this to any satisfaction.

It feels GREAT in the hand and I really want to do this saw justice. I already have a few X cut saws but I don't have a fine one. I want to use it for cutting hard woods, mostly maple and popular and leave a fine cut. What do you recommend for the tooth count, rake and fleam?


----------



## donwilwol

I think its C.E.Jennings and i think it will make a fine user.

I've got one a little different, but its my go to saw


----------



## Brit

*Deycart* - As far as sharpening it is concerned, I can't tell how long it is from the picture, but I'm assuming it is 20-22". I would sharpen it to 13 PPI (12 TPI) with 15 degrees of rake and 24 degrees of fleam. That will give you a fine crosscut saw suitable for the woods you mention.


----------



## Deycart

Don- You're right, I looked at it again and it is a C. E. Jennings saw.

Brit- I just pulled it back out and it is 20 inches.


----------



## Deycart

Brit- What is that green stuff you use to fight rust?


----------



## bandit571

I believe it is called "Simple Green".


----------



## Brit

No, not Simple Green, although I'm told that will work too. The product I use is a gel made by Hammerite. I don't believe it is available in the US though. It is readily available in the UK and some other European countries. I did a review of it here.


----------



## OnlyJustME

What do you use to clean the saw handle if you dont want to sand the whole thing down?


----------



## donwilwol

Wet sand with blo is one way. Use steel wool.


----------



## mandatory66

Just picked up a very nice Atkins #51 26 inch, I want to sharpen it but it has a lot of set. I am new to sharpening and have done one saw with good success. I was wondering how to remove or reduce the set.I know that some set may come out during sharpening but this saw has a lot more than the sharpening will reduce. I was thinking of taking out the set on anvil but am afraid of breaking the teeth. There is so much set that the saw wobbles around in the kerf. Need some advise.


----------



## thedude50

rub the sides of the teeth with a diamond plate


----------



## bandit571

I think one could use an actual saw set, set it to the "new" set one wants, and work one's way along the saw.


----------



## donwilwol

Or just hit both sides with a fine file


----------



## mandatory66

Hey Bandit good suggestion. I just used the saw set to straighten a few teeth that were bent toward me, the set straightened them easily. I can just work along the saw as you said, I will leave a little set in so I can see which way the teeth were bent so after sharpening I can bent the teeth in the same direction and not work harden the steel to much. I had thought about filing them but the set is so much I would have to file a lot of the teeth away. I doubt the saw was ever sharpened and I didn't want to reshape the teeth. Thanks to all who have responded, this is a good place to hang out.


----------



## Brit

*Matt* - The product I use to gently clean a saw handle if I don't want to sand it is Liberon Wax and Polish Remover. You apply it with some 0000 steel wool, let it soak in for a few minutes and wipe it off with a clean lint free cloth. You'd be surprised how much grime and dirt comes off, but it won't damage the original finish.










*mandatory66* - Stoning the teeth or filing the teeth to remove a lot of set is not really a good idea because you are not actually removing the set at all. What you are actually doing is reducing the size of the kerf that the saw cuts by thinning the metal on the outside of the teeth which will only make them weaker. Stoning the teeth should only be done as a means of dressing the teeth if the saw does not track straight and you are sure it is the saw and not your technique that is at fault. One or two light passes on the side that the saw is wandering towards is all it takes. Bandit's suggestion of using the saw set is one way of removing a lot of excess set. Alternatively you can use a hammer on an anvil to reduce the set. Lastly, you can fold a piece of photocopy paper over the teeth and then tighten a machinists vise to squash the teeth. Since paper doesn't compress, the teeth will embed into the paper and when you remove the saw from the vise, the remaining set on the saw will be equal to the thickness of the photocopy paper, usually about .002". Of course you need to use a vise with smooth metal jaws.

By the way it is usual to set the teeth before you sharpen them. This is because when you set a tooth, the saw set not only bends the tooth out but also twists the tooth slightly. If you sharpen before you set the teeth, the fleam angle you sharpened them at will change. The normal process is this:


Joint the teeth with a file until the file has just touched the top of every tooth.
Re-shape the teeth if necessary.
Set the teeth.
Lightly joint the teeth again. (One or two passes). This light jointing serves two purposes. If you had to re-shape any of the teeth, this will ensure that the tops of the teeth are still in line prior to sharpening. Secondly, after jointing the teeth the first time, you effectively made the tops of the teeth horizontal from side to side. However after you set the teeth, the tops are no longer be horizontal because the act of setting them bends the teeth out. This light jointing corrects the tops of the teeth again to bring them back to horizontal.
Sharpen the teeth whilst maintaining your chosen rake, fleam and slope angles.

Hope that helps.


----------



## mandatory66

Britt,
Thanks for the info, I have taken the set out of the teeth and did nothing else. the saw now tracks in the kerf like it had eyes what a difference. the saw is fairly sharp and cuts well but I will sharpen it. Your thoughts on filing the set away was why I was hesitant to file. From what i am observing I think .002 set would be perfect, I am using a Stanley 42 set at its lowest setting, it seems to add some set but I don't know how much. My other saw that I sharpened at 12/25 cut well and with no binding and is a little aggressive and has to much tearout on soft woods.
Cutting Red Oak is fine. I have not used slopping gullets. Thanks for the instruction on the steps, I will probably omit the reshaping of the teeth as they look fine.


----------



## need2boat

Hey Terry,

Cheers man. The handle came today and it's perfect! Well done. 200% better then the metal handle. I gota find room for a lathe!



















Oh I use that vise for knocking off backs so It's saw related.

Joe


----------



## OnlyJustME

Thanks for the info Andy. I'll know for next time now. I tried to find it in your blogs but there were too many of them for the time i had. lol Slow reader. I just went to town with a tooth brush and purple simple green. Took off a lot of grime and upon further inspection it looked like someone at some point took it to a belt sander so the sides of the handle didn't have any finish anymore anyway. Ended up sanding most of it after drying it. I guess i'll post a blog on it with more pictures another night (no time right now) but here is what i got.

A Wheeler Madden & Clemson #2 made some where around 1895 (maybe a bit earlier) and a display box… uhh, i mean miter box.









Just $20 off Clist and only had to drive 40 minutes to get it. It's a 12" blade with 14 ppi.

Here is how it looks after a day of restoration with one application of thinned BLO










There was a lot more pitting under all that black than i was hoping. It's still usable though i think.
I do need a lot more practice on sharpening. Someday i'll be able to make Andy proud.


----------



## terryR

Matt, looking good, bud! I really like that used color of the ?beech handle…I have spent too much time trying to remove that 'asthetical oldness' with sandpaper…gonna change my ways! Ordered some of Andy's magic wax and polish remover last night…

Thanks, Joe, I'm glad the handle fit your sweet lil vice! Forget about buying a lathe…just send me a sketch of anything you want turned! I've still got rusty saws that need sharpening.


----------



## need2boat

I do my best to keep the restoration on the low key side and have tried my fair share of products like most I would guess. Over all I've found lacquer thinner works great, the problem being it works maybe to great, or quickly. So to cut down the speed you can mix half-denatured alcohol & half-lacquer or a combination to slows it down.

Currently I've been using with good results Minwax Antique Refinisher










You can find it just about anywhere in the US, Lows, Homedepo, Walmart, and my local hardware and lumberyards both sell it. The price is a bit more then mixing your own but if you're cleaning other tools It's a simpler way to go.

Plus Minwax was founded in Brooklyn NY and now hails from the fine state of NJ not far from me!

Joe


----------



## need2boat

I should add Minwax will remove finish if used heavy handed. I've found however if I just wipe it on and off it really does a nice job of just cleaning the grime.

Joe


----------



## WhoMe

I'm too lazy to loo back in the archives but I am finally going to break down and build a saw vise so I can sharpen/restore some of my saws back to nice usable form. 
Anyone know of some plans for a basic vise out there. I kind of have an idea of what they look like and what I would be building but I am looking for guidelines regarding dimensions. Like length, height of the jig and maybe the sizing of the jaws. I am sure that good old 3/4 plywood would work find for the main jaws but suggestions on what the smaller ones should be made out of? 
I figured I would ask here since some of you are pros at sharpening. And, I am not looking to buy a official metal one. I have scrap wood and that is free….
My plan is to sharpen both the large 20"+long hand saws and the smaller dovetail/panel saws with the folded backs.

Thanks.

P.s. Yea, I know, the search function is my friend…. and I will use that too but I figured real time advice is good too.


----------



## Arminius

WhoMe

I am nearing the end of this one

A bit more complex than most, but it is a 'do it once' project for me.


----------



## donwilwol

Andy's vice


----------



## ksSlim

Don-Thanks for posting the link to Andy's vise.
Great design, simple materials, genius.
Thanks Again. I have four or five legacy metal vises and I always cuss them on longer saws.


----------



## WhoMe

Wow, you guys are quick. I haven't even had a chance to do a search….
Arminius, Don, thanks for posting those links. Those are WAAAAYYY fancier than what I was looking to build. And both builders should be proud of such excellent work. 
Having said that. both are what I was looking for and I have already bookmarked the links to read through them and figure out what I am going to make that will be much more simple to build on my end.

Thanks again.


----------



## Mosquito

if Andy's was too complex, mine was pretty simple
http://lumberjocks.com/projects/73469

I have since added non-slip drawer liner to the jaws to help stop vibrations


----------



## donwilwol

I'm looking at getting some new files. I'm looking at the LN or Lee Valley. Anybody have a preference? I think part of my problems have been crapping files, and its time for me to get serous with a couple of my saws.

Any file advice will be appreciated.


----------



## Mosquito

I've been satisfied with the 3-4 times I've used my LN files, but I haven't tried anything else


----------



## donwilwol

the thing I liked about the LV files were they made by Grobet of Switzerland. I have no idea what that means, but LN don't give any kind of name.

I forgot about your vice Mos. I like it for its simplicity. I was going to try and modify it slightly to work with the twin screw vice.


----------



## Mosquito

that design would probably work in the twin screw as long as the uprights fit between the screws. Just depends on the width between screws, I guess. I mean, technically that's what the workmate is, after all.

I was trying to think of how I could modify it to use in a leg vise, or if I'll just continue to use the workmate for sharpening


----------



## bandit571

I think mine was even simpler…..


----------



## Arminius

Don - I believe LN are Grobet as well, though I believe they have sold Bahco in the past. In any case, both are top notch. I have a smattering of both, and can't tell much of a difference. Both are far superior to current Nicholsons.


----------



## ksSlim

Gorbet files are the best I've used since Nicholson started have theirs off coast.


----------



## OnlyJustME

my file is from india and probably not really a saw file but it worked out ok. i wouldn't recommend it for professional sharpening. I believe Sellers said Bahco were good for it.


----------



## WhoMe

Mos, now that is what I am talking about. simple ans will do the trick. Especially since I really don't foresee using my saws that much that they will need sharpening more than once or twice as long as I am woodworking. At least that is based on current/past projects and what I see as my future projects. BUT, if things change, who knows.


----------



## bandit571

I have been using a pile of OLD Blue or black (hard to read it) Diamond saw files. Still have a few left. Picked most of them up at "Thrift stores" sitting in old Coffee cans. take them home, after spending a couple dollars, clean them up, use them up.


----------



## DanKrager

Has anyone resharpened a file using acid? 
DanK


----------



## ksSlim

17% muratic seems to work, once. Stiff nylon "fingernail brush" works during use to unclog file teeth.
Been there, done there that. Early maintanence is better.


----------



## need2boat

Don, 
New files will do wonders and those of you who use the same file for 3 or 4 saws are just making more work for yourself. I bet you could cut a log with a butter knife but my times worth more then that. ;-)

In the past I've bought files from LN and TFWW and at this point buy direct. They both sell good files but I think they may stock slightly different sizes. Both companies stand behind what they sell so no worries on that.

I will say you can really go nuts with the sizing but the only thing I've found to be a big no-no is switching to a different size in progress but that's not a big leap. ;-) Also I tend to go with the smallest file possible for any given tooth.

Lastly I really like Skroo-zon file handles that are made by Maine Wood Concepts, TFWW sells them but you can find them a lot of places. They last, made in the USA, and the threaded insert works well.

I guess if I had to pick between the two I like TFWW better. Chrystil and Ben who work there are really nice and I guess since they are local to me it tips the scale.

I'm not sure but the shipping may be faster although you'd pay tax.


----------



## donwilwol

Thanks Joe. I'm not sure why I didn't even think of them (TFWW). I'll order a couple and see how I do.

I'm a bit stubborn. My wife calls me cheap, but its really not about the money, its about doing it myself. With that said, I've got a disston backsaw with a decent handle, but the steel back is pitted pretty bad and the plate is beyond return. I don't think its worth spending the money on a new plate, but how would making a new plate out of an old panel saw work? I don't mind the pits in the spline, it gives it some character.

And if one of the suggestions is "don't be so cheap" I've already heard it


----------



## need2boat

Hey Don.

I hear yea. If you want the enjoyment of doing it yourself there's nothing wrong with that. I'd be happy to sell you just the cut blank of spring steel 12" X 4" or 14" x 4" in .025 or .032. You'd need to clean the blue off, polish, tooth, joint, and sharpen. Your looking at 20.00 or less depending in which sized shipped.

That said there is nothing wrong with switching out the plate. You just need to be mindful of the plate thickness and how the handle is drilled. I cut down an 18" Disston plate for a customers 8" and it worked great. I'd do it more except I don't find a lot of backsaws with good plates and bad handles and backs. Most often it's the plate or handle.

I will add that sharping and cutting teeth in a new plate is easier. I think the files just cut the smooth steel better. I don't even use the retoother for saws 12" under.


----------



## donwilwol

Thanks Joe. I may take you up on that. I'll see how I do with the couple I have to do. I need to go back and reread Andy's post, but I'm pretty sure my problem has just been crappy files. I don't have a problem sharpening, just cutting new teeth.


----------



## need2boat

Getting the fundamentals down just takes time and practice . . but new files will go a long way.

Joe


----------



## Mosquito

I haven't tried retoothing yet, but I probably should. One of my back saws has varying sizes of teeth through its length


----------



## OnlyJustME

TFWW????


----------



## Mosquito

*T*ools *F*or *W*orking *W*ood
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

One down, one to go!!


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## lysdexic

Great pic Smit.


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## thedude50

I have been buying up old stock Nicholson on the bay they aren't cheep but they are good files they last a long time and then you toss them that is hard to get used to but they do about 10 saws and then they are toast. Some lesser files last for one saw blade or less.


----------



## CL810

This site has mint handles for Disston D-8 20" and 22" saws.


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## thedude50

my d8 has a thumb hole which I like very much Jim is a bit high priced on tools


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## DanKrager

So does mine (D8 has a thumb hole that I like). I've now cut handles out of a piece of cherry that looks so much like apple. Unusual grain from a backyard tree in South Bend IN. Now to remember to get pics of the blades before.
+1 on Jim Bode being expensive, but he also consistently has quality tools. I'm amazed how he finds them all.
DanK


----------



## shampeon

I cleaned up a Keen Kutter cross-cut saw. My special mix of dark walnut Danish oil plus cherry red TransTint for the handle:








And some sandpaper for the plate:









The plate must have been really rusty at one point, but it's usable and cleaner now.

Got another Keen Kutter K88 rip saw to work on next, but I need to be more careful to preserve the etch.


----------



## lysdexic

Very nice Ian.


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## chrisstef

So im trying my first handcut dovetails, im 3 sets deep. Laying out evenly spaced tails has been accomplished. My problem is when making the angled cuts for the tails im having trouble when my wrist cocks to the left particularly. Is it a dominant eye thing? Any tips out there?

My brain says i can spin the board around but id have to mark both sides and i suspect thats not the brightest idea.


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## DanKrager

I used a saw guide until my hand and arm "got the feel". It is simply a block of wood rabbeted to sit firmly with hand pressure on the end of the tail board (clamped in your vise) and big (tall) enough to guide the saw at the correct angle, but not so tall to interfere with the back rib on the saw. Simple, effective, and it is surprising how quickly your "muscle memory" picks it up. Don't throw it away because if you don't do it again for a long time, the memory fades and you will need a "refresher".

I made two from a 4×4 stick with a 3/4×3/4 rabbet on all four sides forming a sort of fat cross. This allows left and right angle swaps just by rotating the stick. One end is square, the other angled for the tail. You can also use it for starting the pin waste cuts. I made two, one for the 1:6 hardwood ratio and one for the 1:8 softwood ratio.
DanK


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## chrisstef

A guide might be the the ticket Dan. My muscle memory isnt half bad but i need to start doing things the right way before i form bad habits. Lord knows i dont need any more of those lol. Ill do some searchin for some shop made guides i can replicate. Thanks brah.


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## DanKrager

I can post pictures of what I'm describing, but I have to please SWMBO first by eating her nice breakfast! 
The hard part is remembering after I eat!
DanK


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## chrisstef

That would be awesome Dan. Trying not to slide into a breakfast coma isnt always easy. Good luck.


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## DanKrager

OK. Sweet potato fries, scrambled eggs, sausage, orange juice, coffee, water…I guess I really did make her happy this morning with my woodwork!
These guides are as simple as any shop made or commercial product, to use and make. 


















Good luck!
DanK


----------



## chrisstef

Much thanks Dan. On the immediate to do list! Does it get awkward when you have to cut on the left hand side of the guide?


----------



## DanKrager

Nope. I just switch arms! Or turn around and do it behind my back… LOL
Really, I've not seen the need to cut left handed. Couldn't do it if I tried. You can always find a way to position for right hand use, even if it means using a piece of scrap beside the good piece to hold the guide more firmly. Most often you just turn the board around and flip the guide.
DanK


----------



## chrisstef

Hmm so turning the board around is acceptable? Wouldnt you have to lay out both sides of your board? I think ive seen it suggested that you should do all your cuts from the same side of the board but id be happy to be wrong about that


----------



## Mosquito

You can do whatever you want, 'Stef… Typically, you want to cut into the outside face of the board, since it leaves a cleaner cut, and you can watch what you're doing more carefully, and not over cut your base line. With a sharp saw, and being careful enough, it shouldn't be an issue.


----------



## chrisstef

Right on Mos. ill keep at it and get em licked yet. Im gonna try a bunch of different methods and see which one works for me.


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## wormil

I struggled cutting from one side then switched to the Roy Underhill way, mark 3 sides and only saw what you can see. My cutting has improved considerably since.


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## Mosquito

Depending on what they're for, sometimes I just mark the end grain, and free hand the angles. I'm not 100% consistent that way, but I'm working on it lol


----------



## chrisstef

Rick - you mean mark the end grain and both faces?


----------



## DanKrager

With a guide like this all you really need are the tail layouts on the end grain (mark the waste) and a base line to saw to. (rotate the guide 90 degrees in the first picture for sawing tail sides. I showed it wrong…  
A scrap board same size next to the work piece will allow you to hold the guide in place on the last cuts better without turning the workpiece around.
DanK


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## chrisstef

Instead of cutting all the tails from one side i flipped the board. Cutting the pins i cut just inside the knife strike. Im kinda stoked. Thanks for everyones help and advice.


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## wormil

chrissteph, exactly. I imagine once you're practiced you don't need to do that but I'm not that practiced yet. So I mark both sides and the end grain then start sawing at the corner and only the lines I can see then I flip the board and saw the other line. Easier done than said. Saw what you can see.


----------



## OnlyJustME

Now that's some good tail action.


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## terryR

Chris, noticable improvement in a week! Good job…

You aren't practicing on cherry are ya?


----------



## chrisstef

Thanks Terry. I wish i had enough cherry to practice on but its just a piece of pine. My next ones ill step up to poplar.


----------



## terryR

Oh yeah, the coffee is kicking in now, and I recognize the pine…jeez…how could I mis ID pine in the middle of a pine bench build? 

Anyhow, I love ya, bro…just watching you practice a hand cut joint till it's right is pleasing! I hope to try my first DT joints in a month or so…have been saving YOUR photos so I can compare mine, and not feel too bad when I have gaps the first few times.  no router in my shop…

Hey, what sort of saws are you using? just curious…and I like saw talk. Ooops, that may be a phrase coined and copyrighted by Andy? How much do I owe for using it???


----------



## chrisstef

Im gettin there little by little. That one took me about 45 minutes. Im using a set of veritas carcass saws i just bought. Stef likey. Glad i could be some sort of inspiration in my trials here.


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## Brit

Terry - That will be £10 in the tool fund please and there was I thinking you were saying you liked my blog. (


----------



## AnthonyReed

If you are gang sawing the tails doesn't that make flipping the board/s less of an option? There would be the chance that during the flip the boards would lose congruity, no?

Good progress there Stef; it's coming along quickly. Stef when cutting the left angles are you staying in the position you were in when you cut the right angle or are you taking a step the left and realigning your shoulder/body with the cut?


----------



## chrisstef

Tony - i did the board spin on that last set, marking both faces on the board but only where i was cutting. In other words only one angle per tail on either face. Ive been working on a comfortable stance but have yet to find one that i like. Id agree that if youre gang cutting there is a likelyhood that youd screw things up during the board spin.


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## Mosquito

Tony, use a workmate, then you don't have to loosen the vise to cut the other face when gang-sawing 

(I'm kidding, don't do it, it's stupidly frustrating)


----------



## thedude50

hang in there Chris you improving very steady I recommend you shrink the pins to be more slender like rob shows in his videos this makes them look hand cut


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## chrisstef

When i get into hardwoods ill probably slim them down a bit but i purposely left these chunky. The pine likes to dent and squish when i run the bevel of the chisel against the sides. Its all a learning process for me right now. So far ive accomplished layout. Technique needs work but my tools are sharp and work well. My first set in hardwood will be a nice tight set of pins for ya duderino.


----------



## Mosquito

it doesn't much matter, really. I've found that the only real difference for me between wide and narrow pins, is the size chisel I use to clean them up.

Have you tried the shallow rabbet for transferring the tails to the pin board? I've found it helps to line it up


----------



## thedude50

did you get to watch robs videos yet


----------



## chrisstef

No but i think im gettin what ur sayin Mos. A real shallow rabbet on the tail board will create a lip to register against the pin board kewpin it from wiggling around on ya during layout.

Havent yet dude but im gonna try to tonight after the midget hits the sack.


----------



## Brit

+1 on the rebate trick for DTs and +1 on following Rob Cosman's 5 p's when using a backsaw. I learned to saw from watching RC's DVDs. Great advice Mos and Lance.


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## terryR

Ah, Andy, you know I love your blogs! Definately some of the best on LJ's!

Should I have capitilized SawTalk in my reference? 

OK, my £10 worth…


----------



## dbray45

I have found that there are three things you really need to make dovetails:
1.) A sharp marking knife
2.) A sharp saw
3.) and practice

There are a few more things to make dovetails but they come quickly after #3 - if you are paying attention.










Good Luck


----------



## need2boat

I don't know I might say "understanding of proportions" is important. I've cut more then a few that afterwards the distance between, angle, amount, or even size seemed funky.

Joe


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## dbray45

I agree but everybody starts someplace


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

^ I knew as soon as reading 'three things' that there would be debate / dissention. But then I kept reading the last thing, practice, and knew that covered it all. You can practice with a hacksaw and get dovetails, or mark pins with a pencil and get dovetails. Either way, though, it requires practice.

The '30 dovetails in 30 days' trick really works, because it trains muscle memory and forces the development of a process. I did 25 or so in 40 days, around two years ago, and quickly figured what I needed on the benchtop to get busy, and where to have the tools placed to work with some degree of rythm. With those things constant, practice could center on technique for better quality and consistency.

Good post, David.


----------



## starringemma

My gal pal Becca and I went to a Salvation Army today, looking to make our new home feel more home like with other peoples unwanted stuff until we're able to accumulate our own crap. I found this hand saw for $5.00, it's missing one of the Chicago screws but the handle only has surface wear with no dents or chips. The blade has the usual dark aged color but no rust or pitting.










Becca bought a bacon press for $2.50


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## donwilwol

Start reading Emma


----------



## starringemma

Thanks Don,

The nice thing about Salvation Army's and Goodwill stores is that the people donating stuff and the people selling it usually don't know what it's worth… The bad part is that neither do I. But I did know enough that a an old hand saw with a solid handle and a cleanable blade was worth more than $5.00

Not to mention Becca's bacon press for $2.50 BLT's here we come!

EDIT:
Maybe I'll find some good handsaw cheap fixer uppers when We go to stuart's hollywood collectibles on saturday


----------



## OnlyJustME

you can slice through the bacon with that hand saw.  mmmmmmmmmmm BLT


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## dbray45

Thanks Smitty

There is also the paying attention part


----------



## need2boat

Not to get off topic if that's possible on a thread like this but I've never really agreed with the do something over and over and over and you'll get good, but I'm wired a little different then some in that I've never done well with traditional teaching styles.

Practicing and using good techniques for sure improves things but for me when I cut a set of dovetails every night for a week the set I cut on Monday was better then the ones I cut on Friday and it was mostly because I was loosing focus.

For me taking a class made a word of difference. Seeing and watching someone and all the small tips about hollowing out or under cutting the inside on larger pins really made a different. Also for me reading information on a blog post or book is good but seeing and having someone point it out in my work really made the biggest difference.

I could have cut DT from now until next year and most likely not gotten to the point I did with a weekend class. So for those who struggle with learning from a book or the web I'd seek out a good instructor.

Joe


----------



## Mosquito

I'm with you there Joe (I don't think it's really OT either, I meant… it's related to using a saw). I'm a "hands on learning" type person as well. I can read about it all day long for weeks and not get as far as I would in an hour of actually doing it. I've always been that way in all subjects, though.


----------



## CL810

Joe makes a good point: we all learn a little differently. My turning point was when I cut pins first. Can't explain it, but everything just started falling into place. Now I still cut tails first, but for some reason, mixing it up opened the skies for me.

Specific to DTs though, I do believe cuting DTs is an exercise in sawing. So practicing cutting straight lines to a mark, whether it be a pencil line or knife cut, definitely helps.


----------



## donwilwol

What works for me Joe, is grab an expensive piece of wood and start a project. Most of my practice is in the real thing. As long as I remind myself to go slow and pay attention I'm usually ok.

I'm sure my first dovetails were not rosewood, but I'll bet they are on the back side of a box somewhere. I'm also sure they have some filler in there to, but at arms length, you'll need to look close.

like the sneaker, just do it.


----------



## dbray45

I learned by looking at it and doing it. Every time I do them, they are a little different and I try to learn something new and better.

Does this work - not always but that why they make lots of wood. I have never made them day after day. When I started to make them, I made 15 drawers worth (my new kitchen). I started by making them on the larger drawers so if I made mistake, I could use that piece on a smaller drawer.

There are lots of ways to make them, figure out what is best for you and run with it.


----------



## OnlyJustME

I'm a hands on show me learner myself. I can usually watch some one and imitate easily but i think the biggest part is what CL810 said about being able to cut straight on your mark. After you have that down the rest is just process.


----------



## thedude50

I have been cutting dovetails a long time but I really got good when i spent the day with Rob Cosman. He showed me a better way to do it. My proportions are better and my work is better. I am torn between the saw I love to use and the saw that gives me the better results. Ahh but then there are those pesky half blind dovetails and what seems to mater most with them is knowing how to use a chisel. and having that chisel as sharp as can be. because if you force the chisel and its dull you will ruin all your good saw work. So for fun I will make hand cut dovetails but when I sell projects it is the keller or the WoodRat both are way faster and they always turn out. No spaces no gaps no problems. That said I like cutting them by hand but It takes so much longer that I cant make money doing them by hand.


----------



## StumpyNubs

Picked up a very early Spear dovetail saw for $6. It seems to be pre-1820 to me, definitely before they became Spear & Jackson in the 1830's. The only time I've ever seen nuts like this one has (with the little stud in the center of the slot) was on a pre-1815 Spear tenon saw. But I'm not very knowledgeable about these saws, so who knows…

The blade is really bad, unusable. (Yes, the blade is brown. I think someone may have varnished the entire saw heavily a very long time ago) But any help dating would be appreciated.


----------



## OnlyJustME

Totally worth the $6. It can be replated and would still be worth it. In my opinion any way.
I have a Wheeler Madden & Clemson saw that if i dated it right was from around the 1890's which has those split nuts on it. So don't know if you'll be able to get anything more accurate than before 1830 when they became Spear and Jackson.


----------



## thedude50

Ill buy it for 20 bucks stumpy


----------



## donwilwol

Nice find Stumpy. Well worth $6.


----------



## Brit

*Stumpy* - There is nothing I like better on a Sunday morning than a bit of historical research into an old saw. What a little treasure you have found my friend. Now the game is afoot and we must dig deep into the annuls of the interwebs in an effort to satisfy our curiosity.

According to Neill Tools (who bought Spear & Jackson in 1985), S&J can trace their roots back to 1760 when a draper named John Love and a merchant called Alexander Spear went into partnership together trading as *Spear & Love*. The focus of the company was steel refinery and the manufacture of steel goods, including saws. I can find no evidence of either of these men making saws prior to 1760. However, they had been working together for some time previous as this excerpt from the archives of the London Gazette (1775) reveals. It also informs us that their venture into steel was not a career change as such, but rather a diversification of their business interests as they continued their drapery business long after starting their steel partnership.










By 1814, the business had passed to Alexander's nephew (John Spear) who took on Sam Jackson as his apprentice. According to Neill Tools, Sam proved himself and became a partner in the firm in 1830. They then traded as Spear & Jackson Limited.

Now forget about the information presented in the previous paragraphs for a moment and let's consult a couple of early 19th century Sheffield trade catalogues.










As you can see in 1811, the Holdens catalogue has a J. Spear listed as a steel refiner and saw manufacturer working out of Gibraltar street in Sheffield. In 1822, the Baines catalogue has a John Spear listed as a manufacturer of files, saw &c. & steel refiner, still working out of Gibraltar Street, Sheffield.

Armed with these snippets of information, we must embark on a search for the answers to the following two questions:

1) Is the John Spear listed as working out of Gibraltar street, the same John Spear who took over Spear & Love in 1814?

2) When John Spear (Alexander's nephew) took over the business of Spear & Love, did he change the name to John Spear? Did he trade as John Spear from 1814 until 1830 when the firm became Spear and Jackson? If the answer is yes, then it is likely that your saw hails from this time period.

From the trade catalogues, we know that there was a John Spear making saws between 1811 and 1822. I also found a John Spear listed as a file manufacturer in 1829.










However, this does not provide proof that the John Spear listed in the trade catalogues as a saw maker was the same John Spear who took over Spear & Love. So off I went to the Transcript of professions and trades for SHEFFIELD in Pigot's Directory of 1829 which lists Spear & Co. under the heading of File Maufacturers, but also shows and entry of Spear, Jackson & Co. under the heading of Saw Makers and has them working out of Gibraltar street. Here was the evidence that showed that the John Spear listed in the trade catalogues was indeed Alexander Spear's nephew and the same John Spear who took over Spear & Love in 1814.

I was surprised to see that the entry read Spear, JACKSON & Co. though, as Neill tools would have us believe that Jackson did not become a partner until 1830. I then came across another listing in the London Gazette dated July 1829.










Now this gives us documentary evidence that Alexander's nephew John Spear & Samuel Jackson were in partnership with another fellow called George Cawthron prior to 1929. Maybe they weren't trading as Spear & Jackson before 1830, but Samuel Jackson was definitely a partner in the firm before 1830.

So where does this leave us in trying to date your saw? Well exactly where we started really. All we can say is that the earliest record of John Spear making saws is 1811. He took over Spear & Love in 1814 and was trading out of Gibraltar Street as Spear, Jackson & Co. in 1829. In 1830, they were known as Spear & Jackson. If I had to put money on it, I would say that your saw dates from 1811-1814 as I think it unlikely that John Spear continued making saws with Spear on them after he took over Spear & Love, even though he continued to work out of Gibraltar Street. Of course, I could be entirely wrong.

In my opinion, you should put that saw in a glass case and mount it on the wall near your workbench. Whenever you glance at it, let it trasport you to a little industial town called Sheffield in the county of York. Take an imaginery walk through it's cobbled streets, blackened by the smoke emitting furnaces. Listen to the tilt hammers relentlessly beating the steel and stop by the Saw Maker's Arms for a beer. Respect it for what it is; a wonderful piece of history.

Now I really must get on. LOL.


----------



## OnlyJustME

wow. Thanks for all the history Andy.


----------



## AnthonyReed

Andy you are all kinds of cool. That read is perfect for Sunday morning and coffee. Thank ya sir!


----------



## donwilwol

Nice detective work Andy.


----------



## StumpyNubs

*Brit*- Great info! I agree with you assessment that this has to be a pre-Spear & Jackson, perhaps even a pre-Spear & Love saw. But I wonder what the pre-John Spear saws were marked with? Alexander Spear made saws as early as 1760. How do we know if this is a 1811 John Spear or a pre 1811 Alexander Spear?

As I am not a saw expert, I can say little about it. I do note, however, that everything appears hand made. The stamp is slightly crooked and the nuts appear hand done to me. I am a huge fan of history in any form, so this saw is a real find for me!


----------



## stonedlion

Stumpy - I would frame it and put it on display.


----------



## bandit571

Tried to work the rust off of two things today. My right arm, and this "Hybrid Saw"









Saw plate by Disston, handle by Steigo, two medallions. @20" long. Rust in both items ? Still there.


----------



## Brit

*Stumpy* - Split nuts didn't appear on saws until 1780, so it is post that date. Before that time the handles were riveted.

I can't find any evidence that Alexander Spear made saws with Spear on the spine, but that doesn't mean he didn't. Perhaps we'll never know.


----------



## StumpyNubs

I am thinking of rehabbing it instead of displaying it. I mean, it would feel great to use a 200 year old saw to cut some dovetails. And since it's otherwise destroyed, it won't really hurt it's value. Where do you think I could get a reasonable priced yet good quality plate for it?


----------



## Brit

*Stumpy* - More info on this thread on the Backsaw.net forum. One member suggests that S&J continued to make saws under the name of John Spear.


----------



## Brit

For a new plate, send Joe (Need2boat on LJs) a PM. He runs Second Chance Saw Works and will able to either restore the saw for you or sell you a plate with the teeth cut ready for you to fit. He does watch this thread, so include a link to your photos and I'm sure he'll be happy to help.


----------



## donwilwol

*Stumpy* contact Joe at http://www.secondchancesawworks.com/ or http://lumberjocks.com/need2boat for a new plate. He'll sell you the plate, and/or cut the teethe and sharpen it for you.

if he happens to not pop into the thread to see this.


----------



## donwilwol

great minds think alike!!!!


----------



## thedude50

Stumpy if you want it done right there are only 2 guys I would trust Matt Cianci And our own Joe Joe did my Marples saw and it is fantastic .









that's before

Ill go take an after as i cant seem to find it


----------



## Brit

Dude - Here is your after photo. It looked so nice I saved it in my saw reference folder.


----------



## donwilwol

now that's an advertisement!!!


----------



## thedude50

OK I found the after hope this shows joes work well enough


----------



## thedude50

well thanks Andy I love the saw it is my go to tool cuts about 90 % of my hand work except dovetails


----------



## thedude50

Ya Don I have no problem Advertising for Joe He is a stand up guy helped me through some slim times and I wont forget that .


----------



## StumpyNubs

Came across a c.1820 Spear back saw. This one has a "Spear" stamp, but both the stamp and the handle shape are much more developed.

Below is the 1820 model. Then mine to compare. Mine is much more primitive, which in my experience means significantly older. (Designs rarely devolve) Maybe I should get ahold of the company and tell them I paid $6 for what may be the first saw they ever made…


----------



## OnlyJustME

With saw totes it seems like they did devolve after the 1930's when machines started producing the totes. Lambs tongues disappeared, horns and nibs shrank.


----------



## StumpyNubs

Everything devolved after WWII. That doesn't count…


----------



## starringemma

I bought 7 hand saws yesterday for $45 at an antique store in Salem, OR. I went in there looking for hand planes and the little old lady that owns the place said they didn't have any but asked if there was anything else I was interested in and I said old wood handled hand saws. So she took me to the farthest corner of this jam packed, cobwebbed, creepy, cold building to a 1800's wooden screw carpenters work bench so well used that the corners and edges of the bench were rounded. On top of the bench were 6 wood handled hand saws and 1 cast irom handled hand saw. a few days ago I bought a wood handled hand saw at a Goodwill store for $5 so I offered her $5 a piece for all of them. She said that they had been there for many years and and she would be glad to get rid of them but she would need $15 for the metal handled one so I took them home all 7 saws for $45

This is the cast iron handle saw:









and these are the wood handle saws:


----------



## thedude50

Emma that was a good deal however if your going to take buying saws serious you should arm your self with the instructions for buying old saws found on my site here is the deep link read this if you want to be out looking for gems in the rust pile you need to know this basic information good luck with your search I used to live in Salem http://thisoldworkshop.com/menu-info/1-info-rustygold


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## stonedlion

A good deal at $5 a pop. They can't all be gems, but they can provide plenty of practice. I've got a stack of my own waiting for me to find time to tackle them.


----------



## starringemma

Thanks dude, I'll take a look.

The little old lady did have a wood handled hand saw in a glass case that was a Winchester brand with a price tag of $150. She asked me if I was interested and I said noooo… not today thank you!


----------



## starringemma

Richard,

The 1st 2 wood handled saws have cracked handles and I would like to someday make new ones. My big dilemma is is the saw cut that the blade slides into. Is it a straight cut or is there some funky curves that the blade has to butt up against?


----------



## Mosquito

Take the handle off the saw plate, and look at the plate. That will give you the answer.


----------



## starringemma

Shinning up a hand saw blade… I saw thinking with the saw that have the teeth that are flat I could just run a fine grit stone with some oil over them.

I'd rather ask stupid questions than make stupid mistakes… I think I'll make that my new signature.


----------



## starringemma

I found this informative website.

http://www.backsaw.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=58&Itemid=102


----------



## CL810

Thanks for the link Emma. Have you read Brit's blog on saw restoring?


----------



## starringemma

CL810,
No, I haven't.
Got a link?


----------



## starringemma

http://antiques.lovetoknow.com/Antique_Saws

http://www.vintagesaws.com/

http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/

http://www.amazon.com/The-Handsaw-Catalog-Collection-Manufacturers/dp/1879335441


----------



## need2boat

I was out of town this weekend and just catching up. Lance and others thanks for the support and kind words. If Anyone has questions about the services I offer feel free to email me or the the links below should take you to my site.

cheers

Joe


----------



## bandit571

I think I will just post one of mine, in action









I might get the hang of these things, yet









Not too shabby??


----------



## ksSlim

Not too shabby for a newby!
Keep using em and you can do it without a line.


----------



## CL810

Emma, check out Andy 's blogs here.


----------



## chrisstef

Squeezed in an hour in the shop to try another set of tails. 









Need to define my base line a bit better. Better chisel work is the answer. Dangerously close.


----------



## CL810

Stef you really tightened the DTs up! Anything specific that made the difference?


----------



## chrisstef

Cl810- i went out and bought a whole armful of dumb luck . Actually a bunch of articles sent to me from Mos, Andy, Jorge, a suggestion from Lance, and some tips from Bhog seemed to sink in a little bit. I undercut the inside of the tails a bit, tried to be neater with the chisel and the marking knife. When i was going to make my cut in the tail board i ran the teeth of the saw once across the end grain at 90* giving my saw a kerf to ride in. I then took a step back and lined up that beveled cut which might have been the most helpful thing of all.










This is where it got a little dicey. I think i took too big of a bite with the chisel and it squished some fibers


----------



## ShaneA

C'mon bro…it is the mallet! : )

Surprised that thing hasn't shattered yet, it has to be out of warranty by now.

Are you gluing these DTs up? A little glue and sawdust can do wonders. (Not that I would know)


----------



## chrisstef

Thats it Shane! The slimline zebra mallet brings the fortunes of the gods.

No glue in em just "hitting the range" if ya will. Yet to try a hardwood but i might just dive right into a project and screw somethin nice up.


----------



## OnlyJustME

Jolly good show Chrisstef.


----------



## bandit571

chrisstef: I think I had a little Red cedar box somewhere in my Projects Page. One of the very few times I have done dovetails.

As for LARGE Dovetails, I do have a few on the end of the bench I built. Had to use a 26" long handsaw to cut them with….









Easier to see the cut lines.


----------



## donwilwol

they look pretty good Stef. You're a fast study. And pine isn't the easiest to cut them in.


----------



## Brit

Stef - Looking good baby! What you'll find is that some woods like pine give more than others. You can cut them quite tight in pine and the fibers will compress when you assemble the joint giving you anice tight joint. It is a different story however when you cut them in hard maple, so you have to allow for that.


----------



## terryR

Excellent chris…dumb luck, my a$$! That's the tried and true method of just plain doing it! Asking questions from your buds, and PRACTICE. Congrats, and I'm very jealous!


----------



## chrisstef

OJM,Yoda - much thanks fellas.

Bandito - Im not sure im up to cutting with that kinda saw just yet but well done brother.
Andy - When i was about to assemble them i di notice that they were a bit fat but i said what the hell and gave it a mallet whack. They slid together well but like you said im sure that some wood was compressed. Im going to move on to poplar tonight. Then to maple for a real project. I need to up my quarter box for Friday poker at the office, that tupperware is givin me bad juju.

Terry - I claim no mastery of this joint but i do claim to be in the land of many masters and all you guys have helped me in one way or another. Im just the dummy runnin the saw.

I gotta say lookin at these again in the morning makes me happy even after i just had to shovel ice off the driveway for an hour.


----------



## dbray45

I have worked with Joe in the past and found that he is very knowledgeable and professional - a lot like most of the people that hang out here.


----------



## ksSlim

30 in 30 with different kinds of wood.
Softer woods can compress or dent when assembles.

Overall I give Stef 3.75 on a 4 scale.
28 more days


----------



## chrisstef

And thats certainly better than any GPA i carried Slim. Ill take it!! Thanks brother.


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## starringemma

Hand saw tills of your dreams:


----------



## bandit571

Used a couple of mine today









The big one to scribe a line, and the little one to cut a line









I had a few of these to do









With a little help from some chisels









Got all the tenons done today.


----------



## mochoa

You guys ever catch the Renaissance woodworker blog? 
He has the Roubo framesaw recreated by a blacksmith. The blacksmith also sells the kits for $107. Seems pretty reasonable given the quality of the hardware. 
Check out the video:
http://www.renaissancewoodworker.com/a-visit-to-the-blacksmith-for-frame-saw-parts/


----------



## AnthonyReed

Wow Stef! Damn near perfect. What did that take you, four days? You don't mess around.


----------



## chrisstef

Thanks ToneLoc! It was my 5th attempt at them over probably a 2 week period and im gettin darn close but the proof will be in hardwood, not pine. The jury is still out but ill take the kudos when i can.


----------



## mochoa

Hey if I get the LN progressive pitch dovetail saw will that be too hard to sharpen later on? Should I get the regular fine tooth saw?

Crap there are three different choices! Which one do I need for general DT work that is not to crazy to resharpen?

The Progressive Pitch Dovetail Saw has a 0.020" steel plate with rip profile teeth. The teeth at the tip of the saw are16ppi. Each tooth is approximately 0.001" larger than the previous tooth, reaching 9ppi at the handle. Like the standard dovetail saw, the kerf is less than 1/32" (0.026"). The progressive pitch dovetail is easy to start and cuts quickly and cleanly. The blade is 10" x 1-5/8" to the back; overall it's 15" x 2-3/8".

The Standard Dovetail Saw has a 0.020" steel plate with 15 ppi filed to a rip profile, set only 0.003" either way, taking a kerf less than 1/32" (0.026") and making an excellent balance between speed and cut quality. The blade is 9" x 1-5/8" to the back; overall it's 14" x 2-3/8".

The Thin Plate Dovetail Saw has a 0.015" steel plate with 15 ppi filed to a rip profile, set only 0.003" either way, taking a kerf less than 1/32" (0.021") and making a smooth, very fast cut. The blade is 9" x 1-5/8" to the back; overall it's 14" x 2-3/8".


----------



## need2boat

I've not had one in had but my understanding is their "progressive pitch" is the same as "progressive toothed" saws like many larger rip saws offered by Disston. In this case LN is spacing them 16 ppi - 9 ppi tip to handle.

Provided your sharping them by hand it won't make a difference. I hand filed a plate 18ppi at the tip and 14 at the tail. it's really just a mater printing out something to use as a guide. I personally think it's a little silly and don't find it really makes much of a difference.

Joe


----------



## thedude50

Chris nice job I will however ask you to go back to any rob videos you have seen and notice he teaches the match should come from the saw and not the chisel. Your goal should be to be a better sawyer and not a better chiseler. I now it wont be easy to be great but you do have the drive to do it I know you will get it but take Robs advise and master the saw.


----------



## chrisstef

Lance, a lot of what worked for me came from Rob including taking a step back to line up the bevel cut. My point about the chisel work was more from the angle of working with a soft wood (pine) that is prone to denting when i run the chisel against the wall of the socket. Pine being so squishy and soft i ended up paring away a lot of waste in lieu of chopping. My paring skills would let the chisel wander a bit and dent some areas. They dont call me steady hands Stef for nothin.


----------



## thedude50

I am really glad you picked some stuff up from rob his efforts to demystify the dovetail joint are admirable.


----------



## mochoa

Thanks Joe, I thought it was a little gimmicky too. Would you have any preference for the thin plate vs. the standard?


----------



## lysdexic

Mauricio, wont LN sharpen the saw for free or at a discount. You just have to pay shipping. I'll check.

Edit: From the LN website-- "We will resharpen our own saws for $15.00 including return shipping (within the U.S.)."


----------



## need2boat

I guess it depends a little on the wood and tails you cut. I have an early model 15ppi .018 LN that works well for finer DT's but the issue being I need a fret saw with fine blade to fit into the kerf. I think now they just offer the .015 and .020.

I'm getting to like the fret saw but over all I'd rather use a coping saw The .015 thin plate seems a little to thin to me but I've used a friends and it cuts nice. I also don't cut a ton of tight angle or tricky DT where the thin plate would help.

Joe


----------



## mochoa

Hmm, I've done both the coping saw and the chopping method for removing waste between DT's. I'm not particularly set on either yet. I guess if I was strictly into the chopping and splitting method I could use the thin plate.

Important considerations Joe, thanks for the tips!

Scott, thanks for checking. Thats a pretty reasonable deal I'd say? hmmm…..


----------



## need2boat

I think, again I'm not an expert but when dealing with though crazy tight, sexy tails, you know the ones teachers always show in class they are so tight that chopping is hard to do but with the right size fret it just slides into the kurf.

Joe


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## Brit

+1 to everything Joe said Mauricio. If I was going to buy a LN dovetail saw, I would go for the .020" plate. I think it is a much more versatile saw and will cut DTs in any wood. IMO all this business about the thin plate cutting faster is vastly over-rated. Same goes for the progressive pitch cutting faster. Cutting DTs should be more about sawing excellence and less about speed. In any case, a .020" 10" 15ppi plate with sharp teeth is no slouch.


----------



## lysdexic

Mauricio, I have the LN progressive pitch DT saw. Ive used it several times but only several times. I do notice that it is easier to start compared to my others but it is not a life changing experience. Not like the day Stef showed up at your front door with Broke Back on DVD and a six pack of Zima.


----------



## thedude50

TMI scottyb


----------



## mochoa

Thanks Joe, Andy, I think you guys are right, I'm going with the standard DT saw.

That was a special time Scotty, I googled a picture of Brokeback mountain and Zima (scared of what I might find on my work computer). I found a great pic I was going post but photobucket doesnt like bitmap files.


----------



## lysdexic




----------



## chrisstef

Thats it Mauricio, im never coming to your shop to help " countersink your dog holes" again. I cant believe you had to google a picture we had all ready taken. MINE is in the top drawer of my desk. (Stomps feet, slams laptop shut).

I really like the veritas carcass saws.


----------



## Deycart

Here is that C. E. Jennings all cleaned up and sharpened. The tote had some really bad cracks in it, but I managed to remedy that with some CA. It soaked it up and sealed the cracks. I finished with some generic minwax walnut stain, then I used some brown, red, and black artist oil paint to blend it better. It was really blotchy after the finish. Then I sealed with shellac and top coat of lacquer. I think I will skip the minwax next time. BTW the handle is Beech.

First the Before




























*Now the After!*




























I added a nib to make it a little sexier!


----------



## donwilwol

nice looking Jennings Deycart.


----------



## ksSlim

Not too shabby!


----------



## terryR

Great job on the restore!
Finish on the handle is sweet, Deycart!


----------



## CL810

*Stef *- a post by Derek Cohen over in the Marking and Measurement thread reminded me of a post he made somettime back regarding dovetails that is very good. Thought you might be interested.


----------



## chrisstef

CL810 - thanks for the heads up, i favorited the post and when i get time later tonight (if im not painting) ill peruse thruogh all the info. Love the knowledge building stuff. Smarter not harder.


----------



## planepassion

Found some nice items at an estate sale this morning. I'll post the saw here. A Disston D-8 20" panel saw, 12 tpi (11 ppi). It was all mine for a whopping $5.00.










And some detail shots.










The sawplate is in pretty good condition. I think that I'll only sharpen it. No sanding this time. The handle is in decent shape too. Thinking I'll just rub in some paste wax and call it good. As for the brass, I'll leave that alone too.

I love these old panel saws. Given my shorter height, I can use them with my saw bench and not worry about slamming the toe into the concrete the way I do with my 26" saws. Plus, I can easily use the panel saws on pieces secured in my vise.


----------



## Brit

Nice find Brad. You can't argue with $5.00 and I love the way you looked at each component and talked yourself out of doing any work. ) The number 12 on the plate looks huge, but maybe it isn't. I'm hoping to finish sanding the handle on my Disston panel saw tomorrow if the weather lets me.


----------



## planepassion

Andy…we had four inches of snow last Monday and temps were in the teens (farenheit) and I still got myself into my frozen shop to sharpen some saws.

A couple of halogen lamps to light my work took the chill off. If I can do that, surely you can fix yourself a spot of tea, put on a mechanic's jump suit turn on a space heater and push forward creating the content we LJs love to consume (hint, hint). It's been too long there buddy.

And yes, the 12 for tpi IS huge.


----------



## thedude50

So you guys know I posted a pdf of the Disston saw file and tool manual on the library page of my site you can download it for free but you do have to be a member of the site to do so. The book is about 50 pages and covers a lot of topics on saws that you all should be armed with. I know you will like it it is from the golden age of the saw nov 1939


----------



## Brit

"Andy…we had four inches of snow last Monday and temps were in the teens (farenheit) and I still got myself into my frozen shop to sharpen some saws.

You're my hero Brad, that's dedication right there. However, if you think I'm gonna stand outside freezing my nuts off with blue hands and a runny nose whilst filming the ultimate saw sharpening video that could be seen by millions of people around the globe (I wish), then I'm afraid you're mistaken. Good things come to those who wait my friend.

Apart from waiting for the weather to improve, I'm also still acquiring the saws that will star in the video. Their plates will then need to be cleaned/sanded before I can sharpen them. I'm going to take a scenario-based approach to saw sharpening with each scenario increasing in difficulty. At a high level, it will go something like this:


Cover the theory of saw sharpening and any pre-requisites.
Scenario 1 - You've bought a high-end saw like a Gramercy, Bad Axe, Adria, LN, etc. and you've been using it for a while and it is no longer as sharp as the day you bought it.
Scenario 2 - You've bought a secondhand saw and the teeth are basically in good shape, but would benefit from a light jointing, shaping, setting and sharpening.
Scenario 3 - You've bought a secondhand saw and the teeth look like they were sharpened by a blind man who was jumping up and down on a bouncy castle at the time.
Scenario 4 - You've bought a secondhand saw and you want to re-tooth it to a different number of teeth per inch.

Somewhere along the way, I've also got to incorporate how to deal with cows and calves because some bloke PM'd me requesting that I cover that also. That means that I've got to purposely file a saw incorrectly so I can then show how to correct it.

I'm acutely aware that it is taking a long time for me to produce the video, but I've decided that I'm not going to rush it or cut any corners. No apologies. I want it to be a video that any woodworker can understand and after watching it think, "*I can do that*."


----------



## donwilwol

I'm with you Brad. I finally got to the shop yesterday for a few minutes. Even my evapo rust was f
partially froze.

I ordered new files but they're not here yet.


----------



## chrisstef

Id gladly stand outside and freeze my nuts off and wipe half frozen snot from my stasche to get my mitts on the upcoming Andy series of saw rehab. Ill also be able to say "i know that guy" when u get all Ricky Gervais on us. Needless to say ill be waiting with anticipation Andy.


----------



## DanKrager

Me too, Brit. I almost hate to waste that much good knowledge on the saws I'm (sorta) working on. I think the plates are good steel, so that's what counts to start with.
DanK


----------



## planepassion

I hear you Andy. My buddy who moved to Florida a few years ago became an official Floridian last year when he said to me, "Brad, it's cold here tonight." And it was 64 F out…So cold is all relative. But wouldn't the tea help?

May I suggest an alternative to "That means that I've got to purposely file a saw incorrectly so I can then show how to correct it."?

Rather than taking the time to improperly file it, perhaps a fellow LJ (not me, I need the experience correcting my own saw) could ship you one that needs correcting (win-win?). Or failing that, you might consider acquiring a calf/cow saw at a boot sale. If vintage English saw sharpening was anything like I've found here in Denver, it's fairly common to find saws in that condition.

I echo chrisstef's sentiment.

Hmmm. I wish I lived in your neck of the woods. I could help with the video production side (assuming you wanted the help). That's one of the things I do for high-tech clients who want to capture video interviews with satisfied clients.

Don, I also ordered some new files. You all have inspired me to take my sharpening game to the next level.


----------



## OnlyJustME

Can't wait for the video's Andy. Shame you're on the other side of the pond. I too would help with the camera work if you were in driving distance. 
What's this calf/cow terminology? I'm guessing that the teeth are filed with one bigger tooth next to a slightly smaller tooth making it look like one big tooth with a double point?

What kind of files did y'all order and where from?


----------



## donwilwol

Saw files from Tools for Woodworking.

Was hoping to recut some teeth this week end.


----------



## Brit

In the US the best files being sold today are made by Grobet. Tools for Working Wood, LN and Lee Valley all sell these files.


----------



## thedude50

They are okay but i prefer to get nos Nichols files they are often found on the bay but they do go for a premium. I have several boxes of the sizes for most of my saws. I will continue to try to master the craft of sharpening the saw. but if I screw it up and need it I can always send it to Matt or Joe for a repair it is good to know the right guys to fix the stuff you do wrong. I have successfully sharpened three rip saws so it is time to move on to a more difficult saw in the near future. My uncle has proven to be a wealth of knowledge as grandpa taught him to sharpen saws and he did a couple of my saws they work great but he balked on my miter saw and said it was a good saw to send out.

did you guys like the manual?


----------



## CL810

Picked up this Disston backsaw today and I'm just too fired up about it to wait till I restore it to post some pics. Actually got 3 saws for $22.50!










The top saw is a Bishop two edged sword. Somebody has posted about these and I'm interested in playing with it. The midlle saw is a rusty Superior Warranted. We'll see how it cleans up.

The bottom saw is a Disston dovetail saw. 12 PPI, 14" long, 3" below the back in the front and 3 3/8" at the handle. The rust on the entire saw wouldn't cover a dime. The medallion is in excellent condition and the handle has never heard the word loose. It is however, in serious need of sharpening. Visiting the Disstonian Institute for dating puts it at the early 1860's.


----------



## thedude50

the bottom one looks like a keeper


----------



## Brit

I've got that booklet in PDF format Lance and it is interesting to read what Disston recommended at that point in time.

CL810 - You got a real bargain there my friend. I'd restore and keep all of the them personally. The Disston and the Bishop are gorgeous. The middle one not so much, but it will still cut wood after you show it a bit of love. The Disston looks like it will need a bit of jointing to take some of the cant out of it, but that's easy enough. Congrats on a great buy.


----------



## thedude50

I am about to scan my mint condition Disston Handbook on saws. I think it is the most complete book of its kind. I am sure everyone will enjoy looking at it as much as I have. It will take a few hours to scan and orientate all the pages in the right direction one of the pearls of scanning books. I will be working on this in the next few days so stay tuned.


----------



## chrisstef

Cl810 - are you friggin kiddin me with that haul. Id had movement.


----------



## donwilwol

Nice haul CL. I like the Disston dovetail saw. 12 PPI


----------



## Brit

*Brad* - The only place I can get the kind of saws I would consider buying is ebay and a couple of other online dealers. It really isn't a problem for me to file a saw incorrectly in order to get cows and calves and then show how to fix it. If one of the saws I buy for the video has that problem already then that's a bonus. I would consider sharpening other people's saws that have issues, but recently Smitty and I looked into shipping one of his Disston D8s to me to restore, sharpen and return. Even though I offered to do the work for free, the shipping both ways was still too prohibitive.

Can I just check that what you mean by cows and calves is what is shown in the following photo where the teeth alternate between a thin tooth and a wide tooth?


----------



## RGtools

I am 222 posts behind…so rather than post so I can get to the bottom, I will just dive in head first with a "using" shot.










I wanted to know if anyone else did this. At the end of the cut, while ripping at the bench, do you lean on your work to help finish the cut without breakout at the end? I do this a lot and find it works quite well.


----------



## Brit

Hi Ryan, long time no talk. Great photos! I've never tried that, but then I don't have a bench to saw at (sob sob). I'm aiming to put that right in the Spring. I can see how leaning on the waste would help and I can't wait to try it. Thanks for the tip.


----------



## Brit

... and by the way, I'm 585 posts behind. It think I'm going to have to bin them and hope that nobody asked me a question. )


----------



## donwilwol

Ryan, If its a short enough piece, I usually grab the end over the cut so I'm holding both pieces together. I usually cut opposite the way you are, so your way wouldn't work for me, But I'm going to try it anyway.


----------



## thedude50

That's odd Andy I buy lots of tools from England and the freight hasn't been too bad. I will bet it is because the saw is so long.


----------



## Brit

No Lance, it was the weight. It is cheaper if the weight is under 1 Kg. I wrapped up on of my 26" D8s and took it to the Post Office to get it priced up. The weight was 1.218 Kg. The size could have been up to 1.5 m before it would have cost me more, so 26" is well within limits.

I got two options for Smitty as follows: The first service called Global Value takes a minimum of 5 days and is NOT trackable. It costs £31.60 (approx $51). The second service called Global Priority IS trackable and costs £53.90 (approx $87). Once you add the cost of Smitty sending the saw to me in the first place, it isn't feasible when he can send it to Joe or Matt.


----------



## RGtools

*Don*. Give it a whirl. It's pretty fun this way. I like this configuration for working at the bench or on really long pieces I sit on the work on two saw benches (teeth away from me for good reason). When I just kneel on work I am of course in the traditional "teeth toward me" mode, but I find switching back and forth between different styles helps me get more sawing done without petering out too fast (since the two methods use different muscles).

I still have not mastered at bench work with a bow saw though…too many things have to be in alignment…must require ninja skills. 
*
Andy.* I really look forward to seeing what kind of bench you build. Any style you are leaning toward? I envision you going all the way and having full on Scandinavian style bench like Frank Klaus.


----------



## mochoa

Great pics Ryan! Nice to see you around again.

I bought the LN Standard DT saw. I got to try all 3 out at the LN Event.

I thought the Standard was a good all-around saw, cuts nice and the saw is beautiful. Can't wait to get it. They had to ship it to be because it was out of stock.

Thanks for all the advice on the saw guys!


----------



## Brit

Anybody recognise these medallions? They are from a seller's photo and are a bit blured. The top one is upside down. The word at the top of the first one and the bottom of the second one is SHEFFIELD, but I can't make out the rest. Just wondered if anyone knew what they were from the wreath design.


----------



## thedude50

I will go check my English saws for a match the top one looks familiar but I cant say for sure whose it is with out checking all my saws.


----------



## donwilwol

How helpful do you think this would be?


----------



## DanKrager

It's a LOT more expensive than some pencil marks, even tape…
DanK


----------



## ksSlim

Don,
I've a couple of "sharpening guides" pat. date late 1800s.
They work for 2 ft. or longer saws.
I find them somewhat helpful on saws less that 12 TPI.

I've used some home made "aids" that resemble the one in your link.

As many "aids" that I've made, if this was avalible 20 years ago, I would have popped for one.

I'd bet most any one could do that tool. But time spent, cost of materials, is it worth it to make one?


----------



## Brit

I know nobody will believe me, but about 18 months ago when the closest I got to saw sharpening was reading about it, I drew a design for something similar in my sketchbook. When I started sharpening saws I just ended up using a a block of wood on the end of my file, where the file was inserted into a hole on the side of the block at the desired rake angle.

Now thanks to Lee Valley, I don't have to worry about making one out of pipe fittings. LOL. I just ordered mine, together with a set of Grobet files. To hell with the expense!


----------



## Brit

KsSlim - No it isn't - at least not to me.


----------



## donwilwol

Well, I guess my question is answered. Thanks guys…


----------



## ksSlim

Wasn't aware that anything like this was available.
Think I'll clean some clutter and order one.

I think we agree Andy.


----------



## Brit

I wonder if this guy sold the design to Veritas. If he didn't, he is not gonna be very happy.

http://blackburntools.com/new-tools/new-saws-and-related/rakemaker-ii/index.html


----------



## ksSlim

Whoa! another option?

I been going old school too long.


----------



## Brit

Yeah but his isn't available yet. It says "Coming soon." Like I said, he ain't gonna be happy. Mind you I think the spirit level on the top is a bit overkill.


----------



## CL810

_I know nobody will believe me, but about 18 months ago_

Why wouldn't we? We believed you when you said you wore red dresses on Thursdays.


----------



## planepassion

Andy
"Can I just check that what you mean by cows and calves is what is shown in the following photo where the teeth alternate between a thin tooth and a wide tooth?"

Indeed it is! That looks exactly like what I end up with sometimes.


----------



## planepassion

Andy, you're right about the Blackburn sawfiling aid. Lee Valley is pretty good about patenting their designs. I'd be surprised if they haven't already filed a patent application for this item. Which means that unless Blackburn has one on file before the date that appears on Lee Valley's application, he's out of luck.

I'm with you on the spirit level. Though, from a learning perspective, it might be good to associate what level "feels like" while verifying it with the level. However, craftsmen have been sharpening saws well for a really long time without one…so it's probably redundant.


----------



## bandit571

Someone a while back, asked about those Sycamore saw handles I made. Something about not sturdy enough?









No issues so far….


----------



## DanKrager

I know I can get sycamore, so I may have to check into that if I can't come up with affordable apple within a couple weeks.
DanK


----------



## Brit

CL810 - Jennifer is flattered that your remember her.


----------



## CL810

^ LOL


----------



## Brit

What's up with the surface mail and air mail in Canada.

Up to 12 weeks to send something to UK via surface mail. That's outrageous! It only took 10 weeks for the Pilgrim Fathers to sail to the New World.

Up to 4 weeks for air mail! It only takes about 8 hours by plane.

What's up with that? And there was I thinking the world was shrinking. Looks like I'll have to wait patiently and watch Don using his saw file holder in the meantime. I went for the air mail as I don't trust UPS. To hell with the expense, you've got to suffer for your art haven't you?

Surface Mail 8 - 12 Weeks $15.85
Air Mail 2 - 4 Weeks $34.82
Xpresspost 6 - 10 Business Days $70.08
UPS Express 5 - 7 Business Days to Major Centers $37.20


----------



## ksSlim

WTH over, no service to the UK?
China to the world in 3 weeks.

Who is behind the curve?


----------



## RGtools

My saw is magic. It's so sharp the off-cut forgot to fall off.


----------



## terryR

RG, that's a cool shot…so WHO sharpens your saws? I've got a few…

I noticed that Veritas saw file holder yesterday morning while browsing…thought it might be too gimicky to jump on at first sight. But, after approval of Andy, I bought one last night! 

Too bad they are low on saw files, though…I think *Joe* has been hoarding all the US supply of files for the past year!


----------



## terryR

Andy, want me to ship you mine when it arrives here? Probably faster!

I have no saw files, so can wait…


----------



## Brit

Don't worry Terry, I guess I can carry on using my block of wood for a bit longer. Anyhow, it gives me an excuse to delay the impending video for a bit longer. )


----------



## terryR

...Yeah, that's why I offered…for the video.

We all wanna see it asap!


----------



## donwilwol

Mine's ordered. It said out of stock until Feb 8th, so not to bad. You guys must have ordered them all up on me.


----------



## Brit

It said the same for me Don.


----------



## terryR

Yeah, when I first saw that tool my gut said, "That's a sweet idea…gonna be on backorder as soon as the group sees it!" Looks like I was right about that one…

Now…if I could just troubleshoot the diesel fuel system in me truck…Hey Andy…


----------



## ksSlim

Just got my conformation, in stock.
$8.95 US shipping.

Now we wait for delivery.
Within 2 weeks.


----------



## donwilwol

same here, but my shipping is $9.95.

Edit: I ordered the files to.


----------



## ksSlim

Santa Claus already brought the files to my house plus a pair of needle files.


----------



## AnthonyReed

You had been dodging this place for so long i had forgotten what an accomplished sawyer you are Ryan; with a Sears special none the less. Nice picture.


----------



## thedude50

I am in I think the guide will insure accurate fleem and rake angles much better than guessing imho


----------



## 9FINGERTIM

ALL THE OLD SAWS I FND AROUND FLORIDA ARE SOLD BY OLD LADIES AT FLEA MARKETS AND HAVE OIL PAINTINGS ON THEM,HAVE FOUND THAT WHEN YOU TRY TO USE EM THEY MARK UP YOUR WOOD SOMEWHAT TERRIBLE


----------



## Brit

LOL. I'd love to see a decent saw at a flea market with an oil painting on it. I'd hand over the money and before walking away, take a sheet of P180 to it. FREE THE SAWS BROTHERS. MAKE IT YOUR MISSION.


----------



## Brit

I bought this little beauty at the weekend. 10" dovetail saw, 17 TPI, made by C. Garlic & Sons. I bought it because I like the shape of the handle and it has an interesting hang angle. Seller's pics. Not sure whether the decal should stay or not. What say you? Vote now although I already know what Smitty and Lukie will say.


----------



## chrisstef

My vote is that its gotta go Andy. It looks like a blemish IMO. Smitty would probably paint it


----------



## donwilwol

I hate to, but I agree with Stef.


----------



## WhoMe

I say the decal goes also. There is too much of it gone to make it of any value. 
So, I was given this saw set recently. From looking on ebay, it looks like a Stanley handyman one. At least that is what I could find in pictures. Yea, I know, not the best picture on the second one. Focus point too far back.

















So, anyone know how this works and who made it? Once I know that, maybe I can find a old set of instructions on the web somewhere. Or is this set not worth it and I should get a different one if I find one?
Thanks


----------



## bandit571

Ones like this are easier to use









There is a black "wheel" with a set of numbers on it. It sets the amount of set a tooth gets when you squeeze the trigger.

Others will be along to explain further. I had two of these last year, found out I didn't need them for my saws, and sold them. This one was a Disston, I think….


----------



## thedude50

according to Matt the set to own is the stanley 42x i believe using them is covered in the saw manual i posted on my website


----------



## thedude50

who me that set will work just fine but you simply look at the anvil it has lines on it the further the anvil is down the larger the set this is as good as most sets the 42x is just more accurate


----------



## Brit

WhoMe - That is a Stanley Handyman saw set. Take a look at this one.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-STANLEY-SAW-SET-TOOL-/321060764303?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ac0b67a8f


----------



## planepassion

Andy, I would keep the decal because, even in its present state, it's part of the history of the tool. The handle looks to be in excellent condition and not in need of anything but cleaning and waxing. If the handle were in need of refinishing, I'd say nix the decal.

Of course, it's up to your taste. You already have a number of finely restored saws. Having one that is a bit different not only adds to the story you'll tell when fellow LJs visit you, but also makes it easier to ID and retrieve from your saw till to use.


----------



## WhoMe

Thanks all. I knew if I posted a pic with a question, I would get some direction from those smarter than me regardign saw sharpening.

Lance, since it was free, I figured I would take it and see what I could do with it. If I really get into the saw sharpening thing, which I probably need to considering I have about a dozen saws that could use tune ups, I probably will look for a 42x before I get to the good saws. In the mean time, I have 4-5 saws that are cheapies that I can practice on before getting to the ones that are good and have value. I will take a look on your website (bookmarked it a while ago) and look for the 42x manual for usability hints.

Andy, thanks for the confirmation. That is kind of what I thought it was based on some ebay photos too. At least now I can see if I can find a reprint of the instructions to better understand the setting vs tooth count.


----------



## thedude50

Who me the manual is the disston saw manual but the setting guidelines are in that book I don't think I have a manual for the 42x I hoard those sets and a couple like Andy uses i got from England a while back they are also nice but this shipping was less so.


----------



## thedude50

I too say keep the decal and preserver rather than restore the saw looks nice and should be maintained and not re worked .


----------



## RGtools

Terry. I sharpen my own saws. With how few people there are who can do it and the cost of getting it done, I decided it's a skill worth learning.

I love my sears special. I have a few other pics I need to post soon on taking really clean crosscuts with a rip saw.


----------



## dbray45

Andy - if you are going to use the saw, clean it up and enjoy. If you are cleaning it up to sell, clean it up, and keep the decal.

If bought the saw new - to be used, the decal would be gone in about 5 minutes, as an antique, the decal is worth far more where it is - but you know this.


----------



## need2boat

Andy the stamp looks a little off center. I see that from time to time but always check the leading edge to see if it's cut down 12".

Joe


----------



## terryR

Hey, RG, I agree with ya 100% on how important it is to know how to sharpen a hand saw! Sadly, I've put learning that skill off too long!

I've been hiring Joe at 2nd Chance Saw Works for my sharpening. His prices are very fair IMO, but just the cost of shipping to him and back doubles the cost. bummer..time to buy some files and practice!

Yesterday I crosscut a small piece of pine…and the cut off portion held on just like the photo you posted! pretty cool! Hey, it's the little things in life that make it worthwhile, ya know?


----------



## Brit

Joe - I know what you mean, but I think it is a genuine 10" saw. Don't forget you've got the Lynx logo to the right of the text which makes the whole stamp more or less centered.

I bought it because I like the hang angle of the handle which is very similar to the hang angle of the Gramercy dovetail saw which I love.


----------



## need2boat

Yes the double stamp does throw the eye off. Personally I rather like it off center. The aesthetically of these old saws are great.

Joe


----------



## Brit

By the way Joe, I'm enjoying your blog posts over on Positive rake. You really hit home with the last one entitled "When it's ok to play with your nuts"

I'm always really careful with old split nuts, but a few months ago I thought I'd start on a lovely old Sorby 26" 5TPI rip saw. I gingerly loosened the first split nut. SNAP! I even more gingerly loosened the second split nut. SNAP! Same with the third, so I swore a little and hung it back on the wall. LOL.

Guess I'll be doing a bit of silver soldering when the weather warms up a bit if I can remember where I put the bits that broke off.


----------



## OnlyJustME

You headed to the nations capitol Joe?


----------



## DanKrager

Made quite a bit of progress with saw restoration today. De-rusted three of four plates and am polishing on them. This plate cleaned up really well. I'll sharpen and maybe try to use this now and again. Pretty coarse.









Now I have a question. This old bow saw is really not much of a collectors item, and two of the frame parts are badly bowed as you can see in the picture. I think I can persuade them to be straight again (for awhile). But my question is: This thing seems to have been painted with a really cheap paint, sort of like barn paint with a bit of varnish in it. What little pieces there were came right off as powder. I think it was original paint. Should I paint it back to that color? 
DanK


----------



## RGtools

I would repaint it. Milk paint and years of sweat would make for a fine looking tool after a while.


----------



## starringemma

7 original hand saw medallions on ebay for restoration needs… just encase anyone's interested.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/7-Hand-Saw-Medallions-Screws-Craftsman-Warranted-Superior-Disston-/181060114589?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a2806189d


----------



## need2boat

Andy,

Thanks. Writing has never been my strength but I'm starting to enjoy it more.

My friend David who's shop I was in brazes a lot of his job but I was really impressed with the results. The only issue is if it breaks at the threads now your also looking at redoing them as well.

Only just me: I was in Richmond for a Tool show that's held by the Richmond tool club so I drove thru the DC area. I also went to drop off some Foley equipment I don't need to a few guys in that area. The show wasn't a big turnout but I picked up 2 D-8 that should help offset the gas. I was also happy to find homes for the foley stuff as it was getting closer to the scrap pile.

Joe


----------



## planepassion

I don't know if you guys have ever come across this article by Blackburn Tools, Saw Tooth Geometry, but it's amazing.

Information about what angles (rake, fleam, slope) to use are available with a few mouse clicks. But I've never found a source like the article above that details the effects of what more/less rake, more/less, fleam, more/less slope will have on the wood. Nor have I seen parameters described for fleam to different woods and classes of saws.

The article is filled with illustrations like this:









And this diagram cleared up confusion I've had. Taran's filing article angles the file toward the toe to apply fleam, but I've seen others angle the file toward the heel. Apparently you can angle it either way.









The above-referenced article, is *by far *the most useful I've come across to describe the effects of varying the filing parameters. I wish I had it a year ago when I first started sharpening my own saws.


----------



## need2boat

Yea Issac's understanding of saw filing is above and beyond. He's also been into sloped gullets for longer then most. I ran into him last weekend at the CRAFT meeting on Sunday and checked out a few of his latest saws. The detail is really over the top. They are as nice as anyone's on the market and because he's less known most are in stocked. 
He's a real inventor designer as well. In talking to him this weekend he's in the process of making carriers and bars for a foley retoother that will allow him to reproduce saw blades to use in a roubo saw. These are big ass frame saws with very long I think over 4' and 2ppi. used to rip stock down. Anyway in just talking to him my head was spinning. He mostly posts on Woodnet.

Joe


----------



## CL810

Awesome Brad - thanks!


----------



## AnthonyReed

Thank you Brad.


----------



## Brit

Brad - I've read Isaac's articles a few times now and find them very interesting. The thing I find most interesting is filing point slope on rip saws. I haven't tried that yet because whenever I've read the articles in the past I've come to the conclusion that point slope isn't a good idea on a rip saw because it would not leave a flat bottom to the kerf which you would want if you were sawing tenon cheeks for example.

However, recently I've been thinking about the best approach to cutting tenons by hand and I've come to the conclusion that after marking them out with a knife using a square on your reference face and edge, you should cut the tenon shoulders first. If you do this, then it doesn't matter if your rip saw has teeth with point slope as you will be ending all your rip cuts in the kerf of your shoulder cuts. I'll have to file a rip backsaw with point slope and see if I think it makes enough of a difference.

Incidentally, I emailed isaac to let him know that he got the ppi and tpi wrong on the rip saw in figure 6, just in case anyone has been looking at the diagram and wondering.


----------



## planepassion

Andy I had a feeling you were in the know on Isaac's material. That warms my heart, knowing that you'll have that base of knowledge along with everything else in your noggin to guide your saw sharpening videos.


----------



## Brit

No pressure then. )


----------



## donwilwol

there is no pressure. We just know it'll be perfect!


----------



## OnlyJustME

Joe, that's a long way to go for a tool show. You passed right by my house though if you drove I-95 down.

Brad, thanks for the link. I haven't seen that one yet.


----------



## Brit

For you guys, I'll certainly do my best.


----------



## planepassion

Andy, you're among friends here. No pressure buddy.


----------



## IsaacS

Brad - Thanks for the kind words and sharing my writing. It is always nice to know that what I wrote is helping someone.

Joe - I always enjoy talking to you. There aren't too many people who enjoy talking about sharpening saws, although the length of this thread does give one hope.

Andy - Thank you for bringing that error to my attention. I have fixed it, but let me know if you find any others. Concerning sloped gullets on rip saws - I'd like to see what you think of them after trying them out. Personally, I don't see much benefit from them on backsaws, as the teeth are usually fine enough that they don't have too much grabbiness. But certainly try them out and see how they work for you.


----------



## thedude50

Hey Joe do you have time to do my miter saws before spring ?


----------



## Brit

Thanks for stopping by Isaac. We don't take ourselves too seriously on this thread as you've probably gathered. Just a bunch of guys sharing their thoughts and experiences and asking lots of stupid questions. Thanks again for the thought-provoking articles.


----------



## Brit

Thanks for stopping by Isaac. We don't take ourselves too deriously on this thread as you've probably gathered. Just a bunch of guys thinking our loud, sharing their thoughts and experiences and asking lots of stupid questions. Thanks again for the thought-provoking articles.


----------



## chrisstef

Just wanna say that its pretty awesome when we're all talking about this great article we read and all of a sudden the guy who wrote it pops in to say hello. Love me some lumberjocks.


----------



## AnthonyReed

^Lumberjocks *is* awesome like that.


----------



## need2boat

Lance pmail me. I'm happy to help.

Joe


----------



## OnlyJustME

x4 what Tony said.


----------



## DanKrager

Today was summer here, with bright sun. Felt good to get outside, so I put on some dirty clothes and polished on my saw plates. They were in deplorable condition, rusty and pitted. The forestry saw with a Disston medallion was sold as a Disston but I had a real surprise when sanding on the plate after the second heavy acid treatment. This partial etching caught my eye, so I put on my magnifiers and took a Sharpie and drew over what I could see for certain. Does anyone recognize it?
















DanK


----------



## OnlyJustME

Well Disstons were made in philadelphia weren't they? Second word up was probably "warranted"


----------



## donwilwol

I think there were a few of manufactures in philly. Some well known, some not.

I stumbled on this to, Its kind of interesting. Look at the disston combination saw. I'd love to find one!!


----------



## Mosquito

a google search, Don?


----------



## donwilwol

I never said "google" I own the "other" stock and I want to retire someday.


----------



## Mosquito

I meant you said "I stumbled on this" and "this" was a link to a google search


----------



## donwilwol

Thanks Mos. For some reason the link didn't want to copy. It's friday, so its not to early to start drinking right?

Try it now.


----------



## ksSlim

Who was that guy tha said "Its five o'colck somewhere"?

I just got off the phone with a fellow in the UK. 
Darn I forgot, its already past 8PM there.

Cheers.


----------



## need2boat

In the word doc Don linked they have info on the D18 which is the D21 with a different handle and also the same as the infamous D23. Disson sold the D18 as a new space age plastic/composite trouble-free handle. I'd never seen one, then in the last Month I've seen 3. Mind you all 3 of the advertised, stronger then wood handles were broken. I ended up buying one as the plate looks brand new and the previous owner or sharpener fitted a nice D23 handle to it so I guess it's now a D21.

Gotta love Disston, reminds me of GM in the 60-70s

Joe


----------



## CL810

Here's the before and after of the 1860's Henry Disston (pre & Sons) back saw.

Befor:









After:


----------



## donwilwol

The disston came out great.


----------



## OnlyJustME

looks great CL810!!!


----------



## Brit

Sweet!


----------



## ksSlim

CL810 Looking good!


----------



## need2boat

Looks good. Is that 12" or 14"?

Did you bleach the handle or just clean it. looks almost new!

Joe


----------



## CL810

Joe - 14". For the handle I cleaned, sanded and then 2 coats BLO, 2 thin coats of wipe-on varnish and wax.

It's packed up and coming your way tomorrow. When you get it you'll see the the dark areas (spots, streaks) are what the handle looked like before. The dirt, oils, patina, whatever, were so deep I could not sand it all away without significantly changing the size of the handle. But, I thought it might look good so I didn't try anything else and I like how it turned out.


----------



## CL810

I purchased a can of Liburon's Wax and Polish Remover after Andy mentioned it. It's hard to find, not on Amazon, but Tools for Working Wood has it.

It came in a few days after I finished the handle in the saw posted earlier so I tried it on another handle. Below are before and after pics. This stuff works! It is, I suspect, around half mineral spirits or some other petroleum distillants. I applied it and rubbed it in per the instructions with a pad that is the equivalent of 0000 steel wool.

I did a small test area in the middle of the handle.

Before









After









Thanks for the tip Andy!


----------



## AnthonyReed

Wow. That came out beautiful. Nice work CL.


----------



## chrisstef

Stef's at it again. This time its QS cherry and a real project.


----------



## AnthonyReed

^ Right on!


----------



## bandit571

Hand chopped dovetails









All I had to saw them with was a









The first picture, these are setting there, with no glue added, just hanging in mid-air, with a "vise' holding one side.


----------



## chrisstef

By hook or by crook the bandit gets it done!


----------



## bandit571

Hey, it does work









Didn't even have to plane it smooth….


----------



## bandit571

Went out and bought a new T-8 shop lite today, and some new coping saw blades. I happen to have three that need new blades.


----------



## lysdexic

Bandit, As much as you mention your lighting in the "dungeon", I hope that you are happy with the t-8. I am happy with mine. They are a nice upgrade from the t-whatever that I had.


----------



## bandit571

Got it up, and lit up. Me likey! I can even see all the dust bunnies under the benches! As for them coping saws









I seem to have a few. That BIGGEM is a "The Parker line No.85 of Worcester , MASS. USA "

The one with the round frame is a Stanley, I think??

Brown handle is a Disston/ HK Porter No. 10

Just got brand new blades in them, by Kobalt, for about $5 or so. One last look?









Nice little set of saws??


----------



## racerglen

Nice saws yes Bandit and I'm with you on the T-8 lights, replaced two 4' old style fixtures with them..WHOLEY WHOO..LIGHT ! and no mo buzzzzzzzzzzzz from ballasts..
I'm using 4 "daylight" tubes and 4 whatever it was came with the fixtures and that daylight is even more impressive.


----------



## AnthonyReed

Not that you care but:

The letter 'T' in the lighting industry stands for "tubular." The number directly following the letter "T" indicates the thickness or diameter of that particular tube in eighths of an inch.

T12 = twelve eighths of an inch in diameter or one and one-half inches thick
T8 = eight eighths of an inch in diameter or one inch thick
T5 = five eighths of an inch in diameter or five eighths of an inch thick

The color temperature scale per Wikipedia:
The color temperature of the electromagnetic radiation emitted from an ideal black body is defined as its surface temperature in kelvins, or alternatively in mired (micro-reciprocal kelvins). This permits the definition of a standard by which light sources are compared.

1,700 K Match flame
1,850 K Candle flame, sunset/sunrise
2,700-3,300 K Incandescent lamps
3,000 K Soft White compact fluorescent lamps
3,200 K Studio lamps, photofloods, etc.
3,350 K Studio "CP" light
4,100-4,150 K Moonlight,[2] xenon arc lamp
5,000 K Horizon daylight
5,000 K tubular fluorescent lamps or Cool White/Daylight compact fluorescent lamps (CFL)
5,500-6,000 K Vertical daylight, electronic flash
6,500 K Daylight, overcast
5,500-10,500 K LCD or CRT screen
15,000-27,000 K Clear blue poleward sky

I don't have a crosscut panel saw so i am thinking about buying this saw filed Crosscut 8 ppi:


----------



## racerglen

Tony ! it's not T-M-I, but whooo, what a lot of info..
And that saw is gorgeous !


----------



## Mosquito

I'm replacing T12's in my apartment today, hopefully. They've gone from taking 10-15 seconds to turn on (and stop flickering) to never stopping the flicker. Just wish I could replace those with LEDs too… everything else I have, except the dining room hanging globe thing, has LED bulbs in it. Costly up front, but feels better, and is cheaper to run.
-

Tony, It's not a bad choice. As you probably remember, I've got one. I have been waffling as to whether or not I'm going to sell it. I've got a 24" Disston for crosscut, but haven't gotten around to sharpening it yet. I've been debating picking up a LN Rip to go with my cross cut, and just be done with it. Or, sell the crosscut and use the cash to send out my rip and crosscut Disstons to be sharpened? Bah…


----------



## AnthonyReed

Thank you Mos. Yes, i recall our discussion about your LN panel saw and how you are not entirely enthused about it. And that fact gives me pause.

What about a Wenzloff & Sons?:










Bad Axe does not make panel saws as far as i know, what are other options for new? Is a want for new soulless?


----------



## lysdexic

Tony, that chart is very interesting though I am not sure what a clear blue poleward sky looks like. I know for my taste I like the 2700K bulbs. I like warm incandescent light. The thing that gets me is constant hummmm of the old ballast. It contributes to your fatigue after several hours.

I changed out the ballast in the shop part of the garage but I still need to change the other 4.

Tony, why new? I know I am a guy who often opts for new tools over vintage but one of my favorite tools is a yard sale D-8. I cleaned it up and had it sharpened.


----------



## AnthonyReed

I will confess that i am tired of the smell of metal dust and at this point find it repugnant. I'd just like to spend some time laughing at my abilities to cut to a line rather than e'ff with another tool before i can put it to inept use. Changing out sandpaper, i am finding, is losing its charm.


----------



## lysdexic

I completely understand.


----------



## need2boat

Tony,

I think Mike offers a better all round product then LN when it comes to saws. But when you get off the phone with LN and the saw is in the mail the next day and with Mike it might take a little wrangling. That said if I was to buy a new panel saw it would be from Mike. I'm not sure who sharpens for LN but the examples I used at the two local shows around Philly sure looked to have been machine filed and set. Mike and his Sons do most of the work by hand using power tools or sure but the final sharpening is by hand.

One reason you don't see a lot of people offering new panel saws is it's hard to compete with the price of used ones. Also to date I think Mike is the only person who has come close to offering a tapered plate and even he's had limited success. Tapered plates just cut better and 8ppi is easy to come by. Depending on model and condition your looking at 100-150.00 for a reconditioned and sharpened saw and that's hard for those guys to compete with.

I would personally say look at a 10ppi, for 90% of my cutting its what I use. I find it take a smaller bits but allows for a higher cadence with less effort. I liken it to gear ratios on bike. The exception being if your just using the saw to cut to size the larger tooth is nice but the idea it uses less effort is not always true.

shot me a pmail if your interested in anything or more info.

Joe


----------



## mochoa

LN is not alwayst that fast. I bought one at Highalnd Woodworking that was out of stock, they were going to send it to me. That was about a week ago. Its now going to take about 3 more weeks before they get the saw.


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## need2boat

Good point. LN doesn't always have everything in stock so I guess check before you buy.

Joe


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## dbray45

I bought a couple of fish tail chisels from LN and they are out of stock - should have them shipping by the end of next week.


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## planepassion

The LN crosscut panel saw looks beautiful. It's hard to not be seduced by the maple handle, nib, excellent steel, fresh sharpening and LN quality. Yet the $225 (is that right?) price breaks the trance in my book. If I were a professional, or someone making some money from my woodworking, I would consider it.

Instead I went with a Disston D-8, 8ppi skewback handsaw. After sharpening and rehabbing it, she cuts like a dream. I use it primarily with my saw bench. If I need a finer cut, or to cut something in my bench face vise, I reach for one of the vintage Disston 20" or 22" panel saws with ppi ratings of 8 and 11. I probably paid $40 for all three, and it's not uncommon for me to find nice panel saws at estate sales for $5-$10.

However, to go the vintage route, you do need to be able to evaluate the serviceability of a saw so as not to buy something that can't be made a user. Moreover, you need to be able to rehab, repair and sharpen a saw. All skills that are easy to acquire but take time to master (particularly sharpening). But you can put a decent sharpening usually on the first attempt for a rip saw-it's that easy. A XC saw requires a bit more finesse, practice and experience. That said mine saw decently.

With the LN, you're good to go out of the box, would have a quality product, and could return to them to sharpen over the life of the tool.


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## ShaneA

Wow, Tony just put some serious hard core truths out there. Metal dust blows! Blackened fingers too, something to be said about not having to put hours into a tool before it can be used. I like the cool factor and the cost of the vintage tools, but they are taking away from woodworking time, which has become scarce for me recently. I am going to have to use some vacation days just so I can get an overdue project or two going/completed. This hour here, hour there evening and weekend is getting me nowhere fast, especailly with the tool rehabs thrown in.


----------



## lysdexic

What Shane said.


----------



## bandit571

I seem to like the "Old saws"









Although I do tend to "customize" the handles, a bit









Next Rust Hunt I might start looking for a decent rip saw…


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## AnthonyReed

Thank you very much for the input fellas.

Scott - Clear blue poleward sky = Similar to the color light produced from arc welding? Agreed the humm of the ballasts was a large agitation.

Joe - So 10ppi purely for less effort while sawing and, i am assuming, a smoother finish, do i have that right? Are there other factors?
I wonder what the difference between the Wenzloff saws offered though Lee Valley and the ones offered from their own site are. The Harvey Peace style cross cut Panel saws they produce are exquisite looking.

Brad - Thank you for the input. I do like the idea of putting some sweat equity into the tools i use. It makes them mine in a way, but i am full on that at this point. I am a vacant of any kind of skill in regards to woodworking and putting in the effort and time to tune a tool so that i can practice at is has lately become almost a chore in my mind. I have enough chores and have to's. I drive a sh!t car so i can afford tools …. so in this case i am not putting in the time to tune up a vintage.

If Shane gives his okay then i am guilt free. Thanks bud.


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## chrisstef

I say whatever blows your hair back Tony. Its your money and you can spend it any way your want. I struggled for a while with some Disston back saws that had small kinks in them and probably werent the sharpest. Then i bought the veritas carcass saws. Fresh outta da box they cut like butter, a total of 3 minutes spent waxing them and i was off and running on dovetails. I find that handsaw rehabs kinda suck, mostly because i dont know how to sharpen them yet but the rust removal in itself is kind of a chore. I say buy that LN or Wenzlhoofensteiner, cut some wood, and smile. Its about happiness my brother not whos got the biggest d0ng. I lost that fight the day i was born.


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## mochoa

This is going to be the next tool swap. Shop made DT saws. 








http://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/chris-schwarz-blog/first-look-andrew-lunns-new-saws


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## AnthonyReed

Thanks Stef, i did not mean to come off as wanting to be in a measuring contest. I was just looking for some guidance in where money would be best spent in my search for a crosscut saw. You all are the sharpest guys i know, particularly about things of this ilk. So what better place to ask for opinions?


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## CL810

+1 Stef. "whatever blows your hair back" Sig line worthy


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## Mosquito

how are your abilities at making a saw tote, Tony? I have thought about the Wenzloff and Sons kits before, but I'm not sure I could pull off making a decent tote…


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## waho6o9

My blade's on order from Wenzloff and I can't wait for it to arrive.

You can make a decent tote Mos. Yeah buddy.


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## thedude50

I like the winzelof copy's of the distons but I like finding old saws more they were made so well

I wont be around much for a wile I was greeted with divorce papers this morning so I cant deal with life right now


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## JoeinGa

.deleted… oops, gotta pay more attention to what I'm doing, posted this to the wrong thread


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## CL810

Here's another article on saw sharpening.


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## terryR

Bad Axe, Bad Axe, Bad Axe….sorry…the phrase keeps ringing in me head…

Only 3 more weeks till Mark gets around to building my 16" Tenon saw! Black Pearl and Texas Mesquite…

Will it improve my sawyer skills? no. did I NEED it? again, no.

But, will I cherish it, use it, clean it, and sometimes just stare at the workmanship? Can it be re-sharpened by my own hands and used for an entire lifetime? 

carry on…


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## terryR

mos, order that Wenzloff kit, have it mailed to me, email me photo of a tote you like…applewood, walnut, beech, african anything…

I'd be happy to make you a tote! no charge since I'm still an apprentice.


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## donwilwol

I'm not having very good luck. Update from LV, 1 unit backordered., Expected to ship on 03/15/2013


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## lysdexic

Don, I must have missed something. What are you waiting on?


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## donwilwol

guide and files


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## terryR

Don, if it makes ya feel better…
I received the Veritas saw file holder already, but the files I ordered are backorder till March!


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## Brit

Now STOP IT both of you! I wish I was getting mine in March. I doubt they'll even be shipped until June and then they apparently have to go three times around the earth and once to the moon and back before the postman knocks on my door. Now stop your moaning or I'll take your teeth away.


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## donwilwol

Its ok.y teeth have been hurting lately anyhow.

and Terry, it doesn't make me feel any better.


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## ITnerd

For those wanting vintage, but not wanting to futz with it - I can recommend Jon Zimmers selection of panel saws. He seems to regularly have a few nice old panel saws, some sharpened by Wenzloff & Sons.

I have 2 Disston D8s from him (rip and x-cut), both reworked by Wenzloff and I have been very happy with the performance. I had both in my hands 5 days after ordering from him.


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## planepassion

Boy, I can't wait to hear about your experiences with the Veritas saw-filing aid. That little piece of technology looks some serious kind of cool.


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## lysdexic

For you saw sharpening souls waiting for your pretty paper parcel:

http://blog.lostartpress.com/2013/02/16/first-look-veritas-saw-file-holder/


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## AnthonyReed

Mos - My abilities? In most cases fair; in saw tote making, they're abysmal. Mos, take Terry up on his offer… look at his work it is awesome.

Thank you Chris i took a look and will keep Mr. Zimmers in mind if my pursuit for the Wenzloff version of the Harvey Peace falls through.

Thanks for the help guys. I really appreciate it.


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## Mosquito

I probably will, Tony. Planning on getting a 10ppi cross cut, as recommended above.


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## DonBroussard

I think I'm caught in the hand saw (okay, hand planes too) rabbit hole. Today while antiquing with my wife, I bought a saw vise and a saw set. I do want to try to sharpen a few hand saws to see if I can improve their cutting edges. I have a few in my stockade waiting to be sharpened. Here are a few pictures of the saw vise and saw set.










Wentworth's No. 1 Saw Vise. Jaw width is about 11".










Disston Triumph Saw Set

I do have a few questions about sharpening. I know there are enough experts here that know all the answers to my juvenile sharpening questions.

1) Do you clean the plate before proceeding with sharpening and setting?

2) Do you set the saw first and then sharpen, or do the reverse? My instinct tells me to sharpen then set, but that's just noob talk.

3) Do you the set a rip saw different from a crosscut saw?

4) With the kind of vise I have, do you recommend that I sharpen the plate with or without the tote mounted?

5) I will, of course, read Brit's Saw Talk (please notice the capitalization!) for advice, but are there other useful resources to which I should refer?

Thanks in advance for sharing your expertise with me. I appreciate the help!


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## AnthonyReed

Dan - Re: #5, Don W has complied a large list of hand saw resources here.


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## ksSlim

Don
Follow Brit's blog or,
Look up the patent for an antique saw filing guide.
Us patent 575192


----------



## Brit

Don - Here are the answers to your questions:

1) Do you clean the plate before proceeding with sharpening and setting?
A: Yes.

2) Do you set the saw first and then sharpen, or do the reverse?
A: The normal process is Joint, shape, set, joint, sharpen. However, not all saws require all of these steps. If the teeth are in good shape, then you might be able to just joint the teeth and sharpen them. Setting might not be required if the set feels even when running your thumb and first finger along the sides of the teeth from the heel to the toe. In my experience though, most secondhand saws require all five steps and you will almost certainly need to re-apply set if you've cleaned and/or sanded the plate. If the teeth are in really bad shape, you might have to repeat the first two steps before moving on to steps three to five. Having said all that, there are some people who apply set to the teeth last of all, but I think there are good reasons why you should do it prior to sharpening, particularly on a rip saw.

3) Do you set a rip saw differenct from a crosscut saw?
A: No. Most decent old saws were taper-ground. That means the saw plate is thinner along the top edge of the plate than it is along the tooth line. Therefore it will only require a minimal amount of set since the fact that the plate is thinner already provides some clearance. Saws intended for cutting wet wood will require more set than saws for cutting dry softwoods and hardwoods. You want just enough set to prevent the saw from binding in the cut. The more set you apply, the more wood you will be removing and the slower the cut will be.

4) With the kind of vise I have, do you recommend that I sharpen the plate with or without the tote mounted?
A: It doesn't matter. What is important is that the saw plate is supported at the point you are filing as this will reduce any vibration. You will have to move the saw along and re-clamp when filing anything longer than a 10" backsaw.

5) Are there other useful resources to which I should refer?
A: In addition to Don's thread, I posted some links to some good resources in Saw Talk #11


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## DonBroussard

Thanks for all the replies. I have some reading and practicing to do now. My plan is to only ruin, at most, two saws before I can claim to be "almost competent" at sharpening. I hope that goal is not too ambitious.


----------



## Brit

By the way Don, the Disston Triumph saw set you posted is missing a bit so I don't think it will work as it stands. This is what it should look like:










And here is yours for comparison:


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## DonBroussard

@Brit-Well, that's certainly disappointing. Can you tell me what the function of that missing piece is? It looks like it sets some sort of a limit on how deep the plate sits in the saw set. Until I get that part, I guess I won't be setting any hand saws. Thanks again for the response to my novice questions. Between you and DonW, I have a BUNCH of reading to do. I was hoping someone (hint, hint) would have a video showing saw setting and hand sharpening a hand saw . . .


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## terryR

^Yeah, I am also waiting for Andy's full set of Saw Talk DVD's to arrive in the mail…I'm certain that would make me a master in days! Well…IF I can ever buy saw files…

Anyone want my Veritas saw file holder? Don? Andy? I can't do much with it since I have no files


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## Brit

*Don* - You're right in describing the function of the missing piece. I would have thought you could fashion that piece yourself if you wanted to. Either that or put it down to experience and buy another.

*Terry* - Thanks for the offer, but I'm happy to wait until mine turns up. Its not like I haven't got a sharp saw to use in the meantime and it won't delay the video on sharpening at all as I'm not going to wait for it. After all, it is only a convenience tool and not a necessity. I just need to win an auction on a really crappy saw that I'm only buying because the teeth are so bad and I want to show how they can be corrected.


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## terryR

Andy, I can send ya a crappy-toothed saw, too! 
Would ya prefer Disston or Atkins?


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## Mosquito

How about a saw plate with NO teeth, Andy? I've got one of those lol


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## planepassion

Andy,

Re: "2) Do you set the saw first and then sharpen, or do the reverse?"

Your answer maps perfectly onto my experience. The saw-filing guides/advice I've read has placed setting at different places in the process.

For a beginner, I found this very confusing. However, having gotten a bit more experience under my belt, the order you suggest is my favored process right now.

The reasoning is simple, set the teeth to place them in their "final" orientation…THEN apply the final jointing/sharpening onto that foundation. The process of setting changes the orientation of the teeth, and by doing this step last, you're changing the angle of the freshly sharpened teeth in relation to the cut.

Of the dozen joinery, handsaw and panel saws that make up my saw nest, only one (S&J, brass-backed, tenon saw filed rip) saw came to me with too little set. The most common set setting has been too much set, as evidenced by the saw jumping around in the kerf when cutting.

Cleaning the sawplate (sanding and such) does remove some of that set to be sure. So does sharpening. So far I've found that, my saws have come with so much set that even after cleaning and sharpening I don't need to apply more. And on the ones that do need set, I've found that I can use a light hand (read, low to lowest set setting on my saw-set tools) to apply set.

Don,
You can pick up a vintage saw set, and take your chances that it will perform according to its specifications…or you can buy new here. I have both and turn to my new sets because the anvils are more refined. Those vintage sets can be quite beefy, which is just fine with a 5-6 point rip saw. But using them on my fine joinery saws would send shivers up my spine.

I would recommend that you make your own shop saw vise. I've had no luck over two years on tracking down a metal saw vise locally for a reasonable price. I have had excellent results from Robert Lang's shop-made saw vise which was featured in Popular Woodworking Magazine's June 2010 edition. I'm in the process of revising his design to expand the vice jaws to 26" so that I don't have to reclamp a handsaw when filing.

Andy also has a saw vise design worth checking out.


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## planepassion

*Miterbox saw sharpening question.*

What rake, fleam and slope settings do you use to sharpen your miterbox saws?

The reason I ask, is that I'm finished rehabbing my Disston 28" x 5" miter saw and am ready to put a good sharpening on it.

Here's my proposed sharpening specs:

-rake: 25 degrees (this seems a bit much. Normally, I go with 15 degrees for my saws)

-fleam: 30 degrees (this should give me a fine, smooth cut. But would 25 degrees work ok too?)

-slope: 0 degrees (I'm thinking that I'm not going to get much benefit from the small gullets this 11 ppi saw has)

Thoughts?


----------



## Brit

*Terry and Mos* - I might take you up on your offer of the saws. No charge of course. Please could you both post photos and include the length and the PPI of your saws and whether they are sharpened RIP or CROSSCUT. A close-up of the teeth would also be helpful in your case Terry. Mos did you remove the teeth yourself and if so, what PPI were you intending to file the new teeth at and did you want a rip saw or a crosscut saw? What do you primarily want to use the saw for?


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## donwilwol

I'm with Andy Terry. You know what would happen. The post man would deliver 2 in the same day. Thanks for the offer though.


----------



## Brit

*Brad* - I would go with 25 degrees of rake and 30 degrees of fleam on a miterbox saw.


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## Mosquito

Andy, that would be amazing. I did file them off myself. They varied in size so badly that by the time I got it jointed, some of them had flat spots as big as 1/16" while others were just barely touched. So I decided to just go all the way down (almost there). I just haven't gotten to filing new teeth. That part I haven't ever done yet, so a little nervous about that.

It's 10" 0ppi lol I was open for suggestions, but was thinking somewhere around 14ppi. I intend to use it for a small tenon/joinery saw. I would probably go crosscut if going with dedicated. I had also thought about researching and going with crosscut but closer to 0 rake to achieve more of a hybrid cut.

I used it in my chalk/cork board to make the small tenons, before I filed it down. At that point, I hadn't sharpened it yet, and it was in very desperate need of it.


















I've got a second saw that I've had for a little bit that is in need of some work. It's 12", 12ppi, and I believe it's filed rip, with a fairly heavy set. This saw hasn't been cleaned up at all, but the teeth are in much better shape than the other saws were. Spine needs to be set again too, it's lifted by the tote.


















You're welcome to either one if it helps you with your sharpening blog/video.


----------



## DonBroussard

@kaSlim-I looked up that patent you referenced in Post 2850 above, but it points to a general patent filing for a saw vise. I admit that I didn't read the entire patent filing.

@Brad-Thanks for the source for saw sets. The prices look pretty reasonable-actually very close to what I paid for the Disston Triumph. Also, I have seen Brit's saw vise Sketchup plan and blog-top quality and thoughtful design!

The saw vise I bought is complete, except that it needs new "rubbers". I need to get a washing machine hose and glue that in place before I put a plate in it.


----------



## OnlyJustME

Another article with good pictures to read.


----------



## Brit

*Mos* - I'll shoot you a PM with my address. I would definitely be interested in doing the first saw in the video since I wanted to show how to file new teeth in one of my scenarios. Find out how much it will cost to send the first saw with the handle and bolts and if it isn't any more expensive to send them both at the same time, do that and I'll restore and sharpen both of them for you free of charge if you are willing to pay the postage. Hopefully it won't be too expensive since they are both small saws. If it is too expensive for you then don't worry, I'm sure I can find one my end to use in the video.


----------



## terryR

Andy, if you still want some calves and cows, I have a fair example…









Disston 10", filed rip at 15 ppi according to my eyes. Decent etch…










...close up isn't the best…sorry…

If you just want BOTH saws from Mos, that's cool. I've been playing at the lathe all day…


----------



## Brit

*Terry* - It looks like 15ppi to me too. I've just been PMing with Mos. He thinks it will cost him $50-60 to send the saw to me and I've just got a quote of $45 to send the saw back to him. It isn't cheap is it?

However as I said to Mos, I'm happy to sharpen them for you both free of charge, if you are happy to pay for the postage. Personally I think it is too expensive, but it is your call my friends. Let me know. I'm sure I can find a suitable saw my end if not.


----------



## Mosquito

I'm pretty sure that it would be cheaper if Terry sent his to me, and I sent them out, or the other way around (I will be sending something to him anyway). That way we can split the shipping both ways, if it's cheaper.

E-mail coming your way, Terry.


----------



## ksSlim

Don B>
I'll try to post some scanned images.


----------



## terryR

Wow, shipping to the UK is outrageous…sorry, Andy, I'd love to have a saw in your video, but cannot afford the price of fame this month. 

Hopefully Mos can swing the bill for two saws since he's getting a free saw handle pretty soon.


----------



## carguy460

Anybody up for a worn out question?

I'm nearing completion of my basement remodel, and - assuming I can get it painted this weekend - my wife is going to let me go to the LN event in KC next weekend, and make a purchase…

I'm in the market for joinery saws, so "tell me what saw to buy!" (Written in jest to the hundreds of posts asking that question on this site - and no offense intended).

But, the question isn't Veritas vs LN, its dovetail vs tenon…not that I don't plan to have both someday soon, but I'm only going to use one loving wife coupon this time. So, can the esteemed expert panel help me decide?

I want to cut dovetails, but I also would like to cut tight tenons, and probably rebates (spelled just for Andy) and dadoes (grooves, right?). Seems that maybe the tenon saw would be the best choice, but is it a functional dovetail saw? Or would the DT saw have enough capacity to cut most tenons? If you could only have one (filed rip), which would it be?

Thoughts please???


----------



## OnlyJustME

I'm no expert (barely a novice) about hand saws but i would guess it depends mostly on the size of the joints you will be making. Will the dovetail saw be deep enough to cut the cheek on your tenon? Will it be long enough to cut your dadoes/rebates? Can a tenon saw cut a dovetail? My thinking would be to lean towards the tenon saw. I think a tenon saw could cut most dovetails; just a little bit more cumbersome to use and such would need more practice for different muscle memory. But again I'm no expert maybe a neophyte.


----------



## lysdexic

Jason,

Just listened to a podcast this morning where this question came up (Woodtalk #120). If I remember correctly, they agreed with OJM. If they were to buy two backsaws they would be a tenon saw (these will cut dovetails) and a X-cut carcase saw.

They also espoused the virtues of the Veritas saws - quality and cost. Your $$ goes a lot further with Veritas. However, you do have to accept the aesthetics.


----------



## Mosquito

I would buy based on which you think you'll be doing more of sooner. I bought a LN dovetail saw before I had a tenon saw. I made it work for smaller tenon joints, and it worked ok. I don't think I'd want to do dovetails with my tenon saw, though, for reasons stated previously.

Could always try to use that "wife coupon" to sneak in a #51, sell it, and buy both


----------



## lysdexic

Mos - I like the way you think.

The above is not my advice. Personally I bought a Veritas dovetail saw first and really liked it. But then sold that and ended up with a LN DT saw.


----------



## ShaneA

Jason, are you a member of the KC WW Guild? I have no experience, lol…but an opinion, yeah I am that guy. The Veritas saws are quite a bit cheaper. How close would it be to get both Veritas saws vs one LN? Strangely, the LV bench planes do nothing for me aesthetically. However, the saws…I think they look great, I have 3 of them. They are not the natural beauties the LN, but really nice.


----------



## carguy460

Excellent advice already, just as I expected.

OJM - I knew the answer would hinge on how deep (long) my normal tenons would be…I honestly don't know, being a true newbie to the craft. I anticipate more tenons than dovetails in my near future, but don't really know stock size just yet…hence the leaning towards the tenon saw…

Scotty B Yo - interesting timing, that podcast…I will have to check it out when I'm back to a computer…

Mos - again, dunno yet for sure what I'll be doing more of…but like OJM mentioned regarding DT's with a tenon saw, that's what I'm concerned about…and nice call on the 51, but my huevos aint big enough to try to slip that by…

Shane - I'm not a member, I'm a bit far to make it worthwhile, though last years LN event made me consider it…nice shop they have! I priced the LV saws and could damn near get a 3 saw set for the price of 1 LN, but I am really hung up on the looks. Stupid, I know, but if I buy the LV saws, I will likely never own a LN, and they are so good looking…yes, sometimes I buy things based on asthetics, assuming performance isn't lost…this LV vs LN comment is for Scotty too…


----------



## carguy460

Perhaps I should ask this - has anyone had success cutting DT's with a tenon saw?

Also forgive any spelling/grammer/content errors…on my phone, long day, and a few Moose Drool 12 ouncers in…


----------



## Mosquito

I have… but they were of larger than average size









What I did was use the saw bench, and cut with the saw vertically, as opposed to horizontal. But that may be due to the fact that I was cutting them in 1.5" thick hard maple, or 1.5" thick red oak…


----------



## carguy460

I reckon I haven't thought about cutting joints on the sawbench…it seems to work flawlessly, according to that pic Mos…


----------



## Mosquito

I did it mainly because the pin board in that picture was 51" long, so I couldn't really clamp it vertically, and instead of trying to clamp it at an angle, or whatever, I might as well just cut them on the saw bench, where I could get almost directly over what I was cutting. Worked out alright.


----------



## CL810

Car guy -

Bad Axe tool works makes a 12" hybrid dovetail/small tenon saw which I have.  It's a great saw and I have cut a lot of DT's with it. .

It works. It's a great saw. And the 2.5" depth of cut Gives you more options

BUT this past Black Monday I purchased a 14 TPI dovetail saw from LeeValley. It too is a very good saw but is much smaller. I really like both saws.

So, to answer your question, yes you can cut DT's with a small tenon saw just fine. But I would never fault anyone for buying two or three LV saws for the price of a Bad Axe or LN or whoever.

Don't know if that helped or not! Lol.


----------



## Mosquito

Those are some strong dovetails, CL810.

For what it's worth, if I could afford it, my shop would be outfitted with a complete set of Bad Axe saws, and probably some Wenzloff and Sons panel saws with some curly mahogany handles ;-) But my tax return won't be THAT healthy lol


----------



## racerglen

I think someone meantioned saw sets ?









Most are late 1800's patents, into the early 1900's..exceptions are the 2 Eclipse ones, top right and lower left and the Very recognizable Handyman in it's clown colors of orange and blue..









And from the same early day period, these are filing guides for the big crosscut saws, logger types.


----------



## ksSlim

Last 4 look like floats.


----------



## carguy460

Great input guys, thanks!

I could buy a LV Dovetail AND Carcass saw for 144 (less shipping) and be completely covered…add another $76 and I could have a nice crosscut saw too…Just the Lie Nielsen dovetail saw is $125…

That said, I'm still sticking with LN. Its kinda been a dream of mine to own some LN tools, and likely a set of joinery saws will be my only chance.

I've looked into Bad Axe, and I think they are awesome saws, but they are a little out of my price range…however I will probably own one in the next 5 years or so, just because of the cool factor!

I think I'm going to go with the LN Rip Carcass saw…smaller than a tenon saw, but with 2 1/4" depth of cut…that should get me through most tenon operations I'm guessing (just a guess, correct me if you think I'm way off).

Thanks again guys!


----------



## chrisstef

I think youre making a good choice Jason. Buy the saw you want. The smaller carcass saw is what i have been using to cut DT's, albeit the Veritas and not the LN. For about 80% of my operations that would cut my tenons just fine. You could always use your routah if the tenons get too big … 

Ive gotta say though that the aesthetics of the Veritas saws have grown on me. Not as much as a my vintage Disston but … ya know … jus sayin.


----------



## carguy460

Yeah stef, the more I've been forced to look at those damn modern Veritas saws the more "normal" they seem to me…

I think I saw that the Veritas small carcass saw has 2 3/8" cut depth, so I'm guessing its a little bigger than the LN, but probably not as heavy…

Thats it…it is settled (I think, unless someone sways me to the dovetail saw)...gotta finish that damn basement!

EDIT: What I REALLY want is a set of vintage backsaws, but have yet to come across one in my rust hunts…but if I find some of those I will be picking them up, new saw or not!


----------



## Mosquito

That's a solid choice, with good reasoning, Jason. I will not judge for wanting an LN. I'll admit that's a big factor as to why I picked LN when I bought a dovetail saw. I like that it's made in the US, I like the aesthetics, and I just wanted one. That was enough for me, so I can't find fault in anyone else wanting one for the same. Besides, it sounds like you deserve it with the completion of the basement remodel 

And I totally agree on the vintage backsaws. I've been trying to put together a set of backsaws. I've got a vintage dovetail sized saw, and 2 closed handle back saws, 10" and 12". I just have to get them sharpened up and ready to use…


----------



## lysdexic

I told this story before…

When I was taking a class with a well know woodworker and TV personality the topic of back saws and tool selection came up. Specifically the Veritas back saws were being discussed. The instructors take was a little shocking but concise. I paraphrase.

"These saws are like p*ss>-, they are ugly but they sure do feel good."

I was like "dang bro, oh no you didn't." Seriously, it took me off guard but obviously left impression. Since that comment I have had a slight suspicion the Roy posts here regularly as Stef.


----------



## chrisstef

Stef = Roy … not if i gotta wear overalls and the corny hat. Stef's got style. Roy's got skills. But ya know, ive never stared into the toilet after a good whiz and been like "ya know thats really ugly" but sometimes I will ponder at how much i may have raised the water level.

Waay off topic here but any plumbers in the house? Ive got a toilet on the 1st floor and the flapper dont always flap. It seems when the toilet runs for a long period of time i get a stench in the basement. Im on septic and have had it pumped recently. This has been an ongoing phenominon (sp?) and until recently i havent connected the dots but after the toilet running for 4 hours overnight last week i walked downstairs and it smelled like week old indian food wrapped in a used baby diaper. Any thoughts?


----------



## terryR

Great choice, Jason. choosing ONE saw is nearly impossible! 

When I bought my FIRST LN tool…a 14" rip tenon saw…I received an email a week later from none other than Kirsten Lie Nielsen. hope I spelled her name correctly.

She thanked me for my order, wanted to make sure the saw shipped OK, blah, blah, blah…I figured it was just a form email with my name copied in the header. So, just for heck of it, I replied…I mentioned how I loved the saw after ONE day, every detail was nicely finished, so sharp it cuts pine too fast! I also mentioned my love for old Disstons and rusty saws…and thanked them for keeping their business in america…this was all going to be read by NO ONE I thought anyways…

Wrong. The next morning, I received another email from Kirsten! She said she was glad to hear one of their saws went to such a saw lover as me! She said they were PROUD to make tools in america, and took pride in their workmanship! She passed my email around verbally, and several other workers were honored to hear of THEIR tenon saw hanging next to vintage.

very cool…


----------



## Brit

Be honest Terry, you were only trying to get them to send you the crosscut version free of charge weren't you?


----------



## Mosquito

That is pretty cool, Terry.

I'm planning on going to the Lie-Nielsen hand tool event that's here in a few weeks. We'll see what happens lol


----------



## terryR

LOL, Andy…yeah, I'd do anything to field test tools for them!

Mos, don't carry the credit card with ya.


----------



## OnlyJustME

You should always have a huge credit card balance because when the zombie apocalypse comes it all goes out the window. 

Stef I think you missed a letter on what those saws are like, it ended in y.


----------



## chrisstef

Ohhhh now i see …. hey was saying that the saws were like a beaver and love to chew wood. Now i gets it.


----------



## CL810

+10 on the whole *carguy *discussion. What can get better than a 100 year old 12" Disston right next to the LV DT saw and a Bad Axe/LN?

Where I think the LV really comes in handy is with smaller stock.

Man I love saws. I see this addiction going hard core. And as long as the vintage are cheap, why not? Now we know what Smitty probably felt like before Baileys went mainstream.

Goal for this summer is to learn how to properly restore saws including sharpening. Too many "to-dos" right now. Can't wait for Andy's how-to blog/video/dvd/private instruction/book to come out. Andy you should send your outline for the video to a publisher. No BS.


----------



## need2boat

I've been a little busy the last week or so with regular work and the saw biz but wanted to throw this observation out and Andy it might be an interesting topic for your saw blog series.

As of late we've been talking a lot about new saws from LN, Miike wenzloff, bad axe, TFWW, or Isaac Smith's aka blackburn. And to that I would say they all use the same steel and who knows It may all come from the same manufacture. Spring steel is common place these days. So steel aside your buying the manufacture or makers ability to copy or modernize a classic handle and sharpening it. Making it largely about what you like and what you want to spend.

LN used a classic 20/30's No. 4 Disston
Mikes makes a number of copies
Mark at Bad Ax used a WMC design. 
Not sure about Joel at TFWW but it's for sure UK. 
Isaac's is a little more personal but ques from early US designs.

I always though the best of all worlds is to replace the plate on a vintage saw. New steel just holds an edge crisper and at the same time you get the feel and look of a classic saw.

food for thought anyway

Joe


----------



## dbray45

Jason - I use several saws to cut dovetails. Rip and crosscut for pins and tails (grain direction), different sizes of saws depending upon the thickness of the material. The different sizes also includes different ppi.

It depends more upon what you are comforable with, what you are doing, level of acuracy, etc…


----------



## Brit

*Carguy* - I'm glad I wasn't able to repond to your question, because I don't think I could pick just one saw now, no matter how hard I tried. Somewhere between 30-50 is my ideal I think. LOL. Joking aside, the LN rip carcase saw is a good compromise and a saw that I'm sure you'll enjoy. Later on, you can always get a bigger tenon saw and a smaller dovetail saw and re-file your rip carcase saw to crosscut.


----------



## Brit

*CL810* - I don't want this to sound like I'm being overly generous, but I'm sure it will come across that way when I say that I wouldn't want to profit from the video I'm recording on saw sharpening. It honestly would be payment enough if just one woodworker learnt to sharpen their own saws as a result. Anyhow, you haven't seen it yet buddy, it might be a heap of crap. )


----------



## donwilwol

Andy, have you seen most of the stuff on TV lately?


----------



## dbray45

Andy - One of the things that I have noted - in many of the "how to" videos (even ones that I have bought), there is usually a key step or two missing. Sometimes this happens because the person is so used to doing it that they figure that the missing step is understood. Sometimes the video is done to promote them and not how to perform the task.

In your case, it will be a video that I want to watch. I have sharpened my hand saws for a few years but even then, I am still looking at new or different techniques.


----------



## Brit

Thanks David. I agree wholeheartedly. I hope that one of the advantages of me producing this video is that I can still remember all the things that confused me when I started sharpening saws. My approach is not to assume any prior knowledge, to explain all the terminology and why I'm doing what I'm doing as I go along. I'm still in the planning stage at the moment and next I need to draw a load of annotated diagrams. At the weekends I'm busy preparing the saws that I'll use during the demonstrations. It is a lot of work, but I know I would have benefitted from a video such as this when I started.


----------



## chrisstef

Andy - Can we get a list of gear that one should procure prior to your video coming out? Once your video hits the market im sure it will be impossible to find saw files due to the influx in home saw sharpening. Kinda like hitting the grocery store before the storm rolls in. I wanna be prepped for the big day. Seriously.


----------



## Brit

Yes Stef, I'll prepare a list tonight and post it on my saw blog. Just about to give a big presentation now to some city slickers so gotta go. Talk later.


----------



## dbray45

Andy - ask a friend that knows nothing about saw sharpening to watch your video and then do it. You will find all of the things that you don't explain well - in a hurry.


----------



## need2boat

i wanted to follow up to Tony's question about my recommendation for the 10ppi.

Most of what I've read about selecting pitch or ppi has to do with wood and really doesn't take into account the user. I've been giving that last part some thought as I cut down some gummy yellow heartpine 100+ year old stuff. Some pieces are 4+" thick. I started off using a 6ppi cross cut saw and just couldn't find a good rhythm or cadence.

This got me thinking to years back when I was a gear head into BMX and then road bikes. Anyway overtime you realize that everyone has there own cadence. If you can fine the right balance been effort and gain you can keep going forever and it has nothing to do with how thick the wood is.

It's the speed you walk or your swing of a bat. Anyway I found that for me, I'm 5'8" 160 pounds I needed a higher ppi and found 9 worked really well for the thicker stuff but I've got a 10ppi I just use a lot and 1ppi isn't a deal breaker.

Anyway more food for though and now we can get back to Andy's video. I'm sure which will be first rate. It will be the second British invasion just let us know when the word tour start. ;-)

Joe


----------



## DonBroussard

@Brit-If you need a newbie to demonstrate the wrong way to do hand saw sharpening, I'm your man. Please let me know when the auditions are scheduled. BTW, I won't be "acting" to demonstrate poor techniques! And I already have a passport too.


----------



## carguy460

Thank you all for your input on my saw choice question! The LN rip carcass saw will be my very first brand new tool…I am quite excited, though I fear that they won't have any at the event in KC and I'll end up having to wait for one to ship, which would be torture…

I'm still on the hunt for vintage back saws…I'm not sure where they all are hiding, all I ever find are painted panel saws.


----------



## AnthonyReed

Thanks Joe.

Glad you were able to come to decision Jason, hope they have it in stock for you at the event.


----------



## Brit

Joe - You raise a good point. I've noticed that too. There isn't necessarily a right a wrong ppi for any given cut. Sometimes a certain saw just feels right and like you say, you can go on forever.


----------



## bandit571

Tried out a "New" Mitersaw today









Had some corner blocks to make









Arm might be a bit tired…


----------



## ksSlim

ten point xcut?


----------



## bandit571

A $5 Atkins panel saw, about an 11 pointer. The "normal" saw was just way too dull. Might just get a new blade for it. The Atkins didn't do too badly, at least now it saws straight….


----------



## planepassion

Andy, I sharpened my Disston miterbox saw (Millers Falls miterbox etching) this morning per your specifications. 25 degrees rake and 30 degrees fleam, 0 degrees slope…..It cuts like a dream. Leaves a very smooth finish. I was originally concerned that the 30 degree fleam would be too extreme an angle. But the proof that it isn't is in the nice cuts it makes.

The 28" length really works well too. It's long enough so that I don't pull it out of the saw guide on the backstroke, and short enough so that I can operate it atop my workbench without hitting the wall that it's up against. And this puppy has some heft. Not Smitty's heft and hubris kind, but the good kind. Where the momentum of the saw helps move the cut along.


----------



## Brit

Glad it worked out for you Brad. Miterbox saws are something we rarely see this side of the pond. I don't know why that is exactly, but in the two years that I've been watching saws on ebay.co.uk, I think I've only seen two saws and one of those wasn't worth buying. I think the other one went for just under £70. Strange but true.


----------



## Brit

Anyone who follows my Saw Talk blog will know how much I love the feel of the totes on my W. Tyzack, Sons and Turner backsaws. Well when I saw this, I knew I had to have it. 5 1/2 TPI 26" rip saw. I used a bidding technique that I don't often use and is reserved only for items like this that to me are more than just fine tools. It is high risk. There were 7 bidders and the price stood at £12.50. With 30 seconds to go, I entered my maximum bid of £60.57 and sat with my mouse cursor hovering over the Confirm Bid button, poised to strike. 10 sec, 9, 8, 7, 6, CLICK. I was hoping to get it for under £30.00, but the price jumped up to £42.93 and I won the auction. It was a bit more than I really wanted to pay, but I'm consoling myself with the fact that it will only need a bit of a clean and a sharpen. Don't get me wrong, I think the saw is worth double that once sharpened. It just came as a shock when I saw it jump so much. I guess I'm not the only saw lover in the UK.

Seller's photos.

It has a good useable plate with no missing teeth



















Made at the Little London Works, Sheffield from Tyzacks' best quality cast steel, (London Spring Steel).










The nib is still intact and nicely formed










The tote seems to be in remarkable condition for a saw of this vintage and is tightly fixed to the plate.


----------



## OnlyJustME

Nice score Andy. Over here we call that sniping. She's a beaut. I've only ever seen backsaws made by them.


----------



## Brit

Thanks. I know some people frown upon sniping, but it is legal on ebay and anyone can do it either using automated software to place their bid or manually as I did to win the saw. Apparently eBay Germany banned the use of automatic sniping tools back in 2002 and the Berlin County Court overturned it, so it was revoked.

The only problem with sniping is that sometimes, for whatever reason, your bid might not register in time.


----------



## lysdexic

Andy, you will enjoy that exquisite saw for years. The extra £12.93 will soon be forgotten.

Enjoy!


----------



## Brit

What £12.93? Don't remember that Scot.


----------



## Mosquito

I was hoping to get it for under £30.00, but the price jumped up to £42.93 and I won the auction.


----------



## Brit

Mos, I was pretending that I had already forgotten it.


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## CL810

Wonderful purchase Andy. It's easy to see why you like the Tyzac tote - just gorgeous!


----------



## planepassion

Saw: £42.93…

Heart-pumping handle replete with lambs-tongue and other ornate details + split nuts…Mona Lisa etching…intact nib…sawplate in fine shape…Priceless.


----------



## Brit

I've passed your findings on to the wife Brad. I'm sure it will be OK. LOL.


----------



## knockknock

If anyone is interested, Woodcraft has lowered the price on their 85th Aniversary saw to be more in line with Bad Axe pricing. Here's mine


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## Brit

Lovely saw KnockKnock. You can't go wrong with that. Hybrid filing?


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## knockknock

Yes, it is hybrid filing. I made a few trial cuts, and I like it.


----------



## OnlyJustME

Is that an etch or is it just ink stamped?


----------



## knockknock

Good question, I don't know. It is black, except when I get the light reflecting off of it, then it looks like striated metal.


----------



## loneisle

Folks

What is "hybrid filing".
I have picked up a few cheap used backsaws and a saw filing kit from Lee Valley in the hope of learning how to sharpen my own handsaws.

Thanks
Dan


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## knockknock

Hybrid filing is a compromise filing that works for both cross cutting and ripping. The advantage for me, is that I only have to buy one saw in this size, instead of two.

As for filing and setting a saw, someone who knows more will have to answer.


----------



## loneisle

Thanks knockknock, that's exactly what I am looking for.
I have a Disston 12" and a Disston 16" that I would like to sharpen.These saws were in rough shape and my attempt to sharpen them resulted in a very uneven tooth line. In a moment of weakness I jointed the teeth completely off both saws, so I now have a couple blank canvases to play with . If someone could suggest the proper pitch, rake, fleam and slope to sharpen these "Hybrid", it would be greatly appreciated.

As a little background.
I am new to this site. I have had a woodworking shop for many years. I recently retired and with my new found time I have taken a much greater interest in hand tool woodworking. So far I find it much more relaxing than working with machines, but I don't think I would ever be a total hand tool convert. .
What I have learned so far, is that your tools need to be sharp. I have refurbished and sharpened a few old planes and I am amazed at how well they work. My sharpening results with handsaws has not been as successful, hopefully this will change with some more practice.

Thanks


----------



## donwilwol

loneisle, look at Andy's Saw Talk series
I'm in a similar situation. I'm having some trouble cutting new teeth. I can sharpen ok, but re-cutting is giving me fits. I know part of my problem was files, so I've got s new set of files ordered along with the new guide Lee Valley just came out with.


----------



## Brit

Loneisle - Whilst I obviously would not discourage you from looking through all of my Saw Talk blog series, this post and the on after it deal specifically with combination or hybrid filings.

FYI - I am in the process of planning a comprehensive video on Saw Sharpening for Beginners and as part of that I will be dealing with removing the existing teeth entirely and filing in new teeth. To ensure you don't miss the video (it will be a few weeks yet as it is a lot of work to prepare the saws that I'll be sharpening), make sure you elect to WATCH the series and then you will receive a notification when the video is posted.


----------



## donwilwol

Andy, how do you "WATCH" a series? I actually listed that as a site improvement once. Can you do that?


----------



## Brit

Don - If you click Watch on any of the posts contained in a series then you will receive a notification of any new posts and/or updates to existing posts. It seems to work for me.


----------



## donwilwol

right, but if a new blog is added to the series, you will not be notified. As far as I know, the only way to do that is add the author as a buddy.


----------



## Brit

Yeah you're right Don, I forgot that important step.


----------



## loneisle

Thanks for the replies, I guess I have some reading to do.


----------



## terryR

Nice score, Andy! She's definately worth more than that! Excellent tote…

I thought everyone bid on eBay like that…I DO. 

Just bid $100 in the last 20 seconds and hope some bloak didn't just place a $95 snipe at the same time! Doh!


----------



## Airframer

Just got this little guy.

I was in the need for a good backsaw for some tenon cuts on my workbench build. I searched all the newer brands and some of the cheaper selections and they were either WAY out of my price range or just looked cheap and I already have a cheap one so no thanks.

Off to the bay I went and found this guy with 0 bids and half an hour left. Tossed $40 on the board and in the course of a TV show it was mine. This is exactly how I received it! It looks and cuts like it was brand new however I have no idea how old it actually is. From my limited research all I can say for sure is that it was made after 1906. So here is my new W. Tyzack, Sons & Turner No.120 backsaw.





































If anyone has any info on this I would love to hear it.


----------



## ksSlim

Check with Brit or Andy as some know him.


----------



## Brit

*Airframer* - I'm not sure exactly when Tyzack's started making the No.120, but I would guess it was in the early 1970s. They were still making them in the 1980s. By the end of the 1980s the company was finished, after a two year management buyout ended in receivership. I believe the No.120 was the last in a long line of quality saws made by W. Tyzack, Sons & Turner.

I have the 14" version.










I chose to reshape the handle a bit (well quite a lot actually) to make it more comfortable. I still don't particularly like the feel of it, but it is better than it was. The saw cuts really well after I sharpened it.


----------



## Airframer

Thanks Andy. I had a look at your blog earlier and then went to look at my saw. It is the 12" version. I had a look down the blade and it is straight as an arrow not a hint of wavyness to be seen. The handle fits my hand fine and the weight is just right. It appears to have been recently sharpened and my test cuts are very easy going so as far as I can tell this thing is ready to rock. It was even shipped to me with the blade guard on it. I might take some Brasso to the spine to shine it up a bit but that will be it for now.


----------



## OnlyJustME

Nice acquisition Airframer.


----------



## carguy460

Basement remodel nearing completion…required items prior to Kansas City Lie-Nielsen event:

Framing - check!
Wiring - Check!
Drywall - Check!
Paint - Check, Check, Check!
Carpet - scheduled to be installed Monday - Check!

Lie Nielsen hand tool event on Saturday - basement done enough according to wife on Thursday night…










Rip Carcass saw, here I come! Ok, sorry, I'm just a little excited and had to share with yall! Assuming they have a saw with them, I'll be posting a pic of my first brand new tool tomorrow!

Carry on.


----------



## donwilwol

If they don't have it with them Jason, they will mail it


----------



## Brit

Jason - Why don't you phone LN and ask them to bring one with them and reserve it for you so you can purchase it at the event?


----------



## carguy460

That is a great idea, Andy! I'm afraid they are already here though, so I'm too late. I will have to keep that in mind for next time though.

How long will I have to wait if they mail it? I don't know if I'll be able to contain myself if I don't have it in hand tomorrow…


----------



## chrisstef

Yea Jason! Youre gonna be one happy fella once you can sit back and canoodle with that new saw in the freshly remodded basement. Then make sure you track some fresh sawdust through it.


----------



## carguy460

My plan is to somehow use that saw when I do the trim work…don't know how I'll work that in, but I'll try…


----------



## mochoa

Jason, I'm still waiting on my LN DT saw from the Atlanta event. Highland is going to ship it to me free once they get it. I guess its been about 3 weeks. I better follow up and see how thats going.


----------



## mochoa

Correction, its been 4 weeks.


----------



## carguy460

That is NOT what I wanted to hear, Mauricio…After about a year of deciding on the right saw and 2 months of feverishly working to meet my completion deadline, I don't know that I could stand another month of waiting. And dang man, you bought the DT saw, fairly common saw I'd say…I'm after a rip carcass saw, I'm sure they don't move as fast as the DT saws, so my guess is I'll be waiting even longer…ARG


----------



## mochoa

Jason, I'd check availability directly from LN. Maybe they prioritize direct orders over retailers? If they don't have it at the event at least you'll get to try it out there, then go online and order it. Or, order it now, go to the event to get a preview.


----------



## carguy460

Ok, I just sent an email asking about the availability of the saw…I don't know what I'm going to do when they tell me it will be a month…cry, probably…


----------



## need2boat

Jason,

I didn't follow the full thread but if you're talking about contacting LN. I find calling them is way faster.

JFF


----------



## carguy460

Good point…I probably should have done that.

And wow…as I typed that above line I actually got a response from LN. Looks like my saw will ship Wednesday at the latest…so I guess any pictures I post tomorrow will be of someone elses saw!


----------



## mochoa

Great news Jason. So you are just ordering it directly from LN?


----------



## carguy460

No, she said to order it at the event because thats the cheapest way to go.


----------



## chrisstef

Dont hit any cut nails with the new saw Jason


----------



## OnlyJustME

Don't hit any bones with the new saw either.


----------



## racerglen

And SMILE !!!!!


----------



## carguy460

Thanks everyone for the advice and support on this saw decision and purchase…I'm 14 hours away from buying my first new tool purchase, and I can't hardly contain myself!

If anyone is attending the KC LN event tomorrow, I'll be the guy in a grey hoodie, green Notre Dame hat, and a gnarly beard…like hobo beard style. Stop me and say hello!


----------



## lysdexic

Jason, I have only been to one LN event and found it intoxicating. The way I describe it - it is like walking into the Emerald City except everything is A2 steel, bronze and cherry wood. Tell us what you think.


----------



## terryR

Holy steel and brass, I wish LN had a tool show down here in the south! Of course, most folks down here in Alabama are too busy watching college football to have a real hobby!

I just bought an LN shoulder plane of the www…3 weeks to wait!

Arrrrrrgh! I wanted instant gratification! 

Congrats, Jason! Hope you have a new tool by today's end…


----------



## carguy460

Ahh, the sweet feeling of purchasing a new tool…I am now enjoying looking at the receipt since they didn't have the saw there…may ship as early as Monday, no later than Wednesday.

Scotty, this is my second event, and it is just as you describe. Its an absolute wonderland of awesomeness, and getting the chance to play with all of their tools is like a dream. Benchcrafted was there with a gorgeous french bench…I spent a solid hour with that bench just looking, touching, running the vises…my wife even thought it was beautiful, and was almost excited when I told her that was similar to what I wanted to build.

Also got to see the new leg vise cross device…can't remember which saint its named after…That thing was sweet! I clamped a small board about 30 times in it, admiring the awesomeness…


----------



## ShaneA

Sounds like a good time. I have never been to a KC Woodworker's Guild event before. I do get their emails though. Congrats.


----------



## AnthonyReed

Congrats Jason. The St. Peter's Cross looks very cool, i wonder if it is a pain to install.


----------



## carguy460

Shane - the LN event is the only thing I've done with the guild, and I'm not a member, but the people are nice and helpful. I'd join if I was closer.

Tony - we discussed installation, and it seemed pretty simple. There are 2 versions of it, 1 for new build and 1 for retrofit. They both seemed easy enough, but I could be wrong.


----------



## Brit

Congrats Jason. You're going to love it. Pretty soon, you'll be wanting one of these and some poor sucker to pull the other end.

Does your chainsaw cut like this?


----------



## lysdexic

Does your chainsaw cut like this?

My arms don't look like that either.


----------



## terryR

Thanks for posting that video, Andy! I had to watch it twice to understand what the chap was trying to say using such a stong accent! 

But, ohhh, what would I give to work with that fellow a few weeks! Love his attitude. Love his work ethic. Love the saws…and, NO…my chainsaw doesn't cut like that. He's an impressive man with valuable skills!

Ya know, I've never come across an article on how to sharpen these logging saws…I've had 2 nearly given to me, but I didn't know they could be restored and sharpenend. Lots to learn…


----------



## ksSlim

Thanks, for the Great video Andy.


----------



## Mosquito

watching that video reminded me of going to and watching Lumber Jack days. They have all kinds of stuff, including 2 and single man cross cut (as well as womens, and mixed). I can't find a good video of it at the moment, but they also had "Unlimited Hot Saw" competitions, where they would use snowmobile engines on their chainsaws, 3 cuts, down, up, down, within a certain amount of space, fastest time wins. Some of these saws would come in with times of 4 seconds. It was nuts.

Still way more impressive with the ones you posted, though.


----------



## Brit

Terry - I beleive there is quite a bit of information on sharpening this type of crosscut saw on the internet. It is great to see that there are people keeping the skill alive.


----------



## terryR

Andy, I'm already searching with Bing…but if you have resources with info, please pass along.

I'm bitten!


----------



## Brit

I'll see what I can find Terry.

I loved the part in the video when he said:

"It's a lonely job sitting out there on your own, filing. And its hard on me wife, but I take her out for tea every now and then and buy her presents, but you don't want to do it too often, 'cause then they expect it all the time."


----------



## Brit

Terry try these links.

http://www.bchw.org/Tech%20tips/Crosscut%20Sharpening.htm
http://saw.swiftwatertel.com/crosscut-saw.html
http://salmoncreekcrosscutsaws.com/crosscut-saw-sharpening.html
http://greencascadia.blogspot.co.uk/2011/05/lets-sharpen-crosscut-saw.html
http://www.sharpcrosscut.com/


----------



## Brit

Personally, I think this is more up my street. Can't imagine why it didn't catch on. )


----------



## AnthonyReed

Admiring his physique are you Lys?


----------



## terryR

Andy, thanks for those links!

Wow, if sharpening these old logging saws is a dying skill, then COLLECTING them must be in full fashion…prices on kneeBay are quite high for a saw with no missing teeth! I'll have to start small…

Nah, to me, that bicycle saw looks painful. 

Two big Swedish boys is the way to go! oooh, that sounded bad…


----------



## lysdexic

Tony, having the skills to sharpen a saw like that is phenomenal in its own right. However, it takes two dudes like that to handle it then it is a moot point. For me at least….


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

New 'reclaim' job in the queue… The handle has a somewhat unusual shape, medallion is WS. An older saw plate, with nib. Took a razor blade and carefully scraped for an etch… Oh-so-faint, and can't make it out. Only what appears to be the word 'perfection' or some derivative on the last line (not trying to claim Atkins, just a guess at a word hardly legible). So TBD on that. 26" long, "7" stamped at the base of the teeth, under the handle.


----------



## Brit

Smitty - I'm confused. Usually the etch would be on the other side of the saw plate, the medallion side.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

And that's where it is. I only took one pic, and this is the side I captured; it has some pretty-close-to-pitting corrosion I was investigating, also with the razor blade.


----------



## Brit

Well what are the chances of this. I've just won another W. Tyzack, Sons & Turner saw. Remember I won this one a couple of weeks ago:

*26" 5 1/2 TPI* for £42.95


















Well now it won't feel lonely. This *24" 9 TPI* panel saw will be joining it. Cost £18.00


















Looks like the handle has been badly refinished at some point, so I will probably end up refinishing both handles at some point. The plate on the latest one looks like it has never been sharpened. The handle is a later style too, but still lovely.


----------



## Brit

Thanks for clearing that up Smitty. LOL.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

^ Beautiful, Andy! Congrats!!!!


----------



## donwilwol

Nice one Andy. Are you shooting for a complete set of W. Tyzack, Sons & Turner saws?


----------



## Brit

Actually Don, I was just thinking that I had all of the saws that I need now. Well almost. If I saw a nice little 9" dovetail saw that appealed to me, I'd probably snap it up, but apart from that I think I'm done. Do you believe me?


----------



## donwilwol

The question is "do you believe you"?


----------



## Brit

Well put it this way. I think I'm at the stage where if I want to buy another saw, I have to sell a saw to justify it.


----------



## racerglen

Nice Andy ! And memories with the crosscuts ! Used to take in the loggers competitions here, axe throwing as well.
I had to look, and yup, tucked away in my book shelf, no dates on it but an old Lee Valley reprint of a "Crosscut Saw Manual " written by a Warren Miller and originaly published by the Forest Service U.S. Department of Agriculture.
It's a paperback, magazine size, some history of the type of saw, how to keep them sharp, always store hanging straight up and down etc..
Guess I musn't have read it too much the only one I've got hangs accross the shop wall. ;-)
Tried to find it in their (L.V.) lists to no avail.


----------



## Mosquito

Andy that saw looks gorgeous. I love that tote.


----------



## bandit571

Random shot of my Hybrid saw









Just trimming a slab of old Oak….


----------



## WhoMe

Ok, gotta question for those of you who cut dovetails. I am getting ready to re-sharpen my tenon saw and as of now, do not know how it is sharpened Or remember the TPI. BUT, I am planning on using it mainly for cutting dovetails. I have another small saw that I already have with a crosscut profile so that is essentially covered fot tenons, mitre cuts and other cross grain stuff.

Since Dovetails are essentially ripping down the grain, I was going to sharpen the saw as a rip profile.

Is this the correct way of thinking and how will a saw be sharpened for dovetail work? I would think that a crosscut profile would not cut dovetails as well.

If not, please let me know. And explain why.

Thanks

P.S. I will eventually get around to looking at Andy's saw blog and see what he has done to some of his saws.


----------



## Brit

WhoMe - The answer is, it depends. Some people prefer their dovetail saws filed in a hybrid fashion so they can rip and crosscut. In this way they can make all of the required dovetail cuts with one saw. A hybrid-filed saw will also be easier to start but will cut less aggressively. Other people prefer to have their dovetail saw filed rip and use a different saw for the crosscut shoulder cuts.

A dovetail saw should be from 8-10" in length, 15-20 teeth per inch with a .015" to .020" thick plate. My preference is for a 9" inch saw, 18 tpi, filed rip with 0 degrees of rake (so the front of the tooth is vertical) and 0 degrees of fleam (filed at 90 degrees to the plate).

You will need either a 4 inch double-extra-slim tapered saw file or a 7" three square needle file to file teeth this small. Also, if you're anything like me, you'll also need a magnifying glass so you can see the flippin' things. 

Good luck.

How long is the saw plate of your tenon saw?
You can measure the PPI (point per inch) of your saw by counting how many points (including the start and end points) fall within 1". The number of TPI is always one less than the PPI.
A photo of the saw would also help.


----------



## WhoMe

Andy,
Based on your basic parameters, my saw only meets the length criteria. 
The saw is a old Jackson saw. It looks like a old D4 or D5 backsaw. THe closest I could find on the Disston Institute site was the second photo from the top of this page except mine is longer with a more tapered blade as seen in my attached photo. 
Disston backsaw page

Blade is 10" long with a tooth count of 13 TPI. with a point at the starting inch marker and a point at the finishing inch marker. 
Blade thickness is .025 with a width at the teeth of .030









So, thickness is too much, tooth count is not quite high enough but the blade is the correct length. BUT, I figure if I cut farther on the waste side and be careful, it should work. 
As for a file, I have either a 5" or 6" xslim and I seem to be able to clean up the cutting side of the tooth without hitting the backside of the other tooth in the gullet.

And YES, I have a feeling I will need a magnifying glass to see things better as my eyes are not what they used to be either. I loved that comment of yours.

I have another cheap Japanese saw but it is only longer with a taller blade. Thickness and tooth count are about the same.

Eventually, I will get a dedicated dovetail saw but for now, this one will have to do. 
Any other words of advice besides visiting your blog on restorations and sharpening?


----------



## Brit

Only that I'm preparing a video to teach saw sharpening to beginners. I think it will be somewhere between 60 -90 minutes long. It will be a few weeks yet though as the next two weeks are going to be manic for me at work. I hope to start recording after that.

If you haven't done so already, have a read of this article from Vintagesaws.com.


----------



## chrisstef

WhoMe - i like that saw a lot. I think im off the handplanes and most chisesl for a while … on to saws!

Andy - Ohh great now ive got to try and explain to my wife why im watching an hour long video with some English chap talking about phlem, rakes, and pee pee eyes. What the hell is a pee pee eye? Nevermind. Cant wait for the vid Andy. Im hoping to catch a little side cash this week so i can tool up for the big release party.


----------



## bandit571

I might one day look into the "proper saw" to do a joint like this









For now, though, just a Disston coping saw. and a chisel.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Anybody played around with one of these?










Blade needs help, but overall condition is great. I'm going to try stopped dados with it…


----------



## donwilwol

Smitty, can't wait for that blog. Making one of these (or finding one) has been on my list for a while.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Don, I will send you a tracing of it!


----------



## Airframer

Hmm.. I have a cheap backsaw I now have a hankering to hack up and make me one of those! Might even make the blade height adjustable.. now I'm doing this. Thanks Smitty.. I needed another project on my to do list… said no one ever.


----------



## Mosquito

I wanted to try one of those out for sliding dovetails. Nice score Smitty


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Not blog material yet, but couldn't resist a trial… Let me say, 'there's a trick to it.' And I haven't figured it out yet. Not rocket science, there has to be an optimal method, and I'll improve…


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

And this might help…

A lot of info here as well. (put 'stair saw' in body search)


----------



## WhoMe

Nah, Smitty, I tried the apple computer but hated it…. So I don't drink the apple cool aid any more…..
OH, you mean the stair saw… Nope, not that either…. 

Andy, Thanks for the link for Vintage Saws. VERY interesting and informative. I printed out the beginning saw filing article to read later and put in the garage for when I start that saw. Still need to build the saw vise from the past links you sent me though. I really like yours BTW.

Chris, yea, that saw is pretty cool. another inherited tool from the father-in-law. I cleaned it up, refinished the handle and it is now ready for sharpening. I only have a couple of larger saws that are in line after the two panel/tenon saws. An Old Disstons, a Atkins Perfection and a Symonds that I need to clean up and or sharpen as necessary. All inherited from the grandfather-in-law. Then I have my 4 planes to restore then…... Good thing I can't to buy any tools for a while….


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

I asked for that because a keyboard is in the background? Geez…


----------



## bandit571

Working Chamber…









Two of them old saws were used to make a few of these









My three backsaws are duller than a butter knife, so…Mr. Atkins, and Mr. Steigo-Disston got the work load.









As I had four such joints to do….


----------



## WhoMe

Smitty, don't feel bad, I do that to anyone who likes apple products. It is just fun for me..
Besides, I won't hold that against you. Too much other good stuff about you…

Dang bandit, If you ever organize your shop, I'm not sure anyone will recognize it. Maybe not even you…..


----------



## bandit571

IF it was organized, I couldn't find what tool I wanted to use. Everything is out where I can see it, and …..FIND it.


----------



## WhoMe

I like your thinking….. Makes a lot of sense to me. 
In my case, if I did that, i would be running over things when I went to put the car in the garage. That is a bit rough on tools that way….


----------



## Brit

Smitty said…"Let me say, 'there's a trick to it.'"










*OH….ME SIR, PICK ME SIR, I KNOW, ME SIR, PLEASE SIR!*

By the way sir, we've got one of those at home and they don't half eat a lot.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Andy! You've got the dot! Share your wisdom re: the Stair Saw!


----------



## bandit571

Of the back saws I have, EVERY one will start a cut just fine. As soon as the teeth get buried into the wood….BIND! Maybe a lack of set? One is even an old Stanley Miter Box saw. Bury the teeth, and it will be bound up. I went with the panel saws, instead. One has a nasty habit of the toe will shake and shimmy during the cut. No binding, but is does a lot of toe wiggling. I think it is a Atkins panel saw, about 20" or so long. I'd have to look up the ppi on it, though. Makes a very fine sawdust in the old oak…..


----------



## Brit

Bandit - Your binding issue is almost certainly due to lack of set, but don't overset it. For cutting dry hardwood, your set should be around 25% of the thickness of the saw plate. If you are sawing wet wood, you will need more set.

The juddering or 'toe wiggling' as you put it is most likely due to an uneven toothline. That is to say, if you hold the saw with the teeth facing up and site down it, you will probably notice that it undulates slightly. Another way of telling is to stand the saw teeth down on a flat surface and see if you can slide a thin piece of paper or a feeler gauge under any of the teeth. The solution is to lightly joint the teeth with the file parallel to the saw plate until the file just contacts the top of all the teeth. Then shape each tooth so that the flats on the top of the teeth just disappear. Don't go too far or you will just make it uneven again. Once each tooth is properly shaped, set the teeth and sharpen the saw.


----------



## bandit571

The three "main" saws I have been a-using lately









and the not-so-great back saws









If it didn't cost so bleeding much, I'd send the backsaws across the pond….









hoping they would fall off the boat, and sink….


----------



## WhoMe

" I think im off the handplanes and most chisesl for a while … on to saws!" 
Oh..No…. Chris, you really got it bad. A rotating addiction.. whats next? Power tools??? Not sure there is much 
help for you now….

Well, Andy, I have gone down the path of no return. 
I printed the Beginners primer from the Vintage handsaw link you provided. read through it twice to make sure I understood everything. 
Then I pulled the handle off the backsaw and did the initial jointing. Well the good news is I know what needs to be done. The bad news is that I know what needs to be done. 
1. both the ends of the saw now have much less in the way of tooth profile than the center of the blade. Which leads me to believe that whoever last sharpened it did more work in the center do to use than the full length of the blade. so I had a arc of teeth. I remembered from the article that when jointing, don't go so far down to lose the tooth spacing. Then cut the tooth profile. Then, if needed, repeat the process. 
2. Of the teeth that don't look like pyramid bases at the ends, I have the big tooth/little tooth profile in the center.

So, it looks like I will end up doing maybe 2 rounds of jointing and cutting the tooth profiles. 
My question is, should I do a initial set on the teeth before doing the second round of jointing/tooth profile? I am thinking I probably should. I am not sure that after the second round of jointing/profile cutting, I will have enough tooth set left to determine which way they go. I don't want to start setting teeth the opposite way they were originally done and risk breaking any. 
Opinions??
Also, is it worth it to set the freshly jointed blade on a straight edge to make sure the initial profile is flat. I know the article did point out that a saw cuts better when all the tooth points are level.

Oh, what fun this is going to be. I was hoping that this would be "minor surgery" on this saw and I would break myself in on my cheap panel saw. Oh well, gotta learn sometime. I will just take it slow and easy.


----------



## Brit

*WhoMe* - No don't apply set until you have finished shaping the teeth. If you have removed all of the existing set during jointing and shaping, then it doesn't matter if the set goes in a different direction to how it was originally. That only matters if there is still existing set on the teeth and you bend them completely in the wrong direction. I think it is a really good idea to set the saw teeth down on a known flat surface and see if you can get a feeler gauge under any of the teeth. Don't beat yourself up if you can though, it took me a few saws before I felt I could keep the toothline straight.

SLOW and EASY. Yep, that's the way to go.


----------



## donwilwol

Wasn't it Tina Turner that said we never do ANYTHING SLOW AND EASY?


----------



## WhoMe

Andy, thanks for that. I am guessing that by the time I am done and like you said, I probably won't have any set left. If I do. I will start from where it is apparent and go out from there.

Don, not sure if that was her or not but if it was, she should know as I am sure she is an expert at being ridden fast, hard and put away wet…


----------



## pastahill

This is my first saw restauration. Nothing special or old . I think its from the 60`s, because my mother said it´s from my uncle, which learned cabinet making here in germany at the late 50´s and early 60´s. The blade was very rusty and you can see a few pittings left over. The beech handle was very dirty and full of paintsplatters. It was laying around in the garage from my father and was never used the last 30 years. Old Disston saws are very rar here in Germany and difficult to find. The saw is not sharpened jet, because i´m still waiting for my files. Maybe anybody of you can age this saw.


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## donwilwol

Nice restore on that Disston. It looks like you match the 1947-53 time frame, http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/medv2.html


----------



## WhoMe

Aww, now you guys have gone and done it….
I started making a saw vise similar to Britt's. But probably a little cheaper being made out of scrap plywood and pine.

I also started looking closely at all my saws. I am starting to do some research on them and so far, it has been interesting. Ill have to post pics and data later. I know I have posted shots on this thread before but with no data. 
Does anyone have any good links to Simonds saws or the Atkins Perfections like the Disston institute? All I could find was tidbits here and there.

THanks


----------



## Mosquito

Sorry WhoMe, I'm of no real help there…

-

Does anyone have any interest in these? I've had them for a while, but I don't think I'm going to get around to using them. I think I'm going to stick with panel saws for the time being. Trying to clean house to help with… another expense.

All Distons, 26" tooth line, all with partial etches faint, but visible. No broken totes, but 2/3 have cracks in them. 

















Top down:


----------



## pastahill

Nice saws, but the shiping to Germany would be to expensive.


----------



## pastahill

The poastman just rings and brought e few packages and in one where these 2 sweet saws . Look at the ruler. The blade of the smaller one is just 20 cm (7 3/4 of an inch) short. The handle is so small that just 2 fingers fit in. (Maybe for an old woodworker wich had just 3 fingers left), but they are rivited with brass rods and washers and have a nice shape. Also, they have a nib. (Yeah!!!!!) I think i restore them, and gave them to my small 4 year old one, who visit me always in my shop.


----------



## terryR

PastaHill, those are great looking saws! Can't wait to see 'em cleaned. Your 4 year old is lucky, lucky!

Mos, either of those Disstons filed cross? PM coming your way…


----------



## WhoMe

Well, I tried saw sharpening for the first time today. Looks like I need a LOT more practice. I swear, by the time I get things looking good there will be no saw blade left…. Even going slow, it is much harder than it seemed.

I have a feeling that I need to watch some You Tube videos on technique. I got my 6"XXslim file, made a wooden handle with the reference angle, used some beeswax on the file for lubrication and started with 2 file cuts with light to medium pressure one side. Then flipped the saw, changed my file angle and did the same to the other side. 
Got a lot of big tooth/little tooth profile. 
Then tried doing a single file cut per side. Then used the file to flatten the tooth tops and tried a couple other methods with 1-2 cuts per tooth and still came out uneven. The one thing I don't have to worry about is which way to set the teeth. I think I have filed most of the set out of the teeth by now. So doing the setting of the teeth will be interesting too. I do kno that less is better than too much. This will practice on a junk saw for sure…

So, are there any technique hints out there or links to a couple of videos to watch? At this point, I think I am going to see if I can find a junk saw to practice on… My Jackson has too much personal value to me. So I am going to stop until I have a few more sharpening miles under my belt.

One thing I did fine that helped was to mark every other tooth with a 1/4" mark with a sharpie. The did the other side with the alternating teeth. That made it MUCH easier to track every other tooth for filing on each side of the blade instead of counting gullets.


----------



## donwilwol

Mike, have you been through Saw Talk?


----------



## WhoMe

Don, 
I had bookmarked that a while ago and only looked over it briefly thinking that "I would get back to it later" when I needed it. 
In all my recent saw activity, I completely forgot about that. I guess I should read through that now.

Thanks for the reminder.


----------



## Brit

Mike - It is a good idea to practice on an old saw that you don't mind messing up. I will be purposely filing the teeth on one of the saws in my upcoming video so that I get the big tooth/little tooth problem. I'll explain why it happened and how to rectify it. My apologies that the video is taking a long time, but my work schedule is manic at present. I intend to pack as much information into it as possible and unfortunately that means it isn't quick to do. I want to try and do a thorough job though, so I'm not going to rush it.


----------



## WhoMe

Andy, thanks for that bit of advice. 
Unfortunately, It is a little late and I should have known better. DUH!!!! STUPID ME!!!! And I even mentioned it in one of my earlier posts about sharpening. 
I got so excited to try this that I lost my sense of reason. Lessons learned. Good thing I didn't spend a huge amount of time attempting the sharpening. 
I guess one thing is good. There is basically no set left on the teeth so I can start over there. There was not much to begin with so no real loss. 
I do have several saws to play with. Unfortunately, none with the high tooth count of that Jackson. BUT, I am sure the same principles apply, just on a finer scale. 
The good news is that my saw vise works fine clamping the saws. Just needs a different way to clamp it to my table saw to work on. I can put it in my workmate but I don't have a comfortable chair/stool to sit on while doing this. As it was, I was standing when trying to sharpen that saw. Which I realize now was one of my mistakes. My eye level was way too high to see how I was doing well. 
So multiple lessons learned on my first foray into sharpening.

As for the video Andy, no problems there. I have a lot of reading to do on your Saw Blog anyway so I will not be doing the sharpening attempt really soon. I will be looking forward to it though.


----------



## carguy460

Hate to hijack the great sharpening talk going on, but I just can't help myself…you may recall a few weeks back that I finally decided on a backsaw…a rip carcasse from LN to be exact. I attended the Lie Nielsen event in KC, and dropped the hammer on my first brand new tool ever! It has been 11 days since that event, and sure enough, I got a package today!










I was so excited I could hardly contain myself…I opened it to find this beauty inside:










I grabbed a pine scrap and went to town…poor form and all from me, this saw refuses to cut anything but a straight line…I'm in love!










I plan to sleep with this saw tonight…hope the pregnant wife doesn't mind…


----------



## AnthonyReed

That is awesome Jason. Congratulations man! She is a beauty.


----------



## donwilwol

well, if your going to interrupt a good sharpening conversation, you might as well do it in style. And that you did!! Saawwweeettnneeesss.


----------



## CL810

Jason, when I was looking at your cuts I thought, "man I would sleep with that saw if it were mine." Sure enough, you already planned to! Put the tooth guard on!


----------



## lysdexic

I would *never* sleep with a saw or any other sharp edge tool with my wife in the same bed, lest she use it upon me or mine.

Oh, dont worry. Your wife probably loves you more than mine does me.

Just sayin'


----------



## Deycart

Maybe he should forgo the tooth guard on the tonight. He might get a dovetail saw out of it.


----------



## theoldfart

Sitting in the ER waiting for a cat scan and wondering if surgeons look at their tools the same way! Just wondering
Kevin


----------



## lysdexic

Kevin,

Interesting comment. I give no love to my surgical instruments. First of all they are not mine. I didn't select them, buy them, nor maintain them. I'll never own them or pass them on to my kids. It is a purely professional relationship. I get a different set every day. A scrub tech hands them to me and I hand them back. No love. The only emotion that my surgical instruments evoke is anger when they don't work.

I imagine it is the same for professional cabinet makers, or factory workers for that matter, who work with the companies tools.

I love my woodworking tools. Think about them all the time. Sometimes while using my surgical tools.

Edit: I hope your CT scan goes well.


----------



## chrisstef

Congrats Jason, she is a beauty without a doubt. That glow aint comin from your pregnant wife either, there's actually a halo around that saw.


----------



## theoldfart

Dr. Lysdexic, 
Kind of figured that. I treasure my tools. CT went well. Diverticulitis.
Kevin


----------



## carguy460

Thanks all! That saw is truly a thing of beauty, and those first cuts…wow! I have nothing to compare this saw to since everything else I own is vintage panel/hand saws and a miter saw, but I can definitely say that the feel of a properly sharpened saw is like nothing else.

I tried to sneak the saw into the bedroom, but she wasn't having any of it…so I put the saw to bed on the dresser, where it was close at hand for early morning fondling.

Deycart - huge LOL!


----------



## chrisstef

where it was close at hand for early morning fondling.

I bet you like the angle its hung at huh Jason.


----------



## carguy460

Oh yeah, stef…perfect hang angle…and the soft, supple curves of that seductive curly maple handle just beg to be caressed. When I get home, I'm heading to the shop, putting a Barry Manilow record on, and getting some tail…dovetail, that is.

I have to keep reminding myself that its just a saw…but to me, it's so much more…


----------



## chrisstef

Keep the Barry Manilow and go straight to Barry White … straight pimp.


----------



## Brit

Congrats Jason, she's a beauty and you're right a sharp saw is a delight.


----------



## racerglen

Funny, I was thinking of Barry White as well Stef..
Evil minds ..


----------



## carguy460

Good choice…I was thinking "Copacabana"...but Barry White works too


----------



## chrisstef

Barry White is one smooooth customer. From the sweet hair to the rhinestones on his jacket. That video had me groovin. Jason "I cant get enough of your saw baaby"

Glen - you dont wanna be hanging around upstairs in my brain …. theres short wires … very dangerous place to be. But maybe you could bring the rest of the french fries and ill finally have a full happy meal. Ive been short for some time now.


----------



## terryR

Double post…

A quick question on saw files if I may…

I finally found and purchased 2 boxes of files from Grobet USA…got them in the mail…opened the boxes and the files say 'Made in India'. I thought Grobet files were Swedish or French? Did I get tricked on the purchase? Or do I need to re-read ALL of Andy's blogs?


----------



## racerglen

Sheesh..I thought they were SWISS


> ?
> INDIA


??

Stef, it's Fried day…


----------



## terryR

bummer…









Oh well, I don't have to worry about ruining these files I suppose…but I'd sure like to know after I file a saw poorly if it was my error or the files???


----------



## ksSlim

Looks like Grobet and Gorbet are very similar in spelling.


----------



## AnthonyReed

Sneaky bastards!


----------



## CL810

Terry - It'll be the files' fault!


----------



## terryR

Where's Andy?

Hey Andy, where did I go wrong on that file purchase? Is Grobet USA a different company than Grobet? I finally received a back order from Veritas…set of 7 Grobet files in a canvas pouch. Each of the files from Veritas is marked with an image of a flint rifle, and the text 'F.L.Grobet, 2nd CUT'.

The files from Grobet USA are only marked 'Grobet USA' with the same G logo as on their box front. And to my fingernail, the edges feel dull compared to the files from Veritas…

I rekon I just answered my own question…must be two related, but different companies! Lucky for the rest of you I discovered the difference, huh? 

...Fool me once, shame on you…Fool me twice, NOT a chance!

Vallorbe saw files from now on…


----------



## Brit

Terry - I have wondered about Grobet files myself for many months. I always thought they were a Swiss company. I thought there were files available today from basically four companies: Grobet, Vallorbe, Bahco and Nicholson.

I have tried a new old stock double-ended Nicholson and it was ok. I haven't tried any of their files manufactured today, but enough people who I respect have said they are crap, that I'm not going to bother with them. I have used quite a few Bahco files (made in Portugal) and they are great when you get a good one, but I've had 3 out of 20 files where the edges just crumbled away as soon as I started filing.

The next on my list to try were going to be Vallorbe. There are two tool companies in the UK that sell Vallorbe saw files and I have found nobody who says they sell Grobet files. However, I think I'm right in saying that Vallorbe files are made by Grobet anyhow. I'm not sure why they are sold under two different names or what the difference is between them, if any. I wish companies would just be more transparent about this kind of thing rather than let customers go through the pain of making a purchase only to be disappointed.

Save the files you got from Veritas for your final sharpening strokes and use the others for filing in new teeth and shaping existing teeth.


----------



## terryR

Thanks for you input, Andy! Now, I can see that it was ME that made the error, but it was an easy one to make. 

Yeah, I suppose major companies make $$$ by mis-advertizing items just a little. I could probably start selling my own files under the name USA Grobett. LOL…

If Vallorbe are also made by Grobet, I may wait a while and let someone else try them out first…


----------



## carguy460

Dovetails, day 1…fail. Baseline not deep enough, boards bottom out before the tails are flush. Needs more paring as its a pretty tight fit…ironic that the fit can be too tight, yet there are gaps everywhere…hmmm










The new saw is still awesome! I'm learning that I might as well just cut to the line, paring blows and the saw cuts straight, so why not?


----------



## OnlyJustME

They didnt fail, Jason. They just need clean up with a smoothing plane on the faces. Looks pretty good to me.


----------



## Brit

.


----------



## carguy460

Thanks OJM…I'm sure I could clean it up and it would be ok. I do know that I need to work on layout. I do know that I need to sharpen my chisels a bit more. I do know that my sawing skills surprised me, not that they were great, but that it really wasn't that difficult to stay square and straight.

I also do know that Andy said "."...I'm not sure what that means, but I'm sure its not good.

EDIT: Yes, I used that razor knife in the pic to strike my lines…and yes, I know thats part of my problem! Knowing is half the battle, they say…


----------



## Brit

Terry and anyone else interested in the intriguing web of Grobet saw file manufacture. I donned my deerstalker and did some detective work. Here's a summary of what I was able to find out.

Vallorbe files are made in Switzerland (nowehere else), but who exactly are Vallorbe? To answer that question we need a bit of a history lesson. In Vallorbe Switzerland, they have a long tradition of precision file manufacture dating back to the 19th century. A number of companies existed, all making files. In 1899, three of these manufacturers (Borloz & Noguet-Borloz, Grobet SA and Glardon & Co), decided to combine their activities and to merge into one sole company called *Les Usines Métallurgiques de Vallorbe SA* which roughly translates to Metalurgical Factories Vallorbe. Here are the three brands of the founding companies.










Nowadays the following brand names are used by Vallorbe.










The company has around 320 employees and their tools are sold throughout the world in more than 85 countries, through a distribution network of more than 300 agents and distributors.

So where does Grobet USA fit into all this. They say that they "...maintain state of the art production facilities in the US and Switzerland as well as a global network of suppliers to provide an offering of more than 18,000 products…"

Grobet USA sell American Pattern Files (the ones Terry bought) which come in a box like Terry posted earlier which were made in India.










However they also sell the S-File range which are American Pattern Files made in Switzerland by Vallorbe under the trademark of F. L. Grobet. The box for those files looks like this:










The S-Files show the rifle/pistol (whatever it is) logo and the words F. L. Grobet. These are the files that came in Terry's saw file set from Veritas.










The S-File range comes in three levels of coarseness: Bastard, 2nd Cut and Smooth Cut. There are also four styles of cut in the range: Single Cut, Double Cut, Rasp Cut and Multifile Cut. Saw files are always Single Cut.

I am therefore deducing that when the companies in the UK say that their saw files are made by Vallorbe, they are also the S-Files from Switzerland. The confusion around Grobet files has been bugging me for ages and I hope the above information helps shed some light on the difference and will prevent others from making the understandable mistake Terry made.

If you are buying Grobet saw files, the S-Files are the ones you want.


----------



## Brit

Jason - My '.' post earlier today wasn't directed at your dovetails (which look terrific to me). I had started writing the material I have just posted about Grobet saw files and I accidentally hit the 'Post this reply' button before I was finished. Since you can't retract it once you've posted it, I replaced it with a '.'


----------



## donwilwol

I finally got my LV order, but to many planes to work on right now.


----------



## Brit

My LV order was dispatched on Tuesday. It should be with me in 2-4 weeks. Can't wait to play with it and the way I'm going, it will make an appearance in the video after all. LOL.


----------



## terryR

Andy, thanks for the detective work! You da man!!! I had a funny feeling about buying saw files from an Amazon link…will stick with Veritas as a vendor WHEN they have the goods in stock.

Jason, those are your FIRST dovetails? No way! You've been practicing. 

Hey Don, you changed your avatar? Shop built infill?


----------



## OnlyJustME

Jolly good show Sherlock Andy. lol


----------



## donwilwol

I'm loving me some infill. It works soooo sweet. I thought I knew what a plane could do.


----------



## terryR

deleted.


----------



## carguy460

Andy - your detective skills are astounding, and your ability to decipher your findings into an informative post are absolutely amazing. Dare I say I learn more history here than I ever did in a classroom!

Yes, those were my first DT's. I was scared they would be too loose, so I erred on the tight side…too tight, really. This evening if I get a chance I'm trying again, or maybe I'll just dismantle the first set and tune it up a little. I am quickly learning that proper workholding is worth its weight in gold…I need a vise something awful!

Thanks again everyone for the encouragement!


----------



## Johnnyblot

Lysdexic wrote:-
'Interesting comment. I give no love to my surgical instruments.'

Recently I saw a TV programme that highlighted the skill of the ships surgeons in the Royal Navy during the battle of Trafalgar. 
It showed a set of tools they would have actually used. 
I must say that they were incredibly well made. The saw for amputating limbs was especially good. 
I wouldn't mind one myself as a 'super doventail saw'. Lol
Cheers

John.


----------



## Brit

Then you'd love the Hunterian Museum at the Royal College of Surgeons in Lincolns Inn Fields in London John. Specimen jars by the hundreds containing things you never knew existed, surgeon's tool kits galore and exhibits showing surgery through the ages. The medical students do little workshops and when I was there, I learnt to suture some big gashes in a very life-like rubber arm and all without an anesthetic. Well you just never know when these things might come in useful.


----------



## racerglen

Andy, rubber shouldn't need anasthetic..should it ?
Oh wait, YOU didn't need….
I've seen a lot of pictures of those "tools" some are darned scarey when you think about what they were 
intended for ! But yes, quality tools..
Scott should show his some respect eh..

;-)


----------



## Brit

I could have done with some anesthetic Glen. There was one set of tools containing a lovely little saw that I think it said belonged to a surgeon in the army. He held the record for the fastest amputation of an arm. Cut the flesh either side of the bone in an arc, pull back the flesh saw through the bone, press the two bits of flesh together and stitch it up. Apply bandage. Took him all of 5 minutes, then on to the next victim.


----------



## racerglen

Oye…
Without video evidence I HOPE ???


----------



## Johnnyblot

Andy -lol
Those Army & Navy surgeons were truly skilled. 
Can you imagine a time when there were no effective anaesthetics?

I wonder how quickly they could knock out dovetails?

Cheers. 
John


----------



## chrisstef

Strong slueth work Andy. S-Files …. embedded in the brain. Shall not forget.

Jason - heckofa nice job on those tails for your first go around. Keep at it. I need to get back in to the DT routine and get back to practicing. Ive got a box all made up that still needs a bottom … and lots of glue and sawdust.


----------



## starringemma

3 Hand saw set tools $13.49

http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-Antique-Disston-E-C-Atkins-Morrills-Saw-Set-Tools-/230945463251?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35c56c1bd3


----------



## AnthonyReed

Nice work Jason.

Thank you so very much Andy!


----------



## Deycart

Bought this saw the other day and finally got around to finishing it. 8 rake 14 ppi. It cuts pretty aggressively and tracks well. Sorry for no before photos. The handle was a ugly unstained beech. I think it looks much better.





































Anyone know anything about the maker?


----------



## Brit

Nice job Deycart. Very impressive.


----------



## donwilwol

I've never heard of Jefferson but its a nice looking little saw.


----------



## need2boat

Just following up on the file talk. I've used both Grobet USA and higher end S-Files. TFWW sell the the higher end s-files and I buy the Grobet USA files locally. The difference in price can be quite a bit and I find all and all I've had mixed results with both. Price or location does not make for a good file. Joel had 4 boxes last year of 4" extra slim that sucked ass. I was out of the regular Grobet. Paid the extra price and ended up burning thru 2 files on a single 10" saw.

The last batch of Grobet USA files I got were fine but I've had some that were not properly hardened and find that's the issue with any of the makers.

Joe


----------



## dbray45

A bit of sad news - something I missed.

Tom Law, known for his handsaw sharpening in these parts and did a video on sharpening saws a while back (availbale on Amazon), passed away a few months ago. He had not been well for some time.

He was one of the nicest people you could ever meet and a tremendous wealth of information. His saw collection was tremendous.


----------



## OnlyJustME

So sorry to hear that. I hate it when i miss out on meeting people like him.


----------



## Brit

Good to know Joe. Thanks for your insight. I've had the same experience with the Bahco files.


----------



## racerglen

And now..for something different..









English, as in Sheffield, saw, at some time used as a meat saw as the blade it came with had tallow around the holding pins. about 21 inches from tip to tail, the only mark other than Sheffield is a 5 point star with a "K" inside it. Such saws were also used around here as pruning tools. A friend made me a new blade from bandsaw stock.









Then there's this one..









No makers marks at all, the medalion I added to fill the hole that was there. Interesting cam lock tensioner rather that the British saw's brass tensioning wheel.









The British one has a gloss varathane finish on the wood, as found, but t'other was dried out something awful so just finished some polish and BLO..








It also has a custom bandsaw blade, mostly wall art..
;-)


----------



## CL810

Interesting Glen. How stable are the blades?


----------



## racerglen

Stable ?
I guess you mean do they wobble about ?
Nope, they're like big hacksaws, get the tension right and there's no issue, the British one, just keep turning the brass wheel till it's tight , I use the twang method for initial adjustment  pluck the blade with a finger, twang and it's there..the cam lever one is "auto-set" that lever snugs it right up.


----------



## DaddyZ

Glen^

Nice looking saws !!

Would love to find a few out in the wild…


----------



## racerglen

They used to be spotted frequently here, but not so much any more..
I think the orchardists switched to chainsaws ;-)










Thats the orrginal blade for the British one, a lot more "toothy"


----------



## Johnnyblot

Speaking of 'Butchers' here are some old surgeon's saws :-/










Cheers
John


----------



## Johnnyblot

Crikey;-

It looks like *Andy *has found himself a fancy Surgeon's Saw. *OMG*



















Be afraid! lol

Cheers
John


----------



## Brit




----------



## ShaneA

The gentleman's guide. LOL


----------



## donwilwol

Cut off an arm, have a Brandy. Just another day at the office!


----------



## chrisstef

Do you guys see all the mustaches in that gentlemans guide?!! I count 11. Love me a good mustache.


----------



## OnlyJustME

Love the "have a brandy" after. How many arms can he amputate before he's too drunk? lol


----------



## DonBroussard

I thought the patient got all liquored up before the surgeon started up with the procedure. Now I find out that the surgeon AND the patient had a brandy AFTER it was over! Learn something new every day . . .


----------



## AnthonyReed

That is great. I need one for my wall.


----------



## WhoMe

OMG, that is just hilarious. The gentleman's guide. 
Although, it makes me wonder what the non-gentleman's guide looks like. And for that matter, I bet the zombie's guide has less steps and they probably celebrate with fresh brains.

I remember pages back where someone had posted some shots of a stair saw. 
There is one on ebay if anyone is looking for one. It has a little more than 2 1/2 days left. It expires on 3/23 after 10PM.

Stair saw

ALso saw a couple mitre boxes too
Millers Falls 73A #2 with saw
Expires 3/23 after 11PM PST

Stanley 150 no saw
Expires 3/24 after 5PM PST


----------



## lysdexic

Andy -

Do you happen to have a link for a high resolution image of that poster?

edit: I found one.


----------



## chrisstef

Scotty's got new office decorations ^ .... very fitting.


----------



## DonBroussard

I found this online. Not sure of the resolution, though.


----------



## donwilwol

I wouldn't trust a surgeon without a bottle of brandy in his office!!


----------



## AnthonyReed

How high was that resolution you found Scott?


----------



## shampeon

I'm all for vintage tools, but I think insisting on vintage surgery is a little much.


----------



## Brit

*Scot* - This is the clearest image I've found. It isn't very big, but it is clear when viewed at 100%.


----------



## BrandonW

Oh brother. My wife already gives me grief for owning a "carcass saw."


----------



## donwilwol

did you guys see this? http://lumberjocks.com/rodman40/blog/29614


----------



## bandit571

Just because I was tired of using a panel saw in my miter box









due to the fact that these two were too dull to use









And a lack of the "proper" files to sharpen teeth I can't see anyway. Picked up a blade at Menards for $6 or so









Used the old cheap Disston/HK Porter blade as a pattern. Ground away what didn't fit, drillled three holes, and now









Ugly as it is, it IS sharp! Just to use in that yellow plastic miter box.


----------



## bandit571

Out on a rust hunt today, found a little $3.21 saw.









all kinds of pointy things going on.









Medallion: "Phoenix" "Patented" (Eagle with some letters on either side) Warranted.

THree other brass bolts. Looks to be a 7-8 pointer. tip is rounded. Top of the plate slopes down before entering the tote.









New saw to me….(yes I will clean the metal up. Someone was cutting plaster with it!)


----------



## bandit571

Saw has been cleaned up, still no etch to be found









Handle end looks like it has been redrilled, too









Brass is nice and shiny, though









Just a $3.21 handsaw.

ps: i did get all the plaster out of the teeth. Wall board saw???


----------



## RGtools

Using.


----------



## carguy460

Upstaged by the master…nice work on the tool chest, RG!

My new LN rip carcass saw is coming in handy…working some stock to final dimension for a small marking gauge…










No skill involved here…the dang thing cuts straight pretty much on its own!


----------



## theoldfart

Ryan,
will you keep the gap between the saw till and the front wall? If so whats going in there?


----------



## BrandonW

Very impressive work with those nice, straight cuts, Ryan.

Here's an interesting saw. I didn't measure it, but it's about 36" long. Dovetail saw made by LN for Roy Underhill. Obviously it was made as a joke, but still a pretty cool saw nonetheless.


----------



## donwilwol

Brandon, we could cut that sucker up and all make a DT saw out of the pieces!!


----------



## RGtools

*Kevin*, I will be keeping that gap. It gives my bow-saws a place to live. They could not be stored in the vertical till pieces like the panel saws due to interference with the sliding tills (and short-grain weaknesses). What you see now is a "dry" fit without any cleating or hardware, I am still trying to work my DT, Carcass, and Coping saw into this till (oh, and the extra blade for my bow-saw).


----------



## theoldfart

*Ryan*, I see the blades now, makes sense. What about saws on the lid. I keep the coping saw in my lowest tray.


----------



## RGtools

I am not a fan of the airspace the saws on the lid take away from the trays, but I do think my framing square might end up there. I have enough room to get the saws I mentioned into similar tills as the panels, it just is going to take some divider work to lay them out so they sit in between the panel saws without upsetting the balance I have achieved so far.

Worse comes to worse, I make room for the joinery saws in one of the tills…or the lid.


----------



## theoldfart

Ryan The air space is an issue, mine are set to allow closing the lid as long as the till is in the back position. Looking forward to your till design.


----------



## RGtools

This took a fair amount of fussing but I am pleased with the overall result.


----------



## lysdexic

Very nice Ryan.


----------



## theoldfart

Looks good and workable, nice job


----------



## AnthonyReed

Good to see you put the new saw to use *Jason*.

*Ryan* - It is looking fantastic. I love to see that the Craftsman DT saw is still up to task and is included in the saw till design. It is always great seeing your work. Thanks for sharing man.


----------



## RGtools

I gave some thought to buying a LN DT saw when I finished the chest…then I realized that the tool that made the box should have it's place of honor inside of it.


----------



## mochoa

Ryan the chest is looking awesome. Making me want one now.

Speaking of LN DT saws. Check out what I just got in the mail yesterday. This thing is so damn sexy!









Havent gotten a chance to make saw dust with it yet.


----------



## theoldfart

Ryan, what type and size bow saws do you use? I'm looking at the Woodjoy's


----------



## AnthonyReed

Yowza! Congrats Mauricio. 

It is beautiful.


----------



## mochoa

Thanks, I think this is now the nicest tool I own. lol. But then my wife reminded me that, no, the bench is. And I was like awwee yeaaahhh. ;-)


----------



## RGtools

The bench is awesome. I am loving seeing it get put to use. Nice saw you have there Mauricio.

*Kevin* I had to look it up, but the Rip saw is 27 1/2"; Unless you are a bean pole like me, that is quite a bit of throw for most people. The Tenon Saw is 23 1/2", which is a bit more suitable for most people and most tasks at the bench (especially if your bench is against a wall). For the price, I find this saw pretty hard to beat (you just have to learn how to use the thing, since it's more finicky than a backsaw) and you can swap the tenon, and curve cutting blade back and forth. Recently Adria added a clause about not being able to order the blades alone, as I have…someone needs to look into that oddity.

I got mine here.


----------



## chrisstef

Nice saw Maur, its sexy but not nearly as sexy as that sweater you're wearing … or is that a cardigan?


----------



## mochoa

I had to dress my wrist up to take a picture with that saw… too fancy. Not as fancy as Ryan's zoot suite though.


----------



## AnthonyReed

True….

Zooting is the top of the mountain.


----------



## mochoa

Can we talk about bandsaws here? I've been working on getting my bandsaw working just right and I need an outlet to talk about it.


----------



## chrisstef

Speak your mind brother Maur … im always down for some good bandsaw info


----------



## OnlyJustME

Mauricio, It has saw in the name so i would suppose so. the thread title does not say Human powered or hand saws. Just says Saws. According to my lawyering it's allowed.

Awesome tool chest Ryan. Some day i'll make one and keep yours in mind. Now where can i get a zoot suit to go with mine?


----------



## mochoa

That's what I thought. There is no "Hand Saw" only specification in the title of this thread.

Here you go:

A couple of years back Michael Fortune did a couple of videos on FWW about BS tune-up which were awesome. Check them out if you are a subscriber. 
http://www.finewoodworking.com/tool-guide/video/how-to-set-up-a-bandsaw.aspx

I just revisited his videos and I have to say that when they are applied correctly you get very straight cuts. And he does it a cheap old underpowered BS.

I just got some very nice straight cuts in 8/4 red oak last night.

I'm using a wood slicer blade but I just ordered an inexpensive ½" 3tpi Skip tooth blade which I can't wait to try out. Fortune explains that think it is the most efficient tooth geometry for saw dust removal which is a big cause of drift.

However there are a couple of things I changed based on a demonstration I saw from the Carters people at the WW show.

-The cigarette paper trick for me was difficult to get right, at least with the bearing guides I have. What I tried seems to work and is easier IMHO. I move the bearing against to where it spins, then I move it away little by little until it just stops turning. Same on the other side. That seems to work. Also it was much faster and required less fiddling which encourages me to do it every time I adjust the height of the guide if necessary.

-The other thing I did was, instead of centering the blade. I centered the deepest part of the gullet on the center of the wheel. The Carters guy claims that this keeps the teeth facing straight since the crown of the blade could cause the teeth to be curved to the side. I tried it and it works so I'm going to leave it there for now.

I'm debating on upgrading the tires but he ones I have now seem to be working. Also I found this great post on adding a wheel brush using and old toothbrush here: http://lumberjocks.com/projects/19465

I dream of using mastering my BS so I can use my Table Saw less and less.


----------



## RGtools

*OnlyJustME* Austin Reed Suit, Jillian Garret Originals Hat. Yes, she forced me to model, but the pay was good.


----------



## AnthonyReed

^You'll have to get Bhog to show you some of Stef's 'modeling' photos.


----------



## chrisstef

My nude downward dog photo is a thing of utmost class and beauty so ive been told.

Good luck gettin that visual out of your head Tony


----------



## AnthonyReed

^ This why we can't have nice things.


----------



## bandit571

Be like those older woodworkers? Wear a dress shirt and tie, under that Cardigan sweater?

NOT!


----------



## theoldfart

*Ryan*, thanks for the saw info. I'm going to get the turning saw and an extra tenon blade. Will post info on the extra blade when I order.


----------



## RGtools

^ I wonder if my blogging about that hidden discount is what made it disapear. We always destroy the things we love.


----------



## Johnnyblot

Here is an old picture. I think it might be *Don*- back in the day!










Quite 'dapper' don't you think?


----------



## Johnnyblot

*Mauricio*- Band saws, when tuned up and running true are a joy to use.
I believe them to be *100 *times safer to use than a table saw. You can '*hear*' when the band saw is running properly. Best thing is to keep the guides right and you can cope with just about anything?

I only use the table saw when I have *no *choice. I'm not against table saws per se' I just have a very healthy fear of them! I've seen what they are capable of!

Cheers
John.


----------



## lysdexic

Maur,

I am a big fan off the bandsaw. I agree with you above thoughts. I too cannot seem to get the bearings as close as they prescribe. Then again, I think the bearings on the Rikon 10-325 are the worst part of the saw.

I has a recent revelation. I began experiencing alot of drift, bearing contact and degradation in my cuts. I struggled trying to "tune it out." This is using a 1/2" 3 TPI blade from Highland. My research lead me to setting drift angle, fence adjustment etc. Yet, the gurus IE Mike Fortune, FWW articles stated that a dull blade is the primary reason. I ddin't believe it becuase my blade was not that old. Well, a couple weeks ago I broke down and bought another, same blade from Highland and installed it.

OMG. friggin sweetness. That is all it was. Now my saw cuts true and straight.


----------



## CL810

*ScottyB *- Are you still using the original fence on your 10-325? That's what is driving me nuts. Very difficult to set up flush to the table.


----------



## theoldfart

*Ryan* Ordered the turning saw and a tenon blade. Now may have to redo the saw till. Thanks a lot! 
That makes about ten plus hand saws, another problem of mine.


----------



## lysdexic

CL - yes sir. I am using the original fence. I get the feeling it could be better but I don't know any better.


----------



## ShaneA

I have that same Rikon saw…while I think it is nice and great value. I really have very little idea how to use a BS. Mostly use it to resaw. I attribute my less than ideal results to user error. Sometimes I wish we all lived in the same town so I could get some quality monkey see, monkey do time in. Plus see everyone's shop, up close and personal.

I don't use it much. Some day, I may actually learn how.


----------



## mochoa

Yeah the trick is getting the guides right. I thought the blade was dull but I adjusted the guides and that was it.

I have a wood slicer and its working for me but I really want to try the Skip tooth blade that Michael Fortune talks about to see if it's really all that. Plus if it works at $15 vs. $37 for the Wood Slicer. Not that it's a lot of money but I think I would procrastinate a lot less in changing blades at $15.

I just ordered this one from ebay. I've never tried Olson blades but they have really good reviews on Amazon. http://www.ebay.com/itm/230899976143?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2648

I'm not against the table saw either but I have a crappy Ryobi and I need to upgrade but I don't want to, I'd rather spend the money on something else. Also, if I could have one less machine in my shop that would be amazing.

Shane, check out that video, a lot of straight forward tips. I have a grizzly BS which looks way nicer than the saw M. Fortune is getting perfect results with.


----------



## chrisstef

Maur - i just bought a 3 pack of Olsen blades from Amazon, with tat 1/2" installed in my BS right now. Ive only made one cut with it but i slid right through some 5" QS Cherry with no problem at all. Freehand resaw as the bolts that came with my fence are mismatched. One of these days ill get around to mounting it.


----------



## mochoa

Good go know Stef.

So whats the deal with the fancy fences? All I have is the stock fence with a piece of plywood screwed to it. Do I need a new fenc?


----------



## RGtools

Good to see that is still available Kevin. I will speak no more of that in public. Make yourself some tiny winding sticks for the blade…I have another tip on bowsaw alignment coming up in my series, but I'd like to test it before I spout off.

Just wanted to share the final list of saws that made it in my till, and why they made it. I also wanted to see if I could get others to share their list.

1. 4.5 TPI Rip Panel Saw. This is my favorite saw. Bar-none. It's the first tool I reach for when I prep stock and it chews wood like some sort of kerf-eating demon. It has a finesse side too. The shot I took above with the 16th" piece of wast in the middle, I used this saw.










2. 8 TPI X-cut Panel Saw. Filed with a whole lot less fleam than usual (8 degrees or so). This saw cuts fast and true as a crosscut, and fine rip when needed.

3. 28 inch beast: 5 TPI bowsaw. Mostly cuts firewood. But I also use it to break down reclamation stock (if I hit a nail I can just replace the blade).

4. 24 inch tenon bow saw with a curve cutting blade: Discussed earlier. For larger joints and shapes.

5. 15 TPI dovetail saw…a craftsman gent that I took the time to nurse into a respectable tool. I use this for just about everything.

6. Olsen Coping Saw. Dovetail waste remover, and small parts shaper.

7. Carcase saw, not sharpened yet. Needs a little plate work. I put this in the till because I want something better to cut sliding DT's with.

8. Miter Saw. Also not sharpened yet, but that will change VERY soon. I sold my power miter saw and I look forward to using this tool and it's box for moldings.

That's the whole list.


----------



## CL810

*RG *- I'd be interested in your thoughts on the 8 TPI X-cut. I'm in the hunt for a X-cut saw and trying to decide what to focus in on. What lead you to settle on the 8 tpi (vs. 10 or 12) and less fleam?


----------



## terryR

*Ryan*, your tool chest is also making me think twice about wall hung cabinets…it's so nice! And, that's how they protected tools back in the day…Nice list of saws in the till as well!

*Mauricio*, congrats on the LN saw…they sure make quality tools IMO! I've been drooling over their panel saw for months…

RE: *bandsaws*, it sounds to me like you've got yours set up pretty well. I also place the roller guides against the blade, then adjust them slightly so they stop spinning as the blade is running. Also, don't forget the lower set of guides…PIA, but important.

I keep a 1/2" woodslicer blade on my 14" Grizzly all the time. Clean it with spirits…knock down the back edge just a tad with a stone, and they usually last a year. Not too bad for $40. Although, I'm now due to change again…so may have to check out that skip tooth blade this time around?

I've been so frustrated with drift during re-sawing, that I stopped using the fence! I now just do it freehand using a pivot point (usually my right thumb) or a pivot fence clamped just before the blade. Much better results after a bit of practice! But, going slow, I can re saw even Bubinga 8" thick so straight that only one or two passes through the planer removes my errors.

My biggest problem is, I think of the bandsaw as MY go to saw…trying to kick that habit and use handsaws more!

Saws are like clamps…you can never have enough of them!


----------



## lysdexic

Terry - I vaguely remember something about why you hit the back of the blade with a stone. Can you remind me?


----------



## shampeon

The stone on the back of the blade helps with curved cuts, or so I'm told. I've never done it myself.


----------



## terryR

I believe it's to reduce drag. I just do it out of habit now.


----------



## terryR

Oh yeah, Ian is right. Maybe I'm wasting my time stoning the re-saw blade. 

I use the Grizzly with woodslicer blade for straight cuts only…got a cheapo Ryobi 9" bandsaw for curves. And a nice scrollsaw for details.


----------



## RGtools

*Re-Bandsaws* I can't input much beside echoing the sentiment that I would like to ditch my table saw and get a bandsaw instead. It seems to fit better in a hand-tool shop, since most joinery get's done at the bench.

*Regarding 8 TPI X-cut* I selected this tool because it felt nice in my hand, had all it's teeth, was straight with a good blade, and cost $20 (an Old Disston)...no thought about tooth geometry was actually had at the time. I messed around with the fleam as I learned what I liked and what I disliked in a saw and this is where I ended up. I wanted a saw that cut fast, while leaving a surface clean enough to quickly surface with a handplane, I also wanted something that could take a more refined rip cut. I really like this combo and if I could just have one saw, this is the way I would file it.


----------



## mochoa

Ryan, I have an old 8tpi cross cut saw I need to restore. I'll have to refer back to your info here when I do.

The one thing I would miss about the TS (assuming I could consistently get my BS to do what I want it to) is lining up and cross cutting a whole bunch of identical parts with the crosscut sled. However now that I think about it I could do that on the chop saw if added a wooden fence I could clamp stops on which would also control tear out.


----------



## Brit

I dunno, I go away and for a few days and chew the cud on another forum and when I get back, the saws have tails on them. What's up with that? Now go and caress your favourite tote, look you beloved in the medallion and say "It meant nothing, you'll always be my #1."

Ok carry on…


----------



## DanKrager

RE: stoning the back edge of the band saw blade:
I've been told that rounding the back corners of the blade helps prevent flex cracking from starting along the sharp corners. I supposed that it does reduce drag on curves, but I think only the tiny blades would benefit noticeably. So, IMHO longevity of the blade is the main reason for rounding the back corners. If you can't notice a difference, then it isn't worth it. But how do you know? 

DanK


----------



## terryR

LOL, Andy!

I spent time applying oil/wax to all my handsaw totes yesterday…left them stacked to dry on the grizzly table saw! 

DanK, you raise a good point…how do we really know if mod'ing the saw blade works better? Before and after cuts would be needed. I just remember reading that tip from an ol' timer, so all my blades get stoned now. Hmmm…that didn't sound right…


----------



## chrisstef

Dibs on goin to Terry's shop!! You can call me a blade anytime.


----------



## terryR

^LOL…


----------



## mochoa

I dont know about the rest of you but I'm kind of hurt to know that Andy chews the cud on other forums. All this time I think he is busy with work, traveling and what not, and it turns out he is two timing on us…


----------



## Brit

*Mauricio* - It's all good. Just doing some saw research bro. My LJ buddies are still my go to crew when I need me some homie chillin.

On another note, a little while ago we discussed the Veritas File Holder on this thread and I know some of you have got yours already. I got mine last week and I was quite disappointed at the inaccuracy of it. When I align the 0 degree mark on the fleam protractor with the corresponding mark on the housing, the result is far from 0 degrees of fleam as you can see below. The straight edge of the protractor should be parallel with my Starrett straight edge and it obviously isn't which defeats the whole purpose of the tool really.










I crudely measured the inaccuracy to be 2 degrees.










Obviously this is unusable because if I set the protractor to 25 degrees left I will actually be filing 27 degrees of fleam and if I set it to 25 degrees right, I will actually be filing 23 degrees of fleam. That's a difference of 4 degrees and any saw filed like that just ain't gonna work properly. I suspect the problem was caused by the hole in the fleam protractor being drilled slightly off-center to the left.

I've contacted their customer support and I have no doubt they will rectify the situation. I only mention it here because I doubt mine is the only guide with this problem. If you've bought one of these guides, I recommend you check the accuracy of it before you use it.


----------



## chrisstef

Andy you can join Terry and I in his shop. He, myself, and his blades will certainly be chillin after he stones us. Just like jelly roll.

Thats pretty weak about the protractor being that far off. Weve come to know veritas for high quality gear and accuracy to boot. Im sure they will make it right but knowing we might have to wait for the second generation For true results sucks. All though we can rest assured that our homey Andy is bird doggin things.

Thanks for the update.


----------



## donwilwol

Party at Terry's?

geez Andy, I can do better by eye than that.

I need to find time to use my new Veritas guide. Been busy with infills.


----------



## Brit

My issue aside, I think Veritas have done a great job for the price point on their version of the file holder. There are a couple of things I don't like about it. One is that the finger grip is too smooth and shaped in such a way that sweaty fingers keep slipping off (easily fixable). The other is that the graduations on the fleam protractor are quite faintly etched and difficult to see unless you angle it just right in the light. They would be better as indentations that were filled with black like you get on a metal rule.

Isaac from Blackburn Tools has just released his version which is a bit more upmarket, but at $105 (with the Level attachment) or $95 without it instead of $39.50 for the Veritas version, I guess you're paying for it too. Both great tools in my opinion. If I was sharpening saws professionally, I would lay down the cash for Isaac's version I think.



















More info on his site and here on Woodnet.


----------



## terryR

Oh yeah, definately a party in my shop this weekend! Bring your shop vac with ya…I'm cleaning a year's worth of sawdust off everything!  cough, cough…

Andy, that sucks your saw guide is off by 2 degrees! Honestly, mine is still in the package since I'm not prepared for sharpening a saw yet (no vise, one good file, already behind on mowing the freekin grass). But, NOW I have to measure it with a square to find out…If this tool isn't right, it's going back to LV!

I'd much rather have the Blackburn version without the plastic level, please. Man, I hate plastic! Just gimme the wood, steel, and brass…sell the plastic to cell phone makers…

Maybe there's something to be said for learning this skill freehand…just sayin'...


----------



## terryR

Oooohhh…one note…

Isaac's sweet-looking saw guide shown above is being sold as fast as he can make 'em! There's already a waiting list of 'several months'.


----------



## Brit

Terry - I pride myself on having a good eye. Maybe it is my engineering training, but I can tell when something is off even by just a fraction. At the moment I don't believe either of these guides could improve my filing, much less make my saws cut any better. BUT, and it is a big but, having read what the saw experts over on Woodnet say on the matter, I have to give it a try if only to satisfy my curiosity. These file holders are certainly not required equipment though and you can get perfectly good results with a block of wood on the end of your file.


----------



## OnlyJustME

He could probably put a glass level vial on it for ya Terry but one slight little mishap and it's not a level vial any more.
Them Blackburn holders make me wish i had a precision metal lathe.


----------



## Brit

OnlyJustME - I know what you mean. Not to take anything away from what Isaac has achieved, but I could have easily made that back in my engineering days. Ho-hum.


----------



## mochoa

Sounds like there is some untapped knowledge over at woodnet, maybe I need to branch out.

Sorry to hear about the discrepancy on the Veritas file holder. I'm sure they will make it right.


----------



## Quaternion

Thanks for the info on the Veritas file holder Andy. Now I'll have to check mine. Like Terry, mine's still in the box, not ready to use it yet (too many other high priority projects!) but I'll get it out and have a look.


----------



## MrRon

If one collects handsaws, is an old saw covered in rust and lost it's temper still a collectors item even if it can no longer be used? I'm talking about saws 50+ years old that were good in their day, like Disston and Atkins.


----------



## MrRon

I agree with what Brit says. I used to have a saw sharpening shop and sharpened handsaws by eye without any stinkin file guide (guides weren't around yet). After a few hundred saws, it becomes second nature. It's the same with sharpening anything; plane blades, knives, drill bits. It's a skill worth developing. I have nothing against file guides or any guides for that matter. I just object to the high price for such gadgets in general. I will learn how to do it before spending a lot of money. I know some will say, "I don't have the time to learn how to" and that is a sad commentary of our society.


----------



## bandit571

Been using a pair of Visegrips to hold my files with. been using existing teeth to guide the files. Just Down & Dirty?


----------



## Brit

Rob Lee has been in touch and will send a new File holder out to me on Monday. It is hard to find better service than that these days.


----------



## chrisstef

Love me some solid customer service. Thanks for letting us know Andy. Mistakes happen, its all about the recovery.


----------



## Don2Laughs

I started 'learning' to sharpen my saws about 6 months ago and …. whew …. I'm sure I've complicated this fairly simple task beyond measure but … I've progressed from swap meet (Sargent & Disston) saw vises, mexican & Indian saw files to my new Gramercy Vise and Grobet files … as well as the guide from Isaac Blackburn. I got the predecessor to the new one offered by Isaac and I've found it to be invaluable. 
I think one perspective to consider is that many, if not most, of us came to the saw sharpening aspect of woodworking as part of our personal growth rather than as indentured apprentices to professional craftsmen. I love my saws. Taking a file to one of them was a big challenge for me and it took many hours watching Ron Herman, Chris Swarze and may others before I had the confidence to even pick up a file. I thank God for folks like Isaac Blackburn, Matt Cianci and Bob Smalser and others for having the kindness to lend me their know-how to build my confidence. And …. you folks have been very helpful to me as well …. thank you.


----------



## Brit

Don - I think sometimes you've got to complicate things before you realise what is important in a process and then simplify it again. I do this all the time.

I was the same when I started sharpening saws. I read and watched everything I could on the subject (sometimes more than a few times) and then gingerly tried things myself. I didn't get everything right first time, but each time I thought about what had gone wrong and how best to fix it and now I have arrived at a process that works well for me and sharpening no longer intimidates me. Along the way, I have learnt that what works for one person doesn't always work for another person.

Good luck with your sharpening.


----------



## Don2Laughs

Thanks Andy. Your saw vise build conveyed your passion to me and almost convinced me to copy it but it wouldn't have worked in my small shop. Thanks for the support & inspiration.
It's been (and continues to be) a back 'n forth process for me. I've just gotten comfortable enough to attempt sharpening the rip saws in the shop and have enjoyed a bit of success with my treasured Disston #8 and several backsaws. they are definitely sharp and can follow a line. As for Xcut sharpening ….. I was about ready to tackle that task and I ran across this site http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/sawjig/index.html which stopped me in my tracks. I don't intend to build a sharpening jig so, I guess, I'll just practice on some lesser saws to try to develop some hand/eye coordination and confidence.
Having devoted a lot of time to this endeavor, I think I'll try to turn my attention to a few projects and then come back to it. My passion is strong though and I'm rarely able to lay something down until I'm satisfied I've conquered it.


----------



## terryR

Yeah, maybe I'm trying to over-complicate matters whilst learning to sharpen saws, too. I guess I was hoping for some sort of guide to make sharpening easy at first until I built up confidence and the correct muscle memory…

Sorry, but IMO the *Veritas* filing guide is worthless! I finally took mine of the package today…seems square enough. But feels flimsy for what I paid. The fleam fence doesn't lock into position no matter how hard I tighten the thumbscrew, or which washer I add. The little fence just moves at the slightest bump…I could probably fix that.

But the numbers from the fence to the housing are difficult to align with my old eyes. Neither graduations are machined into their respective part…just painted on. Cheap. Heck, a positive stop would be nice for 0 and 25 degrees, but none is present.

So, I thought I'd insert one of those cheap Indian files I bought from *Grobet USA* and file a few worthless saw teeth. Nope. My 10 thumbs can't hold onto the tiny device. I guess I could mod that?

Jeez, what a waste of $$...I bet I can do it with a block of wood…AND I'm motivated to prove it!

off rant…


----------



## bandit571

Was running a "Green saw' around on some walnut today









as for holding a file to work on a saw's teeth









Found this to work the best for me.


----------



## terryR

^I'm right behind ya on the vise grip plan, Bandit! One of the best tools in the shop…besides a 5pound hammer and a 1500 degree heat gun!


----------



## Brit

Get a proper handle already! They're so cheap. Alternatively, get one like Brad blogged about here.


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## CL810

*+1 Brit *- A short while after Brad posted about his file handle one popped up on ebay so I snagged it. It is unbelievable the grip it gets on the file. I second Brad's suggestion to pick one up.


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## GMatheson

Not all Veritas tools are as bad as the filing guide. The Pocket Dovetailer is a great little tool for working on your dovetails when you are away from the shop.


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## RGtools

^that has to be a prank…and yet I still want it.


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## Mosquito

lol I've seen that one pop up before. Dovetailed toast would be sweet though…


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## chrisstef

Dovetailing on the can seems just fine in my book.

"whatcha doin in there" 
"just trying to get this damn tail to fit, the sides keep rubbin, its too tight" 
"Lotion's in the medicine cabinet if ya need it" 
"Dont worry ill just use my mallet"


----------



## Brit

Brilliant. I can't believe they actually made the thing for the demo.


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## AnthonyReed

Thank you for the heads-up Andy.

Thanks for the visual Stef.


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## CL810

Doesn't everyone's wife dovetail their toast?


----------



## RGtools

Medium cheese dovetails more easily than sharp, don't ask me how I know this.


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## bandit571

Actuallu USEd a saw today









More than once, actually, as i had some tenons to cut









Just saw down to where the teeth just are below the surface. Then a chisel can split off the waste









Had four aprons to cut out, and cut tenons on each end. Green Saw was used a lot today, as well.









Three hours of sawing, and a little hand plane work later









Maybe I'll work on some mortises next?


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## AnthonyReed

You are unstoppable Bandit. It is looking good.

Whatcha making?


----------



## bandit571

A Fancy-schmanzy Walnut Table. Have a few legs to mortise up, then clamp the aprons in place.









Legs to be recycled









and a three board top of Black Walnut.


----------



## AnthonyReed

Looking forward to the reveal.


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## bandit571

How about a PIP, for now?









Still needs a finish….


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## theoldfart

Sweet


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## AnthonyReed

It looks great Bandit. Nice work!


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## OnlyJustME

Sexy legs. Are they walnut too?


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## bandit571

One coat of BLO turned them a nice walnut colour. But, I doubt they are walnut. Wood was very weathered, though.


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## CL810

*Bandit * - Are you man or machine?? You do more in one month than I do in a year!! Great work.


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## chrisstef

^ its the stache, it holds mythical powers i swear. I totally agree.


----------



## bandit571

After one coat of the BLO/Poly mix









to the underside, and to the top









and yes, it will need a second coat…


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## TerryDowning

Coming right along the Bandit!

Very Nice.


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## lysdexic

Nice job there Bandito.


----------



## mochoa

Wow, great work Bandit!


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## terryR

Yep, that one is a Keeper, Bandit. Gotta love the figure in the walnut…Will be a shame to place anything on this table because you cover up the wood!


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## lysdexic

A public service announcement:

I was teaching my son to saw 0or trying to). He was getting the hang of it with the D-8 and then requested to use the Bad Axe. He likes this saw particularly because its name is almost a cuss word. Regardless, why not? Let him give it a try.

He began to get a little bound up in his stroke, got frustrated and torqued the plate.




























The last picture is the reflection of a window with blinds. My thoughts were: do I send it back to Bad Axe to smith it straight with the consequent cost or do I just live with it?

Ironically, I was listening to the "Wood Talk Online" podcast that week and someone else had a similar problem. Marc Spagnoulo emailed Mark at and Bad Axe who explained that the blade was not kinked but merely had come out of tension. This is easily rectified with some gentle mallet blows. His explanation is here.

I made a little block to slide over the blade and gave a few taps here and here…..



















The results…..




























Some of you more advanced saw restorers may know this but I was a new phenom for me. I am tickled to fix my saw so easily.


----------



## 489tad

lydexic, So with the saw in the vertical position you tapped on the block. Is the block bottom in contact with the back brace or bottom of slot in wood block in contact with the saw teeth? Excellent tip to remember. Thanks.


----------



## chrisstef

Ive gotta say that that is a great save Scotty. I can imagine the heart sinking feeling of seeing an expensive saw kink up on ya. Be real hard to be upset with the little guy though. Better tone back on the protein supplements, hes gettin a little too strong ya know.


----------



## Mosquito

Glad you got it fixed, Scott. That was one messed up saw there. Bet your son was glad it was easily fixed too…


----------



## waho6o9

Nice save Lysdexic and thanks for the tip.


----------



## lysdexic

Dan, the instructions are to tap the back of the saw. I felt it more efficient to make a block to straddle the plate instead attempting glancing blows.

Stef, Gray, my son, screwed up the saw a couple weeks ago. Today I am letting him move out of the basement and back into his room. He has been practicing proper hand sawing techinique in the dark, crapping in a bucket, with only bread and water for fourteen days straight.


----------



## Brit

Nice one Scot. Easy isn't it? All that happened was the blade slipped slightly in the back. It is the same thing as taking a sheet of paper and holding it vertically at both ends then rotating your hands inwards slightly. The bottom edge will still taught and the top edge will have a wave. That's why I like folded backs on my backsaws because you can easily rectify a wave in a plate. You can't do that on saws that have the blade riveted to the back or stuck into the back.


----------



## Brit

My replacement file holder from Veritas was waiting for me when I got home on Friday along with a little screw-on level that I'd ordered from Dieter Schmid's Fine Tools.



I ordered the level because some of the saw experts who frequent the hand tool forum on Woodnet.net say adding a level to your rake guide greatly improves the consistency of your filing. I haven't tried it yet so I can't comment, but this morning I modified the level to fit on my Veritas file holder.



View from the top. I still have full access to the allen screw for securing the file at any rake angle.



View from below. You can see where I had to file a 45 degree chamfer to provide enough clearance at any fleam angle. The level is made from aluminium.



Here is the guide set to 30 degrees of fleam. I have full fleam rotation past the 45 degree mark in both directions. The level is attached using two brass grub screws. Under each screw is a spring and under each spring is a ball bearing. It is the ball bearing that makes contact with the fleam protractor when you tighten the grub screws. It grips tightly and leaves no marks on the fleam protractor.



Side view.



Finally a view showing how I modified the level with a file to allow sufficient clearance to adjust the file holder. I'll give it a splash of black paint next time I'm restoring a hand plane. The Veritas File holder has not been modified in any way.



Hope it helps anyone else who might be considering this modification to the Veritas File Holder.


----------



## chrisstef

Lys - ya know, sometimes i wish my wife would treat me like you did your son. Banished to the basement! Aww shucks …. I got cable, a big bucket, and a shop full of tools. Dont threaten me with a good time.


----------



## MrRon

Brit, What camera are you using. Those pictures are real sharp. It even picked up your fingerprint.


----------



## Brit

MrRon - It's a Samsung ST200F. It is only a little compact that I bought with some hotel reward points that I tend to collect a lot of in the course of my job.


----------



## Brit

Jennyzinger - Wouldn't we all love!


----------



## ksSlim

Think Jenny is outta luck. Most of us have too much sawdust in our jeans.


----------



## OnlyJustME

I think Jenny is on the wrong forum.


----------



## ShaneA

Scott, I am sure it wasn't the cost of that saw that had you worried, but the painfully long wait you endured to get it. Is that a 720 Stanley in the 1st pic? You holding out on us? WTF?


----------



## terryR

Scott, great save on that Bad Axe plate! I have to record your method of repair in my brain for future. Next time let your son use the Veritas backsaw.  Darn…I'm STILL waiting on my BA rip saw…put down a deposit in December…

Andy, you da man! Nice mod on that file holder…I'm gonna mail you my Veritas file holder so you have spare patrs to play with!


----------



## Brit

I thought you guys might like to see one of the stars of my saw sharpening video that I'll be recording next week (weather permitting). I posted a couple of photos of this saw a few weeks ago as it was when I bought it, but now I've restored it. It is a W. Tyzack, Sons & Turner No.3 hand saw, 26" plate filed 5 1/2 ppi with an English beech handle. The 1921 catalogue says it was a saw specially selected for high class cabinetwork. In those days, you could have bought a dozen of these saws for 90 shillings (old money) which equates to £4.50 in today's money. Makes you sick doesn't it? Mahogany or Rosewood handles would have cost you 8 shillings extra per dozen and ebony would have cost you 20 shillings extra per dozen.













Brad had asked if I could cover the problem of cows and calves or big teeth, little teeth that so many new saw sharpeners encounter when they first start and this saw has that problem. I'll be showing why it happens and how to put it right. I can't wait to sharpen it and try it out now.


----------



## OnlyJustME

Of course when that was made 3 shillings would feed you for the day.


----------



## terryR

Andy, what a lovely saw! Did you shape that lamb's tongue, or is it factory? A very nice little feature that shows someone loves what they do IMO.


----------



## BrandonW

Wow, what a beautiful saw, Andy. Every vintage saw prays that it will somehow end up in your hands to live life anew.


----------



## donwilwol

Andy, that is sweet.


----------



## Brit

OnlyJustMe - Very true my friend. Saws are cheaper now relative to the average wage I think. Still, if anyone does invent a time machine, I'm so going back to buy all the stock I can get my hands on. 

Terry - All the detail in the handle was already there. I just placed my files where the saw handle maker had placed theirs to restore the crispness to the form.

Brandon - I'd welcome them with open arms. Come my children, come.


----------



## Brit

Thanks Don.


----------



## GMatheson

That is a beautiful saw Andy. I hope these two come out half as shiny as yours.

I picked these up at a tool sale today. A pair of Rob Sorby saws from Sheffield.


----------



## Brit

Congratulations. They look like they'll clean up real well. The handles look to be in good shape and there's loads of usable plate left.


----------



## planepassion

But Andy, you HAVE gone "back in time," courtesy of boot and yard sales. Your stock hasn't been new and pristine upon purchase, but you take care of that in short order. Your "Elephant Brand" Tzyzack saw is a case and point. Looks fresh from the corner hardware store to me 

Looking forward to the sharpening video Andy. Calves and cows be gone!

GMatheson, very nice pick ups in those two Sorby saws. I hope they perform well for you.


----------



## racerglen

My very first saw, another pruning device, this one I recieved after my grandfather passed away in 1959.









A "Hamilton Saw Works" , I'm thinking Hamilton, Ontario, Canada.









At some point I relieved the edges on the handle and slathered on some polly, it's survived amazingly well given my wifes penchant for finishing some pruning and leaving it overnight on the grass ;-)
Needs a sharpening now so..










My somewhat secret weapon, an Eclipse #38 sharpening guide


















This'll work on the "little" teeth, the big crosscut types will be freehand .


----------



## AnthonyReed

Scott - Man, that was so painful to see. I am happy that you were able to get it sorted back out, nice job. Also good to hear the punishment fit the crime. Lackadaisical parenting runs rampant nowadays; it was the case with Stef and you certainly don't want your boy turning out like that.

Andification is back in bloom, even spreading to saw guides. Amazing work you do Andy.

Terry - Does your file holder have issues too? Did i miss something there?

Those are beauties Gmath, congratulations.


----------



## Brit

Glen - That's a nice old saw.

Thanks Tony. I think Terry said that the the thumb screw on the fleam protractor didn't hold the protractor in place no mater how hard he tightened it or what washer he put on it. Add to that the fact that he just doesn't like it and the fact that I posted photos of Isaac's beautiful file holders and…well…the rest you know.

Personally Terry, I think you should hang on to it until you've sharpened a few saws.


----------



## Brit

By the way guys, I also posted my saw on Woodnet and there's quite an active discussion going on over there if anyone feels like playing away from home.


----------



## AnthonyReed

Thank you Andy. I scrolled back up and found Terry's post (and a great one at that) about his issue. I am not sure how i missed that; i'm not one to skip posts. Anyway, sorry my lack of attention caused you work.

Terry sorry to hear about the issue.

Blackburn it is. Noted.


----------



## AnthonyReed

I believe this is Andy's intended link.


----------



## Brit

Obviously my link didn't work for you Tony. Strange, it works for me but glad to know you've got my back.


----------



## bandit571

Hey, Bandit actually USED a saw today!









How about an 8ppi (~) Pheonix Cross cut saw?


----------



## mantwi

Does anybody know anything about Fulton Handsaws. I know Sears carried them and have heard they were manufactured by C.E. Denning (Canada?) which is supposed to be a maker of fine tools. I have a chance to buy one, a 26" crosscut and it is in very good condition but I'm not familiar with the brand.


----------



## planepassion

Andy, regarding your saw on Woodnet Forum, the phrase "...see me out now," that means it will outlive you correct?

Also, don't want to stir up any politics, but condolences on the passing of Margaret Thatcher. She was a tough cookie to be sure and measurably improved England's economy. Didn't fool around with Argentina about the Falkland Islands either. And she was a staunch ally of the United States…for which I am grateful. Was sad to see that people actually celebrated her death in your country.


----------



## Brit

Brad - Yeah, that's what "...see me out" means.

Regarding Thatcher, I think she touched a lot of people's lives, some for good and some for bad but whether you agree or disagree with a lot of what she did, she had more leadership qualities than anyone who has held the office since in my opinion. However, as you say, politics aren't allowed.


----------



## GMatheson

So I was looking at the Sorby saws I picked up and was trying to find out how old they were. I couldn't find a lot of information (probably my lack of searching skills). The saw I am most interested in seems to predate etching and has the information stamped onto the plate.










So I was wondering if our resident saw experts would be able to help date this saw or at least know when they made the switch from stamping to etching.


----------



## chrisstef

Gmath - heres a decent thread on Robert Sorby saws:

http://www.backsaw.net/index.php?option=com_jfusion&Itemid=58&jfile=showthread.php&t=126

Too long, i did not read it all.


----------



## MrRon

Don W, I test the steel temper by holding the saw vertically and thumping it with a knuckle of my hand and listen for the sound. If it has a "ringing" sound, the temper is good, but if it sounds like a dull "thud", the temper is gone and no longer usable as a saw. Do you subscribe to this?
Also handsaws in very poor condition; lots of rust and pitting, are they worth trying to salvage? They will never clean up to a clean finish.


----------



## AnthonyReed

I am of no help MrRon but be patient and i am sure you will recieve some guidance for your questions on this thread.

For something completely different:

I found this to be a very helpful tip in case every handsaw on the planet was to vaporize.


----------



## mochoa

You guys should sign up for the free section of Paul Sellers Masterclass, there is a really good video on saw sharpenning.


----------



## OnlyJustME

I'm on there already and have seen the video. It is good and how i sharpened my first go at it. Works fairly well and as i get practice i'm sure it will work better.


----------



## Mosquito

I finally got around to cleaning up one of my D7's (24") and got it sharpened up a little. Need to add a little bit more set. Should take pictures. I finally have a dedicated rip saw that's useable.


----------



## TerryDowning

Hey all of you saw filing experts, How do you know when the files are dull and need to be replaced? How often do you need to buy new files?


----------



## Brit

*TerryD* asked: "How do you know when the files are dull and need to be replaced?"

The short answer is when they no longer seem to cut like they used to, but you were probably looking for the longer answer weren't you? )

As you know a saw file has 6 faces (yes 6), three larger faces and three smaller faces or edges. If you are using the right size file for the number of teeth on your saw, then even when the file is at full depth in the gullet, the tips of the teeth will only reach halfway up two of the larger faces. That means that when you have used up two halfs of two larger faces and one edge, you can rotate the file twice more and each time have two sharp halves of two larger faces and one sharp edge. So effectively you have three goes with each file if that makes sense.

You rotate the file when the two halves of the larger faces that have been doing the cutting are shiny and/or when the edge that you've been using gets worn away and no longer forms a nicely shaped gullet. The file may also start to screech as it gets blunt.

The length of time that a file will last really depends on what you are doing with it. For example, if you bought a file and used it just to touch up the existing teeth that were otherwise in good shape, the file will probably last you around 12 sharpenings, since you will only need to take one light swipe on each pair of teeth. However, if you are using the file to reshape the teeth on an old saw that has seen better days, you are likely to blow through one of your three edges pretty quickly and use one of the other edges to sharpen the reshaped teeth. If you were completely retoothing a saw plate by hand, you will usually use up one complete file by the time you have the teeth shaped and sharpened.

One other point that is worth mentioning is that not all saw files are equal. New Nicholson files are simply no longer worth the money. Buy either Grobet files, Bahco files or Vallorbe files if you are buying them new. However, it has to be said that even when you buy two files of the same size from one of these brands, you can get a good file and a not so good file, according to how consistently each batch has been hardened. I have had files where the edges crumbled away after just a few swipes and I have had files that seemed to last forever.

Lastly how you use the file will make a dramatic difference to how long it lasts. If you are in the habit of dragging the file back after each forward stroke instead of lifting it off, you will halve the life of your file.

Hope that helps.


----------



## MrRon

TerryD asked: "How do you know when the files are dull and need to be replaced?"

If a file is cutting well, you will feel and hear it cutting. If the file starts to get dull, the file tends to "glide" over the tooth easily without the feel of "digging" into the metal. One thing that I don't think anyone mentioned is; some newer saws have flame hardened teeth. These saws are not intended to be resharpened, but are "throw-a-ways".


----------



## Brit

Good points MrRon.


----------



## Brit

Mos - Pictures or it didn't happen right? )


----------



## Mosquito

guess it hasn't happened yet then


----------



## Brit

*MrRon* said "…I test the steel temper by holding the saw vertically and thumping it with a knuckle of my hand and listen for the sound. If it has a "ringing" sound, the temper is good, but if it sounds like a dull "thud", the temper is gone and no longer usable as a saw. Do you subscribe to this?
Also handsaws in very poor condition; lots of rust and pitting, are they worth trying to salvage? They will never clean up to a clean finish."

Ron I just realised that nobody responded to your questions. I was not able to at the time and then it slipped my mind, but yes I also thump my saws with a knuckle. I know some people use the method that Joe shows in the following vid, but I've never been able to do that and just end up feeling inadequate. Mind you, I've never been able to click my thumbs very well either. LOL.






Regarding old handsaws in poor condition, my experience has been that they can still cut fine. Granted, not all of them can be turned into users, but personally I don't think a bit of pitting means a saw can no longer be used. I agree that they won't ever look pretty.


----------



## DanKrager

Finally got a round tuit. I gave up waiting to find apple wood that I could afford and went with a piece of cherry. There is a better form for the Disston handle so I really want to replace this handle, but it will do for now. It is too thin also but it's what I had.
















The blade is still badly pitted but I think usable when sharpened. To joint the saw I had to remove almost 1/16" of the RAKER teeth! It had been so badly sharpened that the slicing teeth never touched the wood. It had to be a bugger to run! It will be sharpened using a good technique for forestry saws from LJ. Just have to find it again. That's all of the original handle lying there! This was so badly rusted it took several soaks to find metal. Sorry, the before never happened. (no pics).


----------



## TerryDowning

Perfect answers. This is the information missing from several (Most?) of the saw sharpening info I have read so far.

No worries for me on the "Flame Hardened" saw teeth. All of my saws are either too old for that or were too cheap when purchased.

Thanks for the details Andy, this is exactly the info I was looking for.

Now to get some files in the correct size and try may hand at getting some of my saws back to working condition.


----------



## Brit

Nice Job Dan, it looks fantastic. Does it have a hole for a secondary handle at the other end and if so, are you going to make one of those too? How long is it by the way?


----------



## Brit

*TerryD* - I've actually got next week off work to record a video on saw sharpening, so look out for that once I've edited and uploaded it. I'm really looking forward to spending a whole week knee deep in saws. )


----------



## DanKrager

Brit, it does have the hole at both ends, but I don't have the hardware. Been half heartedly looking, but not found anything yet. I think it measures 42" without the handle. 
I'm going to pm you with a question about a Stanley brace jaw malfunction.
DanK


----------



## TerryDowning

Do you have to have an elfster account to sign up?

Sorry, wrong thread. DOH!


----------



## Brit

No Terry, you don't need an elfster account. The easiest way to be notified when I post it is for you to go to my home page and click on 'Add to Buddies'. Alternatively, keep checking my Saw Talk blog because I will be embedding the video(s) there.


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## TerryDowning

darn multiple tabs.

^&*(%^&%

DOH!!


----------



## TerryDowning

Looking forward to the video Andy.


----------



## Don2Laughs

Thanks, Mauricio, for the Paul Sellers tip !! I was very impressed and decided to subscribe for the monthly fee for videos. He is about the best teacher I've seen on the many forums and classes I've visited.


----------



## Kyle82

I bought this today at a small shop full of rusty things. These pictures were after the clean up. The file for it is only 5 or so inches which didn't seem like it was long enough but that's how it's made. Does anyone have any thoughts on this piece? All I can find are sites that have auctioned these off but no real information on "Disston saw hinged jointer." That does appear to be what it is, right? The hinge was flawlessly smooth even before the rust was scrubbed off and the bolt works like a gem after the clean up.


----------



## Don2Laughs

Yes, Kyle, I found one last year and it is a real treasure. The file is rather unique … I haven't been able to find a 5" file to replace the one that it had in it when I got it … but after cleaning that file up… it still has lots of use left. also, if you haven't discovered it yet … there is an adjustment that allows you to move the file so that it is almost completely useable.
Congrats
Don


----------



## Brit

*Kyle* - It is a Disston No. 10 Hand saw Jointer. I have four Disston catalogs ranging from 1912 to 1939 and it features in all of them.

1912 catalog:










1939 catalog:


----------



## bandit571

Here is an idea: Walk into most ant Thrift store/second hand store, or even an Antique store. Look for that old coffee can of files. Files will be either loose, or a few masking taped together. You just might be surprised what is in one of them old cans….


----------



## DonBroussard

@Kyle-Nice find on the hand saw jointer. I had a giggle all by myself this morning. I was going through your posted pictures of the saw jointer, and it looked like (







) that you had dust collection hooked up to the jointer! It's just the vantage point of the photo.


----------



## Kyle82

Thanks for your input guys. I usually see 10" mill bastards suggested to joint with so I was a little thrown off by the shorter file.

*Don2*-The file is in pretty rough shape but I think I can clean it more. It's certainly still a user.

*Brit*-That's my new baby for sure… I think I might have been taken since I bought it for $10 and in your catalog it says *$5.75* *per dozen*.

*Bandit*-That's pretty much how I came across it. I was scouring my town's antique shops for a hand plane and this piece caught my eye.

*Don B*.-That's really funny. I didn't notice. I don't think I'm going to be doing that much jointing! haha


----------



## GMatheson

Anyone have any experience with the Knew Concept Aluminum Fret Saw?

I've been looking to upgrade my current cheap coping saw to something a little more user friendly. I can't see myself paying the $200 for a Titanium model but $95 for the Aluminum model is doable as long as its as good as the Internet says it is. I plan to use it mostly to cut the waste out when doing dovetails.


----------



## chrisstef

D'you just get the Veritas advertisement too Gmath? I was pondering that same thing. Its spendy. I need confirmation, first hand, that its worth the lootcakes. That damn fret saw keeps whispering in my ear.


----------



## GMatheson

Nah. I've seen the saw here and there for a while now but just started looking closely today when I decided that my coping saw was pretty much useless for what I wanted it to do


----------



## chrisstef

I second your sentiments on the coping saw. Just aint doin the dance im lookin for.


----------



## bandit571

I gave up on mine today









Wasn't cutting straight, hard on the hands to hold. So…..fired









Atkins 20" panel saw…..


----------



## CL810

I have the aluminum model. I like it - much more stable/solid then other saws I've used.


----------



## CL810

What's the verdict on the Veritas saw file holders?


----------



## RGtools

*Gmath and Stef*

Please just buy an Olsen. It's a tenth of the price and it is one of the most solid tools I have ever owned.


----------



## AnthonyReed

In my limited experience, the spiral fret saw blades make it so much easier for me to cut the waste from dovetails vs using a coping saw. I tend to dent the tail with the back of the blade on the coping saw as i am turning the cut to horizontal. To qualify that sentiment though, i am only a few IQ points from being handicapped and i have no experience with the Knew Concept or Olsen.

My fret saw is more a jeweler's saw much like this one:


----------



## Mosquito

Tony, I've got one of those jewlers saws. I've tried both spiral and non spiral blades. The spiral blades make it easier to start the cut, but I kind of like the easier tracking of the smaller non-spiral cut blades. Easier to keep it going in the direction I want it too. I prefer either one hands down compared to my coping saw though.


----------



## terryR

+1 on the Olson coping saw. I got mine from TFWW. A very nice saw IMO. Get the reverse skip tooth blades also at TFWW, night and day difference. I think I paid $20 including extra blades…

Ya know, it should be illegal for HomeD to sell crappy coping saws for $10, when a good Olson is only $15. I have both. night and day difference, again…


----------



## carguy460

Is it acceptable to forgo the coping saw and just chisel out the waste on your dovetails? I tried it with the coping saw method and really had a hard time with it…I kinda like just chiseling the junk out, but didn't know if there was a strong reason not to do that…


----------



## Mosquito

for me, Jason, yes. Not wanting to chop that much in my apartment on a workmate lol

Otherwise, I do plan on trying the chopping method at some point, since I don't really like using the saw to cut out the waste, then having to pare away.


----------



## mochoa

The chopping method is fun, they both work, just depends what kind of mood your in. 









In soft wood like poplar the chopping method is a breeze.


----------



## AnthonyReed

Jason - Getting the first bits of waste removed without marring the tails has been an issue for me in the past. Once tips are gone and there is room for clearing the remainder i am fine.

It is a matter of preference, as i have seen and read, and perfectly acceptable chiseling or sawing. I am equally terrible either way.


----------



## CL810

For me there are two reasons for sawing the waste vs. chopping it. When you saw out the waste close to the baseline it is easier to chisel the final waste out without changing the baseline. When there is a lot of resistance to the chisel it pushes the chisel against the baseline and sometimes deforms it resulting in a gap.

The second reason for me is it seems quicker. I've never timed it though so I may be wrong.


----------



## BrandonW

Third reason, the coping saw blades are cheap and easy to replace, whereas chopping out the waste will dull the chisel faster.


----------



## BrandonW

Also, while we're on the topic of coping saws, I wonder why anyone hasn't tried to make a product that fits in between the Olson coping saws (around $15) and the Knew Concept saws ($100-$200). Most people I talk to would like a better quality coping saw, but are hesitant to fork out the kind of dough that the Knew Concept saws cost, despite how many awesome reviews they've received. I think there is definitely a market for a $45 or $50 dollar saw that was a step up from the standard Olson design.

At least that's what I was thinking when I went to Highland Woodworking on Saturday to get a new coping saw. I had two previous ones that were just crap, but I couldn't afford the Knew Concepts, so I went with an Olson. So far I'm happy with it, but we'll see.


----------



## chrisstef

I second your motion BW. Much like a Veritas saw im a middle of the road consumer. Dont want the junk and dont wanna pay for the big boy toys. Id gladly shell out $40-50 clams for a good solid coping saw. I may grab the Olsen and a jewlers saw for comparison on hogging out DT waste. Reviews likely sometime in 2014.


----------



## AnthonyReed

Stef - PM your address to me and i'll send you my jewelers saw so you can test it.


----------



## Kyle82

I have the knew concepts saw but my biggest complaint is something I need to work on. It's great for making that steep angle when cutting the waste out of dovetails but I tend to be a little more aggressive than I should for such a small blade. All I have to say is there's a reason the blades come in a bundle. I'm glad I bought a couple bundles because I've broken a ton of blades during my learning curve but I'm also glad that I bought the saw.


----------



## bandit571

These are the three coping saws in my shop









one Disston #10, and two Stanleys. New Kobalt blades in them. The Kobalt blades are good for a single project, then they are junk.

This saw is kind of hard to get to start on dovetail cuts









So, I use something that does start easily, cuts straight and fast









Then just chop things out.









Grinder is sitting just out of view, but I can keep that old chisel sharp for what I need.









I might get these things figured out, some year….


----------



## Brit

I use the jewellers saw that Tony posted if I'm sawing out the waste. I use 12.5 tpi skip tooth blade. Because you can't rotate the blade with the jewellers saw, I employ a little trick that Rob Cosman uses (or at least used to use, I don't know what he does now). Grab the blade at both ends with a pair of pliers and twist it 45 degrees. If your right-handed, you twist the blade to the left and if you're left-handed you twist the blade to the right.

After sawing the tails, you angle the saw 45 degree to get it down the kerf, then start sawing on the spot and turn the blade so that it is cutting horizontally. The frame of the saw is now at a 45 degree angle and therefore does not infringe the workpiece.


----------



## DaddyZ

This might be a stupid question, has anyone ever just drilled out the waste? or even drill pilot holes in the corners then just saw straight lines with the saws, & not have to twist/turn them?


----------



## AnthonyReed

I read about Chris Schwarz drilling out half blind dovetails:









but nothing about standard dovetails.


----------



## Mosquito

I'm in the same boat as Tony. Though I just saw the video on his youtube channel, not specifically through that article.


----------



## mochoa

Not necessary, once you cut part of the waste out just come back the other way and kibble the rest out with the saw.

There was that guy (Tag Frid?) that had a specially made blade in his bow say that twisted 90 degrees. He could get right on the baseline and start sawing sideways.


----------



## bandit571

Needed to remove some waste









Mark out the 3/8" wide areas, and use a saw









and saw down to the lines. grab a chisel, and a mallet









and pop the waste off. Pare down to finish it off









Both ends together took MAYBE 10 minutes to have them done. Need to cut a dado for these to sit in, next. Saw & Chisel work?


----------



## RGtools

I like the the way a good coping saw helps keep my chisel sharp longer (a major bonus while building the Anarchist's Tool Chest). That behing said, bashing out the waste with a chisel is more manly.

I think a $40 to $50 coping saw would be a good market niche, but what would they improve from the Olsen? Or what would the strip from the Knew Concepts?

I would like a modern maker that lets you turn the blade in the fram on both ends without manual adjustment.


----------



## CL810

I missed RG's link to the Olsen earlier and just now looked at the Olsen saw. When I was responding to the inquiry about Knew Concepts' saw, I was thinking about a wood working instructor I had that sure didn't seem to have any trouble with his coping saw. After looking at the pic of the Olsen I recognized it immediately as the one my instructor had.


----------



## GMatheson

I was looking a little deeper on the Knew Concept site and they do have stripped down versions of the saw for $49 for a 5" saw and $57 for the 8" model. These saws come without the lever tension and the swivel blade clamps.


----------



## RGtools

They also have a MORE expensive one now.










I have to admit, this one is kind of cool…but I still would not trade it for my Olsen.


----------



## mochoa

Man! I want one of those big frame saws!


----------



## BrandonW

Mauricio, I've been thinking about making a big bow saw. Highland has a bunch of blades for them-- 27.5" long, I think and were around $10 each.


----------



## mochoa

Yeah I've seen them, they are pretty cool. That would be a fun project. Where can you get the hardware that holds the blade?

Ryan has one and he says they can be pretty tricky to get working right. I'm afraid if I made my own and couldnt get it to work that I would never know if it was me, or the saw that was the problem. lol.


----------



## ksSlim

Different width blades are available just like band saws.

Re saw or curves.

Plans or ideas on the web.


----------



## theoldfart

Mauricio,
Ryan sent me to Adria Tools. They have two sizes I bought the 23" turning saw
kevin


----------



## ksSlim

Might try "Tools for woodworking" 
I know they sell Gramercy (sp) stuff.

Maybe even Highland WW. they did a class a year or two back in how to make your own frame saw.

Or… you could make your own hardware.


----------



## need2boat

Guys,

I'm back up to speed! Just finished up the last of the 50 post I was behind! ;-)

JFF


----------



## AnthonyReed

Good to have you back Joe.


----------



## BrandonW

The 12" bow saw kit from Gramercy is next on the horizon for me, I think. I'd like to make one of those before trying my hand at a larger bow saw.


----------



## need2boat

Isaac at Blackburn is making Roubo frame saw blades. He was at the Craft (NJ tool club) auction last weekend and brought some to sell in the parking lot. Like ALL the stuff he make they are top shelf. He even machined a ratchet bar to allow his Foley to cut such big teeth. The largest factory size that was made I think was 4.5 or maybe 4.

Anyway food or thought.


----------



## mochoa

Thanks for the info guys, yeah, it looks like I'll have one when I get around to making it. I don't want to pay $100 for it. lol.

Ive seen thar Roubo frame saw. Renaissance woodworker had one made and he did some blogs and videos on using it. http://blip.tv/renaissance-woodworker/rww-151-roubo-resaw-frame-saw-in-action-6541019

I'm not looking to go that big. Good 2 footer would work for me.


----------



## mochoa

Eureka! Here is a source for the hardware and the string. Its in Europe though, dont know if shipping would hurt too much. 
http://www.fine-tools.com/gestell.htm#zielhanfschnur


----------



## mochoa

So the pair of holders pluss two cords, shipped is about $20, plus the $10 blade from Highland woodworking. Not to bad…


----------



## donwilwol

I was almost as far behind as Joe. You guys were busy today.


----------



## ksSlim

Woodcox posted a frame saw project a while back.
I saw some of his stuff over on the workbench thread.


----------



## mochoa

Slim thats a bow(turning) saw. I'm talking about one of those big frame saws. I want to use it for fast course ripping.

You know on secound though, how hard can this be to make? Some steel from HD, a screw, washer, and a tap…


----------



## ksSlim

I can probably set you up with a 4-6 point Diston for ripping.

It might have more drag due to plate width.


----------



## RGtools

ECE Makes a serious bow saw, and. I mention the "tricky to work with" because it takes more set up time than your standard back saw and panel saw (grab and go).

The set up has mostly to do with getting the blade tight and free of any wind, I have found in the past that two tiny winding sticks help with that job, but I would pay serious money for a saw that had blade detentes to positively stop both sides of the blade at 0 degrees (Joinery), 10 Degrees (big joinery and some ripping), and 90 degrees (heavy ripping).

This is not has big of a deal on a curve cutting saw (it still matters) but if you have a tenon blade in the thing and you don't have it set up right, the saw will let you know immediately by misbehaving.


----------



## DanKrager

While it makes for a better saw not to do this, you don't need hardware more than a pin through a wood slot to hold the blade.
PM coming your way about this saw, Maur.








DanK


----------



## donwilwol

Dan, are you trying to convert that to a chainsaw?


----------



## MrFid

I have owned the Knew Concepts 5 inch fretsaw for about two months now. I have a coping saw as well, but for dovetails oh my… what a difference. The Knew Concepts is a joy to use. Way lighter than any other fretsaw I have ever used or owned, and so easy to operate. FWIW, others mentioned the pared down Knew Con saw… although I am sure it's nice it seems worth the extra 50 bucks for what the full version can do easily.

A couple things:
I always keep my blades untensioned when not in use. The Knew Con fretsaw is no exception.

Unless you are doing SERIOUSLY deep work, the 5 inch is more than enough. With the easy 45 degree blade rotation, I can't imagine wanting more depth for dovetails. If you're using it in a different manner, maybe you'll want the 8". Not necessary for dovetail work though.

Way better than a coping saw.

Looks badass.

I bought mine from Lee Valley, and I bought some extra blades from them as well. They are great quality.

Overall, an awesome saw.


----------



## chrisstef

Thanks for the first hand review Bailey. Food for thought thats for sure.


----------



## DanKrager

Just goofing around, DonW. It has a nice blade for crosscut that needs sharpening. Trying to straighten the bent bow spreaders (bent sideways from too much tension left on it over the years) I split one. 
DanK


----------



## OnlyJustME

Had to go to the salvage store to pick up a few things for work and found a nice old saw hanging there in the tools section.




































The blade is 18" long stamped with a 12 on the heel and i can see the name BROWNE and warranted cast steel were the etch would be but it's stamped. Still has the nib and a few bends in it but not kinked.

Anyone know this saw maker?

Also got a second saw with no visible markings and 2 braces a handy man and an unknown. All for $23.


----------



## Shannytay

Can you tell me about this saw. We found it and no clue to what it is.


----------



## dbray45

OnlyJustME - I have one of those - cleaned it up and sharpened it - goes with me when I go to the big box store and get a piece of wood - cuts better than theirs.

Shannytay - it is a bow saw that is in serious need of sharpening. When cleaned up, you will find that it is a very useful saw.


----------



## Brit

*Shannytay* - What you have there is an Atkins wood saw frame. I can't tell exactly which one from your photo without seeing a close-up of the teeth.


----------



## AnthonyReed

^You are too cool.


----------



## need2boat

Only just me. 
I look in HSMON america and found a Brownell but thats about as close I found. It didn't have any info listed. Maybe get it under some better light and check closer. I'd guess it's early US mid late 1800's but early saws aren't my think. Woodnet has a bunch of saw guys on it.

Joe


----------



## OnlyJustME

Thanks Joe. What is HSMON? Unless there were letters before the B, the arch looks centered and ends with the E.
I'll have to check out Woodnet. I thought i saw somewhere that the split nuts ended in use in 1870 something. might be recollecting wrong though. 
What's the preferred method for getting a bend out of the plate?


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

In this picture is what I believe to be a Disston #7 Panel Saw.










Blade is straight and reasonably sharp (not abused). Missing the medallion, and only one of the other nut pairs is original.

I think I have a saw problem. Couldn't pass it up at $.50…


----------



## planepassion

Smitty, no one can fault you for picking up what looks like will become a great user for $0.50. The handle sports a b e a u t i f u l lambs tongue too, so great pick up!

I share your "problem" with panel saws. Estate sales seem to price them lower due to their smaller size. Yet, because most of my projects are smaller and I saw stock anchored in my face-vice as much as I do on my saw bench, I have a use for panel saws. Given my shorter "reach" I handle them better too. So I've been picking them up in various ppi configurations for a while now.

Here's the Disston panel saw I picked up recently at an estate sale-at ten times the price you paid! ($5.00).

The medallion dates it to between 1940-1947; it's 12 ppi, 20" long, the sawplate is very clean and straight. Oh, and the smaller handle fits better in my hand too. That's the case for me with all my panel saws. Haven't sharpened it yet but will add it to the saw till eventually for those operations calling for a fine cut.


----------



## donwilwol

my biggest problem is I have to many problems!!


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Brad, the saw was set on the driveway, in the rain, all by itself with no price. I saw the nib, lamb's tongue and bird's mouth and said, 'Hey, that's all the things about saws I love!' and bought it. Now to find the right medallion and nut combinations somewhere. Isn't this hobby grand??


----------



## planepassion

On the driveway in the rain…brings to mind Rick waiting for Elsa at the Paris rain station in the movie Casablanca…so sad. But your story has a happy ending 

Whew…buying the brass stuff new gets pricy. So your best bet may be to find an on-death's-door donor saw and scavenge the saw nuts/bolts from it. Same thing with the medallion. That handle and nib on your saw makes the heart go pitter pat. I have a No. 7 panel saw and love it.


----------



## Don2Laughs

Hey, smitty, I've found nuts & medallions on ebay when needed. Just gotta look for them.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/VTG-Disston-Hand-Saw-Nut-Medallion-NOS-New-Unused-13-16-USA-Keystone-Silver-/260988932951?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cc4271357

good Find!!

Good luck!


----------



## TobyC

Hey Smitty,
If that handle is apple it's a No. 8, see if there's an etch. (carefully!)

Toby


----------



## OnlyJustME

I paid $5 for my little 18" Browne #3 saw. It has the nib and split nuts but no lambs tongue.


----------



## widdle

For you guys that were asking about the knew concepts saws a couple pages back…
as a carpenter i used coping saws quite a bit and have used them on the little amount of dt's in woodworking (im green)they seem to work ok
a friend lent me a knew concepts saw.. its light comfortable..and the tiny blades make the first turn alot tighter…But the stroke seems really short..It takes a short blade..And the knobs at each end seem to make the sawing really awkward…basically i found it not that great..and dont think it is very durable..just a thought..


----------



## OnlyJustME

So i'm cleaning up one of the small 18" saws i just got and i found an etch on it under all the rust.
It says in big letters THE IMP across the top and in the center of it is a K with Trademark in circle formation around it and Made In USA at the bottom. The saw has no medallion just 3 plain saw nuts. I cant seem to find any info about it doing a google search except maybe a reference to it in an old Atkins ad for sale on ebay and the image is not very good so i cant read it.
Any one know about it?


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Toby, alas, it's really a #7. It's a hard pic to get, but the '7' in script is visible in the etch.


----------



## TobyC

OnlyJustME,
Look HERE on page 140, It's a second line Disston.
Got pics?

Toby


----------



## TobyC

Nice Smitty,

Looks like this one,










From HERE.

Toby


----------



## OnlyJustME

Thanks Toby.


----------



## TobyC

OnlyJustME,
That Browne #3 is interesting! It definitely says BROWNE, I put the image in a new tab and zoomed to 175%.
Split nuts ended in 1875 for Disston, and others would have been changing over around the same time in the US.
UK and elsewhere used them for a bit longer.
Disston sold a "BROWN'S No. 3" saw much later, (no split nuts) and the handle looks very similar.
HERE Page 136.

Toby


----------



## TobyC

I wasn't clear on my last post. I think your "BROWNE #3" is an earlier version of the Disston "BROWN'S No. 3".

Toby


----------



## OnlyJustME

Toby, the Browne #3 has a medallion of the eagle with warranted superior. No Disston name on it. According to the Disstonian institute even the earliest medallions had Disston's name on it.









Comparing to the style of the eagle in the disston medallions i would date the saw to the 1860's assuming most of the medallions followed the same styling across manufacturers.

Here is The Imp etch on the other saw.

















Will evaporust damage the etch? how should i continue to clean up the blade without damaging the etch?


----------



## OnlyJustME

I found a Browne #3 recently sold on ebay. The handle is completely different though.


----------



## TobyC

OnlyJustME,

[" Warranted Superior medallions are found on secondary lines manufactured by Disston and other major saw makers with other brand names on the etch. "]

From HERE. (bottom of the page)

In other words, if it didn't say "Disston" on the etch or blade stamping, then it didn't say "Disston" on the label screw. Even the Keystone, or "K" series saws (Disston) used the Warranted Superior medallion.

I agree with your date assessment.

Evaporust won't damage the etch, exactly, but it can make it harder to see by making the dark color go away.
Use a sanding block and wet/dry sandpaper and go easy in the etch area.

Toby


----------



## BrandonW

Does anyone have recommendations on where to get split-nuts and bolts for saw rehabs? I know that Gramercy has some and so does Bad Axe, but is there another good source for new bolts and nuts? I'm doing a rehab on a large cross cut back saw and had to toss the old split nuts because they were stripped and trashed by the previous owner.


----------



## TobyC

HERE.

Toby


----------



## BrandonW

Thanks Toby. I purchased them from Isaac Smith at Blackburn Tools because he has nice bronze split-nuts and a nice spanner that I picked up as well.

http://www.blackburntools.com/new-tools/new-saws-and-related/saw-nut-spanner/index.html


----------



## TobyC

He has other nice saw related things as well.

You got them before my post?

Toby


----------



## BrandonW

Toby, I've seen his stuff before when we were talking about saw file guides, but I didn't know he sold split-nuts until you put up the link. So it was your post that made me consider them.


----------



## need2boat

OnlyJustME

The book I looked it up in was "Hand-Saw Makers of North America" by Erv Schaffer. It's a little out dated for things like this but Its still a useful reference. It's in the process of being updated but I haven't heard a date yet. I PDF version of the out of print book is also for sale but I found the scan PDF a little hard to read considering the asking price.

JFF


----------



## CL810

Does anyone know of videos or books on making saw handles?


----------



## TobyC

Lots to see HERE.

Toby


----------



## CL810

Thanks Toby - just what I was looking for.


----------



## bandit571

Road Trip finds today









Shorty is 14" long WS crosscut. The biggie is a 5ppi rip saw, no meadallion. $5 for the two saws, $3 for the Stanley #110.

As for the Place where these came from?









They had a bunch of saws. Location? Ain't saying, as I might want a few more saws….


----------



## AnthonyReed

Well done Bandit.


----------



## BrandonW

Monday was my birthday and so I got this bad boy. Just arrived today. Can't wait to use it.


----------



## chrisstef

Better than some sh!tty cake ^


----------



## donwilwol

Sweet!!

(the saw, not the cake!)


----------



## AnthonyReed

Happy birthday Brandon.

Gorgeous saw. Rip tenon saw?


----------



## BrandonW

Yup, a 14" rip tenon saw. It's my first premium saw (if you don't count the two Veritas saws that I own as well).


----------



## Don2Laughs

I've owned one of those for 3 years … you'll absolutely love it.


----------



## AnthonyReed

Nice. Congrats bud.


----------



## lysdexic

Brandon - You lucky (but deserving) dawg. Gorgeous.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Brandon, don't know how to tell you this so I'll just come out and say it: You're not ready for a saw of that caliber. Send it to me so no one gets hurt, and when some time has passed…


----------



## BrandonW

Smitty, we all know you don't like shiny things.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

But I'd do this for you, my friend.


----------



## chrisstef

And the handle would come back painted.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Damn, you guys know me too well.

~ Congrats and Happy Birthday, Brandon!


----------



## BrandonW

WTF, you painted my curly maple handle green??!

Thanks guys.


----------



## mochoa

Happy B Day Brandon, awesome saw man!


----------



## BrandonW

I knew you got the LN DT saw, Mauricio, and I couldn't have you showing me up, so I went big with the tenon saw.


----------



## mochoa

, can you believe I havent even tried my saw yet.


----------



## OnlyJustME

Happy B-day Brandon. Gorgeous present.


----------



## CL810

Wow Brandon - it's a beaut! If you're worried about shipping to Smitty, send it to me and I'll drive over and hand deliver it to him.


----------



## OnlyJustME

Mauricio, i dont think you are allowed to have the saw any more. You better send it to me before they come to take it back.


----------



## mochoa

You're right OJM, I dont deserve this saw. I now have a pile of tools that need attention, some old some new.

For now it just sits on a peg next to my HPOYD calendar.


----------



## bandit571

This big rip saw has a few "issues" with it.









It seems that a replacement handle is on it. Toke the tote of, and found a few extra holes…

I did find parts of an etch. Looks like a pair of arched lettering, with a .......G A T…. on the right end.

Saw is a 26" long Skew back with a 5ppi count. More pictures when I get back from Wally World….


----------



## Brit

Happy B'day Brandon. Lovely saw that's gone to a good home. Enjoy it!


----------



## terryR

Happy B-day, Brandon! I have the same rip saw…you will love it! I want their crosscut version, too, so I will stop using my old Harvey Peace so much…and the bandsaw!


----------



## BrandonW

I purchased some bronze split-nuts and screws as well as a split-nut spanner from Isaac Smith (Blackburn tools). I'm pretty satisfied with my order and can't wait to finish that tenon saw restore I've been working on. Now I'm only worried the old saw won't be worthy of such nice hardware.


----------



## bandit571

That large rip saw does have a bit of an etch on it. Looks like a lot of fancy scroll work, but the only lettering so far has been a …...G…A T…. Handle is a frankentote. Did Atkins make a shew back 5ppi saw?









Teeth are fairly sharp yet, too. Might just have a nice rip saw in the shop. NOW I need to make a saw bench for it….


----------



## OnlyJustME

Just through them nice new saw nuts in your pocket with some spare change for a couple days and they will look more the part. 
That is a nice split nut spanner.


----------



## Airframer

Doing some handle replacement surgery myself. Swapping the gents handle on my Crown saw with a more appropriate one. More pics in My Blog


----------



## GMatheson

Looks like it'll be a nice little saw.


----------



## lysdexic

AF- that is going to be awesome.


----------



## waho6o9

Beautiful saw Brandon and Happy B-day my friend.


----------



## mochoa

Wow AF that is cool! Its going to look awesome.


----------



## Airframer

Thanks guys! I am pretty excited to be creating something in the shop instead of cleaning something.

The end of tonight's progress on it…


----------



## donwilwol

nice job Eric. That's going to be a nice little DT saw when your done.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Beautiful work, AF!


----------



## waho6o9

Good stuff Eric.


----------



## chrisstef

Eric you hot dog murdering ba$ard that looks great! Ive got the same crown gents saw and while I like the saw the hot dog handle just doesn't feel right in my hand like it does for Tony. He used to that kinda stuff. What the finish gonna be on it? It came out wicked cool and definitely an upgrade.


----------



## lysdexic

^ funny

Eric- did you say that handle was cherry? Well done sir.


----------



## Airframer

Hah Stef! I could never quite get the hang of the old handle on that saw either. This little upgrade should make this $20 saw just fine. As for finish, I haven't quite decided yet. Probably either BLO or Danish oil and wax but am open to suggestions.


----------



## terryR

Eric, nice job on the tote! I would vote for BLO unless you wanted to add color with colored Danish Oil.

Either way, nice upgrade!


----------



## mochoa

I dont think BLO would protect it enough from dirty hands. I'd want at least a little bit of a film finish, at least use some 3-2-1.


----------



## donwilwol

I posted this on the "other" thread.

if its cherry, i'd go BLO. I love the way cherry reacts to blo and the oils from your hands along with natural cherry darkening.

Wax can protect against dirty hands if that's a concern.

EDIT: (although 3-2-1 wouldn't be a mistake either)


----------



## BrandonW

I just finished a handle with BLO and wax, but then I didn't like it, so I refinished it with spray lacquer.


----------



## need2boat

I use to stay as far away from shellac as I could but at some point I worked my way thru all the topcoats and landed on it.

I buy fakes from TFWW (locally making it a little easier for me). I mix 2oz of dry flake to 9oz of liquid in a glass mason jar. For handles I just wiped it on with a cut square of cotton. after it dries I use a fine steel wool and coat with wax. For light restores I use one coat and if you're worried about heavy use put a few more on. Touch ups or refinish is simple and shellac works with most finishes so you don't need to worry about fogging if you want to spay a lacquer finish.

Joe


----------



## lysdexic

Brandon,

Was your handle cherry? Don's observation about cherry and BLO has me curious.


----------



## AnthonyReed

"I'm pretty satisfied with my order…." Was there an issue, Brandon? It looks like it is super high quality.

Great work AF.

Stef tends to poke himself in the eye if the dog is not steadied.


----------



## Airframer

Just finished it up and it feels great! There are a few flaws but nothing that anyone but me would see. Pretty stoked with my new "Premium" $20 saw


----------



## BrandonW

Nope, the handle wasn't cherry. I believe it was apple wood, but I could be wrong.

Tony, I am very pleased with my order from Blackburn Tools. I should have made that clearer. 

Here's a link to the saw rehab:

http://lumberjocks.com/BrandonW/blog/35937


----------



## bandit571

Sanding the plate of that old rip saw,,,,,,, LOTS of almost readable etchings. All out of Cold Blue to bring things out, suggestions on a household product to do the job? Etch is a third of the length of the plate! And, NO it is NOT a Disston one…

Photos when I can get some of the eetch to show up better.


----------



## Airframer

Time to put my money where the blade is on how well this saw does for dovetailing. These are some free hand practice cuts in 4/4 cherry.. all for under $30.










I also found a bonus use for the old handle. Makes for a very nice file handle 










And for your viewing pleasure..










Now I want the 6" and 10" version. A saw AND file handle for under $30? I'm in!


----------



## bandit571

Couple of looks at where this saw is at right now.









Them big old teeth are quite sharp! Plate isn't too bad, nice and straight. What etch I can find seems to be talking about: ......ARAN…....CAST…..

What saw has a Warranted cast steel across the top of the etch? This is a nice, skew back, 5ppi rip toothed saw.

As for the handle









A "Work in Progress"?? Will have to remove the tote (again) to finish cleaning the plate, but there wasn't any place for a medallion on it. Just three Brass bolts. About $4 for this saw….


----------



## BrandonW

Eric, that's a great idea, putting that old handle on the file! Glad that saw is working out for you!


----------



## Brit

Eric - You made a really nice job of that. I've seen a few saws where people have done the same thing and yours is one of the best I've seen.


----------



## Brit

*Saw Sharpening Video Update*

I'm about 75% of the way through the recording now. I record at weekends (chores, weather, neighbour's grandchildren, muscle cars, Harley Davidsons, helicopters, strimmers and lawnmowers permitting) and edit during the week in my hotel room.

I told myself that I had to stay off LJs and Woodnet until it was done, so that's why I haven't been around much. It is A LOT of work, but I'm learning so much along the way. There is nothing like videoing yourself doing something and watching it back. It's a very humbling experience let me tell you. )

Later saw dudes.


----------



## Airframer

Wow Brit, thank you!

I eagerly look forward to you video once finish!


----------



## donwilwol

yes Andy, we will alert the Oscar's they will have a new entry.


----------



## BrandonW

Can't wait, Andy. I know it will be wonderful!


----------



## Brit

Thanks guys. It is very frustrating at times. There was one scene I was recording at the weekend. First I did two takes because I forgot what I wanted to say. The third take was going really well and just as I thought it was in the can, my neighbour opened her back door and shouted to her husband "Ron - do you want a cup of tea?"

The air was blue. It took another two takes after that to get it done. LOL.


----------



## chrisstef

I would have responded "Only if there's Crumpets B!itch" and then simply carried on …. THAT would have made the video 

Seriously, I cant wait to see the final production Andy especially with all the work you're putting in so slouches like me can learn how to tune sharpen a saw. I thank you for all the hard work buddy.


----------



## mochoa

Whats a strimmer (String trimmer aka Weed Whacker? is my guess)? And what does it mean when the air is blue? See how ignorant we get to Britishness when your not around Andy.

Looking forward to the video Andy! I'm sure it will be worth the wait.


----------



## Tim457

Lol stef, that wouldn't be so good for neighborly relations but it sure would have been funny to watch.


----------



## Brit

Mauricio - Yeah weed whacker. The air was blue means I swore a lot.

Stef - It's a family show.


----------



## mochoa

Thanks for the clarification Andy! We miss you buddy. Tell the neighbor to shut her trap so you can finish your video.


----------



## AnthonyReed

+1 to missing you around here Andy.

Glad to hear you are learning more on your saw journey. Like the rest here, i'm looking forward to the video. I hope its production smooths out for you.


----------



## Mosquito

It's true… it is weird watching yourself on video working on stuff. I still enjoy it though lol

Can't wait to see the videos. I've got a saw plate with no teeth just waiting for it! :-D


----------



## DonBroussard

@Airframer-Beautiful job cutting off the hot dog and putting that very well shaped new tote. Better than factory made! I can appreciate the amount of rasping and filing you had to do too. i am make a new hand plane tote out of sapele and it does get pretty intense around those tight radii.

@Andy-Note to self: No video recording around tea time! Looking forward to the finished product. Are you planning to include something like this as part of the video? I'll bet you first looked for the medallion and at the tote on the saw right before you cringed!


----------



## RGtools

Andy. I agree with the Video both being hard and humbling. Want to do something similar for my toolchest when I post it, but the progress on filming is going slow (and editing is always worse).

Look forward to your work though.


----------



## ksSlim

Hang in there Andy, I can relate to the hotel room editing.
we're waiting for the real "how to do it with your saw" video.

Thanks for being here!!


----------



## WhoMe

Bandit, Whenever I have seen anything with warranted and cast steel on it, it is usually a Warranted Superior Cast steel logo. In my case it is a Jackson back saw that has that stamped into the back.

I think I have seen that on a lower end or early Disston saws but the skew back usually means it is made of better steel than the normal saws. At least that is what the Diston institute says.

Too bad you didn't have any of the medallions as that probably would have helped. 
Here is a link to a commentary on Warranted Superior saws that the opening is kind of funny.

This is off the Disstonian Institute regarding warranted superior medallions and a little history on the saws

I also found this one on etsy 
that has the WS medallion and also a shot of the rusty etch. but it has a skew back like your blade.

It will be interesting to see if you can bring out that etch.


----------



## planepassion

Andy I do the same thing. Work a project at home complete with pictures, and write up the blog post and edit the pics while on the road. Gives me something fun to look forward to at the end of the workday.

Helicopters? What helicopters? This is the first I've heard of that. Are you an RC flyer or a pilot?

For heaven's sake what have I done!? Don't bother answering this if it interferes with your saw sharpening video! Looking forward to it.


----------



## Brit

*Brad* - I live a mile from the beach and since last weekend was lovely and sunny and Monday was a public holiday, a lot of people went to the beach. That invariably means that you get the odd person who swims out too far and can't get back or a surfer gets hit on the head by their board and therefore the coastguard launch a helicopter to rescue them.


----------



## planepassion

Andy, a mile from the beach opens a whole new world of video shoot background possibilities. You could introduce a whole new genre of craft called beach woodworking. Talk about relaxing…

Helicopters are fascinating. I'm in the Phoenix area visiting family. Almost daily I see a Blackhawk flying about from some National Guard or Army base. Even rode in one myself years ago when my unit was training in Germany.


----------



## waho6o9

http://thesawblog.com/

Matt has some links for parts and such that some may find useful. 
HTH

One link has some fine eye candy: http://www.bontzsawworks.net/


----------



## chrisstef

This ones gonna need a good scrubbin but shes in great shape besides bein a lil dirty.

26" long and 4 3/8" of depth.


----------



## BrandonW

Stef, that will look nice, all cleaned up!

Waho, I've seen those Bontz saws and think they are just top quality-beautiful handles and what not. Personally though, I'm not a big fan of the curved saw plates. Am I alone here?


----------



## bandit571

Get a tube of Autosol, and some foil. Scrape the rust with a razor blade, dab the plate with some autosol polish. Wad up a baseball sized ball of foil. Scrub the "H" out of it. Foil will also clean off the leftover polishing goop. Then look at the plate, you just MIGHt see yourself in it…

From a tip over at SMC aka Neander Haven


----------



## AnthonyReed

Very nice Waho.

Are you fishing and rust hunting on the company dime, Stef? Lucky skunk.

Oh nice tip Bandit, i've not heard to use foil. Thanks!


----------



## need2boat

I find many of the newly designed saws a little over the top but I think the makers are just trying to push design or something.

I also have a good deal of replacement plate for backsaw if need be just pmail me I can tooth to most common sizes.

Joe


----------



## chrisstef

Good tip bandito. Ill give it a shot for sure. Itll be a while before i get to this one all though id like to pair it with my stanley miter box.


----------



## chrisstef

Nah tony. Im actually at some hippy coffee shop havin a sammich and some coffee cake. That saws been kickin around my office for a few months. But i have been known to bump into a lil rust on the clock from time to time.


----------



## TobyC

Look HERE=.

Toby


----------



## bandit571

Yep, that be the same tip I saw over at the Creek. Even the same pictures!

Now, how much is a tube of that stuff, and where to get it?

The foil is easy, walmart sells that all day long…


----------



## ksSlim

NAPA auto parts for autosol, Ace hdw for Flitz.
basically rubbing compound and solvent in one handy tube.
Autoslol on a leather wheel make a great buffer for plane iron and chisels.


----------



## mochoa

Nice! That autosol tip is money, I have a saw to try that on.


----------



## need2boat

That's interesting it's a common tip for polishing chrome. Smart thinking to try on saw plates.


----------



## AnthonyReed

Chrome too? Thanks Joe.


----------



## need2boat

yea years back I was into bicycles and used to restore old ones. It works really well when your dealing with slightly pitted chrome. back then I used regular turtle wax but these new compond/polishes might work better. I'll give a try like the others and see. ;-)

Joe


----------



## waho6o9

http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=67014&cat=1,43415,43439,67014










Good stuff, around $9.00 plus shipping. Get at least a couple
of tubes as you'll use it a lot.


----------



## AnthonyReed

Perfect Waho. I was trying to track some down. Thank you.


----------



## waho6o9

Glad to be of help Tony,

you're Welcome my friend.


----------



## racerglen

P.S. Autosol's not "new", been around since the 1920's unlike me
;-)


----------



## chrisstef

Brought home a $0.50 saw today. Langdon miter box saw for millers malls made by disston. 18" long and 3 5/8" of depth. Busted handle but a clean break and repairable. Even evidence of the etch being in good shape.


----------



## TobyC

Open handle mitre box saw….ya don't see many of those!

And not for that price!

Toby


----------



## BrandonW

Wow, nice score, Stef. I wonder if it was originally open-handled or if that part broke off. I'd probably make a new handle for it using the original one as a model.


----------



## waho6o9

Yeppers, great saw Stef!


----------



## chrisstef

Ya know Brandon there is some evidence of a break that would indicate a closed handle. Ill have to investigate further n post a few more pics.


----------



## chrisstef

Right again Magnum ….










Looks like it was a full handle.


----------



## TobyC

Oops! I missed that, although the bottom of the cheek did look a bit odd to me.

Toby


----------



## chrisstef

Ya know Toby it could be a small chunk just chipped out of that bottom cheek. Its kind of hard to tell if it was open or closed. I line the idea of it having an open handle. This saws seems like a perfect candidate for my first attempt at a saw handle. After i get some more work on the bench done.


----------



## CL810

Stef that saw may be a good length for your Stanley 150 miter box. I never did hear back from the tooltrip.com guy. Think I'll try him again.


----------



## TobyC

Look HERE #135

and HERE scroll down about half way and look at the mitre box saws.

and HERE look at the Disston (3 hole) Miterbox Saw handle scan.

Toby


----------



## planepassion

Christef, once you factor in the hours of pleasure restoring that saw will give you, plus the hours of use you get out of it (CL810's Stanley 150 pairing sounds really good,) you're cash-spent per hour of fun will be less than a penny! Man, you can't even walk into a movie theater with the family without being $40.00 in the hole for 1.75 hours of entertainment.

I'd encourage you to repair the handle, not just the split but to add a donor piece to complete the close-handled grip of the original. If you do some poking around you'll find some LJs who've posted blogs about their repairs.

Oh! Almost forgot. The Millers Falls, MASS stamped on the spine makes it an earlier model because, if memory serves, the company moved to Greenfield, MA… but I don't know the date.


----------



## TobyC

1875

HERE

Toby


----------



## CL810

Toby that link to the saw handles is pure solid GOLD! Thanks for posting.


----------



## chrisstef

Well damn. How do ya like that. Thanks for the slueth work fellas. Im pretty stoked to have this saw. Would the tote have been mahogany?

Cl810- a lil suttin like dis ….


----------



## chrisstef

"From 1872-1907, langdon used the spelling mitre …"

That narrows down the date of this saw with the prior knowledge of the 1875 move to a 32 year period. Thats amazing to me that its lasted this long. Suckers pin straight too.

Etch evidence …


----------



## TobyC

Yours is applewood, they changed to beech sometime in the 1930's.

Your saw is pre-1918, which is when they changed the shape of the handle.

Toby


----------



## TobyC

What kind of label screw does it have, can you get a good pic of it?

Toby


----------



## Wally331

After seeing a recent project where an LJ retrofitted his crown gents saw with a new handle, I was inspired to make my own aswell.



























I bought some padauk last weekend for the purpose of making an infill smoother, but I have enough for some more tools. I think it fits pretty well with this saw. At least a lot better than the old beech handle. The saw is a great neck "corsair" for a miter box.









I didn't exactly know how an open handle saw would look on a miter box, but I think it turned out pretty good. For some reason the saw is filed rip, is this normal on a miter box? I would think not…


----------



## OnlyJustME

It certainly looks like the shape of a lambs tongue split off of your handle Chrisstef. Check the top of the front bottom horn to see if there is split grain there too.


----------



## CL810

*Stef*, that a sweet, sweet pairing!

*Wally*, your handle looks great.

All you guys making handles are killing me! I've been doing some research and scheming but I just have too many things going on right to start.


----------



## Airframer

That came out great Wally! I do not envy you having to rasp away on that much Padauk! Your shop must look like the surface of Mars right now lol.


----------



## terryR

Stef, love the Langdon mitre saw! I'll give ya $20 for it as is… 

Just for a different thought…I would put all the pieces of that tote in a zip lock labelled 'Original', find a new piece of Applewood, and carve a new tote. One which copied the Original to the best of my abilities. The tote is clearly missing the sexy lamb's tongue…could be replaced…but matching the color of the old apple during finishing will suck.

Joe and a few others could pull it off…not me. I'd make a new beauty! No disrespect to the historical aspect…I just think we already got our money's worth from that piece of wood. I wouldn't consider a fresh Apple tote and sharp teeth to be disrespectful if done in a classic style! I think the original maker would be proud.

my 2 cents…


----------



## chrisstef

I dig what your sayin Terry. I may try and do both. Refurb the existing handle as well as remake a new one replicating the same vintage. Ive got some curly maple as well as some bubinga, both woyld make outstanding totes as far as im concerned. This saws going into the refurb pile bit will be the first one off the bench when time comes.


----------



## AnthonyReed

Nicely done Wally.

Congrats on yet another great score Stef.


----------



## GMatheson

Thought I would give the aluminum foil/Autosol method a try.










5 minutes later….


----------



## Don2Laughs

That looks good enough for the girls I go with ….. I ordered 2 tubes last Friday.

Thanks for posting


----------



## mochoa

Great handle Wally! (Thats what she said)

Man I need to get me some Autosol!


----------



## grfrazee

I've been in the process of converting a Disston miter saw into two stubby tenon saws. By the end of Sunday, this is where I left off:










Need to see if anywhere local sells Autosol, otherwise it'll be some sort of rust remover and sandpaper for me.


----------



## GMatheson

Here is the finished saw cleaned with the Autosol/foil










More of the pics can be seen on my blog


----------



## AnthonyReed

I like it Gmath. Nice work!


----------



## TobyC

Very nice! Please tell me you didn't put the hang hole in it.

Toby


----------



## CL810

Brad posted this pic on the mitre box of your dreams thread. Post #167.


----------



## GMatheson

Nope. That hole wasn't me but for $5 I guess I can pretend the hole isn't there.


----------



## TobyC

CL810,

The ones in the spine of a mitre box saw are supposed to be there, the one on Greg's saw was put there by a user to hang it on a nail or something, but thanks.

Toby


----------



## CL810

Oh, I only saw the hole in his first photo not the second.


----------



## TobyC

Greg,

That saw looks good! The hole and especially the lettering on the handle just give it character! What does it say anyway?

Toby


----------



## GMatheson

Well the original owner T. Smylie stamped his name on the handle 6 times and I added my initials and the year on the grip. GDM2013. Just so whoever owns the saw 100 years from now will have a little more history of who owned it before


----------



## TobyC

Cool, I like the look.

Toby


----------



## terryR

GMath, nice restore! I like the look of the old tote a lot!

Bad Axe, Bad Axe, Bad Axe…

Sorry, but I just got the news my new 16" Tenon Saw shipped today after 4 months of waiting. Gonna camp out down next to the mailbox for a few days…


----------



## BrandonW

Congrats, Terry. Those are some sweet saws-- too bad you had to wait that long, but I'm sure you'll enjoy using it.


----------



## chrisstef

Bad axe in the mail is well worth setting up a tent out front. Little hibachi action, a portable radio, and a case of beers …. im in!


----------



## donwilwol

I'd tent out there to. Don't want that package thrown on the ground either!!


----------



## chrisstef

Grrr …. Napa, PepBoys and Autozone …. no Autosol. Son of a ….

I will find you elusive autosol.


----------



## AnthonyReed

Lee Valley has it here or here.

Waho told you that a week ago.


----------



## chrisstef

But I want it NOW lol. I actually figured that it would be available locally but alas here I am b!tchin and moanin about not finding it. That's for the link Tony.


----------



## ksSlim

http://www.autosol.com/Default.asp

autosol is a basic "chrome polish", micro-grit in a solvent base.

Might try a " lens restoration kit" available @ most auto stores.

could be a difference, but worth a try.


----------



## TobyC

A lot has been added HERE people are trying different things and posting their results.

Toby


----------



## chrisstef

Good info Toby. The one post I thought was really worth while was the one using the green compound, a bit of mineral oil, and tin foil. I might try that method soon just because ive got all that stuff on hand in the shop.


----------



## donwilwol

I liked the water and foil idea. It might be worth a try!!


----------



## AnthonyReed

Thank you Toby.


----------



## RGtools

I know I might take crap for this, but I respectully would like advice on the following piece of gear mostly for resaw.

Grizzly Bandsaw

I have scoured the internet looking for a bad review on this saw, and I can find one.


----------



## AnthonyReed

I just teared-up a little.


----------



## BrandonW

Ryan, I own a cheap Ridgid BS and so I can't comment on the Grizzly model, but have you looked at the Rikons? Same resaw capacity, but a bit cheaper: http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/rikon-16-bandsaw.aspx

I won't give you crap at all, I can't imagine doing a lot of what I do without a bandsaw.


----------



## chrisstef

Ditto what Brandon said. Ive got an older g1019 grizzly bandsaw and I like it, like it a lot.


----------



## mochoa

I have a grizzly 14" G5505 It works fine, I'm the third owner and the last owner was a professional cabinet shop. Still running strong. And now that I figured out how to tune it up it cuts pretty damn straight.


----------



## terryR

Ryan, I have a Grizzly 14" G0457…love it! Best saw in my shop! Just so versatile, it's my go-to saw…had it for almost 2 years now…no probs. Just don't get Grizzly saw blades, IMO. I run a 3/4" WoodSlicer blade for super straight cuts!


----------



## widdle

Rg i have that you have pictured..I like it…


----------



## RGtools

Tears of joy Tony? Don't worry I won't go full Norm on you, in fact I sold my table saw recently because I just don't use it. I just feel that for the work I do and the shop space I have a bandsaw would help a lot…that and I have no local buds to help with a pit-saw.

Thanks for the feedback. The Rikon is another contender, but with the price of shipping it ends up being about the same as the Grizzly. The good news is I am not in too much of a hurry. I can save, do my research and get what I want. In the mean time (and even after). There will be plenty of handsaw action. Just to prove it I will share my most ridiculous resaw:










Needed a new tenon cheek after a bad cut, used the cheek off-cut to get it done.

Edit, it's wedged on purpose.


----------



## OnlyJustME

Ahhh the ol' pit saw. Are you a top or bottom?


----------



## Don2Laughs

I bought the Grizz GO555 nine years ago and it has performed perfectly using Timberwolf blades. I'm faithful to use the tension release. Couldn't ask for a better bandsaw. I bought the 6" riser with it and modified the fence to accommodate resaw fence. All I've done to it is put new neoprene tires on it and cool block guides. The new GO555 looks to be even better.

good luck


----------



## Brit

Ryan - That is a photo from an obcessive sawyer for sure. I like it!


----------



## RGtools

OJM, the problem is I'm always on my own.


----------



## AnthonyReed

So you're saying you are a switch?

I wish i would have known you were looking for a saw Ryan, at an estate sell a few weeks ago there was a 18" band saw (i did not see the make) with a Baldor motor that they were asking $200 for. I could have stored it until you sacked up and drove down to get it.


----------



## RGtools

^ignorance would have been bliss Tony. But the thought is appreciated.


----------



## mochoa

Ryan, just throwing ideas out there, just talking crazy… But what about buying two saws (maybe used) and have one set up for resawing and one set up for curves?


----------



## mochoa

dup.


----------



## bandit571

Experiment going on today:

Turtle Wax Metal polish ( $2.75 @ Walmart) some 0000 steel wool vs a rusty old saw plate.

Film @ 1800 hrs….


----------



## BrandonW

No aluminum foil for you, Bandit?


----------



## bandit571

I would have to go out and BUY some, first…


----------



## mochoa

What is the power of aluminum foil? Is it that the soft metal gets imbedded with the abrasives?


----------



## waho6o9

Good question Mauricio.

Aluminum oxide perhaps?


----------



## Mosquito

The last saw plate I used I just sprinkled it with baking soda, poured some lemon juice on it, scrubbed with a soft bristle brush (nylon bristles, I believe) and then some steel wool. Worked pretty well. Kept enough of the patina to make it fit the look I like, but got rid of all the rust and brought back some of the etch


----------



## TobyC

Mauricio,

Read THIS.

tOBY


----------



## mochoa

Nice, good read Toby.


----------



## RGtools

Barely have the room for the one saw.

I have been doing enough reading to feel comfortable that I could pick one or two blades that would accomplish both needs. Also, odds are if I have my bandsaw set up for ripping, I will have my bowsaw set up for curves…so I think I already would have the two saw solution.


----------



## bandit571

Teaser









Just steel wool and then a wipe down with a paper towel….









And a few drops from that green bottle ….


----------



## GMatheson

Here is another 14" backsaw the wife brought home from auction. It's an S. Biggin & Sons saw from between 1852-1856 (according to the interweb)

*Before*










*After*



















I used that concoction to clean the wood posted a while ago somewhere on the site

1 part oil
1 part Murphy's oil soap
2 parts wax

It did a great job cleaning the handle except on the front where it looks like the saw got too close to the fire at one point. I thought about sanding it away but decided to keep the history.

Here is a pic of my last two saw restos


----------



## chrisstef

Looks really solid Greg. Ive got a hankerin for backsaws lately. How'd you clean the plate?


----------



## GMatheson

Aluminum foil/windex for the heavy cleaning then used the autosol to shine it up a bit


----------



## chrisstef

Hmmmmm

I literally just gave a quick run over a saw with aluminum foil and water. My results were slightly less appealing.

How long of a scrub did ya give her?
What kind of pressure? 
Did you wad up the foil or fold it flat? 
Swirling motion or across the plate?
Were you gentle around the etch?


----------



## BrandonW

Nice restoration work, there, Greg!


----------



## CL810

Greg, those are some handsome saws - great work!


----------



## roman

some day soon my saws will be up for auction

my goal, is to make that day, as far away as possible


----------



## GMatheson

Chrisstef I scrubbed about half an hour I think with fairly heavy pressure to start ending with a little lighter pressure. The foil was wadded up and I kept rotating it so that it was clean foil rubbing on the plate. I mostly rubbed the plate lengthwise and I haven't had an etch on either saw.


----------



## planepassion

Greg, that S. Biggin & Sons saw is a beauty, just love that handle. Bet it feels well in the hand. Must say, your wife did you a solid for sure.


----------



## Tim457

Nice work greg that looks great, and keep your wife around for sure if she keeps finding and bringing home things like that for you. Of course I did get a nice box from highland woodworking for my birthday.


----------



## terryR

Nice looking restoration, Greg. +1 that your wife is a keeper! 

Here's one I'm still hiding from my wife…been 3 days and counting…









16" Tenon Saw filed rip at 11 ppi, Texas Mesquite tote (looks much better in person!), Black Pearl Nickel Plated Steel hardware, and I think a Cherry tooth guard colored to match the Mesquite.

Feels heavy and solid. Workmanship is A++. Four nibs! Wow. I could stare at it for an hour!

Only problem so far…I'm not sure I can bring myself to scratch it in use. The damn Thing cost 3 times as much as my first table saw! And I just don't wanna ruin that pretty etch. Jeez, I'm not worthy of such a nice tool…who should I mail it to?


----------



## racerglen

Terry, pick me ! pick meeeeee ! ;-)
WOWSERS..That is one sweet looking piece. No wonder
you have it on the artists easle display !


----------



## donwilwol

I think you should send it to me and ley me stare at it a while too while you make up your mind Terry.


----------



## TobyC

Just leave it outside and let it get weathered and rusty. Then your wife won't know it's new, and you won't be afraid to use it.

Toby


----------



## chrisstef

Greg, much appreciated on the info. I dunno why i get so timid when working on saws but i get all sally pants on it afraid to do any damage.

Terry - that post there … welll … ya know … just all right


----------



## chrisstef

Greg, much appreciated on the info. I dunno why i get so timid when working on saws but i get all sally pants on it afraid to do any damage.

Terry - that post there … welll … ya know … just all right


----------



## Wally331

Estate sale special, marked down to 1$








This was after I had sanded some of the rust off already as you can see by the newspaper under it. I still couldn't see any etch and was wondering if there was one at all.

After a solid 2 hours of sanding the plate, and polishing up some screws, she came together pretty nice, I still need to sharpen though. I think its a 7 pt. crosscut, Disston, not sure the type though, the etch was too faded.


















I would be willing to sell for I dunno, 30 bucks? make me an offer . I need money for some steel to make an infill smoother.


----------



## Brit

You might have warned us of your impending tool gloat. Luckily, my bib was to hand.


----------



## AnthonyReed

So very nice Terry. Congratulations! Stunning.


----------



## terryR

LOL…

When I showed that photo to Mark Harrell today (guy who made the saw), He thanked me for my kind appraisal of the tool, expressed hope that we could do business again, blah, blah…Then told me to get it off that easle and "Just use the damn saw, buddy!!!" 

maybe tomorrow…supposed to be in the lower 90's outside…that means lower 90's for the shop. Should I continue the quest for another marking gauge…or attempt Andy-like rips only 2mm apart and full blade depth in Sapele?


----------



## chrisstef

I for one Terry am dying to see it rip. Adios easel, hello hardwood.


----------



## donwilwol

let 'er rip Terry!


----------



## OnlyJustME

rip it good


----------



## chrisstef

Huge lol ^


----------



## terryR

Matt said rip it…
...rip it good…

I'm sure I still have that DEVO album somewhere!


----------



## mochoa

Sweet saw Terry!

Has anyone had to resharpend their Veritas Rip Carcass saws yet? I think I'm getting to the moment of truth…. It needs a sharpening.


----------



## Brit

Marking gauges? Who needs 'em? Use the force Terry.

I'm down to full depth rips 1mm apart now, but I don't like to brag. )


----------



## terryR

OK, I feel strong with The Force today…Got my inspirational photos ready on my iPad…









"Don't force the saw, let the teeth do the work…"










"Yes…yes…feel the energy flow through you! Concentrate…"


----------



## chrisstef

"Flow through you the energy must" (Yoda voice)


----------



## racerglen

Is that a Mace, or are you just glad to see us Andy ?


----------



## Brit

Just glad to see you Glen. )

Go for it Terry, the saw can take it.


----------



## mochoa

That picture of Andy is an instant classic!


----------



## mochoa

Andy that pic should be your avatar if you ask me.


----------



## Brit

Far too ostentatious if you ask me. People would think I had ideas above my station.


----------



## donwilwol

People would think I had ideas above my station

Just put a saw (or a couple) on your lap. That adds the required dimension.


----------



## mochoa

Yeah! A saw in the hand would be nice. Gangsta' woodworking style.

I bet Andy still has that thrown and uses it at the dinner table.


----------



## chrisstef

Uhmm a throne at the dinner table Maur …. apparently Mrs. Andy has some cooking that "goes right through him" huh?


----------



## Brit

I do still have that throne. In fact Father Christmas sat in it on his horse drawn carriage at our annual charity Christmas carnival.


----------



## terryR

Yeah, I was sure that photo of Andy was an immediate classic, so I had to save it. The look on His face is priceless…

OK. Mr. Bad Axe and I had a small talk this morning. Mostly me apologizing for the lack of skills the saw was about to feel. But, I got a great photo!










This shows exactly what happens every time I attempt to cut a straight line. Actually, I suppose my cuts are straight, but I always veer off to the right about 3 degrees at the end of the cut. Very consistently.

I've got my shoulder close to my body, not over gripping the saw, have my right foot planted sideways behind me. But, time after time, I get these results…cherry, oak, walnut…

RE: the saw…it cuts like a dream. starts easily and keeps going without complaint. leaves a rough finish on this open grained walnut, but it's 11ppi, and at 16" in length, probably won't see much small joinery anyway. This is a bench and table maker! I love it already!!!


----------



## Brit

Terry - There's no hope for you I'm afraid. I'll PM you my address, so you won't be constantly reminded of your failure. I'll even pay the postage.


----------



## BrandonW

I'll even pay the postage.

Andy is a paragon of generosity.

Terry, just tilt the board 3 degrees.


----------



## Mosquito

shipping to MN is a lot easier…


----------



## Brit

"...just tilt the board 3 degrees"

Brandon how can you joke about such a serious matter?

Terry - just a thought, are you sure your legs are the same length?


----------



## chrisstef

Andy - if that pic is a little too much you could always use the photo from your last holiday at the beach.


----------



## Brit

Stef - You had me worried there mate, but I took a second look and it definitely isn't me. My towel is blue.


----------



## planepassion

Andy, been meaning to post this for ages. Thought of you for obvious reasons.










Also, I have to ask, is the swimsuit in #5253 Euro-fashion appropriate?


----------



## Brit

I wouldn't know Brad, but I wish he'd close his legs.

I live about a mile from the beach, but I hate going there in the summer. Too crowded, too much noise, too hot. I like going to the beach in October when there's just me and perhaps the odd person walking their dog. There's nothing I like more than picking up a few flints off the beach and skimming them across the waves as they break on the shore. With each throw, I find myself saying "There goes another one Terry won't get to knap into an arrowhead." )


----------



## terryR

Ooohhh, what a tough crowd today!
LOL

Maybe I'll measure my legs…


----------



## Brit

Terry - Those cuts aren't too bad really. I think your problem is that on the back stroke, your elbow is kicking out slightly.


----------



## terryR

Thanks, Andy. I'll focus on that!

And slowing down till I improve…


----------



## DaddyZ

2 out of 4 seasons Santa & a Lobster - Not Bad - Nice Cuts there TerryR


----------



## Wally331

I have a question about saw sharpening. Why do we still use files for the final sharpening of a saw, you would never use a file to sharpen your chisels or a plane iron, which is essentially what a sawtooth is.

I figure with the tech we have today, they could make like a dmt triangle file, with very very fine grits, and then once you have shaped your teeth with a file, you could clean them up with the finer grits. I think this could make saws cut a lot faster and easier.

Anyways, has anyone here made their own backsaw? I have a pretty cheap ripsaw that I got for a buck which has good steel, but there's some pitting on parts so only a portion of it is useable. I'm thinking I'm going to cut out a rectangle, refile smaller teeth on it, and use a laminate a brass back, do you think that 3/32 thick on either side is stiff enough for a brass back?


----------



## OnlyJustME

Wally, Paul Sellers actually uses a small diamond stone to clean up after filing his saw teeth.


----------



## mochoa

OJM, correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think P.S. uses those diamond paddles for clean up, he uses them to put a small micro bevel on the back of the tooth for durability. Or are you talking about using the stone on the side of the teeth for clean up?


----------



## OnlyJustME

He uses them on the teeth. might be a back bevel for durability. been a while since i saw the video. Either way he does use a diamond on it. just not for initial sharpening.


----------



## chrisstef

Scooped up some blue magic metal polish … just read the ingredients if you will … contains silicone. Does Autosol contain silicone? Regardless im gonna try it out on a busted up saw plate and ill go from there.


----------



## bandit571

Turtle wax metal polish with a stool wool rub









Looking a little better than before?









Didn't have a foil in the house, may try it at a later date…


----------



## chrisstef

Good stuff bandito.


----------



## bhog

Hey y'all ,
Snatched this guy earlier for $4.45


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Pictures, B!


----------



## bhog

lol I know got tired of waiting for phone to load,aborted mission


















Its a Woodrough and McParlin


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Aw, that's Sweeet! Honey holes for old tools in Mt Vernon??


----------



## OnlyJustME

Sweet!!!! 
I just saw a fully restored one of them sell for over $100 on ebay.


----------



## BrandonW

Nice score, Bhog. You suck. Maybe you can get Bandit to clean it with this stool wool rub!


----------



## AnthonyReed

Very nice Bhog. Congrats man.


----------



## chrisstef

A triumphant return Hog.

Lol brandon. Ive heard of $hittin bricks but wool is new to me.


----------



## bhog

Smitt ,that little store in New Minden.Not far from both of us.
Thanks guys.
And stool wool rub sounds like something Stef does in the bathroom with his Playgirl collection.Dirty girl.


----------



## TobyC

That's a fairly rare and valuable saw, be gentle!

And it's in great shape.

You double suck!

Toby


----------



## chrisstef

Smitty - if you want Hog to pick you up so you can rust hunt together he can do that. That Prius gets 55 miles to the gallon.


----------



## StumpyNubs

I picked up an old back saw today, wonder if you guys could help me find some history. It appears to be an early Armitage 16". The brass spine is marked "W.H.Armitage" in an arc over the "Sheffield" stamp. I can't find much on dating Armitage saws by the logos. The handle is closed and has three old style split nuts, no medallion.

Al with most back saws, there is text to the right and left of the logo (I think). There is no longer any trace of the part to the left of the logo, but the word to the right appears to be "IMPROVED".

Please enjoy this low quality web-cam photo of the handle. You'll notice that the handle is broken at the bottom making it look like it's an open design. But is was originally closed. Also the top leading edge, where it overlaps the blade spine, is chipped off. But the overall shape, nib and such, may help dating.


----------



## OnlyJustME

I think that job is best left to the super sleuths Andy and Toby. I've never seen or heard of Armitage.


----------



## StumpyNubs

I do know that William Henry Armitage was operating in Sheffield during the first half of the 1800's, as was Thomas Armitage. I have seen some Armitage saws from later as well. But none with this stamp or handle design. There is very little to be found via Google, I'm afraid.


----------



## TobyC

Well….
I know they were in business from at least 1849 until at least 1852.
Also there was "PACEY & ARMITAGE" in 1852 at the same address.

Toby


----------



## TobyC

I found this…

ARMITAGE, William Henry 1847 1849
89 Harvest Lane [1847]
Burnt-Tree Lane [1849]
PACEY & ARMITAGE 1852 1855
31 Burnt-Tree Lane
(John Pacey & William Henry Armitage)
ARMITAGE, William Henry 1856 1867
Vesuvius Works, 59 Henry Street, Portmahon
ARMITAGE & CO., William Henry 1876 1901
Vesuvius Works, 59 Henry Street, Portmahon
(succeeded by Sanderson Bros. & Newbould by 1910)

Here.

So your saw is older than 1876.

Toby


----------



## StumpyNubs

I wonder if anybody has seen the "Improved" stamp on a saw before. It's in the same place as many saws have "Warranted Superior" I don't know what the first word in this stamp was. "_ Improved"


----------



## chrisstef

If yester years marketing was anything like todays Stump, the first words should be "New and"


----------



## Willeh

Hey guys… Mark over at Bad Axe Toolworks just posted this great article about retensioning a back saw.. Very informative for those interested in restoring old backsaws:

http://www.badaxetoolworks.com/retension-a-backsaw.html


----------



## bhog

I will be gentle with it.A little clean up but nothing to invasive,I plan to use it.

Prius,not.If I can keep it in the low cam I can get 28-30 mpg,so ya Ill come get ya Smitt.


----------



## chrisstef

Just got a text from Hog. His ride broke down on his way to get Smitty. Hog, forever being resourceful, got his car to a shop where they could fix it and struck a deal with one of the locals. A quick trip to the hourly rate hotel the local watched Hog drive away on his moped. He finally made it to pick up Smitty.

Nothin will stop those boys from rescuing old tools.


----------



## bhog

^ Phenomenal.


----------



## waho6o9

U da Man Hog!

Thanks for checking in every now and again.


----------



## mochoa

Stef, smack talk skills together with his search-fu make him a formidable foe.


----------



## OnlyJustME

I just wonder how long chrisstef had that picture in his wallet.


----------



## Mosquito

had?


----------



## Dozuki31

Question for all the saw experts out there. I've picked up a few hand saws recently, and I just wanted to check if they have any collectible value, before I go ahead and restore them.

The first one is this Robert Sorby and Sons saw. It has a kangaroo medallion.



















The second one is what I think is a dovetail saw, made by C.Nurse & Co.



















The last one is a Richard Ibbotson backsaw. The other side of the handle on this guy, is in pretty rough shape.



















If they don't hold a lot of collectible value, then i will go ahead and restore them.


----------



## Brit

Dozuki31 - Wonderful saws you've acquired. They don't have any real collector's value, but should all make great users. I particularly like the Sorby. It doesn't look like it has ever been sharpened. Congrats.


----------



## Brit

*StumpyNubs* - I 've just posted a load of information I found out about W. H. Armitage in my blog. Some of my best detective work yet if I do say so myself. )


----------



## Bertha

I support both saws and all other great things.
.


----------



## Brit

Al old buddy, long time no talk. That is one disturbing photo!


----------



## bandit571

But, which one IS Al?


----------



## planepassion

I read a great article about a Disston backsaw restore. What caught my eye about this particular one was that Ethan Sincox blued the steel spine. And it looks great.

My question is, did the original backsaws come with blued spines? Which have over the years faded away?


----------



## Brit

Some did Brad. Disston No.4 backsaws had blued spines. The No.5 was the brass-backed version.


----------



## chrisstef

Gonna be a whole lotta kerfin goin on. Gettin gear ready. Disston warrented superior from my grandfather.


----------



## RGtools

^ wonderful shot. The tallow box in the background is a strong touch.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Is $150 for a 'good+' condition Disston No.99 about right?


----------



## Wally331

beautiful saw crissteff, love the dovetail grease pot too.

On another note, how the hell do you guys sand your saw handles? I haven't found a half decent way yet. For the course work I have cut up old sanding belts and that works great. How high of grits do they sell sanding belts though? Is it worth it to get like 220 grit belt for making several saw handles?


----------



## OnlyJustME

Wally i use a wood turners sanding pack.










You can get the replacement packs for just the lower grits. no need to go higher than 240. I use them since i already had it for my lathe work and the thinner strips work well on the totes.
Another source would be Industrial Abrasives for even more variety.


----------



## waho6o9

Cool tip OJM, thanks.


----------



## Brit

That's a wonderful saw Stef and the fact that it belonged to your grandfather makes it even better. Look like he really looked after that one.


----------



## racerglen

Beauty Stef and I'm with Andy on the history aspect.

Wally, one of the ways I sand handles is with a sanding bow, haven't got any pictures but it uses a narrow sanding belt tensioned by the bow and can go around corners quite easily. I have a commercial version from Lee Valley bought years ago, but they're easily made as well.


----------



## chrisstef

Thanks fellas. Its certainly my favorite saw due to its liniage. I gave it a good cleaning a few years ago, actually, now that i think about it, its really one of the catalysts that got me hooked on vintage tools. The grease box was given to me by bhog. It rocks.


----------



## terryR

Stef, that's a lovely saw! +100 on the worth since it belonged to your grandpa…I'm certain he'd be overjoyed to see you using it again!!!

Smitty, is that 99 pro sharp? If it's in good+ condition and sharp, I'd give $150 for it, especially filed cross…too many rips in my shop now…Would love to see a photo when you bring it home. 

Wally, you can also use double sided tape to attach any sandpaper to round dowels, flat cut offs, triangular shaped pieces of wood, etc. These work great for getting into small areas, plus give ya a handle to hold on to.


----------



## waho6o9

Great patina on your cherished saw Stef! Granpa's smiling.

Hog makes a mighty fine tallow box.

I'll have to look into a sanding bow as I've haven't heard of it before, 
thanks Glenn for that tidbit.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Stef, that's strong stuff re: G-pa's saw. Bery nice.

Terry, I passed. It was good+, but I decided I didn't need another saw. Oh, well. It was a beaut, though. Figures it's the one that caught my eye; the others in the box probably were $10… lol


----------



## Wally331

Here's another saw restore of mine. Once again, estate sale special 1$ An identical saw to the Disston I showed earlier, although this is a no-name warranted superior, and had an even uglier handle.

I forgot the before picture, but it was in the same condition as this:









It took about an hour of sanding to get it to this state, and another 4 or 5 to make the new handle.




































She's a heck of a lot nicer lookin' that that old handle. I'd be willing to make custom saw handles for any saw and ship them to people. I work cheap too


----------



## chrisstef

I might have to take you up on your first commissioned handle build Wally. That langdon miter box saw i posted recently needs a new handle and time aint exactly on my side. Shoot me a PM and we can hammer out the details.


----------



## OnlyJustME

Chrisstef, that's supposed to be your first project on the new bench! Everybody is outsourcing these days. lol

Nice job on the tote Wally. Is that cherry?


----------



## chrisstef

Outsourcing nah, just offering up a little experience on my dime to Wally


----------



## TobyC

Wally331, if those are Disstons they are very late. In other words HK Porter or Sandvik.

Toby


----------



## bhog

Another cool little saw,this one a gents.I don't know much about it.


----------



## chrisstef

Cool little saw there B. whats the story behind it?


----------



## terryR

Wally, nice tote! The lamb's tongue is sweet. In 4 or 5 hours…jeez! That's quick. What's the wood?


----------



## planepassion

Wally, that's some amazing handle creation work you posted. I would never have touched the saw because of the original handle-even for $1.00! My saw till is overflowing so I've been passing on saws unless they have a medallion that places them in the 19th century.

I'm amazed at how your new handle completely changed the character of the tool in a very nice way. No doubt the steel is excellent so you now have a really cool saw for a buck. Well done.


----------



## bhog

I came across it while packing yesterday.I cannot remember when I got it or where.


----------



## CL810

+1 to Brad's comments. Waaayy cool handles!


----------



## Wally331

Thanks everyone for the kind comments. The tote is walnut, although the pictures really cause it to look pretty light like cherry. I sharpened her up today, sweet cutter, I think she's a keeper.


----------



## Brit

Well the weather over the weekend was good to me and my long awaited saw sharpening video is '*in the can*'.

It is 2 hours 16 minutes of saw sharpening goodness in full HD. Filmed over the course of 2 months, it took 9 hours to render the video and 10 hours to upload to YouTube. I will watch it on the train going in to London tomorrow morning and all being well (please God), I will make the video public tomorrow night and post the details on my Saw Talk blog tomorrow evening.

I hope you guys find it useful.


----------



## chrisstef

Yes Andy! Yes! Yes! Yes!

Hope all goes well with the first viewing. Ill be the first to thank you ahead of time for all of your seriously hard work. Im looking forward to it.


----------



## OnlyJustME

Easy Chrisstef. We all know what happens when you get too excited.

That's awesome Andy. Can't wait to see it. Thank you for all the long hours put into making this video. I'm sure it will be so much more useful than you think it will. So much easier to learn it by watching some one do it than reading an article and looking at stills.


----------



## planepassion

Three cheers for Andy!

Hip, hip…..HOORAY!
Hip, hip…..HOORAY!
Hip, hip…..HOORAY!

I'm really excited about this. Looking forward to taking my sharpening to a new level. Thank you Andy for putting in the long hours to make this happen.


----------



## DonBroussard

Alright, guys/gals. We've been notified that Andy's soon-to-be award winning video is coming very soon. Get your used saws bought now before the used saw market dries up.

Andy-Looking forward to seeing the fruits of your labor! I'm sure it will be outstanding, as usual.


----------



## Wally331

I bought this beautiful Atkins saw at an antique store, only 10$ Not bad..


















Really nice carved handle, too bad I already have a crosscut saw, this ones going up for sale.


----------



## OnlyJustME

you only have 1 crosscut saw?


----------



## mochoa

Alright Andy! Cant wait, I have a saw ready for some love.


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## BrandonW

Looking forward to it, Andy.


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## chrisstef

Yea Wally I say you hang on to that one and add it to the collection. I was young once and thought I only needed one of everything  Two is soo much more hoss. PM coming your way on the saw handle.


----------



## waho6o9

Great news Andy!

Thank you for your efforts, they are appreciated.

Nice Atkins crosscut Wally. Do as you please, but you might want to reconsider
and heed Stef's friendly advice. She's a keeper.


----------



## Brit

I think I spoke too soon, because the upload failed. ) I know why it failed and have put it right, but the video won't be available tonight after all I'm afraid as I'll have to upload it again (10 hours). I'll get it to you as soon as I can.


----------



## chrisstef

Take your time Andy. Ive gotta make some bangers and mash before im ready to watch any way


----------



## DonBroussard

Think I'll have a Guinness at room temperature in honor of Andy, tonight and again when I watch the video.


----------



## Mosquito

I look forward to it Andy. Is it all one long video, or is it broken up into multiple parts?


----------



## waho6o9

Not a problem Andy, take your time and enjoy a break along the way.

Any thing worth doing is worth doing twice.


----------



## Brit

It is all one video Mos and there won't be any adverts to contend with either.

Mmmmm Guinness, sounds good Don.


----------



## Brit

Waho6o9 - I don't mind the doing, it's the waiting I can't stand. )


----------



## racerglen

Andy..Only if room temperature is below 10' C or less..
;-)


----------



## terryR

Andy, awesome news! Wait…2 HOURS of video? Oh my goodness…our satellite will never let me download that many bytes. 

Any plans or means to place the video on DVD? I'd pay any price you ask for a copy in the post…and I bet a few others would, too! Ummm…signed, please.


----------



## chrisstef

Question for ya fellas …. I was planning on using my grandfathers Disston tenon saw posted above for some kerfing on the workbench but ran into a snag here.

I start cross cutting with it and as soon as I get below the tooth line of the saw it really binds up on me. Its a fairly straight saw, around 10 ppi, and the only way I can get through the cuts is to wax the daylights out of the plate. When I get about 1/2 way into the plate it tends to ease up and cut a lot better.

Does it just need a good sharpening? A little bit of set?


----------



## grfrazee

@chrisstef, when you say "fairly straight," how straight are you talking? Even a little bit of wobble in the saw plate (for thinner saws, at least) will tend to bind quite a bit in my experience. Maybe you need to retension the saw?


----------



## donwilwol

I'd say A little bit of set

Although a good sharpening never hurts either.


----------



## chrisstef

grfreeze - im talking 1/32 - 1/16 out of straight. It may need to be tensioned again im not sure. I guess ill give it a good sharpening and we will go from there.


----------



## donwilwol

I'm not sure why, like I need another saw to clean up, but this one should be easy. I nice thumbhole disston rip. Just called my name. If anyone has an extra cross cut similar, I'd be up for a trade. (I already have a thumbhole rip)


----------



## BrandonW

If you're interested in selling it, let me know. I do have some cross-cuts, but they're not as nice as that one.


----------



## donwilwol

Some help from you guys that follow the saw prices. I've looked up the prices on the 28" thumbhole rip pictured above. They seem to range from $40 to over $300. What makes it a $40 saw, and what make it a $300 saw?


----------



## OnlyJustME

well if it is restored by secondchance saws it makes it a $300 saw.


----------



## BrandonW

List it on ebay for a buy-it-now price of $300 and see what happens.


----------



## terryR

Don, IMO, some of that pricing could be inflated due to bidding egos, I'm sure you know. I've been searching eBay all afternoon for a saw…and do so regularly. As soon as any item has more than 5 or 6 bids, I drop out, and look cheaper.

To me, some of the worth of a saw, really comes from the seller. I mean, a saw from Joe is guaranteed to have a perfectly straight plate, and all teeth working together. One from Paul's Vintage Shack…ummm…I don't know Paul.


----------



## Wally331

I snatched these two up on ebay, 24 dollars and free shipping , only 2 bids. The miter saw I have some plans for, making two 12 inch tenon saws with nice new handles, and the smaller 12 inch saw, I'll just restore that. I'm going to see if i can buy some autosol, those other restores turned out pretty nice.









Also picked up this disston D-23 lightweight at an estate sale, missing one nut, I think I'm going to use it as a parts saw. I may rehandle it though if i can get ahold of some cheap sawnuts.









I think I'm more addicted to saws then planes now, I never would have imagined


----------



## Brit

*Terry* - See if you can view the online version and if that works out for you, fine. If not, I'm sure I can cut a few double DVDs and ship them.

*Chrisstef* - 1/32" to 1/16" is too much. When you think about it, a tenon saw would normally only have about .003 to .0035" of set, so even 1/32" out of straight is huge in comparison. So what do you do about it? Well half of the backsaws I bought and restored had a wave in the plate. Some were only slight like yours and some were more pronounced. It is a common problem that takes 5 minutes to fix. However, before you attempt to fix a wave in a plate, you should take a 12" set square and put the straight edge against the plate where the plate goes into the back. Do this on both sides of the plate. Either the plate will be perfectly straight on both sides or it will be concave on one side and convex on the other. If it is the latter, then the back or spine itself is slightly bent and you need to straighten that before rectifying the wave in the plate. Again, this is a 5 minute job and I detail how to do it in my Saw Talk blog here or alternatively here. Yet another approach would be to gradually tighten a clamp on the spine instead of hitting it with a deadblow mallet. My favourite method is the blocks of wood and a deadblow mallet. Just sneak up on the right amount of force and hit it in the right place. After each blow, put the straight edge against the plate and see how you're doing.

With the back straight, you can sort out the wave. Only when the spine and the plate are straight should you consider setting and sharpening the teeth, otherwise you won't get the full benefit of either.


----------



## chrisstef

Excellent advice Andy. I appreciate that immensely. Its obviously a saw that I cherish and having it not do what its supposed to do frosts my ass lol. Im very happy to know that its a quick fix. With all the deep cutting ill have on my bench build im going to get on this one ASAP.


----------



## terryR

Thanks, Andy! You da' man! And a big THANKS for your time and effort to create the Epic Saw Talk video! Too bad your blogs can't be aired on BBC TV or somewhere…Darn! We don't have a TV signal anyway…

I'm pretty sure that now I own this group's *ugliest* saw till…built a simple pine shelf a few days ago. But, at least, I don't have vintage saws on the drill press table, the small bandsaw, all over the table saw, and covering all the flat spaces I need for working. No photos, please!


----------



## Brit

Terry said: "I'm pretty sure that now I own this group's *ugliest* saw till…"

Terry, I'm claiming the ugliest saw till crown. I have two bent wire coat hangers hanging from two nails in the rafters. Can't get much uglier than that. )


----------



## chrisstef

Terry - you cant say that you have the ugliest till and not show it bro. Mine just might rival yours. Show me yours and ill show you mine


----------



## terryR

Andy, I can't believe you're still using that till after a saw fell off a few months ago?

OK, mine is 2nd ugliest…trust me, Stef, you don't wanna see a photo. Not as ugly as man boobs, but pine and wood screws just don't look like anything but pine and wood screws.


----------



## terryR

However…I have news from a reliable source which says Bad Axe Saws will begin to offer Panel saws in a few more months…schweet!


----------



## terryR

Here's a restore that's been on the back burner for a long time…A 10" Disston No4 Backsaw, medallion says 1897-1917, tote is Apple. I cannot find any before photos, but this one was rusty and crooked, and missing one horn when I purchased it off kneeBay.










I cleaned the plate with mucho sandpaper, then mailed it to Joe at Second Chance Saw Works for fresh rip teeth filed at 15ppi. He had to straighten the plate by hammering the back into the correct position, but I didn't send the handle along at the same time, so I had to re-mortise the tote a bit to accept the repaired plate.

I swear the replaced horn is Apple, but I did a lousy job of matching coloration of the vintage tote with my new horn. The finish is simply tinted Renaissance wax, instead of the tinted Shellac I was afraid to experiment with on this project. Maybe I can give the shellac a try down the road since this one's been a user for months now…even with the missing horn.


----------



## Brit

Wonderful job you and Joe made of that Terry. That is sure to become a favourite.


----------



## donwilwol

a wonderful job Terry. What a great looking saw.


----------



## chrisstef

You make me wanna farm my saws out with that refurb Terry. She's looking niiiiice. I figure it took me a year and a half to get all my planes tuned and sharp, why should my saws be any different lol?

I did a little work on the Langdon Miter box saw last night. I tried to find Autosol locally but to no avail. I ended up getting Blue Magic instead. Scraped the plate with a razor blade, applied daubs of BM, scrubbed with tin foil. It lifted up a lot of the rust and grime but did not leave a super shiny surface so I fell back and sanded with 320, 400, 600, 800. That's seemed to be the ticket. I wouldn't say it left the saw brand spanking new but it did enough of a job that I cant wait to get a new handle on it and pair it up with my miter box. No pics, I suck, phone died. Soon though. Soon.


----------



## bandit571

Yard sale find (FREE
















Had bought a knife set for $5, then found the hacksaw on the ground. Took it back in to pay for it, and was told I paid too much for the knife set, by $2! Soooo, I got a dollar back, plus the saw.

Etch on the saw reads "WARDS MASTER QUALITY". Plastic grips are cracked. I THINK they are plastic, anyway. Needs a new blade, no biggie. Will try to clean it up….


----------



## DanKrager

I tried the rubbing compound with aluminum foil trick and like the results. I couldn't find Autosol locally. It might have done better. These plates were badly rusted and pitted, and I didn't have hopes (after working on it awhile) of making them look decent. But, using the foil trick and the talcum powder trick, I think they will pass as good old working saws.
I rubbed the talc into the blade using clean foil after polishing with the foil. Look at the difference it made! I've known for years that baby talc seals, makes cast iron very slippery, bright, and smells good. I use it regularly to keep my cast iron tables clean, polished, and slippery. (BTW, instead of pasting sand paper on something to keep things from slipping, I rub a resin block-think violin-vigorously on the surface. No grit, no bother, no mess.) These plates are so slippery I have to watch to be sure the thing doesn't slither off the bench.
Before:

















After:

















DanK


----------



## ksSlim

Big THANK YOU Andy for taking the time to do the video! I pray the prelim executive viewing goes well.
Many of us have followed your blog and are anxiously awaiting the release of professional instruction.

Again, Thanks for taking the time to share your experience.

slim


----------



## Wally331

I bought up these two saws from a rummage sale today. Really broke the bank on this one, a whopping $1.50









And here is father and son









The smaller one is most likely too pitted to be a user, but I need the sawnuts for backsaws. The big one, man she is gonna be a beautiful saw, I really cant wait to start the restore.

Anyways, I was thinking about making custom backsaws for people if anyone is interested. The first two would be made from thicker steel from a disston mitersaw, the handle could be any wood or design, and I can file rip or crosscut, and whatever tooth spacing you want. These would make great tenon saws, or a large crosscut backsaw due to thicker kerf.


----------



## TobyC

Don't give up on that No. 7 panel saw so quickly, clean it first. How long is it anyway, 16", Maybe 18"?

Date range on both?

Toby


----------



## BrandonW

Just something I spotted on the 'bay:


----------



## terryR

Maybe this is an appropriate time…before I try…

Anyone cleaned an old saw in the sandblaster yet?


----------



## DanKrager

TerryR, yes I have tried briefly. I used a medium screen silica sand and it is WAY too coarse. I pitted the test area worse than the heavy rust! So, if you do try it, go for a softer, finer medium. Soda might be about right? Clean off the major rust first so it doesn't unnecessarily dirty your medium. I've heard of ground corn cobs being a good polishing medium, never tried because I couldn't find them.
Good luck.
DanK


----------



## DanKrager

+1 on TobyC
Wally, do try to clean up the little panel saw. The blade posted above your post was very, very, bad…hardly recognizable as a saw. Cleaned up, I intend to re-tooth it as a nice cross cut. Yes it was very badly pitted, but it will slide smoothly through the cuts now!
Like frogs in a pond, I too will join the chorus of those looking forward to Andy's instruction. Thank you Andy, for sharing your experience!
DanK


----------



## donwilwol

So I had only a small amount of time in the shop this morning. Last few days were spent in the hospital for my newest little guy. Thanks to some fine medical staff and a small operation he's coming home today already. If you think watching your kid's in pain is difficult, wait till your watching your kid's watching their kids in pain! Talk about heart wrenching. So I had a few conservations with that guy I talk to when I'm alone in my shop this morning. I let him know I was pleased with the outcome, but a little less drama would have been sufficient. Any how, I'll be taking off in a few minute to welcome the little guy home again, thus the short shop time.

So how's this related to saw's, well, since I wasn't in the mood for a "real" project, I decided to try the sandblaster on a saw. Funny on that timing. I grabbed an old disston short toolbox saw, which looked a lot like Wally's. I'm using black beauty media. It took care of the rust but sanding was still required. I sand blasted, course wire brushed it, did some sanding and polishing and it came out well enough I'll need to continue with the tote.

Sorry, no pictures. My phone is in repair mode. Guerilla glass and concrete floors mix about as well as cast iron and concrete floors! Pictures soon I hope (of the saw, not the guerilla glass)


----------



## AnthonyReed

Glad to hear there is a bright outcome Don. Love to see the sandblasting results, when you are able.


----------



## waho6o9

Good news on the family front Don, good news indeed .


----------



## DanKrager

Yes, glad to hear good news. 
DanK


----------



## terryR

Hope all os well, Don! And thanks for sharing the black beauty experience…


----------



## chrisstef

All's well that ends well Don. Glad to hear the outcome was positive. Congrats on bein a grampa .. Again


----------



## OnlyJustME

He seems like a great guy to me so that would make him a great grandpa right. lol 

Congrats.


----------



## donwilwol

thanks Guys!!

Grabbed the wife's camera


----------



## Brit

*Don* - Glad to hear everything worked out fine. I can imagine what a trying time that must have been for everyone.

Looks like that is going to be a nice saw when you have the time to finish it and get it sharpened.

*slim* - Getting the video uploaded in Full HD quality is proving to be a right pain in the backside. It takes so long to upload only to find out at the end that it hasn't been successful. I *WILL* get there though, but I have to go through a process of elimination to find the cause of the problem. Hopefully I will be successful this week. I watched it on my TV today using the TV as a monitor for my laptop and if I do say so myself, it ain't half bad! LOL. Of course you have to see past the wind noise (not that kind of wind Stef), occassional plane, lawnmower, birds etc., but in a funny kind of way I think it adds something to the video and makes it a unique. My wife even watched a bit of it and afterwards she said: "Well now I know how to sharpen a saw, but I can't see when I'll ever use it working in a law firm." Hope you guys like it when I finally get it uploaded successfully.


----------



## OnlyJustME

She can use it to cut through all the legal jargon. That'll dull up anything right quick.


----------



## DanKrager

Hey DonW, what brand of plate is that? It looks to be the same hole arrangement I have on a plate that was sold as a Disston D7. (see my earlier post) But none of the D7 handle patterns I've found seem to come close to fitting. I have to make a handle from scratch because the handle that came on it was a deteriorated forestry saw handle. I'm still looking for apple wood.
Now, for the final report on this D8. I bought a handle with medallions partly because I liked the carving. The original handle is usable but has two broken places, one of which I repaired badly, so it goes into storage. Maybe I'll carve on it for practice. After the oil varnish mix dried I mounted the handle and surprise surprise the holes needed only a little filing to line up. Then I sharpened it to rip configuration (close to "as found") and made these test cuts. With six PPI it took 10 strokes to cut five inches in this spruce and that includes the starting wiggles. It looked like it was removing almost 3/4" each stroke near the end of the cut! Effortless. And all without the benefit of Andy's problematic wisdom. Can't wait to see what I could have done better. I know there are some cattle down by the toe…








DanK


----------



## Brit

Nice one Dan! Looking good.


----------



## terryR

Nice saw, Dan! Looks like it rips wonderfully. I've been on the lookout for Applewood, too. Hard to find…

And thanks for mentioning your experience with sand blasting…I think I'll give soda a try on an old warranted superior.

Andy, buy a ********************load of DVD's. Burn your video. Sell the DVD's to us suckers for $25. Use the profits to buy a Bad Axe Sash Saw. just sayin'


----------



## racerglen

Hard to find useable applewood here too, allthough it is considered prime firewood for many, great on the barby..
Just have to find a friendly orchardist who's been stockppiling for the fall burning season I guess.


----------



## chrisstef

Id pay $25 just to have Andy's face on my television any time I wanted nevermind it coming with any information. Id pick up a 4 rack of Guiness, pop in my dvd of Andy, and feel like I was getting my English pub on.


----------



## AnthonyReed

Very nice Don.

Dan that sounds like you have it in great working order already.

+1 Terry, i'm in for a DVD.


----------



## Brit

You guys are killing me here. You haven't even seen it yet! It might be a pile of doggy doo.

Keep everything you've got two of crossed, that tonight's upload is the final time I have to do it. I think I have found the problem and fixed it. As long as the hotel's internet connection doesn't drop out on me, it should be there tomorrow.


----------



## terryR

I'm just guessing…but I imagine most Apple trees aren't cut down unless they are diseased or problematic in some way…you just don't cut down good crop producers.

There's a guy on eBay now with long slabs of Apple…lots of 'em. But, many are cracked down the center from either quick kiln drying or defects in the wood. So, an 8" wide slab wouldn't be any good for saw totes. bummer. To me, it's a gamble buying such a chunk of wood without touching it!

+1 to cooling out in front of the TV with Andy's video. Easy to pause, rewind, and watch many times until memorized!


----------



## chrisstef

Keep everything you've got two of crossed …

That happened to me once, I ended up in the hospital, I think they called it a barrel roll. Scotty might be able to confirm.


----------



## Brit

You guys are killing me here. You haven't even seen it yet! It might be a pile of doggy doo.

Keep everything you've got two of crossed, that tonight's upload is the final time I have to do it. I think I have found the problem and fixed it. As long as the hotel's internet connection doesn't drop out on me, it should be there tomorrow.


----------



## BrandonW

Andy, it could be a pile of doggy doo (though I doubt it), but we Americans will do anything you say because you'll sound smart with your fancy British accent.


----------



## DonBroussard

@Brit-Hope the technology gods smile on you (on our behalf) tonight.

Premier party for Brit's video tonight for invited guests at my house. I am furnishing all the Guiness I care for you to drink-some at room temperature and some chilled like I like them.


----------



## terryR

Brandon's correct! The English accent is the draw! That's why I like Paul Sellers so much..


----------



## planepassion

That's true about the English accent. Hell, people use it to sell Orbit gum, so why not other things…like saw sharpening videos? Hmmm. Andy, you should hire the Orbit gum blond to promote your wares. I can hear here at the end of each chapter. "Fabulous!"


----------



## Wally331

Brit, I'm really looking forward to this video, 10 hour upload, that sounds awful.

Don, I'm happy that your grandson is better, that saw cleaned up nice too.

I've been working on my backsaw, got the blade polished up for the most part. The handle is almost finished, I'm going to add some wipe on poly I think, just for more protection and grain filling. As soon as my saw file comes I'll sharpen it up and then offer it to you guys  $40 anyone? nice new tenon or crosscut carcass saw, you pick how its filed.


















How does one go about drilling through spring steel anyways? Do I need a carbide bit? Or am I better off just buying a cheap punch set?


----------



## donwilwol

*Dan* it had a Disston medallion. I'm thinking its a D-12


----------



## BrandonW

Wally, you're selling that nice saw? How come?

And I just used a regular metal/wood brad point drill bit and it worked fine for me.


----------



## Brit

At long last, my saw sharpening video is uploaded. Please see my latest blog post for details.


----------



## OnlyJustME

and the crowd goes wild!!!!

Awesome. thanks again Andy.


----------



## racerglen

Wally, I've used a carbide masonary bit to drill saw plate, just touched up the tip a hair on a used one, new one worked like a dream, just use some cutting oil as well.


----------



## chrisstef

Nice work Wally. Im working on putting that package together. Sit tight bro.

Andy - glory!!! I cant wait to sit down and watch it.


----------



## RGtools

Andy, I feel your pain about the upload times. My wife was going to kill me during the Occasional class. Every time she went to the PC she heard the dreaded hands-off phrase "Sorry hon, Uploading"

And with my video links all broken I am going to have to upload it all again. I might need to bribe her.


----------



## waho6o9

Mighty fine news Andy, many thanks.

Woo Hoo


----------



## Brit

*Ryan* - I'd been trying to upload it all last week without success and I suddenly realised that it was probably due to the fact that I'd exceeded the 20Gb total allowable free storage on Youtube. Once I removed a few personal videos that I no longer need, it uploaded successfully. I don't mind waiting hours for it to upload, but when it gets to 100% and then it says the video can't be uploaded, I can't help thinking that they could have written the code to work that out at the beginning of the upload.


----------



## BrandonW

So far I've viewed 45 minutes and have been enjoying it a lot and learning a lot! Thanks for your hard work putting this together.


----------



## terryR

Nice work, Andy! How large is the video file in GB? We are only allowed 5GB per month via our satellite service. What a rip off…


----------



## Mosquito

terry, you need better internet lol Most cellphone companies allow you that much


----------



## terryR

Mos, you gotta see where I live, bro. No cell phone signal, no city water, we are literally the last house on the power line! It really sucks when I'm out of Oreos and have to drive 35 minutes each way for a fix…

...but fiber optic coming soon…the extra line is already coiled up on the pole in front of our house!


----------



## chrisstef

Man a 35 minute ride for Oreo's …. that's tough. Want a real fat bastard way of eating Oreo's, ok good, I thought so. Grab yourself the thinnest fork you can find (grind one down if you must), slide the tines of the fork into the cream of the cookie, full dunkage into some milk. No messy fingers and full coverage. Whassup.


----------



## Mosquito

lol I figured that would be the case Terry. I would like to get on fiber optic internet, but not available for me yet


----------



## RGtools

*Andy* I had exactly the same issue on FB. You would think they could have programmed a disallow warning box rule to save people time and agony. I guess they figure if you upload that much vide you should know what you are doing. (boy were they wrong in my case)


----------



## Tim457

Couldn't find any apple wood around me, but for anybody in mid michigan, I found a line on some here. I have some family that way I could get it from. $6/BF but he has a $100 minimum and I don't need that much, but if anyone wants to split… or if it's worth it to ship to someone at that price let me know.

Nice tip stef, but no need to grind the fork. Just get double stuffed oreos. 

And Andy you're the man on that video, thanks.


----------



## grfrazee

@chrisstef - That's friggin brilliant!


----------



## TechRedneck

Terry

I'm with ya bro, I am the last on the line and pay full price for crappy DSL most days am lucky to get 450Kps down and a pitiful 120Kps up. The price we pay for living in the country. At least you have fiber coming. I won't see it for years with Frontier (our phone company).

Andy:

can't wait to see the video, It will take me a lot longer to download it here at the house but am sure it will be worth it. Thanks for going through all the trouble!


----------



## Don2Laughs

Hey Andy!! I watched the entire video and cannot tell you how impressed, encouraged and inspired I am. I have watched Ron Herman, Lie Nielsen, Peter Sellers and many others but your presentation is exemplary and far more informative that any of the others. I cannot thank you enough!

Don in San Digeo


----------



## Wally331

Thanks again everyone, as to why I am selling my saws, I need money to make more . I am looking to make saws from raw materials, so I need to get some brass, steel, sawnuts, materials for a brake to bend the backs, materials to polish the saws etc. Looking forward to that package chrisstef.

Andy, thank you so much for your video, best and most comprehensive video on saw sharpening I have seen yet. And it is free! thanks so much for your time, it should help me max out my saws to their potential.


----------



## Brit

Your're welcome Wally. It is free, but a small to donation to the charity Christmas carnival would be greatly appreciated. The way I look at it is that if enough woodworkers say thanks by making a donation, then I won't have to stand on a street corner with a bucket later in the year when I could be doing some woodworking. )


----------



## chrisstef

So you're saying that standing on street corners isn't your full time job Andy? I swear I could have seen a post some time ago in reference to such an occupation.

Wally - I scooped up the box to fill for ya …. now I just gotta fill it … baby stef steps. Soon brotha soon.


----------



## Brit

You've lost me there Stef. I don't have a clue what you're on about I'm afraid. LOL.


----------



## chrisstef

Somethin kinda like this Andy ….










Except you're not the one in the car  Vanessa, Jessica, .... I cant seem to recall.


----------



## donwilwol

that's a different video Stef!


----------



## CL810

Dorothy in a red polka dot dress if I remember correctly.


----------



## Brit

Oh you're referring to Jennifer. Shes's a fox, but she only comes out on Thursday nights when there is an 'R' in the month.


----------



## Brit

Nice boots by the way. )


----------



## AnthonyReed

Where is the donation link Andy? It is almost Christmas right?


----------



## Brit

Tony the site is http://www.highcliffecarnival.org.uk. There is a link to it halfway down the page where I posted the finished video. The instructions are also there with screenprints of the steps. It is really easy and payment is through Paypal so is secure. Heres the link to the finished video:

http://lumberjocks.com/Brit/blog/36332


----------



## DanKrager

DonW, I think a D-12 is a good match for what I have. I'll treat it as such. Thank you for the input. I may as well go ahead and sharpen it while I wait for apple to make the handle. It has to be retoothed, and it isn't stamped what the original was, so I'm headed for 10 or 12 maybe even as high as 14 TPI because I want a pretty fine cross cut for hardwoods. The cheap crosscut I have is pretty coarse and is good for construction work. 
DanK


----------



## TerryDowning

Andy -

Super job on the saw sharpening video. Thanks so much for distilling information i had read and seen on other sites. Although this video is 2hrs, it actually is quite concise for the different scenarios provided.

Now all I need to do is build a saw vise, some of those file guides and get busy.


----------



## donwilwol

Sharpened up the D8 and D12 this morning.





































This is a 26" and the 28" together. Gee, now I hate to break up the set!


----------



## theoldfart

There is nothing like the sound of a well sharpened saw, to paraphrase a local denizen!


----------



## DanKrager

Nice, DonW
DanK


----------



## terryR

Nice looking saws, Don!
Love the money shop with the rip…looks straighter than my bandsaw!


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Nice work (as usual), Don. You're an inspiration!


----------



## planepassion

Don, all three of those saws are beauties. Have you tried thumping your D12's sawplate? My No. 12 has a very pleasing ring to it when I do this. Unlike any other saw I own. Was curious if yours did the same.


----------



## OnlyJustME

Am i missing something here? why did this one go for so much? It's not even a brass back saw.


----------



## Brit

I don't think you're missing anything. I wouldn't even have bid on that saw, let alone pay that much when I could have gotten one from Second Chance Saw Works for around the same price.


----------



## OnlyJustME

that's what i was thinking. Maybe they thought it was made or owned by Chris Schwartz?
When i started watching it, it was only $20 and stayed there for quite a while.


----------



## terryR

That dovetail saw is weird…I don't see a Disston mark on it anywhere, just the usual Cast Steel and Warranted. I guess somebody was related to M.Schwartz, or they are a Boston area collector with way too much money! 

Here is a little Sargent Trans plane that some guy wants $250+ shipping. No, it's not a type 1 that I can see. So…I looked at the other stuff the same seller had to offer…One item was a flint arrowhead without authentication papers, asking price of $1500! Ridiculous.

I rekon some folks like to see big numbers on their items for sale? Or they are taking a chance some other fool won't know what the item is worth, either, and bid, bid, bid…


----------



## Brit

FYI - There is no 'T' in Chris Schwarz's name.


----------



## grfrazee

@terryR - everyone likes to think they bought something at a steal of a price and can sell it for a ridiculous markup. I was at a flea market last weekend and there was a guy selling a wooden filletster plane for $100. Boxing was falling out, wedge was chipped, and the body was all checked. His rationale was that the plane "was worth $200" but he was knocking some off for the defects.

Either that or he thought he could sucker someone into buying it because it was so old. I don't know that I would have given him $20, and that would have been to cannibalize the metal parts for a new plane.

In any case, I had some free time over the weekend and got this guy done:



Finally, I can sharped the few saws I've managed to collect.


----------



## bandit571

Rust hunt today:









I refurbbed both that handplane and the saw. $1 Warranted Superior 7 ppi. It does have this "bump" on one end, though









I cleaned a couple of saw plates today, using some metal polish, smeared around with a 3m purple scratch pad, and a 1/4 sheet sander holding some 150 grit paper. Worked until the sander died. B&D one, maybe $30? Replace later…The other handsaw is a 14" long toolbox saw, with 10 ppi









Even worked on a 5 pointer Rip saw. It was the one that killed the sander…..


----------



## DonBroussard

My wife and I just returned home from a road trip from Lafayette, LA to Denver, and we did some rustiquing along the way. I picked up my first nibbed saw on the way home in Blackwell, OK and I need some assistance with ID'ing the saw. I visited the Disstonian Institute site and made a few observations. Based on the medallion's words, shape and type of split nuts, it looks like it's around 1877 or so. I did not see a three nut tote, but there is a note that some of their panel saws had three nuts. Initial cleaning did not reveal an engraving, but it's still early. Here are a few pics for your consumption:










Overview of the saw before cleaning or disassembly. The plate length is roughly 20" (panel saw?)










Close up of the nib.










Engraved "8" at the heel. I think it's filed rip, since I don't feel any set to the teeth.










Close up of the tote with broken top horn. It kinda looks like the tote was painted black, but it could just be discolored from being a working saw.










Close up of the medallion.










Assembled medallion in profile.

Any help will be appreciated. Thanks in advance. I'll probably disassemble and start cleaning the saw tomorrow. BTW, I gave $4 for the saw.


----------



## carguy460

Don - Sweet find! I travel through Blackwell quite often, might I ask where you found this gem?

I have a small Disston saw that I was able to date to 1865-1871…I've attached the pic of the tote. It is similar to yours, though you have a lambs tongue and mine doesnt!










I'm still not sure what model mine is either…but I would say ours are brothers, or cousins at least!


----------



## Brit

Don - No.7
Jason - No.8


----------



## DonBroussard

@Jason-Your saw does look a lot like mine. I agree that they are at least cousins. We got the saw at Ashby's Antique Mall on Main Street in Blackwell. We went to this shop on the way to Denver, and stopped on the way home and spent about two hours just in the upstairs booths.

@Andy- Thanks for the ID. Now on to dating the saw . . .


----------



## donwilwol

I need some help digging up some history. I was in an antiques shop over the week end. I was rifling threw a bunch of saws when the owner popped around and ask if I wanted to see the tool chest. "No" I said, just looking at these old saws. I'll give you a deal on them if you want them he responded. Not knowing what he meant by "a deal" I said, "they're in pretty rough shape". "Well, I'll let them go for a couple bucks each".

So I offered $5 for the 3, and away we go.

S Biggin and Sons, Sheffield.



















And Tho & Tillotson‏ (Not sure about the &) but I found Matt has one, http://thesawblog.com/?p=569 but an internet search brought up nothing else.




























And then a nice little panel saw. Maybe another D12










Now my original thought was, hey the brass nuts are worth that price, but I'm thinking these may be worth saving.


----------



## OnlyJustME

all depends on how bad the rust is but at least worth a shot. Good practice with Andy's saw sharpening video.


----------



## chrisstef

I think i knew a Mrs. Biggin's at one point in time Don.


----------



## dczward

I just finished cleaning up a Stanley 246 mitre box. It has a weird franken saw: a Disston saw handle and back bar, but the etch shows "Langdon Mitre Box, Millers Falls"...





































Not sure how the Disston and Millers Falls parts got together, but the saw is in great shape, straight, and cuts great. Anyone have an idea of how that might have come to pass?

I blogged more about it with pics over here… http://dcwwoodworks.com/blog/2013/6/17/new-tool-stanley-246-mitre-box


----------



## donwilwol

Nice mitre Douglas. Here is some history on the saw, http://oldtoolheaven.com/miter-boxes/northampton-langdon.html


----------



## bandit571

Who made a 14" long "Tool Box SAW" by Pheonix? Nice little saw, nice, comfy tote









Plate is stamped "10", and is even a skewback! Nice little crosscut saw.









Seems to fit just about any toolbox…...


----------



## donwilwol

Can someone tell me where I put my split nut driver or do I need to make a new one? Ughhh


----------



## DaddyZ

Don - It's under the Bench…
I lost the Chuck for my drill press, it was there 1 day then gone the next.. course at the time I was sharing space with a Packrat, Literaly…..


----------



## BrandonW

Haha! I hope you find it, Don. In the mean time, here's a saw circle:


----------



## Mosquito

that actually looks kind of cool, sort of like the "looking down the barrel" James Bond intro


----------



## donwilwol

they say necessity is the mother of invention. I discovered the back side of a Stanley utility knife blade is just right for split nuts. I cut it like this…..










Then drove it into the end of a piece of wood (its sharp so it drives in fairly easy) a little bigger than a pencil on one end and tapered up to screwdriver size. Took about 15 minutes and worked like a charm.

What do we do with a "saw circle" ? That's somebody with way to much time on there hands.


----------



## donwilwol




----------



## chrisstef

Thats an interesting saw nut pattern there Don. Whats the make on the saw bruddah?


----------



## donwilwol

http://lumberjocks.com/replies/653680

Back just a few Stef, Tho & Tillotson‏ (Not sure about the &) but I found Matt has one, http://thesawblog.com/?p=569 but an internet search brought up nothing else.


----------



## TobyC

Does the panel saw's label screw look like this?


----------



## Brit

Don you're a genius - necessity really is the mother of invention. I've got loads of those old blades. Always knew they'd come in handy.

Brandon - don't go anywhere near a saw circle, you'll get sucked in and you'll never get out again. Take it from one who knows )


----------



## Brit

...and another thing Don. How the hell did you get all those clamps on that saw handle without it exploding?


----------



## donwilwol

its just a tender touch!!


----------



## chrisstef

Ahh. Its much more pronounced with the split nuts off. Very cool but ill hold back my excitement for the full on "DW tender touch" completion. First class work buddy.


----------



## AnthonyReed

Don…. you are a remarkable fellow.


----------



## bandit571

TobyC: Mine does indeed have that kind of medallion on it. Along with two other bolts. Not a whole lot of room there. Plate is 14" long. Stamped as a "10" . LOTS of set to the teeth.


----------



## terryR

Don, Thanks for sharing the razor blade tip! I was just about to make another split nut driver for some tiny nuts. Will have to try the 'razor trick'.

Def some advanced clamping action going on there…looks like magic holding it all together!


----------



## DanKrager

It's an elf trick.
DanK


----------



## TobyC

bandit571,

I'ts an E. C. Atkins & Co., Inc. - Indianapolis, IN. if the label screw is original to the saw.

Toby


----------



## RGtools

Finally got to turn on my bandsaw this morning.

Hole-E-Crap. I can't believe how freaking quiet the motor is. It just hums. I know this is mostly a hand tool thread, but I wanted to thank the guys here for all the advice on this rather large purchase for me.

So far, I could not be happier.


----------



## donwilwol

Yes, it mostly a hand tool thread, but I know *I* use my bandsaw a lot in hand saw handle remake and repair. I'm glad its working out well.


----------



## donwilwol

a little progress



















Unfortunately the S Biggin and Sons is going to need a new plate. It to badly pitted. The Tho & Tillotson‏ I think is actually going to come out ok.


----------



## Brit

Looking good Don.


----------



## theoldfart

Geez Don, maybe I could leverage directions for a handle or two
Nice work.


----------



## terryR

Nice work, Don. I like the v-notch.


----------



## bandit571

Medallion looks like the original one.

An Atkins Tool box saw? Imagine that….


----------



## bandit571

Most expensive part about this latest Rust Hunt? Gas. Also had to take the Better Half along, even more cash!

anyway, one stop had four saws









You know that smell when there is a rusty tool around? I could smell these out at the end of the 1/4 mile lane they called a Driveway….









Not too sure about that short, fat one. Blade is set at a funny angle too. Price tag says it all….$0.25 each. Mostly Warranted Superiors, and crosscuts. The is one newer one, though









Went on down the road a ways. There was that smell again. Pulled in and looked around









At first, I thought it was $10 for a rusty, old back saw. Got to looking at that "other" part of the set. Talked the price down to $8. Seems to be a miter box of some sort









Seems to have been made by "GEM"









Maybe Smitty could tell more???


----------



## theoldfart

"saw" one of those in Maine last week, didn't see the price. My eyes were blinded by the glare from my new Jennings auger set!


----------



## Brit

OK, OK, don't rub it in you lucky dog. )


----------



## theoldfart

I am NOT a dog, I'm a MUTT!


----------



## bandit571

Weird Saw?









There were just two bolts with this $0.25 saw. Because that were the olny holes that lined up. 9 is stamped on the plate









But the holes do NOT match the tote









Doen't show any signs of being cut down, either









Not sure about the Medallion, either. Nickle plated, but so worn it is just a smooth dome. Can barely make out the WS logo on it. No etch on the plate, as of yet.

Tote pattern? Tote that is with it is not even close. Anyone ever see a plate like this one? Plate is 19-1/2" long, toe is almost 4" in depth, while at the heel, 7" high.

Strange plate???


----------



## Brit

Are you sure it isn't a cut down Bandit? My eyes are seeing an etch in the area shown below, but I could be wrong.


----------



## bandit571

There are some scratchings there. If it was cut down, they did a very good job of it. Curves look right. Still cleaning it up. I have FIVE saw to clean up, and I have to work at my "Day Job" the next three nights. YUCK. Plate got this far with just some 100 grit paper on a 1/4 sheet sander…


----------



## TobyC

It's cut down, got to be, and it probably had a nice handle that they put on a better blade. That blade may have been bent or cracked, and they cut the bad part off.

Toby


----------



## TobyC

Check this out.

Link=

Toby


----------



## TobyC

13 or 14 inches from the heel, carefully clean and look for an etch. If the original handle was nice enough to keep, you may find a worthy etch.

Toby


----------



## Brit

I'm inclined to agree Toby.

Which forum should we both appear on next? I've got six open at the moment. LOL.


----------



## TobyC

We've been bumping into each other all over the world, people are going to wonder about us!

Toby


----------



## theoldfart

Something from Lost Art Press
http://blog.lostartpress.com/2013/06/30/manufacture-of-saws-in-sheffield/

BTW *ANDY*, Matt Cianci sharpened my dovetail saw a few months ago, phenomenal job and great guy. Hoping to take a saw making class with him soon.


----------



## Brit

Thanks for the link Kevin. I've read that article a few times before. Dry grinder rarely lived past their mid-twenties.

Yes do take a class with Matt. You can't get better instruction than that and you'll wonder why you left it so long. Hopefully, by then we will all have some decent files to use. If anyone hasn't signed the petition to see a return to the saw file designs of old with a greater emphasis on quality, please take a look at the following thread and add your support.

http://lumberjocks.com/topics/50943#reply-658403


----------



## bandit571

Found an etch! But, wrong saw. A $0.25 Skew back, one that is

Etch says it is a Plymouth Rock! patent pending. Eagle standing on a rock, arches over it, a flag at each end. Still trying to make out the script below the eagle. Medallion says it is a Pheonix (Atkins) saw. 9 pointer…









Brass bolts are being cleaned up now.









Waiting on another one of the 25 cent saws to finish soaking in something called "The Works"


----------



## TobyC

I've seen a Plymouth Rock hand saw on a forum somewhere, but I can't remember where!!!!

I'll see what I can find.

Toby


----------



## TobyC

The handle is right for an Atkins, look here#.

Don't see a Plymouth rock there, but that's just a pocket catalog.

Toby


----------



## TobyC

From here, not a Plymouth Rock, but look at the handle shape.


----------



## bandit571

Looks about the same, don't it? Not too bad for just a quarter???


----------



## bandit571

On the "Fat Saw": Cleaned up some bolts for it. And a matching Steel WS Medallion. Didn't like the handle, too "modern-looking" and boxy. Looked at the two WS saws…...
Hmm. maybe this tote is a better "fit"?









Hardware is now a shiny "Gun-metal" colour. Will have to drill new holes. Shouldn't be that hard to sharpen up.

Brass is now shiny, and back on the "Atkins/Pheonix/Plymouth Rock" saw. Need to finish cleaning the plate, and maybe some file work.

IF it ever stops raining around here, I can set up out on the back porch. Have a few chunks of pine, some clamps, and a stand. Clean up the plates, sharpen the plates, and get a tan for my bald head to boot…


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Cincinnati Saw Co. Backsaw, 10" and dull as the dickens. But one to go with the 16" CSCo. sash saw already in the till by Mr. Bishop in his earliest days. A group photo when I get them together, perhaps.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

^ stupid cropped photo…


----------



## Brit

Nice score Smitty.


----------



## TobyC

Yeah, it doesn't resize the pic it just chops it off.

Toby


----------



## TobyC

Hey Bandit,
Did you find an etch on the "fat saw"?


----------



## TobyC

Hey Andy,
I think this is the first time I've seen you today.
What time is it right now your time?


----------



## donwilwol

What time is it right now your time?

Same time it was last night at this time.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Andy, maybe this one is light enough to make it across the Pond. 

> I Wish… <


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

The pair, re-united!


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Argh!!! Cut off again!!!


----------



## BrandonW

The trick is to "upload" from your computer rather than to link to an online image.


----------



## AnthonyReed

^He's ninja fast with that stuff.

Nice score Smitty.


----------



## donwilwol

nice pair Smitty.


----------



## Brit

Following on from what Brandon said, if you want to use the max. width that LJs allows for you photos, you need to upload them to Photobucket.com (or one of the other online hosting services) and choose Edit>Resize, then set the width to 640 pixels. Save it at the new size and then in the 'Links to share this photo' box, click the 'HTML' link which will copy the URL to the clipboard. You can then paste it into LJs and it will come out like this.


----------



## Brit

The offer is always open Smitty.

Toby - It is 07:32 right now. You can do the math )


----------



## TobyC

You're five hours ahead of me Ruddy Boe.

Toby


----------



## TobyC

Andy-You could swim to Paris!

Toby


----------



## donwilwol

Smitty, I love the photography…..with the cut nails thrown in for good measure!!


----------



## Brit

Why would I want to do that Toby? I'd get wet!


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Don, they were in my pocket… Really…


----------



## donwilwol

I *do* believe they were in your pocket!


----------



## Brit

Doesn't *everyone* walk around with cut nails in their pocket?


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Galoots do.


----------



## bandit571

Ok, holes are drilled, hardware install, tote has one coat of finish









Going to have to joint the teeth, all calfs and cows. After the BLO finish dries, a test drive might be in order?

Note: Did not find any etch on the plate. Teeth count is stamped as a 9.


----------



## TobyC

I like it, and it may prove more useful than you think.


----------



## TobyC

Does that handle have a light colored "center"?


----------



## bandit571

nope, router bit marks is all.


----------



## bandit571

a couple more views of the completed saw?









with steel bolts, that kind of go along with this saw









Two 25 cent saws rehabbed, three more to go, counting the one that came with the mitre box by GEM.


----------



## donwilwol

this is kinda cool, http://alaskawoodworker.wordpress.com/2013/07/03/roubo-frame-saw-aka-the-beast/


----------



## donwilwol

So….remember the Tho & Tillotson?




























It was really pitted and I didn't think it was savable. Its not pretty, but it cuts like a champ. I knew sanding to get the pits out would have left me with a pile of dust. We'll caulk it up to character.










After sharpening I had a little walk I needed to take out. I've had this problem last 2 saws. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong, but I worked it out.





































Its still missing a brass nut to. I'll need to dig one up someplace.


----------



## Brit

That one looks like hard work Don. Look like it cuts fine though.


----------



## TobyC

Got a nice Sheffield label screw, most of the ones I see are pretty screwed up.


----------



## Tim457

Don, I've seen a few articles like that on those Roubo frame saws. One thing I don't get is how they are better than a regular 28" or longer hand saw with the same PPI, around 3. Some people mention being able to steer the frame saw more, others not, guess it depends on the blade depth and the amount of set. I think it would be fun to rip a chunk of tree into boards by hand just to say I did. Not sure if I would keep up with it after doing enough once for a small project though. Can't find any of my friends nuts enough to want to help, so it's got to be a one man version


----------



## BrandonW

Just shooting from the hip, but wouldn't the weight of the Roubo saw be an advantage, especially if you're operating it by yourself? Plus the relatively small height of the saw plate would made it easier to steer (or correct) than regular hand saws. I've never used one, but they look sweet. Maybe Dave could make and sell us some hardware?


----------



## bandit571

Work in progress









Started to clean up this backsaw, and found it has zero set to the teeth. It did clean up









Now to find a tiny saw set, and something to SEE those teeth with. 
Next in the "barrel"









This rusty, 25 centavo saw.









It says "Disston USA". Strange looking bolts, too. However, I am finding a Disston etch. Teeth are "set" to one side, will have to adjust that. As for that folding Mitre Box by GEM? Back saw that came with it has no set, but









this little guy worked just fine.


----------



## bandit571

Ok, at one time, I HAD two saw sets. Both are now gone, along with a saw jointer. I have a LARGE mill file, if needed. Is there a way to "hammer set' the teeth on a saw? IF I can see the tooth to hit it, of course.

That backsaw might just need some set placed back on it. Was cutting good, until the teeth buried in the wood. A couple other saws will be a little easier to file, and set.


----------



## Brit

Bandit - There's no easy way to do it with any degree of consistency. I've seen Paul Sellers rest the saw on a piece of softwood and bend every other tooth with a light blow of a hammer using a small nail punch. The problem with doing this in my opinion is the the tooth will bend at the bottom of the gullet rather than in the top half of the tooth. You would be better to wait until you get another saw set suitable for setting that size of teeth.


----------



## Don2Laughs

http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/item/MS-SAWSET.XX/Search/saw%20set%20tool/Saw_Sets

Great company as you probably already know.


----------



## TobyC

I agree, use a saw set or don't do it. You probably have your saw sets and jointer put away somewhere together, when and where did you use them last?


----------



## bandit571

I think they went by way of Fleabay. Had finish a bunch of saws last year, and didn't really need them any more, or so I thought.

Next week is payday, and then i'll see about a set.


----------



## bandit571

MIGHT, just might have to thin the herd a bit?









These are the Newbies, awaiting to be taken down to the shop, or sold. Four of them cost me a whopping $1 bill









That is, I paid $1 for this set of saws. They have been cleaned up, and a couple have been polished up. They go right along with the other two full length saws









About $3 setting there, one even has a nib! Had a couple smaller saws up here as well.









There are six more down in the dungeon shop. Might have to sell a few…..


----------



## TobyC

That's all you've got? I thought you were a saw guy!!


----------



## bandit571

Till only holds eight…..


----------



## bandit571

Plus there is a Dovetail saw, and three coping saws hanging around down there…Almost as many as the handplanes? maybe keeping some kind of balance here?


----------



## Tim457

Well lets see, you need a saw set up for each purpose right, one of each type for hardwood and one for soft. Plus one of each type for ripping and crosscutting. Probably need all four for full size but maybe can get by with two for panel saws and carcass saws and one or two for tenon saws, plus a dovetail saw. Those combinations add up to eleven or so, but if you had four of each type (one crosscut and one rip each set up for hard and soft wood) you'd have 16-20 saws easy without being a collector. Just one set up for each use. Am I missing anything major? Keyhole and coping/fret and framesaws I suppose.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

'plus a dovetail saw' is certainly not enough. Dovetail saw, gents dovetail, a sash saw and a good tenon saw are needed to fill out a well-equipped till. Rip and crosscut, of course.


----------



## theoldfart

Gonna use Andy's plans to make a sharpening jig for my new saw:









MF early model, still has the Millers Falls address


----------



## bandit571

hey, I'm a hand plane guy! I do use the saws down in the Dungeon shop. Sometimes even molest a few electrons with some vintage powered saws.

Will be doing tenon work, later today. let's see, which saw do i use???









Or, maybe the newbie?









Or, maybe one of these?









We'll see how it goes…


----------



## TobyC

bandit571 said,



> Till only holds eight…..


You only have one till!


----------



## donwilwol

I only have one trill.its 24×40'


----------



## donwilwol

Dup deleted


----------



## bandit571

yup, I have just one till, and it is kind of crowded









Tool box, plane till, drill press, one drawer of chisels, and about six hammers laying around.


----------



## theoldfart

Question, my best crosscut saw is a Sears Chromedge :









Who makes them? It went through this 6×6 DF beam quickly and without much effort.


----------



## TobyC

Don't know, Sandvik maybe.

You're not supposed to cut the board in-between the horses!


----------



## TobyC

Do you mean Sears Kromedge?


----------



## Tim457

Was at an estate sale and everything I was remotely interested in was very overpriced. I found a few saws that weren't worth much then I saw a Disston. Didn't want to look too closely at it and get my hopes up, but it didn't have a price on it so I took a shot and asked what he wanted. $2. Sold.









Turns out it's a D-8 and if the medallion is original it's made from 1896-1917 . The picture doesn't show but the etching is pretty good, and it is pretty sharp too. Little signs of any use, just a bit of chips off one side of the horns and a scratched in owners mark. No rust so I just took some 400 grit wet dry to it and got one side done.










Just have to finish the other side, polish, and clean up the handle.


----------



## lysdexic

Excellent, excellent find Tim.


----------



## TobyC

Two bucks!

I'll give you four if you pay shipping.

This forum needs smileys!


----------



## theoldfart

Toby, "between" ? Only one horse the other side was held up by the force. And yes Kromedge.


----------



## donwilwol

Tim, for $2 I'd mark that as the find of the week. I love the thumb hole saws.


----------



## donwilwol

Tim, for $2 I'd mark that as the find of the week. I love the thumb hole saws.


----------



## theoldfart

There's an echo in here


----------



## donwilwol

damn phone!!


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

I'd love to find a nice D8, handle intact, on a rust hunt someday in the future… Nice score indeed.


----------



## Tim457

Wait till I get it finished and I'll consider your generous offer, Toby. Double my investment! I was almost hesitant to clean it up but I was pretty sure it had enough marks against it to take away any collector value and I don't think it's rare. Besides, a polished saw plate performs better and you can do the reflection trick.

I realize value is subjective and varies, but does anybody know approximately how much it's worth?


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

^ Best assessment so far is Toby's $4…


----------



## Brit

Tim - I'll give you $600 for it.


----------



## Brit

Sorry Tim, I forgot the decimal point $6.00


----------



## Tim457

It's an auction Andy. Can't unring the bell, paddle is already in the air. Six hundred hundred, do I hear seeeeven?


----------



## Brit

$700.

Doh!!!


----------



## TobyC

You've got it in print! With witnesses! $700!


----------



## donwilwol

Talk about bidding wars!


----------



## CL810

$700 is only like 3 pounds to Andy.


----------



## theoldfart

Who's gonna snipe?


----------



## donwilwol

I've got 2 I'll sell. I think I paid $5.00. So lets see here, 2 times cost plus one minus the decimal. Yea baby!!


----------



## Airframer

Just received a box of goodies from Ryan  I am now one step closer to finally getting my saws in working order.


----------



## chrisstef

Hell yea Eric. Jump on in the waters warm and I think im the only one in the pool!


----------



## bandit571

Yard sale finds









The saw with the black top is stamped "vhGermany". Handles are quite strange, though









Might re-do them….


----------



## TobyC

Airframer,

42W,.... AKA 42SS?


----------



## Tim457

Nice Eric. Bandit that second one looks like a handle on a crosscut logging saw.

Well before I finished cleaning up the D-8 I found another. This time an Atkins No. 2 backsaw for $1. Not as great of shape with some bad rust and a missing horn, but can still read the etch. I cleaned up the medallion the best I could but I can't read the patent date. Does anyone know a date on this one? Best I can read from the medallion is it's possible the date is 1880's but that could be wishful thinking and the 1931 Atkins catalog lists a #2 so the model was around a while.


----------



## TobyC

The patent date has nothing to do with the saw, it's the patent date for that style of saw nut.


----------



## TobyC

NUTS


----------



## TobyC

Or if you prefer.


----------



## Tim457

Thanks Toby. Not easy finding info on Atkins saws on the web like it is with Disstons.


----------



## chrisstef

Heres the saw i just finished up sharpening. Looks like a 6 in the D. They didnt make a d6. Is it an 8 under a pit? 20" long 10 ppi.


----------



## TobyC

8 is what I see.


----------



## Don2Laughs

Clearly a D8


----------



## Airframer

Sooo.. coping saws for cutting dovetails.. The cheapo one i have (have had it for a while and can't remember the brand but I know it was cheap and from HD) is horrible for that application I found out last night.

So now I am on the hunt for a good budget priced coping saw. Also what TPI blade is most commonly used for cutting dovetails? Every video I see of someone cutting DT's with one of those it just cuts through like nothing and mine.. well.. it was a battle for sure.


----------



## Brit

Eric - This is the one that I use, which will also be available in the US I'm sure. The blade is 12.5tpi skip tooth. It is actually a Fret saw rather than a coping saw, but it works great and is reasonably priced. After fitting the blade, you just give the blade a quick 30 degree twist each end with a pair of pliers

http://www.classichandtools.com/acatalog/Fret-Saws.html


----------



## donwilwol

Eric, I bought a LV coping saw which is better, but I'm still not all that impressed. With a coping saw though, I find technique does help. Try moving the saw faster, but with a less aggressive cut. I find the technique needed a little odd to me, but it helps. Its kind of hard to explain.


----------



## Brit

...and you cut on the pull stroke.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

^ what done said on technique. My coping saw is an old Belknap / Bluegrass brand and is fine for dovetail work, as long as I keep in mind moving it quickly back and forth.


----------



## donwilwol

you cut on the pull stroke. Yep, very important.


----------



## carguy460

Agreed with the cut on pull stroke - I'm a novice at all this crap, and don't use a coping saw on dovetails, but I recently did a bunch of coping on some trim…I had the blade backwards at first (push stroke cut) and it was a nightmare! Did some research, flipped the blade, and this new guy cut some damn fine copes (is that what you call it?) if I do say so myself! Yeah, pics or it didn't happen…and I'm currently pic-less!


----------



## donwilwol

Some times those saws are just hard to cope with!

;-)


----------



## Brit

Don't Fret about it Don.


----------



## bandit571

Just my three oldies









They might still work…


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

I saw those two puns and wondered how your wives cope with either of you.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

They each look perfectly suited to cope work, Bandit!


----------



## donwilwol

Smitty, I think it proves love is blind.


----------



## terryR

So, what's the trick to removing dovetail waste with a coping saw? I tried the other day, but couldn't get the blade to turn in 3/4" cherry.

The 30 degree twist in the blade? (which I have NOT done yet)
Drilling a small hole at the point of turn?
More practice?


----------



## Brit

Terry - To turn it you have to saw on the spot whilst rotating your wrist until you can start moving in the new direction.


----------



## Mosquito

The 30° twist in the blade is so you can use it in the middle of a wider panel, or board and not hit the frame on the work piece if it gets too far in the middle of the work piece


----------



## donwilwol

The trick is keep the saw action moving while turning your wrist. The saw action needs to be short (its a short saw) quick strokes. The 30 degree offset blade helps to.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Cherry that thick is a tougher call for sure, Terry. Sorry for the bad graphic, but I pull the saw about halfway down a saw kerf then cut towards the opposing 'bottom' corner of the waste. The harder the material, the higher I have to start in said kerf to guarantee a good turn.

Cut is in red, and I work right-to-left.


----------



## terryR

Thanks, guys! I'll use all those tips! I've reached the point in me woodworking career where I have the tools, I have a bench, I have some wood, but I hunger for more knowledge on how to put all the above items together…

Smitty, nice graphic, BTW. And working right to left sounds better than my approach! duh, I'm a righty!


----------



## Airframer

The problem I have with mine is the handle wants to twist while cutting which contorts the blade causing it to bind very easily. I had already figured out the pull stroke but I think it is just poorly mfg'd and doesn't hold it's self together well at all.

I was looking at the one at toolsforworkwood.com . Seems decent enough but they are out of their 16 tpi skip tooth blades.


----------



## donwilwol

Yep, handle twisting defeats the purpose of the saw. Try adding a washer between the handle and the frame until your new one comes.


----------



## theoldfart

Try the FatMax from Stanley, it has small notches where the handle tightens. You may have to look at every one in the store to get one that works. Stanley QA isn't very good.


----------



## Mosquito

I've got a FatMax, and the metal indexer that's supposed to "click" in to the notches has worn enough already to no longer do any good. I don't use it as often.

I bought a cheaper jewelers saw and just use scroll saw blades. It works pretty well for me. Plus, if you can cut a straight line with a spiral blade, you can start right in the corner


----------



## bandit571

Need to find a handle pattern I can download. I have a decent saw plate, with a very UGLY handle attached









Actually, might rework both of these handles ( TOO UGLY to call them Totes)









Both plates seem to be West German made ones. Seemed to be filed as rip cut. Lots of set to them, for a change…

Now, who has a pattern I can download????


----------



## Mosquito

http://www.tgiag.com/saw-handle-scans.html

http://www.wenzloffandsons.com/faq/36-saw-kit-tech/71-saw-patterns.html

http://www.backsaw.net/cpg/thumbnails.php?album=8


----------



## bandit571

Thnk You Mos! Have two pattern printed out. Let the fun begin!


----------



## bandit571

Small saw gets the Kenyon DT saw tote, the other, larger saw will get aMarshall & Cheetam style. Need to find some lumber, now….


----------



## shampeon

If you put the blade in backwards, you can start the cut from the bottom corner, moving up, and turn it horizontal:









It makes it easier to chop out the waste, I think.


----------



## Mosquito

Not a problem. I've had those links saved for a while, looking to make myself a handsaw eventually, but haven't had the time, or spare cash lately


----------



## JustJoe

Bandit that bottom handle might look ugly, but it is original. That saw was part of a set - it would have had 6 or more different blades that would be easily removed/inserted into the one handle.


----------



## donwilwol

I think I may have the blades, just no handle!


----------



## terryR

Ian, that looks like a cool trick to try! I've made 'backwards' cuts like that with the scroll saw for Intarsia projects…


----------



## CL810

Smitty, I think it proves love is blind

And I'm guessing deaf as well. ;-)


----------



## bandit571

The "Set" is apparently long gone away. They did have another set, with it's own handle.


----------



## RGtools

Airfriamer. The coping saw from TFWW is an Olsen and it rocks. I have it and I have no desire to upgrade ever. Get the skip blades too. (I cut on the push, FYI).

Glad you like the stuff man.


----------



## TobyC




----------



## Don2Laughs

Ditto RG


----------



## Airframer

Thanks RG. I'm going to probably end up getting that one. I found some 18 tpi skip tooth blades on amazon. Should be all set.


----------



## Tim457

I got the Olson after seeing lots of recommendations for it and not seeing any vintage ones around me. Highland didn't have a skip tooth coping saw blade though.


----------



## chrisstef

Lil midday rust hunt turned up this $5 gem. 6 ppi rip.


----------



## mochoa

Wow, nice score!


----------



## theoldfart

Thumb hole; you win!


----------



## chrisstef

Its my first (blushing) ....


----------



## planepassion

Very nice score chrisstef. Intact handle horns too. That one will clean up nicely and be a great user for you.


----------



## chrisstef

Brad - its still pretty sharp too, seems like all it needs is a freshening up and a derusting. I was talking with the older gentleman in the shop where I picked it up and he was telling me that they got the saw and a bunch of other things from a guy who passed away not too long ago. He was the local guy who would sharpen saws, axes, mower blades around town. $5 a piece on an old treadle powered grinding stone.


----------



## donwilwol

Sweet!! I love those $5 thumbholes.


----------



## terryR

Stef, sweet find and great story, too. Hope you run across the treadle powered grinding stone! 

Ya know, lately, I keep telling my wife that some young guy is going to get lucky at MY estate sale! By then, the Stanley SW's will be 100 years old, the Disstons pushing 150…


----------



## planepassion

chrisstef, so you got a beauty of a vintage saw that still has a good sharpening on it from a master…Hmmm. You must have been making a lot of deposits into the karma account I'm a'thinkin. How was "the bunch of other things" the guy left that were at the shop? When you stumble upon a tool hoard like that I've found that I have to strike while the iron is hot, because going back later (I always do!) to pick over what's left just makes me cry…


----------



## terryR

+1 to Brad's philosophy. Get on it, Stef!

I'll give ya $10 for the thumbhole to help offset costs…


----------



## TobyC

I'll give ya 10.50 if you'll ship free!


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

$12.50….


----------



## DanKrager

Making offers is just a polite way of saying, "You suck!" Mine is waiting for a sharpening, then it will be posted.
DanK


----------



## donwilwol

stef, 26" or 28"?


----------



## DonBroussard

Nice acquisition there, Stef. I'm still on the lookout for my first handhole saw-not yet.

Related to saws: I picked up this saw vise today. Looks pretty good for its age and closes nice and tight. I like the nice handles on the screws too. I gave $10 for it-bought it from a friend and it wasn't worth the few bucks potentially saved to negotiate.



















The screws fold under the vise for flat storage. I'll post a few pics after I clean it up a bit.


----------



## chrisstef

Well the stone was there but ive got no home for it unfortunately. He had passed 4 years ago so there wasnt a full estate worth of stuff but i did leave my card for the guy when the hext haul comes in. This was "the warehouse" for an antiques shop. Its got all the overflow and stuff that didnt make the main shop. Its slowly becoming a local haunt for me.

Brad - i think youre right bud. I just finished reshaping and sharpening a saw, my first one. I think the old souls smiled upon me and let me dig up this old beauty. Shes gettin a soak as we speak. Hoping for an etch under the rust.

This ones not leavin the till though fellas. Its gonna fit in nicely between my 4 1/2 ppi and 10 ppi rip saws.


----------



## Tim457

Oh man I want one of those old grinding stones bad. How big is the one they're offering? Nice score on the thumbhole, stef.

I just took a standing block with some 400 wet dry to my cross cut Disston I got with my tool chest and found out its a D-8 of the same vintage as the thumbhole rip I had gotten recently. Now I have a matched set, except one is 26" and one is 28".

Other question for the 1-1-1 mix I've heard a lot of you use, is wipe on poly any different from any other can of poly on the shelf?


----------



## chrisstef

Tim - that sucker was around 20" id say with a small chunk ou of the edge. The wipe on poly is just thinned with mineral spirits to around 50/50. No real difference at all.


----------



## Tim457

makes sense, thanks. 
<--Finishing noob.

Those grinding stones used to be pretty big sometimes, three feet or more across. According to Roy Underhill though most of the ones still available are ruined because people left water sitting in the water trough and that apparently ruins the stone when it sits in it.


----------



## AnthonyReed

Nice score Stef and Don.

I'd love to see after shots of both once they are back in working order.


----------



## chrisstef

Shes getting a good soak in some CLR at the moment Tony. Ive got the tote just about scraped of the old finish as well. Need to brighten up the nuts, give her a good scrub down, finish the tote and sharpener 'er up. Im glad you said something because its rare that I take any before shots of anything. I captured this one just for you fella.


----------



## RGtools

*Don B* Airfamer has a similar vise. It strikes me as a very portable design for touching up your saws on site, the reason I say this is, that you can joint your saws with that vise.

Cool score at $10 though.


----------



## DonBroussard

Thanks, Tony & Ryan. Here's a pic of the Stover vise "in service". It's in quotes because it's staged. I only have a few files and I haven't even finished watching Brit's teaching video yet.










Just an overnight soaking in Evaporust and wipe down with a shop towel. I'm thinking about going at it with some flap wheels and then painting it with either black appliance paint or black engine paint.


----------



## chrisstef

DB - nice vice there. I think itll look killer with some fresh black paint on it. Good luck on your sharpening endeavor. Its damn satisfying.


----------



## chrisstef

D8 thumbhole got its plate cleaned up last night.

Before









After


----------



## theoldfart

Looks good Stef. I never seem to find thumbs in the wild.


----------



## Brit

Great job Stef! I bet that was a lot of hard work.


----------



## chrisstef

Thanks buddy but ya know it really wasn't bad at all. I think I knocked it out in about 45 minutes. Here's how I did it:

Scraped the heavy rust with a razor blade
Soak in CLR (calcium, lime, rust remover) for 4 hours. I ran out of evaporust.
Scrubbed with a Scotch Brite sponge (the rough side)(wear gloves, that stuffs nasty)
Washed off thoroughly with water.
Watch it flash rust.
Scrub with a drywall sanding sponge on the gritty side with some DNA (denatured alcohol).
Scrub with the other side of the drywall sanding sponge (finer grit) with DNA.
Wrap sponge in 320 grit sandpaper and scrub with DNA.
Wax.
Revel in glory.

There's a bit of an etch left behind but its really hard to pick up on camera. Shes a D8.

I just picked up a new brass bristle brush to clean the saw nuts tonight, ill be using Brasso or something close to that. The handle is scraped of grime and finish. Ill sand her down with 220, 320 tonight and apply some BLO. A quick, light jointing, and a freshening up of the teeth and ill have me a brand spanking new fresh outta da box 6 ppi Disston D8 thumbhole ripping machine.


----------



## donwilwol

Nice work Stef. You've definitely got a keeper.


----------



## AnthonyReed

That vise came out great Don.

The saw is looking fantastic Stef, nice work!

Thanks guys. Great to see the outcome.


----------



## chrisstef

Thanks fellas, so far so good. Humpty Dumpty aint back together again but will be mighty soon. Should be a really nice saw all said and done. Very little pitting to the plate. Looking forward to hearing it sing again.


----------



## ksSlim

Nice Stef. CRO2 (chromium Oxide) on a felt pad would add the bling to your great save.
I'll be interested in hoe you sharpen it, rake, fleam etc.

again Nice job. Brit should be proud. Yanks have been watching and learning.


----------



## chrisstef

Slim - my sharpening plan for this one is gonna be no fleam and 6 - 7 degrees of rake. It should be a fairly aggressive rip saw that will fit nicely in between the other 2 rip saws i have. I just finished a 10 ppi with 8 degrees of rake and ive got a 4.5 ppi saw that will get 10 degrees of rake which should help it to be a little easier in starting the cut. The way ive read things is the more rake the easier the cut is but it makes it less aggressive.


----------



## StumpyNubs

Just checking in to see how the saw folks are getting along. Everything seems to be in order. Carry on.


----------



## donwilwol

Thanks for stopping by Stumpy.


----------



## waho6o9

Stumpy approved.

All is well with the Universe.

Saw away.


----------



## Brit

I'm on holiday this week and the wife isn't. We all know what that means. Party time in the wood pile. Yesterday I used four of the saws I sharpened, making a monstrosity out of 2×4s for this years Christmas carnival.

I also dismantled a steel-backed dovetail saw that is going to get a full restoration. However, I have question for the esteemed panel. When I removed the back and plate assembly from the handle, I could see that the portion of the back that fits into the handle showed signs of being 'blued' originally. I haven't quite made my mind up yet, but I was toying with the idea of blueing the back. Is cold blueing worth doing and how easily does it scratch off? Any product recommendations?


----------



## Brit

This is the saw back in question.


----------



## chrisstef

Thats a nice one Andy. If i remember correctly gun blueing might bring that back for ya. Don's a gun guy. He might have some more info on it for ya.


----------



## donwilwol

Andy, cold blue applications work pretty well. I typically used Brownell's stuff, but almost any name brand should work. An internet search should bring up lots of help, but follow the instructions and it should be fine.


----------



## Brit

Thanks Don. I spent most of yesterday evening reading forum posts and watching YouTube clips of the various products available. The more I think about it though, the more I am leaning towards not bluing it. It will look like the odd one out, since none of my other saws are blued. I think I'll go for a shinny plate with a matt finish on the spine.


----------



## chrisstef

Andy - where do you find all the back saws? Ive only found 2 in the wild here. You gobbling up the world stock or what buddy?


----------



## donwilwol

Good choice Andy.


----------



## Brit

*Stef* - I get them off ebay.co.uk. I don't buy crap (at least not knowingly). On average there is probably only one saw every 6 weeks that I would consider buying. Once I decide on one though, my bidding strategy usually dictates it will come home to daddy.


----------



## chrisstef

Ahhh I see. I thought you were seeking them out in the wild. I may have to start haunting ebay and break my virginity on it. You've created a monster inside me that cannot be controlled. Ive got the taste of a sharp saw and now I cant relent on my search for brass backs and thumbholes.


----------



## donwilwol

Stef, I've only seen one brass back in the wild. It was overpriced, but I wish I'd bought it. They are hard to find here in the NE.


----------



## chrisstef

Yea theyre a fickle beast around here Don. Ill get my mitts on one soon enough. Ive got many a year (I hope) of rust hunting for the elusive brass back.


----------



## Brit

Funny how things are different around the world. In the UK, backsaws are predominantly brass backed whereas in the US they're predominantly steel backed. In the UK, it is extremely rare that you find a backsaw longer than 14". In the US it seems you can get 16" or even 18" backsaws without too much trouble. Miter saws are rare here also.


----------



## TobyC

Brass spines were the traditional English preference, steel was used most of the time in the US. Disston made some with brass, but I think they were primarily for export.

Where the heck have you been Andy? I haven't seen you anywhere accept a couple of posts "Down Under".


----------



## TobyC

And what happened to need2boat? Last post was 76 days ago!


----------



## racerglen

My latest find, D-8 Canadian with a very clear etch


















$15, and it's still sharp, a 5 toother..
some cleanup required but not too bad ;-)


----------



## chrisstef

Ohh yea. All the thumbholes comin out to play! Great score Glen. I hope she cleans up all purty for ya.


----------



## racerglen

So far so good Stef, got some scraping on the handle last night and the paint smears/drips are gone, went after
the etch with foil and autosol, came up prety good.


----------



## racerglen

A salute to DonW









My version of his split nut screwdriver thingie.

















I found the handle in a drawer, not sure what wood but it's hard, copper pipe for the ferrel, and after all that
guess what, I don't have any split nut saws..could have sworn that brass backed backsaw had 'em..
blush ;-)


----------



## donwilwol

Sweet!


----------



## Brit

*Toby* said: "*Where the heck have you been Andy? I haven't seen you anywhere accept a couple of posts "Down Under"*."

I've been doing a bit of woodworking on my week off Toby and now I'm restoring a dovetail saw. Tomorrow, I hope to make a rasping lathe so I can turn a hammer handle.

*Glen* - Nice find on the D8. If that's 5tpi, how big are the teeth on the saw behind it in the photo? That thing's a beast. Can we see it?


----------



## terryR

Glen, thanks for sharing that split nut driver. A very different approach. Looks like your pins could be filed as sharp as needed for different size nuts?

After our new chicken coop is built, I had plans for a new split nut driver that will fit these narrow-slot nuts I have on an 1870's Shelton & Sons brass backer (already sharp, just needs a tote). Time to draw a few wild design ideas, and let the nut shape my tool…

...no, I didn't say "let some nut shape my tool" 
LOL


----------



## racerglen

Not at home now Andy so no pics just now, but it's a 46" one man crosscut saw that I'm finaly getting to.
It's close to 2.5 PPI/TPI, been trying to figure out it's point of origin, posibly Sweden, a neighbour gave it to me a decade or more ago and other than one trial run it's been wall art.
The tooth pattern makes it around or prior to 1900, that's when the makers changed to the more modern style of teeth.
The nuts n' bolts and such of the handle are in the bath with some plane parts just now, and it was under that that I found some stamps, possibly like I said, Sweden, but the handle had been bolted dow hard making them even harder to read. It's drilled/stamped for either the "T" type handle it came to me with or the huge regular saw type handle/tote.


----------



## racerglen

Terry, it's from Don's posting a few yards (miles?)back here on using a Stanley utility knife blade for the driver part.
I'm no Stef, but the temptation was there ;-)


----------



## terryR

Yeah, Glen, I actually tried Don's version real quick like…
...cut my finger nice and straight. 

I'm afraid of razor blades…had a beard since I was 17!


----------



## racerglen

I used a couple clamps and a dremel to do the deed, and was 
"on edge" the whole time, thought I'd either wreck the blade or put a new (red) color on my bench thoughout.
;-)
(discovered I didn't have ANY of the two hump blades in my shop, three utility knifes and all were the three slot type..My 1st ever purchase at our new Target store right in the midst of theie store opening staff rally on a Saturday morning, don't know how I keep catching those, 1st Home Despot, then Wally world, now Target, shouldn't the staff be cheered up BEFORE the store opens ?)


----------



## racerglen

Andy, just loosly put things back together with the big boy, not done cleanup yet, and haven't decided about the wood, leave it as is or replace it with something else.



























Each of those floot mat squares is 2' x 2', so as I said, a big boy !


----------



## Brit

Thanks Glen. That things a beast!


----------



## terryR

Nice restore, Glen, I cannot imagine how many boxes of sandpaper you went through! 

Looks like it had a proper tote at some point?


----------



## racerglen

Thats what I thought too Terry, amazingly no sandpaper has been sacrificed in this so far, prety much what you see is how I got it for the blade. The big screw and wingnut had an evaporust bath, and some foil and Autosol were used in the area just above the red line you added, that's where I found the faint etching that seems to indicate Sweden.
My only regret is destroying the bolt that ataches the handle shaft to the blade, a square head type that's now a hex head grade 8, BUT the square nut did survive and mates up to the new era incorect bolt.


----------



## bandit571

Did a "One-stop Rust Hunt" today…

Turned down a Liberty Bell 129, and bought a Stanley #31 for $15

couple of block plane parts, just need to go buy a Buck Brothers iron for it( $3 for the new in box iron, $1.50 for the 220)

saw a bunch of egg-beater type drills , and a brace, they wanted way too much for any of them ($22 for the smallest?)

miter box with two back saws, backsaws were just short of being butter knife in sharpness, $20? PASS!

A few power tool sets $150 and up, PASS

Did get a saw set, will clean up and post later….($3)


----------



## bandit571

Picture of the "USA 98" saw set?









Rather a simple little thing, sitting on the rest of today's finds…


----------



## carguy460

Hey saw guru's…I really want to sharpen up all of my saws (only 12 of them!), and have been wanting to give it a shot for quite some time, but I have yet to stumble across a saw set that is worth buying. Well, now I'm getting impatient, and I really need one of my rip saws sharpened so I can get started ripping down lumber for my upcomming bench build. Soooo question is, could I get away with touching up the teeth without adjusting the set?

The saw cuts OK right now, but I'll be ripping something like 8 8' 2x material, so sharper would be better I'm thinking…but I don't want the saw to be unuseable after I've touched up the teeth because I screwed the set up or something. Any advice here?


----------



## donwilwol

You should be able to get 3-5 sharpening's before a re-set is needed, especially if they are just touch ups.


----------



## chrisstef

What Don said. From what ive read some rip saws even came with no set. Im only one saw deep in my sharpening experience but a rip saw is reallt dependent on the rake angle and not much else brsides that and sharp teeth. More rake - easier to start but less aggressive. Less rake - harder to start but more aggressive. Theres a balance to be had somewhere in there. Not sure where just yet though.


----------



## Brit

What Stef said.


----------



## carguy460

As expected, solid advice! I do not know how many sharpenings this saw has had since the last set since it was inherited. It has some set to the teeth, though not much. I will get pics and post shortly just because…I think I will try to freshen up these teeth if time allows this weekend. Thanks Don and Stef….and Andy for reenforcing stefs post! If Andy says its good advice, it must be!


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

I may have an extra stanley 42, send me a pm if interested.


----------



## bandit571

Ever hear of a Morris trademark saw set?







from 1896?









Just $3 today at a yard sale….


----------



## TobyC

Morrill?


----------



## terryR

Well, my hurry to sharpen a vintage x-cut saw just got squelched…









The wife brought home a 20" Panel saw from LN tonight, filed cross. It was an Anniversary gift that was on backorder, and she had it delivered to her office to help surprise me!

Think I'll keep her!


----------



## bandit571

Could be! it was hard to read the name after the i. I could make out the MORRI…..and the trademark part.

It is stamped in the handle as "USA 96", would that be a date made?


----------



## theoldfart

*Terry*, got a keeper there, (the wife that is). Guess you should keep the saw too. Happy anniversary!
PS how many?


----------



## Mosquito

Nice Terry. Which one? 8 or 12?


----------



## terryR

...strangely enough…It's our 8 year anniversary, and the saw is 8ppi.
cool


----------



## waho6o9

Congratulations Terry on both counts my friend.


----------



## Mosquito

lol that is pretty cool. Congrats on both 

I've got an 8, now I want a rip, and then a 12… Either that or I sell it, and get some different ones… I like matching lol


----------



## chrisstef

Yea Terry! I drop hints around my wife but nothins come through just yet. What was your strategy? Gotta learn this yankee some alabama a$$ki$$in


----------



## waho6o9

Maybe make what Terry makes, like this cool spoon and say
this is for you my honey.


----------



## terryR

Stef, I'm just lucky sometimes! 

This is the first year we really swapped gifts…she asked for a list since she knew I wanted specific hand tools. Not just a chisel, but a ray iles mortiser…not just any saw, the x-cut missing from my till…and a plane maker's float, also from LN. Although, she skipped over the McLaren P1…bummer…


----------



## terryR

Waho, that's awesome!  Wife certainly gets first pick of finished spoons, baskets, bowls, knives…
LOL


----------



## TobyC

bandit571

They went out of business in the 1960s so that would have to be 1896s…. BUT…. US tool companies didn't start adding USA to their address until around 1900 or later. They made the Morrill Apex #95, but I don't see a 96 listed.
In other words, I don't know.


----------



## Tim457

Glen that Crosscut saw is awesome. Newer stye crosscut saws are easier to find, but one man rip saws that big aren't. You could file that rip and saw up your own lumber from logs. 

Jason, I wasn't finding any decent vintage saw sets and it wasn't something I wanted to mess around with so I bought the ones from Highland Woodworking. They seem quite well made. Tools for working wood I think has the same ones and a deal if you buy both. Like the other guys said you don't need to set until the saw starts binding in the cut after you sharpen it.

And Terry, that's awesome.

I also got another D8 thumbhole rip, but it's not in as good condition.


----------



## Brit

Congrats Terry. LN make lovely panel saws. I was amazed how light they were when I first held one. Enjoy it.


----------



## terryR

Thanks, guys. All I can advise, is to buy stock in LN! 

Andy, you are correct about the astonishing weight of the saw. I had no idea! The lil 20" panel saw feels almost flimsy compared to a 14" heavy-backed tenon saw. Although that's certainly comparing apples and pomegranates. Gotta cut some wood today!!!


----------



## racerglen

So, borrowed a nephew's eyes and the big boy is a Sandvick but "Fabrique en suede" 
Hunh ? Swedesh saw, but stamped made in Sweden in French ?
Export to Quebec, France, another colony ?
My crosscut book says Germany developed the more modern tooth designs in the 1400's but the Pyramid shape of this saw lingered elswhere into the early 1900's.
Should see if Robin Lee's lurking, the book I've got was a Lee Valley reprint a "few" years ago, U.S. Forest Service/dept of agriculture, bit of history on the saws and how to sharpen all tooth types, also shows my type one man with the full tote like a regular hand saw, just bigger, as well as a upright handle on the other end so, one man or not, two could use it as well.


----------



## Brit

*SO NEAR AND YET SO FAR*

I've been restoring a nice little 19ppi 10" dovetail saw by C. Garlick & Sons which I was hoping to finish today.









One of the split nuts had other ideas. Bummer!



You win some, you lose some.


----------



## chrisstef

Geez Andy you're so far ahead on that restore that a busted split nut should be over looked. Youre still winning.

Its come out gorgeous. Ya been lucky enough to sharpen it yet? 19 ppi might make ya blind lol.

How do you work the inside of the tote grip? Files?


----------



## donwilwol

Bummer!!


----------



## Brit

No I haven't sharpened it yet Stef, I'm still trying to find the teeth. LOL. The smallest I've sharpened so far is 16ppi. I believe I can do it now that I have a good feel for using a saw file, but the question is whether I can find a saw file that will sharpen 19ppi properly.


----------



## chrisstef

Seriously youre gonna have to get a metal toothpick milled to file that. Should cut some buttery smooth dovetails though.


----------



## terryR

Awesome restore, Andy! too bad on the split nut, although I have a feeling the fix is already in the works…

Stef, I've used rasps and files for the inside of the totes…whatever I had that would fit…waited 10 months for one of these to be in stock at TFWW…









Well worth $50 if you're planning to shape as many totes as I am, IMO. AND they are still in stock.


----------



## Brit

*Stef* - Sorry I just realised I didn't answer your question about how I work the inside of the tote grip. I use a small half-round file and a half-round needle file to get into the tight bit or to define a lamb's tongue. The rest is done with sandpaper.


----------



## donwilwol

Ok Terry, I'm can't order a $50 rasp 'till I've seen it in a blog.


----------



## chrisstef

No sweat andy and thanks for the expertise. I got the saw sickness and its runnin deep right now. That shadow line youve been able to keep is awesome. The last tote i did i started to realize that it aint just sanding and scraping away that old finish. Gotta keep subtle details like that. Good stuff brother.

Terry - sweet lookin rasp there man. I havent tried my hand at tote making yet and the project list is deeeep right now. One day.


----------



## Brit

Will this do Don? It's the Liogier version, but works the same as the Gramercy one. I actually think the Liogier version is better, but I haven't used either so I might be talking out of my backside.


----------



## donwilwol

No Andy. I was looking for one from Terry. 

I bought a set of these. Not bad for $12 at amazon. I know their not a $50 rasp, but they work pretty well.


----------



## Brit

Nice rifflers Don.


----------



## terryR

Don, sorry, I just bought the fancy curved 'Saw Handle Maker's Rasp' about 2 weeks ago. Since then…no totes. Just toting baggage to Boston and back.  However, I have struggled with so many flat rasps while working the inside of saw totes, I'm certain the curved one will save me time and band-aids.

How about $200 worth of rasps used in this mallet blog?









http://lumberjocks.com/terryR/blog/32401

The smaller is a Gramercy with a fine cut, the larger is a cabinet maker's rasp from Auriou for more aggressive removal. Expensive, yes. A pleasure to work wood with, yes again. Night and day difference from a machine made rasp!


----------



## terryR

Don, if you wait for me to make a tote, then write the blog, the curved rasp will be out of stock again at TFWW. I think you should buy one now just in case! If you don't like it, re-sell it to Stef. Plus the Liogier is nearly $70! IF you hurry and buy the $50 rasp, you'll have enough left over for a few more 18's.


----------



## Brit

There's no faulting that logic Terry. LOL.


----------



## chrisstef

Ill be sellin friggin kidneys soon …


----------



## theoldfart

Yea, two kidneys is over rated , one 'll do.


----------



## SamuelP

Anyone know where to get a set of four dome nuts for a saw tote?


----------



## theoldfart

Sam, Bad Ax Tool Works.
http://www.badaxetoolworks.com


----------



## TobyC

For a saw HANDLE.




























From here.


----------



## theoldfart

Toby, looks sweet


----------



## theoldfart

Another part to the sharpening puzzle:









Gift from a neighbor.


----------



## chrisstef

Nice Kevin. Im thinking about starting the hunt for one of those clamshells myself. I bumped into some NOS disston saw nuts today at an antique shop. I passed on them at $20 for 4 1/2 but I know where they are if I need em. If it had a medallion in the box or they were split nuts I would have scooped em.

Also saw a nifty old wooden saw vice and a brass veneer scraper improperly labeled as a pasta cutter lol.


----------



## donwilwol

Stef, I've got one of those jointers. I use it, but still think one like Andy's shop made would work better.


----------



## chrisstef

Yea I can imagine a little bit of deflection of the jointer holder jammy isn't as long as the file is. I copied Andy's shop made one and it work very well. Damn that vintage bug that's bitten me.


----------



## donwilwol

if you've already made one, then you'll need the vintage, just because …..... And you can usually find them really cheap if you look enough. I'll keep my eyes open now that I know you need one!


----------



## chrisstef

Right on brother Don! If you find one, we can swap something for it. I have no idea what I could ever come up with that you don't all ready own 3 of but ill do my darnedest to try and find it.


----------



## donwilwol

sometimes 3 just ain't enough!!


----------



## chrisstef

Sharpened up a 12" backsaw.

Rip it good.


----------



## donwilwol

You're a sharpening fanatic now Stef. You'll be surpassing Andy here pretty quick.


----------



## chrisstef

Ive still got a ways to go but thanks Don.

Question - this backsaw had a wiggle in the plate. I straightened it out with some firm taps to the spine in a heel/toe fashion. Then i put the handle back on and i noticed it binding in the cut. Sighting it its got a banana in it now. Could the saw nuts cranked down to hard or them being too loose cause that?


----------



## donwilwol

Which way is the banana. If its top to bottom and fades to the front, then maybe the nuts. If its front to back the I don't think so. It sound more like its not sitting in the spine right yet.


----------



## chrisstef

Front to back for sure Don. Maybe the handle is pushing up on the back of the spine? It was a tough fit.


----------



## donwilwol

I will close a vice so the blade moves through and tap on the spline from the underside sometimes it helps. On my metal vice I can only hit the end of the saw, but the leg nice will work farther up. I would think just an end tap would help.


----------



## chrisstef

Roger that Don. Thanks for the advice bruddah.


----------



## TobyC

Read


----------



## chrisstef

Yea Toby. I read that and did just as it said then i put the handle on and it tweaked again.


----------



## lysdexic

^ and did it work? Or did you do the re-tensioning and still have said problem. I did a retensioning on my BadAxe saw and it worked perfectly.


----------



## chrisstef

It worked the first time around Scotty. I think when i put the handle back on it lifted the spine up at the heel but not 100% sure. Ill get it fixed though, not scared.


----------



## terryR

Awesome job, Stef! TerryR is very jealous when another student surpasses me with skills! 

Do you think the kerf inside the tote is crooked? If the handle being attached bends the plate?

EDIT…Oh, just saw your last post…mortise out that tote to fit the back.


----------



## RGtools

I finally got the kinks knocked out of my carcass saw and got it sharpened. I am in love.


----------



## chrisstef

Further investigation leads me to believe that the handle doesnt fit right. A hairline crack right where it meets the spine. Corrective action soon.

Hope it lights a fire for ya Terry. The speed which you pick things up at makes me think it wont be long until your making metal dust.

RG - sweet feeling aint it.


----------



## Brit

*Stef* - Boy you have been busy. Great work!

I've restored about 15 backsaws and about 10 of them had a wave in the plate. It was never very much, but enough to make a difference. Out of those 10, about half of them had a bent back and that was the main cause of the wave. Now whenever I see a wave in a plate, I first check that the spine isn't bent by laying a set square against both sides of the plate where the plate enters the spine. If you can rock the straight edge on one side of the plate, then the back is bent and you need to straigten that first before you try to remove a simple wave in the plate. I do this by laying the back on a couple of hardwood blocks and giving it a whack with a deadblow mallet at the fulcrum point on the convex side. I sneak up on the right amount of force and re-check the plate with the set square after each blow. Steel backs take a bit more force than brass backs.










With the knowledge that he back is straight, you can now address any remaining wave in the plate using your chosen method. If you can't seem to get rid of the wave, then removing and refitting the back of the saw will usually sort it out.


----------



## chrisstef

Hmm. Good stuff Andy. Ill have to get some pics of whats going on with it later. Ill use a square and take a peek as instructed. I wish my son didnt have me pinned down or id do it now but i dont dare move him lol. Hes out cold on my chest and im kinda lovin it. We'll get this saw figured out yet.


----------



## CL810

*Ryan* - that's a peach!


----------



## SamuelP

Super excited about this 16 inch back saw from Joe at Second Chance Saw Works, AKA justfine.


----------



## SamuelP

Big mistake! It is not justfine.

Need2boat is the owner of secondchance saws.

I was delious with saw dust. Excuse me.


----------



## donwilwol

Great addition Sam.


----------



## chrisstef

Slick looking saw there Sam! Im in need of a couple longer backsaws myself. On the hunt baby.


----------



## racerglen

Came across a 5' two man crosscut yesterday, old boy with handle and a coating of rust, 30 bucks, nah, got enough wall art thank yew.


----------



## Mosquito

Glad I never bid on that one Sam lol I watched it for a few days though


----------



## SamuelP

Thank you Mos. It was right at my limit. Nice and heavy. Cuts very straight.


----------



## Mosquito

Yeah, I want to pick up a 14" x-cut to match the rip that I got from him in June. Excellent saw, though the plate on mine had a slight bend to it, it still works fine


----------



## CL810

Be sure to take a look at Derek's latest.


----------



## lateralus819

As per Don, heres my G.H. Bishop saw i just cleaned up.

Heres a G.H. Bishop hand saw, not sure of the "style/type??" It's missing 1 tooth and needs sharpening. One of the saws has a writting note that says "needs sharpening" Who knows how old that is!

The blade says "9S MOORE BROS EMPIRE STATE SAW WORKS JAMESTOWN, NY SPECIAL STEEL" There is one more line below it but i cant make it out. 




































Also have this GH bishop. A few newer disstons which im not sure what to do with quite yet, ugly handles…










This was a lot i got from my grandfather. I wasn't sure about refurbing it as it was his, but i'd rather use clean it and get use out of it then let it sit like this.


----------



## donwilwol

one tooth missing will not hurt. They will be great users.


----------



## lateralus819

Hope so, i thoroughly enjoy using handsaws. Actually trying to find a Dovetail saw at the moment, out of my price range for now though.


----------



## chrisstef

Stef likey the panel saw. Come in real handy for those wide cross cuts bigger than the miter saw can handle.


----------



## lateralus819

The 2nd panel saw will probably go to my uncle, he wants my fiance to paint a picture on it, reason he liked this one was cause of the wheat detail.


----------



## Tim457

Sweet job on that restore. "he wants my fiance to paint a picture on it", say it ain't so!


----------



## TobyC

lateralus819,

Did you test them by cutting the backs off of your chairs?


----------



## Brit

Nice job lateralus819.

Toby - You're killing me man.


----------



## lateralus819

Toby C, no thats what happens when a 4 year old thinks its fun to sit the wrong way on a chair and rock lol.


----------



## Brit

4 years old! What are you feeding them, spinach? )


----------



## lateralus819

Lol he was facing the back and rocking it and it fell and the spindles shattered.


----------



## chrisstef

Lat …. maybe cut down on the proteins? Kids lookin pretty beefy brah.


----------



## donwilwol

Cool saw. $4. I just couldn't leave it. I figured worst case I could give Stef some real practice. But seriously, any idea why it may have been sharpened this way?


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Got this today. Medallion is WS, no stamp on spine. Dead straight, sharp, and 26"L with 5" under the spine. $15…










Bad pic, but we're driving right now (not behind the wheel, lol)


----------



## chrisstef

Don - i dunno bro. Gonna take me a while to figure that monstrosity out. The handles well worth 4 beans tho. I cant fathom why it would look that way. Why even have teeth at the heel?

Nice score Smitty. Ive got a long ass miter saw deep in the cue like that. Heavy as hell isnt it.


----------



## DanKrager

DonW, those look like rip teeth at the heel. Is it a combination rip-crosscut setup? I've never seen one like that… If you're ripping thin stock, you don't need much stroke.
DanK


----------



## theoldfart

Smitty, I'll probably sound idiotic but I liked using that type of saw for cutting my bench tenons. The extra weight offsets the cross cut filing.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Don - Fed into the Foley??


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Kevin - Kinda like the Bad Axe is selling, just for Roubo builders? Not idiotic at all, use what works! It'd make a great Uber-Tenon cutter.


----------



## Brit

*Don* - I think the previous owner had a dodgy doner kebab before sharpening it and he only managed to get that far before it kicked in. He spent the rest of the day calling Huey on the big white telephone and never got around to finishing it.

*Smitty* - That thing's a beast.


----------



## donwilwol

Nice find for $15 Smitty.

I had about the same thoughts Andy. You just said it more colorful than I could have.


----------



## planepassion

Hmm Don. Perhaps the owner used the rear part to start the cut. Normally, you don't use the rear part of the saw plate for the actual cutting. So the owner may have modified it.

A previous owner of the Disston No. 12 I rehabbed filed the top spine near the tip. The teeth are fine which suggests to me that the owner used it to start cuts, or to make fine crosscuts. Don't know why he did that but think that it suited his style of work.










The metal plate alone on the handle makes it worth more than the bucks you plopped down. Plus the novelty of the filing is going to make a great conversation piece for some time to come. Are you going to make it a user?


----------



## chrisstef

Interesting read on that Disston 12 there Brad. Im working on one myself. I noticed that you have a "V" underneath the handle, the one im working on has an "X". As soon as I pull it from the saw vice im going to have to try and see if I can hear that ring. Im pretty excited to get it back in working order.


----------



## Brit

So are you winning with that No.12 now then Stef. Have you tamed the cows & calves?


----------



## chrisstef

Indeed I am winning Andy, thanks for your help in the matter. I went along and attacked the larger cows first to get all of my flats about the same size with a little bit of left / right pressure on the file. I pinpointed that as my issue the first time around. Im about 1/2 way through the reshaping process. My tooth spacing is now much better, and even, and the gullets are following suit at a consistent depth. I did find out that my wife considers saw sharpening the most annoying thing I can do while she is watching TV in the living room above the shop lol. She's now pushing for a complete stand alone shop if and when we move. Bonus!

I'll still need to rework the tote on this saw, the upper horn had been snapped off in a really funny place. Its gonna be interesting when I have to chop out a big square and mend the busted horn.


----------



## bandit571

OK, newbie with a saw set question.

The old old I have seems to bottomout in use, no matter what setting I set it on. Just tried it out on a 5 pointer rip saw. Even down at "4" didn't show any results. Saw does have some set remaining, though. Went ahead and filed the teeth for rip cut.

Could the plunger have been turned around? Just about any setting I tried was the same result, plunger bottomed out. This is a "Morril" two handed set. Am I doing something wrong?


----------



## TobyC

Measure the set it currently has, might be already there.


----------



## planepassion

Smitty-congrats on the 26×5 pickup for $15. That's a great deal and it should perform for you. I found in my search for a mitersaw mate for my miterbox that 5-inchers weren't that easy to come by.

Christteff do share pics of your No. 12 when you get her finished. You'll love the distinct ring to it as well


----------



## chrisstef

Bandito - id say leave the set as it is, because its a rip saw you dont need much at all. Some cane without any set from the factory. Give it a test run and see how you like it. You can always fall back and add some set.


----------



## bandit571

A few views









working out of my "new" saw vise









one foot at a time. Then they just hang around









waiting their turn at the next project









Yep, they all just hang around the Dungeon Shop









Just a few screws into some joists..


----------



## Brit

Remember this one where I broke one of the saw bolts? Well I managed to find a replacement. It took a bit of finessing to make it fit, but it worked out OK in the end.

I sharpened it at 19ppi (the smallest teeth I've tackled yet). I shaped the teeth with a Vallorbe needle file cut 4 and sharpened the teeth with a Vallorbe needle file cut 6 after setting the teeth. I used the cork from a bottle of Cava for a file handle. The needle files were so much smoother than a cut 2 needle file or a 4" double extra slim file.










I tried to get a close-up of the teeth, but my little point and shoot distorts the image a bit in macro mode.










IT LIVES!!!


----------



## chrisstef

Holy crap Andy, 19 ppi and you lived to tell the tale. Ive got a headache just thinkin about it. You really do some slick work on those saws.

May I present to you my newest high honour award:


----------



## donwilwol

How you make them look so good amazes me Andy.


----------



## TerryDowning

What Don Said^

How you do dat??


----------



## Brit




----------



## TobyC

Pictures are too small on this forum!

Beautiful saw Andy.


----------



## TobyC

So why is there so much wasted space on the sides of this forum?


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Huzzah, Andy! Wow, what a fine saw… Absolutely amazing work…


----------



## Brit

Thanks Smitty.


----------



## TerryDowning

Yeah, I had a feeling
Guess my elbows aren't greasy enough yet


----------



## DanKrager

Man that is a beautiful result! I've learned from the few restorations I've attempted, my heart is in the wood, not the metal that works the wood! 
DanK


----------



## Tim457

Question for you guys. How careful do I need to be to get the last of the finish off a handle I'm re-doing? The saw isn't particularly valuable (1896-1917 D-8 thumbhole), but I'd still like to leave as much of the patina as I can. I've sanded what I can see of the finish and I think it was shellac, it came off very begrudgingly with some alcohol.


----------



## TobyC

Stripper. (no not that kind!)


----------



## chrisstef

Tim, id argue the valuable point. I just seen one sell for almost $200 all clean and sharpened. I leave most of the patina on the saw handle I refurb. I try and scrape the heavy topcoat off and hit it with some 220 and 320 then blo it. It typically leaves the dents, dings and marks behind.


----------



## donwilwol

I agree with Stef. Valuable is perceptive, but a thumbhole distton needs to be pretty bad to not bring $50 and it's not uncommon to see them go for a couple hundred bucks.

Edit, and depending on current condition, I do the same restore Stef described.Andy seems to be the only one to. Be able to make them look pristine.


----------



## WayneC

Anyone need saw nuts?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Hand-Saw-Medallion-Sawnut-42-pc-Lot-Disston-Atkins-More-/281155731486?hash=item417630001e


----------



## donwilwol

Wayne, doesn't everyone need saw nuts?


----------



## Tim457

Thanks guys, I'm definitely sanding the minimum I can get away with to leave the dings and color but get the finish off. It was cracking and uneven. Since I read somewhere that shellac was an original finish on Disston's I've been considering going with that instead of the BLO I was going to use.

I guess I was thinking the value was lower when I saw one sell for around $30 in slightly better condition than mine, and mine only has a couple small chips out of the handle.


----------



## Tim457

All those saw nuts that I can see are either WS or after 1950 Disstons.


----------



## chrisstef

Tim ive had really good luck in scraping the old finish off with a really small card scraper. I can typically get it done in under a half hour with a scraper. The only spot I have trouble with is inside the hand hole at the bottom.


----------



## GMatheson

I went to Lee Valley yesterday and along with some other little items I picked up this little can of tallow. It's supposed to be a good lubricant for saw blade. For the $3 I thought I would give it a try. Does anyone have any experience with using this on their saws?

Here is the Lee Valley link


----------



## CL810

Here is what Chris Schwarz had to say about it.


----------



## JustJoe

I've never used any lube on my saws, but I know a lot of my wooden moulding planes have been wiped with tallow sometime in the past because when I get to planing real fast and it heats up you can smell it. It's not the most pleasant odor, at least for me. The closest I can describe it is if you cook a burger and leave the fat sitting in the pan overnight, it's almost that rancid smell you get in the morning. When they're sitting cold on the shelf though they have no odor.


----------



## Brit

If you like saws, you'll love these. Check 'em out guys.

http://www.forums.woodnet.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=6077985&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=all&vc=1


----------



## chrisstef

Hummina hummmina hummina ^


----------



## Tim457

"I went to Lee Valley yesterday" 
Bastard. Though they do run free shipping every once in a while, it's just not the same as being able to walk in there.

Those are pretty sweet Andy. I like the Montague Woodrough with the raker mixed with triangular teeth.


----------



## TobyC

Looks familiar. (smiley here)


----------



## donwilwol

holy smokes Andy!!


----------



## GMatheson

After looking at those saws, for some reason I wish I had them all in my yet to be made till. A very impressive collection indeed.


----------



## TobyC

Saw filing.


----------



## Tim457

Nice link Toby. It's a rather different approach than I've learned. I wonder how a rip saw filed the way described on the first page with slope to the file would compare to the horizontal method that's more familiar. I didn't have time to read all six pages, maybe that's in there.


----------



## TobyC

I've never done it so I can't say, I've always filed level.


----------



## chrisstef

Slope filing seems intimidating and i feel like it would lead to calves and cows the next time u sharpen


----------



## Tugboater78

Question.. rust hunting in my parts is very scarce, and id like to acquire a good set of backsaws. Panel saws are plentiful to find. Been eyeballing LN and Veritas, but pullin the trigger for either is a tough decision. Any thoughts or advice? I wouldnt mind gettin hold of some fixeruppers, and i want to learn to sharpen and such. Fi acially itt is gonna be a bit before i can do so.


----------



## donwilwol

Justin, I've got a fixer upper you can have for shipping cost.

Its Tho & Tillison shown here. http://lumberjocks.com/replies/653680
The handle is cracked, and it needs 1 saw nut (I don't have this kind at the moment, or I'd send it along)

The plate is badly pitted, but it works. Its 16" x 4".

I've cleaned it up from the pictures, but it still needs some work, and eventually you'd probably want to buy a new plate.


----------



## TobyC

GET IT DUDE!!!! Nice saw and nice gesture, never look a gift horse in the mouth.


----------



## chrisstef

Ive got the Veritas set of carcass saws and i like em. If youre feelin impatient id vouch for those. Id also take yoda up on that backsaw to learn how to get an old saw back in working order.


----------



## chrisstef

Shaping complete on the Disston 12. Id say ive got 3 hours in on it so far but well worth the time spent getting good repitition of gullet depth and rake. Might get around to setting and jointing later tonight.


----------



## Tugboater78

Aye, pm'd him, be a good start to fixing one up for sure. Been reading on brit and others blogs on how to fettle them and wanna try my hand. I am to the point i need a few good users as my current handsaws are dull and or leave a rough edge i have to clean up. I did invest in a blue box ryoba, which does a good job once u learn how to use it.

Thanks Don, i owe you!


----------



## donwilwol

Its a Sandvik. Anybody know anything about it? It cost me a buck, so I'm good either way. I thought the engraving was cool and the brass nuts are different.


----------



## DonBroussard

@DonW-There's a pretty good discussion on identifying and/or dating Sandvik's here on Saw Mill Creek's site. One member has some good example of a Sandvik 270 with the dragon tote here. There's also some other examples with links in that thread. Might be some good information to you there. Also, can you see any engraving or stamp on your saw plate?


----------



## TobyC

They are actually excellent saws, they just don't look like what we're used to seeing.

Read this.


----------



## Wally331

Awesome saw don, it's too bad they put such a nice carving on that blocky of a handle.

I managed to fix up my disston backsaw for the most part, still need to get some saw nuts of the proper size, all I have right now is the medallion.









I also picked up two very nice panel saws at an estate sale, one is a brown's no 3, I believe made by disston, or at least the keystone saw works, and the other is a George H. Bishop saw out of Cincinnati. Both with nibs, and both will be excellent users.









To finish it off I also picked up a keen kutter no.88, a clone of the disston d-8, I think this is gonna be one awesome saw once I get it sharpened up. There's really not much info online about keen kutter's line of saws.









For those three saws it was something like 9 bucks, so a pretty decent deal. I got a nice millers falls no 7 ratcheting brace aswell for another couple of bucks.


----------



## TobyC

Not really carving on the Sandvik, the design is pressed in. I actually like the plastic ones better!


----------



## SamuelP

Justin- I was in the same spot you are. I realy wanted a set of back saws. I found a 12" keystone at the flea market for 3the bucks, a 50sa era Disston 14" at an antique store for $5 and then I splurged and got restored 16" Disston from second chance saw works, came hand sharpened and cuts like butter. The later model disstons and Keystones you run into are still realy sharp. It was night and day when I cleaned and waxed the plate on my other two.

Keep looking and dont disregard somthing because it is not a designer brand. If it is sharp, it will cut.


----------



## grfrazee

@Wally, I won an ebay auction with some 90 or so saw nuts awhile back. PM me with the size you need and I can see if I have a couple to send.


----------



## chrisstef

So last time I saw my aunt from Jersey we got to talking about antiques and rust, shes got a soft spot for that kind of stuff too. SO just a few minutes ago my wife got a facebook message from said aunt about a handful of old saws for sale down by her. Besides the thumbhole what else do you fellas see?










Fingers crossed that she can score the deal for me and ship em up the coast. Take that Don Yoda, I gots my own little elves out there


----------



## lysdexic

Besides the thumbhole what else do you fellas see?

Red picinic table.


----------



## lysdexic

THe shiny one is a D-7 I think.


----------



## chrisstef

wise a$$ ^

I know I see me some lambs tongue and wheat carvings. Im not very good at ID'ing saws.


----------



## Mosquito

I like the lambs tongues saws. Been trying to find a couple short D7's to clean up and sharpen. I like the shorter panel saws for the kind of work I do. The Lie Nielsen x-cut I have is a nice size, I just want one for rip, and a finer x-cut


----------



## chrisstef

If I get a deal on these Mos we'll work something out buddy, cheap like. Just talked to my aunt and she's on it like white on rice on a paper plate in a snow storm.


----------



## chrisstef

The seller wanted $100 for all 8. Scosh outta my price range site unseen but my aunt is gonna grab that thumbhole and the 2 saws immediately to the right of it for me. So a thumby, a skew back, and a ship saw for $35. I can handle that.


----------



## Tim457

Nice find Stef. Hope they go for something reasonable. I need to train me some elves.

Edit: Yeah too bad you can't see the medallions. They're probably worth that, $12 a saw isn't bad if they're good brands like they seem to be, but $12 each for a bunch of WS isn't good.


----------



## TobyC

A couple of #7s, a #16, a regular D8,... offer 50 bucks max without knowing more,... the 16 has no blade left.


----------



## chrisstef

Agreed Tim. Its hard without seeing them. The way i see it the tumbholes worth $35 so the other 2 are gravy. This will probably fill out my personal user needs for handsaws.

Thanks for the info Toby.


----------



## Brit

Should keep you busy Stef. I'd cut the #16 down to make a panel saw.


----------



## chrisstef

Id say so Andy. Lets see, ive finished up a D8 thumbhole, a D7 panel saw, a 14" Disston 4 backsaw for my rips. Im about 3/4 of the way through a Disston 12 xcut and ive got another panel saw, back saw, and mitersaw to be filed xcut in cue. Im kind of dreading the 28" 14ppi mitersaw, that's gonna be a bear.

I swapped out that 16 for the shiny D7/8? next to it with the lambs tongue. They'll be picked up this evening and shipped out some time this week. Ive got more than enough to keep me busy through the fall. Hopefully ive got enough files to last me that long!


----------



## Tugboater78

Im sure its been asked and replied before, where does one find the files and such needed for self sharpening, i found a small saw vice some time back, but may need yo make something like Brit made in his blog


----------



## chrisstef

LeeValley has Grobet files in stock most of the time. They just got back in stock not too long ago after being out of stock for a few months. Ive also got a couple of boxes of Simonds files if you get in a jam Justin. Different ppi saws require different file sizes and they also differ slightly from manufacturer to manufacturer.

Brit's blog #47 (I think) has a shopping list of what to buy in preparation for saw filing.


----------



## Tugboater78

Thanks, ill look into that Crisstef


----------



## TobyC

The shiny one is a #7, so it's pre-1928, probably '96-'17, 26" (because it doesn't have a panel saw handle, and 28" and longer had a different handle) has a nib, and is a great saw. I would have offered 50 bucks for all, but you got the cream of the crop. Tell her to keep her eye on the rest of them, they may go cheap.


----------



## chrisstef

Yea my offer woulda been $5-10 a saw but ill take what i can get for being 3 states away. Glad to hear that i scored the best of the bunch Toby. I think im starting another addiction.


----------



## bandit571

making some progress on a small panel saw









Finally may have figured out the #$#@# saw set, too. Gave the saw a test drive in some oak scrap









and found a spot halfway along the blade that stops the saw dead in it's tracks! Might be a tooth too far set?

front half saws just fine, and once you get past the bad spot, saws fine again.

Not sure why it stops, yet. As full the full sized 26" long 5ppi rip saw? Might stamp it "Murder's Row", it can make short work of even that old QSWO…


----------



## Tim457

Bandit, could be a tooth set too much, a dull bunch of teeth, or a kink in the plate. Sight down the tooth-line and and the spine see what it looks like. If it's not straight it can do that.


----------



## donwilwol

I've got what has been described as a 3-4 month old Lie-Nielsen 12 ppi panel saw coming in on trade. My hope is to have it sold before it gets here so I have no chance of wanting to keep it. I'm not sure what to ask for it, so if interested, PM me what you'd be interested at. I'll post pictures when it arrives.


----------



## dbray45

Bandit - when I have that, it is usually a long tooth or a several short ones.


----------



## bandit571

Will look it over later today, when the Dungeon cools down a bit









Right now, it's warmer down there than outside the house..


----------



## bandit571

Line along those teeth isn't a straight line, more like a valley in the middle, and in that middle was one tall tooth a-sticking up. Ah, that's the problem. Set the toothe a bit, and filed it down a little to match it's fellow teeth. Test drive went great, no halting in the middle. Saw also cuts quite fast, too..


----------



## chrisstef

Good for you bandito! Gots to keep all them soldiers in a row so they all do their job.


----------



## dbray45

Bandit - when your saw edge is concave - dips in the middle, it will cut more aggressively.


----------



## WayneC

I picked up a saw this afternoon. 5 ppi rip saw by H. M. Meier. Plate seems straight and is pretty heavy. Not sure if handle is original to saw. Was missing two nuts. Seller threw in two brass ones. Is it worth the effort to put back into use?


----------



## TobyC

Hell yeah! Fix it, it's an E.C. Simmons & Co. saw. Not made by them but sold by them. It's got a nice full blade and the handle looks good,.... nice saw.


----------



## WayneC

Thanks Toby. It looked like a quality saw.


----------



## lysdexic

Really cool etch and logo!


----------



## Brit

Agree 100% with Toby. Not much to fix up either. Go for it Wayne, it will be a great user.


----------



## DonBroussard

Went on a local rustiquing expedition today. For saw lovers, the picture captured below might as well be from a horror movie. For the weak of heart, you might want to just scroll on past this pic I captured today:










With apologies if you can't sleep tonight because of it . . .

BTW, the only saws with medallions were Warranted Superior, but there could be an etch under all that pretty scenery.


----------



## theoldfart

gonna hurl man!


----------



## Tim457

My first thought was horror too, but my second was that paint should be protecting the steel. Maybe I'm wrong, but I bet some paint stripper would reveal some sweet saws once again.


----------



## bandit571

Walked around a big Fest about tractors today, almost a mile of vendors selling old tools, and almost anything else. One stall had a box of about 20 saw sets! At least that many! Had a pair of vises too









Yep, $20 each…


----------



## WayneC

Not a bad price. I got two more saws today. Will post photos tomorrow..


----------



## chrisstef

Whatcha guys suggest as the best lumber to repair a busted applewood horn with?


----------



## TobyC

Apple, pear, almost any fruit tree wood.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Apple, of course!

It's what donor saws can be used for…


----------



## chrisstef

Donor saw! Shhesh i swear sometimes i wonder if ive got any brains at all. Ive got 2 perfect donors.


----------



## donwilwol

I picked this up over the week end.



















It's listed for sale if anyone is interested in a $19 fixer-upper. ($14 for LJ's)


----------



## bandit571

all the saws i saw down at the tractor show were either "meat saws" trying to look like hacksaws, or, two man misery whips for log work. Found those tow saw vises and saw a lot of saw sets, a few drywall saws, but no regular wood working saws, not even a miterbox to be found! Strange place…


----------



## Tim457

Stef, If you don't have what you need, let me know. I got an apple board to use for fixing broken horns from a guy that is working on getting me some apple wide enough to make saw handles, There's plenty there for fixing a lot of horns. If you pm me an address I can send you out a small flat rate box sized piece. (8 5/8" x 5 3/8")


----------



## terryR

*Tim*, if you have access to apple that is 1" thick and wide enough for making new totes, I'd love to beg for a little! I can happily trade US currency or something turned on the lathe, whatever you want! Enough apple to make 3 saw totes would make me a happy camper. 

Also, I know these aren't apple, but wooden vintage levels can be purchased for just e few dollars. The good ones are usually mahogany, cherry, or rosewood…and will supply lots of horn replacements for saw or plane totes. Beech transitional planes are full of beech horn replacements, too!


----------



## Tim457

Sorry Terry, I meant to say this one I have is only for repairs. It's cupped really bad and cracked down the center. I have a guy that is working on finding a tree wide enough to cut for me. I have another source that has apple for $6 a bf but it's 140 miles away and I'm not sure if it's thick or wide enough. Maybe I should ask him.


----------



## chrisstef

I appreciate the offer Tim but instead of stealing your stash im gonna try the donor saw route. If it falls through ill hit you up for sure. A mighty kind offer brother.


----------



## Tim457

No problem. I don't mean to make it sound so bad, it's over 5/4 and mostly good, it just won't work for a full handle due to the crack down the center. There's enough in one board to fix a whole lot more saws than I'm ever going to own.


----------



## Wally331

Split-nut production for my new tenon saws is going splendidly. First day of school tomorrow, I'm going to see if my school has a horizontal mill for the slotted back, otherwise its the drill press for me. I've got enough brass and steel for about 3 saws, can't wait to get them made


----------



## terryR

Wally, those are gorgeous! I hope you start selling saw parts…or saws…pretty soon.

The wife owes me for a few honey dew favors, been considering a custom saw…Two Lawyer's, Bontz, Wally331, Bad Axe…Any others I'm leaving out? (Wenzloff appears to be busy) Currently bidding on an unused Bridge City Japanese saw…please don't even try to snipe that guy from me! lol


----------



## waho6o9

The Bridge City's all yours TerryR, get it!

Tough to beat Two Layer's saws, they're one of my favorites.

Keep at doing the great work Wally! Stunning work my friend.

Now for some Two Layer's saws









, major drool:


----------



## DanKrager

Sheesh, waho, you'd actually take those saws into the shop? I'd wipe them down with alcohol, put on white cotton gloves, and put them in a glass display case in the living room. Those are really nice looking. Can't even see the teeth!
DanK


----------



## Brit

Terry - Don't forget Blackburntools.com. If I was in the US and wanted to buy new, that's what I would buy.


----------



## TobyC

I agree with Andy, Isaac's saws are spectacular! My first choice for a new back saw!


----------



## waho6o9

I can see putting a saw in a glass display case, but I would like to see how 
it cuts.

Blackburn saws look to be of great value. Nice website they have. Thanks Andy.
At around 215.00 USD, this looks the money.


----------



## lysdexic

Andy, just curious, why the allure of Blackburn saws over the competitors? I am not that familiar with them.


----------



## terryR

Thanks, Andy, I have his site bookmarked, but forgot about him. That dovetail saw above is lovely, and priced very fairly…

OMG, look closely at the piece of wood the saw has chosen to cut into…*don't let the plane nerds see that!* LOL

Actually, yesterday, while attaching trim around 9 exterior windows on the new chicken coop, I bungled a few 45 degree miter cuts pretty badly. (blaming it on the sweat bees). I think I can NOW justify the purchase of a nice miter box saw since I have none, and more pretty dovetail cutters would be duplicates in my collection! Sure, I have a power compound miter saw…nice Makita. But it cuts very slowly when the power goes out!

For the record…I just butt joined all the window trim…looks appropriate on a chicken coop IMO.


----------



## Mosquito

Blackburn saws do look mighty attractive


----------



## 7Footer

Came across this saw a couple weeks ago for $3 in a bin full of random saws. Its a 12" Disston Keystone "KT", 12ppi. Whats weird is that I can't find anything on disstonianinstitute.com or anywhere about the KT, I have found a couple of K1's on eBay.. The etching is legible at the right angle (Keyston is written in cursive and says Disston USA below it and the KT has a little shield looking thing around it) and for several days I thought I was reading it wrong and thought this may be a K1 rather than a KT, but I'm about 95% sure that its a KT after staring at it so many times, it cuts pretty well as it, planning on buying a few files soon so I can start sharpening the saws I have. I just can't find ANYTHING on the interweb about a KT, has anyone seen this saw before? Thanks!


----------



## TobyC

That does look like KT, but it MUST be K1, never heard of or seen a KT!!


----------



## bandit571

Maybe one of Disston's "Keystone" line of saws??


----------



## TobyC

It is, but they had a "K" and a number (1, 2, 3,.....) not KT.


----------



## 7Footer

Yeah it's a Keystone, but I can't find any info about a "KT"-they only reference K1, just strange because I'm pretty sure it says KT on it, you can see part of the Keystone etching above the KT. Not bad for a $3 saw though!


----------



## Brit

Scot said: "Andy, just curious, why the allure of Blackburn saws over the competitors?"

Good question Scot.

When I buy tools, the most important thing to me is that they perform well and are durable. The second is that they are comfortable and aesthetically pleasing and the third is that they don't break the bank.

All of the saws made by today's sawmakers will perform well, so that's an easy criterion to fulfill.

For me, it is on the second and and thrid criteria that Blackburn Tools' saws edge ahead of the competition. The designs Isaac has settled on for his totes really appeal to me and encompass many of the fine details from great saws of yesteryear. The level of craftsmanship employed in making them is extremely high. If pressed, I would have to say that Klaus of Two Lawyers is the best saw handle maker I have ever seen, but Isaac is snapping at his heels. I also like a lamb's tongue on my backsaws with closed totes which is something you don't get with LN, Badaxe, or Adria. Then there is the wonderful little detail at the toe end of the back. To me, that is 'just enough' embellishment and balances the beauty of his totes superbly.

I consider his prices extremely cheap for the level of craftsmanship. Add to all this the personal service that he offers and you can't go wrong. Isaac makes saws I believe I would love to use, not just today but every time I picked them up. They are tomorrow's classics in my opinion. Of course this is all very subjective and I am unlikely to ever get to use one of Isaac's saws, but I have restored and used enough saws now to know they are good. There are others like Ron Bonz who are also great saw makers. I love seeing the saws that Ron makes and he is also a great guy, but his saws depart too much from tradition for my personal taste.

If I had to come up with two words to describe the saws from Blackburn Tools it would be Simply Classic.


----------



## TobyC

+1000


----------



## TobyC

Look

At

These


----------



## terryR

Yes, incredible attention to detail…the sweetest lamb's tongue I've seen!










Every photo I see of Issac's work shows no defects at all. No file marks, totes finished to perfection, the split nuts look painted on they are so seamlessly fitted! Dollar for dollar, his saws LOOK more like an heirloom product than my LN's. As Andy mentioned, no lamb's tongue on an LN backsaw. A minor point, perhaps, but it shows how much the creator enjoys making totes, IMO. I believe Bad Axe uses CNC to turn out totes?

Just my 2 cents…I love the classic saw designs much better, too. Some wild, ZZ Top looking saw may be cool to look at on the web, but I couldn't hang it next to my Harvey Peace…

I also love that Isaac and I use the same tool to finish totes with a crisp shape, but not sharp…sandpaper!


----------



## bandit571

Out on a walk-about today. Stopped in at the Lutherans Center's thrift shop. Spent two dollars, plus sales tax, on two handsaws









Shorty is a 20-1/2" long panel saw, Warranted Superior on the medallion, and VERY sharp (ouch!) Not sure who made it, though.









A look at the totes. As for the larger saw: Henry Disston signed the blade, medallion says something about Philla. and it is stamped as a 6 ppi saw. Tote is a closed top, thumbhole style. Brass bolts. After a good cleaning to get the rust off









Does indeed have an etch on the blade, looks like the "8" is inside the "D" inside the keystone. Must be a D-8? the two saws cost me…..$2.15 out the door. And, I didn't even look back, just said "Thank you!" and walked away….


----------



## TobyC

You SOB!


----------



## TerryDowning

Now that's a gloat and deserves a big

YOU SUCK BANDIT!!

J/K nice haul.


----------



## terryR

Nice haul, Bandit. A D-8 with an etch for a buck? That HAS to be one of the nicest $1 saws I can remember on this thread!


----------



## WayneC

Those are nice. Just to take a shot across DVK's bow. Glad you pulled the trigger on those and are able to gloat. As Terry said. "You Suck"


----------



## DanKrager

Such a deal, Bandit. 
Here's a thought. I'll give you $2 (plus shipping) and then I can gloat and you've doubled your money in 48 hours. This late on Friday I can't do the math on % return, but it's got to be in three digits!
DanK


----------



## Tim457

Very nice Bandit. Take a look at the Disstonian institute to get an idea of the age from the medallion. The thrift stores around me try to sell tools for prices you could buy them new for.


----------



## TobyC

I'll give you four!!


----------



## bandit571

REchecked the D-8, it is a 5 pointer. That good news, or better news.

the 10 point panel saw is missing a single tooth, drat. Seems to be nickle plated bolts, too. Does have the remains of either an etch, or a silk screened logo on the blade.

Still one full sized crosscut saw over at the Lutherans Center, might still be a dollar bill?


----------



## TobyC

"REchecked the D-8, it is a 5 pointer. That good news, or better news."

Good if you need a rip saw.


----------



## bandit571

Seems to be before the big change over in 1928. According to the etch, and the medallion. Just an old handsaw…..


----------



## bandit571

Did do some wood working today









saw bench #1 is done.


----------



## bandit571

Seems to be better than the work bench I was using today









while cutting legs for the bench..


----------



## bandit571

As for the "non-D-8 saw"









cleaned up ok, found out it is a 10 pointer, and is missing one tooth









oh well, any clues as to who made this panel saw?









medallion is a ws one. Eagle with the shield, and a few stars.

As for the star itself









All I have done to this tote is take it off while I cleaned the plate, and bolts. Not even a sign of a crack, anywhere.Might just be worth the $1 +tax I paid for it?


----------



## Airframer

I recieved a care package from 69BBNova today and I am just beside myself with the scope of his generosity. So much so I can't even call this a gloat as I have no idea what I could have done to deserve such a gift but this cost me nothing and he would have nothing to do with my offers to even cover shipping! This place continues to amaze me on a daily basis.

All of these are Disston's and are in really nice shape except a couple totes that need repaired and one that needs to have the teeth re filed but that just gives me the opportunity to learn a new skill and also removes any excuse not to get serious about learning the art of saw sharpening.

So far the D8 is my favorite 









































































Again.. Thank you soo much Bill!


----------



## theoldfart

Holy sh17 Eric, you must live well! Bill seems to be some kind of guy, a genuine friend.


----------



## SamuelP

Nice saw bench bandit. I gotta get one of those done one day.

Nice score airframer.


----------



## chrisstef

Stuff like that makes my insides smile. Hell yea Nova. Theyve got a good home.


----------



## CL810

When Eric falls, he rolls uphill! ;-) Good on Nova.


----------



## donwilwol

good stuff there.


----------



## waho6o9

Good Karma all the way around.


----------



## Airframer

Absolutely! I feel the need for a "pay it forward" on my part soon. I am unusually at a loss of words here lol. Today was a good day


----------



## GMatheson

Here is my latest saw put back into service. It's a 26" Rob Sorby & Sons 5.5 tpi rip saw. I haven't been able to find much information on dating Sorby saws so I'm not sure how old this saw is.




























The next saw I have to clean up is an older 26" Sorby saw with 4.5 tpi. The plate is stamped instead of an etch an the medallion says "corporate mark kangaroo"


----------



## WayneC

Anyone need a saw or 32? lol

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Henry-Disston-Hands-Saws-/151119958170?hash=item232f73909a


----------



## CL810

I only need 30.


----------



## terryR

Greg, nice job on that Sorby saw! I've also had trouble researching the brand. All I can say is…the nib, the lamb's tongue, the split nuts…reek of the late 1800's without a doubt. That's a fine keeper saw!

Wayne, thanks for the link. No, I only need 29 saws, but what a great desktop background!


----------



## donwilwol

I'll bet I have 32 saws, and if I ever thought i could get $1200 for them, they'd be flying out of my shop at the speed of sound.


----------



## TerryDowning

$37.50 per saw

2 problems
1. I don't have $1200 laying around
2. Not sure I could use 32 more saws. (But if I had the $1200 to spare, I could get over that, So I guess only 1 problem.)


----------



## GMatheson

Thanks Terry. It is a great saw. The plate rings like a bell. Late 1800s was my guess too but I'm curious as to when they stopped stamping the plates and went to etching. The second saw may be older. My uneducated guess would be possibly mid 1800s but I'd love to know for sure.

That's some collection of saws there Wayne. They might have a better chance of getting that money selling them individually or maybe in pairs though.


----------



## bandit571

Cleaning day for a couple saws. Have Pheonix Warranted saw according to the medallion, well two actually. First one was very rusty, so a sanding to remove the red stuff, then some metal polish









Not too bad. Shined the brass up, and polish the plate. Found a barely readable etch, saying it is a Plymouth Rock brand of saw. Cleaned the tote as well.









9 point skew back saw, with an Atkins style tote.









The second saw just needed to be cleaned a bit on the plate, Didn't find any etch, yet.. It does have a nib though. Tote needed stripped and a coat of BLO applied. Brass was shined up. Stashed these two saws next to a $1 rip saw.









These three saws cost a whopping $1.57! Had one more to clean, while the 7 pointer with nib cured out. A 10 point panel saw that cost a $1 bill+ tax. Warranted Superior hardware was steel.









Just killing time while a thunderstorm rolled through…


----------



## GMatheson

Finally a way to blend my two favorite things in one. Cake and woodworking.


----------



## chrisstef

Pshhh - No medallion. Saw makers have really gone to hell over the years.


----------



## Mosquito

How do you know, 'Stef? isn't the medallion usually on the other side?


----------



## chrisstef

Damn you and your analytics Mos … youre right. I don't see a nut though. Damn me and my inferences lol.


----------



## donwilwol

Finally a way to blend my two favorite things in one. Cake and woodworking.

Now to find a way to have your cake and eat it to.


----------



## Wally331

Gorgeous saws Bandit and GMatheson, I love that R Sorby kangaroo medallion and etch.

I don't know if you remember that pair of saws I posted earlier this summer, but I finally got around to restoring the panel saw. Rust was so bad I had to go at it with a wire wheel on my angle grinder, it worked amazingly fast and cleared off the surface rust in no time, without leaving scratches in the steel. A quick scrub down with 120, 220, and 400 grit polished up the saw a thousand time better then what I had expected for something so rusty.

I also used simple green for the first time in a saw resto. This stuff is really amazing, soo much better then mineral spirits, or anything I've ever used for that matter.

Here is a pic of the saw, and a teaser of its new handle, modeled after a disston d-12. It just needs some finish sanding and I'll have to polish up the old nuts, and I might add some chip carving if I'm feeling ambitious.


----------



## waho6o9

Looking good Wally.


----------



## need2boat

Hey Guys! I know it's been a few months since I checked in. All is well on my end. I moved about a month ago and I also changed jobs and well. . . . I just fell behind on things.

Anyway I hope everyone is well and I'll spend sometime reading everyone's adventures.

cheers

Joe


----------



## RGtools

Nice to see you Joe, glad to hear things are well.


----------



## waho6o9

Thanks for stopping in Joe, keep at it bro.


----------



## WayneC

I won this lot on eBay today. I am pretty excited about the saw.


----------



## TobyC

Me too, and that brace! What's the total length and the throw (and the name) on that brace?


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Wayne, that's an awesome pickup! Funny how the ebay write-up talks about the beat up suitcase more than the brace, saw or stone…


----------



## donwilwol

Nice grab Wayne.


----------



## WayneC

Thanks. I'm still in awe that it did not sell for more. Toby, I just won it yesterday afternoon, I have not recieved it yet. The photos are from the ebay listing. The brace looks similar to one that Brit restored in his blog. I would guess it is an 8" or 10" brace.


----------



## TobyC

Your's is older, no rachet, older style chuck. This is Andy's.


----------



## WayneC

I was thinking of his Skinner brace from this post based on the head style, but his skinner does have a ratchet. Was guessing the brace along with the other tools may be English made.

http://lumberjocks.com/Brit/blog/24957


----------



## chrisstef

New cache came in. Aww yea.


----------



## WayneC

Very nice. I'm on the hunt for a good cross cut saw.


----------



## chrisstef

Im really close to finishing the sharpening on a Disston 12 Wayne. Its got some real nice steel to it. Wish this darn kitchen wasn't in my way sucking up all my fun time. Id say keep your eyes open or one of those bad boys.


----------



## Brit

*Wayne *- Nice haul you got there. The brace looks like an 8" sweep. Might be a Chapman, but my guess is that it won't have a maker's name on it. It will probably just say Made in Sheffield, England. I might be wrong though. That kind of brace were very common at one time and ranged from 6" sweep to 14" sweep, with and without ratchets. Ratchets are over-rated IMO, because 99% of the time you won't use it. Let us know what you find out about it and the saw and the mallet and the hammer and the chisels and…er…well you get the idea.


----------



## racerglen

A freebie..Found this one "floating" partialy submerged in the bed of our drag strip track truck, snagged it in exchange for a "newer" one I'd found in a rental we own.
Dried it at the track, sort of, then no before shot as I wanted it apart and truly drying asap.









It's a Disston 8, early 20th century, brass is now clean, couple cracks filled and BLO applied








(That's a D-8 thumbhole blade it's resting on, that's in the que from a while back)

The hard work will be the plate, but surprisingly even after soaking for who knows how long the etch is quite clear, perhaps there was some oil/fuel in the water ? Sure wouldn't surprise me if there were.
I will need to do some work on the medalion hole, it's stripped out.


----------



## WayneC

Thanks for enabeling Glen… lol


----------



## WayneC

Andy, are you familiar with the saw manufacture Walker & Pearson?


----------



## racerglen

Wayne, I don't think any of us need enabling lol !
p.s. that 3-D saw vice is giving some grief, it won't lock closed, just pops back when I let go of the levewr..any thoughts as you have one as well ?


----------



## Charlie5791

I guess I'm allowed to jump in the pool now. This is my first restore and also my first sharpening. 
It's a Simonds 62. The blue enamel in the medallion shows up in their 1914 catalog. The "6" in the saw number indicates it was one of Simonds' top line saws. A Blue Ribbon line. At 5-1/2 PPI I thought it would be good for my first real attempt at sharpening. And, WOW, does this thing cut! 


















I gave it a light jointing before sharpening. It had 4 or 5 teeth that were short and I didn't joint aggressively enough to get to them. I figure that on subsequent sharpenings, they'll eventually even out. Set with a new Somax saw set which I'm not particularly happy with, but I couldn't get my hands on a 42x at a reasonable price (I'm not paying $80 for one…. at least not at this point starting out) and was getting impatient.

I did manage to find a local industrial supply place that had old Lenox taper files (Made in USA) so I picked up and 8 regular, a 7 regular and a 7 slim. I sharpened the Simonds with a 7 regular and if I didn't know which faces I had used, I wouldn't be able to tell. I think I'll be going back to visit that place again. The files were 3 bucks and change each. $10 for 3 files. And they appear to be good ones.

Almost forgot the "before" picture. It's the bottom saw in this photo of 3 I picked up for $20 total. A Disston 115 Victory that, unfortunately, needed to be cut down as they had reground it so much the etch was half gone. It's now a nice panel saw. And a Disston D8. Both of which I'll be working on soon.


----------



## chrisstef

Great deal on the files. I say load up to cover all the ppi's that could get thrown at ya. That saws a beaute!


----------



## waho6o9

Nice work Charlie, congrats on a fine saw.


----------



## DaddyZ

Nice one Charlie !!


----------



## theoldfart

Charlie, I have one Simonds saw and it is a 26" back saw for my mitre box. Hands down it's one of the best saws in my till. Great find and nice restore.


----------



## Charlie5791

And…. I'm on a sharpening rampage I think…. Disston D8 and Disston 115 Victory. Second photo shows how much of the etch (and saw plate) was gone on the 115. It looked like a big keyhole saw, so I cut it off and made it a short panel saw. Hey at least it's not in a landfill someplace or rusting in a basement.


----------



## Brit

Congrats on your first saw sharpening Charlie. You did a great job of restoring that Simonds and the other saw look great too.


----------



## Brit

Wayne - No I'm not, but I'll see what I can dig up.


----------



## bandit571

Was about and about today, looking for a bottle of "Gun Blue", WallyWorld at one time sold the stuff, even bought some a year ago. Think anybody has a bottle when I need one? Nope. So, still need a way to bring out the etch on a couple saws.

Any ideas out there??


----------



## Brit

*Wayne* - Can't find out much I'm afraid. I did find this reference in the London Gazette, and whilst I can't be certain that it is the same Walker & Pearson whose names appear on your saw, it could be.

London Gazette 1866

"Joseph Walker and Henry Pearson, of No. 256, Highstreet,
Poplar, in the county of Middlesex, trading there in
copartnership under the style or firm of Walker and
Pearson, as Furniture Dealers and Chapman, having
been adjudged bankrupts under a Petition for adjudication
of Bankruptcy, filed in Her Majesty's Court of
Bankruptcy, in London, on the 8th day of June, 1866, are
hereby required to surrender themselves to James Rigg
Brougham, Esq., a Registrar of the said Court, at the
first meeting of creditors to be held before the said
Registrar, on the 4th day of July next, at twelve
o'clock at noon precisely, at the said Court."

P.S. Chapman was the name given to businessmen who bought and sold goods.


----------



## WayneC

Wow. This makes the saw pretty early. The seller has not shipped them yet. Hoping they complete the transaction. Thanks Andy.

Glen, I have not see that issue with my vices (I now have two). I will try to take a look later. Also, you might google them.


----------



## 69BBNova

I figured I'd join in on the fun…

The first pic is my Canada 5.5ppi rip…11ppi crosscut…the duller one is my 8ppi crosscut…

The final pic is my favorite saw of all, 9ppi crosscut turn of the century D-8, I cant believe I'm almost in love with it…LOL

Both the 9 and 11 ppi were sharpened by Wenzloff & Sons when I bought them, I'm definitely looking forward to using them…

My niece is going to get a couple of them at some point, but I'll be dead before before someone gets my old 9ppi D-8…

As much as I like cleaning up rough ones, buying nice ones is fun also just costs.


----------



## Brit

Wonderful saws 69BBNova. You've got all the bases covered there. Am I right to assume that since the last photo includes a Stanley 42x, that you also sharpen your own saws or are intending to learn?


----------



## 69BBNova

Hi Brit,

I do intend to sharpen my own, I have sharpened one of my saws months ago, its a Disston made (not marked) backsaw…

For my first attempts at it I was happy it came out pretty sharp, I was able to split the line on pine, oak , and hickory eventually (took a few trys). The rake is a bit off (Seems to be by eye), but for a first try I'm happy…

Even though I haven't really used hand saws for years I finally figured out that they were never aggressive enough for me, I always felt like they were just wearing away the wood, and this saw almost tears through it (soft stuff at least)...

I didn't do it properly (no surprise here), rake, fleam, slope all at same time, but I always kept reading about how to hand sharpen…

I never really searched much about it on LJs, but I came across your threads about it a lot…

Figured I'd say that because I've never posted in yours…

Thanks for the knowledge Brit, along with everyone else.


----------



## racerglen

Wayne, GOOGLE produced this answer 
"What I do is to cut a 1-1/4" square piece of saw plate from the toe end of an old panel saw or any saw that has been taper ground so the blade is thinner than others. The first attempt to do a repair I used just plain soft steel. That didn't last very long. You need the harder stuff. 1095 saw plate spring steel that everyone is using for making saws now days will work but you want the thicker stuff, like .032. Once you have a piece cut to size, rough up one side and do the same around the area where the indentation is on the front vise casting. Use JB Weld to bond the piece to the casting. Make sure you fill the indentation with the JB Weld. In most cases, this simple fix will cause the jaws to stay clamped. Sometimes though, the cam end of the lever will be worn too. In a couple situations, I've cut a step where the old cam was and silver soldered a new piece of metal in the step and then carefully ground a new cam. Usually though, just bonding the square piece of saw plate over the indentation does the trick. I have fixed about six 3D vises in recent years. To extend the wear period of the cam and the fix you make, keep that area greased. Another good idea is to prevent filings from getting down to the cam. The filings mixed with grease makes for a great grinding compound and will wear that area in short order. One method I used was to cram a small piece of foam rubber into the opening just above the lever pivot thing where it rotates in that outer front casting. I put the foam in there while I have the other castings lifted up, then drop the castings down and then bolt them together with that single bolt at the bottom. "

When I get the time in the que, this will be checked out further ;-)


----------



## WayneC

Thanks for the info Glen. I will have to inspect mine. Now to find a filing guide or two.


----------



## racerglen

+ to that Wayne !


----------



## 69BBNova

I just got these saws for nothing, C-List add said free saws for painting, less than 10min away…

Some have been used up, may get to use the steel and a few with potential have good steel…

Otherwise parts is parts…

Someone must like me today.


----------



## donwilwol

It'll be hard to beat that deal!


----------



## 69BBNova

It happened twice today, its never happened before.


----------



## SamuelP

Just checked local craigslist…nothin as usual.

Nice job.


----------



## 69BBNova

It appears I have a No. 7 from around 1878-1888, with good steel and a handle that needs work and still has the nib(I may have a handle already), I'm hoping the etch shows up on the 7…

The other one seems to be a No. 12 from 1896-1917 with a very nice handle but used up steel unfortunatly…

Today I was thrilled with the saw vice, I'm really hoping I get the No. 7 up and running, that will be a super bonus.


----------



## WayneC

That is quite a haul.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

I managed to find a decent Keen Kutter saw over the weekend, $5 at auction. Handle needs some work, but blade is actually quite sharp. I have a saw problem…


----------



## Tim457

Nice score Nova. The top and third saws look to have a lot of potential and the others aren't half bad.

I need to find some of these auctions that everyone is scoring tools at around me. Of course, my tool budget says I don't.


----------



## 69BBNova

This is the 1878-1888 No. 7 from yesterdays freebies, I figured I show how its coming along…

The blade has been through its first stage, the etch isn't all that bad, I used machinist dye for now, (dykem)...

Tonight or tommorrow I'll probably do some lapping on the blade with a stone after I remove the few bumps…

The blade is bowed a some, but its not kinked or twisted. At some point I'll remove all the teeth (they are a mess).


----------



## planepassion

69BBNova, I've never heard of using machinist's dye. Do you use that to raise the etching? To clean it? And you're right about those teeth. My gosh, talk about calves and cows. You retoothing and restoration are going to give this tool a new life. From free to a user, that's a win all around.


----------



## 69BBNova

Hey Brad,

I use it for contrast then I lightly hit it with some 800-1200 W/D paper just to see if its there, plus I usually keep it around for metalworking…

The teeth you can see better is actually the best ones it has, the ones at the toe are far worse…lol

I'll probably retooth it for a 5.5ppi rip.


----------



## 69BBNova

__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content










Bit of an update, I had to stop before I destroyed the top horn, but I'm very happy with how it came out…

The only thing is that its a bit slim, so tomorrow I'll thin out the bottom horn just a little to help balance it out…

I've only repaired a easy crack on a handle before, this is the first time I've ever repaired a horn or anything like this.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

I looks fine to me! Best news is the saw lives to see another day of USE, and you made it possible. Nice work.


----------



## Brit

Nice work.


----------



## SamuelP

Good looking repair.


----------



## planepassion

Once you sand the handle the repairs will all blend in. Looks great so far.


----------



## donwilwol

well done Bill. Another saw returned to its useful state.


----------



## chrisstef

Excellent horn repair Nova. That gives me hope that I can perform one similar. Ive been really gun shy about doing it or some reason. Was that from a donor saw handle or was it fresh lumber? And those teeth, wooo boy, they are a mess! Calves, cows, and the whole bovine family there brah.


----------



## 69BBNova

Thanks for the encouraging words everyone…

Little blade update, little bit straigher, lapped some with a stone, no more teeth, touch of wax…

I'll do more but I can't stand when I get carried away, but I have nothing else to do, so I keep myself occupied…

It was a nightmare just to get an ok pic…

chrisstef… It was a donor handle, I have a couple dozen, but getting rid of them without knowing what they are for has proved to be imposable.


----------



## WayneC

What is the best source for saw nuts? I need a couple of the nickle plated ones.


----------



## donwilwol

a couple possibilities referenced here Wayne.


----------



## Brit

"What is the best source for saw nuts?"

Well I was hit by a cricket ball once and that was pretty painful. )


----------



## chrisstef

Cricket ball to lower abdominal area =


----------



## terryR

Huh, crickets have balls?


----------



## Brit

LOL - Terry, your wit is as sharp as Stef's saws.


----------



## SamuelP

salted nuts are better.


----------



## planepassion

WayneC, for authentic and inexpensive saw nuts, pick up a dead-on-arrival, late-model saw for a buck. You'll be close to matching them to your old nuts…I mean vintage nuts. I learned the hard way. My No. 12 cost me $2.00. It was missing one nut and bolt. The nut/bolt I got from one of the purveyors mentioned on this thread cost me $15 including shipping. Hmmm. $1.00 beater for parts or a $15.00 one…your choice  As a result of that experience, I keep extra nuts around and am always on the lookout for parts saws (handles, medallions and nuts)

If I was looking for bling, and didn't mind paying for it, I'd go the badaxe route for sure.


----------



## WayneC

Thanks Brad, I was coming to that conclusion after checking prices on the parts sites and on eBay.

My little saw came in the mail today with the other stuff. The drill threw me off. The saw is smaller than I thought. From Tony's post above it appears the manufacture went bankrupt in 1866. The saw is marked with an owner's name that matches the name on the chisels and the knife.




























The brace is actually a 5" sweep. In the photo with it is my Millers Falls #34 6" sweep brace.


----------



## CL810

salted nuts are better.

Enough punch lines here to fill a thread - think I'll pass this one to Stef…..


----------



## bandit571

And I thought I had it bad AT work last night…

All I get done is play with some boxes, play with some bags, fondle something plastic, and listen to things vibrate, for 12 hours. Whew, worn out from doing all that standing up…...


----------



## chrisstef

I take the gloves off on somethin like that cl8 and this will no longer be pg-13 lol.

Love that haul Wayne. Touched a lot of bases on that one. A 5" sweep brace is tasty. Not salted nuts tasty but prettu damn good.


----------



## planepassion

Wayne that is a nice haul there brother. Loving that saw, the handle is to die for. It's a very nice historical touch that the saw's owner's marks match several of the other tools you have.


----------



## bandit571

these two went on the fee-bay today









Both are Pheonix Warranted saws. One even has a nib! The other saw has an etch, something about being a "Plymouth Rock" brand of saw. Handles sure lok and feel like Atkins made them Nib is a 7 pointer, the other is a 9.









Seemed to be decent enough saws?


----------



## WayneC

They look pretty nice. Good luck on the sale.


----------



## Wally331

Nice saws as usual bandit. I have basically read every piece of literature on saws from wk.fine tools in the last few days, I didn't know you posted over there. I could recognize your dungeon shop from anywhere 

Anyways, last few days I built a saw bench, first project using it was the mallet on top of it. Man, sawing at this level is such a great change. My saws seem twice as efficient, and my cuts are a lot cleaner.

I found out my school does have a horizontal mill, and by next week I will have my saw backs slotted. After that, I'm going to cast some medallions, using our 3-d printer to make the pattern. I'll be able to turn saw nuts on the lathe too, so there will be no joint line in the nuts.


----------



## chrisstef

so there will be no joint line in the nuts.

Aint that where the good lord split cha? Pretty sure that joint line is important.


----------



## CL810

Great work Wally, keep the pics coming as the work progresses.


----------



## Brit

Remember this lovely Tyzack No.3 that I restored and sharpened in the video?










Well now it won't be lonely since I just won this beauty which is 6ppi. Also a Tyzack, but this time a No.2 model. Here it is in the catalogue above the No.3.










(Seller's pics)










The nib is intact…










The etch is present…



















The point line needs a bit of jointing…










...and have you ever seen so much set on a saw? Holy cow! Looks like it is cutting a 1/4" kerf at the moment. )










Still, I'll soon put all that right.


----------



## terryR

Wally, nice saw bench…looks like a version of Bandit's? Gonna have to copy that guy soon for my shop!

Andy, that vintage saw already looks nicer than most of mine…I can see how being so picky on the initial purchase can lead to such stunning results post- restoration! Can't wait to see the before and after!

As a side note, Andy, are you still planning to offer your awesome Saw Sharpening video on disc? I've watched the first few minutes, and was enthralled by your eagererness to teach. Unfortunately, there's no way to download that many bytes via satellite.  Or maybe someone here could burn me a pirated copy…I'll pay both the pirate and Andy!

LOL


----------



## Brit

I am Terry and I apologize for the delay. I added the relevant chapters, generated a menu, did the artwork, etc., but I haven't managed to go and buy some DVDs yet. Due to the size, I will either have to put it on two DVDs or use double layered, double sided DVDs. I must admit that it has kind of slipped off my radar, so thank you for the reminder. I'll get on it.


----------



## WayneC

Andy, did you happen to see the brace I posted above with the saw photos?


----------



## terryR

No hurries, Andy, and Thank You!

BTW, we all know your time is limited since you are building a 16' Roubo from Euro Beech in private!


----------



## Brit

I have now Wayne.  Does it show who made it or is it still a mystery?


----------



## Mosquito

BTW, we all know your time is limited since you are building a 16' Roubo from Euro Beech in private! 

On a workmate, no less…


----------



## chrisstef

That's another beauty of a saw Andy. Glad you found its long lost brother but sheesh, the set on that puppy is mind boggling. I didn't think a saw set could produce such results. Will that much set make the teeth a little weak when it comes time to sharpen?


----------



## WayneC

Jameson and Company Andy. I just posted info about it in my blog.


----------



## Brit

Stef - It is possible, but I will have to joint the teeth quite a bit anyway so most of the existing teeth will be filed off anyhow by the time I get it straight.

Wayne - I've got your blog in my to read pile when I get home, so I'll take a look.

Got to run for a train now (well walk fast anyway).

Laters.


----------



## planepassion

Beautiful Tyzack No.2 Andy. Fantastic pickup that will give you years of pleasure in the shop. And a phenomenal sharpening job to return your No. 3. to fighting shape.


----------



## Brit

Not sure if this handle for a Disston No.7 handle is salvagable or not at the moment. There are cracks all over it and the Beech is incredibly dry.



















Thought I'd try the superglue forced in with a hairdryer trick and then clamp the life out of it. You never know.


----------



## WayneC

Andy, any thoughts about soaking it in BLO to address the dryness?


----------



## racerglen

With Wayne Andy, superglue underway, good idea, then drown it in BLO, camera's u/s right now but the 
#8 Diisston's gone as far as my shoulder, elbow and wrist will permit, and BLO with a modest glue up has saved the whatever was in the bed of the pickup, mostly water, I won't be trying to make the handle look like an Andy restore but even w/o wax I'm happy.

(fruptdit..I NEED TO BUILD A SAW TILL OR some such, no where to put this one or the D-8 thumbhole coming up next..or the bent chisels found on Friday, just squeeked a hole for the 60 ' a half block..)


----------



## 69BBNova

I'm not quite finished with my no. 7 handle…

Aside from the broken horn it had a whole bunch of hairline cracks…

The horn I used Titebond but the cracks I used superglue, but I was a slob with it, once it came out from its first soak in BLO where ever the superglue was on the surface turned very dark…

I did a second soak anyhow and I figure it had to be the BLO that did it, I wish I had used something else…

*Brit* You may want to do a test, but I'm pretty sure it was because I was a slob, because I've seen nobody else that has had a problem…

Besides your are local saw Guru…

My handle is solid by the way, I knocked it off the bench last night…It was save the handle or my No. 6 Bailey.


----------



## TobyC

Check this one out.


----------



## TobyC

This is a good save too!


----------



## Brit

My preference is not to soak things in BLO. After prepping the handle, I think you get a much better result if you wipe on a coat, let it soak in for 15mins, then wipe it off and allow to dry for 6 hours. Then repeat. I follow that with a wiped on oil-based satin varnish thinned 4 teaspoons varnish to 2 teaspoons pure turpentine. Then repeat. De-nib lightly with 0000 steel wool, then a coat of Lord Sheraton's wood balsam.

I might dye this one dark though as the BLO will highlight the cracks even though they've been glued.


----------



## Brit

Toby they are fantastic restores. Hard to believe really, but I take my hat off to people with skills like that.


----------



## Wally331

Sweet tyzack and sons saw Brit, really nice restoration on it. How do you get the plate so new looking, is it just a matter of buying a saw with minimal pitting? I've found that simple green works very well for getting the black stains out of pitting. It seems to work a ton better then mineral spirits, and it won't give you brain damage


----------



## SamuelP

Toby nice saves there. Does anyone know where to get raised nuts like the first post toby put up.


----------



## chrisstef

Just put some cold water on em Sam.


----------



## chrisstef

Curious if anyone can ID this saw set from the pic. My cousin scooped it up or me over the weekend. Claims its a Stanley. 42x??


----------



## donwilwol

It looks like a 42 or 43. Also looks like its missing a piece in the front.

Sam, I've only picked up one saw with the raised nuts (easy Stef). If you find them let us know.


----------



## chrisstef

Thanks for the ID Don. We'll see what she looks like when I get it in my clutches.


----------



## donwilwol

The 42 and 43 I've seen that I know are 42 and 43 are marked. But I'm sure Stanley made some knock offs. I'm still looking for a 42. I've found a few, but a little out of my price range.


----------



## chrisstef

Yea my uncle, cousins old man, was cleaning out the garage for a tag sale. I couldn't make it but he picked through the pile and saved me some gems. Couple of 10" or 12" sweep braces, the saw set, couple of spokeshaves, a 9 1/2, and possibly a #5. Now I just gotta get together with him and scoop it all up.

Im starting to amass quite the back log of refurbs.


----------



## waho6o9

My 42x marking's are inside the handle as in the first pic.


----------



## 69BBNova

It looks like a 42x but mine has a piece of steel that wraps around the top to set how high the teeth can go to bend them all at the same point or something…

I admit I haven't used it yet.


----------



## chrisstef

Thanks for the pics fellas. Not sure what kinda condition its in. Its probably been toted around for 50 years in conditions unsuitable for most strong men. A fire, a flood, and a mechanics garage tend to be tough on old woodworking tools.


----------



## waho6o9

Evidently mine's missing the piece that wraps around the top.

Thanks for the pics Nova.


----------



## TobyC

It's a 42.


----------



## Brit

Wally - yes it is a case of trying to buy saws with minimal pitting. That and a lot of elbow grease and as much time as the saw needs.

Nova - I hope you can remember which saw plate each of those totes came off of )

Stef - Look like you could probably fabricate the missing piece.


----------



## 69BBNova

Hey Brit- Its easy they are orphans, just like the dozen or so on the floor…lol


----------



## chrisstef

Well all right all right. Thanks or the info Toby.

A metal fabbin we will go then. I like it.


----------



## TobyC

Manual.


----------



## TobyC

I don't think the 42 has the piece you guys are talking about.


----------



## 69BBNova

I don't believe it does, in the last pic the horizontal screw does not have a stepped sleeve/collar to adjust it up or down then lock it in place.


----------



## chrisstef

Excellent sleuthing there maximus. Like the new av. Now i just gotta get my mitts on it.

Love having a manual for it too. Thanks buddy.


----------



## theoldfart

Think maybe Toby is having an identity crisis?


----------



## TobyC

δεν υπάρχει πρόβλημα ο φίλος μου


----------



## chrisstef

Pretty sure that says "ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?!"


----------



## theoldfart

exsqueeze me?


----------



## DocBailey

BBNova - that wrap-around steel piece is, I believe, an attachment for setting circular saw blades.


----------



## planepassion

TobyC, it's all Greek to me.

Chrisstef, YES! I AM entertained


----------



## TobyC




----------



## TobyC

I was actually responding to chrisstef, it says "no problem my friend" in Greek.


----------



## 69BBNova

*Doc*- I just looked at a bunch of pics and your right…

I hadn't even considered that, completely forgot about that part…

Thanks.


----------



## waho6o9

Thanks for the manual Toby!


----------



## WayneC

Ok. I purchased this saw tonight online. Saw is 10 TPI and 30" long according to the listing. Just a few questions…lol

Disston 12?

1896-1917?

Anyone see the #48 button before and know anything about it?

Lower horn is broken and would need to be replaced. Apple handle or ?


----------



## SamuelP

Wayne,

Some old builders or conractors would have their workers indentify their tools. Some would use names and some would use numbers. My grand-dad use to tell me his employees could not bring tools on-site unless they were marked with the owners name. Lots of issues with theft and damage. If you were found using a tool that was not yours and the owner of said-tool called you out, you would be in deep.

Just my 2 cents.


----------



## chrisstef

Wayne - if you pop the handle off it, underneath, on the plate, it should have an "X". Disston labeled a few of their saws with that designation. The 12 was one of them. For some reason im leaning toward that being a victory saw. Just what my gut is saying, I have no real tangible reasons why.


----------



## chrisstef

Scratch my victory saw theory. It doesn't hold up in court. Appears to be a 12 Wayniac.


----------



## theoldfart

These are some of the saws I bought a couple of days ago. This being the best:


















This one is a bit different, I'm assuming a bit older with the strangest saw nuts, 24" 


















This one looks like a mismatch, plate does not fit the handle:


----------



## 69BBNova

Pic of my No. 12 handle

WayneC- Your saw looks like a No.12 to me, I've had a couple of them.


----------



## WayneC

Thanks guys.

Kevin those saws are beautiful. Do not see a many nice saws out here in Cali.

I still have to wait for it to get here. Once it does I will get some better photos.


----------



## TobyC

WayneC

"Ok. I purchased this saw tonight online. Saw is 10 TPI and 30" long according to the listing. Just a few questions…lol

Disston 12?

1896-1917?

Anyone see the #48 button before and know anything about it?

Lower horn is broken and would need to be replaced. Apple handle or ?"

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Probably a 26" blade.

Yes, #12 unless it has a cover top.

Can't see the label screw very well, but looks like '96-'17 if it has an open top.

#48 is not original to the saw.

It is apple with an open top, or if it has a cover top, it is a D-12 made after 1928.


----------



## WayneC

Thanks Toby. I took the photo of the handle into Lightroom and cropped and enhanced the image the best I could. Not sure if this helps. I'm not sure what a cover top is.


----------



## terryR

Sam, Thanks for sharing that valuable info from your Grandad! We all know that these tools were stamped with initials over and over…but I didn't know a man could be asked to mark a tool by the boss. Makes sense. Having a saw with a brass emblem added is pretty sweet!

Great-looking 12's here lately…just sayin'


----------



## WayneC

I agree Terry. I'm just getting started heading down this road. Need to find some files and start to learn to sharpen.


----------



## TobyC

WayneC,

Yep, that's '96-'17.

If the top of the handle is slotted for the blade it's an open top, if there is no slot and the wood "covers" the top of the blade then it's a cover top. Your's should be open.


----------



## TobyC

'88-'96 has the '87 patent date and PHILAD'A with an apostrophe.










'96-'17 has no date and says PHILADA with no apostrophe.










'17-'40 has no sons and says PHILA.


----------



## WayneC

Thanks Toby.


----------



## theoldfart

The Disston I have has a etch saying D8, it is a closed top and the medallion looks like this:









So what model?


----------



## chrisstef

OF .. they introduced the "D" line after 1928


----------



## TobyC

All Disstons didn't change to "D" at the same time. The No. 80 changed to the D8 around 1880.

theoldfart, You have a Disston D8 from '96-17. The 8 should be inside the D in the etch.

After '28 they changed to D-8, with a hyphen, like this.










"In the early 1910's the letters M. DE F. and M. IND RGTRADA were added to all the etches. They are abbreviated French and Spanish phrases for Trademark."

Like this.


----------



## theoldfart

That is the etch for sure, Toby thanks.


----------



## TobyC

If your's has the spanish and french, that narrows it down to after 1910 and before 1917. If it's all english then it's between '96 and early teens.


----------



## theoldfart

I can't tell just yet, still need to do some plate cleaning


----------



## chrisstef

Cha waitin for? Bust out some sandpaper. Stef needs a fresh etch fix.


----------



## theoldfart

Ok smart a$$, what grits? 
edit, special screwdriver for da nuts? seems wide but thin, don' wanna ding the slot!


----------



## Tim457

Nice tips Toby. Going to go look at mine now too.

Kevin, bust out the grinder and file and make one fit. A saw like that deserves it's own screwdriver.


----------



## theoldfart

It is the later D8, the Spanish and French trademark language.


















Should clean up really well!


----------



## chrisstef

Nice buddy! Id start 320-400 around the etch. Gonna make a nice lookin refurb appears to be in good shape.


----------



## DanKrager

TOF, I'm jealous. Mine has no mark, and is waiting for a sharpening job.
DanK


----------



## planepassion

When you're sanding around the etch, be sure to use a sanding block. And tread lightly


----------



## theoldfart

Yea, I started w/150;( figured that out quick thoughI did use a block!


----------



## chrisstef

Youre fine with that coarse of a grit Kevin if shes good n rusty. I was just sayin that over the etch a higher grit is just a bit safer. Youre a smart guy, you wont screw it up.


----------



## Brit

You're a mind of information Toby. Nice saws TOF and Wayne.

My Tyzack No. 2 was waiting for me when I got home this weekend.

Here's an etch so Stef can get his fix.










The teeth are going to need a bit of work. Still can't believe the amount of set on it.










The handle will clean up OK I think. I prefer the look of the handle on my No.3. The No.2 doesn't have any nibs or a re-curve break. The horns have been shortened at some point, but there is still enough there for them to do their job.


----------



## theoldfart

"smart guy" "won't screw up", someday i'll send you my biography. yew don' no me vewy well!!


----------



## theoldfart

Any one have any ideas about this saw:


















Saw nuts are very unusual


----------



## TobyC

Andy,
Is the 3 older than the 2?

theoldfart,
I got nuthin' on that one, I've seen some very similar, but I don't know what they were either. Is there any etch or stamp? If it has a die stamped name on it, it will be much smaller than an etch normally is, so you will have to look harder to find it.


----------



## theoldfart

Toby I need to clean it more, I can't see anything right now. Die stamped, so there should be a raised or recessed mark?


----------



## Mosquito

vacuuming the floor in the shop, so these found a temporary home in the tool well


----------



## TobyC

theoldfart,

Recessed.


----------



## theoldfart

Toby, any guess as to where to look on the plate?


----------



## Brit

*Toby* - Not necessarily. I have the No.2 and No.3 in the same catalogue from 1920s, but what I don't know is when Tyzack started making these models or when they stopped, so the may be some years between them or there may not.

*Eric* said "Any one have any ideas about this saw"










I haven't found your exact saw Eric, but here are a few that are similar. All of the following examples had a beech handle with polished edges and brass screws.

1) Disston made a saw model (No.600) and the handle is almost the same profile as yours. Can't see the fixings that well. As you can see, the heel of the plate was curved, not straight.










2) Disston made another saw (No.091) which is also similar, but the handle isn't as good a match as the No.600.










3) Even Tyzack had a saw (No.10M) with the same kind of handle, but it isn't one of these either..










The allen screws could be original, although I personally haven't seen them on any other saws. It is thought that Allen screws were patented in the latter half of the 19th century, but I don't think they were manufactured until the early 20th century. Can't be certain of this either though.


----------



## theoldfart

Andy, thanks. Food for thought.


----------



## racerglen

Toby, thanks for answering a question before I asked it.
I'd been looking at two of my saws, including the rescue from the watery pickup bed, thinking they were #8's but by the etch lesson you gave they're actualy D-8's, the number inside the "D" unlike my 2 thumbholes that have it D-8 in the etch. Couldn't sort that out til now !


----------



## TobyC

*theoldfart

Toby, any guess as to where to look on the plate?*

Same place as an etch.


----------



## TobyC

Thanks Andy,
That No. 3 is beautiful!!


----------



## TobyC

Glen,
If the 8 is inside the D it's D8, (no hyphen) if it says D-8 in the etch it's a D-8 (with hyphen).
I prefer the D8, it feels better.


----------



## Tugboater78

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=231065629923

Would this be worth investing? I need a good ripper that required minimal work, basically I need one that will work now…


----------



## racerglen

Like my D8's too, but they are a lot smaller than my two thumbhole D-8's.


----------



## waho6o9

I don't think so Tugboater as most of the teeth are missing.

If I'm seeing that correctly. Minimal work? no

Something that needs a lot of work? Me thinks yes.


----------



## WayneC

Could the teeth issue just be the cloth the photograph was taken on?


----------



## waho6o9

I sent the seller a question on the missing teeth.

We'll see if he responds.

Could be the cloth, we shall see.


----------



## Brit

Definitely the cloth I'd say. Would I buy it? No. Although the plate has been de-rusted and cleaned, it is very heavily pitted across the entire surface and you won't be able to get that out not matter how much you try. That might affect your ability to sharpen and set the teeth properly and that's why I would pass on it. A little bit of pitting is Ok, but that's too much for me.


----------



## TobyC

*"Definitely the cloth I'd say. Would I buy it? No. Although the plate has been de-rusted and cleaned, it is very heavily pitted across the entire surface and you won't be able to get that out not matter how much you try. That might affect your ability to sharpen and set the teeth properly and that's why I would pass on it. A little bit of pitting is Ok, but that's too much for me."*

Agreed, 100%


----------



## Tugboater78

Aye I saw the pitting and the teeth looked all crazy but I was viewing on my phone so its hard to tell the.smaller details. Thanks fellas


----------



## waho6o9

Good call folks, the cloth was in the way.

Here's his reply:

"No missing teeth. The saw is sitting on a drop-cloth and is partially obscured along the toothed edge. It just could use a sharpening but otherwise is in really nice condition."


----------



## RGtools

Got an awesom Disston 8 point this weekend, but the hange is all wrong (I would guess that is why the plate is in such good shape). I guess that means I am king another…darn

Pics to come.


----------



## chrisstef

When one loses faith in humanity we should refer them to places like this.

I got a message from LukieB yesterday saying he was sending something my way that he scored during a handplane deal. Well .. It came in today.

This wicked cool cam lock style saw vice marked HSV Co (i think) with the number 80 on it. Lukie, cant thank you enough buddy. Im really excited (read chub worthy) about this vice. Im a treat her right and more importantly pass it forward.

Da pics ….


----------



## AnthonyReed

Grats Stef!

Right on Lucas!

I love this place.


----------



## theoldfart

Lucas, you are a gentleman, and Stef you are one lucky sonobabeesh. Really cool chunk of iron. Is that rust on the jaws or the remains of leather or something?


----------



## chrisstef

Appears to be rust, dust, n old filings. Its japanned and at about 80%. Im gonna go rub on it a lil more i think.


----------



## theoldfart

Be careful with that rubbing. Heard something about loosing balls in the dark whilst drilling…......


----------



## Airframer

New coping saw and 16 ppi skip tooth blades on deck! I can finally toss that POS Bucks Bros saw int eh trash where it belongs lol.


----------



## TobyC

chrisstef,

Looks like a "Wentworth".


----------



## theoldfart

OK Eric. But now Push or Pull? Mine is set up for the pull stroke, seems to work well for me.


----------



## chrisstef

Toby - an indispensible wealth of knowledge. Thanks bro. A number 3-L im guessing. Just seen it stamped underneath the jaws. Sweet.


----------



## TobyC

Patent.

Does yours say "Wentworth's Pat Apr 8, 79" and "No 3" on the jaw? (sort of under it on the front)


----------



## TobyC

We posted about the same time.


----------



## chrisstef

Dont see wentworth on it anywhere bud. Just that hard to make out raised lettering in the pic above and an 80 engraved.


----------



## Airframer

Kevin - I'm a puller… believe Stef is a pusher ;-)


----------



## WayneC

It looks like a wentworth to me as well. These are what Tools for working wood modeled their vices after….

http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/dept/CGT/item/GT-SAWV


----------



## TobyC

Some were made by Seneca Falls Manufacturing Co., and some by Edward C. Stearns & Co..

Seneca Falls marketed 3 models (pic 2), models 1 & 2 with a screw mounting feature and model 3 which used a screw clamp.

William P. Wentworth - Seneca Falls, NY was the Patentee.


----------



## AnthonyReed

Incorrect Eric, Stef is a catcher.


----------



## LukieB

Glad it showed up OK, Looks like you figured out how to put it back together….guess you get to keep your man card.

Hope you get some use out of it.


----------



## chrisstef

Ill be sure to use it brother. She needs a little bit of tweaking but I think I can get it all figured out. Thanks again amigo, I owe ya one!


----------



## theoldfart

I think i'm finally getting this saw thing:


















Plumb and square first shot.


----------



## racerglen

Nice cut Kevin ! But where's the sawdust ?
;-)


----------



## AnthonyReed

Right on Kevin.


----------



## donwilwol

So here is the actual proof I'll never make a living as a tool dealer, and even as a hobby, I'll never make any money at it. I guess I'll have to live with "its just a lot of fun".

I made a swap deal with a fellow LJ. The deal included 2 LN saws. My intent was obviously to sell them to recoup the cost and hopefully make a little profit. After all, isn't that what restoring and re-selling these old tools is all about?























































To say it was love at first site would be a huge understatement. Its the first time in my life I've ever opened a package and actually said OMFG, out loud, even thought I was alone in my shop.

So the next step was to show them to my wife and explain I was planning on selling them. I figured a little positive reinforcement was in order. That conversation went something like this.

Me: Look what I got in the mail today
The wife: just a look of, And?
Me: These are the saws I was telling you about. I got them in trade.
The Wife: What are you going to do with them.
Me: Sell them I guess.
The wife: Why do you already have those?
Me: No, nothing like this.
The wife: then why are you selling them?

oh, what to do, what to do?


----------



## chrisstef

Don you sell those and i might be forced to take a ride upstate to spit on your planes and give you a midnight punch in the d!ck. You cant off load beauty like that.


----------



## WayneC

Don I think the point is to get yourself a good set of tools. Use your knowledge of tools to fund it. So your hand plane knowledge is getting you these saws. No way I would sell them until I had something I liked better…


----------



## TerryDowning

OMFG out loud even though I'm in my office a work.

She's a keeper Don fer sure.


----------



## donwilwol

Bunch of enablers!!
.
.
.
.
.
.

.

I love you guys!


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Very nice, Don, congratulations!


----------



## Mosquito

lol Don… I'll trade you a bunch of saws for the LN tenon saw ;-)


----------



## john2005

Listen to the voice of reason Don. You know, your wife! However, if you cannot be swayed from your course of unloading them, I believe they would look very good at my shop. Just sayin.


----------



## planepassion

Don, oh yes. You have use-for-a-lifetime saws for sure. Congratulations. I know you'll enjoy using them. That tiger maple will make your heart palpitate every time you touch it. And so will thinking about your wife's support


----------



## Tim457

Pretty sure I couldn't send those away either, Don. They're sweet.

Nice cut Kevin.


----------



## terryR

+10 to keepin' those beauties! Nice score, Don…


----------



## theoldfart

OH Don, Don, Don, Don, Don, Do not sell them! That would be ….like…....oh, I don't know…...a sin. Yea that's it a OMFG sin. And you'd be goin' to that hot place if ya know what I mean. KEEP 'EM young man


----------



## theoldfart

Glen, your sawdust
















no staging!


----------



## DaddyZ

$20 on 5 minutes after the saws leave the House Don is crying !!!

I couldn't sell those either not without having better ones.


----------



## WayneC

He better not sell them… lol

Not seen much discussion on this thread about bow saws, frame saws, etc.

Here is a photo of mine…


----------



## racerglen

Don, y'all better keep both the saws n' missus !
Kevin…there's a h-l of alot of shavings with that sawdust ?

;-)
But nice !


----------



## Brit

Keep them and use them often Don and that's an order. )

If your pocket is hurting, sell some more planes. You're not going to miss a few more of them are you?


----------



## TobyC

Andy,

Today I'm giving you a cockney accent.









Did you ride in that nekkid bike riding thing?


----------



## theoldfart

Had a good rust hunt this am:









Nice tenon saw, British, tapered

















I will post more closeups later,the leftmost saw is interesting and has split nuts. The two leftmost panel saws are Distons, the middle is a D8.


----------



## chrisstef

Thats bringin it home kevin. Nice haul bruddah.

Im on a lil mission to find a tapered dovetail saw.


----------



## theoldfart

Stef, $5 for the three panel saws $4 for the tenon and $3 for the open saw. Drills were $2 each!


----------



## WayneC

That's a really nice haul. Well done.


----------



## racerglen

Mostly wrapped up 2 saws..the D-8 thumbhole from the Toronto works and the D8 found in a watery pickup bed.
!https://s3.am azonaws.com/ljimg/mukdktb.jpg!










Haven't tried dating it, but whoo hoo, my 1st shot of an etch that "worked" !









and the rescue saw..









Not going to wory about the rescue's sore nub on the handle, By the etch that refuses to show in a photo, it's 1896-1917, the medalion is 1900-1910.
Then this one, my grandfathers D7 that I rescently rediscovered.









Plate's in very good shape, but that Beech handle gives me fits..









More Disstonian institute and the clear but camera shy etch says 1865 to early 1880's, the medalion, 1896-1917 ?


----------



## theoldfart

Real nice Glenn, going to try surgery on the handle?


----------



## racerglen

I'm a scared…kinda why I still have 2, 4 and a half planes, Stanley and Union still a waiting for their totes to get a fix.. Or there just keeps getting more items in the que..
or there's not enough hours in my week, or..

Actualy that 7 is very pretty, one of the oldest I've had, I'm going through the bits n' peices in stock trying to find something that'll mate up. And being grampa Fred's..ah, you know…
;-)


----------



## Tim457

Those turned out great Glen. Don't rush Grandpa's saw, you'll find the right piece to fix that. The rest of the handle looks great though. Practice on some junkers if you need to.


----------



## theoldfart

Split nut drivers. Make or buy? Is there a standard size?


----------



## TobyC

theoldfart,

Make… no standard size… or use/modify the one from Blackburn.










LOOK.


----------



## theoldfart

Toby, it looks good. Bit of a hoot though, I paid $6 for the two saws and the spanner is $20 plus shipping!


----------



## TobyC

Make one. It's not hard.


----------



## racerglen

Ref way way back, I made one from a Don W suggestion using a found handle, wooden type, copper pipe ferrel and a Stanley utility knife blade for the business end.
Dremel cut to the blade n; snap and "Bob's yr uncle "


----------



## theoldfart

Just counted, 11 saws in que to be restored. With 5 in the till as well I have come to realize I have yet another problem! It come from running with a bad crowd, ya'll hafta stop enabling.( someday!)

*Andy*, I date the tenon saw(14") to 1852-56; you have any more info on Biggins & sons? I know DonW restored one wih half a handle but not much on the inter web.


----------



## TobyC

Biggin and Sons


----------



## TobyC

*Turn your ad blocker off and reload this page if you want to see all of this post.*

1852 - White's Gazetteer & General Directory of Sheffield










Link


----------



## GMatheson

Looks a lot like my Biggin & Sons.










Other than having the saw I know nothing more than what has been shared here.

And on the topic of split nut removers, I just took a regular screwdriver and filed out the center til it fit the nut.


----------



## theoldfart

Toby, thnaks. Googling Biggins actually brigs up DonW's restore!

Tom, saw dimensions?


----------



## theoldfart

Went back to the well so to speak:









A diston stamped Langdon Miter Box Co, good etch and sharp. A 42 w set, brass hinges, and a liftime supply of coping blades. $7 for the lot


















The restore que is now full:


----------



## DanKrager

TOF, please tell me that black shiny rectangle is a stereoscopic magnifier and microwave rust remover used for restoring old tools or viewing cut lines for handsawing, not some modern funky computer thingy. It needs to be covered in rust in any case! 

Lifetime supply of coping blades? My, my. In my saw, that would represent a short life expectancy.
DanK


----------



## DanKrager

Oh wait! I know, I know. It's a rust hunting scope! You look carefully through it to find all these bargains you come up with!
DanK


----------



## theoldfart

It's a MacMiniMusicStreamyThingy!


----------



## Tim457

Where is this well? It seems to be treating you well, Kevin. And cut him some slack guys, how's he sposed to post to LJs?


----------



## theoldfart

Tim, there is a fall festival in a local town and coincident with it is an annual tag sale. The guy has a business of cleaning up houses, buildings, barns, and garages. He works with realtors and the like. SO he accumulates stuff of all types and once a year has a tag sale. I had heard about it a couple of years ago but never got there. BIG MISTAKE!!!! I passed on a metal working lathe with all the bells and whistles parts and so on. The on and off switch was a knife switch, pretty old and they where looking for $250-$400.

Also had lots of food.


----------



## theoldfart

That Diston miter box saw I got looks to date from 1882 to 1906. It came from a New Langdon ImprovedMiter box. The etch matches a proper 1882 etch from Diston and the spine stamp has Millers Falls as the address. Got the tote off and buffed up the plate. The tote is very dry and showing checking from that drying. Not sure how to proceed.
Any ideas


----------



## donwilwol

Kevin, here is what I've done. I look at the checking and ask the gods for a sign. I never get an answer, so I proceed on my own. if the checking is bad enough, I rub titebond into the cracks and let it dry. Then soak it in blo. If the checks are not so bad, I just soak it in blo.

if after you soak it in blo you realize you should have rubbed some titebond in(always been going to try epoxy), set it off for a week or two to let the blo dry and start over.


----------



## theoldfart

Sounds like a plan, but being a coward i'm gonna post a pic to see what you think!


----------



## donwilwol

hmmm, ask LJ's instead of the gods. Why did I never think of that?


----------



## theoldfart




----------



## WayneC

Wow. Lots of checking.


----------



## theoldfart

Not what I want to hear, but yea. Thinking maybe DonW's idea of epoxy may be in order.


----------



## WayneC

I would give it a try. Also, the BLO will help.


----------



## theoldfart

Any special type of epoxy?


----------



## donwilwol

That's some major checking. If you clamp some of the worse cracks with just a small amount of pressure wollthey close? If so, I'd get some glue well into them and clamp them.

if not, any epoxy should do. Darkening it may help hide them to.


----------



## terryR

Kevin, my experience with filling gaps and cracks…Epoxy seems to leave a black line after drying worse than the T3. Of course, on a dark tote, who cares? Some of those cracks are so big, you may consider mixing black sawdust with the epoxy before applying? And +1 to a dark finish…


----------



## summerfi

Hello Gentlemen. I'm new to the forum, so by way of introduction I thought I'd post some pics of a few saws I own (Thanks for the prodding, Tim). I wouldn't call this a collection, because I'm not really a collector. I just enjoy owning and using old tools.

The first pic is of the saw till I recently made. It's nothing special, but it beats having my saws in a pile, which is where they've been for the past several years.










Next are two saws that have seen better days, but they are special to me, as are all the saws I'll be showing you today. At top is a 24" pre-WWII Disston & Sons D-15 with rosewood handle. The etching is clear, but has been partially removed by the advancing tooth line This saw was given to me by my dad, and what makes it special is that his name and the date Nov. 1939 are engraved on the plate. He was born in 1911, so he would have been 28 years old when he acquired this saw. My dad was an outstanding carpenter, and as a sideline business, he sharpened saws. I've watched him sharpen many thousands of saws over the decades. In the second half of his life he became a highly skilled musical instrument maker, and I'll show you some of the saws he used in that trade in a moment. To see my website about his musical instruments, go here: http://summerfieldmusic.99k.org/.

The bottom saw in this pic is a 22" panel saw with no etch remaining, but the Disston medallion says it is from the 1896-1917 era. The initials S.M.S. are stamped in the handle. This could have been either my dad or my granddad, as they both had the same initials. I suspect it was my granddad's saw though, because the stamp used for the initials was larger than the one my dad typically used. My granddad was also an excellent craftsman.










Top saw in the next pic is a Disston thumbhole that I presume is a D-8, but the etch is gone. The medallion is from 1896-1917. The plate measures 26 3/4" and appears to have been shortened at some point. You'll notice in the second picture down that my dad made a custom handle insert out of aluminum, with his initial inlaid in copper. This was done many many years ago, probably before I was ever born (1949).

The bottom saw is 24" long and also has no etch. The handle is walnut, made by my dad. The medallion is Warranted Superior, but who knows if it was original to the saw.



















Next are two saws given to me last year by my 85 year old father in law. He tells me they belonged to his grandfather, who owned a large farm in WI. At top is a 28" Disston #7 rip saw from the 1896-1917 era. This saw has been poorly filed over the years and the teeth need to be re-cut.

The bottom saw is a 18" Disston #12, also from 1896-1917. The etchings, medallions, nibs, and handles are all in good shape on these two saws.










The next pic is a 12" Disston #4 backsaw that I believe to be from the 1871-75 period. My son found this saw laying in the road a few years ago and brought it home to me. That was a good day, and a good son!










Next are a few small saws from my dad's musical instrument shop. The bottom one is marked Sheffield England, but I can't read the maker's name above that. This saw was used for cutting fret slots in guitar fingerboards, and the screws in the plate hold a depth stop on the back side.The top saw is just a cheap Xacto blade, but the handle was turned by my granddad.










Finally, this last saw is one I just bought on ebay for $3 plus shipping, but I don't have it in hand yet. It is a mid-1800's Spear & Jackson rip saw, and as you can see, it will need a little work, including a replacement medallion. I'll post more pics of it once it arrives and I begin the restoration.










Sorry this has gotten a little long, but I'm guessing you saw lovers won't mind.


----------



## donwilwol

That's a nice non collection and welcome.


----------



## WayneC

Lovely saws with great history. Welcome.


----------



## chrisstef

Nice cache of saws there. I love that theyve got a story behind them as well. Thanks for sharing bob.


----------



## theoldfart

Bob, doesn't everyone find saws from the 1800's on the side of the road? Nice till and history.

Cleaned a few of my recent finds


















How's this for a unique saw?









In two words or less what kind of saw is it?


----------



## racerglen

Bob, appreciate the history in your saw "files" that's realy a great family history/collection.
Kevin, that mouse has more work to do !
and…pruning-or-meat saw.. ?


----------



## theoldfart

Glen, meat saw! with split nuts I might add.


----------



## chrisstef

Ida called it kick a$$. Or (asain voice from commercial) wiicckked awesome.


----------



## theoldfart

Tanks Stef, still not getting the plate shiny and no scratch; up to and brasso. Working on filling a split nut driver.


----------



## chrisstef

Yea whatever Andys got all squirreled away that he uses to get his saws all shiny is a mystery to me. The aluminum foil move followed by some sanding and mineral spirits seems to help.


----------



## theoldfart

I'll continue to practice on the Diston, the Biggins i'm leaving alone for the moment.


----------



## Tim457

Wow Bob, that was even better than expected, nice collection. I agree with Kevin, many of my saws are found on the side of the road as well. Just kidding, that's nuts. You can start a blog about your saws or your restore if you want to go into even more detail.

I think I've heard someone say the difference between a regular meat and a surgeon's saw, but that's cool either way, Kevin.

He might just have more grease in his elbows stef, but I think he says he just picks better saws to start out with. Of course, it might be both.


----------



## Brit

Tim's right Stef, it is a bit of both. If you start with this:










After about 6 hours hand sanding the plate with P80 up to P600/P800, you get this:










Start with this:










Get this:










However, if you start with this:










It just ain't gonna happen dude!


----------



## chrisstef

Well im glad to see that im not as incompetant as i had previously believed. All my saws have been in the "aint gonna happen" category.


----------



## Tim457

Those look ridiculously awesome, but I still don't think you'll catch me sanding for 6 hours. Just sayin.


----------



## Brit

I can appreciate that Tim. The way I look at it is that if I'm lucky, I'll be using my saws for another 20 years, so 6 hours is nothing really.


----------



## theoldfart

Tim, I actually found a rip saw on the side of the road. I'ts become my go to rip!


----------



## terryR

Andy, your finished saws are over the top with beauty! And I have no doubt the teeth are as perfect as can be expected.

Ever thought of starting a small business in your SPARE time?  Surely, I'm not the ONLY galoot on this thread who would stand in line to own an 'Andyfied' vintage saw!

Oh crap, just remembered the cost of shipping from UK to USA…bollocks to that idea…LOL


----------



## Brit

I've hardly got time to do any woodworking Terry, let alone start a small business. The government would take 40% of any income from it too and there isn't the demand for it in the UK like there is in the US.

I think there would be a market for another saw maker in Europe though, selling high end saws without going over the top with costly materials. Just sensible, good-looking, traditional saws at a sensible price point.


----------



## AnthonyReed

Don't sell yourself short, you are tremendously incompetent Stef.

Andyfied saws are, no doubt, the benchmark.


----------



## chrisstef

Noun;
an incompetent person; a mentally deficient person.

Yup. You're right. Im impotent. I mean incompetent. Need any help on the next broom refinish?


----------



## AnthonyReed

I need help doing just about anything….


----------



## theoldfart

Could be incontenant Stef! You know, full of…,


----------



## AnthonyReed

In that case he would not be full but rather empty of …


----------



## AnthonyReed

Bhog did say he has a breather.


----------



## theoldfart

Snorkel?


----------



## chrisstef




----------



## terryR

Stef, if you end up incompetent, and incontinent, just come live with this old retired RN, buddy! I can help. Be sure to bring your saw sharpening goodies! 

Andy, come over here to the other side of the pond. Govt is shutdown! So, you could probably just sell your stuff cash under the table to LJ's and do well. LOL I know how you feel about spare time…even though I may be retired…


----------



## chrisstef

Now how do you guys (Tony, Kevin) feel? You sit there breakin my stones and what does Terry do? He cordially invites me down to the farm so he can make sure im pooing all right even in my mentally deficient state.

Ill bring the files and vice Terry, you warm up the mineral oil. I get all tensed when its cold.


----------



## theoldfart

I feel so terrible, your pooling and all, that I'm gonna send you some over the counter remedies recommended by our vet !


----------



## AnthonyReed

This got ugly pretty quickly….


----------



## theoldfart

Ok, I'll stop. Not having fun at work, my bad. 
Btw, how many saws do people have? I've gone from 4or5 to 15+ in a few weeks!


----------



## CL810

I don't know what Terry's plans are for you on the farm Stef, but I know what happened to the pet my parents took to the farm. Be sure to say your goodbyes before you leave.


----------



## chrisstef

A well needed distraction. I think im up around 15 myself. Until I can get the most of them rehabbed im probably gonna hold off unless a few back saws and a dovetail saw happen to find theyre way into my grips.

Sage advice Cl810. Ill be mindful if he wants to show me the gun cabinet. I love you old steffer!


----------



## AnthonyReed

I am having fun now but it is at the cost of this fine thread.

These are beautiful:









I hope Wenzloff & Sons get back on course.


----------



## Mosquito

That is a beautiful saw Tony, and I would love to get a pair of those…


----------



## donwilwol

only 15? Pheee, lightweights


----------



## theoldfart

I'd get more but I don't have the rustic porch to display them.


----------



## chrisstef

Or a shop full of elves, gnomes, and rust eating sea creatures bestowed with magical abilities to turn rust into shiny metallic objects.


----------



## donwilwol

you guys are brutal today!! Is it a full moon tonight? If not look at these shiny things!


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Let the record show there was a Caddyshack reference up there that didn't go unnoticed…


----------



## terryR

...yeah, just 15 hand saws? I thought I was hangin with a bunch of saw geeks…LOL

Stef, no worries, bud. Down South you get to see the gun cabinet just 'cause you're family! Heck, do they even let you guys own AR-15's up there?

When you have to worry is when I take you into the woods for a walk, and I'm carrying the shovel. Our oldest lab puts his tail between his legs when he sees me and the shovel. Hey, farm life can be harsh.


----------



## AnthonyReed

^Hahah.


----------



## donwilwol

AR-15's ?? Them's the devil's brew.


----------



## terryR

Note to self…don't let Don see the weapons…focus on Sargent planes….


----------



## donwilwol

Don't worry Terry. I do own more Sargents by number, but the gun cabinet is still bigger than the Sargent cabinet. And just like hand planes, I've sold a few in my past that I've kicked myself for selling.


----------



## Brit




----------



## 69BBNova

How do you like the panel saw DonW…

Yesterday I used my Wenzlof sharpened 11ppi D-8 for the first time, it was an absolute dream…

The only thing I felt about that panel saw is that it was shiny…lol


----------



## donwilwol

all I've done is look at them. I have to keep the box closed or I get distracted when i'm working (they are in my office)


----------



## 69BBNova

Really you haven't even tried it?...You sure thats a good idea?...


----------



## chrisstef

Terry - pretty sure the derailed any chance of ar-15's up here recently but thats not to say i wouldnt take a peek at tge cabinet. Being family and all. Shovels on the farm and shovels up here apparently mean different things too. Up here you cant get more tgan 12" in the ground before you need tge AR to break through the rocks. Id be worried if you broke out the backhoe.

Don - negative points for not ripping into your desk with the new LN just to try it.


----------



## donwilwol

are you kidding. I made that desk. Its native cherry!!


----------



## chrisstef

So youre saying it should cut nice and smell good?


----------



## Brit

This one's coming home to daddy…

*10" Marples Dovetail saw 16ppi. £12.62*

Seller's pics.










I just heard it say "*BUY ME!*" Seller said "it may need a set and a sharpen." I'd say it will need a bit more than that personally, but it shows promise.


----------



## donwilwol

what do you guys think?


----------



## donwilwol

that's gorgeous Andy!!


----------



## theoldfart

Don, dragged behind a mule? More work than a screw driver too!


----------



## chrisstef

It'll buff out Don. Ive got no doubt that youll turn it into a fine useable saw in short order.


----------



## TobyC

Don W,

Did you find that in a septic tank?









I think the plate is going to be pitted beyond hope, but I would still give it a shot.


----------



## Brit

With a new back, plate and handle, that saw would clean up great Don. )

IMO some tools are not worth saving. There I've said it. Ducking now.


----------



## AnthonyReed

It is probably already done and gleaming with a brilliance near that of an Andyfied tool.


----------



## donwilwol

It surprised me to. I paid close to nothing. I bought it for the nuts.



















Still needs sharpening.


----------



## AnthonyReed

Called it!

See? I have faith Yoda.


----------



## Brit




----------



## theoldfart

Mule=ass ;0{ hmmmmmm


----------



## donwilwol

yea, image if I spent 6 hours sanding instead of 1. 

I wasn't going to bother and for some reason just threw it in the citric acid. It sat there for a few days and I took it out and starting thinking, "hey maybe it is savable".

It was sitting outside an antique shop with the screw driver. The dealer just gave me a funny look when I threw them on the pile of stuff.


----------



## theoldfart

It's Dr. FrankenDon. ITS ALIVE!!!!


----------



## Brit

Whenever my dear old gran was amazed by something, she'd say…

"*Well I'll go to the foot of our stairs!*"

To this day, I don't know why and it kind of bothers me. Maybe I need therapy. LOL.


----------



## theoldfart

Hope my Biggins comes as well. Still nervous about working on it.


----------



## donwilwol

well) I'LL GO TO THE FOOT OF OUR STAIRS! - "An old north England expression of surprise or amazement - meaning presumably, that the short walk to the place mentioned would allow the speaker to recover equanimity. Or perhaps it meant it was time to give up and go to bed! Used by Tommy Handley in BBC Radio's ITMA (1940s) and elsewhere. Said to have been used by the entertainer George Formby as 'Eeh, I'll go to the foot of our stairs',


----------



## Brit

Thanks Don. That'll be where she got it from.


----------



## planepassion

Andy, kudos to your pickup of that superb Marples dovetail saw. Can't wait to see what you do with it. It's gorgeous!

Dr. Don. Congratulations on resuscitating that Disston backsaw. As I looked at the before pictures, I swear I could hear the steady tone of the EKG device signaling no heartbeat. But then ole Dr. Don is on the scene, electroshock paddles in hand, and shouting "Clear!" The after pictures clearly show the patient resting peacefully, no doubt in the company of his backsaw family. After a few days rest he'll be ready for a sharpening and back to work with the bloke.


----------



## TobyC

The "English" always did give up too easily!


----------



## CL810

Yoda explains British expressions to Brit. Is there anything he can't do???


----------



## summerfi

Andy, here you go. I'll send you my bill for therapy.

http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/38/messages/1423.html

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/the-foot-of-our-stairs.html


----------



## theoldfart

Here is an interesting saw.








I got it last weekend at a tag sale along with several others, outside of sanding the plate a bit I havn't done anything else. Went through 6/4 white oak quite well








It's a cut down D8!








Whoever did this knew how to sharpen I think.


----------



## terryR

Kevin, that's a pretty nice saw. The tote says No.7 to me, 2/3 of the plate with a great etch, sharp teeths. Very cool user to have in the till. I'll give ya $20 for it shipped…need my address?


----------



## TobyC

theoldfart,

Definitely not a D8 handle. Blade is gone, the teeth are well up into the taper.


----------



## theoldfart

OK, I bow to the more knowledgable members. Try this:









The etch









From the same bunch! 20"


----------



## TobyC

D8 or D-8, I can't see the etch, very nice panel saw.


----------



## 69BBNova

Judging by what I can see the etch on theoldfarts panel saw it is an 8 inside D…

One way you can tell is to look around the etch and there is a border running around the inside of the outer edge that is equal in distance all around, where as the '28 and older it is much closer on the sides and bottom and has far less lettering.

Another way to tell is the patent mark is a single line below the etch in English where the roughly 1910s and later where in English and Spanish (if I remember right) and had three or four lines plus the '28 and after it wasn't below the etch…

Don't remember much more than that.


----------



## summerfi

My $3 ebay saw arrived, so I thought I'd share some pics before I start a restoration.

The saw is a Spear & Jackson 28" rip saw. My initial impression is that I didn't go wrong in buying it. There are 5 broken teeth, but they are scattered rather than grouped, so it won't affect performance too much. They will eventually file out. The nib is broken off, but I'll file a new one. There is a slight bend in the saw, mostly towards the back rather than the tooth line, about 1/4 way inboard of the toe. The teeth are well-shaped and graduated, starting at 5 1/2 ppi at the toe and gradually increasing in size to 4 ppi about half way up the plate. It does need a good jointing though. One of the first things I noticed about the saw is that the plate is much stiffer than my Disstons. I'm not sure if this is due to thicker steel or different type of steel.



















I love the handle, and it's in quite good shape for being this old. The upper horn is stubbed off a little, but I'm not sure it's enough to warrant a repair. All the fasteners are missing except for one split-nut and screw, and it's not original to the saw. It sits proud of the handle on both sides and is 5/8" diameter, whereas the holes in the wood measure 9/16".



















The stamp is nice and clear.










Before taking the saw apart I decided to make a split-nut driver. The blade is made out of a piece of heavy bandsaw blade. The ferrule is a piece of copper pipe, and the handle is a scrap of walnut.










I'll post more pics as the restoration progresses.


----------



## TobyC

Nice saw… nice nut driver. Are the Disstons you're comparing it to skew back saws? They are "floppier" than straight backs.


----------



## Loco

Ya wanna keep me out of your house hang a hand saw by the door. I'm old enough to have framed houses by hand. I'm going to go wax my Milwaukee now.If power isn't available I have a Husqvarna locked and loaded.


----------



## TobyC

So…. why are you posting in this thread?


----------



## Brit

Good luck with the restoration Bob, I can't wait to see the results. I have a crosscut version (7tpi) of that saw and it is one of my favourite saws. The handle is a work of art..


----------



## funchuck

I posted this to another forum already, but I thought I'd add here too. I'm not sure if this is really a saw restoration, but recently, I got interested in this 14" Buck Bros mitre saw at Home Depot:










At $10 each, I bought several of them to learn how to file teeth into a saw and learn how to sharpen a saw. I have several nice saws that I didn't want to ruin, so I figured this was a perfect candidate for experimentation.

My first attempt was not good. I filed all the teeth off the saw plate and tried to file a 13 ppi rip file:










So, I finished filing the rest of the saw plate and it was not good, so I filed all the teeth off and started again. This time, it turned out good, so I took the Buck Bros saw handle and reworked it so the saw looked a bit better:










Ok, so now I am more confident and decide to create a dovetail saw. I download the dovetail saw template from the TFWW website and create this:










I didn't have a PPI template for 19ppi (which is what the Gramercy dovetail saw is), so I used an 18ppi template, but everything else is the same as the Gramercy dovetail saw, including the canted saw plate.

After this saw, I created a fine-cut cross cut saw using the Kenyon handle from the tgiag website:










The crosscut teeth was a new challenge for me, and I messed up the first time and had to re-file the teeth a second time to get it correct.

Here are the 3 saws:










I'm planning to make a better handle for the bigger rip saw and create a bigger crosscut saw as well.

Then, I might graduate to using brass backs and making larger tenon saws.

One thing that surprised me is how important it is to get the teeth set correctly. It makes a big difference to get the set as small as possible, and then fine tune it so it cuts straight.


----------



## funchuck

Hmm, pictures are cut off. Here is a picture of my 2 nice saws:


----------



## Brit

Nice work Funchuck. I saw them over at Woodnet, but I'm glad you posted them here too. That is a great way to learn to sharpen saws without the added pressure of messing up an old saw.


----------



## terryR

Funchuck, great work! Now, I know what to do with my rusty Buck Bros. saw! Thanks for sharing…


----------



## donwilwol

Wow. They are nice saws


----------



## Mosquito

Sweet work there funchuck! A good looking upgrade for those buck bros saws!


----------



## funchuck

Thanks everyone! I really like the saws, and they only cost $10 + some wood to make them. I think it would be a good alternative for anyone that doesn't want to spend a lot, but want a good quality saw. And now, I'm addicted to this!


----------



## summerfi

Andy - Nice video and great job restoring your S&J. I hope mine turns out nearly as well.

Toby - Good question on saw stiffness related to straight back vs. skew back. It prompted me to do a little measuring today. I measured the thickness of several saws in two spots: at the heel just above the toothline, and at the toe along the saw back. This should give the maximum and minimum thicknesses of a taper-ground plate. All the saws still have good plate width. Here are the results, listed as follows : saw name, saw length, straight or skew back (ST or SK), thickness (in 1000th's) at heel and at toe.

Simonds 26" SK 40 26
Atkins A 26" ST 38 22
Atkins B 26" ST 40 28
Disston D-8 (newer) 26" SK 38 29
Disston D-8 (older) 26" SK 38 24
Disston #7 28" ST 45 24
Spear & Jackson 28" ST 47 30

So the old Spear & Jackson is indeed thicker than the other saws, and that is undoubtedly why it feels stiffer. The feel of the S&J and Disston #7 are similar, but the #7 is a wider plate, though slightly thinner. All the other saws are noticeably less stiff compared to these two.


----------



## JustJoe

Nice saws Charles, but what's the deal with the Kobalt files in the plastic package (2nd pic from bottom)? I thought LJ had a big discussion about this a few months ago and the saw illuminati decided that the only file good enough to sharpen a saw with was a certain brand, specially made in some far-off place like Switzerland, or maybe Cleveland, by left-handed elves, and that they were no longer being produced to the high-standards necessary to work on saw steel. There was a big uproar, many scientific comparisons undertaken, and much rumination on US made files vs Mexico, vs Switzerland vs Asia. I think there was even a petition circulating that would ask the UN to force said company to resume manufacture under penalty of international sanctions or something. Was all that just a dream? Surely you didn't just re-tooth, re-file, and resharpen a saw using a $4 file and a $2 plastic file handle from the local big box store?


----------



## Brit

Nice comparison *Bob*. Not sure what it tells us really, but interesting nonetheless. )

*Joe *- LOL


----------



## john2005

Very impressive Charles! Those look nice


----------



## SamuelP

LOL Brit.


----------



## theoldfart

Jus' what are you trying to say Joe? ;0)


----------



## CL810

Don't be bashful Joe, come on out and say what you're thinking.


----------



## JustJoe

Oh was I typing with my outside voice again? That was just meant for me and the other three personalities living in my brain. Nothing to see here, just move along folks.


----------



## donwilwol

Joe's he kind of guy you meet in an elevator talking and assume he's talking on the phone. After a few minutes you realize he don't have a phone.


----------



## Tim457

Joe, you're on a roll lately. Good think you know a thing or 20 about tools or we'd just be keeping you around for comedy relief.

And nice work Charles. Are those spines stiff enough? I got a cheep saw to basically do the same thing, but learning to dovetail is a little ways down my list still.


----------



## summerfi

Tonight I started working on the Spear & Jackson saw. First step was to disassemble it.










As I said in a previous post, the saw had a kink about 1/4 way in from the toe. It actually looks like something heavy was dropped on the saw there. I used a ball peen hammer on a flat iron surface in an attempt to straighten the saw using a technique similar to this.










I must admit I was skeptical at first, but after many light taps with the hammer I could tell the plate was getting straighter. After probably several hundred strategically placed taps, the saw is now as straight as a tight string line.










Now to clean up the plate.










After a couple hours of sanding, I'm now at a point where I need to make a decision. Sand more, or finish up with a finer grit paper and call it good. I'm disappointed in how the plate is looking because it has more pitting than I thought. The pitting isn't deep, but there's lots of it. Unfortunately it is worse on the presentation side of the saw. I wanted to post this to get opinions on whether to keep sanding or let well enough alone. I don't mind putting out the elbow grease, but I don't want to thin the plate any more than necessary. What do you think?


----------



## Brit

*Bob* - Nice job on straightening the plate. Regarding how much you should sand, as far as I can tell if you want to get rid of most of the pitting on the show side, you will need to sand a lot more than you have already. If it was me, I would not try to get rid of the pits. I would finish with the finer grits up to P320, always sanding with long strokes parallel to the toothline. IMO a shiny plate with heavy pitting doesn't look as nice as a duller plate with heavy pitting, so to even out the sheen I would take some 0000 steel wool with a few drops of 3-in-1 oil and go over the entire surface on both sides (again rubbing parallel to the toothline). Then wipe down the surface and the sheen should be more acceptable. Using steel wool on its own will make the plate shiny, whereas using steel wool with oil with dull the sheen and even it out a bit.


----------



## funchuck

JustJoe: LOL. I used what I was able to get. I just got some Grobets in, but haven't tried it yet. The Kobalts seemed ok. I also tried some Mexican made Nicholsons, but they were much worse than the Kobalts, at least in my small sample set. The corners broke off the Nicholsons after only 5 or 6 passes. The Kobalts fared much better, but they only make the XSlim and Slim sizes. The Kobalts were about half the price of the Nicholsons too. I'm gonna try the Grobets on my next saw build (a xcut carcass-sized saw).

Tim: The spines are stiff enough. It isn't as weighty as the thicker brass backs, or the Veritas backs, but they work good for me.

One of these days, I'm gonna try to read through all the posts in this thread. A lot of good info here!


----------



## donwilwol

Nice restore Bob. I'd go with Andy's suggestion.


----------



## summerfi

Andy - I'm going to take your advice. I just don't see being able to sand much more of the pits out. I wish the plate looked better, but it is what it is, and though it may not look so great, it should still function just fine.

Today I filed a new nib on the saw. Here is what it looked like to start.










I added a spot of blue paint and then used another saw as a pattern to scribe a new nib.










And here is what it looked like when done. This only moved the nib back about 3/8 of an inch, and I don't think anyone will ever notice.










As you can perhaps see in the next photo, the toothline on this saw is concave by a good 1/8 inch. (Note: There must be some sort of fish-eye effect going on with this photo, because the stick the saw is resting against is actually straight). A major jointing effort is needed, and I'll need to do that before I can attempt to sharpen the saw. I've watched my late dad sharpen literally thousands of saws in his sharpening business, but I've never sharpened one myself. I'll practice on a few other saws before taking this one on. So for now I'll set the plate aside and tomorrow I'll begin work on the handle.


----------



## TobyC

Nice nib.







Are you sure that board is straight?


----------



## donwilwol

looking good so far Bob. Remember, freckles on a red head are kind of cute.


----------



## summerfi

Don - I'm guessing you aren't inferring I should paint the handle red, right? ;-)


----------



## donwilwol

no paint!


----------



## Brit

You remember I posted this Marples 10" backsaw that I recently picked up.



















Well today I was studying the saw with a view to working out what needed to be done to it and the order I was going to tackle the work. One thing puzzles me about this saw which I've not seen on any other saw before. Look at the groove highlighted by the red arrow in the following photo.










The same groove is present on the reverse side of the handle and perfectly bisects the angle between the chamfer and the hook.










Since I've not seen similar marks on other saws, my question for the esteemed panel is:

*What do you think caused these grooves and have you ever seen them before on a saw?*

The following thoughts ran through my head:


Was it part of the original design of the handle?
Was it caused by some kind of case that once housed the saw?
Was it caused by a method of holding the saw in the lid of a toolbox?
Since the handle does not bear the name of a previous owner, was it done deliberately by a previous owner as a means of identifying the saw?
Was it done deliberately by a previous owner as a form or registration mark. I noticed when holding the saw that when that mark was horizontal, the pointline was angled down at about the angle you would use for ripping a piece of wood held horizontally in the vise. Similarly for a piece of wood held vertically in a vise, when that line is also vertical the pointline was angled for sawing the cheeks of a tenon?

Of course this is all supposition on my part, but I wondered if anyone else has ever come across marks like these and could offer an explanation. So please scratch your heads and help me get to sleep tonight.

I'll also post this question on Woodnet, to see what the saw experts there have to say.


----------



## HarveyDunn

Slightly OT, but can anyone recommend instructions for saw sharpening for a newbie?


----------



## Airframer

Yes… Brits Video is about as instructional and all encompassing as you can get…

http://lumberjocks.com/Brit/blog/36332


----------



## Mosquito

http://lumberjocks.com/Brit/blog/36332


----------



## Airframer

I just took my new Olson coping saw with a 16tpi skip tooth blade for a spin on some dovetails… LOVE IT! Night and day over my HD special coping saw.


----------



## RGtools

^told ya sir!

Glad your happy.


----------



## HarveyDunn

Thank you airframer and mosquito


----------



## DocBailey

Andy,
I have to believe that those are marks deliberately (and carefully) made by the original owner as a means of identifying his saw.


----------



## Brit

Doc - I also think that is the most likely explanation. The marks are too well positioned to have been made by accident. As for them being registration marks, I can't believe anyone felt there was a need for such marks.

It doesn't look like the fibres have been compressed, so either a file was used or a sharp chisel. I would probably opt for the chisel actually, because looking at the state of the teeth, I can't believe he could have been that accurate with a saw file.


----------



## summerfi

Andy - That mark caught my eye when I saw your first picture, even before I saw the one with red arrow and explanation. I looked up "Marples backsaw" on google images and could find no other saw with that mark. So it is obviously an owner applied mark. I agree that it could be for identification, however most owners used their initials for that. It could also be just for decoration, applied when the owner was having an idle moment and happened to have file or chisel in hand.


----------



## TobyC

I answered you somewhere else but you left!

Andy,

Post this over on backsaw.net, I have seen something similar, and there was talk about it there. I think you are registered there,... I would look it up in "search" but I don't know what to search for! Or email Ray.


----------



## planepassion

Andy, because the mark is identical on both sides I would be inclined to think, at first blush, that it was by design. However, since it seems to be unique to similar samples, I would therefore attribute it as an owner's mark. Though why he would choose a slash instead of his initials is a mystery to me.

I'm not inclined to see the marks as decorative elements. If someone was decorating their saw I would expect much more elaborate carving. Something comparable to the metal engraving that Christopher Swarz did on his Stanley #5.


----------



## donwilwol

Though why he would choose a slash instead of his initials is a mystery to me.

Maybe he couldn't write. Surely possible given the time.


----------



## theoldfart

Andy, is it possible that those marks are from some sort of holder? Maybe in a tool chest or saw till. Saw clamp?


----------



## Brit

Toby found this photo of another Marples saw which is currently for sale by a different seller on ebay.co.uk. You can see the same mark on the handle. Was this owned by the same woodworker or is the mark part of the original Marples design.


----------



## Don2Laughs

Looks like a "v" gauge mark that came from the handle maker. No variation in color or texture indicates, to me, that the mark was made before the original finish was applied. The precision of the angle at the intersection leads me to believe it might be the mark of the craftsman who made the handle. Could be Marples used a certain vendor to help fill their orders or one of their own workers indicating his expertise.


----------



## NinjaAssassin

I hope it's OK to post this question in this thread. Can anyone identify what type of saws the three wire-frame-looking guys on the bottom right might be? I haven't the slightest clue what they are or for what they'd be used.

Thanks!

EDIT: Wow that's an enormous picture. Sorry about that. Here's a link instead: https://www.proxibid.com/AuctionImages/4235/72213/262.jpg


----------



## Brit

I think the image might have got flipped because they are now bottom left but they are junior hacksaws, a bit like this one.


----------



## Tim457

Yeah, I have a vintage hacksaw just like those, Ninja. Odd thing is the blade doesn't seem replaceable, the pins holding it are peened over.

Can't help with your tote Andy. Maybe one guy in the tote carving pit was an overachiever and wanted to add a little extra something to his handles.


----------



## NinjaAssassin

Thanks Brit and Tim! No, the image didn't get flipped. I just prefer to attempt communication prior to thinking.


----------



## GMatheson

I've got the same mark on my Biggin & Sons saw Andy.


----------



## Brit

So you have Greg. That's a lovely saw. That's four saws I've seen with those marks now. I can't believe I've never noticed it before.


----------



## theoldfart

Just checked my Biggins and no such mark. I feel left out ;0{


----------



## terryR

Bummer, none of my old totes are marked with the strange cut, either. Wonder if it was left by makers who were members of a club? They are clearly done With some purpose…


----------



## racerglen

Do Do Do Do…there's a cult of saw handle markers lurking in years gone by..
;-)
But, seriously, strange perhaps like meantioned earlier a "cheater's" guide to install that got carried away ?


----------



## chrisstef

Could the mystery mark reflect a particular angle marked on the handle while it was still a blank? Like some sort of knife strike line. Somethin in my brain is saying that it was a layout line of some sort while it was a raw piece of stock. Im probably talkin out of my a$$ but thats not really any different for me.


----------



## TobyC

Andy,

It'll be five when you look back at WN.


----------



## terryR

Ahhhh, a left over layout mark! That must possibly be the explanation? A bloke must have taught his students that personal tip, so only a few tote makers used it???


----------



## Brit

ERRANT LAYOUT MARK!!! - Rubish I tell you. Rubbish.


----------



## terryR

No, no, no…Andy. Not layout marks placed in error. Layout marks the maker was proud enough to leave? Please don't lock and load! LOL


----------



## donwilwol

Not the cap locks!


----------



## racerglen

Andy, how's the weather where you are ?
I'm getting reports of a major storm in Britian ..


----------



## Brit

CAPS LOCK off again Terry )

Glen - That depends what you call major really. It certainly wasn't as bad as the hurricanes you get in other countries. It was named Hurricane Jude and it passed here during the night. I got up a couple of times to check on things and I think it was at its worst around 4.30am. I think the winds were hitting around 80mph. I went outside at 4.30am in the hope that one of the protected pine trees in my garden had blown over, but no such luck.

All the trains were cancelled though due to fallen trees and they are still clearing them now I think. Most people (including me) heeded the warnings and have stayed home today. Mind you I was going to do that anyway as I had to go to the hospital for an x-ray this morning. I heard from a fellow woodworker in the Netherlands that it is battering them now.


----------



## racerglen

Good to hear you didn't get hammered Andy !
(or is that later ? ;-)


----------



## planepassion

Andy, glad to hear that you're no worse for the wear. The news reports suggested that you chaps in the south were getting the brunt of it. Here in London, we experienced some strong winds and some rain. But most of the day today was partly cloudy with periodic bits of rain. So I suspect that when you get back tomorrow, you'll enjoy some fine weather.

Thank you again for your hospitality Andy. Gail and I enjoyed sharing a pint with you at the Lamb and Flag. We even walked by there this Saturday afternoon while doing a bit of shopping in the Covent Garden area.


----------



## chrisstef

Terry, I got your back bro. If Andy wants to shout I CAN SHOUT TOO. Lol.

I was just throwing some chit at the wall to see if anything would stick with the layout mark idea. Brainstorming if you will. Gotta get it all on the table before you can start deducing. Hell Andy, don't you know anything about Sherlock Holmes. He was a Brit wasn't he?


----------



## donwilwol

Andy, sorry to hear the pines are still standing.


----------



## TobyC

So, when that storm came did you say "Hey Jude"?


----------



## Brit

*Brad* - I was wondering if you were still in the UK. I think the flights were a bit disrupted today for anyone travelling. I'm glad we were able to meet up too and I had a great time. I'm looking forward to your research on the spirit level. Hope you didn't spend too much money in Covent Garden. )

*Stef*










*Don* - Me too.


----------



## chrisstef

In that case:


----------



## Brit

*Toby* - Definitely not. Every time there is a big event in the UK (e.g. the Olympics), they wheel out Paul McCartney who thumps out 'Hey Jude' on the piano and they always prolong the song by ending with 50 repititions of the chorus. Some people just don't know when to retire. I mean, it isn't like he needs the money.


----------



## summerfi

Well guys, it's official. I'm definitely afflicted with the saw bug now. This morning I went to the local hardwood store for a piece of beech to make a couple minor repairs on the old Spear & Jackson handle. On the way home I stopped at a second hand tool shop just to see what they had. In the back was a 5 gallon bucket with about a dozen rusty old handsaws in it. On the bucket was marked $2.00. I picked out 5 saws that I thought had some potential, and then I asked the owner if that meant the saws were $2 apiece. He said no, the mark has nothing to do with the saws, and the handle screws alone made them worth $5 apiece. I said, well then, what is the price? He began looking through the saws individually, so I said what would you take for these 5 as a group? He said $20. I looked at the saws again, and I had actually selected 6 instead of 5. I said, okay, if you'll include all 6 I'll pay $20. Deal done.

These saws are mostly nothing special. My hope is that I can clean some of them up and turn them around on ebay for a profit, which I'll then put towards a really nice vintage saw like that old John Spear ripsaw that sold yesterday!

So pictured below is my haul. In the first picture, the middle saw is obviously shot, but it has a brass Disston & Sons Phila medallion and screws. Like the man said, the screws alone are worth 5 bucks. I can turn the worn out plate into scrapers. The top saw is an Atkins and the bottom is a Simonds with nice wide plate. The etch is visible on both these saws and I think they'll clean up nicely. They're also both still quite sharp!










The two saws in the next photo both have nice nibs. The top is an Atkins. The bottom has no medallion or visible etch prior to cleaning, but I suspect it is an old Disston, maybe a #7. I should be able to repair the handle.










The last saw is perhaps the most interesting of all, and it may have value to the right collector. Notice the steel screw plate on the near side of the handle. On the handle's off side are stamped the initials GNR. In this part of the country that can mean only one thing-Great Northern Railway. So this was a railroad saw, and it could be of some interest to a railroad buff.




























Well that's my haul for the day. What do you think?


----------



## Brit

Summerfi said "In this part of the country that can mean only one thing-Great Northern Railway."

Either that or the owner was a *G*uns *N* *R*oses fan.


----------



## TobyC

General Nuclear Response!

That's a turn of the century saw. Most saw factories put out second quality saws with sideplates.


----------



## bandit571

Seems I have that same style of side plate, and the tote was painted a bright RED. About the same size as a modern "Tool box saw" .......short. Except, instead of bolts, mine had rivets…


----------



## Brit

I'd say that whatever you get for those saws after you've restored them Summerfi, you will have earned every cent.


----------



## Brit

Anyone ever tried dying a saw handle? How did it turn out? Remember this No.7 that was all split and dry?




























Well I've glued it and sanded it as much as I dare, but I know that if I just go my usual route and use BLO followed by thin poly and wax then it will look crap due to the many glue lines and impressions left by the owner's name stamp. The handle is a crappy piece of beech and I'm thinking of dying it rosewood to hide the blemishes.



















Just trying to work up the courage. )


----------



## donwilwol

Andy I use a dark Danish oil in place of blo.


----------



## TobyC

Will probably look blotchy. Seal it with pre-stain before you do anything and see what it looks like.


----------



## TobyC

LOOK.


----------



## summerfi

Andy said, "I'd say that whatever you get for those saws after you've restored them Summerfi, you will have earned every cent."

I have no doubt about that Andy, but the pleasure can be in the challenge, no? Besides, if I were old, broken, and ugly, I'd want someone to fix me up. Oh wait…I AM!


----------



## Brit

Looking forward to seeing your progress Bob.


----------



## Brit

Thanks Don and Toby. I might get a bit experimental on the finish, but not tonight.


----------



## TobyC

Andy,

It's 12:35 AM there, GO TO BED!!!


----------



## SamuelP

I am interested to see how it turns out Andy. no pressure…

Does anyone have any good packing tips for Handsaws? I am moving and I still have all of my handsaws to pack up.


----------



## Brit

Yesterday I gave it a coat of BLO, let it sink in for about 5 hours and then applied a coat of Blackfriars (spirit-based) Rosewood dye over the top. I was hoping that the BLO would stop the dye penetrating too deeply into the end grain, of which there is a fair amount on a saw handle. It worked a treat. No need for expensive Pre-Treatments, good old BLO has the same effect. I have left that to dry until I get home Friday night at which point I will decide whether to give it another coat of dye or not. It is looking good so far and has covered up a lot of the blemishes and unsightly glue lines.

Sam - "Does anyone have any good packing tips for Handsaws?"

Wrap each saw in bubble wrap and put them in a crate or stiff cardboard box that is the same length as the longest saw. After all the saws are in the crate/box, fill any void with more bubble wrap or screwed-up newspaper. Write Fragile - Handle with Care on every side of the box or crate. You might want to use two crates/boxes - one for handsaws and one for backsaws.


----------



## TobyC

So,... you ask us for advice, then you blow us off like we're a bunch of buffoons!
















Show us pics bubba, no pics-didn't happen, that's the rule.


----------



## Brit

Your advice was good Toby, but you can't buy Minwax products here in the UK. Don's advice was good too, but again I don't think I can get tinted Danish oil in the UK. Therefore, I had to come up with my own brew.


----------



## Brit

Pics at the weekend.


----------



## WayneC

Sure, make us wait. LOL


----------



## Brit

Ok, I'm completely laid back about it Wayne.


----------



## terryR

Yep, it says here, "a laid back approach works best"...


----------



## CL810

*Brit*, possibly useless knowledge but Watco dark walnut Danish oil uses asphaltum to get the dark color. 2 teaspoons of non-fibrous roofing tar in 8 ounces of mineral spirits will do the trick.


----------



## Brit

You should bottle that and call it 'Saw Tote Moisturiser'. You'd make a fortune.


----------



## john2005

Hey Bob, I can't believe you found anything in Missoula, I look and look but all I find are the mid 60's #4s and 5's, usually not Stanley and bent saws but they are all going for +/- $3000.00 I think most of the crazy stuff on E-bay is from here. "Hey this looks old, it must be expensive". That kinda thing. Nice find


----------



## CL810

Interesting saw building blog.


----------



## summerfi

John - Yes, it can be hard to find stuff in this town. Everyone thinks they have a treasure. I'd love to go back east and look around where I think there are probably more old tools available. People back there probably think the same thing though.


----------



## theoldfart

Bob, you do want to go to the Northeast rust hunting! Lots to choose from.


----------



## summerfi

Kevin, that would be a fun road trip. You must have a great collection, living there in the heart of it all.


----------



## Dexter1221

Wow they are some amazing antique saws!


----------



## summerfi

I'm wondering if anyone can identify the saw etching in the photo below. It's very faint and difficult to see even in person. It is two concentric circles with some writing between them. Inside the inner circle is the head and neck of an animal that I believe is an elk, but it could possibly be a moose. The animal's antlers extend well outside the outer circle at the top. The etching bears a striking resemblance to the Elks Club logo. This is on the saw with the steel side plate that I posted a picture of a couple days ago.


----------



## summerfi

OK, I applied a bluing agent to the etch and then sanded it off. That helped slightly. The animal is definitely an elk, and with magnification we were able to determine that the word within the circles at the bottom is SUPERIOR. As far as I can tell there are no other words in the etching. Has anyone ever seen one like this?


----------



## TobyC

Elk saw.


----------



## Brit

I haven't seen anything like that Bob.


----------



## TobyC

I haven't either, is that a secondary etch?


----------



## summerfi

I'm not sure what you mean by secondary etch, Toby. It's in the normal place where you would expect to see an etch, and it measures about 2"W x 2 1/2" H. Here's another pic after adding the bluing and with the contrast turned way up. I mentioned that based on the initials GNR on the handle, I thought this was a Great Northern Railway saw. GNR has a circle logo, but with a mountain goat inside. Union Pacific Railway has an elk logo, but it's different. After searching the internet I've not found anything similar to this on another saw.


----------



## summerfi

I will add that I don't think this was an expensive or high quality saw. This is based on the poor quality of the finish (you can see in the pics how course the factory sanding was) and on the handle, which is walnut, but not fancy at all.


----------



## bandit571

Might have to change my way of sawing a bit. Tried a crosscut with one of my backsaws. First few strokes were ….OK, but about the fourth one ( or so) saw hopped out and slid across the thumb, right beside the thumbnail….

Saw was quickly "retired" and another was tried out. No new cuts, on my thumbs, anyaway…


----------



## TobyC

A secondary etch is one that is in addition to the regular etch, usually in-between the regular one and the handle.

Doesn't appear to be what you have. I'm stumped on this one.

Another X-File.


----------



## bandit571

Trying to keep a small saw from hopping out of a cut, and going across my thumb









while notching the legs to accept a shelf









Used this same saw to knock off the corners on the shelf.









Just some cheap (free!) found boards.


----------



## summerfi

Here is another saw etch to puzzle over. My guess is this is a saw produced for a hardware company by one of the prominent saw makers of the day, and a custom etch was applied. The shape of the handle and the configuration of the heel of the saw are similar to some Atkins saws I have. The medallion on this saw is Warranted Superior, and all the screws are brass. The saw has a nice nib. The etch reads as follows: Hoally Mason Mak & Co., Spring Steel, No. 7 with an H under it, Patent Ground, Patented, 3 letters that may be the artist's initials, Warranted, and at the very bottom and partially in the toothline is a word I cannot read, but it looks like Swane with probably one or two additional letters. Possibly Swanee?


----------



## TobyC

Holley-Mason Hardware Co., located on South Howard St, Spokane Washington


----------



## summerfi

Toby - Wow! Good work! Based on your clue I've done additional research. For a short period sometime between 1889 and 1905, the Holley-Mason company was known as Holley, Mason, Marks & Co. The company, located in Spokane, WA, identified themselves as "Jobbers of Hardware". Spokane is only 3 hours from where I found this saw. The similarity to what I thought was the wording on the saw-Hoally Mason Mak & Co. -was too close to be coincidental, so I took another look. Indeed, it is not only possible, but I believe quite likely that the wording does say Holley Mason Marks & Co. Further, I now believe that the word at the bottom that I thought said Swane__ actually says Spokane Wash. Mystery solved, and I'm thinking this is pretty cool!

Holley-Mason moved into their new building in Spokane in 1905. It was the first reinforced concrete building in Washington State and is now on the National Register of Historic Places. Marks had left the company by then, so I know this saw was made prior to 1905. Here is a pic of the building.


----------



## chrisstef

Love me some sluething! Excelkent work on uncovering the origin of that saw.


----------



## DonBroussard

There are some Interweb ninjas watching this saw thread. Nice work there, Sherlocks!


----------



## TobyC

The Holley-Mason Hardware Company was established in 1885, under the original firm name 
of Newport and Holley. F.H. Mason bought an interest in the firm in 1888, at which time 
the company building was located on the southwest corner of Riverside Avenue and Howard 
Street. This building was destroyed by fire in 1889. The company then relocated to 
118 Howard Street. The firm became the Holley-Mason and Marks Hardware Company when J.R. 
Marks bought an interest and consolidated it with his hardware concerns in Coeur d'Alene. 
Later, his interest was bought out and the firm took its present name, the Holley-Mason 
Hardware Company. The present building was built in 1905 at a cost of $200,000.

Link.


----------



## donwilwol

Blog worthy info on the Holly-Mason Co.


----------



## Airframer

This has been on the back burner for a while but I finally got around to re-handling a 10" Crown gents saw to go with my 8".


----------



## chrisstef

Love the open handles gents saw Eric.

For the panel. A swap meet find from this morning. Moses Eadon 14" 12ppi brass backed back saw.


----------



## GMatheson

Great looking saw


----------



## DonBroussard

@Stef-Looks like a keeper. Nice plate and back and well-shaped tote. I can see some letters in the tote but can't quite make them out. Is that a previous owner's name stamped on the tote?


----------



## chrisstef

Yea Don. Its marked in 3 spots with an owners name. Im lookin forward to bringing it back. It needs an Andification.


----------



## AnthonyReed

It is beautiful Stef.


----------



## Brit

Lovely saw Stef, but it doesn't need any andification. It needs to be Chrisstefied.

I've always liked the name Moses. Carry on.


----------



## donwilwol

Stef, you found a brass backed saw in New England?? NICE!!


----------



## chrisstef

Lol. Indeed its gonna get the works Andy. Ill do my best to pay homage. Also, if you have any info on the maker id be appreciative of anything you could provide.

Don - i know! Almost crapped when i saw it. It was on a double back to this one vendor. He had a bunch of good planes but he was just setting up at 6:30 when i saw them so i kept on rollin. For $20 i stole that saw. Glad i returned.


----------



## chrisstef

The other score of the day was a little gents saw which turns out to be a 16 ppi Disston no. 68.


----------



## TobyC

"I have to hand a Moses Eadon with "warranted" on which may be 1837 to 1855 ( and which would be about right), but then Moses Eadon and Co. (1855 to 1903) used "Moses Eadon" as a trade mark. It is not easy!!"

From here.


----------



## chrisstef

Yea i came up with that too Toby. The latest ive pegged it is 1907. Like that reads above, it gets murky, but it was prior to adding "sons" on the markings. Im still wowed that i found it in the wild.


----------



## terryR

Oh, Stef, you certainly suck for finding a complete brass backed English saw for $20! Cannot wait for the restore!


----------



## chrisstef

I suck. This is true. I think it was a fair pay off for schlepping around that place all morning long. There were throgs of people, all toting some sort of wagon or hand truck for hauling their scores. Head on a swivel and nimble on ones feet was a prerequisite. Im pretty sure me and my buddy cleaned out around 50% of all the woodworking hand tools. He scored a nice Spear & Jackson saw with split nuts on a recommendation.


----------



## terryR

I'm most jealous, buddy Stef! The only brass back saws you'll find in Alabama are hanging in my shop. 

I guess Sherman took all the hand tools with him as went through this area?

Stef, if you find another brass backer that your buddy isn't interested in…I may be. Give me a shout! I will pay for your time wandering around looking at junk, plus your expertise in spotting the gold!


----------



## chrisstef

In the 5 years ive been out hunting that was the only one ive ever seen in the wild. If I ever bump into one again Terry its most certainly coming home with me. If that days comes, well be in touch. Its been kinda fun to teach him some of the ins and outs of hunting tools in the wild. How to spot a good one without pulling out your phone and googling it. He's got the gift of the haggle so he and I work well together. I spot em, he beats em up.

There's also only 1 Moses Eadon on ebay at the moment. I think shes a little on the rare side.


----------



## terryR

Well, that took care of that rare Moses Eadon on fleaBay…wasn't a brass back, but what the heck! LOL.










I think it will clean up nicely…


----------



## chrisstef

Hell yea Terry!! We're brothers of Moses now. Uhmm biblical bros?

If I wasn't eyeball deep in countertops id be half way home on the restore. I think this one is going to be sharpened like a sash saw. Little bit of a hybrid filing. At 12 ppi its probably more of a rip tenon saw than anything else but id like it to do double duty as I all ready have a Disston 12ppi filed for rip.

Can I tell you guys how scared I am of removing the split nuts?


----------



## AnthonyReed

Nice score Terry, those are beautiful saws. Congrats.

That split nut removal may, in fact, be a harrowing experience. I hadn't thought of that. Good luck Stef.


----------



## theoldfart

Stef, havn't removed mine yet either. Something about dismantling a 165+ year old saw is slowin' me down .


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## chrisstef

I dig it brother. Ill sack up and get it done though. Realistically it wont be until around the holidays that ill have time for it. Kinda bums me out a little bit. Until then ill stroke and caress Mr. Eadon on a nightly basis.


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## theoldfart

Let's see, stroke and caress my Biggins. Nope ! Sounds too Steffy ;0{


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## Tim457

I've been considering clamping a scrap piece with a hole or several drilled in it just big enough for the saw nuts to come through next time I pull some out. What do you guys think? Doesn't seem like too much effort for a rare saw.


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## Brit

*Stef *- As you know, the screws were sanded flush with the nuts when they assembled the saw. That forms a small burr on the end of the thread which you need to overcome when removing a split nut. Add to that the fact that the passage of time cakes the assembly in all kinds of crud and the removal of a split-nut can be a harrowing experience. The way I tackle the removal of split nuts now is to press down with my screwdriver and tighten the split nut by a couple of degrees just to break the seal. Then I slowly loosen it until the nut meets the resistance of the burr, then tighten it again. I repeat this loosening and tightening and each time I loosen it, I go another degree or two. After a few repititions, you will have folded the burr over and the nut should then unscrew the rest of the way easily.

Next you have to tap out the screw with a pin punch. If you don't have a pin punch of the appropriate size, file the point off a nail and use that. The danger here is that the wood around the hole on the bolt head side of the handle will chip out. This is most likely to happen on saws where the bolt heads are slightly below the surface of the wood. Sometimes, carefully running a scalpel around the circumference of the bolt head helps, but not always. Tim's suggestion of drilling a hole just big enough for the bolt head to go through is a good idea and I've done that successfully before now. Eventually though you have to pluck up the courage to tap out the screw and when I do that I tap it as far as it will go. Usually, once you are through the plate the bolt will fall out. Don't let it drop on the floor as that can also break it. I have found that tapping the bolt out as far as it will go is preferable to tapping it a couple of times until the head is free of the wood and then trying to unscrew it. Unscrewing a soft brass bolt through a hardened steel plate will score the shank of the bolt and at best weaken it and at worst strip the thread.

If you take all these precautions and you still break a bolt, at least you did everything you could to avoid it. Most of the time, they do come off without incident. Have a piece of card ready with holes punched in it in the same configuration as the holes in the handle and put each bolt and it's corresponding nut in the appropriate hole in the card, so you ensure that each bolt and nut goes back in the same place when re-fitting the handle. When I clean the bolts up, I only remove one nut and bolt assembly from the card at a time, so I don't accidentally get them mixed up.

Good luck and enjoy the adrenalin rush.


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## terryR

Thanks for all those tips, Andy! You da man!  Is there a modern day manufacturer that can replicate custom split nuts after being ruined by inebriated galoots?

Got a non-saw question for you guys…

I want to restore a Stanley No.3 rosewood level (SW with partial sticker!), which has brass encased ends. I know how to gently clean the wood, but what will clean the brass slightly? Not all the way to brand new and shiny. Saliva and a toothbrush? Soap and water? Thanks!


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## chrisstef

Wonderful info Andy. Im feelin a little bit stronger with the added knowledge. Ill make sure everyone is along for the ride when the time comes.


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## Brit

Stef - What we need is a video conference. Then we could all be looking on and gasping as you tamper with your nuts.


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## chrisstef

Im in. Im sure we can make it happen with facetime. That would be hilarious.


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## terryR

Naw, I'm pretty sure my wife will draw the line if we get video conferencing abilities! "You guys are as sad as each other!"


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## SamuelP

I think there is a website where you can watch guys tamper with their nuts already.


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## chrisstef

Is there an app for that?


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## Tim457

Good stuff, Andy, thanks a lot.

Terry, was wondering the same thing about gently cleaning the brass. For saw nuts I was going to practice with some warranted superior ones first soap and a toothbrush, then some Brasso brass polish, then some barkeepers friend or Bon Ami, whichever I have. They're both like Comet, but much finer.

What's your plan with the wood, btw? I'm looking for something gentle for that too for a couple Stanley Rule & Level levels.


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## terryR

Tim, I've had good luck with Murphy's oil soap and steel wool for cleaning wood. To get deeper, I just use a heavier grit sandpaper. Usually around 220 grit and up.

I've got Brasso, barkeepers friend, but both are too strong for what I want. I may try some simple soap and water to leave the brass tarnished a bit?


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## chrisstef

Did a lil brass cleanin tonight. Wrights brass polish and a soft brass brush. Wet and buff.


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## Tim457

Yeah I'd try soap and water first, but I was thinking that if you used very little of either brasso or bar keeper's friend they wouldn't be too harsh. With a toothbrush you can control the amount of cleaning. The solvents in the brasso might take off the patina too fast though. I was definitely going to practice first. Good thing about brass though is it tarnishes again fast if you overdo it. Thanks for the steel wool tip, I thought you might say Murphy's.

Stef that's looking good.


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## TobyC

Along with that toothbrush you can use toothpaste, it's a mild abrasive.


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## Brit

...and a top tip to the parents of young children. If you have any white mellamine furniture in your child's room and they accidentally (it is always accidentally) draw on the furniture with felt tip pens, toothpaste will remove it. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

Now for something completely different. For those of you who are REALLY serious about learning what makes a saw tick, go to Isaac's blog. Under the category of 'Saw Design', Isaac has put up a brilliant three part series on how varying the hang angle affects a saw. Start with the oldest entry. *Highly recommended*.


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## dbray45

Brit - I have found this to be true with hand planes as well. LN and LV have distinctly different angles on their totes. This being the case, I use benches of different heights to be comfortable.


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## summerfi

What do you guys think of this little saw? It's my first attempt at saw making. Plate is from a worn out D-8. Handle is quarter sawn sycamore. Crosscut 9 ppi.


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## donwilwol

bob, that is superb. What a way to repurpose an old D8!!


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## chrisstef

I second what Don said, thats a hell of a job. I love the open handle.

LJ Wally and I worked out a little trade for this custom walnut handle for my miterbox saw. A superbly done handle that im lookin forward to putting on my saw this weekend. Thanks Wally, i love it!


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## donwilwol

that's a sweet handle (saw pros call them totes, I know from watching LJ's) I have a Wally saw coming. I'm stoked!! I'm thinking it will look as good as that handle…..err tote.


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## DocBailey

Bob - that handle is art!


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## TobyC

I like it Bob,

The hang angle is probably a little "relaxed" for most people these days, but it should work well with 9 PPI. If it chatters or shudders you may need to increase the rake angle a little.


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## summerfi

The handle is a slightly modified copy of an R. Groves tote that I saw a picture of. I did relax the hang angle a bit simply because I thought it looked better. Haven't tried to cut anything with it yet though.

Don, I know tote is popular with the in crowd, but to me it's just a handle. You do hold it in your hand after all. But I do agree that you tote a saw around by it's handle.


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## terryR

Nice job, Bob and Wally. Two nice pieces of art!
I'd be happy to tote either one!


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## Wally331

Gorgeous handle summerfi, I really like the way you filed the blade, It goes very well with that handle. Thanks stef, I still have many improvements to make though! I hope everything works out with it for you. That Moses saw you have is awesome too, I love the style of 18th century backsaw handles. Especially s. biggin and son and the early disstons.


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## summerfi

Several days ago I posted pictures of 6 rusty old saws that I bought at a second hand store. Some of you may have thought I had lost my marbles at the time. At a minimum, though, I got my 20 bucks back in educational and entertainment value as I worked on restoring these saws. Now, today is judgement day, so to speak. I'll show you before and after pictures, and you can tell me if my time was well spent.

First is a Simonds No. 8. I'd like to choke the guy who let this saw get wet and rust, because he came close to ruining a very nice saw. There is light pitting scattered around the plate, and at the top of the etch is more severe pitting. Still, the saw would make an excellent user for someone who needs a good ripsaw in their shop. The plate is 26" and the teeth are 5 1/2 ppi. The handle is in very nice condition.










Next is an Atkins. The etch is very light and I cannot see a model number, but it is labeled Perfection. This is a 26" ripsaw with 6 ppi. The handle is as nice as the day it left the factory.










Next is the Holley, Mason, Marks & Co. saw that I posted about a few days ago. Thanks to Toby, we were able to determine that this saw was sold by a large hardware company in Spokane, WA sometime prior to 1905 (Thanks Toby!). Based on shape of handle and plate, the saw may have been made by Atkins. It is a 28" ripsaw with 5 ppi. The toothline on this saw was so concave that I had to take 1/2" off at the heel to straighten it out. This resulted in my first experience at cutting new teeth. The saw now cuts like a dream.










Next is the Great Northern Railway saw with the unique bull elk etch that I previously posted about. It is unknown who made this saw. The saw is a 26" crosscut at 8 ppi.










Next is a Disston No. 7 ripsaw. The etch is light but readable. I replaced the broken upper horn and the tip of the lamb's tongue on the beech handle. The toothline on this saw was also concave, and the teeth were in horrible shape. They looked like alligator teeth. In retrospect, I should have filed them all off and started over. With a lot of work and good technique, though, they turned out very well. I have more to say about saw filing, but I'll save that for another post. Needless to say, restoring these saws has given me a great start in learning how to properly file handsaws. This saw is 26" with 6 ppi.










Finally, this was a worn out Disston old style D-8 (8 inside the D) that was beyond restoration. However, I turned the plate into the little sycamore handled saw that I posted earlier today, and I repaired the applewood handle and have already placed it on another old handle-less D-8 that I have.










So that's the end of my report, except to say that I found joy in taking these quality old tools that were destined for the junk heap and returning them back to useful tools that someone may be able to use to do beautiful work. But then you guys already know all about that.


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## CL810

Awesomeness Bob! From repurposed D-8 to restores to handles -all great.


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## waho6o9

Most excellent work folks.


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## chrisstef

Damn bob. Not only did you haul ass but ya killed it in the process. Great work man.

Im interested in the filing talk. Im only a couple saws deep myself so always interested in other peoples take on things.


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## TobyC

Bob, you are "Da man!". You have been busy my friend!


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## summerfi

Toby - Credit it to retirement. It's great to have time and a nice shop after so many years of going without.

Wally - Beautiful handle! I just read your profile, and you sound a lot like me many years ago. Keep up the good work.

Thanks for all the kind words folks.


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## donwilwol

some nice work there Bob. Keep em coming.


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## GregInMaryland

Hey there,

I have this sweet little saw that I would like to restore and get up and running. It was sold to me as a Disston and Sons saw, but I purchased it because I think it is a Preston and Sons saw. Unfortunately only the "ton and Sons" stamp is legible. It has "Sheffield" on the spine, which leads me to believe that it is a Preston and Sons saw. Paid $10 for it.










The handle is in fairly good shape, except that it rotates back and forth. It fits my hand perfectly and I didn't want to put it down, so home it came with me.

Unfortunately, after I took off the handle and cleaned up all the gunk (you can see my dental pick in the picture below), part of the blade just flaked off. I now have a gaping hole.










So, is there anything I can do to fix this? Do I even need to? Will the saw nuts alone hold the handle where it needs to be? There is a little bit of damage to the handle because of the loose fit.

Thanks.

Greg


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## Brit

You sure put in a few days work in on those saws Summerfi and as you said, that is time well spent. There is no substitute for experience. I'd say you made the most of those old saws and got your feet wet sharpening them too. I think I would have shortened the Holly, Mason, Marks & Co. saw back past the existing nib and filed in a new nib, which you could still do if you feel like it.

Looking forward to reading your experiences with sharpening.


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## summerfi

Brit - Good suggestion on the HMM saw. I may shorten it a couple inches and make it a 26 incher. That would help a little.

Greg - I'm sure others will give their suggestions on your nice saw, but here are my initial thoughts. I can think of a few options. The first is do nothing. Like they say in the medical profession, the first obligation is to do no harm. If this is a historically significant saw (I'd be surprised if it is though), then this may be the best option. Another option would be to shorten the plate and back from the heel end and drill new holes. This would make an obviously shorter but fully functionally saw. Another option that may be worth considering would be to file out the holes back to good metal and install a plug. This could be round like a washer shape, or any other shape, as long as the plug fit tightly in the filed-out hole. Then you would drill new holes in the plug(s) to fit the handle. You would want to keep the plugs small enough that they would be completely covered by the handle. I would also glue the plugs in with epoxy and sand or file flush with the saw plate when cured. One option you would not want to do is have someone weld in the holes. The heat would most likely destroy the saw's temper. Good luck, and let us know how you proceed.


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## Brit

Greg - If it definitely says Sheffield then it isn't a Disston. Also Disston rounded the toe end of the spines on their backsaws and yours doesn't have that feature.

It is unlikely to have been made by Edward Preston & Sons either as they were based in Birmingham. Edward Preston is thought to have started making tools around 1825. After that the first son came on board and later two more sons were brought into the business and the name was changed to Edward Preston & Sons in 1889. The firm went into liquidation in 1934 due to the Great Depression and poor management and the plane making side of the business was bought out by C & J Hampton who had merged with Record Ridgeway Ltd in 1932.

Although E. Preston are mostly known for their contribution to the world of hand planes, they did make some saws too, such this one.



















It is possible that your saw was made by Geo. P Preston & Sons who were based in Sheffield. Here is an example of one of their saws.










Now as to the condition of your saw. If you were intending to restore and use it, you will definitely need a new saw plate. That one is too far gone I'm afraid. Also, the chamfer on the handle above where the bolts are should be parallel to the back (spine) of the saw and not angled down as shown in your first photo. Look again at the Geo P Preston & Sons saw photo above. That is how it is meant to be oriented, so you will need to take that into account when you drill the holes in the new plate.

You mentioned that there is also damage to the handle, but you didn't say what it was. If it is repairable, then you can probably restore the saw to usable condition with a new saw plate. If the handle cannot be repaired, you are probably better off refitting the handle, and hanging it on the wall to enjoy every time you walk into your shop.

Of course none of this is conclusive and there may well be other saw makers based in Sheffield whose name ends with 'ton & Sons', although I coudn't think of any off the top of my head.

Good luck!


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## TobyC

Greg-

"Disston never carried an open-handled backsaw in its catalog, with the exception of the "Jackson" brand backsaw in the late 19th century and the "Davis" in the early 20th century."

Here.

That's a tough one, I would clean it and put it back together. Put the handle in a woodworking vise and clamp it to squeeze the handle and then tighten the nuts, don't make the split nuts do all the work. If that works then "Bob's yer uncle", if not then tell us what's happening.


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## terryR

Some excellent advice, Bob. I have an ancient Disston that looks exactly like Greg's underneath the tote. My solution?

Put it in a box for later repairs! LOL.

Anxiously awaiting the better solution…probably going to cut the plate and back a couple of inches shorter? Or maybe a custom-shaped saw like Bob did above?


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## GregInMaryland

Thanks everyone for the information. Lots to consider.

Here's what I can make out on the spine.

"EXTRA QUALITY " This is in a straight line, but crooked to the far left

"... SON & C2" This is in a semi-circle in the center and after the "C" there is a mark that looks like a 2

"..HEFFIELD" This is in a straight line below the semi-circle above (Sheffield?

"..ST STEEL" This is in a straight line to the right of the semi-circle (Cast Steel, perhaps?

Maybe I was reading into it when I thought it was a Preston & Sons. Attached is the best picture I can come up with of the spine.










any thoughts?

-Brit, you wrote "If you were intending to restore and use it, you will definitely need a new saw plate. That one is too far gone I'm afraid. " Could you elaborate? What makes it too far gone? the damage near the bolt holes or some other reason. There is some pitting higher up, but I do not think that it will impact the use for while. So if I need to replace it, is there somewhere I can purchase a saw plate? also, anyone have a tutorial on replacing a saw plate?

There is very little damage or wear on the handle, though because of the looseness in the handle there is some damage as the handle/saw rocked back and forth. I am certain I can repair it, though I am not sure how well it would look.

Thanks.

Greg


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## chrisstef

Greg - being that the area where the handle bolts to the plate is damaged and most likey very brittle, if you cut off a couple of inches so that the handle can bear in good steel you can save that plate. It'll be a short saw though but could be good for small dovetails. I think if you try and bore new holes in that area youre going to have another failure.

As for the maker, i got nada.


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## TobyC

I would rather see you replace the blade than cut it off, if you cut it you will have to cut the spine too. If you replace the blade you will be restoring it to the way it was. Contact.


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## TobyC

I put *SON into the Sheffield Indexers and got over 22 thousand hits! I have no idea who made it.

Having the word Sheffield on it does not necessarily mean it was made in Sheffield.


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## JustJoe

Just a few random saws from the smaller saw till.









HSB& Co tenon saw OVB (Our Very Best). It's taller than normal, sharp as can be with a beautiful etch. I like this saw.










Tasker & Co. This one needsd sharpened. It also needs a medallion and the nut part of one split-nut. Note the funky slant thing going on. I keep it around because it's old, and it was cheap.










A Disston #4 up top, this one too is professionally sharpened and is fun to use. So is the bottom one. That one has an etch that says Geo. Bishop #8, but the steel back says Disston & Sons. I haven't done enough digging to figure out if it's from when Disston bought out Bishop, or if it is a frankensaw. I'm thinking it's the former since it really wouldn't make sense back then to be combining two saws - what are the odds someone had a nice saw with a bad back, and a good back with a bad saw?


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## Brit

I agree with Toby 100% as usual.

Trying to identify a saw with just 'Son & Co.' and Sheffield is a big ask.

By the way, I believe it was Atkins in the US who had a secondary range of saws with Sheffield on them, because they were made at their Sheffiled Saw Works.

I said that I thought you'd be better off replacing the saw plate because I doubt that plate could be repaired in such a way as to make the saw useable and dependable. In any case, if you want to use the saw, keeping the original plate comes second to having a plate that is perfectly straight and performs well. A new plate is not expensive and it will come with the teeth already cut, so it just isn't worth your time and effort in my opinion to try and fix the existing plate.

I posted some videos courtesy of Tools For Working Wood that show how to fit a folded back to a saw plate in Part 23 of my Saw Talk blog here.


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## Brit

Nice saws Joe.


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## Tim457

Bob, those are some seriously impressive saves. Even if the saws aren't collectors items, you sure got an education while fixing them up and did a great job. I've not seen that nib on the toe, it's a nice touch.


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## theoldfart

Joe, I'll take that HS&B off your hands for you, now worries man! How much under the spine?


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## JustJoe

Sorry it's not for sale. I intend to use it in the workshop until I'm too old to see straight, then I'll bring it in to the house and pull it out during the holidays to carve the ham or turkey.


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## theoldfart

Aw nuts :0)


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## TobyC

Greg and Andy,

I don't think it's "blank" & SON, I think son is the last three letters in the name, like Smithson, or Ibbotson or something. Many English saws say Sheffield that were not made in Sheffield, it was just marketing.
PLEASE do not cut that spine, get a piece of saw plate from Dom.


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## JustJoe

How about Thomas Tillotson & Co 
Sheffield
Extra Quality Cast Steel

Like this:
http://www.wkfinetools.com/worldOfTools/c_BrickhouseF/Tillstson/Tillstson.asp


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## TobyC

Joe,

Are you sure it says Geo. Bishop and not C Bishop? I know Disston made some hand saws branded C. Bishop with the keystone, I don't know about back saws.










I would like to see the label screw, is it a warranted superior with a small ring of dots and a small eagle?


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## chrisstef

I feel like i suggested a sacrilegious act.


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## JustJoe

I can't take a decent pic of the etch because of the glare, but it's quite clear. The spine says 
CAST STEEL and then HENRY DISSTON & SONS in an arch over PHILAD'A USA and then WARRANTED.
The medallion has the disston keystone with the scales in it, surrounded by dots, and then the words outside of that (1896-1917 per the Disstonian Institute)

Then I get to the etch:
EXTRA
GEO H. BISHOP & CO - in an arch over what looks like a gremlin and the words
SPEED & EASE
TRADE MARK
CINCINNATI O., USA
HAND MADE
SPRING STEEL 8 WARRANTED
FURNISHED BY
ORR & LOCKETT HDW CO
CHICAGO


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## TobyC

Geo. Bishop


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## TobyC

That's supposed to be a winged Greyhound.


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## Mosquito

Anyone seen a saw with a medallion of "Warranted Extra" with an Eagle in the middle? I can't see an etch…It's got split nuts, though. And was only $10, very straight, and only 1 broken tooth.


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## TobyC

I've seen a few Warranted Extra label screws and Warranted Good on some back saw spines, but that won't help ID the saw unfortunately.

Probably English made for export to the US.


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## GregInMaryland

Thanks for the help.

I have separated the blade from the spine without any mishap and will get a new saw plate, perhaps from Two Guys in a Garage and some saw nuts from Blackburn Tools

I am not much of a saw guy, though I have several that I routinely use and a few more waiting for some love, but this saw fit so perfectly in my hand the moment I picked it up I knew that I needed to rescue it. I would be nice to know the history, but it isn't that important.

Thanks for the help and as the Brits would say, "keep calm and carry on!"

Greg


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## GregInMaryland

I think that we have a winner-JustJoe

Here is my saw (sans blade and saw nuts):










And here is a picture of a saw from The Saw Blog about a restoration of a Tillotson saw:










To my eye, there are at least three strong similarities:

1) the way the handle arches on the palm of the hand
2) The little circular protrusion at the base of the top horn
3) The way the handle arches up past the saw nuts and forms the semi-circle for the hand.

Of course there are differences too:

1) The horns are not as elongated
2) the treatment at the top of the saw handle where it mounts to the saw plate and then sweeps up to the horns

So, I think that Joe's guess is pretty accurate and that it is a Thomas Tillotson & Co saw.

Greg


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## summerfi

Greg - Congrats on identifying your saw, and it looks like it is well worth a proper restoration. I'm glad you'll be replacing the plate. Keep us posted as you progress.


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## summerfi

As I organized my thoughts about what I wanted to say on the topic of saw sharpening, I realized I had more to say than would be appropriate to post in this thread. So I've put it in a blog instead. If you care to read it, the link is below. Warning though, since I'm just a beginner, you experienced saw filers likely won't find much new or interesting other than perhaps some of my personal history. If you have feedback I'd like to hear it. I'm always looking to improve.

Confessions of a Novice Handsaw Filer


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## Brit

SOMEBODY STOP ME!!!

Ever since I started playing around with saws, I've dreamt of making my own saws. Well I just made an impulse buy of some saw handle blanks in African Ebony for a future saw building project. Not the easiest wood to work with, but beautiful to look at especially once the finish is applied.














































What have I done?


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## Mosquito

Finally! Been wondering how long before you'd start the process to make one ;-)


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## Brit

It ain't gonna be any time soon though unfortunately, but the wood spoke to me so I got it while I saw it (pardon the pun).


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## Airframer

At least we can all say "I knew him when he first started and I still can't afford one of his saws" lol..

Go get 'em! Can't wait to see what comes out of those blanks!


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## donwilwol

Ever since I read EricF's blog I've been having the same nightmares Andy. I keep telling myself I don't have time to start that crap to, but I typically don't listen to reason, even if it is coming from me. Even though I'd want a brass back, there is something about that carbon fiber that intrigues me. Hopefully the lack of ability to choose between the 2 will keep me off for a while.


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## chrisstef

I think its a natural progression of the disease Andy. See, after youve gone out and bought, repaired, and fine tuned everything you thought was cool youve gotta keep gettin your fix. Hence, making awesomeness instead of trying to find it.

Also - african ebony … Awwwww (drool).


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## Airframer

Don, I have less than 2 years left on my current contract. If you do start something up I'd be more than happy to be the kid in the sweat shop for you lol. Don't know anything about making saws but I am a quick study


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## DanKrager

AF, are you steppin' up to be an elf? 
DanK


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## Brit

Well our annual charity Christmas carnival is just around the corner Dan )


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## donwilwol

Eric, if I was going to hire somebody, the job would be yours, but in what will seem like a day or 2, your going to have college bills, you'll need a "REAL" job!

Christmas carnival is just around the corner …..come on Andy. Its bad enough half the radio stations around here have already started with the xmas music. I'm just not ready yet.


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## Brit

Don - You think you've got it bad. As soon as one carnival is over, my wife is planning the next one. I have to listen to Christmas this and Christmas that for the entire year. :-(


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## theoldfart

Andy, something like Noel du Jour?


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## dbray45

Andy - Let me know when you start making saws for sale - if I can afford it, I will buy one.


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## donwilwol

Andy, as long as you do a 12 month payment plan, I'm in too.


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## Wally331

I can make slotted backs for ya guys, no access to a retoother though, saw a foley on craigslist for 200, almost bought it. I still have a 10 inch back, and a 12 inch back left. But I'd be willing to mill up a few more if any of you need them.


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## Mosquito

Andy, what better a fundraiser for the Christmas Carnival than selling saws ;-)

I've got a Disston Ranger R-1 with a crappy handle, and steel medallion that I'm thinking about pulling apart, using the plate and some new hardware, make a new tote, and have me a nice small panel saw…


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## summerfi

Andy - That African ebony will make beautiful handles. Can't wait to see the finished product. Where do you plan to get the plates?

Wally - I'd like to know more about your saw backs. Please PM me with details.


----------



## Brit

*Bob* - I already have some .026" plate material that I bought cheap from a guy on ebay.co.uk. Probably enough to make four or five saws, although I only need two saws with that plate thickness. Then I'll probably either re-sell the rest or keep it for future restorations where the totes are fine, but the plate is beyond repair.

I will need to get some .020" and .018" plate from somewhere. Not sure where yet though. I'm thinking of making two 16" (rip and crosscut), two 12" (rip and crosscut) and a 10" dovetail saw. Like I said earlier though, it won't be for some time yet. I've got far more pressing projects before I get to make some saws.


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## donwilwol

Here is what I came home to. Thanks Wally!!


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## grfrazee

Wow. That saw. Just wow.


----------



## chrisstef

Bravo Wally. Bravo!


----------



## summerfi

When I started learning to file handsaws recently, I started with a small supply of about a dozen good files that I saved from my Dad's shop after he died. These are mostly USA made Nicholsons and a few foreign brands. I was concerned about what to do after these wore out, since USA file makers have moved their manufacturing to other countries where the quality has suffered greatly.

Well, today I feel like I hit the jackpot. I bought a bunch of old files on ebay, and they arrived in today's mail. I could only find two files in the entire lot that showed any past use, and those two aren't worn out by any means. All the files are 6" long, not counting the tang. After sorting them out, here is what I got, shown left to right in the picture.

11 USA Nicholson extra slim taper
15 Simonds extra slim taper
1 USA Nicholson slim taper
12 Simonds slim taper
14 Simonds regular taper
1 Simonds cant saw file

So the total is 54 files, and I paid a total of $19.22, including shipping. That's just under 36 cents per file. As the picture shows, a number of the files have rust. After inspecting them, they still feel sharp to the tough, and I don't believe the rust has harmed them too much so far. I'll put some light oil on the rusty ones and use them up first. All in all, a pretty good find.


----------



## theoldfart

"pretty good find", Bob you are the master at understatement! You better hide them, once Stef and Andy see them they won't be safe. BTW I'm packing up a few saws to send your way, could i have them back by say next Wednesday?

Great fInd sir.


----------



## racerglen

Now that's a beauty Don !
keep the autosol handy, wouldn't want it to loose that new car look ..
;-)


----------



## terryR

Congrats on the saw, Don! And superb work, Wally!!!

Nice score, Bob, Those files were lucky you found them!


----------



## houblon

Mosquito,

I have a saw with the same medallion. It is a HJ Noble Saw, secondary line or Richardsons.









Unfortunately photobucket messed up my image links, I'll post a full image later


----------



## Brit

Lovely saw you made there Wally. Congrats Don.

Bob - That is a fine collection of files you scored there. Should keep you busy for some time.


----------



## summerfi

Don, that saw's a beauty. Wally, excellent work. I'm impressed.

Kevin, feel free to send all the saws you want this way. I can't guarantee they won't get "lost in the mail" on their way home though.


----------



## Tim457

Don, that saw is sweet, nice job Wally. Didn't you just get some Lie Nielsen's too though? Certainly you can't need all those.

Bob that's a ridiculous deal. You should be able to sharpen a pretty good range of saws with those. Every time I search ebay for NOS saw files I come up with nothing worth buying. I did get some from Slav the file guy at the tool meet I made it too though so I'm not empty handed.


----------



## donwilwol

Tim, the LN is still sitting in the box in my office. I just couldn't wait to try Wally's though. I'm looking at the LN now wondering why I was so impressed with it.


----------



## terryR

Yeah, now I can understand why Don was thinking of selling the LN's. wink, wink, nudge, nudge.

Wally, how long is you waiting list, Bud?


----------



## Wally331

Thanks everyone for the kind comments, I still have a lot to improve, but I'm certainly getting there.

@ Terry, No waiting list at the moment, I could have any saw built for you, in time for christmas too!


----------



## donwilwol

by xmas Terry. I doubt you'll talk me out of the LN by then


----------



## houblon

Moskito: This saw is stamped "HJ Noble cast steel warranted". No etch. 26 in, very heavy and tapered.
The roundovers at the toe and heel do not look original.










More info=


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## Mosquito

*houblon* Thanks! I hadn't been able to find any information on it yet.


----------



## dbray45

Bob - don't throw those away when they get dull. Grind them into other cutting tools, they are hardened steel - after you temper them, they will work well.


----------



## summerfi

David - Copy that. I have a number of chisels and gouges that my Dad made out of old files. They work as well as store bought.


----------



## jordanp

Nice handle Eric..

How thick was the blank when you started?

And where did you pickup that nice little pattern?


----------



## Airframer

Bit of a crossover double post but… just took delivery of a 28" Disston miter box saw today.

It needs a restore and sharpening but already love the girth of this thing lol…
































































This plate is salvageable right?


----------



## TobyC

Beautiful, clean 'er up!


----------



## planepassion

I like my #1024 Ingersoll-Rand (Millers Falls) miterbox from the 1980s. It's mounted to a nearby benchtop and I make most of my "rough" miter cuts with it. However,...there was one thing I didn't like…










And this, I especially didn't like…









Just not comfortable in the hand. So after preparing myself for a long search, I found this one on Ebay within a week. 24" long x 4", 11 ppi. Filed it with 25 degrees of rake and 20 degrees of fleam. I wanted to have a more aggressive (i.e. faster) cut than the 30 degrees of rake I have on my "precision" Goodell Manufacturing Company miterbox backsaw.




























Feels MUCH better in the hand. Isn't it ironic that I "upgraded" my 1980s miterbox with a 1930s saw? Better quality, better ergonomics and it adds a little vintage pizzaz to the setup. Even has a bit of the Millers Falls sticker left on the handle.


----------



## TobyC

Brad,

Now you can make a new handle for the old one…. or new one… or… you know what I mean!


----------



## planepassion

Toby, I like the idea of making a new handle to gain the experience. Will have to poke around to identify projects by others that can give me guidance.


----------



## terryR

Brad, here's a blog I posted with way too many photos about shaping a tote…

http://lumberjocks.com/terryR/blog/28999

world's longest known lamb's tongue?


----------



## Airframer

So, I am sure this has been covered in this thread somewhere but… what grit do you guys sand saw plates with? Is 220 a safe starting point or should I think finer than that?


----------



## donwilwol

Eric, yea its been covered. Go back to the beginning and read.

ha, really it depends. I've had a few I started with 80. 220 is fine if it doesn't have much or any pitting.


----------



## Airframer

Thanks Don.. I got no time for reading all that again lol!

Jordan.. I completely missed your questions earlier.. sorry 'bout that.

The Cherry I used was 7/8" thick which is typically the minimum thickness for a saw handle I have discovered. I got the pattern from toolsforworkingwood.com http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/prodimg/gt/pdf/GT-DKITXX_INST.pdf


----------



## Brit

Eric - I agree with Don. Most of my sanding is done with P80. I work up through the grits stopping at P400 or P600 for a backsaw (sometimes I stop at P320 if there is a lot of pitting) and P320 for a hand saw.


----------



## 69BBNova

This is the only saw I have sharpened so far, its a 14" backsaw that is now 12" because I made a giant mess of the first two inches. I did it about a year ago…

I think its a Disston made because the medallion has the Disston ring and the two stars…

I sharpened it with very little knowledge and although I've read a lot more I'm still scared to sharpen any of my nice D-8s…

I had filed rake, fleam and slope at the same time and I'm still not sure thats correct.

All I know is it likes the taste of wood a lot…lol

I wish I actually knew how to use macro on my camera


----------



## Brit

*Nova* - IMO you should forget about adding slope until you can accurately and repeatably file rake and fleam. On teeth that small, the difference that slope makes is so negligible that it isn't worth worrying about. The best saw to start filing on is a rip saw of about 6 ppi. I say this because you just have to concentrate on filing the rake angle. Once you have that down, you can try a crosscut saw of about 10 ppi. That will teach you to add fleam whilst maintaining your rake angle. Once you are confident that you can file rake and fleam accurately, you can add some slope if you think it is necessary.

I don't know whether you've seen it already, but a few months ago I posted a saw sharpening video on my blog which you might find useful. Here's the link: http://lumberjocks.com/Brit/blog/36332

Although you might not feel particularly confident yet, I don't mind admitting that your teeth are a lot better than my first attempt.


----------



## AnthonyReed

Andy - Thank you again for the huge amount of time and effort you have (and continue to) put forth in helping us better understand saws and the refurbishing, care and sharpening of them; in particular the video.

A monumental amount of knowledge you have imparted on us over the years, I am glad there was a way to pay you back a little in the way of donating to your charity: Highcliffe Christmas Carnival.

I truly appreciate you. Thank you Andy.


----------



## Brit

Cheers Tony. I bull******************** for a living, so I didn't have to try too hard. )


----------



## theoldfart

Andy, are you a politician?


----------



## Brit

No Kevin. I'm a business consultant.


----------



## theoldfart

Sorry, the bull******************** threw me!


----------



## Tim457

Well I filed my first crosscut today, a 7ppi Disston I needed to make three crosscuts to get some 8/4 walnut out to Eric and there's no way my smaller saw was up to the task. I didn't have time to re-watch Andy's video or printout a fleam angle guide or even check what it should be , so I just tried to stay consistent and maintain the fleam and rake angles the saw already had. Good news is the saw was in decent shape with fairly consistent teeth so it only took a light jointing. Was able to get it nice and sharp.

I think it had more than the 12-15 degrees of rake that is recommended here and had I had time to check that before I would have reduced it. Probably too much fleam too, but oh well. There's always next time. It cut pretty well.


----------



## 69BBNova

Thanks Brit,

I may have seen your video but I cant remember, I remember the one(s) where you are test cutting a pair of hand saws…

But I have read quite a few of you blog entries (here and there), Quite possibly more of yours than any others…

I will admit tiny teeth (12ppi) for the first time was a horror show for me because I could hardly see what I was doing, and it was my only saw (Stanley sharptooth doesn't count).

Thanks for the link Brit I will watch it.


----------



## jordanp

Is there a good way to check the temper of an old hand saw to see if it is even worth restoring?

I had an oldtimer grab one of my saws and bow the blade a bit and tap it with his thumb and say hear that fluid ring sound that means the temper is good..


----------



## Brit

*Jordan* - That's a great question. I must confess to wondering the same thing myself. In turth, to answer your question in a thorough manner, would take a lot more words than I care to write and you care to read, but allow me to put this out there even though others will probably shoot me down.

I have read and tried the following two recorded methods:

1) Thumbing the blade as you described above.
2) Holding the plate at the heel and bending the toe of the plate in an arc until it bends around to meet the heel. First one way, then the other. If the saw plate is still straight afterwards when sighting along the back of the plate and along the toothline, then the temper is supposedly good.

I have also read of a third way of testing that the temper is good, but I haven't tried it personally. It is similar to (1) above, but instead of flexing and thumbing the saw, you hold the saw vertically and hit it with a bone. )

Now here's my take on all this. Whilst (1) can be very satisfying when you thumb a plate just right and a note rings out full of sustain, I'm dubious as to what this really tells us about the state of the temper. The second method probably does have merit though. You see, as a result of being hardened, steel becomes brittle which makes it useless for most tool applications. It is therefore tempered to reduce some of the hardness and increase it's toughness. This also makes the steel more elastic. Elasticity is defined as the extent to which the steel can be deformed or bent and yet return to it's original shape when the external stress if removed. So it is easy to see why test (2) is held up by some as the method for testing the temper of a saw plate.

Having said all that though Jordan, I have restored saws that sang out when thumbed and saws that responded with a dull thud when thumbed. After sharpening, both saws cut wood well. I have also restored saws that I have bent into a U-shape in both directions and which returned to straight afterwards, and saws that were already bent in more than one direction before attempting the bend test. After removing the bends, I can again report that both saws cut wood well.

Now it is undoubtedly true that some vintage saws were made of better quality steel than other saws. You have to remember that some of these saws were made at a time when the quality of steel was constantly evolving, along with the processes/knowledge to perfect steel suitable for saws. That said, all saws were tempered after being hardened otherwise they wouldn't have lasted five minutes. The real question here I believe is: Can a saw plate lose it's temper over time? To the best of my knowledge, the temper of steel can only be changed by exposing the steel to extreme heat below it's hardening temperature over a period of time. A saw won't lose it's temper hanging in a workshop or a garage for 100 years, or even if left out in the hot sun for a prolonged period. It takes a lot higher temperature than that.

So the point I'm making with all this is that, yes the quality of the steel found in vintage saw plates will vary between saw manufacturers, as will the amount and quality of the tempering each manufacturer carried out, but in my opinion most saws can be put back to use with a bit of love.


----------



## summerfi

Andy - Good observations and advice. As an interesting aside, I filed a little Spear & Jackson saw today and found the steel surprisingly soft in comparison to a larger S&J I have. It seems there was quite a bit of variability in old saws, even those made by the same manufacturer.


----------



## 69BBNova

I had to read the manual for my camera, sorta figured out macro…

Now I can see far more troubles with it in these pics (at least on my PC), than even with my glasses on…


----------



## Brit

*Bob* - Yes there is a lot of difference between manufacturers. Filing Disston steel takes more strokes than a W. Tyzack, Sons & Turner saw for example. Don't forget that the thickness of the plate will also make a difference though. Your larger S&J will probably have a thicker plate than your small S&J.

*Nova *- Glad you figured it out. It is good to examine the teeth up close either in a photo or under a magnifying glass. It looks like you've got a few teeth lower than their neighbours, but like I said before it is better than my first attempt.


----------



## Airframer

So, I found these saw files at a thrift shop today for next to nothing. 2 of them look never used at all and the other is a shape I have never seen in a file before but it has "Cantsaw" stamped on it.

Anyone know anything about Heller USA brand files? And what exactly is a Cantsaw?


----------



## Brit

*Eric* - A Cantsaw file is for sharpening 'M' style teeth on the type of crosscut saws used for cutting big limbs off of trees or even felling trees.










This diagram shows the different tooth patterns commonly available on saws of this kind.


----------



## Airframer

Ahhh.. so if I ever find myself in possession of one of those.. I can sharpen it lol. Thanks Brit. Do you have any experience with this brand of saw file?


----------



## Brit

No Eric. I've heard the name, but don't know how good they were.


----------



## Brit

Here you go Eric: http://www.simondsinternational.com/company/history14.php

I'm hitting the sack now.


----------



## Airframer

I decided to quit being lazy and just google it lol… found this..

http://www.simondsinternational.com/company/history14.php

The last 3 paragraphs read:

*Over the course of the next 30 years or so, more and more of the Heller business was moved from Newark to Newcomerstown and by 1950, the Newcomerstown facility occupied over 250,000 square feet and Heller was one of the top three file brands in the world (along with Nicholson and Simonds). By 1953, Heller closed down its Newark factories and moved fully to Newcomerstown.

By the early 1950's most of the third generation Hellers had passed and the fourth generation was not as interested in running the family business. Soon, they were approached by Simonds to be acquired, and on July 1st, 1955, Simonds acquired Heller Bros.

The combined file businesses of Simonds and Heller were now #2 in the world, second only to Nicholson. Simonds continued to produce files in Fitchburg until 1960, when all file manufacturing was consolidated in Newcomerstown. And that is the story of another of the great American tool brands - Heller files.*

Edit: You beat me to it


----------



## TobyC

Andy,

Did you randomly find those images?

I never consider "temper" when evaluating an old saw. There are other things that actually matter!


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## jordanp

Thanks for the info Andy, now I just have to browse around the OK interwebs and figure out where I should start on restoring two of these saw I picked up last weekend..


----------



## jordanp

Toby I didn't consider it either until my neighbor (the old timer) started in about it when he had seen my new acquisition of some old saws.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Alright knuckleheads. Add me to the fray. I'm starting to lust for some decent handsaws. I'm in the market for decent crosscut panel saw. Thinkin' a disston D8 8tpi or the like. Preferably sharpened. 
Any guidance appreciated. How much should expect to pay? Heck, do ya'll have one you want to sell.

Red.


----------



## Brit

*Toby* - Don't be silly! I'd been availing myself of your wisdom over on Woodnet earlier in the evening, so when this question came up, I went back and shamelessly stole the photos that you had shamelessly stolen from somewhere else. )


----------



## chrisstef

Red - I think that youll find the price a bit on the higher side. Id say around $150 and youll have a d8 that's ready to go. IMO I would find one in the wild and clean it up myself then send it out to have it sharpened. Youll probably save around $50-75 depending on how the teeth are as found. A soup to nuts sharpening should run you around $75-90.


----------



## jordanp

Check with Lynn Dowd he usually has some Disston D8's laying around and his prices very fair.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Thanks Jordan. I've seen a couple on ebay go for the $50-60 range….that claim to be sharpened. I realize your at the mercy of another's sharpening ability.


----------



## jordanp

At Lynn's tool sale this past weekend i did notice some D8's for around $40 but they probably needed a little cleanup some of them seemed reasonably sharp.


----------



## planepassion

Red, the Ebay/LJ/tool dealer route would be the fastest to acquire the saws you want…and the most expensive. Plus, by outsourcing the sharpening I think that you will be cheating yourself out of learning a very valuable skill. Once you can sharpen saws, it opens up a world of opportunities. For example, you can pick up an inexpensive, dull saw in the wild and refurb it to your specifications. There is an initial investment in tools (files, sawsets, magnifying glasses) but once you have those things you'll never shy from sharpening your saws again. Estate and garage sales are an amazing source of quality, low-cost saws and I've picked up some beauties for $5.00-$10.00.

You mentioned a panel saw. I differentiate between a panel saw (18-22" in length) and a handsaw (24-26" long). I use each for different tasks.

For breaking down long/wide boards to their general parts size I use handsaws in combination with my sawbench. I have a bunch of them but have found that I can do most everything with one rip saw (a Disston 6 ppi No. 12) and one XC saw (a Disston No. 7, 8 ppi). I love the older models because the handles better fit my medium-sized hands. However, there are tons of No. 8 XC saws out there and you could easily pick them up at estate/garage sales. You may have to go the ebay route for a rip saw.

I also have older panel saws in the 20-22" length. I can get by with three of them. 1-Warranted Superior 7ppi saw converted from XC to rip for "fine" rip cuts. I use that on box bottom and other cuts where I want to minimize tearout. 2. Disston No. 7 20" panel saw, 8ppi. I use this for smaller pieces, often chucked in my bench's face vise, to make fine cuts. I LOVE the handle on this saw because it fits my hand best. 3. Disston D-8 22" panel saw, 8 ppi. I use this saw on stock secured in my bench face vise. After cutting pieces nearly to size I finish dimensioning them with handplanes.

I would strongly recommend that you handle as many saws as you can out there to determine which handles you like. The hang can vary a lot too and you want to get a feel for that too. Stay away from kinks (unless you want sawsmithing experience like I did), as well as missing teeth or missing sawnuts.


----------



## jordanp

I picked up a Warranted 5 TPI Rip Tooth saw from him for $20 I took it home and ripped a piece of oak and Jatoba right off the bat. it wasn't the fastest cut, but it cut.
Really wide kerf on it. Thought I might send it up to Bad Axe tool works for an overhaul, just so I have a good example of what a hand saw should do for when I start working on my own saws.


----------



## GregInMaryland

Left field question among all these steel/sharpening posts-is Cherry an acceptable choice for a handle?

Greg


----------



## summerfi

Greg - Cherry is a fairly hard and stable, closed grain wood. While it is not a traditional wood for making saw handles, there is no reason it wouldn't work well. There have been one or two cherry handles posted on this site recently. I would suggest you use a piece that is quartersawn. If you want to go the traditional route, use European beech for British made saws, beech for early American saws, or apple for later American saws. A few high end saws were made with rosewood, and I've seen saws with factory walnut handles.

This seems like an opportune time to ask a question that I've been mulling around. If this has been discussed before, I apologize. I presume that beech was used by British sawmakers because it was readily available, probably inexpensive, stable, durable, and attractive when quartersawn. I assume early American makers used beech for the same reasons plus it was traditional. But for the life of me, I can't understand why the Americans eventually switched to apple. It's not an unattractive wood, but in my opinion there are more attractive species available. Certainly other species had to be in greater supply. Anyone know the reason?


----------



## Airframer

My guess would be market conditions and a good price on apple. Most of the apple handles I have seen have been tinted (dyed) so as to make them attractive and with anything here in the states.. it all comes down to money and cost which is why I suspect a deal of some sort on that particular species of wood.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Jordan- That guy's shop looks cool. I have family in Garland. I'll have to remember that.

Brad- Really appreciate your input. I've really only started to use hand saws regularly in my work this past year. I don't have power miter saw in my shop, and I would like a hand saw option to break down pieces into approximate sizes. Hence the crosscut.

I've got some decisions to make. Like with hand planes, I find I enjoy working wood/making furniture more than I enjoy rehabbing tools. I know some guys are the opposite, more power to ya. So I'm always asking myself if I want to invest the time rust hunting and rehabbing…..or should I just sell another piece of furniture, pump that money into the economy and buy a tool ready to go? LN???;-)

As far as sharpening, the DIYer in me will win out eventually. I just want to make sure I will use hand saws enough to justify the investment.


----------



## Airframer

I have family in Garland

Really? My wife and I are from Garland. She still has a lot of family there but mine live in KC now of all places. I attended a semester at North Garland HS before moving to KC back on '92.

Small world!


----------



## summerfi

Since announcing myself on this forum as a saw non-collector, more and more saws seem to be showing up in my shop. I've become particularly fond of old British made saws, not because they are necessarily better saws than the American ones, but just because I've always liked old things that you don't see every day. The British saws were also very stylish. And it is a plus that my great x 4 grandma was born in Sheffield.

My latest project is a 20" Wheatman & Smith crosscut. I'm not sure if you would call this a panel saw, a gentleman's saw, or what. The handle is quite small. It looks just like a larger saw, but in a smaller scale. The plate is an attractive gun metal blue, which I assume is from age and oxidation. Rather than trying to make it a shiny silver color again, I chose to buff it with fine steel wool and mineral spirits, retaining the blue color. The beech handle cleaned up well, but it did need a repair to the upper horn. The stamp reads Wheatman & Smith, Sheffield, Cast Steel, and has the arm and hammer logo.


----------



## jordanp

My first job was in garland. about 15-20 Minutes from where I live now


----------



## jordanp

Doesn't that Split-nut indicate pre 1860-ish? I thought it did for American Saws but not sure about British Saws.


----------



## summerfi

I'd say you're in the ballpark, Jordan. Others will probably have a better idea on that than me. I was initially planning to take the handle off for restoration, but removing the first split nut didn't go very easily, so I chose to put it back and leave the others alone.


----------



## jordanp

Well she's a beauty.. Looks like it's in great condition. Used not Abused..


----------



## TobyC

*Toby - Don't be silly! I'd been availing myself of your wisdom over on Woodnet earlier in the evening, so when this question came up, I went back and shamelessly stole the photos that you had shamelessly stolen from somewhere else. )*








I don't know about wisdom, I just try to help folks when I can. And you may steal from me anytime my friend.


----------



## Tim457

Nope Bob, definitely not a collector. That one looks great and a nice find for one that age.

Red, I hear you. I find I enjoy rehabbing more than I thought I would, but buying all vintage tools takes so much time rehabbing, that to get a usable set is still a work in progress for me. I'd rather have some of that time for woodworking. If you have the money from commissions, then don't feel bad buying new, those guys are craftsman that need to eat too. Good news is there are a good number of quality hand saw makers in the US now. You can go with Lie Nielsen or a number of smaller makers. A few I know like Blackburn tools and Bad Axe Tool Works I don't see anything but backsaws right now, but I'm sure the guys here can help you find more if you want that.


----------



## jordanp

This thread inspired me to mess with the 5 old saw I purchased last weekend..

I took the handle off the one in the worst condition and carved it a little rounding off the edges and thinning the horn. Polished up the screws a little as well. All while trying to leave the patina.. Thinned out some minwax stain with mineral spirits and gave it a light wipe coat.. Then waxed it.









Under all that ware and tare I found someone's name stamped on it.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Tim- I hear ya brother. With hand saws it's tough to ignore that value that is out there with vintage. But ya, I have no problem supporting the new quality tool makers. I appreciate what they do.

I was a little surprised TFWW website sells Pax saws. Those handles look painful. 
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/dept/TS/item/PZ-HS303.XX


----------



## planepassion

Red, based on the situation you described, you make a compelling case for buying new saws. Lie Nielsen has traveling tool events where you can try the tools out. As a matter of fun, I would recommend attending one. If you are evaluating their tools, it's a must do, due diligence activity prior to purchase. However, one of their panel saws runs $225 the last time I looked. That's a far cry from the $5 Disston No 8 that has become my go-to crosscut saw…or the $5.00 estate sale Disston No 8 panel saw that I use regularly.

If you're a professional woodworker making your living selling "handcrafted" items to high-end customers willing to pay a premium for them then….well. I made that argument earlier I believe 

Summerfi, thank you for posting pics of your British vintage handsaw. I wholeheartedly agree with you. The handles are quite pleasing to the eye. I have one Spear and Jackson handsaw and the handle is comfy to use.


----------



## Tim457

Yeah that Pax handle is pretty bad. It looks like there's not as many people making panel and hand saws as I thought. Lee Valley only carries Pax too. Wenzloff is still behind in production and rather expensive. Highland doesn't have anything but Lie Nielsen or a plastic handle Bahco hardpoint saw. Maybe Wally can make another.

I agree Brad a Lie Nielsen event would be fun. I'd go try everything and hopefully not end up poor. I also agree a hand saw is one of the easiest things to clean up if you buy it in good condition in the first place. Whether you are or aren't going to do your own sharpening it doesn't matter if it's sharp when you get it or not. You can send it out if you want to. My $2 Disston D8 was sharp straight from the estate sale I got it from. I only cleaned that one up for fun.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Ya, I made it to a Toolworks show in Amana Iowa this past year. But saws weren't on my radar then, maybe next time. The LN area was very busy, busier than any other booth(even LV). I think a lot of people want to try their tools. For that reason, I've opened my shop to other local woodworkers to try them if they want. I got all these second hand this past year. I thought I'd sell any I didn't like….none of them are for sale;-)


----------



## Brit




----------



## racerglen

Andy I agree, but we need a separate spit up cloth..


----------



## TobyC

What, you don't want to share?


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Snicker, not trying gloat. I already gloated enough on HPOYD when I got them. I was just making the point that once you have and enjoy some LN tools….you just want more…and more…lol.

If it helps any, they were all rusty and neglected when I got them. Poor thing. Look at it. 









Now if you really want hate me, I got them all about 1/2 price. Otherwise I never would have been able to afford them. I did have to pay retail for this. I friggin love this saw.


----------



## Tim457

Oh so you already have one Red, now you just need one more. Can't split a family up after all.


----------



## chrisstef

Did you get a new slipper to store that block plane in yet Red? Could try LL Bean, or these might be more your style:


----------



## john2005

I think Andy said all that could be said.


----------



## richardwootton

I picked up a big Harvey W. Peace rip saw yesterday at the flea market. I don't know much about it, but I want to get it all sharpened up and put it to use. Here are some crappy photos I shot with my phone. I'll post some more after I get it all cleaned up and ready to use.


----------



## planepassion

Red, I have the same LN dovetail saw and love it too. While sawing some dovetails on a recent drawer project, I game myself a nasty cut with it. Serves me right for underestimating it and taking its sharpness for granted.

Richard, that is one fine piece of vintage saw you have going on there. I'm liking that decorative handle a lot. Looks like it'll make a really nice user for you.


----------



## Tim457

Very nice find Richard. I wouldn't have known the name except just today I was looking at Wenzloff & Sons site and saw they like Harvey Peace saws enough to use them as their model. There it says they were apparently a Brooklyn saw maker in the 1860s to 1890s.


----------



## Wally331

Here is the page on wk fine tools on Harvey Peace, there is a goldmine of info on almost every saw maker in the last 200 years over there. I'm looking to get either my atkins D-8 copy restored this weekend, or maybe that big old Disston no 7 I have, it could be a d8 too though, not sure.


----------



## theoldfart

Wally, what's the etch look like?


----------



## summerfi

I have a question about Warranted Superior medallions. I'm most familiar with the eagle medallion, which came in several versions. There are several other WS medallions though (see pic below of medallions copied from the internet). My understanding is that some British sawmakers used the WS medallion on their saws, and some of these made their way to North America. When saws began being produced in the USA, some makers used the eagle WS medallion on their second line saws. I have a medallion like the one to the right of the eagle. Is there any way of dating this style medallion, or knowing what saw it came off of, or where it was made?


----------



## TobyC

If it has a banner with "Deo Adjuvante Labor Proficit", which translates to "With God's help our labour is successful", It's a "Sheffield" Warranted Superior. (which doesn't necessarily mean the saw was made in Sheffield)
If it has an eagle it was probably made in or for sale in North America. A label screw with Warranted Superior and an eagle could have been made by any saw manufacturer, not just in the US.


----------



## TobyC

That style (I think) could be 1860s-1920s, Andy should be able to narrow that down a bit.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

"Deo Adjuvante Labor Proficit"…..ohhhh. I like that.

Ya guys. The only decent hand saws I have are a LN dovetail and a veritas small crosscut. The LN is awesome. The veritas…...I have no complaints about the function. But the aesthetics…eehh. The "composite" spine looks and feels like hard plastic.

Looking at some of the other new saw makers prices, LN isn't too bad pricewise. Still thinkin' I'll look vintage for now.


----------



## Wally331

I'm still looking to get rid of a 12 inch saw back and a 10 inch saw back, so if your interested in a saw of either of those lengths, I'll make one up for ya . I'll even file any reasonable tooth configuration and give you your choice of wood for the tote. I'd probably ask around 75$ or so.

@ the oldfart, I dunno at the moment, the disston is covered in thick rust. I bought another just like it at the same time. I ended up having to take a wire wheel in an angle grinder to it, turns out there were very little pits, so I am hoping for the best with this one. Pics will most likely happen tomorrow.


----------



## Brit

*Bob* - Your question about Warranted Superior medallions is a GREAT question. I can only speak for the ones that originated in Britain. In the composite image you posted, these are the only two from this side of the pond (marked 1 and 2).










The story behind the British Warranted Superior medallion is an interesting one, but too involved to go into in this thread. I will write a blog entry this weekend on my Saw Talk blog to explain it in more detail, so look out for it. Making it a separate blog post will mean it is searchable in the future for anyone who wants to find out more about the subject.


----------



## Brit

Actually I didn't look hard enough. The medallion bottom right is also British.


----------



## Brit

Well education is a wonderful thing. I'm now going to retract my statement that only three of the above medallions are British. You'll have to read my upcoming blog post to discover why I'm changing my opinion. Suffice it to say my research is revealing a very intriguing and confusing tangle of marketing ploys and one-upmanship.


----------



## Brit

I do love a good mystery. )


----------



## donwilwol

A British saw mystery. The anticipation is killing me.


----------



## racerglen

"The game is afoot Watson !"


----------



## waho6o9

bowling a googly?


----------



## summerfi

Andy - Can't wait to read your blog. These old saws are definitely interesting. With family roots in Sheffield several generations ago, it is of particular interest to me. They need to invent a device that you can scan old tools to reveal their history.


----------



## donwilwol

What an idea Bob. I want in on that venture.


----------



## TobyC

Andy,

All five, and it's a registered trademark.

Yes?


----------



## DonBroussard

Andy-The butler did it in the workshop with heft and hubris . . .


----------



## summerfi

I was sawing a piece of hardwood lumber tonight to make a new handsaw handle when I realized, "I'm sawing this with a 150+ year old saw that I just restored and sharpened myself!" That, friends, was an amazing feeling.


----------



## jordanp

Awesome experience Bob..


----------



## Brit

Ain't it just though Bob. Welcome to the slippery slope.


----------



## TobyC

How do you say 'ain't" with an English accent??


----------



## Brit

That would depend on whereabouts in England you come from Toby.

Since this thread was the catalyst for my latest Saw Talk blog post regarding Warranted Superior medallions, I thought I'd insert a link to the post here:

http://lumberjocks.com/Brit/blog/38689


----------



## 69BBNova

I have a couple pics of the 7ppi saw I got today, paid $8 its fine with me and its in pretty good shape…

The medallion is marked warranted superior but the saw looks like it was made by Atkins…

I'm currently unable to post a full size pic because opposite of a few days ago I now can't remember how to turn off Macro mode…LOL


----------



## summerfi

Looks like you've got an Atkins No. 54, Nova.


----------



## Brit

Nice job Nova.


----------



## 69BBNova

Thanks Guys…

It has a bit of curve but that's no big deal…

I got a really messed up cheapy saw dead straight, but I want more practice before I do anything to my better ones.

Forgot to add its a 24"


----------



## JustJoe

The etch says it's an Atkins #54. Does the medallion look like a replacement?


----------



## 69BBNova

Hey JustJoe,

Since I brought the saw home and cleaned up the etch I've been wondering that myself…

The medallion and fasteners are steel, but I haven't looked real good at it yet for fit.


----------



## JustJoe

Let me know if it turns out to be the wrong medallion. I've got a glass jar (Arrabiata spaghetti sauce, yumm…) full of sawnuts and medallions. I know there are some steel Atkins in there.


----------



## 69BBNova

I'm guessing the medallion must be wrong because it says warranted superior…

Its 13/16" dia. steel…

If you do find one, when you get a chance PM me and we'll work out the details…

Thanks Joe


----------



## Wally331

As I sad on Friday, I finally got around to cleaning up that old disston. It started out with quite a bit of surface rust, bug it looked salvageable. I wire wheeled it with an angle grinder to take the heavy stuff off. I like this method better then scraping because the wire brush is softer than the plate, so you can't hurt it at all. After that it was normal routine, wet sanding at 400 grit with simple green as a lubricant.the handle still needs a bit more sanding and more blo, and possibly shellac.



































Great blog btw Brit, I can't say that I've seen any medallions other then he warranted superior with the eagle. I'm waiting for that database 

edit: It turned out to be a no. 7 btw, so it matches my little 20 inch no. 7 panel saw. Father and son pics will be posted eventually.


----------



## lysdexic

Hey. What are you guys talking about over here?


----------



## TobyC

Apple pie and ice cream, that's what we're talking about.


----------



## jordanp

Oh yea there is a little talk of hand saws also..


----------



## summerfi

Wally - That's a dandy saw. I'd be proud to have it in my till. In fact I do have one very nearly like it, and I like it a lot. Nice job on the resto too.


----------



## terryR

Nice job, Wally. I love my Disston No.7…made a new tote for it from Beech…can't wait till I can sharpen it!

Guys, I'm about to buy, build, beg, borrow, or steal a saw vise. Any personal preferences on wood vs store bought steel as far as dampening vibrations? I want the gorgeous Gramercy vice…but have plenty of birch ply already in the shop.










Of course, I know the correct answer, but still WANT the Gramercy! lol


----------



## TobyC




----------



## chrisstef

Its a no brainer Terry. Build your own. Id suggest 30" long. One thing that I might change without the knowledge how to, is to be able to lean the vise and saw away from me just a touch. When I was watching a Roy episode that I post a bit ago, the vise he was showing had the ability to lean away from him slightly. I found that filing at a perfect 90 degree angle to the saw plate was a bit tiring on the elbow. I think that filing "downhill" would be a little bit easier. Just my 2 cents worth


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Have you seen this Terry?









How to:

http://www.closegrain.com/2011/06/building-lie-nielsen-saw-vise.html/
http://www.renaissancewoodworker.com/saw-vise/

I just know Thomas Lie-Nielsen uses a shop made vise.


----------



## terryR

Yeah, I knew the right answer…thanks for the link, Red. Looks like that simple one you posted would go right in me leg vice!

Stef, thanks for that tip! Maybe a wedge clamped against the back of the saw vice? And one in front, too, hmmm. Gonna look at a few of you guys' builds, and morph something nice together.


----------



## kiyoshigawa

Terry, I actually made one of the lie nielsen saw vices linked above with a couple modifications and it's worked pretty well for me. See project page here:



I'd be happy to answer any questions about the build if you go this route.


----------



## Brit

My 2 cents Terry - I made my vise jaws 28" long, although the longest saw I will ever buy will be 26" long. I don't have the length of stroke required to fully utilize a 28" saw, so I don't want to lift another 2" of steel with every stroke unnessarily. Your arm will feel more comfortable if it more or less forms a right angle when filing, so take that into consideration when you finalize the height. Make a vise that does not vibrate or bend away from you with each forward stroke, mass is good. Bevel the face of the jaws by 1 or 2 degrees so they meet right along the top edge. If you built a 28" long vise and used your leg vise as a clamp, you could always add a C-clamp at each end of the saw vise if a bit more pressure is needed at the ends of the vise jaws.


----------



## 69BBNova

Some before and after pics of my No. 7 handle repair…

I like the lighter color of wallys handle much more, BLO soak was a BIG mistake…

Still need a whole set of teeth.

*TobyC*- I just noticed your profile pic, I cracked up laughing, I LOVE IT!!!


----------



## chrisstef

So im looking at possibly buying these saws. Top one is a 16" Disston with split nuts and the bottom is an open handled disston at 12", also with split nuts. Looking through thedissontian website im having a hell of a time figuring out what they might be.

Any thoughts?


----------



## JustJoe

Top one looks like a #7 to me. No idea on the bottom one - what's it say, what's the medallion, how many tpi in what configuration etc.?

I looked at my jar of sawnuts and medallions - I've got four Atkins but they are all 1", not 13/16th.


----------



## Brit

The panel saw is No.8, but I'm not sure about the backsaw. It isn't a No.4 as they were only made with a closed tote. The only open tote 12" saws they made were Jackson and Davis second line saws, apart from a few oddities that have turned up. The shape of the tote definitely looks like a Disston, but the plate looks like it has been cut down from a 14" to me.


----------



## chrisstef

From what ive gathered from the sellers pics it says Disston and Sons Cast Steel Warranted in typical fashion. No indication on ppi or configuration, the saw nut appeared to be 1897-1914 but again, no real detailed pics, so its hard to say.

I saw the same thing you came up with Andy. It seems that Disston made some open handled saws but theyre pretty spotty in terms of identification.

I want 'em.


----------



## donwilwol

Its a Disston #70 no? I have one just like it. Its my go to dovetail saw.


----------



## chrisstef

It could be Don, but im not sure. This ones got a medallion instead of just the 2 nuts and the alignment of them is different. Removal of the handle may tell the story but unless I can get my mitts on it im not sure.


----------



## donwilwol

It looks identical to mine. Mine has a medallion and the alignment looks just like this


----------



## chrisstef

Yup, I think youre right Don. I just looked at your saw after I posted my last reply. That would get me half way home in terms of disston dovetail saws. Id need the 69 and 71 … but then id be a collector wouldn't I?


----------



## 69BBNova

Thanks JustJoe,

Would it be sacrilegious to use a 1" medallion to replace it with…

Normally I wouldn't, but I'm wondering what you guys think about it…

Never going to sell it anyhow.


----------



## summerfi

Need a little help from my friends! In my quest to satisfy my newly acquired saw addiction, I have one I can't identify. Perhaps someone with more knowledge or someone with access to Schaffer's books will know. Below are pictures just as it came to me (including the sanding in the center part of the plate done by the seller).

Description: 28" rip saw, 4 ppi graduating to 5 1/2 ppi at the toe. Heavy plate measuring 0.048 at the heel and more or less 0.038 at the nib, but variable depending on exactly where you measure. Plate slightly arched on top (opposite of a skew). Beech handle with nice fleck. Handle almost a full inch thick at the rear, tapering to about 7/8" at the front. Four split nuts averaging about 15/32 diameter. The slot is completely gone in 2 of the nuts and nearly gone in the other 2 - not sure how I would ever remove the handle. Owner's name stamped on both sides of handle; as best as I can tell it says J.R. Curell. Small and simple plate stamp consisting only of the maker's name and the words CAST STEEL.

I'm thinking this may be quite an old saw based on the following:

1. Simplicity of the maker's stamp. The letters are small, lightly stamped, and somewhat eroded, but as best I can tell the maker's name is I. FEAK. The period after the I is in the middle of the line rather than at the bottom. The K is difficult to see and possibly could be an R. It is possible there could be another letter after the K but I'm doubtful.
2. Design of the handle, i.e. broad cheeks, small part forward of the cheeks (whatever that's called), very small and dainty lamb's tongue for a saw this big, rounded top handle nib.
3. No medallion and the split nuts are quite small.
4. arched top of saw plate.

Anyone recognize this saw?


----------



## summerfi

The name could possibly be I. FEARN. Through google, I've found the surname Fearn (not connected to sawmaking) in some old British records. The name Fearn derives from the Gaelic word for alder tree.


----------



## JustJoe

don't limit your search to first names with I. They hadn't finished inventing the alphabet back then so anyone with a name like Joe, John, Jacob or Jingleheimer also used the initial I.


----------



## JustJoe

That saw I think is a #7 and Brit says is a D-8 -
I still think it's a #7. It has a straight top with a stepdown in front with a little nib sitting up there proudly. The D-8 has a nicely curved sloping top with no step and no nib. I could be wrong, I often am, but I don't think it's a D-8. Besides, I've got a few of each and it looks a lot more like my #7s than my D-8s or D8s.


----------



## summerfi

The internet is so awesome. I've tied the surname Fearn to the file making trade in Sheffield through this rather gruesome story.

From: *Sheffield in the Eighteenth Century*

FRANK FEARN. 53

fighter, living in the Park, who had enlisted into the 19th 
Foot, was executed for robbing a shop in York….Frank Fearn was a good-for- 
nothing fellow, who as an apprentice had caused infinite 
trouble to his master, Mr. Ellis, file-maker of Westbar Green. 
In 1782, under the pretence that a watch club had been formed 
at Bradfield, he persuaded Mr. Nathan Andrews, a respe(5lable 
jeweller in High Street, to go to that village with watches. 
Pretending to show him a near way, Fearn decoyed him into 
a solitary place on Loxley Edge, and there brutally murdered 
him. He was apprehended the next night when in bed in 
Hawley Croft, and being positively identified was condemned 
and executed. The judge, on passing sentence, had ordered 
the body to be dissedled ; but afterwards, impressed by the 
heinousness of the crime, he directed that it should be hung in 
chains on a gibbet near the scene of the murder. And this 
was done. Mather pointed the moral in two ballads, in one of 
which the felon was represented as humbly repentant, but this 
hardly agrees with the story that on the scaffold he said, " My 
master has often told me I should die with my shoes on, so I 
shall pull them off and make him a liar.


----------



## Brit

JustJoe - No, I said it was a No.8, not a D8.

Circa. 1850. Compare the tote on this No.8 from the Disstonian Institute website.



















with the tote on the saw Stef posted. Stef's saw looks like it has an apple tote and the No.7 had a beech tote. Since his saw is only 16" long it only has three screws instead of the four that were found on longer saws. Also note the straight back.










The No.7 on the other hand has a different shaped tote.


----------



## summerfi

This shows that various members of the Fearn family were involved in the cutlery and saw handle making trades in Sheffield in the 1800s. I believe my saw is definitely a Fearn.


----------



## chrisstef

Solid sleuthing my good man Andy. Now I need these saws. Needs em bad like.


----------



## JustJoe

Yes - I misread your original post. I saw the 8 and my mind filled in the D-.


----------



## Brit

*Bob* - That is a lovely saw. I have never come across a saw made by I Fearn before. From the shape of the tote I would say it is definitely early and possibly pre-medallion. The absence of a medallion doesn't necessarily mean the saw pre-dates medallions as some makers didn't use them. It wouldn't surprise me if it was pre-1800. Personally, I wouldn't do anything to it until you know more about it. Post it on Backsaw.net and be patient for the answer.


----------



## donwilwol

info overload!!!


----------



## TobyC

Fearn, James (, Saw handle maker).
Residing at 6 Robert Street, in 1852.
Recorded in: White's Gazetteer & General Directory of Sheffield - 1852.

"I" is usually what they used for "J" when showing only the initial. Many English saw makers didn't make all of the saw, and having saws made with your name on them was common. This is my best guess.


----------



## shampeon

A while back I bought this Disston backsaw from Don W. Finally had a couple minutes to clean the plate (polishing compound and aluminum foil), polish the saw nuts, and sand & finish the tote (BLO + shellac).

















The medallion dates it to the late 1870s.


----------



## TobyC

Nice Ian,

Add a little Johnson's Paste Wax and Bob's yer Uncle!


----------



## Tim457

Wow, love the sleuthing. I think my google skills are not up to par. That and I need to find some of the hidden sources you guys use.

Bob, were are you finding these gems?

Stef, I take it they're pricey or you'd already have them?

Looking great Ian.


----------



## chrisstef

Price is actually very reasonable. Cheap when considering the vintage. Im just waiting on a return reply from the seller. Im ready to squeeze on em.


----------



## MisterInquisitive

Harvey W. Peace used cherry wood for most of his saw handles. Bit of an outlier but you're more likely to get cherry in appropriate sizes these days than apple.


----------



## CL810

Ian - separated at birth?


----------



## chrisstef

I swear brass, steel, and apple are like the bra, garter, and panties of woodworking.


----------



## lysdexic

^"Add a little Johnson's Paste Wax and Bob's yer Uncle!"

+1 - a little paste wax and it's perfect.


----------



## shampeon

CL810: wonder twins activate!

I use the amber Lundmarks. Love that turpentine smell.


----------



## Brit

Oh well if we're showing off our Disstons. )


----------



## TobyC

One big wooden tooth! Must cut terrible. http://www.forums.woodnet.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yellowbiggrin.gif


----------



## chrisstef

That's just dirty Andy. Give it a hug for me would ya.


----------



## CL810

You know Andy, right on the heels of what Stef said, that pic looks pornographic in a Victoria's Secrets kind of way.

Or were you just wanting to tease him? )


----------



## planepassion

Andy, your brass-backed Disston gleams. I'll bet she likes walks on the beach and silk sheets too. How does she cut? And, out of curiosity, how does its sawplate compare in thickness to others in your nest? The reason I ask is because my Disston backsaw's sawplate is definitely thicker than my J.H. Noble's sawplate…


----------



## DanKrager

Well guys, Brit put the underwear on the saw because he's ashamed of the teeth. They must need whitening or something… 
But…it's nice underwear, Brit.
DanK


----------



## Airframer

Just won this guy..










Looks an awful lot like what Gramercy based theirs on. Hopefully the pics do it justice and no big surprises when it arrives.


----------



## AnthonyReed

Nice score AF. Congrats man.


----------



## waho6o9

Eric scores, awesome!


----------



## racerglen

Very nice Eric !
Does it have the rubber jaw liners like Toby posted in that old ad ? Or do you have to wait to find out /


----------



## Airframer

RE: Rubber liners.. I'll have to wait and find out.


----------



## 69BBNova

Good score Airframer,

I'm looking forward to some of the saws up and running, especially the No.9…

I still have the handle for the No. 12, I'm begging you let me send it…

I really mean it.


----------



## TobyC

This

And that

Oh, and this too


----------



## CL810

Eric, does it swivel at the base?


----------



## TobyC

That would be a No. 3, which looks different, so no. Sorry CL810.


----------



## TobyC

That's a No. 3


----------



## lysdexic

Toby strong, strong vise - but the tat - even stronger.


----------



## Daveyd

Very nice work!


----------



## terryR

Love the no.3, Toby, and the ink as well!

So, what's the deal with these Tyzack Nonpareil saws…










Nickel chrome alloy for a blade? Hate the tote, but there's a couple on fleaBay for about $80 each shipped. Worth $80?


----------



## DanKrager

Terry, I have two of them, and they have eliminated the "need" for any other back saws. I bought mine in 1982, I think, and have cherished them since. I'm not a connoisseur of saws, just saying that I just have no need for any others. I don't remember what I paid for them, but I thought they were pretty classy at the time.








What specifically don't you like about the tote? Not a setup question, just trying to identify points of improvement if I every get a round tuit to remake them. I've not noticed them being uncomfortable or awkward and they cut FAST. I've sharpened each only once since new, changing the big one to a rip and keeping the little one as a crosscut.
DanK


----------



## terryR

Dan, Thanks! I was sure I'd seen others on here, but when I read 'nickel chrome alloy' I got scared. Just bought that lovely 12" rip pictured above…

The totes in your photo sure look a better color, but the guy I just got off eBay looks a hideous red IMO. As far as shape, they look kinda square to me…the horns are cut square. And, I expect a sexy lamb's tongue from a real saw. LOL. If the saw nuts work, I'll probably replace the tote with something more classic…more pronounced hook, a nib or two, a more defined chamfer toward the shiny brass.

Only because I don't know how to sharpen…yet. A true enabler would be more concerned over the teeth, huh?


----------



## Mosquito

Doing a little "shop cleaning" and have had these kicking around for a while… Anyone interested in any of them? I'm fairly certain it's a D-8's 26", a Woodrough & McParlin 28", and a rough D8 26" (good etch, though)

Images also links to larger pictures






I've got a lot more pictures of them here: Sale Saws


----------



## CL810

TPI of first two?


----------



## Mosquito

I believe they're both about 8TPI (second is stamped 8TPI, first I can't read)
(Same order as above)

Images also links to larger pictures


----------



## Mosquito

For anyone who saw it earlier, I've removed the first 2, as they're no longer available


----------



## summerfi

The following scientific laws (albeit tongue in cheek) were empirically discovered through personal experience. There are likely other yet to be discovered laws.

*Bob's Universal Laws of Saw Restoration*

1. Saws never look as good in person as they do in online auction pictures.

2. Rust is always the worst on the presentation side of a saw.

3. Rust on the presentation side of a saw is always worst in the area of the etch or stamp.

4. If a handle screw is missing, it is always the medallion, also known as the label screw.

5. Any missing medallions are sure to be rare and expensive or impossible to replace.

6. Split nuts, when removed, are certain to fall to the floor and roll to the spot where they are most difficult to find and hardest to retrieve.

7. If a saw handle is dropped, it always lands on one of the horns. Said horn always snaps off.

8. If a saw tooth can break during setting, it will.

9. When filing a fine pitch crosscut saw, the filer will always file at least one tooth in the wrong direction.

10. A telephone and/or doorbell is guaranteed to ring when one's hands are covered in a combination of rust, mineral spirits, WD-40 and paste wax.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

^ Funny stuff Bob. I can relate with some of my hand plane purchases and restores.

Sure Mos. Now somebody's got some saws to sell I ordered some saws from LJ Wally331. Pretty stoked to get them. Kid's got some talent.


----------



## Brit

*Bob* - I concur! Here's a few more that I have found to be true.

1. Ebay sellers have special cameras that take grainy, dark and out of focus photos.
2. If a surface can be name stamped, it will be.
3. Saws that have been previously restored have usually been ruined.
4. "May need a sharpen." translates to "The teeth resemble the Himalaya." 
5. "Recently sharpened." translates to "Sometime in the last millenium." 
6. "Handle securely fitted to plate." translates to "No less that 1/32" gap either side of the back where it fits in the handle." 
7. "Nice patina." translates to "Rusty, neglected saw." 
8. The saw file you need is always the one you haven't got.


----------



## donwilwol

How about these.

eBay sellers have their own definition of vintage.
rare typically mean the most expensive of the three on the page.
as-found means unrestorable.


----------



## chrisstef

Ill add:

Barn fresh means smelling like Brits underwear drawer and once donned scuba gear.


----------



## donwilwol

Cleaning out grampa's toolbox means just picked them up at a flea market yesterday.


----------



## 69BBNova

Ebay Discriptions…

Vintage = Ready to Fall Apart

Nice Patina = Just a Few Holes

Freshly Painted = Can Leaked all Over it

Need Help to Load = Stuck under Giant Sequoia

Already Loaded = Fell on My Wife's Kia


----------



## summerfi

I felt sorry for this little Spear & Jackson, and it followed me home. At one time I think it was about a 20" panel saw, but now it's a mere 14 1/2". I filed a new nib on her and made a new handle, and now I think she's rather cute.


----------



## JustJoe

I like the handle. I usually like them dark, but that one looks pretty good as a blonde.


----------



## RGtools

Gloat time…

This is the biggest saw I own….the the vise still holds it.


----------



## theoldfart

Thats awesome Ryan. Better lock the shop cuz there are some serious saw freaks around here and that is the mother lode of saw vises(vices).


----------



## Brit

Lovely tote Bob.

Awesome vise Ryan.

Carry on.


----------



## RGtools

I just love how robust the thing is. The parts are made in a way to last a heck of a long time and all the "wear" parts are built to be swapped or adjusted in a matter of seconds.

Check out what I mean.










The cam lever has a bearing to decrease frictional wear and even so, they used a movable anvil to adjust the tension.

And the spring is replaced with a cotter pin…dead simple.


----------



## theoldfart

Where'd you find it?


----------



## summerfi

Andy, I have a question for you. Of all the British saws you've handled, what woods, other than beech, have you seen used in original totes? I'm guessing an occasional rosewood or mahogany in extra fine saws. Any others? The reason I ask is, I have a saw I need to make a handle for, and it seems darned near impossible to find quarter sawn beech in the U.S. Flat sawn, yes, but not quarter sawn. One may be able to find quarter sawn American beech at small local sawmills in the eastern part of the country, but where I live there is none. If anyone knows of a source, please let me know.


----------



## donwilwol

I've got 2 beech trees about to come down (as soon as I find someone younger or better equipped than me). I'll let you know when they are in from of the mill.


----------



## summerfi

Thanks Don. If you were closer, I have a small bandsaw mill and we could saw those up just the way you want them.


----------



## terryR

Bob, that a sweet tote. Nice save on the saw, too. I hate to throw shipping charges at you, but I've found some 4/4 QS Beech on eBay in the past…still chewing on those two sticks of lumber.

Yeah, Ryan lock the shop! That's an awesome vice…been kinda looking for one myself…kinda. Not sure I can even lift it!


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Does anyone ever use QSWO for saw handles?


----------



## summerfi

Thanks Terry. There is, in fact, some QS beech on ebay right now, but the quantity is more than I need and the price plus shipping is pretty much prohibitive. Comes out to about $14 per bd. ft. for the lot.


----------



## RGtools

I found the vice at a local shop I haunt with several different dealers, lots of old industrial tools tend to end up there.

Terry as far as weight goes, it's heavy, but not surprisingly manageable, I almost suspect it's made out of aluminum, NOT cast iron. Either way, it's a rigid sucker.


----------



## terryR

Wow, $14 per BF sounds about right…for pink ivory…or brown ebony.  Yeah, shipping makes a wood purchase from fleaBay a splurge. Maybe the seller is desparate enough for cash that he might cut you a few sticks at 12" and stuff 'em in a flat rate box for you?

Red, I don't think Oak is used much for tool handles? Very porous, I thought? I've mostly seen Maple, Beech, Mahogany, and Apple for domestic species totes. Walnut is sorta porous, but I've certainly used it since I live in a walnut grove! lol

Then again, Oak may be so unique, that it makes a spectacular tote! It's staying in your A/C'd shop, right?


----------



## jamesicus

Andy wrote:
1. Ebay sellers have special cameras that take grainy, dark and out of focus photos.

Bob wrote:
1. Saws never look as good in person as they do in online auction pictures.

I particularly like those, although all input on this theme is good.









http://jp29.org/wwtools.htm


----------



## summerfi

Terry - Yeah, I actually sent the seller a message asking him to do just that. He never responded back. :-(
Maybe it won't sell and he'll drop the price.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Ya Terry. I think rift or quartersawn walnut would look great on tool handles.


----------



## donwilwol

since I live in a walnut grove! lol

that's probably as close to heaven as you can get in AL!


----------



## TobyC

Acme made most of them out of cast iron, I think the "bench top" models were aluminum, yours looks like aluminum. (that's aluminium for you Andy







)
Yours also has the "good" base on it, has a flat bottom and is angle adjustable. Good stuff!


----------



## Wally331

Sweet saw Bob, I'm really starting to like british saws (like I need to start buying more tools) the old spear and jackson saws are gorgeous. I'm thinking I might make a panel saw handle template by downsizing a full size spear and jackson saw handle picture.


----------



## Brit

*Bob* - The only handle material I've seen on old saws is quartersawn English beech. However, I have a PDF of a 1922 W. Tyzack, Sons & Turner catalogue and they offered Mahogany, Rosewood or Ebony for an additional cost on their better quality saws. The image below is a bit grainy, but hopefully you can still make it out.


----------



## DonBroussard

I picked up a bunch of rusty old tools this weekend. There was a small panel saw in the bunch with a "H. DISSTON & SONS" and "PHILADA" medallion, dating the saw to between 1896 and 1917 . There was no etch on the saw  nor was there a ppi stamp but I did note a large stamped "X" under the tote and located at the top of the plate. What does that stamped "X" mean and does it help dating the saw?


----------



## chrisstef

Looks like you've got a Disston 12 there Don. I think the 12 and one other saw shared the "X" demarcation underneath the handle. From what ive read its for extra refined (I think, its early, only one cup of coffee). That's a good score, the 12 was top of the line in its day.


----------



## chrisstef

Here's what I fouind on the X mark from another forum:

Ray, I emailed Daryl and he was kind enough to reply and give me a link to some photos of the marks:

Disstonblademarkings by darylweir | Photobucket

Daryl believes the X stamp indicates "Extra" as he has seen this mark on saws with the word EXTRA at the top of the etch. He has seen it on an "1870 No.9 and late 1870 to 1880 era Disston No.77, No.99, No.9, No.12, No.8 hand saw, No.8 panel saw."

Daryl points out that although the X was stamped in the No.8's above, their etch does not contain the word "EXTRA" but are made of SPRING STEEL.

There are saws that have "EXTRA" in their etch that Daryl has not mentioned, such as the No.16. However, I'm sure Daryl's reply to me was to indicate that it was not only the No.12 that had the X and that it was to denote "EXTRA", rather than a list of all the saws on which he has seen an X. (I am sending a link to this thread to Daryl to make sure I've got it right!)

It gets a bit confusing to me with all the descriptions of the steel and all the different models of saws. I wonder how much of the description is marketing?

Looks like there needs to be a book written encompassing the steel, model No., date of production, medallion and handle shape of these Disston saws to satisfy our need for information. I haven't searched for Disston books yet.

_


----------



## chrisstef

Finished up the sharpening of that little 15ppi Disston 68. Getting more consistency in my filing.










(The glare makes the teeth hard to see on the left)


----------



## terryR

Nice looking teeth, Stef. jeez, 15 ppi? I can't remember, do you use a magnifying lens?

Trying to interpret the misc stampings and markings on these vintage saws are half the fun of restoring them, IMO! 

I just realized a few days ago that the tote on my 1870's T.Shelton has that weird chisel line extending from the chamfer…photos as soon as I get to the PC…


----------



## chrisstef

I didn't on this one Terry but could have used it. The magnifying lamp I bought off the craiger spit out some magic smoke last time I used it. I donned a head lamp to help out in seeing the shiners, worked pretty good.

I had to stop every 10 minutes or so to keep from going cross eyed. I coulda kept going but I don't need a reason to look any goofier than I do all ready.

Hopefully Santa will bring me the lee valley magnifying lamp for xmas.


----------



## terryR

Uh-oh…in Computer Engineering school we learned about the magic smoke. Once you release it…game over. lol. Good luck with Santa!!!

Here is an 1870's (I think…will research with restore) T.Shelton & Son back saw that has been waiting in my shop for restoration for TOO long…teeth already sharpened sash style at 15ppi…just needs tote work and cleaning. That's why I bought it…perfect for me since I can't sharpen yet…










I just noticed a couple of weeks ago, that the tote has that strange mark between the chamfer and hook. Both sides…I was sure it was a crack when I first saw it. LOL.










Definitely a maker's mark, but I still cannot figure out where it points, except the apex of the curve where my big ole hand goes? I'm still planning to make an exact copy of this tote with sexy lamb's tongue because I know I suck at matching old and new woods. Looking for a piece of Pecan…


----------



## Brit

*Stef* - Them there teeth are smokin' baby!

*Terry* - I've never seen a fish tail that end the way that one does on the Shelton tote. I assume it has been modified, correct?


----------



## terryR

Andy, I think it just looks funny since the lamb's tongue has broken off. But, I'll check for recent marks before copying the tote.


----------



## chrisstef

And now i cant stop hunting backsaws. Scooped this one for 5 clams. No medallion and no stamp on the spine. Maybe theres an etch but i doubt it.










That ones a beauty Terry. Lots of plate under the spine.


----------



## terryR

Yeah, Stef, you've been infected with the disease! LOL. But, for $5, and a weekend's worth of labor, you should get a fine user!

Got this Tyzack in the post just now…seller's photo…










One of my eBay rules is to never bid on a user saw that doesn't show the teeth. I bought this one, and got lucky since there's only a hint of discoloration along the plate where the saw guard has been in place forever, but the crosscut teeth are in fantastic shape! My x-cut Gramercy needs a break! or a sharpening…

...and I have to admit, this tote feels a lot more comfy than it looks…


----------



## summerfi

This is the first British backsaw I've ever laid hands on, much less owned. It's a Robt. Sorby 14" steel back 11 ppi rip. Unfortunately the plate and spine are pitted pretty badly, especially on the front side (see Bob's 2nd universal law of saw restoration). It will still make a nice using saw. I had to repair both horns. I filed it this morning and it cuts exceedingly well.


----------



## Brit

Sounds like Stef isn't the only one who's caught the disease Bob. Nice restore.


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## jordanp

Wally331, is an amazing young fellow. He is building a new saw for me as we speak
This kid is going places with his skills.

One of Wally331's Saws


----------



## chrisstef

Its a hell of a lot of fun to take a saw that wont cut warm butter and make it rip through oak aint it Bob. Split nuts on that bad boy too?


----------



## summerfi

Stef - Yes, split nuts and a kangaroo medallion.

Jordan - Your Wally saw may be worth a mint one day.


----------



## DonBroussard

@stef-Thanks for the D-12 identification and the info on the stamped "X". I rough sanded down the tote today. Hopefully, I'll get to fine sand and apply finish before the weekend's over. I don't plan to try to fix the broken top horn. Also, I looked in my saw queue and I have another panel saw with the same medallion, but the other saw has a lamb's tongue-it's an 8 ppi. Think I'll tackle that one next. BTW, nice job on those tiny teeth-came out really nice.


----------



## 69BBNova

These came in today…

5ppi thumb hole rip, 7ppi xcut…

both 8 inside D, 4 line patent, and 1896 medallions…

Same everything to match my 9ppi xcut…

Now I can slow down and get back to bench planes…

One needs more shining up than the other.


----------



## CL810

Really nice nova


----------



## 69BBNova

Thanks CL810,

I do have a question for you guys…

After reading my previous post, I don't have a good reason to buy any more?, do I?...

Other than wanting all the saws…lol


----------



## NinjaAssassin

Those are nice nova. Did you pick those up off the bay? Look similar to a pair I saw on there not long ago. In any case, great score!


----------



## Brit

They're beauties Nova.


----------



## 69BBNova

Thanks guys, and I never bought online, I only buy where I can call…

Thanks Brit, their sharp but I still look forward to when I'm not scared of sharpening my D8s…

I can't wait till I get them all polished up and shiny.


----------



## summerfi

Nova, those are really nice saws. It's rare to find them in that nice of condition. As for your question, "I don't have a good reason to buy any more?, do I?...", why ask why? If it makes you happy and you can afford it, why NOT? Besides, those who are afflicted with the saw disease really have no choice. You know, you could look at it as an investment for the future, because they don't make saws like these any more.


----------



## donwilwol

Bill, those are SWEET!! I always have a good reason to buy more. There is always an empty spot to fill some where. It takes some rearranging sometimes, but hey!


----------



## shampeon

Sneak peek:


----------



## Tim457

Sweet. Nova, those are sweet looking too.


----------



## DonBroussard

@shamp-Way cool on the sneak preview! I just told my wife that if she ever sees a Harvey Peace medallion on a saw, to just pick it up and bring it home to poppa. Looking forward to the saw rehab.

EDIT-Very nice saws you got there, Nova! I'm still looking for my first thumbie. Someday, maybe . . .


----------



## summerfi

Ian - you lucky dog! Peace to you, bro.

So guys, I have a saw question. Please don't think this is sarcastic, because I don't mean it that way. It's simply an honest question. I see various sellers on ebay saying their saws are freshly sharpened and *tuned*. I know how to tune a car, I even know how to tune a violin. But how the heck do you "tune" a saw, unless of course they're talking about a musical saw (LOL). Do they mean they've cleaned it? Tightened the handle? Taken out the bends? Waxed it? Blessed it with holy water? What the heck are they talking about, or is it simply marketing jargon to get a better price. A saw is a relatively simple tool, and I can't think of much more you can do to it besides clean, straighten, tighten, and sharpen. Somebody inform me, please!


----------



## Brit

*Bob* - I think 'tuning' could be one of three things, depending on the seller's level of knowledge and their ability.

1. It could refer to dressing the side of the teeth to even out the saw's set to ensure it cuts in a straight line without wandering to one side.

2. It could also mean that they sharpened it and tried it and found that it needed a bit more rake/fleam and then adjusted the tooth geometry accordingly. Maybe they noticed that a couple of teeth were proud of the others and went back in and put them right.

3. It could mean (and this is probably the most likely) that they read the phrase on another seller's description and added it to their own description either consciously or subconsciously when really they haven't the faintest idea what it means to 'tune' a saw.


----------



## donwilwol

I'm going with Andy's #3.


----------



## Tim457

You'll also hear Paul Sellers and saw guys like Matt Cianci and Mark Harrel talk about tuning saws to a particular task like more fleam for softwoods, less for hard, right amount of rake, etc. That's definitely not the case here since they don't know what you're using it for.

And yeah if they had actually tuned the saw like Andy's 1 or 2 most likely they would have mentioned specifically what they did in order to improve the saw's value. Unlikely but possible they could just be a humble bad marketer. It happens.


----------



## summerfi

I would consider #1 and #2 as part of the job of a proper sharpening, so I'll go with #3 as well. "Tuning" sounds good, but as always, it's buyer beware.


----------



## Brit

Really, unless you are buying from a reputable dealer (and paying for the privilege), it is better to assume that any saw you buy will have multiple issues that you will have to correct before it will serve you well. So far, I have only bought one saw that I have not been able to put right - yet!


----------



## jordanp

I'm going to go with #3 on this one Andy.

I sold Computer and telecom equipment on Ebay for over 8 years and we were always looking for keywords and terms that would boost the performance of our items, without being deceitful.


----------



## dbray45

Brit - I am with you on that. For that saw that you cannot repair - cut it up and make cabinet scrapers.


----------



## shampeon

Here's the Harvey Peace 35 post restoration. 10 point filed crosscut, and 18" blade. I sanded the blade with a block and 400 grit wet/dry paper to preserve the etch, then used metal polish and some aluminum foil. Reglued the crack in the lamb's tongue, then sanded it. The tote was finished with BLO + DNA + shellac. The beech was a little stained on the medallion side, but I'm pretty happy with it. Saw nuts and medallion were polished up on my lathe.

























It saws pretty aggressively. Gotta have a light touch when starting the cut.

Here's a before pic:


----------



## chrisstef

Tasty cakes ^.

That medallion alone would make me feel like such a bad ass usung that saw. +2 man points.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Nice Ian. I bet that saw could tell some stories.


----------



## donwilwol

nice Peace!!


----------



## Brit

Very nice saw Shamp. That will live on for years to come now.


----------



## jordanp

Nice find Ian…
Love that Medallion
+1 Stef, You have upgraded your man card membership ranking.


----------



## pastahill

Another nice unrestored one for our sheffield specialist ( Brit). Handle is in good condition ( just owner stamps on it), split nuts, but the blade had bad kinks. I hope i get it out, they are like a frog, press here, comes out there. Maybe i file away about 5mm and see how straight it is there. I am not a specialist in warped blades. What do you think, can the blade be rescued.


----------



## Brit

*pastahill *- From what I can see, I would say it can definitely be fixed and there is no need to file anything. Actually the plate isn't bent, it has just slipped in the back. I would proceed as follows:

1) First of all you need to determine if it is just the plate that has slipped in the back or the back is actually bent. Sometimes this can be very slight and not easily visible to the naked eye. Although a bend in a back can be very slight, this error is compounded the further you get from the supported edge of the plate just below the back towards the toothline. To test if the back is bent, place 12" straight edge on the plate immediately below the back. If it is slightly bent, it will be concave on one side of the plate and convex on the other side, so you will either have a gap at both ends of the straight edge with it touching the plate in the middle somewhere or it will touch at both ends of the plate with a gap in the middle of the straight edge. If it is bent, make a note of which side is the convex side and rock the straight edge to determine where the fulcrum point is. In other words, where does the straight edge touch the plate when the gap is even at both ends. Mark the fulcrum with a small piece of masking tape.

Now you can set about fixing the bent back which should be done BEFORE you try to sort out a wave in the plate. I show how I go about fixing a bent back in this blog post.

2) Now that the back is straight, you can accurately assess the wave in the plate if it is still there. The best way to fix a wave is to remove the handle, remove the back from the plate entirely and refit it. This will re-tension the plate. You will find that once removed from the back, the plate will straighten out of it's own accord. The blog I linked to above also shows how to refit a plate (courtesy of Tools for Working Wood). As best I can see from your photos, the plate seems to have slipped in the back at the handle end. If that is the case, there will be a slight gap under the back where it fits into the handle. If you don't feel confident to remove the back and refit it, you could try standing the saw teeth down on some softwood and tapping the back starting from the middle of the back and working towards the handle end. Keep checking the wave in the plate to see the effect of what you're doing. Don't go too far or else the holes in the plate will no longer line up with the holes in the handle when you refit it.

Give it a go. I think you'll be surprised how easy it is. Within reason, you can't do anything to a saw that can't be put right again and we've all got to start somewhere. If you really mess it up, you can always send it to me and I'll put it right for you free of charge. Hell, I'll even pay the return postage. Can't say fairer than that now can I?

I'll see what I can find out about your saw.


----------



## Brit

*pastahill* - Take a look at this thread on Backsaw.net which gives a nice summary of Wheatman and Smith.

http://www.backsaw.net/index.php?option=com_jfusion&Itemid=58&jfile=showthread.php&t=232



















Your saw was made not far from the Kelham Island museum which stands as a testament to Sheffield's industrial past.


----------



## jordanp

What is that piece of machinery at the end? it looks like an over-sized cement mixer.


----------



## chrisstef

Looks like a molten steel hopper and it is cool as hell. I love stuff like that Andy, thanks for the post.


----------



## terryR

Hey, Andy, thanks for repeating those tips…for some reason they sound very intimidating…like trying to tighten the loose lateral adjuster on a plane's frog! LOL.

Within reason, you can't do anything to a saw that can't be put right again…

I feel more confident already!

And, that's a sweet saw, pastahill…


----------



## Brit

*JordanP* - It is a Bessemer Converter. One of only 3 in the world that are still standing. It's the dog's gonads.

The Bessemer Converter at Kelham Island Museum is one of only three converters left in the world. It was used by the British Steel Corporation in Workington until 1975, and was brought to the Museum in 1978 as an example of the revolutionarysteel making process which first took off in Sheffield. The Bessemer process, patented by Henry Bessemer in 1856, converted iron into steel (actualy they have put the 2 steps: converting iron into steel by recycling it in the converter and then the transformation of the pure iron into steel in just one step). The egg-shaped converter was tilted down to pour molten pig iron in through the top, then swung back to a vertical position and a blast of air was blown through the base of the converter in a dramatic 'blow'. Spectacular but dangerous flames and fountains shot out of the top of the converter. The converter was tilted again and the newly made steel was teemed or poured out. The first converters could make seven tonnes of steel in half an hour. By 1860, John Brown was using this process and other works soon followed. Within 20 years, Sheffield alone was producing 10,000 tons of Bessemer steel every week (this was almost a quarter of the country's total output). The invention marked the beginning of mass steel production, as huge amounts could be produced in a relatively short time compared to crucible steel production. The steel was most widely used for the railways that were stretching around the world.


----------



## Brit

*Terry* said "Hey, Andy, thanks for repeating those tips…for some reason they sound very intimidating…like trying to tighten the loose lateral adjuster on a plane's frog! LOL"

Tightening a loose lateral adjuster on a plane's frog IS intimidating to me Terry. Al's broken No.8 frog still haunts me. )


----------



## jordanp

Awesome.
it's amazing how one man's idea can impact an industry to such a degree


----------



## Brit

"*Who was Henry Bessemer?" *I hear you all ask. You might be forgiven for imagining him to be an ambitious tool maker seeking world domination, however nothing could be further from the truth. Would you believe he was a watchmaker seeking a way to make better springs for his watches. Now there's dedication. *THANKS HENRY!!!*


----------



## jordanp

Wow.. Hey don't we need better saw files? 
Can you jump on this one Andy and take lead?


----------



## Brit

Already underway Jordan and it is being led by someone far more capable than I. Check this out:

http://lumberjocks.com/topics/50943


----------



## summerfi

This is a W. Tyzack, Sons & Turner saw that I'd appreciate some input on before I begin a restoration. It is a 4 ppi rip saw that I believe originally had a 28" plate that someone shortened to about 26 1/2". I base this on the facts that the nib is only about 1" from the end, and the etch is not quite in the middle of the plate. What I am considering doing is filing a new nib in a more normal position, and changing the pitch to 8 ppi. One can only use so many 4 ppi rip saws, and I believe 8 ppi would be more versatile. It could also be fairly easily achieved by jointing the teeth to half their height and then dividing each current tooth into two teeth. That said, however, I don't want to do anything that would detract from the saw's value or historical integrity. I like this saw and I'll probably keep it as a user. What do you think of my ideas and what would you do if this were your saw?


----------



## planepassion

Bob, rather than putting that beautiful saw through such an invasive surgery, I would suggest choosing one of your 8 ppi crosscut saws and converting it to rip through a good filing. I did that with a 7 ppi XC panel saw I picked up and it worked well. Note that at 7 ppi filed rip, it takes a while to make my cuts and it leaves a nice finish. So I'm thinking that 8 ppi for rip cuts on boards would be overkill. I can't imagine ever needing more than that on boards.

What say you fellow LJers?


----------



## TobyC

Andy, you are the man!


----------



## Brit

Sorry Brad, I'm with Bob on this one personally.

*Bob* - This is your saw and I'm very jealous. I have a thing for W. Tyzack, Sons & Turner saws of that vintage. Glad to know it is in good hands though. Note that the elephant logo is to the left of the main etch, so go easy when you sand that area.


----------



## Brit

*NO* Toby, you're the man.










...and I've got the T-shirt to prove it dude.


----------



## TobyC




----------



## TobyC

Comes in sweatshirt too!


----------



## TobyC

I've got this on my arm.


----------



## planepassion

Toby, I have that very same tattoo! Only instead of an arrow, it's a W. Tyzack, Sons & Turner saw (6ppi rip.) And instead of my arm it's on my chest.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

"You're all as sad as each other really aren't you?"….LOL


----------



## TobyC

You're just jealous!


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Ya, Andy's heft and hubris post with the dialog from his wife is still the funniest thing I've read on LJs. Oh man…

And I am a little jealous. It does seem like Andy is walking encyclopedia…..except funnier. Encyclopedia's are dry. You guys…not so much.


----------



## chrisstef




----------



## jordanp




----------



## terryR

Bummer…got out-sniped on a sweet piece of London Spring Steel after bedtime last night…Disston tote and Medallion. Listed as "sharp".

I don't mind being outbid by $50, but ooooohhhh I hate losing by $2.50! 

But, the hunt is part of the allure of vintage…


----------



## CL810

Terry you may have been outbid by $50. You'll never know what max bid the buyer put in.


----------



## Slyy

okay, my first of a few contributions to this thread! This one is badged as an Atkins saw (according to the medallion). This was one of a few saws I inherited from my paternal grandfather. He was a lefty but I'm really wondering about the right handed placement of the medal, has anyone encountered that before?









I didn't get a good shot of the total before, but the handle was very square and plain so I spiced it up a bit, mostly by rounding all the corners. I also tried to emulate a mix of some flair and added a row of teeth and a bit of a bird's hook at the top. Truth be told this is the first time I've EVER attempted to carve on wood of any kind.

It's the disassembled saw near the top.









The steel on the blade plate seems newer (if that makes sense) than the older saws i picked up and also has no etch/stamp so I wonder if the whole thing plate, hardware and tote are all just a hodgepodge of parts? It just seems very odd to have the "wheat" carving on the normal side and clearly the cutout for the medallion is on the opposite side.



































I used some fiberglass resin to fix the crack that went through the medallion cut-out. I really like this for wood repairs, my base knowledge and experience in woodworking is repairing old firearms and i have had to go in and redo several stock repairs that were initially fixed with wood glue of various kinds that have failed through the years between then and now. I trust the resin to keep all the pieces in place for much longer. I also really like to restore these old tools, not refinish, as that patina of use and time is what males them appealing in the first place. So I'm more than happy to clean them up but maintain the character that they've earned over many many decades of use (maybe not all of it loving). Resin repairs also help in keeping the character of some of the damage while at the same time repairing the 
actually functionality of the piece.

Let me know what you guys think, I'm working on all of the others shown in the first pic. Hope to have them up fairly soon just waiting to finish the totes (wood finishes are not something to be rushed). Love this forum and glad to be along for the ride!


----------



## chrisstef

Browsing Ebay this morning I came across something a bit unusual but kind of intriguing. A shop made rabbeting saw? It appears that the saw blade is adjustable. I think its pretty cool.


----------



## jordanp

Modified Stair Saw?


----------



## LoriF

I saw this on ebay and out of curiosity I googled Harvey Peace which lead me to Hyperkitten…....

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HARVEY-PEACE-P70-HAND-SAW-TOP-LINE-HANDLE-CARVED-BOTH-SIDES-BUELL-PATENT-/281225050174

$20.50 5 bids 1 1/2 days remaining. This is not my saw nor do I know the person selling it.


----------



## summerfi

Slyy - I think it's admirable that you want to fix up and use saws handed down to you by your grandfather. So many people have no appreciation for old tools and simply dispose of tools inherited from their kin for the few bucks they will bring. I've seen a couple other saws that appeared to have factory handles with the medallion on the right side. I presume these were made for left handers. Your saw appears to have an owner-made handle, perhaps made by your grandfather, and since he was a lefty he put the medallion on that side.


----------



## Slyy

Yeah Bob, was thinking along those lines that he just made it that way himself.
Too bad I can't ask him! Another one of his I'm fixing up is an Atkins badge, old blade with nib but a clearly homemade replacement handle. That one actually has a date of 1922 etched on the handle (3 years before my grandfather was born) so I wish I knew the story behind that. My plan is to clean that one up and just keep using it that way no need to mess with the history(pics on that one coming up soon)!


----------



## Tim457

Does it adjust both ways, or is it a set distance in from the edge of the board Stef? Tom Fidgen talks about an adjustable saw he calls a kerfing plane to cut a straight even kerf before hand resawing a board. Still could use it that way if it was fixed to get a certain thickness board. He also talks about using it for rabbets like you thought.

http://www.theunpluggedwoodshop.com/everything-old-is-new-again.html
http://www.theunpluggedwoodshop.com/6-ways-to-cut-a-rabbet.html


----------



## terryR

Cool saw, Stef! That may be worth building in the shop.

Do you guys have a preference in where you buy modern day brass split nuts? Bad Axe? I'm too scared to loosen my old Moses Eadon's hardware without potential replacements on the bench.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

I've heard good things about Blackburns Terry:

http://www.blackburntools.com/new-tools/new-saws-and-related/saw-bolts/index.html


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## chrisstef

Tim - im not sure but ill see if i can pull it up on ebay. I was just browsing around and stumbled on it. It does look easily doable in the shop. I think a talk about tooth geometry for a saw of such purpose would be intetesting. I could see it comin in really handy if it could stay accurate.

One rip, one crosscut, filed into an old dovetail saw plate. Whats up. Off to find the posting.


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## chrisstef

http://bit.ly/199D3Cl - link to tge ebay page i posted on that saw.


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## terryR

Thanks, Red, Will price his…I think Mark Harrell gets $15 each for his. Hey Wally! LOL.

Hey, Stef, maybe even…egads….disposable miter saw blades? Easy to convert the tool to cross or rip! Sure wish I had a metal cutting bandsaw…could rip up a problem Disston plate into 4 lomg skinny blades for Stef to sharpen! 

Some saw geek already bought the cool saw…


----------



## jordanp

Here is what came in the mail today.. No restoration or sharpening needed on this one.
She's a thing of beauty for sure..









11 TPI Rip Cut Tenon Back Saw


----------



## BigRedKnothead

^Friggin sweet. Can't wait for my order.


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## jordanp

Red there really isn't any words for it.. it cuts through maple and oak like butter


----------



## CL810

That handle is incredible!


----------



## summerfi

Beautiful saw Jordan. Is that a Wally?

I'm wondering what you guys think of my latest saw.



















Actually, I've had this saw for a long time. It was hidden away in the bottom of my grandfather's tool chest, and I had forgotten about it. I was cleaning out the chest recently and re-discovered it. It has been nearly 40 years since I inherited my grandfather's chest and tools, and I can't recall now whether this came with it or if I acquired it somewhere else years ago. I've really paid it no attention until now.

The etch is kind of cool. Inside the emblem it says Riverside Tool Co. New York, Extra Quality, and there is an image of an anvil. Outside the emblem says Trade Mark, Patent Ground, Patent Temper, Cast Steel Warranted. I've looked up Riverside Tool Co. and can't find much. I think they must have been a tool seller rather than a tool maker. A search of ebay turned up about half a dozen tools of various sorts.

I'm not sure what I'll do with this, but I suspect that now it's been re-discovered, I'll be compelled to build a frame for it.

I had another decent find today at my local used building supplies store. I picked up for $1 a 24" panel saw that was all rusted and the handle broken and partly missing. I couldn't see a name on it, but I suspected from the nib and the handle design that it could be old. I could also see that at one time it had a recessed medallion. Upon getting it home and doing some sanding, it is a Disston & Sons, probably a No. 7, but I can't read the number. I researched Disstonian Institute and, based on the serif font of the etch, recessed medallion, and lamb's tongue handle, I believe it is an 1870's saw. It will be a major chore rebuilding the handle, and may be easier just to make a new one.


----------



## jordanp

Yes that saw is from Wally331

How long is that frame/pit saw blade you found?
that could be a really fun build. It looks to be in excellent shape.


----------



## terryR

Bob, that's a very intriguing saw plate! Looks like a fun project. Want to build a frame saw myself…one o these days…

Gorgeous saw, Jordan, congrats! What's the wood for the tote? I think I'm third in line for a WallySaw!!! Can't wait…


----------



## summerfi

Jordan - the blade is 30" long.

Terry - I've been wanting to build a frame saw too, so I guess this is the perfect opportunity. The projects just keep piling up.


----------



## jordanp

Terry the tote is Padouk with a coat of wipe on poly.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Ya, I think Wally's orders are piling up. He needs to come up with an etch….so we know we have a type 1;-)


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## Wally331

Thanks for the comments everyone, I've been making a lot of advances in manufacturing them, new way to solder my split nuts, new way to clean the plates of bluing, and I also got the grammercy tote makers rasp and their split nut driver too. I'm still trying to either cast medallions, or find a safe and cheap way to etch the plates. So look forward to some sort of website hopefully come sometime in the new year.

Sweet frame saw blade Bob, I've always wanted to use one of those big frame saws that some of the galoots use for resawing. I'd really like to build a small bowsaw though, have any of you used bandsaw blades for them? Also are they considered too unwieldy for cutting out dovetail waste? My damn coping saw flexes so much, and I'm not ready to shell out 75$ for a knew concepts.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

I noticed the plate Jordan's saw plate wasn't as blue. Good move. Don't worry if you can get mine marked yet. You can always mark them when I pay you to sharpen them down the road;-)


----------



## shampeon

If you've got a laser printer and some electronics knowledge, you can try galvanic etching. It's dirt cheap.
http://steampunkworkshop.com/electroetch.shtml


----------



## Slyy

Bob, that certainly seems like it'd make a great frame saw. I mean, heck, what's another project?

Jordan, that's a purty saw! The tote is quite striking!!


----------



## Slyy

Here's another of my grandfather's saws I cleaned up. The tote is certainly NOT original, it appears to be two pieces laminated together and not quite as fancy as what I imagine the original looked like. The interesting thing is it has a date of 1922 scratched on it and my grandfather was born in 1925. Wish I could ask what the story was there.

The saw plate looks like it was probably quite old based on its design and the nib.


















Couldn't find an etch but does have this on the plate near the toe, maybe an etch or maybe just some interesting damage?










Haven't had the chance to really use this one, so not sure if I like the "original" handle. I certainly foresee a future where I make a more traditional replacement!


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## DonBroussard

I touched up and set the teeth on this saw I picked up in a group of vintage tools a few weeks ago. There was no medallion on the two-nut tote, nor was there an etch on the plate. The tote is temporarily mounted with a nut and bolt until I get a set of matching nuts (I giggled like a young school boy as I typed that, but hey, I'm only 57). The plate was drilled to match the tote, so I suspect that the original saw was a two-hole saw. The plate is a skew-back and is filed 8 pip cross cut, and is about 16" long. Any ideas on what it might be or have been? At first I thought it was a saw from a toy set, but the saw was pretty sharp and had a straight joint line.










While I can't say that the saw cuts like a hot knife through butter, it did make a satisfying cross cut through ash.

Thanks in advance for any help with its identification.


----------



## dbray45

Slyy - If it works well as it is, I would leave like it is. You have a unique saw that looks great.


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## TobyC

Matching nuts.

$5.89 for 10 of them!


----------



## DonBroussard

@Toby-Thanks for the referral. Any ideas on the saw's ID?


----------



## Slyy

David - yeah I certainly like the unknown story behind it makes it more interesting! As soon as I finish Andy's wonderful videos and blog on saw filing I think I will make this into a nice rip saw.


----------



## TobyC

Don,

I don't know, looks a lot like "The Imp", which was bottom of the line Disston, that's my best guess. It was available in 16", and the smaller sizes would have only had 2 screws.

Look here page 140 on the bottom.


----------



## DonBroussard

@Toby-I checked out "The Imp" and it does look similar. I think The Imp is a straight-backed saw. I also saw that on Page 163, they identify which and how many nuts go with which saws. There were no two-nut saws listed. It could be that my saw was made after 1918, or it could be a manufacturer other than Disston.

I did find two matching nuts in my spare parts. Here's the reassembled saw:










Just hand-sanded the tote and applied a couple of coats of undiluted BLO.


----------



## Slyy

Looking good Don!!


----------



## jordanp

What is the thinnest veneer/edging rip you have ever done with a hand saw?


----------



## theoldfart

'bout 1/32" Diston dovetail, not sure what model. Sharpened by Matt Cianci. His blog


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## jordanp

That's pretty dang thin..

I've been having really great results with the Saw i got from Wally331 the saw is so good that my skill is the only thing holding it back.

So lots and lots of practice going on in my shop at the moment


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## theoldfart

That saw is a work of sawyers art. Keep practicing, it'll happen.


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## summerfi

Well I've finished with the W. Tyzack, Sons & Turner saw I sought opinions on a few days ago. Hearing only one neigh and one yeah on my proposed plan, I continued with the plan as proposed. In addition to cleaning up the saw, I filed a new nib in the traditional location. The old nib was only 1" from the end of the plate due to past shortening. The saw may have been a 30" ripsaw in the past, because the etch would have been perfectly centered in that case. Now the plate is 26 1/4". I also converted the saw from a 4 ppi rip to an 8 ppi rip. I may file it as a crosscut at some time in the future, but for now it remains a rip. The process of going from 4 ppi to 8 ppi without completely jointing off the teeth was interesting, but worked out quite well.

Aside from more pitting than I had hoped (more so on the presentation side, of course), I think the saw turned out quite well. Here are some pics.























































*Andy* - Notice in the pic above that there is no number at the bottom of the etch, like the saw in the catalog drawing that you posted. Any idea why that would be the case?

The poor little elephant secondary etch has been nearly done in by pitting. The wording to the left and right of the elephant says Trade Mark, and beneath it says Nonpareil.










I tested the saw on a piece of pine, making four progressively closer rip cuts. Oooooh this saw cuts nice, and it feels great in the hand. It's going to be one of my favorites for sure.


----------



## planepassion

Summerfi, I have to rethink my nay vote after reading this post by the Renaissance Woodworker. I was not aware of a rule of thumb that says that you want 6-7 teeth of your saw in the cut at any one time. And of course, the thickness of your target board would help determine which tooth pitch to use. So in your case, if you are ripping thinner boards, the 8 ppi would be just fine.

BTW, that Tyzack is one beautiful piece of saw steel and wood.

What do you other sawyers have to say about the 6-7 tooth in cut rule of thumb?


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## theoldfart

Brad, not sure how that would work in thick stock. Also I have better luck with straight cuts with as much saw in the cut as possible, probably a newbie thing!


----------



## summerfi

Brad - That makes a lot of sense. I think the reason there are so many old course tooth rip saws around is that people back then did a lot of ripping of heavy stock. Timber frame construction, bridge building, etc. required course teeth to comply with the 6-7 tooth rule. I'm sure they didn't know specifically about that rule, but learned from experience what kind of saw it took to do the job. Heck, even in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, when saw making was at it's pinnacle, many homes were framed with full 2" thick oak lumber. It's not surprising there are so many old 4 to 6 ppi rip saws still around. Of course, the same job is done today with power saws.


----------



## donwilwol

the same job is done today with power saws.

Yea, but not to many houses are framed with 2" thick oak 
Even some of the modern power saws couldn't take that!


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## planepassion

Summerfi, I didn't know those details. That would suggest that the pool of available rip saws may not be appropriate for hobbyist woodworkers like myself that regularly work stock that is 3/4" or less thick. Although, I do resaw 1" thick pieces from time to time. The cut in those instances is along the edge so it wouldn't be hard to keep 6-7 teeth of a 5 ppi rip saw in the kerf.

This whole 6-7 teeth thing is an interesting revelation and I look forward to trying it out in my own shop. It will help me more finely differentiate the uses of the saws I have on hand.


----------



## theoldfart

Correction, my post #5171 should read 3/32". At 1/32 I should have my own woodworking blog!


----------



## CL810

We knew that. ;-)


----------



## Slyy

Summerfi - Great job on that good 'ol NonPariel! What an excellent looking saw!

Okay so went really rust hunting for the first time this weekend. In Oklahoma I'm not really sure how many good saws have made there way here so it's difficult for me to judge how well I scored. Picked up my FIRST Disston at an antique mall for $8. Couldn't read the etch but the handle looked pretty fancy! Found out she's a nice D-100 That appears to be 8 TPI crosscut. Jumps a bit testing it out so I'm sure it needs sharpening.

Some befores:

































Some sanding, naval jelly, OOOO steal wool, BLO, Brasso and Danish Oil later some afters:

































Lots of pics, sorry, just a proud poppa! Hope you all enjoy this one!


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## jordanp

Nice restoration


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## CL810

Slyy, you are a lucky man.


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## BigRedKnothead

Nice job Slyy. I wen't to college in Okie. Didn't know nothin bout no rust huntin back then though.


----------



## Slyy

Jordan, Clayton - Thanks! Picked some other rusty objects that might go in some other threads later!

Red - Ya don't say huh? Cowboy or Sooner (or something else entirely)?


----------



## chrisstef

Nice work Slyy. A d100 on your first rust hunt … Thats good clean livin right there.  Great rehab.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Jake- I was an eagle or somethin'. Oklahoma Wesleyan in Bartlesville. They lured me down there for some Bible Belt Basketball. I have some fond memories stompin around those Osage Hills though. Thought about stayin, but I couldn't stand the summers down there. 
Wouldn't surprise me if the rust huntin is good. The cost of living there was much cheaper than I was used to.


----------



## terryR

Slyy, very nice restore on that D100…jeez…8 bucks! 

Here's another cool saw in this month's PWW…










The author shows it being used in a jig for cutting perfect tenon shoulders, but looks useful for any task where ya need a thin, accurate kerf in a piece of stock.


----------



## Slyy

Red - yeah our summers are brutal, heck the weather is all together! Last summer was record number of 100+ degree days. Yesterday it was 64, today it's 24 and there's 1/4" or more of ice on everything off the ground!

















Edit added another picture


----------



## Tim457

Nice to look at ice like that as long as it doesn't take out your power and you don't have anywhere to go.

Some nice restores guys. That D-100 turned out great, and Bob the handle on that Tyzack is fantastic.


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## planepassion

Slyy, very nice score with the D-100. It looks to be in great shape. I've found that when the saw jumps around in the kerf that there's too much set for the teeth. A good sharpening (skipping the set step) has solved that problem for me.

Some background on the D-100 from the Disstonian Institute's Website. "The D-100 was a D-8 with a chip-carved handle. It was manufactured from 1903 until sometime shortly before 1922."

By the way, does the sawplate have a pleasing twang when you thump it? My No. 12 exhibits this auditory feature whereas my other regular D-8's don't.


----------



## donwilwol

Picked this D8 up today, along with a clam shell jointer and a pre-lat Stanley #35


----------



## theoldfart

Don, looks like an early etch, no Spanish or French warranted language. Nice looking thumbhole. Is that a crack on the upper horn or a gouge? Should clean up quite nicely.


----------



## GregInMaryland

Hey all,

I need to punch a few holes in some replacement saw plates (0.032 inches thick) I got from Dom at www.tgiag.com wondering if this tool would work for this purpose:

Neiko Power Punch

Thanks.

Greg


----------



## Slyy

Don, your finds are ridiculous, to say I'm jealous is an understatement! Would love to have half luck you do rust hunting! I just recently got started so maybe I will, here's hoping!!!


----------



## DaddyZ

Slyy ^ Close to a half inch Ice here in central OK


----------



## bandit571

I don't know, BUT I did stumble upon a D-8 with etch thumbhole for $1….

@ The Lutheran Center's Thrift Shop…

YMMV


----------



## Wally331

Greg, I'm going to say that most likely that tool won't do the job. It says it only cuts up to 16 ga. mild steel, spring steel is way way harder, and .038 is about 20 gauge. I just got done with making a panel saw, I was able to drill through the .038 plate with normal twits bits, but after 3 holes it is already quite dull. It has been recommended to use carbide bits to drill through the plates.


----------



## planepassion

Excellent pickup Don. You have the luck of the Irish with the thumbies for sure. Clean it up, sharpen it and put it to work.


----------



## Slyy

Pat - same area here, still looking pretty dang icy! Amazing my last Bradford pear made it through unscathed!

Just picked up a handless rusty (currently no name) two man crosscut from a friend who just found it on his acreage! Oughta be another fun little project!


----------



## terryR

So, I'm filing brass yesterday…not making much progress with the Borg file…and stop to think. "Self, this steel file isn't removing brass very well. What can we do?"

I decided to try another file, duh. But, which one? A file is a file, right? LOL.

So, got out my file hardness testing kit, and scratched a few of my files for information. Please don't quote this data as science…just a starting point. More files and more scratching sessions will eventually produce a chart. But for now…










...here's what I found out.

From left to right in the photo:

1-a Nicholson 4-way rasp (made in USA) tested less than HRC40! No wonder this tool is so useless for removing any material.
2-a Nicholson 10" Flat Bastard (made in Mexico), HRC52.
3-a Grobet USA saw sharpening file (made in India), HRC58.
4-an FL Grobet file from Lee Valley (made in Switzerland), HRC63.
5-a Simonds or Bahco file ordered online (made in India), HRC63.
And, lastly, I even scratched the plate on this Disston No.4 Backsaw, HRC55.

I even (gasp!) scratched the plate on my LN 14" rip saw and received a similar reading as the Disston…but I didn't scratch anywhere near the teeth, so may have to repeat those numbers.

Now, I can see why the Nicholson's are so slow in working brass (which I forgot to measure), pipe stone, or anything I can remember. And, why the Grobet USA files are considered garbage…too soft. The files carried by Lee Valley are hard, and the last brand…which I have to double check the name of…is also hard.

(I bought the last file in a package deal with an LJ buddy, but didn't write down the brand name…stupid) Anyhow, that's the one I used to shape brass…hopefully the pointy edges will still be good for some practice saw sharpening? 

carry on…


----------



## terryR

And, finally, the elusive Disston No.12 has found it's way to my shop










I didn't restore this one, but paid dearly for the gentleman who did! He even packed it as you see in the above photo with a tooth guard and a ton of custom cut styrofoam to protect the tote. The tooth guard was also labeled with the exact tooth geometry used in the most recent sharpening…nice. Even a bit of an etch…










Filed 9ppi cross and cuts like a dream! Welcome home, gorgeous!


----------



## chrisstef

Shes gorgeous Terry. Im gonna chuck my 12 back up in the saw vice to finally finish mine because of your saw. A much needed inspiration. Whats the geometry of them teeth bud? I needs to know!


----------



## terryR

Thanks, Stef! I sure hope I can sharpen this one when dull!

This one is 9ppi, 15* rake, 25* fleam, sloped gullets…

Gonna get me off the bandsaw habit.


----------



## Slyy

Terry, purty saw there friend!!! Glad to hear of your experience with the files and rasp as well! Haven't made it as far as the sharpening endeavor myself yet (though will) so I'm glad for your experience there! Got to keep that in mind that a little more expense on a good file equates to a much more satisfying and less frustrating experience!


----------



## JustJoe

Unless all those files were brand new out of the box, it's a flawed experiment at best. From lurking in a few machinist forums over the years I've read over and over again that cutting tools used on steel shouldn't be used on brass. It applies to end mills, taps, and files and whatever else you want to hack away at your brass with. Brass might be softer, but it needs a much sharper tool to cut cleanly. I don't understand the physics behind it, but google a bit with the right terms and you might find an explanation.

don't use file on brass after steel (googled) got me this thread:
http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/f26/tapping-brass-4458/

and this thread where someone thought it was the other way around (can't cut steel after filing brass) but a few people stepped in and corrected him:
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/archive/index.php/t-22189.html

I've got cheap files from HD that cut brass fine, but that's because I only use them on brass.


----------



## shampeon

Whether or not the files were pristine or how they were used before, the hardness shouldn't be affected.

The poor hardness rating of the Mexico-made Nicholson bastard file may not be the entire story, but it is revealing. Heat treating steel isn't rocket science, and I, for one, can't understand why every major file manufacturer is failing at this core task for their products.


----------



## terryR

Thanks, Joe. I had no idea about mixing up steel and brass tooling! copper, too?

All the saw sharpening files were new out of the box, but the others were old.

Edit…maybe I should add…I didn't actually scratch test the teeth of these files, just the flat areas near the teeth.


----------



## JustJoe

Having been used before won't affect how hard they are, true.
But this experiment was performed because the files weren't cutting brass. 
As I pointed out, his files' inability to cut brass may have nothing to do with how hard they are, if they've been used on steel before he tried them on brass then they might just not be sharp enough.

Edit: Terry, I don't know about copper, it doesn't show up in the metal forum discussions very much and I've never had to file it myself.


----------



## terryR

Joe, excellent point, hardness and sharpness are two different traits.

An ol' timer once told me that you could sharpen a file with a razor blade. I've used that method to clean several that were rusty…maybe it really can sharpen a file?

Either way, Joe just gave an excuse to buy more files! And label them 'steel' and 'brass' maybe 'copper' since I sharpen copper nails constantly while knapping…


----------



## shampeon

The length of time a file will stay sharp will definitely be affected by the hardness, though.

Maybe buy cans of metallic paint, and paint the ends?


----------



## chrisstef

Terry - the red tanged one is a Simonds.


----------



## Brit

Interesting test Terry. One of the biggest problems with files made these days is the lack of consistency. You could buy the same file from the same maker on seperate occasions and get different results when testing for hardness. Reading your test reminded me of this passage of the following article from the 1840s. I would particularly draw your attention to the last paragraph. If only file manufacturers took the same pride in their work today.

MAKING FILES in SHEFFIELD, EARLY 1840s

Excerpts from "A Day at the Fitzalan Steel and File-Works, 
Sheffield," The Penny Magazine Supplement, Volume XIII, March 
1844, pages 121-128.

"...We must now transfer our attention to that portion of the works which is appropriated to the File-manufacture.

"These tools, simple and unimportant as they may seem… to those who never enter an artisan's workshop, are among the most note-worthy articles made of steel. They are the working-tools by which every other kind of working-tool is in some degree fashioned. Whether a man is making a watch or a steam-engine, a knife or a plough, a pin or a coach, he would be brought to a stand if he had not files at his command. It may be a file with a hundred serrations to an inch, or with six or eight; it may have straight cuts like most files, or angular holes like a rasp; it may be two inches long, or a yard long; it may be round, or half-round, or triangular, or square, or flat; blunt or pointed, straight or curved; but a file of some sort or other will be found in almost every workshop.

"The first place to which we have to follow the file-makers is the forge… There is on one side a forge-fire, with a hearth on which to place the fuel, and bellows placed behind, much in the same way as a common smith's forge, but with more attention to neatness and order. The workman's bench… is a large block of hard stone, weighing about three tons… On this are fixed one or more anvils… There are also hammers of various sizes and peculiar shapes, and other small implements necessary to the operation…

"Except for the smallest files, there are two men employed at each forge-a striker and a forger, one of whom manages the fire, heats the steel, and acts as a general assistant; while the other is the superior workman, who hammers the file into shape, and is responsible for its quality. There are various notches, ridges, curvatures, and gauges, on and about his small steel anvils, which enable him to work the piece of steel into the proper form for a file, including the narrow handle, or 'tang.' The rate of working is such, that at the whole of the sixteen 'hearths,' about fifty thousand dozens of files are made in a year. Each man accustoms himself to the making of one particular size of file… From the thickness and softness of the heated metal, there is very little rebound to the hammer, and this renders the work of the striker rather laborious, especially for large files, where a hammer of nearly twenty pounds weight is used.

"The files are then annealed or 'lighted,' in order to bring the steel to a state of softness fitted for the cutting of 
teeth… Next succeeds the process of grinding, where the… 'blanks' are ground down to a true and regular surface, whether that be flat or curved…

"Then ensues the very important and curious operation of cutting the files, one which has hitherto defied the powers of machinery… In one of the buildings of the works is a long room in which file-cutters are ranged around the sides in front of the windows… each one having a small bench before him with a simple apparatus for fastening down the file while being cut…

"The file being slightly strapped down, the cutter takes a sharp tool or chisel in the left hand and a hammer in the right. This tool is a very hard, sharp, and tough piece of steel, having an edged fitted to produce the required kind of tooth, and a head to receive the blow of the hammer.

"The hammers employed (the heaviest of which weigh about nine pounds each) have the handles placed… at such an angle that the cutter can, while making the blow, pull the hammer in some degree towards him, and thus give a peculiarity to the shape of the tooth. If the file is a flat one… the cutter places the small steel tool on it at a particular angle, and with one hammer blow cuts an indentation. He then, by a minute and almost imperceptible movement, changes the place of the tool, and makes another cut parallel to, and a short distance from, the first; 
then a third, a fourth, and so on to the end of the file, shifting the file slightly in its fastening as he proceeds. 
Generally the file is cut doubly, one set of cuts crossing the other at an angle… In this case he reverses the position in which he holds the cutting tool, and proceeds as before. If the file be round or half-round, or have a curved surface of any kind, he still uses a straight-edged cutting tool; but as this can only make a short indentation, he has to go round the file by degrees, making several rows or ranges of cuts contiguous one to 
another.

"Such is the art of file-cutting; and it contains many points worthy of remark. First, the angle at which the cuts are made depends greatly on the purpose to which the file is to be applied… Next, the cut is not a mere indentation… it is a triangular groove of particular shape… The strict parallelism of the several cuts can only be brought about by practised accuracy of hand and eye, since there is no guide, gauge, or other contrivance for regulating the distance… As an instance of what skill and long practice can effect in this respect, we have before us a file about ten inches long… The flat side is cut with a hundred and twenty teeth to the inch, so that there are about twelve hundred teeth on that side; the round side has such an extent of curvature, that it required eighteen rows of 
cuts to compass it; each little cut on this side is not much above a twentieth of an inch in length; and the number is thus so great, that for the whole file there are twenty-two thousand cuts, each made with a separate blow of the hammer, and the cutting tool being shifted after each blow! ...the whole of the files made at Sheffield (the headquarters of the trade) are cut by hand…

"When the files are cut, they are brought into the warehouse to be stamped with the corporate mark of the firm. They are next hardened… the proper working of the file depends a good deal on the manner in which it is done… and while yet warm is straightened by a small apparatus at hand…

*"The files are then scrubbed clean by women with sand and water; and lastly pass into the hands of the foreman, who tests every file singly in a way which brings both the hearing and the touch into exercise… A firm which has once acquired a reputation for good files is extremely solicitous not to damage it by the sale of even one that is defective."*


----------



## chrisstef

That last line could and should be adopted by many of the modern day tool companies but has since been replaced with:

"The files are then scrubbed clean by the cheapest person we could find off the street with the least amount of sand and water we can use, that ish is expensive; and lastly it passes into a foam crate because we don't really care about quality, just flooding the market with inferior goods at a bargain price. A firm, when producing 35% of the market share of files, cares not if it is defective, as long as the firm maintains a minimum of 30% market share"


----------



## JustJoe

Which firm with the defective product are you talking about, for those of us who don't follow market share #s?

I still haven't seen any numbers telling me anybody is putting out crap for files.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

I'm guessing the ones that outsourced their manufacturing to Mexico and India.

Joel knows his stuff:
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/dept/TRR/item/EE-555-SF.XX


----------



## Brit

*Joe* - With respect to saw files, there was an interesting study carried out by an Australian woodworker on the quality of saw files earlier this year. There is a very interesting and monumental thread on Woodworkforums.com, but the link below will take you to the post in the thread where Brett attached a PDF of the results of his study. The PDF is the best study I have seen on the state of saw files today. Interesting reading:

http://www.woodworkforums.com/f152/saw-sharpening-files-101-a-171926/index47.html#post1683198


----------



## JustJoe

Just my opinion here, but that link is to a store.
He sells Swiss files by Grobet. He implies that the others are inferior, but no statistics other than "we routinely test other brands in our workshop". He hedges his bet by saying that even Grobet has declined, but that's because they outsourced to India - but have no fear he only sells the Swiss ones. 
And then he hedges his bet again = current production models aren't lasting as long *but we still use them daily*.

Of all the links on that page, the only one closely related is not for files, it is for rasps. The quality of Nicholson rasps may have dropped. But we're talking about files, and sharpening saws and a rasp doesn't enter into the equation.


----------



## chrisstef

Joe that post was mostly a tongue in cheek stab at most manufacturing being done across the globe. Same for tge market share numbers, theyre pulled from thin air. Im happy with the simonds files i use. I disliked the nicholsons. The one grobet i used, i liked.

Happy holidays gang!

I expect carnival pics Andy.


----------



## JustJoe

Yes I'm tilting at windmills here.
Brit, I read that "report." I just revisited the page, and it won't let me download the pdf without logging in, something I have no desire to do. It looked to me like Philosophical BS posing as science. There were a lot of complaints about the looks and the edges, and complaints that the files seemed to wear too fast. My take on that is 1) files are disposable, always have been. 2) Those tests were conducted by hand, on various saws of various hardness. There was no consistency in any of the variables, so the results are pretty much worthless.

Rc of a normal vintage handsaw is in the 40-52 range. Any of the files will sharpen these saws. If the files are dying so quickly then - in my opinion - it's because the users don't know how to use a file properly.


----------



## Brit

No I have to disagree with you there Joe. Whilst they are not scientific, they are definitely not worthless. The tests were conducted by people who are experienced saw filers. They have all used a lot of the files produced by the modern makers as well as new old stock files produced many years ago. Add to that the fact that other experienced saw filers agree with their findings and I don't see how you can dispute it.


----------



## JustJoe

I know a lot of people disagree with me, I have no problem with that. There will always be people who don't like the files or blame them for the results, and there will always be people who just use the files and are happy with the results. It's no big deal to me either way. I don't want to turn this thread into an argument. We could sit here for weeks going back and forth about each piece of the study I find flawed, and why you think its not. I'd rather not.


----------



## terryR

Andy, thanks for posting the link to WoodworkForums.

Considering the experience of those involved with that file test, the results show a trend to me! Inferior made files wear out quickly or have edges that crumble after less work. And, inconsistency is just part of the game.

I mean, if there wasn't a problem, why did so many saw geeks sign that petition?


----------



## robertb574

You don't have to go to WoodworkForums. You can get the pdf file and info about the saw sharpening files here on LumberJocks at http://lumberjocks.com/topics/50943


----------



## CL810

The link to the report is in post # 85.


----------



## Brit

*Joe* - I'm not going to get into an argument about it either. I respect your opinion and I know you respect that mine might differ from yours. Have a great Christmas my friend and thanks for all you contribute to this thread. I always enjoy reading your comments.


----------



## TobyC

Andy said….

"I don't want to talk to you no more, you empty headed animal food trough wiper. I fart in your general direction. Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries."


----------



## Brit

You been on the eggnog Toby?


----------



## shampeon

The anecdotal evidence has been overwhelmingly that all the major file manufacturers have been producing inferior files lately. This is coming from experts (Paul Sellers, etc.) and Random Forum Posters. It roughly coincides with the manufacturers moving production to developing countries.

Nobody is going to fund a comprehensive double-blind study to get published in a peer-reviewed journal. Enthusiasts and retailers are the only ones doing any testing. We could speculate that everyone complaining is an idiot and the files are fine, or we can speculate cost-cutting is affecting quality. I know which one seems more likely to me, and I'm a pessimist when it comes to confirmation bias.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Lol…..I really wish Andy would have said that.


----------



## terryR

Just as a follow up to last night's discussion…

Thank you, Joe, for teaching me to keep my steel and brass workimg tools separate…










I found a new Nicholson (USA) file in my drawer, just a single cut smooth, but it eats brass like nothing I've used before! You just saved me hours off this project…and down the road, too. THANKS for sharing that tip…


----------



## TobyC

Now if you only had a file handle….


----------



## terryR

Dang, Toby, I spent a whole minute making that one…
LOL.


----------



## CL810

Speaking of handles. One of the best gadgets I've ever purchased. See them on ebay now and again.


----------



## TobyC




----------



## TobyC

*Andy said…

"You been on the eggnog Toby?"*

Alcohol free for 21 years! I'm just high on life my friend.

Your previous "quote" was from Monty Python.


----------



## TobyC

terryR,

I take oyster knives, like the one below, and pull the blade out and glue a dowel into the hole and cut it off flush for file handles. I love 'em!!


----------



## TobyC

Merry Christmas fellas.


----------



## terryR

This one's for you, Toby…










mulberry so I remember this file is for brass…I may drill it out a bit larger…

Happy, Happy Everyone!


----------



## TobyC

That's gorgeous, did you just make that?!!


----------



## terryR

Thanks, Toby, yep I re sawed an ugly shop log in 3 pieces, chose a piece of straight grain, and threw it on the lathe. Takes no time at all…I can see making a handful of these to fit my saw files! AND, as potential LJ gifts.


----------



## Slyy

Great job Terry: problem, solution, done!


----------



## planepassion

CL810, I agree those handles make my filing life much easier. I find them at estate sales and flea markets. For those who want the low-down on why the handles are so great, you can read my review here.


----------



## summerfi

As long as we're showing off our file handles, here's my hodgepodge, ranging from the primitive to the hand turned to the store-bought. Yes, I agree, I need to make myself a matching set of file handles using this pattern. Maybe that will be my New Years resolution.


----------



## summerfi

Here is the Disston 24" panel saw I picked up for $1 last week. I'm posting it with some reluctance because I think the handle is kind of ugly. When I got the saw, the blade was so rusty I couldn't see an etch. Upon sanding, it revealed itself as an H. Disston & Sons, though the etch is very weak and I cannot see the number. I believe it is a No. 7 though. It was the handle, however, that was the challenge in this restoration. Unfortunately I didn't take a "before" picture, but maybe you'll get the idea from my description. The handle was in 3 pieces when I got the saw, and one of the pieces was missing. I thought about just making a new handle, but then I thought, what the heck, I'll approach this as an experiment rather than a restoration. If it doesn't work out, I can always make a new handle later. First, the handle was broken in two at the medallion hole. I glued this back together. Second, the entire clip was missing from just behind the lamb's tongue to the groove in the fish tail. I made a new clip. Third, the upper horn was broken, so I repaired that. Fourth, all the edges of the handle were badly eroded from wear, and there were numerous gouges, and someone's initials were deeply carved in both sides. In addition, the grip was pretty badly checked from being left out in the weather. This is where the experiment part comes in. The only thing I could think to do was build up and fill in with epoxy, so that's what I did. It may not look like it, but there is a LOT of 2-part adhesive epoxy on this handle. Overall, I thought the epoxy did a pretty good job of making this handle serviceable again. The problem was, when I went to apply a finish, the handle looked blotchy wherever the epoxy was. I attempted to hide this as much as possible with a dark stain, but you can still see some blotches and that's why I think the handle is ugly.

So what did I learn in my little experiment? Well, basically that just about any saw handle is repairable with enough effort and patience. Is it worth it? Probably not, unless it's a historically significant saw. I would have spent about the same amount of effort to make a new handle. It would have looked better, but of course it wouldn't have been original. Either way, the saw would make a serviceable user, which is probably all this saw will ever be.

I need to find a medallion for the saw. It is a recessed medallion, and based on the serif font in the etch, style of handle, and type of medallion, this saw appears to have originally been from the 1870's. Perhaps if I find a medallion, I'll make a new handle at that time.


----------



## Slyy

Bob - first of all: I bet it can be hard to find similar sized files with that handle scheme, though if they are all different certainly it sets them all apart!

Secondly: DANG! I can only imagine how much work that was. All told though, I think the results are still pretty dark hard to complain about!!! If anything taking on that kind of challenge is always at least a great learning experience like you said! I'd be pretty happy with those results if I was you! Good news is though you still rescued a nearly 150 year old piece of excellent history! Thanks for sharing it!


----------



## terryR

Nice collection of handles there, Bob! And a cool image, too. Personally, I like 'em all a little different…easier to spot the tool I want! LOL

Great job on the Disston tote. Sounds like a ton of good work. Sometimes applying the finish is the worst part!

Still, looks like a fine user to me!


----------



## Thrakintosh

Whata thread! I'm ~200 posts deep and … well, many to go.

My first (of many) Newbie Stupid Questions. For removing rust I'm guessing (from not reading it as an option) that a brass wire wheel on a drill is a no-no. Can anyone confirm?


----------



## CL810

*Adam*, stroll thru Brit's blog. All your questions, and more, will be answered.


----------



## dbray45

As a note, when you buy a file, get it home, and find that it is not as hard as you like - if it is reasonable steel, you can harden and temper it. I have done this a few times.


----------



## terryR

Thanks for sharing that, David. I've always wanted to ask!

Adam, sorry I cannot confirm the brass wheel. I've used a spinning brass wheel just long enough for a handful of the brass pieces to get stuck in my chest. ouch. Now, I just use WD-40, sandpaper, and elbow grease. I'm pretty sure folks use the wheel on nickel plated parts, not sure about steel…

And there's always EvapoRust soaking to remove the rust. Still, I've never seen a rusty saw that didn't take elbow grease to clean. I'm sure others will give feedback, too…Good Luck, and Welcome!


----------



## summerfi

Adam - I've never tried a brass wheel on a rusted saw plate, but my guess is that it wouldn't be very effective. I have tried, and purists may gasp at this, a steel wire wheel on certain problem areas, like along the teeth where it is hard to sand. You could do that on the entire plate, but it might leave a matted surface or show swirls, both of which are undesirable. If you followed up with hand sanding, IMHO even that wouldn't be much of a problem. As Terry indicated, wet sanding with WD-40, mineral spirits, or even water are the standard methods, making sure to sand parallel to the toothline. Lately I've been sanding with WD-40, and then following that up by "wet sanding" with naval jelly and a scotchbrite pad, and I'm liking the results. I'll admit, however, that I've even started with the belt sander with a fine grit belt on some badly rusted saws. You just have to be careful to not get the saw too hot, or it could destroy the temper. Whichever method you use, be extra careful in the area of the etch. There you want to do only hand sanding, using a block of wood and fine sandpaper. Keep the questions coming!


----------



## Slyy

Adam - Lots of elbow grease, as they say, is the key factor in cleaning up a rusty saw. As others have mentioned Brit's blog is a great place to get info. I'd also check out DonW's as well (both have made numerous contributions to this thread) and as you've figured out, this thread itself has numerous tidbits to glean as well! When It comes to your revival (I like this word much better than "restoration") what you do to clean the saw plate is pretty straight forward and most of the fellas here don't very too terribly much in the approach to that. The handles (tote) are a bit more of a personal thing I've come to notice, everyone has a bit different way to handle them so to speak!

Coming from a background of taking care of historically significant firearms, I'm a fan of avoiding sanding whenever you can. Most of these totes are just so incredibly thirsty for some oil and care that a little can go a long way! My personal preference is to spend a week or more on the worst of them and give them a coat or two of BLO a day (applied liberally and allowed to soak for 30 minutes then I wipe and buff off the extra with a shop rag). If the tote is especially weather and time worn doing the same but applying the BLO on a OOOO steel wool pad and rubbing with light pressure can go a long ways to bringing it back to life.
I'm always impressed how putting a little oil back in the wood and burnishing the surface with nothing more than a towel in my hand can actually bring a tote back to a nice smooth consistency in my hand with no sanding at all. And I still like the fact that a few battle scars here and there are maintained by the tote, evidence of its long history and the story it has to tell. I usually finish my totes with a few coats of Watco Danish oil and depending on what kind of shine I want, Paste Wax rubbed by hand to a slight sheen or finish it with a fine brush to a satin finish.

Certainly, doing a full on restoration of the saw to bring it back to "knew" is also an option and you'll look through this thread and see how there are many options as to how far you want to go, it's all personal preference.


----------



## donwilwol

I've used wire wheels. Especially if its pitted. I always stay away from the etch. I've never had it do anything negative, but I imagine it also depends on the wheel.

I usually test it were the handle will cover just in case. Naturally a restored saw will not have an original look, but most saws 100 years old wouldn't anyhow.


----------



## Tim457

Adam I can't say about a brass wheel either, but I chucked a steel cup brush into an angle grinder and went at a particularly bad saw plate that I didn't feel like sanding. It did get rid of the majority of the rust fairly quickly, but I wouldn't say I was overly happy with the result or sure that it saved me that much work. It threw up so much airborne rust dust in my basement shop I didn't want to stay in there and it took several hours to settle. A cup brush is much less aggressive than a knotted wire wheel and less than a regular wire wheel I think. A brass brush is softer so would be even less aggressive. Like Bob said the surface it left wasn't that great, if you don't brush the metal in the same direction everywhere you have patches. After a wire wheel you're going to have to sand more or do something else anyway.

I guess if you did it outside or with lots of ventilation and planned on sanding some after it could save some time, but probably carefully scraping the majority of the rust with a razor would have been better and almost as quick in a bad case. I do like Simple Green as a sanding lubricant much better than having to smell mineral spirits.


----------



## TobyC

Adam,...

http://thesawblog.com/?p=627

http://www.wkfinetools.com/tRestore/saw/sawBlade-bobStu/restSawBlade-1.asp

http://www.badaxetoolworks.com/cleaning-a-sawplate.html

http://home.grics.net/~weir/saw_restoration.html

And you may need these.

http://www.badaxetoolworks.com/unlocking-a-frozen-sawnut.html

http://www.wkfinetools.com/tRestore/saw/sawHandle-bobS/sawHandle1.asp


----------



## TobyC




----------



## Wally331

Bob that saw turned out gorgeous, not ugly at all, late 1800's disston no.7's are some of my favorites so I may be a bit biased 

@fullcity, I've used a cup brush in my angle grinder aswell, mine didn't leave any scratches in the plate, at least none that didnt come out after the first round of 220 grit sanding. The steel in the saw plate seems a lot harder then the wire steel, so it shouldn't leave bad scratches. It has actually become my go-to method for crispy saws. When wetsanding your plate give a product called simple green a try, it has worked excellently for me, really cleans out the pits well. Good luck!


----------



## Wally331

Not a saw file handle, but my new split nut driver handle. I got the driver from gram mercy, sooo much better then my old system, I can really tighten down on them now. I may make some more of these handles, I love the London patterns.








Little sneak peak of one of reds new saws


----------



## BigRedKnothead

You little rascal;-)


----------



## donwilwol

I did a review on Wally's saw. http://lumberjocks.com/donwilwol/blog/39131


----------



## Airframer

That saw is drool worthy Don. If you look close at the test cuts it looks like the LN wants to wander to the right where the Wally #001 is straight and true. Very cool!

In other news.. My wife got me the saw file set from LV for Christmas this year. Time to get sharpening finally (been dragging my feet at this for some reason).










Also.. Joe.. Not to prod a dead horse but this I find to be unsat and something I cannot imagine happening 50-100 years ago when a companies word of mouth reputation was all there was.

My 7" slim taper file came crumbly brand new out of the box. The pics don't show all the damage but over half of 2 sides are crumbled and the edges are worthless…


















And this is the end of my 4" 2XSlim file…









A craftsman a few short decades ago would have never spent what little money they were making on quality of this type when their livelihood depended on it and manufacturers knew this. They knew a quality product meant repeat business. Now it is a crap toss away product that forces repeat business.

These are supposedly top of the line Swiss made Gorbet files. They should do better.

Rant over..


----------



## Slyy

Wow Eric! That's really….. Sad really. I've been eyeing the LN file set for a while. Now this makes me wonder that I should maybe just buy individual files from a more direct source!


----------



## terryR

Dang, Eric, that sucks! I got the same pack of files from LV 8 months ago, and they are all good. Looks like quality control is down for the holidays! 

+1 to buying files in boxes of a dozen from a file vendor. Download that .pdf file posted here a few days ago.

This might be a good time for anyone to post links to quality file vendors…just sayin…


----------



## JustJoe

Eric I don't think that's beating a dead horse - a pic of an obviously defective file is, in my opinion, a bit more definitive than "I sharpened a saw of indeterminate hardness and the edge now looks worn." 
You got some bad files. And no, a craftsman of yore wouldn't have put up with such trash, he'd have found a better product or smacked some sense into the manufacturer (I think before 1950 you were allowed to spank your kids, beat your wife, and take a baseball bat to unscrupulous factory owners.)

But on the flip side, 50-100 years ago nobody would think of going to a designer/boutique tool store to buy a set of files in a pretty green pouch. He'd go down to his hardware store and ask Fred (or Larry if it was Saturday morning and Fred was sleeping off a bender) for a box of a dozen in whatever size he preferred.


----------



## chrisstef

Being 33 i just missed those days of the local hardware store and Fred. It kinda makes me mad. There was a physical, tangible relationship that occured in the exchange of money and goods. Small town hardware stores are hard to find for a younger generation that bounces around from city to city, state to state. We depend on the convienance of the internet and non traditional outlets. Theres no relationship there. Its cold, dirty and void of any tangible repercussions. There aint too many Fred's answering the phones in some off shore customer service center.

Wish we coulda been buddies Fred.


----------



## JustJoe

Oh Fred is gone, cirrhosis of the liver sometime back before they started killing the Kennedys. His son Rick inherited the place and tried to expand it into hardware/auto parts and groceries. That failed in the early seventies and after sitting empty for a few years the building's been used as an indoor flea market, baseball card shop, pawn shop, quickie-mart and there was even talk for a while of expanding it out back and making a roller rink. But that fell through and now it's just sitting there boarded up. They're going to bulldoze the place next spring and put in one of those fancy chain restaurants like Chilis or Wingstop. I hear they have good chicken wings, but we probably won't go. Mabel's cooking has always been good enough for me, besides she'd probably throw a fit if she found me sneaking out to try someone else's chicken.
Yep, those were good old days. It's amazing how time flies.


----------



## Brit

Luckily NOS files can still be bought in the US. Get them while you can folks. They are extremely rare anywhere else however and one day they will unfortunately run out.


----------



## theoldfart

Stef and Joe, Fred lives near by but his real name is Todd. His Dad started the store, he and his wife work it now and their two sons are working in it as well. The floors creak and they know their stuff. It's a comfortable place to be.


----------



## racerglen

Gawd I love this place….
And Joe y'all got a real bite going..
My go to local hardware store's been going since the late 40's (1940's) family show, they've been through a number of franchise affiliations in the last couple of decades, but still know you by name, are willing to try and find what ever you need elsewhere if need be.
Classic example was my turning up an old Plumb bench axe/hatchet with a cracked handle, Larry (yes, his REAL name) said they didn't have any of the handles any more but leave me with it. he went through his suppliers, and eventualy Plumb before he gave up.
Ended up madking my own out of Birch, but HE TRIED !


----------



## Airframer

Yeah, unfortunately I don't have a "local hardware" store that I can browse or have ordered for me whatever tools I need like there used to be. I have a HD and an ACE and that's it. They both stock Nicholson exclusively and I have had experience (bad) with that brand and don't feel like tossing money away on it. That leave my options as eBay or a "Boutique" online seller to find what quality still exists. I think the point everyone is trying to make is yes.. I got a bad file but that bad file should never have left the manufacturer and into the market in the first place. When you spend money on something you should get what you paid for. I shouldn't have to cross my fingers every time I buy a tool just hoping it isn't a dud.

I remember a bit ago when Mauricio bought a new SW Stanley #62 and had to send it back 3 times before he got one that functioned as intended. When you are dropping that kind of cash on something again.. it should just work.

Oh well.. whatcha gonna do. It really is up to the consumers but they have been trained to put up with this and are likely not to give a damn about it.


----------



## Brit

I always try to support my local hardware store whenever I can. It will be a sad day when they're n longer open. Fortunately, they seem to do a roaring trade at the moment and long may it continue.


----------



## summerfi

We had an old hardware store about a mile from our house. I loved going there with my dad. He would buy me a drink out of one of those coolers where the pop bottles stand in cold water. I usually got the chocolate Brownie drink-- best ever. I'd drink it while Dad shot the breeze with the owner, J.B. Thornton. Good memories. Now there is a strip mall there.


----------



## CL810

Gotta hate the Depot/Lowes/Walmart's and the "lowest possible price even if it's junk" mentality for what they've done to the locally owned businesses.


----------



## Brit

The recent storms in the UK have their benefits when you live on the edge of 150 square miles of ancient heaths and woodlands. So I took my litte skill saw and went to see what the wind and rain had brought down. Quite a lot of big trees had fallen, so I took the opportunity to grab several sections of English beech and 1 piece of English oak which I hope will be suitable for spoon carving and making tool handles, etc. That's about all I could carry. Actually it was more than I could carry, but you've got to suffer for your art haven't you?


----------



## TobyC

What's a "heath"?


----------



## Brit

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heath


----------



## summerfi

Nice collection Andy. It would be wise to seal the ends with paraffin to minimize checking as they dry.


----------



## ToddJB

All, I have a bead on a loot of old files, but in varying states of sharpness. Does this work, and does it have any ill effect?


----------



## chrisstef

I cant say directly one way or another Todd, but I think there was talk of vinegar working to clean the files. I just browsed through the vid with the sound off What kind of acid was used?


----------



## summerfi

Todd - Read this and then this and that should help you make a decision. The second link includes test results from treating files with acid.


----------



## ToddJB

Stef, so you saw an old guy in his yard sticking metal things in glass things? Good.

He used a sulfuric acid and water mix, which another guy pointed out that "The Works" toilet bowl cleaner would work better in his youtube comments.


----------



## ToddJB

Thanks Bob, I'll give it a look!


----------



## chrisstef

Yea pretty much but Im really good at making things up as I go along. Ya know, filling in my own words and music too. I really enjoyed the Hank tune he was humming but I couldn't get past the drawl he had in his voice. In my mind he also wore suspenders.


----------



## ToddJB

Bob, interesting data. It appears though, correct me if I'm wrong, that they tested a new file that was dipped in acid, vs a new file that wasn't. The result (for those who don't wanna read) was that the cheap metal India files were greatly deteriorated by the acid, and that there was a marginal (for the worse) difference in the better quality files.

But I guess my question is, does the same apply to well used, but good quality files? If they're not as sharp as they use to be will a dip in the acid bring some life back to them? The research didn't address it. Fingers crossed that someone here has already done the leg work for me


----------



## donwilwol

I've got some works in the shop. Gonna go throw some old files in it now.


----------



## ToddJB

Awesome! Thanks Don.


----------



## summerfi

Todd - True enough about the test, but the author did make this statement, which makes sense to me:

"For an old file - well, they are worn down and there is no substitute for missing steel! There may be some short term temporary benefit with an old file made from good steel, but that was not the object of this testing. One thing is absolute - the height of the teeth is reduced as the file wears down, and acid treatment can only make them shorter still, certainly not longer."

I'm anxious to see how Don's experiment turns out.


----------



## ToddJB

Thanks Bob, my skimming abilities missed that part. My thought would be if the acid eats all sides equally it would make the teeth sharp again and it would make them deeper too. But leaving you with an overall thinner file. But the proof is in the pudding… the non edible pudding in Don's garage.


----------



## donwilwol

How long do you thick they should soak? Over night to long?


----------



## CL810

The video said 1 hr.


----------



## donwilwol

So it was about 3 hours. But my first experiment may have been skewed. I'm not sure if the files were dull or just dirty and rusty, but they work much better now. I threw 2 more in the pot, but they'll be there until morning. These are dirty and dull.


----------



## Tim457

Todd, Boggstool comes highly recommended. Ran into Slav the file guy at an MWTCA tool meet and he said he had heard only good things. The other people in ear shot had used them and had good experiences. For the price it's worth a shot. I was going to buy up the next pile of files I saw for cheap and send them out in a flat rate box.


----------



## Slyy

Some very interesting file talk going on here fellas! Some interesting reads there Bob, good thing Don's doing the test drive for us!


----------



## summerfi

Tim - Thanks for the link to Boggs. I'd never heard of them. They certainly have a lot of good reviews on the internet. Their process is not acid, and they don't speak well of acid sharpening. I may have to round up some old files and rasps and give them a try.


----------



## ToddJB

Tim, thanks, I'll check them out.


----------



## donwilwol

Bob, there have been threads about Boggs on LJ before. The reviews are always good. .


----------



## chrisstef

I haven't sharpened a saw in a few weeks. Im getting itchy again. I think I might just have to get back to work on fixing up that Disston #12 I didn't do so well on the first time around.

Ive been thinking back on it and things got away from me when I started adding the fleam. I couldn't get rid of the shiners in the normal 2-4 strokes and the gullets go funky because of it. Did I joint it too much? Im not really sure but I think its time for that new magnifying lamp to come out of the box so I can really see whats going on with that saw.

Any thoughts, tips on sharpening crosscut saws or do I have to spend another night cuddled up with Andy on the couch? I guess it could be worse.


----------



## Brit




----------



## chrisstef

So you're saying you're in Andy? Sweet. Ill make the popcorn and I wont cut a hole in the bottom of the bucket again. Promise.


----------



## Brit

If you've messed up your tooth spacing, you are probably going to have to joint 1/3 off the height of the teeth and reshape the teeth concentrating on getting the spacing and gullet depth correct. Once you are back to that point, a light joint (2 strokes) and then file your fleam. Remember that when filing fleam you only need light strokes and you should bias your file very slightly towards the tooth leaning towards you, since it is easier to file the tooth leaning away from you. Hold your angles, same amount of pressure on each tooth, same number of strokes. I'm looking forward to the money shot.


----------



## Brit

LOL. That's funny.


----------



## chrisstef

Ill get it all cinched up in the vise this afternoon once I get off of work and take a good look through the magnifying lens. Its been a while since I worked on this saw. Remembering correctly, the teeth that leaned towards me wanted to make my file "jump" a little. Im thinking that the extra magnification will help me out a bunch in really being able to see whats shakin.

You drinkin over there yet Andy? Gotta be getting close to that time.


----------



## donwilwol

2 more files out of the works. I didn't take pictures, but these two were nasty, and now they are usable. Again, these are files that probably came from a box of misc stuff, were in the bottom junk for x number of years. Completely unusable and felt dull. Now they will file metal.

Now if you took a good file and used it until dull, stuck it in "the works", would it resharpen them? That's another test.

I will add, I've tried this in the past with evapo rust and it did not work.


----------



## summerfi

Stef - For me personally, learning to file a crosscut was at least 3x as hard as filing a rip. Once I discovered that I was canting my file ever so slightly to the right, even though I didn't perceive that I was, things got a whole lot better. If I was shooting for 15 degrees rake, for example, I was actually getting maybe 17 degrees on one side, and then when I flipped the saw around, maybe 13 degrees on the other side. This resulted in alternating fat and skinny teeth. I taped a line level to the top of my rake block, and now things go much better. I don't know if I'll ever develop a good enough feel to do it without the level.


----------



## chrisstef

I agree Bob. Xcut filing is substantially harder than filing for rip. Im pretty confident in my rip filing ability with about 5 saws under my belt. This is still my first xcut filing so im attempting to remain patient. I probably could have chosen a lesser quality saw than a 12 to start with but we all know how that story goes. I just need to get back at it and practice away. Im using the Veritas filing guide as a crutch but I do have a tendency to roll my wrist to one side or another which would throw the rake off. Ill make sure to keep an eye on it. I appreciate the insight as to how it will compound the possible problems.


----------



## ToddJB

Don - Thanks for the test and update. I didn't know how aggressive the works would be but was a little worried about leaving it over night. I guess it's not too aggressive. I definitely think it's worth a shot to pick up some of these old ones and give it a go.


----------



## donwilwol

I've let plane part sit in it over night. It never hurt them, so I wasn't worried, especially since the files were not anything to worry about.


----------



## donwilwol

remember this one, http://lumberjocks.com/replies/744710





































Somebody asked about this tip. I'm not sure what it is, but the bottom part looks like some kind of wood reinforcement was used. I mixed up some epoxy, darken it and just filled in the gaps. There was some wood showing, like the bottom part of the tip had deteriorated and was filled.










and a current thumbhole family shot.


----------



## Brit

Nice family shot Don.


----------



## chrisstef

Thumbhole heaven there Don.

Heres a shot of the teeth on that 12. I cant figure where i had left off so i think ill start over again reshaping the teeth to 15 degrees rake and 20 degrees of fleam.


----------



## Tim457

Is this the one you're saying is all messed up Stef? It looks pretty good. Maybe that's why I'm not having as much trouble sharpening saws as other people, my standards are lower. I figure if it cuts better than it did before and I'm trying to keep in mind the advice I've watched and read to keep the teeth even and stuff then I'm ok and not hurting anything. Normally I'm a perfectionist so it's a welcome change.

Thumbhole rips are pretty cool. Though in the bench top ripping position with both hands on the saw it is a little harder to steer to the line I've noticed. I guess if you do that after getting it started straight it's better.


----------



## chrisstef

Yea thats the one Tim. The teeth are in better shape then i had remembered. I just got done sharpening half of the teeth on it. Ill flip it around tonight and see if i cant polish it off. So far so good on the crosscut filing. I added a bit more set to it as i was having a tough time determining which teeth were leaning which way. Im very interested to see how it finishes up.


----------



## jordanp

The recent ice storms yielded some nice wood here in North Texas. This is some pear wood I snagged recently.


----------



## CL810

Jordan, my reference guide list pear as scarce. Do you have any plans for it and is it scarce in your area?


----------



## Wally331

I couldn't do much work on saws today as the finish was drying, so I built a much needed saw vise, got a new batch of handles started too!


















Don those thumbholes are sweet, I'd love to make some at some point in time, I haven't seen one in the wild yet unfortunately.

I agree with you guys on it being 5x harder to sharpen crosscut then rip, I had the same problem as Bob and I am finally getting the hang of it now, I just need to practice a lot.

That pear should make some nice tool handles Jordan.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Well shucks, I had no idea crosscut was that much harder. At least the next saw I might order would be rip;-)


----------



## jordanp

I'm sending some up north to someone when I can figure out how to cut it up into blocks. There are a lot of Bradford pear trees in our area, it's not identical to a traditional pear tree but the wood seems to be the same from what I can tell.

I could have picked up 100x what I have sitting here but I have no room.

Wally if I can get it cut down "correctly" I will try and send you some saw hand blanks.


----------



## terryR

Wally, nice looking vice! Need to get busy on mine…

Hey, Jordan, is there still a ton of that pear for you to collect? At that diameter, it's worth a fortune! Too bad we live so far apart, I'd be happy to store a bunch for ya! LOL. Seriously, I'd love to trade or buy one piece large enough for a saw tote if possible?


----------



## chrisstef

Nice score Jordan. Many a handle can come out of those logs. I say scoop up the rest .. youll find a home for em.

I finished up the 12 last night. Too much set IMO but it does cut much much better but leaves a ragged surface behind. Way too ragged for a 10 ppi crosscut saw. I think ill try and knock off a bit of the set and see how she rolls. Then its off to fixing that missing horn which will require major surgery.


----------



## donwilwol

My observation has been It seems the initial reaction is to over set. After you've done it a time or two, you get the idea its easier to add a little more set then take a little away.


----------



## terryR

Congrats on finishing the No.12, Stef. I was using mine yesterday, and felt it had too little set and binds easily in the cut. Of course, the problem could be ME cutting a twisted kerf up high on the bench top. Need saw bench. And more practice cutting! LOL


----------



## chrisstef

That's the truth Don. I usually use just a click or 2 over from the finest setting but I went over 4 clicks on this one. Its not a massive amount of set but enough to make me unhappy with it. I think that a few swipes with a stone on either side should get me back to where id like to be. Ive also got a few random shiners left that I couldn't get rid of without screwing up my gullets. Overall I give it a C+ for my first attempt at crosscut filing and that aint too shabby in my book. Ill get some pics of the toofises tonight, my phone was dead last night.

Ill tell ya flipping the saw around and working the opposite angles is a mind bender. Just when ya thought you had the muscle memory down ya gotta go flip and reverse the technique.

Edit - Ill second the need for a saw bench Terry. I drift like hell to the left cutting off my bench top. Its annoying. Ive gota piece of reclaimed pine that's been begging to be made into a saw bench. I think its mocking me standing against the rack.


----------



## Brit

"Ill tell ya flipping the saw around and working the opposite angles is a mind bender."

Ain't that the truth! It gets to be second nature once you've messed up a couple of saws and filed some cows and calves. Congrats on your first crosscut Stef, that's a big milestone right there. Looking forward to the pics and we won't be fobbed off any blurry sh!t. LOL.


----------



## chrisstef

No blurry pic I promise Andy. Even if the teeth suck I need to know whats going on. Ya know I seen a trick where someone took the lens off the end of a laser pointer and put it over the camera on their phone to take macro pics. If I can scrounge one up in the office im on that ish.

I found that repeating nonsensically to myself "Front of the tooth leaning away from you" helped out. I need cliff notes.


----------



## Brit

I went back to the New Forest today for some more wood. So many trees down and according to the weather forecast, there's more bad weather due in the next couple of days. The whole of the UK is now on flood alert. I'm running out of ways to get out of my neighbourhood now due to flooding.










I have got to find out where all this wood ends up.










Still, these Gloucester Old Spots don't seem too worried.


----------



## donwilwol

Good luck Andy. We've got 15" of snow in progress and the high tomorrow is 6 degrees.


----------



## TobyC

Andy,

Hog heaven?

You said "New Forest", what's that?

Have you checked the "Old Forest"?


----------



## TobyC

I answered one.


----------



## donwilwol

that bacon wouldn't make it long around here!!


----------



## TobyC

Bransgore? Burley?


----------



## Brit

Thanks Don, you too.

Toby - Yeah calling it the New Forest is a bit misleading considering it was started in 1079 by William l as a royal hunting ground. I was staring at a 700 year old oak tree today and I couldn't get the word 'slab' out of my head. I used to live in Burley, but now I live just outside the New Forest.


----------



## chrisstef

As promised heres the teeth of that 12. Feedback welcomed.


----------



## Brit

That's very good for a first attempt Stef, definitely better than mine. Looking closely at the teeth, I'd say that you need to concentrate on ensuring your pressure is straight down and that each stroke follows the path of the previous stroke exactly. Some of your gullets look a bit wide at the bottom, perhaps because you were focusing on pressing on the front of the tooth leaning away from you instead of straight down. Look at your gullets, then look at the gullets in the following photo. See how consistently shaped they are.

Also, if you squint at the photo below and just focus on the black area, you'll notice that the points of the teeth leaning away from you appear lower than the points of the teeth leaning toward you. Of course in reality they aren't, it is just an illusion caused by the fleam on the teeth. However, when I look at the teeth in you photo I'm not seeing the same illusion. The points on the teeth leaning away from you appear to be the same height as the teeth leaning toward you and they shouldn't appear the same height, even though in reality they actually are all the same height. Notice too that the rake angle is consistent from tooth to tooth in the photo below, whereas in your photo I can see some variation.










Like I said though, way better than my first attempt. What size file did you use? What make?


----------



## ErikF

Chrisstef

What is the purpose of the alternating rake angle? Is there something else going on other that tooth shape?


----------



## ErikF

My bad, I didn't see Brits post. Brit, where do you get your files?


----------



## chrisstef

Much appreciated feedback Andy. I picked up on some of the things that you touched on like wide gullets but never knew what caused them. My pressure was a bit skewed towards the back of the tooth. I also feel luke my rake wobbled around on me when i switched sides like Bob had talked about earlier. I think thats what Erik is picking up on too. I also didn't get that nice knife edge as ahown in your pic.

It feels like im starting to file all over again trying to do it crosscut but this is good. I need to talk things out sometimes.

Question #1:
So after ive reshaped the teeth with no fleam i lightly joint the teeth to get my shiners. Then i add the fleam to my file holder while keeping the same rake, same position of the saw (heel to my right). My fleam angle is skewed to my left (toward the toe) at 20 degrees. I begin to file the front of the tooth leaning away from me, skipping a tooth, until i remove half or all of the shiner?

Question 2: 
Ive now flipped my saw end for end. The toe is at my right. I spin my Veritas file holder to tge opposite setting for both rake and fleam. Again filing the front of the tooth leaning away from me. My file is now skewed towards the right (tge toe). Do i file again from right to left? Should i be removing half a shiner?

If this make no sense ill picture document my next attempt.


----------



## chrisstef

File is a Simonds red tang. New stock. Made in india i believe. Id have to go and check the size i cant recall.aybe a 6" xslim.


----------



## Slyy

All this saw talk reminds me that I still need to find time to sit down and watch Andy work some magic on the YouTube.


----------



## Armandhammer

This worth a look for $30 locally?


----------



## Slyy

That looks like a post WWII D-23 with the later handle style And nickle plated saw nuts, it's for sure better than almost any comperable modern day saw (certainly the big box versions). As to the actually value of that saw versus the asking price, wish I had more insight, I'm sure Andy or one of the others will chime in soon to help better there. It's not very vintage as far as Disstons specifically are concerned, being among the last of their production efforts, but I'm sure it would make a fine user saw, and it's still probably 60 years old or so!


----------



## Brit

*Eric* - The short answer is wherever I can. I use either the Bahco files or Grobet Swiss files. I get the Bahco files from Workshopheaven.com and my current Grobet Swiss files came from Leevalley.com because I bought them as a set in the green canvas role they offer along with their rake/fleam guide that they make. Be aware that the quality of saw files these days is appalling, the biggest problems being inconsistency in the edge profile and the hardness. You should expect to receive some crap files and you shouldn't hesitate to send them back and complain if the edges crumble after a few strokes or you are unable to get a nice round gullet. These issues are even more pronounced in the smaller file sizes such as 4" double extra-slim (for sharpening 16ppi and above). For this reason, I now use Vallorbe needle files instead of saw files for these smaller teeth. The standard of manufacture is a lot higher on needle files bought from a reputable company such as Vallorbe. They are also more expensive though. I shape the teeth with a cut 4 needle file and sharpen them with a cut 6.

*Stef*
Answer 1 - You should be removing half the shiner. If you shaped the teeth correctly, the shiners should all be the same size. This means that you can count the number of strokes it takes to remove half the shiner and use the same number of strokes on each tooth. As long as you hold your angles and use the same amount of pressure, you will get a consistent result. (Easier said than done.)
Answer 2 - I always file from the handle to the toe, regardless of which side the handle is on and yes you should be removing the remaining half of the shiner to bring the teeth to a point.

Remember in the video, I kept referring to the need to develop a sense of feel? You've already started to develop that feel by being able to file rip teeth consistently. Now your sense of feel needs to be heightened even more, taken to the next level if you will, which will happen if you persevere. It feels awkward when you start to file the teeth on the second side because the hand holding the tip of the file is at more of a stretch and your body has to learn to compensate for that. I've found that it is best not to start sharpening the teeth on a crosscut saw unless I have the time to complete both sides. It is difficult to get back in the zone if you do each side on separate days. I also find that it is best not to stop halfway through a side either. I wait until I have enough time, then I plant my feet and just move my upper body relative to the saw.

Go as slow as you need to at first. Speed comes with confidence and confidence is something you gain through experience. Remember that right now you are training your body to work at a new level of accuracy. With each tooth you file, you are receiving feedback through your eyes, your ears and your hands. Your brain has to learn how to use all that data and prompt you to make any necessary micro adjustments before your file lands in the next gullet. Then the whole cycle starts again. Amazing isn't it, but until it becomes second nature, it requires a lot of concentration and you'll feel physically and mentally drained at the end of it. You should expect it to take 3 or 4 crosscut sharpenings before you are truly happy with the results, but you're off to a great start with your first attempt Stef.


----------



## Brit

*Armandhammer* - Sounds like a fair price to me, considering it doesn't look like any restoration needed.


----------



## chrisstef

Solid advice as always Andy. Like I said it feels like im learning it all over again which is weird because I now have a god bit of confidence in my ability to file rip. Ill certainly persevere and get it done. The hard part for me is knowing that you're doing something wrong, because you can feel or see it, but not know whats causing it. As was the case in my funky looking gullets. I think I get the best feedback through my ears and hands. I can feel when the file really grabs and then again when it gets smoother. You can hear the different tones produced by the file too. When you're head down staring at a row of teeth for a while its hard to see whats going on even through magnification.

Ive got a Disston 7 at 7ppi that im going to try out next. Im thinking of increasing the fleam angle to 25 degrees so that knife edge will be a bit more pronounced visually. I think that will help me out a bit.


----------



## chrisstef

goo - double post.


----------



## planepassion

Armandhammer, I would cringe at paying $30.00 for a late-model Disston with nickel-plated nuts/bolts. It is clearly in great shape, with a great etch. And the D-23 that I have is a great user, especially on crosscuts to "almost-size" parts. Though, to be honest, I usually reach for a No. 8 that I picked up at the end of an estate sale for free. It had a kink and I wanted to practice smithing the sawplate. It came out perfectly (for once) and now it's a colossal user.

The short of it is, that I would suggest saving your saw dollars for another day. Unless you're going to "collect" the D-23.


----------



## chrisstef

Kind of a bonehead question here but whatever …

So LJ Wally had sent me a beautiful handle to replace a broken one from a Langdon miter box saw I would like to put back in action. He didn't drill any holes in the handle because without the plate who knows if theyd line up. So should I affix the handle and drill through both the handle and the plate or should I some how attempt to use the old handle to drill holes through the handle only, leaving the holes in the plate as is?


----------



## Brit

*Stef* - Read this.


----------



## chrisstef

Friggin Andy …. you got all the tricks! Tonight, tonight, tonight, whoooaaa ohhhh. I be drilling. Langdon Miter Box saw, youre in cue baby. You gots a Wally walnut handle waiting for you.


----------



## terryR

Nice trick, Andy, Thanks!

My method WAS to tape a cardboard template to the plate, and poke holes from the backside, then transfer to the tote…learned something new today!


----------



## donwilwol

I would have done the cardboard template as well Terry. I'm posting that link in my references so I don't loose it.


----------



## Armandhammer

@Brad…nope. No collecting for me, not yet. I don't even have any tools (except my table saw which isn't really setup) to use yet much less collect. So at this point, everything I look at is intended to be used.


----------



## ErikF

Can somebody explain or post a link showing a good closeup of a hybrid or X-cut? I am building a set of saws right now and would like to file a few of the plates with this layout. I have read about what it is but I can't find a good picture showing the tooth geometry I would be shooting for. Thanks


----------



## Brit

Basically a hybrid or combination saw is one that will both x-cut and rip, although it won't do either as well as two saws filed to do each task well. As you can seel from this blog post, opinions vary considerably on what the tooth geometry should be on a hybrid saw. Also check out the next post in that blog series.


----------



## ErikF

I feel like I have the filing process over complicated in my mind. So I would file similar to a crosscut but with less fleam and more rake? Not quite as much rake as a rip saw but more than would be typical a a strict crosscut saw? Also, going out with an idea floating around that I havent tried out yet. Once a saw is filed rip would you be able to file at a steep slope with the proper angle to have one crosscut tooth and one rip. Here is where I might be going far out…set the teeth as a pair. One crosscut in front of a rip, one tooth slices while the other clears the waste is a scraping manor. If someone was done this, let me know. If not I might ruin a perfectly good set of teeth this weekend.


----------



## Mosquito

I think technically it'd be less rake than a crosscut. A 0° rake angle is considered "none" if I'm not mistaken. But you have the idea, somewhere between crosscut and rip for both.

What you're talking about sounds similar to a timber saw, with cutters and rakers


----------



## ErikF

Yes, a more relaxed rake is what I meant. I haven't done any work with timber saws but am wondering it is feasible to accomplish on smaller backsaws.


----------



## Brit

Mos is right Erik. Let say you had three backsaws sharpened as follows:

Rip: 5 degrees of rake, 3 degrees of fleam
Hybrid: 10 degrees of rake, 17.5 degrees of fleam.
X-cut: 15 degrees of rake, 25 degrees of fleam

So you can see how filing a hybrid saw will mean you can rip and you can x-cut, just not as well as saws dedicated to each task.

If I understand your filing suggestion correctly, you are suggesting setting two teeth to one side, then two teeth to the other side, etc., with on tooth in each pair filed x-cut and one tooth file rip, the purpose being to achieve a saw that will x-cut and rip. If my understanding is correct, I don't think that would work very well because you are effectively halving the number of PPI when ripping or crosscutting. In other words it is twice the distance from one rip tooth to the next and twice the distance from one x-cut tooth to the next. Try it, I might be wrong.


----------



## ErikF

I thought there was more to the hybrid cut but it is pretty straight forward, thanks. I'm going to give the alternating tooth filing a shot and if it works I'll post a picture of the teeth and if the saw is worth using after its completed.


----------



## TobyC

A backsaw filed rip will cut crosscut and rip very well, try it if you doubt me.


----------



## ErikF

I file most of my saws rip and have been happy with their crosscutting. I am interested in filing different profiles just to see if it works.


----------



## TerryDowning

This is the method I'm going to try first (Once I find some time to sit down and file some saws)

from Paul Sellers


----------



## GMatheson

Here is an ad I stumbled upon that should handle all your sharpening needs

Foley Sharpening Tools


----------



## DanKrager

I'm not drooling over the Foley stuff. I had that entire setup thinking I was going to run a sharpening shop on the side and become rich. (!) The automatic saw filer was difficult and unruly to use because of the way the teeth were advanced to the next cut. The theory might be good, but the reality is that I could hand sharpen better than that filer could. If I ran it manually, basically using it as an overpriced file holder, then I could get reasonable results. Just a heads up for the easy droolers… 
DanK


----------



## summerfi

My dad had those same machines and more, and sharpened thousands - probably tens of thousands - of saws on them over his lifetime. He started with an earlier version of the Foley sharpener that was painted gray, wore it completely out, and then replaced it with the newer green version above. There is no possible way he could have sharpened all those saws by hand, though he was also expert at sharpening by hand. As Dan indicated, they are tricky to learn to use, but once you've mastered it, they do an excellent job. When properly adjusted and operated, every tooth is filed exactly the same, and even the best hand filer would have difficulty matching that degree of consistency. The one thing it can't do, however, is file sloped gullets.


----------



## donwilwol

I had one as well Dan. It came from a local college. I couldn't figure the darn thing out. I couldn't give it away either, so I parted it out. It was on a nice rolling cart that became my sharpening bench.


----------



## Airframer

Just won this guy..










A Dunlap No. 4872 . Anyone have any experience with one of these? Sure seems like it would make sharpening a lot simpler.


----------



## CL810

I need opinions from the esteemed panel please. Picked up 3 xcut saws at a flea market for $10 thinking they would be good saws to learn xcut sharpening on down the road. Once I brushed off enough dirt I got a little excited about one in particular. A 9 ppi 20" D-8 1896-1917.



















Here's the question. Will this amount of pitting keep this a saw to practice on or could it become a user?


----------



## donwilwol

Its hard to tell how deep the pitting will be, but I would guess it would work as a user. I would clean it up with that intent in mind.


----------



## JayT

Mos and I are putting together a 2014 calendar of not just planes, but all the seemingly linked threads. You know the Hand Planes Workbench Tool Box Saw Vintage Drills Chisels Smackdown of Your Dreams stuff. Also planning to incorporate pics from the three tools swaps held in 2013. I have been pulling pics and will be asking for some higher resolution images, too.

What I would like is to be sure that everyone has the opportunity to say whether or not they would like pictures they have taken and posted included. Please PM me a "Yep, include my pics/plane/projects" type message in the next couple of days if you are OK with that or a "No, please do not use my stuff" if not.

I'll post this message in a couple of the other threads, too and then, if necessary, contact any stragglers via PM. Hopefully calendars will be available to order in a week or so.

Thanks in advance.


----------



## DonBroussard

@JayT-Or y'all can just get our stuff off of Ted's Woodworking! Just kidding. Thanks for taking the lead on the calendar too.


----------



## Tim457

I've used a pretty pitted saw that I didn't even have time to polish up and it cut pretty well since i did take the time to sharpen it, so I guess it depends on your standards for the saw Clayton, but I think it will make a good enough user for you.

Eric how does that thing attach so it's not in the way? Does seem like if you got used to it it would help with consistency.


----------



## CL810

Thanks Don & Tim. I'm pumped.


----------



## Airframer

Like this.. (different guide but the same method..)


----------



## Tim457

Ah that makes sense.

Yeah the handle on that one looks great, the horns are almost perfect. Nice score.


----------



## TobyC

CL810,

Clean it, sharpen it, and love it!

20" 9ppi is a great little saw, might become your favorite!


----------



## Slyy

Clayton, nice score there! Still looking for my first D-8! Picked up some planes at a flea market couple weeks ago, guy said he had "tons of saws" in the back of his barn. Said if he could get to 'em he'd bring next time. Hoping maybe I can find a good score in a few weeks!!


----------



## CL810

Yeah Toby, it's going to be perfect for my travel tool chest.

Good luck Slyy!


----------



## summerfi

Gentlemen:
I would like to advance a discussion of split-nut saw screws and the making thereof in the home workshop. There is a definite need for these in the restoration of old saws and the building of new ones, but their commercial availability is limited and expensive. Of the two commercial sources I know of, prices range from $6.75 to $15.00 PER 1/2" SCREW. I don't begrudge them asking that price-brass is expensive and it takes equipment, time and skill to produce quality screws, especially in small quantities. However, I'd prefer to make a quality screw myself at a lower cost if that is possible.

I know there has been a lot of talk on saw forums, and nearly as many attempts at making split nut screws, usually with mixed results. The best known treatise on the topic is Leif Hansen's Poor Boy Split Nuts. These are okay, but I think we can do better. All of us together are smarter than any of us alone. So, I would like to begin a discussion of how to make these using tools commonly available in the home workshop. I doubt any of us has "the" answer right now, but as we work our way through a discussion, I believe a better answer will emerge than the one we now have. Think about these questions:
What have you tried to date?
Did it work? If not, why not?
What ideas do you have to advance the art and science of making saw screws?
What sources do you know about (i.e. brass stock, pertinent tools, etc.) that may be helpful to someone else.

Let me start by showing a couple pictures of some screws I made today. I would be happy to share the techniques I used with anyone who wants to know. This was not my first attempt, but my best attempt to date. I'm not satisfied and want to improve. These have several areas (not all apparent in the photos) where they could be better. So with this as a starting point, let the discussion begin.


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## Wally331

I basically use the same technique for making my split nuts as lief. I start with 9/16 brass bar stock from McMaster, use my schools lathe to drill as deep as I can into the brass. After that I tap as far as I can go, then put the brass into a special jig I built with two set screws and hacksaw away.

I bet I could make 30/hr if I had a lathe at my house and wasn't limited by that. If I go from both sides of my brass stock I can get 20-30 slices, enough for 4 to 5 saws. Even that said if your only making one saw, you only need 6 little slices and a drill press and jig would be fine. I have had a lot of problems with my bits wandering and going off center on my drill press though.

Do you guys think I could get a metal cutting blade for my bandsaw to increase cutting speed? I can swap out the motor for one half the speed and 1/3 of the hp. I think that would really increase my speed in making them.

I have gotten pretty consistent with my hacksaw but some sort of indexing jig for a bandsaw would be perfect Imo. Cutting the 1/8th inch brass threaded rod is real quick, and soldering them into the nuts is fairly quick, efficient, and cheap. Quite strong too, at least two or three times as strong as jbweld.

I would really like to turn nuts from solid stock but that is a lot of material to mill. I know almost nothing about using metal lathes and neither does the fabrication teacher… No machining classes anymore  However, they are getting a cnc lathe and I think I could do a big production run for a lot cheaper then what I am now.

Overall the screws are time consuming to make now that I think about it, but no more than an hour or so is spent on enough screws for one saw. Batching them out, like every other mass produced item is the best way to go about it.

A lot of that was rambling so sorry about that, just a few ideas and food for thought.


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## summerfi

Wally - thanks for that great information. Here are some questions and comments for you.
I'd like to see the jig you made for slicing off the nuts. Will you post a pic please?
Regarding hacksaws, I've been using a very thin metal cutting blade that fits in a coping saw. Works great, wastes less brass, and is easier for me to control than a full size hacksaw. Got them at ACE hardware. Using a band saw with metal cutting blade is a good idea too.
So do I understand correctly that your screws consist of a threaded rod with a nut on each end, i.e. you can see the end of the rod on both sides of the saw?
Do you have any sort of square shoulder to prevent the screw from turning in the saw as it is tightened or loosened?
I don't have a metal lathe, so it has been problematic for me to bore and tap the hole exactly parallel to the long axis of the brass. It's also difficult to get the hole perfectly centered in the end of the brass.
Some sort of an indexing setup is a good idea. One problem I'm having is consistency in the thickness of the nuts.
What kind of solder are you using?
Are you cutting the screw slots with a hacksaw, and do you have a problem getting them exactly centered on the hole?

Thanks Wally. This is exactly the kind of discussion I was hoping to get going.


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## DocBailey

CL810
Here is the low-down on pitting as regards handsaws.
Setting aesthetics aside, performance is affected by pitting in different ways depending on the saw's configuration.
On a rip saw, pitting in the toothline area (or future toothline area) has little to no effect on performance, since rip saw teeth basically act as a series of little chisels, knocking out chips as you saw)
Pitting is more problematic on cross-cut teeth, whose leading edges are beveled (fleam) and filed so as to sever fibers as you cut.
A sharp edge has been defined as a zero radius intersection of two planes.
Pits (missing areas of metal) which fall in the region of the leading edge of cross-cut teeth, mean that that area of the tooth can never truly be sharpened.
Having said all this, the worse case scenario is that on a heavily pitted saw, some teeth will do less work than others.


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## TobyC

IanW split nuts.


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## summerfi

Thanks for that link Toby. Another bit of info to add to the mix. Let me also say that even if some of you have never tried to make saw screws, you may have ideas that would be helpful, so chime in on the discussion. Sometimes an uninitiated but unbiased point of view is helpful.


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## Wally331

I am wondering what kind of files everyone has been using. Awhile back I traded stef some files for a handle, they are Simonds red tang. They have held up decently well, but the corners are prone to fracturing and when one goes, the teeth behind it stand no chance. I think I can find and order some simonds online if I call around, but I was searching and found that sears carries grobet taper files. Not only do they have a much larger selection then lie nielsen or tools for working wood, but they are considerable cheaper. So much so that it kind of scares me, the TFWW 7' extra slim is $63.95 while the same box of 12 files, also grobet from sears is $46.92. 5"extra slim from TFWW is $47.95 and from sears it is $40.71. Should I take the chance with the sears grobet and hope they are the swiss grobets? or stick to my Simonds?

Apart from that I restored a "Browns No. 3" last night. It is made by the keystone saw works, aka Disston. I'm fairly certain they bought out Mr. Brown but still sold their saws under that title, like their Harvey Peace line etc. Either way it is quite a nice saw, good taper grind, nice visible etch, warranted superior medallion. 10pt x-cut. Should be a nice user.









And finally for Bob: here is the jig for cutting the slots in my split nuts. Extremely simple, just saw a quick kerf, and drill a hole the size of your bar stock somewhere in the middle. Hopefully it is a very tight fit and you have to pound the nuts in with a mallet. Gets the slot nice and centered.









I am using a fairly modern solder, I will have to check the composition later. It is not silver solder, but I may upgrade to either that or brazing if I get a mapp torch. So far the lead/tin solder seems very strong.

As for having a square shoulder, it seems unnecessary. The bit I bought from master mechanic is probably a bit undersized due to poor manufacturing, so I literally have to pound the nuts in (god that sounded wrong). When installing them into saws I now wax the side you tighten with a split nut driver, I find it really helps to wrench those suckers down.

How did you grind the taper on the nuts? I have been chucking them in a drill and have tried my beltsander and also my small handcranked grinder. Looking for a better solution.


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## Tim457

Wally those Grobet sears are selling are almost certainly the Grobet American (NOT made in USA, more like India or somewhere) ones, not the Swiss ones. TFWW is selling the Grobet Swiss which should be higher quality. Though supposedly the ones marked Swiss aren't all made in Switzerland anymore either.

Amazon has good prices for the Grobet American if you want those. If you can find contact info for Slav Jelesijevich in Chicago I think, he usually has NOS saw files.


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## summerfi

Thanks for the pic Wally. That's pretty much what I thought of doing, just haven't done it yet. What type of jig do you have for slicing the nuts off the bar stock?

I tried some red Lock Tite on my screws today. Will have to see how it does. I've played around with silver solder but wasn't too successful. Haven't tried regular solder.

To grind the angle, I chuck the nuts up in a drill like you, then hold them against the disk sander. I need to make a gauge or jig so the angles are consistent though.

Nice job on the Brown's No. 3. Is that an original handle? It looks like new. Been meaning to ask you, what is your new and improved method for taking the blue off new saw plate stock?


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## terryR

I'm loving the discussion of split nits, guys! Way over my shop skill level, but I might be interested in buying a few when either of you have extras?

Wally, if those files are in the blue and white checkered box, they are Grobet USA (made in India). Any time you want a box of those, just PM me, and I'll pay you to take 'em off my hands! LOL.

Great job on the Browns No.3. Any chance that one is for sale?


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## summerfi

Terry, don't kid us. I've looked at your projects and your shop skills are nothing to complain about. I absolutely love those knives. I don't plan to sell any split nuts, but I could be tempted to swap some for a knife one day when I get the process down.


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## ToddJB

Coping saw blades? Are they all created equal? Will a run to the big box store do me fine, or should I look else where?


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## terryR

Todd, do yourself a favor and look for skip tooth blades. $7 a dozen here…
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/dept/TS/item/MS-COPE.XX

Bob, Thanks! I'll be in touch…


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## Mosquito

Just listed a couple saws on eBay… finally getting around to cleaning shop before moving…


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## BigRedKnothead

Terry, I wonder have those differ from the coping blades LV sells. I like those quite a bit.


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## ToddJB

Terry and Red - Thanks Gents, I'll check 'em out. The cheaper shipper will probably win the business on this sale.


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## terryR

Those blades from LV are probably high quality if Red likes 'em! LOL. But you might want to try a skip tooth pattern one of these days. I use them on the scroll saw since that's what the pros use, and they really clear debris. After Andy recommended some for the coping saw, I grabbed some, and my dovetails are…

...ummm…

...my dovetails are still the same. 

Seriously, though, I also spent the $12 for Olson's saw that TFWW sells, and with the better blades than I've always used from HomeD, I really used the coping saw to cut out spoon blanks. Never considered that with the $7 Borg saw.


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## Brit

That's funny Terry. LOL.


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## ToddJB

Terry, you used more words. I'll go with yours. Sorry Red.


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## BigRedKnothead

hehehe…..oh I don't care. I didn't even know what a skipped tooth blade was until today Always learning something here. I might try them when I bust all my LVs….but that will be awhile. Those things are tough.

Sidenote- ever since I met Joel from TFWW.com at the handworks event, I try to support his business/website. Long story short, the dude's a great guy.


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## upchuck

Summerfi and others-besides coolness and historical accuracy is there any practical advantage to split nuts for connecting saw plates to handles? I made a split nut screwdriver last night and successfully removed three nuts from a no name saw. My first attempt on another saw ruined the nuts and the handle. I was just wondering if I'm missing something (a frequent thing with me). Thanks


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## summerfi

Chuck - No real practical advantage. The later type screws are actually more effective as a fastener. They would look pretty out of place on a 19th century saw though. If the saw were just a user and the owner didn't care about looks or historical correctness, then it probably doesn't matter. If it is a saw of any value and you thought you might ever sell it or hand it down to heirs, then I'd stay with split nuts. There are some techniques for disassembling split nuts that will help avoid damage to the nuts and the handle, but they are not 100% successful. On some saws (probably a minority) it may be best to just leave the nuts and handle intact and do a restoration with handle in place.


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## upchuck

Summerfi-Thank you. I didn't mean to belittle coolness or historical correctness. Both have their place. 
"All things being equal" (and in my world "all things" are rarely equal) I prefer to keep my user tools as "historically correct" as possible.
I am not Catholic…
I am not prone to confession…
But please forgive me…
(Those with weak stomachs may want to avoid looking.)


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## CL810

Ohhhh man, that hurt.


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## Slyy

Whoops….. That had to have made a heart wrench noise…..


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## ToddJB

Can someone explain what I'm looking at here, and why it sucks?


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## chrisstef

Busted nut … no bueno.

So ive been working a Disston 7 for a couple of nights on and off. It was originally filed as a 7ppi xcut. The "client" requested that a 7ppi rip saw would be round out his till so I figured id kind of share my experience here.

This particular saw looked to have a rake angle of around 15 degrees and its included fleam of 20 -25 degrees. I reshaped the teeth to 7 degree of rake and zero fleam. Im keeping the set as is. Here are some of the things that I noticed while reshaping the teeth.

After making roughly 6 passes of the teeth jointing them I observed a big flat followed by a small flat which continued for the length of the teeth. This was expected because of the amount of set on the saw. Im assuming that it was set after its sharpening which kind of makes the teeth high / low? So at this point its time to start filing a new rake as well as evening out those flats.

I would bias my file against the larger flat tooth. Most of the pressure remained straight down while filing at 90 degrees straight across the plate, but I would apply a bit pressure toward that tooth with a larger flat on both the front and back side of the tooth. I ran through all of the teeth doing this. This is what left my gullets slightly out of whack I presume. One would be deeper than the one next to it.

So with that I once again jointed the teeth, all though a bit lighter this time. Maybe 3 or 4 passes. This left the shiners much more consistent than the first jointing but they still were not 100% uniform. I filed all the teeth again this time aiming to even out the gullets. Instead of the 8-10 strokes per gullet it took on the first pass through this time was a bit easier at 4-5 strokes per. I had little fleam left over from the original crosscut filing to deal with which was nice, removing the fleam was pretty noisy and made the file really grab. Again I lightly jointed the teeth with a very light 3 passes. Finally my shiners are all uniform.

This is where it sits as of last night. All ive got left is the final sharpening stage. Im looking to remove all of the shiners but no more than that. Im hoping to take her for a test run in the next couple of days.


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## Slyy

Stef - thanks for sharing. This thread (not that it wasn't already) has turned into a veritable font of saw information. I really appreciate all real world experience being tossed out here!


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## summerfi

Chuck - That looks like a dandy saw, one anyone would be happy to own. It's a pity the medallion broke, but hey, it happens. Don't come down on yourself too hard. You're certainly not the first to bugger a saw screw. I've done it too. Judging by the appearance of the screw end in the nut, it may have been broken before you started loosening it. It doesn't look like a fresh break. These old saw screws are sometimes quite fragile.

One thing I've learned over the years is that if something can be made, it can usually be re-made. Don't give up on the medallion just yet. My advice would be take it to a jeweler and have them silver solder a new 8-32 screw back on. You will likely need a new nut because that one appears shot, plus I believe most of the old screws were more like an 8-24 thread, but could be just random depending on what the maker had available. If you need a new nut, I'll give you one of my homemade ones. Let us know how you proceed, and I'd sure like to see more pictures of that saw.

Stef - Sounds like a nice job you're doing on that No. 7.


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## summerfi

Split-nuts: The Next Generation. Sounds like some weird sci-fi movie doesn't it? All I can say is, I'm sure glad I don't have to make these things for a living. I'd be starving.

So here we have a 1/2" and a 9/16" split nut screw and a 15/16" blank medallion. I needed the medallion for a saw I'm restoring. I figured out how to solder a square shoulder on these, but it takes a lot of time and I'm not sure it's worth it. Still, it's an advancement over the previous generation and one more lesson learned.


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## Slyy

Length of effort not withstanding those are some damn nice attempts there Bob! If I've followed your previous posts, the blank end and threaded for are adorned from one piece? Then you are taking a fenestrated square brass piece (maybe even just a square nut?) and threading or sliding that over the screw shaft and soldering it in place?

Incidentally, nice setup on the third pic. Attention to detail (in the making and showing off!) is where it's at!


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## Mosquito

I think I've finally decided to part ways with my Lie-Nielsen 8PPI cross cut panel saw. I've had it about a year, and not used it anywhere near enough. It's still sharp, perfectly straight, and I've got the original box still too. I'm doing a shop clean out before moving, and since I've gotten rip and crosscut Disston D-7's, the LN is kind of redundant now. Always stored with the tooth guard on.

Anyone interested in it? If not, it'll probably hit eBay/craigslist later this week.


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## summerfi

Jake - Thanks for the comments. The threaded portion goes about 2 threads deep into the head. Then I square up an 8-32 brass hex nut and thread it on. Then solder the whole joint. The touchiest part is getting a couple of threads into the head, which is only about 1/8" thick, without breaking through.


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## TobyC

It's always traumatic when you snap your nuts off.


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## DanKrager

Toby, you and Stef tradin' places? That was HIS line…Oh well, I guess somebody had to do it.
DanK


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## racerglen

There is medication for that, at least I'm told that
;-)


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## Tim457

Mos, not really in the market for it, but it looks nice. Didn't you list some other tools on ebay? What's your username so we can drive some traffic?


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## Mosquito

I listed a pair of saws, and a single saw. The single saw sold, and the pair are still there
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Disston-D-8-Handsaws-Rip-X-Cut-/271366503289?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f2eb43b79

I may be listing a few other things as well soon. Might see if I can get rid of a few planes, some auger bits and some braces.


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## Wally331

Bob those Split nuts are gorgeous, I had thought about doing that too and still having the thread go all the way through(not just two threads deep) where did you get square brass nuts? I was thinking that if you have a cheap tap to experiment on you could make like a bull nose tap, with no or a very little taper at the start. That may be easier then using a normal tapered tap. Dunno if that would work but it may be worth a shot.

Was your medallion made of solid bar stock? Did you have to order a whole foot of 15/16 brass? For my medallions I am thinking that I will cast them, flatten the back either by milling or perhaps just with a file, and then solder them to one of my normal split nuts. Do you think that if I cast a small square on the back of my brass medallion that I could drill and tap and still have it be strong enough? As of right now I am not too familiar with cast brass so it should be an interesting experience.

Btw my jig for slicing off the split nuts is really simple, just a block of wood with a hole drilled in it the same size as my bar stock, then two set screws to hold it tight while a saw. I use the side of the block as a guide for my hacksaw. To get consistent thickness I have a block of wood with a notch cut into it that is the thickness of the nut I want to create plus the kerf the hacksaw creates. I just hold that "depth gauge" against my block and slide the bar into the notch.

I am going to see if my schools metal bandsaw is sharp at all tomorrow. Chances are it wont be haha. I almost finished drawing my medallion in cad, so I need to start collecting scrap brass for casting


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## summerfi

Wally - I used hex brass nuts and squared them up on the disk sander. I've seen square brass nuts, I believe on Amazon, but they wouldn't be any advantage because you'd still have to sand them down to size. Hex are available at HD or Lowes.

I use a bottoming tap on the heads. It still has a tiny taper on the end though, so I was thinking of grinding another tap down so the cutting portion is square on the end.

The medallion was cut off a piece of 3" long 1" round stock, and then turned down to 15/16 on the disk sander. I got it on ebay. BTW, I've found that ebay, Onlinemetals.com, and Amazon all generally beat McMaster Carr's price on brass.

I'm glad you're exploring the idea of casting medallions. It's something I wish I was set up to do. Yes, I think if you cast a square nib on the back of the medallion you could drill and tap it, and it would be plenty strong. I would cast it a little oversize to make the drilling/tapping easier, and then finish it with a file. But, if you're going to do that, why not just cast the entire screw on the back? That's how the old ones were made. I'm told that in lost-wax casting you can get sufficient detail to even rough cast the threads and then clean them up with a die.

On the subject of casting, I've been wishing someone would begin to cast reproductions of all the old saw medallions. That would be a great help to someone who breaks or loses a medallion or acquires a saw missing its medallion. Maybe you'd like to give that a try once you get the casting down pat.

Post a picture of your medallion once you finish drawing it up. I'd love to see it. Another thing I've been thinking about is etching (I'm sure you have too). I have an etch drawn up and have begun collecting supplies, but it's down on the priority list right now.


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## 69BBNova

My 14" brass back Disston No. 5 (has an 1896-1917 Medallion) came in a today…

I wasn't sure I was going to buy it (wondered for 2 months), but I knew if I didn't I'd regret it…

Needs work on the teeth but no big deal, but it is dead straight so I'm very pleased with it.


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## TobyC

Gorgeous! 5s are hard to find, 4s are everywhere. How much? We must assess the suckage!!


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## 69BBNova

I hate to say because I paid quite a premium I think…

After two months of looking at it I forked over $160…

I hope the rustifacation Gods don't make me suffer too much…lol










Just for fun I figured I post a pic of my d8s. the etchs are visible on all, just not in this photo.










My 16" No.4 the etch is there just not in the photo, flash screwed it up.

It seems I love to show off my saws.


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## Slyy

Nova - showing is half the fun here, seeing is the other! Carry on!


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## chrisstef

Gorgeous nova.

Your collection spurns a question ive had in my head for a while.

What would you guys consider a full till of saws for the hobby woodworker? This would run the gamet from full size handsaws down to fine toothed dovetail saws. Ppi included.


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## chrisstef

Finished the 7. Im pleased. Tracks the best out of anything ive sharpened to date. Kerf might be a little wide due to existing set but that will come out over time.


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## summerfi

Looking excellent there Stef!


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## summerfi

So I have an off-the-wall trivia question for any of you who may be history buffs. Whenever you see an image of an eagle on a saw, be it a medallion, an etch, or a stamp, and be it an American made saw or a British saw produced for export to America, the eagle's wings are always (except for one example that I'll mention in a moment) pointed downwards. That is, the wing tips are always below a horizontal line through the center of the eagle. This appears to be a passive or resting posture. Here are examples:










On the other hand, whenever you see an eagle on a government seal, a corporate logo, a civic organization logo, school logo, etc., the wings are nearly always pointed up in a more aggressive fighting or flying posture. This is not always the case, but probably true about 95% of the time. Even such benign organizations as a child's daycare facility and a Christian school display the aggressive eagle. Here are examples of that:










The one example I've found of a bird on a saw with its wings up is the Phoenix Warranted saw, and while the bird looks a lot like an eagle, I would contend it is actually the legendary Phoenix bird. In this case, instead of rising from ashes, it is rising from a crown, and I assume this is symbolic of the rebirth of sawmaking, formerly a British monopoly, in America.










So, my question is, why this difference? Is there something historically meaningful about the position of an eagle's wings that I'm unaware of? Or, alternatively, is it just that sawmakers, by their nature, were a passive lot? Silly question I know, but hey, it's winter and I have to keep my brain occupied somehow.


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## TobyC

May have something to do with heraldry or Freemasonry.


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## TobyC

Don't forget these…










There were variations of that also.










Way too many to post here.

There has also been discussions about right and left facing eagle heads on saws during times of war and peace.


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## ColonelTravis

summerfi - that is an observant observation you observed there. There's a term for this kind of thing called heraldry.

The soaring eagle is used when you don't want your 5th graders or astronauts or scouts to be menacing, badasses. Other marginal changes - at least in the U.S. - usually don't matter, like whether the head is turned to the right or left. Maybe it does in other countries where this kind of design has been around for centuries longer.

I don't know crap about saws but I read this thread and maybe one day I will.


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## summerfi

So two votes for heraldry. It seems there may be more to this than just a bunch of passive saw makers. Colonel, thanks for the informative link. For those who haven't read it, here's what I've taken from it. All sorts of animals, including eagles, were used as symbols in heraldry. When an eagle is shown with wings either up or down, this is called a "displayed" pose. If the wings are up, it is further referred to as "elevated". If the wings are down, it is called "inverted". Now the interesting part (at least to me). The inverted pose is typical of English armory, while the elevated pose is typical of Continental (i.e. American) armory. So bottom line, just like nibs, beech handles, handle profile, etc., American saw makers were slow to break from their British roots and traditions. The wings down eagles are one more example of the influence of Britain on saw making in America. Perhaps the bird on the Phoenix saw, shown defiantly with wings up and rising from a crown, is a significant symbolic step in the breaking of that tradition. Who would have ever thought the simple saw could be so interesting when you look into it deeper?

Now I'll have to look at elephants, kangaroos, lambs, lynxes, flying greyhounds and the rest of the saw animals to see what their positions mean!


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## terryR

Bob, that's an intriguing topic. The first explanation that reaches my eyes is limited space on the Medallions. Upreaching wings would limit the room for My Tool Works, Ltd. Or make the eagle quite small? Plus, correct me if wrong, those eagle medallions are very old. Probably made by less accurate machines, or hand held tooling? Those modern images were all designed and printed via computer. 12,000 dpi or something very high.

As a side note, I'm a Native American buff, and always pay close attention to the appearance of arrow shafts. As a Native, arrow heads pointing up is a sign of aggresion, down is peace. I mention that because a lot of those eagles above are clutching an olive branch in one foot, and arrows in the other. Especially the President's and Dept of State! Notice the arrow heads ALL pointing up! 

On the old medallions, the eagles appear to be clutching a fist full of arrows, but pointing aimlessly in all directions. Times have changed! LOL

Stef, congrat, bud! Those cuts are awesome, and when I put on my glasses, I can almost see your filed teeth.  There's just no hope of me ever filing teeth smaller than 12 ppi. I'm counting on you guys for those since my eyes are aging worse than my Disstons…


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## Slyy

Dude, this thread gets better and better! Saw restorations, sharpening tutorials, bad-A homemade saws, discussions of split nuts, making medallions, discussions of heraldry, what's more to like! Keep up the strong work men!


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## Tim457

I agree. Good stuff, good history, good saws, and craftsmanship guys.

Terry, don't worry about bad eyesight, that's what keeps you from knowing if you've messed the teeth up. That's what I'm sticking with anyway.


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## BigRedKnothead

Got my shipment from our up and coming saw maker. Wally saws for your viewing pleasure.



















-
They have a nice custom toolmaker feel. They saw nice and true. Good stuff.


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## theoldfart

OK Red , you suck!! Kudo's to Wally


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## ToddJB

Wow. Those are beautiful, Wally. You have good taste, Red.


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## CL810

Red do those handles feel anything close to how good they look?? Wally you are doing some magic.


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## BigRedKnothead

As I told Wally, the backsaw handle is just wonderful. Fits my hand perfect. Even LN doesn't completely smooth/round over the handle….which makes a big difference for comfort imo.

The grip on the panel saw is a bit small for my big hands, but very nicely shaped. They have a custom toolmaker look/feel to them, which is cool.

Only because Wally asked for feedback, I told him he has some room to improve on fit/finish and sharpening (don't we all). But I almost don't believe these were made by a dude in HS(maybe wally has an interwebz alter ego…lol).
He's gonna be a pretty special toolmaker if he sticks with it.


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## Slyy

Wow, those Wally's look absolutely stunning. Shop class done did him good I'd say!!

Incidentally Red, thought I saw you "resurfaced" the bench, remembered you said just put some danish oil on there? It seems shinier than usual in the first pic of the Wally's.


----------



## terryR

Those saws look stunning, Red. Congrats!

And, awesome work, Wally!


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Jake- The top pic is my joinery bench. It is finished with satin poly to protect if from oils etc. The bottom pic is my roubo workbench. It's the one I recently flattened and finished with danish oil.

I maybe should have asked Wally's permission before I posted a pic of his saws on my facebook. I've got a couple friends asking where they can buy one


----------



## Airframer

Red- Those are some sexy saws! Wally! You have big things ahead of you! It is great to see young men such as yourself doing great things like this. Maybe there is hope for this country after all ;-)


----------



## Brit

Stef - You did an awesome job on that No.7. It gets a hell of a lot easier now. )

Red - Congrats on the Wally saws.


----------



## Airframer

In other news.. My training wheels have arrived!

A Dunlop saw sharpening jig.














































It has adjustments for Rake and Angle and even came with an old file (which is basically dead lol). I feel a bit more confident I might be able to sharpen a saw without destroying it now 

Just waiting on my jointer file holder to arrive from LV and we will be in business.


----------



## Brit

Good luck Eric. I'm interested to hear what you think of that Dunlop once you've put it through its paces.


----------



## terryR

+1 on wanting to know the training wheels work!

I cannot believe a modern version isn't made…everyone uses one for the chainsaw.

I have the utmost respect for you guys that can sharpen free hand, but would still pay for a sweet set of training wheels from LV that could help me produce perfect results…just sayin'


----------



## Brit

Terry - I'm not knocking the training wheels as Eric calls it, but having seen your work and knowing what you're capable of, if you learnt to sharpen on larger teeth, you would be able to sharpen smaller teeth through feel alone. Channel the 'force'. LOL.


----------



## summerfi

I saw one of those devices for $5 at a local 2nd hand shop this week and thought about buying it. It wasn't a Dunlap but an off brand that I can't remember now. Then I thought, no, I don't want any crutches, I want to do this on my own. If anyone wants it I could pick it up and mail it to you though. I do believe nearly anyone can learn to file saws "freehand" given the knowledge and practice.


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## Airframer

There seems to be the freehand vs jig discussion in nearly everything with an edge (chisel, planes, saws) I simply don't understand how a tool that allows quick consistent results is considered a crutch and why free hand sharpening is the bees knees?

I have a 7 month old.. I get 30 mins a day (if that at all) to mess around in the shop now. I have saws that need to be sharp… anything that will shave a few months of trial and error off getting those sharp I am all for.


----------



## donwilwol

Is it really that much different than the one LV sells?

edit, referring to Erics jig.


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## chrisstef

I second what Andys got to say. Start on a big ole 4 ppi rip saw and youll get feel for it no problem. The biggest issue i had on my first few saws was getting the file in the right gullet but once you get that down its smooth sailin.


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## Airframer

Don - The difference would be the way it rides the saw at a right angle to the blade and holds the file in the correct position for you rather than you watching a bubble or square while moving the file.

I'm not knocking freehand sharpening but I have found it an exercise in frustration to try and maintaining the correct angle for it while trying to sharpen chisels and plane irons. I have ruined more bevels than I care to admit trying to be cool enough to sharpen freehand. Anything I can find that will make that part of woodworking easier I am all for. I just want my tools to work so I can use them to make stuff. I can't remember anyone ever looking at a beautifully crafted piece of furniture and said "I bet he sharpens freehand"

And I have to apologize a bit but my snarky pants are on this morning…. the boy hasn't let me sleep in weeks..


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## donwilwol

I tried the same type of sharpener sharpening chain saws. They may work for you but I fund them harder to operate then free hand. If it works for you, by all means use it, but I'll bet you find it one of those things that looks good on paper, but reality proves different. Let us know.


----------



## theoldfart

I'm with Eric on this one. Get proficient with the jig, then muscle memory will kick in and freehand will evolve.

It seems, and please do not misinterpret this comment, a lot of folks with a bit of experience advocate only freehand sharpening, dovetailing, ripping etc. when someone posts about using guides. I still use a guide to sharpen since all of my attempts to freehand plane blades have been unsatisfactory. My preference would be to encourage ALL methods when someone makes a post about their direction.

I'm not looking to post flame bait here, just verbalizing an observation


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## TobyC

Just like training wheels on a bike, in the long run they will just hold you back. You can't really ride with them on, but when you take them off you're free and can really have some fun!


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## summerfi

Sorry if anyone took offense at anything I said, as I meant no harm. I'm a pragmatist, and I believe in doing whatever works. Freehand filing works best for me, but if someone else prefers another method, there's nothing at all wrong with that. The objective is getting a good sharp saw that cuts properly.


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## CL810

have a 7 month old.. I get 30 mins a day

30 minute's in Eric time equals 4 hours in human time.


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## theoldfart

Bob, no offense was taken on my part. The last sentence in your posting says it all for me as well. Someday my shaky hands will get it right! Cheers

Edit, BTW Bob please keep doing those fantastic posts of yours. I hope someday my grandkids kids will talk about me in the same way you speak of your family.


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## Brit

I agree with Bob. As someone once said (can't remember who) "It's not so much perfect teeth you'er after, it's perfect sawing." Don't matter two hoots how you get there.


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## Slyy

Well figure I'd throw a pic in here, we haven't had one in a few posts. Just picked up my first thumbhole, $2 was sitting outside in a pile of other rusty saws (also grabbed an Atkins crosscut). This one appears to be circa WWII based on the medallion, looks like it's filled rip 5 1/2.
Should clean up nice I think, hopefully a decent etch is hiding under there.


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## chrisstef

Congrats jake. A $2 thumby is gloatable for sure.


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## Airframer

Boy I was in a right mood this morning. I wasn't trying to offend anyone or come off as nasty it just happened that way (a total of 9 hours of sleep over 5 days will do that.. )

I simply am curious as to why free hand is superior to jigs? I really am curious. I feel like there is a secret I am missing of some kind. The only advantage I see is the lack of setup time but in my case that is negated by the re-sharpening time I have to put in after I screw up the item freehand lol.

But like was said.. as long as it gets sharp right? I still haven't used the jig yet and I imagine Don may be right about it being kinda a pain (mostly having to advance it with each tooth) but I think it will allow me to get some saws sharp now and I can learn how to go at it freehand later when more time is available for failure.

Oh and Jake… YOU SUCK!


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## Slyy

Stef - Lucky score, I imagine there aren't too many of these lying around Oklahoma.

Airframer - I was worried we'd have to put the sign up at the entrance to this thread, you know this one:









Oh and:









Carry on…..


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## theoldfart

Great score Jake. Should be a great saw when your done with it.


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## Brit

Is freehand sharpening superior?

Probably not in my opinion if you are just considering the way the finished saw cuts. Some people would say that a hand sharpened saw cuts better than a machine or jig sharpened saw because the minute differences between the teeth somehow make for a better cutting saw. Personally, I can't see how that can be true.

I imagine freehand sharpening is quicker though and you probably get a better sense of satisfaction at the end of it, but apart from that I can't think of any other advantages.


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## TobyC

Jake, it might just be the pic, or that might be progressive pitch.


----------



## theoldfart

Toby, did they offer the progressive pitch as a regular item?


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## donwilwol

I hope I'm not coming across as telling anyone what to do either. Its just been my experience that in the end, free hand always seems to be better for me. With the jigs, everything has to be precise, from end to end and from time to time. It just never ends up that way for me.


----------



## Brit

Congrats Jake. $2 for a thumbhole is a bargain. Looks like it will clean up ok too.


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## donwilwol

$2 thumbhole. Gloat worthy!


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## Slyy

It does kinda appear that way Stef. I know the first few inches have a progressive tooth pattern cut into it from toe to heel.


----------



## Tim457

I think saw sharpening is a little more forgiving than things like chisels or plane irons. If you're off by a degree or two with a saw file it's really not a big deal. That tooth or a few just has a little less or more fleam, rake, whatever but it will still cut pretty well. If you're off by a degree or two with a chisel or plane iron each time you set it on the stone after checking the bevel then you're going to have a really messed up bevel and a hard time getting it sharp.

So use a jig if it makes you faster. If you have enough time to master freehand you'll save time somewhere down the line, but life's too short to worry about stuff like that. This is a hobby after all, do it the way you enjoy it.

Edit: oh and nice score Jake.


----------



## chrisstef

Im gonna toss my hat in the mix on the jig. It should give you perfect results if it works correctly. The problem is that old saws are rarely filed perfect when you get them. Now im just a rook dog here but in the couple of saws ive done ive had to bias my file in one direction or another to get the results im lookin for. I could most certainly be filing incorrectly too lol. Sometimes ill give a tooth a lil more or less rake purposely. I dunno if the jig will allow for any movement one or if its pretty rigid. Im interested in the results Eric. I do think it would be a great aide for creating fleam though.

I also hope lil buddy goes off sleep strike for ya. Those are tough nights bro.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Re: freehand sharpening. It's okay Eric. Sometimes my thong gets in a knot too.

I can't speak to saws because I haven't embarked. I getting decent at freehand with planes. Not because I think it's superior, or because I give two rats booty hairs about impressing others…...it's just saves some time over setting up the jig. 
If it works for you…go with it. I pretty sure I never would learned what a proper edge was without a honing jig.


----------



## TobyC

Kevin,

Early Disstons had it from the factory, and a Disston could be ordered with any reasonable tooth pattern you wanted. I've seen them both ways, progressive and all the same. I've also seen pictures of a few that had smaller teeth for the first 10 inches or so and I was told that they came that way.


----------



## DonBroussard

@Slyy-Nice catch on the thumbie! And for just $2! My wish for you is a nice clean etching and no pitting on the plate. Post pics of her all cleaned up and ready to go to work when you're done.


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## Slyy

Don - an etch is under there, I could just make out Phildelphia and some hints at more etch. As rusty as she was, it was not very deep so I'm quite hopeful it will come out nice!

Brit et al - is anyone still using and liking the Veritas file holding jig? It still seems like a much better and repeatable way then using a hand cut piece of wood with a hole drilled in it or something similar.


----------



## TobyC

I've never used a jig.


----------



## chrisstef

I use it jake. Personally, i like it. It gives me reference points. Haven tried goin freestyle but it took me about 3 years to freehand a chisel. Eventually ill try it.


----------



## robertb574

I am using the Veritas file holding jig. I liked the piece of wood with a hole in it. It was bit more comfortable. The comfort factor was not big enough against the convenience of one adjustable jig versus a bunch of pieces of wood with holes and markings on them.


----------



## Brit

Sly - The Veritas file holder works fine. The only thing you have to watch for is that the fleam guide doesn't slip from the angle you've set it to as it is not possible to lock it very tightly. Just put it down carefully so you don't knock it. I prefer a piece of wood because it is lighter and there's more feefback, but I'll keep using the Veritas file holder because of the convenience factor.


----------



## Slyy

Stef, Robert, Brit - appreciate the feedback. It certainly seems like it would help with the repeat ability factor if anything else. Seriously considering picking one up.


----------



## summerfi

This is my Spear & Jackson rip saw after restoration. This saw prompted me to make my first post on Lumberjocks a few months ago, and it is the one that piqued my interest in collecting British-made saws. It took so long to complete the restoration because I first needed to learn how to make acceptable split nuts. I want to thank and acknowledge Matt, who sometimes posts on Lumberjocks, for graciously providing the medallion for this saw. I owe him a medallion for his Disston one son saw, so if anyone knows where I might get one please let me know.

The saw is 28" long and is filed in it's original configuration of 4 ppi rip, graduating to 5 ppi near the toe. This is also one of the first saws I used for learning to sharpen. The plate is pitted, but all in all it is a grand old saw - not bad for a $3 investment.




























And here the saw is with it's S&J little brother that I've posted pictures of before. I call them grandpa and junior.


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## summerfi

This is a J. Taylor & Son crosscut saw I've just completed a restoration on. It came to me missing the main medallion and all saw screws except for one small British Warranted Superior medallion. I believe it probably had all medallions for the screws when it was new. It has a nice wide 26" plate, and interestingly it is filed crosscut at 11 ppi. That seems like an awfully fine tooth pitch for a saw this big, but I know it is original because the 11 is stamped just below the maker's mark. I really like this saw and I believe it has found it's way onto my favorites list.


----------



## Don2Laughs

I've been trying to get this saw sharpening business down so it will serve me rather than frustrate me so….after several months of struggling to get it right….ran the gamut with saw vises, files and lighting….then I started & developed a dialogue with Isaac Blackburn and got this http://www.blackburntools.com/new-tools/new-saws-and-related/rakemaker-ii/index.html which IS the 'bees knees' that helped me develop the muscle memory, hand/eye coordination and confidence to get my saws in shape. I'm able to do my rip saws w/o jig now but still use the jig for XC and don't care who doesn't like it…..my objective has been achieved. Once the saws are sharpened, they stay sharp a good long time…..so I keep my little jig handy so I don't have to wonder if I lost muscle memory or 'eye' for the right fleam. I can appreciate that some folks live & breath 'saws'....and pride themselves in their abilities to restore & sharpen them but I just use them. And I much prefer the vintage saws I've restored to the retail offerings I've seen.


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## Brit

Bob - Those saws are all a delight to behold. I love my S&J.

Don2Laughs - Good for you. Isaac is a great guy and a very talented saw maker.


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## TobyC

Don,

His name is Isaac Smith.


----------



## Slyy

Bob - I'm still just as jealous of those beautiful handles I was when you first posted pics of them! I'd have to say that they all turned out exceptional, great work!


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## terryR

Bob, those are fantastic saws! You do very nice work. You give new meaning to a 'saw restoration' by sharpening the teeth, repairing the tote admirably, and even making split nuts! Awesome. Those saws were lucky YOU found 'em.


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## summerfi

You're making me blush Terry. Thank you all for the kind words. It is a labor of love.


----------



## ColonelTravis

I have no decent saw and I think I should have at least a decent little back saw. So I watched a Tyzack 120 on eBay and then forgot about it and then noticed it sold for $36, and I kicked myself because it was the one with the elephant on it, brass back, it's just a neat looking saw. I may be wrong but don't those typically go for a lot more than $36?


----------



## Slyy

Was it similar to this one ColT?









This particular one was my Grandfathers, not really sure about when it was purchased but I'm reasonably sure it was shortly after my dad's birth (so early 50's). He had a set of them, two smaller dovetail saws and the no 120 tenon saw. They are all very nice tools, very heavy backed, though you can tell the Tyzack artisans were no longer making fancy handles and medallions by that time. Still has all brass nuts but the medallion is plastic (I think).
Just for reference sake, here's a shot of its original sleeve (non legible price sticker still attached).


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## Don2Laughs

Thanks Toby, for correcting me….it IS Isaac Smith, owner of BlackBurn Tools. 
Thanks Andy.


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## ColonelTravis

Yeah Jake - that was it. The medallion was the same, didn't know what it was made of. Looking for that kind of saw, doesn't need to be the brand but I do like the elephant.


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## Brit

Seems to me that anything with a brass back goes for a decent amount of money in the US. Ideally, to get a decent W. Tyzack, Sons & Turner, you have to go back a bit further than the No.120. Look for something like these:

Brass Back









Steel Back


















The No120 was made after Tyzacks stopped caring about quality and more about their bottom line. That isn't to say that they won't cut wood though. The steel is good. They have a very heavy brass back, which some people like, some don't. The handle is a 4 finger grip rather than the traditional 3 finger grip shown on the saws above and totally machine made. It is also thinner than the old handles and to me at least, feels a bit sloppy in the hand.

Here's the No.120 handle alongside the handle found on the saws above:



















I reshaped the handle on my No.120 and you can read about it here if you're interested. This is how it turned out. It is a lot more comfortable, but you can only do so much.


----------



## terryR

Yeah, I bought one of those Tyzack 120's, too. I was quite disappointed by the plastic washer behind the medallion, and the tote feels as bad as it looks to my hands.

But, that's an easy fix now that Andy has given me permission to replace it altogether! LOL.

When I can acquire an older Tyzack, I'll have more historical respect for the original tote, I promise.


----------



## TobyC

"Bloody butchers apron"


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## Tim457

Bob those turned out awesome. The handle on that Spear and Jackson is really nice.


----------



## ColonelTravis

Great info, Andy, much obliged.


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## BigRedKnothead

Planning on making a split nut driver with one of the sweet handles TerryR sent me.










Kicking around using a copper ferrule (plumbing fitting) instead of brass. Just looks nice with the wood. I know TFWW has one, but it annoys me to pay $9 to ship a small driver bit. We'll see.

Also in the pic is a file handle he made. It's a work of art on my fav rasp. Terry's the man.


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## upchuck

BigRedKnothead-I use copper pipe and plumbing fittings frequently for ferrules. Files, chisels, knives, anything that might put some stress on the wood/metal connection gets some type of ferrule. I have a cigar box full of ferrule stock. Most of it is ammunition brass (I love .50 brass), but there is a weird assortment of copper, bronze, and stainless steel pieces and pipes and whatnots.

When I made my split nut screwdriver I was hard pressed to find anything to use for the blade. My second split nut saw had very thin slots for the blade to fit in. I cut up a piece of old useless handsaw plate and made a dozen or so scrapers and a blade for my screwdriver. The thickness of the saw plate was lapped to fit the slots of the nuts snuggly. I filed the sides to fit the nuts and filed then stoned a notch in the tip for the screw.

LN has split nut screwdrivers for $30. Mine cost me less than 30 cents.

chuck


----------



## summerfi

I used a copper ferrule on my split nut driver - looks great, works great. What are you going to use for the blade? I used a piece of heavy bandsaw blade off my sawmill. It's thin and fits the slots nicely but is also tough. Those handles are fantastic. Nice work Terry.


----------



## Wally331

Those saws are absolutely gorgeous Bob, it seems like you and Andy need to have a saw restore off. I can't get enough of those old spear and jacksons. You J. Taylor & Sons turned out quite nice too.

I wish I was a better turner haha, I think I just am too lazy to learn to sharpen lathe tools well. I want to turn some handles for saw files this weekend if I get the chance. I need to make some smaller chisels for spine mortising as well.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Ya, that pic doesn't do Terry's handles justice. I don't have a lathe. If I got one it would just be to turn tool handles and plane knobs. I'm not into the styles of furniture that have turnings.

Hey, what about using a 1/2 spade bit like this guy? 








ohhh….ahhhh

After that I plan to make a set of screwdrivers with the LV shanks. I'll have to make them octagonal or triangular being lathe-less.


----------



## terryR

Thanks, guys.

Ooh, I love the one Red posted above! I need another size than my Gramercy…


----------



## summerfi

Wally - No restore off for me. Andy is well beyond my league. He's the supreme ruler of saw restoring.

There's a cool split nut driver on ebay right now, but at $30 starting bid it's a little rich for my taste.


----------



## summerfi

Red - Here's the driver I made a while back. I was in a hurry and didn't want to take the time to turn one on the lathe, so I just used a square blank and sanded it octagonal on the disk sander. If you want to try the bandsaw blade let me know and I'll send you a piece.


----------



## Slyy

All this talk of split nuts is making my abdomin sore.
All the talk of screwdrivers makes me want some vodka and OJ, or maybe this instead:









(almost out!!!!!!)

So on that note: my disston d-8 thumbhole!

















The handle was in a bad way. I really loved the way my D-100 turned out, but it was a mostly loved and cared for tool. This poor gal was likely sitting outside in the Oklahoma weather (for those not from here, imagine dry and 100 Wednesday, 8 and 3' of snow the next Friday) for a couple years at least. The wood was really quite terrible. After some sanding and a few coats of BLO I realized this tote would need some boning. No real bone available so I used some scrap mahogany (didn't want something REALLY hard anyways) and basically rubbed the tote to compress the frayed fibers and give a smother edge to the ragged wood. This tote would need way more sanding than I want to give it to bring it back to anything much nicer otherwise (want to keep some character still). 
Also the rust over the area of the etch was worse than I thought, I can tell it's there, can read "Philadelphia" "Disston and Sons" and see some of the keystone mark but it's still fairly well buried in there. Overall, as poor condition this was, I'm quite happy with the results, plus have a nice thumbhole rip saw to put to work in the shop!


----------



## BigRedKnothead

I appreciate the offer Bob. I like the looks of yours, but I've got a beat up spade bit I'm gonna try tomorrow. I'll let you guys know how it turns out.

Oklahoma is gonna have a rust deficiency by the time Jake is done


----------



## Wally331

Well considering that everyone is posting their split nut drivers I may as well post mine. London pattern for torque.


----------



## Slyy

Anyone else feel like Wally's just showing off now? 

Red - if I had my way, you might be right


----------



## jordanp

Problem is wally doesn't have to even try to show off and he also has every right to show off hehe.


----------



## Slyy

Tru-nuff, that boy got some skills


----------



## GMatheson

Here is the only picture of my split nut driver. Think I take first place for the ugliest










But seeing all these nice ones makes me want to make a new one


----------



## BigRedKnothead

^ just cut that shaft off that one and make ya a new handle ehh?


----------



## GMatheson

That's the plan Red. Make it look all snazzy like the one you posted earlier.


----------



## Brit

Can I play?

Take one old turnscrew (great steel) of appropriate size and length.









Saw off the end.









Shape to fit. I made the slot deeper after this photo was taken.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

^hehehe…Andy, yours came up when I was searching for ideas. Great score with the vintage.

I'm glad Terry said something about needing another size than the gramercy. The 1/2" spade bit won't fit on my dovetail saw. Guess I'll be making two today


----------



## chrisstef

Looks like ill add another tool to the list. Needs me one of them split nut driver jammies. Started derusting a no name, made in usa, 10" dovetail saw last night. This will be a quick hitter. Teeth are worn down to little nubbins (Red) which will allow me to see how steady my hand is when I get to sharpening it.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Po' boy way to sand and polish without a lathe. Cut the head off a screw or bolt and thread it in the wood. 








-
Metal working isn't really my thing, but I like how they turned out. Forgot to take a before pic of the gnarly spade bits but you get the picture. 

















-
I epoxied the copper ferrules (plumbing 3/4" end caps) before drilling. This was good practice for the screwdrivers I want to make. Anyway, I had a little trouble drilling centered even after tapping a dent with a punch. Gonna have to find a solution for that.


----------



## Slyy

Red - looking good! Now I gotta go find me a split nut saw to have a good excuse to try my hand at making a driver!


----------



## summerfi

Red those look great. Really nice job.


----------



## Brit

Very nice job Red. Me likey.


----------



## ToddJB

Great job, Red. I have a few gnarly bits that this might just fit the bill for. Thanks for the inspiration.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Thanks guys. I don't always enjoy doing metal work, but I will say it's more fun when your making a tool My OCD kicked in and I had to file until I had each prong identical.

Todd those bits were ugly but they got a lot of love from that 3M deburring wheel we've talked about.

I think Terry said the wood is tigerwood. Handsome stuff. I may customize some of my saw handles now. I wonder what LN uses for a finish?


----------



## Armandhammer

With the vintage saws…is there a Disston model that is better than the rest? I'm looking to add a rip and cross cut saw to my tool chest but with so many models and prices all over the place, it's hard for me to judge what's what. I want something that is good quality but not going to break the bank…ugly is ok with me as long as it cuts straight, clean, and fast.


----------



## Slyy

A&H - any of the brass nut Disstons are essentially all great saws, and many can be found in wide range of tooth cuts/patterns and conditions of course. The Disstonian Institute website has great references for figuring out what saw is what. If you've looked through most of this thread, you've probably seen that many of these saws were found for mere dollars, in horrible condition usually, but what is that to someone with the knowledge for restoration? Finding a dollar Disston is certainly within the realm of possibility, it just takes time to look and the time to rehab it back to the world of the living! Hope that helps a bit, lots of great minds here to help you!!


----------



## summerfi

Makes me want to cry! Would you give $1.71 for this antique British-made Moulson Brothers hand saw? So would I. That's what it sold for today on ebay.uk. I contacted the seller for a shipping estimate and he came back with 40 British pounds or about $65. That makes it cost prohibitive, at least for me.










This brass backed S&J sold today for $5.25. I didn't contact this seller, but it would likely have been the same story. I see a lot of really neat tools selling on ebay.uk for what I would call relatively cheap prices. Sure wish I could find a work around for the steep shipping costs. I get the impression that old tools aren't in as high demand in the UK as they are here in the US. Andy, what say you?


----------



## bandit571

A&H:









I bought this last year, at a Lutheran Center thrift store, for ( wait for it..) $1. A Disston D-8 with a nice etch. Just a cleaning of the plate, and ashined up the brass. Handle was crack free, too.


----------



## Armandhammer

Dang. I'm hoping to hit up some antique and thrift/junk stores this weekend. I know antiques shops probably aren't the best bet but I figure can't hurt to look. I doubt I'd ever get so lucky though. I'll end up paying a lot more I'm sure if I want to get a quality saw in my hands.


----------



## bandit571

Antique "mall" just up the street from me has a BARREL full of full length handsaws, for $3 each. There are a few others scattered around in other stalls, range is $5 to $7.


----------



## racerglen

Do you feel the NEED Bandit ?
But dang it it is fun to look through that stuff, even if it turns out to be 60's saws left under a downspout isn't it !


----------



## terryR

That makes me cry, too, Bob!

Yeah, Red, that Tigerwood looks nice with copper! You guys got me motivated to start another split nut driver…need it for these narrow-a$$ slots on this T.Shelton & Sons tote. Now, that I can get them loose, think I'll saw the slots larger using a jig you guys have posted lately!










(Spent most the day at the dentist, but got one ADDED today for the first time…MY ppi is going up!) 
LOL


----------



## summerfi

Congrats on the ppi count Terry. I get to do that next Monday.


----------



## JustJoe

has anyone priced the cost of postage from the UK to here? I order books from a british bookseller (The Book Depository) and postage is included - even on a book that might only cost $8. I wonder what their rates are for heavier stuff.


----------



## summerfi

Joe, there may be a cheaper international rate for books similar to the media rate in the US. For any tools I've looked at buying in the UK, the shipping cost has been so high that I gave up.


----------



## Slyy

A&H - you just stick around looking long enough and the world of ancient rust will open to my friend, this I promise!

Bob - almost too bad that the demand seems so low, this forum could make dent in that supply I think if it weren't for that dang shipping cost.

Terry - Retired nurse, 32 TPM, progressive filed rip to grind.


----------



## Wally331

Slyy, your D-8 thumbhole turned out really nice, I think I may just have to make one this weekend… 

Anyways, I timed myself today while cutting split-nuts, it took 14 min to cut off 20 slices- (10 of of each side of the bar) I used up 4 inches of the bar stock, or about $4.25 worth of brass. That is enough slices for 3 and a half saws. Overall time to make the nuts including drilling, tapping, sawing, and then cleaning up the threads was about 35 min. I'll solder them all in a big batch to save on fuel.

Also yesterday I filed my Brown's No. 3 made by Disston, best x-cut filing for me yet by far. Feeling pretty good about that for sure. I think it is just when I tooth the plates myself that it is harder to get them all the same size.

Nice split-nut drivers everyone btw, Andy you are lucky to have those turnscrews, very beautiful tools.


----------



## Armandhammer

Yeah…need to be patient. There's a super nice D-12 on ebay right now I'm dying to bid on but I figure it'll go for a pretty penny. How much is a decent for a clean pre-1950's D-12?


----------



## ErikF

I just ordered what should be all my materials needed to make some split nuts, time to become resourceful.

Wally, are you cutting the slices by hand or bandsaw?


----------



## Slyy

Wally - if you did, I can only imagine what magic you would turn out! I wish I had been as motivated or interested in almost anything as you are 10 or 12 years ago when I was your age. This is a hobby I would love to have a decade extra experience in by now!!!


----------



## waho6o9

I think this is Wally's jig ErikF


----------



## ErikF

Is that for cutting the groove in the nut or slicing the rod?


----------



## Slyy

Cutting the slot in the nut Erik.


----------



## terryR

Jake, you're a retired RN, too? Wow, lots of you guys hiding in the background! LOL. Glad to hear you've got more teeth than me…who was it that always said, "If I knew I were going to live this long, I would've taken better care of myself!" Story of my life…

Sorry, I didn't pay better attention to the discussion on making split nuts now…just assumed it was over my head. Now, I'm feeling more confident, and ready to buy a handful of brass, too…

Can Wally or Bob or anyone remind me what type of solder is used to attach the threaded rod to the flat brass disc, or are the brass discs drilled through and the threaded rod soldered in? And, if all this info is stored on a blog already, just point me in the right direction…

Thanks!


----------



## summerfi

Terry, I believe Wally and I are both using regular solder, but our techniques are somewhat different. Silver solder is stronger, but much more expensive (it's real silver), takes higher heat, and I find it more difficult to use.

If I'm correct, Wally bores and threads both ends of the screw, i.e. it's essentially a piece of threaded rod with a split nut on each end. One of the nuts is then soldered to the rod. The way I do it is make a regular split nut for one end, but the hole on the "head" end does not go all the way through. The rod goes about two threads deep into the head, and then I reinforce that with a square shoulder that also prevents the screw from turning in the handle. Those pieces are then soldered.

If you want more info or help as you work through it, don't hesitate to PM me. I've been advising others that way.


----------



## Brit

It isn't the weight that makes postage from the UK to the US prohibitive. It is the size of a 26" saw that puts it in a different price bracket.


----------



## terryR

Thanks, Bob, expect PM's. LOL.

At the moment, I'm sorry I was able to remove the split nuts from this circa.1890's T. Shelton. The shafts are all bent, and quite a bit of the threading is messed up.










They look worse in person. NOW, I'm 100 times more intrigued by making my own! 

Edit…I think the saw dates to 1870's? Will research again…


----------



## summerfi

Andy - thanks for that info. If only those saws would fold up.

Terry - that pic looks fairly typical of the split nuts I've taken apart. Some have been worse. It is a nail biting experience for sure.


----------



## Slyy

Terry - retired? I WISH! At just 31 I'm already going back to school to earn my BSN then moving on to CRNA school! Glutton for punishment I guess!

On taking out/removing the nuts/screws: it's always a scary cr^p shoot taking those out, I am always worried about seeing them like that Terry! Worse still is that sickening *snap* that might follow the first few turns of the screwdriver.


----------



## GMatheson

Wanted to do a quick project so I decided I would upgrade my split nut driver. Cut the shaft off the modified screwdriver I was using and used a Bocote pen plank for the new handle with a little brass ferrule.


----------



## Airframer

So… if split nuts are such a hassle …. what makes them so desireable?


----------



## GMatheson

A while ago I picked up this Robt Sorby saw. It looks like it's had a rough life. The handle is worn but solid. The plate has been chopped down to 9-3/4". One of the split nuts doesn't even have any slot left to remove it.



















My plan is to turn it into a nice little dovetail saw but the 3-1/4" plate depth might be too much and the hang doesn't feel right. I think cutting it down and tapering the plate should help out.

Also does anyone know where I would be able to find information on dating Sorby saws. I have 3 now and one medallion says "trademark kangaroo" and the medallion on the other saws (which look older) says "corporate mark kangaroo"


----------



## Brit

So who is going to start a Split Nut Driver of Your Dreams thread? Only joking. ) Let's not admit to being that sad.


----------



## Slyy

Brit just doesn't want to be the guy to START the thread!! 

Greg - that's can be an interesting project workin through the slot-less split nut!


----------



## terryR

Love the Bocote, Greg!

Turned a handle from Bloodwood for my spade bit driver…ferrule is a brass plumbing fitting cut in 1/2.










...thinking of black paint for the steel?

And have already started another from flat steel!


----------



## GMatheson

I was thinking of just hitting it with the little dremel grinding wheel. Worst case scenario is I destroy it and need to make a new one which shouldn't be that hard with all the instructions shared here.


----------



## lateralus819

Well, picked up 3 back saws.

First up is a R.H. Davis filed for crosscut, paid $25. 









second a spear and jackson. Paid $18 for this guy, the blade is kind of "squiggly" at the tooth line, how do i go about repairing that?









Finally a Simonds, filed rip. Which is good cause i can use it for dovetails hopefully. Paid $20 for this.









Are these decent saws?


----------



## summerfi

Terry that bloodwood made a beautiful handle. Have you thought about bluing the steel?

Nice saws lateralus.


----------



## donwilwol

you guys and your fancy split nut drivers.

remember this

Still going.


----------



## jordanp

Inadvertent find today.
No sought after antiques in the bunch..
But the price was right: free








Mahogany, Walnut, 4pcs apple, 3pcs beechwood









and this wood was thrown in also.


----------



## TobyC

Greg,

Clean the nut and epoxy a hex nut on it to take it off, use a soldiering gun to heat and release the epoxy after you have it off.


----------



## waho6o9

Great score Jordan, congrats!


----------



## Slyy

Jordan - best price there is! Great score!


----------



## dbray45

The reason for the split nuts - maximum thread so they can be tightened and not bottom out. It also allowed the wood for the totes to be tightened as they became loose. Keep in mind that these saws were used before electricity and later where electric or other power was not available, not just in a shop setting.

Tom Laws learned how to sharpen saws at his first job after WWII building the Woodrow Wilson Bridge here in DC, if I remember the story correctly.


----------



## upchuck

TobyC,

Excellent, nondestructive tip on removing problem split nuts. Thanks. I'll remember that one.

chuck


----------



## Tim457

Nice score Jordan. What are the dimensions on the apple and beech? Enough to make saw handles and planes out of? You can practice carving some of those handles into something more comfortable too if you want.


----------



## jordanp

I think the apple is 8-10/4 by 3" and the beechwood is standard 4×4" i believe they are all around 40" i will take a measuring tape to them tonight.


----------



## GMatheson

Thanks TobyC. That's a great idea and I will definitely give it a try.


----------



## CL810

Jordan you lucky, lucky man!


----------



## jordanp

4-5 of the saws i picked up are actually newer disston's guessing 1960's 70's maybe? (true value) the handles are complete crap of course, but would it be worth while to make some new handles for them? did they continue to use decent steel?


----------



## ToddJB

Would they be good candidates to turn into scraper blades?


----------



## Tim457

Jordan, you could make new handles, but why not try fixing the ones you have? They're usually clunky enough with enough extra wood you can carve out a nicer handle. They were free, so no loss really if you screw up. Then you still can make a new one if you want to.

Here's a video about it: Restoring a Saw Handle - with Paul Sellers

As far as the steel, I'm not sure. I bet they're not taper ground and they're sure not hand forged, but otherwise should be decent spring steel.

Edit: Forgot to warn you, cheesy special effects in that video.


----------



## RonB57

Well ok. It's not baseball. But some of the drawings have been sitting in the bench for months waiting for their chance.
First is some guy they call Big Leaf. Single kind of guy that likes to dye his hair. New guys always have to be different. 10ppi, 15 rake, 20 fleam, if I remember correctly.









Batting second. You guessed it. A double loop, freckled farm boy, in quarter cut sycamore. 9ppi, 25 fleam, 15 rake









Third is, of course, is a scraper from the city they call Tiger. Smaller grip but same size bat. Tiger maple with BLO. 9ppi, 15R, 20 fleam









Last is some pinch hitter from another country. South Americas maybe. Calls himself Cocobolo. He can't speak English, but he can still drive them home. Triple loop handle with a single loop plate. 9 ppi, 13 rake, 20 fleam.









So there you have it. The rest of the draft picks to be named later. I've been scouting some classy looking guy named Sapele and some burly guy that goes by the name Madrone.

And at the end of the day I still can't get the whole image to show..


----------



## shampeon

Ron: you should resize your images to be no bigger than 640 pixels wide, or they'll be cut off in the post. The noses sure are pretty!


----------



## Brit

Hi Ron, please can you resize your photos so they have a width of 640 pixels. Alternatively, if the photos are on your hard drive, just use the 'img' button to upload them directly into LJs and the resizing will take care of itself. Looking forward to seeing the whole saws. )


----------



## RonB57

OK. I think I got it this time. Bouncing around a bit.


----------



## Brit

Here's a little taster of Ron's saws until he can update his images. I like to think of Ron as the Woodrough and McParlin of our day. Always testing the boundaries of saw design. Lots of skill in them there saws folks.


----------



## Brit

Well done Ron. I was just killing time until you worked it out. )


----------



## Brit

I like them all Ron, particularly Freckled Farm boy. I can't believe I just said I liked a freckled farm boy.


----------



## jordanp

I've watched that video before =, may need to re visit it again


----------



## summerfi

Thanks for posting your saws here Ron. They are true works of art. Something for us amateurs to aspire to.


----------



## planepassion

Tim, your timing is excellent. I was just looking for tutorials on how to carve a wheat pattern. Did not have much luck…until now. What I like about Sellers is that he shows you how to do it with one tool. I'm weary of the "You have to have tools, A, B, C, D, E and F before you start" tutorials. Good grief. I just want to start learning how to carve using the tools I already have


----------



## ToddJB

Ron, those are amazing. I really like the shaping of the blade under the handle. Do you have a shot of your etch that can be seen more clearly?


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

On his website.

Man, those are beautiful…

http://www.bontzsawworks.net/


----------



## theoldfart

Seriously drooling, saw envy!


----------



## Slyy

Ron - that is some fantastic work there! The style on the heel of the blade is just as impressive as the toe!


----------



## RonB57

Let me know if I didn't post these in the right place. I generally just lurk a bit. Thank you for the compliments. Ron


----------



## chrisstef

Wow Ron. Those half backs are amazing. I hope ya hang around a bit.


----------



## TobyC

Jordan,

The steel is excellent on the Disstons, even the HK Porter and Disston Inc., and the hand and panel saws are taper ground. Only the handles are cheap,... and on the later ones the saw nuts are aluminum.


----------



## RonB57

Hey Toby, About what year do you think they took the plunge to the cheaper steel?


----------



## chrisstef

Sooooo lets say that someone had reshaped the teeth of a saw with a file a little too big for the saw. It wasnt sharpened but it was shaped, so he says. What would you guys suggest he did moving forward?


----------



## racerglen

Off the deep end, shtartin over ?


----------



## donwilwol

I need a half back now. I'm not sure why, I just know I do!


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Ron, your saws are wonderful. I'm sure the traffic on your website went up today

If I had one critique, I wish you had even ballpark pricing on the sold saws so people had an idea. Is contacting you the only way to find this out?


----------



## racerglen

If you have to ask ?

;-)


----------



## RonB57

chrisstef,
If you are speaking of pitch/ tooth count, you can file it completely down or have new teeth re punched. Either way you are starting over.

BigRedKnothead, I am not sure what you mean by even ball park pricing. But all my saws have a basic price. It's the wood species that affects them the most. You would not believe what some of these guys want for their " cut offs" I am stuck in the middle. Too small and too little cash flow. The story of my life.

summerfi, I am indeed an armature as well. I've just been practicing.


----------



## rhybeka

found this on etsy as i was nosing around the other day - and found it still in my cart tonight. Wondering why someone else hasn't snatched it up? I was considering getting into hand saws and thought this might be a good deal but wasn't hugely certain if the blade would be worth rehabbing? Thoughts?

https://www.etsy.com/listing/111051801/vintage-26-disston-saw?ref=shop_home_active_21


----------



## shampeon

$22 total isn't bad, but it isn't a screaming deal, either. It's got at least one chipped tooth at the nose, and you have no idea if the plate is bowed, etc.

I'd say keep looking.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Ron- doh! My bad. I was on my phone earlier and for some reason couldn't see any prices. Now I do. Thanks.

I'll keep you in mind if I have some cutoffs you may want. Oh, and the ogee on the heal of the blade is brilliant.


----------



## summerfi

rhybeka - I don't believe that is a 1930's saw as the seller states. More like 1950's or later, and not a high quality saw. At $10 plus shipping I'd keep looking. You can do better.

Ron - You may consider yourself an amateur, but your work certainly is anything but amateur. I too hope you stick around on this forum because some of us have 49,692 questions we would like to ask you!


----------



## summerfi

Stef - If I understand you correctly, this undisclosed person used, for example, a regular taper file to shape the teeth when a slim taper would have been the better choice. What I would suggest is that this undisclosed person finish by sharpening the saw with a slim taper. The only difference, really, is the radius of the gullet. The slim taper should reduce the radius during the final sharpening. Does that make sense, or am I answering the wrong question?


----------



## chrisstef

Right about all over it Bob. Wahhahappn'd was i used a 5" xx slim instead of the 4" xxslim while working a 14 ppi saw. Had one all chocked up and thought it was right. I was wrong. I actually just finished it up with the 4". Gave it a test run and it worked good and tracked well. I checked the teeth and if they moved at all it was very minor at best. It was a $5 saw thats got some pitting to it. I wish it was nicer but it was good practice and ill hook up another LJ with it.


----------



## chrisstef

I do see what youre saying on the gullets though. Thats good feedback. I need to learn stuff like that and making a mistake is usually where you get the good info.


----------



## Wally331

So Ron if your looking for an apprentice….  But seriously haha. Gorgeous saws, I hope to make saws of that level some day.


----------



## RonB57

Wally331,
Some how I suspect you will far surpass my abilities. An engineer with a wood working addiction is a good combo.


----------



## TobyC

Ron,

From what I've seen they never did. The later saws have very good steel, as good as the earlier saws and more consistent. I've seen Marv and others say the same thing over on woodnet. 
The handles are machine made, the etch is printed on, the nuts on HK Porter are chrome plated steel, and the ones on Disston Inc. saws are aluminum, that's how they're cheap. And of course they didn't make their own steel, just bought it in rolls. 
I have a Disston Inc Handsaw that was 8 pt crosscut that I filed to 8pt rip that has become my go-to rip saw, stays sharp, cuts fast and true, I love it! Good steel, great saw, and I got it for free.

Toby


----------



## RonB57

"- Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect. ~ Mark Twain "

 I grew up in Hannibal Mo. Yeah, the show me state.  I am not so sure about the saw steel. From some of the newer saws I have seen ( after 1960s, they seem softer, ( file easier ) and dull a little quicker from what I have been told. I do know some of the spring steel out there is 1075 and 1085 that has been hardened to RC52. I have spent way too much time speaking with fabricators and steel suppliers. What a pain indeed. Either way, Free is an unbeatable value and you can afford to sharpen many times then throw away. NO BUT WAIT! Save that handle!!  Take care.


----------



## Armandhammer

Are the Disston D-23's no good? They are all over ebay for cheap and usually nobody buys them? I've been looking locally and coming up empty handed and flea markets don't start up around here until around March, but i need saw now. Out of the Disstons, which are best, the D-12? Where do the D-8's fall in? There seem to be a fair number of them as well but prices range wildly with them.


----------



## TobyC

From here.

For a woodworker or carpenter looking for a handsaw to use, the D-23 is an excellent choice. 
First, the price is reasonable because they are newer than most of the more collectable saws. 
Second, because they aren't as old, they are likely not to have been sharpened more than once or twice, if at all. Handsaws fell into disuse after WWII as power saws came into favor. 
Third, you can subject a D-23 to the harsh environment of a worksite without feeling bad about abusing a 100-year-old antique. The handles are thicker and stronger than other saws. Think of all old saws you see with broken horns on the handle. That sort of damage is not found on D-23's.


----------



## TobyC

And…

Another good feature of the D-23 is the blade. The steel is a good combination of hardness and toughness. As metallurgic science improved in the 20th century, sawmaking became less "black magic" and quality was more consistant.

Finally, even as Disston began to cut corners and quality decreased in many aspects (look at the saw handle), D-23 saws made before 1955 are better than any handsaw sold since then.

From the same webpage.


----------



## planepassion

A&H. I own a D-23 and agree with most of the above. However, I don't like the nickel-plated hardware. And the handle is far too big for my small hands and it's uncomfortable for me to use. There are so many D-8s with decent handles around on Ebay, flea markets and estate sales that with a little looking you can add a great saw with a comfy handle for a few more bucks.

I think that were I to retrofit the saw with a homemade handle to my hand size, that I would use it frequently.


----------



## Armandhammer

What are some other good quality vintage saws that are worth looking at, other than Disston? That's really all I've been looking at since it seems they are the most popular and thus sought after. Perhaps I should look at some other options at least until yard/garage sale/flea market season starts. All I really want is a good cross cut saw to get started. I can use my table saw for ripping for the time being if I need to.


----------



## Slyy

Readily available "brand name" in my area are the Atkins saws. I've found several filed crosscut with a good range of TPI. Around here I can usually find them at swap meets, flea markets and estate sells in the $2-6 range.


----------



## TobyC

Almost anything made before WW1 is a good saw, look for a well shaped handle and brass screws, the brand doesn't matter unless you are a collector.


----------



## Slyy

For the esteemed council of LJ's:

Found another D-8 thumb hole and seeking some advice. It was horribly cracked handle so I've used some epoxy to fill in the cracks, sanded to 500 grit and cleaned it up after with some denatured alcohol. Just wet with the DA, the wood has some stunning color to it. 
I plan on likely finishing it before hand since I anticipate not being able to remake the horn for a bit, I use danish oil so it would be easy to clean up around that to use epoxy again to attach my replacement horn and easy enough to put finish back on that portion of the tote.
My question is this: the lower horn is missing and I would like to fix it, what wood would you suggest would be a good fit here? My current stocks are rather limited so pretty much no matter what I'd have to go out and find or get something.


----------



## grfrazee

I believe Disston used apple a lot for handles. If you think that's the case with yours, any fruit wood would probably work (apple, pear, etc).

If I was at home (on the road for work) I would cut you off a hunk of the apple stump I have and mail it. Alas, such is not that case.


----------



## Slyy

Appreciate the offer GR! We had an ice storm not too long ago here and (unsuprisigly) there are still a LOT of Bradford pear remains around, might go scoop up some of that!! Thanks!


----------



## summerfi

Jake, if it were me I would go ahead and repair the horn before finishing the handle. Won't take that long, and I think you'd be glad you did. If you can't find any wood locally, let me know and I'll send you a piece of apple. Wood from an old non-repairable saw handle works well for making repairs if you have one.


----------



## Slyy

Bob - what ya think about the pear? I'm sure I could find storm fall if that would be an okay replacement for the apple?


----------



## RonB57

Slyy,
I have a little piece of apple I just threw in the trash. If you will send me your address, I will just cut off a piece, put it in a small flat rate box and poof.


----------



## summerfi

Jake, pear might work if you could find a close color match. It might not be dry though if it is from a live windfall. With multiple offers for apple, that would be my choice.


----------



## Slyy

Well while deciding what to do next on that disston, I decided to start scraping some rust off a two man crosscut saw a friend gave me (lives on acerage and found it brush hogging).
An interesting stamp showed up at both ends near the no longer existing handles:









Best pic I could take, but it reads: WPA
His land is very near Tinker Airforce Base in Midwest City, it was built in 1941, still within the time the WPA was around and handing out jobs. Makes ya wonder how it ended up in his field, maybe clearing land for the airbase? Who knows. Hopefully all the rust will clean up and I might find an etch under there somewhere too. Certainly an interesting story there somewhere I'd wager.


----------



## jordanp

I have some apple that has been drying for 25 years but most of it is darker.. let me know if you want to try it


----------



## Slyy

Thanks Jordan, I think I've got an LJ care package on the way soon, appreciate it!


----------



## Tim457

Wow Jake, that saw found in the brush looks better than some I've seen for sale at flea markets. Lets see a picture of the whole thing. I only see one tooth before the raker, that's interesting.


----------



## summerfi

VERY interesting on that WPA saw Jake. That may be one for a museum. Looking forward to seeing the whole thing.


----------



## DonBroussard

@Jake-Nice find on the 2-manner. The WPA is pretty cool. The fact that you are near an air base does lend credence to it being used for some federal project back in the day. Of course, it could just be the previous owner's initials (like William P. Appleby or some such name).

BTW, down here in Cajun Country, the two-man saws are called "passe partouts-means "through everything". Maybe not literally, though.


----------



## Slyy

As requested:









Yeah, looks like tooth/raker/tooth/tooth/raker.

Don, obvious no way to know for sure, but the timing/location seems to me to say actual WPA, also most (if not all) self signed saws/tools I've seen have been carved or some version of electro pencil, the two opposite WPA's on this saw are clearly stamped. Kinda seems more "official" for want of a better term. Either way, it's a cool piece of history all the same.

Anyone have good example of what the original handle style would have been like? I was thinking it'd probably be the riveted bracket style?


----------



## summerfi

Were there any remains of handle hardware attached to the blade? Or laying nearby?


----------



## Wally331

Sweet saw Slyy, I'd love to get a chance to cut some trees down with a big two man saw like that. I know that if I win the lottery I'm becoming a mountain man for sure lol.

In other news, I cleaned up a Keen Kutter no. 88. It really turned out very beautiful, I think this saw is easily on par with disstons higher models. It is sharp as found, but it could use some fine tuning. I think it is going to a good home with Armandhammer too.









My opinion on decent saw makers other then Disston? I have become very fond of Atkins saws, G. Bishop saws out of Cincinnati are very nice too. But as Toby said, anything before WWII, especially if it is taper ground (which is will usually say somewhere in the etch, saying something like "Patent ground" etc.) There are a lot of saws out there by semi-obscure makers that are very good. Most British saws from the same era are excellent but less common in America obviously.


----------



## TobyC

May have been a Climax saw handle, can't find a descent image but these may help.


----------



## Armandhammer

That is a nice looking saw. Can't wait to make some dust with it!


----------



## 69BBNova

This is my first steel from across the pond…

Its a 26in 5.5tpi (not ppi) rip, it has some pitting but not that bad overall, bit of the nib or maybe all of it (looks sortof short and fat), not really sure and has split nuts with the top one being a bit smaller…

The Medallion and plate stamp has not only the name but also a crown and the letters S and J below it and the word Sheffield at the bottom…

The handle has a crack at the top starting at the end where the blade was let in but actually isn't all that large and the handle has no wiggle at all…

I paid $6 which was half off what I thought it would be but I didn't care because it WAS coming home with me…

I do have to retooth it because 4 are broken off but in time I'll get it up to snuff.


----------



## Slyy

Bob - if there was still hardware, it may still be buried where he found it. I'll ask If he recalls where and might go digging.

Toby - that third picture might fit with what I just noticed about the handle end:









You can see the indentation of a slight semi circle at the bottom edge of the blade. I was originally thinking handles completely out to the side on riveted brackets similar to this:









But if that were the case, I couldn't imagine a need for the half circle cut into the metal. Google search is not finding me what I want, any chance anyone has a crosscut saw with a handle similar to the third one Toby posted or at least a close up picture of one?
My father-in-law is a machinist by hobby, so machining brackets might not be totally out of the realm of possibility for me.


----------



## Slyy

Nova - typing as you posed that. SICK looking saw there! I am uber jealous of both the English connection and that wicked lambs tongue! Great score for just the two cheapest presidents!!!


----------



## ShaneA

Saw gurus…I am on a mission to reclaim some space in my overstuffed garage. Going to be building some organization/storage stuff. Looking through some saw till projects on the ol' LJ site has brought me to a question or two. Seems a lot of the tills feature the saws setting at an angle with the blade essentially resting in the kerf of the saw. I think most all the saws I currently own have some sort of plastic blade guard on them. Should the kerf be enlarged to accommodate the guard, or should I just drop kick the gaurd? Currently I own set of 3 LV saws, a set of 3 Japanese saws, and various flush cut and coping saws. Any words of wisdom out there?


----------



## TobyC

I guess you could use the handle of your choice.


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## lysdexic

Trying to catch up with this thread.

Good question Shane. My saws came with a wooden guard. So, I don't see a reason why the wood of a saw till is any different. Thus, I plan on ditching the separate guards.


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## summerfi

Nova - Congrats on that Spear & Jackson. It's a great saw and you made a fantastic acquisition. Post some pics once you get it spruced up. The toothline doesn't look in bad shape aside from the broken teeth, so it should be fairly easy to sharpen.

Shane - That's a really good question and I'm glad you brought it up. When I built my saw till I noticed most people have their saw teeth resting on the wood. I intentionally built mine so the teeth point out, not touching anything. I'd be interested in people's thoughts on which way is better, or if it makes any difference at all. It's a little like the discussion of whether you set a hand plane down on it's sole or on it's side. I'm a side man 'cause that's how I was taught.


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## chrisstef

I think id ditch the guards if they were going in a dedicated till. Ding a tooth and ya got another 100 or so behind it. That's just my opinion. The only saws I leave the tooth guard thingys on are my Veritas because they just kind of kick around without a real home. Nomad, vagabond, call me what you will.


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## Slyy

Toby - thanks for those pictures. You know I didn't even realize it was designed to basically accept whatever handle type you needed/had. Now I feel like I'm headed in the right direction. I'm also gonna see if I can email someone associated with the former WPA to get some info on whether this might be something of theirs or not.

Bob - been lookin at making a till recently, now that my collection is big enough that it's in the way. You bring up a good point, something that's crossed my mind a few times, why not teeth out? Almost everyone I've seen is teeth in and it makes me wonder how you know which saw is which (cut wise) other than just remembering where you put each one.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Re Shane's question: It's kinda the same dilemma on whether you rest your hand planes on their side while working at the bench. I used to worry about that kind of stuff. But then I thought, is the plane blade (or saw teeth in this case) just resting on wood? Can that wood do any more damage the next time you pick that tool up and apply it to…..wood?

Not trying to be a smart-arse, that's just the kind of reasoning I have to slap myself with sometimes. My saw till just has slots for the saws. The teeth touch the back of that slotted 3/4 board. I don't slam the saws in the till. No issues so far.


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## lysdexic

^ agreed.


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## planepassion

I think that having the teeth face inward helps protect them from getting dinged when redocking another saw near it. Seating the saw teeth in, handle down also makes it easy peasy to retrieve the saw without the potential of cutting yourself. I have had absolutely zero issues with this approach. The steel in these saws is a lot harder than the wood they sit in. Also, I just think it would be nothing but awkward to undock a saw with the teeth facing out.

As for knowing which saw is which, my saw till is organized [from the left] like this. The first two saws are filed rip, a 5 1/2 then a 7 ppi, in that order [course to fine toothing]. Next to them I have four XC saws. Two full-sized handsaws, 8 ppi then 10 ppi, then two panel saws, on 8 ppi and one 11 ppi. After using the till for a while I just know which saw is which by placement, and by their different handles. I have adopted the Christopher Schwarz line of thinking that says you should pick your tools and use them exclusively to learn their nuances, how to use them, sharpen then etc. That's how you get good with them. So if you're doing that, you'll know which saw you're reaching for by sight.

When I first got a bunch of saws, I wanted to learn the differences between makers, vintages, handles and hangs. Having done that I now have my favorites that I use exclusively.


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## summerfi

I'm sure I'm in the minority in placing teeth out in the saw till. I don't think there is a right or wrong answer on this, but here is my reasoning. Yes, steel is harder than wood, but over time wood does wear steel down. If it didn't, there would never be a need to sharpen a steel cutting tool. When you're using a saw, the steel is in contact with the wood for seconds, or at most a minute or two. When sitting in the saw till, the steel is in contact with wood 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year. Because the saw is leaning, there is also slight pressure from the teeth on the wood. Due to changes in temperature and humidity and vibrations in the environment, there is constant, though very slight, friction between the saw teeth and wood. It is only over 3/4" of the toothline, but I want my saw teeth to be as perfect as they can be. Why have this potential for slight wear occurring when it is unnecessary? The other thing is, over many years of taking the saw out and putting it in the till, the teeth will significantly wear down the slot in the wood.

My till is up fairly high, and I grab a saw by its handle, not by its teeth, so no chance of cutting myself. Also, when putting a saw in the till, there is just as much chance of banging one saw's teeth on another saw's back whether the teeth are facing in or out. I've not found bumping the teeth with other objects while doing work in the shop to be a problem, I think mostly because my till is fairly high. So, in my mind it's mostly a matter of personal preference and probably doesn't matter much either way. I just elect to give my cutting edges, whether saw, plane, chisel, or whatever, the maximum chance of staying sharp. I have my till organized the same as Brad, rip on the left, xcut on the right, both organized from course to fine teeth.


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## Tim457

Shane I don't know about plastic guards, but you see vintage saws that have been stored with their blade guards on for a long time that have serious rust under where the blade guard was. I'd assume it was because the guards were usually made of wood or something that absorbed moisture from the air and trapped it against the saw blade allowing rust to start. Not sure if the same thing would happen with a plastic guard or not but it would take a long time sitting unused in the guard either way. If the saw is used and cared for I doubt it would happen. Just running a saw through wood takes rust off the tooth line.

But it does make me wonder about open saw tills. I really like the rust preventative part of a tool chest and a closed sealed saw till would certainly help with that. Doesn't sound that great to use unless you left it open while working I guess.


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## 69BBNova

Nomad, vagabond, call me what you will.

Chrisstef…I swear this line is from Areosmith Get Your Wings.

Can't really remember for sure.

I messed up on the Spears and Jackson saw I got…its a 4.5tpi rip…after all these years I still screw it up.


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## chrisstef

Nova - Metallica, where I may roam. But hey you picked up on it so props for that  Congrats on the spear & Jackson.


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## lysdexic

I am the fortunate recipient of a D-7 sharpened by the one and only Stef812. Unfortunately he forgot to completely reassemble the saw before shipping and it left his house without a couple saw nuts. I protested but he replied that he had done enough charity work and I was a lost cause. I couldn't argue.

Left to my own devices I scavenged a couple nuts from a D-8 that, in my opinion, was spent. The intriguing thing about the donor saw is that I found it in my outdoor shed. That in itself is not that wierd but the shed is new and was built only 2 years ago. So only my stuff is in there. Yet, I have no recollection as to its origin or how it came to me. It first came into consciousness when I picked out of a pile of familiar yard tools. I looked at it and shrugged. Hmmm.

I've maintained it intact because it is a mystery to me. Regardless, it went missing again for the past six months and I finally retrieved from up under a rolling tool box.

Now it will live on as parts.

The D-7 is missing the nuts on the back.



















The donor…...



























It is whole and Stef812 is an ahole.


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## 69BBNova

Chrisstef…Can't believe I missed that…

Metallica Black is the first CD I ever bought.


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## lysdexic

In all sincerity….

Thanks Stef. I am sure this saw will serve me well for years to come.


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## ShaneA

You trusted Stef w/your property? Brave Scott, brave.


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## chrisstef

Lol scotty. 812. You inventive ba$tard. Im happy it go to you safe and sound and ceryainly hope it serves you well and works up to your standards.

For the technical aspects that saw came to me as a 7 ppi xcut with an estimated 15 degrees of rake, 25 degrees of fleam, and 2 missing saw nuts . I reshaped and sharpened the teeth to a rip profile of 7 degrees rake and no fleam. There was enough existing set to the teeth that i left it as is.

It should be a decent rip saw with the ability to xcut if needed. The 7 degrees of rake should allow it to start a little easier as well. This is all provided that i did a halfway decent job in the sharpening of it but were gonna have to wait for scotty to put it through the paces.

It found a good home and that makes me happypants.


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## summerfi

Here is a Taylor Brothers 6 ppi rip saw I just finished restoring. When I acquired the saw it had a non-original handle that someone had butchered, leaving me no choice but to make a new handle. I've found it nearly impossible to find quarter sawn beech, so I used a piece of figured walnut. I copied the handle on my J. Taylor & Son saw, changing the hang angle just slightly. The split nut screws are homemade. You may notice in the pics that a couple of teeth broke during setting, but they will eventually file out.





































In addition to the Taylor Brothers stamp, the saw has a secondary stamp closer to the handle that says "Made For USE". Even the experts seem unsure what this means. The word USE is standard on the medallions and stamps of R. Groves & Sons saws, and it appears on some other brands as well. Some have said it stands for U.S. Export, and others say it means literally what it says…made for use.










Here are the Taylor Brothers rip and the J. Taylor & Son crosscut together. These were two of the several trade names used by the same company known as Taylor Brothers.


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## Tim457

Wow Bob great job on that handle and restore.


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## CL810

Beautiful handle Bob.


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## chrisstef

Bob. Holy crap. Bravo sir.


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## donwilwol

Ditto on the holy crap. Talk about better than new!


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop

I heartily agree. That handle is incredible!


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## Slyy

Dear baby Jesus Bob, that handle is stunning!


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## chrisstef

Clocked, handmade split nuts. Hold me.


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## summerfi

Aww shucks guys. Thanks for the kind words.

Here's a little story to go with that walnut. When I was 13 years old (I'm now 64) I can remember my Dad and oldest brother going up to the mountains in Virginia to pick up a load of walnut lumber to build a set of kitchen cabinets for my brother's new house. It was beautiful, dark colored walnut. There were a few boards left over, and these remained in my dad's shop for a very long time. After he died, I returned home in 2005 and in addition to picking up a bunch of tools, I got all the hardwood I could, including 4 of these walnut boards. The boards must be about 16" wide, 8 feet long, and rough sawn to 1"+. This handle came out of one of these boards, so it is well aged by now.


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## planepassion

Tim, I've noticed the same thing-vintage saws with a rust pattern/outline of a saw guard. I don't use saw guards with the exception of both of my dove tail saws. I like to protect them itty, bitty teeth.

Summerfi, that walnut handle represents one fine piece of woodworking. The fact that it comes from a stash of your father's walnut makes it more special. I've been meaning to make some new handles for a few of my saws. I have small hands and the beefy, D-8-style handles aren't comfortable for me.

By chance, are you preparing a blog post showcasing your saw handle making technique? I would love to read about your process.


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## lysdexic

+1 Bob. I'd love to see how you achieved such awesomeness (best word i could come up with).


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## Slyy

Bob, I'm certainly with Tim here. I would love to see a of post on your saw refurbs!!!


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## summerfi

Sorry guys, I failed to take pictures throughout the making of that handle, but on the next one I make I'll do that and turn it into a blog…I promise.

In the past when I've been asked how I made something, I responded like this. You start with a big piece of wood, you imagine what it is you want to make, and then you remove all the wood that doesn't belong there. It's as simple as that. ;-)


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## Slyy

it's as simple as that

Can't argue that point certainly Bob! I know for me (in just the few attempts I've made so far) it's getting happy with my sanding. I still feel like I'm missing aFew low spots that carry a tiny bit of file or knife marks that I just can't seem to get rid of, especially in harder to reach areas. I'm wondering if I'm just letting my unpracticed hand get a little too deep with the rasps/files in some areas as I'm shaping. Get a few more under my belt and I might get anywhere close to that walnut handle you cranked out!


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## summerfi

Jake, after bandsawing out the handle profile, I shape it exclusively with a variety of rasps. Once it's shaped the way I want it, I remove the rasp marks with files, then remove the file marks with 220 sandpaper and then finish up with 320 paper. After rasping and filing, it really takes very little sanding though. Maybe you're using too course of a rasp.


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## Armandhammer

So, you taking orders on new saw handles? I'd bet you could sell quite a few. Put me #1 on the list please.


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## summerfi

A&H - if I ever decide to start selling handles, you've got the #1 spot. I don't really expect that to happen though…I enjoy retirement too much.


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## Armandhammer

I can understand that. Just figured I'm book mark my spot. Maybe you could do a limited run of handles…like maybe a run of one or something?...lol


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## terryR

Bob, are you hoarding all these gorgeous saws you have saved? Or selling a few? You do magnificent work. The walnut tote is friggin awesome!

Jake, from an enabler's point of view, maybe you need some expensive Auriou rasps? LOL. They truly are a joy to use, and cause less tear out of the wood fibers since the teeth are hand cut. After making 100 spoons with sanding tools, I now love the feel of a quality rasp!

Also, after putting down my rasps, I usually start sanding with 80 or 100 grit paper in those areas where my hands made mistakes. I even sand in circular motions so it's easy to see the rasp marks from the sandpaper marks. Just my method…


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## BigRedKnothead

^I need some better files and rasps myself. I have a few quality vintage I've bought from Walt at brasscity, but it's tough to find vintage that aren't hammed.

Bob- that handle is inspirational. I've always got some figured walnut pieces around, but often they have checks or unstable parts through the middle;-/
What type of finish do you use? I learned from my order will Wally that I might prefer oil and wax for tool handles. Still learning.


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## terryR

Red, try some thin super glue to stabilize the burl parts. Darkens the wood, but holds well.


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## ToddJB

I picked these up the other day and just got done cleaning them up. They all seem to be pretty sharp, but haven't given them a go yet. All USA Nicholsons and Simonds, with one being Delta, and one being Disston.


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## summerfi

Terry - I've only sold 3 saws so far, but I need to sell more. It's hard to sell something you've put effort into restoring, but it doesn't make sense for me to keep them all.

Red - I'm not a fan of oil finishes on tools. Some handles, like hammers, I just use a paste wax finish. On my saws I use 3 or 4 coats of satin wipe on poly followed by a light buff with 0000 steel wool and then paste wax.


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## chrisstef

I couldnt help myself. These saws need out of that bucket they were wallowing in. They looked so sad. For $10 clams a piece they join their brothers in line for a refinish.

D8 thumbhole and maybe an 1871-1876 split nut 7.


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## BigRedKnothead

Bob- I guess I should specify, I like to use danish oil which has a drying agent and some varnish in it…as opposed to BLO or something. Then I like paste wax.

Nice pickups fellas.


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## lysdexic

The D7 doesn't even look like it has teeth.


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## chrisstef

Yea it appears to be a 10-12 ppi crosscut Scotty, really hard to see in the pic but theyre there, just really small. Handles cracked across the middle and there's a screw holding together another part at the lower horn. Whomever fixed it did a really nice job on it sans using a screw. I think its salvageable provided I can get the split nuts out. There's also a very very faint etch that I can see. Pretty impressive for a 130 year old saw.

I think saws are worse than planes for me. Im lucky I can get them so cheap up here.


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## bandit571

There is a "mall" just up the hill from me, has an old Milk Barrel sitting near the front door, FULL of $3 handsaws…

Back in a stall, there are some for $7 or so.


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## grfrazee

In regards to how you identify saws in the till when the teeth are facing in, I present the following solution:

I am in the (slow) process of making a pair of saws from an old Disston miter box saw. In doing do, I am making two brand new handles out of mesquite. The saws will be a rip and crosscut and nearly identical in all aspects except for the sharpening.

One day in the shop, I had a minor epiphany. Saw nuts already have a built-in identification mechanism - the slot. I decided from then on, for my saws, *R*ip saws would have the saw nut slot on the *R*ight side of the handle and crosscut saws with the slot on the left. No more straining the eyes to see what the rake and fleam look like on miniscule teeth. Just look at the saw nuts, make sure the tooth pitch is correct, and off you go.

Granted, this may not work for vintage saws where the holes for the saw nuts are fitted exact to the orientation of the saw nuts.


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## planepassion

grfrazee, interesting that you cannibalized a miterbox saw to use the sawplate to make backsaws. That's a relatively inexpensive way to do it and you know the steel is good. I hope you blog about your construction experience.

As for saw identification, I've found that the Rip-on-the-left-XC-on-the-right combined with course-to-fine approach works quite well. After a few shop sessions of use you won't need to look at the saw at all because you have the slot memorized.

That's easy for my backsaws because I have a brass-backed S&J tenon saw filed rip, a Disston D-4 monster tenon saw filed XC, a Disston D-4, 16" filed XC, a Disston D-4, 12" XC and a Noble #1, 12" XC. The various characteristics (handle, brass or steel back and length) make it easy to differentiate among them at a glance.

That's not as true for my hand- and panel-saws. However, the Rip-XC, Course-Fine arrangement still works well. Now mind you I only keep users in my saw tills. So my handsaw/panel saw till only houses 6 saws. My backsaw till contains 7 saws. The ones I mentioned above plus two dovetail saws. I use them all and in different situations. For example, I use the LN DT saw for DTs and the Dozuki DT saw for very fine-kerf, accurate cuts.


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## TobyC

Yo Tony,... That's a No. 7,... The D-7 began in 1928.

You guys kill me with your saw finds, and the prices! Around here EVERYTHING is a valuable antique!


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## planepassion

Well, that's what you get for living in a cat-pig swamp TobyC.

In recent years I've been surprised by the rise in tool prices at antique stores, flea markets and estate sales. The antique stores are a buy and sell business, so they're looking to get double their money to make ends meet plus make some profit.

The estate sale price increases I would attribute to the inane practice of looking on Ebay to see what people are asking. They never look at the prices of things that sold.

I had a friend sell me a miterbox from such a sale and she said she needed it back because she saw "one" advertised on Ebay for $300. I had to educate her about what missing parts, the product's condition and a later vintage do to prices…not to mention all the effort of writing an ad, putting together pics, posting it on Ebay then shipping it when/if it sells. It seems as if everyone wants all the revenue benefits Ebay can offer without enduring any of the hardships necessary to reap them.

Ebay is an international market too (e.g. many more buyers), whereas Denver neighborhood estate sales attract very few buyers interested in tools by comparison. So in my opinion, using Ebay prices, asking OR sold, as a guide lead to overinflated prices.

And then factor in that prices seem to vary considerably by region. The north-east US seems to be awash in vintage tools and prices, from what I've seen here, seem to reflect that. Based on my experience and those of others who've posted on this Website, Colorado, Texas and Nevada markets have a scarcity of vintage tools by comparison.


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## Slyy

Gosh long day of work nothing like getting up at 4 and see that it's only twice that tempwise outside!!
Thread catch up time!
Bob- thanks for the tips! I'll chalk most of my shaping woes up to amateurism, get some more practice under my belt and I bet I'll be a lot happier with the results.

Terry - I've heard you mention a few times before how much you like those rasps!! Certainly the entry price is a bit steep, but maybe as much as I'm saving buying/restoring rust I might be able to treat myself here and there.

Red - I'm with you a bit here, one of the allures of this hobby is resurrecting and using tools that have been around sometimes 5 times longer than I have!! But rasps/files, almost by ther nature, seem so hard to find used but NOT abused beyond hope of repair.

Stef - awesome find on those two there, I've been on the hunt for a good 19th century Disston, specially one with the 'ol twained bollocks!


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## BigRedKnothead

Brad- Ebay…agreed. I blame the inflated vintage tool market for driving me to a Lie Nielsen addiction.

Sly- Ya, I'm kickin' around other options for files as rasps. I admit the cheapy files work ok for wood. But the minute you touch them to metal…..they're gone.

We've covered the depressing state of saw sharpening files. Quality files for shaping saw handles can are in a similar state. Basically the made in mexico or india mess….or high end Ariou etc. There are some middle of the road choice I've seen. Lj Shampeon referenced these German made awhile back:
http://www.traditionalwoodworker.com/Rasps-Wood-Files/products/186/

and they have an Austrian made hand cut option:
http://www.traditionalwoodworker.com/Patternmakers-Rasps-Hand-Cut-in-Austria/products/240/

Anyway. I'm thinkin about going that route.

With the few handles I've shaped and smoothed…your gonna need sandpaper no matter what. I really like using PSA rolls (adhesive backed). It sticks to my hand, a dowel, or a card scraper to get into all the crannies. Mirka my fav stuff.

That's all I have to say about that.


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## shampeon

Red: yup, the set from Traditional Woodworker are made by Pfeil, and are quite nice. To me, the idea that hand stitching makes for a smoother cut sounds a little suspect, though I can be convinced.

But supporting an artisan is a much more compelling argument for going the more expensive hand-stitched route.


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## BigRedKnothead

Ya Ian, I bookmarked those after you mentioned them. So you did get machine stitched for Xmas? If so, are you happy with them?


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## CL810

Has anyone tried the Grobet rasps from LV?


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## Armandhammer

Quick question…is there any reason to choose a D-7 or No. 7 Disston over a D-8 from a user only stand point?


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## lysdexic

FWIW, I spent some time chatting with Scott Meeks this past weekend as he was shaping a mesquite smoothing plane. I asked about his rasps. He now only Auriou rasps. For his plane making classes, if asked, he recommends a 9, 12, and 15 grain.


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## Slyy

A&H - not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet, but the Disston Institute. Could upset the balance!


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## Armandhammer

Yeah, I've been pouring over that site. But I don't see anything that says one saw is better than the other, unless I'm missing it.


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## planepassion

Armandhammer, The Disstonian Institute does talk about high-end saws, such as the No. 12. The steel was the best of its day and my personal experience with it confirms it. I tend to like the No. 7 and No. 8 over the D-7 and D8 for the simple reason that the handles are smaller and more comfortable in my hands. As the years passed, the handles became less shaped and beefier. A post WWII saw handle is decidedly uncomfortable in my hand. I also think that the earlier sawplates are a bit daintier, and can be kinked easier, so I take greater care with them.

BRK, I would agree that the rise in vintage tool prices has narrowed the gap between old and new to the point that it's well worth a look at the new. The problem for me was, once I purchased my first LN tool, I was hooked. The fit and finish of them are indeed heirloom as they claim. And the performance of their tools is excellent. I don't regret purchasing a single LN tool I own. Nor do I regret owning a single LV tool I own either. LV makes excellent tools that perform well too.

My point is, while high vintage prices may have pushed you in the direction of your LN addiction, I suspect that the quality of the tools sealed the deal


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## Armandhammer

Yeah, I saw where the No. 12 and possibly the Victory models were the best offers Disston had. I'd certainly love a No. 12 but they go for too much $$$ right now for my initial saw purchases. The No. 7 I'm looking at is a pre-war saw…actually I think it's dated back to the WWI era. The D-8 is a thumbhole and I can get it for a pretty decent price. I may end up grabbing both. I need the rip blade and I just kinda want the No. 7 even though I have a crosscut blade heading my way already. I was just wondering if out of the No. 7 and D-8 if one was better than the other or if they were pretty much the same level.


----------



## terryR

Nice eye candy, ScottyB!

Guys, the recognized woodworking community pretty much all agree a hand cut rasp performs better than a machine cut one. I've not seen a double blind study with photos, but everyone I read says they are far superior. I've only used Nicholson rasps before, and now only Gramercy and Aurious, so those are the only 3 brands I can speak for personally.

Yeah, the cost is over the top at $100+ EACH, But 5 minutes in your hand will make you hide the rest of your rasps, since the hand cut teeth are random and don't create deep gouges to clean up later. I asked for my first quality rasp as a gift due to cost, but now own a handful of differing sizes, and couldn't even tell you where my Borg rasps are?

Now…files…that's another topic. I generally don't use files on wood…

A&H, I think the different quality saws from Disston have to do with the steel type, and how it's treated. London Spring Steel is the Best from that era, so a No.12 would be considered a premium Disston. However, Disston also made saws for the average guy to afford in 1930, so lesser grades of steel and no tapered plates, cheaper totes. Still. a 'lesser' saw from that era is superior to what's made by the mainstream today. I think there is a page on that site that refers to the 4 main types of steel Disston used, listed on order of quality. I think, a general rule is, the saws made closer to the companies' end in 1955 were lower quality. A no.7 or a D-8 would BOTH be great users in your shop. One of each would be better!


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## Tim457

Yeah I don't think it's the hand stitching itself that makes the rasps so much better, but that the teeth are more random and not so lined up in rows and columns like machine rasps. Supposedly there are CNC made rasps now that have more random teeth like the hand stitched ones but they cost nearly as much as hand stitched anyway.

Thanks for passing along the grain size recommendation Scott. It's a little overwhelming to look at the full range of "grits" and try to decide what would be best. Not in the budget now, but who knows for gifts, etc.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

"The problem for me was, once I purchased my first LN tool, I was hooked…."

I have had the same experience Brad. I've all but given up finding deals on vintage and opted to save for LN or LV.


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## ScottStewart

It took 10 days, but I finally read the whole thread. There is a wonderful amount of information here. Anyone have suggestions on where/how to buy vintage backsaws? Have you had decent luck on ebay? Eventually I want to get a couple premium saws, but this year's premium tool budget is going to be taken up on nice vices on a new bench and some joinery planes.

Different topic, are there any B&M stores that have any form of decent saw files? I would like to get started but the shipping makes it kind of tough to order a few files at a time.

Thanks to all who have contributed to this wonderful thread.


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## jordanp

Wally makes a heck of a premium back saw at a very good price.









A very sweet hand made saw


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## BigRedKnothead

Is this Bob (summerfi) in this pic?;-)


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## theoldfart

I think he's the guy in front!


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## summerfi

Hahaha…yep that's me after a good day of rust hunting. You just can't find em like you used to.

That's a classic picture. Where in the world did you find it Red?


----------



## terryR

I figured Bob was the young feller in the back. 

Red, please share a link to a full sized version of that image! Looks like great shop porn to me!

Got my saw from Wally in the post today…Gorgeous! 12" filed rip at 12ppi, Bubinga tote, photos tomorrow…


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## BigRedKnothead

Here's the link fellers:

http://blog.lostartpress.com/2014/01/24/letters-to-disston/

"suggestions on where/how to buy vintage backsaws?"
The million dollar question *Scott*. Not too many sellers here, just a bunch of hoarders (Bob, hehe picking on you…again). Because I didn't want to get heavy into restoring as of yet, I opted for new options. 
As Jordan said, Wally is our up and coming sawmaker. And he is very reasonable…for now

For backsaws, LN and Veritas aren't a ton more than your gonna spend for good vintage saws when you figure in restoring and sharpening supplies.

On that note, I got my next LN saw in the mail today. It had been 30 days since my last LN purchase, I was develping a tick. 









14" Xcut tapered carcass.


----------



## lysdexic

Nice. Very nice.

No one here buys from Need2Boat?


----------



## CL810

I've seen guys post that they had.


----------



## Slyy

Red - THAT is some serious shop porn material right there! Wonder how many of those actual saws are still floating around now? From the looks of the surroundings though, I bet all of those were road hard and put away wet about every day! Nice carcass saw by the way!

Jordan - that's a nice new ride, Wally's horns almost scare me how much taper they have! Beautiful work for sure!


----------



## summerfi

Beautiful LN saw Red. Now who's calling who a hoarder?

On that old picture, doesn't it make you wonder just where all those saws are today? Wouldn't you like to get your hands on even a few of them? I wonder how long it took old man Fraser to file a saw, and what kind of files he used. What sort of vise did he have, and what did it cost you when he filed your saw? I'm betting he didn't even have to think about things like pitch, rake and fleam. He'd done it so many times it was second nature. There aren't many like that left.

Mr. Wally must have been a busy guy lately. Seems like everybody has a new Wally saw.


----------



## jordanp

Yea Bob I think your missing out.. you might just have to bite the bullet and get a wally saw.


----------



## terryR

I've bought a few from Joe ( need2boat ), just missed on one recently. He stays busy, so isn't here as much lately.

Got a nice Sorby for sale now…

http://stores.ebay.com/Second-Chance-Saw-Works?_rdc=1


----------



## Mosquito

I've got a couple of saws from Joe as well. Good stuff, fair prices, and fun to chat with. I've got 1 with original plate, and one with a new plate. Both are great.


----------



## shampeon

Red: Yup, got 'em for Xmas, I've used them a few times, and they're great. Very even cut, nice handles, and good balance.


----------



## Armandhammer

Wally?


----------



## Slyy

A&H - Wally331 (AKA Chris), check out his blog and projects to see some of his work as well:
Wally's Profile


----------



## Armandhammer

Duh. I should have known that…I just bought a saw from him…lol…not one of his but a vintage saw he cleaned up and sharpened for me.


----------



## lysdexic

Ill say it again Rojo. Congrats on the new back saw. Gorgeous.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Thanks man. I admit, I didn't quite realize how much longer the tapered carcass saw than the others. It's a good 3 or 4 inches longer. A guy can always use a little more length though….doh!

Of course my life will not be complete without a LN small crosscut saw too.


----------



## planepassion

BRK, I've been longing for a 14" carcass saw to use with my saw stop for benchtop cuts. I do have a 16" Disston, which I like very much, but it's a bit hefty for this role. I'm thinking 14" would be just about right. That LN looks some serious kind of sweet. And Wally's work is stellar as well. Such talent at such a young age warms the heart.


----------



## terryR

As promised…photos of my Wally Saw…12" filed 'rip carcase' at 11ppi with 7 degrees of rake…sorry for the picture quality…iPad…










First impressions…love it! The Bubinga tote is gorgeous and feels great in the hand. A very few scratch marks on the tote and one on the plate keep it from being pristine, which would bother me on a $350 saw. But, NOT at Wally's price. The minor dings will occur monthly with use anyway.

The shop made split nuts are certainly not going to rival any from a CNC machine, but sure inspire me to re-build these pre-1900 saws with better hardware!










Love the color of the Bubinga finished with oil! And check out that sexy lamb's tongue…

So, how does it rip? Like a dream!!! I put Wally's saw head to head against my LN 14" rip tenon saw…and Wally's was a clear winner! Started easier and didn't bind in the cuts as my LN is prone.










As you can clearly see, I still tend to cut to the right of my goal, but Wally's saw let me do a better job than the LN. The slightly thicker plate of the LN, and less set?, constantly binded in this red oak. Not so with Wally's fine backsaw. No, a total of 10 rip cuts isn't really a scientific test. But, I've got a new go-to saw that's 1/3 the cost of the LN! Anyone interested in a 14" LN rip saw?


----------



## Slyy

Terry stop making me want a Wally!!! That is one nice looking tote on that saw!! I'm certainly in the market for rip filed backsaw, dang Wally! Excellent work and an excellent saw!!


----------



## terryR

Sorry, Jake. Just hoping to put more business on Wally's list. 

And, you guys stop the PM's…I was just kidding about selling the 14" LN. LOL. I'm gonna replace the sterile tote and learn to improve the teeth geometry! The LN really has worked well for me in the past…just not on red oak yesterday.


----------



## chrisstef

Wally's got that saw makin goin on. I hope it turns out to be one of those "I saw the rolling stones at a bar right before they took off" kinda stories. That would make this guy smile.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Well Terry….you shouldn't joke about selling LN stuff. People don't take that lightly….lol.

I have little experience with vintage saws. I'm wondering if Wallys saws feel and saw more like vintage….and that's why you like them. Might be my inexperience, but I love how the LNs cut. I plan on taking them up on their sharpening service when need be.

Got some good time with my new new Xcut LN yesterday. Like I said, it's longer and heavier than the veritas I was used to. But I'm really starting to like it. The extra weight from the brass makes a difference.

Here' you go Brad. They shipped it 2nd day priority for free…..lol
http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/html_p/A!504.htm

I'm kicking around customizing the handles on my LN saws a bit. I need to call LN and see what they use to color the curly maple.


----------



## terryR

Sorry Red, I was sorta serious last night when I posted that. But, common sense hath prevailed, and told me to keep the LN. It's been a good user! But, now, I plan to wear out this Wally Saw! LOL.


----------



## donwilwol

I've had the same thoughts off and on Terry. After handling the Wally, the LN is just another saw!


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Ok, called LN. They said they use a "gun oil finish" on their saw handles I am not familiar with those. I was thinking they used some sort of dye or shellac to turn the maple amber. I'll be reluctant to reshape/refinish them if I can't duplicate the color.


----------



## donwilwol

Something like Tru-Oil?


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Yep. Looks like I'll have to try some of this stuff. Have you used it Don? Does it have an amber hue?


----------



## donwilwol

I've used it on gun stocks. Its clear. I can't say there is not a tinted version, but there didn't used to be. Its more of a poly type finish, so I don't care for it unless I want the shiny look.


----------



## Slyy

Red - with Don on that, I'd assume they man the birchwood-Casey tru-oil. I've never cared for the stuff on guns (3-2-1 mix kinda guy myself), what I have used in the past though did have a slight amber hue to it if being used from an older container, otherwise pretty clear. I know the stuff is pretty hugely popular as a guitar finish.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

I see. Well, now I've got a quandary.

I didn't want to have to strip then LN saw handles all the way down to modify them. But looks like I'd probably have to. Then, I might as well use whatever finish I feel like.


----------



## lysdexic

Out of curiousity - what are your goals/objectives/motivation for the LN re-shape?


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Right Scotty. I should say I don't mind the LN handles. I think LN is trying to hit a price point with their saws. Custom hand sanding/smoothing the handles to perfection like the premier sawmakers do, would only drive up the price.

Anyway, I'd like to round over the flat area on the sides of the grip. 









-
And, I would probably take a little off the horns. I've got big mits, and they dig into my grip a little. 









-
I'll think about it. Like the predicament with Cocobolo knobs/totes on LN planes. Then I'd have to do it to them all;-)


----------



## WayneC

The other option would be to make all custom handles and retain the originals in the event you decide to sell them.


----------



## chrisstef

You have a LN bench brush too? You should rehandle your saws so that you can stick your pinky out instead of your pointer finger.


----------



## Airframer

You have a LN bench brush too? You should rehandle your saws so that you can stick your pinky out instead of your pointer finger.

BOOM!


----------



## WayneC

One should not diss the LN brush until one has tried one…


----------



## ToddJB

At $15 it might be one of the only LN tools I'd be willing to splurge for.


----------



## summerfi

Red - I like the suggestion to make new custom handles and retain the old ones in case you ever elect to sell the saws. That's a value added approach, plus you could choose whatever wood you wanted.


----------



## jordanp




----------



## Slyy

pinky out instead

Stef - One Shot: One Kill!!


----------



## BigRedKnothead

hehehe….Well, at least Wayne knows what I'm talking about. Not totally sure what's feminine about a brush for for your tools or bench. 
I'm just sick of Chinese made crap from the BORG. The plastic handle snapped on my old brush. It's hard to believe how much nicer that LN could be.

Bob- I've considered making new handles too. But right now I'm grumbling as because of how long it taking me to make a dozen screwdriver handles
As far as keeping the value, I'm not bashful about selling a tool if it doesn't strike my fancy, or if I don't use it. I don't foresee selling my LN saws. So I dunno.


----------



## Airframer

I don't think it was the fact that you have a brush for your tools… it's the high $$ name stamped on the side of it lol. But, to be fair I have been thinking of making a shop made brush so who am I to judge lol.


----------



## lysdexic

Rojo - I just bought a LN brush at their too event. You got to get something right?

Stef, can just kiss my arse. And yours too for that matter.


----------



## donwilwol

I think you should just sell the LN and buy another Wally!!

Just Sayin!!


----------



## jordanp

I corrected your picture Tony..


----------



## chrisstef

I just had an open opportunity to exact some revenge on Red so i had to take my shot. I got nothin against his gear. For 15 clams id tag one on to my order too. My bench brush came with the house.


----------



## WayneC

I was just thinking Red should start the LN Brush of your dreams thread.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Well, I probably deserve any reciprocal trash talk I receive from Stef.

Don't knock it til you've tried it, and I've tried it my friend. But I'll never watch WWE with Lysdexic again.


----------



## ErikF

Is anyone turning their own bolts and nuts on a metal lathe? I realized the endless frustration I would most likely be experiencing if I attempted to fine tune my drill press to make truly centered holes for a tap and the uneven thickness my poor patients would get me….so I have a mini lathe on order. I'm excited so I thought I would share. Next upgrade will be an actual milling machine with a slitter. Here is my "big ripper".


----------



## BigRedKnothead

That thing's a beast! I've been admiring your saws from afar Erik. I was bummed I didn't have any extra socket chisels for your trade offer earlier.


----------



## Armandhammer

So, how difficult is it to repair a chipped handle on a saw? By chipped I mean part of the horns chipped off. Is it even worth repairing on a non-collector saw or should I just round them off smooth?


----------



## ErikF

I'll be building another swap saw in the future so keep your eyes open for another offer. The last one is in the hands of a L J (bbrown). I have been on a chisel collecting thing lately and find myself spending more and more time wandering around our local swap meet looking for neglected chisels and saws. Not a lot of luck lately but at least its warm year round out here so there is always next weekend! Happy saw obsessing.


----------



## donwilwol

Eric, if you work your way back on this thread there was a discussion about making saw nuts and bolts.
I agree your saws looks fantastic.

Armandhammer, there are lots of blogs about adding horns, with several posted through out this thread. I'm on my phone or I'd post some links.


----------



## summerfi

A&H - See this. It's worth the effort.


----------



## Armandhammer

Wow! That's excellent work. I'm getting a thumbhole rip saw for a good price, only issue is the top horn is chipped off. Not even that bad but likely enough that it'll bug me some. Once I get it and evaluate it closer I'll figure out what it needs and if it's something I can do now or if it'll have to wait until I'm better with wood. I'll definitely post up some pics when it gets here too. There's also a No.7 I'm looking at that's suffered the same injury that needs some rehab.

Here's a not great shot of the handle and damage…I had to blow it up a little but when I get the saw I'll take better shots so that maybe I can get some help with a game plan…

The No. 7 has the same damage but on the bottom horn.


----------



## Slyy

A&H - with a little practice I think you'd be able to easily get chip fixed! Always a good score to get a deal on what someone else my think of as a broken piece a poo, especially when you know you can make it better, much much better!

Erik - that thing is beastly! What is it filed? Looks rip, but of course it's hard to tell.


----------



## Tim457

Jake you're asking how his "Big *RIPPER*" is filed? I think it's cross cut.  Just messing with you.

That'll do the Roubo bench tenons no problem I'm sure, Erik. Nice saw.


----------



## Slyy

Tim - I invited that….. What I get for cramming soup and Lumberjocks into my 15 minute lunch time: inability to READ!!!


----------



## ErikF

Tim would be correct. It is filled rip at 10tpi and would be great for bench tenons but I haven't been able to pull myself away from the fun of saw building.


----------



## Slyy

Well I realized recently that Bob (Summerfi) is a bad influence. I had a recent d-8 I posted (first one new to me) that I've since decided I could really do it more justice. I had the thought to keep a bit more of its beat up weathered nature intact (left out in the horrible OK weather for who knows how long) but Bob's recent posts have given me a longing for gorgeous totes. Now I'm certainly not trying to suggest what I've done now is remotely comperable to Bob's fantastic work (and this is just the original beat up tote), but I am a lot happier with the results I've accomplished here.

What it looked like before and the "original" restore:

















I more or less just sanded down all the weathered portions of the tote, reshaped the holds to accommodate my liking of rounder edges and also increased the relief for finger and thumbs (both sets) in and around the thumbhole. Sanded to 1000 grit, several coats of natural Danish oil and two of minwax paste wax later and I feel happier:


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## lysdexic

Those don't even look like the same tote. Am I missing something here?


----------



## summerfi

Nice job Jake. Looks much better. Sorry about being a bad influence. ;-)


----------



## Slyy

Same one Scott. When I did the original version, I just sanded it with a foam sanding block. What didn't happen, I think, was I just didn't sand enough of the old dirty raised fibers from its weather exposure. This is obvious in the color difference. Honestly, I was just a candy aass about being aggressive enough with the refurb, this D-8 deserved more. 
I'm happy it turned out like it did and I also have a bit more confidence in dragging out "what lies beneath" in these old totes. 
Thx Bob, you're a gateway drug pusher-man! (Steppenwolf wrote your theme song)!


----------



## waho6o9

Phenomenal work Jake, very impressive.


----------



## terryR

Nice work, Jake. I'm sending ya one of my thumbholes…


----------



## Slyy

Thx fellas, working on the D-8 with broken horn right now, hoping I make look sorta okay!!


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Today's the first time I really went at it with a full sized hand saw in my shop. Made about a dozen crosscuts on SYP 2×10s with my Wally saw. Split my pencil line on darn near every one. She's a keeper. 








-
Sure could use some saw horses. They're already under way


----------



## Airframer

Forget the saw horse and build a saw bench.. you will not regret it!


----------



## Slyy

That Wally sure looks at home! Red, I gotta second AF, I think you know the one he means!!!


----------



## theoldfart

Red, from the Schwarz









Send you the plans if you want. (gotta find em first! 
There is a video of his assistant doing these in something like ten mins.

Edit HERE


----------



## Slyy

And in case you wNt options, here are the ones I referenced earlier:
Saw bench


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Lol. You guys got my back. I meant to saw BENCH. Schwarz woulda slapped the Irish Stout right out of my hand for that one. Ya, making a pair of saw benches like the ones Jake referenced:








-
If the railroad doesn't call, I might have them done by tomorrow


----------



## ToddJB

Irish Stout while on call, huh? Didn't you post a link not that long ago about a guy drinking while on call 

Edit: is that one of Ron's saws on the bench?


----------



## Slyy

I'm "hoping" I'll get the chance on the weekend to get a pair of these going as well!

Red - I read that as: slap the Irish right out of my hand!


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Not on call til tomorrow Todd. Hey, don't you worry about ol' Red. He's a big boy

A buddy brought me a sixer of Killian's Irish stout for cutting some boards. I had to see if they were good or not. It's five o'clock somewhere.


----------



## Slyy

Okay panel. Close to finishing up my ventral horn repair, the do of piece didn't quite match the color (grain was good though) of the original tote. My personal finish preference is natural color danish oil + paste wax. What might be a good way to get a bit of color match going on here?


----------



## summerfi

Jake, I've used oil stain to try to color match handle repairs, but it's hit or miss. The problem is, it's hard to predict what the color of the old wood will be when it has finish on it. It's also hard to conceal the glue/epoxy lines once finish is applied. They have a tendency to come out darker or lighter than the surrounding wood. You just have to take your best shot and run with it. One thing I like about using a wipe on poly finish is that I can continue using oil stains between coats, not so much as a stain but more of a glaze, to try to continue matching colors and concealing defects.

P.S. - It's nice the dorsal horn didn't need repair. Is the distal end blunted slightly? ;-)


----------



## Slyy

Thx Bob, figured if anyone around here had some tricks!
Haha, curse of working in surgery…. Best directional descriptors I know!
Also, not quite satisfied with the shape of the horn, so gonna work it a bit more with the files and paper today.


----------



## summerfi

Alrighty fellers, it's split-nut driver time again! The pretty ones you posted recently put my crude one to shame and was embarrassing. I knew I'd have to step up my game if I was going to hang with this crowd. So I went back to the drawing board and came up with a new, improved 2014 model. Brazilian rosewood, figured maple, a selection of bits in different sizes, brass accents (or is that 14k gold?) Such decadence! Maybe I have too much time on my hands. Here's one pic, but there are more on this project.


----------



## planepassion

Summerfi, that is one sweet screwdriver you've assembled.


----------



## lysdexic




----------



## chrisstef

Is that on a wormy chestnut plank to boot Bob?

I second scotts sentiment.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Looks like it belonged to Henry VIII. Left us in the dust there Bob;-)


----------



## donwilwol

So, to take up some of that extra time, i'll send my address, make it just like that!


----------



## summerfi

Stef - yep, good eye. That plank was a part of my grandma's house until sometime in the 1950's. I'm saving it for just the right project.


----------



## Slyy

Bob - I think we all kinda think along Scotty's line: you stepped up about 500 notches!!!


----------



## summerfi

Thanks guys. I approached this as kind of a fun and whimsical project. Not something I would do every day, but once in a while you gotta get extravagant. Hmmm, now if the government pays $200 for a standard hammer, I wonder what they would give me for this baby.


----------



## Airframer

We don't use split nut saws for Gov work anymore unfortunately.. however we ARE able to get Made In USA Nicholson files still somehow. Our metal fabrication box at work is full of them and they are all only a couple years old lol.


----------



## terryR

That's an awesome driver, Bob, wish you were in on the Tool Swap! I agree with Don, make mine the same, you need my snail mail addy?


----------



## summerfi

Here's another British saw restoration. This is a 26" 6 ppi rip saw stamped C. Woollen, Sheffield. This is what's called a "branded" saw, meaning that the name stamped on the plate is the seller rather than the maker. Charles Woollen was a hardware dealer (ironmonger) in Sheffield from the early 1840's until his death in 1888. It is known that Thomas Sheldon & Son made Wollen's saws during at least part of this time, so this saw may have been made by them. I suspect this saw was made during the latter part of Wollen's tenure. As you can see, it has the flat bottom "London Flat" handle pattern that was common on late 18th and early 19th century British saws, but continued by some makers until the early 1900's. This saw has two original split nut screws and one each of my homemade split nut screws and medallions.

I'm getting more saws than I need, and this is one I would probably sell. Send me a PM if you want to talk about it.


----------



## donwilwol

Jeez Bob, between you and Andy, I can't figure out how you guys get them looking so good.


----------



## Tim457

Bob that's fantastic. Where are you finding all these?


----------



## summerfi

Don - considering how nice your planes look, I don't think I know any secrets you don't know.

Tim - ebay is my friend…but I'm very selective and let the overpriced ones go.


----------



## Slyy

Impeccable work as always Bob! I'd love to find some Brits locally, but no luck yet.


----------



## ColonelTravis

Posted this in the Miter Box thread (Brad and Ian have chimed in there), sorry for doubling up but maybe someone here who doesn't go there might see this. Wife picked up for me this miter box and saw for $10 at an estate sale:



















E. C. Atkins was in Indianapolis, so that could very well be the source of this saw. Anyone know anything different, or could add to it, etc.?


----------



## summerfi

Nice find Col. Sheffield Saw Works was the name of Atkins' factory in Indianapolis, and Sheffield was one of the brand names they used. Atkins/Sheffield are very good saws. The name confuses a lot of people though. There's a person who has been advertising a Sheffield saw over and over on ebay, claiming it came from England. I'm not sure that confusion was unintended on Atkins' part. He was playing off the good reputation of British saws.


----------



## ColonelTravis

Thanks Bob, that was the consensus in the other thread. Now it's on to cleaning it all up and getting it sharp.


----------



## Slyy

Excellent combo you pick up there ColT! I've got a couple Atkins xcut saws. They all seem very good quality!


----------



## bandit571

Let's see IF some of these will actually load









The Jointah Plane









My "rip saw" set up. An old Sears Craftsman saw. And a look at the BIG shop I work out of









Once these are ripped down a bit, then I can work on the faces. Nice grain??


----------



## bandit571

Hmmm, thought it was in a different post, oh well That "old" saw is almost as old as I am…


----------



## ColonelTravis

Any changes in the quality saw file world? Just ordered some Bahco files since people don't seem to think they suck.


----------



## planepassion

I think that's a good start CT. Use them, then share your experience with us. I've been using some Grobet files from Lie-Nielsen and the edged has performed and held up well so far after a few sharpenings. The shipping fees were outrageous so I'll either go to LV or TFWW next time. I have some vintage Nicholsons that I pick up at estate sales when I can find them and they also perform ok. I stay away from the ones made in Mexico because the edges don't last nary one sharpening.


----------



## Tim457

Did you find a good deal on the Bahco's with shipping Travis?


----------



## ColonelTravis

Tim, I found them on SJ Discount Tools and they seem to be a good price compared to everything the various woodworking sites sell. I got 4" Double Xtra Slims for $5.39 each. I had read on this site elsewhere that someone ordered them from the same place and the website was wrong and that they did not have the Bahco files they ordered. I haven't gotten an email that says that, just a receipt so I assume it's a good order. Until it's shipped, we'll see….


----------



## jordanp

I'm going to try some of those Bahco files as well.


----------



## chrisstef

I was that guy Colonel. I think I had talked about it in Andy's saw blog/thread. They couldn't come through for me but hopefully itll be different for you. Id certainly give them another chance on getting some Bahco's.


----------



## ColonelTravis

Oh yeah, I remember your ordeal with McMaster-Carr. Man, you've had some crappy luck with files. I signed the file petition, really is a sad state of affairs out there.

Andy's a been great resource. I was watching his 2-hour sharpening video last night, absolutely mesmerized.


----------



## Tim457

Let us know how it goes Travis. That site has good prices and a pretty good selection, even the larger 7-10" ones you need for 3-4 ppi saws. Paul Sellers was happy with the Bahco's but mentioned they moved production to Portugal so they may not be as good. Probably not as bad as the others.

Wait this SJ tools was where you got stiffed from stef?


----------



## chrisstef

Yes and no Tim. They didn't take my money so I wasn't "stiffed" but they didn't have the files that they said they had. There were no Bahco's to be found on their shelves.


----------



## DocBailey

resellerratings.com

is a site for ranking and reviewing vendors (not just tool vendors)
Obviously if no one has taken the time to share their experiences with a particular vendor, then there will be no rating available.
As it happens, SJ tools is in there along with several reviews and an overall rating.

Something to keep in mind before trying out new-to-you/unknown vendors.


----------



## Tim457

Good tip Doc.


----------



## ColonelTravis

Never heard of that site, Doc. Thanks. Apparently SJ thoroughly sucks and I might lose my money! Huzzah!


----------



## chrisstef

Just keep an eye on tour account CT. While i didnt get the files, i wasnt ever charged FYI.


----------



## ColonelTravis

Avoid SJ Discount Tools like the plague. I emailed them and asked if they even had the files.

Nope!

They said - "We do source these and are checking stock as they are not in inventory at this time."

What the hell? You look out for the files whenever you, ah, get the chance? Gee, so do I. We're doing the same job except I don't tell everyone I've got them when I don't. Wonder when you were going to fill me in on the news, SJ?

Canceled my order. I told them that had I known about so many negative reviews I never would have ordered in the first place. They said they were under new management since all the negative reviews. I find that to be BS. If not, the new management sucks as much as the old one.


----------



## Tim457

Haha new management pulling the same trick of putting stuff on their website they don't have. New management my a$$. If they had new management with half a brain they'd close the whole place down and start over building a better reputation.


----------



## chrisstef

Im convinced they claim having every tool under the sun only to draw traffic to the site. Maybe they've got 1 in 10 tools that are ordered. Shady. Thumbs down.


----------



## Oldsaxon

That pile of rusty tools in the OP reminds me of the work I do on Tuesdays. I volunteer at a charity called "Tools For Self Reliance - Cymru" We take donated tools (usually from the back of some garage or other) and rub the rust off and send them to Tanzania where some very thankful craftsmen put them back into service. It's an amazing service and it makes a huge difference to the craftsmen that receive the tools.

We "refurbish" them we don't restore them, so our work, though not bad, is certainly not to this standard. I have spotted a few old (quite old) Spear and Jackson tenon saws and Record planes I may grab outta the bin to do this kind of work to but so far, still busy just trying to get my new shop organised enough to get a few projects done for me.


----------



## chrisstef

Spear & Jackson … in a bin … Ill trade you one full box of worn tools for such a tasty saw.


----------



## Oldsaxon

We got six a few weeks back. Dad dies and the kids were clearing them out. They were mint and the money we raised selling them here in the UK went a long way to helping our efforts but there wasn't one of us wondering if we parked the car close enough could we make a clean dash.

Most of our donated tools are pretty rough, but S&J saws just never get old and yes, they are in a bin with a lot of other very worthy saws.


----------



## donwilwol

We'll need some picture evidence of these activities of course. Especially the Spear & Jackson … in a bin stuff!


----------



## Oldsaxon

I'll do a blog when I have some free time and enough "Picture evidence"


----------



## Oldsaxon

I should say, too, that we don't give these tools away. The craftsmen in Tanzania have to buy them. It's cheap by our standards but not so much by theirs. The costs mean we only send tools to people that are committed and we get tools back from them. Adzes, saws, things they make…we sell them as Fair Trade tools at village fairs and such to help fund our efforts. It's a sort of micro-financing…I'm very pleased with both the joy of working with these lovely tools and the change it makes in the villages and hamlets that receive them.

Enough, I didn't want to steal the thread…


----------



## Magnum

Bought at a Garage Sale a year or so ago. Really BAD SHAPE! Couldn't make out the Makers Name.

Cleaned them up, along with the Draw Knife and just got them back from Sharpening.

Will be using them.


----------



## Tim457

That's pretty cool Old Saxon. There's a place in the States that does a little similar that I saw from an episode of the Woodwright's shop. Wow nice save then Rick.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Got the Woollen rip saw I bought from LJ Summerfi in the the mail today. Now I really can't wait to get my saw benches done. Beautiful saw, and the sharpening job is masterful. Thank you so much Bob.


----------



## Slyy

Great saw and some nice saw bench tease too Red!


----------



## planepassion

BRK…OMG…Bob…Wow.


----------



## summerfi

Glad the saw arrived safely Red, and glad you like it. Now we expect to see some magic happening in your shop! Nice saw bench too.


----------



## Armandhammer

That is a darn nice looking saw. I'm still looking for a nice rip saw to go with my x-cut saw I got from Wally if anyone has something they are interested in getting rid of.


----------



## bandit571

Tenon saw in use









Trying to get something done, I hope









As for crosscuts,wellllll


----------



## summerfi

Like my new saw I bought on ebay today? Purty ain't she? Anyone recognize what it is?
.


----------



## Slyy

Coast of Maine and a lighthouse?


----------



## DocBailey

Harvey Peace?


----------



## summerfi

Yep Doc, under all that oil paint lies a Harvey W. Peace. It's one of their Perfection line, but I don't know yet if it's a P47 or P37. It's a good reminder that all old tools are not found in the old tool department. This one was in the "art" category. It was a bit of a risk buying it because there was only one picture and you can't tell much about the condition of the plate. But for $10 I was willing to take the risk. Apparently no one else saw it there or recognized what it was because I was the only bidder. Can't wait to get it cleaned up and repair the handle.

I've got a pretty good selection of British saws now and I'd like to start picking up more old Americans. What I'll be looking for is something different though. I have Disstons, Simonds, Atkins, and now a Peace. Id like to get a Richardson, Bishop, WMC, and maybe some other less common ones. I have another cool old American on the way, but I won't tell you what it is until it gets here.

Jake - Beauty is only skin deep. Gotta learn to look deeper man. ;-)


----------



## DocBailey

Bob,

I believe you have a P47 there.
I, too, have acquired many of my saws by looking in odd places and buying "little-known" manufacturers.
Here's hoping that everything's in order once you get it.


----------



## DonBroussard

@Bob-I think it's a shameful painting of Pemaquid Point Lighthouse on a beautiful vintage saw. I hope the lighthouse comes off and reveals a nice clear etch. That top horn needs a little loving too.


----------



## summerfi

Right you are Don. Good ID.


----------



## ColonelTravis

I don't get saw paintings as much as saw painters don't get saws.


----------



## summerfi

I don't mind it as long as the painting is good and the saw is not. But not on a quality vintage saw. That's like painting a smiley face on Mona Lisa.


----------



## Tim457

The only good news is the paint should be protecting the steel as long as they didn't paint over rust.

That's quite an ID Don, where did you pull that from?


----------



## john2005

That's a handsome saw ya sent 'Ol Red there Bob.


----------



## summerfi

Thanks John. I hope it serves him well.


----------



## DonBroussard

@Tim-With all the experience I have identifying lighthouses in Louisiana, it was a cinch! Actually, my wife and I visited Pemaquid Point during a visit to Maine several years ago, and the saw painting looked familiar. Just a lucky guess, I guess.


----------



## ColonelTravis

Maybe I've missed this technique from others, and if I did, sorry, but Bob I must say that you (and anyone else) have a found a genius way here to get old saws.


----------



## summerfi

Col. - I envy those who live in areas where there are lots of old tools. I don't have that here. But since I'm retired and have plenty of time (it's nice, trust me) I peruse ebay throughout the day. I have to be selective though. I pass on lots of saws that I'd love to have, simply because the price is ridiculous. I have to look for saws that have flaws that others pass on, but that I know I can fix. I also look for saws that others don't recognize their value, but having done my research, I see the value and potential. That's my technique, and it seems to work pretty well for me. Mind you, I'd have a hard time making a profit if I chose to sell most of those saws. It's a labor of love, not of profit.


----------



## summerfi

I've put together a list of saws that I have for sale. There are currently 7 saws on the list. If you'd like a copy, send me a PM.


----------



## Pezking7p

Hi. My name is Pezking, and I'm addicted to hand tools.

I started woodworking thinking "hey, I can make some furniture pieces, all I need is a table saw and a jointer and my handy drill and away we go."

But it wasn't long before the power tools weren't enough… Yah at first I was just supplementing my power tool usage. I would use some chisels to clean up a joint, or a plane to remove saw marks. But soon I would find myself sharpening just to take the edge off, or planing wood just to see the shavings pile up. Now I find myself needing more; sharpening no longer takes the edge off my need, and the chisels and planes seem to fuel my desire rather than sate it. I tell myself if I just had a good backsaw I could get that feeling back and I wouldn't need to use the hand tools so much. But I know deep inside that what I have is a sickness. The saws will only lead to vises, and benches (who can say how many benches a person truly needs?), and all manner of vintage measuring tools.

So I came here to find people who understand my disease, rather than scoffing when I try to show them antique tools on ebay. And maybe check out some sweet saw pics


----------



## Slyy

Pez you'll fit in here. We're a group of like minded individuals and we are (to a last man/woman) ENABLERS! You'll find no relief or respite from your affliction here, only further reinforcement for your problem!


----------



## waho6o9

You're at the right place talking with the right people Pezking,

welcome home.


----------



## Wally331

Whats going on everyone? It's been awhile since I actually posted here, I been very busy with this









As well as with finals, swimming conference, and of course making saws. I just finished toothing a saw I'm making for JordanP tonight and I'm hoping to finish everything up withing the next week. Toothing an 8 point 24 inch saw with a dull file is not fun. I'm ordering two boxes from grammercy as we speak so fingers crossed that they are good.

Bob, your handles are beautiful, and of course the story behind the wood is just as nice. I envy your collection man, I'd definitely have a hard time letting those beauties go. Also your screwdriver is quite likely the most beautiful split-nut driver that has even come into existence.

Red, that saw bench is coming along great, I'm planning on building one exactly like it to go along with my other one. I've got some commissions to finish first though, including a murphy bed so who knows when I will complete that project haha.

ErikF- you make some nice saws man, how thick is the plate on those 16 inch saws? I'm guessing something like .32, just to keep it from flexing like crazy?

And lastly shampeon, interesting saw, any idea on how old it is? Newer then the 50's? does it still have a taper grind?


----------



## summerfi

Wally, that's a sweet looking hall tree. You really do nice work on everything, not just saws. You must have an understanding mom to let you do glue ups in the house too. ;-) BTW, the gentleman above, Mr. Pez, is looking for a backsaw. I sent him your way today, and I hope the two of you can strike a deal.

Man that Padauk makes me drool.


----------



## Slyy

Dang Wally, I can only imagine what my wife would say about some bar clamps on her carpet, let alone my parents!!
Gotta say though that's looking nice, I'm not surprised your furniture is similar quality to your saws!


----------



## dbray45

Dang Pez - I think I am at the bench stage - moving to the next level a Chevelet.


----------



## terryR

Welcome, Pez, we are "all as sad as each other" here! The more sick patients on these forums, the more normal I feel…

"hey, how much ya want for those rusty 4" dividers?" I just asked my best friend IRL a few days ago while working in his shop on our Jeep. Starretts, in multiples, just hanging on the pegboard. Arrrgghh!!! I just paid $33 for a Sargent made pair of 6" dividers on fleaBay. Gonna try to talk my buddy out of some multiples in the future! 

OK, back to saws…completely un-restored…and STILL barely used…cost the exact same as a new crown I just had glued in Monday…The crown is getting coffee stained as we speak…may as well put some use marks on the BA saw, huh?


----------



## chrisstef

Please put some marks on the BA Terry. Ive got a backsaw thing going on right now that's almost incurable. I haven't bought a saw in 2 weeks and im getting itchy here boys. As soon as I finish up a small project I think im on to multiple saw restorations. Couple of thumbholes, an early 7, and a Langdon miter box saw are in queue.


----------



## planepassion

TR, that's a sweet BA. Is that cherry and black niter? And did you build a stand for it?


----------



## terryR

Thanks, Brad. The tote is Texas Mesquite…nicer in person! The stand is just for displaying my baskets when vending, thought it looked appropriate for the new BA? LOL.

When Mark Harrell saw that photo he used a few 4 letter words to prompt me to get that saw off the easel and into some hardwood!

Stef, will cut something with it today in honor of you! Probably my finger the way this week is going! LOL


----------



## CL810

Terry, you're killing me! My BA 10" carcase saw was due January 24th. Should be here any day.


----------



## planepassion

TR, I love the mesquite handle. I think it's the most attractive of all Mark's offerings. When I get my own 14" sash saw from him one day, I'm going to go with mesquite.

CL810, can't wait to see your BA pics posted here.


----------



## chrisstef

Saw junkies …. anyone tried out the ICS saw files?
http://www.icscuttingtools.com/catalog/page_354.pdf

I had no idea they made files. We've got a concrete cutting chainsaw and hydraulic power unit by them here at work that's been pretty solid in a tough environment.

Im thinking about scooping $20 worth up and giving them a run.


----------



## NinjaAssassin

They look pretty inexpensive compared to other "known-good" brands. Good find. If you get some, let us know what you think.


----------



## shampeon

Wally: I'm thinking the Jarnbirger saw is post-'50s. But the plate is definitely tapered.


----------



## chrisstef

Yea they appear to be a buck or 2 cheaper than the rest of the lot out there. Once I finish up this little project ive been working ill buy some and get after a few saws with them. They offer them in a black oxide finish and a black tang finish. Im pretty downsy when it comes to metal working but here's the description from their site:

A black finish is produced by immersing tool in a hot oxidizing salt solution. During this treatment all grinding stresses are relieved to improve toughness of tool. Finish is rust resistant and helps prevent metal to metal contact in machining operations. This finish reduces galling and chip welding and enables tool surface to absorb more lubricant.

Used for free machining steels, low carbon steels, stainless steels, and ferrous metals (iron based).

Any thoughts out there on this process? Seems like it wouldn't matter much in terms of filing a saw considering no lubricant is used?


----------



## donwilwol

Once I finish up this little project ive been working

I'm getting older you know. I may not have that long!


----------



## chrisstef

Lol Don, you phawker. Well played old boy. 

I jus tsent an email over to ICS asking if the black oxide coating would be redundant for the application of files hand saws. I have my suspicion that it is but we shall see what they've got to say.


----------



## summerfi

That sounds sort of like a Parkerized finish. I'm not sure what the implications would be for a file. Give them a try and report back.


----------



## lysdexic

^Terry

Ha. That is exactly the options I picked for my BA 12" hybrid. The mesquite handle is awesome and I was impressed that Mark asked how big my hand was (and still is). THat lead to a larger handle and a larger wait time but well worth it.

Look familiar.


----------



## lysdexic

Also, Stef, you wanted to see pics of the Tyzack !4" that I still need to restore. I will as soon as you make me a split-nut driver :^)


----------



## summerfi

That's an especially nice piece of beech in that Tyzack handle, and it looks like the screws have never been loosened. Gotta love them elephant saws.


----------



## lysdexic

I purchased it from the Woodwright's School/Store


----------



## planepassion

lysdexic. Woweee! The mesquite it is my sawyer brothers. What is the complementary finish you chose for the spine and nuts? Open handle…very well executed.

And a 14" sash saw as well. Very nice. The flecking in that beech handle immediately caught my eye. The original finish looks to be holding pretty well so you may just decide to lightly clean off the dirt and grime instead of sanding the handle. My gosh. I can just see the flecking pop once you get her spruced up.


----------



## lysdexic

Brad, it has been a while but I think the nuts and medallion are niter blued and the spline is black pearl nickel - just like Terry's it turns out.

I was quite tempted by the Walnut and stainless. Bling.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Man, you guys are some bad axes..










I think the copper is pimp too. The customizing option is brilliant.


----------



## chrisstef

The beech on that Tyzack along with the elephant logo just does somethin for me. Split nuts and im in love. Ive git my eye out for an open handled, split nut, dovetailer but will need to wait to pull the trigger until i re-up on some fun money. Needs me a good scrap job.


----------



## planepassion

Copper and walnut. You don't see that…well…never. I agree BRK, the customization option was brilliant marketing on BA's part. Men tend to gravitate towards shiny objects after all…


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Hey! I like copper and walnut


----------



## chrisstef

You burnt your hot dogs Red ^


----------



## terryR

+1 to the Mesquite and black pearl nickel…that's a sweet saw, Lys! You need a split nut driver? Or just yanking Stef's chain? LOL

The copper is gorgeous, too, although I like the back and nuts to match, please. And my coffee black…

Won't be too long till Wally has the same metals for hardware.


----------



## jordanp

Wally is that my saw? are you posting teasers?


----------



## Pezking7p

Lysdexic I know you told me about it, but I didn't realize until I saw your post and looked that I live 45 minutes from the woodwright school/store. Umm, score?


----------



## lysdexic

Yea Pez. Like I be sayin, goes to the Woodwrights web site and be signing up for "how to be cool in my 30's, drank sum malt licker after the course and then be going' up to Ed at the store up above and tell him you love his tool and you is will in' to pay him money.

Seriously,

You are a fool not to take advantage of the resources one hour down the road.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

More props to Wally. I was having some issues with the performance of my backsaw. Wally resharpened it…and now she saws like buddah! 
Yep, his customer service is pretty darn good. I will be leaving a favorable report with the Better Business Bureau.


----------



## chrisstef

What turned out to be the issue Red? Howd he fix ya up? 
If ya dont mind me askin that is.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Wally would probably better to answer that Stef. I don't know enough about saw sharpening. It cut kinda slow. Either way, it's a lot better.

I catch myself staring and the handle on that thing.


----------



## Pezking7p

Red, I can't stop staring myself. Who's saw is that? I really like the bottom of the handle.


----------



## Wally331

it may or may not be your saw Jordan  Its coming along quite well btw, I for one can't wait to use it before I send it out.

Stef, this issue was that I jointed the saw right before sending it out, and when I went for the final sharpening I had apparently left a couple of teeth with a tiny flat on the top. I just had to take a stroke or two on each tooth to bring them down correctly, and I increased the rake angle to something more like 2-3 degrees. I can't believe I let it happen but I think I've made everything right now.

I've been thinking about getting some mesquite myself, how hard would you all say it is? Tougher then say a padauk? Or even close to hard maple? It has a beautiful color and I'm sure it ages quite nicely too.

What is your opinion on copper backs for saws? I could offer it but I am wondering about strength. Could I stay with a 3/16 back or would I have to move up to 1/4? Is milling about the same as brass? A little faster perhaps?
I don't however think I'll be moving to steel backs anytime soon haha, the feedrate for brass is slow enough and I have extremely limited time on the mill.

Forgive me for all the questions, but if any of you have any experience with this, do you think that I could approach a local machine shop about turning split nuts out of brass and steel? Any ideas on what that would cost, for say a batch of 50 or 100 nuts?


----------



## CL810

Wally they are both 950 on the Janka scale. BTW, I'm like red in that I can't stop looking at your saw handles.


----------



## Tim457

Wally (It's Chris right?), milling copper can vary a lot depending on the alloy. Pure copper can be a real pain because it's so soft people describe it as gummy. There's such a thing as free machining copper, but I don't know if you could source that. Here's a couple links:
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/machining-copper-171323/
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/machining-copper-199333/


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Pez- it's a Wally saw. The handles are padauk.


----------



## Pezking7p

Wally, copper will probably be about the same stiffness as the brass. Machining will be similar, too. In regards to machine shops making split nuts, I'm guessing it's going to be costly. I could be wrong though. Make sure you let them know that cost is important and that you'll probably be back to buy more in the future.


----------



## chrisstef

I hope ya know i wasnt tryin to dig on ya Wally. I was trying to answer a question in my head about what rake on a rip saw tended to be a pain for a user. I had anticipated that the saw was hard to start. It then got ne to thinking if Red's 52" long arm stroke would play a part in a saw being unwieldly.


----------



## ErikF

Wally,

I have used copper for a couple saws and there are a few differences from the brass, at least with what I have used from McMaster-Carr. It bends easier than brass and has been harder for me to mill (I don't have a horizontal mill) with my setup, probably a lot easier if you are working with the right equipment. I also just purchased a metal lathe and am schooling myself up on making all of the necessary hardware. I was able to turn out a good amount of nuts after a few hours of messing with it so it might be a good idea for you. I was able to pick one up from harborfreight with a coupon for $400.

And I do use a .032" plate on saws with that much depth. Way too much flex with thin plates at that depth.


----------



## summerfi

Wally, have you thought about casting split-nuts and screws like the originals were made? I sent out a couple inquiries tonight about having a brass foundry cast some medallions for me. It may prove cost prohibitive, but I'm anxious to find out. If casting split nuts is feasible, perhaps a bunch of us could place a batch order to bring the cost down.


----------



## ErikF

Would a custom made die in a fly press work for medallions?


----------



## summerfi

Erik, I don't know anything about that, but I'm interested in learning. Can you explain it further or refer me to something to read?


----------



## ErikF

I believe the I read it on the eccentric tool maker site. I was looking into his method of using a fly press to press/shear the teeth into a saw plate using a die and am pretty sure he mentions using it to stamp his medallions. I read it awhile back and don't recall the exact details. I know you can buy smaller dies to stamp brass by hand using only a hammer, I actually have one of these hammer striking dies and will be testing it on some brass in the near future. If it works well I would imagine a fly press would have no problem stamping a medallion as long as it isn't anything too crazy


----------



## summerfi

I just looked at ply presses on youtube. Any idea how you would get a die made for a medallion?


----------



## BigRedKnothead

I think I found Wally's future medallion








Perfect.


----------



## summerfi

^ Now that's funny.


----------



## Wally331

Haha Red, I'd be the new tyzack sons and turner with that. I know I've been promising cast medallions for a long time haha, trust me, they will get made eventually. They are pretty simple, they cay C. R. LAUDOLFF at the top, and WISCO at the bottom, I'm thinking about butting an outline of Wisconsin in the middle, but I think I need something manlier . Maybe a no. 8 jointer? I know that Stef would appreciate that haha.

Anyways, according to the disstonian institute, iirc, Disston used to cast their medallions in their early years, but due to them being somewhat weak they moved on to stamping the brass. A press and die would be sweet, though your probably looking at around 200-300 just for a custom stamp. I will have to do lost wax casting on my medallions due to their fine detail so that will be pretty time consuming, and have fairly small quantities. Perhaps engraving is another option but I have no knowledge with that as of yet. However, I could just buy a cheap set of letter stamps from harbor freight and stamp the brass back and stay with blank split-nuts.

This summer I may buy a foley retooother for making bigger handsaws considering you basically wear a file completely smooth when you tooth a 26 inch saw. May offer sharpening services too, I will see what happens in the next few months though.


----------



## Slyy

Wally it's great to see how you're progressing! Gotta find the time to pick me up a Wally! Keep the good work going, you're on an impressive path I think. Www.wallyinstitute.com 100 years from now on YOUR history!


----------



## Pezking7p

Wally. You should study metallurgical engineering (materials engineering). Iowa State has a fantastic program but I might be biased 

All this talk is getting me excited about making stuff.


----------



## donwilwol

Wally, have you started signing your saws yet?


----------



## summerfi

Well guys, no more saw restores for me for awhile. Tomorrow morning I report to the hospital for some restoration on myself. I'm having my left foot remodeled. Along with a couple other procedures (involving, I believe, a rat tail rasp, some 220 grit sandpaper, and super glue), the doc will saw my heelbone in two, cut out a wedge of bone to change the angle, slide the severed part over and screw it back on. I hope he's been practicing his crosscuts. I wonder if he'll use a carcass saw? (pun intended). The worst part is, I won't see the inside of my shop for at least 3 months due to the long recovery period. At least I'll still be able to monitor ebay and stock up on saws for later. And of course you guys here on LJ will continue to keep me entertained. Wish me luck!


----------



## terryR

Holy crap, ErikF, you are turning split nuts on a metal lathe? Sounds like I'm wasting my time and brass! How much you want for a pair?

Hey, Wally, I meant to pass along to you earlier…look at how Harvey Peace added the steel piece to the lamb's tongue, and stamped it with patent dates. Maybe a good place for your signature until you can make medallions? Also, love the flexed biceps on the Peace medallion! LOL Also, don't discount pretty walnut for a tote…even ebonized.

Edit: Bob, I bet the ortho has expensive German saws that we would drool over! LOL. Best of luck, buddy!


----------



## Pezking7p

Bob, they probably will use a saw! I had to study some orthopedic surgery once for a project…it's more akin to home remodeling than surgery. I swear one of the videos I watched involved a craftsman plug in drill and a fat max.

My dad underwent the same procedure on both his heels last year. I believe it was to change the point where his Achilles' tendon attaches? He spent a lot of time in a chair so I hope you've got a good la-z-boy.


----------



## theoldfart

Good luck with the refurb Bob. We of course will need before and after pics as well as a full report! I'm sure you could come up with a mini saw sharpening station that overhangs the recliner!
best wishes ;0)


----------



## summerfi

Pez - when I had a back fusion a couple years ago I asked the doc what kind of tools he uses. He said pretty much the same things you could get at Home Depot - saws, hammers, chisels and the like - just a fancier grade.


----------



## donwilwol

Best of luck Bob. It certainly doesn't sound as it will be as much fun as a saw restoration. Will he be using a saw you sharpened?


----------



## ErikF

Terry- I have only had the lathe for a few days now and have not moved to the part where I slot the nuts but I think I have a pretty solid plan for that part. Once I get my process down I'll let you know and can send you a couple for whatever the material runs.

Good luck, Bob.


----------



## DanKrager

I used to work as a pattern cutter for Josten's Jewelry, basically hand engraving a soft metal plate to be traced by the pantograph operators. They cut the pattern at a 10:1 reduction into the top of an annealed block of high grade steel. When finished, hand toolers smoothed the die and sent it into the ovens for hardening. Then the die was mounted in a trip hammer press, a small piece of gold, brass, or other metal was laid on the die and the hammer tripped. BANG! There was a complete fully detailed medallion with flash around the perimeter that was trimmed off in a foot press on another die. Once the setup was done, hundreds could be made in a very short time, but it took a lot of machinery and man power to get there. 
A former co-worker still does die work and can be contacted after I check with him if you are interested. He bought almost all the tooling when Josten's downsized and sold out, including a 50 ton press that I watched turn a cheap pocket watch into a wafer about 0.002 thick and about 8" in diameter! (Could still read the time!) 
So, yes, once you get past the initial expense, stamping is fast and relatively cheap. 
DanK


----------



## summerfi

Dan - very interesting to learn about that process. Die making must require a lot of patience and some good eyes. I'd be very interested in your former co-worker's response.

Don - I should have offered the doc that option. Maybe he would have knocked $10 off my bill. LOL

Kevin - I have the before pic taken. Now just waiting for the after.

Thanks for the well wishes all. Not looking forward to this.


----------



## ErikF

Dan- I would be interested in his contact information if it's ok with him.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Ya Bob, sorry you gotta spend some time in the body shop again. Hope it goes well. We'll try to keep you entertained


----------



## Slyy

Don - surgery certainly is never anyone's first choice, but I wish you the best of luck and a speedy recovery!
Need to get on a few saw restored myself!


----------



## shampeon

Interesting stuff, Dan. Has hand-engraving/pantographing basically been replaced with CAD/CNC now?


----------



## shampeon

Wally: here's hoping the doc has a steady hand and adheres to "measure twice, cut once", and your recovery goes smoothly.


----------



## chrisstef

Best wishes on a quick recovery Bob.


----------



## Tim457

Best of luck on the refurb Bob. Kevin's idea is great. There has to be some smaller projects you can work on with a custom recliner bench. See if you can throw one together before you head out. Or maybe some carving, wouldn't even need a bench.


----------



## CL810

Best wishes for a speedy recovery Bob!


----------



## ErikF

Here is the first run of making split nuts and an experiment to see what kind of mark can be left with a hammer and die (it's a tree). Judging by the simple hammer and die method I think a good press would be sufficient but possibly a two part die depending on the amount of pressure you can get out of your press. Maybe just a bigger hammer and something to hold the die and medallion in place would be the ticket.

The nuts need to be polished up a little but I am happy with them. I used a setup on my drill press to slot them and it ended up being much easier and accurate than using a hacksaw. I'll take a few pictures of the setup later if anyone is interested.


----------



## DanKrager

Yes, CAD/CAM and CNC came shortly after I left for greener pastures. It was a most valuable experience. However, there is no replacement for the final, manual smoothing of the die. 
I've contacted my friend awaiting reply if he's interested.
Bob, glad there is someone with a fix. Just don't let them put your stuff in a vise! That's just awkward. Get well soon!
DanK


----------



## terryR

Erik, those look pretty impressive to me! very clean. Cannot wait till you get 'good' at it…of course, they won't be affordable then! LOL.

Ooooh, what I'd give for a combo lathe, mill, drill for some smithing! About $2500? Just to help re-build vintage saws and braces…oh, miter box parts, missing ( or accidentally through-drilled ) plane parts, exquisite bench bling, custom lever caps, tool chest hardware, chisel ferrules…stop me!


----------



## DanKrager

Terry, here ya go…! Naw, I'm not enabling. You just NEED one of these.
DanK


----------



## terryR

^sweet.
AND I don't have to worry about moisture content of brass, nickel, silver…


----------



## ErikF

Terry- are you just looking for a couple split nuts or are you needing the whole shebang? Nuts are easy and I could turn a few for you without a problem but I only have one tap size. I could start the hole with a starter bit and let you finish them off. The machines are addicting…I'm already wishing I had got a bigger lathe and have been scanning craigslist for a mill and believe it is very good for my wallet that I don't have a 220v outlet. I would love to get a used Bridgeport mill. I am hoping to pick up a fly press this weekend…how nice it would be to not hand file every tooth from scratch on a plate blank.


----------



## donwilwol

Ohhhhh I like that Dan!!


----------



## Tim457

That's actually surprisingly reasonable Dan. Like Terry, I'd love to be able to make all the odd parts I need for various hobbies and around the house. I hate throwing things out because one stupid piece is broken and the replacement part costs more than a whole new one. Of course if people say you'll spend as much again on tools and accessories for a wood lathe I'm sure that goes 10 times for a lathe, mill, drill combo.


----------



## waho6o9

Good luck on procedures Bob and may you have

a quick recovery.


----------



## Wally331

Good luck with the surgery Bob, your going to be itching to get back in the shop in a week or so, that will probably be the worst part!

Those split-nuts look really good Erik, I would love to see that setup on your drill-press. Is that medallion 1 inch I too have been looking for either a small vintage metal lathe or a small mill, but haven't had much luck. I think Shampeon had a little atlas or something from the 40's that would be perfect.

That is a really interesting process Dan, I wonder if you could buy a cheap metal engraver, and build a wooden panto-graph to put it in, like Matthias Wandel's, but with more of a reduction. Then just make a pattern yourself at 10 times normal scale. Harden it with mapp gas and you have a decent die. I sure would like to talk to your friend, even if he cannot do it he probably knows other people still in the industry.


----------



## DanKrager

Patience, people! His blood is southern (moves slowly) but you won't find a more knowledgeable machinist. He's actually a black powder collector, published expert, and historian of Illinois gunmakers. Worth waiting for, but I won't give him up until he says OK and how to do it. I'm fairly certain he still has all the machines including the pantographs.

Smithy used to make Super Shops, and I used to sell them for Tony Fox (of Shop Smith origin) back when they were known as Fox Super Shops. If you can find one, they make excellent metal lathes and mills. I have one fully equipped and wouldn't part with it. There was one for sale cheap near Mosquito, and I almost bit on it, but chickened out. Need space and 10 hours one way is a LONG haul. I saw one being used to mill auto engine heads.

Wally, it would be a stretch of my imagination to "make a pantograph" for this process. You'd be better off with something like a metal working Shopbot CNC thingy that can do 3D. It was a special skill to cut a smooth dome in the die with a 2D pantograph. How much MAPP would it take to cherry red a 3" cube of steel? It all started someplace so I guess you could do it with enough determination. Meantime, hire someone to gitterdone.
DanK


----------



## ErikF

Wally, here are a few pictures and a quick explanation. I squared a piece of scrap then used a marking gauge to run a straight reference line for me to drill out the pockets with a forstner bit. I ran the slot cutter down the line before putting the nuts in so it would be easy to adjust for height. After it is lined up put the nuts in the holes and put a piece of masking tape over them to prevent the cutter from pulling at the nuts. It's accurate and you can do a lot of nuts in one pass. Also, here are a few medallion I did today. A lathe is the way to go.


----------



## Wally331

Thanks for the explanation, I think I will give that a try, are you using a .32 slot cutter? I only have a .20 at the moment, but will be ordering more shortly. The finish on those medallions is excellent, I wish any of the teachers at my school actually knew how to use the metal lathes. They have like 6 massive industrial lathes, probably from the 50's or so. Beautiful machines.

Do any of you have good recommendations for videos on basic machining on lathes? I've been looking around on youtube but there is so much out there I don't even know where to start.


----------



## lysdexic

Bob - oscillating bone saw ( something like this one). They work just like a Fein.


----------



## summerfi

Scotty - Thanks, that really cheers me up. lol Is that made in China?

Erik - those nuts and medallions are looking good.


----------



## lysdexic

Naw, thats the best photo I could find. Ours are made by Stryker in Warsaw IN (I guess). An oscillating saw is used because it will cuts bone easily but cuts soft tissues like tendon, fat, nerve artery etc. with difficulty. The soft tissues just "jiggle" with the saw blade.


----------



## Slyy

Scotty's gettin' jiggy wit it!!!


----------



## terryR

Erik, your hardware looks great…you need a website to sell them and buy more tooling! LOL. Seriously, I only wanted a couple for a saw that is on the back burner so to speak. No hurries since SWMBO needs 4 goat birthing stalls built in the next 4 weeks. No, I'm not kidding! 

Let me measure the busted nuts I removed from the old saw tote, and I'll send you a PM…Thanks for sharing the photos of the slot cutter in the drill press…I would've used a handheld dremel, but not after seeing your results! Every shop needs a slot cutting, horizontal boring, lathe type tool, IMO…Still drooling over that Midas!!! But, I have to find a local school to teach me how to use all those levers and wheels…


----------



## BigRedKnothead

I have a buddy who was a decent woodworker. Somewhere along the way he took some metalworking classes at the local college and got hooked. He sold or traded most of his woodworking machinery for metal. I made him some furniture for in trade for his dust collector among other things.

Anyway, I have tough time getting into metalwork. But I bet it can be just as addictive for some….and very necessary for the aspiring toolmaker.


----------



## dbray45

It is all good - I have done some metal work including foundry, ornamental blacksmithing. In the summer, it can get toasty.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

My helper and I put our new saw benches to work today. She says, "Finally a bench my size."


----------



## planepassion

BRK,

And I say, "Finally, someone to sweep up the shavings, keep the glue pot warm and sharpen the chisels and irons." Every apprentice needs to start somewhere according to Schwarz' The Joiner and Cabinet Maker.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Yessir….and she's all for it. Actually, I showed her how Schwarz and his daughter built a box in that book….and my she has been on me ever since for us to do the same


----------



## theoldfart

Keep in mind Schwartz gave his daughter a bench as well!


----------



## ColonelTravis

Adorable photo there, Red.

Bob, wish you a speedy recovery. My mother-in-law had foot surgery, not the same as yours but it was a longish recovery time. She said it was a world of difference when done.


----------



## grfrazee

@Wally - you asked about mesquite few posts back. I used some for a pair of tenon saws I'm making. It can be a bit chippy but is quite hard. Also, it's one of the most stable woods that exists once dried and has a radial-to-tangential shrinkage ratio of almost 1.0.

I got mine from LJ BlueStingrayBoots. He was quite nice to deal with, and the wood turned out beautifully.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Kev- oh, she knows that too…lol.

Travis- don't be fooled. She's got a little shiner under one eye. The boys she wrestled with at our super bowl party fared worse.


----------



## planepassion

*sniffle*...*small tear in the corner of the eye* You must be so proud BRK. It warms the heart to see the daughter best the boys.

So, when are you going to start the box project?


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Probably this summer Brad. She's still a few years younger than Schwarz's girl. She still struggles pushing a plane and such. But she can saw a line!


----------



## jordanp

Roy Underhill with a lightsaber..










Carry on…..


----------



## bandit571

Must be trying to keep The Schwarz out of his shop???


----------



## ToddJB

Bandit - if you just intentionally tied Spaceballs and woodworking together you are forever my hero. If you were merely referring to Christopher - then you were accidentally a genius.

"May the Shwartz be with you!"


----------



## theoldfart

Ah, yogurt 'n lonestar. Maybe Stef as barf?


----------



## Airframer

Sounds fitting.. he is his own best friend after all..


----------



## jordanp

I just patted myself on the back. I did better than i thought photoshopping that lightsaber in his hand.


----------



## Slyy

All I know for is: I ain't gonna get the "special". No space alien chest burster for me thank you no.

Funny Kevin, you don't look druish…..


----------



## planepassion

jordanp, you did do an amazing job photoshopping in the light sabre. Doesn't even look like it. But there is something that I need to tell you. Roy Underhill is your father. No wait. Paris Hilton is your sister. Uhh, hold on now. I'll get this right in a minute.


----------



## Tim457

Nice one Jordan. I could be wrong, but I don't think that's from the actual episode that Roy paraphrases the this is your father's lightsaber line.  It's the spirit of woodcraft episode from the 2006-2007 season. Sorry can't get a link right now. He quotes Star Wars in other episodes too I think, it's pretty funny on a show about hand tools.


----------



## Pezking7p

I see your schwartz is as big as mine…


----------



## jordanp

Hehe Tim i think you are right.. that is either the spirit of woodworking episode or the Combination planes episode from this season.


----------



## terryR

Hey, is Roy using that lightsaber on that 45? Or is he comparing dadoes left behind by each tool?

Wow, I bet a mini-saber could come on handy in tight spots!

Yes…flow through you the Force must…clear your mind…oh damn, the batteries went dead again! LOL


----------



## jordanp

TerryR you haven't seen sharp until you've seen a plane iron sharpened by Roy Underhill with a lightsaber.
and yes that answers your question.


----------



## Wally331

Looks good Jordan, but who would win in a light saber fight between Roy and Norm? (I think this thread might be a bit biased…)

Here's a couple more pics of your new saw Jordan, all it needs is the brass and some fleam.


----------



## JayT

Wally, your saws look awesome! Keep developing that talent so 20 years from now we can all say, "We knew him when …..."

Oh, and of course Roy would win. Norm would be busy building a prototype and mentioning all his sponsors while Roy would just get to work.


----------



## jordanp

Yea Norm would be making a Jig for his sword and get clocked with 34" Beech Jointer Plane

*Chris* Wow she is shiny, My other wally saw might get jealous.

I am pushing my luck, still trying to explain to my wife why i bring a saw to bed at night.. I might not get away with bringing 2 of them. (><)


----------



## Airframer

You would have to deduct a bit of time for Roy to bandage up his thumb once he cut it off with the lightsaber but he would probably power through to a win anyway..


----------



## summerfi

*No pain, no gain….*


__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content










Here are my latest two saws. The bottom one is the Harvey Peace with the lighthouse painted on the other side. The plate is straight and not too rusty (at least not on this side) so I think it will clean up fine.

The top saw is a Bakewell. It's a little rustier and may have some pitting, and the plate is a little wavy, but still an interesting saw. Josiah Bakewell was born in England in 1820, and after serving a saw making apprenticeship, immigrated to the U.S. at the age of 21. He first settled in Boston, then moved to New York where he established his own saw making shop in 1845 under the name Bakewell & Co. It is said that his saws are "British saws made in America," because of the strong influence of his early years in England. In 1853, he joined two partners to form the company Wheeler, Madden, & Bakewell. They operated the Monhagen Saw Works at Middletown, NY. Bakewell left the company in 1859 and died in 1863 at age 43. After his departure, the company was then known as Wheeler, Madden, & Clemson. So, all of that means this saw was made between 1853 and 1859. The medallion says Bakewell & Co., and below that are the initials WMB for Wheeler, Madden, & Bakewell.


----------



## donwilwol

Happy healing Bob


----------



## chrisstef

What were they all out of pink leg warmers Bob? We all know that's more your style.

Glad to see ya made it back home, good luck on the mend buddy.


----------



## theoldfart

Bob, you need to paint those toenails buddy! Glad your home.


----------



## jordanp

*Bob*, heal up quick.. 
I wish you a speedy recovery..

*JayT* From my understanding they wouldn't even stop filming if he cut off a finger with his lightsaber. 
plus later on that night it would just grow it back… because that's how Roy rolls.


----------



## TerryDowning

I tried to sharpen my light saber but it cut my diamond stone in half (Sharp enough?)


----------



## theoldfart

Terry, were you using the Rick Moranis two handed low grip? Cuz if you weren't you could get hurt, jus sayin'


----------



## jordanp

*TD* you need to get that new Unobtainium Sharpening stone with the depleted uraniam core.
I hear they forge them in the center of dying stars. Now that's a conversation piece..


----------



## NinjaAssassin

Glad to see you posting again so soon, Bob. Heal up quick!


----------



## theoldfart

Jordan,don't you mean expensiveum? It come from a galaxy far away!


----------



## summerfi

Thanks guys!

Stef - No pink leg warmers, but I do have a silk stocking on my right leg to keep blood clots away. Do I get any points for that?

Kevin - I've already had offers to paint my toenails. I may just take my granddaughter up on that one.

There's no place like home. Glad to be back.


----------



## theoldfart

Bob, keep that smile going. Be careful, your granddaughter may put sparklies on your toes! If Stef or Hog see it you in deep doodoo.


----------



## summerfi

Saw Medallion Reference Guide. Add to it if you can.


----------



## Slyy

Glad to see you healing up Bob, wish you the best there, and not that you need it, but also the best on making those saws look beautiful!!!


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Thanks for putting that together Bob. I half expected you to be so doped up that you'd be drooling on your keyboard ….rather than blogging;-)


----------



## chrisstef

Bob drools spring steel.


----------



## jordanp

Spring steel? That's odd I drool pine spills.


----------



## Pezking7p

Glad to see you home safe, Bob. How's the leg today?

So I'm snowed in, I've been cruising the 'bay half the day and I'm real itchy to buy something old. Only problem is, I'm sort of clueless. Can someone comment on this saw/price combo? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Jackson-by-disston-Backsaw-12-/121274989731?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c3c8d7ca3


----------



## chrisstef

Jackson was a second line made by Disston i believe. Its a nice saw. At $40 id think its a touch high for a buy it now. Just my opinion though.


----------



## summerfi

Pez - Thanks. The leg is doing well. Not nearly as much pain as I expected. The worst part is I can't get around very well or do anything. Awkward trips back and forth to the bathroom is about it.

As for the Jackson backsaw, I recently sold one nearly identical except mine was all cleaned up and sharpened. It went for $46, which surprised me. That's about twice what I expected, so I would think the starting price of $20 is about right for a final price on that saw.


----------



## Pezking7p

Did they give you any pills, Bob? I sense a free form carving session coming up soon.

I'm sure this has been linked before but it probably bears another click.

http://two-lawyers-toolworks.blogspot.com


----------



## CL810

Pills and eBay….... What could go wrong?.

Have a speedy recovery Bob!


----------



## grfrazee

@Pezking - I bought a saw similar to that Jackson a while back on ebay. I think I got it for around $15-$20 shipped.


----------



## Pezking7p

Wow you guys get saws for a steal. I haven't seen anything like that yet so I guess I need to watch more closely.


----------



## Airframer

Today's rust hunt finds.

A couple Disstons for $10. Neither have split nuts but both have brass hardware. The top one has an 8 stamped in the heal and the bottom one has 11 stamped on it.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Public Service Announcement (because someone may need one…)



Love me some Tyzak.


----------



## summerfi

That's a bargain Smitty. Does it have a name on it? I have two or I would grab it.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Thanks, Bob. It does have a name, but it's not distinct at all.


----------



## Slyy

Gonna need some handle love there AF, but great pick for $10!


----------



## JayT

Good pickups, AF. I know you can make totes, so you'll be set. I did one more for practice before starting to worki on restorations of some of the vintage saws in my till


----------



## summerfi

That looks great JayT. There's getting to be more and more good saw makers on this thread!

Here's my first saw purchase directly from the UK. Notice any parts missing? Yeah, only the plates, totes and screws. Not to worry…I can replace all of those. ;-)

Top is a Thomas Flinn & Co and bottom is Thomas Turner & Co. I don't believe either is real old, but they should both make nice saws. Both are 12". So lets hear some opinions…what type of wood should I use for the handles, and should they be open or closed handles? Should they be xc or rip, and how many ppi?

I'd really like to get into making some saws, but these restoration jobs keep piling up. I have 11 handsaws and these two backs waiting in line now. At least the backs will be almost like making a complete saw.


----------



## Pezking7p

Jay that tote is nice! I like the way the sapwood rings the nuts.

Bob, I like the closed totes with the lambs tongue pronounced so it looks like it's just touching the other part of the tote.


----------



## JayT

Bob, no suggestions, but a question.

Where do you get your plates? I have a Disston 10 inch backsaw that needs a new plate.


----------



## summerfi

Jay - I've gotten my plate material from Amazon. McMaster Carr also has it. Look for the 1095 spring steel shim stock. It comes in several thicknesses. You'll probably want the .020 or .025.


----------



## ErikF

Here is the new addition to my shop. It got dropped off this morning and I am excited to figure out the tooling and mess with it's capabilities. First thing will be making a die and fence assembly to punch teeth, I found a good reference page to guide the process. Second, I am hoping it will have enough force to stamp medallions and maybe something in the spine. I'll let you guys know if it works.


----------



## Airframer

OK guys… Tax return is in the bank and I am about to seriously pull the trigger on The Gramercy Tools 14 inch Sash Saw and a 9inch Dovetail Saw Set

Quick.. someone talk me out of this….

*edit

Too late.. order placed.. beyond excited for my first non-rusty premium tool order!


----------



## Tim457

Erik, I'm not a metalworking guy so all I can tell about it is that it's a press. What are the particulars and how well does it work for punching teeth. The only thing I'm familiar with is the foley retoothers.

Eric, Nice!


----------



## ErikF

Tim,

Here is a good read with illustrations. I need to make a punch for the ram, a die, and a table that allows for tooth geometry adjustments.

http://eccentrictoolworks.com/2010/04/13/waiter-theres-a-fly-press-in-my-soup-part-ii-punching-saw-teeth/


----------



## Slyy

Erik, that thing appears to be filled with promise and possibility!!

AF, I hope those get to your house quick!


----------



## Wally331

JayT I can cut and tooth a 10 inch plate in .20 if you'd like, for maybe 25$ or so. Just send a pm if you are interested. Nice handle on your backsaw too!

Erik that looks great, I've been scoring ebay and craigslist for anything local for a year or so, no luck yet, but there is a nearby foley retoother…

I got to mess around with the metal lathe this week, learned how to grind the cutters and how to part the nuts off etc. I should be able to turn some next week, I'll keep you updated. Meanwhile I picked up a bit of sapele, it's a good looking wood. I've got handles stocked in sapele, bubinga, padauk, walnut, and thinking about curly maple or cherry.

Nice finds AF and Sumemrfi. Bob you are becoming an ebay wizard, amazing finds every week now. Hows your foot feeling?


----------



## summerfi

Erik - that fly press is sweet. I hope the tooling comes together well for you.

Wally - The foot feels good, little pain. I just can't do anything. My days are spent lying in bed and lying in the recliner. It will be a few months before I can be on my feet again, and I'm already getting cabin fever.

You know, with the number of people on this thread getting involved in saw making, we could start our own little guild. One could specialize in plate stamping, one in making backs and screws, one in handle making, one in filing, etc. I see a Sheffield renaissance on the horizon.


----------



## ErikF

Wally- I was considering a retoother but wanted something with less moving parts. They appear to make very quick work of toothing a saw plate but I generally have bad luck with that kind of stuff. I was afraid of always looking for the next part to have a reliable machine. Who knows… I was lucky enough to find this fly press on ebay and the guy even drove the two hours to drop it off. Good day in my book.

Bob- I like your idea. Lots of people here with a good knowledge base and obviously know what they like doing. Could be a good combination for success.


----------



## terryR

Erik, congrats on the new press! Jealous of metal working tools, I am…Spent all day today on the woodworking lathe turning a 1.25" long maple spacer for a pipe, with other spacers on each end, and forming the tenon of the stem. Love making tools more than anything…

Eric, you are gonna be a happy man! 










Bob, those are some sweet looking brass backs! I never considered vintage for brass…


----------



## BigRedKnothead

AF- congrats on getting your money back from uncle Sam and putting it to good use. What made you go with Gramercy?


----------



## Airframer

It was a combination of the cost/quality ratio. I have heard nothing but great things about them and the set they have should set me up for whatever cutting is needed with those 2 saws (minus panel saws). If I had gone with Bad Axe (which I was seriously considering) it would have cost way way more and have a 6-8 week wait.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Cool. Just curious. Gramercy makes some great tools.


----------



## chrisstef

Im down with the renaissance Bob. I think there's a little movement going on toward a more non disposable society in the tool world and I like it.


----------



## Slyy

Stef I couldn't agree more. I know I'm glad I found this forum you guys have really turned me on to appreciating a time when tools were truly made to do a job as the primary reasoning for their creation, not specifically to turn a profit. It's really opened up my eyes to see how we've got several woodworking related companies that are making a push back to return to that sort of manufacturing mentality. Seeing friends using a Kobalt or buck bros saw makes me sad, there are a few I've turned around now to a better way of doing business!


----------



## DonBroussard

@summerfi, @Stef and @Slyy-Well said by all of you. I would not expect much disagreement on the whole tool renaissance issue. I try to buy the best quality tools I can afford, and for the time being, vintage has been my strategy for tool acquisition. We know that vintage tools were made to last, and they don't make tools like that anymore, and I know that's true because I saw that in an ad on CL . . .


----------



## chrisstef

Gots a question here fellas. Ive got a couple saws coming in shortly that im going to file for another LJ, along with one for myself. One's a 10" and ones an 8", both dovetail saws, and both are believed to be 16 ppi. Let's entertain the thought that one would be used in hard woods and the other in soft woods. What kind of filing would you put on these saws? Im thinking one would have a rake angle of less than 5 degrees, and the other around 7-8 degrees. Is having 2 dovetails saws redundant?


----------



## lysdexic

" Is having 2 dovetails saws redundant?"

Yes, especially given the fact that you only use a router jig


----------



## donwilwol

I have no advice on ppi, but have a question. Isn't redundant a requirement?


----------



## TerryDowning

Is redundant even possible?


----------



## donwilwol

I know its probably possible to reach some number of saws (or any tools for that matter) where you're borderline crazy, and I'm sure I surpassed that number a long time ago, but I assure you its way more then *TWO*!


----------



## chrisstef

You're right fellas redundant isn't really an option for those with the sickness. I guess I was kinda pondering the usage, or lack there of, of one brass backed saw getting all the love. Id hate to see one of them become a shelf hanger. No one wants to have tools like that unless theyre Scotty.


----------



## donwilwol

To be serious I think one DT saw should be enough unless you plan to cut a lot of different kinds of DT's. Would you really need a different one for hard and soft wood? For normal cutting I'd say yes, but for DTs? I guess I never thought about it to that length.


----------



## chrisstef

I really don't think you need one for hard wood and one for soft wood either Yoda, im just trying to figure out what in the world to do with 2 16ppi saws without completely jointing off the teeth and refiling it to a different configuration. I guess I could do one with a crosscut filing for random fine toothed applications and the other rip for dovetails. I dunno, just thinkin out loud here.


----------



## Pezking7p

File one to a crosscut for tenon cheeks or small dados. Or file them both rip and send one to me


----------



## Tim457

Stef, there's some stuff here from Mark Herrel on tuning a rip saw for hard and soft woods:
http://www.badaxetoolworks.com/my-saw-filing-technique.html

Basically more aggressive rake for soft wood and more relaxed for hard.


----------



## CL810

New saw arrived today. Bad Axe 10" carcase, x-cut 14 ppi. Sweet. One thing Bad Axe does is ask for the width of your hand and the handle is made accordingly. This is my second BA saw and it still surprised me how perfectly it fit my hand.


----------



## racerglen

Ah, jeeze Clayton, now y'all made my drool hit the keyboard !
That's one sweet newbie saw.


----------



## planepassion

CL, that's an amazing photo. Like when it's the Fourth of July, and one of those huge and awesome fireworks bursts to occupy your entire view…and you just gaze, and gaze and gaze.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

I heart… your saw….


----------



## Wally331

Got a little time in the metal shop today, turned my first nut. Easier then expected, but I have to work on getting setup faster and I will of course keep reading as much as possible about metal lathes.









Put the last coat of finish on Jordan's saw, and roughed out 2 more bubinga handles, and continued work on he sapele. I really enjoy working the sapele and its beautiful wood too.


----------



## chrisstef

Who's got some tips on removing the stud of a split nut? Im scared to whack it with a punch.


----------



## summerfi

Beautiful screw and handles Wally.

If you guys haven't seen these, here's a couple videos on how to make screws similar to saw screws on a metal lathe. Makes it look easy.

Video 1

Video 2


----------



## summerfi

Stef - I assume you mean getting the screw out of the saw handle? It can be a difficult and nail biting experience. What I do is center the screw head over a hole drilled in a block of wood, and then use a small hardwood dowel as a "punch" to try to drive it out. Usually it scrapes some of the brass off the stud, as the holes in the saw plate are the same size as the studs, which have probably become bent over the years.

Edit: Be sure to mark which nuts go with which screws and which holes they go in, cause they're likely all different.


----------



## Pezking7p

That bad axe saw is sweet. Looking at the prices they charge for those makes me want to start a saw making business.

Wally, nice work on the lathe! Do you hand shape all your handles?


----------



## chrisstef

Impatient. A good adjective for myself.

But but but …










No busted nuts and shes free! Next time ill follow your procedure Bob. An old scratch awl aimed at the dimple and many taps with a wood mallet freed em up. Ones bent pretty good but it still threads so we'll see.


----------



## summerfi

Very cool Stef. That's going to be beautiful. Who's the maker?


----------



## chrisstef

Moses Eadon is the maker. Ive had this one for a couple months and just tinkered here and there with it. Its time.


----------



## summerfi

From Hand Saw Makers of Britain:

Eadon, Moses 24 & 109 Norfolk Lane, Sheffield 1837 - 1855 (Successor to Wm. Outram & Sons)

Eadon & Sons, Moses 109 Norfolk Lane, Sheffield 1855 - 1903 
President Works, Saville St. E. (1856, London office by 1895)
(Mark: MOSES EADON)

Eadon & Sons Ltd., Moses Sheffield 1903 - 1915
President Works (London & Birmingham offices)

Stef - Does this have the British Warranted Superior medallion?


----------



## 69BBNova

I've been worked on this handle on and off for a couple of weeks now, judging by pics I've seen its Sapel but when I bought it they said its Mahogany, I don't know…

I already had the blanks drawn out then after I ruined the handle for this Jackson I figured it was time…

Its 15/16" thick but even though it isn't done it fits my hand well so far and points great (tested on saw)...

I'm going to use some nuts I have laying around until I redo it and get my '44 South Bend 9B (War Production Tag) up and running. I totally stripped it down to buy missing and replace bad parts, then I'll be doing a full restore.


----------



## chrisstef

Bob - its a blank medallion. 3/4". Here's a shot of the spine.

.


----------



## Sillen

Good evening to all and sundry

I have just managed to read my way through this thread over the last 19-20 days, phew

I feel that I personally know a number of you through your posts, however I'm a newby here. But I feel like I've found another family.

I have learnt heaps of interesting information about the world of old handsaws, their history, their fettling(?) and their love and care.

Why am I here. Well I bought a couple of handsaws (4) on ebay (AUD 1.05) and have started their makeover and someone on the Aussie forums posted a link to this thread. (Don't worry there will be some sort of payback)

A bit of history: I tried a semi decent saw because I wondered what the attraction was. I then purchased a couple of the Veritas backsaw offerings. Interesting, they cut through wood relatively easily, hmm welcome to the force. I then on a whim (helped by a glass or two of shiraz) purchased a Bad Axe battle scarred saw filed as a hybrid. Second heaven. As I'm into trying to save money (hence the battle scarred) I looked to buy a couple of kits. Enter Gramercy. I bought their dovetail saw kit and the carcase saw kits. I've made the dovetail saw, bliss. I'm in the process of shaping the carcase saw handles.

The handsaw family has now grown to 11 and I'm scraping, sanding etc. next step is learning to file.


----------



## chrisstef

Welcome to it Nick, always good to have another one on board.


----------



## JayT

I have just managed to read my way through this thread over the last 19-20 days, phew

Do we need to call the guys in the white coats now or later? 

Welcome to the insanity, Nick.


----------



## planepassion

Welcome mate! You're off to a good start. I would recommend Andy's saw filing video to guide you on your educational journey.


----------



## terryR

Clayton, congrats on the new Bad Axe! Love it! On a similar note, I just received my Tyzack back from Mark Harrell after a 6 week wait…since I'm not man enough to sharpen my own saws yet…but Mark's teeth are filed to perfection! They look like Andy filed them for a video. LOL. Wood fibers have no chance at stopping this x-cut baby!

Nice brass nuts going around…been window shopping for a metal lathe myself! Probably will just buy split nuts from you guys to save $$$...

Stef, love your Moses Eadon! Bob, thanks for the history, too! My Moses Eadon wasn't even drilled for a medallion, just 3 brass nuts…










Steel spine stamped with Moses Eadon, Sheffield ( along with Best Refined Cast Steel Warranted ). I hope that dates it to 1837-55?

Welcome, Nick. Sounds like you'll fit right in here!


----------



## chrisstef

I wonder why one Moses Eadon would go with a brass spine and one with a steel spine? The handles seem to be of the same vintage Terry, right down to the little doo hickey at the bottom of the lambs tongue. I guess it could be a cost difference but I just haven't seen a ton of saws from that maker so why offer different lines? Probably a question we'll never know the true answer to.

a 6 week wait … cmon Tery, saddle up and file a saw! I know you got the files and it aint that hard. You're work is twice the quality of mine, im confident you can handle it, no 2 ways about it.


----------



## terryR

Stef, Thank You for the vote of confidence, brother.

Lately, the Farm has been kicking my butt…hauling water by hand to the critters due to power outage, tree took out our chain link fence in the front yard, multiple trips to help fix our Jeep…running like a dream now, multiple fluid changes for trucks, tractor, 4-wheeler, plus buying all the groceries we eat, whine, whine.  I think I had more spare time when I was working 40 hours a week as a nurse! LOL

AND I'm so old, 6 weeks is nada…


----------



## summerfi

Nick - Nice to have a rep from your side of the world. I hope you stick around and participate in the discussions. Let's see some pics of your fine saws.

Terry and Stef - On the aging of your saws - I don't want to come across as a know it all because I definitely am still learning - but I thought I'd share some things I've learned about aging British saws. First, note that the book HSMB indicates the maker's mark MOSES EADON was used from 1837 until at least 1903, even after his sons joined the business. Earlier saws tend to have fewer screws, so three screws probably indicates these are not among Moses' earliest saws. Handle shapes evolved over time and can loosely be used as an age guide. The handle shape on your two saws is remarkably similar, indicating they may be of similar vintage. It is interesting that one saw has a blank medallion while the other has no medallion. Saws made in Britain for export to the US often were fancied up with medallions (sometimes as many as four!), but I wouldn't think they would use a blank medallion for that. Considering all the features of your saws, my guess is that they are both post-1850 saws, and if I had to narrow it further I would say maybe 1860's. Just a guess though. Backsaw.net is a really good source to learn about the aging of saws. It's not a big or busy site, but there are a few very knowledgeable people there. Reading the old posts is very informative. They also have a timeline chart here that shows when various features, like medallions, etches, types of screws, etc. first came into being. You can post your saws (mainly British) there and people who truly are experts will give their opinion on it's age. I've found it a very helpful site.


----------



## chrisstef

Yowch, sounds like a ton of work to me. All the same reasons I haven't built a bench yet


----------



## terryR

Thanks for sharing all the info, Bob!
Hope you are back on 2 feet soon…


----------



## chrisstef

That's great info Bob. You've been of great help since you came around bud.


----------



## donwilwol

I agree Stef.


----------



## summerfi

Thanks guys.


----------



## donwilwol

Hey, we haven't seen Andy! Thought he was busy, or did he become Bob?


----------



## summerfi

I've been wondering where Andy is. I miss his knowledge and expertise. Come back Andy!


----------



## terryR

...I've never seen Bob and Andy in the same photo…
just sayin'


----------



## Tim457

Lol, nice Terry. I agree Bob you've been very helpful.

Toby's been pretty quiet for a while too.


----------



## CL810

Andy lives in England so you have to yell for him to hear you. *Come back Andy!!*


----------



## summerfi

Andy's the grand master, I'm just an understudy. No comparison between we two. Besides, I can't picture Andy speaking with a southern accent, which I've mostly lost from being out west so long, but can still duplicate if I need to.


----------



## planepassion

Andy has been having some issues with his arm, so spending time on the computer and using a mouse are too taxing for him right now.

But I agree. I miss his input and dry sense of humor.


----------



## Sillen

Chaps

Thanks for the welcome

It has been mentioned by a few people over the years that I should be in accomodation managed by persons in white coats. :-]

Anyway here's my little dovetail saw. As commented it is a gramercy kit. 9" and 19 ppi. The tote is sheoak and is a bit on the shiny side, which I'll rectify at some stage.










The tote is very comfortable. I reckon that the real advantage in making and shaping your own tote is that it fits your hand and is comfortable.

In short I'm very happy with this little saw.

I'll take a piccy of the battle scarred Bad Axe tomorrow.


----------



## Pezking7p

That is quite an attractive tote! What's the finish on it? I really like the particular depth/sheen combination.


----------



## Sillen

Thanks
I used a diluted 1:1 polurethane, wiped on and steel wooled about every second coat. 
Last coat left as applied.
Not sure how many coats, stopped when it looked good.


----------



## terryR

Great job on the Gramercy saw, Nick! The she-oak is spectacular!

I have the same saw with the factory walnut tote which is too small for my farmer hands…now if I could just find a block of she-oak in the shop…LOL


----------



## summerfi

Absolutely beautiful Nick! I'm going to have to learn more about sheoak. Your work on that tote is first class.


----------



## Pezking7p

Ha, I went looking for some she-oak this morning when I saw the pic. Didn't find any yet, but dang it's beautiful.

Picked up my first saw last night off the 'bay! Looks to be in pretty good shape, but we'll see when it comes in. I'm assuming if this thing is in pretty decent shape, I should just sharpen it and leave it as is, and not worry about any sanding or taking the tote apart?


----------



## summerfi

Hard to say without seeing it, Pez. Post some pics - we love pics. What kinda saw is it?


----------



## chrisstef

Nice Pez .. what'd ya get? Pics? Ebay link? Need to fuel the addiction here.

Youre going to want to get any rust on the plate off before you work with it. A smooth plate helps it slide through the kerf. You don't really need to take the handle off but sometimes it can get in the way when in a saw vice for sharpening depending on the depth of the existing plate and what kind of saw it is.

Sheoak - sexy. Dead effin sexy.


----------



## Pezking7p

All I have is ebay pics, but here's the link. Hopefully I didn't overpay too bad. I know someone said ~$20 was a good price for this type of saw, but I was tired of not having a saw!

Looks in decent shape. Now that I'm looking closely at the tote, I think i'll refinish it. Hate to do too much to the plate, I might brass brush it, then wax it…???

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Jackson-by-disston-Backsaw-12-/121274989731?nma=true&si=oXsdwSsHoj2bx5D6pXfZNgEssz4%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557


----------



## summerfi

I'm liking this wood. Nick, how about sending each of us a sample of…oh about 100 bf each? Make mine quarter sawn please.


----------



## CL810

Pez that saw looks like it'll be a great user.


----------



## chrisstef

It does look like its in really good shape. I might be inclined to hit the plate with some 320 lubed with wd40 but that's about it. It certainly doesn't need the works IMO. Little paste wax and she'll be ready to go no doubt. A little refinish on the tote aint a bad idea. On the latest saw im refurbing I used some steel wool and murphys oil soap to clean the grime off of it. Really helps save on gumming up sandpaper.


----------



## summerfi

^ What they said. Nice find Pez!


----------



## bandit571

test









of a tool chest I'm trying to build. Look close, and you just might see the saw til inside.


----------



## chrisstef

I gotta say bandito you're putting out some work man. You been busy down in that cave. Are those all your keepers in the tool chest?


----------



## bandit571

Most of those are the "Keepers".

Saws are just the shorter panel saws, and a "Hybrid" backsaw. Hybrid as in a new sharptooth blade married to a tote that actually fits my hand, and is comfyy.

The work in the Dungeon merely keeps me out of the taverns…......( no money left for a brew)









Will be getting the lid done tomorrow, I hope….


----------



## ToddJB

married to a tote that actually fits my hand

What is a good fit? Should it be snug, tight, roomy? Are you only feeling for where it touches (or doesn't) at the top and bottom of the hole?


----------



## bandit571

LOL LOL LOL!


----------



## DocBailey

ToddJB

Let's start out with the basics - even if you already know this, someone else may not.

Only three fingers go through the hole in the handle - the index finger lies along the side of the handle, pointing toward the toe of the saw.

The horns are there so that you can guide the saw without having to exert a death-grip on the handle.
As such, they should ideally contact the web (between thumb and index finger) and the heel of your hand where it joins your palm. If the skin is pinched or white (no bloodflow), then it's too tight of a fit.


----------



## bandit571

Add in some knarly stuff from "Uncle Arthur(itis)" and it makes for a strange grip, indeed. Lay the trigger finger alongside the tote, to point the way ( I still get lost, some days)

Just was the largest Disston Backsaw tote I could find. Plate was a HK Porter late 50s flimsy thing. New plate is much better. It will serve until I can buy a "Wally Saw works" saw…...


----------



## ToddJB

That is the info I was looking for. Thanks, Gents.


----------



## chrisstef

Ive got a 14", 12 ppi, brass back currently filed crosscut tgat im refurbing. Its dull, flea market fresh dull. Ive got a 12", 12 ppi Disston currently filed rip (sharp and refurbed) but binds in the kerf a bit (i suspect this is due to lack of set). These will serve as my tenon saws. Would the brass back, being heavier, serve best as rip and the disston, being lighter, serve best as xcut? Or would the brass back, being longer by 2", be best served as the xcut due to its longer length?


----------



## CL810

I'd go with the 12" for the cross cut for two reasons. First it's lighter and starting cuts takes a lighter touch. Second, the depth of cut for making shoulders is not that deep so binding should be less of an issue.


----------



## Wally331

Good looking check Bandito, you sure filled that up quickly! Gorgeous saw Sillen, that sheoak is incredible.

And way back to Bob's post on those saw-nut making videos: I saw those a year or so ago and have been looking for them ever since, Thanks! The small lathes at my school don't have a quick-change turret so it's kind of a pain in the arse to have to switch between parting and roughing all the time. There is one behemoth of a lathe that has the turrets, though I'm not sure if it works… shop was a mess until this year, there is a new teacher and hes finally getting stuff in order again..

If any of you have a saw set you would be willing to sell, let me know, I would like one to file the piston a bit thinner, as my stanley really can barely set 12 ppi, and anything finer is impossible. I want to try the technique posted here for some finer saws and see if it actually works. Anyone try it?


----------



## jordanp

Question is mahogany any good for saw handles? Someone just gave me what appears to be 8/4 × 6" x 8' board of it… I will get exact measurements tomorrow..
Saw handles just came to mind..


----------



## Sillen

Here's a photo of the battle scarred Bad Axe I bought myself for Father's Day last year. ;-}
16" 12 ppi filed hybrid










and here are the next two totes I'm shaping, again out of sheoak. They are for a pair of Gramercy 12" carcase saws.


----------



## summerfi

Jordan - Yes, some of the high end British saws used mahogany for handles. It should be fine. The important thing is to ensure it is quarter sawn, i.e. vertical grain, or looking at the end of the handle, with the tree rings running across the short axis of the handle. The picture of Nick's Bad Axe above is a good example.

Nick - If that saw is battle scarred, then I'm all for going to battle. It's a beautiful saw. Those handles are looking great too. You really do a nice job on your handles.


----------



## Sillen

Bob

Thanks

The saw back has some marks on it
I thought that with normal wear and tear that I'd mark it anyway and so took the discount.
For a tote not made for me it fits my hand really well


----------



## donwilwol

Jordon, almost all of the Sargent hand planes (except for the very early ones) had mahogany knobs and totes, so as Bob said, it should be fine for saws.


----------



## chrisstef

Thanks for the input CL810. I got to work on it a little bit last night jointing and starting to reshape the teeth. This ones gonna take a couple of passes to make right. Lots of little teeth, even a couple that will take some more sharpening to get back into line theyre so low.


----------



## jordanp

I haven't had a chance to look at it in the light to see if its quarter sawn or not… 
Might make a good tote for my beech Jointer Plane i started working on..


----------



## TerryDowning

hmm and I happen to have some Mahogany.

Now I'm thnkin'


----------



## Slyy

Nick - thanks for contributing to this thread! That Lady-Oak you're working with is absolutely stunning stuff!!
You need to crank out some more for us to oogle over for sure.

Jordan - not tried a saw tote, but my first ever carving expedition was on this:









A later model "made in England" no 4 that a friend gave me. Just had the right size chunk of mahogany to replace the ugly plastic tote. I personally think it turned out looking pretty. Sorry for the file photo (this was after TerryR was kind enough to send me a sapele knob he had and a matching block so I could fashion another tote if I so wanted)


----------



## chrisstef

Completed the refurb and sharpening of the $25 flea market found 14" Moses Eadon back saw.


----------



## summerfi

Love it Stef. Good job getting the screws back together. You've got a real treasure. How does she cut?


----------



## chrisstef

I got pretty lucky gettin the split nuts in. I only had to ease open one of the holes in the plate

She cross cuts dreamy Bob. Nice and smooth with very little effort. I decided to file it xcut and its going to be primarily used with a bench hook. I wrestled with what i wanted the usage of the saw to be for quite a bit though. Initially i was going to rip file it but After the second jointing i noticed some fleam still remaining so i just ran with it. Its got 15 degrees of rake and 25 degrees of fleam.


----------



## donwilwol

nice job Stef. Is it the picture or is the back not straight?


----------



## Sillen

Swayback to ensure the toothline is breasted!


----------



## Airframer

New Gramercy saws have landed!




























Took the carcass saw for a test drive in some scrap… Me likey!


----------



## chrisstef

No youre right Don, its got a bit of a cant to it buts its nice and tight in the spine.

Good lookin saws there AF.


----------



## Pezking7p

Lookin perty stef. Surprised you found a brass backed saw for such a good price.

The new saw makers make such beautiful saws. It's hard not to want one (or three).


----------



## Slyy

Stef that back saw turned out great, sounds like she works pretty well for ya. Glad it came out so nice.

AF, those Gramercy back saws look excellent, walnut totes?


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Congrats Eric. You deserve 'em brotha.


----------



## Tim457

Nice job stef. As impressive as the shiny restores are, personally I like the ones like that where they look nice but still old.

Awesome Eric. That was quick. You'll have fun with those.


----------



## Wally331

Nice looking saw stef, beautiful handles on those moses seasons. Sweet gram mercy saws too AF. I got my 12 files from TFWW today, 10 of them look good but two are a different color, have a different stamp and are very poorly ground. I suspect that 10 were made in Switzerland and the other two were made in India. They cut absolutely excellently though. I have to say that they are better even then my Simmonds. Highly recommended, though I apparently bought the last box of the 7" slim cause their out of stock now. What am I to do about the two bad files though? I've has excellent experiences with their service so far. Is it worth it to complain about those two lemons?

Anyways here's that panel saw I've been working on all finished up..


----------



## donwilwol

DAMN Wally!!


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Very nice Wally. Very nice.

Anybody have experience with Adria saws? You don't hear much about them.


----------



## Sillen

Oops
Stef,

I meant to say - that Moses Eadon saw looks super

Eric

Those Gramercy saws have a lot of bling and I'm sure you'll find them a pleasure to use

Wally

yes very nice panel saw - what's its heritage?


----------



## jordanp

No heritage on that one he made it from scratch.

I'm ready for it wally. Send me a message and I will drop you some cash.. that's going to match the back saw you made me perfectly..


----------



## Sillen

ok drool then

and what simply amazing work, brilliant


----------



## terryR

Oooh, like the panel saw, Wally! Too much! Did I already ask how thick of a plate you are using for those? I hate my LN panel saw. Too flimsy for my 1/10 horsepower arms. Really, I think 8ppi is too aggressive for the thin plate.

And, NO, I can't sell that LN saw since it was an anniversary gift. 

Nice set of Gramercy's, there, Eric! Love their etch…

Red, Adria saws are on the same page as Bad Axe from what I've read on WoodNet and other forums with Euro members. Completely worth the asking price and wait! Ditto for 2 Lawyers. No, I own neither an Adria or 2 Lawyers, just going on 2nd hand info there…My only complaint is the lack of a medallion in that price range. No excuses when we have guys here nearly ready to make them in the shop. Just my opinion…


----------



## terryR

Hey Stef, didn't you sharpen your Moses Eadon cross? Wanna sharpen mine? I'll clean it first, and you don't have to deal with the nuts…


----------



## DocBailey

Red
Years ago I "tried" to buy an Adria saw, but gave up when 1) no one answered the phone listed on the site; and 2) no one responded to a series of email inquiries I made.

I also made inquiries on a few forums and one member PM'd me that he'd had the same experience. I was really interested as I loved the style and handle design and the prices were very reasonable. (one other warning sign for me was that the site said that their sharpening guy had passed and they were looking for a new one; does that mean someone else is filing the new saws as well?)

But I'm old enough to have learned this lesson: when you can't even get service *before* the sale-run!


----------



## terryR

Yikes! Thanks for sharing that, Doc. Sorta like trying to buy a Wenzloff…


----------



## lysdexic

^ "And, NO, I can't sell that LN saw since it was an anniversary gift. "

And, who would want to buy it after those comments :^)


----------



## Pezking7p

I've seen some Adria saws for sale on ebay. They looked sort of homemade/unpolished, but they were selling for $130ish so it's not really on the same price scale as bad axe.

In my opinion, the steel is all more or less the same, so you're paying for appearances…etching, fine handle work, medallion, flashy spine. In those respects Adria is nowhere near people like two lawyers, who should have saws in art museums.


----------



## DocBailey

*Terry* - you're welcome, and I find your comparison to Wenzloff very appropriate.

*Pezking *(first off, are you a pez dispenser afficionado, by any chance?)

You are correct-especially when it comes to backsaws-since there are *far* more boutique makers of these - you are really paying for one of three things:
• handle craftsmanship
• spine technology (folded, milled)
• customization of handle size or shape, fastener or spine material choices.

You could add a fourth abstract price-setter: reputation/desirability of maker.

Oddly, the (arguably) most important part of the saw is of the least importance/most similar across makers.

It's a different story with panel saws-few make these as the taper grinding is a nearly insurmountable challenge for most.


----------



## Pezking7p

I'm NOT a pez dispenser officianado, just a strange name choice from many years ago.

What is the stardard taper grinding method? I would think if I really wanted to I could make a machine to taper grind plates for less than a grand. Maybe $1500 depending on drive costs.


----------



## Tim457

Wally, that's another awesome saw.

Terry, have you tried contacting LN to see what they say? They might have some useful advice or even be able to retooth it for you. It's better to spend some more coin on getting it working than have a nice saw you don't like. If no dice I'll have a fake plastic replica made and trade you.


----------



## Wally331

Thanks everyone, and yeah Sillen, Jordan is correct, its heritage would be my shop haha.

@ Terry, the plate thickness I use is the same as LN's, though mine are not taper ground yet, according to their website LN grinds their panel saws to .26 at their thinnest, I figure if I taper grind them i'd go with a bit thicker plate to start with, because .26 on a panel saw must feel pretty flimsy. My backsaws are all .20, and at a 14 inch saw with a back, that's already pretty thin. My teacher finally got the wheels for the surface grinder in after waiting like a solid 2.5 months.

As for standard taper grinding method? I don't really think one exists anymore. Only 3 companies exist that I know of that still do it. Lynx out of Sheffield has a big dedicated surface grinder, I think it's cnc. I think that at one point I read that wenzloff taper grinds them on a tormek? However that could have been very very early in his career. And I have no idea how LN does it, guessing a surface grinder setup of some sorts. If you could get a machine shop with a cnc surface grinder to grind some plates for you, it really shouldn't be hard to program that machine at all. I'd probably have to do a run of at least a hundred to make it worth it. Lots of $....

Anyone have any input on my situation yet though? Should I say something about those two bad files? I really like the other 10… very sharp and no broken teeth yet after a saw and a half.


----------



## DocBailey

My understanding is that Disston had a setup utilizing millstones which were enormous.
Bear in mind, a properly tapered blade is tapered from back to toothline *and* from heel to toe

I believe straightening may well be necessary after this process


----------



## Tim457

Wally, sure let them know they are bad. It will give them more ammo when they talk to their suppliers. In this case though they are already unhappy with the quality of saw files as are most people that use them so it may not make much difference. You might get a couple good ones though which is fair since you paid for them.


----------



## Pezking7p

I was envisioning a 2-axis CNC table with a ROS or a small belt sander mounted overhead on an a small air slide.


----------



## terryR

I guess the word HATE is too strong for how much I dislike the LN. I mean, it will certainly cross cut pine, if care is used. LOL. Hopefully, I'll get off my butt and learn to re-tooth the saw myself. Or keep looking vintage for a replacement…


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Thanks for the info Doc. Maybe that's why nobody's talking about Adria saws;-)

Bummer, they're the only ones I can find that have a dovetail saw with a 2" saw plate (cut depth). I may still try to contact them, or come up with another plan.


----------



## summerfi

I'm very interested in the discussion on taper grinding. Similar to the discussion on split nuts, if we put our heads together I believe we can advance the state of the art.

Pezking, I think you're on to a good idea, but I wonder if there couldn't be a couple modifications made. First, a CNC setup is probably beyond what most beginning saw makers could invest in, myself included. I'm wondering if a manual setup couldn't suffice. Essentially I'm talking about a manually movable jig of some sort. Secondly, I've done enough sanding on saw plates with a belt sander to know you'd be there a long time and go through many belts before you achieved an adequate taper and polish. Grinding seems to be the only feasible solution. The other issue is heat, which you couldn't control with a sander other than taking an extraordinarily long time. With grinding, you could control heat with water, but that adds significantly to the complexity of the setup. So we're back to a jig and a grinder and a water cooling system. Who has an easy design for that? (laughing). Let's keep the discussion going and maybe a solution will emerge.


----------



## summerfi

As a related issue, I'm wondering just how critical it is to have a hand saw or panel saw plate that is tapered. I have no question it's a benefit, but is it essential? I'd be interested in reports on how Wally's panel saws perform without taper. Does it seem to be an issue at all? I believe it would be perceived as an issue by potential buyers if one were selling saws, but is it really? I don't know.


----------



## Wally331

Well terry, if you built like an upside down infeed table over a tormek (so its like a drum sander, but upside down) With a very fine adjustment screw I don't think it would be that difficult to do. If you could find an old big grindstone from an antique shop you could make some sort of jig with that if the wheel is hard enough yet. Or get some shafting and bearings, make a rig, basically like a drum sander again, and buy some replacement wheels for a wet grinder.

I agree that belt sanders would be impossible to use, just cleaning the rust off old saws and trying to shine up the plate even silicone carbide wears down sooo fast. And of course cooling would be a problem like Bob said.


----------



## summerfi

I like your idea Wally. If you imagine a planer or a drum sander, except with grinders in place of the cutting/sanding head, you could make a sled that holds the saw plate at just the right angle(s) to taper grind. If you didn't have water you could take a pass, let it cool, then take another pass.


----------



## Sillen

Wally
re the bad files, I think it is worth raising the issue with TFWW
Suppliers and manufacturers need to be aware that it is not good enough to sell these files which can't do the work they should be capable of

I'm wanting to order some files and now don't know whom to go to as any that are not up to standard cost me more to return etc


----------



## Pezking7p

Clearly I've never done this before, lol. I figured taking a couple thousandths off wouldn't be that hard. If you're doing it by hand, why not use an angle grinder?


----------



## DocBailey

Bob - theoretically, taper is not crucial at all, unless you want to run with no set (ex. the Disston 120 Acme).

That begs the question of why you're trying to run without set, and the answer is a nicer finish on the cut.

The set on a typical saw not only stops binding in the cut, it also allows steering.
Taper grinding puts the weight where you want it.

Well, that's the way I see it, at least.


----------



## chrisstef

Here's an interesting fix on an early Disston 7 (i assume).


----------



## summerfi

Whoever did that did a nice job. It would have been even better with today's glues and no need for a screw. Is that your saw Stef? It's an old one.


----------



## chrisstef

Thought so myself Bob. Ive never seen a saw that was fixed so well thats this old. The repair must have been done a long time ago from the looks of things. It is mine. I grabbed it a few months ago. Its hangin out waitin for its turn.


----------



## summerfi

Looks like an 1870's saw. It would have been a prized possession and an essential tool for daily use. I can imagine what the owner must have thought when he (or someone) dropped it and the bottom part of the handle broke off. It must have meant a lot to him to prompt him to make such a nice repair.


----------



## Slyy

That is one great looking old timer there Stef. I really like to see these old girls like this: used maybe a little abused but still loved all the same, the repair work really shows that.


----------



## Sillen

Stef, interesting repair method
I think I saw something similar on ebay out here the otherday

Here's a tote repair on a Disston #76 I liberated a week or so back










obviously didn't have a screw handy


----------



## TerryDowning

So, I finally gave saw filing a try (with mixed results)
No Pics as I 'm too ashamed of the result.

I attempted to reshape and sharpen one of my 1980's no name back saws from cross cut to rip. This thing was so dull It literally had a hard time cutting pine and on hard woods it would just skate on the top of the wood scratching the surface nicely but not cutting. I mean terrible.

I jointed the teeth, (Not much trouble here)

Then I started the filing. I'm using the saw sharpening methods demonstrated in the Paul sellers video for a progressive rake rip saw.

I now have a set of reasonably sharp calves and cows on a 12"back saw (At least it can cut hard woods straight enough for some short dovetails.) I managed to make progress on a project and that is all that matters to me right now.

I will spend more time on this saw in the future once I get some better files. I now completely understand the disdain for the Nicholson files. (It was all I had available) I used pretty much an entire file on just one saw. the first two faces were shot after the first inch of filing. Horrible! Never again.

BTW I'm not blaming the file for the calves and cows that is all operator error. I'll need a lot more practice in this arena before I get decent at it. It's a good thing I'm practicing on this no name 1980's vintage saw and I have a couple others of this vintage to practice on also. If I can get this thing cutting straight and clean, I may make a decent handle for it.


----------



## chrisstef

Crosscut to rip is tricky Terry and I think its because of the fleam that was initially put on the teeth. I did a Disston 7 like that. Im just starting to wrap my brain around problems like this, I think.

After you jointed it were the shiners on the tops of the teeth a big one then a little one continuing the entire length of the saw?


----------



## summerfi

Terry - Congrats on tackling saw filing. That's the first step, and can be the hardest for some people. You can do this, I assure you. It takes the proper tools, knowledge of the proper technique, and practice-that's all.

A couple questions. What are you using to help you maintain consistent file angles? Have you watched Brit's (Andy) saw filing video? If not, it is a must.


----------



## Tim457

Wow Terry that's jumping in the deep end, good for you. Might have more luck if you go in slow like just trying to sharpen a low ppi rip saw that's a little dull before trying to tackle shaping too. If the shape is basically good you learn a few things about how to hold the file to keep it straight and level, applying pressure one side to the other to keep the teeth even, etc. But hey you're right for sure, an 80s saw is a good one to start with in some ways because there's not much downside.

I should also report that I took one of those thin credit card size DMT plates to a cheap modern saw with induction hardened teeth and it worked fine. Didn't take much to sharpen it up as the teeth are so hard. Something like these EZE Lap with a handle would have been easier, but the saw cut much better after a little sharpening.
EDIT: Oops forgot the link to the EZE laps:
http://www.amazon.com/EZE-LAP-PAK5-Color-Coded-Diamond/dp/B002RL83DQ/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1393269547&sr=8-4&keywords=eze+lap


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## Pezking7p

Terry, I'm preparing for my first saw filing/sharpening experience, and you have me terrified!

I picked up some Simonds files, figuring they must be good since they make saws. Anyone use these before? I basically bought them because they were Amazon Prime eligible. Seemed better than buying $15 of Grobets and paying $10 shipping.


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## TerryDowning

Thanks for the advice. I may have been using too large a file as well. 6" xx slim (Should be a 5" maybe??)

Stef, I wasn't paying particular attention to the shape of the shiners to be honest, I will next time (and remember to take photos)

Bob

I have watched Andy's video and will again I'm sure.

Since it's a rip filing I'm eye balling the angle of the top face of the file in relation to to the tooth line (as described and demonstrated by Paul Sellers in his video)

Saw files roughly a few dollars each.
New decent back saw well over $100.
Learning how to properly maintain a tool to ensure a lifetime of usability (Priceless)

No money in the fund for a new back saw (That I'd have to learn to sharpen or pay someone anyways) Filing has become a necessary thing so I have no choice but to learn this skill.

I don't consider my first attempt a failure. The saw can cut now where it could not previously. I just have a lot to learn. Better to learn on this 1980's POS than a more pricey vintage saw.


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## chrisstef

Ive got some Simonds red tanged files Pez. They held up pretty fair so far. Ive noticed some crumbly edges after a good session all though. Im getting like 2 saws out of every file lately. I say don't be scared but be ready for a brain drain. I was basically exhausted after the first saw I filed. Concentration overload. Is my file straight, at the right angle, hows my stroke, am I in the right gullet …. made my brain hurt.

Another word to the wise … don't grab like 4 beers, jam your face in a magnifying glass, and sharpen for a couple hours while consuming all the adult beverages within reach. Youll look up at the end and about fall over.


----------



## summerfi

Pez - I have a stash of old Simonds files that work well. I don't know if the new ones are the same quality, but I've not heard bad things about them like with other brands.

Terry - Making a rake block would probably help with consistency of the angles. One of my light bulb moments with filing was watching the shiners closely and making sure they disappear evenly. That should eliminate the cows and calves.


----------



## bandit571

Should have been a bit more choozy today..

Could have bought all the vintage saw files I wanted @ 5 for a $1….

Have found a shop about a mile from the house, will be asking him IF he also does handsaws. I just can't see all them tiny teeth anymore….


----------



## chrisstef

TD - or a 12 ppi saw I use a 5" xxslim. I actually laminated a card with all the of the file sizes and put it in my saw filing toolbox. Ive seen the chart vary a little bit here and there too so I wouldn't say its set in stone. Here's a copy:

4" xxslim 14 - 18 ppi
5" xxslim 12 - 14 ppi
6" xxslim 11 ppi
6" xslim 9-10 ppi
6" slim 8 ppi
7" xslim 7-8 ppi
7" slim 6-7 ppi
7" regular 4-5 1/2 ppi

IMO, and im just getting into filing, the shiners on top of the teeth really tell the story of whats going on. Ive found that you're on the right track when you get to the point where all the shiners are the same shape and size after you joint them. This way you have 2 sides of the file doing the exact same amount of work.

Making a cross cut into a rip you are changing trying to change 2 things at once. Youre decreasing the amount of rake from say 15 degrees down to 10 degrees or less. Youre also totally removing the fleam. That fleam makes little tapered knife points so you've got to remove all of that before youre really filing the entire inside face of the tooth.

If youre up to it Terry I would fall back and joint the teeth again, taking note of the shiners you've made from jointing. If you've got a big shiner then a little shiner you need to address the big ones first. Id take like 3-4 strokes in every gullet and bias the pressure of your file toward the big shiner, worrying less about the smaller ones. Joint it again and take note of the shiners. They should be getting a lot closer to being the same size and shape at this point. If they are the same size and shape youre rockin and rollin. Take the same amount of strokes for every tooth until the shiners just disappear. Joint it again as lightly as you can slap a final sharpening on it.


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## TerryDowning

I only spent about 30-45 minutes on this effort. My main goal was getting one of my three back saw sharp enough to to start some dove tails.

I have a much finer (16 ppi?) toothed reversible flush cut (crown) that I typically use for small dovetails. But this plum wood is very hard and it was not getting the job done.

I had a file, and an otherwise useless saw to try so I went for it and I got the job done.


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## Pezking7p

It's like tool Christmas here. My box from lee valley came with my nares chisels, brad points, marking gauge, and diamond sandpaper.

I also got this, my first saw!!! (It's so small) unfortunately it has a slight bow in the blade that couldn't be seen in the pictures . Time to learn how to straighten a blade. Other than that, there is a small chip on the front of the tote. I'm very pleased with the quality of the saw. No rust issues, tote is in good shape. I just wish there was more than one


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## jordanp

It looks more like the blade is bent to one side rather than an actual bow.. could just be the angle of the photo..


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## chrisstef

It also could have just slipped in the spine a bit Pez. In one of Brit's blogs he shows how to send the plate back home into the spine. Basically teeth down on a piece of wood and a couple of raps with a rubber mallet on the spine and that might dial you in. Otherwise it looks to be in great shape, good score.


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## Pezking7p

I think it's slipped in the spine because it's a pretty even 'S' curve to the blade. I didn't have a chance to play with it last night, but I might try tonight.

I guess when I started buying saws, I completely forgot about the "extras" I need like a saw vise, set, and files. Now I have to buy more tools….shucks. Any recommendations on a set?


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## chrisstef

The Stanley 42X is widely regarded as the best in the biz but they don't make them anymore. I don't have one personally so I cant really speak to it. Ive got the coarse saw set offered by Lee Valley and it works but the hammer seems a little soft. Check the ppi of the saw before you buy the coarse one. Anything over 12 ppi needs the finer set.


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## grfrazee

@Pez - You can make a sharpening vise pretty easily:



There are plenty of other styles that are even easier to make (Brit has a good one). The one I made above has served me pretty well for the couple of saws I've sharpened.


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## Sillen

Pez
Tools for Working Wood sell two saw sats 
4-12 and 12-26 pt


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## TerryDowning

Link to the Paul Sellers sharpening video on you tube


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## Pezking7p

Think I can file the plunger on a stanley 42 to set down to 14 tpi?


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## ErikF

You can set 14 tpi with the 42x as is. I have two, one is filed down slightly for the higher tooth count saws (16 and up). You have to be careful when you do file the hammer, the smaller surface area will mark the steel.


----------



## Don2Laughs

Haven't visited this blog in a while but found something today worth sharing….seriously doubt I'm the first to mention these: http://www.woodworkingshop.com/search.aspx?q=sandflex+hand+block I picked up the course, medium & fine blocks today and about fell off my stool when I lightly rubbed the "fine" on one of my old saws.
I'll post pics later but let me tell you….when I first started down the saw restoration slope a few years ago I did everything recommended on this site from razor blade to evapo-rust….these blocks will blow your socks off. These are solid blocks of grit that will polish like you won't believe!
Don


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## Pezking7p

Thanks Erik. How do you guys feel about the 42w? There seem to be more available (and cheaper) than the 42x.


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## Wally331

I use a 42x and like it a lot, though I have a bid in for a 42x. I only have 1 right now so I don't want to file the piston down yet. Anyways I made this while waiting for glue to dry on a Murphy bed I am building for a family friend..









what do you all think of the handle? I think its good but it needs a more relaxed hang angle if ya know what I mean.


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## lysdexic

^ agree on the hang angle.


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## grfrazee

It seems weird that the bottom of the handle hangs below the toothline. Maybe that's just me.


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## jordanp

I like the pattern of the handle. but it does seem odd that it hangs below the tooth line. Kick it forward and tilt her up a bit on the plate..


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## Pezking7p

I like your beak, Wally. Reminds me of a lion's mane.

Picked up a 14" disston backsaw (I think it's a no 7, the spine is plain steel) last night. Looks to be 1880's type era, but I only looked in one spot on disstonian institute. Is there another place with more info on dating backsaws?


----------



## summerfi

Pez - the medallion is probably the best way to date your backsaw on Disstonian Institute. The no. 4 was the most common Disston backsaw. Post a pic here and someone should be able to say what it is.


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## Pezking7p

I don't have pics on me but the medallion dates to 1877-1887 I think, I was confused because I wasn't sure it the medallion page was only for hand saws or if it was for back saws as well. The stamping on the spine corroborates the time period. Handle shape is pre 1918. I'll post pics later when I can.


----------



## chrisstef

How do guys address a blow out of a bolt hole in a saw plate? A buddy of mines got a nice vintage dovetail saw that someone decided to jam some replacement nuts in and ended up blowing out the backside of the plate. Would JB weld / epoxy over the hole work? Then drill out the hole again?


----------



## jordanp

maybe have someone weld in a small piece then sand it flush?
Not sure if its easy to weld spring steel.


----------



## grfrazee

Welding to the saw plate will most likely ruin the temper of the steel.

JB Weld might be worth a shot but I can't say how it will hold up over time.


----------



## chrisstef

Thanks for the thoughts fellas. As it sits right now the handle holds on there without any slop or play but for the long term viability of the tool it should be corrected while it can is my thinking. Ive got some aircraft grade epoxy that my FIL gets from work and ive used it in spots around the house. I might give it a small test run on a scrap chunk of something and see how it holds up to flexing and whatnot.


----------



## AnthonyReed

Would the ruination of the temper from welding be localized and if so would that cause a problem?


----------



## summerfi

Stef - how big is the hole, and how rotten (rusted out) is the metal around it? If it's a sizeable hole, my suggestion would be to carefully file it out to solid metal, then make a patch out of metal of similar thickness, and epoxy that in, then drill a new hole.

On the other hand, saw plate steel is not that expensive, and maybe the saw deserves a new plate, especially if it's worn down much.


----------



## chrisstef

I cant speak first hand to it Bob. Im just going off of what ive been told so far. Im expecting it into my shop sometime in the near future for a sharpening but im not sure if its rotted steel or just a blow out. It very well may be a candidate for a new plate. It's a Thos. Tillotson brass back with an open handle. A damn sexy saw too. QS beech from what ive seen. Ill keep you guys up to date on the status of the old girl.


----------



## Sillen

Can you somehow sleeve the bolt so it is a tad thicker? (I'm not sure how practicable this would be)

otherwise I like Bob's suggestion


----------



## jordanp

I considered welding might ruin the temper but correct me if i'm wrong, i think that would be localized to the area your wielding and since it is reinforced by the wooden handle and bolts i reckon it might be worth a try.


----------



## DocBailey

I must second Bob's plan

A machinist friend of mine once did this very thing for yet another friend. In that case, they had an exact replacement handle, but, as you all may know, the holes never line up. He bored the existing hole oversize, then made (from scrap saw plate) a washer, whose outer diameter fit the new oversized hole, and whose center hole was eccentric. In this way, he was able to "move" the hole.
No welding or epoxy needed.
Once bolted together, that washer couldn't go anywhere.


----------



## Wally331

That's pretty interesting doc, I assume that the sides pressed against it prevented it from slipping out of the hole?
I finished up my small dovetail/crosscut saw today. Its a lot easier to make an open handle then closed, that's for sure have. I'm keeping this one for myself, but I think I will change the hang handle a bit if I sell this style. Its really not too bad though. I quite prefer a steeper hang anyways.


----------



## Pezking7p

Loss of temper should be limited to the area around the hole…but that's dependent on how good of a welder you are, and what kind of welding you do. Steel generally has very poor thermal conductivity, but it only takes temperatures of 400-500F to start affecting hardness.

I like the idea of making a washer to fill the hole. I also like the idea of making a new saw plate. Those would be my personal picks.


----------



## DocBailey

Wally
yes the sides of the handle clamped it-but it also has a bolt passing through it's center making it impossible for it to move.


----------



## summerfi

The Tillotson sounds like a quality vintage saw, Stef. I'm anxious to see it.

Beautiful job on that little saw Wally. You're getting fancy!


----------



## chrisstef

Youre gonna dig it Bob. I went halfsies on a 3 saw lot with bhog. A Thos. Tillotson, a moulson bros., and a Disston.

I see that tgiag sell prepunched plates, but at 12" long id have to cut it down to 10". Any other suppliers for prepunched plates in the 10" range? Im thinkin a new plate is really the way to go. Theres gonna be rust, theres gonna be pitting and it all ready needs new split nuts. Spine and handle are good though.


----------



## Wally331

I can do a plate any size with any ppi stef. Let me know what ya need. You have to post pics of this saw with all this hype going around .


----------



## chrisstef

Right on Wally. I gotta figured it out with bhog on how were gonna divy things up but most likely ill take u up on that. The existing plates measures .021 and 10" (i think"). Lemme get my mitts on the saws and we'll talk turkey.

Heres what i got for pics:


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## jordanp

Love that dovetail saw Chris.. really lookin good


----------



## summerfi

From Hand-Saw Makers of Britain:

*Tillotson*, Thomas . . Sheffield . . 1834-1856

. . 56 Coal Pit Lane (1839)

. . Thomas & John 1834, 1841; & Sons 1839; & Co. 1852-1856

.

*Moulson* Brothers . . Sheffield . . 1828-1884

. . Tudor Street & Surry Street (1828)

. . Union Works, 49 Division Street (1833-1856)

. . (Edmund, John, Joseph, Thomas & William Moulson)

Edit: Sorry, LJ messes up the formatting


----------



## Pezking7p

Some handsome saws here! Wally did you cut part of the beak out of that handle?

Here's some pics of the disston I mentioned earlier. Any help on dating it is much appreciated.


----------



## summerfi

Pez - I can't see the medallion too well, but as best I can tell from the medallion and stamp, your saw is a 1878-1888 model. Does it have a shiny steel spine, or does it look like the spine may have ever been blued? The #4 was blued, the #7 was shiny, the #5 had a brass spine. It's a super nice saw! I have a #4 from the previous generation with split nuts and flush medallion. They don't make 'em like that anymore.


----------



## DocBailey

Today a friend presented me with a little something he picked up at an estate sale about a month back.
He dabbles in antiques and vintage stuff, but is not remotely an expert on hand tools. Nevertheless, he's seen enough of my stuff to know what I like. Besides, he told me, for $2.00 he wasn't taking much of a risk.

I thanked him, then looked it over and read the etch. In explaining what it was, I pulled up a photo of a Millers Falls 16-1/2 miter box on the PC.

"Oh yeah," he said, "that part was in the basement. The saw was hanging on a nail in the garage; I didn't know they went together."

Oh well, what're ya gonna do?




























There is a repair to the lower handle, but the saw's incredibly sharp, it's got a great etch and the bluing is all there on the spine.


----------



## Sillen

Wally, good looking saw, very nice tote 
Stef, nice brass backsaw
Pez, super Disston, very pretty
Doc, bad luck on the mitre box

I'm jealous about some of the saws you blokes pick up over there …

Anyway, my new backsaw

Francis Wood & Son (?)
Sheffield



















anybody know anything about Francis Wood & Son or (?) S Wood & Son - might not be Francis
I think I've read something about them recently but don't know where

cheers


----------



## summerfi

Nick, here's what Hand-Saw Makers of Britain has to say about Francis Wood:

Wood & Son, Francis . . Sheffield . . 1911-1914
. . Thorpe Works, 67 & 69 Henry Street
.
Wood & Son, Francis . . London . . 1910
. . 7 Hatten Garden EC
.
Wood & Son Ltd., Francis . . London . . 1915
. . 7 Hatten Garden EC
. . Military hand chain saw WW1 or WW2

A couple questions for you, Nick. What is the relative availability of American vs. British saws down under - is one more abundant than the other? Were there ever any saw makers native to Oz?


----------



## planepassion

Sillen, we do occasionally pick up some nice saws. But it's nothing compared to what I've seen in England. You guys have the brass-backed saws from a variety of Sheffield makers. A lot of rich history there.


----------



## chrisstef

Lotta saw goodies gettin posted. I love it.

Ive officially began the great saw file hunt of 2014 in search of new, old stock files. 2 hardware stores today. One was a bust but the other turned up 2 6" xslim, made in usa, nicholsons. Ill hit every old school mom and pop store i drive by in my travels for work in search of the unicorn.


----------



## ToddJB

Stef, I've heard speak of people finding them in more unlikely places, ie Tractor Supply, Quality Farm & Fleet, out here it's Murdocks.


----------



## chrisstef

That's a good call Todd. Ill definitely check TSC. My thinking was to hit all the old school places that are tucked away. TSC's just recently started popping up around here so im not sure as to what they will hold for stock but ill try anything once. The one old timer I talked to where I found the files said he was putting in a fresh order for some files and he'd talk with his rep asking about old stock. That's some service you wont go findin at the depot. He was totally unaware that Nicholson had moved their plant to Mexico until I showed him the difference in the 2 packages.

They also happened to have a #71 attached to the wall. I knew I was in a good place as soon as I saw that.


----------



## Sillen

Bob

Good questions
I'll have to take them on notice and get back to you.

Off the top of my head I don't know of any historic Australian makers but that is not to say we didn't have any. There are now one or two who make small quantities but it is more in the hobby capacity. That's not to say they aren't good saws, the examples I've seen are brilliant.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Nick- Doh, I think Brad thought you were in England. For some reason I did too. Australia ehh? Throw another shrimp on the barbie??

I know. Lame;-)

Mmmm. English saws.


----------



## Pezking7p

Now the truth is revealed. Red's bench is barely as big as that saw, which puts his real height somewhere around 3 feet.


----------



## lysdexic

:^)


----------



## planepassion

Nick, I'm so sorry mate! You guys all sound the same to us Yanks. It was the "you blokes over there" that threw me. Still, English steel puts a smile on the face of any woodworker, American or Aussie right?

BRK, between you and Andy I get to longing for English saws in my till. --sigh….--


----------



## Sillen

No probs, easy mistake

oh and we eat prawns not shrimp ;-) good with garlic and chilli on the barbie, bit of olive oil, bliss.

I'd like to get my hands on some of the saws Andy has managed to acquire, damn

I've now changed my byline to save the innocent (or to avoid confusion)


----------



## grfrazee

Got some shop time this weekend. Finally decided to do the full restore on this 10" Spear & Jackson Crosscut Carcase Saw.

Some befores:



















A little elbow grease, and four hours later, I had it cleaned, resharpened, and crosscutting like new.





































More a the blooooooooog.


----------



## Pezking7p

Saw is looking very nice after some TLC. Read the blog too. I was thinking about getting some of those abrasers. How did you feel about them overall?


----------



## summerfi

That S&J cleaned up real nice.


----------



## grfrazee

@Pez - I tried sanding dry and with WD40 as a lubricant. I couldn't really tell what was better. The blocks themselves feel like a sponge made out of sand. I think they worked pretty well. I'll know better after using them more.

@summerfi - Thanks. It's my first saw restore, so I hope future ones look even better!


----------



## chrisstef

Solid refurb On the S&J. Outside of sharpening i think they move a lot quicker than plane refurbs. You'll be hooked now.


----------



## Slyy

Grf - great refurb on that saw! My area is pretty good for bench planes and full sized saws, hard to find any back saws around that aren't labeled "great neck" or "buck brothers". Would be a fun refurb for sure!


----------



## jordanp

Taking queue from Eric's saw conversion


----------



## Slyy

Strong work Jordan, use a specific template for the handle?


----------



## NinjaAssassin

Nice Jordan. That's a project I intend to undertake as well.


----------



## Pezking7p

Nice stuff Jordan. What wood did you use?


----------



## DocBailey

saw handle shape template came from here:

http://www.tgiag.com/saw-handle-scans.html


----------



## jordanp

It's a tgiag template. It's 1 1/16" Thick cherry.
I have no idea what I'm doing so it's a trial and error type of thong.


----------



## Pezking7p

Trial and error thongs: now with front/back labels.


----------



## CL810

Please edit your comment Jordan. Please!!! ;-)


----------



## Wally331

Looks good Jordan, have fun with your sanding


----------



## jordanp

I'm actually using a carbide wood carving bit in the dremel.. and it is working awesome


----------



## jordanp

Lol my cell phone is good for a laugh here and there.


----------



## Sillen

Ok referring to Bob (summerfi)'s question re saws in Australia

I've had a bit of a yarn with the brains trust and we reckon that before the 2nd world war most saws would have been of British origin ie Spear & Jackson etc with a smattering of saws from other countries. I grew up knowing of the Spear & Jackson and only heard of Disston more recently. This also goes with the British Commonwealth etc.
After the war we think that the majority may have been US in origin. I recall Sandvik saws from the late 70s.

Now as to Australian manufacturers I didn't think we had any. I don't have first hand knowledge of any. But it seems there were a few and maybe they sprung up after the war or maybe because of the war. Maybe 10 or 11. One or two may have been Disston licencees. I've never seen any Aussie saws in the flesh though. 
Here's a photo of the mark of a Marsden backsaw. Was a subsidiary of one of our steel producers.










But now you've done it - Now I just have to find me an Aussie made saw. searching searching


----------



## planepassion

Oh Sillen…your Aussie nationalism will be the undoing of your wallet  Still, I would enjoy watching you on your quest.


----------



## summerfi

Thanks for that information Nick. It's much appreciated. If you find any Aussie saws be sure to post pics. I'd love to see them.

BTW, the Saw Medallion Reference Guide has been growing. There are now over 130 non-Disston medallions representing 9 countries.


----------



## DocBailey

Bob
Years ago, I got into the habit of taking pictures of all the tools I bring home. Most all of these are long since sold, but I went through my pictures and grabbed some medallion shots for the Reference guide.


----------



## Sillen

Bob
You're welcome and if I find any I'll do a show and tell

I've found a couple more medallions and will put them on the thread shortly

Doc - nice medallions


----------



## summerfi

Thanks Doc. Those are some nice additions.

Sounds great Nick


----------



## jordanp

This might be a silly question but what is that little nib for at the toe of panel saws?


----------



## DocBailey

Jordan
Don't start with that!
That topic is the Pandora's box of saw conversation.
This thread will never be the same.
There's no putting that genie back in the bottle.

ya think that's enough clichés?


----------



## bandit571

Think of "nibs" as the same as a car's hood ornaments. About the same usefullness, too. Just bit of decoration, to spiffy up an otherwise plain saw.

Of course, one could take a piece of leather to protect the teeth, and tie the thongs ( leather strings, Mind out of the gutter) at the nib….


----------



## Sillen

I thougt the nib was so you could safely use the saw as a backscratcher


----------



## racerglen

Ah, nice Nick !


----------



## summerfi

Jordan, read this.


----------



## grfrazee

Forgot to add to my saw restore. To protect the newly-sharpened teeth, I fashioned a tooth guard out of leather:



















They're really quite easy to make if you have the right tools.

However, if you don't, my brother and I can make one for you at (I think) a very reasonable price. Send me a PM if you're interested.


----------



## Arminius

Sillen,

Between the wars, Disston produced in Sydney. I believe the saw plates and medallions shipped from Canada (Commonwealth tariff rules made both the Canadian and Australian factories logical), with handles made in Australia along with final assembly and sharpening. From there, the saws could be exported to anywhere in the Commonwealth, so NZ and India were natural markets. The medallions are often Canadian pattern, sometimes even marked 'Disston Canada'.

Disston sold up to HK Porter, who in turn sold to Sandvik.


----------



## Sillen

Arminius

thanks


----------



## summerfi

What are good saw files worth? A dozen NOS USA Nicholson xx-slim with box sold on ebay tonight for $105.83 + S/H. Moral of the story…keep your eyes peeled at flea markets and yard sales this summer. You could strike gold.


----------



## chrisstef

Sheesh - that seems too expensive Bob. I wouldn't pay more than $5 a piece. I think a good deal would be $50 a box and fair price would be $70. I scooped those 2 NOS Nicholson's for $4.50 a pop the other day. Ill be hittin a huge swap meet in the spring and they are on my list of things to watch for.


----------



## planepassion

you're on to something summerfi. I always look out for hardly-used, made-in-the-USA vintage Nicholson files at garage and estate sales. The problem is that it's catch as catch can. It's great to pick up extras that way but if you try to use it as your only source for files, then you won't be doing any saw filing for a long spell.


----------



## dbray45

Wood shows can be a good place to find files and the like.


----------



## jordanp

I have to start forcing myself to go to more flea markets and antique shops..


----------



## Wally331

I haven't come across any nos files yet, I think most of them get taken up by the early bird tool collectors at estate sales. I have found a few decent nicholsons at habitat for humanity resale though. I really like my grobet files from TFWW though, nice and sharp and no broken teeth yet.


----------



## chrisstef

I forgot to say that I had my first bad file out of the Simonds red tanged bunch I bought a while back. First stroke, crumbled about 7-8 teeth on one side of the file. I think it was a 5" xslim.

Did you get any bum ones out of the lot I sent you Wally?


----------



## jordanp

I think he mentioned that two of them were not Swiss made and appeared to be lower quality.


----------



## chrisstef

Ok. So Bahco was bought out by snap-on industrial and I think ive found some stock available here in the states. What I cannot find are any xxslim files for teeth 12-16 ppi. Im going to dig deeper with some emails. Id love to stock up on these sizes as most of the usage of saws seem to be backsaws and dovetail saws.


----------



## bandit571

Might go back to a second-hand store I know around here

Think a cooffee can FULL of files, with a sign that says ….

"FIVE FOR $1"

And over half are slim tapers…..

I could tell you all, but then, I'd have to….....


----------



## jordanp

Ok here she. It's a pre wwII blue grass gents saw conversion.
I think it's around 15 tpi nothing fancy done to the handle just sanded her down added some BLO and gave her a wax finish.
Took the saw nuts from an old warranted superior saw that was badly bent.


----------



## Slyy

Awesome turn out there Jordan!

On the files, my best luck has been at a few large flea markets in my are, have found several untouched saw files for pennies on the dollar as it were: 5 for $1 or what ever I could haggle


----------



## chrisstef

Thats a good lookin DT saw there Jordan.


----------



## Pezking7p

Handle looks great Jordan.

I need to find better antique/flea markets near me. There's one up the road but it's all used electronics and incense.

My 14" disston has supposedly been sitting at a USPS facility in Texas since Saturday, according to ebay. Anyone have experience with this tracking feature, or how I should handle it if this thing doesn't show up soon?


----------



## summerfi

Pez - I think patience is the key. It will arrive in a day or two (probably). I've found the tracking thing to be hit or miss. Last week I had an item I ordered to go the wrong town, and I was able to see that on tracking. In a couple more days it showed up at my door. A few years ago I sold a chisel to a man in Maine and it never arrived. After several weeks I even refunded his money. In a few months I got an email from him saying it finally arrived, and he paid me again. Who knows what goes on in the bowls of USPS.


----------



## Pezking7p

I can't imagine why they're not making money…

In the meantime, the weather stinks so I guess I'll be forced to by more tools. . How's the foot? Able to get around yet?


----------



## summerfi

Still on crutches and wheelchair. Now that the snow is almost gone I'm hoping to make it on crutches up to the shop tomorrow to get a couple things I need. Haven't been there for nearly as month.


----------



## lateralus819

I found a box In my inlaws barn, now my workshop. I needed a small file, saw em and started filing wood. Quickly realized they're saw files and out em up till I'm ready for them.


----------



## summerfi

Stef - You need this to go with your Tillotson. You can start a family.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/tillotson-brass-backsaw-english-early-london-patter-split-nuts-traditional-/131134468971?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e8839336b


----------



## Sillen

Nice saw, Jordan
elegant handle


----------



## jordanp

I was really wanting to put a warranted superior medallion on the handle but the way the pattern was setup it just didn't have room..
Not as nice as a wally saw handle but it suits my needs..


----------



## chrisstef

Ohhh I seen that one Bob. I really dig the English flat bottom handle on it. Unfortunately that Tillotson is going to be owned by LJ BHog, ill be getting the Moulson Bros. We went halfsies on an ebay lot containing both those saws and a Disston 7 (?) backsaw. He's waiting on a few parts to make them all whole again then he's gonna ship them up to me for sharpening. The Disston will hit the market as soon as I can grab some spare shop time to refurb it.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Well, I got a gift card from work. Apparently I was in the top percentile for fuel efficient locomotive engineers. Anyway, I decided to use it on a Knew concepts fret saw.

I had spent some time at the toolworks event checking these buggers out, but I hadn't embarked on dovetails then…so I passed. It came fairly quickly with some nice instructions. 









-
I'll have to spend some more time with it before I can fully reccomend it. But man….you can totally turn 90 degrees while sawing. I dig that. 








-
My only beef with the saw is the ugly red. I almost wish I had enough for the titanium model…just because it's not red. It kinda looks like a UFO next to my other saws. I've already considered stripping the red anodizing off.


----------



## lysdexic

Really Rojo, you should not have to suffer. Gawd, it is hideous. I really feel bad that you must endure such a repulsive tool.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

LOL…..come on. The red is ugly. One reviewer claimed that if knew concepts wants to move into the woodworking market with their fret saws, they need to realized that woodworkers care about how the aesthetics of their tools as well as the function. I concur. And I don't care if you do call me princess Rojo.


----------



## Pezking7p

^^notsureifsrs lys

Tenon saw came today. It is large. Couple interesting things: it has a sticker that appears to be from someone who sharpened it in the past. Can anyone say otherwise before I remove it? It also has some green paint on the handle. It doesn't look like a drip that can be scraped off. Any suggestions?


----------



## lysdexic

I covet. Let me know if you think it is worth the beans. Princess.


----------



## racerglen

I concur Scotty, Sweet princess has a sweet saw ! (at least they didn't choose PINK..think that's
Sharon's tag.."NO I don't want the pink hammer ? )


----------



## summerfi

Nice saw Dan. I think you're right about the sticker. I'd probably remove it too. Regarding the handle, there are different schools of thought ranging from the kid glove approach to getting pretty invasive with the restore. I lean towards the latter, but many do not. If it were mine I'd coat it with paint remover, wash, sand, and finish. Others might say put some paste wax on it and call it good. It all depends on your 'druthers.


----------



## WayneC

I would probably gently clean the handle and leave the paint.

Red, perhaps you can knit a cover for the saw? LOL I'm envious.

I picked up $3 worth of Saws today, the handles are roached but I am not sure about the plates. They may be more dirty than rusted or pitted.


----------



## summerfi

Definitely worth $3 Wayne. Heck, the screws in one saw alone are worth twice that. The top one looks like a No. 7. Is the bottom one a Disston too-possibly a D-7?


----------



## WayneC

The top is a Disston and the bottom is a Warranted Superior with an eagle.


----------



## Pezking7p

Nice score. I thought the bottom tote looked ok, but you guys may have higher standards.

So we have one vote for leave the paint and one vote for scrub it off gently. Can I ask the rationale behind leaving it?


----------



## lysdexic

I'd take it off, just my opinion.


----------



## WhoMe

I would take the paint off too. You have no records of its past life and if that green means anything at all. For all anyone knows, some Joe blow could have sprayed that to signify it was his if anyone took it out of his toolbox.
Now if there was some record that the green linked that saw to a historical entity, and it could be proven, then leave it.

Aww, poor Red. If you really don't like the color and it affects how you use it, send it my way. I like that shade of red. It'll liven up my tool collection since I got rid of the mint green #3 and cleaned off the red paint and green knobs from my #6…. :-Q
Btw, congrats for being one of the least gassy in your railroad…..


----------



## Tim457

Big red doesn't like his red tool. Too many options. Must walk away.

I'd take that green paint off too for the same reasons as Mike, plus it seems fairly clear its a common saw and not a rare collector's item.


----------



## DocBailey

Dan
I got the impression you were looking for advice on removing the green paint-not whether or not you should.
On the other hand you do seem to be asking about the sticker. Take it off-it clearly is from a sharpening service.

The hot set up for removing the paint: pour some acetone onto a cloth and wipe the paint off. limit your rubbing to the affected area. Work fast as it evaporates quickly. And work with good ventilation.


----------



## DanKrager

BRK, it might be interesting to veneer both sides of the red frame leaving a red stripe in the sandwich…
DanK


----------



## Pezking7p

Thanks for all the advice about the green paint everyone. It will be a week or two before I get to working on the saws but I'll let you all see the finished product obviously.

I spent some time thinking about making a wooden fret saw. I think it can be done.


----------



## summerfi

The first saw pictured below is the Holley, Mason, Marks & Co. hardware store saw that I've posted on here before. I think I may have finally figured out who made this saw. The second picture is a G.H. Bishop & Co. No. 60 saw that I noticed on ebay tonight. The two saws look nearly identical to me. What do y'all think-are they the same saw? The wheat carving is slightly different, so maybe they were made a few years apart.


----------



## jordanp

The don't look like twins but they look blood related..


----------



## Slyy

They certainly look very close indeed Bob, I really like that low slung tote design!


----------



## jordanp

Yea that tote really lines you up behind the plate… +1 Jake


----------



## chrisstef

Hmm looks like you might be on to something on that mystery saw Bob.


----------



## shampeon

I had Wally331 make me a saw plate for my 1870s Disston dovetail saw. The old one was sharpened by a lunatic, and fully jointing the teeth left me with no teeth left, and very little plate. Filed cross-cut at 14 TPI.









Cut through both some scrap pine and oak like it wasn't anything.

Big thumbs up from me on this one.


----------



## ScottStewart

Anyone know about the quality of the LV files? I would like to purchase their saw file holding guide and roll with the files, but if the files themselves are no good, it's not worth it.

Thanks,
Scott


----------



## jordanp

Nice saw ian.
I just cut through a 4/4×3" piece of wood with a janka of around 3k with a wally saw in about 10 seconds. I was speachless..


----------



## Arminius

Scott,

The LV files are the Swiss-made Grobet, at least as far as I have seen. There are apparently some Grobet now on the market made in India which have produced some complaints, but the LV ones I have seen are all Swiss. The Swiss-made Grobet are well respected, you can find testimonials from a range of sources (Paul Sellers comes to mind, he had a long blog about them). I certainly have been pleased with mine, at least comparable to old Nicholson.


----------



## Sillen

Ian 
Nice lil saw

re Grobet
I'd heard that they had started manufacture outside Switzerland and quality had thus dropped
Look for Swiss (or swiss made) stamped but not printed on the file


----------



## terryR

I've still got 2 full boxes of Grobet USA files if anyone wants them…won't even cut brass. Definitely avoid the Grobet USA brand name!

On a happier note, I just got a PC with a 1GB dedicated graphics card, HDMI to the 24" monitor, WOW! Andy's saws look even better than ever!!! And Andy's a nice looking chap, to boot! 

(been watching Andy's video on saw shapening over and over…gonna knock out a saw vise this week, AFTER the chicken brooder in progress) You guys keep on me to get it done, please!


----------



## summerfi

Get 'er done Terry. You can do it, we can help. (Insert another favorite cliche here)


----------



## Slyy

Disston D-8 Thumbhole. Picked this up at the big swap meet a while back. Tote had the lower horn broken and a previous owner sawed the remains off, it was also very dry and cracked I several places. Not really sure what was all over the blade but it was pretty badly pitted. Bare vestige of an etch but only just, it should still be plenty of a user when it's sharpened. The plate I sanded quite a bit from 150 to 1000 grit the pitting limited the results here. Epoxied the cracks, repaired the tote with some apple sent via LJ care package from RonB57 of Bontz saw works. The donor apple was obviously not as weathered darkened as the tote so I gave that a healthy does of BLO hoping overtime it will darken a bit to catch up. Many healthy coats of natural danish oil and paste wax to finish off the tote. Turned out fairly okay I think.
Before
















After


----------



## ToddJB

Dramatic improvement, Jake. Great job.


----------



## CL810

Dang Jake!! Man that looks good. Crazy good.


----------



## theoldfart

Nice job Jake, fine looking saw.


----------



## Pezking7p

I really like the finish you put on that tote!


----------



## summerfi

Looks great Jake. New life for an old saw…can't beat that.


----------



## Sillen

Slyy

nice restore

one question - what method do you use to clean the medallion


----------



## lysdexic

Well done Jake. That's a beautiful saw.


----------



## terryR

Excellent repair, Jake. Please send me your snail mail since you are better at this than me, and I have a pile in wait…


----------



## jordanp

Nice resto Jake..


----------



## AnthonyReed

Well done Jake.


----------



## Slyy

Thx 'erbody. This ain't no "Summefield" restoration but considering where that started I coulda done worse!

Nick, for the brass parts I almost always use Brasso (or the Aussie equivalent for you) and a worn toothbrush sized steel brush that has all the brustles folded down from use. I basically apply the Brasso like toothpaste and scrub lightly. For me, I feel this gets rid of the green oxidation very well without scratching the brass and, since the bristles don't reach into every single nook and cranny, it leaves just enough patina to keep them from looking brand spanking new which (IMHO) deter from the overall look and feel of a vintage tool.
I also use a dental pick on medallions that have lots of crud stuck in the stampings and on the screw slots. This is Just to clear out the dirt and grime stuck in there before the brush and Brasso.

Terry, consider it a deal, though it'd help if you don't leave a return address. Makes it easier for them to stay home with me!!


----------



## racerglen

Very nice Jake !
With you on Brasso, but I've taken to a used up dental "spin brush" fot the heavy stuff ;-)


----------



## Sillen

Jake

thanks

Thought that might be the method, similar to what I've tried - was hoping for something a lot easier. 
oh well

cheers


----------



## bandit571

Cleaning a medallion? Chuck up the medallion into a cordless drill's chuck. Spin the medallion slowly into a purple 3m scratchy pad. It does not remove brass, just the tarnish, no chemicals involved…

Been using that way for awhile now.


----------



## chrisstef

Here's a solid deal on a lot of saws: http://www.ebay.com/itm/OLD-TOOLS-14-Old-Hand-Saws-/380862487782?pt=US_Hand_Tools&hash=item58ad2c5ce6

I can spot a thumbhole and a D7.


----------



## summerfi

This beautiful saw arrived in my mail today. It is a 28" J. Taylor & Son Sheffield rip saw. The lightly breasted plate on this thing is massive…7 3/4 at the heel, 2 3/4 at the toe. The teeth are perfectly formed like they just came off the press…4 ppi graduating to 5 ppi at the toe. I really doubt this saw has ever been sharpened since it left the factory. I love the style of the handle, but it is missing the medallion and original split-nut screws, which someone probably robbed to put on another saw. This saw will make a nice companion for my 11 ppi crosscut J. Taylor & Son.

I'm getting itchy to get back in the shop and start to work on this saw and the 13 others I have piled up. I've ordered a tall stool so I can sit and work without stressing my foot. Hopefully within the next few days I'll start cranking out some saw restorations again.


----------



## chrisstef

Thats a mega ripper Bob. Your gonna make that shine.


----------



## Slyy

Bob that's some serious steel in that plate. Not a huge fan of gettin stuff off the 'bay but I'd love to have a saw with a huge plate like that. Cannot wait until you get a chance to show it off after it's received the "Summerfield Special".


----------



## chrisstef

Are you going to put split nuts back in Bob? Any idea if the holes have been enlargened to accomodate the replacements?


----------



## summerfi

Yep, Stef, I'll be replacing the split nuts during restoration, and I guess making a blank medallion too. The head and nut inset areas don't appear to be enlarged, but I don't know about the through-holes yet.


----------



## ScottStewart

Anyone know something about the "AAA" Atkins saw medallion? I havn't been able to find out much about it, so I wonder if it was made for resale or a lesser quality of saw.


----------



## summerfi

Scott - I'm not sure I understand your question. Atkins had a number of sub-brands like Phoenix, Sheffield, and Columbian and used several different medallions. The AAA medallion was the most common one on Atkins branded saws. Have you seen the Saw Medallion Reference Guide?


----------



## DocBailey

+1 to Bob's response-those *are* the first line saws.

FYI: the (3) "A"s are a graphical representation of Atkins' motto: "Atkins Always Ahead"


----------



## ScottStewart

I was not specific enough in my post, sorry. I did look in the saw medallion reference guide and this one is different. It has "AAA" inside a circular saw blade with "Atkins" underneath. it doesn't have any lettering following the circumference of the medallion like the other Atkins saws I've seen. Is it ok to post an ebay link to the saw?


----------



## summerfi

Sure, post the link and let's have a look.


----------



## ScottStewart

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Atkins-Back-Saw-Mitre-Saw-AAA-16-/221390463015?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item338be66027

Thanks for looking, I wonder if it's a second or a later saw.


----------



## summerfi

Thanks Scott. I hadn't seen that medallion before, and I'll add it to the Saw Medallion Reference Guide. My thought is that this is still a first line Atkins saw, but a later one (late 40s - early 50s?) as evidenced by the shape of the handle. I would put it in the same time frame as Disston saws with silver colored Disston USA medallions. Perhaps someone else knows more about it.

I just came across this neat video on the life of Elias Atkins. I didn't know he had a Montana connection (my state). Note that the background music on the video is a musical saw, very nicely done.


----------



## DanKrager

Thanks for the ebay link, Stef. I'm going to bid on that bundle of 14, only once, and late. Just so y'all know it's me.
DanK


----------



## chrisstef

Sweet Dan. I think its a good lot.

I just started sharpening up a disston 7 22" panel saw with an american made nicholson file i found. What a difference. In 5 strokes ill do what took 8 to do with a Simonds file. My only beef is that the edges are giving me a slightly rounded gullet but the difference is kinda crazy.

Also finished up tuning a Stanley 150 miter box.


----------



## DocBailey

A slightly rounded gullet is a good thing.


----------



## chrisstef

Well im stoked that i had my facts all jacked up Doc! Indeed you are correct.

Paraphrasing here "a slightly rounded gullet prevents cracking of the plate at the bottom of the gullet". I was initially thinking it had more to do with chip/dust ejection.


----------



## Pezking7p

Sharp corners are always stress concentrators. Rounding or filleting is always good when possible.

So I needed to make some saw cuts today and I decided the best option was my unsharpened hand saws. This did not go well. Every cut wanted to pull right, in some cases really pulled the cut a long way off track. Was this an error on my part? Something with the saw? How do you guide a hand saw to get back on track once you're off the line?


----------



## ErikF

A dull saw is not good for making straight cuts. I don't know what you have at your disposal to tune a saw but you can lightly sand the teeth on the side you are pulling to in order to eliminate some of the set. Best is a quick set and then sharpen.


----------



## Pezking7p

Thanks Erik. These are as-found saws. Next on my list is to build a saw vise and then refurbish these saws. Maybe after they're sharpened and set properly they'll cut straighter?


----------



## ErikF

They should cut straight all day long after a proper tune up as long as there are no major bends in the saw plate. If you don't have a saw set or a saw vise yet you can still use a standard bench vise to hold the saw in place. I have used a few saws suffering from bad drift and a good sharpening brought the saw back on track, no adjustment to the set needed. Give it a try if you have some files.


----------



## Pezking7p

Believe it or not, I do not own any kind of vise.


----------



## bandit571

Not a problem, when i lived at one place, I used the back porch rialing as a bench. I could clamp a pair of 2xs to the railing, with a saw in-between them. The railings were just 2×4s. I could clamp a board and plane away, too. I used a pair of "F" clamps for the job, too. Very high-tech stuff….


----------



## ErikF

Hmmm maybe you could get creative with some clamps? That's a tough one.


----------



## DonBroussard

@Stef-That miter (mighty-reference to recently CL ad) box came out really sharp! Nice job, bruddah!

I picked up a few tote-less saw plates recently, and I started cleaning up one this afternoon. It was pitted, but it did have a bit of surface rust. I used a razor blade to scrape it away, then scrubbed a bit with WD-40 and a green Scotchbrite pad. I started to see a bit of a marking, so I cleaned a bit more and discovered a clear Disston D-8 logo with the script writing and all. I hope I didn't over clean it and remove too much metal around the etch. I will try to carefully clean it a bit more to reveal more of the presentation side. I may have to re-ink the etch when the cleaning is finished, and make a new tote for the saw.

Here is what it looks like in its current state:










If you have any tips to prevent me from ruining this plate, I'd love to hear 'em. I'll post updated pics when there is progress to show.


----------



## Slyy

Dan, I don't think the scotchbrite pad can do much to hurt the etch. It really should only be strong enough to take off the rust blooms, which are sitting proud of the surface mostly anyways. Since the etch is deeper, as long as there is no pitting around it (which it looks like there's not) I would think the pad should be perfectly safe. Sanding would be a different story.

Most of my Disston finds lately have been very pitted. I can get the plates looking fairly decent, but the etches were all long ago lost to rust and pitting.


----------



## chrisstef

I had something really weird happen to me yesterday while filing a saw that I figured id share over here. I was working a Disston 7 and all was going nice and smooth throughout the shaping process but then once I started sharpening my file became magnetized. I could see filings being pulled out of the gullet sticking to the file. It got really annoying and clogged up my file pretty good. Off to google I went and came up with this:

From a thread over at SMC:

"If the piece is aligned with the earth magnetic poles and something gets the atoms excited enough so they start moving around vigrously then the force exerted by Earth's magnetic field will tend to align the atoms. If this happens frequently but the orientation of the piece is different every time, then the effects tend to cancel out. But if you are always aligned the same, then eventually you magnetize the material enough to notice."

I tried wrapping a lamp cord around the file and passing it through the loop a couple of times as suggested by ksslim but no dice. I also tried sticking a rare earth magnet to my drill bit and spinning the drill bit over the file. Also didn't work. Ill grab a little demagnetizer today.

I ended up switching files and all was cured. I just found it really really odd.


----------



## chrisstef

Thanks Don. I didn't do much to the box besides flattening the mating surfaces a bit. It would initially cut about a 2* bevel but there was just some gunk and errant jappaning where the arm and the body met. ZCleaned up nice and quick. The 18" saw works pretty good for this small size box and it cuts really nicely at 45. Its gonna come in really handy for small parts.


----------



## upchuck

Don-
I always clean saw plates with sandpaper. I try to save any etch that may have survived. I use a sanding block that was made from 1/4" cork glued to 3/4" plywood and wrap 1/6 sheets of sandpaper under it. I usually start with about 400 grit just to be conservative. I also use WD-40 as a lubricate and it is messy. If I have good sense at the moment of attack I'll wear a pair or two of gloves. The 400 grit is too fine but it gives me an idea of where I should start without being overly aggressive. Then I drop down to 320, 220, or even 180 for the hard cases. Others have written in detail about their efforts at plate restoration/rehabilitation. I think Andy even have an excellent series about this here on LumberJocks. Nice find. Good Luck.


----------



## DonBroussard

Thanks, Slyy and upchuck. I plan to clean as much as I can with the Scotchbrite pads and then try some high-grit block sanding.

Any tips for remarking the etching? I've used a Sharpie before to remark a steel ruler, then sand the surface flat. Think that would work on a big saw etching?


----------



## ErikF

I've used gun bluing to remark an etch. Once the plate is clear of rust and any oily material you just dab it on with a q-tip over the area. It darkens the steel immediately and holds up well. Once it is applied you can sand the area which removes all bluing besides whats left in the etch.


----------



## DonBroussard

Thanks, ErikF. Sounds like a plan. I'll post pics when I have her all prettied up.


----------



## upchuck

Don-
If we're talking about your standard steel ruler with the numbers struck/embedded/cut (Whatever the right word or process is?) into the steel then a Sharpie and sanding has worked for me sometimes with rulers and squares. But I fear that saw etches are far shallower and more frail and fragile. That's why I go to some trouble to preserve what might be still be marked on the saw plate.
The last saw I bought cost less than a buck. Multiple tools for one price. I bought it for the split screws and the handle. The plate was so dirty and discolored that I could not see the ppi/tpi stamp. I cleaned the plate just to see if the steel was worth saving. I was surprised to find a "8" on the tooth line below the handle. And careful sanding with lots of WD-40 and rags revealed about half of an etch. I can just make out "Taylor Bros." There is more to the etch but it is too vague for me to understand. I guess it's English.
I don't think that the saw etch or lack of etch will not affect the cutting action of the tool but it's nice to have some additional information about the history of this tool.
chuck


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Wow, I've seen the present state of saws and it was not pretty.










HF, of course. Portland something-or-another. Geez…


----------



## Airframer

But it's got PRECISION TEETH!


----------



## theoldfart

Handle looks like someone copied the Bat Man silhouette. Looks uncomfortable to use.


----------



## summerfi

Sad state of affairs isn't it? If a robot can't whip it out in mili-seconds, then it's just not worth making any more. The craftsmen of 1880-1910 would be crying tears of blood if they saw that.


----------



## bandit571

Just saying









That plate was cleaned up, using a palm sander, with 100 grit paper, but, the was a layer of Turtle Wax metal Polish between the paper and the plate.

Yep, used the heck out of liquid Gun Blue, then a swipe with a sander to leave just the etch…


----------



## bandit571

saw was a Disston/H.K.Porter from the late 50s??? Plywood handle, no less.


----------



## ErikF

Gross. I made myself walk past the woodworking "hand tools" at lowes the other day while buying some sandpaper. The tools make me think of IKEA furniture…might look good to someone that doesn't know what they're missing.

Here is a little update on my fly press project and split nut making. The effort to involve pride in tool making is not gone.

Here is the heart of my project. 









It is a beast and the amount of force it produces it pretty surprising. While working on the tool holder I rigged a 3/16 punch in the original tool holder and easily made a nice hole in .032 spring steel. This next picture might not look like much but here is what makes it cool to me. I didn't use a file to make the notch. I filed a small rod of O1 tool steel to 60 degrees, hardened it, and then tempered it as best I could in a $10 deep fryer. It is my tooth punch. The lower die was filed with a saw file to receive the punch. I have a fair amount of work to do (it's all slow because I have zero experience with metal) but it seems like it will work. This was my impatient test just to see if it would work.








This is what I am shooting for as a finished product.


















Here is the in house made hardware for a recent saw I built. I now have a method down that allows me to turn the screws and nuts at a fair pace and with good results.


















I like to post this stuff once in a while because I like to share what I enjoy with like minded (at least we all like saws). I have been slowly collecting tools to make saw building easier and am willing to hook fellow LJ's up with what I can. Happy sawing.


----------



## ToddJB

Erik, super cool. On the job engineering is a lost art… Well, except for engineers, I guess.


----------



## summerfi

Thanks for posting that Erik. I've been wondering how you were coming along with the fly press. It's looking real good. The screws look great too. Have you tested the press on brass yet to see if stamping medallions is feasible?

I've been thinking about etching quite a bit. I've got all the stuff I need now, but just waiting for my foot to heal so I can give it a try.

Are you selling saws on ebay? I've seen a few lately that I wondered if they were yours.


----------



## ErikF

Bob- I haven't tried using the press to do any stamping yet but have a plan to test it out once I get the toothing jig finished. I have a punch with a design on it but I need to make a holder for it and upgrade the press stand. The centripetal force of the weighted handle causes the current stand to twist so I won't be attempting a true stamping until that problem is solved.

Are you going to be doing an acid etch? I read a little about it and even got some etching solution with the anticipation of finding a way to use it successfully.

Yup, those are my saws on ebay. It is currently the only outlet that I have to sell the saws. It has worked well enough so far but I'm hoping to get a website sometime in the future.

How much longer until the foot is good enough for use?


----------



## summerfi

For etching, a caustic salt seems to be the favored approach. I'm going to try both copper sulfate and ferric chloride to see which works best. It will be an experiment with low expectations in the beginning, but hopefully I'll get it figured out.

It will be about 3 more weeks before I can begin putting any weight on the foot. I've gotten anxious to rid myself of cabin fever and get back to work, so I've started spending a little time in the shop recently, working while sitting. It's not real productive, but at least it beats lying in the recliner all day.


----------



## donwilwol

This thread has gone beyond rehab well into some cool saw making processes. This is some pretty cool stuff.


----------



## ScottStewart

I see jointers/rakers sold on ebay. Is that the same as a regular jointer, and what is the raker used for?

Thanks,

Scott


----------



## terryR

Erik, nice split nuts! Very professional looking! Looks like you are almost set up for production runs? I'd still love to buy or trade for a handful…

Slightly off-topic, but have you guys with brass and tooling tried an infill knob yet? just curious…and wanting…


----------



## DocBailey

Scott

A raker is the configuration of one possible tooth style found on one or two-man logging saws.
As the name indicates, they "rake" away wood fibers severed by the cutters.


----------



## ErikF

Terry- what size are you looking for? I have a few different brass rods on hand of different dimensions and am setup to thread 10-32 with a 3/16 screw.


----------



## terryR

Thanks, Erik. The saw I'm re-working is scheduled for a whole new tote, so any size nut, in theory. But, lemme put the calipers to the old nuts, and I'll send a PM…

Do you guys think it's too risky to heat the threads on the original medallion and attempt to straighten the shaft? just a little…


----------



## terryR

HA! STILL can't get to the shop…

Putting on my boots, my wife comes in to let me know the last of our pregnant goats just delivered 3 up by my shop. That makes NINE boys in the past 5 days! jeez…

Had to carry the 3 kids to the barn near the heat lamp, then wrestle the unhappy mother to the same stall. Whew! Now, this old man needs a nap!


----------



## theoldfart

And I thought you only wrestled sheep! :0)


----------



## Tim457

Doc I think he's referring to a saw jointer with the parts that indicate where the rakers are supposed to be at. The rakers have to stick out just the right amount less than the triangular teeth for them to work and those tools make it so you can measure that. Sorry don't know the correct name for the tool and it's parts.


----------



## DocBailey

Tim,

Understood and agreed.

I was trying to answer this part of his question: "and what is the raker used for"


----------



## Tim457

Right, gotcha. I just assumed he was referring to the raker function of the jointer. Either way he's covered now.


----------



## ScottStewart

I guess waht I was asking was if these could be used as jointers for back/hand saws.


----------



## DocBailey

So long as the gauge in question is capable of holding the face of a file at right angles to the saw blade, it would be OK.
Many simply use a block of wood with a slot cut in it, like so …










Here is LV's version - see the illustration marked "B"-it's being used on a scraper blade, but that is how it would be employed to joint saw teeth


----------



## bandit571

Seems I sold a few Jointers









Found at a yard sale, for a $1…..


----------



## JayT

Didn't realize I had so much to catch up on. Some great stuff going on.

Just picked up these off our local online classifieds










Stanley miter box with a Disston back saw and an Atkins rip. All for $43. Hope I didn't get ripped off too bad.


----------



## Pezking7p

TerryR, if you heat the bolt up, it will soften the area where it's been bent, and you will have an easier time straightening it without breaking it (or bending it in a different spot). You don't need to heat it up so it's soft, just get it hot and let it cool. I can't comment on bending the dang thing, though, I would still be scared.

Re: Etching. You know, they sell some special blue stuff you can put in a laser printer to print any pattern you want, then you iron the pattern onto a circuit board to mask of your traces. I wonder if it would work for etching saw plates?


----------



## ToddJB

JayT - I don't think you got ripped off at all. Those miter boxes sell for way more than that one my local online ebay.


----------



## summerfi

Dan - I've read about the blue stuff for making etching resists. What is supposed to work just as good, though, is using ink jet photo paper in a laser printer. Either way, I need to find myself a laser printer before I can start etching.


----------



## terryR

Thanks for the tip, Dan. I'll use soft heat.  WHEN I get the balls…LOL

+1 to needing a laser printer….the nearest Kinkos or Staples is an hour away from me. I bought a solid brass light switch cover from the Borg to cut up and practice etching for $5. Just 'too many irons in the fire' right now…got that from me Mom.


----------



## CampD

Catching-up post.


----------



## Brit

*Terry* - Just send it to Uri Geller


----------



## TerryDowning

I just installed this one last night to replace our color laser (Which is too expensive right now for replacement toner $300 + for replacement toner. We need all 4 colors and the fuser will need replacement soon as well. Tried using the less expensive after market toner and it sucks. If I need a color print, I'll go to Kinkos. If I want to print a photo, I'll walk down to Walgreens)

Samsung SL-M2825DW/XAC


----------



## lateralus819

How resilient is etching?


----------



## terryR

No, no, no, Andy. Bending stuff is easy mind trick…the Force flows through us all…binding us together.










Let's see him straighten the spoon without breaking it…or some 1870's nuts…LOL


----------



## summerfi

Lat - etching can be quite resilient if done correctly. There are many many 100+ year old rust covered saws that will still show their etch once cleaned. There are often some neat surprises resting beneath the rust. I think the key is to get the etching deep enough.


----------



## woodchuckerNJ

Wish this was a lefty saw, it's a righty… But I love the way it cuts.
Was wondering how you guys restore the blade so you can easily read the orig Diston emblem?










I'm thinking of restoring these 2.


----------



## Tim457

Jeff, as long as it's still under there, this works:
http://thesawblog.com/?p=627
Basically a sanding block and some 400 grit sand paper and some lubricant. Simple Green is good.

If the etch is very light then gun bluing can darken it if done carefully.
He uses a brass darkening solution, but same idea:
http://www.wkfinetools.com/trestore/saw/etch-Sturgeon/etch-Sturgeon.asp


----------



## lateralus819

I have a very old saw with an etching still visible. Just wasnt sure if the printer method was as good. Would it work on brass?


----------



## summerfi

Yes, etching works on brass too. See this for an example. When I get the chance I'm going to try it out on a brass back and maybe a medallion to see if I can get it deep enough to be effective.


----------



## Slyy

Wow the etching discussions really have me thinking! I'm not anywhere tooled enough to do things like the split nuts and medallions/stamping as has been discussed previously in the thread but the etching is not very far out of my current realm of doable! Might even be worth a try to work something up like a repro disston etch for saws like the 2 thumbhole so have that were far too pitted to reveal much of any etch after clean up. I do hate some of things can (and probably are) used disreputably but it's nice on your personal stock to pretty them up.


----------



## Wally331

This is some really interesting stuff, I think I'm going to do some research on it, it seems a lot more feasible now that I think about it. If you can find the right sized container you really won't need much acid to cover a saw plate, or back for that matter.

I haven't gotten too much time to work on saws lately, I'm almost done with a murphy bed for a family friend and we just got done with a fundraiser for track which took up about 2 hours every night for the last week. I've got a logo to pitch to you guys for improvement, pics in a day or two


----------



## ToddJB

This guy might be really pretty cleaned up

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Hand-Saw-Design-Handle-/161254327493?pt=LHDefaultDomain0&hash=item258b81c4c5


----------



## Pezking7p

Really. If I was etching for small scale production, I think I would use a screen printing process to apply an etch paste. Much less time than adding resist, all the acid bathing…probably you can buy screen making kits somewhere.


----------



## summerfi

Dan - some of the later saws had logos (not true etches) applied with either some sort of screen printing process or painted on. It doesn't last when the saw starts moving through a board.

Todd - That Atkins may need a little work on the handle, but would be a good user saw when cleaned up and sharpened. Atkins made good saws.


----------



## JayT

Atkins made good saws

Good to know, 'cuz here is my latest. Picked up this Atkins skew back 9ppi rip saw on Wednesday and worked it over today. (Also posted in the "Show the Restoration" thread) Is there a resource for dating Atkins saws? You guys have probably linked one, but I haven't been following this thread very much until recently.

How it looked this morning:




























And now:


----------



## ToddJB

Nice JayT, I have a super grungy Atkins that will is in the cue.


----------



## Pezking7p

I love that Atkins medallion. Very cool.

Bob, I was talking about making the enchant into a paste and then printing the etch.

About 50% done with my saw vise. Should finish it tomorrow and get started on some saw rehabbing.


----------



## summerfi

Jay - Here is some good historical info on Atkins. Does your saw have any remnants of an etch left? There are a couple things that concern me about the saw. The handle doesn't appear to be in the typical Atkins pattern. And while the shape of the handle seems to indicate a later model saw, the brass Atkins medallion is fairly early. I'm wondering if someone may have put an Atkins medallion and screws on a different saw at some point. An etch would be good confirmation that it's an Atkins though. Nice job on cleaning it up.


----------



## JayT

Thanks, Bob. No, there is no sign of an etch left at all that I have found, but I'll look it over carefully again to see if maybe there is a small or faint remnant somewhere.

Whatever it may or may not be, it is certainly a straight, well made saw with a comfortable tote, so will be a good user, regardless of manufacturer.


----------



## JayT

Since the saw refurb materials were out, I decided to try and knock out another one today.

This one is a 20in panel rip saw, 9ppi, with a Phoenix medallion and etch from The Klostermeier Bros Hardware Co. of Atchison, Kans. A little Googling says that they were in business from 1898-1937. When I found the saw, you could just barely make out the Atchison, Kans of the etch, and that is why I bought it. Again, this is also posted in the "Show the Restoration" thread, if you happen to frequent both.

Before:




























After:





































Like the last one, it needs sharpened. I am slowly getting a grip on sharpening hand saws, so both of these will be put in the queue. I haven't decided whether to fix the broken horn or not. The tote appears to be beech and I don't have anything that would match up very well at the moment, so I'll ponder for a while.


----------



## summerfi

Another nice job Jay. Phoenix was one of several brand names used by the Atkins company (Sheffield Saw Works), so this one is from their factory in Indianapolis, made as you said, for the hardware company in Kansas.


----------



## chrisstef

Solid work Jay. Saws can be really satisfying to bring back to life. I really dig that little panel saw.


----------



## JayT

One more for the weekend. Leaves two in the till that haven't really had anything done to them, yet.

Disston No 7 rip, 7ppi. From the Disstonian Institute website, looks like the medallion dates it to 1896-1917. The plate was very dark when I started. It is still fairly dark and shows quite a bit of pitting, but I think can still be sharpened and used. I hope so, anyways, it would be a shame to have to retire or re-plate this saw because it sat and rusted in someone's barn for too many years.

Before (all the saw nuts were there, I just forgot to take a pic before pulling one):



















Now:




























Thinking I may give the plate an evaporust bath, but need to buy or build a container big enough for it to fit.

The saw till seems to be a little full. Knew I should have built it bigger to start with.


----------



## chrisstef

Youre on a roll JayT. Im hoping that ive outsmarted myself and made my till "too big". I figured 24" wide oughta hold more than enough saws but i guess time will tell. Looks like you got some sharpening in front of you bud.


----------



## JayT

Yeah, well when I've got the old countertop on the bench to protect it from all the clean-up gunk, I really can't do anything else, so just try and get a bunch done at once. I'd really like to the the other two (a later Disston D-7 and the Disston back saw for the miter box) done this week so I can have my workbench back and get back to actual woodworking.

And yes, there is lots of sharpening practice sitting there. I need to buy some more files and get to work.


----------



## Pezking7p

I love that saw till jay. Such a shame you have to build a bigger one 

Made it this far on a saw vise today. Almost done and ready to sharpen.


----------



## summerfi

Nice saw Jay. The No. 7 was the first saw Disston made, and in my opinion still ranks as one of the best American saws ever produced. That one appears to have another 100 years of life left in it.

Dan, that vise is looking SHARP!


----------



## DocBailey

Hope no one minds me showing a couple of No. 7s I got a few years back.
This was when you could go out in the morning, hit a few sales and only have to quit because the car was full.
There were two estate sales on the same street - about 9 houses apart-each house had one of these.

Worth noting:
1) the smaller (26") saw still has a good deal of it's original paper label.
2) the way Disston made these, the smaller rip saws got the lamb's tongue handle; the larger (28") did not.


----------



## Slyy

Doc those are two pretty saws for sure.

JayT all of those saws came out looking fantastic, I'd still love to find an Atkins old enough for the brass hardware, mostly cuz I remember my grandfather using one as a kid. Unfortunately that one was sold at auction and I later picked up to post war era Atkins of his.

Pez, you're really inspiring me to get started on a saw vise. Yours is coming along rather nicely!


----------



## JayT

Two more for your perusal. One that I just finished cleaning up, another that was finsihed a while back, but I'm hoping Bob or someone else may have some info about it. Hope I haven't chased anyone off to another thread. Like I posted before, the cleanups need to get finished so I can have my workbench back. Only one more to go (and refrain from purchasing any more saws for a while)

Here is the last cleanup. (Not a later D-7 as I thought, it is a post WWII D-23, 5-1/2ppi) Some deep pitting, but should still be OK as a user.














































And the one I can't find any information about-a 9ppi crosscut panel saw. I finished the clean-up on this one months ago, just need to learn to sharpen it.

Before:










Now:




























My Google-fu fails me in finding any information about this saw. I can come up with a bit about Wyeth Hardware & Mfg, but not about who actually did the manufacturing.


----------



## theoldfart

Love that 'Lectric City 9ppi.


----------



## summerfi

Jay - the D-23 cleaned up nice. I like the other saw, but can't offer much info on it. A number of companies made saws with side plates, and often they were second line saws. That fits with this being a hardware store saw. Does it have a walnut handle? Should make a nice little user.


----------



## GMatheson

Reminds me of my go to rip saw. Cuts an inch per stroke in 4/4 pine. No etch on mine so whoever made it is a mystery to me.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Nice saws Doc. I'd love to hit some estate sales but I'm always working on weekends it seems.

Those side plates are really cool too. Kinda like stylish pick guards on a guitar.

I've yet to even see a saw with brass/split nuts in the wild around here. The shop I bought my mitre saw at the other day had at least 30 saws. All chrome domers.


----------



## lateralus819

lol chrome domers. I bought a few back saws a while back. No brass either. The one is really nice though, has the open ended handle. It's an R.H. Davis, still really sharp.


----------



## Wally331

I love those sideplates, I was thinking a about making some brass ones and inlaying then into the sides of my handles, add steel hardware on top of that and it would look sweet. Too many ideas too little time 

Very nice little saw vise Dan, looks like it will work great.

Beautiful restores too JayT, my saw till is full too , I built it before the saw bug really hit hard 

Here is sort of what I'm thinking for my logo. What do you guys think? I know that I need to change the letter spacing a bit and change what is in bold. I want more emphasis on the saw. Just a rough draft though…


----------



## NinjaAssassin

Wally, I think you forgot to embed the image


----------



## Mosquito

Wait, what area of WI are you from?


----------



## DonBroussard

@Wally-I like the backsaw superimposed over the outline of Wisconsin-simple but provides some details to future backsaw sleuths. You might want to think about using the "2014" like that. If you put "Established 2014", you wouldn't have to update the year of manufacture oe every year's batches of saws.


----------



## chrisstef

Saw filers - In some brands (Pferd & Bahco) I cannot seem to find 4" xx slim files but I can find 4" extra slims and 5" xx slim. Id like to buy a full box for sharpening back saws 12-16 ppi. Which ones would you go with?


----------



## Brit

Psst - Don't tell anyone but stop searching for the illusive 4" XX Slim and pick up a Bahco 7" Needle File (Bahco product code: 2-302-18-2-0). Suitable for saws with 16ppi teeth. Slightly more expensive than a saw file, but also made to a higher standard. This is what I use on 16ppi saws.

The 4"XX Slim files are always hard to get hold of because the manufacturers don't make enough of them. This is because not only do all the the hand tool woodworkers have dovetail saws, but so do all the power tool woodworkers. However, they might not have any of the larger backsaws because they prefer to use their machines.


----------



## Pezking7p

I wonder what would happen if you put the emblem on the saw that is pictured in the emblem itself….

I'm looking to pick up a few panel saws, but I'm clueless. Any recommendations for size/model?


----------



## chrisstef

I was hoping I had roused you out of your injured state there Andy. Hopefully you're on the mend buddy.

Thanks for the tip, ill grab me a needle file for those little baby teeth on the 16 pointers and ill use the 5" xxslim's for 12-15 ppi.


----------



## summerfi

Dan - I'd go with any of the major brands (Disston, Atkins, Simonds) in a 20" to 24" length, but most importantly with a pre-WWII date.


----------



## Pezking7p

Thanks, Bob. Say, how's the foot coming along?


----------



## DanKrager

Well, this may not be too much of a tool gloat, but one does not look a gift horse in the mouth. This Atkins 100th anniversary saw blade was given to me by a neighbor. There must be an interesting history, but it's not with the saw. I've never had a stainless steel saw, so this is going in my saw till when I can make a suitable handle for it. Hmm….? No, I don't think vise grips work like that…
























I'm not a good enough photographer to capture in a picture the grinder diamonds. They consist of 3/4" wide bands crossing each other to form a diamond pattern like gun stock checkering. The blade is not thickness tapered. I haven't tried to clean it yet, and sanding is out of the question here I think. I'm going for solvent and fine steel wool. It's recently sharpened cross cut at 8 tpi.
Any readily available history?
DanK


----------



## summerfi

Thanks, Bob. Say, how's the foot coming along?

Thanks for asking Dan. I'm getting close to the point where I can begin putting a little weight on it. It's been 6 weeks now. I'm in a boot and walking with crutches, but at least I'm now able to hobble up to the shop for a few hours each day and do a little work. It's awkward trying to work sitting down. I did manage to sharpen 3 saws over the weekend while standing on one leg. Actually, I had my knee resting on a chair, so wasn't too bad. As if saw sharpening wasn't challenging enough! I drove my pickup yesterday for the first time in 6 weeks too, so that's progress.


----------



## ToddJB

Wally, good start brother. My one suggestion would be to not put a saw in the logo. It would seem odd to me to have a picture of the item on the item. Think if Toyota put car logos on the cars, or Nike put pictures of shoes on their high tops.

I really like the state outline and agree with the est.2014


----------



## chrisstef

Theres a lil info in a couple other forums on that EC Atkins saw Dan. Its "the five hundred", came with a plywood handle, somebody said it was worth $200, someone said it wasnt, made around 1956(?), might be a real pain to sharpen.

Thats my search fu synopsis


----------



## summerfi




----------



## TobyC

Side plate looks different, but it is just a line drawing, just a thought.


----------



## JayT

Dang, Toby, that's some sleuthin'! Walnut finish handle, handle shape, the fact that it says "Standard" right across the center of the etch. I'd say you tracked it down.

Electric City is a reference to St. Joseph, Missouri, where the distributor was located, so it would all make sense. Do you happen to know what year that ad was from? All the references for Electric City and St Joe's I can find on a quick Google search are from 1889, due to a claim of them being the first to experiment with electric streetcars west of the Mississippi River in 1888. That may help date the saw, as well.

Thanks.


----------



## bandit571

Had to use a longer saw for the mitre box today









A Pheonix Warranted 9 ppi. Might have been sharpened a few times, too many? Has a skew back that comes down to almost a point, maybe 1/2" of blade out there. Maybe 26" long. Nice comfy tote, though. Feels like an Atkins tote….

Needed some walnut blanks, for a Dovetail class. Handplaned to width, and then the handsaw to length









Even had to re-level the top on the bench, imagine that..


----------



## chrisstef

Just scooped up a full box of Pferd 5" xx slims at $6.50 a piece including shipping. I should be able to give them a good head to head comparison with Simonds red tang and the made in mexico Nichys in the coming weeks.


----------



## Pezking7p

I bought a nichys mill bastard from the orange store a few weeks back out of necessity. So far it's cut really well.

Actually, a guy I work with used to work for nicholson ~20 years ago cutting teeth on files and heat treating.


----------



## DanKrager

Thanks, Steff and summerfi. I can't see any etch, but the diamond patterns look right.
DanK


----------



## JADobson

I picked up this Diston back saw a couple of months ago for $1. Doesn't quite have the heritage of some of the others on this thread but it cuts really well. However I think the handle is really ugly and its a little uncomfortable so I want to put a new handle on it. Found this site (http://www.tgiag.com/frame1-saw-handle-scans.html) with lots of different handle options. I like the Groves and son handle and want to make it. However, I thought I read on the saw blog (http://www.thesawblog.com) that the angle of the handle is quite important. I can't find the article though. Does anyone know what that angle is called, or better yet, if that handle will be problematic.


----------



## chrisstef

JA - The term youre lookin for is hang angle … Or hangle (as recently dubbed lol). I cant comment on how it would effect performance but i do remember that article. I say give a new handle a shot. If ya screw it up you can always put the old one back on. At worst its good practice because once you start playing with saws youll have more saws to play with …. Soon.


----------



## JADobson

Thanks Chrisstef. I've been trying to remember that for two days now.


----------



## jordanp

JA - I have a disston panel saw that looks similar to that one, I've been thinking about making a new handle for it as well.


----------



## jordanp

Disston C-1 20" 10tpi
Disston t-1 26" 10tpi









Master mechanic 16" 13tpi backsaw
No name 14" 13tpi backsaw
Craftsman Kromedge stainless 26" 10tpi 









These are not collectors items as you can see.
If it were up to you guys which would you rehab/new handle etc etc first?


----------



## Tim457

JA, the good news about those blocky handles is there's enough wood in them to carve away the blockiness to find the nicer handle underneath. Search Paul Seller's blog, he has several posts about it, and maybe a youtube video under his Artisan Media company. You can go as far as you want towards the fancy templates, or you can just start with a rasp or a chisel and carve away the sharp angles that are uncomfortable.

Jordan I'd start with the one I needed the most, which personally is a panel saw. But funny enough that Craftsman seems to be the best of that lot from a handle standpoint.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

I'd be tempted to file, rasp, shape, sand the original. They're ugly and uncomfortable because they barely cut the shape and slightly rounded the edges. A new template/blank might look much the same until the handwork came in.

And, if you jack it up…then you can make a new one;-)


----------



## Kryptic

its a "drug"

my fav


----------



## Kryptic

collecting the steel that once put wood to rest, is both poignant and worthy


----------



## anneb3

Learn something new every day I read this group. I never realized there were saw handle templates right at my
fingertips. What kind of wood makes good handles. Woops I should be doing a Google search. Bet there are some experts right here on the Net. Off to search.


----------



## summerfi

anneb3 - British saws and early American saws used beech for handles. Most American makers later switched to apple. A few high end British saws used mahogany or ebony, while a few American saws have walnut or cherry handles. Some cheap saws use maple or even plywood. I don't believe I've seen any other woods used, except for contemporary saw makers who use a variety of native and exotic species. Grain orientation in saw handles is important. The wood should be quarter sawn so that the growth rings run across the short axis of the handle.


----------



## Kryptic

good old american spanish french and english saw handles are as intermixed with spanish galleons off the ports of unknown species of trees, that picking an all time favourite is akin to every tree that ever grew, then throw a dozuki in the crowd and the handle is woven bamboo


----------



## Kryptic

the handle matters little if the steel cant make dust


----------



## jordanp

All the saw plates are straight and a few of them are still fairly sharp..
I didn't have a specific need for any of them at the moment, other than just having another nice hand saw in my till..
The craftsman is one of the more dull ones out of the bunch. Being that it is stainless, it could be fun sharpening it.


----------



## upchuck

Summerfi-
I understand how quarter sawn is an advantage for stability of the saw handle. The part I don't understand is why the growth rings running across the short axis is better than the growth rings running from horn to horn. Is it a matter of stability or strength or both? And for the best handle is there an ideal growth rings per inch count?
And lastly is the same true for plane totes?


----------



## summerfi

Chuck - it's primarily a matter of stability. If the growth rings ran horn to horn, the wood would be more subject to cupping, which would also put a cup in the saw blade. If you look at all the old, quality saws, the grain runs across the short axis. When the wood is quartered, you also get the aesthetic advantage of ray flecks in woods like beech. I've seen saws with widely spaced growth rings and narrow ones. If I had a choice I'd choose narrow grain for it's greater density and strength. As for plane totes, I'll have to leave that for someone else to answer.

In my previous post, I forgot to mention that some high end American saws had rosewood handles.


----------



## upchuck

Summerfi-
Thanks. What you've said makes perfect sense. I actually have a beech plane tote that cups just as you described. It keeps getting sorted to the bottom of the tote repair pile. To remove the cup would reduce the thickness of the plane tote to an uncomfortable thickness. But the cupping on a saw handle and the cupping of the plate would make the saw unusable.


----------



## JayT

Worked over the last untouched saw in my queue tonight, a 26 inch Disston No. 4 that I purchased with a Stanley miter box



















Might need to make a new tote, however



















I also did a blog post about using cold gun blue to bring out an etch.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Nice Jay. Looks a lot like the Mitre box I picked up last week. 









I sent the saw off to Wally to get sharpened and reworked. I'm all twitterpated.


----------



## DonBroussard

@JayT-I'll check out the blog on bluing, since that's my next step on my D-8 plate. I still need a proper tote, a medallion and nuts-anybody got some spares that they'd trade for some dead Presidents?


----------



## jordanp

Not a lot to work with on the handle but I gave it a quick work over..









Now that I've had time to look at it longer I can definitely see some things I should have done. However it does feel 100% better to use.


----------



## Tim457

Jay that bluing turned out awesome, thanks for the detailed blog on it. Is that chip out of the handle causing it to wobble or is it just bothering you? It's too bad because it's a really nicely shaped handle otherwise.

Red, look at you going all galoot. Nice find, what are the details?


----------



## JayT

Not being sharp is probably causing it to wobble  I haven't decided whether to just leave alone, try to repair or make a new tote. It is very comfortable as is, and the chip may really be a non-issue. We'll see.

I've got to get the whole sharpening thing figured out before that decision has to be made.

Yep, Red, the boxes look very similar. What saw is with yours? The tote doesn't look like any of Disston's that I have seen.


----------



## Pezking7p

Definitely going to try the bluing process at some point.

A guy at work had mentioned that he has a ton of old tools "just sitting around" that his grandpa left him. I told him if he ever decided he wanted them to go to someone who would love them and care for them, to let me know. He said he'd keep his grandpa's tools (which I understand, but it's a shame because he's just letting them sit there), but his neighbor gave him an old tool chest with some tools in it that he didn't have any room for. So, I might have a lead on my first old find. Not sure about the chest or what's in it, so I asked if he'd bring in some pics. Only time will tell.


----------



## lateralus819

I've found a bunch of people that do that. I can understand wanting to keep them, but just letting them sit doesn't seem like a better choice.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Tim and Jay, I posted some info about it on the mitre box thread. But I know, lotta threads to follow. I bought it at an antique shop for $20. Thanks to some info from DocBailey, it dates to the 50's. 








-








-
It's missing a few parts, like the top crossbar, but nothin i can't fix. The saw is a warranted superior. The handle is crap, but the plate and teeth are in very good shape. Not sure if it's original to the saw or not.

I think it will see some use in my shop. I don't have room or plans for a power mitre saw. We'll see. Basically I said I'd pick one up if I came across a decent one. It didn't take as long as I thought.


----------



## shampeon

In my experience so far, my miter box is more accurate and has far greater capacity than my old chop saw, which I stopped using once I built my table saw sled. The only advantage, as usual, is that a chop saw is faster.

Jay: a few careful cuts and some paring with a chisel, and you can easily repair that tote. You could even just use a dado blade on a table saw or a router table and make a single cut across the tote from the top the to the horn and then glue in a patch piece, then pare it to match the other side.


----------



## chrisstef

Ive got this 26" behemoth of a saw in my office waiting for me to find its mated miter box. a 26" long 10 ppi Disston with 4 1/2" under the spine. She's a little rusty and the handle is bone dry but ive got hopes for her. Sharpening this one is gonna take some time.


----------



## JayT

Dado blade? Router table? What are these non-galootish things of which you speak?

OK, I've actually got a router table, but haven't used it in more than a year. Thanks for the vote of confidence, Ian. My biggest concern on patching was how the tote was broken right at the point the back enters and I'm not sure the best way to glue in a patch so that it will hold well.

What would you think about making a couple cuts (from top and side) to the depth of the missing piece about like so:










Carefully paring out the waste and then patching. Tough part would be getting grain direction to line up.

Or would this be better?










I don't have any apple wood, but do have a bit of pear left that I think would be big enough for a patch and not stand out any more than any other new vs old wood. After making a couple of replacement totes recently, I don't have any worries about being able to shape the patch to fit, just more concerned about having a strong and durable fix.

I'd definitely prefer to preserve the original tote as best as possible instead of replacing it.


----------



## shampeon

Jay, this way seems to follow the grain a little more.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Is a mitre saw really Galoot? Isn't is sorta cheating. I mean, it's like training wheels for your saw…..lol. Sorry Jay, couldn't help it.

It sure seems like you'd have to plane/shape that spot flat in hopes to get a a good bond with any repair. If mine had a nicer tote, I'd try to keep it too. But mine has a terrible shape, and a sweet electrical tape repair to boot!


----------



## JayT

Gotcha. Think I'll go a bit further down so that the area circled in red will have enough glue surface. Means more shaping than if I could avoid the handle opening, but would give me more peace of mind.










Edit: Yes, Red, it's obviously cheating, but dang it, I like training wheels on my saw. Unlike some other unnamed LJ who prefers them on his pretty pink bicycle.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

^LOL, you've got better archives on my shop than I do.

I don't know man. Not sure you have to take near that much off. I would plane that break with a block plane until I got it flat. I've done that with plane totes. They're pretty strong once epoxied.


----------



## bandit571

Here is a thought on that tote..

Find a similar junk saw tote, one with the bottom broken off. Re-use the "good" upper half as a "filler".









Bought this one year, for a $1









And after grafting a piece from an old back saw. Wasn't much left to the backsaw's tote, but there was enough to fix up a D-8…


----------



## donwilwol

Something like the green line would offset the break, maybe making it harder to see. The medallion would break it up as well.

If not this, I'd do your first yellow.


----------



## ToddJB

If a miter box stabilizing the saw isn't Galoot, then your shooting board, planes fences, and even arguably your woodworking bench would be in question as well.


----------



## JayT

Good point, Don. I think maybe I'll start with my very first line-angled through the grain and all and see what it looks like. I can always remove more if it doesn't look right and end up with anything from Ian's idea to Don's green line. After that it would be a new tote anyways.

Todd, yep, there is a whole backstory there about using a dovetail guide that involves me and the Wood Talk podcast.


----------



## Airframer

Or you could just go all John Madden on it….


----------



## JayT

ROFL. You left a blitzing linebacker unblocked, Eric.


----------



## summerfi

The more saw handles I've repaired - and it's getting to be quite a few now - the more I've begun to take a minimalist approach. I absolutely hate removing any good wood from a vintage tool handle if I don't have to. With that in mind, let me suggest another approach that may work on your handle, Jay. This assumes the damage is limited to one side of the handle, which it appears to be. Using a sharp gouge if you have one (and this is a good excuse to get one if you don't), start at zero depth on the right hand side of my line in the picture below and get progressively deeper as you work towards the left. Remove all the damaged material, leaving a semi-circular "groove" in the handle. You can't get it perfect with the gouge, but you can by finishing up with sandpaper wrapped around a piece of closet rod or something similar. Then, make a patch to fit out of suitable wood. Whittle it to a close fit, and then line the groove with sandpaper and rub the patch back and forth until it fits perfectly. Then glue it in place and trim after drying. You'll want to orient the grain in the patch the same as in the handle. This is a more difficult approach, but I know you're up to it. I think it will look better in the end because it minimizes the size of the new material while preserving as much of the old as possible. If it's not successful, then you can always fall back to a straight line cut across the saw handle. Just a thought, but it's your saw and ultimately you should do what you're most comfortable with.

Edit: Yikes, you guys made about a dozen posts while I was tying that.


----------



## shampeon

A plane is a jig that holds the blade. True galoots hold a chip-breaker-less blade on the back of their knuckles and push.


----------



## Airframer

You're right Jay, I was just copying Denver's offensive playbook from the Super Bowl this year….


----------



## Wally331

So much going on in this thread lately, it's crazy. It's starting to look like the miterbox of your dreams thread haha. @Red: I hope that sawplate is not as pitted as it looks. The miterbox is quite nice still however.

Great job on the restores JayT, that tote will hold up just fine the way it is, but it's not too difficult a repair. I would agree with the rest of the guys and cut just above the yellow line. Not too difficult to bandsaw it out and shape the horns really.

I took some of your advise and changed the logo up a bit. Tell me what you think now:









Personally, I still need to work on the letter spacing, and I think the saw needs to be a bit larger but I like the way it looks quite a bit. How do I go about making this on the computer then? Free versions of photoshop available anywhere? Or other logo making software?


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Ehh….who knew there were so many takes on a saw handle repair. And when did I join the minimalist crowd?

yep, there is a whole backstory there about using a dovetail guide that involves me and the Wood Talk podcast.

hehe. Ya I know Jay probably doesn't want to get into it….but my head is still spinnin. I couldn't help it.

I mean look at this guy. Using his vise as a registration for chiseling. Totally cheating. 








Ok I'll stop now;-)


----------



## JayT

Dang, you guys have way more confidence in my abilities than I do.

Bob, I do have a nice gouge picked up in a lot of chisels at an auction. Unfortunately it needs a handle. So I need to fix the miter saw so that I can square up a chunk of lumber to put on a lathe so I can turn a handle for the gouge in order to fix the miter saw.  Oh, and buy a lathe.

Ian, yes, if we didn't have jigs, then all woodworking would have to be done with a chisel, knife and hatchet. And you could argue that a chisel and hatchet are just jigs to hold a knife blade.

Wally. Bandsaw? That is another of those non-galootish things I fail to possess. My version is called a coping saw. I'm liking the whimsical play of that logo. For a free version of something with photoshop capabilities, you might try GIMP.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Wally- the sawplate looked mostly like surface rust to me. I know all the teeth were there and straight as an arrow. Either way, see what you think when you get it. If it's not something you want to mess with, just send her back. No worries.

I like the new logo better.


----------



## shampeon

Wally, you're going to want to use a vector drawing program, not Photoshop or the Gimp. That way, you can resize your logo to any size, and the lines will still be smooth. I use Inkscape. It's free and cross platform.
http://www.inkscape.org
You can scan in your current drawing and have Inkscape trace it, or recreate it. I'm willing to bet there's an SVG graphic of Wisconsin somewhere that you could import.


----------



## Wally331

Ahh thanks again JayT, I had forgotten about GIMP. I will check it out later. I didn't know you were full galoot already JayT. Does the bandsaw count as galoot if you built it out of wood? 

Red, send it back? That's ridiculous, you should know by now that I'm not afraid to face a challenge. The saw will sing by the time I'm done with it.

Good looking houndsteeth dovetails though, I'm currently doing the 30 day dovetail challenge. I wasn't bad before I started, but I am definitely getting better. Hounds teeth scare me though. Where did you see that technique for using the blue tape? I was just reading through Derek Cohen's website and he does the same thing when working with dark woods.

Thanks so much Shampeon, that is pretty much exactly what I need. Lumberjocks to the rescue.


----------



## bandit571

Dovetails? Shouldn't they be hidden from sight?









Ah, nope, that is not a true miter joint there, something is trying to hide in there. Fuzzy for a reason, chopping all them pins and tails takes a bit out of me…...









Had a small round handled "dovetail saw" that for some reason never really wanted to cut…paper. Got out a small candle and rubbed the plate down. My, my, it do work after all. I guess almost all the set was stoned off by another owner. The only markings on it is "Hunt" on the right side . That roundy handle might take a little getting used to, after using a hacksaw for these cuts. ( worked, just hard to start)

If I can, I'll put a few looks at that saw, IF anyone wants…


----------



## JayT

Wally, I'm not full galoot and would actually like to have a bandsaw. Problem is I only have 110 sq ft for tools and to work. I've been considering selling the table saw and replacing with a bandsaw, but haven't fully convinced myself that's the way to go, yet.


----------



## jordanp

Wally you can get Gimp for free it is an open source/free photo shop type software very similar to photo shop


----------



## jordanp

+1 shamp
I forgot about inkscape


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Here's another pic Wally. I don't have much expericence cleaning up saws, but I know the rust on it would have been a problem on a hand plane. I don't doubt your skills. That's why it's on the way to your house









Sorry the DTs pic isn't mine. Just an ornery example. Although I use my moxon the same way on half blinds. I think some people use tape to get away from marking lines on the wood. I've never tried it.


----------



## JayT

Shoot, I've gone international!


----------



## theoldfart

Jay's notorious


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Yup, Jay's blowin up the interwebz. I think the small-time toolmakers take our review fairly seriously.


----------



## chrisstef

Ill watch my mouth. JayT's legend. Multi continental. Ill be your Turtle.


----------



## jordanp

Jay T I'm actually thinking about doing the same thing… only problem is the bandsaw I want is worth about $1200 more than my TS


----------



## TobyC

JayT,

They made the standard for many years, and they tended to re-use catalog images in new catalogs even when the look of the saw changed. That image was used in the 1918 catalog. I have no idea when they started making them, but Disston made many saws for many different companies and put that company's name on them. I can't say for sure that that saw is a Disston, just offering the possibility.


----------



## DanKrager

Wouldn't a band saw you pedal or crank by hand be galoot? I've never seen one though…
I got 54.25 "galloot" points at a craft show with a pedal powered scroll saw…
These are 1/2" high and cut on a restored New Rogers pedal powered scroll saw using an alphabet font that I designed myself to be done in one continuous cut, no inserts. These are the "seconds", the bottom layer of a two layer 1/8" baltic birch stack, where there are some noticeable deformities.








DanK


----------



## JayT

First attempt at sharpening. Worked on the D-23 that was cleaned up last week. I wanted to keep it as simple as possible for the first try, so big 5-1/2 ppi rip teeth fit the bill.

Shaping improved as I went. Here is the first few teeth:










By the middle of the saw, they were much better










And the last ones at the toe










After all the filing and setting










Proof is in the cutting. Planning to use this saw to rip softwoods, so tested it out on some scrap 1x pine.










For the last test cut, I got the saw started and then wanted to see how quickly it really cut, so after four strokes










There is still a lot of room for improvement, but I am satisfied with the results for a first attempt. Time to get the proper size files for all the saws in the till and try sharpening another one.


----------



## chrisstef

Good stuff JayT and congrats on tackling your first saw! Lookin good buddy.


----------



## bandit571

A small dovetail saw I started to use again









no markings on this side, and a hanging hole in the handle









This side does have an "owner's name" scratched into the spine "Hunt"

has almost no set to them tiny teeth. Only way to use it, is to wax the "H" out of the plate, on every cut. Cuts nicely, then.

That hand plane is a Millers falls #8









Marking gauge and that little square are also "No Name" items…..


----------



## Tim457

Nice work JayT, the tooth heights and sizes are looking very even. Now you're off to the races.


----------



## Pezking7p

Nice work JayT. Saw looks like it's ready for some serious ripping.

I'm about to tackle my first saw as well. Need to straighten a blade first, though. I'm skerred about whacking this thing to try to straighten it.


----------



## Airframer

If it's bent than it doesn't work right.. if you whack it and it gets more bent it still doesn't work right.. no loss.. if you whack it and it gets straight then it works.. so man up and get to whackin' like Stef does in his neighbors trailer!


----------



## summerfi

Jay - great job for a first sharpening attempt. You're a quick study.


----------



## DonBroussard

JayT showing some sharpening skills. Very nice, especially for the first one. You'll have a till full of sharp saws very shortly. Carry on . . .


----------



## DonBroussard

I picked up some old tools from a neighbor's widow (he built a porch for us several years ago). There were a few electrical hand tools like drills and sanders, but there were also a few saws. I found something I had never seen before:










That's right-a Disston USA medallion molded in the plastic handle of a coping saw. These are probably not unusual, and clearly not collectible. I had just never seen one before.


----------



## chrisstef

Has anyone successfully filed down the hammer on a saw set? Ive got a somax gold colored set that id like to thin down a bit for working smaller teeth instead of spending another $25 on the blue one. Ive got a stanley 42 that will cover larger teeth for me.


----------



## Pezking7p

Pretty sure Wally filed one down.


----------



## SJD312

Bob, the story makes it even better. Gorgeous handle. That piece of wood sure waited for its destiny.


----------



## Wally331

I have two no 42w saw sets now, I plan on filing one down. You only need it at about 14 tpi. When I toothed that saw for shampeon I didn't have the second saw set at the time and didn't want to make him wait any longer so I sent it out unset. Of course my second set came the day after (figures), but I haven't had the need to file that small of teeth since then.

Here is what I've been doing when free from that murphy bed build:



























12 inch backsaw at 11ppi, Sapele handle. I loved working with the sapele and it's really gorgeous. I think it's the perfect level of hardness and strength for saw handles. This saw cuts through anything you throw at it like butter. Still sticky sharp too, and tracks to a line like a boss.


----------



## ErikF

Stef- I have a 42 that I filed down a little bit for smaller teeth. Be careful with how much pressure you apply when setting the teeth. If you press too hard the narrower hammer can mark the steel. It has made life easier when setting some of the smaller teeth (17 and 18 tpi).


----------



## chrisstef

Thanks for the heads up Erik. That Tillotson above is 16ppi and while its sharp it binds up pretty good. Not a lick of set on it. I might try and tackle the modification tonight.


----------



## Pezking7p

Well, I managed to sort of straighten out the blade my little Jackson dovetail saw. Not sure if I made it better or not, but I said $&*ck it and started sharpening. Good god what a learning curve. I'm over here sweating bullets about messing this thing up. I managed to joint it, then shape all the teeth. Some of the teeth are even the same shape. Next up is set and sharpen.

Do you guys use paper guides to help you sharpen?


----------



## Tim457

Dan, for a rip saw, doesn't seem like too much use, you can eyeball 90 degrees to the saw plate, but for the next crosscut saw I do I'm probably going to print out a fleam guide and use that until I get the muscle memory down.


----------



## summerfi

Dan - the only time I use a paper guide is to get the spacing (pitch) correct on a saw that I'm putting all new teeth on. For getting a consistent fleam angle, I use a block of wood with a slot in it at that correct angle and slide it over the teeth. I find it pretty easy to maintain a consistent fleam angle but much harder to maintain consistent rake. That may be just me though.


----------



## chrisstef

Got that saw set all pulled apart and filed down. I did manage to dump the spring under my bench all though. Theres off cuts from 3 years ago under there apparently.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Jeepers Wally, that saw is outstanding.


----------



## theoldfart

Wouldn't help but not concerned, I'm happy with it.


----------



## bandit571

These are a few of my favourite things









saw til on the right, planes on the left. keeps them neat that way, and out of the wife's sight…

"Clowns to the left of me, Jokers to the right, here I am, stuck in the middle with you"

I don't think the dog was impressed, though









It might have drove her to drink…..


----------



## bandit571

Ok, I guess he did go away, didn't he?

Thought that guy sounded like someone else….

Kryptic=======MORON?


----------



## DocBailey

*↑* HUH?


----------



## DocBailey

Wally
awesome work on that sapele handle


----------



## shampeon

Looks like the mods caught it. Just some member here that pollutes the threads with off-topic nonsense.


----------



## bandit571

At least he did keep his word…...and left.

Mods even got shamp's little post about him….


----------



## DocBailey

For at least a year now, a neighbor, aware of my appetite for old tools, has been promising to bring me a "little saw" which hangs in the garage of her Mother's house-but she keeps forgetting to grab it when she visits there.
She thinks it's from the '50s.
This morning she actually delivered it to me.









































It's amazingly shiny and the handle's darn near perfect. For those who don't know J.D. Darlington was a lesser line produced by Harvey Peace (Brooklyn).


----------



## ErikF

Now that is a cool saw. Nice score.


----------



## bandit571

Been putting this little guy to work, lately









That handle does have a hanger hole. When i bought it, there was a ring in the hole.. Took the ring off, looked too much like another type of ring in a knob….

Almost no set to it, have to keep the plate waxed down. Then It will cut nicely.


----------



## chrisstef

For a while now Ive been secretly coveting that style of handle from afar Doc. Its different and i like it. Was harvey peace around in the 50's? Id think she was off a few years no?


----------



## theoldfart

I thought they stopped using split nuts around the turn of the century, 1890 or so.


----------



## summerfi

That's a beautiful saw in amazing condition Doc. Lucky lucky man you are.


----------



## DocBailey

Gentlemen - thanks for the kind words regarding the saw

*Chrisstef* - yes, she was clearly way off-I think the Vulcan Saw works was all done before the turn of the century (1900). So, *theoldfart* is correct in his rule of thumb regarding split nuts.

Interestingly, Harvey Peace/Vulcan had moved to the improved fasteners on their first line saws, but were still using split nuts on these second-line saws.


----------



## chrisstef

Jeez Doc or being a turn of the century saw it couldn't be in better shape, im kinda floored by the condition. I guess HP just couldnt toss away all those split nuts they had laying around when they made the change over. Who knew that 120 years later we would get all foamy at the mouth over the hardware they had abandoned. It looks like its never been resharpened, there's gotta be 3+" under the spine there.


----------



## DocBailey

Good eye *Chrisstef*

Earlier this morning I emailed a Harvey Peace expert and had to take some measurements-it is 3" under the spine at the handle and tapers to 2 /12" at the toe. (also 14" toothline; 12 PPI)


----------



## DocBailey

Chrisstef's comments got me to thinking …

It often occurs to me how bizarre this whole passion-for-old-hand-tools thing is.
On the one hand, you could argue that it's really no different than collecting/restoring old cars.

What seems different about hand tools is how mundane and ubiquitous they once were. Maybe it's their utilitarian nature that makes valuing them seem highly weird at times.

75 years from now, can you see someone saying: "I found an awesome Rainmaster garden hose. It's the 100' model in teal, and I don't think it's ever been used!"


----------



## lateralus819

Lmao Doc. I think it has to do with the advent of modern machinery almost making them obsolete.


----------



## summerfi

I got this book thinking it would improve my saw sharpening, but no dice. The concepts it presents are over my head. Just too deep for me to comprehend. Sooo, I'm making it available to anyone who wants to give it a try. I would just like to get my cost back plus a small S/H fee. If you're interested, send me a PM.










.

.

.

Oh, and happy April 1 everybody.


----------



## jordanp

I like hand tools because i'm a non-conformist however this thread is getting too large and i feel like i am starting to conform to your group so I may have to take up water hose collecting.


----------



## DocBailey

Atta Boy Jordan! Get out ahead of that curve

you're probably young enough to capitalize on the red-hot garden hose market which will occur about 2055.


----------



## chrisstef

That's pretty good Bob. The bubble caption made me laugh.

Last year my wife got me with the rubber band around the faucet sprayer gag. I should have saran wrapper the toilet seat but that's pretty cruel.


----------



## summerfi

I can see it now…."Water Hoses of Your Dreams".


----------



## summerfi

Saws in the works. Coming soon to a forum near you.


----------



## Pezking7p

Bob what's the 2nd handle from the right? I really like the color/figure.

I heard on the radio a few weeks ago that country music used to be just a tiny offshoot of all the music that was made. Then, sometime in the '30's or '40's, country music took off and became wildly popular. At this same time, America had just crossed the line of 50% of its total population living in a city, versus in the country. So the thought is that country music, which (at least at the time) harkened to a time when life was simpler and yearned for the country life, was a way for people to reconnect with what they had lost.

I think it's probably pretty similar with hand tools. It's just country music for woodworkers.


----------



## DocBailey

Pezking
I could not agree more-a huge part of what makes these old tools is nostalgia about the way things "used to be" - it hearkens to a time when Americans were more self-sufficient, valued honest (&hard) work, and actually manufactured things here.


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## chrisstef

Goin for the batch method huh Bob. I like it buddy.


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## summerfi

Dan - that handle goes to a little Richardson backsaw, which is the one on the left in the 2nd picture. It had no finish when the picture was taken, but now it's a tad darker with finish. I tried to preserve the pinkish color of the apple wood though.

Stef - I got so far behind I have to batch 'em up to ever get 'em done. There are more waiting in line behind these.


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## summerfi

This is a Bakewell & Co. saw. Josiah Bakewell was born in England in 1820, performed his saw making apprenticeship there, and then moved to America in 1841. After one or two false starts, he settled in Middletown, NY and began making saws there under the name Bakewell & Co. In 1853 Bakewell joined Elisha Wheeler and Edward Madden to form Monhagan Saw Works in Middletown. Their saws carried the name Wheeler, Madden & Bakewell. Bakewell left the firm in 1860 and died in 1863. After his departure, William Clemson joined the company that then became known as Wheeler, Madden & Clemson.

This saw has a stamp on the plate that reads Bakewell & Co. over J*B. The medallion reads Bakewell & Co. but in addition has the initials WM&B for Wheeler, Madden & Bakewell. Based on this, the saw dates to the 1850s. The saw is an 8 ppi crosscut. Due to a narrow toe from numerous sharpenings, I shortened the saw from 26 1/2" to 24", and I think it looks a lot better at that length.














































And this is just my attempt at being artsy. No, I don't really use that saw set, but it belonged to my grandfather and he did. I do use the file handle that he made from a hickory limb.


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## Pezking7p

Saw looks smoking hot bob. I love the gleam on the handle.


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## donwilwol

You've done Mr Bakewell and his saw justice Bob. Very well done.


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## chrisstef

Bravo Bob. That old hickory handle got a couple strokes behind it too. Great stuff.


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## thedude50

I have purchased a couple of miter boxes but have not found one as nice as the one on the Woodwrights shop any ideas which one he uses I would like a depth stop and positive stops for popular angles


----------



## DocBailey

If I remember correctly, he has a Miller Falls Langdon Acme box


----------



## planepassion

If that's the case Dude, then you either face paying top dollar for a decent one on ebay, or biding your time scouring garage and estate sales for a decent-priced user in the wild. I've come across later-model miterboxes in the wild, usually in phenomenal condition. Most recently a Millers Falls 74C manufactured around 1974 from what I can tell. It cuts like a dream. Dead accurate. The only beef I have is with the saw handle, it being a later model. But making a new handle is on my project list.


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## DocBailey

The photo I used above is one I sold a few years back-it was virtually unused and fetched an insane amount of money.

I, personally, swear by the older Stanleys-and don't really understand all the hoopla surrounding the MF Langdon Acme boxes.

I suppose it's not unlike any other debate concerning choices in woodworking tools.


----------



## Tim457

Doc I Like my Langdon Acme fine, but it's just what I happened across, so it's the only one I know. What do you like better about the Stanleys, just curious.


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## DocBailey

I guess I actually like the complexity of them, strange as that may sound (many fine adjustments are possible).
I also like the full support under the (easily replaced) sacrificial board.
I like the fact that they are much less expensive and ubiquitous.
I also like the style of hardened steel roller bearing they employ (over the MF ball design)

Bear in mind, I have nothing against the MF boxes, I just don't find any basis for what seems to be an actual preference for them.

one last thing - for anyone seeking an MF box, many were manufactured for Sears and branded "Craftsman".


----------



## planepassion

Doc, one upside of "ubiquitous" is that spare parts are more readily available. And while I love my Goodell Manufacturing Co miterbox, my Stanley #60 works quite well. It is easier to adjust it and it has some other nice features too. So I would say that my experience with the Stanley is every bit as good as with my MFs 1124 & 74C.


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## summerfi

Remember this saw?










Here she is today. This is a Harvey W. Peace. Unfortunately the etch is gone, so it's difficult to determine the model. I believe it must be a P37 because according to the old catalog, that is the only saw in the Perfection series with a beech handle. Peace was from a large family of saw makers in England, and he came to New York in 1849 with his father and grandfather to enter the saw business here. Peace started his own business in 1861 and continued to make saws until his death in 1907. He operated at different times under the names of Vulcan Saw Works, Harvey Peace Company, and National Saw Company. This saw has some pitting, but I believe it was well worth the save. One less saw hanging on a restaurant wall.


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## JADobson

Way to go Bob, that saw looks fantastic. I just saw an ad on my local kijiji offering saws for sale "to be painted on". Would have loved to have saved them but he wanted $100 a piece (two man crosscut saws). I just don't have that kind of money (or really a use for a two man crosscut saw). But you wish you could spare the saw the indignity.


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## chrisstef

The rust gods smile kindly upon you for such a fine save Bob. May there be a panther head in your future as reward for your salvage of that former hand tool atrocity.

I friggin love the brass guard and the Harvey Peace logo kinda gives me chub.


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## JayT

Nice save, Bob. It certainly looks much better now.

Why the heck can't the people who want to paint saws and other tools do that to the cheap ones instead of the good quality tools?


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## shampeon

My guess is that it was cheap when they got it. For every garage-sale D8-thumbhole for $1 we read about here, there's another artist who just buys the old beat-up hand saw for $1 and paints it.


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## donwilwol

it certainly looks better without the lighthouse!


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## JayT

The logical part of me understands that, Ian. The tool lover in me despises it. :-0

The other part is that as artists, they are probably drawn to more attractive tools. A classic Disston or Peace saw such as the one above has much better lines and handle shape than a 50's or 70's model cheapo.


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## shampeon

Jay, exactly. See also, beautiful old furniture buried in latex paint for shabby chic reasons.


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## DocBailey

I used to get all bent out of shape when I spied an old saw from the Golden Age of American Hand Tools painted up like a two-dollar wh*re.

Then, one day, it dawned on me. They were doing a great service to guys just like us. After all, I've never seen one where the saw has been modified. The paint is removed easily enough, when it's time to reclaim it. In the intervening years, it's protected from rusting any further, and to top it all off, it's invariably on display indoors-protected from the elements.

All in all, it's a fate far better than being scrapped or modified beyond use.


----------



## summerfi

I agree with you Doc. Better on a wall than in the dump. The wall hangers are just restorations in waiting. At least the people who paint saws and the people who enjoy looking at painted saws have some rudimentary level of appreciation for the tool. I guess it would be kind of like me appreciating opera.


----------



## ToddJB

Bob, I'm not sure how you can live with yourself ruining a perfectly good painting of a lighthouse.


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## shampeon

Todd: Wish I had this calendar.


----------



## ToddJB

LOL. Yep


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## Slyy

Bob, what a great save! Not to piss on the artist certainly (I know not your intent) but she's a lot prettier his way I think!! That brass guard is purty cool!


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## DonBroussard

@summerfi-Looks WAY better without Pemaquid Point covering the plate. Nice work on the tote repair too. Strong work there, Bob!


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## theoldfart

Bob, i like your version much better. Looking forward to some action shots when you are fully recovered.


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## JayT

Doc, I bow to your superior wisdom. Painted wh*re is better than rusted away.


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## TerryDowning

Nice job Bob!

Anybody have any issues with me cutting up an 1980's vintage Great Neck (no medallion) handsaw (filed crosscut but won't cut butter) for use as card scrapers and scratch stock? If yes, I will gladly send to you for resto and use for the cost of shipping. This is a surplus saw that I have no need for but could use some decent card scrapers.


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## chrisstef

I say dice that puppy up. Ive got an older Disston 7 that's sharpened down to almost a ships point that ive been contemplating cutting up, salvaging the brass and using the handle as repair material. I just haven't got the guts to do so yet.


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## donwilwol

I'm pretty sure that's what Great Necks were made for!


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## summerfi

Go for it Terry. If that doesn't yield enough scrapers, I've got a couple Warranted Superiors I'll send you.

Stef, could you make a little saw out of that no. 7?


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## chrisstef

I could certainly cut it down Bob and that's not a half bad idea ya know. Its missing a couple of the nuts if I remember correctly but they should be easily robbed from another donor saw.

Making it as nice as the one you did probably wont be possible though lol.

While I got you here, there wasn't ever a time where the stamp on the spine was put toward the backside of the saw. As in not on the business side with the handle to the right. Ive got a Moulson Brothers saw that ill be restoring soon and it appears to me that the spine was removed and flipped to the other side or the plate was cut down and the handle flipped from end to end. Its a small 8" dovetailer.


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## summerfi

I've never seen one with the stamp on the back side. I suspect it was a user mod for some reason. If it were mine I would set it up correctly during the restore.


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## chrisstef

That's what I had thought. Ill definitely be removing it and flipping it around where it should be. This one will be a fun one.


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## summerfi

*Before*: Disston 1878 - 88 12" backsaw.










*After*: filed rip at 14 ppi.










*Before*: Richardson Brothers 12" backsaw.










*After*: filed crosscut at 13 ppi.










I bought these as a pair. Since I already have an older and nicer Disston, I thought I'd sell the Disston to pay for the Richardson, but after restoring them I really like the little Disston too. I'll probably keep them both, at least for now.

The Richardson has a cool etch that says Made Expressly For Chandler & Barber, Dealers in Hardware & Mechanics Tools, 15 & 17 Eliot St., Boston Mass. The initials SBHS were stamped on the handle, which I believe stands for South Boston High School. Anybody go there?


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## donwilwol

I'll probably keep them both, at least for now.

that's how it starts !

but they do look sweet, so I understand.


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## chrisstef

Whoa ….. sweet looking is an understatement.


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## DocBailey

*Bob* - Great job on that tote repair on the Richardson.
What I find interesting is the amount of cant on that saw's blade.

A while back I posted this JD Darlington (a product of the Vulcan Saw Works, Brooklyn, NY /Harvey Peace)
The blade goes from 3" at the heel to 2 1/2" at the tooth-and no sign of slippage.
Like your Richardson, it's pinned through its nose and the spine at one end.


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## Brit

So nice at the end of a hard days sanding, filling and painting to be able to drool over a few of Bob's restorations.

Bob, I've got a crate full of saws that I thought I would sell but can't bring myself to part with. By the way, I googled the artist who painted that Harvey W. Peace and their work is now selling for six figures. Who knew? )


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## chrisstef

I think the canted saws give out such a different and more appealing appearance than those without any cant do. Sexy time written all over them.


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## summerfi

LOL Andy, April Fools was a few days ago! And if you have too many saws in that crate, send some my way.

Doc - Thanks. Interesting variation in the tote shape between the Darlington and Richardson. Same concept, just done a little differently.

I've wondered about the canted plates. Was it done intentionally, or is it an artifact of sharpening?


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## Brit

It was definitely done intentionally Bob, most probably to reduce the weight at the toe and improve the balance of the saw. It is true thought that sometimes the cant on old saws has been excentuated by multiple filings over the years.


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## shampeon

Aren't most of the canted back saws just not seated properly? As in, remove the plate from the spine, and you'll see that it's a square plate that has shifted upward toward the toe. I think I heard about it on a Logan's Cabinet Shop video.


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## summerfi

No Ian, the canted plates are actually narrower at the toe than heel. I made sure the plates were seated correctly on these saws during restoration, yet the cant is obvious on both of them. Plates can partially slip out of the spine, but that's a different question.


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## DocBailey

There are two different kinds of cant, I guess you might say

One is the result of the blade slipping out of the spine; the other is an intentional design.
This is what I was trying to distinguish in my last post.

Let me add to Brit's explanation-I agree totally with his answer, but have also heard and read many times that one purpose was to avoid oversawing a joint. In other words, as you cut down to the baseline on a set of dovetails, there is little chance you've cut beyond the line on the face you can't see.

One last piece of evidence that saws were made this way: Smiths's key (published 1816)


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## shampeon

Bob, see here. http://logancabinetshoppe.com/blog/2013/01/episode-47/

"It's common to find old backsaws who's spine has been knocked down too far at the toe, giving the saw blade a tapered appearance. While canted saws certainly were made for many decades up until around the end of the Civil War, they're rare to find on the old tools market. Most backsaws that we find by makers like Atkins & Disston have rectangular saw blades, not canted blades. The easiest way to tell is to look at the angle between the toothline and the toe and heel of the saw. They should be 90 degrees in a rectangular saw blade and different from 90 (but add up to 180) in a canted saw blade. Rectangular saw blades with improperly installed spines will also often appear to have the toe angled out in front of the spine instead of perpendicular to it."

Your plates notwithstanding, the point of the above clip is that most "canted" back saws you see have rectangular plates that have slipped higher in the spine at the toe.


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## Brit

And this: http://blog.lostartpress.com/2014/01/20/the-advantages-of-saws-with-tapered-or-canted-blades/

Also note that in the the Smith's key plate that Doc posted, the spines or backs are also canted i.e. they taper toward the toe, again to put the center of gravity further back and make the saw feel lighter at the toe.


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## summerfi

Ian, thanks for that video link. Obviously it can happen as you suggest, and I learned something. In the case of Doc's saw that has the blade and spine pinned together at both ends, it must be a true cant.


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## shampeon

Yup. I definitely prefer canted back saw plates, at least for dovetailing, but after seeing that clip I started noticing that almost all the canted saws I was seeing online had rectangular plates.


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## bandit571

Short Rust hunt today, due only $6 available, so









Six bucks, plus sales tax. The handsaw is not a skew back, but it is a Disston USA









Pate is sharp, and straight. NO rust! No pits at all. Even has a nice full etch!









Will now have to go and get a bottle of Glue Blue, I guess. Saw is an 8 pointer. Looks like at some time, the handle had been painted black









Also note the closed top on the handle. Nuts seem to be brass, but the Disston USA medallion almost looks like a steel one.

Figure maybe a dollar for the chisel, and fiver for the saw. Maybe a decent deal???


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## DocBailey

Ian
I have to disagree with you.
There is typically no room for a blade to slip higher into the spine as you have written. In every case I have seen (hundreds), the blade has fallen out of the spine at the heel, and/or the spine has lifted off the top edge of the blade and is far more proud of the mortise than when the saw was manufactured.

At any rate, a saw not originally built with a cant is often given away by some evidence on the blade-that it once had a different realtionship to the spine.
Moreover, the dead giveaway that a canted plate has been designed that way is that a right angle exists between the vertical edge of the blade at the toe and the horizontal underside of the spine.

conversely, a saw with misaligned plate (not a true cant)


----------



## DocBailey

Paging Bob …

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-H-DISSTON-Hand-Painted-26-CROSSCUT-Hand-SAW-Cow-Farm-SCENE-/231192851358?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35d42af39e


----------



## shampeon

Doc, I was quoting Bob Rozaieski from Logan Cabinet Shop. And my 1870s Disston dovetail saw definitely had a false cant (before I replaced it with a plate from Wally that has a true cant). In your drawing above, the handle would be on the right side. The plate was higher into the spine at the toe, and lower at the heel. Judging by the discoloration, on the plate, it had been like that for a long while. In a folded back saw, there's enough room for the plate to go at an angle.


----------



## DocBailey

Ian-my shot at clearing this up

I was addressing this statement in your original post:
"Your plates notwithstanding, the point of the above clip is that most "canted" back saws you see have rectangular plates that have slipped higher in the spine at the toe."

It seems we are now in agreement, since I wrote that the plate can't (no pun intended) go higher into the spine at the toe; it really just falls out of the heel end of the spine.

*More importantly*, my point was that the angle (as I have illustrated it) is the key-if this angle were 90 degrees on a saw with a "false cant" there would be only two possibilities: 1) someone filed the vertical edge of the blade at the toe so that it was perpendicular to the spine; OR 2) someone rejointed/filed the tooth edge to cant the tooth-line


----------



## summerfi

Paging Bob …

Awww Doc, that's such a beautiful serene painting. Actually that saw is already on my watch list. ;-)


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## shampeon

Sounds like we're in heated agreement here, then, Doc. 8^)


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## DocBailey

Well then, it sounds like just another boring night in Lumberjockville - just the way I like it.


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## bandit571

After a bit of research tonight, over at the Disstonian Institute site, learned the following items about that saw I bought today:

A D-7 Lightweight Pattern, 26" long 8 point crosscut saw. Shown in the 1953-1955 catalogs. True taper ground, with an all weather finish on the tote.

The medallion is a steel one, but the other half of it is brass, as is all the other ones on the saw. Tote does show signs of being painted black, is this the "all weather finish" talked about?

There is a BUNCH of set to them teeth, and they seem to be fairly sharp. Maybe just a refresh will be needed?

There is a small chip out of the top horn, or rather, the underside of the top horn. Might just sand it smooth, and call it "good"?

Any ideas on what to refinish the tote as? Natural? "Paint it black"? Should I try to improve that suggestion of a Lambs Tongue? Tote does seem a might blocky, maybe soften the edges a bit?

Yes, there is a readable etch to the plate, IF I hold it the correct angle to a light source.

And the big bonus? NO RUST! Means NO PITS! No cracks in the tote, other than that chipout on the horn. Figured this saw cost most of the $6 i spent, so maybe a $5 Disston D-7???


----------



## jordanp

Just finished making my self a split nut screw driver.









I was hoping some of the master split nut driver craftsmen in here( you know who you are) would chime in and possibly offer some criticism and maybe some suggestions on this piece as I hope to improve on this in the near future.


----------



## terryR

Oooh, that Disston with the cow scene has an Eagle Medallion…It might be worth $30 to see what's underneath that paint!

Hate to admit it, but my best friend IRL is an oil painter and woodworker. Has painted many vintage saws. Luckily, they never sold, so he stopped before painting his Grandpa's Disstons.

Maybe I can twist his arm, and get him to paint the saw plates battleship grey with a new etch! LOL.


----------



## summerfi

I like your driver, Jordan. I especially like the apple handle. I don't completely understand the screw setup, but if the threads are just in the brass ferrule, that might wear over time, or be a weak point. For cutting the slot in the blade, I used a small chain saw file, which left a nice round bottom. To narrow the tip to fit a screw slot, I just filed the last 1/8" or so, leaving the rest of the bit full thickness. I think you did a great job.


----------



## jordanp

Bob length wise there is a hole drilled into the center of the ferrule that it is 1/4" it is also almost as deep as the handle is long. The brass ferrule is permanently attached with epoxy.

Any standard 1/4 driver bit made for a modern drill fits snugly when pushed in by hand.
Then I drilled a set hole in the side of the ferrule that is threaded all the way into the hole your driver bit is placed in.

When tightened with the knurled screw by hand I can put the handle in a vise and pull on the bit with both hands and never pull it loose, yet I can twist that set screw and pull the bit with little struggle.


----------



## planepassion

Bandit, you did good. Six bucks is decent for a handle, brass, and in the worst case, a sawplate that could be repurposed as scrapers. I once paid $15.00 for a single brass nut and bolt-before I figured out that you're supposed to buy used up saws for parts.

I consistently find vintage saws in the $3.00-$6.00 range. Just picked up a $6.00 Disston D-8 thumbhole saw in a flea market for $6.00. It had a bad kink, but the handle and brass alone are worth the $6.00. Plus, I smithed out the kink, removed the rust, sharpened it, and it cuts like a dream! Big hefty saw plate, 4.5 rip with a ravenous appetite for wood 

Jordan, very nice screwdriver.

Andy, it's nice to see you back here. Hope to see more of you. The saw artist joke had me chuckling.


----------



## bandit571

A test drive of the D-7









and the after-math









Now, IF that idiot using the saw could just cut a straight line….

Treated 2x to make add-ons for some steps. Waiting on my corded dril to return home, so I can Tapcon the planks in place.


----------



## jordanp

I see more painted saws here that I do non-painted saws, however this is Texas so you won't find your typical lighthouse disston masterpieces, here we have saws covered in blue Bonet flowers, long horn cattle and barns.

*Where the saws are…...In Texas*
Below you will see why we have a lack of cheap decent saws in in the wild, here in North texas…

Examples of just some of the locations I have seen these "Texas" painted saw masterpieces: 
bathroom walls, inside a bank managers office, hanging in in the back window of a pickup truck. Daycare centers, inside Porta potties on construction sites, icecone stands, mall arcades, as well as every single independently owned feed store in the state of Texas, also has one.









(Above shows typical home interior wall in Texas)

In more densely populated rural areas you will Find a 37% chance the above said feed store will have more than one painted hand saw. (Possibly blue bonets and live stock) and they just happen to sell them as well.

If your from Texas originally and either of your parents have 2 or more siblings you will have an aunt that paints saws.









Risks were taken, new younger artists emerged on the scene, some even as young as 50. Artists were trying new things, but the purists of the saw painting world would never allow such pieces to gain any recognition.


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## summerfi

That's funny Jordan. Every chance you get, you should turn those saws around so the clean side faces out.


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## planepassion

Jordan, the handle of the bottom saw in the first picture might be from a No. 12. Which means someone needs to buy the saw, whack the artist in the behind with it, immediately go home and strip the paint off, and restore it to use.

Your description of Texas culture is funny. I can just see a gun rack in the cab of a pickup with a deer rifle in the first position and a Disston D8 in the second…


----------



## AnthonyReed

Good lord that Peace is phenomenal Bob! Outstanding Sir.


----------



## summerfi

Thanks Tony.

I had a once in a lifetime saw experience today. I sharpened a 100+ year old saw that had never before been sharpened by anyone else. Virgin steel. Very few people ever get to have that experience, and I feel privileged. I'm going to write it up in a blog post, so look for it in a few days.


----------



## theoldfart

Bob, thats cool. Saw your post on backsaw.net.


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## DanielS

I got a few thumbhole D 8 saws a while back. They are all pretty rough. I finally got a new handle on one, but need to sharpen it. I sharpened the larger saw, but it's got some tooth issues.



























I didn't do too much polishing to the blade. I've got another 28" that I'll be fixing up soon, but I need to play with this one and do some wood working first.


----------



## DanielS

I need to get some better pictures of this saw, but it is an L Wheeler 8 ppi cross cut. The plate is a lot thinner than most of the saws I have, havent measured it though. It's sharpened and cuts really well. The only paet of the etch that I can make out says "Carpenter's Friend" in a ribbon, with ground below that. The third pic is before I wiped the handle down with mineral spirits.


----------



## DanielS

I got a few thumbhole D 8 saws a while back. They are all pretty rough. I finally got a new handle on one, but need to sharpen it. I sharpened the larger saw, but it's got some tooth issues.



























I didn't do too much polishing to the blade. I've got another 28" that I'll be fixing up soon, but I need to play with this one and do some wood working first.


----------



## summerfi

Those are some nice saws Daniel. I especially like the Lemuel Wheeler saw. He was the son of Elisha Wheeler of Wheeler, Madden & Bakewell and later Wheeler, Madden & Clemson. Here is a link to a little more info on him.


----------



## DanielS

Thank you. I was going to send pictures to them as an example. The tote on mine is different from the number 20 they have. And the etch is a little more visible.


----------



## DanielS

Thank you. I was going to send pictures to them as an example. The tote on mine is different from the number 20 they have. And the etch is a little more visible.


----------



## DanielS

Thank you. I seem to be having some double post issues with my phone. I was going to send some pictures of my saw to the people at that site when I finally get some. The etch on mine is legible enough to read "Carpenter's Friend" in a ribbon and ground under it. Also, the handle/tote is less decorated than the example they show. There is also something like a wreath to the right of the legible etch, but no amount of blueing and sanding seems to bring it out.


----------



## Pezking7p

Jeez, this thread got busy.

For someone who has only sharpened two saws - both rip - what would be the likelihood of success of converting a rip-filed saw to crosscut? Also, what are the options for using a saw for both rip and crosscut purposes?


----------



## JayT

Dan, can't answer the first, but this article would give a good idea for filing a saw to be used for both rip and crosscut.


----------



## chrisstef

Pez - converting a rip to an xcut is going to be a lot easier than going from an xcut to a rip. You wont have to file out all of the pre-existing fleam. Im guessing that youd want a ppi of 8 or greater. I think that anything less will just be too coarse for ripping.

What kind of saw would you want to be a hybrid? From what ive read and understand a rip filed saw at like 12 ppi or greater will crosscut just fine without any alterations to the filing. All of my backsaws will xcut just fine while being filed rip. If youre talking a full sized handsaw I think that youll get too much blow/tear out on the back side of the cut with it rip filed.

I did a hybrid filing on a K1 for LJ 7footer with 10 degrees rake and 15 degrees fleam and it worked out pretty well in the few test cuts I did with it. I know theres an article out there on sash saws that are filed similar. Ill see if I can pull it up.


----------



## planepassion

Pez, I've found the reverse to be true. It's easier for me to convert a XC to rip than vice versa. The filing is SO much easier when I only have rake to consider.

What's the ppi of the saw you're looking to convert? The reason I ask is because it's good to have a course rip (4.5-6) and a fine rip 7-8ppi in your arsenal. And with handsaws so plentiful in the wild, why not just pick up one that is XC from the get-go?


----------



## chrisstef

Brad - do you typically file out all of the pre-existing fleam when converting a xcut to a rip?

Ive noticed that a lot of the rip saws ive sharpened have a factory(?) fleam filed into them. Its not much, maybe 5 degrees, but ive been wondering if this was standard for most rip saws of yore?

Just scooped up a pretty decent W. Tyzack & sons open handled, split nut, dovetail saw off the bay. Looking forward to that one hitting my front stoop.


----------



## Pezking7p

Thanks for the input guys. I'm asking because, right now, the only saws I have are a dovetail saw and a 14" backsaw filed rip (both ~12 tpi). I'm trying to avoid buying another saw that needs to be refurbished right now because I'm trying to finish my bench before my wedding.

Mayhaps I'll buy one and just file it, then refurb later. I'd like to have a 12" backsaw filed rip, though. Still don't have a full sized hand saw, either. Gosh, I'm behind.


----------



## planepassion

Chrisstef, filing out the fleam hasn't been a problem. By the time I joint the teeth, shape the teeth, joint them again and shape them again, the fleam is pretty much gone. And if it still exists in spots, I don't obsess about it.

I recently picked up a very nice Harvey Peace 8ppi panel saw. It was filed XC but I liked the feel of it so much that I refiled it to rip to fill a hole in my saw nest. It cuts like a dream. The steel is amazing.

If memory serves Matt Cianni adds a bit of fleam to his rip saws. Perhaps I'm thinking of someone else. I don't remember why people do that. But I haven't had any issues with a rip-saw sharpening profile of 5 degrees of rake, 0 degrees fleam and 0 degrees slope.

That W. Tyzack & Sons dovetail saw is going to look pretty sweet on your workbench chrisstef. I look forward to you sharing it with us.


----------



## chrisstef

Good stuff Brad. Like you, i dont get too crazy trying to remove all the fleam if its present. Im a subscriber to the 5,0,0 on rip saws as well. I have added a touch more rake on a really coarse 4.5 ppi to supposedly help it start a little easier.

I just got in a box of 5" xx slim Pferd files and im itching to use them. Theyre destined for a moulson brothers dovetailer and that tyzack. If im lucky ill get to tinkering on that MB tonight. Ill snap a few dirty pics of it in a little while.


----------



## chrisstef




----------



## summerfi

Love those vintage brass backs Stef. Gotta get me some. Are you going to repair the bottom of the handle?


----------



## chrisstef

Yea Bob. Id really like to fix it and give it a deep curl. All sexy like. Beech you suppose?


----------



## thedude50

I am looking for a Marples Tenon saw to match my Sash saw Heavy brass back is preferred if you guys see any like that please pm me with a link.


----------



## summerfi

Yep, being British, it's gotta be beech Stef. This is a Moulson handle. Maybe it will provide some inspiration.


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## chrisstef

Sounds like a trip to the lumber outlet. That'll hurt my feelings.


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## Brit

*Stef* - American beech is not the same as the old growth English beech that was used to make old British saw totes and neither is most of the European beech that I can buy over here.

See if you can pick up an old English beech wooden jack or jointer that is no longer any use as a plane. The beech in those old planes will be a much better match than any beech you're likely to find at any lumberyard and there's enough wood there to fix several saw totes.


----------



## Brit

*Bob* - That Moulson is a work of art. It that is your saw, I'd love to see some more photos of it.


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## chrisstef

Solid call Andy. Im on that hunt brother. I think I can come up with some apple wood too. Would that be the best color match if I cant come up with any old planes to chop up?

Bob thanks for the shot of that handle. After working on BHog's Thos. Tilotson saw I really fancy that deep curl of the bottom horn. I found it really comfortable in the hand and it gave good balance to the saw.

I managed to pop the spine off, and clean up most of the parts and pieces last night. Ill probably move on to putting the spine back on properly and sharpening it up tonight.


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## summerfi

I wish that was my saw, but no, it's just a picture I copied off ebay.uk. The saw has already sold for GBP 57. But you can see more pictures of it here.


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## terryR

Stef, you're so busy sharpening steel, maybe you should farm out that tote repair? To me! LOL.

I've got vintage beech (stanley trannies) and cherry (wooden level). Also have plenty of walnut for a new tote. This might give me a way to trade with you for sharp teeth? There's STILL no saw sharpening services on our farm, I'm too busy repairing some sloppy work left by a Professional foundation crew. cheaper than a lawyer. 

Sitting down and concentrating on something new and challenging, like sharpening teeth, ain't gonna happen for a while…but I can always steal an hour here and there for projects I'm familiar with…

That Moulson tote is sweet…similar to a Gramercy, but more flair.


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## chrisstef

I just might be able to handle this one Terry but I do have a couple saws that im a little more intimidated by. One being a Disston 12 (chip carved) with a busted upper horn and an early Disston 7 where the lambs tongue blew out. Maybe we can rock a swap on those bad boys.

Pferd file review should be up by this weekend provided all goes well with the honey do list and I get some time filing.


----------



## chrisstef

Fastest ebay shipping ever.

Heres my latest. A W. Tyzack, Sons & Turner dovetail saw. Im yet to spend much time with it besides a quick grope and fondle but here she is:




























I did notice that ill have to grind in some new slots on the split nuts.


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## Brit

Thanks Bob.


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## DonBroussard

I picked up an Atkins saw last week. No sign of an etch, but a nice clean Canadian medallion and an intact tote. Not sure of the wood type on the tote.




























Where the ppi of the saw is normally noted on the heel, there is a clear "2" in that spot, and it doesn't appear that it was ever a "12". I'm puzzled. Any ideas?


----------



## bandit571

About got this one re-furbished









Yep, a steel medallion, but the rest









are brass. Have yet to do anything to the tote, as it doesn't really need it.

Stamped as an 8, appears to be a crosscut 26" saw. Disston D-7 Lightweight saw from about 1953, or so….


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## summerfi

Don - that appears to be a rosewood tote on your Atkins. I have a rosewood Aktins too. I'm not sure about the 2 on the heel. It could be what's left of something like 5 1/2. Another (slight) possibility is that, being a Canadian saw, it stands for 2mm tooth spacing. How many ppi is the saw?

Bandit - The D-7 is looking good. Have you sharpened it?


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## chrisstef

Any thoughts as to how to grind in a new slot on that split nut fellas? Dremel? Punch it with a screw driver? Carve it out with a knife?


----------



## bandit571

Not yet, just needs a bit of stone work on the right side, and it will be good to go. Too much set on the right side, making it pull that way in a crosscut. Haven't done a thing to the tote, either. Seems to be a decent saw.


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## bandit571

Maybe use a "cape chisel" the right width to cut a new slot….

It is Brass, afterall.


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## chrisstef

Good thought bandito. I don't have any cape chisels but I do have a set of beater chisels that may do the trick.


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## DonBroussard

@Bob-The Atkins looks like it may have come from a dairy farm, since it's full of cows and calves. Best I can tell, it's 12 ppi. I also thinks the tote is rosewood.










I tried to get a better picture of the "2" stamp. I still don't see any number preceding the "2" but it does look like it's double stamped (may be just a rebound stamp).


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## JayT

The Atkins looks like it may have come from a dairy farm, since it's full of cows and calves.

Had to laugh at that one.

2mm spacing should be ~12 1/2ppi, so still could be a possibility, especially with the poor sharpening job.


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## racerglen

We didn't do the metric dance til the late '70's or so, that'd put 2mm a tad off base for that.


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## JADobson

You beat me to it Glen.


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## JayT

I stand corrected. Of course I'm not old enough to remember that transition, even had I been Canadian.


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## chrisstef

Pretty cool D100 thumbhole with no action ending soon.

http://bit.ly/1lNXWFx


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## summerfi

Stef - on removing the split nuts, Toby made a suggestion some time back that I thought made sense. Epoxy a hex nut to the split nut. Remove when the epoxy sets. Then remove the epoxy. I don't remember how he said to remove the epoxy, but I think you could either soak it in acetone or use heat. After the expoxy is gone, deepen the slots with a hacksaw.


----------



## planepassion

DO ANY OF YOU USE A 10" BACKSAW? AND IF SO, IN WHAT ROLE?

Just picked up a 10" Disston, 13 ppi as a bonus addition with something I bought on Ebay. Just trying to fit it into my saw nest. Thoughts?


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## summerfi

I've completed a blog entry on the restoration of my big J. Taylor & Son rip saw. If you'd like to read it, it is here.


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## chrisstef

Dovetails Brad.

Im working a 10" saw as we speak


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## planepassion

chrisstef, that was a revelation. Thank you.

That would explain why it cuts for crap on crosscuts and slices like butter for rip cuts (which I just tried after your response flipped on the light bulb.) It cuts a lot sweeter than I expected because it looks like a goon compared to my Lie-Nielsen DT saw. Excellent. This one is going to go into my planned Dutch tool chest.

Is that a brass-backed beauty you're working on there?


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## walden

This was my latest woodworking saw acquisition. Disston D8. Its hard to tell in this pic, but it has a real nice shine on the blade and still has the engraving on the blade. It's 5.5 PPI Rip and will cut a pencil line in half for the full length of a cut. I'm very happy with how this turned out.


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## summerfi

That D-8 looks to be in very nice shape. Did you restore it?


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## walden

Summerfi - No, bought it that way off Craigslist for $55! Luckily I live in a very dry climate, so it doesn't seem to have suffered. My guess is someone cleaned it up a bit though. I reshaped the teeth and gave it a sharpen, that was about it. It looked like it had hardly been used.

Nice restore on your two saws. They look amazing!


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## WayneC

It is beautiful Walden.

Jim Bode posted this saw on Facebook the other day. He posts photos of a lot of wonderful tools. I thought you guys would like to see it…


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## summerfi

Beautiful old No. 43 Wayne.


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## chrisstef

Brad - yea its a late 1800's Moulson Brothers brass back that I recently acquired. Im hoping to have it wrapped up this weekend. Its got a funny patch of teeth toward the heel that's gonna take some work to put right.

Good score on that thumby there Walden, shes in great shape.

Thanks for that pic Wayne, what a beauty.

Bob - I do remember Toby saying something along those lines. Great recollection you have. Ill dig back in the thread and try to find it. Thanks bud.


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## walden

Wayne - Beautiful saw in that picture. That is my Holy Grail of saws you just posted. Would love to own one some day. I came across a panther head saw at an antique store once and my jaw dropped. I asked how much they wanted…$900! "Uh, I'll pass."


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## summerfi

walden - Here you go, this one's got your name on it.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/121313302608?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649


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## walden

Ha! Thanks summerfi, but it's out of my price range. I did ask that antique store how long the saw had been for sale there…6 years!


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## Mosquito

oooh, I really like that saw. I first saw one of those when I was researching on a Woodrough & McParlin saw that I had picked up. Wasn't a panther, but still had a nice looking tote


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## ErikF

Just thought I would share a saw that I'm wrapping up. I had a guy ask if I could make him a few saws using copper instead of brass…in the past I have had bad luck using copper for saws due to it's complicated machining capabilities. Regular copper (110) is just too soft and acts more like mud than metal when cutting with a saw or lathe so after some research I decided to try copper (145 - machinable copper). It is more expensive but well worth the investment if you decide you want to use it for a project. Anyway, here is what I've been working on. It's a 20" x-cut with 9TPI. It's a joy to use and I am becoming more and more of a fan of the added stiffness from a halfback. Now I need to finish getting my flypress put together, it took some time and files to tooth this saw.


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## summerfi

Erik, that looks fantastic. I'm sure the owner will be well pleased. Did you use an 0.32 plate?


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## Brit

Lovely job Eric.


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## ErikF

Thanks gents. Bob- it is a .032" plate, I wish I had some way to taper grind the plate. I read some discussion about it on here a little while back and started doing some thinking…what about a head surfacing machine? I regularly see ads on craigslist of shops selling off old equipment for low prices and from time to time see these machines. I think you would be able to build a jig for one to get very accurate grinding on a plate.

On a side note, I have a question for those of you that also refurbish hand planes. Were there or are there plane makers that use a dovetail slide to attach the frog to the bed? I was thinking about it and came to the conclusion that this would keep the frog square to the mouth, it would also make for easy and accurate adjustments to the mouth opening. Any thoughts?


----------



## donwilwol

Erik, I've yet to see a dovetailed frog on a plane.


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## Airframer

Pretty good deal on a pair of Veritas Carcass saws $100 bin for both http://www.ebay.com/itm/Veritas-Lee-Valley-Rip-and-Crosscut-Carcass-Saws-/191135202403?&_trksid=p2056016.l4276


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## walden

Erik - Nice work. That is one beautiful saw!

AF - That is a good deal. Looks like they were hardly used.


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## Pezking7p

I'm sure the veritas saws are great, I just wish they weren't so ugly. Still a tempting deal.

When I filed and set my 10" backsaw, I misunderstood the knob on my set and accidentally gave it the maximum amount of set. It seems like the saw will cut straight, but it also will easily wander, presumably because of the giant kerf. What's the best way to fix this? Just joint the sides of the teeth until the set is acceptable, then joint the tops and re-file? I'm kind of gun-shy on filing my next backsaw.


----------



## Airframer

Pez - A twoby and a few soft taps on both sides then re-set the teeth.


----------



## DocBailey

*Pez*

have a look here


----------



## Pezking7p

Brilliant. Now if only I had a vise, lol.


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## planepassion

I'm liking the copper accents Eric. Well done.


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## BigRedKnothead

Add one more to the chorus Eric. Your doing some fine work. I've always preferred the tone of copper over brass.


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## chrisstef

Whats the group consensus on the existing state of this saw plate? Its been cleaned as well as possible. Im not so worried about the pitting up by the spine but the patch at the tooth line at the toe kinda worries me. I plan on keeping one of these little dovetail saws for me. Either the Moulson Brothers brass back or this one. Im not sure.


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## summerfi

Stef - while the pitting looks a little nasty, it may not affect use too much if you intend to keep it as a user. The pitting along the toothline would affect the potential to sharpen the teeth more as a xcut than as a rip. If you were going to replace the plate, though, now would be the time to do it. I've seen some "resto-saws" with replaced plates sell for high prices on ebay, so that would be an option worth considering if you think you'll sell it.


----------



## JayT

I'd say take Ron Bontz up on his offer. You won't find pre-punched plates for $15 apiece very often. I'm buying one from him to replate a 10in Disston backsaw that has a 1/2inch long stress crack going up from the toothline.

If it had an etch, I might feel differently, but that's not the case. Even if you order a new plate and then decide not to use it on this saw, you could always utilize it to make a saw in the future.


----------



## chrisstef

That's the exact angle I was going with it JayT. I had saved Ron's post about saw plates. For 15 clams plus shipping I could have a top notch user all for meselfs.

I also tend to agree with your take on it Bob. I think id rather have a brass back as my user from an aesthetics standpoint but this one will cut as it sits if it were to be mine.

I guess ive got some decisions to make Thanks for the input guys.


----------



## summerfi

I have a question about something, so I'd like to take a poll of you guys to see if there is a consensus. I'm making a reproduction of an early 19th century saw found in Smith's Key. Smith called it a Gentleman's saw, but we would call it a panel saw.










For the plate, I'm re-purposing the plate off an old WS saw. I've cut it to length (22") and shape, and I've cleaned some of the crud off it, but it still has a lot of the staining left for now. I'm making the handle out of a piece of West Indian Satinwood with a bit of a wavy figure. I've finished rasping the handle, but haven't started smoothing it yet.










When this saw is finished, I'll more than likely sell it if I can find a buyer. I'm at a crossroads with finishing the saw, though, and need to make a decision about which path to take. Path 1 would be to leave the staining on the plate and distress the handle to try to make the saw look old. I have no intention of trying to fool anybody into thinking this is an old saw, but some people might prefer a reproduction saw to look old. Path 2 would be to continue cleaning the plate to make it as shiny as possible, and finish the handle to look like new. The saw would still have the form of the original, but would look new, or nearly so. The plate would likely still have a bit of staining.

So here's the question. Imagining yourself as the potential buyer of an 1816 reproduction saw, which would you rather have, the old look, or the newer look? There are no right or wrong answers, just opinions.


----------



## theoldfart

Bob, any chance of you sending me the saw for a few weeks so I can study it and get back to you? 

I'd take Path 2. If i want an old looking saw I'd get an original. I don't have a problem with a shiny reproduction.


----------



## JayT

If it was going to hang on the wall, I'd want an old look. If I was going to use it, the shiny reproduction.


----------



## DocBailey

Bob
i don't think you'll ever get that plate to look brand new-and so I say"age" the handle. But be advised (if you're not already aware) a believable aged treatment consists of layers of different and subtle tones (along with wear in the expected areas) and heavily oxidized fasteners.


----------



## summerfi

Doc - Yes, I'm aware, but I may feel like crying if I decide to take screwdriver and claw hammer in hand and start distressing the handle. LOL

Another option I'm considering is finishing the handle as new, cleaning up the plate some more, and then bluing the plate. I've done that to a couple other saws and they looked pretty good. Perhaps I should have started with new steel for the plate.


----------



## walden

That handle looks great! I'd want shiny.


----------



## Brit

Bob - I've no doubt that whatever you decide it will look terrific. Personally though, I don't think that old pitted plate does that handle justice, so my vote would be to make a new plate and save that one until you find a suitable old handle to mate it with. Probably not what you wanted to hear though is it? )


----------



## donwilwol

shiny or old? One of each would be perfect!

I think you'd get buyers on both sides of that. Either way you go you can't loose.


----------



## dbray45

I use all my tools so put my vote in for "new" it will look old soon enough. So, what is the price for this saw?


----------



## Pezking7p

My vote is for new. Handle looks awesome.


----------



## summerfi

Thanks for all the suggestions. The majority seem to prefer shiny, so I think I'll finish the handle to look like new, then finish cleaning the plate up and see how it looks. If it's not as shiny as I'd like (and I don't think it will be) then I'll blue it. The plate has some hammer marks from someone beating on it, and I'm pretty sure they will show at a minimum.

dbray45 - No price yet, that's down the road a bit. But feel free to PM me an offer. ;-)

Andy - I agree new steel would be the best, but that would mean this is a completely new saw end to end, and I don't think I'll go that route. However, bigger things are coming! I am making plans to build a complete set of saws from scratch. This will include about 10 saws ranging from a small gent's saw to a large rip hand saw. All that's holding me back is learning to etch and developing a proper medallion, but I'll be working on both soon. Then it's off to the races! Here is a very preliminary list of specifications, and input would be welcome. I may in fact build two sets of these saws simultaneously. One I would build a fancy case for and keep them unused to pass on to my posterity, the other I would sell as a special one time only edition. Big plans, and hopefully I would live so long.


----------



## ToddJB

Bob, that's a cool undertaking. If you decide to auction them off, I'll start the bidding at $50.


----------



## Brit

Surely it has to be upwards of $1000 for that nest of one-of-a-kind saws.


----------



## ToddJB

Andy, is that your bid?


----------



## Brit

Unfortunately not. The postage would kill me on that lot. Mind you, I am coming to the US next year to tour California in an RV. Maybe I could convince the wife to make a small (Ok big) diversion to Montana to collect the saws in person. I'll have to bring an extra suitcase.


----------



## summerfi

LOL wait a minute here. Who said I'd be done in a year? I'm thinking in terms of decades. Do I hear two thousand?


----------



## chrisstef

Better start catering to us younger guys then Bob!


----------



## ToddJB

Two decades? Where's your work ethic? And in two decades two thousand might not be enough.


----------



## chrisstef

All but sharpened.


----------



## walden

It's looking good Stef!


----------



## Slyy

Stef, that the bleached one? I gotta say that stuff seemed to work out pretty well! I'm impressed. Pited maybe but that doesn't stop it from looking good and working well!


----------



## summerfi

Looking good Stef. Were you happy with how the bleach performed?


----------



## Brit

Very nice Stef.


----------



## chrisstef

Thanks fellas. It is the bleached one and ive got to say that the bleach worked pretty well. Next time I would really pay better attention to removing every drop of the old finish though. There's some spots where I half assed it and you can tell. I am pretty happy with how it turned out though, it was rough when it came to me. Ill probably get to sharpening tonight. Hopefully I can knock it out in a few hours provided I don't go cross eyed.

I also found an old molding plane in a box of extras I had buried in the relics that's got a QS beech body. I plan on cutting it up to fix the busted horn on my brass backed moulson brothers. I might also try out some ruby button shellac on the handle. I used amber shellac on this one.


----------



## ErikF

Motivation for me to get up early and "work" before going to work. A few g. Ebony totes that that need some attention…
That's a beautiful job you did on the tote there stef.


----------



## summerfi

That's an impressive saw nursery there Erik. They will be beauties when they grow up. Where do you get that nice ebony?


----------



## ErikF

I picked it up at a local hardwood dealer. I stop in now and then to see what they have and was pleasantly surprised when I finally found a board wide enough with no major checks to use for totes. The stuff is hard as a rock but is silky smooth when sanded and scraped.


----------



## TerryDowning

Speaking of "work" before work, that's my usual shop time lately 20-40 mins in the shop before I head out the door.

Finished re-handling this 1980's vintage 12" back saw mfg not known but guessing a great neck or some such budget hand tool from a department store.










I used Isaac's 12" carcass large template from blackburntools.com This is a great site by the way, I found his blog series on making a saw very helpful. Isaac has all kinds of templates as well. a 10" DT saw kit is now on my wish list. I already cut out a handle. I was going to do the open handle on this saw, but there was not enough material for the existing holes, so now I have a 10" open handle DT saw handle with nothing to do.









wood is Mahogany of some sort that I've had laying around for years and was thick enough to do the job.










Finish is BLO with 2 coats of shellac

Nothing special. This is the saw I experimented filing rip from Xcut (this was a mistake.) On closer inspection a similar 14" saw in my possession (Which will also get a new handle) was already filed rip so I may try my hand at filing Xcut.

This one still needs a lot of file work and attention









and definitely needs setting properly (I don't have a saw set yet)

It drifts to the right and is a bit tight in the kerf.









but it drifts consistently and cuts cleanly (not bad for a second attempt at filing if I do say so myself.


----------



## chrisstef

Clean work there Terry. The handle came out really nice. I haven't had the gumption to try one yet. As far as that errant tooth, I wouldn't even sweat trying to file it out and wasting all that surrounding steel. It should even itself out over time in another 5 sharpenings or so.


----------



## summerfi

Excellent job on that handle Terry. You really did well.


----------



## TerryDowning

That's what I was thinking. It does need to be set though.

Recommendation on saw setting tools?

Thanks Bob,


----------



## chrisstef

Ive got the Somax set (the gold one) from LV. They offer a blue one that would be used on finer teeth. I find the hammer to be soft but it works. I just took it apart a couple weeks ago and filed it down a little bit to make it work on smaller teeth instead of buying the blue one. Ive got a Stanley 42W(?) but ive only used it once so I cant say much about it.


----------



## ToddJB

That handle looks great, Terry. Good job.


----------



## DonBroussard

ErikF and TerryD-Nice wood selection and shaping on those saw totes. Smooth and shiny.


----------



## TerryDowning

I think Somax (Lee Valley and tools for working wood) and the Great Neck on Amazon are the only new ones available.

I recently watched a Paul Sellers Video on filing down a saw set to work with finer teeth. He says it still works fine on larger saw teeth, and I'm not going to argue with Paul's 50 plus yrs of experience on the issue.

Thanks Don and Todd

Hoping the next one comes out at least this good pr better.


----------



## summerfi

Terry, I've got the Somax gold and blue. Bought them used as a set on ebay for $10. They work fine, but as Stef said the anvil is too soft and deforms over time. So, they're not a lifetime tool, but they work well when new. I'd look for a quality used one on ebay. The Stanley 42X is the gold standard, but they are spendy. You might want to try a different Stanley or a Millers Falls or Craftsman.


----------



## chrisstef

Saw weirdos … Ever seen this marking underneath a handle on a split nut, sunken medallion era Disston?










Ive seen an "X" on my 12 in the same spot but these look like initials. JO.


----------



## summerfi

Nope, that's a new one. I've seen a 7 there on a No. 7, but never a JO. Maybe it was the initials of the maker?


----------



## chrisstef

Coulda been Bob. Theres no other markings on the saw or handle to confirm unfortunately. In any fashion i thought it was interesting and a worthy post to the saw world.


----------



## summerfi

Here's a screenshot from this web site. It appears makers sometimes did stamp their initials under the handle. Maybe old Henry even did it himself.


----------



## chrisstef

Ha! I just finished reading that same webpage. Very informative. The saw dates to 1876(ish). I might try and find some makers of that era if the interwebz will allow me such pleasure. I love me some galootology web searchin.


----------



## summerfi

Here's a video of them making your saw, Stef. I love the part where they're stamping out the teeth.


----------



## Airframer

That is a cool video Bob! Love watching old manufacturing methods.

My latest acquisition.. not a wood working saw really but I use one of these a lot while making wood working tools. An older Milwaukee High Tension Hacksaw..



















Still needs a cleaning and the hinge bolt needs a bit of help but it is solid and way better than my old cheepee HD number. A cool thing is.. I think it has some dudes name and SSN on it. Shows how old this thing is. Must have been owned before identity theft was huge lol. I think I'll try and remove that for him… just to be safe.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Finally working the horn repair on a Don Yoda / Atkins saw…


----------



## Wally331

So I finally got some rust hunting in this spring, went down to an antique mall called "rustiques emporium" There was a nice no.4 for around 25$ and some real nice saws- but they had been painted. I saw two real nice atkins and a disston no.12, the unpainted sides were nice and rust free, but at 20$ dollars a piece it's still hard to justify. The atkins would make good users at that price, and I think I could sell the Disston No.12 for upwards of 60-70$. The owner said to come back in a week and he would have all the tools finally sorted out (I've been waiting about a year already haha.)

I'm finally getting running again with making saws, I am delivering a murphy bed to a customer today and I will get a good 500$ out of that, I'll get some nice lumber and other materials, and most of all I will have my space back! Lots of work to do as always though.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Much better.



















(Pictures of handle with oil/wax applied)


----------



## summerfi

Here's that little Smith's Key reproduction saw after I blued the plate and finished the handle. The bluing is a little streaky, but doesn't look too bad. In retrospect I should have used different steel. Someone hammered on the plate in the past and left several dimples in it. I got them out as much as I could, but they are still visible. It shouldn't affect performance, but doesn't look great. I don't think they show in the pictures.

The handle is West Indian or Jamaican Satinwood. Not a traditional handle wood, but it would have been available to the British during the period this saw would have been made (late 1700s or early 1800s) I've read that 90% of the mahogany furniture made in England in the 19th century came from the West Indies. The wavy figure looks pretty nice.














































The image of the original is a little bit of a caricature, but I think the reproduction is a fairly good representation of the original saw.


----------



## Brit

Hooray - Smitty's bringing some of his magic to saws. Long may it continue.

Bob - That turned out great. I love the satinwood.


----------



## chrisstef

Love the chip carved handle Smitty. Solid work.

Bob. Wow. Satinwood is killer. Wonderfully done

Teaser:


----------



## DonBroussard

I posted a pic of an Atkins saw I picked up a few weeks ago in Tulsa. You might recall that this is the one with the "2" stamped as the pip on the heel. I just derusted it and shined up the plate. Dry scrubbed with a gray Scotchbrite pad, followed by dry scrubbing with the green pad. Having discovered no etch, I went at it with the ROS up to 220 grit and finished up with a sanding block with 800 grit. I didn't sand the tote-all I did was clean it up with Murphy's Oil Soap and reassembled. She looks nice, but is certainly not a worker again until the sharpening process is completed.

Before:










After:


----------



## summerfi

That cleaned up nice Don. The rosewood looks great.


----------



## JayT

Bob, that saw looks great. The tote is gorgeous.

Nice cleanup, Don. Gotta love some rosewood.


----------



## Slyy

Don that rosewood handle is purty!

Bob that saw is, as all your work, outstanding. That handle is pretty cool as well. I like the satinwood waves and the interesting flattened portion at the bottom of the tote.

Stef, now you've got me wanting to take the totes off my older saws and see if I've missed some subtle stampings.
That seems like a reasonable deduction that the individual maker may have stamped his name on the plate, or perhaps some version of line supervisor? All the same, adds more to the wonderful story the tools have to tell.


----------



## Airframer

Cross post from the MBOYD thread but My SW #246 arrived today!

Opened the box and was blown away at how clean this is already. It does need a bit of scrubbing but really not much.

PICS!










And YES it has the cam thingy!



















She's a Sweetheart too!  The Disston saw even has the SW logo etch (very faint though.. might try to gun blue that a bit).



















It also came with a couple partial hard to find bits.. will have to fabricate the rest.


----------



## theoldfart

Eric, nice score. Looking forward to the restore.


----------



## Brit

Some stirling work going on here fellas. Keep it up.


----------



## ErikF

A good Easter morning, 2 saws finished (one won't get a finish).


----------



## ToddJB

Erik, those are gorgeous.


----------



## theoldfart

Erik, that striped tote is da bomb, as is the milled brass spine.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

My fav. detail is the toe Erik. A guy can have a lot of fun designing saws.

My Mitre saw is back from a Wally restore. New Padauk handle on the Warrented Superior. Pimp:


----------



## lateralus819

Jeez how long is that thing?!


----------



## theoldfart

^ ;-)


----------



## BigRedKnothead

That's what she said…..lol. Couldn't help it. 26"


----------



## theoldfart

How much under the spine Red?


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Looks like 3-3/4" Kev. Should last my lifetime;-)


----------



## theoldfart

Yea, not bad for being short! All of a sudden iv'e got four mitre saws and three mitre boxes. Don't know what happened, they just appeared. 

Wife thanks I should sell one, not a chance. They are mine, all mine, ya can't have 'em.

er excuse me, my evil twin just showed up.


----------



## ErikF

Had to share a little early morning saw stuff. I have been setting up a fly press in my spare time in order to speed up the toothing process and finally have it punching teeth. There is some fine tuning to do and I also need to work out a good way to control the pitch. Anyway, here it is…


----------



## summerfi

Looking good Erik. Once you get it operating as you like, you should post a video so we can see it in action.


----------



## j_dubb

Saw this while browsing craigslist today and thought of this thread. Woodbridge, Connecticut - "Vintage saws"

I'm not really in the market, but thought some of you fine folks might be.

http://newhaven.craigslist.org/atq/4418891934.html


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## LeTurbo

Now see what you've made me do! I was reading this thread and went out and spent a whole $20! So here I have these mainly Distons, with a Jackson thrown in, and a few others I haven't examined carefully yet. Some have a degree of buckling, mainly at the tip, but could be saved. I'm guessing these aren't particularly valuable examples of the genre (Summerfi, "gentleman's saw" sounds so much better than "panel saw"), but they'll do some good work yet. I'm armed with "The Practical Woodworker", circa 1910, and plan you set them straight (in a manner of speaking). The Steigo is already doing service.










First question - and I'd love to go through the whole thread, but 6767 replies would take valuable time from saw restoration - is how to loosen the handles? There's a flat screwhead on one side, but nothing to grip on the other. And the wood draws the Q20 faster than I can spray it on.


----------



## chrisstef

The shank of the screw is squared and should sit in a squarish hole inside the handle so no need to worry about one side spinning while you try and remove the slotted screw. That is unless somethings out of whack inside the handle. In that case I usually just clamp the handle down to the bench to hold he unslotted portion in place while I remove the back side.

Nice load of saws there.


----------



## summerfi

LeTurbo - Now you've done it. There's no hope for you now. You have saw fever, and it only gets worse as you begin to breath in the rust dust when you start cleaning those saws. I don't see any jaw droppers in that bunch, but $20 for 11 saws is a good deal any day. I still think you should read the 6770 posts in your spare time though. It's good entertainment if nothing else.

Re: the Gentleman's saw, I agree it sounds quite nice, but it's too easily confused with a gent's saw, which is a short saw with round handle, also known as a dovetail saw. We have to keep saw terminology complex and confusing or everyone would take this hobby up.


----------



## bandit571

I have a Stiego. Liked the tote, nice and comfy. The plate was junk. Had a Disston that the tote was a plywood junker. Hmm, combined the two parts. Now have a "hybrid saw" in the shop, with two medallions…









Even works in the yellow plastic mitre box…


----------



## summerfi

Bandit, do you call that saw a Steiton or a Dissteigo? BTW, what creature would you say that is on the Steigo medallion?


----------



## chrisstef

Thats a bucktoothed tiger bob. No doubt about it. Also known in Latin as beaveromus tiegras.


----------



## Slyy

Leturbo, pretty dang nice haul there bud! Oughta keep you happy and busy for a while!!!

The archetypal beaveromus tiegras:


----------



## LeTurbo

Haha, thanks guys. Chrisstef, all the saws seem to just have round thingies, without any square. I managed to get one out; it's a bit like the bolt that holds the main cog on my bicycle, if that makes any sense. Anyway, I'll persevere. Maybe the old shock-with-a-hammer trick, or a bit of hot-and-cold. Summerfi, I'm trying to drop fleam into ordinary conversation - it's a kind of masonic handshake for those in the know. And now I'm cross the the Steigo doesn't have a medallion.


----------



## bandit571

It is an SDHS…..Steigo-Disstonian Hybrid Saw. Just a small apnel saw. LOVE the feel of that handle, never a blister using it.

There is a series of three videos, from a fellow in China. In these, he is making a wooden Jack Plane, from scratch. He also uses a Frame/bow saw that looks like it had never, ever , been jointed, but cuts wood like HOT butter.






Hope I got the link right.. He is talking in mandirian. Just turn the sound down, sit back, and watch the fun. Hatch as a driver for a mortise chisel???? YEP!


----------



## bandit571

The Steigo Medallion on mine does not come off. Seems to be a tack sort of thing. I could take the tote off, and not even remove the medallion. The disston supplied the "new" saw bolts, and a Disston Medallion.

Disston plate was superb! Steigo tote was VERY comfy! Best of both worlds?

Steigo used a Chinese Lion as their Medallion iimage.


----------



## richardwootton

Does anyone have any experience with Adria saws? I'm thinking about getting their large tenon saw, or the Wenzloff and Sons large tenon saw. I'd go with the Veritas, but it's just not the prettiest saw out there . . .


----------



## chrisstef

No first hand experience RW but both are very reputable from what i know.

I finished up the cleaning of this Disston 7 xcut. Its the earliest hand saw ive gotten my hands on, dating 1874-1875. The handles repaired with a different wood but it was well done. I chose to just epoxy it back as it was with no further modifications. It looks like it just needs a touch up sharpening but we'll see after a jointing.


----------



## summerfi

Looks good Stef. I remember that handle from an earlier picture. Did you do the bleach treatment on it?


----------



## chrisstef

I left this with out the bleach Bob. I felt like i lost a little bit of the fleck when i bleached the last handle but it could have been my sanding effort as well so im testing out the waters here. It just got a quick quasi french polish with amber shellac.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Has Glen Drakes saws ever come up on this forum? I know some folks think pretty highly of them. Interesting concept- no teeth at the front and back of the blade. For those who struggle to get a dovetail saw started, I could see how getting the momentum of the blade going first would help. 








Funky hot dog handle.


----------



## Slyy

Some of his other equipment has been discussed elsewhere but don't recall seeing/talkin about these saws.

It certainly seems to be an interesting design, I can understand the appeal of a joinery saw like this. It would be worthwhile to try one out if I ever got the chance, getting up to ramming speed with the smooth part of the saw before the teeth engage would certainly make it easier, I would think, to get the saw going. Definitely not seen a design like that before.


----------



## summerfi

That handle really ought to have some ketchup and mustard on it.


----------



## Mosquito

Red, he also sells a two handled saw of the same fashion (that is to say they're next to each other, and both angle slightly away from center).

I tried one at last years Lie-Nielsen hand tool event here. It was ok, but not really for me


----------



## Brit

*Red* - Never tried a Glenn Drake saw, but I've always wondered about the no teeth at the toe. Why? Well I'll tell ya.

As you know, when you want to do an accurate crosscut you create what Paul Sellers calls a knife wall and when you want to do an accurate rip cut, you scribe the line and chisel out the corner on the waste side of the line. In both these cases, you would be setting the toe of the Glenn Drake saw without any teeth in your mark against the 'wall'. However when you pushed the saw forward and the teeth were engaged, the teeth on the wall side of the cut would not start cutting against the wall as on a normal saw, but into the wall (i.e. over your mark). That's what confuses me about the toothless toe if you catch my drift. You wouldn't have that problem on a saw with set all the way to the toe. Like I said though, I've never tried one so I could be talking out my backside.

I know thedude50 has one and loves it.

*Bob* - That raised a chuckle.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Ya, it's one of those things I would like to try at a tool show. I believe the blade are disposable…...disparaging to hand saw purists. But interesting nonetheless.


----------



## john2005

Sooo…other than really pitted, what do you make of this?










One says Disston, one says Warrented Superior.

Either way, ideas for the blade?


----------



## Brit

If the rest of the handle is in good condition, I'd put a new plate on that one John. You can sand the pitting out of the back.


----------



## summerfi

John - does the spine have a name on it? That should tell you whether it's a Disston or a WS. Either way, it looks like a nice saw, and as Andy said, a new plate would make it really nice. The handle sure looks like an older Disston.


----------



## summerfi

I recently bought a lot of 3 saws to get one saw that I particularly wanted (more on that in a future post). One of the "other" saws in the lot is a skewback Supplee Hardware "Royal Steel" saw. Supplee hardware operated in Philadelphia from 1856 to 1905, so this is a good quality saw, and likely was made by Disston. Somehow over the years, though, the saw lost it's handle and someone put this grotesque thing on it. It is from a later model Disston and has a silver colored, probably aluminum, Disston USA medallion. Henry Disston would roll in his grave if he knew the company he founded eventually started putting handles like this on saws carrying his name.










In considering what to do with this saw, I thought about making a new handle. However, I couldn't find an image of another saw like this to know what the original handle looked like, and I didn't really want to invest that much time in the saw anyway. So, I set about modifying the handle to try to make it more presentable. Here is the "after" picture.










I think it's a big improvement, but this will never be the best looking handle in the world. Here is the saw with handle installed.



















The saw is 7 ppi filed rip. It will go on my sales list and make someone a nice user. It would be especially good for someone with large hands, as I can easily fit 4 fingers and a thumb in the large hand hole.


----------



## Brit

You made a nice job of that Bob. Much better IMO.


----------



## chrisstef

Solid work Bob. You made a decent looker out of that handle. I need to start looking out for some of the more off branded saws made by Disston. My collection is seriously lacking in that department. Have you tried the gun blueing on the etching yet?


----------



## summerfi

I've tried bluing the etch a few times Stef. Sometimes it works well and other times not so well, depending on the saw. I've found that if there is any pitting or factory grinding marks in the vicinity of the etch, those get blued too. I can usually see where I applied the bluing even after I've sanded it off.


----------



## chrisstef

Ahh I gotcha. I could see how it would make things blotchy then and a real giant pain to remove. Safe to say that you need to be kind of choosey on the saws you blue then. That early 7 I just finished up had like 1/2 an etch and I was kind of tempted to try and darken it up a little but I don't wanna screw it up. Glad I asked.

I just got a funny feeling like Andy's been holding out on us with some saws. I know you had shoulder woes and spruced up the shop but I cant believe you haven't been trolling for saws.


----------



## LeTurbo

Ah! Summerfi = Bob. Hello Bob! That handle looks much better now. Just quickly, getting back to the "no teeth on the toe" discussion and Paul Sellers, he actually shows (on Youtube, natch) how he files a gentler angle on the first two inches of the saw so it's easier to establish the cut. Only after the saw is settled in its niche does he use the whole blade. I think I'll try it; none of that "jumping saw" stuff. Maybe that's the Glen Drake theory too.


----------



## Brit

*Stef* - Still got to do certain exercises, but my shoulder is now about 95% there. Really I just have to use it and what better way than fitting out a workshop.

I think I have about three hand saws and two backsaws that are waiting to be restored and sharpened, but unless I see something I just can't say no to, I don't plan on buying any more saws from ebay. I've got some lovely African ebony blanks that are waiting for me to make my own set of backsaws (about six in total). It won't be for a while yet though. The workshop is my primary focus this year.


----------



## chrisstef

Glad to hear youre close to 100% bud. Ebony blanks huh? Sounds fancy pants, I like it.


----------



## Brit

Yep Summerfi = Bob and LeTurbo = ? Don't worry, you don't need to say if you don't want to.

Regarding your comment about Paul Sellers filing a passive rake (i.e. a 30 degree negative rake on the first inch and approximately 15 degree negative rake on the second inch, before he files the rest of the teeth at zero degrees of rake in the 'power zone'. This will make your saw less grabby when you start the cut. Another alternative is to file the first two inches of teeth at a smaller pitch, so if your saw is 15ppi you might file the first two inches at 20ppi.

In my experience though, I don't think either of these things are necessary. Try this first. Assuming your saw is sharp, hold the teeth just off the wood and as you push forward gently lower the teeth until they just skim the surface. At this point you are are still supporting most of the weight of the saw. In the next stroke, allow a bit more of the saw's weight to bear down on the wood and on the third stroke (by which time you will have established a kerf), allow all of the weight of the saw to bear down on the wood but don't add any more pressure. Your job at this point is to just move the saw back and forth in one continuous motion. If you try this 50 times on some scrap, it will start to become second nature and I doubt you'll need any stabilizers on your bike if you catch my drift.

If you think about it, Glenn Drake created a saw where the first two inches have no teeth. Why? So you can get the saw moving forward before the remaining teeth are engaged. The momentum you've established is enough to keep the saw moving forward without the saw 'grabbing'.

Paul Seller files passive rake on the first two inches. Why? So you can get the saw moving….you know the rest now.

The method I describe above is no different. You are moving the first two inches of teeth in air without touching the wood and as you gently skim the surface of the fibres in the third inch you've already established a momentum. The only difference is that when you come to file your saws, you can file your teeth at one constant negative rake angle, say 5 degrees. An added benefit is that once my saw is established in the cut, I get more cutting power from the whole length of the saw than I would if the first two inches of the plate were filed with a passive rake or had no teeth at all.

Like I said though, just my opinion. At the end of the day, there's more than one way to skin a cat. )


----------



## summerfi

Andy - the way you described starting a cut is the way I learned to do it when I was just a little shaver. It became such second nature that I've never really thought about it until you mentioned it. I'll add that the proper use of the thumb on the non-sawing hand is critical to this technique. It also helps if you hold your mouth just so. ;-)


----------



## Brit

Thanks for chiming in Bob. I was just thinking that I should have mentioned the importance of the non-sawing hand to guide the saw and now I don't have to. I know a lot of people use their thumb and there's nothing wrong with that. Personally, I like to pinch my thumb and first finger together and let the saw ride against the tips. Either way works, it just comes down to what feels more natural to each individual..


----------



## ToddJB

That was very enlightening. I've never though about my technique in starting a cut. Bob or Andy can you explain or have a picture of thumb/thumb and finger placement of the non-sawing hand?


----------



## summerfi

__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content




















__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content










Just some example pics from google.


----------



## ToddJB

Makes perfect sense. Man, this is why I suck at golf, too.


----------



## Airframer

Now how 'bout a picture of how your mouth is to be "just so"?


----------



## Brit

And if you look at my saw sharpening video and fast forward to the *43:43* mark, you'll see me talking about my method, which I think I picked up from Rob Cosman if my memory serves me correctly.


----------



## Brit

If you insist Eric…


----------



## Airframer

Ahh.. that must be where my technique needs help then


----------



## JayT

Ahh.. that must be where my technique needs help then

Yes, the thumb thing can really help. You couldn't have been referring to the mouth just so. Since Andy used a pic of you for the example, you seem to have that part down.


----------



## Airframer

My apologies.. I thought that went without saying.. should have clarified!


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Well this pales in comparison to the epic mitre box restore Eric is undertaking…but oh well. I got this Stanley cleaned up ok and ready for use. The saw was restored by Wally, as I posted earlier.




































I still need to tune her up a bit. The cut is a hair off square. I actually think it will get a fair amount of use in my shop. Furniture making doesn't usually require tons of batched out crosscuts. Just a few here and there. We'll see.


----------



## Brit

Looks great Red. How exactly do you "tune her up a bit"?. Shims? I take it there is no micro-adjustment as such. I've got zero experience with a miter box as you can probably tell. ) Don't see many like that this side of the pond.


----------



## JayT

That's looking sweet, Red. I still need to get my miter box cleaned up.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Actually Andy, I was sayin' I still need to tune it some….and I'm gonna have to research if there are any adjustments. DocBailey sent me a bunch of great mitre box info, so that should help. Mitre boxes are completely new to me as well. At least the kind without a cord.

Mostly all I did was give it a thorough cleaning, fabricate a new crossbar (cut off in pic), and make a new sacrificial board.


----------



## Airframer

That looks Great!

A bit of mitre box trivia I learned yesterday…

Apparently the "Hold Downs" on these boxes aren't designed to hold the work piece square to the fence but rather to allow complex angles on crown molding which needs to be held at 45*. You can also use them to "extend" the back fence to accomplish angles that aren't built into the box… The more you know!


----------



## theoldfart

Red, could you share some of that info Doc sent you? I just got a 244 and need to get it back into shape.


----------



## Airframer

This should help you guys out.. in the instruction sheet on page 2 is all the adjustment info for these boxes..

http://www.tooltrip.com/tooltrip9/stanley/stan-mbox/mboxman.pdf


----------



## summerfi

I just removed my first backsaw plate from its spine, and I must say it was harder than I anticipated. Maybe this (16" Groves) isn't a typical saw. I had to pound on this thing hard for a long time, using a white oak block and a big hammer. At first the movement was almost imperceptible. There were a couple of times I thought about giving up. But gradually, little by little, it did come out.

As you can see below, the plate was rusted in the spine. The plate was full depth at the toe, but completely out of the spine at the heel.










This brings a few questions to mind, and Andy, you've probably done this more than anyone else here, so I'll direct them mainly to you.

Is it typically this hard to remove a spine? Is brass easier than steel? If not, how do you keep from destroying the brass spine? What is the best technique for cleaning rust out of a 0.020" slot? Should the new plate be seated as deep as I can get it, or at some intermediate depth? Why is the old plate angled on the top at the toe end, and should I make the new plate the same? Thanks for tolerating my abundant questions.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Sure Kev. They're all in pdf so Doc emailed them to me. Pm me your email and I'll forward them.


----------



## Brit

Q1: Is it typically this hard to remove a spine?
A1: It varies Bob, but it can often feel like you're having to hit it harder than you think you should. I had a 12" W Tyzack Sons & Turner with a steel back that just wouldn't budge until I was really swinging the hammer.

Q2: Is brass easier than steel?
A2: Yes it is Bob. At least that has been my experience.

Q3: If not, how do you keep from destroying the brass spine?
A3: I usually drive the back off the plate by using a flat bladed screwdriver. I start hitting it under the spine at the heel end where it fits into the slot in the handle. I've never damaged the brass yet, but if you did, at least you wouldn't see it by hitting it there. Once it starts moving, you usually don't have to hit it so hard.

Q4: What is the best technique for cleaning rust out of a 0.020" slot?
A4: I don't usually worry about it too much. Before I remove a back I usually liberally apply some 3-in-one oil to the open end of the back and let it run down inside. This also helps in removing the back.

Q5: Should the new plate be seated as deep as I can get it, or at some intermediate depth?
A5: In a folded back, the plate should go into the back about halfway allowing space above the plate to re-tension the plate at a later date if it becomes necessary. It should not be fitted full depth in the slot. If you look at the following photo, you can see the witness line on the saw plate and imagine where the edge of the plate was in the spine above.










Of course when you refit the back, you will know the actual amount the plate should go into the spine because only when the depth is correct will the holes in the plate line up with the holes in the handle while at the same time, the spine fits full depth in the handle slot.

Q6: Why is the old plate angled on the top at the toe end, and should I make the new plate the same?
A6: Never seen that before Bob on mine or anybodyelse's saws.


----------



## summerfi

Thanks Andy! That's very helpful.

Red, that's a beautiful miter box, and likely the only miter saw in the world with a Wally handle.


----------



## Brit

By the way Bob, you'll be pleased to know that it is easier to refit the back than it is to get it off. Take a look at the Gramercy videos I linked to in Saw Talk #23. He uses a fancy whacker shaped a bit like a small cricket bat. I just use a 2" square length of softwood. Don't be scared to hit the teeth, you won't do them any damage. The softwood takes a right beating though. )


----------



## summerfi

I remember seeing that video. It's a little counter intuitive to hit the teeth rather than the spine, but it sure seems to work well. In the case of this saw, I think I'll wait until the plate is inserted into the spine to file teeth on the plate. Every day a new saw and a new adventure!


----------



## chrisstef

Great info exchange there guys. Droppin knowledge.

The one back i had removed was tough to get off too Bob, and it was brass. It came off a Moulson Brothers with about half swings of a good steel hammer against an oak block. It was about half way in the spine at the heel and about fully buried at the toe. Pic for reference:


----------



## john2005

Definitely some solid stuff. The saw I posted does have Warrented stamped on the spine. Where would a guy get a new plate? I would like to make this a user and the handle is pretty nice. The spine, not so bad. The saw plate is pitied very deep and not very straight. The spine is straight though. Just not sure where to begin on this one.

Thanks all


----------



## summerfi

John - Blackburn sells backsaw plates. I believe LJ Wally331 also sells plates occasionally. Another option is to buy 1095 shim stock and make your own plate. I buy mine from Amazon.


----------



## DocBailey

Bob, Andy

Re the misaligned plate-this is what what discussed way back in posts (#6605) this thread


----------



## Wally331

@Erik, man your new saws are really beautiful, I love your dovetail saw handles. I was on the very verge of buying some zebrawood myself, but opted for a gorgeous piece of bloodwood instead. Keep it up man, awesome work with the fly press too! You'll be cranking them out like crazy now. The panel saws are the worst for me, they take sooo long to tooth, I'd love to have that setup.

Bob, really nice restores as always, that satinwood is very beautiful, how does it work with handtools? Similar to mahogany or sapele?

Stef that no. 7 looks great, really interesting repair. The guy who owned that must've really prized that saw to make such a well fit repair. I think he would've been proud so see it now.

Andy I'm glad to have you back, the saw forum wasn't quite the same without you. I'm looking forward to seeing your set of backsaws! Ebony at my local lumberyard is 155$ /bd ft so it is sort of out of the question..

So i finally finished up that murphy bed, god that was a big project. I had to finish the entire thing in my bedroom because it was too big to take up the steps from my low-ceilinged basement. The house smellt like poly and wax for a month haha! I have been extremely busy lately studying for the ACT and having track meets and practices. I got a 29 on my ACT so I can basically go to college anywhere I can afford. Most likely UW Madison for mechanical engineering but who knows at this point!









I've been filing some plates over the past few days and working on some more sapele handles. I love this stuff! Works like a dream with sharp tools and it holds sharp details nicely. No problems with finishing but I think I'm going to try shellac soon. Don't have any new completed saws but here is some eye candy anyways. 12 inch sapele and brass backsaw, 11ppi rip on top of that nice piece of bloodwood. The pictures really don't do the grain justice, the color is so nice and it sands out silky smooth.


----------



## summerfi

Wally - beautiful job on the Murphy bed and on the saws as always. You have some rare parents who let you do your work in the house. Give them a lot of appreciation.

The satinwood is a medium hard wood that works very similar to mahogany. I haven't tried sapele, so I can't say on that. Keep the strong work coming Wally.


----------



## planepassion

It warms the heart to see Andy back among us. I already learned a lot about variable rake filing in the first few inches. Never would have thought of that.

Andy, you're doing some shop upgrades?

Wally, your saw-making skills continue to advance. That handle is beautiful.


----------



## planepassion

I have a question for you backsaw filing enthusiasts.

I picked up a nice Spear & Jackson 14" sash saw with brass split nuts and a lovely lambs tongue.

I was thinking about using it for a) general crosscut work in conjunction with a bench hook, plus b) for rip cuts like shallow tenon cheeks. I was reading and article (at the saw blog?) that told the story of how sash saws were filed to complete both XC and rip cuts. He recommended a 10 degree rake, 10 degree fleam configuration to be able to make both cuts.

I like the idea of having one saw for the two cuts. My thought is that this saw will travel with me in the Dutch tool chest I'm building. So that would eliminate the need for a second tenon saw (filed XC) as well as a carcass saw.

Thoughts?


----------



## summerfi

Brad - Our favorite saw guru (Andy) talked about that in this blog post. Should answer most of your questions.


----------



## john2005

Checked out Blackburn. I might be over my head….again.


----------



## summerfi

John - why not clean up that plate and see how it looks, then make a decision about what to do. It might turn out better than it looks now.


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## Brit

John - +1 to what Bob said.

Just to give you another option. Dom at TGIAG (stands for Two Guys In A Garage) has been selling plates of different thicknesses cut to size for a long time. Great guy who will be only too pleased to answer any question you might have.


----------



## Brit

Thanks for the welcome back guys. I can't tell you how many times I was reading this thread and thinking "I know that…" but I couldn't type. LOL.


----------



## chrisstef

John - Ron Bontz was selling plates for a second around here too. Here's the link: http://50.115.35.242/topics/59737 I agree with Bob on cleaning it up and seeing what she looks like. Youll know pretty quickly if you should abandon ship or keep going on the cleaning.

Great work all the way around Wallly! Both in the shop, your bedroom (lol), and at the books.

This thread feels whole again. Sniffle.


----------



## john2005

Clean up it is then. You boys ever flatten a plate out? It's not bad. I could post pics this eve. Just a little wavy is all.
Bob I was thinking of you the other day (and not in a Steffie kind of way). I was blasting the cobwebs off the road bike on the Big Flat Loop which takes you down Mullan. One of these days I'll get over. How's the leg doin?


----------



## planepassion

Summerfi, thanks for the link to the Andy post.

Now that I read it, I do remember scanning it when he first posted it. However, because I didn't have a need for a sash with a hybrid filing at the time I forgot about it. Now, with my freshly-acquired sash saw begging to be filed, I read every syllable. And you're right. It answered many questions and then some. THE number one question I had was how Matt Ciani's filing configuration works in practice. Where else on this planet could I find someone besides Matt (whom I follow avidly) to discuss the subject in detail, besides Andy.

I should have known to look on Saw Talk first!


----------



## summerfi

Come on over John, and bring the backsaw. I'm starting to get around a little better. I'm using a cane, but the doc says I can give it up when I feel like it. I can stand for filing a saw, but have to sit periodically to give the foot a rest. It still gets pretty sore.

On straightening the saw plate, have a look at this .

Brad, as you well know, Andy is THE MAN for saws. ;-)


----------



## Brit

Of course what we really need Brad is someone with 4 backsaws exactly the same and the ability to file each one to a different hybrid configurations. Then take each one and make a few cuts in the same piece of hardwood and film it. Personally, I don't like hybrid saws but I can understand the attraction of them.


----------



## Mosquito

+1 to Andy's point to Dom at TGIAG. I just got through e-mailing him earlier this week, and placing an order with him


----------



## ErikF

I was lucky enough to find a piece of gaboon ebony with enough width for tote material. I really like how clean of a look it has. Finished it this morning so I figured i would share it.


----------



## ToddJB

That is stunning. Can you see any grain in it?


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## chrisstef

Straight sex appeal with that saw Erik. Bravo man. I think the slightly curved toe really distinguishes it.


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## racerglen

Erik that is drop dead sex on a board !
WOW !
(Andy, you'd lost the use of BOTH sides/arms ? )


----------



## ErikF

Thanks gents. I usually sell the saws when they're done but I think I'm going to hold on to this one, I can't get over how nice ebony looks. Luckily I still have 2 more totes coming from the board!

Todd- Up close you can make out a little bit of the grain but it is a very tight wood. Without any finish you can achieve a silky smooth finish. This is my first time working with ebony and will be keeping my eye out for another good board.

Do any of you do any turning or need accent material? I have some small scrap pieces that need a good home.


----------



## Brit

No Glen, but typing with one hand isn't much fun when you're used to touch typing with two hands. I had to use only my left hand for my computer use during the day (an average of 12 hours) for both mouse and keyboard, so I promised myself that I would not prolong my recovery by typing socially when I didn't have to. I'm now back to touch typing with both hands and using my mouse with my right hand again. The one good thing that has come out of it is that I'm now an ambidextrous mouse user. LOL.


----------



## Brit

Nice job Eric, so did you put any finish on it? If so, what did you use?


----------



## Pezking7p

Opened thread on the airplane. Now I have to hide my erection.


----------



## richardwootton

Let your freak flag fly brother!


----------



## Gshepherd

Erik, that is one sexy looking saw…..


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Man, there have been a lot of awkward sexually charged posts on LJs lately…..lol


----------



## richardwootton

Only fitting Red…almost done with the refurb of the saw I got from Stef, which I got surprisingly quickly. If only he could finish his bench with the same expediency!


----------



## Brit

Ever since Erik posted his Gabon ebony saw, I couldn't wait to get home and see what the African (Gabon) ebony I am reserving for my saws was going to look like. Erik's ebony is much blacker than mine and I like both samples personally. It goes to show the variation that you can get in this wonderful species (Diospyros Crassiflorus). Although you can't see it in the photo below, this piece and a couple of the other pieces I have contain some rippling which I'm looking forward to putting a finish on.










Damn you Erik, now I want to build saws when I should be clearing out my workshop. ) So many projects, too little time.


----------



## Slyy

Erik that saw is absolutely stunning with that ebony tote! The extra touch on the shape of the plate and spine definitley set it apart!

Wally your tote has such great shape and grain to it. Not worked with sapele but I do have a nice plane tote sized portion TerryR sent me a while back. Gonna give a go with it soon!


----------



## summerfi

After seeing your rehabs, Andy, I'm expecting the saws you build to be the greatest ever made. Get on with finishing that workshop; I want to see some saws!


----------



## ErikF

Now that is going to be a a beautiful saw tote, Andy. I really like the sweeping curves and the lack of hard lines…I may incorporate a bit of your style into the next saw I build. I look forward to seeing your finished product.

TerryR- If you're watching, I spent a few hours turning brass this morning and will have your split nuts ready to go before Monday!


----------



## Brit

Just to be clear, that isn't my own template. It is one that Isaac at Blackburn tools has made available for download on his site. If I lived in the US, I would just buy my saws from Isaac period. I love everything about them and the care and attention he puts into building them. However since I will be shaping the totes myself, I intend to use his templates as a starting point, but change a few minor points to make them appear more in the 'English' tradition. I feel like I've restored enough saws now to know what I like. I just wish I didn't have to work. LOL.


----------



## Brit

Bob said: "After seeing your rehabs, Andy, I'm expecting the saws you build to be the greatest ever made."

HAHA! - No pressure then Bob.


----------



## donwilwol

No pressure, just perfection. I'd be surprised to see anything else.


----------



## summerfi

^ +1 what Don said.


----------



## chrisstef

Ill chime in with a +2.

Dont worry Andy, nobodys watchin.


----------



## thedude50

Andy asked me to discuss my experience with Glen Drake saws. I have used 2 of them and own one Its a great saw . Things I love are the easy to exchange plates and the stiff back the ergonomic hang angle is a huge plus. It did take a while to get used to the saw as its like a gentz saw handle only much larger so the handle does not register in your hand I found this to be the saws weak point for a new sawyer it could be quite frustrating to make the saw line up once you relax your grip on the tote and you let the saw do the work its a dream to use. I use this saw quite often on both rips and cross cuts it has a progressive tooth pattern and has dead space at the heel and toe that lets you make longer strokes. the other saw I used was the gun slinger 2 handed saw it is a great tool and is a wonderful dovetail saw I think I will buy one in the near future. it uses the same plate but has two totes it had no learning curve it cut strait easily and quickly I use it to cut dovetails and they rocked right out of the gate.


----------



## Wally331

Here is that wonderful no. 12 from that antique shop. My wonderful mother heard me talking about and picked it up for me on easter. It is a bit of a mystery to me as to what type it is exactly. Based on the very thin nuts and medallion she is between 1876 and 1888. Classic no 12 style handle and under the handle it has an "x" and an "e" stamped. X for extra refined I believe, not sure what the e is for though. The plate seems to be in great condition and it is at least protected by rust from the paint.




































As you can see though, there is no nib, not even a cut-out for one. Is it possible this is a rip ship saw? I have never seen a saw this old without a nib that wasn't a ship saw, or maybe it was just a custom order?


----------



## chrisstef

I hope theres a mint plate under that paint Wally. Good save from moms.

Just started jointing the teeth on that xcut 7 and ohh boy, its all over the place. Looks like im going to have to take down the teeth by about 1/2 if not a little more. Ive got some filing ahead of me on this one.


----------



## summerfi

Wally - a couple of possibilities. Someone could have shortened the plate beyond where the nib used to be. How long is the plate now? The other is that it's not the original plate. You will know that once the paint is off. That is, if you have the heart to kill those cute little birdies. A Disston that old would have originally had a nib I'm sure.

Stef - I'd say 75% of the saws I get have a toothline so messed up it's a major challenge. I've had to take 1/2" off portions of a couple saws just to get them straight. Back when people made their living using these saws, they never let them get in that shape. I think it's the casual users and farmer John types who are to blame.


----------



## chrisstef

Thats the weird part Bob. I would have thought, that with the quality of the repair done to the handle,the toothline would have been in great shape. As soon as i sighted it i knew i was in for work.


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## Brit

Maybe I'm getting soft in my old age, but I quite like the birdies on that saw Wally.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Not to be contrary for the sake of it, Bob, but I'm told this was my great grandad's user. He was a dirt-poor framer/carpenter type. Made a living pushing a wheelbarrow of tools, doing odd jobs in the 20s and 30s of the last century.










There was certainly no attention paid to jointing the saw. . Bless his heart…


----------



## Brit

Thanks for sharing your experience of the Glenn Drake saw Lance.


----------



## Wally331

It actually is a very nice painting, its really too bad he had to do it on such a beautiful saw. There are 4 others just like this one, 20$ each, all top of line saws…. I told the owner of the store that if he see's any more saws with handles like this to set them aside for me haha! I think he could be making twice as much as he is now selling them as-is on ebay. Is there any way to save the painting? I mean i could scan it onto a paper and glue the paper onto one of my 1950's disstons…. 

Anyone have any tips as of how to go about removing the paint from the handle? Based on the crack in the horn it is most likely apple, but possibly mahogany? (90% sure its apple) And for the blade should I just use paint stripper?

Erik and Andy, I am jealous of your ebony! My lumberyard started stocking holly recently, maybe I will make the opposite of your saws.


----------



## richardwootton

I would probably just give paint thinner or mineral spirits a shot to start out with, but I've never tried.


----------



## summerfi

Smitty - Having your great granddad's saw is a real treasure. Do you have any of his other tools? I have some of my granddad's tools, but there were carpenters in my family at least a couple generations further back. Sure wish I had some of their tools. Yes, it appears saw jointing was not high on his priority list.

Wally - I used paint remover on that painted Peace saw I posted awhile back. It worked well. I'd recommend using it on the handle of your saw too. You could take closeup photos of each individual bird and print them out on photo paper. Might be kind of nice to keep them with the saw.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Bob, three saws and a small line level is what we have of my dad's grandad. Thought once my uncle had more, he didn't. From what I've seen, there was no money to buy quality tools. It was all about getting what worked and could be afforded, nothing more.


----------



## racerglen

My grandfather died in 1957, this was his D-7, latest date it could have been made by my limited research skills would have been 1917 ?
22.5", 10 ppi, tpi.


























Some day, one day, I'd like to fix the handle. Still cuts like, well, like he still had it.


----------



## richardwootton

Glen, thT D7 looks great man!


----------



## summerfi

Smitty - I can certainly relate to no money. My Appalachian roots were about as humble as they come.

Glen - That's a nice little No. 7 panel saw. D-7 came along in 1928. Prior to that it was the No. 7. The No. 7 was the first saw made by Disston and was one of the best saws ever made. That handle would be well worth fixing and wouldn't be too hard of a job. Really nice etch on your saw too.


----------



## racerglen

See Bob, I said limited reasearch skills ;-)
The etch had a wee bit of help, some light Andy sanding with a block, but otherwise what you see is the way he left it !


----------



## summerfi

Glen, another observation about the etch on your saw. According to the Disstonian Institute , "By the early 1900's all etches featured the abbreviated phrase for Registered with the U.S. Patent Office." This looks like REG. U.S. PAT. OFF. and would appear just beneath the words Patent Ground. Since your saw doesn't have this, it must be an earlier saw. As best as I can tell from the picture, the medallion appears to be of the 1896 - 1917 vintage. If so, then your saw would be from the earlier part of that period.


----------



## racerglen

Thanks Bob.
It's definetly a keeper !


----------



## wreker

Hi,
I know it's not much to go on, it's barely visable, but I'm hoping someone here can identify this saw etch. Maybe the shape and the couple visable letters will make sense to someone with more knowledge than me.
Thanks for the help.









Higher res


----------



## summerfi

wreker - Now that is a challenge. There just isn't much to go on in that pic. However, after fiddling with the brightness and contrast a bit, I may have an answer for you. I believe I can pick out the words BAY STATE. Bay State was a secondary brand of the Simonds saw company in Fitchburg, MA.

See if your etch looks like the picture below. Sorry for the picture quality; it was the only one I could find on the Internet.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Adios Red. You were ugly and we never liked you anyway
. 
. 
. 
. 
See what I did there?

Saw on the interwebz that Grease Lightening cleaner removed aluminum anodizing so I knew it had to be fact. 
























-
Wait til you see the new cocobolo handle Terry made me. Pimp sauce.


----------



## Brit

Grease Lightning Go Grease Lightning.


----------



## Brit

Bob - Great detective work.


----------



## lateralus819

What did you do! Heh, to each his own. Have you seen the titanium ones? They look pretty cool.


----------



## ToddJB

Woah. Sweet trick, Rojo.


----------



## chrisstef

Does it work on freckles Red?


----------



## BigRedKnothead

I dunno Stef, I used gloves. Maybe I'll try an "inconspicuous" spot tonight.

I can't help it, check out the new handle Terry made me in trade:









If usps loses it….I will go postal.


----------



## Brit

Terry the turner! That is a thing of beauty. Man's an artist.


----------



## donwilwol

Holy Cow Terry. Your wood pick was perfection!!


----------



## summerfi

So which did you trade for that Red, an arm or a leg? Terry the MASTER turner!


----------



## wreker

Summerfi - Much apreciated. That seems to match the outline of the etch on the whole and I could make out the A,Y,S, and T. I would never have even known Bay State was a brand.


----------



## Wally331

Terry that is sweet, its to bad cocobolo is so expensive, I'd love to try some.

I finished up this dovetail saw handle today, I made the hang a little more aggressive from my last one, it definitely looks more natural. The sapele ended up having a bit of curl in. Pictures don't do the grain justice. Anyone up for a cardboard saw?









I also made a backsaw handle. It has even more curl but only one coat of finish as of right now so you can barely see it. I'm making a set of 3 or 4 saws from the same board and hopefully selling them as a bundle.









Gotta mill some more backs this week! Finally making progress on some stuff. Just started working on a small cabinet/ gerstner style toolchest for my files and saw sets. The conversation about inherited tools has been really interesting. I have a few of my grandfathers tools, namely a Stanley 45, and a ton of starret stuff as he was a millwright. Also have some machinists tools from my great grandfather. My grandfather immigrated from Austria around age 6 and fought in ww2. Its pretty awesome to be able to use tools that are 2 or even 3 generations old and have a story behind them.


----------



## john2005

My grandfather was an alcoholic and didn't even leave me any good whiskey. I don't know what that has to do with anything but there ya go


----------



## Mosquito

Those totes look good Wally.

I bought a plate from TGIAG last week, and have some lumber for the handles, but haven't quite decided which I'm going to use yet. Going to make a small panel (or toolbox) saw first, and see where it goes from there. It's something I wanted to do a year ago, but it never quite worked out.

I've got quarter sawn ribbon sepele and quilted soft maple…. decisions decisions


----------



## chrisstef

You got some eye Terry. That's the nicest damn hot dog handle ive ever seen.

Wally - keep up the good work my man!


----------



## ToddJB

All, just watched a Stumpy Nubs video where he recommends 6 panel saws that should cover the field of your panel sawing needs.

He says in XC a 6, 10, 14 ppi and in Rip a 4, 8, 12 ppi.

What say you?


----------



## bandit571

I might have them IN the tool chest, now









Four panel saws, one backsaw. Have no idea what those other things are…


----------



## bandit571

i put that fourth one in after the photo shoot.

May 15 is MY Birthday, so I have to stay around here. Besides, the van won't make that far, and @ 8mpg, I can't afford the gas bill. Off work on the 14th, and 15th, but have to work the entire weekend. Bummer.

Last time I was down that way, Uncle Sam paid my way. Some little *********************************** town called Leesville. North Fort Polk. Alligator Lake. Stand along the roadway, with a bus ticket, hoping the bus would stop.

And man! That Morning AIR at the place…......Alligator turds and pine needles….


----------



## chrisstef

Ive been pondering that for quite some time Todd. From that list I think that the 14 ppi xcut would be redundant as the 12 ppi rip would crosscut just fine at that pitch. In my opinion that is.


----------



## ToddJB

Good to know, Stef. After seeing his list I took a look at what I had (all in need of restoration) and I'm far from diversified.


----------



## summerfi

ToddJB - I guess it depends on how you define panel, and thus panel saw. A 6 ppi xc and a 4 ppi rip would seem to indicate an awfully heavy panel.

Here are some definitions of panel saw I found:
Webster - a handsaw with fine teeth for cutting thin wood (as for panels). 
Oxford - a light saw with small teeth, for cutting thin wood.
Collins - a saw with a long narrow blade for cutting thin wood.

The emphasis seems to be on thin wood and small teeth.

Given that, when I think of panel saw, I think of something like 8 to 11 ppi in a xc and 6 to 9 ppi in a rip. It's all relative though. The tooth pitch should be appropriate for the thickness of your stock so that, IIRC, you have about 5 teeth in the cut at any one time.


----------



## ToddJB

Thanks Bob - when it comes to saws I am but a wee babe and you are an intellectual giant, comparatively - so forgive me for the lack of correct verbiage.

I guess what I'm getting at is, when I'm rummaging around yard sales and the like, what handsaws (to keep it generic) would you recommend I keep my peepers pealed for to get me set up for success when it comes to making big pieces of wood into smaller pieces of wood?


----------



## chrisstef

Are you talking like you want to ditch your table saw and do full 6'-8' rips by hand or do you just want a couple saws to help out when you don't want to fire up the corded toys?

For me, I think I fall into the latter group, less noisy. Ive had good luck lately grabbing a 10 ppi xcut panel saw that's about 20" long and an 8ppi rip panel saw that's around 18" long. My 26" 5 ppi thumbhole has sat on the shelf since I sharpened it. It looks real nice but super long rips seemed forever destined to the tablesaw for me.

There's so many different configurations that you can create with hand saws that I find it mind numbing to peg down what will work best.


----------



## Brit

Take a look at what Mike Wenzloff has to say about what saws of different lengths/ppi are called.

http://www.wenzloffandsons.com/faq/31-general/43-sawselection.html

I bet you didn't know that now did ya? )


----------



## ToddJB

Stef, I'm the latter, as well.

Andy, that is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks!


----------



## summerfi

Todd - Since you're talking about the full range of handsaw possibilities, then (excluding backsaws), I would say this. Used hand saws are still cheap enough that most people can afford several. I would acquire a range of saws that include tooth pitches from about 4 to about 12, and a mixture of rip and xc. Six, as Stumpy suggested, or maybe even 8, would not be a bad number. I would also acquire an assortment of lengths, from about 20" through 26". If you had that variety of configurations, you'd be able to handle about anything that came your way. It looks like you're at least half way there with the saws you have pictured. If you learn to file saws, you can always change the configuration to fill out your nest. It's a good skill to have, and anyone who is serious about hand saw use should learn. It's not that hard.


----------



## WayneC

I would think Stumpy would have been studying this thread.


----------



## chrisstef

I think spotting a decent handsaw in the wild can be a little intimidating too. The differences can be kind of subtle IMO. Maybe we could put together a couple of easily spotted items to aid a fella in scoring a good saw instead of a more mediocre one, especially when theyre covered in rust and errant paint?


----------



## ToddJB

Perfect. Thanks, Bob.


----------



## TerryDowning

Re-handled my NOS 14" back saw.

Mahogany, 1 coat of BLO for color, 3 coats of shellac, I used the template from Blackburn. I even decided to try my hand at some wheat carving.









Old handle on bottom (obviously) Note the difference in hang angle!! The new handle is much more comfortable/natural feeling to use and way easier to control. Now just a light grip and even motion gets the job done. Nice when a handle fits your hand.










Freshly filed with a new handle. Now it cuts easily and more accurately. As long the steel can be filed and made sharp, even a NOS/POS back saw can be made into a fine user. This will never be a valuable "collectible" but I'm very pleased with the end result.


----------



## Brit

Can't argue with that Terry. Nice job.


----------



## JayT

Nice job, Terry. It's a great feeling to turn a POS into a decent user.


----------



## summerfi

Terry, that's a fantastic job. Your wheat carving looks pro.

Stef said - Maybe we could put together a couple of easily spotted items to aid a fella in scoring a good saw instead of a more mediocre one, especially when theyre covered in rust and errant paint?

That's a great idea Stef. If you'll take the lead on a blog, I'll help. Or do you just want to do it here through the discussion? A blog might make it easier to refer to in the future.


----------



## bandit571

Been watching a series of videos by a GE Hong" Chinese Hand tool"

One of which he makes a Chinese style Frame Saw. Looks like a 1" wide blade. He also resharpens it..his way. Sets the teeth: one to the left, one to the right, and skip the third one, repeat and rinse. Looked like the torsion rod on the top was All-thread. Two "bolts" with slots and a hole to hold the blade. A nail through the hole to hold the blade. Then he just bends the nail over. Maybe an hour of videos to start to finish, with a demo of the saw's work at the end.

Now, IF you understand Mandarin…....


----------



## TerryDowning

Thanks for the compliments.

I wouldn't call the wheat carving pro by any stretch of the imagination. I should have practiced some before committing to it but alas I got impatient to use the saw.

I'll keep the old handles for practicing the wheat carving. Just not a skill set I really ever spent any time on.

It's not great but it does a spiff up an otherwise nondescript handle/saw. I'll probably give the rehandle on my 12" saw a similar treatment.


----------



## LeTurbo

Nice handle, Terry! Foolish me decided to just rub the blade of my everyday saw just … you know, to see ….










and then I had to rub a little more. Amazing! There's metal under there.










And now I've been rubbing the whole damn weekend. It looks a bit better than the shots above, but still a long way from the pristine examples I see here. Still, the thing has to a 9 - 5 job, so we can't get too kind to it. I think I'll make a new handle too sometime. It's nothing special as saws go - a Kenzo or Kinzo - but it's given me years of service (since about 1990) and still cuts a 0.5mm pencil line in half.

Brett!


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## bandit571

The strange part about the GE Hong Frame saw?

He has a few beat up old chisels. They each have a series of slots cut into them. He uses those slots to set the teeth with.

The saw cuts wood like it is hot butter, too.


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## chrisstef

Solid handle work Terry!

Bob - I might be bale to get something going as a blog. Id certainly need a bit of help as im still gathering the knowledge of what makes up a good saw myself.


----------



## summerfi

Great Stef. PM me when you have time and we can kick around some ideas.


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## Tim457

Bandit you've gotta figure out how to get us links. The last time the one link you pasted did work but it wasn't all the stuff you were describing. Go to the location window where the address shows, hit ctrl-A if it's not all highlighted already, and then ctrl-C. Then paste it in here. Sounds like good stuff.

Terry that's fantastic looking. Not much leap from that to getting your own steel and making the whole saw. I'd say that wheat carving is better than a lot of vintage saws I've seen.


----------



## bandit571

I think this is part one, of three






Try that one.


----------



## ToddJB

Try this one






Your T's and P's were off.

Then you can click on his videos he's got 150 posted.


----------



## ToddJB

And if you do it in Chrome, it will translate the titles for you.


----------



## bandit571

Don't have Chrome. Still can get what he is trying to do, though.

Fixed it, too…


----------



## DocBailey

*Bob* -

A "panel saw" is simply one which fits into the "panel" of a toolchest-that being the underside of the top.

btw - that "how to pick a saw" thing has been ably handled by Matt Cianci on his blog.
see here


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## summerfi

Here's a Richardson Brothers No. 7 rip saw fresh from the resto shop. This saw is essentially a clone of the Disston No. 7. I bought a lot of 3 saws just to get this one. The Supplee saw I posted previously was part of the lot.



















I like to assemble "families" of like-branded saws, and this saw goes nicely with the Richardson Brothers backsaw I recently completed.










Below is the final saw of the 3-saw lot. It is a Keen Kutter crosscut, and it will go on my sales list along with the Supplee.


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## summerfi

Doc - Yes, I remember Matt's article now. He's done a nice job, so there's probably no need to reinvent the wheel.


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## ErikF

Bob, those are beautiful.


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## Wally331

Damn that Richardson Bro's saw is sweet. I love the way you are able to bring out the color of these old totes, do you still just use BLO?

How do you like the keen kutter line of saws btw? I found the steel to be very fine and they were a joy to file. It cut great too, but I sold it before I got much of a chance to use it. Were they made by simmonds? They did a really nice job on the wheat carving on the one I had, and yours looks just as good. Almost looks like a harvey peace pattern handle though!


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## summerfi

Erik & Wally - Thanks!

No, I'm not a fan of BLO on saw handles, Wally. I prefer a satin wipe on poly, buffed with 0000 steel wool, and finished with paste wax. I think the KK is a fine saw. I honestly don't see much difference in it and the other brand name saws of the day. They all had good steel and good design. KK was made by E.C. Simmons in St. Louis. The handle on this one got a dark stain, which I kinda like on some saws.


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## Slyy

Terry, that handle turned out great. I can just imagine how the new hang feels in comparison to the old. Probably makes the saw feel like it actually wants to work for you!

Bob, the Richardson is gorgeous with that lambs tongue, hard to beat that purty of a saw!


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## Pezking7p

Finally fixed the set on my Jackson dovetail saw. It cuts easily enough. I'm not sure if the crooked cuts are due to my inexperienced hand or due to the saw. Need to strip the handle and completely refinish it, but I think winter is going to be tool refurb season.


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## Tim457

Cameras can do some funny things with warping images, but it appears each of those cuts curves slightly to the right as it goes down, Dan. That would seem to indicate there's still a bit of issue with the set. Now starting straight and going consistently is a matter of form and practice, but then again no one has mistaken me for a saw guru.


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## Pezking7p

A couple go straight, Tim, but only a few. If it pulls right, I need to hit that side of the saw with a stone really lightly?


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## jordanp

Erik that Gaboon ebony saw is really sweet but I still think you should send it to me for further testing ><


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## Brit

Great work Bob. That Richardson is a lovely saw.

Dan - Those cuts are not that far off. I don't think the problem is the saw.

Try this:

1. Mark a series of vertical lines (about 20) with your square, 1/8" apart.
2. Keep the same stance for the duration of the cut.
3. Use a relaxed grip and don't force the saw.
4. Use the full length of the saw.
5. Keep your elbow in.
6. As you saw, concentrate on your line just ahead of the cut.

I think you are almost there. You just need to work on your consistency, so you can rely on your cuts being accurate when it counts.


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## chrisstef

Bob - I need some of that magic dust youre using on those saws, they come out so friggin sweet im jealous.


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## summerfi

Here's the stuff, Steff. I order mine from Lee Valley. Who knew it would work on saws too.


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## BigRedKnothead

^Ha, Mike Mills "magic dust". I'd know that stuff anywhere. This is the most used cookbook in our kitchen.


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## BigRedKnothead

Now the unveiling…..
Before:








-
And after:









Blogged it here:
http://lumberjocks.com/BigRedKnothead/blog/40945


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## richardwootton

Red you ruined that saw! You should just send it to me so you don't have to look at it every day…


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## Brit

That's the luxury version right there Red.


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## BigRedKnothead

Yes, luxury version reserved for freckle-faced pimps.


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## WayneC

You should hang a pair of small fuzzy dice in the center of the frame.


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## WhoMe

Hmm, Red, I bet that voided the warranty. Not that a tool like that would fail due to craftsmanship..

I think you should make it look like this though


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## richardwootton

I need some input from the panel. I'm starting on the refurb of my Harvey Peace hand saw and I'm have a hard time getting the small brass plate off of the bottom of the handle. The tiny screw holding it in place is pretty rusted and I'm afraid I'll strip the head or something and not be able to get it off at all. I'd thought about using some penetrating oil to try lossening it up a bit, but I'm afraid that would get onto the handle and interfere when I apply a new finish. And ideas?


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## chrisstef

A brass guard Harvey Peace and no pics?

I might be inclined to leave it on and work around it but some of the "repair" screws ive had to take out recently have been tough to get out without a good bunch of torque.


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## Tim457

I'd probably be inclined to leave it too, but some painters tape carefully applied around the area with some plastic sheeting if needed would help keep the penetrating oil off the handle.


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## lateralus819

That cocobolo, from the image, matches the knobs quite nicely. I definitely agree with the removal of the red now. Nice job Red!


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## richardwootton

Stef, I'll post some damn pics. Hell, you'll see it in person cause your gonna be the one sharpening it when I get finished cleaning the plate up. Unfortunately there some pretty heavy pitting on the plate.


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## Pezking7p

Thanks for the input. I hoped it was my horrible saw skills and not my horrible saw filing skills that were to blame.

Red, I'm disappointed that you didn't turn that cocobolo handle in your drill press with a screw driver for a chisel.


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## BigRedKnothead

Lol Mike. Well done.

Dan- I did that with my new leg vise handle…..and it was no where near the caliber of Terry's work;-)


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## summerfi

Richard - having restored a Peace recently, I can say the screw holding the brass guard is quite short…1/2" or less (assuming it is original). If you can fit a small screwdriver bit in the slot, it should come out without too much torque. Mine was fairly loose. It was also quite rusty and needed to be replaced. It will make cleaning up the handle a lot easier if the guard is off.


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## ErikF

Some fine saw work and great insults going on around here.

I put together a short video of my fly press project for anyone that is interested. Not the best camera work in the world but it will do.


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## summerfi

Erik that's really slick. Thanks for sharing. Did you design the indexing mechanism yourself, and what is the range of tooth pitches it can accommodate?


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## ErikF

Bob- I used a design from "eccentric toolworks". He used a piece of sheet metal as the indexer, I milled mine out of a small piece of steel. The pitch range I have tried:15tpi-5tpi.


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## Buckethead

I picked this saw up in a batch deal from an antique store coming up on a year ago. I really wanted the combination squares, protractor, and brace, but the guy threw it in for a couple bucks more. It doesn't cut nearly as cleanly as my Veritas dovetail saw, nor my Japanese pull saws. That might be due to the need for sharpening. (I'm not proficient in the saw sharpening department) a couple teeth were out of alignment as well, seemingly from having been dropped.

I'm just wondering if this saw is worth investing any time on. The etching reads: The Simonds Saw Works… [etc…] No. 97


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## chrisstef

Very worthwhile Bucket. I just saw one in really nice shape go or like $120 on the bay. Looks like theres a little piece of the handle broke off up by the spine but as long as the handle don't wobble around on ya its a solid user.


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## DocBailey

Simonds made some of the best steel of any of the sawmakers of the golden age.

The history of the firm can be found in many places on the 'net, but the short version is this:
They jumped into the hand saw game around 1900, at a time when the big players were already established.
Their product won acclaim and awards.
Then suddenly, in 1926-believing that power saws were the future - they ceased handsaw manufacture.

And that is why you can safely say, of any Simonds handsaw that you encounter, that this saw is at least 88 years old.


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## theoldfart

Doc, I've got a Simonds mitre saw badged for GP. It is a substantial saw, feels good in the hand, and well balanced considering the size.


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## Buckethead

I definitely like the feel of this saw. It is rock solid. The tote has no wobble whatsoever. It feels like a stronger version of my Veritas, just doesn't cut cleanly. I know a guy…. ;-) I might just send it off for a someone with a bit of sharpening experience to handle..

Thanks for the responses!


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## Tim457

Erik that's awesome, I've been looking forward to seeing how your fly press worked out since you mentioned the idea. That has to be so much better than filing each tooth into a blank plate.

Buckethead that one looks great. Get it tuned up and it will work well too.


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## WhoMe

Red, best I could do.I was looking for flames but the psychedelic 70's look was a close second. :-]


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## fumehappy

I'll just leave this here…


















restoration undertaken: wiped with mineral spirites and 0000 steel wool, followed by one thin coat of pure tried and true BLO on the handle.


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## chrisstef

Whoa! A Kenyon? I dont know that ive seen a full sized handsaw made by them that i can recall. Very cool Fume, thanks for sharing that.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Lots of blade work to do with this one, but the handle drew me in. Shape resembles an Atkins, kind of, but medallion is WS. $5 at a 'craft mart,' it was hanging on an exterior brick wall. Had to save it.




























Love me some 20" panel saw action. Oh, and it's plenty dull…


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## summerfi

Fumehappy - nice Kenyon. Those don't come along every day. Where did you find it?

Smitty - that does look like an Atkins handle, and it's in great shape. Nice save.


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## chrisstef

That one deserves to be with you for 5 bones Smitty. Turn the heat on, she looks cold.


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## fumehappy

Summer, I picked it up at a local flea market. Front side is rough with some pitting backside is really nice.


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## chrisstef

Dang fume. Must have been right next to the unicorn hoof. A kenyon in the wild is amazing. Thats my favorite type of score.


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## fumehappy

Mine too. Hehe… I thought I had a picture of the obverse side of the handle. It's in really nice shape with beautiful graining. In my head when I picked it up I associated it with the Seaton chest but figured i must be mistaken and almost put it down. Best part? It was two tables down from the overpriced antique tool dealers table.


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## richardwootton

Well I finally finished doing a partially refurb on the D8 thumb hole I got from Stef, which he so graciously sharpened before he sent it off. There was a pretty good sized chip out of the top on the handle, which I reshaped. And while it doesn't really match the bottom of the handle, I was still fairly happy with it. I finished it with 4 coats of Formby's Tung Oil, and buffed it with 0000 steel wool between coats, then finished with paste wax. Be gentle on me guys, I know mine doesn't look anything like what you guys are putting out!
Before:


















After:


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## Brit

There's nothing wrong with that Richard. Nice job!


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## DonBroussard

I like it, Richard. The horns look fine. How long is the plate? It looks monstrous from the perspectives of the pictures. Were you able to find and save an etch? I'm still hunting for a thumbhole saw. Someday maybe . . .


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## chrisstef

She looks gorgeous surrounded by all the lumber and fluffy shavings! That saw found a good home with you buddy.


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## summerfi

I'll add my second to the nice job on the D-8 Richard.

This is the backsaw I put the new plate on. I can say the new plate went on WAY easier than the old one came off.

*Before*










*After*










It is a 16" Richard Groves & Sons tenon saw filed rip at 11 ppi.


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## Brit

Bob - You outdid yourself on that Groves & Sons. Good for at least another 100 years. 11ppi rip is a perfect choice for that saw. What is the depth of cut now?


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## richardwootton

Bob, that backsaw looks killer! Did I miss something or did you replace the plate?


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## summerfi

Thanks guys. Andy, it's 4" under spine. Richard, yes I put a new 0.025" plate on the saw.


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## richardwootton

Man, I'd love to have a tenon saw with 4" of cutting depth! Beautiful work brother…


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## bandit571

have a Disston Lightweight D-7 about ready to go. $5 saw, mind you. Starts nice, seems to be well set and sharp. Until it's in to a board a bit, then everything goes haywire. It pulls to the right, and then binds up.

Wonder if running my oil stone along the teeth on that side would help? And, should I just run with the teeth (down to the toe) or, against the teeth? Nice big saw otherwise, would make a nice crosscut saw.









Brass nuts on this side, but has a steel medallion









Etch might even come back. From about 1953 or so….


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## Slyy

Richard I'd say that turned out just fine! I feel I've made my disston fines look pretty good but I am über jealous of nice llooking plates. Mine have mostly all been so pitted that I've pulled little to no etches out of them.

Bob as always, your restore looks fabulous!!!! Looks like a pretty quarter sawn handle as well!


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## richardwootton

Neil, I thought about taking it down down further but I was afraid to lose what little is left of the etch. And Don, there is a little etch left, but it's really faint. I'll have to check and see what the length of the plate is but I'm thinking it's around 26", but that's just me shooting from the hip.


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## richardwootton

Bandit, I think I have the same saw, but I'd have to look at it again to make sure. Mine has a small bow in the plate so I doubt I'll end up restoring it because I don't know how to correct a plate that isn't true.


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## thedude50

Chris said this go
Flag

I think spotting a decent handsaw in the wild can be a little intimidating too. The differences can be kind of subtle IMO. Maybe we could put together a couple of easily spotted items to aid a fella in scoring a good saw instead of a more mediocre one, especially when theyre covered in rust and errant paint?

-"there aren't many hand tools as awe-inspiring as the #8 jointer. I mean, it just reeks of cast iron heft and hubris" - Smitty

this is a reprint from my site from Matt cianci

Rusty Gold: Selecting a vintage saw
Published on Friday, 30 November 2012 08:27 | Written by thedude | Edit

I get asked a lot of questions about old saws through the blog.　A common one　I hear a lot is, "How do I pick out a good vintage saw and avoid the garbage?" Some experts tell you to look for a particular make of saw, but I've got a better method that doesn't play favorites or require you　to even know who made a saw (which can be tricky for the novice).
How's that you say? Simple. The fact is that from about 1860 to 1940, there were hardly any poorly made saws in the US.　　Competition and high demand　in the 19th century and the perfecting of mass production in the 20th century made almost every saw made in America in this period a winner. You gotta love the good ole days.

So I've put together the following method　for identifying a quality saw that literally anyone can use. You don't need to know squat about saws. In fact, about all you need is at least one working eyeball and just a touch of common sense (my apologies to those deficient in this area). That said, we're going　to divide our evaluation of old saws into two parts. First, we're going to talk about QUALITY from a manufacturing stand point, and second we're going to look at the　CONDITION of the saw as you find it.　To find a good user saw, you're going to have to take both into account, and both have a specific set of criteria.
DISCLAIMER: Before the know-it-all armchair tool historians get fired up and throw the M-WTCA handbook at me, I would like to point out that these are not hard and fast rules. They are generalizations intended for the layman to increase the chances of him identifying a quality handsaw from a horse-manure one without any　further knowledge of saws.

QUALITY
1) Brass nuts: I'm talking about the hardware that affixes the saw plate (or blade) to the tote (or handle). If the nuts and bolts are made of brass, it's a mark of quality. Brass was the industry standard from the dawn of handsaw manufacturing until about the 1940s or so.　After that period, steel became the standard. Now there is absolutely nothing wrong with steel nuts (I love mine), but it can be an indicator of a saw made after the point of general decline in the quality of handsaws. It just so happens that by the 1950s, quality in saws started to take a nose dive and by that time, steel nuts were the standard.

[The often misrepresented nib]

The often misrepresented nib
2) Nib: The nib is a decorative bump filed into the steel plate of the saw along the spine towards the toe (the narrow working end). It is not used for starting a cut. It is not for securing a tooth guard. And it's definitely not for testing the temper of the saw during manufacturing. It's decorative. Tradition is a force not to be ignored in hand tool design, and tradition at the time said that all handsaws have a nib as decoration. Period. End of story. And if a saw has a nib, it means it was most likely made before the 1920s. Once again, nothing necessarily wrong with a saw that doesn't have a nib, but if it does, it means it was made by a tradition-conscious maker and you can bet your panther head that he was a good one. Further, it added a manufacturing step to the saw and that cost the maker money. Manufacturers didn't　cut into their profit margins unless they had good reason to: Quality!

[In 1874, this skewback style was ground breaking.]

In 1874, this skewback style was ground breaking.
3) Skewback: This refers to he shape of the back of the saw plate. In this case, the 'skew' means that from the area in front of the tote to the toe of the saw, instead of a straight line, the shape is curved, or concave. The skewback　was patented by Henry Disston　in 1874 and revolutionized the handsaw industry. It was intended to lighten the saw and bring its design into the modern age. Disston　took a great risk in deviating from the traditional form, but it paid off in spades. Like most of his innovations, it soon became the industry standard.　It's a mark of quality for the same reason as the nib: it　complicated the manufacturing process　and it is helpful in dating a saw. The skewback was the handsaw to sell and to own from the 1870s until the 1920s.　Again, this　was the golden age of saw making in America….you can't pick a bad one!
[The Lamb's Tongue]

The Lamb's Tongue
4) Lamb's tongue: The lamb's tongue is another decorative element on the tote that comes from a long tradition of esthetics. It's that curved design in front of the hand grip that licks the bottom of the handle web where the nuts affix the tote to the saw plate. Once again, this is a mark of quality because it adds a manufacturing step and cost more money. And yes, once more, as well, it helps to date the saw to the time of almost universal quality in hand saws…in this case, about any time before the 1920s.

[The Tote Shape]

The Tote Shape

5) Tote shape: This one is unique from the four criteria above because it is subjective, and because it requires you to　hold the saw in person.　I don't care how well made the saw is, how perfectly tempered and smithed the saw plate is or how much it cost, if the tote is not a proper and comfortable match for your sweaty paw, then it's nothing but a giant paint scraper. The tote should fit your hand like a glove. The top and bottom horns should snugly frame your　palm and the round overs of the grip should be broad and smooth. If your saw is not comfortable to use, then you're not going to use it.

"See how the top and bottom horns of the tote on this classic English rip saw just blend right into my hand? That's a perfect fitting tote."

CONDITION
Now that you know how to differentiate a quality saw from a Quasimodo saw it's time to evaluate its condition to ascertain if it can ever be usable again. To evaluate condition, we're going to separate a saw into its three essential elements: the saw plate, the tote, and the nuts.
The Saw Plate: The two defects of concern with the saw plate are pitting and kinks. You already know that rust eats steel, and for saws, it becomes especially detrimental if the rust has caused pitting in the saw plate. Heavy pitting along the toothline will prevent some of the teeth from taking a keen edge. The only remedy for this is grinding or filing away the teeth until pit-free steel returns to the toothline, but since pitting is often rampant, this is rarely a realistic solution. The good news is that short of pitting, even heavy rust can often be cleaned off to reveal healthy steel below. Get to know what pitting looks like and how to avoid it. If the pitting is localized and slight, don't sweat it…there's plenty of other teeth to make up the work
On the right you can see the heavy orange rust that covered every inch of this saw plate. But after a good cleaning (on the letf) I find perfectly clear steel underneath.
Kinks are another thing to be wary of on a handsaw. Kinks are stresses, dents, and bends in the saw plate that prevent it from being straight. Unless you want to saw like Picasso painted, try to avoid kinked saws. Kinks can be removed by a skilled saw smith, but unless you can find one, or can tackle it yourself, these saws are best passed over. Removing kinks isn't entirely too difficult, but it's a whole other learning curve.
This is what a kink looks like down the toothline. See that bend to the left at the tip of the saw? That will require smithing to remove, or this saw will never perform well in the kerf.

The Tote: We've talked about how the tote needs to be comfortable, but besides that, it also needs to be sound and intact, or at least repairable. Broken horns are not a deal breaker…you are a woodworker, after all, right? Repairing broken horns and cracks in the tote should be fairly easy for you, but you need to be willing to tackle them. Don't tell yourself that even with breaks or serious damage a tote is "usable"...you're lying to yourself and insulting the tool gods (yes…there are tool gods). Fix it, or don't buy it in the first place.
You may also find totes with dry rot, worm holes, sun damage, syphilis, or any other number of epidermal maladies. Use your judgment on these. I'd avoid worm holes and powder post beetle damage (beetles love old beech!)...you don't want to import a cadre of these nasty little buggers into your shop. Trust me. But don't sweat a beat up or worn and cracked finish on the tote. It's uncommon to find completely intact finishes on totes, and in my opinion, they're not necessary to begin with.
The Nuts: All the nuts should be present…both sides. If the nuts are the domed style and are missing a couple, that's not a deal breaker…they are easy to scavenge. But if they are split nuts (used on saws mostly before the 1870s) and some are missing, it can be a bear to find proper replacements. Plus, split nuts are delicate and removing them is rarely straight forward. You can replace missing split nuts with common domed nuts, but you'll become so tired of self-proclaimed saw experts lecturing you on how they aren't 'proper' that you'll want to kill them, yourself, or both

This saw may look like hell, but it passes every one of my quality tests: Nib? Check. Brass nuts? Check. Lamb's tongue? Check. It needs a heavy cleaning and repairs to the tote, but when I'm done, this 1880s Disston #7 will live up to its reputation. These were indeed the finest handsaws ever made.

By Matt Cianci

So that's about it. Now all that's left to do is go out, find a bucket of rust, and try out that common sense you just discovered.
Enjoy! 

visit this page for the photos


----------



## bandit571

Picked up two "project" saws. $2 each. Might take awhile on these two









The one with the missing part of the tote is a Disston & Sons and seems to be a rip. The other one?









A Star & Cresent on the Medallion, and something that looks like "Simonds & Sons"???? Cross cut teeth. It might wind up as a Panel length saw. Also, while out and about today, picked up a few saw files. Bundled into a group, for ….$.50

Will see in a few days or so, how these will turn out. IF I can get the brass stuff off….


----------



## summerfi

That's an early Simonds with the star and crescent.










The Disston handle looks like a D-8. Is it a skewback? A couple of nice old saws, and $2 each is a steal.


----------



## bandit571

Both are skew backs. Might be a fun project…


----------



## bandit571

Ok, upon further review:

Disston looks like a D-8? It IS a skew back. It WILL need a re-toothing, as the ones out near the toe are almost worn away. Think I can repair the tote. That was the "good news"

And now the bad: Plate on the simonds is floppy, no temper left. Has a big long bow to it's length, along with that chunk that is missing. The tote is…...not worth the effort to save. There is a screw holding things together. Big chunk out of it around the medallion.

Thinking about taking a chunk from the tote, and marrying it to the Disston's tote. The Brass hardware will go up for sale, IF anybody wants them. Not sure what to ask for them, either. Medallion cleaned up very nice, almost minty. Slots on the bolts are in very good shape. Plate is headed for the recycle tub….


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## bandit571

Ok, after looking up the Disston Medallion, it seems to match the ones from 1878-1888. The medallion sits almost flush with the surface of the tote, has no patent dates. There are very small "stars(?) on either side. No comma after "& sons. "


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## summerfi

That's a very early D-8 then Bandit. IIRC, Disston began making the D-8 in 1878. It was a new invention-the first skewback made. When you begin cleaning up the etch, you should find a D with an 8 inside. That was the old style. The newer style is "D-8".


----------



## racerglen

D-8's a pair 








The one on the right's been here since 2003, but untouched mostly 'till this week









It's a 6 TPI, what I can see of the etch says 1900-1910 ish ?









And the back side shows why it sat so long and will be wall art for some time yet. A previous owner apparently used a chisel to remove someones name/intiials from the top of the handle and the grip area, did some chisling of my own on the front side and sanding and a coat of BLO to at least make it presentable.
Of intrest to me is the difference in the handles, the blonder one is a much later D-8, Canadian made in Toronto, a 5 TPI, and you can see the shaping is much less refined and shallower. It's etch is quite clear.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Good stuff, glen. Those thumbhole d8s are monsters, indeed. Taking a chisel to a saw handle is some kind of wrong, though. Not your repair, but using it as an eraser. Ouch.

Remember this guy?



















Scraped with a razor blade, wet sanded at 400 grit w/ WD40, handle wiped down:










Not where I want it to be, but now at least it can live in the shop with dignity. No etch (rats) to be found…


----------



## planepassion

Racer, you could do a nice repair of the backside of your thumby's handle. Seems a shame to let it languish due to the missing chunk. I blogged about my repair of a Disston handle here. Might help you start noodling on how to approach it. Others on this thread have done some mighty fine repair work themselves.


----------



## bandit571

Ok, a little work on the saws this morning









First, just to see what was under all that rust, the Simond plate. About the right half of an etch was still there. Right where the sander stopped, there is a big kink in the plate. Toe curls up badly, too. Next up, the D8 plate got a thorough cleaning









It has a decent etch, just have to highlight it later. There are some "Dental Work" to be done done near the toe (seems to be a pattern?)









Not sure why them teeth are worn down so much, did thid farmer start the cuts here, and just use this much of the saw?

Handle time: Both totes are off, time to match some pieces together?









The D8 on the left. The chunk from the Simonds on the right. Had a LONG wood screw, rusted in place, holding the parts together. Both seem to be almost twins. Thinking of adding the one chunk to the other









Haven't decided on that old screw, yet.  As for the leftovers?









Reshape into a handle for a Keyhole saw?









Hmmmm?


----------



## bandit571

A little wood working (or is it wrecking)today









Cut off the part I need from the Simonds tote.









Clean up of the add-on part. The break on the grip was a little slanted, had to level it out









The Disston tote being leveled to match. wasn't as good a match as I would have liked, so









A wee bit of Walnut scrap as a filler. After the glue has cured out, I file it to match the handle. Right now









Glue applied, and everything clamped up. Then spent a bit of time polishing the Brass









We be getting there…


----------



## theoldfart

I picked up a couple of pieces of applewood today









They are 8-10" in diameter and 4' long. They were cut in the last month or so. My question is mill then dry? A friend has a wood miser so milling is not a big issue.

I hope I can get few good chunks for saw totes.


----------



## lateralus819

Are wheeler madden and Clemson saws good? Picked up a big rip saw, great shape quartersawn handle. $15.


----------



## lateralus819

Also scored a thumb hole for $10. In great shape.


----------



## summerfi

Lat - WMC saws are very good and highly desirable. They bring high prices on ebay. If yours is in decent shape $15 is a steal. Pictures? See this.


----------



## lateralus819

It's in good shape. Should I clean it? I'll get pics in a few.


----------



## summerfi

Kevin - nice find on the apple logs. If they were mine, I would have them sawn, then sticker and weight them and paint the ends with paraffin. That will help prevent warping and splitting. In fact, I'd paint paraffin on the ends right away, even before milling. I just milled some cherry that a guy cut last fall and didn't treat the ends, and already some of the cracks went 8" into the logs.


----------



## lateralus819

Bob here are some photos.


----------



## planepassion

TOF, yes, mill, then coat the ends in wax or acrylic paint to retard checking, then sticker the boards and air dry for two years. Mill them thicker than what you'll need because they'll shrink. But how much thicker I can't say. What say you LJs?

Milling by hand is a bear and I'll never do it again. So you are fortunate to have a friend that can set you up.

Bandit, that is some creative handle smithing there buddy.

Lateralus, can't wait to see pics of your new thumby. Congrats!


----------



## upchuck

Kevin and Kevin-
TOF-I agree with Summerfi. Seal the ends of those logs ASAP. I've used paraffin, paint, and watered down yellow glue with success. But timeliness is critical in my experience.
Lat-I love that handle on your saw. It's not a "thumbhole" but it has a thumb hold and that is different. I did a double take on the handle when I first looked at your photos. It's the first one like it I have seen. What's the tpi/ppi on that ripper?


----------



## theoldfart

How thick a cut a cut? 8/4?


----------



## chrisstef

That MWC is chub worthty lat. I had movement, wont lie.

Excellent score Kevin. I seen 1.5 bf of apple at my local woodhut snd they wanted 30 clams.


----------



## summerfi

Kevin - saw it 4/4 if you want to end up with 3/4" stock or more for thicker stock. For a saw handle 5/4 might be about right.

Lat - That's a Holden patent handle. WMC and some other makers used that style handle on some of their saws. The big notch at the top is for the thumb of the left hand (for a right handed sawyer) and works similar to a thumbhole handle. That's a very cool find. Is that a Warranted Superior medallion I see? The plate looks pretty good and should clean up with sanding.

Edit: Your saw appears to me the WMC No. 24. WMC used a few different designs of the Holden handle depending on how fancy the saw was. The Warranted Superior medallion was typically used on the No. 24.


----------



## lateralus819

Yes it's warranted superior.


----------



## lateralus819

Well, i started wet sanding the plate. 220 grit. A lot of work, still a ways to go. Had to give up and move onto the 1828373 planes im restoring LOL.

I was so stoked to see that saw though. It's a beauty.

I was looking at the Disston thumbhole, looks like she was rode hard. The plate is just below the handle, been sharpened a lot.


----------



## summerfi

The plate on the WMC saw is nice and wide. It's going to look sharp when it's restored.


----------



## lateralus819

Upchuck- The blade is stamped 8. I bought a thumbhole, that is not it.

Havn't taken pics of the Disston yet.


----------



## shampeon

TOF, my understanding is that apple checks and warps more than most woods, so getting the ends painted right away is more important.


----------



## 69BBNova

My First Real Tool Gloat!!!

I had an odd day today, for some reason I decided to take a look around for tools because I had nothing better to do…

Just a few posts down there was a listing for a bunch of old handsaws with no picture, about 50 of them for $125, but as usual I didn't have enough money buy I called anyway…

Sure enough a rubber barrel stuffed with them, and some extra handles also…

Told him I'd buy some but have to come back because he only had a limited amount of time I I had only a limited amount of money and he said I'd be better off buying them all and he asked how much I had to which I said $80 which is true, my pockets are empty right nw…

He told me he'd take the 80 and let me oue him the rest and I said are you sure you want to do that and he said it was Ok with him the great part is he has other tools that he has to dig out, so i'll stay in touch with him, because you never know..

The really funny thing is yesterday I had about decided I was done looking for vintage tools and was going to start buying new, then this happens…

I guess plans can change all of a sudden, who knew…

I'll add mor pics later on.


----------



## summerfi

Nice haul Nova. Looking forward to seeing what's in that barrel.


----------



## LeTurbo

Crazy stuff, Nova! These things happen when we least expect them to. I hope you've found some nice surprises in there.


----------



## DonBroussard

Congrats on the nice haul. I hope you have some real beauties in there. Even if you don't, you have enough saw plates to keep you in hand scrapers for life? And enough totes to part out to your LJ buddies!


----------



## chrisstef

Thats the haul of the century Nova. Id have to put on a pot of coffee, crank up the tunes, and have myself a lil rust porn session in the shop.


----------



## bandit571

Disston Tote is now out of the clamps, and had a first sanding









and a chisel, a block plane, and a few rasps









and a few narrow strips of a snading belt. Brass is there so they don't run off and get lost….









Now, what to do about that old screw hole…..


----------



## 69BBNova

Here are a few pics…

D-8 decent etch and handle, brass hardware, Disston USA Medallion. Late 30's early 40's? Can't remember.

Looks like Lyon & xxxx, Extra Spring Steel, waisted blade looks like Disston WS eagle medallion, New London, Conn. Brass strip bottom of handle. I can't remember if I ever read about these.

Just added pics..

No. 7 Philada medallion.

I should add the steel is quite good on many of these saws…

Also pulled out a 50s? or so D-7 with a good etch.


----------



## Brit

Wow Nova. That gives a whole new meaning to a bucket o' rust. You're gonna have to stand back a long way to get all those saws in the photo once you've laid them all out.


----------



## chrisstef

Being a CT guy id love to hear more on the New London saw Nova. Thats an older town on the coast here. Lots of shipping comes into that place.


----------



## summerfi

Well Nova, the Disston No. 7 paid for the lot and the rest is just gravy. I'm guessing the saw with the reinforcing plate under the handle is a Harvey Peace pattern saw sold by Disston after Disston bought Peace out. It was probably made for a hardware store in CT named Lyon & something. See this near the bottom of the page for more info.


----------



## Airframer

Nova - Nice score! What is that you have over the etches? Is that bluing? If so could you expand on the process for bringing out the etches with gun bluing?


----------



## Slyy

Good lord nova, that definitley counts as an epic score!! Looking forward to seeing what all else is in there!


----------



## donwilwol

Now you're going to have to find a wheel barrow of saw files Bill.


----------



## JayT

Nova, nice haul. Can't wait to see what else in in that lot, 'cause the first couple you show definitely take care of the price.

Eric, you might check this post from my blog about using gun glue for etches and see if it helps.


----------



## 69BBNova

Thanks for the info summerfi…
Your right its a Disston made Harvey Peace pattern saw… thank you…

One of the pics below that saw looked a bit like part of an etch I noticed on another one of these saws,
its one of the Handy Man Saws from 30s or 40s I guess…

Airframer…I hand sand with solvent and 220 wd paper checking and wiping often then a couple wipes with acetone, then brush on machinists dye let it dry while I look at the walls and ceiling then very lightly use 400 wd paper dry to slowly thin out the Dykem to remove most of it. I usually use finer paper but I don't have any left

Don, I buy every small triangle file I come across after running my fingernail over them. Bought about 2 or so dozen usa made nickleson, black diamond, arcade, some others I cant remember.

24in No. 7 Disston & Sons philada medallion no readable etch
24in No.7 Disston phila medallion full etch.
Later D-23 lightweight some etch steel medallion

4 other saws with etchs that look complete will need a bit of cleaning…

and a lot of cleaning to see etch if any on the rest.

After I get more batterys I'll post more pics.


----------



## WhoMe

Here is an Atkins saw that has seen better days. Looks like it has had only a few sharpenings...


----------



## JayT

A couple pickups from the weekend

A 14in Keen Kutter that someone was a bit too enthusiastic about trying to make look good. It will still make a good user.










There's a pretty good etch under there, too.










And a Stanley 150 miter box with a Disston saw










$35 total investment, so I can't complain.
.
.
.
.

Also, did my first saw re-plate today. Easy peasy. More info in this blog post.


----------



## Mosquito

Nice Jay. I like the Keen Kutter saw. Been resisting the temptation to start buying Keen Kutter saws to go with my Keen Kutter planes lol

Need to retooth my 8" Disston… old teeth already gone, just need new ones. Too chicken yet lol


----------



## JayT

I know that feeling, Mos. Ideally, I will re-tooth the Keen Kutter, because both it and the Disston are filed 13ppi crosscut. I also have a Veritas with the same tooth pattern, so that goes past redundant. I'm thinking about turning the KK into a tenon saw and going 11ppi rip. Once I work up the nerve.


----------



## Brit

You two are more than capable. Just do it already. )


----------



## Sillen

Dunno - I don't have a look for a couple of weeks and you blokes go crazy buying stuff and making stuff - had to wade through over 300 posts just to catch up 

Anyway …

Bob
love that Smiths Key reproduction you did - particularly like the London Pattern handle

Erik
That zebrano handle is something else, magic. The ebony looks brilliant as well

Nova
A bucketfull of saws - drool

Andy
Pleased to hear the shoulder is coming along

A little wile ago I posted a Frances Wood & Sons backsaw
Well I've finally got it re-assembled
I had to play with the saw nut sizes because of someone's wrecktafication in a past life.
I then had to wait for a 9/16 forstner to arrive from the US of A as I couldn't find any locally, Crazy I know
Used some saw nuts from a (surplus to requirements) Disston in the reassembly
I friend retoothed it on his machine, 12 ppi
Now all it needs is a sharpen. But first I need to acquire a saw vice (actually will build one) and a handful of decent saw files.

anyway enough rambling here are the piccies










and how it was


----------



## thedude50

NICE WORK jay t i HAVE A FEW ILL SEND OVER TO YOU TO CLEAN UP FOR ME


----------



## TheFridge

Was there a particular period where Disston used an aluminum medallion and fasteners?


----------



## summerfi

Jay - Your backsaw looks great. Nice job.

Nick - Your Wood & Son looks terrific too. Love the handle.

Fridge - Yes, but I can't give you exact dates or models. Probably after 1955 when H K Porter bought out Disston.


----------



## TerryDowning

Yep fifties on the aluminum medallion. the higher end ones were chrome plated.

I have 2 D-12s one rip, one X-Cut both very sharp and great cutters, still great saws after I cleaned them up.

Before
Rip is the darker handle, on top









After
Rip on the left









Handles after









Etch on the x cut very faint and probably won't show here. Maybe I'll blue it one day.










after adjusting the photo


----------



## chrisstef

Nice Terry. The steel on those D12's are killer. Had you noticed and stamps underneath the handles?


----------



## TerryDowning

Yup the tooth count is stamped on each

Rip is 5
X-Cut is 8 (if I recall correctly)

These are big saws for big work. I have ripped 12/4 with the rip saw it was work, but it got the job done handily.

I don't use the X-Cut as much as I have smaller x cut handsaws (22" range) for most of the x-cut work I do.


----------



## bandit571

progress report on the Disston D8 rebuild. Have the tote repaired, and sanded smooth. Plate needed a slight retuning to make the holes line up better. Plate is rust free, and the brass shines like new.









The non showy side. Not too bad a skew back?









Show side. Still can see some of the repaired areas. A close up of the tote, anyone?









There are some left over parts sitting in the shop. What I am doing with them? Stay tuned to this Bat Channel…..


----------



## planepassion

Terry, I think that what Christef is referring to is any stampings near the upper spine underneath the handle. Mine for example, has an "X".


----------



## bandit571

Hmmm, have so leftovers, what to do, what to do?

Teaser









Work in Progress…..


----------



## chrisstef

Brads got it Terry. Im kind of intrigued about markings buried underneath the handle since i found a JO on a 7 ive been working. 12's will sometimes (?) have the X he spoke about and im a little curious what might be hidden under your handle.


----------



## thedude50

Nice job on the tote repair bandit I would have just made a new one but you did a good job on the mend


----------



## 69BBNova

Some redo pics and a few new, that I uncovered. May be a bunch more, just don't know yet…
































































Threw in a new pic for kicks, I already replaced the other one…
I'm sure many here has seen one…


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Nova, very cool! Might that bluing reveal an etch that otherwise is not be visible at all?


----------



## 69BBNova

Hey Smitty…

Sometimes you get a idea of what it was if your lucky, but usually when their gone their gone…

Without doing it you just never know, that's why I always check.


----------



## bandit571

Hmm, need some of that "Blue" for a couple etchs I have









There is still a faint etch on this one. 1880s D8 Also have a 50s era D-7 Lightweight saw with a faint etch.

Now where does one get a small bottle of that blue stuff???


----------



## 69BBNova

Bandit…

One day I was wandering around Fastenal and saw it. Also bought 4 different thickness rolls of steel shim stock because saw that too.


----------



## TerryDowning

I understand what you're saying regarding the stamping under the handle. I'll have to pull the handles to look.

Lookin' good bandito.

Turns out the X-Cut is stamped 9 TPI

I had the opportunity to use it this morning on some 8/4 Maple.










Like buttah!!


----------



## richardwootton

Terry I still love that saw bench!


----------



## TerryDowning

I do too.

Just so damn useful. One of these days I'll make another. 2 would be even more better.


----------



## Mosquito

as do I… toDoList +1


----------



## AnthonyReed

+2 Yep, that is an awesome saw bench.


----------



## TerryDowning

Bonus on the saw bench if you adjust the height to the bend of your knee for proper holding of stock it winds up being the perfect height for sitting on as well.

Just an added bonus.


----------



## planepassion

Yep, Terry's saw bench is on my list of things to build. I love the design because it seems like it is tailor-made for rip cuts. No worrying about slanted legs, or notches to cut into. My current one is getting pretty worn…so, it may be time to build a new one.


----------



## richardwootton

Alright guys, I've got a quick question for the panel. Some of you may remember the Harvey Peace that I posted a while back, and I'm finally getting around to refurb this big boy. What I'm curious about is what to do about a chip on the bottom horn of the tote. I thought about doing some file work and just call it a day, but I'm thinking it might screw with the whole look of the tote. What do you guys think?
A couple quick pics.


----------



## donwilwol

Add a piece.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Must make it whole again…


----------



## summerfi

Definitely graft a piece on each horn. The saw deserves it.


----------



## richardwootton

Damn, I was afraid y'all were going to say that! Luckily I've got a Disston light weight from the 50s or 60s with a bent plate that is donating a part of the horn for the greater good.


----------



## LeTurbo

A whole Disston handle just for a light bit of the horn, Richard? Surely that just takes a scrap of wood and a half-hour with a rasp? It's only a tiny smidgeon that's gone. Brett


----------



## richardwootton

Brett, I guess it does sound a little extreme, my only dilemma is finding some scrap that will come close to matching the beech(?) of the Harvey Peace handle.


----------



## summerfi

I bought this Thomas Flinn (Sheffield) brass back on ebay awhile ago. I made a new plate, a new handle, and new screws, and now I have a new saw. It's my first brass back and I'm pleased with how it turned out. The plate is 12" x 0.020" x 3.5" under spine, filed 13 ppi crosscut. The handle is American walnut that has been aged for over 50 years. It has just a hint of figure. The handle pattern is one I copied from Blackburn and modified a little.


----------



## lateralus819

Wow Bob that is gorgeous. Do you tooth the blades yourself?


----------



## summerfi

This is a British saw made by Robert Sorby that I picked up locally. It was in rough shape, but I got it fairly cheap, which made it worth restoring. It has a fair amount of pitting, but I think it will still make someone a decent user panel saw. It is filed crosscut at 10 ppi. This one will probably go on ebay.


----------



## summerfi

Thanks Kevin. Yes, I buy the blank spring steel, cut it to size, and then cut the teeth by hand.


----------



## lateralus819

What is the process for hand cutting the teeth? Been curious to make my own saw.


----------



## summerfi

You use a template to get the correct spacing, and then just begin filing notches at each mark on the template. The notches get deeper until they turn into teeth. That's about all there is to it.


----------



## DocBailey

Exceptional work on that lamb's tongue Bob


----------



## summerfi

Thanks Doc.


----------



## Mosquito

Very nice work Bob. Why not just buy a brass back, and make your own saw in its entirety, only thing you're missing! lol

I ordered a saw plate toothed from TGIAG, and it shipped this week. Hopefully I'll have it next week, as I've been looking forward to it since I ordered it 2 weeks ago 

I really need to try hand filing my own saw teeth soon…


----------



## GMatheson

Bob, that Sorby saw would probably look pretty good in my till along with his brothers.


----------



## Brit

*WOW Bob!* - I hope mine turn out that good when I get around to doing them. I like the mods you made to Isaac's pattern and I enjoyed playing spot the difference. Tell me if I missed anything.

1. You elected not to file a lamb's tongue leading into the hook and instead filed a nice chamfer stop.
2. You went for a rounded nib instead of a pointed one.
3. The internal curve on the hook is a more symmetrical shape than the way Isaac does it.
4. You elongated the bottom horn a bit.

Anything else?

I think the fact that you kept the Thomas Flinn brass back gives your saw a lot of character and a respectful nob to the past, but then I've always been a sucker for a nice folded back.


----------



## Sillen

Bob
That is a very pretty little handsaw


----------



## summerfi

Thanks gents.

Greg - I agree. Want to give him a new home there with his kin?

Andy - You have a good eye, brother. In addition, the screws are positioned a little differently, and the bottom of the lamb's tongue/clip is beveled. I prefer a folded back too, for appearance and tradition's sake. When I get around to making my set of saws I'm going to try to learn how to make folded backs. I'm not aware of anyone who sells them.


----------



## lateralus819

Bob, fashion yourself a break, that way you can fold em yourself.


----------



## summerfi

I'm working on that Kevin. ;-) You also have to anneal the brass; otherwise it cracks when you bend it.


----------



## Mosquito

doesn't look like they have 'em for sale yet, but TGIAG say they're working on it
http://www.tgiag.com/sawbacks.html


----------



## bandit571

work in Progress









Tote is still "under Construction"

Spline came from an old junker ( aka BENT PLATE) saw. As did the bolts. Plate is the good part of the Simonds parts saw. The rest is bent, chipped out, and too rusty to fiddle with. other than some card scraper stock.

Will try the saw out and see where i go from there









You wouldn't think it would be so hard to drill two holes…..


----------



## summerfi

Here's the ticket for drilling holes in saw plate. 3/32" solid carbide spade bit for around $12. Just used mine for the first time yesterday, and the difference is like night and day.


----------



## racerglen

Bob, I've used the carbide tipped masonary bits with a wee bit of re grinding to increase the angle of attack, lube and go ! works very well.
(n' cheaper ;-)


----------



## BTimmons

I figured I'd ask here since I don't feel it warrants its own thread.

I'm looking to up my dovetail (and other detail sawing) game and I'll have some birthday money at the end of the month to do it with. I tried the LN Tapered Dovetail saw at an event they sponsored in Dallas recently, and I was absolutely blown away with how it performs. I had no idea a saw could be that precise and user friendly. Has anyone else used one perchance, that has also tried the comparable offerings from Veritas?

I can spend well over one Benjamin and only have one saw, or I could invest about the same amount for a rip and a crosscut. I know the LN is a sweet saw, but I can't help but wonder if I should be more of a penny pincher.

What you do fellas think?


----------



## JayT

Brian, I don't have the Veritas dovetail saw, but do have their similar crosscut carcass saw.

My feeling on it is ….... meh. Don't get me wrong, it's a decent saw, but I'll pick up one of my vintage ones over it any day-they just feel and cut better.

Now I've never used the LN, either, so cannot comment on their offerings. I just know I'm not blown away by the Veritas.

Have you thought about contacting Chris, i.e. Wally331 about making a saw to your specifications? You'd be supporting a young fellow LJ and I know that others are impressed with his work.

A few more of his creations here


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Brian, I've owned both Veritas and LN, so I'll try to help. Here's some thoughts:

- The only beef I've had with the LN tapered dovetail saw was the handle being a bit small for my hand, which coincidentally I modified today. Other than that, I friggin love that saw. I've nearly bought another dovetail saw (LJ Erik), but I don't see myself putting down the LN. 
- Does the modern design/look of the veritas bother you? How about the composite spine? If not, there's wrong with those veritas saws. They are an excellent value. If you just want the value, they're hard to argue. 
- Of course the LN DT saw is filed rip, and I will tell you that it terrible at crosscuting. Very hard to start that way. If you go that way, eventually you'll want a crosscut. The LN tapered crosscut goes nicely with it
- Sharpening? You can throw me into the group of folk who like that LN will resharpen your saw just the way it came for $20. Veritas doesn't offer sharpening service.

That's all off the top of my head. Shoot me any more questions you might have.


----------



## summerfi

+1 what Jay said. For most efficient use of funds, I'd personally go with either a Wally saw or a nice, properly sharpened vintage saw.

Glen - I've heard the masonry bits also work well. Can you get them as small as 3/32"?


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Oh ya, finally took some off the horns of my LN saw handles. They fit my hand much better now. I didn't bother with gun oil like LN said they use. After some fiddling I found that minwax fruitwood stain followed by amber shellac matched very well.


----------



## chrisstef

Ive got the Veritas carcass saws as well. They perform good but, like JayT, i reach for my vintage saws first. Ive never handled any saws from LN so i cant really comment on it.


----------



## summerfi

Nice color match on the saw handle Red.

I love finding a bargain. I've wanted a Stanley 42X saw set for awhile, but was unwilling to pay the high prices they bring. I've seen them go for over $100 on ebay in excellent condition. I figured if I was patient I would eventually find one at a more realistic price. A few days ago one popped up on ebay for a BIN price of $12.99, so I jumped on it. I'm sure the seller didn't know the value of what she was selling.

In the pictures it looked rusty, but when I got it in hand I could see that it only had overspray from a reddish brown paint. A toothbrush size wire brush took that off easily. It still has about 95% of the Japanning or paint or whatever it is. The words Ag Shop NVCS are scratched on one side. Since the seller is in Candor, NY, I believe this stands for Newark Valley Central School District. It's always nice to know something about the history of a tool.


----------



## Brit

Just think, one day people will brag about finding a vintage Wally.


----------



## chrisstef

Nice Bob!

Finished cleaning what i believe to be a P47 Harvey Peace 20" panel saw.





































This awaits me unfortunately


----------



## Brit

Nice restore Stef. That looks like a retoothing job to me.


----------



## chrisstef

Indeed Andy. Itll be my first. Retooth virgin here. Its a shame too because about 15" of the plate is mint but i think someone attempted to sharpen the saw the wrong way, starting at the toe, with a rock. The first 5" is an utter mess. Some of the worst ive seen.


----------



## summerfi

Stef - It's times like this that a Foley retoother would be a sweet thing to have.


----------



## summerfi

Think this one can be saved? It's on ebay, and it could be yours!


----------



## DanKrager

Now Bob, that's just cute. Don't need a cute saw, I need a cut(ting) saw!
DanK


----------



## theoldfart

Bob, I think that one 'll fit 'lil Red!


----------



## Brit

Dan - That's clever, but I don't need a clever, I need a cut(ting) saw. No wait, that ain't right.

I love saws like that. It makes me smile to think of the person who held it in their hands thinking "How the hell can I get another couple more years use out of this."


----------



## racerglen

Bob, had to check what masonary bits I have, smallest here is a 3/8" but there may be smaller available ?


----------



## planepassion

chrisstef, if it's any consolation, what awaits you with your P47 after your sharpening is a superb tool. I picked one up at an estate sale, rehabbed it, and converted it to rip and it's now now my go to rip saw for small boards. Interestingly, one of its teeth was broken off. The steel is amazing and it cuts better than any other rip saw I've every used. So I'm sold on Harvey Peace saws. So much so that I pulled another one off my to-rehab wall to make user-ready for placement in my Dutch tool chest.

Sumerfi/Andy, I'm thinking that that saw still has another decade of dedicated use in it. There are all manner of tasks I see for it. For example, when the wick portion of our large candles gets too deep, I could use it to cross-cut the cavity off. And when my lady wants only 1/2 lb of deer meet from the 1 lb casings in the freezer, I could use it to XC the frozen meat in half. I've been using a junker 21st century saw from the big-box store for these duties, but I'd feel better going vintage


----------



## planepassion

summerfi, congrats on the 42X. May your setting be true.


----------



## theoldfart

Brad, I have a split nut meat saw that just may satisfy your need for vintage. I'm in FL right now but I'll post a pic when I get home if your interested.


----------



## chrisstef

I dig it Brad. I had been scouting Peace saws for a while when this one flew under the radar on the bay. The pictures didnt show much but for what i paid for it i was willing to gamble. Aside from the hacked up teeth its in great condition. No chipping of the horns, very minimal pitting and little staining. Well worth the $32. Ill be looking forward to getting it up and running.


----------



## racerglen

Bob, I had a hardware store run this morning, thought I'd take a look at the masonary bits they had, smallest was an 8th not to say somebody else might not have the 3/32, another option might be the carbide tipped bits sold for drilling glass, I think they go smaller ?


----------



## summerfi

Glen, I mis-spoke earlier and should have said 5/32. That's the perfect size for a 8-32 saw screw. A more common size would be 3/16. That might work OK but would be a tad oversize. Anyway, the carbide bit I have now works well, but when I need to look for a replacement I'll consider the other options you mentioned. Thanks for scouting this out.


----------



## racerglen

Hey no problemo, that's what those trips to the hardware store are for, buy $ you might need, and check out what is there.. got two solar lights to replace the dead ones and a tube of spackle..and chatted up the young lassies who drew the short straw for early Saturday ;-)
And nuff of replacing the batteries in the solar thingies, a whole new unit's half the price of a battery !


----------



## bandit571

Bob: Masonary bits don't work all that great. DAMHIKT

They do come THAT small, though. Go to the section in BORG that sells Tapcons. They will be there.

Ok, from the toe of that Disston D8 to about 5" in, someone had worn the teeth WAY down. Thinking I could jointer that area enough to add a bit of "breating" to the saw?









The saw on the bottom. The upper saw is trashed.









After a clean up. Was "J.D." ( Hogg??) tyring to cut a concrete porch?


----------



## racerglen

Bandit, my drilling has showed the masonary bits don't work that well out of the shrink wrap, but if you hit them with the grinder, or even your upside down belt sander, and put a steeper angle on them, like a standard metal bit, and lube well, they do a great job. Like I said to Bob 1st thing, done it, sure beats tring the other tricks I've seen like using a nail in the drill press to heat the spot to remove the temper in the immedieate area then drilling and on and on. Works for me. Their initial angle is just too shalow ?

Nice kirf in that top saw ;-) the bottom one looks like the owner was trying to joint the teeth for you ?


----------



## Wally331

http://www.blackburntools.com/new-tools/new-saws-and-related/carbide-spade-drill/index.html

This is where I buy my drill bits for drilling, personally I find that its a very tight fit with 8-32 brass rod and it drills through no problem. I have gotten through with a sharp twist bit, though you basically have to resharpen after every hole. If it's even remotely dull it will work harden the steel and then your really screwed. I wish I just had a big press to punch the holes perfectly accurately  I'm sure most of those big old disston machines got scrapped, but maybe one will turn up somewhere…

Saw resto looks good Stef, that's too bad about the first few inches, get ready to buy some files… and most likely rant about the poor quality of them. I bet you could use that saw to finish your workbench though!

Andy your 42x looks to be in great shape. Everyone is always praising them but what makes them so much more desirable than the 42w?

I had a sort of epiphany the other day while shaping a saw handle. I took a look at the makers mark on the file I was using. Interestingly enough it happened to be a disston. It's pretty cool to be able to take a half round file, made by most likely the greatest saw manufacturer of the golden age, 60+ years later, and use it again to make saws. I just figured old henry would be proud to see his tools being used in this way after so many years.


----------



## richardwootton

That's a pretty cool thought there Wally. It's like the circle of life, er…saws?


----------



## chrisstef

Good karma wally. Cram a couple of 4 leaf clovers in your undies and youll be certain to stumble on a "one son" saw with virgin teeth at your next tag sale.


----------



## DocBailey

*Wally*

The 42X has a dual action plunger which the other 42 variations lack
It clamps the blade before the hammer bends the tooth against the anvil. The others can slide up as you set the tooth


----------



## upchuck

Thanks

Doc and others-
Last weekend I purchased a 42X with parts missing. I knew in advance that it was less than perfect but thought that I had the parts to fit it off of another saw set. I now believe that I was wrong. I now have two less than perfect/working #42's.

Can anyone direct me to an illustration of the parts for a working #42? An exploded view would be best.


----------



## summerfi

Chuck - I don't have an exploded view, but here is a source for replacement springs if you need those. There's also a picture of the internal parts.


----------



## DocBailey

*Chuck*








have a look here


----------



## upchuck

Doc and Bob-
Thanks for your efforts. The #42X I bought last weekend seems to function perfectly with all the springs and do-dads that are shown in the WK article and the 2nd Chance sales info. I have noticed the dual action of the grabbing the plate then setting the tooth. 
My missing piece(s) is at the very front of the set. If we call the parts that are shown in Doc's photo the springs and plungers then I'm missing the anvil and slider and…?
My donor set is a no name unmarked 42 "style" set with a casting break at the hinge between the two hand grips. These front anvil pieces don't fit with the #42X.
I have a couple of other functioning sets (#43, a couple of Taintor, and an Eclipse style) so I'm all ready to screw up saw sharpening and setting as soon as I get up the courage/nerve/ambition. 
Today I spent $2.00 for a 1950's Disston 8 ppi xcut to practice on.
Thanks again.


----------



## bandit571

See IF I can find it









Currently sitting in the Dungeon Shop. Think it MIGHT work on a Disston D8, from the 1880s???


----------



## BTimmons

Thanks for the feedback on my earlier question, folks.


----------



## Mosquito

my saw plate should be waiting for me when I get home… I'm excited


----------



## TheFridge

My dinner plate better be waiting on me when I get home.

If the old lady knows what's good for her.


----------



## DanielS

Wow


----------



## DanielS

Wow


----------



## DanielS

Wow


----------



## ErikF

Haha..nice one, Fridge.


----------



## August

any body here here have experience with BadAxTool saw's?
im the market to purchase 2 saw
tenon and cross cut any advice?
thanks


----------



## ErikF

Is anybody interested in this? I put this saw together a while back but botched the tote so it's been sitting on the wall collecting dust. It's straight and comes with the split nut hardware in the picture. It is 17" long 5 3/4" depth under the back, filed 11TPI x-cut, and has a .032" plate. There are already some holes drilled through the plate…may be a good or bad thing to you. I just want to get my materials out of it which puts it at $32.00 plus shipping. If you want it send me a message.


----------



## richardwootton

Has anyone done a blog on making a saw handle?


----------



## richardwootton

Guess I didn't look too hard, I just found Maur's blog.


----------



## summerfi

Richard - to my knowledge no one on LJ has done a blog on the topic, but here is a tutorial on handle making on another site. I, and I'm sure others on here who have made handles would be happy to answer any questions you may have.


----------



## richardwootton

Has anyone tried building a Roubo style frame saw for resawing? I saw that Isaac at Blackburn sells the blade for one, and it seems like an interesting project to try.


----------



## 69BBNova

Couple of more etches I cleaned up couple days ago…

D-12 Lightweight--steel hardware, this came from a batch of freebies 8 months ago. I didn't realize it was a Lightweight and thought it was used up, maybe a 1/2" gone from sharpening…

Air Master--brass hardware, judging by the handle a later one


----------



## Mosquito

Got a start on my saw yesterday


----------



## ToddJB

You cut the plate and filed all those teeth? That looks like more than just a start to me. Good job, Mos.


----------



## chrisstef

Nova - what kind of blueing are you using? When I tried using Perma Blue on a coupel of saws I never got that kind of color, or results for that matter.


----------



## Brit

Richard - It is on my bucket list, but a long way down. Shannon Rodgers built one and blogged about it. You can see the relevant posts here: http://www.renaissancewoodworker.com/?s=resawing


----------



## Brit

Probably Stuart's Stef. Comes in a tube as well.


----------



## JayT

Richard, another Roubo frame saw build was done by Tom Fidgen (The Unplugged Workshop) and blogged with accompanying videos.


----------



## richardwootton

Thanks JayT, I'll check that out.

Brit, that Stuart's can looks like a jar of pomade. I'd sure hate to get those two mixed up!


----------



## Mosquito

Todd, I didn't file the teeth, I bought it from tgiag, and they give you a rectangular piece of spring steel with the teeth punched. I just cut the plate to shape. I've got some good video going through it, so that should be posted sometime in the near future I hope


----------



## planepassion

I don't know what is more frightening. Richardwootton potential to mistakenly use engineer's marking instead of pomade, or you knowing what pomade is


----------



## chrisstef

Ill say it … im a hair product guy. Pat Riley aint got $hit on me.


----------



## summerfi

Judging by some of the weirdo's I've seen running around, I think some of them have gotten the two mixed up.


----------



## richardwootton

Ain't no shame in my game! I'm with you Stef.

I just got my new dovetail saw in the mail today. Big ups for the ErikF original. Got to take a few test cuts on my lunch break and that thing cuts like butta! He did an outstanding job on that little saw. I'll try and post sone pictures this evening.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

August- I don't have Bad Axe saw, but I know of several people who have them, and I haven't heard one complaint.

I picked up that little saw kit from ErikF. Look's like Red's gonna have to learn how to make a saw handle.


----------



## richardwootton

Mos, I'm trying to figure out why you're making your beautiful bench jealous by using that Work Mate!


----------



## Mosquito

*Richard* it's because I don't mind getting metal dust/debris all over the workmate, or the random accidental slip that gouges the workmate.

That and the workbench is inside and was more effort than it's worth to drag out to the garage for this lol


----------



## Mosquito

Got the plate sharpened up, and made a successful test cut…

Front









Back


----------



## Sillen

I've a Bad Axe 16" filed hybrid (picked it up as a second or battlescarred)

It is a great saw and I use it often. Te
he handle seems to fit my paw nicely

bumped it off the bench the other day and damaged the horns [email protected]#&*^


----------



## richardwootton

Mos, it looks like things are coming along well!

Nick, I think I'd be sick if I knocked a bad axe saw off the bench. Sorry to hear that man.


----------



## August

thanks red i was watching a video on youtube and men those saw looks big thats all i can say for now .
was thinking about it but i end up buying from you now who lol


----------



## AnthonyReed

Very nice Mos. You made quick work of that.

I am a hair product guy too Stef.


----------



## Mosquito

Thanks. I'm hoping to get the tote roughed out tonight. Get the blank cut out, and maybe add the kerf to it. Will probably leave shaping to this weekend or next week. Hoping to keep it movin' fairly quickly.

Little sad, had a nice piece of quilted maple, but it's just not quite wide enough to get the grain in the correct orientation, so ribbon quarter saw Sapele it is, I think.


----------



## JayT

Nice clean cut, Mos. Can't wait to see the finished product.


----------



## AnthonyReed

Not a thing wrong with sapele.

+1 JayT, I am looking forward to the reveal too.


----------



## Mosquito

we'll see how ambitious I am today (and bored/not busy). I've got a video done and uploaded, but need to work on the written portion of the blog I intend to do.


----------



## Mosquito

Got slightly ambitious… 
http://lumberjocks.com/Mosquito/blog/41118


----------



## TobyC

A nicely finished, skew-back pattern with striped back. Thin back, teeth bevel filed. Carved grip handle, stained gun metal, weatherproof finish. Cross-cut: 26"-7 and 8 points; Rip: 26"-5½ points, $1.75.

Here.


----------



## TobyC

K-4: Air Master.

Advertised with a carved hardwood handle, gun metal color, complete with four nickel-plated screws. Described to come with a thin back, teeth bevel-filed. I have observed the entire line, and while they are all taper ground, the previous three saws have less taper from cutting edge to the back. I have not observed saws with teeth that have not been filed by the owner. However, from the description, I assume that the KI-K3 models, while having crosscut profile teeth, did not have fleam like regular crosscut saws. Considering the inexpensive price, this is not an unreasonable assumption. Showing the etch of a small airplane, the saw had a skew-backed blade, lightweight width. Commonly observed.


----------



## TobyC

Is that Brad??


----------



## Brit

Where you been Toby? You've been conspicuous by your absence. Good to see you back.


----------



## planepassion

Yes Toby, the cat is out of the bag! I indeed did get the machinist's dye confused with my pomade 

It's a chick magnet. You wouldn't believe how women start conversations with me.


----------



## summerfi

Here's a 14" Drabble & Sanderson sash saw that I replaced the plate on.

*Before*










*After*
The plate is 0.025" x 3.75" under spine, filed 12 ppi crosscut.










Note the small rectangular patch between the screws. This was done by a previous owner. I'm not sure why, unless he did it to remove the name of an even more previous owner. After considering the options, I decided to leave it. It doesn't hurt anything, and it's a part of the saw's history.










The heavy steel spine is 15/16" at the heel, tapering to 13/16 at the toe. The weight gives the saw a very solid feel. I tested it on a piece of cherry and was a little surprised just how well it cut.

The spine is stamped Drabble & Sanderson, London. The company operated in Sheffield from 1825 until the early 20th century. Sheffield saw makers sometimes stamped London on their saws as an indicator of quality (e.g. London Spring) rather than location where made. This was likely a marketing strategy in a very competitive industry. I believe this saw was made around 1860-ish.


----------



## john2005

That's lookin pretty sharp Bob.

Lookin forward to the reveal Mos. Looks like you are off to a good start.


----------



## TobyC

Andy,... Been hangin' in the swamp, dude









Brad,... Now you need a blue 'stache!









Bob,... You do good work my friend!


----------



## chrisstef

I envy your rehabs bob. Youre comin up with some real gems and i really hope you start making your owns saws. I might be able to sneak some saws out of ebay without you around


----------



## donwilwol

Looks good Bob.


----------



## summerfi

Thanks guys. Stef, I only take the cheap ones. I leave all the others for you. Isn't that enough?


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Your restores never….ever get old Bob.


----------



## Brit

Lovely job Bob. The little wooden inset is interesting. Never seen anything like that.


----------



## chrisstef

Yea that the problem Bob. They hit $40 and im out. I need to finish a few up and off load some to re-up my account with the monies. I really want to do a new plate refurb now.


----------



## ErikF

I have made my way up to split nut making level #10. I acquired a second lathe off of craigslist about a week ago. It took some work to get it ready to run but I can really turn some saw parts with this bad boy, the key to success lies in the turret tailstock and dual tool posts.


----------



## ToddJB

Nice Erik, is that a Le Blonde?


----------



## ErikF

It is a Logan 940-2. This is my second Logan and I'm impressed by the quality of both. I started out with a mini 7X10 from harbor freight, it worked fine but only weighed 80lbs so it lacked the rigidity needed for taking heavy cuts.


----------



## ToddJB

Nice man, yes those are far cry from the HF lathe


----------



## richardwootton

Do you guys know where to find a split nut screw driver?


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Man Erik's gonna have a saw company up and running in no time.

Come to think of it, I think some LJs would definitely be interested if Erik, Bob, Wally…or any of our budding sawmakers were to offer a saw kits. I know that handles are a time consuming part of the process that some woodworkers wouldn't mind doing themselves. Anyway, no pressure on anyone if they're not interested….just tossing that out there.

Richard- Toolsforworkingwood.com sells a nice split nut insert. Of course LN sells them. A while back some of us got on a kick and made our own out of a spade bit. Kinda fun. Here's mine.









Check this out:
http://makezine.com/2010/06/17/homemade-split-nut-driver/


----------



## WayneC

Tools for Working Wood, Lie-Nielsen, or make one.


----------



## summerfi

Blackburn also sells a little different type of driver.

Erik, your dedication to saw making is impressive. If you aren't careful, this is going to turn into a full time profession. ;-)


----------



## ErikF

I wouldn't mind tool making being a full time gig. I'm working on a few tools besides saws right now so saws have been slow. I do have 12 kits minus the handle that I do plan to sell in the near future, both copper and brass. Right now I'm working on marking gauges and an idea for a plane. I'll put a few kits on here when I get them wrapped up to see if anyone wants one. Here is the marking gauge so far…prototyping phase


----------



## BigRedKnothead

^ohhh. I like where this is going.

I can't wait to get my to get my kit. Though, I really need to finish my joinery bench before I go on another tool making tangent.


----------



## richardwootton

+1 To Red's comment on liking where this is going. I love the saw that I got from Erik!


----------



## ToddJB

Erik has some serious brass.


----------



## Brit

Go Erik!


----------



## CampD

Thought I'd join the party with todays new pick-up.
Helped a buddy move a couple items to his new place and found this leaning in a stud bay in the garage.
Disston 24" backsaw, mostly just surface rust, handles shot.
See how she cleans up.


----------



## donwilwol

Erik, I'm a little envious. I'd love to get into the metal working. Like I need another hobby.

I think the kit idea is cool as well. I must need another saw. I need to think about this for a while.


----------



## ErikF

Don, I never saw myself getting into metalworking but one tool is all it took. I've managed to get my hands on two lathes and a vertical mill over the last 6 months and learning on them has been a blast. If I want to build something or fix something all I have to do throw a block or rod of metal on a machine then let the chips start flying.


----------



## planepassion

Erik, I live that you went vintage to get your split nut machining needs covered. Lots of specialized knowledge and experience behind that I'm sure.


----------



## racerglen

Rust hunt Saturday









A 22 and a half steel backed Disston and sons, small medalion, blade etch says in part as someone had started to "restore"it with a power tool of some sort "Godall manufacturing co", something "field mass", at the top "made extra--" 









It's 12 tpi/ppi, the handle was broken completely just about an inch above the bottom horn, that wasn't an issue but the crack across the face of the handle on the non medalion side isn't co operating, cleaned it out, won't close under clamping.









the medalion's the smaller size, and isn't solid on the back.










Hmm, not as clear a shot as it showed in the camera..oh, the other's D-8, 5 tpi/ppi 26" ..tried both on a chunk of fir when I got home, both make a quick and straight cut.
Oh, the pair were two dollars each at separate sales.


----------



## theoldfart

Glenn, Goodell Pratt, Greenfield, MA.

Todays hunt results 









Simonds No. 10 6 pt 









EC Stearns jointer








A good morning!


----------



## racerglen

Nice haul Kevin !
Looked again at the etch, it is "GODALL MANUFACTURING CO." and another angle does show a faint "G"at the start of the place of manufacture, so that'd be Greenfield alright, but definately only one oh, and no pratt at all, (no room for him in the space ;-)


----------



## Wally331

Nice work Eric, everything's really coming together. You got some serious machinery man! I'll have to wait a few years to get anything like that, this will be my last year in this house and I think metal lathes in dorm rooms are frowned upon  Keep up the work on those other tools, ya know I kinda need a small mallet for plane adjusting…

Good looking saw Bob. I like that little patch between the screws, is it a piece of inlay banding?

Sweet pickups by Kevin and Glen too.


----------



## bandit571

After looking around for lawn mower parts the other day, saw a few items for chainsaws. Wondering IF there is a way to convert a saw file holder to hold ones for hand saws? I THINK there is even a few angles scribed on the holders. "Uncle Arthur" makes holding small items like 5" extra slim tapers a bit rough to do. Have a few old saws in need of some "Dental" work….


----------



## theoldfart

Glenn, look like this?


----------



## bandit571

Heading down to the Dungeon, seems a saw needs a little jointing down, too.

Why would the first 8" or so be worn down to almost the "Gum Line" and the rest perfectly fine, and SHARP?

Almost like the farmer was using it for the "short strokes" and not the entire length of the plate. Barely even a gullet to show a tooth was there. Three teeth out on the end aren't too bad, then that worn out area, then the like-new rest of the plate.

Don't know whether to joint the entire saw ( what a waste) joint the end to breast the saw a bit, or make a "panel" saw out of a 1890s Skew back Disston D8? Already have rebuilt the tote on it.

Just a $2 saw









The bottom one, mainly in the rusty section. Top plate is rebuilt into a short backsaw ( what was a good section) and the rest will make decent card scrapers.









It is somewhere between a snaggle tooth, and a Gummy bear. More towards the Gummy bear side of things. Doubt even wally could help this…


----------



## theoldfart

I think someone started to join it and didn't finish.


----------



## racerglen

TOF, not quite, the makers name's in an arch with the "made extra" in a line above, can't see anything etched between the arched name and the greenfield etc that's in a straight line below, there's no way I can get a picture, it's so faint, I'm taking bodily parts a t risk as I write this, got it across my lap ;-)
The stamp on the back is "cast steel-Henry Disston & Sons in an arch followed by warranted, fine print below the arched name is Philladelphia.. Your picture shows what appears to be a much larger etch than this one, it's an inch and a quarter tall, by a bit over two and three quarters wide.
(at one time the back/spine was blued as discovered when the handle was removed.)

BUT ! It's my mispelling..frippin eye strain.."GOODELL MANUFACTURING CO" missed the second oh somehow in the orriginal post..


----------



## bandit571

Tried it out as is, yep, farmer JD was using just that much to saw some tree limbs with. If I got beyond the worn down spot, it would bind. Worn down area does cut green wood, though.

Tried out the 1953 D-7 Lightweight saw on the other end, cuts very well, thank you very much…


----------



## racerglen

Well, didn't want to try the sharpie on the etch for fear the the power sander marks would blank the rest,, but gave it a shot..the top line now seems to be "Made expressly for" 









Dang, wish I could get a descent shot..









And in case the edited post earlier got missed "GOODELL MANUFACTURING CO"..left out the second OH..

(oh oh..)


----------



## Tim457

OF, that's crazy. I just picked up a Simonds #10. Oddly enough it has a nib at the end and the blocky handle and Simonds medallion seemed out of place so I assumed it was a frankensaw, but then I saw the etch and found out it was one of their budget saws with a beech handle.
http://sawnutz.galootcentral.com/simonds/handsaws.htm
So the nib still seems out of place. Maybe it was filed in later.

















Edit: Oh and that jointer is sweet. I'm on the lookout for one, especially the long style.


----------



## Tim457

Wally, you may not be able to fit the gear in your dorm room, but the good news about college is they typically have one or more machine shops to support various university functions. The grounds and maintenance department might have some and often the engineering or physics departments have their own for making custom parts for projects or keeping various experiments running. The trick would be talking to the right people and making friends.


----------



## theoldfart

Tim, the Simonds catalogue I looked at didn't show a nib.


----------



## summerfi

Here's some pretty good info on the Simonds No. 10 .


----------



## theoldfart

Old eyes, there is a nib!


----------



## racerglen

Too many Goodells.

Henry E. Goodell and the Goodell Manufacturing Company

In August 1902, Henry E. Goodell went into business with his son-in-law, Perley E. Fay, and his brother-in-law, Fred A. Gaines. The men formed the Goodell Manufacturing Company, a corporation for the production of hardware specialties in which Goodell served as company president, Fay as treasurer and Gaines as clerk. Construction soon began on a modest one-story building measuring 100 feet by forty feet with a forty by forty basement. The new factory was located on Greenfield's West Main Street.(18) Among the earliest tools manufactured at the plant were the Goodell Boring Tool, a cutoff tool for small-diameter round stock, and a self centering punch. The Goodell Boring Tool was a specialized device designed for electricians and steamfitters who worked in environments where it was necessary to bore a large number of holes in a wooden floor within a short period of time-a situation encountered by such workers as contractors constructing apartment blocks or retrofitting older structures for electricity or steam heat. Fitted with a Clark expansive bit with two cutters, the tool could be easily adjusted to bore holes of different sizes. Goodell's boring tool may have been too specialized; it disappeared from the market within several years of its introduction.(19) Goodell Manufacturing's bell-type self-centering punch, designed for marking the centers on both square and round stock, was more successful and eventually sold by the Goodell-Pratt Company.

Goodell Boring Tool 
cut-off tool 
bell center punch

In his seminal article "Sorting out the Goodell Companies," Kenneth Cope writes that the Goodell-Pratt Company became part owner of the Goodell Manufacturing Company in 1903 and sole distributor of its tools.(20) Certainly the distribution arrangement belongs to the latter part of Goodell Manufacturing's history. For its first fourteen years, the company published its own circulars and price lists, and advertisements for the Goodell Boring Tool, the company's cut-off tool, its center punch and miter boxes appeared in trade journals directing readers to the company's Main Street address. These tools, which defined Goodell Manufacturing's line of products, did not appear in Goodell-Pratt Company catalogs until 1917, the year after Henry Goodell's retirement from an active role in the business.
The Goodell Mfg. Company's all-steel miter box, patented by Henry E. Goodell in 1904, was touted for the quality of its construction and its resistance to breakage. As anyone who has given a cast iron miter box hard usage might attest, careless transportation and setup can result in the destruction of its more delicate parts-especially the legs that support the table. The steel components of Goodell's miter box were far more durable. A premium tool so popular that it was still marketed when the Goodell-Pratt Company was absorbed by the Millers Falls Company, the Goodell All-Steel Miter Box-now identified as a Millers Falls product-was sold until the latter 1940s when a re-design eliminated many of its distinctive features. Goodell Manufacturing brought out a second, cheaper miter box in 1910 when Henry Goodell was issued United States Letters Patent No. 978,576 for an iron miter box equipped with saw guides adjustable for blades of various thicknesses. This later tool was marketed as the Greenfield Miter Box, and it, too, was picked up by the Goodell-Pratt Company in 1917. Shortly afterward, Goodell-Pratt eliminated the Greenfield designation and re-named the box the Model 1000. The Model 1000 was dropped from the Goodell-Pratt lineup sometime between 1928 and 1930 and replaced with another inexpensive model.

All-steel miter box 
Greenfield Miter Box 
Greenfield double ball bearing chuck

Goodell Manufacturing's Greenfield Drill Chuck, in production by 1912 and added to the Goodell-Pratt catalog in 1917, was a machinist's dream. With a one-piece shell, concealed threads and double ball bearings, the chuck tightened well with minimal pressure, and its jaws centered easily and accurately. In some ways, the quality of the chuck was a reflection of the quality of the operation as a whole. The Goodell Manufacturing Company made good products was known as a good place to work. Turnover was low; its machinists were valued, and it was proud of its status as a unionized factory. Though a small enterprise, employees worked nine-hour days; they received time and a half for overtime and double time for Sundays. Its agreement with the International Association of Machinists required a minimum of one apprentice for the factory or one for every five journeymen. A typical apprenticeship lasted four years, after which the employee achieved journeyman pay status; the shop employed only union members as skilled workers.(21) At the time, the Goodell Manufacturing Company was considered a model of a progressive business.
Henry E. Goodell died of pneumonia on February 23, 1923, and William M. Pratt, the president of the Goodell-Pratt Company, assumed the presidency of Goodell Manufacturing. In March, 1930, the Goodell-Pratt Company purchased the remainder of the Goodell Manufacturing Company from Henry Goodell's son-in-law, Perley E. Fay, and moved its equipment to the main Goodell-Pratt plant on Wells Street.


----------



## Tim457

Thanks Bob, I hadn't seen that. The handle on mine is much blockier than the one in that link. So much so, that I questioned if it was the handle that went to the saw. My other link said Simonds made saws till about 1926, and I didn't realize handles like this were made then. But another catalog showed one about like mine.


----------



## summerfi

That does look like a 1950's or later handle Tim. Might be worth removing the handle to see if there are extra holes in the plate.


----------



## CampD

I've been lurking on this page gathering info, while feeding my addiction to antique tools on another addictive page. It has been my goal that someday I would clean-up and restore the collection of saws I inherited from my Grandfather. I will confess I have cleaned up a couple that I do need and use, a 10" backsaw and a dovetail saw, both nothing special while the full sized handsaws sat on a shelf collecting dust.

I started out Sunday afternoon cleaning up the 26" mitre saw that I acquired on Saturday and decided to spend the rest of the day while I had all the cleaning junk out to just dive-in and see what else I had.

First, it turns out that the 26" Mitre saw is a Stanley sweet heart and is the correct saw for my Stanley #246 Mitre Box (that needs to be cleaned-up, but that's for another day) the saw cleaned up very nicely. Still need to fix the handle by either gluing on a new piece of maple or just go for a full remake.



















Second up was the mitre saw that I had thought was part of the mitre box I inherited and had last used long ago in my first adventures into woodworking. The saw had a coating of primer on parts of it but underneath was in great shape. 
Well it turns out that I have a 20" Langdon Mitre box saw and in my research turns out that they can be valuable.

The blade before clean-up



























Third I cleaned up a Disston cross cut saw that was a lot more rusted, still it cleaned-up and you can faintly see the Disston logo on the blade. Only marking on the blade I can find is a C/2 stamped under the handle. The handle is rosewood and is in not bad shape. The teeth need to be re-set, right now it has none (can anyone provide me with the set? and a type/date?) and sharpened.
Before clean-up



























And finally I'll throw-in a pic of a Grants crosscut saw, who remembers Grants stores? and it still even has the price sticker on it. I use this saw to cut out sheet rock in window/door openings.










On my rust hunts I'm always on the lookout for a nice dovetail saw and really that's all I'll need.
Thanks for any info


----------



## chrisstef

Doug - it looks like you've found a very nice saw there on that Disston. It looks like a 16. http://disstonianinstitute.com/16page.html

As far as a saw set goes LeeValley sells the Somax Its fairly decent and will do what you need. If you can find an old Stanley 42 or 42x youd be even a little better off.


----------



## CampD

Good info chrisstef, Thanks!
About all I can make out of the etching is the Disston Logo with the scale and some of the Word Disston but that sure matches it.

I do have a saw set, both new and an old. I am on the look-out for a saw vise also.

I'm going to clean-up some of my planes today, both some new rusties and my users that got flashed over on these damn New England spring weather changes!


----------



## racerglen

So, Ill try again..computer or LJ issue, dunno. Apologies for yesterday's Goodell history lesson, tried to do it as a link, wouldn't go, tried several things, one of the above froze repeatedly.. sigh..
Burried in that mess is the patenting of their all steel mitre box, that became …

". A premium tool so popular that it was still marketed when the Goodell-Pratt Company was absorbed by the Millers Falls Company, the Goodell All-Steel Miter Box-now identified as a Millers Falls product-was sold until the latter 1940s when a re-design eliminated many of its distinctive features. "


----------



## chrisstef

As far as a saw vice id say make your own Doug. Andy did a blog and tutorial on it a while back. Those small vices require you to move the saw too much in my opinion and some don't clamp down all that well leading to vibrations and an overall terrible sound. I do find that they work well for backsaws and dovetail saws.


----------



## Tim457

I thought the vintage vice was going to annoy me too, having to move it all the time, but surprisingly enough it didn't. I really only have to move it once while filing a full length saw and luckily enough mine clamps down nice and tight. I've only filed about 6 or 7 saws though so maybe if I were doing more it would annoy me more.

That said, building one is a great option because you can make it full length and clamp very nicely. Andy's version is great, and if you want a vintage design, there's a recent Woodwright's shop episode available online about one.

Edit: Bob I bet you're right without even pulling the handle yet. I looked at the other manual again and it doesn't match.


----------



## JayT

Anyone wanting a primo tenon saw?


----------



## richardwootton

Doug you got a couple nice looking scores there.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Got saw kit from Erik in good order. The split nut screws are seriously LN quality.









Maybe I can use this baby next time I build a Roubo.


----------



## exelectrician

My Atkins saw handle gets a makeover










Filed a small amount of definition on the inside of the handle and finished with Daley's yacht varnish, enjoy!


----------



## ErikF

I wish i could say I made those split nut screws! I had those from when I was ordering them instead of making my own. I really like the 1/4" square at the bottom of the head that keeps the screw locked in place. I think I can pull it off but need to make myself a jig or buy a collet block. One thing about metal work, tooling is expensive and there is always something to add. You also don't get far using the "hand tools only" method.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Oh shoot…assumed you made them Erik. Everything else is great too. Nice sharpening job. I've got some other stuff on my bench right now, but I'll post pics when its done.

exelectrician- nice job on the restore.


----------



## woodbench

Picked this one up today for $5.00 , doesn't seem to have ever been used! Im guessing probably 1950's-60's?? So was it a wise investment for a user?


----------



## Tim457

That'll make a great user if it's straight with no kinks. I'm no expert but 50's seems about right, even has some definition in the handle. You could rework the handle even a little more to round the part your paws grab on if it's not comfortable. Can't buy a better saw at the big box so you did great for $5.


----------



## richardwootton

I totally agree with Tim. $5 is a win on that saw.


----------



## TobyC

There are three lines of text in between the keystone and Henry's signature,... what does that say?


----------



## TobyC

What is the diameter of the label screw?

I'm thinking late '40s - early '50s.

Look.


----------



## Tim457

And there's the expert we needed. 
I see 
Reg something Pat Off
something
M something Rgstrada

Last line is the Spanish abbreviation for registered I think you told us about Toby. Middle one is French right?


----------



## upchuck

Sunday I bought more saws then I know what's good for me. Five in total. Two were total rust dogs that had most of there usable life filed right off them but at $2 apiece why not. 
These last three tho are as nice a group of saws as I've ever seen here in old tool hell. Top to bottom:
1) 26" Atkins 5 tpi rip the etch is faint but I believe it says "Atkins Perfection" 
2) 22" E.C. Simmonds Keen Kutter 12 tpi xcut No.88 with a small Keen Kutter medallion. 
and 3) (and this is the one that most delights and intrigues me) a 26" rip with 7 tpi, a nib, a Warranted Superior medallion w/eagle and a clear etch that reads: SANTA FE ROUTE/
SHOP USE/
Spring Steel Warranted/
Patent Temper Taper Ground
What did I find? Is this an old Rail Road saw?
These last three were about $5 per saw.


----------



## Wally331

Hey red now you'll have a roubo sized saw to go with your bench haha. Good luck with it!

Here is a small 9 inch 13 PPI dovetail saw. First in a set of 3 matching saws out of this decently figured sapele. No set in the teeth yet but I'll have info on how she does when I try her out.


----------



## ErikF

That saw is a beauty, Wally. I love the shape of the handle and the reflective grain. Keep up the good work and start researching ways to stash equipment in a dorm room…it has to be possible.


----------



## TobyC

Tim,... yep, that's french, were you able to date it with that link?


----------



## summerfi

REG. U.S. PAT. OFF.

M. DE F.

M. IND. RGTRADA

or

Registered with U. S. Patent Office
Marca de Fabrica [literally, Trade Name (i.e. trademark)]
Marca de Industria Registrada [literally, Registered Industry Mark (i.e. trademark)]


----------



## woodbench

Hey Toby…my mark is as Bob described above. Thanks all for the information


----------



## Tim457

Me? No, I defer to you, but it sure looks like you got it nailed down. The size of the medallion would say wether it was '47-'53 or '53-'55, but it's one of the two of those, so late forties early fifties was right on.

For some reason my memory of the Disstonian site was that the USA medallion started in 1950 not 1940, so I was off a bit there.

I also can't remember the details you posted about when the three language patent stuff started being added.


----------



## woodbench

At any rate, its older than I am (1958) and certainly will outlast me! Thanks for all the info gents


----------



## chrisstef

Nice haul there Chuckles. Those old railroad saws intrigue me as well. Have you been able to dig up any more info on it?


----------



## upchuck

Chrisstef-
No. I have no more information about that saw then what I posted. I don't even know that it is a RR saw. I was posting in the hope that someone here would know. I'd thought that the RR was the A., T. & S.F like the song but I don't know.


----------



## TobyC

Sorry Tim and Lloyd, I sort of mixed you together in my post, answering Tim and asking Lloyd at the same time.


----------



## Brit

Just sayin' Toby.


----------



## TobyC

Ouch!

Thanks buddy!


----------



## LeTurbo

I'm just sitting here thinking of the miracle of Bob's saw. 1860's. 150 years that little beaut has been around. Imagine the first guy who bought it, probably in London or Sheffield, Maybe a professional, maybe not. How it got passed through the family, how it was bought across the ocean on an emigrant boat, how it maybe kept a family alive, crossed the prairies, built furniture for homes that turned into cities. Actually, so many of these saws, the stories they could tell of hardship and joy, of hard work and neglect, of hopes achieved and hopes dashed …


----------



## summerfi

LeTurbo - It definitely would be interesting to know the stories behind these old tools we love. Their history is one of the biggest reasons I'm attracted to vintage tools. England made a LOT of tools for export to countries like the U.S., Canada, Australia, Russia, India, and really all over the world. Sheffield was THE tool making center of the world in those times. So in that context, it is likely that my saw was exported to the U.S. soon after manufacture. Once here, it's history is unknown, but no doubt would be interesting and quite possibly colorful.


----------



## racerglen

So here's last week's start, the Disston on top, made for Goodell Manufacturing Co.








and today



























22.5 " blade, 12 tpi, handle was broken just above the bottom horn, the cheek-face ? on the side oposite the medalion cracked. sanded and a coat of BLO.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Beautiful work, Glen.

Estate sale for me, this handsaw for $2.50:



















Incredibly sharp, appears unused. Very cool, added to the till!


----------



## richardwootton

Glen, great work on that back saw!

Smitty, nice score with that Atkins. Was that saw made in the 50s?


----------



## racerglen

Thanks Smitty n'Richard, it was a $2.00 score at a church yard sale that some one had attacked the blade with a power sander, but that Atkins at 50 cents more boggles !
Now from the archives..a saw I've had for probably a decade from my auction crazed days ..










Not sure of the vintage, probably late 50's or into the 60's, a German made Craftsman saw,









The second picture is the same saw, but the other end, obviously already used, it seems to have come from the factory ready to put the handle on either end, as it is, the etch is on the opposite side from the medalion and the teeth are pyramid shaped, not raked forward as usual.


















The shots are without the saw handle being changed by me, I'm not even thinking about trying an etch photo, but it's "CRAFTSMAN, SIMPSON SEARS LIMITED, and SIMPSONS LIMITED, made from best chrome vadnium alloy silver steel." and the medalion is a 5 point star surrounded by 'Made in Germany." 
It's a 16" blade and about 10 tpi.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Richard, haven't researched but that'd be my guess.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Can't find mention of an Atkins Sea Hawk anywhere…


----------



## donwilwol

Smitty, that Atkins is pretty cool.

Glenn, nice job on that miter. I've got one hanging on the wall that needs the same treatment.


----------



## Brit

Nice saws guys.

I've got a question for the esteemed panel. In 1931 Atkins published a book entitled "Atkins Saw Book for the Farm Workshop and Woodlands". In it, they show a picture of a workbench which has what they call a "saw slot". I've seen a lot of workbenches, but I can't ever remember seeing any with a saw slot. I'm assuming that you slide a board in and push down on the end sticking out so the other end is held against the underside of the workbench top by friction and then make a crosscut. Do you think my assumption is right and if so, has anyone ever seen/used a saw slot? Is it useful? Does it have any advantages over clamping a board to the top of the bench? Maybe it isn't used in the way I imagine. If so, how is it used? I'll shut up now.


----------



## donwilwol

I thought you were going to go on and on forever. 

Actually that's something I haven't seen either, and until now probably wouldn't know what it was for anyhow. It actually a good idea. I'm sure it's quicker than clamping and no clamps needed.

nice post Andy.


----------



## DanKrager

Brit, I've never seen this before either on any side of the pond. But I think the key is "sawing slot", not "saw slot". That said, it looks like your "assumption" is spot on. It's actually pretty clever.
DanK


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

I agree with your interpretation, Andy, and with Dan's/Don's assessments. 18" wide would cover just about every typical board you'd want to cut, so if your farm woodshop bench had such a slot, it'd likely be the dogs bollocks.


----------



## Brit

Yes Dan you're right. Sorry I meant to say sawing slot. I gues it is a good idea a) if you do a lot of crosscutting of boards that will fit in the slot and b) you have enough space in front of the slot to be able to feed the board into the slot. I don't know whether there is a corresponding slot on the other side of the bench. If not it might be a bit limiting.


----------



## Brit

It always amuses me how you guys have never forgotten that saying Smitty ) Sometimes we say "That's the bee's knees" instead and sometime I like to mix them up and say "That's the bee's bollocks".


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Stupid Atkins… Can't find any reference to a No. 150 or a Sea Hawk. I have learned the Co.'s demise was around 1952; the line art on the saw's etch is pretty art deco-ish as well. Maybe the 40s? It does not say Silver Steel, and the handle is clearly not up to the standards found on their premium line. Late forties? It's all a guess.

No hits on fleabay searches of completed auctions, and the search at old tool archives isn't working.


----------



## chrisstef

Thats a pretty interesting discovery Andy. Your thinking is dead on in my opinion. The issue that pops up in my head is how thick of a board could you fit into the slot without a bunch of slop. Pretty slick idea though.


----------



## Brit

I saw it in the book a long time ago Stef, but forgot about it until I went looking for Smitty's Sea Hawk saw. I guess if you have aprons either side of your bench and no dog holes in the top (as is the case with the bench shown above), your options for clamping a board for crosscutting are a bit limited.


----------



## DocBailey

Hey Andy

I've got an idea: you could read the words in that catalog and see if it says anything about the pictures *;-)*


----------



## Brit

Hey Doc… I was just testing if you were awake. You passed.


----------



## DocBailey

I've never been more proud.

(wait a minute-have you branded yourself with the scarlet letter "L" for loser?-that is uncalled for)


----------



## bandit571

Lets see

1-1/4" wide piece of bandsaw blade
Three sticks of wood
a piece of all thread, and a washer and wing nut
two brass bolt-like things, with the ends slotted and drilled for a pin (bent nail)

Maybe an hour or two at the bench

Then try out the new Frame saw?

Might just try that some day, after a jack plane is finished up…


----------



## Brit

It means 'Learner' this side of the pond. Do you guys put these on your car when you're learning to drive?


----------



## TobyC

No!!!


----------



## upchuck

Brit-
More likely to have large signs saying "Student Driver" on every side of the car. Even large trucks from the driving schools are typically marked like that.
chuck


----------



## racerglen

Nice Toby, or not ;-)
Andy in B.C. we have the "L" and an "N" class, learner,and novice and if you fit the catagory and aren't "displaying" your letter, there's a stiff fine.


----------



## Brit

Toby - They say what goes around, comes around buddy and it was only 2 days ago that I stuck the 'L' on your picture. LOL.










Still nothing can harsh my mellow today as I just won this 1/8" I. Sorby pig sticker on ebay.










I got this one last year, so now it won't be lonely…










What has this got to do with saws? Absolutely Jack! So here is a nice photo of a saw…










Off for a stroll along the beach now. Can life get any better?


----------



## theoldfart

Andy, Punch Logo on the Sorby?


----------



## Brit

No, doesn't look like it Kevin.


----------



## theoldfart

Either way, awesome sticker! Happy pounding.


----------



## richardwootton

Sweet pig stickers! And super clean mortises there Andy…


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Man, there is nothing out there on a No. 150 Atkins Sea Hawk saw. If anyone comes across such a beast in an old catalog reprint or whatever, let me know pls.


----------



## TobyC

I looked too, got nuthin'!


----------



## Brit

Here you go Smitty. Different graphic on your saw, so could be a variant. From an add on ebay.com produced by the Van Camp Hardware and Iron Co.










Mouse-over the ad below to see the source.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1939-AD-Disston-Masterpiece-Hand-Saw-Framed-Panel-Store-Display-Case-Cabinet-/150988350303?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item23279b635f

Atkins probably positioned your saw to compete with the Disston Keystone range. Take a look at the following ad and check out the design of the graphics on the Keystone saws and the similar wartime sounding names.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1937-AD-Keystone-Hand-Saw-Store-Displayy-Rack-Stand-Disston-/150996925138?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item23281e3ad2

That said, my guess would be 1935 to 1945.


----------



## chrisstef

The search fu is strong with this one boys ^


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

"... new style air-dried roomy beech handles…"

VS the 1939 ad (wonderful find, Andy!), I'd say the graphic I have is newer than the one in the ad, yes. At least now there's corroborating evidence the thing existed!

And 'Special Quality Steel' is not silver steel. Definitely a value line saw.


----------



## TobyC

Andy said,... "Here I come to save the day!!!"


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

And this from the Old Tools list (thanks Bill from Ohio!):

"Hand-saw Makers of North America says Sheffield Saw Works was an Atkins sub-brand and lists dates of 1904-1919. It doesn't show a model #150, but does list a #156 and a #159. The Atkins 1919 catalog reprint does not show this model either. However, my 1935 Atkins catalog shows five saws under the Sheffield brand as "moderately priced" handsaws. The next page, but not listed as Sheffield, lists the #150 Sea Hawk Skew Back. Beech grip, carved, brown stain, lacquered. Came in 20, 22, 24 & 26 inch lengths, 7, 8, ,9 & 10 ppi for the x-cut and 5 1/2 for the rip. the 26 inch saws were $17.65 per doz. The 26" Sheffield were $28.05 to 34.35 per doz. and the ten Atkins branded saws ran $39.20 (ship pattern) to $72.65 (400 "Masterpiece of the line")."

A good answer most worthy of repeating here for enquiring minds. Not sure of the significance of Andy's pic being of the #150A. That's a mystery for another day, I guess.


----------



## TobyC

The "A" is for "Andy".


----------



## chrisstef

Just scooped up what looks like a Disston 99 rip saw. 24" long and dating 1890-1906 from my best decuction. Standard chipped upper horn included.


----------



## DonBroussard

Stef-"Standard chipped upper horn included"-funny! Are the three medallions standard on the '99? I have a saw with several medallions and I always thought that someone filled the holes with medallions due to a lack of saw nuts.


----------



## chrisstef

The 3 medallions were standard on the 99 for a period of time (1865-1906?) from what ive gathered. Around 1906 they started offering the floral carving with only one medallion. It was one of their high end saws made from London Spring Steel. I know on the 12's, which were also made from the LSS, there is a designated "x" stamped on the plate hidden by the handle. Im itching to see if this one rings true to that designation. I can see a slight etch underneath some of the rust and im hoping it can be salvaged and prove its indeed a 99.

I think I remember you posting that saw Don. I would venture to guess that if its got that "x" yours is a 99 as well.


----------



## chrisstef

Reading a bit further into the Disstonian site, the 77 also had 3 medallions but it had a handle akin to the 12 with the circular knuckle notch (or whatever its called) and not a "V" notch.


----------



## richardwootton

Stef, did you pick that up the same place where you got the diapers in the pic?


----------



## chrisstef

Lol, those are actually baby wipes and a 12 rack of soap from BJ's. If they start selling saws it might make that adventure a bit more pleasing.


----------



## chrisstef

Aww yeaa!!










Aww aww yea!!


----------



## DonBroussard

Nice. Very nice. Looks like the 99 is marked with a 99 and no X. Good details on the etch.


----------



## theoldfart

Shazam Stef, fantastic find!


----------



## richardwootton

I'm pretty sure TOF just said shazam! Did he just reveal to us all that he also says huzzah, and plays D&D?


----------



## ToddJB

Stef, I'd take an angle grinder to that etch to make sure I got it really clean. These antiques sometime need some elbow grease.


----------



## DocBailey

Bad Todd

Nice find Stef!


----------



## 69BBNova

chrisstef--sorry I haven't answered your question sooner…

The blueing I use I bought from Fastenal but I'm guessing it can be found elsewhere…

Dykem steel blue layout fluid, it says for industrial use only, (probably because of the strong smell)...

Its made by ITWDYKEM, www.dykem.com, 800-443-9536


----------



## theoldfart

Richard, D&D. Dadoes and Dovetails?


----------



## chrisstef

All good Nova. I may have to make a run down to the local Fastenal and see if they've got the goods. You seem to have had pretty good results with it.

Ive been scouring the web for what that 99 might be worth and I cant find a lick of info on it. There was one woodweb thread in regard to a 99 with split nuts that went for mid two hundreds.

If anyone got any info they can dig up id like to hear about it.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Going rate is $25, I hear…


----------



## chrisstef

Always a smarty pants in the bunch 

I haven't seen any shop photos lately Smitty, im in slight withdrawls.


----------



## planepassion

Yeah Smitty. How about some heft and hubris photos?


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Hog said your withdrawals,stef, are typically slight…


----------



## chrisstef

Thank you sir. My morning coffee now tastes a little bit better.


----------



## summerfi

Stef - Congrats on that find. I've looked, and it's true there just isn't a lot of info out there. How about a pic of the whole saw?


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

My pleasure, and I second the motion from Bob…


----------



## theoldfart

^ the eyes have it, pics, pics, pics….....


----------



## chrisstef

All ive got is an in progress clean up picture less the handle Bob. I guess excitement got the best of me lol:









Its got one broken tooth up by the toe and the tooth line kind of dips toward the toe as well


----------



## Mosquito

just out of curiosity, when polishing a plate up, how far do you usually go with sandpaper? On the small panel saw I'm making, I was thinking 1000 grit was a good place to stop at.


----------



## chrisstef

For refurbs I usually don't get past 400 Mos but I don't get super shiny either. I think 1000 is a good place to stop.


----------



## JayT

I also usually stop at 400, a couple have gone to 600. One website (TGIAG, maybe?) references polishing up to 1500, but I don't know why, other than to be shiny.

Edit: My one Veritas has a brushed, satin finish rather than polished, so not even all the manufacturers go for a polished look.


----------



## bandit571

Since I wore out two hacksaw blades, had to go out and buy two new blades.

#1 went on a Great Neck #50, with the fringer grip handles. Had to adjust for the longer length blades

#2 went on a Wards Master Quality with the "Amber" style handles. Length was ok, no adjustment needed.

Stanley 24 tooth blades, for now. Used the one hacksaw to help make the last Chinese handplane build.


----------



## summerfi

Here's something I've found useful for polishing saw plates. A 4" scotch brite ball…chuck it in your drill and go to town. Comes in 400 and 180 grit at HF, though in practice I don't see a lot of difference between the two. I use this for the final stages, not when starting out to get the rust off. I've never gone finer than 400 on a restore.


----------



## richardwootton

Thanks for the tip Bob.


----------



## ToddJB

Bob, that sounds like a much better idea than putting a scotch brite pad on your ROS, which is what I have been doing.


----------



## chrisstef

I needs me one of those guys. Thanks for the hot tip Bob.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

I hope no one tries this with a more desirable saw.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Very-Unique-Handmade-Hand-Saw-Book-Ends-Looks-like-saw-goes-thru-books-Disston-/251116205867?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a77b1372b


----------



## ToddJB

Smitty, you could use the blade side to hold your page for future referencing.


----------



## Tim457

Mos, I've never gone more than 400 grit myself, but if you go farther and polish it up, you can use the reflection trick to tell if you're sawing square.

I picked up a Disston raker gauge today, the patent calls it a Crosscut Saw Tool, but I can't find anything else about it like a model number. Patent is Nov 7, 1916. Seems to be complete.









Also picked up this chisel for $.10. Didn't realize they made the tools too.


----------



## ToddJB

Tim, maybe that chisel came out of their testing factory. *Shudder*


----------



## Mosquito

I should clarify, this is a brand new saw plate, and not a restore…

I like to use the reflection trick when I can. It's a neat little trick.


----------



## woodchuckerNJ

Anyone ever here of Hempe Manufacturing. Just picked up a miter saw… at least I believe it is. 
It's a long back saw, wit crosscut teeth … 11 per inch.

More modern handle, needs cleaning but the cut is fine and really nice.


----------



## ToddJB

Jeff, I've only ever seen a Hempe Miter box (no saw, ironically). Didn't purse it after I saw the ridiculously high thrift store price tag. But the following day, I saw a craftsman miter box (no saw, either) that was identical to it. So maybe the made some stuff for craftsman or vice versa.

Sorry, not much help.


----------



## TobyC

Tim,

DATAMP

Google


----------



## TobyC

Disston Imperial Cross-cut Saw Tools.


----------



## Brit

Toby - Disston Imperial Cross-cut Saw Tools link isn't working for me.


----------



## TobyC

Oops, sorry,

Go here.

And click on "Disston Crosscut saw Booklet"


----------



## Tim457

Above and beyond, Toby, it even has instructions on use. Those catalogues all have some really useful stuff.
Gauge has almost no japanning but I can't see anything missing. Seemed worth $2.

Off course it was the two other saws, a Disston and an Atkins, with slightly wavy plates and chipped handles that I couldn't manage to turn down for $3 that might indicate the beginnings of a problem.


----------



## TobyC

Jeff,

Hempe


----------



## chrisstef




----------



## woodchuckerNJ

Thanks, I saw that web site earlier. Not a lot of help. I am surprised by the lack of info on saws.


----------



## summerfi

What a perfect etch Stef. Amazing.


----------



## richardwootton

Lookin' mighty fine there buddy!


----------



## DonBroussard

Stef-That's etch looks like it's right out of a catalog! Nice discovery and nice save! Did you use a bluing agent to get that contrast?


----------



## chrisstef

No bluing added. Looks brand new, fresh outtadabox !


----------



## chrisstef

Whats the group opinion on what i should do with the handle?


----------



## Brit

Fine work on that etch Stef. If I was doing the handle, I would repair the top horn, give it a good sanding, apply some oxalyc acid to lessen the staining, wash it, sand it again. wipe on two coats of BLO, then wipe on three thin coats of satin poly. Rub out with 0000 steel wool when totally dry, then wax and buff it.


----------



## upchuck

Stef-
What's that spot of black funk where the web between the thumb and the index finger rub? I've just removed similar funk that covered 60% of a handle. Everywhere a hand would go and around the ends and edges was covered with it. I started with a green kitchen scrub pad and water. Then scrubber plus soap. Lacquer Thinner
and OOOO steel wool was the final (but destructive) solution. I also have a top horn repair due for this handle.
With no original finish left I'll sand mine to 320 and BLO. How skilled are you at blending old and new finishes? I'm not skilled. Handles must be friendly with my hands. I would need to repair your top horn if it was my saw.
Disston 99. Lucky you.
chuck


----------



## TobyC

What Andy said except for the finish. I use Minwax Antique Oil Finish, it has boiled linseed oil and varnish in it, and is easy to use.


----------



## richardwootton

Stef when I asked the same question I was instructed to graft a piece on and shape it. I want to see some pics of that Harvey peace saw you scored.


----------



## TobyC

Daryl Weir soaks his in lacquer thinner (the ones that get a total refinish) and it removes just about everything.


----------



## richardwootton

Thanks for the Daryl Weir tip, I'll have to use that.


----------



## chrisstef

Thanks for all the opinions fellas. Ill see what ive got on hand but in any regard the census says take it all the way back. Noted. Horn needs a bit of work. Its not exactly my strong suit but i agree it should be fixed.

Chuck - funk spot is unknown but categorized as you described; black funk.

RW - harvey peace as requested:


----------



## richardwootton

That's pretty damn sweet brother!


----------



## summerfi

What Andy said with two exceptions. I start by spraying the handle with oven cleaner to remove all the old oil, grease, and dirt. And for the finish I skip the BLO. I don't like it or think it is necessary.


----------



## TobyC

I've used oven cleaner on old military gun stocks, does a pretty good job. Can leave the wood a little fuzzy though.


----------



## Brit

I agree with Bob about removing the old wax and polish first. I forgot to mention that. I usually use Liberon Wax and Polish Remover for that. I apply it with some 0000 steel wool, then leave it to dry for 24 hours.


----------



## theoldfart

Good rust hunt this 'morning









A Simonds # 71 Blue Ribbon, their top grade, with a real good etch, needs a resharpening.









The other is a Diston with a snapped plate. Just liked the handle and figured I could put the hardware to good use. $5 for both.


----------



## summerfi

Nice looking Simonds, Kevin. The etch looks superb.


----------



## chrisstef

Nice haul Kevin. I left a similar Simonds behind when i scooped that 99. Might have to go back and save another one.

That disston handle looks like a 12.


----------



## theoldfart

Stef, I'm trying to assuage my inner collector so if you get the Simonds maybe we could trade a Diston? The Diston I picked up does not seem to have an etch so not sure what it is.

Bob, I was really psyched when the 71 came into view. It's my first blue ribbon and second Simonds this year. Trying for a complete nest of Simonds.


----------



## Tim457

That's sweet Kevin. Man I love it that people think hand saws are a waste and worthless. I just need to hold out for the better quality ones now.


----------



## theoldfart

Tim, it's kind of funny. The last four saws i've picked up were from the same guy. He's willing to haggle and I never pay more than $5 Today I got the two for $5. In the same flea market I tried to buy a set of hinges and the woman would not budge on price yet another dealer a couple of tables down readily bargained for pretty much the same item and we met in the middle. Go figure.


----------



## TobyC

Is that a No. 9???

Don't part that one out, super cool!!!

"Extra London Spring Steel,Apple Handle"


----------



## theoldfart

Toby, I'm not sure what it is. I liked the tote profile so I grabbed it. I'll post a better pic later.

Edit, Tony which one are saying is a number 9? The Simonds is a 71, apple handle.


----------



## chrisstef

My call of a 12 might be off OF. I think Tobys got it pegged as a no. 9 and hes right.

http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/9page.html


----------



## Brit

Toby knows his saws and pretty much every other damn tool come to that. Good bloke to have around. Lovely saws Kevin. That Simmonds etch is gorgeous.

I had a not so rusty hunt this weekend from the comfort of my armchair. Actually I was wiring up my workshop and kept rushing in to bid every now and then.

Won these (seller's pics):

Small Pfeil drawknife (As new): 









E.T. Roberts & Lee bowsaw. 10" I think. (Excellent condition)









Millers Falls No. 81 (Minty)









Missed out on this one:


----------



## theoldfart

Andy, I've been chasing turn screws like those for a few years now, always too expensive!

Saw pics



























So the question is, why does Toby say "Don't part it out"?


----------



## chrisstef

london Spring steel X ^. Aww yea.


----------



## Brit

Don't forget the 'Extra' Stef. I think the 'X' represents e*X*tra London Spring Steel. Goes through a few more processes apparently.

Looks like Kevin's No. 9 is from the 1880s. Nice.


----------



## theoldfart

Too bad it's broken ;-(

There are two other marks, a light 9 and a heavy 11 yet the saw is 3 1/2 ppi. Maybe resharpened?

BTW Toby is that ppi or tpi, some commie on another site was causing a ruckus about that!i


----------



## chrisstef

Not because Kevins eXtra special?

Is that another stamp aside it there Kevin?


----------



## theoldfart

Yup, three all toll. Just to the 1:00 of the left hole is a faint 9 and to the right of the x is an 11.


----------



## Brit

It might be a broken hand saw Kevin, but what a lovely panel saw it is waiting to become.


----------



## theoldfart

My thoughts exactly Andy. Building a Dutch tool chest this summer, it should fit in quite nicely.


----------



## donwilwol

I've never seen a profile with the flatter sides on the handle like this. I can just barely make out the etch.


----------



## richardwootton

When was that thumbie made Don? Looks pretty darn good.


----------



## Brit

Late 1940s, early 1950s is my guess Don.


----------



## TobyC

*There are two other marks, a light 9 and a heavy 11 yet the saw is 3 1/2 ppi. Maybe resharpened?

BTW Toby is that ppi or tpi, some commie on another site was causing a ruckus about that!i*

PPI on Disstons, and the PPI mark on that saw is long gone, it would be just above the teeth on the heel, it's been filed away. Cant see the label screw very well, but it looks like 1878-88.

Looks like a perfectly sized panel saw to me, although I would increase the PPI to 9 or 10.

I say keep it and fix 'er up because you don't find many No. 9s out there, they're pretty rare, and it's a very useful size for the bench or the toolbox.


----------



## TobyC

Looks like 1940-1947, they were pretty flat by then, nothing like the earlier saws.

The good stuff is pre WW1, and pre 1900 is the best, in my opinion.


----------



## Brit

There is a similar looking tote on the Disstonian Institute's website: http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/d8page.html


----------



## donwilwol

Thanks Andy!!


----------



## planepassion

I'll bet your new thumby is going to cut nicely for you Toby. The blade looks like one of those shipwright saws.


----------



## TobyC

Not mine, Don's.


----------



## CampD

Good rust hunting for me this weekend also. Hit a Church Flea Market at the right time. Got a bunch of stuff in the "Rusty" $.50 bin.
Best was this Disston coping saw. Had a Chrome plating on it that was mostly gone. I was in such a hurry to clean them up that I didn't take before pic's.
This will become my shop user.


















And a really nice old pair of dividers, they where really rusty but cleaned up pretty nice.


----------



## waho6o9

We're having a Saw Swap

All are welcomed and with a 4 month time frame
this should be doable if you're so inclined.

http://lumberjocks.com/topics/61364


----------



## jordanp

Hey a buddy of mine is trying to sell a bunch of old tools.
Most of them are users thought I would show you the saws.
They are all distons. pm me if you interested. 








Most of these were recently (last few years) in use.. I noticed a couple of them were very sharp.


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## chrisstef

I dunno. Im gettin better but i still need to work on my skills a bit. All in all im happy to have salvaged a cool saw and its in better shape than when it came to me.


----------



## ErikF

Man, that is a cool looking saw! Nice job on the cleaning.


----------



## jordanp

Nice resto stef


----------



## ToddJB

Looks great to me, Stef. What are you not pleased with?


----------



## chrisstef

Thanks for the kudos fellas.

Todd - what disappointed me was that I wasn't able to get all the staining out of the handle and the plate didn't come out as nice as I had hoped. The front side ended up with some weird watermarks on it after I had cleaned the back. I might try and fall back on correct that. Once I got some finish on it I saw some curl in the handle and wished I could have made it more pronounced. Don't get me wrong, I did some good things. I saved the etch, I successfully repaired the horn and the finish on the handle it buttery smooth. By no means a waste of time but I just think I can do a little bit better is all.


----------



## ToddJB

For what it's worth, I think the handle came out great. Your horn repair is amazing and I like that there is still character in the handle. If you want a brand new looking saw Lowes has plenty. But water spots on the plate? Bush league, Stef - swinging from the short tees.


----------



## waho6o9

In case some folks missed the thread come join

the Saw Swap:

http://lumberjocks.com/topics/61364

Toby, Brad, Brit, and CampD come on and join up if you like
and have some fun.


----------



## CampD

Cleaned up another neat little item from the $.50 bid. Not a saw but a razor knife, plus its a stanley.
Stainless steel and plastic so gota be newer.


----------



## DonBroussard

My wife and I went to an estate sale this morning and I picked up this saw:










It's a 26" saw. Nothing spectacular but the horns on the tote are intact. Preliminary scrubbing suggests a lack of an etch. Also no stamp with the ppi in the usual spot at the heel.










The medallion says "Made in Germany". I haven't deciphered the letters on the bottom yet. Is it unusual for a German-made saw to have the medallion in English?

Comments are appreciated.


----------



## richardwootton

Don, that was very common on German made pocket knives like Boker, henkles and kissing crane among others. I don't know if that was due to the knives being made for export, but it was definitely a very common practice.


----------



## TobyC

Can't help with German saws, but here's it's brother.


----------



## DonBroussard

Thanks, Richard. I plan to put some more effort into cleaning up the medallion, so maybe some of the other letters will become a word or words.


----------



## theoldfart

Toby, picked this tote up today:


















Maybe 1850 to 1870? I am thinking about getting a new plate and spine for it, how big of a tenon saw would it have been?


----------



## TobyC

I'll leave that one for Andy.


----------



## TobyC

14 X 3 1/2 would be my guess.

What is that bit thing?


----------



## theoldfart

A brace bit extension. A Stanley no1 sweet heart 18".


----------



## TobyC

Very cool.


----------



## Brit

My guess, based on the hang angle, would be 12" Kevin.


----------



## theoldfart

Toby and Andy thanks.


----------



## Brit

Kevin - Can you take a photo looking straight on to the medallion side of the handle so I can more accurately gauge the hang angle? Three screws is most likely 14", but the hang angle appears to be unusual for a 14" Groves of that era.

In all honesty though, you could use that handle on a 12" saw with a 3" plate or as Toby said, 14" with a 3 1/2" plate.


----------



## theoldfart

Andy, busy making ice cream. i will post a pic a little latter.


----------



## summerfi

Kevin - for comparative purposes, this is my Groves that came with a 16" plate. I suspect your handle would work fine on anything from 12 to 16".


----------



## theoldfart

Better pics of the Groves tote


----------



## theoldfart

todays haul


----------



## chrisstef

Youre on a tear kevin!


----------



## Brit

Definitely 14" plate Kevin, but as Bob says, it would work on a 16" plate too.


----------



## theoldfart

Thanks Andy.

Stef, that 99's not shabby either!


----------



## WayneC

I need to go rust hunting with you Kevin. You coming back out this way anytime soon?


----------



## richardwootton

Way to be Kevin! I wish we had rust hunting around here worth a damn.


----------



## theoldfart

Wayne, be out there from mid October to mid November. 'Nother grandchild on the way.


----------



## lateralus819

So my wife bought me a LN tenon saw, filed rip.

I mainly wanted it for tenons. Will i be okay to use it for the shoulders? I assume if i do a knife line it will minimize tearout.


----------



## richardwootton

Jeez where do you guys find these tool buyin' wives? As far as cutting the shoulders I did it the other day with the saw filed rip that I got from Erik and it worked out fine, just a bit rougher cut than with a crosscut.


----------



## lateralus819

Lol. My wife is awesome. She's an artist, so she knows my love for woodworking.

She also knows, good tools, help the process. Plus I've been talking about a LN saw for a while! I was intending on her getting the dovetail and me buying the tenon saw, but she said "You said the $165 one" LOL.

I no longer use our income to buy tools, so i was surprised she was okay with it. Have to sell a lot of tools to buy my stuff!


----------



## richardwootton

Sounds like you've got a good woman there Lat.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Lat- congrats. I hate to say imo Xcut backsaws work ok for ripping, but rip saws don't work very well for Xcutting. You can give it a whirl and see what you think. Or you just may need to get that tapered LN Xcut saw too

It might be my fav saw in my till.


----------



## chrisstef

Id say that anything over 12 ppi would work just fine for crosscutting. Once you get into that 12-14 ppi range its super difficult to put any fleam on the filing to create a xcut profile. The bevel becomes almost microscopic. That's my 2 cents worth at least.


----------



## lumberjoe

I can't find any info on this saw I just picked up, but it it's in really nice shape.

Disston, 26" 8 PPI. Composite handle. The etch says National Hardware Special and appears to be from 1950.

Is this a D95?


----------



## TobyC

Looks like a D-111.


----------



## chrisstef

Might be a D-111 Joe? Maybe made for National Hardware? Is the hardware brass or nickel plated?

Edit - Damn you and your nimble fingers Toby


----------



## lumberjoe

Appears to be nickel plated. Worth giving it a good once over with the files or is this a wall hanger? The plate is dead straight.


----------



## chrisstef

http://www.antique-used-tools.com/disstonsaws.htm

http://edgetoolworks.wordpress.com/2011/02/16/finding-old-tool-treasures-disston-national-hardware-saw/

Limited research shows that that particular saw was made for the National Hardware Show in 1950. I think that makes it pretty cool.

EDIT - another link added


----------



## TobyC

*Another plastic handled saw from the 1950's is the D-111, made from nylon. It was the last model made in Philadelphia, before HK Porter moved production to Danville, Virginia in the late 1950's. Its shape differs only slightly from that of the D-95*










Here.


----------



## lumberjoe

Not bad for 5 bucks then! Now to get the black oxide off and clean it up


----------



## TobyC

Good job chrisstef!!!

Nice saw lumberjoe, clean 'er up, may have some collector value.


----------



## lumberjoe

This saw is getting put to work!


----------



## jordanp

Here are some more details on those saws

Disston 22" 12 TPI X cut panel saw

Disston 18" 15 TPI rip panel saw. Slight bend and some rust
(Thought this was an odd one never seen a 15 TPI rip panel saw)

Disston 26" 8 TPI X cut d8 (surface rust) slight bend near toe

Disston 16" backsaw 11-12 TPI X cut


----------



## lateralus819

Red, i will be getting a dovetail saw. Maybe a xcut too, not sure yet.


----------



## Mosquito

Got the tote fixed and plate drilled this evening…


----------



## summerfi

Looks pretty darn nice, Mos. Congrats on a superb saw build.


----------



## Mosquito

Thanks Bob. Just need to get some finish on it and I'll be good. Thinking I'll get a coat or two of Danish Oil on it in the next few days, and let it cure for a week and maybe hit it with some shellac after that. May just leave as Danish Oil for ease of maintenance too, we'll see. I did a coat of Danish Oil on some scrap of the Sapele and it looks good, and brings out a little of the grain in the curly maple diamond too


----------



## richardwootton

Great work there Mos! Did you blog the build?


----------



## Mosquito

I'm working on it, need to get the write up done, and get another video compiled and edited for the 3rd part, then get some final pictures done.

I started a blog for the first part, which was cutting and shaping the saw plate. Hope to get the 2nd part for the tote up later this week (if not today or tomorrow), and maybe the 3rd part next week, if I get ambitious
http://lumberjocks.com/Mosquito/blog/41118


----------



## NinjaAssassin

Mos, that's a thing of beauty. I watched the video you made. Awesome job, man.


----------



## Brit

Whoa Mos! - You go it goin' on dude. Looking forward to the blog posts.


----------



## Mosquito

Thanks guys. Here's a picture of the other side of the tote. I had accidentally drilled a 3/4" recess for the medallion on this side in a moment of stupid. Decided instead of scrapping it and starting over, I'd add an accent piece


----------



## bandit571

Stoned the teeth on the D-7 Lightweight saw, maybe it will cut a bit straighter. It was always "turning" to the right, causing a Jam after a while. Have a few Pine 1×4s to crosscut, might be a decent test?

As for the Disston D(no hyphen)8 The teeth down near the toe are well worn, almost to the "gum line". Almost like the Farmer used only the first 6", and never used the rest of the saw.









Ugly set of choppers. Maybe breast this saw? Don't really want to joint down the entire length @26", either. 
Don't really need to make it a panel saw either.


----------



## Brit

Mos - You've could have passed it off as an ambidextrous saw.


----------



## chrisstef

I say give it a shot bandit. You really aint got much to lose in my opinion. You may need to alter youre stroke a little bit which might be hard. A guy of your age probably has that down pretty pat by now


----------



## bandit571

Apparently, this was the first skew back model Disston made. I'll vise the toe end up, and joint a new line down that way. Try for a curve a bit, creating a breasting at the end.

The good news? The D-7 Lightweight saw that I stoned just the right side of the teeth, now cuts FAST, and STRAIGHT to the line. 8 pointer does cut a bit rough, though









This saw is the same age as me…....ANTIQUE???


----------



## bandit571

And, both saws have a faint, but readable etch. Might be keepers?

I think they cost MAYBE $2 each…


----------



## Brit

Bandit - If it is a D8, it should already be breasted unless someone has filed it out over the years.


----------



## bandit571

Tooth line is almost touching the etch on the D8. Safe to say it has been sharpened once or twice in 140 years. The trouble area is out near the toe, rest looks great. This is the saw that I repaired the tote on









Farmer J.D. Hogg must have been cutting something hard, and only using the first six inches or so. Must have broke the tote, and stowed the remains away..


----------



## DanielS

I've been looking for a decent backsaw for a while. I'm never comfortable paying too much for an unseen saw off of ebay, so it took some time. I found this saw at an antique store last weekend. It's a 12 in 12 ppi from 1871-75. Someone filed the teeth almost completely off. There's no etch left. After sharpening, it cuts pretty well.


----------



## DanielS

Multiple post


----------



## DanielS

Multiple post


----------



## Tim457

I'm not sure, but I think maybe posting it one more time would be better, Daniel. 

If the plate is straight, it looks like it'll be a good user for you. The handle is in good shape for sure.


----------



## richardwootton

Good find! Good find! Good find! Sorry, I couldn't resist.


----------



## DocBailey

Third time's a charm …


----------



## donwilwol

Jamie's got a stutter and nice new backsaw.


----------



## DanielS

Troubles with my phone. I'll try posting the pictures from my pc.


----------



## donwilwol

my phone does the same thing.


----------



## Pezking7p

Gents, having some trouble with my 14" backsaw getting the set right. I'm using a stanley 42w set…is there anyway to compare the numbers on the set wheel with other sets? I set it at 5 and then 6, I'd hate to have to set it too many more times so I'm hoping for some input. I'm a little bit gunshy on too much set because I accidentally put away too much set on my first saw and had to re-file the whole thing. Any help is appreciated.


----------



## TobyC

The numbers are useless except for reference.


----------



## donwilwol

*Pezking7p* the answer is use a micrometer. Use the numbers as a reference.

Here is an excerpt from http://www.vintagesaws.com/library/ftj/spring97/spring97.html. I know Andy covered this in one of his blogs, but I couldn't find it quick.

"The actual amount of set applied to the blade is measured with a micrometer A good method to use is to measure the thickness of the blade just above the teeth to get an idea of how thick the blade is without any set. Unless a saw has just had new teeth cut, it will have at least some set. Let's say we measure the saw in question and the blade is .035 inches thick. A good rule of thumb is to increase the thickness of the blade by 20% for dry hardwoods, and 25-30% for softwoods. So, our .035 blade would need to be increased to .042 inches for use in hardwoods, or up to .046 inches for softwoods and wood that is wet. This is just a guideline, but it is a good place to start until experience with your particular set is gained. After setting a few saws and receiving feedback from the work, you'll define a very narrow range on your set which produces good results time after time without going through the hassle of measuring your blade and doing calculations. It should be noted that blades with constant thickness will often require even more set. Sometimes so much set is required that it takes forever to make a cut due to the extreme amount of material that must be removed. It is for this reason that constant thickness saws are best avoided. Fortunately, 90% of the saws that are encountered are taper ground. "


----------



## bandit571

The Disston D-7 Lightweight saw has been stone on the right side of the teeth. Amounted to three swipes on the right side, and one on the left side. Still lots of set to the teeth, but now at least, it will cut nice and straight.









That is a 8/4×8/4 red oak blank being cut into a couple leg blanks. Note the pencil line? Took just a minute or two to cut through the blank. Cuts like butter, now. Though 8ppi might be a bit rough for a crosscut saw.


----------



## ErikF

I think I finally have the split nuts and bolts down to a science. I'm doing my first run of the improved design and am able to offer them in brass and copper. Let me know if you guys need anything. 


















I have to give credit to the old Logan









Not much building lately but I did finish this saw last week. G. Ebony - 12"


----------



## richardwootton

That 12" is freaking sweet Erik!


----------



## ToddJB

Those are beautiful, Erik. Great job man.

Do the numbers indicate the number of strokes?


----------



## ErikF

The numbers show the depth of the cut in inches. I wish I could cut that deep with two saw strokes!


----------



## shampeon

Nice work, Erik. That copper sure looks spectacular.


----------



## chrisstef

Bravo Erik.


----------



## CampD

Nice work!
I may be in the market.


----------



## TobyC

Those copper ones are cool!









Do a blog on these, so I can link to it and show others.


----------



## lateralus819

Father's day gift from my son and wife. Cuts like a dream!


----------



## richardwootton

Is that the L-N tenon saw? It sure is pretty.


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## lateralus819

Yes it is the 14 inch back saw and it works flawlessly. Very Comfortable. Great to look at too. Going to make a sheath for it too.


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## Brit

Very nice saw. Congrats!


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## BigRedKnothead

Nice Lat. Those LN sharpening jobs are somethin ehh? Their saws are a pretty darn good value imo.


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## lateralus819

Yeah, for the money it is not so bad.

I cutout a piece of suede for a sheath. My mother in law is going to sew it and put some snaps in. Dovetail saw is next.


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## DanKrager

Lat, I don't know how suede is processed, but if it is like most leather, the tanning is done with acid. The residual effect is to rust any steel enclosed within, sooner or later.

The only way around that is to use vegetable tanned leather. I don't know that you can tell the difference by looking or smelling or feeling, but there is a difference. I'd sure hate to see you pull that beautiful saw from the sheath to find a layer of rust on it some day.

DanK


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## Mosquito

Somehow found some time this weekend


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## richardwootton

Way to go Mos, that bad boy looks great! Might I ask how you finished the handle?


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## Mosquito

I used 2 applications of Danish Oil, applied by cloth, let that dry for 4 days. 
Then I sanded to 400 grit then applied the first coat of shellac by cloth. 
I sanded that back to 400 grit and applied a second coat of shellac. 
Once that was dry I sanded with 1000 grit, applied paste wax with #0000 steel wool, and buffed with a cotton rag


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## ToddJB

Dang, Mos. Beautiful job.


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## richardwootton

Thanks for the rundown, I've yet to use shellac, but that turned out damn well. I used a similar approach on my Disston D8, however I just used a Danish oil (I think it was actually Formby's Tung Oil) and applied 4 coats with roughly 24 hours apart, buffing with 1000 to 1500 grit paper after it was almost dry. After the last application I buffed with 0000 steel wool, then waxed and buffed with a soft cotton cloth and it came out with a really nice sheen.


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## upchuck

Lat-
I agree with all of the warnings offered by Dan Krager. I don't know enough about how any piece of leather is tanned to feel comfortable using leather for tool storage. That saw is too beautiful to risk.
chuck


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## Tim457

I'd heard the same warnings about the acids in leather rusting tools. Dan, you're saying vegetable tanned leather doesn't do that?

Most that turned out awesome. I don't have decent rasps and I'm a little concerned about my ability to carve a decent handle rather than using rasps. We'll see I guess.


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## Mosquito

*Tim*, I've really only got 1 decent rasp, a gramercy handle makers. Everything else is a cheap rasp from the hardware store, and some regular files


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## Mosquito

Just posted part 2 of my small panel saw videos to my blog that shows how I shaped the tote


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## Mosquito

double post, sorry


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## DanKrager

Right, Tim, vegetable tanned leather doesn't cause rust like the acid tanned certainly will, but like any other container, can permit it. If the VT leather is kept soaked in Neatsfoot oil, it might discourage moisture damage to the steel. I lost a very nice sentimental knife to a bad case of rust caused by the sheath it was stored in for many years. After that unhappy experience I asked around the leather crafters shops and found out why.

I bought some (very expensive) Camelia oil for rust prevention and after a rust free spring in a shop that tends to be very wet in this high humidity area (avg about 80%) I've become a believer.

DanK


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## lateralus819

Must be LN uses vegetable tanned?

I ended up making a guard for the teeth out of maple.


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## upchuck

Lat-
Maple is good. Maybe even best…food safe and all. How do you attach the guard to the plate?


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## lateralus819

Drilled two holes in the bottom. Sanded the side of a Dowell to wedge the suede In the hole. Wrap once around and secure.


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## BigRedKnothead

Nice. Now you've got me wondering what kind of leather LN uses for their cases. I have to say, I've bought some used LN stuff that had been in their leather cases for awhile…..and the tools were a bit rusty. Hard tellin if it was the leather or neglect.


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## chrisstef

Again with the plane slipper Red …. theres only one answer for that:


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## donwilwol

I would think any kind of case that has the potential of trapping moister between itself and the steel would cause issues.


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## lateralus819

I think I like the cap I made better. Easy to take off, and it protects the teeth.


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## Brit

Confuscious he say - "A saw that's used, collects no rust".


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## summerfi

I made my first folded brass back tonight. It was mostly an experiment to see if I could do it. It's just a little guy, 1/2" wide out of 1/16" brass. Too small for most backsaws, but perfect for a little round handled dovetail saw which I plan to make at some point. It has some marks from my vise jaws, so I'll have to figure out how to pad them before I make another one.

I bought a cheap Harbor Freight bending brake, but it's too flimsy to bend brass thick enough for a regular backsaw. I'm not sure what I'll do, but I need to find a solution before I can make my set of saws.


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## bandit571

Maybe a metal block with a "V" milled down the center?

Then, find a Blacksmith's Hardee. Use it to start the brass to fold into the metal block's V.

I think the term is Swaging. And then you become a Master Swagger.

Once the V is formed, then you can close it up. Maybe some brass or copper plates over the vise's jaws? Like a Machinist uses?

Worth a try?


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## ErikF

Bob, I haven't done any bending so this may be far fetched…you may be able to make the bend if you ran a V shaped router bit down the center of a thicker piece. It would create a weak point for the bend and the V slot may be able to clear out enough side waist to prevent binding when you get farther into the fold. I haven't cut brass with a router but 360 brass cuts very easily, especially with a few shallow passes. I may have just suggested something dangerous but i think it would be easily accomplished on a router table.


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## summerfi

Bandit - brass or copper pads on the vise jaws is what I was thinking too.

Erik - good idea. I've seen that suggested somewhere else on the web, and I'll have to give it a try.


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## chrisstef

New iteration of a saw vice made from soft maple is almost complete. Im just waiting on some 1/16" neoprene rubber to line the laws with. Its 30" long and 10" tall. I made this one substantially shorter in height so I could sit down and sharpen. While its a little bit harder to see the tops of the teeth its a hell of a lot easier on the back.


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## summerfi

Nice Stef. Curly maple even.


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## chrisstef

Thanks and ya never know what youre gonna find in the racks Bob. I found a diamond in the rough. I will say that it clamps down on the plate a ton better than my last one made of MDF with pine jaws. Less vibrations and smoother strokes with the file makes me much happier.


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## summerfi

I continued to experiment with making folded brass backs today. Like most things, it's a learning process. I started with a 3/32" thick piece of 12" x 12" brass. One thing I learned is that you can cut brass on a table saw with a fine-toothed non-ferrous blade if you feed it real slow. I cut a 1 3/4" wide strip and then annealed it with a propane torch so it would bend easier. I learned that if you make even a slight bend in the brass of, say, 15 or 20 degrees, that is enough to get it started bending further in the vise. My flimsy HF brake was able to accomplish that. I made some vise jaw pads out of about 16 ga. copper, but that didn't pan out. You really have to reef on the vise to get the brass bent all the way, and the copper was just too thin. The vise still left marks on the brass, but fortunately my 6" x 48" belt sander got those out.

For the next back, I cut a groove about 1/32" deep in the brass with the table saw. It bent a little easier and the bend was nice and crisp. Brass hardens when worked, so you have to anneal it to keep it from tearing where it bends. On the first back, I annealed it when I started and again when it was bent 90 degrees. On the second back, I was afraid the thinner section would tear when the two opposing sides of the groove began pinching each other, so I annealed it a third time before the final closing. I made some jaw pads out of black locust for the second back and it worked much better. There was no marring at all except where I held it with pliars on the end when it was hot.

In the second picture you can see the different profiles of the two backs. The one on the left had the groove, the right one had no groove and is more rounded. These backs aren't perfect, but overall I'm pleased with how they turned out. I wouldn't hesitate to use either one on a saw. It's a lot of work though, and I think I would buy them instead of make them if they were commercially available. TGIAG is supposed to start selling them soon, and I'll be curious to see what the prices will be.


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## ToddJB

They look great, Bob. Outstanding work.


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## donwilwol

a question. Is there an advantage over cutting or bending the backs?

Edit, cutting the slot.


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## summerfi

Don - Others may be better able to answer your question, but here's my take. First and foremost, folded backs were the traditional way of doing it, and being the traditionalist that I am, they are simply my personal preference. Beyond that, the differences are probably slight. A folded back allows for some "adjustment" of the plate/back union, and that may be important if the plate ever develops a wave. It would also be easier to replace a worn out plate in a folded back, since plates are typically epoxied in slotted backs. Both methods, however, can make excellent saws.


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## ErikF

Dang, Bob. Those folded backs look great. Does the back stay straight during the final bending or is there final shaping needed after the fold?


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## summerfi

Erik, the first two backs I made tended to want to curve a little in the vertical plane (if the saw is held upright). It wasn't too hard to straighten them. The third one (with the groove) remained pretty straight. I don't know if the groove had anything to do with that. In the horizontal plane they all remained pretty straight.


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## Brit

Don - Here's my take on it.

*FOLDED BACK* 
Advantages:

The plate can be replaced easily
The plate can be straightened easily if it develops a wave
Looks more traditional which some people prefer

Disadvantages:

Not particularly easy to fold accurately if you're making the back and will probably need some refinement after being bent to ensure it is truly straight in both planes
The plate can slip in the back if you're not careful

*SLOTTED BACK*
Advantages:

The plate can be glued or rivetted into the back, or if you press the slot together after it is cut a slotted back behaves much like a folded back and you can fit the plate in the slot as you would a folded back and let friction hold it in place. It still doesn't look the same though IMO.
The slot can be cut relatively easily by most hobbyists
The back will likely remain straight when making a saw

Disadvantages:

Not traditional
If glued or riveted, it can be difficult to replace the plate should the need arise

At the end of the day though, both methods can produce excellent saws.


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## Tim457

Bob those are looking fantastic. I can see why people like the look of copper, but brass looks really nice for tools in my mind.


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## Brit

*Bob* - Great work on the folded backs. Did you close up the toe end of the back at all? I've noticed that when you look at a traditional folded back the handle end looks much like the back on the right in your photo, but somehow they closed the toe end up without it affecting how the back looks along its length. Not sure how they managed that. Maybe they spread the brass with a hammer or a file. Any ideas how to achieve that?


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## Brit

...and the tote looks fantastic too Bob.


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## chrisstef

I disagree Andy. It all looks terrible. Man of your statute should user a finer material than brass. Send me your stock and ill use it to make peasant saws.

Could those brass backs be left long and filed closed Andy? I was just looking at one of my backsaws and the slit looks fairly open, not like it was pinched but kinda rounded off.

Great work Bob and i learned me a lil somethin about the subtleties. Good question don.


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## summerfi

Andy - No, I didn't attempt to close the toe end, but that could be accomplished before the saw is assembled. I imagine a press of some sort would be the way to go, and it would only need to be done in the last 1/4" or so. Most of the saws I've seen have the toe end rounded a little and then a chamfer on each side. That would eliminate any marks from the press.

I folded these in a heavy 4" metal-working vise, but a press device the full length of the back would be a much better way to go. There is more open space inside the fold than I would prefer. I turned the vise handle until I was afraid of breaking the vise, and still the two sides would not come any closer together. It takes more force than one would think to bend these that last little bit. It was a fun learning experience though.


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## Brit

Yeah I know it takes a lot of force Bob. When I was making a prop for one of my wifes charity functions, I had cause to go and pick up some steel plate from a local fabricators that they agreed to donate to the cause. While they were cutting it for me, I stood watching a couple of men using some big hydraulic breaks to bend some steel plate. I thought at the time that if I want some folded backs to make some saws, I'll just get them to do it for me. Problem solved. )

On the other hand, buying a kit from Isaac at Blackburn tools is also attractive because Isaac has already worked out what weight each back in his saw kits is best for each saw.

Decisions. Decisions. Off to bed now. Got to be up in 2 1/2 hours.


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## kwigly

Got this saw at an auction this week, because it looked old and interesting, outbidding the opposition with my $2 bid (could've got 6 other saws, common D8s and such, as a lot for $3)

Looks like an early Disston 12 with its recessed medallion. The blade is straight, but rusty!, and the handle is good except for a chip under the top horn and a bit of paint splatter.




























Got it home and checked the medallion against those shown on the Disstonian institute, and it looks like the 1876-77 medallion without any dots/stars between "Disston" and "Philada" 
First step is to take it apart, and sure enough the screws are the skinny early type from 1876/77, (except for the bottom screw that's a fatter modern replacement, with the saw plate hole drilled out to accommodate it, and the burr on this hole making it a bit difficult to remove the handle).










The plate is stamped under the handle with "X" and "C". The "X" confirms its the correct plate for a No 12 saw, but I'm not sure what the "C" means.

Next step will be to see how well it cleans up.


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## TobyC

kwigly,

1876-77, no stars, no apostrophe, no patent date, on the label screw.

And no split nuts.


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## chrisstef

Good score kwigley!


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## ErikF

That's a beautiful saw. Good luck with the restoration.

For those of you making your own totes. What method are you using to cut out the pocket for the back (backsaws) and how are you cutting the slot for the plate?


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## kwigly

Cleaned up the blade of the No 12 a bit, using my usual method; 
First; scrape off the rust lumps with a sharpened putty knife (sharpened like a chisel, although its not super sharp, and with the corners rounded a bit so they don't leave tracks) I used it bevel up first, then bevel down to scrape a bit deeper.










Then dry sand with a bit of a sanding belt, something like 60 grit I think, which gets down to seeing the metal below the rust. You can usually see if there's an etch at this step, and I was happy to see an etch appearing out of the rust dust, (like magic ! )










Then dry sand with a finer grit (maybe 120) to smooth things out a bit. Then the really messy bit, sanding with wet/dry 400 grit lubricated with WD40, using a hardwood sanding block.










Clean off with a rag, and more WD40 (or whatever liquid you have) and admire the etch










I'm happy with this result, maybe lazy, but this uniform blotchy result looks sorta natural to me and I've found if I try to clean further I usually start getting shiny areas and not shiny areas that looks wierd overall.

next step will be to clean up the handle a bit and re-assemble the saw


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## Tim457

Wow I can't believe you got an etch that readable from a saw plate that looked that far gone. Some I've tried with less rust had a worse etch.


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## bandit571

Next time, try a little trick of mine:

1/4 sheet sander, sitting on a purple scratch pad. Have a piece of sandpaper mounted on the sander, to maintain contact with the 3M Purple pad. Just to get the rust off, of course.


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## bandit571

Dungeon time:

Grabbed a long flat file, and jointed a few teeth. While the saw was in the vise, took a file to the "new" teeth. Set it aside









D8 crosscut. NOW it works like new. Cleaned two other saws









This being my go-to crosscut D-7. Cleaned it up a bit, then hang them up
Next to get cleaned up









Pheonix Warranted. Beyond that, unsure, but it works nice. And lastly









It has 5.5 ppi, and a skew back. Will need a bit of attention today…...you think?


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## kwigly

Tim; 
Yes, I got lucky with the etch. Fortunately a lot of the old Disstons had a good deep etch. Strangely though, I didn't find any PPI number stamped on the heel of this blade

Bandit; 
Thanks for the scratch-pad-on-a-sander tip (my previous scratch pad efforts, by hand, haven't been as successful as sandpaper)

Finished cleaning up the No 12;
Cleaned up the handle with soapy water and a scrubby to remove the dirt (used a toothbrush for the deep crevices), then picked off the paint splatter with the pocket knife (the white spots popped off, but the grey paint needed scraping to remove).









After the handle had dried, there were some patchy bits of old original finish showing on the handle which I didn't bother to remove, and luckily it all blended in well under the shellac that I put on. Rubbed down the shellac with fine steel wool to dull the bright shine, and coated with paste wax 
[on beech handles I sometimes use boiled Linseed oil, but I don't use BLO on apple handles as I find it soaks in and darkens the wood too much]
Used some dish detergent, and a small brass brush in a drill, to clean the medallion face, and buffed the other screw ends. (some wierd casting marks on the medallion)









Used a bit of wood filler to smooth out the chip under the top horn (should've spliced in a new bit of applewood to do a propper job)

Sharpened and waxed the blade and assembled everything.
Looks a lot better, and cuts great too !


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## bandit571

The OLde Rip Saw has new teeth!









it took about ten strokes or so to get down that far. NICE!

Guess I won't be needing that set?









just an old 5.5 rip saw. 27" long.


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## ToddJB

That 12 looks amazing


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## waho6o9

Slotting a saw tote
http://thesawblog.com/?p=1896

Matt Cianci's excellent blog shows how to slot the tote.

It works well. Thanks Matt.


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## summerfi

I bought this big ugly saw at an auction today as part of a lot of 4 saws. The saw intrigues me for a few reasons. It has a heavy plate and a nib, so I knew it was old. I just didn't know who made it. I couldn't see a maker's stamp on the plate, so I figured there was an etch hiding under the grime and rust, and I figured it was probably American made. The plate is 30" long. I don't need a 30" saw, but I've never had one, so this was something new. My best guess was this is a Disston No. 7.










When I got the saw home, I started sanding for an etch, and sure enough old Henry D's name popped out. The etch is light but unmistakable as a Disston. Above the word Disston, though, is the word Extra, and I can barely make out the words London Spring lower down. This rules out a No. 7. Try as I might, though, I cannot make out what number saw this is. With the Extra and London Spring, it could be a No. 9, 12, 99, or possibly something else.










Upon removing the homemade handle (obviously that guy hadn't refined his handle making skills), I saw an X with a 3 below it stamped on the plate. The X stands for Extra, but I haven't a clue what the 3 means.










I went to the Distonian Institute for further hints on what the saw may be. I looked at screw placement and shape of the heel. Based on these clues I believe, but am not sure, that the saw is a No. 9. The No. 9 has a curved heel, but less so than other London Spring models. The 9 and 12 have similar screw placement, but the 99 is a little different.










Another interesting thing about this saw is I cannot see an S on the end of SONS. It is possible that the S is simply worn off, but HENRY DISSTON & SON does seem like it would be symmetrically oriented on the etch. The bottom most words on the etch are Patent Ground. After 1900, trademark wording was added below that, so I know this is a 19th century saw. Perhaps it is from the one son period, but I may never know.

It will be fun cleaning this saw up and getting it back in action. I'll have to either find an appropriate handle or make a new one, and that will likely have to wait a while.


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## Brit

Good detective work Bob. Funny how an old rusty saw can produce so much brain activity isn't it?


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## donwilwol

Very cool acquisition Bob.


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## chrisstef

Lots of good stuff here gang. Shiny teeth on the bandit saw, the toned down floral carving on kwiglys 12, and bobs diamond in the rough. Love me some saw postings.


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## kwigly

Bob,

Interesting saw plate, but the curse of the partial etch to make you go cross-eyed !

Check the size of the holes in the plate. Old split nuts, from the "one son" era, had smaller diameter screw threads, and the holes would have been only about 5/32 inch (of course they could have been enlarged later for the "new" handle if they're bigger now)


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## summerfi

Kwigly - The screw holes are indeed 5/32", so this saw is from the split nut era, i.e. pre-1876 according to Distonian Institute. I can make the split nuts, but I'll have to search for an appropriate medallion. If it's a one son, those are scarce as hen's teeth. I've been searching for one for another saw already for nearly a year.


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## summerfi

"Funny how an old rusty saw can produce so much brain activity isn't it?" - Andy
"the curse of the partial etch to make you go cross-eyed !" - kwigly

Cross-eyed and crazy, that's me! I've been agonizing over this etch for a couple hours this evening-different lighting, different magnification. The etch is not exactly like anything on the Disstonian Institute, but it's close enough that I've made some conclusions. This is a No. 9; I've spotted the elusive number finally. It's not a one son. This puts it later than 1871, while the small screw holes puts it earlier than 1876. So I have a saw made between 1871-1876. That's my story, and even if I'm wrong, I'm betting no one will ever know. ;-)


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## DonBroussard

Bob-At least the medallion will be easier to find than the one Son medallion. Nice forensic work.


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## summerfi

Here is the little Disston No. 70 dovetail I picked up at a yard sale last Friday. It is similar sized to the No. 68 round handle saw, but much rarer. The blade is 10" and it is 17 ppi. It sure was fun to sharpen. Talk about cross-eyed.

*Before*










*After*



















And here is a late model Disston D-8 that I picked up at the auction on Saturday. Not an old saw, but worth posting because of it's condition. I don't believe it had been sharpened since it was new, and probably has never been used. A light touch up was all it took to sharpen the teeth; literally 10 minutes. The entire cleanup was only about an hour. This saw was made between 1947 and 1955.










Both these saws will be coming soon to an ebay near you.


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## ToddJB

Bob, that D8 is mind-blowingly clean. Unbelievable


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## Brit

Looking good Bob. Shame about the staining on the No.70. Looks like something was spilt on it and not cleaned off.


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## richardwootton

Wow Bob those both look awesome!


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## richardwootton

How old is that number 70?


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## donwilwol

Bob, I picked up a Disston 70 a few years ago. Its my go to dovetail saw.


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## summerfi

Andy - The stuff on the No. 70 is red rust. It is indeed a shame someone allowed this to happen. It's also a shame someone drilled two holes in the plate. The saw would have been in terrific condition were it not for those two things.

Richard - The No. 70 first appeared in the 1918 Disston catalog. I believe it was produced until the 1940's. Like all Disston saws, the quality went down over the years. My saw appears to be a later version.

Don, your saw is much older than mine, and much better quality.


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## DanielS

I got a Disston No 7 a few months ago. I've just gotten around to finishing it. I stripped the handle and finished it with danish oil and paste wax.



























I hope this only adds one time.


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## DanielS

Multipost


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## Tim457

Bob, what a save on that 70. It's a shame that whatever spilled on it was allowed to sit there, but you cleaned it up nice.


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## Tim457

No such luck Daniel. I didn't even see it until after my post above, but the watch list said there were two posts before that.

Nice saw though. Pierced tongue and everything.


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## DanielS

Thanks Tim. I guess that is the last time I use my phone to post. I went through my old pictures, but apparently didn't take any befores. It was covered in black dirt and rust. I passed over it the first time I saw it because it seemed too bad to mess with. I still need to hit the teeth one last time, but it seems like a keeper. I'm always amazed how an etch will look good under a layer of rust on some saws and others it is completely gone.


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## bandit571

Ok, have a couple tree limbs that are hitting the house. So, that means I need some sort of SAW to cut the branches off. Found candidate, I think









There was just a single bolt and a wing nut in the tote, So I picked up a parts saw and a froze up Eggbeater drill. $10 for all three item. Went to dig out the three bolts in the parts saw…...they just spun around. WTF? Handle was junk anyway, so a chisel to chisel a little less wood to deal with, and a couple small visegrips. First one came out with a twist and a yank….NO THREADS! They looked like bolts, but they are rivets? Hmmm. Medallion one included. And it was a disston. Brass one, the other two rivets were steel. Hmm.

Ok, got the wing nut and bolt off, and the extra handle, too. Pulled the tote off…..something ain't quite right here, either









Plate does have the three holes like the tote, but it's holes are in a line. Weird. Toe is toast, anyway









This saw has been hanging in a barn for a LONG time.









It is just to trim a couple tree limbs back, anyway. Maybe just bolt it up, drill two new holes to match the tote?

As for the parts saw? Trashed, a true FUBAR saw.

The Eggbeater with the frozen gear? The G.M CO MFG. INC of L. V. CITY N.Y. is all cleaned and oiled up. Spins free as can be, now. Debating whether to repaint it back to it's RED colour…..


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## theoldfart

Moving over here from the S O S thread

Stef


















Two


Code:


 4", one each

 5", 6" and 8"


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## chrisstef

Id say youve got 2 4" xslims good for 12-14 ppi saws, the 5" looks reg tapered not sure how well it would work without fondling it, the 6" looks like a slim good for 8-9 ppi, and the 8 maybe a slim taper again not sure how good it would be without seeing it in person.

Hopefully some of the other guys can chime in as well. My info might be a lil sketchy.


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## chrisstef

Id drill new holes peovided the new holes dont overlap any of the existing holes bandito.


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## bandit571

Two new holes drilled, using a Masonary bit from Wallie world. Third hole was for the medallion, and it did line right up. medallion say Warranted Superior, BUT, it also has a Keystone emblem. Medallion IS brass, all else is steel. Got the tote sanded off, "bolts" have been driven home. Etra Handle re-installed.

Almost ready to go cut a tree limb or three..

Film in a bit, have down load a couple pics….


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## bandit571

And, here tis









This is one BIG saw









Almost ready to go to work. Didn't find a setting tool for it, though.


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## Tim457

What's the size of the limb that needs that monster? It is a cool saw though, I've been looking for a one man crosscut like that.

Here's the US Forest Service Crosscut Saw Manual. They have a section on setting the teeth and they recommend hammer setting. Still takes some specialized tools. Lot of skill involved in filing the teeth and swaging the rakers too.
http://www.fs.fed.us/eng/pubs/pdfpubs/pdf77712508/pdf77712508dpi72.pdf


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## Wally331

Man, lots going on here lately! I haven't been doing much with saws lately, had a bunch of commission work to finish first. Anyways I was able to finish two backsaws and also finally got around to my no. 12.

I stripped the paint with a bix paint stripper. It worked a charm, but I discovered that he saw painter had used a random orbital sander to clean the plate. Anyways with a bit of sanding it turned out beautifully. Looks a lot cleaner in real life than in the pictures.

Tote was card scraped and sanded. I also repaired both horns and then stained it with 3 parts cherry 1 part dark mahogany stain. I think the color looks great but its not totally done. Still working on some replacement nuts and whatnot.









Also finished a dovetail saw and a sash or tenon saw. Dovetail is 14ppi 9 inches. Sash is 11-12 PPI at 12 inches. I think its by far my best saw yet. Thanks for looking anyways


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## ErikF

Wally- the saws look great. Whats the thickest plate you have used so far, anything over .032"?


----------



## richardwootton

Wally those look fantastic. What wood did you use on the dovetail and tenon saw totes?


----------



## NinjaAssassin

Wally, I'm continually amazed with your work. I hope to purchase a saw from you one day.


----------



## bandit571

Question for this group:

As part of the $10 deal, a saw was bought as just parts. Plate didn't look worth the trouble to even clean up.

Until









Straight back, no hanger hole 8ppi. This had a WS w/Keystone medallion. New handle is an old Pattern Handle I had sitting around, doing nothing anyway. Well since the Rivet/bolts are now a part of the Bucking saw, I will need to find a few saw bolts and a WS medallion, somewhere….









This is how it looked when it first got here….NASTY little saw. However, not a single dent, or kink in the plate, teeth might need a little work, but none are broken. Might be a decent enough crosscut saw….


----------



## summerfi

That saw could make a decent user, Bandit, if put back in working condition. You can buy used saw screws on ebay, or new silver ones through Amazon.


----------



## summerfi

Got me a medallion for my Disston No. 9! I would use the whole handle, but it's a little earlier than my saw, and the screw hole positions are a little different. I'll need to make a new handle, but that's not all bad.


----------



## bandit571

Couple of saws picked up today. Both may be "parts saws"









On the top: Brass hardware. Medallion saw Diamond Edge. Tote does have some carving to it. Blade does have some sort of etch. Blade is more or less ….shot. Big old crack about six inches back from the toe. What teeth are left are "Cows & Calves), with the tooth line in a big curve.

On the Bottom. WS tote and hardware, Steel. Fitted to the rebuild saw I was working on









Steel WS medallion has an eagle on it.









Test drove the saw ( the second one) will need some teeth work, but does cut straight. Steel bolts. Oiled plate and tote









Anyone need a DE set of bolts??


----------



## bandit571

Diamond Edge saw?

Skew back, has an etch of some sort. Brass saw bolts are the small diameter kind. medallion is just under 7/8" in diameter.

Tote "feels" like an Atkins one. three lines of "wheat carvings".

I can see parts of an etch, just can't quite read it. Plate is in VERY BAD shape. You name a flaw, it just might be in thsi plate. Tote has ONE partial crack near the bottom horn. A little rough around the edges, but not too bad. Tote and bolts might be worth saving…..

But…a Diamond Edge saw?


----------



## summerfi

Diamond Edge tools were sold by Shapleigh Hardware of St. Louis. Here is an article on their history.


----------



## bandit571

Now, imagine that same logo as a Brass Medallion. Right down to the arrow through the DE .

The DIAMOND and EDGE above and below that logo.

Still haven't made out too much of the etch. Looks like a lady's head, something about it being as perfect metalugically as can…...

Can barely make out a DE logo in the etch. LARGE one, too.

Not sure WHAT to do with this saw…yet.


----------



## summerfi




----------



## TobyC

Hey Wally,

Give us a good pic of the handle only, please.


----------



## chrisstef

Good stuff Bob. Them little recessed medallions can be tricky to find for a decent price.

I got a question for the group. Ive got a small 20" harvey peace that im in the process of removing all the teeth from and need to decide how to file it. It was originally a 10 ppi rip? saw (its that bad). Considering ive got both full size and panel size rips and crosscuts, does anyone feel it would be useful to file this one hybrid at 11 ppi?

Ill be utilizing the spacing template from blackburn's website.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Love me some DE…


----------



## summerfi

Stef - Your Peace is no doubt different, but mine has a rather thick plate. At 11 ppi, the plate would have been as thick as the teeth are high (but mine is more like 6 or 7 ppi, can't remember off hand). Also, the teeth are quite brittle on mine - something to watch for.


----------



## chrisstef

Bob, this ones stamped at 10 ppi from the factory i believe. I dont have a mic to check it but when you say the plate being the same thickness as the height of the teeth whats the detriment?


----------



## summerfi

It would be like having a paring chisel with the blade as thick as it is wide. Just out of proportion for good cutting. Yours originally being a 10 point, though, it shouldn't be a problem.


----------



## chrisstef

Now im following you. Appreciate the info brother. Ill be sure to tuck that tidbit into a corner of my brain that hasnt been chemically altered.


----------



## Wally331

I think a found something bobs gonna like….


























It is a j. Taylor brothers 28.25 inch rip saw. Old old old British with split nuts. I have been looking for a British saw for about two years now so I may have overpaid a bit…. I think in this condition it was every bit worth it. $45


----------



## summerfi

Ohhh Wally!!! Yep, I like. Did you find it locally? It's worth every penny of $45 and more. Taylor Brothers operated 1849-1915. Can't wait to see that saw restored.


----------



## bandit571

Did a saw RESCUE today! Four PAINTED BADLY saws were at one yard sale. One was even a D-7, maybe an 8, too. $3 for the four of them.

Will be stripping paint for a few days, two saws were even painted on BOTH sides!

GRRRRRRRRRRR! Time for the BP Meds!

As for the DE saw…we'll see….


----------



## summerfi

Pics bandit. Four saws for $3 is cool.


----------



## bandit571

NOT these saws

PAINTED saws? UGLY Paint job saws.

Will get them out of the car in a bit. Might want to tell Ethel to cover her eyes, first…


----------



## bandit571

Ethel got her eyes covered?

Here goes









and the other side









Remember, just $3 four this pile of…....saws


----------



## racerglen

Sheesh Bandit, a score on price fer sure, but how much for paint stripper ?
;-)


----------



## bandit571

$7.97 + tax at Walmart….


----------



## summerfi

Looks like a couple of decent saws in the bunch, Bandit. And the artwork…priceless.


----------



## racerglen

That for the two gallon size ? ;-)
And, well, Bob's got it..priceless..

Amazing what people do, still fiddling with a D-8 thumbhole posted a way back, $2, chunks out of the handle and somebody sprayed chocolate brown arround the area where the handle meets the blade, but it cuts true..need to visit an orchard to see what they've got in the firewood pile of apple wood one of thse days.
Oh and not just paint, a power sander across the blade trying to clean up I guess, wonder why some are entrusted with a tool to begin with.


----------



## bandit571

Found but did not buy:

Did Stanley make a saw for a Mitre box that is almost 36" long, from to to top horn?

Ran across one Wednesday when I got those two parts saws. Could see a Stanley logo on the plate, BARELY.

Not sure what to offer for it? I have been paying $3 a saw from that pile on a shelf. LONG saw….

No photos of it. MIGHt go back next week and see IF it is still there. Might even find a mitre box sitting around there, too.


----------



## racerglen

Buy now, no regrets later…$3-5 dollars and you've scored again, that's a big mitre saw, sure it'll fit the dungeon ?


----------



## bandit571

Don't have the gas money for it. About thirty miles one way.

However: Paint stripper cans are empty, both of them. $5.67+ tax each. Let ti work most of the night, putty knife to scrape off most of the UGLY paint.

Found so far ( photos AFTER the finish has dried) A late model 8ppi D-8 skew back. D-8 has a 95% READABLE etch! A older model WS 8ppi skew back. It has a medallion in the bottom hole. No etch, of course.

Not too sure about the non-sandvik hanger-hole. Weird bolts. Like all thread up to the non-slotted head, four four ribs at the head. Steel bolts. No medallion or any sign of an etch. Handle was way too…..blocky, ran a roundover bit around, no longer as blocky.

Sandvik will be cleaned up. Plate seems to have a few curves to it, though.

BUT THE PAINT IS GONE! Might turn out OK for the $3?


----------



## bandit571

one good photo for now









WS, D-8, Unkown


----------



## chrisstef

That d8 is the winner of the bunch bandito. Good score for clams. Kinda crazy that theres a legible etch underneath all the paint and rust. Hows them there teeth?


----------



## bandit571

Once I got the paint out of them, not bad at all. Might need a touch up.

Ex-Sandvik is as clean as I can get it, Pit-city! Got rid of the Sandvik bolts ( those were BOLTS?) and maybe the tote will go too. Have a four bolt tote sitting on the cleaned plate, for now. Keeps the tote and GOOD bolts safe that way…


----------



## bandit571

Ok, I think they are about ready for Polite Company to see









That rusty Sandvik plate is now a temporary home to a Diamond Edge tote and hardware ( so they don't run off somewhere and got lost)









Brass hardware Warranted Superior. Skew back, but no etch. 8ppi









Unknown maker 8ppi straight back, steel hardware. Weird screws.









Disston D-8 with etch, late model 8ppi, steel hardware. Skew back.









Not sure how well it shows up. Has the French/ Spanish trade mark etch.









This one is the Parts saw rehab. Warranted Superior steel hardware. Again, 8ppi. The Sandvik was 11ppi, near as I can tell. Not too bad a days work…


----------



## lightcs1776

Learning a lot about saws. Thanks, Bandit.


----------



## lightcs1776

Learning a lot about saws. Thanks, Bandit.


----------



## lightcs1776

OK, yeah, a double post.


----------



## bandit571

You're welcome, you're welcome, you are welcome…..LOL

Ok, have about 15 0r 16 handsaw in the shop, I'll keep a few, that i use, the rest of the group will be up for sale in a few days. If you don't USE them, they tend to rust up, again.


----------



## DonBroussard

I picked up a block plane from a local antique dealer today, and he gave me two rusty old saw sets. I forgot to take a picture before of it I submerged it in CLR. I've partially disassembled one of them and I'm having a bit of trouble taking out the plunger and the anvil. I could use some help identifying the make and model of this saw set? I'll see if I can find some web help with the complete disassembly.










The inside of one of the handles has a patent date of "? ? 24" but no manufacturer's marking that I've found yet. It looks like a 42/42X that I've seen on the web, probably here on LJ.

Thanks in advance for the help.


----------



## DocBailey

I believe you have a EC Stearns saw set


----------



## DonBroussard

Doc-I googled that, and it does look like the EC Stearns pistol grip. I'll see if I can find some tips on disassembly. Thanks.


----------



## Airframer

Saw Pron for you guys..

Broke out my Gramercy Tools 14" Sash Saw (hybrid filed) for the first real time today..



















Butter… freakin' butter!


----------



## summerfi

Don, I believe the one in your picture is an E.C. Stearns like this pic from ebay. A Stanley 42X will have 42X clearly marked inside the handle, and I believe on top.










Here is my 42X for comparison.










Edit: Doc beat me to the draw.


----------



## DonBroussard

Bob-That picture is exactly what I have. I'm looking through patent drawings now on that set.


----------



## kwigly

For identifying all your old saw sets
go to The Saw Set Collector's Resource http://members.acmenet.net/~con12a/
(Mark seems to have most of the common saw set designs and manufacturers illustrated/identified)


----------



## bandit571

i guess mine is a Morril 95? At least it says APEX and 95 on the handles…


----------



## DonBroussard

kwigly-That is a good resource for saw set ID. Thanks for posting that.

I looked through that resource to find the identity of this piece:



















The piece sticking out from the back of the saw set has me confused, since I can't figure out what it might be for. It appears to be integral to the saw set, since it has a notch in the head of the saw set to fit the square end of the mystery piece. It also looks broken on the free end. Any ideas to the saw set, or what that piece might be used for?


----------



## bandit571

user mod. Someone wanted a little more leverage.

Same with that slotted piece. Apparently, they were just clamping a tooth, and then levered the whole thing to set a tooth. Might have been a BIG tooth









yeah, a BIG tooth, and they didn't have the right setting hammer.


----------



## kwigly

Don,
I don't recognize that sawset. Bandit might be right about it being a "homie" (=home made) from a hammer-deficient sawyer.
For an expert opinion you could try emailing your pictures to Mark through his sawset website.

Bandit,
You "might" be able to use a plier sawset to set those BIG teeth (but as you say, a hammer set would be easier)

Might want a hammer for handsaws with BIGGER teeth too.


----------



## DanKrager

Bandit, are those teeth alternate set or "swaged"?
DanK


----------



## Tim457

That's quite a collection there kwigly, even a pit saw.


----------



## bandit571

Two teeth, and a raker. Champion pattern saw. Alternate set, then a hammer to "set' the raker tooth.


----------



## TobyC

Don,

Looks like a modified Morrill.


----------



## TobyC

Don,

I use a Stearns # 795B, which is what your Stearns is above.










Best saw set ever for 10 PPI to around 4PPI, you can set the bend placement AND angle, instead of just accepting whatever angle the hammer and anvil are ground for.


----------



## TobyC

> Did Stanley make a saw for a Mitre box that is almost 36" long, from to to top horn?
> 
> - bandit571


Stanley didn't make saws, just had them branded with their name.

They did offer 30" saws (measured at the tooth line) which is probably what that one is.

Make sure the spine is straight, and the blade too, otherwise leave it for someone else to waste their time on.


----------



## bandit571

I was using it as a walking stick, until I put it back on the shelf. Found a couple of other saws I COULD use. Got them both rehabbed up, too.


----------



## TobyC

> I think a found something bobs gonna like….
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is a j. Taylor brothers 28.25 inch rip saw. Old old old British with split nuts. I have been looking for a British saw for about two years now so I may have overpaid a bit…. I think in this condition it was every bit worth it. $45
> 
> - Wally331


Man!!! That's gorgeous! Can't wait to see that one cleaned up!


----------



## donwilwol

how'd I miss that Wally. Glad it was reposted!!!


----------



## DonBroussard

Thanks, Toby. I found a picture (actually the one you posted what the one I found) of the EC Stearns 795B pistol grip. I cleaned mine up-it works but the pointer fell off from rustication during disassembly. The markings on the top to indicate the saw's ppi setting are still visible but not all the settings are clear.

Pretty sure you nailed the modified Morrill. Someone did some machining on the "cross bar" to match it up with a square slot in the head.


----------



## TobyC

Forget about the pointer and numbers on the Stearns, I found them to be useless, which is true for many old saw sets, they'll cause you to bend the teeth too far down on the tooth. The pointer is just a pin (looks sort of like a nail) you should be able to replace it with something.


----------



## summerfi

Well, I tried making my first saw etch today-with mixed results. I'm pleased with the depth of etch I was able to achieve. The detail could be a little better. But the worst thing is the etchant bled through my mask and left stipple marks where they shouldn't be. With more practice, hopefully I'll get better at it. I need to find a better mask/resist product. This is just a test etch on a piece of scrap steel, and it's much smaller than an etch would be on a full size handsaw. Scaling it up would make it look a little better I think. Anyway, I thought you all would like to see it, and maybe you have some suggestions for making it turn out better.

P.S. - I've tried and failed 3 times to put an etch resist pattern on a medallion-sized piece of brass. It's either too small, or the resist just doesn't like to stick to brass. I'm giving up on that idea.


----------



## chrisstef

Ohh hell yea Bob. I love the design. Heirloom saws!


----------



## richardwootton

Seriously Bob that's awesome!


----------



## summerfi

Thanks, but lots of room for improvement. I'll get this figured out eventually.


----------



## ToddJB

Awesome, Bob. Did you design it? It's an amazing design.

What's your process of application?


----------



## summerfi

Yes, Todd, my design.

I make a resist template by printing the design on a laser printer, but using ink jet photo paper. You have to print the design both in reverse and in negative. Then you iron the design onto your steel. Then cover all other areas of exposed steel in wax. Then soak in a ferric chloride solution with just a dash of HCL added. I left this in about a half hour, but I think 20 minutes would give clearer edges. Then take it out, wash it off, and remove the wax and resist. It's really pretty quick, but being my first try, I was a little awkward, especially with applying the melted wax. I think I can get better.

Here is an image of what it's supposed to look like


----------



## chrisstef

Summerfield No. 1 handsaw. Do want. Do covet.


----------



## ToddJB

Fantastic, Bob.


----------



## Brit

Nice design Bob. Hope you get the process down.


----------



## DanKrager

There's got to be a better way to etch that beautiful logo design, Summerfi. Having worked in Josten Jewelry tool and die department as a pattern cutter, I helped develop an etching process so the normally hand engraved zinc patterns could instead be printed or drawn on clearish drafting film. The zinc pattern plate was sprayed with a light sensitive acid resist and after the patterns were arranged on the plate so they could be cut apart, it was exposed to a very intense light (an old carbon arc light…think stage spotlight). The light "set" the resist where there was not a black line on the pattern and a rinse took away the "unset" resist, leaving crisp lines for the acid to eat into. The result was a crisp line as fine as hand cut, and some exceedingly detailed patterns were thus created. Drove the pantograph operators nuts… That could work on the medallions too. For the life of me I cannot remember what that photosensitive resist was called.
Why not a laser etch? They're cheap, at least here, and medallions would be a dime a dozen after setup.
DanK


----------



## widdle

That's nice summerfi..i'll take white long sleeve xl..


----------



## ErikF

Bob- that's awesome! Talk about a serious etch…cool.


----------



## shampeon

Bob, that is so awesome. I understand a similar technique with the laser printer/ink jet paper can be done using an electric current to etch the plate, which I guess is more controllable.


----------



## summerfi

Appreciate the feedback folks, and any suggestions for improving this process are welcome.

Dan - The one time I had laser engraving done here it was anything but cheap. If you have some sources I'd like to know about them. I've read a little about the light etching. Sounds more complicated than I was hoping to get into, but I'll look at it again. Did you ever hear back from your friend who you thought might be interested in making dies for stamping medallions?


----------



## Wally331

Hey Bob, I know that Rhett uses some sort of stencil to etch his plane irons. From what I remember they came in a sheet with your logo on it and they get stuck to the workpiece ( not sure if they had adhesive backing or needed heat applied or what..) then he uses a setup like electrolysis and it etched the logo in. If you read through his blog archives on his website you should find it no problem


----------



## Tim457

I worked at a label shop once and we used a light sensitive process like the one Dan's describing. It was in a big machine though and a light setting thermoplastic.

I think the easiest way to do it at home would be to print the pattern on transparency then get the photoresist (light setting resist), develop it, wash away the undeveloped resist, and then etch. Photoresists seem reasonably available. People that are into printing their own circuit boards at home do it this way. Transparency films are available from office supply stores or online for either laser or inkjet printers.

Here's the link I think Wally was talking about:
http://planeandsimpleblog.wordpress.com/2014/02/09/thats-gonna-leave-a-mark/


----------



## bandit571

This hacksaw has a partial etch. Bought it for a whopping $0.50 Not sure who made it.









Etch does say MFG ….a box logo with just the last letters NON and under the box logo

Darrington Conn USA

Maybe worth the two quarters I spent on it?


----------



## AnthonyReed

> That s nice summerfi..i ll take white long sleeve xl..- widdle


Me too, except in a M, please.

And, please, for the love of all that is holy put the large graphic on the back of the shirt where it belongs, not on the front.


----------



## Davescave

I am new to saw collecting. I just picked up a saw I'd like info on. The saw is an open handle with no medallion. It has 3 split nut fasteners. The blade is 26 inches, but low profile. It is 2 3/4 inches at the handle tapering to 1/2 inch at the tip. The blade is stamped " J Blakewell. New York cast steel Warranteed" 
Note, the saw has no back, just a flat blade. Any info on the saw would be appreciated. I find it curious it has no medallion. On line, I have not located a picture of the saw.


----------



## chrisstef

Sounds interesting dave. Any pics?


----------



## Davescave

Sorry, name on the blade is Bakewell, not Blakewell.

I did find a very similar saw on ebay, but it is Richard Groves.


----------



## chrisstef

Here's an interesting read on a Josiah Bakewell who was an early saw maker.

http://www.wkfinetools.com/hus-saws/MSW-WMC/history/WMC-Hist12-jBakewell-1.asp


----------



## donwilwol

pictures or it didn't happen.


----------



## chrisstef

Dude. You might have bigfoot on your hands dave. Id hold off on cleaning it up until some more information turns up. From what i gathered quickly you may have a saw dating between 1845-1853. Josiah "jesse" bakewell came to the usa after an apprenticeship in england. Moved to boston then to new york. Opened a shop on elm st in 1845 then merged with wheeler and madden in 1853 as monhagen saw works.

Need pics. Bad. Real bad. I got full blown rust lust.


----------



## donwilwol

YEP Need pics. Bad. Real bad. I got full blown rust lust to.


----------



## richardwootton

"Need pics. Bad. Real bad. I got full blown rust lust." Stef you're always the wordsmith round these parts.


----------



## bandit571

Hacksaw update…. Union Hardware Co. of Torrington, CONN. Hacksaw.









Has a decent etch, too. Will try to get aphoto when the other camera is up and running, has Macro on it.

$0.50 saw?


----------



## jordanp

Here is my find of the day..


----------



## bandit571

Nest of saws today. Paid a whopping $1 for them.









Backsaw blade: rusty, but un-used, has "ECLIPSE" on the plate. Skew back blade, rusty, but un-used, Panel saw plate, again, just rusty but not used. There are two keyhole style blades, both have a bent area, and plaster on them.

Tote does have a "wheat" pattern on it. Wingnut to change blades. May have been bought for just the keyhole blades. Looks like it was just left on a hook in the barn.

Part of the deal for the nest of saws was this 24" piece of wood and brass









Stanley SW #3. Vials work, all screws are there. Looks like it was painted a red colour at one time?









Have a can of Neverdull to clean the brass. Will have to try to clean around the vials, VERY dirty in there.

Walked up to the "Sales Lady" at the Barn sale. I had the nest of saws, and the level in one hand, as i was getting the cash out with the other. She merely looked at the tag on the saws…"$1" Ok, SOLD! And the Bandit made his getaway…..


----------



## TobyC

> I am new to saw collecting. I just picked up a saw I d like info on. The saw is an open handle with no medallion. It has 3 split nut fasteners. The blade is 26 inches, but low profile. It is 2 3/4 inches at the handle tapering to 1/2 inch at the tip. The blade is stamped " J Blakewell. New York cast steel Warranteed"
> Note, the saw has no back, just a flat blade. Any info on the saw would be appreciated. I find it curious it has no medallion. On line, I have not located a picture of the saw.
> 
> - Davescave


Sounds like a table saw or pruning saw.


----------



## TobyC

Bakewell & Co., later part of Wheeler, Madden & Bakewell, then became Wheeler, Madden & Clemson.


----------



## TobyC

Does it look similar to this?










Or this?


----------



## jordanp

Best I can tell the disston back saw I picked up is a #4 steel back 16" X cut 12 tpi 1918 - 1928 etching on the plate is gone but it's still sharp and has almost no rust..


----------



## ErikF

That table saw looks really cool. Time to build a table and pruning…useful or not. I'm about to finish up a long stroke dovetail saw that I'm hoping has some benefits. I regularly pull my 10" saw out of the cut if I'm cutting quickly so here is one in making at 13 1/2". What do you guys think?


----------



## chrisstef

Looks like it would come in really handy when batch cutting dovetails Erik.


----------



## TobyC

> That table saw looks really cool. Time to build a table and pruning…useful or not. I m about to finish up a long stroke dovetail saw that I m hoping has some benefits. I regularly pull my 10" saw out of the cut if I m cutting quickly so here is one in making at 13 1/2". What do you guys think?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - ErikF


I think it's a great idea! I never could stand a short saw, longer stroke is a smoother stroke.


----------



## Davescave

Here are pics of the table saw, Bakewell. Dont know why pics are cut off. 
It has no medallion. It looks very similar to a Richard Groves saw which has a Sheffield stamp. I read Bakewell worked in England before moving to New York. Maybe his background carried over to production of this saw ??


----------



## DanKrager

Summerfi, I did hear back from the toolmaker friend and he's taken a pass on making the medallions. I'm sorry I forgot to pass that along. I think he could be coaxed if we had a die, because then all that's needed is a press, and he has a "small 50 ton" (!) hydraulic with a 10" platen. It's the size of a small car.
I'll check with the source that laser-ed my ID plates for custom work. She (!) did 8 of them for $20, including incorporating my logo into her border layout. These were foil plated plastic that look really sharp and won't deteriorate with tarnish or weather. I wonder if she's still in business…haven't heard anything for a long time.
DanK


----------



## DanKrager

Summerfi, how big would the laser's engraving table need to be to do your engravings?
DanK


----------



## DanKrager

Summerfi, here is a source for chemicals very similar to what we used at Josten's. I'm expecting a reply from people who have a better memory than mine about what exactly we used. It was such a simple process then…I can't imagine not finding an improvement.
edit: a little more searching yielded this:

DanK


----------



## summerfi

Dan - Thanks for that info. $20 for 8 laser engraved plates sounds like a real bargain. As I recall, I paid $25 for one little plate a few years ago.



> Summerfi, how big would the laser s engraving table need to be to do your engravings?
> DanK
> 
> - Dan Krager


Well, the medallions are only 1" diameter. If we wanted to do saw backs, they would be 3/4" wide by up to 16" long, depending on the saw. If you're talking steel saw plates, backsaws would be up to 4' x 16", and handsaws of course would be larger. Even if I found a reasonable source for engraving medallions, though, that would be a big help. Again, thanks Dan for your help.


----------



## donwilwol

Interesting

http://www.timetestedtools.com/erik-florip-introduction.html


----------



## ToddJB

Awesome, Don. Great article Erik. I look forward to reading more. You're following the path that once made this country so great.


----------



## Airframer

OOORAH Marine! Get Some!


----------



## summerfi

Interesting and very well written, Erik. Congrats on what you've accomplished. I look forward to the next articles.


----------



## waho6o9

Keep doing the good work Erik!


----------



## ErikF

Thanks for the nice comments, gents. I'll get more into saw building in the next article.


----------



## john2005

Hats off to you Eric. We should all be so blessed to get up and do what we love!

Question for the panel. Getting ready to build a small till. Trying to fit a variety of saws in it. What does yours look like?


----------



## Mosquito

Mine is quite simple, and rather small




































Also, if you go this route, I'd recommend something stronger than pine for the slots you put the saws in. I broke 2 of the pieces during glue-up because the grain just let go.


----------



## john2005

THanks Mos, that's close to what I was kicking around in my head. How is it to put the bigger saws in with 2 slots to fit them into? And ironically reclaimed pine is what I have sitting at the ready for the build… Might think about that a little more now.


----------



## GMatheson

Here is mine John. It's all salvaged pine from shipping crates and hold more saws than I will ever really need. Still needs the drawers built to hold sharpening supplies and a couple glass panel doors installed before I can call it done. I used 2x pine for the slot strips. I made them fairly shallow and haven't had a problem with any breaking yet.


----------



## comboprof

So *GMatheson* brings up an interesting point. How many saws does one actually need ? (For practical use as opposed to collection.) Is it 4, i.e. crosscut, rip, miter and dovetail?


----------



## Grasshopper000

Hey, not sure this belongs here, but I'm looking for some info to get started on getting a few saws, I'm a noob and don't have any yet. I will be doing some simple projects, joinery work, furniture, etc. Any resources for what kind of saws I need to get started? I know I'll need a hand saw for ripping. I'm starting to read here and there and getting some ideas. Also, outside of Disston, any other brands of vintage saws I should be on the lookout for?


----------



## theoldfart

Simonds


----------



## summerfi

combo and Grasshop - Brother Stef has created a thread on the topic of what saws you need. Some good info there.

As for brands, in addition to Disston, Simonds, Atkins, and several other old brands are all good. Age is more important than brand because quality of all brands decreased drastically starting in the late 1940s. Basically any saw made before WWII will do a good job for you, with saws made before WW1 being preferred. I would avoid Warranted Superior saws in general, but if you know what to look for some of those can be fine too.


----------



## Grasshopper000

thanks for pointing me in the right direction, guys.


----------



## Mosquito

*John*, the pine works great for everything else, but like GMath, if you're going to use it for the divider strip, thicker than 3/4" would be advised, and shallower would probably be a good idea too (mine are 2" deep on a 3.5" board). Putting longer saws in two slots isn't bad at all. I cut the 2 strips while clamped together, so the slots all line up

-

*GMath*, how far apart did you make the slots in the strips? Mine are 1-1/2" apart


----------



## comboprof

*summerfi* thanks for the info. So many good threads … so little time.


----------



## planepassion

Greg, I like the design of your saw till. Especially the idea of glass doors to keep the dust off your tools. Please post pictures when you complete it. I also like that you'll have your sharpening supplies with the till. And I like that you've combined the storage of your backsaws with the handsaws.

Given my setup, I have separate tills for my backsaws (placed above the workbench for easy, proximate access), and my handsaws (placed near the garage side door entrance where I can step out onto the stoop to use my sawbench. Given how much dust gets in my shop, I want to create a permanent handsaw till with closing doors as opposed to using the prototype of the backsaw till I blogged about here.


----------



## RonTanc

I remember the days before "Skill Saw" when everything was cut by hand. My dad would bring his saws in every other week to have them sharpened at a mom/pop shop in the basement of a residential home. I now own those saws but don't use them; where would I find someone to sharpen them today!


----------



## john2005

Greg, that thing is sweet. How about you send it over, I will build the doors and drawers and then send it back…..maybe….. Great idea though seriously.


----------



## summerfi

Ron, you have a few options for getting your saws sharpened.

1. Learn to sharpen yourself. Takes some time and patience, but most people can do it if they have the desire. There are a lot of resources available to teach you how. This is the cheapest and most rewarding option if you have the patience and interest.

2. Search for another mom and pop sharpening business in your area, though these are getting hard to find.

3. Send them out to saw guru's who advertise on the internet. Here are a couple. This option can get expensive.
http://www.blackburntools.com/saw-sharpening/index.html
http://logancabinetshoppe.wordpress.com/saw-sharpening/

4. There are a few LJ members who sharpen saws and may be willing to do yours at a reasonable cost. A couple that come to mind are need2boat and chrisstef. I could do it as well, though I'm not really looking for business.

Hope that helps, and good luck.


----------



## Tim457

Yeah I really like that design too Greg. Dowels on the bottom and two by for the guides seems like a good solution and I also like the idea of doors for keeping dust off of them. Are there plans for this somewhere, or do you want to put together a sketchup model for us? 

Edit:
Ron, Bob said it well. Matt Cianci is another saw guy that does them:
http://www.thesawwright.com/Services.html

Definitely spendy. At those prices you could buy a new Lie Nielsen saw and after not too long come out ahead with their rather reasonable sharpening service. And mind you $50 for the work they do isn't even unreasonable.


----------



## GMatheson

Tim I have no plans for it and I've never used sketchup before. My inspiration came from a photo I found a few years ago and then I modified my plan to an enclosed case.










Mos, I spaced the slots 1.5" apart and 1" from the edge. That's about as close as you can get without the saw handles bumping into each other.

Eventually I will build a plane till and mount it on the wall beside the saw till and they will all be sitting behind glass doors


----------



## Mosquito

That's what I figured Greg, 1.5" being least possible. Wish I had more space, as I could build a bigger till then. This one's already full and I have a few extra saws now… how'd that happen? lol


----------



## bandit571

Rust Hunt Find









Nest of VERY SAW saws….by ECLIPSE Ever hear of them?


----------



## GMatheson

You could always make a taller saw till Mos. Keep the same footprint and go multilevel. You could triple your saw storage I bet.


----------



## DonBroussard

Bandit-I have an Eclipse hack saw. I've not seen an Eclipse hand saw during my hunts.


----------



## Davescave

Hi, I have a couple questions on a Disston saw I just picked at a garage sale. 
The handle has engraved marking "CCP", is this meant to indicate cross cut panel ??
On top of handle is engraved "6048" ,not sure about the 6 as its worn. Any ideas about this number? Is it a date?
And, the saw is 10 tpi. But stamp on blade is an odd "0". See my pic. The 0 is sideways , adjacent to bolt and at very edge of blade. Actually partially on a tooth. A little hard to find unless zoomed. If this was supposed to be tpi, they stamped sideways and missed the 1.. But, my guess this stamp is something else.

Thoughts ? 
!http://i1310.photobucket.com/albums/s647/schreibersallDschreiber/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps27459237.


----------



## chrisstef

Dave - typically markings on the handle are from previous owners, to the best of my knowledge none were marked on the handle from the factory outside of maybe an Atkins which was embossed with their logo. You'll see initials, last names, nicknames, etc. Id bet that the CCP is the owners initials but I could be wrong. IMO, its just part of the saws history and allure. As to the ppi stamp, some are stamped deeper than others. Some will eventually wear off from the saw sliding through the kerf cut after cut and some will be missing due to all the sharpenings over the years and some will be clear as day for 150 years.


----------



## Davescave

Chris, thanks for the info. It makes sense the multiple sharpenings removed the 1, and only the 0 is left. And, yes the handle letters are likely a prior owner's addition. 
Have a great day.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Dave, I couldn't disagree more strenuously with the Honorable Gentleman from CT regarding the markings on your Disston saw. What you have, as evidenced by the "CCP" handle etch, is an example of Soviet-era pilfering of quality US-made merchandise, acquired by the KGB for reverse engineering and subsequent production in communist factories of the day. Agents then attempted to cover their tracks by removing the first letter of the marking "CCCP."

Very rare and intriguing find indeed. Hope this helps.


----------



## chrisstef

Well slap my ass and call me suzie. I humbly recant my misinformation dave. Smittys word is highly regarded in my opinion. Being a post cold war baby i defer to others information. I learned me somethin today.


----------



## summerfi

Smitty definitely knows his stuff when it comes to Russian saws. This picture from the sawing competition at the Miss Soviet Union pageant proves it.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Excellent point, Bob. Mrs. Comrade above is clearly using a gulag-produced (inferior) copy of Disston's patented 112,007 buck saw. Wow, it's obvious now that you point it out. Well done.


----------



## Davescave

Yuse guys are a hoot!! I really enjoyed that "well slap my ass and call me Suzie" reply.
Being a Minnesotan up here in da nort woods, I started
Lookin for some KGB guy in my wood lot. But then that Soviet Union pageant pic set me straight. All those KGB agents would be at the pageant. For sure yaaa.
Dave


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Here's my saw till. Pretty simple design with a wedged dowel. The sides are solid, back is ply. Most of the saws were made or restored by other LJs….which is cool.










-
The latest addition is a bocote handled dovetail saw I bought from LJ ErikF along with a saw kit. It's a nice saw. It starts a lot easier than my LN dovetail saw….which I was hoping for. It will come in handy on half blinds.


----------



## racerglen

Red, that's a gorgeous saw and the till isn't too shabby either !
Wow.


----------



## kwigly

For interim storage of those "spare" saws (saws that are not in your current "user" pile), I've found that those wide drawer file cabinets work pretty good.

I can easily fit forty to fifty saws per drawer (and more if I lay additional ones on top)


----------



## theoldfart

^ slippery slope's gone vertical!


----------



## john2005

Friggen sweet lookin saw there Red/Erik. Love that handle.


----------



## summerfi

40 or 50 saws per drawer, 4 or 5 drawers per cabinet, multiple cabinets can fit in my shop. Now you're talking my language Kwigly!


----------



## planepassion

kwigly, if you're married, I'd suggest you keep those drawers closed to keep the peace


----------



## jordanp

Kwigly don't give Bob any ideas!

Hey Bob do you have any 4-5 TPI rip saws cleaned and sharpened, that are up for sale?


----------



## summerfi

Not at the moment, Jordan. I do have a Disston D-7 6ppi (5 tpi) rip saw that I need to do some handle repairs on and sharpen. The plate is already cleaned up and is pretty nice. I could step up the pace and get that one done if you're interested. PM me if you want to talk.


----------



## bandit571

Nest of saws has been cleaned up









Don't know if it shows up, but there is an etch for ECLIPSE in the plate. Price tag says " all for $1" soooo,









Another nest of saw tote was available. This is a mean-toothed rip/crosscut saw. The weird shiny part of that plate? It is from the next saw









Found a new use for a cheap Sandvik tote. This seems to be a rip saw, Cuts FAST, too.









Another recycled tote, for the Keyhole saw blade. There was also a smaller blade as a keyhole/compass saw









It can also use the Keyhole saw tote. BTW, along with this nest of saws, there was this included in the $1 price









This also was cleaned up. Stanley SW #3 24" long level









Can't understand why they call me…...Bandit…


----------



## comboprof

As requested on the Restoration Thread I have attached two saws that belonged to my Grandmother.

I have done no restoration nor cleaning. Indeed I'd like some advice on restoration/cleaning that will the visibility of the stamps and etching.

The first is a Rip saw (?) (Photos 1-5) with the stamp "J Butcher Shefield" and near by "Warranted cast steel". (See photo 3.) A little difficult to photograph so that the stamps are readable. Indeed I had to read them in direct sunlight at the right angle. It looks like the handle has been replaced.

The second is a Cross cut (?) (Photos 6-9) with etching "the STANDARD made in U.S.A." written across the middle the words ""Warranted cast steel" around it in an outer circle and some filigree. (See photo 7.) The Handle bottom has been poorly repaired with nails and no glue.

Any advice and information on these saws would be appreciated.

Photo 1:








Photo 2:








Photo 3:








Photo 4:








Photo 5:









Photo 6:








Photo 7:








Photo 8:








Photo 9:









I off to get started making a saw till. LOL.


----------



## summerfi

Don - I really like the Butcher saw, but then I have a thing for British saws. The screws have obviously been replaced, but why do you think the handle has been replaced? It looks like a typical British pattern handle. The book Hand-Saw Makers of Britain lists a William and a Samuel Butcher, but no J. Butcher. I'm sure he's related though. Judging by it's appearance, your saw is likely from the 2nd half of the 19th century, and most likely from the 4th quarter.

I would say the Standard saw is a second line saw from one of the American manufacturers, but hard to say which one. Many of them used side plates on second line saws.

There are a lot of resources available to provide advice on restoring your saws, and you can always ask for help here. You should have a coupe of really nice saws when you're finished.


----------



## summerfi

Don - if your Standard saw has an etch like this, then it was made by Disston.


----------



## comboprof

> The screws have obviously been replaced, but why do you think the handle has been replaced? It looks like a typical British pattern handle.
> - summerfi


*Summerfi*: I presumed that the if the screws were replaced then the handle was also replaced.
On the xcut I think the etch on it looks exactly like the one you posted, but I'd like to be sure.

*Questions*

What can I do to make the etch sand out and be more visible?
If I soak the saw in evapo-rust will it destroy the etch?
If I polish the saw with a wire brush will it destroy the etch?

To me this is a family heirloom and I want to be very careful with restoration. Maybe I should practice on some other saws.


----------



## summerfi

1. Wrap 400 grit sandpaper around a small flat wooden block and carefully sand the etch area. Be careful to not sand so much that you begin to lose the etch. Once you've cleaned the entire plate to your satisfaction, you can use a liquid cold gun blue in the etch area to try to make the etch stand out more. After the blue has dried, use the wooden block and sandpaper again to remove the blue around the etch. The blue will remain in the depressions of the etch. I've had mixed success with this technique. If your etch is weak to begin with, there's not much you can do.

2. I don't think so, but if your etch is really faint (as in almost gone), I suppose it could.

3. I wouldn't recommend a wire brush. Sandpaper is the way to go. Always sand lengthwise on the saw, never crosswise. In the areas away from the etch, you can use 220 paper to begin, then go to 320, and then to 400. You can wet sand if you choose, with WD-40, simple green, mineral spirits, or even water. I generally dry sand.

I understand your concern about these being family heirlooms. Practicing on a cheap yard sale saw is a good way to build experience and confidence.

The best way to tell if the handle has been replaced on the Butcher is to remove the handle and see if there are extra holes drilled in the plate. If there are, then the handle has been replaced. If not, then it is probably original. I'm betting your handle is original to the saw. You'll probably want to remove the handle during the restore (there's likely rust under it) and replace the screws with proper split-nut screws anyway.


----------



## Tim457

I second what Bob says, especially the sanding block around the etch and practicing on something less important first. The only thing I would add is I recently learned (probably on LJ) that you should sand in straight strokes from one end of the saw plate to the other. Going back and forth in the middle of the saw leaves circular scratches that are harder to get out. I have a plate I restored where you can definitely see the results of back and forth sanding.

I'm pretty sure evapo rust would mostly make your etch less visible just based on using it on other things, but I haven't tried a saw in it. It wouldn't really remove the etch depression so you could then try to re-blue the etch. Doesn't seem worth it.

If I were a really patient person I'd try painting blueing on only where it should go over the etch so it doesn't darken the surrounding pits as well, but I don't think I'm up for that.


----------



## donwilwol

I've used cold blue like Bob mentioned and have heard of using machinist layout blue. I'm going to try the layout blue on the next one where cold blue isn't enough. It's darker so maybe it will help. I haven't tried it yet so I wouldn't go right into a heirloom saw with it.


----------



## JayT

Don K, good advice above. I just wanted to add that I did a blog post a while back about using cold gun blue to bring out an etch. I've had good luck with that process, but it does depend on what you are starting with. As Bob mentioned, if the etch isn't very deep, there's not really anything you can do to bring it out.


----------



## comboprof

To me it looks like the etch on the Disston is not very deep, but I have no experience so perhaps it is deep enough. I think I for now I'll just clean up with mineral spirits and treat the few rust spots. I'll garage sale pick up a couple of old saws tomorrow and see how their restoration goes. The etch(or stamp) on the Butcher is deep enough that I have no worries about attempting restoration and shinning it up.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

I chuckled when I saw Chris Schwarz's knew concepts fret saw in the latest Popular woodworking. Seems he couldn't take the red either. Says he painted it black to match his planes


----------



## GMatheson

If one was to have a mitresaw custom filed, what would be a good tooth geometry to go with? It will be 11ppi and used in hard and softwood equally.


----------



## chrisstef

I like the standard 15 degrees rake 25 degrees fleam greg. A typical crosscut filing.


----------



## bandit571

Rust Hunt today produced a Craftsman Kromedge Satin cut 22" miter saw, # 881.36305

saw is kind of rusty, but all of the parts are there, paid a whopping $5

Teeth are still sharp. 11ppi I think. Back roller guides are a bit sticky. Looks like it has been a Home for Wayward Spiders….

Pictures when I can get up and walk about a little better….


----------



## kwigly

My whopping $1 bid for a bunch of six rusty old saws was the only bid at a local auction this Thursday night, so they followed me home.










One saw had interested me (Stef will likely zoom onto the 3 medallion saw)










I was excited as this is the first 3 medallion Disston I've ever found, and the handle is really good except for a crack across the lower grip ogee (that closes with hand pressure and should be an easy glue-up), and the plate is a full 7-1/2" deep at the handle (but some rusty, and the nib is gone)

When I got it home I got out the scraper and sandpaper and said a little prayer to the Big Guy that there would be an etch under all that rust, then worked on a small section to have a look see.










WhoooHooo !! 
Looks like I've got a Disston 99, (1871-75 split nut era), 11ppi,
[with a bit of work to do to clean her up]


----------



## summerfi

Wow kwigly, talk about finding a needle in a haystack. Nice find!


----------



## bandit571

And the Craftsman 22" miter saw









Kromedge, satin cut. $5 too much?









That little 7" Dunlap hitched a ride home….

Doubt IF there is an etch on the saw plate….


----------



## Tim457

Wow kwigly, for 17 cents that has to be some kind of record. If that's the only crack on that handle, it should turn out great.


----------



## chrisstef

A split nut 99! Next stop … The gas station for some lottery tickets. Thats an amazing find kwigley.


----------



## richardwootton

The handle on that 99 is absolutely gorgeous! I want to copy it for my first saw!


----------



## donwilwol

a dollar and a dream!!


----------



## upchuck

All-
I'd like some information on straightening saw plates. Anyone know of a source (written or YouTube) for learning this skill? I have a couple of saws that need this work done to them and I have a couple of unloved orphans that I'd be willing to sacrifice while trying to learn how to do this.
Any help? Any experience? Any advise? Any cautions?


----------



## summerfi

Here's a pretty good article on straightening bent plates.

http://woodcentral.com/articles/handtools/articles_866.shtml


----------



## planepassion

upchuck, I've used Smalser's techniques to straighten a saw plate and now have some fine users to show for it. Thanks for posting the link summerfi!


----------



## Airframer

Any of you saw experts wanna help me out? I've got some saw questions in my latest Blog Entry


----------



## bandit571

A saw rehab tonight









The start. Had a bit of rustiness to clear off









Wire brush to clear most of the rust, didn't find any etch, so on to the 220 grti on the palm sander. Then a pad of Neverdull under the sander. Allow to dry, and then buff out. Bolts were wire brush to get rid of most of the red stuff. Couldn't get down into the #3 Phillips recesses. As for the base









an old broom to evict the resident spiders, and their homes. Spray cleaner to remove the grime.









There seems to be a way to lock the height? Look under them white plastic guides. A thumbscrew to tighten a stop? Grooves in the guides, is there supposed to be rubber "O" rings in them?









Haven't cut anything with this saw…yet. Need to get a bit of room …somewhere…


----------



## kwigly

"The handle on that 99 is absolutely gorgeous! I want to copy it for my first saw!"

Richard; You can find a great selection of old handle templates at http://www.tgiag.com/saw-handle-scans.html 
The Disston 9 template is pretty close to my 99 (You'll have to add the nibs above and below the grip)

Bob; Finding split-nut Disston handsaws of any sort seems rare here in Ontario (I am a lucky bastard to find that 99). The Canadian trade tarrifs for imports from the USA meant that most Ontario saws of that era were imported from the UK 
[I've found only three Disston split-nut handsaws, but old English split-nut saws are here for the picking (maybe not kick-em-outa-the-way numerous, but they do turn up regularly here in old saw heaven) ]


----------



## racerglen

Old Brit backsaw I've posted before but with more cleanup and my computer ATE the before picks, said "error" after I'd deleted the pix from my camera like told to. hrumph.









"The Black Knight" at top of a rather ornate etch thats got a lot of pitting, but Shefeild England, believe the manufacturer is Slack Sellars and co.Cast steel #55








The nuts were a pain, no ribbibng on the shafts.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

So what's a Disston no 4 like this go for? Looks like it from the 30's, I think. The teeth are straight and all there. Could use a touchup though. 


























I tried to look on the bay, but the prices seem all over.


----------



## upchuck

All-
This Marples saw has been presenting some problems for me. I had a very hard time getting the handle off. I put a piece of wood against the front end grain and beat it off with a mallet. Before when I have used this method once the handle moved a little bit I could set the mallet aside and work the handle off. Not this time. I had to beat the saw tote all the way off the plate.

When I examined the plate there was a half cylinder of metal protruding from one of the screw holes. I tried filing the protrusion flat to the plate but gave that up because I was worried about scratching the back and plate even with tape to mask those areas. I ended up using a dremel like tool to remove the metal.

As I was cleaning up the tote I noticed a small chip out of one side of the lower opening of the hand hole and a very tight crack across that part of the tote. While repairing these defects I noticed that the plate slot had some debris that would not blow out. I set it aside for a day or two while I tried to figure what I had or could make to clear out the junk. I ended up using the thin 6" ruler I use when sharpening plane blades ("the ruler trick" ruler). Finally, after putting a couple of gouges across the ruler, out popped the other half of the cylinder of metal. This
swarf is about 1/8" tall and the diameter of the plate screw holes (is it swarf if it is still attached to the plate?).

From this I conclude that the handle has never been off this saw until I took it off. And that the drilling of the plate was done at the same time that the tote was installed. Were the tote and plate drilled at the same time? Notice the blackish discoloration near the front screw hole of the tote. I know that iron/steel reacts with the tannic acids in oak and discolors the wood like this example. But I had thought that this handle was most likely European Beech. I ended up using a sliver of Beech I had from a dead transitional plane body. It seems a good match. I didn't know that Beech would produce this kind of reaction or if it is something else.

Thanks for your patience. Sorry about the photos. My damn camera allows one photo before the battery charge runs out and the camera refuses to function. Changing batteries doesn't help. I'm glad that the problems I've had with this saw seem to be over and I can get back to cleaning up the pieces. I still have hopes for this tool.

chuck


----------



## chrisstef

Id say about 40 bones As it sits Red. Sharpened and ready to go id say about 60-75. Just my opinion though.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

^ Thanks Stef. I don't need it so I was gonna sell or swap it.


----------



## summerfi

Chuck - In spite of the problems, it looks like you're doing a good job with the saw. Steel can indeed stain beech black like that, especially if it has gotten wet at some point. Try some oxalic acid on that black spot. It may not take it completely out, but should lighten it up quite a bit. If you can't find oxalic acid, get some of the stuff at HD for rejuvenating decks. That's mostly oxalic acid. It may require multiple applications.


----------



## shampeon

Barkeeper's Friend is oxalic acid and detergent. Easily findable, and useful for getting the tannin stains off your hands when working with walnut, oak, etc.


----------



## donwilwol

Is this of any great value? Spear & Jackson.



























I picked this up as well










Pay no attention to the $3 tag, that's just what I paid for it. $5 in the pair!


----------



## richardwootton

Man I need to visit the northeast for some rust hunting!


----------



## donwilwol

you have to know how to stalk them though. They don't just come to you


----------



## summerfi

Nice find on the Spear & Jackson Don. The plate is nice and wide. Is it also straight? There's no lamb's tongue. Not sure if that means it's a later saw or a lesser quality one. At 2 bucks it's a steal. You could 10x your money on ebay as is. Now you have to find a medallion.

Is the miter saw a Disston?


----------



## donwilwol

Its not only straight Bob, its actually really sharp.


----------



## lateralus819

Richard come on up!

I got a room for ya, Dons only a half hour away. Go out for some beers and rust hunting!


----------



## Airframer

Handle replacement in progress..



















How does one accurately locate the existing holes on a saw place to the new handle? Inquiring minds need to know..


----------



## richardwootton

Kevin, that sounds really fun! I bet we could pull Stef into the mix if his old lady hasn't hidden his man parts. Two of the three things I love, beers and rusty old tools are two of them. You can probably guess the third…


----------



## summerfi

Eric - See this link. http://www.blackburntools.com/blog/locating-bolt-holes-in-replacement-saw-handles/

Or you could do what I do. Just lay the plate on top of the handle and mark the holes.


----------



## Airframer

Thanks Bob!


----------



## jordanp

*Red* I just picked up a disston #4 also looks a lot like yours I think I dated mine between 1918 and 1928.

Cleaned up nicely they seem to be worth anywhere from $50-$80

Probably going to keep mine though..


----------



## donwilwol

Bob, the miter saw is a Disston.


----------



## bandit571

Test run of a $5 Mitre box









Seems to read square as the scales match the try square.









Saw is clamped to the saw bench, and an Oak board clamped to the saw.









Note to self: WAX the dang saw plate! Still leaves a glass-like cut, except for the last hair of the bottom of the cut. No saw marks. Bench is low enough even BigRed could use it….


----------



## summerfi

This is a good example of why it is "buyer beware" on ebay. This example actually makes me pretty angry, because it is intentional deception.

The saw below is listed as an 1840s Henry Disston & Sons. This looked suspect to me, so I wrote the seller and politely asked him how he determined the saw was a Disston of that date. I asked if the plate had a maker's stamp, and if so, if he could post a picture of it. I pointed out that Disston's first son joined the firm in 1865, and prior to that the saws were simply marked H. Disston. I also pointed out that the shape of the handle was uncharacteristic for Disston saws, and that all Disston saws of that period had nibs, which this saw doesn't. I referred him to the Disstonian Institute as a good source of information on old Disston saws.

He sent back a short reply that said the saw has no stamp, no medallion, the handle may be a replacement, and he dated the saw by the split nuts.

I replied a little less politely this time, saying the saw could not possibly be an 1840s Disston & Sons because Disston had no sons in the 1840s, and that split nut screws were used on Disston saws until 1876. I further said that his listing was not only inaccurate, but misleading, and in my opinion unethical.

He replied with this: "Everyone has an opinion don't they."

Here is the listing and the saw. Buyer beware.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1840s-Henry-Disston-Sons-Hand-Saw-24-8-TPi-with-spanner-nuts-/291196478981?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43cca9a605


----------



## summerfi

I see he has now changed his listing from 1840's to 1800's. Still calls it a Disston & Sons though.


----------



## chrisstef

Blatant false advertising.


----------



## Tim457

You could try posting a question on the listing as to how he knows its a Disston and that it's from the 1800's. Because basically he knows none of that except that it has split nuts. Not everyone will see the questions, but it might help. There's also a "report item" link to the far right side just above the description and item specifics box.


----------



## walden

Bob - That sucks. I luckily have only had to deal with two bad sellers in the last 12 years. Ebay was great in both cases.


----------



## donwilwol

I've done the same thing with a couple of planes Bob. Some sellers have thanked me and changed the listing. One had a block listed as a type 1. When I pointed out why it wasn't a type 1 he killed the listing. t came back a while later listed correctly. He explained it came from a reputable auction house that sold it to him as a type 1. But, I have also had the same response as you got on all to many occasions.


----------



## summerfi

I've had both kinds of reactions from sellers too. I guess it just shows you both sides of human nature. When you ask them a question, the seller has the option of whether to post it for others to see. I tried the "report listing" button, but there were no categories that really fit this kind of situation. So it's still buyer beware, and you're wise to do your homework in advance.

On a brighter note, I picked up this pre-1865 H. Disston with eagle medallion yesterday. I'm not sure what I'll do with it, but I think it's a cool saw.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Wow, Bob! On the ebay scum and on your new Disston! I've yet to see a split nut saw in person…

I do have this to submit to the panel:




























A chip under the top horn, otherwise awesome. Is it worth what people are seeking on the 'bay, as in $100+?


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## Airframer

> A chip under the top horn, otherwise awesome. Is it worth what people are seeking on the bay, as in $100+?
> 
> - Smitty_Cabinetshop


Change your search settings to completed auctions and if they have SOLD (not just listed over and over with no sales) consistently at or around that price than yes otherwise it might be a bit high (dunno).


----------



## richardwootton

Shoot I just love everything Winchester, so I'm too biased to comment!


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop

That's the problem, no solds that aren't 'Old Trusty,' and this one ain't that. Belief is it's a winchester thing, and not a saw thing…


----------



## summerfi

Winchester saws do seem to bring more than comparable saws of other brands, so I would agree it's a "Winchester thing." I could see that saw bringing $100+, especially if it was cleaned up nice and sharpened.

On a related note, does anyone know who produced Winchester tools? I assume they were made by primary manufacturers for Winchester, similar to how Craftsman, etc tools were made.


----------



## richardwootton

Well considering that my first "big boy" rifle was a Winchester model 94 and first shot gun was a 42 that's where my bias lies.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

It's sharp now, I will say that.

Richard, you need this saw? I'd like it to go to a good home.


----------



## richardwootton

I really don't, I'd like it, but I'm afraid I don't need it. I'd love it if this saw went to a fellow LJer!


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## donwilwol

I've got a Winchester bit brace that should go to the same place


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## chrisstef

There was a Winchester firearms here in CT but im not sure if the tools and the guns are related. Either in New Haven or Hamden was their main plant if I remember correctly. I know diddly about firearms but were they the same company?

Fairly interesting article on Winchester: http://www.realorrepro.com/article/Winchester-Tools-fake-and-forged-marks-mismatched-pieces

Simmons made the saws and rebranded as Winchester? It also looks like there was some sort of merger with Keen Kutter?
http://www.thckk.org/history/win-sim.pdf

From what I gather, they go for good money because they only had that line of tools for about 8 years before it went to hell.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

^ Good stuff, stef. I'd heard that about the winchester products (being a marking deal, essentially) but not in that much detail.

A bit more.

http://www.thckk.org/history/winchester-hist.pdf


----------



## chrisstef

From wiki:

The company (Simmons) had used an aggressive system of business where it aimed to buy up its suppliers so that it had the choice of best machinery and they could give priority to their needs. The company would then sell off the excess capacity in these companies. Their alliterative Keen Kutter brand was advertising nationally and the KK initials were used for several of their other brands. In 1902 they bought the eponymous Walden Knife company in Walden in New York and this was of interest when the Winchester Repeating Arms Company decided to broaden their range to include knives. They merged with the Simmons Hardware Company and they moved the Walden machinery from New York to their base in Connecticut. The Winchester and Keen Kutter brands did good business during the 1920s but in 1929 they agreed to separate and Simmons returned to their core business.[10] In October of the same year they sold the Keen Kutter Building in Wichita to Alfred Jonathon Harwi's who had a hardware company in Atchison, Kansas.[11]

My synopsis of this morning tool history research is thus:

Winchester merged with Simmons after the war and profits from ammunition and firearms dropped. Winchester utilized their machinery and manpower to turn out some tools. To expand the brand and keep the inventory they merged with Simmons out of STL MO, who also produced Keen Kutter tools. This was about 1920 The merger and partnership went south around 1929 and they split ways. Your Winchester saw might be worth that $100 because of its rarity in being produced for only 10 years or so.

I wonder how the Winchester saw looks in comparison to a KK saw? That would be an interesting little study.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop

I'll have to check, I have them both.


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## chrisstef

Being that close to STL has its perks now doesn't it Smitty. I hope your home so that we can work on this very important type study this morning. Work can wait lol.


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## donwilwol

there goes the price of Winchester tools, threw the roof!!


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## chrisstef

We can always delete our posts


----------



## bandit571

Hope they don't start on Wards master Quality tools…...


----------



## donwilwol

if I'd have known I'd have bought more!!

I'd love a Winchester study to post on Timetestedtools. Who's writing it? I'll pay twice as much as LJ!


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## richardwootton

CAUTION! Some some what graphic images to follow.

First, a short back story. Yesterday my dad and I drove out to my late grandfathers home to try and salvage any of the old tools that hadn't been stolen from the old tool shed on their property. Though most of the tools were sadly gone I did find a couple of old hammer heads with the handles missing. So last night I decided to make a new handle for the larger of the two. So I threw a piece into the vice to start cutting a tenon. However my crappy cheap vise wasn't clamping quite hard enough for it to hold rigidly so I was using my left hand to support the shaft from moving around. Then my large dovetail saw slipped out of the cut and straight into the top of my thumb. Do I feel like a jack ass? Yes, but I thought it was worth sharing. After spending all night in the ER I have 4 stitches. I know, not that bad, but I have to use that hand every day at work.
Here are a few pictures.


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## donwilwol

glad I never did anything like that! 

pay no attention to the scars. I was born with them.


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## chrisstef

Glad youre ok bud. I gotta ask … was it the disston i sharpened? In a sick, twisted, way i kinda hope so lol.

That scar will be a nice reminder tattooed across your thumb. Heal up brother.


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## summerfi

Dang! Sorry that had to happen Richard. Heal up quickly.


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## donwilwol

was it the disston i sharpened

The man takes pride in his work !!


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## Airframer

So.. the moral of the story is that a leg vise is the Saw Stop of the handtool world? Stay safe and keep it 10 and 10 ;-)


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## richardwootton

Lol Stef! I wish I could saw it was. I was actually using the one I bought from ErikF. But I promise, the next time I have to get stitches it will be a result of a Stef sharpened saw. The thing that pisses me off most is that this little ER visit just dug into my tool money! Too bad Al wasn't around I could have just traded a few planes to get fixed up.


----------



## JayT




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## ErikF

Sorry about the cut Richard but thanks for the good advertising! haha..I hope it's not too soon.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Okay.

Winchester 'comparative type study #1' puts the Winchester #10 (top) against a Disston D23:










And then against a DE (Diamond Edge / Shapleigh):










RESULTS: Inconclusive (to me). What say the panel?


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## summerfi

Something I've noticed by looking at a lot of saws…Disston was the biggest producer and the trend setter, and other makers tended to follow their lead (i.e. produced saws that were essentially copies of Disstons). So if a saw looks like a Disston, it's not necessarily a Disston. The historical connection between Winchester and Simmons/Keen Kutter/Diamond Edge/Shapleigh seems strong.


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## chrisstef

I like bobs thoughts on the comparison. The winchester/simmons/etc seems like the plates are let in a little bit while the disston looks like a straight cut.


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## ToddJB

Richard, sorry about the thumb. I feel your pain - I've been a little too rough on my digits lately too. But when I die, I'd rather have a body that I've worn out, than one in pristine condition.


----------



## summerfi

Ha! Todd, it's trying to time the wearing out and the dying parts that gets tricky. I'm afraid my timing was a little off and the wearing out happened too early.


----------



## ToddJB

Then it's time for a restoration, Bob. Just don't remove all the patina.


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## donwilwol

> Ha! Todd, it s trying to time the wearing out and the dying parts that gets tricky. I m afraid my timing was a little off and the wearing out happened too early.
> 
> - summerfi


I'm pretty sure mine was defective.


----------



## 7Footer

Is this anything special? He says it has a metal handle, 31.5" long….


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## summerfi

7 - That's a docking saw. I wouldn't say it's anything special. You see a lot of them on ebay. You also see a lot of ice saws with metal handles.

Here's a short article about docking saws. http://www.leevalley.com/en/newsletters/Woodworking/4/5/collection.htm


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## 7Footer

Ah I see. Thank you Sir. I've seen them once or twice but didn't know what it was…


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## Airframer

In the next week or so I will be venturing forth on some saw sharpening for the first time in my life and have a question (well many actually but one stands out)

When do I set the teeth? Before I joint and shape/sharpen then again afterwards? Just afterwards or at the beginning?

Oh and that nice little 22" Disston Mitre Box saw Don found last week is now living in my shop awaiting the arrival of a SW No 242 mitre box  Thanks Don!


----------



## summerfi

Eric - I set the teeth after I've shaped them and just before the second light jointing and final sharpening. Others may do it differently, but that works best for me.


----------



## chrisstef

I do the same as Bob. What saw are you startin on Eric?


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## donwilwol

Keep in mind you won't need to set on every sharpening. Maybe every 4 or 5 sharpening. For instance, if you were just touching up the miter saw, you wouldn't need to set those.


----------



## planepassion

I've found that the vintage saws that make their way into my shop have plenty of set. Even after an earnest jointing, shaping, light jointing and final filing session. I only add set if I experience issues with the test cut. And even then, I go light on the set.


----------



## Airframer

That's what I needed to know. Stef, starting on a 28" crosscut miter saw blade.. go big or go home right?


----------



## chrisstef

Thats goin full blown downsy AF. 280 teeth at say a modest 7 strokes per tooth is only 1960 file strokes lol. You should have that licked by lunch.


----------



## SCOTSMAN

Wow sometimes taking old tools machhinery and after dismantling(with machines of course not handsaws unless desired of course ) and rebuilding them better than new .That or or buy old handtools like these saws and working hard to make them in terms of there future working ability once again (work able and perfect) is altogether a whole new hobby in itself.
I know this as , when I was younger and obviously much fitter, I bought many older rough looking usually industrial stuff and loved nothing better than to work some of my Big Al's charm and ability on them , and making them what I call better than new .This was always a source of great happiness and joy for me.
I loved nothing better than to be up to my neck in dirt and sludge scraping,cleaning and making some new parts which needed replacing After that ,then comes the time when you repaint them from ground up ( not handsaws I am reminiscing sorry ah the good old days early in my hobby.A great idea and post . Keep well Alistair


----------



## lateralus819

Richard sorry brother. That stinks. I got 3 fingers on the table saw black in March. Luckily no loss. Anyways, I have a brand new Bessey vise I nabbed on the Lowe's sale if you want it.


----------



## richardwootton

Thanks Lat. Is the bessey vice the light duty woodworkers vise? If so, that's the vise I was using.


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## lateralus819

It's just a standard vise. Wasn't sure what you were using. It's the bolt on bench type.


----------



## fumehappy

Anybody know what this stamp means? I was expecting an "X" but got a "3' instead. It was under the handle of the remnants of a D-12 (possibly). 
Thanks!


----------



## fumehappy




----------



## summerfi

My Disston No. 9 has an X and a 3. Don't know for sure, but I suspect the 3 may stand for the 30" plate that is on my saw. Your No. 12 may have had a 30" plate at one time.


----------



## chrisstef

I don't think that anyone's figured out what some of the numbers mean that are found underneath the handles on some saws. The X would be for "extra" but outside of that numbers and letter could be those of the tool maker but I don't think there's a solid, truthful answer that ive read but Bob's sounds plausible enough to me.

My No. 99 had a 99 stamped under the handle and no X. I cant recall what my 12 looked like.

Looks like a 12 to me. A very well used 12.


----------



## fumehappy

Summer,
Do you recall where abouts the X was on your plate? 
Chris, I am planning to take the blade down gently and re-purpose into a larger backsaw plate. There's just too much gone to try and restore to any kind of panel saw.
Thanks!


----------



## chrisstef

Nice fume. Should make for a fun project.

Here's the stamp on the 99:


----------



## summerfi

fume - Here are pics of the X and 3 on my plate.


----------



## racerglen

So..weekend at the racetrack, we're under a campfire ban..see a whole lot of smoke billowing up cross the pits and knowing full well it's the wild men from the Kootenays and their huge trailer towed smoker BBQ, wander over to threaten an air strike..
The response was great.."it's that wet applewood in the bottom.." apparently one blew down last week and they bucked and chopped for the smoker. Now.. I happened to wander off with a chunk, sheesh, wet apple wood is HEAVY ! Which part is good for the saw handle repair jobs, the heart (dark almost walnut color wet) or the blonde sapwood ? need to slice it up, perhaps when Mrs isn't watching a tad of microwave drying.
;-)


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

A 1955 D-95:



















Tag reads from the shop that sharpened and jointed it: 8-1-1979


----------



## chrisstef

The DI reads "carved rosewood handle" .... Dats nice. Cool score smitty.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

It seems legit, and not the Va BS that was put out much later. It's rosewood, 11pt, and appears to have not cut wood for 35 years…


----------



## donwilwol

> It seems legit, and not the Va BS that was put out much later. It s rosewood, 11pt, and appears to have not cut wood for 35 years…
> 
> - Smitty_Cabinetshop


It followed the right guy home!


----------



## Tim457

That's pretty cool Smitty. Interesting sudden appearance of Rosewood with carving.



> Which part is good for the saw handle repair jobs, the heart (dark almost walnut color wet) or the blonde sapwood ?
> - racerglen


I've been trying to figure that out too Glen, but just comparing color to vintage saw handles I'm guessing heartwood.

Edit: Ok, here's a vintage source that says it was heartwood:
http://books.google.com/books?id=7QQ3AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA118&lpg=PA118&dq=apple+saw+handle+heart+or+sap+wood&source=bl&ots=0WiwyP3Pm9&sig=VyecILeCPHYjd6f4K1kDqqp7dE8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=NVfYU8icGceiyASDsILoCA&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=apple%20saw%20handle%20heart%20or%20sap%20wood&f=false

But this one from Blackburn tools talks about it being too hard now to get wide enough boards and he uses a mix of heartwood and sapwood:
http://www.blackburntools.com/new-tools/new-saws-and-related/new-saws-options/index.html


----------



## racerglen

Hey, thanks Tim, I'd been leading to the heartwood as well .
Now to cut, microwave and git er dun ! (not too worried about wide enough boards, this is just little pieces, although a friend did say he found larger chunks to be a PITA to work with.)


----------



## summerfi

I finished up my little Disston No. 7 with eagle medallion this morning. The medallion dates the saw to the 1860 - 1865 period.



















To quote the Disstonian Institute, "Henry Disston began etching handsaws about 1865. There are few saws with a Henry Disston [only] etch. The same year Disston started using etches on the saws, Hamilton Disston became a partner in his father's company." Thus, saws made in 1865 or later bore an etch that read Henry Disston & Son or Sons. The etch on my saw simply reads Henry Disston. It is light and hard to photograph, but it is identical to this etch from Disstonian Institute.










So my saw was made in early 1865 or possibly late 1864, and it's an uncommon saw. It's rare to be able to narrow down the manufacturing date this closely.










This little saw, made near the end of the Civil War, simply oozes history. The handle is worn and the plate has some staining and even a little pitting, but when I made a test cut this morning I couldn't help but smile. I really like this saw, and the fact it is 150 years old makes it that much better. The plate is 20" long and filed crosscut at 11 ppi. In straightening out the toothline, I was just barely able to save the 11 ppi stamp.










And for scale, here is the saw alongside my big J. Taylor rip saw.


----------



## JayT

Nice save of a great historical piece, Bob.


----------



## ToddJB

Cool research, Bob. You did a great job on the saw too!


----------



## chrisstef

That's awesome Bob. I love finds like that. Were you able to see the etch before you bought it or did it come by total surprise? I needs me an eagle medallion.


----------



## summerfi

This was an ebay saw, Stef, so I didn't really see the etch before I had the saw.


----------



## upchuck

Summerfi-
Let me join the chorus with praise for the work you have done on this saw. I mean both the work you did to the saw and the historical research that places that tool in context. It delights me to see the restoration of tools that are 150 years old. I also appreciate the generosity you've shown with your shared knowledge of saws and techniques you use to make them whole again. Your shared wisdom has helped me.
chuck


----------



## chrisstef

Right on Bob, right friggin on.


----------



## richardwootton

That's fantastic Bob! That J. Taylor is hooge!


----------



## summerfi

Thanks for the kind words guys.


----------



## Brit

Yep - Bob rocks! Always a riveting read.


----------



## Tim457

That's amazing Bob, you sure find some nice ones and treat them right.


----------



## bandit571

These four will be going on Fee-bay in a while.









Two decent ones, and two….meh. Still working on the ad for it.









Maybe start @ $20 + S&H???


----------



## ToddJB

Bandit, do you find you get more if you sell in groups?


----------



## bandit571

It tends to help with the no name saws to be with a name brand one. A "Package Deal" sort of thing. Always seem to sell a group of them. Shipping is the same with one or four saws, too.


----------



## john2005

That's a nice lookin 7 there Bob!


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Beautiful work, Bob!


----------



## ToddJB

That makes sense, Bandit


----------



## Airframer

Handle making going on here..


----------



## DonBroussard

Eric-That tote is a real stunner! How did you figure out the "hangle"?


----------



## richardwootton

Eric did you use beech for that handle?


----------



## Airframer

Don - I just followed the template from TGIAG and that pretty much determined the hangle.

Richard - I used African Mahogany.


----------



## stan3443

some saws that came home from an auction today


----------



## Wally331

Freakin sweet haul man, three thumb holes! I'll have to admit I'm a little jelly.
I fixed up this Atkins the other day, not sure the model as the etch was extremely light as Atkins always are, but its essentially a d-8. This saw was my best friends grandfathers. It still has his name written on the handle. 6pt rip filed, saws like a champ. I've become very fond of my Atkins. Something about the steel…


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Nice Stan. That auction was worth your time!


----------



## donwilwol

I'll try this again. Its either my phone or the internet eating my post.

nice auction buys. That looks like a great bunch of saws.

Wally, the Atkins came out great.

Eric, nice tote. You're going to wind up with a miter box museum!


----------



## stan3443

Wally their is one atkins thumb with a floral design


----------



## theoldfart

Nice haul Stan, looking forward to the restores.


----------



## bandit571

Remember these "Gems"?









Well, one happened to be an almost new Disston D-8, apparently one of the last Disston made ones.









Paint had clogged up the teeth on it. Got all that ugly paint off…
Well, I took that D-8 down off the hook today, a tried a crosscut with it. ME LIKEY! 
Cuts fast, cuts straight, and cuts nice & easy. I didn't even have to sharpen it.

Makes one wonder who would paint a brand new ( at the time) saw? 11ppi, according to the stamp, with and etch, no less. Like it enough that an older D8 is over on FeeBay, along with a D-7. I am keeping this D-8 around. We'll see about the other Rescue Saws, later. For now, I am a happy camper…


----------



## donwilwol

for your reading pleasure, http://www.timetestedtools.com/erik-florip--welcome-back.html


----------



## ToddJB

Don, is it suppose to end at the cliff hanger of him throwing his hands in the air after realizing his machined brass backs where crooked?


----------



## donwilwol

it doesn't end, it just keeps you wanting more and more to come.


----------



## ToddJB

grrrrrr….


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

I have a saw problem. Counted over 50 saws in the shop night before last. Is there a cure?

Signed,

I Came, I Saw, and I Sawed Some More


----------



## TobyC

Heads up.

World's Longest Yardsale

NOW 690 MILES!
From 5 Miles North of Addison, Michigan
to Gadsden, Alabama!

Countdown to the 2014 Sale ( Aug 7-10):

Link


----------



## Wally331

I finally got around to drilling out two spots on the handle and plate for slightly larger replacement screws. The saw was missing a few and the ones that were there were the very skinny early screws. So small modifications had to be made.









Its now possibly my favorite saw. She really seems to cut faster and smoother then the no.7 less set and more taper grind must help more then I thought. I am finally getting quite good at crosscut sharpening. Here is the closeup of the handle that doc wanted awhile ago. It still needs a bit of work, namely a film finish over the stain but it turned out decently.


----------



## chrisstef

No cure in sight Smitty. The only way to relieve any problems is to send me a few good ones for safe keeping.

Nice work Wally!


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

PM your new address, I have a housewarming gift for you Stef.


----------



## ToddJB

Killer job, Wally.


----------



## richardwootton

Great job Wally! That handle is truly stunning.


----------



## bandit571

Happen to have FOUR saws for sale on FeeBay right now, including a Disston D8 (first model of the skew back) and a newer D-7. A big, old Rip saw and another WS saw. Both of the Ds are crosscut 8 pointers. Ends this evening…..

$20 + S&H for four saws….


----------



## BigRedKnothead

> for your reading pleasure, http://www.timetestedtools.com/erik-florip--welcome-back.html
> 
> - Don W


Awesome stuff Don and Erik!


----------



## terryR

Awesome job, Wally!

Been gone for a while…my fault…but I'm back to learn and share the Faith. Or maybe just post pretty pictures of saws. 

Gotta post this for Stef…and many others who I assume are interested.

As of yesterday, I am now the proud owner of the beauty below:










A Disston No.7 that dates from the 1870's I'm pretty sure, recently restored and sharpened by Stef! Nice partial etch, excellent job on the lamb's tongue repair, and a fine, straight row of sharp teeth. A great save, Brother Stef!!!

Anyhow, Stef wanted to know my opinion of how the teeth actually cut. No problem…how about a quick comparison between a few cross-cutters? Namely, these 3…










From top to bottom: A 1896-1917 Disston No.12 filed with 9ppi, Stef's 1870's Disston No.7 filed 10ppi, and a 2012 LN 20" Panel Saw filed at 8ppi. Why these three? These are the sharp x-cut saws in my shop without backs.

Sorry, for not posting photos of the results, but it would really take 10 shots of the little lines I cut in wood just now…maybe a blog? Trust me, I cut some wood in the shop for the past 2 hours!

My feelings after cutting pine 1×4's, some 4/4 rough cherry, and 2×2" squares of red oak…Stef did an awesome job, and the No.7 is a keeper!

I don't have the eyes to measure set, but Stef's saw binded a LOT less than the others in the kerf. It was also easier to start. Fleam? I dunno on that one. Of course, the extra mass of the No.12 made it a faster cutter in larger woods, but I'll grab for the No.7 for 4/4 stock and thinner from now on. It's a bit less weight to muscle back and forth, and the tote repair feels solid as a rock!

Sorry, but the LN is a joke of a saw, IMO. I've ranted too many times about the plate being too flimsy for 8ppi, it cuts all over the place just from the plate bending. And the tote needs work for a $225 saw!


----------



## chrisstef

Im glad she made it safe and sound to you Terry (sorry for the extra packing peanuts lol). Im also very glad to hear that it cut well. I set the rake at 15 degrees on that one which helps out with an easier start but makes it slightly less aggressive. At 10 points its not really an aggressive saw anyway and 15 degrees is a pretty standard rake. I cant take total credit for the handle repair all though, it came to me repaired but held in place with a couple of screws that I extracted and then epoxied everything in place. That's why the lambs tongue is ever so slightly off in profile. If you ever need to touch up the finish on the handle its amber shellac.

Im super happy that it ended up in your shop where she'll be well taken care of Terry. Give her a hug for me lol.


----------



## richardwootton

Terry that's crazy to hear about the LN saw. For that much money it should glide through hardwoods!


----------



## shampeon

So I'm restoring this old saw vise, and I've got a question about attaching the leather strip that help secure the plate.









The old leather was just basically jammed into the holes. Is that how it's supposed to work? Or do you tie it off or something? I can't find any info based on a couple minutes Googling.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Never heard of leather. I'd think the holes held a file frame / guide of sorts vs. leather cord.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Three Cincinnati Saw Co. backsaws, 10" and 12" and 16" varieties.

Anyone have the 14" size? PM me… Lawl


----------



## Wally331

I snatched up a buy it now lot on eBay for a great price before many people saw it. 6 saws for $45 + free shipping.
Beautiful disston Split nut no.7.









A very nice sunken medallion thumbhole.









A big "Sheffield" handsaw. I don't know much about the brand but she will clean up nicely.









A late disston no.7 panel saw which has a perfect etch and will also clean up very nicely.









Also included were a "bluegrass" saw with a cracked handle and a nice but well used and worn plated disston no.8 with sunken medallion. All in all I think it was a great buy, I will definitely get my money back and still have some great saws to keep. One more shot of a backsaw I'm working on on the new bench. Still waiting on some thicker stock for the leg vise, but this bench is rock solid. Splayed leg club all the way!


----------



## shampeon

The leather lines the inside of the jaw. There's a recess for it on the side of the jaw, and the holes are at each end. I've left the leather strand long since the scrap was that long, and I don't know whether I should just trim it flush with the hole exit or do something else.

I suppose it's possible for the previous owner to have jerry rigged some leather in that space, but it sure looked original and to its purpose.


----------



## DocBailey

I have a few dozen saw vises from various mfrs as well as unmarked models.

I have never encountered leather, but have more than a few Wentworth vises where a rubber gasket (to dampen vibration) lies in a groove cut into the jaws.


----------



## donwilwol

Ian, did you try looking up the patent?


----------



## terryR

Ian, nice looking leather, but that sure doesn't look right for some reason? Are there holes on the opposite jaw, for attaching a file guide? A leather thong as photographed could simply be tied around the whole saw and vice, but I haven't seen that in reading old texts?

BTW, nice job on the restore…been looking ar a lot of saw vices the past month!

Wally, if any of those old beasts are filed cross, I want…


----------



## donwilwol

unfortunately the patent is for the clamp.


----------



## DanKrager

Ian, I'll blow a little smoke here, but your photo of the leather thong held in the vice makes perfect sense to me even though I've never seen or heard of one. I thinks it's pure genius. If I were "experimenting" with it, I would simply pull the thong until maybe an inch hangs out on one end and trim the other end to same. I can't foresee any forces to pull the thong out of the holder holes, but a small knot just outside the hole would surely secure it. If the groove on the inside of the jaw is not sufficient to hold the leather when the jaw is open, then I would put a bit of tension on it before tying the knot. If that still doesn't hold it in the groove, then a bit of sticky in the groove would certainly do the job. Use something reversible like a tiny strip of carpet tape, maybe hide glue (which reverses with heat or steam), hot craft glue, or even super glue (which reverses with heat or lacquer thinner). I'd be very sparing with the sticky since it doesn't have to hold much. Chances are that with care, you'll never have to replace that leather strip in your lifetime.
DanK


----------



## theoldfart

Sorry Dan but just can"t resist

"simply pull the thong until maybe an inch hangs out" !!!!!!!

If Stef or the HOG pick up on this it'll be bad, jus sayin.


----------



## DanKrager

Yah, there's all kinds of potential for the twisted in that post… 
DanK


----------



## upchuck

All-
After repairing a horn I need to add a small bit of wheat grain to the handle to match what was there. What advise on tools and technique do you recommend? Knives like chip carving? Or my tiniest gouge? Or something I haven't thought of yet?
Thanks.
chuck


----------



## comboprof

I would probably use a chip carving knife and a veining tool (or v-gouge).


----------



## terryR

^chip carver for accuracy, dremel for speed…practice…

Been cleaning the shop, sick of backsaws laying everywhere as I work…one on the drill press, one on each bandsaw, one everywhere! Had to build the Forums' 2nd or 3rd ugliest till emergently…










...made of pine and pine, assembled with just screws for later removal. Nice in that it's two feet from my bench, but is 3 slots shy of what I needed. Hmmm…will work on that…plus all these laxy full-sized saws laying around, too!


----------



## comboprof

I am so jealous of your back-saws I've been looking for them everywhere and can find any. I may have to buy a new one. I did find a couple of chisel handle saws (marples I think) but not as pretty as your tote handle saws.


----------



## terryR

Don, hit up Wally331 for a nice backsaw! Third from the right in that photo…Bubinga tote, brass back, and rip teeth that I reach for all the time. Easier to start than my LN! Paid Wally something ridiculously low like $75 for a go-to saw…just sayin'

Are you in on the current Saw Swap?

If you want a new store-bought one, have a look at Gramercy's. Worth every penny IMO.


----------



## JayT

Don K. Just take one of your straight handle saws and modify it. Airframer has done it a couple times and I did one, as well. Not too hard and you end up with a good user.

Of course, if you want a premium saw, seems like Wally is the man. Don't have one of his, but those that do sure rave about them.


----------



## handsawgeek

My kind of thread!!!


----------



## comboprof

Thanks for the info on Wally331 and the idea to just modify the saw. First I'll get what I have cleaned up and sharpened. Then decide what to do. I was just hoping in the spirit of rust-hunting to stumble on one. I could easily 
become waste deep in crosscut, rip and logging saws, but I never seem to see a back-saw. (I have 10 saws to restore now. But I also have 7 bench planes, a dozen or so chisels and a pile of screw drivers.)

I'm not in on the saw swap, because I don't think I have anything good enough or ready to swap.


----------



## Tim457

> sick of backsaws laying everywhere as I work…one on the drill press, one on each bandsaw, one everywhere!
> - terryR


That must be really rough. You do know the easy way to take care of that problem right? Hint: I'll cover the shipping. Yeah I haven't had much luck finding back saws in the wild either, Don.

Welcome to the fray, Ed.


----------



## bandit571

Have won a Crown Dovetail saw on FeeBay, will be here Saturday, or so. Will see how it is then.

Just got a pair of Mortise chisels in the mail today, might try them out tomorrow, after an After-work NAP….


----------



## chrisstef

Back saws are tricky to find in the wild. Ive only come across 2 or 3. One was a brass back and im pretty sure it was a unicorn.

Them little crown gents saws with the hot dog handle aint so bad but working 18-20 ppi teeth with a file is somethin im not lookin forward to.


----------



## theoldfart

I've found just two and one tote. A Diston and an S Biggins & Sons. The Biggins was a real fluke. The tote is a Groves & Sons. Thinking about asking Wally to make a plate for it.


----------



## racerglen

Posted this on the mite saw thread, my answer to saw handle screws that are dorks about tightning back up or loosening.









This one's a Mastercraft 4" 









Fingers to either side of the slotted head, the post onto the other side and Bob's yr unkle !


----------



## TobyC

> So I m restoring this old saw vise, and I ve got a question about attaching the leather strip that help secure the plate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The old leather was just basically jammed into the holes. Is that how it s supposed to work? Or do you tie it off or something? I can t find any info based on a couple minutes Googling.
> 
> - shampeon


Link.


----------



## lateralus819

Terry nice saws! What are they in order?


----------



## TobyC




----------



## TobyC

Bottom of page.


----------



## shampeon

Good sleuthing, Toby. Gracias.

I'll probably use some thick glue in the holes to attach the leather.


----------



## Wally331

Dang Terry, even I am jealous of your backsaw till. Looks like a good way to store them, I've been trying to think of a different way then the standard till, may just have to try that…

I'm completely willing to take on any work from you guys, just let me know what you need and I'll get you fixed up nice and quick.









A keen kutter and a "Sheffield" I fixed up the other day. They will be up for sale in a week or so.

I too haven't had much luck with backsaws in the wild. Its amazing how many complete junk saws that craftsman and the like actually sold. It seems like its one decent saw for 100 routered out blocks of wood haphazardly attached to a saw shaped plate of steel. One day…


----------



## DocBailey

Shamp

I wrote about the Wentworth rubber lining back in post 7854

I'm with Smitty on this - the holes in yours are most likely for some kind of attachment-they'd be overkill for a simple gasket


----------



## shampeon

Right, Doc. I think leather will do fine as a gasket. It definitely dampens the plate.

It's just strange that the holes go through to the ends of the recess for the gasket. If it were for an attachment, putting anything full depth in the holes would push out the rubber.


----------



## planepassion

christeff, TOF, I've only found two backsaws in the wild. A cheap one and a 16" Disston, which is my own unicorn. Handsaws galore around here. But backsaws, chisels and planes; not so much.

Wally331, it's good to see you spreading your saw wings buddy.


----------



## 12strings

What do you-all do with an handsaw that has a slightly bowed blade? (Not really kinked at any one spot, just a gentle curve)

I could actually just leave it alone and use it, but it would always bug me, and might affect the work.


----------



## bandit571

Have a "like new" Crown Dovetail saw on the way, even has it's own carrying baggie. Supposed to be "un-used" , we'lll see. Supposed to be here about Saturday's mail.

And, NO, I am NOT going to stand beside the mail box THAT long.


----------



## Wally331

The no.12 with a coat of arm-a-seal. Darkened up the handle a bit. I'm very pleased with the result, and the arm-a-seal was super easy to deal with.









Also here is a small panel saw I'm working on. 21.5 in long, 10 PPI x-cut.


----------



## Wally331

Also @ 12strings, you can try just bending the plate into an arc in the opposite direction of the bow. Often times that will usually take a slight bow out.


----------



## ToddJB

Wally that 12 is beautiful. I've got one that is in desperate need of attention. I hope it comes out 1/2 that beautiful.


----------



## Wally331

Thanks Todd, trust me a lot of work went into it 

I finished that panel saw from yesterday. Last in a set of three of slightly figured African mahogany. It was a pleasure to work with and the handles are silky smooth. All three are for sale BTW…


----------



## terryR

Wally, you NEED to stay in tool making, IMO! Those saws are beautiful! 

question about the lil DT saw finish…what is it? Looks more shiny than the other two? And, thanks for mentioning how easy that ArmorSeal (or however it's spelled) was to use. I've been window shopping online for a few finish options. Also curious if you darkened that Sapele any? It looks superb!


----------



## Mosquito

it doesn't look darkened, but the Arm-R-Seal is oil based, and will darken things a little bit. When I use a polyurethane finish, I almost always use Arm-R-Seal, unless I need it to dry faster (i.e. I only have a day or two before I need it ready to handle), then I use water based poly instead. I use a rag and just use it as a wipe on finish


----------



## ToddJB

I love Arm-R-Seal. It's idiot proof as far as finishes go, and is tough as nails. I typically just take any shop rag, dip it in Mineral Spirits so the rag doesn't absorb the Arm-R-Seal. And then dip in finish and wipe on. Cake Walk.

Though I've not thought about using it on handles. I'm not sure I would like it on a handle. My personal preference with handles is to feel the wood, not a finish, so I typically just oil it up and wax it. But in doing so I miss out on the super sexy gloss of a Wally saw.


----------



## Mosquito

What I did on my saw handle was a couple coats of Danish Oil, then 2 coats of Shellac. It kept it from building too thick with only 2, then I waxed it. On the next saw I may try less shellac, so I get more of a grain filler rather than a film finish, though it's not bad on my current saw


----------



## comboprof

This is my first attempt of saw restoring. Two found in the wild straight handle back-saws.

Before:










After:











The blade of the top saw is 10" by 1.5" and has 17 ppi
The blade of the bottom saw is 10" by 1.625" and has 15 ppi.

Anyone know who made them? There are no marks.

The top saw has some copper looking coating on part of the back stiffener. It is half worn off particularly near the handle end. Should I just grind the rest off. It did not come off with 180 grit. Should I just repaint it with a copper paint? Should I leave it alone? I hope to make these into useable dovetail saws.

My real question of the day is what equipment do I need to sharpen these saws and other saws?

file size (What should I get and where is a good place to buy one.)
Saw set (What should I get? Can I get just one for these and less ppi saws.)
Saw vice (I suppose I should just build one. particularly for larger saws.)
paper filing guide. (Should I make my own or does someone have a tool that generates the right pdf?)
Magnifying lens on a flexible stand and good lighting.

Is that the list?

P.S. I have had that stool with me for 59 years (all of my life) I use it in my shop now.


----------



## chrisstef

Disston 68 is one model with a hot dog handle like that combo. crown currently makes one. It's most likely been reproduced throughout the years by a bunch of different companies so figuring the maker may be difficult but you might able to research it by the style of the handle.

That 17 ppi saw will need a needle file. You could probably be able to get away with a 4" or 5" xx slim for the 15 ppi.

Setting those teeth are gonna be tough, youll probably have to alter the hammer on a set by filing it down as the wider hammer will want to bend 2 teeth at once. Usually a saw will have enough set that you wont need to do that for a few sharpenings so you may not need to set it.

Filing guide - I wouldn't sweat it, youre going to file those rip and at that ppi they'll crosscut no problem. That's to say that you wont be filing the teeth completely off. I believe that TGIAG.com has paper templates if you need one.

Magnifying glass - depends on your vision. I can get away with up to 15 ppi without magnification. But I haven't gone any higher than that and I cant do more than about 15 minutes at a time without going cross eyed.


----------



## jordanp

Blue grass also made a really nice gents saw like those


----------



## jordanp

This is what I did with my rusty hot dog handled blue grass saw..


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Maybe I'm a knucklehead, but I can't tell any difference between Arm-R-Seal and miwax wipe-on poly…...except the price tag.

Todd likes to "feel the wood."


----------



## ToddJB

> Maybe I m a knucklehead, but I can t tell any difference between Arm-R-Seal and miwax wipe-on poly…...except the price tag.


Charles Neil states that Arm-R-Seal has a lot more urethane than the others which makes the end result a lot more durable, and also accounts for the price hike. I've not tested this, but the dude been around the block and isn't endorsed so he seems pretty trustworthy.



> Todd likes to "feel the wood."


Can't deny it.


----------



## Brit

*Don K* - A few months back I restored and sharpened a 19ppi saw. I shaped the teeth with a Vallorbe needle file cut 4 and sharpened the teeth with a Vallorbe needle file cut 6 after setting the teeth. I used the cork from a bottle of Cava for a file handle. The needle files were so much smoother than a cut 2 needle file or a 4" double extra slim file. To set the teeth I used an Eclipse No.77, the one on the left in the following photo. Eclipse No.77s with the red paint have a smaller plunger or pin.


----------



## DocBailey

Wow, Andy, that came out nice!


----------



## comboprof

*Andy* I actually have read your blog on this. Where can I buy these files?


----------



## planepassion

Viva la cava Andy! That's some good stuff. And a beautiful job on that backsaw.


----------



## chrisstef

Combo - Leevalley.com has the files you need.


----------



## DocBailey

wwbuff

This forum is for aficianados of hand tools-- *NOT* a place for you to advertise-take your spam somewhere else.


----------



## chrisstef

wwbuffmynuts.


----------



## bandit571

Arrived today! Crown Sheffield Gents saw, NEW in BAG! Never used! Rosewood handle, brass back!









Did I say Rosewood handle









8" Gent's Saw. Haven't counted the SHARP teeth yet. Also arrived in the past week









a pair of 3/16" Mortise Chisels. The short one is a W. Butcher marked one, the other unknown brand. Been using the long one for a bit on work. Not quite NIB stuff, but they will do….


----------



## Brit

*Don K* - Not sure where you'll get them in the US, but try Googling jeweller's supply stores. They use those cuts I believe.


----------



## comboprof

> *Don K* - Not sure where you ll get them in the US, but try Googling jeweller s supply stores. They use those cuts I believe.
> 
> - Brit


I find a "Grobet Swiss® 7-3/4 Needle File and a Fine Saw Set from Lee Valley. Will these do? I think they might.

I have also discovered that theres an old 80+ years gentleman who was the town saw-sharpener and have been advised to drop in on him. He apparently has all the the equipment and no apprentice to give/sell them to. He also has some sort of automated machinery. I'll check it out before purchasing new I think.


----------



## theoldfart

DonK, that's a friend you want to make. A lot of the old timers would be pleased to pass on their vocation to the next generation. Our generation is going to miss out on a lot of skills and have to reinvent the wheel at some point!


----------



## comboprof

I agree … except I too am old but only 59 …. I'm not sure I'm the one he should "pass it on to" (as a bussiness), but I am interested to learn.


----------



## theoldfart

Hmmmm, I'm 62 +, too old? NEVER!


----------



## Brit

Yeah, growing old is mandatory…

...but at least growing up is optional. )


----------



## theoldfart

Andy, nuts! you mean I didn't have to grow up? not fair!


----------



## racerglen

Damn, you kids just keep ragging about how old you are and Ill take a willow switch to your britches.. (66 in less than 2 months) AND still working, wife says find something to do or you can't retyre..hrumph..

And, I've missed you Andy, time you were back !


----------



## theoldfart

^ keep huffin old timer or we'll catch up to you


----------



## comboprof

The alternative to not getting older is much worse. So I am happy each year I am older.


----------



## Tim457

Andy using a finer cut needle file for the sharpening is brilliant. You should hold out for a higher salary from LJ. Finding a source for those in the states might be the trick. On our side of the pond we don't typically have nearly as many different cuts of files.

Some sites do list the 4" xxslim for up to 20 tpi, but you're going to have relatively shallower and more rounded gullets the smaller teeth you go.


----------



## TobyC

> wwbuff
> 
> This forum is for aficianados of hand tools-- *NOT* a place for you to advertise-take your spam somewhere else.
> 
> - DocBailey


wwbuff

Who's that?


----------



## Brit

wwbuff has been removed now I think Toby. They just posted spam, so Doc sent them packing.


----------



## TobyC




----------



## chrisstef

Hows the shop comin along Andy?


----------



## Brit

Slowly Stef. I got another layer of insulation on the top half of the walls and am in the process of boarding that out now. I'll post some more photos once that's done, then it will be on to boarding out the roof.


----------



## comboprof

More questions.


I've noticed that on several of the saws I've collected the top horn of the tote is chipped, partially broken off, but otherwise the tote is in good shape. I see three options. 
(A) Saw it off square and glue on a replacement horn. 
(B) Sand out the breakage and shape it.
(C) Make a new tote.
What is the preferred treatment? 
How do I identify what kind of saw I have? Before reading here I thought there were only 6 types of saws:
rip, cross-cut, miter, bow, pruning, logging. Now I see there are others, for example panel? What exactly is a panel saw? More precisely, please point me to the appropriate sources to read. 
This may seem silly, but how do I know if a saw needs to be sharpened. I've picked up a few and some seem to me to saw just fine to me, but some bind do to surface rust. 
As you know I have picked up a collection of possibly used 3-square files of various sizes. How can I tell if they are sharp enough for saw sharpening? How do I determine which file to use for a given saw? Do I just set in the teeth and see if it fits and only uses 1/2 the file. (Also noting the rake(?), the angle across the saw.) Is it possible to determine the file cut?

Sorry for all the questions. But I am trapped inside out of the shop keeping our Beagle-Basset under control while my wife teaches archery to 4H kids. I'd rather be restoring some saws.


----------



## chrisstef

Combo - this: http://lumberjocks.com/Brit/blog/36332

Saddle up with some snacks, a cold beverage or 2 and a notepad. Andy(Brit) put together an awesome video and should answer everything. Hope the dog likes to cuddle


----------



## Tim457

Others will have better answers, but here's a stab
1) a combination depending on the situation.
2) searching, asking, and reading. A panel saw is a shorter hand saw for cutting panels. Sorry not having luck finding the link where I read that.
3) A sharp saw feels more prickly to the fingertips. If it cuts well enough it's fine. The surface rust is a separate issue that will help the saw cut better if removed.
4) Yes the 1/2 trick is pretty good. Some saw files will come to sharper corners and some will have more obvious wider faces for the gullets. The sharper the gullets the more space for sawdust but the more risk the teeth will sheer at the sharp corner. As for sharp files, you can hear the sound of a dull file on a saw, it's obvious. First try brushing out the filings because a file filled with filings also sounds bad. You can also run your fingers down a file to get an idea of the sharpness of the file. I'm sure it's possible to determine the file cut but short of seeing the writing on the file or seeing obvious things like double cut or counting the teeth per inch I don't know how.


----------



## comboprof

Thanks *chrisstef* I read the part that Mads directed me to, but alas I have not read all of Andy's blog. I guess I will ow.

Thanks, *Tim*. I suppose the question abut the tote is whether or not to preserve historical accuracy or to just make the saw a comfortable (and pretty) user. I put the files into evapo-rust to makes sure all rust was gone and then brushed them to remove any thing that might be in their teeth. They seem better to me, but I am no expert. Maybe some day I will be. I'm still learning.

I hope to post my next two saw restorations by a week from today. (If the universe lets me get at them.)


----------



## Wally331

Terry, the finish on call three saws above is the same, wipe on poly, however just in different amounts of finish. The DT saw probably has 4-5 coats whereas the other two have only 3. Trying to find the right balance between satin and glossy as well as the feel of it. They are all silky smooth, just a matter of preference.

I just started working with the arm-a-seal, like on that no.12. I've got a few more saw restores I'll be trying it out on as well. Plus another new backsaw 

Andy, how often do you have to use oxalic acid? You have a great knack for getting some beautiful color from those apple handles. Glad to hear there is at least some progress on the shop!


----------



## Brit

Wally - I've only used it on a couple of saws I think and both had apple handles. Apple seems to go black in places for some reason and the oxalic acid gets rid of the black patches and evens out the colour. All my other old saws have beech handles since they originated from this side of the pond. The colour comes largely from 2 coats of BLO, followed by 3 thin coats of oil-based satin varnish thinned 3 to 1 with pure turpentine. After the last coat is totally dry, I lightly rub it out with 0000 steel wool and then wax it.

Although I've often tried, I don't think you can rush a good finish.


----------



## bandit571

Giving this old saw a try out on 45 cuts









Miter cuts for a dust seal for a lid of some kind









One more to do. It stays on the back edge of the box. Maybe add a return on each end?


----------



## terryR

Andy, your work is gorgeous as always! 

Can I beg what brand and colour of oil-based varnish you used on that Apple?

+1 to Apple turning black so easily. When I've used Liberon wood bleach, I've had good results removing the dark stains, but the pretty apple colour goes away as well.


----------



## bandit571

Special Saw til is done









Just a lid for a box









Used that $10 scrollsaw to make the wood "hardware" to hold the saws in place.

Think this will work?


----------



## Wally331

Looking good bandit, that chest must be friggen huge! Full sized saws with a few inches to spare.

Have any of you used shellac on saw handles? Anyone know what the big companies like disston or Atkins used to use? I'd like to give shellac a try buy am worried that its less durable then a good oil based poly. The only benefit is quick drying and recoating. I figure it would be a decent finish for a workbench.


----------



## racerglen

Wally I'm thinking varnish was the finish de jour then, I've scraped enough of it off over the years, a lot ready to flake off on its own.
My refinishes these days are BLO and wax but in past have also used polly, I prefer the gloss,. then knock it back a tad with steel wool or a scotchbrite.
I have used shelac on a couple of things (tool handles, not saws ) but wasn't satisfied with the result.


----------



## bandit571

Lately, been using a stain by Minwax called Natural. Seems to do ok









Seems to bring out the best in the wood. Haven't topcoated any yet.


----------



## chrisstef

Ive been using shellac Wally. Something like a 1# cut and a sort of french polish. Its been giving me a softer feel that i like. I find it to be somewhere between blo and poly in terms of feel.

Think i got jobbed a little bit on a $25 S&J from the bay. At 13 1/2" it must have been cut down over the years. Cool little saw but just a bit shorter than i had anticipated lol. Most likely ill clean it up and sharpen it and give it to my son as his first user. Split nuts, lambs tongue, chipped medallion and stamped logo on the plate.


----------



## Tim457

Wally I'd have to dig up my sources to be sure, but I've read of vintage saw handles having shellac on them. I even think it was standard for at least a period of time.


----------



## theoldfart

Drive by find yesterday at a roadside tag sale


















No etch, filed cross cut maybe 10 or so. I think it's a Diston 7. 19" plate and the nib is intact.

Edit, $2 !


----------



## chrisstef

Solid pickup OF!


----------



## theoldfart

Thanks Stef, the thing looked like a pumpkin when I picked it up from rust bloom. I also have the chip from the horn. Any thoughts on it being a 7?


----------



## chrisstef

Looks like a 7 or a D7 to me brother. Not sure how many saws disston made with a lambs tongue outside of the 7.


----------



## Brit

*Terry* - The varnish I use is nothing special. Not sure if you have it in the US, but it is made by Ronseal. I use the Satincoat.

http://www.ronseal.co.uk/products/ultra-tough-varnish

Generally I just mix 3 teaspoonfuls of varnish with 1 teaspoonful of pure turpentine in the lid of an aerosol or similar sized container and apply it with a paper towel wrapped around my first finger. I cover the container with clingfilm between coats to prevent it skinning over. That is more than enough to put three coats on a saw handle. I slide a hotel card key with a hole punched in one corner into the handle's kerf. That gives me something to hold onto while I coat the handle and the hole lets me hang it on a bent wire coat hanger to dry. If the card key is too loose in the kerf, add strips of masking tape to it until it is a snug fit. I apply the varnish thinly and quickly so it has time to flow out. It is important not to overwork it.


----------



## chrisstef

Can anyone offer insight as to when saw makers stopped stamping saw plates and started etching them? Ive read disston stopped around 1865 but wasnt so sure about the S&J that i just got being that its not an american saw.


----------



## Brit

According to the timeline on Backsaw.net, acid etching on saw plates was introduced around 1850. Of course, that doesn't mean that the stamping of saw plates by S&J stoppped at the same time.


----------



## comboprof

Andy thanks for sharing Backsaw.net. It is a very interesting site and a lot of work has been put into it.


----------



## ndmrslp

Maybe one of the hand saw gurus that frequent this topic can help me identify a backsaw that I bought at a garage sale this weekend. It's 14" long and has no medallion or stamping on the back. It has a readable etch, but I can't find reference to anything similar online. I believe it says "Cast Steel" and "Warranted" in an arc around the emblem, and "J. B. Bettle" across the center. The J isn't visible in the photo, but I briefly saw it while cleaning rust off with a razor blade. Apparently I took a few strokes too many because then it disappeared. It has a dent in the plate just to the right of the etch that I'd like to fix, but given my sorry saw repair skills I wouldn't want to try that if it was somehow rare or valuable. Thanks!


----------



## ndmrslp

Not sure how I missed this, but I took another look and I'm pretty sure there is an 'S' at the end of the name, making it "J. B. Bettles". I actually do see a couple references to that name, but no real info. Anyone know more details about "Bettles" saws?


----------



## TobyC

Looks early 20th century American, other than that, nada.


----------



## TobyC

Read the paragraph under F. A. Nellegar Company.

Hardware store saw?


----------



## Wally331

Hmm, I haven't heard of a bettles saw, its likely that it was made for a hardware store owned by a j.b. bettles. It was pretty common for hardware stores to get saws "expressly" made for them, which essentially just means they were specially etched.

Anyways, I finished a nice 12 inch saw today. First saw with my turned screws. Turned out very nice but I need to address a slight bend in the plate.


















Going to start on a new project. A set of three saws, disston patterns. A no.12, a no.7, and a D-8, or in my case a C.L.-8. Almost got the no. 12 handle done. It was surprisingly quick and easy. I'm going to use a plays from tgiag for these and perhaps buy screws from Erik. I'm a sucker for any sunken medallion saw…


----------



## ndmrslp

*TobyC*: Thanks for the link. That was one of the references I found, but since the person listed was just an officer of some kind I thought it could be a coincidence. What I hadn't noticed the first time I saw it was that they were located in Chicago. Seems like more than a coincidence now. A bit more searching revealed that his name was Joseph and he was secretary and director with Wells & Nellegar. I enjoyed the 1894 announcement of their new catalog, which describes it as "beautifully printed, handsomely illustrated and strongly bound in half morocco, arranged to lie flat when opened at any place" 

*Wally331*: Wow, that saw is beautiful! Do you (or others) ever stamp your name in the back or add an etch?


----------



## Wally331

Thanks very much! I have not yet added any etches or stamps to my saws, but Bob (summerfi) has experimented with them. I'm kind of in a bind as I will be off to college in a year. Its not really worth it for me to setup a website and such, just getting a reputation started and then have to stop for 4 or more years. At the same time I try not to advertise much on ljs because its just doesn't seem right. I'll have etches and medallions eventually…..

Anyways I roughed out two more handles today, for the no.7 x-cut, and for the no.7 rip which is similar to a no.8. No.12 handle turned out great and was a lot quicker then expected. I believe the wood is either African mahogany, or sapele. Either way its a different species from that other set of three I had made. Can't wait to get the plates for these puppies.


----------



## ndmrslp

Oh, I didn't realize you were planning to sell them. Regardless, if I could build a saw like that I'd stamp my name on it even if I was keeping it, just because it would be so incredibly cool.


----------



## comboprof

Where are you buying the brass sex bolts for the saw handles?


----------



## Wally331

Usually I make them myself from brass bar stock and threaded rod screwed and soldered together. Gonna purchase some from LJ Erikf for this run of saws though.


----------



## comboprof

Thanks, I did see web instructions on how to do that. Seems easy enough. I finnaly found some at lee valley. I only need 4 so … probably will get those.


----------



## Wally331

What is your guys opinion between the stained and non stained handles? Usually I wouldn't be staining mahogany, however I almost feel like it looks more fitting.


----------



## richardwootton

Hmmm, that's tough, I'd have to see a shot after finish is applied. Typically I am not a fan of stain, but the one on the right looks fantastic with stain!


----------



## Mosquito

I would agree with Richard. I like the stained one, but it will probably change once finish is applied over it. On my panel saw I used Sapele, with Danish Oil followed by shellac, and the color turned out great. But then Sapele is also a little darker to begin with.


----------



## ToddJB

The mahogany will naturally darken up a lot over a couple of years.


----------



## terryR

Andy, Thanks for detailing your finish techniques! Been without internet for a few days…

Wally, I think I prefer the stained sapele or mahogany? I bet both look gorgeous with a clear finish and brass hardware added! What color stain did you use?

Sorry for all the stain questions lately, guys, but I have no experience with them and want to make vintage and new woods blend seamlessly.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

After adding a missing part or two, I finally have my miter box dialed in. Thanks to LJs DocBailey, AirFramer, and Wally for your help. I enjoy using it.


----------



## ToddJB

That's a beauty


----------



## richardwootton

Great job on the collaborative effort there Red! I really should get a mitre box, they seem pretty indispensable for a hand tool shop.


----------



## DocBailey

BRK
That is one fine-looking setup.


----------



## ndmrslp

Nice Red! I like the saw especially. Much nicer looking than the one I got with my Millers Falls box.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Thanks guys. I have found there are times when it's just as efficient to bust this baby out as it is to fire up the tablesaw. Better yet, my kids can use it. The bench hook on the base works nicely.

If it weren't for ya'lls help and influence I have no doubt it would still be buried in the bottom shelf of that antique shop.

Jim B- Welcome to Ljs. The saw is a warranted superior. The handle was toast. I sent it to LJ Wally. He sharpened it and made me a new handle. She's a champ now.


----------



## planepassion

BRK, congratulations on your new miterbox. I think you'll learn to love it.

Wally, that handle looks spot on.


----------



## chrisstef

Came across this lil gal for $10 this morning. Looks like a beech handle under that sweet orange paint. I cant seem to recall seeing an Atkins with a lambs tongue though. Any info out there on this one gang?


----------



## upchuck

chrisstef-
Matt from "The Saw Blog" in December of 2011 has one Atkins with a lamb's tongue in his for sale blog. Yours is one butt ugly saw. I look forward to seeing what you do to it. What sort of tti/ppi does it have now and what will it have when you are done?
chuck


----------



## chrisstef

She's far from pretty chuck but I think she'll clean up all right. The paints flaking off pretty good and it appears there's no other finish behind it so that's a bonus. It sits as a 7ppi rip, 20" panel saw and will probably remain that way. No busted teeth and it looks like its about full plate.


----------



## donwilwol

you gonna try and match that orange/peach color? It must be original!


----------



## chrisstef

You know it Don. I think its a mixture of safety orange and doo doo brown.


----------



## GMatheson

Got a package from ErikF today. He hooked me up with a fully sharpened brass backed 30×5" mitresaw kit.










Just needs a handle now.

Should I use the zebrawood or the lacewood?


----------



## Brit

*Wally* - those handles are amazing. I hope my totes come out half as good as those once I get around to shaping them.
*Red* - Nice box - not wait that doesn't sound right )
*Terry* - You're welcome.
*Stef* - Do your thang. I think I'd be tempted to thin the outer faces of the top and bottom horns and add a bit more shape to that lamb's tongue. That would make all the difference.


----------



## GMatheson

.


----------



## ErikF

Greg- Glad they made it there safe! I am a fan of the zebrawood…reminds me of bocote and bocote looks great with brass.


----------



## Brit

Personally, I'd go with the Lacewood Greg.


----------



## TobyC

Some Atkins did have lambs toungues.

Here.#


----------



## grfrazee

@GMat - I'm voting for lacewood. Zebrawood would look odd in my opinion, plus it splinters when worked across the grain.


----------



## richardwootton

Greg you're going to love that saw! I like the zebrawood with the stripes running horizontally, if you can make it work. It's funny, I have two boards that both look just like what you have there, but I was told they were marble wood and leopard wood. I don't know if they're related or not.


----------



## GMatheson

I'm probably leaning towards the lacewood (or leopard wood) because my dirty mitts usually make a mess of lighter colored handles and the lacewood does have some pretty fancy grain patterns on it


----------



## chrisstef

Much thanks Toby.


----------



## TobyC

Did that hunk of paint just pop off the label screw?


----------



## Mosquito

I like the lacewood too, Greg


----------



## chrisstef

Toby - It took minimal coaxing with a golf tee while i was sitting in the parking lot waiting for lunch but yea it pretty much popped right off.


----------



## chrisstef

Looks like ive got a No. 54 Atkins.

Heres a pretty good resource i came upon. 
http://www.mvr1.com/atkinssaws2.html


----------



## TobyC

Is there a etch?

Can't wait to see that one brought back to life.

The paint looks like it was put on over the original finish, I would try to flake most of it off with a pocket knife. (carefully)


----------



## Brit

...but *Stef*, the catalog says that the No.54 is a "A high grade saw for high grade workmen." You'd better give it back mate. LOL. Just kidding.


----------



## chrisstef

Lol. Well played Andy. Ill have to get the saw for top tier workmen.

Its going to be a little bit before i get around to dialing that one in. We pick up and move next week. Ive got a lot of gear to sift through to find my supplies needed. Its amazing the crap one accumulates over time.


----------



## comboprof

So I woke up one morning with a "brilliant" Idea. I could use a boot tray to soak saws blades in Evapo-rest. The one from Wal-Mart fit two 28" saw blades and minimized the amount of Evapo-rust used. The texture of the the tray aided in getting the solution to the saw blade bottom. I thought this was a good idea until I saw the result:










I never saw metal so black. I went at the saws blades with P600, to preserve the etching. Unfortunately
the etching on the bottom saw disappeared but the fortunately the etching on the top saw appeared. I then moved to coarser and finer grits as I found necessary grits, being carful to not lose the revealed etching.










Sheffield saw works.

I also refinished the totes. After a complete by hand sanding the top horn of the top saw was repaired with mahogany, stained with mix-wax walnut Gel-stain and then given a couple of coats of BLO. I presume over time the mahogany will darken. The bottom saw was only given a couple of coats of BLO. Here are some close ups.




























Note the irregular shaped teeth.

Both saws cut well. Bottom saw is 4 tpi the top is 8 ppi. Can some one tell me why there is an 8 stamped on the bottom (4 tpi) saw? (There is a J stamped on the blade under the handle too.)

So this is my start on saws, please advise me so that I may become better. I'm off to build a buffing and grinding station.


----------



## Brit

The 8 means 8ppi (point per inch), so that is how many teeth the saw originally had. Don't know about the 'J' though.


----------



## comboprof

> The 8 means 8ppi (point per inch), so that is how many teeth the saw originally had. Don t know about the J though.
> 
> - Brit


 That is what I thought. I was surprised it was only 4 when I measured. But I guess it was recut/sharpened and suppose that is why
the teeth are not cut perfectly.


----------



## Wally331

Thanks for the comments on the saw handles. They should be nice saws, even without taper grind. Going with bolts from erik and plates from tgiag. Its gonna be nice to not tooth them by hand. I figure that for the time it takes to hand tooth a plate, plus cost of files, and inconsistencies, its better to buy a pretty toothed blade. I've found that you can make non lambs tongue handles very quickly. My goal is fast efficient production of affordable yet high quality saws.

Anyways, I worked on a little disston panel saw today. Nice clean plate, but pitted where something dripped or was stores on top of it. Good apple handle as well, but I HD to cut off and repair the bottom section, and a small chip on the top horn.



























I love working with apple, I'd really like to get ahold of some, or at least some wider quarter sawn cherry.


----------



## richardwootton

Looks great man! I would love some QS cherry in my lumber stacks. If you stumble upon any, let me know!


----------



## Wally331

Here is a little dovetail saw I'm working on for grfrazee aka Glenn. Bloodwood and brass.









Obviously the screws need to be fitted but you get the idea.


----------



## grfrazee

Wow, that's looking great! I can't wait to try it out!


----------



## August

Ok Wally here it goes


















Ok for the second saw


















Now for the third saw


----------



## Wally331

The first two are very good saws and look to be in good shape. They will clean up very nicely. The first saw is around ~100 years old. The second one is very old, most likely 1870's to 1880's.
The final saw looks to be an OK saw. It's probably from the last years where disston was producing reasonably quality saws. I believe the quality of the steel was still good, and it will make a good user, not very collectable though. Its up to you if you want a bigger saw with the smaller tooth count. They are good for thinner stock or especially for cutting plywood cleanly.


----------



## August

Ok co that's what I wanted to Hear so the last saw will go back in my wall as a decoration I'll be sending you the 2 saw thanks for fast reply


----------



## summerfi

I'd like to share this test run of saw medallion laser etching with you guys. I bought two 1" medallions from Erik for the test. There is a guy who lives literally a stone's throw from me who does laser etching, and I gave him the medallions and my logo image to see what he could do. He messed up the first run, and he took it upon himself to sand off the images and do it again. Unfortunately he used too coarse of sandpaper and sanded in a linear pattern rather than a circular pattern as when they are chucked in a drill press. Still, it shows potential. He normally builds a jig to get the item positioned exactly, but these he did sort of freehand. As you can see, they aren't perfectly centered. I'm going to tweak my design a little for the next run. The outside circle doesn't really add anything, and if I eliminate it, it would be harder to tell if the centering isn't perfect. I also want to make the letters a little larger and/or less bold so they are clearer. I'm pleased with how the elk image looks.

So what does this cost? He charges $25 for setup, including making the jig. Each time I talk to him, he seems to quote me a different price for etching the medallions. First he said $2 each, then $3 each, and tonight he said $10 minimum fee for up to 6 medallions. I think any of those is quite reasonable, so I'm not too concerned about price at this point. When I picked these up tonight, I took him a brass back to etch. I'll be anxious to see how that turns out.

I'm interested in hearing you guys opinions and suggestions on this.


----------



## Mosquito

August, those first two are indeed good saws. You seem to have good taste (very agreeable to my own lol)

-

Bob, those medallions look awesome, but is it possible to make the font either larger, or narrower (if that makes sense)? They're not hard to read right now, but I'm curious what they might look like after use for a few years. The image looks sweet hough


----------



## August

> August, those first two are indeed good saws. You seem to have good taste (very agreeable to my own lol)
> 
> -
> 
> Bob, those medallions look awesome, but is it possible to make the font either larger, or narrower (if that makes sense)? They re not hard to read right now, but I m curious what they might look like after use for a few years. The image looks sweet hough
> 
> - Mosquito


Yeah I know right LOL


----------



## summerfi

Thanks Mos. I'm cursed with a long last name, but I want to try making the letters either slightly larger or thinner. I think they would be clearer than way. It's hard to tell what this will look like after a few years wear, but the image does seem to be integrated (melted?) into the brass. There is actually a ceramic coating that turns black from the laser to form the image. I'm thinking it will be fairly durable.


----------



## ErikF

Bob- Looks good! I agree with you about possibly dropping the outer circle…if you wanted to keep the bordered look I could make a few sunken medallions to try out. It might also be beneficial in protecting the image. What is the depth of the etch itself and can you take a close up?


----------



## richardwootton

I really like the idea of the sunken medallion, similar to old medallions but with your bad a$$ logo!


----------



## richardwootton

I'm also wondering if a different font might help make for the text to be a bit clearer. It might be worth exploring a couple different options.


----------



## summerfi

Erik, here is the best my camera can do at a closeup. There is really no depth to the etch. It is at the surface, consisting of black particles of ceramic embedded in the brass. Leaving a lip around the edge would help protect the etch for sure, but would of course mean the image is a little smaller. I'm thinking the image will be reasonably durable. Much more so than if it was, for example, painted or screen printed on.


----------



## August

Bob you might have to buy some of the laser engraver I repo???


----------



## summerfi

I just might be interested August. Keep me in mind.


----------



## ErikF

Bob, thanks for the closeup. I'm curious to see what he can come up with using different fonts…I also received 24" of 1" round brass stock today so let me know if you need some more medallions. I have to run a few off for Wally so it would be convenient to do a few more while I'm setup.


----------



## summerfi

PM sent Erik.


----------



## Wally331

Those looks awesome Bob, I may have to get in contact with him . Is that as fine as his engraver can make images? I wonder if you could use a thinner font and it would come out a bit clearer. Loving the elk! Now you gotta get "Cast Steel" and "Warranted" engraved on your backs. Is is possible to engrave directly onto a saw plate? or is the steel to tough?

August, everything sounds good. I can't wait to sharpen em up.

Mahogany and Bloodwood anyone?


----------



## summerfi

Wally - Yes, he says he can laser etch steel. I'll be trying that eventually.


----------



## richardwootton

Those both look fantastic Wally! Are they mahogany and bloodwood respectively?


----------



## August

> I just might be interested August. Keep me in mind.
> 
> - summerfi


I'll put you done on my roster list .


----------



## August

> Those looks awesome Bob, I may have to get in contact with him . Is that as fine as his engraver can make images? I wonder if you could use a thinner font and it would come out a bit clearer. Loving the elk! Now you gotta get "Cast Steel" and "Warranted" engraved on your backs. Is is possible to engrave directly onto a saw plate? or is the steel to tough?
> 
> August, everything sounds good. I can t wait to sharpen em up.
> 
> Mahogany and Bloodwood anyone?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Wally331


Well I I'm happy with of what I got from you I wish there was a feedback like ar15.com
Where you can leave feedback.
Anyway ill pm you tomorrow thanks again


----------



## robertb574

Bob - On the medallion I would try the following to see how it looks.

Drop the outer circle and the "B." or change the "B." to "BOB" (if this what the B is). Shorten the stag's right antler a bit by taking out a diameter's worth out of the long branch.

When I worked in a graphic shop - In the computer I used to make several slightly different variations and see how they looked side by side - and then picked one to make. Or printed several versions on paper to compare before printing on the more expensive vinyl printer.

You have done the hard work already and have something that looks good and stands out. You may even decide it does not need any more fine tuning.


----------



## donwilwol

Bob the medallions look great. Maybe try to turn the elk to make it more cenmetrical, shorten Montana to the 2 ltr designation and change the B to Bob?

Just some ideas. It still looks good as us though.


----------



## terryR

Bob, the Medallions are beautiful. A very professional touch to your saws! I wouldn't change much at all…maybe just moving the elk a bit? Heck, send me one, and I'll clean it once a week to see how long the etch lasts. I'm pretty sure I don't have an Elk Medallion Saw in the till, so hurry and get your kinks worked out… 

August, bud, please remember me, too, if you get some engraving equipment at a good price! I've wanted to learn engraving and etching for a year, but hard to justify the costs for the few tools I make. But, I can see YOU GUYS as potential customers now! LOL.

Trying to get past the fear of filing the brass backs like custom knives, after the 3" test piece came out better than I expected!


----------



## ToddJB

Bob's setting the bar. For the etch itself, I think it looks a little muddy. I agree trying a narrower text might work. Also I think that perhaps dropping the back ear on the elk might help clear it up a little. I personally don't think you should move the elk image though. I like it where it's at.

As for cost, would it be that difficult to set up your own stamping or casting system? I would think (not super informed) that brass would be fairly easy to either mold or stamp.


----------



## August

Hey that TerryR LOL
No problem I'm actually going to talk to boss today and ask.


----------



## summerfi

Todd, I've looked into stamping medallions. You need a stamp (a few hundred $ to have made) and a BAP (big a$$ press). The normal shop press of 20 tons or so won't cut it. You need one of at least a couple hundred tons. That's what the people who stamp coins use. The coin people will make medallions for you, but the cost is prohibitive unless you plan to make a large volume of saws.

The old medallions were cast, and that's still a possibility. You could have it done, but that also would be cost prohibitive. You could do it yourself, but you would need an original pattern to make the molds and the equipment to melt and pour the brass. I don't know much about casting, and I'm not willing to make the investment for a low volume operation.

I think it would be cool if someone did get into casting medallions though, because they could make reproductions of all the old American and British medallions. There would probably be a decent market for those.


----------



## ToddJB

Good info, Bob. I was basing my info off seeing a former neighbors set up. He made mid-evil armor, weapons and coins. He used a 50 ton press from Harbor Freight for his coin stamping, but looking it up now it's about $800. I didn't know Harbor Freight sold anything that expensive! I assumed his set up was much more economical, but it turns out he had some serious coin (get it?) invested into his set up.

Pics or it didn't happen:


----------



## DanKrager

Bob, When I worked at Josten's jewelry in the late 1970's we stamped medallions all day long, the biggest press was a 50 ton hydraulic. (I know where that one is…) They also used drop hammers and the old vertical screws with BAF (big flywheel) on top. I remember fiddling with one of those and forgot to step back after slinging one of the handles…
A drop hammer will stamp just about anything, and I'm betting you can find one for near junk price if you can find jewelry machinery exchanges. 
Farmers down here commonly have a 50 ton press in their shops…just sayin'
DanK


----------



## summerfi

For those of you who may be interested in British saws, a long awaited new book is about to be released that will become THE treatise on British saws and saw makers. The 700 page book is *British Saws and Saw Makers From 1660* by Simon Barley. While the book is not inexpensive, it will no doubt become viewed as a classic and retain it's value. There is more information on the book and how to order it here. I've already ordered mine.


----------



## theoldfart

Well he finally got it done, thanks for the link Bob.


----------



## Tim457

Wow, that sounds like a good one and actually really reasonable for what it is. I've never seen a British saw anywhere around me though unfortunately. Maybe that book and a little more digging will be just the thing.


----------



## Wally331

I can't wait to see that book, should be good inspiration.

Speaking of British saws, I picked up my second one this week. Part of a saw lot on the bay. The pictures were poor but I guessed it might be a very early disston. Instead it is a nice spear and jackson. Plate is 8 inches tall. Lots of steel haha..

















Pretty crusty but it has all its screws. I'm scared to restore any split nut saws..


----------



## richardwootton

That's a beauty Wally!


----------



## summerfi

That looks like a dandy S&J, Wally. What about it scares you? You're up to the task.


----------



## Brit

Can't wait to see what you do with that beauty Wally.


----------



## terryR

Bob, Thanks for the link on an awesome book…looks like a must have!

Wally, I am very intrigued on how that S&J comes out…just sayin'


----------



## summerfi

Here is a nice preview of the new book *British Saws and Saw Makers From 1660*. And again, here is info on how to order the book. It's cheapest if you order directly from the author ($70). You can also order from Amazon ($90). In each instance shipping is free.


----------



## comboprof

Hmm, I liked to see a few more pages… could you post a picture of all 700?

LOL

I'll be ordering my copy soon.


----------



## donwilwol

Man, I like to order my books used!


----------



## summerfi

Sorry for this fuzzy picture. I had a real hard time getting a picture of the shiny brass without a lot of background reflections. Anyway, this is a short (6") brass back I'm using for my saw swap saw, with my logo laser etched on it. I thinned down the font and I think it turned out much better than the medallions did. The style is intended to be similar to the old Disston double eagle stamp. On a regular length back (12"+) I'll add the words Spring Steel and Warranted to the left and right, similar to the Disston. How do you think this looks…better than the medallions?


----------



## shampeon

That is gorgeous, Bob.


----------



## Wally331

Terrific Bob! It has really been crazy to see the progression of our small group of saw makers over the course of the last year. Heck, if you read through the first few pages of this thread its amazing how much knowledge has been gained in such a short time. We've had at least three new saw makers pop out in just about the last year alone. Just boggles my mind that only a few years ago no one was producing any quality saws at all, not to mention ones with machined split nuts, engraved medallions, etched blades, etc, and now there's tons of options to choose from when buying a new saw.

Anyways Bob, I would love to get in contact with "your guy" if he is willing to etch more medallions.


----------



## JayT

That looks sweet, Bob! I think you've found your look.


----------



## summerfi

That's great Wally. I'll PM you with some info.


----------



## DanKrager

That caught my (trained at Josten's) eye. Nice etch, much nicer than the medallions for crisp.
DanK


----------



## comboprof

Looks excellent.


----------



## Brit

Outstanding Bob. It looks fantastic. Can't wait to see the finished saws.

Wally - I couldn't agree with your last statement more. I was just thinking the same thing myself last night. The progression in this group is nothing short of amazing. Lovely to see


----------



## donwilwol

That etch is great Bob.

Well said Wally.


----------



## chrisstef

Bravo bob. It looks killer bud!


----------



## grfrazee

Wow Bob, that's pretty spectacular. Clear, crisp, and very professional-looking.


----------



## terryR

Bob, the back looks so nice, I want one!  Maybe attached to 12" of sharpened spring steel, and a tote of your choosing? Am willing to wait in line, too!


----------



## richardwootton

I know I said this over at the saw swap thread, but it's worth saying twice. That looks fantastic, especially with the polished brass. Spot on friend!


----------



## racerglen

Beauty Bob, realy like the effect, and 100 X what the guys are saying about the progression and skill level !
(now if only…time will tell in my case, but time is the issue.)


----------



## summerfi

Sometimes I see things on ebay that just make me laugh. There is a nice Disston No. 8 listed this morning. I don't know if the seller is a good saw doctor or not, but he sure has the makings of a good used car salesman, or maybe just a good BS-er. Here are excerpts from his ad.

"Tuned and supercharged 2 b the best! Max performance!...First things first, let's get it straight, this saw has been tuned, sharpened, balanced, set and polished with microscopic precision to be the best saw you have ever used!...this baby is near full factory width with the manufacturing marks (or grain) still present on the plate…doesn't just cut wood, it chisels off tiny rolls of wood with every single tooth with the least amount of effort you would imagine for a big jim dandy like this!...The factory polish is still present, this baby doubles as a mirror!...I have used my (non-patented ) R-1 aggressive rip filing pattern with this saw to make it cut like that saw you dream of when you creep to the computer late at night to find that perfect saw…This saw is better than factory new as far as the tooth line is concerned…Come to me to sale your fine antique saws or planes…I can also order you custom new or antique saws if I have access to the antique you want."

Now, would someone explain to me what it means to tune, balance, and supercharge a handsaw to microscopic precision? And OK, I admit it, I have crept to the computer late at night to look for that special saw of my dreams. It's nice to know that now I can have him order me that custom antique saw I dream about.


----------



## chrisstef

Ive read stuff from that seller myself Bob and chuckle every time I read "supercharged". Like it comes with a big bag of spinach and popeye's forearms.


----------



## terryR

wow, are superchargers street legal where you guys live?

hey, I've got a dozen where you can still see the grain of the steel…


----------



## bandit571

Sunday Garage sale finds









Stanley #70 and a Craftsman 18" backsaw. The 70 is a SW model. The backsaw will need some work on the teeth, but it does fit in the 22" Craftsman Mitrebox just fine. IF I can get it sharpened back up, I can use it for the small moldings and such, and leave the bigger 22" saw for the larger stuff.

These markings are not painted on









They are fairly deep, almost like they were incised into the wood. Both items cost a dollar bill, each.

Might just be some decent users.


----------



## summerfi

Got my book today, signed inside by the author. Pretty awesome.


----------



## GMatheson

Very nice Bob. After you get some time to read it you will be my go to expert.


----------



## bandit571

Thinking again, dangerous I know, but

On that Craftsman 18" backsaw, maybe retooth it into a rip? Then I could have a tenon style saw?

Plate is fairly straight. But them teeth are TINY! And barely there. Might drag out a larger file, and file it rip?

The Craftsman22" cuts just fine. Might leave it in the mitresaw .

Plans are for a wood screen/storm door out of pine. Wedged and pinned joints for the through tenons. Might just need a big old tenon saw…


----------



## chrisstef

I might be talking out of my rear on this one but a bigger file is just going to shift the teeth down the line causing one or two to fall off the end? I don't know that it will actually change the tooth pattern from say a 12 to a 10 but im not sure, ive never tried it. Id say go ahead and file it into a rip bandito.


----------



## ToddJB

Bob, that's a hellofah bookmark you got there.


----------



## bandit571

Teeth right now look like a hack saw's type of teeth. Maybe close to 18-20ppi? Filed rip, might loose every other one, then have to reset every other one. Got this weekend off, I can clear away a space, and try it out.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Nice Bob. Might have to put that on my Xmas list. Also, I thought this pic from my shop today would make you smile. 









Didn't even turn on the tablesaw today. I'm getting proficient with these hand jobbers.


----------



## ToddJB

> I m getting proficient with these hand jobbers.
> 
> - BigRedKnothead


I'll let that speak for itself.


----------



## summerfi

That's a nice lookin' saw you got there Red. ;-)

Todd, I say go big and sharp or go home. No whimpy bookmarks here.


----------



## JayT

> I m getting proficient with these hand jobbers.
> 
> - BigRedKnothead
> 
> I ll let that speak for itself.
> 
> - ToddJB


stef's going to be all over that one-in more ways than one.


----------



## comboprof

> I might be talking out of my rear on this one but a bigger file is just going to shift the teeth down the line causing one or two to fall off the end? I don t know that it will actually change the tooth pattern from say a 12 to a 10 but im not sure, ive never tried it. Id say go ahead and file it into a rip bandito.
> 
> - chrisstef


As I understand it, if say the saw is 16 tpi (which is what it looks like to me). Taking a file that is twice the size it should be, you ought to be able to resharpen so that every other tooth is eliminated (turned into a valley) and end up with 8 tpi. Otherwise you would have to file off all the teeth and start over, if say you want to change from 12 tpi to 10 tpi. If you just file with a bigger, but not not twice as big file to try to shift teeth down and into a different tpi, then I think your teeth will not be of uniform shape. At least in my head this is how the math will work out.


----------



## Airframer

New Tag Line.. done..


----------



## ToddJB

Haha


----------



## richardwootton

Haha! Well played Eric!


----------



## BigRedKnothead

LAWL. You ornery ba$tard Eric.

To be honest, there was a split second while building my lathe stand today when I thought, "I'll show that knucklehead Eric a power tool/plywood build." hehe….you all up in my head.

ps. the lower cabinet of my lathe stand will def have some plywood;-)

And Bob, I love that saw.


----------



## john2005

Just goes to show you can't be too careful….

Finally got some free time and got the saw till to 90%. Now it's just finish and a cleat to hang it with. All done with…eh hem…hand jobbers…I guess that's not entirely true. I did punch the screws in with the batt operated drill.


----------



## terryR

Nice book, Bob, on my B-day list…oh yeah!

John, I've tried for 10 minutes to see your saw till, but all I can stare at is your bench! Love it!

OK, I see the till now…nice! Looks like you hang your compass saw the same way I do…whatever! LOL!

Guess it's time to head to the shop and practice with hand jobbers…


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Very nice John. Diggin the joinery.

I didn't know how to cut dovetails when I made my tills. Guess I'll have to start all over;-)


----------



## john2005

Thanks boys.

Yeah Red the guide is handy, but I have a ways to go. You will notice I have not posted any close ups. Looks like a 5yr old getting teeth. Gap city. Speed was up though.


----------



## summerfi

Here are three Disston saws I just finished up. I didn't have to find these saws, they found me. Now that the word is getting around that I restore saws, people are starting to bring them to me.

First is an 1877-1888 18" No. 12 panel filed 11 ppi crosscut. The plate is pitted throughout, but the pitting isn't deep and the saw is still very serviceable. Repaired upper horn. Etch barely visible.

Second is an 1896-1917 No. 12 filed 8 ppi crosscut. The etch says it is from the early part of this period. This saw originally had a 26" plate. When I received it, the plate had been shortened to 25 1/4". Due to the many sharpenings it's had, I shortened it further to 22". Repaired lower horn. Very clear etch.

Third is a c1940's D-12 filed 7 ppi rip. Nice wide 26" plate with clear etch. Repaired upper horn.

These will all go on ebay at some point.


----------



## Tugboater78

My neighbor brought this over to me today while I was working around the shop. His father passed about 3 months ago and he was sorting through stuff and found it. He thought I could make some use of it. Sorry for not so great pic, but I didn't get much chance to take better ones.

How can I best tell if it is rip or xcut? I am hoping this is rip cause I could use one. It seems like it is rip but saws are something I havent delved into much. Going to try to clean it up some. How can I get the stains off without ruining the etch?


----------



## summerfi

Justin, as this illustration shows, rip saws are filed straight across (like a chisel) and crosscut are filed at an alternating angle (like a knife). You should be able to tell by looking closely at the teeth.










Sand the plate with about a 320 grit paper. In the area of the etch, wrap the paper around a small block of wood to keep it flat. Sand lightly and watch closely. Stop sanding before the etch begins to fade away.


----------



## Tugboater78

Thanks, ill get a better look tomorrow, was to busy today to really look closely.


----------



## Bugnurd

Any ideas on the maker and/or vintage of this 14" back saw? Picked up at a barn sale near Worcester, MA. No markings that I can tell, except the initials G.P. stamped in the handle (I assume that was the owner).
Thanks!


----------



## theoldfart

Split nuts so 1880 or so or earlier. Good lines on the tote, nice lambs tongue.


----------



## Bugnurd

I'm seeing Henshaw & Co. was a Boston sawmaker. Not many pics to be found, but one on backsaw.net looks like a similar handle.


----------



## planepassion

The handle appears to have a traditional English shape to it; specifically the bottom of the rear tote has a tell-tale flat. I suspect that your cleaning it up will reveal some markings.


----------



## summerfi

+1 for the English handle style. The Brits used split nuts into the early 20th century. It looks to me like a second line British saw of late 19th or early 20th century. If there are truly no marking on it, that would be another indication of a second line saw. Post it on backsaw.net and the British saw experts there will give an opinion.


----------



## jmartel

> I m getting proficient with these hand jobbers.
> 
> - BigRedKnothead


What about a Z-job?


----------



## Tugboater78

Looks like the D-8 is an x-cut, oh well needed a good one of those too. Needs a sharpening, but I'm not ready for that yet.


----------



## theoldfart

Brad/Bob, I have two antique English tenon saws, a Biggins and a Groves, and neither has that flat bottom. Is that a later characteristic?


----------



## summerfi

Kevin, nearly all early British saws had the flat bottom handle (i.e. late 18th and early 19th century). But even after the fishtail style handle evolved, the flat handle continued to be used, especially on second quality saws, until the early 20th century. There is a chart on backsaw.net that shows when various saw characteristics were in use. The site seems to be down at the moment, so I can't provide a link.


----------



## Bugnurd

Okay, I took another look and revealed a name. Looks like "Turner Davies & Co. GERMANY". Do you think this would be a German saw, or an English saw with German steel?


----------



## summerfi

Turner Davies & Co operated from 1837 - 1846 at 27 Norfolk Lane, Sheffield, UK. There is not much additional information on them. So your saw is indeed a fairly old one, with a handle that is in very good condition for a saw that old. The mark is most likely German Steel, which was common for British saws of that period. It seems counter-intuitive, but German Steel was a second quality steel and did not necessarily come from Germany. It was manufactured in England, and the German refers more to the process used to make it than to the place of origin. The saw is a nice find. Please post pictures again after it is cleaned up.

Here is the link to that chart I referred to above. http://www.backsaw.net/timeline/


----------



## theoldfart

Bob, beating a dead horse here! My two English totes:
Groves








Biggins









I'm pretty sure the Biggins dates to about 1852, not sure about the Groves. Are these what you mean by fishtail?


----------



## summerfi

Yes, Kevin, exactly. The bottom of the tote resembles a fish or dolphin tail, both terms being commonly used to describe it.

Groves was one of the larger British saw companies and had a very long history. They began possibly as early as 1770 and continued until 1924, obviously passing through a succession of owners. There were multiple Biggins, father, sons, and unrelated. They made saws roughly from 1845 to 1860. The front of your Biggin saw handle has an unusual shape. Has it been modified, or do you think it is original?


----------



## theoldfart

Bob, i don't see any evidence of reworking the tote and both sides are symmetrical


















Could very well be that maybe sometime in the past someone could have reworked it with the plate off, I just can't tell.


----------



## summerfi

Thanks Kevin. These old saws always have something new to keep it interesting.


----------



## bandit571

Saw works today. Have a second one in the "saw vise" already jointed and awaiting the file for the teeth









Found a use for an old plane handle that didn't work out. Drill a small hole, and insert a file. Leg vise now has a strip of leather. Old leather nail bag gave up a pouch.

First saw is already done, filed rip. Gave it a test drive









Not too bad. kind of rough to start the cut.

Have two others that won't need any work









At least for now. Shorter one is a rosewood handled Crown 8", the other is a 10" whatever. Also have a hacksaw with that very same handle, too.

Will try to get that 18" saw sharpened back up. For now, I'll just match the tooth count.


----------



## chrisstef

"You look so lost and neglected sitting there in the bottom of that toolbox. Why don't you just come home with me? Yes? Ok. Lets go."


----------



## richardwootton

Stef, were you talking to an orphan when you said that?


----------



## handsawgeek

Hi, All,
I've just discovered this amazing thread !! What a nice bunch of pictures, and a great wealth of saw-lore here!
Here is a pic of some saws I picked up last year at a yard sale. Can any of you identifiy the one on the bottom of the pic. I'm thinking some sort of pruning saw. There are no manufacturers marks on it anywhere. It's definitely not anything vintage, but it is an interesting addition to the collection.


----------



## AnthonyReed

Nice grab congrats. I'm looking forward to the rehab.


----------



## chrisstef

RW - lol, yes, and shes no longer an orphan. Ive got a warm cozy home where shell be well taken care of and rehabilitated.


----------



## summerfi

Welcome to the thread, Ed. The saw in question is a double edged pruning saw, sometimes called a lightning saw.


----------



## richardwootton

Stef, please tell me you're calling her Annie and have renamed yourself Daddy Warbucks.


----------



## chrisstef

If you sing the song I will come to wherever you reside and throat punch you, you show tunes loving hippy lol.

She hasn't gotten a name yet. Dirty girls don't get named. I like papa stef and until she earns her stripes, its lil miss diss(ton).


----------



## richardwootton

I literally just laughed out loud, while at work, and my Hispanic coworker looked over at me and I knew he was thinking "white people are crazy!"


----------



## handsawgeek

Thankee, Bob
This saw now has its very own special nail hanger in the garage amongst the gardening tools!


----------



## terryR

Stef, that's a cute lil saw…did someone chop it? Just looks like not enough plate to justify that closed tote…

...bet it looks better in a week, though! 

I've been using the heck out of that No.7 you last sharpened…awesome worker! The thin plate and sharp as hell teeth have made that guy a go-to saw. I even use it for parting stuff off the lathe! LOL.

Ed, I have a pruning saw exactly like the one you posted…excellent for removing plastic handles from cheap tools, so you can replace with wood. Seriously.


----------



## chrisstef

Terry - No choppage on that one. I was the smallest Disston backsaw they made at only 8". Im stoked to hear that the 7 is become a user in your shop! Nothin better to hear than that.

Someone jammed a larger saw nut in the hole and im having a heck of a time removing it. If I can get it to budge just a little bit I might be able to sneak a hacksaw blade behind it and cut it off. Gonna need to scour the bay for a correct diameter nut.


----------



## Tugboater78

Found this at a yard sale for a dollar.. handle has a crack and plate is straight and sharp ( needs a once over sharpening but yeah) , no pitting. Maybe I can make some use of it.

Haven't seen a handle like this. It is a Dustin, sorry for poor pictures.


----------



## ToddJB

Looks like the top horn was busted off and they reshaped it.


----------



## richardwootton

+1 to what Todd said


----------



## planepassion

Tug, you can't beat a buck…the brass alone is worth much more than that. So you can either use this one for parts (brass, medallion, sawplate for scraper blades, handle for repairs on other handles) or fix it up and put er to use. I have one similar to it, but the very narrow toe-plate doesn't seem sturdy enough in my shop. So it sits upon a peg in its barn-fresh state. I think this is a shipyard model if memory serves.

My question is, what would a narrow-toe sawplate allow you to do that you can't do with panel and handsaws?


----------



## bandit571

Turn corners. Ships of wood had a lots of curvy things to saw. Think of the "Ship's Saw " as a hand-powered sabresaw.

Happen to have an Atkins made one, in the Tool Chest #2. Medallion says "Pheonix Warranted"









It is the one at the top. you might even know the other saw as well


----------



## planepassion

Bandit, now that would be a useful feature. Would the ship's saw be as good as say a bowsaw for cutting curves?


----------



## DanKrager

This may not be a complete answer to your question, Brad, but I've tried to use a bow saw for cutting curves and found the bow to be cumbersome and often in the way, limiting the curve and locations it can be used. The freedom of a key hole saw, saber saw, sawsall is found in the skinny tip of the ship's carpenter saw. Just my observation.
DanK


----------



## planepassion

Interesting Dan. I'm going to pull out my ship saw and play around with it.


----------



## comboprof

With the bow saw I have, I can turn the blade to that it is at an angle (say 90 degrees) to the frame. Then the bow does not get in the way when cutting exterior curves. For interior curves/holes you do need something like a key hole saw.


----------



## 69BBNova

Hey guys…

I have a question about who is the maker of this saw…

The pics are the best I can do at the moment and I'm unable to get the little bit of etch to show up better just yet…

-Its 25" long but I'm fairly sure it was cut down an inch
-Warranted Superior
-Eagle holding 3 arrows left foot, branch with leaves right
-Shield on chest
-Below Warranted it has…pat Dec 27 1887
-There are a few letters visible on a lower scroll, I'm guessing Roman Numerals

Anyhow hope someone has an idea…
Hope everyone is doing well

Thanks


----------



## summerfi

Hi Nova. It's hard to tell who made the saw. It could be Disston or any one of a few other makers. The shape does resemble a D-8 somewhat. One thing to be aware of is that the patent date refers to the patent of the screw design and not to the patent of the saw.


----------



## chrisstef

My first hunch was an OVB saw nova but i dunno its really hard to say.


----------



## 69BBNova

Thanks guys…

First question…lol…OVB, is that like OBGYN…lol…because I have no idea what you mean…lol

Thanks for the information summerfi…
I did know about the patent with not being the saw, but I want to thank you for what it does mean.

You are the two guys I wanted to talk to actually…

If I remember correctly summerfi somewhere I read you have a liking for Spears and Jackson saws…
And chrisstef I seem to remember you asking about the saw I have with the NEW LONDON CONN. etch…

I you two are interested I'll send them your way on my dime, before I turn them into a homebuilt KIA.

Just let me know…I'll just need time to save a little…

Consider them early/late Bday gifts,
Bill


----------



## theoldfart

A most generous man, Stef and Bob are being rewarded for a lot of knowledgeable advice and support. Well done Bill.


----------



## chrisstef

Lol OVB was "our very best" handsaw. I dont really know much more about them unfortunately but the etch seemed to jar something loose in my noggin and spit it out. Im typically way off base when i do so but hey, its the internet, why not lol.


----------



## 69BBNova

Thanks chrisstef…it was the first think that popped into my head…lol

I started calling it "Online Psychosis" 10 or so years ago.

By the way I'm not joking if you guys want the says just say it…

They've been sitting here for months for you two until I found out after I asked.


----------



## summerfi

Nova/Bill - That is an extremely generous offer. There's no way I could turn that down. I'll PM you my address, and I'll gladly send you the shipping cost via paypal. I'll need to do that tonight, though, since I'm leaving early in the morning for more fire duty in California.

I'll add a little more to the OVB discussion. Our Very Best was the trade name used by the Hibbard, Spencer, and Bartlett hardware company of Chicago. They didn't make tools, they just sold tools made by other companies branded with the OVB mark. HSB/OVB saws carried their own style medallion, pictured below. Thus it is unlikely, based on the Warranted Superior medallion on your saw, that it is a OVB.


----------



## 69BBNova

Your welcome, I've already replied to your PM…

It needs plenty of work…

I didn't mention that I believe the steel should clean up fairly nice…

I should say I hope you like retoothing…lol…sorry…

Its not wiped out but all it ever takes is one.

Be Careful out there.
Bill


----------



## byerbyer

Could you folks help me out on a Disston I picked up at flea market a couple months back. I believe it's a 8 tpi D-27 (or something similar), which a little internet research tells me is a pruning saw. I bought it because it has an etching (under all the grime) of a Kansas hardware store. I knew something was amiss by the shape of the handle, but for a couple dollars I figured it was worth it. Any reason it wouldn't work as cross-cut saw? Would it be sacrilegious to put a "nicer" handle on it? I'm new to the world of hand saws so I'm crawling before I walk… Thanks in advance.


----------



## chrisstef

I managed to wrestle out that oversized saw nut from the little 8" disston backsaw last night and found that the hole had been enlarged and in doing so the plate was kind of damaged. There's a nasty, sharp piece sticking out. Weakness. Im tempted to replace the plate with a new one and use a newly manufactured split nut in place of the oversized one that was there. Whats the gang say?

Byer - im not sure how it would crosscut, it would depend on how the teeth were configured. They look small enough to work as a xcut saw but its all about the geometry of them. I say go ahead and replace the handle if youd like, no sacrilege in my book, but id want to make sure it would cut like I wanted before putting time into a new handle.


----------



## summerfi

Byer - The plate on your saw looks like the standard D-8 plate or something similar. It doesn't look like a pruning saw plate. So I think someone has already replaced the handle with a pruning saw handle, and even put the screws in from the wrong side. Go ahead and put a new handle on, clean and sharpen up the plate, and it should work just fine.


----------



## chrisstef

Im going to start commenting AFTER Bob comments. How the hell did I miss that lol.


----------



## bandit571

Small pruning saw









On another note. I have been busy with a file









Had to make a handle to hold the small files, first. Victim in the clamps is an 18" long back saw. Already done is a small backsaw









Filed as a rip. That is a 2×4 scrap it is sitting in. Rips nice and straight. Maybe use this as a tenon saw?


----------



## byerbyer

Bob, Smitty- Thanks for the knowledge! I'll add a new handle and some restore work to my ever growing list of shop projects.


----------



## terryR

Thanks for history on OVB, Bob. I've also seen that label, and wasn't sure what it meant. Sorta like Sargent's VBM…

But, seriously, you guys keep mentioning LOL (little old ladies) in your posts…whatzup with that?


----------



## 69BBNova

terryR…I'm still laughing about the little old ladies…

I think that's a really good one…

Thanks


----------



## Brit

Terry - Before I joined LJs, I used to just hang out and read anonimously and at first I thought people were a bit too friendly for my liking saying *L*ots *O*f *L*ove to each other all the time.


----------



## ToddJB

Wait, it doesn't stand for lusting over ladders?


----------



## TobyC

I thought I was on the wrong kind of forum. (Lots of Licking)


----------



## TobyC

Then I found out that it was "Lunatics on Line" and I felt right at home.


----------



## bandit571

Well, so far, I have spent $5 on these three saws









The Sears one is an 8ppi and sharp and straight. Those other two?









One has been sharpened enough, the teeth are about into the "8" stamped in the plate. The other is basically the same saw, just hasn't been to the sharpening service….yet. "Disston" USA on the medallions. Bolts are brass.

Slim pickings today….


----------



## bandit571

Is it "Lewy Or Lou-eye?"

Me gotta go….


----------



## john2005

Found this this morning at an antique store. She kicked it back to 4 bucks cause its missing a nut. They tried to cover it with they sticker but I was way to smart for them… 5 PPI Diston, I am assuming a D-8 as it looks the same as the D-8 I have but with less teeth. Haven't looked for an etch yet. Pretty pitted.










And yes I know it's upside-down. Now


----------



## richardwootton

That's a good looking handsaw you have there John. It looks like the handle is in good shape.


----------



## DonBroussard

I went rustiquing this afternoon and picked up a bunch of saw files. I dug out a total of 73 triangular files of various sizes out of a box of rusty objects. I need to clean 'em up to see what I have. I think I've read on here that diluted vinegar is one method for cleaning, followed by physical cleaning with a brass wire brush? Does that cleaning regimen sound about right?

Thanks in advance for your comments.


----------



## TobyC

> I went rustiquing this afternoon and picked up a bunch of saw files. I dug out a total of 73 triangular files of various sizes out of a box of rusty objects. I need to clean em up to see what I have. I think I ve read on here that diluted vinegar is one method for cleaning, followed by physical cleaning with a brass wire brush? Does that cleaning regimen sound about right?
> 
> Thanks in advance for your comments.
> 
> - Don Broussard


That works, you can also use lemon juice concentrate in place of the vinegar.


----------



## upchuck

Don Broussard-
I don't know why you would want to dilute the vinegar. It's my understanding that vinegar is a mild acid. I use it to remove rust on most of the tools I buy. I follow the soaking with a brass wire brush to clean the black funk off and remove whatever was loosen by the soak from the teeth. It's a messy method and I dry the tools completely, usually I put them in the oven at 200 degrees for an hour or so.


----------



## DonBroussard

upchuck-I wasn't sure about the dilution part. I'll go full-strength. Also, the timing is good for using the oven to dry the files, since my wife is out of town!


----------



## upchuck

Don B-

I buy my vinegar at the grocery store. I've only used white vinegar but I don't see why other flavors wouldn't work. If the price is right I buy used files and the totally worn out ones I set aside for the tool steel in them. Some people use serious acid to "sharpen" the teeth of worn files. But I haven't done it and have no advise to offer other than become informed about the safety issues. Vinegar is user friendly.

Good luck.

chuck


----------



## ToddJB

I've put trashed files in The Works toilet bowl cleaner. Leave them over night. It makes them usable again.


----------



## Wally331

Been doing some work on a few saws lately. First is a nice disston 16 with sunken medallion. Not a common saw but not rare either. Cuts like a champ. I love the steel from this era.


















Next is a disston d-8. Good looking saw. Still need to sharpen it though.








Also finished up two of dons backsaws but no pics yet .

Got about 20 or so more to restore!


----------



## richardwootton

How do you have that 16 sharpened Wally? You could pay your way through college just restoring hand saws!


----------



## DonBroussard

Wally-You just continue to impress and amaze me with the quality of your work! Beautiful!

I soaked the saw files in full-strength vinegar and did a baking soda rinse over the weekend and started brushing them clean. I haven't finished cleaning them all yet, but there were a bunch of Black Diamond, Nicholson and Bluegrass branded files in the bunch. Lots of extra slim and a few double extra slim along with a few broken ones. There is one triangular file that's has wider edges (about ½") than others. It's the file on the top of these three, with a 9" file in the middle and a 6" on the bottom just for scale. The large file is marked "K&F" on all three faces. It cleaned up pretty well. My first impression is that there are a lot of files with life left in them.


----------



## KelvinGrove

Thoughts anyone???

http://chattanooga.craigslist.org/tls/4667029988.html


----------



## theoldfart

meh, wait for something better and bigger. Maybe a 74. The bigger ones have better saw guides.


----------



## Wally331

Richard it is an 8? PPI I believe with 20° fleam and 15° rake. Its for sale if your interested


----------



## ErikF

Well, the craigslist scouring paid off. I've been keeping an eye out for a Foley retoother and was lucky to find a week old ad with both the retoother and filer, best part is that there were ratchet bars and carriers included in the sale. The catch here is that I found them on an ad posted near my parents house which is 2000 miles away…at least until the end of the year when I move my family back to Michigan. This will be a test of my patience because I'm very interested to learning the two machines. Also, you may notice the base of a knee mill and lathe in the background…can't wait to make more tools. I took a little break from the saws to ad another tool to my line up, it's a micro adjust marking gauge that I finished up yesterday. It's took a few different designs but this one is the winner!


----------



## terryR

Excellent find on the Foley, Erik! I can promise to help with funding! LOL!

And that micro-adjustable marking gauge is over the top! I kinda like the one with wooden handle better…


----------



## Mosquito

sweet score Erik. I also like the micro adjust marking gauge too. I've been wanting to get a better wheel marking gauge for a while…


----------



## ToddJB

Erik, that marking gauge is awesome. I really like the one with wood handle in the background, as well.


----------



## ErikF

Haha…the one with the wood handle is the Woodriver gauge. A very nice tool. I'm planning to build a few of the gauges over the next couple weeks to send out as testers and would like if a couple of you LJ's put them to use. I am a little bias toward them and need some honest feedback.


----------



## ToddJB

If you're looking for volunteers, I guess I could find some time to help you out


----------



## richardwootton

Lol Todd you beat me to the punch on that one!


----------



## ToddJB

My sacrificial nature has found no boundaries, Richard.


----------



## lateralus819

Id be willing to test one out. Heck I'd pay for it. I have a cheap shop fox that just plain doesnt work. It crushes the wood as opposed to slicing Lol.


----------



## Mosquito

I'm rockin' one of these









Which is why I seem to use the single pin side of my Stanley #77 mortise gauge a lot instead…


----------



## richardwootton

Todd, you are a true martyr my friend.

I'd be happy to pay for it also, Erik.


----------



## ToddJB

Erik, so the bottom thumb screw slides it up and down, and the head of it screws for the micro adjustment, then locks down with the upper thumb screw?


----------



## ErikF

Glad there are to many people willing to help out!

Todd- the bottom thumb screw locks the lower section in place. The knurled portion spins freely to adjust the fence (head). The rod has a 1/8" slot that prevents the head from spinning when the adjuster is spun using a turned down brass thumb screw. I might be able to show it working better with a YouTube video or some disassembled pictures.

Mos- I had one of those gauges…I have it away when I sold a few tools on craigslist. It would have been fine if the cutter would have stayed tight and sharp.


----------



## ToddJB

I think I've got my head around it. Sounds sweet.


----------



## comboprof

Also, let me know when they are for sale.


----------



## john2005

You may need to send a couple up to Montana (speaking on Bobs behalf for a second) so that we can test them against the harsh climate. Supposed to be a bad winter so we can really test em….just sayin….


----------



## bandit571

Before the clean up









and after a bit of cleaning up









These two came from a pile of saws at a garage sale..$2 each. One just happened to have been sharpened a few times more









Otherwise, they were a matching pair of D-8s, 8ppi Disston USA crosscut saws. The wider one does have an etch, that I will try to bring back. Doubt if the skinny one has any left, teeth are into the "8" stamp.

Might have been worth the $4?


----------



## chrisstef

Solid $4 investment bandito.


----------



## bandit571

Now have a small tenon saw that will RIP!









I think this is a 12" backsaw from West Germany. I also tried it out along an edge









That thin strip USED to be a part of the wider pine board, Saw does cut straight, and very FAST.

The other saw in the sharpening program is also done as a rip, it is more for the miter box though as it is 18" long. Took a while to file all of them teeth, too.









Trying to hide back there behind some old planes…


----------



## Brit

Nice job Bandit. Keep 'em comin'.


----------



## byerbyer

I''m gearing up to do my first saw restore and I've been researching methods of cleaning the plate. What are your thoughts on using Evapo-Rust on saw plates, does it have any ill effects on the etch?


----------



## ToddJB

Byer, Bob uses it on his saws and reports no illl effect. I cannot say I've tried.


----------



## chrisstef

None that ive noticed byer. Ive also used CLR without any harm to the etch.


----------



## grfrazee

A few days ago Paul Sellers posted a video on retoothing saw plates that presents a different approach than I've seen before. It seems like it should help conserve those expensive saw files for those of you who do that.

I'll definitely be trying this in the future.


----------



## bandit571

Currently have one of the Twin D-8 clamped up in a "saw vise". Teeth were in need of a refreshing….BADLY

Getting a couple other saws ready for FeeBay. Not sure WHAT to call them. One has a small tote, bit fancy









Plate has a straight back. 8ppi, filed crosscut. Medallion simply says Warranted Superior. Brass hardware. 26" long

The second of the two is a skew back. Warranted Superior 8ppi. Strange tote, though









Haven't found any signs of an etch, on either of them. Either look like some saws others have?

BTW: Just HOW many 8ppi saws is too many in a shop? ( says the guy with THREE D-8s ….)


----------



## Mosquito

*grfrazee* I saw that method that Paul Sellers posted, and I want to try it out… getting the teeth evenly spaced was the hardest part (and by far what I did the worst on) while retoothing one of my saws.


----------



## chrisstef

Mos - did you use any sort of spacing template when filing in new teeth?

Greg - I took a quick peek at the Sellers video and it seems pretty interesting. Looks like youd save a good 1/2 a file and some time in getting things started in retoothing.

Ive got a Harvey Peace that's begging to be retoothed but haven't gotten the guts to do it yet.


----------



## Mosquito

I did, I used a printed one. Issue I was having was not being able to keep the file on the right path where I wanted it to


----------



## chrisstef

That's what I envisioned as the problem. Did the file wanna hop on ya or was it just a matter of trying to keep it straight?


----------



## Mosquito

mostly the hop. I could keep the file straight enough, it was the issue of getting it to stay on the line (I printed out lines and glued it to the plate for spacing guide). I'm sure it's more me than anything, but the Paul Sellers way seems like it'd be a little easier for me


----------



## chrisstef

Im with ya. I caught the file hops on a saw I just finished up for Red and it was super annoying. I ended up having to pint the tip of the file slightly downward to avoid the hops. Of course this made the second stroke of the file screech like a banshee which was doubly annoying. I think the PS method would be pretty darn handy, I might just give it a go when the time comes.


----------



## bandit571

Could make a file holder to help









Just a tote-like block of wood, with a small hole for the file to fit into. I MIGHT make a small kanoobie for the other end, something for the other hand to hang onto….









Test drive of the 12" rip/tenon saw, after a trip through the saw sharpener. Had enough stock, I could have an 18" clamped up at the same time









!8" backsaw is now done. Have a D-8 clamped up now. First 3" are filed, LONG way to the other end, though…..


----------



## Wally331

I've had trouble with my hacksaws wanting to really bite into the steel, or dulling very quickly with that method, though I havent tried grinding the slight ramp into the teeth. But I know when the corners at the top of my taper files break off, I grind a ramp into the good teeth. It really works great and saves you the frustration of pushing broken teeth through a plate, and breaking more off in the process.

I haven't had much time lately as always. Last homecoming dance for me was on Saturday, and of course I played in the game on Friday. Practice on Sunday again and homework to follow up took most of my time. Anyways, I finished up a diaston d-8 panel saw. Joint effort of ljs, plate from Don, screws from Erik, and handle by me. The plate cleaned up amazingly. Needs a sharpening but she looks pretty good if you ask me.


----------



## planepassion

What a lovely collaboration. The screws from Eric look great on the mahogany handle you made. And they both set off the vintage plate from Don nicely.


----------



## terryR

Another great-looking saw, Wally!

Thanks for sharing that Sellers' video, Greg. Love watching him work…meticulous and slow. That method sure looks time-consuming, but correct for even spacing of fresh teeth. Looks like He and Bandit are using the same saw vise. No more excuses for me! 

Time to order a few Starrett hacksaw blades anyways…and put a file to some WS steel!!!!!!!


----------



## Brit

Go Terry!!!

Nice saw Wally. Good for another many more years now.


----------



## donwilwol

way to go Wally.


----------



## summerfi

Wally, the D-8 looks great. How did you make the slot in the handle for the rounded heel on the saw plate?


----------



## SamuelP

Wally_ Every time I see your work I regret all the time I wasted when I was your age. If only I knew I would like wood working this much back then.. I cannot wait to see what you will be doing in 5 years. Great job.


----------



## terryR

Thanks for the encouragement, Andy! Yesterday, I watched parts of your video again, got out my lighted working lens, placed my WS plate on the bench for a good assessment of the existing teeth…forgot they are filed cross-doh! Not really what I need for a first try!

Looks like in my beginner's haste to acquire rusty saws, I paid more attention to the Medallions than the teeth geometry. bollocks. Now, I need a worthless rip saw to play with…but have only a dozen rusty cross cutters. 

Oh wait…I also have that LN panel saw that I hate…can I file her teeth off and practice on an heirloom quality tool?

Yes, Wally, PLEASE share how you fit that tote to the D8! I HAVE to know.


----------



## richardwootton

Terry, I bet I've got an old rip saw I could trade you for that LN!


----------



## chrisstef

You can file an old cross cutter into a rip Terry. Find one with a rather wavy toothline and by the time you are making sharp points youll have most, if not all, of the fleam filed out of the teeth. Youll find the first stroke bit grabby or jumpy all though.


----------



## Mosquito

Terry, just buy a piece of spring steel stock lol

I might give the method Paul Sellers showed a try one of the scraps from when I made my panel saw… if it works, I might buy spring steel stock and make myself a crosscut saw to go with my small rip panel saw


----------



## terryR

Richard, Honestly, I would consider your trade…

But I received that LN panel saw as an Anniversary gift from the wife. Can't dispose of it!

LOL.


----------



## chrisstef

.


----------



## terryR

Thanks, Stef. That's my plan. Got an 8ppi cross that will become rip, I hope.

Do I need to file the existing teeth down a bit? They are in good shape! Sort of a shame to ruin this old x-cut, but it was rusting away before I paid $5 for it! Maybe I can get photos later?

Edit…MOS, where are you getting spring steel?


----------



## Mosquito

> Richard, Honestly, I would consider your trade…
> 
> But I received that LN panel saw as an Anniversary gift from the wife. Can t dispose of it!
> 
> LOL.
> 
> - terryR


Yeah that might not be good lol


----------



## chrisstef

Its going to need to be jointed a little bit at least. Run a 10" mill file flat over the tops of the teeth length wise until all the teeth have little flats/shiners on them. A couple teeth without flats wont kills ya but I shoot for every tooth with a flat. Stop once you've got them all like that, there's no need to take extra steel off and make more work for yourself.


----------



## summerfi

Terry, you can do this, bud. I've seen your work; you're more than capable. Follow Andy's video and it's a piece o' cake. Show pictures of your progress and ask questions here. We'll help. Now get to filing! The more you practice, the better it gets, I promise.


----------



## chrisstef

+1 to Bob.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Nice work on the sharpening job Stephanie. Me likey. 









I had planned to flip this saw….now I'm a little torn.


----------



## richardwootton

Yeah Terry I think you'd be up S creek without a paddle in that situation.


----------



## Wally331

Go for it Terry, changing a crosscut to rip is a lot easier then rip to crosscut! Joint it a bit and just file straight across at whatever rake you feel comfortable with.

Thanks everyone as always for the comments on the D-8. For fitting the blade into the handle, traced the semicircular pattern onto the handle, then sawed out as much as I could. It's not exactly still a full cover top( it has about an inch and a half kerf at the top). Then I simple used the first tooth on the corner of a saw plate to basically scrape out the semi-circle. With about 10 or so minutes of scraping, and checking the fit, and so on I had approximated the radius on the back of the blade. There may not be quite as much bearing surface as on a real D-8, but it is plenty sturdy. Well fitting screws help out too. I may try to either find or machine a slitting saw with the same radius as the blade and try to work out some sort of jig to cut it with. I'm gonna have my school's plasma cutter cut out some d-8 plates from TGIAG steel.


----------



## chrisstef

Glad ya dig it Red and happy it made it back to you in one piece. Well, 2 pieces, considering I had to take it apart to get it in the box.


----------



## bandit571

Here is a "novel" saw for you all. Normal 8ppi/26" length, straight back saw, 
But
There is a "special"etch to this one

Near as I can read it:
NATIONAL HARDWARE SPECIAL

DISSTON ( In BIG block letters)

1840 Philadelphia USA (looks like 1940??) inside a double line. Part of the Disston etch has the keystone sitting behind the letters.









Kind of a funny shaped handle.. Medallion says Warranted Superior, with a keystone. 
Came with this bucket of stuff, for $10









That brace says Germany on it. Back saw is another WS. There was also a large screwdriver…about 36" long. Two-handed grip, too.

National Hardware Special?


> Ring a bell


----------



## BigRedKnothead

> Wally_ Every time I see your work I regret all the time I wasted when I was your age. If only I knew I would like wood working this much back then.. I cannot wait to see what you will be doing in 5 years. Great job.
> 
> - SamuelP


I thought I'd take a moment to show Wally (and all) the awesome stuff I was making in high school. This is a custom console/ cd case for an 89 dodge shadow. It is joined by some poorly located biscuits (shown on lid cut) and one hack job of a hinge installation. I'm certain my shop teacher helped with the stopped router groove. 
I keep it in my shop, and it brings smiles.


----------



## richardwootton

Red the only thing I made at that age was trouble!


----------



## summerfi

LOL Red, when you were in high school you were making CD cases. When I was in high school 8-tracks hadn't been invented yet.


----------



## donwilwol

take a look,

A Zoological Look At Handsaw Medallions by Bob Summerfield

http://www.timetestedtools.com/a-zoological-look-at-handsaw-medallions.html


----------



## terryR

Nice article, Bob. 
Thanks, Don.

Looks like I'm in search of a Flying Greyhound saw next!

FWIW, I graduated high school in 1983, still using cassette tapes…


----------



## theoldfart

^ reel to reel tapes


----------



## upchuck

summerfi-

Thanks for that different perspective on handsaw medallions. It never occurred to me to think of saws in those terms. Eagles, elephants, and lambs oh my (in my till).

chuck


----------



## bandit571

Had a few Bishop Greyhounds for a while.
Have a STEIGO but it is Chinese made. The tote I kept, blade was very bad, added a Disston saw plate. Now it is a Hybrid saw. Disston-STEIGO

Have a couple Pheonix Warranted saws….LOVE the totes, most comfy ones I ever have used.

The ships saw in the lid of my Tool Chest #2 is a Pheonix Warranted.


----------



## LucasWoods

I am new to woodworking and would like to focus on hand tools for completing my projects. Anyhow please can anyone give me some guidance on if these lot of saws would be worth the purchase and refurbishment?

hand saws 30.00 $30
http://norfolk.craigslist.org/tls/4685961050.html


----------



## summerfi

Hi Spazy. Welcome to the saw thread, and congrats on starting a great hobby. To be honest with you, I see 3 saws in the bunch that I would consider restoring. The rest are pretty much junk. There appear to be a couple Disston D-8's or something similar, and another decent looking handsaw. That would come to $10 apiece for the 3 saws, and you can probably find a better deal if you keep looking. There's a lot of good information on this thread and elsewhere on the internet to guide you on what to look for in a handsaw. Yard sales, auctions, and ebay are good places to look. You can always ask questions here too. Good luck on your quest.


----------



## donwilwol

I don't know Bob. its a thumbhole in the upper right.


----------



## summerfi

I missed the hole Don. Still, at $30 I would pass. On the other hand, 30 bucks isn't worth losing sleep over if you need a good saw.


----------



## donwilwol

I agree, they can be found cheaper. I've paid $2 and $3 for a few. But I put in a lot of time looking. Offer $20 and walk away happy.


----------



## Wally331

Haha thanks for posting Red, you've certainly come a long way and I hope to make furniture as nice as yours someday. I still occasionally use cassettes in my 94' camry. Almost 250,000 miles on it now!


----------



## Tugboater78

So an xcut can be turned into a rip? That's a q I've had bouncing in my head for a while.. this opens some screen doors..


----------



## summerfi

Yep, Justin, an xcut can be turned into a rip, and a rip can be turned into a xcut. They're just steel teeth, so you can file them any way you want.


----------



## Tugboater78

Well I have a bunch of xcut saws but no rips, if and when I try sharpening I'd like to put some to use.. none are too special.. one even has a plywood tote…


----------



## terryR

So, I finally have overcome my fear of placing a file near a saw plate! Yesterday, I jointed the tips of the cross cut teeth off my practice saw. Only about a third. They have an enormous set to them…still not sure how to measure that? Is set calculated? Or just dialed into the tool? I assume set is close to Total width of set teeth minus plate thickness divided by 2?

Anyhow, looks like the damn cats have made off with Andy's video which I copied to an extremely small USB drive…gotta be here by the PC somewhere! But, without it, I'm lost! LOL.

Should I file off some of that set? Keep jointing the teeth to about 1/2 their height?

Damn, this is more fun than I thought! Maybe just because I'm learning?


----------



## summerfi

If the saw has too much set, you can try placing it over an anvil, block of steel, etc. and tapping lightly with a hammer. However, it's easier to add more set than to take out too much. I don't measure set, but rather just eyeball it based on experience and feel. If you have a caliper, you can measure it, and about .005" on each side is probably a good place to start. For jointing, only file off enough so that every tooth has a small flat on top. That ensures that all the teeth are the same height. No need to file more than that. Make yourself a rake gauge out of a block of wood before you start shaping the teeth. Congrats on conquering your fileophobia. You're on your way!


----------



## terryR

Thanks for any tips, Bob!

Already have a sweet jointer like Andy's, and a Veritas filing jig, assorted files…

Just need to sit my butt down and learn!


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Learning to sharpen saws feels like a retirement thing;-)


----------



## chrisstef

As long as all the teeth have shiners (flats) on the tops youve probably taken enough off and can stop jointing Terry. Whats the ppi of the saw bud?

You can lightly run a fine diamond stone down the sides of the teeth to even out the set but aside from that id stick with what Bob's got to say.

Here's your process:

Joint the tooth line (until every tooth has a shiner)
Shape the teeth (to your new rake angle, evening out the gullets)
Set the teeth (you can skip this)
Joint (Looking for shiners that all look the same)
Sharpen (removing all the shiners but not filing any more aftter that shiner is removed)


----------



## terryR

Thanks, Stef! My donor saw is 8ppi cross, hoping to end up with 8ppi rip. Easy, huh?  And, thanks for reminding me of the 5 steps. Think I have that part memorized…but HOW to perform each step…LOL!

I already filed a small amount of set off this morning…just a few passes with the file. But, I'll leave that alone for now, and shoot for even gullets.

Hey, how do you guys mark straight lines on the steel? Tape? Sharpie with knife line? Just want a nice line for my gullets, and don't want to mess with paper templates due to multiple computer issues and printer that is always out of ink.

Red, it's a cost vs. worth thing for me…already spent too much sending my saws out to the pros, USPS gets most of the money. Plus, it's a MAN thing…I mean, you sharpen your pocket knife yourself don't ya? LOL! After SHTF, I wanna be the guy who has all the sharp hand tools and knowledge to use them…"Yes, ma'am, I can fix that broken window for you, and will gladly accept live chickens as payment."



Edit…Oh, the edge of a piece of paper stuck to the plate for a line…sometimes as soon as I type the question, i see an answer!


----------



## upchuck

"Fileophobia" so that's what I have. Should I see a doctor? Any effective medications or treatments?


----------



## summerfi

Terry - The only time I strike a line on a saw plate is if the toothline is so out of straight that I have to take some off with an angle grinder. Trust me, if you joint your teeth so that all have shiners, and then file the teeth so all the shiners barely disappear, BUT NO MORE, your toothline and your gullets will be straight as an arrow. They have to be.

Chuck - the treatment for fileophobia is aspiration of a healthy dose of rust dust, followed by washing one's hands in mineral spirits, WD-40, or Simple Green, and then vigorous exercise of the hands and arms while holding a piece of roughened paper. Then, continue the exercise with a piece of triangular steel in the hands, moving the steel laterally across the edge of a second piece of flat steel. Works every time. No charge for the medical advice.


----------



## Brit

Terry!!! - You haven't gone and lost it. Dude!!! LOL.

Seriously, having seen the type of work you are capable of, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that you will be fantastic at saw sharpening after you get the first few saws under your belt.


----------



## Brit

Amen to that Bob.


----------



## bandit571

Have a few saws, just hanging around









Twin D-8 crosscut, 1940-47 vintage, aka The Twins. All sharpened back up and ready for work.

A few others were laying down on the job, though









Lay-abouts! Got all the toys out of the tool chests to start some screen door building. Meanwhile, another is off hiding in a corner









Might just get a bit crowded in the Dungeon for awhile









Three steps up from the bottom, still time to turn back…...


----------



## terryR

Andy, not lost…but, yeah, I'm a Dude till I find where I safely put it! Will download if needed…I have the power now! LOL.

Bob, that makes perfect sense about the straight line, Thanks.


----------



## Brit

> Three steps up from the bottom, still time to turn back…...
> 
> - bandit571


That's hilarious! Bandit - You're a machine.


----------



## planepassion

Bandit, those vice-grips that are next to that pretty, hanging saw…what do you use them for? Reason I ask, is I've got a few sets and haven't found a use for them…Nice try square by the way. Is that thing 18"?


----------



## bandit571

Square is a 12" one.

There is a jig in the picture, just three boards. There are the two uprights. I screw the base board down, insert the "victim" in-between the two uprights, and finger clamp the jig tight. I can now beat a mortise chisel as much as I want to make a mortise, without the victim moving around. Jig is placed right over a leg on the bench, less "bounce' that way.

The Visegrips are great for holding jigs and such in place. No screws to worry about hitting, either.

Items in the Toy photo
1 Gents saw
1 resharpened backsaw for tenon work
couple of decent mortise chisels
Mallet I turned on the lathe
couple of squares and tape measures
1-1/2 wide firmer chisel for the sides of the mortises
and an old all wood marking guage, made before they invented the second pin types….

Might be a fun project, a door built without any glued joints, other than a couple glued up raised panels


----------



## donwilwol

I had a question on facebook about a Imp saw. Anybody heard of it?


----------



## chrisstef

Ive heard of it Don and seen one on the bay but there aint much info out there on it that i could find. Its disston made for a period of maybe 20 years (i think) but thats about all i could dig up.


----------



## donwilwol

ha…..search ebay. Why didn't I think of that. Thanks Stef!


----------



## summerfi

"The Imp" was a Disston saw made in the early 20th century. It may have been made in Toronto, Canada. Here is a link to one that sold on eBay. The seller says it is listed in the 1918 Disston catalog.


----------



## ToddJB

Dearly esteemed panel I submit some questions.

I picked up the little Jackson saw the other day. It was $5, I was unable to resist.










As you can see the spine is pretty outta wack. Better seen here.










Too me it doesn't seem like there is a lot of room though between the top hole and the top if the plate. How far down should I knock the spine? And what is the proper method for doing so?

I also picked up this Stanley 42










It is missing the shoulder nut (real name?) on the front. Is this a special nut or can any old shoulder nut do?


----------



## summerfi

Todd, knock the spine down to just above the upper hole in the plate. Ideally, the plate should insert about half the depth of the spine. To knock it down, use a 2×2 piece of pine about 18" long (or similar dimension of other soft wood), lay the spine on a flat surface with teeth pointing up, and whack the teeth. You won't hurt them. Sounds harsh, but that's the proper way. Note that you may have to knock the spine UP at the toe end to make it parallel to the toothline.

On the saw set, I don't know the answer, but Stanley used add size threads in their planes, so it wouldn't surprise me if they did the same with their saw sets.


----------



## ToddJB

Thanks Bob! I'll make it happen.


----------



## donwilwol

> It is missing the shoulder nut (real name?) on the front. Is this a special nut or can any old shoulder nut do?
> 
> - ToddJB


A 10-32 will work. A wing but is your best bet.


----------



## ToddJB

> A 10-32 will work. A wing but is your best bet.
> 
> - Don W


I'll try it. I presumed I needed one that fit into that slot.


----------



## donwilwol

> A 10-32 will work. A wing but is your best bet.
> 
> - Don W
> 
> I ll try it. I presumed I needed one that fit into that slot.
> 
> - ToddJB


If the original fit in the slot, none of mine are original. Which is certainly possible.


----------



## ToddJB

Good to know. Thank you, Sir.


----------



## terryR

No going back for me…I'm already consumed by tooth geometry, and the desire for perfection. 

my humble saw vise…










Anyone need a good laugh this monday? Remember how I was bitching last year about how I hated the Veritas filing guide???

I was inserting the file backwards-doh! LOL! It seems to work a little better after reading the instructions…


----------



## chrisstef

Ha! Get her done Terry. You got this buddy!

Wise man once said …. "Shiners tell stories. Watch them speak to obtain glories".


----------



## summerfi

LOL Terry, that's pretty funny. So give us a progress report. How are those rip teeth looking?


----------



## donwilwol

I'm glad you found the errors of your ways Terry. Let us know if forward thinking changes the outcome


----------



## Brit

> I was inserting the file backwards-doh! LOL! It seems to work a little better after reading the instructions…
> 
> - terryR





















Now I feel bad, so here's some motivational quotes for you Terry:



















Now go get them teeth!


----------



## chrisstef

$10 says Terry comes back with a headache and a case of the duh's. I remember feeling slightly inebriated after my first foray into sharpening. We all know what happens when I try and concentrate too hard for too long.

While ive got attention:

Im working on a 7 ppi rip saw that I want to make a bit more aggressive. Existing rake is around 10 degrees and id like to take it down to about 5. Ive jointed it and the tooth line is in great shape, very even across the length of the plate. Now when I start filing im noticing that the shiner is gone after 2 strokes but im not hitting the entire tooth, just maybe the top half of it. Ill go back and joint it and shape until im hitting the entire tooth with the file. Is this the correct procedure or should I joint off more to start and only shape the teeth once? Thoughts?


----------



## terryR

Goodness, I think my stitches may come out from laughing so hard…

Sorry, Bob, no rip teeth until after the upcoming 4 day campout and vending event. Buffing and pricing everything in sight today. 

It's killing me, because I REALLY wanna play with that saw now. Especially since I've figured out that complex Veritas tool. I mean, it has TWO knobs for crying out loud! LOL!


----------



## theoldfart

Anybody see the #65 Simonds 9pt unused saw in Patricks latest list? Amazing considering Simonds stopped making saws in 1926, the etch is still blue!


----------



## summerfi

Stef - I think it's 6 of one and half dozen of the other. You get to the same point with either method.

Kevin - I think you deserve that Simonds. Perhaps a selfie retirement gift?

I can see it already…Terry is hooked on saw filing. In a couple months he's going to be an expert.


----------



## Brit

...knowing Terry, I'd say a couple of *weeks* Bob.


----------



## byerbyer

Have any of your restoration pros had something like this occur with Evaporust? I soaked the plate for about 6 hours and then flipped it for another 6 hour soak. I didn't have a tray long enough so I arranged some scrap plywood on the floor with a trash bag liner. Long story short I knew I wasn't going to get back to it for a couple days after I flipped it so I soaked a "clean" rag (fresh from the BORG box) and laid it on top of the plate so it wouldn't evaporate (per the instructions on the container. Well, I pulled the rag off there was an odd pattern from the rag in the black residue (where the rag folded/pleated) 
Here it is after cleaning with a Scotch Brite scour pad:








And a close up:









Now I don't know if these will clear up with some sanding, but the Scotch Brite sure didn't clean them up. I was going to use some gun blue to make the etch pop if it faded during cleaning, but with those lines I'm not so sure now.


----------



## chrisstef

Ive had it happen to me byer except with papertowels, on a no. 12. Ive never had any luck getting it off unfortunately. Thats not to say its not possible though. I took it as a learning experience and just sharpened it up and put it to work. I havent noticed any issues in performance. When evaporust dries it gets really gummy and sticky.

Fwiw, those cheap boot trays work really well for soaking saws. As to the bluing, id say go for it. Worst thing that could happen is that you accentuate the stain as a reminder . What kind of saw is that? Id love to see a bit more of the etch.


----------



## byerbyer

^Stef- It's a Disston D-8 (or D-7.) I posted the before pics a week or so on this thread. The handle was off a pruning saw they put on a Disston plate. I bought the saw for the etch and thought if nothing else it would look cool on the wall.

The etch is "Capitol City Hardware, W.L. Thompson, Topeka, KS." Being a KS boy and the fact I've rarely seen many etches with KS company's on them (in my rural corner of the state) I had shell out the $4 to have it.


----------



## ToddJB

Byer, I wonder what would happen if you gave it another soak in Evapo-rust, but making sure that area was covered by the flat part of the rag.


----------



## byerbyer

Todd - I'm not sure, but I'd venture to guess (if anything) it would "etch" the plate in a similar manner. I'm just guessing that something happens to the chelation when there is surface contact. I'm wondering if there isn't some acid hydrolysis (or oxidation reaction) occurring instead of the intended chelating reaction when it's not fully submerged. It been a few years (closer to a decade) since O-Chem but that'd be my guess… The stuff works great so I really can't complain, but I'll know better next time around.


----------



## summerfi

I've read on LJ somewhere about someone dunking a tool half way in evapo-rust, and later flipping it and dunking the other half. Left a ring around the tool where the surface of the evapo-rust was.

FWIW, and for right or wrong, I don't immerse saw plates in evapo-rust, I simply "paint" it on both sides with a cotton ball and leave the saw standing on end. Usually I'll repeat this twice. It seems to work OK, and I've never had any odd marks left. I usually do this after I've sanded the worst of the rust off.


----------



## terryR

Yeah, I've had that EvapoRust line appear as well…anyone tried wet sanding it off with more ER?

I picked up a shallow planter tray at the Borg…works well for saws that fit…also flashing can be formed to any size tray.

I've always propped the plate off the bottom of the tray with wood…still leaves a mark…wonder if steel spacers would leave a mark?

In my mind…dark and dirty…I can imagine a saw plate simply suspended by one of the tote holes into a deep container of ER. But, haven't splurged on 5 gallons of ER yet. Time for electrolysis?

Edit…Bob's method sounds pretty messy, but no marks!  Will try…


----------



## donwilwol

Yep, it must be completely submerged in evapo rust or you'll get an etch line.


----------



## Mosquito

yeah, I had the etch line from Evapo Rust before on the sides of a handplane before too


----------



## ToddJB

Have either of you found a minimally destructive way to get rid of said line?


----------



## Mosquito

I didn't even try… I just left it as it was


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Somewhere recently, I saw a guy post how he made a custom evaporust pan. Basically, he laid plastic on sand and formed a custom shape (of a saw plate). Then poured the evaporust.


----------



## byerbyer

Todd - I don't think there is a minimally destructive method. You can feel the etch with a fingernail. I'm going to polish mine up and chalk it up as a learning experience.

BRK - That sounds like a pretty clever idea. Wish I still had a sandbox!


----------



## 69BBNova

I've made pans out of steel then soldered the seams…

But the easiest thing I ever used was the plastic top from a big Rubbermaid container…

Shim it level then pour…

So easy it nuts.


----------



## donwilwol

I folded the sides up from a piece of aluminum flashing.


----------



## Wally331

Can't say I've used evaporust on any handsaws yet. Not that theres any problems with it, I just haven't had any problems with scraping or sanding the rust off. In the summer on real bad saws I will use an angle grinder with a non braided wire brush. Cleans up the saw real well and actually doesn't leave any scratches whatsoever. Spring steel is hard stuff….

I'm about to get my hands on a full foley setup this weekend. Probably every piece of machinery I could ever need. Good condition retoother with all the ratchet bars/carriers. Can't wait for it! I'll have a full setup for once I'm done with college and will be able to resume making saws full force. I've been waiting for a long time to get ahold of some foley equipment, and this being maybe 25 minutes away just makes it sweeter. Best part? He only wants $50 for almost everything he's got.


----------



## ToddJB

My gosh, Wally, that is awesome. What a deal.


----------



## Tugboater78

Gonna have to save up and buy some Wally saws before too long!


----------



## ksSlim

For planes, 6,7,8, use a wallpaper hangers "soak tray" used for wetting prepasted paper.
At the BORG, about $3. Easy to customize with glue used for styrene. (Model Glue)


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Congrats Wally. As fate would have it;-)


----------



## Brit

Good for you Wally. It couldn't have happened to a more diserving guy.


----------



## Brit

Dennis the Menace and Gnasher show us how not to saw.

Notice:

The incorrect four finger grip
The fact that he has his left hand in front of the saw
He is not holding the saw at the correct angle to the wood
The teeth have been filed to cut on the pull stroke with a positive rake angle
He is standing in a very unbalanced fashion

Gnasher's expression says it all.


----------



## Brit

*DOH!* ...and here's the image to go with my previous post. What a numpty!!!


----------



## AnthonyReed

> Dennis the Menace and Gnasher show us how not to saw.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Notice:
> 
> The incorrect four finger grip
> The fact that he has his left hand in front of the saw
> He is not holding the saw at the correct angle to the wood
> The teeth have been filed to cut on the pull stroke with a positive rake angle
> He is standing in a very unbalanced fashion
> 
> Gnasher s expression says it all.
> 
> - Brit


----------



## donwilwol

His socks are going to fill up with sawdust to!


----------



## Brit

Very true Don. He would be much better off with an 7ppi rip saw with 5 degrees of rake for that cut and he would find it more comfortable if he turned the table upside down and raised it about 16 inches off the ground so his saw would clear the floor.

We can learn so much from watching others, even if they are making a complete pig's ear of what they're doing.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Posted a blog about some tools I inherited. Interested if you guys have any input on the Warrented superior panel saw therein.


----------



## realcowtown_eric

new to me today…

SD half back flooring saw…. grungy, with a week etc.


----------



## LJD4662

I have a Disston D7 that is starting to develop a crack on the handle right around where my palm would grip. The crack is approximately a third the depth of the handle. Its very fine though and too small to get to get a decent amount of glue into. What can I do to make a repair here?

Layne


----------



## chrisstef

That floor saw is wicked cool. Is it half backed as well?


----------



## richardwootton

Why does that flooring saw have a curved toothline?


----------



## ToddJB

> Why does that flooring saw have a curved toothline?
> 
> - richardwootton


Uneven floors?


----------



## chrisstef

I believe it was for flooring that was laid down. The curved tooth line would allow you to make a cut without having to angle the saw. Thats my hypothesis at least.

Layne - id say some thin CA glue would be the best bet.


----------



## DanKrager

LOL…uneven floors! Maybe crooked boards?

The floor saws are unique because they sometimes need to start a cut in the middle of things where there is no edge. A curved tooth line permits that.

DanK


----------



## richardwootton

That makes total sense. I love this damn place.


----------



## realcowtown_eric

Ya, it's a half-bcked. I couldn't believe my luck to see it.

Brand is CDN ….Shurely Dietrich of galt Ont. Got a few of their saws in the rack….BUT NOW THIS ONE TOO!!!

The curved tooth line lets you start a cut in the middle of the floor…...so much easier with smaller skill saws these days.

Eric in Calgary


----------



## 69BBNova

My latest D8 came in about an hour ago, its in fair shape…

Out of my D8s this is by far the worst etch but will do for now…

All I know is that last year I found out I'm addicted to saws more than any other tools…

Blade has a bit of a curve, which is really not a giant deal to straighten. Just take it slow…

Teeth are screwy but right now I can't sharpen anymore, at least until I get a bit of control back. But I did regain a high percentage of my strength, funny thing is the occupational therapist asked if I was left handed because she had never seen the strain gauge go she high, in 8 days I got my right hand to just under 100lbs of force, thank God. Not what it was but good enough for now…

Spent Xmas and New Years in the hospital because of a stroke and I knew it was going to happen soon. Actually told my friends wife the week before my whole side went numb and tingley, but she had known for two years it was going to take something like this to get me seeing doctors again.

Not really sure why I told you guys but things happen.


----------



## summerfi

Nice looking D8 Bill, and glad to hear you're on the mend. Take care of yourself bud.


----------



## 69BBNova

Thanks Bob,

I should get the saws out to you and Chris next week…

There's gonna be extra surprises inside for both of you…

I'm glad you came home safe, Good to "See" you again.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Last week I posted about a saw (via my inheritance blog). Bob noted how much this saw with a warranted superior medallion looks like this Simonds saw: http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/z_BrickhouseF/Simonds/crescentM/crescentM.asp

Well, if this saw isn't made by Simonds, it's one heckuva counterfeit. The plate is 18.5" and the handle looks identical. Interesting stuff. 
My saw:








-
Simonds example:








-
It's cool to own the saw either way.

I updated my blog with a picture I received of my great, great grandfather. Here's the man who first owned the saw. Handsome chap.


----------



## DanKrager

Oh WOW, BRK. What a treasure to have picture AND the tool(s). Gotta love history like that.
DanK


----------



## richardwootton

That man has a mustache that would make Tom Selleck jealous! Very cool to have that inheritance saw…


----------



## summerfi

Handsome indeed. Do you know his occupation Red? What a treasure, both the saw and the picture.


----------



## pastahill

Like i wrote in the restoraton before and after forum, here are a few saws that i restored the last days.

The first is a dovetail saw from 
Wheatman, Smith & Russell works Sheffield made for G. Eastwood,
More photos from this saw are in the restoration forum.










The next is a Disston No.7, 12 inches long with apple wood handleand polished steel back, around from 1918


























Now a Disston No.112 from between 1903-17 skew back also with apple wood 6tpi

























The teeth are very badly filed, so i have to shape and sharpen them. My next projekt will be a saw vise i think!









The next is a german Baier saw 25 inches long filed 5 tpi. I dont know how old this saw is but i think maybe pre 1880 because of the splitnuts und the lamps tongue. The company exists since 1835 and is still making saws but mostly electic just a few hand saws.


























The next one is unrestored. I have no idea from whom and how old it is. She is 19 inches long, had split nuts and the handle is very small, like you see in the comparison with the Disston. I hardly bring just my 3 fingers in the hole and it´s more than tight. A nibb was filed but it is gone.










































If anybody has an idea, please let me know.

Last but not least a old scroll saw with an interesting two peace handle.


















I hope in the next month i have more time, because there are a few more saws and tools to restore and there is still a workbench waiting to build.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

> Handsome indeed. Do you know his occupation Red? What a treasure, both the saw and the picture.
> 
> - summerfi


Bob, I don't know what ol' Henry did for a living. That's one of the things I want to ask my Uncle next time we have lunch. I do know my great grandfather was a farmer. Actually, I've learned both sides of my ancestry had farms south of Lincoln NE. So moving out here was kinda like going back to my roots.


----------



## richardwootton

Pasta those look great! I really like the handle on the Disston 112.


----------



## summerfi

pastahill - you've done a really nice job of restoring those saws. The Wheatman & Smith is spectacular. The Disston backsaw is very nice. You don't see many Disston 112's. The No. 12 is much more common. Your 112 is in fantastic condition. The Baier saw is the oldest and nicest Baier I've seen. I've never seen a scroll saw like that one. It's quite unique. As for the 19" unmarked saw, it has some characteristics that suggest it may be quite an old saw. You should perhaps look at the plate again to see if there is any sign of a maker's stamp. In fact, in one of the pictures it looks like there may be a partial stamp (see the enlarged picture below). I would like to see you post pictures of that saw on backsaw.net and see what the experts there have to say about it. It is an interesting saw.


----------



## Airframer

My latest saw project..

A 12" Dollar store find. I plan to file down and round off the teeth and make a Disston style tote for it and give it to the boy for use on his workbench.


----------



## richardwootton

That's a great idea Eric. Those teeth look friggin huge! And from the pictures it looks like the set is huge!


----------



## Airframer

Yep, as a usable saw it is worth all of $1 lol. It seems perfect for what I need it for though.


----------



## Airframer

I did a little work on the saw plate today. Re-shaping was in order.



















Just need to make a new tote for it.


----------



## Tim457

$1 custom skewback for the spud. That's awesome.


----------



## Wally331

Good looking saws pastahill! May I ask what you used for finish? The d.112 is sweet.

Here is my haul for the weekend. Foley automatic retoother with 5 ratchet bars, and 6 carriers including straight, crowned, backsaw, and narrow blades plus a few duplicates. I also got the automatic saw filer, with about 5 dozen vintage saw files. Everything seems to work just fine and is in fair shape. It will all need some cleaning and lubrication + two new pulleys. Punch and die are very sharp and I stamped a few blades with ease just spinning the flywheel by hand.



























Finally I can make full sized saws with ease. Going to make a batch of 10 or so no. 12's this winter if anyone interested.


----------



## richardwootton

Wow! That tooth line looks very crisp and sharp! You should be able to make your money back in, oh I don't know, one saw!


----------



## richardwootton

Oh yeah, you deserve the gloat worthy recognition of, you suck!


----------



## ToddJB

Awesome!


----------



## GMatheson

Great score Wally. You're in business now


----------



## duckmilk

Very happy for you. Someday, maybe I can get a panel saw from you.


----------



## ErikF

Nice haul, Wally! I'll be hitting you up at the end of the year for a tutorial on the retoother. What model filer is it?


----------



## pastahill

Wally the finish on the handle is just BLO and a few coats of shellac and polished( matt) with a sisal brush in my drillpress. the steel is handsanded up to 400 wet ( WD 40) and polished a little bit with a felt wheel, same with the brass.


----------



## realcowtown_eric

Flooring saw update….

Cleaned grunge off, main etch I knew was there, but there was another….


----------



## richardwootton

Cool saw Eric!


----------



## terryR

Very cool flooring saw. Nice etch, too!

Congrats, Wally, I promise to help you recover the costs! Simply love all THREE saws I've picked up from ya…although I might order the next one with foley stamped teeth only so I can practice sharpening. 

I turned a small file handle yesterday from Bubinga…the pointy file tang wasn't helping me learn…

Have read TOO MUCH on sharpening the past 3days…my mind is all jumbled with 10 sawyer's opinions! What's a good rake for an 8ppi rip saw? 8 degrees?


----------



## chrisstef

Id think anywhere between 5 and 8 degrees would be fine Terry. Is it a panel saw?


----------



## terryR

^It's a 22" saw…so maybe cut down from full size?

Thanks, Stef…hey, Please PM me next time you order files!


----------



## chrisstef

Sent you a pm on the files Terry. The 22" would most likely be a regular production saw. As far as I know Disston did 20-30" saws in 2" increments. I only asked if it was a panel saw or a full size hand saw because I would treat them a little bit differently. A big rip saw say 28" would benefit from a very aggressive filing while a smaller panel saw would most likely benefit from a less aggressive filing.

FWIW ive been using some pferd files lately and ive taken a liking to them. toolzone.com was where I had purchased them.


----------



## summerfi

My son, who moved to Seattle this summer, bought me a whole pile of Foley saw sharpening stuff today. Mostly I wanted the retoother, but since it was so cheap ($150 for all) he bought the whole lot that includes a filing machine, setter, circle saw grinder, carbide saw grinder, 6 saw carriers, manuals, and who knows what else. The only bad part is there are no ratchet bars, which are necessary to run the retoother. I'll have to pay as much for 5 ratchet bars on ebay as I paid for everything else. Maybe I can sell some of the stuff I won't be using to offset the cost.

It's kind of funny that Erik, Wally, and I have all acquired Foley equipment in short order. Hopefully that means a river of saws will be flowing forth this winter. I can't wait to get the equipment home and start making $3 an hour!


----------



## donwilwol

and at $3 - $6 and hour, you'll be all set 

Nice !!


----------



## Wally331

Sweet Bob! I have all the manuals too, there is a price chart in one of them. Apparently I should be charging about $1.75 for a rerooth and sharpen


----------



## Wally331

You deserve a hearty "you suck" BTW.. am I allowed to say that after my own gloat? Lol…


----------



## richardwootton

Wally, you're officially disqualified from any and all future Foley related "you suck" comments. Unless of course some one scores for less than fifty bucks…


----------



## realcowtown_eric

All my carbides and plane/jointer go to one place here in Calgary. They still sharpen handsaws….7 bucks.

Obviously a loss leader, considering they ship them to Edmonton and back.

last backsaw had a set that you could drive a semi down the kerf….

I'd like to see some pix of the saw carriers you have, just to compare them to the ones I have…

Eric


----------



## ErikF

Wally and Bob, let me know when you guys want to open up shop. Between all the Foley equipment recently acquired we should be able to have a factory of sorts. Come January I'll be sitting on 4 lathes, 3 mills, Foley equipment, and starting a CNC router build. Just an idea…


----------



## richardwootton

Erik, I was just thinking how great it would be to set up a co-op, of sorts, for this very type of thing. Keep it all in house, respectively, and start small, building to something very awesome for everyone involved from customer to employee/partner.


----------



## Airframer

> Wally and Bob, let me know when you guys want to open up shop. Between all the Foley equipment recently acquired we should be able to have a factory of sorts. Come January I ll be sitting on 4 lathes, 3 mills, Foley equipment, and starting a CNC router build. Just an idea…
> 
> - ErikF


Come January I might be in the market for a job… I am REALLY good at sweeping… just sayin' ;-)


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Good to hear Bob. Congrats.

I should have built a bigger saw till.


----------



## Airframer

.


----------



## terryR

Hey, come January, I might need a job, too! Can shape totes and also sweep floors…love to disassemble vintage stuff and clean every thread…

Cannot brag on my sharpening skills yet…but I have at the least started down the narrow path…

Although IF Wally is offering sharpening at $1.75, I'm wasting money on swiss files! LOL!


----------



## chrisstef

FWIW - Hand Saws for Sale


----------



## ErikF

Looking for someone that is willing to work for used saw files, scrap spring steel, and small cutoffs. Can't afford medical insurance but I can offer a fully stocked first aid kit (expired) and the pride that comes with working 12 hour days.


----------



## summerfi

Nice looking saws Stef. Best of luck finding them a new home.

Erik, does that job come with a free lunch and a corner of the shop to roll out a sleeping bag?


----------



## ErikF

I am not heartless, Bob. First employee gets his pick of floor space…after the first and last months rent is paid in full.


----------



## summerfi

OK, I assume you require payment in scrip at the company store too.


----------



## ToddJB

If you throw in a tetanus shot and team hugs - I'm your man. Will you need references? Cause that might be a problem.


----------



## ToddJB

.


----------



## Brit

Eirk - Do you cover expenses. I only fly business class, but I make a mean cup of coffee and tell good jokes.


----------



## ErikF

Bob- I'm not old enough to know how to operate that system but I will ensure all employees know how well they will be taken care of, especially if they don't pay rent on time.

Andy- My grandfather always told me that you can tell a lot about a business by how good the coffee is and how hard the jokes make you last. I can't fly you business but I know a guy that knows a guy with a boat.


----------



## upchuck

> Bob- I m not old enough to know how to operate that system but I will ensure all employees know how well they will be taken care of, especially if they don t pay rent on time.
> 
> Andy- My grandfather always told me that you can tell a lot about a business by how good the coffee is and how hard the jokes make you last. I can t fly you business but I know a guy that knows a guy with a boat.
> 
> - ErikF


"...but I know a guy that knows a guy with a boat." 
This reminds me of the H.W. Tilman 1959 ad in the London Times "Hand (man) wanted for long voyage in a small boat. No pay, no prospects, not much pleasure." He got a crew.

chuck


----------



## terryR

hey, 12 hour work days, no breaks or decent meals, sleeping on a cot (or the back of my truck), no insurance or respect…

I have over 20 years of experience with that type of work! LOL! I just KNEW that ICU Nursing would look good on my resume one of these days!!!

Sorry, but I can only drink freshly ground coffee beans from Africa or Indonesia…

And, if there's a drug test involved, I only do well at the written type!


----------



## bandit571

Just nack in from a rust hunt this morning:

$1 got a Disston 7PPI
with nib
with Lamb's tongue
with just the right anount of bolts to make it a #7

A smaller WS was bought, to supply ONE half of a bolt.

Photos when I can get set up for them….

BTW: WS was a $1, and picked up a handful of old wrenches (6) for $0.60

BTW 2: 15/16" medallion with the & SONS.


----------



## planepassion

Ah bandit, you are living up to your moniker! Congratulations, those lamb's tongues are some serious kind of cool.

The best I ever did was $3.00 for a Distton D-8 thumby. Or $0.00 if you count the estate sale D-7 I was given (it was either that or off to the dump with it) that had a kink I had to fix. Works great now.

Hurry up and get your photo studio setup already!


----------



## bandit571

Well, remember, I haven't started to clean it up…yet









The tote end, still has that $1 price tag on it. And a nib









Doesn't look like it was ever sharpened.









Bit fuzzy. Full length 7ppi feels like rip cut. Haven't looked for an etch…yet.

Have a screen door to finish up ( almost ready for the primer, too)


----------



## planepassion

Ooooh. All nice and barn fresh there bandit.


----------



## donwilwol

Erik, I think as an employer you're supposed to paint a really pretty picture when advertising. At least that's why I no longer have much LJ time! But then, I always was a slow learner.


----------



## Airframer

Saw slot is cut and new mounting holes and hardware installed. The weee one approves.



















Now onto the shaping phase..


----------



## summerfi

Sweet saw Eric. Glad to see you're training him right.


----------



## richardwootton

Thanks fellas! I am officially signed up an I hope my debit card isn't readily available.

For all of you saw makers, you totally need a "power hack saw"!
http://littlerock.craigslist.org/tls/4685008547.html


----------



## racerglen

Slowly getting some work caught up. this is the tote from the 28" Atkins badged backsaw that came with my 358 mitre box.








I'd thought it looked a bit different when it arrived home, then after a dismount and start on cleaning I realized what it was.










The handle had been broken lord knows how many years ago and repaired, a solid repair, but not the finest.
Now do I cut the curve into the bottom ahead of the horn, or just clean up the old repair and add some BLO ?

Oh and the saw itself (thanks to my nephew Stu with much younger eyes) is a Shurley Dietrich Atkins Limited saw, made in Galt Ontario, "expresly for" Stanley Tool Co. of Canada, Roxton Pond, Quebec.
The S/D company started in the 1880 or 90's and was bought up by Atkins in the 1900's.
The nickle plated medalion says "E.C. Atkins, Hamilton, Ontario around the triple A logo.


----------



## upchuck

Glen-

Your saw. Your hand. Make yourself happy and make the two fit each other. I'd modify the handle rather than the hand. Just my $0.02.

chuck


----------



## racerglen

Chuck, it fits, I guess the question is.. do I make the bottom horn area look more like an era correct tote,
or do I keep the antique repair as is, a tribute to the woodworker who tried to keep the handle functional ?
Some other things I've stripped back, reshaped etc, but this one ..meh..Dunoh..


----------



## upchuck

Glen-

I understand. Since it fits, since it is a solid repair then the issue is less urgent and more historical, ethical, esoteric, and personal. Do what feels right to/for you. Would you object to some woodworker changing your repair at some distant time in the future? *If* it was my saw I'd complete the cleaning up and I'd put a dose of BLO on it. I'd sharpen it, use it, think about it, and if the saw didn't sing to me I'd add it to my to do list. I expect to die with my 'to do' list fully intact. I hope with many changes but fully intact.

chuck


----------



## Brit

Personally Glen, I'd put the horn back to how it should be. The bottom horn is important in helping take the weight of a saw, especially one that long. However, having said that, I suppose you will always use it in a miterbox so it might not matter.


----------



## ToddJB

Veritas file holder owners, can one of you tell me how thick this bad Johnny is? As in, what's the shallowest drawer it will fit in?


----------



## chrisstef

Call it 2 1/2" thick todd. Off the top of my head.


----------



## ToddJB

Thank you, Sir.


----------



## racerglen

Chuck, nicely put. my list likely will remain as well ;-)
Andy, you're right on the mitre box use, the thing's a beast, 28" with a thick spine adds up the weight real fast !


----------



## 69BBNova

Racer…I think in this case because the saw has no sentimental value your free to do what you want…

Only if I had know the person who repaired the handle I would leave it as is, because that would make it more difficult for me to change.


----------



## racerglen

'69BBN good points, no cuts as yet, a wee glue up on a crack at the front is underway, but the pencil line is in place
to reshape the bottom horn area.


----------



## bandit571

All cleaned up. Might not even need a sharpening









$1 at a garage sale. Almost missed it, too.









7 ppi crosscut. WITH NIB, mind you.









One small crack in the tote, closed right up with a bit of BLO.

Thinking it MAY be a Disston No.7?









Could barely make out the scales in the etch, the rest is long gone. Medallion reads

H. Disston & Sons

No comma after the & Sons, just a star. Might be worth a dollar…...


----------



## bandit571

BTW: I did give this a test drive. Crosscut some Pine 1×4, on the flat. Cuts fast, and a bit rough. And straight as the hand that guides it. Now, IF I can teach that saw operator how to actually SAW….


----------



## BigRedKnothead

I found another neglected Lie Nielsen and I just *had* to save it. It appears somebody bought this no 112, lacquered the handles, and put it on a shelf. The factory grind had never been touched.









-
Unfortunately its storage position cause some oxidation in a line on the sole. 









-
I cleaned the whole thing lightly with barkeepers friend. I attempted to dull the shiny lacquer with steel wool and past wax. She's looking good now. 








-









-
I couldn't quite get that little line totally out of the sole. It's like very mild pitting. I'm sure it could be lapped out…but I'm not nearly that worried about it. 








-
I really do enjoy finding Lie Nielsen tools used when I can. We all know it's tough to find them for a big savings, however you can save some cash if your patient. I doubt Lie Nielsen tools will have big changes and "types" as Stanley tools did, but there are small changes/nuances in there tools over the past 30 years. I just enjoy noting these things and putting the tools back in good order.

-


----------



## Brit

You HAD to save it Red. It would've been rude not to.


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## richardwootton

Did you find that in the wild Red?


----------



## donwilwol

Red, you've got a nose for that LN scent!


----------



## summerfi

For your viewing pleasure, here's a couple saws that sold on ebay in the past few days.

1865-ish Disston No. 9 with cone nuts. Sold for $777.57.










1855 patent date Disston & Morss No. 43 Combination. Sold for $550.00.










I remember someone once saying here that they would never pay over $2 for a used handsaw. It seems not all handsaws are created equal though. ;-)


----------



## donwilwol

thanks for posting that Bob. I need to understand saw values better. I knew that before, but that really sends it home.


----------



## summerfi

My Foley equipment arrived from Seattle today, along with a matching air compressor.


----------



## Brit

Nice saws Bob and nice Foley stuff. I'm thinking it won't be long before we see a matching set of handsaws in your projects. )


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## ToddJB

All that for $150, Bob? Wow.


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## summerfi

The compressor was a separate deal Todd. It was $75.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Ahh crud, I totally mean post that LN on the RESTORE forum. My Bad.


----------



## richardwootton

And here I was thinking you meant to put that on the HPOYD thread.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Well, I did flip a backsaw to help pay for the no 112….so totally related.


----------



## bandit571

On the WS saw I bought for parts,,,,Nothing really worth using….except

The "medallion" is a flat piece of metal, stamped into the shape of a medallion. Brass edging, red field. Eagle and the Warranted Superior. Has four points sticking down ( SHARP little buugers) that held the dics in place, no bolt.

Well, maybe I should make a small circle on the lid of the new Tool Chest, just the right size and depth to install this little medallion into the lid? Maybe buff it up all nice and shiny?

A Warranted SUPERIOR Tool Chest.. Style, people, we do it with STYLE!


----------



## racerglen

Alright Bandit, STYLE !
Gotta love it !


----------



## theoldfart

Works for me Bandit, go for it.


----------



## john2005

Just catching up. Looks like a full on factory should be swinging come 2015. Lookin forward to that. Bob, I'm gonna have to try harder to get over there…


----------



## Hullguitars

That's a really neat find!!! Are you planning on selling anything in that chest? I am really on the look out for 20" panel saws. Good luck on your cleaning and restorations!


----------



## terryR

Hmmm…Cool medallion mounted on tool chest.

Excellent idea! Must shop…unless anyone here has vintage logo that has no use? 

Millers Falls, Sargent, P,S,&W, Goodell Pratt, Stanley SW, Harvey Peace…...............


----------



## bandit571

MIGHT have a DE medallion somewhere…...but it is a bolt type..


----------



## racerglen

The Arkins/Stanley backsaw ..DONE 








I had an OCD moment when I realized the AAA medalion wasn't lined up, but..that's the way it came from the factory 









But I did clock the screws.. actualy had to readjust the spine after evening it out, seems I went too far and couldn't line up the screws.
But all's well..









28" of well hung STEEL !..


----------



## donwilwol

Nice work Glen. It looks great.


----------



## Brit

Shiny. Looks fantastic Glenn.


----------



## terryR

Looks great, Glen, that's a lot of steel!

Right! What's all this about calves and cows? This saw sharpening thing seems pretty straightforward to me!










...like a Sunday's walk! 

Ummm…was I supposed to reverse the rake angle on my Veritas jig when I reversed the plate in the vise?

Good grief, don't let Andy see that photo…


----------



## racerglen

Thanks guys, from three masters that's much apreciated !
I'd thought the nuts were chrome, but discovered they were actualy nickle plate, surprizing what a touch of Autosol did to them..


----------



## lateralus819

After seeing TerryR' photo, i don't feel so bad with my last sharpening attempt!


----------



## Brit

Too late Terry.


----------



## Tim457

Oh the horror that poor lady bug has to see and walk upon. Where's the bleach for my eyes?

In all seriousness though, the only person not making any mistakes is the guy not trying to do anything or make anything. Go make some more zingers like that Terry and soon you'll be a sharpening pro.


----------



## terryR

^yes, flogging and reading…flogging and reading…

Actually, my rake angle was set to something ridiculous before I realized how to correctly set the jig, after that all was lost. Time to joint again…

Ahhh, the learning curve. I broke 3 rocks in 1/2 yesterday before finishing a nice arrowhead on the 4th!


----------



## lateralus819

Mine looked like that. I think i have too big of a file.

It did cut though! LOL. I love how Thomas Lie Nielsen says to "Not worry about messing up a saw"

I mean, who WANTS to take a file to a LN or any other high end saw and mess it up? I get practicing on a vintage saw.


----------



## Mosquito

My retoothing looked similar… need to get the hang of that myself…


----------



## terryR

On a serious note, how about a question for the esteemed panel?

The teeth I'm re-shaping used to be filed for x-cut, and had an enormous set to them…still slightly present even after my jointing, etc. I saw a bloke on youTube place a black sharpie point on his flats before shaping, and have tried that myself just to help see where I left off! 

My question…with the heel of the saw to my right, and lil black flats leaning towards me on every other tooth, should my file be in front of the flat, or behind it? Or should I say to the left of the flat, or the right?

Or is everyone still laughing at the last photo?


----------



## summerfi

Here's how I do it Terry. I don't know if everyone does it the same. First make sure you have really good light. You have to be able to see those flats or shiners really well. I don't know how your eyesight is, but I have to wear a pair of those funny looking magnification glasses. It's critical to be able to see exactly what you're doing.

I have a flat on both sides of my file. If I've filed the previous tooth correctly, the flat on the right side of the file is about half as wide as the flat on the left aide. I file until the flat on the right side disappears and the flat on the left is half as wide as it was. Then I move on to the next tooth. That of course is in a perfect world with teeth evenly spaced. What you'll find as you gain more experience is that teeth are seldom evenly spaced when you start, and you have to fudge it by applying more pressure on the right or left side of your file to even the teeth out. If I have a bad saw, I don't try to complete the filing on each tooth as I progress. I'll take 2 or 3 passes down the saw, getting the teeth a little better each time until they are finally done. I wish you were here for a day, because it's much easier to show than to tell this stuff. Watch Andy's video again. It's the best instruction you'll find.


----------



## JayT

> Or is everyone still laughing at the last photo?
> 
> - terryR


This! 

I'm still too new to sharpening to answer your question intelligently. You'll also notice I'm not posting any pics of sharpening attempts for others' amusement. There is a definite learning curve and I don't sharpen enough consistently to stay in practice.


----------



## chrisstef

I back what Bob has said 100% and i PM'd you the same thing Terry. We'll get you through this!

I think the easiest way to wrap your head around it is that when you are filing, you aren't filing just one tooth, youre filing one half of two different teeth. The front side of one and the back side of another.


----------



## Brit

Don't get him through it yet. I haven't finished laughing.
Try wearing a blindfold Terry to help channel the force. I mean how much worse can it get. )


----------



## terryR

Thanks, Bob, that all makes sense. Yep, very hard to ask and answer questions with words…would give anything for a master to show me in person for 10 minutes!  But, heavy sigh, I appear to have lost my copy of Andy's masterpiece, and it's hard to download out here in the country. Might have to stay in a motel one night that has high speed connection…would be worth every penny! Hey, IF anyone has the ability to place it on a flash drive, and in the mail, please PM.

Bob, are you sitting or standing? I find it easier to keep alignment by standing…maybe a real saw vise would help since the leg vise is lower? Will work on a simple solution…

JayT, I'm a galoot…cannot hide it! LOL. Have friggin degrees in Nursing, Math, and Computer Engineering…but would trade any of them for a year at CT Valley School of Woodworking. I realized I was making a mess yesterday, and just went with it for a good photo. Love you guys like family, and thought you deserved a good laugh, even at my expense. 

Heck, I fully expect to order a fancy magnifying glass, and come out with calves and cows next time! But…I KNOW in the end, I'll get it. That keeps me going. Now, troubleshooting the engine in our lawnmower…that will always be hit or miss for me. I just don't get it…


----------



## terryR

^thanks, Andy!
I suppose you are correct…I can't do WORSE than yesterday!


----------



## summerfi

Terry, on second thought, don't listen to Andy. He's just plain cruel. LOL

I file standing up, and the teeth are approximately at elbow level. I use this for light and this for magnification. Both are Harbor Freight.


----------



## Brit

Ok, I feel bad now. The good news is Terry, that you already know your mistake in that you didn't reverse your rake angle when you started filing from the other side of the plate. The other good news is that although your teeth are filed incorrectly as a consequence of that, they are more or less consistently incorrect. That tells me that had you reversed your rake angle, they wouldn't have been half bad.

We've all been there though Terry. This was my first attempt at saw filing. Looks like the Himalayas.


----------



## Brit

I can't imagine sitting down to file a saw. For me it would feel very strange.

I stand up and like Bob, I have the teeth at elbow level so my forearm is more or less horizontal when filing.


----------



## terryR

PM received and understood, Stef, Thanks!

Have to admit, I've been sorta 'filing by the seat of my pants' so far. Got to get serious about vision, vise, and attitude. Part of my problem is also some rat chewed through my Veritas file holder instructions, and I had to piece it together right where it told how to adjust rake angle. My intuition was completely different than the directions! 

...still laughing over Andy's opinion…I can take it! 

Edit…Andy, I remember that first filing, and a photo of you sitting on the kitchen floor. Will never forget it! Keeps me going, considering where your skills are now!!!!!!!


----------



## chrisstef

Its a little hard to read but it says , #1 - no flat, #2 - half size flat, #3 - full size flat:










This is what youre looking for Terry. After you've jointed all the teeth and have flats across the board, you insert the file in between teeth 1 and 2. You file until tooth #1 has no flat remaining and tooth #2 has a flat roughly half the size of tooth #3. Then you insert the file in between #2 and #3 until tooth #2 has no flat and tooth #3 has a flat that is half the size of the prospective tooth #4. Rinse and repeat about 150 times.

If you see tooth #1 lose its flat before tooth #2's flat is half the size of #3, this is where you start to bias your file.


----------



## chrisstef

FWIW - I like to sit down but you gotta rock it side saddle. It seems easier to sit and file when doing backsaws instead of handsaws.


----------



## summerfi

Now you guys have me laughing. So Terry, a rat ate your instructions??? That sounds a little too much like the dog ate my homework.

And now it's time to pick on Andy. Andy, you must be a really short guy if the teeth are at elbow level when the saw is chucked up in your workmate.


----------



## Brit

I stand in a hole Bob. ) Actually, it appears to be a couple of inches below elbow level.


----------



## Brit

The rats probably didn't like the screeching file Terry, so they decided to take preventative action. Good news is, you can view and print a new copy of the Veritas Saw File Holder instructions at the link below.

http://www.leevalley.com/en/shopping/Instructions.aspx?p=71777


----------



## Mosquito

> I can t imagine sitting down to file a saw. For me it would feel very strange.
> 
> I stand up and like Bob, I have the teeth at elbow level so my forearm is more or less horizontal when filing.
> 
> - Brit


I do the same when I'm sharpening as well.


----------



## terryR

Thanks for the link, Andy.

Yeah, nobody ever mentioned the screeching noise I was in for except Stef…

Luckily, thus far, it does NOT seem to attract goats or pregnant sows!


----------



## chrisstef

Lol, yea its an interesting noise to get used to Terry. I vouch for earbuds and the ipod to tone it down. Ive also been known to turn on the air filter just for some background noise. Just wait until your file gets dull or your vice doesn't cinch down tight enough.


----------



## summerfi

> Yeah, nobody ever mentioned the screeching noise I was in for except Stef…
> 
> Luckily, thus far, it does NOT seem to attract goats or pregnant sows!
> 
> - terryR


Yeah, but watch out for the saw-whet owls during breeding season. They come in by the thousands.


----------



## summerfi

Hey Terry, there's still hope for your saw sharpening. You haven't hit bottom yet.


----------



## terryR

^that's where I'm currently headed, Bob. Gonna look up Mark Harrell's address again. LOL.

Seriously, I started a saw clamp yesterday from birch ply and pine to hold the plate a bit higher in the leg vise or Moxon, so my fading eyes can see those calves and cows and goats! As soon as I fix the hole in the fence where our 200 pound hog found his way out yesterday, I'm back on it…


----------



## terryR

Fence update:
One section of 8" diameter fencing pole laid harshly on the ground and many staples used to connect bottom of square type fence to said pole. Several 60 pound bags of quickrete thrust on top of said pole…rain dance performed. I don't think the hog can move that much mass…I barely could!

...oh bollocks, wrong forum…


----------



## summerfi

Saw vise looking good Terry. No comment on the hog fence.


----------



## donwilwol

sounds like the hog is under control and the calves and cows will be soon as well Terry.


----------



## ToddJB

What are the calves and cows referring to?


----------



## summerfi

Alternating small and big teeth.


----------



## ToddJB

Thanks Bob.


----------



## Brit

Looking good Terry. Won't be long now.


----------



## ToddJB

Saw till makers, I'm building mine currently. Inside measurement is 20.5" wide. With an inch buffer on each side, and leaving an inch for each handle, that would leave me 15/16th in between each handle if I made the till for 10 saws. Does that seem like enough space?


----------



## Mosquito

That's more spread out than I made mine. I put the slots at 1.25" gaps between them, making the saw handles closer to 1/2" apart


----------



## summerfi

Most saw handles are 7/8" or less, so you're really leaving over an inch between saws. I would leave less space between saws and get one or two more saws in there, but just my opinion. I think 1/2" between saws is enough.

Edit: Mos beat me to the punch, but at least we were thinking the same.


----------



## ToddJB

Okay. If I did 12 saws with an inch buffer on each side of the till that would leave me with just a hair under 3/4" of an inch between handles. I'll have to lay it out to see how it looks. Just don't want it to feel crammed.

12 saws… who needs 12 saws? (tongue planted firmly in cheek)

Mos, you're till in not in your projects.


----------



## Mosquito

I think the only pictures I had posted in forums. I'll have to get some more actual pictures uploaded, and do a project post for it…


----------



## Mosquito

At the moment, this is the only one I can find


----------



## ToddJB

Ha. I was just poking fun. If you look at my project page you'll see how much room I have to comment on those who have not posted theirs.


----------



## Mosquito

It was one of those projects that I decided to do on a whim, so I wasn't really in the picture-taking zone lol I usually take quite a few pictures of projects, but shop projects often fall behind in that effort


----------



## BigRedKnothead

> Ha. I was just poking fun. If you look at my project page you ll see how much room I have to comment on those who have not posted theirs.
> 
> - ToddJB


Ya Todd. I'm not talking to you again until you contribute something to the community!


----------



## chrisstef

That's ginger on ginger crime right there ^


----------



## ToddJB

Hahaha. Yes, Sir.


----------



## RPhillips

Question, is there a dimensional drawing anywhere of Bad Axe DT Saw handle? I really like the look of it and would like to try my hand at making one for my old Keystone Tenon saw.


----------



## summerfi

Rob - not that I know of. There are sources with drawings of other handles though. If you're interested in any of those let me know.

Well I ran the first saws through my new Foley retoother tonight. The top saw is just a junker that I did for practice. The bottom saw is one I'm fixing up for john2005's little boy. Both are retoothed at 8 ppi. The stuff in the upper right is the clippings the retoother makes when cutting new teeth. Wow, this is sure a lot better than cutting teeth by hand. It takes less than a minute to retooth a saw.


----------



## richardwootton

Wow Bob, that's awesome! Those teeth look like just about sharp enough to cut as is…


----------



## Mosquito

Results look promising Bob!


----------



## ToddJB

Dang. That's super cool. Do you have to take off the old teeth before you put it in the machine?


----------



## summerfi

No, it stamps right over the old teeth.


----------



## ToddJB

Sweet action.


----------



## Brit

No stopping you know Bob. Looks good.


----------



## ErikF

That is impressive, Bob. How much sharpening is needed after the teeth are cut?


----------



## terryR

> It takes less than a minute to retooth a saw.
> 
> - summerfi


Hmmm…more intrigued I am!


----------



## summerfi

Erik - I was surprised how sharp the teeth seem to be, but I would liken it to after you've shaped the teeth by hand. You still need to set and sharpen them.


----------



## DonBroussard

Looking good, Bob! Less than a minute to retooth, and you don't have to joint the old teeth off first? Just beautiful!


----------



## Wally331

Hey bob, what percentage of those little chips actually end up in the little sheet metal drawer? I have stamped a ton of teeth and there are barely any in the drawer. Can't seem to find the rest of them though hahaha


----------



## chrisstef

One Harvey Peace coming your way Bob! Ill take 10ppi please.


----------



## Brit

Less than a minute eh? Wish I lived in the US.


----------



## donwilwol

So, at $6/hr, the cost to get my saw teeth recut is…...

Haha, it even makes the shipping cost less painful!

;-)


----------



## summerfi

Wally, the little tray was missing on my machine. I inserted a little plastic tray instead and caught maybe 75% of the chips.

Stef, send it on. The first one's on the house for you bud.

Andy, you'd be welcome in the US any time, but I'm sure you could ship a retoother to England for something like a King's ransom. You do have electricity there don't you?

Don, the going rate for retoothing in the Foley manual is 50 cents. I realize that's a lot, but a guy has to eat, you know.


----------



## terryR

^sounds like an amazing time-saver! Plus, it bypasses a step that I suck at! LOL.

Saw vice completed










more photos on the Blog


----------



## john2005

> Well I ran the first saws through my new Foley retoother tonight. The top saw is just a junker that I did for practice. The bottom saw is one I m fixing up for john2005 s little boy. Both are retoothed at 8 ppi. The stuff in the upper right is the clippings the retoother makes when cutting new teeth. Wow, this is sure a lot better than cutting teeth by hand. It takes less than a minute to retooth a saw.
> 
> - summerfi


Sweeeet! The little guy is gonna be stoked! For those of you who dont know, that started out as a super fine 40 ppi saw. Gonna be way better now!


----------



## richardwootton

Terry, that saw vise looks great!


----------



## RPhillips

Suggestions for removing stubborn T-nuts? Got a couple old saws from my Dad and I would like to refurb them, but I have one fastener that is spinning in the handle. Any tips? I have ways to get it out, but thought I would ask if you guys had any tircks to get it out.

Also, where can I find replacement hardware?


----------



## chrisstef

I use a couple of clamps and clamp the handle to my bench (err .. piece of ply on saw horses). Its usually enough to hold it from spinning out. As to replacement hardware im a tag sale kinda guy. $2 saws with brass hardware is always worth it.


----------



## summerfi

Rob, the way I do it is clamp the saw handle between two blocks of hardwood. One of the blocks should have a hole in it larger than the screw head. Fit your screwdriver through the hole and unscrew the stuck screw. Pressure from the block on the reverse side will hold the head in place.

These are the only new saw screws I know of. Otherwise you can rob the screws off a junker saw. There are used saw screws for sale all the time on ebay.


----------



## Mosquito

for saw nuts:
http://tgiag.com/sawnuts.html
http://www.blackburntools.com/new-tools/new-saws-and-related/saw-bolts/index.html
http://www.badaxetoolworks.com/bad-axe-fasteners.php

I've never gotten any bad axe saw nuts, but between the other two I prefer the tgiag kit more.


----------



## ColonelTravis

Was at a flea market today and found some nice old tools, including a Disston something, haven't been able to pin down the model yet, nothing fancy. But a dealer saw my saw and asked if I was a collector and I said - no, but I use them. And she told me about a saw she got somewhere in Minnesota and it had a train etching on it. She asked if I'd ever seen one like that, she had never been able to find out anything about it. She said a few people offered her a few hundred bucks but since she didn't know the value or anything else about it she's never sold it yet. She did not have it in her booth, it was at her house. The only train saw I could come up with is the Fast Mail ones, and I think that's what she has. But since I couldn't see it, and she didn't remember anything else but the etching, we weren't sure.

Are there any other saws with locomotives etched on them?

Bob I'm jealous of your retoother - that is awesome.


----------



## summerfi

I sold a Norvell's Fast Mail saw on ebay a while back. It had a locomotive etch, but it was a cheaply made, low quality saw. I think there are a few other saws with a train etch, but as to their quality I can't vouch. I'd be surprised if they were worth hundreds.


----------



## ColonelTravis

Thanks, Bob. The lady said, "Maybe I can keep it for my grandson's college education." And I was thinking - yeah, if the entire thing was made of pure gold you could maybe do that.


----------



## bandit571

Trying to decide what to do with an "extra" saw

DE on the medallion

Seems to have a new blade in the handle…

Found the OEM blade…....could see why the other is mounted. 20" skew back, bad teeth, BIG crack about 3" from the toe. Flimsy feel to it, too. Handle seems to be in great shape, hardware is all brass.

Might put it up for adoption, er, auction with maybe three other orphans.

Second "extra' saws:

I happen to have THREE D-8s! I am keeping the almost new, been sharpened once in it's lifetime, 8 ppi. The other two are almost the same, one is from the same era as the one I am keeping, the other is a little newer.

Older one is from 1940-47, the newer one is from 1953-55. Both are also 8ppi.

Sell as singles? Or, as a pair?


----------



## ErikF

Picked up this BeMaCo Rapid Saw Set Model B2 today. I have never seen one before and am not finding a lot on the web about it. Looks like it was also sold as a Model J400 by Oregon Select, Inc. I was lucky enough to get an instruction manual with the purchase ($30 for everything) so I hope I can figure it out. It appears to be in great shape and runs smoothly.


----------



## summerfi

This is a John Spear No. 7 27" rip saw. The length is a bit unusual, but I can see no indication it has been shortened. It is filed at 5 ppi progressing to 6 ppi at the toe.

John Spear was making saws under his own name in Sheffield before forming a partnership with Samuel Jackson in 1830. Spear & Jackson has been making and selling saws ever since. Like many saw makers, Spear & Jackson used different names for their various lines of saws. This saw is not a pre-1830 Spear saw, but rather a saw made by Spear & Jackson and named in honor of the company's founder. The book British Saws and Saw Makers dates this saw at 1860. Page 545 of the book shows a picture of the identical etch as is on this saw.




























This is a good saw, but it's not one of my favorites. So it may go on ebay at some point (I can't keep them all). If anyone here has an interest in it, let me know and we'll see if we can work something out. It would be especially useful for someone with large hands, as the handle is quite roomy.


----------



## summerfi

Wow Erik, that's a cool machine. And at that price quite a bargain too. Did you find it locally? Let us know how it works.


----------



## Brit

When you figure it out Erik, I'd love to see a little video of it in action. Looks like a great find.


----------



## Brit

Nice saw Bob. Never seen one of those before.


----------



## ErikF

That sure is a pretty saw Bob.

I'll post a video once I move it out to the shop and give it a test run. I first thought there would be carriers but it looks as though there is a set of pawls used to feed in either direction. Sets from 4 1/2 tpi to 16 tpi and is adjustable using some linkage on the back.


----------



## duckmilk

> Picked up this BeMaCo Rapid Saw Set Model B2 today. I have never seen one before and am not finding a lot on the web about it. Looks like it was also sold as a Model J400 by Oregon Select, Inc. I was lucky enough to get an instruction manual with the purchase ($30 for everything) so I hope I can figure it out. It appears to be in great shape and runs smoothly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It appears to be never used from that picture. Great find. I too would like to see a video of it working.
> 
> - ErikF


----------



## ToddJB

Erik, cool thingamajig. Also, we have the same convertible booster seat… Not as rare as an auto-setter. but used daily.


----------



## DonBroussard

ErikF-I would have bought that thing for $30 and figured out later what I had bought. I'm glad it ended up in your hands, because you have the manual and will figure it out and put it to good use. +1 on the video when you get it back in service.


----------



## duckmilk

Not sure what happened with my previous post. I meant to say I'd like to see a video of it in action also. Looks little used. Nice find Erik.


----------



## ErikF

Todd- gotta love the convertible booster seat.

I messed around with the setter this evening, it's a neat machine. One of the feeding pawls is a little off but I think a file will take care of it. I'll put a video up in the next day or two.


----------



## RPhillips

Thanks for the advice guys, I'll give that a try.


----------



## terryR

Nice score, ErikF. Cannot wait to see it action…

Bob, that's a gorgeous saw! You certainly have the eye for fine vintage tools! Do you find them locally, or can you share your secret?

PM coming your way…


----------



## ErikF

Here is a video of the saw set in action. Not something I would want to go to bed to…

BeMaCo


----------



## summerfi

Erik - That's the coolest thing I've seen today. I really like it. Does it do a good job?

Terry - I live in a place where vintage tool picking opportunities are scarce. I find some American saws locally, but I've only found one British saw here. This particular saw came from ebay. What's nice is that now that I've been doing this awhile, the word has gotten out and people are starting to bring saws to me. Most of these are junkers, but once in awhile there's a gem.

Here's my current lineup. I have 6 saws closing on ebay tonight. They are waiting in their boxes for final packaging and shipping. My ebay name is the same as my LJ name if you want to follow along.


----------



## lateralus819

Any other backsaws for sale bob?


----------



## summerfi

Sorry, Lat, not at this time.


----------



## Brit

Wow Erik - That thing doesn't hang about does it. I wasn't expecting it to be that fast for some reason. What are the results like? Consistent? Can you vary the amount of set it applies?

Bob - Nice saws all dressed up in their Sunday best. That's a lot of boxes you made there. You're going to have some happy punters. Just thought, are you familiar with the word punter? It is London slang for costumer.


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## summerfi

Never heard that term, Andy, except in reference to American football. I learn something new every day on this forum.


----------



## terryR

Nice line up, Bob! I like the wooden teeth protectors…are the rake and fleam recorded there? Have I bought a No. 12 from you from eBay?  It's a sweet user…gotta look up who the seller was!

London slang for a what?


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## summerfi

No, Terry, the No. 12's pictured above are the first I've sold. I haven't been writing anything on the guards, but I'll write something special on yours.


----------



## Wally331

Hey everyone, just checking to tell you that I am indeed still alive. Don I'll have your saws shipped out tomorrow or Tuesday. Grfrazee I've got your saw about half started, and here is Buckeyes saw which has a slightly smaller then normal handle.









And finally here is the saw from the saw swap sent from Greg Mathieson. Absolutely beautiful and excellently made. She fits right in with the rest of my users.









We won the second round of playoffs against Middleton two nights ago which has kept me pretty preoccupied and out of the shop. 1 of 8 teams left right now and Kimberly is next. 3 more games to go.









Bob that pile of saws looks sweet, I hope you get a fair price for them. For my wooden protectors I find that a thin kerf blade on my tablesaw cuts a good kerf for handsaws.


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## donwilwol

> - Wally331


I think we know what's been keeping Wally busy. Football, yep, I'll buy that!


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## summerfi

That's a mighty big grin on his face too. ;-)


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## ErikF

I haven't gotten deep enough into the setup to find out if it does a good job, in the video it isn't striking every tooth because I hadn't yet tightened the spring for the arm piece. The hammer and anvil are in good shape so I think it will work well once properly setup. One issue, the feed pawl the feeds from right to left is a little off on it's alignment but I'm hoping I can make some adjustments or make a new one. I can also feed the plate manually, line up the tooth where the hammer falls and push down on the foot pedal, one swift blow happens instantly. Very cool piece! I'll post more once it's setup for regular use.


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## jmartel

> That s a mighty big grin on his face too. ;-)
> 
> - summerfi


Because we can't see where his hands are. But we know. We all know.


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## john2005

Holy cow Erik, that things like a sewing machine! Very cool!


----------



## Airframer

Which one of them is Kimberly? Do you have a new one for each playoff game?


----------



## RPhillips

Red, he probably has a til full. Lol


----------



## RPhillips

Warning, noon question incoming…

How do you tell if a saw is for rip or cross cut? Tooth angle?


----------



## summerfi

The short answer - yes.

The long answer - see this
http://www.blackburntools.com/articles/saw-tooth-geometry/index.html


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## DanKrager

Once you know what to look for it's pretty obvious…crosscut teeth look like little knives that cut a score down either side of the cut. Rip teeth look like a row of little chisels where the cutting action rakes the chips out like a plane blade. My mentor impressed me with this trick…he took a sewing needle and slide it all the way down the length of the crosscut saw. It rode the groove like a bobsled. Couldn't do that with a rip saw.
DanK


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## RPhillips

Thanks.


----------



## terryR

Good Grief…yesterday I took a close look at the file I had been using to damage the existing teeth on a vintage saw plate. The maker's mark has been scratched off already, but the file tapers to the pointy end while starting at THREE different spots along the file's length! Does that even make sense? Maybe I bent it?

Dunno…tossed it.

Then shaped a new magic wand for myself from a sick piece of East Indian Rosewood. Been listening a lil to the wife's movies, and she's on a Harry Potter kick, so I learned wands were supposed to be filled with magic! So, I drilled the butt end of this one, and filled it with Buffalo hair, pieces of Wolf hide, and 15,000 year old Mammoth Ivory chips…then a rod of Micarta to hold it all inside…










...the Micarta pin is barely visible.

Then, a NEW, straight Simmonds file…and I feel better already! 

Now, to schedule laser surgery on me eyes, or buy some NOS from eBay!!!


----------



## waho6o9

http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/sellersP/reToothSaw/reToothSaw-01.asp

Great Peter Sellers article on saw sharpening ^


----------



## summerfi

With all that magic, Terry, all you'll have to do is get that file near a saw blade and it will sharpen itself. That's a beautiful handle.


----------



## JayT

> http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/sellersP/reToothSaw/reToothSaw-01.asp
> 
> Great Peter Sellers article on saw sharpening ^
> 
> - waho6o9


Wait a minute, when did Peter Sellers come back from the dead? He was a pretty good actor, but didn't realize he did woodworking, too. Must've picked that up in the afterlife. :-0


----------



## RPhillips

> http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/sellersP/reToothSaw/reToothSaw-01.asp
> 
> Great Peter Sellers article on saw sharpening ^
> 
> - waho6o9
> 
> Wait a minute, when did Peter Sellers come back from the dead? He was a pretty good actor, but didn t realize he did woodworking, too. Must ve picked that up in the afterlife. :-0
> 
> - JayT


LAWLz


----------



## Brit

Nice handle Terry.


----------



## RPhillips

Padouk tote… Thoughts?


----------



## summerfi

Padouk makes a nice tote, Rob. Wall331 has made a bunch of them and they're beautiful. Be sure to use wood that is quarter sawn (vertical grain).


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Yep Rob. I have 3 padauk totes Wally has made for me. It doesn't stay bright orange like after it's sanded, but that's a good thing imo. Mellows out to a nice amber. 








-


----------



## RPhillips

Nice! I'll have to check the grain. So guess that's pretty important.. huh lol Glad you mentioned that.

Any tools that would make my life easier with shaping the tote? Thinking about a curved rasp…


----------



## BigRedKnothead

hehehe. Ya I have the gramercy handle makers rasp. It's a sweet tool. Course, as always, good tools ain't cheap.










http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/item/GT-SHRASP.XX


----------



## RPhillips

already scoped that one out Red. Planning to pick one up.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Cool. One of those is better than 3 crappy chinese files or rasps….think of it that way

After that I go to 180 grit PSA sandpaper. The back sticks to your hand, and you and really sand the contours nicely.


----------



## Mosquito

That's exactly the approach I take too, Red lol. I have a roll of PSA 180 grit that I use. Sometimes I use it and just fold it over and stick it to itself, and get a more sturdy piece of double sided sand paper too


----------



## RPhillips

Nice info, I'll check into picking up some PSA 180. Thanks

I just checked the wood that I have, not quarter sewn. I would really like to use this piece of 4/4 Walnut that my dad gave (board is at least 40 years old) me for the tote on the saw I'm making him for Christmas. Is it critical that it's quarter sewn? I'll pick up something else that's quarter sewn for the other two that I"m making, but really want to do his with that particular walnut board.


----------



## RPhillips

3M Red Abrasive PSA 180 grit

^this?


----------



## summerfi

Rob, for your Dad's saw, considering the sentimental value of the walnut, I would go ahead and use it. The reason for quarter sawn is that it is more stable. Flat sawn wood is subject to cupping, and if a saw handle cups, it could either break the handle or distort the saw blade. Wider flat sawn boards often begin to approach quarter sawn on the edges as the growth rings curve. If your walnut board is like that, then crowd the handle pattern as close to the edge of the board as possible.


----------



## Brit

I'd say go ahead an use it Rob. If it is 40 years old, it should be fine.

Quarter sawn is the ideal, but not all wood that is used for saw handles needs to be quarter sawn in my opinion, especially some of the exotics. I'm going to use some African ebony for my saws when I get around to making them and that isn't quarter sawn. I've had the wood for a number of months now and it hasn't moved at all.


----------



## upchuck

> hehehe. Ya I have the gramercy handle makers rasp. It s a sweet tool. Course, as always, good tools ain t cheap.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/item/GT-SHRASP.XX
> 
> - BigRedKnothead


I agree that the Gramercy Tools Hand Cut Saw Handle Makers Rasp sure looks sweet. But the $50 price tag gave me the vapors. I took a $5.00 flea market rasp and tried to duplicate their fine tool. On a scale of 1 to 10 I'd give myself a solid 2. I started with a rasp that was too big (10"), too wide (I"), and way too coarse. I heated it up to cherry red and stuck the tip of the rasp in between a couple of bricks in a sidewalk and added too much bend in the first 3" of tool. It is useless for saw handles and I haven't found any use for it for other things yet either. I may be being too kind to score myself with a 2.

chuck


----------



## summerfi

I made a bunch of these domed saw nuts (aka cone nuts) by hand today for a couple saws I'm working on. My life would be easier with a small metal lathe.


----------



## Duckster

How many points per inch did you put on your backsaws?


----------



## ErikF

Bob, be careful. I once thought "get a small metal lathe, it will be nice for turning saw parts" and now I have the sickness. This past spring I purchased myself a 7X10 harbor freight mini lathe, I now have these 5 lathes…don't ask why.


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## summerfi

I don't envy your upcoming move, Erik. Gosh, with that machinery you could be building ships.


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## ToddJB

Bob, great work. They look awesome.

Erik, on your move to Michigan you can feel free to drop anyone of those off in Denver - should really help with gas on that last leg.


----------



## ErikF

Luckily Uncle Sam has agreed to move everything (at least up to 9000lbs of it) free of charge, how is that for a good deal? A ship would be cool but I'm hoping for a lot of tools and repair parts…or maybe boat anchors.


----------



## ErikF

> Bob, great work. They look awesome.
> 
> Erik, on your move to Michigan you can feel free to drop anyone of those off in Denver - should really help with gas on that last leg.
> 
> - ToddJB


Haha, it would probably be the reality of it if I attempted to pull them through the rockies. I could save on gas and load up on legal marijuana


----------



## BigRedKnothead

> 3M Red Abrasive PSA 180 grit
> 
> ^this?
> 
> - RPhillips


Ya, any good brand like that. I'm a big fan of the mirka stuff. It sticks nicely to cork sanding blocks….or your hand for curved stuff.


----------



## RPhillips

Thanks. Heard good things aboug Mirka.

I found an assorted box of Kingsplor, thinking about giving that a try. Like < $20 for 5lb box of assorted grits.


----------



## Brit

We're unworthy Bob. They look amazing! Is it just me or would anyone else like to see how Bob made those? How about a blog Bob?


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## donwilwol

> We re unworthy Bob. They look amazing! Is it just me or would anyone else like to see how Bob made those? How about a blog Bob?
> 
> - Brit


+2


----------



## terryR

Erik, when I talk about lathe addiction, I usually refer to USING the thing…not collecting as many as you can fit on the property! LOL. How much for the Logan in photo 3?  Got my eyes on a 10×30" Matthews…after we move!

+10 for a blog from Bob! Not sure I have the cahones to plop brass on my little lathe, but photos of a buddy doing it might change my mind!


----------



## summerfi

> Luckily Uncle Sam has agreed to move everything (at least up to 9000lbs of it) free of charge
> - ErikF


That would be about 2 of those big machines, right Erik?



> Is it just me or would anyone else like to see how Bob made those? How about a blog Bob?
> - Brit


It's a messy process, Andy. In terms Terry would relate to, it's kind of like butchering a hog with a pen knife. I'm not sure anyone wants to see that. ;-)

I will be doing a blog on making the handle those go on, so stay tuned for that.


----------



## Brit

Fair enough Bob, but at least tell us how you cut such perfect slots. Dremel?


----------



## summerfi

> Fair enough Bob, but at least tell us how you cut such perfect slots. Dremel?
> 
> - Brit


No, just a regular hacksaw in a little jig. The jig is basically just a shallow hole in a board, with a saw kerf through the middle. The only power tools used to make these was a drill press, cordless drill, and disk sander.


----------



## terryR

Nah, show us the down and dirty shop work! 

IF I had a $3,000 metal lathe I think I could figure it out…BUT how to pull off such gorgeous nuts with a hacksaw and drill press…now THAT'S worthy information IMO!

Gonna guess some threaded rod fits in the chuck of the drill press, and into the brass while you shape them with sandpaper on a block of wood? Another jig shapes them to the same angle? They look like a TON of man hours went into them, Bob. Very impressive…


----------



## summerfi

> They look like a TON of man hours went into them, Bob.
> - terryR


This is true. You're looking at a day's work there. Erik could whip those out in a few minutes, and better quality too.


----------



## terryR

^maybe, but you saved $2900 in the process…a decent pay for a handful of nuts.


----------



## ErikF

I'm also in on wanting to see how these are made, Bob. They look great and will look even better with one of your homemade handles, the cone shape is starting to grow on me. I know you have a good thing going with the hacksaw jig but look into a slitting saw or narrow width keyseat cutter on the drill press. You can slot multiple nuts in one pass and is repeatable.

Terry, I look forward to seeing what you start turning out once you get yourself a lathe! Have fun moving it once you make the purchase  a word of advise, get yourself a cherry picker if you don't have one already.


----------



## Airframer

Serious lathe envy here. Guess you won't need to fill the truck up with bags of concrete will ya Erik?

Well, I finally caved and followed the ginger giants advice by putting a handle makers rasp on order from TFWW. This will be my first real rasp so I am pretty stoked to get my hands on it.

On another slightly related note.. I have noticed that both of my Gramercy saws (the 9" dovetail and the 14" sash) have been getting stuck in the cut about an inch or so into the cut. I have barely used either of them and the sash saw has done this from the start so I am wondering if they left the factory with no set on them. Anyone else had that issue with them before?


----------



## chrisstef

In soft woods, hard woods, or both AF?


----------



## Airframer

Both. I have tried pine, cherry, walnut and oak with the same result each time. The cut starts easy enough and it cuts fine for a few strokes then gets stuck and is near impossible to get moving again with both saws.


----------



## chrisstef

Sounds like an issue with the set for sure. Can you add a little bit on your own buddy?


----------



## Airframer

That was going to be my next task. I have never set a saw before but WTH why not start on a $100 saw right?


----------



## summerfi

Eric, if you have a caliper or micrometer it would be interesting to measure your saw plate above the teeth and then measure at the teeth for comparison. It does sound like you have too little set. I'm surprised they would leave the factory that way.

These are my go to rasps for saw handle making. I have another 20 or so rasps, but these are the ones I reach for. I'd like to have a curved handle maker's rasp, but I don't (so far). These seem to do a satisfactory job for me though. The one at the bottom is not a rasp, but rather a thin knife-edge file for sharpening Japanese saws. I've just started using it, and I think it will be invaluable for working in the narrow crevices around the lamb's tongue.


----------



## ToddJB

Saw till is mostly finished. Thanks for all the advice gents. Now I need to get to cleaning these saws up, and then onto learning to sharpen.


----------



## RPhillips

Todd, nice looking Tills. I'll be logging these into the old memory bank for my upcoming french cleat wall system.


----------



## terryR

Todd, love your tills…reclaimed woods?

Man, do I need to build a saw till…got them laying on every flat surface in the shop. The drill press table, lil bandsaw, LN lives on the belt sander, 2 on the table saw, the disc sander's table, on shelves. What a shame! My excuse is lack of lumber! Most of my stash is exotic, and only 24" long, for spoons and artsy stuff.

All my long hardwood is still nailed to the barn. Hmmm…where's my cat's claw? I know some 8/4 oak that's gotta be air dried by now…

Erik, I have an engine crane in the shop. If THAT won't lift it, I cannot buy it! LOL! Besides, I introduced a 50 pound weight limit to my wife on all future purchases until we move!  Kinda sucks now, since I want a bigger air compressor!


----------



## lateralus819

Terry. Try resawing that stock into 1/2" Thickness and make some boxes for the saw. Better than letting em sit and potentially fall on the ground! 

I stach mine on top of my tool cabinet. I do have a holder on my moxon, but then it's exposed to the air. Don't take much room at all!


----------



## terryR

That's a nice case, Lat!

I've thought about a cabinet with multiple thin shelves…too much work, and in the way. Wall till for me…except I don't have walls to use at the moment. Just galvanized steel that curves…lots of challenges. Biggest challenge is just keeping the mower and tractor running! LOL


----------



## ToddJB

Thanks Rob and Terry. Terry, yeah reclaimed. Trash soft wood pallets and fencing. But plenty strong for this purpose.


----------



## DanKrager

Todd, I REALLY like your tills. That picture struck me as AWESOME. Great use of recycled timber. Ive got some nice boxes, but I'm still a little green.
DanK


----------



## ToddJB

Thanks, Dan


----------



## donwilwol

> Todd, I REALLY like your tills. That picture struck me as AWESOME. Great use of recycled timber. Ive got some nice boxes, but I m still a little green.
> DanK
> 
> - Dan Krager


+2 to this. They really came out nice.


----------



## Airframer

Finished up part of my kids Christmas present for this year today. It turned out better than I had hoped really.


----------



## RPhillips

AF, Nice little saw for the lil man! I had a wooden workbench when I was a kid. It had holes in it for "pegs" and I had with it some toddler sized tools that were just as cool as my old mans. Surprised that I can remember that, as I was really young at the time. Hope that your creations create a fond love for wood working as my father did for me.


----------



## ToddJB

AF if your son doesn't appreciate all of this just know that your are my role model.


----------



## Airframer

Thanks guys. Todd - if he doesn't appreciate it I can always sell them to Red.. they are about the right size for him I think ;-)


----------



## Mosquito

Got this one ready to rock tonight. I need to fix the horn and give it a quick sharpening and it's good to go. Got it from my Grandfather after he passed away this spring.


----------



## terryR

Sorry about your Grandfather passing, Mos, it happens to the best of us, huh?

Lovely No.7? One of my favs…you're blessed to have one related to you! 

FWIW, I stole a 2×5 about 6 feet long from the barn yesterday, while watering the pigs. Looks like white oak…goodness the nails they used around 1900 were serious nails! I think I may sink them in ER, and see if they can be reclaimed, too? It's not enough for a saw till, but there's another…


----------



## planepassion

Mos, sorry to hear about your grandpa. May you recall treasured memories of him every time you use his saw.

I have a No. 7 like that and LOVE it. It's beefy enough to tackle all your sawing chores while the handle and hang give you nimble control over the beast.


----------



## theoldfart

Mos, every time you use the saw you'll remember him. To my mind it's the best memorial to a craftsman. Wonderful saw.


----------



## Mosquito

Thanks guys. I don't recall my grandfather on that side being big into woodworking, though. I'll have to talk to my dad about it, but as long as I remember he wasn't. I will have to get a picture of a table he made for my grandma while he was deployed in Korea next time I'm at my parents' house (drafted 2 weeks after they got married… bummer!).


----------



## Brit

This gentleman's saw will make you laugh. 5tpi and in good working order apparently. )

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VINTAGE-WARD-PAYNE-SAW-/171536351166?pt=UK_Collectable_ToolsHasdware_RL&hash=item27f05cffbe


----------



## summerfi

Yep, made me laugh. I'd like to see that gentleman. He must be on the "course" side.

Andy, you need to buy that saw. Doesn't it just scream "fix me!"


----------



## richardwootton

Jeeze! It looked like sharks teeth on the little gents saw!


----------



## jmartel

> Andy, you need to buy that saw. Doesn t it just scream "fix me!"
> 
> - summerfi


By the time you fix it, it MIGHT get 1/2" cutting depth.


----------



## theoldfart

Anybody? CL


----------



## terryR

^yeah, OK, I'll take the lumber…

Kevin, can you deliver? Or can you let me camp in your back yard one night?

LOL


----------



## ErikF

I want the workbench.



> Anybody? CL
> 
> - theoldfart


----------



## bandit571

Have two regular saws IN the Tool Chest #2
Have four panel saws and a backsaw in Tool Chest #1
Have four upstairs, awaiting a photo shoot to put them on Fee-Bay
and, I do have a saw till, of sorts









Might have a few too many?


----------



## Mosquito

> I want the workbench.
> 
> - ErikF


That's what I was thinking too, that bench looks pretty sweet.


----------



## racerglen

A shop find, ten bux with a 3" C clamp thrown in.


















Of course the green stuff had to go along with the rust, but what a battle ! Must have been some tough lead based enamel from the 50s or 60s.








That's after 4 go rounds with paint stripper, scraper just dulled the gloss on the paint, sandpaper, even my drill press with a coarse flap wheel wasn't much good.









Still need a touch of alignment on the frame, but the handles oiled n' waxed and the pinned jr hacksaw blade it came with replaced with an actual fret saw blade


----------



## summerfi

That looks like an old one Glen. German made?


----------



## racerglen

Can't find any makers mark Bob, the only marks are on the individual parts of the frame and the blocks that hold the blade in.
They're a number 3 folowed by a "C" that's a tad stylized.


----------



## putty

Old Disston backsaw

I have some questions on an old backsaw, I thought I would come to where the experts are and maybe someone can help me.

I was looking at getting a bad axe dovetail saw, I got sticker shock and dug out this old disston.My dad used it in a wooden mitre box. He always told me it was his grandfathers, i'm thinking now that it may predate him. I got on the Dissiton institute today and I kind of dated it to 1840…I may be wrong.

Someone in the past crudely made a new handle, then someone must have broke the crudely made handle and filled it with plastic wood!!! Dad!!! then painted it with black latex paint…Dad!!!
So my question is should I put forth the effort to fix this up, get the teeth re ground, make a new handle or would I be better off getting that bad axe? also, any info on the model number, age or any info at all will be appreciated.

blade length is 14" hard to tell on the teeth 10-12 tpi









2 eagles, cast steel









no medallion and crude handle homemade?









split nuts with plastic wood and latex paint









slight bend, really not as bad as pic looks









so is there any hope for this relic, 
thanks for any info


----------



## donwilwol

fix it up!!


----------



## JayT

I'd think it's worth fixing up. You can make a new tote using a template from TGIAG. Sharpening can either be learned or outsourced-if you can find someone that sharpens handsaws, it usually is not that expensive.

The only real concern is what needs done to correct the wavy/bent plate. A lot of times for backsaws, it means the saw just needs re-tensioned, which is very easy to do as well. I'd start there. See if you can get the plate straightened out before spending the time and money on the rest. If so, then you would have a very good saw with family history for something like $40. Even if the plate needs a little more work than just tensioning, it's still easily salvageable.


----------



## putty

thanks Don and Jay,

I saw that Bad Axe has a sharpening service that seems pretty reasonable. I will contact them. I favorite the TGIAG site and will make a new tote. It will be a fun project.

if the bends don't come out with re-tensioning can they be hammered out? if not I guess I could always get a new sawplate and the rest of the saw…still some family history there.

I have saw vises, saw sets and files that were passed down to me also, it may be fun to learn sharpening!


----------



## putty

thanks Don and Jay,

I saw that Bad Axe has a sharpening service that seems pretty reasonable. I will contact them. I favorite the TGIAG site and will make a new tote. It will be a fun project.

if the bends don't come out with re-tensioning can they be hammered out? if not I guess I could always get a new sawplate and use the rest of the saw…still some family history there.

I have saw vises, saw sets and files that were passed down to me also, it may be fun to learn sharpening!


----------



## donwilwol

Putty, there are several guys here who also sharpen.


----------



## terryR

^And there are a few guys here who could probably throw a new or refurbished saw your way for about $75…forget about that Bad Axe until retirement! 

Speaking of sharpening…

I had a few moments to kill, so wasted some more steel this afternoon…results were much better now that I know how to set the silly file holder. 










Still, that Veritas holder doesn't want to lock down onto a single rake angle for me. I must be changing the angle as I violently force the file forward…gotta try to find a rhythm IMO. I even wore down the first 1/4" of my file's edge from over exertion, I guess?

Once I realized the Veritas was changing rake, I started over on the next few dozen teeth to the left. This time, I tried to ease up on the file, and constantly checked the Veritas…










A little better, I think? Lots of variables to control at once. The Force must be focused…and caffeine levels must be hightened!  More practice…

Is my plate sticking out of the vise too far? My file just wants to grab the steel or skate across it…hard to find the in between…


----------



## donwilwol

Terry, it sounds like you are using way to much pressure. Relax, and use just a slight downward pressure.


----------



## summerfi

Terry, that's a way big improvement on the first attempt. Props for that. It does sound like you may be using too much down pressure on your file. It takes some pressure, but not extreme. I don't have a fancy rake gauge like your Veritas; I just use a block of wood and it works very well. If the Veritas continues to be a problem, try the block method. I think you do have too much saw sticking out of your vise. I like about 3/8". That little thing on the end where you have the question mark, just file it off at the same angle as the next full tooth. I use a flat file for that. You're making impressive progress. Keep up the good work.


----------



## terryR

Thanks, guys! Maybe LESS caffeine? 

Bob, you know, this afternoon, the fleam guide on that fancy jig wouldn't stay put…and I'm not using it for rip…so I took it off! You may be right about just a block of wood, too. Maybe just freehand? You know I've done this before…just been 100 years.


----------



## donwilwol

> You know I ve done this before…just been 100 years.
> 
> - terryR


So it's not like riding a bike?


----------



## summerfi

*Putty *- Based on the maker's stamp on your saw and the fact it has 3 split nut screws and no medallion, I agree it is an 1840's Disston. That makes it a highly desirable and relatively valuable saw. It absolutely should be restored. I strongly recommend, though, that you restore it back to as close to original condition as possible. That includes a period correct handle rather than just a random handle template off a website. Disston saws of that period had handles very much like British saws. There are examples on the Disstonian Institute website.

The wavy saw plate is common on backsaws and is usually caused by uneven tension between the plate and the spine. The plate not being seated properly in the spine causes torsion that produces waves in the plate. The last thing you should do is start hammering on the plate to try to straighten it out. There are ways to fix this that are pretty simple once you understand the problem and solution, but it's too involved to explain here briefly. Google "straightening a backsaw plate" or something similar and you will likely find some good advice. If not, PM me and I'll try to help. If the plate cannot be straightened, however, then it's not too hard to make a new plate.

As Don said, there are people here who can sharpen your saw for you. There are also people here who could do a complete restoration for you if you are hesitant to take it on yourself. It would take some time to do it right, but this rare and potentially valuable saw deserves it. Once restored to excellent condition, your Disston would be worth at least as much as, and probably more than, a Bad Axe saw. If you decide to do a restoration yourself, don't hesitate to ask lots of questions here. We're glad to help.


----------



## ErikF

Terry- I second the block of wood method…zero moving parts allows for very little error! Looking good though, teeth don't have to be perfect to make good sawdust.



> thanks Don and Jay,
> 
> I saw that Bad Axe has a sharpening service that seems pretty reasonable. I will contact them. I favorite the TGIAG site and will make a new tote. It will be a fun project.
> 
> if the bends don t come out with re-tensioning can they be hammered out? if not I guess I could always get a new sawplate and the rest of the saw…still some family history there.
> 
> I have saw vises, saw sets and files that were passed down to me also, it may be fun to learn sharpening!
> 
> - putty


Putty- Send me a message if you're interested in a reasonable dovetail saw. I have a brand new one that has a little surface rust on the plate, I wiped it down with some WD-40 but I don't really have any plans for it.


----------



## lateralus819

Anyone know who makes the white handled tenon saw in this video?






It's a thing of beauty!


----------



## Wally331

I know two lawyers tools has made some holly handled saws, and perhaps ron bontz aswell? Bill anderson makes quite a bit of his own tools aswell so I wouldn't be surprised if he made it himself.


----------



## Mosquito

I know the "Rob Cosman" saws can have white handles, but I don't know that any of them are offered in closed tote though.


----------



## summerfi

*Putty *- Here is a link to a very good article on dating Disston backsaws. Comparing your saw's stamp to those in the article, it appears most like saws #2, 4, and 5. This seems to date your saw to 1842 - 1844. The article also has very good pictures of what the handle would have originally looked like on your saw. You could use one of these pictures as a template to make a new handle.


----------



## JayT

Good link, Bob.

putty, the reason I suggested TGIAG for templates is that they make them from scans of actual saw totes not just random designs. Doesn't appear that they have one for that age of Disston, however. Looks like there are a couple in there that could be printed out for scale and drilling template and then hand sketch in the differences based on those pics of the same era Disstons.


----------



## putty

thanks Bob, 
I agree with the time frame, I was also looking at the location of the screw holes…a couple from that era line up with my saw, although mine are a little closer together. I assume they were all hand drilled or punched and there could be a variance. The one with the replacement handle closely match my screw layout. The author noted that it is the same as the original though.

Jay,
Thanks again, very good idea. get one that is somewhat close then modify the pattern. Another good tidbit from that website is that all early handles were apple except the open one which was beech.


----------



## chrisstef

Double eagle disston with family lineage … Amazing!

Youre doin good Terry. Youll get comfortable soon. That first stroke between teeth can be tough. It always wants to grab, hop and skip so ease up on the pressure until your file is moving smoothly through the teeth. Then you can lean on it a little bit more. Im a bit heavy handed myself but youll find your groove soon.


----------



## ToddJB

Bob thanks for that link - helped me date the one I picked up a few months back.










It appears to have only been made for a year or so.


----------



## chrisstef

And an inch worm! Total saw porn.


----------



## summerfi

That's a nice saw Todd. One sons are hard to find.


----------



## ToddJB

Thanks guys. I picked it up for $35 at tool swap this summer. I need to make a split nut driver to tighten 'er up.


----------



## walden

I bought one of the Lee Valley saw file holders as well. I haven't had a problem with it moving, but you can set the rake angle to either side and I chose the wrong side! I have slowly been retoothing the hand saw and got about 3/4 done and realized I set the rake the wrong way so the teeth slant in the opposite direction! (Toward the back instead of the front.) User error with the new gauge. Does anyone know if I can just file the teeth down a bit and start filing the correct rake in there, or do I have to start over completely?


----------



## terryR

walden, that's exactly what I did! Had the Veritas jig set to 8 degrees of rake…the wrong way!

I just jointed 1/3 of the ugly teeth off, and started again. NOT sure what the correct answer is, though.  This whole plate I'm working is probably going to waste?

Wooden rake guide…check!










Set to 8 degrees or thereabouts…bollocks…it's too tall to get within 3" of the saw! Must modify size.

Oh yeah, the angle labelled should read 82 degrees…not 8!


----------



## summerfi

Terry, make your block 3/4" tall. A piece 3/4" x 1" x 2-1/2" is about right. It should be hardwood. On a crosscut saw, don't forget to flip your block around to the other side when you flip the saw. Put a mark on each side of your block which direction the saw handle should be so you don't use the wrong side. On my crosscut block I tape a line level to the top, but for rip it's not that critical as long as you hold the block consistently.


----------



## kiyoshigawa

Greetings Saw Gurus. I got these saws for free from a friend of a friend closing down their shop. Anything of value in the pile? I don't know my saws very well, aside from them all being straight and not rusted through.














































I really don't even know where to begin with these. I know how to sharpen them, and I can clean off the rust well enough, but beyond that I don't know what I've got.

The back saw says Warranted Superior on it, and looks like it came from a miter saw setup of some kind, but they didn't have the miter box that went with it. Can you build a miter box yourself for it?

The little saw has no markings or anything on it, and very thin steel. It will definitely need some sharpening if I plan to use it for anything. It almost feels like a child's toy.

The Stanley Handyman doesn't look like anything special. Don't those have hardened tips? Can you sharpen them? How can I find out without destroying a file testing it?

Is the Nicholson anything special? I figure it's straight, and if I can sharpen the teeth it should work fine.


----------



## terryR

I'm on it, Bob, Those dimensions sound like all the directions I read on the www! LOL.

Thanks for all the help, BTW!

I took that photo before labeling with 'tote' and 'up' on both sides.

I'm pretty sure I was stroking with too much downward force…that's probably what cause the expensive jig to turn? Still, it could use a positive lock on an angle as important as rake, IMO. Hey, where's August?


----------



## summerfi

Tim, those saws are nothing that would get a collector excited, but for general shop use they should work OK. I don't think they're recent enough to have hardened teeth, but the only way to know is try a file on them. You'll know right away. You can make a miter box that works well enough out of hardwood. I used a home made one for years.


----------



## bandit571

Will try to post a few saws on FeeBay…..need a few pointers on camera work for these saws.

Backgrounds?
Lighting?
Distance from the saw?

Two D-8s, three WS, and maybe a panel saws or two. (20+0 saws in the shop IS a bit much)


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## chrisstef

Id say a stark white background or a nicely figured chunk of lumber behind the saw bandit. Use as much light as you can get without too many glares.

As to what kind of pics - each side of the handle, one medallion pic, each side of the plate, the etch (if applicable), tooth line, teeth themselves. That's my suggestion anyway.

Good luck and get your bandito on.


----------



## summerfi

Bandit - I use some old weathered boards for a background. Some of the high end ebay sellers put their saws in front of an old tool box, saw till, etc. You want the buyer to look at the saw and not be distracted by the background. I've found that shaded natural light is best. Bright sunlight or camera flash don't work so well. Florescent lights tend to make things look blue, but you can edit that out. I take some shots showing the whole saw and then some macro shots showing details like handle, etch, etc. Pictures from different angles are nice too. I've sold a bunch of saws on ebay now, and I've learned that good pictures make a huge difference in getting a good price vs. getting a so-so price. I'm constantly amazed at what people are willing to pay for a nice saw that shows well. Also make sure you have a good description that points out the saw's good and not so good features. I think people pick up on whether a seller is being honest and thorough.


----------



## bandit571

Will try these suggestions later today, keep an eye out….

And thank you for the tips!


----------



## kiyoshigawa

Thanks for the head's up, Bob. I'll take a file to them tonight and hope for the best.


----------



## theoldfart

Just noticed this http://lumberjocks.com/projects/107961


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## terryR

...curious…

what would a Foley re-toother do to a Borg saw? Just cut new triangles?

i've got one down by the barn if anyone wants it for practice!


----------



## Brit

What the hell is a Borg saw?


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## terryR

^ Check out TOF's link above…

Borg=Big Orange Store ( Home Depot )


----------



## DanKrager

BORG=Big Orange Retail Giant (Home Depot, a U.S. chain), AKA Big Ole' Retail Giant to be more generic to include all big box hardware stores. That may be local slang, but it works here.
DanK


----------



## GMatheson

Possibly a reference to Star Trek's BORG who assimilate everyone.


----------



## Brit

Thanks for the explanation guys. I thought it must be Home Depot, etc, but I couldn't think what the letters stood for.


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## terryR

Yeah, the borg has certainly run everyone else out of business here in our county…hard to compete with potting soil AND picture hangers in the same store! 

Shame since we used to have a local hardware store 6 miles away run by an old farmer who could show ya how to use all the tools he had for sale. When I make a trip to the Borg, I'm usually the oldest guy in the place at 49!

But, I'm OK with it…time will reset the bad changes in our failing country. And a civil war…ooops…I didn't mean for that to slip out!


----------



## theoldfart

^ homeland security heard that buddy, better watch out!

Agree with the sentiment, hardware stores should have creaky wood floors and the proprietors should be older than you and know way more. That leaves out most of the American retailers.


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## DocBailey

" ... hardware stores should have creaky wood floors and the proprietors should be older than you and know way more."

Could not agree more!


----------



## Airframer

Funny you guys mention the old hardware stores… I will be exiting the service this year and my plan is to open an old "Hardware" store with old tools/parts and other assorted crap for sale. It will probably fail miserably but I'm going to give it a go and have fun while I can. I envision a small store crammed with tools and a counter with a couple seats to chill at and shoot the breeze over some Folgers or something… pipe dreams and all that.


----------



## theoldfart

^ Eric, we are possibly moving to NorCal in the next couple of years. I will be a regular customer in spite of the drive, BUT, don't do folgers. Strong black dark roast only, I'll bring my own ;-)


----------



## summerfi

Good luck Eric. I hope it's a huge success.


----------



## racerglen

Here's to Eric's Hardware n' Things being a new age store for real people and running on past his other retirement/best before date.
All in favour say "AYE !"


----------



## donwilwol

AYE to that!


----------



## theoldfart

Aye and Aye


----------



## Airframer

Thanks guys! I was actually worried about sharing my idea. I think it is a good idea but that doesn't mean it actually is lol. Who knows…. maybe I could even stock some new Erik or Wally saws while I was at it!


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## Mosquito

Along the same vein, I stopped by a Tru-Value hardware store today, and there was a guy in there enjoying a cup of coffee and just chatting with one of the employees. Didn't think anything of it at first, but now that you mention the topic, that's pretty cool


----------



## terryR

Yeah, sounds like a manly place to hang out…coffee should be quality, too! LOL.

As soon as I enter the Borg, I focus on my list, and get the heck out!

Would give anything to see a hardware store that sold locally-made tools. I don't want the $22 chinese hammer…I'll take the $32 Vaughn, please. And the Husky screwdrivers, nah, how about one of dirty ones that used to ride in a Sherman tank? And a plastic level…ummm…you're serious?


----------



## DocBailey

I took the liberty of "fixing" the signage


----------



## theoldfart

^ +1, way to go Doc!


----------



## Brit

Nice one Doc. My local hardware shop does a good trade, even though there are five BORGs (as you guys call them) within a 1 mile radius.


----------



## theoldfart

Looks like a proper hardware store, i especially like the ironmongery.


----------



## DanKrager

I almost cried when our big old hardware store was turned into an antique mall years ago in my hometown. It had all the earmarks of AF's ideal, creaky wood floors, endless aisles filled way beyond reach with inventory, some of which was NIB from early 1900's. Assortments of nuts and bolts were laid out on a huge table with glass dividers, along with every sort of misc. hardware that could be used or attached. Everything a farmer might want was there in multiples. It was a highlight of my young life every time Dad "had" to go there for something. (they were pricey compared to Gambles, the BORG (actually BGRG) of yesteryear)
AF I wish you well. Love the idea…just don't get sucked into Steam Punk.
DanK


----------



## theoldfart

Steam Punk=Satan, destroyer of industrial art. Bad JuJu.


----------



## jmartel

Eric, if there's any place in the US that you can actually get away with that, it's the PNW. Lots of disdain against the national chains up here.

Though you might do better in Portland where that hatred towards the national chains is a bit deeper.


----------



## ksSlim

Check this one out.
http://www.theoldhardwarestore.com/
in the middle of Kansas.
Might be for sale due to retirement.
Lots of "New Old Stock" even a few saw bolts.


----------



## ErikF

Eric- there is still a general store that doubles as a hardware store in the village I am from back in Michigan. There is stuff hanging all over the place and multiple old fellas that hang around the coffee pot. It has been the place to go for the last 30 years if you're in need of a quick part, their slogan "If we don't have it then you don't need it". They are always busy and show no signs of slowing down.

What they have going is for the is the location and the old feel of the place. It's a bit of a drive to go anywhere else and it's nice to stop by for a conversation with the owner or one of the other long time employees. Good luck and let me know if you want a saw or two to hang up!


----------



## Mosquito

Here's what you do… hire Don W for plane restorations, Bob and Andy for saw restorations, Wally and Erik for new saw manufacturing, and go to town! lol


----------



## richardwootton

> Here s what you do… hire Don W for plane restorations, Bob and Andy for saw restorations, Wally and Erik for new saw manufacturing, and go to town! lol
> 
> - Mosquito


Then just rely on the rest of us to keep you in business!


----------



## ErikF

It's too bad we aren't all neighbors.


----------



## ToddJB

There is an amazing place in Denver called Charlie's 2nd hand tools. It's 3rd generation owned and packed wall to wall with everything from automotive tools to hand planes. The place is a total disaster at first look, but if you go in there enough you start to get a feel for things. The two old guys that run it are bother-in-laws, and are always up for a conversation about whatever. Cool place, but I don't think the kids want to take over when they give it up.


----------



## theoldfart

^ sounds like Liberty Tool


----------



## richardwootton

Todd, you should offer to take it over when they decide to retire. When I lived in Denver I had no idea this place existed.


----------



## john2005

I'd be all about checking out Airframers Hardware Store. Looks like a pletty nice place from the pictures.


----------



## jmartel

I wonder if he will specialize in miniature workbenches and tools? Sized appropriately for Red?


----------



## RPhillips

> I wonder if he will specialize in miniature workbenches and tools? Sized appropriately for Red?
> 
> - jmartel


lol


----------



## terryR

Todd, thanks for the heads up on Charlie's place…will get a visit from me regularly!

Erik, can I go ahead and request to be on your mailing list for a catalouge? I'll certainly do my part to keep you in business!!! I need domed split nuts, NOS replacement parts for Stanley and Sargent planes, pieces of dry Applewood large enough for saw totes, quality saw files, odd-ball tap to fit Stanley's chosen thread pitch, sick chunks of figured wood, NOS nails…

And, I'm pretty sure I'll keep coming back for more! LOL!


----------



## ToddJB

Terry, yeah, it's a fun place to go just to poke around. I try to buy something, even if it's small, every time I'm in there, because even though the place is so novel, to me at least, I'm sure paying the bills is something those guys worry about daily. Their prices are interesting too. For the most part they are on par for item you are buying as the BORG, but you'll be buying the Made in the USA version of the item. You just have to make sure it wasn't rode too hard and put up wet. And a good conversation about politics, tools, community, or whatever, typically gets you a bit of discount!


----------



## Brit

Sounds to me like Eric will need a good online presence in addition to a bricks and mortar store. He could call it *Ye-Olde-Hardware-Store.com*. Now if he could figure out a way for online shoppers to consume a good cup of virtual coffee while browsing, he'd be onto a winner.


----------



## ToddJB

> Now if he could figure out a way for online shoppers to consume a good cup of virtual coffee while browsing, he d be onto a winner.
> 
> - Brit


Virtual Coffee might be hard, but a live chat room on the side bar would be doable.


----------



## Mosquito

^ That would be a terrible idea for those of us that aren't retired lol


----------



## ToddJB

hahaha


----------



## ErikF

Terry- I'll put all your requests on my list of products I need to offer. I'll let you know when I get a bandsaw mill up and running…I plan to put a hurting on a couple old apple trunks with it. I'll also need to setup a foundry to cast your plane parts. Glad my list keeps getting bigger! Online coffee…might be able to make that with a 3D printer


----------



## summerfi

You can read about my latest saw handle making adventure on my blog: Making A Saw Handle -- Or Two.


----------



## ErikF

Bob, beautiful stuff right there!


----------



## Mosquito

Retoothed an old backsaw last night (I think it was the first backsaw I bought 2 years ago). Not perfect, but certainly better than my first one was…

16TPI Rip, as it will be my dovetail saw for now.


----------



## terryR

Very impressive workmanship, Bob! Those totes are stunning.

Mos, you're making my eyes hurt trying to see 16tpi…nice job, I think!


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

I believe this saw was posted aleady, but I'm using it tonight and WOW. Crown to the toothline, it's an E.C. Atkins, and factory sharp. And I mean Sharp. What a saw.










True Sharp is a joy in a hand saw.


----------



## ErikF

Making the old Logan lathe pay her dues this evening.


----------



## Brit

Bob - Those totes are as good as any I've seen. Superb work!

Mos - It does take a few attempts to develop the feel that you need for consistency, but it looks like you are well on the way.

Smitty - Agreed. There's nothing like using a well tuned hand tool.

Erik - Nice bolts. Amazing to think that a few years ago, people would be scratching around to find good saw bolts and now there are quite a few people making them for sale.


----------



## terryR

Great looking show, ErikF. The shiny brass and copper get me every time! +1to Andy's comment on how rich this forum with talent!!!

Very nice Atkins, Smitty! I noticed the kerf the rip saw is following…how do you guys make that groove? Marking gauge? Cutting gauge?


----------



## Brit

I think that might be a shadow or a heavy pencil mark Terry. Normally you would only make a knife wall for a crosscut, not a rip cut, but I'm sure Smitty will explain.

To make a knife wall, I used to use a marking knife and a combination square referenced off of my reference face/edge, then chisel out a little wedge all the way around the cut by gently chiseling towards the score mark left by the marking knife. Then I saw a video of a craftsman making sash windows by hand and noticed how he held and used the chisel to remove the little wedge. Since then, I do it like the man in the video as it knocks a few seconds off the time. I recommend watching the whole video as I know you'll enjoy it, but you see how he holds chisel and draws it towards him at about the 3:30 mark.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

I cut half, the flipped the piece over to finish. The completed cut was still tight in the vice, holding the saw for the picture. Saw tracked within a 1/16" of the line, no problem. Love it.


----------



## Brit

Thanks for clearing that up Smitty. I knew there was method in you madness. )


----------



## RPhillips

Terry, could always make one of these…


----------



## Mosquito

That is on my list of things to do… I want to make one soon, maybe this winter


----------



## richardwootton

Rob, is that a stair saw or a kerf saw with a fence of some sort? I've been thinking about making a kerf plane for resawing by hand, but that looks like it could be really useful also.


----------



## Mosquito

kerfing plane with fence:


----------



## RPhillips

^^ Mos has it. But isn't a stair saw just about the same thing?


----------



## Mosquito

I think a kerfing plane is a stair saw with a fence. Similar to the way a Fillister plane is a rabbet plane with a fence


----------



## richardwootton

> ^^ Mos has it. But isn t a stair saw just about the same thing?
> 
> - RPhillips


That's kind of what I was thinking. It's like a stair saw with a fence.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Stair saws don't have bolts flush to their sides. They do have open totes and adjustable depth blades. I've not decided on the type above vs. making a copy of my stair saw and adding a fence. The latter would seem to be easier…

(I want a kerf saw, too.)


----------



## Airframer

You guys are awesome lol. All are welcome to stop by if and when I get "Eric's Hardware and Stuff" open lol. I do suspect that a large portion of the sales will take place online somewhere but I have to agree with JMart.. if it could work somewhere it would be in the PNW. Now if only I could find a reliable rust hunting spot I'd be set!

Nice saw Smitty! I need to make me one of those kerfing saws. Seems like a simple enough build.


----------



## DanKrager

AF, just had another random thought. 
"Now if only I could find a reliable rust hunting spot I'd be set!" Why not BECOME the most reliable rust hunting spot? As part of your marketing you could promote your store as THE place to sell rust. You maybe could find some inexpensive labor to restore the best ones, use the rest for parts if they don't sell in a reasonable time as is.

Having good leads and presence at estate and business sales throughout the U.S. would be a great network to have. I'm not a marketing guru, but I'll be there's expertise among the LJs that could suggest and help with setting up something like this.

DanK


----------



## terryR

Andy, thanks for that link, great video! Would give anything for a years' apprentiship under that guy…he knows how to use hand tools! Cannot imagine making a knife wall that quickly…will try it…

Actually, I have a vintage kerf saw…just haven't cleaned it up. I assume it's for marking lines near the board's edge since it has no moving fence? It has a rabbet about 3/4" wide for riding along the stock.

Jeez, Smitty, ripping within 1/16" of the line must be nice! I cannot do that on my bandsaw!!! 

Hmmm…kerfing plane? Could be as simple as a block of wood with a v-groove cutter…rods and a fence next…You guys are awesome!


----------



## bandit571

On a Chinese Wood working forum style of youtube videos, a GE HONG is shown making frame saws….in maybe two 30 minute vids.

He also uses a four cutter marking gauge. Sole of which is in the form of a semi-circle. You merely rock the gauge forward or back to access a preset cutter. No digging around for a second or third marking gauge.

I made an edge plane like the one Hong made. He also made an edge plane with a metal skate in the body. To get the rebate to house the skate, a gauge line was cut…deep. Then a WIDE chisel was pushed in from the waste side, until a deep wall was made. Then a edge plane like mine was used to make the rebate . A couple other narrow planes, shoulder planes maybe, to refine the rebate.

Frame saws? Think of a wall covered in them, like maybe 50 of them…..
Chisels? Another wall has a rack of over 100 of them, many being mortise chisels

Other than a power drill, and a small rinder, all else was done with just hand tools.


----------



## putty

Disston D115 Cleanup

Quite a few years ago I bought a bundle of saws at a farm auction, I had them in a box in storage. I recently dug out the box and pulled out a rusty D115 and gave it a cleanup. It is my first saw to redo, and I'm sure I could have done things better, but it is beautiful to me. Sorry I didn't get before pics.

I soaked the blade in evaporust and sanded with 300, 400 and 600. The front cleaned up nicely, the back still has quite a few pits. More sanding required?


















Faint etch, I tried to be careful around the etches


















I sanded down the handle and used wipe on poly then paste was. I learned a lesson here, I used a ROS sander on the flat areas, I lost some detail on the carving!!









The saw is 10 ppi and is still pretty sharp, I'm going to practice sharpening on some other junk saws then I will give this a sharpening

Thanks!! Putty


----------



## richardwootton

Looks good putty! And I wouldn't worry too much about the pitting on the back side of the plate. It won't effect performance.


----------



## summerfi

Nice job Putty. Not much you can do about the pitting, but as Richard said, it doesn't affect anything. As pitting and saws goes, it's not bad. For a first saw restore, you did very well. Those rosewood saw handles are hard to beat.


----------



## Slyy

Posting to get to the bottom, hehe! Hadn't checked in the saw thread in 103 days, ummmm 1100 posts later…..


----------



## putty

Thanks Bob and Richard,

Good…I wont worry about the pitting then!!!


----------



## terryR

Putty, that came out nice!

I have also diminshed a few wheat carvings on totes…but they can be deepened with a bit of sandpaper rolled around a small, pointy piece of hardwood…of course, that leaves re-finishing the tote.

But, maybe next time, before finishes? 

My wife sorta laughs, but from time to time, I make little pokey sticks from exotic cut off's. I find them very useful for mixing epoxy, cleaning tight areas, sanding tiny areas, moving basket parts around while weaving…pointed on one end, and flattened on the other. I'll be happy to make a few for anyone!


----------



## Brit

I can see it now - terryspokeysticks.com. 100s of uses around the home. Surprise someone you love this Christmas. LOL.


----------



## RPhillips

Found this on Criagslist

Foley Automatic Handsaw Filer & Jointer


----------



## terryR

Andy, I've decided to call them 'Shop Sticks'...trying to get Lee Valley to carry them exclusively…LOL.

So…I ask the group, again…
What could that Foley re-toother do to hardened steel plates like a Borg saw? Just cut triangles, since the steel is too hard to sharpen?

Edit…have become curious as to what use a worn pruning saw, or drywall saw could be? Steel annealed and tempered softer? Re-sharpenend? i could be off on an unknown tangent.


----------



## summerfi

> What could that Foley re-toother do to hardened steel plates like a Borg saw? Just cut triangles, since the steel is too hard to sharpen?
> - terryR


Terry - the answer is, I don't know. It would either cut new teeth, or it would break the teeth off because they are too brittle. In either case, I don't think it would be good for the punch and die on the retoother. After a few saws like that they would need resharpening. It could even chip them. I won't be trying the experiment on my retoother.


----------



## Tim457

> So…I ask the group, again…
> What could that Foley re-toother do to hardened steel plates like a Borg saw? Just cut triangles, since the steel is too hard to sharpen?
> - terryR


Judging from projects people have made with BORG saws, I get the idea the whole plate isn't hardened, just the teeth are hardened with electrical induction heating. Also if the whole plate were hardened it wouldn't bend like spring steel because it would be brittle. Like Bob, I assume the harder teeth would not be good for the retoother. But if you ground off the hardened teeth after they were dull then I'm sure you'd have some not that great of spring steel left to work with. Or maybe it's decent spring steel, I'm not sure.


----------



## terryR

Thanks, guys. I sorta assumed it was a waste of time…didn't think it may damage the Foley!

Will just let them rust away and focus on my calves and cows and goats.  I have several Disston plates which are rotten where the hardware used to attach…will use them for scrapers and knife blades, and forget about tool-shaped objects for a while!


----------



## donwilwol

Check out Erik's latest article.


----------



## grfrazee

Finally made a home for my hand saws. Nothing special, just cobbled together out of leftover OSB and 3/4" oak plywood. I plan on adding a set of doors once I'm able to get to the hardware store and buy the right hinges.


----------



## DanKrager

Glenn, you'll need some left hinges too.  
DanK


----------



## Slyy

> ...you ll need some left hinges too.


He'll be here all night ladies and gentlemen, don't forget to tip your waitress.


----------



## Neptuno

Boy, aren't they all nice tools. I have a couple of restored Greaves, but the one I really reach for is my Gramercy; it is a modern saw, not a restored one, but it cuts like nothing else. I must confess, however, that I am more friendly with Japanese saws, for most of my hand work.

Pedro


----------



## ksSlim

Terry, I quit making those sharp pointy sticks when I discovered bamboo BBQ skewers.
$2 a bundle, cut off the end and re-point as necessary.


----------



## dbray45

Rob - Must be the month for Foley Saw Filers - Picked this up over the weekend-








The price was good, considering that the guy that had it didn't know how to take care of it and it sat is a barn for 2 years. Needs a handful of things and hopefully Foley still has them. Other than that, it works - once I figure out the ins and outs (no pun intended) of this thing.

It will sharpen most handsaws, I don't have the receiver for keyhole saws. It also does non-carbide circular saw blades but this is where some pares are missing and also for bandsaw blades, but I am looking into it.

I also picked up some wood - red oak planks-









and










18" - 20" wide, 6/4 - 8/4 thick. Not sure what I will make with them, but it is pretty lumber.


----------



## RPhillips

Nice! I wish I could pick up the one I seen, looks like it would be fun to tinker with.


----------



## dbray45

I have been "playing" with this one. There is a lot to it. Someone, in a previous post sent a saw to be sharpened and it came back a lot smaller. I can see why, in making this work, I reduced one of my saws about an inch or so.

Any little blink and you have to joint and redo the saw. I will probably kill another file or two figuring this out.


----------



## RPhillips

I can imagine that would be the case.

I really need to joint a few of my saws (if I sharpen them), what do you use to do it?


----------



## chrisstef

A 10"-12" mill file is what I use Rob. I made a little holder jammy for it ala Andy(Brit). Works awesome on my card scrapers too.


----------



## richardwootton

Check out this really sweet old Harvey Peace.
http://m.ebay.com/itm/321593758812?nav=SEARCH


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Here's an update on the saws from my inheritance blog. After posting, Bob Summerfield was very kind to offer to sharpen the saws for me….and sharpen he did! I wish I could capture the teeth in a pic. They're masterful.

Anyway, here's a before of the little Warranted Superior (Simmonds) crosscut panel saw that belonged to my great, great grandfather, and the D8 that belonged to my great grandfather. 









Here's the saws cleaned up with repaired horn. 








-









I didn't get too crazy cleaning them up. I still want them to look their age. They both have "708" marked on the handle.

It's pretty cool to have these saws in my till. They both cut like a champ. 








-


----------



## summerfi

Thanks for letting me be a part of restoring your inheritance, Red. Being heir to old tools is a privilege, and those saws are a treasure. May they serve you well the rest of your life, and then be passed on to your heirs. Do you know what the "708" means?


----------



## jmartel

Red,

It looks like you are going to need to make another saw till soon. That one looks full.


----------



## putty

Very nice Red,

It's a nice feeling to use a tool that belonged to a long lost relative. The Till looks nice. You need to back up with the camera so we can see how it looks on your French cleat system.

I also have sent a saw to Bob, He is doing a full restoration for me on a saw that I didn't want to mess up.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Jmart- yep, she's all full. Guess I can't buy any more saws!

Bpb- Thanks again. I don't know what the 708 means, but I'm gonna as my Uncle over lunch Friday. 
My middle daughter has already called "dibs" on the saws….and most of the rest of my tools


----------



## wormil

Speaking of inheritance, I picked up four saws that belonged to my dad, two are backsaws (miter box saws probably), two are Disston crosscut saws. I have pictures of the Disstons from when I disassembled and cleaned them but I don't know what I did with those pictures. They are nothing special though, one is from the 60's (probably) and the other has a plastic handle is probably 70's.

I'm thinking of refiling one of the backsaws to a rip tooth for cutting joinery and I'm not sure which one. The 12" saw is German steel, 9 or 10 tpi, aggressively set (too much). The 16" saw is 12 tpi and barely has any set. The 16" has a maker mark stamped into the blade but I can't read it. The 12" would be easier to handle, lighter weight; but the 16" has a finer tooth and cuts better as-is. File one to rip or keep both and save up for a dovetail saw? What advice do you guys have for me?



















12" is a Durall miter box saw from West Germany


----------



## ErikF

Red- that is a fine looking set of saws and I imagine the cut better than new if Bob sharpened them. Nice till, you seem to have it pretty full.

I picked up these three saws today while visiting a friends shop. He has a wall covered in handsaws so I convinced him I needed to take these ones home. I'll probably never restore any of them but they will get a nice home over my bench.


----------



## summerfi

Nice saws Erik. First one looks like a Groves, second one a Disston No. 7. What's the third one? You should restore them and give them a job.


----------



## donwilwol

I send Wally a box full of saws. He sent me back a few wonderfully restored. I got a chance to try them this morning. What a treat.



















From large to small, Disston, Jefferson, Disston, Jackson.


----------



## summerfi

Nice little family Don. Wally does such a nice job. It's great to see LJs helping each other out.

Happy Thanksgiving all.


----------



## terryR

Goodness, what a lovely show of hand saws guys! My kind of holiday treat!

I'm jealous of you guys that are related to your vintage tools! Just sayin'

Love the family shot, Don.

+1 to services from Wally, Bob, ErikF, and Stef! I've reached the point where I'll look for vintage restored by this group (or me) over new! Yep, even Bad Axe.


----------



## Brit

They are wonderful Don. Well done Wally.


----------



## summerfi

After many months of product development, TGIAG has finally started selling traditional folded brass saw backs. Prices seem reasonable. Having made a few myself, I don't think I could make them for that price if I counted my time worth anything. I expect it won't be long before there's a waiting list.

http://tgiag.com/sawbacks.html


----------



## Waterlog

Only been woodworking for about 9 years but have become a obsessive compulsive about it. Lumberjocks seems to be the best place to learn and communicate with comrades in timber. I have just started posting so am not sure on the techniques of using this site. However, I started a blog about a S Biggin & Sons backsaw I just acquired, was hoping I could get some feedback on it. http://lumberjocks.com/Waterlog/blog/43309
Thanks.


----------



## Mosquito

> After many months of product development, TGIAG has finally started selling traditional folded brass saw backs. Prices seem reasonable. Having made a few myself, I don t think I could make them for that price if I counted my time worth anything. I expect it won t be long before there s a waiting list.
> 
> http://tgiag.com/sawbacks.html
> 
> - summerfi


I saw that, and Dominic also sent me an e-mail right after they posted that. He'd kept me posted on it via e-mail, after I purchased the stuff for my panel saw, and asked about the saw backs. I'm excited.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

> Only been woodworking for about 9 years but have become a obsessive compulsive about it. Lumberjocks seems to be the best place to learn and communicate with comrades in timber. I have just started posting so am not sure on the techniques of using this site. However, I started a blog about a S Biggin & Sons backsaw I just acquired, was hoping I could get some feedback on it. http://lumberjocks.com/Waterlog/blog/43309
> Thanks.
> 
> - Waterlog


Hey, your a great addition to the site. I prefer the term "woodworking fanatic"....lol. But some would call me obsessive compulsive too.

But ya Waterlog, you'll find plenty company here. Lotta folks geakin out about woodworking. Just the way I like it.


----------



## ErikF

Just finished up this set of saws…they were a real pain. I had them 90 percent complete and ran test cuts with both, both saws pulled left in and it wasn't even a straight left. Checked both plates…cupped, both of them. I had to remove the plates with a torch, roll them, re-polish, then do the whole joint set and sharpening again. Lesson learned I guess. I like the combo of brass and Bocote though.


----------



## richardwootton

Those are gorgeous Erik!


----------



## summerfi

Beautiful saws Erik. Do you think the steel came that way from the factory, or did something else cause it to cup?


----------



## ToddJB

Shoot dang, Erik. Those were worth the extra effort.


----------



## ErikF

Thanks gents.

Bob- I think it was either a problem from the factory or may have developed on the shear. I'm sure you've seen that spring steel sometimes has a mind of it's own when cut or even sanded. These pieces just seemed for sensitive than I've ever used. Even polishing with 1200 grit sandpaper after re-rolling released some tension and the steel proceeded to cup, it was odd.


----------



## summerfi

Did you get this from a different supplier, or the same one you've been using?


----------



## RPhillips

> - ErikF


Awesome looking combo Erik!


----------



## donwilwol

Erik, you've found the spectrum between saw and art. Fantastic.


----------



## Slyy

Wonderful saws Erik, your work never disappoints.


----------



## jmartel

Erik, you need to find a way to etch your saw plates.


----------



## ErikF

Thanks Don and Sly, always nice getting positive feedback.

Bob- same stuff I always get from McMaster. I would say that's it's me getting used to a slip roller but some of the plates from the same 50" x 6" piece are still dead flat. My guess is there may be some tension that is released during the sanding of the plate. I've had similar things happen with both brass and copper backs. I'm going to change up my order of building in hopes of eliminating this issue.

Jmartel- I hear you there, I'm still looking into my options at this point. A massive press is still what I'm keeping my eye out for at a decent price. I think a stamped plate and bolt heads would be pretty cool and low cost after the initial investment. Plus I could smash random stuff with it.


----------



## ToddJB

Would that leave dents on the back side that would need flattened off?


----------



## ErikF

> Would that leave dents on the back side that would need flattened off?
> 
> - ToddJB


I'm not sure. I think if I have a fully hardened tool steel as the backing when the stamp comes down that it would eliminate any deformation of the plate itself. It won't need to be a deep stamp, just enough to catch the light…something that will never rub or sand off.


----------



## summerfi

Would be interesting to see how the stamp works out on modern saw plates. The vintage/antique plates were stamped before the saws were tempered and still relatively soft. Sometimes there would be saw makers who would make "generic" saws for various customers. Words like Cast Steel, Warranted, Sheffield, etc. would be stamped in the plate before tempering. Then, once an order of saws was bought, often by an ironmonger (hardware store), that company's name would be added to the plate, a process known as "bright struck". Since it was added after tempering, it would be much shallower and lighter than the other stamped words. These saws are easy to pick out due to the difference in stamping depth of the words.


----------



## jmartel

Erik,

You can always do something like this until you get a proper setup:






Just a random video I found.


----------



## realcowtown_eric

Marvelous….but nary a one of my backsaws show that degreee of pristinicity, gloss, or shine! But I'm not jealous, cause I likely paid 3 cents on the dollar for the few brass backed hand handsaws I and sharpemed them and rehabbed them to functionality to suit my needs.

But that's just me.

Eric


----------



## ErikF

Bob- That makes sense. It was really noticeable on the Groves I picked up a few days ago, the stamp on the plate is deep! Still very readable and no way to replicate one that deep on a fully hardened plate. If I can't get a decent stamp on the saw plate then I'll settle for the back and bolt heads. Who knows, maybe I'll find a good deal on an engraver or a CNC that will run a small carbide bit.

Jmartel- I actually used that method on a few saws I made a while back. It is very effective but hard to get a clean look, at least in my experience with it. I'm sure if I tried a different method it might have turned out better. Thanks for posting it though, I was blown away when I saw such a cheap and easy method to mark steel.


----------



## john2005

Erik, those are hot! Love the bocote


----------



## Gareth00

Maybe it's just me but I find it impossible to work on a saw with the handle in place, I have to remove it. There are nearly 9000 replies on this thread so to save me going through it all, can anyone enlighten me on removing the screws attaching the handle to the saw when there are no slots in the screw head, just a flat or dome head.


----------



## summerfi

Gareth00 - One method I've used is to epoxy a small hex head nut to the saw nut. When dry, turn the hex nut and the saw nut should come off with it. Then, just apply heat to separate the two nuts again.


----------



## chrisstef

Anybody got any information in regard to when they stopped using peened rivets to affix saw handles? Ive got a hunch this saw im waiting for delivery of was made sometime in the 1820's but im not sure if that date lines up with the handle being riveted.


----------



## summerfi

Stef, according to this chart, rivets were used from approximately 1680 to 1780. I've seen a lot of later handle replacements where the handle was attached with rivets though. It seemed to be common practice due to the scarcity of proper saw screws. What type of saw are you getting?


----------



## chrisstef

Its a W. Butcher, Bob. The handle looks original but damn its hard to tell from the pics. The back side looks like brass rivets over a steel washer. I should have on Tuesday.


----------



## summerfi

Love the brass back Stef. My guess is the handle isn't original. It looks a lot like a Holden style handle off a panel saw. William Butcher operated from 1821 - 1825, then for a few years joined forces with a man named Brown, then in 1833 formed a partnership with his brother Samuel Butcher. The company continued to operate (presumably under a succession of owners) until 1924. It appears they continued to stamp their saws W. Butcher until at least 1850, but some of their cast medallions bore the name W. & S. Butcher. The W. and W.& S names were sometimes mixed on the same saw. Info from Simon Barley's book.


----------



## chrisstef

Need that book. Im gonna have to pony up for it. As soon as she comes in Bob we'll have a good look at her. Much appreciated as always!


----------



## Gareth00

> Gareth00 - One method I ve used is to epoxy a small hex head nut to the saw nut. When dry, turn the hex nut and the saw nut should come off with it. Then, just apply heat to separate the two nuts again.
> 
> - summerfi


What a very practical solution. Thanks Bob.


----------



## RPhillips

> Gareth00 - One method I ve used is to epoxy a small hex head nut to the saw nut. When dry, turn the hex nut and the saw nut should come off with it. Then, just apply heat to separate the two nuts again.
> 
> - summerfi
> 
> What a very practical solution. Thanks Bob.
> 
> - Gareth00


Going to try that too… Thanks


----------



## ToddJB

Sneak peek of my $2.50 (plus tax) find










Don't be pissed, Stef.


----------



## summerfi

Wowie, another No. 9. Show us more Todd.


----------



## Brit

"Big wheels keep on turning…"


----------



## chrisstef

Id only get pissed if it had another 9 

Killer score todd.

"Carry me home to see my kin". Hell yea Andy. Perfect.


----------



## donwilwol

You guys are Rollin, Rollin on the river!


----------



## Brit

That would be "Big wheel (singular) keep on turning" Don. "Big wheels (plural) is the Lynyrd Skynyrd classic. Both great tunes though.


----------



## ToddJB

> Wowie, another No. 9. Show us more Todd.
> 
> - summerfi


Alas, she is not without battle scars.










Spent the weekend in the mountains. Stopped off at an antique shop. The guy had quite a few tools, but these items caught my eye. These saws were not with the rest of his tools, probably because they were in worse condition than most of his stuff, and at 1/10th of most of his prices. The little saw will be for the boy when he's old enough to wield such a Stallion. It's a WS. The Starrett Combo square was in a display case and was not quite as good of a steal.

Anywho. The 9.

Medallion shows a pat date of 1887










Missing horn and a couple of cracks in the handle/toat/tote










Nib and tip have seen better days (I'll need to reshape the front). Check out those teeth!










And the hidden X2










Here is where it currently stands after a short session of cleaning. Looks like will clean up great though. I'm pumped.


----------



## terryR

Huh? Lynyrd Skynyrd in Britain? 

Well, I guess we DID get The Beatles here. Fair is fair!

The weather in Sweet Alabama today more closely resembles The Ballad of Curtis Lowe…"On the day He lost His life, that's all he had to lose."

...sweet 9, Todd. I can probably make all the teeth resemble the ones you posted if needed.


----------



## chrisstef

She's a project for sure Todd but youll make her look great im sure. Solid save.


----------



## summerfi

Cool saw Todd. What is the blade length? My No. 9 is stamped X3. I'm guessing the 3 stands for 30". The medallion dates the saw to 1888-96. You may already know this, but the patent date on the medallion refers to the patent of the screw design. A Mr. Glover was the inventor. I know a guy in Alabama that can straighten those teeth out for you (just kidding Terry.)
Edit: Oops, Terry beat me to it.


----------



## summerfi

Speaking of the teeth, that's called a progressive filing. They progress from bad to worse. ;-)


----------



## ToddJB

I believe it started it's life as a 28". After its reworked it will live out the rest of it's life as a 26.


----------



## terryR

^progressive filing. 
LOL.


----------



## donwilwol

> That would be "Big wheel (singular) keep on turning" Don. "Big wheels (plural) is the Lynyrd Skynyrd classic. Both great tunes though.
> 
> - Brit


Sorry Andy, but now every time I use my leg vise I'm gonna have Tina Turner visions. Thanks for making that correlation for me.


----------



## RPhillips

Ike and Tina? lol I was thinking CCR… but OK, it's your fantasy! LOL


----------



## Mosquito

Swap saw doin' a little work tonight


----------



## Brit

> That would be "Big wheel (singular) keep on turning" Don. "Big wheels (plural) is the Lynyrd Skynyrd classic. Both great tunes though.
> 
> - Brit
> 
> Sorry Andy, but now every time I use my leg vise I m gonna have Tina Turner visions. Thanks for making that correlation for me.
> 
> - Don W


Sounds like there's gonna be some 'steamy windows' Don. LOL.


----------



## Slyy

^- Spammer?


----------



## Waterlog

"Well, I guess we DID get The Beatles here. Fair is fair!"

They did share the famous song. "I Want To Hold Your Handsaw".......sorry.


----------



## ToddJB

> This is so amazing..!!
> 
> - Nicholas A. Gray





> ^- Spammer?
> 
> - Slyy


Maybe, but the only thing he spammed was a complement, which is alright with me. Nicholas, are you real?


----------



## JayT

FYI, since it hasn't been formally announced yet, Mos & I are working on a 2015 LJ Calendar. Planning on something similar to last year, with incorporating pics from the swaps and those posted to the galootish threads during 2014. You know, the Handplanes of Your Workbench Saw Dreams Smackdown stuff. We might be hitting some of you up for higher res pics, if the ones pulled off the site aren't enough.

We will hopefully have something ready quite a bit earlier than last year's version. One of us will post an order link when it is done.


----------



## chrisstef

Thanks for the calendar efforts JayT & Mos.

Here's that W. Butcher saw I scored. Bob had it correctly pegged as a replacement handle. The top doesn't line up perfect with the spine and there are considerable gaps at the cheeks of the handle. Im not sure what ill do with it just yet but im leaning toward a handle replacement. I can vaguely see the old outline of the original handle but as far as what it originally looked like, ive got some research to do. Outside of the handle the plate is in great shape with no pitting and as straight as any ive seen. The teeth, well, they need some serious help but look to be at almost full depth.


----------



## ToddJB

Cool saw. If you make a replacement can the rivets be reused?


----------



## chrisstef

I don't know if I could reuse the rivets but im leaning toward probably not. I imagine id have to drill them out to remove the handle. From the info that Bob had given me this saw is most likely in the split nut era, maybe 20-30 years after riveted handles were the norm.


----------



## summerfi

Stef, see this thread for an idea of what your handle may have looked like.
http://lumberjocks.com/yrob/blog/25087


----------



## chrisstef

Jackpot. Thanks Bob. Looks like some new rasps will be in my future.


----------



## ksSlim

Anyone here a member of the MidWest tool collectors?
Just received the special annual publication. All of the articles about saws published since 1999.
Veritable history resource on saws of all types.


----------



## Mosquito

I'm a member of MWTCA, but haven't seen that, hmmm.


----------



## realcowtown_eric

also a MWTCA member. guess we be paying the dues…just got my notification

and here I was saving all the saw and other tool restorations for my dotage
Last two days I stole time from projects at hand to do this….


----------



## terryR

^nice handle!

Stef, I can save you money on rasps…send that W.Butcher to ME, and choose a wood species!  I'll send him back to ya for sharpening, if that rusty spot near the teeth can be used? Seriously. Hint:if you sharpen first, you may not see him again once he leaves your hands! 

My new play area for saws…lil Moxon with new hardware bolted in place, quickie bench on bench from ply, room for the bench hooks to stay permanently, and space for a few hand saws!










Ummm…yes…that's a panel saw on the bench hooks. I use it a lot to save the teeth on my Tyzack backsaw for joinery. Certainly NOT as nice as Red's full-on joinery bench, but a big improvement for my shop…and my bench seems larger now!


----------



## chrisstef

We might be able to work something out Terry. Id gladly swap your handle making abilities for my sharpening skills so you don't have to use panels saws at your bench hook


----------



## realcowtown_eric

love seeing these "round tuits"

I got quite a bunch of em.

Eric in Calgary


----------



## terryR

Sounds great, Stef! Just send a photo of which handle you like…the one Bob posted was a looker! You ready for 15 ppi cross-cut? I STILL cannot see teeth that small!!! 

I HAVE to add another positive review for *Wally331*...that panel saw is a spring steel George Bishop that Wally sharpened and I love it! Light weight, quick cuts, little tear out.


----------



## ErikF

Is anybody else using cutting fluid on their files when sharpening? I put some Tap Magic on my file earlier today and feel like I'm getting a fair amount more life out of it, maybe I'm just behind the curve on this? Just throwing it out there


----------



## chrisstef

Ive thought about it but never tried it Erik. I like the idea though.


----------



## summerfi

Never thought of it Erik, but sounds like a good tip that I'll have to try. Is there any problem with the filings sticking to the file?


----------



## bandit571

Tried it once, all the metal shavings stuck to the files….


----------



## ErikF

They stick to the file a bit but nothing major. Being a push stroke only most of the shaving run off the file and down the plate with the fluid. I'll wipe the file a couple times with a rag during the process and apply a little more fluid. I'm about to put the final sharpening on three saws and I've been using the same corner of the file for all three plates (punched plates)


----------



## donwilwol

> Tried it once, all the metal shavings stuck to the files….
> 
> - bandit571


Maybe try waxing the file first? The cutting fluid is really for the saw side right?


----------



## Wally331

I used to use a bit of three in one oil on my saw files. Most of the filings would get bunched up against the plate on the forward stroke. I'd say I'm in different on the topic but it has been awhile. There is benefit from the file lasting longer, but perhaps a slightly decreased vision or sight of the teeth, especially small crosscut teeth.


----------



## Brit

I just spit on mine. Does nothing for the cutting ability, but it makes me feel better. )


----------



## ErikF

> I just spit on mine. Does nothing for the cutting ability, but it makes me feel better. )
> 
> - Brit


Do you do this to all your tools as a sign of dominance?


----------



## Brit

I don't Erik, but now you've sown the idea in my head I might just start. I can see me now with saw in hand:

"Cut to the line!" (Andy spits on plate) "To the line I said!!!" (spits again) "What part of 'to the line' don't you understand?"


----------



## summerfi

Do you also have a whip, Andy?


----------



## ErikF

> I don t Erik, but now you ve sown the idea in my head I might just start. I can see me now with saw in hand:
> 
> "Cut to the line!" (Andy spits on plate) "To the line I said!!!" (spits again) "What part of to the line don t you understand?"
> 
> - Brit


This reminds me of an experience I had in Thailand during my early days of the Marine Corps- I'll spare the details.


----------



## chrisstef

No whips but ive heard hes got one hell of a pimp hand and keeps it strong.


----------



## richardwootton

> No whips but ive heard hes got one hell of a pimp hand and keeps it strong.
> 
> - chrisstef


BWAHAHAHA!!!


----------



## donwilwol

> Anyone here a member of the MidWest tool collectors?
> Just received the special annual publication. All of the articles about saws published since 1999.
> Veritable history resource on saws of all types.
> 
> - ksSlim


Excellent publication

The book is worth the due.


----------



## Brit

Think I'll give this one a miss - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ANTIQUE-SMALL-BRASSBACK-DOVETAIL-SAW-POSSIBLY-SORBY-CIRCA-1910-/390994180496?pt=UK_Collectable_ToolsHasdware_RL&hash=item5b0911b990


----------



## Brit

How much? - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Knew-Concepts-6-5-Coping-Saw-/251278480374?pt=UK_Collectable_ToolsHasdware_RL&hash=item3a815d53f6


----------



## summerfi

Andy, Andy, Andy…how could you pass on this "rare", "beautiful example" of an "antique" that has been so well "looked after" and is in such "good original condition"? With that aged beechwood handle with such patina, the brass back and split nuts screws…I'm sure you could do your usual miraculous restore…although this saw really doesn't need much.


----------



## summerfi

And they've already sold 6 at that price?


----------



## RPhillips

WOW, not sure which of those ebay finds is better… both are winners in my book.


----------



## Slyy

Hardly used, immaculately cared for indeed! I also knew those KC saws were a little expensive, didn't realize they were quite that high.


----------



## racerglen

Snork !


----------



## realcowtown_eric

MWTCA just sent me a 
tome listing all their saw publications for the last 15 years. 1/2" thic. pays to be a member.

Eric in Calgary


----------



## Tim457

Oh man, I totally should have signed up.


----------



## donwilwol

> Oh man, I totally should have signed up.
> 
> - Tim


Sign up….

http://mwtca.org/join-now.html


----------



## ksSlim

Well said Don, worth the membership fee for the "Gristmill".
Even better if you attend any of our meetings where there is always a tailgate swap gathering.


----------



## realcowtown_eric

Better'n the tool group of Canada, who seem to forget there's anything west of kitchener, not that far to the west of the Toronto….

Eric
far far to the west of Toronto


----------



## ErikF

Looks cool, Don. I'll be making the move once I'm back in the Midwest.

Side note- check out the combination of holly and copper.


----------



## richardwootton

> Looks cool, Don. I ll be making the move once I m back in the Midwest.
> 
> Side note- check out the combination of holly and copper.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - ErikF


Absolutely gorgeous Erik! By the way, here in a month or so we need to talk about a new saw. That is, after I've recovered from Christmas!


----------



## richardwootton

> Looks cool, Don. I ll be making the move once I m back in the Midwest.
> 
> Side note- check out the combination of holly and copper.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - ErikF


Absolutely gorgeous Erik! By the way, here in a month or so we need to talk about a new saw. That is, after I've recovered from Christmas!


----------



## ToddJB

Erik, that looks great. I've never seen a holly tote before. Is it the lighting or does it not have much visible grain?


----------



## putty

That Holly is beautiful Erik, it kind of looks like Ivory.


----------



## ErikF

Richard- I look forward to it. I'll be in a new shop next month and anxious to start popping out some saws!

Todd- The grain is almost impossible to see. I can hold the wood six inches from my face and not see any grain, it's neat stuff. Also - I made a couple long screws for my marking gauges 

Thanks putty! I was thinking the same thing about the ivory.


----------



## Slyy

That holly is great Erik!


----------



## jmartel

> Erik, that looks great. I ve never seen a holly tote before. Is it the lighting or does it not have much visible grain?
> 
> - ToddJB


Most holly does not have any visible grain. Part of the reason why it's used so much in marquetry, inlay banding, stringing, etc. Though, sometimes the Holly can be more of a yellow color, pretty similar to Maple without the grain.


----------



## ToddJB

Thanks for the info, boys.


----------



## jmartel

I ordered up some Holly veneer and was a bit disappointed that it ended up being a bit more yellow/cream than expected. Hence why I also bought some dyed white veneer, but sometimes it's a bit too bright white. Nothing in the middle, though.


----------



## wormil

> http://mwtca.org/join-now.html
> 
> - Don W


Okay, I signed up. Been meaning to do it for awhile and kept putting it off.



> Side note- check out the combination of holly and copper.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - ErikF


Sawgasm! Two of my favorite materials, holly and copper,-in a saw. I feel like Doctor Who in that episode with dinosaurs on a spaceship.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Roughest tool I've ever purchased.










$5, hanging on an exterior wall. Handle shape is unique.










Maker's mark on the spine / steel back is on the flip side from where it normally is, and is tough to make out.










Certainly looks like Taylor… anyone familiar with handle style (called a London Pattern?), or have a maker guess?


----------



## putty

What are you going to do with the old Gal Smitty. I think I saw that saw on ebay recently. I thought maybe someone had flattened the bottom of the handly, I didn't realize it was made that way.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Blade in evaporust now, handle lightly sanded and soaking, too.


----------



## ToddJB

Smitty, can you explain the thought behind putting it in a zip lock bag?


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Surrounds material, rotates, less liquid required, doesn't dry til I take it out, reuse liquid. And the most important reason: I think I saw Don Yoda do it once to a saw handle.


----------



## ToddJB

Straight Danish Oil? How long do you leave it?


----------



## chrisstef

An English saw for sure Smitty. There were a bunch of Taylor's that made saws …

http://backsaw.net/index.php?option=com_fabrik&view=table&tableid=2&calculations=0&fabriklayout=default&limitstart=850

Its gonna take some work but that's gonna be a cool saw when all said and done. I really like that pattern of handle.

How many holes are in the plate for the saw nuts?


----------



## summerfi

Smitty, can you see an initial in front of the word Taylor? Any other writing on the spine?


----------



## Mosquito

Maybe it's a lefty saw? lol


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Handle out of the ziploc as of this AM, drying on the bench. It was in there overnight.

Can't see an initial or anything yet, Bob. I understand it could be there. Maybe the ER will reveal; it's been immersed since 9PM last night, it'll get pulled this evening and we'll see where we are.

The spine is rough. Like it's hand-hammered (or abused, if that makes sense). It originally had split nuts, hope to replace them as such but I need to source them (first one of those I have). Small diameter, too. Oh, and there are only two, neither has a medallion-type space to fill.

Mos, that is the weirdest to me… never seen a marking on the left side of the spine. Saw could have been reversed, part of a very old reclamation I suppose? Or were some stamped that way, back when?


----------



## summerfi

See ErikF for the split nuts. It's possible the spine was reversed at some point. The one original screw is also reversed. My guess is the hammered look on the spine is simply pitting. I'm dealing with one like that currently.


----------



## chrisstef

I had a spine reversed on a moulson bros saw. Threw me for a loop at the time as well Smitty. Looking forward to the post evapo bath pics.


----------



## DocBailey

Bob - you may well be right on with your "hammered" guess, though I've had many old backsaws whose spines were clearly hammered upon-no doubt in an effort to drive the spine down onto the blade


----------



## Mosquito

Hmm… I've got a problem. My saw til is full, I've got 2 saws hanging on the wall already, and I've ordered parts to make another pair of saws… hmmm


----------



## summerfi

So Mos, what's the problem?


----------



## Mosquito

my tool chest isn't done yet lol


----------



## jmartel

Make another saw till?


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Saw action shot to make Bob smile. This is the base for a reclaimed dining table….but it feels more like timber framing at the moment.


----------



## summerfi

The saw till I made a year ago is now just a joke. I have saws everywhere, even some in the house. I've sold a bunch this year, but still they keep proliferating. I think I'm becoming the Don W of saws, except I don't take 'em in the bath with me yet. Anybody want to buy a saw, or 10?


----------



## summerfi

Hehe…love those saws Red. Need some more?


----------



## richardwootton

> Anybody want to buy a saw, or 10?
> 
> - summerfi


Hmmm… Whatcha got?


----------



## summerfi

That's the problem, Richard. I like all my saws and don't want to sell any. LOL


----------



## ToddJB

Cool looking hack saw. Plate would likely need replaced.


----------



## summerfi

I think someone used an h when they should have used a b, Todd. That's a regular Richardson backsaw, but some people don't really know what they're selling. I have one like it.


----------



## ToddJB

ha. I agree that that is exactly what happened. But when I tried to put quotes around "hack saw", indicating my understanding, it broke the HTML link.

Yours came out beautifully though. It looks like it has an etch too. I don't see many etches on backsaws. Were they just not as common, or is there something to them fading more than hand saws?


----------



## BigRedKnothead

> Hehe…love those saws Red. Need some more?
> 
> - summerfi


Then I'd have to build a new saw till! Mine's maxed out;-)


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop




----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Sheffield, German Steel


----------



## putty

Wow Smitty,

what a fast transformation, looks like a different saw


----------



## summerfi

Todd - The etch is for Chandler & Barber Hardware, Boston. Most backsaws don't have an etch, but occasionally you find one that does.










Smitty - The "Sheffield" stamp confirms your saw is British. The Taylor stamp confirms it was made by Taylor Brothers, one of the larger saw manufacturers in 19th and 20th century England. Many saw manufacturers used a variety of brand names. Taylor Brothers used at least 25 different names, including Taylor Brothers, J. Taylor & Son, Joseph Taylor, J&I Taylor, Taylor, and many that did not include the word Taylor. Taylor Brothers operated from 1837 to 1971, in a few different Sheffield locations that they referred to as Adelaide Works. Their long existence makes it a little hard to date your saw, but if I had to guess I would say last quarter of the 19th century. The London pattern handle came into usage about 1700, and many people take that as a sign of an early saw. However, it continued to be used, especially on second line saws, until about 1920. I have a few Taylor Brothers and J. Taylor & Son handsaws and they are among my favorites. Looking forward to seeing your saw back in action.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Pulled and reversed the blade, all is right with the world. Needs a nut job (easy Stef) and sharpening.

Bob, awesome input, thank you!


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

For Todd:



















The R.I.S.C. stamp on the handle stands for Rhode Island State College.


----------



## Slyy

Some nice saw action there Smitty, you got the new turned around pretty quick!

Took the time to sharpen my first two saws last night, both of my 5 1/2 Rip D-8 thumbholes. Anticipating getting some sawbenches in the works next weekend and start planning for more besides. Difference between a sharp and dull saw: unsurprisingly, a lot.

Now gotta re-watch Brits' sharpening video about 5 more times before I tackle my crosscuts!


----------



## donwilwol

Super nice job Smit. Its in the bag ;-)


----------



## chrisstef

You sure know how to rile me up Smitty. Im a lil hot and bothered over that transformation.


----------



## ToddJB

Man, that disstons a beauty too, Smitty


----------



## bandit571

New use for a Disston No. 7









Hey, at least I could saw a straight line with it….and the nib didn't get caught, either…


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

The Taylor will sit now. When nuts are found and arrive, I'll consider (GASP!) sharpening it myself… In the meantime, the saw 'rescue' is complete enough. Total refurbishment comes when it cuts and it truly a user. I'll post again when that happens. Thanks, all for the contributions and comments on the Taylor (my first import saw).


----------



## summerfi

I found this picture on another forum and thought I'd repost it here. This is 3 generations of workers at the Disston factory. Together they have over 96 years of experience there. The grandfather appears to be a handle maker. There's a handle in the vise, and you can see stacks of hundreds of handles on the left and behind the men. If you have an older Disston, there's a good chance this very man made the handle for it. The young chap appears to have landed an office job. Let's generously say he has 10 years experience. Based on his appearance, I'd say the father works with the plates, perhaps in the foundry or as a grinder or something similar. Let's say he has 35 years experience. That means the grandfather has been working at Disston for 51 years. I enjoy making saw handles when I feel like it, but can you imagine standing at that vise 8 to 10 hours a day, turning out handle after handle after handle for who knows how many years? You'd certainly get good at it. The old gentleman must still enjoy his job judging by the smile on his face. There's a lot of story captured in this one picture if you take the time to study and think about it. It's a story not only about Disston, but about a way of life in America during those times past. Interesting stuff.


----------



## putty

neat picture Bob,

I bet gramps could turn out those handles in his sleep!!
Wouldn't he be surprised with todays power tools.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Pictures like that make me wish I had a time machine.


----------



## terryR

Thanks for sharing that photo, Bob! Love it!

Oh…I know why gramps is smiling…










...a little mortise work from late last night. THIS is my kind of project! ONE piece of wood simply shaped as desired; no glue ups, no clamping, just hours of chisel, mallet, and rasp work.


----------



## Mosquito

I'm with Red on that one!

-
Sweet Terry, are you re-handling or building a kit?


----------



## donwilwol

I wonder if the old man ever stopped to figure out how many handles he'd made?


----------



## ksSlim

You gotta know Gramps had a quota to meet, how many of us could make a handle an hour?
Play with the math, it'll make you wonder how many handle makers were required to sell saws.


----------



## Slyy

> You gotta know Gramps had a quota to meet, how many of us could make a handle an hour?
> Play with the math, it ll make you wonder how many handle makers were required to sell saws.
> 
> - ksSlim


KS, also makes ya wonder just how fast 'ol gramps could turn one out!

Bob that's a fabulous picture I'll be thinking about that old man behind the vise the next time I pick up one of Disstons!


----------



## john2005

Smitty, that is a killer restore! I was worried at the first show, but I should know better. Very nice!


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Thanks, John! Plenty of warts up close, you know, but better than it was for sure.

Bob, awesome pic. Thanks for posting.


----------



## terryR

+1to the great restore, Smitty! I have a feeling that saw will be proud to work for you one of these days.

Mos, just replacing the painted tote on a Tyzack 120…slowly! I'm making up for all those years with a quota to meet.


----------



## Matt59

Great picture, Bob. When is it from?


----------



## summerfi

Not sure Matt. The named changed to Disston & Sons in 1871, so it had to be after that (per the caption). The picture appeared in a 1920 Disston publication, so had to be before that.


----------



## summerfi

Here is a J. Flint backsaw I bought on ebay. Joseph Flint operated from 1848 to 1888 in Rochester, NY and St. Catherines, Ontario. Like many early American sawmakers, he was British born and immigrated to the U.S. There's not a lot of info about him on the Internet. I suspect this saw is one of his earlier ones based on the typical British pattern handle, small diameter screws, and brass back. I'm going to say this is an 1850-ish saw, though I could be wrong.

I don't know if the saw originally had a medallion, but it came to me with two. The lower one was a typical British Warranted Superior with lion and unicorn. The upper one was a typical American WS with an eagle. I don't believe either was original to the saw. I've seen pictures of J. Flint medallions, and they came in two interesting versions. They were identical to the British and American WS medallions, except the word Warranted was replaced by J. Flint, while the word Superior was retained. I chose to keep the American medallion on the saw simply because it fit the hole better and the British one is badly worn on its face.

When I bid on this saw, I suspected, but wasn't sure, that the back was brass. The seller didn't mention brass, so I don't think he knew. Even when I got the saw in my hands, the brass was so tarnished that I couldn't be sure until I made a little scratch on it. If it had been advertised as a brass back, I'm sure the price would have been more than I paid. This being a somewhat rare saw, it will be one of my keepers.

*Before*










*After*


----------



## richardwootton

Wow Bob, great work as always! Did you apply a stain to the handle before finishing?


----------



## summerfi

Yes, Richard. I would have liked to keep the handle lighter, but I made significant repairs to both horns and the color was nearly impossible to match. In addition I filled some divots with epoxy, and those stuck out like a sore thumb. I also had to plug and re-drill one of the screw holes that had been wallowed out by an oversized screw. The handle looked pretty bad, so the only thing I could do was stain it darker to cover up all the repairs.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

^Makes sense. I was wondering how that could possibly be the same handle;-)


----------



## putty

Wow,
it doesn't look like the same saw. Is it crosscut or rip?
very nice job!!


----------



## richardwootton

Bob, I forgot to ask if you made the plate yourself.


----------



## summerfi

putty - it is 11 ppi crosscut. I would have made it 12 ppi, which I think is best for a 14" plate, but I cut the teeth on my retoother and I don't have a 12 ppi ratchet bar.

Richard - yes, I cut the plate out of 0.020 1095 spring steel. I've used 0.025 steel on 14" saws before, but the original plate on this saw was unusually thin, only about 0.014", so I decided to go with the 0.020.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Bob, that remake is ungodly good. I mean, wow… very nice.


----------



## chrisstef

Even kept the same hang angle. Your work is second to none sir.


----------



## summerfi

Hey, that would make a good logo. Warranted Second2None.

Thanks guys.


----------



## chrisstef

Who's your buddy?

(I hereby claim trademark unless gifted a first batch sash saw).


----------



## jmartel

I need to get me a saw plate stretcher like you have, Bob.


----------



## Tim457

Wow, you've outdone yourself Bob, and that's saying a lot. It looks like you went with tenon saw depth, what let you know that's what it was?


----------



## summerfi

I just make my plates the depth that looks right to me, Tim. I make 'em a little wider than some 'cause they'll eventually get narrower from sharpening.


----------



## terryR

Excellent restore, Bob!
The Saw Gods owe you…


----------



## JayT

Stunning work, Bob. Your restorations always show a lot of care and workmanship.


----------



## Wally331

Bob that restore is incredible! Every time I look at it I notice something new. Excellent job of patching that old medallion hole, with the stain and finish it is not even visible in the pictures. I was thinking about getting some ratchet bars machined for something like 15-16 ppi. I get requests pretty often for saws in that range, my highest ratchet bar is 13 tip, which is 14 ppi, kinda on the higher end for a dovetail saw.

It's a pain to tooth such saws by hand and have essentially phased that out. However for very fine joinery saws it would be nice to have a 16ppi ratchet bar. I cant imagine they'd be that difficult to machine. They're made from essentially 1/4 inch square bar stock, rivet on a few little pegs. With a digital readout on a bridgeport mill it would be no problem Imo.


----------



## summerfi

Hey Wally, if you make a 16ppi ratchet bar, make one for me too and I'll pay. I have the basic 5 that came with the machine. The optional ones are very hard to find but would be really handy to have. I don't mind cutting teeth on the fine pitch saws by hand. It goes pretty fast on the little saws with little teeth. It's those 4 ppi saws that are the killers. Sore muscles and blisters. LOL


----------



## ErikF

Bob, that saw is gorgeous! Wish I could take a few classes from you on saw restoration.

Glad to see there is some interest in ratchet bars around here…I'm going to make a few on the mill after my move, shooting for a full lineup of pitches and progressive pitch. If I get it dialed in I'll run off a few extra.


----------



## Mosquito

This just popped up on the local craigslist… that 385 sure looks nice…
http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/tls/4791471942.html


----------



## summerfi

Erik - put me on your list for ratchet bars please. Anyone need saw carriers? I have extras.


----------



## ErikF

Mos- you shouldn't have posted that. I'm driving from California to Michigan over the next week and didn't need a reason to make the trip any longer….

I might need carriers, I'll finally get to inspect what I have after our move. Should be there around the 30th of this month so I'll be doing an inventory of the foley stuff my dad picked up for me.


----------



## summerfi

Here is a matched pair of 1896 - 1917 Disston No. 7's. The rip is 28" with 4.5 ppi progressing to 5.5 ppi at the toe. It is said to have belonged to my wife's great grandfather. The crosscut is 26" and 8 ppi and came from ebay. For those who may not know, the No. 7 crosscuts had a lamb's tongue handle and the rips had no lamb's tongue. So if you see a No. 7 with lamb's tongue that is filed rip, chances are it has been modified. The No. 7 was the first handsaw produced by Henry Disston starting in the 1840s, and it was phased out in 1928 in favor of the D-7. They were a working man's saw sold to the masses rather than a premium saw like the No. 12, but they are very good saws.


----------



## knockknock

summerfi, your picture illustrates a problem with my Lie-Nielsen "rip" panel saw. The handle is modeled after the cross cut handle (on the right in the picture). This makes it more difficult to use alternative hand holds when ripping.


----------



## JayT

> For those who may not know, the No. 7 crosscuts had a lamb s tongue handle and the rips had no lamb s tongue. So if you see a No. 7 with lamb s tongue that is filed rip, chances are it has been modified.


Count me as one who didn't know. I learned something today.

Great resto's, Bob.


----------



## chrisstef

I second what JayT said. I learned me something and another top notch refurb Bob.

Had a coworker drop a saw in my office that was his grandfathers. Looks like a D-23 8ppi, panel saw, hardware store model. I can see a faint circular etch, hopefully I can bring her back to glory for my buddy.


----------



## summerfi

Good point knock. The hand hole on the No. 7 rip is large enough for the left hand thumb to fit in (for a right handed sawyer) while the notch between the thumb and forefinger rests in the rounded cutout on top of the handle. This gives the sawyer a more powerful stroke when sawing thick timbers, which a 4.5 ppi rip saw is intended to do. The LN saws appear to have a generic handle, with only the filing being different between the rip and xcut.


----------



## jmartel

> They were a working man s saw sold to the masses rather than a premium saw like the No. 12, but they are very good saws.
> 
> - summerfi


So what designates that the saw was more for the masses rather than a premium saw? I'm assuming the handle quality/wood is one reason, but did they use a different plate alloy? Different sharpening?


----------



## putty

Great job Bob.

you do great work, and your knowledge is amazing..like a historian.


----------



## duckmilk

Bob, I noticed a slight difference in the screw placement between the rip and crosscut saws. Is there a reason for that?

Beautiful saws, BTW


----------



## duckmilk

> Great job Bob.
> 
> you do great work, and your knowledge is amazing..like a historian.
> 
> - putty


Hmmm. Maybe he's older than we thought?


> Maybe he's the one in the tie in the Disston picture above


?


----------



## chrisstef

JMart - here's a good article on the difference of the steel and their composition between different makes of saws.

http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/steel.html


----------



## ToddJB

Bob, did they make they not put the lambs tongue on the rip for quick identification, or for more handle strength?


----------



## summerfi

> So what designates that the saw was more for the masses rather than a premium saw? I m assuming the handle quality/wood is one reason, but did they use a different plate alloy? Different sharpening?
> 
> - jmartel


Good question. They were a no frills saw, which was reflected in the price, which made them available to more people. The handles were beech with no wheat carving. The steel was spring steel. On Disston's premium saws, the handles were typically apple, were carved, and had a little different shape. The steel was "extra refined" spring steel which had another step in the manufacturing process. The premium saw steel was, I believe, polished a little more too. The sharpening would have been the same on both.



> Bob, I notices a slight difference in the screw placement between the rip and crosscut saws. Is there a reason for that?
> 
> - duckmilk


I'm not sure, but I suspect it was due to a little different manufacturing dates, or perhaps to being made by different people in different parts of the factory. The difference is pretty slight, and I really don't know.


----------



## ToddJB

> JMart - here s a good article on the difference of the steel and their composition between different makes of saws.
> 
> http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/steel.html
> 
> - chrisstef


Well thanks a lot - now I know my "one-son" is inferior in the grand scheme of Disston's old steel.


----------



## summerfi

> Bob, did they make they not put the lambs tongue on the rip for quick identification, or for more handle strength?
> 
> - ToddJB


I've wondered about that, Todd, and again I really don't know. One possibility is that if you're not careful, you can easily jam a saw handle into the wood at the end of a down stroke. This is more likely when you're ripping large stock with a lot of force, and that could break the relatively fragile lamb's tongue. That's just speculation though. Interestingly, most old British rip saws do have a lamb's tongue.


----------



## summerfi

> Hmmm. Maybe he s older than we thought?
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe he s the one in the tie in the Disston picture above
> 
> 
> 
> ?
> 
> - duckmilk
Click to expand...

LOL duck, some days I do feel that old, but I assure you I avoid wearing a tie whenever I can.


----------



## chrisstef

I don't know if I jive with what that article had stated Todd. Ive felt that when filing saws there's a bit of a difference in the toughness of the steel. The couple of Keystone saws ive done went substantially faster than some of the older saws like your one son saw. I felt like the keystone was a bit softer. Id also have to wonder about the grind or taper on the plate. Ive never used a micrometer to measure the thickness all though it would be an interesting little experiment.


----------



## summerfi

> Great job Bob.
> 
> you do great work, and your knowledge is amazing..like a historian.
> 
> - putty


Well thanks, putty. The truth is, I have some good books and the internet to refer to, and I've been living and breathing saws for the past year and a half.

Todd, you're right, that one son saw is terribly inferior. Send it to me and I'll put it away where no one will ever see it again.


----------



## donwilwol

well done on the matched pair of 1896 - 1917 Disston No. 7's Bob!! They look like brand vintage new !! The perfect look!


----------



## ToddJB

Bob, I'll be glad to send you my heap of scrap metal, but I know your cluttered up, so I'll return the favor by letting you send me a few of your foreign import saws with the flimsier brass backs.


----------



## bandit571

Got to looking at what was sitting around in the shop, and set out three saws









Front to back:
a WS built like a #7
a Disston D-8 ( one of three in the shop)
both of these are 8ppi
the back one is a Disston No.7 with 7ppi stamp.

Another look









The WS has some carving on the handle, too









And the Disston No.7 has this little thing on the end









The D-8s? One is from the late 40s, the other two are mid 50s…..The elder one is IN the tool chest lid, along with a Atkins Ship point saw.









Just a few saws….


----------



## Brit

*Bob* - Fantastic restores you've been posting, but I wish you'd stop raising the bar. I can't keep up. )

I've been restoring mortise chisels all afternoon and my arms and shoulders are killing me. Still got more to do too. What I need is a super, ultra, extra, coarse diamond stone. I think I'll have a break from it tomorrow and sharpen a couple of saws for a friend of mine.


----------



## richardwootton

Brit, have you tried 60-80 grit sand paper to regrind bevels, or flatten backs? That's helped me when having to regrind the bevel on plane irons that are way off and it speeds things up a bit. It does burn through the paper pretty quickly though.


----------



## Brit

Yeah I have Richard. For bevels it is fine, but I find that sand paper that coarse tends to have pretty inconsistent grit. Using it on the sides of mortise chisels would be a bit risky as it has a tendency to round the tip of the chisel slightly as you push forward. I'll persevere with my coarse stone. At least I know it is keeping the faces of the chisel perfectly flat.


----------



## mistermoe

In one month this fall, I went from one craftsman handyman saw to about 60. Here's one of my posts from another forum:

So, what do you do when you see an ad on Craigslist for 50 saws, including Disstons…"Need them gone, make an offer"...?

You start driving and call on the way.

The guy's Grandfather passed (I've been having good luck with Grandfathers on the other side) and they had to clear out his house. He was a collector (23 cigar boxes full of pocket watches, more than 1,000 clocks he said), and when they went down into a shed they found all these hanging.

There are about 50 saws and about half are Disstons (I started a little pile of them on the right), a couple of Atkins and a pile of WS. The Disstons are a mix of post WWII and between the wars, with a few earlier ones based on a quick inventory.

Now I have to explain to my Wife why. She had as many tools as I did when I met her (dream girl, right?) but this is going take a little finesse. They aren't actually in the house, so I haven't violated our Rule of Equilibrium (if you bring something into the house, something of equal displacement must be taken out of the house). I couldn't let these go to a decorator for TGI Fridays or a swap meet seller.

So, how much did it all cost? About a dollar a saw. They guy was just glad not to be tripping over them. Works for me!

Here's the quick inventory: middle figures are year ranges, e.g. 17-40=1917 to 1940. I didnt measure TPI, I just recorded the stamp, if I could find one. I also didnt measure lengths…cause I was tired.

1. Pruning saw, 17-40, probably >'28
2. Unknown model, 17-40, 8 TPI
3. D-23, 53-55, 10 TPI
4. Unknown model, a 7 or 8, 1878-1888, 7 TPI (I'm a keepin' this one)
5. Unknown model, 40-47, 8 TPI
6. D-9 Thumbhole, 40-47, 5 1/2 TPI
7. Unknown model, 53-55, 8 TPI
8. Unknown model, 96-17, ? TPI
9. D-23, 40-47, ? TPI
9. D-23, 40-47, ? TPI
10. Unknown model, 53-55, 8 TPI
11. Pruning saw, 40-47
12. Unknown model, 96-17, 8 TPI
13. D-7 (?), 40-47, 5 1/2 TPI
14. D-8, 40-47, 5 1/2 TPI
15. D-23, 40-47, 7 TPI
16. D-7 or -8, 40-47, ? TPI

There are a few more 50's Disstons in the car and about 30 WS of various makers, and about 8 of those have those distinctive Disston handle. I even have one of those awful plastic-handled disstons. I may just destroy that one on principle.

So… what the hell do I do now? I'm guessing I will keep about half of the Disstons and resist to keep the other half for handles and parts. I pulled one of the WS saws apart to test some different refurb methods. Ive used electrolysis on my old motorcycle parts to good effect - I may just try that 'cause it involves water and electricity and what could possibly go wrong with that combination? B^)


----------



## chrisstef

You can start with taking pictures for the rest of us saw junkies.

Groups of 5 preferred.



What a haul!


----------



## Tim457

Yup, we're here for you. When you have to sleep on the couch for buying that many, take a laptop with you and post pictures and details. Those handles look almost immaculate, very few chipped horns.


----------



## mistermoe

Any lumberjockey within driving distance of Baltimore can come over and paw over the WS's - some of which had to have come from the Disston factory. We will work out a sweet deal. Beer trades welcome. 

Right now I have them hidden between the rafters in my shop in the basement. They are feeling unloved. Come rescue them!


----------



## rhybeka

daaaang Moe! wish I was closer! I could use a few good starter saws and we have some great beer here  Sweet find!


----------



## Wally331

Wow nice haul! And as always Bob incredible restores! I'll have to comment a bit more on them later when I'm not on my phone.

Here are two of my newer saws. First is a sycamore handled 9 or 10 inch canted plate dovetail saw. The customer finished it and will be posting pics of the finished saw. She came out a beauty if I don't say so myself.


















Next up is a padauk handled dovetail saw. New medallions from Eric really spiff it up!


----------



## Matt59

> Well thanks, putty. The truth is, I have some good books and the internet to refer to, and I ve been living and breathing saws for the past year and a half.
> 
> - summerfi


Bob, can you recommend any books on saws and woodworking tool history? I find hand tools fascinating and try to read everything I can about them.


----------



## Wally331

WK fine tools has a tremendous selection to choose from. there is a new book out on British handsaw makers as well. A quick search will turn up more, I can't recall the authors name..


----------



## summerfi

Matt - To be honest, I only have a couple saw books, but I use them daily. One is Handsaw Makers of Britain by Erwin Schaffer & Don McConnell. The other is British Saws & Saw Makers from c1660 by Simon Barley.

There are lots of good old books and tool catalogs available for reading free online. These include saws, other tools, and woodworking in general. Here are some random links that I have bookmarked. I'm sure others will have additional links.

Toolemera Press
Smith's Key# (that's the short title)
Catalogue of American Patented Tools
Woodtools (this Russian site is incredibly comprehensive. Pirated online copies of just about every tool and woodworking book/magazine ever published)
WK Fine Tools
Saw Literature Online
Vintage Saws Library
Histories of Hardware Companies

BTW Matt, I haven't forgotten your one son medallion. They are just very very hard to come by, but I'm still looking.


----------



## DocBailey

Bob wrote:
__

"For those who may not know, the No. 7 crosscuts had a lamb's tongue handle and the rips had no lamb's tongue. So if you see a No. 7 with lamb's tongue that is filed rip, chances are it has been modified." 
__

This is actually not correct-I checked 5 of the vintage NOS #7s in my collection to verify what I thought I remembered-the non-lamb's tongue handle is on the 28" models; the lamb's tongue handle is on the 26 inchers-regardless of the tooth configuration.


----------



## summerfi

I stand corrected. Thanks for that info Doc. Disston apparently made a 28" crosscut. Did that one also have no lamb's tongue?


----------



## Buckeyes85

Wally331 did a phenomenal job on my DT saw. i asked him to cant the blade and put a lambs tongue on the brass back. It well balanced and cuts wonderfully. The tote is some quartersawn sycamore that i had in the shop. Finished it with several think coats of bartleys gel varnish and then rubbed out with butchers wax. i'm already debating what my next saw is going to be…have some burled claro walnut that will make a terrific tote!


----------



## bobro

Well that's one heck of lovely saw.


----------



## donwilwol

Nice saw Wally-Buckeyes. That's a great piece of wood on the handle.

Wally, you really need to get a maker mark on your stuff!!


----------



## Matt59

> Matt - To be honest, I only have a couple saw books, but I use them daily. One is Handsaw Makers of Britain by Erwin Schaffer & Don McConnell. The other is British Saws & Saw Makers from c1660 by Simon Barley.
> 
> There are lots of good old books and tool catalogs available for reading free online. These include saws, other tools, and woodworking in general. Here are some random links that I have bookmarked. I m sure others will have additional links.
> 
> BTW Matt, I haven t forgotten your one son medallion. They are just very very hard to come by, but I m still looking.
> 
> - summerfi


Thanks for those links and suggestions, Bob. Also, no worries about the medallion. Until Monday, I hadn't touched that saw for three months. I'll be using it for some upcoming projects, but I'm not worried about the lack of a medallion on it for them.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

More outstanding work Wally.


----------



## RPhillips

Wally. Those saws look phenomenal!


----------



## Slyy

Wally, always impressed with your work. Buckeyes has a great looking saw there!


----------



## theoldfart

Hey Bob, did Backsaw.net take a dive? Getting errors from the URL.


----------



## chrisstef

I think it moved hosts OF.


----------



## summerfi

They must be having some kind of technical problem today, Kevin. I'm sure it will be fixed soon.


----------



## summerfi

Here is a 14" Richard Groves & Sons sash saw. Unfortunately I forgot to take a before picture, but you can tell from the pitting on the spine that it was very rusty. It has a new plate filed 11 ppi crosscut. Everything else is original. Both horns are repaired.





































The saw makes a nice companion to my Groves 16" tenon saw. Now I need to find a 12" Groves.


----------



## putty

Nice Buckeye, I really like the sycamore, too bad that detail on the toe is not a bottle opener.

Bob, those saws are beauty's. How many saws do you have?


----------



## donwilwol

Excellent Bob.


----------



## summerfi

> Bob, those saws are beauty s. How many saws do you have?
> 
> - putty


Ummm….ummmm….darned if I know. I just know they keep multiplying, and now they're everywhere.


----------



## theoldfart

Bob, fine looking saws. I still get confused with the sash/tenon terminology, but I'm working on it!


----------



## redmosquito1

Hello everyone, I'm new to restoring saws and decided to jump into it after succesfully restoring several planes (Stanley 3-4-5-6-607 as well as a few extras.) I had 2 old Warranted Standard saws laying around that are in really bad shape with kinks and bends so I figured those would be good to use for sharpening practice. I then got on ebay and started looking at what was available and won an auction for a 40s era Disston D-8 in pretty god shape, handle needs to be refinished but otherwise the hard work is done on that one. I also won an auction for 7 saws, 3 thumb hole D-8s, a D-23 a Keystone Defender and 3 other random saws 1 being a disston 1 being a Simmons and 1 with a disston medallion but not positive its actually a disston as the handle doesn't fit great with the saw plate.

Anyways, there are a couple of the saws whose handles need refinishing or have cracks which no biggey. Several of the saw plates are in really good shape with no rust (look to have been cleaned up before) and several that are quite rusted.

I am wondering how to go about darkening the etch on the saw plates? On the ones that are clean you can see the etch but it is really faint and I'd like to darken that up. The rusted ones I'm sure are a lost cause, so any help?

Thanks


----------



## JayT

redmosquito, I did a blog post about darkening etches. There may be other methods, but this has worked well for me.


----------



## duckmilk

Wally, Buckeyes, excellent looking.

Bob, you repaired the horns? Can't even see it!


----------



## Matt59

> redmosquito, I did a blog post about darkening etches. There may be other methods, but this has worked well for me.
> 
> - JayT


I was just thinking about a back saw I've been cleaning up when I saw your post and clicked your link. Permablue, why didn't I think of that! Best thing is, I have some sitting in my gun cleaning kit right not three feet from my bench and saws. I'm definitely trying that soon.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

All the recent talk of apple wood put me on alert whenever talking with friends with fireplaces or woodpiles. Well, a brother of a friend had cut down a number of apple trees this summer… and had a log I could have. It was about 18" across, and today I used a log splitter to create a number of 'billets' that now sit in my shop.



















As close to 'quarter sawn' as I could split them. Still very wet stuff.


----------



## richardwootton

Very nice Smitty! It looks like there is some decent spalting as well. Have you sealed the ends yet?


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

That's tomorrow's job, and yeah, there is some spalting on a few of the pieces.


----------



## redmosquito1

Thanks for the link JayT, I will grab some gun blue tomorrow from BassPro while I'm out Xmas shopping and see how it goes. I have the second half of my saw vise in glue and clamps now, made it out of some 8/4 Ash I had laying around, front part has the stretcher through mortise and tenoned in but the back half I got lazy and just got the Dado blade out and half lap the stretcher in leaving it a bit proud. Either way once the glue dries it'll be ready to sharpen all these saw I have now.


----------



## putty

some future saw handles there Smitty!


----------



## Mosquito

Got another pile of parts from TGIAG yesterday. Parts for a brass back dovetail saw, and a crosscut panel saw to match the rip one I made earlier this year. Excited to get started on them, but probably not until after the holidays


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Awesome, Mos!

Some kind of handles for sure, putty.

I'm guessing the apple will be ready in 2016 or so.


----------



## summerfi

Great find on the apple Smitty. I've found that apple is some of the nicest wood to work with. Maybe that's why they used it for saw handles way back when.

Mos, I have 4 brass backs coming from TGIAG too.


----------



## Brit

Congrats on the Apple Smitty. I can't wait to see what you do with it.

Apple is nice to work with Bob, but for my money I don't think you can beat old growth guartersawn beech for saw totes. Last year when we had some very high winds coupled with persistent rain in the south of England, a lot of trees came down in the ancient New Forest national park just down the road from me. I went for a few walks around the areas I know to be full of old beech trees to see if there were any pickings to be had. They all belong to somebody, so unfortunately you can't just help yourself, fallen or not. I must confess I had a tear in my eye seeing so many great trees on the ground. Anyhow I walked past one beech tree that had fallen and split along its length to reveal some incredible figure. I stood there for ages thinking if only… )


----------



## RPhillips

Nice score on the apple Smitty! Next time I go to the local Orchards I['m going to ask if they have a piece or two that I can acquire.


----------



## summerfi

I'd love to have some quarter sawn European beech, Andy, or even American for that matter. It seems you just can't get it here. Flat sawn is easy to come by, but not QS. One place I contacted has it, but just laughed when I said I only want 10 board feet. Said it wasn't worth their time to sort for QS.


----------



## planepassion

Andy, what are the chances of identifying the owners of the fallen trees? In these parts, owners would jump at the chance for someone to not only clear them, for free, but to know that the wood was being put to good use. I have to think that the English equivalent of the US Forest and Parks service would be open to positive uses for reclaimed wood as well.

In Colorado, pine beetles have ravaged some of our parks, killing the trees. So it has become fashionable to use beetle-kill wood in restaurants, breweries and homes. The beetle-kill pine has some lovely spalting too.









The ceiling in this pick is made of beetle-kill pine, as is the wall behind the taps (not pictured.)


----------



## MikeUT

I think I'm going to try my hand at bringing this Keen Kutter saw back to life. I'm going to use JayT's advice to get the etching to pop a little more. It doesn't have a medallion on the handle. Is there any chance that this long wing nut is original?


----------



## summerfi

Mike, it looks like that could be part of what's called a nest of saws that has several blades that use the same handle. The handle is detachable from the blades, so yes, the wing nut could be original.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Ends sealed!


----------



## Brit

Brad - Not much hope in identifying who owns the trees I'm afraid. I believe the clearing of fallen trees is sub-contracted out to various companies in the area.


----------



## Waterlog

Picked up this split-nut John Cockerill backsaw today 8 minutes after it was listed on eBay. Looks like a nice user saw. I'd like to get some feedback on the company (also marked Sheffield) and possibly an age estimate. Any comments would be appreciated. Thanks.


----------



## summerfi

John Cockerill was a secondary brand name used by Spear & Jackson. My British saw book shows a picture of an identical name stamp as in your first picture with a date of 1900.


----------



## Waterlog

Thanks Bob. I just ordered Simon Barley's book on British saws. Ordered directly from him for less than any where else. This saw isn't particularly fancy but the handle appears perfect and the rest looks good, could not pass it up on a BIN.


----------



## summerfi

You'll love Simon's book. I asked him to autograph mine, which was a nice addition. Your saw will make a nice user, and you got it for a great price!


----------



## JayT

The 2015 hand tool calendar is available for order. Heavier on saws this year, thanks to a tremendous increase in droolworthy pics from this thread (looking at you Bob and Erik, amongst others)


----------



## RPhillips

What type of drill bit would you recommend for drilling a saw plate?

Thinking about a Carbide Spade Bit from McMaster, but would really like to find a possible solution from Lowes.


----------



## Mosquito

Carbide spade bit is exactly what I would recommend. I've tried a few different flavors of "standard" drill bits. Various materials and coatings. The spade is by far the best out of all of them.


----------



## bandit571

Just go and get a Masonary drill bit, like those used on hammerdrills on concrete.

Seems to work very nicely, too. Without the hammerdrill though. Drill press is fine.


----------



## DanKrager

A saw plate is pretty tough stuff, but a good twist drill should penetrate it OK. I think the main reason the spade and carbide bits seem to do better is that they have a zero degree rake. I've dubbed some of my extra twists to near zero or zero rake and that makes them good for saw plates, plastic, brass, aluminum, and other odd stuff. 
I'm not doing very much saw restore, but I did need to redrill a hole and it worked OK for the once. Durability may be questionable.
DanK


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Under 'Using,' this:










Showed it before, used it a few times today. Wow.


----------



## summerfi

> What type of drill bit would you recommend for drilling a saw plate?
> 
> - RPhillips


If you're only drilling one saw plate, you can probably get by with a HSS twist drill, but you may need to sharpen it a few times before you're done. If you anticipate drilling more saw plates in the future, you definitely need one of these carbide spade bits. They are by FAR better than anything else I've tried, and not that expensive. Amazon has them.


----------



## RPhillips

I plan to do a few saw builds in my near future, so I'll be needing some longevity out of the bits. I drilled two holes in the plate for that saw that I built for my Dad which wasn't very nice to the bits I used.

I didn't know that Amazon had them. Gotta a gift card from amazon and I think I know just how to spend it.


----------



## terryR

Blackburn tools has a nice carbide bit made in the USA for $12…

Smitty, that 95 is a beauty! Do you know how to activate the Automatic Filing feature?


----------



## RPhillips

This is my first attempt at a DT saw, it'll got to my Dad for a Christmas Gift. I like giving him all my "prototypes" lol


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

> Smitty, that 95 is a beauty! Do you know how to activate the Automatic Filing feature?
> 
> - terryR


Oh, wouldn't that be so cool???


----------



## jmartel

I'm going to be needing some panel saws (Crosscut and rip) for a bed project this spring. The bed is going to be made out of old beams, so the only other option would be my bandsaw, but I think hand sawing would be faster and easier than rigging up the bandsaw.

Recommendations? Vintage or new, but would probably prefer a cheaper vintage. Not even sure if anyone makes new panel saws nowadays.


----------



## Mosquito

What size Jmart? LN has 20" panel saws as does Wenzloff & Sons (Sold at Lee Valley). Pax also has some panel saws for a little bit less than those two.

Vintage isn't so bad, as long as it's relatively straight and you can sharpen it up.

A small crosscut panel saw to match the small rip panel saw I made is in the queue, along with a brass back dovetail saw (I have the parts waiting in my shop).


----------



## bandit571

Have about four sitting in the bottom of a tool chest right now, not doing anything with them









Would have to go and look at them for more info…


----------



## Airframer

Pretty sure Erik or Wally could help you out in the new realm as well. Honestly though.. Vintage saw are still great and pretty cheap to get a hold of and fix up.


----------



## jmartel

Pax saws are about half price it looks. I'm a bit leery on Pax though, based off of this: http://www.theunpluggedwoodshop.com/the-good-the-bad-and-the.html

Not really sure on size. Beams needing cut will probably be about 6×6". I've got a short ~$15 crosscut saw, but don't really care for it. Handle is terrible, impulse hardened teeth, very rough surface left behind, etc. I think the vast majority of what I need is going to be a crosscut, so I might spring for a nicer one of those.

Based off of only looks, I prefer the look of the Lie-Nielsen over the Wenzloff at least.

I also don't mind buying vintage, even if it costs the same to get a vintage saw or two and the sharpening equipment for it.

If buying new, I'm getting a damn good one. I've switched mindsets in recent years to avoid cheaper tools. I'd rather get something twice as expensive if it means using it more.


----------



## terryR

jmartel, my advice would be to avoid the LN Panel saw, unless you grab the 15ppi version. I have the 7 or 8ppi filed crosscut, but that's too aggressive for the thin plate, and mine bends all the time in use. Or, truthfully, it never gets used…

But, I scored a sweet Bishop Panel saw sharp from Wally331 for next to nothing! Filed crosscut with about 11 or 12ppi and works great on 4/4 woods! Would definitely consider a vintage saw from this forum already sharpened. gives you a few months to gather sharpening tools and practice, too.


----------



## summerfi

jmart - A panel saw would do the job on 6"x6" material, but a full size (26") handsaw would be more efficient. I've never owned a LN or Wentzloff, but I'm not convinced they are better than a quality vintage saw you could get a lot cheaper. It's not much work to make one useable again. Sharpening would be the hardest part if you're not experienced with it, but even if you have to pay to have someone sharpen it, you'll still be ahead in cost. Just stick with the name brands like Disston, Simonds, or Atkins, and the older the better for quality.

Edit: Bishop, as Terry mentioned, is another quality vintage brand, but harder to find. For larger stock like you're planning to cut, 8 ppi would be about right. Terry, have you thought about selling your LN? I see they bring a good price on ebay. Or do I recall it was a gift that you're obligated to keep?


----------



## jmartel

Thanks for the advise. I've been searching for old hand saws, but most have been a bit too rough or bent so I haven't bought any.


----------



## terryR

Yeah, Bob, That saw was an anniversary gift. 
I'll have to re-file it one of these days, or sneak it out of the shop?


----------



## ToddJB

Terry you can lose it in the move - right into my till.


----------



## terryR

^That could happen…

Sorry for the mess, but here's my last 4 saw purchases…vintage from this forum…










L-R: Spear, Disston, Brown (Disston), Bishop from: Bob, Stef, and 2from Wally. All sharp and ready to go for much less than ONE used LN! IMO , this group is the place to buy saws. just hope I can learn to sharpen before these guys loose their edge…

Oh yeah, Merry Christmas ya'll.


----------



## jmartel

On that note, anyone want to give up a Disston No. 12?

Watching a couple on fleabay over the next few days. Theres little to no rust available on the west coast.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

^I'd hit up some of the LJs mentioned with pms Jeff. Like Terry, if your patient the saw nuts here are a great source.


----------



## donwilwol

for those who have not seen JayT's article on raising the etch on a saw restoration.

http://www.timetestedtools.com/hand-saw-restorations---how-to-bring-back-the-detail-of-an-etch.html


----------



## Waterlog

So here goes my first experiment with electrolysis. I forgot to take a picture before I put in the water and washing soda but there is a Biggins & Sons and a Disston backsaw plate with backs on in there. It went in at 12:45. I am guessing about 4 hours should do it. Pictures don't cooperate when I upload here, they all end up on top. Before shots and the bath for your review. I am using a 1 AMP motorcycle battery charger. I have a 10 AMP but it is automatic and my understanding is you are to do this on manuel.

"Wake up and smell the rosewoods …....... or just wake up! Lester Burgess


----------



## Waterlog

Well after 10 hours, 95% of the rust is gone but the jury is still out on this process. I have used straight vinegar before and frankly, I think it works better but takes longer. This Disston saw is pitted way more than I thought, I probably will have to replace the plate!

I need to sleep on this.


----------



## Waterlog

Well after 10 hours, 95% of the rust is gone but the jury is still out on this process. I have used straight vinegar before and frankly, I think it works better but takes longer. This Disston saw is pitted way more than I thought, I probably will have to replace the plate!








!

I need to sleep on this.


----------



## grfrazee

@Waterlog, it looks like you're using zinc-plated bolts as your anodes. I was under in the impression that one would want this to be bare steel so that the rust is electrochemically attracted. Maybe you'll get better results if you remove the zinc coating from the bolts?


----------



## Waterlog

That's a good point, I thought about that but didn't think it was zinc. These bolts were all I had on hand but before I do this again, I will pick up some rebar or bare steel or iron. I haven't given up yet. Thanks for the feedback.


----------



## ToddJB

I've had good results with cookie sheets, too. Don't tell my wife


----------



## john2005

....what do the cookies taste like?


----------



## ToddJB

...full of calcium


----------



## terryR

Waterlog, Thanks for sharing your first experiment! Looks like you've read a bit on the subject. I've never tried, but will now thanks to you! 

Love your Biggins!!! (good thing we are all men here, that sounded bad!)

+1to steel anodes. The zinc can be removed from your hardware using ?vinegar? It's been a while since I did that, and don't remember the solution, but The Schwarz mentioned it in a Blog…I'll double check vinegar.

Todd, what did you use the cookie sheets for?


----------



## ToddJB

Terry, anodes. Nice big surface area. It takes longer for the gunk that builds up on the anode to cover the whole sheet.


----------



## DonBroussard

I finally got my first thumbie-a D-8 5-½ ppi with a decent etch. Looks like it's been sharpened a few times. I haven't really started to clean up the plate yet, but I removed the tote/toat and brushed off the saw nuts. It looks like the nuts on the presentation side are brass and the mate on the opposite side are steel. Is is unusual for there to be different metals on the saw nuts?


----------



## RPhillips

What do you guys think about this match up? Padauk and copper. Hardware will be copper to match the back.


----------



## Brit

Looks good to me Rob. That is a nicely shaped tote.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Looks pretty good. Keep in mind the paduak will mellow out and darken a bit.


----------



## planepassion

No Don B, it's not usual to have brass mated with steel nuts. That says to me that the previous owner lost the brass nuts, or they were broken, and he replaced them with steel ones. You can order vintage Disston hardware at various places online. But truthfully, the cheapest and best way to rustle up some hardware is to purchase a beater, used up saw, and cannibalize the hardware off of that.

Nonetheless, sharpen up your new thumby and enjoy its sawing awesomeness!


----------



## DonBroussard

Thanks, Brad. I suspected those mismatched nuts weren't original to the saw. I'll see if I can find some period correct brass nuts put back on the saw.

Congrats on having Post 9000!


----------



## terryR

The saw tote that took 6 months of procrastination efforts is finally done! A Bubinga replacement for my Tyzack 120 since the original is boring and very uncomfortable to hold.










I used a vintage Tyzack template from TGIAG which included the sexy lamb's tongue, and increased the hang angle slightly. All the shaping was done by hand with rasps, then sanded to 600 grit. The finish is simply buffed wax, hard and easy to re-apply. This guy was recently sharpened by Mark Harrell of Bad Axe, so I really need it as a user. But since I could fit ALL of my hand in the tote, it never felt good to use. Problem solved! 

I'm pretty sure my OCD will force me to place a black plastic spacer behind that cracked medallion soon! I haven't noted a replacement after year of casual searching.

Since my drill press has a limited travel, I bummed up one of the counterbores on the front a little. Have figured a way to drill these on the lathe from now on! Wait for those pics!!!


----------



## Brit

Simply divine my good fellow, positively droolworthy. Those plastic washers are really crap aren't they. Mine is in three bits, but thankfully the bolt holds it altogether somehow.


----------



## summerfi

Huge improvement Terry. Nice work.


----------



## donwilwol

I love it Terry.


----------



## Tim457

Terry that handle is superb.


----------



## theoldfart

Wonderful work Terry.


----------



## putty

I bought this unfinished dovetail saw from LJ ErikF, it arrived around thanksgiving, My wife grabbed it and said Oh Good, this will be one of your Christmas presents.










Lots of rasping, sanding and polishing I now have this.



















I used a variety of rasps and sandpaper finished with 2 coats of wipe on poly and paste wax.


----------



## racerglen

Nice work Putty !


----------



## Brit

Great job Putty. That's a lovely piece of wood.


----------



## putty

Thanks Glen and Andy

I think it is Claro Walnut


----------



## chrisstef

Good lookin saw putty. Great shaping on the handle.


----------



## DonBroussard

terryR and putty-Great work on your saws, fellas!


----------



## theoldfart

Fine looking DT saw putty.


----------



## putty

thanks, Kevin…I only shaped the handle though.


----------



## summerfi

I invite you to read my blog about Restoration of An Early 1840s Disston Backsaw.


----------



## theoldfart

^ WOW !


----------



## richardwootton

Bob I'm always in awe of your work! Puttin' Bad Axe to shame friend!


----------



## BigRedKnothead

^ I would pay Bad Axe money for one Bob's saws if I needed one. They're that good.


----------



## summerfi

Thanks gents. Much appreciated.


----------



## Slyy

> ^ I would pay Bad Axe money for one Bob s saws if I needed one. They re that good.
> 
> - BigRedKnothead


Hard pressed to find anyone who wouldn't absolutely agree with that sentiment Red!

Terry, on your Tyzack, that came out looking GREAT! I have two Tyzack back saws of about the same era (circa 1950 and one's a 120 as well) that were my grandfathers! When I get my shaping skills up it would be wonderful to give them fitting handles like that! He was a such a practical guy in his wood shop that I know he'd have hated to take the time to change up an otherwise good working tool when that time could be put to work. At the same time I'm sure he'd know how to appreciate having some of the tools look just as good as the work they make!


----------



## summerfi

This 1850's Disston No. 9 sold on ebay yesterday for* $5,436.69*. Wish I had a few of those laying around.


----------



## RPhillips

^ Wow!


----------



## putty

What is so special about that saw Bob?


----------



## summerfi

It's just a rare early No. 9 in good condition. Notice the cone nuts and something I've never seen before, a cone medallion. Unfortunately my No. 9 is about 20 years later.


----------



## putty

something is funky about the bid history on that saw Bob. It jumps from $412.00 to $5336.00


----------



## lateralus819

I dont think they show auto bids or something putty.

Still seems quite high for a saw. Then again i am not a collector. Obviously whoever purchased it has plenty of money.


----------



## putty

Lat,

you can turn the auto bids on or off, that was with the auto bids on.


----------



## summerfi

Maybe it's like what happened to my son once on an online car auction. He meant to bid $7,000 on a truck but accidentally hit an extra zero and bid $70,000. LOL


----------



## summerfi

So I looked at the bids on that saw and here is what I think happened. The saw was sitting at $407.00 and 5..c placed a maximum bid of $5,336.69. Since the bid increment was $5 at the time, he temporarily had it for $412.00. Then r..n placed a humongous but unknown bid, and since the bid increment had moved to $100 he got the saw for $5,436.69. It would be interesting to know what r..n's maximum bid would have been.

Edit: I saw another No. 9, but not as cool as this one, go for $777 a while back.


----------



## chrisstef

I bet that guy is cursing his fat thumbs up and down. $536 sounds plausible. That damn fat thumb went hammered the 3 twice! Never seen a handle like that. Really cool saw.

Edit - or not. Lol.


----------



## Mosquito

Putty, let's say I put in a max bid of $475, on an item that's only currently at $200. Say I'm the high bidder at $225. Someone else comes in and says "Hey, I'm willing to pay $650 for that" and puts in a max bid of $650. Since that's higher than my $475, eBay just bumps it up to the next highest bid beyond mine, call it $480. The item would go from $225 to $480 with no bids in between. That's probably what you're seeing in the bid history, those kinds of jumps.

Or someone screwed up and will soon be single lol


----------



## DocBailey

Hi Bob










It's not my intention to be argumentative, but how are you arriving at the conclusion that the saw pictured above is a No 9?

I have a few #9s in my collection, and have a couple of references on saws, but know of no such beast.


----------



## putty

Mos,

I thought it would go up by pre-set increments. not a huge jump like that


----------



## summerfi

Doc, I'm only going on what someone on another forum said about it. I didn't see any markings on the saw that were conclusive as to number. The name stamp does show the word "Extra" which indicates it was one of Disston's premium saws. Disston was making the No. 9 as early as the 1840's, but I'm not sure when their other "Extra" models came on line. The No. 9 typically has a 3 lobed hand hole in the handle, but I'm thinking maybe some of the very early ones had a handle like this. Below are pics of the No. 9 I mentioned above that sold for $777. It has a similar but not exactly the same handle. It also has cone nuts and the "9" is visible in the stamp. I'm not certain, but I believe early on when Disston saws were made by hand, there was more variability in the saws, their plate shapes, handle shapes, screw types and number, and name stamps. There is a picture of a 1840's No. 8 on the Disstonian Institute that has a handle very similar to the recently sold saw, but no cone nuts and it would not have been stamped "Extra". That handle is said to have been made personally by Henry Disston, so no doubt that would contribute to a high selling price. In summary, I believe very early Disston saws didn't necessarily go by the book or match later saws of the same number that were mass produced. This seems to be why collectors are willing to pay so much for them. As for the particular saw in question, I can't say for certain if it is a No. 9 or something else, but it is definitely an early Disston with some of the attributes of a No. 9.



















Here is the early No. 8 handle said to have been made by Henry Disston.


----------



## Slyy

Bob, Doc: thx for the conversation leading to some great knowledge! Bob, where is the information about the ah dry Disston made No 8 handle? Would be interested in how that information was gleaned.


----------



## Brit

I was going to get that saw, but then I saw it had a screw missing. A bit like the person who won the auction if you ask me. LOL.


----------



## DocBailey

Hi Bob

Agreed as to the high degree of variability (and evolutionary nature) of early models. That $777 No 9 adds a great deal of weight to the argument that the $5400 saw is also a 9.

btw - have we seen pictures of your number 9?


----------



## summerfi

Jake - The info about the No. 8 handmade by Henry Disston is here.

Doc - Yep, I posted a blog about my No. 9 here. It's the one I made a new jatoba handle for. You'll remember once you see this picture.


----------



## Slyy

Thx Bob, didn;t even see that you had mentioned it came from the DI. Shoulda read a bit closer!


----------



## DocBailey

sure enough- Now I remember


----------



## DocBailey

I don't know if I ever posted these before, but here is one of my No 9s-a 28", 4 ½ point ripper





































NOTE: the single "Son" on the etch and the "Sons" on the medallion-this is as manufactured and dates the saw to about 1871.


----------



## wormil

That saw auction is FUBAR. The winning bidder has 3 feedback, 0% positive. My guess is someone ran the bid up to foul the auction and prevent a sale. It's happened to me before.


----------



## planepassion

Rick I don't understand. You mean that someone made that bid with no intention of paying? Why would someone do that?


----------



## Airframer

The seller usually will have a friend or another account they use to bid up bidders or foul sales if they don't like the way the bidding is going.

I have had a seller bid me up to a penny under my max twice before I figured out what was going on and stopped bidding.


----------



## putty

Yep, they are called Shill bidders


----------



## summerfi

Doc - that's a great old saw, and in very nice shape.


----------



## Brit

Lovely saw Doc. Do you know why it says '...& Son' on the plate and '...& Sons' on the medallion?


----------



## summerfi

> The winning bidder has 3 feedback, 0% positive.
> 
> - Rick M.


That does seem odd. I sent a message to the seller asking if the bid was legitimate and if the sale has been completed. We'll see what he has to say, but if it was him who placed a phoney bid, he probably won't answer.


----------



## terryR

Shill bidders? Really?

I've had some auctions end up weird…always wondered why…

Lovely No.9's, guys!

Bob, you are an amazing inspiration! If I ever grow up, I want to be just like you!


----------



## Mosquito

> That does seem odd. I sent a message to the seller asking if the bid was legitimate and if the sale has been completed. We ll see what he has to say, but if it was him who placed a phoney bid, he probably won t answer.
> 
> - summerfi


It would certainly be interesting…


----------



## summerfi

> Bob, you are an amazing inspiration! If I ever grow up, I want to be just like you!
> 
> - terryR


LOL Terry. You'd better consult with my wife before deciding on that.


----------



## Slyy

Never even thought that shill bidders would be on the Bay, guess I'm just honest enough not to think that way. Guess I'll keep my eye out more on that kinda thing when I'm on the Bay.

Beautiful saw by the way Doc!


----------



## DocBailey

Andy asked:
"Do you know why it says '…& Son' on the plate and '…& Sons' on the medallion?"

1) 1871 is the year that the company changed its name to "Disston and Sons."

2) The single "Son" etch dates the saw to the 1865-1871 period.

So it's really a matter of overlap, during which, I would guess there were plates already etched, which were mated to handles fasterned with the newer medallions.

All information courtesy of the disstonianinstitute.com

• medallion here (about 2/3 way down pg): http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/medallionpage.html
• etch here (about 1/2 way down pg): http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/9page.html

Thanks all for kind comments re the No 9 saw


----------



## Brit

Thanks Doc. I figured that would be the case.


----------



## summerfi

I got a response back from the seller of the $5000 saw. Here it is:

"Yes sale was complete and very excited over purchase. I do not know much on history myself but been told rare piece? Wish I knew something."

Sound believable? I'm skeptical.


----------



## bandit571

Here is a "saw for you all to drool over, IF you can name it









That red handle has a Steel plate, with three domed rivets. Might be about 14-16" long. ROUGH cutting, FAST cutting little critter…

Handle USED to have a bit of white lettering, but it was almost all worn off.

Not a Handy Andy, as they were a light blue.


----------



## Slyy

Yeah Bob I am as well, perhaps it'll be back up for sale?


----------



## Mosquito

I have my suspicions of some eBay sellers… 2lShark (Jim Bode) being one of them. I was once winning an auction for a handsaw, with a only 2 minutes left, when I got an e-mail that the seller ended has ended the listing. The next day, the same saw is re-listed… Was it not going for what he thought it should? (Very likely, given the fact that I was winning, and his prices are almost always too high for me).

I'd have understood if he never re-listed it; it could have been sold through his website, but that didn't seem to be what happened. It went for over $60 more than what I was winning at the second go'round.


----------



## summerfi

Guess what. The same $5000 saw sold 6 days earlier by the same seller for a BIN price of $42.50.

Here is the link to that sale. I reported the sale to ebay, but we'll probably never know the results.


----------



## putty

good detective work Bob


----------



## planepassion

"...I do not know much on history myself but been told rare piece? Wish I knew something."

That has scam written all over it. But then again, we do live in the land of milk and honey where millions of Americans have $5,000 lying around to buy luxury items that they don't know anything about.

I too was naive. Didn't know that shill trolls made the rounds on eBay. I've noticed that hand tool prices have been on a steady rise in recent years. Take chisels from the UK, for example. Got mine cheap several years ago. Now the prices are up there with US-based offerings. Wonder if shilling is affecting that.

Oh well. I want to be focusing on my woodworking techniques and building more projects anyway.


----------



## Slyy

Wow Bob, unsurprising that if that info was out there, you of all people would find it!

Well, knowing what I've learned here, basically if you are bidding on anything and a bidding war/competition occurs late in the game, just stop going after it. Dishonesty is so pervasive at times that it's truly sad that honesty is refreshing…...


----------



## Waterlog

You can report suspected shill bids to eBay. They have ways of tracking that activity and do not tolerate it. They can check for patterns on seller auctions. As far as cancelling an auction, that is a sellers choice that can't be argued. I've been on the unfortunate end of several questionable practices on eBay. Just have to learn the game.


----------



## Waterlog

I cut this tote/handle out today, then cut a slot. I am frustrated with the slot I cut. When I do a dry fit of the plate/blade, it points slightly to the left (maybe more than slightly). I could keep going but, it's bugging the crap out of me. No one would notice but me and all of you. I am sure it is going to track left. Do I need to throw it out and start over? If I recut the slot it will be sloppy, maybe use shims? Dang it!!!! I hate throwing work out, this is a nice piece of wood. Can I correct it when I chop the mortise?


----------



## summerfi

Waterlog - If it were me, I believe I would make a shim the thickness of the saw kerf, glue it in, and try re-cutting the slot. You have nothing to lose at this point. On the next cut, it may help to saw a shallow slot, maybe 1/4" or so deep, all the way around the perimeter of the cut. Then, as you saw deeper, make sure the saw blade follows this shallow cut.


----------



## Waterlog

I like that idea. Usually I can cut a good line freehand but this time I guess I got a cramp. Thanks.

Lester Burgess, Barker, NY


----------



## lateralus819

Bob- Do you use the mothod of clamping a blade down and running the tote acrossed it? That seems the most accurate to me?


----------



## summerfi

No, I do it freehand and have never had a problem.


----------



## Airframer

Hey Bob.. I think you might need to get a few more hammers.


----------



## richardwootton

If Bob is to saw restores, what Don is to plane restores, and Don is donyoda, then it should follow that bob is bobyoda. Does my logic follow?


----------



## putty

That is a lot of hammers, I counted 9 then there were mallets!!


----------



## summerfi

You can never have enough hammers. And then there are some hatchets hiding back there too.


----------



## terryR

Watelog, here's an easy method…










Just clamp a thin kerf saw to the bench exactly half the width of the tote. Use this to make the slot as deep as you can, finish up by hand.

OR, mark all along the cheek of the tote with a marking gauge to highlight the exact center. cut as desired with a backsaw.

IMO, this slot must be perfect. That's why I cut it first. mortise next. then bore holes…


----------



## JayT

> If Bob is to saw restores, what Don is to plane restores, and Don is donyoda, then it should follow that bob is bobyoda. Does my logic follow?
> 
> - richardwootton


Nope. There is only one Yoda, Bob would have to be a different Jedi master. Another master of the force that manifests itself in a slightly different way. I'm not versed enough in Star Wars lore to know the names of the others and who Bob most resembles.


----------



## summerfi

I've been told I look like Luke. LOL


----------



## ToddJB

Bob-a Fett - obviously


----------



## JayT

^ Funny, Todd, but he was a mercenary, not a Jedi master. Maybe Bob really is a mercenary, too, since he'll probably fix up any saw if you pay him enough.


----------



## ToddJB

To be fair, we never get to see under boba fetts helmet, you don't who is really under there. Could be Samuel L. and his Purple lite-saber for all we know.


----------



## chrisstef

Bobi-Wan Kenobi. Nuff said.


----------



## ToddJB

Hmmm… Doens't really have the same feel.


----------



## JayT

I don't know, Todd. The beard is definitely Obi-Wan worthy.


----------



## summerfi

You guys are killin' me.


----------



## ToddJB




----------



## Tim457

Haha good one. ^^

Bob's real picture is posted on here somewhere, I bet if you found that you could make a good Bobi-wan that way.


----------



## Waterlog

Thanks TerryR…..."Just clamp a thin kerf saw to the bench"

This is only the second tote I have done, the first one came out pretty well…....










I have watched hours of video on cutting a clamped slot, that's how Matt Cianci does it on his Backsaw DVD. I am interested in your use of a Japanese saw, I had considered trying that. My thoughts were take Bob's advise and glue a shim in and recut. But this time I think I will use a clamped Japanese saw. Aren't the Jsaws quite a bit thinned than the western or are you just starting it with the Jsaw? Thanks.

BTW…. I just received my signed Simon Barley British saw book in the mail today. Yeeha!
Lester

"I love the smell of sawdust in the morning", LWB


----------



## pastahill

I almost finished my first backsaw ( exept the eching) you can read the full story here


----------



## Slyy

> Hmmm… Doens t really have the same feel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - ToddJB


This thread just became so much more epic!
He probably does have the beard for a Bob-iwan Kenobi.
"These are the split-nut saws you're looking for…."


----------



## JayT

You know, I bet a light saber would be a great tool for making holes in saw plates. "An elegant weapon, for a more civilized age."


----------



## chrisstef

Any thoughts as to what this saw may be? Looks like a split nut, sunken medallion. Im supposed to pick it up on friday.










Me thinks its an early no. 9.


----------



## Slyy

Looks like it could be a contender Stef. Ugh, can't wait for warmer weather and Swap Meets…..


----------



## summerfi

It looks early Stef. I'm guessing early 1860s No. 7 with eagle medallion. How's that for getting specific.


----------



## donwilwol

yowza!!!


----------



## chrisstef

Fingers crossed.


----------



## DonBroussard

Stef-That saw might be worth over $5,000 to someone (half kidding). I hope it works out for you, and that it turns out to be a for real D-9.

EDIT-It's been fun watching Bob transformed into Bobi-Wan Kenobi. Bob-Do you have a son named Luke?


----------



## Slyy

My fingers are crossed for ya Stef. Not that I mind having a bunch of d-8's but it'd be nice to have something a bit older!


----------



## Brit

Call that specific Bob? Looks to me like it was made on a Thursday morning around 10:35am on a sunny day in June by old Seth Rakenfleam. Had a dog called Rex who sat by his side as he work. Man he loved that dog almost as much as he loved making saws. 'Twas a sad day when he passed.


----------



## Slyy

^tots LAWL!!!

Rakenfleam, ROFL


----------



## ToddJB

My grandpa had a dog named Rex that sat by his side when he worked. Then he had a son (my dad) that he named after that dog. When asked about naming his eldest son after a dog his only response was, "well, it was a good dog".

True story.


----------



## summerfi

> Twas a sad day when he passed.
> 
> - Brit


Seth or Rex?


----------



## summerfi




----------



## Slyy

> My grandpa had a dog named Rex that sat by his side when he worked. Then he had a son (my dad) that he named after that dog. When asked about naming his eldest son after a dog his only response was, "well, it was a good dog".
> 
> True story.
> 
> - ToddJB


Todd, absolutely no lie: my dad had a hunting dog named Jake, probably a decade or more before I was born. My mom swears up and down my name is strictly a biblical reference. I'm calling BS.


----------



## Brit

We're all as mad as a bag of badgers.


----------



## ToddJB

> My grandpa had a dog named Rex that sat by his side when he worked. Then he had a son (my dad) that he named after that dog. When asked about naming his eldest son after a dog his only response was, "well, it was a good dog".
> 
> True story.
> 
> - ToddJB
> 
> Todd, absolutely no lie: my dad had a hunting dog named Jake, probably a decade or more before I was born. My mom swears up and down my name is strictly a biblical reference. I m calling BS.
> 
> - Slyy


Ha. I employed the reverse logic to this when I got married. My wife wanted to name all of our kids Somoan and Eskimo type names (we're both as white as it gets) so I bought her some hamsters and named them all the names she liked. You can't name kids after your dead hamsters….. Totally worked.


----------



## putty

Todd, 
You are a smart man!!!


----------



## chrisstef

The year my son was born UConn, my alma mater, won the national championship in basketball on the back of our point guard Kemba Walker. I wanted to name him Kemba Walker Stef. Didn't fly. Neither did Domenic.


----------



## Slyy

Smart man Todd, smart man. I have a feeling my Dad worked the same kinda magic on my mother. Probably convinced her that biblical names were the way to go and, "Oh by the way, Jacob's a great choice" "we can just call him Jake".......


----------



## ToddJB

"Jacob had a limp, our son will likely be limp… it's perfect!"


----------



## wormil

My mom denied it but I have a sneaking suspicion I was named after this character


----------



## chrisstef

Well Bob, we were both duped! Unfortunately its not an eagle medallion or even a disston for that matter. From what ive quickly gathered its a Richardson Bros dating from 1867-1876. Ive never owned or even handled a Richardson saw before. Ill be taking her down to the shop tonight for an in depth inspection.

Heres a cruddy pic of the medallion:









I


----------



## summerfi

Very cool Stef. That's a very early Richardson Bros. medallion. That should be a nice saw. Can't wait for you to get it all cleaned up.


----------



## chrisstef

It doesnt appear to ever be dismantled and quite possibly never sharpened. Im hoping theres a sweet etch under the rust and oxidation. Its an 8 point xcut and 26" long. A really nice user size and configuration imo.


----------



## donwilwol

Atlanta guys

http://atlanta.craigslist.org/nat/tls/4827786167.html


----------



## richardwootton

Did I do my math right? Less than 25 dollars per saw, not including the extras.


----------



## chrisstef

Can i get on a payment plan? Layaway? Damn thats a hoard.

Found this up towards the handle of the saw:


----------



## Buckethead

That looks like an exciting find, Stef. Looking forward to more.


----------



## Waterlog

Picked up these saws from Craig's List today for $30. All in very good, well taken care of condition by a local woodworker who is down sizing. Hand saws are 2 Simmons, 1 Disston. 2 Disston Backsaws and unknown maker. The butcher saw is a Disston and not in the picture were 2 more hand saws plus 1 backsaw and a Disston keyhole saw. It was a good day. Not sure how to ID or date the handsaws. Also, included were 3 old saw sets and a saw clamping tool. Thanks for looking at my "show and tell".


----------



## summerfi

Wow, you got a steal there Waterlog. You can date Disston saws by the etch and medallion, and DisstonianInstitute.com has what you need to do that.


----------



## DanKrager

Sounds like a "you suck", Waterlog, while I gotta admire the haul.
DanK


----------



## Waterlog

I don't get it…...DanK, did I offend someone?


----------



## ToddJB

Waterlog, "you suck" is a common internet phrase that is awarded to someone when they get an amazing deal on something. It is meant in jest. Dan doesn't think you suck. He's saying, "Woah, that's awesome you lucky dog. Wish that could have been me. Great buy!"


----------



## Waterlog

Thank God….I was about to be mortified!! I guess I am a blog dork, I have not been doing blogs that long.


----------



## donwilwol

Ha, Waterlog, I don't feel so bad about the number of times a day I have to google the internet slang. And I make a living designing computer systems!

It definitely deserves a big "you suck". That's a nice load.


----------



## chrisstef

Thats at least a $200 haul waterlog. You done real well with that purchase. They all look really clean too. And its true, you suck


----------



## racerglen

You bet !


----------



## Buckethead

I wish I sucked that bad.


----------



## racerglen

Waterlog ? What do you mean "saw clamping tool" ? Like a saw vice ?
That'd push Stefs 200 even higher fershure.


----------



## theoldfart

Waterlog you can look here for Simonds history.
I have three right now and I'd be curious what models you have. The etches on them are quite detailed, especially if you get the Blue Ribbon ones.


----------



## planepassion

Waterlog, getting those beautiful saws-sharpened-and in working order for that kind of cash is one of those finds that you'll remember for years to come. Enjoy them in good health in your shop buddy.


----------



## terryR

Great score, Stef…cannot wait to see the restore!

+1 to applying for a payment plan for those Atlanta saws. You could probably double your money, and keep some fine saws for the shop! or get shot by the wife…

Waterlog, that's an awesome score. The 'You Suck' means we like you. If you piss someone off here, they'll just ignore ya.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

> Waterlog, that s an awesome score. The You Suck means we like you. If you piss someone off here, they ll just ignore ya.
> 
> - terryR


I dunno, when people piss me off, they're usually the first to know….lol.

Hey Bob and others. When I joined MWTCA they sent me this collection of articles on saws. Ya'll got this?


----------



## DanKrager

Waterlog, I worried about offending you when I did it because you are new to us. I'm glad you're catching on so quickly. Just part of the initiation rite, especially when you lay a picture bomb like that on us! You've joined a rowdy bunch all sliding down a slippery slope into the bottomless chasm of tool collections. Best bunch of guys I've ever been associated with. 
Do it again, man. Do it again and again!
DanK


----------



## summerfi

> Hey Bob and others. When I joined MWTCA they sent me this collection of articles on saws. Ya ll got this?
> 
> - BigRedKnothead


I don't have it, but I've heard good things about it. Does it have a table of contents that you could post a picture of?


----------



## terryR

^still need to join MWTCA…
wish anyone had seminars or classes in the deep South!


----------



## BigRedKnothead

> Hey Bob and others. When I joined MWTCA they sent me this collection of articles on saws. Ya ll got this?
> 
> - BigRedKnothead
> 
> I don t have it, but I ve heard good things about it. Does it have a table of contents that you could post a picture of?
> 
> - summerfi


Shoot Bob, I've read it. It's cool, but I'm not nearly into saws as much as you are. I'll just send it to ya.


----------



## summerfi

That's mighty kind of you Red. Thanks, and I owe you.


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## BigRedKnothead

Terry, they make it pretty easy to join online. Just pay with paypal.

http://www.mwtca.org/join-now.html


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## Waterlog

> Waterlog ? What do you mean "saw clamping tool" ? Like a saw vice ?
> That d push Stefs 200 even higher fershure.
> 
> - racerglen


This thread has made the "you suck" find even more fun…... thanks guys.

As for the saw clamping tool, it is like a vise, very simply made. After looking it over closer, I find it is marked "The Franklin Tool Company Buffalo New York, No.67 Franklin Quality Tools". The more I look it over the more I like it. It holds a saw very well too, clamping distance is 10". I had not heard of this company before. There are 2 exactly the same on eBay right now.


----------



## chrisstef

Never seen a saw vice like that before. Stef likey.


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## racerglen

X2 to that Steph, that's a master's saw vice me thinks !


----------



## GMatheson

I got a vise like that I've been meaning to restore. Found it in a box of random goodies I got for $1 at an auction. Took forever to figure out what it actually was. Nice and compact to fit in your tool chest.


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## luckysawdust

Gentlemen-I'm in the midst of a saw restore (trying my hand at it after seeing some of the results obtained by Don, Brit, and Bob, and all the rest!). I'm learning as I go, so I'd like some input at this point to make sure I'm headed in the right direction.

Below is a Disston D-8 that I've already done some work with. I've given it an Evapo-rust bath, and scraped off the thicker rust with a scraper. I've used a Random-orbital sander starting with grits 80, 120, and 220 (extra careful around the etching)… and I've come to the end of my 5" disk sander pads.



I *do* however have finer grits (320, 400, 600, 800, 1000, 1500, 2000, 2500) of sandpaper in flat sheets… which I could cut to size and use on the quarter-sheet size sander above.

Is using that type of sander bad juju for the saw plate in any way? Any caveats? I'd like to hear whatever advice or opinions you'd care to share. I plan on finishing up the plate by hand in the finer grits, unless there's a better way?

Also, as you can see in the photo-I've been able to remove most of the previous finish on the handle-and I've never finished wood with anything other than paint or varnish (farm fences, etc.)-but I'd like to do right by this handle-hoping to finish it up with shellac, or something like it. I've never done that before, so if you have any advice in that regard, I'm all ears. Even better, if you have a 'how to' you could link me too, I'll begin the optical osmosis process post haste!

Thanks in advance!

- Alan


----------



## summerfi

Hi Alan. I wouldn't recommend using either of your power sanders on the saw plate. The sanding marks will show, regardless of how you sand a plate, and the marks look best when they are linear and parallel to the long axis of the saw. I always sand by hand, except in a few cases with very rough plates I've broken out the belt sander with a fine belt. It really doesn't take too long to sand by hand. I rarely use coarser than 220 grit or finer than 400 grit. Some people sand finer, but to me it's a matter of diminishing returns.

The handle looks to be in nice shape. I use satin wipe on poly for my handles, followed by a light buff with 0000 steel wool and a coat of paste wax. Some people don't like poly and prefer an oil or shellac finish. So it's more a matter of personal taste than anything else.


----------



## duckmilk

Waterlog, does that saw vise clamp with a cam action? I'm envious (and "you suck").



> I wish I sucked that bad.
> 
> - Buckethead





> We re all as mad as a bag of badgers.
> 
> - Brit


Hahahaha!


----------



## Waterlog

> Waterlog, does that saw vise clamp with a cam action? I m envious (and "you suck").
> - Buckethead
> 
> Yes it does have a cam action, the bar in front is a round rod with off center pins on each end.


----------



## terryR

+1 to avoiding power sanders on a saw plate. I've used the 1/2 sheet sander before to remove pits with 60 grit paper, but those marks never came out of the plate. just about any scratches against the grain of the steel are difficult to remove. For me, I had to accept the fact that restored saws weren't going to come out shiny and new. Heck, I'm 49, so any saw older than me deserves a little discoloration due to shop life. 

Bottom line, Alan, whatever you do is correct. you get points just for loving the old tool. if you want it shiny, keep sanding by hand in long strokes to any grit you like! Honestly, it looks great as is IMO…You could finish the handle with Danish oil, BLO, stain, clear shellac or poly, or wax. The Danish oil is pretty simple and can add color.

Good luck, and welcome to the slippery slope!


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## summerfi

I was going to keep this quiet until I actually made some saws from them, but it's too exciting. I picked these up from my engraver tonight. Sorry for the bad picture quality. My camera doesn't like indoor shots in low light. They look fantastic in person.




























I'd really like to give Sean some more business. If anyone needs something laser engraved in wood or metal, I can put you in touch with him. His rates are very reasonable.

The medallions were made by ErikF. Haven't seen him in awhile, so he must be in the middle of his move to MI.


----------



## theoldfart

Holy ship Bob, those look fantastic! I like the scrapers as well. Looking forward to pics of those medallions on a saw.


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## NinjaAssassin

That's awesome, Bob!

What kind of saws do you plan on making and what price range are you thinking?


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## summerfi

Those aren't scrapers Kev, they're little bitty saw plates. 2 will be 8" gents saws and 2 will be 10" dovetails. I'm starting small and working my way up. LOL


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## donwilwol

Nice Bob. Erik's been on Instagram showing off his freezing shop and piles of lumber, so I'm sure he'll be back soon.

I'm going to have to put in an order for one of your saws.


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## theoldfart

Either way Bob, they'll be good. Keep us posted.


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## chrisstef

My gawd.


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## summerfi

Any time Don. As I've said before, I'm making two sets of 10 saws, ranging from an 8" gents to a 28" rip. Set #1 will have serial nos. 1-10 and will be kept in the family. Set #2 will have serial nos. 101-110 and will eventually be for sale as a set. In addition to that though, I'll make anyone a duplicate of any of those 10 saws, or any other saw they prefer. My prices will be (a little) less than the established boutique makers. I never want this to become a business though. Then it wouldn't be any fun.

Edit for AF's sake: Immediate family. ;-)


----------



## Airframer

> Set #1 will have serial nos. 1-10 and will be kept in the family.
> 
> - summerfi


 Uncle Bob! How have you been! :-D


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## jmartel

> Edit for AF s sake: Immediate family. ;-)
> 
> - summerfi


Dad?


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## ToddJB

Very cool, Bob. I'm pumped for you. They look great.


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## Slyy

Total OMG!!! That's amazing Bob! Can't wait to see them on something! Wouldn't mind a future Summefield in my stable at some point, freakin awesome!!


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## jmartel

Bob,

At some point I'm likely going to want to get some small brass medallions engraved to inlay into projects. Mind sharing what an approximate per-piece cost was? I think I still got some time before I buy a bunch though.


----------



## putty

Wow Bob!!!
Love the logo!! What wood will you use for the handles?
I think I'll have to order one too!
I have dibs on 101


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## summerfi

Jmart - A few caveats before I give you the price of these. I worked with Sean through a couple rounds of prototypes before I got these the way I wanted them, and there was some cost to that. Then he has to make a jig to hold the items stationary in his machine, and that's usually around $25. The clear plastic thing holding the medallions in the picture is my jig. Then, of course, the higher the quantity, the cheaper the price per item. That being said, for this batch of 24 medallions, he charged me $1.75 each for the 1" medallions and $1.50 each for the 3/4" medallions, which I think is incredibly reasonable. FWIW the plate etches were $4 each on the 8" plates and $5 each on the 10" plates.

Putty - I'm thinking I'll use figured walnut for the handles just because that's what I have, but I'm open to other ideas. Of course if someone special orders a saw, they can get any wood they want. Also FWIW, since these etches are going on small saws, I simplified the wording somewhat in order to ensure the wording was clear. Etches on larger saws will be slightly more elaborate.


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## jmartel

Cheaper than expected. I thought I had seen figures from someone (RogerBean maybe?) that medallions were more in the $7 each range. Yours works out to be <$3 each.


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## RPhillips

Nice Bob, put my name on the waiting list…


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## Brit

Very nice Bob. I can't wait to see your nest of saws. They are going to be awesome.


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## putty

101-110 and will eventually be for sale as a set

Bob, I just read your post again…I'm not wanting a whole set. My wife would kill me!

What will you be using for the saw backs, folded?


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## terryR

Jeez, Bob! Those are over the top! Beautiful!

Maybe cabinet scrapers would be cool, too?

I'd love to send business to your engraver…I also use scraps of brass on other projects. Those prices are more than reasonable for the end results IMO!

If Putty has already reserved No.111, I want No.112!!!!!


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## summerfi

> What will you be using for the saw backs, folded?
> 
> - putty


Yes, folded brass. I've made 1/2" backs for the gents saws, but for the others I'll use 3/4" backs from TGIAG. It's nearly as cheap, and much much easier, than making them yourself. Although I do have a folding jig in mind that I'd like to build.


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## racerglen

Just beautiful Bob, can't get over the quality for that low a price !


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Now I can strike 90 degree lines and saw straighter, perhaps?


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## DanKrager

Smitty, I've got one of those and it doesn't help a bit. Perhaps a bit if you're sober…
DanK


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Tried cross-cutting some walnut with it just now… very grabby, thin plastic handle is difficult to hold onto. Worth every one of the 100 pennies I paid for it.


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## Brit

Smitty - After that monstrosity I feel I have to post a real saw so people don't have nightmares. )



















I've been using this today to do some 8ft rip cuts. Man I love this saw.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Beautiful!


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## richardwootton

Andy, how's that big boy filed?


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## lateralus819

What kinda saw is that?


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## jmartel

> Now I can strike 90 degree lines and saw straighter, perhaps?
> 
> - Smitty_Cabinetshop


Impeccable. A true masterpiece of a saw.


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## Brit

Richard - Those photos were taken after I restored it but before I re-filed it. It is 5 tpi with 8 degrees of rake.










Lateralus - It is a W. Tyzack, Sons & Turner No. 3 circa 1920.


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## DanKrager

Wow, Brit. just wow. Just how much green goo can the interwebz take?
DanK


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## Tim457

So, not much you had to do to those teeth you're saying? 

That is a really stunning saw for it's age, or really any age for that matter.


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## ToddJB

Beautiful work, Andy.


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## donwilwol

That's some know and of pretty Andy.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Anyone have a reasonably priced user-grade backsaw they'd like to offload? 20" of blade, 12 tpi or so, and maybe 3 1/2" under the spine? Need a companion to a Stanley 150 mitrebox.


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## bandit571

Might have one, but I'd have to cut off about 2".....

Been using a 18" in my Craftsman mitrebox, instead of the 22" one….


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Got a pic handy?


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## racerglen

Sssshh, Bandit's building a , oops just built a plane tote !! From raw chunk of wood to tote for a wood body, whoo, fast work !


----------



## bandit571

Might have one









Medallion says "Craftsman" but looks just like the ones Stanley put out….


----------



## DocBailey

Hey Smitty

If you don't have these and want them, HERE are the instructions for the 150


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## chrisstef

Here's an interesting one for the panel. My boss brought me in a 22" H&R Boker hacksaw(?). Its got a crown medallion which is pretty crusty and either the brass nuts have been peened over or sanded to the point that the slots are missing. Blade is held in place with a tension nut at one end and a rivet at the other end. Spine is solid steel.


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## putty

Stef, it kind of looks like a meat saw


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## summerfi

Stef, that's a cool looking saw, and I agree it's probably a meat saw. Boker is a German brand. I have one Boker medallion in the Saw Medallion Reference Guide, but it's different. I'll be interested in seeing that one when it's cleaned up.


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## chrisstef

Meat saw it is fellas! Ill get you a good pic of it once I get it cleaned off Bob. Pretty pumped to add to your collection and even more surprised you don't have it in there all ready . I think this one will make a pretty cool wall hanger either in the shop or in the office.


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## putty

If it is German, then it's a Schnitzel Slicer


----------



## Slyy

Fancy handle for making bacon, still looks like a great wall piece Stef!


----------



## putty

I would clean and sharpen and use it. I use a meat saw often


----------



## summerfi

You could dovetail your bacon and steaks together.


----------



## summerfi

In case anyone was thinking about getting me a birthday present this year, here's a suggestion.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ULTRA-RARE-27-DISSTON-SPLIT-NUT-KEYSTONE-WORKS-EAGLE-MEDALLION-HAND-SAW-BACK-/171647855164?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27f7026a3c


----------



## Tim457

> You could dovetail your bacon and steaks together.
> - summerfi


Lol, what pansy wraps their fillet in bacon when you can dovetail the two together? And Putty do tell what you use a meat saw for, do you butcher your own game?


----------



## jmartel

Bob, for that kind of money you would think they could take some better photos.


----------



## putty

Tim.
My Neighbor gives me a whole ham every year at Christmas. I cut it in half and freeze for easter.


----------



## terryR

Bob, that's a sweet saw. But, for the price, I think I'll get you a metal lathe! 

We harvest livestock monthly. Got my wife a nice Mound meat saw over a year ago…never gets used! Now, I still don't have a clue what to do with it?


----------



## Buckethead

OH SNIZZAPP HOW DID I MISS THIS IT IS INFREAKINGCREDIBLE I BETTER GET MY DUCKETS IN A ROW IMA BE NEEDIN ONE OF THESE


----------



## richardwootton

> Richard - Those photos were taken after I restored it but before I re-filed it. It is 5 tpi with 8 degrees of rake.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lateralus - It is a W. Tyzack, Sons & Turner No. 3 circa 1920.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Brit


I want that saw so super bad!


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Doc, thanks for that link, it's great having those instructions!


----------



## realcowtown_eric

simple cross cuts can be easily done by looking at the reflection of the corner on the saw. Try it, check squareness. You may be suprised.

Eric


----------



## summerfi

This is a Woodrough & McParlin 28" rip saw filed 5 ppi. I believe it is a model No. 7 because there is a stamped 7 covered by the handle. When I got the saw, it was not in bad shape at all. The plate was oxidized to a gun metal blue but had no pitting. The apple handle only required washing with Simple Green, light sanding, and a small repair at the tip of the lamb's tongue. You'll notice there's a remnant of a label next to the medallion. This is similar to the horseshoe shaped labels on some old Disstons. Since there was such a little bit left, I considered whether to remove it or leave it. I decided to leave it because it confirms the handle is an original Woodrough & McParlin. The only words still visible on the label are "returned to Woodrough & McParlin, Cincinnati." The etch is almost gone, but if you look close you can make out the maker's name. As I worked on this saw, I was impressed with it's quality. I would say it's as good as any Disston I've seen. I have some special plans for the saw, but I won't tell you about those just yet. ;-)


----------



## richardwootton

Great job on a beautiful saw Bob!


----------



## theoldfart

Bob, next up a Panther? Nice restore, should be an awesome saw to use.


----------



## Brit

> I have some special plans for the saw, but I won t tell you about those just yet. ;-)
> 
> - summerfi


Word on the street is that Bob is going to cut it up into card scrapers. Say it isn't so Bob! )

Lovely saw by the way.


----------



## Brit

This little video from Paul Sellers might be of interest to this group if you haven't seen it already.


----------



## summerfi

Great info from Paul, and very timely for the project I'm currently working on. Another issue I've found with backsaws is that the spine can sometimes develop a slight spiral twist, again causing the blade to be crooked. Once you understand what's causing the problem, it's easy to correct by securing one end in a vise and twisting on the other end to eliminate the spiral.


----------



## chrisstef

Bob if your plans are to give it away to a fine younger gentleman id be glad to send you my address.


----------



## Brit

Do you have a fine younger gentleman living with you then Stef?


----------



## Buckethead

Andy! First in with the blast…


----------



## Brit

Yeah, I'm on form tonight.


----------



## chrisstef

Lol Andy. Thats what i get for lettin my guard down.

Actually …. Yes


----------



## Brit

That must have been one hell of a cake.


----------



## Airframer

No the boy was just reacting to his old man talking about his workbench….


----------



## Wally331

Bob and Brit, those saws are incredible! Excellent handles, and boy the plates cleaned up well!

I've been making a No. 7 panel saw for an Lj the last few weeks. Lots of troubles with the steel for some reason. Bought it as a pre punched plate from TGIAG before I had my retoother. Fairly sure the steel is about the same as what I get from mcmaster, however when I cut it on my schools shears it warped and twisted like crazy.









Carbide bit also shattered at just the wrong time… Nothings been going right lately! Ach…

I ordered a 10 foot roll from mcmaster, 8 inches wide, enough for 10, 24 inch panel saws, and I've bought a bit of quartersawn cherry for 3 no. 12's. Can;t wait for that project!


----------



## Slyy

Bob that's one nice looking saw. Gonna have to go look up the maker!

Andy and Eric with the quick Stef dig!

Wally, that panel saw is coming along despite the unfortunate confluence of events.


----------



## Brit

Here is a new saw maker that you need to know about and I'm pleased to say, he's English. http://skeltonsaws.co.uk/aboutskeltonsaws/










Review of his dovetail saw.


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## summerfi

Thanks for sharing that Andy. Does Shane live near you, and have you been in contact with him? It would be great to have him join us here on this forum.


----------



## Brit

No Bob, he lives at the other end of the country to me and I haven't been in touch with him. I only came across the saw by accident, but I have to say I really like the design. Excellent craftsmanship too.


----------



## chrisstef

Thats a great looking saw on multiple fronts. I love the big medallion.


----------



## chrisstef

Who wants to saw slueth?

Im working on a saw for a coworker of mine. His grandfathers. I was lucky enough to be able to bring bavk the etch just enough to make a few things legible. It reads warranted spring steel. Port Jarvis New York, Port Jarvis Saw Works. It indeed existed and looks to be bought out by CE Jennings.


----------



## summerfi

From The Evening Gazette, Port Jervis, NY, July 18, 1884.


----------



## putty

You are good Bob!!


----------



## summerfi




----------



## DonBroussard

Bob-Outstanding google-fu! That first posting on the Port Jervis Saw Works mentions "gumming" as one of the services they planned to provide. All the other terms/services are familiar except gumming. I thought gumming was something you DIDN'T want to do. Any ideas?


----------



## DocBailey

Don

Gumming is the process of filing/shaping the gullets.

Not something we'd do with hand saws-applicable to big one and two-man logging type saws with big gullets.


----------



## DonBroussard

Thanks, Doc. Learned something new today.


----------



## summerfi

Gumming is also very important in sharpening circular saw blades (moreso before the advent of carbide blades) and large bandsaw blades. Both are generally done by grinding. If the gullets are not deepened and shaped by gumming, the teeth become shorter and shorter with each sharpening.


----------



## Slyy

Thx for the sleuthing Bob, as always. Interesting to see the reference to gumming, certainly makes sense in the application of sharpening large saw mill blades and two man saws just never heard of the term before. I cant recall where I saw it (maybe an episode of Modern Marvels) but remember seeing a video on two older gentlemen who run a business retoothing large circular sawmill blades. Was a pretty interesting watch.


----------



## putty

Here is another term that I have never heard "Jimping" Sounds like a shaper to me. From the Disstonian institute. Here

"Jimping" is the next operation. In this the roughly cut out handles are brought in contact with swiftly revolving cutters, and the edges are rounded. The handles now pass on to the filers, who work them into the finished shape. This is followed by "sand-papering" on belt machines.


----------



## Tim457

Good stuff Bob, very interesting.

Nice link too Putty. Hah, even vintage Disstons were partly made on a router (or shaper I guess).


----------



## chrisstef

Thanks for that information Bob. The saw seems to fit the time period. His grandfather was born in 1900 which most likely means he got the saw sometime in the 1910's. Maybe second hand? The saw looks to be modeled after a D-23 with the floral carving. The only other difference is the steel nuts instead of brass.


----------



## putty

Have a backsaw with a missing back? Here is a cheap and quick repair…Another use for binder clips!


----------



## summerfi

I saw that one on ebay putty. Took me a while to figure out what it was.


----------



## DanKrager

Putty, that's not a saw, it's a cattle ranch! Maybe camera angle, but the cows and calves are abundant!
LOL.
DanK


----------



## putty

Cattle Ranch…That's funny!!!


----------



## daddywoofdawg

"can you imagine standing at that vise 8 to 10 hours a day" more like 12-14 hrs a day back then for 5.00 a week.


----------



## Slyy

Interesting fix there Putty, interesting teeth too. I'm still always amazed when I see some home fix for an old broken tool. Some of them could probably be refered to as MacGuyver-isms, others I kinda think ya might insult th Great Mac if you used his name to describe the repair.


----------



## putty

Yup…that thing is a wreck. Is that what they call a skip tooth?


----------



## kwigly

Stef,
C E Jennings announcement, Nov 1890, in Carpentry and Building (google book). ( I tried to snip and paste but failed. Sometimes I hate this computer)
" C E Jennings & Co of 79 and 81 Reade and 97 Chambers Streets New York, state that having purchased the entire plant of the Port Jervis Saw Works, including the real estate machinery and tools, they are now prepared to execute orders on a full line of Hand Panel Compass Keyhole Kitchen and Butcher Saws. They also state that they carry in stock a full line of Buck Saws. An interesting assortment of saws will be found illustrated in their advertising space this month" 
(I didn't find any Ad)
The same wording, plus more, is in The Iron Age, volume 46, Nov 1890 (another google book), and the advertising there continues to show "Port Jervis Saw Works" in the Jennings saw advert. So I think its possible that Jennings may also have marked saws made there with a "Port Jervis Saw Works" logo
Schaffer's book on North American sawmakers lists Jennings as operating in Port Jervis until 1932.
So maybe (by stretching several guesses together) if your friend's saw looks too modern to be 1880s Holden, it might be a C E Jennings from 1890-1932?


----------



## chrisstef

Much thanks kwigs. There is a band of lettering across a circular etch that i cant make out but i wouldnt be surprised if it said CE Jennings in block letters but ill be damned if i can make it out for sure. 1920's - 1930's would make more sense to go along with the timeline. I iriginally had it pegged as a d23 hardware store saw. The handle is qs beech. Was it typical for jennings labeled saws to have steel hardware? I think thats what really threw me off the scent.


----------



## kwigly

Stef,
No, I wouldn't think steel screws would be typical of regular Jennings saws either. 
The one Jennings panel saw I have (I don't see many Jennings saws here in Canada) has brass screws, and its etch is the regular "arrowhead" style that you see in most Jennings adverts and I think its representative of the mainstream Jennings product. 
I do have a C E Jennings backsaw with steel screws, but its altogether a bit of an oddball saw with the Jennings wooden back and removable blade.
If you have the old style domed iron screws, that would fit more with the 1880s Holden saw era, but if you have the flatter dome shape of the normal brass screws I would agree with your 1920s-1930s guess.
(p.s. is your camera broke ?)


----------



## chrisstef

Here she is all cleaned up.


----------



## kwigly

Stef, she looks all clean and ready for work. 
and that WS eagle medallion looks way too modern to be 1800s, (maybe too modern to be Jennings ?) 
another "mystery saw"


----------



## summerfi

Looks nice Stef. I agree that looks like a 1930-ish saw.


----------



## chrisstef

I concur on the dating gents. Thanks for the help with it. Im pretty happy to bring this one back to life for my buddy.


----------



## summerfi

Presenting saws 001 and 101. More details in my blog.


----------



## putty

Wow Bob …

Stunning How do they cut?


----------



## DLK

Hi all. I'm back. Reincarnated with a new LJ account.

My question today is: I have Diston miter box saw, but no miter box to put it in. I see several on e-bay at reasonable prices. Does it matter which I buy? I.e. will my Saw Diston saw fit in it. The Saw is 22 inches by 4.75 with an inch back. (Total teeth to top of back is 4.75 inches). Could some one advise me as to: what miter box to look for; what to avoid; and Ballpark (including shipping) price to pay for one?


----------



## summerfi

Don - I'm far from a miter box expert, but I can share with you that there's a thread on here dedicated to Miter Boxes of Your Dreams. There are people there that can answer your questions with ease. Welcome back!


----------



## RPhillips

> Presenting saws 001 and 101. More details in my blog.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - summerfi


Awesome Bob, gonna give that blog a read over tomorrow at work. Looking forward to seeing the rest of the set.


----------



## DocBailey

*Don K*

For the most common (and best) Stanley miter boxes, the 3-digit model number signifies the following:

the first digit is the frame number; the second is the height of the saw under the spine; the third is the length of the saw (beyond 20")

Thus a 346 is a Frame 3, with a 4" tall sawplate and a 26" long saw. [a frame 3 (3-series boxes) have a greater capacity for wider stock than does a frame 2]

Somewhere in my collection is a model 360 - this is an exception to what I posted above in that the saw is 30" long.
More importantly however, you should realize that the saw guides on this model (the castings which ride on the vertical uprights) would prevent a 4" saw from ever completing a cut, since this model came with a 6" tall saw.


----------



## DLK

Thanks *DocBailey* that helps. I guess I need to remeasure, but if my measurement was correct, then I gather from your post I need a box with three digit model number x32 (for some x) which I can't find on ebay.


----------



## DocBailey

Don K

Don't think you're going to find any such thing as that model number.
The lowest (least tall) stock saw height I know of is 4" under the spine.

Your saw (if I read correctly) is now at 3.75" under the spine-an X4X series box may well work, but I can't guarantee it.

Maybe these pictures will help …

compare the height of the saw guides on my 346









with the height of the guides on my 360


----------



## DLK

*DocBailey * I ran out to the shop and remeasured its 3.875" under the spine. Still less than 4" so I guess I'm better off looking for a "miter box and saw" together. (I guess one could raise the platform by adding a wooden layer until the saw completes the cut.) I suppose my orphaned saw can be turned into a really long and heavy tenon saw. But this is interesting. It must be that after several/many sharpenings a miter saw becomes not useable with its companion box. What then becomes of these saws?


----------



## DLK

.


----------



## Magnum

These are both Disston. I inherited them from my Father about 25 years ago. They were in such bad shape I just hung them up and sort of forgot about them.

A few months ago I decided that was no way to treat a couple of Good Hand Saws so I went at it.

Sorry no Before Pictures. One in progress and one after they came back from being sharpened along with a Draw Knife that I also redid at the same time.


----------



## racerglen

A sharpening question for the B.C. members, a new LJ and myself are trying to find a sharpening service,
or guy to do some work. He's headed for Vancouver (B.C. not Washington ;-) in a while and has spotted one on Kingsway in Port Coquitlam, surely there's something closer ?
My sharpening is sketchy at best and I'm way behind .
Thanks for any help !


----------



## ErikF

Just got done catching up on the forum and feel that I have enough saw history knowledge to start compiling a book. I'm just about done settling in from our cross country move and am happy to say that the new shop is pretty much done, I'm even filing a few teeth this morning. Now I have to show of the new shop a little bit.


----------



## donwilwol

I'd be the cleanup guy to hang out in that shop for a while.


----------



## racerglen

Lookin' good Erik !
See you even have a fan for when the sweat starts pouring onto that fresh saw plate ;-)


----------



## summerfi

Rick - That's a great looking pair of D-8 panels. Nice job!

Erik - Welcome back. We've missed you around here. Congrats on completing the move and setting up a great shop.


----------



## summerfi

I bought some backsaws in the UK yesterday. Just call me wild and crazy.


----------



## theoldfart

Uh, did you leave any for the Brits? You know that the market price for English back saws in the US will be depressed. Whatahaul.


----------



## putty

That is just crazy, will you clean and sharpen all of them?


----------



## chrisstef

Holy crap Bob! Thats the mother load. If theres a moses eadon in that lot we need to talk.


----------



## putty

Erik, 
How are you liking Traverse City in the winter? You need to make to Sleders to kiss the moose.


----------



## summerfi

> will you clean and sharpen all of them?
> 
> - putty


I plan to, unless someone makes me an offer before I get around to it. There are 34 backsaws, 2 compass saws, and 2 little handsaws. As best I can tell, all but 2 or 3 of the backsaws are brass. I've studied close up photos and roughly divided them into 4 quality/value levels. With 1 being the best, there are 9 saws in level 1, 19 in level 2, 7 in level 3, and 3 in level 4. I'll probably sell all but the level 1 to recover costs and maybe make a little profit. Shipping alone was $120. If you ever wanted a British brass back, now's your chance.

FWIW, here are the saws in level 1. A brass Disston, Vickers, Lindsley, Drabble & Sanderson, E. Garlick & Son, Atkin & Son, and 3 that I can't make out the name but they are old with split nuts.


----------



## racerglen

second the "leave anything behind" type comment from Kevin . WOW, that's a whole lot of saws Bob, never mind your files getting worn, your eyes will be crossed for weeks !


----------



## Tim457

Sign me up Bob. That's quite a haul.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Lol Bob. That might be the definition of "wild and crazy." Hopefully you don't get so attached you can actually sell some;-)


----------



## summerfi

Nah, I won't have any trouble selling them. I've restored almost 60 saws in the last year or so, and most of those are gone now. If a saw is a keeper, it speaks to me right away. There are 7 people on the waiting list so far, so get 'em while they're hot.


----------



## DonBroussard

Bob-Nice haul. A quick scan of the pic suggests that most, if not all of the totes are intact. I like the way you classified them into four groups based on quality and value.


----------



## Waterlog

Can anyone tell me from looking at these pictures what model this miter saw is, if it is a good model to acquire, and what it's value could be assuming it is in good condition with all it's parts. I have not seen it in person yet. It has patent dates on it 10/5/09 and 1/2/12. Thank you. Lester


----------



## Waterlog

Can anyone tell me from looking at these pictures what model this miter saw is, if it is a good model to acquire, and what it's value could be assuming it is in good condition with all it's parts. I have not seen it in person yet. It has patent dates on it 10/5/09 and 1/2/12. Thank you. Lester


----------



## ToddJB

Wow, Bob. Throw me in the mix. I need a dovetail saw.


----------



## terryR

Good grief, Bob! 35 backsaws? AND the beginning of your Numbered Series?
Over the top.

You may need a website…


----------



## summerfi

> You may need a website…
> 
> - terryR


I've been thinking that too Terry. Problem is, I REALLY don't want this to turn into a business/job. I want to continue enjoying what I'm doing, not be enslaved by it.


----------



## terryR

+1 to that!


----------



## chrisstef

If the burden becomes too much Bob, ill send you my address.

I started in on the W. Butcher saw last night. Drilled out the copper rivets, got the handle removed and started derusting the old girl. She's not in bad shape.


----------



## Mosquito

Just don't take orders Bob. Just do 'em up and list them as you get them done. You can work at your own pace and list as many or few as you want.


----------



## summerfi

^ wise advice


----------



## Mosquito

that's probably about the only way I'd do it too, because I have the same reservations as you; keeping it fun


----------



## BigRedKnothead

> Just don t take orders Bob. Just do em up and list them as you get them done. You can work at your own pace and list as many or few as you want.
> 
> - Mosquito


Sometimes "spec" items are tough to pull off on highly customizable goods. My strategy with furniture is that I refuse any and all deadlines. I tell people I'll make it however they want, but this is my hobby. If they need it done by a deadline, I'm not their guy.

Any and all pressure is self-imposed…..and I still manage plenty of that.


----------



## TheFridge

> I bought some backsaws in the UK yesterday. Just call me wild and crazy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - summerfi


I think you have a problem. Not that it's a bad thing.


----------



## realcowtown_eric

you put dpwn a thicker bottom plate! theerby making the saw usable again. ...or you sold it and bought a new one…..

I was a an estate sale last week, fella waling around with a back saw, entirely missed the mitre box it belonged too! Ain't ignorance bliss! Po buggah!

Eric
Still looking ofr Dorn mitrebox pamplets and add on plates


----------



## planepassion

TheFridge, you say tomayto I say tomato…I say Summerfi doesn't have a backsaw problem. He has a backsaw passion. And he's found a financially viable way to pursue that passion. I admire that. I've purchased a couple of backsaws on ebay UK and love them. I love the history, the brass back, the older vintage. It's just a pleasure to use a quality saw with so much heritage behind it.


----------



## summerfi

The plane load of backsaws was shipped yesterday. I know Fridge was joshing, but I don't care if I have a problem or not, as long as I'm having fun. The way to maximize profits on saws is to sell them on ebay, but it warms my heart to offer 'em to my LJ buddies first. The waiting list is up to 8 now I believe.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

^I hear ya Bob. Funny thing is, if you knock off 10% for ebay fees, then some more for your time and effort….and sometimes dealing with ebay buys, it's not a bad deal just selling to other woodworkers on forums.

Add the fun of seeing others put those tools to work, and your a blessed man.

Btw, my great, great grandfather's panel saw you sharpened for me sees almost daily use in my shop. I love that saw. Perfect for the shop that doesn't have a power miter saw…..and now doesn't want one either.


----------



## summerfi

Glad to hear you're getting some quality work out of that saw Red. Continue using it and it will get dull again one day. So now is the time to start reading up on sharpening technique and starting to practice. ;-)


----------



## Waterlog

The 246 has found a new home in my shop, looking forward to tuning it up. 99% complete missing the medallion but the Disston is original to the box. You can see most of the etch, I want to bring it out but have never done the bluing process before. I am guessing this is from the 'teens. Great condition.


----------



## Tim457

Glad you got it, it looks great. If I'm looking right, I see a sweetheart logo which puts the date from 1920 to 1934 or so.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Cool waterlog. That's a nice one.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

w/ sweetheart saw, too. Very nice, indeed.


----------



## Slyy

Cruising the c-list tonight, saw a place that was selling what they refered to as a "hand saw sharpener" and two different "handsaw toothers" pics were hard to see but did see at least two machines with "Foley" stamped on them, I did email them if anyone who is in the area might be interested.

Totally not saw related but did see this big guy for 1k on the list, wish I had money and space for something like this!









Believe they said 20" bed. Now that's a jointer!


----------



## Tim457

Jake, you need to make space for that aircraft carrier in your shop. It would be wrong not to.


----------



## richardwootton

> Cruising the c-list tonight, saw a place that was selling what they refered to as a "hand saw sharpener" and two different "handsaw toothers" pics were hard to see but did see at least two machines with "Foley" stamped on them, I did email them if anyone who is in the area might be interested.
> 
> Totally not saw related but did see this big guy for 1k on the list, wish I had money and space for something like this!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Believe they said 20" bed. Now that s a jointer!
> 
> - Slyy


Jake there was one like that on CL here about a week or two ago, along with a very large antique radial arm saw, both of which were from an old saw mill. There were other tools in the mix also that I couldn't really see from the pictures. They wanted 250 bucks for the whole lot. By the time I could contact the seller or post it on LJs it was already gone! It made my heart hurt a little bit when I saw "this listing has been deleted by it's author".


----------



## terryR

Oh my…a 20" jointer? Would love to spend this year restoring it! Wife would kill me if I spent a grand on rusty steel. Period.

Bob, interested in selling a Tier2 brass back saw un-restored? I'm flat broke right now, but I'll bet you still have a few left next month? I didn't see any with a busted tote, but that's my kind of vintage saw…


----------



## summerfi

Sure Terry. Some have chipped horns. I'm sure I'll have one for ya.


----------



## summerfi

> Good grief, Bob! 35 backsaws? AND the beginning of your Numbered Series?
> Over the top.
> 
> *You may need a website…*
> 
> - terryR


Ask and ye shall receive, Terry. Introducing Rocky Mountain Saw Works. The site looks good on my computer, but I worry about whether it looks the same on other people's computers. So, feedback is welcome, either related to content or format. I put this together in a couple days, so I'm open to tweaking as needed.


----------



## ToddJB

Bob, the site looks great on my computer. And you did a bang up job. Navigation is easy and clear. I did notice that there are no saws for sale though….... WTH?


----------



## summerfi

Patience, my son…patience.


----------



## putty

Great job on the website Bob,

It looks great on my computer, I saved it as a favorite and will be checking back often.


----------



## ToddJB

You all just read it. Bob just called me his son. I'm in the family. Those Heirlooms are mine! MINE!

I'm just joking about the for sale tab. I am super impressed that the site is as complete as it is if you just started throwing it together since it was brought up the other day.


----------



## putty

I am your witness Todd and will testify for the sum of 1 saw.


----------



## putty

Bob, I love the fact that my old saw made it on your restoration page!!!!


----------



## summerfi

> Those Heirlooms are mine! MINE!
> 
> - ToddJB


Don't even think about it. I keep a 12 ga. full of 00 next to my bed for people like you. ;-)


----------



## JayT

Site looks really good, Bob. Hope you find the time to keep it updated and fresh in addition to your saw building and restoring work.


----------



## ToddJB

> Don t even think about it. I keep a 12 ga. full of 00 next to my bed for people like you. ;-)
> 
> - summerfi


I little buck shot never hurt anybody.


----------



## Slyy

> Don t even think about it. I keep a 12 ga. full of 00 next to my bed for people like you. ;-)
> 
> - summerfi
> 
> I little buck shot never hurt anybody.
> 
> - ToddJB


Todd sounds like the adventurous kind Bob!

Also great work on the site, sure to be a great resource!


----------



## theoldfart

I think Todd deserves rock salt as opposed to double odd buck, don't you?


----------



## Tim457

Site looks great Bob, I agree the navigation is clear and easy and that's usually the hardest part. Content is good too. Missed an e in weathered in the blog title, but that's awfully minor. The "making and restoring handsaws in the vintage tradition" doesn't show up normally on my browser. I think it's one space too far down, because if I do get it to show up, the first line, "Rocky Mountain Saw" in Rocky Mountain Saw Works disappears off the top. Anyway, like I said, minor stuff.


----------



## DanKrager

Looks good on my computer too, Bob. Maybe that beautiful logo should be in the header?

I was given some advice that I'll pass on to you about web site design. The "expert" insisted that every page should have at least one link to your contact page, keeping it as quick and simple as possible to get to the form. On your pages, links to other sites and links to other pages on your own site are "bot magnets" and supposedly elevates your search engine results. The engine designers have made them to favor those that are "well connected" and integrated to other sites. So your social site links help too.

Meta data, the stuff we don't see but the bots look at, is very important for exposure. Be sure each page's meta data comes from the content of the page only. You get seriously dinged if there is not a tight correlation, I'm told. That helps suppress the practice of "bait and switch" search results.

I'm putting a link to your site from mine if that's OK. Encourage others to do the same, and reciprocate selectively. 
http://kragerwoodworking.weebly.com/links.html
DanK


----------



## summerfi

Thanks for that info Dan, and for the link.


----------



## donwilwol

It looks good Bob. I have some issues with formatting on my web site on mobile devices, but the blog isn't usually and issue. Yours looks good on both.


----------



## racerglen

Looks good Bob, favouriited !


----------



## terryR

Bob, Thanks!
And the site looks great in Google Chrome.

It's extra work, but I used to be webmaster for 3sites…you can always download multiple browsers at home and view your pages on them. or offer your tech support team a $5 discount! LOL!


----------



## summerfi

Terry, for 5 bucks, you're hired!


----------



## terryR

^LOL.


----------



## lateralus819

Bob id love a saw like your brass half back without the brass. I love the nose detail like on the bone saws.


----------



## putty

300+ years of Disston's
Full restoration of double eagle and new plate for inchworm by
Rocky Mountain Saw Works


----------



## summerfi

Lat, if you would email me at the address on my website, we'll start a discussion about it. I'm sure we can make it happen if you want.


----------



## lateralus819

Sounds good bob. I actually have a few saws I'd like sharpened/restored.

Ill dispatch an e-mail soon! I'm always looking for a large panel saw for ripping at certain times and i just don't have one that is sharp lol. Angers me.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Bob, the website is outstanding.

I've been holding back from making my own site, but you just may have pushed me over the edge to follow suit. I don't think I could ever leave the fellowship with other woodworkers here on LJs, but I've gotten to the point where I'm very conflicted about posting my blogs and other content here.

Anyway, only things I holding me back is the know-how….and the time it takes to set it up. I've got a good start on the content. We'll see. Thanks for yet more inspiration. However, I'm a little bummed we have to share you with the rest of the interwebz now;-)


----------



## DanKrager

BRK, I can highly recommend Weebly. Makes web site development trivial. They even automatically optimize for mobile.
DanK


----------



## byerbyer

Bob,
The site looks fabulous. Well done.


----------



## summerfi

Thanks for the nice comments folks.

Red - I look at the website as being complimentary to LJ, not a replacement. I'll still be here and just as active as always. In your furniture making business, you really should have a website. If you use a program I'm familiar with, I'll help you get started if you want. If you can make furniture, you can make a website, ;-)

Oh, and since I seem to me moving in the direction of making more stuff for sale and taking on more commission work, I want to announce here that I will be giving a 10% discount to established LJ members. Got to take care of my buddies.


----------



## robertb574

Very Impressed with Bob's site - viewing with Google Chrome


----------



## terryR

One thought on websites…

Don't forget about established selling sites like Etsy. They only allow hand made items and vintage. I've bought a ton off the site, and really want a 'store' of my own for baskets and knives.

no way to offer services, though, like sharpening or restores.


----------



## ToddJB

Are you allowed to link to your own site off of Etsy, though?


----------



## lateralus819

10%? Thats very nice Bob. I have some things in mind I'd like and i'd love to support you. Maybe even sell my LN in the process  .


----------



## Slyy

Wholly with the consensus Bob: fantastic site and glad to see you share with us, the 10% offer is mighty fine of ya. Would love to be in a position to hit you up right now for an open handled DT saw but perhaps soon!!


----------



## Buckethead

Etsy + paypal = crazy high fees.

For woodworkers, selling on etsy might just amount to adding into white noise. There's a ton of simpler woodworking stores there, cutting boards, etc… I haven't looked for furniture stores on etsy. Shipping might become too large a factor.

That said, it's a good starting point. Build a clientele, then direct them to an outside venue once you've established a reputation as trustworthy. (This means sometimes bending over backwards to satisfy people whose intentions might be less than pure).

Todd, I do believe etsy forbids links to outside sales sites.

Slyy… Looking forward to your upcoming saw restoration. That's a sweet little gal you landed.


----------



## donwilwol

My for sale site is just a blog. Its free. I still have paypal fee's but not much anybody can do about that, even without paypal, credit cards have the same fee's. I still sell more than I can find.

If it was woodworking producing a lot it would be different, but for the number of saws you'll produce Bob, a facebook page back to your website, and an instagram site and your website then by word of mouth I'll bet you can't keep up.


----------



## CL810

Another one of Wally's saws enters the world. I needed a rip saw that would fit in my traveling tool chest so Wally and I got to talking and look what found it' sway to my shop.










Looks great and first cut was 10" of full speed ahead dead ass straight in cherry. I didn't hold back or correct for drift at all.

Great work Wally!


----------



## theoldfart

Shouldn't there be a pic of the chest as well? 

Looks like a great saw, I assume rip, ppi?


----------



## richardwootton

Good lookin' saw there buddy!


----------



## summerfi

Lucky you CL. That's a beaut. Congrats to you and Wally.


----------



## CL810

There will be. It will be hung on the lid and I have to make the pieces. I'll post in the tool chest thread whe I get it done. 7 ppi rip.



> Shouldn t there be a pic of the chest as well?
> 
> Looks like a great saw, I assume rip, ppi?
> 
> - theoldfart


----------



## theoldfart

Hey Bob, something just arrived!


----------



## theoldfart

OK, so in October of 2013 I picked up a number of vintage tools









and in June 2014 a few more








As luck would have it the backsaw in the first pic turned out to be an early Biggins and the tote in the second was a Groves.Since I wanted a matching pair and it seemed a shame to throw out the Biggins plate I asked LJ's Summerfi to work a miracle and here's what I got

























The Biggins is filed rip and the Groves is filed xcut

Some action shots to follow.

I can't say enough about Bob's work. These saws will be handed down to my grandchildren when they are old enough and if they show some interest in the craft


----------



## putty

That is a nice pair of saws Kevin, are they 14 inchers?
Bob did a great Job making a new saw from a handle.


----------



## theoldfart

Yea, 14"


----------



## summerfi

Glad they made it Kevin. Now we need to see some work getting done. ;-)

The beech in the Groves handle is really nice. Lots of fleck.


----------



## daddywoofdawg

Your restored saws page should be called gallery unless those are for sale,which is what I thought.if they are for sale then should have prices or better yet click the photo for details maybe a little history (when available) for the saw.I.e this brand or saw is a vintage 18xx or 19xx made by the xxx works in wherever.helps add value to a saw for those noobs to collecting and buying.
JM2C


----------



## chrisstef

Mercy.


----------



## widdle

Wow..never been here…Killer saws goin on…i have a really good neighbor who sells on ebay and sharpens my saws, but he's like the soup nazi..if you say anything wrong, you go back to the end of the line..good to know there is other resources..


----------



## Slyy

Unsurprisingly Bob does it again!!
Picked up this little guy while I Texas Friday. Has another buddy that didn't get his picture taken yet.
Should clean up pretty nicely!


----------



## DanKrager

Kevin, I'd be dripping green goo all over them saws if I didn't already have a matched pair of Tyzaks. 
DanK


----------



## theoldfart

Dan, no goo on the saws! I'm psyched about them. The Biggin is roughly 1852 to 1867, not sure about the Groves tote. The brass back on the Groves BTW is from TGIAG, Bob made the plate.


----------



## summerfi

Nice little Disston Jake. Those shorter backsaws seem to bring high prices. That one is in good shape and will clean up nicely.


----------



## summerfi

daddywoofdawg - Thanks for that feedback. I've clarified what's for sale and what isn't. I've also listed one saw on the "Saws For Sale" tab that I currently have listed on ebay.


----------



## summerfi

Kevin, a little trivia on your saws. The name stamp on the spine of the Biggin looks most like the picture in Simon Barley's book dated at 1850, while the medallion looks most like the one dated 1860, so your saw is somewhere in that neighborhood, as you stated. Simon mentions that Biggin married into the Peace family that made saws in Britain, and later in the U.S. Biggin immigrated to the U.S. about 1861 and worked for Wheeler, Madden & Clemson in Middletown, NY. He died on a journey back to visit relatives in Sheffield in 1871.

The medallion on the Groves appears identical to the one Simon has dated at 1900, so a little bit later.


----------



## lateralus819

I have a biggins but it has all the wrong hardware. Some one used regular nuts/bolts. The handle/plate are gorgeous. Would it be worth getting some proper hardware?

Its a monster. 6 ppi i believe ripper.


----------



## summerfi

Absolutely. You can get screws and blank medallions from ErikF and a few other non-LJ sources.


----------



## terryR

Very impressive, Bob!
jeez, can I just copy and paste that twice a week?


----------



## putty

Slyy, that handle will be beautiful when you refinish it. I bought one recently about in the same shape and it came out real nice.


----------



## Slyy

Wow putty it sure did! Mine has just a few cracks to seal up but otherwise it looks in pretty good shape. It's got a visible stamp on the spine and I can see some etching as well under a bunch of gunk.

The spine woulda been blued originally correct?


----------



## putty

I will defer to the expert… Summerfi. Mine was, I think they were originally brass, blued, or polished steel. with blued the most common and cheapest on the older saws.


----------



## summerfi

The No. 4 had a blued steel back, No. 5 had a brass back, and No. 7 had a bright steel back. The No. 4 was most common. After 1928 they were no longer blued.


----------



## Slyy

This one has a later medallion, certainly post '28.


----------



## donwilwol




----------



## theoldfart

^MMMMMMM good


----------



## duckmilk

Wow! Catching up after a few days. Nice website, Bob! Great job, I'll be checking it from time to time.

Todd makes good target practice.

Nice find Jake. Brautiful thumby Don.


----------



## putty

That's nice Don, nice etch, was there a lot of rust on it?


----------



## JoshWilliams

I am new to buying vintage saws and I'm hooked. I bought a Lawrenceburg Saw Co. #4 backsaw with a "Warranted Superior" meadallion on the handle. Is this a re-handled saw or did Lawrenceburg Saw Co. use those medallions? I know that this is a George H. Bishop saw, which is why I am not sure. Here are some pictures:


----------



## summerfi

Josh - I posted some info for you on your other thread. The saw is a second line brand of G.H. Bishop of Lawrenceburg, IN.


----------



## JoshWilliams

Much obliged.


----------



## DocBailey

I probably have half a dozen first line Geo Bishop saws, and can unequivocally state that three 
have warranted superior medallions and clearly were made that way.










Here's one example:


----------



## chrisstef

Lookin nice Yoda.

Nice little backsaw there too Josh. Great markings on it.


----------



## JoshWilliams

Nice little backsaw there too Josh. Great markings on it.

- chrisstef
[/QUOTE]

Thanks. Can't wait to start using it.


----------



## summerfi

I picked up another backsaw today. The teeth are a bit coarse, and the handle is a little funky. It looks like rosewood though, so maybe I can make a decent user out of it.









.
.
.

Oh yeah…it came with a complete workbench too.


----------



## theoldfart

Bob, thought you were a lefty? Oh, and I really want to see the sharpening vise for that one.


----------



## ToddJB

Never mind the vice. Lets see the split nut driver.


----------



## summerfi

Kevin, the vise should be no problem, but filing a 56 ppi saw might be a little hard on these old eyes.


----------



## richardwootton

If that's all to scale, then that's the biggest freaking backsaw I've ever seen!


----------



## summerfi

You never know Richard, it could be a miter saw. ;-)


----------



## summerfi

Well this has been a busy day for saws. I bought a Stanley 42x for a BIN price, including shipping, of $12.99. I already have 2, so I'll restore this one and then put one of them up for sale.

Then, my British saws arrived….










Not too many surprises. There are more steel backed saws than I thought (9), but some of the saws I couldn't identify in the listing pictures turned out to be pretty nice. The packing was marginal and 2 saw handles were broken in shipment. They can be repaired though. I'll take a little better inventory and post the results later. Then, I'll spend a couple days going through these in detail, deciding which ones to keep, and pricing the ones I want to sell. I'll contact those who have expressed an interest by PM first, and then put the rest up on my website.


----------



## ToddJB

I'm pumped for you and us, Bob. Looks like a lot of fun.


----------



## putty

Wow Bob that is a lot of saws, how were they packaged for shipment?


----------



## chrisstef

For the love of brass backs, Bob!


----------



## summerfi

They were all in one big cardboard box. They were layered between flat newspaper, with 3 or 4 saws lying loosely in each layer. No other padding.

OK, so here's what we've got.

*Five 8 in. dovetail saws*, including
3 open handle, 2 closed handle
1 steel back, 4 brass back
names: Spear & Jackson, Bowdon & Co, J. Eagers, 2 unknown

*Eleven 10 in. dovetail saws*, including
3 open handle, 8 closed handle
6 steel back, 5 brass back
names: (2) Spear & Jackson, H.H. Swan & Sons, H. Disston & Sons, L.W. Lindsley, T.J.Gardner, L. Clarkson & Co., Bowdon & Co., 2 unknown

*Ten 12 in. carcase saws*, including
all closed handles
3 steel back, 7 brass back
names: Spear & Jackson, Lloyd Davies, Taylor Brothers, Footprint, Tyzack Sons & Turner, Sanderson Newbould, Drabble & Sanderson, E. Garlick & Son, BNT (I. Sorby), 1 unknown

*Eight 14 in. sash saws*, including
all closed handle, all brass
names: H. Disston & Sons, Atkin & Sons, Thomas Turner & Co., Fenton & Marsdens, Vickers, Ericson, C. Garlick & Sons, Richard Ibbotson

*Four miscellaneous*, including
2 compass saws - 1 Spear & Jackson, 1 unknown
2 12 in. "table" saws (small open handle hand saw) - 1 Smithson, 1 E. Henry & Co.

Overall, my expectations have been met or exceeded. There are more steel backs than I thought, but some of the saws I couldn't identify in the listing pictures turned out to be real sleepers. The 14" saws, in particular, are all high quality. Heck, the two brass back Disstons alone are worth about half of what I paid for the whole lot. I'm stoked.


----------



## donwilwol

that's the mother load Bob!


----------



## ksSlim

Nice score Bob.
When you weed out your 42x litter, let me know.


----------



## Tim457

KsSlim beat me to it, but I'd take the 42x with my saw order.

That's quite the collection of saws. Fun stuff for a saw guru like you.


----------



## chrisstef

Couple q's Bob, being a saw lover myself …

I wanna know about the whole experience. Cold sweats the morning of delivery? Mind unable to focus? Did you wait around for the delivery? Did you have to sign for it when it came? Where did you open the package? Were you dressed up in anything special? Maybe a cocktail? Any distinct odors? Did you take them all out one by one or lay them all out? If so did you go straight for the brassbacks or did you sprinkle them in for the drama? Whos your favorite?


----------



## summerfi

Stef - No, yes, no, no, maybe, uh huh, please repeat, no, yes, all of them. Did I miss anything?


----------



## Slyy

Haha Bob, bet that was a pleasure laying them all out for the family pic! Excited to see where this goes!


----------



## chrisstef

I feel like i just tried to interview Marshawn Lynch.


----------



## DanKrager

Mr. Tyzack Sr. has killer sharp front teeth. 26 strokes for each cut including the one truncated by the adjacent tenon.










Somebody's gonna ask so I'll answer it here. Why are the wedge slots at 90°? Because in my design the rails are intersecting both the leg and the foot whose grains run at 90° to each other.

I've learned that this stuff, as good as it is, is nearly un-planable. Even the BU low angle planes grab splinters. The grain looks straight from the top, but from the side it undulates randomly. Even tried skew, all the angles, and just gave up. Didn't try to modify the cutting angle and might have if I had a spare blade for the #62. 112 scraper to the rescue. Worked beautifully. 
DanK


----------



## duckmilk

Interesting method. Also, cool vise Dan.


----------



## Buckethead

Just the sketchup is awesome, Dan.


----------



## ErikF

Bob- sweet website and what a haul of saws! When can we expect to see some of these beauties on the website? 


> If that s all to scale, then that s the biggest freaking backsaw I ve ever seen!
> 
> - richardwootton


If that's to scale I would be more impressed with the giant quarter


----------



## ksSlim

Bob, I don't know the maker on the bench and backsaw but I could loan them a few rifflers to work their next handle.

Must have better eyes than some of us. Much over 15-20 per is too much for my eyes.


----------



## summerfi

> Bob- sweet website and what a haul of saws! When can we expect to see some of these beauties on the website?
> 
> - ErikF


I'm working my way down the list of 8 LJ's who have expressed an interest in one of the saws. Currently, #1 has made a selection and #2 has tentatively made a selection. Erik, you're in there at #5. Once I've gone through the list, the remaining saws will be on the website.


----------



## summerfi

One saw maker closing up shop…Adria.

http://adriatools.com/


----------



## putty

one closing, another opening.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

> One saw maker closing up shop…Adria.
> 
> http://adriatools.com/
> 
> - summerfi


Interesting Bob. He must have gotten overwhelmed or something. I inquired about a saw of his once, but like other folks experienced, I couldn't get a response.


----------



## DocBailey

BRK

Twice in two years I tried emailing and phoning him prior to possibly ordering from him.

I have a rule I live by: If the service stinks before the sale, run!

I suspect he "checked out" long before he actually closed up shop.


----------



## daddywoofdawg

summerfi: so that saw must be about 4-5' long?one long stroke to cut 8/4? lol


----------



## Brit

Been busy with work the last few days so I'm just catching up.

Bob - That is one hell of a haul. An Englishman could get quiet tearful seeing all those old saws leave this green and pleasant land, but this Englishman has a great big smile on his face knowing that they've gone to such a good home.

Sorry to hear about Adria. I guess there are too many new kids on the block since he started making quality backsaws. The market is only so big. A lot of online sellers offered his saws, so it will be interesting to see what they replace them with.

Stef - I've got no idea who Marshawn Lynch is, but those questions and Bob's answers were hilarious.


----------



## summerfi

Andy - I'm doing all I can to help the British economy. In fact, I'm just carrying on the traditions of the early 1800's when so many British saws were exported to America. I admit I did have some reservations about taking this bunch of saws from their native land, but the fact is they were headed somewhere, so where better. Thank you for supporting their new life.

Oh and Marshawn Lynch is just a regular guy that doesn't want to get fined.


----------



## ScottStewart

Anyone have suggestions for finding unrestored backsaws? There don't seem to be any local sellers here in the St. Louis area, and ebay seems to have changed over to all of us  selling restored backsaws.

It should be called the Stewart effect. I think about buying something on ebay and prices rise 20%.

Thanks,

Scott


----------



## RPhillips

I'm with ya on that one… I haven't found anywhere to find any old tools around here either. Only stuff I"ve seen was "restored". ...and "restored" adds about $100


----------



## chrisstef

Backsaw prices on the bay are through the roof right now, even for unrestored. I haven't had any luck on there in a while. Theyre also tough to come by in the wild Scott. I wish I had some better answers but alas, I don't.


----------



## summerfi

Scott - PM me your email address. I have several unrestored British backsaws for sale.


----------



## Tim457

Scott, you can't go wrong getting something from Bob, but for a city the size of St Louis there has to be some decent rust hunting spots if you can find them.


----------



## ScottStewart

Pm Sent. If anyone knows of rust hunting spots here, I'm all ears. There is a used tool guy here in Arnold, but all his stuff is badly picked over, even for users. Thanks for the replies


----------



## chrisstef

My brother in law just moved from arnold. Small world.


----------



## putty

Scott, all of the used backsaws are here


----------



## Buckethead

> Pm Sent. If anyone knows of rust hunting spots here, I m all ears. There is a used tool guy here in Arnold, but all his stuff is badly picked over, even for users. Thanks for the replies
> 
> - ScottStewart


I would contact this person: https://stlouis.craigslist.org/tls/4861421976.html


----------



## richardwootton

Those are some big old miter saws! The thumbie looks pretty solid…


----------



## duckmilk

> Scott - PM me your email address. I have several unrestored British backsaws for sale.
> 
> - summerfi


So Bob, If I bought an unrestored saw from you, and it was beyond my means to correct, would you charge me double if I sent it back for you to sharpen?










Here is my current fear. The dreaded cows and calves as Andy describes them. I have sharpened a few hand saws up to 7tpi, but this is an 11 tpi backsaw and horrible to look at. Only half the teeth contact the wood. Frankly, I'm skeered! I'm afraid of messing up the tooth spacing worse than it is. I did buy some new files from LV. I'll give it a go though.


----------



## DanKrager

Duck, give it a go. Worst case is grind the teeth off and start over, but I think with care and patience (oh and a good set of magnifiers, you can pull this off.

BTW, nice haul of lumber for your workbench! Lotta work there buddy.
DanK


----------



## duckmilk

Thanks, Dan. I have one of those circular lights with a 5" magnifier in the center. May have to use it.
Actually, I wish I had a paper template to tape to the side so I don't get too far off. Downloading one to scale may be a challenge.


----------



## putty

Duck, just have him sharpen before he sends it…his prices are real reasonable.


----------



## duckmilk

Question, this will probably take several filing/shaping steps. Do I get the teeth shaped while filing as a rip cut? For the final sharpening, I would like to have a hybrid cut pattern.

Putty, what are you doing this weekend? I have a bunch of beams to cut apart. See pics on the workbench thread.


----------



## putty

I saw them Duck…nice haul. Are they the beech ones?

Busy this weekend, my 7th grade daughter is taking the college entrance ACT test tomorrow ( I hope she can go to college and avoid the drama of high school) then gymnastics, Then car shopping…my wife totaled out her new Chrysler 200 yesterday. The oil has not even been changed yet!!!!

But I am available to help during the week!!


----------



## duckmilk

"and avoid the drama of high school"? What, you guys Einsteins or something?

Most of these are oak, as they all should have been. There are a couple of unidentifiable beams that are not holding up as well as oak, for the intended purpose.

During the week works well. I'm self (un)employed these days and the wife likes to see me keep busy.


----------



## summerfi

Mike, I'm convinced you can sharpen that saw. It just takes knowledge, the right tools, and practice. Have you watched Andy's video? Give her a go, and then if all fails you can use me as a backup.

You can download the spacing templates here. I have to print them off at 106% to make them come out to scale. When shaping the teeth, file them straight across like filing a rip saw, but use the same rake angle that you want to end up with. After they are shaped, give them a light jointing and then file your desired fleam angle.

Putty, sorry to hear about your wife's accident. I hope she wasn't hurt. Once a long time ago my wife was following me in our brand new car on an icy road. I watched her in my rear view mirror as she did a 360 and slammed a guard rail. If the guard rail hadn't been there, she would have gone in a lake.


----------



## duckmilk

Putty, I was just going to edit my post to ask if your wife was OK. Hope so.

Thanks Bob, will do. I have read Andy's blog several times, but not watched the video because of internet download limits. If it is more valuable than the blog, I will, but am not sure how it will work with our IP.

Andy's efforts and presentation are worthy of a prize. A sawlitzer prize?


----------



## summerfi

Mike, if there's any possible way to convince your computer to do it, Andy's video is a must see. The Blogs are great, but nothing beats the visuals for learning to sharpen. And I agree Andy deserves a prize. How about a medal. Instead of gold, silver or bronze, it could be made of Extra Refined Twice Purified London Spring Steel.


----------



## Tim457

Duck, that video is well worth it. Explains everything about reshaping those teeth. There was talk about making a DVD instead, but I think the extra work involved with that meant it didn't happen. If you make a deal with putty he could rip it from youtube and put it on a flash drive for you. Oh and try printing like Bob said then measure the lines on the paper to confirm it printed right. If not print again. Those templates really help me.

Putty accident sucks, hope she's alright. I know it doesn't take much to total a car these days, but they do keep us safer.


----------



## Brit

Thanks for the compliments guys. Just seen that that video has now reached 21,732 views. Who'd have thought it eh! Not me. Since posting that, hardly a day goes by without me receiving one or two notifications that more people have subscribed to my YouTube channel. Can't think why, 'cause that was it folks. LOL. Seriously though, there might be another video this year if time permits.

*Tim* - I had every intention of producing a short run of DVDs. I bought the DVDs and jewel cases, did the artwork, split the footage into chapters and everything, but the blasted software I created the video in just didn't want to know. It should have worked, but I couldn't get it to burn onto the DVD for love nor money. I know what I'm doing when it comes to computers and software, so it wasn't lack of knowledge, I just think the software wasn't mature enough in that area to handle a 10Gb file split across two DVDs.

*Mike* - Terry had a slow internet connection at the time and I bought a 16Gb memory stick, copied the file onto it and shipped it out to him. I'd be happy to do the same for you. The cost would be about £12 for the memory stick + postage. You could either leave the video on the memory stick, or copy it onto your hard drive and use the memory stick for other things. Let me know if you would like me to do this.

Alternatively, I don't know what it is like in the US, but most of our public libraries have free high speed internet, so if that is the case where you live, you just need to sit down at one of the PCs in the library, open a browser, type in the URL or go to Lumberjocks and navigate to Episode 28 of my Saw Talk blog and launch the embedded player there. If your library is not an option, try a Starbucks or a hotel coffee shop.

Regarding the templates I use for filing new teeth, if you let me know the ppi, rake and fleam angles you want, I'd be happy to create one for you in Sketchup and save it as a PDF file and email it to you. You would just need to print it out actual size at the highest quality, cut it out and use some double-sided tape to carefully stick it to the side of the saw plate. Then just file until you can't see any white paper above the black line, but leave the black line intact. Your tooth spacing, gullet depth and rake angle will then be perfect as long as you ensure you're using the correct file for your chosen tooth spacing.




























Where there's a will, there's always a way and I'm happy to help any way I can.


----------



## putty

Thanks everyone, wife is ok, sore shoulder and a broken finger. Tim you are right, it does not take much to total a car now a days. She was monkeying with her GPS and blew through a red light, hit another car spun out and landed on a fire hydrant. Her car had a safety package where it would alert you of cars in your blind spot, steer you back in your lane if you veer too close to the lines, and collision avoidance. They need to design a red light detector.

Summerfi, I bet you were mortified…thank god for guard rails.

Duck, no Einsteins here, She is doing well in her advanced classes, and was invited to take the test as a 7th grader. It's fun to think that she could score high enough, but we are letting her take it for the experience


----------



## putty

Duck, I can try to download it and burn a copy for you…It will only cost you one of those Shiners!


----------



## Tim457

Andy that's a pretty brilliant way to get the spacing and gullets perfect, I haven't seen that type of template before. The ones I've seen are primarily a spacing and fleam template. Do you have a way to share how you make them so we don't have to trouble you for each combination of ppi and rake? And I think you're probably right the problem was the software not being able to handle two discs. I didn't realize you'd gotten that far with it. Could you just make the two discs separately after cutting the video in parts? Not that you need to go to even more work than you have already.


----------



## duckmilk

Wow, Andy, thank you for all your offers. The problem with our internet is it is one of those over-the air things. Some days it works better than others, and if you go over a certain limit, they add a substantial charge to the bill.

I asked my wife if she knew how to save a youtube video to a memory stick, but she didn't know that it could be done, and she works for HP.

Putty, I will see what I can do about downloading the video. If that fails and you can do that, you will be rewarded and additionally, I'll still donate to Andy's charity.

Andy, I measured the teeth 4 times, every time the count came to about 12 1/4 tpi (13+ ppi). Now what do I do, file them off and start over? (That may be the best thing to do, actually)










As far as rake and fleam, whatever would work best for a hybrid filing. The plate is 14" with 3 1/2" under the spine and very straight. There is a Disston & sons etch on the plate that I can't fully make out.

Thanks everyone for the help and suggestions. Now, It's just time to put my big boy britches on


----------



## chrisstef

I wouldnt sweat the tooth count duck. As long as you use the correct size file it shouldnt shift the teeth on you. I like a 5" xxslim for 12-14ppi. If you want to go hybrid filing shoot for 10 degrees rake 17.5 degrees fleam.

If youve got a case of calves an cows they can be tamed. Once you joint the saw for the first time youll notice that some shiners will be bigger than other. Most likely every other one. When you start shaping the teeth youre going to want to bias the pressure toward those larger shiners. You may have to jount it 3 times but thats ok. I find that fine toothed backsaws are easier to file than larger handsaws. We'll get ya through this duck.


----------



## duckmilk

OK, I'm just going to Steph it up and do it. If that fails, I'll file them off, get a pattern from Andy, and start over (or ship it to Steph)

Thanks man!

Oh, posted on another blog (or 2). I got the huge beams cut apart and we unloaded them. About half look good, but will put them through the bandsaw and see what we have.


----------



## Tim457

The really good thing about messed up teeth is you probably won't make them worse. Good news is it's not too hard to push the file a little bit towards one side to start to even them out. Either way it's good practice. And like you said you can always start over.

Wait, where's your blog, duck?


----------



## duckmilk

What, my blog about how much I screw things up? Hmmmm. Actually, that blog may get more responses than SOTS.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Totally stressed this month's tool budget:



















$.99 for the poor fellah, had to bring it home…


----------



## richardwootton

Your wife is gonna be so pissed!


----------



## DanKrager

No medallion…no wonder it's so cheap! LOL

DanK


----------



## bandit571

No blade holder, either. Spent an entire dollar bill on a Disston 10 ( without the "B") and at least it had the holders, and even still had a blade. About the same rust spots, though….


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

"B" stands for Better, right?

I'm thinking I can scrounge a holder somewhere…


----------



## putty

That is a beauty Smitty, Was it hanging outside the flower shop


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Goodwill store find. Just reeks of good will, doesn't it?


----------



## putty

It does, I bet it has the musty smell of a goodwill store

I'm always hitting up the goodwill and charity stores. I make sure no one sees me!!
I'm still kicking myself that I didn't buy an old Dewalt RAS saw for 20 bucks…it still had its original blade. no room!!!


----------



## lateralus819

Is it possible to use or convert a bone/meat saw for wood/metal?

Not sure if the blades are removeable or not.


----------



## Buckethead

RAS's done excite me, I mean other than scaring the dickens out of me.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

This meat saw doesn't have a removable blade…










And I'm officially seeking a blade holder for a Disston 10B, as nothing I have fits without radical surgery.


----------



## bandit571

Thrift store find, $1









No. 10 Disston-Porter, USA

Also in the inventory:
A newer Stanley with a frame made from round bar staock, and stanped "STANLEY" into the top of the frame

Then there is a deep framed "The Parker Line No. 85" of Worcester, MASS. USA

Might have paid a dollar for each….


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

You're a mean one, you are.


----------



## lateralus819

Is that blade suitable for wood Smitty? just curious.

I see a lot of cool meat saws and was wondering if it was possible to modify them as a hack saw of sorts.


----------



## bandit571

Smitty: The end on my Stanley coping saw is the same as what you need. These were made from a length of rod, bent to the shape needed.

Trade?


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Stand by, Bandit, on that offer? Checking my dad's shop junk drawers this coming weekend, will let you know what I find. Much appreciated.


----------



## summerfi

I would never have found this saw if Putty hadn't told me about it. It was mis-categorized in the books section of ebay, and I was the only bidder. This is 14" British brass back by Charles Gray & Sons. I believe it dates to around 1900. Someone had soaked the handle in what appeared to be motor oil. What a pain to deal with. It turned out OK in the end though. Thanks Putty.

*Before*









*After*


----------



## putty

Wow, nice job bringing that wreck back to life. You don't show the back, does it have split nuts? I didn't realize anyone was using split nuts by 1900


----------



## summerfi

The Brits continued using Split nuts on some saws until about 1920. American makers stopped using them by about 1870. Here's the back side.


----------



## ghanson

All I wanted to do was get some advice on purchasing an HVLP setup for some doors and baseboards that I'm going to be painting.

But no, I had to stumble across this thread and now I'm thinking of hitting the flea markets looking for old saws…

Greg


----------



## chrisstef

Dont worry greg, the sickness that flows around here is only slightly contagious.

Bob that saws no good. Motor oil soaked wood should be disposed of properly. Luckily, in my line of work, i can handle such tasks. Ill give you my work address and ill even provide you with a proper manifest.


----------



## Buckethead

What a gorgeous saw, Bob. The brass is in perfect condition. Great find. (Though I know nothing of the value or significance of being a Gray &Sons)


----------



## summerfi

Stef, I'd send you that saw, but then I'd have to charge you by the quart. I think that guy went to my father-in-law's school of tool maintenance. He soaks everything in motor oil to "preserve" it and then paints it red to make it easy to find. Literally, the oil was flowing out of the end grain of that saw handle.


----------



## Tim457

> It turned out OK in the end though.
> - summerfi


Haha, just "OK", sure. You've really got this saw restoration thing down Bob. That looks fantastic.


----------



## chrisstef

Send me gallons if you need to bob.

Howd you deal with the oil? Soak it in rice? Top secret summerfi juju?


----------



## donwilwol

That came out exceptional Bob. I always wondered what crankcase oil would do


----------



## summerfi

Stef - I would do it differently next time around. I didn't initially realize how much oil was in it. I started my usual routine by spraying it with oven cleaner to remove surface oil and grime, but it still felt oily so I repeated the oven cleaner. Then I had to glue on a horn repair with epoxy, but the epoxy wasn't getting as hard as it should. So I put it in the microwave for a few seconds and that's when the oil first started gushing out the end grain. I wiped it off and started sanding, but it still felt oily, so I wiped it down with lacquer thinner before putting on my normal poly finish. When I put it in the sun to dry and the warmth of the sun caused the oil to start gushing again, I knew I was in trouble (I know this sounds funny, but it's all true). So I removed the poly as best I could and then went to a Danish oil type finish. Fight oil with oil. Lastly, I put on some paste wax.

So what will I do if I ever encounter this again? I'll soak the handle in lacquer thinner to get as much oil out as I can, and then go straight to the Danish oil. I considered shellac or some sort of sealer, but I don't know if that would help. Anyone have a better idea?


----------



## DocBailey

*Bob*

Back when I was doing museum quality restorations, we used "whiting" (calcium carbonate) to draw the oil out of wood.
Others may suggest using "whiting" in conjunction with other chemicals, or heat, but those methods can damage the wood.

Note that multiple applications may be necessary before (nearly) all the oil is wicked out of the wood.


----------



## DanKrager

Bob, I'd be inclined to soak an oil soaked piece of wood in the next thinner solvent for a few days. After a daily cold>heat cycle (you saw what that did) move to the next thinner solvent. Another daily cold>heat cycle etc, etc, until you arrive at a solvent that will dry out. The progression might be kerosene, paint thinner, acetone. 
If it wasn't so blamed expensive, brake cleaner fluid evaporates oil directly, but I've no experience doing that on wood. The worst part is that engine oil is not a wood preservative. It often does more harm than good. I think you did good not to try sealing it in. 
DanK
Killer restore, BTW.


----------



## summerfi

Thanks Doc. That's good information. I hope to not have to deal with this again, but I suspect there are quite a few oil lovers out there.

Edit: Thanks Dan for more great information.


----------



## summerfi

*Update on the British Saw Lot*
As you know, I recently bought a lot of 38 saws (34 backsaws, 4 "others") in the UK. After looking them over, I picked out 10 to keep. I then set a price on each saw and posted on here that anyone interested in buying a saw should PM me. The response was good, and it resulted in 11 people potentially wanting saws. I circulated a list of the saws among those 11 people, and 10 saws have been sold. As of tonight, I've posted the remaining 18 saws for sale on my website. As you might expect, the best saws are gone. However, there are still some good saws for sale, including a couple gems I'm surprised no one has grabbed yet. To see the list, go here:

http://www.rmsaws.com/p/saws-for-sale.html

Also, I've purchased a domain name for my website, so the address has changed slightly from a few days ago. If you bookmarked it at that time, you should refresh the bookmark.


----------



## summerfi

This 1840's Disston backsaw sold on ebay today for $1,030.50. A very nice old saw.


----------



## richardwootton

Damn collectors! That is a gorgeous old backsaw, but what warrants a cool grand for a backsaw? That's almost as much as my beloved 71 ford f100 cost!


----------



## putty

That is crazy money for a saw, I wonder who is happier, the seller or buyer?


----------



## Slyy

Bob, in my historic firearm cleaning mode I've run across many oil soaked guns, from intentional cosmoline to "who knows what oil" from hanging on the floor of someone's garage. For those and tool handles I've used a combo of "hot boxing" them with a shop heater and a cardboard box and afterwards soaking them in denatured alcohol. Usually seems to work pretty well. Always seems to dry the wood to just the right amount where it'll really take an oil based finish (like danish oil) very well. Does a good job of taking out a lot of the dark stains from the old oil as well.

Incidentally, gathers some rust today after class, a Disston No 10 coping saw and in the mix, an older adjustable coping saw as well.


----------



## bandit571

No. 10 seems to be a common saw lately.

A little saw work tonight….









Craftsman Mitrebox, with an 18" backsaw on board. Didn't take all that long to cut a board, either. The 22" that came with it is just a might too long….


----------



## Tim457

Good info on getting oil out of wood, I have a piece of walnut that has some kind of oil in it so one of these methods should work. Thanks for the info guys.

Jake, that's a nice rusty collection there. Show us some more of the goods. What bit is that in the brace and what kind of molding plane is that?


----------



## terryR

Awesome job, Bob! Hard to believe that's the same saw, but we know your magic powers!


----------



## Brit

> Stef, I d send you that saw, but then I d have to charge you by the quart. I think that guy went to my father-in-law s school of tool maintenance. He soaks everything in motor oil to "preserve" it and then paints it red to make it easy to find. Literally, the oil was flowing out of the end grain of that saw handle.
> 
> - summerfi


*Bob* - Is a tool painted red easy to find in a shop full of red tools? I admire the fact that you didn't give up on that saw, but kept trying until you found the solution.

*Duckmilk* - Sorry I didn't reply earlier to the question you asked me about the teeth on your saw. I've been busy running workshops the last few days and I've only just seen it. I'm not sure if you've started working on it yet, but looking closely at the teeth in the photo, I would file them off completely and file in new teeth. Although they could be corrected, it is difficult to do when you are just starting out filing saws. Just my opinion.


----------



## duckmilk

Andy, thanks. I haven't started it yet. I have sharpened a few saws and think I will try Stef's suggestion first. If I screw it up worse, I'll probably file them off as you suggested.


----------



## JoshWilliams

Someone at work just gave me this saw. I don't know anything about it, but I was wondering if anyone has any experience in cutting one of these down to be used as a one man saw (this saw is 72") or if it is even worth doing. I'm sure this saw is not worth anything, but I would like to at least be able to use it.


----------



## summerfi

Josh, you might be surprised what your saw is worth. I see similar ones going for a good price on ebay. If you really want a one man crosscut, I'd suggest selling that one and buying a nice one man. I'm afraid if you cut that one down, you'd end up with a bastardized saw that wouldn't be very nice or useful. A nice wide 2-man saw in good condition like that one appears to be would be highly desirable to someone. Does it have a maker's name on it?


----------



## JoshWilliams

> Does it have a maker s name on it?


I'll find out tonight.


----------



## chrisstef

That saw is badass. I think id need to up my manliness to even handle such a beast.


----------



## bandit571

Sold this one awhile back, after doing all the trimming I was going to do









Was a might too big for me….


----------



## Tim457

Josh, watch a few Wranglerstar crosscut saw videos on youtube and you'll be wanting to restore your saw to pristine working shape and learn how to sharpen and use it. Like Bob said that looks to be in way to good of shape to cut down.


----------



## duckmilk

> I think id need to up my manliness to even handle such a beast.
> 
> - chrisstef


As usual 










Josh, look for something on this size, 30" plate. This one I sharpened, no name, no marks, belonged to my dad or granddad, steel bolts, so probably 50's or 60's model, chews through wood. Almost too much to handle, but manageable.


----------



## ToddJB

My British Bob saw showed up today! It think she'll clean up great. Thanks for sharing the love, Bob.


----------



## chrisstef

Nice dovetailer there Todd. I dig the open handle grip.

I finished up an Atkins 7ppi rip saw last night. Filed with 5 degrees rake, no fleam. An aggressive gal.


----------



## Buckethead

I need to quit this thread. I'm getting the saw bug. I used to just search CL for planes, but I've caught myself searching saws lately. In fact, a guy has a collection he's willing to part with for a reasonable amount. I'm sure I saw a couple reasonably early disstons, and a couple smaller loggers crosscut saws.

Stored in a garage or carport where the void between rafters over the top plate and below the roof deck was not closed off. Obviously, not conditioned space. Despite this, rust did not seem out of hand.

*This has been a preemptive tool gloat, aka counting chickens before they hatch.*


----------



## ToddJB

Looks great, Stef. Is she going in the till or for sale?


----------



## chrisstef

Thanks bud. It'll probably end up on the market. It would be a good saw for someone with big hands. The handle is a bit big for my mitts but would be perfect for a guy with a death grip that likes to muscle a saw through some wood.

Whats the ppi on that dovetail saw you got from bob. Any makers marks or just an unlabeled orphan?


----------



## ToddJB

From Bob's spreadsheet: "Bowdon & Co. (brand of W. Tyzack, Sons & Turner)
Description: C.1920. Steel back, 1-7/16" under spine, red rust at toe, 13 ppi rip, straight blade, small dent in back side of spine, brass split nut screws, open beech handle"


----------



## summerfi

Looking forward to seeing you get that one cleaned up Todd. Glad it made it there safely.


----------



## chrisstef

I think you missed the line "stored head down in a bucket". I like it. Its a good looking little saw. 13ppi will challenge the eyeballs. I find myself shaking my head every now and then tryin to avoid going crosseyed when filing those little toofises.

Way to spread the love around Bob.


----------



## terryR

Josh, that beast is worth a fortune if the teeth are intact. About a year ago, I decided to start restoring and sharpening those two man saws. Quickly discovered how it's a lost art, and requires serious skills. I haven't given up my dream, but the cost of huge steel has me trying lil 26" saws first. Good thing, since I suck at filing teeth so far! 

Nice work, Stef!

..."stored head down in a bucket"...Yeah, I hate it when I store stuff in a bucket, and forget that it's outside in the rain!


----------



## Buckethead

Whelp.

I went to see dood.










Some disston badges, the one, cleanest looking saw in the center is warranted superior, and the crosscut saw in best condition is missing nuts, no name.

Before I tell you what I paid, tell me what you would pay. (I don't think I got a steal, but I do think I paid fair value for unrestored CL rust)

The one hidden on the far right is a disston thumb hole. Broken handle, massive teeth.


----------



## ToddJB

I'd easily pay $7 for that whole lot. Ha. No. I'm really bad at this game - $60?


----------



## Brit

< $50 = You suck
$51-$80 = Very good deal
$81-$100 = Nice find
>$101 = They saw you coming dude.


----------



## chrisstef

$55.

You've also got a nice No. 12 there Bucket. That's the one to the left of the WS. In my estimation you scored both a great rip (thumby) and a great xcut saw (No. 12) in that lot. Im not real hip on the logging saws but they look to be in pretty decent shape.


----------



## Buckethead

I paid 80 USD. (75 was the price, but had no change, and paid the 80)

I really wanted a big crosscut saw, (why? Idk… I blame Josh) and I'm thinking I can make my money back on teh bhey of doom, with just a bit of elbow grease and some photography.

Better shots: 








Warranted^









Disston^


















No name^









Disston^









Disston^









Warrented^ (w/etching)

Only the warranted superior has any visible etching, and seems to be the most modern saw.


----------



## JoshWilliams

> I really wanted a big crosscut saw, (why? Idk… I blame Josh)


My bad, but I understand. I didn't really want one until somebody brought one to my office. I was sitting in my back yard last night figuring out whether or not I should cut the tree down.


----------



## jmartel

Interested in making a bunch of your money back on that Disston #12, Bucket? I am going to need a nice crosscut panel saw for my upcoming bed project.


----------



## Brit

> I was sitting in my back yard last night figuring out whether or not I should cut the tree down.
> 
> - Josh Williams


That's hilarious.


----------



## putty

Todd,
I almost chose that saw from Summerfi's list. It should clean up nice.


----------



## ToddJB

Glad you didn't, Putty 

Yeah, I'm pumped about it. I took a few seconds last night to rough up that red rust and it doesn't appear that there is any pitting under it.


----------



## Buckethead

> I really wanted a big crosscut saw, (why? Idk… I blame Josh)
> 
> My bad, but I understand. I didn t really want one until somebody brought one to my office. I was sitting in my back yard last night figuring out whether or not I should cut the tree down.
> 
> - Josh Williams


----------



## Buckethead

> Interested in making a bunch of your money back on that Disston #12, Bucket? I am going to need a nice crosscut panel saw for my upcoming bed project.
> 
> - jmartel


That's my prettiest girl so far, Jmart. I suppose I could let her go though. The best gets are the ones where you sell a few but keep a few.


----------



## Brit

I'm still chuckling over that.


----------



## jmartel

Well, the 12 is now mine. Now I need to pick up a saw file for sharpening and make a saw vise.


----------



## ToddJB

That 12 is a looker. Glad you and Bucket could work something out.


----------



## Tim457

Jmart, congrats on the saw. Lots of options on the saw vice, anything from Paul Seller's version with just a long enough piece of scrap with a kerf cut down the middle and drill a stop before the end up to Andy's fancy version.

I don't remember if Paul's video on making that was on Youtube or the Masterclass site.


----------



## jmartel

It's got a slight bow in the blade (large radius too, no kinks), but I've found quite a bit of information on straightening it online, so that shouldn't be an issue. Doesn't look like there will be an etch recoverable, but that's not a big deal. It's going to be a user. Handle looks to be in good shape. Couple small cracks, but usable for a while. I'll post up when I get it.

Now I need a matching rip saw.


----------



## WoodshopNerd

So I bought this saw a while back, it's an old Simonds, but I can't read the etch where the model number would be. It looks like it's a No. 7 1/2 based on the blade shape and medallion placement. Anybody have any guesses?










I'm planning on trying to sell it if I can since I already have a 5ppi saw in a Disston D8. But if it doesn't sell it'll probably end up back in my till again lol.


----------



## bandit571

Just playing around with a no-name saw









Trying to figure these things out









Not sure if it is the saw, or the saw's operator….


----------



## woodbench

I'm considering trying my hand at making a couple full size handles. Can anyone tell me if Ambrosia Maple would be suitable?


----------



## summerfi

That should work fine, Lloyd. It's best if it's quarter sawn.


----------



## daddywoofdawg

duckmilk and others.
how to save a youtube video to a memory stick


----------



## Brit

*Daddywoofdawg* - That link only allows you to steal audio from a Youtube video, not the video itself. Even if I as the copyright owner of the video give someone permission to download the video, it is still illegal because it breaks the Youtube terms and conditions. Most websites like the link you posted have been served with cease and desist notices by Google. Remember, if it seems too good to be true, it probably is.


----------



## Starfire16

Being a saw newbie, only being infected with the saw bug last fall. Need a little help IDing these two. Found a "Box of saws" (8 saws) on CL a few weeks ago for the high price of $10. Started going through it and found these two in it. I guess I got a good deal after all eh?

















Not sure what model it is but believe it is a Disston from 1917-1940? I wiped the blade with a little mineral sprits and scotch bright pad don't see any etch on it.









The other is a E.C. Atkins & Co. ?


----------



## summerfi

Doug, I think what you have is a Disston D-20. It's similar to the common D-23 but with a skew back blade. They were only made for a couple years in the late 1920's, so a fairly rare saw. More info here:
http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/d23page.html

I'm not sure what model the Atkins is, but there may be an etch hiding under the rust.


----------



## Starfire16

Thanks Bob that helps a lot. I looked for the Atkins on the web and think it maybe a 54, guess I'll wait and see what I find under the rust.


----------



## chrisstef

Pretty good score there starfire. Welcome to it buddy.


----------



## Buckethead

Anyone recognize this type of handle?


----------



## kwigly

Bucket, Its an E C Atkins handle.
Strange bolt pattern for that style Atkins handle, looks like someone had a blank handle and drilled it to suit the holes in a (Disston) sawplate they had.


----------



## bandit571

Two more saws to look over









The short one is a Sheffield "Crown" brass backed Gent's saw, the other is????


----------



## jmartel

Just ordered a couple of files so I can sharpen my dovetail saw and the Disston 12 that should be arriving tomorrow courtesy of Bucket. Add a saw vise and saw till to the long list of stuff to be done.


----------



## ToddJB

What files did you get?


----------



## Buckethead

> Bucket, Its an E C Atkins handle.
> Strange bolt pattern for that style Atkins handle, looks like someone had a blank handle and drilled it to suit the holes in a (Disston) sawplate they had.
> 
> - kwigly


Thanks kwigly! It makes sense that the handle wasn't intended for this saw since the placement of nuts conflicts with the carving.


----------



## jmartel

> What files did you get?
> 
> - ToddJB


I got the Groby ones from Lee Valley since they have free shipping right now. I needed a 12tpi file and a 20tpi needle file.

Also picked up a mill file for jointing since my file is pretty worn. And I got a square peg punch as well.


----------



## Slyy

Bucket -


















Got one very similar. Gonna take some work to repair it, but has plenty of plate left. I've had difficulty pinning it down but seems maybe a No 53 or 54? Only brass hardware Atkins I've ever found in my area.


----------



## chrisstef

Heres a good link to pegging atkins saws: http://www.mvr1.com/atkinssaws2.html


----------



## Buckethead

I saw another CL ad a few hours south of me that had one of those in pretty good condition. Not worth the fiddy or sixddy bucks in fuel to hunt it down tho.


----------



## kwigly

Slyy, Your Atkins looks like a 51 , (going by the 1919 catalog reprinted in "The Handsaw Catalog Collection")

Should be a fun handle fixit project, gluing in some applewood patching and shaping it to suit. 
Look at Bob's repairs for inspiration, and even if you don't reach his high standards you surely can't make your handle look worse !


----------



## chrisstef

Party on wayne.










Party on Garth.


----------



## jmartel

Well, the saw from Bucket came in today.

Slid the handle on for a photo op, but the nuts/bolts weren't put in.


----------



## richardwootton

Jmart, is the the no. 12 handle? I love that shape!


----------



## jmartel

Yes it is. Very comfortable in the hand. It's a 11 point crosscut Disston 12. It's got a bit of a bow in the blade, but I'm going to work on straightening it out. Looks like I might be able to just pour boiling water on it and bend it back. At least that's what I'll try first before resorting to a hammer.


----------



## Buckethead

Glad it made it, Jmart! Looks good on your bench.

I'll be really happy to watch it become useful again. I enjoy the hunt, but lack the passion for the actual restoration.

I'm considering getting rid of anything I've had over a year but still haven't brought into shape.

Edit: is there a fresh chunk missing from the handle? Damage to the package?


----------



## jmartel

No damage. That's the splotch of paint, it just happens to blend in with the benchtop in that photo.


----------



## Buckethead

*whew*


----------



## terryR

Stef, living room looks mighty cozy…Did ya replace the old brass insert with new? got any extra brass?  nice mantle!

Hard to beat a No.12…










After a stupid moment of kickback with the table saw, my No.12 is seeing a lot more use!

Could be my most gorgeous saw?


----------



## theoldfart

Terry, beautiful saw man. I've started using the two 14" back saws Bob did for me and what a joy to use. They cut fast and straight.


----------



## terryR

Thanks, Kevin. Love that No.12!

Trying to learn to carve the wheat pattern since the wife and I decided to get chip carving knives for the Holidays. Only ONE good attempt so far, but was in walnut…surprisingly easy with a hand tool. Never been able to carve very well with a Dremel…


----------



## theoldfart

Terry, I have some Apple drying outside. It's not quarter sawn. If your interested I'll send you a couple of handle size pieces. Let me know. Maybe not today,it's -9 outside !


----------



## chrisstef

That 12 is lookin great Terry. They just sing through lumber.

Wrong thread but yes it was replaced. Im not sure if its real brass or just coated, my guess is coated as it was a product of the 1980's, but ill check for ya.


----------



## terryR

Kevin…YES to Apple any size! I can trade apple blanks for the lathe?

Believe it or not, we have about an inch of snow/ice this AM in Alabama! yuck. high of 19 degrees for the next few days…brrr…

Stef, yeah, probably plated junk from the 80's.


----------



## theoldfart

Terry, I have, as Smitty pointed out, a three sans front tote. Sound doable?


----------



## terryR

Pm coming your way, TOF.
I noticed your missing thingamajigy.


----------



## summerfi

*Terry *- If you're interested in wheat carving, check out Marv Werner's work.
http://woodworkerszone.com/igits/showthread.php?t=17657


----------



## DanKrager

Terry, for cryin' out loud. If you're gonna play, get the terminology right! It's not a thingamjigy, it's a doomaflachi. I checked! LAWL

DanK


----------



## terryR

Ooohh, Thanks, Bob!
Love his knives, too…
Not sure I've ever seen a tote laminated like his? very cool.


----------



## terryR

My humble attempts at chip carving…but I have to start somewhere.










And, the laminated, wheat carved tote I mentioned above…very nice IMO…


----------



## terryR

Sorry, Dan.
I'm a n00B!


----------



## theoldfart

Terry, I'm impressed.


----------



## Tim457

Terry that's not humble at all. I haven't seen as many high end saws as some, but that's better than any I have seen.


----------



## summerfi

Humble my foot. Terry that looks great, you expert you.


----------



## terryR

No, no, no guys, that last image is from the www.

My stuff is very simple, and carved in Basswood! soft as buttah.
really not that hard…my hand seems fitted for those small ovals…wife is better at lines and letters.


----------



## Slyy

I'd say the wheat carving is coming along Terry, nothing to be humble about! Where'd the laminated tote come from? Not seen one like that, took a second to figure out what was going on there. Is that from the link Bob provided?


----------



## Brit

Looks good to me Terry. I tried chip carving three weeks ago. It isn't as easy as it looks is it? I need a lot more practice. Which chip carving knives did you buy? Got any photos?


----------



## jmartel

Looks good, Terry.

I must admit though, I don't personally care for the wheat carving on saw handles. I don't hate it, but if I was making a handle for myself, I would omit that detail.


----------



## chrisstef

... But its a priceless skill if youve got to repair a no. 12 with a busted horn. Upper horn in apple when youre ready terry


----------



## lateralus819

Stellar as always Terry.

You do great work buddy!


----------



## summerfi

> I must admit though, I don t personally care for the wheat carving on saw handles. I don t hate it, but if I was making a handle for myself, I would omit that detail.
> 
> - jmartel


That's my opinion too. I used to think wheat carving was a sign of quality, but now I know it's more accurately a sign of being a relatively newer saw. Though it started in the late 1800's, it reached it's pinnacle in the 40's and 50's and is just as common on cheap saws as on quality ones. I prefer the traditional look of a plain handle. I've been tempted to checker a saw handle though. I think it would look interesting, but it may be too hard on the hand while sawing.


----------



## DanKrager

Terry, you're gonna mess around and get really good at chip carving. And from what I see you might have already gotten there. Nice.

Bob, I do some checkering in various styles and you're right. You don't want to checker anything you push. Pulling seems to be a different story somehow, but the repetition will get you either way eventually.

DanK


----------



## jmartel

Speaking of wheat carvings (sort-of), I straightened out my Disston 12 today. It actually took nothing more than hand pressure and lots of bending and checking.










Tossed the handle on and tested it out on some ply for fun, and it left a surprisingly clean surface and no tearout. I'll still sharpen it after cleaning, but it's good to know.










Regarding handles, this is more along my liking, but I'll want to keep the same general shape as what's on the saw currently.


----------



## terryR

Thanks, guys. I've also noticed that high end modern saws don't include carving. I always thought of the wheat pattern as very old, but Bob is right, I've seen more carving on cheap 40's era saws. Although, it's usually poorly pulled off.

Probably a nice skill to help Stef with a few totes, but I don't plan to add carving to any new totes…of course, I didn't plan on owning so many saws in the first place! LOL. Shaping a tote from coco now…no carving on that one!

Jake, that laminated tote is from here:

https://plus.google.com/u/0/app/basic/photos/111989349558773438340/album/5235518768389523489?authkey=CISw7a3SmNPRwAE

He has a very cool knife to check out as well!

Andy, we bought our knives from mychipcarving.com










They are excellent knives, but a bit pricey IMO. Strong stainless steel, Bubinga handles. I've tried chip carving before with a shop knife…really need the proper tool for this. Or make one that allows you to hold at exactly the same angle during use. if I were to make the knife purchase again, I would just get the 'modified' knife from the site above.

I also made this lil guy from a Hock blade and Bubinga last month…










Not as sweet a cutter as the set we bought. Those full tang knives have a better feel in my hands. Of course, that's a very subjective statement!


----------



## DanKrager

Terry, I agree that those knives you bought have a great feel in the hand. I mean, mine do. You know, this cold weather would be a great time to practice indoors. Haven't done much of that.

I never thought much about the wheat carving on saw handles. I've always thought it was neat and began to notice the difference in quality of cut and quality of design. Just assumed that the carving was associated with better quality…so thanks for the info, Bob.

I'm on the fence about putting cherry handles on my saws now that I have sufficient apple ones. Was going to carve wheat patterns in the cherry ones. Hmmmm …decisions of preference are always hard for me because I know preferences change! 
DanK


----------



## JoshWilliams

Which of these two saws would you guys recommend to re-cut for a rip saw? Also, what ppi would you recommend?


----------



## chrisstef

I think it depends on what youd like to rip with it Josh. Thick stock 1"+ or standard 3/4" stock. What are they toothed at right now? Do you plan on filing the teeth off and reshaping them yourself or will you have them punched?

For an aggressive saw in thicker woods a 4 or 5 point would be good. For something to rip thinner stock a 7 or 8 point would be good. From there you can start to think about rake angles anywhere between 0 and 10 degrees.


----------



## terryR

Dan, I think it's the full-tang that gives such a good feel. solid.

32 degrees in my shop today…feels warmer outside in the 18 degree sunshine! A great day to practice carving in the living room!

Personally, I don't care for cherry handles on anything…my hands are always so dirty I just ruin the cherry no matter the finish. In a dark wood phase now. Will probably change my mind in 5 years.


----------



## DanKrager

Cherry is like brass. You gotta rub on it now and then. (OH shut up Stef!)
DanK


----------



## terryR

^"tool petting"?

Hey, only my LN's are underage!


----------



## DocBailey

True carving on western handsaws goes back to at least the mid-to-late 19th century. The proliferation of "carved" handles (actually crudely stamped or machine carved) in the 40s and 50s is an attempt to mimic the labor-intensive hand carving reserved for the high-end models of manufacturer's saws.

(have a look here, since the site is not letting me upload an image)
http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/12page.html


----------



## planepassion

Dan, what Terry said. I have a Disston D-8 thumby, 4.5 ppi filed rip for course cuts. And a Disston panel saw, 7 ppi, filed rip (converted from XC) for fine cuts. Though Terry's focus on the thickness of the work to be cut should be weighted more heavily in my opinion.


----------



## summerfi

The first few seconds of this video shows carving the wheat pattern in a saw handle at the Disston factory. The second segment shows a machine simultaneously boring all the holes in a saw handle. The third segment shows a saw plate being toothed by a machine about 10X the size of a Foley retoother.

http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675063733_Henry-Disston-and-Sons_workers-stamp-and-punch_manufacture-cast-steel

Here are a couple more examples of Marv Werner's wheat carving.


----------



## terryR

Cool video, Bob, Thanks! I love vintage videos.

Marv's work is just splendid. Sorta changes my mind about trying a wheat pattern on a tote? Done nicely by hand could be a worthy addition. The machine made patterns just don't do it for me…kinda like router made DT's.


----------



## Slyy

Wow way cool video and website Bob! Looked through a few more saw videos they had, glad I wasnt a factory worker.


----------



## Tim457

Definitely Jake. The description in this one says he's using a grinder to smooth the edges of saw blades, but do you guys think that's really what he's doing? It doesn't seem to be involved enough to be taper grinding it either, but he is checking it with what could be a thickness gauge.
http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675063732_Cast-Steel-Factory_workers-press-steel_Henry-Disston-and-Sons_workers-working

Check out the circular saw one. Thatsa some big teeth they're punching.


----------



## Buckethead

> Speaking of wheat carvings (sort-of), I straightened out my Disston 12 today. It actually took nothing more than hand pressure and lots of bending and checking.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tossed the handle on and tested it out on some ply for fun, and it left a surprisingly clean surface and no tearout. I ll still sharpen it after cleaning, but it s good to know.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regarding handles, this is more along my liking, but I ll want to keep the same general shape as what s on the saw currently.
> 
> 
> 
> - jmartel


I'm glad to see that plate looking so straight. You nailed it. I was skeert.


----------



## jmartel

For reference, here's the before photo that I was sent by Bucket.



> Speaking of wheat carvings (sort-of), I straightened out my Disston 12 today. It actually took nothing more than hand pressure and lots of bending and checking.












I'm happy with it. Didn't take long to do, and now it's quite straight.


----------



## Buckethead

Can I buy it back now?


----------



## jmartel

No takebacksies.


----------



## Buckethead




----------



## jmartel

Oh, and the saw is 11 points per inch, not the 14 you thought it looked like. Good thing I recounted before I bought a file to sharpen it.


----------



## Buckethead

I've been miscounting on my saws too. I've been nearsighted my entire life, (which means I actually see well up close) but now the effects of presbyopia (old ass eyes) has negated the near vision benefit I once enjoyed.

Plus, I was never real good at math an stuff.

I'm just going to mark each tooth with a sharpie next time I need to count.


----------



## NinjaAssassin

Old man Bucket, just how old are you?


----------



## Buckethead

I've got great grand kids your age, but I don't look a day over 90


----------



## jmartel

> I ve been miscounting on my saws too. I ve been nearsighted my entire life, (which means I actually see well up close) but now the effects of presbyopia (old ass eyes) has negated the near vision benefit I once enjoyed.
> 
> Plus, I was never real good at math an stuff.
> 
> I m just going to mark each tooth with a sharpie next time I need to count.
> 
> - Buckethead


It's all good. Hell, I can use it as is, as it seems sharp enough right now. I still need to clean up the plate and the handle anyway.

Either way, I'm still happy with the purchase. I thought it was going to be more difficult to straighten than it was.


----------



## Tim457

Nice job straitening that saw jmart. The only problem with doing it by bending is the tensioning might not be right, so it might not stay straight. But since you got it so straight even if it springs back a bit it should be pretty good still.


----------



## jmartel

If I have a problem with it bending back, then I can always resort to the hammer method. I figure this will probably work for now, though.


----------



## richardwootton

Jmart, can you enlighten me to the hammer method?


----------



## jmartel

> Jmart, can you enlighten me to the hammer method?
> 
> - richardwootton


http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/bSmalser/strSawBlade/strSawBlade1.asp


----------



## Waterlog

I am looking for some plans or ideas for a saw box I can make to keep my saws safe during a long distance move. Any ideas or recommendations. Have about ten hand saws, 8 backsaws and 6 Japanese saws to move. I am concerned they are going to rattle around and get dinged up. Does anyone have any cool plans? I am not afraid of dovetailing and other joinery to make it half way decent. Thanks. Lester


----------



## DanKrager

Waterlog, A wooden box may be a good idea, but maybe unnecessary, depending on who's moving it. I'd first wrap the saws in a long strip of saw length + 8" corrugated cardboard, heel to toe and continue rolling until the last saw was covered. Then I'd use shipping tape to secure the wrap and bend the ends together securing them with tape. Now the saws can't harm each other or cut their way out of a box, so just about any STURDY corrugated cardboard box will do. Pack that box so the bundle of saws can't move about and tape it shut.

Now, if you're just wanting to build a saw till, that's another story!  Good luck.
DanK


----------



## ErikF

Hey gents, just put up my website a couple days ago. Still need to add stuff to it but if you guys could check it out and provide some feedback I would appreciate it.
www.floriptoolworks.com


----------



## upchuck

ErikF-
I like the website. Best wishes for your new venture. Do you do any custom work with saw nuts?
chuck


----------



## DanKrager

"Like", Erik. 
DanK


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Dang you Erik. Your site looks better than the one I just made;-)


----------



## summerfi

Website looks great Erik. Very professional. It's exciting to see LJs pursuing their passion.


----------



## terryR

Site looks good on google Chrome, Erik!
Don't forget to add a spot so we can buy your split nuts and other brass goodies!

You do amazing work!!!


----------



## ToddJB

Site looks great on Andriod FireFox. Easy and intuitive to navigate, great pix, handsome purveyor. What more could anyone want?


----------



## ErikF

Thanks gents! I was lucky to find a woodworker in need of a set of saws that is also a very good web designer, none of the design or layout is my handy work. I'll be adding stuff as I have it come available and I'll be sure to add a spot for some parts, Terry. Ideas are always welcome. 


> ErikF-
> I like the website. Best wishes for your new venture. Do you do any custom work with saw nuts?
> chuck
> 
> - upchuck


I can if it's not too complex. Send me a message about what you're looking for.


----------



## Waterlog

Nice website Erik, best of luck to you in this venture. Your saws are very impressive. And also, thank you for your service. Lester


----------



## richardwootton

Great site Erik! I'm personally proud to own two of your saw.


----------



## bandit571

While cleaning a few saws up today, found one that was just a year YOUNGER than I am…









And it is even a Disston!
Something about a "National Hardware Special"???









Any clues out there, seems to be a 1954 model? 









Cuts wickedly fast. Etch is quite readable, plate is dead straight, open top handle is just a tad loose.


----------



## Tim457

So my British saw finally arrived. Delay was on my part, Bob had this whipped into shape in about a day or two I think. But I asked him to delay shipping to ease it's transport into the shop. Bob worked his magic and It's just the right combination of old and new. Sorry for the bad picture, starting a crazy week and a half of work.










Bob was also kind enough to research more history on the maker of the saw and found it was probably made in around 1910 and branded by J. Eagers. http://www.backsaw.net/forum/index.php?threads/j-eagers-derby.705/#post-4067
Of course I had to do a test cut in the first piece of scrap I could grab and it cuts great. Thanks Bob!


----------



## summerfi

Glad the saw made it safely Tim. It's an interesting little saw, and you made a good choice. If anyone wants to see more pictures, go to this link.


----------



## ToddJB

This little fella took $13 from my pocket last night. 14" 12 ppi split nuts, straight, no cracks in handle, no real rust.










J.D. Darlington


----------



## summerfi

Nice find Todd. As you may know, J.D. Darlington was a brand name used by Harvey Peace. That should clean up real nice.


----------



## chrisstef

That's a killer score for 13 bones Todd. Darlington was Harvey Peace's second line of saws. I love the handle on that bad boy along with what remains of the etching. She's gonna clean up mintski. Something about an etch with "Brooklyn" on it that makes it extra badass IMO.

Also really like the brass back Tim. Im sure Bob's got that puppy all dialed in for ya. Looks like a new plate on it?


----------



## ToddJB

Thanks boys. Any idea on age?


----------



## DLK

Yikes! Here are two disturbing photos I saw. There must be a way to add a depth stop without drilling holes through the saw plate. He did say he used a cheap gents saw, but still….


----------



## chrisstef

Todd - http://www.hyperkitten.com/tools/hwpeace/saws/second_saws.php

Id say pre 1890. National saw company bought out Harvey Peace at that time.

Yikes Combo ….


----------



## jmartel

I guess I'll be the one to say that I'd buy a cheapo gents saw and do that with it. I don't have a problem drilling a crappy saw plate.


----------



## ToddJB

Thanks, Stef. Interesting that all of those examples the spine is stamped, as mine is not.


----------



## putty

Tim and Bob, Nice saw, I love the look of a new plate on an old saw.

Todd, Nice Score…I never find deals like that, where did you find it?

DonK, are you a youper?


----------



## Slyy

Tim, excellent saw Bob whipped up for Ya!!!! That's a nice looker and bet user just as much.

Todd - that's an excellent find! Can't wait to see that guy all done up.

Bob is a busy little bee lately. He's done/been doing some strong work for us LJ's!


----------



## ToddJB

Putty, I popped into a huge antique mall last night. Had about 30 minutes, which is not even 1/4 of the time needed to get through this place with any sort of thoroughness, but I decided to start in the back and work my way up. 2nd booth I hit had some standard antique mall tools Stanley brace, couple of wrenches, and a funnel - all very over priced. So when I saw this guy hanging on the wall I anticipated a ridiculous price, but found quite the oposite. My guess is because it's not a common name Disston, Atkins, etc, he thought it wasn't worth anything.


----------



## DLK

*Putty* Its hard to say if I am a yooper, I have only lived the U.P.'s Keewenaw for 25 years and I'm not sure the locals think I would qualify.

*jmartel* Sure, but it goes against the grain, when I find it so hard to find any backsaw around here and there are easier less damaging ways to make a depth stop.


----------



## jmartel

> *jmartel* Sure, but it goes against the grain, when I find it so hard to find any backsaw around here and there are easier less damaging ways to make a depth stop.
> 
> - Combo Prof


I was talking about just walking into Sears, picking up a craftsman branded gents saw for $20, and modifying that. Not modifying an old tool.

Or Harbor freight or wherever else has them cheap.


----------



## DLK

If I only had a Sears or Harbor freight in town. Sigh.


----------



## summerfi

DonK - I've seen quite a few gent's saws with depth stops similar to that. At least one maker even made a saw with depth stop. The owner of the saw in the pictures definitely got carried away with the size of the bolts and wood though. I have a couple gent's saws that my dad added depth stops to for cutting slots for frets on guitars. One is a Marples, the other a Stanley.


----------



## DLK

It would seem to me for example that a couple of pk-magnets epoxied to a wood stop would do the job and not damage the saw plate.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Went awhile before plugging in the tablesaw today…..but I'm not doing a bunch of long rips by hand. That's crazy talk


----------



## summerfi

The Disston No. 11 backsaw came with a factory depth stop.


----------



## putty

DonK,
You are in Gods Country, I used to go up to Michigamme … the evening highlights were to go to the dump and watch black bears pick through the garbage. LOL


----------



## Brit

Some fine work going on here fellas. Carry on.


----------



## DLK

Well *Putty* in the summer and early fall I might agree with you. I've had a black bear in our back yard and I live on 2 acres within he city. While fly-fishing the pilgrim river I've had a wolf cross not more than 8 feet down stream from me. So yes beautiful in the Summer. Lots of wood here too. However December to May its very white here. Finally back up to 9 degrees today, another cold winter. But the good news is that the snow accumulation is only at 222 inches so far, below last years total at this time.

*Bob* thanks for the photo of Distan 11


----------



## Starfire16

_Received two nice Back saws today from summerfi today so I will be busy for a couple days. Thanks again Bob


----------



## bobro

> Just playing around with a no-name saw
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trying to figure these things out
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure if it is the saw, or the saw s operator….
> 
> - bandit571


Looks like you have the proportions of pins to tails backwards from how they usually are. Personally I like that look, it looks medieval. The strongest way though (if you think about the grain and the construction) is when there's a kind of visual balance between pins and tails, which makes the pins thinner, but not too thin.

If you're feeling bad about your dovetail skills, you should look inside some antiques, even museum pieces of impeccable provenance. There you will see that the dovetail used to be a utility joint, not a show joint, and today's standards of flawless dovetails on display are really only a few decades old.

Anyway, back to saws. Is that an Eberle you've got there? Is it true that they stopped making Eberle? That would be a shame, those are excellent saws for little money.


----------



## bandit571

Not sure what saw that is, no etch or any stamped names 0n it, Antique Barn find, for a $1


----------



## richardwootton

Todd, I love me some Harvey Peace action! Jealous of that find.


----------



## summerfi

Glad they made it OK Doug. Be sure to post some pictures when you get them all repaired and cleaned up.


----------



## Brit

You guys are having a pretty bad winter over there in parts aren't you? One of my colleagues has recently gone back to the US and he sent me this email today:

"FYI - It is "bloody cold" today in Stamford!

Reading of -6 degrees Fahrenheit on my vehicle gauge this morning at 6:33 am (see attached). That's -21 degrees Celsius!

Don't want to hear any of you say that it's cold in London!"

I emailed him back as follows:

"I don't know what you're complaining about. We've got two feet of snow here."


----------



## Tugboater78

Awesome site Erik, showed it to the fiance and told her i will be buying a saw from you one day. The ones you have showing. She loved the the way they look and gave the good nod of her head, which means its a good chance she will ok the purchase.

BRK why not rip? Haha Im looking forward to a chance to put the thumbhole through its paces and hopefully i dont abuse it to much.


----------



## Brit

Personally, I love a good long rip. Good honest work with a nice sharp saw. Beats going to the gym any day. I often spare a thought for all the people stuck in traffic on their way to the gym to ride stationary bicycles. LOL.


----------



## bobro

> Personally, I love a good long rip. Good honest work with a nice sharp saw. Beats going to the gym any day. I often spare a thought for all the people stuck in traffic on their way to the gym to ride stationary bicycles. LOL.
> 
> - Brit


+1


----------



## JoshWilliams

> - Tugboater78 Justin - the tugboat woodworker


Justin, are you still on the Mary Artie Brannon? I work for Mt. Vernon Barge.


----------



## Tugboater78

No i am on the Yvonne Conway now, havent been down Mt Vernon in a while, been keeping us up towards wheeling. Good to know another river transportation person is on here Josh. Was on the Mary Artie for 7 years though. Transferred off last year.


----------



## NinjaAssassin

So these two showed up today…



















They look even better in real life!

Thanks Bob. You did an awesome job! I can't wait to put these two to use.


----------



## putty

Wow Billy & Bob,

Those are some nice saws.


----------



## summerfi

Whew! Glad they made it finally Billy. The tracking info said they were supposed to arrive Saturday, so I was starting to worry. I hope they do a great job for you bud.


----------



## Tim457

> Personally, I love a good long rip. Good honest work with a nice sharp saw. Beats going to the gym any day. I often spare a thought for all the people stuck in traffic on their way to the gym to ride stationary bicycles. LOL.
> 
> - Brit


+1. What else do I have these saws for? I knew I had it bad though when I thought nothing of hand sawing up the chunk of hard maple for mallet heads but Paul Sellers uses a bandsaw in his video on it.


----------



## NinjaAssassin

Yeah, the box showed up like the USPS folks beat that crap out of it. I was worried they'd damaged the saws. Luckily, you packed them well enough to thwart any USPS sabotage. They made it straight and unscathed. They sure are pretty. I cut into the waste end of some of that maple I've got sitting there just a little bit and, boy are these things a dream! My wife is going to wake up tomorrow and everything in our house made of wood is going to have dovetails cut into them.


----------



## lateralus819

*"My wife is going to wake up tomorrow and everything in our house made of wood is going to have dovetails cut into them."*

Pure gold.


----------



## OxBaker

I bought this Sandvik 270 for $25. Cleaned up nice and saws amazing.

Before:


















After:


----------



## duckmilk

> I straightened out my Disston 12 today. It actually took nothing more than hand pressure and lots of bending and checking.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - jmartel


jmart, what was the process involving boiling water? Did you do that before hand bending it back to straight? I have one with a very slight bow I would like to correct.


----------



## jmartel

That was just hand pressure. No boiling water. I was going to try boiling water next if that didn't work.


----------



## planepassion

Bending, boiling water…I've never heard of sawsmithing that relied on those methods. I thought that if the sawplate bends with hand pressure then it had lost its tension and needed to be retensioned. I've only used hammer blows per Bob Smalser's technique to remove kinks or bows from my users. It requires practice and can leave dimples in the steel but the saws don't seem to mind when they're cutting wood.


----------



## jmartel

Hand pressure involved basically trying to roll the saw into a complete circle. Not just bending it back and forth until it was straight. It took a while to get it to do that, and a lot of checking. I've made a few test cuts and it has stayed straight, but we will see if it holds up long term. If not, then I'll resort to the hammer method. But, there's more chance of messing it up with the hammers than bending.


----------



## planepassion

That's true jmaretl. But I personally have never had any success with the "complete circle bending method." Maybe the saws I have were more jacked up. I hope yours needs no further adjustments. It's nerve-wracking to hammer for the first time or two.


----------



## DLK

Two saws I bought from Bob Summerfield. I may do a little more polishing. The Dovetail saw needs jointing and sharpening before it will even cut. The Tenon saw cuts O.k. but I think I will still sharpen it. I don't quite know how I lost the etch on the tenon saw and I do apologize for doing so. The odd little rectangle looking scratch at the top of the dovetail handle is actually "R. Rigby" stamped in. This also appears on the other side both again in the handle and also in he brass. I basically followed Andy's methods for saw plate polishing and Bob's method for handle cleaning. I like the fit of the dovetail handle, but not so much the tenon handle. Nor do I like the tenon handles color.
Maybe I'll just make a new one. Overall I am quite pleased to have these saws. Thank you so much Bob for making them available.

*Befor*


















*After*


----------



## putty

Nice cleanup Don!
Can you use the Dovetail saw handle as a template for the Tenon saw? It is a much nicer looking handle.


----------



## summerfi

That's great progress Don. Don't feel bad about the "etch" on the Tyzack. Later saws had those screen printed or painted on, and they come off if you look at them wrong. I agree the Tyzack handle leaves a lot to be desired, and a new handle would be a nice improvement. The S&J looks real nice. They should both be solid using saws once you get them sharpened up.


----------



## DLK

*Putty* Sure A little to small I think for the tenon saw, but I have some other saws I could draw template from and there are alot of templates on the web. The Dovetail handle I would use with three fingers inside and the index finger pointing along the spline. The tenon saw is a little to bing for three fingers and a little to small for four.

Yes *Bob* I agree they will be great saws and they will enhance my hand tool efforts. Big step for me.


----------



## Wally331

Hey everybody, just checking in letting y'all know I'm still alive. Haven't been doing a whole lot of making saws until just recently. 
Started off with three no.12s, one is completely finished. Two at 6ppi and one at 8 ppi. Just about the best looking saws I've made methinks.


















I also finally restore my disston Langdon miter box saw. Handle turned out to be some gorgeous Apple under all the weathering and old finish.

















Just a few more I promise
Another disston no. 8, 8 or 9 ppi









Here's a few no.12's in progress 









And to finish it off a little show and tell. My collection of disston sunken medallion saws. Three no. 7's, a no.8 thumb hole, and a nice no.12. I had a no.16 but I sold it on the bay . Love me my sunken medallions.








Myswell throw in my re handled no.8 as well.









I'll have more posts in the coming days, lots of exciting stuff to tell!


----------



## richardwootton

Glad to see you back around Wally! Those 12s look fantastic by the way. Did you use apple for the one in the first two pictures?


----------



## BigRedKnothead

The eye candy never gets old Wally.


----------



## jmartel

Damn, Wally's been buying up all the old 12's it seems.


----------



## planepassion

Wally you have taken your art to a new level with those handsaws.


----------



## terryR

great stuff, Wally!
Glad I bought a saw from ya BEFORE you got famous!
Keep it up…


----------



## LucasWoods

I am looking for a miter box with the original saw. On a budget.

First how do I tell if it is an original back saw?


----------



## chrisstef

Outside of finding a Disston saw with a "made for Stanley" etch, im not sure how one would determine if the saw is original to the box Lucas. I guess a disston saw with a Langdon stamp on the spine would be a similar case. Im not terribly hip on the miter box stuff but there is some correlation to the Stanley miter box number and the saw length and depth of the plate. Im sure someone around here will bring you up to speed on that shortly.


----------



## DLK

*LucasWoods* Somebody will point you to this forum.


----------



## ksSlim

Lucas, ask that question over on miter box of your dream forum
http://lumberjocks.com/topics/36757


----------



## DLK

> *LucasWoods* Somebody will point you to this forum.
> 
> - Combo Prof





> Lucas, ask that question over on miter box of your dream forum
> http://lumberjocks.com/topics/36757
> 
> - ksSlim


Ta da


----------



## chrisstef

Betcha this guy was pissed:

Backside:









Frontside:


----------



## upchuck

I hate it when I do that.


----------



## richardwootton

That's perfect!


----------



## upchuck

At the age of 5 or 6 when a new front sidewalk was poured for my boyhood home each of my siblings and I left hand and foot prints in the wet concrete. Then my older sister and I signed our names and the next two in line had their names signed for them with a nail just above our prints. I spelled my name C*k*uck. I continue to live with the shame (mis)spelled out for the whole world to see.


----------



## woodbench

Found this little guy at an antique shop, paid $4.00! Can anybody give me info on R.H.Davis?


----------



## lateralus819

I had a nice R.H. Davis backsaw/dovetail. Had a nice open handle too. Felt like good quality.


----------



## summerfi

R. H. Davis was a brand name used by Disston. Nice saw, especially for $4!


----------



## woodbench

Bob,
I would be interested in discussing a complete overall with you, please pm me the details.


----------



## Slyy

Wally, impeccable craftsmanship as always!

"J, C, B, J, DAMNIT…...... B"


----------



## Brit

> Betcha this guy was pissed:
> 
> Backside:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Frontside:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Made me think of this…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - chrisstef


----------



## summerfi

Here are a pair of 10" and 14" Disston brass back saws. These were part of the British saw lot.

*Before*









*After*


----------



## chrisstef

Ya done it again Bob. Stunning.


----------



## donwilwol

Jeez Bob, they look sweet!


----------



## Brit

Superb Bob.


----------



## Tim457

Not much difference really. Hah, just kidding. Those are sweet. How do you get the horn repairs to blend in so perfectly?


----------



## summerfi

> How do you get the horn repairs to blend in so perfectly?
> 
> - Tim


Thanks guys. These saws were pretty beat up, so they're not as perfect as I'd like.

On blending the horn repairs, if you're talking shape, it's just a matter of using rasps to continue the lines and reshape them to what you think they were originally like. If you're talking about the finish, though, that's harder and still a learning process. I use dyes and oil stains, often even between coats of finish, more like a glaze than a stain. It's a challenge because an old handle will have different shades of staining and unstained wood, then you add epoxy to fill in gouges, and add new wood to make repairs. You end up with a hodge-podge of shades and colors that looks pretty awful. When that happens the only thing I know to do is make the whole handle darker to cover up some of the ugliness.


----------



## DanKrager

Shucks. I thought Bob was going to say something magical like "Oh…I just warm up and rub on some good ole whatchamacallit and it grows new horns in two days!"

Awesome upgrade, Bob. Send them to me and I'll see if they do as well as the Tyzacks in this hedge!

DanK

P.S. I'm sure they would put the T's to shame.


----------



## putty

Wow Bob, those are some nice looking brass beauties!!
are they for your personal collection?


----------



## summerfi

> are they for your personal collection?
> 
> - putty


Yes, for right now at least. I do have some new stuff listed for sale on my website though. ;-)


----------



## terryR

Awesome work, Bob!!!


----------



## Slyy

Bob that's some seriously excellent work as always. I wanna be like Bob when I grow up!


----------



## Tugboater78

Some of the saws i own, not sure what most are but maybe you can help me ID. all but 2 need sharpening and/or cleanup.










Top right


























tote has some cracks









Top left dovetail.









Small panel? Saw handle crack.









I forgot one other that DonW sent me some time back when i expressed interest in learning to sharpening.

















Plate is an open book, teeth filed to nothing.


----------



## Slyy

Closer handle pictures would help on most Justin, but the the top full sized looks like a Disston D-8 thumbhole and if it's correct should be filled rip, the one under it looks to be a later D-8, post WWII machined handle design. Not sure on the others, Bob is definitely the back saw guru.


----------



## summerfi

Justin - starting at the bottom:
Probably a Warranted Superior.
Disston D-8 (can see etch)
Disston D-8 thumbhole (can barely see etch)
Probably Warranted Superior
The 2 backsaws look like good saws but can't tell maker from here. Do they have names on the spines?


----------



## Slyy

^ he Cometh.


----------



## Tugboater78

Aye ill get some better pictures up, yes the d8 thumbhole is filed rip and one i do know. I got it off of chrisstef, the one below i got for $10 at a yardsale, looks to be filed xcut. The small one the left just above the t-hole is im sure a noname, but it cuts good even while dull, handle is broke, may attempt to make a new handle at some point. The one above it is a tyzack( also got from Crisstef) immediate right of it has a name i cant read on spine but can read Sheffield underneath filed xcut and pitted. Very bottom is a warranted superior, no etch i can see, but one may show with some cleaning, filed xcut.


----------



## Tugboater78

Pictures added to orig post, one pita i have with this site is posting pictures, long tedious process.


----------



## summerfi

The large backsaw is a Thomas Tillotson & Co. Based on images in my British saw book, it looks to date around 1860. Nice saw that definitely deserves a full restore.

The Tyzack is interesting in that it is a W. TyzacK & Sons, which is earlier than the one you usually see, which is W. Tyzach, Sons & Turner. This one looks to date around 1860 as well.

The last one is a U.S. made Wheeler, Madden & Clemson. Another nice saw that deserves a restoration. If you ever want to sell or trade that one, let me know.


----------



## summerfi

I like what they're doing in the plane thread. Everyone is showing pics of their planes, with each day devoted sequentially to a different plane number. I thought something similar would be great to do here with saws. Instead of going by numbers, though, I thought about maybe having a "Month of Saws" where each day would be saw makers with a different letter of the alphabet. A - Atkins, B - Biggin, etc. That would be 26 days, pretty close to a month, and some letters like "D" could be broken into two days due to the large number of saws. So my questions to the group:
1. Do you like this idea and would you participate?
2. Should we wait until the planes are done or start now?


----------



## Tugboater78

Thanks Bob, is good to learn a bit, hoping to get a chance to attempt restores on them, lots of projects in progress atm though.

Need to get the xcut disston sharpened up soon, have some work for it. The tyzack and tillotson and thumbhole are sharp and ready to use. Dutch tool chest on the docket and plan on using my handtools to make it. Waiting on tax return to be deposited to place an order for some files etc, as well as thier mortise gauge.


----------



## WayneC

The plane guys are only to 9 1/2. They are going to be at it for quite a while.


----------



## Tugboater78

> I like what they re doing in the plane thread. Everyone is showing pics of their planes, with each day devoted sequentially to a different plane number. I thought something similar would be great to do here with saws. Instead of going by numbers, though, I thought about maybe having a "Month of Saws" where each day would be saw makers with a different letter of the alphabet. A - Atkins, B - Biggin, etc. That would be 26 days, pretty close to a month, and some letters like "D" could be broken into two days due to the large number of saws. So my questions to the group:
> 1. Do you like this idea and would you participate?
> 2. Should we wait until the planes are done or start now?
> 
> - summerfi


Sounds good, be nice to see a showcase.


----------



## putty

I like that idea Bob, 
The plane thing will be going on for a while. I don't have too many saws to show but I would love to see others!


----------



## putty

Hey Bob, while you are identifying saws, what is this thing? I bought it at a farm auction many years ago. She is not giving up her secrets. No etch or any other markings at all. I'm assuming that it a lesser quality saw. It is 26" long.

Thanks!


----------



## chrisstef

Ive worked a tillotson saw for bhog a while back and ive got a soft spot for em Tug, theyre awesome. The last pic is a wheeler madden and clemson, another very nice saw. Youve got a nice fleet there buddy.


----------



## summerfi

Hard to say, Putty. A number of different sawmakers used side plates on second line saws. With no identifying marks, you'll probably never know who made that one. It sure is a rusty bugger though. Below is a picture of one made by Disston, but it's slightly different than yours.


----------



## summerfi

OK, hearing mild enthusiasm and no objections to the "Month of Saws" thing, let's proceed starting tomorrow. Post your A-saws tomorrow. I know there are a bunch of Atkins out there and perhaps some others too. I have one other A myself. Tuseday will be B-saws-Bakewell, Beardshaw, Biggin, Bishop, Butcher and the like. I can't think of many C's for Wednesday, but I do have one and perhaps there are others. We'll have to split the D's out due to so many Disstons. Pre-1928 Disstons on Thursday, 1928 and later Disstons on Friday, and any other D's on Saturday. When we get near the end we can post unknown saws under the U's. We'll have a day at the end for LJ-made saws. That should take us through the whole month. Sound like a deal? Start taking those pictures!


----------



## Slyy

Sounds great Bob! If for hand planes, why not saws! Count me as mildly enthusiastic and non objecting.


----------



## Wally331

C as in C. Laudolff Saw works of course  Looking forward to a month of saws!


----------



## BigRedKnothead

^Glad I don't have to wait til "W" to post my wally saws

This thread's gonna explode on "D-day" (Disston).


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Hey, afgeigk. You're nuts if you think I'm going to click any of those links, pal.


----------



## Slyy

Seems legit Smitty, what could be the harm?


----------



## theoldfart

Aw come on Smitty, you know you wanna'! Go ahead click, I double dare ya 

sent his ID to Cricket the assassin, he'll be history shortly.


----------



## GMatheson

Hey Putty, I have a saw just like that one. It looked just like yours when I got it. Cleaned up great and is actually my go to rip saw



















I know nothing about it other than it cost me $5.


----------



## putty

Thanks Greg it is real close, mine is a little different at the base of the handle.
Your saw looks nice, I'll get mine cleaned up

Thanks!!


----------



## terryR

> C as in C. Laudolff Saw works of course
> 
> - Wally331


Hey, I have one of those! LOL.
Hopefully Buck Bros. doesn't count…

Can we handle Disston in 1 day?


----------



## summerfi

No, as I said above, we'll break the D's out into at least 3 days, maybe more depending on how participation goes.


----------



## terryR

how embarrassing…I guess I got caught just briefly reading the thread…LOL.


----------



## putty

That is funny Terry,

Good thing they didn't wear pants back then. That guys little dongle wouldn't clear the zipper


----------



## summerfi

LOL @ Terry. Is that really you?


----------



## Slyy

I knew terry was old but that's some bad arthritis men!


----------



## summerfi

I knew he had a heart of gold and abs of steel, but I didn't know the rest was stone.


----------



## Buckethead

Doppelgänger

(Not to be confused with a dangling participle)


----------



## GMatheson

Here's another one I've picked up but have not restored yet. It might actually need a new plate. I really like the look of these saws.


----------



## Brit

Well it's morning for me at least, so I'll kick off the 'A' group with a W. H. Armitage & Co.


----------



## Tugboater78

What would be a good tpi for a rip tenon saw? Specifically the wheeler madden and clemson. Since it is ready for any configuration and i lack a rip tenon in my "fleet" as chris called it.


----------



## Brit

11tpi (12ppi) is good for a 14" tenon saw.


----------



## terryR

Awesome Armitage, Andy!

Love me some Sheffield saws!

Guess I gotta confess..I asked.the dude that carved the statue of me to shorten my abs, and lengthen my slong!


----------



## Tugboater78

> Awesome Armitage, Andy!
> 
> Love me some Sheffield saws!
> 
> Guess I gotta confess..I asked.the dude that carved the statue of me to shorten my abs, and lengthen my slong!
> 
> 
> 
> - terryR


Poor terry, the lord didnt do much for you did he?


----------



## chrisstef

Couple of refurbed Atkins No. 54's:



















And Terry don't you worry about the length, that lil mushroom stump is as hard as stone.


----------



## summerfi

Good A-morning gents. Here are my A saws.

This Atkins is the first saw I ever owned. It was abandoned by a customer in my Dad's saw shop, and he gave it to me. This was long before I ever developed an interest in saws. It's been my main utility saw for 40+ years now, and it's been rode hard and put away wet. I've used it on everything from fence posts to concrete forms. I really should clean it up and make it look nice again, but just haven't got to it. It has a nice rosewood handle.










This is also an Atkins from my Dad's saw shop. I've used it much less than the first one, and it's in better shape. In fact it's still sharp from when Dad filed it.










This is a British-made Atkin & Sons. As far as I know there's no connection to the U.S. Atkins, but there could be, way back. Atkin & Sons made saws, planes and other tools in Birmingham, England, even though their shop was called Sheffield Works. The name stamp is identical to one dated 1880 in Simon Barley's book. I'll do a complete restore on this saw when I get to it.


----------



## Brit

So I was sitting in a boring meeting when I suddenly remembered I had another 'A'. This time an A. Ashton & Sons, still waiting to be restored. From the smell of it, I'd say it was circa 1919-1925. Correct me if I'm wrong Bob.


----------



## summerfi

Andy, there's an identical etch in Simon's book with a date of 1900. I believe the accepted end date for use of split nuts in the UK was 1920. Based on these, your saw may be a little earlier than you thought. Nice saw.


----------



## Mosquito

Does "Albee" count? lol


----------



## summerfi

That's a nice looking new "vintage" saw Mos.


----------



## Brit

Thanks Bob. I don't think the handle looks that old though do you, what with the thickness of the horns and the lamb's tongue. Who knows?


----------



## Brit

Nice saw Mos, but who the hell is 'Albee'?


----------



## Mosquito

My last name?


----------



## Brit

LOL. Thought so, because I remember you making it. Interestingly though, there was a Fred Houdlet Albee (1876-1945) who made a bone saw for the medical profession. Any relation?


----------



## Mosquito

Not that I'm aware of, but I don't really know many of my grandpa's extended family


----------



## terryR

Mos, that's a gorgeous tool! I'm not sure I could scratch it with use?

My lil Atkins saw…Compass variety with re-shaped Apple tote…circa 1928…










...dull as a grammar teacher!


----------



## putty

Nice A's guys!!
This is my only A. Just a handle…It was hanging by itself in an antique store and I felt sorry for it.


----------



## theoldfart

Putty, my Groves was just a tote. Sent it to Bob and voila instant heirloom.


----------



## bandit571

Not sure if this counts as an "A" saw, but









The top saw is a Pheonix Superior, by Atkins. Might even be a "Ship's saw" ??

The "other saw" is just a D8, no hyphen…


----------



## lateralus819

What is a compass saw even used for?


----------



## summerfi

> What is a compass saw even used for?
> 
> - lateralus819


Same thing as a compass plane-making circles out of wood.


----------



## summerfi

I'm looking forward to tomorrow. There should be a wide variety of B's.


----------



## bandit571

A better view of that Ship's saw?









Pheonix Warranted, by Atkins









Full length shot.


----------



## bandit571

Not sure who made this one for Diamond Edge









has an old Sandvik plate on it, the "OEM" one was in very bad shape









Do have two more needing IDs









This little guy has a 10 stamped into the plate. 









With steel, WS hardware. The other?









Yes, it really did have a red tote, lost all of the white lettering, though









Those are rivets, even though the other side LOOKS like bolts.

Any clues?


----------



## DocBailey

My contribution to "A" day …

My Atkins 067? panel saw. It's 22" long and old enough to have a nib.
I've never been able to find this in a catalog-it doesn't help that Atkins information is scarce.
If anyone has a catalog with this saw in it, I'd love to see it.


----------



## chrisstef

I like that a lot Doc ^


----------



## richardwootton

Doc, I love the etch on your Atkins.


----------



## DocBailey

Thank you gentlemen.


----------



## ToddJB

I think it says "007" - license to saw. Seems appropriate that Doc has this saw.


----------



## chrisstef

I thought the "rex" saws were no. 68's. Preliminary research suggests that at least but i too see the 007. Its a misprint doc better send that one to me for proper disposal.


----------



## Slyy

My contribution to the "A"s includes all Atkins saws. Didn't realize until I pulled them out that I have restored narry a one.


















Love the handle on this one though gonna take some work to repair









And this feller, etch just barely there but oughta come out when I get to cleaning it.


----------



## Slyy

Well postman just came, let me just say (though we all already know this) bob does some great work!

Finally got to reunite my Disston backsaw (all sharp thanks to Bob) and the Bowden & Co dovetail saw a bought from Bob and had him restore it! Can't wait to put either to use!


----------



## putty

Nice Jake,
is that the Disston that you bought at the antique store in TX ?


----------



## Slyy

Is indeed putty, gonna post her in the resto thread later this evening.


----------



## DLK

Bummer Bob, I'm in Florida away from my saws and can't play.


----------



## kwigly

Doc, Your Atkins 067 "Rex" saw is sorta referenced in the 1919 Atkins catalog in "The Handsaw Catalog Collection" reprint, which notes on the page for the Atkins No 66 "Rex" saw that;
"No 67, listed below, is similar to No 66, excepting that it is straight back" 
The 1919 "Rex" saws had the embossed handles, so your wheat carved handle could be earlier.


----------



## summerfi

No worries Don K, you can catch up when you return home.

Tomorrow is B day everyone. Should be a good day with some old and unusual saws.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Can I play? My Atkins saws, each with patched upper horns:



















And on the Epic Thread, this is what's referred to as the money shot:


----------



## putty

Nice money shot Smitty, I hope that was not a piece of your wife's furniture.


----------



## summerfi

Nice saws Smitty! Yeah, that's what happens to my money too….always seems to be getting cut in half.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Putty, she'll never miss it (please don't tell her).

I wasn't exactly channeling my inner Summerfi when I did those horn fixes. Kinda got impatient and rushed the finish. But it's much better than being one horned wonders. Someday I may do some finer sanding and finishing so they blend in better, but for now it's a low priority.


----------



## DocBailey

*Thanks Kwigly*-

I keep meaning to buy that book, if only for the Atkins section


----------



## ToddJB

My submissions with 15 minutes to spare

Both currently unrestored Atkins


----------



## theoldfart

I'm in VT skiing today so my letter B entry will have to wait until this evening. It's a good one!

Edit, Bob can post it if he is so inclined since he's the artist responsible


----------



## terryR

Todd, is that etch on the Big Boy Saw? I still aim to learn sharpening those one o these days…such a useful tool!!!

My only 'B' saw…a Bad Axe 16" Tenon Saw. I bought it when I was building my bench a couple of years ago…but it's so large it hardly gets used!










Adding breadboards with finger joints to my bench now, so this beast finally gets to play…










...hate to scratch some tools, ya know? Tote is TX Mesquite.


----------



## chrisstef

A mishandled Butcher tenon saw awaiting restore:


----------



## summerfi

This is my Beardshaw & Son (British). It's a very old saw and I've never been able to decide whether to restore it or leave it as is.


























Here is my Josiah Bakewell (American). Bakewell immigrated from England in 1841. This saw's medallion shows the initials W, M, B for Wheeler, Madden & Bakewell. Bakewell joined that partnership in 1853 and left in 1860, so we know this saw was made during that period.


























This is a George H. Bishop panel saw that I recently sold.


















Finally, since Kevin is skiing today and suggested I post pictures of his Samuel Biggin saw, here it is.


----------



## GMatheson

Here's another Biggin &Sons someone had left too close to the glue pot sometime over its 160 year life.


----------



## chrisstef




----------



## pastahill

Here are a few pictures of my Baier (German) , don´t know how old but with split nuts. 5 172 tpi




























I don´t know if it count´s as B , unknown maker ( I think German) but with *B*avarian hat stamp


----------



## summerfi

Thanks pastahill. Those are great additions to B-day.


----------



## Buckethead

Strong showing today, gents. Where's the ladies at!?


----------



## ToddJB

> Todd, is that etch on the Big Boy Saw?
> 
> - terryR


It is, yeah. It'll be a pretty saw when she's all cleaned up. I'm not seen that type of tradional handle on one of those big boys before, though.


----------



## terryR

Here's my Geoh Bishop…20"panel saw cleaned and sharpened by Wally…filed cross, and heavily used! This is an awesome light weight tool!










And, probably the best saw in my shop…










A Bridge City Tools Dozuki…about 10" blade, 22" overall. Super freeking sharp, and nicely balanced!










...I hate to see the screen printed etch go…


----------



## richardwootton

Bob, is your site down? I couldn't get it to load just a minute ago.


----------



## kwigly

B for big-un, or Beckett, (Alfred Beckett & Sons, Sheffield), a pit saw
blade is 78", overall length with handle is 98", blade etch is not very clear.


----------



## kwigly

or B is for Bulldog
a selection of cut down "Bulldog" saws (with shaped noses)


----------



## DocBailey

A couple of my Geo Bishop saws

First up a B80-apparently pre-1900, as after 1899 the company relocated to Lawrenceburg, Indiana, from Cincinnati, OH.


----------



## DocBailey

Bishop saws cont'd …

Then we have a "Greyhound"-pretty sure it was their top of the line, and as you can see from the etch, this one's from after the move to Indiana.


----------



## summerfi

> Bob, is your site down? I couldn t get it to load just a minute ago.
> 
> - richardwootton


Seems to be working Richard. Do you have my updated address?
http://www.rmsaws.com/p/about-us.html


----------



## Lucasd2002

> Bob, is your site down? I couldn t get it to load just a minute ago.
> 
> - richardwootton
> 
> Seems to be working Richard. Do you have my updated address?
> http://www.rmsaws.com/p/about-us.html
> 
> - summerfi


Bob-
The link in your signature does not work (for me, at least).


----------



## theoldfart

Bob, thanks for posting the Biggins. Hope you kids noted the fantastic restore job, cuts like a dream (11 pip Rip)


----------



## summerfi

> Bob-
> The link in your signature does not work (for me, at least).
> 
> - Lucasd2002


Hmmm…how about now? Does it not work for anyone else?


----------



## summerfi

> Bob, thanks for posting the Biggins.
> - theoldfart


My pleasure Kevin. Hope you had a good day on the slopes.


----------



## ToddJB

Works for me, Bob.


----------



## terryR

Nice Bishop's, Doc!

Bob, your site continues to impress…


----------



## donwilwol

Holy crap! I was 2 days behind. I got to stop letting work get in the way.


----------



## summerfi

Thanks Terry.
I've enjoyed seeing the wide variety of B saws today. Kwigley, those bulldogs are interesting. I've seen a lot of broken saws, but none that have been shaped like those. Did you do the shaping, or did you find them that way? That's showing imagination and making the best of a bad situation.

Tomorrow will be interesting. I can't think of a lot of C saws. It may be a slow day unless someone has a Cresson collection hiding out there. I have one saw to share, and maybe there will be some surprises.


----------



## summerfi

Don, you have to catch up. I know you have some A's and B's.


----------



## Slyy

Kwigly those bulldog saws are pretty cool. Always enjoy seeing how some craftsman "repaired" his tools to make them work again after some kind of breakage. How do they handle for a cut?


----------



## Buckethead

Tomorrow, the beastly and unloved Craftsman saws get their time to bask in the spotlight.


----------



## WayneC

Catching up… Atkins waiting for restoration as are all of my saws…


----------



## theoldfart

Bob, didn't Waterlog have a Biggins as well?


----------



## theoldfart

Hey Bucket, I happen to like my Crapsman. Filed crosscut, I think it's a rebadged Sandvik.


----------



## summerfi

Oh, forgot about Craftsman. There could be a bunch of those.

Kevin, I know Waterlog has a Groves. Not sure if he has a Biggin too.


----------



## Buckethead

I'm basically a handsaw noob. I've not made a proper effort to educate myself. That said, I've picked up a few saws. I let the more desirables go to new homes where they might receive a better welcome.

I've got a Warranted/Superior saw, ( I had though that to be a brand name, but have since learned it is not) that is filed for ripping, then I have a disston which is filed crosscut. The rip saw is duller, and the crosscut saw is sharper. I ended up using it to rip a piece of spalty oak (I believe it is water oak… Super dense).

I'm not even sure the difference between the filings, but the tooth count is generally lower on a rip saw.

Anywho… I don't have a B or a C saw, but here's a pic of a saw:


----------



## kwigly

I don't actually use those "bulldog" saws, although there's no reason not to,
it's just that saws with broken off tips look so darn sad that I had to grind the ends to something a bit happier.
(so one of them has a "nip" instead of a "nib")


----------



## Buckethead

[email protected] nip!


----------



## Lucasd2002

> Bob-
> The link in your signature does not work (for me, at least).
> 
> - Lucasd2002
> 
> Hmmm…how about now? Does it not work for anyone else?
> 
> - summerfi


Working now. You were missing the "www" before, I think.


----------



## daddywoofdawg

> Here are a pair of 10" and 14" Disston brass back saws. These were part of the British saw lot.
> 
> *Before*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *After*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - summerfi


Did you change the blades or pull the wrong picture? the before is different than the after.


----------



## kwigly

Boynton 
(I didn't blend in that top horn repair quite right)


----------



## summerfi

That's a beautiful saw Kwigley.

Daddywoof - Yes, I put new plates on both saws as part of the restoration. The old plates were nearly used up from many sharpenings.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Oh, Craftsman saws! I can play tomorrow!


----------



## Slyy

Hate to say it but my first saw purchase belongs in "K" day. At least I could play in other days though!


----------



## summerfi

Maybe we should have a prize for whoever plays the most letters. I'm good until the H's I think. Maybe I can find one before we get there.


----------



## WhoMe

Sorry, Late to the party.
Here is my Atkins #65 12ppi









and the really cool etch 









I can do the crapsman saws tomorrow. then Ill have to wait for the D's and then the S's then the w's unless a Warranted Superior is going into the S's


----------



## richardwootton

> Maybe we should have a prize for whoever plays the most letters. I m good until the H s I think. Maybe I can find one before we get there.
> 
> - summerfi


What?!? No Harvey Peace saws?


----------



## summerfi

Oh I have a Peace alright, so the "P's" are covered. And I thought of an "H" I have, so I'm good until the "O's". LOL


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Did LJ wally(Chris…however you spell his last name) say to post his saws on "C" day? If so I have a few.


----------



## terryR

Bob, surely YOU will play the largest hand of saws. 

How do we classify swap saws? Plate by ErikF and tote by a fellow LJ?


----------



## JayT

> Did LJ wally(Chris…however you spell his last name) say to post his saws on "C" day? If so I have a few.
> 
> - BigRedKnothead


I was going to post his on "L" day. Last I recall on what he was thinking for a logo/brand was C. Laudolff.


----------



## summerfi

I think we should have a special day at the end for LJ-made saws. That way we can celebrate all our home grown LJ saw makers with their own special day.

"Bob, surely YOU will play the largest hand of saws. "

Why do you think I suggested a prize? I'm no dummy. LOL


----------



## theoldfart

Bob, just to add to the confusion, I think a mystery day would work as well. I have a few saws that have no identifying marks and yet are unique ( to me at least).

What is the current break out on the Diston epidemic? Multi-day i assume.


----------



## summerfi

Here is my one and only C-saw, and it's currently listed for sale on eBay. This is a British-made L. Clarkson & Co. saw. They were in business from 1948 - 1951.


----------



## summerfi

Kevin, I was thinking we could post unknown saws under U. Also post Warranted Superior saws under W. That doesn't mean we have to post every unknown or WS, or there could be hundreds. But post the special or "different" ones for sure.

Here's my suggestion on the Disstons.
Pre-1928 Disston handsaws on Thursday
Pre-1928 Disston backsaws on Friday
All other Disstons on Saturday
All other D's on Sunday
If you're not sure of the date, just take your best guess and post one of the days. DisstonianInstitute.com is a big help in dating though.

How does that sound?


----------



## bandit571

Not sure WHO made this for Sears, but ( cover yer eyes, Mabel !!)









Full length of 26" 









Wonder IF a wood handle would improve them looks?









But, then I'd have to sand all of that off. 









Between that handle and me…we have four nuts…


----------



## putty

Kevin, I like the mystery day idea. Lets do on a Monday…Mystery Monday

edit: Oops sorry Bob, your post came in while I was typing Mystery saws are on U day


----------



## summerfi

Bandit, that saw is modern improvement personified. That's the kind of saw I would expect to see George Jetson using. Better preserve it like it is 'cause it could be worth a lot of money someday.


----------



## bandit571

Craftsman saws part 2









18" and 22" for the Craftsman Miter saw.

I do happen to have a Crown Gents saw









Round handle is Rosewood, too.


----------



## Brit

Here's my one and only C, at least I'm listing it on C-day because Cowell and Chapman are the names on the saw, even though it was obviously made by W. Tyzack, Sons and Turner. Cowell and Chapman ran a hardware shop in Newcastle upon Tyne in the north of England and this saw commemorates Queen Victoria's Golden Jubilee in 1887. Further details can be found on my blog: http://lumberjocks.com/Brit/blog/28488


----------



## summerfi

A cool saw and a spectacular restoration, Andy.


----------



## donwilwol

CE Jennings. On of my favorite saws.



















Its been cleaned up a little more since these pictures.


----------



## donwilwol

And Boynton (late)










Here is the rest of this story, http://lumberjocks.com/donwilwol/blog/24152


----------



## Brit

Hang on a cotton pickin' minute there Don. I thought we were going by the surname of the maker or the name on the saw. You'll have to post that wonderful Jennings again when we get to the Js. LOL. Nice Boynton too.


----------



## donwilwol

this way I can post it twice!

Sorry, I haven't been following the rules real close. I'll try to behave better in the future


----------



## summerfi

We'll give you a pass this time Don. Is that Jennings a combination saw/square? What is it that you like so much about it?


----------



## donwilwol

Yes its a square to. I'm not sure what I like, it just seems to handle well. Maybe its just because its sharp, you know how much I like sharpening saws.


----------



## kwigly

S H Crane, "railroad" saw. A bit of an oddball saw
S H Crane was an 1880s hardware supply company of NY/Chicago
The etch of a train is nice, but a little hard to see in this picture
(handle may be a replacement)


----------



## Buckethead

Cool saw Kwigly. What is the function of a train saw?


----------



## Slyy

That's a pretty cool etch Kwig! Can make some smoke and a good car behind the engine. In with Bucket: what exactly is a train saw?


----------



## kwigly

Buck, I imagine the train etch on the Crane saw was supposed to represent speed and latest technology, to attract prospective saw buyers. Taylor Bros also used train etches on some of their saws (see pic).
The owner of this particular saw seems to have considered peg teeth the best shape and has its teeth sharpened this way. Maybe it was used for rough cutting or pruning service.


----------



## putty

Probably marketing, think of those pistons and that big connecting rod on those locomotives.
Then you can have an old Aerosmith song in your head when sawing


----------



## summerfi

Re-posting for anyone who may have missed it earlier in the day.



> *Pre-1928 Disston handsaws* on *Thursday* - tomorrow
> 
> *Pre-1928 Disston backsaws* on *Friday*
> 
> All *other Disstons* on *Saturday*
> 
> All *other D's* on *Sunday*
> 
> If you're not sure of the date, just take your best guess and post one of the days. DisstonianInstitute.com is a big help in dating.
> 
> - summerfi


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Not *G* for George, or *B* for Bishop, but *C* for Cincinnati Saw Company, an early Geo. Bishop line around 1898 or so, near as I can tell. Need a 14" yet.


----------



## summerfi

Those are nice Smitty.


----------



## Lucasd2002

I only have 2 saws and neither is particularly nice, but one is a C


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Thanks, Bob. The larger was the first saw I bought on my journey. $1 for the saw, then I shipped it to Mark Herrell who made it truly sing.


----------



## DocBailey

Nice trio of backsaws Smitty


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Doc, thanks. I know you're a Bishop guy, too.


----------



## summerfi

I'll try to keep a running list of the saws presented. Here's what we have so far.

*A*
American Saws
E.C. Atkins
Albee
Atkins/Phoenix Superior

British Saws
W. H. Armitage & Co.
Atkin & Sons
A. Ashton & Sons

*B*
American Saws
Bad Axe
Josiah Bakewell
George H. Bishop
Bridge City Tool Works
bulldogs
E.M. Boynton

British Saws
Bowdon & Co.
S. Biggin & Sons
W. Butcher
Beardshaw & Son
Alfred Beckett & Sons

German Saws
Baier

*C*
American Saws
Craftsman
C.E. Jennings
S H Crane
Cincinnati Saw Company

British Saws
L. Clarkson & Co.
Cowell and Chapman


----------



## Wally331

I've got some catching up to do, will be posting a whole load tomorrow. Been doing a lot of furniture work last few days. Finished up a nice matching bench from a table I built awhile back.


----------



## WhoMe

Here is one of my Craftsman saws. This one is with a wooden handle and a nice etch and a sway back..
Saw








Etch








As you can see by the shiny spots by the teeth, this saw needs some straightening…..

I cannot find the other Craftsman saw with a BIG ugly plastic handle. If I do, Ill post it too. It is not as nice as this one though. I can play tomorrow with the D's but then not till my Symonds…


----------



## Brit

One of my favourite saws. A little 19 1/2" Disston D8. A real workhorse.










A Disston No.5 backsaw.



















A Disston No.7. A work in progress. Lots of cracks in the handle.


----------



## chrisstef

An early 16" disston made for langdon










And the no. 99


----------



## bandit571

My Disston N0.7









I think it was just a dollar









Seemed to clean up ok.









A Before shot of the nib


----------



## summerfi

This is my 1865 No. 7 panel saw.



















This is a No. 7 crosscut.










This is a No. 7 rip that was my wife's great grandfather's.










This is an unrestored No. 7 rip










This is a No. 12 panel saw given to me by my FIL. Supposedly it also belonged to my wife's great grandfather, but I have my doubts due to its nice condition.



















This is my 30" No. 9 with jatoba handle



















This saw belonged to my grandfather. It has a D-8 handle, but the blade is something different because a D-8 is a skewback. So who knows what this really is, but I would sure like to know how many miles of saw kerf this little saw has cut. It has been retired to my tool chest.










This saw was either my dad's or my granddad's, I'm not sure. It has received a similar treatment to the saw above, so it was probably granddad's. The handle is a D-8 thumbhole, but the blade is something else. I took the handle off last night to confirm. There is an extra hole in the plate, and the heel end has been trimmed to fit the D-8 style inset handle. The plate is 26-3/4", indicating it has been trimmed down from a longer saw.










That's it for my old Disston handsaws. Remember, old Disston backsaws tomorrow, newer Disstons on Saturday.


----------



## planepassion

Andy I'm reminded of what a superb job you do restoring your saws. The handle on the No. 5 backsaw just takes my breath away. And just as you do, I like me my panel saws.

Summerfi, you No. 9 with jatoba handle is just a joy to look at.


----------



## Brit

> Remember, old Disston backsaws tomorrow, newer Disstons on Saturday.
> 
> - summerfi


Oh crap, forgot it was backsaws tomorrow and there I was telling Don off. Sorry Bob.


----------



## mohawk

Sorry I am late! First time poster,long time looker. Had computer issues yesterday, still can't get A pic but wanted to post about my C saw that I know nothing about, maybe can get some help here. It is a COLUMBIAN 26" 8 tpi. It has no visible etch and no evidence of there ever being one. Only ID is on the medallion.


----------



## Brit

Welcome Mohawk. The Columbian brand was a second line made by Atkins. Bob (Summerfi) will be able to tell you more about them.


----------



## JayT

D-7 7ppi rip










D-23 5-1/2ppi rip










This was the first one I attempted sharpening on, as well










And my favorite, even if it was one of Disston's second line saws.

9ppi crosscut panel saw with a very cool custom etch


----------



## summerfi

> Oh crap, forgot it was backsaws tomorrow
> - Brit


No worries, Andy. I like looking at nice saws any time.



> Sorry I am late! First time poster,long time looker. Had computer issues yesterday, still can t get A pic but wanted to post about my C saw that I know nothing about, maybe can get some help here. It is a COLUMBIAN 26" 8 tpi. It has no visible etch and no evidence of there ever being one. Only ID is on the medallion.
> 
> - mohawk


Mohawk, if your medallion looks like this one, then it was indeed made by E.C. Atkins at the Sheffield Saw Works in Indianapolis, IN. If it's not like this, then it bears further investigation.


----------



## mohawk

Thanks Bob! Yes that is my medallion. Ask and ye shall receive! You guys are Great.


----------



## ToddJB

No. 9 as found.










I also have a No. 7 and a 12 which apparently I don't have any dedicated pics of:










Third from left is the 7 and 7th from the left is the 12


----------



## jmartel

Here's my No. 12 in the restore line. I'm not sure of the age, but I figured it may be better on the older one. Saw nuts/medallions are out right now. When I finish cleaning up my Stanley #8c, I'll move on to this.


----------



## summerfi

Todd - I'm curious about your No. 9, as that's not what a No. 9 normally looks like. Does it have an etch?

Jmart - the No. 12 changed to a D-12 in 1928, so you're in the correct age bracket.


----------



## jmartel

Good to know, Bob. Eventually I'll probably make a new handle for it, probably for no other reason than I prefer Walnut to everything else. I doubt there's anything left on an etch on it, either. But, it'll make a good user which was all I wanted.


----------



## ToddJB

Indeed:


----------



## summerfi

Oh, OK, that looks like a No. 9, but it's not the same saw you posted before, which looks more like a D-20.


----------



## ToddJB

> No. 9 as found.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - ToddJB


NOPE: That was a warranted superior. Good eye, Bob

Here is the 9:


----------



## summerfi

Thanks Todd. No. 9's were premium saws. They stopped making them in 1918, and they bring a very good price. Gonna be cleaning that one up soon?


----------



## ToddJB

The all need cleaned up, Bob. I need to have a "Month of Restoration" and bust all of these out. Followed by a "Month of Learning to Sharpen".


----------



## DocBailey

Some of my older Disstons, in no particular order …

A pair of 7s









A pair of 12s









A No 9









A D115 panel saw









A No 8 (not D8) panel saw









And finally, a full-size No 8


----------



## summerfi

Some very nice saws there Doc!


----------



## pastahill

Here is my Disston No.112 skewback ca 1903-17



















I think that was the only one which showed up at the german ebay the last 2 years. Disstons are very rar in Germany.


----------



## summerfi

Thanks pastahill. Nice saw, and interesting that Disstons are rare in Germany.


----------



## DocBailey

> Disstons are very rare in Germany.


Anyone else hear that sound?
It's opportunity knocking …

Nice saw, Pasta


----------



## Slyy

Well my contribution to the older Disstons. The 1896 medal design is the oldest of any I own and this is my favorite of them. A D-100, offered at the turn of the century. This particular example was the first Disston I ever found:


















One of the things I love about the handle, was obviously taken care of and I absolutley dig the wear pattern, well loved and well used


----------



## putty

Here are my pre 28's
The first saw was my Great Great Grandfathers . It is a no. 7 it has split nuts and I date it to around 1874. The handle has been replaced and is not correct for the saw. The saw will clean up nice, it has a nice etch. I can't decide to clean it up like it is or make a correct handle for it.










This saw is another no.7 from around 1880. I bought it at a farm auction long ago. It is a massive 4.5 ppi rip it's pretty rusty and has a broken handle.










This is a D115 I bought at the same farm auction. It dates to around 1917. I have cleaned it up and it is a nice saw.


----------



## terryR

Well, if Bob's gonna keep score… 


Here's a late 'A'...Atkins 26", Possible 007 in the etch?










Fairly sharp cross-cut, I used it to cut 1/2 my benchtop to length a while back…but it needs love badly.

http://lumberjocks.com/projects/88125

And for today, A Disston D8, 1871-1875 by the Medallion, 28" Rip at 6.5 ppi…needs restoration.



















and a neglected Disston 10" compass saw, also 1871-1875 by Medallion, with a terrible case of cows/calves…










...probably more later…


----------



## Buckethead

A disston handle is a work of art, in and of itself. Carry on…


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Exactly because Bob is keeping score (the list of what's been posted reminded me), requesting forgiveness to post another B saw: Bridge Tool.










Cool etch, great worker.


----------



## summerfi

Smitty, I've never heard of such a beast as Bridge Tool Co., so it caused me to do a little research. It was a brand name used by Shapleigh Hardware Co. from c.1900-1960. There's something new to learn every day.


----------



## Brit

Just catching up. What a treat! Thanks everyone.


----------



## theoldfart

Not sure how to date these Distons but I'm pretty sure they all pre date 1928


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Slyy, I love the wear on that handle, too. There's one like that in my till, and it's a prize.

Here's another Atkins (sorry) I hadn't seen before:










From J. Bode's tool site, now sold.


----------



## JayT

^ Huh? Looks like a saw tote attached to a reciprocating saw blade.


----------



## Slyy

Hand powered sawzall?


----------



## richardwootton

Well here's my contribution. Thumbhole D8 that Stef sharpened and I rehabbed and I think it falls into the correct timeline.


----------



## summerfi

Nice pattern maker's saw Smitty. The Disston version sells high on ebay. I don't think I've ever seen an Atkins, and that one looks brand new.


----------



## kwigly

Disston 99
STILL languishing in the barrel of saws waiting to be cleaned up


----------



## terryR

A few more old saws…

Disston No.7, 1888-1896, cross cut. I restored this one a few years ago, and even made a new beech tote, but a storm sucked a window outta my shop and left rust spots on it again!










And a much better No.7, 1871-1875 with a sunken medallion and split nuts. this one has been sharpened by Stef, and sees regular use!


----------



## Slyy

Like all this No. 7 love. Guess imma needa find one!


----------



## terryR

Can't put a number to this saw?D8?










26" filed rip at 7ppi, Medallion says 1896-1917. Plate is too rusty to see an etch so far…


----------



## putty

Its nice seeing all of these saws, and not one is painted with a farm scene!


----------



## summerfi

Looks like a D8 Terry.

Strong showing today on the old Disstons. I'm looking forward to seeing the old backsaws tomorrow. The sheer number of Disstons in existence is a testament to what old Henry accomplished. He was clearly the most prolific saw maker the world has ever known. If you've never read his biography, you really should.


----------



## terryR

Thanks for the ID, Bob.

This is having the same positive affect on me as on the HPOYD Thread…getting a chance to re-assess my vintage tools and in the mood for more restorations!

Here's my fav! Gets used more than my table saw…no foolin there!










Disston's great No.12, 26" of sweet crosscutting love! 1896-1917 by Medallion.


----------



## kwigly

Acme 120 (top saw) and Canadian made too.
[can an Acme count as an A saw ?]


----------



## summerfi

Cool Kwigley. We should probably count the Acme as a Disston, but we can definitely count it as a Canadian saw. But then again, there's no rule against bending the rules in this thread. ;-)


----------



## Wally331

Boy there are some gorgeous saws being posted! Hard to keep up with them all!
I've got quite a few days to catch up, so here goes nothing.
Start off with my sole Atkins, not sure the model number, but it's essentially a copy of a d8. It belonged to my best friends grandfather, one of my go to rip saws.








Next up is a belknap bluegrass, walnut handle is broken and the blade is pretty beat up, but I bet it was a decent looking saw back in the day.








Next is a saw that belonged to my grandfather, a warranted superior with a craftsman etch. First saw I ever sharpened and I still reach for it fairly often.


----------



## Wally331

That's my a through c saws, now for my disstons. First I'll start with another family pic of my sunken medallions saws, all from before the turn of the century.








I think there's 2 #8's, 3 #7's, and a no. 12
Next up is a whole slew of no.8's from a wide range of time periods









Another no.7 in pristine condition









And in need of some tlc









Finally my last disston is a lil no.12 panel saw I did as one of my first re handles.









Looking forward to seeing more of everybody's saws, this is pretty dang awesome to see!


----------



## summerfi

Here's today's updated list. That's a lotta saws, and still 22 letters to go. Pre-1928 Disston backsaws tomorrow!

*A*
American Saws-Albee, E.C. Atkins, Atkins/Phoenix Superior

British Saws-Atkin & Sons, W. H. Armitage & Co., A. Ashton & Sons

*B*
American Saws-Bad Axe, Josiah Bakewell, George H. Bishop, Bluegrass, E.M. Boynton, Bridge City Tool Works, Bridge Tool Co., bulldogs

British Saws-Beardshaw & Son, Alfred Beckett & Sons, S. Biggin & Sons, Bowdon & Co., W. Butcher

German Saws-Baier

*C*
American Saws-C.E. Jennings, Cincinnati Saw Company, Columbian Warranted, Craftsman, S H Crane

British Saws-L. Clarkson & Co., Cowell and Chapman

*D*
American Saws-Disston (Nos. 5, 7, 8, 9, 12, 99, 112; D's 8, 23, 100, 115)

Canadian Saws-Disston (Acme 120)


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Hope these meet the pre-28 dictum, but I don't know for sure. Going mostly by birdsmouth and nib.


----------



## WhoMe

Gotta add my N0. 12 to the mix. Unrestored… the handle has a couple of chips but I think it is my favorite Disston because of the shape of the handle and the wheaties on it. 









Anyone know where I can find dating info based on the medallion? Or if someone can chime in as to what this medallion dates this saw at?









And a mystery Disston. I am assuming it is of semi recent vintage based on the handle.









And here is the medallion to the mystery Disstion









Edit: Nevermind, based on the Disston institute Logo pictorial here, the medallions look to be from 1896 to 1917. Which is weird because that mystery Disstion handle seems to be too basic and of a lower quality for that time frame. I think it bears more investigation one of these days. The plate looks too far gone to see if there is an etch.


----------



## planepassion

WhoMe, I"m pretty sure you're dealing with a replacement handle. I have a saw with an etching that dates it to an earlier era than the handle would suggest also.


----------



## pastahill

So, it´s friday and i think i am the first in the back saw row. It must be a Disston No.7 and i think it´s from 1918.




























Bob, what is with the unnamed saws and the warranted superior where we dont know who made them?


----------



## JayT

My early Disston backsaws By the medallions, all are from the 1896-1917 time period

26in miter saw










12in with blued spine, purchased with my 150 miter box










and my favorite Disston, a 10 inch restoration and re-plate project


----------



## summerfi

> Bob, what is with the unnamed saws and the warranted superior where we dont know who made them?
> 
> - pastahill


Let's post the unnamed/unknown saws under "U" and the Warranted Superior saws under "W".


----------



## summerfi

This is a 12" 1874-1875 No. 4 that my son found laying in the road. It's still in the condition it was found in, so a pretty nice saw. The back is still blued. This is one of the last saws Disston used split nut screws on.



















This is a 12" 1896-1917 No. 4.



















This is a 10" No. 5 brass back that is USA made but bought in the UK. (I've read that a lot of Disston No. 5's were made in Canada.)



















This is a 14" No. 5 brass back that was also USA made and bought in the UK.


----------



## terryR

Wow, wow, wow, and wow!


----------



## putty

Those are some beauty's Bob!! 
I cant believe your son found that saw in the road in that condition!


----------



## jmartel

> This is a 12" 1874-1875 No. 4 that my son found laying in the road. It s still in the condition it was found in, so a pretty nice saw. The back is still blued. This is one of the last saws Disston used split nut screws on.
> 
> - summerfi


Oh, Bob, you found my long lost saw! Thank you. I will send you my address so you can give it back to the proper owner.


----------



## summerfi

Hehe…nice try Jeff.


----------



## putty

Here are my Disston backsaws they are both 4's and both have splitnuts.










This Saw is from the early 1840's it is a double eagle. It was made by Henry Disston himself. It was expertly restored by Summerfi you can see the restoration here










This saw was an eBay purchase, I refinished the handle and spine, Summerfi made a new plate for it. It is an inchworm from the early 1870's


----------



## jmartel

Ok, Fine, I guess I can wait until I go to Glacier this summer and swing by to pick it up in person.


----------



## summerfi

Putty, those are a couple of truly nice saws. I believe your great great grandfather's saw is my favorite of all the saws I've worked on.


----------



## putty

Thanks Bob, I'm sure Henry Disston would have been proud of you…probably would have offered you a job too!


----------



## WhoMe

Brad, thank you for that. I never thought about a replacement handle. One of these days I'm going to work on that saw. Unfortunately, the plate is pretty bad so I doubt I'll find an etch. If I do find something I think I'll try my hand at making a handle that would be more type and period correct.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Nice saws again today!

My oldest Disston backsaw Is a 10" #4 with an owner's mark: RISC. Rhode Island State College, from a time in the Univ. of RI's history when they were a trade school.


----------



## chrisstef

My grandfathers 12" #4 Disston backsaw. Without a doubt my most cherished saw.


----------



## ToddJB

My Henry Disston and Son Inch Worm


----------



## planepassion

Wow. A fantastic collection of backsaws on display here today.

History….Smitty-RISC.

Geneology…Christef-Grandpa's backsaw.

Excellent handle workmanship…Putty…

We're getting it all today.


----------



## Brit

We certainly are Brad, but you missed one…

Luckiest person on the planet…Bob. )

That right there is what they call 'destiny'.


----------



## putty

Smitty, that is a nice saw, it looks like there is another stamping under the RISC, what does it say?


----------



## kwigly

Disston Canada, backsaw for the mitre box


----------



## planepassion

Is Bob the guy who found a Disston backsaw in excellent condition on the road? I'm presuming Andy you mean that kind of luck. I still drool over your backsaw collection Andy. Sometimes, when I've had a tough day, I go to your blog and re-read one of your backsaw restorations. Perks me right up.

Honestly, I'm happy for Bob. I remember how excited I've been when I had similar luck. I found this backsaw at a garage sale for $3.00. It isn't "in the middle of the road" good luck, but I'm happy nonetheless.


















Of course my favorite backsaw is my JHNobel. It has a thin plate and the smaller handle suits my hand better.









Although, I took quite a liking to this Spear & Jackson, split nut sash saw.










I filed it hybrid to do both XC and rip cuts. One "tenon" saw for my traveling Dutch tool chest.


----------



## theoldfart

My only Diston back saw, 1918-1930 or so, #4


----------



## Slyy

I'm with Kevin, my only contribution to Disston early backsaw day is my recently restored by me and sharpened by Bon 1896-17 No. 4.


----------



## summerfi

Nice saws again today gents. Thank you all for participating. Tomorrow is 1928 and newer Disston saws of all types. That should be interesting.

Old Henry says he likes the saws he saw today.


----------



## Slyy

Gonna have more than a few examples tomorrow I think!


----------



## Buckethead

Saturday , and even I get to play!


----------



## kwigly

catch-up for the "A" series, an E C Atkins 7ppi 26" saw(no 53 I think, the etch is not legible)
What's interesting is that the saw was from the Ontario factory in Hamilton, which only operaed for 15yrs, so the AAA Atkins medallion reads "Hamilton Ontario" across the bottom, instead of the usual "Indianapolis Ind" (Hamilton factory closed 1930 when Atkins bought Shurly Dietrich and moved into their Galt facilities forming Shurly-Dietrich-Atkins Co)


----------



## summerfi

Thanks kwigly! That's a fine addition! I'm looking forward to more of your Canadian saws as we progress through the alphabet.


----------



## bandit571

I have a short, little 10ppi Warranted Superior crosscut saw. The medallion is recessed into the handle









Doesn't look like it had been cut down. The bolts are steel, though. 









Ain't he cute? Have no idea who made this little guy. Any clues? I think it MIGHT be 14" long, maybe…


----------



## Brit

A couple of 26" Disston D8s, one crosscut, one rip.


----------



## pastahill

Here the last of my Disstons. It was used by my uncle when he started to learn cabinet maker in a company somewhere in the 50th. I found it in my dads garage totally dirty and rusty. It was my first Disston which i restored.


----------



## Tugboater78

My disstons, rounded up some strays

Since i havent researched saw dating yet, may leave that to some of you guys and just focus on cleaning, sharpening and using.
top was a $1 yardsale find, salvaged the brass medallion and nuts. Middle 2 you guys have seen, bottom was my paternal grandfathers, i suspect it is a 1960-70s small miterbox saw makes a really rough cut. I may, at some point give it a better look and find a better use.


----------



## JoshWilliams

Is there a way to determine which model this saw is? I'm assuming it is a Disston (has an 1896-1917 medallion), but my grandfather or great-grandfather replaced the handle at some point. It has a nib, but there is no etch. Thanks in advance.


----------



## Bundoman

Here is a Disston backsaw that I found recently at an estate sale for 5 bucks. I have not messed with saws much at all and have little knowledge about dating, etc. This one came with some free mildew on the handle and is in otherwise original condition, best I can tell. The back still shows some bluing here and there. The handle is very good and rust is very light. Brass bolts and medallion. Did I mention that I like tools but photography….well not so much so please forgive the quick Ipad shots. Now to get better at refurbing saws!


----------



## putty

Josh, by the hole pattern, it looks like a Disston no. 7


----------



## DanKrager

Brit, I am SO enamored by your saw handle finesse. I now have at least four that are apple and as soon as it gets warm enough will be attempting restore. I'm assuming some color has been added. What coloring agent and what color did you use please?

DanK


----------



## summerfi

According to this article, Disston had produced 100,000,000 saws (that's one hundred million!) by 1940. The ultimate number must have been much greater.

The D-15 Victory saw with rosewood handle shown below was my Dad's. It is a post-1928 saw based on the medallion. Inscribed on the blade is Dad's name and the date Nov. 1939. He must have got it when it was fairly new, and considering how narrow the blade is now, it must have seen a lot of use. This is another saw I'd love to know how many miles of kerf it has cut. I've retired this saw to my tool chest along with the one my granddad owned.










This is a No. 68 gent's saw owned by Dad. His initials and city are inscribed on the spine.



















Disston sold out to HK Porter in 1955. Disston saws produced during the Porter era were labeled Disston HKP. This is one such saw, and the quality is not good. The steel is OK, but the handle is atrocious. I've tried to sell this saw on eBay and even at a yard sale, but no one wants it. LOL










I probably shouldn't even show these two saws because they're in my junk saw pile. They would be good for filing practice or cutting into card scrapers, but that's about it. These are a couple of beat up D-23's










This is a Disston compass saw with a homemade handle. Someday I may make a new handle for it just so I have a useable compass saw.










I've sold a bunch of Disston saws. There's no point in showing them all, but I would like to show this 1940's vintage D-8 just because if it's fine condition.


----------



## bandit571

Actually, it was H.K. Porter that bought out Disston. I have a Distton Porter No.10 coping saw

BTW: For over 22 years, made rubber hose at a HK Porter plant in OH. They also sold small locomotives that didn't need a tender. Called "Tank Engines" they did a long of dock work, and in and around factories.

Have three D-8s one from 1947era, and two from the early 50s.  There is a National Hardware Special saw from 1954. 









The Twins. I think I posted a photo of the Hardware Special the other day
All three D-8s are 8ppi.


----------



## DocBailey

I admit to having a saw problem, and rather than post redundant photos of dozens of the ubiquitous Disstons, I thought I'd post of few photos of my NOS saws.

5½ PPI D-23









10 PPI D-23









5½ PPI D-7









10 PPI D-8









A 20" D-8


----------



## summerfi

Those are amazing Doc. Simply amazing.


----------



## DocBailey

*Thanks Bob*-I never set out to be a collector-(I can honestly say that I use 90% of my vintage tools)-but when I come across them, I have to "save" or preserve them

Someone wiser than myself once noted, "everything with a cord eventually ends up in the trash." 
Short of a fatal injury-like a hopelessly cracked casting-that doesn't really apply to handtools.

I'm just a care taker of these (as are we all)

I have a couple of other NOS handsaws, but they'll have to wait for the appropriate letters to come around.


----------



## Brit

Doc - There's nothing else for it, but to award you a huge…


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Not NOS, but fresh-like Disstons I've been fortunate enough to come across (Oh, and I second Brit's motion):

Reposting a D-95 Masterpiece lightweight straight back with rosewood handle, made in 1955 only I recall



























And a 8-pt Disston 'Rancher R-1,' post-Porter acquisition


















Other Disstons include a couple of 'Made by' variety backsaws, each of them 26"x5"

Goodell-Pratt:

















Still marked in grease pencil when it was to be picked up, and how much the sharpening was:









Stanley:

















And from my version of handsaw purgatory









Three more Disstons of a general variety. Older, based on medaliions, but no etches.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Finally (almost forgot), the thumbhole, my first refurb of a handle (reshaped it to bring out what was left of the upper horn):










Not pictured is a 10B model coping saw and a D-68 gents dovetailer just like Bob's version above, same etch too.


----------



## theoldfart

One of my mitre saws badged for Langdon(top one) late 1890's or so








Etch( serif style not used after 1900 or so)









Stamp









Medallion ( 1896-1917)


----------



## planepassion

Andy, what Dan said. Your handle-finishing process is stunning.

Doc, I've never even seen pictures of NOS Disston saws. With the original wrapping in some cases. Thanks for sharing. That was a treat.


----------



## Brit

> Brit, I am SO enamored by your saw handle finesse. I now have at least four that are apple and as soon as it gets warm enough will be attempting restore. I m assuming some color has been added. What coloring agent and what color did you use please?
> 
> DanK
> 
> - Dan Krager


Thanks Dan. I don't add any color in the form of dyes. I did it once and didn't really like the result. Since I get asked about my finishing regime quite often, the following is a detailed account of what I usually do to my saw handles, which to date have either been beech or apple.

1. Sand the handle to P320 grit and thoroughly brush off any dust. The grit I start with depends on the starting condition of the handle, anything from P80 to P180, but all the sanding is done by hand, no power tools.

2. To hold the handle while finishing it, I insert one of those plastic hotel card keys in the kerf (I have a drawer full of the things). If you don't have any, I'm sure you can improvise something else. For most backsaws, they are a nice snug fit in the kerf. They are a little loose for handsaw kerfs, so I put a strip or two of masking tape over the plastic until it is a snug fit. I drill a 1/4" hole through the plastic card key that is left exposed so that I can hang the handle up on a wire coat hanger to dry between coats.

3. I start with Boiled Linseed Oil. I apply a liberal coat with a paper kitchen towel and hang it up for about 20 minutes. I then take it down again and wipe off any excess oil. Hang it up again and leave it to dry for six hours or overnight. Then I apply a second coat of BLO using the same process. (It is just my opinion, but personally I don't hold with the idea of putting the handle in a plastic bag, pouring in the BLO and letting it sit for a while). Lay the paper towel or rag outside until it is dry before disgarding it. BLO soaked rags can spontaneously combust. I know you know this Dan, but others reading this may not.

4. Next comes the oil based varnish. I just use a commonly available (at least here in the UK) clear satin varnish made by Ronseal. I use a teaspoon to measure it and mix it three parts varnish to 1 part pure turpentine in a yoghurt pot. Give it a good stir. 4 teaspoons of finish is more than enough to do any saw handle.










5. Before applying any varnish, the BLO finish should feel bone dry. Run your hand over it and look at your fingers. You shouldn't see or feel any oil. If you do, wait a little longer. To apply the varnish/turps mixture I fold a paper kitchen towel in half and wrap it over the end of my index finger. I dip it in the mixture and work quickly but smoothly over the handle to apply a THIN coat, re-dipping in the varnish as necessary. I start by going around the edges and finish on the faces in the direction of the grain. Make sure all of the surface has been covered, but resist the urge to overwork it. Each coat takes me about 1 minute. Hang it up to dry for 6 hours. At this point it will look like crap when it is wet and it will look like crap when it has dried. I generally put some clingfilm over the yoghurt pot to stop the varnish mix from skinning over.

6. Don't de-nib, just apply another thin coat of the varnish mix in the same way and hang it up to dry. At this point it will look slightly better when wet, but still crap once it has dried. The handle will have dust in the finish and perhaps the odd fly and feel quite rough to the touch. It doesn't matter.

7. When the varnish is bone dry, I lightly rub the surface with some 0000 steel wool. This will remove any flies and dust nibs and the handle will then feel smooth to the touch. Be careful at the corners where the edges meet the faces as it is easy to blow through the thin coats of varnish.

8. Now apply a third and final coat of the varnish mix in the same way as before and hang it up to dry. At this point the handle will look pretty good when wet and pretty good when dry.

9. I then apply a thin coat of wood balsum, which I use in place of clear paste wax. It is the consistency of double cream and I just find it easier to wipe it on the handle and buff it off straight away. I usually apply two coats of this and the job is done. At this point the handle will feel silky smooth, have a lovely satin sheen and be an absolute pleasure to hold.










I know some people will read this and think it sounds like a lot of work, but it really isn't. Once the sanding is complete, the rest of it probably takes no more than 20 minutes spread over three or four days. It is extremely easy to do and anyone can achieve great results. So to answer your question Dan, there is no dye involved, the color just comes from the wood, 2 liberal coats of BLO and 3 thin coats of oil-based clear satin varnish.

There are many other valid ways to finish saw handles and I'm not saying my approach is any better than anyone else's favourite finish. This works for me and I've gone into so much detail simply because Dan asked.

Hope that helps.


----------



## planepassion

My favorite panel saw. A No. 8. Love the handle.









A full-sized No. 7.









My 4.5 ppi D-8 thumby









My No. 12. I have since found a replacement nut/bolt for the missing one.


----------



## Brit

Some great saws on display today. What a treat.


----------



## DanKrager

Thank you, Brit. I could see the apple grain, but my handles just don't seem to have that much color to them. I've got some work to do to work out the blotches and get ready for finishing. Just for fun, I'll take some before and after shots to see if anyone can tell the difference!

DanK


----------



## Slyy

What was today, just regular Disston day?


----------



## summerfi

Today was 1928 and later Disstons of all types.

Tomorrow is the rest of the "D" saw makers.


----------



## summerfi

The past 3 days have been interesting. Thanks to all who showed their Disstons. We've seen saws dating from just a couple years after Disston started a small saw business in 1840 (even one that was probably made by Disston himself) all the way until his heirs sold the busniness in the mid-1950's and some even later. That's a good sampling of the hundreds of millions of saws made by the biggest saw maker in the world. This exhibition of Disston saws wouldn't be complete without noting the change in quality of Disston saws over the decades. When Henry Disston started his business, his aim was to produce the best saws in the world. Arguably, he accomplished that. But as time went on and ownership of the company passed to his heirs, the motivation changed to one of efficiency and profit. The quality of Disston saws changed accordingly. What started out looking like this:










eventually devolved to this:










The knowledge and ability to produce good looking quality saws wasn't lost, it just became subordinate to finding ways to make saws cheaper, remain competitive, and keep sales up. This of course, wasn't unique to Disston. The same story was repeated over and over with other tool makers, and indeed with American manufacturing in general.

With saws, there is hope for the future of quality tool production, because more and more small high-end saw makers are popping up around this and other countries, just like Disston started out in 1840. Hand saws will never again rise to their heyday of the late 1800's due to the popularity of power tools. But if you're in the market for a quality new handsaw, you can still find one, if you can afford it.

Now we move on to other D saw makers and then the rest of the alphabet. Lots more saws to come!


----------



## lateralus819

I dont know what it is, but the look of the top two saws Bob make me tingle with joy lol.

Nothing i LOVE more than a well shaped saw handle. It makes me sick looking at this new so called "saws". Garbage.


----------



## putty

Thanks Bob, that was interesting. I don't know if it was corporate greed or maybe the consumers not wanting to pay for the extra frills?


----------



## DocBailey

*Bob, that's it!*

Following this alphabetical saw-of-the-day exercise, we can have an ugliest saw handle contest.

I have some hideous, slab-handled Disston miter saws which would be strong contenders.

(or, perhaps better yet, an ugliest tool contest)


----------



## Slyy

Well I forgot to post today so I'll have to throw my other disston's out tomorrow after work, hate to break with convention though!


----------



## summerfi

Putty - We could have a long discussion on that, but it's best for another time and place. It's just the "system" that we're all a part of.

Doc - Hmmm, an ugly saw contest. I'll have to think about that one.


----------



## kwigly

Disston K3 Keystone Pacemaker (lower saw), 
from Disston Canada's Toronto factory


----------



## Brit

Here's my saw for 'other D saws' day. A Drabble and Sanderson. 14" backsaw. This saw was in a pretty rough state when I got it, but it came out OK in the end I think. Sometimes you can't (or you just prefer not to) sand out every little blemish and this was one of those times. It has a nice lived in look that shows it has done a lot of work over the years.

What it looked like when I got it…


































...and after restoration…


----------



## kwigly

"Canadian Boy" 
The Disston Canada version of the "American Boy" saw, made for young sawyers and carpenters-in-training
(needing a bit of restoration, but shown for interests sake. And posted a day late as I had to wait for daylight to get a somewhati-legible picture of the etch)


----------



## kwigly

Henry Darby, ( Birmingham c1860)


----------



## Brit

Love the handle on that Darby.


----------



## racerglen

My d-100








Only made from 1961 to 1966









A quote from somewhere went to the effect Henry would be rolling over in his grave if he could see it..
The handle/tote is very uncomfortable, angle of the dangle is off and as was the wood had sharp edges, I reilieved them a wee bit, it's still a POS.


----------



## kwigly

Only 40-something posts to go to *POST No 10,000* on this thread.
I'm predicting a flurry of posts trying to score that exact 10,000th post
Get Ready !


----------



## summerfi

Like Andy, my D-saws are Drabble & Sanderson. They're not as pretty as his though.

First is a 14" steel back, shown before and after.



















Next is a 12" brass back that is not yet restored.


----------



## Slyy

Little late but my post '28 Disstons plus another 96-17 that I forgot to add earlier:
All D-8's for these, two thumbholes with the WWIII era medallion both filled 5 1/2 rip, and the only saws I've sharpened myself. The other is an earlier D-8 with the initials PAO carved on the back. It's very dull and appears to be filed about 8 PPI x-cut, narry an etch among them either, indicative of the poor condition they were in before restoration.


























Bob, was there any number of specific models made by Disston (totals that is) of that 100 million I'd have to imagine a very good percentage were d-8's of some variety!


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## summerfi

I've not seen any statistics on that Jake, but my belief, right or wrong, is that production of the D-8 exceeded any other saw in history.


----------



## summerfi

Good E-day everyone. Let's see all those E-saws today. I only have one. I know there's at least one more out there (hint - Tim).

This is an Ericson 14" brass back that I just completed restoring and listing for sale on my website. It has a new plate filed 12 ppi crosscut, so it is technically a sash saw. Ericson was a brand name used by a British company with the funny name of Onions & Co. O & Co. is stamped on the spine of this saw, though the O is barely visible. Onions & Co. was a Birmingham company operated by Joseph Onions from 1886 - 1905, and the trademark was, you guessed it, an onion.

The first pic is a "before" shot.


----------



## Tim457

Haha, yes not so many E's out there, but here's mine. I'm hopelessly behind on plane and saw pics after a hellish stint at work, but here's the J. Eagers from Derby England that Bob fixed up for me.


----------



## bandit571

My one and only "E" saw









This came as part of a "Nest of Saws" from Eclipse. The backsaw has an etch of block letters "ECLIPSE" 
Two other saws that slipped through









The Coping saw is a No.10 Disston HK Porter
The backsaw simply has a "West Germany" stamped into the spine, on the other side.


----------



## Bigun

Hey guys, looking for first hand saw, besides by dovetail saw, and looking at and trying to negotiate price on a H Disston No 16 panel saw. 9 tpi filed for crosscut. I'm looking for a hand saw to use for smaller crosscuts on bench and I'm tinking that this one is a good size. Is 75 reasonable? blade will have to be cleaned and sharppened. Blade is straight and handle looks good.


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## summerfi

Do you have a picture of the saw Troy? For a saw that needs to be cleaned and sharpened $75 seems on the high side, but it could be reasonable if the saw is in great condition.


----------



## Bigun




----------



## summerfi

The saw does look to be in pretty good condition Troy. To me a realistic price would be closer to $50.


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## Bigun

That was my first offer and they countered at 75 and wouldn't go any lower. just seems to be the size I'm looking for just didn't want to be too far out. I do plan on unsing it and not resale.


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## terryR

Troy, hit up Wally331 for a panel saw. I knabbed a nice one recently already sharp for less than $75.


----------



## Mosquito

I also couldn't find one in that size that I liked, so I made my own. 18" 9tpi rip. I have another plate filed 12ppi crosscut that I'll make a matching 18" in crosscut with. Then they'll live in my tool chest.


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## Bigun

Nice job Mosquito, I wish I could build my own. Pretty sure I could take care of the handle but defitently not the blade. Does anyone make a kit for this type of saw? Seen some for back saws and maybe they would be fine too. Really not sure what I really could use the most.


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## summerfi

Troy, TGIAG sells new panel saw plates.
http://tgiag.com/sawplate.html


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## Mosquito

That's where I get my saw plates from (TGIAG). They come as a blank with punched teeth. Still need setting and sharpening, and shaping of the plate itself.


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## kwigly

E saw
An odd Moses Eadon with brass reinforcing plates on the handle. Plates look factory made, with nice beveled edges, but handle and plates may be replacements on this nearly worn out blade.


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## kwigly

another E
an "eatonia" from Eatons (Canadian department store), with its E medallion. (the "Eatonia" etch is partly visible. Eatons also marketed "Edge Rite" tools/saws for a while, if I recollect correctly)


----------



## chrisstef

Heres my Moses Eadon 14" back saw. A good hefty saw.


----------



## terryR

And my Moses Eadon…12" that need restoration.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

I suppose LJ ErikF's saws could be today or tomorrow….but I might be working so here's my dovetail saw I got from Erik.

Bocote and brass:









And here's the beastmaster and DT saw I made from a kits from Erik:


















!


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## summerfi

The list is growing! Here's the update through E.

*A*
American Saws-Albee, E.C. Atkins, Atkins/Phoenix Superior

British Saws-Atkin & Sons, W. H. Armitage & Co., A. Ashton & Sons

Canadian Saws-E.C. Atkins

*B*
American Saws-Bad Axe, Josiah Bakewell, George H. Bishop, Bluegrass, E.M. Boynton, Bridge City Tool Works, Bridge Tool Co., bulldogs

British Saws-Beardshaw & Son, Alfred Beckett & Sons, S. Biggin & Sons, Bowdon & Co., W. Butcher

German Saws-Baier

*C*
American Saws-C.E. Jennings, Cincinnati Saw Company, Columbian Warranted, Craftsman, S H Crane

British Saws-L. Clarkson & Co., Cowell and Chapman

*D*
American Saws-Disston (Nos. 4, 5, 7, 8, 9, 10, 12, 68, 99, 112; D's 7, 8, 15, 23, 95, 100, 115, K-3, R-1)

British Saws-Henry Darby, Drabble & Sanderson

Canadian Saws-Disston (Acme 120, Canadian Boy)

*E*
American Saws-Erik Florip

British Saws-Moses Eadon, J. Eagers, Eclipse, Ericson

Canadian Saws-Eatonia


----------



## putty

Hey Bob, is there a day for the LJ made saws?


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## summerfi

Yes, we'll do that at the end. Some people are posting them early, but that's OK. We'll post them again at the end.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

^ope, sorry. I just figured the Lj saws would be by their last name.

The line gets fuzzy when a couple LJs already make professional quality saws;-)


----------



## putty

You are right Red, there is a fuzzy line. Shouldn't be any issues with Wally's saws!


----------



## summerfi

It's the day for F-saws. Lets see 'em. Here's mine.

A c.1850 Joseph Flint 14" brass back, before and after.




























A 12" British Thomas Flinn brass back. I bought the vintage brass back on ebay and made the plate, handle, and screws.



















This may be my oldest saw, an 1830-ish I. Fearn. If you search the records you can't find an I. Fearn. As some of you may know, in the old days the British, for some weird reason, used an "I" to represent a "J". So I suspect this saw was made by John Fearn. The experts I've consulted with have never seen another one. I haven't decided whether to restore it or leave it as found.




























This is a c.1870 14" Fenton & Marsdens brass back that came in the British saw lot. It will get a full restore when I find the time.


----------



## putty

Wow Bob, those are some nice e*FF*en saws!!
Did that Fearn saw have an etch or some other identifying mark?


----------



## summerfi

It has a faint name stamp on the plate. The raised dot between the I and the Fearn is another indication the saw is quite old.


----------



## Brit

Too early for an etch Putty. Acid etching started around 1850. It would have been stamped like this:


----------



## Brit

Ah I see Bob beat me to it. Nice saws Bob. Personally all I would do to that Fearn is gently remove the surface rust and hang it up on the wall.


----------



## summerfi

I tend to agree Andy. The thing that concerns me is I'm sure there is rust under the handle. But the grooves are gone in the split nuts. To remove the handle to treat the rust would almost certainly cause the destruction of the split nuts. Maybe the hidden rust is just something I live with. Thoughts?


----------



## Brit

Some things you just can't do much about Bob. Better to leave well alone IMO because the chances of getting all of the split nuts off without breaking or stripping the threads on one are not good. Even if you did get them off without breaking them, there is no guarantee that the handle would come off the plate if it is rusty. Moreover, even if you did manage to get it off and were able to clean the plate, the split nuts would never go back looking as good as they do now.


----------



## summerfi

I think that's good advice. It has lasted a long time with the rust, and probably will last a long time still if I keep it dry. Here's a picture of the reverse side.


----------



## DocBailey

Bob - that 12" Thomas Flinn is a thing of beauty.


----------



## summerfi

Thanks Doc.


----------



## putty

Hey Bob,

When the saws are all done being shown, how about having a day to show your saw tills or how they are stored.
I don't have anything to show, but would like to see how others store their saws.


----------



## DLK

I second Putty's motion.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Sorry fellas, but it's Saws, using collecting, cleaning and buying, not storing. Sounds like we need a new "Saw Tills of your dreams" thread.

lawl


----------



## kwigly

J Flint, St Catharines, Ontario
The Gent's half back is in tough shape (from un-gentlemanly handling ?), with the plate split and the back moved down to provide support over the split and prevent the blade from flapping.


----------



## summerfi

That's a very cool saw kwigly. I don't think I've ever seen a Flint halfback.

A saw till show and tell is a good idea. I don't think you want to see mine though. I have saws in my till, saws in cabinets and on shelves, saws in cardboard boxes and saws in my house. LOL One of my goals this year is to build a new super-sized saw till.


----------



## kwigly

G Fisher & Co
Are those "sloped gullets" ? I've wondered if they're original since they don't continue all the way to the heel, (although they're not really as useful at the heel)
Also, you would have to be careful to sharpen the teeth down on the same slope as the gullets so that you didn't start losing teeth as the blade got worn down


----------



## summerfi

That is certainly an odd one. I think kwigly wins the prize for most unusual saws.


----------



## pastahill

This is a German " Farmer Säge" no medallion or etching or stamp just a decal on the handle. The finish of the wood was almost gone and at the restauration i lost the decal. I dont know if farmer säge is the maker, the brand or just the name of this saw, I found nothing about this saw at the web.


----------



## summerfi

Nice farmer saw, pastahill. I love seeing uncommon or unusual saws.

Oops, I forgot this saw when I posted this morning. This is a 12" Footprint brand British saw that I currently have listed for sale on eBay.


----------



## summerfi

Just noticed I made post #10,000 on this thread a little ways up the page!


----------



## woodbench

Can anybody tell me about Jennings & Griffin, the medallion says warranted superior. Nice itch


----------



## summerfi

Jennings was Charles E. Jennings of New Haven, CT and then New York. Saws labeled C.E. Jennings are fairly common. Griffin was Francis B. Griffin, who formed a partnership with Jennings in 1885 that continued until about 1900. Like most saw makers, Jennings used a number of different brand names on his saws. One of those was Jennings & Griffin Mfg. Co. If you google "Jennings Griffin tools" you'll find a few sources with some info.


----------



## kwigly

Hey Bob, cograts on post #10,000 
(I was idly thinking of posting a T Fox saw to try for #10,000, but its a very ordinary looking saw, and I'd already scored #9999  )

The 5-2 tooth pattern on the Fisher saw is a bit like the Disston D 17 (except the deep gullets on the Disston are not sloped, and they're continued to the heel)


----------



## Wally331

^^ I was thinking the same as Kwigley. Looks like a craftsman made "Double duty" saw.

Sloped gullets are something entirely different than those on the Disston 17 or your saw. Here's a link to an article better describing sloped gullets.http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/CiantiM/Gullets/Gullets-01.asp


----------



## summerfi

Kwigly, you should post the Fox saw as I don't think I've ever seen one.


----------



## Brit

Gramercy backsaws 9" dovetail, 12" carcase x-cut and rip.










C. E. Garlick & Sons dovetail saw.

Before:



















Text on handle prior to restoration read "This saw is made of best quality cast steel and cannot be bettered for quality or workmanship."










After










This was also my first attempt at sharpening a 19ppi saw. I was quite please with how it came out.


----------



## jack77

Hi,
The Saw looks like new. Dan you took alot of efforts for it. Hats off to you. you have great collection of saw.


----------



## summerfi

These two saws are by Richard Groves & Sons. The first is 14" and the second is 16".














































This is a 14" brass back by C. Garlick & Sons. It will be restored when I get to it.










This saw is marked T.J. Gardner, a brand of C. Garlick & Sons, so either way it fits in the G's. I recently sold the saw on eBay because it was in such bad shape I didn't want to mess with it. Someone abused it by hammering on the brass back. I was surprised how much it sold for ($41).



















This 12" brass back was made for Styles & Brown by E. Garlick & Son. C. Garlick & Sons ceased to exist in 1931 and E. Garlick & Son began in 1932. I'm not sure of the relationship, perhaps father and son. This saw has a user made handle, but the slot for the blade was cut crooked, which torqued the blade and made it crooked. I glued veneer in the slot and then recut it, and now the blade is straight. I also did some reshaping of the handle. It's not ideal, but is the best I could do with what I had to work with. I don't know what kind of wood the handle is, but it is attractive and was easy to work. The saw is now for sale on ebay. Here are before and after pictures.


----------



## summerfi

I posted a picture of this saw during the last LJ saw swap. Sadly, no one fulfilled my request for a reproduction 
Now, I see on another forum that the saw has gone up for sale. The saw was made by Taylor Brothers for Queen Victoria's husband. The handle is ivory, the spine may be gold plated. The price? Well, for only 12,500 euros it could be yours. That is, if you can get around the law banning ivory import.


----------



## Brit

Wow! Somebody really did a job on that Gardner back Bob. Glad it worked out OK for you.


----------



## Brit

That ivory handle doesn't look very comfortable so I think I'll pass.


----------



## summerfi

> Wow! Somebody really did a job on that Gardner back Bob. Glad it worked out OK for you.
> 
> - Brit


Yeah, no doubt they were trying to tighten the back to the plate, but I can't imagine anyone being that dumb. I fully disclosed the condition when selling it, so my conscience is clear. Remarkably, the back and plate were pretty straight.


----------



## DocBailey

Those slot head screws on that ivory handle are like a poke in the eye.


----------



## jmartel

> Those slot head screws on that ivory handle are like a poke in the eye.
> 
> - DocBailey


You should buy it and replace it with a set of torx screws.


----------



## kwigly

because Bob wanted to see pictures of the Fox
(W S Medallion. Her only redeeming feature is her crowns)


----------



## kwigly

T J Gardner, Bristol, with a blank medallion


----------



## kwigly

Chas Gray & Sons 
(with an uninspiring handle)


----------



## summerfi

> Those slot head screws on that ivory handle are like a poke in the eye.
> 
> - DocBailey


Yes, I would have expected diamond studs. Must be replacements.

I see 3 other Foxes in my saw book, but no T. Fox, kwigly. I wonder if it was a secondary brand for another maker.


----------



## kwigly

Bob, T Fox is a bit of a mystery to me too. Looks to age about late 1800s to early 1900s era to me, and as you note, I don't see any "T" Fox in my saw books. 
Closest possibility I found in Sheffield directories was Thomas Fox, "engineers' tool maker, Fox Brothers (Sheffield) Ltd", (Sheffield Directories 1905, 1911, 1925), but the saw may have come from somewhere other than Sheffield, and/or may be a brand name.


----------



## summerfi

I must be slipping. Seeing kwigly's Chas. Gray reminded me that I forgot to post my Charles Gray & Sons (the oily handle saw).


----------



## Brit

Beautiful Bob.


----------



## terryR

That C. Gray calls my name very softly…

Got an F-saw last night…ErikF.










13" Dt saw I still haven't measured ppi on, but cuts like a dream in 4/4 cherry…










sorry for the double post tonight, but Erik's saw deserves to be in the 'F' group IMO!


----------



## terryR

And my Gramercy's…9" DT and 12" Crosscut.










Excellent workers.

And a restored Disston No.4 sneaking in on the sidelines. They're everywhere…LOL.


----------



## DocBailey

> Those slot head screws on that ivory handle are like a poke in the eye.
> 
> - DocBailey
> 
> You should buy it and replace it with a set of torx screws.
> 
> - jmartel


I can only assume this is your attempt at humor?

Don't quit your day job.


----------



## lateralus819

^Get out the neosporin.


----------



## DocBailey

^we don't need details on your personal life


----------



## Buckethead

SHOTS FIRED


----------



## richardwootton

Easy fellas, easy . . . Now where the hell did I put the baby powder?!?


----------



## summerfi

Well, here we are on H-day. This may be a slow day, but I'll kick it off with one.

This is an E. Henry table saw or grafting saw, whichever name you prefer. E. Henry is a brand name used by William Marples. As you can see, the handle has been broken and repaired with brass plates by a previous owner. Blade length on this one is 12" and it is filed 9 ppi rip.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Love the look of that saw/handle combo, never saw such a thing before. What's the stated purpose of a table/grafting saw?


----------



## Bigun

Anyone know anything about "Smith Lyon & Fields of NY"? Warranted Superior saw has this company logo etched onto it. It also has "Cast Steel Warranted" in the etching. It has 4 eagle brass medallions on the handle.
I did buy the saw and was trying to do some checking on the history of the maker. Yeah, I know, doing things backwards but it's different and I like different and the price wasn't bad. Just hope it's as good as it shows in the pictures. I'll have it in a few days to see.


----------



## summerfi

A couple other names I've seen applied to similar saws are pruning saw and household saw. Grafting/pruning/household saws are self explanatory, but even the experts seem to be lost on the purpose of a table saw. My guess is that today we would call it a bench saw, i.e. a small all purpose saw to use on and around our workbench. The funny thing is, in at least one old catalog the identical saw is listed twice, with two different prices. Once it's called a grafting saw and once a table saw.


----------



## chrisstef

Most likely a hardware store saw Troy. Who its made by is probably a wild guess as there were a bunch of saw makers in upstate NY and the east coast. Sometimes the style of the handle will tell a bit more of a tale when it comes to the maker but overall, all the handle styles were pretty close if not exactly the same.

A listing shown here has them as a plane maker from 1884-1895.


----------



## Bigun

Here's one of the pics


----------



## Tim457

Matt Cianci had it on his Blog somewhere that the point of a table saw was it could cut just tight enough of a curve for a table. Can't cut curves like a keyhole saw and doesn't easily stay as straight as a panel or hand saw. I'm not sure I'm buying it though.


----------



## summerfi

Interesting Tim. I guess if you were making round tables it might work.

^+1 what Stef said on Smith Lyon & Field


----------



## kwigly

Troy, My old EAIA Directory of Toolmakers lists Smith Lyon & Field as New York hardware dealers, 1884-1903
(nice saw, love that multi-medallion handle)


----------



## kwigly

some "H" saws 
9" backsaw from E Hughes of Leith (Edinburgh). A favourite little backsaw, now that I"ve cleaned off the old paint, adjusted the back to parallel with the plate edges, and sharpened it.


















Thos B Hawksworth (Thomas Buxton Hawksworth of Wilson Hawksworth Ellison & Co)(WS medallion)


















Hazeon, London


----------



## summerfi

Those are fantastic saws kwigly. The handle on that Hughes is something special.


----------



## summerfi

Given the slowdown today on H, what do you guys think about combining I and J tomorrow and combining K and L on Saturday? There will be saws for each of those letters, but probably not a great number. Unless there are objections, let's plan on that.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

I don't have much to contribute til we get to LNs and the LJ made saws

This week it occurred to me just how much more I use and enjoy handsaws of late. I used to consider myself a hand plane nut….but hand saws are just about as important to me of late. You guys have had quite a bit to do that that


----------



## kwigly

Some combo days might be good Bob,
(Otherwise I was thinking I might have to stretch the imagination a bit to post every day, like Q=question mark saws, U=unknown sawmaker, X=warranted Xtra, Y=Y did I buy this saw?, etc)


----------



## summerfi

I'm glad we're making progress on ya Red. Hey, didn't you miss posting a Disston saw?

That's funny kwigly. How about O=OMG saws.


----------



## putty

I have a few J's…Junk!


----------



## Brit

I'm out until we get to M.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

^Lol. Ya l was laughing about Y- did I buy this saw.

Bob, I have missed a couple with my weird hours. I can't post at work.

Here's the D-8 I inherited from my Great Uncle. Bob helped me with the restoration. She's a rippin machine now. 
















-

And here's the Glen-Drake saw I missed on G-day. 








-
Obviously a very unique saw, but I like it. The replaceable saw plate doesn't have teeth at each end. Then graduated teeth towards the center. Sounds funky, but starts very easy when you start with the "bald" part of the sawplate.


----------



## richardwootton

Red is the Glen Drake saw comfortable to use?


----------



## summerfi

Here's the updated list through H. There's an impressive amount of variety in the list, with lots more to come.

*A*
American Saws-C. Albee, E.C. Atkins, Atkins/Phoenix Superior

British Saws-Atkin & Sons, W. H. Armitage & Co., A. Ashton & Sons

Canadian Saws-E.C. Atkins

*B*
American Saws-Bad Axe, Josiah Bakewell, George H. Bishop, Bluegrass, E.M. Boynton, Bridge City Tool Works, Bridge Tool Co., bulldogs

British Saws-Beardshaw & Son, Alfred Beckett & Sons, S. Biggin & Sons, Bowdon & Co., W. Butcher

German Saws-Baier

*C*
American Saws-C.E. Jennings, Cincinnati Saw Company, Columbian Warranted, Craftsman, S H Crane

British Saws-L. Clarkson & Co., Cowell and Chapman

*D*
American Saws-Disston (Nos. 4, 5, 7, 8, 9, 10, 12, 68, 99, 112; D's 7, 8, 15, 23, 95, 100, 115, K-3, R-1)

British Saws-Henry Darby, Drabble & Sanderson

Canadian Saws-Disston (Acme 120, Canadian Boy)

*E*
American Saws-Erik Florip

British Saws-Moses Eadon, J. Eagers, Eclipse, Ericson

Canadian Saws-Eatonia

*F*
American Saws-Joseph Flint (Rochester, NY), E. Florip

British Saws-I. Fearn, Fenton & Marsdens, G. Fisher & Co, T. Flinn, Footprint, T. Fox

Canadian Saws-Joseph Flint (St. Catherines, ON)

German Saws-Farmer Säge

*G*
American Saws-Glen Drake, Gramercy

British Saws-T.J. Gardner, C. Garlick & Sons, E. Garlick & Son, Chas. Gray & Sons, R. Groves & Sons

*H*
British Saws-B. Hawksworth, Hazeon, E. Henry, E. Hughes


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Ya Richard. The hot dog handle is comfy. I enjoy using it. A video always helps. Here's Kevin Glen-Drake.


----------



## jmartel

Would saws from Lee valley go under L for Lee valley or V for veritas?


----------



## summerfi

I would say V, but hey, it's not a deal breaker either way. 

Alright, so today is I-J-Day. This may be another slow day, but here are a couple to start.

A 14" Richard Ibbotson brass back. There were several Ibbotsons. I've seen more by Thomas than anyone else, so a Richard is nice to have. This one needs a restoration, and I'll hopefully get to it one day.










This is a Jackson 12" backsaw that I refurbed and then sold awhile back. Jackson was a secondary brand of Disston. There was an older Jackson that preceded Disston in time, but this isn't one of those.


----------



## kwigly

another R Ibbotson. A rough saw, bought for the medallion (even though its edge is broken, but hey…it was only a couple of dollars !)
[*WARNING*: the "Its only a couple of dollars" philosophy can result in a space crippling accumulation of boxes and drawers and shelves and piles and more piles of rusty old saws (and/or planes or chisels or drills or axes or….)]



























C E Jennings. This is my only wooden-back backsaw (the original slotted-not-folded back ?)


















Jackson, Stacey & Smith. (This company seems to have been set up exclusively to export saws/knives/razors from Sheffield to America in the 1840s)


----------



## Mosquito

I've missed a few… forgot I had a Butcher branded saw…

Here is my go-to dovetail saw, a 10" Jackson









Started out in slightly worse shape


----------



## planepassion

Nice job on the S&J Moss. How do you like the open handle?


----------



## Mosquito

Not sure it makes much difference, but this one doesn't say Spear & Jackson, just "Jackson" in an arch on the spin, with Warranted before, and Cast Steel after.

I like the open handle. I haven't used a closed tote saw for dovetails yet, but I don't really have much of a preference either way I guess. At least not that I can tell lol


----------



## summerfi

Mos, there's still time to post your Butcher. We'd like to see it.

Kwigly, you continue to amaze with your unusual assortment of saws. That wooden back Jennings has to be rare. Any time you want to double your money on $2 saws, let me know.


----------



## chrisstef

Yea that wood back is something ive never seen before. I would have most definitely called BS on it if it wasn't stamped. Nice hoard fellas.

I need to get back into my saw game. I been slacking lately and working on too many other things. Maybe ill drag the workmate outside, a la Andy, this summer and refurb while the kid plays in the yard.


----------



## Mosquito

I'll have to get some pictures of the Butcher. I don't have any yet, and it's also not been cleaned up yet…


----------



## DocBailey

Here are my only "I-J" saws:

A rather old Ibbotson:


















(2) different J.D. Darlingtons-- a second line for Harvey Peace, Brooklyn


















And speaking of Harvey Peace, here's one I had intended to post on "G" day-technically it's a model 110, but the etch says "Good as Gold"-


















That is one of the few saws I regret selling-It was probably full width, the blade was straight as an arrow, and the black walnut handle was nearly perfect.


----------



## summerfi

Great saws Doc. Don't you just love the slogans sawmakers used to make their saws sound better than the competition, e.g. Good as Gold to All Who Try Me.

The Robert Ibbotson saw has an interesting history according to my saw book. Robert was partnered with Charles and Samuel Peace (British sawmakers, not the U.S. Peace, but related). Robert lived in America from 1834, acting as sales agent for the company, selling cutlery, tools, and starting about 1845, saws. In c.1859 the company changed to W.K.&C. Peace (William Kirby and Charles Peace) and one of the brand names used on their saws was Robert Ibbotson. The convoluted history of sawmakers and the names they used for their saws is really quite fascinating.


----------



## upchuck

Bob-
"The convoluted history of sawmakers and the names they used for their saws is really quite fascinating." I agree. But it is never going to be a subject I'll work to master. I am especially glad that you and others have taken up that challenge. You all are a great resource for myself and others to ask questions. I use the Medallion Guide to help identify the vintage saws I buy. Ever thought about doing the same with saw plate etches and stamps?

This "Saw by the Letters Month" has inspired me to clean up a few of my rescues.

chuck


----------



## kwigly

> That wooden back Jennings has to be rare.
> Any time you want to double your money on $2 saws, let me know.
> 
> - summerfi


Phil Baker mentions wooden backs here
http://www.wkfinetools.com/hUS-saws/z_reading-Contemp/amBacksaw/amBacksaw2.asp

Be careful what you ask for Bob. The box lot system at many local auctions results in plenty of unwanted saws along with the few interesting ones. Last year I sold 50+ handsaws for $25, and was happy with the deal (some were even shiny usable, but no antiques) . Now if you are offering $4/saw….... I'd even throw in some with brass hardware….maybe a couple with split nuts ….along with lots of rust, chipped handles and bent plates…
[But likely Border Security would protect you from the corruption of importing such subversive and dangerous weapons ]


----------



## DocBailey

Bob -

Heck yes, the names on the old saws are a riot.

the backstory on Ibbotson is much appreciated.


----------



## summerfi

> This "Saw by the Letters Month" has inspired me to clean up a few of my rescues.
> 
> chuck
> 
> - upchuck


Fantastic Chuck! Then this has been a success. Be sure to post pictures!


----------



## Mosquito

The Butcher


----------



## summerfi

Beautiful vintage saw Mos. Is that a brass back?


----------



## Mosquito

It is not, it's steel. I don't own any brass backs anymore (sold my LN dovetail saw). I've got a brass back kit that I hope to make soon, though…


----------



## DocBailey

Nice, Mos

Looks to be in far better condition than typically encountered


----------



## john2005

Only one to make it through the restore pile so far and my go to user.

before









after



















Thats right, double medallions. Just how we roll around here!


----------



## jmartel

I was about to say that wow you cleaned the saw plate up good, but now I think you replaced the platen or found a way to stretch it.


----------



## Mosquito

Only problem I have now, is that I don't have a split nut driver small enough for my butcher saw


----------



## WhoMe

O, O, I get to play on "J" day. My 10" Jackson saw. Unfortunately the bottom of the handle was cut/sanded flat so I tried to smooth it out a little. It is decently cleaned up but needs a good sharpening. The medallion is just blank with dots and circles so I have no idea other than the stamp on the spine.


----------



## summerfi

This may seem like the movie Groundhog Day, but it's really K-L saw day. I'll kick it off.

Here are a couple of Keen Kutter No. 88's that I refurbished and sold.



















Now admittedly this next saw is scraping the bottom of the barrel, but I must keep up my string of at least one saw for every letter. This is a Legal Tender saw with a beat up Disston replacement handle. This cheaply made saw is in my junk pile.



















What, you may ask, is a Legal Tender saw? Well I don't know either, but it must be a real saw. Below are pictures of one I saw on ebay and one in an old catalog.



















I'm glad that's over. Now I can move on to the M's. ;-)


----------



## Buckethead

That legal tender etch is kinda cool. A new handle and it would have been a far prettier saw.


----------



## JayT

Wasn't sure if this was supposed to be posted on 'K' day or 'S' day, but since Bob led it off.

Keen Kutter (EC Simmons) 14in backsaw. Someone before me tried to pretty it up and polished through the brass plating in a few spots and I still need to find a replacement for the missing saw nut. The handle has a chunk out at the bottom, but not sure I'm going to fix that unless it becomes an annoyance once I get it sharpened and start to use it.



















Has a faint etch under the patina, as well


----------



## DocBailey

The only "K" day saw I could think of-my NOS Keystone K-6 Challenger




























In its day, it was the flagship model of the Keystone fleet









Somewhere, I still have the original box


----------



## kwigly

K for keyhole saws ? 
A "picture" selection of some of my different handle styles










My Keen Kutters are not as nice as those already posted, ....'til when I get a round tuit…


















for L, a Livingston Manufacturing Co, Johnstown N.Y. c1860s meatsaw, which has seen a ton of work. The owner's fore finger has worn a hollow almost 1/4" deep into the face of the handle, (and the thumb has started a groove on the other side, like on the Disston thumbhole). 
Whenever I hold it, and my fingers slip into those smooth worn hollows, I can't help but think of the miles of meat cut with this saw.


----------



## putty

Nice saws everyone

Kwigly, that is a really neat display!


----------



## Brit

So that's where all the keyhole saws went. ) Nice display Kwigly.


----------



## bandit571

Wondering IF hacksaws are included in this show& tell?

Have one by Great Neck ( No.50) and a strange looking one from UNION.

If you want, I can go and take a "group shot" of them?


----------



## bandit571

Well, here goes









The three I have.









Wards Master Quality, with some sort of amber plastic handle,









Great Neck No. 50, black plastic handle, with GREAT NECK molded into it









UNION MFG. Co., with a wood handle.

Well, time to get back to the shop, have a project that needs some work…









Needs that drawer done.


----------



## Brit

William Marples & Sons 10". Waiting for full restoration.


----------



## houblon

Here is a J.H. Noble (is it N-day?)


----------



## summerfi

That Marples is a beauty Andy. Why do your unrestored saws look better than most people's new ones?

Today is M day, but your Noble is welcome any time Houblon. That's a nice saw, and looks to be an old one.

I have one M saw. I'll take a picture and post it a little later.


----------



## terryR

I've lost track…does Lie-Nielsen count as L? I held mine back since I didn't see any.

Got ONE M -saw, also…better photograph it before my wife grabs it…


----------



## summerfi

Terry, LN probably should go under L, but since we're passed that, post any time.


----------



## bandit571

Did some hand saw work last night

Crosscut with a National Hardware Special saw









Didn't do too bad a job, either









This is the off cut. Then tried two different saws as ripsaws









Diamond Edge handled with a Sandvik rusty plate. Wore a lot of the rust off. The other saw was a D-8 from the 1950s. It seeemed to cut a little better. Both are 8ppi. It did help to add a knife wall for the rip cuts









Mark a line with a square and pencil, cut the line with same, come back with knife only, and make it a "V" like groove. Saws followed it nicely.


----------



## summerfi

Here is my only M saw, an 8" William Marples & Sons gent's saw. As you can see, it has two holes in the plate for a depth stop.


----------



## chrisstef

Moulson Bros:


----------



## terryR

My LN's, 10ppi rip tenon that I Love…










8ppi crosscut Panel which I will re-file one o these days to a finer cut…










M-saw being washed…


----------



## Brit

> That Marples is a beauty Andy. Why do your unrestored saws look better than most people s new ones?
> - summerfi


I'm blowed if I know Bob. I do try really hard not to buy crap though. Doesn't always work, but I do try. When I restore that saw, I'm going to have to shim and re-cut the mortise for the back as there is a good 1/2mm gap either side at present and the mortise isn't doing its job.

*Terry* - "M-saw being washed" Huh?


----------



## kwigly

M ; Merrick-Anderson, hardware merchants 
George Merrick and Thomas Anderson formed their hardware company in Winnipeg in the 1880s. After Anderson died in 1919 the company was absorbed by Marshall-Wells
(Looks like this thumbhole M-A saw may have been supplied by Disston)



























M; Alex Marshall, Glasgow (1883-1904)
before


















after a bit of cleaning, and re-aligning the back (a lot of people seem to pound the toe end of their backsaws until that end is fully into the back and the plate looks tapered. wtf? )


----------



## Brit

*Kwigly* - That Alex Marshall has done a lot of work hasn't it. I bet it could tell some stories. I love the medallion. I bet Bob will want a close up of that for his Saw Medallion Reference Guide thread.


----------



## terryR

^that Marshall looks like terryR sharpened it! 

Yeah, well…I tried to get to the elusive M-saw before my wife…so had to wait till after washing to share…










18" Mound meat cutting saw! 










St.Loius, MO


----------



## kwigly

> ^that Marshall looks like terryR sharpened it!


LOL. I was wondering who the previous owner was !

That's a pretty severe hang angle on your Mound meat saw handle Terry

Andy, 
that Marshall medallion is rather unusual, but Bob probably wouldn't be interested for his guide. I didn't have a medallion handy to put in the empty spot, so I tried a coin from my jar-of-odd-foreign-coins, and it was a perfect fit and it looked like it belonged there so I left it there (maybe it *IS* a Marshall….Marshall Tito maybe?)

edit; It *IS* a Marshall, Vittorio Emanuele III," First* Marshal* of the Empire" (Italy)


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Here's my Lie Nielsen's. LNs are some of the most expensive hand planes, but not saws. They're a pretty decent value imo. Here's my tapered crosscut saw. Probably the most used saw in my shop.









And my LN DT saw. It's an aggressive bugger. Tricky to start. Wish it had a little more sawplate.










For K, here's my customized Knew Concepts fret saw. I stripped the red off the aluminum off it and had Terry turn a cocobolo handle for me. This thing is the shizzle for removing dovetail waste.


----------



## terryR

^sweet fret saw, I hope…have one in the mail now. 

Almost forgot my lil Marples, flush cut saw,










Actually a nice, light weight saw for DT's!

depending on who is swinging it…










LOL.


----------



## Tugboater78

There is a rip Nicholson saw in the back recess of my boats engine room i have contemplated trading one of my WS xcut saws for. Im sure itll never be missed. Its been hanging there since this boat was built and never used im sure. Has a skim of surface rust.. maybe ill capture a pic later today.

No real use for a handsaw on here… especially a ripsaw. We have a circ saw onboard in case we need to cut a piece of plywood for a cabinet shelf or something.


----------



## summerfi

N-day! Here is a Norvell's Fast Mail saw I sold a while back. A cheap saw made in the E.C. Simmons factory in St Louis. Norvell was head of sales, and he got a saw named after him. The saw does have a nice etch of a locomotive on it.


----------



## DocBailey

I apologize in advance, for the out of sequence post, but Bob's Norvell post with locomotive reminded me of this Disston (looks to be a D-23, basically). A locomotive can be seen at the bottom of the etch, speeding past the Disstonworks of Philadelphia.


----------



## Ub1chris

Seems like I missed M day, so I'll try to sneak one in here…










My Medallion Toolworks DT saw


----------



## bandit571

While this was made by Disston in 1954









The very readable etch says it is a National Hardware Special, although the word Disston is in the etch as BIG block letters. I guess this would be an "N" saw?


----------



## Tugboater78

Nothin special.. Nicholson.. probably made in the 1980s.. my guees.. never used.


----------



## summerfi

This is a Nicholson also, from my junk pile. Typical mid-20th century decadence. The secondary etch says something about unexcelled workmanship. Ha!


----------



## kwigly

*N* ; *N*aylor, Vickers & Co, Sheffield

14" steel back, 1850s/1860s, (not as beat up as most of my finds)


----------



## summerfi

Hey guys, let's do *O, P, and Q* tomorrow. I'm not expecting many O's or Q's, but there should be a few P's. Once we get to the R's, S's, and T's things should really start to take off again.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Okay, one of the crappiest etch pics ever, but here goes. A K4 'Air Master' by Disston.










And to offset the bad, an early 'O' saw: The Orion Saw, Pittsburgh Penn.


----------



## summerfi

Here's a new updated list through N. Let's see those O's, P's and Q's tomorrow.

*A*
American Saws-C. Albee, E.C. Atkins, Atkins/Phoenix Superior

British Saws-Atkin & Sons, W. H. Armitage & Co., A. Ashton & Sons

Canadian Saws-E.C. Atkins

*B*
American Saws-Bad Axe, Josiah Bakewell, George H. Bishop, Bluegrass, E.M. Boynton, Bridge City Tool Works, Bridge Tool Co., bulldogs

British Saws-Beardshaw & Son, Alfred Beckett & Sons, S. Biggin & Sons, Bowdon & Co., W. Butcher

German Saws-Baier

*C*
American Saws-Cincinnati Saw Company, Columbian Warranted, Craftsman, S H Crane

British Saws-L. Clarkson & Co., Cowell and Chapman

*D*
American Saws-J.D. Darlington, Disston (Nos. 4, 5, 7, 8, 9, 10, 12, 68, 99, 112; D's 7, 8, 15, 23, 95, 100, 115; K's 3,4; R-1, Great American)

British Saws-Henry Darby, Drabble & Sanderson

Canadian Saws-Disston (Acme 120, Canadian Boy)

*E*
American Saws-Erik Florip

British Saws-Moses Eadon, J. Eagers, Eclipse, Ericson

Canadian Saws-Eatonia

*F*
American Saws-Joseph Flint (Rochester, NY), E. Florip

British Saws-I. Fearn, Fenton & Marsdens, G. Fisher & Co, T. Flinn, Footprint, T. Fox

Canadian Saws-Joseph Flint (St. Catherines, ON)

German Saws-Farmer Säge

*G*
American Saws-Glen-Drake, Good As Gold (Peace), Gramercy, Great Neck

British Saws-T.J. Gardner, C. Garlick & Sons, E. Garlick & Son, Chas. Gray & Sons, R. Groves & Sons

*H*
British Saws-B. Hawksworth, Hazeon, E. Henry, E. Hughes

*I*
British Saws-Richard Ibbotson, Robert Ibbotson

*J*
American Saws-Jackson, C.E. Jennings

British Saws-Jackson, Stacey & Smith

*K*
American Saws-Keen Kutter, Knew Concepts

*L*
American Saws-Legal Tender, Lie Nielsen, Livingston Mfg. Co.

*M*
American Saws-Master Qualaity, Medallion Toolworks, Mound Tool

British Saws-William Marples & Sons, Alex Marshall, Moulson Brothers

Canadian Saws-Merrick-Anderson

*N*
American Saws-National Hardware, Nicholson, J.H. Noble, Norvell's

British Saws-Naylor, Vickers & Co.

*O*
American Saws-Orion


----------



## terryR

Another small saw for 'O'...Olson coping saw. A very good saw IMO for $12.










...still, this technique is ruining my DT's…along with carelessness.


----------



## Buckethead

Those are great looking 'ruined' tails there, Terry.


----------



## summerfi

^+1 Terry's attention to detail is unsurpassed.

It's a sad day in Sawsville. Alas, I have no O-saw, and my unbroken string of a saw for every letter has come to an end. I must do something about that. Just as bad, I have no Q-saw either. I'm feeling the shame. I do have a P-saw, brought back from a life of hanging on a restaurant wall, and I'll have to rely on that for redemption. Here is my Harvey Peace.


----------



## Tim457

I can't believe the lack of an Olsen coping saw is what broke your streak. Q is certainly a tough one though. That Harvey Peace is definitely in better shape.


----------



## donwilwol

nobody with a Quigley?

http://www.crosscutsawyer.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=860


----------



## DLK

First my apologies for (1) being late on this and (2) for not have started the restoration on this saws, but other projects keep me from it. I think however this *J. Butcher* saw is not on the list and maybe someone will sell me some proper saw bolts for it. (I see W. Butcher but not J. Butcher) So here are some pictures. I posted thes pictures last summer over on rust hunting.

*Full picture:*









*The nib*









*The stamp*









*The sorry handle frontside needing new saw bolts*









*The handle backside*









Once I get it cleaned up and straightened I'll repost. Right now my Miller Falls - Langdon miter box has arrived and I am working on her so that my orphaned miter saw has a home.


----------



## putty

Maybe Kwigly has one of those Quigley saws Don.


----------



## summerfi

Don K - The J. Butcher saw is interesting. I can't find a reference to a sawmaker of that name. Could you post a closeup of the name stamp that shows what the other wording says.

Here is another P-saw. Pennsylvania Saw Corp.


----------



## terryR

> Those are great looking ruined tails there, Terry.
> 
> - Buckethead


 thanks, guys, but you cannot see the backside where my aggressive coping cut into the slanted dovetails…luckily that's the backside of the project! 

Bob, I'm willing to help hunt down the dude that painted that Peace anytime…
your restore is superb.


----------



## DocBailey

My P-day offerings:

First up a "Paragon" saw. This was one of the names under which saws manufactured by the Monhagen Saw Works, Middletown, N. Y., were sold. They are, of course, more well-known for the Wheeler, Madden & Clemson line.




























Next up, a Harvey Peace No. 40:




























Lastly, a somewhat rare, 18" Harvey Peace P-26-in need of lower horn surgery:


----------



## DLK

O.k. *Bob* here is the best close up I can do.










It says I believe* Sheffield *under *J. Butcher* to the right
it says warranted cast steel_

So do you think if I polish it 320 to 800 grit that I will loose the stamp?


----------



## pastahill

I have no O but a few P

Here my old* P.H.M* maybe very old. I think the blade is iron and not steel and the form of the handle and the split nuts let me guess that´s an english saw. In a other forum they speculated that the saw is maybe from the 17th century


















This is a german *Wilhelm Putsch* ( Remscheid) D T Saw still unrestored.




























and last but not least my two *Pastahill Toolworks*














































The DT Saw will get 18 TPI


----------



## Buckethead

Bob… This is a painting of Cape Elizabeth, Maine. Painted from the perspective of the Goddard Mansion. (South Portland)

Kevin… Back me up bro. ;-)


----------



## summerfi

Yep. Pemaquid Point.


----------



## terryR

^Nice!

Another H. Peace…P-37…


----------



## theoldfart

Buck-et, can't say that I've been there but it does look like pictures I've seen. I WILL make it a point to go there this year and confirm your declaration of content and post a testimonial forthwith. You have my word. Honest.


----------



## Buckethead

Cape Elizabeth is the first photo I took when I got my first corporate blackberry. 
(This is pulled from the web, but I took basically the same shot)










I also took a small stone home as a memento. Floridians are fascinated by actual rocks. We don't really have any except those that are shipped in.


----------



## theoldfart

Bucket. take a ride over to the old fort in St. Augustine, maybe they will let you take one 

BTW the place is quite amazing.


----------



## racerglen

Nice work Pastahill ! love your totes on the new ones, that 1st saw is quite unique, nice find .


----------



## Buckethead

I'm very familiar, Kev. That stuff is coquina. Not really rock.










Very porous with the unforeseen benefit of absorbing a cannon ball without much damage.

I take it you visited St Augustine during your recent visit? Very cute place, and you did well to visit before summer kicks in, both for the heat/humidity and the crowds.

Edit: sorry to get so far off topic, guys. Here's a pic of a saw:


----------



## chrisstef

A little panel saw by Harvey Peace.


----------



## kwigly

O ; Ohlen Bishop ?


















OK, maybe its a Bishop, pre Ohlen merger in 1920, but its hard to tell. My Ohlen-Bishop catalog shows all the saws still with Geo. H Bishop & Co etches and medallions.

howzabout O=Ozmun, as in Farwell, Ozmun, Kirk & Co









OK, so its only the medallion, I don't know where the FOK saw is, I think I just saved the medallion and trashed the saw

For P, I have a real saw, a nice Joseph Peace, with side plates both sides of the handle, raised iron split nuts, and a big etch.




































For Q, all I can offer is a Queer saw (it goes both ways)
[sorry, maybe its all the green beer I swilled today]


----------



## summerfi

Those were some great saws yesterday. Let's see what we've got today for R-saws.

*Richardson Brothers*














































*Riverside*


----------



## planepassion

Recently, I sharpened a D-8 shipwright's saw (really narrow towards the toe.) And about in the middle of the sawplate, the steel transitioned from good steel to "titanium-hard" metal. It ruined two files and I could barely cut the metal. It was about a 1-inch stretch. Have any of you run into this before?


----------



## Brit

Yes Brad, I had exactly the same issue on a no name panel saw I recently sharpened for a friend, except in my case it was about 4" from the heel and the teeth in question covered about 1" of the toothline. I also ruined a couple of files. They didn't do anything. I ended up buying a cheap set of diamond needle files and using the three square file from the set on those teeth. I found that after a few strokes with the diamond file, I could use the saw file on the teeth as normal. Very strange.


----------



## Buckethead

Uneven tempering, perhaps? Stacked in an oven?


----------



## summerfi

I use a pneumatic cutoff wheel to cut out my saw plates. I've noticed that in certain small spots this can sometimes case harden the steel on the surface. I don't know if it's a temperature thing, a mechanical thing, or what. A file won't touch those spots. I have to grind them lightly on a disk sander, then the file works fine. The same thing can sometimes happen with a piece of steel that you strike with a hammer; it can become case hardened. I suspect this is what's going on with the saws mentioned above. They may have been kinked, struck, or suffered some sort of temperature anomaly in those spots. Like Andy said, if you can get through the surface case hardening, then the steel is likely normal again.


----------



## dbray45

I have been saw hunting since I bought a saw filer - need to get some practice and no better way than a few saws in poor shape.

Well, I went to the Patina tool event last weekend and bought 3 saws for $5 each. Then won an auction for 10 saws for $40 (including shipping). When I get some time, I am going to clean up and sharpen as many of them as possible. The ones that turn out, I will sell, the others I will re-purpose for parts.

The ones that I sell, I will post here first for any takers. Don't have any pics yet.


----------



## planepassion

Thanks Andy and Summerfi. That makes sense. I'll see if Harbour Freight has any cheap diamond needle files…


----------



## Brit

Good for you David, I'm sure you'll learn a lot as you undertake that project. I know I did.

Brad - Glad to help. The case hardening is only a few microns thick so it doesn't take much to file through it with a diamond file.


----------



## ToddJB

Brad, they do. I love them. I use them on just about every project I do (for some reason)

http://www.harborfreight.com/needle-file-set-10-pc-69876.html


----------



## summerfi

I'm surprised there haven't been more R-saws posted today. Maybe we'll see a few more before the clock strikes midnight.

Well, as of today I'm declaring the British backsaw lot adventure complete. I thought you guys might like a summary of how that went. As you recall, I received a lot of 38 saws from the UK on February 2, so about a month and a half ago. I kept 11 saws for myself and put the others up for sale, first here on LJ, then on my website, and finally on eBay. I sold 12 saws to LJ's, 3 on my website, 11 on eBay, and there is still one for sale on my website. Of the 26 saws sold and 1 still for sale, 12 were sold in unrestored condition, and I restored/cleaned up 15. Saws were sold from California to New Jersey and Montana to Texas, so the whole country was pretty much covered. The cheapest saw ($7.50) and the most expensive saw ($180) were both sold on eBay. In total, I received my initial investment back plus some, and kept 11 of the best saws for free. It was a lot of work, but it was fun and I would do it again.

During the same time period, I've sold 1 restored saw and 2 saws that I made on my website, and I've received 3 orders from LJ's for my saws, one of which has been delivered and two more are in progress. So that's 44 saws processed in the past month and a half, not counting a few other saws I've bought on eBay. I'm ready for a break. I love working on saws, but this is starting to look like a job. I'm hopeful things will start to slow down now that the British saws are gone.

One interesting fact, the first saw I ever made, a little sycamore open handled saw made from an old Disston saw plate, was recently sold to an employee of the Texas Historical Commission where it will be used in an interpretive tool chest for projects at the Fort McKavett historical site. I'm pretty happy about that. Saws-you gotta love 'em.

Tomorrow is S-day. I have a bunch of S-saws and I expect others do too.


----------



## ToddJB

Dang. Bob. Super happy it worked out financially and while still giving you some awesome new saws for free. I speak for me and all the other recipients of your hard work when I say we appreciate you. Take a break, ol boy, you've earned it.


----------



## putty

Wow Bob, you have been a busy man! How great is that…doing what you love to do in retirement and still making a profit.

Good news on the Fort McKavett saw, that is right up your alley. You should plan a trip to see it, the Texas hill country is very nice.


----------



## putty

Wow Bob, you have been a busy man! How great is that…doing what you love to do in retirement and still making a profit.

Good news on the Fort McKavett saw, that is right up your alley. You should plan a trip to see it, the Texas hill country is very nice.


----------



## putty

Todd, that is a great price for those…$7.99 I'll have to pick up a set.


----------



## kwigly

R : *R*osling, 
a 12 " open handle backsaw, with an interesting WS medallion, looks about c1900
A Rosling was a brand name for Beardshaw & Son


----------



## kwigly

"*S*" Day, could be a Canada Day, with R H *S*mith, *S*hurly & Dietrich, T F *S*hurly Co all making some interesting saws

Some of the variety of handles that Shurly & Dietrich experimented with
S&D "Empress", (with more nibs than a box of pens)









S&D No 92 finger grip handle









S&D "Post Boy" with the blade extending through the horns to make the handle "unbreakable" (but ugly)









S&D 1900 rip saw, thumbhole-ish version









R H Smith made some good stuff too, (some with double nibs on the blade)
RHS no 41 with raised ornamental brass screws

















RHS "Leader" with thumb notch (design stolen from WM&C?)









double nibs (or remnants)


----------



## summerfi

My goodness, kwigly, you sure have some unique saws. I could become envious very easily. How many years have you been building that collection?


----------



## GMatheson

Here is my Robt Sorby collection


----------



## DocBailey

Richardson Bros.


----------



## donwilwol

Simmonds










Sandvik


----------



## DLK

*Spear and Jackson*


----------



## grfrazee

Another Spear & Jackson:


----------



## Brit

Awesome saws guys. I've never seen anything like that Shurly & Dietrich Empress tote.

Here are my three Spear and Jackson saws.

12" Leap Frog brand.










8" Leap Frog brand. The first saw I ever sharpened.










26" crosscut saw. The saw that got me interested in saws.





































My Shark saws. They don't see much use nowadays.










I also have a nice Simonds 10" carcase saw, but I can't find any photos of it at the moment.


----------



## summerfi

*Supplee* with non-original handle. I sold this saw a while ago.



















*Robert Sorby*. First a 14" tennon saw I sold just this week, second a handsaw that was sold a while ago.





































I have a few more S-saws to post later, but I need to take some pictures first.


----------



## planepassion

Kwigley, that S&D Empress is bizarre in a cool way. But the most amazing thing about it is that the nibs are intact. It's astonishing that they weren't broken off on downstrokes over the years.

Andy and Summerfi…you two always take saws to the next level…makes it worth dropping in on this forum daily. Nice pictures, great history, better camaraderie.


----------



## planepassion

Todd, those files will be in hand soon to resolve my "titanium" toothline problem


----------



## putty

Here is one of my "S" saws, the other will be shown on the LJ made saw day.

This Spear and Jackson was one of the saws that Summerfi shared with us from the UK. I plan to do a good clean up and make a new handle for it. It is an 8" saw, I cant decide to make an open handle or closed handle.


----------



## summerfi

Here are the rest of my S-saws.

A pair of *Stanley *gent's saws.










*Simonds*










All the rest are *Spear & Jackson*.

This is the saw that started my infatuation with British saws. I bought it for $3 on eBay. It's pitted and it's plate is narrowed from sharpening, but it's still a grand old saw.



















This little saw was a disaster when I got it. It's been nearly filed away over the years and someone shortened it. I made a new beech handle for it, filed on a new nib, and now it's a nice little baby S&J.



















This one is unrestored but should be nice when I can get around to working on it.




























The last saw is also obviously unrestored. It has a thin "floppy" plate that I'm not sure what to do with. It may forever be a wall hanger.


----------



## DocBailey

*S day offerings …*

First up, a Simonds No 42-the "King Philip" model. Named in honor of a Native American, (real name Metacom) whom the Colonists derisively nicknamed King Philip for his regal bearing and royal attire.



















You may just be able to make out the Indian Head just over the "PH" of Philip.









Next-an early Sheffield Saw Works panel saw:


----------



## DocBailey

*S-day* (cont'd)

Next my two most valued saws.
First up, a Simonds No 5 panel saw with a nearly perfect handle, reminiscent of the Disston 12.




























And here is the (unused) flagship of my fleet.
An NOS Simonds 72, with all the original blue enamel still in the "Blue Ribbon" etch


----------



## Buckethead

I CAN PLAY BUT IMA WAIT TILL THE BLING FROM EVERYBODY ELSES DIMINISHES A BIT IM NOT WORTHY


----------



## DLK

> I CAN PLAY BUT IMA WAIT TILL THE BLING FROM EVERYBODY ELSES DIMINISHES A BIT IM NOT WORTHY
> 
> - Buckethead


Don't be shy, I'm going to show some un-bling on V-day.


----------



## summerfi

Bucket, you don't seem like the shy type. After some of the saws I've shown out of my rust pile, you have nothing to worry about.

Here's another *Spear & Jackson* that I forgot about.


----------



## bandit571

Well, overslepted, and had to work last night…

"R" as in Rescue?









And for the "S"..That rusted, non-painted one at the top is a Sandvik. After the rescue of these $1 saws









Diamond Edge handle on the Sanvik blade









Medallion says Warranted Superior









Haven't a clue. And the "prize" of the lot..









This one was painted on both sides, cleaned up into a decently sharp D-8.

Not too bad, for painted treasures?


----------



## daddywoofdawg

john2005: how did you remove the black? I have a old stanley Square that the metal has turned black and want to remove that.


----------



## DocBailey

^ daddywoofdawg -

It looks like you're referring to post #10072 …
That is *not* the same plate in the before and after photo.


----------



## Brit

Doc - That Blue Ribbon saw is jaw droppingly good. Glad its in your possession.

Wow - What a great day 'S' has turned out to be. I think there will be quite a few on 'T' day too.


----------



## Buckethead

Here's my Simonds 97 backsaw: needs sharpening and has a couple small impact dings.




























Also had a larger Simonds backsaw for a miter box. I don't believe it was original to this one, because the saw (made for stanley) had the sweetheart logo but the box did not. Sold it on the bay for what I paid. I actually thought I'd make a profit, but didn't. It did go to a guy who was excited to get it, and wanted it for the saw more than the box. 
That made me happy.
(Lesson learned: break up the set to maximize profit… But it makes me feel bad just to say it.)


----------



## theoldfart

Catching up with the r's
A *R* Groves *R*ocky Mountain Saw Works work of art


















And for the S crowd some Simonds, #71 bottom, #10 middle, #9 top








Their etches respectively 



























Finally a Simonds #95 mitre saw ( bottom)


----------



## Bigun

So I got a new to me old saw yesterday. I made a split nut driver today and I was able to get it cleaned up, just need to wax the handle when BLO dries. It was stamped 5, double checked and its 5 TPI, 6 PPI. I don't plan on ripping stock with hand saws, right now anyway, so would sharpening it cross cut reasonable or would it be too coarse?
Thought I'd share som pics, first is how it arrived.



























Here it is after a little clean up. No rust so it wasn't that bad.


----------



## Bigun




----------



## Buckethead

That's a cool looking saw, Troy. Awesome medallions. I don't know how collectible it is, but I've not seen one before.

I'd be afraid to take those teeth any closer to the etch until I found out if it's worth saving as a collector.


----------



## Bigun

> That s a cool looking saw, Troy. Awesome medallions. I don t know how collectible it is, but I ve not seen one before.
> 
> I d be afraid to take those teeth any closer to the etch until I found out if it s worth saving as a collector.
> 
> - Buckethead


Not wanting to take teeth closer, just want to sharpen to cross cut.


----------



## DocBailey

Troy

Unless you're planning on a 5 TPI crossccut saw, you're going to be filing in new teeth-as a result, I suspect that you will be taking the teeth closer to the etch.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Two of my best saws are 'S' models.

First, a beautifully etched Sea Hawk by the Sheffield Saw Works (EC Atkins):



















It's a wicked-sharp cross-cut at a factory 7 ppi.

Second, a Simmons that we all know is a Bishop's Patent Adjustable Backsaw:



















Love this saw for dados.

And, almost left out, a craptacular Sears.


----------



## summerfi

Troy, congrats on a cool old saw. It's a beauty. If it was mine, I would leave it as a rip. You'll want a rip eventually anyway, and 6 ppi would be too coarse for most crosscut work. With all the old saws available out there, you'll find a nice crosscut soon to go with that great old rip saw.

Edit: Love that Sea Hawk etch Smitty.


----------



## daddywoofdawg

Is the Bishop's Patent Adjustable Backsaw, a rip saw on one set of teeth?If not a question to the community,Did anyone ever make a Rip saw on one side cross cut on the other?seems like a good Idea.


----------



## summerfi

Like this one woof?


----------



## Tim457

Looks like the sharpener there took the opportunity to put in a set of cows and calves on both sides too. Nobody's lonely that way. The top is not as bad though.


----------



## WhoMe

Wow, there are some rally nice saws on the 's' day.
I have to add my Simonds No 15 adjustable hack saw to the mix. Sorry, not the best picture.








Here is the etch








And here is the page from the 1923 Simonds saw catalog









It took me a while to find it as I have not seen a saw like this. Not sure if I will try to sharpen it and if I do, I have a feeling I will need something pretty hard to do it. In the mean time it is pretty fun to look at.


----------



## summerfi

I agree there were some amazing S-saws shown yesterday. I think we'll see some great T-saws today too. Here's what I've got.

I seem to attract Taylor Brothers saws, either with the Taylor Bros. name proper, or with their brand name of J. Taylor & Son. This first saw is one of my pride & joy saws, and I talked about it at length in this blog. When I got it, it had never been sharpened, even once, in it's more than 100 year history. It is a massive J. Taylor & Son rip.




























This is my J. Taylor & Son crosscut. It makes a nice companion for the saw above. For being a big saw, it has fine teeth, 11 ppi.




























Next is a Taylor Brothers rip saw that I made a new walnut handle for and wrote up as a project.




























This next saw is my most recent acquisition, and I can't want to restore it. It is a J. Taylor & Son rip saw with a decorative cast brass side plate and domed/cone nuts on the reverse side.




























Here is a W. Tyzack, Sons & Turner rip saw. It has a lot of pitting, but it's still a nice old saw.




























This is a Thomas Turner & Co. brass back saw that came in the recent British saw lot purchase.










Finally, here is a Thomas Turner & Co. brass back that I picked up on ebay and will one day make into a saw.


----------



## Brit

Are we on the Ts yet? Hope so, 'cause here comes a few of mine.

*W. Tyzack, Sons & Turner*

14" tenon saw









12" carcase saw









A No.120 14" tenon saw with a re-modeled handle. You can only do so much though and it still looks like crap.



























No.2 crosscut handsaw awaiting restoration


















Another No.2 awaiting restoration




































A No.3 after restoration, but before I sharpened it.














































That will do for now me thinks.


----------



## DocBailey

*Bob*
I believe you've shown that massive Taylor Bros ripper before (the 1st photo in your post above), but I could look at it once a day

*Andy*
The same goes for that No 3-that's enough steel to build a small car!

My only Taylor Bros saw (since sold)


----------



## Brit

An unrestored 26in Guinea Saw by Taylor Bros. made at the Adelaide Works, Sheffield. This is a 26in saw with 3 1/2 TPI. It was called the "Guinea Saw for the Million". The handle has four split nuts with two medallions which mimic a mid-1700s English guinea with the face of King George III on one side.


----------



## DLK

My contribution to *T*-day Another saw purchased from Bob "the Sorcerer of Saws" Summerfield its a *T*welve inchc W.* T*yzack Sons & *T*urner PLC "*T*alisman" *T*ennon saw .

Cuts great with out additional sharpening. Maybe better when Bob lets me attempt to sharpen it. Apparently I must start on 8 tpi, before 12 tpi, befor 16 tpi and etc. LOL

Anyway can someone tell me what "PLC" means? (Public Limited Company … maybe)


----------



## Brit

*P*ublic *L*imited *C*ompany


----------



## Brit

DEFINITION of 'Public Limited Company - PLC' The standard legal designation of a company which has offered shares to the general public and has limited liability. A Public Limited Company's stock can be acquired by anyone and holders are only limited to potentially lose the amount paid for the shares.


----------



## daddywoofdawg

Is the Bishop's Patent Adjustable Backsaw, a rip saw on one set of teeth?If not a question to the community,Did anyone ever make a Rip saw on one side cross cut on the other?seems like a good Idea.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

One side finer than the other, but as a backsaw can't imagine it's rip. That said, I confess to not giving it a closer look. I will.


----------



## DLK

*Brit* Thanks.


----------



## nakmuay

Hi gents, I was wondering if any of you guys owned or had used the Veritas tenon saw, the ugly mutant looking one 
I'm thinking about getting one during their 15% off sale. Obviously it SHOULD be a good un, but it'd be nice to be sure before I drop the cash…...


----------



## TobyC

> DEFINITION of Public Limited Company - PLC The standard legal designation of a company which has offered shares to the general public and has limited liability. A Public Limited Company s stock can be acquired by anyone and holders are only limited to potentially lose the amount paid for the shares.
> 
> - Brit


Cool!

Andy is the man!!!


----------



## DocBailey

Toby - you're alive!

Where've you been?


----------



## Brit

That's just what I was going to say Doc!

Been too long Toby. I've missed your emoticons dude.


----------



## DocBailey

You know what they say, Andy:

Great Minds ….


----------



## Brit

> Hi gents, I was wondering if any of you guys owned or had used the Veritas tenon saw, the ugly mutant looking one
> I m thinking about getting one during their 15% off sale. Obviously it SHOULD be a good un, but it d be nice to be sure before I drop the cash…...
> 
> - nakmuay


Never used one personally, but this might help you. http://lumberjocks.com/topics/64028


----------



## summerfi

Gentlemen (and ladies too if there are any): I propose the following schedule for the remainder of our alphabetical "Month of Saws".

Saturday 3/20 - *U*. This is the day to post all your unknown saws and any others starting with U.
Sunday 3/21 - *V*. Veritas and other V's.
Monday 3/22 - *W*. A world full of Warranted Superiors.
Tuesday 3/23 - *X*, *Y*, and *Z*. Zeniths and their kin.
Wednesday 3/24 - Any and all saws made by our very own *Lumberjocks*.
Thursday 3/25 - "*Go Back*" day. Post any saws you may have forgotten about as we went through the alphabet. I have at least 3, and perhaps others have some too.
Friday 3/26 - *Saw till* day. Post pics of your saw till, or in my case, my boxes, shelves and drawers. Show us where you keep your saws.
Saturday 3/27 - *Saw sharpening* day. Show us your vise, your sets, your joiners (or is it jointers?), your fancy files and handles, your rake and fleam gauges, and any other saw sharpening paraphernalia you may have.
Sunday 3/28 - Tuesday 3/31 - Take the rest of the month off; you earned it. OR, come here and reminisce about the fantastic saws you've seen this month.


----------



## Brit

Works for me Bob.


----------



## kwigly

*"T*" *T*aylor (J Taylor & Son)
open handle backsaw, with a teeny tiny medallion



























another Taylor (just plain Taylor, but with "V R" and a crown)
a bit rough, with an interesting WS medallion









stella nuther Taylor (J Taylor & Son, again)
with only 2 of 4 medallions remaining, and those pinned with rivets (sigh )









Bob, regarding the "collection". About 6-7 years collecting, almost exclusively locally from local sales and anteek places (less than 1% flea bay). And because I like a bargain, 95% for under 10 bucks, and mostly under $5 (I've had to pass on some nice, but "expensive", saws). I've concentrated more on Canadian made, but there's lots of variety in old saws in Ontario, quite a lot of old English saws. (now its getting harder to find saws I don't already have… but I've started to buy other old tools; planes/eggbeaters/chisels…).


----------



## summerfi

Kwigly, you're fortunate to live where there is a good selection of vintage tools to be had. Where I live the pickens are slim.


----------



## putty

nice batch of S & T saws!!!

Cant wait to see the restoration of that saw with the decorative plate Bob!!


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Trying to unsee this 'S' saw…


----------



## summerfi

^ We've come a long way baby. Too bad it's in the wrong direction. lol


----------



## pastahill

It´s* U* Day so of course in Germany every woodworker had an* Ulmia*. The first saw is before and after. The handle was in bad shape and there where just machine screws in it so i replaced everything. The screws are modified stainless steel carriage bolts and stainless steel split nuts.

before










after



















The next Ulmia was just cleaned and the rivets were replaced with brass screws.



















Next a few *unknown *saws. First is a small dove tail saw. I cleaned the handle, blued the spline and sanded the bad pitted blade and riveted every thing in the traditional german method together, like it was. Sorry, no before pictures. I´m still thinking to replace the blade




























When i said small i mean small









unknown with cheap rivets



















and two small unrestored open handled handsaws


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

^ A pair of table saws? Cool!


----------



## DLK

Has anyone heard from two guys in a garage? I sent e-mail to Dominic trying to purchase a miter saw plate a couple of days ago but there has been no response.


----------



## terryR

I remain in awe of the collection this group has amassed! A joy to watch this all unfold…

My Tyzack 120 with new tote…










My go-to parting tool for lathe work!


----------



## terryR

And another late S saw…Simmonds 28" miter saw. Restored a couple of years ago, but has grown a slight coat of rust at my place…typical of all steel in this 70% humidity environment.










I re-shaped the tote to add the lamb's tongue…still NEED to get myself past the sharpening learning curve…


----------



## TobyC

> Has anyone heard from two guys in a garage? I sent e-mail to Dominic trying to purchase a miter saw plate a couple of days ago but there has been no response.
> 
> - Combo Prof


I talked to Dom yesterday, he's fine. Email a reminder to him, and remember that the saw stuff is what he does in his "spare time", he also has a full time job.


----------



## summerfi

This little fret saw has no name on it, but I believe it is an old one.










This is a Union Hdw. Co. hacksaw.



















A former owner's initials and the date Oct. 1916 are stamped on the saw.










But the really cool thing about this saw is that my grandfather's name and the location Concho, W.Va. are stamped on it. My father was born in the little coal mining community of Concho, West Virginia in 1911, so my grandfather owned this saw when Dad was just a small boy. It must have been after 1916, and I wonder if he knew K.P.


----------



## daddywoofdawg

How about 28-31, show your bandsaw,love seeing those old open wheel saws.some are a work of art.Or just photos even if it's not yours.


----------



## bandit571

Union Mfg Co. Hacksaw









Might need a new blade, though….


----------



## kwigly

"*U*" ; *U*nknown
Those frustrating saws with some identity markings, enough to make you go cross eyed with a magnifying glass, but not quite enough to positively identify its source.

a "Lion" (might be a Monhagen Saw Works or WMC. Raised saw nuts, similar to Doc's "Paragon", but with a slightly different design imprint)


























a "Tiger" 









an "Ideal" (Made in Canada)









an English WS backsaw with a heavy brass back that's one of my favourite user saws, but with no Maker markings (I modified the handle a bit with nibs and lamb's tongue).


----------



## summerfi

I almost forgot about this little guy. An unmarked 8" brass back saw.


----------



## DLK

> Has anyone heard from two guys in a garage? I sent e-mail to Dominic trying to purchase a miter saw plate a couple of days ago but there has been no response.
> 
> - Combo Prof
> 
> I talked to Dom yesterday, he s fine. Email a reminder to him, and remember that the saw stuff is what he does in his "spare time", he also has a full time job.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - TobyC


Thanks. I'll try to be a little more patient.


----------



## jmartel

I passed up on a short crosscut D-23 today that was straight for $10. Needed 1 saw nut. Was that a mistake?


----------



## TobyC

Yes.


----------



## jmartel

There was also a D-8, but it was a later model and had a bit of a bend in the blade. Don't think that one was worth it. I may go back tomorrow to pick up the D-23 then it looks like. Worst case scenario, it's more sharpening/restore practice.


----------



## TobyC




----------



## BigRedKnothead

> Hi gents, I was wondering if any of you guys owned or had used the Veritas tenon saw, the ugly mutant looking one
> I m thinking about getting one during their 15% off sale. Obviously it SHOULD be a good un, but it d be nice to be sure before I drop the cash…...
> 
> - nakmuay


I've had one or two veritas saws. The composite back is a little weird, but there's certainly nothing wrong with the function. They're a great saw for the price. Plus, with the LV return policy, you don't have much to lose.


----------



## jmartel

> Hi gents, I was wondering if any of you guys owned or had used the Veritas tenon saw, the ugly mutant looking one
> I m thinking about getting one during their 15% off sale. Obviously it SHOULD be a good un, but it d be nice to be sure before I drop the cash…...
> 
> - nakmuay


I've got the dovetail saw and it's been great. No complaints from me. Obviously it's not a traditional look, but I don't know if that will bother you


----------



## terryR

Sorry for being behind…I think Alabama is rubbing off on me! 

How could I forget this S saw? 
John Spear. Image stolen from Bob's photobucket account.
4ppi rip, and sharp as broken glass!










circa 1860, but lovingly restored by The Bob.
only used ONCE thus far since it's a MAN SIZE tool…


----------



## summerfi

When used regularly, that saw will give you some big biceps Terry. Just sharpening it had me sweating. The handle is sized for Big Red's hands. It has a cool medallion, so forgive me for posting it.


----------



## summerfi

So today is V day. I recently restored and sold a V saw to another LJ, and since I haven't seen him on this thread for quite some time, I'll go ahead and post it. Otherwise, I would have no V saw to show.

This is a 14" Vickers brass back. There were one or two Vickers in old British saw history, but this one is a brand name of R. Groves & Sons and was made around 1900.


----------



## kwigly

"*V*" ; *V*ulcan Saw Mfg Co, *V*ulcan Saw Works (a Harvey W Peace product, saw No 15)
Interesting handle, with riveted strips holding the wooden grip. (Hankin Patent #311435)
[Disston continued to produce this saw as the D-24 after taking over the National Saw Co, and Atkins also produced it as the No 44 pruning saw ] 


















secondary etch "Trade Mark, Set and Filed, Ready for Use" 


















also have some *V*ictory saws around somewhere (Disston), but I'm sure somebody can post a better example than mine


----------



## terryR

Bob, that Spear is certainly a Beast! I'm not sure my post-op back will allow my biceps to grow much larger!


BTW, all your restores are amazing! I've been practicing with wipe on poly lately to improve my finishes…

So, what's the sideways U S E stamp above mean?


----------



## summerfi

More than one British sawmaker used the mark USE on their saws. Here is a sideways secondary stamp on my Taylor Brothers.










And here it is on Kevin's R. Groves & Sons.










From what I've read, even the experts aren't sure what it means. One interpretation is the literal meaning, the saw is made for use. Another interpretation is the saw is made for U. S. Export. It could mean something different entirely, or different makers could have attached a different meaning to it. British sawmakers also sometimes put whimsical marks on their saws, such as a picture of a bear with the words "in mind" (i.e. bear in mind). I'll have to look up some other examples. Anything to sell a saw in the competitive 19th century world of saw making.


----------



## DLK

My sad contribution to *V*-day: Vermont american. (It cuts well, has set and can be resharpened, so I think it counts as a saw, even if its only 35 years old.)


















Red sticker says it cost $9.39 new, back in 1980. I was thinking I'd replace the plastic handle, but oddly it feels pretty nice. So perhaps my time is best spent elsewhere.

O.K. back to regularly scheduled awesome saws.


----------



## jmartel

Went back and picked up that D-23. It's 20" blade, 11tpi crosscut.



















Etch is in pretty good condition. Couldn't get a very good photo of it, but this should give you an idea.










Backside has some paint overspray on it. And it's missing a saw nut. Anyone have an extra they are willing to give up? I'll gladly toss a few bucks your way.


----------



## summerfi

PM me your address jmart. I should have one I can send you, no cost. Are they brass or brass plated?


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Today's flea market find is (so far) unknown. There's a mark, but it's not legible yet. Love this handle, paid $1 for it:


----------



## kwigly

Don (combo prof),
Thanks for posting that Vermont American saw,
I think you may have provided the answer for that one "*unknown*" medallion at the end of Bob's "Saw Medallion Reference Guide" list http://lumberjocks.com/summerfi/blog/39861

[and if it cuts well, and feels good,....then its a good/great saw, and nothing to be sad about at all ! ]


----------



## terryR

> More than one British sawmaker used the mark USE on their saws. Here is a sideways secondary stamp on my Taylor Brothers.
> 
> - summerfi


I suppose 'made for use' is just too simple an answer?  Could certainly be for Yankee Export.

my V-saw… veritas DT saw…have to admit this guy has not impressed me for $25. The tang bends too easily…guess I can fix that, so shouldn't expect much more than sharp teeth for the cost?


----------



## summerfi

> I think you may have provided the answer for that one "*unknown*" medallion at the end of Bob s "Saw Medallion Reference Guide"
> 
> - kwigly


Well I'll be darned. Nice catch kwigly. I wouldn't have picked up on that.


----------



## bandit571

Smitty: Perhaps it MIGHT be a Union Mfg Co. saw???









Garage sale item, cost me a whole $1…..might need to buy a new blade, though…


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Looks identical, Bandit, all the way down to price!


----------



## Buckethead

V day means bucket gets to play.

Veritas:









I just happened to be in "the shop", and sat down for a break from mulching and intermittent dovetailing. Gazed at my LJ for a sec. This might be an aberration for Classic saw enthusiasts, but I promise, she cuts nice.


----------



## jmartel

> PM me your address jmart. I should have one I can send you, no cost. Are they brass or brass plated?
> 
> - summerfi


Can't tell about the plating. Maybe this would help? Attacked one of them with Nevrdull. I'll shoot you a PM. Let me know if you need to see something else.


----------



## DLK

> Don (combo prof),
> Thanks for posting that Vermont American saw,
> I think you may have provided the answer for that one "*unknown*" medallion at the end of Bob s "Saw Medallion Reference Guide" list http://lumberjocks.com/summerfi/blog/39861
> 
> [and if it cuts well, and feels good,....then its a good/great saw, and nothing to be sad about at all ! ]
> 
> - kwigly





> I think you may have provided the answer for that one "*unknown*" medallion at the end of Bob s "Saw Medallion Reference Guide"
> 
> - kwigly
> 
> Well I ll be darned. Nice catch kwigly. I wouldn t have picked up on that.
> 
> - summerfi


Glad to be of service. Who knew?


----------



## jmartel

And my contribution to V-day.










Nothing fancy, but it works quite well.


----------



## Tim457

> PM me your address jmart. I should have one I can send you, no cost. Are they brass or brass plated?
> 
> - summerfi
> 
> Can t tell about the plating. Maybe this would help? Attacked one of them with Nevrdull.
> - jmartel


Try a magnet jmart. Brass isn't magnetic, but if they plated steel it would be.


----------



## summerfi

Time for another list update, lest I get too far behind.

*A*
American Saws-C. Albee, E.C. Atkins, Atkins/Phoenix Superior

British Saws-Atkin & Sons, W. H. Armitage & Co., A. Ashton & Sons

Canadian Saws-E.C. Atkins

*B*
American Saws-Bad Axe, Josiah Bakewell, George H. Bishop, Bluegrass, E.M. Boynton, Bridge City Tool Works, Bridge Tool Co., bulldogs

British Saws-Beardshaw & Son, Alfred Beckett & Sons, S. Biggin & Sons, Bowdon & Co., J. Butcher, W. Butcher

German Saws-Baier

*C*
American Saws-Cincinnati Saw Company, Columbian Warranted, Craftsman, S H Crane

British Saws-L. Clarkson & Co., Cowell and Chapman

*D*
American Saws-J.D. Darlington, Diamond Edge, Disston (Nos. 4, 5, 7, 8, 9, 10, 12, 68, 99, 112; D's 7, 8, 15, 23, 95, 100, 115; K's 3,4; R-1, Great American)

British Saws-Henry Darby, Drabble & Sanderson

Canadian Saws-Disston (Acme 120, Canadian Boy)

*E*
American Saws-Erik Florip

British Saws-Moses Eadon, J. Eagers, Eclipse, Ericson

Canadian Saws-Eatonia

*F*
American Saws- Farwell, Ozmun, Kirk & Co., Joseph Flint (Rochester, NY), E. Florip

British Saws-I. Fearn, Fenton & Marsdens, G. Fisher & Co, T. Flinn, Footprint, T. Fox

Canadian Saws-Joseph Flint (St. Catherines, ON)

German Saws-Farmer Säge

*G*
American Saws-Glen-Drake, Good As Gold (Peace), Gramercy, Great Neck

British Saws-T.J. Gardner, C. Garlick & Sons, E. Garlick & Son, Chas. Gray & Sons, R. Groves & Sons

*H*
British Saws-B. Hawksworth, Hazeon, E. Henry, E. Hughes

*I*
British Saws-Richard Ibbotson, Robert Ibbotson

Canadian Saws-Ideal

*J*
American Saws-Jackson, C.E. Jennings

British Saws-Jackson, Stacey & Smith

*K*
American Saws-Keen Kutter, Knew Concepts

*L*
American Saws-Legal Tender, Lie Nielsen, Lion, Livingston Mfg. Co.

*M*
American Saws-Master Qualaity, Medallion Toolworks, Monhagan Saw Works, Mound Tool

British Saws-William Marples & Sons, Alex Marshall, Moulson Brothers

Canadian Saws-Merrick-Anderson

*N*
American Saws-National Hardware, Nicholson, J.H. Noble, Norvell's

British Saws-Naylor, Vickers & Co.

*O*
American Saws- Olson, Orion

*P*
American Saws-Harvey W. Peace, Pennsylvania Saw Corp.

British Saws-Joseph Peace

German Saws-Pastahill Toolworks, PHM, Wilhelm Putsch

*Q*
American Saws-Quigley

*R*
American Saws-Richardson Brothers, Riverside

British Saws-A. Rosling

*S*
American Saws-Sears, Shark Saw, Sheffield Saw Works, E.C. Simmons, Simonds, Smith Lyon & Field, Stanley, Supplee

British Saws-Robert Sorby, John Spear, Spear & Jackson

Canadian Saws-T.F. Shurly Co., Shurly & Dietrich, R.H. Smith

Swedish Saws-Sandvik

*T*
American Saws-Tiger

British Saws-Taylor, Taylor Brothers, J. Taylor & Son, Thomas Turner & Co., W. Tyzack, Sons & Turner

*U*
American Saws-Union Mfg. Co.

British Saws-Unknown

German Saws-Ulmia, Unknown

*V*
American Saws-Vermont American, Vulcan Saw Mfg. Co.

British Saws-Vickers

Canadian Saws-Veritas


----------



## jmartel

I think Veritas should be under Canadian saws.

Tim, definitely solid brass then. Non-magnetic.


----------



## summerfi

OK, made the change. Thanks.


----------



## Tugboater78

If a man was to take on cutting new teeth on a plate, an inexperienced man, what would be the most effective (cost effective too) way to do so? 









This saw.. needs to fill the slot in my arsenal of a rip tenon saw
..
i think i saw a vid where Paul Sellers cut new teeth in one, may need to find and rewatch. If it will wear down files inreckon i should stock up? Whats a good tpi/ppi for such?



















Also got a split nut i need to replace on my other backsaw..


----------



## summerfi

Tug - to cut new teeth on your saw, you'll need the following: saw vise (can be as simple as a couple of boards if you're only doing one saw), flat file to joint the saw, triangular file of appropriate size, file handle, small block for a rake gauge, saw set, and a tooth spacing template off the internet. That looks like a 14" saw, and to make it a tenon saw it should be 11 or 12 ppi. One good file should do that and several more saws. Be sure to watch Andy's excellent saw filing video.

For the split nut contact ErikF. He makes good ones.


----------



## Tugboater78

Ok.. where does one find a decent saw set? Seen some vintage ones on ebay and other sites but leary of buying. i have a small, maybe 9" saw vice, and need to rewatch brits video then.

Before i left for work i acquired LV's saw filing kit so good on that part i think and i have a bunch of new old stock single and double cut bastard files.









Edit:
Oh looked at LV again.. seems i missed that they sell saw sets..


----------



## daddywoofdawg

Could it be a slogan USE VICKERE
or USExport.
I wonder if the crown has anything to do with it like a stamp on sterling silver.


----------



## summerfi

I believe Lee Valley sells the Somax saw sets. I actually like my Somax's better than my Stanleys. The only issue with them is the anvil is not tempered and tends to deform over time. If you can only get one, get the blue one that is made for smaller teeth.


----------



## Tugboater78

Thanks bob ill look into it.









Blue sawset order placed


----------



## summerfi

Well here we are on *W* already. This show is getting close to the final act.

My Wheatman & Smith panel saw. I love this saw.




























This saw is a Thomas White. Rather than a saw maker, he was a hardware dealer in Plymouth, England. This saw came out of a Scottish ship's carpenter's tool chest, and is so pitted that it's good for little more than a wall hanger.










This is my Woodrough & McParlin that still has part of the label on the handle. It's a high quality saw.




























This is my only Warranted Superior saw, or at least the medallion says Warranted Superior. The walnut handle was made by my dad when he was a young man, probably in the 1930's or 40's.


----------



## DocBailey

love the flecks in that Wheatman & Smith handle


----------



## kwigly

*V* ; *V*ariety , (display of some of my small saws)










*W* ; *W*elland Vale



























Frederick *W*illey
I especially like the address part of the blade stamp "Opposite Corn Exchange". (Now I'm wondering about saw stamps with addresses like "Beside Town Hall", or "Behind Cathedral", or "Below Black Castle" etc)


----------



## DLK

> I believe Lee Valley sells the Somax saw sets. I actually like my Somax s better than my Stanleys. The only issue with them is the anvil is not tempered and tends to deform over time. If you can only get one, get the blue one that is made for smaller teeth.
> 
> - summerfi


Can you temper the anvil? Could you for example place the whole tool in an oven and oven temper it? Or use a touch?


----------



## summerfi

I don't know Don. I've heard of people making new anvils for the Somax, but not of anyone tempering the stock anvil. I suspect it's of such a grade of metal that it wouldn't take a temper. The Somax is a clone of the old British Eclipse No. 77 which I think has excellent steel in the anvil. I'd love to have one or two of those, but you don't see many in the U.S. and shipping from the UK is high.


----------



## WayneC

My Walker & Pearson Saw. This was part of a lot of tools I picked up on eBay for $20.


----------



## john2005

Its no Wheatman, but its my only "W" saw. Wensloff & Sons


----------



## pastahill

Talking about* W*heatmann I almost forgot that i have one nice little DT saw




























The next is a German *W*arranted Superior. It´s a 28´ beast. The handle was almost gone, just a few fragments were still there, so i made a wallnut handle for this saw. I have no guess who made this saw, from the cheap pressed on medallion i think that it is a german saw.




























My last saw I just received a few days ago *W*arranted Superior with no etching or stamp. I think the saw is not so old maybe someone can identify her.


----------



## terryR

Wow, a Wenzloff and Sons!
Sure wish they were still in business.

Those anvils shouldn't be too difficult to harden, if they are removable. I'll look at mine tomorrow in the shop. If they are made of carbon steel, they can be treated.

Just to clarify…tempering is done after heat treating to soften the metal since heat treating causes such hardness it also creates brittleness.


----------



## lateralus819

Anyone know the worth of a Harvey peace panel saw with the brass under the handle? A co-worker said he has one and it has the bigger taper on it.


----------



## chrisstef

$30-40 in decent condition is my guess Lat.


----------



## DocBailey

> Wow, a Wenzloff and Sons!
> Sure wish they were still in business.


What makes you think that, Terry?


----------



## richardwootton

I was thinking Wenzloff and sons was still in operation also. Wasn't it another small hand saw company that closed down?


----------



## richardwootton

Maybe Adria?


----------



## DocBailey

Are you thinking of Adria?

Judging from the site, Wenzloff is behind in filling (maybe even taking) orders. But Lee Valley sells Wenzloff saws on LV's own site.

(looks like I was slow on the trigger on that post!)


----------



## DLK

*Bob* and *Terry*:

Concerning the Somax saw sets from Lee Valley.

I wrote Lee Valley:
Concerning your saw sets: 60K02.01 and 60K02.02 . I understand that the anvil is not tempered. So I am wondering if it would be possible for me to temper it. Can you tell me what steel was used?

They responded:
Thank you for your email. The anvil is actually already hardened steel, it will not need to be tempered.

I checked that they are Somax (I bought them a while back).

So are they hardened or Not?

P.S. I swear I posted this but I can't find it now. Maybe its in the wrong forum. Maybe I never hit "post this reply"


----------



## Lucasd2002

My w saw. This was my dad's saw, and, assuming it's old enough, my grandfather used it also.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

I've got some big dubs.

An English C. Woollen saw I bought from Bob.

















-
My great, great grandfather's warranted superior panel saw. Likely made by Simmonds, and blogged about here. 

















Last, warranted superior miter saw. Wally made a nice paduak handle for me. 
















-
I'll save the "Westfall" masterpieces for LJ day


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Nice W saws today!

My fave 'Warranted Superior" saws include these three from my grandfather and, possibly, one of them or two may be from his father as well.










Another WS that shows signs of incredible wear on the handle. Note the wheat that's softened / no longer sharply defined.










A full shot, then a shot of the back showing wear from an extended index finger during use.



















Finally, a big, honking Winchester:


----------



## summerfi

Don K - All I can tell you is the anvils on my Somax sets appear to be chrome or nickel plated metal of some sort. The plating eventually breaks up along the edge of the anvil and the relatively soft metal beneath it begins to deform from the pressure of the hammer pressing on the saw tooth. I've read numerous internet posts about the same thing, and for awhile one person (can't remember who now) was making replacement anvils out of hardened steel and sharing them with other Somax owners. Lee Valley may be simply repeating what the manufacturer tells them without having the first hand knowledge of a user. That's not to say that, other than the anvil issue, I don't like the design of the Somax. It is an old tried and true design copied from Eclipse. Even with the soft anvils, if you were only doing saws occasionally the Somax would probably last you for years. I just took these pictures of the anvils from mine, and like they say, pictures don't lie.


----------



## jmartel

Here's the D-23 after about an hour or so of cleaning up. Just took 150 grit sandpaper to the handle to take off the finish and to make the handle nicer to hold like my No. 12. Nevrdull to the bolts/medallion cleaned it up pretty nicely, and 150 grit to the plate to clean off the majority of the rust. Any way to make the etch stand out more?


----------



## TheFridge

BRKs new saw is a beauty Bob.


----------



## terryR

Oh, I thought Wenzloff went to retirement…I hope I'm mistaken! I was looking for brass parts at the start of the previous saw swap, and everything online was not in stock. Seems like we discussed them here…but my memory fails unless I write stuff down. 

Yeah, LV is just reading a note from Somax, it sounds. I have files that are each hardened to a specific grade, can easily scratch the anvil and give a numeric score. That's the only way I can know if heat treating has worked, or tempering for that matter. Will test my anvils this AM…

Bob, how long did it take you to notice the damage to the anvils? They certainly look plated in that photo. Seems making a disc from O1 wouldn't be too difficult…of course, it may rust between uses. perhaps the reason for a plated metal on new ones?


----------



## summerfi

Terry, I bought my sets used, and there was already some damage when I got them. The damage has gotten progressively worse over the past couple of years that I've had them.

Here is a thread where guys are talking about attempting to heat treat the Somax anvil and making new anvils out of better steel.


----------



## summerfi

Well here we are on XYZ day. This may be a tough one. I only have one picture to share, and it's of cheap X-Acto saws. The handle on the bottom one was made by my grandfather, so that's something positive.


----------



## terryR

I'll admil this is no scientific test…I only have ONE Somax to assess. But, the anvil on my gold Somax (model 250?) is rock hard! Certainly plated with a shiny coating which scratches off easily. However, the metal underneath measures 60-65 Hrc, about as hard as you can get steel without it simply crumbling from being brittle.










I guess the wear on anvils is just to be expected?


----------



## DLK

Gee *Bob* I would think there would be lots of these *Z*-saws that went on sale from Woodcraft last year:



















Maybe we forbid Japanese saws?


----------



## summerfi

LOL Don, no discrimination here. All saws are welcome.

Terry, that's interesting. Maybe Somax has improved their anvils in recent years. I haven't tried filing mine, but I'm pretty sure I could. People on other forums have talked about filing theirs easily. I hope they've been improved because they are otherwise a good set. A good anvil should not deform or show significant wear under normal use.


----------



## DLK

I wonder if there is manufacturing variation in the "Somax plant". So some may just have better steel then others.


----------



## terryR

Hard to reach any conclusions, Bob. I'd need a larger sample to scratch test with my files. Or, more folks who talk about hardening to own files. I've noticed several times that just heating metals to a certain color is tough to use as a benchmark of true heat. Orange, red-orange, bright orange are too hard to distinguish from person to person in different shops. Using a magnet to determine when metal is no longer magnetic is a better test of reaching critical temp.

Also, I've heated steel many times, but failed to harden it. No way to tell without testing it with a file that has a known hardness.

The one photo I saw on WoodNet of someone shaping their anvil, the guy was using diamond stones. Certainly harder than steel. If a file can shape the anvil, the anvil must be softer.

Oh well…back to saws….....


----------



## kwigly

No X,Y,Z saws here (that I remember), [X = "warranted e*x*tra" is about as close as I can get.] 
Someone should have a "Zenith" from Marshall-Wells, 
or maybe a "Zyto" or a "Zephyr"


----------



## bandit571

Might have slept through a few, happens working the night shift..
Anyway, as for W









A 14" Warranted Superior crosscut saw, leaning up against a Dunlap plane from West Germany ( metric width iron, no less) and compared to the full length WS









Little saw, plus big, compfy handle









This is the WS 14" backsaw that came with the GEM mitrebox. The saw behind it is an Unknown









Hanger hole an all. There is a trace of an etch on the big saw, something like a pair of circles, one inside the other, with a double lined ribbon under it. Handle is rather plain, though









Another 14" saw, with a metal plate rivetted on, Unknown saw









Metal plate. There once was white lettering on the handle









But long gone now. As for that thing laying in front of it?









Something about "1895"???


----------



## summerfi

Not many XYZ saws as expected. It seems like a golden opportunity for someone to open up the Xavier, Yakov, Zebulon & Sons Saw Works. Tomorrow will be a better day though. Tomorrow we will see the crème de la crème…Lumberjock-made saws. Following the 2014 saw swap and the recent dovetail tool swap, I know there are lots of closet saw makers in our midst. It will be a treat to see them all posted in one spot. I'm looking forward to celebrating our very own home-grown LJ saws.


----------



## terryR

Wow, I get to go first on LJ Day?

A wild one from the swaps…plate filed rip by ErikF…exotic walnut tote by Red. Sorry, but I cannot keep up with the lengths and ppi of my backsaws! Hmmm…spreadsheet time?










The copper and walnut is becoming a favorite combo in my shop!

Re-posting of ErikF's sweet 'bastard' DT saw from the most recent swap…A great user!


----------



## terryR

Bet we see a LOT of Erik's plates today…

Here was my entry in the previous saw swap. Another Erik DT plate with tote by me from Bolivian Rosewood.










Now in HammerThumb's shop out west…


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Saw Wally saws…








-









I think I've posted all of My ErikF saws. So, here's the cocobolo Gent saw I just received from Bob this week. His pics do it justice…sorta. It might be the best looking tool I own.


----------



## ToddJB

LJ AgentTwitch built this for me for the most recent swap. It's awesome.


----------



## summerfi

Sweet looking saws Terry! When you get so many saws you have to list them on a spreadsheet, some would say you have a problem. I say you're off to a good start. lol

Guess I'll list a couple of saws here. This first one is the first saw I ever made. It is the saw that was recently sold to a fellow at Ft. McKavett, TX to be used for projects at the historical site. The plate is made from a worn out D-8 plate. The handle is sycamore.




























This one is the second saw I made. It's a reproduction of the panel saw in Smith's Key. I recently sold this saw to a fellow in Maryland who is putting together a tool chest of 17th and 18th century tools. The handle is East Indian satinwood.




























This pair of gent's saws are the first saws I had etched with my logo. They are the first saws in the two sets of 10 matching saws (now 11 saws) that I plan to make.


----------



## summerfi

Love the padauk and ebony on those saws above. Red that's quite a compliment considering you have some outstanding hand tools in your shop. Thank you!


----------



## ToddJB

Gorgeous saws, Bob. Do the brass caps on the ends of the gents saw have function or is it just a decorative feature?

Oh and its African Blackwood.


----------



## summerfi

They're just for decoration Todd.


----------



## theoldfart

Bob, that end decoration might look even better with a medallion maybe?


----------



## Brit

Wow! You guys have been busy. I've been distracted by my wedding anniversary, the wife's birthday and a nasty case of food poisoning. Totally floored me. Still, nice to catch up.


----------



## Brit

*Bob* - If the rest of the saws in those two sets turn out as good as those two gents saws, I think you will have the nicest nest of saws ever made. I can't wait for the group shot at the end.


----------



## summerfi

Yikes, Andy. Glad you're feeling better. Was the food poisoning connected to the other two events?

Thanks, but I don't seem to be making much progress on the rest of the sets. I'm finding that having only 24 hours in a day is a severe limitation on my saw making. ;-)

Kevin, that's a good idea. I was also thinking about maybe mother of pearl.


----------



## Brit

No thankfully it wasn't Bob. It has put me right off food though. I've only eaten a slice of toast since Sunday evening. Hopefully, I'll get my appetite back soon.


----------



## Hammerthumb

Sorry but I have not kept up with this thread. Glad I made it for the LJ day.

A couple of saws from TerryR:










And a bowsaw I made for Waho in the saw swap:


----------



## TobyC

I've heard that English food was bad, but I didn't think it was THAT bad!


----------



## Brit

*Toby* - Proper English food is some of the best food on the planet IMO. On Saturday night I went to a 5* English restaurant and the food was out of this world. Mind you I paid for it too. )

Sunday night, we went for a curry and it was after this meal that Gandhi got his revenge.

Isn't it about time you changed your avatar again. You've had that one for at least 6 months. LOL.

Anyhow back to saws.


----------



## TobyC

I was just poking you with a stick!









I'll change it just for you buddy!!!


----------



## putty

I can play this game!!! Serial Number 1, stock handle though! I'm envious Red!
It's a beautiful saw Bob, thanks!










This is a kit saw from Erik F. Nice little saw and is comfortable to use.


----------



## putty

Brit, I love English food…Standing rib roast with Yorkshire pudding, fish and chips, and pub food! Although the best food I had in London was at a little place called the Mexican-Polish embassy. It was a Polish restaurant near the Mexican embassy, they served authentic Polish food.


----------



## summerfi

Well, some very nice LJ-made saws today. I'm sure there are more that we didn't see, but I guess not everyone reads the saw thread.

So tomorrow is "go back" day. If there's a saw you forgot about as we went through the alphabet, you can go back and post it tomorrow. I have four small saws to post. Hopefully others have a few as well. Then the following day we'll be posting saw tills and other modes of storage. That should be fun and interesting.


----------



## donwilwol

the first Wally back saw EVER!


----------



## summerfi

Alrighty, here are my go backs. First picture is two coping saws. Top one is a Disston, bottom one an E.C. Atkins.










And here are two little saws. I forget what type you call the top one. It is an Eclipse with an Eberle blade. The bottom one is a Footprint brand pad saw. These are common in England, but you don't see them much in the U.S. This one has a broken blade and I can't find a replacement without ordering from the UK.


----------



## Tim457

Here's my Disston thumbhole D-8 I finally finished restoring. I got this a year ago or more for $2 at an estate sale. It's a 1896-1917 by the medallion, but since the etch doesn't have the M. DE F. and M. IND RGTRADA abbreviations that puts it sometime before the 1910s. The handle finish is several coats of Tried and True varnish oil mix. I may add wax on top but haven't decided. I really like the T&T varnish oil. After stripping the previous peeling finish the handle looked dead, dry, and lifeless. I was worried I had scraped off too much patina, but I'm happy that it still looks old.


----------



## summerfi

Nice saw and a beautiful restore job Tim!


----------



## Brit

That's a beauty Tim and I agree with Bob, wonderful restoration.


----------



## Tim457

Thanks guys. Unfortunately the worst rust on the whole plate was right over the etch. Couldn't remove any more of the staining without taking the etch out completely. I may end up darkening the etch, but I'll have to paint the bluing in with an artists brush so I don't darken the staining as well.


----------



## terryR

Here's a wonderful Wally saw that I'd love to add…Superb work on the Bubinga tote and very sharp teeth! I reach for this ripper over my LN due to the balance and finer cut! sorry LN…love your tools EXCEPT the saws.










And a 'Brown's' panel saw, made by Disston. One of their Keystone line of saws, but this guy has a sweet tone when struck. cleaned and sharpened nicely by Wally.


----------



## terryR

^wow, I hate what Photobucket does to my images.
gotta get my D-SLR a new lens!


----------



## jmartel

Quick saw set question: Will a fine tooth set work ok on 11tpi? The Lee Valley ones says 12+ tpi for the fine one. I'd prefer to not buy 2 if I don't have to. At least until I get into more handheld rip saws that would require a different setter.


----------



## bandit571

One of the old saws that went through the Rehab Center…









The Pacesetter and the Rancher also came through. Seems I did quite a few saws a while back…









A repair of the handle on this 5.5 ppi D-8









The etch from the Pacemaker/Keystone









Might have been a D-23? Been awhile..









I think this was a N0. 76???









And the Steigo/Disston Hybrid No. 1


----------



## DLK

Some go backs:










No marks on the top 4. The two coping saws are Great Neck and Craftsman.

All rescued from garage sales last summer (June-August 2014).


----------



## terryR

And another Disston Keystone saw…had the orange/black tote which was mounted crooked.










So, a new tote from walnut…my first or second tote? Longest lamb's tongue in history…


----------



## terryR

Taking this guy to the shop as soon as it stops pouring rain. 










Custom handle by Mr. Cocobolo himself (Red)...gotta remove that color from the saw's frame!


----------



## summerfi

> Quick saw set question: Will a fine tooth set work ok on 11tpi? The Lee Valley ones says 12+ tpi for the fine one. I d prefer to not buy 2 if I don t have to. At least until I get into more handheld rip saws that would require a different setter.
> 
> - jmartel


The fine tooth set should work just fine on your 11 ppi.


----------



## TheFridge

Can anyone tell me anything about a saw with lady liberty? And victory etched on the plate?


----------



## chrisstef

Disston 15 and D 115 are victory saws but no statue of liberty on it fridge. It does have an eagle over the liberty bell though.

If thats what ya got. Buy it if its reasonable.


----------



## Buckethead

> And another Disston Keystone saw…had the orange/black tote which was mounted crooked.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, a new tote from walnut…my first or second tote? Longest lamb s tongue in history…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - terryR


I was cruising thru just glancing because I was so far behind then I saw this totes amazing walnut replacement handle and said unto my self: HOLY CRAP THAT IS AN AMAZING LOOKING HANDLE I WONDER WHO MADE THAT

Then I scrolled up enough to see it was, of course, Terry. What fine work you do, sir.


----------



## terryR

Thanks, Bucket.
I just have to watch out for that tongue…it brushes the lumber sometimes!


----------



## Buckethead

We can just call that lambs tongue gene simmons.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

My 'Go Back' shows the two saws in the chest till. A DE No. 134 and a Disston D23.


----------



## DLK

How does this chest till work. Is it a drawer or a lid to a tool chest. I'm out of room and it gives me an idea.


----------



## bandit571

About like this?









With a Pheonix Superior Ship saw, and am older D-8 ( 1941-1947)


----------



## summerfi

By popular request, today is saw till day. Let's see 'em. Not just your till, but wherever you store your saws. Maybe someone will get a good idea from seeing what you've done.

As for myself, well I realize showing these pictures confirms that I have a sickness. But you guys already knew that. I outgrew my till within 6 months of building it, and now I have saws everywhere. I intend to build a new 5' wide till within the next few months. I'm just waiting for my lumber to finish drying. Really I am.


----------



## DLK

Is tomorrow saw vice and saw set day?
(iLOL, I meant saw *vise* day, I guess today is saw *vice* day)


----------



## summerfi

Yep, that's right Don.


----------



## DLK

I quickly put this saw till together last summer to get stuff off my work bench:










It didn't work:










By the way all the *old* hand tools you see here. I collected in 10 months (June 1, 2014 - April 1, 2014). Most during Summer 2014 and most from garage sales. (The only online purchases are, the Stanley #45 from Smitty, the Stanley #6 from UpChuck, a hand crank grinder from Don W, and two back saws from Bob.) Brace and bits, as well as chisels are not yet up for display. I think I may have to build some chests and cabinets. Truly amazing and rewarding experience to collect and refurbish old tools. (Its also addictive.)


----------



## chrisstef

Far from beautiful and totally functional but until the time comes to make a new one … here she is.


----------



## Brit

Errrr…..I'm between saw tills at the moment, but my here's my last saw storage solution.










They are currently all in crates until I build a proper saw till.


----------



## terryR

I like the inside of your shop, Andy!

Here is my humble till for backsaws…already too small. Hoping to use my new wall for a proper till…










Painting by my power tool only buddy.


----------



## terryR

Bob, I honestly don't see your problem! Shop looks just fine to me…

Hmmm…already getting ideas from Don's till. never seen one without sides.


----------



## DLK

I thought the "no-sides" made for a more pleasing display. Same is true for the bench and block planes, but alas it has taken up to much room. On the other hand I have 8 more feet of wall I can hang tools on.


----------



## Mosquito

I feel like somewhere I have more pictures than this…










Already full lol


----------



## ToddJB

Pallet till










Working on a system


----------



## DLK

Psst …terryR…. you could hand the bottom rail on one french cleat and then hang the notched separator on another cleat. Thereby doing away with the sides and the back.


----------



## dbray45

This one works for me - until I change it


----------



## TobyC

*ToddJB*

I like those!


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Very nice, David!

I'll post some saw till pics later in the day, and include for Don K the till that goes in the chest.

Bob, I think there's room for quite a few more!


----------



## summerfi

> Bob, I honestly don t see your problem! Shop looks just fine to me…
> 
> - terryR





> Bob, I think there s room for quite a few more!
> 
> - Smitty_Cabinetshop


Whew! That's a relief. Now I can keep on piling saws up without feeling guilty.


----------



## dbray45

Thanks Smitty

It is going to undergo a change soon, just haven't decided what it will be.


----------



## ToddJB

Thanks Toby

David, that's a stunning tool chest


----------



## GMatheson

Here is my little saw till. Still needs some drawers to hold my sharpening supplies and some glass panel doors before I call it finished.


----------



## john2005

My humble contribution. Currently cleaning up the saws. Last pic is the first one done. Still needs sharpening though. #7


----------



## ToddJB

Man, Greg and John those are awesome.


----------



## dbray45

Thanks Todd,

It is drastically undersized, I had more chisels in it - took them out and put them on the wall near the work bench after I cut myself on one of the blades. Have more planes, chisels, and saws to get put up. Need to add some space for inshaves, scorps, etc… Crap, need a bigger wall too.

When I am done, will have one for carving, one for furniture, one for the upholstery stuff, one for turning, and a cabinet for the misc stuff. This basement isn't going to make it.


----------



## planepassion

I have different tills.

One till for backsaws, located for ready use above my workbench.









One located near the side door porch where I put my sawbench to use with full-sized handsaws. These are my user handsaws, 3 rip and 3 XC.









A till prototype I still use to house my 2nd-rate saws…which I do use occasionally for rough work.









And pegs to house miterbox saws when not in use along with other saws I like and plan to keep.


----------



## ToddJB

^so that's where all the saws in Denver have gone


----------



## theoldfart

I have tills in a few locations, my ATC for one









I modified the interior from my original setup









In the Dutch lid









And the Dutch main compartment









Future expansion will be here









Until then the ubiquitous peg board


----------



## Buckethead

> Is tomorrow saw vice and saw set day?
> (iLOL, I meant saw *vise* day, I guess today is saw *vice* day)
> 
> - Combo Prof


lolololol


----------



## john2005

I don't know why, but I think I like Kevin's lid the best. You can take that however you want.


----------



## theoldfart

John, in the interest of full disclosure I stole the design from Brad! Also look at Chris Schwartz's Dutch chest.


----------



## DocBailey

*ToddJB, John2005*-the materials and finish on your tills seem to complement the vintage saws perfectly.

*Kevin* - that Dutch chest is nice (and great color)


----------



## ToddJB

Thanks Doc, no finish, just weathered.


----------



## putty

Nice saw tills everyone! I'm getting a lot of good ideas

Here is the till for my hand saws, it is very organized…box in front is good saws, box in rear are project saws.
It took only minutes to make. If anyone likes, I have Sketchup plans available.










Backsaws don't have a home of their own either, sitting on a roll around cart with homeless planes.










So much to do…so little time.


----------



## Tim457

You guys and your impressive saw tills. They are all really nice btw. Mine is more like Andy and Putty's. The benefit is it only took a few minutes to put together and does hold the saws for easy access. Below the ugly you can see the top of one of my tool chests that has space for three full size saws, but needs to be repaired. The leather straps for the saw toes were stapled in and those have pulled out enough times and worn away enough wood they need to be moved and redone better. Another project for another day.


----------



## theoldfart

Doc, thank you

Putty, Chris Schwartz is writing a book called Furniture of Necessity, you should send him your plans.

Opps, forgot one till. The ATC lid


----------



## BigRedKnothead

I keeps my saws here….


----------



## TheFridge

> Disston 15 and D 115 are victory saws but no statue of liberty on it fridge. It does have an eagle over the liberty bell though.
> 
> If thats what ya got. Buy it if its reasonable.
> 
> - chrisstef


Thanks, guy just showed it to me when I went to buy some chisels. He had a bedrock #2 in great shape for sale too. Went to ask him about his post on Craigslist about hand saws and walked into hand tool heaven. Though there is quite a few people on here his collection wouldn't rival, it was still pretty extensive.


----------



## summerfi

I'll be gone most of Saturday, so I'll post my saw sharpening stuff tonight.

This is my simple vise, but it works well.










Here are some saw sets.










Some files, jointers and gauge blocks.










And here is my Foley retoother. I use the retoother quite a bit, but I've not yet attempted to use any of the other Foley equipment.


----------



## planepassion

ToddJB, I know! Though in my own defense, it's been a year since I picked up my last saw. Saw acquisition comes in spurts to me for some reason. And I'm to the point where I need to start culling the herd.

TOF, I like what you've done with your Dutch tool chest lid. Especially, the addition of a pencil holder.

Summerfi has it going on. A panoply of saw sets, and NOS files to sharpen a battalion of saws.


----------



## planepassion

Forgot to add that I covet Andy's backsaw nest. Till or not, you could at least favor us with some more pics of your backsaw children Andy…


----------



## Brit

*Brad* - "Treat 'em mean and keep 'em keen" that's my motto. )


----------



## Brit

Just for you Brad…










Here's my saw vise…










...and the other paraphernalia I use…


----------



## theoldfart

Brad, thanks. I used you dimensions from your DTC blog post then went from there. That Ipe' is tough stuff, not too much hand tooling on that one!


----------



## terryR

Andy, although Bob has recently raised the bar on restores, YOUR collection is a joy to behold every time! Must be all the Apple totes? You sure know how to choose a vintage tool!

DonK, thanks for those tips. lots of nice tills to consider copying, but difficult to choose between weathered wood or new. Each has a beauty of its own!


----------



## terryR

My humble vise, cheap birch ply and pine, leather hinges.










...ugly, but doesn't hinder my lack of sharpening skills at all.


----------



## theoldfart

Terry, leather hinges or leather jaw faces?


----------



## chrisstef




----------



## upchuck

I want some saw sharpening advise. I like working with Desert Ironwood (Olneya tesota). But it is a struggle. According to the http://www.wood-database.com/lumber-identification/hardwoods/desert-ironwood/ site it is one of the heaviest woods of the world and it is also incredibly hard. Ironwood dulls sharp edges just by being in the same room with them.
I have never had a piece bigger than a loaf of bread so I'm talking about small scale projects. For ripping these small pieces what rake angle would you recommend? Any other recommended ju-ju to apply to the procedure for cutting this stuff? I am willing to dedicate one of my rip saw to this effort. 
Thanks.
chuck


----------



## theoldfart

My sharpening things









The black vise is a Sargent the grey one I think is Sargent but made for Sears. The jointer has no name. The other tool is an EC Atkins raker gauge for crosscut saws. The set is a Stanley 42W. I have some files but to be honest haven't used any of this stuff yet. Easier to send things to Bob!


----------



## Brit

You might remember that I posted some photos of a Guinea saw I'd just purchased made by Taylor Brothers. Well it was waiting for me when I got home this weekend and I thought you might like to see how the saw was protected. The seller hasn't made this frame (which is on both sides of the plate). It has been with the saw a long time by the looks of things, but I thought it was quite a good idea if you have to travel with your saw and want to protect it.










It has a lovely etch with medal ribbons either side, which I'm looking forward to restoring.










On close inspection, I believe this saw has a lot of potential. I think it will get my A-game as long as I can get the split nuts off without incident.


----------



## theoldfart

Andy, by the looks of the saw "case" and the overall condition, this was a prize possession. Methinks you will do it justice in your restore. Looking forward to progress pics. no pressure, well maybe just a little!


----------



## Brit

Hold that thought Kevin, 'cause I'm afraid it won't get done for a while yet.


----------



## Tim457

TOF, I have that same no name jointer. 









The saw vice is in need of some cleanup but it works well. And my raker gauge is apparently a Disston Imperial Crosscut Saw Tool and according to their crosscut saw booklet it's a jointer, raker tooth gauge, setting block or anvil, and set gauge. But funny enough in the booklet it doesn't give good instructions on how to use the tool for the last two uses. If I pick up a crosscut saw I'll read it a little more carefully.


----------



## Tim457

Oh yeah that'll be sweet Andy.

And stef I would say you shouldn't waste wood with such nice character for a shop device, but if you're going to be staring at that saw vice, that will sure make it more fun.


----------



## DLK

My saw sharpening paraphernalia:










The saw vise was a gift from fellow LJ and all round good guy, UpChuck. The vise has no marking that I can see.
The saw vices and Grobet files are from Lee Valley, the boxes contain files I found while rust hunting.
Some used, some unused. So I am good to go and eager to start. I just have to find the time to do my first saw.


----------



## DLK

My saw sharpening paraphernalia:










The saw vise was a gift from fellow LJ and all round good guy, UpChuck. The vise has no marking that I can see. The saw vices and Grobet files are from Lee Valley, the boxes contain files I found while rust hunting. Some used, some unused. So after making an "andy style jointer" I will be good to go. I am eager to start. I just have to find the time to do my first saw.


----------



## terryR

Kevin, leather hinges.
But, adding it to the jaws sounds like a good idea!


----------



## theoldfart

Terry, working on a senior moment here. Where is the hinge?


----------



## Brit

> I want some saw sharpening advise. I like working with Desert Ironwood (Olneya tesota). But it is a struggle. According to the http://www.wood-database.com/lumber-identification/hardwoods/desert-ironwood/ site it is one of the heaviest woods of the world and it is also incredibly hard. Ironwood dulls sharp edges just by being in the same room with them.
> I have never had a piece bigger than a loaf of bread so I m talking about small scale projects. For ripping these small pieces what rake angle would you recommend? Any other recommended ju-ju to apply to the procedure for cutting this stuff? I am willing to dedicate one of my rip saw to this effort.
> Thanks.
> chuck
> 
> - upchuck


Chuck, if I understand your requirement correctly, you want to rip a piece of desert ironwood that is about 5" square by about 12" long and I presume you will do this on a workbench rather than a saw bench. That being the case, I would pick a saw 22-24" long, 6tpi (7ppi), 5 degrees of rake. I would first mark my cut line all the way around the wood and then saw a kerf all the way around the wood. Once a kerf has been established, you will find it a lot easier to stay on course once you start sawing all the way through the wood. Don't rush it and try to use as many teeth as possible, checking you are tracking your kerf frequently.


----------



## bandit571

Awhile back, tried a Knife wall approach









Two knife cuts, second one leans out over the waste side. That skinny ribbon came out of the two cuts. Saw seemed to follow the wall, nicely









Shop does not have a true rip saw, right now, but we do make do when needed. A few swipes with a small plane to finish it up..









And another drawer side is done.


----------



## DLK

A question on Back Saws. The manual for the Miller Falls-Langdon miter box says that the saw for the box is 28×5 (I presume inches). Does that mean that saw should be 5 inches wide under that spline? I think its got to mean that, but I want to be sure.


----------



## bandit571

In the process of thinning out the tool box at work, to make it a little lighter to haul out in a week or so ( Retirement, after a Med Leave) and found a hacksaw in one of the drawers. Black plastic handle was textered, a bit. Had a rectangle for a now long gone label.. Someone had spray painted the frame silver…..at least it didn't rust anymore.

Took it down to the Dungeon shop, to see what was under the paint. A double diamond showed up, then something about "Greenfield, MASS." and MADE IN USA in small letters. Then appeared …."MILLERS FALLS" with a bunch of small letters inside the double diamond. Finally, near that black handle, a number did show.

"No. 1237"

Can be adjusted for five different blade lengths. Thing might clean up to like new shape. Wonder what the label was, IF there was one…..

Photos after the clean up is complete, if you want them….


----------



## DocBailey

*Kevin*,

The hinges on Terry's saw vise would be at the bottom, so that the two halves open like a book, allowing you to insert or remove the saw.


----------



## theoldfart

Thanks Doc, I couldn't tell from the pics.


----------



## summerfi

Here is a more or less accurate summary of the *brands *of saws posted during our Month of Saws. The number of variations within a brand and the total number of individual saws posted were of course much higher. These are some pretty amazing numbers when you think about it. We LJs own a lot of saws and a wide variety of saws. Congrats everyone on a great bunch of saws. This was a lot of fun.

Number of Brands of Saws Posted
American 75
British 58
Canadian 11
German 8
Japanese 1
Swedish 1

Total 154


----------



## planepassion

Andy, thank you! Pics of your saw nest never get old. Your Guinea saw in quite intriguing.

TerryR, thanks for posting a pic of your saw vise. I'm not happy with mine, primarily because it's only about 14" long, so your design has me thinking.

Would love to see pics of other people's saw vises…

ComboProf, yes. 5" under the spine. You can confirm the size your miterbox needs by measuring the length from the bottom of the top slot of one of the saw posts (where the bottom of the spine rides on) down to the bottom of the post where the slot widens.


----------



## planepassion

My sharpening kit:



















Somax saw sets, files and roll all from Lee Valley. Adjustable handles picked up here and there.


----------



## DLK

> ComboProf, yes. 5" under the spine. You can confirm the size your miterbox needs by measuring the length from the bottom of the top slot of one of the saw posts (where the bottom of the spine rides on) down to the bottom of the post where the slot widens.
> 
> - Brad


Thanks *Brad* that is exactly what I thought. Your confirmation is reassuring.


----------



## DLK

So…. Is there anyone out there who can sell me a 28" x 5" miter box saw?


----------



## upchuck

Brit/Andy-
Thank you. That was an excellent reply. One more question if you please? Did you recommend 5 degrees of rake for strength of the teeth or aggressiveness of the cut or something else? 
chuck


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

#42 and #42X saw sets.










Wall saw till:










Users here, too:










Some here:










In the tool chest:




























And here:


----------



## bandit571

Afraid Mine are all over the shop. Some in BOTH tool chests, and twice that many hanging either from a wooden finger clamp clamped to a ceiling joist, or, like the hacksaws and coping saws, from nails and hooks over head.

That hacksaw I cleaned up today









Is a Millers Falls No.1237. An ad in a 1960 Popular mechanics mag had it on SALE! $2.95!
This one even has the Millers Falls etch on the frame









This one, I inherited from my late FIL….


----------



## john2005

Up to 4 out of 6. Only 3 posted here as I posted the #7 up above. The D8 turned out to be absoulutely gorgeous. It was totally bleached when I got it. I did swap plates with my other D8 thumbhole as this one had the better plate and visible etch.

Before









After










The photo doesn't do the wavy figure justice.














































Added a little flare to the crosscut D-8. Proportions aren't quite right, but I'm pleased enough.


----------



## Brit

*Chuck* - I doubt you need to worry about the strength of the teeth on a rip saw. Personally I think the ideal rake angle in any given situation is more about a person's ability to rip saw than it is about the aggressiveness of the cut. Rip sawing can be a tiring (but healthy) activity. If you use a rip saw every day, then a 0 or 3 degree rake angle might be the order of the day. The cut would be more aggressive and you would have the experience and muscle power to both start the saw and to keep sawing to the end of the cut. However, most of us don't use a rip saw every day and therefore a 5 degree rake angle is a bit more forgiving and requires less power and skill to get the saw started and to keep the saw moving because you are removing slightly less wood with each stroke.

My personal belief is that the rake angle of teeth filed for ripping is far less important than ensuring that all of the teeth are sharp and are playing their part with each forward stroke of the saw. That means the tips of the teeth should all be in a straight line (or on a continuous arc for saws that are breasted or crowned). Just as important is ensuring that you have the right amount of set. Too much set results in wasted effort as you are removing more wood than is necessary.


----------



## terryR

> Thanks Doc, I couldn t tell from the pics.
> 
> - theoldfart


Again, thanks, Doc. I got tied up with a lil bowl yesterday…The leather hinges work quite well. Much better than my skills with a triangular file! 

John, your D8's are beautiful!


----------



## summerfi

Nice job on the D-8's John. What did you use for a finish?


----------



## summerfi

This 1840's Disston handsaw sold on eBay yesterday for $1,558.33.


----------



## planepassion

Smitty, I like the green background on your plane till. Did you paint it or go with some other finish?

Nice 42X too. Do any of you on this forum use the 42X sawset? I have some vintage saw sets but have always felt the plunger (is that what it's called? the part that presses against the anvil.) was too big except for my large-toothed rip saws.

john2005 you did a superb job on the handle of that D-8 thumby.

summerfi, what are you going to do with your new 1840s Disston? Don't let the wife see the bank statement


----------



## terryR

> This 1840 s Disston handsaw sold on eBay yesterday for $1,558.33.
> 
> - summerfi


That's awesome! If it was a valid purchase? 
30 years older than our home…and $300 more than my Grizzly TS!
Sweet.


----------



## summerfi

Nooo….I neither sold nor bought that Disston. I just thought you guys would find it interesting.

Brad, some people have ground that part down narrower on the 42X to better fit small teeth. I believe the correct term for the part is hammer.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Thanks, Brad! Yes, it's paint.

I'm surprised Bob was neither a buyer or seller of that Disston. Someday, though, I'm thinking!

I've not used either set, and really haven't sharpened other than putzing around. Most of my saws seem to have plenty though, so I'm thinking I won't have to worry about it for awhile once the sharpening does start.


----------



## john2005

Thanks guys.

Just spray poly, semi-gloss for finish on all of them. The last two I had to repair broken horns and tried staining, but they stick out like sore thumbs. Oh well. Not like any of them are worth 15 hundred or anything.


----------



## jmartel

Bob, here's another "Z" saw for you. USA made.


----------



## bandit571

Other than the tills in the tool chests, the rest just seem to hang around..









More or less the Disstons on the right, the "others" on the left, and them hack types on the Far Left, of course..


----------



## lateralus819

Anyone know if Disston used a piece of brass on the underside of the handles of any of their saws?

A co-worker said he has a saw with the brass piece on the underside and at first i thought it might be a Harvey peace but now he says it is a disston.


----------



## summerfi

Kevin, see this link about 3/4 way down the page. After Disston bought out Harvey Peace, they continued to make saws with the brass reinforcement in the same pattern as the Peace saws. These saws had a Warranted Superior medallion, but I believe they had a Disston etch.


----------



## lateralus819

Any particular worth to them?


----------



## summerfi

They're not worth as much as an original Harvey Peace, but probably worth about as much as your average vintage Disston (e.g. D-8) in similar condition.


----------



## racerglen

saw sets









couple 77 Eclipses, some unknown, the black one is a Simmons, the blue and orange guy is a Stanley of some sort..
and jointers couple 1900 Morins from Seattle, a Shurley Detrich from Galt Ontario


----------



## racerglen

saw vices









that should go on my "shop log", if there were room..


































And big DADDY..Henry Diisston and Sons #2


----------



## john2005

Coolest shop log right there!


----------



## daddywoofdawg

> Here is a more or less accurate summary of the *brands *of saws posted during our Month of Saws. The number of variations within a brand and the total number of individual saws posted were of course much higher. These are some pretty amazing numbers when you think about it. We LJs own a lot of saws and a wide variety of saws. Congrats everyone on a great bunch of saws. This was a lot of fun.
> 
> Number of Brands of Saws Posted
> American 75
> British 58
> Canadian 11
> German 8
> Japanese 1
> Swedish 1
> 
> Total 154
> 
> - summerfi


Collect them all!


----------



## terryR

> Coolest shop log right there!
> 
> - john2005


+1 to that!
Nice hammer collection, too!


----------



## Tim457

Wow yeah that's a proper shop log and I agree nice hammer collection. I was just going to ask about hammers for flattening saws and I see you have what looks like the one in a really good video series on Youtube, the Crosscut saw filer:





Anybody know what the proper hammer is for flattening hand saws?


----------



## summerfi

> Anybody know what the proper hammer is for flattening hand saws?
> 
> - Tim


Tim, this is a saw maker's hammer, but I doubt many people have one of these lying around. I use the flat side of a small ball peen hammer and it has worked well. The key is to make sure the part that strikes the saw is crowned so it doesn't leave marks. I've never left a mark on a saw, but I've seen a lot of saws that were badly dimpled from hammers. Whoever did that must have struck the saw really hard. When hammering a saw plate, I think a lot of light taps is better than a few heavy blows.


----------



## Tim457

Interesting thanks. I'll keep my eyes out, but doubt I'll find one of those in the wild. I was wondering because the guy in the video was talking about the benefits of a cross peen hammer spreading the steel in mostly one direction where a rounded face spreads it all around. He was talking about getting kinks out and of course working on logging saws.


----------



## planepassion

Summerfi, sounds like there's a video to be made there. My heavy-handed hammer strikes have removed kinks and bows but at the price of leaving dimples. So if you ever make a video showing your techniques, you'd be doing the woodworking community quite a service.

Never seen a hammer like that. That is cool.


----------



## DLK

*racerglen* I like the shop log.


----------



## racerglen

Thanks guys for the comments on the shop log, you'll note mostly ball pein hammers in view..claws, Warringtons, tacks etc are on the wall overseeing the goings on, that'd be the east wall. the logs up at the north wall (so don't look for more hammers there ;-)


----------



## ToddJB

hummina hummina that shop log is awesome. DonW's gotta nice one too. Someday… someday…


----------



## racerglen

Tim, that hammer I think you see on my shop log is actually a tack hammer ? Looked at the video and while the shape of what he's using is similar his must outweigh mine by several pounds.
I've only seen pictures of the type that Bob's showing.


----------



## upchuck

summerfi-
The hammer you show in post #10421 also looks to me like it is similar to the hammers used to stitch (?)
hand made rasps. Any idea about the benefit to having the off center balance between the head and handle?
chuck


----------



## kwigly

got another $5 saw this weekend
It's got a lovely paint job
and a hole drilled in the plate to attach the hanger string. (grrrrrr)
The handle is good except for a split at the lower split nut (split one side only)
The blade is straight, 28" long, and a full 7-1/2" deep at the heel, with good teeth and a crowned toothline. Doesn't look like this saw has done much sawing. 




































The H Disston "eagle" medallion indicates its an 1860-65 era saw. I'm hoping that there's a Disston blade marking under that paint, that I can find by using a bit of paint stripper, but if the painter used a disc sander to prepare the plate for painting I'll be SOL (and the artistic masterpiece will be ruined too). I'm almost afraid to look.

[I don't mind people painting antique saws, and preserving them, rather than chucking them in the dumpster. But I wish they wouldn't attack classic old saws with grinders and belt sanders to clean and roughen the plate for painting]


----------



## summerfi

Chuck, in searching Google for saw hammers, I ran across this picture that is called a file maker's hammer. I presume a rasp maker's hammer would look very similar. This general style of hammer is apparently called a dog head shape. I don't know why they're shaped the way they are. My guess is having the weight off center helps ensure that the hammer always strikes the surface square, but that's only a guess.










Interestingly, I discovered that saw hammers are still made, and here is a place in Portland, OR where you can buy them in a few different shapes.

http://www.armstrongblue.com/Circle_Saw/HammersDatasheet.htm

Kwigly, that old Disston is a fantastic find. I hope it cleans up nice and shows a clear stamp. I'll look forward to pictures.


----------



## john2005

And its such a nice painting too…


----------



## chrisstef

A $5 eagle medallion is a score with or without paint. Nice Kwiggles!


----------



## Tim457

Very interesting stuff on the hammers, 4 different shapes. I wonder how much those Armstrong hammers are. Yeah Glen I definitely missed the scale on that hammer, it's more obvious looking at it more carefully.

Did anybody else notice Bob didn't decline the saw flattening tutorial video, so that means it's a go. I can promise you Bob you'll be a youtube star with hundreds of views.

I see they screwed up that set of crosscut saw videos. Videos 2 and 3 are duplicated from #1 and 4 picks up with missing material. Still good stuff though.


----------



## summerfi

LOL Tim, I've never had a desire to be in the movies.


----------



## TobyC

racerglen

Old leather working vise.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

My saw vise:


----------



## racerglen

Thanks Toby, still won't kick it out of the shop !


----------



## TobyC

> Thanks Toby, still won t kick it out of the shop !
> 
> - racerglen


I wouldn't either, and they apparently will work for small backsaws.


----------



## Don2Laughs

Hey folks, I found a great saw a the swap meet for $5 http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f345/Don2Laughs/IMG_3004.jpg[/IMG][/URL[/URL]]
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f345/Don2Laughs/IMG_3034.jpg[/IMG][/URL[/URL]]
I'll try to get a decent picture of the etch….seems to be a Keystone K5 DEFENDER with a cool pic of 2 bob sledders? with goggles. It's an 8 point saw that looks to be rip.
Any info about this find would be appreciated. Also picked this Stanley H432 Handyman saw set brand new for $2
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f345/Don2Laughs/IMG_3000.jpg[/IMG][/URL[/URL]]
And the tiny pad saw for a buck
thanks,
Don


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Because I want to see those pics of the saw:










And of the Handyman Saw Set (hoping it's blue and red):


----------



## DLK

Question. How do you gents and ladies use handsaws to re-saw say a 3/4" or 1" board into two halves? I.e. into boards with width 3/8 or 1/2 (less saw kerf).

In particular:

Do you first saw a kerf all the way around the board?
What saw do you use? What is tpi, set and rake? (Should I make/buy a frame saw?)
How do you manage the clamping?

I've looked at a few web-pages, but would like your opinions.


----------



## Tim457

Don, I did it pretty much like this:





Frame saw would be sweet, but use whatever you have.

A vice really helps. The first time you do it you're likely to end up with a fair bit of waste since you won't be able to stay perfectly in the center, and you'll have to plane a bit to clean it up, but you'll get better.


----------



## DLK

Thanks *Tim* I watched the video and did a little more reading. I saw it suggested that one use a corse rip saw. Now as it turns out last year I found and picked up a saw that was original 8 tpi but has been re-cut to be 4 tpi. I wonder if its purpose was for re-sawing. I may give it a try. (Although the teeth are not perfectly cut.) Anyway I'm just dreaming of projects to do when the snow finally melts and I'm done teaching for the year.


----------



## bandit571

Question: 
Medallion has a Keystone, but is marked as a WS
26" Skew back 8ppi
Two bolts plus the medallion bolt, brass.

Handle is a tad on the slab-sided kind
$3

Which kind of "Disston" saw would this be? Currently cleaning it up. Will post the "befores" in a bit.


----------



## bandit571

A little blurry on the one









Barn find type of thing









A look at the handle. No cracks or splits, but a paint splotch or three.

It was either this one or one that had a BIG great neck label & medallion…..NOT!


----------



## DLK

Hey *Tim* took a break from grading and went out and tried it. Easier than I thought. I tried all my saws some work better than others and some will be much better when sharpened. The saws with set worked the best.


----------



## summerfi

Bandit, that's probably a saw made by Disston for a hardware store or other second party use/sale.


----------



## bandit571

Took a bit of elbow grease, but









Handle looks a bit better









Plate is at least rust free now. has some pitting, though.









The non-show side isn't too hateful, lots of patina?









$3 8ppi crosscut. WS with a Keystone in the medallion.


----------



## Tim457

Nice Don. Yeah it's a workout, but not impossibly difficult. We all need exercise after all.

Bandit, nice turnaround on that. Did you sand the handle or scrape it?


----------



## bandit571

Both. And a block plane, too.

An old plane blade, rounded a burr on it, makes a nice scraper.

Seems to be a mis-matched bolt. Replacement was the next size up?

Saw will need a sharpeing. Might get to it after the latest projects are done. Usually a week or so between them..

8ppi, wonder if I have a file to fit …


----------



## TobyC

Hey *bandit571,*

Looks like "The Imp".

#091, page 140


----------



## bandit571

Or, maybe the Jackson?

Except mine is a skew back.


----------



## summerfi

Another restoration completed. This is a J. Taylor & Son 26" rip 5 ppi. The plate is pitted, but it's still a nice old saw. The name stamp on the plate is gone, either from wear or rust.

*Before*


















*After*


----------



## racerglen

A beauty Bob, very nicely done !


----------



## planepassion

That's the coolest faceplate I've ever seen Bob. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## Don2Laughs

Are there any tricks other than just lotsa elbow grease to get a handle that clean and fine looking? I've never been able to get one that fine.
Thanks for the inspiration, Bob!! Really enjoy your posts.


----------



## Brit

You did it proud Bob. Very nice indeed.


----------



## putty

That is a beautiful saw, Nice job Bob.


----------



## summerfi

> Are there any tricks other than just lotsa elbow grease to get a handle that clean and fine looking?
> 
> - Don2Laughs


Don, I do have one "trick" that I'll share. Most old saw handles are covered in decades of accumulated oil and dirt. The first thing I do after taking them off the saw is spray them down with oven cleaner. Let it sit about 10-15 minutes and then wash it off with clean water and a soft brush. You'll be surprised at the difference. After it dries, then comes any needed repairs and then sanding.


----------



## TobyC

> Or, maybe the Jackson?
> 
> Except mine is a skew back.
> 
> - bandit571


Look at the top of the handle of the Jackson, not the same as yours.


----------



## lateralus819

That saw is gorgeous. Love that emblem!


----------



## kwigly

I got a little bit of time to start investigating the painted saw,
I obliterated the church, and several fields of crops and grass, with paint stripper, and did find an etch underneath.
Its a "Henry Disston & Son" (one son) etch, so not quite as old as the H Disston "eagle" medallion. [ I'll have to keep looking for that elusive H Disston (no sons) saw] The saw model number is not really legible in the etch, but the steel type is "cast steel" which corresponds to the No 7, (not 8 or 9), and there's also a "7" stamped in the plate underneath the handle, so it is a No 7.
Still lots of work to do before re-assembly of the saw


----------



## summerfi

Kwigly, the H. Disston eagle medallion is probably original to your one son saw. This quote is from Disstonian Institute.

" Often saws from the mid to late 1860's feature a Disston and Son etch on the blade and the earlier eagle medallion with only Henry Disston's name. The materials that were in stock were used even if the names on them were not up-to-date."


----------



## TobyC

Yep, what he said.

I've seen quite a few like that on the forums, must have had a pretty good stash of the earlier label screws.


----------



## houblon

I rescued this saw at the flea market because I like the handle. The medallion is missing and replaced with a standard nut. Length is 18 in.
The etch under the rust reads: 
"The Celebrated Thin Back Patent Ground Spring Steel Dixie Saw" 
With a drawing in the center that could be a loaf of bread or a pork roast.

Any idea what this saw is? I could not find anything on the internet.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

^ Love it, excellent rescue! Never seen an etch like that one before , totally cool what was done on saws over the years. I'll guess it's a re-issue type of saw, made by a 'Name' and remarketed accordingly. Likely with a WS medalion. But I'm way out of my league, that's total guesswork.


----------



## upchuck

houblon-
Rather than a loaf o bread or a pork roast I'd bet it was a bale of cotton.
As in, "I wish I was in land of cotton." 
chuck


----------



## summerfi

+1 to bale of cotton.


----------



## DLK

I googled "bale of cotton" here is a sample image










I think Chuck is right.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

^ Looks like a pork roast to me. ;-)


----------



## DLK

Duplicate


----------



## Brit

> ^ Looks like a pork roast to me. ;-)
> 
> - Smitty_Cabinetshop


LOL. You're on form Smitty!


----------



## ToddJB

Made a quick and dirty backsaw till tonight.



















Likely not a long term till, as it takes up a lot of room, but it was fast and got my saws off the bench(s).


----------



## Brit

Nice job Todd. Although it takes up a lot of wall space, hanging saws like that is my favourite way to display saws if you have the room. Unfortunately, I don't.


----------



## chrisstef

Ill take a center cut … With some apple sauce on the side. That dixie saw is cool as hell.

Cross post from SOTS. A woodrough and mcparlin 11ppi backsaw in the vice for a fellow LJ


----------



## kwigly

> Kwigly, the H. Disston eagle medallion is probably original to your one son saw. This quote is from Disstonian Institute.
> 
> " Often saws from the mid to late 1860 s feature a Disston and Son etch on the blade and the earlier eagle medallion with only Henry Disston s name. The materials that were in stock were used even if the names on them were not up-to-date."
> 
> - summerfi


Hi Bob, I agree that my "eagle"medallion looks/is original to the saw.
Strangely, the only two other "one son" etched blades I have both have the later "..& sons" saw medallions, (which also appear to be original to those saws). 
Apparantly it was common to mix & match saws at Disston (no such sloppy construction at Rocky Mountain Saws)


----------



## planepassion

Todd, while I'm partial to saw tills that store their charges in their center axis, your till really shows off your collection. But, like Andy, my shop space is too limited to adopt a side-facing till.


----------



## terryR

Todd, love your open till. But I cannot see how those open totes stay hung…little notches? magic?


Adding french cleats to my shop's new wall asap…don't want to paint the ply background white. Planning to use red oak for the cleats. What do you guys think of light grey for the wall…not the cleats? Maybe I've been watching this guy too much?










or terra cotta?


----------



## Buckethead

Terry, I would recommend a (very) light color. The esteemed Mr Sellars enjoys the benefits of studio lighting, so those darker colors work nicely. For most of us mortals, however, light comes at a premium. Our tools look better, (more contrast), and light is reflected into the shop rather than absorbed by the darker color.

Two cents worth.


----------



## DanKrager

+1 on the Bucket.

I wish I had white (or very light colored) walls, with 8" insulation behind them! The shop did get a new roof so it doesn't leak like a screen door on a submarine. Guess that's a start.
DanK


----------



## terryR

sounds like solid advice. I even have white paint on hand…bummer.

Also bummed about my new Starrettt hacksaw purchase…made in china! darn.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Terra cotta, I think, is really Pumpkin.


----------



## terryR

Hmmm…pumpkin and red oak with clear oil sounds kinda cool.
relaxing.

Honestly, my plywood is so cheap looking, nothing but vintage tools will make it looks better!


----------



## ToddJB

Thanks guys.

Terry, they stay on just by fitting the closely.


----------



## DLK

*Terry* use gloss white. (Whats used in bathrooms/kitchen.) Gloss because it is the smoothest and sawdust/dust dose not adhere to it … as much.


----------



## Tim457

Nice sleuthing on the bale of cotton there Upchuck. The old times there are not forgotten.
Pork roast still sounds tasty. But its lamb instead of ham for me tomorrow.
That is a really cool etch houblon.


----------



## Brit

*Terry* - +1 on the light walls (doesn't have to be white though) and use paint with light reflecting particles if you can get it. It does make a difference.

I just finished adding another 200W of light in the form of 4×50W spots to my shop. It looks like an operating theatre now. LOL.


----------



## bandit571

Just what exactly was the "Imp" saw by Disston? Now that I have one, might worth knowing something about it.

Test drive seemed to do ok. Cuts fast, and straight. At least as straight as I can make it….operator errors, you know.

Nothing "impish" about this saw. Maybe stands for "Imperial"?


----------



## terryR

Sorry, guys, but I rolled on a thick coat of what was on hand…Kilz…eggshell. looks like goat poop now, but maybe the 2nd coat will help? If not, I'll just add more tools to cover it up! LOL.


----------



## theoldfart

Smitty, dredging up the past with Terra Cotta/Pumpkin? Where's BYo when we need his expertise?


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

There's always the Workshop Style Guide…


----------



## TobyC

> Just what exactly was the "Imp" saw by Disston? Now that I have one, might worth knowing something about it.
> 
> Test drive seemed to do ok. Cuts fast, and straight. At least as straight as I can make it….operator errors, you know.
> 
> Nothing "impish" about this saw. Maybe stands for "Imperial"?
> 
> - bandit571


This is just a guess, but it probably was something sort of left over after Disston acquired the National Saw Company. It was one of the saws that could be ordered with a special etch to be sold by other companies.


----------



## TobyC

*bandit571*

Cool pix.


----------



## houblon

Glad to know its a bale of cotton. Mrs. Houblon would not appreciate if I took the saw to the dinner table.
Happy Easter!


----------



## TobyC

Cut me a hunk of that!

Happy Easter.


----------



## theoldfart

Best wishes to everyone, hope your day has been fulfilling.


----------



## planepassion

Andy, your new lighting will come in handy on those overcast days.

I'll try a piece of that roast too. Looks perfectly cooked.


----------



## Buckethead

> I rescued this saw at the flea market because I like the handle. The medallion is missing and replaced with a standard nut. Length is 18 in.
> The etch under the rust reads:
> "The Celebrated Thin Back Patent Ground Spring Steel Dixie Saw"
> With a drawing in the center that could be a loaf of bread or a pork roast.
> 
> Any idea what this saw is? I could not find anything on the internet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - houblon


Guys. I think I figured it out:


----------



## TobyC

nevermind.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Sorry for the double post from the SOTS thread, but have to share my excitement with the Saw Folks!

Got this in the mail today, and the smile is still on my face: A Summerfield Original.










The inspiration was Bob's English table saw posted during our march through the alphabet of makers. When I saw the form, I asked if he'd consider building one for me. He agreed, and the rest is history. Handle is pecan, custom dyed to give it an aged look. 14" saw plate, filed hybrid at 10 degrees rake and 12 degrees fleam. Custom fit to my hand, and wow does it cut and feel sweet.


----------



## racerglen

Oh my that's sweet !


----------



## WillliamMSP

Wow - pretty saw, Smitty.


----------



## dbray45

Smitty - that is very nice, Bob is doing some really nice work. One of these days I will see if I can afford one of those beautiful saws.


----------



## donwilwol

Sweet Saw Smitty. The handle almost has a used look. Nice work Bob.


----------



## dbray45

On the home front, I bought 10 saws on the bay a while back and finally getting some work done on them. I have de-rusted 2 of them using electrolysis (2 in the solution now) and have been working on the sharpening process. A few months ago, I bought a Foley saw filer that had been neglected and have been piecing things together. I figured that I could go through these blades as practice before messing up my good saws.

Well, making some real progress, found a spring that had lost its tension, re-calibrated everything and it is working much better. Now it will file the entire saw plate without slipping a tooth 1/2 way through. Still have a lot of work before I will do my good blades but at least I am making great progress.


----------



## putty

Very nice Smitty. I love the vintage handle look, do you have a special tool box you plan to keep it in?

Bob, nice work, I'll send you an email about a possible order!


----------



## terryR

Congrats, Smitty! That's a lovely ?panel saw. 
Bob, you have found your calling IMO. Keep it up!!!
Any chance you have dry Pecan for trade?


----------



## putty

Terry, You are in the land of Pecan orchards, I would think that it is pretty common there.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Thanks, all! Putty, I'm thinking of a proper locale, not settled yet. Terry, I do. Let's pm, see what's possible. And Bob's original piece was called a table saw. My kind of table saw, right?


----------



## terryR

Oh, table saw is MUCH better!  Please PM…

Yeah, Putty, have a huge Pecan in our yard…it's everywhere here. But, I'm always looking for dry wood since I keep putting off a shop kiln.


----------



## summerfi

Thanks for the nice comments everyone. If you'd like to see more pics of Smitty's saw, follow this link.

http://s1303.photobucket.com/user/rmsaws/library/Smitty%20table%20saw?sort=3&page=1

This is the first time I've worked with pecan, and I think it's a nice wood. It's harder than I expected, but has a uniform grain and works well. I just couldn't see Smitty having a saw with a shiny new looking handle, so I tried the variable shading to make it look old. I'm pleased with how it turned out. Smitty, how do you like the size of the saw, and does the handle fit your hand?

I'm working on two more of these saws right now. They will be added to my sets of 10 saws, which have now evolved into sets of 11 saws.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Bob, the fit is absolutely perfect. Snugs right up with a firm grip.

Had a late night of meetings last night, so didn't get to actually play with the saw until this AM. For a few moments, it was total fun. Rip is slow and steady, tracks dead on. The cross-cut was faster, and with little blow-out on the backside of the cuts. The length (14"), plate depth and no-back construction makes it a natural for a bench-top saw. Count me as a big fan of the form.

In other words, if you've ever used a panel saw at the bench at realized they're simply too big for the job, you'd love this saw. It'll be a user, and might be reason to thin the heard from this point.

I do wonder if not having the toothline extend below the handle will ever be an issue, like, when using the saw with a bench hook. I'll let you know.


----------



## summerfi

Thanks Smitty. Feedback is always appreciated. I hope it performs well for you.


----------



## Mosquito

I agree Smitty, 'full size' panel saws at the bench seemed too big for me, which is why I made my 18" panel saw for that purpose. Much better.

Great looking saw Bob!


----------



## Buckethead

Great analysis. Panel saws are definitely too big for the bench, but I've never actually thought the words. Daddy needs some new toy fundage.


----------



## Mosquito

Makes me want to get a request in…


----------



## BigRedKnothead

> Bob, the fit is absolutely perfect. Snugs right up with a firm grip.
> 
> Had a late night of meetings last night, so didn t get to actually play with the saw until this AM. For a few moments, it was total fun. Rip is slow and steady, tracks dead on. The cross-cut was faster, and with little blow-out on the backside of the cuts. The length (14"), plate depth and no-back construction makes it a natural for a bench-top saw. Count me as a big fan of the form.
> 
> In other words, if you ve ever used a panel saw at the bench at realized they re simply too big for the job, you d love this saw. It ll be a user, and might be reason to thin the heard from this point.
> 
> I do wonder if not having the toothline extend below the handle will ever be an issue, like, when using the saw with a bench hook. I ll let you know.
> 
> - Smitty_Cabinetshop


Interesting stuff. I've know Gramercy offers a Sash Saw with hybrid filing, but I've never seen you guys discuss it here.


----------



## chrisstef

It seems everyones got a slightly different take on that hybrid filing. Here's bad axe's sash saw with hybrid filing.

http://www.badaxetoolworks.com/my-saw-filing-technique.php#hybrid

Its kind of funny, I was watching Woodwrights shop the other night and Roy had Schwarz on talking about "3 levels" of saw cuts. Level one being your rough dimensioning, level 2 being where the joint is hidden, and level 3 being where the joinery is exposed.

Ive got to say he had some solid techniques in that video that I would like to try out. The most interesting one was taking a chisel and paring a little V notch to the waste side of your cut. This would allow the saw to register against a nice flat so it starts nice and straight directly in the layout out mark.


----------



## Mosquito

> Ive got to say he had some solid techniques in that video that I would like to try out. The most interesting one was taking a chisel and paring a little V notch to the waste side of your cut. This would allow the saw to register against a nice flat so it starts nice and straight directly in the layout out mark.
> 
> - chrisstef


You haven't watched many Paul Sellers videos have you? He's constantly talking about the "knife wall", pretty much any time he makes a cross cut. It's how I do almost all of mine now too (and subscribe to a similar '3-levels' ideology). Good stuff.


----------



## chrisstef

No I cant say I have Mos. I honestly haven't sat in front of the tv to watch anything outside of sports in quite a while but now that I can stream youtube on my normal television I may start watching more vids like Sellers. Having a 2 1/2 year old has stunted my entertainment abilities to things like Frozen, Cars, Donald Duck and those 5 friggin monkeys jumping on the bed. Ill smash those monkeys in the face if I ever see em.


----------



## WillliamMSP

> Its kind of funny, I was watching Woodwrights shop the other night and Roy had Schwarz on talking about "3 levels" of saw cuts. Level one being your rough dime
> - chrisstef


It's funny that I watched that same, years-old episode online just a few days ago, too.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Stef, you're killing me. May of 2011…

http://lumberjocks.com/Smitty_Cabinetshop/blog/23153

Three-quarters down, chiseling saw cuts for show…


----------



## ToddJB

^ See. Smithwright Shop coming soon in the fall of 2015.


----------



## upchuck

Thanks Stef for that link to Bad Axe about hybrid filing. After reading it I understand that hybrid filing is a compromise filing to get a saw to be pretty good at both cross cut and ripping. Right?
I got a 28" Atkins ripper that has the three and a half inches closest to the toe filed at 5 tpi and the rest filed at 4tpi. What do you call that sort of configuration? Do you think that it is factory filed that way or user modified?
So I'm set up for my virgin attempt at saw sharpening on Saturday. Another virgin and I are set up to give it a go.
I am grateful for this forum and all of the discussion about this particular topic and saws in general. I am only going to try to sharpen my rip saws for this first go. But success at that may make me try X-cuts next. And failure may make me take up base jumping. Wish me luck.



> Chuck - the treatment for fileophobia is aspiration of a healthy dose of rust dust, followed by washing one s hands in mineral spirits, WD-40, or Simple Green, and then vigorous exercise of the hands and arms while holding a piece of roughened paper. Then, continue the exercise with a piece of triangular steel in the hands, moving the steel laterally across the edge of a second piece of flat steel. Works every time. No charge for the medical advice.
> 
> - summerfi


----------



## summerfi

> I got a 28" Atkins ripper that has the two inches closest to the toe filed at 5 tpi and the rest filed at 4tpi. What do you call that sort of configuration? Do you think that it is factory filed that way or user modified?
> 
> - upchuck


Chuck, that's called progressive pitch. The finer teeth near the toe makes it a little easier to start the cut. A lot of old rip saws were like that from the factory. It's usually more than 2" though, more like 4 or 5 inches.

Good luck on losing your virginity.


----------



## jmartel

Any recommendations on a general guideline for a 11tpi crosscut panel saw as far as set, rake, fleam go? I've got 2 that will need it. One is a 20" and the other is a full 26", both the same tpi currently. It will be used on likely not dry enough cedar beams for the first major project. I've got some time yet, but since the sharpening talk has come up I figured I'd ask now. I haven't sharpened anything before, but I got my saw set in the mail today so I should have everything needed.

I've read a few articles on it, including the Bad Axe one, but figured I'd get a few more inputs.


----------



## upchuck

Thanks Summerfi-
Yeah, two inches seemed too short to me also after thinking about it for a bit. I went back and measured it
and edited my post just before I read your response. 3-1/2" not 2".
chuck


----------



## summerfi

jmart - 15 degrees rake and 25 degrees fleam is a good place to start for a crosscut. You can vary that as needed, but that's probably what I'd do for my first filing attempt. I see a lot of saws that have too much set, so go lightly on that. I sharpened two 11 ppi crosscuts last night and had my Somax blue set as low as it would go (12), so probably in the 10 to 12 range would be good. There's no correlation between the numbers on the set and the ppi of the saw.


----------



## jmartel

Thanks for the help, Bob.


----------



## Mosquito

I've yet to set a saw with anything lower than 10 on my somax, but I did buy a saw that ended up having so much set the kerf is almost 5x wider than the saw plate. Dang thing takes out more wood than a circular saw lol


----------



## Airframer

I finally have a saw till in my shop.. though it has to wait on the rest of the tool cabinet to get finished before it can be used. I managed to fit 6 full sized saws in there!


----------



## dbray45

This is for Bob (summerfi) and Andy (Brit)

In the pile of saws that I bought, I have started the de-rusting, I find this "S. Tyzack & Son Ltd. Railway Arch" saw. The saw is in good shape.

Andy - what can you tell me about these folks?
Bob - Can I purchase 3 sets of the brass split nuts that you make, I can send you an original one which is almost worn through?


----------



## Brit

In 1839, 30-year-old sawmaker Henry Tyzack moved from Sheffield to Shoreditch, just outside the City of London. Henry's father Samuel was a sawmaker, as was his younger brother Joseph and his uncle, Thomas Tyzack. We do not know exactly when Henry started making saws and other tools under his own name, but 1843 is the date used by the successor firms. In 1861 or shortly afterwards, Henry transferred the business (with two employees) to his eldest son, Samuel, who in 1860 had leased a small shop of his own. By 1871 Samuel had five employees. Henry died in 1876 and Samuel died in 1903.

The "& Son" in the name S. Tyzack & Son likely refers to Edgar, born in 1877, although another son, Horace, was also involved in the business. The name changed to S. Tyzack & Sons in 1905, after Edgar Tyzack inherited the business.

The company operated until 1987 when it was finally wound down.










If you can post a photo of the entire saw, I might be able to tell you the model number.

*Note:* They are nothing to do with Joseph Tyzack & Sons or W. Tyzack, Sons & Turner.


----------



## summerfi

David, I don't sell my split nut screws because they are hand made and of inferior quality compared to lathe-made screws that others sell. I highly recommend LJ ErikF as a source of split nut screws. The quality is high and the price is good. I buy my medallions, and occasionally screws, from him.


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## dbray45

Thank you both. I will have to put the handle back on and get together with ErikF. The saw is a short version, probably a toolbox version. I will take a picture when I can.

Many thanks.


----------



## chrisstef

> Stef, you re killing me. May of 2011…
> 
> http://lumberjocks.com/Smitty_Cabinetshop/blog/23153
> 
> Three-quarters down, chiseling saw cuts for show…
> 
> - Smitty_Cabinetshop


I don't know that I could have even distinguished a rip vs a crosscut saw back then Smit 

Update on the hybrid filing on the Woodrough & McParlin …. epic fail. Ive been conferring with Bob over what went wrong but all I know is that at 10 degrees rake and 17.5 degrees fleam, this saw is so damn grabby that I cant even start it in softwood without a feather touch (smitty). Im going to investigate the matter further this evening and hopefully I can figure out what went wrong.


----------



## DanKrager

I'm thinking that grabby starting and aggressive cutting are one and the same. See if you can start it at a shallow angle to the grain (or starting surface if cross cut) to minimize grabbing and then watch how aggressive it is. I think I would like aggressive up to a point and when the time comes, will sharpen my saws to be fairly aggressive. I'm intrigued with the compromise of variable pitch for a short section of the toe for starting. 
DanK


----------



## ToddJB

Being a new to hand jobbers (nod to Red for that fun phrase), I have a hard time with aggressive saws. I'd prefer more strokes than a challenging beginning.


----------



## Airframer

> Being a new to hand jobbers … I d prefer more strokes than a challenging beginning.
> 
> - ToddJB


Fixed it for ya…


----------



## chrisstef

Well i just finished it up … again, and ive got a theory. The theory is that with the combination of the pitch of the saw (11ppi), and the fleam angle i used. (17.5 degrees), i didnt create the correct shape at the tips of the teeth. The tips of the teeth were sharp but had flat tips instead of pointed tips. Flat tips of teeth wont sever the fibers therefore difficult (read impossible) to start crosscutting, especially pine. While it worked (kinda) on hardwood, because the fibers were stiffer, it still sucked. I think that, because it was 11 ppi, and the fleam was less than a standard 25 degrees i wasnt cutting the entire tip of the tooth with the file.

I upped the fleam angle to 25 degrees leaving the rake at 10 degrees and it cuts much better crosscut. Still a bit grabby in pine but chewed through poplar aggressively.

Thats my story and im stickin to it.


----------



## CFrye

Need some assistance from the learned here. I picked up a 24" Disston and Sons backsaw yesterday that is only 3" tall from the bottom of the tooth to the top of the steel spine. Not able to see an etch on the plate or any markings on the spine. The handle shape and medalian say pre-1918. 


















I thought it had been sharpened a lot (explaining the short height) but hubby pointed out the nub on the end (seen in the second pic) and said that would not be there if it had been sharpened so many times. 
Can you all help me identify this saw? Thanks in advance. 
Cross posted from the rust hunt thread.


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## Brit

*Candy* - A 24" Disston miter saw would have had 4" of saw plate exposed when measured from the bottom of the spine to the tips of the teeth.


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## CFrye

Thanks, Andy. Some things are difficult to ferret out, like where the measurements are actually obtained. So, are you saying this not a miter saw? or it really has been sharpened? or?


----------



## ErikF

You guys have been busy. Bob, the table saw you built for Smitty is one of the best looking saws I've seen…excellent work.
I have been working on getting a business up and running so the majority of my time has been spent in the workshop. I recently moved and finally have the shop close to where I want it. Thought I would share a few pictures. I hope to have a fully operational business within a few months.









Just picked up this horizontal mill from a school auction. I'm currently building a jig to hold handles and saw backs- this machine will cut a .020" slot all day long. 








Batch of around 75 saws being built using a number of different species for the handles. 








Shop foreman cracking the whip.








Bob sent me a link showing a rough how-to on making ratchet bars for the Foley re-toother. I have cut a few sets so far, it's time consuming but the end result makes it worth it.


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## dbray45

I have seen a couple of saws like this in the past. It may be a special dovetail saw.


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## CFrye

Erik, that shop foreman looks formidable! ;-)
David, that would be cool.


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## Brit

*Candy* - IMO it is definitely a miter saw which has been sharpened.

Disston mitre box saws were generally 11ppi and available in the following sizes (although the sizes available did vary slightly. The 1918 catalogue has the sizes ranging from 20" - 32", whereas the 1939 catalogue has them ranging from 18" - 30".

18" - 26" plate had a 4" depth of cut.
28" - 30" plate had a 5" depth of cut.
30" - 32" could also be had with a 6" depth of cut.

If it was mine I would send it to Bob to fit a new 19 gauge plate (that was the gauge of steel employed by Disston when the saw was new) and sharpen it for you.


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## putty

Very nice Erik, You have a full fledged machine shop! Has spring come to Traverse City yet?


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## dbray45

Andy, I have an Atkins and a Disston. For the long plate, the nut configuration for the larger plate is usually different than this saw has. This configuration seems to be made for the narrower blade. I could be wrong but it looks to be a specially made saw for small tenons or dovetails. Something where 1 or 2 passes and the cut is done kind of application.


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## Brit

You could be right David, but my gut says it is a No.4 mitre saw like the one shown below, except in Candy's case it has been sharpened down to the black line. Obviously, there is also some damage to the cheek too just forward of the screws.


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## Tim457

Good to see the shop is getting up and running Erik. Those are some fun toys you have there.


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## ToddJB

Erik, awesome set up. I'm pumped for you! 75 saws should keep you busy for awile. Is the process more or less enjoyable for you when doing production batches vs one saw start to finish?


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## planepassion

Erik, would love to see a video of your mill in action. That is one cool piece of machinery.


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## summerfi

Erik - Those are some great pics. Thanks for showing them. I think your shop foreman is kinda cute, but don't tell her I said that. I know you've been working very hard getting your business going. Man, working on 75 saws at a time? I can't even get my set of 10 done. Your picture of all those saw handles reminds me of that vintage pic from the Disston factory of the old guy surrounded by stacks and stacks of handles. I think the day is coming when we'll all be saying, "I knew Erik when he first started out. Now look at him." You're doing an amazing job, and I hope your business takes off and is a resounding success.

Candy - I agree with what Andy has said about your miter saw. It's probably seen it's better days, unfortunately.


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## Tim457

I second the milling video motion. And I don't know about better days Bob. Now she has a vintage version of Roy Underhill's extra long dovetail saw. Like Dave says, one pass and done. I agree it's probably been sharpened down though.


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## dbray45

Andy - I stand corrected, that is the handle configuration that she has.

But - it could be a really nice dove tail saw - now!


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## jmartel

Erik, off topic question here, but where did you get that metal art of the ship on the wall? I bought a piece from a local guy here in Seattle and he had some that looked just like that.

This is what I bought from him.


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## Slyy

Bob/Andy - any good links on dating harvey peace saw's? A friend loaned me a bunch of lioe clamps for my ensuing bench build, saw he had a little 8" back saw, told him the least I could do for his kindness was clean the little bugger up. Seems it was his father's at one point. I'll post some pics when I get done with class this afternoon.


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## summerfi

I've completed a couple more table saws. You can read the details in the update near the end of this blog.


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## chrisstef

Jake - http://www.hyperkitten.com/tools/hwpeace/saws/backsaws.php


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## summerfi

Jake - Here are the best links I know for Harvey Peace saws.

http://www.hyperkitten.com/tools/hwpeace/

http://www.wkfinetools.com/hUS-saws/PeaceH/PeaceH-index.asp

Edit: Stef beat me to one of them.


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## Slyy

Thanks boyz I can always count on you!

EDIT 
Definitely a No. 45 backsaw. Blade has a lot of surface rust and grim, unsure if an etch survives.


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## daddywoofdawg

could of been custom ordered with a narrow plate.


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## TobyC

> Need some assistance from the learned here. I picked up a 24" Disston and Sons backsaw yesterday that is only 3" tall from the bottom of the tooth to the top of the steel spine. Not able to see an etch on the plate or any markings on the spine. The handle shape and medalian say pre-1918.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I thought it had been sharpened a lot (explaining the short height) but hubby pointed out the nub on the end (seen in the second pic) and said that would not be there if it had been sharpened so many times.
> Can you all help me identify this saw? Thanks in advance.
> Cross posted from the rust hunt thread.
> 
> - CFrye


It could be a ""MECHANICS' OWN BACK SAW, No. 77, which had blades from 8 to 26 inches.


----------



## Wally331

The thickness of the plate would determine a lot on what type of saw it is candy. If its a miter saw it'll have a quite substantial plate. My guess is on it being a very well worn and used miter saw.

Erik and Bob, amazing work! Those table saws are incredible, and Erik your quantity is impressive.

Right now I've got probably 20 handle blanks cut out, with 6 or 7 finished just awaiting screws and a finish. Been having a lot of troubles with the carbide spade bits shattering in the .035 steel for some reason. They will zip through .020 no problem but I've broken like 3 or 4 bits now . Tried all different speeds and pressures but obviously something I'm doing is consistently off.


----------



## summerfi

Wally, I don't know if this would help or not, but have you tried some cutting oil on the bits?


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## Wally331

I usually do use oil on my drill bits when cutting steel, however the manufacturer says no oil required. I'll be giving it a try tomorrow anyways. Is there a big difference between a general machine oil and cutting oil? Thanks Bob.


----------



## Brit

It could be a ""MECHANICS OWN BACK SAW, No. 77, which had blades from 8 to 26 inches.

- TobyC
[/QUOTE]

I did consider that Toby. As far as I know, in the absence of an etch, the only reliable way for Candy to tell if she has a No.77 instead of a No.4 mitre saw is to measure the thickness of the plate to see if there is a discernible taper. Out of the factory, the teeth on a mitre saw would be filed at 11ppi and the teeth on a No.77 would be filed 8ppi except for the first couple of inches at the toe which were filed at 12ppi. Of course teeth can be changed, so we can't totally rely on that. If the teeth are filed like a No.77 though, it would be nice to know.

I initially ruled out a No.77 because the bolt hole spacing on Candy's handle is the same as the handle on a mitre saw of that period and I thought that the spacing of the bolts on a No.77 were the same as a No.4 handle which the Disstonian Institute show as being closer together.

What I didn't take into account however, was the fact that No.77 backsaws did use the handles with the larger bolt spacing on saws that were longer in length. So I went looking for an example of a No.77 with the larger handle and found one in Daryl's collection. Here it is:










That being the case and the fact that the heel of the plate on Candy's saw exits the bottom of the handle perpendicular to the spine now leads me to say that I think Toby called it. On all of the mitre saws of that period the heel of the plate exited the bottom of the handle at an angle.

Candy - If it is a No.77, then you have a pretty rare saw especially since it is 24" in length. To confirm it is a No.77, I recommend you do the following:

1. If you have a micrometer or vernier calipers (or know someone who has), measure the thickness of the plate just above the teeth and also the thickness immediately under the spine. Do this at four points along the length of the plate. If it is a No.77, the thickness of the plate will be less just under the spine than it is just above the teeth.
2. Take a close look at the teeth. Are the teeth smaller at the toe than they are along the rest of the plate?
3. If you have a magnifying glass, look hard for any signs of an etch. Unfortunately, most of the etch will have been filed away now, but if the top of the etch is still present it might help identify the saw.

The plot thickens…and Toby keeps me honest once again. LOL.


----------



## Brit

Also, out of the factory, a No.77 would not have had any set on the teeth, so see if you can feel any set on the teeth. Sadly, due to the ignorance of some so called "mechanics" of yesteryear, set was applied to many No.77 saws when they were re-sharpened. That being the case, this cannot be a means of concluding the saw is a No.77 either, but it would be interesting to know one way or the other.


----------



## Brit

Here is an example of how the teeth on a No.77 would have been sharpened, again courtesy of Daryl Weir.


----------



## ErikF

Putty- every time I think spring has arrived I end up having to brush snow off my truck. That being said…it is supposed to break 60 this weekend 

Todd- I find it to be just as satisfying but in a different way. It also allows me time to work on other projects/tools that I would like to produce since I can get a lot more done in one sitting…biggest benefit is that it has allowed me to hire someone part time. I can show him how to do one step of the build process then stand back while he does it over and over.

Bob- thanks for the kind words. I love that pic you posted of the handle shaper at the Disston factory, wish I could have seen him in action. Question- what plate thickness are you using for the table saws?

Wally- how rigid is your setup? If you're breaking carbide it's going to have to do with vibration- carbide has no room for flex and hates shock. Be careful if you use a cutting fluid because some grades of carbide will develop small cracks from the thermal change when fluid catches the cutting edge.

I'll post some machine operation videos soon- it's neat to see the old mill in action.


----------



## summerfi

Erik - I'm using 0.028" steel for the table saws. That's about the same as the vintage one I have.


----------



## daddywoofdawg

Think disston would sell me a Dz for 25.00?
Can you even buy any of their saws new for 25?


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Is there such thing as a new Disston?


----------



## dbray45

They do not make hand saws anymore.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Nope. Found their site, looks lime a reincorporation in the 80s and now it's 300 employees making blades and bits. They do some manufacturing in the us, too. Interesting.


----------



## summerfi

Disston was sold to HK Porter in 1955. The company was eventually dismantled and parts sold off to several other companies. One of those parts was reborn as Disston Precision Corp in the 1980s, which operates on a small portion of Disston's original property in Philadelphia. They make circular saws and other steel products.

Good article: They're Still Making Saws

Disston Precision Corp website


----------



## Tim457

Wally weren't you taking a machining class? Is your teacher any good as a resource? The thing I looked up is carbide bits really don't like runout. Here's the link:
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/cnc-machining/feeds-speeds-solid-carbide-drills-121439/
That was for much more rigid milling machines too. The runout on a drill press would be much higher.


----------



## CFrye

Update: I went to the shop this morning after work and re-examined the saw with the above suggestions in mind. Thickness near the spine is 0.0250" at both ends(after removing the handle. 
Thickness above the teeth is 0.0330". 
The spine under the handle is more like bare metal than blued, as I read a # 4 would be.
There is no difference in tooth size or count at the tip. 
There is no set in the teeth (this is what I looked at earlier and thought indicated it was cross cut filed). 


















Thank you all for your help.


----------



## TobyC

That's a No.77 with a tapered blade! Very cool, don't change a thing.


----------



## putty

Candy, I think the 4 had a blued spine, 5 had a brass spine and a 77 had a polished steel spine.


----------



## TobyC

*There were three model numbers for the basic Disston backsaw. The common No. 4, with a blue back (darkened and given a bit of rust resistance by coating heated steel with linseed oil), the No. 5, featuring a brass back, and the No. 7, which had a bright steel back. These three were offered from the early days of the company until 1928, when the whole line of Disston saws was redesigned. After 1928, the No. 4 featured a bright steel back. The No. 5 was also available until the 1940's. It may have disappeared permanently when brass became unavailable for consumer goods during WWII.*

Here.


----------



## TobyC

I think the 77 had a bright steel back. Some (all?) of Disston's Gent's saws and open handled backsaws had a brass plated steel back.


----------



## CFrye

Putty, I was initially thinking it was a #4 due to the non-shiny spine. Turns out it was grime and time not 'blue'!
So it may be a #77. Does that fall into the clean-it-but-don't-use-it category?


----------



## TobyC

Sharpen and use, it lost it's "mint condition" a long time ago. And tools were meant to be used.


----------



## Slyy

The Disston site leads me to believe this is. No 7, though the medallion looks to be WWII era. Any thoughts?


----------



## Brit

*Candy* - The No.77 was the only backsaw Disston made with a tapered plate, so it is pretty conclusive now that that is what you have. I agree with Toby that you should clean/repair/sharpen it and use it. Try and get the rust off the plate without resorting to abrasives if you can so you don't compromise the taper.


----------



## chrisstef

Whats the length on that saw jake? The handle looks earlier than ww2 to me. The 3 buttons are usually on a 24" saw.

Neat score candy and solid sleuthing by toby and the panel.


----------



## CFrye

OK, I like the 'use it' answer! I won't use anymore abrasive on it(oops, I derusted with 500 grit). As far as the handle goes for repairing…a straight cut to smooth the rough edge on the front cheek and glue on a new piece of apple? or just clean and leave it?
How difficult would it be to redo the front teeth back to the original configuration? For someone that was skilled.
I really appreciate all the help you all have offered.


----------



## TobyC

Do what makes you happy.







I would clean up the handle and put tongue oil on it. You can put the original kind of teeth back on it without difficulty.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

A Summerfied in use.










It's been pretty easy to pick up a habit of reaching for this saw.


----------



## TheFridge

And jealousy rears its ugly head.


----------



## summerfi

Glad it's earning its keep Smitty.


----------



## theoldfart

Damn, just when I thought I had enough saws!

Smitty, you really know how to stage them.

Bob, well you know, another fine job.


----------



## putty

That looks like a smitty vintage saw!!!


----------



## summerfi

I just picked this saw up on ebay and I thought you guys would find it interesting. It was advertised as a 24" miter saw, but I could see in the pictures that it has a brass back and that the blade length is 20". I don't know if it is a small miter saw or an extra large tenon saw. I think it is probably British, but the simplicity of the name stamp makes me believe it is probably a second line saw from a different maker. The handle is in pretty rough shape and will take some major reconstruction. It should be a pretty cool saw once I get it restored though.


----------



## chrisstef

My Stanley 150 miter box would loooove that saw Bob. Good score buddy.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

> My Stanley 150 miter box would loooove that saw Bob. Good score buddy.
> 
> - chrisstef


^ I totally agree with that message.


----------



## ToddJB

I third it.


----------



## racerglen

Bandit popped a couple of hacksaws a while back, so what the..










Top is a 12"or 10"(in 12" setting) Watts of London and Sheffield carrying the British crown just ahead and above the handle along with the date 1941, and "AM" indicating it was a British air ministry issue during WW 11 for the RAF (Just for you Andy ;-)
Below is a 10" "Consolidated Tool Works" of New York saw .

and here's my main user.









An English "Eclipse" in 12" mode, cast aluminum tote very comfy to use some day maybe it'll be getting touch of refurb.


----------



## bandit571

The one that was in my work tool box









Millers Falls #1237, with the Millers Falls logos on the frame









Might need a new blade. A catalog form 1960 had this on sale…


----------



## EricN

I am new to this forum and new to hand tool woodworking. I have always loved tools though and came across this at a garage sale a while back and got it for next to nothing. I haven't seen teeth like this before and am wondering if anybody here knows anything about it. It is a Warranted Superior from what I can tell on the bolts and the plate is 30 in. long.


----------



## DanKrager

Does it cut? I've never seen anything like this.
DanK


----------



## EricN

> Does it cut? I ve never seen anything like this.
> DanK
> 
> - Dan Krager


Yeah, it cuts pretty aggressively. Not much precision though.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Holy cow, that'd be a tough push.


----------



## summerfi

The saw itself looks like a one man crosscut that someone has shortened a bit. Why anyone would put teeth like that on it is beyond me. It appears they were put on with an indexing grinder of some kind. Maybe they were trying to convert it from a crosscut (timber saw) pattern to something else and gave up halfway through the process. It wouldn't be much good for anything as it is now. Someone could run it through a Foley retoother and put new handsaw teeth on it, but I doubt it would be worth the effort, and the plate is probably too thick anyway. It's good you paid next to nothing for it. You have a good source of card scrapers at least.


----------



## EricN

> You have a good source of card scrapers at least.
> 
> - summerfi


Not a bad idea there.


----------



## daddywoofdawg

maybe it came from the factory before the sharping stage.


----------



## TobyC

> I am new to this forum and new to hand tool woodworking. I have always loved tools though and came across this at a garage sale a while back and got it for next to nothing. I haven t seen teeth like this before and am wondering if anybody here knows anything about it. It is a Warranted Superior from what I can tell on the bolts and the plate is 30 in. long.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - EricN


Those are some strange teeth! And not very useful,... side cutters and no rakers. (And no set.) Can you show us a pic of the handle?

.


----------



## Tugboater78

Dang bob i now have a new saw for my wishlist. I need a new tablesaw, my craftsman and ridgid i am bored with.

Id rather have a summerfi..


----------



## summerfi

> Dang bob i now have a new saw for my wishlist.
> 
> - Tugboater78


----------



## DLK

Makes no difference who you AWE
Anything your heart desires
BOB MAKES FOR you

If A SAW is in your dream
No request is too extreme
When you wish upon a SAW
As LJ-ers do


----------



## DocBailey

> Smitty, you really know how to stage them.
> 
> - theoldfart


Well said!


----------



## Brit

Welcome to Lumberjocks Eric.

Can't say for sure, but my guess would be that you have a saw for cutting ice. The teeth on ice saws come in many shapes and sizes, but some are not a million miles from the teeth on your saw. Check out the teeth on this ice saw.










So if you want to indulge in a spot of ice fishing or feel the need to build an igloo, you'll be set.


----------



## summerfi

Here's a cool old video on harvesting ice the old fashioned way.





View on YouTube


----------



## Brit

That's pretty cool if you pardon the pun.


----------



## ErikF

Putting a little ghetto in the shop this morning- the retoother is operating under power.


----------



## terryR

Erik, color me jealous of the machining tools. However, I don't have a clue how to operate any, so I may be better off without! 

Under the Heading *Using*:










Ripping 45 degree bevels in red oak by hand for french cleats. Why? Hmmm…actually my shoulders are still asking the same question! LOL.

It took me a solid 1.5 hours to layout, cut, plane, and install these four cleats…yeah, I'm slow!










Gonna use a more aggressive rip saw today…


----------



## summerfi

Terry's wall is looking good. Erik's ghetto is looking good too.


----------



## terryR

Thanks, Bob.
I'll use that 4ppi John Spear you sharpened next time…I'm a skinny guy so had to use BOTH arms for ripping.

Anyone want to trade a Summerfield Saw for my left-tilt table saw?


----------



## Mosquito

Terry, quicker than screwing up quickly twice and having to remake them lol

+1 with what Terry said re: machining tools. I wish I had a.) the space to have them, b.) means to obtain them, c.) time to use them, d.) Knowledge to run them.


----------



## jmartel

+1 to all of your points, Mos. I've used most of the main machining tools except for a surface grinder, but don't have enough experience to do much with it. I can at least weld decently, though.


----------



## Mosquito

I mean, I know I could 'remedy' at least a few of those with time, but who knows how long before that'd happen… I have enough things fighting for my free time as it is lol


----------



## summerfi

Here are a couple more saws. The first one is an unnamed 8" dovetail that I plan to keep. I reshaped the handle slightly and replaced the steel screws with brass split nuts.

*Before*









*After*









The next one is an 1871-74 Disston & Sons No. 7 30" rip saw that I got as a bonus with another saw I bought on eBay. This saw came with a user made unfinished cherry handle that was quite a good job. I only needed to do minor reshaping and finishing of it. The saw has some pitting but would still make a good user if you need a big rip saw. I plan to list it for sale on my website. If your initials happen to be E.B that would be nice, since a previous owner stamped that on one of the screws.


----------



## richardwootton

Hey Bob, how's that big Disston filed? I wouldn't mind another big ripper.


----------



## summerfi

Richard, it is 4.5 ppi progressing to 5 ppi and then 5.5 ppi in the last few inches near the toe. It is filed with 8 degrees rake and zero fleam. The set is light. The first time I set it I broke some teeth. I filed them out (big job on large teeth) and second time around I only set it lightly. It should perform well, but it's a big saw with aggressive teeth. It would be good for ripping heavy material. The blade length is actually 29 3/8". That's a bit odd, so it's possible someone has shortened it 5/8". I can't see any evidence of that though. The pitting is the worst on the front side, but there is also staining on the back side. The etch is almost gone, but if you look closely you can see the word Disston and the outline of the keystone symbol. I know it's a No. 7 because there is a 7 stamped under the handle. Here are a few more pics.


----------



## chrisstef

Love it when the stamp under the handle. Made pegging this early Richardson Bros saw a bit easier.


----------



## lateralus819

Terry don't worry I'm slow too! I don't move very fast. I'm always over thinking every aspect of each project.


----------



## bandit571

Tried to sharpen the #091 Imp saw the other day….after about the first 6" or so, gave up.. Tried a crosscut, could not tell any difference, piece flew of the end and onto the floor like always….

Might keep it around for rough stuff…


----------



## duckmilk

I posted this 14" Disston a couple of months ago and asked some questions about sharpening it.










The teeth I wouldn't call cows and calves exactly, more like randomly haphazard heights and gullets at a (sort of) 12tpi.



















I started with an aggressive jointing and reshaping the teeth trying to get a little shiner on the small teeth without eliminating the larger ones.










After 3 joiintings and shapings, I had them in much better shape, although not perfect.










Then I marked every other tooth and set them with a 42x. This was my first time setting teeth and I was a little nervous. However, it went well although I may have applied too much set on some. I may have not had the anvil set just right, or just wasn't consistent with the hand pressure.










I then lightly jointed again and filed it at an attempt to produce a hybrid filing since this is my only backsaw. I didn't use any kind of guide so don't know what the rake or fleam ended up at. Just tried to make them all consistent.

Then, what the heck, I decided to go ahead and clean up the brass and handle some. If I had some good rasps and files, I might have done some shaping to the handle to make it prettier.




























My sawing skills aren't much, but it cut straight. It did leave some marks from some teeth with more set than others. I might try the vise trick I saw somewhere where some paper is folded over the teeth and then squeezed in a metal vise to even out the set. What do you guys think of that method?










On the backside, less blowout on the rip cuts than the cross grain ones.










It cuts slower on the rips, but doesn't feel too grabby. I did stone the sides of the teeth with a soft arkansas, but didn't see much improvement. Suggestions welcome.

Thanks to Stef, Bob and others for their encouragement and especially to Andy for his blog.


----------



## chrisstef

Nice Duck!! Id say the blowout is par for the course on a hybrid filing and it should be expected. Ive never tried the paper in a vice technique but it seems more than plausible to me. I would run a couple more passes with the stone down the sides and see if it helps out any more. I wouldn't suggest trying to bend the teeth backwards with your saw set, youll most likely snap a tooth.

Going after a 12 ppi on your first attempt is ballsy and I like it. When I finished up my first sharpening I felt like I had ran a couple miles trying to read a book while staring at the sun. Tired and cross eyed.


----------



## summerfi

+1 what Stef said. Also, its easy to make rake and fleam gauges out of blocks of wood, so might give that a try next time. Good job for first sharpening attempt though! And the handle looks great!


----------



## duckmilk

Thanks guys, I have sharpened a couple of large saws before, but nothing this challenging. The light with magnifier was really helpful in setting the teeth as it allowed me to better visualize the placement of the hammer on the tooth.

I'll stone the teeth again, but I have a suspicion that a few are bent out a little too much. The vise trick would not allow the teeth to have more set than the thickness of the paper. If I do that, I will probably use fairly thick construction paper or very thin cardboard.

BTW, the sample cuts were in knotty alder. (also, did you two see my new sig line?)


----------



## putty

Nice job Duck, Get those cataract's fixed and you may not need the magnifier!


----------



## summerfi

LOL nice signature line duck. I didn't think our hats were that funny though. And the lumber is still drying. Heck, it might take years.


----------



## duckmilk

Haha! That is from someone who probably wears his baseball cap backwards 

Just ran the arkie stone across the teeth three light passes, Could just see shiny spots on the sides of all teeth. It cuts so much better and smoother now. Thanks Stef


----------



## Tim457

Nice job with those teeth, Duck. Major improvement over what was there. I can't remember who it was I saw doing that machinist vice trick, but if I remember they were someone that knew what they were talking about. Seems like it would take a high quality vice to do it right, though.


----------



## donwilwol

just stopping in for a quick look. I hate that pitting looks like vintage here and like rust holes on my saws.

Back to plane making!


----------



## Airframer

Double post from the Mitre Box thread but it is relevant anyhoo..

I knocked together a toolwell hanger mitre saw station. Seems to work pretty good and allows the full use of the bench top while having the mitre saw available for use as needed.




























Putting some lipstick on the pig now then final assembly and I need to build a re-positionable board jack to go with it.


----------



## duckmilk

Very nice Eric. I'm having a hard time visualizing how it is supported. More pics, maybe, please?

Great job on the tool and saw till also, btw


----------



## Buckethead

Definitely a good idea. It's nice to be able to make an accurate cut without having to set up a chop saw, table saw or whatever. Just cut.


----------



## Airframer

Here ya go..



More pics of the underside in the project post.


----------



## duckmilk

Thanks for the comments Putty and Tim.

Eric, I see now how it's attached. Good idea.


----------



## bandit571

A wee bit of rust hunting today. Spent a whopping $3 on a handsaw









Disston USA on the medallion. Brass bolts were nickle plated. 8ppi/26"long. Can make out an etch.

Might be a D-23? A look at the other side, to show how much was cleaned off the "show side" 









Nasty? Also spent a dollar bill on another hacksaw









Union Hardware Co. of Torrington, CONN, USA. Has a different type of locking back









The notches come up through rectangular holes in the frame. Handle has a pin, to index the blade. Black painted hardwood handle will need a new coat. BIG wing nut, with a square bolt









Might be like a few other "Union" hacksaws? Or, not?

Not too hateful a day for rust..


----------



## Airframer

In other news I finally got to mounting my Wentworth today..



















I also attempted to sharpen my 246's mitre saw with less than great results but lessons were learned and now I can try again lol. I tried to get pics of my destruction .. erm I mean results but my camera batteries dies just as I got done.

I need to clean up the vise now and get it running smoothly.


----------



## CFrye

Dang, Eric! Here, I've been trying figure where to mount a similar saw vise on my bench. Thanks for enlightening me!


----------



## Tim457

I agree, great idea, Eric. Mine came with a C clamp but missing the pad so the end if the screw digs into whatever it's clamped to. Yours is a great way to drop it in the vice when needed and take it out when not.



> I tried to get pics of my destruction .. erm I mean results but my camera batteries dies just as I got done.
> - Airframer


Oh sure, the camera died, heard that one before. Lol. I think tooth destruction comes before perfection.


----------



## Airframer

The only tricky bit was getting the bottom rabbet deep enough to allow the vise arm to clear the leg vise chop when in operation. I still had to shim the mounts a bit but it works all sorts of dandy like now lol.

It was the batteries! I swear! I did get one blurry pic to take just before they died. The teath look round in it for some reason but that's not the reality of it..


----------



## chrisstef

Richardson Bros No 15. 26", 8 ppi. Mid 1880's i would guess.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Picked up a 12" backsaw that I was sure was a Cincinnati Saw Company build (Geo. Bishop). Here it is, next to the genuine article:










Handles are dead-on.










No etch, though. Rats.


----------



## putty

Nice matching pair Smitty, file one rip and one Xcut?
just a little difference on the shape of the cheeks?


----------



## ErikF

In the case that anyone wants to see the Foley filer and retoother in action.

Filer

Retoother rigged to a motor.


----------



## duckmilk

Interesting, Eric. How fine a tooth pattern can that filer do (and the retoother)?


----------



## duckmilk

Doh! Erik


----------



## ErikF

Ha- no worries. The retoother can punch 17tpi using a ratchet bar I made and the filer can sharpen at 16tpi. I had to make a new file holder that would handle the smaller/shorter files for the fine pitch teeth.


----------



## dbray45

Eric - When you sharpen the saw, bring the plate down in the vise so that the teeth are just above the vise jaws. This does several things - 
-It gives the saw plate rigidity
-It gives you a straight reference
-It is quieter
-And it works better

Good luck


----------



## bandit571

Have determined that one item to be rust hunted this year….will be a decent rip saw, either a full length one, or something in the panel saw range. Haven't kept any around lately ( Several MINTY D-8s have come and gone), but need something for things too small for that circular saw to cut. Without cutting me or the bench.

There IS and etch on the D-23! Need to find WHERE one of the GrandBRATS hid all the black sharpies, and maybe bring the etch back to life. One other strange saw…..has an "etch" like a double line circle, with a double line "banner" under it. Can only see a few of the lines, no numbers. Medallion says WS.

May have to look out for a saw vise this year, as well. Might wait until Labour Day at West Liberty, OH. Fellow last year had a box FULL of them, and two boxes full of saw sets! But, no saws? Called a Tractor Fest, and there will be a few hundred tractors from around the area….


----------



## CFrye

Thanks for this solution, Eric!








Now I have a question(or two)? I picked up these 3 saws a few days ago. 








The biggest has a Warrented Superior medallion. 
Test cut in a piece of pine, the top kerf. 








Is this normal for a saw 'set' to cut soft woods, or is it extreme? 
BTW, the middle kerf is the smallest saw and the lower is the medium. What would these smaller saws be used for?


----------



## summerfi

Candy, the top kerf looks a little extreme to me. I'd say not only does the saw have too much set, but it also appears to be pretty dull. The smallest saw looks like a utility type of saw to me, while the medium size one, based on the handle, appears to be a small hand saw that has been worn down by many sharpenings and then shortened.


----------



## CFrye

Thanks, Bob. Learning to sharpen is on the ever lengthening To Do List.


----------



## Tim457

A saw set up for green wood will have more set so it doesn't bind, but I don't know why that saw would be that way.


----------



## DanKrager

My new friend. It's even "disguising" the grinder marks I put in my dad's saw when I was in grade school trying to de-rust it. The saw with big teeth is stamped 3 1/2 and has a thumbhole handle. It sat in an electrolysis bath for about four hours and was scraped. Still had a lot of crud on it, but this wheel is taking it right off leaving an acceptable sheen. I might go finer than 80 grit depending on how it looks and how I feel at the end. Discovered that the blade appears to be tapered from teeth to back edge. Is that unusual for a Disston?










DanK


----------



## DocBailey

There are D-8s and there are D8s.

Here are two saws I picked up today, about 5 blocks apart from one another.
They were manufactured roughly sixty years apart.

Both have nearly flawless handles, straight blades and are sharp.


----------



## theoldfart

Doc, have a similar D8


----------



## Tim457

I have never seen one of the newer models like that before Doc, interesting. Man, I need to find some better places to look, I've never seen a saw as clean as either one of those in the wild. I see saws everywhere, but lots of rust.


----------



## daddywoofdawg

one looks shorter than the other.


----------



## DocBailey

^ Indeed-the older one is a 28"; the newer is a 26"


----------



## terryR

DanK, Thanks for trying out that abrasive wheel…I have the same one sitting unused in my shop!

Nice thumbholes, guys!


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Summerfield special getting a workout this morning.


----------



## summerfi

Makin' me proud Red!


----------



## theoldfart

Makin' me jealous Red!


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Well, I couldn't stand to see my lady using a cake pan for a tea tray….so I be makin' one.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Actually these cuts are the reason I wanted a Gent's saw. Straight down and crazy close to the knife line. Oh yeah. 









Just feels like I have more control than a western handle for these finesse cuts.


----------



## racerglen

Interesting "nose " on this two dollar saw








Thinking it's a user installed option..
then there's the handle..









Very light rust spots other than under the handle, a "guarated superior" 
the other side of the tote has a local hotel's name felt penned in, funny the bolt/nut patern matched
a D-8 thumbhole handle that's on my bench awaiting some attention..


----------



## summerfi

I've always felt I had more control with a gent's saw Red. I think they're an under-appreciated tool.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Right Bob. You can't bear down and rip like a western handle, but they're great for small detail cuts.


----------



## summerfi

My new 1865-71 Henry Disston & Son No. 7. The plate is 28" at 5-1/2 ppi rip.

*Before*


















*After*


----------



## chrisstef

That gets me all types of hot in the pants bob ^. Shes a beaute.


----------



## TobyC

Very nice Bob, and the etch and the label screw both have one son!


----------



## planepassion

Glen, I have a No 12 with the same user modification. My thought was that they'd start the cut with the "backsaw teeth" filed into the spine of the saw and finish with the ripsaw.


----------



## bandit571

A bit different kind of saw, not sure where to post it..









Needs new tires, lower guide bearing is bad. Has sat for over three years. Bought it used at a garage sale back in the late 1980s. #113.244513 12" three wheeler. Got most of the parts taken off, and cleaned up









Mototr was tried out, runs great. Two out of the three wheels needs new rubber on them. Drive belts off of a DirtDevil vac. are the right size. Will need a crown sanded into them. This might fill in on the bigger jobs my scrollsaw shouldn't be doing. Got nothing but my time in this project, right now.

Now, IF the dizzy spells would kindly go away, I might get something done on this…


----------



## racerglen

My thoughts too Brad..

Bandit, see state of shop thread ;-)


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

I think this is the saddest saw handle I've ever bought.



















Any rehab suggestions?


----------



## Mosquito

Wood filler.


----------



## DocBailey

Why Smitty, Why?


----------



## summerfi

That is indeed a sad handle Smitty. The only chance I see to save it is to cut it off as shown and graft on a new piece. Is it worth it? Probably not seeing that the lower horn needs a repair too. Almost seems like a waste of good apple wood. I see D-8 thumbhole handles on ebay now and then. That's probably what I'd do.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

I agree, and will start the search for a similar - vintage replacement on the 'bay…


----------



## Buckethead

Don't listen to em Smitty…. Save the handle!


----------



## donwilwol

Is the plate any better than the handle Smitty?


----------



## dbray45

The teeth on the top of the blade is something that "old school" carpenters do. I work with one that does this to his saws. The reason is for installing door frames and the like. This little saw on top is for cutting the cross piece off near the floor without damaging the floor or the main saw.


----------



## planepassion

Smitty, you may rehab the handle for the challenge and experience of it. But summerfi is on the mark I'm thinking…


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

> Is the plate any better than the handle Smitty?
> 
> - Don W


That might be the better question than mine. It's stamped as a 5 1/2 PPI, with not-a-lot of sharpenings done to it, I'd guess. Not pitted, just rusted. Lemmee see if there's an etch and go from there. But it's low on the totem pole. Thanks for the input, fellas.


----------



## summerfi

What do you do when a saw handle is split through the screw holes and glue won't hold it? I encountered that problem recently, so I thought I'd share this as yet untested solution in case it may be beneficial to others.

I'm restoring an 1860's vintage backsaw, and the handle is split through two of the screw holes, which unfortunately happen to line up with the grain. I tried gluing the split with Titebond. It initially held, but after I'd finished the handle and was assembling the saw, the handle split again as I installed the screws. I could make a new handle, but on a saw this old, I'd like to save the old handle if possible. After thinking about it, here is what I did. I first reglued the split, this time using epoxy. Here is the reglued handle.










I then used a slitting saw in my router to cut two narrow slots in the front edge of the cheek. The slots span the split.



















I then cut two half-moon shaped pieces of veneer to fit in the slots with the grain running perpendicular to the grain of the handle.










Then I glued the veneer in the slots with epoxy.










The epoxy is drying now, so only time will tell if it works. I think it has a good shot though, and by using thin veneer the repair should hardly be noticeable.


----------



## racerglen

Looks like a great idea Bob, just dare it to split now !


----------



## donwilwol

That should work Bob! If not, a nice brass plate?


----------



## DLK

Hey, isn't that what the box guys call corner splines.


----------



## summerfi

I've completed the restoration on the saw with the split handle that I posted above. You can read my blog about this monster saw here.


----------



## donwilwol

You're restores are an inspiration Bob.


----------



## chrisstef

I second that. ^


----------



## summerfi

Thanks fellas.


----------



## dbray45

Well, I just bought a Foley 385 retoother with all of the ratchet bars.

Here is the deal - Do any of you remember Tom Lawes, of the saw sharpening video? Tom was a heavy duty collector of hand saws. His collection included 900+ different hand saws. The long and the short of it, he passed away a couple of years ago and Mrs. has over 700 saws that she would like to sell, many of them are sharpened by Tom. The collection includes many saws that may be seriously collectable and may be one of a kind and are priced accordingly. Many are priced at $50 to $125 (Tom put values on many of them before he passed).

Anybody that that is interested in hand saws (all flavors and types), totes, blades, saw filers. retoothers, filers, etc… give me a PM and I will forward her email. Do not worry if she doesn't get right back to her, she doesn't have internet and has to go to the library to get and send emails (her daughter is showing her how email works).


----------



## Mosquito

Sweet pick up on the 385 David. I quite want a retoother, but have only seen a few come up locally around here, usually for more than what I can afford


----------



## dbray45

She has a grey one from Foley with bars. Don't know which ratchet/carrier bars (4 or 5 of them) but for around $250, it looked complete (plus shipping), it might be a deal.


----------



## Mosquito

That wouldn't be a bad deal, but no idea what shipping out to MN would be. Hmmm


----------



## bandit571

Have a few project saws to clean up…









That "Tool Box Saw is by Great neck….not worth the effort. The other three just might be usable. National Hardware Special, a D-7 (?) and a little panel saw with a steel plate on the handle. All four saws for …..$2

Have the 7 apart, bolts are getting cleaned up, handle was split, it is now in the clamps for the night.

Along with these treasures..









About $10 for the day…..might take awhile on the saw plates. Any tips on removing that plate, those might be rivets holding it in place.


----------



## chrisstef

I don't think there is any way to remove peened rivets besides drilling them out bandit. I like that little panel saw with the cone nuts and the plate. Good scores.


----------



## dbray45

Mos - figure 50 - 60 lbs. from Hagerstown, MD to your location - ground

I will speak with her.


----------



## DanKrager

Mos, it is good to check the shipping on that Foley. I sent a couple hundred pounds of tools eastward on a pallet and the $600 shipping stung a little. It might be small enough to go UPS or similar, but it better be packaged well. I had one once and I wouldn't want to ship it anywhere. It's full of castings that are vulnerable.
DanK


----------



## Mosquito

looking like around $65-80 if it's 60 pounds and 24×24x24 box, and I don't think the ratchet bars would fit in something that size anyway. Don't think I can spend that much on it anyway, at least not right now


----------



## summerfi

Mos when I was looking for Foley stuff, I saw quite a bit in your part of the country on Craigslist. I don't see any there right now, but I'm sure more will come along.


----------



## Mosquito

I've seen a couple pop up, but not in a while. Not an immediate need yet, so I would be waiting, especially at $250+shipping. If it was $100 less I'd probably be all over it though lol


----------



## bandit571

Update on two of the saws:

The D-7ish one has no etch, as of yet. It does have a smallish lamb's tongue. It is also 10 ppi. Disston Philidelphia medallion
Handle is still sitting in the clamps, awaiting the glue to finish drying…

As for that little saw with the steel plate on the handle? It is an 8ppi. It does have an etch….something about workmanship…and Columbian Brand Has "___ Tempered above the rest of the etch. Definetly not a Disston.

Third saw is another National Hardware Special….The Great Neck Tool Box saw is in the trash can.

Columbian Brand? Ring any bells out there?


----------



## bandit571

A few shots after the clean up









Hey, that is a saw bench, plate was a bear to clean in place









Been trying to bring back the etch a little bit more









8ppi Columbian Brand. Handle feels like it was made by Atkins. 
As for the D-7?









Handle has been repaired, sanded, and a splash and wipe of BLO. Found a couple extra bolts









And even clocked the screws









I think this might just do the trick? Not too bad, for a Quarter a piece?


----------



## summerfi

I started restoring an old Disston No. 7 today and found something interesting under the handle. I've heard of this before but have never seen it personally. In addition to the expected "7" stamp, there is also a "HD" stamp. In fact HD is struck twice since it wasn't deep enough the first time. Presumably this is the stamp of either Henry Disston or his son Hamilton Disston. There are also 3 small triangles stamped near one of the screw holes. Here is a link to an article with a picture of a saw with nearly identical markings. The only difference is that saw has a single small star instead of the 3 triangles.


----------



## putty

That is interesting Bob, were you able to date the saw?
were the triangles and stars stamped to test for hardness?


----------



## summerfi

Yes, the saw is a one son, so it dates to 1865-71. I don't know the purpose of the triangles and star, but that's a good thought about testing for hardness.


----------



## bandit571

On that Saw I have just cleaned up:

Handle says it is a No. 7 from the style of it. This is an open top handle

Might be a "Light weight Ship Pattern" No. 7. Medallion is from about the 1928 era.

Have found faint etchs. Can make out the "Y" and the DISS…from the Henry Diiston across the top of the Keystone. No numbers IN the keystone part of the etch. Thinking this might be that pre-1928 No. 7 Lghtweight ship's saw. Bolts are brass, not plated. Not too bad for …fifty cents?


----------



## bandit571

Traded a junker plane yesterday, for a Disston & Sons backsaw. Steel back, with a stamping. Plate also has an etch. Medallion is brass with two other sawbolts. Is missing a piece of a cheeck. otherwise, not bad shape









This shows where the missing piece was. Have since cleaned up the saw..









Cast steel Henry Disston & Sons Philada USA Warranted

There is a etch with the keystone on the plate. On the Medallion the two stars are five pointers. Back is bright steel, no sign of any blueing. Someone had engraved a DHS on the other side of the back.

No. 4 ? Or, No. 9? LOTS of small sharp teeth, too.


----------



## bandit571

Anyone home around here? Place is still going, right?


----------



## DLK

Still, here. I've been traveling.


----------



## bandit571

Cleaned up that trade-in saw. Haven't even had to sharpen it, yet









Even cuts straight









And this was as a crosscut. Might try the rip direction later

Etch









Cast steel Warranted. Henry Disston & Sons Philada. USA Spline is bright steel, no sign of any blueing. 
No. 9? Maybe??


----------



## summerfi

Yo Bandit! No one here but us chickens.

I would bet money your backsaw is a No. 4 since it was by far the most common. More often than not the bluing has worn off the spine. Sometimes you can see remnants of it if you take the handle off. The other possibility is a No. 7, which is like the No. 4 but with a bright steel back. The No. 5 has a brass back. The No. 9 is the Regan style, which is quite a bit different. There's more info here.


----------



## bandit571

Ok, have tried the #7. Cuts nicely as a crosscut saw. May not need a sharpening. This next one will need it though. A while back, bought four saws in a bundle…$2

Got them home.









Threw out that tool box saw, and rehabbed the D-7, and theColumbian/Atkins saw. Which left another Disston saw to clean up. 1/4 sheet sander and a sheet or two later..









Wire wheel to derust the bolts. Even found a decent etch! Not too bad for a 1954 National Hardware Special?









Cleaned up even better than the other one of these I have. Just needs some work with a file.









Three saws for $2? Not too bad a day.


----------



## RPhillips

Here's my K1 with a much improved handle. First closed handle I've done, and only the third or forth handle I've made.


----------



## TobyC

> Here s my K1 with a much improved handle. First closed handle I ve done, and only the third or forth handle I ve made.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - RPhillips


That's a beauty! Well done.


----------



## DLK

Nice, handle. What wood and finish did you ue?


----------



## RPhillips

The handle is Padauk with a light coat of Danish oil.


----------



## DLK

Thanks.


----------



## bandit571

Well, all this handle got was a wipe down with BLO









Brass was polished up, slots were clocked









No repairs were done to the handle. Seems I now have a couple decent saws









Not sure which number the gents saw is. Beech handle for it.


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## chrisstef

Nie little backsaw there bandit. You made out well on that swap for sure. I think those gents saws were No. 68's.


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## bandit571

Suppose I should clean up the fourth of the $2 saw bundle? Not much to look at, though..









Actually sanded the handle. Polished the steel bolts. Wipe on of BLO for the woodworks









Plate has been derusted. Still has a partial decal on the plate….Great Neck

Hey, for $0.50 for that saw? And, it is still sharp. Dang teeth look like shark's teeth, though. Use it to break down Barn Wood supplies?

All four saws from the bundle are now cleaned up, along with that trade-in No.7 Been fun.


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## summerfi

I've been fortunate to acquire two Disston one son No. 7 saws in a short period of time. I posted pictures of the 28" rip saw a short while ago. Now, here is the 26" crosscut saw. It's one of the few old saws I've restored that didn't need horn repairs. It does, however, have a brass name tag applied by a previous owner. Rather than remove the tag and try to fill in the hole, I chose to leave it as part of the saw's history. If your name is J.A. Thompson I might consider selling you this saw. Otherwise, I'll keep it as part of my collection.

*Before*









*After*




































Here are my three oldest Disstons together. Top to bottom, one son rip, one son crosscut, and pre-son eagle medallion panel.









I also completed a restoration on this Disston No. 7, which I suspect is one of the later No. 7's produced.


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## JayT

Bob, I think you need to sent that JA Thompson saw to me-at least I've got the right initials. 

Excellent work, as always.


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## chrisstef

I know someone with those initials. Seriously. Id keep that saw though, he'd never see it.


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## john2005

I know I've told you before, but you do fine work Bob.

Help me out here fellas. Got this at a garage sale last weekend for a buck. Never seen an etch like this one. Couldn't read it till I got it home. "Buddy L" by Disston and Sons it looks like. Medallion is missing. I just thought it was a good one for the boys cause of its size. The wife hates it when I buys tools for a 3yr old, especially when I take it to Bob for a sharpening. But they gotta start somewhere…


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## CFrye

Nice refurb jobs, Bandit and Bob! 
John, you've probably already told your wife, a sharp tool is more respected and cared for than a dull one that 'won't hurt anything' and is, therefore, safer. Cool looking etch.


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## racerglen

John, Buddy L was a line of kids toys, my youngest now has my 1950's Buddy trucks on a shelf in his garage.They were kind of like Tonka toys in the day.
I think it's safe to say this would have been part of a kids tool set, nice find !


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## summerfi

John, here is your Buddy L saw in it's original 1927 tool chest.










The saw looks like a miniature Disston No. 16. Now you have to build a chest and stock it with all the other tools. More info here:

http://www.grandoldtoys.com/toydb_Detail.php?id=786


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## Waterlog

Picked up a WMC saw a couple weeks ago for $5. I am a novice saw restorer however, there is a very pleasing sense of Zen like quality in the process. As well as mortification. After epoxying the repurposed old saw handle to the original, I decided to fill the drilled hole in the upper grip. As I was "pounding" the handmade dowel into the hole, the whole handle broke in half! SON OF A WITCH! After I calmed down I started over and fixed it. I made the dowel from a small piece of olivewood which was a good color match with the aged beech handle. The moral of the story is, just go for it and learn as you go. Don't get so excited about getting it done and rush the process like pounding harder with a hammer. That's when disaster will strike. Anyway thanks for looking.

Before and after.


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## john2005

Awe man, I thought I had found something unique. Turns out I just found another big project. I really hope that guy didn't have the rest of the kit and sold it earlier…


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## chrisstef

I like that one a lot waterlog. Great work on tgat handle as well. Im a sucker for split nuts.


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## summerfi

John - I think you did find something pretty unique. From what I've read, the saw is the hardest tool to find from the original chest, and Buddy L collectors will pay an arm and a leg for it. You could always flip it and buy more tools. If you decide to build the chest and stock it with tools, I have a close to original brace I'll donate.

Lester - that WMC turned out real nice. When working on 100+ year old saws, things often go wrong. The key is to stick in there and work your way through it, and you did that well.


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## TheFridge

I'm kinda jealous. I've prob seen about 4-5 dozen saws for sale in various place in south Louisiana but have found none without a mangled plate. It's like tool heaven in the midwest/northeast.


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## john2005

> John - I think you did find something pretty unique. From what I ve read, the saw is the hardest tool to find from the original chest, and Buddy L collectors will pay an arm and a leg for it. You could always flip it and buy more tools. If you decide to build the chest and stock it with tools, I have a close to original brace I ll donate.
> 
> - summerfi


Hmmm, now you got me thinkin… If I go for it, I'll take you up on that for sure.


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## Waterlog

Very interesting on the Buddy L saw, the web site says it is very hard to find.

Yesterday, I found a similar saw at a yard sale for $1. It is a Disston but I do not think it is a Buddy L however, it is has a standard size handle but the plate is only 14" long. Here are some pictures, I am waiting for the BLO to dry as we speak. The medallion is a common pre 1917 vintage. What do you think?


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## Waterlog

Well the BLO is pretty dry so, here is the finished product on the pseudo Buddy L saw. Below the handle 11 imprint and it does have 11 PPI but they also look like LL.


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## summerfi

Lester, I think you have an older D8 panel saw that has been shortened either intentionally or by breakage. You can tell it's a panel saw because it has 4 screws instead of 5.


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## fumehappy

Any one have info on saw maker i. Smith? German steel stamp along with London pattern handle make me think 1820s. Thanks!


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## TobyC

Isaac Smith


----------



## TobyC

*Early Smiths.*


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## TobyC

They used "I" for "J" back then.


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## summerfi

fumehappy - Your saw has the appearance of being a British made saw, and the three crowns surrounding the name stamp confirms that. You may or may not know that on early British saws, the initial "I" was used in place of a "J" for reasons that I'm not sure about. In other words, if a saw was made by John Smith, for example, it would be stamped I. Smith. The book British Saws And Saw Makers From 1660 lists several saw makers named Smith, but none of their first names start with I. The only name starting with J is John, but there are several of those. There are John Smiths listed as operating in 1811, 1822, 1825, and 1827. Additionally, there is a John Smith & Son that operated from 1814 to 1937 and a John Smith & Co. that operated from 1841 to 1848. Your saw was likely made by one of those, but which one may never be known. The presence of the London pattern handle and only three screws could mean that your saw is an early one, or it could also mean that it is a later cheaply made one. The German Steel designation was typically used on second quality saws. Here is an article that talks about German Steel. The handle on your saw is in very good condition, which makes me believe it is later than 1820s. I recommend you post the saw on backsaw.net and have the British experts there give an opinion on it's date.

Edit: Toby beat me to a lot of the info.


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## Wally331

Here's a few pics of what I've been up to lately. Finally sourced a decent amount of quartersawn cherry and walnut- enough for thirty or so saws which will keep me busy in my spare time over the summer. Making lots of no.7's and no.12 panel saws. all ranges of ppi and plates ranging from 20-24 inches. A few of the plates in the pictures need to be further polished/refined a bit more, but you get the gist.


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## racerglen

Almost, I say almost, too nice to use ! Good work Walley !


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## duckmilk

I really like the look of those lambs tongues Wally. Just beautiful.


----------



## fumehappy

thanks guys, i posted pics of mine on the backsaw forum as a second example.


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## TheFridge

Yall make it look easy.


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## TobyC

> thanks guys, i posted pics of mine on the backsaw forum as a second example.
> 
> - fumehappy


Very cool!


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## DLK

> They used "I" for "J" back then.
> 
> - TobyC


The Russian, Romanian and Greek form of JOSEPH is IOSIF as in Iosif Stalin.


----------



## TobyC




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## Tim457

Picked up this saw that Bob identified for me as a No.7 from an estate sale. It's the best condition saw I've ever seen in the wild, though not perfect for sure. Disstonian institute dates it at 1878-1888 by the medallion if I'm looking at it right. Has the nib intact and the etch is pretty readable without any cleaning, but I didn't get a good shot of it. Question for you guys, is there a way to preserve the labels that are near the medallion and grip? Would shellac over those work? Anything better?


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## chrisstef

Ohh dang ^.


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## Wally331

That's a damn good looking saw, the detail in the chamfers and lambs tongue is still so crisp, just awesome!.

Thanks for the kind words from everyone as always. I'm picking up enough steel and screws soon enough for thirty saws which I'll be making and selling on ebay over summer. After the school year ends I will no longer have access to the pexto foot shear and other equipment. Not sure of what ya'll will see of my after this summer, depends on if I can use UW Madison's shop or not. 13 days of school left, yeah buddy.

Anyways here's that no. 7 in Walnut first, and then in cherry, walnut blade polished up, cherry not as much.



























And myswell throw in a prom pic just because people always seem to enjoy it.


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## warrenkicker

I have been lurking on this thread for a while thinking that most of the good stuff shown here wouldn't be available in my area. I just saw a CL listing today and jumped on it. Maybe I didn't really get anything good but I will leave that to the experts. There were 4 D-8's marked 2, 6, 7 and 8. Only two had the thumb-hole tote. Then there were 2 D-23's and 1 D-12. Then there was a 26" miter saw made for Stanley by Simonds. All are sharp and pretty clean. $20 for all of that fun. I have photos of each etch and tote in case something is actually worth something.


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## BigRedKnothead

Good stuff Wally. Hope you had a good time at prom.

Nice haul Warren!


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## racerglen

Tim, I've used a coat of Shellac over labels with no issues.
More Wally saw porn, love it !
Warren that looks to be in the YOU SUCK catagory, nice snag !


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## summerfi

Tim, I've used poly over a partial label and it turned out OK. Turned the label darker than I'd like, but I don't know any way around that.

Nice saws Wally. You'll stay busy making 30 more!

That's a great haul for $20 Warren. Love that Simonds miter saw. On the D-8's, if the numbers you stated are located on the heel, they indicate points per inch. I'm wondering if the 2 wasn't originally a 12, with the 1 either lightly stamped or filed away during sharpening.


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## chrisstef

All ready laying down on prom night I see Wally. Atta boy.

Yup, you suck warren. That's a killer haul for 20 bones.


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## donwilwol

Tim, that's a sweet #7 but unless you add a prom date, Wally's got you beat.


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## warrenkicker

The Simonds weighs a ton. Does not appear to have been sharpened more than about 1/16". It appears to be pre-1922.









I measured all of the D-8's. Two have the 8 inside the D and two have the 8 beside the D. I guess the first two are pre-1917 if I am reading correctly. The first D-8 is stamped 6 but is 5 ppi. The second is stamped 2 but is 4.5 ppi. The third is stamped 8 but is 7 ppi. The 4th is stamped 7 but is 8 ppi. The 7 is almost sharpened through.


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## planepassion

$2.50/saw is one screaming deal Warren. "Just" two thumbies…you're funny. They're pretty scarce in the Denver area. Congratulations on a very nice haul.


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## TheFridge

Lucky. I have to drive 1 hr to New Orleans to even look at a saw worth buying.


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## Tim457

Nice haul Warren, that's a whole lotta Disston for $20.

Wally, nice saws as always. Looks like prom was fun. I'd try to see if you can work a deal to use the school's equipment over the summer. Schools are usually open for various activities. If not, see about getting into UW's shop early.

Don, I think it would be a little creepy for me to take a girl to prom now don't you think?

Bob I thought that might happen too, and was considering using some thin CA glue both as a protecting layer and to stick down the part of the label that's lifting up. I'll have to look up what to thin it with. Glen, shellac didn't darken the label at all?


----------



## ToddJB

Tim, here is this article. And I also so a few suggestions for applying multiple thin coats of PVA glue.


----------



## racerglen

Tim the shellac didn't darken on the Stanley decal on my 604-c, or on the paper label on the back of my perfection mitre box for sure, but Bob's poly over top could be a more perminant idea. ?


----------



## Tim457

Thanks for the info Glen, yeah the poly or CA would be more permanent, but glossier also.

Todd that is a seriously detailed article, I can't entirely follow it yet. I refers to archival adhesive and archival paste. I'll have to do some digging to find more about those and a supplier. Maybe I'll check with an art supply store or the local museum. I've been wanting to learn more about how the museum people do preservation.


----------



## fumehappy

http://apps.bnt.com/ecom/catalog/category_listing.cfm?ClientID=15&CategoryTLID=55
i've bought some great conservation stuff from here. hxtal for glass, and some of their other adhesives for clock labels. Don't have the bottle with me to help with the exact type at the moment on the labels.


----------



## duckmilk

Bob, I spied a saw on ebay marked Constantine Bros. Sheffield. I'm not buying, but I couldn't find it on your Saw Medallion Reference. Thought you might like to know.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Constantine-Brothers-13-5-backsaw/111655882733?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D30987%26meid%3D184265ccc98743d8b3d042b33b5b2776%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D351396299263&rt=nc


----------



## summerfi

Thanks duck. That's a nice looking saw, and at that price I'll pass too. The medallion looks to be the standard British WS with lion and unicorn.


----------



## TobyC

Constantine Bros.


----------



## TobyC

And.


----------



## TobyC

And.


----------



## duckmilk

> The medallion looks to be the standard British WS with lion and unicorn.
> 
> - summerfi


I zoomed in on the medallion, but couldn't see what it was.


----------



## RPhillips

I need a replacement screw for a Disston that I got from Dad that I wanted to restore. Where can I source one?

I appears to be plated and not of solid brass. I gave me a fit getting it out and I ruined it in the process, not to mention it doesn't move freely.

I'm pretty sure this saw is not all that collectable or valuable, but it was my Dads so that gives it value to me.


----------



## summerfi

Your choices are to either rob one from another old saw,or this:

http://www.amazon.com/Great-Neck-Hand-Replacement-Screws/dp/B000G33PA8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1431994129&sr=8-1&keywords=saw+screws


----------



## grfrazee

@RPhillips, I bought a big bag of them off ebay a while back. If you PM me the dimensions of the saw nuts, I can grab one when I'm at my parents' house next. It might be a few weeks, if you've really itching to take care of it now.


----------



## racerglen

The Robt Sorby dovetail saw from my Mothers day auction collection as was 

















and today








washed handle, very light sand and a coat of BLO, spline and blade taken to 1 thousand grit wet/dry oiled sandpaper









and..without sharpening..
















Handle's a tad loose but my home made split screw driver's too small, previous owner had tried to wedge the tote with a wee chunk of wood, not working, the damage to the nuts is as I got it, still contemplating what to do there.


----------



## RPhillips

> @RPhillips, I bought a big bag of them off ebay a while back. If you PM me the dimensions of the saw nuts, I can grab one when I m at my parents house next. It might be a few weeks, if you ve really itching to take care of it now.
> 
> - grfrazee


That would be awesome! I'll PM you the details. Thanks


----------



## houblon

Found this saw on the flea market today. No medallion, split nuts, probably quite old?
There is a bit of a stamp left; something like ..FAST or …LEAST. Also ..RDY.. or ..FY N..


----------



## chrisstef

Love that sorby glen

Houbs - def old and in great shape in my opinion. Gotta be just a out full width. Its stunning actually. Looks american to me. As to the maker its tough to say but a derusting might revive whats left of a stamp. Hopefully some of the other guys can offer more insight.


----------



## summerfi

That's a cool saw and I agree it looks old, i.e. mid 19th century. It looks British to me, but could also be an early American saw made in the British style. It appears to have a blank medallion? The FAST in the stamp could be CAST as in cast steel. Could you post a close up picture of the stamp? Nice find.

*Edit*: The RDY could be RBY as in Sorby. Compare your handle to this Robert Sorby saw that I sold a while back. Note the similarities of screw placement, thick upper horn, relatively straight profile on the rear of the hand hole, shape of the front area and of the lamb's tongue.










Does your saw have an arised handle (ridge along top of handle) like this one? That is common on Sorby's (and some other British makers).


----------



## putty

Bob, you nailed it, those are the same saws!


----------



## chrisstef

Bobi wan kenobi. The mans a jedi folks.


----------



## houblon

Wow, that looks like it! Although there is no ridge. I will clean it up and see if I can get a picture of the stamp.
Thanks.


----------



## racerglen

made a split nut driver from a new half inch spade bit with a hex shank and used a handle that was available.









Ain't pretty but it worked !!









If I can get caught up on my rust restos it may get a BRK style handle (the driver that is lol..)
Now looking at the nuts, trying to think how to gently tap/reshape them a wee bit without wrecking them ?


----------



## houblon

I started cleanup. There is heavy rust but amazingly almost no pitting.
Now I believe the stamp says "REYMAN" "BELFAST". Could that be an owner's stamp?










But here is the bad news that explains why the saw was not used much. It has a crack in the blade:



















What would you recommend as action? 
I started sanding with 600 and a block. Normally I would just remove the rust and leave it dark. But since I got the shiny spots around the uneven crack, I probably have to do the whole blade to this degree?


----------



## summerfi

houblon - It looks like the stamp may have another word preceding REYMAN, such as


> ?


? & REYMAN, BELFAST. I'm guessing (emphasis on guessing) the saw was made by a British maker for an ironmonger (hardware dealer) in Belfast, Ireland named


> ?


 & REYMAN. You may want to post the saw on backsaw.net to see if the British saw collectors can give any more info on it. They will also estimate it's date.

It's a pity about the cracked plate. The only thing I can suggest is clean it up and use it as is, and if the crack develops further then it becomes a wall hanger, which isn't all bad. With the amount of rust, you'll be at it forever with 600 grit. I would start with 220 grit and work down from there. You may not need to go any finer than 320 or 400.


----------



## TheFridge

Would it be a no-no to find the ends of the cracks and drill them out with a tiny bit?

I typed the above and figured it would be heresy. I think more along the line of having a useable saw.


----------



## summerfi

> Would it be a no-no to find the ends of the cracks and drill them out with a tiny bit?
> 
> - TheFridge


Well, there's not much to lose really. Drilling spring steel saw plate is difficult, and would be especially so with a tiny bit. I'd probably wait on that until I had more info on the potential collector value of the saw. True saw collectors seem to care more about rarity than about condition, but intentional alterations aren't viewed favorably by them.


----------



## bandit571

Road trip today. Stopped at ONE yard sale, as the Boss refused to stop at any others…

BIG pile of junky saws, not really worth the effort to pick them u…...wait one, there is something under the pile..










22" by 4" deep. Plate a bit rusty, but still straight. Teeth seem to be still sharp. Needed two bolts. The price for this relic? Just a dollar bill. It needed two bolts, that I already had, no biggie there. 









About half the finish is missing on the handle, planned on a refinish anyway. The medallion?
"Pennsylvannia Saw Corp." Ever hear of the place?

Plan is to scrub the blade down, refinish the handle a bit, and give it a test run for a while. Just to compare it to the 22" Craftsman saw in it's mitrebox.


----------



## TobyC

That's one of the names used by Disston.


----------



## kwigly

Houblon,

Looks like your saw may be from *Wm PALFREYMAN,* 
Listed as a "Saw Maker and Repairer, 78 Hercules St", in Belfast

He's listed in the Belfast Directories for 1861 and 1868 (and maybe more, these were the first two Belfast directories I checked after guessing the vintage of your saw)
see http://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/ for Directories


----------



## summerfi

kwigly - That is some outstanding sleuthing! Congrats on a very good job.

houblon - You may have a somewhat rare and quite collectable saw. I'm not sure I would do anything more to it. The maker of your saw had a sad ending I'm afraid. The following from the June 12, 1888 Belfast News-Letter:

12 June 1888 - Belfast News-Letter - Belfast, Antrim, Northern Ireland

SUICIDE IN TALBOT SETRLT. ' YESTERDAY morning, at about nine o'clock, it was a discovered that Air. William Palfreyman, saw. f i maker, aged sixty years, of 3 amd 5, Talbot Street, i had committed suicide by hanging himself from 3 a crosm-beam in one of the upper rooms of his pre

12 June 1888 - Belfast News-Letter - Belfast, Antrim, Northern Ireland

THBE INQUEST. Last evening, at a quarter-past five o'clock, Dr. Dill, Borough Coroner, and a jury, held an inquest in tho public-house of irs. A, Clements, 7, Church Street, on the body of Wmn. Palfreyman. Sergtant Mazdden watched the proceedings on behalf'of the police. Marshall


----------



## upchuck

Thank you both. I just love this historical trivia.


----------



## bandit571

Newest saw is now all spiffified up, and a test fit in a mitrebox









No etch was found. But, the medallion does say" Pennsylvannia Saw Corp. York PA"

Starting to get a few mitresaws









Might be able to tell what saw was made by whom? The shortest one is a West German saw, there is a Warranted Superior in there, and a couple Craftsman saws, including the 22" one that came with the mitrebox.

Might just have to build a til for these?


----------



## houblon

Kwigly: how did you find this.??? I'm amazed.
I guess then the saw must be no later than 1888.
I think I should at least stop the rust.
Thanks everybody.


----------



## summerfi

I posted a couple pictures of my new under construction saw till in the furniture forum. While I was at it I thought I'd take a few saw pics to share here. You guys have seen all these saws before, but if you're like me you never get tired of looking.


----------



## ToddJB

Goodness gracious, Bob. Thanks for the pictures. You do astounding work to astounding tools.


----------



## putty

Nice work Bob. Looks like it's full, time to make another half dozen!!!


----------



## Tim457

That is really nice Bob. But since you have a couple hundred saws, how do you decide how big to make the till?


----------



## bandit571

Apparently, there was suppose to be a Quaker style etch on the 22" Pennsylvannia Saw Corp saw?

Haven't found anything, maybe these didn't have one? Very fine teeth on it, leaves a glass smooth cut. Not sure IF they did sell a mitrebox with this saw. Not even sure what saw number it is, other than it is 22" long.

Looked like the spine was elevated towards the handle…but the bolt hole is right at the bottom of the spine. There were only three holes in the plate, too.


----------



## summerfi

> That is really nice Bob. But since you have a couple hundred saws, how do you decide how big to make the till?
> 
> - Tim


I'm not quite up to 200 yet Tim, but as for how big to make the till, that's easy. I don't make them any bigger than I can lift to hang on the wall. ;-)


----------



## TobyC

It's Co. instead of Corp. but,....

List of Disston acquisitions in the 19th century.
Compiled in the July 1906 catalog.
JOHNSON & CONWAY 1857
P. FRALEY & CO. 1859
JOHN GUNNISS 1861
WILLIAM CRESSON 1862
BRINGHURST & VERREE 1866
JAMES TURNER 1867
AARON NICHOLS [no date listed]
HILL & DAVENPORT 1868
WM. & HARVEY ROWLAND 1870
WATERHOUSE SAW CO. 1874
RICHARDSON BROS. 1890
HARVEY W. PEACE CO. 1890

*PENNSYLVANIA SAW CO. 1892*

WHEELER, MADDEN & CLEMSON 1893
WOODROUGH & MCPARLIN 1893
WOODROUGH & CLEMSON 1893
BALDRIDGE & HOGAN SAW CO. 1901
AMERICAN SAW CO. 1901


----------



## TheFridge

I'm gonna have to move to bandits town when I retire. Man, you bring home good cheap stuff home all the time.


----------



## TobyC

Hey Bob,

This is in your label screws, got info to go with it?


----------



## TobyC

Look.


----------



## bandit571

That be the one I have on my saw. York PA.

Some of the saws had a Quaker for an etch, too?


----------



## TobyC

"Looks like it says "Wards"":http://www.toolexchange.com.au/our-tools/saws-saw-devices-disston-saws/623


----------



## bandit571

> ?


----------



## TobyC

My computer is bogus!

Look.


----------



## bandit571

Handle looks a bit different, though









Might be because mine is a 22" saw? Will try to find an etch tomorrow, but don't count on me finding one. It was a might rusty









We'll see….


----------



## summerfi

> Hey Bob,
> 
> This is in your label screws, got info to go with it?
> 
> - TobyC


I'm afraid not. Pennsylvania Saw Company was bought out by Disston in 1892. There was a more recent Pennsylvania Saw Corporation, but I don't have anything on them. Here are a couple saw blades I own by Penn Saw Corp. I don't think they're very old.


----------



## TobyC




----------



## warrenkicker

I was working on some of the saws I picked up a couple of weeks ago. I was trying the blowing to improve the appearance of the etching. Too bad the newer Disstons used printing instead of etching.

Then I started taking apart the big 26" miter saw. The Stanley info on the plate is printing even though the saw is pre-1917. The Simonds info is stamped in the back. The interesting part was when I took off the handle, and it seemed that was the first time it had come off though I can't prove it, that the back was blued under the handle. Has anyone seen that before?

Now for some pictures.


----------



## summerfi

Warren - The spines on Disston No. 4 backsaws were blued. Apparently, as you've discovered, Simonds were as well. Here's a picture and description from the 1923 Simonds catalog.


----------



## warrenkicker

Thanks for that info Bob. Since I found it under there and I had the blueing I put it back down the entire back. I don't have a miter box to put it in and it would come right back off so I don't see it as too much of an issue. Too bad about the Stanley info being printed instead of etched though.


----------



## donwilwol

I think the one I picked up yesterday is the same Simmons.

I can't find a makers mark on the box. It works smooth but does have an old braze on the back post.

I think for $10 I did OK.


----------



## RPhillips

Nice score Don.

Dang, you guys have all the luck.

...wish I could find deals like that. I'd love to have big ole mitre saw like that.


----------



## TheFridge

Amen


----------



## Wally331

My miter box restore is nearly done. I just need to to get outside and wire brush two last parts. Been too rainy lately.

Here's a little dovetail saw I'm working on for a fellow lj. The blade will be a different size but this is just what I had laying around. Handles are still evolving.


----------



## racerglen

Beauty Wally ! Really needs a makers mark on the medallion to totally set it off.. hmmmm.

Here's my latest restore, decided to take a break from more serious stuff and laid out $2.00 for something I rarely use.









Disston Canada keyhole, really didn't expect the color change after the scrape, sand and reshape of the handle with 2 coats of BLO .








I've always found the grip area to be a tight fit, even for my hand so opened it up and added detail to the bottom using my Sorby tote as a partial pattern.








My oldest, the one who tends to leave things out in the rain, can have the other one, not sure of it's manufacturer but I bought it in the '70's , no etch no stamp and rivited handle.


----------



## Tugboater78

I decided to do a cleaning of My xcut D8 and ran into a small issue, 2 of the nuts wont come loose and the bolts just spin with it. Tried a few things to force it loose but now down to options which may harm the tote and or the bolt.

Any suggestions? No pic atm, but will get some in the mornin. If needed.


----------



## summerfi

Tug, clamp the handle solidly between two boards. One of the boards should have a hole in it that fits over the slotted part of the screw. The other board will hold tension on the other side of the screw. Put your screwdriver in the hole and turn the nut off.


----------



## Tugboater78

> Tug, clamp the handle solidly between two boards. One of the boards should have a hole in it that fits over the slotted part of the screw. The other board will hold tension on the other side of the screw. Put your screwdriver in the hole and turn the nut off.
> 
> - summerfi


Thanks bob!


----------



## Tugboater78

Hmm.. the bolts cause me problems…










Plate looks a lot better









Interesting?
7 or 8? Definitely an 8 but 7 was hiding under the tote.









Pic didnt come out well but there is an 8 stamped at heel


----------



## bandit571

The "8" stamp is for the tooth count, as in 8points per inch, or 8ppi.


----------



## racerglen

Tug, usually the number stamped at the heel is the number of teeth per inch that the factory cut.
Opps, Bandit beat me to it lol..


----------



## bandit571

Old, pitted and patina-ed Sanvik plate, gets a firewood handle









Firewood smell like Maple, too. 









Made from scratch, of course…


----------



## Tugboater78

Oh.. ok, im sure that was something mentioned in the past i missed. So whats the 7 for? Its a D8 saw.. or i was prettysure it is.


----------



## ToddJB

There is some confusion above. The D8 etch indicates that it is a D8. The stamped 7 indicates that is was likely originally 7ppi


----------



## Tugboater78

Ok then! Well i got plate cleaned and been working on getting the cracked and flaking lacher off the tote, beauyiful wood when i put DnA on what i have cleared. Shaping a little bit to be a bit more comfortable.


----------



## ToddJB

> There is some confusion above. The D8 etch indicates that it is a D8. The stamped 7 indicates that is was likely originally 7ppi
> 
> - ToddJB


Edit: I take back the confidence of my statement. I missed that you said there was a 8 stamped at the heel. Bandit is right, that would have been the way it was sharpened. I'm not sure what the 7 stamp is for, but you most assuredly have a D8. Sorry to add to the confusion.


----------



## Tugboater78

Got her cleaned up and back together.. less 2 steel bolts/nuts used some brass ones from a donor D8 with a trashed tote and worn out plate. Could just go all brass if i had 1 brass nut, or all steel if had 2 steel bolts.. oh the joy. Ill see if i can come across either or both..
Top 2 d8s before









And after


----------



## upchuck

Tug-
PM me if you are interested in swapping your brass for my steel saw nuts. I just happen to have the reverse problem.
chuck


----------



## chrisstef

The stamp under the handle is a bit of a mystery tugger. Some of the "extra refined" saws like the 99, 9, and 12 will have "x" stamped under the handle. Ive seen it on a couple of saws but no one really knows for sure what it means. Ive seen both letters and numbers.


----------



## bandit571

Rust hunt treasures









What did you expect for $4 total? Cheap flush cut pull saw, a steel Stanley square without any numbers on it, and a Millers Falls No.2 Fret saw…will be cleaning them up today..

Not sure what wood is in the handle of that fret saw…


----------



## Waterlog

Hello all, Where can I find a good tutorial on bringing back the etch on saws? Could not find any on YouTube. Did find one entry here but was hoping for more info. I am worried about loosing the etch that I do have on this Moore Bros. saw I just found. I have found 2 Moore Bros. saw on the past couple of weekends and had never seen one before now. Are they uncommon? Thanks. Lester


----------



## ToddJB

Waterlog,

JayT, has a nice blog about it: http://lumberjocks.com/JayT/blog/40491


----------



## Waterlog

Here is the subject Moore Bros. saw etch.

Lester


----------



## bandit571

Not sure IF the saw is a coping saw, or a fret saw. Might be both. It does take pin-less saw blades. My scroll saw takes pin ones, as do my three coping saws…..figures. Will be working on the "new" saw, to see just how it works.

As for that flush cut pull saw…..a bit on the flimsy side. bends a bit. Might keep it to trim plugs down with. Definately NOT a dovetail type of saw. Turned one of those down today. Twas a short one, and they wanted $8 for it…..already have two, and both are twice as long as that one was…

Third item I picked today was a Stanley 8" all metal square, and it wasn't even a try-square. It does have barely readable numbers on it. It is 8" from the end back to the handle. I checked it for square….darn close.

$4 for all three items, wasn't too hateful a morning.


----------



## Waterlog

I call it "tote on a stick", after a coat of tru oil. This is probably not a revelation but, this is how I hold a tote to apply the finish and to dry afterwards. I've been "grounded" for a week by the wife, no estate or garage sales today. Lester


----------



## daddywoofdawg

Clean your room and write her a pretty card.maybe you can get ungrounded.lol


----------



## duckmilk

> The stamp under the handle is a bit of a mystery tugger. Some of the "extra refined" saws like the 99, 9, and 12 will have "x" stamped under the handle. Ive seen it on a couple of saws but no one really knows for sure what it means. Ive seen both letters and numbers.
> 
> - chrisstef


Just a dumb guess, but do you suppose the "x" stands for crosscut? Maybe stamped so the next person in line of the manufacturing process would know how to sharpen it?

LWB, good idea


----------



## Waterlog

Well, I did my first etch restore using Perma Blue Paste Gun Blue today. They were out of the liquid at the gun shop so, I got the paste. The paste may be easier to control than the liquid. The first photo (if they imported in the right order) is of the Moore Bros. plate pre bluing after cleaning with denatured alcohol. Also, on this restore, I never sanded any of the rust from the plate, just brushed it off and soaked it in vinegar for about 10 hours. Wiped the vinegar/rust off, oiled it to prevent flash rust and then then today, cleaned off the oilf, and then cleaned again with the alcohol. Applied the bluing gel, hosed off the bluing after about 3 minutes. The second coat provided a slightly darker etch, was better but I could see a shadow where the edge of the second coat of bluing paste had been. Next time I may blue the whole plate on the second coat. I did not blue a 3rd coat because I could see I was starting to sand away part of my etch. Switched to 600 grit. Called it good and waxed it up. I am quite happy with the results for my first try but now that I see how easy it is, I will definitely be doing all my saws if there is even the slightest hint of an etch. I also think that not sanding the plate before the bluing process leaves you a deeper etch to start with, possibly allowing for a better result. Hope somebody gets something out of this. Lester Thanks go out to JayT, I followed his blog on the bluing process.


----------



## chrisstef

Hell yea ^


----------



## ToddJB

Came out great, Lester. Looks awesome.


----------



## JayT

Oh yeah, Lester, that turned out great! I've never used the paste, but might have to try it in the future with the results you got.

When doing these, I only blue around the etch, but sand the whole plate to keep things nice and even. It helps prevent those edges.


----------



## RPhillips

nice!


----------



## racerglen

Wow ! That came up great, didn't know there was a bluing paste .


----------



## lateralus819

Nice job I have that same saw my Grandfather gave me.


----------



## Waterlog

Here is the bluing paste I used on the MB etch, only $8 and is enough to do a couple dozen saws.



















Has anyone ever seen a saw like this one with the wood and copper tote? The copper is riveted on so, I cannot remove the tote. It looks to be quite old and has character, probably not particularly valuable but well worth $1. Thanks.

Lester


----------



## Tim457

Wow, nice job Lester. I'll have to keep an eye out for the paste, I've been meaning to try bluing.

No idea on the copper handle saw, but it's interesting for sure.


----------



## summerfi

Impressive job on the etch Lester. Harvey Peace of Vulcan Saw Works made a saw with the copper/wood handle, and probably some other makers as well. I've seen them bring good prices on ebay. Certainly worth more than $1.


----------



## DonBroussard

Lester-That etch really came out crisp and clean. I also want to give you a shout out for the tote-on-a-stick tip. I used it yesterday to refinish a thumby tote and it worked very well. I used a pencil sharpener to make a tip sharp to put through the medallion's hole and then held it in my vice. Thanks, Lester!


----------



## Waterlog

I was a little timid about trying the bluing process in fear of ruining a saw. Now that I have done it, if you are hesitant, don't be. Just have all your stuff at hand and it is a breeze with an immediate payoff.

Thanks Bob for the info, appreciate it.

The "tote-on-a-stick" I made from a dowel with a Kreg screw through a hole in the tote. I can hold it up side down or right side up while I apply finish. Just have to always be aware the screw stays tight so the tote does not fall off.

Lester


----------



## Buckethead

Waterlog, you've inspired me to spruce a couple of my girls up a bit. Great results. I have heard about using the bluing agent, but not seen such clear results on the before/after. Thanks for that!


----------



## terryR

+2 or 3 to the thanks Waterlog, I didn't know a paste existed, either.
Nice job!

Great find on that bronze handle…


----------



## Waterlog

Thanks all for the kind words on the bluing. I have gotten so much help from all of you over the past few months, especially Bob, I am glad I am able to pay some of it back. Now for a little experiment. I am going to try a "blind" bluing on this Vulcan Saw Works saw. I see nothing of an etch but I am going to go for it anyway and see what happens.


----------



## bandit571

Ok, have a few more photos to share for those that like these things









Spent $5 on this little saw. Almost 7" long, and maybe 2" wide for the plate. Barely used, still sharp. Strange broomstick handle though, with hanger hole









Jury is still out on whether this is a 12" deep coping saw, or just a fret saw. Replace the added on bolts with more normal thumbscrews. Pinless scrollsaw blade on-board. This is one LONG saw, needed two pics to get it all









And, unlike that little dovetail saw, this one has a name on it! Millers Falls No.2 from Millers Falls MA no less.

At least it's handle looks better that a broom stick…


----------



## Waterlog

This is the result of the "blind" bluing experiment on the Harvey Peace saw. You can see the before pic in a previous photo. It did uncover an etch however, it is tough to make out. With some super zooming examination, I can make out "VULCAN SAW MFG CO", "???? WORKS", "BROOKLYN, NY", "TRADE MARK, SET AND FILED". With saw in hand, it is hard to see with the naked I, but you can see that an etch exists. Result: it allowed me to at least verify it is a Vulcan Saw Works saw. Knowledge gained plus a theory: the etch was degradated by the second sanding after the second application of the bluing. My theory is to only apply the bluing once but, let it work a little longer before washing it off and stop sanding if it looks like you are starting to loose your etch. FYI. In conclusion, the saw is pretty cool.

Lester


----------



## bandit571

Tested a couple new saws this morning









This is a $5 small dovetail saw from over the weekend. Under 7" long, 2" wide, counting the spine, haven't done anything to it, except remove the price sticker.









Study in Flimsy. A Pull saw to flush cut items, maybe? $1 might have been too much?
This saw is one I traded for awhile back, I think it cost me a Sears #4 smooth plane with a cracked side?









Cleaned up into a Disston & Sons No.7 Didn't even have to sharpen it. It also has two etches, one on the spine, and one on the plate









Wonder which one I will keep in the shop…....


----------



## Wally331

Here's that dovetail saw I was working on with a little finish on her. Still need to de-blue, polish, and file the blade.


----------



## racerglen

So having solved the split nut driver issue, back to 400 grit with handle off, then up to a thou and autosol

















nuther coat of BLO, gentle shineup on the nuts









Tried a wee bit to re shape the nuts but decided the risk of teminal damage was too great.


----------



## chrisstef

Thats lookin love love glen.


----------



## racerglen

Thanks Stef, So glad to be getting some stuff done.


----------



## donwilwol

Fantastic Glen.


----------



## TheFridge

Those are some shiny nuts


----------



## warrenkicker

Went to my church's yearly garage sale. Thought it might be a good source of some old tools. Saw some things that were old but in pretty bad condition. Then I saw the saws. There were two with broken handles but Disston medallions. The bolts and nuts were brass so I thought at the minimum they could be stripped for parts. One of the blades was marked as a D8 but it didn't have a thumb hole tote. The other was so rusty I couldn't even make out if there was an etch. They asked $2 for both but since it was for the youth group I gave them some more. After sanding a little I found what looked like a stamp instead of an etch. The problem with that in my mind is that the hardware was all brass. Can anyone help with the thin blade as to what it might be? The shield has thick boarders on the top edge. The holes in the blade match a D-23 but the teeth are actually above the bottom edge of the tote. 

















Then with some of the cleaning up here are some after shots for other saws.
Here is the 26" miter saw. 









And here is the D-12 Lightweight


----------



## bandit571

Last garage sale of the weekend! Finally!

Picked up this little gem for a quarter









Maybe build a panel saw around it?


----------



## WillliamMSP

Picked up my first western saw for a handful of dollars. Since I don't have a lick of experience sharpening saws, I kept looking for something that seemed to just need a bit of a touch-up, as far as the teeth are concerned, and not jointing or re-shaping. This one seems to fit the bill - it's a cross cut from Black Diamond Saw Co, which I'm lead to believe was owned or made by Disston. In any event, I cleaned some of the muck off of it and, other than needing a little time with a file, it looks like it'll be ready to be put to use.


----------



## theoldfart

Todays find, 1888 to 1896 Diston 8, nibs intact, 7PPI, don't think its ever been sharpened


----------



## summerfi

Nice Kevin. How can you tell it's a NO. 8; does it have a clear etch?


----------



## theoldfart

Not that I can see, the screw layout and outline look like the Distonian site picture. It is a guess, I was looking for you and Toby to bless my guess!


----------



## summerfi

LOL bless your heart Kevin.
I think it may be a No. 7 since the handle looks like beech. If it is apple, then it is probably a No. 8.


----------



## bandit571

Rumour Control says that panel saw handle MIGHT be a Simonds made one…..Hmmm?

Anyone like it? I don't have the hardware to build a Simonds Panel saw, with just the handle on hand. Needs a plate, and the three bolts. Just saying…PM if interesrted….( Cost me 25 cents….)


----------



## theoldfart

Bob, there is some ray flecking on the inside edge of the hand hole. Not sure if this is a sign of beech or apple.


----------



## chrisstef

Can we get a pic of the stamp warren? I wonder if the wheat carving and the age of a stamp migjt help peg that saw? Its beyond my knowledge base unfortunately.

Good hauls had all around fellas.


----------



## kwigly

warrenkicker,
Looks like your pointy saw might be a D-20, 1928-ish
see http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/d23page.html
[The saw plate has been reduced by repeated sharpenings (maybe re-toothings too) so that the toothline is now up to the base of the handle]


----------



## terryR

soft saw porn for your pleasure…


----------



## racerglen

Butter not be soft ;-)


----------



## TheFridge

Heard they make some great saws


----------



## Brit

+1 for it being beech and a No.7 Kevin


----------



## theoldfart

Yes but Andy, I want it to be an 8! Already have a 7, albeit a bit rusty


----------



## Wally331

That's a nice looking No.7 Kevin, very shapely.
Finished up this trio of saws for a fellow Lj today. One is a Disston no.8 at 7tpi rip, one is a C. Laudolff 22" x-cut panel saw, and lastly a 10" dovetail saw. Good and sharp, ready to go.


----------



## theoldfart

Why is everyone not listening, its not a seven. cuz I say so thats why!


----------



## WayneC

LOL


----------



## summerfi

Nice No. 8 Kevin!


----------



## warrenkicker

Here is the thin blade etch. The LIGHTWEIGHT etch was a bit of a surprise but I expected that a lot of the blade was missing. After some more cleaning maybe bluing will show some more.


----------



## Buckethead

Seven rhyms with Kevin. I can see where the confusion was inevitable. ;-)


----------



## RPhillips

> That s a nice looking No.7 Kevin, very shapely.
> Finished up this trio of saws for a fellow Lj today. One is a Disston no.8 at 7tpi rip, one is a C. Laudolff 22" x-cut panel saw, and lastly a 10" dovetail saw. Good and sharp, ready to go.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Wally331


Damn, looking SWEET! Can't wait to get my hands on them!


----------



## theoldfart

Bob, thank you, you understand

Bucket, just what are you tying to say?


----------



## ArlinEastman

OK guys

This is my first time here on this post.

I do not know anything about saws except that they cut and should not be used for opening paint cans. 
I just down loaded Brit's video about sharpening and it had so much info my brain is cramped up.

I have been teaching vets like me how to turn their own pens & pencils and started 2 years ago with teaching using planes. I have not done anything with saws since I have one and do not know if it is rip or crosscut nor do I know how to properly use them. So I guess that is why I am now here.
I want to learn how to do dovetails and box joints and then teach it to them when I get enough learning to teach them.

Any help out there.


----------



## summerfi

Hey Arlin, welcome to the saw thread.

There's a lot of great info on the internet about how to cut dovetails. Even the furniture maker's thread here on LJ is a great place to learn. But you live close to an expert dovetailer, and a few hours with him would probably be more helpful than all the reading you could do. Of course I'm talking about Dan (BigRedKnothead). Better catch him before he gets too busy with his pending move though.

As for sharpening saws, it can be intimidating at first, but just about anyone can learn. Brit's (Andy's) video is the right place to start. If you need your saw sharpened right away, send it to me and I'll sharpen it for free. My contribution to the work you do for Vets. Dan will vouch for my sharpening. PM me if interested.


----------



## chrisstef

Ill back Bob up with another sharpening offer. If you have multiples id be happy to sharpen one for you as well Arlin. I cant say it will be as precise as Bob's work but it'll cut


----------



## ArlinEastman

**Bob

Thank you for the kind offer but I only have 1 saw and it is do dull I have never used it. One other thing. I was stationed at Malmstrom AFB in Great Falls MT for 8 years and I loved every minute of it. I always wanted to retire there but alas I am here instead and yes I met Dan and he has come to my house several times.
I gave him all of his woodturning stuff including lathe and all the tools. About 3 weeks ago I gave him some good instruction on using the Bowl Gouge.
Lastly I never have enough funds to ship things out to others unless I am giving something away to someone else or if it is big they have to pay shipping too.

Like I do for Red I almost always give things away. I know I should not since I could use the funds for other things but well that is just who I am. I have also gave Red a lot of planes too.


 Chrisstef

Thank you for the kind offer also.


Right now I am looking for a few good dovetail saws for cutting dovetails and box joints and maybe a panel saw of some kind but I do not know how the teeth should be.


----------



## theoldfart

Arlin, I may be able to send you a panel saw once you figure out what size and cut type your looking for. I can attest to Bob's expertise, I have two beautiful vintage saws he did for me. Stef has done work for several LJ's and they have been profuse in their praise of his work as well.
Let me know


----------



## summerfi

Arlin, a dovetail saw should have rip teeth, and pretty fine ones at that. I like 16 points per inch or finer. A panel saw can have either rip or crosscut teeth, depending on what you plan to do with it. Around 8 to 11 ppi is good on panel saw, again depending on what you want to do with it. Once you learn to sharpen saws, it's pretty easy to change a saw from rip to crosscut and vice versa.


----------



## ArlinEastman

I will have to get back to you guys. My wife is in St Louis with my daughter and I was called and told I am a Grandpa again to a little girl.


----------



## summerfi

Congrats on the granddaughter Arlin. That's certainly more important than saws.


----------



## theoldfart

Great news Arlin, grand kids are about as good as it gets!


----------



## BigRedKnothead

> **Bob
> 
> Thank you for the kind offer but I only have 1 saw and it is do dull I have never used it. One other thing. I was stationed at Malmstrom AFB in Great Falls MT for 8 years and I loved every minute of it. I always wanted to retire there but alas I am here instead and yes I met Dan and he has come to my house several times.
> I gave him all of his woodturning stuff including lathe and all the tools. About 3 weeks ago I gave him some good instruction on using the Bowl Gouge.
> Lastly I never have enough funds to ship things out to others unless I am giving something away to someone else or if it is big they have to pay shipping too.
> 
> Like I do for Red I almost always give things away. I know I should not since I could use the funds for other things but well that is just who I am. I have also gave Red a lot of planes too.
> 
> 
> Chrisstef
> 
> Thank you for the kind offer also.
> 
> 
> Right now I am looking for a few good dovetail saws for cutting dovetails and box joints and maybe a panel saw of some kind but I do not know how the teeth should be.
> 
> - Arlin Eastman


Arlin, don't take this the wrong way, but in my eye's we made some trades. Of course, I'm speaking of the shop cabinet I built, new bench vise, turning blanks, and donation I made for the recent planes.

Not a big deal, but I don't feel like that part was conveyed. That is, you are very generous, but I've made a concerted effort not to take advantage of that.


----------



## ArlinEastman

Dan

Thank you for posting that. As you know I do not remember things to well.
He has also gave me a few nice exotic pieces of wood too.


----------



## TheFridge

took me a min to figure out who Dan was


----------



## RPhillips

Got me a package today…

package of AWESOME!


----------



## theoldfart

Rob, like OMG! Beautiful restores


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Wow! All three are incredible, one better than the other!

Here's an opposite, best example of cows and calves I've seen:


----------



## putty

Looks like Piranah teeth Smitty


----------



## Brit

Looks like a good one to learn on Smitty. )


----------



## chrisstef

If ya got a spare 5 hours ^

Awesome set rob!


----------



## RPhillips

Huge thanks to Wally! you're the man! Love the saws.

This is only the beginning…


----------



## Wally331

Glad to hear you like em Rob! That dovetail saw was pretty difficult to send out. I wanted to keep it for myself!


----------



## ArlinEastman

> Wow! All three are incredible, one better than the other!
> 
> Here s an opposite, best example of cows and calves I ve seen:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Smitty_Cabinetshop


It looks like they were made like that and I am thinking why? Is it to help clear the chips better?

**
O and by the way my Daughter had a little girl last Tuesday. So I am a Grandpa of 1 Grandson and 3 Granddaughters. My wife brought our Grandson home with her for 3 weeks or so and I am loving it.


----------



## ArlinEastman

> Got me a package today…
> 
> package of AWESOME!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - RPhillips


Those do look like some great saws. Have you used them yet?


----------



## theoldfart

> Why is everyone not listening, its not a seven. cuz I say so thats why!
> 
> - theoldfart


 OK you guys win, it's a 7. Started cleaning it and there is a faint etch, damn thing says 7! Also it's stamped 7 at the tooth line BUT also stamped 7 under the tote.


----------



## summerfi

Kevin, you could always do one of these if it would bring you happiness. ;-)


----------



## RPhillips

> Got me a package today…
> 
> package of AWESOME!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - RPhillips
> 
> Those do look like some great saws. Have you used them yet?
> 
> - Arlin Eastman


Since you mentioned it, I made a few cuts on some 7/8" red oak and they cut very nicely! Looks like I'm gonna need a proper saw till soon…


----------



## theoldfart

Bob, I'm going to consider your idea carefully!


----------



## ArlinEastman

> Arlin, I may be able to send you a panel saw once you figure out what size and cut type your looking for. I can attest to Bob s expertise, I have two beautiful vintage saws he did for me. Stef has done work for several LJ s and they have been profuse in their praise of his work as well.
> Let me know
> 
> - theoldfart





> Arlin, a dovetail saw should have rip teeth, and pretty fine ones at that. I like 16 points per inch or finer. A panel saw can have either rip or crosscut teeth, depending on what you plan to do with it. Around 8 to 11 ppi is good on panel saw, again depending on what you want to do with it. Once you learn to sharpen saws, it s pretty easy to change a saw from rip to crosscut and vice versa.
> 
> - summerfi


Bob

On the panel saw I do not think I could use it for ripping so a Crosscut would be best for us. I also do not know the right PPI or TPI whichever one we go by here for cutting pine and some local hardwoods.

On the dovetail saw we just need one to cut dovetails and box joints so what everyone is saying 14 to 16 for the same as above crosscut panel saw.

Thanks guys.

Hopefully Dan will come over pretty soon.

O and lastly my grandson 6 and I have been working on a birdhouse and he is finishing painting it today. My wife got some pictures of us and I will post them as soon as I get the camera from her.


----------



## duckmilk

Still waiting patiently for those pictures Arlin.


----------



## ArlinEastman

Sorry I posted them in Stumpy's forum but here they are




























He helped my lay it out then watched me cut the pieces on the bandsaw then we predrilled the holes for the screws which I held the drill and he pulled the trigger then he painted it all himself.

Also this same day I gave him his own hammer and needle nose pliers with hundreds of different nails and some small 1×4s and 2×4s and he spent the next two days pounding nails in a 8" 2×4. The night before he left and after he had taken a shower before bedtime he asked to pound more nails and I said OK.


----------



## duckmilk

Good times


----------



## TobyC

> Todays find, 1888 to 1896 Diston 8, nibs intact, 7PPI, don t think its ever been sharpened
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - theoldfart


That's a No. 7, nice saw, early 8s are harder to find.


----------



## TobyC

Hi Arlin, didn't know you were over here.


----------



## ArlinEastman

Hi Toby

Sure is nice meeting you here.


----------



## bandit571

Place got a bit quiet lately…..so, a before and after of a yard sale find today..









Very high priced saw, now.









High priced? Well









Disston D-23? For free? Yep. Didn't take too much effort to clean it up, either









A little brass polishing, some O'Sullivan's Furniture Polish of the cleaned up wood works, and a plate cleaned off









Even tried to "clock" all those bolts, using a Millers Falls Screwdriver I picked up a couple weeks ago









Wood had zero cracks in it, plate was straight, teeth were sharp, zero rust pits. Might just be worth the zero dollars i spent on it?


----------



## realcowtown_eric

Do any of you saw nuts have any links to resources or information about patternmakers saws. I have a Disston, but today picked up two similar ( One labelled Boyton. sheffield, tje ther no name. ) These have all the appearance of saws from a boy's tool kit if you look at size, but if you look at thickness of saw plate, maybe not so.

UK handsaw wite hasn't coughed up info yet.

Eric in Calgary.

oh, ya, the were a buck each (that's 75cents US!)


----------



## warrenkicker

I think I have caught the sickness. I paid $0.50 today for a saw just because it had a Disston medallion and a very rusty plate. No etch or marking found and the handle is beech but appears to be a replacement. Oh well. At least I have some brass hardware for another saw.

Here are before and after on what is speculated as a D-20 Lightweight. The tote was in terrible shape and I only had 3 of the 4 parts it had broken into. Well another tote I got with it was missing a much larger part of it so it donated the section of handle missing. Turned out that while the D-8 handle was apple the D-20 tote was something softer. Originally the tote had a screw where they tried to repair it long ago so I used a very long screw to reinforce the handle. I think I should also shorten the blade as it is so thin there is no strength left.


----------



## putty

Yep Warren, you are right with your self diagnosis. It is a sickness, only temporarily cured by an acquisition of your latest tool craving. In advanced stages you know your sickness is chronic when you cant drive by an antique store and not think about stopping in, or waking up on a Friday morning thinking that estate sales start today, or spending hours searching Ebay. This sickness will metastasize into craving hand planes, chisels, and any other old tool

Good luck with your sickness, I wish you well


----------



## theoldfart

Putty, it's not a sickness, I can stop anytime I want to…........really….......honest…............I think….........hmmmmmm


----------



## richardwootton

> Putty, it s not a sickness, I can stop anytime I want to…........really….......honest…............I think….........hmmmmmm
> 
> - theoldfart


I'm not "addicted" per se, I just get a little shaky when I don't have some fresh rust on hand. And if a don't have a tub of Evaporust filled with old iron I have a hard time sleeping at night. But that's pretty normal, right?


----------



## bandit571

I have no idea what you fellows are talking about…....LOL


----------



## TobyC

Hey cowtown_eric,

When's the last time you checked the Canadian site?


----------



## marcb

I should find the time to document my collection (I have literally dozens, several dating back to pre civil war)

Here are two backsaws I made new handles for.


----------



## terryR

^Nice work on the totes!

BTW, great investment on the 50¢ saw…medallions go for much higher on eBay…


----------



## DLK

So exactly what should one include in the documentation of hand tools?


----------



## donwilwol

> So exactly what should one include in the documentation of hand tools?
> 
> - Combo Prof


I'd say Anything that can be found


----------



## terryR

Don, this could be different for each of us. But I like to record everything I can discover about the tool's origin. Date of manufacture, place, any notes on the maker, and anything special on the tool. (applicable patents, appearance of new design changes, different materials used)

I also try to record my date of purchase and price for future laughs. "Remember when a rusty Stanley No.3 SW plane could be bought for $30?" 

For saws, I have to write down any specifics on the teeth just to remember. For some reason ppi is tough for me to recall without measuring.

Would like to hear others' practices!


----------



## Brit

> So exactly what should one include in the documentation of hand tools?
> 
> - Combo Prof
> 
> I d say Anything that can be found
> 
> - Don W


Amen to that. If everyone did that, it makes it a hell of a lot easier for the next generation.


----------



## Brit

Seller says this is a "Vintage Unusual Hand Saw". Really! I guess that's one way to look at a saw that should have been retired long ago. Got to admire the previous owner's frugality though.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Double post, but a LJ Buy came today:




























From warren in witchita to smitty in So. Ill! A 20" that is destined for a Stanley 150 matchup!


----------



## chrisstef

That pic is messin withy eyes Andy. Left ones twitchin a lil. Almost looks like it was a panorama pic.

Nice new pairing there smitty! Let me know how a 20" work in the 150.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Stef, initial reading is, with all due respect to Mark Harrell, the 20" backsaw/Stanley 150 combo is Da Bomb…


----------



## chrisstef

Really ….. I do believe ill try that. Gives me somethin to hunt for too.


----------



## Tim457

I agree Stef, that picture makes your eyes hurt like those blurry word t-shirts. Handle says it's flat, but the blade says it's tilted away from you. Back and forth to figure it out.

Nice score Smitty. There was a 150 posted near me for a reasonable amount, but I need another mitre box like a hole in my head.


----------



## Waterlog

Hello all,
I was wondering if anyone has ever seen a saw like this? I am trying to zero in on the manufacturer and possibly a date range. You can see the before, the total saw blade is 10" and had an open tote. The close up of the etch is what was uncovered after bluing. It is called "THE IMP" and the logo highlights the letter "K". Thanks in advance.
Lester


----------



## Buckethead

I can't help, waterlogged, but will say, that's a nice looking saw. I'm guessing those aren't split nuts?

Maybe not the oldest, but old, and maybe not too common. Maybe you have a treasure there?


----------



## putty

I would guess that it was originally longer, looks like it had been cut down sometime in its life.


----------



## chrisstef

I think bandit had an imp saw at one point in time. I wish i could recall more info but my brain is mushy.


----------



## bandit571

Disston No. 91. the imp. was about the same as their Keystone saws. It was a 26" long straight backed crosscut saw. 8ppi.


----------



## TobyC

Waterlog,

That looks like a "table saw" that's been shortened,... "The Imp" was a second line hand saw sold by Disston, but that obviously isn't a hand saw.

This is a table saw (Brown's) that was sold by Disston.


----------



## TobyC

"The Imp" hand saw can be seen Here on page 140.


----------



## TobyC

This is interesting.










Here.

From here.


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## TobyC

With " REG. U.S. PAT. OFF." on your saw, I'm gonna say it's a Disston, made 1900 ~ 1910.

But don't quote me on that.


----------



## bandit571

This was the IMP saw I had last year









Somehow was a skew back, too









Cleaned up rather nicely









don't you think?


----------



## Buckethead

GUIS WATERLOGS SAW SAYS IMP RIGHT ON IT THATS IT WE DID IT CONGRATULATIONS ERRBUDDY


----------



## Waterlog

Holy cow, fantastic info guys, thanks a ton for your help. The tote on this one was open but was beyond hope. I will either sell the blade and 2 bolts, if anybody wants it or put it on the shelf until I get time to make a tote. I would rather sell it to you folks than eBay. It doesn't look cut off, but I could be wrong. Thanks again. Lester


----------



## duckmilk

Had some time to go rust huntimg today. Found this Disston & Sons 12, 28", 4 1/2 tpi, intact nib, tip of top horn missing and one brass nut loose, but handle is still tight, $24 and change. Didn't know how good a deal it may be, but when I saw the handle and nib, I went for it. Appears to have never been sharpened, but has some light use. Still sharp, will cut something with it tomorrow.

As found pics:



















Pics of the etch were hard to get and the etch itself appears fairly faint.














































To the best I can see, the staining at the toe is not pitting, just that crackling that appears sometimes when exposed to moisture.

Also have been looking for a single bit axe and found a Keen Kutter with very good handle. Also a wardmaster coping saw and interesting ice tongs with what appears to be brass hinges stamped "D Henderson, Dallas, Tex".


----------



## chrisstef

Great score duck. You did mighty fine with that purchase.


----------



## duckmilk

Thanks, that place also had 2 nice looking Stanley #2 & #2C planes for sale, not cheap though. About $395 iirc.


----------



## putty

Nice jib Duck, sounds like you went to my honey hole…they have 2 # 2's there. Was it off of I-35?


----------



## duckmilk

Hehehe


----------



## duckmilk

There's a bunch of them downtown north of the square. I have an dentist appointment Thurs and was planning on a little walkabout down there ahead of time.


----------



## G5Flyr

After reading through these posts it sounds like you guys know your stuff when it comes to saws so I need your help. Are the Stanley sharp tooth saws intended for both cross cuts and rips? It seems like the tooth geometry combines both to make a hybrid or am I wrong?

I'm a newbie to the craft and I'm trying to go the non-powered route whenever possible. I'm still learning how to saw straight and accurate with a hand saw. I've got a 20" Stanley Sharp Tooth (approx 8 TPI). It is great on cross cuts and seems to do OK with rips. I'm wondering if the tooth geometry is intended for rips or should I buy a dedicated rip saw? I didn't want to fork over the $$$ for good saws until I really knew what I was doing. I was afraid of bending the plate, etc. I learned that philosophy the hard way with some other tools (don't ask).

As always any help will be much appreciated.


----------



## DanKrager

NoVa,
This is an anonymous forum. Full disclosure is honored! Welcome to the thread.

In the light of full disclosure, I'm a saw light weight. I'm in the process of restoring several old saws to populate my tills.

I believe your assessment of dual function is correct on that saw. It's a marketing effort to minimize production costs while still meeting (sort of) customer's needs in a disposable market. I think you will find saws dedicated to rip and crosscut to be more efficient and perhaps easier to use. Earlier in this epic thread there has been an assessment of what a well equipped woodworker would have in the way of hand saws. I don't remember who or how long ago it was posted, but that's basically what I'm shooting for. 









Oh, and the rule of thumb is "pictures or it didn't happen". Get a close up of the teeth in good light so the experts can get a good look-see.
DanK
edit: I LOVE cutting the wheat pattern in apple wood! I'll get some pictures later.


----------



## RPhillips

Nova, I have one of those sharp tooth Stanley offerings, and it is hybrid of sorts. It doesn't not work nearly as good for rip as a dedicated rip does. Crosscut seems to be fine though.

There are a few LJ's that refurbish and make saws, I bought a couple and have been very satisfied with the results. PM me if your interested and I'll give you more info.


----------



## G5Flyr

Dan and Rob,

Thank you for the quick replies. That's good info.

Rob: RE buying a restored saw, I'll PM you after I feel more confident in my sawing abilities.

Dan: RE your comment "This is an anonymous forum. Full disclosure is honored!" You really want to know how bad I screwed up don't you? It's a long story but basically I wrecked two Hock plane irons and more than one chisel on a Craftsman var. speed 6" electric grinder into which I dumped a ton of upgrades. Norton white wheels (80 and 120 grit), wheel balancing kit, two Veritas fully articulating tool rests, diamond wheel dresser AND a Veritas grinding jig. I built a stand that sat on my bench so that the wheels were at chest height (no bending over). The chisels were nothing special, HD plastic handled stuff. After I wrecked the 2nd Hock blade I sold the grinder for a lot less than I paid. I now grind, hone and polish with Silicon Carbide paper on a 9"x12"x2" (A grade) granite block. A side clamp honing guide keeps the tools aligned and my sanity intact.

I am probably guilty of a myriad of sins with other tools as well. As Rob's signature block says, I am… "Learning… one mistake at a time…" I wish I had come up with that.

Thanks again for the info guys!

Dave


----------



## upchuck

Hey NoVaDave-
I'll bet you a shiny new dime that those ruined Hock irons are salvageable. All of the stuff you mentioned doesn't seem like enough firepower to truly ruin them beyond repair. 
chuck


----------



## DanKrager

Agreed, Upchuck.

Thanks, NovaDave. I was mostly rattling your chain, but we're a nosy bunch and that's how we get acquainted. It's easier to be helpful when you know the context… You will be able to contribute when you least expect it, so stay tuned and chime in. Mistakes are valuable to all of us when shared…you'll see. Lord knows I've made my share. We share, enable, inspire and josh each other. Enjoy as we do! 
DanK


----------



## daddywoofdawg

Is there any interest in a trade,this for a Miter saw,for a pistol grip sharp dovetail saw,and maybe a plane?



























More photos available.


----------



## chrisstef

Nova - while its probably not a terrible saw its almost impossible to make an 8 point saw both xcut and rip very well. Not even a saw made from unicorn tears and that new baby smell could do both actions efiiciently. The tooth geometry just wont support it.

(Paraphrasing St. Roy)
Think of the teeth on a xcut saw like knives. 
Think of the teeth on a rip saw like chisels. 
Think of wood fibers as a bundle of straws. 
To xcut the youve got to slice them. 
To rip youve got to chop them.

This isnt to say that you cant muscle your way through a rip but its gonna be tough and the results may show it here and there.

Also - show the hock butchering lol. Im sure it can be salvaged.


----------



## duckmilk

> Dan: RE your comment "This is an anonymous forum. Full disclosure is honored!" You really want to know how bad I screwed up don t you? It s a long story but basically I wrecked two Hock plane irons and more than one chisel on a Craftsman var. speed 6" electric grinder into which I dumped a ton of upgrades. Norton white wheels (80 and 120 grit), wheel balancing kit, two Veritas fully articulating tool rests, diamond wheel dresser AND a Veritas grinding jig. I built a stand that sat on my bench so that the wheels were at chest height (no bending over). The chisels were nothing special, HD plastic handled stuff. After I wrecked the 2nd Hock blade I sold the grinder for a lot less than I paid. I now grind, hone and polish with Silicon Carbide paper on a 9"x12"x2" (A grade) granite block. A side clamp honing guide keeps the tools aligned and my sanity intact.
> 
> I am probably guilty of a myriad of sins with other tools as well. As Rob s signature block says, I am… "Learning… one mistake at a time…" I wish I had come up with that.
> 
> Thanks again for the info guys!
> 
> Dave
> 
> - NoVaDave


Hehe, you'll fit right in


----------



## donwilwol

yep NoVaDave

we've all been thrown from a horse or two in this rodeo!


----------



## DLK

Rust-date 10-June-2015. Rust hunters log:

The commander decided that she would have a booth at the ewe-per fiber fair in Curtis, Michigan ever hopeful that she would dimisih her inventory. So we loaded up the truck and were off friday morning. Along the way we stopped at garage sales. The "drills"and bits are all from garage sales. Later in Curits, Mi. while she was at the fair I tried to visit Antique shops. The bench planes are all form the same antique shop. At the suggestion of this later dealer I drove offer to Blaney Park, Mi. where there are 3 antique dealers have several overpriced tools. On one side of the street was a Stanley 45 with one cutter for $120 on the other side of the street was also a Stanley 45 with again one cutter for $40. I found an antique store in the country with the most seriously abused rusted Diston saws missing nuts and and medallions for sale at $30 or more each, braces in even worse shape for $25, its was incredible.

Here is the haul:











Miller Falls No. 99 breast drill. $5
No Name brace $2
No Name brace $2
Brace Says: "Made in (Pex 10) USA" and has Number 5312
Five drill bits $1: Dunlop #10, Lakeside, Irwin 6, Russell Jennings, Pasiado?
R-5 Bench plane (Blade saws lakeside) Is the bench plane a Montgomery ward ? $15.
Stanley-Bailey No. 4, $15,
Stanley #5 "a project plane" should be a fun restore. $10.

To be continued….


----------



## Johnny7

Perhaps it's a trick of the photography, but none of your braces appears to be a 12" model

Nevertheless, that's what No #4 apparently is-a Pexto (as in Peck, Stowe & Wilcox) model 5312


----------



## bandit571

Ok, after a bit of research over at The Disstonian Institute site:

That Free D-23 I picked up is from pre-WWII, and was indeed a rip saw 26" long. 









This is after a clean up. Teeth points were 6ppi. And Disston did sell these as rip saws, too. 5ppi to 7ppi. 
Might give it a sharpening as a rip and see how it works? 









Might just be a decent saw…..for free?


----------



## upchuck

> R-5 Bench plane (Blade saws lakeside) Is the bench plane a Montgomery ward ? $15.
> 
> - Combo Prof


Combo Prof-
Yes the #R-5 is a product sold by Montgomery Wards. Rockford Tool Co. of Rockford, Illinois is closely associated with the Marsh Tool Co. and made planes for Montgomery Wards. Some of them had blades marked with their name some had blades marked with the Montgomery Wards *Lakeside* logo. Both logos are correct. More information about Marsh/Rockford is available in Ken Roberts Patented Metallic and Transitional Planes in North America. Stanley bought them out and they stopped production in the late 1920's or so. I have two Rockford planes and I think they are every bit as good as the pre-WWII Stanley planes.
chuck
P.S.And what does this have to do with saws?


----------



## DLK

Thanks for the info Chuck.

I Just saw posted it in the wrong forum, but couldn't delete it in time. I'm reposting it now over in rust hunting.


----------



## DLK

> Perhaps it s a trick of the photography, but none of your braces appears to be a 12" model
> 
> Nevertheless, that s what No #4 apparently is-a Pexto (as in Peck, Stowe & Wilcox) model 5312
> 
> - Johnny7


Yes the top one does have a 12" sweep, and is 5312.

I see that the Braces are out of order. I corrected that in the Rust forum. I just can't get my act together today.


----------



## bandit571

Sharpened the FREE D-23 awhile ago, gave the teeth a wipe down with a candle, and tried the saw out..









Still working on cleaning the plate, but for now









Cuts straight, cuts fast, but a little tricky to get started.

Since there are a few braces on here…









Might need a way to store these things…

BTW: while cleaning that saw plate, found a big,old "6" stamped on the heel. We now have a decent rip saw in the shop….









Maybe…


----------



## bandit571

Just came in the door a bit ago, Grandson had some Birthday presents for me today. Two months late, but I won't complain









26" skew back 10 ppi, seems to have an etch made up of a lot of banners. Atkins?









20" skew back 10ppi, No.118 Clearcut. Name in the etch seem to start with a G. W. 








As for the short one?









It wants to be a handsaw when it grows up…

Not sure about the first two as to whom made them. Would make it easier to find the correct medallion for the big skew back, though.


----------



## DLK

Has anyone tried using electrolysis on saws? If so will it affect the etch?


----------



## DanKrager

I'm learning that chemical and electrolysis rust removal seems to deepen the logo etch at the same rate it etches the surrounding metal, so no, it doesn't seem to affect the logos. This will not be true if the logo etch is treated with a coloring agent that resists the etching. Abrasive rust removal tends to level the metal and if the etch is faint, there is risk of obliterating it.

I didn't have to worry about it on my saws because the logo etch was long ago rusted away.
DanK


----------



## DLK

> This will not be true if the logo etch is treated with a coloring agent that resists the etching.
> - Dan Krager


What does this mean?

I once put two saws into evapo-rust. On one I could see a logo etch and on the other I could not. Upon taking them out the one with the logo etch I could previously see completely vanished, but the other revealed a etch that I could not see before the evapo-rust treatment.


----------



## DanKrager

Combo, what I was trying to say is that if the logo etch has a resist in it, then the slight etching of rust removal will level the surrounding metal with the bottom of the logo etch (we're talking very small physical dimensions) and wiping off the residue of the process will possibly make the logo etch virtually invisible, as you've noted, because the bottom of the logo etch is now level with the surrounding metal. If the logo etch is bare, then it will deepen slightly and better keep its relation to the formerly unetched surrounding metal. If the blade is so crusted in rust that no logo etch is visible, it will likely become visible as the rust is eaten away. 
I am by no means a chemist, just have removed a lot of rust from various tools, big and small, and have puzzled my way to crude explanations of what I observed. YMMV. 
DanK


----------



## ArlinEastman

OK guys

On another woodworking web site this guy ( Christian Castillo) came up with an outstanding way to clean up saw plates with not damage to the plate and get the etch to come out wonderfully. Over 40 guys tried it with OUTstanding results.

Here it is--

""Hi, a few months ago I saw a beautiful saw restored by Daryl Weir in a post here, he did mention he used no sandpaper or machines, with those two hints I set off to see if I could find a way to replicate his results. My saw plate polishing method is performed with the following steps, although step 1 may be omitted if the saw plate has light rust/tarnishing and the rust issue isn't severe as step 2 can actually cut through a lot of rust on its own. I just jumped straight to step 2 because my saw didn't have a lot of rusty build-up.

Disclaimer: Wear gloves, the *ball of foil *will chew up your skin.

1. Use a razor blade or something similar to scrape off as much rust as you can off the saw plate.

2. Use a high quality metal polish ( Autosol, Flitz etc. ) and dab it onto the saw plate, no need to waste a lot, you can literally just bang the tube of polish against the plate in key areas so that you will have enough polish to do the job. *Now get some Aluminum foil, crumple it up into a ball and begin scrubbing the plate until you literally clean the polish off the plate.* 
You will understand what I mean as you keep scrubbing, eventually the aluminum foil will clean up the plate and take all the polish off as if it is wiping it clean. If there are some areas that could use more polishing, just dab some more metal polish on and keep working until you are satisfied.

That is it, this method is incredibly clean since you do not have dirty mineral spirits or water and steel sloshing around and staining everything near it. The saw plate will literally clean itself and if you are careful, you many not even dirty your hands. The foil is too soft to abrade the saw plate, but is hard enough to scrub away the rust. The polish will then brighten and clean the plate making it very smooth and reflective, perfect qualities for a hand saw. I love this method because you do not introduce new abrasion marks into an old tool and I feel it achieves results faster, cleaner all while retaining the marks of age and history, I'm done going through a grit progression of sand paper, I'll save grit progression for sharpening.

Excuse the quality of the pictures, I took them about an hour and a half ago outside. It took me 20 minutes to finish the one side of this saw, I'm going to polish up the side with the etch tomorrow, it's late and dark but if you see how the plates shine in the day light, its really something.""

So When you do this let the rest of us see the results.

I have not tried it since I do not have any saws except the new dovetail LN saw someone gave me a few weeks ago. I still would like to find a nice cross cut and rip saw.


----------



## daddywoofdawg

Arlin Eastman,where are the pictures?


----------



## ArlinEastman

He must have deleted them on photobucket.

TobyC knows the guy.


----------



## dbray45

When I waxed cars as a kid I used this method to clean up chrome bumpers - long before the plastic crap


----------



## TobyC

He must have deleted the pix.

This is the thread.


----------



## warrenkicker

Found me a D100 today at a garage sale. Looks all original and pretty well taken care of. The upper horn has been chipped. Looks like 12tpi cross cut. It is small though. Blade length is 20". It fits my son's hand in a 4 finger grip pretty well. It only works for me as a 3 finger grip. The problem is that it is only 3.5" between the horns. My hand needs at least 4".


----------



## Waterlog

Is anyone from LJ going to Donnelly's Tool Auction in Avoca, NY next week 7/23, 24, 25? The tool flea starts Wednesday 7/22. I plane on having a table at the flea (my first time selling at a show). I have saws, vises, and planes mostly few other things. Wood be nice to meet some LJers. 
Lester

PS, Here is Saturday's pick.


----------



## chrisstef

I dig those d100's. A great find in the wild.

What are the makers on those backsaws waterlog?


----------



## bandit571

Two down…









and three more to clean up..









These three might take a wee bit longer to do….

Out of the five saws…four have nibs. Didn't know a No.7 came as a panel saw…..


----------



## Tim457

Those are some nice ones there Bandit.


----------



## Waterlog

> I dig those d100 s. A great find in the wild.
> 
> What are the makers on those backsaws waterlog?
> 
> - chrisstef


----------



## Waterlog

d100 s? 
The backsaw blades are 12" Disstons in good shape. The one with an etch has a number 4 under the logo.
In the previous photo of the pick is 2 Broadhead Garrett WW vises, a Dunlop small bench vise, Stanley spokeshaves are 51 & two 151s. An Ohio No.8 jointer plane and a Sargent 407 which is the same size as a Stanley No.2


----------



## bandit571

Hmmm…PUSH!


----------



## bandit571

Ok, I thought I posted something a moment ago….seems to have gone away


----------



## stan3443

Bandit the first two din't take you long looking good


----------



## bandit571

Cleaning the rest of the saws….D8 is done.

Tearing down the others…a mystery appears. Have the "normal" Disston & Sons medallion, and something of a smaller size. There is a "shield" with a capital "A" in it. Above the shield is a "SHEFFIELD Patented"

Below the shield is Warranted. About 13/16" in diameter. Handle was a three hole one, but…it was on a full sized plate?

Any clues??

BTW: Have a panel saw plate, but it has four holes drilled? Had a full sized handle on it, too.


----------



## kwigly

bandit,
the "A" in a sheild is an Atkins trademark
The Sheffield saw line was Atkins' cheapest saw line (no fancy finish, but still fairly good steel)
(see also Bob Summerfield's "saw medallion reference guide", in his blog http://lumberjocks.com/summerfi/blog/39861 )


----------



## bandit571

I think this just might do??









Straight back, with nib. 20" long, 7ppi. Just BLO on the handle. Didn't find any etch. Will need a file to go to work on them teeth









It is a small nib, but it is there. Plate is straight, too. All the rust is gone









Four saws are done…one to go…


----------



## SuppressiveFire

Hello everyone. I have a bunch of saws I've been collecting for a long time. I restored 3 of them using a sharpening stone and kerosene. I am not sure if that's a good way to restore handsaws. Anyways, can anyone give me any starting points on how to restore them? I also have some really old ones I am scared to touch. I have an old Sheffield that has hammer rivets and a j flint with split nut. Any suggestions would be greatful. If you want pictures I would be glad to post. Thanks.


----------



## SuppressiveFire

Accedently posted twice sorry lol


----------



## chrisstef

Pics … yes!


----------



## donwilwol

> Pics … yes!
> 
> - chrisstef


Yes Yes


----------



## SuppressiveFire

Sheffield
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y69/genesis2_7_2000/image.jpg1_6.jpg[/IMG][/URL[/URL]]
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y69/genesis2_7_2000/image.jpg1_7.jpg[/IMG][/URL[/URL]]
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y69/genesis2_7_2000/image.jpg1_7.jpg[/IMG][/URL[/URL]]
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y69/genesis2_7_2000/image.jpg1_7.jpg[/IMG][/URL[/URL]]


----------



## ToddJB

Here ya go. From your photobucket you want to use your "Direct" link over on the right. Then all you need to do is put an ! before and after the link.


















Also LJs largest width is 640pixels, which is why they are cut off on the sides.


----------



## SuppressiveFire

Thanks Todd.


----------



## SuppressiveFire

J.Flint


----------



## TobyC

Those rivets are not original to that Spear and Jackson.

.


----------



## TheFridge

Any recommendations on a good saw set aside from a Stanley 42x?


----------



## Wally331

I use a stanley 42W and it works fine for most anything and its about half the price or less than the 42x


----------



## TheFridge

Awesome. Thanks.


----------



## SuppressiveFire

3ppi idk the age though.


----------



## Tim457

With no ring between the Keystone and the lettering, it looks like it has a 1888-96 medallion on it:
http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/medv2.html
The thumbhole handle was started in around 1880:
http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/d8page.html

But by my count I see about 5-1/2 ppi, not 3.


----------



## TobyC

Nope, yours doesn't have the Glover patent date, but it does have the stars on either side of PHILADA so it's 1878-88.


----------



## TobyC

Look at the blade under the handle close to the tooth line, if there is a number there that is the original PPI of the saw.


----------



## Johnny7

*Fridge*

In addition to the 42W, consider the Millers Falls #214-a highly underrated tool.


----------



## SuppressiveFire

Hard to make out I thought it said 3 but it's probably a 5.


----------



## TobyC

That is hard to read, but 5 1/2 is WAY more common.


----------



## Tim457

> Nope, yours doesn t have the Glover patent date, but it does have the stars on either side of PHILADA so it s 1878-88.
> 
> - TobyC


I wasn't sure if there was a patent date under the grime maybe. The two distinct lines in the keyhole border made me think 1888-1896 but I see some of the 1878-88 have that too. So listen to Toby of course.


----------



## chrisstef

That J Flint saw gives me chub. Nice cache of saws there SF. I agree with Toby on the rivets. Drill em out and replace with some new split nuts.


----------



## SuppressiveFire

Well the reason I thought that maybe that saw was 3 1/2 ppi was because this saw says 4 1/2 ppi and the teeth on the 4 1/2 ppi are smaller then the thumb hole saw. Thanks chris on the j.flint comment. The j.flint and the spear and Jackson Sheffield was my greatgrandfathers and idk who put the rivets on but I was to keep them on because I have seen it like that for a long time.
Well I guess I have to add another picture of the 4 1/2 points because in the post it got cut off.


----------



## SuppressiveFire




----------



## chrisstef

Nice config with 4 1/2ppi there. Would make for a real nice rough cut ripper. Wood hog style. Strong stamp.

That lil spot you cleaned came out nice. You said somethin about using a stone in a previous post? Id like to hear more about that.


----------



## bandit571

Placed a few on Feebay today..









Medallion has a"A" in a shield. 20" long panel saw, Next.









Warran&Ted's Superior Skew back, 8ppi crosscut saw, being sold with another skew back









A D8, made BEFORE the Hyphens came out. 8ppi crosscut, with two missing teeth. Next..









The Twins. Disston No.7..8ppi crosscut. Pre1928. No missing teeth, either, They even have an extra one..









Both these and the panel saw have nibs. Just a few that I rehabbed.


----------



## duckmilk

If anyone is looking for replacement Disston saw nuts, I spied these, not split nuts though.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/h-disston-hand-saw-medallion-screw-nut-/291525955704?hash=item43e04d1078

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1917-1940-Vtg-Disston-D-7-Panel-Saw-Handle-PHILA-13-16-Medallion-Nuts-Bolts-/381344763045?hash=item58c9eb4ca5


----------



## SuppressiveFire

Chris I use kerosene and a round two grit sharpening stone to clean the saws. But I don't really care fore it because it can take the etching off. I am thinking about a vinegar bath for the saws. However I have one saw that kept its etch after using the kerosene and stone method. It's a disston 23 with an etching that says "Great American Special"


----------



## chrisstef

Try simple green and sandpaper if youre not satisfied with your current set up SF. I always sand the area of the etch with 320-400 grit first to see if there's anything under the rust. No etch, fall back to 180 or 220 and go hog wild. Im always on the look out for new and interesting ways to clean up saws though. With all the brain cells ive fried ill probably shy away from kerosene though


----------



## DanKrager

Uh, Stef? You don't drink the kerosene…at least the way it's supposed to be used it won't hurt your brain cells any. any. Hasn't Hasn't botheredd mee.
DanK


----------



## chrisstef

You obviously havent ever had a kerosene buzz before. 2-3 shots and nooo pain.


----------



## lateralus819

Anyone know if LN will sharpen a saw if I send it in?


----------



## terryR

Not sure about LN , but Mark at Bad Axe is a magician with triangular file.


----------



## donwilwol

speaking of a magician with triangular file, where's Bob been lately?


----------



## jmartel

He said in another thread that he was up in Alaska fighting fires. Appears to be back now though.


----------



## summerfi

> where s Bob been lately?
> 
> - Don W


I'm baaack! I've spent the last 6 weeks in Alaska doing my part time summer job of helping fight forest fires. I'm way behind on things and trying to catch up.


----------



## Tim457

> Anyone know if LN will sharpen a saw if I send it in?
> 
> - lateralus819


I thought I recalled something on their website about being able to send them back one of their saws and they would sharpen it for just a "nominal charge".


----------



## donwilwol

> where s Bob been lately?
> 
> - Don W
> 
> I m baaack! I ve spent the last 6 weeks in Alaska doing my part time summer job of helping fight forest fires. I m way behind on things and trying to catch up.
> 
> - summerfi


glad to have you back Bob.


----------



## putty

A new little saw found its way to my shop. It's a 10 incher, I cleaned it up enough to see that there is no etch, and on the spine there is a stamping of HINSDALE MFG CO. I could not find any info on Hinsdale other than they made some mechanic tools at one time. I would assume that it was made for Hinsdale by a saw maker. It is a nicely made saw and it will clean up nicely.

Has anyone ever heard of Hinsdale?


----------



## donwilwol

did you see this?

Hinsdale Mfg. Co. was another trademark used by the C.E. Jennings Company. Jennings made a wide variety of tools, as well as their well-known auger bits.
I have a back saw marked "Hinsdale Mfg. Co." It's well-made, and has a smaller handle than the Disston back saws I have. I actually like that handle better that I do the Disstons I have.
In my limited experience, tools made by C.E. Jennings are very good quality


----------



## putty

Thanks Don, I hadn't seen that. What I saw was a Hinsdale that was making tools for sears…I think it was a different Hinsdale.

You are right, the handle is smaller than on my Disstons and it is well made. It's in my pile of things to do when it cools down…104 outside and my shop is hot…Window AC has to run for hours just to make it bearable!


----------



## jmartel

Picked this up at Goodwill tonight for $6. It's a Disston plate, but I can't read the etch to see what number it is. The medallion is Atkins. Not sure which the handle is.



















Has a couple teeth broken off, so it definitely needs to be refiled. Still cuts nicely though in the sections that don't have missing teeth.


----------



## summerfi

Looks like a Disston D-8 with an Atkins medallion. The correct medallion would be an easy find on ebay if you wanted to go to the trouble.


----------



## jmartel

Thanks, Bob. I'm not terribly worried about it. If it bothers me then I'll find a new medallion.


----------



## SuppressiveFire

You guys are a bad influence! So I picked up a Stanley NO.8 type 5 for 22.50 based on chris quote about no.8 jointer plane. Then I picked up a Stanley NO.42 saw set for 2.50. Not complete though. Thanks guys.


----------



## bandit571

I happen to have this one on the Feebay right now….









Medallion is an "A" inside a shield…..there is a small nib on the end..


----------



## Tim457

> You guys are a bad influence! So I picked up a Stanley NO.8 type 5 for 22.50 based on chris quote about no.8 jointer plane. Then I picked up a Stanley NO.42 saw set for 2.50. Not complete though. Thanks guys.
> 
> - SuppressiveFire


Pictures or it didn't happen. Rules are rules.


----------



## daddywoofdawg

For those who have done this,I sold one of my miter hand/back saws,and have to ship it.How do you prep a long saw (26-30") for shipping how do you pack it? cover the teeth with…?,place thin ply around the blade to keep it from being bend? and what about box,Wrap/make a cardboard box,See if u line has any that size or…?


----------



## theoldfart

Good question for Summerfi, he ships a lot of saws.


----------



## summerfi

For handsaws I make my own boxes out of large pieces of cardboard. They are typically about 2" thick, 8" wide, and long enough to provide an inch or two of space on each end of the saw. I usually make a wooden blade guard to protect the teeth, and tie it on with a string. The guards are about 3/4" x 1" x 1" longer than the saw blade, and have a slot cut in them with the table saw. You can also make a blade guard out of a folded strip of cardboard and tape it on. I wrap the saws in bubble wrap, place them in the box and then fill any spaces with packing peanuts so there is no movement. Lastly I tape the box up really good on all sides. I've never had a complaint about a saw getting damaged this way, and I probably ship around 50 saws a year.

For backsaws, I sometimes use the above method, but often use USPS priority mail boxes. In either case I wrap them in bubble wrap and fill spaces with peanuts as above.


----------



## daddywoofdawg

ok thanks summerfi,That's what i'll do then.


----------



## upchuck

daddywolfdawg-
This a link for information about shipping saws. Hope it helps good luck.
http://www.badaxetoolworks.com/packing-a-saw-for-shipment.php
chuck


----------



## donwilwol

2 of these NOS #42s followed me home


----------



## SuppressiveFire

Stanley 42 saw set not complete. Maybe I can find parts?


----------



## houblon

Another mystery saw from the flea market, adorned with orange paint:





































The label looks like W.B Sears & Co from summerfi's reference page here:








without text and decoration around the border.
Screws have the Munger patent date.

Could this be a WB Sears secondary line?

Unfortunately the blade is not original. It seems to be another JH Noble.


----------



## houblon

I picked up this little gem at a flea market in Alsace/France while on vacation.


























On the handle it reads DRGM No 62508 (Deutsched Reichsgebrauchsmuster) which is a patent for the reinforcement for the handle

That would date the saw between 1896 and 1945. Unfortunately there is no stamp or etch anywhere. Any guess who made it?


----------



## chrisstef

Whats it missin SF? Anvil? Nice ocho there too.

Dang houbs. Those are 2 impressive scores. Backsaw makes me warm.


----------



## SuppressiveFire

Saw set is missing dial and anvi Chris.


----------



## upchuck

> Saw set is missing dial and anvi Chris.
> 
> - SuppressiveFire


Can any one post a photo or diagram of a #42X saw set with all of the parts labeled?
I also have one that is missing some unknown parts.


----------



## warrenkicker

Anyone collecting these? Saw this saw this weekend. Guy was asking $5. Not quite this good of condition but maybe worth something. The rhinestones are what threw me.










It is a musical saw. You play it with a bow. Apparently it is gold plated.


----------



## bandit571

One of the three Birthday Present saws:
22" plate, 10ppi, skew back. Counting Medallion( WS)has four bolts

Handle has wheat carving. Some of the carving on the grip…starts in the middle and goes both ways

Etch is readable. Has a "CLEARCUT" logo. Two lines of script. Signiture starts with a GH…...

There is a number above the script: No.118 (??)









A little fuzzy









Doesn't appear to have been cut down. 
Maybe a Bishop brand???


----------



## bandit571

The other large Birthday saw has a bunch of banners in it's logo…trying to bring out both etches…Black sharpie, then sand off. 









Not too sure who made this tote for the larger saw…


----------



## donwilwol

> Saw set is missing dial and anvi Chris.
> 
> - SuppressiveFire
> 
> Can any one post a photo or diagram of a #42X saw set with all of the parts labeled?
> I also have one that is missing some unknown parts.
> 
> - upchuck


They are not labeled, but this listing has some good close ups. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-NOS-Stanley-Pistol-Grip-Adjustable-Saw-Set-No-42-X-Tool-/201398227996


----------



## Johnny7

*upchuck*

Try this …


----------



## summerfi

Here's an 1850's Disston No. 9 saw that I restored on commission for a fellow in Atlanta. It's a nice little early saw.

*Before*









*After*




































This saw had some interesting markings under the handle. Unlike other premium Disstons that have the letter X under the handle, this saw has the word EXTRA spelled out. It also has the number 1 (meaning unknown) and three little triangles that I've seen on other old Disstons (meaning also unknown).


----------



## putty

Nice job Bob, I bet the triangles are to test the hardness of the steel


----------



## daddywoofdawg

Could the markings be the guy who sharpened them,and maybe the blank maker or some other job?


----------



## upchuck

Thank you Don W & Johnn7


----------



## TheFridge

Bob, one day I hope buy one of your saws one day. Can't say enough about your work.


----------



## theoldfart

^ Fridge, I have two saws by Bob. Both are great saws to use and they look like art works.









The upper saw is a S Biggins circa 1867 and all original
The lower saw is a Groves. I found the the tote and Bob fitted the plate and spine.

Theses are my go to saws and I'll never part with them.


----------



## terryR

^Beautiful!


----------



## putty

Nice pair Kevin, is one rip and the other xcut?


----------



## houblon

Bob, that No 9 is a beauty. Is that apple wood?
Great repair of the horns.


----------



## theoldfart

Putty, yup.


----------



## bandit571

Spent $5on three saws today, mainly for the hardware to fix up other saws…that was the plan..
Toes looked…Meh..









The pointy one? Been too abused, bent and resharpened, throw away stuff, but there was two items that I wanted..









Them two bolts. A WS medallion (I think..) and a regular bolt. Handle was junk, tossed it.

Next, was a chunky handle, no medallions (rats!) and a very "Modern" look to it..









This one has the hanger hole. plate is straight, teeth have plenty of set, and are even "normal" teeth, not the "Impluse hardened" stuff nowadays. Ah, but wait, instead of a silk-screened logo..









Them things are deeply etch. Yeah, yeah, a Corsair. Logo says it is an 8ppi. We'll see what it turns into.

Now, about the third saw? It is a skew back, looks like about 8ppi. handle?









No, it is not a D-23…There is even a readable etch, not quite as deep as the Corsair's

In a banner over the main logo: Special Saw..
Underneath the logo: Hand made, taper ground
Logo? In big block letters…CRAFTSMAN

There is a few lines in script to the left of all of this. Teeth seem to be still sharp. Might clean up ok. Looks like I will just keep looking for hardware….


----------



## Tugboater78

Was browsing antique stores today with the fiance and one store had a d-8 sized saw with an adkins medallion, tote was broken but plate was straight and clean. Didnt see any etching. I think it had a $15 dollar tag on it. Roughly a 5ppi, judging my my knuckle, xcut and had some extrem set.

I wish i coulda gotten a pic but i had left my phone in the car.

Wondering if maybe i should go back..

I didnt pick it up cause I dont nessessarily need it, but if someone else thinks they need/want…


----------



## DLK

Was starting to clean/restore a pretty well abused Bay State Saw, but I am stumped. One of slotted heads of a saw nut sheared off from its its screw. Leaving the screw securing the bolt to the tote. *How do I get it out?* I presumed tapping the broken off screw end would work. But it dosen't because the saw plate is in the way. My only idea is to cut a slot in it with a dremel and then turn it out, but I'm not sure what bit to use in such a small tight spot.


----------



## TheFridge

Get a bigger hammer… And some duct tape… And some wd-40…

If you can't fix it with those things it should probably be thrown away.


----------



## daddywoofdawg

Combo Prof,run a smaller than the screw, drill bit into the center of the screw,leave it in,and pt blaster the screw then grab the drill bit with some vise-grips a gently try and back the screw out.Again gently.if you break the bit off you dug the hole deeper.Or you can buy or borrow from your mechanic friend a screw remover.forget the name.


----------



## DLK

*daddywoofdawg*: Yes thank you that will work. I believe the tool is called a screw extractor, which basically a drill/screw with reverse threads. I can probably buy one from the hard ware store but I am not sure I can get one small enough. Sorry for the panic I should have remembered this trick.


----------



## DLK

> Get a bigger hammer… And some duct tape… And some wd-40…
> 
> If you can t fix it with those things it should probably be thrown away.
> 
> - TheFridge


you forgot… And some windex.


----------



## bandit571

Trying to find out which "George" made this saw








Logo says something about " CLEARCUT"


> "The Best Spring Steel Highly Tempered" reads one of three lines of script in the etch. There is a non-Disston signiture stamped underneath those lines. Above the lines is a No.118 (


)
Lots of carving going on









Lots









22" of crosscut teeth. Skew back, 10 ppi. Medallion is a Warranted Superior with Eagle
I can make out some of the name









"G" then either an "H" or a "W" last part looks like …..field?

Nice little saw, but who made it???


----------



## Tim457

Don, can you post a picture? I'm having trouble picturing where it broke that it's still holding it in. Screw extractors do come pretty small though so I'm thinking that's your best bet.


----------



## chrisstef

Bandito … http://wkfinetools.com/hUS-saws/BishopGeoH/tools/bIN_ghNo128-26inch6ppi-HS/bIN_ghNo128-26inch6ppi-HS-01.asp


----------



## donwilwol

Here is another one Bob (not mine)


----------



## chrisstef

Shurley Dietrich beaver medallion?


----------



## bandit571

Stef: not close. Not a Grayhound saw.


----------



## bandit571

^^
Stubborn little bugger…..still here?

Got the bigger of the three Birthday saws all cleaned up….A Bishop 6ppi skew back, from when Disston owned them…I think. Logo had a lot of "banners" to it.

Still needs one brass saw bolt. Handle will get a finish after a spot of glue goes in. crack goes right through the medallion hole…..bummer. Gave the plate a wipe down with 3in1 oil. MIGHT, just might sharpen them big teeth later…


----------



## duckmilk

I had to go back to 7/16 to see Arlin's post about using automotive metal polish and crumpled aluminum foil to clean saw plates. I gotta try that.

Stumbled on this post about enhancing an etch and thought it was worthy of sharing.

http://www.wkfinetools.com/tRestore/saw/etch-Sturgeon/etch-Sturgeon.asp


----------



## DLK

> Don, can you post a picture? I m having trouble picturing where it broke that it s still holding it in. Screw extractors do come pretty small though so I m thinking that s your best bet.
> 
> - Tim


Me too. If there is no head to the bolt then It should just pop out. The nut must be some how "glued" to the tote. Or "rusted" onto the saw plate. Ack , now I am back to not knowing what to do, with out ruining the tote. Gues I'll try soaking it with PB Blaster. Can brass and steel somehow fuse together?


----------



## duckmilk

> ^^
> Got the bigger of the three Birthday saws all cleaned up….A Bishop 6ppi skew back, from when Disston owned them…I think. Logo had a lot of "banners" to it.
> 
> Still needs one brass saw bolt. Handle will get a finish after a spot of glue goes in. crack goes right through the medallion hole…..bummer. Gave the plate a wipe down with 3in1 oil. MIGHT, just might sharpen them big teeth later…
> 
> - bandit571


Which was the Bishop saw?

DonK, may have to just carefully drill out the whole thing making sure you don't enlarge the hole in the plate? How many saw nuts are there? If it has enough bolting it together, one slightly enlarged hole may not make any difference. Pics?
Edit: I've never seen brass rust. May be glue though.


----------



## ToddJB

Duck, looks similar to blueing process a few of us have used. You should get some and do a control test between the two options and report back.


----------



## bandit571

This 26" long, 6ppi skew back. Four holes for bolts, has a Lambs Tongue.


----------



## DLK

Here is a picture of the bad saw bolt :










As you can see I sort of misrepresented the situation. Below and to the left you see a bolt and nut I successfully removed. Below and to the right you can see the end of *the nut* sheared off its tube. (mistakenly thought that the end of the bolt came off.) Hence the tube is screwed tightly to the the bolt and the saw plate is between the two.
I don't think a screw extractor will work. You can't turn the bolt because of the little side flanges. Instead I need to find a way to turn the tube. (or just drill out the bolt which I am trying to save.


----------



## bandit571

Small screwdriver, enough to "notch the tube" and hold onto the wood. Angle it a bit. When you then try to loosen the bolt parts, it will push against the blade of the screwdriver, and not allow the tube to turn.


----------



## DLK

> Small screwdriver, enough to "notch the tube" and hold onto the wood. Angle it a bit. When you then try to loosen the bolt parts, it will push against the blade of the screwdriver, and not allow the tube to turn.
> 
> - bandit571


But how do I turn the bolt. There is no slot and the edges are buried. Nothing to grip.

I think I want to turn the tube as the bolt is fixed in the wood of the tote with those little side flanges. I may give that a try with a jewelers screwdriver.


----------



## CFrye

Don, is the end of the bolt flush with the remainder of the nut, as far as you can tell?


----------



## DLK

> Don, is the end of the bolt flush with the remainder of the nut, as far as you can tell?
> 
> - CFrye


pretty close.


----------



## TheFridge

Drill baby drill


----------



## Brit

I think drilling is the only option left for you there Don.


----------



## Buckethead

If you drill a small hole in the center of the screw (from the screw side, not the head side), then sacrifice a small tapered square file by beating it into the hole, it just might work. A piece of less brittle steel would serve better.

A screw extractor could do it, but only if you found a left handed thread screw extractor. Since you'd want to attack from inside as well.


----------



## Tim457

If you want to not damage the wood on the other side by turning the bolt, then I have to agree drilling it out is your only option. Center punch, drill with small sizes first and work up until you've got the nut completely clear.
Is this a particularly valuable or nice saw that's it's worth the effort or are you just looking for the challenge?


----------



## bandit571

Re: Birthday Saw with the signiture etch?

George Worthington Co. Very early model….might even be a first model. Eagle has a LONG neck. No "Stars" around it, either.

A later model was on Feebay….$125???? Yeah, right…..

There is a model number on this one…No. 118

May need to research a bit more…..


----------



## duckmilk

Don, do you think you could drill out the remnants of the nut around the perimeter of the bolt? Another thought is to drill the nut in 2 places opposite each other creating a split nut of sorts. Then fabricate something resembling a split nut screwdriver to slip around the bolt, into the nut and twist the nut out.


----------



## DLK

> I think drilling is the only option left for you there Don.
> 
> - Brit


Well there are as I see it three options. (1) drilling, (2) giving it to one of you to enjoy the torture, (3) trashing it.


> If you want to not damage the wood on the other side by turning the bolt, then I have to agree drilling it out is your only option. Center punch, drill with small sizes first and work up until you ve got the nut completely clear.
> Is this a particularly valuable or nice saw that s it s worth the effort or are you just looking for the challenge?
> 
> - Tim


Not particularly valuable. Its a Bay State Saw, with a medallion not on Bob's list. I sent Bob a picture and asked if I should clean it up. He said to do so, but it would only then be for display. It has a nice etch and after a razor scrap it is not as bad as it once looked. I'm not sure what the plate looks like under the tote, it may be too rusted. Here is full photo taken just after I cleaned the medallion.. But yes it was for the challenge.










Here is the closeup of the medallion I sent to Bob.


----------



## DLK

> Don, do you think you could drill out the remnants of the nut around the perimeter of the bolt? Another thought is to drill the nut in 2 places opposite each other creating a split nut of sorts. Then fabricate something resembling a split nut screwdriver to slip around the bolt, into the nut and twist the nut out.
> 
> - duckmilk


Thats a possibility I have thought of for the split nut screwdriver I was going to use a metal tube. But instead this morning I made a leg vice . This afternoon I writing up a proof of a theorem I have discovered on "orthogonal directed cycles in Cayley graphs". Maybe this evening I can get back to the shop where I belong.


----------



## TobyC

Drill it out, brass is soft.


----------



## CFrye

Picked up a couple of saws yesterday.









The skew back with the home made mismatched tote has a Rich-Con etch








No. 100









Easier to see in person than to photograph.

I kept thinking I was reading Oklahoma City in part of the etch but knew that couldn't be right since the company was based in Kansas City! Research showed they did have a branch in Oklahoma. Cool!

The back saw has a stamp in the spine









and split nuts?








Anybody recognize the stamp on the backsaw? The 3 stars are repeated after the lettering.
Any further information would be appreciated.


----------



## chrisstef

I believe boker was a german company candy.


----------



## CFrye

R&H B*O*KER! I was reading the 'O' as a 'C' and trying to make the B into an E, because BCKER didn't make any sense! 
That will certainly help with the info search, thanks, Chris! Am I wishful thinking about those being split nuts?


----------



## Tim457

I could be wrong, but I think those are rivets, Candy.


----------



## chrisstef

Might be rivets but id guess that they are split nuts but with the slots abraded away over time. The bottom one looks like it may have been peened over all though. Either way id try and snap the rest of that handle off and extract the nuts. I cant imagine that the handle is original to the saw. A new handle and that will be a really cool saw.


----------



## SuppressiveFire

I picked up 21 hand saws Wednesday and Thursday. Hehe. Lot of disston. Paid $5 and $10 for each one. Couple broken but have nice handles and nuts.


----------



## bandit571

Used the Disston that I traded a junk plane for today..









Disston No.5??? Spline was never blued. Has two etches. Seems to do….OK.


----------



## TheFridge

I could use one of them things for tenons


----------



## SuppressiveFire

I'm trying to figure out what model disston crosscut saw this is. It's a little smaller then normal. I can only fit three fingers in the handle and it measures 20" long. I thought maybe D7 but I don't think so. But I could be wrong.


----------



## Johnny7

Is it skew-backed?

I ask because the only handle I know of with that bolt pattern and with only the grip carved is the 120 "Acme" no-set.

Yours is a panel saw, apparently (4 fasteners, rather than 5), whatever the model.


----------



## SuppressiveFire

I know Johnny it's confusing.i can't figure it out. Straight back.


----------



## TheFridge

Is 25$ a good price for a new/mint somax saw set?


----------



## Johnny7

> I know Johnny it s confusing.i can t figure it out.
> 
> - SuppressiveFire


Is that a "yes" or "no" to the question of skewed-back?

Moreover, it looks like you have not yet attempted to recover an etch (which would pretty much solve the riddle)

Use a single-edged razor blade at a low angle to shave the rust from the area of the etch.
To further clean, be sure to use some kind of backing on lubed wet or dry sandpaper.
I recommend starting with 220 (not coarser).


----------



## Johnny7

> Is 25$ a good price for a new/mint somax saw set?
> 
> - TheFridge


Tools for Working wood sells them brand new for 24.50 (either version)


----------



## SuppressiveFire




----------



## SuppressiveFire

Acme 120. Thanks for advise.


----------



## Johnny7

That is a valuable saw - especially in a panel saw configuration

Read about it here


----------



## donwilwol

What might this be? There is no medallion and I doubt there will be an etch


----------



## Wally331

Wheeler, Madden, and Clemson made a similar looking saw. http://www.tgiag.com/saw-handle-scans.html


----------



## TheFridge

Thanks Johnny


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

Scared of saws, scared of sharpnin, cause I'll take to buyin !! I'd like to find somebody local to do my sharpnin here in Ky.


----------



## CFrye

Got the handle off the Boker backsaw.










Maybe not the best way to do it…










Not sure if I did the damage or the previous, cough, repairer. Is there hope to straighten these? AND they be usable?Thanks in advance.


----------



## TobyC

See if they will unscrew, if the threads are shot you don't have to worry about them.


----------



## CFrye

Yes, they were reassembled for their picture. I guess the shaft of the bolt doesn't have to be straight as it won't be seen, right?


----------



## terryR

Good work, Candy. 
I have a few bent pieces of hardware inside vintage saws; shhhh.
I probably have extra split nuts if you want a couple. brass and copper.


----------



## Tim457

Candy I think I'd find a piece of 1/2" bar stock or other steel that would fit and tap gently with a tack hammer. You could drill the right diameter in a piece of scrap wood and cut it off halfway through the hole so the end would fit over the shaft. Then when you tap them there's less chance of crushing them.


----------



## CFrye

Thanks, Terry. We'll see if I need 'em.
Tim, I think I understand. I may have the pieces of the handle still (not like I hoard every scrap of wood or anything).


----------



## warrenkicker

Picked up what seems to be a 1917-1940 Disston No 4 12" tenon saw a couple of weeks ago. 13 ppi. Worked a while today to clean up the tote. Had cleaned up the plate a little while back and worked on sharpening last week in my new EC Stearns No 500 saw vise. Looks like I will have to try again by using a template. I was relatively consistent with the teeth size but not consistent enough nor straight enough for my taste.

At some point the tote got a coat of green paint that was then mostly removed. Someone also decided to stamp 7's all over it. I think I counted 27 of them. Some sanding with 120 and 220 and then some tung oil has it looking much better. One handle bolt was brass and the other was nickel-plated brass. Changed that one and it seems the alloy was a little different. The color after cleaning was slightly different.


----------



## ToddJB

Man, great job, she looks wonderful.



> Someone also decided to stamp 7 s all over it. I think I counted 27 of them.
> 
> - warrenkicker


Ha. I have some calipers that someone stamped L's all over them. Tons and tons of L's. Silly.


----------



## bearkatwood

Hey, could one of you show this newbe how to add a picture on this darn thread. Thanks.


----------



## chrisstef

Brian - click the "img" button just above the text box. Click Broswe. (This should open up "your computer"). Click on pictures. Select your picture. Click open. Then click insert this image.

Hell of a nice job warren.


----------



## bearkatwood

Thanks for the help chrisstef,
Just wanted to show a saw I put together. I have a few restores that I had fun with and wanted to start on my own.
I think I have some more pics here. http://bearkatwood.blogspot.com/


----------



## chrisstef

No problem Brian. I only charge a small fee. Ill send you my address so you can ship me that saw. That should cover it.

Whats the spine made out of? That saw is serious lookin!


----------



## johnstoneb

Candy do as Tim recommends keep the bolt on a piece of wood to protect the threads.


----------



## bearkatwood

> No problem Brian. I only charge a small fee. Ill send you my address so you can ship me that saw. That should cover it.
> 
> Whats the spine made out of? That saw is serious lookin!
> 
> - chrisstef


Glad you like it. I will get it right off to you. The spine is maple. I was waiting for my supplies to come from blackburn/badaxe/gramercy and TGIAG and I got impatient so I ripped an old garage sale saw apart and used the steel and nuts and built a new handle and spine. I saved the old spine and used it on a gent saw I was working on. Finally my goodies came and I started on a few saws, but I have a big restaurant furniture order so I had to pause production. It is a dovetail saw and I have a carcass saw as well. The look came from looking through some old saw pics and I liked the antique civil war amputating bone saws. I thought what a play with "carcass" so I worked up the look from that. The scalloping in the spine gives it a mean look too.
Brian


----------



## bearkatwood

> Candy do as Tim recommends keep the bolt on a piece of wood to protect the threads.
> 
> - johnstoneb


Have you seen Matt Ciancis' video on cleaning up a saw? It's a good one.


----------



## putty

That is a beauty Biran, hand carved?


----------



## bearkatwood

> That is a beauty Biran, hand carved?
> 
> - putty


My fingernails aren't that sharp.


----------



## putty

A little 8 incher.. ebay purchase before and after (Spear & Jackson)


----------



## CFrye

> Candy do as Tim recommends keep the bolt on a piece of wood to protect the threads.
> 
> - johnstoneb
> 
> Have you seen Matt Ciancis video on cleaning up a saw? It s a good one.
> 
> - bearkatwood


No. Got a link? 
Carcass saw> funny. What did you use to carve? 
Beautiful work there, Putty.


----------



## bearkatwood

Here is Matt's site; http://www.thesawwright.com/
On the saw I used some of my wife's carving tools and a dremel.


----------



## Tim457

That's pretty sweet, Brian. Impressive carving. Are you talking about his super tune your backsaw video?


----------



## bearkatwood

Yes, sorry. His super tune dealio. Cool show, now every time I sharpen a saw I repeat his mantra "let the peaks shine like beacons in the night." Very nice guy. I talked with him about my saws and he gave me a few leads on old time saws that used wood spines as well so I wasn't nuts to do it.


----------



## CFrye

Found it. Got any before pics of that carcass saw, Brian? I picked up a small hand saw today with 3 nuts, all different, 2 of 'em split. One of them might match the Boker…just in case.


----------



## CFrye

Fixer upper…

























Somebody REALLY wanted this tote to stay together! LOL
$3


----------



## bandit571

Looks like it might use that handle from Woodstick? Might be the same size.


----------



## donwilwol

Candy, you do bring home some challenges!!


----------



## CFrye

I'll have to check, Bandit. You may be right! 
They find me, Don. What can I say?


----------



## putty

Candy, I would not do anything to that saw!!


----------



## CFrye

> Candy, I would not do anything to that saw!!
> 
> - putty


As in, not even touch it, not do anything?!
;-D


----------



## putty

I would hang it on the wall, That was from a different era, people would try to repair things…that owner was not very good at it though. Today if something breaks it goes in the trash.


----------



## CFrye

True, Putty. 
No go, Bandit. The WoodStick tote was a 3 bolt tote. This one has 3 bolts and an empty medallion hole (well, except for the baling wire).


----------



## ToddJB

Putty, your saw came out great. Is that the original tote? Finish is awesome.


----------



## bearkatwood

Yes, beautiful saw. I like that is still has a bit of patina and character and you didn't sand away it's life. That other thing. Holy cow. I think I saw something like it at the Seattle Art Museum once.


----------



## chrisstef

Ive paid more for 2 replacement split nuts.


----------



## DLK

Wow, Candy and I thought I had some challenge saws. Can't believe you would pay $3 for it. The most I have ever paid for that saw type is $5. And for $5 it better be in pretty good (but not perfect) shape. However that would be a great saw to use as a loner…. for someone you did not what bowering your tools.


----------



## putty

Todd, yes it is the original handle, I stripped it, then wipe on poly


----------



## terryR

>


That tote just needs some Titebond and a month long soak in BLO!

Seriously, Candy, the hardware is worth $10. If you could clean the brass and re-sell on fleaBay…100 times per month…might beat the ER?


----------



## DLK

> 100 times per month…might beat the ER?
> 
> 
> - terryR


ER = Emergency Room ?


----------



## DanKrager

Yes, Combo. Candy haunts the ER for work.

DanK


----------



## dbray45

My dentist gave me this saw that had a "fixed" tote, which broke as soon as I used it on my deck. It had a a good coat of rust, missing 2 saw nuts. I was going to use it to practice my saw sharpening because it has a pretty good plate. So I cleaned it up and found this -

Tote it came with:









What I found on the plate









What it looks like with my new tote.









Cleaned up nice - think I will keep it


----------



## CFrye

Nice thumbie, David! What kind of hardware did you get?


----------



## john2005

^David, you did a fine job on that tote. Cherry? Looks great!



> - bearkatwood


Mighty fine work!

Candy, are you keeping the wire look? It is unique after all…


----------



## CFrye

Undecided, John. Procrastination mode has been enabled.


----------



## JayT

> Undecided, John. Procrastination mode has been enabled.
> 
> - CFrye


You sure you want to do that? I think I'd put off enabling that mode for a bit.


----------



## terryR

David, new thumbhole tote looks fantastic!
How did you cut the slot for the plate?


----------



## duckmilk

David, I can't make out all of the etch. Is it a D8? Nice job on the tote.

Candy, I think you could dress that tote up by replacing the tape with some nice white gauze tape and the wire with some stainless surgical wire. Whadda ya think?


----------



## bearkatwood

Hey John, Thanks. No, it's walnut. I took a look at your profile. That infill plane is amazing looking. I saw you were from Missoula. I am in Bandon, Oregon, but I come from Missoula.


----------



## dbray45

The plate is a pre-1928 D8.

I cut the slot with another hand saw. It was a royal pain in the backside and as a result, I didn't cut quite deep enough - should have been another 3/16" deeper.

Candy - I have a toother and a filer, plus I like to sharpen by hand - it's all good


----------



## warrenkicker

Picked up a "new" saw today for $3. They had what looked like a very nice thumbie D8 but it was gone by the time I could get there. Guess it is an Atkins No 64 from my research. Plate is straight but the teeth are a mess.


----------



## bearkatwood

I like the carving on it and the relief cut for your finger. That is a beauty! What is the tpi on it?

This is a D12 I picked up a few days ago. I don't know if a reno is possible. Out here on the coast everything rusts so much. 
Do you have any tricks on getting rid of it without compromising the saw plate? 









Here is a picture of one I was putting together. I was going for the whole Arabian Nights motif.









You guys have a great day. Keep the chips flying!
Brian


----------



## Tim457

> This is a D12 I picked up a few days ago. I don t know if a reno is possible. Out here on the coast everything rusts so much.
> Do you have any tricks on getting rid of it without compromising the saw plate?
> Brian


If you remove the handle you can use a chemical rust removal of your choice. It will get most or all of the rust. If there's pitting that will stay of course and the only way to get rid of those is to sand down below them.


----------



## Tim457

Here's an interesting saw I picked up. I didn't see much at Disstonian institute about back saws. The etch doesn't say anything about the model, is there a good place to find out about the Disston back saws?

















1896-1917 medallion.










Not the greatest picture of the etch but it's very readable when looking at the saw. The handle is almost perfect except a fairly recent looking chip out of the top horn.









Picked up the saw and the rest of this along with this King Seeley made Craftsman scroll saw. Motor runs sweet. Same maker as the jointer in the background.


----------



## bandit571

Yard sale find today.
$1 for anAtkins No. 50 coping saw.

Currently getting the red stuff brushed off….









Even the blade was sharp!


----------



## ToddJB

School did there own etching, or do you think Disston offered a special order option from the factory? Either way, cool.


----------



## CFrye

Disston back saws
http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/backsawpage.html


----------



## duckmilk

Tim, I checked the Disstonian Institute page on backsaws (http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/backsawpage.html) and see that the stamp on the back with Philada USA under the name is not specific to the date, just from early 1900's to 1940. If there is an etch on the plate, that may give more info. Have you tried here? http://www.backsaw.net/

Brian, that saw plate is pretty used up and part of the etch may have been filed away. Arlin Eastman posted about using automotive polish and wadded-up aluminum foil to remove rust since it won't abrade the etch.

Candy types faster than I


----------



## planepassion

Candy, I love that saw with the handle held together by bailing wire. It has a lot of patina so it's been on there for some time.


----------



## bearkatwood

> This is a D12 I picked up a few days ago. I don t know if a reno is possible. Out here on the coast everything rusts so much.
> Do you have any tricks on getting rid of it without compromising the saw plate?
> Brian
> 
> If you remove the handle you can use a chemical rust removal of your choice. It will get most or all of the rust. If there s pitting that will stay of course and the only way to get rid of those is to sand down below them.
> 
> - Tim


Any recommendations on rust remover?


----------



## chrisstef

Brian - scrape the heavy stuff with a razor blade. You can go evaporust, clr, citric acid, naval jelly. I cant say ive got a favorite. Theyre all just all right to me. All have drawbacks one way or another. You can also just sand. 220 or 320 start. Simple green, wd40, mineral spirits. Whatever you like for lube.

The autosol and foil wont do that heavy rust in my experience. I save that move for my last step before waxing a plate. From what ive seen its good on the blackish tarnish not red/brown, caked on rust.

There arent too many styles of backsaws. No 4 is what youve got and i think disston offered custom etching to school and such. Those saws are pretty cool in my opinion. The shape never really changed over the years but theres a could different spine stamps they used. Where's mckinsley high school?


----------



## Tim457

^^^^ What Stef said, Brian. The only reason I mentioned chemical methods was your phrasing "without compromising the saw plate" which made me think you wanted to avoid sanding. I end up sanding saw plates anyway to reduce pitting, and I rarely bother with chemical rust if I'm going to sand the metal down later anyway. I just try to go as light as possible when sanding over the etch and use a sanding block so it avoids digging out the bottom of the etching as much as possible.

Thanks for that page guys, I somehow have missed it before. And because of that I didn't realize the only difference in the models is the back material and finish. Thanks Stef, makes sense now that a No 4 can come in any available size like the full size saw models. That's Chicago before Board of Ed. Seems to be this McKinley: http://www.illinoishsglorydays.com/id730.html

And that pins the date down from between 1904-1917. Duck, it's the medallion that pins down 1896-1917. http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/medv2.html Can't see it in the picture above, but it does say Philada and fit that medallion. Saw handle is also the pre-1918 shape. Few other date clues because of the custom etch.


----------



## warrenkicker

My new saw is 9 tpi or 10 ppi. Also seems the tote is embossed and not carved. The plate is heavy in the hand though.


----------



## duckmilk

Tim, the Disstonian Inst. also says the handle changed in 1918 making the v joint less pronounced. Not which yours fits into.

Disston backsaw handles changed shape about 1918. That's when the so-called v-joint in the handle (the area of the hand hole just below mid-point, in front of the user's fingers) changed from a deep notch to a more subtle dip in the road. This was a style change, but it certainly did not have any impact on function.

Where's Toby when you need him?


----------



## bearkatwood

I have some fun links for you to check out.
The evolution of the backsaw;
http://www.backsaw.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=47:evolution-of-the-backsaw&catid=37:historyofthesaw&Itemid=74

Historical manufacturers
http://toolemera.com/Manufacturers%20%26%20Merchants/mfg.html


----------



## bandit571

Mine in use…









Never had the spline blued lije a #4, not brass like a #5 seems to be a #7?

Has the Disston etch on both the spline and the plate…..nice dovetail saw…

Any info on a Atkins No. 50 coping saw? I did find a Popular Mechanics ad from 1930…...That is about all I know about it…


----------



## warrenkicker

Worked some more on the damaged thumbie tote I have from a D8. Took some patches from another D-8 tote that was beyond repair. Didn't line up the grain very well on the bottom lamb's tongue but that was the best I could do with the material I had. The wood took the oil a little different so the repair is pretty obvious. Using rasps, files and sandpaper made it pretty easy. Hadn't thought about trying this before but I may try to reshape one of my worse looking beech totes now.


----------



## terryR

Tote looks great, warren!


----------



## dbray45

Nice job on that tote.


----------



## woodbench

Anybody seen Bob?


----------



## theoldfart

He's out fighting fires.


----------



## TheFridge

He must be pretty good cuz every where he goes the fire soon goes out 

Probably out of fear.


----------



## summerfi

> Anybody seen Bob?
> 
> - woodbench





> He s out fighting fires.
> 
> - theoldfart


Just checking in quickly. Haven't been to the site for awhile. I've only been home 8 days since June 16. The rest of the time has been on fires in AK, CA, ID, WA. Heading to OR in the morning. This has been quite a fire year, and not over yet. Maybe this winter I can catch up on saws and woodworking projects. Carry on men.


----------



## donwilwol

Safe Travels Bob.


----------



## woodbench

is this what I think it is?


----------



## theoldfart

I think it's a saw? Got them toothy thingamajigs on one side and a handle. Yup it's a saw!

Eyes too old to read the etch


----------



## bearkatwood

I don't miss the fires in Missoula, I lived there for 20 years. Those firefighters are true heroes with a very hard job. Now I am on the rainy coast. The etch on the saw resembles one I have on an old diston.


----------



## warrenkicker

Does it say D115?


----------



## woodbench

Yes Warren, with an older Victory "Eagle over Bell" beside it and a carved tote


----------



## chrisstef

D115 victory saw …. drooollll. Nice score!


----------



## racerglen

Hey Bob, your crews having problems with dip******************** public ? We've had some nasty fires here and a lotta smoke drifting in from Wash, sometimes keeping the air attacks grounded but people haven't helped. They were grounded for fire hours one day thanks to drones in the flight paths, then boaters wanting an up close view parking right where the fixed wing scoopers and chopper bucket brigade need to make pickups.

We've had luck the last few days, rain and a lot of it, enough they've actually lifted the campfire ban in time for the long weekend.


----------



## woodbench

Im trying to load pictures here that are over 5 mb, anybody know how to do this?


----------



## Mosquito

Yes, by making them smaller lol

If you're on a windows computer, you can open them in paint, and go to resize them down a bit (LJ will resize down them when you upload anyway)


----------



## donwilwol

> Yes, by making them smaller lol
> 
> If you re on a windows computer, you can open them in paint, and go to resize them down a bit (LJ will resize down them when you upload anyway)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Mosquito


I do the same as Mos on a PC and I have an app on my andriod devices simply called "Reduce Photo" i use a lot.


----------



## woodbench

Couple more shots of my D115, still cant believe I found this!


----------



## woodbench

I think I'll leave the flea market tag on it and only a light cleaning since it will not be used.


----------



## dbray45

Funny you say that, my best saws to use are the old ones. They sharpen nice and stay that way.


----------



## donwilwol

Anybody know the appropriate value of this saw?


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

^ Very nice, Don. And congrats on the 155, Lloyd!


----------



## DonBroussard

I picked up a miter saw from ToddJB in the last week or so, and I had a chance to clean it up a bit yesterday. I was too excited to take before pics. Maybe Todd could put up the "befores" for me.

Anyway, here are a few "afters".



















The saw has a very clear etch. Next up is a good sharpening. I got this saw to put in my Stanley 246 box (which I still need to clean up before its return to service).

Todd-Thanks for the fair deal, and for the prompt and safe packing up. Everything arrived safely.


----------



## Mosquito

Nice Don. That looks similar (etch and tote) to the saw in the 358 I just picked up earlier this week.


----------



## Johnny7

*Don W*

On a good day, that saw could fetch as much as 60-75 dollars

The saw market is way down from a year or so ago.

The price medallion is more desirable than the standard Simonds medallion, but I believe this model would have had blue enamel in the blue ribbon part of the etch.


----------



## ToddJB

> I was too excited to take before pics. Maybe Todd could put up the "befores" for me.
> 
> Anyway, here are a few "afters".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Don Broussard


Great job, Don. Happy it found a good home.

Here's a before picture.


----------



## warrenkicker

Are you asking us to believe that is the same saw? Nice job.


----------



## CFrye

Great job, Don!


----------



## donwilwol

Its $21, is it worth saving?
Hangers ar epoxied on, so they should come off.


----------



## ToddJB

I'm not familiar with Welco, but that's the clearest etch I've ever seen


----------



## Brit

Good one Todd.

Don - I wouldn't bother personally.


----------



## DanKrager

Got to be a British saw…it's "etched" on the "wrong side"... 

DanK


----------



## planepassion

Whoa, whoa there Dan! Let's not get all personal on the Brits…It's ok if they want to put the etch on the wrong side


----------



## theoldfart

Oh, I though you guys said the itch was on the wrong side ;-)


----------



## donwilwol

I let it be. I wasn't sure how i could get the etch to the right side! Saw this cool saw vise as well. I thought it was worth a picture.


----------



## theoldfart

That's a cool vise. Looks like they scavenged a few wooden hand screw clamps.


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

Anyone familiar with this saw maker ? $5 flea market find


----------



## chrisstef

Whats its say on the spine wk? Can we get a closer shot? For $5 you did damn well no matter who the maker may be.


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

Chris, it's saws Thomas Turner, German steel. The blade looks like it's been blued.


----------



## chrisstef

Turtle - http://www.backsaw.net/forum/index.php?threads/thomas-turner-and-co-german-steel.87/

The stamp yours shows is different than in the post. Id throw out a WAG of around 1900 for a date.


----------



## CFrye

Is this true?
" the notation "German Steel" signifies, at least second quality steel if not third."
The link he referred to wouldn't work for me.


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

I have a hard time accepting that fact, I don't think you could put all German steel in the same basket in regards to Quality.


----------



## chrisstef

I agree ^. That article wasnt intended to highlight supposed 2nd class steel turtle. I just linked to the first prudent article i found.


----------



## warrenkicker

Cleaned up my Atkins No 64 this weekend. There is still some cracks but until I do some work on the teeth it won't be getting used. 220, 400 and 800 on the plate and 220 with oil and wax on the tote. No etch on the plate.


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

Nice "Double .Medallion),, I made my first rookie mistake on a Simmons Moon & Star etch yesterday. It had quite a bit of rust but I could still make out the etch so I started out with 220 wet or dry and some simple green,,next thing I knew it disappeared ! Should of started out about 800 grit. Those Simmons etch must not be very deep. Learn as you go I guess !? I tried to do a engine turn finish on my old Keen Kutter but I've got to work on the process to make it more uniform.


----------



## CFrye

"engine turn finish"' TC? Sorry about the etch :-(


----------



## Tim457

Sorry about the etch. I think I've heard Atkins etches were extremely shallow too. Engine turned finish is a new one to me, but now that I googled it, I do recognize it.


----------



## warrenkicker

Here is a D8 I redid. The tote horns were replaced and the plate cleaned up. The etch was pretty good so I didn't blue it.


----------



## ToddJB

Oh, NOS 42x with paperwork for $10? Don't mind if I do.


----------



## warrenkicker

Some more interesting finds today. $1 each so I figure if nothing else I have some good bolts. It rained today so at the sale these were just setting outside rusting up.

The top one is a 1940-1947 D-8. Probably a lightweight. The etch looked pretty good but there is some rust on the teeth. Stamped 8 in a cross-cut.

The bottom one is an 1896-1917 No 12 with a nib. That is a first for me. The upper horn is broken off but the plate is in pretty good condition. It is a rip saw and the tpi is around 8. I'll have to replace the horn.


----------



## Johnny7

^ The long, slender upper horn on the No 12 makes it particularly susceptible.

I currently have at least (5) No 12s in nice shape save for the often-missing upper horn.
Here's one …










and another









and yet another









One of my intact specimens showing just how long and sweeping the upper horn is


----------



## daddywoofdawg

I thought pre WW2 Disston's had the wheat above the medallion.


----------



## warrenkicker

You may be mixing up the information between the No 12 and the D-12.


----------



## duckmilk

Johnny, I thought my 12 was just chipped on the upper horn, but from your last picture, it looks like it is missing more. Edit, $3.00 for that one?










Nice clean-up Warren.

Score for Todd.


----------



## Johnny7

> Edit, $3.00 for that one?
> - duckmilk


I got that saw about eight or nine years ago. Up till that day I had never found a No 12 in the wild.
That day I found two; one was marked $8.00 (I paid 5.00) the other was at another stop a few blocks away.
For the second one (pictured) I paid the $3.00 marked on the sticker.


----------



## MNclone

I haven't done much for cleaning up old saws because I don't find it to be nearly as enjoyable as cleaning other old tools. That said, I came across this on craigslist and decided to give it a go because I could use a nice dovetail saw. Once I got my hands on it, I got them impression that this is older and more rare than I originally had thought. The brass back is labeled Kaye and Sons Hull. Not much info on Kaye out there except for a few hundred pages back in this thread and a website by a descendant. http://tskayeandsons.weebly.com/
In general the saw is in good shape, but the tote seems to be a bit cracked and dried out. 
I'm not real sure what to do with this. 
My first thought is to use electrolysis on the plate and back, soak the tote in BLO, and fill the cracks with CA or epoxy. I really like the feel of the saw and think it could be a great user, but if it is worth something, I don't want to deface it. 
I'm open to suggestions….


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Not as awesome as the recent posts here, but a $1 find today: 16" blade, looks like a WS medallion.


----------



## theoldfart

Nice panel saw Smitty. I like the grip shape.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Haven't seen the shape on a short saw, that's for sure.


----------



## Johnny7

Smitty-a very desirable sized saw
Let us know if you find an etch.


----------



## chrisstef

MN - the saw looks great to me but ive got nothin on its heritage. Open handled brass backs kinda make me drool a lil.

Thread on it here http://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/refurbishing-a-handsaw-t33762.html


----------



## Mosquito

That looks like a mighty fine panel saw Smitty. I picked up two slightly larger (18" and 20") panel saws at our last MW-TCA meet. Those are my favorite sizes for some reason. I use the 18" I made all the time.


----------



## ToddJB

Smitty, I grabbed an Atkins 16" for a buck to other day too.










Had to hammer out a kink and epoxy a break, but she's cleaning up nice.


----------



## TheFridge

Read a good article at wkfinetools about straightening out kinks with a couple hammers and retensioning the plates. Hope to give it a shot and see how it works as I can't find a saw in the wild without any kinks.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Looks pretty fine to me, Todd! They're almost irresistible at that size, right??


----------



## CFrye

Lots of info there, Fridge. Have any of you used a random orbital sander to clean up a saw plate, or oven cleaner for the tote? Read that at wkfinetools here.


----------



## racerglen

That's a great link Candy, I've tried oven cleaner on metal, didn't go as "deep" as Evaporust, but made a good start.
I'll have to try it on a tote now ;-)


----------



## terryR

OK! I'll admit to trying a power sander on a saw plate…hangs head in shame.

ONCE. it left circular marks against the grain of the steel that took days to remove. uuuggh! Had better luck with a 1/2 sheet sander, but take care not to scratch against the grain of the steel. In the end, I've just had better luck with hand held sandpaper and WD-40.

Hmmm…I haven't restored a saw in a LONG time! I suppose planes are easier. LOL!


----------



## ToddJB

Got this little dinker cleaned up.



















Replaced an old nasty screw hole repair attempt with a brass pin










One oddity, I've seen brass plated metal screw, but not metal plated brass screws. When I started to clean this up I found that there was a thin layer of silver coating that was wearing off the medallion side, and they were brass underneath










But the back side was steel.










Here it's current home as it's too small for the current set up of the main saw till.


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

Nice fix on the screw hole Todd !!


----------



## summerfi

For a period of time Atkins used nickel plating over brass screws. Not sure about other makers.


----------



## Johnny7

This was also the case for the top-of-the-line Disston, the D115.
That saw also featured a rosewood handle.

here's a photo of my D115 panel saw


----------



## DLK

Hey Bob, Welcome back. How are doing? Are you sone with firefighting for the season?


----------



## summerfi

Thanks Don. I'm tired; will take a few days rest to get back on my feet. I'm hoping this is it for the year. There could be more late fires in CA though.


----------



## theoldfart

Good to have you back Bob. Kick back and recuperate, maybe even an umbrella drink or two! Thanks for doing this, I get a bit hyper whenever I hear about a fire in Northern CA since my daughter lives just above a canyon.


----------



## putty

Welcome back Bob, What projects do you have in store?


----------



## summerfi

Thanks putty. No. 1 priority is to rest and get over a cold. Then finish up my new saw till, restore some saws that have been piling up for awhile, and eventually get back to working on my sets of new saws. I still have a summer's worth of home maintenance projects to catch up on before winter, and a son to marry off in October. There's no rest for the weary.


----------



## bandit571

New, to me anyway, Tenon saw









Steel bolts, blued spline, no carving









Has a "Sandvik" flavour to it? I do know this does a nice job as a rip saw









Made four full depth rip cuts in some white oak scrap, then used the same saw to do a bit of crosscut…









Haven't found an etch, no biggie. Just might work….


----------



## bandit571

Well, got tired of that boxy, chunky handle fairly quick….so…









Gave it a weight loss diet…..even fits my hand better…..still needs a bit more sanding…


----------



## Kendrick77

Great work Don. I have to keep you in mind for future references. Great posts all over this page. Most of these saws I have never seen before until now.


----------



## jmartel

This is cool. A wooden version of the Knew Concepts saw.

http://www.benchtopwoodworkingtools.com/shop-built-quick-release-wooden-coping-saw/


----------



## CFrye

I like it, Bandit! Makes me think of Batman(the original campy version, not the modern dark crud)!
That IS cool, jmartel!


----------



## terryR

Cool looking saw, JWood! Looks like a fun build.

Gotta say that KC fret saw is friggin' awesome and worth every penny (IF you really use it!) It's so light and responsive, excellent pinless capture system. Not since switching from a sharp pencil to a knife has one tool improved accuracy in my DT's.










The pinless system allows you to use real scrollsaw blades, which further improves function.

At 4.8 oz, the AL version even weighs less than the wooden version!

(wish that were a paid endorsement)


----------



## bandit571

I just did a tooth count on that backsaw….9ppi? Has a bit of set, too. Appears to have been filed rip, too.

So..now I have a pre-1928 Disston & Sons No.7 as a dovetail saw, and this 14", 9ppi as a tenon saw.

Also have an older Atkins No. 50 , and a Disston/HK Porter No. 10 for coping saws.

Might just be about set as far as the smaller saws???


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Good to hear Terry. Makes it fun!


----------



## warrenkicker

Cleaned up the two $1 saws I picked up a couple of weeks ago. They are a No 12 and a D-8. The D-8 is straight and the 12 has a small curve to it.


----------



## CampD

Haven't joined-in in awhile but thought I'd share my latest auction score.
These where listed a "group of nice old hand tools" 









Here's the score I was after,


















Don't know much about Marples back saws but it's a 12" 13tpi
$15 for the lot, with commission.


----------



## bearkatwood

Very nice score, I like that the gent saw has an octagon body for registration. What make is that fillister plane? What is that pointy deal with the rosewood looking handle? Good find.


----------



## CampD

The gent saw is a Bishop with a Marples handle, 15 tpi - needs sharpening. Early stanley 78, need to investigate. No clue on the - pointy thing - some kind of iron, it is by Goodel & pratt co.


----------



## bearkatwood

Is it sharpened like a chisel, stippled like a rasp or smooth like a burnisher?


----------



## DLK

Bearing scraper.


----------



## bearkatwood

I had to do a little research into that, but it looks like they were used in woodworking. Nice find again. Makes me want to go find an auction.


----------



## CampD

Here's a couple pic's of the pointy thing.
Still not sure what it is but its a well made tool.


----------



## CampD

It is a bearing scraper, never heard of that before.


----------



## Brit

As Combo Prof said Doug, it is a bearing scraper. To be more precise, it is a Millers Falls Bearing Scraper Tool No. 381.


----------



## Brit

I see you said the scraper was made by Goodell Pratt. Same difference really. I doubt they or Millers Falls actually made them. They probably both just sold them with their names on. Check out this link:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Millers-Falls-Bearing-Scraper-Tool-No-381-4-1-2-/161835524549


----------



## DLK

I only knew it was bearing scrapers (or babbet scrapers) , because I went round and round this with tools I found earlier this year. I still have no idea why there were in the carpenter's tool chest I bought. Maybe he had to have them to keep his Model-T running. But maybe they can be sort of be used like a rasp.


----------



## Brit

I don't know for sure, but it wouldn't surprise me if woodworkers picked these up to burnish the edges of their card scrapers.


----------



## CampD

I too thought it was used as a burnisher and by the lack of any dirt/grease and the way the markings/wear marks are on it, I would say he used it as a burnisher.

It's stamped " Goodell & Pratt Greenfield, MA. Greenfield is about a half hour from me and just up the river is Millers Falls and a little farther up is Shelburn falls. All very fine tool making factory towns back in the day, all pretty much dead now.


----------



## theoldfart

Doug, when your in Greenfield check out the Museum of Our Industrial Heritage. They have a lot of info and displays on all the Valley manufacturers.


----------



## JayT

Went to an auction today that had a few saws.










Came home with five Disstons










From the left, a No 7, a D-8 Lightweight, unsure of model, a D-12 and I believe the one on the right is also a 12

Can anyone help identify the model of the one in the middle? I think it's a D-8 non-thumbhole by the bolt arrangement, but am not sure.










And this is the one on the right above. Pretty sure it's a No 12, but confirmation from someone more knowledgeable would be appreciated


----------



## chrisstef

Id say its a d-8 jayt. And a 12 on the bottom. Great cache of saws. That could round out a full set for soneone depending on configuration.


----------



## JayT

Yeah, I need to go through the till and purge. I will likely keep the better No 12 and the two D-8's. The No 7 and the older No 12 may need to go to new homes, along with a few other saws from the till.


----------



## Brit

Definitely a D8 JayT. It looks to be in pretty good condition too with a nice apple tote.


----------



## bandit571

Hmmm….all I found was a single crosscut saw…









May have spent too much for [email protected] $2









Didn't have to research it, everything was readable in the etch…

Disston & Sons D-23 Lightweight. 8ppi seems to be filed crosscut. Nickle plated bolts on the "show" side, brass on the slotted side. Cover-top handle. Nothing missing, no cracks or breaks. Has all of it's teeth, too

Ya think I paid too much? It was only two bucks….


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

Jay T, That reminds me of a good Striper Bass catch on a Full Summer Moon. Their ought to be a limit set on how many saws a guy can catch in a day. Somebody call the Saw Police !


----------



## johnstoneb

bandit.
I may have overpaid. I just picked up a D-23 10 ppi today. Gave $3 for it. Missing one of the nickel plated bolts. Will probably get it sharpened as a rip when I get it cleaned up.


----------



## terryR

Nice score, JayT!
Every man needs a sharp No.12!


----------



## Slyy

Had a friend dropping of "a couple of saws" and a "drill" is all he told me. Interested to see what's up when I get home here in an hour or so from work. Will update then.

Nice score on the saws too JayT. A no 12 is what I first cut my teeth on for saw revitalization. Terry has a good point: everyone needs a good sharp one!


----------



## TobyC

> - JayT


You can see where a wrench sat for a while, cool!


----------



## TobyC

Yes, No. 12, if there's no nib, it's a ship saw.


----------



## JayT

There's a nib on that one, but not on the other No 12.


----------



## TobyC




----------



## TobyC

> Definitely a D8 JayT. It looks to be in pretty good condition too with a nice apple *tote*.
> 
> - Brit


Disston sold their saws with *handles*.


----------



## DLK

So how much do you guys pay for air dried apple. I just paid about $2.5 per bf for some 4 month dried stuff.
Is that too much?

Wasn't clear grade, but was 6/4 and I think enough spaces for saw totes, etc.


----------



## theoldfart

Watcha' tryin' ta say Toby?


----------



## chrisstef

Buy more combo. All you can get your hands on. Seriously. Only chunk ive seen was like 20-30 a bf.

What kind of apple tree makes good lumber. Red delish, macoun, granny smith? Does it matter? I ask because i live close to a large orchard and maybe i can get friendly enough with some folk.


----------



## TobyC

> Watcha tryin ta say Toby?
> 
> - theoldfart


Nuthin'.


----------



## bandit571

TobyC played Red in Black Sheep Squadron????

Polished the bolts on that $2 D-23 from the rust hunts…..solid steel, no brass. handle is a cover-top. It does have a couple letters scratched into the right hand side on the handle…

Managed to get most of the etch to show up. I can read the entire etch, but it just doesn't show up for the camera I have. It cut the 5/4×6 pine plank I use as a test track like butter. I guess I won't have to sharpen this one, anyway….

All steel bolts on a Disston&Sons D-23. Wonder when it was made…...


----------



## TobyC

> TobyC played Red in Black Sheep Squadron????
> 
> *Yes.*
> 
> All steel bolts on a Disston&Sons D-23. Wonder when it was made…...
> 
> *Let's see the medallion.*
> 
> - bandit571


----------



## DLK

> Buy more combo. All you can get your hands on. Seriously. Only chunk ive seen was like 20-30 a bf.
> 
> What kind of apple tree makes good lumber. Red delish, macoun, granny smith? Does it matter? I ask because i live close to a large orchard and maybe i can get friendly enough with some folk.
> 
> - chrisstef


I may do so.


----------



## TobyC

That's Sgt. Micklin, college boy!


----------



## summerfi

+1 what Stef said. At that price buy more apple. Think of it as an investment, much better than gold.


----------



## bandit571

D-23 ..for the gyrene…









That green thing is the $2 price tag..









" I was a gentleman, once, but only by an Act of Congress".....


----------



## TobyC

Looks like 1940-1947, but I can't see it very well.


----------



## theoldfart

Stef, do go ask the orchard. That's how I picked up my apple wood, been drying for about a year now.


----------



## TobyC

Red West really did serve in the US Marine Corps from 1956 to late 1958.


----------



## bandit571

I served from May 71 to may of 2013…..retired…

BTW: I do have an apple tree out in the back yard…...full of smallish, wormy red apples. Everytime I mow lately, I am making applesauce with the mower….yuck. At least that over-weight groundhog out there likes them…


----------



## DLK

> +1 what Stef said. At that price buy more apple. Think of it as an investment, much better than gold.
> 
> - summerfi


I'm surprised. Apple trees are everywhere here. So I thought they would be cheaper. I'll post some pictures of the two boards I got tomorrow and you can re-tell me to get more. . This weekend I figure out what I have room to store.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

It's good to have some applewood standing by…










And, it's not as bad as that auction, JayT, but give me time…


----------



## richardwootton

Start looking for logs and split and rive that apple goodness! Stick, stack, and dry that goodness and you have wooden gold! There's gold up in dem orchards!


----------



## Brit

> So how much do you guys pay for air dried apple. I just paid about $2.5 per bf for some 4 month dried stuff.
> Is that too much?
> 
> - Combo Prof


*Don* - You were robbed. I can pick up dried apple for £0.60p over here. Not sure if you could make a TOTE out of it though. Maybe if you chewed it and mashed it together with some epoxy.










Then again, maybe yours was the better deal. Looking forward to seeing the HANDLE you make.


----------



## GMatheson

All the apple i come across gets split and fed to my smoker. She is a hungry beast. But in my defense the trunk is usually half rotten on the trees I get


----------



## terryR

I think the reason Apple wood is so expensive is the trees are cultivated with great care to grow apples. Cash crop. The limbs that routinely get pruned from the orchard are small or dying. A galloot must lie in wait for storm damage. Maybe we should support more trailer parks being built next to Apple orchards to attract more tornadoes?

Oak trees can grow larger without all the pesticides needed for fruit. 
But who wants an oak tote on their vintage disston?


----------



## Tim457

> Buy more combo. All you can get your hands on. Seriously. Only chunk ive seen was like 20-30 a bf.
> - chrisstef


+ another. I had a source that had some at $6/bf but he had a minimum order and I didn't have the room in the budget at the time. Have been looking for more ever since. One source told me the problem with it is it loves to twist and split if it's not stickered extremely well with a very heavy weight or ratchet straps. Another big problem is that orchards want smaller trees so there is never much that would be wide enough anymore. The vintage apple handles were made out of pure heartwood and you need 6-7 clear inches, quarter sawn. That means you need a 20" plus diameter truck to have enough room to clear off the sapwood. None of the orchards around here have that, so it's down to finding a wild apple tree and having it milled.


----------



## TobyC

> Don - You were robbed. I can pick up dried apple for £0.60p over here. Not sure if you could make a *TOTE* out of it though. Maybe if you chewed it and mashed it together with some epoxy.
> 
> Then again, maybe yours was the better deal. Looking forward to seeing the *HANDLE* you make.












.

Tote.










Handle.


----------



## Mosquito

We have an apple tree in our new backyard, and I'd be lying if I said I'm not looking forward to the day it comes down…. whether that's naturally or artificially, we'll see  Not very big, though, unfortunately.


----------



## chrisstef

I took my little guy apple picking over the weekend and I looked at around 200 trunks of apple trees. Not one more than 3' long and 16-18" around. He's goin nuts over juicy ripe apples and all I could see was saw handles. Row after row after row of saw handles.

I think youre on to something Andy but wouldn't you have to gum it instead of chew it? Ive seen Austin Powers and im pretty sure that he's rocking the dental norm for your side of the world.

Is it effed up that when I saw this pic I immediately thought "Andy's Canadian Vacation".


----------



## theoldfart

so said the handle jihadist to the tote heretic.


----------



## Brit

*Toby* - I believe the term on your side of the pond is "Whatever!" )

*Stef* - I didn't go to Canada dude. I went to the USA. I did drink my fair share of beer but I never wore leopard skin the whole time I was there. I didn't dent our luxury accommodation and I only ran two stop signs. In fact we liked it so much, we have already booked up again for next year.


----------



## chrisstef

It was that Moulson Ice that threw me off. Sorry for the mix up sir.


----------



## TobyC

> *Toby* - I believe the term on your side of the pond is "Whatever!" )
> 
> *Stef* - I didn t go to Canada dude. I went to the USA. I did drink my fair share of beer but I never wore leopard skin the whole time I was there. I didn t dent our luxury accommodation and I only ran two stop signs. In fact we liked it so much, we have already booked up again for next year.
> - Brit


Where? I would like to meet you in person.


----------



## Slyy

It's good to know the Colony can still draw people from the motherland to come check it out still from time to time.

Mentioned a friend coming by to drop some stuff off








Big two-man crosscut a Stanley badged eggbeater and what looks to be another D-100.
Good to have nice friends (especially ones eager to feed your addiction).


----------



## Brit

West coast Toby. Next year we are flying into Vegas, then onto Grand Canyon, Lake Powell, Lower Antelope Slot Canyon, Zion National Park, Monument Valley, Valley of Fire


----------



## DLK

Here are the two apple slabs I bought. About 1 3/4 to 2 1/4 thick. There are some checking and near slab is cupping the back one is fairly flat. I just grab the first reasonable two near the top. The stickered pile is about 3×5 x 3.5. I may go back and get more. If I store them indoors what do I need to do. They have been air drying only since early June so 4 months. I could take them to be kiln dried. How long or at at what MC should I wait before making a saw handle or other.


----------



## Slyy

Don as to any of your questions, i have no idea. That being said, that is some nice looking wood. Hopefully we get to see you make something sooner than later!


----------



## summerfi

Hey Don, here's my 2 cents in response to your questions. It looks like the wood would be acceptable for saw handles. You would, of course, need to work around any defects. If you go back, and the seller allows you to pick through the pile, select as much quarter sawn stock (i.e. vertical grain) as you can. It is more stable for use as saw handles. Seal the ends immediately to prevent further checking. The best way is to coat the ends with melted paraffin wax (warm in double boiler, preferably outside, to reduce chance of fire). Paint works a little, but only a little, and is far inferior to paraffin. Sticker the boards to allow drying, and either weight them down or bundle them up with ratchet straps to reduce further cupping, twisting, etc. I would air dry the boards rather than worry about kiln drying a small quantity. A rule of thumb is that lumber needs to dry a year for each inch of thickness, so you're looking at 2 years. If you have a moisture meter, I wouldn't think about using the wood until the moisture content is in the single digits. Around 6-8% is good.


----------



## DLK

Thanks Bob. I can pick thorough the whole pile no worries. The most quarter sawn piece is through the tree center and it was in the middle of the stack I just didn't have the time to get down to it. Been a busy week. I do have the ratchet straps. The pile will go I guess on top of the cabinets close to the ceiling garage heater. I'll get back to you with a picture once the dead is done.


----------



## DanKrager

Ooooooo, Combo, you don't want that apple wood to be near the heater when it is working later. It will cause your wood to dry WAY too fast, possibly, no, probably destroying it. Protect your investment…put it in a cool dry place, perhaps on an outside wall opposite the heater.
DanK


----------



## DLK

> Ooooooo, Combo, you don t want that apple wood to be near the heater when it is working later. It will cause your wood to dry WAY too fast, possibly, no, probably destroying it. Protect your investment…put it in a cool dry place, perhaps on an outside wall opposite the heater.
> DanK
> 
> - Dan Krager


O.K. I can do that. Or should I just sticker it outside, I will spend 7 months under snow if I do.


----------



## richardwootton

Sticker ing outside will be fine under snow, just make sure it's pretty level, off the ground and throw a sheet of tin or tarp over the top to protect from direct moisture. Outside air drying might actually be your best bet. As a side note, with this being a fruit tree you might want to add a good bit of weight on top and make sure to evenly sticker and distribute the weight throughout the stack so when it is dry it's pretty flat.


----------



## richardwootton

I should clarify, by "level" I mean flat.


----------



## donwilwol

If its already 4 months outside, I'd try to stack it indoors, but away from direct heat.

Also for saw handles you could cut a piece up and use a microwave to finish drying it. Try it on a piece. I would guess after 4 months of summer outside you are probably well on your way to dry.


----------



## TobyC

> West coast Toby. Next year we are flying into Vegas, then onto Grand Canyon, Lake Powell, Lower Antelope Slot Canyon, Zion National Park, Monument Valley, Valley of Fire
> 
> - Brit


Wow, sounds like a nice trip! Enjoy!


----------



## dbray45

I would sticker that apple outside for the winter, put a waterproof sheet over the top with weight and keep it 8" off the ground. I would put cinder blocks on the ground, plastic over the blocks and a 2×6 across the blocks to set the wood on. You don't want bugs finding the wood and you want lots of air. You will dry more over the winter than the summer.

Once dry, a lot of the warping may go away, depends upon the stress in the wood. I have oak slabs that had a good cup in them and once I got them dry (6%), they are very straight.


----------



## dbray45

Andy - would be great to meet you but I am East Coast.


----------



## Brit

Yeah hopefully we'll do the East Coast one day. Trouble is my wife has already been to a lot of the East Coast before we were married.


----------



## dbray45

It's all good. The idea is to have a great time and be safe.


----------



## terryR

+1to microwaving small samples. Low heat, 45 seconds at a time. It really works. A good scale will tell you when you're done.

Don't forget a shop kiln is only the cost of a dehumidifier and a few tarps away.

DonK, I'd love to trade for a boardfoot or so…still need a marking knife?


----------



## racerglen

Damhik..but the 45 sec Terry says and low heat is a great guide, Mrs might not forgive a smelly,smokey Apple flavoured microwave.. lol..


----------



## Brit

I had to get rid of our microwave about 5 years ago Glen. Somehow I managed to blow it up. Can't remember exactly what I did or didn't do now, but I remember that an exploding steak and kidney pudding was involved. One of the worst smells I've ever encountered. When I realized what was happening, I pulled out the plug and threw it into the back garden. Her indoors was not best pleased. :-(


----------



## donwilwol

Our current microwave has some issues. We need to keep it unplugged because it will just start up on ts own. (Or the house is haunted, not sure which) so its destine for the shop. It will be plugged into an outlet that goes off with the lights!


----------



## donwilwol

And ditto on buying/trading for some apple. Just long enough to fit in a flat rate game box would be fine. I've wanted to try some knob and tote with it to.


----------



## summerfi

Speaking of apple wood….


----------



## Slyy

Wow, just wow. How many million is of saws did they make again?
Also think I'll take them up on the offer and send for a free hand book.


----------



## summerfi

It's hard to imagine where they got all that apple wood. Johnny Appleseed must have been a busy boy.


----------



## putty

Wow!! I imagine back in the day, everyone had apple trees planted in their yards and on their farms.


----------



## jmartel

When I move out of the city, it sounds like I have another reason to plant some apple trees besides just eating the apples off of it.


----------



## richardwootton

> When I move out of the city, it sounds like I have another reason to plant some apple trees besides just eating the apples off of it.
> 
> - jmartel


"Movin' to the country, gonna eat a lotta apples. Movin' to the country, gonna eat a lotta apples." Thanks Jmart, now I've got the Presidents of the United States stuck in my head!


----------



## theoldfart

^ Gonna paint my mailbox blue.


----------



## DLK

PM me on the trades. I tried to get more apple wood, but he was not in, I'll try again on Friday. (The saw mill shop was wide open and I could have easily stole the apple plus the Stanley 113 he has hanging on the wall, but I didn't)


----------



## duckmilk

DanK, good on you for being honest. Buy all the apple that will work then say, "What are you gonna do with that funny looking plane up there on your wall?"


----------



## DanKrager

Duck, wrong DanK. Typo…Don K. Just for the record… 

DanK


----------



## DLK

> *DonK*, good on you for being honest. Buy all the apple that will work then say, "What are you gonna do with that funny looking plane up there on your wall?"
> 
> - duckmilk


I did ask about the plane, he says he planes to do something with it some day. Every so often I'll ask again.

Also in the long run its always better to be honest.


----------



## DLK

> If you have a moisture meter, I wouldn t think about using the wood until the moisture content is in the single digits. Around 6-8% is good.
> 
> - summerfi


Reads 11% now.


----------



## duckmilk

Sorry 'bout that DanK. Sometimes my keyboard doesn't tell me which finger I need to use


----------



## Slyy

So, I've reached what is my first experience with etch versus appearance. Many of the saws I've restored were the extremes: not very rusty or good enough to use but no hope of an etch. How should I approach this?









I've used only naval jelly and then ligh/medium scotch pad for grim etc then just 500 paper. I feel that in just a few strokes the "D" in the keystone may have lost slight contrast and worried I may be getting down to its level already. Maybe I'm nowhere close and I'm too cautious. Opinions, options, advice, cocktail recipies?


----------



## summerfi

Jake, for the etch area I typically use 320 or 400 grit paper backed by a small wooden block. If the etch is savable, the block will glide over it and leave it intact. If it's not savable…well there's nothing you can do anyway.


----------



## Brit

Well here's the thing Slyy, you won't be able to get rid of that pitting without also getting rid of the etch. Since this isn't a rare saw, I wouldn't worry about keeping the etch if you intend to use that saw. I would use a wooden block about 2" wide by 4" long and wrap some P80 grit paper around it and sand in long strokes parallel to the tooth line, NOT the back of the saw. The plate should be resting on a flat surface. Even with P80 grit, you have a couple of hours work ahead of you to get one side of the saw plate presentable. Once you have an even scratch pattern, switch to P120, then P180, P240, P320 and finally P400. If you go any higher than that the pitting will just get accentuated because the pits won't be shiny when the rest of the plate will be.

P.S. - You won't need to go to the gym on the day you do this. )


----------



## Brit

Why not try Bob's suggestion first and if it isn't working out, reach for the P80 grit. I would strongly caution you against using a belt sander or any other kind of sander come to that. I have tried it and it is very difficult to get comparable results to hand sanding. It's a labor of love.


----------



## Slyy

Thx fellas you two are the voices of reason. I'm using a heavy rubber 4×2 sand block which seems to be working well. 
And yes Andy, this is a D-8 and not a super early one just always sad to see them loose a piece of themselves regardless.


----------



## chrisstef

Yup that's a saw that's stuck between a $h!t and a fart. Id end up frustrated and go with Andy's style now that ive done a bunch of saws but , if I was in your shoes jake, id go with bobs method and then get frustrated and drop to 80 or 100 grit.


----------



## summerfi

There's a dandy of a saw vise on ebay now. At 36" long and 50 lbs. weight, this vise would handle any saw you could throw at it. I'd love to have it, but the price is too rich for me. I'll stick to my wooden one.


----------



## chrisstef

That's badass Bob ^

If I stumbled on it in the wild id def have to bring it home but like you, I aint paying the shipping on that tank.


----------



## DLK

The shipping price alone is too much for me.


----------



## JayT

That is friggin' hoss! Even if I wanted to pay shipping, there is no where in the shop for it to be stored.


----------



## Brit

That's the holy grail right there Bob.


----------



## CB_Cohick

That saw vice made me tingle. I need some alone time.


----------



## summerfi

Here's a picture of that vise from the manufacturer's 1905 catalog. Original price $15.
DonK, since the vise was made in Michigan, it is incumbent upon you to buy it and return it home. An inflation calculator says that $15 in 1905 would be worth about $400 now, so you'd be getting it at half price.


----------



## Johnny7

*Don K*

There's one of these on display at the Old Victoria Restoration in Rockland, MI, about 50 miles southwest of you


----------



## DLK

Wow *Johnny* thanks. I didn't know about this. I need to visit it.

*Bob* thanks for the encouragement, but I spent my allowance on apple wood.


----------



## terryR

A very worthy addition to any shop!


----------



## matt97381

Good day all, first-time poster and wannabe woodworker here.

I've had a saw problem for about five years or so; looks like I've found my therapy group.

Mostly I find saws buried among castaway junk at local thrift stores. I've not paid more than five dollars for a saw, save once or twice when I was feeling especially lonely.

I haven't done much by way of restoration, other than basic cleaning. I kind of like a saw to tell its story through its patina, though some could stand a bit of rust removal.

Hope the pic is clear, just snapped it with the phone.

Will post some close-ups of particular favorites when time permits.


----------



## matt97381

Oh, no picture? Maybe I can't upload straight from my phone?

Let's try this..


----------



## DLK

Apple wood update. I decided to buy in total these 7 slabs.










All are approx 11" by 48" by 2". I estimate 28 useable bf. I paid $70 for the lot. There is indeed lots of checking and knots. They were stickered for 4 months outdoors with out weight or compression. I have ordered some anchorseal which shall arrive in the middle of next week. The moisture content is 10-11% now. My understanding is that apple (or I think in general fruit trees) won't loose any more moisture after 45 days sticking and the 1 year for every inch is just folklore. But.. I don't know if this "fact" is authoritative or not. I may check with our forestry department. My question is should I just sticker them indoors as is or should I remove the bark and cut them into smaller clear pieces.


----------



## Brit

Welcome Matt. Hope you manage to sort your upload out. We can talk saws all day here.


----------



## Brit

Nice haul Don. I reckon you could resell some of that for a healthy profit.


----------



## DLK

> Nice haul Don. I reckon you could resell some of that for a healthy profit.
> 
> - Brit


Thanks, Maybe. Its not very clear. But there are many spaces for saw handles, tool handles and so forth.


----------



## summerfi

Don, leave the pieces full length. If you cut it into smaller pieces, you then risk those pieces developing more checks. I don't believe there is anything special about fruitwood that would cause it to loose all the moisture it's going to loose in the first 45 days. That sounds like fable to me. The inch per year thing is just a rule of thumb. There are many things that affect the rate of drying. But even at that it's a pretty good rule to go by.


----------



## DLK

Thanks Bob as you can tell once again I don't know what I'm doing. I'm just jumping feet first. I need all the help I can get.


----------



## matt97381

@ Brit: Thank you kindly. I've lurked here a bit and I must say it's full of helpful and civil posters.

Concerning my photo upload, my second attempt was a simple jpeg right from my desktop, but no luck. Maybe there is a moderator approval process for new members? I need to do some investigating.


----------



## chrisstef

Might take 5 posts matt. Welcome to the gang. Initiation is 3 hail madden and clemsons and 2 spear and jacksons.


----------



## Slyy

Matt, it does take some moderator approval to post new threads and add pictures. Shouldn't take but a few posts, but I do know in my case, it did not work 30 days into my account and had to send a message to forum moderator Cricket and she fixed it right up.

Also, to clarify Stef's post: checking through the forum by-laws, that's actually 2 spear & Jackson owed from any new forum poster to each regular contributing member in good standing with 800 or more posts.

Edit to add: forgot Addendum 11.3.4 that makes clear that design and function of the 2 Spear & Jackson saws is intentially not stated, leaving that to the new contributor's discretion.


----------



## duckmilk

Matt, welcome. I upload all my pics to the computer, then adjust the pixels to web size.

DonK (not DanK  ) hopefully Bob or others will be able to help you out more on the dryness of the wool. Good score btw!


----------



## matt97381

Thanks chrisstef and slyy, good to know. I will bide my time.

Hail Spear and Jackson! Hail Spear and Jackson!

I'm having a bit of a Twilight Zone moment.. It just so happens that I just acquired my first Spear and Jackson about a week ago. Same exact saw as the spectacular example showcased by Brit in post #8 of this thread. Mine's not quite so pretty as that one - handle and blade are both whole and well preserved, medallion is nice, but unfortunately it's missing the other three nuts. Guess I'll have to start watching eBay..


----------



## DLK

> DonK (not DanK  ) hopefully Bob or others will be able to help you out more on the dryness of the *wool*. Good score btw!
> 
> - duckmilk


Made me laugh. My wife is the fiber artists and has wool fibre everywhere, spinning it, dyeing it, weaving it, felting it. so there is lots of wet wool here that needs drying too. But I think you meant wood.


----------



## DLK

> Don, leave the pieces full length. If you cut it into smaller pieces, you then risk those pieces developing more checks. I don t believe there is anything special about fruitwood that would cause it to loose all the moisture it s going to loose in the first 45 days. That sounds like fable to me. The inch per year thing is just a rule of thumb. There are many things that affect the rate of drying. But even at that it s a pretty good rule to go by.
> 
> - summerfi


So last night I spent some time reading scientific articles that I could find. Drying time apparently varies depending on a number of factors including species, location, time of year (in that location) when air drying started, and so. My impression is that for me in Michigan's the upper peninsula (2/3) of a year per inch would be enough. In Arizona drying time is I think is half of that, but then it would be to fast causing honey-combing in some species like red-oak. (A defect I have to put up with Kiln dried Oak I get here from commercial lumber yards. They dry it to fast.) In the damp south its probably longer. So hence the rule of thumb for 1 year per inch.

I will anchorseal and stack the apple wood indoors under pressure with ratchet straps and periodically check moisture content and see.

I have two places to put the wood I think. (1) on a top shelf near the ceiling, (2) on the floor behind the CSM. Option (2) will I suppose have less airflow then (1) but will be cooler. What is better?


----------



## terryR

> - Combo Prof


Awesome! Makes me wish for a hydraulic sawmill even more!

Don, I'd stack it on the floor. And forget about it for a year.


----------



## terryR

.Welcome, Matt!


----------



## summerfi

Stack it near the floor but not on the floor, i.e. put 2×4 or 4×4 spacers under it to keep it up a little. Leave one side of the stack a few inches away from the wall to allow air flow. Don't forget to tighten the ratchet straps occasionally as the wood shrinks.


----------



## terryR

^yep, I SHOULD have said sticker it on the floor.
Thanks, Bob.


----------



## TobyC

> There s a dandy of a saw vise on ebay now. At 36" long and 50 lbs. weight, this vise would handle any saw you could throw at it. I d love to have it, but the price is too rich for me. I ll stick to my wooden one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - summerfi


*Look here.*=


----------



## DLK

Well I knew to put it on stickers and there will be stickers in between layers too. There will also be a few layers of Red maple on top that needs drying. The floor is 3/4 " plywood on 2" foam board. Keeps my toeies warm. So now where will I put the three poplar trees, I'm having rough sawn.


----------



## Tim457

> Well I knew to put it on stickers and there will be stickers in between layers too. There will also be a few layers of Red maple on top that needs drying. The floor is 3/4 " plywood on 2" foam board. Keeps my toeies warm. So now where will I put the three poplar trees, I m having rough sawn.
> - Combo Prof


Why not on top of the apple? The more weight the merrier and lumberyards used to stack stuff really high. Would take careful stacking I suppose.


----------



## terryR

Heck, Don, I'll come grab all that Apple and get out of the way!
Just stack the poplar in its place!


----------



## DLK

well I guess I could cut the popular in half (From 8 to 4-foot lengths.) I only will have it because I had to cut 3 trees down so I said hey why not have the wood mizer guy come and saw lumber. But I only have so much room. Getting crowded in the shop. The Popular may have to go outside.


----------



## richardwootton

> well I guess I could cut the popular in half (From 8 to 4-foot lengths.) I only will have it because I had to cut 3 trees down so I said hey why not have the wood mizer guy come and saw lumber. But I only have so much room. Getting crowded in the shop. The Popular may have to go outside.
> 
> - Combo Prof


I'd probably just start stacking outside. You should see how much floor space is taken up in my shop right now due to air drying lumber! But I'm not about to move it all again until it's dead dry!


----------



## warrenkicker

Picked up a 42X last week with paperwork. Need to try it out soon. $9 made it seem like I couldn't leave it there.


----------



## Tim457

Yes, for $9 it would have been very wrong to have left it. Instructions too, very cool. I just looked through some of my past finds and saw the Stanley marking on a saw set I didn't think much of at the time. It's a Stanley 43 for setting "Large crosscut saws such as bucksaws and two man saws." I don't have one of those yet, but I'm on the lookout and now I'm all set when I do find one.
Here's the 43 manual:
http://tooltrip.com/tooltrip9/stanley/stan-mbox/sawset.pdf


----------



## TheFridge

Like this terry?


----------



## DLK

There are loads of large crosscut saws up here. I could probably find one for you. I pass them up all the time.
The problem would be the shipping.


----------



## warrenkicker

I got a Taintor #7 earlier this year but it seems to leave marks on the plate when I use it. It has the thin washer and I have the instructions from the internet but your hand gets very tired running it.










The 42X just feels nice in the hand.

My dad has a big two-man saw out at the farm. He grew up in the era when they learned how to sharpen saws in high school. We have used that big saw a couple of times and he has sharpened it with a disc grinder. A saw set may have helped too. Lots of rust on it so we used bar soap to try and help it work more smoothly.


----------



## terryR

> Like this terry?
> 
> - TheFridge


Oh hell yes!


----------



## Brit

The only trouble with those saws Terry is that you need another equally troubled person to pull while you push.


----------



## DLK

I agree with Brit. I'm holding out for a one man two handled saw like this:


----------



## Brit

Yeah me too. There was one on ebay.co.uk a few months back that was pristine new old stock and I forgot to bid on it. Still kicking myself.


----------



## JayT

> The only trouble with those saws Terry is that you need another equally troubled person to pull while you push.
> 
> - Brit


Nah, he'll just train one of the goats. They've got to be good for something other than devouring weeds.


----------



## Mosquito

Just use a bungee cord lol


----------



## Brit

That's funny Mos.


----------



## summerfi

First rule of sawing with a 2-man crosscut: you never push; pull only.


----------



## JayT

This one's hanging on the wall of our office conference room.










One of these days it may walk off. Unfortunately, I'm the only old tool buff in the office, so it probably wouldn't take long for them to track it down.


----------



## terryR

Wouldn't it be cool to have the skills to re-sharpen one of these ol' workhorses?
I'd have to let some young guy pull the beast, though.


----------



## bandit571

Sold this one last spring…









Used it a couple times, then sold it off….5 footer.


----------



## Tim457

> There are loads of large crosscut saws up here. I could probably find one for you. I pass them up all the time.
> The problem would be the shipping.
> 
> - Combo Prof


If you find one that is in the same condition as the one in your picture, name brand, and it's cheap, I'll figure out a reason to make a road trip to come get it. Better yet, I need a one man crosscut saw like that, a 2 man buck saw, and a 2 man felling saw. Being realistic though, I don't know any of my friends crazy enough to saw with me either, so probably the one man crosscut like Bandito's is what I really need.


----------



## summerfi

For anyone who hasn't seen it before, here is THE manual for sharpening and using crosscut saws.

http://www.fs.fed.us/t-d/pubs/pdfpubs/pdf77712508/pdf77712508dpi72.pdf


----------



## duckmilk

Tried three times to upload a pic from my computer, but it won't show for some reason.
Anyhow, it is a 30" crosscut from my granddad. I've sharpened it once and it cuts well. For single person use, this size is easy to handle.

I agree with Bob, these saws take a different method to sharpen them.


----------



## duckmilk

Here it is, no etch, some pitting, no medallion, meh bolts and a couple of cracks in the handle. But it works.


----------



## DLK

> Wouldn t it be cool to have the skills to re-sharpen one of these ol workhorses?
> I d have to let some young guy pull the beast, though.
> 
> - terryR


I got the tools to do so. Thats the only reason I want one. Not a good reason, but its a reason. I also know a guy who knows a guy who sharpens them as a hobby.

*Tim* I saw one of these last year for about $40 in excellent condition. But I didn't know I wanted one last year.

Pretty easy to find them in the condition that duck shows, often missing one or both of the handles.

Next summer I'll keep my eyes open for one (or two).


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

If I came back as a saw, I'd wanna come back as a Dovetail saw. Those big tree saws were like the Donkey of the saw family


----------



## summerfi

LOL that's funny Turtle. If I came back as a saw, I'd want to be a musical saw. Then I could sing all day and never have to do any real work.


----------



## donwilwol

as long as I don't have to come back as an antique saw.


----------



## JayT

> as long as I don t have to come back as an antique saw.
> 
> - Don W


C'mon, Don, you'd look good with some flowers and birds in your reincarnated hair.


----------



## daddywoofdawg

I bet the red-green show has a way to make a two man saw work without two men!


----------



## summerfi

You asked for it-you got it!





View on YouTube


----------



## Slyy

O. M. G.

Serious freaking LAWL!!!!


----------



## warrenkicker

I thought the sequins might match Bob's eyes. It is from the 20's or 30's so it is both musical and an antique.


----------



## matt97381

Trying the pic thing again…


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

That Red Green video is a Classic ! I can eat popcorn and watch his old shows all night


----------



## Brit

Bob - That was hilarious.

Warren - That is some serious bling.

Matt - You'll fit in very nicely here. We can't offer you a cure, just an abundance of understanding.


----------



## duckmilk

LAWL @ Red Green

Where the heck did you find that Warren? And what brand is it?


----------



## duckmilk

Better than wall paper Matt ;-)


----------



## warrenkicker

Found it at a flea market here in Kansas. The guy had no idea what it was. I was surprised at the copper plating and the rhinestones. After I left that day I figured out what it was. I couldn't get back to the flea market for a month but when I made it back it was still there. The guy said he hadn't tried to cut anything with it and I was glad he hadn't. Had to give him $10 but I figured it was an easy $10 worth of entertainment.

It is The Musical Saw by Mussehl and Westphal back between the world wars. Copper and gold plated with rhinestones set in celluloid washers. My daughter plays the viola and she is now playing this saw and a lower toned Disston No 12 I picked up for $1. Guess her orchestra teacher wants to see if she can play at a concert.

Players bend the blade to change notes. A handle called a cheat is used to help keep from wearing out their hands. I had a nice piece of curly walnut that seemed perfect for this.


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

Well Done Warren !


----------



## CFrye

Nice score on the musical saw, Warren! Guess we'll all look a little closer at saws with bling, now! Would love to hear your daughter playing it.


----------



## DLK

Warren, can you make a video of your daughter playing the saw for us?


----------



## duckmilk

> Warren, can you make a video of your daughter playing the saw for us?
> 
> - Combo Prof


And teach me how?


----------



## donwilwol

> Found it at a flea market here in Kansas. The guy had no idea what it was. I was surprised at the copper plating and the rhinestones. After I left that day I figured out what it was. I couldn t get back to the flea market for a month but when I made it back it was still there. The guy said he hadn t tried to cut anything with it and I was glad he hadn t. Had to give him $10 but I figured it was an easy $10 worth of entertainment.
> 
> It is The Musical Saw by Mussehl and Westphal back between the world wars. Copper and gold plated with rhinestones set in celluloid washers. My daughter plays the viola and she is now playing this saw and a lower toned Disston No 12 I picked up for $1. Guess her orchestra teacher wants to see if she can play at a concert.
> 
> Players bend the blade to change notes. A handle called a cheat is used to help keep from wearing out their hands. I had a nice piece of curly walnut that seemed perfect for this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - warrenkicker


Can we get a picture of the saw?


----------



## Brit

Scroll up Don. Post #11450


----------



## chrisstef

You play it with a bow? Im all types of cornfused.


----------



## DLK

> You play it with a bow? Im all types of cornfused.
> 
> - chrisstef


See this for example.

When I was 8 or so I used to sit in the front yard and try to do this (with a Bucher rip saw I still have). I must have seen it on Ed. Sullivan. I didn't have a bow. (I was an odd child.)


----------



## warrenkicker

She has had the first saw for a month and the second for a little less time. She hasn't had a huge amount of time to practice yet so she is unwilling to play in public yet. Here is her setup. $10 and $1 saws and a $5 soft-side gun case that fits the saws well. The copper polished up well.


----------



## ColonelTravis

Have any of you bought a saw kit from Blackburn?

Was going to order a kit for a carcase saw this week, wondered if anyone's had experience with them.


----------



## summerfi

From Red Green to classical music…by golly this thread covers the full spectrum of what you could possibly do with a saw.

Warren, is that a cello bow she uses?


----------



## JayT

> Have any of you bought a saw kit from Blackburn?
> 
> Was going to order a kit for a carcase saw this week, wondered if anyone s had experience with them.
> 
> - ColonelTravis


No, but I did get a couple saw plates from Ron Bontz and would purchase from him again in a heartbeat. Treated me right and got good quality products in a timely fashion. Plus, he's an LJ member.

Just another option for you.


----------



## Mosquito

> Have any of you bought a saw kit from Blackburn?
> 
> Was going to order a kit for a carcase saw this week, wondered if anyone s had experience with them.
> 
> - ColonelTravis


I bought a dovetail saw kit from Blackburn for the last saw swap. I prefer the hardware (saw bolts, nuts, and medallions) from tgiag.com, as they're a more 'standard' size, where the blackburn ones are It think 7/16" or something like that and they use star washers instead of a square recess. Otherwise, everything else was as I would expect.


----------



## ColonelTravis

Great info., thanks. I didn't know about Ron Bontz.

Mos, I watched your panel saw video series last night and said - man, I can't wait to do this. You'd mentioned the garage guys.


----------



## Brit

*Combo Prof* - Check this out and all will become clear. There are loads of other example of people playing the saw on YouTube. It is all in the 'S shape formed by one hand holding the toe (some people use a cheat like Warren made for his daughter) and the vibrato is achieved by wobbling the knee.






*ColonelTravis* - Isaac's saws are the best available today in my opinion. When I eventually get around to making my saws, I will be buying his kits. Just as an interesting aside, somewhere way back in this thread I called his saws 'Simply Classic' and Isaac (who monitors this thread by the way) contacted me and asked if he could use that as his tag line on his web site. You will see it now appears under his logo on the site. It fits his saws well I think.


----------



## DLK

^*Brit* I think you meant this for *chrisstef*. It was clear to me. However the link you gave is a better example then what I gave.


----------



## planepassion

My only concern for saw kits is that Blackburn offers slotted backs whereas TGIA.com offers folded backs. I'm not interested in gluing the back to the sawplate. So I guess that leaves hammering the slotted back tight…which makes me nervous. Any comments?

what I do like about Blackburn is that they offer kits. And you have to assemble your own as far as I can tell at TGIA. can't seem to find a kit page there…


----------



## Mosquito

Blackburn actually suggests that you use a vise for closing the back, as opposed to a hammer (better control). It's not that bad, but was one of my hesitations as well. It's not much different from installing the plate in the folded back of the TGIAG backs after that.

I personally prefer the aesthetic of the folded backs myself, but that's all that is, a personal preference.

And (unless something changed), you are correct, no kits from TGIAG, other than some stairsaw kits I believe. Having the kit is nice, but if you're looking at making your own saws, you're probably able to pick out what you need too, I would imagine. I haven't had any interaction with anyone at Blackburn, but have had some e-mail exchanges with Dominic at TGIAG, and he helped me out with some questions I had about a specific size plate I was looking for, and what I wanted to do.

Overall, having used both sources, I would say they are both excellent quality parts, and you won't go wrong with either


----------



## planepassion

Thank you Mos. One the one hand, I also like the traditional aesthetics of a folded back. But on the other, I'm open to trying new things. I'm thinking that either back would look mighty good in the saw till.


----------



## Mosquito

To me, folded backs look more traditional while slotted backs look more modern.


----------



## ColonelTravis

More great info., thanks.

Blackburn offers a bronze back, which I haven't seen in any other kit (not that I have to order a kit but it's great for the lazy man.) Bronze is stronger than brass, is it heavier? I'm probably never gonna buy a Cosman saw but I love how his are a little heavier, which, to me, helps the saw do its job better.


----------



## Brit

> ^*Brit* I think you meant this for *chrisstef*. It was clear to me. However the link you gave is a better example then what I gave.
> 
> - Combo Prof


Sorry, yeah it was for Stef.


----------



## racerglen

Shhh..Steph's French polishing something..


----------



## richardwootton

> Shhh..Steph s French polishing something..
> 
> - racerglen


I think you mean Steph's getting his nails French polished.


----------



## chrisstef

Dont worry wootton, ill save my toes so you can do em.


----------



## donwilwol

> Scroll up Don. Post #11450
> 
> - Brit


How'd I miss that?


----------



## theoldfart

Harvey Peace perfection saws, worth chasing? Left one on the table and I'm pretty sure it'll be there tomorrow.


----------



## Brit

Yes they are Kevin depending on the model and condition. Check out this link:

http://www.hyperkitten.com/tools/hwpeace/saws/handsaws.php


----------



## richardwootton

I like Harvey Peace saws and I know Stefan likes them also.


----------



## theoldfart

The saw has been used and abused, just like the medallion. Iv'e got nothing to lose, it'll probably go for a dollar at most.


----------



## chrisstef

Likes my peace saws. Smaller handle opening on full size and panel size fits my hand much better than my disstons.


----------



## jordanp

Anyone on here selling quarter sawn saw handle blanks yet?

I usually only need a couple here and there and none of my local supplies have been stocking quarter sawn anything it seems..


----------



## theoldfart

Picked these up this weekend, much work ahead.


----------



## chrisstef

Nice haul of. Miter, 7, mystery, peace. Me likey.

Found the mother lode of apple. The cull pile.


----------



## theoldfart

The mystery has split nuts and a well formed nib. I kinda like the 8" cast hack saw, it has two positions for the blade one parallel to the saws axis and the other is at 90 deg.

Stef, if you like the H Peace its yours. Does need some work but your are right, the handle fit works for me as well.


----------



## donwilwol

You better save that pile from the wood stove Stef!


----------



## chrisstef

Ohh im goin back during the week to talk to somebody. Aim for straight and minimal checking i assume?

Pm ya tomorrow kevin. Good lookin out buddy.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Okay, shield your eyes for a NOS beauty of the ages: A Disston 23!




























I don't believe it's tasted wood. Much text on the back, saying how good a saw it is.


----------



## bandit571

Ok. Have a brass medallion with no place to call home. 13/16" diameter, Warranted superior with a large eagle

It also has a split nut

Needs a good home, anyone interested?


----------



## racerglen

Smitty, that's a beaut ! Fairly new one thought ?


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Glen - very new in lineage. Handle positively hurts in the hand. Maybe take a vintage handle and match it up to new blade!


----------



## theoldfart

Smitty, just noticed the custom molded man made material case for that D23. Pretty snazzy! I may have a handle or two if you need one.

Just dated the mitre saw I picked up this weekend. Around 1888 to 1896. I'm going to use it with the new old Stanley box.


----------



## terryR

Nice find, Smitty.
I'm not sure I'd even use it?


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Yeah, I'm considering that too (not using). But you know, it's wicked sharp, and with a new (old) handle, it'd be a pretty cool tool. What it has now seriously hurts to grip.


----------



## bandit571

Hmmm, no takers on the medallion? Split nut, WS with a fancy eagle? Need an address to send it to…...anyone?


----------



## theoldfart

Hey, has any body heard from Doc Bailey at all?


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

I have not a single split nut saw, bandit, but thanks.


----------



## bandit571

Part has been boxed up, and ready to mail tomorrow's mail… have fun with it…


----------



## bandit571

happen to have a couple D-23s sitting around…..a 10 ppi crosscut, and a 6ppi rip. Spent about $2 for the pair….The 6ppi was free, at that..









The 6ppi free D-23….









and the $2 10 ppi crosscut D-23..









And the handle, with the $2 price tag..


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

That 'free' one has a nice handle, bandit!


----------



## bandit571

Both feel pretty good in the hands, too. Both seem to have decent etches on the plates. Just garage sale saws…


----------



## dbray45

I was reading in the Disston pages that the totes were drilled when that blade was punched, making each tote individual for that saw. That being said, after making several thousand saws, your holes are going to be pretty consistent.


----------



## planepassion

Oh Smitty, that D-23 is a beauty all right. Though it's a later model, which means the stock handle sucks, the steel should be better than the stuff stores (not makers of saws) are peddling today. So your strategy to replace the handle and make it a user is good. On the other hand, keeping it pristine and in collector condition would be good too…


----------



## ToddJB

Sell it to a collector that would love it for all of it's square handled glory and use the money to ship off some of you older saws to sharpeners to turn up for you.

I have no desire to own a saw like that, but I'm sure there are some folks out there that would shutter at the idea of replacing the handle for a mismatch.


----------



## MNclone

I've got an old tote without a blade and some old blades attached to crappy totes. The old tote is smaller than the crappy ones. Does it make sense to cut down a blade for the old tote or do I need to try tracking down an older saw?
How do I tell if a saw is made of inferior steel that isn't worth repurposing?


----------



## Brit

A good example of a bad restoration job. Shame really because I think he meant well.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Refurbished-Vintage-Saw-Size-80-cm-long-/401008607662?hash=item5d5df9c1ae


----------



## Slyy

> Hey, has any body heard from Doc Bailey at all?
> 
> - theoldfart


His absence hasn't gone unnoticed on my part Kev, haven't seen him post in a while it seems.

Recent D-8, spent about 4 hours 100-1500 grit. Was certainly more pitting then a cursory visual exp took lead me to believe. Part of the etch is absolutely just visible and tried JT's blueing technique to very little effect. I assume I've got enough of the plate scrubbed down that I'm almost just at the etch's deepest level.









Tip of the scratch is at the t in "excellent" and obviously nothing shows up in the photo. Imagine if have another several hours each side to get into the pits visible. May just stop at this point. Handle and brass cleaned up well though and were minimally injured.

Edit for Brit:
Geez that refurb!
I imagine most of his rust removal looked much like this:


----------



## donwilwol

> A good example of a bad restoration job. Shame really because I think he meant well.
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Refurbished-Vintage-Saw-Size-80-cm-long-/401008607662?hash=item5d5df9c1ae
> 
> - Brit


Maybe just a tad aggressive!


----------



## matt97381

Spear and Jackson


----------



## summerfi

Now that is just plain wrong. I'll never look at my saw the same again.


----------



## donwilwol

Yikes


----------



## terryR

^Oh the horror!

Looking good, Jake. A labor of love, huh?

MNclone, switching totes between saws will depend on the hardware aligning. You may have to drill additional holes in the saw plate? The size of the tote doesn't necessarily have to match the size of the plate…as long as the tool feels good in your hand.

If the uncomfortable tote isn't valuable as a collector, you can always re-shape it with rasps and sandpaper…custom!

If you have a Disston saw, you can check here for the quality of the steel.
http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/steel.html

And a good place for anything Disston
http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/

Just post a photo of any saw here, and the gurus can almost always ID the maker and probably infer the steel's quality.

Good luck!


----------



## MNclone

> MNclone, switching totes between saws will depend on the hardware aligning. You may have to drill additional holes in the saw plate? The size of the tote doesn t necessarily have to match the size of the plate…as long as the tool feels good in your hand.
> 
> If the uncomfortable tote isn t valuable as a collector, you can always re-shape it with rasps and sandpaper…custom!
> 
> If you have a Disston saw, you can check here for the quality of the steel.
> http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/steel.html
> 
> And a good place for anything Disston
> http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/
> 
> Just post a photo of any saw here, and the gurus can almost always ID the maker and probably infer the steel s quality.
> 
> Good luck!
> 
> - terryR


Sorry, I haven't had time to grab pics. There is a disston and a Nicholson that have plywood totes and a Stanley with a plastic handle. The stanley appears to be junk from head to toe. I figured if I'm shortening the blade I will be drilling new holes as well.


----------



## chrisstef

Lol matt. Well played. I bet theres split nuts in that duet.


----------



## Slyy

> Lol matt. Well played. I bet theres split nuts in that duet.
> 
> - chrisstef


He'll be here all night ladies and gentlemen, don't forget to tip your waitress.


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

A little time Piddeling in the shop and I got my old D8 XcutXcut out and cleaned it up


























While I got my hands good and greasy I pulled this Simmonds 7 rip out and I'll do a restore on it. I'll post pictures on it when I get it done.


----------



## racerglen

Sheesh, that D8 is a beauty !..nice work..


----------



## CFrye

Nicely done, Turtle!


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

Thanks Glenn & Candy,,, I fit that handle to my hand back in 1980, the brass,, I was just goofing around a bit back when.


----------



## Slyy

Semi parallel posting here:

It's amazing what you can get done when this semester isn't sucking the life outa you:
Pitted plate still, but definitely one of my better ones a 1897-1900 No. 4 based on medallion and spine stamp.
Before:








After:


----------



## summerfi

Nice job Jake. You're stepping up your game lately.


----------



## warrenkicker

Nice job.

I may have bitten off a lot for my first sharpening attempt but my slightly younger No 4 needed a lot of reworking of the teeth to make it into a saw again. I am guessing I took at least 1/8" off of the plate.



















Have to go through the teeth again and make use of my new 42X and see if I can make a smooth saw.


----------



## Slyy

Nice Warren, yours is looking mighty fine as well. Yeah mine has hand nothing down to the teeth yet. It had a bit of a kink in the blade that I think I got out pretty well not sure how I'd want it sharpened, probably xcut since I have a 12 PPI rip brass back tenon saw but honestly not sure. Plus I'm not near proficient enough in my sharpening yet to feel confident doing it xcut, 8-5 PPI rip I'm okay on resharpening, but jointing and cutting new teeth, I'd probably send it to someone and pay them to do it.


----------



## ToddJB

I'm positive this has been discussed but would someone mind posting a link to the drill bit that is recommended for saw plates?

Also were most plated holes the same size?


----------



## racerglen

Todd, my weapon of choice has been a carbide masonary bit with a quick hit on the grinder to make it more of a point to the tip, and then lots of lube. As far as the holes, I'm dealing with a British Garlick and sons backsaw right now that has one 8th holes for the handle, a heck of a lot smaller than the usual Disston et all.


----------



## terryR

Damn, Jake!


----------



## theoldfart

Jake, Summerfi did two tenon saws. One is rip the other xcut. They are hands down my best saws.


----------



## ToddJB

Thanks Glen


----------



## Brit

Todd - Isaac at Blackburn Tools recommends the following solid carbide bit for his fixings which drills a 3/16ths hole through the plate.

http://blackburntools.com/new-tools/new-saws-and-related/carbide-spade-drill/index.html

The diameter of the holes in vintage saw plates varied from maker to maker.


----------



## summerfi

Yes, these work superbly well. I get mine from Amazon, which has a selection of sizes.


----------



## ToddJB

Thanks guys!


----------



## ErikF

Hello all. I'm looking to get back in the swing of saw making and that means I have a major issue to address.

Cutting the slot in the handle for the saw plate is a pain in the butt. Each method I use seems to work well 70% of the time, the other times leave me frustrated.

Issue: when using a slotted back it is necessary for the slot in the back to line up near perfectly with the slot in the handle. If it's a little off then the plate is deflected to one side or the other when the screws are tightened. The deflection is at the last inch or so at the heel and can be fixed but it takes a lot of time.

I'm not doing one or two handles- I have a stack of 100 that need the slot and will continue with batch runs.

I need consistency. My plan is to build a bandsaw that runs the blade horizontally instead of vertically- picture a very small woodmizer. It would be stationary with a sliding table that feeds perpendicular to the blade. I need it to be as rigid as possible so I think I will need a deep blade- 3" wide and .2" thick (no kerf). 
This is my initial idea to solve the problem but would like as much insight as I can get. A main thing- it needs to be doable for someone with no woodworking experience.


----------



## donwilwol

What's the expected advantage of a horizontal blade?


----------



## ErikF

> What s the expected advantage of a horizontal blade?
> 
> - Don W


I feel the rest of the setup would be easier to work with on a horizontal plane.


----------



## chrisstef

How are you cutting the slots now Erik? If its proprietary info I understand. I would think a thin kerfed, small diameter blade would work best but im kinda throwin darts here. Im kind of envisioning a small circular blade on a shaper table.


----------



## MNclone

I would just build a sled for a verticle bandsaw. No real benefit to horizontal that I see.


----------



## summerfi

Hey Erik, we've been missing you. Glad to see you back here. Sometime write a long post and let us know what you've been up to, how the new shop has come together, how the business is going, etc.

As for the saw handles, I don't have much advice for you. I think Stef's suggestion of using a large slitting blade has some merit. I'd be concerned about a thin band blade wandering a bit, especially when used by someone with no experience. There's something to be said for doing it the old fashioned way, by hand. It may be slower, but the old British handle makers could turn out dozens of handles in a day. Their handles may not be as precise as production made handles, but then they don't look as sterile as production made handles either. Remember what happened to Disston and other makers when they decided, for the sake of economics, to make everything with machines. Whatever you decide, good luck to you, and stay in touch.

Edit: Just saw your new post about how things are going for you. Glad you're having fun. Keep it up brother.


----------



## ErikF

Bob, I hear ya on the whole doing everything by machine. I'm looking to find the balance. I have a guy that works for me on a part time basis so I need to simplify a few steps. Cutting the slot is one of them. He's a great worker but isn't a woodworker- it's also not a career job so I need the next guy to be able to pick it up when this guy moves on.

I have used the slitting saw method with mixed results. There is no kerf on the .02" blades so the heat and drift can be problematic. I'm picturing a wide blade, picture 3" or more but only .02" thick. With that kind of width I would be able to put a lot of tension on it and I think the depth would help the blade track straight. 
Thoughts?


----------



## donwilwol

> Bob, I hear ya on the whole doing everything by machine. I m looking to find the balance. I have a guy that works for me on a part time basis so I need to simplify a few steps. Cutting the slot is one of them. He s a great worker but isn t a woodworker- it s also not a career job so I need the next guy to be able to pick it up when this guy moves on.
> 
> I have used the slitting saw method with mixed results. There is no kerf on the .02" blades so the heat and drift can be problematic. I m picturing a wide blade, picture 3" or more but only .02" thick. With that kind of width I would be able to put a lot of tension on it and I think the depth would help the blade track straight.
> Thoughts?
> 
> - ErikF


To meet somewhere in the middle here, would a special jig in a miter saw work better, and would certaily be easier to make and safer to opperate. A backed saw set to run in a track, shouldn't walk, and although hand opperted, a man should be able to cut an awful lot of handles by hand.


----------



## terryR

Awesome to hear discussion on this…the toughest part of tote making for me.

I've thought a circular saw would cut the best slits over and over. Cannot imagine a bandsaw blade NOT drifting; even at 3" wide.

I certainly don't mass produce totes, but a hand held miter saw sounds the best option.

Would love to see how LN does it!


----------



## summerfi

Disston used a thin circular saw for cutting handle slots. That's how they were able to set the round heel end of a D-8 blade back so far into the handle. I've never seen a picture or much information about it though.


----------



## Brit

> Awesome to hear discussion on this…the toughest part of tote making for me.
> 
> - terryR


Just channel the force. Remember, if you don't think you can't, you can.


----------



## ErikF

A miter setup- genius. Thanks bob!


----------



## summerfi

Credit goes to Don for the miter idea. Let us know how it works Erik!


----------



## DLK

> A miter setup- genius. Thanks bob!
> 
> - ErikF


Please post the jig when you get it made. (Although I think we can all imagine what it may look like.)


----------



## Wally331

Erik, why not make a slitting cutter of your own, you already have the saw steel, just cut your steel into the desired diameter and make an indexing jig to use with your retoother, you can have the teeth as fine or coarse as you like, and because its spring steel you can set them just like a handsaw. Mill up a quick arbor and run it in your vertical mill.


----------



## ToddJB

> (Although I think we can all imagine what it may look like.)
> 
> - Combo Prof


Yep, likely something like this:


----------



## DLK

^Well I think thats the deluxe version, a little fancy for my taste.


----------



## summerfi

I've just finished a new saw till. You can read my project writeup here.


----------



## DanKrager

That's a piece of heirloom furniture, Bob. I hope that is either in the living room or in the bedroom…!

DanK


----------



## terryR

Wow!
A till worthy of a BobSaw!!!

pardon my drool….


----------



## putty

Stunning, just Stunning!!


----------



## Mosquito

Wow.

That is all.


----------



## byerbyer

Wow is right.

Great job Summerfi


----------



## Tim457

That is absolutely amazing, Bob. Befitting of the great saws within. I can't believe you made the leaded glass doors as well. And the etched beveled panel is a great touch.


----------



## duckmilk

I already commented on your project post, but, again, WOW.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Really, Bob's till would be totally lame if we hadn't suggested leaded glass on this very forum. Lawl.

I'm gonna get back to furniture making tomorrow. 'bout time yo!


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

King "Tutts" Saw Till, !!


----------



## theoldfart

^ so your suggesting we embalm Bob? Maybe put his entrails in dovetailed boxes? Please let him sharpen a couple of mitre saws for me first


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

Nope, we can embalm him, but then we can fight over his saw till. !!


----------



## summerfi

Hey now, wait a minute. Don't I get a say on this embalming idea?


----------



## TheFridge

Yall fight over the till. I sneak away with the saws. Yeah buddy


----------



## summerfi

Man, I'm not even dead yet and they're already dividing the spoils. :-(


----------



## theoldfart

^ what, your still breathing'? thought we took care of that!

Ah what the heck, you might as well stick around. We like your work and company and it would take too long to break in someone else


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

There are probably lots of Trap doors around it, I heard Hillary Clinton is in charge of Security.


----------



## richardwootton

Holy crap Bob, that's gorgeous!


----------



## ColonelTravis

> Holy crap Bob, that s gorgeous!
> 
> - richardwootton


This x 10 bazillion


----------



## chrisstef

Found the brother to my 14" brass backed moses eason tenon saw and finally got around to cleaning it up.


----------



## Brit

Looking good Stef.


----------



## summerfi

Nice Stef. You need a Moses handsaw to go with that collection.
Comparing the name stamps to pictures in Simon Barley's book, I'd say the steel back is about 1850 and the brass back about 1860.


----------



## summerfi

I've cleaned up a few small saws recently. The top three will be for sale. The bottom one is a Spear & Jackson that I'll retain.

Speaking of for sale, I've added several tools to the for sale page on my web site. Check it out.


----------



## summerfi

This is a 12" Drabble & Sanderson brass back that was part of last year's British saw lot purchase.

*Before*










*After*


----------



## chrisstef

thanks fellas. The steel back was in rough shape i still think i need to replate it. I agree on the handsaw bob and appreciate tge dating info.

I dig that top gents saw.


----------



## Brit

Lovely saws Bob. I like that Drabble and Sanderson. Reminds me of my 14" one which is stuck in a crate somewhere right now.


----------



## donwilwol

you guys use some kind of magic or something.


----------



## chrisstef

Ive done a bunch of saws and i agree Don. Them dudes use voodoo.


----------



## terryR

Definitely over the top!
A pure joy to behold!


----------



## RGtools




----------



## theoldfart

Ryan, I bought one of those ECE's after seeing yours. I still am shaky with it, more learning to be done.


----------



## theoldfart

Just won a Diston backsaw on the bay. Badged for Langdon Mitre Box but with a Northampton address! Split nut, it's an original, psyched.


----------



## chrisstef

Whats the length on it kevin? Love the langdon / disstons.


----------



## theoldfart

Stef, 20". I'm pretty sure it'll be the oldest Langdon I've seen. Filed at 11 ppi.


----------



## chrisstef

Nice! I cant say ive seen or heard of one with split nuts either. Good score buddy.


----------



## theoldfart

This is the saw









Split nuts









Spine stamp









I think its about 1871 to 1874.


----------



## summerfi

That is a cool saw Kevin.


----------



## chrisstef

A beauty!


----------



## theoldfart

I'm hoping it comes in as advertised. Tha Langdon place is within walking distance from my home.


----------



## CFrye

That looks like it will clean up nicely, Kevin!


----------



## Brit

Nice find Kevin. That saw's comin' home.


----------



## chrisstef

Looking at the back end of that saw it doesnt look like its ever been sharpened outside of the factory OF.


----------



## theoldfart

Stef, I missed that. Bonus points!


----------



## johnstoneb

Picked up a saw for $.75 Saturday. It was rusty as hell the tote was in a couple of pieces it was filed a a 7ppe rip which is what I wanted.. It had a brass Diamond Edge medallion. When I pulled the plate out of the evaporust a Vulcan etch showed up.


































I guess it is a little bit of a frankensaw. Need to make a tote for it. The tote that came with it was definitely not the original. Does any one have a Pease/Vulcan tote template for the period of this saw. (Hoping someone can date from the etch).


----------



## ToddJB

All, just had my first go at saw filing the other day. It was great fun. LJ Walden came over to my house for the day and showed me the basics.

First attempt at a rip saw. 5.5 ppi, 0 rake.










Cuts through pine great! I'll be putting more rake on the next couple for hardwood use.

Anywho, I'm looking to get my own set up, so if any of ya'll have items laying around not getting used I'd much rather give you money than an online shop.

Here's what I'm looking for:

Saw jointer
Veritas File holder
FILES!

So yeah, if you're just tripping over these items and would like to make some cash or trades, let me know - PMs welcome.


----------



## donwilwol

The saw jointer and file holder are pretty easy to make.


----------



## ToddJB

Assuredly you're not discouraging a guy from buying a tool, Don. You're enabler card is being reviewed


----------



## JayT

Nah, Don's enabling has just morphed from enabling purchases of small tools to encouraging you to start making your own, which eventually entails having to buy bigger tools, like a milling machine.

Sneaky, but effective.


----------



## summerfi

Very good for first try Todd. I don't know how you can do it left handed though.

You have a saw set and a vise? I don't use a jointer. Just holding the file in my hand works great.


----------



## ToddJB

Yep Bob, I have a couple vise from garage sales, and I picked up a NOS 42x at an antique mall about a month ago.

Walden explained me to be the biggest benefit of a jointer was that it held the file perpendicular with the plate, so if a saw has set your not filing one side more than another resulting in lower teeth on one side than the other.


----------



## daddywoofdawg

I see alot of videos lately that use the Japanese saw,Is it So much better than the western saw,or just The new thing?I know one is a pull the other a push,but why so many use it now?It's not like they're new been around foe hundreds of years.


----------



## GregTP

New to the site, though I have trolled the forums many times for different topics. I have been collecting old saws for only the past year or so and really all of the ones I have found me, not the other way around! Most of the ones in the rack are Disstons, or one of the off shoot companies. The tennon saw is a Henry Disston and Sons I got at the flea market for a dollar. Haven't done anything but sharpen it yet. I kind of like the way it looks now.


----------



## TheFridge

Nice.

Picked this up for 20$. Didn't need it since I already have 2 dovetail saw. I have a problem.


----------



## theoldfart

Nice Massachusetts saw there Fridge.
I have five Simonds saws and think they are great. The etches are absolute eye candy.


----------



## JayT

> Picked this up for 20$. Didn t need it since I already have 2 dovetail saw. I have a problem.
> 
> - TheFridge


Where's the problem, not enough space?


----------



## TheFridge

Oh I have space. I just didn't need it but I figured I need to have at least one saw with an etch. Or so I tell myself.


----------



## Brit

> I see alot of videos lately that use the Japanese saw,Is it So much better than the western saw,or just The new thing?I know one is a pull the other a push,but why so many use it now?It s not like they re new been around foe hundreds of years.
> 
> - daddywoofdawg


Japanese saws tend to be more affordable for new woodworkers. Some even come with replaceable blades. They aren't any better than western saws IMO and I wouldn't say they are 'the new thing'. Funny that you don't often see western woodworkers ripping an 8ft 8/4 maple board with a Japanese saw though, isn't it? People in the west use them more for fine joinery work and personally I think that has come about because people like David Barron use them with his magnetic dovetail guide.

They are not as robust as western saws and it is easier to bend or break a tooth. Some people also say that they are not as suitable as western saws for cutting western domestic hardwoods.

At the end of the day though, it all comes down to personal choice. They have both been used for centuries, so they obviously both work. I have some Japanese saws which I used to use all the time, but since I acquired my western saws, I haven't touched them once.


----------



## TheFridge

Picked this up too. Disston no 2 saw vise.


----------



## Tim457

> They are not as robust as western saws and it is easier to bend or break a tooth. Some people also say that they are not as suitable as western saws for cutting western domestic hardwoods.
> - Brit


Yeah Japanese woodworkers apparently favor Paulownia which is a rather soft wood that has nice stability.

I like the idea that Japanese saws that cut on the pull stroke can be made thinner which should reduce the kerf and make the cut go faster with less effort. I've never tried one though.

Good stuff Fridge.


----------



## johnstoneb

I have a dozuki that I got to do dovetails with and it does a good job on the rip cuts. I took all the teeth off it when I got enthusiastic on a long crosscut in red oak. I had to replace the blade. It works ok for ripping but you need to be gentle on crosscuts.


----------



## johnstoneb

double post


----------



## TobyC

> Lovely saws Bob. I like that Drabble and Sanderson. Reminds me of my 14" one which is stuck in a crate somewhere right now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Brit


Gorgeous!


----------



## matt97381

I had previously stated that I am partial to saws with all of their original patina. But after an eyeful of that, I may be inclined to change tack. Holy cow, that's dead sexy.

Finally got around to snapping a few photos of some of my (as yet unrestored) saws.

Here's my recently-acquired Spear & Jackson

as found










the stamp










and the unfortunately missing nuts. At least the medallion is there


----------



## matt97381

This one's probably my fave out of the humble collection. The only info I could find on it came from the Positive Rake website (isn't that the work of someone in our present company? I need to give him/her credit). The saw mentioned there belongs to one Mike Stemple who curates an astounding collection in the state of Ohio. (Would Mike also happen to be in present company?)

The maker is one T. W. I. Groves out of Springfield, Mass circa 1830s.










the stamp










the lovely handle with one minor flaw










here's the one featured on Positive Rake. Note the handle cracked in the same location










Side note: although my photo utterly fails to show it, I believe that the stamp actually says T, (comma) W.I. (period period) Groves.


----------



## theoldfart

I think the saw says Spring Steel, though the address maybe Chicopee
Falls, a town next to Sprngfield.


----------



## Brit

> I had previously stated that I am partial to saws with all of their original patina. But after an eyeful of that, I may be inclined to change tack. Holy cow, that s dead sexy.
> 
> Finally got around to snapping a few photos of some of my (as yet unrestored) saws.
> 
> Here s my recently-acquired Spear & Jackson
> 
> as found
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the stamp
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and the unfortunately missing nuts. At least the medallion is there
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - matt97381


Congrats on acquiring some lovely saws Matt. My S&J has a special place in my heart because it was the first vintage saw that I acquired and was responsible for me finding out more about saws and their history.


----------



## matt97381

Oldfart, I hadn't put two and two together. I wonder if the stamp on Mr Stemple's saw is a bit more worn, leading him to interpret "spring steel" as "Springfield". I would dearly love to find more info on the maker. I think my only hope would be to dig into local municipal archives / records.

Brit, thank you! I can only say that I am honored to share the experience with you.


----------



## theoldfart

Matt, I grew up in Springfield and live nearby now. There were a number of tool making companies three over the past 200 years. I'll see what I can dig up. I would research Chicopee Falls as well.


----------



## matt97381

Wow oldfart, thank you kindly! Will be researching when I get home from work this evening.


----------



## theoldfart

Matt, found this

It was published in Boston in 1839. So I think I need to revise my comment to be they are from Springfield Mass and the company name is Chicopee Falls Company. Note they now spell the town as Chicopee, I think the document has the company name misspelled.


----------



## kwigly

Matt, there was an Englishman named Groves who was the first foreman at the Worrall & Co saw factory in New York in the 1830s
see https://books.google.ca/books?id=lKM-AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA479&lpg=PA479&dq=New+York++%22Worrall+%26+Co%22+Elm+street+groves&source=bl&ots=pweN1unG2z&sig=LIy5QEEHtp01QBUizoorhbcpo2s&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAGoVChMIwqDs_dXoyAIVyFo-Ch3gvQOZ#v=onepage&q=New%20York%20%20%22Worrall%20%26%20Co%22%20Elm%20street%20groves&f=false
He's listed as W I T G Groves in this 1890 article on the first sawmakers in America, but may actually be the same person as your T,W.I. Groves


----------



## summerfi

Matt, that Groves saw is a real treasure. I tried doing a little research, but didn't come up with anything not mentioned above. It does appear there was a connection of some sort with the British saw maker Richard Groves. Perhaps a relative and/or manager of an American branch of the company.


----------



## theoldfart

I did find a W Groves, brass founder, who was in the Springfield census in 1857.


----------



## theoldfart

Aw heck I have a Groves too,well actually a Groves/Summerfield. Bottom saw









Bob did the restore on the Biggins (top saw)as well!


----------



## summerfi

Dang nice looking saws, Kevin. ;-)


----------



## theoldfart

Yea, i thought so too! Still my favorites.


----------



## matt97381

Wow, wow, WOW, you guys. Thank you. Somehow in my googling I have failed to take much notice of Google books. Duh!

Fascinating stuff.

I got the Groves / Chicopee saw as part of a random pile of six saws, all unearthed at a nearby ratty little second-hand store, tended by a less-than-wonderful smelling (but pleasant enough) gentleman who ventured thirty dollars for the lot. I countered twenty five and the deal was sealed. I do believe I would like to go see that man again.


----------



## Claurence006

Brit your last catch is amazing. Do you have an idea of the year of production ?


----------



## RGtools

> Ryan, I bought one of those ECE s after seeing yours. I still am shaky with it, more learning to be done.
> 
> - theoldfart


What seems to be your issue with it? Perhaps I can help, bow saws are definitely the most finicky of the bunch, but when they are dialed in…sweetness incarnate.


----------



## kwigly

Matt,
If you google "chicopee falls co" you find it was incorporated in 1835, described as "Manufacturers in General of Machinery, Saws, Fire-arms & Hardware", and all assets were purchased by the Ames Manufacturing Co in 1841.
So your TWI Groves saw likely dates from 1835-1941


----------



## Brit

> Brit your last catch is amazing. Do you have an idea of the year of production ?
> 
> - Laurence Carlier


Hi Laurence, if you are referring to the Spear and Jackson I posted above, I don't really have any idea I'm afraid. I want to say mid 19th century, but I have nothing to back that up other than my gut. Maybe Bob could enlighten us if it is in one of his saw reference books.


----------



## Brit

On another note, what a joy it is to see fellow addicts googling the history of saws on both sides of the pond. )


----------



## theoldfart

Ryan, I'll get back to you on the bow saw. I've been looking at Michael Dunbars stuff about using them.


----------



## theoldfart

kwigly, did you mean 1835-1841?


----------



## summerfi

> I want to say mid 19th century, but I have nothing to back that up other than my gut. Maybe Bob could enlighten us if it is in one of his saw reference books.
> 
> - Brit


Andy, the stamp on your S&J is an exact match for an image dated 1850 in Simon Barley's book (I found your stamp in the video on your blog). The key to identification is the lower case lettering in "Sheffield". Later saws had all capitals.


----------



## Brit

Thanks Bob. I guess I should trust my gut more in future. )


----------



## kwigly

Yes,
I meant to type 1835-1841 
(I'm in the wrong century, ...again)


----------



## matt97381

Hey kwigly, thanks for the heads up. Just like that, I have all the info I was looking for. You people rock. High fives all around


----------



## johnstoneb

Got the tote finished for the .75 cent Vulcan I found. Found a Harvey Peace template on line that the bolt pattern was very close used it. I had a maple scrap that was big enough.


----------



## donwilwol

Here is to hittin the like button Bruce. Nice !


----------



## summerfi

Great job Bruce. That handle looks niiice!


----------



## theoldfart

Well, my new sweet saw showed up finally( USPS had a few issues!).









Medallion









, stamp









, split nuts









It is sharp!


----------



## summerfi

Sweet saw Kevin. 1871-75?


----------



## theoldfart

I think so. Langdon closed their Northampton shop after a flood in 1874 so I'm thinking 1871 to 1873. Someday I'll find the original Langdon box to go with it. In the meantime it will live in the Justus Traut box!

One question I have is is it a 4 or a 7? It is an Apple handle.


----------



## chrisstef

A beaute kevin.


----------



## Tim457

That is one awesome saw, Kevin. 
From here: http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/backsawpage.html
Says:
"Disston made miterbox saws throughout the company's history. The model number, if it was shown on the particular saw's etch, was No. 4."

The page doesn't show any mitrebox saws from anything before the 1890 catalog that I can see, so send the author a line, I bet he would like some pictures.


----------



## theoldfart

Could not get a good pic of the etch, looks much better in person


----------



## jim_hanna

I was recently bidding on an e-bay item, was the highest bidder at the time, and decided to increase the maximum I was prepared to pay.

When I had upped my limit I was surprised to see that while I was still high bidder and the price remained the same, the number of bids made which is visible on screen to all buyers, had been increased by one.

The e-bay policy of increasing the number of bids made, visible on screen to all buyers, when the top bidder increases their maximum limit is an invitation for the seller to shill bid.

It seems logical that a seller would keep an eye on his listings. When the bids go up and the price stays the same the seller knows that the top bidder is willing to pay more and therefore it is safe for the seller to bid one further increment higher to push up the price.

Just happened to me.

I was bidding on some chisels - decided after some thought that they were worth more to me than I'd previously bid and upped my maximum limit. Shortly after a new buyer with no previous purchases visible (all the other bidders had the number of their previous purchases against their username) upped the price by one increment.

In the end it didn't matter since other bidders subsequently drove the price higher but I still won.

However I see no reason why the e-bay software records an increase in the maximum limit to be bid as an actual bid and then displays this increase in bids to other buyers.

The e-bay customer service interface seems designed to deter communication, all the forms limit the number of characters and it's impossible to write as I'm doing here.


----------



## DLK

So I won an e-bay auction today and I too was surprised when I reviewed the bidding. But it was correct.In my case the bid was at say $50 and at the last moment I put in a max bid of $60. When I reviewed the bidding there were two bids $51 and $52 before my winning bid of $53, both by the same bidder. How can that be? Well what happened is that this bidder had his max bid of $52 in before my max bid of $60. Therefore all his lower bids count before my bids can begin. Thus the software increments his bid until he maxes out before my bidding gets started. Its different then how live auctions work. I'm slowly figuring this out and finally won my first auction today, where there was competition.


----------



## DanKrager

Jim, I know what you are saying. There is a process called sniping that ebay itself "permits". You've been using it, but here's a suggestion to make it more effective and it bypasses that pesky "extra" post revealing your change of heart. There is third party sniping software available, but I think ebay can detect and discourages that. 
If there is an object that I want, I won't disturb it with any bids until the last 3 seconds or less, given normal Internet performance. I prepare an automatic bid that is as high as I'm prepared to go and place that just 3 seconds before expiration. If the bid exceeds my maximum at 3 seconds, I let it go. It's not very effective unless I am willing to pay a good deal more than the highest bid at 3 seconds because 3 seconds is a long time for an automatic bid to escalate. I have watched with fascination as a bidder tries to out do the ebay software and fails every time. I have also watched my bid fail after the expiration because someone placed an autobid higher than mine at almost the same time or later. Auctions that expire during peak "watch times" like Sunday afternoon are harder to win than those that expire at say 2am Thursday morning. 
It's the equivalent to alerting the estate auctioneer before the item to sell is approached that I have a strong interest and watch me before you close on that particular item. They have phenomenal memories and it's a very successful strategy.
DanK


----------



## theoldfart

^my process to a T. I also set up a browser bookmark to watch items, I never set a "watch"


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

It's kind of like Trapping, and the trap is triggered by a string and you have to give it a yank at just the right moment. If you pull the string to early the Prey will Watch and tip up the trap and reach underneath and skedaddle off with the bait.


----------



## theoldfart

Sometimes on Ebay I feel like the bait!


----------



## DLK

I won my auction by exactly the method Dan described, which I researched on the web to be the best method. Although I entered in I think the last 20 or 10 seconds with a bid and not the last 3. My win was early this sunday morning 9am and perhaps the time change helped. (Kevin this was for the 79)

Why are we discussing this in the Saw thread?


----------



## theoldfart

Stream of conscious thing I guess! Jim-Hana started it, not my fault. I'm blameless ( clueless as well)

Speaking of saws, did I mention I have too many?


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

How manystomany !? They don't eat anything and once you get them cleaned and groomed behind the ears they just sit their turn to be used or admired. The generations to come will thank us for giving them a good home.


----------



## theoldfart

Ok, guess the one i got today will be alright. An EC Atkins 6pt rip, not much life left.


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

Give it some CPR. Kevin !


----------



## TheFridge

I would probably have the same problem if the oldies but goodies were readily available down south. Not exactly old tool heaven by any stretch and what's available commands a premium. Super jealous.


----------



## TheFridge

so, I'm in the middle of something (crosscuts on a miter box) and would gratefully appreciate some sharpening advice. I understand what the teeth of a crosscut and rip saw do when they cut. Shear and chisel respectively.

On a rip you sharpen the back of a tooth? but on a crosscut you sharpen the front while the back of the file sharpens the reverse tooth so the saw cuts on the pull stroke? I understand rake and fleam but don't understand the angles and how they affect cuts in hard wood (or very hard wood) vs soft woods.

Any insight would be appreciated. Thanks.

I realize I could search around for answers but I'd prefer to go straight to the horses mouth. Thanks again in advance.


----------



## DLK

What replacement coping saw blades do you buy for your "vintage" coping saw? (I tried to read the web on this but I'm a little confused.) Did Olson buy Zona? Are the Olson blades good enough?


----------



## ToddJB

I need some ID assistance on two different saws.

Saw #1










Nib broke off, a couple of teeth broken too. Missing medallion. But it's the only saw I have that was in the family, so I'd love to figure this one out.










The etch is VERY faint even after bluing session.

Here's my guess: Keen Kutter

The etch i can see is an oval. I can make out 2 E's and a scripty R at the end with STEEL underneath it.

This is my guess based on the smudgings










Any guesses A: if it is a KK, or something else, and B: do you know what the medallion should look like.

Saw #2

Any guesses on this wood species?



















It's on a post war Jackson backsaw that I'm reshaping the handle.


----------



## chrisstef

Top saw looks like a D8 to me but hard to say.

Keen Kutter might be it. Its not a disston pattern handle. That V in the grip and circular notch up top would be good identifiers to go off of on a web search. I typically see that "V" on earlier disston backsaws. It almost looks Richardson.

Ill venture to guess qs beech on the handle. I think I see some flecking. Could be apple too but it seems a little light to me.


----------



## TobyC

Apple

(I guess it's beech!)

The ones I've seen looked like this….


----------



## summerfi

Todd, I don't believe saw #1 is a Keen Kutter. The KK's I've worked on had the medallion in the lower screw hole and an etch that looked like the second pic below.



















Edit: Toby beat me to the etch!

The one Jackson I worked on had a beech handle, and I suspect that's what you have. If you can see thin rays in the end grain then it is beech.


----------



## ToddJB

I'll have to see what I can do about finding some small pieces for patching.

Toby and Bob, those are the logos I've seen, as well. My only guess for Keen Kutter was based upon the little bit of the etch I can make out. It 100% ends with an R, is in a oval shape, and there appears to be an EE towards the beginning of the word(s).


----------



## summerfi

Can you post a pic of the etch? That might help.


----------



## TobyC

+1


----------



## johnstoneb

Here is a Harvey Peace #40 handle pattern that looks close to your handle. Supposedly Harvey Peace used beech for his handles.

https://www.wenzloffandsons.com/images/patterns/handsaws/harvey_peace_no_40.pdf

Looking at your handle again I don't think it is a Peace.


----------



## chrisstef

Fridge - in either situation you're filing both the back of a tooth and the front of a tooth at the same time. On a crosscut, you file the front of the tooth leaning away from you and the back of the tooth leaning towards you in one pass. Then you flip it around and do the same thing on the reverse side because you skip a tooth when filing. They both cut on the push stroke.

As to the angle ….on rip saws an aggressive rake, say 0 degrees, is better suited for softwoods while a less aggressive rake, say 5 degrees, is easier on hardwoods. Same principal applies for the rake of a crosscut saw. 12 degrees rake would be more aggressive than a 20 degree rake. All though a less aggressive rake will give you a cleaner cut. So on your miter saw I would shoot for a less aggressive rake, 15 degrees, and a fleam of 25 degrees to obtain a clean cut with minimal blow out on the back side.

To boil it down, the way I understand it is:

Rip saws: Rake
0 degree rake - very aggressive - good in softwoods
5 degrees rake - less aggressive - good for softwood and hardwood.
7-10 degrees rake - slow cutting in hardwood - minimal blow out

Xcut saws: Rake
10 degrees rake - very aggressive - good for softwood and hardwood in breaking down stock
15 degrees rake - less aggressive - good for softwood and hardwood for finish cuts.

Xcut saws - Fleam = smoothness of cuts

I typically file with 25 degress of fleam. I haven't delved into how changing that angle responds to the smoothness of cuts but maybe someone could fill in my blanks here. The mini chart I gave is the way ive seen things and may not be all that accurate. Just a rookie tryin to help out.


----------



## ToddJB

I'll see if I can get it to show up on camera. I doubt I can.


----------



## chrisstef

Play with the edit finishes on your phone to get it to show up better Todd.


----------



## ToddJB

This Spier and Co. No 12 handle looks dang close. Though the etch isn't close.










Found here: http://www.wkfinetools.com/hUS-saws/MSW-WMC/tools/22-Spier&Co-Weir/Spier&Co-01.asp


----------



## TobyC

You can do it!

"I think I can, I think I can."


----------



## jmartel

The handle does look a lot like the beech I've been working with lately.


----------



## donwilwol

This is an etch from my keen kutter book










I believe the style like Bob shows didn't come out until about 1905.


----------



## ToddJB

That's getting closer, Don!

Mine is the oval like that, but Keen Kutter appears to go straight across.


----------



## donwilwol

nothing like proving myself wrong!!


----------



## chrisstef

Any of these look closer?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b7/Keenkutterlogos1.jpg


----------



## donwilwol

its probably this one.










http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?151311-Keen-Kutter-Medallion


----------



## ToddJB

THAT'S IT DON!

Any more info?


----------



## donwilwol

I posted the link i got it from, but i didn't see much to help.


----------



## ToddJB

Google-fu is strong with you today, Yoda. The guys comment with the etch said he was confident his came from the Richardson factory, like Stef guessed. But unfortunately his was missing the medallion. Trying to find an original replacement might be a lost cause.


----------



## ToddJB

I PMed the guy with that etch to see if he's ran across any more info over the last 5 years.


----------



## GregTP

Last week I had posted a picture of this old Henry Disston and Sons tennon saw I picked up. At the time, I had said I liked the way it looked old…and then…I kept seeing everyone's pretty saws so I started the restoration that night. Before and after


----------



## putty

Nice work Greg, I love how that Applewood pops with a good finish


----------



## summerfi

Looks great Greg.


----------



## chrisstef

Old school sexy, greg. Like a pin up.


----------



## MNclone

What's the best way to straighten the blade on a backsaw?
Do I just take a hammer to the convex side on an anvil?


----------



## chrisstef

Try resetting the spine first clone. It might have just slipped a bit.


----------



## TheFridge

Thanks stef. I took a pic for future reference so I now have in my repertoire. I really just wanted to say repertoire. But thanks again bud.


----------



## tshiker

I just got this saw in a lot of four. Disston No 12, 22", 12 ppi. Made for Hodge and Homer Co Chicago. Just a little work with some 600 grit sandpaper and she shines like new!


----------



## MNclone

> Try resetting the spine first clone. It might have just slipped a bit.
> 
> - chrisstef


It is more of a little kink. Most of the plate is straight, but it has a spot down in the 1/2" closest to the teeth.


----------



## tshiker

Judging from the medallion and using the wonderful and greatly appreciated www.disstonianinstitute.com I think it's circa 1888 -1896. Not too bad for a saw built at least 120 years ago.


----------



## summerfi

That's a very nice saw tshiker. The handle looks nearly perfect.


----------



## chrisstef

A curious little saw. 13" long and (an ugly) 10 ppi. Spear and jackson.

















Edit. Grr. Pics later. Phone issues.


----------



## chrisstef




----------



## summerfi

Cute little saw with a very nice handle Stef. Was that a local pickup?


----------



## putty

That's nice Stef, has it been cut down sometime in its life?


----------



## chrisstef

It was actually an ebay mistake from a while back. Just now getting around to it.

Putty - that was my initial thought but after working on it, i think it may not have been. Its an odd ball though.

Was it smitty who found some info on a "table" saw or was it you bob?


----------



## bandit571

This saw was from Cleveland , OH. Something called "ClearCut" 









10ppi skewback, never had it sharpened back up…









saw cuts for dovetails, saw still cuts quite fast and straight. Noticed while adding a bit of candle wax, this saw will SING to ya. 









Not too bad a saw?


----------



## summerfi

> Was it smitty who found some info on a "table" saw or was it you bob?
> 
> - chrisstef


Well it was both I guess. Here is a table saw I made for Smitty.










And here is my little S&J that's about the same size as yours.


----------



## chrisstef

Ahh. Thats right bob. Now i remember that beauty. What do you suppose a saw of this size was catered towards? Utility? Small tool box saw?

Most likely ill file it xcut and give it to my lil buddy when hes ready to handle sharp tools.


----------



## summerfi

In the case of my little S&J, I'm pretty sure it was once a panel saw that got filed down and shortened over time. That may be the case with yours too. Is your name stamp centered on the blade, or more towards the toe end?


----------



## chrisstef

More towards the toe end Bob. And that rounded nose too …. It appears to be roughly in the same spot as yours.


----------



## duckmilk

Nice purty handle on it Stef. I'd like to find a nice 14 - 16"er for small jobs, especially those where a back saw can't be used. Cutting the wall studs to fit windows in my shop walls is the perfect use for a small saw like that.










Like what I've done above. Cutting the studs that close to the metal walls is difficult. I have to mark it carefully and then cut from both sides.


----------



## bandit571

A Question for Bob:
That panel saw I was using last night?









Ever hear tell of a brand called "ClearCut"? I tracked the seller down to a hardware supply company up in Cleveland,OH. Plate has a LOT of etch going on, too. Feller that ran the company even has his signiture etched into it. About 20" long, skew back, 10 ppi. medallion is a WS with an eagle. The plate will RING when thumbed, or even just waxed. Brass hardware. Lots of carving. Some sort of fancy pants saw?









Cutting pins for dovetails with it. Cuts fast, and very straight. Even with me operating the saw, no less. I haven't even tried to sharpen this one, either. Makes a lot of fine sawdust..









Brand name is "Clear Cut" as etched into the saw plate….?


----------



## summerfi

I think it's a hardware store brand saw, Bandit, made by one of the major manufacturers like Disston or Atkins. The handle looks Atkins to me. In fact, the saw looks a lot like this Atkins No. 48.


----------



## bandit571

Could be….I know I like the fit of the handle. Has that "Atkins" feel to it. Mine has a lot more etches to it, though. I'll have to go look again, to see which Geo. signed his name on it.

Thanks, Bob!


----------



## Razz80

Hello all,
Another user suggested I post this here. I have a saw that I can't find any information on. It has an etch I've not seen before. I'm hoping someone out there can help me out. The picture of the etch isn't the best but I'm just starting to clean it off. After removing the handle I noticed a "4H" on the top of the blade under the handle. After I cleaned off the medallion I was able to see that is has "Pat. Dec. 31 1867"; which is Washbourne's patent. I'm thinking it might date to between 1867-1881 presuming the company would not want to pay the royalties for use of the patent after 81. But I'm new at this and am not really sure at all. I have not been able to find anything about the company other than the successor company might be Hall & Knight Co. ...little else.

Etch:
Top line: Owen & Hall
Center: Cast Steel Warranted
Bottom line: Lewiston, ME





































Thanks,
Brendan


----------



## duckmilk

Nice Brendan. It looks like it will clean up nicely. What is the TPI and length? Hope someone can help you with the history.


----------



## summerfi

Hi Brendan. Your saw is what is known as a hardware store saw, i.e. it was made by one of the major saw manufacturers of the day, etched with a custom store brand etch, and sold to the hardware store for resale to customers. It is hard to say who actually made the saw, but it is clear that it was made for Owen & Hall Hardware of Lewiston, ME. Owen & Hall was in business from 1876 to 1889. Prior to that the store was known as Owen & Little. After that it was known as Hall & Knight as you discovered. So your saw must have been made between 1876 and 1889. It was common for saw manufacturers to put Warranted Superior medallions on saws they made for hardware stores, rather than their normal company medallion. I don't know what the 4H stamp means. It is possible the H stands for hardware, but that is just speculation. Disston commonly stamped letters and numbers under their handles, so it wouldn't surprise me if your saw was made by Disston. I'm not sure if other manufacturers did likewise. How about posting a picture of the whole saw?


----------



## johnstoneb

That handle appears to be the shape of this template for A Disston #7.

https://www.wenzloffandsons.com/images/patterns/handsaws/disston_7_panel.pdf


----------



## terryR

Finally got the coco handle on my fret saw…Thanks, Red!


----------



## BigRedKnothead

^Nice Terry. I almost forgot I made that for you;-)


----------



## warrenkicker

Spent about $14 on a new local auction site for a pile of saws. Pictures showed a couple of interesting items. There is a Disston 100 and 120 in there in good shape. Then there is a huge iron handle beast. 29.5" long and filed 4.5 tpi rip. There is also a D-8 and a "nice" Stanley plastic handle.


----------



## summerfi

Nice haul Warren. That should keep you busy for awhile. The big iron handled saw is a docking saw, made for course work in rough field conditions. Disston made one similar that they called a mine saw. Some ice saws are similar but have even courser teeth.


----------



## CL810

Well here is a $5 find that has a Harvey Peace medallion and a variety of other saw nuts. No etch visible. Saw blade is good. Looks bad but still has its twang. Very, very minor pitting. Blade reasonably sharp, 5 strokes in 3/4 walnut to cut just over 1". 5 ppi rip.

What do you guys think, anyway of tellling if it is a Harvey Peace?


----------



## summerfi

Here's some info on the different models of Peace saws. I don't see one that exactly matches the handle profile, but yours could be a later version.

http://www.hyperkitten.com/tools/hwpeace/saws/handsaws.php


----------



## planepassion

CL, sharpen you Peace saw up. May it cut as well for you as mine does for me. I really like the steel of my Peace saw.


----------



## CL810

Thanks Bob. I concur. Thanks Brad, I'm feeling real good about the saw. Steel is very strong, better than other vintage saws I own.


----------



## Razz80

Thanks for the replies everyone; the information about Owen & Hall Hardware is just what I was looking for. Apologies for the delay in responding over the weekend. I started cleaning it up but put it back together for a full picture. I'll post another one once I'm done with it.




























Brendan


----------



## ToddJB

Looking good. Is the front of the tooth line broken off?


----------



## Razz80

Yeah, unfortunately it's broken off.


----------



## kwigly

Brendan, broken-end saws give you an opportunity to re-shape to any form you fancy
..e.g. plain, curvy, re-curve, or nippley ….


----------



## MNclone

I sharpened a saw for the first time last night. It was easier and quicker than I expected. Unfortunately I haven't come across a saw set yet in my rust hunting adventures. It looks like I may be heading to eBay for one. Is there anything in specific that I should be looking for? Right now I'm mainly using back saws with a higher tooth count.


----------



## summerfi

The Stanley 42X is the gold standard of saw sets if you can get one that's not worn out. The thing with most saw sets is that they are made for handsaws with coarser teeth, and the hammer (the part that presses against the tooth) is too wide for fine-pitched teeth like on dovetail saws. Some people grind the hammer down narrower. The blue Somax set is made for finer teeth and works well. It's anvil is a little soft and won't last forever, but will do fine if you aren't setting a ton of saws. The gold Somax is made for larger teeth. Somax sets are available new from Lee Valley, Highland Woodworking, and many other sources.


----------



## donwilwol

I have a 42 for sale if that's the route you decide to go.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

We all need one of these…

http://www.jimbodetools.com/Rare-Aubin-s-Patent-Box-Joint-Back-Saw-For-Making-Finger-Joints-p46745.html










Bob, can you build it? ;-)


----------



## CFrye

That is cool, Smitty! Waiting for Bob's answer…


----------



## summerfi

I'll make you one and beat Bode's price by 5%. Deal?


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Yours would be the better saw, too.


----------



## Brit

That's a pretty cool saw and it wouldn't take much to turn an old hacksaw into a finger jointing saw.


----------



## daddywoofdawg

anyone have a idea about who and when about this saw,I was asked if I knew anything about it,the London pattern handle throws me.

! http://i491.photobucket.com/albums/rr279/daddywoofdawg/saw.jpg!


----------



## daddywoofdawg




----------



## summerfi

This is the saw that is currently being discussed on Facebook. I believe it is British. The maker could only be determined if a name stamp can be found. British saws with a London pattern handle and 3 (instead of 4) screws can either be, 1) early, i.e. late 18th or early 19th century, or 2) cheap saws made late 19th or early 20th century. The London handle and fewer screws were ways to save costs on these later saws. It is hard to say from the pictures which category this saw fits into. I would post it on backsaw.net and ask the British collectors there to weigh in on it.


----------



## Brit

No idea, but I can't help thinking I've seen that saw before somewhere or at least one very similar to that. Where are the photos from?


----------



## Brit

I just remembered where I thought I saw it, but it isn't the same make of saw. Similar though.
http://www.oldtools.co.uk/home/1810-blythe-hand-saw-c-1860.html


----------



## daddywoofdawg

> No idea, but I can t help thinking I ve seen that saw before somewhere or at least one very similar to that. Where are the photos from?
> 
> - Brit


the question was asked on FB,Thought I would ask over here too,see if I could help out.


----------



## summerfi

Here's a 12" table saw (aka grafting saw) that I just finished up for a client in Illinois. The handle is walnut.


----------



## theoldfart

Sure is purdy Bob! Clocked split (OCD) nuts too. 

I really do like the walnut handle.


----------



## JayT

Looks awesome, Bob.

One stupid question. Is there a reason for the etch to be parallel to the top line instead of parallel to the tooth line?


----------



## JayT

And we all know that Bob works miracles on saws, but here is further proof. Sent him a Disston No 12 that I picked up a little over a month ago to be reworked.

Here's what I sent him:










and here's what I got back:










Fabulous work. Had him retooth and sharpen it to 10ppi crosscut for use with hardwoods. Can't wait to use it.


----------



## summerfi

Not a stupid question at all Jay. Normally the etch would be parallel to the toothline, but on these small saws I just thought it looked better the other way. That's the only reason.


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

Five Star job on that saw Bob, nice figure in the Walnut.


----------



## chrisstef

Bobie wan kenobi at it again. Unreal.


----------



## racerglen

2 X Stef !


----------



## ToddJB

> Bobie wan kenobi at it again. Unreal.
> 
> - chrisstef


----------



## terryR

Flawless work, Bob.
Classy tote.

Love the No.12 as well, gorgeous workhorse with the perfect amount of patina.

Are you in town long? I have a Tyzack backsaw that gets abused by parting everything off the lathe and needs some file work.


----------



## summerfi

I'm in town for the winter Terry. Send that Tyzack on over.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

^ Love that table saw. Bob! And I just might send you a couple of Cincinnati Saw Co. backsaws to re-wicker. They're toolchest saws that aren't used because, well, because they don't cut worth a d*amn. Their larger brother was sharpened by Mark Harrell a few years ago, and is still a monster performer. These small ones (10" and 12") need a bit of Montana TLC.


----------



## summerfi

Send 'em my way Smitty. I'll fix ya up.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

I'll work up a suitable (re-usable) shipping vessel and let you know when they're on the way!


----------



## summerfi

You can take the handles off if you want. That usually saves a bit on shipping.


----------



## putty

Good work Bob, I have a few backsaws to send you too!!

Question, Do you take the handles off backsaws to sharpen? The reason I ask, is that I had a screw spin while tightening, I put a dab of epoxy under the head to hold it.


----------



## summerfi

If the saw has a handle, I won't remove it for sharpening. However, if an owner wants to remove the handle to save on shipping, that's great too.


----------



## TheFridge

This thing here


----------



## summerfi




----------



## TheFridge

Aside from the novelty of it it's not worth anywhere near 80$ is it?


----------



## summerfi

A quick search of ones that sold on ebay shows a price range of $13 to $30.


----------



## racerglen

I have one, think the production run was 1961 to '66 with a quote somewhere terming it a saw that "Henry Disston would roll over in his grave to see " or something like that..very uncomfortable handle, poor ballance..


----------



## ColonelTravis

I got the Blackburn carcase saw kit, almost done making a handle for it. The saw plate is the thinnest one I've got, which is great for fine crosscuts, but I've run into a problem - I don't have a blade that thin to cut a slot in the handle.

Any suggestions?


----------



## daddywoofdawg

ColonelTravis: use the blade to cut the handle.


----------



## ColonelTravis

Blade isn't sharpened, which is why I wasn't thinking to use it but I can sharpen the blade first.
Pretend I didn't ask this question.


----------



## TheFridge

Derp. I think you had a romo moment. Or ro-moment if you like combining words.


----------



## ToddJB

Anyone want to share their process for making replacement bolts for split nuts? Make the nut part seems easy enough, but the bolt I'd like to see.

I was think just threading brass through a piece of flat stock and soldering it, but would be afraid you would be able to see where the thread part comes through the head even after peening.

I'm asking cause I stripped two bolts while removing them.


----------



## summerfi

Todd, in this blog I briefly describe my process for making saw screws. If that doesn't answer your questions let me know and I'll go into more detail. You could always buy them though. They're available now from 3 or 4 sources.


----------



## ToddJB

Bob that helps a bunch. That was what I had in mind, but didn't know how strong it would be unless the thread went all the way through. Good to know that you're pleased with its strength.


----------



## summerfi

Yeah, the strength doesn't seem to be an issue. It's actually pretty strong without the solder, but there's a lot of surface for solder to bond to, which makes it quite strong.

A couple tips not mentioned in the blog: I drill and tap the hole in the end of the brass rod deep enough to make both the screw head and the nut at the same time. I slice off an 1/8" segment and that becomes the nut. Then I slice off a approx 3/16" segment and that becomes the head. I use a bottoming tap to finish the threads so the threads go all the way to a square bottom. I typically shoot for having about 2 threads in the head. For cutting the brass rod I use a short thin hacksaw blade that fits in a coping saw. I buy these at ACE.


----------



## ToddJB

Great info. Bottoming tap, huh? The taper depth was my concern.


----------



## daddywoofdawg

I have a disability that keeps me from gripping a round type handle on a saw,so I'm looking for a pistol/closed handle type of dovetail saw,but all I see on the bay is round handled dovetail (gent)saws or pistol grip "tenon" saws.what is the difference between the two?can you cut good dovetails with a tenon saw or are there pistol grip type dovetail saws?


----------



## summerfi

The teeth per inch, blade thickness, and overall size of a saw has more to do with whether it is suitable as a dovetail saw than does the handle shape. Many old dovetail saws had open handle "pistol grip" type handles. Disston also made 8" and 10" dovetail saws with closed handles. Some people who sell saws on ebay call any backsaw a "tenon saw", whether it is configured for tenons or not. I wouldn't hesitate to cut dovetails with any backsaw of 12" or less length if the teeth are properly configured, i.e. 14 or greater ppi filed rip.

Veritas makes a 15 ppi/14 tpi open handle 9-1/4" dovetail saw that should do a good job.


----------



## CFrye

DWD, Lee Valley has both. 


















Edit: Bob types faster than I


----------



## bandit571

This is what I mainly use for dovetails..









Except this No.4 clone has 9ppi, but was filed rip. Has become the "go-to" in the shop, when it is in the shop…...

Somedays it seems as though it goes out on "assignment"....


----------



## daddywoofdawg

Anyone recommend a saw sharping service that I could send a back-saw to, to have set,changed to a rip tooth and sharpened? there is know one around me,and I don't want to do it myself yet.I plan on mailing it,so anywhere in the us.


----------



## ToddJB

If Bob's taken work right now I'd go to him, Daddy


----------



## daddywoofdawg

bob who? I'll PM him


----------



## CFrye

Bob, summerfi


----------



## daddywoofdawg

thanks Cfrye


----------



## terryR

Guess I should apologize for all the bad things I've said about this LN Panel Saw. It's just not any good at cutting panels in my hands…










However, I discovered it excels at hogging open a kerf already established by a small DT saw, and extending it! I kept two fingers from my left hand against the saw plate during the cuts, and had no problems with it bending when I pushed too forcefully.

Maybe I'm just learning how to use it after a few years! 

Big, bad 16" Backsaw is dull…I have a feeling Bob may be busy during December?


----------



## summerfi

Now I've seen it all. Terry is apologizing to a saw! LOL

Send yer saws this way boys. I've got 3 saws to make on commission at the moment, but there's always time to fit in a sharpening job.


----------



## terryR

LOL!


----------



## daddywoofdawg

thanks Cfrye.
Summerfi,as soon as I get this bay item.I'll PM you about getting it sharpened.


----------



## summerfi

Copy that, dwd.


----------



## CFrye

You are welcome, Daddywolf! 
HWBMT (he who buys me tools) took me to my favorite 'antique mall' and bought me this!









He then went to HF and bought himself their 5 speed mini lathe! 
We are both happy!


----------



## Brit

So what do you want with an old man with hat and braces Candy?


----------



## chrisstef

They threw him in with the saw id bet andy.


----------



## CFrye

Andy, according to that old man, I keep him around to sweep up in the shop. He's not been doing his job lately, though. ;-)
See the sign he made?


----------



## theoldfart

old guy looks like a mud flap 

Happy Thanksgiving all !


----------



## DLK

> Now I ve seen it all. Terry is apologizing to a saw! LOL
> 
> Send yer saws this way boys. I ve got 3 saws to make on commission at the moment, but there s always time to fit in a sharpening job.
> 
> - summerfi


Where can I find your sharpening charges?


----------



## Tim457

Nice saw Candy. Are you going to clean er up and drop a tree with it?


----------



## CFrye

That's him, Kev!
Tim, unless I find a whole lotta gumption, and someone to hold the other end, it will be a wall hanger. 
Happy thanksgiving to you all!


----------



## summerfi

> Where can I find your sharpening charges?
> 
> - Combo Prof


Don, see the Saw Restoration, Repair, and Maintenance section of my website. I haven't published sharpening charges because each saw is different, and I consider the time it takes to do each saw right. I see few saws these days that only need a simple sharpening. Most need reshaping of the teeth, or even retoothing. I will say that my fees are more reasonable than any other sharpening or repair fees I've seen published on the Internet. Send me an email with description and pictures of your saw(s) and I'll be happy to give you a quote.


----------



## DLK

I really want to learn to sharpen saws all by myself, but I have no time to do it.


----------



## summerfi

You should give it a try Don. It opens up a whole new world, and you may find it easier than you think. Once you become a good saw filer, it will give you a sense of accomplishment and you'll be glad you did.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

> Now I ve seen it all. Terry is apologizing to a saw! LOL
> 
> Send yer saws this way boys. I ve got 3 saws to make on commission at the moment, but there s always time to fit in a sharpening job.
> 
> - summerfi


Ha! I've apologized to a few tools….and would take back several early LJ posts due to the fact I just didn't know what I was doing. Sometimes the problem is the tool. Sometimes it's the hands using it.

Hand tools are humbling.


----------



## jmartel

> Hand tools are humbling.
> 
> - BigRedKnothead


And just when you think you get the hang of one of them, you do end up messing something up to where it's back to square one. At least for me it is.


----------



## richardwootton

> Hand tools are humbling.
> 
> - BigRedKnothead
> 
> And just when you think you get the hang of one of them, you do end up messing something up to where it s back to square one. At least for me it is.
> 
> - jmartel


+1 to that!


----------



## summerfi

I've added a couple saws to the For Sale page of my website.

1. 1940's Disston D-8 filed 8 ppi crosscut.
2. 1896-1917 Disston No. 12 filed 7 ppi rip.


----------



## DLK

> You should give it a try Don. It opens up a whole new world, and you may find it easier than you think. Once you become a good saw filer, it will give you a sense of accomplishment and you ll be glad you did.
> 
> - summerfi


I just got to work up the courage. I have all the files, 8 saw sets, 2 saw vices, magnifier but no courage (or time).


----------



## summerfi

Wow, you're all set to go. Pick out a saw that doesn't matter and give it a go. What's the worst that could happen?


----------



## bandit571

Been giving this one a work out lately…









Seems to be a rip filed 9ppi. Disston #4 clone?


----------



## daddywoofdawg

I'm looking at a 12" Brass backed dovetail saw by Wm Tyzack and Sons, Sheffield.Is there a way to look at a photo of the teeth and tell if it's a rip or crosscut?


----------



## DLK

Can you get an edge view?


----------



## chrisstef

From what I can see while I squint it looks like there's a decent amount of set on that saw woof. Id be leaning towards crosscut but hard to say for sure. In any fashion you can reshape the teeth to make it crosscut without a whole lot of issue.

If you can get a clear shot, real up close and personal like, it'll help out.


----------



## daddywoofdawg

I'm looking at a 12" Brass backed dovetail saw by Wm Tyzack and Sons, Sheffield.Is there a way to look at a photo of the teeth and tell if it's a rip or crosscut?











> From what I can see while I squint it looks like there s a decent amount of set on that saw woof. Id be leaning towards crosscut but hard to say for sure. In any fashion you can reshape the teeth to make it crosscut without a whole lot of issue.
> 
> If you can get a clear shot, real up close and personal like, it ll help out.
> 
> - chrisstef


It will magnify if you click on this link.
http://www.auctiva.com/hostedimages/showimage.aspx?gid=1963281&image=869267818&images=869267823,869267818,869267812,869267809,869267803,869267793&formats=0,0,0,0,0,0&format=0


----------



## chrisstef

Looks like a rip with a heavy set to me. I couldn't identify any fleam looking knife edges but I could very well be wrong.


----------



## summerfi

That's a nice looking saw DWD. It's hard to tell from the photo, so it could be either. If you're going to use it for dovetails then it technically should be rip. However I often use a fine tooth xcut for dovetails and it works just fine.


----------



## daddywoofdawg

I'm still looking for a dovetail saw and this spear and jackson I found,wondering if it's a pre-ww2 saw as that's what I'm looking for. it has engraved in the handle "Non break handle"then under it patent applied for.which I think means pre 1930? is there any place I can find details about spear and jackson like the disston site has?


----------



## chrisstef

With split nuts id say pre war dwd. Backsaw.net may help ta out but nothin on the internet like the disston site that i know of. bob will drop some knowledge on ya im sure though.

Its a clean saw in good shape. Chip on the handle by the spine but little pitting.


----------



## daddywoofdawg

> With split nuts id say pre war dwd. Backsaw.net may help ta out but nothin on the internet like the disston site that i know of. bob will drop some knowledge on ya im sure though.
> 
> Its a clean saw in good shape. Chip on the handle by the spine but little pitting.
> 
> - chrisstef


The S&J doesn't have split nuts.the photo above is a different saw.


----------



## summerfi

My British saw book lists the Non Break handle as 1930. Here is a link to some S&J info.
http://www.wkfinetools.com/hUK/SpearJacks/sj-index.asp

Why don't you want to use the Tyzack saw for dovetails?


----------



## Pimzedd

Saw this at an estate sale this morning. Did not know if it had an value so I passed. But I thought it was interesting looking. Could not find any identifying marks.


----------



## CFrye

Under the heading of USING saws…this is a picture of my first full length rip cut, kinda as I cut part way thru then flipped it in the vise. 









Obviously I'm drifting right to left. What am I'm doing wrong? How do I fix it?
Thanks in advance.


----------



## terryR

Candy, awesome!
Try marking a line where you want the rip cut, and assess progress frequently. Rotate the workpiece so the backside faces you every once in a while to help tame the drift. Then back to the frontside facing you.

Take your time and try to avoid pushing down on the saw.


----------



## jmartel

Candy, did you mark a line for your cit the entire way down? Looks like you started off not square and then couldn't get back to where you needed to be.

For those who have built backsaws with a slotted back, this is a stupid question. Are the backs glued on the plates or is it just a friction fit? I know folded backs pinch the plate with no glue.

Exploring building a tenon saw as an option instead of buying one ready to go from bob or erik.


----------



## CFrye

There is a line, Terry. Hard to see on the pic. Good tips. I thought maybe there was something in my stance or something common that made this happen. You know, other than my greenness. ;-)


----------



## terryR

Yeah, candy, stance is important. 
Since I tend to saw to the right, maybe we should switch out workpieces and saw together?

For me, the trick is moving the saw back and forth in a straight path. Difficult to do! I tend to over grip the tote, so relax a little. Keep your feet about shoulder's width apart. Moving the workpiece down in the vise, so that only a few inches protrude, can help stop vibration.

Sometimes, a knife wall can help my saw stay straight. Honestly, I'm not so good at rip cuts…I rely on a jack plane to straighten my cuts.


----------



## bandit571

Might try this:

Score the line with a knife a couple times, lay the board flat. Run the saw along the knife line a few time to make a shallow kerf. Then stand the board up and follow the kerf.


----------



## summerfi

Candy, if a saw isn't set and sharpened properly, it can drift one way or the other in spite of your best efforts. Try running a sharpening stone down the side of the teeth on the left side of the saw and see if that helps. That will take a bit of the set out of that side and may straighten the cut a little.


----------



## Tim457

Candy if every saw you have drifts that way it's probably your technique. If it's only this one, it's the saw. My eyesight is such that I almost always drift the other way unless I carefully follow the techniques above and a couple others. Stance is definitely important, but if you know that, there's a good chance your stance is fine. Another trick I use is to set up a try square and use that to help line my saw up perfectly vertically. Another one is like Bandits, but keeping the board vertically, tilt the saw with the handle way down and extend the kerf down your line, flip and do the other side. Those kerfs help a lot, whichever way you make them.


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## onoitsmatt

+1 to Tims suggestion to cut at a steeper and steeper up angle at first to get that kerf as far down the face as you can, then do the same on the other side. Having the line drawn on both faces and across the end grain end will give you 2 faces to align with which will help too.


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## jmartel

Another thing, candy. Do you typically stand to the side or is your eye directly over the saw. I found that if I'm not looking directly over the saw so I can see both sides of the cut, it will always cut to the left like yours is.


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## theoldfart

^ Jmart, I tried that. Doesn't work with one eye ;-0

Drift has been one of my biggest problems with sawing. It has taken me around three years to get it right once I had good saws that were well sharpened. Even had trouble with mitre boxes. Guess I really am left leaning!


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## DLK

I find that I can cut the line with out drift, but don't saw orthogonal to the stock.


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## CL810

Don, is that when making rip or cross cuts? Or both?


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## Tim457

> I find that I can cut the line with out drift, but don t saw orthogonal to the stock.
> 
> - Combo Prof


Yeah I did that a lot too, on rips and crosscuts. More noticeable on the crosscuts. I've gotten better as I have practiced when periodically setting a try square up next to the saw blade. As I've gotten better I can follow the line and stay square® and true®.

Candy I just did a bunch of sawing and remembered one more trick which is when you lower the saw handle to establish the kerf down the line, use the part of the saw closest to the handle because it's stiffest and stays straighter. Then use your fingers and thumb of your free hand to guide the plate right on or next to your line depending on the cut.


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## Brit

I picked up this R Groves and Sons saw tonight on ebay. Currently 5 tpi, but I might change that. Should clean up Ok.


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## chrisstef

Wow andy. Thats in great shape all ready. Great score.


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## TheTurtleCarpenter

^^^ditt-o'


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## theoldfart

Our Mr Groves did make some fine eye candy.


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## summerfi

Waiting patiently to see Andy's next masterpiece restoration.


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## Brit

I've got two weeks off at Christmas Bob, so hopefully I'll get time to do it then. I've got a couple of other hand saws that are half done too, so my goal is to have all three done at the end of the two weeks. We've got our charity Christmas event next weekend in our village, so the last few weekends I've been doing stuff in preparation for that.


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## CFrye

I knew I could count on you all for lots of help. I'm gonna have to make an excuse to do another rip cut so I can practice some of these suggestions. I used a tiny Woodpecker square on a crosscut this morning to help keep the saw blade perpendicular. Worked pretty good.  I'm using a plastic handled Stanley backsaw on this rough lumber (ash). It's leaving a really smooth surface, therefore becoming a favorite despite its non-wood handle. 
Andy, what they said! I'm still looking for a handle with a lambs tongue. Maybe have to make one…hmmm


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## DylanC

Good Morning Ladies & Gents,

I'm looking for some help with a Disston backsaw I recently purchased, primarily identification and slight repair of a kink. Before I knew about this post, I made a general inquiry in the Hand Tool forum. If anyone help would be greatly appreciated.

http://lumberjocks.com/topics/132434










Thanks.


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## summerfi

Hi Dylan, and welcome to the saw thread. Your saw is almost certainly a No. 4. Regarding what appears to be taper of the blade, read this thread and I think it will answer your questions.

Regarding the crook in the blade, here are a couple links that may be helpful.
http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/bSmalser/strSawBlade/strSawBlade1.asp





Let us know how your saw turns out.


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## TheFridge

After looking at eBay.uk. It's like tool heaven over there.


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## planepassion

Oh Andy, you've assembled a very fine saw nest. I look forward to seeing them in your pics as you post more projects.


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## summerfi

I agree with you Fridge. The killer is shipping. I see so many tools there I'd gladly buy, but the cost of shipping makes it unreasonable, at least for me. I've bid on a few things, but have only made 2 or 3 actual purchases.


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## DylanC

Summerfi: Thanks for the links. I had seen Bob Smalser's article, very informative. But if a picture is worth 1,000 words, a video must be worth 1,000 pictures. As far as the taper or "cant" is concerned, the LJ post you linked and the before and after shots on your website were very helpful. I removed the handle and found the saw plate only ~1/16" into the spine at the heel, and nearly the full 1" at the toe. Based on that, and the other information I've gleaned, I'm planning on removing the spine and "hammering out the kinks" as they say. I'll definitely practice the technique on one of the newer saws before attempting this one.

I also checked out your "day job" work on your site. Inspiring is the word that comes to mind. I hope someday when I grow up I find half of the patience and passion that you obviously have for saw smithing.


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## Tim457

I agree, nice links, Bob. I've also read the Bob Smalser article and not entirely understood it. I'll have to give a go at some practice saws and see if I can get them straighter.


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## summerfi

Tim, I've found parts of Bob Smalser's article to be more theoretical than practical, at least for me. Most of what I've learned about straightening saws (though I'm certainly no expert) came from practice and experience as you suggested. A couple things I've learned, straightening a saw comes about slowly and incrementally. A few good whacks is not going to do it. A thousand light taps works much better than a half dozen hard blows. I've never put a mark on a saw with a hammer, but I've seen a lot of saws that have hammer "dimples" on them. I can't imagine what a hard lick it took to do that, and I can't imagine what the person doing it must have been thinking. Patience is a necessary ingredient for straightening saws.


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## Tim457

Thanks Bob. So do you tap even more lightly than the guy in the video? He leaves what he calls burnish marks.


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## TheFridge

Inquisitive minds want to know


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## summerfi

Probably about the same Tim, or maybe just a little lighter. I use a small (probably 8 oz.) ball peen hammer with a slightly rounded face. Most of the time I can't see where I've hit the saw at all. Occasionally I can see a very slight mark, especially if the blade is polished or there is wax on it, that easily buffs out. When I say a thousand taps, I mean that literally. My hammer will be going like a machine gun, but again the taps are light, and I stop frequently to check progress. Eventually you'll see the saw starting to straighten more and more. It's important to keep the saw flat against the anvil, wood block, or whatever you're using. I like to apply tension by forming a slight bow that presses the saw flat against the anvil


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## summerfi

Getting my ducks in a row…










and my picket fence in order too.


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## BigRedKnothead

^What we lookin at dere Pancho?


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## summerfi

Just some saws I'm werkin' on. Two important ones are not shown though. ;-)


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## Brit

Very nice Bob. Looking forward to the reveal.


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## TheTurtleCarpenter

SomeBody's gonna have a nice Christmas !! I want a leg holster for Christmas and a Bob or Brit saw to go in it.


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## Tim457

> Probably about the same Tim, or maybe just a little lighter. I use a small (probably 8 oz.) ball peen hammer with a slightly rounded face. Most of the time I can t see where I ve hit the saw at all. Occasionally I can see a very slight mark, especially if the blade is polished or there is wax on it, that easily buffs out. When I say a thousand taps, I mean that literally. My hammer will be going like a machine gun, but again the taps are light, and I stop frequently to check progress. Eventually you ll see the saw starting to straighten more and more. It s important to keep the saw flat against the anvil, wood block, or whatever you re using. I like to apply tension by forming a slight bow that presses the saw flat against the anvil
> - summerfi


Thanks again Bob, finally had some success today. You're not exaggerating about the 1000 taps either. I took one grungy rusty plate and tapped until I got the bow out along the entire length and it was straight the whole way down except the tooth line had a few small waves to it. I didn't have quite as much success getting the small waves perfectly out of the tooth line but I improved it a lot. Then went a did another and had good success with it too. Not ready to try a rare saw, but I have plenty of bowed saws to practice on. The more polished second plate didn't mark nearly as much, and if I was more gentle, basically not at all. Either way the marks came out very easily with 600 grit wet dry.


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## summerfi

That's great to hear Tim. Sounds like you've got it down pat now!


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## bearkatwood

Love the saw Bob, amazing work again!


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## Mosquito

For those frequenters of this thread who are interested, a new calendar has been put together, and the info can be found here:
http://lumberjocks.com/topics/133282


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## TobyC

> I picked up this R Groves and Sons saw tonight on ebay. Currently 5 tpi, but I might change that. Should clean up Ok.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> - Brit


Super sweet!!!


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## TobyC

> Getting my ducks in a row…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and my picket fence in order too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - summerfi


Very cool Bob!

Third handle from the left is a beauty!


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## summerfi

Here are four 14" backsaws that I've finally gotten around to restoring. These are from the British backsaw lot purchase of about a year ago. Left to right in the first picture: Fenton & Marsdens, C. Garlick & Sons, Atkin & Son, Richard Ibbotson. Before and after pictures are shown on the Show The Restoration thread. I have at least nine 14" backsaws now, so a couple of these will be for sale on my website.


----------



## putty

^ saw porn


----------



## racerglen

Just wow…


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## Brit

You're work always inspires Bob. I like them all, but if I had to pick one it would be the Ibbotson.


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## summerfi

That's my favorite too Andy.


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## DanKrager

This plate declares that it is a 100th anniversary Atkins tapered stainless steel 8 pt crosscut. Needs a handle and bolts. Pointers to locate a fit?

















This is a warranted superior I remember "derusting" with a bench grinder when I was in high school. It was badly pitted when I found it in the barn and is no better for the ill fated "restoration", but it's the best I can get it now and it will be a user. The still visible grinder marks (not so visible in the picture) will bring memories every time I use it. More pictures of other work tomorrow hopefully. I know you can hardly wait…. 









DanK


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## TobyC

I think that Atkins had a plastic handle.


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## putty

Dan, will this work for you?


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## DanKrager

Is that apple, Putty?

In an amazing flash of brilliance, I lost the holes on my D7 plate! They are forever gone somewhere amongst the debris on the floor. I spent most of this week working on saws and trying to wrap them up for placement in their respective tills. A good portion of this week then was making a new handle for the D7 plate that came without a salvageable handle. When it came time to lay out the holes, a warranted superior plate was laying on the work space and I carefully transferred the hole layout and drilled them, even spent time fitting the odd sizes that WS makers used for bolt heads and medallions. I was SO pleased with the fit that I didn't even notice that the handle I picked up from the finishing booth was actually for the WS. Happy as a pig in a poke I put it back on the WS plate and put it into the till to work on the next plate while the new handle last coat of finish dried. Later today, I went to put the newly minted handle on the plate it was intended for, the D7, but the holes were gone! Such brilliance so amazes me I didn't even get angry. Anybody want a cheap apple handle?
















DanK


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## putty

Yes, it is apple Dan
I will put it in the mail tomorrow


----------



## DanKrager

One of the D8 plates is a badly sharpened 3 1/2 TPI rip. The sharpening was so irregular that it was almost like making new teeth from scratch. Can't wait for the handles to dry to see how much horsepower this thing takes. I'll bet it will be a good work out.









DanK


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## terryR

Tote looks great, Dan!

Lost holes? Huh?


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## summerfi

I think he means he had a senior moment (like I often do) and used the WS plate as a pattern to drill holes in the new handle intended for the D-7.


----------



## terryR

Dunno what all you old farts are talking about…senior moments?

My 50 year old brain is still sharp as a tack! I even made straight A's in engineering school a dozen years ago!

"Not sure how the oreos got in the 'fridge last night, Honey." LOL.


----------



## Hammerthumb

My wife says that my mind is like a steel trap….that is rusted shut!


----------



## CB_Cohick

> I knew I could count on you all for lots of help. I m gonna have to make an excuse to do another rip cut so I can practice some of these suggestions. I used a tiny Woodpecker square on a crosscut this morning to help keep the saw blade perpendicular. Worked pretty good.  I m using a plastic handled Stanley backsaw on this rough lumber (ash). It s leaving a really smooth surface, therefore becoming a favorite despite its non-wood handle.
> Andy, what they said! I m still looking for a handle with a lambs tongue. Maybe have to make one…hmmm
> 
> - CFrye


Hi, Candy. I was reading your post and the follow-ups, and had to try some of the suggestions out using a rip saw I have been playing with. I too noticed it tends to drift left, the side of the cut I stand on. Scribing a line the full length on both sides of the cut was a help. Also, I noticed if I "bent" the blade out of what I think is straight up and down in the direction of the drift, it got me back on track. Might be worth a shot if you are still wandering. Additionally, while I am working on my accuracy I find that adding about an eighth of an inch to the desired finished width, and planing down any variance is a good idea in my case. It helps clean up the saw marks also, as my rip saw has an aggressive cut and leaves a rough edge.


----------



## rhybeka

so back to saw stance  when you are sawing, is one foot generally in front of the other and body is sideways, or should the body be square to the saw/piece of wood?


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## summerfi

The amount of set can affect how hard or easy it is to correct a saw that is wanting to drift off course. A heavier set provides more room in the kerf to "steer" the saw blade. Regarding a saw leaving a rough edge, this could be due to inconsistent set in the teeth. Even if one or two teeth are set a little more than the others, those teeth can make the cut surface rough. That's why it's a good idea to run a sharpening stone down each side of the saw after setting and sharpening. Called side dressing, this action evens out the amount of set in the teeth.

Regarding position while sawing, if you are right handed and the board is in a vise, you want to have your left foot forward, right foot back, and saw roughly at elbow level.

I have no problem whatsoever following a line while sawing, but I've always had a tendency to make my saw cuts not quite perpendicular to the board, even though it looks like I am while sawing. I've always thought it would be a good idea to have someone video tape me and then I could study it and figure out what I need to do differently.


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## rhybeka

assuming the opposite for lefties, Bob? (which I am


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## CL810

Look what showed up at my house today.










I purchased this to give to my son but you know I had to test it out to make sure it worked right! :-0










It's a table saw that is set up as a hybrid. I couldn't be happier. The rip cuts had zero drift. The cross cuts I made had minimal tear out. Of course, had I marked the cuts with a knife there would have been zero tear out. My camera does not come close to doing the saw justice. The handle is unbelievable. The overall fit, finish, and sharpening is every bit as good as the Bad Axe saws I purchased a few years back


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## summerfi

Yes, correct Becky


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## summerfi

Thanks for those nice comments Andy. I'm glad you like the saw. I'll post a couple more pics below.


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## CB_Cohick

> The amount of set can affect how hard or easy it is to correct a saw that is wanting to drift off course. A heavier set provides more room in the kerf to "steer" the saw blade. Regarding a saw leaving a rough edge, this could be due to inconsistent set in the teeth. Even if one or two teeth are set a little more than the others, those teeth can make the cut surface rough. That s why it s a good idea to run a sharpening stone down each side of the saw after setting and sharpening. Called side dressing, this action evens out the amount of set in the teeth.
> 
> - summerfi


Ok, this was something else for me to try out. HOLY SAW BALLS, BATMAN! Just a couple swipes with my coarse diamond stone on each side of the blade, and wow what a difference. It is not very rough at all now. Still drifting left a bit, perhaps a couple more swipes on that side.


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## rhybeka

/drool/ that is sweet looking! you have one lucky son!


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## CL810

Thanks Beka! If you knew my son you'd know I'm a lucky dad.


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## putty

That is a Beauty CL810 and Bob.

Your son will love it CL810


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## Mosquito

You know Bob, you made it really hard to not make the 'saws' month in the calendar an advertisement for Rocky Mountain Saw Works lol


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## Brit

Chris - Don't go too mad with the side dressing if you're using a coarse diamond stone. It is a fine line between 'just right' and OH CRAP!!!

Stunning saw Bob!


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## CB_Cohick

> Chris - Don t go too mad with the side dressing if you re using a coarse diamond stone. It is a fine line between just right and OH CRAP!!!
> 
> - Brit


I gave it two more swipes, that seems about right now.


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## summerfi

LOL Ooops, sorry Mos. I didn't mean to, really. Thanks for the comments everyone.


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## terryR

Mos, Bob's saws could easily justify a calendar.
And that till….....OMG…......

BTW, got my calendar today; nice work!


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## jmartel

Has anyone here used the Liogier handle maker's rasp and can compare it to the Gramercy? Wonder if it's worth the extra money. With the current exchange rate, it's about $12 more after shipping, but you can get it in different coarseness.


----------



## johnstoneb

Found this D8 at an estate sale. Got it for $2.50. The etch is visible the handle has some cracks but all there missing 2 brass handle nuts.


















After a little work with lacquer thinner to get the pitch off the blade a little ROS action, some CA in the handle cracks and new lacquer on the handle.




























It does need sharpened the wave in the blade in the next to last picture is the blade not the camera And the teeth are not the same size.
I need two brass handle nuts, They are not split nuts but solid and 19/32 or 5/8 in diameter. Does anybody have a couple they want to sell or have a source? I can find chrome bolts and split nuts but no solid brass.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Lobe me that table saw action, Andy! Congrats!


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## terryR

JHandStitch, I believe Brit has the Liogier rasp, and loves it. I have the Gramercy, a sweet tool that gets used for lots more than saw totes!

I bet either will make you happy in the long run!


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## summerfi

Nice job on the D-8 Bruce. It is the old style (8 inside D), and it looks in terrific shape.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Bob, is that a chunk of Iowa walnut on Andy's saw?

Wish I could grow cocobolo.


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## summerfi

Indeed it is Red. 

Have you thought about building a huge greenhouse? LOL


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Good fun about a chunk of Pauls' walnut going to Andy and his son.

A big greenhouse/shop might be fitting. I'm freezin my petunia's off in my new shop.


----------



## CL810

Iowa walnut via Missoula Montana. Who'd thought that would happen.

I've thought that a tree farm might be a neat legacy to leave your heirs. But I think I would have needed to start it when I was around 50. I know of a guy around here that has over 70,000 trees he's planted as his hobby. Buys up cheap land and plants trees. Crazy.

Interesting blog post on growing cocobolo

Cocobolo Farm


----------



## daddywoofdawg

If anyone is looking for brass nuts. 
http://www.fine-tools.com/make-your-own-saw.html


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## summerfi

I frequently see something on eBay that has me puzzled, and I wonder if someone here may have some insight. There are sellers who part out large numbers of handsaws, and then sell the parts in lots of 15 - 20. There will be lots of blades, lots of handles, and lots of screws. Generally these are lower quality, worn out, or rusty, damaged saws. I don't understand what advantage they see that's worth the effort to disassemble these saws. The only people I can think of who use large numbers of low quality saws are the people who paint on saws. It seems like these people would want whole saws, not saw parts. Anybody have a clue what's going on?


----------



## putty

Maybe the shipping is cheaper…You can stack up a dozen blades in a pretty small package


----------



## donwilwol

They have been doing the same thing with hand planes. I was wondering the same thing Bob.


----------



## chrisstef

Maybe they feel like they can get a little more scratch out of it, I dunno. Its like parting out a Yugo though. Nobody wants it.


----------



## Tim457

My only guess is almost every saw is missing one or more nuts so selling as a lot makes it harder to tell. Putty might be on to something too. Neither one really explains doing the same thing for planes.


----------



## shampeon

My guess is that it's just a practical thing. Some estate sale bulk buyer is left with a bunch of cheap, bad tools as they sell off the valuable stuff. They're never going to sell a rusty, incomplete saw for $1 or $.050. But a bundle of rusty saw blades or random saw nuts might be worth $15 to somebody.


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## Brit

No idea what is in the seller's mind Bob. It seems as silly as me forgetting to bid on a Wheeler, Madder & Clemson today only to find that it went for £2.70. I felt physically sick. To make matters worse, it is the first one I've seen on eBay.co.uk too. I tell myself it happened for a reason, but it doesn't really help stave off the tears. LOL.


----------



## Brit

I managed to finish a couple of saws in my restore pile today. The top one is a Taylor Brothers Guinea for the Millions rip saw at 6ppi with a double medallion and a rather nice etch. I decided to restore it with the handle in situ as the split nuts showed no signs of budging and I really didn't want to break one of the medallions. The bottom one is a Disston No.7 crosscut saw at 10ppi. No etch on this one, just some nasty pitting.










The R Groves & Sons No.26 rip saw that I acquired last week also got de-rusted today and the handle has been rough sanded.


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## summerfi

Those look fantastic Andy. Glad to see you knocking the saws out again. Are you going to do a blog on those? Sorry about the WMC. If it's any consolation, I've done the same thing, multiple times.


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## Brit

Good to know I'm not alone Bob. No, I'm not going to do any more saw blogs. I think I'm all blogged out as far as saws are concerned, unless something comes along that I feel is worth sharing.


----------



## theoldfart

Andy, Bob I let a set of Ford auger bits get away. I fell asleep waiting to snipe ;-)


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## Brit

Ok, now they've gone too far.


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## chrisstef

Yowch ^


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## donwilwol

dispite the painting, that's got some unusual teeth Andy.


----------



## Tim457

Here's what the Forest Service's Crosscut Saw Manual has to say about those teeth:

"Until the 15th century, the two-person crosscut saw used a plain tooth pattern. The M tooth pattern seems to have been developed and used in south Germany in the 1400s. Even as late as 1900 most of the European crosscuts still used the plain tooth pattern with a few exceptions of M tooth being used. Not until fairly recently was the saw with a raker or "drag" developed."

Plain tooth being simple triangular teeth.

Pretty funny sign, and at least they used a saw that was already rusty enough that the etch was gone.


----------



## richardwootton

> Under the heading of USING saws…this is a picture of my first full length rip cut, kinda as I cut part way thru then flipped it in the vise.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Obviously I m drifting right to left. What am I m doing wrong? How do I fix it?
> Thanks in advance.
> 
> - CFrye


Candy, sorry to bring up such an old subject, but have you thought about building a saw bench? That made big rips quite a lot faster, easier, and more accurate. Also, The Renaissance Woodworker has a video titled "RWW191 One Step to Better Hand Sawing" and it is also really helpful. Here's the link for the video.


----------



## richardwootton

During our family/friend Christmas party this past week a guest wandered into my shop unattended to smoke a cigarette and make a phone call. Which, is normally not an issue, but I definitely prefer to be in the shop when there is a guest. While out there he accidentally bumped my thumb hole D8 off it's hook. Of course, the handle shattered into multiple pieces rendering it irreparable.
The guest has offered to compensate me for either the repair, or replacement, but I don't know how much to tell him. This was my first handsaw resto that I got from christef and it holds a dear place in my heart. If it had been my Bedrock 605 I probably would have flipped my lid! So here's my question, what do you guys think is fair to ask for compensation? My initial assumption would be enough to replace the saw so I can have a usable replacement while I make a new handle. Is that out of line?
Thanks folks!


----------



## TheFridge

I'd find the a board foot of sweetest figured 5/4 I could find and pass the buck.


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## jmartel

> My initial assumption would be enough to replace the saw so I can have a usable replacement while I make a new handle. Is that out of line?
> Thanks folks!
> 
> - richardwootton





> I d find the a board foot of sweetest figured 5/4 I could find and pass the buck.
> 
> - TheFridge


I just got some figured maple in preparation for making a few saw handles. I think I have more than I'd need if you want me to cut you off an appropriately sized blank and ship it out.

After a quick scraping with denatured alcohol:










It's 1 1/8" thick as well, and not that rough, so plenty thick enough for shaping.


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## TheFridge

Mmmm. Maple.


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## summerfi

Richard, one approach would be to look up 3 similar saws that have sold recently on ebay, average the selling price, print them off and show them to the fellow. Your replacement cost is more than the wood; it also includes your time.


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## CFrye

No apology needed, Richard. Thanks for the video link. I have been thinking of a saw bench build. Sorry to hear about your broken thumbie. :-(
Excuse me while I drool over this maple…


> - jmartel


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## donwilwol

Richard, I agree with Bobs approach. The other would be to pick a few for sale and send the link and say I'd like one of these.


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## chrisstef

That bastard, wootton!!


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## racerglen

That sucks no matter how it works out. I smoke, but not in my shop and "guests" are not allowed in when I'm not there.


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## summerfi

*Merry Christmas sawyers!*


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## chrisstef

Oh Bob, you shouldn't have!


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## donwilwol

> *Merry Christmas sawyers!*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - summerfi


+2


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## MNclone

> *Merry Christmas sawyers!*
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - summerfi


Woah.


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## terryR

Oh my…I'd pass out if I saw those!
Happy Holidays, gang!

Bummer about the thumbhole tote. Can you make another? I still need to see how the slot is cut for the tote…


----------



## TobyC

> During our family/friend Christmas party this past week a guest wandered into my shop unattended to smoke a cigarette and make a phone call. Which, is normally not an issue, but I definitely prefer to be in the shop when there is a guest. While out there he accidentally bumped my thumb hole D8 off it s hook. Of course, the handle shattered into multiple pieces rendering it irreparable.
> The guest has offered to compensate me for either the repair, or replacement, but I don t know how much to tell him. This was my first handsaw resto that I got from christef and it holds a dear place in my heart. If it had been my Bedrock 605 I probably would have flipped my lid! So here s my question, what do you guys think is fair to ask for compensation? My initial assumption would be enough to replace the saw so I can have a usable replacement while I make a new handle. Is that out of line?
> Thanks folks!
> 
> - richardwootton


Give him a choice, three grand, or cut off his right hand.


----------



## TheFridge

Good saw set for 15-20 tpi saw?


----------



## summerfi

^ Somax blue


----------



## DanKrager

I have an extra thumby handle…pm me.

DanK


----------



## richardwootton

Thanks for all of the replies y'all! Dan, PM is coming your way.

JMart, that is some of the nicest figure I've seen in Maple. Crazy gorgeous!


----------



## jmartel

Richard, if you don't get the handle from Dan and want to make one, I can get you a piece for a handle from the lot. Just give me a PM with an address.


----------



## summerfi

After watching this saw on eBay for a couple weeks, I couldn't resist any longer and pushed the BIN button this morning. I feel guilty because it's the most I've ever paid for a saw by quite a bit. However, it's a rare saw with collector value. This is a Moulson Brothers (British) 14" steel back sash saw with triple cove handle. As far as I can tell, Disston was the first to make a triple cove handle in c1844. A few other makers followed suit as they so often did with new Disston innovations. Among these were William McNiece and William Jackson in America and Richard Groves and Moulson Bros in Britain. In scouring the internet for triple cove saws, I've only located about 15, though there are undoubtedly more. If this was a Disston it would be worth several hundred dollars. There is a Disston on Australian ebay right now for $460. Mine didn't cost that much, but hopefully it's worth what I paid. So now the question becomes, should I restore this saw or leave it as is? Opinions are welcome.


----------



## putty

Do your magic on it Bob!


----------



## TheFridge

> ^ Somax blue
> 
> - summerfi


Thanks bob. That's what I have. Worked like a champ on 16 tpi.

Leave or restore? Tough question. Clean up and leave as is?


----------



## DanKrager

OK. Pardon the visible ignorance. What is a triple cove?

DanK

edit: Never mind. I didn't see the swoops in the darkness of the blade. I guess not only my hearing is going…


----------



## summerfi

Dan, triple cove refers to the three concave shapes along the top of the saw handle.


----------



## donwilwol

> So now the question becomes, should I restore this saw or leave it as is? Opinions are welcome.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - summerfi


This is an ever ending dilemma of the collector. I'm going to be interested in what you decide. There being no real right or wrong answer, and each piece should be its own decision I think. A saw is a little different than a plane. Typically even if I restore a plane I keep as much of the original as I can. If I replace something, I try to make it period correct.

It's unlikely you'd find a period correct plate, and changing it totally changes the saw. Restoring it with all its original pieces is probably ok, but in my mind, once you start changing pieces on a saw, why not just keep the original, and produce an exact copy replica.

If nothing else, the saw found a good home, no matter what you're decision is.


----------



## Brit

Very nice saw Bob and I don't blame you for pulling the trigger. Personally, I would leave it as is and just hang it on the wall to enjoy it.

There is an I. Sorby saw on ebay.co.uk at the moment that I have been drooling over. At £275 BIN it is too rich for me, but I think it is the most beautiful saw I have ever seen. The shape of the handle is perfect IMO.


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## summerfi

Beautiful saw Andy. I couldn't bring myself to pay that price either.


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## racerglen

Oh the saw porn files are out again..Bob, once you have the Moulson then it's your call, but I'd be looking at the saw before deciding, maybe even some of your restorative genius and then a final choice ? Seconding DonW's remarks as well.

Andy, that is a work of art !


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## chrisstef

Does this handle style ring any bells?










It comes off a split nut saw with a rather small WS medallion. I cant make out much on the medallion. Its filthy. I uncovered a stamp on the plate that ends with … ANTATION.


----------



## chrisstef

Yea bob thats a work of art. Youll take stock of its condition and know what to do with it im sure.


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## summerfi

Stef, my guess is PLANTATION. It seems like I've seen a picture of a saw with that etch, but I can't remember for sure. I suspect the saw is a secondary brand of one of the major U.S. saw makers.


----------



## chrisstef

Id agree with it being second line bob. The handle is a bit less than comfortable and far from sexy. Plantation is a solid call. Ill see what i can dig up. Thanks buddy.

Also working on a spear & jackson ripper, disston miter, wmc panel saw and a funk nasty disston 7.


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## Johnny7

"PLANTATION" was one of the brand names used by the Monhagen Saw Works of Middletown, NY-that company's most well-known nameplate would be Wheeler, Madden & Clemson.


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## chrisstef

Well all right ! Thanks johnny.


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## daddywoofdawg

My new to me dovetail tenon saw.It's a Brass Back stamped 'Thos. Turner, Sheffield ( and logo ) Refined? Cast Steel, Made For Thomas Green, Ironmonger, Shrewsbury', 12" Blade, All Teeth,13 Points per Inch approx. Stamped 'O.P.Loten' plus an older partly obliterated name ' F.M.Tagus'?wooden reinforcing dowel has been glued through the grip,Although I think this may have been factory.
Can anyone tell if this is crosscut or rip?



























when it comes to Cutting dovetails is this ok,or should I have it set to rip? If the teeth aren't rip.


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## summerfi

As best as I can tell from the picture, it looks like it is filed rip. For dovetails, you'll want to keep it a rip. I'd rather have 15 or 16 ppi for a dovetail saw, but sharpen her up and see how she does. It's a nice looking saw. Spear & Jackson did the dowel through the handle thing and called it a non-break handle. I wasn't aware Turner ever did that, but it's the same principle and probably factory. The "Refined" cast steel is just a marketing thing. British sawmakers kept tacking on adjectives to try to make their saws look better than the stiff competition. If you look hard, you might even find a saw with "Double Extra Refined London Spring" steel.


----------



## Brit

R Groves 26" 6ppi rip saw is now complete. I had to dye this handle due to the fact that someone had dyed it previously and there was no way I could sand past it. It turned out OK though.


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## summerfi

She's a beauty Andy. Very nice job. Any idea what the USE means on Groves saws? I've never found anyone who seems to be certain.


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## TobyC

What is that anyway, boobs?


----------



## Brit

LOL. Boobs indeed. I've been wondering what it means as well Bob. The logo reminds me of the embellishment that you see on the top of wrought ironwork. I'll try to find out more about it when I get the chance.


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## BigRedKnothead

Andy, I'll take that saw off your hands if you don't care for the Picasso cubes.


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## summerfi

I see that an 1850's Disston No. 9 that I restored a few months ago for a client in Georgia has now shown up on eBay. He even used my pictures LOL. Seems like a lot of money, but it's a good old saw and worth the price. It will be interesting to see if it gets bid up.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/161929425564?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


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## daddywoofdawg

My guess is USE like n use a product,Capped like in underlined.So USE Sheffield steel.The Boobs I think is a fancy W as in warranted.


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## chrisstef

Finished the cleaning of a 20" disston, made for langdon miter box saw.


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## terryR

Lovely restores, guys!

Hard to believe someone would sell a Bob Saw; but we're all a bit different!


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## summerfi

Nice job on the miter saw Stef.

USE = unbelievable sawing experience? LOL


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## Johnny7

The phrase "USE", as found on UK-made saws is thought by many to stand for United States Export (meaning they were mfd for export)

The point of stamping them would be related to tariffs.

Note for instance, that in many cases, the letters in USE are separated by periods, indicating that it is indeed an abbreviation.


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## summerfi

I've heard that theory Johnny, but I don't believe it's correct. Nearly all the Groves saws in the UK have USE stamped on them as well, and they obviously weren't made for export.


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## Brit

Personally, I don't buy that either Johnny. R. Groves and Son(s) also made cutlery, files and other tools and the mark was awarded by the Company of Cutlers and registered as their corporate mark in England and Germany. If USE stood for 'United States Export' and items marked with it were destined for the US, wouldn't it have made sense to register the mark in the US (if that was possible at the time)? Why register it in Germany? Also, if they were destined for the US, why do so many of their saws carrying that mark turn up on eBay.co.uk?

Can anyone post an example where the letters USE are separated by periods as I don't think I've ever seen that.

I've been doing a bit of research into cutlers marks and will post my findings once I've distilled them into a few paragraphs.


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## Brit

The symbol above the USE was used by a number of cutlers and the letters underneath differentiated the different cutlers. The page below is an extract from The Great Mark book and if you look carefully you will see that even on this one page there are 8 marks that incorporate the same symbol used by R Groves & Son(s).










As to the meaning of USE, I believe it is probable that they are just random letters or possibly the initials of the cutlers at R Groves & Son(s). To understand why I think this you will need to do a bit of reading yourself I'm afraid, so if you are interested in understanding a bit more about cutlers marks take a look at pages 44 to 47 of Mesters to Masters: A History of the Company of Cutlers in Hallamshire


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## summerfi

Thanks for all that Andy. I'll follow up on reading the link you provided. Some may find this sort of detail boring, but I find it extremely interesting. Things were certainly different in England where registration of makers marks was tightly controlled, compared to America where a maker could put pretty much anything he felt like on a tool. I've heard the figure on Groves' saws called a candlestick, but to me it just looks like a fancy decorative mark something on the order of a fleur de lis. Groves wasn't the only maker to put USE on his saws, though perhaps in a different context. Below is a picture of my Taylor Brothers saw that has the inscription MADE FOR USE stamped sideways near the handle. I've never seen a saw with periods after the individual letters. Something that is also interesting is that some makers expressed their sense of humor (humour for Andy) by stamping whimsical phrases, or plays on words and figures, on some of their tools. But that is a subject for another time and more research. Was Taylor's "MADE FOR USE" a subtle jab at Groves' "USE"? Who knows.


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## Brit

Interesting Bob. Of course, it could be that the 'MADE FOR USE' on your Taylor Bros. saw means exactly what it says. In other words the saw is made to do some real work.


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## BigRedKnothead

Was thinking today as I worked that a year or two ago I would've sworn I needed a 'lectric router to make this dado joint. Tough to do on an assembled chair. Nerve wracking because a mistake would be disastrous.










I marked and cut kerfs for the dados and chiseled with ease. Then planed a snug little friction fit.










So, thanks for the hand saw nudge and education boys. It has affected my furniture making in a very positive way.

PS. Bob just finished some outstanding saws for me. Bring on the eye candy Bob…lol!


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## summerfi

Well, I generally like to wait until the new owner gets their saws to make sure they are happy. But since you asked, Red, here are the two saws I just finished up today on commission to Red. They are a 12" carcass saw and a 16" tenon saw. Bet you all can guess what wood the handles are made of. LOL I'm glad these are going to a quality home where they will get used and cared for.


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## ToddJB

Cuss spit


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## putty

Wow!!!

Beautiful work Bob,

Red, you will need to make a special saw till for those! Can't wait to see some pictures of you using them.


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## TheFridge

What Todd said.

i think that was the straw that broke the camels back bob. RMS here I come.


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## jmartel

So did you have to make the handles twice the normal size for his giant hands?


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## summerfi

I did use an XL handle pattern. They feel too big for my hand, but boy does that coco feel smooth.


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## BigRedKnothead

They do look outstanding Bob. Can't wait to get 'em.

I do have some beefy hands. I've had to modify my LN handles and others. I'll bet these work just fine.

The cocobolo will only get better with age. Awhile back I posted my planes with a freshly turned knob on my no7. People commented on how it didn't match. 









Just takes a little time.


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## TheFridge

A little spit and polish goes a long way hey.


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## Brit

Amazing work Bob. You are setting a new standard with each saw you make. That wood is gorgeous!


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## DonBroussard

Andy-Pure awesomeness on those rehabs! Also, good info on the cutlers marks.

Bob-I am proud of you and the work you're doing with the new saws. Between you, Brit, Johnny7 and TobyC, y'all have all the saw history covered.

Stef-Well done on the backsaw refurb.

TobyC-Boobs! That was funny!

BRK-Neat work on the chair arm. Also a nice family shot of the Coco's.


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## CL810

Amazing stuff going on here. Those coco handles will make Red feel like he's cheating on his wife every time he picks one up.


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## terryR

Gorgeous saws, Bob! It's difficult to keep coming up with superlatives to describe what you do!

Congrats, Red, but I'm not sure I could USE those gems…


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## chrisstef

Typing in a puddle of drool is hard.


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## ArlinEastman

A guy on WoodNet bought me a Saw for Christmas. The company I got it from was Bad Axe tools










When he paid for the saw Bad Axe called me for all the details and what kind of saw I wanted.

I told him the saw had to do dovetails, box joints, tennons, cross cutting or a all around saw since I did not have a hand saw.

So it was the above given with 14 ppi and 12" long.


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## summerfi

You're a lucky guy Arlin. That's a very nice saw.


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## SuppressiveFire

Nice saw Arlin!


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## TheFridge

Wow. Nice guy.


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## racerglen

Shazam ! Great gift Arlin !


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## TheFridge

I'd definitely give a HJ for that.


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## ArlinEastman

Thanks guys but the biggest to the guy who bought it for me. Now all we need is a good sharp rip saw.


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## Johnny7

Wow *Bob* - those cocobolo-handled saws are a thing of beauty!


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## putty

Nice saw Arlin, I like those blued backs


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## summerfi

My Moulson Brothers saw arrived today. Overall it's about what I expected or maybe a little better. The plate and spine are stained but have very little pitting. The plate has waves in it, but I think those would straighten out if the spine was reset. The plate seems very salvageable, though it is getting on the narrow side.



















There are two areas that are problematic. First, the upper horn is broken. I've repaired many of these, so that's not a big problem.










Second, the end of the cheek on the left side is eroded away pretty badly. This would be a little harder to make a decent looking repair on, but not impossible.










My initial thought, subject to change, is to make the repairs, reset the spine, clean it up and make it usable again. By cleaning it up I mean cleaning the grime off the handle and waxing it, but not sanding or refinishing, other than as needed around the repaired areas. Cleaning the plate and spine would consist of polishing them to remove much of the staining, but not make them shiny new looking. Of course I would reshape and sharpen the teeth as well.

This saw has a cool large medallion measuring 1-1/8" in diameter. It also has the two tiniest split nut screws I've ever seen, measuring less than 3/8" in diameter.










I won't do anything with this saw right away, so I have plenty of time to think about what to do. But those are my initial thoughts anyway.


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## donwilwol

Looking forward to it Bob.


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## BigRedKnothead

Of course, they're beauties. The handles feel like silk. 









Check the figure. Gonna get better as they age.










Git my grippers just right ….and purr when they saw.










Worth every penny. I'd give Bob a bear hug if I could;-)


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## donwilwol

Very nice Red!


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## jmartel

Looks great, Red.


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## chrisstef

That moulson bob ….

What do you suppose that errosion is from? Just father time?

Id commit petty crime for a rub down of those saws red. "Looseys. Looseys fo a dolla."


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## DylanC

Earlier this fall I got hold of a few 12" H.K. Porter-era Disston No. 4s. I'm going to use these as "practice saws" for retoothing and sharpening before I go and wreck a more valuable saw. If I'm lucky, I may even end up with a usable saw before I am done. So I've got three questions:

1. Is there any good reason for me to buy a saw jointer, or can I just use a flat file to remove the old teeth? If shopping for a jointer, what should I look for?

2. What is a good saw file for sharpening? I've read Paul Sellers' opinions on Bahco and Grobet (now Glardon?), but would appreciate any additional info with a source for purchase.

3. I know these are not top-notch saws, but I'd like to put one of them in to service as a dovetail saw. I would probably shorten the plate to 10" and maybe (in the distant future) rework/replace the handle. Is there any reason these saws can't/shouldn't be modified like that?

I know I'll need a saw set, also. I'm saving those questions for a later post.

Thanks,


----------



## summerfi

Dylan, I'll give my best shot at answering your questions.

1. No, not unless you just want to. Making a saw jointer out of a block of wood and a flat file is easy. I believe Brit (Andy) has instructions for making one in one of his blogs. If you do a google search for making a saw jointer I'm sure you will find something relevant. I have a few jointers, but I never use them. I simply hold the flat file with my hands, and that works fine for me. The important thing is to make sure your toothline is absolutely straight (or consistently breasted) before starting to sharpen.

2. That is the 64 million dollar question. You could find pages and pages of debate on what is the best, or even a decent, saw file. Bahco and Grobet both have good reputations but can be expensive and/or hard to find. Honestly, if I were you I would go to ACE Hardware and pick up a Nicholson in the appropriate size. Everyone loves to criticize the made in Mexico Nicholsons, and certainly they've had their problems. I bought one recently just to see what it was like, and I was pleasantly surprised. I was able to sharpen several saws with it before the edges started to crumble, but by that time it was about worn out anyway. Perhaps the Nicholsons are getting better, I don't know. If you are just starting out and practicing on a lower quality saw, I don't see anything to lose by giving one a try. To me it doesn't make sense to buy a $15 file for a $5 saw.

3. I generally cringe at the thought of modifying an original saw, but HKP Disstons have little value anyway. If it makes the saw more useful to you, I say go for it.

Since you mentioned saw sets, I'll say a bit about that too. Most saw sets you can buy on ebay are made for handsaws. The problem is that the hammer (the pert that bends the tooth over to the anvil) is too large on these sets for a fine toothed backsaw. Your options are to grind the hammer narrower on one of these sets, or buy the blue Somax set. The blue Somax has a narrow hammer sized for fine teeth. The gold Somax is for larger teeth.


----------



## duckmilk

Dylan, I use a block of wood with a table saw kerf cut into it at 90 deg. and a single cut file jammed into the kerf. That allows me to file the teeth flat. I got my sharpening files from Lee Valley.

LJ Brit (Andy) did a whole blog on sharpening saws. Here is the one where he explains what size files to use for different tooth patterns. http://lumberjocks.com/Brit/blog/34644


----------



## WhoMe

So guys, what is a good thickness for the wood handles on saws. 4/4, 5/4, 6/4?
I don't have access to any good saws to measure today.
Thx


----------



## summerfi

I like to have my finished saw handles at 7/8". Any thinner feels flimsy, any thicker feels clunky


----------



## WhoMe

Thank you Bob, that is great info. Now to look for a fun piece of wood to play with. And I'll have to measure my saws at home too.


----------



## WhoMe

Oh and one more question. I can't remember if it was covered in this thread or not but,
Is there any defining reason for an open handle, like on a dovetail saw versus a closed handle like Red's new saws. 
Does the saw type drive the handle type, is it the size,(height) of the saw drive it out is it the hang angle that drives it?
I've never used an open handled saw and prefer the closed ones just for looks but I'm sure there is a functional reason for an open handle.


----------



## summerfi

I think it was tradition and aesthetics more than anything else. Saws under 12" were often open handled, while 12" and above were usually closed handled. However, Disston made closed handled saws as short as 8".


----------



## WhoMe

And here I thought there was more to it. Thank you Bob, appreciate it


----------



## richardwootton

Bob, the hang, fit and finish all look dead on perfect for Red's saws. Absolutely gorgeous!


----------



## TheWoodRaccoon

Good thing I found this thread! I have two "real" handsaws in my possession. I have a 26" craftsman given to me for free by a retired contractor along with some other tools. More notably, the other saw I have I found in the trash with dozens of other tools! But, it appears to be vintage, due to its shape and ornate handle. It looks similar to some English/Sheffield saws I've seen. Anybody know what it is?


----------



## summerfi

It's an American saw branded Warranted Superior. WS saws were second quality saws made by a variety of different manufacturers, so it's hard to say who made it. Your saw is probably a 1940's version by it's looks. Does it have an etch?


----------



## TheWoodRaccoon

> It s an American saw branded Warranted Superior. WS saws were second quality saws made by a variety of different manufacturers, so it s hard to say who made it. Your saw is probably a 1940 s version by it s looks. Does it have an etch?
> 
> - summerfi


I can't see one, but there might be under the rust/grime. I'll give it a vinegar soak and see..


----------



## WillliamMSP

Hey saw gurus, worth picking this up? Etching is D8 with the 8 inside of the D. Thumbhole, obviously. 12 stamped at the heel. 



























Back seems to be straight, slight curve about a third of the way in from the toe on the toothed side. Can that be gently (and easily) tapped straight?


----------



## summerfi

'Yes, definitely worth picking up if the price isn't too high. The handle looks in great shape. It shouldn't be hard to straighten the blade. 8 inside the D is the old style. The 12 stamped on the heel confuses me. The thumb holes are rip saws, and that's awfully fine teeth for a rip saw. The teeth don't look that fine in the pictures. Could it be a 5-1/2 and you're only seeing the 1/2 and thinking it's a 12?


----------



## WillliamMSP

Thanks, Bob. This is the stamp, so much as I could make it out. Definitely not 12 tpi/ppi

Price is $28. Handle looked solid, no cracks/splits.


----------



## DylanC

Bob / Duck,

Thanks for the tips. On the first saw, I've already filed the teeth down, removed the handle and spine, and (mostly) hammered out one ding in the plate. Retoothing will be done with Nicholson files, probably rip pattern at 11 tpi for cutting tenons. I may also try to remove the ugly yellow finish from the handle before I reassemble. It's just hideous.

Regarding saw sets: I've read that the Millers Falls 214 is a good tool, perhaps the equal of the Stanley 42X. And should be capable of setting a 14 tpi saw (probably what I would end up with for a dovetail saw). If a good deal can be found on the 214, is it worth picking up?


----------



## chrisstef

Wlliam - Id try and get him down to $20 but most likely because I'm cheap. Its a nice clean saw that wouldn't take much to really shine up. It doesn't look like its ever been sharpened outside of the factory either.


----------



## WillliamMSP

Thanks, stef - it's at an antique shop, so the item/stall owner probably only gave the shop an okay to discount 10% or so without authorization, but I'll see what I can do. Just wanted to be sure that it wasn't too far out of line.


----------



## donwilwol

I'm pretty sure if you put the thumbhole on EBay with a BIN if $40 it would be gone in no time.


----------



## DanKrager

Here's that 100th anniversary Atkins with a very nice handle from Putty. Thanks, man. 

















DanK


----------



## Brit

Mmmmm Shiny. Nice job Dan and Putty.

Don - I reckon that D8 would sell for a £45 BIN on ebay.co.uk. If it was cleaned up and sharpened first, you would probably get £65.


----------



## putty

That is a beauty Dan, good job! I'm glad the handle was able to work for you. How does it cut?

So when was the 100th anniversary of Atkins? Did you date the handle by the medallion?


----------



## DanKrager

When I received the blade it still had the sharpening tag on it, i.e freshly sharpened as 8 pt crosscut. I did not test cut yet, but I expect no problem. The job looks very well done. It's as close to a collector tool as I ever hope to own, though it will still get used on "special" occasions.

I haven't dated anything and don't know when the 100th anniversary actually was. Beyond my scope of interest.

DanK


----------



## jmartel

Got a couple packages in the mail tonight. Saw handle makers rasp and a 16" tenon saw kit in bronze from Blackburn tools.


----------



## DonBroussard

I'm cleaning and doing a partial restoration on my late uncle's D-95 with Tenite two-tone handle. Any tips to freshen it up, and also any don't-do tips? Thanks in advance for comments and advice.


----------



## ColonelTravis

JMart - good luck with your new saw, that's great.

I got a 12 inch carcase Blackburn saw kit and have a problem. The blade is bent (it was straight when it arrived, I did this) and I cannot straighten it. I'm kind of ticked at myself because I ordered a .20 thick plate and didn't realize it until it was too late. That's thinner than my DT saw, which is .25. I've tried straightening the back via the Paul Sellers method on YT, I've read many guides online. Any suggestions? I'm almost tempted to just order a new, thicker plate. Anyway, my first hand carved handle came out pretty nice.


----------



## summerfi

Can't wait to see your saw Jmart. It should look nice with the bronze.

Don, I've never worked on a D-95, but I think the first thing I'd try on that handle is some 0000 steel wool.

Colonel, have you seen this series of articles from Blackburn? There's a section on straightening the blade.
http://www.blackburntools.com/blog/saw-build-along-index/


----------



## jmartel

That blog does say that the plate is bent/twisted commonly and gives references on how to fix each kind. Read it all the other day.

Now the big debate rages on. Maple or Walnut?


----------



## ColonelTravis

I have read that blog and agree with these two sentences 150tenelevntybillion968,000 percent!



> I deal with each of these defects individually, and in the order listed above. Trying to correct them all at once, or in a random manner, can be a frustrating experience.


I'll keep plugging away.


----------



## ColonelTravis

Can't go wrong with either for a handle - great wood. I've come up with a lame but easy system - dark wood handle for crosscut saws, light wood for rip.


----------



## jmartel

That was the plan as well, travis. Just hadn't decided which wood for which filing type.


----------



## ColonelTravis

I got my crotch walnut like yours at Woodcraft, which has a bin that is filled up every now and then with that stuff for a decent price. Sometimes I go in there and everything is picked over. Don't know when they refill it, but one day I went in and found some incredible pieces. Grabbed several immediately for handles and serving trays.


----------



## TheFridge

I need piece like that 7×1-3/4×12. ********************e is expensive.


----------



## terryR

> Now the big debate rages on. Maple or Walnut?
> 
> - jmartel


Depends on how dirty your hands get in the shop. My maple totes show the dirt and oil from the walnut ones.

Maple looks like LN made it; walnut looks custom.


----------



## DanKrager

Wouldn't it be a dream if everyone agreed that dark is crosscut and light is rip (or vice versa) so that when we trade saws the pattern doesn't get screwed up in each others tills? I like the idea of some sort of visual indicator because even though I don't have so many saws I can't be familiar with them, it's just that as distractions cause "memory fade" it gets confusing! Shoot, I might even have trouble remembering light and dark!!! 

DanK


----------



## summerfi

Terry makes a good point about light colored handles getting dirty. As an alternative you could do something like Two Lawyers does on their saws. They inlay a mother of pearl dot on the top of their handles for decoration (see picture). You could inlay one shape for rip and another shape for crosscut. It would be easy to tell which is which in the till.


----------



## ToddJB

Or you could just use a Sharpe to put giant Xs on your CCs likely one of my previous owners did.


----------



## daddywoofdawg

Or even brass screws for one type,and stainless for the other.Maybe as restores/makers/users we should set a standard.
Light wood/brass screws indicate:
Dark wood/shiny metal/stainless/chrome indicate: 
May take awhile but one day we could think we set a standard.


----------



## racerglen

Heck my boys were giving me "sh-" for the dull saws I had before going on a binge and getting a bunch done. It came to a point where couldn't remember what had been done and my fingers can't always tel..lol….SHARPIE ! Just a small "s" where oft times there's a TPI indicator at the heel of the plate..I'm sure various old farts can relate ;-) now as to rip and crosscut..


----------



## theoldfart

^ I resemble that remark Glen


----------



## BigRedKnothead

> Now the big debate rages on. Maple or Walnut?
> 
> - jmartel
> 
> Depends on how dirty your hands get in the shop. My maple totes show the dirt and oil from the walnut ones.
> 
> Maple looks like LN made it; walnut looks custom.
> 
> - terryR


I've used crotch walnut before on saw handles. The primary concern is the grain direction. Crotch grain goes every which way, and you don't want short grain on a lambs tongue.


----------



## TheFridge

I need me some for 8 chisel handles. Mm mmmm


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## racerglen

Now Kevin, old farts was used in a generic or geriatric sense.. ;-)


----------



## theoldfart

Geriatric sounds about right!


----------



## DonBroussard

Just in case any of you ever take apart a D-95, you might want to be aware that the tote is in two parts. Also, note that there are alignment holes in the plate and tote for reassembly:


----------



## IsaacS

ColonelTravis, can you send me a PM with your email address (I don't have enough posts to send PM's yet).


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## terryR

Trying to not laugh about sharpie marks on a saw plate…and don't ask why…

Wow, love that 2Lawyers saw. As much as I enjoy brass/rosewood on a tool, nothing looks as sharp as black wood and stainless steel to me. I doubt the plate or back is SS, but looks sweet all polished and shiny. I just love SS since it stays that way!

too bad it's a nightmare to heat treat.

Hmmm….2 parts for a tote? A method to avoid cutting that slot for the plate! How tight does it feel in use, Don?


----------



## DonBroussard

Terry-I haven't finished working on the D-95 yet but I can tell you that the handle is very comfortable. I haven't tries d cutting with it yet since it's pretty dull. The two-part tote looks like a great way to get a clean slot for the plate.


----------



## ColonelTravis

PM sent, Isaac - now that's service!


----------



## chrisstef

Bravo isaac.


----------



## Brit

Nice to you on the epic thread Isaac.


----------



## ColonelTravis

Public thank you to Isaac, who let me exchange the thin plate for a slightly thicker plate, which makes me more comfortable about having the best tool for me to use. Talked to him on the phone and he went over some things to look for in assembling his saw kits, which I appreciated. He's got an excellent build-along series on his site, if you're apprehensive about making a saw, don't be, it's a terrific guide and I suggest you check out what's he's got to offer. I'll order again in a heartbeat. Just need to figure out what saw comes next.

Kudos to Blackburn Tools!


----------



## theoldfart

Glad it worked out Colonel


----------



## Frustrator

Been searching for a used backsaws here in Sweden for about 2 years…finally found one.









Also got 2 Sandvik 277 saws in the deal


----------



## summerfi

Looks good Frustrator. Who is the backsaw made by?


----------



## Frustrator

I thought that sanderson brothers made saws in the 50s but it have split nuts..


----------



## Sarahsliefie

What a hall!


----------



## donwilwol

This is on a Phenix Saw which I now know we're made by Atkins. Google doesn't seem to want to cough up any info on this etch. Any help from you saw guys?

The medallion is Pheniz Parented Warranted. The etch seems to say "The Cortlandt Saw" the second line is Warranted. Third line is (and this is somewhat of a guess) Cortlandt Saw Manufacturing Co. There is a forth line with Cortlandt in it but I can't read anything else, and the last line is New York NY


----------



## chrisstef

Push.

Cortland park is an area either in or just outside of manhatten don. Try looking for a cortland hardware store.


----------



## donwilwol

> Push.
> 
> Cortland park is an area either in or just outside of manhatten don. Try looking for a cortland hardware store.
> 
> - chrisstef


Is there a difference in Cortland and Cortlandt? I can find some references to Cortland, but not so much Cortlandt. I've found there was a Cortlandt Hardware, so I'm assuming it's a saw made by Atkins for them. I just haven't found when they were in business. I find it interesting it was were the twin towers were.


----------



## chrisstef

Yea i think theres a difference don. I think cortland is upstate and cortlandt is in the city. It rang a bell to me via van cortlandt park where i had an ex who was a runner and ran x-country races there.

Cortland st was known as radio row from like the 20's to the 60's when theu demo'd it for the towers. Ill link some stuff i found a bit after i get the midget to bed.


----------



## Mosquito

Resawing by hand…









Woof.

Bandsaws aren't that expensive, right? ....


----------



## donwilwol

this is about all I can find. http://nyheritage.nnyln.org/cdm/ref/collection/p16124coll2/id/24088


----------



## TheFridge

That is nice mos.


----------



## racerglen

@Mos.. right..


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## Mosquito

I tell you what, they look cheaper after that… and the other one I'll probably end up doing later lol


----------



## WillliamMSP

Sounds like a good reason to get that Bad Axe kerfing plane and frame saw kit, eh?


----------



## Mosquito

It's been on the want list for a while actually… Unfortunately I don't have the time to build them at the moment :-/ Still would like to some day though


----------



## Brit

I bought one of the Gramercy kits a few weeks ago Mos and a lovely piece of quartersawn English beech to make it from. I don't know when I'll get around to making it though, so this weekend I settled for restoring a little E. T. Roberts & Lee turning saw. The spacing between the arms is 8 1/4" housing a pinned blade with 5 1/2" of teeth. I didn't take any photos of the condition before I started on it, but the restoration basically involved sanding each piece back to bare wood with P80, then P180, then P240 grit sandpaper to remove the disgusting yellow gloss varnish that had been slapped all over it. All the curves were poorly shaped so I refined them and eased all of the sharp edges. Both of the blade holders had been inserted into the handles wonky, so I removed both of them, enlarged the holes slightly and epoxied them in straight. I finished it with Lord Sheraton's wood balsam. It is now a joy to hold and use.


----------



## theoldfart

Andy, fine looking turning saw. Lord Sheratons wood balsam? If Stef or Tony made that statement I would have chuckled at some off color thought. I assume a wax of some sort?


----------



## Brit

Yes it is Kev. Pure beeswax, pine turpentine and linseed oil. It has the consistency of butter and you just wipe it on and then wipe it off after a couple of minutes. I usually apply two coats. No runs, no bubbles, no insects, no dust nibs, just silky smooth wood.


----------



## Mosquito

looks great Andy! I didn't know Gramercy made a frame saw kit (Roubo frame saw)


----------



## Brit

Oh sorry, I thought you wanted to make a turning saw. My bad.

I bought a frame saw like that off of ebay.co.uk. I haven't restored it yet though. So many projects, so little time.


----------



## Mosquito

know how that goes lol

Both will someday find their way into my shop, hopefully


----------



## theoldfart

Thanks Andy, think I'll check Amazon for it.


----------



## richardwootton

> Sounds like a good reason to get that Bad Axe kerfing plane and frame saw kit, eh?
> 
> - WillliamMSP


William, I've been wanting to build that thing for a while now. A lot of my stock is between 8-12/4. But boy, a nice bandsaw would sure make that work easier!


----------



## terryR

That's a lovely saw, Andy.

Been watching Tom Fidgen the past week…makes me want to fine tune the bandsaw! LOL. Strong work, Mos, and the cut looks fabulous!


----------



## donwilwol

Today's project.


----------



## bandit571

maybe in Cleveland, they do things a bit differently?









20" long, 10ppi, panel saw. brand name in the very readable etch? Clearcut.

It did a decent enough job as a rip for dovetails.

Branded for some Hardware Supplier up in Cleveland, OH. WS on the medallion.


----------



## summerfi

I picked these saw blades up recently. I was wondering if anyone has seen any exactly like these, or knows what their original purpose was. Frame saw, bow saw, buck saw, coping saw for Paul Bunyon? They are 31-1/4" pin to pin and 1" wide. Three are 8 ppi and one is 10 ppi, and they are all rip. In spite of the rust, they appear to have never been used. I think the rust would clean off. I see no name on them.


----------



## Tim457

Looks just like the blades for some butcher's meat saws I saw today. Basically a long hacksaw. I didn't check the ppi but it seemed to be about the same as yours. Seemed too fine toothed for a butchers saw to me, but I've never used one or seen one used.


----------



## summerfi

I thought about that Tim, but they seemed awfully long for a butcher's saw. Maybe not though.


----------



## terryR

Our Mound saw is 18 or 20"; I cannot remember.










Don, that's a great looking vise!


----------



## Brit

Don - That looks pretty beefy. I bet you don't get much vibration with that saw vise.

Bob - My guess is that they are frame saw blades.


----------



## theoldfart

Bob, i have one vintage meat saw. The blade is 10 3/4 at the tooth line. about 11ppi.



























They are nowhere near the length of yours.

Given they're length, any chance they are from an Ulmia style mitre saw?

Edit: just looked at a number of mitre saw pics and the blades are perforated and the pin is in the handle so I guess frame saw is a better conclusion.


----------



## summerfi

Could be Andy. The teeth look just like handsaw teeth. I would have thought frame saw blades would be wider though. Maybe I'll make a frame saw out of one of them and see how it works.

Don, is that a new vise? You should do a blog on it. It looks pretty fancy.


----------



## Brit

I've seen butchers saws in catalogues with 26" blades, but not 30".


----------



## bandit571

I put the Cleveland saw back up on the hook, I did find that No.4…..it had fallen off the bench, and was trying to hide in amongst all the shavings. Got it back onto the bench..









Did get a few things done with it today, finally..









Three sets of dovetails, enough to assemble a small "box" 









Even had two stopped dados to dig out…









After that saw did the sides.


----------



## Brit

Looks like you've been busy Bandit. Well done.


----------



## donwilwol

Bob, meat saw was my first thought on the blades.

Yea, I made the vise today. I didn't take any progress pictures. It was a design as I go deal.

Andy, I wanted it heavy. One of the things I hate about the steel vises is the vibration.

This is the first step in taking this saw thing more serious. I figured out today, I've got a boat load of D-8s.


----------



## donwilwol

Thought I had a.meat saw that long, but I read it wrong.


----------



## putty

Bob, I was at an old meat market a while ago. They have old butcher tools hanging on the wall. One was a 2 handed long bone saw. They said it was for breaking down a carcass. It was probably about 30" long


----------



## johnstoneb

x1, putty.

When I was growing up when we butchered a neighbor would bring over a saw for spitting the carcass. It looked like an over grown hacksaw and it would make short work of the spine on a steer. Almost as fast as a chainsaw and without the oil. It was all of 30 inches long.


----------



## daddywoofdawg

Yes, but I think we want to hear more about when we butchered a neighbor. lol


----------



## terryR

TOF, is that a meat saw or a surgeon's saw?
Or is there a difference?
LOL.


----------



## theoldfart

Terry, got me. Don't think a wood handle would have been a surgeons choice!


----------



## Brit

The early ones did Kevin.


----------



## CL810

If anyone is interested in this ole box it's yours for the postage


----------



## theoldfart

Andy, really! Great place to hide germs and the like.


----------



## ColonelTravis

> - Brit


Beauty restore. Is that one smaller than the Grammercy? About three minutes ago a Knew Concepts fret saw arrived in the mail. About one minute ago I used it.

Hype is real!


----------



## TheFridge

Yeah colonel I got one for Christmas. It's legit.


----------



## DylanC

Has anyone here used molasses as a rust remover? I've been looking online tonight and have seen that a 10:1 water/molasses mixture works wonders on heavily rusted parts. Similar to Evapo-Rust, but cheaper and slower (days to weeks of soak time). Not that I don't trust Google and YouTube, but I was hoping a few LJs could offer some experiences. This seemed like a good thread to start the search.


----------



## TheFridge

I'm gonna get one of those big honking meat saws. Just point me at an animal…


----------



## kwigly

Dylan, molasses worked quite well when I tried it. Cheap to get in bulk, at my local animal feed store. I used a 5 gal pail of mix and suspended rusty stuff to hang in there on a wire for a few days. 
It has a distinct aroma that you may or may not like, and a nasty looking scum formed on top of the mix. But the metal bits came out with a blackish coating of ex-rust that scrubbed off fairly easily to reveal the bare steel below.
I used it for plane parts, and you'd need a deeper or wider container for saw blades so that you can cover the entire blade (otherwise you'd get a hard-to-remove line at the surface level of the mix)


----------



## kwigly

Bob
I have a frame saw with a blade similar to the ones you have, 29-1/2" between the pins (but only 3/4" wide), filed rip. Pins are not part of the blade like yours.
I looked at a similar frame saw at the local Pioneer Village this week, and it has a 30" x 1" rip blade, also with separate pins and blade.
Your blades with pins attached makes me think of a metal frame, but making a wooden frame for them could be fun.


----------



## summerfi

Thanks for that info kwigly. I can't see myself ever really using a frame saw, but it might be fun to make. One more thing added to the list.


----------



## shampeon

Dylan: citric acid powder is probably cheaper than molasses (and Evaporust), and can be mixed to any strength you want. It's got to be less of a mess and easier to store, too. I got a 10 pound bag that will likely be used by my kids. Brewers supply stores have it. I ordered mine online from a natural foods store.


----------



## ToddJB

^agreed. Only my local brew shop only had tiny bottles. I bought a big bag off Amazon.


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

I keep a five gallon square plastic pail with a flip top full of the citric acid solution , very inexpensive and works great. I think the molasses could be a good spot de-ruster as you could keep the piece coated or in a situation where you don't want to disassemble. I've found on saw plates that the citric really opens the pitting pores up and I don't like the finished product.


----------



## chrisstef

I agree with Turtle. Citric on saws isn't very good. I'm not a huge fan of evapo or CLR on saw either. 90% of the time is straight man power and sand paper.


----------



## shampeon

Yeah, that's true. Since you're going to have to polish it up with sandpaper anyway, using any chemical rust-eater on a saw plate isn't the best idea.


----------



## Mosquito

I usually use naval jelly and steel wool as a first treatment and then go with sandpaper from there.


----------



## summerfi

Since the topic of cleaning saw plates has come up, I thought I'd share with the group some of the things I've tried and some things I've learned.

Sandpaper, of course, either wet or dry, is the tried and true method. If you're only doing a few saws, this is a fine method. If you're doing a lot of saws, like I seem to have gotten myself into, then it's a lot of work. Sandpaper can also get expensive if you're doing a lot of saws, so I've pretty much gone to other methods.

If a saw is really rusty, I first clean it off with a wire brush on the grinder. Don't use an aggressive wire brush on an angle grinder, as that would probably leave swirl marks. I've never done that, but I've seen saws that had it done to them, and it wasn't pretty. A standard 6" round brush on a grinder doesn't leave any marks.

If there's a lot of rust afterwards, then I sometimes use Evapo-rust. I'll soak small saws in it, but I just paint it on large saws that are hard to fit in a container. It dries on them, so I usually paint them 2 or 3 times and leave overnight. This kills most of the rust.

If you're using sandpaper, you have to go through the progression of grits until you get to the state of polish that you're happy with. The first alternative I tried for eliminating some of the finer grits was the Scotchbrite round balls pictured below (They are worn, so they don't look very round now). I got these at HF and they come in two grits, 180 and 400. I used them in a regular corded drill. They work pretty good, but the thing I don't like about them is the scratch marks they leave are not in a linear pattern. Even if you move the drill in a linear pattern, something about the physics of the shape and construction of these leaves marks is a crisscrossing angled pattern. For the average guy who is just going to use a saw in his shop, they probably would be OK.









The next thing I tried was a 2-1/2" diameter hard cotton cylinder (Amazon) with buffing compound. Of course you can buy buffing compound in various grits, and the finer grits will polish a saw plate like a mirror. There are some disadvantages to this. The shinier the plate, the more every little scratch shows up. I prefer a slight satin finish, which I've tried to achieve with a black compound that is the coarsest that you can buy. It still is a little too shiny for me, but not bad. On new saws, after removing the bluing from the 1095 spring steel, I buff with this and never touch it with sandpaper. As a side note, I'm very unhappy with the quality of finish on new 1095 spring steel. Nearly all of it has marks in it that look sort of like coarse sanding marks. Much of it has occasional defects where it looks like there were particles of something on the rollers when the steel was rolled out. Often it has scratches from poor handling at the factory. I currently have a 25' piece of .018 steel that is so scratched it looks like they drug it across the parking lot behind a pickup. I recently cut 8 saw plates out of this piece, and only 3 were usable due to the scratches. I think it all comes from the same factory, so switching retailers wouldn't buy me anything. Very frustrating.









I tried using automotive rubbing compound on saw plates, but that was a waste of time. It left the plate too shiny. I've thought about trying valve grinding compound, but haven't so far.









Not long ago I bought these gizmos at HF. I've been impressed with how well they work. I use them ON EDGE in a corded drill. There is a coarse one and a fine one. The coarse one will clean up the dirtiest, rustiest plate to about the equivalent of what 220 grit sandpaper would do, but much faster and easier. The fine one will finish the job to about the equivalent of 400 grit sandpaper. When they start to get worn, their marks begin to be non-linear similar to the round balls, but not nearly as bad. One nice thing about these is they clean out the bottom of pitting better than anything else I've found. I would recommend these as an alternative to sanding for most people. One note about corded drills. These methods are hard on them because you are applying side pressure for long periods of time. I'm on my third drill, but it's no biggie because I pick them up for $2-$3 at yard sales.









In the never ending search for better methods, I've recently tried this one. I don't have enough experience with it yet to have an opinion. I bought some 600 grit powdered aluminum oxide abrasive from Amazon and mixed it with automotive car wax, then applied it to one of the cotton cylinders. The one time I used it, it seemed to work about the same as the black buffing compound. I might try some 320 grit powder at some point. If you try this, be sure to mark your wax container so you don't accidentally use it on your car.









I have recently ordered two 8" x 1" silicon carbide impregnated convolute deburring wheels. I will stack these on an arbor and chuck them in the drill press. Then put a saw plate against a backer board and run it down the wheels. At least one custom saw maker uses this method for polishing his plates.









One cautionary note. I wouldn't try any of these methods on a saw etch. I think fine sandpaper on a wooden block is still the say to go there.

Sorry for the long post. Hopefully some will find it helpful. If you're just polishing one saw for use in your own shop it's not a big deal. But if you're restoring or making saws for sale, they need to look consistent and look flawless. Achieving that has been one of the hardest things about saw making for me. I think I've gotten better at it though. If you have any thoughts about other methods that may work, please share.


----------



## donwilwol

I got this monster on an electric motor. It works pretty well but holding the saw is a pain, I am thinking of building a table under it so I can slide the saw through it like you would a sander.

I like the idea of stacking the deburring wheels. I never thought of that.


----------



## ToddJB

That is so freaking helpful, Bob. Thank you for taking the time to do that.

You will LOVE those deburring wheels. I have one on a random motor strapped to my bench at all times. For you use case it they will last you forever. I use mine on anything I restore. They will heat up the metal, so know that.

I just tried to look up thse little wire wheels by searching "wheels" and didn't find them at HF. Know what they're called?

And is this the cylinder set up?


----------



## ToddJB

Don, how wide is that? Amazon says it's .14", which cannot be correct.


----------



## ColonelTravis

Bob, great summary. I've got a few rusty plates that need work, this will help a lot.
Thanks


----------



## DLK

Bob I have a friend also named Bob who does restorations for various antique dealers. He scrapes the plate with a raiser scraper. i.e one of these:
data:image/jpeg;base64,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


----------



## DLK

Has anyone tried the aluminum foil and autosol trick?


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## ToddJB

Don, I have used both of the above. Scraping is my go to for cast iron surfaces, but I've found with saw plates if you don't switch blades out often you can easily gouge the plate.

I've not been impressed with the aluminum foil/autosol


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## ToddJB

Bob - found the wheels under a different category,

http://www.harborfreight.com/4-inch-150-grit-shaft-mounted-wheel-brush-91372.html

http://www.harborfreight.com/4-in-80-grit-nylon-abrasive-wheel-with-14-in-shank-60325.html


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## ksSlim

autosol n foil is great for final polish!
Takes more grit to get to the polish state.


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## donwilwol

> Don, how wide is that? Amazon says it s .14", which cannot be correct.
> 
> - ToddJB


its 2" wide

Edit…

Product Dimensions 
10.5×10.3×1.9 inches

I'm not actually sure what the third measurment is!


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## summerfi

Todd, yes, that's the cylinder and those are the wheels. Just be sure to use the wheels on edge or they will leave swirl marks.


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## Mosquito

> Don, how wide is that? Amazon says it s .14", which cannot be correct.
> 
> - ToddJB


.14" is the wire size, its equivalent to 'grit'


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## putty

Bob, thanks for putting that together. I chuck a wire wheel on my lathe.


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## shampeon

Yeah, tried the polish/aluminum trick, and it's not that it doesn't work, it just didn't do the job any better than a sanding block and wet/dry sandpaper.


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## bandit571

Been using a palm sander and a few grits of sandpaper…..100 to start on the rust, 400 wet or dry to finish up. I use a bit of WD40 under the wetor dry stuff.


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## ToddJB

> Yeah, tried the polish/aluminum trick, and it s not that it doesn t work, it just didn t do the job any better than a sanding block and wet/dry sandpaper.
> 
> - shampeon


That more clearly states what I was thinking.


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## paulm12

Dylan: I am not very good yet at tool restoration, but I do like molasses for rust removal. It is very cheap, I got a gallon jug for a few dollars, and mix around 10:1. It takes a while, can can smell a bit, but it will not eat away at good metal like acidic baths can. (you can google the "chelating" process for the rust removal) I had a few dozen bolts with nuts that had sat in water for a few weeks (basement flood, not mine) and then sat in a plastic tub just rusting away for years. I would not have believed anything could have got those nuts off the bolts, but the molasses bath did. It took over 2 months for a few of them, and of course, the bolts were no longer usable, but eventually all came loose.


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## DylanC

I've used a 10% solution of citric acid at work for cleaning hard water scale and sludge/mineral deposits from the inside of heat exchangers, but it's hard on steel and iron. Evan ran a little experiment by weighing some samples pieces of various metals on our lab scale and then soaking them in 50% citric acid for a few weeks. Reweighed them after to estimate the loss of metal mass. Not so bad for stainless, copper or aluminum if I remember correctly, but significant losses of the iron and steel samples. And it will absolutely destroy anything galvanized. We had to stop using it for some things because of the chemical corrosion on these materials.

Granted, these tests/uses were at exposures and concentrations not typically seen in your average shop, but the chemical reaction is still occurring, just at a slower, managed rate. That's why the use of molasses has piqued my interest. Especially for cast iron. Also good to know that I'm not the only one just "slaving away" with sandpaper and wire brushes.


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## ToddJB

Looking for flush cut trim saw suggestions. Sell me.


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## esmthin

I recently was given a few saws by a friend of my grandpa. The first is a Keen Kutter No. 88. The second a Disston No. 12. The best of the three, and the one I'm most excited about, is a NOS Sandvik No. 270.


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## TheFridge

Wow. Someone actually took care of their saws. Nice.

Edit: maybe that's a bit harsh on the folks that used them a bunch.


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## ToddJB

Those look tremendous. Stunning saws


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## terryR

That may be the nicest 12 I've seen; beautiful condition.
You're a lucky guy, Ethan!


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## daddywoofdawg

saidaemilia: that's spam for ted's


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## chrisstef

So fresh and so clean, clean. Dayum.


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## WillliamMSP

So here's the progress thus far on that D8 that I picked up a few weeks when I was in VA (I ended up getting it for $25) -










There's still a tiny bit of a wave in tooth line a few inches from the end of the toe, but I'll keep at it.


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## JayT

Nice job, Bill. The grain in that handle is really eye catching.


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## summerfi

Very nice Bill!


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## bandit571

While cleaning up the saw till….found a fret saw in the coping saw till…It has a Millers Falls logo stamped in the metal arm, and seems to be a "No.2" and takes pin-less scrollsaw blades.

Was there a "No.1" out there as well? Handle is some dark reddish wood, brass ferrel. NO RUST anywhere on this one…Photos when I can get to it…

Which direction should the teeth go when the blade is installed?


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## TheFridge

The one fret saw I have is a pull.


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## bandit571

Couple photos, seems I paid about a dollar bill for this one….yard sale find last year..









About a foot in length 









Found some thumbscrews for it, it used to have slotted screws…









It says "No.2 ( Millers falls diamond logo) Millers Falls Co. Millers Falls MASS USA
Has a Bosch Scroll Saw blade in it now…


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## shampeon

Nice score, Bandit. Those are good saws.


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## kwigly

Bandit,
there is a No.1 Millers Falls fret saw for you to search for for your collec.. oops, "toolkit"

The 1939 catalog, p126, notes the No.1 as "The frame in this set is white nickeled and has japanned iron handle. Otherwise the set is identical with No.2" "price $1.10"

This catalog (and many others) available courtesy of Blackburn Tools at http://www.blackburntools.com/articles/rose-tools-catalog-archives/index.html


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## DanKrager

I mount my fret and hack saw blades to cut on the pull stroke. The blade stays straight under the tension. If mounted the other way, the frame can flex a bit and allow slack in the blade leading to trouble. 
DanK


----------



## Pimzedd

I've been watching this thread for a year or so to try and learn a little bit about hand saws. I go to estate sales almost every weekend, usually looking for planes, both woodworking and model. See LOTS of saws and have bought a couple but nothing to get excited about. Found this back saw this morning. I think I did good but want to see what those of you who have much more knowledge think.










The handle shape aroused my interest.










Then I turned it over and saw the split nuts.










I saw that the medallion said Disston. The price, $15 so I bought it.

When I got it home and looked closer I saw it said Dissoton and SON.










Then I looked up the logo on the back of the saw and on the medallion on the Disston Institute site. It said between 1865 and 1871.

So what do you think? What do I do with it now? Clean it or leave it? Keep it or sell it?


----------



## ToddJB

You did real well. That is a great saw in great condition. The one son is a lot less common. Is that 12"?

I'm sure there are plenty on here that would be happy to double your money.


----------



## putty

Sell it, I'll give you your money back

That is know as an inchworm saw by the name stamp. It also appears to be a one son model. the saw is in amazing shape and only needs a cleaning and sharpening. It looks like the handle has never been taken off.

I would clean it up and use it!

If you do sell it I get first dibs!


----------



## shampeon

The unifying rule of thumb & split nuts: if you see a thumbhole or split nuts, it's worth a second look. That's a very nice find for $15. Nice score, and the older brother of these guys:


----------



## chrisstef

Split nut, one son, inchworm, not busted upper horn and nary a paint splatter …. Fuggin drooolllll.

The V notch is my favorite handle, hands down.


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

I'll trade you $8 and two RCA clock radios for it .!


----------



## TheFridge

12.50$ and a bag of Doritos. Cool ranch.


----------



## putty

20.00 and Fridge's new baby


----------



## summerfi

Bill - Any day you get a $100+ saw for $15 is a good day. You got a very nice saw for a very nice price. Keep or sell? That's your decision. But these other guys are low balling you. If you decide to sell I'll triple your money.


----------



## chrisstef

Beers and qualudes on me …










Whatta ya say bill?


----------



## Pimzedd

Thanks for all the offers. Will have to give them some thought. If the Doritos were nacho flavored, Fridge might have the edge.

Thanks Bob. I have had a contact from a LJ with a serious offer. Told him I needed to hear from Bob first.

ToddJB, it is 14 in. long.


----------



## CL810

Bill I have same saw only one generation earlier - no '& son.' Here's how it looks after a clean up. I use it regularly.


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

I might fatten my offer up with a 5# box of government cheese but you will have to wait to the first of the month.


----------



## TheFridge

Alright fine. 13$. Spicy nacho Doritos. And a HJ. Don't make me beg…


----------



## Random591

And yet another post so I can spend money on here by messaging someone.


----------



## richardwootton

> Alright fine. 13$. Spicy nacho Doritos. And a HJ. Don t make me beg…
> 
> - TheFridge


Andrew, let's get beers one of these days. I've been thinking about moving to Nola/south weezeeanna, is it worth it?


----------



## donwilwol

You guys are killing me. I'll up the ante, $10, a 6 pack of Genny, and a bag of pork rinds, just to show I'm serious to.


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

Dropping my auction paddle, too rich for me. Besides I just ate a bowl of hot peach cobbler/ with ice cream and my minds clear of saws.


----------



## donwilwol

I'm glad you ate that hot peach cobbler, that would have been tough to beat.


----------



## Tim457

Great idea Don. I've been using a paper template printout for fleam, but it's not ideal, and yours combines a rake guide too.


----------



## summerfi

Looks like about 20 degrees.


----------



## TheFridge

About the beer. sure bud, gimme a holler if you're ever out this way. I am leaving the Doritos at home though.

If you're serious, it depends on the opportunities you're looking for really.

Edit: you had to do it don? Beer and pork rinds? How the hell are we supposed to follow that?


----------



## Pimzedd

Beer sounds good. Pork rinds? You might have to put them in a potato chip bag so no one in my house will open them and look inside.

Went back to the sale this morning. Bought a hand saw. No medallion but nice old handle. Will post a photo later. Also got a late model no. 7 Stanley plane in good condition.


----------



## donwilwol

Two D8s finished up.


----------



## summerfi

Looks good Don. How's the new vise working?


----------



## donwilwol

Its working well Bob….

Another Distton. A D23


----------



## putty

Pimzedd,

I'm surprised that you can find anything in your area…You have that Dowd guy in your backyard that buys up everything!


----------



## Pimzedd

Putty, Yes I know Lynn Dowd. He is a LJ but only shows up on here occasionally when he wants to announce a show at which he will be setting up.

He shows up sometimes at sales I go to, usually the first guy in line. If I see him, I usually saw hello and turn around and go home because he will get the good stuff. I did get my first Stanley 45 that he had missed at a sale we were at together.

Have you ever been to one of his backyard sales?

I am surprised he was not at the sale yesterday where I found the saw.


----------



## summerfi

There is a guy in my town that goes to EVERY yard or estate sale that has tools. The guy must have ESP or something because when they start letting people in, he makes a mad dash to the exact spot where the good tools are and scoops them all up before I can even get there. It would be funny if it wasn't so frustrating.


----------



## TheFridge

Bob, I bet Tanya Harding could give some good recommendations on how to fix that problem.


----------



## putty

Bill, is he usually with his wife?...in my opinion she has unnatural beauty…something about her smooth skin with her grey hair. I've seen them at the woodcraft store.


----------



## summerfi

Fridge, my strategy for next year is to follow close behind him and just before he gets to the tools, stick out my foot and trip him.


----------



## summerfi

I saw a mention of this saw on DonW's saw facebook page, so I thought I'd post it here as well. No, your eyes aren't playing tricks on you. This is a painted panther head saw. Here's a link to a Popular Woodworking article about this saw. http://www.popularwoodworking.com/article/the-painted-panther


----------



## Pimzedd

Putty, have not seen her at any of the sales. I have seen her at their sales at Woodcraft and Wood World just to see what neat things he has. She makes an sells pies. Good pies!

I know Lynn on a first name basis. He is a good source of information. I bought a Stanley #42 at an auction and did not know what it was. I went to Lynn and he knew quite a bit about it. Turned out it was a type 1 from around 1865.

Bob, if he is at a sale, he also knows where to go.


----------



## DLK

How much would pay for a thumb-hole D8 with broken top horn? It is otherwise in pretty good shape, i.e. it must have been cleaned and the cleaner did a good job. Some pitting on the plate. Etch is still visible. It has been dropped off at an antique/consignment shop and has yet to be priced. I told them to let me know when they had priced it.


----------



## TheFridge

> Fridge, my strategy for next year is to follow close behind him and just before he gets to the tools, stick out my foot and trip him.
> 
> - summerfi


and then tell him the tools are spoken for and that's his first warning


----------



## Brit

Am I the only one who thinks that Panther saw should be restored to its former glory and used?


----------



## Brit

> Two D8s finished up.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Don W


Nice work Don. Looks like you've got the saw bug as well as the plane bug.


----------



## donwilwol

I said a while ago Andy, this year is the year of the saw. Now that I fixed up a decent vise and did a little reading, I Don't hate sharpening nearly as much. I've been rereading some of your blogs.

We need a chart (like the spreadsheet of your back saws) of recommendations on fleam, rake and slope for all different kinds of Saws.


----------



## chrisstef

For the love of rake and fleam, a painted panther! I just shed a tear.


----------



## donwilwol

Think of it as well protected Stef.


----------



## TheFridge

Oh the humanity…


----------



## donwilwol

> How much would pay for a thumb-hole D8 with broken top horn? It is otherwise in pretty good shape, i.e. it must have been cleaned and the cleaner did a good job. Some pitting on the plate. Etch is still visible. It has been dropped off at an antique/consignment shop and has yet to be priced. I told them to let me know when they had priced it.
> 
> - Combo Prof


The prices on these vary a lot. I have seen them from $3 to $100. If its in good shape and you can get it for less than $40, I think it would be fair.


----------



## Brit

*Don* - it isn't easy to create a chart like that because the angles that seem to work in terms of rake, fleam and slope can't be looked at in isolation IMO. As you know, different saws have different handle hang angles and this alone can greatly influence whether the rake, fleam and slope angle feel right or not. The type of wood you're cutting can also make a big difference and there are other factors too. Having said that, maybe the charts I presented towards the end of my saw sharpening video will help. You can download them as PDFs from my Dropbox, but they don't cover slope I'm afraid.

http://lumberjocks.com/comments/1808946


----------



## donwilwol

Thanks Andy. I'll download them when I get back to a computer. I rewatched your video again a couple nights ago. You really did a great job. I will admit, I skip ahead a few times, I was looking to see what I may have forgot.


----------



## DLK

Thanks *Don W*. I hope I hear a good price from them. I've never paid locally more then $5 for a saw. So don't know what to expect. But glad you wrote back otherwise I might have passed it up if it was priced at $40.


----------



## terryR

Nice work, Don. That thumbhole LOOKS sharp!

Still cannot thank Andy enough for producing that video. Masterfully done and jammed full of information.

I was cleaning in the back reaches of my shop last week, and tripped over my dusty saw vise. Oh, how embarrassing!


----------



## Brit

Imagine how much I skip Don!


----------



## summerfi

> Am I the only one who thinks that Panther saw should be restored to its former glory and used?
> 
> - Brit


Nope!

+1 to Andy's great sharpening video. IMO it is the single best resource for learning to sharpen that exists in the world.

Terry, my offer is still open to come for a visit and I'll teach you to sharpen. I can also show you what snow looks like.


----------



## Brit

Wow! Thanks Bob. I did the best I could do with what I had to work with. It is nice to see that there are other option out there on YouTube now too.

*Terry *- You should take Bob up on that generous offer.


----------



## theoldfart

^ shoulda packed myself with those saws Bob! I'd like to see snow too


----------



## SuppressiveFire

That's the hand saw sharpening video I've seen Brit!


----------



## Tim457

A painted Panther. I shed a manly tear too. Unlike the Schwarz and people mentioned in the article, I don't see the higher quality art in that one. Good news is that article mentions it would clean up into near mint shape if the paint were stripped. Paint keeps the rust off as long as they don't go at it with a sander.

Andy that is some great info. Thanks for putting it together.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

+1 to restore the panther….and the art is not all that great.

It frustrates me that people don't do a tiny bit of research on an obviously unique antique before they violate it. end rant.


----------



## donwilwol

So I got an Atkins all cleaned up an was ready to sharpen it, but setting the teeth breaks them. I've heard saw plates can get brittle but I had not seen it. I assume this plate is doomed to scratch stock right?

I've also got a thumbhole with a few missing teeth. I'm guessing I better make sure its not the same. What's the best way to make sure its OK?


----------



## WillliamMSP

I mean, I don't think that it's fantastic, but I do think that it's very Americana. In any event, art is in the eye of the beholder. Watch a little Antiques Roadshow and you'll be shocked at the prices that folk art can command. As far as restoring it or not… meh. I mean, I assume that it's just going to sit in a display cabinet either way, right? I can still appreciate the handle and the form of the saw, overall, even if the plate is painted. Given that it can be pretty easily cleaned, I'd probably leave it in that condition, too - I think that it necessarily detracts from the story of the saw.

Now, if I were given a user saw with a similar painting, I'd strip it and get to work.


----------



## Tim457

I read something about the saw steel crystallizing more over many years until it's harder. I'm guessing that tempering it again would work, but I don't know for sure. I've also read to be very careful to not heat a saw too much or you'll ruin the temper. Not sure if that means spring steel tempering is different or just the standard advice to not overheat steel. 400 is pretty standard tempering for plane irons, but I know saws are tempered softer to allow them to be filed. 58-63 HRC for plane irons vs low 50s for saws if I recall right. Since the saw is slated for scrap, it wouldn't hurt to try. To be very conservative, you could try an hour in a 300 degree oven, then if that doesn't work, try 50 degrees higher the next time and keep trying until it works. I'm guessing you don't have a set of hardness testing files, but once it files ok with a regular file, you'll know. Also, after you joint all the teeth off to recut a new set of teeth, there's a good chance the remaining steel wouldn't be as brittle.


----------



## Brit

RANT ON:

Recently, I was looking at a Painted R Groves and Sons saw on ebay.co.uk and I sat here trying to decide why this abuse of premium vintage saws disturbs me so much. I came to the conclusion that unlike most other vintage hand tools, nobody is making hand saws of that quality anywhere in the world today and once they are gone, they are gone. I doubt we will ever see their like again and I for one think that is a sad state of affairs because I firmly believe they have a place in today's workshop.

Now I have enough saws to last me the rest of my life, but what about the next generation? Will they get to experience the thrill of using a beautifully crafted, expertly tuned and sharpened hand saw? Maybe, but two generations on, not so much. So when I'm hand sanding saw plates for hours on end and my arms resemble Popeye's, I persevere regardless and remind myself that I'm not just doing it for my enjoyment, but for those who will come after me.

I genuinely feel a great sense of responsibility for the saw I'm working on and strive to do my best by it however long it takes me. Now I might have paid good money for my saws and splashed out more money on the consumables I used to restore them, but at the end of the day I don't really consider myself their owner. Folks, we are all but caretakers of these incredible, beautiful, and extremely effective tools.

RANT OFF.


----------



## Brit

> Also, after you joint all the teeth off to recut a new set of teeth, there s a good chance the remaining steel wouldn t be as brittle.
> 
> - Tim


I think there is a good chance that refilling the teeth would solve the problem Don. The other things to watch out for are:

1) Don't overset the teeth as it isn't necessary on a taper ground plate.
2) Ensure the teeth don't bend from more than halfway down their height. Bending below halfway, could lead to stress fractures and even breakage. The closer the bend is to the gullet, the more likely this is to be an issue.
3) Always set teeth in the direction they were originally set.


----------



## donwilwol

A later D23.


----------



## bandit571

"Rescue Saws"...









At just fifty cents each. There is a D-8 in there, and the teeth looked like the saw was never used! Once cleaned up, it was ready to cut any wood in the shop. Almost like they had bought the saw new, just to paint it…GRRRRRR!!









As for the other two?









Hardest part was stripping that $#


Code:


#$#

 paint!!









Once that was done….fifty cent saws?


----------



## Brit

Don - That's a nice one.

Bandit - Well done - you give me hope. Saw nerds: 3, Folk artists: 1 LOL.


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

on the Panther saw topic, if I found a rare Elvis Pink Cadalliac and someone had put a set of 24s with floating centers on it and recovered the seats with lime metallic vinyl,,,would I leave it the same because it's unique or would I restore it and it just be another Pink Elvis Cadalliac. .!!?


----------



## Brit

> on the Panther saw topic, if I found a rare Elvis Pink Cadalliac and someone had put a set of 24s with floating centers on it and recovered the seats with lime metallic vinyl,,,would I leave it the same because it s unique or would I restore it and it just be another Pink Elvis Cadalliac. .!!?
> 
> - TheTurtleCarpenter


Turtle I think you answered your own question when you said it was rare. I think you'd love it tender, love it true and not leave it lonesome tonight in the ghetto. After all, it's now or never.


----------



## WillliamMSP

> Don - That s a nice one.
> 
> Bandit - Well done - you give me hope. Saw nerds: 3, Folk artists: 1 LOL.
> 
> - Brit


My vote comes with the assumed caveat that it's not going to be used either way. If someone has the balls to buy it, strip it and use it, I would wholeheartedly love that.


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

> Turtle I think you answered your own question when you said it was rare. I think you d love it tender, love it true and not leave it lonesome tonight in the ghetto. After all, it s now or never.
> 
> - Brit


Beautifully Put Britt. I'm crying like Ky Rain, whoever painted that saw shoul be doing the Jailhouse Rock.


----------



## Pimzedd

Here is the other saw I bought from the same sale as the back saw I posted a day or so ago. Don't know why I bought it other that I liked the handle. No medallion. It looks like it had some type of plate on the side at one time.










It has a nib.










Guess I will add it to the pile of things to do in the shop.


----------



## Brit

> My vote comes with the assumed caveat that it s not going to be used either way. If someone has the balls to buy it, strip it and use it, I would wholeheartedly love that.
> 
> - WillliamMSP


Oh I'd definitely use it and I'd have a BIG smile on my face whilst doing so.


----------



## Frustrator

From witch period do you folks think this saw is from? It's the saw i posted earlier, has split-nuts wich confuse me because i thought it was from the -50..



























Thanks in advance!


----------



## donwilwol

I haven't formed an opinion on the panther saw yet. I'm almost leaning with William. I don't typically get to excited as long as the original piece isn't ruined. Just imagine how foolish the painter must feel though. He was probably thrilled to get $50 for his master piece, not even realizing he had one before he even started.


----------



## onoitsmatt

I found a late 1800s/early 1900s Disston #12 for $19 at a local antique shop. It is clean but has been sharpened so much that the blade is only about an inch tall at the toe (maybe a bit less). It's a great price for a 12 but maybe not considering how much blade is missing. What say you?


----------



## Brit

onoitsmatt - got a photo?


----------



## onoitsmatt

No. Didn't think to take a pic. The bottom of the etch is gone. I measured to see if i cut the saw shorter to get a 2" toe. it'd only be a 16" long blade if I did that.


----------



## onoitsmatt

No. Didn't think to take a pic. The bottom of the etch is gone (disappears into the teeth). I measured to see if i cut the saw shorter to get a 2" toe. it'd only be a 16" long blade if I did that. Handle and blade are clean.


----------



## summerfi

Don - What type of saw set are you using? I've run into a few saws that the teeth want to break on. Very frustrating.

Frustrator - Your saw is a British made Sanderson Brothers & Neubold. Both the Sandersons and Neubold formed sawmaking partnerships with other makers at various times. British saw parnterships came and went frequently. However the partnership of Sanderson Brothers & Neubold made/sold saws from 1900 to 1972 according to British Saws and Saw Makers From 1660.

Split nut saw screws went out of fashion around 1870 in the US, but continued to be used until roughly 1920 in the UK. The latter end of this period (1920) would be a reasonable guess on the date of your saw.


----------



## ColonelTravis

> Putty, have not seen her at any of the sales. I have seen her at their sales at Woodcraft and Wood World just to see what neat things he has. She makes an sells pies. Good pies!
> 
> I know Lynn on a first name basis. He is a good source of information. I bought a Stanley #42 at an auction and did not know what it was. I went to Lynn and he knew quite a bit about it. Turned out it was a type 1 from around 1865.
> 
> Bob, if he is at a sale, he also knows where to go.
> 
> - Pimzedd


Her cherry jalapeno pie - stunning good.
Lynn has helped me with some stuff, great guy with great stuff.



> +1 to Andy s great sharpening video. IMO it is the single best resource for learning to sharpen that exists in the world.
> - summerfi


This is the truth. Seriously. Nothing anywhere compares to that thing. I've gone to it many times.
Thanks Andy!


----------



## jmartel

I'm curious as to why there aren't really many people making full sized saws any more. Clearly there's a market for nice new saws, as Bad Axe, Bob, and many others show. Is it because the saws used to be taper ground and it's not so easy to do as a boutique maker?


----------



## summerfi

Here is a sweet little 10" Disston backsaw. When I saw this on ebay I guessed it was an 1860-ish saw. After consulting with Phil Baker's excellent article on dating Disston backsaws, I nailed it down to c1853 based on specific characteristics of the medallion and back stamp. The handle is either a very dark red apple, or quite possibly cherry.

*Before*


















*After*


















The two-eagle back stamp is very light. Rather than being worn, I believe it was just struck lightly. Earlier saws had the eagles on top of the words cast steel and warranted rather than beside them like this saw. Putty's early 1840's saw is a good example of the earlier type. Later saws had no eagles on the back.










The saw on the left is this saw, while on the right is a later 10" Disston. The later saw is a good saw and I use it a lot. However, comparing it to the early saw is like comparing a Chevy to a Ferrari. Having worked on a number of early Disston saws now, I believe the saws made during his first 20 or 30 years were the most aesthetically pleasing.


----------



## summerfi

> I m curious as to why there aren t really many people making full sized saws any more. Clearly there s a market for nice new saws, as Bad Axe, Bob, and many others show. Is it because the saws used to be taper ground and it s not so easy to do as a boutique maker?
> 
> - jmartel


That's my guess Jeff. Wentzloff tapers their full size handsaws, and Bontz has made a few prototype handsaws with tapered plates, but it is a very difficult thing for the average guy to do in a small shop. It may also have something to do with selling price vs effort to make. On ebay, backsaws seem to bring a consistently higher price than handsaws for some reason.


----------



## putty

Beautiful saws Bob, You do such nice work!!

I love that little 10" saw


----------



## jmartel

Is taper grinding that big of a deal? I would think that you could still make a very good saw with a normal plate. I haven't really used full sized saws much so I don't have experience to know.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

> RANT ON:
> 
> Recently, I was looking at a Painted R Groves and Sons saw on ebay.co.uk and I sat here trying to decide why this abuse of premium vintage saws disturbs me so much. I came to the conclusion that unlike most other vintage hand tools, nobody is making hand saws of that quality anywhere in the world today and once they are gone, they are gone. I doubt we will ever see their like again and I for one think that is a sad state of affairs because I firmly believe they have a place in today s workshop.
> 
> Now I have enough saws to last me the rest of my life, but what about the next generation? Will they get to experience the thrill of using a beautifully crafted, expertly tuned and sharpened hand saw? Maybe, but two generations on, not so much. So when I m hand sanding saw plates for hours on end and my arms resemble Popeye s, I persevere regardless and remind myself that I m not just doing it for my enjoyment, but for those who will come after me.
> 
> I genuinely feel a great sense of responsibility for the saw I m working on and strive to do my best by it however long it takes me. Now I might have paid good money for my saws and splashed out more money on the consumables I used to restore them, but at the end of the day I don t really consider myself their owner. Folks, we are all but caretakers of these incredible, beautiful, and extremely effective tools.
> 
> RANT OFF.
> 
> - Brit


Brit, one day I shall buy you a premium English Ale for such a post.


----------



## summerfi

> Is taper grinding that big of a deal? I would think that you could still make a very good saw with a normal plate. I haven t really used full sized saws much so I don t have experience to know.
> 
> - jmartel


It's debatable. Taper grinding does make a saw lighter without sacrificing much stiffness. A typical large handsaw is tapered about .010" at the toe, less at the heel. You could achieve a similar result with just a little more set.


----------



## ToddJB

Floyd, Bob. Tremendous job. I love it. Did you 're-blue the back?


----------



## summerfi

Yes, Todd, cold gun blue.


----------



## putty

How long ago did you buy the double eagle Bob, I think I was bidding on that


----------



## Brit

Red - Thanks. That would be great.

Bob - Thanks for responding to Frustrator from Sweden. 1920s was going to be my guess too.

My thoughts on whether or not taper grinding is really a big deal are these. Whilst you could add a bit more set as Bob says, the downside of that is that more set means you are removing more wood with each cut and therefore the cut would be slower, the saw would also feel heavier and less balanced in use. A heavier saw would mean the sawyer would tire sooner. Personally, I think it is a big deal but not that difficult to do for a small engineering shop if they dedicated a surface grinder to the task and shimmed the bed to deliver the correct taper.


----------



## summerfi

I've had it about a week putty. It was only listed a few minutes when I bought it on a BIN for $14. So I think you were bidding on a different saw.


----------



## putty

$14.00!!!! That deserves a big YOU SUCK

It will be nice in your saw museum!


----------



## ColonelTravis

Not familiar with how to do taper grinding. Looking it up I found a write-up of how they made metal things in the good ol' days in Sheffield. Grinding a saw plate - they'd stick it on a board because the metal was too thin to hold it like a knife or chisel, etc. Then they'd lean into the spinning wheel. Not sure I'd like that job.










A DAY AT THE SHEFFIELD CUTLERY WORKS No 775 April 1844


----------



## WhoMe

Bob, love that double eagle saw. I definitely favor the shape and details of the older saw handle BUT, for such an old saw, why re plate it? Wouldn't that detract from the history and intrinsic value of such an old saw? I'm sure from a functional standpoint, the new thinner (and well sharpened) plate probably performs many many times better than the original. I'm just curious on the re plate versus a restore.
Thanks.


----------



## warrenkicker

> Couple photos, seems I paid about a dollar bill for this one….yard sale find last year..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> About a foot in length
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Found some thumbscrews for it, it used to have slotted screws…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It says "No.2 ( Millers falls diamond logo) Millers Falls Co. Millers Falls MASS USA
> Has a Bosch Scroll Saw blade in it now…
> 
> - bandit571


Looks like on I found last spring. Guy had coated it all with something black. Took a bit to get that at least mostly cleaned off to bring the brass back to life.



















So it is Miller Falls and takes a 4.5" blade and the throat is 12" deep. One end had a slotted screw and the other had a thumb screw.


----------



## summerfi

> Bob, love that double eagle saw. I definitely favor the shape and details of the older saw handle BUT, for such an old saw, why re plate it? Wouldn t that detract from the history and intrinsic value of such an old saw? I m sure from a functional standpoint, the new thinner (and well sharpened) plate probably performs many many times better than the original. I m just curious on the re plate versus a restore.
> Thanks.
> 
> - WhoMe


Mike - That's certainly a valid question. If I was keeping the saw strictly as a collectors item, I would keep the old plate on it. However, when I restore saws, I like to make them usable again. With the old plate being only about 1.5x as wide as the spine on the toe end, it wasn't very usable IMO. I hoped to cut down an old discarded plate to fit this saw in order to retain the "old" look. The problem with that was, in order to get a large enough plate to cut down to fit the saw, the plate was too thick. So that option didn't work. The backup option was a new plate. Now the saw looks good, in fact looks much like it would have when it was new. It also is now a tool that I can use instead of just putting away on a shelf. The fact is, by their inherent nature, saw plates eventually wear out. This one was at that point IMO. Now this 160 year old saw is ready for another 160 years of use and enjoyment.


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

Bob ,,I would think that saw would bring as much or more now than if it was restored using the original plate, and now it's a great user for someone and still has a history.


----------



## Brit

> Not familiar with how to do taper grinding. Looking it up I found a write-up of how they made metal things in the good ol days in Sheffield. Grinding a saw plate - they d stick it on a board because the metal was too thin to hold it like a knife or chisel, etc. Then they d lean into the spinning wheel. Not sure I d like that job.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A DAY AT THE SHEFFIELD CUTLERY WORKS No 775 April 1844
> 
> 
> - ColonelTravis


and the dry grinders really lived past their late twenties.


----------



## terryR

Bob, just scored a map of Oregon, my truck is packed, and I'll see you in 18 hours! I need a break from my wife anyway! LOL!

Great looking restores, gang!

I've many times wondered why full size saws aren't made new, too. There's a market out there IMO. We should get up a petition for LN…the new saws wouldn't be cheap in any sense. The maker would have to love the power and control of the tool, and build them with less attention to the shareholders.

NOT gonna happen…


----------



## summerfi

> Bob, just scored a map of Oregon, my truck is packed, and I ll see you in 18 hours! I need a break from my wife anyway! LOL!
> - terryR


Well, you'd have better luck finding me in Montana, and that's about a 45 hour drive. I hope you're not headed to Oregon to join the crazy wildlife refuge takeover.


----------



## terryR

All those western states look square to me…will be able to tell them apart soon I bet!


----------



## ColonelTravis

> and the dry grinders really lived past their late twenties.
> 
> - Brit


No kidding. Inhaling that dust for years and years. Was reading more on this, and sometimes when they'd do a postmortem and cutting into the lung, the scalpel sounded like it was cutting a soft stone. Ugh. Apparently the longer-living grinders were the hard drinkers because of how many workdays they'd miss for being too drunk.


----------



## CFrye

I call this my mini miter box. 









More correctly it is AD McBurney #33 Corner Miter Clamp. I have it mounted to a board that can be clamped in my bench vise for use. Kevin(theoldfart) suggested I post it here in the hopes you all can steer me to the appropriate saw that would fit it for scale and purpose. Also posted in the miter box thread. 
Thanks in advance.


----------



## chrisstef

Id go with a small gents saw Candy. Ive got the Crown one and it works pretty well. Disston made one for a long time as well. Theyre something like 8" long and around 20ppi.


----------



## racerglen

Candy, there are also what Lee Valley sells as "razor saws" same idea as Stefs gent's saws but smaller and fine fine teeth. I'm guessing this is a pretty small setup by the picture, like for model work ?


----------



## SuppressiveFire

How many hand saws do you guys own? I'm just curious because I own 86 and most of them are old disstons. Then a few Atkins and Simonds. I need to build a saw till.


----------



## bandit571

My filled saw till ( all but three handsaws)









Hacksaws and coping saws are on another couple of nails to the left. Might have 30, altogether…..


----------



## CFrye

Thanks, Stef and Glen. I've searched this many times before to find a description, other than ebay, and today found the patent on it! The brief (if you don't want to look) is: ADJUSTABLE JIGS FOR HOLDING ELONGATED PARTS IN PREDETERMINED ANGULAR' POSITIONS Filed March 17, 1959 
Kevin asked if I was looking for a panel saw or a backed saw? I hadn't considered a panel saw. I do have a smallish panel saw that may work. I need to check…


----------



## ColonelTravis

> How many hand saws do you guys own? I m just curious because I own 86 and most of them are old disstons. Then a few Atkins and Simonds. I need to build a saw till.
> 
> - SuppressiveFire


where the heck do you put 86 saws?????
I've got about 1/10th that and ticked off I don't have a home for them yet.


----------



## SuppressiveFire

Sitting on a shelf with teeth up. I also have one that sits next to me on my couch because it's so old I am scared to put it in the garage or shop.


----------



## summerfi

I honestly don't know how many saws I have right now because the number is always changing. I'm pretty sure it's less than 86 though. My objective isn't to see how many saws I can collect, but rather to be constantly upgrading my collection. By upgrading I mean improving the quality of my saws, both in terms of inherent saw quality as well as condition. Also by increasing the variety of my saws. If I have one nice example of a particular saw, I don't need any more. So stacking up numbers isn't appealing to me. I buy a lot of saws, but I sell a lot of saws too.

Show us some pictures of your more interesting saws. Especially the one that's too old to live in the shop.


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## SuppressiveFire

Bob I would love to share some of the pictures. For some reason my photoshop won't let me post anymore. I emailed a picture of that eagle Henry disston to you. Thats the one on my couch. My fiancé rolls her eyes at it all the time. I wanted to mail it to you for restore because I'm to afraid to touch it. Then I get to thinking…..what if it gets lost in the mail? I can't do it. So its its sitting on my couch till I am ready.


----------



## SuppressiveFire

I could post some pics on time tested tools though. It's easier to post pictures on Dons forum.


----------



## TheFridge

> Sitting on a shelf with teeth up. I also have one that sits next to me on my couch because it s so old I am scared to put it in the garage or shop.
> 
> - SuppressiveFire


this guy is awesome. Jedi of the highest order.


----------



## putty

Oh, if I started bringing my tools in the house, my wife would kill me!

But I do worry about my double eagle out in the garage.


----------



## putty

Supressive fire, just hit the img button when posting. It will browse your computer then insert for you.

We want to see it!


----------



## summerfi

> Bob I would love to share some of the pictures. For some reason my photoshop won t let me post anymore. I emailed a picture of that eagle Henry disston to you. Thats the one on my couch. My fiancé rolls her eyes at it all the time. I wanted to mail it to you for restore because I m to afraid to touch it. Then I get to thinking…..what if it gets lost in the mail? I can t do it. So its its sitting on my couch till I am ready.
> 
> - SuppressiveFire


Oh, now I'm making the connection. You're Ron, right? You also have a J. Flint and a Spear & Jackson? I wouldn't worry too much about shipping a saw. Just be sure to package it well and insure it. I've shipped a lot of saws and have never had one damaged or lost. I've received some saws in the mail that were so poorly packaged that I wondered how they ever made it though. Yep, you definitely have some nice saws.


----------



## SuppressiveFire




----------



## SuppressiveFire

Yes Bob. I'm Ron. I was restoring an Atkins rip saw today the toe is 3 inches and the heal is over 8 inches. 5ppi but only see part of the etch. No number. But I just thought it was interesting so share and maybe you know which model it could be. About the mailing situation….I'm skeptical I've lost a WWII ka bar and come silver dollars in mail system. Both UPS and USPS.


----------



## summerfi

Yes, that's one of the pictures you emailed me before Christmas. I estimated it's date to be late 1840's to early 1850's. Very nice old saw. You don't see many Henry Disston medallions. Most are H. Disston.

Edit: On the Atkins I'm not sure. If you post a picture we may be able to tell the model.


----------



## SuppressiveFire




----------



## SuppressiveFire

Sorry double post hehe, Bob I will post a picture tomorrow. It's missing teeth and handle has glue drying right now.


----------



## summerfi

Nice wide plate.


----------



## Brit

> How many hand saws do you guys own? I m just curious because I own 86 and most of them are old disstons. Then a few Atkins and Simonds. I need to build a saw till.
> 
> - SuppressiveFire


I currently own 10 hand saws. When I make a till, I will make it to house 12 hand saws. Once, I have 12 saws, if I buy another, I'll sell one too.


----------



## DLK

*Brit* I like this plan of only 12 saws. What is your goal for the 12 saws? What are the different types of saws you will use?


----------



## WillliamMSP

Among the cycling obsessed, the ideal number of bikes to own is defined as N+1, wherein N is the number of bikes currently owned. It seems like this formula might apply to saws and hand planes equally well.


----------



## theoldfart

^ yup!


----------



## ToddJB

Andy I would also like to hear what your ideal 12 looks like, length, tooth count, how they're sharpened, philosophy, etc.


----------



## summerfi

My first till was made for 12 saws too. ;-)


----------



## Brit

'Cause 10 just ain't enough. Right Bob?

I'll let you know my twelve shortly folks.


----------



## Brit

MY 12 HAND SAWS

First let me say that there won't be any 28" saws in my till. I'm 5'9" and they are just too long a stroke for me.
I don't sharpen with slope, so I'm not providing any figures for that in the list below.
Remember that teeth per inch (tpi) is always one less than points per inch (ppi). I'm English, so I'm using tpi.










I also have an oak frame saw for re-sawing waiting in the restore pile.


----------



## summerfi

Oh Andy, you NEED a LOT more saws than that! Where are all the 22 and 24 inchers?


----------



## TobyC

How 'bout a 28" rip, gotta have at least one!


----------



## DLK

*Andy* Why are there no dovetail/tenon saws in your till? Are they separately stored?


----------



## Brit

Bob - I've always thought that if you've got a 24", you might as well have a 26" and if you've got a 22", you might as well have a 20". Since using my 20" D8 to insulate and board out my workshop, I don't think I need anything in between.

TobyC - I knew someone would ask that which is why I covered it in the first bullet point dude.

DonK - This is just the hand saws. I plan on making my own set of backsaws and they will be in a separate till. The hand saw till will be near the saw bench that I still need to make. As to the backsaws I've already got, I think most of those will be passed on to other people.


----------



## TheFridge

I salivate while browsing saws on eBay.uk


----------



## daddywoofdawg

So why (2) the same size and teeth 26" 5 tpi,20" 12 tpi?,It's not like there is a setting or fence you have to adjust.


----------



## bandit571

When one has a lot to saw, and the first one gets a bit dull, one can just switch to the sharper one, and carry on…


----------



## TheFridge

Daddywoofdog, do you still need that nut for the bevel gauge? Sent you a msg. PM me.


----------



## Brit

> When one has a lot to saw, and the first one gets a bit dull, one can just switch to the sharper one, and carry on…
> 
> - bandit571


I couldn't have put it better myself Bandit.


----------



## DLK

Did you folk see all the saws this ebay seller has to sell. His store or other items has a ton of tools. Looks like he is selling off someones collection.

Please save me from e-bay. I need the snow to melt and the garage and estate sales to begin.


----------



## TobyC

> First let me say that there won t be any 28" saws in my till. I m 5 9" and they are just too long a stroke for me.
> 
> - Brit


If you rip a thick piece of timber the length of the saw is determined not only by the length of your stroke, but by the length of stroke plus the thickness of the material being ripped. You might not pull the saw out of the cut with a 26" saw, but you might pull the toe of the saw up into the kerf and stub your "toe" and bend the saw. So if you rip an 8 or 10" thick piece of wood you need a longer saw than you do when cutting a 2" thick piece of wood.


----------



## Brit

Maybe Toby, but I still ain't having one. Also, if I had a 28" hand saw I'd have to put two inch blocks under each leg of my saw bench that I haven't built yet and stand on another block so the I could kneel with one knee on the wood I'm cutting. I'd also have to make my saw till two inches higher (which I also haven't built yet) just to house one longer saw, then what would I do with the wasted two inches above all my 26" saws?

Shall we agree to disagree?


----------



## DLK

Wouldn't it just be easier to cut a hole in the floor?


----------



## summerfi

I suppose a 36" handsaw would be out of the question then? LOL


----------



## Brit

Yes it would be Bob at $39 per dozen, when I could get dozen 26" saws for $20 (almost half the price). Why with the money I saved, I could buy myself a new suit and a bowler hat and get my photograph taken for the 'Vintage Woodworking Pic of the Day' thread don't you know?


----------



## TobyC

> Maybe Toby, but I still ain t having one. Also, if I had a 28" hand saw I d have to put two inch blocks under each leg of my saw bench that I haven t built yet and stand on another block so the I could kneel with one knee on the wood I m cutting. I d also have to make my saw till two inches higher (which I also haven t built yet) just to house one longer saw, then what would I do with the wasted two inches above all my 26" saws?
> 
> Shall we agree to disagree?
> 
> - Brit


Well don't get all huffy!


----------



## Spelcher

I picked up a set of braces last month of craigslist and had a couple saws thrown in for free. I found one of them intriguing because it was the most comfortable tote I'd ever felt. It's a Clifton - just had 'Clifton Cast Steel' stamped on the spine. Just finished cleaning it up today and I think it looks pretty, but I don't know what it's for.

It's ground to 10.5 TPI rip, with about a 45 degree rake (???), and is 10" long, 3" tall and, 1/32" thick.

Has anyone used a grind like this, or know what such a saw would be meant for? It also seems like an aggressive TPI on a saw that looks built for fine work, with a crazy rake angle. I'm wondering if it's worth regrinding to a higher TPI…

Are older Clifton saws common? I haven't seen one before…


----------



## summerfi

Jason, Clifton is a British saw. The book British Saws and Saw Makers From 1660 contains three examples of "Clifton Cast Steel" stamps ranging from 1890 to 1930. There may have been two different Cliftons. The paragraph on Clifton & Co. Ltd. (1912 - 1924) reads as follows:

Meadow Works, Meadow Street, Sheffield. Metal cutting saws, probably factored.The marks illustrated do not readily fit with this firm's dates in the directories. It seems more likely that the name was used by another firm for a line of second quality tools, and of these firms perhaps James Davenport (Clifton Works) is the strongest contender.

If the blade is truly 1/32" (.031") that would add credence to this being a metal cutting saw. A dovetail saw of this size would normally have a blade thickness of around .018". Nice job on the restore.


----------



## Spelcher

Wow, thanks for the info Bob, I never would've guessed that it was for metal cutting - I guess that would mean the temper would be bad for woodworking, and probably hard on files… I suppose that would explain the weird rake angle too.


----------



## TheFridge

First one I've heard of. I'd take it.


----------



## donwilwol

Is there an "American saw and saw makers" book?


----------



## theoldfart

^ yea, we call it Bob.


----------



## racerglen

LOL Kevin


----------



## donwilwol

I'm working on transitioning my web site to a new hosting platform. Suggestions and comments welcome.

www.timetestedtools.net


----------



## DLK

I like the look of the new site. You seem to have adhered to my usual suggestions on websites. I.e. make the front page as uncomplicated as possible, No animation, no unnecessary pictures, make it able to load quickly on any platform. Print large enough so that old tool collectors can read it, but not to large because we are all wearing readers
anyway. So I think it looks good.


----------



## summerfi

> Is there an "American saw and saw makers" book?
> 
> - Don W


Yes, Don, it's called Hand-saw Makers of North America by Erwin L. Schaffer. The book is out of print and hard copies are terribly expensive if you can find them at all. You can, however, buy an electronic copy here.


----------



## summerfi

> I'm working on transitioning my web site to a new hosting platform. Suggestions and comments welcome.
> 
> www.timetestedtools.net
> 
> - Don W


I like it Don. Really like your logo too.


----------



## ToddJB

I really like the logo too, but I cannot read the line between Time Tested and Tools.


----------



## TheFridge

> I really like the logo too, but I cannot read the line between Time Tested and Tools.
> 
> - ToddJB


Ditto


----------



## DanKrager

Don, would you mind if I put a link to it on my web page? Not looking for reciprocation because a link from me to you makes more sense than from you to me!
DanK


----------



## donwilwol

> Don, would you mind if I put a link to it on my web page? Not looking for reciprocation because a link from me to you makes more sense than from you to me!
> DanK
> 
> - Dan Krager


Dan, you are more than welcome.

Thanks for the comments guys, and if anyone would like to write some articles, let me know.


----------



## donwilwol

> Is there an "American saw and saw makers" book?
> 
> - Don W
> 
> Yes, Don, it s called Hand-saw Makers of North America by Erwin L. Schaffer. The book is out of print and hard copies are terribly expensive if you can find them at all. You can, however, buy an electronic copy here.
> 
> - summerfi


Thank You Bob. I bid on the hard copy, if that falls through I'll buy the electronic version.


----------



## donwilwol

> I like the look of the new site. You seem to have adhered to my usual suggestions on websites. I.e. make the front page as uncomplicated as possible, No animation, no unnecessary pictures, make it able to load quickly on any platform. Print large enough so that old tool collectors can read it, but not to large because we are all wearing readers
> anyway. So I think it looks good.
> 
> - Combo Prof


Sorry, My web designer decided to add pictures. I kind of like it, but what do I know.


----------



## donwilwol

SHIPPED: Hand-saw makers of North America by Erwin L Schaffer‏

yea!


----------



## summerfi

That's great Don. Was it an ebay purchase? Amazon has one copy for $300+ and Abe Books has one for $600+.


----------



## DLK

> Sorry, My web designer decided to add pictures. I kind of like it, but what do I know.
> 
> - Don W


The pictures are not so bad. It is the evil animations one should avoid. I think pictures are necessary for your site/business.


----------



## donwilwol

> That s great Don. Was it an ebay purchase? Amazon has one copy for $300+ and Abe Books has one for $600+.
> 
> - summerfi


Yes, it was ebay buy it now. I offered $55 and they accepted.

Edit: And thank you for your help on this!!


----------



## ToddJB

Saw file question.

There are charts that says use this size for this tooth count. Is the only difference between a 5" Dbl X slim, and a 6" dbl X slim the one inch of extra length? Are they the same girth shape and size? If so, is there any difference in sharpening with those files except the length of the stroke?


----------



## Tim457

Todd, I had this partly typed out then saw it was much better explained here:
http://norsewoodsmith.com/content/understanding-saw-file-sizes

I was able to find a list of the dimensions of each size of saw file from Grobet I think it was, but I can't find it now. I used it to get an idea of what size some of my vintage saw files were that weren't marked. Each brand varies a bit.


----------



## ToddJB

So an xx is an xx, just different lengths? I didn't see that he addressed that. Meaning there is no real benefit in sharpening with a 4,5, or 6 xx other than the length of the stroke, right?


----------



## ColonelTravis

Has there been an updated discussion on the state of saw file quality? Any new recommendations? Someone had started a petition a few years ago, don't know what came of that.


----------



## Tim457

It was this part:
"Smaller files (and the smaller as listed above) have a sharper corner, therefore leave a longer tooth (and a deeper gullet) when you sharpen. This is important in fine-toothed saws, especially those 12 ppi and finer, as the gullet carries away the sawdust… Too round of a corner can also make sharpening more difficult, as the file is just too big to fit in the slot for the tooth. However - too sharp of a gullet can be a problem too, making it easier for the metal to tear at the base of the gullet… That's usually not a big issue, but it's something that Grimshaw thought important enough to mention, so I won't question his authority - and I have seen it, though admittedly only on saws with poor quality steel."

So basically a shorter file even with same taper will have narrower edges and cut a sharper gullet.

Travis, for a while there everyone that had carried Grobet swiss were out of stock. Now LV has switched to Bahco. I think the argument about which ones are better is almost moot because there are very few you can get ahold of at all.


----------



## Tim457

> So an xx is an xx, just different lengths? I didn t see that he addressed that. Meaning there is no real benefit in sharpening with a 4,5, or 6 xx other than the length of the stroke, right?
> 
> - ToddJB


Oh and Isaac at Blackburn tools has another pages about that:
http://www.blackburntools.com/blog/concerning-saw-files-which-i-am-now-selling/

"Thickness: The nomenclature for this dimension is a bit odd. Each length of file comes in four different thicknesses (listed in order of decreasing width): regular, slim, extra slim (X-slim), and double extra slim (XX-slim). When considering a particular length of saw file, the regular taper will have the widest face, and the XX-slim the narrowest. For a given thickness (say, slim), the longer file will have a wider face."

I don't know if that helps or not. I find the xx of one size is something like x of one size shorter, but it varies. The thinner tapers seem to affect the sharpness of the gullets more than the length of the file.


----------



## ToddJB

Tim, thank you. Yes, that makes sense now. I didn't read it that way the first time. I thought he was saying a xx is narrower than an x…. um yep.


----------



## ErikF

Hey Gents.

It's been awhile since posting so I thought I would drop by the forum with an update for those who may be interested.

I took most of the year away from building tools to enjoy my new found freedom as a civilian in northern Michigan. What this means is that I jumped head first into the wood world and have been loving it.

About a month ago I acquired a 46'x60' pole building on 5 acres and have been plugging away at getting it usable for my needs. As some of you know- heating a large space in the winter is a task in itself. The building had no insulation or source of heat so single digit temperature made work less than enjoyable.

Life is now better since turning an old 250 gallon oil drum into a wood stove and putting in a bit of insulation. There is a separate workshop area that's easier to heat and is now being setup for tool making. I have been employing a young guy that enjoys the work- he recently started shaping saw handles and will continue to learn the build process.

Lumber and timber is now part of my daily business so I have some big projects on the table to make life more enjoyable. I have run into issues finding reliable sawyers so I am building a sawmill inside the building…a big sawmill. I'll be running 4" wide band on 36" band wheels with a max cut width of 80", track length will be 45'. It's electric over hydraulic so it's running a 40hp electric motor paired with a variable displacement piston pump- the head will run off a hydraulic motor. Big motors require big power and 3 phase- I don't have access to three phase power so the saw will be run off a generator…a big generator. Found an awesome deal on a 125kw generator head so that will be powerhouse.

I also am the proud owner of a lot of American chestnut burl- this piece is 22"x24" and 7" thick. If I'm able to get handle blanks out of it I'll be donating some to you guys once it's processed. This is only a small piece of the stump burl that's left in the ground, I'll get the rest in the spring.


----------



## Tim457

> About a month ago I acquired a 46×60 pole building on 5 acres and have been plugging away at getting it usable for my needs.


I'm not really sure I was capable of reading anything else after this. That's a really nice space.



> It s electric over hydraulic so it s running a 40hp electric motor paired with a variable displacement piston pump- the head will run off a hydraulic motor. Big motors require big power and 3 phase- I don t have access to three phase power so the saw will be run off a generator…a big generator. Found an awesome deal on a 125kw generator head so that will be powerhouse.


That sounds like a cheaper way to get 3-phase out in the sticks, but I'd hate to see how much gas it runs through. Worth it if you can get over a certain $bf or equivalent in projects sold.










Oh my, so nice.


----------



## ToddJB

Welcome back in a big way Erik. Awesome set up. That truck looks awesome too


----------



## summerfi

Great to hear from you Erik! I must say you do things on an impressive scale! Very glad you're enjoying life, and building your business is going well. I'd love to see video of your sawmill once you get it in action. We're all envious of all the space you have. Keep up the impressive work and keep us posted as your progress continues.


----------



## DLK

Erik, Where are you in Northern Michigan. I am in Houghton, Mi. (Not to be confused with Houghton Lake)
I use a VFD to convert 220 to 3 phase.


----------



## DLK

Just watched this woodwright stop episode . In it is discussed a very cool saw sharpening vice. Perhaps the best one I have seen.


----------



## summerfi

That is an ingenious design Don. I think it would be awkward to file a saw that is not in a vertical position, but I suppose you would get used to it. I believe there were saw sharpeners who traveled from job to job sharpening carpenter's saws on each job (Like the pic below). A portable vise like this one would be perfect for that.


----------



## chrisstef

Well congrats Erik. Follow your dreams brother.

I saw that episode a while back and its like remembering an old flame from back in the day. Im all hot n bothered.


----------



## putty

Cant wait to see pics of your sawmill…Where did you end up in Michigan. My sister just sold some land that she had near Manton


----------



## shampeon

Awesome, Erik. I saw that you'd moved back to Michigan, and it's great to hear you're making a go of it in woodworking/tool making.


----------



## kwigly

Bob, thanks for posting that picture.
Love those old photographs of saw sharpeners,

I think this one has been posted here before


----------



## Frustrator

A question about what kind of saw to use..I've got some free cherry lumber.. Living in the city no chainsaw is allowed and there is no saw mill in the area.. So im left to use a handsaw 
Anyone have a suggestion on tpi and wheter it's better to make a big frame saw or refile a big crosscutsaw to rip?


----------



## DanKrager

It's worth a trip to the country IMHO. You're lookin' at a pile of muscle building energy depleting challenge to your persistence. Good luck with that because the quality of the logs appears to be poor to begin with.

I'd start with a large gardeners frame saw and an axe or big hatchet. For boards, start by squaring up the logs into four sided sticks; saw and axe work. These pieces do not look straight enough to gain anything by trying to split into planks. The crotches and big intersections would make good turning blanks. Once squared up then think about ripping with a 3-4 TPI saw. I'm assuming that you don't have a band saw…

The easiest way out is to find a wood turner that will take the stuff off your hands. There could be some interesting grain to discover.

DanK


----------



## summerfi

Frustrator - It would be possible, but difficult, to saw all that up with a rip handsaw. I'd look for one of about 4 ppi. You'd have some amazing biceps when you're done if you make it all the way through. I've never used a frame saw, but I imagine that would be about the same degree of difficulty. If I were you, I'd make friends with someone who has a bandasw of at least 14" capacity and saw it up on that. Whatever you decide to do, you should seal the ends with paraffin without delay to prevent checking. Otherwise, by the time you saw it all up it probably won't be worth sawing.

Edit: Dan beat me to it, and it sounds like we're pretty much in agreement.


----------



## lateralus819

> That is an ingenious design Don. I think it would be awkward to file a saw that is not in a vertical position, but I suppose you would get used to it. I believe there were saw sharpeners who traveled from job to job sharpening carpenter s saws on each job (Like the pic below). A portable vise like this one would be perfect for that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What does a guy need that many saws for? Lol.
> - summerfi


----------



## jmartel

What's the consensus on the brand of saw files to buy now? I did a quick sharpening on one of my saws today with a grobet file, but the file snapped. Must have been a bad casting or something. Or I just put way too much pressure on the handle side of it when filing. First time filing a saw.


----------



## Frustrator

I know that it's not a great source of wood, but 1. Its better then the pictures show. 2. Cherry runs for 96$ per bft in my part of the world..IF you own a company you can get a much better price of course. So even IF i ends up with only 1 board im happy


----------



## Brit

Frustrator - Not sure if you do any carving, but if I got that cherry for free, I'd be thinking spoons, bowls, kuksas, etc. I'd saw or axe off any minor branches and split the main logs with a froe and maul. Not all woodworking starts with a board. ) Like Bob says though, wax the ends to prevent checking until you're ready to use it.


----------



## DLK

Frustrator-where is your part of the world?


----------



## donwilwol

> What s the consensus on the brand of saw files to buy now? I did a quick sharpening on one of my saws today with a grobet file, but the file snapped. Must have been a bad casting or something. Or I just put way too much pressure on the handle side of it when filing. First time filing a saw.
> 
> - jmartel


I've been using the files I got from Lee Valley about a year or so ago. Yesterday day I grabbed one of the old ones from a box of old tools. What a difference! The old one worked 100 times better, so I'm looking to find something decent as well, now that I know why decent is. Any advice ?


----------



## Frustrator

> Frustrator-where is your part of the world?
> 
> - Combo Prof


Southern part of Sweden. No Mills around the town. Closest lumberyard is 150kilometer away, and they only sell to companies.. Maybe coz of that we only have slöjd..and no other woodworking..


----------



## Frustrator

> What s the consensus on the brand of saw files to buy now? I did a quick sharpening on one of my saws today with a grobet file, but the file snapped. Must have been a bad casting or something. Or I just put way too much pressure on the handle side of it when filing. First time filing a saw.
> 
> - jmartel


Im using bachos version and so far it's superior to the Nicholson I've tried atleast.


----------



## chrisstef

Ive got a handful of pferd's that i like. Pretty sure ypu had to buy a full box all though. Matt cianci had a link to a site on his blog where you can buy them.

Edit - toolzone.com


----------



## lateralus819

I've got a stash of about 50 NOS Nicholson I inherited from my grandpa. Couldn't believe how many he had.


----------



## DLK

> Frustrator-where is your part of the world?
> 
> - Combo Prof
> 
> Southern part of Sweden. No Mills around the town. Closest lumberyard is 150kilometer away, and they only sell to companies.. Maybe coz of that we only have slöjd..and no other woodworking..
> 
> - Frustrator


So how much is shipping from the U.S. to Sweden? You can for example buy 10 or 20 bf of cherry through bellforest at at about $9 a board bf. On top of that you would pay international shipping, tariffs, customs and etc. So I belive you may be able to beat $96 a board foot. But that does not answer your question on the wood you have acquired. I have a 4 tpi hand saw for doing that kind of work. But I also have a 20 inch bandsaw with 2 tpi 3/4 blade so that is what I would, except I know of 2 near by mills and there are a number of guys with portable mills around. SO no issue for me. If I were you, I might make a frame saw with 2-4 tpi.


----------



## MNclone

Can you use an electric chainsaw?


----------



## Brit

As far as new saw files are concerned, I would go for Bhaco or Swiss Grobet. Bear in mind though that the biggest issue with saw files being made today is lack of consistency. You could buy two files from the same manufacturer and one would cut as expected whilst the teeth on the other might crumble within a few swipes. Sad to say that you just can't rely on them anymore and that goes for all of the saw files being made today.


----------



## Tim457

I just sharpened a 12ppi Atkins no 53 crosscut I picked up the other day. Far from perfect, but I should have gotten a before picture because it was terrible. Cuts really sweet now even with the mistakes. 









Anyway made me remember I wanted to ask if anyone could explain why shaping and sharpening teeth is two different steps.

Edit: Last saw I ever sharpen without some kind of a rake guide. Trying to guess leads to inconsistency.


----------



## Brit

> Anyway made me remember I wanted to ask if anyone could explain why shaping and sharpening teeth is two different steps.
> 
> - Tim


There are a number of steps when it comes to filing saw teeth. They are:

1. Joint the teeth to ensure the tops of the teeth are all in a straight line (or slight arc in the case of crowned saws like Disston D8s). The file should touch the tips of all the teeth. On really bad saws, you might have to Perform steps 1 and 2 multiple times before the file touches the tips of all the teeth.
2. Shape the teeth. This step is used when restoring an old saw where the teeth are in bad shape or to change the teeth profile (i.e. No. of teeth and/or rake angle). After shaping, the teeth should be equally spaced, the rake angles consistent and the gullet depth consistent. Shaping is always done by filing perpendicular to the saw plate. You are not concerned with fleam at this point.
3. Set the teeth. Settings bends the teeth in alternate directions by a set amount.
4. Lightly joint the teeth again. Why? Because it brings the tops of the set teeth back to flat and also corrects any slight errors that might have been introduced during the shaping stage. The tips of the teeth are left with little flats called 'shiners'.
5. Sharpen the teeth. This is where you remove the tiny flats created in step 4 to bring the teeth to razor sharp. On crosscut saws, this is where you introduce the fleam angle to your file strokes.

Having said all that, if the teeth are in good condition and you just want to touch up the teeth to bring them back to sharp, you only need to perform steps 4 and 5. After you have touched the teeth up 2 or three times, you will need to perform steps 3, 4 and 5 to ensure you retain enough set in the teeth. You won't need to shape the teeth again unless you mess up the sharpening.


----------



## Tim457

Sorry i should have been specific. I've watched your video several times and I'm familiar with the recommended steps. The question was why is step 2 and 5 separate, especially when you often don't need to add more set. Am I reading you right, that it's mostly just another chance to even the teeth out by jointing and then improving the spacing?


----------



## chrisstef

When i shape the teeth a lot of times i need to bias pressure to one side or another to get everything even again. Im not particularly concerned with removing all of the flat i had created on my first trip through. I am concerned with gullet depth and the shape of the tooth. When im sharpening im really trying to bring the tip of the tooth to that perfect point but no further. I dont want to alter anything except for that tip. Any further and youre altering the shape.

Id equate it to using a jack before a smoother. Shaping gets me close, sharpening gets me perfect.


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

I think a trained saw filer could shape and bring to sharp in one step with their experience, combining the two steps. Being a novice like myself it helps me concentrate on each one and if I re joint a couple extra times, it gives me another chance on perfecting the tips to even and sharp. My first stab at sharpening was changing a rip to a crosscut profile and it took me three tries to get it half way right. I should of started out on an inexpensive saw in decent shape , with a rip profile to learn the basics. I am glad we have access to videos and forum post like Andy's and Bob's to help us get started.


----------



## Brit

Tim - In the case of a rip saw it is a chance to refine the evenness of the teeth and the spacing, but it is also to do with the profile of the tips of the teeth. If you have had to do all the five steps I outlined above, then the tips of the teeth would be flat after the initial jointing, then form an inverted V after setting. You joint them again to re-flatten the tips and that means you have to sharpen them to bring them back to sharp. In the case of a rip saw it is important that the tips of the teeth are flat because that is the profile that will be at the bottom of your saw kerf.

In the case of a crosscut saw, in addition to the above, it is where you add the fleam. You shape filing perpendicular to the plate because it is a hell of a lot easier to see when all of the teeth are shaped and spaced correctly when no fleam is present.

As I mentioned in my last post though, if you don't need to shape the teeth then you would only do steps 4 and 5 until you had to add more set.


----------



## Tim457

Thanks guys, that makes a lot of sense. I was thinking along the lines Turtle was, that if I was just a little better practiced, it wouldn't need to be two steps. And that's still possible for a crosscut it sounds like, but I'm not there yet. Now I remember the part about flat tips on rip saws after setting and that you're supposed to add fleam after shaping. I forgot that part and it was indeed challenging to get them perfectly evenly spaced. It didn't help this is the first time I've sharpened a saw in over a year, so I was out of practice. It certainly is kind of fulfilling from a self reliance standpoint to be able to sharpen your own saws.


----------



## theoldfart

I got these panel saws back today from Bob Summerfield. A seven and a D8


















And back in their home









I now have four saws by Bob and I will never part with them. Bob thank you.


----------



## onoitsmatt

I can't hold it in any longer. I watched the video from a few posts back of the Woodwright's Shop saw vise. I thought someone would post on this, but nobody has… The saw vise was neat and all, but didn't anyone notice the saw set he used? It looked way, way, way easier/less tedious to use than the Stanley 42 saw set. Has anyone used one of these? Is there a reason you wouldn't want to use one of these (besides the fact that you're kind of free-handing it)? It's at 4:07 into the video.

Here's a link to the video again to save anyone interested from digging back through the thread for it.

And here's a screen capture of it:










Any idea what this saw set is and where to get one?

BTW, Nice looking saws Old Fart!

Thanks!


----------



## TobyC

> - theoldfart


Beautiful!


----------



## summerfi

Glad they made it Kevin. I hope they do the job for ya.

Matt, that's called a saw wrest, a very old type of saw set. There were many different types. Some had indexing features so you could only bend the teeth so far. The one he shows does not. The reason they aren't used much now days is because the newer style sets do a better, more consistent job. I see these frequently on ebay if you want to give one a try. I'll stick with the 42X.

Edit: looking at the pic you posted, I see that one does have some sort of indexing or limiting device.

Oh, and Kevin's pictures didn't show the curly apple on the D8 handle.


----------



## theoldfart

^ and it's ALL MINE! HAHAHAHAHA


----------



## putty

A pair of beauty's there!!! any before pics?


----------



## Frustrator

> So how much is shipping from the U.S. to Sweden? You can for example buy 10 or 20 bf of cherry through bellforest at at about $9 a board bf. On top of that you would pay international shipping, tariffs, customs and etc. So I belive you may be able to beat $96 a board foot. But that does not answer your question on the wood you have acquired. I have a 4 tpi hand saw for doing that kind of work. But I also have a 20 inch bandsaw with 2 tpi 3/4 blade so that is what I would, except I know of 2 near by mills and there are a number of guys with portable mills around. SO no issue for me. If I were you, I might make a frame saw with 2-4 tpi.
> 
> - Combo Prof


Shipping a small backsaws from US to Sweden is about 40$ and thats without taxes and stuff..so right now I dont think it would be cheaper. Im trying to find a source in Europa but not so easy.
Sorry, not my intention to hijack the thread. Back to saws!


----------



## chrisstef

Want to touch the curl ….


----------



## donwilwol

> curly apple on the D8 handle.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - summerfi


Sweet!!


----------



## Brit

Wonderful saws Kev. Nice job Bob!


----------



## theoldfart

Only before pics are on the 7 Putty


----------



## donwilwol

I think it's trick photography!


----------



## TheFridge

TOF tried to deprive us of the curl. For shame.


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

Nice saws Kevin, Bob loved um up good.! You know those saws have to feel like a Jamacan Fella that rolled into a barbershop with five dollars in his pocket. Got a couple I'm sendin Bob's way soon.


----------



## Spelcher

Amazing restore Bob! I hope to one day be able to order one of your saws…

Kevin they look super beautiful but not very efficient. When not in use they would take up a lot of time staring at them dreamily on the wall instead of woodworking.


----------



## theoldfart

Jason, it'll be a challenge but i am up to the task!


----------



## bandit571

Looks like I need to either find a handle, or make one…

Just came in the mail today…









12" long, 9 ppi, and has an etch I'm still trying to read. Still has the imprint from the old handle, and is a two-holer









Plate is stamped as a "9" ppi.

Any ideas on what to handle this with? I prefer more like a normal handle, rather than a open one. 
Tool box saw? or, Table saw?


----------



## ToddJB

Has the front of the plate been shortened, Bandit? Looks pretty squared off.


----------



## bandit571

End is rounded right at the top. Etch that I can read…CHAMPION and has an arch to it. End of the saw is 1-3/4" at the toe. Heel is 3-5/8"

Tooth line has a couple smallish bends, should be able to tap them flat.


----------



## TobyC

> Looks like I need to either find a handle, or make one…
> 
> Just came in the mail today…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 12" long, 9 ppi, and has an etch I m still trying to read. Still has the imprint from the old handle, and is a two-holer
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Plate is stamped as a "9" ppi.
> 
> Any ideas on what to handle this with? I prefer more like a normal handle, rather than a open one.
> Tool box saw? or, Table saw?
> 
> - bandit571


Looks like the blade on this one!

Here.


----------



## DLK

^ Very unusual handle indeed (see the link). Looks homemade and not very well made.


----------



## bandit571

I know I can do better than that …thing….yuck.

Ok, on another thread, it was mentioned about "templates" for handles? Maybe I could download a couple to see what I can come up with…..Pattern on the blade looks like a backsaw's…...Hmmm.


----------



## summerfi

With TheFridge's blessing I'll post a few pictures of a new saw that will be heading to Louisiana tomorrow. This is a 14" sash saw. Fridge provided the beautiful walnut for the handle. It's some of the darkest I've ever worked with.


----------



## ToddJB

Woof. That's glorious, Bob. Tremendous job.


----------



## putty

Oh My, your work never ceases to amaze me Bob!!! Fridge, I hope you can find some more of that wood for your chisel handles!


----------



## theoldfart

Really good looking saw Bob, Fridge your gonna love that saw. I have two of Bob,s sash/tenon saws, they are my go to joinery tools.


----------



## TheFridge

Thanks guys, especially you Bob. i don't really know what to say. That's a first. Exceeds expectations by far.

me too putty. Me too.


----------



## TobyC

Beautiful saw Bob!


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

Love it.! I like the detail on the front chamfer's


----------



## summerfi

Thanks fellas. Enjoy Fridge!


----------



## summerfi

Plane and saw making video. Saws start at 2:48. Most interesting parts are taper grinding at 3:12 and speedy hand filing at 4:25.





View on YouTube


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

Something you don't see on the Bay too often.









http://www.ebay.com/itm/201482688176?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2648&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


----------



## putty

That is an amazing video…thanks for posting it!!!


----------



## summerfi

Gotta love those Regans Turtle. That one's in nice shape, and for a nice price too.


----------



## DLK

I am confused by the existence of a thumb hole on the Regan. I thought the purpose of the thumb hole was to allow two hand sawing. What is its purpose here?


----------



## summerfi

It's not a thumb hole for the left hand. It's a thumb groove for the right hand.


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

After looking at the photo from Disston and the one for sale on the bay I see a few details on the handle that make it look not original to the saw,,,see what you think . First pic is from the Disstonian files.


----------



## CFrye

Very interesting, Jeff!
Gorgeous saws, Bob. Fridge, you and Kevin, are fortunate men.
Bandit, saw handle templates here from TGIAG web site.
The sharpening scene is awe inspiring on that video.


----------



## DLK

Who was it on one of the hand tool forums that recently posted a picture of Koa? I can't for the life of me find it again.


----------



## JayT

Don, it was TurtleCarpenter in the HPOYD thread. Here's the drool worthy post.


----------



## terryR

Bob, another spectacular saw!
I want one badly, but still searching for an appropriately gorgeous tote blank.

A bit of Koa for your thursday viewing pleasure…


----------



## CFrye

> Don, it was TurtleCarpenter in the HPOYD thread. Here s the drool worthy post.
> 
> - JayT


*WOW!* I sure missed that! Thanks for the question, answer and original post, Don, JayT and Jeff.


----------



## WillliamMSP

After looking for the better part of the week, I've only concluded one thing: man, back saws are spendy. I think that I'm going to take a look for something along the lines of a ready-to-use Disston 4/5/7 at a tool meet next week, but if I don't find something that I love for $80, the plan is to spend that money on a Veritas carcass saw, instead.


----------



## DLK

> Don, it was TurtleCarpenter in the HPOYD thread. Here s the drool worthy post.
> 
> - JayT


Thanks Jay.


----------



## bandit571

Bandsaws were running today…..have a prototype cut out.









The one laying on the saw plate.

The other wasn't getting it…..have a keyhole saw plate for it.









Plate is etched as a Champion, 12" long, 9ppi. Set will need to be worked on, too much on one side.

Lots of shaping to do. 5/4 White oak…..will do for this little saw. Two holes, no medallion.


----------



## theoldfart

Tried the rip today, nice and straight. Effortless to use









Clean cut too









Gratuitous family shot


----------



## summerfi

Great to hear Kevin.


----------



## Brit

I seem to have missed a whole bunch of good stuff on this thread lately.

Bob that's a gorgeous saw. Love that walnut and I enjoyed the video too. Fridge is a lucky man.
Terry - nice Koa. Your work always inspires me.
Bandit - You look like you are having way too much fun for one man.
Kevin - I don't blame you for just sawing for the hell of it when you have such nice saws in your nest.


----------



## bandit571

Whole lotta shaping going on…









using the plate to hold the handle while a Witch's Brew dries. Other side?









Plate had a pair of holes drilled when I got it, so, that is what the handle will get









Nothing fancy. I don't claim to be at Bob's level of artfully crafted saws, and never will be at his level. 
Will not be putting a medallion on this…..not needed… just playing around with some Oak..


----------



## ColonelTravis

Bob, your saws are absolutely terrific.


----------



## summerfi

Thanks Colonel. Did you get your issues with the Blackburn kit figured out?


----------



## TheFridge

Counting the minutes…


----------



## TheFridge

Seems to be a package from Missoula, Montana


----------



## putty

open the damn thing and show us!

I love Bob's home made boxes!


----------



## TheFridge

Sorry putty, but I'm savoring it


----------



## WillliamMSP

Tease.


----------



## WillliamMSP

I really want one of Bob's table saws… maybe this summer, or so. Unless of course I could use it in lieu of a carcass saw… hmmm…


----------



## theoldfart

Aw come on Fridge…...........


----------



## jmartel

You're blue balling us here, fridge.


----------



## chrisstef

Take your time fridge. Have a special drink and a moment to yourself with the saw. Its a special time lil buddy.


----------



## theoldfart

I wonder if maybe he cut himself kissing it?


----------



## summerfi

You guys are funny.


----------



## MNclone

While we wait for fridge…..

I came across a millers falls 1124 miter box at an estate sale this morning for $16. It is missing all the stop bolts on both sides. I did a quick ebay search and came up empty. Is is possible to find this hardware or should I pass on this one.


----------



## TheFridge

Sorry! Busy morning… Rips and crosscuts like a champ. Wanted something that will crosscut finely if itake my time or chew through if I want it. It's exactly what I wanted and more.



























Like a boss.

Thanks again Bob. It's a dream to use so far.

Edit: I really wanted to put gloves on  but I resisted


----------



## summerfi

Glad you like it Fridge. I hope it serves you well for a long time.


----------



## donwilwol

What? No picture of the after cigarette?


----------



## TheFridge

Ha! Not right now. I had a beard vasectomy last night and I'm still self conscious 

But, believe me. I had a few…


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

It's like sitting out in the driveway in your new ride, twisting all the buttons and breathing the new smell !! 1st rate work Bob Missouly. ,! Smile !! Fridge, we can't see your beardless Grinn.


----------



## putty

Oh that is a beauty!

You have 2 new babies!


----------



## putty

I bought this R. Ibbotson split nut saw on Ebay mostly for the handle. I knew that the saw plate was cracked and one little chip in the top horn. When it arrived in a cheap flimsy box the bottom horn is now shattered!! I'm pissed!!

Anyone know anything about R.Ibbotson? Sheffield and cast steel stamped on spine.


----------



## summerfi

Putty, that's a nice looking saw. Shame about the bad packaging and damage. If it was sent priority mail it would be insured for $50. I would make a claim and also leave appropriate feedback on ebay.

Richard Ibbotson had offices in the U.S and Canada and exported a lot of saws to here. My saw book lists the company as making saws from 1841-1912, then in 1913 they reorganized into a Ltd company and went out of business in 1938. If you would post a closeup of the name stamp I may be able to give you an approximate date.


----------



## putty

Thanks Bob, sorry for the out of focus pic…
Yes, saw was sent priority. Saw cost me 11.50 plus shipping. If they pay a claim for 50.00 that is an instant profit!










It will be coming to see you for a new saw plate at some point!


----------



## Pimzedd

Putty, contact the buyer and send him photos, hope you have the bad package. Ask him to make it good, he has to file the claim. I sold an item a while back that got damaged in shipment. Buyer contacted me with good photos of the package and the item. I returned his money and told him to keep the damaged item. I then filed a claim with the USPS and received my money in about a week. I broke even and the buyer was satisfied
with outcome.


----------



## summerfi

It is possible this is a Robert Ibbotson saw, but I don't think so. Robert lived in the U.S from 1834 and served as agent for the British Peace family of sawmakers. Their saws were usually marked with both the Ibbotson and Peace names. There is no stamp like yours in my saw book. Judging by the simple style of the stamp, though, I'm going to say it is late 1800's, possibly around 1880-90. It could even be early 1900's.

What I would suggest for the crushed lower horn is to work epoxy into it and then squeeze the fragments back together as best as possible. After it is dry it can be reshaped. I think this may make a less obvious repair than if it was cut off and a new piece spliced on. I wouldn't do this until after the insurance claim is settled though.


----------



## putty

Thanks Bob, I'll try the epoxy trick some of the fragments have fallen off, but I did save them in a small ziplock.
I looked online and didn't find too much info, although there are a bunch of Ibbotson's. Your timing is probably right, didn't the brits continue to use split nuts long after we stopped using them?

Thanks, Bill, I sent a note and pics to the seller.


----------



## summerfi

Yep, the Brits used split nuts on some saws until about 1920.


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

WoW !!


----------



## summerfi

I was watching that one Turtle. Apparently some high swinging collectors were too.


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

I was gonna Go $50, Bob,,but figured my heart wasn't in it.! Ha. Major Snipe-n going on there.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Received a recent cocobolo order today. Didn't specify QS, but that's what he sent. Think this would make some decent saw handles Bob? lol


----------



## summerfi

That looks fantastic Red. How thick is it?


----------



## BigRedKnothead

It's all 1 1/8" x 5 1/2"+.

It's how I roll buddy.


----------



## daddywoofdawg

Funny how when the grain curves it makes the board look all twisted and curved.


----------



## paulm12

After reading alot of info on this forum, I have begun to pay attention to wood grain. And I was thinking the same thing about the grain on those boards. The education continues.


----------



## bandit571

New handle made, teeth sharpened up..









9ppi, filed rip









Saw plate is 12" long.

Just a "Tool Box Saw"


----------



## summerfi

Just finished a pair of new saws. Read about it here.


----------



## putty

Just Fantastic!


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

You are a True Craftsman Bob.,!!


----------



## Tim457

Your work is extremely impressive, Bob.


----------



## onoitsmatt

Looking good, Bob! Love your saws!


----------



## summerfi

Thanks guys, appreciate the kind words.


----------



## TheFridge

Lookin good Bob.

When did disston last make a saw with a nib? Saw one at a flea market for 8$ with a bent plate.


----------



## WillliamMSP

Here's a purchase from yesterday's MWTCA tool meet -










The back is stamped with Sargent & Co, and it's got a 16" plate.


----------



## summerfi

Fridge, I think 1928 was the magic date.

Bill, that's a nice looking saw, and one you don't see many of.


----------



## WillliamMSP

Thanks, Bob. I assume that it was made by Disston, or the like? As I told Mos yesterday, I bought it mostly because I liked the handle. Well, that and the price wasn't obscene.


----------



## terryR

Sargent & Co? More info, please…

Gotta thank Bob for sharing his knowledge, much time saved mortising after I read his latest blog!


----------



## WillliamMSP

This is the only mark on it, don't see anything on the plate.










and the medallion is the just "Warranted Superior"


----------



## Mosquito

That looks similar to one that I bought from Smitty a long while ago (back in the apartment shop days lol)










I don't think mine had anything stamped on it though, and no etch was visible


----------



## TobyC

> Sargent & Co? More info, please…
> 
> - terryR


*HERE.*


----------



## TobyC

> This is the only mark on it, don t see anything on the plate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and the medallion is the just "Warranted Superior"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - WillliamMSP


Looks Disston to me, but with a lambs tongue.


----------



## terryR

Thanks, Toby. I didn't realize Sargent had a NY branch.
Never seen a saw by them…


----------



## donwilwol

Sargent started in NYC,

http://www.timetestedtools.net/2016/01/27/history-of-sargent/


----------



## warrenkicker

At a flea market today I saw some thing new. A guy was making canes or walking sticks and was using unusual items. Sorry I didn't get a pic but he was using saw totes and aluminum bats to make canes. It seemed that one of them was one of the 60's D-100's. Odd looking thing.


----------



## DWeir

> Thanks, Bob. I assume that it was made by Disston, or the like? As I told Mos yesterday, I bought it mostly because I liked the handle. Well, that and the price wasn t obscene.
> 
> - WillliamMSP


I'm pretty sure your saw was made by C.E. Jennings, Port Jarvis, New York. They did make some comfortable back saw handles.

Take care,
Daryl


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

I've only seen 2 Sargent saws pass thru the Bay. I don't look daily.,,, Am I wrong to say they are scarce.?


----------



## DWeir

A little more info on C.E. Jennings backs saws from a catalog and some pictures of one I sold a few years back.














































Take care,
Daryl


----------



## ToddJB

Daryl - welcome. I recognize your backdrop from ebay. You do nice work and appear to save a lot of saws. I'm sure you will be a valuable asset in knowledge around these parts.


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

Sending this one out to the beauty shop today;



















I've also read Jennings was associated with Stearns in some way.


----------



## donwilwol

but you're saving the yellow, RIGHT?


----------



## donwilwol

made myself a new soaker!!


----------



## theoldfart

^How'd you do it?


----------



## ToddJB

And what's it sitting on - a not hooked up wood stove?


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

I "Reallly" like the Yellow., but after Bob gets done with the plate it will get my touch.


----------



## WillliamMSP

Nice! Thanks much, Daryl.


----------



## donwilwol

I just bent a piece of left over metal siding to form 4 sides.

And its sitting on my running wood stove. If you want to see citric acid eat some rust, add some major heat.


----------



## terryR

Oh, for the record…

DON'T try sandblasting a saw plate unless there's a backing board behind it! A vintage plate bends easily under 12 scfm of black beauty. DAMHIK

Jennings…nice!


----------



## ColonelTravis

> I just bent a piece of left over metal siding to form 4 sides.
> 
> And its sitting on my running wood stove. If you want to see citric acid eat some rust, add some major heat.
> 
> - Don W


Is that tape around it to prevent leaks?


----------



## ToddJB

My money is on red duct tape


----------



## donwilwol

no tape, it was a piece of red siding, white on the inside, red on the outside. Its one piece so it shouldn't leak.


----------



## summerfi

Daryl, nice to have you visiting this thread. I hope you'll stay and contribute frequently.

Don, how did you seal the siding, or did you just fold it up in one piece?

I picked these saws up today. There are 4 Disstons, including a No. 4, a No. 7, and two No. 12's. The final saw is a British Thomas Ibbotson. Someone inscribed "AD 1845" on the Ibbotson handle. I don't know if that's authentic, but it's probably about right for the age of the saw and interesting none the less. I got these at a tool store, so not yard sale prices. But I can make back my entire outlay on one saw.


----------



## chrisstef

I fuggin love red duct tape. Its a staple in the asbestos abatement industry. You can twist it to make rope, tie it in knots and if you don't ever want it to come off, lay down a bit of spray glue underneath. Forget about it.

Love the soaker tub yoda. I bought an upright container and thought I was genius in finding it, until I had to try and dump it out. Lost about 1/3 of it on my pants slogging it up the bilco stairs. I'm an idiot.

Welcome Daryl. Nice No.99 AV.


----------



## summerfi

Turtle, I've got a rattle can of yellow paint and I could touch that handle up for ya. It would look real purdy.


----------



## donwilwol

Its all folded from one piece. I had one out of aluminum, but decided to soak a saw in The Works. The stuff ate right through the bottom.


----------



## summerfi

The Works is mostly sulfuric acid if I remember correctly. Ever try muriatic acid on rust? It sure takes bluing off steel in a hurry.


----------



## ColonelTravis

Thanks Don. 
Your website is awesome, by the way.


----------



## onoitsmatt

I use one of these:

Planter Liner

They come in a few different lengths so can use whatever size you need for saw plates, joiner planes, whatever you need to soak. It lacks the panache of red duct tape though.


----------



## ColonelTravis

> Love the soaker tub yoda. I bought an upright container and thought I was genius in finding it, until I had to try and dump it out. Lost about 1/3 of it on my pants slogging it up the bilco stairs. I m an idiot.
> - chrisstef


Laughing here. I did this just taking a tub out sideways on flat ground. Bigger idiot!


----------



## chrisstef

Solid Matt!

I see that we're brothers CT. The yellow tint of the citric acid was icing on the cake. A belt buckle proved to be a nice aide in carrying but made for some funny looks as I went upstairs and the wife saw me.

Nice haul Bob! (btw that package we talked about is going to go out this week, I swear it is) I didn't lie when I said I was the worst shipper in America.


----------



## summerfi

LOL I'll be looking for it Stef. Will let you know when it arrives.

I'm stoked to discover that one of the Disston No. 12's I picked up today is a rare saw. Notice in the picture below that there are recesses where there used to be much larger saw screws and that the current medallion is sticking way up proud of the handle. I wondered about this when I bought the saw. These are obviously replacement screws.










Compare that to one of my later No. 12's and you'll notice that the later screws are normal, and that the wheat carving is coarser and doesn't go along the front edge of the handle.










So I looked on Distonian Institute and found the saw below. It is a dead ringer for my saw. The blued steel washers and brass dome nuts were a short lived intermediate step between split nut screws and modern screws. DI puts this saw at about 1875. I don't know how many of these were made, but this is the first I've seen in person. I'm quite happy about finding it and looking forward to fabricating some proper reproduction screws.


----------



## putty

What kind of nuts did they have on the backside of those screws Bob? was it a split nut or a newer nut?


----------



## summerfi

Dome nut and washer putty, similar to the other side but with a slot.


----------



## donwilwol

Nice find Bob. Isn't it great when you find you've bought something of significance and didn't know it, rather than the other way around for a change!


----------



## TobyC

> Thanks, Bob. I assume that it was made by Disston, or the like? As I told Mos yesterday, I bought it mostly because I liked the handle. Well, that and the price wasn t obscene.
> 
> - WillliamMSP
> 
> I m pretty sure your saw was made by C.E. Jennings, Port Jarvis, New York. They did make some comfortable back saw handles.
> 
> Take care,
> Daryl
> 
> - DWeir


Daryl is "The Man"!

Thanks Daryl!


----------



## putty

I just did my first handle horn repair, It could be better but will work. I will need to stain to blend in!!


----------



## summerfi

That looks excellent putty. Nice job!


----------



## donwilwol

> That looks excellent putty. Nice job!
> 
> - summerfi


+1


----------



## donwilwol

This old girl was a mess. A thumbhole Disston, obviously started as a rip, somebody decided to file it crosscut, but either didn't have a clue or just got bored. I don't think it'll be finished today.


----------



## putty

ouch,,, you may need a cutting torch to reshape those!


----------



## summerfi

It's time to get you a retoother Don. ;-)


----------



## DWeir

Thanks for the welcomes guys!

I think I've found a good home here (nothing but saws….it's gotta be good) so I think I'll be sticking around for a while. Hopefully I can help out once in awhile and learn some things from everyone else too.

By the way Bob, you found a good old No.12 there. I'm anxious to see if they drilled the blade out to accept the later larger diameter screws or if those are the smaller diameter '76 centennial screws. I can't make out the medallion/label screw well enough to see if it's a Glover era or earlier era.

Take care,
Daryl


----------



## donwilwol

The worst part Bob, I had a whole set, a toother, a setter and a sharpener. It was before I had had my shop so I didn't have room to keep it.

Welcome Daryl. We can always use some more expertise. Well, I can anyhow.


----------



## SuppressiveFire

I have a couple original screws for that disston 12


----------



## SuppressiveFire




----------



## summerfi

Ron, some dimensions of those screws would be much appreciated. Particularly head diameter at top and bottom and head thickness.

Daryl, once you asked the question I had to find out for myself. Indeed they are Glover screws and the plate has been drilled. A shame and a bit more of a challenge, but not insurmountable.


----------



## SuppressiveFire

Email me [email protected] with where to mail them.


----------



## summerfi

Done. Thanks!


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

Didn't send the handle Bob, just the plate. Trying to find a perfect match on the Centennial Yellow.!

Seen DWeir's post earlier today and took for granted that he'd been here long time. Welcome Daryl, your work is awesome


----------



## theoldfart

Glad to see you here Daryl. I've drooled at many of your saw listings!


----------



## ColonelTravis

What's the best way to carve decorations on a new replacement handle? Chip carving knife?


----------



## summerfi

Colonel, see these links:

http://woodworkerszone.com/igits/showthread.php?t=17657

https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/111989349558773438340/albums/5235518768389523489?authkey=CISw7a3SmNPRwAE


----------



## DanKrager

Colonel, a chip carving knife is what I used and found it very quick and easy. Apple carves nicely and if your knife is VERY sharp i.e. 15° included angle (or so) all the way to the back (no bevel) it cuts like butter and leaves a very crisp surface.
DanK


----------



## Brit

> It s time to get you a retoother Don. ;-)
> 
> - summerfi


Nah! Crank some Pink Floyd up to 11, fill a jam jar with Jack and file away your worries and cares. Oh and don't forget to breathe.

Peace out!


----------



## summerfi

Here are a couple more table saws I've recently completed. The cherry handled one ( R) went to Illinois and the sycamore handled one (L) is leaving for New Jersey today. These have been extremely popular. As far as I know I'm the only person making these, so perhaps that's why I've gotten so many requests. I have one more order to fill and another pending order, then perhaps I'll get a break.


----------



## johnstoneb

Looking at the pictures and your quality. I doubt you get much break.


----------



## donwilwol

> It s time to get you a retoother Don. ;-)
> 
> - summerfi
> 
> Nah! Crank some Pink Floyd up to 11, fill a jam jar with Jack and file away your worries and cares. Oh and don t forget to breathe.
> 
> Peace out!
> 
> - Brit


I can see we could share a shop perfectly !!


----------



## theoldfart

Note to self, make sure the saw is up to the task.









I was literally picking teeth out of the bench top for a half hour! $33 to replace the blade, gonna have to come out of my allowance. ;-(


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

Whoa ! What wood were you cut'n


----------



## terryR

^petrified?
oh my induction hardened teeth? love my japanese saw since I can control it with sweet backstrokes. but it's missing a few rip teeth, too.


----------



## theoldfart

A dovetail/tenon made from Douglas Fir. In a moment of inattention I let the saw dig into the oak bench top and the rest is history. Did the rest using a crosscut saw.


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

I still have the first Japanese saw I purchased. Does a good job cutting drywall .


----------



## BigRedKnothead

> As far as I know I m the only person making these, so perhaps that s why I ve gotten so many requests. I have one more order to fill and another pending order, then perhaps I ll get a break.
> 
> - summerfi


I dunno. I'm pretty sure I need one….lawlz


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Ehhhh…..I might need one of these first:


----------



## jmartel

So this is starting.










And the figure:










How it will look together. Blackburn 16" tenon saw kit with bronze hardware and back.










Gonna work on it little by little as I'm finishing up my night stands and hopefully get it done once I'm ready to start the bed build.


----------



## summerfi

Looking good jmart. That's going to be a pretty handle.

Red, I think you need one of my sets of 12 saws. You're already 25% there.


----------



## jmartel

Well it won't be as nice as your saws, Bob. But Hopefully it turns out well. Luckily, my dovetail's saw kerf is the same as the plate for this saw. Works out well for cutting the slot in the handle. Debating whether to use a clearer finish or make it darker to help with the issue that someone mentioned a while back of light handles showing dirt easier.


----------



## summerfi

Stained or dyed curly maple can look mighty nice, but so can natural. I wouldn't worry too much about dirt as long as you put a good protective finish on it. Some selective shading like I attempted on Smitty's pecan handle might look nice on that maple.


----------



## jmartel

Was planning on Shellac and wax for a finish I think. Or maybe danish oil. Haven't decided yet.


----------



## Brit

jmartel - I would recommend finishing some test pieces before you apply any finish to your saw handle. Use the same wood and finish them to the same grit size as your saw handle. Make sure you finish some end grain too. There is a lot of exposed end grain in a saw handle and you need to be sure how it will take the finish. Take your time experimenting (you can't rush a good finish) and when you're happy with your test piece, you can apply your chosen finish to your saw handle safe in the knowledge that you know how to apply it and how it will look on the wood.


----------



## jmartel

That's been the plan, Andy. I've got plenty of scraps. The biggest problem is going to be trying to not rush it and say that I'll finish it later once I get it useable. Did that with my plane till, and it took another 6 months to get fed up with it and "finish" it.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Jmaple- most any oil based finish will yellow maple a bit. LN uses gun-oil finish similar to "True-oil". Nice, but strong amber tone.

Lat turned me on to "tung oil" products. Which of course is really another varnish….with just a little amber tone. I dig the look on curly:


----------



## chrisstef

You lookin traditional finish or are you open to gettin funky jmart? Multiple layers of dyes can do some cool things to curly maple.


----------



## donwilwol

Sharing a little Simmonds Guide.

http://www.timetestedtools.net/2016/02/17/simmond-guide-for-carpenters-1914/


----------



## Brit

You gotta love Uncle Si. You presented that really well Don, thanks.


----------



## DLK

I read the saw sharpening section of the Simmond guide for carpenters starting on page 14. It seems to indicate that one should set the saw *before* sharpening. I thought the advice given here was to set *after* sharpening. Am I wrong? Also where can I buy the sperm oil they recommend?


----------



## TheFridge

Jointing, shaping, setting, then lightly joint then sharpen?


----------



## DLK

FYI I found this article and will order it through our library, but here is the abstract. I did not know there was a Journal called Wear.

H. Gisser, J. Messina, D. Chasan, Jojoba oil as a sperm oil substitute.
Wear, Volume *34*, Issue 1, August 1975, Pages 53-63

Abstract
Laboratory evaluations of the extreme pressure and antiwear properties of the sulfurized jojoba and sperm oils indicate almost equivalent performance capabilities. Shop drilling and tapping operations confirm that sulfurized jojoba oil will perform as well as sulfurized sperm oil in practical applications. It seems reasonable to conclude, therefore, that sulfurized jojoba oil could serve as an adequate replacement for sulfurized sperm oil in many lubrication applications.

☆
Paper presented at the Tribology Session of the Eighth Israel Conference on Mechanical Engineering, Technion, Haifa, 23-24 September, 1974.

Copyright © 1975 Published by Elsevier B.V.


----------



## DLK

O.M.G. The scientific name for *Jojoba* is Simmondsia chinensis Although I find the *Simmond*sia to be the part interesting to us, it is the chinensis that is weird to the scientific community.

chinensis - Of China. Johann Heinrich Fredrich Link (1767-1851), a German botanist, is responsible for choosing this misleading species epithet. During his worldwide plant collecting travels, he accidentally mixed Jojoba seeds with seeds of plants he collected in China. He then incorrectly used the word chinensis in the plant's scientific name. Since the rules of botanical nomenclature give preference to the first scientific name used to describe a newly discovered species the name is not changed, even though it is clearly the result of a mistake. Jojoba is native only to North America.


----------



## chrisstef

Ditto brits comments. Well done yoda.

Uncle si … My man. Lol.


----------



## theoldfart

I like it Don.


----------



## jmartel

> You lookin traditional finish or are you open to gettin funky jmart? Multiple layers of dyes can do some cool things to curly maple.
> 
> - chrisstef


To quote Undercover Brother: "There are times for falling apart, and there are times for getting' funky. This is one of them funky times. So what's it gonna be?"

I'm up for funky stuff. Whatchu got?


----------



## DylanC

> To quote Undercover Brother: "There are times for falling apart, and there are times for getting funky. This is one of them funky times. So what s it gonna be?"
> 
> I m up for funky stuff. Whatchu got?
> 
> - jmartel


I knew there was a reason I liked hanging out on this thread. Quoting Undercover Brother while discussing how to finish a traditional handsaw handle? Solid.

On a side note, I've been looking into where I can get various sizes of saw files. The x and XX slim can be difficult to source locally and expensive if you have to pay standard shipping from someplace like Lee Valley. My usual sources for industrial supply have yielded the following:

Ace Hardware, McMaster-Carr & MSC: Nicholson/Apex
Grainger: Simonds

Nothing special here, just another option if you are looking for options when Lee Valley is out of stock, or you want to add some low-cost files to your next regular order.

P.S.


> 'IF YOU'RE GOING TO PASS IN WHITE AMERICA YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE TO LEARN TO LIKE MAYONNAISE!'
> 
> -Smart Brother


----------



## DylanC

Just saw this Foley retoother, sharpener and saw set on Craig's list tonight. Listing is 3 weeks old, but still up…
https://minneapolis.craigslist.org/dak/tls/5411359200.html


----------



## Mosquito

I've seen that one go by a few times, I think the set was listed for $450 before…


----------



## summerfi

Whew! Sure glad I don't have to go catch my own sperm whale. I can use jojo oil instead. ;-)

Mos, you gonna buy that Foley stuff? The 5 ratchet bars alone are worth $150.

Dylan, add Amazon to your list of sources for saw files. And while on that topic, all files within a given size are not created equal. I've been needing some tiny files for 14 - 16 ppi saws. I bought a dozen 4" Grobet xx slim thinking they would do the job. I found the edges of these files too wide for the gullets on saws of that ppi range. Very disappointing. I have some 6" Nicholsons with thinner edges than the 4" Grobets. What files are others using for 14-16 ppi saws?


----------



## jmartel

Got a bit of work done tonight. Blade isn't fully seated as I haven't clipped the corner on it yet. Shaping still needs refined a bit more in some places. And then sanded, of course.



















Unfortunately the mortise for the spine is a little sloppy. I don't think I'll trash it because of that, but it may bug me enough in the future to make a new tote. It's still tight, but definitely shows some gaps. Might try to fill it with some veneer and see if that works.


----------



## Brit

Bob - I would normally use a Bahco 5" XX slim file (Bahco product code: 4-188-05-2-0). If the teeth are even smaller than that (18-20 ppi) I would use a Vallorbe three square needle file, cut 2 for shaping and cut 4 for the final sharpening. They're the same price as saw files over here but are much more consistent in quality.

I sharpened this little Garlick (20 ppi if I remember correctly) with the needle files. If you look closely at the second photo (a bit distorted I'm afraid) you will see that the gullets are nicely shaped, especially for the ppi of the saw. No saw file being made today could come close IMO.


----------



## Brit

Lookin' good Jmartel.


----------



## chrisstef

jmart - You can lay down a coat of black dye mixed strong. It will come out like a dark purple on the curly maple. Sand it back really good then lay a coat of something lighter, say bright red, and sand that back a bit. Then top coat it with some shellac and it gets this almost 3D look to it. Bhog is the guy to talk to on it, he's got it down pat.


----------



## chrisstef

Bob - ther Pferd files are pretty good. 5" xxslim is what ive been using on 14 ppi saws. Toolzone has them by the box only though.


----------



## DLK

> Whew! Sure glad I don t have to go catch my own sperm whale. I can use jojo oil instead. ;-)
> 
> - summerfi


 Thanks Bob,... you get me.


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

J Mart, can you swell that mortise witch a damp napkin .? The Shape is looking Great.!

Andy, the back on that saw is Blinding Me.!


----------



## bandit571

News Flash: Brontz has now made a 26" Rip saw…...

Andy: I guess I will have to dig through my Needle files, now


----------



## terryR

Wow, Andy. Just wow!

JFunky, my vote is for black dye also.


----------



## summerfi

Jmart, looking super on the handle. I wouldn't hesitate to shim the mortise. It would be nearly invisible.

Andy, I believe Isaac Smith uses the Vallorbe needle files as well. I've been holding off due to the cost, but I may give one a try. I'll look into the Bahcos and Pferds too.


----------



## jmartel

Yeah, I'll be trying the veneer shimming tonight probably. Gaps look about right for a piece on each side. Need to sharpen up a wider chisel so I can clean up the sides in one pass first.

Thanks for the suggestion, stef. I hadn't seen a multiple color approach suggested, only a single dye one.


----------



## Mosquito

> Mos, you gonna buy that Foley stuff? The 5 ratchet bars alone are worth $150.
> - summerfi


Where would one buy files for it? Does it just take standard files?


----------



## onoitsmatt

Andy, that's amazing work. What are you using for light/magnification on something that fine?

Mos, go get it. Worry about the files later. (Just trying to be an enabler. I bought a 45 because of you. Gotta reciprocate.)


----------



## Mosquito

I was thinking about responding to it when I saw the price drop last week, but my issue at the moment is that I'd be storing it for a little while until I get the workshop done lol

Other thing is figuring out if I can justify the purchase too… I've made 2 saws so far, and want to make some more, but not sure if it'd balance out or not


----------



## WillliamMSP

Mos, you should totally jump on that.

....so that I can be a mooch and make use of them sometime.


----------



## summerfi

Mos, yes the filer takes standard saw files. The ratchet bars are necessary to operate the retoother, and they are usually missing from used machines. That's why they go so high. The carriers also go for around $25 apiece, so there's another $125.


----------



## summerfi

I found the Vallorbe needle files on ebay for about half the price elsewhere so I ordered one.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/130825617409?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&var=430112601629&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

I found the Bahco files for $4.11 each, a good price. I was going to order 3 to try them out but the shipping was insane so I passed for now.
http://store.alltoolsurplus.com:90/bahco-north-america-4-188-05-2-0-doublee-x-slim-taper-files-5-sgl.html


----------



## Brit

> Andy, that s amazing work. What are you using for light/magnification on something that fine?
> 
> Mos, go get it. Worry about the files later. (Just trying to be an enabler. I bought a 45 because of you. Gotta reciprocate.)
> 
> - onoitsmatt


Matt - That saw was done outside in daylight, but I can't really see teeth that small even with my glasses on, so it was mostly done by feel. The teeth on that saw didn't need much shaping, only sharpening, so I used the same amount of pressure, kept my angles consistent and used the same number of strokes on each tooth.


----------



## MNclone

> I was thinking about responding to it when I saw the price drop last week, but my issue at the moment is that I d be storing it for a little while until I get the workshop done lol
> 
> Other thing is figuring out if I can justify the purchase too… I ve made 2 saws so far, and want to make some more, but not sure if it d balance out or not
> 
> - Mosquito


I also think you should buy it. You can store it at my house until your shop is set up!


----------



## MNclone

I put this guy in the restoration thread and wrote a blog about it, but here is a Kaye and Sons Dovetail saw that I cleaned up. It isn't a work of art like some around here are putting together but I managed to make it usable again, which was my goal.

http://lumberjocks.com/MNclone/blog/79178


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

Great Restore Mnclone.! What is the story behind the Maker.?


----------



## MNclone

> Great Restore Mnclone.! What is the story behind the Maker.?
> 
> - TheTurtleCarpenter


Not much out there that I could find. Just this site.
http://tskayeandsons.weebly.com


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

Great Read and genealogy on the saw.! I think that is one to hold on to.


----------



## ColonelTravis

Bob and Dan Krager - thanks for the handle carving help.


----------



## Brit

MNclone - Way back on this thread, fellow LJ Rilanda posted a Kaye and Sons tenon saw and we found that site then. Here is a link to page 37 of this thread. Scroll down a fair bit on that page and look for Rilanda and you will see the saw and the discussion we had at the time.

http://lumberjocks.com/replies/on/1438851/page/37


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

Nice read Andy…..it's too bad about Tom Kaye and his gambling,,,there's one in every family .!

My preacher tells this about his Father: five guys were playing cards and one in particular was angry and talking about the preachers father who had lost considerable money to him and wouldn't pay up. The conversation and anger grew worse and the man got up and said he was going to go find him and shake the money out of him.

A few hours later he returned and the other players asked if he had gotten his money.!! He sat down and responded,,No,, I ended up loaning him another $100..!!


----------



## DanKrager

Did you get your handles carved, Colonel?

DanK


----------



## terryR

Here is a Thomas Sheldon & Son back saw that I purchased a handful of years ago since it was freshly sharpened, but needed a tote repair. I finally scored some Pecan recently, and decided to simply shape a new tote. I'm not very good at matching new and vintage woods, but will certainly keep the original tote for an attempt later.










Thomas Sheldon & Son operated from 1837-1864 in Sheffield, England; so this saw is a only a few years older than our vintage farmhouse!

This saw is filed rip at 13ppi, and the heavy brass back makes me anxious to add it to my user till.

The original hardware was severely bent, and quite a challenge to even remove. I bent the Medallion very gently to help it fit the new tote, but chose to replace the split nuts.










The tote is made from Pecan, stained with Ipswitch Pine, and finished with Arm-R-Seal.


----------



## terryR

tried 3times to put this above


----------



## putty

Great Job Terry!! I like how the grain curves around the medallion!!


----------



## summerfi

Beautiful Terry. That old handle would have been hard to repair.


----------



## chrisstef

That pecan handle ….. ive got movement.


----------



## CL810

Terry you've been displaying some great work lately. I never grow tired from looking at your posts.


----------



## donwilwol

wow Terry, you sure made that Pecan pop! Can you grab that thing without smiling?


----------



## terryR

Thanks, gents.
What I really like is how the finish came out. Usually I cannot pull that off.


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

Love It,,,,First rate job on making and fitting that handle Terry.


----------



## DLK

Very nice Terry.


----------



## DanKrager

Is the beautiful stuff going with you or does it finance the move? Nice, Terry. Just Nice.

DanK


----------



## Brit

That's a beautiful saw Terry, you really did it proud. Can you share the process you went through to ensure that the holes you drilled for the new screws were centered on the existing holes? did you put something in the kerf where the plate goes to stop blowout?


----------



## terryR

Thanks, Andy.

I make a paper template by tracing the ouline of the saw's plate, marking the existing holes on the paper. Then, place the vintage tote on top of the template, carefully aligning the drilled holes with my marks underneath.

The new tote is slotted and mortised to fit the old plate, aligning with my template to keep the same hang angle. Then, the paper is simply placed on top of the new tote and new holes are laid out. Difficult to explain without a series of photos.

On this saw, the original hardware had tiny diameter threads, thus tiny holes in the plate. Since I added new brass which was larger in diameter, I had to bore the holes in the plate a bit larger. That made alignment pretty easy!

I use a thin piece of plastic spacer in the kerf while shaping and boring.


----------



## donwilwol

th good news, citric acid is eating the paint away










the bad news, the smucks painted right over the rust.


----------



## theoldfart

Are you sure it's rust and not patina?


----------



## kwigly

At least they didn't "clean" the plate for painting, using an angle grinder. Grrrrrr


----------



## donwilwol




----------



## donwilwol

are these the file we want to order now?

http://www.blackburntools.com/new-tools/new-saws-and-related/taper-saw-files/index.html

it looks like every 3 files is $3.50 shipping, which seems very reasonable.


----------



## summerfi

Those should work fine Don. You can't go wrong with anything Isaac sells. In all your rust hunting travels you should start to build up a good supply of NOS files.


----------



## onoitsmatt

I picked this up today with a tool lot I bought. It's a Wheeler Madden & Clemson 10" with brass back. I don't believe the saw plate is right (feels like new steel).










Medalion says Wheeler Madden & Clemson XLCR Middletown NY. Anyone know anything about this maker/saw?


----------



## Brit

Nice work Don. I would love to buy a painted saw and restore it like that. I've come close a few times, but they've always gone for more money than I'm prepared to pay for them. I spent the day sharpening three hand saws, two of which have not been sharpened since I restored them. One of those (5ppi) took three rounds of shaping before I got the point line straight and the other one I changed from 5ppi to 10ppi which was also a lot of work. I don't know what it is like in the US, but here it seems that all of the old saws that I'm interested in buying are rip saws. They are probably the ones in good condition because a lot of people don't like ripping wood with a hand saw. I haven't seen a decent old saw filed crosscut for ages, so I just buy the rip saws and change the tooth configuration. I probably overdid it today though, as my hands really ache now.


----------



## theoldfart

"I probably overdid it today though, as my hands really ache now."

That's terrible, hopefully you still lift a pint or two! :-0


----------



## Brit

That's a great find Matt. It could be the original plate because the handle and back appear to be in excellent condition. Nice saw to restore, I can't wait to see it after you've finished it.


----------



## Brit

I'm sure I can find a straw Kev. )


----------



## onoitsmatt

Thanks Andy! That may be a long wait, though. My "to be restored" pile is growing much faster than my "done with restoration" pile. I did just go look at it again. It may be the original plate. It is very clean and shiny but no etch at all.

Sounds like you've had a busy day too. You and Bob have inspired me to try sharpening some of my saws. Results have been pretty poor so far but I have an old D8 that cuts great now. The couple others I've "sharpened" cut better, but teeth are still a mess, uneven, etc. Some day I'll get the hang of it. Enjoying trying (except when I get a bad file).

Thanks to you both for all your contributions to this thread!


----------



## summerfi

Thanks Matt, and I've got to say I'm envious of that Wheeler Madden Clemson. You don't see many of those, especially in that good of shape. Brass back open handle American saws are few and far between. Here's a good source of info on the makers. http://www.wkfinetools.com/hUS-saws2/MSW-WMC/MonhagenSaw-index.asp


----------



## donwilwol

> I picked this up today with a tool lot I bought. It s a Wheeler Madden & Clemson 10" with brass back. I don t believe the saw plate is right (feels like new steel).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Medalion says Wheeler Madden & Clemson XLCR Middletown NY. Anyone know anything about this maker/saw?
> 
> - onoitsmatt


Not as cool as yours Matt, but an uglier sister,

http://lumberjocks.com/donwilwol/blog/24113


----------



## onoitsmatt

Thanks for the link, Bob. I'm knee deep in reading about these guys. Lots of great info there. Don, did you ever get the BLO on that handle? Was it a keeper or did you wind up selling it?


----------



## bandit571

Going to give something a try-out. Picked a 6" Extra slim taper file, single cut. Stanley #22-312…..$5.99+Tax

Have a Disston D-23, 9ppi in the shop to file on some teeth. Need to cobble a saw vise up, first.

Will see how well it does. 26" of teeth, that be a lot of teeth to do.


----------



## ToddJB

Duplicate post from the retro thread










This lil fella cleaned up. Bowdon Co, from Bob's British grab bag last year. Thanks Bob for the saw, and the new split nuts.


----------



## donwilwol

I still have it Matt.


----------



## terryR

Great job, Don. That's a grand looking saw now! Is the lamb's tongue original?

+1on the Wheeler Madden&Clemson; very sweet score.

Todd, a cute saw, there. Much better after a restore!


----------



## putty

Good Job Todd! How does she cut?


----------



## theoldfart

And now for something different. Yuri's reminded me that I had a set of small bow saw arms that I picked up at a flea market.









An interesting surprise when i cleaned them up, the makers mark showed up









I think they date to the mid 19th century. So I just need to make a stretcher and toggle. I'll pick up some blades from TFWW.


----------



## putty

beautiful O.F. What kind of wood are they made from?


----------



## theoldfart

Putty, I don't know! I was hoping someone here could tell me. They are very light and the handles are something different. I'm going to use mahogany for the stretcher.


----------



## summerfi

Very cool Kevin, and in such great shape. I searched the internet and couldn't find another bow saw by Richardson Bros.


----------



## theoldfart

Bob, I found a couple of articles on WK Fine tools about Richardson. No mention of bow saws but the trademarks matched mine.


----------



## donwilwol

I agree, Very cool Kevin,

Yes Terry, its original.


----------



## donwilwol

Blackburn order in!


----------



## realcowtown_eric

close up of tensioning…..









made this veneer resaw over the last few days…..first try. Blade is .02 tempered shim stock, Teeth cut with a trowel notcher (not perfect) but it does cut, not sure how durable the sharpness is, as it seems to file too easily

not finished yet, as I've got a 1/4" twist over the 3' that I have to correct, finish sand, finish etc

Spent the rest of the aft turning a mandrel (5") for a 3"x 12" deburring wheel to mount on the lathes to clean up saw plates. God knows I've got lots of saws needing rehabbing.

Eric in Calgary


----------



## Brit

I've been looking for a coarse rip saw for the past couple of years. Good ones don't come up that often on ebay.co.uk. You can get 5 ppi rip saws every week, but try to get one coarser than that and it ain't so easy. Tonight though, I finally won this S & J beauty. It didn't say what ppi it is, but I'm guessing 3ppi.

(Seller's pics)


----------



## summerfi

Wow Andy, that is a wood eating hog. Nice shape though. What are you going to cut with it? Most of the British saws I find over here are 4 ppi rip, so I'm surprised they're hard to find there. Can't wait to see it after you're done with the restore.


----------



## ToddJB

Looks like the front is quite a bit more than the back. Was that common on the super coarse saws?


----------



## Brit

Bob - I don't know what I'm going to cut with it, but I'm sure I'll find something thick enough to make good use of those big teeth.

Todd - In my Lumberjocks Outlook feed I can see your post but I don't see it in this thread for some reason even when I refresh the page. Hopefully it will show up soon, but to answer your question it was pretty common on coarse rip saws for the teeth at the toe to be quite a bit finer. That makes it easier to start the saw. Once you establish the kerf with the finer teeth, you can extend your stroke and bring the bigger teeth into play.


----------



## bandit571

Andy: What is the story with the teeth out on the toe end? They look like about twice the teeth per inch as the back end's teeth count. Maybe a way to ease the start of the cut?


----------



## Brit

Ah there's Todds post. LOL.


----------



## Brit

Bandit - See my reply to Todd's question.


----------



## bandit571

Have two D-23s in the shop right now. Same length and all the fittings. One saw is a 9 ppi, and is a decent enough crosscut saw. The second one is a 6 ppi, and seems to have been filed rip. getting ready to sharpen the 6 pointer later this week. I guess I can just file at a 90 degree to the plate? May not include much of any rake.

Need to set up the bench and make a saw vise..again..


----------



## TobyC

> I ve been looking for a coarse rip saw for the past couple of years. Good ones don t come up that often on ebay.co.uk. You can get 5 ppi rip saws every week, but try to get one coarser than that and it ain t so easy. Tonight though, I finally won this S & J beauty. It didn t say what ppi it is, but I m guessing 3ppi.
> 
> (Seller s pics)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Brit


28"?


----------



## Brit

Yes Bandit, file at 90 degrees to the plate. I would add 5 degrees of rake. Some people like 8 degrees.

Toby - Definitely NOT sir. 26"


----------



## DLK

I have an 8 TPI that someone re-cut to be 4 TPI. I was going to change it back but maybe I'll leave it. It occurs to me that turning 8 into 4 would not be that difficult, just file every other gullet twice as deep.


----------



## TobyC

> Yes Bandit, file at 90 degrees to the plate. I would add 5 degrees of rake. Some people like 8 degrees.
> 
> Toby - Definitely NOT sir. 26"
> 
> - Brit












Just checking.


----------



## Brit

Don - There's still quite a bit of metal to remove when you change an 8tpi saw to a 4tpi saw and you're wearing the file on one face more than the other (unless you file from both sides of the plate).


----------



## DLK

> Don - There s still quite a bit of metal to remove when you change an 8tpi saw to a 4tpi saw and you re wearing the file on one face more than the other (unless you file from both sides of the plate).
> 
> - Brit


Maybe they retoothed it then but looks hand done to me.


----------



## Brit

It is certainly doable Don.


----------



## bandit571

the saw in question..









I think I paid a whopping $2 for it, at the same Garage sale a Stanley #4 T-13 came from, also $2.

I get things set up in the morning, I'll try to "refresh" the teeth.


----------



## chrisstef

Working through sharpening a 20" 11ppi miter saw. Day 2. Lol. Shaped and half set. Finally getting back to it after my motivation was shattered along with the freshly finished handle after i dumped my saw vice on the floor … with the saw in it.

Nice hog andy.


----------



## ErikF

Posting from my phone so I hope this orientates correct. Thought you guys may enjoy this miter build I'm messing around with.


----------



## bandit571

Did a little work on that D-23 6 ppi saw this morning…









For some reason, it also wants to follow the grain. Grain was curving to the right, so did the saw. This is from the straighter grain side.

I now have a Disston No. 7, 7ppi to try the new file on…...need to get a better saw vise









Maybe then I can work on the No.7…..


----------



## warrenkicker

EricF
You sure that isn't some sort of medieval torture device?

Looks like the accuracy level of that cut should be very high.


----------



## chrisstef

Is that a resaw miter box Erik?


----------



## ToddJB

My guess is its for cutting the plate slot for in his handles.


----------



## ErikF

> My guess is its for cutting the plate slot for in his handles.
> 
> - ToddJB


Yup! Tired of my crooked eye


----------



## realcowtown_eric

Erik…...That looks like a fun build! I'll be figuring it out for a while.

Today I finished making the back saw for my Ulmia 348 (old style) by whacking the back off a surplus backsaw, narrowing it down, fitting the blade with left over .02 tempered shim stock left over from my veneer resaw posted a few days ago

Fitted it with the plastic handle from the sacrificial backsaw

here's an image of the style ofbox I was tring to fit a saw to.

http://holzprojekte.blogspot.ca/2016/01/das-jahr-beginnt-mit-birke.html

Now ain't that the ugliest back saw you ever seen,....which is why I thought that the plastic handle wasn't so bad after all. My replacement saw is seemingly not quite so long, but this is only a tiny miterbox

For the technical info, I don't think any saw plate thicker than 0.020" would fit the slots….

Sorry, no pix.

Eric


----------



## jmartel

Got the sanding finished on my saw tote. Nice and smooth. Have been sitting here with it in my hand moving it around just because it feels so nice in the hand.










Unfortunately, I had a bit of a mishap on the lower bolt hole on this side. Certainly not going to be taking any food off of Bob or Erik's plate with my sawmaking. But I'm definitely going to be making a full set of saws one by one.










Not going to remake the handle at this point, maybe later. For now I'll do some epoxy/dust and re-drill.

Steps left: Chamfer back, squeeze back, polish back, set teeth, sharpen teeth, finish handle.


----------



## DLK

Does epoxy/dust mean clear epoxy mixed with sawdust?


----------



## jmartel

Yes. Or Hide Glue. Haven't decided which yet.


----------



## summerfi

That looks great jmart, especially for the first one. Drilling the screw holes is one of the more tricky steps in making a saw handle. A properly sized counterbore bit makes the job a lot faster and more accurate.


----------



## jmartel

Yeah, I dunno what happened. The drill bit grabbed and the handle slipped out of my hand. Oh well.










Back is cut to length, pinched, on the plate, and sanded up to 1000 grit. Not sure if I want to take it further or not.

Sharpening, finish, and trimming bolts to length are what's left. Super comfortable to hold. I think I picked a template off of a dovetail saw, though, because the cheek portions of the handle are pretty small compared to the saw plate.


----------



## summerfi

What handle template did you use? On polishing the brass backs, I usually sand to 600 and then polish with 0000 steel wool. I've used a buffer on some, but I've found that if you get them too shiny, every little scratch, even touching them with your bare hands, shows up and looks bad.


----------



## jmartel

I used the Marsh Backsaw template from here:

http://tgiag.com/saw-handle-scans.html

I think I'm going to leave it at 1000 grit. Nice and satiny.

And we're functional.










I used the existing geometry of the teeth to file, blue somax saw set on 10. It's a bit difficult to start, but once it gets going it's very aggressive. Averaging 15-16 strokes to full plate depth of 4". Tracks straight. Any variances on the lines are because I suck at sawing by hand.

Might re-file it later with a bit less rake.


----------



## MNclone

Good looking saw Jmart.

Quick question, how thick should the blade of a split nut driver be?


----------



## terryR

Nice work, JTote! Had no idea that was yer first. Dude! Lamb's tongue is sweet.

Clamp that tote to the drill press, tons of hours in it already.

Bob, where did you get good counterbore bits? They seem expensive…but I hate counterboring with a passion!


----------



## summerfi

Terry, for 7/16 screw heads I use the counterbore in the picture below. I got it through Amazon, but they are out of production right now and I couldn't get a 1/2" one. So for 1/2" I use an antique one of similar design but not as good. I want to replace it with one of the above if they ever come available again. There are other styles available too. Seems like the going rate is around $20 - $30.


----------



## terryR

Thanks. worth a $20 dollar bill to me!
I've bummed up dozens of holes on totes and knobs.


----------



## jmartel

> Nice work, JTote! Had no idea that was yer first. Dude! Lamb s tongue is sweet.
> 
> - terryR


I appreciate it. First but not last. Some things I would change but overall I'm very happy with my decision to build over just buying a Veritas tenon saw. Probably would have been happier with one from Bob though.

Next up after this saw would probably be a 14" or 16" crosscut. Don't have any crosscuts at the moment. Hopefully ErikF will be selling kits again by the time I'm ready for saw #2.


----------



## TobyC

jmartel,

Excellent!!!

The Marsh handle is one of my all time favorites!


----------



## paulm12

I picked this up at a garage sale. I assumed an older hack saw. I can't find any makers mark on it. Any ideas?










thanks


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

CE Jennings 10" dovetail saw I bought last year and sent out to be sharpened by Bob Summerfield. I stripped the handle after going back and forth over leaving it as was, but went ahead and refinished but left some traces of the yellow.




































The second one a Thos Turner,,I sent Bob required a little more,,new plate and sharpened Rip,  I love the London Pattern handles.!




































And the last is a Fenton & Marsdens,14" Xcut that I purchased from Bob thru his EBay site ,,and it has my favorite Handle pattern. ,! Can't recommend Bob's work enough.


----------



## CL810

Beautiful saws TC. Your pics are pretty nice too.


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

Thanks CL., I quit woodworking back in 2004 and these three will find a Hook on my bench as I get back into it this summer. Next up is fitting a new top and vises onto a existing bench I have. I have a nice old Disston & Sons 18" 10 tpi, Xcut panel saw that Bob cleaned and sharpened that I'm still finishing the handle and I'll post next week.


----------



## theoldfart

I'd like to see your bench turtle. Hmmm, bench turtle. great name for some sort of woodworking appliance!

Bob's saws are among my best tools. They cut extraordinarily straight and well.


----------



## summerfi

Nice job on the handles Turtle, and thanks for the kind words. I'm glad you removed most of the yellow.


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

Turtle is my moniker of myself Kevin as I'm a little slow these days. My wife still gets a chuckle out of it. The bench will be quite a bit different and set up where I can move it inside the house during the winter to work. I just have to claim a bed room and make a stand with the Lunch Lady. Ha.

Your welcome Bob, That Yellow had Charecter!


----------



## theoldfart

You mean, take a stand, right tough guy? 

Idea on portability sounds good and I'd do the same if I had five big burly moving guys!


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

I'll probably have to take her out somewhere nice to eat and throw in a couple pocket knives to sweeten the deal.


----------



## TheFridge

My wife would be really mad at me if I made a stand out of her. I can't imagine how long she would take to dry out.


----------



## onoitsmatt

Nice work Bob! Nice looking saws TC.


----------



## Brit

Lovely saws Turtle. With Bob's help they are good for another 100 years now.


----------



## bandit571

Had to "stone" the right side of the plate a bit. left the "fleam" as is. File was 90 to the plate. Might have tilted a degree or two for a slight rake..









Need to build a better saw vise. I have a couple others that need a bit of work. The $2 Disston D-23 6ppi seemed to cut nicely as a rip saw..









This is after the stone was used. Saw wanted to turn to the right. A few passes along the teeth cured that.

Might need to find a smaller file, as the other D-23 is a 9 ppi. Of course, I picked that one for free last year. Seems to be a decent enough crosscut saw, though.


----------



## Brit

Looking good Bandit.


----------



## builtinbkyn

Anyone have an idea on what this might be? It's a rip cut saw, but no markings that I can find other than the medallion. The blade is pretty well rusted so not sure if there's anything underneath that could identify it. I think it's well over 100 years old. Sat in my folks basement for almost 50 years and was a prior old house in that basement for maybe just as long. The medallion says "Warranted Superior" with an eagle.


----------



## donwilwol

> Anyone have an idea on what this might be? It s a rip cut saw, but no markings that I can find other than the medallion. The blade is pretty well rusted so not sure if there s anything underneath that could identify it. I think it s well over 100 years old. Sat in my folks basement for almost 50 years and was a prior old house in that basement for maybe just as long. The medallion says "Warranted Superior" with an eagle.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - builtinbkyn


Looks like an Atkins #56 or similar to me.


----------



## builtinbkyn

Thanks Don. It doesn't say Atkins like the other two, on the medallion, but I would have no idea. Maybe it's older and before they put their name on the medallion? Is it the handle decoration that leads you to that conclusion?

So I guess restoring this requires a new piece of steel - basically saving the tote and the metal hardware? Where would I get that? I'd prefer this to be a crosscut if possible, with like 11ppi.


----------



## jmartel

Did a coat of almost black dye, then sanded it off, and a coat of antique maple. Decided to go with the suggestions of a darker handle so that it didn't show as much dirt/grime. This is after one coat of shellac. Another coat or two, then wax and it's done.


----------



## donwilwol

> Thanks Don. It doesn t say Atkins like the other two, on the medallion, but I would have no idea. Maybe it s older and before they put their name on the medallion? Is it the handle decoration that leads you to that conclusion?
> 
> So I guess restoring this requires a new piece of steel - basically saving the tote and the metal hardware? Where would I get that? I d prefer this to be a crosscut if possible, with like 11ppi.
> 
> - builtinbkyn


I have one exactly like it. I think it's an Atkins with a Warranted superior Medallion. It probably had an etch for a hardware store or the like.


----------



## terryR

Very nice, JMart.

What brand of dye was it? Powder or liquid?


----------



## johnstoneb

That handle is nice. Jmart That dye really made the figure stand out.


----------



## jmartel

> Very nice, JMart.
> 
> What brand of dye was it? Powder or liquid?
> 
> - terryR


Transtint/Transfast. The Java was a powder, the antique maple was concentrated dye. I'll give it a good rub-down when I get home from work, some wax, and then put it into service.


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

Disston No 7 ,,18" panel saw 10ppi,Xcut,,plate cleaned and filed by Bob Summerfield. I'm not sure of the date but I do know they changed the handle and model number to D7 in 1928.








The handle was in pretty nice shape but a dark stain was deep in the grain so I did not sand to deep to take away the thickness. 3 coats of Tung oil so far and a little A1 sauce


----------



## theoldfart

Turtle,it never occurred to me to use A1 sauce as a finish. Do you buff it or just leave it?

Beautiful saw either way.


----------



## donwilwol

Lookin good turtle.


----------



## woodcox

Beautiful saw turtle. Is that considered a table saw?


----------



## summerfi

Turtle, the etch says that's a pre-1900 saw. I can't see the medallion well enough to be sure, but I'm thinking it's an 1880's saw.


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

I think 24" and below is called a table saw or bench saw Woodcox.

Kevin, I apply the A1 with a slice of sour dough bread and use circular motions, let it sit overnight and let the dog lick it clean the next morning.

Here is a close up of the Medalion Bob


----------



## theoldfart

I'm betting late 1860"s to early 1880's based on the etches in the Distonian Institute

Medallion says 1888 to 1896

Guess we'll let Bob sort it out


----------



## donwilwol

I think Bob was one of the Disston dudes in a former life.


----------



## theoldfart

^ probably still is !


----------



## summerfi

Yep, my middle name is Henry after the old man. Not really, but makes a nice story.

Kevin is correct, it's a 1888-96 medallion. So Kevin, how old were you when that saw was made?


----------



## Mosquito

I think today out in the sun I am going to finally tackle this guy


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

Thanks for the info on the Disston guys.

Mos I can't make out the name on the Medallion.? I can make out what looks like a medical symbol.,,Interesting !


----------



## Mosquito

Woodrough & McParlin. People that made the panther saws, though obviously not a panther saw, unfortunately lol


----------



## woodcox

Nice one mos.


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

That's going to clean up nice Mos. Only a little mouse bite on the horn.


----------



## theoldfart

Bob, maybe 'bout 10 or so ;-)


----------



## terryR

> Bob, maybe bout 10 or so ;-)
> 
> - theoldfart


LOL!

Mos, that's a keeper. Any idea of its' age?


----------



## summerfi

Here's my Woodrough & McParlin. I think it is one of the nicer American saws I own. The quality is at least as good as Disston's premium saws. Mine still has a partial label on the handle.


----------



## theoldfart

Bob, how the heck did you preserve the label and STILL get a great finish?

That saw is drop dead gorgeous, Mongo want saw! Mongo need saw! Will trade for choo-choo.


----------



## SuppressiveFire

Wow some really nices saws mos and slow guy. I'm still waiting to see that Disston No 12 Bob.


----------



## summerfi

It's in the saw vise now Ron. Should be ready for pictures soon.


----------



## bandit571

Next up in the sharpening line..









Disston No.7, 7ppi. with nib









Brass might need a bit of work, someday…









Teeth have plenty of set, too.


----------



## Mosquito

Not sure I want to show mine after Bobs lol I never go that far on the rehabs





































This is a big saw, at 28". It's 12" longer than the panel saw I made…










And then there's this lol


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

Mos, I'm wore out from all the work you Did..!!


----------



## Mosquito

Certainly was a lot of work, I spent probably 4 hours working on it out on the driveway today. At least I was outside in this strangely warm weather. I think it could use just a little bit more set, so I'll have to do that at some point. Also noticed the tooth line wasn't straight, so I'll have to keep that in mind as I sharpen over time, try to get that corrected


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

76 here in Ky today and a slight overcast. Looking forward to more of it.


----------



## Mosquito

Heck, we were almost that warm here in Minnesota! I think we hit 70 or 71 today here. Nice and sunny all day too. Crazy "winter"....


----------



## TobyC

> Kevin, I apply the A1 with a slice of sour dough bread and use circular motions, let it sit overnight and let the dog lick it clean the next morning.
> 
> - TheTurtleCarpenter


Now you tell us! I've been using soy sauce, wheat bread, rubbing against the grain, and a cat!!!


----------



## TobyC

Spectacular saws in this thread fellas, love 'em!


----------



## summerfi

Mos that looks great. You did a nice job. That's a really nice saw. I love those big rip saws.


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

Good Chuckle here Toby,, Do you heat that up in a Wok before you apply, cat or dog same effect.


----------



## Brit

Bandit - That is going to be a lovely saw when you get done sharpening it.

Mos - "And then there's this." That made me chuckle. Nice restore buddy.


----------



## theoldfart

Toby and Turtle, have you tried Wasabi?


----------



## donwilwol

Nice restore Mos. It looks great.


----------



## terryR

Beautiful work, Mos!
That till shot is priceless.


----------



## TobyC

> Good Chuckle here Toby,, Do you heat that up in a Wok before you apply, cat or dog same effect.
> 
> - TheTurtleCarpenter


Nah, straight from the bottle. The cat doesn't like to be woked! (wokked?)


----------



## theoldfart

So, cat on a hot tin wok? With sauce!


----------



## bandit571

Next on the sharpening line-up..









When I can get motivated again. 1/2" plywood for the jaws. Rippped a strip off the end of a sheet of plywood. No small feat, doing that in the Dungeon Shop. Back hurts, now.


----------



## TobyC

That's on the buffet down at the local Chinese restaurant!


----------



## Brit

Remember this 3ppi Spear & Jackson rip saw I recently acquired?


















I decided to restore and sharpen it this weekend. The plate needed quite a lot of work. It was bent a bit at the toe so I sorted that out. The set was all over the place so I hammered that out. The toothline was way out of whack both in terms of spacing, rake angle and tooth height. It took me a while before I realized that the saw went from 4 1/2 ppi at the toe, to 4 ppi, then to 3 1/2 ppi and finally 3 ppi. Normally when I sharpen saws I rely on my eye to ensure the teeth are equally spaced, but I found that harder to do with such big teeth, so I marked the 1/2" spacing between the points on the far side of my rake angle guide. Then it was just a case of moving the teeth until they lined up with the marks. Believe it or not the points actually do line up with the marks, it is just the camera lens that is distorting the image.










Some time ago I bought the Lee Valley set of Grobet Swiss saw files (which are actually made in India) and when I got them I looked at the biggest file in the tool roll and wondered what the hell I was going to do with that. Well today I found out. It was just big enough for 3 ppi teeth, but way too big for the Veritas file holder that I normally use to set my rake angle, hence the scrap of sapele. I sharpened it with 8 degrees of negative rake which as best I could tell was what the chap who sharpened it before me was aiming for.










Anyhow I got there in the end and here it is with a few of it's friends.


----------



## theoldfart

Wow.


----------



## Mosquito

Dang, nice work Andy!


----------



## onoitsmatt

Nice job Andy! Those are some mammoth teeth. I've got the same set of files and wondered the same thing about the big one. I've got an old D8 that's about 4ppi that may be the saw that will use that biggun.


----------



## donwilwol

Nice set Andy (saw that's is)


----------



## Brit

Thanks guys, here's another group shot which I forgot to post earlier.


----------



## summerfi

That turned out beautiful, Andy, but I bet your arms are tired. After I reshape coarse teeth, I need to rest awhile. I have to wear a glove and still the palm of my hand gets sore from the file handle. I've never done a saw coarser than 4 ppi though. You got a workout my friend.


----------



## DanKrager

Love that 3 pointer, Brit. I have a very similar one that was in worse condition, and did not come back to be as good looking as yours, but It seems to work like a new one!
DanK


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

I'll give you $8 and three clock radios for that saw Brit.! That said I love it.!


----------



## ColonelTravis

Andy, beautiful job on those saws. I may have missed this, sorry, but what would you use that 3 pt for?


----------



## Brit

Bob - Yeah I have got a bit of a sore shoulder now. I never notice it at the time because I'm in the zone, but it hits me later after I've finished.

Turtle - 4 alarm clocks? No thanks. I want to wake up gently, not set off a chain reaction. )

Colonel - Well I haven't tried it yet so I might not use it at all, but since I don't have a band saw I hope to use it for ripping stock over 2" thick. For example, sizing blocks of wood for carving in the round. I'll see if I can shoot a quick video showing the difference between a 3 ppi saw and a 5 or 6 ppi saw when cutting thick wood.


----------



## CFrye

I'd love to see the video, Andy! 
Beautiful saws, all. 
Be honest, y'all. Who else, upon seeing this image…


> - Mosquito


had to suppress the impulse to reach out and try to clean it for a better view?


----------



## donwilwol

That's funny Candy. I had the same thought!


----------



## Brit

You two need to step away from the computer. )


----------



## terryR

> That s funny Candy. I had the same thought!
> 
> - Don W


Yep, me too! Too easy to just swipe my finger across the screen.

Spectacular saws, Andy!


----------



## summerfi

Here's that 1875 Disston No. 12 with cone nuts. Thanks to SupressiveFire for sending me two original screws, which I used as a pattern for making new screws. Since someone had drilled larger holes in the plate, I made a design change to the screws to account for that, then my son turned them on his metal lathe. In external appearance, no one would ever be able to tell them from originals. This is a 28" 5 ppi rip saw.

*Before*









*After*


----------



## CL810

Beautiful!


----------



## jmartel

Damn, Bob. That's awesome looking.


----------



## summerfi

This is a little Spear & Jackson panel saw that I made a new beech handle for. I tried to make it look old with some variable shading like I did on Smitty's table saw.




























I like to put together families of saws of like brand, and here is my Spear & Jackson family. 28" rip saw, the 20" panel, and a little 15" panel that has been cut down. I made the handle for the 15" saw a couple years ago and finished it natural. I've now refinished it to make it more closely match the others.


----------



## chrisstef

Youre a magician Bob.


----------



## ToddJB

Tremendous job, Bob. You started on that second saw till, yet?


----------



## summerfi

No Todd, when the till gets full I have to sell something.


----------



## SuppressiveFire

Wow! Good stuff Bob! Did you blue over the etch? That saw looks amazing!


----------



## summerfi

No I didn't Ron. That's just the way it came out.


----------



## putty

That is great Bob, Did you blue the washers?

Nice nest of Spear and Jacksons too!!!


----------



## summerfi

Yes, putty, the washers are blued.


----------



## Brit

You did it proud Bob. How did you get rid of the stain on the grip? Did it sand out or was there some oxalic acid involved?


----------



## summerfi

Andy, I just washed that handle off with Simple Green and then with Bar Keeper's Friend and the stain was gone. The latter contains a little oxalic acid, so that may have done the trick.


----------



## ColonelTravis

All you guys are inspiring, thanks for showing off this stuff.


----------



## terryR

Wow, glad I had tickets to THAT show, Bob!
Awe struck again…


----------



## donwilwol

That is exceptional Bob!!


----------



## TobyC

Beautiful work, Bob,!


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

A Saw worth a Derby hat and Sunday vest photo shoot.!


----------



## bandit571

Not quite as fancy as some on here..









Sharpened and shined up









I think the handle can stay as is?









Camera isn't picking up the very readable etch…..H. Disston & Sons Small keystone, then a large "No. 7" below that. 7ppi. 26" long. Still has that "Piiiiing" in the plate. And a nib.

Might be a keeper?


----------



## ToddJB

Looks like a keeper to me, Bandit.


----------



## Brit

Well done Bandit, that's a good user.


----------



## DylanC

So, I've been talking to the guy listing the Foley retoother, filer, etc. that I posted about a few weeks ago. He's willing to negotiate on the price, but I want to know what I'm getting into. The biggest questions I have are:

1. If making new saw plates (traditional saws, not backsaws) how are you saw makers shaping the plates? Scoring and snapping, shearing, something else entirely?

2. Would it be possible to fabricate "custom" ratchet bars rather than hunt for and pay outrageous prices for the 14/15/16 tpi bars? I'm thinking even UHMW/HDPE might work OK and be able to be fabricated with basic power tools.


----------



## summerfi

Dylan -
1. I cut my plates out with a thin cutoff wheel. I used to use a pneumatic tool, but I've recently switched to electric and like it better. I'm thinking about getting a large shear though.

2. In my experience it's nearly impossible to find the 14/15/16 ratchet bars. ErikF has made some ratchet bars. You might contact him. I've asked him to make me some when he has the time.


----------



## Brit

Dylan - You said you are intending to make "traditional saws not backsaws" so I doubt you will have any use for the 14/15/16 tpi ratchet bars unless I'm missing something.


----------



## DylanC

> Dylan - You said you are intending to make "traditional saws not backsaws" so I doubt you will have any use for the 14/15/16 tpi ratchet bars unless I m missing something.
> 
> - Brit


I would probably make both, I was just not sure how to make the longer cuts needed for that type of saw. Right now I am mulling it over. I don't plant to sell saws or kits, there are enough people doing that (at a higher level than I ever could) that I don't think I could contribute anything new. I'm thinking I would mostly make saws for my own use and for a few friends. For that, I could just buy some kits from TGIAG for almost the same cost that I could get the materials and make my own. Hard to make the financial justification for this equipment.


----------



## JayT

> Hard to make the financial justification for this equipment.
> 
> - DylanC


Wait, we have to make financial justification for our woodworking toys …. ahem, tools? When did that start? 

A Foley retoother and filer would be cool to have, but I agree that unless you are planning to go into business making or sharpening saws, it's hard to justify. For most of us, the space is as difficult, if not more so, than the cost.


----------



## Mosquito

Hopefully he keeps in contact Dylan. I had set up to meet him, but after I e-mailed asking about a time that worked I never heard back…


----------



## Mosquito

After thinking about it I just went back and looked, turns out it ended up in the junk folder, despite 5-6 messages making it to the inbox fine before that… Dang! Now I look like the jerk who fell off the face of the earth…

Oh well, I probably didn't need it anyway…


----------



## theoldfart

With everything I'm dealing with right now I needed something to provide a distraction, so….









I cut the stretcher about 3/8" to short but not bad for a first try


----------



## summerfi

It looks good to me Kevin. Have you done any sawing with it yet?


----------



## theoldfart

Not yet Bob. I just got the blades from TFWW yesterday. I had to punch out the pins and enlarge the holes. I still need to get some woven twine and make a toggle. Interestingly the mortise shoullders in the arms are not curved so I think the fit of the tenon shoulder on the stretcher relative to the arm needs to be perfect with full contact all around. Any thoughts on this?


----------



## summerfi

I've never seen one of those in person Kev, but what you said sounds right. May have to mark it with a pencil and shave a little off where you see a rub mark.


----------



## theoldfart

That's the plan Bob, thanks.


----------



## terryR

Sure looks nicely shaped, Kevin.
Walnut and maple?


----------



## theoldfart

Terry, I have no idea on the vintage parts but the stretcher is mahogany.


----------



## Brit

Kev - My advice would be to cut a new stretcher. 3/8" is quite a bit and although you could adjust the shoulders so they fitted the sides when the saw was under the correct tension, the alignment of the handles relative to the blade would then be off. Just my opinion though and it looks terrific apart from that.


----------



## theoldfart

Andy, I agree with having to recut the stretcher for the same reasons as you. The blade would pull on the pins at an angle if the stretcher did not create a right angle to the pins.


----------



## realcowtown_eric

Great saws guys! tool porn to be sure.

Eric


----------



## theoldfart

Stretcher #2, it works!


















Some fine tuning, shaping the stretcher and a better toggle up next.

A question, cut on the push or pull stroke? Preferences?


----------



## terryR

That's a beautiful saw, Kevin. No advise on how to use it, just enjoying the curves!


----------



## putty

Nice Job Kevin! What is the traditional shape of the toggle?

Edit: I was going to say that it would be an easy thing to turn the blade for push or pull. After looking again there is no need!


----------



## Brit

Looking good Kev! I have one like that and I crap myself every time I take one of the pins out in case I lose it.


----------



## theoldfart

Push is much better









Putty, if you look closely, the handle on one side is different than the other side. The larger is a handler the smaller is called a toe. I'm still looking at toggles for design ideas and may add a whorl. The two pieces together are called a windlass.

Andy, the pins are tiny brads! Got plenty of them.


----------



## CFrye

Great looking and performing saw, Kevin!


----------



## Brit

I just picked these two up for £8 each. 28" Fenn saw and a 22" Nurse and Co. Never heard of Fenn saws before but it looks like a nice saw regardless. Maybe Bob can find them in his book.


----------



## CFrye

Andy, is the tote on the Nurse saw damaged? Looks abruptly flat on the underside. And was that a typo? You bought a 28" saw?


----------



## theoldfart

I think the Nurse saw has a London pattern handle. Andy do I have the name right?

Candy, aesthetically, I don't like the pattern because of your comment. They look damaged to me as well.


----------



## bandit571

I could be wrong, but, you might find that a brass plate resided along the bottom edge.


----------



## summerfi

Well I'll be darned. Andy finally has a 28" saw. Where's Toby?

Fenn, Joseph
London
105 Newgate Street 1855-1871
10 Railway Approach, London Bridge 1874-1876
Saw, file, tool, and planemaker.
These dates are the saw making listings. BPM3 documents an important and much longer history of tool making in London (1853-1909), with a changing emphasis after 1874 to engineering tools.

The above from British Saws and Saw Makers from 1660.


----------



## Mosquito

Don't lie Andy, you only bought that 28" saw because of this, didn't you ;-)


----------



## donwilwol

Am I hearing this right? Andy bought a nurse with an abruptly flat underside?


----------



## summerfi

"First let me say that there won't be any 28" saws in my till." - Brit, 26/1/16

Where you going to keep that saw Andy? LOL

It's a nice saw BTW, and I hope you do keep it.


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

2 Great finds Andy.! I personally have a sweet spot for the London pattern. Keepers.!


----------



## jmartel

Flat bottomed saws, you make the rockin' world go round.


----------



## theoldfart

^ spinal tap?


----------



## Brit

Sorry for the delay. I'm trying to make a shooting board whilst cooking some meatballs and tagliatelle. I've never been good at multi-tasking.

You guys are killing me with the humor (American spelling).

Thanks for the info Bob - much appreciated. The reason I bought that 28" saw was because I wanted the Nurse and also because I'm hoping to buy another 28" saw this week and I didn't want it to be lonely. All will be revealed. I'm chuffed that I got them for such a good price. I thought they would go for much more than that.

Kev - jmartel was quoting the Queen song 'Fat Bottomed Girls'.


----------



## Brit

BTW - The Nurse is just a London Pattern handle. There is nothing broken or missing.


----------



## summerfi

Have you ever had someone unexpectedly do something so nice for you that it blew you away? Read on.

You may recall this saw that *onoitsmatt *posted about three weeks ago. It's by Wheeler Madden & Clemson. WMC saws are not abundant to begin with. Brass backed American saws are not common, and one with an open handle is less common still. This saw is in particularly nice shape, especially for it's age. WMC started making saws with that name in 1860 (previously it had been Wheeler Madden & Bakewell) and continued until they merged with the American Saw Company sometime in the 1890's.










When Matt posted that picture, I commented on what a nice saw it was. Soon thereafter, I received a PM from Matt asking if I would clean the saw up and sharpen it for him. I was happy to do so, and Matt put the saw in the mail. When it arrived, I PM'ed Matt to let him know and to ask specifically what work he wanted me to do. I also said if he ever decides to sell or trade the saw, please let me know. Matt responded back by saying he wants me to keep the saw in appreciation for my participation on this thread and for help and advice I've been able to give others about saws. As you might expect, I was humbled and surprised.

Thank you Matt. As I said in my PM, the saw will have a nice home in my till, and if you ever decide you want it back, just let me know. Here's the saw after I cleaned it up and sharpened it.


----------



## chrisstef

Some of the finest folks in this world are woodworkers, I'm convinced. Congrats on the saw Bob and right on Matt!


----------



## theoldfart

Way to go Matt, what a fine thing to do.

Bob the saw looks great, treasure it.


----------



## Brit

Way to go Matt! Enjoy it Bob!


----------



## onoitsmatt

Saw looks great, Bob! Will look good in that luxury saw condo you call a till.


----------



## putty

You are a great guy Matt…good things happen to good people!

Bob, nice cleanup on it…looks like new!!! I have never seen beech on an old saw such a light color.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Good stuff Matt. If anyone deserves a little love and appreciation around here, it's Bob. I've givin him a big e-bear hug a couple times….but it's not the same.


----------



## terryR

Beautiful saw and gesture!


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

Great Community of guys here @ LumberJocks.! I know and see it everyday.
Matt,,,,,I think you hit the Bullseye with Bob.


----------



## bandit571

Had the Disston D-8 down from the till today…...mold was starting on the handle. Stripped it down, and refinished. Brass was shined up. Saw teeth were filed. 









Disston D-8 from 1953. Same age as me. 8ppi filed crosscut. "Brass" is brass plated. 26" skew back. Handle is a closed top. Medallion merely says Disston…









Not too bad a saw, not as old or fancy as some on here..


----------



## CL810

Matt that's an awesome gesture! Knowing the saw is truly appreciated by Bob makes it cool. Anyway, good karma coming your way, I'm sure.


----------



## TheFridge

Couldn't ask for a better custodian


----------



## Brit

I've always had a soft spot for W. Tyzack, Sons & Turner saws. I've got four of their backsaws and three of their handsaws. The first handsaw I got was a No.3 which I've posted here a number of times. The other two I've got are both No.2s and they are waiting in the restore pile. I've been looking out for a No.1 for the past three years and during that time I've only seen one on ebay which unfortunately I didn't win. Tonight I bid on another one and this time I got it. The No.1 was the rip saw of the group and therefore I'm afraid I now have TWO 28" saws and they are both two inches more than I'll ever use. LOL.










(seller's photos)




























I might need to re-tooth this one as the teeth are in pretty bad shape.


----------



## ToddJB

Congrats on being (2 inches) big enough to eat your words, Andy. That is a cool saw that I'm sure you will give a great home.


----------



## summerfi

Congrats, Andy, on a great find. I only have one Tyzack saw, but I have no clue what number it is. I believe it has a stamp rather than an etch. It is also the only saw I have with an arrised handle. I'll be looking forward to seeing that one when you get it restored. You need to get to work on a (large) till soon!


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

That's a great find Andy. Since you lost the first time bidding, you probably had a Snipe attack strategy in place for this one. Look forward to the restore.


----------



## donwilwol

You've gained one hell of a set Andy. I'm glad you overcame your 28" fear. Who knows what's next.


----------



## Brit

Thanks guys.

*Todd* - You know it is funny because when I posted my list of saws and said I didn't want any 28" saws, I kind of knew I might have to eat my words. There aren't many of us on this thread that will turn down an otherwise good saw just because it isn't quite what we want. I am fortunate, when it comes to saws at least, that I have the ability to change most things if I think it necessary.

*Turtle* - My bidding strategy is a closely guarded secret. Suffice it to say that it seems to be working. )

*Bob* - Love to see a photo of your Tyzack if you get a chance.

*Don* - I could still do with a couple more smaller panel saws and then I think I'm good. After that if I see a saw I want to buy, I'll be selling one I've already got.


----------



## terryR

Also a Tyzack fan…a newer 120 for me in the backsaw till. FWIW, recently sharpened by Mr.Bob, and so sharp I'm wary of the teeth!

Looking forward to seeing the No.1 restored! Sheffield etches are special to me…


----------



## kwigly

Andy, Its interesting that your Tyzacks have saw model numbers.
I have a couple of old Elephant brand Tyzacks with the same etch as your No 1, (Nice saw ! ), they also have an additional Elephant etch, but although the etches are fairly clear there is no evidence of a saw No.


----------



## summerfi

> *Bob* - Love to see a photo of your Tyzack if you get a chance.
> - Brit


Here's my Tyzack, Andy. It's unfortunate that it's so pitted, but otherwise it's a nice saw. I was wrong yesterday; it does have an etch, but like kwigly's, mine has no number.


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

There is a Character in these old Saws not found in other old tools.


----------



## Brit

Kwigly - Mine has the additional elephant etch too, but I didn't want to upload too many photos. Ok, if you insist )










With regards to the saw number, I get the feeling that Tyzack played around with the etches that appeared on their saws a bit. I have a PDF catalogue of Tyzack saws from the 1920s and they all have a number. Some of their saws had an additional etch nearer the handle at approx. 45 degrees with statements like this:










I have seen this statement on a No.2 panel saw, but it doesn't appear in the picture of a No.2 in the 1920s catalogue. It may be that prior to the 1920s they used the same etch, but didn't include the numbers. It could also be possible that saws intended for export did not include the numbers. I don't know.


----------



## Brit

Turtle - Ain't that the truth!

On the face of it, a saw is a very simple tool. To the uninitiated it is just a metal plate with teeth screwed to a lump of wood, but when you've held and used a nice saw from the late 19th to early 20th century, you soon realize how much saw making knowledge and experience has been lost. These were the days when hand saws were a wage-earning tool and craftsmen would only accept the very best. For those who are interested in reading it, here is an exert from the forward at the beginning of the Tyzack catalogue where they explain the 20 processes that went into making a saw. It is long, but will hopefully be of interest to regulars of this thread.

"It may be of interest to many users to understand some of the
processes necessary to produce a good Hand Saw and also to receive a few hints on the best
way of preparing one for work and keeping it in the most serviceable condition. There is no
doubt that the first and most important consideration is the selecting of the raw material,
which should be a good crucible steel for preference, and one that will admit of the necessary
hardening and tempering in due course.
After the steel is melted in ingot form it is rolled into sheets of requisite thickness, and pared
into shape, ready for cutting the teeth, which is usually done by automatic machinery. After
this the Saw Plate is ready for the important process of hardening and tempering. The
hardening is effected by heating to a red heat, and plunging into oil, with the result that the
plate becomes as hard and brittle as glass-in other words it is carried from one extreme to
another. This brittleness is, of course, quite useless for practical purposes and must be
reduced by the application of further heat. By this means, and by the most careful
judgement, we can arrive at the exact toughness or temper to secure a keen cutting edge,
together with perfect flexibility. Leaving the hardening process, the plate is now ready to be
flattened by the Saw Maker or Saw Smith-and here again we have a highly technical process.
It is not merely sufficient to flatten, but it is necessary to adjust the tension, so that when in
use and subject to expansion on the edge it will not warp or buckle. Another object in
flattening is to prepare for grinding and polishing. In the old days grinding was done by hand
on power-driven circular stones, but to a large extent this has been superseded by machinery.
The chief object of grinding is to gradually taper the thickness from teeth to back, so that the
saw may be used with little set on the teeth, and thereby cut cleaner and with less waste of
wood. After grinding, the blade is passed through a polishing machine to get a high
finish on the surface, and then the saw maker takes it again and finally adjusts it quite flat and
true. At this point, owing to these various processes having taken out some of the flexibility, it
is usual to re-heat the blade to an exact degree in a special furnace to restore the temper. We
now have a polished blade of perfect temper and finish, but not yet ready for use. Nothing has
been done to give the cutting qualities to the teeth. Here again, though the work is more
mechanical and requires less skill and judgment than hammering and tempering, it is of the
greatest importance. Previous to sharpening, the teeth are "set", that is, every other tooth bent
over in one direction and the remainder in the opposite direction, to give clearance when
passing through the wood. There are two usual methods of setting, one by holding the teeth
over a small anvil with a rounded edge, and giving them a slight stroke with a hammer, and
another by fixing the blade rigid in a vice and bending the teeth with a saw-set. Sometimes
patent sets of various designs are used, but these require care, as we shall explain shortly.
When the setting has been done evenly, the teeth are sharpened with a file on the cross, so that
each point represents the corner of a bevelled triangle. Correct setting and sharpening are of
vital importance in securing smooth and easy cutting, and many saws are condemned owing
to irregularity and carelessness in this respect. . We have not yet, however, arrived at a
complete saw, and the next stage is to provide a handle. The making of saw handles is
quite a trade in itself and needs an apprenticeship to become an expert. While handles are
made from a variety of woods, English beech is most commonly used and is generally
accepted as being most satisfactory. It admits of a clean, smooth finish and is very
durable. It is cut from the tree in planks one inch thick, marked with the design, and sawn into
shape with a band-sawing machine. It is then moulded on the edges, slit down the centre to
admit the blade, bored for brass screws, and finally French polished. When the handle is
attached to the blade we have the complete saw-perfectly flexible-brightly polished-ground
thin to back for clearance-well set and sharpened-both ornamental and a useful addition to
every carpenter's outfit, having taken in all twenty processes to produce."

That's what we've lost folks and is the reason why it is incumbent on us to take care of the saws that remain. We are but caretakers.


----------



## theoldfart

I find it astounding that I can get vintage saws built with the above process for just a few dollars. Seems that if it aint shiney it doesn't attract people. Oh well, better for us that way.


----------



## summerfi

Hey, that's just the way I do it! (kidding)

Not only is the making of saws interesting, but the history of saws and saw making is truly fascinating. It is filled with stories of brilliant innovation, hardships overcome, cutthroat competition, empire building, and near-slavery in horrid working conditions. It's a long story too, going all the way back to the very beginnings of history itself. There are many publications on saw history, but here's a good place to start: Story of the Saw . Also see The Saw in History


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

. It seems as though they take on a Personality after you clean and shine them.. It seems like a Tired Old Man stands up out of his chair with his Chest puffed out with his Best old suit coat on, the handle and Medalion the suit , the Etch his knowledge and the pitting and kinks from a hard life.


----------



## donwilwol

> . It seems as though they take on a Personality after you clean and shine them.. It seems like a Tired Old Man stands up out of his chair with his Chest puffed out with his Best old suit coat on, the handle and Medalion the suit , the Etch his knowledge and the pitting and kinks from a hard life.
> 
> - TheTurtleCarpenter


I can see that!


----------



## theoldfart

Well said Jeff.


----------



## grfrazee

> It is then moulded on the edges, slit down the centre to
> admit the blade, bored for brass screws, and finally French polished.


Interesting that they French polished the handles, when nearly everyone here just applies a couple coats of BLO. Has anyone actually French polished a saw handle?


----------



## terryR

Not a french polish, but 3coats of Arm-R-Seal, sanded with 1000 grit between coats to remove holidays and spots.










Trying to get away from BLO on tools since my dirty hands keep darkening the wood/oil.


----------



## DylanC

So, I'm not sure if my wife is going to let me hang out here anymore. For no good reason, I've got a Foley retoother, filer, and setting tool in the trunk of my car right now. Got a handful of old saw files in on the deal and 4 saws. Everything belonged to this guy's grandpa, and when I asked if there were any old saws laying around, he pulled out a box of 8 handsaws. I picked four of the older, more interesting ones and asked if he would throw them in on the deal. I'll post pictures in the next day our two.


----------



## Mosquito

Nice…

I've got some space you could store them in, until your wife comes around ;-)


----------



## chrisstef

grf - I kind of French polish my saw handles. I don't go as far as using rottenstone but thin shellac wiped on and wax is the only finish I use on handles for my saws. Takes me about an hour to do a handle and the feel is buttery.


----------



## Pimzedd

Went to an estate sale this morning to look at some ham radios. Didn't buy any radios but for some unknown reason, I bought these up for $5 ea. Like I need more handsaws that I don't know anything about. Also got a Stanley #4C plane, same price.










The top three are Disston D-23. Top one is 5 1/2 tpi, middle is 8 and bottom is 11. All have etches that are very visible.

The bottom is an Atkins, my first. The blade is very black, is this normal?


----------



## Brit

Well it shouldn't be black, but vintage saws often are until they are cleaned up.


----------



## putty

Is it the carbon content of the steel that causes it to turn black?


----------



## onoitsmatt

I found this at an antique mall for $8. There was an area that was entirely outdoors. Completely unprotected from the elements. Lots of rusty junk out there. I saw this and thought, "If I don't buy it, nobody will." It was so tattered even thd price tag was worn to be barely legible.










I didn't think the plate wiuld be salvageable but it all cleaned up nicely.










I filed it crosscut. Now it cuts like butter… As long as I'm cutting butter. Need to refine my sharpening skills. But cleaned up better than I thought it would!


----------



## DylanC

Here are the four saws I got yesterday that came with the Foley equipment. They were "stored" in a rotten box next to a semi-indoor wood pile, so they show a bit of that neglect in their current condition. I'll start at the top and work down.

The first is a 26" long, 5 1/2 PPI Disston D-12, probably 1930s based on the (very readable) etch and medallion. The downside? Insect damage and a few cracks in the handle.





































The second is a 1950's D-8. Again 26" long, 6 PPI, and a skew back. Not much to say, other than this saw has the best handle of the lot.




























The third was really the one that caught my attention. It's an Atkins 64, I believe. 26" long, 8 PPI. The double-nib handle has a broken top horn, but is in otherwise fair shape with a very attractive engraving. And it's got a blade nib. Not sure of the age, But I'm guessing a hundred years or so. Any help with the date would be appreciated.














































And the last one is a 26" 8 PPI George Bishop. The only info I found online points to a date of somewhere before 1899 based on a barely visible etch with Cincinnati listed as the location of manufacture. The handle is in fair shape, with only some blunting of the horns. There is a double nib on the handle, and a nib on the plate. Could this be the diamond in the rough?





































I don't plan on jumping right into restoring these. I've got enough other things to get done in the next few months that these may be a project for next winter. In the meantime, I'm open to suggestions on the best way to make these back into user saws. For instance, should the Disston handle with the insect damage be repaired or replaced?

Oh, the Foley stuff also included 10-11 each unused 6" XS and XXS files, old USA Nicholsons as well as two dozen used but still usable files in regular through XXS sizes and another 18 or so in really large sizes. #63 and #64 bandsaw files as well as one size around 5" long with flats around 3/4" and no tang for a handle.


----------



## knockknock

> Is it the carbon content of the steel that causes it to turn black?
> - putty


It's just rust. Depending on the conditions as the iron/steel rusts, different ferrous oxides form.


----------



## Pimzedd

Putty and Knockknock

I guess it is just oxidation as opposed to rust. all the Disston's I buy just seem to have rust. I was wondering if it was something that just happens to Atkins saws.

We will see, if I ever get around to cleaning it up. Seems I buy saws and planes to clean up and never get to it.


----------



## putty

I have some old pocket knives that the blades turned black on. Not rusty though. I thought it was from the high carbon content. Oxidation makes sense.


----------



## DylanC

From the Wikipedia article on ferrous oxide:

Iron(II) oxide or ferrous oxide is the inorganic compound with the formula FeO. Its mineral form is known as wüstite. One of several iron oxides, it is a black-colored powder that is sometimes confused with rust, which consists of hydrated iron(III) oxide (ferric oxide, Fe2O3).


----------



## woodcox

I have found what I think is black soot from wood or maybe coal heated shops on some of my old wooden plane restos. Smells that way too.

Dylan's example was likely on my little Disston.


----------



## bandit571

Yard sale season has started around here…..two saws today









One was a very nice Parker Line hacksaw. the other was a Great Neck No.9









The GN isn't too hateful…..the Parker Line even has brass bolts for the handle. These two were part of a $10 group of things…..12v. Makita battery that fits my drill….a few "HICRAFT" auger bits (missing one bit)








Guide thingy is a General No.810…..
And a couple Stanley chisels. Not too sure about that sharpening guide, just yet…..not too bad a morning?


----------



## WillliamMSP

Finally working on the Sargent back saw that I picked up last month. The teeth were a little wonky, and I think that I need to take a breather before I go cross-eyed with all of the jointing, shaping and sharpening. Much respect to those of you that do this regularly.


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## Brit

This 26" Drabble and Sanderson made me chuckle. There's stamping your name and then there's STAMPING YOUR NAME!!! What made me laugh was the fact that not only did he use such huge letters, but he then did it again upside down so he could tell it was his saw whichever way he approached it.










Seller says: "The top side of the handle has the initials J. E twice deeply and expertly carved in in a lovely font." It definitely looks stamped to me. If it was, it makes me cringe to think of the force that handle was subject to in order to mark those letters. Still I guess it does show a certain pride in their work, unlike a later owner's claim to the saw on the reverse side. Just in case you were wondering, the seller says "The structure is uncompromised by the crack in the wooden handle." Yeah right!










Apparently it also has a "Nice sharp blade."










He was right about one thing though. The saw is "Full of character, and undoubtedly could tell a story or two."


----------



## summerfi

If that saw could speak, it's first word would probably be "ouch". All that character has to be worth a lot though.


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## TheTurtleCarpenter

I kind of feel sorry for that Ol'e saw.! It reminds me of my little dog i rescued off the roadway,,a huge overbite and a bad rear leg that flops out to the side when he runs.


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## terryR

LOL Andy.

I thought your secret to a lovely restored saw was to start with something nicer? That guy will be a painful workout!


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## Brit

It is Terry. I just clicked on it out of curiosity, there's no way I would buy it.


----------



## planepassion

I'm with you Andy. I'd buy a sound saw, even one with horn chips needing repair. But an owner-modified nose, plus stamped initials that mar the look and integrity of the handle would be a bridge too far in my opinion.


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## summerfi

I posted this on my website, but I thought it would be good to post it here as well. The volume of my commissioned saw work has increased to the point where I have little time for anything else. Since I have a busy summer planned, I'm temporarily suspending accepting new saw orders or saw restoration work for a few months, beginning April 1. I'll resume accepting commissions again in the fall. An exception is saw sharpening. I'll find time for that, though there may be delays. Visit my website if you'd like more info.


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## BigRedKnothead

Sorry Bob. I should have kept you a secret;-)


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## TheTurtleCarpenter

I found this old Simmonds Sun, Moon and star Xcut saw and it had the worst pitting that i have come across but it was $5 and I couldn't pass it up. It looked like a perfect companion for my little bench saw so i did a matching trim job to the plate and filed all the teeth off so i can file it Rip. This will be my first time starting from scratch and will be a learning experience. Its missing one bolt and nut but i might replace those with some new split nuts off the web.


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## woodcox

How late are tyzack panel saws desirable? Are our modern tyzack saws constructed with decent quality? Plates or steel in particular. Maybe rehang an uggo.


----------



## SuppressiveFire

Turtle! That is an interesting idea you have and can't wait to see the end result. That's a good medallion too.


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## TheTurtleCarpenter

SF, all saws need a good home and a new lease on life.! Cutting these new teeth will be a challenge and all i have to lose is my time. I have the handle reshaped now and put some chestnut stain on to contrast from the diston and ill finish it with some shallac tomorrow.


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## Ripthorn

Hi all, my first time on this thread, mostly because I don't use hand saws a ton (stop it with the rotten vegetables, already!), but I do use them. My wife and I went to an antique fair and I found a lovely little saw. From what I can tell, it appears to be a Disston No. 7 from somewhere between 1871 and 1918, based on the bright steel back, deep V notched tote, and stamping on spine. It is reasonably sharp, it's straight, the tote has cracked and been repaired, and there is a little bit of rust, but I plan to just clean off the rust and use it as is for the time being, with one possible exception. Someone used a screw, square nut, and washers in the place of the medallion. Is there a particular style I need to look for here? Would any of you fine gents have one kicking around? Am I right about this being a No 7?

Edit: Helps to have photos, no?


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## summerfi

Brian - Your saw may be a #7. The #4 with blued steel back was more common, but the bluing is often worn off, making it hard to tell the difference. With the handle off, there is usually some bluing remaining on the end of the spine on a #4 where the handle protected it from wear. That's your best bet for identifying the saw number with certainty. As for a medallion, I would check ebay. I see them there all the time, and you can usually pick up a medallion with screws for around $10. Most likely your saw is from the 1896 - 1917 era, so that's the medallion I would look for. Make sure you get one of the proper diameter though. Backsaw medallions are usually smaller than handsaw medallions.


----------



## donwilwol

Yesterday's projects


----------



## theoldfart

Don, what size on the saws?


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## donwilwol

> Don, what size on the saws?
> 
> - theoldfart


26 1/2"

X 5"


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## DWeir

Ripthorn,

More than likely you have a No.4 on your hands. One of the true tell tales of a No.7 is double hounds teeth or nibs in front of the top horn and the lower horn. This feature was usually used on premium back saws which included the brass backed No.5, polished steel back No.7 and the No.77 no-set. The No.4 had the lone hounds tooth in front of the top horn only.

As Bob stated, bluing will usually show up on the portion of the back that was protected by the handle mortise when the handle is removed on a No.4. I've also seen where this isn't the case from of a earlier cleaning when the handle was removed by a previous owner. The factory bluing is easily removed with a light abrasive sanding. So once again, if there's no bluing when you remove the handle doesn't automatically make this a No.7.

Now that I've given that secret away, I'll probably never find a deal on the premium back saws again! ;^)


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## johnstoneb

This project doesn't have much to do with handsaws but Bob's (summerfi) sawtill made me go a little fit over on a storage cabinet. Thanks Bob, I think

http://lumberjocks.com/projects/236594


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## Ripthorn

Thanks for the info, gents. This is one size up from the Veritas dovetail and crosscut saws that I have, so it should do nicely. As you say, it probably is a No 4, I just don't have much experience with vintage saws.


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## summerfi

That looks great Bruce! Glad I could help. ;-)


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## chrisstef

Werent the 7's and 77's true canted blades as well?

The v notch is my favorite handle disston put out. Nice grab rip.

Nice pull yoda.

Will carbide tipped twist bits work all right in drilling out spring steel or should i spring for the spade bit from blackburn?


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## summerfi

Stef are you talking like a carbide tipped masonry bit? I've never tried one but some folks say they work OK if you grind a different angle. The spade bits are cheap enough you should have one anyway. Amazon also has them in various sizes. You'll be amazed how well they work.


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## chrisstef

Yea bob the masonry one. How about the gold colored cobalt one? Ill most likely scoop some from amazon as suggested but im just curious.


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## summerfi

Don't know about the gold ones Stef. The spades work so well that after I got them I don't use anything else.


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## chrisstef

Roger that. Thanks bob.


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## Johnny7

I am thrilled to see posts by the legendary Daryl Weir (#12839) above-

might want to consider some kind of keyboard drool-guard for if/when he starts posting pics of his restorations.


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## theoldfart

Aw hell, I do that all the time on his 'Bay posts. He keeps putting 15 1/2's and 16 1/2's with saws out there( at least I think its his work) and I really want one.


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## TheTurtleCarpenter

I took my time and ground the teeth off and set up for an 8tpi rip pattern.




























Now everything was looking pretty decent










The next step was to put a slight set in the teeth and i set the gauge for 12tpi. Now Good Time Charley has the Blues.!










This plate was badly pitted and thin, I dont know if it was the condition of the steel or the pressure from the sawset i was applying but I ended up with three fractured teeth.


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## chrisstef

Ugh, I hate when that happens Turtle. Hearing that distinct crunch sucks. Good news is that a couple of missing teeth wont kill ya.


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## donwilwol

> Ugh, I hate when that happens Turtle. Hearing that distinct crunch sucks. Good news is that a couple of missing teeth wont kill ya.
> 
> - chrisstef


its almost as bad as the sound of cast iron hitting concrete!


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## TheTurtleCarpenter

Im not sure what the culprit was, Ive narrowed it down to ; pitted blade, squeezing the set too hard, the depth of the hack saw kerf I cut for tooth spacing too deep, or too much coffee and Prozack.

I went back over it and took some set back out using a hammer face in the vise and lightly tapping the teeth and did a test cut and it cut and tracked Great with hardly any tearout at the back.


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## DLK

> Ugh, I hate when that happens Turtle. Hearing that distinct crunch sucks. Good news is that a couple of missing teeth wont kill ya.
> 
> - chrisstef


I think it will match Turtle's smile. :-]

Question: In picture two there is wood covering the end of the saw. What is its purpose?


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## TheTurtleCarpenter

Don K. I used that to line my hacksaw blade up with the steel rule for 1/8" increment kerfs for 8tpi. I started without it and a few got off mark. The kerfs were made to guide my strokes with the file. I learned quite alot from this first try. Looking back i would make a filed pin to go thru the wood fence to set my increments. I think (when) I file the teeth back off to do a second attempt i will go with 10 or 12 tpi, as this blade is thin.


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## summerfi

Don't be too hard on yourself Turtle. Sometimes it just happens. It's a sick feeling when it does. What saw set were you using?

Edit: See this link for tooth spacing templates.


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## TheTurtleCarpenter

I used a Somax gold Bob. I have a stanly 42 that ill use next and ill take some scrap plate and do a few test. My kerf spacings were inconsitant enough that I had to apply pressure differently for each tooth and there wasnt any rhythm.


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## summerfi

I've heard, buy can't confirm from personal experience, that the Somax bends the teeth at a different angle than the Stanley 42x and is more prone to breaking teeth.


----------



## DLK

Turtle. Clever!


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## Brit

Turtle - At least you had a go my friend and it looks like you were doing fine apart from the fractured teeth. I would say the most likely culprit is the amount of pitting on that plate. I can imagine that must be soul destroying. Funnily enough, I've never had a tooth break on me yet even though I've filed and re-toothed quite a few saws. I have both of the Somax saw sets, but I've never used either of them since I also have two original Eclipse 77s that they were modeled on. I have a 42x too and I've not used that either. I must experiment more. Keep at it and don't let that little set back deter you.


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## terryR

Nice work, TTC. Seriously. Every man should be able to sharpen his own tools!

Luckily, the broken teeth are on a pitted plate, not a BobSaw!

AND, you are miles ahead of my abilities! Keep trying, bud! I need someone to send my dull saws to when Bob is too busy. LOL!


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## TheTurtleCarpenter

Thanks for the Positive responses guys, That little saw was in pretty bad shape except for the handle. I gave it a soak in the Citric solution and left it too long so i felt Pity on it when I saw my results. Lessons learned and ill approach it differently next time. I think the next go will be in the back yard in some fashion so the lighting wont be a problem and i can set up the plate at a good height. Terry, I am just one saw ahead of you.!


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## bearkatwood

Just got done with two new backsaws that I made for an upcoming video. I am very happy with how they turned out. They are a carcass and dovetail with scalloped brass backs and walnut handles.























































Be sure to subscribe to my youtube channel to see when the video comes out…





View on YouTube


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## TheTurtleCarpenter

Awesome ! Glad you used walnut as opposed to that wood that goes Poof…. Wheredid you find grain like that.?


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## MNclone

Those saws look amazing.


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## BigRedKnothead

Bearkat,....dat just ain't right. Ain't right.


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## jmartel

Damn those walnut handles are stunning. Especially the little one. Claro walnut?


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## onoitsmatt

Nice looking saws, Brian. I like the decorative toes to tie in with the scalloped backs.


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## summerfi

Beautiful work Brian. Love that figured walnut.


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## Brit

Looks like you made a nice job of those Brian. A bit fancy for my taste as I prefer a more traditional look, but I can appreciate the amount of work and skill that went into them.


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## bearkatwood

Brit, that is actually something I said in the video, that these might not be everyone's cup of tea. That is the fun thing about designing your own and making it, you can make it look however you want. The carcass saw tote was just a regular piece of walnut I had, but my dovetail tote was from a piece of figured walnut I found in the stack at my suppliers. I don't think it is claro, it just had a crotch section that was amazing. I will try to go pop off a picture of the board in a bit. I would love to send Bob a chunk and have him make me one of those awesome halfbacks. 
Speaking of which I designed a funny shirt I was thinking of offering on my site store, but I wasn't sure it would get much play. let me know what you think. And thanks all for the great comments.









I was trying to make it look like a sports team shirt.


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## bearkatwood

O.K. here it is, I ran out to the shop to get some pictures of the chunk I used. I think there is enough for four, maybe five totes.




































The far end has some nice curl too , but not quite as pretty as the crotch. I thought it might make nice drawer fronts, but for what I don't know.
So what do you say Bob, maybe a trade. I need one more tote out of it and the half back tote, but you could have the rest….plus??? I don't know, your halfbacks look like a great saw.
later.


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## bearkatwood

Oh, yeah. And please get me subscribers to my youtube channel. I only get on here and youtube so I don't hit the social media enough to bring in people, so I need your help. 
Have a great day!!




View on YouTube


----------



## summerfi

Brian, I'm always up for trades. Either towards a halfback, or I just cut some nice maple crotch figure on my sawmill, but it has to dry first. Also would be interested in some figured myrtle from your part of the country. You may have noticed my earlier post that I'm taking a break from making saws until next fall. Too much else I have to get done. BTW, I like the shirt!


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## donwilwol

I don't have much for a before pictures, but this is a German made saw based on the medallion ring.





































Anybody have any idea's on a maker or age?


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## bearkatwood

I would be happy to hook you up with some myrtle, I have tons of it.
Whenever you think you might make saws again, let me know. I will send you off some goodies for trade. I will hold on to that piece until then for you.
Don, nice job. That looks like a good cutter.


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## summerfi

Don, does the medallion ring have writing on it? Pastahill is the resident expert on German saws. You could send him a PM. As for age, it looks 1950s vintage to me.


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## donwilwol

Bob, the medallion just says Made in Germany.


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## summerfi

That would seem to indicate it was made before Germany was split into east and west then.


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## pastahill

Yes it looks pre WWII, but not older than 1920. But who was the maker i have no idea. There were so many small saw makes in Germany and the most of them dont stamp there normal saws, just the high price ones had medallions or stamps. Older ones had also no screws here in germay, they used brass or steel rivets.


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## jmartel

Bearkat, where do you source your figured walnut from? Anywhere close to I-5? I'll be going down through Oregon at the end of the month.


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## bearkatwood

Hey Jmartel. I go to crosscuts/ Emerson hardwoods in Eugene
http://www.crosscuteugene.com/

Hey all, I just put out my video on how I made my back saws. They are nothing like what Bob puts out, but they are fun and I had fun making the video. Hope you enjoy!





View on YouTube


----------



## jmartel

Interesting. I go to Crosscut here in Seattle, but I haven't seen them carry any figured walnut like that. Might get lucky if you dig in the stash, but generally they don't have anything other than normal looking walnut.

I'm thinking about stopping by Northwest Timber in Jefferson. Pricey, but it might be worth stopping by.


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## DylanC

Bearkat: great video…you've got one more subscriber.

All: My recent acquisition of a Foley retoother has me planning to build a matched pair of dovetail and/or carcass saws, one for me and one for a friend. I have two questions: First, I am leaning towards folded brass backs. The only source I've found is TGIAG. Are these good backs?

And second is handle style. I really like the clean & simple lines of the Veritas saws, but the hang is a bit higher than traditional saws, at least from the patterns I've seen at Blackburn and TGIAG. Is the Veritas hang comfortable, or can it be improved upon?


----------



## onoitsmatt

I have a couple of questions about restoring saw handles.
1. What do you use to strip dirt and oils down to the original finish, or do you always strip to bare wood?
2. What do you use to strip down to bare wood?
3. What finish do you use when refinishing after stripping to bare wood?

Thanks!


----------



## Brit

Matt - There are many ways to finish saw handles. The following link explains what I generally do.

http://lumberjocks.com/replies/1273946


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## Brit

BTW - To strip dirt and wax I use Liberon wax and polish remover applied with 0000 steel wool.


----------



## DLK

Matt - I have used Bob's trick of using oven cleaner to remove (machine) oil from saw handles. You spray the wood with oven cleaner wait 5 minutes and wipe it off. May have to repeat a couple of times, but often once is enough.


----------



## bearkatwood

Dylan, Two Guys in a Garage do amazing work. They are very picky and there stuff doesn't leave the shop unless they are very happy with it. I would highly recommend them for the folded back. Make sure and tell them I sent you. On the handle, there is always room for improvement. I made about ten test pieces before I had one that felt like butter in my hand. mill up some 2×4 and try some different shapes and be sure to measure your palm good to know how far apart to drill the holes.
I am going out to buy some oven cleaner this morning Thanks Bob, great tip. I also just read that Schwarz said to use "The Works" toilette bowl cleaner for rust, zinc and black oxide. I will have to get some of that too.
Have a great weekend.


----------



## CL810

Dylan, several years ago I had a Veritas DT saw and did not like the higher hang. Sold it and went with Bad Axe saws. Very noticeable improvement. YMMV.


----------



## summerfi

Lots to catch up on here.

Dylan - I've used 6 or 8 TGIAG brass backs. On the first one I had difficulty getting the blade in the back because it was folded so tightly. Not sure if that was the back or my technique. I had no problem on the others. They are good backs at a reasonable price. Service can be slow sometimes. Recognize they come in rough form. They are just a piece of brass that has been folded. You have to do all the shaping, sanding and polishing. Knowing that, I wouldn't hesitate to buy from them. Alamo Tool Works also sells folded backs, but I've not used theirs.

On high hang angle saws, they look cool, but they can be hard to start and awkward to use because your hand pressure is more downward than in the direction of the saw cut.

Brian - Nice video. It's great to see how other folks do it. Interesting how we all do things a bit differently, yet arrive at the same place in the end.

Matt - Seldom do I see an old saw that the original finish is worth saving. Usually it is 90% or more gone. If it has remnants of varnish remaining, I scrape that off with a knife. As DonK said, I use over cleaner to clean the gunk off most saw handles. If it's a pretty clean handle, I'll sometimes use Simple Green and/or Barkeeper's Friend. After cleaning, if the handle has black stains from the steel, I'll use oxalyc acid (deck cleaner basically) to lighten that up. Then I make any needed repairs and then sand. I typically start sanding with 220 and finish with 320. If it's a special saw I may go finer. I may use stains or dyes if the color isn't even. Then I finish with satin poly. I think the wipe-on makes the best finish, but I've been going more and more to spray on for the convenience. If the color is still uneven after applying a coat of poly, I'll sometimes apply more stain between coats. At that point it's acting more as a glaze than a stain, but it does help get the color you want. One last note that is sacrilege to a lot of folk. I never put BLO on a saw handle. IMO, it eventually turns the wood dark and it is a magnet for dirt unless top-coated with something else.


----------



## summerfi

Here are three saws I've recently completed on commission. The first two are 14" table saws with walnut handles. One went to NJ and the other to FL. The third is a 10" dovetail saw with pecan handle that went to CO. These are my last saw builds until fall.


----------



## bearkatwood

Wow Bob, those are beautiful.
I probably do it differently because I had to teach myself how. 
I really like the carving detail on that dovetail handle.
The first two have nice detail on the nose, great stuff Bob, thanks!


----------



## putty

Another fine batch of saws from the master!!! good job Bob

Brian, Beautiful saws too…and nice Video!!!


----------



## onoitsmatt

Thanks for the tips Andy and Bob! Of course my first handle I've already hit with a coat of BLO. Should I use an oil based poly as a top coat on it?

Another batch of fine looking saws there, Bob!


----------



## summerfi

That would be my recommendation, Matt. After it's dry of course.


----------



## bearkatwood

Funny. Yes, let it dry first. 
Bob, I'm not very familiar with that kind of table saw. What applications it most for?
might that top one be for sale?  very beautiful work sir.


----------



## bearkatwood

I was thinking about making a replica of the moxon saw.








I know Kevin at North Wind made the one in Schwarz's book, but I haven't heard from him in a while, so I thought I would take a whack at it.


----------



## summerfi

Brian, the story goes that the narrow blade of the table saw allowed British furniture makers to saw out the round shape of a table top. I don't know if that's true or not. They are also called a grafting saw. Not for grafting tree scions, but rather for grafting one piece of wood to another to make a joint. There was a long discussion on this thread at one point, thanks mainly to Andy, about the term graft. To me, though, they are just a small utility saw to keep handy on the bench for small quick cuts.

Sorry, all three saws are sold and gone. That first one has an exceptional piece of walnut though.


----------



## bearkatwood

Like a scarf joint I wonder?
yup, someone got a beauty!
If you ever get back to it, I sure wouldn't mind one of those half backs.

another fun shirt design


----------



## Brit

Gorgeous work Bob as always.


----------



## bearkatwood

I am sure you can all see why I would want one of these.










Bob, your work is amazing! I can't wait to see what you do next.


----------



## woodcox

My third and first equitable panel saw. Lol. 


















I'm trying to shape the handle to fit my hand, which is good work by the way. It is quite large in my mitts yet. Also there is enough meat there play too, there is an ornamental shape to work out. Slow going, working from pictures and blending mistakes. This beech is nice to work so far with a new Iwasaki file set.

Edit; please revert your attention back to Bob and Brian's fine work.


----------



## summerfi

Brian, if you keep extolling my saws I'm going to have to raise the prices. ;-)
Seriously, thanks for the nice words.


----------



## bearkatwood

Bob, I plan on purchasing one, so I will shut up and keep the prices down 
Seriously awesome stuff.


----------



## DLK

Bob. I had that Spear and Jackson Dovetail saw you sold me finally sharpened. Works good.


----------



## summerfi

Good to hear Don!


----------



## BigRedKnothead

> Bob, I plan on purchasing one, so I will shut up and keep the prices down
> Seriously awesome stuff.
> 
> - bearkatwood


Ya, learned my lesson. I started braggin up his saws….now they're on backorder. I'll have to wait YEARS to complete my set. LOL


----------



## bearkatwood

Ha! Man why didn't you tell me to keep my trap shut?  I want one of his saws, but now I might as well ask for George Clooney's signature on it to boot. 
Hey Bob, you rub shoulders with Clooney don't you?


----------



## summerfi

Best friends.


----------



## CL810

Friends???? I always thought Bob *was* George Clooney.


----------



## duckmilk

Friends? Holly crap. Maybe you should start selling some George Clooney signature saws.

OK Woodcox, but nice saw nonetheless.

Going to be watching your vid Brian, you do nice videos.


----------



## woodcox

Is there a sharpening thread? I don't think I have seen one around here? I don't think that saw has dropped more than a couple boards in it's life. Any who, I want to start sharpening my saws, which include a couple Veritas back saws in rip and x cut. I would like to pick up a decent set of files for x cut into 16 or so tpi. I am looking at rip panel saws soon as well. Any recommends would be cool.


----------



## bearkatwood

Bob!!! I knew it. You Missoulians hang with the big dogs 
Thanks, I will treasure it always, but wait… wasn't it supposed to be ON the saw?

As for the sharpening thread, This is as good as spot as any. Or you could start a new thread and people would jump on board. My recomendations I made in my video, Blackburn and Matt Cianci for references.





View on YouTube

So lets have it gang.. advise on sharpening, oh and I hope that George won't mind doing that again for you Bob….On the saw this time


----------



## DylanC

+1 for Brit's saw sharpening video.


----------



## summerfi

^ +10 on Andy's video. It's killer.

For filing 14 - 16 ppi (or finer), here's what you want: GROBET-VALLORBE SWISS NEEDLE FILE 3-SQUARE-18cm-7-1/4" Long Cut 2. I bought mine on ebay. I don't see any there right now though. You'll be frustrated with all the rest until you get one of these.

Brian, hey buddy, I can get you George's sig any time and on anything you want. $$$ though. ;-)


----------



## bearkatwood

How greedy 
Let me start a new piggy bank.
Thanks for the sharpening tips.


----------



## bandit571

What can anybody tell me about this bad boy…









Has "Wentworth's No.1 " and something about a patent…..
Spent $10 on it today..

Also picked a $6 Disston D-23(??) 5 ppi saw









Has a straight back. Need to clean it up a bit….


----------



## summerfi

Bandit, I don't know a lot about metal saw vises, but I believe the Wentworth has a reputation for being one of the better, if not the best. You got a good deal. I see them go 4 or 5 times that amount on ebay pretty regular.


----------



## bandit571

Thank you, Bob! I guess I'd better find a plank to bolt on to it? Just enough to clamp up in the bench's vise. Then maybe a little work on the saw's big teeth.


----------



## onoitsmatt

So I found a guy locally who sharpens saws. He's got an Acme hand saw filer. I took 4 saws to him to get sharpened. I wanted 2 of them to be sharpened cross and 2 to be rip. He said they were all 4 intended to be filed cross cut (which I don't believe to be the case). One was a gents saw, there was a 12" back saw and a 14" back saw (both 11ppi) and a 26" Disston D-8 (8ppi). I deferred to him on how to sharpen them as I'm new enough to hand tool work that I doubt I'd notice too much difference. I'm just happy to have some sharp saws for a change. But I started thinking about it and decided I really wanted the 14" back saw filed rip just to have one of each. So I called him to see if it was too late to get that one done as rip. He said he'd already filed them and wanted to know why I'd want that one filed rip. I told him I thought it'd cut faster doing something like a tenon cheek with the grain. He said the only thing that would make it cut faster was more teeth per inch. Which seems reasonable. But I thought the rip filed saws would carry away more waste and therefore (in theory) saw faster.

So what would be the benefit of filing cross vs. rip? Does rip filed cut faster with the same strokes? Why do we need cross and rip and hybrid and various sizes, etc. Or am I just opening a big can of worms here?


----------



## bandit571

The Wentworth No. 1 now has a plank attached..









Patent date is APR 9 78
Has a nice locking lever









#10 screws to hold things together..









Big #3 phillips screwdriver, after a #8 tip in the push drill made the pilot holes….


----------



## summerfi

Matt, the utility of rip vs. crosscut has to do with the way wood fibers are organized. Imagine wood as a bundle of soda straws. Crosscutting, i.e. cutting perpendicular to the grain, must sever the straws. The teeth are formed like knives in order to do this effectively. Ripping, i.e. cutting in the direction of the grain, must nibble away at the end of the straws. Teeth formed like knives would tend to separate the straws rather than nibble them away. However, teeth formed like chisels (or more accurately like little scrapers since they usually have negative rake) are ideal for nibbling the end of the straws away. Have a look at this video:


----------



## JayT

> He said the only thing that would make it cut faster was more teeth per inch.
> 
> - onoitsmatt


Um, Bob can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I thing generally fewer teeth per inch will cut faster. The teeth are larger and can take a bigger bite, but will leave a rougher edge. More TPI is going to be slower and leave a smoother surface.


----------



## JayT

> He said the only thing that would make it cut faster was more teeth per inch.
> 
> - onoitsmatt


Um, Bob can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but generally fewer teeth per inch will cut faster. The teeth are larger and can take a bigger bite, but will leave a rougher edge. More TPI is going to be slower, but will leave a smoother surface.


----------



## donwilwol

I Agree with JayT. Fewer teeth per inch is going to cut faster. More teeth per inch will leave a better surface but cut slower.


----------



## donwilwol

Dup post


----------



## summerfi

Correct Jay, more teeth means slower cutting, everything else being equal. The ppi should be tailored to the thickness of the stock being cut. You want 4-5 teeth in the board at any one time.


----------



## woodcox

Thank you for all of that info fellas.

Andy, your videos are much appreciated. Thank you for sharing your time like that.


----------



## onoitsmatt

Sorry JayT, You are right. He said fewer teeth, not more. Pardon my general bafoonery.

Thanks for the video, Bob.

He did mention something about the saw following the grain. I didn't really follow where he was going at the time, but it sounds like maybe using a cross cut saw along grain would tend to follow the grain whereas the rip saw would be more inclined to make its own path, thus cutting straighter along the grain rather than following the grain line?

I guess I already understood the difference in how they are filed and what that means to the way it cuts (the sort of chisel vs. sort of knife). Just unsure of what the downside is of having a cross cut. In other words, it seems a cross cut saw should be able to cut rip or cross, but the rip saw would tear-out when used across the grain, so is only good for ripping.

Is it a bad idea to use a cross-cut saw for ripping? Should I tell him to go ahead and resharpen one of the back saws to rip?

I was planning to drop off a couple of more when I go pick these up. They are nearly identical panel saws. I thought I'd do one as rip and one as cross just to have an A/B to see what the difference is.

Thanks again!


----------



## woodcox

I saw this bandit. Turn of the century?










Rubber jaws?


----------



## bandit571

Lower left hand corner be the one. Doesn't seem to have any rubber on the jaws, right now. 1/4" rubber air hose can fill in nicely, IF wanted.

I did try it out for a bit….NICE!!!. No chatter at all. Have to remember to keep the saw's handle on the side without the lever, interferes with the lever whenyou lock it down.

asking price was $25…....offer was $10 + Sales tax…...dealer said "SOLD!" Works for me….


----------



## DylanC

Anybody ever seen one of these before? Bidding starts at $120. (Link)


----------



## Johnny7

Never come across one of those before, but the patent application is very interesting.

The bizarre handle shape is yet another effort to re-think the two-handed sawing dilemma (think Disston thumbhole).

BUT, what's really interesting is that the saw has been designed so that after the blade has been narrowed by sharpening (approximately the amount that would be filed away in the course of "four years of use by a carpenter active in the trade") the section shown in the OPs post delineated by two black diagonal lines could be removed, two pins would be discarded, and the lower part of the handle could be moved up (any away from the toothline)!

It's HERE if you'd like to read it for yourself.


----------



## kevinpiat

I'm thinking I will make a 18" next.


----------



## Brit

> Thank you for all of that info fellas.
> 
> Andy, your videos are much appreciated. Thank you for sharing your time like that.
> 
> - woodcox


My pleasure. It is nice to see that others have posted videos on saw sharpening now, so people have a variety to chose from which should help keep this skill alive for another generation at least.


----------



## Brit

Bandit - The Wentworth No. 2 was the inspiration for the gramercy saw vise.


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

That saw should go pretty high. I wonder how many were actually made and sold.


----------



## Jhwill

I picked up this saw at a flea market for my other grandson and after looking closer it seems to be a good saw. Its the size of a panel saw or maybe a child's saw. It's has brass screws but no medallion if any one has any information it would be appreciated. Cleaning, sharpening and a minor repair a the top horn is all it needs.


----------



## bandit571

Over the Magnolia Jamboree Weekend, one of the items I picked while out on the road was what I thought a Disston D-23 rip saw @ 5ppi…....been cleaning it up a might, turns out it is a Disston alright,,,,,but it is a Keystone Challenger 5-1/2 ppi. According to the etch I found under all the crud..









Also managed to remove that LARGE diameter copper wire. Medallion is a Disston one.. You think $6 is too much for it???


----------



## bandit571

Ok, that saw is a Disston, but it is also a Keystone. A Challenger 5-1/2 ppi









Scraped away around the full etch. Cleaned everything on the saw, and put things back together..









There is also a 5 stamped up near the top of the plate, but is hidden under the handle.

Still need to work on the teeth a bit. Now that I have a proper saw vise…..


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

Harvey Peace stock is down a few points today fellas.!


----------



## summerfi

Remember the lot of British backsaws I bought about a year and a half ago? Well, I've done it again. This time there are only 12. Three are 12" saws and 9 are 14". Six are brass back and six are steel. These will go in the queue for restoration next winter, and then most of them will be for sale.










Here's a closer look with names. First pic, top to bottom, are Spear & Jackson and then two C. Garlicks.










Here are two Spear & Jackson and an Atkin & Sons.










Moses Eadon, Tyzack, and a no name.










J.G. Graves, W. Dawes, Wingfield Rowbotham


----------



## putty

Nice batch of saws Bob, you will make them look great. I cant wait to see the before and after's!


----------



## chrisstef

Mmmmm Moses Eadon ….. nice haul Bob.


----------



## onoitsmatt

I'll be sending the link to your website to my wife right before Christmas, Bob.


----------



## ToddJB

There are some lookers in that lot, Bob. I'm eager to see what you do with 'em.


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

That Moses Eadon caught my eye first. A couple weather downed trees to cut up and you will be three years out taking any more work on.


----------



## MrRon

Wondering if any saw collector might be interested in Foley saw sharpening machines that would eliminate the chore of hand filing, setting and re-toothing.


----------



## terryR

Bob, how ironic…

I've been close to emailing you the past 10 days to see if you had any interest in another purchase like this! LOL! I'm looking for brass backers which need a new handle, and was interested in a mid-sized investment to find them. Too bad all your new acquisitions have a handle.

If you'd like to re-coup a lil cash now, my habit is always ready…


----------



## summerfi

I thought you might be interested in the Atkin & Sons, Terry. I can't remember what size your other Atkin is. I like putting saws of the same maker together.


----------



## bandit571

Ok, couple of odd ball saws..









Well, the files were five for a dollar, the saws were $2 each

One is a Millers Falls No. 43

One is a Disston/HK Porter 10B

I already had a No.10…...not sure why they added the "B" to it. Both merely needed a blade installed.

Just a $5 day….


----------



## summerfi

I'm slowly working my way through my backlog of saw restores as I have time. The first one below is a Disston No. 12 panel that went to a buyer in Louisiana. Second one is a Disston No. 7 rip. Third one is a Disston No. 4 14" crosscut backsaw. The 2nd and 3rd are for sale on my web page.


----------



## putty

I like that blued disston Bob…


----------



## WillliamMSP

Nice (and tempting!) work, as usual, Bob.


----------



## SuppressiveFire

Bob I emailed you on the Disston no 4 backsaw.


----------



## Brit

Nice backsaw haul Bob. They should keep you out of mischief for a while. Lovely restorations too on the last three you posted.


----------



## theoldfart

Just found this today









Short panel saw 8ppi and split nut. J A Youngs Hardware, Hartford, CT


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

Show a pic of the handle and medallion Kev. Ill give you $8 for it without looking.!


----------



## theoldfart

Turtle, no medalion


----------



## summerfi

Here's my latest saw "restoration". I put restoration in quotes because I took a very different approach with this saw than I do with most. This is an old saw, so I didn't want to make it look shiny new. It is a true antique, and I wanted to maintain the antique look while returning it to a fully functional state. I have a couple more saws this old or older, so I'd be interested in hearing what people think of this approach to restoration.










The saw was made by Thomas Ibbotson & Co. in Sheffield. According to my British saw book, the company originated in 1833.










One of the coolest features of this saw is that someone inscribed the date on the handle. I usually don't like it when a name or initials are put on a saw, but in this case I'm glad they did because it helps to authenticate the age of the saw. The question remains, how old was the saw when they put the date on it?










All I did to clean the plate was scrub it with Simple Green and fine steel wool. The plate has oxidized to a nice blue color. I usually use a poly finish on saw handles, but in this case I deviated from my normal practice. After cleaning the grease and grime off the handle, I sanded it very lightly with 320 grit just enough to remove the raised grain. I then applied one coat of tung oil followed by three coats of paste wax. The handle still has all the dings and chips it has collected over the years, including a broken upper horn and scorch marks where someone got it too close to the stove. These add character to the saw and are a part of it's history.










It's kind of fun to have a 175 year old saw that looks it's age but still cuts as well as the day it was made. Someone who appreciates old tools and wants to do their woodworking with real antiques should be the next owner of this saw.


----------



## ToddJB

I'm always torn, Bob. I love both looks. I like the look of the way it was made, and the look of the way it has lasted.


----------



## bandit571

Fellow said; "You're gonna need a bigger….saw" 









Ya think???


----------



## Brit

That's a very respectful restoration Bob and it suits that saw well.

Bandit can't you relieve them of some of that wood?


----------



## bandit571

Nope, they have a contract to haul it all away…...they buy for the mulch it will make.


----------



## donwilwol

Perfect Bob!!


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

Bob, I think you gave it due respect. It can always be brightened up by someone after it leaves your hands.

I couldnt pass up on this one the other day, its not in the best shape but the Medallion was talking to me. Im still in the middle of a remodel here at home but I think I can sneak a few hours on a restore here and there and get some after photos next week.


----------



## summerfi

Nice saw Turtle. I don't have that medallion in the reference guide, so when you get time please take a sharp closeup of it and I'll add it to the list.


----------



## houblon

Bob,

great restoration of that Ibbotson. I recently found an old British saw by Davenport and was wondering how to go on with the restoration. Did you remove the handle? I do not want to mess with the split nuts. Could the Simple Green be replaced by soap and water?


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

The saw wont be here untill Friday Bob and ill get a better shot and send post it. Here is a little closer shot of the medallion. I will wait on any work on it till I get some more info and dating. Maybe you or Andy can lead me on that.


----------



## summerfi

> Bob,
> great restoration of that Ibbotson. I recently found an old British saw by Davenport and was wondering how to go on with the restoration. Did you remove the handle? I do not want to mess with the split nuts. Could the Simple Green be replaced by soap and water?
> - houblon


Houblon - Yes, I removed the handle. I've taken many handles with split nuts off and had very little trouble. Your Davenport looks like an old saw. I'm guessing there would be rust under the handle, which is a reason to take it off. That would make repairing the crack easier as well. Soap and water or any household cleanser should work as well as Simple Green. Good luck, and be sure to post the results when you're done.


----------



## summerfi

Turtle - I can wait for a better picture, no problem. Here's a little info on your I&H Sorby from my saw book.

"The name Sorby is one of Sheffield's most famous: the first Master Cutler was Robert Sorsby, consistency in spelling not being as important in 1624. John Sorby is first listed in 1797 as a sheer maker, using the golden fleece mark, which looks like a hanging sheep; he was Master Cutler in 1807. After his death in 1829 his two sons, John and Henry (hence I&H Sorby) [Note: I was used in place of a J in those days] took over. Their sister married William Lockwood; he and John Sorby senior were listed as factors together in Arundel Street in 1817. In 1821 Sorby & Sons had moved to Spital Hill, and were listed as merchants, factors, edge tool, brace, bit, saw, spade, and shovel manufacturers; 1841: merchants, and edge tool, joiners' tool, sheep shear, garden tool, saw, file, spade, and shovel manufacturers."

Then under Lockwood Brothers is the following: "Their chief products were files and cutlery; their claim in the directories to be saw makers was intermittent, and no saws with their name have so far been recorded, perhaps because they were always marked I.&H. Sorby. It is quite likely that at some point their saws were factored."


----------



## Brit

I've never seen that mark on any I&H Sorby tools Turtle. Here is a link to the a history of the Sorby lineage.


----------



## terryR

Bob, the Thomas Ibbotson looks fantastic!
A very classy restore!


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

Here is a closeup of the Sorby Bob.










I cant make out what the object in the center is. I know that they started out being known for their sheep shears and one of their brands was a hanging sheep. The saw is in better shape than the pictures had showed. I think it will be a wall hanger.


----------



## summerfi

Thanks Turtle, I will add it to the medallion guide. Have a pic of the whole saw?


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter




----------



## ToddJB

Cool saw, Turtle!


----------



## summerfi

Very nice!


----------



## bandit571

Picked this leather sheath up today ( $0.25) and added a small saw to it…









There is a small leather strap near the handle end, with a metal belt clip on a ring

Pruner's saw?


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

Thanks, Ive been backing off buying anything lately and when I checked back in on it time was running out with no bids @ $39. Its hard to buy with just looking at pics but this one looks better in person and most the time the opposite is true. I am still tring to narrow down a date on this one.


----------



## Brit

> I cant make out what the object in the center is. I know that they started out being known for their sheep shears and one of their brands was a hanging sheep.
> 
> - TheTurtleCarpenter


Tutle - I've never seen that mark on any I&H Sorby tools, let alone on a saw. As to what it is, it looks to me like a representation of a sheepskin.


----------



## JKMDETAIL

Turtle, One nice looking saw. Hard to believe a tool that old can survive and still look that good.


----------



## Johnny7

*Brit*

That is indeed intended to represent a sheepskin, but more specifically the Golden Fleece of mythology


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

It sure does Andy. My first thought was the hanging sheep and the detail might be worn down, but the initials that lay on it delete that thought. Maybe you or Bob could post the pic over at Backsaw.net and generate some clue to the date. ? Simon Barley's book could be of help but I dont own one. Still looking.

Nice to hear from you JK, I think Next Saturday is in order for some breakfast.!


----------



## bandit571

Been putting this Craftsman saw to some good use..









At least according to the etch…..it is a Craftsman crosscut saw, 26" long.

Has something about it being a "Special Saw"??


----------



## duckmilk

> *Brit*
> 
> That is indeed intended to represent a sheepskin, but more specifically the Golden Fleece of mythology
> 
> - Johnny7


I would tend to agree. Regardless, that is a nice pickup Turtle, congratulations!

Edit: that should go in a LJ's calendar, as well as Bob's restore.


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

Thanks, Duck.!


----------



## JKMDETAIL

Turtle breakfast is a possible.


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

Golden fleece,,, that was worth a google image.



















JK, just message me if you can make it.


----------



## ColonelTravis

Maybe this has been discussed around here and I missed it. But has anyone tried the Bahco files from Lee Valley? Don't know when they started selling them, it's news to me.


----------



## Brit

*Colonel* - LV used to sell the Swiss Grobet files until a friend of mine from Oz pointed out to them that they were actually made in India. They didn't believe him at first, but found he was right once they checked for themselves. They have since switched to Bahco files which are made in Portugal. I use the Bahco files and I think they are the best out there at present, but that isn't to say every file is perfect. I've had a couple where the edges just crumbled away after a couple of strokes. I phoned my supplier and on both occasions they sent out replacements which were fine. Also, sometime the edges are not radiused very well and the gullet doesn't get shaped as you'd expect. Even with these problems, IMO they are still the best saw files currently available.


----------



## ColonelTravis

Thanks Andy, I remember the LV Grobets and people here and elsewhere not satisfied with them, I stayed away from them. Hadn't looked for files on their site for several months until yesterday and I noticed the change.

I'll definitely check these out.


----------



## houblon

I'm trying to rehab this Disston backsaw. Turns ou the spine is curved, but not sideways.
The blade is quite straight at the toe, but bends a bit sideways at the handle.

I have read that seating the blade might straighten it. But with the spine bent in the plane of the blade inserting it more at the tote will pull it out at the toe…Bending the spine will open another can of worms.

What would you do to turn this into a user?


----------



## Johnny7

First off, I don't see why the spine can't be straightened.

But if it can't, or you simply don't want to, there are more than a few suppliers out there, for new spines.
You could even upgrade to brass. Here's ONE supplier of saw backs


----------



## summerfi

Houblon, I've straightened a number of backs like yours. I use three little wooden blocks in my vise to act as pressure points. It takes a little trial and error, but it can be done.


----------



## houblon

I thought the sides will open up if I bend it. There is no more than an 1/8 in to the screw hole anyway.
So I remove the back, bend it and reset the blade?


----------



## Brit

Don't fear it houblon, just do it. You can't do any damage that can't be fixed.


----------



## summerfi

> So I remove the back, bend it and reset the blade?
> - houblon


Yes, exactly.


----------



## DylanC

Yesterday I inherited this Millers Falls miter box and saw from my father in law. 



























It's a 74C with a 25" Warranted Superior saw. I'm guessing it's a 1950s or 60s vintage, and the saw medallion shows some similarities to the HK Porter Disstons that I've seen. It appears to be complete with all accessories present and in working order. The saw moves smoothly through the guides and the angle adjusts easily.

I've seen similar setups on eBay sell for anywhere from $40 to $200. What makes some of these so valuable and others not?


----------



## theoldfart

Actually got to something in the rest q. A Disston 7, I think. Etch was faint.


----------



## TheFridge

Turtle, don't bring that saw around me. I would bed it and have a pack of tiny gent saws running around before you knew it.


----------



## bandit571

Was using that Wentworth saw vise to sharpen the Challenger 6-1/2…....one side of the vise would be nice and tight…the left side was just a tad loose. Saw plate would rattle a bit as I filed. Short of adding a couple lengths of air hose on the jaws, any way to tighten the "grip" the vise has?









This is the vise, have since added a plank, so I can clamp it in the bench's end vise. The saw?









This be a K-6-1/2 Challenger, from Disston's Keystone line up. 26" long, straight back, 5-1/2ppi Rip saw.

Teeth did need a little tune up. Took awhile, but it is now sharp and in the overhead til. May have some work for it to do later.

Need to tighten up the left hand side of the old Wentworth No. 1, though. Right now, just plain iron jaws. 









I do have some old rubber air hose…....3/8" id stuff. Maybe one side of the jaws? Or both? This vise doesn't open up very far, though…


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

> Turtle, don t bring that saw around me. I would bed it and have a pack of tiny gent saws running around before you knew it.
> 
> - TheFridge


 Fridge,,, When she comes in season you can be first in the Pen.!


----------



## TheFridge

Chain the door until then  that medallion reminds me of an old worn gold coin.


----------



## warrenkicker

Depending on where the jaws start to get loose you may be able to bend them back so that they get tight evenly. Use a straight edge along each jaw to see where they may not be straight. If they are straight that means they aren't parallel and correcting that may involve twisting the entire mechanism or there is some slop in the hinge pins. If they aren't straight then you could place something solid between the jaws at the last point where they are parallel as well as at the end that is parallel and then squeeze the loose end of the jaws together slightly until they are fully parallel. Cast will bend some.

You may even be able to file the gap even but you risk losing the ability to clamp the blade if you remove too much material.


----------



## DLK

Who did the horn repair to a saw handle using a dove tail? Is there a link to how it was done?


----------



## ToddJB

DonW has done that a few times on his hand planes. He does it using a mill.


----------



## putty

Might also check with Summerfi… he is the wizard of saw handles


----------



## DylanC

Another Foley set near Minneapolis for $100.

http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/csw/tls/5580076487.html


----------



## DLK

> DonW has done that a few times on his hand planes. He does it using a mill.
> 
> - ToddJB


With a mill eh?. I think I will turn a tenon.


----------



## DLK

> Another Foley set near Minneapolis for $100.
> 
> http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/csw/tls/5580076487.html
> 
> - DylanC


If its still there next week I might buy it.


----------



## DLK

.


----------



## summerfi

That's a great deal on the Foley equipment.


----------



## DLK

.


> That s a great deal on the Foley equipment.
> 
> - summerfi


Its very tempting. Next week I'll be near Minneapolis and with in a 45 minute drive away from it. But it means taking 2 hours out of my visit to go get it and oddly I don't know if I can work that out. Will it fit into the trunk of a sedan (Likely a Ford Hybrid Fusion or Taurus) ?


----------



## DylanC

Mine all fit in a fusion trunk. The worst is the filer…big, heavy, and awkward.


----------



## DanKrager

Go for it Combo….so I won't be tempted. I have no need, no space, and no business even thinking about it, but I had a set once…fond memories.

Take the motors off if too heavy. They come off easily.

DanK


----------



## DLK

Is anyone closer to it that could collect it for me before it is gone.
Then I could get it from them. I will be in Shakopee May 17-21.
Lester Prairie is another 45 miles or so from there and I would have to duck out from a meeting or evening to collect it.

(I have a university car for the trip so as to not drive my truck. Hence the question about fitting in the trunk.)


----------



## nebulousThought

cool


----------



## Mosquito

I actually already tried contacting that guy yesterday before it was posted here, so we'll see if I hear anything back or if it's still available. It's about an hour out, and I even live on the correct side of the cities.

EDIT: Literally 30 seconds after I hit post reply here I got a call back, and will hopefully be getting it this evening.


----------



## DLK

Are you keeping it? Fine by me. If not please P.M. me


----------



## Mosquito

Was planning to when I sent him the e-mail. I was ready to pay more for the set that Dylan ended up picking up, and figured $100 wasn't much to debate lol


----------



## DLK

O.K. I missed it then.


----------



## DLK

I will be sharpening my first saw this weekend a 5 1/2 tpi Diston 28" saw.
Just checking to be sure. Should it be 90 degrees and zero fleam?

I may have an old nichelson to do this, but abut 3 years ago I bought a set of grobet files from Lee-Valley. But I have read here that they may be "bad" files. How can I tell?


----------



## summerfi

Don, assuming this is a rip saw (at 5.5 ppi that's a good assumption) then zero degrees fleam is appropriate. By 90 degrees I think you're referring to rake. Rake is measured from vertical, so I think you actually mean zero degrees. Zero degrees rake is a very aggressive filing, which will make the saw hard to start and hard to use. I prefer 8 degrees negative rake, but some people like 5 degrees. A crosscut saw would have more like 12 to 15 degrees rake and 20 to 25 degrees fleam.

Don't worry about knowing if a file is bad. You'll know. Either it will be dull (won't cut) or the teeth on the edges will crumble (won't push).


----------



## DLK

Its a thumb-hole saw, 28" long (D-8). So I am pretty sure its rip. I will see what the current rake is.
When measuring rake angle is as you face the saw plate positive to the left and negative to the right?


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

Positive is as the point leaning forward, negative leaning back from vertical.


----------



## Mosquito

It depends on which side the handle is on when you're looking at the plate 

This is a helpful article on the subject: 
http://www.blackburntools.com/articles/saw-tooth-geometry/index.html


----------



## Mosquito

Typically when people say "rake angle" it's expressed in a positive number as illustrated below: (my caveat, I'm not an expert)

0° rake, 15° positive, and 15° negative, tote to the right.









I don't know why you would file 15° of negative rake, as that would be super aggressive and probably unusable, but yeah.


----------



## bandit571

Rust Hunting today…turned down a mitrebox and saw ( $15) but had even cash on hand for these toys…









Spend $8 for these three. Longest is 28" x 5" ....other two are a mere 27" x 5" 









Appears to be two Disstons, and a Warranted with an Eagle. Oh, and this was









Was just $3. IF I had the extra $100…..LOTS of goodies to be had today…
BTW, saw in the mitre box matched these saws.


----------



## JKMDETAIL

Mosquito - Great link. That is some good info.


----------



## DLK

Well I should have read what you guys wrote. But what I did was set the file in the teeth and followed how they were previously sharpened. Which if I understand the "blackburn tools link" Mos gave was 10 degrees fleam and 0 degrees rake. I gave her a try (with out the handle) and she cuts great. The handle is off and has its second coat of finish (Tru-oil) drying on it. But I have a friend near by that sharpens saws for hire and I will see what he says I did.


----------



## Brit

> Typically when people say "rake angle" it s expressed in a positive number as illustrated below: (my caveat, I m not an expert)
> 
> 0° rake, 15° positive, and 15° negative, tote to the right.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don t know why you would file 15° of negative rake, as that would be super aggressive and probably unusable, but yeah.
> 
> - Mosquito


Mos - I know you won't mind if I point out that you got the negative and the positive the wrong way round. The middle illustration is negative rake and the illustration on the right is positive rake.


----------



## DanKrager

Whew! Relief…thank you Brit. I thought I had been wrong all these years! I don't have much experience on the matter of rake and to be honest didn't pay much attention when I had all the Foley stuff. Just matched what was there. Fleam is a new (recent) term to me too.

DanK


----------



## Brit

There is an interesting (though wordy) book published in 1864 and written by W. H. Holly with the rather grand title of '*The Art of Saw Filing - Scientifically Treated and Explained on Philosophical Principles*'. In it Holly argues in favour of a positive rake. In fact when referring to a rip saw with 0 degrees of rake he says "There is really no cutting about it. The wood is merely jammed or scraped out with a very unnecessary expenditure of power."

He must be turning in his grave when we file 0 to 8 degrees of negative rake on rip saws these days. Even in Holly's day though, nine-tenths of the saws were filed with 0 degrees of rake. One day I'm going to file a rip saw as Holly recommends and see if he was right or not. In theory it makes sense to have teeth with a positive rake on a rip saw don't you think?










It goes without saying that the angle of the saw to the face of the wood being cut is also important.


----------



## DLK

Having now played with the saw, I think I will sharpen it again-- correctly.re

Question do you always reset the saw? What should the saw set be dialed to for a 5 1/2 tpi rip-saw?


----------



## donwilwol

> DonW has done that a few times on his hand planes. He does it using a mill.
> 
> - ToddJB
> 
> With a mill eh?. I think I will turn a tenon.
> 
> - Combo Prof


If I remember correctly, the saw handle dovetailed fix was on Facebook.


----------



## Mosquito

Not at all Brit, that's why I didn't put text on th eimage lol


----------



## Brit

> Having now played with the saw, I think I will sharpen it again-- correctly.re
> 
> Question do you always reset the saw? What should the saw set be dialed to for a 5 1/2 tpi rip-saw?
> 
> - Combo Prof


Don - As Bob suggested, 8 degrees of negative rake is a good place to start. As to how much you should set the teeth, you need to bear in mind that the more you bend the teeth out either side, the wider the kerf will be and the more wood you have to remove. The more wood you have to remove, the slower the saw will be. However, if you do not apply enough set, the saw will feel tight in the kerf making it more difficult to push. Aim for about three thousandths of an inch either side and test the saw. Of course you will need a means to measure the amount of set such as a micrometer or vernier calipers. It is easier to add more set than it is to remove too much set, so take your time and sneak up on it. Keep trying it and remember that your saw is also taper ground so that is also working in your favour in terms of allowing the saw to pass through the kerf.


----------



## Brit

The way to think of it Mos is that if the gullet of a tooth is closer to the handle than the point of the tooth, the more effective it will be at raking out the chips. In other words it is having a 'positive' effect on the raking efficiency. When the gullet is ahead of the point, it is less effective at raking the chips and therefore has a 'negative' effect on the raking efficiency if that makes sense.


----------



## DLK

Thanks, I have turned a tenon. Here is the restored Diston 5 1/2 tpi, 28 inch, D-8 thumbhole saw.

*Before:*









*After:*









Closeup of the tote:










I did not loose the etch:










I just need to re-sharpen it.


----------



## DLK

^I of course meant "handle" when I wrote "tote".

Should I hammer out the old set, joint, shape, sharpen and then re-set. Or can I
just joint, shape, and sharpen and skip the re-setting?


----------



## Mosquito

That makes sense Brit, thanks


----------



## summerfi

Don, that saw looks great. Whether to try to hammer out some of the set depends on how much set is there now. Unless it is an extreme amount of set, I would leave it. The set will be reduced with each subsequent sharpening. Hammering the set and then resetting means working the teeth back and forth, and this greatly increases the chance of breaking a tooth.

Speaking of breaking teeth, I'll share something I tried recently to see how it strikes you guys. I recently reshaped and set the teeth on a mid 1800's saw that had a thick plate and brittle teeth. During setting, six teeth broke, despite ensuring that I was setting them in the same direction that they were previously set. It was a course tooth saw, so it was quite a chore reshaping the teeth again until all the broken ones were full height. Then it came time to set it again, and the last thing I wanted was to break more teeth. I remembered reading that an old timer said that laying a saw in the hot sun to warm before setting reduces the chance of breaking teeth. It was a cool rainy day, so instead I used a propane torch to warm the teeth before setting. I didn't get the teeth hot, certainly not hot enough to affect temper. Just warm enough to set about half a dozen teeth before it was cool again, then heat it up a little more and do another 6 teeth. This time I only broke the top half off of one tooth, which was a big improvement, and I just left that tooth. I've learned to tell a candidate for broken teeth just by looking at it. Old saws with thick plates and coarse teeth seem to be the prime candidates. Several days later I needed to set another saw that was a good candidate for broken teeth. I used the propane torch method on it and broke no teeth. So I think this method shows promise, but I need to use it more before drawing any conclusions. Any thoughts any of you may have on this are welcome.


----------



## Brit

I not so sure that heating the saw plate in the sun or with a propane torch to the degree you describe would have any effect Bob. In either case you are not heating the plate enough to affect the molecular properties of the material. I believe it is more likely that you saw a reduction the second time around purely because you had to joint and re-shape the teeth again and therefore you moved the point at which the teeth bend into a part of the plate that had not been previously bent (worked).


----------



## DLK

Thanks Bob, no chemicals where used in cleaning the saw plate.

So when do you need to set the teeth? Every sharpening? When teeth are reshaped? Do you first joint, shape, sharpen and the test cut to decide if more set is needed? I think perhaps not really sure that the cut of this saw is a little rough. Does that mean some teeth are over set?

I may try the progressive rake that Paul Sellers advocates.


----------



## summerfi

Don, the book answer is you joint, shape, set, and sharpen. Some people set after sharpening, but that's not the best approach IMO. The set will usually last through 2 or 3 sharpenings before you need to set again.

Inconsistent set can indeed cause a rough cut. If the set is obviously inconsistent you can try setting it again to make all teeth the same. If it is off only a little, running a stone down the sides of the teeth once or twice (side dressing) will help.


----------



## bandit571

Went back this morning and spent $15 on a Stanley Mitrebox









With another big Disston saw included…









Will post more, when I can get this thing cleaned up, and presentable to Polite Company…


----------



## bandit571

Got to where I could at least read the etch on the saw…

STANLEY MITRE BOX SAW

Made in USA

Something about Philly, PA. as well. As for the nickle plated medallion:

DISSTON * U.S.A.*

Hmmm….


----------



## Brit

Nice score Bandit.


----------



## JKMDETAIL

Bandit, saw one like it today at the local Flea Market. $45


----------



## houblon

Update on my bent Disston 7 backsaw: I removed the back and tried to bend it, but I stopped before getting it perfectly straight. The blade went in fine, but in the center it is now quite lose. I think this is from bending (if you take a long strip of paper and fold itl engthwise, then bend it the sides will open up). Could have been the removed rust as well. Some sharpening, and it cuts great. Totally worth the $2.


----------



## bandit571

Well, I have been cleaning the other three saws from that same Garage Sale spot. 
So far:

Another Disston, three bolt tote, has the spine stamping about Henry Disston & Sons Cast Steel. Medallion seems to be a replacement. At least there is a gap around the edges of the medallion. Plate has a rectangle etch, with a smaller rectangle under neath it, with Henry Disston & Sons in the box…

The other four bolt Disston? Still looking for the etch.

The Pheonix? Will clean it up later, after the Disstons are done.

Four big backsaws, and a matching mitre box for the one…..$23 total. Not too bad a weekend?


----------



## TheFridge

She's a beaut


----------



## houblon

Another update: the Davenport. So far I cleaned the blade with 400/600 paper and WD40. The handle was cleaned with 400 grit, then BLO and wax.

Before:









After:



































To do list: replace rivet, remove rust under handle, fix crack, straighten the toe, sharpen her up…


----------



## houblon

Here we go with another flea market find. Red painted handle. Split nuts get my attention.



















It turns out this is a H. Disston *no* sons medallion.










It get's better: a Henry Disston etch on the blade. Seems to be rare. Must be 1865?










Unfortunately the blade is down to nothing. It has been shortened already. What should I do? Paint has to go I guess?


----------



## TheFridge

If it doesn't have links I'd use it. Paint has to go.


----------



## summerfi

Houblon - Huge improvement on the Davenport. What a grand old saw. The little Disston is a nice find. Heck, the medallion alone is a nice find. I agree the red paint should go.


----------



## putty

I cant wait to see that little Disston stripped of the red paint. It looks well used and sharpened a lot!


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

Two awesome finds Houblon.


----------



## bandit571

Finally, underneath all the grime…a name plate emerges…STANLEY with a RED background. The No. 358 is stamped into the plate above the stanley name, with Made in USA below the stanley name. Now, I just have to research the number…..

The saw I bought with the mitre box, was made by Disston, expressly for Stanley. So, it seems I even have the correct saw for that mitre box….not too bad, for $15?


----------



## ToddJB

I believe the 3 is the frame size, the 5 is the depth of the saw, and the is for a 28" plate. So if your saw is 5×28, then you're good to go. Great grab for 15 bones.


----------



## DLK

> I believe the 3 is the frame size, the 5 is the depth of the saw, and the *8* is for a 28" plate. So if your saw is 5×28, then you re good to go. Great grab for 15 bones.
> 
> - ToddJB


----------



## bandit571

Box itself is now cleaned up, as far as I am taking it









new deck, a cross bar on the guides…..not much I can do about a tree, not enough rods, yet.


----------



## CFrye

> new deck, a cross bar on the guides…..not much I can do about a tree, not enough rods, yet.
> 
> - bandit571


 A tree?


----------



## bandit571

That is what the casting is called. It connects the main rod under the deck to a stop rod, and remain standing up, like a tree. IF this mitre box did have the tree, and the second rod…I would have gone over and bought a Powerball ticket….

The one rod I do have, needs a LOT of cleaning up, as does the coupler that goes with it. Very reddish brown right now.


----------



## bandit571

More mysteries in saws:

One of these has brass hardware..









And just three bolts. H.Disston & Sons Philada.
Another has too small of a medallion, lamb's tongue, and the etch is in the form of rectangles.
The nickle plated hardware on the third one is a Warranted Superior. With and Eagle holding a shield, with a fancy, stipled background.

Saws are 5" under the spine. Squared heel one is 28" long, the other two are 27" to the last tooth at the curved heel.

Three bolt brass Disston has a dark hardwood handle ( top horn has a crack in it) no Lamb's tongue, but a fancy cut-out for the hand. Spine had been stamped with the H. Disston & Sons over a Cast Steel Philada Warranteed
Currently trying to clean these three up..









Might be a bit…..

Maybe one of these should have gone with that Stanley No. 358 Mitre Box?


----------



## bandit571

Ok, have cleaned all of these medallions up:
Nickel plated Warranted Superior, with an eagle holding a shield
4 bolt with Lamb's Tongue, Brass Warranted Superior, with an empty circle in the middle
Three bolt, H.Disston & Sons brass. Etch on the plate involves a "STANLEY" in a box, over a larger box with a 
"Expressly made for Stanley Rule & level Co." New Britain CONN USA "by" Henry Disston & Sons" Philada. Made in USA, with a smaller box underneath:
"MITRE BOX
This saw also has the Cast Steel Henry Disston & Sons (arched over "Philada USA")then a Warranted stamped into the spine.

Maybe a diamond in the rough?


----------



## bandit571

Seems all four of those big saws were Disston No. 4 backsaws. Just different model years. Two do have a "Made expressly for Stanley" in their etches. Haven't found any etches on the other two.

Might be like that old "Grandpa's Hammer".....two different mitreboxes, four different saws, still Grandpa's Mitre Box.

Not sure IF the Lamb's Tongue handle can be saved…....it is chock full of cracks, like it shattered. Picked old glue out of a few spots. Pattern for a "new" one, maybe?

$23 total for the Stanley No.358 and the four saws….not a bad day…


----------



## jmartel

Bandit, if you need templates, there's a large amount of them here. You might be able to find one similar enough for what you want to print it out and make it a bit easier and it's free.

http://www.tgiag.com/saw-handle-scans.html

Looks like they have a couple Disston miterbox saw templates, but no lambs tongue. Easy enough to add from their templates though.


----------



## bandit571

May work on it, some day. Thank you. Would need a block of the right sized and type of wood, though. I do have three saws in very good shape, right now, so this can be set aside for later.

Need to move this huge mitrebox OFF my bench, so I can get back to building a rocking chair….


----------



## onoitsmatt

My parents came to visit. Dad said he picked this one up at a yard sale in Kansas City for $2. He knows I like old saws so he bought it and gave it to me. It's a 10" Winchester No 23. In really nice shape too. Good etch and the back still has original bluing. If bluing is a word.


----------



## Johnny7

bluing is indeed a word-and that's a nice (and collectible) saw!


----------



## Tim457

Nice, I'm not sure I've seen one in the wild with the bluing intact. Nice score for 2 bucks. Yeah, some Winchester tools are actually collectible, but I didn't know about saws. Thanks Johnny.


----------



## onoitsmatt

Thanks! I'm pretty tickled to have it. He got it a month or so ago. I tried to get him to email pictures but have had to wait. It really is in good shape.


----------



## CampD

Took some paying shop time off to do a saw handle remake. An early Disston 26" miter saw, Etching is stanley sweetheart. Wood is spalted hard maple rescued from the wood pile.





































Will stain tomorrow, think I'll go dark for an aged look.


----------



## putty

Nice work Camper!!!


----------



## summerfi

Three more saws recently restored. Disston No. 7, Spear & Jackson, and E. Henry table saw. The two long saws were sold to a fellow in New York. I'll hang on to the table saw for now.


----------



## terryR

Beautiful work, Bob.
My oh my, look at the teeth on Mr. S&J! Looks like a two-handed saw in my shop. what a gorgeous handle…


----------



## bandit571

I think this MIGHT be a Disston No.4









9ppi, filed rip, about 14" long. Had to wax things up a bit….
Might have been made right before HK Porter bought out Disston.

back was blued, no etch to be found, softened all the curved areas to better fit my hands, seems to do an ok job…


----------



## houblon

Bob, they all look great, but that S&J would be my favorite. The handle looks smaller than the No7, is that correct?


----------



## summerfi

No, the handle on the S&J isn't smaller. It's just a big saw (28"), so proportionally it looks smaller. It's a bit on the thin side though at 13/16".


----------



## theoldfart

I picked up another Simmonds today. A number 10 that I think is an early one because of the handle. I have another 10 with a plainer handle.









it has a good clean etch









So not including mitre saws this brings the Simmonds count to four


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

. Bob, Amazing as always on your salvage work. The S&J looks like a Top Fuel Dragster and I Really like the Henry, Calling first dibbs if you part ways.

OF.. You are Hoggin all the Good Simmonds in your timezone.


----------



## Mosquito

I ended up with an Atkins, among others, after this weekend… 



























Part of what my grandfather left behind when he passed away, I got what was left this weekend. My Grandpa was Carl L Jahn, and C.W.Jahn would have been his dad and my great grandfather…


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

Very nice saw Mos. you are lucky that came into your hands and a worthy recipient. How far will you go in cleaning ?


----------



## Mosquito

I'm not sure if I will yet or not


----------



## donwilwol

Nice Simmonds OF. It seems a lot of Simmonds have a strong etch. I wonder if they used a better etch process?

Mos, having a saw that came from that far back in the family is pretty amazing.


----------



## theoldfart

Moss, you are a lucky man for sure.


----------



## theoldfart

Don, some of the Simonds etches had remarkable colors as well.


----------



## Johnny7

> Don, some of the Simonds etches had remarkable colors as well.
> 
> - theoldfart


Just blue, as far as I know, for their top-of-the-line "Blue Ribbon" saws

here's a shot from one of my NOS Simonds (not the greatest photo, but you get the idea)


----------



## theoldfart

I thought I saw some yellow on the text to the right of the main etch on one of mine.

J7, do you know of any Simonds that came with a lambs tongue handle?


----------



## kwigly

TOF,
my "Simonds Guide For Carpenters" includes a saw catalogue which shows the No. 10 with the lamb's tongue handle. This booklet is undated, but they were advertised as available in a 1905 magazine Advt.


----------



## theoldfart

kwigly, thank you for the info. I feel better!


----------



## Johnny7

Yes, I think you have to go back to Simonds' first decade to find a lamb's tongue detail.

Simonds made handsaws for only 25 years (1901-26)

The early handle designs (featuring lambs' tongues) would be more likely to have the crescent moon logo, than the elaborate later logo


----------



## Ajs73

Hi all, First time posting on this thread but
look in often. I picked up a box full of saw sets &
looking to sell off. (Can't collect everything)
I have no idea of value but thinking they should be worth $10 a piece as a set but Idk. Am I better off selling individually or as a complete package. 
Sets include A Stillman, GL Holt, Stanley, EC Stearns, Croissant & Bro, Apex, Taintors, N Disston, Morrills, & others that I don't see any markings. 
Does $200 seem like a fair price that will go quickly or am I to low or high. There's 20 saw sets & box weighs 17 lbs. 
Don't have time to research so any help would be appreciated.


----------



## theoldfart

Thanks Johnny


----------



## summerfi

Ajs73 - When it comes to selling saw sets, it's all about type. I don't see any in your group that are of the type that is in high demand by actual users of saw sets. So your group will likely be of more interest to saw set collectors, of which I don't believe there are a lot.

Your best bet to get the most out of them would be to sell them on eBay. I would select out a few of the nicer ones, like the Stanley, the Disston, etc. and sell them individually. Then group the others in groups of 3 or 4 and sell the groups. By doing that you might get an average price of $10 or maybe even a little more.


----------



## Johnny7

> I don't see any in your group that are of the type that is in high demand by actual users of saw sets.
> 
> - summerfi


I don't know, Bob-isn't it possible that one or both of these two are 42Xs?


----------



## Tim457

I agree overall with Bob's recommendation. I'd be surprised anyone would pay $200 for the lot, even though that's a decent price for each.

The one near the upper left is a raker gauge for crosscut logging saws. Probably has a pin gauge on it too, but I can't see it.

I've never seen sets like the ones on the lower left. How do those work? Like a wrest?


----------



## Brit

Ajs73 - The question you really need to answer before considering what people would be prepared to pay is "Are all the saw sets complete and in good working condition?" I say this because a saw set that is missing a part is no longer a saw set. It won't work and therefore is worth nothing. There are some pretty early saw sets in your photo that no self-respecting saw sharpener would use these days simply because they are inaccurate and there are better tools available now.

As Johnny7 pointed out, if those Stanley sets are 42x models in good working order (ie. the anvil and hammer are not worn too much and the springs are still functioning correctly), then you should consider selling them on ebay.co.uk. Stanley 42x sets are rarely seen in the UK since everyone used the Eclipse No.77 set. When you do see a Stanley 42x for sale in good condition, people scramble to get it and you can expect it to go for around £50 - £60.

You might get £20 for the Disston if it is in good working order and none of the parts are missing, but don't hold your breath.

I doubt very much you will shift the rest unless it is for very little money and someone buys them just to hang on the wall as a nod to the past.


----------



## Brit

Oh and to maximize the auction amount that vintage tools go for, list them so that the auction ends between 19:30 and 20:30 on a Saturday or Sunday. Trust me on that.


----------



## summerfi

> I don t know, Bob-isn t it possible that one or both of these two are 42Xs?
> 
> - Johnny7


No, those are the Stanley 42 model. The hump on the back is a dead giveaway. Not nearly as desirable as the 42x.

I'll agree with Andy on the times, but in the U.S Sunday and Monday are the best days for eBay selling. People are too busy playing on Saturdays to look at eBay.

Tim - yes, those on the lower left are saw wrests.


----------



## Ajs73

Thanks for all your help, still don't know what to do.
I guess I'll put them up with my boxes full of old marking gauges
& hand drills for now


----------



## Cfhwoodworks

I was wondering if anyone recognises this etch, I can't really make it out, it looks like the first two letters are T and O. Also there is writing just above the tooth line most of it is worn off, I can only make out the fist two words "saw" and "is". Any help would be appreciated thanks.


----------



## Brit

Cfhwoodworks - Could you post a photo of the saw. Sometimes you can tell who made the saw by the handle and other features.


----------



## Cfhwoodworks

Brit - Sorry this is my first time posting on here, still trying to figure out how to post a picture using my phone. I'll try the computer.


----------



## Johnny7

Bob-re 42 vs 42X

thanks for clarifying that-the sad thing is, I used to know that!


----------



## TheFridge

the one etch I've seen in the wild is a simonds. On a lil gents saw I bought because it had it


----------



## Cfhwoodworks

Here's a picture of the etch I need help identifying


----------



## Cfhwoodworks

Also here's a picture of the handle if that helps, the medallion was missing.


----------



## Cfhwoodworks

After further inspection I believe the etch says "Tornado" can't find anything about who makes it though. Anyone here have an idea?


----------



## Brit

Nothing yet I'm afraid


----------



## bearkatwood

I got my saw bags in today, super happy with them though the logo could have been a bit bigger. They will go out with saw orders that I have. I also posted a new saw the other day and forgot to put it here as well. 
Have a great night. 








It has an olive tote.
The bags can hold three saws, four if you are clever and some other goodies.


















I am also experimenting with the color on my wax blocks, I want them to look like wood, but not leave to much coloring behind when you use them. These are a bit pink yet, but I am getting there.


----------



## Mosquito

You can fit more than 3 saws in that bag if you try, I've tried lol


----------



## TheFridge

That's what she said


----------



## CampD

Put together a couple franken saws over the weekend. Picked up the blades for $.50 ea. at a flea market.
Sharpened them up and they actually work very good.










Handle on the Gent saw is an extra file handle I had.


----------



## bandit571

I doubt if these three would fit in that bag..









Will be keeping only one of these, might sell the newer two,,All are Disston #4 Mitre saws ONE I am keeping has an etch stating it was made for the Stanley mitre box I have..









Stanley 358….needs a "spare saw"? I now have two saws, with the "Expressly made for Stanley…" etch. Disston & Sons medallions, too.

Wonder about what to sell the "non-etched" ones for…..


----------



## dbray45

I bought one for $40 on the bay. Turned out it was an old Langdon in pretty good shape. The teeth are straight but at an angle. One of these days I will re-tooth it to be square.


----------



## DLK

I found this Keystone Pace Maker 10 tpi for $3 today. Plate along the teeth measures 20 inches. Cleaned the front with autosol which revealed to my suprise the etch. Can someone provide details and value for it? I will work on the final cleaning tomorrow. It has very little rust.










Here is a close up.


----------



## duckmilk

Don, check these out:

http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/key1935.html

http://swingleydev.com/ot/get/93196/thread/

According to both sources, it apparently is not taper ground. The Challenger in the Disston ad is the only one that says taper ground.


----------



## duckmilk

I saw some on the bay for $20+


----------



## bandit571

Been using the Challenger 5-1/2 rip today..









Might have it sharpened just about right?


----------



## donwilwol

I just picked this Disston #12 up today. It's the handle that has me a little baffled. It sure looks like rosewood. Distton institute says they came in apple and some ships Saws came in Mahogany.

Thoughts


----------



## DLK

Thanks for the info. Duck I particularly liked the link to the Distonian Institute.

Any have advice on using bluing to enhance the etch?


----------



## bandit571

I went to a sporting goods store and bought the paste in a tube style. I smear it on, let it work for a while, then sand off the excess. Leaves the blued part in the etch.


----------



## donwilwol

> Thanks for the info. Duck I particularly liked the link to the Distonian Institute.
> 
> Any have advice on using bluing to enhance the etch?
> 
> - Combo Prof


Here is an article JayT wrote that works very well.

http://www.timetestedtools.net/2016/01/26/hand-saw-restorations-how-to-bring-back-the-detail-of-an-etch/


----------



## chrisstef

I wouldnt be surprised if it is rosewood yoda. Lots of leftover parts in that disston factory and it looks like you found an upgrade. Thats my call. Great lookin saw buddy.


----------



## donwilwol

One more stumper.

I've been looking through my very limited Distton documentation. Distton institute and Hand Saw Makers of North American and can't find a thing on this Disston #24.
Etch is Henry Distton and Sons.


----------



## putty

I love that handle repair Don!


----------



## Johnny7

no handle repair as far as I can see …

That is a Disston version of the Vulcan No 15-(Disston No. D-24)
It's a pruning saw


----------



## donwilwol

The first one is a Distton 12 Mahogany handle ships saw. After taking it apart I got a better look under the bold heads and its mahogany.










The second is as Johnny says, This was a saw that was originally sold by Harvey Peace, then after Disston bought out Peace it was sold by Disston. The earlier version sold by Peace had a straight back, and the later ones sold by Disston usually had a "sway back" like the D8 made popular.


----------



## Brit

Great finds Don. Never seen the second of those saws before. Looks built to last and it obviously has.


----------



## terryR

Don, sorry it wasn't rosewood, but the handle certainly looks better without the red lacquer IMO.

cool find on the D-24!


----------



## CampD

For the western mass ljs
http://westernmass.craigslist.org/tls/5587161338.html


----------



## theoldfart

Doug, I saw that CL listing. Right now I have roughly twenty saws waiting for rehab. Just no room or time!


----------



## Mosquito

Got the new friction drive wheel I ordered for the 385, and did a quick test run using some electrons, rather than hand power. Seems to work well, though I'm still missing one of the springs that holds the carrier bar in place (borrowing one from a filer at the moment).










I was creating 11ppi/10tpi with this run


----------



## ToddJB

Awesome, Mos.


----------



## Mosquito

Busted out the saw filer too, Monday night, but… um… that'll require a bit of learning lol


----------



## ToddJB

A may have to send you some plates to practice on. I won't even charge you for your learning curve


----------



## Mosquito

lol they may come back slightly smaller than sent 

I had a piece of 1095 I bought form McMaster a while ago, but it had a decent curve to it (despite being "flat stock" it was likely just cut from a roll and shipped. I've been practicing on that for now, though I did run a 12" tenon saw through the retoother.


----------



## Brit

Great work Mos and thanks for the vid.


----------



## onoitsmatt

Cool, Mos. You have me checking my local Craigslist for one (which there is one). You were the cause of my need for a Stanley 45 too. You have to stop posting this stuff, it's getting expensive


----------



## Mosquito

lol oops… If it makes you feel better, the #45s are probably a more expensive thing for me


----------



## Brit

Mos - have you seen this? The second half is about saws.


----------



## Mosquito

I have Andy, but always worth a rewatch (I think I've watched it at least twice already, and probably just started on a 3rd…)


----------



## Brit

He almost files that saw as fast as I do. LOL.

No, truth is I'd still be looking for my glasses and he'd be finished.


----------



## DLK

FYI:

Foley-Belsaw sharpening equipment (16 miles west of Minocqua) 1301 West Squaw Lake Road


----------



## DLK

What is a good saw vintage saw vise to look for?


----------



## summerfi

Depends on what you want to pay Don. The big Acme vise is the best, but they are hard to find and run a few hundred dollars. Of the smaller vises, I think the Wentworth is probably the best. In truth though, none of them work any better, and most not as well as, a good home made wooden vise.


----------



## summerfi

Mos, based on the video, your retoother is doing a fine job. I have trouble getting uniform tooth size and spacing on mine and haven't figured out why yet. Either my ratchet bars are worn out, something is out of adjustment, or both.


----------



## DLK

Thanks *Bob* I was was coming to the same conclusion through my readings.


----------



## Mosquito

> Mos, based on the video, your retoother is doing a fine job. I have trouble getting uniform tooth size and spacing on mine and haven t figured out why yet. Either my ratchet bars are worn out, something is out of adjustment, or both.
> 
> - summerfi


Good to know Bob lol I've been figuring if I'm getting even teeth then things are probably going ok… I've avoided the more worn ratchet bars thus far, though, so that could be a future issue


----------



## Tim457

Thanks Bob, those were the names I couldn't recall that had been talked about as the best saw vices. I will have to say though that I have a generic vintage saw vice that works way better than I thought it would. It's short so I assumed it would be a pain, but moving the saw is easy enough that it works pretty well.

Didn't EricF have some extra sets of foley ratchet bars machined? What do these things look like? Seems like a person with a mill could whip them up


----------



## Mosquito

Someone was at one point talking about making ratchet bars. I found a post from last year that someone had some custom made and were selling the remainders here/on eBay, but I don't think the two were related


----------



## DLK

I was have a Disston D-8 26" 8 ppi saw.

It will be my first real attempt to sharpen a saw correctly!

I think if I measure correctly it has 10 degree rake and 20 degree fleam. Does this seem possible? (or did I measure wrong.)


Should I keep it that way or change the rake and fleam? 
What is recommend? 
Is there are a list/table of recommended saw filings (rake and fleam) somewhere? 
Is there a good explanation of why you would want a saw sharpened one way as opposed to another?

Sorry for so many questions.


----------



## summerfi

Don, I suggest you read this article. It should answer most of your questions, but if you still have some after reading then come back and ask again.
http://blackburntools.com/articles/saw-tooth-geometry/index.html


----------



## DLK

> Don, I suggest you read this article. It should answer most of your questions, but if you still have some after reading then come back and ask again.
> http://blackburntools.com/articles/saw-tooth-geometry/index.html
> 
> - summerfi


O.K. Sorry I was a little frustrated today.


----------



## Brit

Don - When it left the factory it would probably have been sharpened with 15 degrees of negative rake and 24 degrees of fleam and the toothline would have been breasted (slightly convex).


----------



## Brit

Picked up this 22" panel saw today.

Seller said: "Antique saw engraved J. Gleave & Son, 8 Oldham Street, Manchester. As per pictures in working condition, May need resharpening "

Might need retoothing. It will be a nice saw once it is cleaned up though and no name stamps on the handle. HOORAH!!!

Seller's pics:


----------



## donwilwol

Very nice Andy. I can't wait to see the "After Andy" photos


----------



## summerfi

That's a nice looking saw Andy. Here's what "the book" has to say about Joseph Gleave & Son:

Various addresses from 1832 to today, they were major plane makers and tool dealers, but did not make the saws which are quite frequently found with their name, nor were they listed as saw makers.

The book shows three varieties of J. Gleave & Son name stamps, one attributed to Whearman & Smith, one to W. Tyzack, Sons & Turner, and one with no name. The Wheatman & Smith is the only one that includes a street address, and it is the same address as your saw. It is given a date of 1880. They also show a backsaw by R. Groves & Sons with a J. Gleave & Son etch on the blade.


----------



## DLK

Is "the book" still for sale? I should get one. Where is a link to buy it?


----------



## summerfi

You can get it from Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/British-Saws-Sawmakers-Simon-Barley/dp/1909300748

But it's cheaper if you buy directly from the author. I even had him autograph mine.
http://www.hawleytoolcollection.com/index.php?sheffield-tool=papers-and-publications


----------



## warrenkicker

Finally had the time and all of the tools I needed to finish cleaning up a Disston No 4 I picked up about a year ago. Used my new saw vice and the Stanley 42X I got. Also had to use my new magnifying arm with light. That makes things much easier. I had to retooth the saw a while back and it just needed a final jointing, set and sharpening. Cuts pretty well now. Tried it in oak and a cedar fence board. It is filed xcut 14 ppi.



















Then I sharpened this beauty. It is a Popular Mechanics miter box saw. It is rip and 12 ppi.


----------



## Brit

Thanks for the info Bob and I didn't even have to ask. You know me too well.

Congrats Warren. Feels good doesn't it?


----------



## DLK

thanks Bob, I may get it from Amazon as I need to buy $49 worth of stuff to get free shipping and I have a couple of other small things to buy. But I'll check the authors page as well.


----------



## CFrye

So, I went rust hunting this morning and came home with this rustless Disston Thumbie D-8(?). I had to save it! 



























$15
Initially I thought it was a newer model but after studying the Disstonian Institute medallion page, I'm thinking its from the '80's? 1880's! The top horn is broken and the entire handle is painted. 
Please tell me the best/safest way to remove the paint from the medallion, the handle (without destroying any possible patent dates), and the plate (without obliterating any possible remaining etch)?
Thanks in advance. Plus, let me know if I'm ID'ing this incorrectly.


----------



## donwilwol

Candy, get some paint stripper. Use a scraper of some kind in the plate. I use a utility knife blade. Hopefully the paint protected everything underneath, which is often the case.

Have You've read about the guy who found a painted panther saw?


----------



## CFrye

Yes, I did read that! 
Would you use the stripper on the handle as well? I just finished reading Handsaw Rescue by Mike Hagemyer at WK Fine Tools


----------



## DLK

I now use a razor blade scraper on saw plates, but I first round off the corners of the razor blade. This is so that the blade won't scratch the saw plate. I use a belt sander or sanding disk to round off the corners.










I might try just scraping the handle with card scrapers. But, indeed it looks like you may have to soften the paint with stripper first.

I'm not sure what the stripper will do to the medallion. Maybe try something not so caustic first. Like Mineral Spirits/paint thiner.


----------



## CFrye

Good tip on rounding the corners, Don K. Thanks.


----------



## theoldfart

I found an intriguing saw vise today









At one time it was a well built tool. All edges were chamfered, the tenons were well executed and the design is pretty ingenious. It has seen better days, it was stored outside. I intend to take measurements and reproduce it.



























Also got these


----------



## HokieKen

I like that jaw shape OF. How do they lock clamped? I don't see any bolts or cams…


----------



## WillliamMSP

^^^ there's a relatively recent Woodwright's episode where Roy does a bit of an overview on a similarly designed saw vise.

Edit: this one - http://www.pbs.org/video/2365021480/


----------



## theoldfart

Kenny, the stretcher at the end of the middle upright rotates and cams the arm.


----------



## CFrye

Ran across two more designs at WK fine tools last night. 









Bob Smalser article.

Looking forward to seeing your recreation, Kevin!


----------



## putty

Nice Vice, does it fold up for storage too?


----------



## theoldfart

Bill, thanks for posting that episode.

Candy, and I thought i found a one-off! Going to check out the Smalser posting.

Putty, it folds flat but that's it.


----------



## donwilwol

Candy, I don't typically use stripper on the handles, but there is no reason not to. I usually scrape and sand, but that's more because I'm to cheap to by stripper.


----------



## CFrye

Kevin, I'm not clear how your version clamps. It doesn't seem to be the same. 
Nice score on the files. 


> Candy, I don t typically use stripper on the handles, but there is no reason not to. I usually scrape and sand, but that s more because I m to cheap to by stripper.
> 
> - Don W


Well, if I get it to use on the plate then might as well use it on the handle.


----------



## chrisstef

I saw that roy episode a while back and fawned over that vice. Amazing find kevin. Id love to join in with you on that build if you dont mind sharing measurements and such.


----------



## theoldfart

The vise shown in the "woodwright": http://www.pbs.org/video/2365021480/ episode is identical to mine. Candy, watch the episode, it'll answer all your questions.

Stef, no problem. It'll take me a little while to draw it up since I'm headed to Maine on Friday.

Edit: I should clarify the vise in the Woodwright video I'm referring to is the one St Roy is reproducing, not the first one shown.


----------



## DanKrager

These be some nice saw vises.

Candy, do what's easier or more comfortable re: stripper vs. scrape and sand. I would be concerned about stripper residue lodged in the bolt holes and crevices. It remains active until neutralized, so take care to neutralize thoroughly. It's really messy to find out what happens to the active metal bolts (brass) and saw plate exposed to stripper that wasn't neutralized. Don't ask.
DanK


----------



## CFrye

Thanks for the warning, Dan. I'll be careful.


----------



## donwilwol

Candy, I probably should have mentioned, the last painted saw I did, the paint came off with citric acid. It worked out well. I would not use it on the handle though.


----------



## CFrye

Ooo, I have some of that already. I'll give it a try next day off. Did you soak the plate? For how long? What concentration? Did you blog it? Thanks, Don.


----------



## Brit

Personally I wouldn't use stripper on a saw plate or a handle. It would work, but I doubt it is really necessary. A sharp blade should take the paint off the plate with a lot less mess and I would scrape the paint off the handle using a cabinet scraper. If you do use paint stripper though, make sure you wear appropriate gloves. That stuff can burn you.


----------



## donwilwol

> Ooo, I have some of that already. I ll give it a try next day off. Did you soak the plate? For how long? What concentration? Did you blog it? Thanks, Don.
> 
> - CFrye


I did soak the plate. Its in a self made metal container. Its posted somewhere, but not blogged. My concentration is a good guess. The more you add the faster it works. It was sitting on my wood stove at the time. Hot water makes it work faster. A couple hours is usually sufficient. I don't like leaving it overnight. Once the rust is gone, acid doesn't stop.


----------



## ErikF

> These be some nice saw vises.
> 
> Candy, do what s easier or more comfortable re: stripper vs. scrape and sand. I would be concerned about stripper residue lodged in the bolt holes and crevices. It remains active until neutralized, so take care to neutralize thoroughly. It s really messy to find out what happens to the active metal bolts (brass) and saw plate exposed to stripper that wasn t neutralized. Don t ask.
> DanK
> 
> - Dan Krager


Stripper residue also leads to failed marriages and empty wallets. Just my quick $.02


----------



## CFrye

> The vise shown in the "woodwright": http://www.pbs.org/video/2365021480/ episode is identical to mine. Candy, watch the episode, it ll answer all your questions.
> - theoldfart


Right you are!


----------



## bandit571

Candy: last time I did "Rescue Saws" I used Klean Strip spray. Spray it on, let it sit on the plate, wash the junk off with the help of a plastic putty knife. 









The hardest part was getting the paint out of all them teeth…..brass toothbrush..


----------



## bandit571

Bought the four saws above for a dollar bill….









And these two were the "Gems" of the group….


----------



## DLK

Does anyone have a Disston 15 coping saw Blade Bolt Front Connector they would sell me?

(Is there is a better place to ask this question?)


----------



## kwigly

bought this rusty old backsaw because I thought the nice curvy handle might be salvagable even though the saw appeared to have been left out in the weather for a decade or two.










somewhat to my amazement all the saw screws came out without breaking (I seem to have a high failure rate in trying to remove these thin shank split nuts). So with no broken parts I thought I'd see how the plate cleaned up, with scrapers and various sandpapers



















Lots of pitting. You can almost read the Robt Sorby name and logo (if you know what you're looking for)










I could try evaporust or acid or electrolysis to get more rust out of the pits, but in my experience this just seems to emphasize the pits, so I didn't bother. The pitting forms a sort of snakeskin pattern thats kind of interesting (use your imagination) so I cleaned the screws a little, and dosed the handle with boiled linseed oil and paste wax, and put everything back together



















I haven't tried sharpening it yet, (based on the excuse that the pitting would spoil the tooth tip geometry and it likely wouldn't be a good cutter)


----------



## donwilwol

It certainly has some character. A new plate and spline and…....


----------



## ColonelTravis

Saw a Winchester panel saw yesterday at an estate sale, I don't know what model, all I know is that it was $10 and some guy got it right before I did. I was looking at it, he picked it up (he was closer, not like he leapfrogged me) and as he picked it up I saw the logo and said, "Is that a Winchester?" He looked at it and said, "Yep." Then I cursed under my breath.

Oh well.


----------



## WillliamMSP

How are Winchester tools, in general? I know nothing about them, but one seller at a local-ish antique shop has a drawknife and (I think) a jack plane and I want to say that they're each priced over $100, which strikes me as a bit high.


----------



## ColonelTravis

I've seen the Winchester planes that were modeled after Bedrocks, can't remember if Stanley made them? Think they did. But they're nice. Same era as the Bedrock-like KK planes, I believe. Winchester tools are collectible because of the name (it's the gun co.) and they're kinda rare.


----------



## summerfi

I don't believe Winchester made tools, they were made by other companies and branded Winchester. In my experience they bring a premium price due to the name and desirability to collectors. I saw a #4 size Winchester plane at a yard sale yesterday for $15. Based on the shape of the lat adjuster I don't think it was a Stanley product. It was on the rough side and I passed.


----------



## donwilwol

Stanley made the bedrock style for winchester, Sargent made the earlier ones. The Winchester's go for more than the Sargents of the same model most of the time and about the same for the bedrock style.


----------



## bandit571

Just boxed these three up for shipment..









Penn Corp 4×22, and a pair of WS 5×28's…....Half the weight of the box for these three is in bubble wrap and tape, with a bit of cardboard thrown in. Box is a might too big for them USPS types to play catch with….and that is the idea.


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

W & M panther head on Ebay.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Woodrough-McParlin-Panther-Head-Hand-Saw-Ohio-26-1-4-In-Blade-M3/331884283203?_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D36860%26meid%3Df65f370111214284a3091faf75ba900d%26pid%3D100011%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D10%26sd%3D131845171863


----------



## duckmilk

Curious what it'll go for Turtle


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

Me too Duck, in the current shape $300-400 would be my guess, being on Ebay, Who knows.! In good shape $1000 and up


----------



## duckmilk

Turtle, it started at 199.99 and sold for 202.50. Only 2 bids.


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

I was a little off, 
Here is a couple sales over @ Jim Bode .


----------



## duckmilk

Yeah, the one on the bay was in kinda rough shape.


----------



## JayT

Refurbed and modified this saw today. Started as a 24in miter box saw that I picked up somwhere for a couple bucks. Sanded off the rust, trimmed it down to 20in to use with my Stanley 150 and reworked the handle slightly to be more comfortable. Sharpened it up and it should work just fine.


----------



## theoldfart

I picked this up on vacation this week. A Disston No 9 circa 1888-1896. 18" 12 point faint etch and a small chip on the handle. It hasn't seen much use. Hardware store etch for Reed & Auerbach.


----------



## CFrye

Kevin, is there a particular name for that type of handle?


----------



## theoldfart

Candy, I honestly don't know.


----------



## DanKrager

Man, I hope that haul doesn't cause another meltdown on the T truck! Looks like potential.

Safe travels man.
DanK


----------



## duckmilk

Nice clean up Jay.

I'd like to find a saw that size Kevin. Unfortunately, there's not much selection in these parts.
The inside shape of that handle is similar to a No. 12.


----------



## theoldfart

Cleaned the 9 as far as I was comfortable doing


----------



## Brit

That came up great Kev.


----------



## donwilwol

> That came up great Kev.
> 
> - Brit


I agree!!


----------



## theoldfart

Thanks Andy. Anyone have an idea on how to get rid of the stains? I don't want to obliterate the etches.


----------



## theoldfart

Thanks Don


----------



## chrisstef

That's a sweet saw ya got there OF. A 9 is on my short list for sure.


----------



## bandit571

Disston…Stanley…...Atkins…..somehow, I have 6 coping saw in the shop. Just exactly how many does one need?

Getting to the point I actually will walk past the critters while on a rust hunt…might be time to thin the herd a bit?


----------



## MikeUT

Can anyone help me type this one out? I found this Disston backsaw at a local auction over the weekend and it was too rested and pitted to make out the etching. I can't see any numberings on it. It is 12" long and there isn't much of the teeth left but I think that it is 15 TPI. From the research I was done I'm thinking it is a No. 7 Disston but it is in the time period where it looks like the no 4's were polished steel too. What do you guys think?


----------



## bandit571

No.5?


----------



## summerfi

Could be a No. 7, but statistically the odds are much higher that it's a No. 4. I'm betting it originally had a blued spine. If you remove the handle you can often see remnants of the bluing where it was protected by the handle.


----------



## Brit

Nice saw Mike. The handle design is probably the most useful means of dating it. The apple handle is post 1918 and the design appeared until sometime in the 1930s. The spine stamp just puts it early 20th century and pre 1940s, so doesn't really help to narrow the date of manufacture much and the medallion was used pre and post the 1928 product line change, so isn't a lot of help in dating this saw either. We also know that pre 1928, No. 4s had blued spines and No. 7s had bright steel spines, but post 1928 the No. 7 was discontinued and the No. 4s had bright steel spines.

So, if I understood all the info on the Disstonian Institute website correctly, by my reckoning it is either:

a) A No. 7 post 1918 and pre 1928
or
b) A No. 4 with a blued steel (now worn off) spine post 1918 and pre 1928.
or
c) A No. 4 with a bright steel spine post 1928 and pre 1940.

If I had to stick my neck out, my gut is leaning towards option 'A' because the spine does not appear to have been sanded at all. Like the rest of us though, I'm afraid you'll probably have to resign yourself to fact that you'll never know the truth. Wouldn't it be nice if when you removed the handle from a saw there was an inscription saying something like: "This No.7 was assembled after lunch on the 23rd March 1920 by Albert Sharpteeth who was married with three kids and lived in Philadelphia." How inconsiderate of Disston not to think of that. )

Of course it would be even more frustrating without the Disstonian Institute website.

Like Bob said, see if there is any bluing on the sides of the spine where it goes into the handle. Whatever you've got though, it is a lovely saw in excellent condition which does not appear to have seen much use. It would most likely have been 3" under the spine when new with 14ppi.


----------



## MikeUT

Thanks for the confirmation guys. I am right along your line of reasoning Andy, I am thinking it is either your option A or C. When I pulled the saw apart while cleaning it the unexposed spine was dull but it didn't look blued. If I had to guess I would say that it started life as polished steel but as you see in this pic it was pretty far from pristine when I got my hands on it this weekend.

One more quick question- does anyone have any tricks to bring back some of the wood grain without losing all the patina? The back half of the handle is in pretty bad shape and you can't see any of the grain. I don't want it to look new but I would like to see a little grain too. Any tricks out there?


----------



## terryR

^try turtle wax polishing compound, awesome dry cleaner!










apply with a scotchbrite pad and scrub till happy. wax for a finish here.


----------



## bandit571

Spent $2 this morning, at the only garage sale that was open. 









The big hacksaw like thing is a Worth No. 40 Butcher's saw. The smaller saw?









Sunken H Disston & Sons of Philadelphia. Even says so on the saw's blade. 









Compass/Keyhole saw? Blade had a thin coat of wax all over it. 
Not too bad a morning?


----------



## theoldfart

Like the keyhole saw Bandit! I just found a pad saw last week and the blade was also marked Disston. Looking forward to your restore on it.


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## summerfi

I've posted this 14" Moulson Brothers triple cove saw before, but I finally got around to doing something with it. The plate is very pitted. I may replace it someday, but for now I decided to keep the saw as original as possible. It cuts fine, but doesn't look so nice. I made two repairs to the handle, one on the upper horn and one on the tip of the nose. The spine showed remnants of bluing when the handle was removed, so I re-blued it. Triple cove saws don't come around every day, so I'm happy to have this one in my collection.

*Before*



























*After*


----------



## summerfi

This is a 1940-47 era Disston D-8 "Lightweight" model that I just finished up. The lightweight model had a narrower plate than the standard model. I don't believe this saw had been sharpened since it left the factory. This is a 26" 8 ppi xcut saw. It cleaned up nice and will be for sale on my website.


----------



## CL810

Great work Bob!


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## Brit

You sure put a lot of love into that Moulson Bob. I think you should replace the plate when you feel like it and then use it. Thanks for showing us the wonderful results of your labors.


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## TheTurtleCarpenter

Awesome restore Bob, With the Tri cove and that big medallion it sets itself apart from the common. I think the plate is fine as is, to change it puts it into a user category rather than a collector.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

For all the saw restorers / refurbers / hacks like me out there, I'm looking for insight WRT handling a big saw problem I have. Specifically, saw nut removal. Well, not so much the removal of saw nuts themselves, as that's never proven to be an issue. It's 'blow out' or chipping of the wood surrounding a recessed saw nut that's the problem. And it happens almost all the time: Remove nut, push bolt through, and see chips surrounding the (formerly pristine) bolt head where the bolt had recessed over the years.

I've heard 'super glue them back into place,' but I'm curious: Is that the real (only) answer? Any way to prevent this from happening in the first place? I have a great little Atkins handle with a totally toasted blade that I'd like to move, but the saw nuts are so wonderfully nestled in 'patina' that it'll certainly blow chips as described above.

What to do (aside from sending it to Bob, of course)?


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## summerfi

Smitty, amazingly I've only had chip out around saw screws happen a few times. I guess I'm just lucky. The few times it has happened, I glued them back with super glue as you noted. Tips that I've seen include applying mineral spirits around the screw head and cutting around it with an x-acto knife before extracting the screw. I also think if you drilled a hole just slightly bigger than the screw head in a block of wood and used that as backing when tapping out the screw that some of the chip out may be avoided. Let us know if you have success.


----------



## Brit

I use a scalpel with a blade like this to carefully run around the edge. You can also use some 2" wide masking tape and press it down so you can see the outline of the screw head and then scalpel out the circle leaving the remaining masking tape in place around the screw head. Then tap it out gently over a dog hole.


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## DanKrager

I'm going to tread lightly as I have little experience here. Like y'all, it seems to me that crud and finish have bonded to the head strongly enough to pull out wood fibers. I'm thinking that the medallions have actually expanded as the nut was tightened, so it undercuts the drilled hole, i.e. the medallion is flattened a little bit. I like Bob's suggestion of pushing the bolt into a properly sized and positioned hole in a block of hard wood. I would think this is especially effective if the hole is same size or as much as 0.005" undersized. One only has to "break the seal" using the block, not push the bolt all the way into the hole. Oh, and leave the nut on the threads but loose when pushing. Here's where a (drill) press would be handy.

I think some heat would be a good thing to break the grip of crud on the bolt head, or perhaps some lacquer thinner, but not both….

Just some imaginings…
DanK


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## donwilwol

A Walter Cresson. Circa 1850


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## putty

That is a fantastic looking saw for its age Don, it looks like it was unused!


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## bandit571

A $1 Disston Keyhole saw…all cleaned up









The bolts that hold the handle seem a bit thin, and have a layer of copper on the inside. Medallion seems to be from…1874ish









H. Disston & Sons Philada is stamped on the blade, too









Handle did not have a single ding, nor a crack, anywhere. Cleaned it up, added a coat of BLO. Teeth seem to be in good shape. Might give them a refresh with a file…someday.


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## TheTurtleCarpenter

Thats a dollar well spent Bandit.

Don you must live in Old tool Heaven. There is not much pickin around Ky. I think the old farmers slam wore out there tools and. variety wasn't to be found. You might find a wore out D-7 around with a $35 price tag.


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## TheFridge

> Thats a dollar well spent Bandit.
> 
> Don you must live in Old tool Heaven. There is not much pickin around Ky. I think the old farmers slam wore out there tools and. variety wasn t to be found. You might find a wore out D-7 around with a $35 price tag.
> 
> - TheTurtleCarpenter


They want 50$ around my parts


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## TheTurtleCarpenter

Yep, and if you ask for there bottom dollar they think a 10% discount will make you happy.


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## summerfi

That Cresson is a peach Don. I'm a little jealous.


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## Johnny7

Take note of the word play, common to manufacturer's of that era.

The saw's medallion includes the letters "I X L"-

which read aloud proclaims "*I Excel*"


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## theoldfart

Bob, jealousy just doesn't quite cover it. How 'bout YOU REALLY SUCK ?. There, now I feel better!
Can't wait for the restore Don.


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## donwilwol

I don't think I'm going to do much more than clean it Kevin. I did that this morning.


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## theoldfart

Looks quite good Don. Will it be a user, inventory, or display piece?


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## donwilwol

As I understand it Kevin, this is a pretty rare and somewhat valuable saw. I think I will display it someplace where it'll just make me smile when I walk by it.


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## theoldfart

I can understand the smile but I'd still want to try it!


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## Brit

That's gorgeous Don and worthy of a place on your wall. Is that a stamp on the plate I can see. Any chance of a close up when you get a minute?


----------



## donwilwol




----------



## Brit

Very nice. Thanks Don.


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## chrisstef

Thats a super nice Cresson ya got there yoda!


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## DLK

So I was cleaning up a Corsair back saw with a nice visible etch with the boat and all, but it disappeared when I decided to do a final polish. I'm a little bummed and quit before finishing the handle. On the other hand its not a very valuable saw. Someone put on it I think a Disston style open handle at least I have never seen one on a Corsair. There are two holes and a slot in the plate. But only one hole is used. There is not a wing nut just a regular saw bolt. I only have (I think) the one saw plate. Shall I post pictures? I don't think its very exciting.


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## summerfi

Of course post pics Don.


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## donwilwol

I honestly never seen a Corsiar Saw .


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## bandit571

Have one in the shop…spelled Corsair. Mine is a 26" long, 8 ppi crosscut. It also has the "Pirate ship" etch. DonK's may have been more of a silk screened etch…mine is a regular etch..

BTW: Is there a site to see which keyhole saw I have? The "Distonian" doesn't appear to list them..


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## DLK

Don W. I am sure you have seen one, Cosair is a saw brand made by Great neck. But just in case:

Here is a before picture of the saw I collected.










Here is a close up that shows (sort of) the etch.










Here is a picture after cleaning the plate. I have not touched the handle.










Here is an internet photo of what the etch would have looked liked if I could have kept it.










I think the etch is kind of cool and would have liked to have kept it.


----------



## revrok

Corsair was Great Neck's upscale brand since they were a budget manufacturer, Keystone was their competitor and the Corsair was supposed to compete with Disston in saws and Stanley Bailey in planes, though as you can see by the handle they really didn't. The steel is great though, even in the budget saws. I have a 22" crosscut panel Great Neck (not Corsair) from the 70's that I use all the time. I also have a #4 Corsair Plane that I use as a scrub… mouth is way too wide for a smoother, otherwise the casting is quite good though. I guess I now have to get them out for photos!



> Don W. I am sure you have seen one, Cosair is a saw brand made by Great neck. But just in case:
> 
> Here is a before picture of the saw I collected.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a close up that shows (sort of) the etch.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a picture after cleaning the plate. I have not touched the handle.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is an internet photo of what the etch would have looked liked if I could have kept it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think the etch is kind of cool and would have liked to have kept it.
> 
> - Combo Prof


----------



## DLK

Thanks for the info Tim.


----------



## DLK

I thought I would clean up this Disston Keystone panel saw next.










Is the two tone orange and black handle typical or original. Should I keep/repaint it or scrape off the paint.










Here is the etch. I wonder if I can keep it and make it more visible.










So I poked around the internet for a while and I see what I have is a 20-inch No. 5 Disston-Keystone Hand Saw. Hence I guess I should repaint the orange and black.


----------



## summerfi

Looks like the color was original Don.
http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/key1.html


----------



## terryR

original, but not necessarily permanent,










http://lumberjocks.com/terryR/blog/28999

nice etch, BTW.


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## DLK

I feel dirty but I decided to repaint the apple wood handle back to its (Halloween) orange and black 
I have cleaned up the plate as far as I am going to go with it and I have kept the etch. 
One of the saw bolts broke, so I will have to find a new one. When I get it finished I'll post the end result.


----------



## bandit571

Mine is a Keystone Challenger K-6-1/2









It does have that Challenger style etch…..26" long….5-1/2 ppi. I sharpened the teeth, now is a nice rip saw….


----------



## terryR

Applewood?
Don, I'm sure it's plain ol' beech for Keystone saws.
the slot was very skewed on mine, thus the new handle.
still, a fine saw!


----------



## kwigly

Big saw / Little saw
A couple of old rusty rejects that I found recently, and have cleaned up a bit.
Big saw is a Spear&Jackson No24, a 28" 5ppi rip saw with a full 8" deep plate
Little saw is Marsh Bros "German steel", 14" 9ppi, with the smallest nib I've ever seen


----------



## DLK

Terry, it looked like applewood to me, but I suppose it could have just been the orange paint staining the beech.

I did wonder why you made a new handle. Raining now so I will have to paint the black tomorrow. Orange is done.


----------



## DLK

Question: Is this Foley Belsaw 1200 Hand Saw Filer worth driving 5 hours to get?

At $175 would it be worth picking up if it is still available First week of August, when I am in Milwaukee?


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## summerfi

I think that's an older model, Don, and the price seems pretty high to me. Does it come with more carriers or just the one that's in the pictures?


----------



## DLK

I have no idea if it has more carriers.. I also have no idea what one should pay for these things. It just came across my radar. What model should I be looking for? Others I see on e-bay are at $600 plus.


----------



## summerfi

I paid $150 for a sharpener, retoother, setter, circle saw grinder, carbide saw grinder, bench mounted circle saw set, and 5 carriers. That was a very good deal. The newest model sharpener is the 387.


----------



## JADobson

Quick question for the group: Does anyone know where one could get .020" 1095 spring steel for a saw plate in Canada. I can order from McMaster Carr, but shipping, duty, and the exchange rate combine to more than double the price of the steel. Difficult to justify that. Every metal supply shop I have called in my city has said "you can't get that here". Thanks.


----------



## DLK

> Quick question for the group: Does anyone know where one could get .020" 1095 spring steel for a saw plate in Canada. I can order from McMaster Carr, but shipping, duty, and the exchange rate combine to more than double the price of the steel. Difficult to justify that. Every metal supply shop I have called in my city has said "you can t get that here". Thanks.
> 
> - JADobson


James: I thought maybe Medallian toolworks of Oakville, Ontario, Canada would be of help, but I can't find a working website or e-mail. There must be other saw makers in Canada

You could try the trick of having it shipped to a U.S. city close to the boarder and drive down to pick it up.
But Saskatoon is 5 hours away from the nearest boarder town Portal, ND.

But mostly I am surprised by "you can't get that here" comments, except well they are "metal shops". 
Did you try in Regina?

Here is an idea go to the mechanical engineering department at the university and ask them where they would buy it.
(Maybe then can get it for you cheaply as part of a larger shipment?)


----------



## DLK

> I paid $150 for a sharpener, retoother, setter, circle saw grinder, carbide saw grinder, bench mounted circle saw set, and 5 carriers. That was a very good deal. The newest model sharpener is the 387.
> 
> - summerfi


Thanks


----------



## JADobson

Thanks for the reply Don. One of the metal shops I called here in Saskatoon suggested a wholesaler out of Winnipeg. I called them and they said they had no idea. I don't know too much about metal but it seems unusual to me that no one in the country carries the stuff. Haven't tried anyone in Regina though. 
I actually work at the U of S and have already called the campus machine shop. They said I could piggyback on their Mcmaster Carr order but I'd prefer not to have to rely on others' generosity if you know what I mean. It does mean though, that I'll be able to get my hands on some if I can't find anything else.


----------



## DLK

James FYI I did a sabbatical at U of R, but only made one trip up to Saskatoon.

Did you try Enco ?
Last time I bought steel I found them cheapest. Maybe cheaper then Mcmaster Carr for you.


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## JADobson

Good old Regina (the city that rhymes with fun as we say).


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## DLK

> Good old Regina (the city that rhymes with fun as we say).
> 
> - JADobson


Yes I remember a Joke on that.


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## summerfi

I order my saw steel from Amazon. I suppose you would have the same shipping, duty , and exchange issues with them though.


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## JADobson

Thanks Bob. Unfortunately amazon.ca is completely different than the US version. Don't think they offer anything.


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## DLK

They're creepy and they're kooky,
Mysterious and spooky,
They're all together ooky,
The D5 Keystone Saw.



















I don't think I liked repainting the handles back to the original. It was not fun.


----------



## summerfi

> They re creepy and they re kooky,
> Mysterious and spooky,
> They re all together ooky,
> The D5 Keystone Saw.
> 
> - Combo Prof


I tend to agree with your description, Don, but I applaud you for keeping the saw true to the original. You did a very nice job on it.


----------



## terryR

Looks good, Don.


----------



## DLK

Well, Bob the handle restore went this way. First I scraped it smooth taped off the black, then primed and spray-painted with krylon pumpkin-orange that my wife had and insisted I use and not go to the store. I did not like the color. Wife left on a two week trip to visit family. I went to the store and found Rustoleum satin Fire-Orange, scraped off all the old orange re-primed and repainted. Waited 24 hours. Taped off the orange and primed and spray painted Rustoleum gloss automotive black. Waited 12 hours. Did not like the gloss. Went over it with 0000 steel wool.

I don't want to paint another. (But I think I have the right paint color now.)


----------



## putty

Good job with the saw Don, I like the Addams family description!!


----------



## DLK

> Good job with the saw Don, I like the Addams family description!!
> 
> - putty


Its a nod to TerryR's blog description "Halloween handle".


----------



## terryR

I'm feelin the pressure to restore my handle. LOL.

although mine looks more of a dodge hemi orange.


----------



## donwilwol

> They re creepy and they re kooky,
> Mysterious and spooky,
> They re all together ooky,
> The D5 Keystone Saw.
> 
> - Combo Prof


And in some strange way I still like it!


----------



## tshiker

I have always wondered if this paint was original?


----------



## DLK

I looked through the disstonian institute. section on back saws and did not see a orange-black saw handle. Maybe Bob can shed some light. However I am certain that this painting you show, must be original.


----------



## realcowtown_eric

james was askin…..
Quick question for the group: Does anyone know where one could get .020" 1095 spring steel for a saw plate in Canada. I can order from McMaster Carr, but shipping, duty, and the exchange rate combine to more than double the price of the steel. Difficult to justify that. Every metal supply shop I have called in my city has said "you can t get that here". Thanks.

welll, I was looking for same to make a frame saw. Same thing….no joy, even amongst my clock maker buddies who order spring steel all the time.

Widest bandsaw stock I could find was 2", although I know there's gotta be sawmill supppliers who sell wider stock, even there drew blanks. Methinks widths wider that 2" in industrial use are gonna be thicker the 0.020 anyway. Couldn't even find a trashed wide bandsaw blade .

Eric in Calgary

Best I found was .020 tempered 6" wide steel shim stock. 8' cost me 60 bucks CDN. Blade is under tension, mounted in two brass blocks with a slop cut by an oscillating saw which was just a tad over .020 in thickness and held in place with spring pins

Cut teeth with a trowel notcher, filed it (reallly I haven't put it to use, , and note that it filed very easily! Methinks that it will need frequent resharpening. I did have a picture somewhere but can't find it.


----------



## DanKrager

I used this saw for the first time since sharpening it. WOW! I think in short bursts this saw is faster than a motorized saw for ripping! Straight and true. I've never used a 3 1/2 TPI rip hand saw but it's a winner! Will be looking to use it again whenever I can.









DanK


----------



## tshiker

Wow Dan that's a beast! Was it 3 1/2 TPI from the factory? I have a 5 1/2 TPI and I'm thinking about getting something a little more aggressive .

Tom.


----------



## summerfi

Here's a nice little backsaw you don't see every day. It's by Shapleigh Hardware of St. Louis, MO. The blade has a fairly elaborate etch that includes S.H. Co., Columbia. It's 12" and 13 ppi xcut.


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

Thats a great find and cleanup Bob. Did you find it in the Wild or off the internet ?


----------



## Brit

That's a beast Dan. I agree, they do eat wood fast.

Bob - Never seen one of those before. Lovely saw.


----------



## DanKrager

Yes, I kept the spacing stamped on the heel under the handle. I was hoping that could be seen in the photo. 
DanK


----------



## summerfi

> Thats a great find and cleanup Bob. Did you find it in the Wild or off the internet ?
> 
> - TheTurtleCarpenter


I picked it up at an estate sale, Turtle.


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

Estate Sales in Ky last about 20 minutes and there done.! Most of the time in the summere they just park and leave their motor running.


----------



## DLK

What is a shingle saw?

I observed a logging saw today with a Keen Kutter medalion. It look like this web image (This not the actual saw!)










But with champion teeth:










I was told it was a shingle saw, but I can't belive it. So could it be a shingle saw?


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

I've never heard of a shingle saw DK maybe someone had a chew in there mouth and were trying to say single.

This is what is sitting on the table, ready for a cleanup. Two Jacksons, one needs a haircut and one needs a bath and his teeth cleaned.










It is a dainty 8" dovetail saw and here it is compared to a 10"


----------



## DLK

My he said "single saw" as in if you display this on your wall it will keep you single.


----------



## summerfi

Man, wish I could find saws with $20 bills attached.


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

Me too, Bob !


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

I'm trying to keep the patina on the handle but I had to grind on the top horn down to bare beech so I took an old oil rag and buffed the light spots on the handle.










After the rub.










Finished product.


----------



## donwilwol

I've got a Jackson similar to the closed handle. Its one of my favorites. I love the last one. That came out great.


----------



## JKMDETAIL

Lookin good Turtle


----------



## JADobson

> james was askin…..
> Quick question for the group: Does anyone know where one could get .020" 1095 spring steel for a saw plate in Canada. I can order from McMaster Carr, but shipping, duty, and the exchange rate combine to more than double the price of the steel. Difficult to justify that. Every metal supply shop I have called in my city has said "you can t get that here". Thanks.
> 
> welll, I was looking for same to make a frame saw. Same thing….no joy, even amongst my clock maker buddies who order spring steel all the time.
> 
> Widest bandsaw stock I could find was 2", although I know there s gotta be sawmill supppliers who sell wider stock, even there drew blanks. Methinks widths wider that 2" in industrial use are gonna be thicker the 0.020 anyway. Couldn t even find a trashed wide bandsaw blade .
> 
> Eric in Calgary
> 
> Best I found was .020 tempered 6" wide steel shim stock. 8 cost me 60 bucks CDN. Blade is under tension, mounted in two brass blocks with a slop cut by an oscillating saw which was just a tad over .020 in thickness and held in place with spring pins
> 
> Cut teeth with a trowel notcher, filed it (reallly I haven t put it to use, , and note that it filed very easily! Methinks that it will need frequent resharpening. I did have a picture somewhere but can t find it.
> 
> - realcowtown_eric


Thanks Eric,
I saw someone online using drywall scrapers for their blade stock. Not much help for you wanting to make a frame saw but I'll keep the group posted on how that goes.


----------



## bandit571

get Eric one of these saws, to build a frame saw with?









Make a frame to fit that 3/4" wide blade..









Usually fairly cheap….


----------



## summerfi

I thought I'd share an experiment I tried this morning, in case someone else may find it useful. In working with old saws with split nuts, you occasionally find one where the slots in the nuts have been filed completely off during the saw making process. This makes it very difficult to remove the nuts if you need to take the handle off. I was working on a saw like this today. I needed to get the handle off to repair a split, and one of the nuts had no slot at all. Unfortunately it was the medallion nut, so drilling it out wasn't an option. Here's what I did.

First I marked a line across the nut with a sharp awl where the slot should be. Then I drilled two small holes along the line on opposite sides of the nut. The holes were not much wider than a slot would be. Then I made a "wrench" by driving two small brads in a piece of hardwood and grinding off the heads so the brads protruded from the wood about 1/8". This picture shows the holes in the nut and my wrench.










By inserting the brads in the holes and turning with finger pressure, the nut came off very easily. If this wasn't the medallion screw, I'd probably just throw it away and use a new screw/nut. Since it is the medallion, and since old saw screws like this usually have oddball size threads, I needed to save the nut if I could. First, I wanted to plug the holes. If I had a brass wire or brad of the correct size, I would have used that. All I had in the proper size was a copper brad, and since this was partly an experiment, I went ahead and used that. I cut two short pieces off the brad, inserted them in the holes, peened them for a friction fit, and then sanded them flush to the nut. I then used a hacksaw to cut a new slot in line with the filled holes, and finished by polishing the nut with fine sandpaper. The picture below shows the final product. Note that the gouges in the nut were put there before I owned the saw. I have another nut that is better and will probably be used, but this was still a worthwhile experiment I believe. If I had filled the holes with brass, they would hardly be detectable.










Other techniques for removing a nut like this include epoxying a hex nut onto the saw nut. I've had mixed results with that in the past. I've also used to small graver tool to "improve" slots that were too shallow to get a grip with a split nut driver. The hole drilling technique adds one more tool to the arsenal of working on old saws.


----------



## ToddJB

Cool, Bob. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## putty

Brilliant bob!


----------



## DanKrager

Clever work, Bob! Well done.

DanK


----------



## donwilwol

Bob, thanks for that. I've seen similar instances of this problem so I've been thinking on it a while. Here was my thought to try on the next saw I could experiment on.take a dremel and cut a slot in the nut, in place, being careful to never cut the wood. Then custom grind a screwdriver with the appropriate curve, since the slot wouldn't be very deep. Hopefully turn the nut off. Then finish making the slot so the nut could be used again.

Almost the same theory as yours, but without the holes to fill. I haven't tried it yet, so like a lot of my theories it could be full of holes, but I'd thought I'd share as well.

Sometimes my best solutions comes from replies telling me how bad my solution really is.


----------



## ToddJB

Don , would that option also cut the screw? I think Bob's thought was to not hurt the screw that was presumably flush with the nut.


----------



## summerfi

Don, I think that is worth a try. The problem might be finding a disk that is small enough diameter to not cut into the wood. And, of course, cutting into the screw tip as Todd pointed out. Please report back after you try it and let us know how it went.

I experienced something with a saw tonight that I've never seen before, and I wonder if anyone else has seen it. I was sharpening an 1800s Tyzack backsaw. Everything seemed normal through shaping and setting the teeth. Then, when I started filing fleam on the teeth, the metal started to delaminate. In other words, think of the saw blade as plywood. When I started filing it, the plys began to separate. In this case there were only two plys, one about 3/4 the thickness of the steel and the other about 1/4. At least 10 teeth on the 14" blade delaminated, and it seemed to be in pockets. When I filed the fleam in the other direction, the plys went back together a bit, but still not normal. It was really weird, and an obvious defect in the 100+ year old steel. These old saws always have something new to teach me.


----------



## summerfi

I just love finding hidden treasures on eBay. By that I mean an item that is really desirable, but remains "hidden" because neither the seller nor other buyers recognize what it is. I recently spied this saw listed with a price of $24.99. The seller described it simply as a vintage Warranted Superior 28" saw. She included a picture of the medallion which showed an eagle with the words Warranted Superior. The saw intrigued me because it looked old and had a handle made in the traditional British pattern. I knew it was either a British saw with an oddball medallion or an early American saw. I hoped it had a name stamp, but did not know for sure. At that price, though, I decided to pass rather than take a chance.

There were no bidders on the saw. I assume buyers were turned off by it being a Warranted Superior. A few days later the seller listed it again for a BIN price of $17.50 with an invitation to make offers. I immediately made an offer of $15, which the seller accepted. The saw arrived today. I opened the package anxiously to see if I could find a name stamp. There it was-J. Flint. Joseph Flint made saws in Rochester, NY from 1848 to 1888. In 1856 he opened a factory in St. Catherines, ON as well. Flint saws are highly collectible. This one will go well with my J. Flint brass backed saw c.1850.










Upon inspecting the saw there are a couple of interesting features. The name stamp simply says J. Flint, Cast Steel. All other examples I've found on the Internet say J. Flint, Rochester, Warranted, and Cast Steel. The medallion has an eagle, but it is different than other eagle medallions I've seen. Most have a shield located over the eagle's breast. This one has the shield over the eagle's right wing and dangling from it's mouth by a rope or chain. I'm wondering if this is unique to Flint saws. Other Flint Medallions I've seen have a standard eagle surrounded by the words J. Flint Rochester, NY while Canadian made Flints have the British lion and unicorn logo surrounded by the words J. Flint Superior. The combination of a simplified name stamp and a Warranted Superior medallion could mean that this is an early J. Flint. Regardless, the saw hasn't traveled far from home in the past 165 years. The seller lives in Brockport, NY, which is a suburb of Rochester.










Well, that was a lot of verbiage about an old saw and probably bored most of you. I find old saws very interesting though, and I can't wait to get this one cleaned up.


----------



## ToddJB

That is a good looking saw, Bob. Hope it cleans up nice.

To clarify, are you saying you think this Flint is old enough that they didn't have their own medallion yet, so they used a Warranted Superior one, or are you saying that you think this may be Flint's medallion and they chose to use the words "Warranted" and "Superior" on their medallion? If the latter, that was a poor marketing choice. Ha.


----------



## summerfi

I'm saying the former, Todd. Flint used the medallions below for most of his saws. Some saw makers, perhaps Flint included, started out with WS medallions and then later developed their own.


----------



## ToddJB

Cool!


----------



## DLK

I used to live in Rochester, N.Y. I did not know about Joseph Flint!


----------



## DanKrager

Nice find, Bob. Chalk this risk taken to the positive side! Looking forward to the cleanup!

DanK


----------



## donwilwol

Nice find Bob


----------



## theoldfart

Great find Bob, I would have gone after it just for the handle alone. I almost never pass on a lambs tongue.


----------



## kwigly

That's a great find Bob, certainly unique in stamp and medallion in my experience.
Of course you sent me rushing to check my Flint saws (mostly St Catharines saws) for these features, but they are all stamped with the factory location, and either have no medallion or the regular Flint medallion.
The 1872 Flint saw catalog refers to "embossed" screws, but no details on wording or logo.
Checking your Saw Medallion Reference Guide shows that The Eagle Saw Co sometimes used the same eagle as in your WS medallion. The Eagle Saw Co reputedly made saws on contract to various retailers, using convict labor at Sing Sing, 1854-1859, so perhaps this saw was made for Flint on contact at Sing Sing


----------



## summerfi

Nice catch, kwigly, on the Eagle Saw medallion. I can't find much on Eagle Saw, but it seems they may have existed in the New York area as well. I would assume the Eagle and Flint WS medallions were cast in the same foundry. I wonder if there were other connections between the companies. (Edit: Just saw your last sentence about Sing Sing, so a connection seems even more likely). I found a picture of an Eagle Saw owned by Mike Stemple that looks very much like my Flint.

Another interesting thing about this medallion is that the arrows are in the eagle's right claws while the olive branch is in the left. This is opposite of most WS medallions and may have some symbolic meaning. The WS medallion that shows the eagle in a crouched position is also like this. I believe this may be a more aggressive, war-like position. Who knew saws could be so complex, even political.


----------



## putty

Very interesting sleuthing! I saw that saw on Ebay, the warranted superior scared me off though. I wonder if those Sing Sing convicts made hacksaws too?


----------



## kwigly

Bob, Mike Stemple has researched Sing Sing sawmaking history, and is knowledgeable on early american saws of all stripes, so it might be worth contacting him about your saw/medallion (use MWTCA members Directory for email)

Putty, I expect regular saw making inmates only graduated to hacksaws shortly before their release !


----------



## chrisstef

I find all of this very interesting ^. Thanks yous guys.


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

Patience pays off ! Maybe the crouched posture and the shield hanging from the mouth sybolized that Flint Saw Works was headed north to Canada.


----------



## DLK

Bob in post 13320 I just noticed that you wrote: The seller lives in Brockport, NY, which is a suburb of Rochester.

Brockport, NY is a village 20 miles west of Rochester and is in the town of Sweden on the west edge of Monroe county. Rochester is the center of Monroe county. When I lived in the area I never considered Brockport one of the Rochester suburbs, however I suppose with how Rochester has been growing I now suppose it could be consider to be one. But I for one have never commuted more then 10 minutes to work so I guess I have a narrow definition of "suburb".

But still fair to say that the saw did not travel far.


----------



## summerfi

Thanks Don. Guess I'm used to western distances where anything closer than 150 miles is considered part of the neighborhood.


----------



## jwmalone

Found a d-8 for 4 bucks guys, etching is all there some slight rust, I want to find an old saw to practice on before I touch the blade. What do you guys think.


----------



## bandit571

made right before H.K. Porter bought out Disston? Say, about 1947-53 era for Disston saws. HKP was after 1955…


----------



## jwmalone

Yea that's what I read, think I can trade it for a decent dovetail saw. On lumber jocks


----------



## onoitsmatt

Picked up a box of saws at auction today for $12. Most were junky newish hack saws but I wanted this one. 10" Jackson with warranted superior medallion.










Teeth are kind of all over the place geometrically. But the handle and blade are in good shape. The spine looks like someone accidentally hit it with a grinder. Theres a divot/rut in the side of it. But not too deep so will still be a great little user saw.


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

I get the most satisfaction from finding the Jewels no one wants to bid on and every so often they come around. On this saw the stamp was pretty much rusted over and the only letters legible were "shaw". Beardshaw started buisness in the mid to late 1820's and I think this one would come in around 1840 as from the stamp and lacking a Medalion. It is a 14" sash saw filed crosscut.

Digging out the letters;

































This is another sash saw 1840's or later with Medalion and a different stamp and the addition of Sheffield.


----------



## donwilwol

Excellent Turtle!


----------



## Brit

Nice saw Turtle and lovely horn repair.


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

Two different saws., The bottom one shows that Beardshaw started using Medallions on their Sash Saws between the 40's & 50's and it also shows that they started including Sheffield in their stamps.

The bottom saw was just used for comparison and the info on it is here: http://huk1.wkfinetools.com/01-BritishSaws/BeardshawJ/tools/14inch-SashSaw02/14inch-SashSaw02-01.asp

A better picture of the handle on mine, notice the smaller splitnut on the rear of the handle.


----------



## ErikF

Turtle, that's a beautiful saw. What are your plans for it…..


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

ErikF, I think this saw deserves preserving without going down to clean metal and wood. I've always went one of two ways by either just wiping down and waxing or clean and make repairs and put into user state. The plate on this saw has quite a bit of rust so I will try to get the heavy stuff off without scratching or taking patina away and do a light clean of the handle without minor repairs.

An odd thing I read about Beardshaw, He had 29 kids, all 10 months apart over a 25 year span.


----------



## jmartel

> An odd thing I read about Beardshaw, He had 29 kids, all 10 months apart over a 25 year span.
> 
> - TheTurtleCarpenter


Well you can't have them 9 months apart. You gotta give your wife a bit of a break sometimes.


----------



## putty

^ cheap labor


----------



## JKMDETAIL

Turtle, Anything said about all kids with the same woman. At some point I think she would put a stop to that.


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

Not that I've read JK, Here is some text that I had saved, read shared note 3 :


----------



## donwilwol

Some interesting reading there Turtle.


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

I went easy on the Beardshaw and tried my hand at not over cleaning and not making repairs on the handle. My user side fought me all the way thru the process but the saw had issues that had to be adressed. The spine had a good wave in it and the handle had a split thru the center coming from the blade line in the slot. Some older saws like this you just oil or lindseed and hang up on the wall to be looked at, but this one begged to be given a second chance.

I dismantled this one down to the steel back and scraped all the rust off, staying away from sandpaper to leave as much patina as possible but getting rid of all the heavy rust. The handle was missing a small peice of the lambs tongue and a peice off the side of the bottom horn, I left those as they were. I then took toothpaste and polished all the grime off the handle, then a wipe down of turpentine. After it was clean I french polished with Shelac and then waxed.

Before and After, There is still a part of me that wants to clean the plate of stains, make repair to handle and resharpen to get it back as a user.


----------



## donwilwol

Looks good turtle. I've found not putting everything back to user ability has gotten easier for me. I think of it as being a historian.

I broke one of the rods on the Metallic Plane Co plane just cleaning it. I wanted so bad to try the plane out. I sent the rod to a machinist and he fixed the rod, but he told me the metal in the rods where so bad, they would break again in use. So I had him make me a new set of rods. Then I thought, "what if the metal in the plane is as bad"? It won't ever plow again in my keep. Its job now is as historical evidence and viewing pleasures.

Maybe not directly related to your saw, but just a point that circumstances prove not every tool needs to be a user to have use.


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

I'll just have to turn my attention to something else, ;>{


----------



## DLK

Turtle. How are you getting such good pictures? What are doing for lighting?


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

Don K, ipad mini and flo-ressents.


----------



## donwilwol

I picked up a Groves panel saw today. Pictures to come. In pretty decent shape.


----------



## Brit

That's a lovely saw Turtle and you did it proud.


----------



## theoldfart

I'm looking for some dating info on this saw









The stamp and split nuts make me think it's before the 1870's



















Any thoughts from the peanut gallery?


----------



## CL810

1840-1864. 1840 split nuts arrived and in 1865 "& Son" showed up.


----------



## donwilwol

Google doesn't seem to know, so I have to assume this saw is extremely rare and valuable. Hey, I can dream!

W. Hargreaves sheffield


----------



## donwilwol

Some information, http://www.backsaw.net/forum/index.php?threads/wm-hargreaves-co.168/


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

Simon Barley list Hargreaves & Smith as a type 1 maker in his 2009 list.

http://taths.org.uk/tools-trades/articles/50-when-was-a-sawmaker-not-a-sawmaker


----------



## DLK

I think I could use a backsaw filled cross cut for cutting the sides of dados say about 15 inches with a narrow plate say 1 or 2 inches.

Or another scheme for doing this operation. Of course had I planed ahead I would have used the table saw, but plans changed and I am retro fitting in shelving. (I'm using my miter box saw now.)

Are such saws called sash saws?


----------



## bandit571

Might check out a Stair Saw, as that is what they were designed to do….cut dados for stair treads.


----------



## DLK

Thanks bandit. I will look for one. I guess one buys a kit from TGIAG. I don't see a vintage/antique one for sale.


----------



## Tim457

Stair saw like Bandit said or you can do the Paul Sellers method he shows in his videos where he marks a line with a knife then chisels in then chisel down, etc. I would think the saw would be faster for a longer dado like that. For that matter though any back saw can work.


----------



## DLK

Yes. I was an idiot. I used my Tyzack Tennon saw to cut all the dados and dovetails instead of my nicely sharpened Spear and Jackson dovetail saw. Switching to a sharp saw made all the difference and I have finished the 6 dados.
Removed the centers with chisel, and router plane and sweat. Then cleaned them up with a Stanley 79 and more sweat. The cool morning has turned in to a hot and humid afternoon. I'm taking a rest now and will fine tune the cabinet later.


----------



## donwilwol

A Sharp saw is just a file and saw vise away Don.


----------



## DLK

> A Sharp saw is just a file and saw vise away Don.
> 
> - Don W


I have all the files, saw vices, and saw sets too. Just need to take the time and learn to sharpen.


----------



## ColonelTravis

Been wanting a keyhole saw and found this Atkins at an estate sale. $4. Is there a way to date this? Is the red paint original? There's a faint etch but it's really hard to read I think it just says "Atkins, Indianapolis" and below "Made in the USA"? Not sure.

Thanks.


----------



## Brit

I can't tell you when they started making them, but I can tell you that they were in their 1931 catalogue. The red paint isn't original.


----------



## Bertha

This thread has gotten insane! It made me really happy to see all the posts but I won't even try to read them all. I don't have much to add other than trying to switch from pullsaws to Western saws. Not as bad a transition than I imagined. Take care all!


----------



## DLK

Found today :











Atkins Docking Saw, Silver Steel. The 590. 6 ppi.











Bottom saw I got for the medallion and saw handle. Medallion reads: Atkins and Co. Indianapolis. AAA.
Pat. Dec 27, 1887.










I don't know anything about these saws. Do they have value?


----------



## Johnny7

You will find that patent date (Dec 27, 1887) on the medallion of several saw-makers

It is for the Glover's patent saw screws. [US Patent: 375,350]


----------



## DLK

> You will find that patent date (Dec 27, 1887) on the medallion of several saw-makers
> 
> It is for the Glover s patent saw screws. [US Patent: 375,350]
> 
> - Johnny7


Yup. Same medallian as what ColonelTravis shows 7 posts ago. (Post 13370.)


----------



## donwilwol

I found this interesting


----------



## terryR

^excellent article! Thanks!

"Saw filing is not for the meek"


----------



## Newbie20

Awesome saw Brit


----------



## Newbie20

For 4 dollars that's a steal Travis


----------



## bandit571

Spent $3 each for these two things…









A Panel saw by Disston , Looks like a 11ppi…









20" long, straight back. Might take awhile to clean up…..as for that other saw









26" long, straight back, 9ppi. Has a strange medallion, though..









That is a green background around the eagle. Wide rim is stamped "Better Merchandise" but…this is NOT a bolt. There isn't any hole through the handle for it. Handle is also an open top one. As is the Disston Panel saw. 
Might take a day or three to restore these two….


----------



## duckmilk

Don W, that article is both humorous and informative. I have sharpened one of those saws and it was an experience.


----------



## onoitsmatt

Enjoyed tgat article too. Northern Arizona University is just up the road. May have to try to get up there for the collegiate timbersports next year.


----------



## duckmilk

Go for it Matt, and take lots of pictures


----------



## donwilwol

Thanks. I'm trying to dig up more information on that type of tools and processes. There is not much on the web about it.


----------



## bandit571

Got one out of two done today…









It is stamped as a 10 ppi. 20" long. Made right before HK Porter bought out Disston in the 1950s.

Teeth will need some sharpening. One bolt stripped out, had a spare, might just change the other two. 









One coat of Witch's Brew in soaked into the wood. 
Looked like Fido had gnawed on the handle a bit…..Sanded it down a bit. Might get the other saw worked on tomorrow…will need to find the right file to sharpen these two saws up.


----------



## summerfi

I came across this saw on ebay. Since I've never seen anything like it before, I thought I'd post it here as a curiosity. It is a 1924 patent Blount's Southern Beauty saw handle that applies oil to the saw plate. There appears to be an oil reservoir in the grip area and a trigger to squirt oil. I'm not sure why you would want to squirt oil on a properly sharpened and set saw blade, but if you do, you can get this one for a BIN price of $950.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Extremely-rare-1924-Southern-Beauty-hand-saw-saw-oiler-/222224799836?hash=item33bda1585c:g:e~QAAOSwIgNXqsaf


----------



## donwilwol

Interesting saw Bob!!


----------



## DanKrager

What happens when you pull the trigger or press the button?

Really fantastical!

DanK


----------



## DLK

I think as long as the "oil tank" is more then half full. When the trigger (29) is pulled, the stopper (23) is lifted and oil will flow out of hole (21). Seems to me work the same as the way oil is added to a running chainsaw teeth..


----------



## DanKrager

Oil is messy. Could it be wax? Now there's an idea for saw mods…self lubricating saws…. hmmmm.

DanK


----------



## Brit

By the look of the plate, the owner did use the oil much. I remember when I was a boy, my granddad told me that if you put oil on the plate a saw would cut better. He was probably right, but then how do you get the oil off the bit of wood you're cutting.


----------



## DLK

Depends on the oil. Paul Sellers lubricates with light machine oil for example.


----------



## bandit571

I hear the old time Loggers would use "Coal Oil" aka Kerosene on their saws. Of course, they were cutting wet wood..


----------



## Tim457

Isn't kerosene supposed to keep pitch build up from slowing the saw down when sawing pine and such? I saw a video where the US Forest Service now uses a limonene or something like that citrus based solvent for cutting the pitch.


----------



## CO_Goose

Picked up a backsaw this weekend and need a little help on the history. First the pictures:










It's a nice 14" backsaw that is cut to 12 TPI. The etch appears to be there with a little surface rust that I hope I can get rid of and keep the Etch.










The Bay State Saw Works MFG. CO, Fitchburg MASS U.S.A. Spring Steel, Trade Mark,Warranted No (8 or 9)
Here is the Medallion










It has the usual paint splatters but the handle is solid and the blade appears to be in good condition, except for the rust.

I am looking for a good used backsaw, would this be a good one to fix up to use, or is it one of those highly valued super rare ones? I can't seem to find much on Bay State (most people don't see the "S" and think it is "Tate Saw Works" ) other than they were bought by Simmons in 1870. 
Any help would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## donwilwol

I can't help on a value, but that's a cool saw!!


----------



## chrisstef

Id say that would be a fine user with some good history to it goose. Cleaner er up, sharpen her up and get to makin some tenons! Good find


----------



## theoldfart

Bay State Saw I think was made by Simonds.


----------



## summerfi

Correct, it was a secondary brand of Simonds, similar to Jackson being a secondary brand of Disston.


----------



## Tim457

I was going to say that medallion sure looks like a Simonds. Should be a solid saw Goose. Is the plate and spine straight?


----------



## CO_Goose

Yes, the plate and spline are straight, and cuts pretty well. 
Since it was the "second line", which I assume means the cheaper model, what was "cheaper" about it?


----------



## summerfi

"Cheaper" doesn't necessarily mean lower quality. Some saw makers used multiple brands as a strategy to gain more of the market share. However, some second quality brands used a lower quality steel and simplified design that was easier and cheaper to make. On your Bay State, for example, there may not be a name stamp on the spine (even though there is a very nice etch on the plate) and the handle has a simpler design that was quicker to make with machines.


----------



## JADobson

Update for any Canadians looking for a source of 1095 spring steel:

http://www.traverscanada.com/blue-tempered-spring-steel-shim-stock/p/418918/#thickness=.020%22

Its expensive, but there it is.


----------



## summerfi

Definitely expensive compared to US prices.


----------



## JADobson

Yeah, I think even with the exchange rate, duty, and tariffs it's still cheaper to order from the US.


----------



## cavalier

Neat collection of old saws. Impressive.
Cavalier


----------



## BillWhite

I have 2 Bay State saws. One cross cut w/ nib and apple wood tote, and one 8" dovetail with beech tote ( bought it from Aiden 1211 aka. Robert Porter. Both are good saws made by Simonds.
Your should make a great user, or just send it to me to add to my collection. Yeah, right!
Bill


----------



## summerfi

W. Tyzack Sons & Turner (top) and J.G. Graves (bottom).

*Before*


















*After*


----------



## BillWhite

Where do ya buy the split nut saw bolts?
The ones on my Butcher are showin' some age.
Bill


----------



## summerfi

Here are a couple sources, Bill.
http://www.blackburntools.com/new-tools/new-saws-and-related/saw-bolts/index.html
http://tgiag.com/sawnuts.html


----------



## theoldfart

As usual, beautiful work Bob.


----------



## ToddJB

Those are lookers, Bob!


----------



## SamuelP

Fantastic job Bob!
I have been creeping around your projects and blogs for a while. Tons of inspiration for me. 
Do you know of a source for raised saw bolts?


----------



## summerfi

Thanks all.
Sam - need more info on what you are calling raised saw bolts. Is that the same as what many people call cone nuts?


----------



## putty

Nice work Bob…but then its expected from you!!!
Are you back from fighting fires?


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

Good to see that you are getting in some shop time Bob. Those two look Great !


----------



## DLK

Nice work Bob. Makes me want to make a new handle for the Tyzack you sold me.


----------



## SamuelP

I will get pictures tomorrow. Thanks.


----------



## summerfi

> Nice work Bob…but then its expected from you!!!
> Are you back from fighting fires?
> 
> - putty


Yes, putty, at least for the present time.


----------



## terryR

Beautiful work, Bob!

Blackburn Tools also has the cone nuts.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Nicest saw for cutting off a handrail post…. in the history of the world. Ever.


----------



## summerfi

Wow Red!


----------



## terryR

^meaning: OMG, That's what 2nd tier saws are for! 
LOL!


----------



## summerfi

Nah, that's nice clean wood. Proud to see my saw in action. Now if it had concrete smeared on it and a few nails sticking out…...


----------



## theoldfart

Still not sure I'd bring my Summerfields out to play like that! I like them too much and they do get used a lot.


----------



## bandit571

Kind of drifted below the line? Or was that the idea to cut below it?

Dollar a piece this morning…...best of the lot, they had taped three together, asked $5…got them for $3









Medallions say these are all Atkins saws…..


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

I think Red just stuck it in the slot to make us Sigh !


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Hehe. Since the cut was angle, sideways….I struggled with a floppy hand saw. Grabbed one with a back…cut like butter.

Like Bob said, it's clean and dry cedar…..or I never would have.

See how much the coco has darkened;-)


----------



## Brit

Nice saws Bob. How would you like to sharpen this one? LOL.


----------



## DanKrager

Does that humongous blade have teeth on both edges? Cuts coming and going?

DanK


----------



## SamuelP

Summerfi

Here is the saw handle with the missing nuts. I have not found the make and it has been is storage for a while so they are actually dome shaped. Going through all of my saws to see which ones I will keep.


----------



## johnstoneb

Dan K
The bandsaw blades in most if not all sawmills cut coming and going. When mills first converted from circular to band I believe the saw just had teeth on one side. Teeth on both sides immediately double production.


----------



## Tim457

Makes sense, they have to move the log back and forth either way. That is a crazy blade.


----------



## TheFridge

That's huge. I watched a promo video of a bandsaw mill company that had a double sided blade on their machine but it was 1/2 the size if that and that machine ripped.


----------



## bandit571

Do you think they used Carter's Guide blocks with it?


----------



## DLK

> Going through all of my saws to see which ones I will keep.
> 
> - SamuelP


This motivates a good question. Which (types) of saws do you actual use and for what purpose?


----------



## SamuelP

Don,

Not the easiest question. I have acquired and used multiple saws over the past few years. Generally I use what I have and what is best suited for the job at hand.
Recently I have not used them too much. I have moved 2 times in the past 2 years for my work and have not had good access to my tools or a work space. I am in the middle of downsizing and getting rid of as much as I can to make what I do have more accessible. My next project (a few months away) would be a simple tool box to store a bulk of the tools I have selected.


----------



## summerfi

> Summerfi
> 
> Here is the saw handle with the missing nuts. I have not found the make and it has been is storage for a while so they are actually dome shaped. Going through all of my saws to see which ones I will keep.
> 
> - SamuelP


Sam - I'm not aware of a modern source for that type of domed saw screw. You may have to fabricate something, so perhaps the common type of saw screw would fit. These screws are always a possibility too.


----------



## terryR

Hard to see in this photo, but the truncated dome nut could be rounded over to resemble the nuts in question.










came from blackburn.

or easy to fabricate from brass. steel would be a challenge.


----------



## terryR

My current dilemma/project.

14" Geo Blake backsaw with a busted lamb's tongue on the handle, completely worn out hardware, twisted plate, and some rust issues that were hidden from view for years.



















Thinking of a new handle, new hardware, and send the rest to Bob for fixin'. LOL!


----------



## DLK

I could be wrong but I think this saw was incorrectly sharpened.


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

That London pattern handle screams 1850 or older to me. Terry, I think it boils down to whether you want it as a user or if you want to clean and derail the rust issue and keep it as a collector. Show a close up of the stamp as I dont find Geo Blake in BSSM.


----------



## terryR

So far, only found a sentence on backsaw.net about Geo Blake, that dates the saw to 1816-1820! I hope that is correct. The only photo i've seen resembles this saw exactly (except for the damage), so I hope this guy is really 200 years old. 

Any info you guys dig up is greatly appreciated, of course!

I'm hoping the saw will become an occasional user. Straight and sharp, but too valuable to use except for special projects. Or…when my Bob Saws are dull. LOL.

edit, only a crappy photo of the stamp,


----------



## DonBroussard

Don K-I've never seen a reverse breasted saw either!


----------



## DLK

^ It must be very rare…. you should buy it!


----------



## summerfi

Terry, you should post that saw on backsaw.net and see what the expert Brits have to say about it. I have no doubt they would be very interested.


----------



## bandit571

Pruning saw?


----------



## DLK

I had not thought that.


----------



## terryR

Bob, I'd have to join first…
Could be worth the effort?


----------



## summerfi

Yep, worth it. Just don't mention you're thinking about repairs. They don't like that. LOL


----------



## terryR

Yep, I got that vibe from the little bit of reading so far. 

Actually, it would be super friggin' easy to just clean the saw, straighten the bends, and leave it alone as a piece of British history. Maybe I'm being selfish to think i should "correct" the saw?


----------



## theoldfart

I think Simon(The British Saw Bloke) would be all over that saw Terry, the site is well worth joining.


----------



## summerfi

You may be right Terry. That seems to be a pretty rare saw, so leaving it as found is a reasonable option. User backsaws are a dime a dozen (well not that cheap, but you get the point). When I get a truly old saw, I like to set it aside for awhile and think about what I should do with it. That saw's been around for a long time, so there's no reason to make a quick decision.

P.S. - I meant to mention earlier but forgot. In looking at the pictures, the plate has multiple screw holes, indicating it may have had the handle replaced at some point. If so, it must have been a long time ago.


----------



## summerfi

The fellow who does my laser etching sent me this picture. It's marked Henry Disston & Sons, Philadelphia USA. Anyone know what this was used for?


----------



## putty

Maybe to gut a bird…to scrape out the gunk along the spine?


----------



## summerfi

I thought it might be some kind of game knife/saw too. BTW the gunk along the spine is the kidneys.


----------



## putty

Excuse me for my ignorance of a birds anatomy Bob!! Lol


----------



## summerfi

And now we know. Found this in the 1942 Disston catalog.


----------



## summerfi

Oh, and putty, don't fret. Gunk is a technical enough word for most people. ;-)


----------



## donwilwol

> And now we know. Found this in the 1942 Disston catalog.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - summerfi


Isn't that something!!


----------



## bandit571

Question for the experts here: The recent bundle of saws from over the weekend? While two are your run of the mill Disston/ HK Porter crosscuts, the third one is a little different.

Hardware seems almost like AL. of some sort. Blade is shined up now, no etch. Medallion has "ATKINS" right across the middle, with "made" above it, and "in U S A" below it. handle seems to have been factory painted a yellowish/tan. The area where you'd grip the handle has a roughness to it. Feels like Atkins pressed a grip pattern into the handle. Handle is an open top. So are both of the Disstons. Atkins and one of the Disston has hanger holes drilled in the toe.

Will get a few photos tomorrow IF you want. Atkins saw has a lot more set than the disstons, as well. Looks like a different tooth count, too. Need to go back and count some teeth. They do need sharpened, though.

Not sure when the Atkins saw was made…..


----------



## terryR

Hmmm, a No.1 Disston Saw? that's different.

Bob, I have decided to NOT make a decision on that Blake! LOL! It was easy to come to same conclusion that you did…no reason to rush into this project. Whether it becomes a user, collector, re-seller, or whatever, I'm glad I found the rust, and plan to stop that immediately! Other plans can wait until appropriate.

The 2nd set of holes in the saw's plate…very intriquing.

FWIW, backsaw.net won't have me. LOL. I must have bummed up the trivia question too many times during signup, so no confirmation email has been sent to me. Despite multiple requests for one. I'm too stupid, too old, too ugly, too slow….waaaaahhhhhhh! (crying sound)


----------



## summerfi

Terry, that's pretty bad when you get rejected by backsaw.net. It must have something to do with Alabama. ;-)


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

Terry, BSNet are a little slow and Old like us, they should get back to you soon. As far as the holes go lt looks like to me that being only one rear hole that maybe the owner had reused it as a pivot, and swung the handle up or down to adjust the hang angle or maybe even the sawmaker did. I think most collectors wince about messing with the old split nuts as sometimes they will snap but I think its always best to check for rust.









I found some bad rust on my old Tyzack that I am cleaning and resharpening.


----------



## onoitsmatt

Just wanted to say thanks to Bob for an awesome saw. This arrived last week. His restoration work is really outstanding! I love this saw:


----------



## terryR

I agree, TTC. I won't hesitate to disassemble saws from now on as soon as I get them to make sure. I don't feel bad about replacing the brass hardware at all on these 125+ year old tools. I'll keep the old stuff, but it's easy to replicate nuts, and even tarnish them.

And, for the record, I'm NOT from Alabama…I just live here. LOL.


----------



## summerfi

Glad you like the Shapleigh, Matt! I hope it serves you well for a very long time.


----------



## Brit

> I agree, TTC. I won t hesitate to disassemble saws from now on as soon as I get them to make sure. I don t feel bad about replacing the brass hardware at all on these 125+ year old tools. I ll keep the old stuff, but it s easy to replicate nuts, and even tarnish them.
> 
> And, for the record, I m NOT from Alabama…I just live here. LOL.
> 
> - terryR


*Darn tootin'!*


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

That is a Sweet looking saw Matt, enjoy and Im glad another one of Bobs foster saws has found a good home.

Terry, your not from *Kentucky* are ya . ;>}


----------



## bandit571

This may not be as sexy as those old saws, but









It has an ATKINS medallion, has 9ppi open top handle. The handle has a "checkered" grip embossed on both sides. Straight back. Have not found an etch. 









The "grip"..

















It isn't the "AAA" medallion, more of a "ATKINS" made in USA medallion….compared to a Disston..

That might be a Keystone "Townsman"...









Same age group?


----------



## ErikF

> The fellow who does my laser etching sent me this picture. It s marked Henry Disston & Sons, Philadelphia USA. Anyone know what this was used for?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - summerfi


Pretty sure it was worn as a sign of power in certain east African tribes.


----------



## donwilwol

Whatcha all know about this one?


----------



## bandit571

There are saws…









then there are bigger saws..









Well this was actually the "Baby" saw….the large one was leaning against the wagon in the background









Power is from the PTO on that Farmall tractor back there….


----------



## TheFridge

How much they want for the butcher don?


----------



## donwilwol

The butcher came home with me.


----------



## BillWhite

I have the baby brother. 12" closed tote. 11tpi, files rip, fine set.
Bill


----------



## Brit

Lovely saw Don. This might help.

http://huk1.wkfinetools.com/02-Toolmakers/Butcher/history/hReview/02-History-Butcher.asp


----------



## donwilwol

Thanks Andy.


----------



## chrisstef

Ive got a butcher tenon saw that ill have to watch up the stamp againt. It looks the same but im not 100%. Id love a photocopy of whats left of the original handle. Mine came with a rough replacement. How long is that yoda? 16+?

Edit - just read bills post. You too!! A photocopy would be hoss!


----------



## donwilwol

Steff, it's a 12" plate


----------



## chrisstef

Thanks Yoda! Geez, 12", that thing looked like a monster in the pic. I'm gonna try that trick at home tonight. All about the background I assume.


----------



## donwilwol

perception is perception, and stroke is still stroke.


----------



## SamuelP

Could this wayward kerf be caused by a bent blade?


----------



## TheFridge

My guess would be an uneven set maybe combined with technique.


----------



## Aidan1211

Don they were made by most of the major saw mfgs and were advertised as being reinforced. I've got one thats call a Disston "clipper". Not super common but they are around and they look hella good after restorations.


> If you look at Mads blog some of his saws have a metal plate on the side of the handle. Has anyone in the states seen this? Know any history?
> 
> - Don W


----------



## Aidan1211

Yes Sir Mr Fridge!

Technique poor or uneven tooth set and yes a kinked plate will cause you some problems too.



> My guess would be an uneven set maybe combined with technique.
> 
> - TheFridge


----------



## SamuelP

That answers my question. My other saws cut fine and this one has little to no set. Must be the kink in the plate.

Thanks.


----------



## Arts_and_Crafts_DIY

found a gorgeous 10" dovetail saw for 20GBP and restored it.


















I think it is a tyzack saw because of the elephant trademark and Frederick Willy was the Warehouse selling it ? 
My guess is that the saw is from around 1910, what do you think?

Working on a detailed blog entry about the process, will post link once it is done.


----------



## kwigly

Nice Frederick Willey labelled saw (made for him by Tyzack, as you guessed), 1880s-1890s
some info here http://www.backsaw.net/forum/index.php?threads/frederick-willey.118/


----------



## putty

That is a beauty T&C


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

Beautiful restore T&C, I would say the handle shape would predate it 1900's


----------



## DylanC

Saw this the other day…I'm guessing it's a Cresson?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/W-CRESSOID-PHILA-DA-/152232367950?hash=item2371c1974e:g:LMMAAOSw8oFXzz62&rmvSB=true##


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

It is Dylan and in pretty good shape. ! Some info from WKfinetools: http://hus-saws1.wkfinetools.com/CressonW/history/cressonHist-01.asp


----------



## Brit

> found a gorgeous 10" dovetail saw for 20GBP and restored it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think it is a tyzack saw because of the elephant trademark and Frederick Willy was the Warehouse selling it ?
> My guess is that the saw is from around 1910, what do you think?
> 
> Working on a detailed blog entry about the process, will post link once it is done.
> 
> - ToolsAndCraft


Lovely restoration sir.

Hard to say exactly when your saw was made because they were definitely making that model back in the 1880s and into the 1920s. It is a No.13B (B for brass back). Beech handle with polished edges and a cast steel plate. They made a London Spring Steel version of it too which was called the No.A13.


----------



## Arts_and_Crafts_DIY

Thank you for nice words and and good information 

I have made a more detailed blog entry now on restoring the saw, check it out for more details and pretty pictures!
https://wordpress.com/read/feeds/53349129/posts/1151868974


----------



## ToddJB

That link leads to a login page for me.


----------



## Arts_and_Crafts_DIY

https://artsandcraftsdiy.wordpress.com/2016/09/13/restoring-a-tyzack-turner-dovetail-saw/

here is the fixed link


----------



## summerfi

Here's a 16" Slack Sellars & Grayson I just finished restoring for a client.




























And just or fun here's a family pic I took this morning. Top to bottom:
20" Beckett, 16" Slack Sellars & Grayson, 14" J. Flint, 12" Drabble & Sanderson, 10" Disston & Sons, 10" Wheeler Madden & Clemson, 8" Summerfield.


----------



## SamuelP

Great Work!


----------



## donwilwol

Very nice Bob


----------



## putty

Nice Bob, Is that faimily pic all for the same client?

Edit: Just noticed all brass backed!


----------



## putty

Hey Bob, I may be coming to Missoula this spring for my daughters regional gymnastic meet, Can I hire you for half a day for sharpening lessons?


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

Looks more like a beauty pagent than a family pic.! I think we need individual looks into each of their Charecter and Attributes and what State they represent. I think we should Judge them all the same regardless of how tall they are. They all have pretty teeth, short noses and curves in all the right places. Individual photos Please.


----------



## summerfi

Putty, no, they're all mine except for the Slack Sellars. I don't have a 16" brass back, so I thought I'd take a group pic while I had the chance. That would be cool if you can stop by this Spring. My sharpening lessons are free. It would be a treat if you can make it.

Ha, Turtle, that's funny. You guys have seen pics of all these before. Nothing new here, just a pic of them all together. As for State, there are 4 Americans, 2 Brits, and 1 Canadian in the pic.


----------



## bandit571

Happen to stop at Aldi's the other day…..spent $7 and change…









Address is from Mulheim an der Ruhr. Germany. In spanish on the package is Made in China….?









Drywall saw, backsaw, crosscut saw…well, I hid the drywall saw, for now, found a job the backsaw could do..









As that GEM needed a dedicated backsaw. plate length is under 12".
Crosscut saw? 









Cuts fast, and straight. I think Sellers would even like it. I'll save for things rough cutting 4×4s, and maybe building a deck. Saves the wear & tear on my better saws.

Teeth are those Impulse hardened things…meh. Hope they last the 3 year warranty….
I mean, for $7 and change, and save them for the "dirty work" instead of the good saws? Might be worth the small expense.


----------



## ColonelTravis

Interesting, Bandit. I should check that out, what the heck. I got the Aldi chisels after reading/hearing Sellers talk about them so much, seriously they're pretty good.


----------



## tshiker

Hey Bob, Thanks for posting the family photo! I like seeing the hang angles change with the length of the saw!

Tom.


----------



## ColonelTravis

Pretty simple restore but it was nice to spruce up this Atkins I found at an estate sale for $4.


----------



## PAchemist

I picked up this hand saw at an estate sale today. After cleaning off the blade somewhat, there is an etch of a "C90" The medallion is a typical "Warranted Superior" with an eagle. Anyone see anything like this before?


----------



## PAchemist

... for $4


----------



## donwilwol

Sweet. Hopefully someone has some info!


----------



## summerfi

The handle says Simonds to me. I think it may be a toned down version of the Simonds No. 5 made for a hardware company or other second party retailer.


----------



## bandit571

Picked three tools this morning, for a $5 bill..









Saw had a "AAA"medallion…









Failed to find any etch, other than a "7" 









This is after a bit of clean up. Atkins skew back, open top handled, 7 ppi crosscut saw. I did at least clock the bolts..









Not sure what model number it is. Just needs a good sharpening, now.









26" long. The tape measure is a Powerlock 25' Stanley. Still working on the 1" wide chisel…









Not too bad a morning?


----------



## theoldfart

Found a Disston 12 this morning. Cone nuts and pretty good shape maybe circa 1860-1870 ish









Readable etch









Impressive wheat carved handle


----------



## bandit571

went back to that sale, mainly to take a few pictures…..found this thing sitting under a stairway









And a grinder of some sort..









Not sure IF everything was still there, and I doubt IF the dollar bill in my pocket would have been much of an offer….

Oh well…


----------



## DanKrager

That grinder, Bandit, is to die for. The cup wheel and table combo make it a snap to sharpen planer and jointer blades. No doubt there's some widgets in the box underneath that hold plane and chisel blades. Flat grind.
It might be a real bonified "you suck" deal because those can be very pricey.

DanK


----------



## bandit571

I might go back out there tomorrow and see IF they intend to sell again. I'm about a week away from my SSI check, kind of short this weekend. Why are all the good sales like that?

Strange part….did NOT see a single handplane, anywhere….


----------



## summerfi

Kevin, nice find on that No. 12 with cone nuts. In good shape those are worth a couple hundred bucks. Since the etch says "Sons", it is a 1871 or later, but not much later.


----------



## summerfi

I finally got my J. Flint handsaw cleaned up. It has a lot more pitting than I was hoping, but it's still a neat old saw. The handle is in amazing shape for a saw this old. You can sure see the British influence in this saw. Joseph Flint was born in England, but moved to New York as a young man where he started his saw factory in 1844. The medallion on this saw is a bit of a curiosity, as it is a eagle Warranted Superior medallion. It could mean this is an early J. Flint since I see no indication it is a replacement. The normal J. Flint medallion is an eagle, but with the words J. Flint Rochester NY.

*Before*









*After*


----------



## theoldfart

Bob, the handle doesn't match the wear on the plate. Wonder what happened.


----------



## summerfi

The plate is near full width, so I don't think the saw was used much. Someone unfortunately must have left it in a wet place, where it stayed for a long time. The plate rusted, but the handle was protected by lack of use. I bought the saw less than 20 miles from where it was made.


----------



## Tim457

That handle is in impressively good shape, another beautiful restore. I think you're right, it just sat and rusted for a long time. At least it was a stamp instead of an etch and it's still there.


----------



## terryR

Nice job on that plate, Bob.
That saw looks fine for being 160+ years old!


----------



## JADobson

Bob, your restorations are always a treat. Looks fantastic.


----------



## theoldfart

Picked up another big saw vise today









Jaws are 25 1/2" across.


----------



## Brit

Nice saws chaps. I especially like the handle on that Flint.

That's a great saw vise Kev.


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

*Summerfield*, can I borrow your magic wand !

*Terry*, Ill give you two clock radios, $8 and your money back for that Disston 12

*Old Fart*, I like your vise but can't take my eyes off your *Chest* ;>}


----------



## theoldfart

Jeff, I built that a few years ago. It's in my projects


----------



## summerfi

I thought you guys would like to see my newest toy. Up until now I've used a pneumatic or electric tool with a thin cutoff wheel to cut out saw plates. That worked okay, but was kind of slow and had the risk of overheating the steel if you weren't careful. It was also noisy. My new plate sheer is a lot quicker and eliminates the other issues. I've cut out about 10 plates so far in steel up to .028" and it cuts like butter and doesn't bend the steel. The hardest part is getting the steel lined up perfectly to your line because if you begin to stray off a line while cutting, it's difficult to correct. I think it's going to be a useful addition to my shop.


----------



## donwilwol

Nice Bob. I suppose it's faster as well.


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

Thats great Bob, maybe you could make a side table with a fence to get it to width and line it up.


----------



## ToddJB

Nice addition, Bob. 36" sheet breaks come up pretty often here on Craigslist. That would make cutting plates a matter of seconds.


----------



## realcowtown_eric

came across this in Calgary
http://www.kijiji.ca/v-power-tool/calgary/foley-automatic-saw-filer-model-61/1206542542?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true

In us$ Thats probably close to 800


----------



## summerfi

I see them occasionally here too Todd, but like most tools here, they want a fortune for them. What do they go for down there?

That's a good idea that I'll give some thought to Turtle.


----------



## ToddJB

Just like anything, Bob, they range from $200 to $36,000.


----------



## duckmilk

I had the same idea as Turtle. Make a table for it with infeed/outfeed wings flush to the cutting surface, add a fence, just like you would for an electric chop saw. How wide a plate will it cut?


----------



## summerfi

It will cut 8" Duck. When you need to go wider you have to take another bite.


----------



## bandit571

Walked away from this one..









and the grinder…









Even though both were a "Make an offer" I didn't have the room for them. I doubt IF they would have taken the $6 I had that day…all I got was a Atkins skew back 7ppi crosscut saw, that MIGHT have seen the filer….









And, I already had a scrollsaw….


----------



## Jhwill

When I bought this saw I knew it needed to be brought back to be a user. I had a walnut piece that was save from the fire wood pile. The pattern was made from what was left from the broken handle and completed from a photo in this forum. I have a piece of apple that I will use to repair the original handle. My questions are can the joint be made stronger by forming a tongue and groove and what is the best type of glue to use?


----------



## Tim457

Walnut firewood, say it ain't so. Nice job saving it and making a handle. Yes in general, more glue surface means a stronger joint, but it would make it much harder to get a tight glue line which is the important part.


----------



## EstateSaleJunkie

I just picked up this saw today and I was wondering if someone could give me more info about it. I'm thinking it might be 1940s ish era Disston buck saw. Unfortunately the paper sticker is well worn but it does appear to have the Disston logo and says No. 40 and Henry Disston. I figured if anyone would know it would be you guys! 
Thanks
http://s347.photobucket.com/user/redditthrowaway15/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20161022_154225_zps9yn5b4u5.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0


----------



## bandit571

Spent $1 for this pair..









I might make some use out of both? I had to provide the file, though…..

Disstonian Institute might be a place to check out saws…


----------



## Brit

> I just picked up this saw today and I was wondering if someone could give me more info about it. I m thinking it might be 1940s ish era Disston buck saw. Unfortunately the paper sticker is well worn but it does appear to have the Disston logo and says No. 40 and Henry Disston. I figured if anyone would know it would be you guys!
> Thanks
> http://s347.photobucket.com/user/redditthrowaway15/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20161022_154225_zps9yn5b4u5.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0
> 
> - EstateSaleJunkie


First of all, welcome to Lumberjocks and to this thread. As the partial label on your saw says, it is a Disston No. 40. Here is an image of the saw from the Disston 1918 catalogue. It is in very good condition for its age and a nice find. Congrats!


----------



## Brit

At that time Disston made a number of variation on what was essentially the same saw frame. The differences were threefold, namely the colour of the staining, the design of the loop rod and most importantly the blade. Here are the other options. As you can see they all had a Number and a name, yours being known as the 'Eclectic'.


----------



## summerfi

Lots of saws in progress right now.


----------



## putty

Wow Bob you are busy, I cant wait for completed pics.
Are you folding your own spines now?


----------



## putty

Thanks for posting that Brit!

I have my Great Grandfathers. It hangs on the wall in my shop. There is no label nor etch though.


----------



## DanKrager

Putty, I have my dad's frame saw looks just like that. Exactly to every detail. One key to the ID is the top posts of unequal length are significant. Mine is like yours, and it's not broken or worn off because the paint is still there. I don't remember why! But it is significantly more common for equal posts than unequal I think. Brits posting jostled my memory. I'll be watching for ID. I thought I had mine IDd but did not write it down. I messed up and broke one of the curved ribs. Not sure what to do to fix it. I haven't ever tried to use it….

DanK


----------



## putty

Should be pretty easy for you to make a new rib Dan.
I tried to match it up to the catalog Brit posted but, I couldn't match it up with any of them… maybe a different maker?
Mine is still pretty sharp, holding the blade in place on one side is a bent over nail, the other has what looks like a machine screw with no nut. It's just a wall hanger that I will probably never use, I will keep it just how it is.


----------



## summerfi

> Wow Bob you are busy, I cant wait for completed pics.
> Are you folding your own spines now?
> 
> - putty


I've folded some spines, putty, but I'm not 100% happy with them yet and haven't found the time to experiment more. So for custom order saws, I've continued using TGIAG spines for now.


----------



## DanKrager

LOL @ Putty. That nail and bolt routine was done on this saw too! Ancestors came from the same family! How rich a coincidence. I know making another rib isn't s big deal, but I felt so badly about the incident I haven't even tried. Maybe we're related…

DanK


----------



## EstateSaleJunkie

Brit you are amazing! That catalogue description is exactly the kind of information I was looking for. At one point in my seach I actually started thinking that someone might have just slapped a disston sticker on a home made saw and I was beginning to get discouraged. Even the Disstonian Institute lacked any info on buck saws. Looking at the catalogue photo actually made me take a look more closely at the blade and I noticed it is etched with the same etch as in the catalogue! Something I would have had trouble finding were it not for your help. Thank you so much!

Now can anyone give me pointers on how to remove the rust from the blade without damaging the etch? I usually do a vinegar and water soak but it appears that this blade has the original rivets holding it on and I dont want to damage it. This saw is not going to be a user, just a show piece that i want to refurb a little without changing too much (it still has the original red stain and some varnish). Also, any suggestions on how to preserve what's left of the sticker? Clear coat over the top of it?

Thanks again!


----------



## DLK

Use a razor blade scraper and gently without too much pressure scrape the blade. Round over the razor blade corners first. Follow with high grit sand paper on a block to polish followed with auto-sol.


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

Wow ! Bob looks like you are back and taking more work on.


----------



## EstateSaleJunkie

> Use a razor blade scraper and gently without too much pressure scrape the blade. Round over the razor blade corners first. Follow with high grit sand paper on a block to polish followed with auto-sol.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Combo Prof


Thanks Combo Prof!


----------



## summerfi

Take your pick, brass or steel. Here's a pair of C. Garlick & Sons 12" carcase saws.

*Before*









*After*


----------



## ToddJB

Fine, I'll take the brass.


----------



## summerfi

Get your money order in the mail Todd. We don't take checks or cash.


----------



## ErikF

Hey gents. Thought I would stop in to show off a new saw design. It's ugly and dirty but it works well…now i'll clean up the design for fit and finish but I think it will be beneficial to a lot of people.

It's built to allow the user to make adjustments to the hang angle.

Front screw now goes through 1/4" material vs .02". This support allowed me to make the front screw a pivot point and the rear screw loosens to allow the handle to swing up or swing down. It is also using 1/4" material as support and has machined index points and a custom screw that mechanically lock it's angle once tightened (it won't slip).


----------



## CL810

Brilliant !!


----------



## donwilwol

Patent that sucker!!


----------



## DonBroussard

Pretty neat idea. You can change the hangle to the most comfortable position for the task at hand.


----------



## DLK

Well I picked up one of these for $5 today. Been looking for a while. Where can I buy a new blade? It is 29 inches hole to hole. The one on it is almost salvageable, but has a few broken teeth. Still cuts (with some skipping).










I found no maker marks. Can you identify it?


----------



## JADobson

You could try cutting down the 36" blade from lee valley: http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=67856&cat=1,41131


----------



## DanKrager

Combo, it's not unthinkable to joint the teeth and file "new" ones. Did that with a hand saw with 3 1/2 tpi and while the broken teeth didn't quite peak out like the rest, it does cut rather smoothly. They'll probably top out at the next sharpening.

DanK


----------



## DLK

Would the Lee Valley blade be to narrow? The blade on the buck saw is 1.5 inches wide.


----------



## DLK

> Combo, it s not unthinkable to joint the teeth and file "new" ones. Did that with a hand saw with 3 1/2 tpi and while the broken teeth didn t quite peak out like the rest, it does cut rather smoothly. They ll probably top out at the next sharpening.
> 
> DanK
> 
> - Dan Krager


I think that may be what I have to do. Its 6 tpi by the way. I wonder if I could get part of a bandsaw blade.


----------



## DLK

Hey I think I found one. Its here. But shippings going to kill the deal.


----------



## terryR

Blackburn Tools has long blades, not cheap.

http://www.blackburntools.com/new-tools/new-saws-and-related/roubo-frame-saw-blade/index.html


----------



## Mosquito

TGIAG.com has some as well, and I've enjoyed dealing with them in the past as well.
http://tgiag.com/sawplate.html


Frame Saw Rip Blade (Light)2" x 28" x 0.025" thk$29.50Frame Saw Rip Blade (Medium)2" x 28" x 0.032" thk$30.50Frame Saw Rip Blade (Large)4" x 28" x 0.032" thk$35.50


----------



## DLK

I wonder if there is enough play for the 28" blade.


----------



## DLK

Thanks Terry and Mos. I wonder if I can make 28" blade work. I'll need to take it all apart to see.

So I guess there are at least some options.


----------



## DLK

Now does anyone have a source for *loop coping saw blades* for a Trojan 46 A &S company deep throat coping saw. Looks to me they need to be 5" long. I seem to only be able to find 6" blades.


----------



## bandit571

A 348 Stanley Mitre box?


----------



## DLK

> A 348 Stanley Mitre box?
> 
> - bandit571


 What?


----------



## bandit571

#3 frame, 4" height, 28" length. About like my 358 mitrebox.


----------



## Mosquito

> I wonder if there is enough play for the 28" blade.
> 
> - Combo Prof


You could always try e-mailing Dominic at tgiag too. They can do custom sizes.


----------



## DLK

> I wonder if there is enough play for the 28" blade.
> 
> - Combo Prof
> 
> You could always try e-mailing Dominic at tgiag too. They can do custom sizes.
> 
> - Mosquito


I may do that.

I think I am going to go broke buying missing and broken parts.


----------



## Mosquito

that is a common problem lol


----------



## BrentParkin

I was just passing some time looking at saws on e-Bay. Ran across one of Eddie Sirotich's saws (Adria). I think I sat stunned looking at it. A modern saw made by a great saw maker and it is already in this sad condition. This one is serial number 24 so it was an early one likely from the late 90's. I have serial number 2 of Adria's tennon saws and it is a fantastic saw.

Goes to show it doesn't take long to totally wreck a wonderful tool. At least the wood looks ok and the brass could be cleaned. But I think the plate is pitted and might be a loss. It's sad to see.


----------



## Tim457

That is a little sad, but rust doesn't take long if something isn't stored well.


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

I got my legs cut off @ $50 !??


----------



## Brit

That's ridiculous. It is probably hanging on somebody's wall now never to be used again. Don't let Bob see that or he'll be putting his prices up. LOL.


----------



## CL810

Decimal points are important. Guy meant $51.10


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

I agree Andy. I had it on my watch list just to see what it would bring. Dont get me wrong, I would of loved to have it but my idea of collecting is finding an overlooked toad/gem.


----------



## summerfi

I was watching that one too. It's the only one in that style with a full back that I've seen. I guess I need to start making some of those. I thought it would go higher actually.


----------



## ErikF

Also posted this in red's handtool topic.

Hey Gents. I've been working on a couple new ideas and I think this variable hang angle saw is ready to go. There are a lot of good reads out there about how hang angle effects the way a saw performs. A poor cutting saw isn't always due to a bad set of teeth…it can be a bad pair-up between the users stance, bench height, and the saws setup (filing, height, hang angle). I like a low handle for a through stroke.

The saw back has a lobe that is sunk into the handle. For movement, the front screw acts as the pivot point and the rear screw allows handle movement when it's loose. Because the saw needed to be more rigid to allow for this movement- both the pivot screw and travel screw are being supported by both the handle and the 1/4" sawback material. Rear screw has a machined "key" that fits into machined points in lobe. This prevents the handle from slipping.

I put this one together yesterday to see what a finished version would look like. It's not completed but it gives a good idea of what the final product will look like and what it does.


----------



## ErikF

Bob- here is the first try. I'll need to make a smaller flask so I have better control when separating. You can see where I had some sand pull off.




























Cleaned up


----------



## terryR

^oh my!


----------



## Tim457

Erik, that's really cool. But I can't quite understand how you're using the key to get the handle not to slip. I'm looking to make a large wooden version of a compass for drawing circles on a whiteboard and I need some sort of joint that I can loosen quickly and tighten so that it won't slip. Wood to wood joints are too slippery when you have 12" levers.

And wow, can't believe you're casting your own medallions. Did Disston cast them or press them?


----------



## ErikF

Tim- here are the parts that prevent it from slipping. Screw mates to the slots…the screw can also be turned sideways to allow full travel without locking in one of the points. It's a solid enough fit with the tightened front screw that it doesn't move either way.

Disston and other makes casted their screws for a time. I'm not an expert on it but Bob can shed light on the timeline.


----------



## chrisstef

Thats some slick thinkin brochacho ^


----------



## summerfi

Not bad for a first try on the medallion Erik. Anxious to see you get the process refined.


----------



## chrisstef

Cross posting because I'm a little excited …. $5 barn sale find:


----------



## summerfi

Nice Steph. For $5 you suck though.


----------



## chrisstef

That's kinda what I thought Bob, but now that ive heard it from you …. I'm even happier lol.


----------



## theoldfart

I'd go so far as to say DOUBLE SUCK ! Really. Looking forward to the restore Stef.


----------



## chrisstef

Thanks OF. Best part is … wife's away for the night so it'll be shop time for me and Mr. Richardson. I'm gonna have to grab a couple brewski's for such an occasion.


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

Congrats' Steph.! Every so often a Rainbow falls on a Barn and a worthy LJ,,the $5 price tag price tag makes it sweeter !


----------



## TheFridge

> Best part is … wife s away for the night so it ll be fap time for me and Mr. Richardson. I m gonna have to grab a couple tissues for such an occasion.
> 
> - chrisstef


Hahahahahahaba


----------



## Brit

Lovely saw Stef. Good to know it has found a good home.


----------



## summerfi

It's actually Richardson Brothers, so you may be in for a better time than you thought, Stef.


----------



## chrisstef

Youse guys. Makin me blush. (Giggle)


----------



## donwilwol

Wow, a you suck event and with brothers. A sisters dream. Go Stef. (I knew it stood for Stephanie all along)


----------



## donwilwol

http://www.jimbodetools.com/cart.php?m=search_results&search=simon+barley

This is about 1/2 price of anybody else


----------



## Tim457

That saw is so sweet stef.

Hah, fridge for the win again.


----------



## summerfi

I thought I'd do a little pictorial on how I make saw plates. Modern saw makers use 1095 alloy spring steel shim stock that comes in a roll that looks like this. It is available in various thicknesses, widths, and lengths and it comes blued from the factory.










I've previouosly shown my new plate shear that I cut the steel with, so I'll skip that and go directly to a pic of several saw plates that have been cut to size. After cutting on the shear, I hand file the edges to get them straight and square. The nibs or other aesthetic shapes can be filed at this time. The plates have a slight bow from being rolled, and you have to straighten that out. Different makers use different techniques, but I just manipulate the steel by hand. The more you practice the easier it gets.










Next the plates need to be de-blued. There are different ways of doing it, and they all require either chemicals or abrasives. I use muriatic acid because it is cheap, quick and effective. I do it outside to minimize breathing the fumes. Using rubber gloves, I apply the acid with cotton balls and then immediately immerse the plates in a container of water to kill the action of the acid. Note the blued plates on the left side of this picture, and the water container on the right.










Here is the plastic container of water containing the freshly de-blued plates. It takes less that a minute to de-blue each plate.










After they are de-blued, the plates need to be polished. The steel itself is fairly polished from the factory, but the de-bluing process gives them a light uneven glaze of tarnish that ranges from gray to golden color. They are also subject to flash rust. These are easy to take off with fine abrasives. I use a combination of different abrasive wheels in a hand held drill, but fine sandpaper works too.

After polishing, the plates are ready to go to the laser engraver to have my logo applied. I precisely mark where the etches go with painter's tape, wrap each plate in wax paper to protect from scratches and rust, and deliver them to the engraver, who fortunately lives nearby. When they come back, they look like this.










At this stage I give them a good coat of paste wax. Now they are ready to be fit to their spines and handles, drilled, toothed, sharpened and made into finished saws.


----------



## Mosquito

Awesome Bob. By "I just manipulate the steel by hand", do you just bend them backwards from the curve? I've not yet had much luck with that yet, but may have to keep trying


----------



## Brit

Very interesting Bob, thank you.


----------



## donwilwol

Interesting Bob!


----------



## theoldfart

Impressive Bob. How's the wing?


----------



## summerfi

Mos, basically yes, but it's a little more complex than that. Some spots will need more bending than others, and you can use hand pressure to bend them against a hard surface such as a bench top. I also sometimes secure one end in a vise and use hand pressure to bend various parts of the plate. Sometimes they develop a slight twist, and you learn how and where to bend to get that out. I've also learned that when you insert the plate in a spine, the combination usually needs some tweaking to get bends or twists out. It's a learning process, and I'm still learning.

Edit: Kevin, it's doing great. I'm already back working in the shop, though it's still sore. It's only been 4 days, and I was told it would be a 6-8 weeks recovery, so I think I'm doing remarkably well at this point.


----------



## theoldfart

Good to hear Bob, just take your time. It took me close to four months to get back to comfortable and six more months for the discomfort to be completely gone Good news is more than twenty five years later no arthritis.


----------



## ErikF

1095 is a bear to work with. Lots of stress.

Tooth a plate- it curves

Polish a plate- it curves

Compliment yourself on straightening a plate- it curves


----------



## summerfi

My biggest frustration with 1095 steel is the imperfections that it comes with from the factory. Tiny voids in the metal, dimples from dirty rollers, scratches from dragging it cross the factory floor (apparently). These are virtually impossible to polish out, and result in wasting a lot of metal. I wrote the manufacturer about it. Their response: 99.9% of our customers don't care about those imperfections, so you need to find another source. That's not a solution because at least in the US it all seems to come from the same factory.


----------



## ErikF

Have you received the coils that didn't get a full coat of oil? Rust spots all over it- nothing deep but impossible to sand out. Harbor freights 3-1 shear, roller, brake, does a good job rolling plates straight ahead of final straightening.

I now use convolute wheels for the polishing…no longer need a "bath" ahead of time. They'll remove all the factory scratches…but I wouldn't want to go that route unless running it on a stationary unit.

My surface grinder is getting a new set of head bearings- when it's done I'll send you steel to check out.


----------



## summerfi

I haven't gotten a rusty roll yet, but the amount of oil/grease varies tremendously. I have a convolute wheel that works well on the drill press, but it is coarser than I like. It still seems like you'd have to remove a lot of metal to eliminate the scratches, then your plate would be thinner than it should be.

A funny side note, I once ordered a roll of .042 steel for making full size hand saws. I didn't notice they sent the wrong thickness, which was more like .090. I always put a rope around the roll and let the pressure off gradually after cutting the bands. When I cut the bands on this stuff it exploded and nearly took my head off. I did get a minor injury on my hand, and my hat went flying across the shop. I was lucky. When I tried to get a refund, they said, oh just roll it back up and mail it back to us. Yeah right! I did get the refund and still have the steel.


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

Glad to hear your on the mend Bob. It would be nice to have better sources for the spring steel but the frustrations are what makes the craft more unique.


----------



## ErikF

Ha! Stuff is terrifying to open up. I have a pair of kevlar gloves I use when opening the coils. I had a friend helping me last year and he ended up at urgent care to have his hand stitched up.

Who is the manufacturer listed on your boxes of spring steel? Do you order through mcmaster?


----------



## summerfi

I order through Amazon since they have the cheapest prices I've found plus I get free shipping. The manufacturer is Lyon Industries.


----------



## onoitsmatt

That sounds terrifying, Bob. Loved seeing your pictures but wow, be careful with those rolls. Sounds like you're lucky to still have a forehead.


----------



## chrisstef

All cleaned up. I think i can make out a very faint etching of the number 7 but thats about it. The handle didnt clean up as well as i would have liked but Richy is only a quick sharpening away from being back to work.


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

That saw loooks great now and at home sitting in front of that chest.


----------



## donwilwol

Looks great Are.


----------



## JethroBodean

Well I had a blast on Saturday, I was out rust hunting. I hit two Habitat ReStores, a pawn shop and an antique store. The trip netted me a Disston handsaw, a Compass saw, a Butcher's saw, a 12" Disston backsaw and finally a Disston? Triumph Saw Set. And I was lucky enough to get them all for less than two sawbucks (yes, pun intended).










The Disston hand saw appears to have an etch, but I won't know what it says until after the cleaning. The tote has a flower carving, but I've never seen one like this. Does anyone know if this is one of Disston's designs?










I don't know anything about the Compass or Butchers Saws, but thought they were cool.










Now the Disston Backsaw is the one that really revved me up. I'm once again hoping to dip into the LJ knowledge well. Would it have been made with the slanted tooth line? Or has the toe just been jammed into the spine. I guess I'll know for sure once I take the spoine off. There is almost a 1" different between the heel (2.5") and the toe (just over 1.5"). What would a saw of this size have been called? Dovetail? Carcase?


----------



## summerfi

Jeff, I think the handsaw is an Atkins with a Disston medallion. Atkins made the floral embossed handles, but I don't believe Disston ever did. What is the length of the backsaw? If it's 12" it would be a carcase saw, if it's 10" it would be a dovetail saw. Disston never made a canted backsaw blade, so I suspect you'll find that the toe has gone up into the spine. However, that seems like an extreme amount, so it's possible that someone has trimmed the toe down some, either intentionally, or cumulatively through many sharpenings.


----------



## JethroBodean

Bob - You're right that I presumed it was a Disston Handsaw based solely on the Medallion. Hopefully I can pull out the etch and can see what it says.

The Backsaw is 12" so it must fall into the Cascase saw category. In it's condition, I don't see any evidence of an etch, but I've been surprised before.

Thank for the knowledge, I really it.
Jeff


----------



## JethroBodean

Bob - Turns out to be a Frankensaw! The Medallion and the plate both are Disston. But somewhere along the way, someone did a chop job on the plate to fit the Atkins tote.


----------



## summerfi

That seems to happen a lot Jeff. But it still can be a good usable saw.


----------



## duckmilk

> Ha! Stuff is terrifying to open up. I have a pair of kevlar gloves I use when opening the coils. I had a friend helping me last year and he ended up at urgent care to have his hand stitched up.
> 
> - ErikF


That sounds terrifying indeed. How about an open field, a pair of long handled cutters and a plexiglass shield to hide behind?

Thanks for the information Bob.

Jeff, perhaps the original handle broke and the guy found an Atkins handle to replace it. I do like the floral carving on that handle.


----------



## ToddJB

Just finished cleaning up a 16" Disston. 1896-1917. First time bluing. Came out okay. Bob gave me some tips.

Anybody got a 1/2 brass nut laying around they want to sell to the cause of getting this guy back on the road?


----------



## summerfi

Todd, I'm sure I can help you out. Let me look through my stash.


----------



## chrisstef

1/2 brass nut. Is that kinda like when i try to stand up to my wife?


----------



## ToddJB

Thanks for checking, Bob


----------



## theoldfart

Sharpened my first saw today, a Diston thumbhole 6ppi. Still need to stone the edges. Pics tomorrow.


----------



## bandit571

Still haven't figured out the "Atkins" saw from an Estate sale…









Have since cleaned it up a bit. Medallion is the AAA style from Indy…. Plate is a skew back, 7 ppi. Brass hardware, medallion is flush with the wood.

Did Atkins have such a saw? No carving on the handle. Holes in plate match holes in the handle. 









What little traces of an etch I found, doesn't have a keystone in it…...more like a hint of circles. 









Cleaned up fairly nice though…..plate is straight, teeth look good. Might have some life left in it.

Just wasn't sure what model number it was….


----------



## Brit

Way to go Kev. Good to know you're putting those nice saw vises to work.

Bandit - Looks like you worked a miracle on that saw. Well done.


----------



## theoldfart

So I took a class with this guy









Matt Cianci, The Saw Wright. Good class and it has kick started me down the road to self sufficiency where saws are concerned.

First up was a 6PPI thumbhole.









Not half bad









Went through 6/4 cherry quite well.

Now I'm getting my butt kicked by a 33" Disstin mitre saw 11ppi









Probably going to do it twice as I don't like what I'm seeing right now. It is getting better as I go along and I can afford to have take a while since I have a few others I can use.


----------



## CFrye

Congratulations, Kev! It took me a minute to figure out what was going on with your plate, then I realized the saw plate was on the bottom half of the picture! Duh.


----------



## Mosquito

lol I did the same Candy. At first it looked like a jointed wooden saw plate lol


----------



## theoldfart

OK, better?


----------



## Brit

Go Kev!


----------



## summerfi

I did the same thing with that pic. Funny how the human mind plays tricks.
I'm proud of you Kevin!


----------



## WillliamMSP

Ha - add me to the chorus. I was thinking, "okay, so the teeth were just jointed, but why the heck is the plate so gouged?!"


----------



## theoldfart

hah, a true artist is never appreciated.

Lets just agree there will be NO pics of this sharpening as of now; small teeth+one bad eye=some mistakes!


----------



## summerfi

You gotta have one of these Kevin. I couldn't live without one.
http://www.harborfreight.com/household/assisted-living/magnifier-head-strap-with-lights-38896.html


----------



## Brit

The good news is Kev that once you've done a few saws, you'll look less and less and feel more and more. You will develop consistency through muscle memory.


----------



## theoldfart

Yes I do Bob, I think DonW uses them as well.

That's what the instructor was saying Andy. His joke was he has two types of student one goes home and practices the other brings the saw home, uses it, and when dull sends it to him for resharpening.


----------



## CL810

That gave me a good laugh Kev. I took a class once and the instructor spent a couple of hours explaining sharpening saws to give us just the basics if we wanted to pursue it. I looked at my notes and I wrote "SEND SAW TO PROFESSIONAL SHARPENING SERVICE!!!"



> .... two types of student one goes home and practices the other brings the saw home, uses it, and when dull sends it to him for resharpening.
> 
> - theoldfart


----------



## theoldfart

Good news for Bob then, eh?


----------



## CFrye

When I was into photography, that is just the kind of image I would have loved to have produced. The kind that makes 'em look twice!


----------



## terryR

Awesome, Kevin.

One-o-these days I swear I'll sit down and figure out my mistakes from the learning curve. In the meantime, please post yer mailing address. LOL.


----------



## putty

Posting this here because I'm sure Bob will see it.

Water bag from the forest service circa 1930. It's in an antuque store for 385.00 ... it will probably be there for a long time.


----------



## theoldfart

Tell you what Terry, if I finish sharpening all of my saws (20+ or so), I'll give you a holler.


----------



## Michiganian

Hello Folks,
I've just joined the forum and I am interested in the forum's opinions about a panel saw that I recently acquired. I am trying to find out some information as to the manufacturer. The saw is a 20" skewback with the J.P.H. Co "Everkeen" logo and the No. D-23 on the blade. I know the J.P.H. Company was a large hardware company in Milwaukee, but they made very few of the products they sold. The saw looks to me to be a Disston manufacture, the etching on the blade looks like Disston and the handle is a perfect overlay match for my Disston D-100. Except, the D-23 handle is carved like a D-7 (hand cutout and notch on the top of the handle), is not a cover-top like the D-8, but it has the D-8 bolt pattern, and the handle wood is a dark wood, walnut is my guess. The chip carving on the handle is very similar the my D-100, maybe even better.

Any and all observations and opinions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Michiganian


----------



## Johnny7

"Everkeen" was a hardware store brand name

The store was Pritzlaff Hardware (J.P.H.=John Pritzlaff Hdwre) and was based in Wisconsin


----------



## DanKrager

My drawknife is an Everkeen, if I remember the clear stamp correctly. But there is no logo, just stamped letters.

DanK


----------



## duckmilk

I would lean toward Disston made.


----------



## Michiganian

> I would lean toward Disston made.
> 
> - duckmilk


That's what I think. Thanks for your opinion.


----------



## summerfi

Putty - thanks for that pic. 1930, that's back in the day when men were men in the Forest Service. Looks like it came from the local ranger district right here in my town. The price seems outrageously high. They should donate t to the Forest Service museum.


----------



## onoitsmatt

Like Dan, I've got a draw knife with a similar logo.


----------



## bandit571

Been trying to rehab this little saw…









There is a faint Disston etch….and a "10" stamped under the handle. Medallion is a late model Disston USA style.

Hammer to remove a few kinks in the 20" long plate. Then a file to joint the teeth..









No, it isn't missing any teeth…..this might take a while.

Not sure which model the saw is, can't make it out in the etch. Files might cost more than the saw did…


----------



## summerfi

Looks like D-8 panel to me Bandit.


----------



## bandit571

Thank you! Is this worth the effort to rehab? Plate was a bit on the pitted side of rusty..









Might have paid a dollar bill for it…


----------



## summerfi

This saw represents a milestone for me. It is my first saw to go international. As of this morning it is on it's way to a fine gentleman in NSW, Australia. The saw was ordered with a canted plate, 3.5" at the heel and 3.0" at the toe. It is a 14" rip saw, so technically a small tenon saw. I'm honoured to have one of my saws "down under".


----------



## CL810

That Aussie is a lucky guy!


----------



## Tim457

Man you do impressive work, Bob.


----------



## Brit

Looks perfect Bob and I'm sure it is. Congrats to both of you.


----------



## summerfi

Thanks guys. Andy, I strive for perfection, but I haven't gotten there yet. Some days I think I have a long ways to go.


----------



## ToddJB

Bob, does it get boring just being so good at everything you try?


----------



## summerfi

Haha, Todd that's like one of those have you stopped beating your wife questions.


----------



## DLK

Should have told me Bob. I leave for NSW on Dec 9. I could have carried the saw with me. Maybe save some shipping.


----------



## summerfi

What town you headed to Don? The saw went to Federal, which appears to be a small village about 2 hours south of Brisbane. Shipping wasn't cheap - $55.60


----------



## putty

Beautiful work Bob,
Hope he paid you in US Dollar!


----------



## donwilwol

...nice work Bob


----------



## DLK

I'll be in Newcastle for a month. But wow Federal is just barely in NSW. Still I could have handed it off to a couple of friends who will be visiting from Brisbane.


----------



## summerfi

Don W, yes I know the one. That was a special request thing, but I could do it for any saw upon request.


----------



## putty

.


----------



## bandit571

Let's see….10ppi x 20" in length….about 200 teeth? Files need a decent handle….fingers are sore, now. First pass along the tooth line. Saw pulls a bit to the left during the test drive…..filed that side's burr down.

Would like to get this saw done, as I has an Atkins 26" skew back, 7 ppi to also sharpen up. 









Have since cleaned this up..









Kind of rusty..


----------



## terryR

Wow, Bob.

I've been thinking of a 14" Bob Saw for my new shop. Of course, it needs a glass display case built first!


----------



## realcowtown_eric

If anyone in Calgary area wants a foley belsaw handsaw filer, please send me a PM


----------



## Mosquito

Awesome for anyone looking for one. I could use a couple of ratchet bars, but haven't really been looking, since I haven't used my retoother much yet. I've got I think 5, but at least 1 is worn a bit


----------



## bandit571

meh..









The one in front I am working on, the other didn't need it.

Didn't have the room foe this thing…









Didn't know where all the parts were. They had a grinder, too..









Just didn't have the space to put them in …..


----------



## donwilwol

Some mention of ratchet bars. I have no idea what they're worth. These are in the facebook group


----------



## Mosquito

Saw that too Don. That's a good $150 more than I paid for my filer, retoother, setter, 5 carriers and 5 ratchet bars combined lol I know the ratchet bars aren't very cheap though. It was difficult for me to determine the shape that the ratchet bars were in, but at least 2 of them looked like they may be fairly worn to me (I'm by no means an expert, or probably even novice at this point)


----------



## summerfi

When I see ratchet bars sell on ebay, which isn't often, they generally go for about $150 for the standard set of 5. The set in Don's post includes one of the optional bars, which bring a little more. The carriers usually go for around $20 each. Similar to Mos, I bought a filer, setter, retoother, and two different kinds of grinders plus 5 ratchet bars and 5 carriers for $150 total.


----------



## bandit571

That rusty-arsed Atkins saw above? Came from the same place as those Belsaw tools were. I finally finished cleaning up the saw today, including running a file to correct a lot of cow&calf. Shined up nicely..









26" long, open-top, skew back 7ppi. Has the "AAA" medallion from Indy…









Just BLO on the handle, right now. Screws have been "clocked" BTW..









Drew a line with a square to try this out.









Started a bit rough, but cuts fast..









Recheck with the square..









Not too hateful…might as well place it in the til, for now.


----------



## bandit571

maybe I'll start on those teeth…..next..









Do I need to sharpen the nib, too?









Disston No.7


----------



## dbray45

Those teeth are not bad. Some of the saws I got from the bay were brutal


----------



## Brit

OMG David. I've seen better teeth than that on a dragonfish.










I genuinely think I could do better than that wearing a blindfold. LOL.


----------



## dbray45

When I was done messing with it -


----------



## Brit

Much better.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

We call that snaggletooth….back in the hood.


----------



## summerfi

From ebay.uk


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

"WOW". I keep a pretty deep watchlist Bob and didnt see the Kenyon come around.


----------



## Mosquito

The 2017 Calendar has now been created and published! For those who may be interested (sadly, I didn't fit many saws into this years calendar)




  






More and Ordering Information Can Be Found Here


----------



## ToddJB

Cleaned this guy up. Can any of you eagle eyes tell me who badged this beauty as a WS?





































Says Dec. 27, 1887


----------



## WillliamMSP

I'm no help, but nice work, particularly on the handle - cleaned up beautifully.


----------



## bandit571

Disston…pre-1928 D-21…....


----------



## theoldfart

Todd, patent date is for the saw nuts. Nice restore.


----------



## ToddJB

Kev, that makes sense.

Bandit, I couldn't find a D21 with that kind of detail on top of the handle.


----------



## bandit571

I had just gone to the Distonian Institute a bit ago…...second picture down on the D-20,D-21,D-22, D-23 page showed the same handle…Only the first two were skew back saws. ( all three of my D-23s have a straight back)

Took maybe 5 minutes to look it up…..


----------



## WillliamMSP

> I had just gone to the Distonian Institute a bit ago…...second picture down on the D-20,D-21,D-22, D-23 page showed the same handle…Only the first two were skew back saws. ( all three of my D-23s have a straight back)
> 
> Took maybe 5 minutes to look it up…..
> 
> - bandit571


None of those are the same. The first 8 saws on that page have 5 bolts through the handle and none have the notch detail along the top at the base of the horn.


----------



## bandit571

I can only go by what the Disstonian Institute says. I also went to the section where they show the various handles for EACH model of saw that Disston made over the years….D-21….


----------



## WillliamMSP

Can you link the page? The page that you mentioned - under the link for D-20, D-21, D-22, and D-23 Saws - doesn't show a match, not even with more than 5 minutes of looking…


----------



## bandit571

Well…go back and look a bit longer….there is also a section ( second one down in their index) on the handles used by Disston, and lists the model numbers for each handle. Since the D-20 and the D-21 were skew back full width saws that were soon after dropped from the model line-up, Todd may just have a "rare" saw. It also says that the panel saw versions used 4 bolts.

Easy site to use, doesn't take all that much work to find things. Heck, they even have a few coloured pictures to look at…..


----------



## summerfi

I believe bandit is correct. My first thought was Atkins, but the wheat carving is an exact match for a Disston. When Disston made WS saws under a hardware store brand, they often changed up the handle details just a bit. Examples on this saw would be the number of screws and the nib detail at the top of the handle.

Nice job on the restore Todd.


----------



## WillliamMSP

> Well…go back and look a bit longer….there is also a section ( second one down in their index) on the handles used by Disston, and lists the model numbers for each handle. Since the D-20 and the D-21 were skew back full width saws that were soon after dropped from the model line-up, Todd may just have a "rare" saw. It also says that the panel saw versions used 4 bolts.
> 
> Easy site to use, doesn t take all that much work to find things. Heck, they even have a few coloured pictures to look at…..
> 
> - bandit571


If it's so easy to use, why not link what you're referencing instead of the passive-aggressive surliness?

If you're talking about this -










vs this -










Similar, sure. "The same handle"? No. In addition to the 4/5 bolts, the upper horn is shaped very differently with a much more pronounced hook and, again, the contours all along the top are somewhat similar, but certainly different in shape, proportion and angles and, again, completely omit the double nib at the base of the upper horn.

One thing is for certain, though - even if it were a dead ringer, it still wouldn't warrant the cranky attitude that you often display while under the guise of being helpful.


----------



## WillliamMSP

> When Disston made WS saws under a hardware store brand, they often changed up the handle details just a bit. Examples on this saw would be the number of screws and the nib detail at the top of the handle.
> 
> - summerfi


Thank you for acknowledging and offering a possible explanation for the discrepancies. You're a great resource.


----------



## bandit571

Panel saws had 4 bolts on most Disston made saws, while the full sized ones tended to get 5…..unless it is like a No. 7 or the D-7


----------



## ToddJB

Good thing, I went to a kids movie this morning so you guys could get that all hashed out. Ha.

Thanks for the knowledge, gang.


----------



## bandit571

Random saw pictures…









Just random shots…


----------



## DWeir

> Hello Folks,
> I ve just joined the forum and I am interested in the forum s opinions about a panel saw that I recently acquired. I am trying to find out some information as to the manufacturer. The saw is a 20" skewback with the J.P.H. Co "Everkeen" logo and the No. D-23 on the blade. I know the J.P.H. Company was a large hardware company in Milwaukee, but they made very few of the products they sold. The saw looks to me to be a Disston manufacture, the etching on the blade looks like Disston and the handle is a perfect overlay match for my Disston D-100. Except, the D-23 handle is carved like a D-7 (hand cutout and notch on the top of the handle), is not a cover-top like the D-8, but it has the D-8 bolt pattern, and the handle wood is a dark wood, walnut is my guess. The chip carving on the handle is very similar the my D-100, maybe even better.
> 
> Any and all observations and opinions would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> Thanks,
> Michiganian
> 
> - Michiganian


Michiganian,

I believe your Everkeen saw was made by G.H. Bishop and was their premium "Greyhound" saw and was produced as early as 1908 according to Google Books. I do know they were made as late as 1914 and more than likely a little later but I haven't searched all that much.

I'm not positive but the D-23 could possibly be a E-23, with the E being Everkeen. Just a thought anyway….

I believe the handles on mine are Cuban mahogany. The pictures below are from an actual G.H. Bishop Greyhound 26" cross cut I own and the other thumb-hole rip version is one made for Marshall Wells Hardware and was their "Zenith" brand. These really are a nice saw with a pretty remarkable taper grind and a very good polish on the blade. The steel filed tough and when struck has a nice harmonic tone to it like other high end saws such as the Disston No.12. I love the lambs tongue and the fact that the handle is let-in which is a little more unusual for a lambs tongue design. I believe Wheeler, Madden & Clemson used a similar design on one of there saws. The nickel plated hardware doesn't hurt anything either!

On a side note, I'm pretty sure yours only has the 4 fasteners because it's a panel length saw. You've now shown me that these were made in a panel saw length and I thank you for that information.














































Hope this helps you out a little!

Take care,
Daryl


----------



## bandit571

Just a random saw pictures









There is a Disston etch on the blade, BTW….









May need to find out what type of work these saws were for…..


----------



## summerfi

That's a compass saw, used for making round or curved cuts. Here is a pretty good article describing the difference between compass, table, keyhole, and pad saws. http://www.vintagesaws.com/library/ftj/winter98/winter98.html


----------



## Mosquito

Daryl that is a gorgeous saw


----------



## DWeir

Thanks for the kudos Mos, I think that model is a pretty nice saw too!


----------



## summerfi

Here's a couple more recently completed saws. This first one is a 14" sash saw that went to PA.



















And this one is a 16" tenon saw that will soon be heading to IL.


----------



## ToddJB

Those custimzed, Bob? What's the additional writing on the spine?


----------



## ColonelTravis

Bob, awesome work. What's going on in this circled area, sorry, I'm having trouble figuring it out. Is it light playing with the figure or a carved detail?


----------



## ColonelTravis

I restored one of those compass saws earlier this year. That link Bob gave had this in there:

"Using a compass saw is tedious at best."

Heh. I remember a while back wanting one for a job and I didn't have one. I said - I'm gobbling up one of those saws next time I see it. I don't even remember what the job was now, and haven't used it since I brought it back to life. At least I enjoy looking at it.


----------



## summerfi

Todd - Yes, they are both custom orders. What you are seeing is the owners' names, which was a special request on both saws.

Travis - That is a decorative detail that is traditional on older backsaws. Different makers used slightly different detail shapes. This is just how I do it.


----------



## putty

Awesome work Bob…and just in time for Christmas.


----------



## terryR

Beautiful, Bob!
Such fine workmanship!


----------



## ColonelTravis

Great stuff as always, thanks. I hadn't seen that detail before and like it.


----------



## jmartel

Can I at least point out that Bob even indexed the split nuts so they are all facing the same direction?


----------



## theoldfart

Yea, Bob likes to get clocked!


----------



## BigRedKnothead

It's so nice of Bob to hang out with us…...

It's kinda like when Mozart felt bad for the saloon pianists and decided to spend some time with them.


----------



## summerfi

You wouldn't say such nice things if you heard me play the piano Red.


----------



## CL810

Long story short, the table saw I purchased from Bob finally left my shop for it's intended home and I gotta admit, a tear was shed.


----------



## realcowtown_eric

luv the saw pix


----------



## Brit

Hey Bob - Can you make me one of these? I think it will catch on.


----------



## summerfi

That's an interesting exercise machine, Andy, but I think you should just buy this one. It will build up your arm muscles, or maybe you could convert it to foot power.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1800s-RARE-One-Man-Cross-Cut-Saw-Clamps-to-log-Free-standing-Original-Paint-/222341365254?hash=item33c493fe06:g:TwYAAOSwcUBYS2pe


----------



## Johnny7

^I don't know about the "1800s" bit

As I recall, those 2 digit postal codes were instituted in the WWII era (early 1940s)


----------



## duckmilk

> You wouldn t say such nice things if you heard me play the piano Red.
> 
> - summerfi


I'd rather hear you play a saw.


----------



## summerfi

I think you would regret either one Duck.


----------



## Brit

Whenever I finish restoring a saw, I invariably give it a good thumbing to whatever is playing on the radio at the time. Goes nice with a bit of Abba. LOL. Sounds awful, but it is like a passing out ceremony for the saw.


----------



## ErikF

I thought this saw turned out well so I'm showing her off.


----------



## CL810

it's beautiful Erik. What kind of wood did you use for the handle?


----------



## ErikF

> it s beautiful Erik. What kind of wood did you use for the handle?
> 
> - CL810


Thanks! I think it's leopardwood. I actually received it a couple years ago from Red in a swap…if he reads this I hope he will chime in.


----------



## bandit571

That Compass saw feels like it needs a good sharpening, rather a bit DULL. Looks like it was filed as a crosscut.

IF I can get back to the shop, I might give it a try with a file. Plate does have a slight bend to it, though. Might be a way to straighten it out.


----------



## jmartel

Looks like it's either Lacewood or Leopardwood. I'd assume Leopardwood based off of the color, but I've seen Lacewood that dark before as well.


----------



## terryR

Looks fine, Erik! 
Pretty sure it's Leopardwood I sent to Red a few years ago! LOL!


----------



## summerfi

Cool saw Erik. Do you call that a halfback?


----------



## putty

> Pretty sure it s Leopardwood I sent to Red a few years ago! LOL!
> 
> - terryR


BUSTED


----------



## ErikF

> Cool saw Erik. Do you call that a halfback?
> 
> - summerfi


Not sure- I had a plate for a full size halfback get a nice big scratch so I cut it down just to see how the parts would come together. The plate is pretty heavy at 12" and .032" thickness but it's nice for quick cross cuts. I'll try a .025" plate with similar setup to see how it feels. Would like to be able to cut a radius but this plate won't cooperate.


----------



## ErikF

> Looks fine, Erik!
> Pretty sure it s Leopardwood I sent to Red a few years ago! LOL!
> 
> - terryR


Hahaha the village bicycle


----------



## TheFridge

> Pretty sure it s Leopardwood I sent to Red a few years ago! LOL!
> 
> - terryR
> 
> BUSTED
> 
> - putty


Red the Re-gifter strikes!


----------



## donwilwol

All I hope is I get it next!!


----------



## summerfi

Something tells me that could happen Don.


----------



## Brit

Nice saw Erik. It might also be pomelle sapele.


----------



## terryR

^ this


----------



## TheFridge

> ^ this
> 
> - terryR


Spurt…


----------



## summerfi

This matching pair of 22" panel saws is getting mailed off to Puerto Rico this morning.


----------



## terryR

And THAT^^^


----------



## jmartel

Hey Bob, I think you spelled Washington wrong. Hopefully the mail carriers get it here ok.


----------



## ToddJB

Holy cow, Bob. Those are stunning. Good to see the shoulder isn't slowing production down.


----------



## onoitsmatt

Beautiful work as always, Bob.


----------



## chrisstef

"I knew bob summerfi before he started making saws"


----------



## duckmilk

Stunning work Bob. Those handles look almost bookmatched.


----------



## JADobson

Bob, those are just incredible.


----------



## summerfi

Thanks for the comments everyone.

Out of the same board, Duck, but not bookmatched. Here's a picture of that board. It came from my dad's shop, so it's been around for a long time, perhaps 40-50 years. Perfectly quarter sawn and very dense and hard with close growth rings. Not a board you find every day.


----------



## DLK

Found these Spear and Jackson saws in Ishlington, Australia. Should I buy one?. I can get another $5 off if I pay cash.

Saw A $25 AUD ~ $20 USD. 12" by 3.25" plate:








Picture of other side did not come out (sorry). Spine on that side is stamped and the plate has a faint etch. no rust on that side.

Saw B $35 AUD ~ $24 USD. 16" by 3.5" plate:
















No stamps or etch. This has the best plate and is heavyist.

Saw C $25 AUD ~ $20 USD. 9" by 2.5" plate:
















No stamps or etch.

Remarks:

I have at home better saws similar to A and C, but none as large as B.
I of course don't really need one.


----------



## bandit571

Buy all three, then send them over to Bob and see what he sends back….


----------



## summerfi

DonK, I've sold saws similar to all three on ebay after restoration and was surprised at what I got. I have no doubt you could turn a profit on them all. If I was going to keep one, I would keep A, but that's mostly a personal choice based on aesthetics.


----------



## summerfi

Oh, and let me just say that if I was visiting Oz I'd be looking to stuff my suitcase with wood. They have some very cool figured woods there that are difficult to get at a reasonable price here because of the shipping.


----------



## DLK

I wasn't think of turning a profit. My first instincts was to buy A. I'm not really where I can easily get wood. I would have to arrange someone to take me and I have other obligations. I do wish I had the time to do so. But we'll see. I'll come back in 2 years I think. But as you can see under my toes even the flooring here is quite figured.


----------



## ErikF

Dang, Bob! Those saws are something pretty.

Here is a complete saw I have sitting on my bench. It's one out of the first batch of variable hang angle saws. Finally got the kinks worked out of the design, all that's left to do is make the nut drivers that come as part of the kit.

Hoping to help people "match" their saw. Find a good hang angle and get a smooth stroke with varying wood hardness.


----------



## jmartel

Is there much advantage to a variable hang angle saw? Not necessarily for finding out a hang angle that works for you, but changing it up to accommodate different woods, etc.?


----------



## ErikF

> Is there much advantage to a variable hang angle saw? Not necessarily for finding out a hang angle that works for you, but changing it up to accommodate different woods, etc.?
> 
> - jmartel


Yup, especially if it's a sharp saw. I wouldn't change it for one cut but would change it for differing projects if my wood species changed.

I do a fair amount of machine work and think of it the same way. If I am cutting brass I can take a heavier cut, if I'm cutting tool steel I'll take a lighter cut. Dropping the handle decreases the downforce and angle of aggression at the tooth. A saw plate is only so rigid, it will chatter if the angle is too aggressive.


----------



## Tim457

So harder wood, lower hangle, softer wood higher hangle? That is a slick solution.


----------



## theoldfart

ECAtkins 51, worth $35 ?


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

. Nice thinking outside the box Erik and nice follwing up on the design. I think you ought to send me one for evaluation.

Old Fart,, If you Want it,, its worth $35. It looks like it is in pretty good shape and without much work a good user. tuned and cleaned nicely and its worth 75.

DonK, The (A) is my choice, might be apple under that paint.?

Bob S, Those twins make me hide my eyes so my wife wont be jellus


----------



## DLK

Thanks, Turtle. I 've decided I don't have room for all three.


----------



## summerfi

As 2016 ends and I'm looking ahead to a new year, I'm making some changes to my saw making enterprise. I will no longer be accepting orders for new custom saws. I will, however, continue to accept saw restoration and sharpening work. I have a backlog of a few saws to finish and then I'll move on to other things. I'll continue to make saws, but it will be the saws I want to make, and at a slower pace. I have more info on my blog if you're interested.


----------



## Mosquito

Aw man Bob. On the one hand sorry to see you have to stop, but on the other hand congrats on making desirable custom saws, I suppose. Look forward to whatever else you produce


----------



## WillliamMSP

> I will no longer be accepting orders for new custom saws.
> 
> - summerfi


----------



## chrisstef

Whenever your hobby becomes a job, it loses a lot of its luster. I cant say I blame ya Bob.


----------



## theoldfart

Understandable Bob, hobbies tend to become non hobbies when they turn into a job.

Anyway I have four of Bobs resto masterpieces so why should I care


----------



## putty

I cant blame you either Bob,

It will be nice not having orders and deadlines hanging over your head.


----------



## ToddJB

Good for you, Bob.

Bad for my procrastinating ass.


----------



## summerfi

Thanks fellers. Let me also say that the customers I've had were all a pleasure to work with. I've never had one issue with anyone over a saw. It's just that this has consumed my time, and I ain't gettin' no younger, if you know what I mean.


----------



## theoldfart

" and I ain't gettin' no younger" now that's an inconvenient truth


----------



## Mosquito

> Bad for my procrastinating ass.
> 
> - ToddJB


lol that


----------



## CL810

+1



> Bad for my procrastinating ass.
> 
> - ToddJB


----------



## TheFridge

> +1
> 
> Bad for my procrastinating ass.
> 
> - ToddJB
> 
> - CL810


Yeah me too.


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

Bob, You know we are behind you 100% regardless whether your making fine saws or twiddeling your thumbs.


----------



## summerfi

Haha, thanks Turtle (I think). I'll still be making saws. Just not taking orders any more.


----------



## TheFridge

Well Bob, in that case. I have a saw that needs the tote replaced. Then the spine, then the plate…


----------



## summerfi

You're a sly devil Fridge. ;>)


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## bandit571

Pair of N0. 4s….5×28 needs sharpened. 11ppi, for use in a Stanley No.358 mitre box…...price?


----------



## duckmilk

> Haha, thanks Turtle (I think). I ll still be making saws. Just not taking orders any more.
> 
> - summerfi


I need a new saw till Bob. Just sayin'


----------



## DeepWater

I'd be really curious as to the products and techniques you used to restore them? I've restored a couple of hand planes and like the rust remover Evapo-Rust since it isn't toxic and really seems to work. What about polishing?

I know I'd have to go off and learn how to sharpen them… sigh. I'm in deep now! ;-)


----------



## DLK

I've been final polishing with auto-sol because it is basically orderless. I buy it in the 750ml = 33.3 oz can because it is expensive to buy it the 7.5ml = 3.33 oz tubes. But I'am also finishing up a a bottle of nasty brass-o for brass. Found a wire wheel to be helpful both on the drill and dremal.


----------



## bandit571

Well, I guess I can look elsewhere to get two saws sharpened up…..


----------



## DLK

> Well, I guess I can look elsewhere to get two saws sharpened up…..
> 
> - bandit571


I have a mate who sharpens saws. I can hook you up.


----------



## JADobson

> Well, I guess I can look elsewhere to get two saws sharpened up…..
> 
> - bandit571


Wow, passive aggressive much? Its a Saturday and most people are in the shop. Give it some time before getting all weepy.


----------



## bandit571

Huh?????


----------



## bandit571

> Well, I guess I can look elsewhere to get two saws sharpened up…..
> 
> - bandit571
> 
> I have a mate who sharpens saws. I can hook you up.
> 
> Thanks, but I will try to support the locals here.
> 
> We have an Old Order Amish sect in my area, I'll try them first, and support local. Had a large project coming up, that needed a SHARP saw in the Stanley #358 Mitre box. No link, no PM. No price….no sale.
> - Combo Prof


----------



## theoldfart

Can all of this BS please stop?
I come here to discuss woodworking. There are a lot of folks here I regard as friends. This pissing in the wind is messing up my idea of a good place to be. 
It's a sad thing when I have to get gassed up on a fifth of bourbon to speak up but if that's what it takes.
Let's get back to creating and leave the destruction to others.

Happy New year to everyone and I do mean everyone. See you in 2017.


----------



## Mosquito

Reminds me, some day I'll get the saw filer runnin' smooth, but not today


----------



## bandit571

I can indeed sharpen saws, but when the teeth get down to the 11 ppi on 28" of saw plate, these old eyes just ain't going to get it done.

Have a bunch of crosscuts to be done, and quite a few mitre cuts, too. Saws work, but gets a bit rough on this old COPD body, when the saw is as sharp as it should be. From about 7 ppi on down to 5 or lower, I am set up for sharpening. Still have plenty of files…..but not small enough for the mitre saw's teeth.

I have until 6 JAN 2017 before I can start this project. Local Amish might be my best option..


----------



## WillliamMSP

> Had a large project coming up, that needed a SHARP saw in the Stanley #358 Mitre box. No link, no PM. No price….no sale.
> 
> - bandit571


Do you really think that a thread on a message board is the go-to method for contracting services? If you're really serious, go to the website, send an email, and give a reasonable amount of time for a response given that it's a) a weekend b) a holiday and c) a one-man operation.

This drama is just too dramatical.



> Can all of this BS please stop?
> 
> - theoldfart


One can only hope. My sincere belief is that the BS has long been there but never called out consistently enough to quash it. Derailed threads are no fun, but letting crankity behavior continue unabated hasn't worked out too well, either. Apologies and thanks.


----------



## donwilwol

ok, I'm convinced. Bandit won't be back to this thread.


----------



## ShaneA

^whoa! Makes me glad I got my saw order in last fall. Bob was certainly easy to work with. Maybe that makes mine some sort of collectors item?


----------



## TheFridge

> ^whoa! Makes me glad I got my saw order in last fall. Bob was certainly easy to work with. Maybe that makes mine some sort of collectors item?
> 
> - ShaneA


I have one already but I've been lazy about ordering a custom gents saw that I wanted. Well bob, I sorely appreciate the one I have and look forward to seeing other stuff from you. The repro work sounds awesome. You could always do a Montana mountain goats head saw 

I have someone making me a saw now and it felt like I was cheating on Bob 

Todd, I can always send you dirty pics of my summerfield special


----------



## papadan

I buy quite a few old hand saws. I cut them into machetes and make new handles for them. Really nice to chop brush and cut limbs when needed. I have a half dozen orders now for them.


----------



## TheFridge

It's better than painting them


----------



## DLK

> It s better than painting them
> 
> - TheFridge


Is it?


----------



## TheFridge

Well it's still being used and it'll be sharpened and cutting wood or fibrous material in a way. Me? I'd rather a second life as a machete than a painting  no thanks bob Ross.


----------



## JayT

> I buy quite a few old hand saws. I cut them into machetes and make new handles for them. Really nice to chop brush and cut limbs when needed. I have a half dozen orders now for them.
> 
> - papadan


Inttersting. I would have thought a saw plate would be too flexible to use safely as a machete. Is that not the case or are you reinforcing the spring steel somehow?


----------



## donwilwol

I'm with JayT. I've never seen a machete with a flexible blade. How are they stiffened to actually work like a machete?


----------



## terryR

Bob, and everyone,

a fellow on FB has this vintage saw with a Goat's Head medallion, and would like info, plus encouragement to fix the handle,










I believe the medallion belongs to C T Skelton & Co, Goats Head, Corporate Marks, Sheafbank Works, Sheffield' but haven't been able to find a possible date of manufacter.

Any tips?

Hope the dude joins us here…


----------



## summerfi

Terry, Charles Thomas Skelton & Co. existed in Sheffield from 1859 to 1958. They are listed as factors of saws, meaning they didn't make the saws themselves, but sold saws under their name that were made by others. If the saw has a name stamp or etch that may be helpful in nailing down the date a little closer. The saw has split-nut screws, but in the UK those were used on many saws until around 1920. Judging by the shape of the handle I would say this saw was made around the turn of the 20th century.


----------



## terryR

Thanks, Bob!


----------



## papadan

After 5 1/2 years, did I kill this thread? ;-)


----------



## Johnny7

> I buy quite a few old hand saws. I cut them into machetes and make new handles for them.
> 
> After 5 1/2 years, did I kill this thread? ;-)
> 
> - papadan


No, you didn't kill this thread, you merely crushed my spirit


----------



## papadan

> No, you didn t kill this thread, you merely crushed my spirit
> 
> - Johnny7


Sorry! ;-(


----------



## TheFridge

Hahahaha


----------



## chrisstef

Sending out the bat signal. A fellow LJ in distress. I suggested removing the spine and resetting the plate.


----------



## donwilwol

interesting handle making for a D8

http://www.timetestedtools.net/2017/01/11/making-a-saw-handle-for-a-disston-d8/


----------



## DonBroussard

Nice work on the thumbie handle, DonW. Nice pics of the process too.


----------



## TheFridge

> Nice work on the thumbie handle, DonW. Nice pics of the process too.
> 
> - Don Broussard


Ditto. The whole process was pretty sweet. Man I want some metal working tools.


----------



## WillliamMSP

Very cool stuff, DonW!


----------



## onoitsmatt

Nice handle Don! And thanks for sharing your process!


----------



## Brit

That was a terrific blog Don, I was with you all the way. You should make a few extra and sell them as most people will not have the an awesome workshop like yours to replicate what you did.


----------



## CL810

Incredible work Don! Really enjoyed reading it.


----------



## ToddJB

Don did a terrific job of cultivating a facebook page and website that fosters people to gather and raise the bar in their work on saws, but that article was preformed and written by a guy named James Ruble. His creds are right below the first pic


----------



## TheFridge

Well, a fine job to both then.


----------



## DLK

Don W. Perhaps some day I will send you more apple wood and trade for a D8 handle, should I need one.


----------



## donwilwol

Yea, I can only wish I had that kind of metal working equipment. Of course I would then need to learn to use it. I just edited it and posted it so it wouldn't get lost like so much other information.

Send James a note if you're interested in having one made.


----------



## ErikF

Nice build on that handle.


----------



## DLK

> Send James a note if you re interested in having one made.
> 
> - Don W


I see. Somehow I thought you were the author. The Bob page mentioned lives down the street from me.


----------



## summerfi

Two more saws checked off my backlog list. The apple handle (left) is going to England while the walnut handle (right) is going to Michigan.


----------



## TheFridge

So, I'm looking to source some parts for a crosscut gents saw. Wondering what is realistically the smallest ppi I could use and still sharpen it.

Thinking 8" long with only 1" under the spine.

This is specifically for cutting dovetails and such with end grain into long grain.

Kinda like the side panel of the taller necklace drawer deal all the way to the right. I used a zona razor saw (I believe) for those and it was sufficient at best. Would like a dedicated fine crosscut.










Any help is mucho apprecíado.


----------



## summerfi

Fridge, I make my gents saws at 16 ppi and those aren't too bad to sharpen with a good needle file. I have sharpened a couple of saws down to around 20 ppi, but that's pushing it for me. Definitely need magnification.


----------



## TheFridge

20 is about what I thought without it turning into sharpening hell. Then again, it would only be used for its purpose and wouldn't need to be sharpened often.

Thanks bob


----------



## Dennisgrosen

still a great blog 
to follow I can see . after returning to L j
nearly four years since I last visited the site with a comment 
thank you foks and Don for making it possible to droole a full day

Dennis


----------



## Brit

Welcome back Dennis.


----------



## Dennisgrosen

Thank you Brit 
I still just do it slowly since I still have to remember alot about finding around on Lj ,spelling and posting 
and so on 
But I promise to bring the the smile back on peoples face and the fear of getting through my spelling  

Dennis


----------



## theoldfart

Dennis, glad to have you back. It's been a while.


----------



## Dennisgrosen

thanks Kevin

Dennis


----------



## dbray45

Lee Valley has the fine dovetail crosscut and rip saws.

Sharpening them is a pain.


----------



## woodcox

Richardson Brothers No.8, 18" 12ppi x-cut. 


















Aside from the Richardson etch, there is another next to it. Made Exclusively for Grant & Dunn, Syracuse, NY, Dealers in ? Mechanic's. 









This saw is pre 1900 or so. A little searching found that Grant & Dunn dissolved then with Grant continuing on as Alexander Grant's Sons Hardware Co.


----------



## summerfi

Nice little saw, and in beautiful shape too. Dealers in Tools for Mechanics possibly?


----------



## JethroBodean

Bob - I think it is kind of a Pavlov's Dogs thing, but every time I see some of your saws I have to change my shirts due to all the drool marks. Beautiful.

BTW: That was a great little article you wrote about sharpening a Metal cutting Mitre Saw. I'm a Mitre Box guy and I had never even heard of these.


----------



## summerfi

Thanks for the kind words Jeff.


----------



## duckmilk

Beautiful saw WC. I would like to sometime find a nice small saw like that. Doesn't need to be a Richardson or such, just a good user. There have been times when my 26 inchers have been just a little too long.


----------



## shoofly

Summerfi:

Those two saws are the most beautiful tools I have ever seen. Absolute works of art. I feel like following them to their new homes and 'confiscating' them. You are truly an artist!

Chuck


----------



## summerfi

Thank you Chuck.


----------



## WhoMe

Well, I finally finished my 1896 - 1917 D-12 rehab. It was in decent shape to begin with but I cleaned it up with a sharpening. Like many of these saws, the top horn is a little shorter but everything else was in good shape. Steeped and sanded the handle and finished it with tried ands true oil resin formula. Cleaned and polished all the brass. Cleaned, sanded and sharpened the plate. Thankfully the etch is still decently visible. 
Overall I'm pretty happy with my first saw rehab.


----------



## donwilwol

The D-12 looks perfect


----------



## theoldfart

Correct me if I'm wrong. It isn't that a No.12? I don't see a D on the etch, saw's to old for that.


----------



## summerfi

Looks great. Nice job.


----------



## WhoMe

You are correct OF. That is a No. 12. My bad, the D versions didn't come along till much later. I'm so used to seeing Distons with the D's, it must have stuck in my mind.


----------



## theoldfart

Only reason I picked up on that was I have a 7 and 9 with a similar etch.


----------



## ErikF

Did a couple handles using African Blackwood. Stuff is silky smooth…


----------



## chrisstef

Love the blackwood. Be badass if you could blue a steel saw nut real dark Erik. Kinda like all the black on blacknon black cars guys are trickin out.


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

Very Nice Erik !,,,,,, I agree with Stef, maybe even enamelblack the low areas in the medallion and nuts


----------



## donwilwol

I'll take either one Erik. They look great!


----------



## onoitsmatt

Great few posts on the saw thread in the last day. Great looking saws Mike and Erik. And yeah Bob, yours are always a treat to see too. Nice work, sll.


----------



## ErikF

Thanks guys. I've been thinking of a good way to do a "stealth" saw. I have a sulfur mix that's supposed to darken brass and copper- might be doable but not black. Other thought is to epoxy a carbon fiber disc to the face of the screws. As for the plate, that's a hard one. I think the blue would wear off after use and would be prone to scratching. Anybody know a better way to blacken steel without adding any heat?


----------



## woodcox

Copper in black is coveted Erik, very nice work.

Ed: what is the black coating on blacksmith made stuff?


----------



## woodcox

This is interesting so far. 
http://www.mmsonline.com/articles/do-it-yourself-cold-blackening


----------



## WillliamMSP

There were recently posts from a guy that blackens his hand planes with vinegar, I think. IIRC, he did heat the vinegar, but I think that he said that the heating isn't necessary, but is to speed up the process.

Edit - this is the thread that I was thinking of - http://lumberjocks.com/topics/196154


----------



## DylanC

From Wikipedia:

Ferrous metals are commonly anodized electrolytically in nitric acid or by treatment with red fuming nitric acid to form hard black ferric oxide. This oxide remains conformal even when plated on wire and the wire is bent.

Ferric oxide might cause friction in the kerf, though. Wax might help…


----------



## bigblockyeti

If black oxide caused friction it probably wouldn't be applied to over 80% of the drill bits made.


----------



## ErikF

Black oxide would be a cool look. It seems to hold up well on the coated tools I have in the shop- another item on the project list


----------



## DylanC

All of my black oxide bits are matte finished, implying some degree of surface roughness. I'm not sure you could ever really polish it out to make shine a bit. The assumption I'm making is that matte = rough and shiny = smooth.

http://www.substech.com/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=blackoxidecoating

After-finish treatment. The oxide surface is sealed by oil, wax or lacquer. After-finish treatment not only imparts required cosmetic appearance (matte, glossy, lustrous) but also improves corrosion resistance and anti-friction properties of the part.


----------



## UpstateNYdude

> Thanks guys. I ve been thinking of a good way to do a "stealth" saw. I have a sulfur mix that s supposed to darken brass and copper- might be doable but not black. Other thought is to epoxy a carbon fiber disc to the face of the screws. As for the plate, that s a hard one. I think the blue would wear off after use and would be prone to scratching. Anybody know a better way to blacken steel without adding any heat?
> 
> - ErikF


You could try Super blue gun bluing can find it for about 10 bucks a bottle I use it all the time on zinc and cast iron to turn it black to make it look like blacksmith forged hardware.


----------



## SurfHunter

Hello Everyone,

I've posted this elsewhere, sorry to cross post, Mods if you need to move this here, that works for me. As I'm just trying to gain some info on this item, and for the life of me I can't seem to find anything.

My previous post..

Hello All,

I was at a flea market this afternoon and I came across this vintage hacksaw. I picked it up for $5.00.

I've been trying to find some information on it. However, I can find any pictures that match it or close to it at all.

I'm thinking its a early Miller Falls, Clemson bros. " The Star Company" late 1800's era. but that's why i'm here today, to ask you pros what you think.

The only markings are 3 individual stars spaced out on the upper frame on both sides.

overall length is 14 1/2" long with handle. The length of the frame without the handle is 10".

top of the frame to the bottom of the installed blade is 3"

Solid 1 piece except for the wingnut Believe its steel.



























































































any help or guidance is appreciated.

also picked up this brand new Sheffield Keyhole saw for $5 from the saw vendor


----------



## kwigly

SH,
your hacksaw looks like the "Star Hacksaw No 4" shown in the 1888 catalogue of Wm P Walters Sons for "Wood Workers' Tools and Foot Powered Machinery" 
This catalogue notes that it's a patented design, and a look at patents brings up a July 6 1886 US patent 345,256
see http://pdfpiw.uspto.gov/.piw?PageNum=0&idkey=NONE&SectionNum=3&HomeUrl=&docid=0345256


----------



## SurfHunter

Kwigly,

Sure enough, that's the one.. thank you very much.any collectors for these, like their are for wood handsaws?


----------



## chrisstef

Nice work kwiggles.


----------



## kwigly

> .any collectors for these, like their are for wood handsaws?
> 
> - SurfHunter


Of course there are hacksaw collectors,
that's why the flea was able to price your beautiful old hacksaw at a spendy $5.
There's lots of interesting variations; cast iron handles, wooden handles, adjustable length versions, Lancashire pattern frames, translucent red plastic handles, chromed frames, various screw and lever type blade tightening designs, many manufacturers and models, etc, etc. and you can find NOS blades in various colors too.
With a low entry cost, and lots of variety, what's not to like ? With low competition (SO FAR) its a perfect time to go hacksaw collecting


----------



## MNclone

Found this at a sale today. It is an advertisement plate for foley saw sharpener and retoother. Thought it was pretty cool.


----------



## donwilwol

If you sell tools or parts on a regular basis and want to be listed (and you're not already) let me know the information you'd like published.

http://www.timetestedtools.net/links/


----------



## JethroBodean

I just felt like showing the three saws that mean more to me than any of the other tools I've acquired. They are special because they were passed down to me from my Dad's Dad. They are a Disston D8 Thumb-hole Rip, a Disston D8 XCut and a Spear & Jackson XCut. I've had these since the late 70s, well before I became obsessed with turn of the century Mitre boxes and more recently to Western Saws in general.










The two XCut saws are tied together because my grandfather scratched his initials, HH (Homer Hammock), into the handles.



















The two Disstons are connected by the number 983 on the bottom of both handles and by some gray paint that ended up on both handles.



















My grandfather worked in an Oregon Saw Mill sometime in the late 30s early 40s; I've always assumed the two Disstons came from the mill and that 983 was his employee number. Just a guess. One of these days I'll need to clean these up, but for now I'm still practicing the cleanup techniques on my Flea Market buys.


----------



## donwilwol

Great story for a great set of saws


----------



## summerfi

Very cool. Looks like they've been well taken care of.


----------



## TheFridge

Corradi gold? Anyone use one?

Looking for a quality medium and fine rasp.


----------



## ToddJB

Bob and Red have them. Rojo did an official review, and Bob has one buried in one of these threads -maybe modern hand tools


----------



## TheFridge

Derp. Sometimes the obvious things escape me. Thanks toddles.


----------



## Johnny7

here ya go:

http://lumberjocks.com/reviews/product/8242


----------



## TheFridge

Sometimes. Only sometimes. I forget I can actually search LJs.


----------



## woodcox

My 18" Richardson x cutting 8/4×6 walnut. First real test drive and and it worked nicely. 


















Also a 24" Tyzack I have been trying to fit my hand x cutting 6/4×11 walnut. There is a lot of wood in that handle I can remove for vanity.








Now I just need to find a good saw to go the other way. Maybe more than one.


----------



## terryR

Nice cut!

I couldn't live with the huge full-hand hole on my Tyzack's handle. Made a new one from Bubinga. Quite a bit heavier, and balances that massive spine a little better. The 120 is a fine little saw.


----------



## woodcox

Eeeek! And terry comes through! Nice work, it's georgous. I figured it being a panel saw a little bigger is ok. Though if it doesn't work I'll try it. What pattern did you use there?


----------



## terryR

Thanks! been so long I cannot remember if it was the tyzack pattern or Spear/Jackson.

I use this saw for parting stuff off the lathe so I wanted a better grip provided by a new handle.


----------



## DLK

Looks like tyzack to me.


----------



## rtbrmb

I recently picked up this brass backed saw and was hoping for any information on its manufacture. I have read through page 121 of this thread -a wealth of information for a recent saw addict. Searching on LJ's and the internet in general has not yielded too much information on this saw.

The saw is 10" long and came with 15 tpi. As you can see the brass spine is stamped "Sheffield Made" and the etch reads (I believe) " H. Mozley" - "Cast Steel tool specialist" - "Hastings & Eastbourne"

It feels a lot heavier than other saws I have of similar size and the "x" mark on the tote photo is present on both sides of the tote.

Thanks in advance.

Bill in MI


----------



## summerfi

Bill, the handle design of your saw indicates it is a later model (1920's - 30's perhaps) that was obviously made in Sheffield, England. Who made it is problematic. A google search shows that W.H. Mozley was/is a hardware dealer in a few different communities south of London, Hastings and Eastbourne being two, but it appears they have now moved to Cranbrook and Hawkhurst. It was common practice for hardware dealers (ironmongers) to have tools made for them and stamped or etched with their name. A google image search shows some screwdrivers and table knives that are also marked W.H. Mozley. The X on the handle appears to have been put there by an owner, probably as an identification mark for his tools.


----------



## kwigly

Bill,
Perhaps your saw is from W H Mozley, hardware dealer, advertising in 1919 as a "wholesale, retail, tool and cutlery specialist". (your medallion and handle style looks c1920)
1910 picture (don't see any saws tho)









edit; oops, double post with Bob


----------



## rtbrmb

Bob & kwigly- thanks for the quick responses. Now if I can figure out how to remove the medallion -it's spinning & I am leery of forcing anything and damaging the medallion.

Bill in MI


----------



## chrisstef

Clamp the whole handle face down to your bench Bill. Should be enough pressure to keep er from spinnin. Nice backsaw ya got there!


----------



## rtbrmb

chrisstef - thanks for the suggestion, it worked. Can't wait to get it back in usable condition.

Bill


----------



## TheFridge

Stefs full of useful Facedown tips….


----------



## summerfi

Don W has a new saw. Now there's just one more saw left on my backlog list.


----------



## terryR

Wow!
sorry I waited too late to order a gem like that.


----------



## JethroBodean

Damn that's pretty Bob. Someday I'm gonna be on your backlog, I swear!


----------



## chrisstef

> Stefs full of useful Facedown tips….
> 
> - TheFridge


And when you need the strength of a power bottom, fridge is your guy. Glad the trick worked out for ya bill.

Lacewood bob? Youre handle making skills are sick.


----------



## summerfi

Thanks Stef. Leopardwood.


----------



## Johnny7

*Bob*, your mastery of detail and line is inspiring.


----------



## donwilwol

I was just about to post that saw. I haven't even had a chance to cut any wood with it. I've been working from home, so I've had to be satisfied by sitting at my desk and caressing it. It reminds me of my first date, but I didn't have to buy dinner.


----------



## duckmilk

I really like the shape and detail of that handle Bob, and the leopardwood is stunning.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

I still have the rest of that leopardwood board Bob. I think its value just shot up….lol.

What was that stuff like to work with? Make for good handles?


----------



## DLK

It looks like I may be in on the harvest of some more apple. I don't know what it looks like but tomorrow I am supposed to help the owner with it. He also owns the portable saw mill. He is craver and I have been helping him with hand planes and we do a little trading. Anyway how should it be cut? How thick etc?


----------



## summerfi

Thanks all.

Red, the leopardwood was not difficult to work. A little brittle but not bad. It took a finish kind of weird. The poly wanted to curdle up on it, so light coats worked best. I don't know why, because it didn't seem to be an oily wood.

Don K, for saw handles the apple should be quarter sawn or close to it. A full inch thick rough sawn should be fine since a finished saw handle is 7/8". I'd be tempted to cut some 2" pieces too if the logs are big enough. You never know what you may want to make later.


----------



## DLK

> Thanks all.
> 
> Red, the leopardwood was not difficult to work. A little brittle but not bad. It took a finish kind of weird. The poly wanted to curdle up on it, so light coats worked best. I don t know why, because it didn t seem to be an oily wood.
> 
> Don K, for saw handles the apple should be quarter sawn or close to it. A full inch thick rough sawn should be fine since a finished saw handle is 7/8". I d be tempted to cut some 2" pieces too if the logs are big enough. You never know what you may want to make later.
> 
> - summerfi


Given they way his band saw mill works I bet the best I can do for quarter sawn is get the one out of the middle.
On the Other hand I have always thought the best way to get quarter sawn for small pieces like saw handles would be to take small logs say 12 inch long and then split or rive out blanks with axe and froe. Then clean up with the shop band saw. I have not tried this … so what do you think of this idea.


----------



## summerfi

The board in the middle and one on each side of that would be close enough to quarter sawn to work. Apple logs are usually pretty small diameter, so getting more quarter sawn boards than that is pretty iffy.

Splitting the logs and then working up each chunk could work too. That's how my dad used to work up the maple for his violins. It works fine on straight grain logs, but if you have spiral grain it may not work so well. There's a lot of waist with that technique, but the end product is all quarter sawn.


----------



## DLK

Thanks.

I plan to try this Splitting the logs and then working up each chunk technique to get quarter sawn maple or birch blanks for molding planes this summer. I have at least one quarter sawn section of pretty wide Hophornbeam to try too.


----------



## summerfi

There was a time when I used to cut spruce for musical instrument tops to sell. I split the short logs into quarters and then sawed them into truncated pie slice shaped pieces on my big band resaw. It worked very well, but of course spruce is straight grained and splits very nicely.


----------



## DLK

Well I wonder what I can get locally for molding planes that will give me nice straight grain.


----------



## donwilwol

Good luck splitting hornbeam!


----------



## DLK

> Good luck splitting hornbeam!
> 
> - Don W


 ^ Yes well true and have a log that some one tried to split to prove it. But it machine nice.

*Update:* Well the idea was that because the snow has sugared (formed a hard crust top you can walk on) we had thought it would be easy to just walk out to harvest the apple tree. But a fresh foot of snow fell last night. So don't know what the plan is now. (This means in two days Don W will be in a snowstorm). Probably we will still go. But my truck is laid up waiting for a part to be delivered so with the car I will be lacking 4 wheel drive and have to wait until we are good and plowed out. I'll spend the morning blowing snow off my 300 foot driveway. But I live on a dead in street that is only plowed as an after thought. So stay tuned.


----------



## DLK

^ As I feared there will be a delay in the apple wood harvest. We will wait for better weather.


----------



## TheFridge

> Well I wonder what I can get locally for molding planes that will give me nice straight grain.
> 
> - Combo Prof


I hear that. I'm thinking of finding an 8/4 slab of beech to make some hollows and rounds. I'd be open to suggestions on another species good for moulding planes.


----------



## summerfi

Spring's not far away Don. At least that's what I keep telling myself. I haven't seen the ground since mid-November.

If any of you fellows find a source for quarter sawn beech, I'd be interested in some. I've tried several times with no success. European is best, but I'd take American.


----------



## TheFridge

Bob, the provisional plan is to get a slab of European beech from here http://brazosfp.com/product-category/hardwood-lumber/domestic/
They have a local branch not far away. If I do, I'd be happy to send some qtr sawn. It may take awhile to save my pennies.

Rift sawn for moulding planes?


----------



## summerfi

Thanks Fridge. I'll send some $$ your way if you make a connection. Can't help you on the planes.


----------



## realcowtown_eric

bought yeat another fret saw at an antique show this wknd.

Imagine a trombone slide, sell this one, ade by bonum (european) has such a slide that slips out to a 23" throat.

Never seen one like it, don't know when I'll eve use it but it sure is funky!

Eric


----------



## Slyy

Terry I've been meaning to do an upgrade on the two Tyzak's (of similar vintage) that were my grandfathers. Your 120 looks awesome!

Picked up this little gem last weekend, first split-nut and certainly my oldest saw now. Good excuse to get working on a split but driver too!


----------



## KentInOttawa

> bought yeat another fret saw at an antique show this wknd.
> 
> Imagine a trombone slide, sell this one, ade by bonum (european) has such a slide that slips out to a 23" throat.
> 
> Never seen one like it, don t know when I ll eve use it but it sure is funky!
> 
> Eric
> 
> - realcowtown_eric


Give us a picture, please, Eric. Also, where do you get your fret saw blades from?

Sly - nice, nice, nice.


----------



## summerfi

This is the last of my custom saw orders. This is a beast of a saw, 28" untapered blade 0.042" thick, 6 ppi rip, cuts good. It's on it's way to a small town just north of Henry Disston's hometown of Philadelphia.


----------



## JayT

Lovely work as always, Bob.

The tool world will be lessened by your stepping back from making these beauties, but you need to be able to enjoy your shop time and not feel like you are spending all your time running a business. The pieces you have made will be an inspiration to many to step up their game, me included.


----------



## summerfi

Thanks Jay, much appreciated.


----------



## summerfi




----------



## theoldfart

Bob, your next saw till project?


----------



## terryR

Lovely lines sculpted into that Walnut! Another beauty, Bob!


----------



## warrenkicker

Went by a flea market today. I picked out a few items and the guy just kept lowering his price without me saying anything but that I wasn't really interested in some of them that he was trying to add. 
The item that intrigued me the most was the dado saw I found. He started at $40 and finally took $20 even though I never asked for a better price. It is a George Bishop and has lost one cone bolt and it appears the inside lower horn was cut off. Pretty cool though.


----------



## theoldfart

If that has cone nuts it'll be somewhere around 1875 vintage!


----------



## bandit571

Met up with a fellow from Saw Mill Creek forums today. Each of us drove to a halfway point and met at a McD's.

Reason? He had a saw that should work for a mitre box I had..









Mitre box is a Stanley # 2246A ( 1960s?) and the saw is a Disston-HK Porter 4" x 24" saw. With a very readable etch and stamp. Needs sharpened, but still works nicely enough. Saw MIGHT be older than the box?

Picked the mitre box for $16…...only missing a saw and one pointy screw. Saw today was $20. Plane is to save the Stanley #356for larger cuts, and use this smaller one for stuff like small parts, and moldings. 









I had an old Craftsman 18" backsaw….wasn't even close to the right size. May turn that saw into a carcass saw? Make it into a rip cut saw, for tenons? Or, save it for the GEM folding mitre box.


----------



## saltfly

Well guys I put this on Mads blog and he suggested I post it here. Their was a little talk about seeing these saws in the US since Mads was restoring a few with these metal plates. Don had ask if anyone had seen them in the US. Of course I didn't look at the date he post that question (2011). No not me, that would have been to easy. Well any way I found one in a thrift shop for $7. So I bought it. The handle is small and fits my hand like a glove. The blade is 26" and it has cone nuts and screws, I like the elongated s shaped metal plate.. But to the question has anyone found out who made them in the US? Now there are over 13,000 post here, so you know I'm not going to read through them all, Hell I'm to old and may not live that long to read them. So I don't know if you guys had already discuss them. All yea almost forgot. I also found an old Stanley saw set for $15 with box and paper on how to use it. Don't know if its worth it or not. But I'll tell you guys, I have no interest in sharpening saws. I just take them up the road to guy that does. But since it looked old thought I would ask about it here.


----------



## donwilwol

That is cool. Thanks for posting it!


----------



## saltfly

Yea Don I thought it was neat looking. It will be interesting to see what it looks like once its cleaned up. I'm going to give the electrolysis method you have on your web site a try. Just have to clean out a plastic oil pan I have , to use as a tray. It's the only thing I have around here big enough to fit the saw blade into. Also have you tried doing two saw blades at once? I was thinking of just spacing them apart with two plastic washers and using a screw throw the screw holes for the plus wire.


----------



## summerfi

Various makers produced saws with steel side plates. Most of them were second quality saws. Here is a picture of two in the 1914 Disston catalog.


----------



## donwilwol

I actually don't care for any kind of soak for saw blades, but multiple pieces would work just fine. There are others here that do a lot more saws than I do (i tend to stick to hand planes more) but i find the scrape, then sand method has the best results for saws. I've done the soak on saws, and they've turned out ok, so certainly give it a try.

To be honest, I have even gone mostly "dry" on most hand planes. It's not a one size fits all, so do what your comfortable with.


----------



## JayT

I agree with Don about cleaning up saw plates. I don't worry about soaking either, just some light oil and wet/dry sandpaper.

Speaking of which, I cleaned up a couple saws this afternoon. They were in a donation pile for the missions team at church and I volunteered to clean and sharpen them before they are given to a needy family in Mexico. Didn't go all the way to super shiny and new, but both work pretty decent now.

Before










After










Top is a Craftsman with a plywood handle. Easy cleanup and touch up on the sharpening (10-1/2ppi rip) plus straightening a slight bend in the plate. The bottom saw is more interesting. It's a Disston No 12 from the 1880's that has a couple "modifications". First is that at some point, the saw was shortened to 21inches. My guess is that it was so it could fit in a tool box. The other is that at some point, someone added a split nut Warranted Superior medallion in place of the bottom saw nut. My best guess is they lost the saw nut at some point and used what they had available. Who knows for sure, however.










Sharpening the Disston was an adventure. When jointing the teeth, the toothline was so wavy that by the time the file was touching all the tips, the rear teeth and a short section about 1/3 of the way from the tip were almost completely gone. The most work I've had to put into reshaping and sharpening to date, but it came out OK @ 10ppi crosscut.


----------



## saltfly

That's Some what like I did the first two I did. But I used PB blaster and a wire wheel in my drill. To remove most of the heavy crude. Then wet and dry then finished with black compound on a buffing wheel.


----------



## saltfly

Well I'll tell you , this site has been a bad influence on me. Their was a time that this dumb old fart, went about his simple retired life, looking only for planes. I looked in flea markets, thrift shops and garage sells. And I will say, even though I'm not a collector or a historian. I have maybe more then I need. But since I've been on here and around mads and Don's blogs on hand saws. I now look at those too. Soooo Friday I buy the one with the plate on the side. And today while out picking up my posts for my new wood shop I'm building. I see a thrift shop I hadn't seen before. So do I drive by, nooooo not me. So I stop and what do I find but an old disston 14ppi back saw for $5 bucks. But do you think I can leave it their well It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure Its in my garage now. So the first thing I do is clean a little of the one side to see what is stamped on the back bone. Their is a very light stamp on the plate as well. I can just make it out. So here are a few pictures.










I did just a little cleaning on this side.


----------



## chrisstef

I couldn't turn down a backsaw in the wild either. Nice pickup salty.


----------



## saltfly

Thanks chrisstef . I did pass on one that was made in England with a brass back bone. When you picked it up and sited down the plate , it had a curve in it. I guess if you where cutting curves in wood it would be ok. Guy wanted $45 for it. Needless to say , it still hanging there.


----------



## chrisstef

For what its worth, a lot of backsaws that have a wave in the plate have just slipped in the spine causing the ripple. Most of the time you can pull the plate out of the spine and reset it. Once in a while a good rap on the teeth with the saw standing up on its spine on the bench will straighten it back out too. $45 for a brass back is right the cusp for me depending on the maker.


----------



## saltfly

I can't remember who the maker was. I did look it up when I first saw it 6 mons. ago. I think they were still in biss. But it was made in england. The next time I'm in that shop, I'll have to look again. I'm sure it will still be there.


----------



## rtbrmb

I finally had a chance to clean up the W.H. Mozley backsaw I had posted a while ago-post # 13891.

I attended a saw sharpening seminar with Ron Herman this weekend-but this saw has too high of a tpi for me to start with. Plus I still need a jointer and saw vise.





































I lightly sanded the handle and put on two coats of GF arm-r-seal and a coat of wax. I lightly sanded the plate and lost a little of the etch that was barely visible to begin with.

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to the saw thread-a great wealth of information.

Bill in MI


----------



## JayT

Nice cleanup on that backsaw, Bill. If you want to try and bring the etch back out a bit, I did a "blog post"http://lumberjocks.com/JayT/blog/40491 a while back about one method.


----------



## saltfly

I'll tell you I just can't get my self up to learn how to sharpen a saw. It would be hard for me to sit there that long in one spot. What's crazy is, I layed up for 13 hours waiting for some one. Of course, I was only 21 then. I think I mentioned that their is a old stanley saw set for sale in a shop not to far from me. It has the box and paper work with it. They want $15 for it, but I don't know if that is a good or a fair price for it. I was going to pick it up just because it was old.


----------



## rtbrmb

Thanks for the reference JayT-I actually had read your blog and tried this-it brought it back a little-there just wasn't much to begin with.

Bill


----------



## summerfi

Saltfly - learning to sharpen saws can be very rewarding. Once you get it down, it should take well under an hour to sharpen a backsaw like the one you showed. There are some good learning sources online if you're up for it.

The Stanley saw set could be worth quite a bit more than $15 if it's a desirable model number. The 42X is the one everybody wants. Other models go for a lot less.


----------



## saltfly

Christif I had to go to tractor supply this morning.. So I went back and run into the guy that had that stall. We talked and I showed him the curve in the plate. The good thing was he had done a little clean up on it and had it sharpened. I now don't think the back bone is brass but just plated. But what the haw he let me have t it for $35. It's about 10".

summerfield the set is a 42. It came with the original box and instruction sheet. It shows the 42, 43 and the 442. it also shows the 42 and 42x as the same set. Don't if that's is right or not. But I got it for $15. I'll take pictures of both this after noon and post them. Since its 70 degrees here right now, I'm working on my new wood shop. Got to get things done while it's warm. This week end their calling for snow. Mother nature hates me. also if anyone what's me to post the institute. sheet for history sake, I will.


----------



## saltfly

Here are a few pictures. You guys will have to tell me if the saw is poor fair good or what ever.





































And here is the set.


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## summerfi

The saw is a later Tyzack and appears to be in pretty nice condition. It is from the era when the handles started to be clunky. The spine should be brass. The set is a 42X and is the one everybody wants. It is worth about 4X what you paid for it considering it has the original box and instructions. Nice finds.


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## chrisstef

For fiddy clams I think you've done very well salty


----------



## saltfly

Well thanks guys. But this is just old farts luck. If you guys had not wised me up, these would still be sitting there. So thank you both.


----------



## theoldfart

Old Farts Luck is good to have!


----------



## saltfly

TOF your right about that. But the problem is when you find yourself doing something that was easy when you were 30 now trying to do it at 70. Worked on my new shop today and now my shoulder, arms, back, sides, knees, legs and even my feet hurt. But what hurts the worse is my old butt. Now this is where some smillie faces would come in.


----------



## theoldfart

I don't mind the aches and pains as long as I can do something in the shop. Right now i'm still hampered by a recovering broken thumb, damn skis! I don't remember 30 by the way!


----------



## saltfly

My problem is getting at any of my tools. So that's why I'm building a new one, so I can fill that one up as well. Some times the wife is right, she told me when we retired and move here and had the building my shops in now built. It's not big enough. Dam should have listened.


----------



## saltfly

Well I gave it some thought and agree with summfi. This handle is clunky and featureless. Soooo I'm giving it a try. Never did a saw handle before so. Here is how far I got today with my carving knife, a fill and some sand paper. still along way to go but tell me if I'm going wrong some where. I want to make those horns thinner and bring them more to a point. I also thought of maybe taking that bottom part off. But we will see how it goes.


----------



## bearkatwood

Hey all, I have recently been wanting to get a set of D8 disston saws for my till. I want good quality, but I don't want to go over the top on price. I would like to get a plain handle smaller panel and thumbhole. I would appreciate the expertise that you guys can bring to help me get a good set that I will be happy to own.
Any advise and suggestions would be very welcomed. Thanks!!


----------



## bearkatwood

For instance I was looking at this one. LINK
For a panel saw. 
I have been looking for a nice thumbhole. I want usable, not rusted. I like the older ones with a bit more molded handle. Any comments??


----------



## summerfi

Brian, for the D-8's I would personally look for pre-1928 examples. After that the handles got progressively more clunky through the 1950's. Personally I'm not a big fan of skewback saws. It has nothing to do with performance. It's simply a matter of aesthetics for me, but I realize everyone has different tastes. I like the No. 7's and there are plenty of them around in a full range of sizes. Again, 1928 was kind of an end of an era for all Disston saw models. You might also consider other makes, depending on what pops up. Simonds was equal and some say superior to Disston. Atkins, Bishop, and Jennings are all good saws. And then of course there are my favorites, the British saws.


----------



## bearkatwood

Thanks Bob,
I am looking to have a nice set of saws that are a good example of historically well made saws. I thought a matching D8 set would be nice, but I don't really care. I do like the straight backs as well, but the thumbhole D8 is so comfortable to work with, that I would like one. I appreciate the info Bob, if you have any more advise I welcome it.


----------



## TheFridge

Looking for a dovetail, carcass, and tenon saw for a buddy. Strictly user. If anyone has some floating around gimme a shout please


----------



## bandit571

I have an 18" long backsaw..









Front is a No. 4, the second saw is the 18" saw..
Question: Can it be retoothed into a rip type of carcass saw? Seems I lack one in the shop. The 11ppi is a bit too worn down, maybe re-tooth as a 7 or 8 ppi Rip?


----------



## summerfi

Bandit - in answer to your question, yes an 18" backsaw could be retoothed to a 7 or 8 ppi rip saw, but I'm not sure why you would want to. That would be an awfully coarse tooth pitch for a backsaw of any length. I think it would be hard to use. A large rip baclsaw is considered a tenon saw, and they are normally about 11 ppi. A carcase saw is normally a crosscut saw of about 12" length and about 13 ppi.


----------



## JADobson

Just finished my first saw handle. It turned out better than I was hoping for. Sure feels a lot nicer than the stock handle. Saw is a fairly modern Disston (1950-1990 by the medallion). It still had the Easton's price tag on it when I picked it up.


----------



## bandit571

Thanks. I can send the 18" and the shorter #4 over to the sharpening service that I found locally. The short #4 is filed as a rip. I have a GEM folding Mitre Box that the 18" could be used in. Might make that my Traveling Set.

While dropping off the larger two Mitre Box saws yesterday, I had the fellow check my OLD No.7 crosscut cut. 26" long, full width, and has a nib. Other than a slight curve to the saw line, saw was in great shape. Almost like the original owner had used it once, maybe twice, then just left it hanging on a hook in the barn.

So, when the fellow calls next week for me to pick the larger two back saws up, I may take along a couple more. 11ppi is a bit too small for my eyes to see enough to file.


----------



## summerfi

Bandit - my old eyes do not see well enough to file saws without assistance either. This is what I use. Cheap and effective.


----------



## saltfly

Bob I can relate to that. I have one just like that. I think it came with my ageing package. Also I have to try a new guy to get my saws sharpened. Just wondering what the going prices are for sharpening these days. I use to pay per inch and ppi. But can't remember how much.


----------



## bandit571

Fellow I am trying out charges $14 per saw minimum, or $0.60 per inch…..I do have to drop the saws off at his place, though.

Baby Cataracts in the left eye, seeing double in the right. Up to about 7-8 ppi, I can still see well enough to sharpen, above that….nope. They become a silvery bluurrrr. Even with the lighted Magnifier.

Have two backsaws over there right now, a 4×24 and a 5×28. Both are 11 ppi. Disstons.


----------



## saltfly

Thanks bandit. I have to take mine to the guy myself. Since I've never used him before and it's been a while, I whated a idea what's a fair price to pay now a days.


----------



## rtbrmb

I recently picked up a vintage Spears and Jackson backsaw to refurbish. I got everything cleaned up but the tote is in bad shape & somewhere along the line someone did some awful repairs on it. It gives me an opportunity for my first new saw tote.

I can't figure the type of wood used on this & was hoping for some help identifying. Right now I am considering a chunk of walnut for the replacement.



















same tote with mineral spirits applied


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## summerfi

It's most likely beech. That's what the vast majority of British saw handles were made of.


----------



## TheFridge

> It s most likely beech. That s what the vast majority of British saw handles were made of.
> 
> - summerfi


You'd definitely figure that. I keep looking for medullary rays though.


----------



## BillWhite

I certainly understand the cataract issues. Just got done with the corrective surgery in both of my peepers. Sure has made a difference.
Where is your saw guy, and does he take customer's saws by USPS or UPS?
Bill


----------



## WoodWorkJosh

Hello fellow hand tool woodworkers. I just picked up a couple of 14" tenon saws. They look and feel pretty great but I'm not sure of the dates. If anyone could help me out I would really appreciate it. The first one is a "Yates and Sons" cast steel Sheffield Warranted. It also has A North on the brass back as you can see in the pics. The second one is a "Collier's Dixon" cast steel warranted. Thanks for anyone who will help me.


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## WoodWorkJosh

Sorry here is the second saw


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## bandit571

> I certainly understand the cataract issues. Just got done with the corrective surgery in both of my peepers. Sure has made a difference.
> Where is your saw guy, and does he take customer s saws by USPS or UPS?
> Bill
> 
> - Bill White


Place is called The Cutting Edge. Marysville, OH. He does have a website…..


----------



## summerfi

Josh, according to my British saw book Yates & Wood began making saws in 1856. The name changed to Yates & Sons in 1901. Arthur Collier was a tool dealer in Brixton from 1936 to 1984. The saws he sold were branded with his name but made by someone else. Both are nice looking saws.


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## WoodWorkJosh

> Josh, according to my British saw book Yates & Wood began making saws in 1856. The name changed to Yates & Sons in 1901. Arthur Collier was a tool dealer in Brixton from 1936 to 1984. The saws he sold were branded with his name but made by someone else. Both are nice looking saws.
> 
> - summerfi


Thank you so much for the info


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## chrisstef

That Yates saw makes me warm.


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## TheFridge

> That Yates saw makes me warm.
> 
> - chrisstef


Ditto.


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## WoodWorkJosh

Lol, yea me too, They are both pretty great, and I got them for almost no money. Very excited to restore and use.


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## Tim457

Nice finds, give us some medallion love too, please.


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## WoodWorkJosh

I'm gonna get em cleaned up, then post a couple more pics


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## rtbrmb

Any help dating the manufacture of this Marsh Brothers saw? Looking at the teeth it's fitting that the medallion has a beaver on it. It will have to be replated to be a user. The tote has minor wear & I can see the beech ray fleks through all the grime & dirt on the tote.

Thanks in advance.

Bill in MI


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## TheFridge

Man that looks like old British. If I had access to saws like that I'd have nothing but vintage.


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## WoodWorkJosh

Here is the medallions on the saws. The Collier's doesn't have a medallion, but here's the Yates and Sons.


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## warrenkicker

What is this worth? They are asking $250 for all of the Belsaw equipment.

https://wichita.craigslist.org/tls/6049676886.html


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## WoodWorkJosh

That seems pretty cheap warrenkicker, but I have no clue


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## Mosquito

It's not horrible if it has the ratchet bars and the carriers. Stuff looks in pretty nice shape. But if there are no carriers or ratchet bars, then it's an awfully expensive grinder… I know others here have paid less for a similar compliment of machines (self included), but I know my purchase didn't include the grinder, which is probably a decent percentage of the "worth" here.


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## bearkatwood

It does have some decent equipment there and mos is right. Without the bars, it is kind of like a gun without bullets.


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## summerfi

Bill - The company known as Marshes & Shepherd began operating in Sheffield in the late 18th century, but did not start making saws until the early 1830's. To quote Simon Barley's book, "In the late 1840's the firm became Marsh Brothers, the American trade (handled there by James and Theophilus Marsh, and their agents) was a major factor in the firm's expansion." So the M&S on your saw medallion stands for Marshes & Shepherd, which continued to be used after the name changed to Marsh Brothers. The Marsh Brothers name continued in use until 1954. The company had a long history and was one of Sheffield's most successful saw makers.

Based on the above, we know that the earliest your saw could have been made was the early 1840's, and the latest it could have been made is around 1920, since that is when split-nut screws went out of vogue in England. Just based on the overall characteristics of your saw I'm going to take a WAG and say it was made in the last half of the 19th century, and probably somewhere around 1860, give or take a decade. I'll qualify that by saying I've been wrong before. It is a very nice saw. Do you plan to put a new plate on it?

P.S. - Based on the aligned scratch marks on the screws, it looks like the saw has never been disassembled.


----------



## rtbrmb

Bob-can't thank you enough for all the info you provide on this thread and overall to LJ's.

I do plan on re-plating this saw-but I have some others that need attention first and will need to see what options are out there to re-plate it. This leads me to a question about a saw of this vintage. Is it considered sacrilege to clean up a saw of this vintage and use it, or do most people consider these types a collectors only saw?

Bill in MI


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## summerfi

Bill, I absolutely would clean that saw up, put a new plate on, and use it. There's nothing rare or unusual about it that would make it a collector's item. It's just a nice vintage saw that will be a joy to use. It will be worth more in a restored state than it is presently.


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## CFrye

What do y'all think, original or modified?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/VIntage-wood-handle-split-nut-screwdriver-marked-Germany-saw-repair-gunsmiths-/142321560693?&_trksid=p2056016.l4276


----------



## WayneC

> What do y all think, original or modified?
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/VIntage-wood-handle-split-nut-screwdriver-marked-Germany-saw-repair-gunsmiths-/142321560693?&_trksid=p2056016.l4276
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Modified.
> 
> - CFrye


----------



## chrisstef

Ditto ^


----------



## WoodWorkJosh

Mod


----------



## CFrye

That's what I thought. Thanks. Done right it'd be cool to have, though.


----------



## theoldfart

Yep, mod.


----------



## bandit571

While doing a bit of clean up today, I took down a few saws from the till









Already have another one of these D-8 saws set aside for sharpening, and there is a few No. 7s in the house..









This one is a tad newer than the next one…









Also wiped down 3 D-23s, cleaned up the handle on the 358's saw, and found this in the till..









It is a 7ppi skew back, but NOT a Disston..









Seems to have been made over in Indy, IN?









Been a bit well used. Can't really see the etch, seems to be a bunch of "banners" Atkins make one of these?


----------



## bandit571

It would seem the Atkins saw is a No. 51? Not sure about the age of the saw….


----------



## WoodWorkJosh

Hey everyone, just picked up a couple of Nichoalson 6" double extra slim taper files at my local hardware store. I sharpened one 14" tenon saw and used 1 of the files, which is now garbage. I just wanted to check with everyone to see if that sounds about right. I have a bunch of Bahco files that have been through many saws and are still cutting. I guess Nicholson files have just gone down hill? Just wondering everyone's thoughts?


----------



## bandit571

Made in Mexico files…hit or miss. Might have better luck at Harbor Freight.

Might get around to trying out a Stanley 6" extra slim taper I picked up at Menards the other day…..IF I get around to it…

We'll see how the Stanley version holds up…..


----------



## WoodWorkJosh

Yea let us know how that Stanley works out. HOpe its better than that Nicholson


----------



## CFrye

Josh, how does the tenon saw cut now?


----------



## JayT

Yes, the new Nicholson's suck. A couple weeks ago I touched up one saw and had to really sharpen another. The first brand new file made it through the touch up and about half the next saw, so I had to finish with a second.

I recently purchased some saw files from Corradi in Italy. Haven't had a chance to use them, but on initial inspection, they appear well made. Once I get a chance to put them to work, I'll report back.


----------



## WoodWorkJosh

> Josh, how does the tenon saw cut now?
> 
> - CFrye


It's cuts great, I completely had to retooth it because when I got it the teeth were so far out of wack, but now it cuts like butter. Love it


----------



## summerfi

I've been using 5" XX slim Nicholsons on saws in the 12-14 ppi range because I like the edge shape. They aren't great, but I can get about 3 backsaws out of one. I think it may depend on how much pressure you put on them. Too much pressure and the edges crumble. I bought a box of 4" Bacho's a while back and can't use them. The edges are too wide, leaving a broad flat gullet. For anything finer than 14 ppi I use a high quality needle file.


----------



## DLK

Have you seen this Paul sellers blog and video where he first runs a hacksaw between the teeth befor filling. He clams it extends the life of the file


----------



## WoodWorkJosh

> Have you seen this Paul sellers blog and video where he first runs a hacksaw between the teeth befor filling. He clams it extends the life of the file
> 
> - Combo Prof


That's exactly how I sharpen now, and I still went through that Nicholson file. Grant it I probably could have done 2 more saws since I was cutting and shaping the teeth from scratch. Anything smaller than 14 ppi I also use a needle file


----------



## bandit571

Just got my two Mitre Box saws back from the place…...bill was $30.17 for the two saws. A Stanley 4" x 24",11 ppi, and a Stanley 5×28, 11ppi. Both made by Disston as No. 4s…..

They are sharp, now, surface of the cuts are almost glass smooth. Near as I can tell, they were hand sharpened. 
I also dropped off two other saws today….a No.4 12" 11ppi, and a D-8, 8ppi 26" saw. The fellow charges $0.60 an inch, minimum charge is $14 per saw. So far, very happy with them, and I'll be waiting to see how the next two saws turn out. Hmmm, I do have a 10ppi D-8 that needs a bit of work…...


----------



## WoodWorkJosh

That is some pretty good prices bandit, is he a local or does he take orders?


----------



## bandit571

He does have a web site….The Cutting Edge, Marysville, OH. As for the saws..









The 4×24 sitting in the 2246, and..









The older of the two 5×28 saws, in the #358 box….

Not sure IF he takes orders…..Claiburne Rd. is out in the middle of…BFE…


----------



## WoodWorkJosh

I think if I'm not going to do it myself I would send my saws to Rocky Mountain Saws(rmsaws.com). Thanks for the info though.


----------



## saltfly

Well I finally got some time to finish the little back saw. I will do a few more things to it but not now. I agreed with summerfi that the handle looked to clunky. So after using a few tools, this is what it looked like . Then half way. Then finished. I tried Jayt's method using gun bluing to try and bring up the etching on the plate. But it was to far gone, but it worked great on another saw I have. I'm glad it did, because I really didn't want to loss the etching on that one.



















just starting to change it.









after


----------



## Tim457

Wow, great improvement. What kind of finish, it's a nice mix of darkening yet showing some grain.


----------



## saltfly

Tim the wood was so plain and pail, I wasn't sure what to do. So I went with mini wax dark peacon. I wiped on two coats. Letting each dry for a half hour and then wiped off to expose what grain I could. I also used steel wool to slightly wipe. Then I used two coats of rustolium spray ploy. I read in one of donw's post, that he used and like it. So I gave it a try and I liked it as well.


----------



## Brit

Just spent two wonderful hours catching up on the last 200 posts on this thread. So nice to see it thriving again with some new blood. Lovely also to hear of so many woodworkers sharpening their own saws now. It wasn't that long ago that it was a dying art. I must say it does my heart good to read everyone's saw adventures. Keep it up chaps!


----------



## onoitsmatt

Welcome back, Andy! Whatcha working on these days?


----------



## bandit571

Just finished up sharpening a Disston No. 7, 6ppi rip…...used a Stanley 6" extra slim taper file….turned out this was the second saw that file has done…..might even get a third one out of the file. Thinking a 6 pointer is about as fine of teeth as I can see, at least well enough to file them.

Pictures tomorrow of the saw, IF anyone wants them…


----------



## summerfi

I have a birthday coming up. If anybody wants to get me something, this would be a good choice.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-Early-and-Extra-Clean-Brass-Half-Back-Saw-W-Cresson-Philadelphia-Pa-/112354050148?hash=item1a28d2c064:g:5joAAOSwCU1Ynmay


----------



## Brit

I think that's a bit steep Bob considering it needs sharpening.


----------



## SuppressiveFire

I have a disston D30. I want to know if anyone else has one and an show a picture of th handle?


----------



## BlasterStumps

Are the holes in the saw plate the same as on a D8? 


> I have a disston D30. I want to know if anyone else has one and an show a picture of th handle?
> 
> - SuppressiveFire


----------



## Johnny7

a D30 handle looks just like the thumbhole version of the D8


----------



## SuppressiveFire

On a rip saw it does. I tried a regular D8 handle and it does not look right…..


> a D30 handle looks just like the thumbhole version of the D8
> 
> - Johnny7


----------



## SuppressiveFire




----------



## SuppressiveFire




----------



## FoundSheep

> I have a birthday coming up. If anybody wants to get me something, this would be a good choice.
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-Early-and-Extra-Clean-Brass-Half-Back-Saw-W-Cresson-Philadelphia-Pa-/112354050148?hash=item1a28d2c064:g:5joAAOSwCU1Ynmay
> 
> - summerfi


That is truly a beautiful saw, hope someone gets it for you! Of course if I could afford the asking price I'd just as likely "lose it in shipping".

For that price though I'd probably not even use it, so I think I'll aim for a modern half back or make one myself. It's been on my list for a while, who knows when I'll get around to it.


----------



## summerfi

It's only money. Need my mailing address?


----------



## BlasterStumps

summerfi, Would you share some advice with me on cleaning a saw plate. I have a Disston No 12 that is a really nice saw but is starting to show some rust spots. I took a couple pics of the rust. I don't want to mess it up but would really like to clean it nicely. Left to my own methods, I would probably make a mess of it. If you have any advice, it would be greatly appreciated. 
Mike


----------



## summerfi

Mike, overall your saw appears to be in better than average condition. It has a nice strong etch, and that's a plus. I would remove the handle, since it may have some rust under it too. Then simply sand the plate in straight strokes parallel to the toothline. Start with about a 350 grit and work your way up to as fine of a grit as you feel like. The finer the grit, the shiner it will get. You can use a lubricant with your sandpaper if you want to. Simple green, WD-40, or even water work fine. Dry sanding works just as well in my experience though. For the etch area, wrap your sandpaper around a small block of wood so it stays flat to avoid degrading the etch. After you've finished sanding it, coat it in a good coat of paste wax to prevent future rust, and you're done.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Thanks Bob. I'll give it a try. This saw has a medallion from the 1896 to 1917 era and the handle appears to be walnut. It looks like a full saw plate. If it was ever sharpened, looks to me like it was barely touched. I will get on with cleaning up the saw plate when I get some time. Here's a pic of the handle


----------



## theoldfart

That 12 handle looks different than mine









I assume the design evolved over time.

Edit: just looked at the Diston Institute and it looks like the design changed in the 1880's


----------



## BlasterStumps

theoldfart, That saw is old old. Nice! I'd say you are a lucky fellow to have that rare saw. I have a couple of those saw nuts but have only ever managed to find two. They are a bit rare.


----------



## Johnny7

> ... the handle appears to be walnut.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - BlasterStumps


Highly doubtful-most likely apple


----------



## BlasterStumps

You're most likely right. It just looks different to my eye. I thought they were all apple as well until I saw this handle. I took a look at it out in the sunlight, It looks like it could be a fruitwood.


----------



## summerfi

Agree the handle is apple. It's in great shape.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Bob you live in a nice area. Missoula is where it all began for me back in 1946. We lived in the area there until 1956.

Nice place to live in the warmer months especially. Hope it hasn't changed too much but I imagine it has. Most everywhere is way different now.


----------



## summerfi

This is as nice a place as I've found to live, Mike. The winters get a little long, but not as bad as most people think. I first came here in 1969, and MIssoula has changed a lot since then. Not a small cow town anymore. I just wish more hardwoods grew here.


----------



## FoundSheep

Went to the flea market yesterday, only found this saw that seemed worth picking up.








Medalion says "Warrented Superior", which I've gathered is a common one. No other discerning marks.








It appears to be a 12pt rip cut, which would fill the need for a tenon saw. I may refile it at some point, make it more of a crosscut panel, but this is my first saw save, so I'll take it easy for now.


----------



## FoundSheep

Aaaaand, I've broken the medallion. I got the first 3 nuts off fine, then I got the nut off the medallion, but the medallion was stuck coming out, so I tried to pull it out and it snapped.








How bad of a situation am I now in? Is there any saving it, or do I need to start looking on Ebay?


----------



## BlasterStumps

12 pt rip will be fun to sharpen. : ) The arrangement of the saw nuts/medallion makes it look like a Disston No. 16.


----------



## BlasterStumps

I would just wait until I found another old handsaw with a medallion. You can get by temporarily with just two saw nuts. Another saw will come along.


> Aaaaand, I ve broken the medallion. I got the first 3 nuts off fine, then I got the nut off the medallion, but the medallion was stuck coming out, so I tried to pull it out and it snapped.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How bad of a situation am I now in? Is there any saving it, or do I need to start looking on Ebay?
> 
> - FoundSheep


----------



## duckmilk

You can probably find another medallion on flea bay.


----------



## bandit571

have a saw til a-building in the shop right now. may be a blog, later.

Teaser?









Sides are about done…Have about…17 saws to place in a til….tired of them just hanging around. Two saws may not go in the til..No. 7 that is 28" long (6 ppi) and my "spare" Mitre saw..5×28" plate will be a bit too long. 









Normal saw, handle end, and









The Toe end. D-8 Crosscut. have three of these to place in the til, and 3 D-23s, 3 No.7s, a Challenger #6-1/2 rip saw, an Atkins skew back and an Atkins Ship saw….plus a few others….Might get a bit crowded..


----------



## Brit

> Aaaaand, I ve broken the medallion. I got the first 3 nuts off fine, then I got the nut off the medallion, but the medallion was stuck coming out, so I tried to pull it out and it snapped.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How bad of a situation am I now in? Is there any saving it, or do I need to start looking on Ebay?
> 
> - FoundSheep


It's a disaster. You should hand yourself in to the police right away.

Not really. It is one of the more common medallions and it shouldn't be too difficult to find a replacement.


----------



## Tim457

> Aaaaand, I ve broken the medallion. I got the first 3 nuts off fine, then I got the nut off the medallion, but the medallion was stuck coming out, so I tried to pull it out and it snapped.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How bad of a situation am I now in? Is there any saving it, or do I need to start looking on Ebay?
> 
> - FoundSheep


Short of brazing on a piece of brass and threading it with a die, that one is toast, but I agree, for a common medallion it's not worth that, you should be able to find one.


----------



## FoundSheep

Sounds good. I found one online, so I should be set. As long as none of you outbid me!
As I was cleaning the saw plate, I started seeing the remains of the etch. Hard to read after all the rust, but there appears to be "N.Y.C.R.R." on the bottom. I'll have to post a picture later.


----------



## BlasterStumps

I looked it up as I imagine you have already done. New York State Department, (NYCRR)New York Codes, Rules and Regulations edit: this is most likely wrong. sorry



> Sounds good. I found one online, so I should be set. As long as none of you outbid me!
> As I was cleaning the saw plate, I started seeing the remains of the etch. Hard to read after all the rust, but there appears to be "N.Y.C.R.R." on the bottom. I ll have to post a picture later.
> 
> - FoundSheep


----------



## bandit571

New York Central Rail Road…


----------



## BlasterStumps

Nice handsaw Bandit. Looks in good nick. You should enjoy a till. Only bad thing about a till is that they fill up too fast. : )


----------



## BlasterStumps

Yeah, probably right. 


> New York Central Rail Road…
> 
> - bandit571


----------



## bandit571

Got the last of the old saws out of the Tool Chest, and cleaned off the rust and cobwebs on it..









The "Eagle" is a Pheonix…









Might be a Ship's saw? Atkins saw…..

Cleared a space to hang the saw til…..along with that section of the Dungeon Shop. Maybe after all this clean up this morning, I can get back to woodworking later today.


----------



## BrentParkin

Gee Bob, I followed that link and was stunned by the looks of that saw. Since the photograph was so straight on, I grabbed a JPG of it, dropped it into AutoCAD and rescaled it to what I think is the right size. I think I will have to try making one of these handles eventually!! It doesn't appear that anyone fulfilled your birthday wish though. 



> I have a birthday coming up. If anybody wants to get me something, this would be a good choice.
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-Early-and-Extra-Clean-Brass-Half-Back-Saw-W-Cresson-Philadelphia-Pa-/112354050148?hash=item1a28d2c064:g:5joAAOSwCU1Ynmay
> 
> - summerfi


----------



## woodcox

Nice Brent. I had seen that saw before it was linked here and I saved the images for the same reason.

I just watched an old Marples gent saw bid over $300 from across the pond. Apparently my ten pound bid got under someone's skin


----------



## Brit

Amazing how much spare cash/lack of knowledge/stupidity some people have.


----------



## BrentParkin

Sometimes, I fit into all those catagories. LOL. Case in point…. I have been wanting a Seymour Smith hammer set and after months of waiting for one to show up, it cost way more than I think any saw set is worth. But at least now I don't have to stay glued to the WEB watching for one to show up.

Brent



> Amazing how much spare cash/lack of knowledge/stupidity some people have.
> 
> - Brit


----------



## jmartel

Brent,

Any chance you could share the AutoCAD file for that? I'm sure I could do it myself if worst comes to worst.


----------



## summerfi

Brent - No birthday gifts yet, but there's still time! I second Jmart's request for a file of that handle. Nice job drawing it up. If you could email me the file it would be most appreciated. rmsaws(at)gmail(dot)com


----------



## FoundSheep

Since Brent just posted a rather interesting saw setting device, I was wondering if anyone could provide information on how to set the teeth of a saw. I've read and reread this primer http://www.vintagesaws.com/library/ftj/spring97/spring97.html, and I've done searches through the forums here and elsewhere. I've learned most use the tool that has the two handles and the small anvil. Is that the best or are there other options?

I've read somewhere (and now I can't find the link) that mentions hammer setting has advantages, but I don't know if that was just an opinion or something I worth looking into.

I'm looking to start sharpening, and I'm just trying to rectify everything I'm reading with (other's) practical experience


----------



## BlasterStumps

I don't know about other options but I've tried several saw sets and like using them. I really like the all silver colored one. I think it is an Eclipse or something like that. I have used the blue one (Somax No. 250 ). It's okay but not my favorite of the bunch. The two stanleys are good as well. The all black handled one is a 42X and the other is a Stanley Handyman. I really like the handyman one but it needs the part narrowed a bit that pushes on the tooth of the saw.












> Since Brent just posted a rather interesting saw setting device, I was wondering if anyone could provide information on how to set the teeth of a saw. I ve read and reread this primer http://www.vintagesaws.com/library/ftj/spring97/spring97.html, and I ve done searches through the forums here and elsewhere. I ve learned most use the tool that has the two handles and the small anvil. Is that the best or are there other options?
> 
> I ve read somewhere (and now I can t find the link) that mentions hammer setting has advantages, but I don t know if that was just an opinion or something I worth looking into.
> 
> I m looking to start sharpening, and I m just trying to rectify everything I m reading with (other s) practical experience
> 
> - FoundSheep


----------



## KentInOttawa

I also remember reading about the hammer method being less desirable somewhere, but IIRC the stated preference was for the eclipse pistol style tool because of the easy repeatability. Here's a Paul Sellers video where he shows how to make the plunger on a pistol style saw set smaller. He also goes on a bit describing the settings:





View on YouTube

I have a coarse Somax (from Lee Valley), which is a new Eclipse knock-off, and find it easy to use. I don't need to keep looking for another solution, although I may need to modify the plunger a little finer if I start using some fine-toothed saws. HTH.


----------



## Brit

Foundsheep - I recorded a video on saw sharpening that cover setting the teeth and everything else you need to know. Hope it helps.





View on YouTube


----------



## bandit571

Will have to do…for now..









Work in progress….


----------



## jmartel

Will,

I've only ever used the blue Somax one that I picked up from Lee Valley. Seemed to work just fine. I've only done it on the one tenon saw in my projects, though.


----------



## bandit571

PIP?









New saw til is in place, and loaded up…









Needs a coat of finish…..


----------



## DLK

What keeps that saw till from falling over?


----------



## bandit571

Screws


----------



## DLK

Oh O.K. I though it just might be sitting there.


----------



## bandit571

A cleat under the front edge is screwed to the bench, to make the til lean just a hair more. Then screws go through the bottom of the til, into the bench. Front screws go through the cleat and on into the benchtop. There is a Cleat under the bench top in that area, as well.

Tote was already angled to lean…









When I made the sides.


----------



## duckmilk

> Foundsheep - I recorded a video on saw sharpening that cover setting the teeth and everything else you need to know. Hope it helps.
> 
> View on YouTube
> 
> - Brit


Will, Andy's (Brit on LJ's) saw sharpening video (and blog) are about as good as it gets. Well worth looking into IMO. He will take you through the whole works.

Thank you Andy, I miss that blog


----------



## FoundSheep

Thanks for the information everyone, that's a lot of great knowledge to pick up. It's great to be able to reach out as I'm working through these skills.

Bandit, that's an awesome tote. I especially like that some need to be on extra hooks to hang off the sides!


----------



## BrentParkin

Stumbled across a 14" Cincinnati back saw this weekend. Couldn't leave it even though I don't need it. I was taken by how far a smaller saw company's product travelled from home. Regina, SK is a long way from Cincinnati! It has 13 TPI and although the plate is stained, there is actually no rust on it. There is a tiny piece nicked out of the handle that I guess I should fix.


----------



## ToddJB

Nice pick. I'm pretty sure Smitty is a Cincinnati collector, and has spoken fondly of them.


----------



## rtbrmb

This is a J.L Draper backsaw I picked up on e-bay a few months ago.

12" long, 12 t.p.i., 2 3/4" of blade left under the spine.

I soaked it in evaporust and polished it with scotch brite pads from O'Reilley automotive. There is some pitting but it doesn't appear that it will effect the saws ability to be used (after it's sharpened).

I hand sanded the handle with 220 griit and two coats of GF seal-a-cell, multiple coats of GF seal-a-cell, polished with 0000 steel wool and a nice coat of Lord Sheraton Wood Balsam (as recommended by Brit).
I guess I cheated by posting this before it's sharpened but that's a skill on my to-do list this year. I also couldn't believe the difference when I looked back at the pictures I took when I originally purchased the saw. I still need to do some adjustment on the split nuts.

Than for looking.

Bill in MI


----------



## Brit

Looks great Bill. Should be a nice user once you get it sharpened.


----------



## JADobson

> Regina, SK is a long way from Cincinnati!
> 
> - BrentParkin


Nice to see another Saskatchewanese woodworker here. I do most of my sawing in Saskatoon.


----------



## Tim457

Bill that plate cleaned up way, way better than it looked like it would. Nice work.


----------



## Slyy

Been under the weather lately but got a saw done, early-ish Disston No. 7 I even got to break in the craftsman lathe and make a tool to take her apart.













































The etch is good but the plate was pretty pitted near the heel so I didn't polish the plate up as much as I might have been able to otherwise.


----------



## kwigly

Nice job Slyy. 
I'm impressed with your success with removing and replacing the split nuts. I'm a bit gun shy after some disasters in breaking old split nuts while trying to remove them, or being unable to get the unbroken removed ones to sit flush with the handle when reassembling them. So I didn't take apart my similar No. 7 when cleaning it, and the thin line of rust around the handle indicating more rust under the handle still irritates me (mine also has the one Son etch and a "& sons" medallion that yours has)


----------



## FoundSheep

Bill, that's a great backsaw restoration. I especially like how well the spine improved so you could see the markings.

Definitely want to hear when it's sharpened and cutting again.


----------



## FoundSheep

Slyy, love the D-7. I think the handle really glows, particularly with the shined nuts.
I'm curious about the bright edge on the plate around the handle, was that area take the polish differently, or something else?

Did you make the screw driver? I am curious where to get the split nut bits and other parts.


----------



## donwilwol

wow, great looking #7


----------



## ToddJB

> Slyy, love the D-7. I think the handle really glows, particularly with the shined nuts.
> I m curious about the bright edge on the plate around the handle, was that area take the polish differently, or something else?
> 
> Did you make the screw driver? I am curious where to get the split nut bits and other parts.
> 
> - FoundSheep


I see this on A LOT of saws. I think it's from people trying to clean up the plate without taking the handle off, resulting in them sanding against the "grain", which makes it stand out like crazy. Not saying that's what Jake did, but likely someone before him.


----------



## bandit571

Have a pair of newer Disston/HK Porter saws….one is a "Journeyman" crosscut…









"Etch" was a black silk screen. Handle is a might too blocky…meh

Second saw? It seems to be a little bit older. Handle was plain, and blocky….was









Sanded the handle a bit, rounding all the sharp edges into something that felt better in the hand. 









Plate was taken off the handle, and cleaned up, screws were shined up, and clocked..









There seems to be a bit of "sap wood" back near the horns. 8ppi, 26" crosscut. Has DISSTON USA on the medallion. With keystone, and two "stars". Maybe sometime, when I get bored, again…I might try to sharpen it up. I got rid of a small bend in the plate, too.

Just $1 saws…..


----------



## Slyy

It could be as Todd says with the opposite direction sanding (a serious no-no and not something I did), and if so would have been from some previous owner. I honestly didn't notice any obvious previous restoration attempt signs though. I also wonder if there is some chance that the proximity of the wood tote somehow absorbs moisture close to it that would otherwise accumulate and rust that portion of the plate?

And, mostly vagaries of time Sheep, but prior to 1928 there was only the No. 7 later came the D-7.
And Kwigly & Sheep, as I think most here have, I made my own screwdriver out of a 1/2" spade bit.









It works exceedingly well, was my first self made tool off the lathe, and gave me quite the giddy grin and sense of pride in accomplishment.


----------



## summerfi

Nice job Jake. Gotta love those early No. 7's. Great job on the driver too.


----------



## FoundSheep

Thanks for pointing out the difference Slyy, I didn't catch the No. 7 vs. D 7. Definitely very cool having a piece of history.

Nice idea about the screw driver from the spade bit, I'll have to remember that for the future.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

> Nice pick. I m pretty sure Smitty is a Cincinnati collector, and has spoken fondly of them.
> 
> - ToddJB


And I'm missing the 14" backsaw… argh…


----------



## BrentParkin

Well I just couldn't leave it in the grunge of the old antique shop I found it. I have plenty of other 14 inch saws. I'm sure it would be up for a journey to a home that "needs" it. LOL.

Brent


> Nice pick. I m pretty sure Smitty is a Cincinnati collector, and has spoken fondly of them.
> 
> - ToddJB
> 
> And I m missing the 14" backsaw… argh…
> 
> - Smitty_Cabinetshop


----------



## bandit571

Trying to track down info on a few Disston saws….Rancher? Townsman? Journeyman? There was a backsaw in that line up, if I remember…..thinking they came after the Keystone line ups…..


----------



## kwigly

English teeth ! 
Spear & Jackson
(the saw is the lower/darker part of the pic)


----------



## summerfi

Kwigly, you have to wonder what the guy was thinking when he did that to a nice saw. Or maybe he just wasn't thinking. More than likely he was proud of his great sharpening skills.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Maybe filed that way for anti-kickback : )


> English teeth !
> Spear & Jackson
> (the saw is the lower/darker part of the pic)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - kwigly


----------



## Brit

Not all English teeth look like that. Here's my S&J.


----------



## BrentParkin

I completed my build on a backsaw that I have been wanting for awhile today. The parts came from both Dominic at Two Guys in a Garage and Bob. Bob made the saw plate and sharpened it in a hybrid cut for me. It cuts amazing. Crisp, straight lines right from the start. The saw is a 14" carcass saw. I fashioned it after the Bad Axe bayonet saw. The saw plate is canted starting at 2.5" at the toe and progressing to 2.75" at the heel.
The handle is Wenge and for my first attempt at a saw of my own, I am thrilled. I tried three local laser engravers for doing the medallion and all three of them said they could not make it work out. I'm at a loss as to why. Maybe Bob can shed some knowledge from getting his saw's engraved.

I used the saw quite a bit today it will probably spend a lot of time on my bench. I'll post a bigger image on my projects page if anyone wishes to look closer.

Next up is a 10" dovetail saw with another Wenge tote.

Regards,

Brent
Regina, SK


----------



## Brit

Well done Brent. Very nice backsaw.


----------



## FoundSheep

Very nice saw Brent, the Wenge looks great next to the brass. Did you have any concerns or problems making the handle?


----------



## BrentParkin

No it really isn't that hard to make the handle. In this case I used a template I found online. The Wenge is a bit splintery to work with, but once sanded and scraped, it has a lovely texture to it.

I did the basic cutout first, then cut the mortise for the spine by drilling and chiseling out the waste. Next I used a marking gauge to put a nice deep line down the centre of the blank. Then I used one of my dovetail saws that has the same plate thickness to carefully saw the groove into the handle. Once I could fit the spine and blade into the handle, it was all rasp, file and scraping/sanding work.

A little time consuming, but probably only 2-3 hours of work to get the handle ready.

I'm also going to build a 20" mitre box saw for my Stanley 150 mitre box this summer. I'm thinking of using Mesquite for the handle on that one.

If you are wanting to try your hand at it, I suggest just giving it a shot. You could always practice making a handle for a saw you already have. That way your investment is time and a small piece of wood before trying the whole thing from scratch.



> Very nice saw Brent, the Wenge looks great next to the brass. Did you have any concerns or problems making the handle?
> 
> - FoundSheep


----------



## summerfi

Fantastic saw Brent. I'm glad I could play a part in it. Regarding the laser etching, it requires a powerful laser to etch brass or steel. Many lasers just aren't powerful enough. I'm fortunate to live practically a stone's throw from the fellow who does mine. He does accept laser etching requests by mail, so if anyone is interested you can PM me and I'll give you his contact info.


----------



## BrentParkin

I was reading about a new antique store that was opening its doors for the season this past weekend and I thought why not take a drive out into the country and see what the girl might have found over the winter. I found a couple of saws that I decided to buy just to recover the saw bolts from to fix up some other saws I have.

But I noticed on the better of the two saws a pretty decent etch under the dirt and minor rust. Living in Canada, its funny that I don't have any Canadian saws, but these two appeared to come out of Ontario and one is a Shurly Deitrich and the other a TF Shurly. The saws had seen rough use on a farm somewhere, but I think between the two, I might be able to bring one of them back to user status. I know you guys in the U.S. stumble over hand saws all over the place, but these two might turn out ok for the $5 I paid. I guess at some point the owner added a Warranted Superior Keystone medallion. I guess that needs to go.

It will take some work and maybe it might be easiest to make a new handle, but I find it a lot of fun bringing these back from the dead.


----------



## Tim457

Wait, which handle goes with that etch? That top warranted is a pretty cool medallion. Not bad at all for $5.


----------



## BrentParkin

The etched blade is with the handle with the Atkins medallion. I think I read this morning, that Atkins bought out Shurly. The handle with the etch has a chunk out of the bottom horn.

The handle designs are remarkably similar. Maybe the closest hardware store to the area that these were found carried first and second line saws from Shurly. The girl that owns the antique store said she picked them at different farms. The history part of it would be so cool to know. The area they came from would have been a long way from either Regina or Saskatoon which are the two big cities in our province.



> Wait, which handle goes with that etch? That top warranted is a pretty cool medallion. Not bad at all for $5.
> 
> - Tim


----------



## bandit571

Two saws have returned from being sharpened..









14" backsaw….still a bit hard to start, cuts fast.
And..









My D-8, 8ppi crosscut saw. Means I have two of these in the shop, again..









One MIGHT be a tad older then the other…both have readable etches…

Had to rearrange the saw til a bit….found out another "D-8" was actually an Atkins version…and it is a 7 pointer. 
Might have to do an inventory…someday.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Very nice work on filing those teeth Brit. If I was to try to file like that, I would have to set up my low-power microscope and view what I was doing through it. No way can I see good enough anymore to do a nice job like that. Even with a magnifier ring lamp and head band style magnifier together. 


> Not all English teeth look like that. Here s my S&J.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Brit


----------



## kwigly

Brent,

Your T F Shurly "Arrow Head" saw would have been made in St Catharines Ontario in the 1914-1927 period. Your handle shape is the same as shown in the T F Shurly catalogue for this model saw, and it would have had "The Arrow Head Saw, Vanadium Steel" medallion (where the Atkins medallion is). 
The "Atkins, Indianapolis" medallion would never have been original to this saw as T F Shurly was no longer operating when the Atkins plant in Hamilton merged with Shurly-Dietrich and moved to the Shurly-Dietrich facility in Galt. Atkins used their "Atkins, Hamilton" medallion just prior to this merger, and "Shurly-Dietrich-Atkins" medallions afterwards.
[All these medallions are shown in Bob's excellent Saw Medallion Reference Guide 
http://lumberjocks.com/summerfi/blog/39861 ]

The saw with the beaver logo and "Made in Canada, S.D., Warranted" medallion was, I think, also made in St Catharines, at the R H Smith Co Ltd saw factory, as the R H Smith logo on all R H Smith medallions was the beaver. 
[Shurly-Dietrich gained a controlling interest in the R H Smith Co Ltd business after 1888 (although it still operated as R H Smith Co Ltd until 1914), and I think this is the origin of the "S.D." on the medallion, but possibly this medallion was also used at the Shurly-Dietrich saw works in Galt]
Almost all the saws I have seen of this style have a blade etch for a hardware store or retail outlet, so I've assumed this medallion is equivalent to other "Warranted Superior" medallions used by various saw manufacturers for the saws they made for retailers and hardware stores.


----------



## BrentParkin

Well that is cool information to know!! The Arrowhead saw blade should be an easy clean up, but it seems silly to do it unless I can find one of the Arrowhead medallions somewhere. I guess watching e-Bay will be my best choice. LOL.

Thanks so much for the information though!!

Brent


> Brent,
> 
> Your T F Shurly "Arrow Head" saw would have been made in St Catharines Ontario in the 1914-1927 period. Your handle shape is the same as shown in the T F Shurly catalogue for this model saw, and it would have had "The Arrow Head Saw, Vanadium Steel" medallion (where the Atkins medallion is).
> The "Atkins, Indianapolis" medallion would never have been original to this saw as T F Shurly was no longer operating when the Atkins plant in Hamilton merged with Shurly-Dietrich and moved to the Shurly-Dietrich facility in Galt. Atkins used their "Atkins, Hamilton" medallion just prior to this merger, and "Shurly-Dietrich-Atkins" medallions afterwards.
> [All these medallions are shown in Bob s excellent Saw Medallion Reference Guide
> http://lumberjocks.com/summerfi/blog/39861 ]
> 
> The saw with the beaver logo and "Made in Canada, S.D., Warranted" medallion was, I think, also made in St Catharines, at the R H Smith Co Ltd saw factory, as the R H Smith logo on all R H Smith medallions was the beaver.
> [Shurly-Dietrich gained a controlling interest in the R H Smith Co Ltd business after 1888 (although it still operated as R H Smith Co Ltd until 1914), and I think this is the origin of the "S.D." on the medallion, but possibly this medallion was also used at the Shurly-Dietrich saw works in Galt]
> Almost all the saws I have seen of this style have a blade etch for a hardware store or retail outlet, so I ve assumed this medallion is equivalent to other "Warranted Superior" medallions used by various saw manufacturers for the saws they made for retailers and hardware stores.
> 
> - kwigly


----------



## FoundSheep

Has anyone ever bought just the handle for an old saw? I like the look of the D-8 with the thumb hole, but never seen one in person. Saw several on Ebay, most either questionable condition or a high (and probably worthy) price.

But one person had just the handle. Unsure about the condition or if there was a change in shaping over the years. But it got me thinking, if it would ever make sense to get just the handle (presuming I didn't have a D-8 already that needed a new handle). What are your thoughts?


----------



## summerfi

Will, there's nothing wrong with buying a new handle for a saw, but be aware that if you're going to put it on another plate that the screw holes may not exactly line up. You would think Disston and the other prominent sawmakers would have standardized their screw hole locations, but there are slight variations even in the same model saw. The only solution is to file out the holes in the plate a bit, but on a user saw that may be acceptable.


----------



## bandit571

Two items from today's road trip..









Saw is a Warranted Superior 4" x 24" The medallion is rather plain, can't find enough of an etch and the WS around the edge of the medallion doesn't have any other markings I can make out.

As for that drill? No. 104, Buck Rogers…..spent a whopping $11 for these two…


----------



## jmartel

Will,

Another option to consider is to buy the handle, and put it on a new plate.

http://tgiag.com/sawplate.html

Just get the special drill bit for drilling the saw plate.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Welcome to the family, Mr. 14" Cincinnati Saw from Canada.


----------



## TheFridge

Those saws are dirty. I think should burn them 

That's a good looking family.


----------



## Brit

Very nice Smitty. I bet there isn't another set of those saws in existence anywhere. Is that the complete set now or are there any others that you are looking out for?


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

They might be dirty, you're right Fridge. And that will get them a trip to Montana and the Summerfield Day Spa for Handsaws someday. But otherwise, no fire.

Obscure sets like G.H. Bishop's B-brand "Cincinnati Saw Company" backsaws have to be rare, I'm with you there Andy. ;-) I know there are CSC panel saws, but I'm set in that department with (many) other brands. If there are other sizes of backsaw, I'd still be a player. Are there others? Don't know. I had come across one other 14" on the interwebz years ago, so that one I was tracking.


----------



## BrentParkin

You know Andy may be right about that little family of saws Smitty. I'm glad that saw was adopted into the right family!! Hopefully they stay together forever now.

Regards,

Brent
Regina, Canada Eh!



> Welcome to the family, Mr. 14" Cincinnati Saw from Canada.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Smitty_Cabinetshop


----------



## Brit

I don't know Smitty, but I would guess they made a 16" backsaw.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

That's the top one, Andy. And it's the first handsaw I purchased when this hand tool journey started. It's visible on the lower shelf in this pic of my 'new' workbench.



















It was sharpened / set / tuned by Mark Harrell at BadAxe and is a dream to use. So I have a 16", 14", 12" and 10".


----------



## Brit

Then I think you have the set apart from maybe a dovetail saw.


----------



## bandit571

And maybe one for the mitre box?


----------



## summerfi

Congrats on that set of saws Smitty. The saw gods are smiling.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Documentation is incredibly thin (that I've been able to find) on the etch "Cincinnati Saw Co." I read George Bishop had at least a couple lines of saws in that city before the operation moved to Indiana. He has the patent for the adjustable backsaw he and Disston and Simmons and others produced for a time (mine's a Simmons).










Other than that, I got nothing.


----------



## FoundSheep

Awesome set Smitty. That's cool to be able to have that collection together. Now the question is do they get a special till together!
What interested you to start looking for the CSC set?


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Will, my notes say I went to an auction 14 March 2009 and "got a stack / assortment of handsaws for $1 that included a Cincinnati Saw Co. 16" tenon saw." By the end of that month I was making a box to ship the saw to Mark Harrell because I wanted to know what a sharp saw was supposed to be. Mark suggested a change from 12TPI to 13TPI to make it most suitable for "consistently cutting on 1/2" to 3/4" stock. It's filed cross-cut. And I would never part with it.

Fast forward several years, to the time Schwarz was culling his tool heard in advance of the ATC book. When he blogged about selling a 14" CSC I knew other saws were out there. It's been a hobby of sorts ever since. And they all live in the bottom of the tool chest for now, as the only saws I use out of the chest on a regular basis.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Okayfine. 8" CSC backsaw with Jim Bode right now…










So the search continues.


----------



## UpstateNYdude

> So the search continues.
> 
> - Smitty_Cabinetshop


Does it ever really end?


----------



## Just_Iain

> So the search continues.
> 
> - Smitty_Cabinetshop
> 
> Does it ever really end?
> 
> - UpstateNYdude


No but you get to the point of having to decide if a larger workshop to hold the toys is more important than therapy. 

Iain

(Spoken as someone who at one time owned 50 or so camping stoves).


----------



## theoldfart

^ I feel the same way about mitre boxes(just bought three more!)


----------



## Brit

That's just greedy Kev.

So glad I'm normal. )


----------



## UpstateNYdude

> So glad I m normal. )
> 
> - Brit


What's this normal you speak of?


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Three More ??? Your shop has to be getting rather cramped by now. Kevin, do we need an Intervention?


----------



## Tim457

What exactly would this intervention involve? Tool catalogs and eBay listings? All it seems we know how to do here is enable.


----------



## bandit571

Really bad, when you have to get SPARES for mitre boxes…









Only to find there isn't a spare's slot…


----------



## Brit

Yeah, you only need a maximum of four Kev. That's one for each corner.



> So glad I m normal. )
> 
> - Brit
> 
> What s this normal you speak of?
> 
> - UpstateNYdude


The only tools I could ever be accused of wanting to collect the whole set of are my I. Sorby Punch brand pig stickers. They are all I. Sorby except the 3/4". I would pay handsomely if I ever came across a Punch brand 3/4" as it would be nice to complete the set. I'm not fanatical about finding one anymore though. LOL. The one I have is a nice chisel and looks good alongside the others.



















Apart from this brief excursion into 'collecting', I'm not bothered about having a complete set of anything.


----------



## Brit

> What exactly would this intervention involve? Tool catalogs and eBay listings? All it seems we know how to do here is enable.
> 
> - Tim


I think it would involve us walking out with at least one mitre box each. It's the only way to cure him I tell you. I'm only thinking of Kev's health.


----------



## bandit571

I'd better hide my three, then…mitre boxes, that is.


----------



## donwilwol

It's like thinking of the universe.
You think "how can it go on forever.
But then you think "but if it ends, what's past the end"


----------



## Brit

That's too deep for me Don.

I'll tell you one thing though Don. When I look on ebay.co.uk these days, there isn't much I want to bid on. I think the standard of vintage tools out there now is lower than it was five years ago. Maybe the end is nigh.


----------



## chrisstef

Thats deep yoda.


----------



## theoldfart

In my defense, these box's are the mini style similar to the Langdon Star 41.

Andy, I've been trying to find that 3/4 for you for the last couple of years. I Sorby Punches just don't show up here.


----------



## TheFridge

Y'all should see these girls on the miter box of your dreams thread! They have enough between them all to bury a donkey or two!

But. I know where to go when I'm in the market for one


----------



## Brit

Thanks for looking Kev. I still have an ebay alert for it and Jim Bode has his eye out for one too on your side of the pond.

Remind me what pig sticker sizes you have again as I have some extras that I could send you if you haven't already got those sizes.


----------



## WayneC

> In my defense, these box s are the mini style similar to the Langdon Star 41.
> 
> Andy, I ve been trying to find that 3/4 for you for the last couple of years. I Sorby Punches just don t show up here.
> 
> - theoldfart


I'll keep my eyes out as well.


----------



## woodcox

Has anyone seen this before on a panel saw? For greenwood perhaps?


----------



## Brit

It doesn't look like any greenwood teeth I've ever seen. Looks to me like a bad sharpening job on a crosscut saw.


----------



## theoldfart

but it looks pretty doesn't it?

Next new mitre box over on the mitre box thread


----------



## TheFridge

You dirt dog you


----------



## Just_Iain

Okay Lads & Ladies, the first saw I ordered on eBay has a very faint etching with a 5 in what appears to be a hexagon along with what appears to be "warrant". Warranted Superior Brass and 8tpi (the 8 is stamped below the handle)(with one of the worse sharpening jobs I've seen in person) and advertised 14" length with a Nib on the back. Also very small handle (I wear Woman's Large gloves as Men's are too long and large) to the point that I can only get 3 fingers comfortably in the handle.

Any Ideas?

Iain



P.S Did I mention the crack in the blade?

Edit: Added Photo


----------



## DLK

Why do you need to set up photobucket. You can upload jpg


----------



## DLK

Woodcoxs saw sort of looks like an odd one-man timber crosscut pattern. I bet someones experiment. I can't find that tooth pattern, so I guess the experiment was a failure.


----------



## CFrye

> - woodcox


nana nana nana nana BATMAN!


----------



## woodcox

Lol! Winner ^^

Not mine but, tempted to see it up close.


----------



## Brit

> Okay Lads & Ladies, the first saw I ordered on eBay has a very faint etching with a 5 in what appears to be a hexagon along with what appears to be "warrant". Warranted Superior Brass and 8tpi (the 8 is stamped below the handle)(with one of the worse sharpening jobs I ve seen in person) and advertised 14" length with a Nib on the back. Also very small handle (I wear Woman s Large gloves as Men s are too long and large) to the point that I can only get 3 fingers comfortably in the handle.
> 
> Any Ideas?
> 
> Iain
> 
> P.S Did I mention the crack in the blade?
> 
> Edit: Added Photo
> 
> - Just_Iain


Iain - I'm afraid I can't offer any info on who made your saw, but the crack in the plate is a bummer because other than that and a new sharpening job, it looks to be in good condition. What I can tell you though is that it is a good thing that you can only get three fingers through the handle since the correct way to hold a saw handle is with the first finger extended forward resting on the side of the handle. This helps you steer the cut.


----------



## theoldfart

"correct way to hold a saw handle is with the first finger extended forward resting on the side of the handle"

Andy, your comment reminded me of a small back saw I have. You can see the indentation from the owners finger.


----------



## Brit

Obviously saw some use Kev, pardon the pun.


----------



## theoldfart

Hehe, I like it.


----------



## Tim457

Anyone here good at crosscut saw sharpening? I have a champion tooth one man saw and I'm getting sawdust instead of the shavings I should be getting. I didn't carefully set the rakers, I wanted to test it first. It does cut, but slower than it should and like I said, sawdust instead of shavings. I'll go check the jointing and raker settings, but does anyone know if sawdust means my rakers are too long or too short? The range for rakers is between .08-.30 and I don't have the experience yet to know where in the range to be. I'm cutting green hardwood.


----------



## Johnny7

In my limited experience …

The raker teeth merely clear out that which has been severed by the cutter teeth.
It sounds like the cutter teeth (not the rakers) need attention, since they would ideally be producing shavings (which the rakers would then clear)

btw-if you don't already have it, HERE'S one of the few useful things the US government has every produced and freely distributed.


----------



## chrisstef

Solid link J7. Bookmarked.


----------



## Tim457

That is a solid reference. My reading of it shows what it looks like with the rakers a little too long, and that's also where I learned sawdust isn't good, but it didn't say what it meant. My understanding is the cutters just crosscut the fibers like a knife, but the rakers are what chisel out the shaving. My cutters are at a rather blunt angle and it might be that they aren't digging in enough.


----------



## TheFridge

I'm starting the search for a saw. Need something for thin stock (3/8 max) 17 ppi or so.

8" dovetail
Brass back
Closed handle w lambs tongue
At least 1-1/4 under spine
User shape or better

If anyone has one they are looking to sell or willing to sell then gimme a shout. I'd appreciate it. Retoothing or cleanup isn't that big of a deal either.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Why closed handle on a small saw like that?


----------



## rtbrmb

This is a 10" H. Disston backsaw (1887-1888) I picked up on e-bay over the winter. My intent was to only have it sharpened and make it a user. After looking at the work of other LS's (especially Bob Summerfield) I decided to sand down the handle. Sounded easy but there was a substance on the handle the gummed up multiple pieces of sandpaper so I ended up scraping then sanding to 400 grit. It didn't look like I was going to be able to achieve that nice original apple color-so I finished with a coat of trans tint golden brown, multiple coats of GF arm-r-seal and a coat of Lord Sheraton Wood Balsam.

I decided to take an O'Reilley automotive scuff ball to the plate. I sent it to Bad Axe for a professional sharpening.

Thanks for looking.

Bill in MI


----------



## waho6o9

Outstanding rehab Bill!


----------



## rtbrmb

This is an 18" Drabble and Sanderson brass tenon saw I picked up on e-bay over the winter.

I cleaned up the plate ,all the brass and sanded the handle up to 400 grit. The handle had a crack going through the top two rivets so I glued and clamped it. I can't wait to sharpen it and see how the handle holds up. I finished the original beech handle with 2 coats of GF seal-a-cell, multiple coats of GF arm-r-seal and a coat of Lord Sheraton Wood Balsam. It still has quite a few old battle scars- but I think they add character.

Thanks for looking.

Bill in MI


----------



## TheFridge

Because you don't see many closed handle that small. I like the lambs tongue look as well.


----------



## chrisstef

I think all you get from a disston is the v-notch.

That rehab is sexy. Im so close on mine i need to buck up n finish it. Good push.


----------



## FoundSheep

Bill, those are some amazing rehabs. How do you pick a good saw on ebay? I'm looking for a backsaw, but I've never bought one online before so I don't know what to look for.


----------



## BlasterStumps

look at the closed handled saw pics just posted. Unless I am mistaken, the bottom of the handle would be lower than the tooth line on a 1-1/4" plate. Also the hang of the handle would be off for a small dovetail saw, i would think. A saw with at least 3" below the spine would be where the closed handle would most likely be found.


----------



## TheFridge

A more upright hang angle is perfectly fine because I want to use it sitting down and with my face into the stock.

The bottom of the handle would be close to the toothline yes. It ideally it would be tapered front to back 1/4-3/8 when said and done. When I use a gents saw on 1/4 stock I only use about 2-3" of teeth in the middle because I'm leaning close to keep my eye on the line. So I short stroke it hur hur.

I'm probably just gooing to build one.


----------



## waho6o9

http://www.blackburntools.com/new-tools/new-saws-and-related/slotted-back-saw-kits/index.html

Blackburn has some cost effective saw kits, however, i think you have to sharpen the teeth.


----------



## TheFridge

Yeah I gotta get in touch tomorrow and see. If he could stamp a higher tooth count than 16 on a .015 plate and cut it down to 8" I'd be sold. TGIAG.com has folded brass backs for pretty cheap as well.

Rip I can sharpen. Xcut I can put a file to it but no guarantees


----------



## Michaelbr

Does anyone know what type of saw this is? Im not totally sure as this is the second saw i've ever got and definitely not in my wheelhouse. Thanks for any help.


----------



## UpstateNYdude

> Does anyone know what type of saw this is? Im not totally sure as this is the second saw i ve ever got and definitely not in my wheelhouse. Thanks for any help.
> 
> - Michaelbr


By the looks of it a 28-30" back saw usually used in a miter box for crosscutting.


----------



## waho6o9

Looks like a great saw Michaelbr.


----------



## Michaelbr

I wasnt sure if their is a difference between a tenon saw and miter saw it seemed like tenon saws are much bigger like 16"-22" and this is 26" and cant find much Richardson Brothers information especially backsaws made by them.


----------



## JayT

> I wasnt sure if their is a difference between a tenon saw and miter saw it seemed like tenon saws are much bigger like 16"-22" and this is 26" and cant find much Richardson Brothers information especially backsaws made by them.
> 
> - Michaelbr


I agree that is a miter box saw and looks like it could be a good user.

Besides size, tenon saws are usually filed for rip cutting, while miter saws are filed crosscut.


----------



## FoundSheep

Not sure if anyone else saw it, but Popular Woodworking posted a free bonus section, all about handsaws. It's a bunch of their past articles all available for download.

Handsaw Basics


----------



## chrisstef

Michael - http://hus-saws2.wkfinetools.com/RichBros/tools/rb-ToolsIndex.asp

I typically call saws 12-14" long tenon saws but could also be referred to as carcass saws. 8-10" I call dovetail saws. 16"-28" miter box saws. It certainly doesn't mean you cant use a tenon saw for dovetails or a miter box saw for tenons though.


----------



## theoldfart

Some tenons need a mitre box saw









I used this one from my mitre box









There was an oversize tenon saw called The Beast Master. I don't remember who made it other than than it was one of the contemporary saw makers. Schwartz had one.


----------



## ToddJB

Bad Axe - The Roubo Beastmaster


----------



## theoldfart

Yup, thanks Todd.


----------



## DLK

> Not sure if anyone else saw it, but Popular Woodworking posted a free bonus section, all about handsaws. It s a bunch of their past articles all available for download.
> 
> Handsaw Basics
> 
> - FoundSheep


Thanks.


----------



## Michaelbr

Thanks for the help!


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

A new arrival: 14" Bishop's Patent adjustable backsaw.


----------



## theoldfart

Spiffy Smitty!


----------



## Tim457

Cool. For sawing dados or tenons to a certain depth I take it?


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Yep!


----------



## FoundSheep

Very cool Smitty! I think I saw another one like that on eBay, but I couldn't figure out what it was used for.


----------



## BigPimpin

Cool stuff here!


----------



## FoundSheep

How does that saw work Smitty? Is there a screw mechanism on the other side?


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

An elongated toggle that spins to tighten the handle. Works like an old style bevel gauge in that regard. The saw's "back" is slotted to fit into the handle. So to adjust, loosen the handle, pull the steel "back" from the handle a bit, set depth of saw plate, push it all back together and tighten. pretty straightforward.

This is actually the second one of these I have now. The first saw use on the Not Wall Hung, for dadoes. Worked great for that task.


----------



## JayT

Smitty

Are the two edges sharpened the same or not? Wondering if one is rip and one crosscut or different TPI or what.


----------



## TheFridge

I saw one on jim bode that was advertised as a rip/xcut.

Smitty! Pm sent!


----------



## CL810

^ That's how the one I had was.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

I'll post details later this week.


----------



## bandit571

Three saws picked today…









This was the best of the three..









And has a nib…..Disston medallion….next, going downhill from here…









Handsome devil, ain't he? Even has a bolt in the handle..









As for the third of these "finds" 









With some ugly teeth…









First two were a dollar each, one will be for parts. Third one was about..$3….have some tree trimming to do..


----------



## FoundSheep

Bandit, those double teeth are an interesting experiment. It will take some jointing to file them down.


----------



## FoundSheep

I got a question for the group. Have you ever run across someone who was selling something, but something completely false? Like a mash-up or something, and either they were ignorant or deceitful?
I saw a posting on eBay, for a rare "DISSTON No:7 REMOVABLE BACK SAW". Basically they are selling a No.7 with a mitre saw back. They've even included the (false) Disston catalog except, and the glowing review.








Now, I had to check the Disston institute, to make sure I wasn't missing something. But the outrageous price they are claiming it's worth is insulting.
Would you say something, if you saw it in person or online?


----------



## summerfi

Will, would you please explain why you think the saw is fake and the seller is being deceptive? Disston did sell a removable back for handsaws. Here is the ad from their 1918 catalog.










This is a quote from Disstonian Institute:

"Other specialty saws in the Disston line included the No. 77 handsaw and backsaw models, both with a similar ultra-taper design for use without set; the No's. 240 and 340 steel-cutting hacksaws shaped like a handsaw; *and a No. 7 handsaw with a detachable back for backsaw use.*" (emphasis added).

For everyone's reference, here is a link to the ebay listing: http://www.ebay.com/itm/201663572888

I know the seller to be a highly reputable Australian antique tool dealer. Her 100% positive rating on over 1500 sales tends to support that. My past dealings with her have been without reproach.

If you see something that I don't that is evidence that this is a fake or deceptive sale, please explain what it is so we can all be better educated.


----------



## Johnny7

Thanks Bob, I was scrambling to find "proof" of its existence in the pages of my catalog collection-you beat me to it.

Of interest, to some who may not be aware-Disston made at least one other variation on the No 7 called the "gauge saw". Here is an image courtesy of Jim Bode


----------



## KentInOttawa

> Thanks Bob, I was scrambling to find "proof" of its existence in the pages of my catalog collection-you beat me to it.
> 
> Of interest, to some who may not be aware-Disston made at least one other variation on the No 7 called the "gauge saw". Here is an image courtesy of Jim Bode
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Johnny7


This looks like it was the inspiration for Lee Valley's Veritas® Saw Depth Stop


----------



## FoundSheep

OK, I guess I didn't look hard enough before I posted to the group. I had tried to find out about it, but when nothing turned up I thought it was a fake.
I apologize for jumping to conclusions and accusing her.


----------



## bandit571

> Bandit, those double teeth are an interesting experiment. It will take some jointing to file them down.
> 
> - FoundSheep


Pruning saw, by Disston. Two teeth and a raker shaped like a "W". Thinking maybe it is a #27?


----------



## FoundSheep

> Pruning saw, by Disston.


Thanks, with the other examples of teeth I thought it was a mistake.
Still have a lot to learn about saws.


----------



## DLK

See the Champion Crosscut Saw Tooth pattern for example in this reference guide.


----------



## ErikF

Managed to get my hands on a CNC machine. First item on the "to make" list…saw handle. A little cleaning up of the design and it'll be like I have a Bob Summerfield in my shop.










Here is the machine…who knew Powermatic made a CNC? Got it in a lucky trade.


----------



## summerfi

That is very cool Erik. Hopefully the CNC works cheaper and doesn't complain as much as I do. That's an impressive machine. Keep us posted on how it works out. Also, we need video.


----------



## ToddJB

Bob, you should follow Erik on Instagram if you're on it. He's always posting videos of his cool ass foolery over there.


----------



## Brit

I'm impressed Erik. Like you say, it needs a little cleaning up, but that is the best shaped machine made saw handle I've ever seen. Did you drill the counterbored holes with it too?

There's only one Bob Summerfield though. I mean, can you machine also erect siding for 10 hours a day? )


----------



## ErikF

> I m impressed Erik. Like you say, it needs a little cleaning up, but that is the best shaped machine made saw handle I ve ever seen. Did you drill the counterbored holes with it too?
> 
> There s only one Bob Summerfield though. I mean, can you machine also erect siding for 10 hours a day? )
> 
> - Brit


The machine did the drilling and counter boring. It's a slick machine.

Some action shots…

Video 1
 
Video 2


----------



## planepassion

Whoa….that CNC is some serious kind of cool. I was also impressed by seeing someone use it to drill out the letters and numbers down two sides of a chess board, then also use it to "carve" out the matching inlay pieces. Made me wish I owned one. Of course, I'd then have to park my car outside…and she's my precious Mini Cooper. So, no CNC for me.


----------



## bandit571

Bought two "junker" saw last weekend, mainly for parts. One saw plate was tossed out, a handle was too. Brass hardware found new homes. Which left a decent looking plate, a decently solid handle, and a few extra brass bolts..









Haven't really shined the older brass up, yet. Medallion is a Warranted Superior. Been suggested that this saw could be cut down to a Panel saw size….....

Any suggestions as to a length? Tooth line is 26" right now. Plate is straight, teeth are sharp and well set. Looks to be around an 8ppi…..no etch has been found.

Have a Dremel and some cutting wheels, if need be. Length?


----------



## summerfi

I like 22" for a panel saw, Bandit, but they could be anywhere from 18" to 24", in 2" increments.


----------



## bandit571

I'll give it a try at 22"

Thanks.


----------



## bandit571

Saw is now 4" shorter. Looks to be a decnet enough Panel Saw at 22" long. Will try to get a few pictures of it, later.

The medallion on it has a crack in the rim…the other medallion has been so worn that the body of the Eagle has been worn away, leaving just the wings and feet…....thumb rest?


----------



## bandit571

Pictures of the "new" Panel saw…









8ppi Crosscut….now at 22" along the tooth line..









Handle is not as blocky as it looks, very comfy as is….








Hope I shaped this end correctly….


----------



## ErikF

I've been messing around with the CNC a bit more. Today was a first of taking one of the CNC made handles and using it for a saw. I'm happy with it…mostly happy with the work I was able to do while the machine worked.









Here are a few shots of the process.

Flattening/drilling blanks for grain direction.









Running multiple blanks on one program.









First design for a possible halfback.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Those handles look quite nice Erik.


----------



## FoundSheep

Nice job Erik, that could be a real game changer. How hard is it to set everything up?


----------



## FoundSheep

Has anyone ever had experience with older saws that have rivets? This one appeared on Ebay, no mark or maker anywhere. Teeth are rough, so I'd need to learn how to joint them flat.
But no idea if it would be worthwhile to pick up anyway.


----------



## terryR

Are those rivets or spit nuts that have been sanded past the driver's groove? I can't imagine a quality saw maker using rivets?


----------



## summerfi

Rivets were used on very early saws before the invention of split-nuts. If you see a later saw with rivets, chances are almost 100% they are replacements put there by a previous owner.


----------



## DLK

Terry: I had the same question. Bob: I've learn something new.


----------



## donwilwol

I think they are split nuts as well.


----------



## FoundSheep

The seller says rivets, and they seem to look the same on the other side. Could be something else, but I don't have much experience and haven't seen them in person.
If they are rivets, if it's an old saw, would it be worth while picking it up? Are they hard to tighten (I presume they would have to be peened).


----------



## donwilwol

it would be worth picking up whether it's rivets or split nuts, depending on price and the condition of the rest of it.


----------



## theoldfart

I have a old saw with rivets, the plate is very thin and no makers mark. I'm guessing mine is a secondary line saw.


----------



## bandit571

Cardio for the day….









Board was a 1×10 x 6'....now have 2 boards at 1×10 x 31"

Disston D-8, 8 ppi. sometime between WW2 and the Porter buyout.


----------



## summerfi

These do appear to be rivets. The alignment of the file or sanding marks indicates they have not been removed and reinstalled, and are probably original to the saw. The lack of a makers mark seems to indicate this is a lesser grade of saw, so as Kevin alluded, the rivets could be original. I do not think this is a really old saw based on the handle shape. Possibly 1900-ish or later.


----------



## TheFridge

Bob, I have the plate, I have the back, and I have the sister to the blank I sent you. Its almost saw making time 

Thanks again for the help getting everything together.


----------



## Davevand

when you restore a saw do you clean the saw nuts and medallions? if so how?


----------



## bandit571

Brasso


----------



## summerfi

How much to clean saw screws (as well as the rest of the saw) is a matter of personal choice. Opinions vary widely. I lean toward the "more clean" end of the spectrum. Here's how I clean saw screws. If the medallion is full of grime and gunk, I first squirt it with oven cleaner to dissolve the gunk. After sitting a few minutes, I scrub it with water and a soft brush. I chuck the screws in the drill press. If they are chewed up, I first hit them with 400 and then 600 sandpaper. Then I buff them with 0000 steel wool. I also steel wool the medallion. I've never had an issue with steel wool removing any of the medallion image. This is the quickest and easiest way I've found to clean screws, and it gives an end result similar to more labor intensive methods.

The above pertains to "modern" saw screws. Split nut screws off an older saw are a different cat. Typically they have linear marks from filing or sanding on the saw when it was made. A circular polish left by the drill press would look out of place on these type of screws. I clean them by placing sandpaper on a flat surface and rubbing the screw heads and nuts back and forth in a linear pattern. Again I use 400 and 600 paper. When I assemble the saw, I orient the fine linear sanding marks with the long axis of the saw to look similar to how the antique saw originally looked.


----------



## summerfi

Fridge, glad I could help. I'm looking forward to seeing your saw when it's finished. Filing tiny teeth is a challenge for my eyes. I hope it goes well for you.


----------



## TheFridge

I'm sure it'll be fine enough for a rip saw Bob. I'm looking forward to the challenge. Can't have a typical tote either


----------



## Tim457

Bob, that's good to know that steel wool won't damage medallion image, I assumed it would so I didn't try it.

Unlike most other parts of most antique tools I also like to polish the brass up nicely. Some I've done in the past are now developing a nice even patina.


----------



## theoldfart

On the subject of riveted saws these are the two I have









Front









Back









The rivet are original as far as I can tell. The larger of the two has a very thin plate.


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## FoundSheep

Very cool Kevin, I especially like the pistol grip handle.

Have you ever had to tighten up the rivets?


----------



## theoldfart

Will, they are still in the clean-up que so I haven't touched them yet. They do seem pretty tight and I have no idea how to snug them up. I'm guessing a small diameter punch and an anvil should do the trick.

I like the open handle as well.


----------



## bandit571

Had one handle, seen better days..









That for some reason has a rod all the way through, from top to bottom..









That was riveted in place. Either as built, or by someone trying to fix it…..even the medallion had a crack in it…


----------



## TheFridge

I love me some shiny brass. I love it even when I set it gently on the bench and it gets a half dozen scratches.


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## bandit571

There is in the spares box, a medallion. Brass. Warranted Superior with an eagle..I think. been worn so much, the body of the eagle is….gone. Just the wings, and feet are all that is left. Might use it to replace the cracked medallion.

One: how do you wear a medallion's center away? What kind of grip does that?
Two: How does a medallion get cracked? Just the rim, nothing else.

Amazing what one can find on a $1 junker saw, or two…..


----------



## ErikF

Some saw projects. All handles pictured were roughed out on the CNC. There is still a bit of finish work to do once the handles are shaped but it's very cool to press "start" and come back to a handle that's 80% complete. I almost feel guilty.


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## TheFridge

Nice. and every little bit helps.

I'd have a handle blank if I didn't cut it in half for a marking gauge. Sometimes the urge to use wood instead of hoarding it bites you in the ass


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## rtbrmb

Eric;

Incredible looking handles-anyway you could identify the species-especially the second picture?

Thanks for sharing.

Bill in MI


----------



## ErikF

> Eric;
> 
> Incredible looking handles-anyway you could identify the species-especially the second picture?
> 
> Thanks for sharing.
> 
> Bill in MI
> 
> - rtbrmb


Thanks Bill.

Handle in the second picture is bloodwood.


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## CFrye

Wow, Erik! Beautiful woods you have chosen. Will a saw nut become an 'eye' for that crying eagle handle? Any other embellishments for that one?


----------



## ErikF

> Wow, Erik! Beautiful woods you have chosen. Will a saw nut become an eye for that crying eagle handle? Any other embellishments for that one?
> 
> - CFrye


I gave it a small copper eye and the tears were my attempt at feathers….no feathers on the next one.


----------



## bandit571

Latest saw in the shop…has a label I need to keep…









Millers Falls. Saw is a 5'' x 30" and has the Henry Disston & Sons stamped on the spine…









I also need to bring out the Millers Falls etch on the plate, somehow….

Found it with a #75 mitre box..









Need to shine up it's label , too…









Might take awhile…..


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## bandit571

Got this saw about cleaned up…









and the back view..









I can get the Disston etch to show up on camera, but not the Millers Falls one on the plate…









Brass is cleaned up









Will leave the wood alone, due to that label….
Tried to clock the bolts..one didn't want to be clocked. Saw is a 5" x 30", 11 ppi. and very heavy.


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## ErikF

Thats pretty. Nice work.


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## FoundSheep

That's a gorgeous looking saw Bandit, it cleaned up real nicely. Was it common for Disston to make saws for Miller Falls?


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## bandit571

Disston made mitre box saws for anyone that was making the mitre boxes. Disston did not make any mitre boxes.

All it is, is a No. 4 backsaw on steroids.

I have several other mitre box saws, all marked as being made for Stanley Mitre Boxes.

near as I can tell, this HUGE saw was made sometime between the world wars - 1907 to 1940.

Thanks for looking in..


----------



## Smirak

Hadn't had a chance to post in this thread, but now I do. My dad came this weekend to visit and watch my son play baseball. He brought me the below saw. This saw belonged to my great grandfather and according to the Disstonian Institute, it's a D8 that dates to 1896-1917. It's an 11pt crosscut. It could definitely use a sharpening, but as is, it put a nice kerf into a 2" thick block of cherry I had…this was just the saw plate as I had already removed the handle. This holds great sentimental value for me, but not so much that I won't sharpen it or get it sharpened. This will be a user for me and one to pass on to my great grandkids some time.

Gotta figure out how to add pics…


----------



## Smirak




----------



## summerfi

Smirak, it's a special thing to own hand tools that were passed down through the generations. I think about my dad and granddad every time I use their tools. Your D8 is in nice condition and was well taken care of. It is the old style with 8 inside the D as opposed to the later style D-8. It should serve you well for the rest of your life, and then on to the next generation.


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## BlasterStumps

I'm about to give this old saw a light sharpening but I wanted to show what I'm going to label a progressive tooth pattern that it has. I'm not going to change it, just freshen up the teeth slightly. There is 15 stepped teeth at the front of the saw plate. First old saw I have found with this pattern. It was done so consistently on all 15 that I am wondering if it was machine done.


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## UpstateNYdude

I can see some very minor tooth irregularities so I doubt it, but whoever did the maintenance to it looks like they actually knew how to sharpen a saw. That's the best tooth line I've seen on a saw in I can't even remember when.


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## BlasterStumps

It looks almost like someone spaced it for something close to 3 PPI then partially divided each one. They are not spaced the same as the rest of the plate which is filed 5-1/2 PPI. They are special teeth filed all the same and done for starting the saw, I imagine. I tried it even without doing anything to the teeth and it is fantastic as to how easily this front part of the plate makes it to start the saw in a rip cut. Very smooth and easy. I think if I just give the teeth a clean edge and check the set, I should have a sweet rip saw. Hoping anyway. I am not too thrilled about the handle but I think I will keep it on there. Just kind of clunky compared to my older D-8 thumb hole. Not as good of wood either.


----------



## FoundSheep

That is really interesting tooth pattern, it would be curious to know exactly how it was done.

I was looking on the Disston Institute on the D-8 earlier. Do you think this is an example of what was meant by the advertisement of progressive teeth? I picked up an old D-8 recently, and it needs a complete rejointing (if I want to even do that). I was thinking about the progressive teeth, but I have no idea how to put that into practice and file new teeth to be progressive.


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## bandit571

"Cows & Calfs" come to mind…


----------



## Brit

Blaster - I'm afraid it is just badly sharpened and it will take more than a light sharpening to put it right.


----------



## BlasterStumps

The proof will be in the pudding so-to-speak. I am hoping to get to touch up the teeth today. I'll know more then. 


> Blaster - I m afraid it is just badly sharpened and it will take more than a light sharpening to put it right.
> 
> - Brit





> Blaster - I m afraid it is just badly sharpened and it will take more than a light sharpening to put it right.
> 
> - Brit


----------



## BlasterStumps

Another interesting thing about the saw plate is that it is a breasted tooth line. I studied it for a bit and appears to work well with the front teeth. We'll see, I'm hoping to get to it this PM. I'll let you know how it starts and cuts then.


> That is really interesting tooth pattern, it would be curious to know exactly how it was done.
> 
> I was looking on the Disston Institute on the D-8 earlier. Do you think this is an example of what was meant by the advertisement of progressive teeth? I picked up an old D-8 recently, and it needs a complete rejointing (if I want to even do that). I was thinking about the progressive teeth, but I have no idea how to put that into practice and file new teeth to be progressive.
> 
> - FoundSheep


----------



## chrisstef

I believe that progressive filing would relax the rake on the first few inches of the saw in order to make it easier to start. A 10 degree rake is much less "grabby" than a 0 degree rake. The D8 posted above looks like it was resharpened but never jointed properly. Ive done this myself on crosscut saws and If my fading memory serves me correct its partly due to the set of the teeth and partly due to improper jointing or no jointing at all during its last sharpening.

If you sharpen, set the teeth and don't joint and sharpen again you can end up with every other tooth being slightly lower than its predecessor. As you push the teeth away from each other in setting the teeth they gradually get lower. Set one side stronger than the other and now you've got a tooth line that bobs up and down from tooth to tooth, albeit ever so slightly.

After years of work the saw is dull and needs a fresh sharpening. If tt was jointed during that session Id bet there was only a shiner on every other tooth. When you sharpen you want to eliminate all those shiners. So you file one tooth until the shiner is gone and since you don't have a shiner on the next tooth you dont know when to stop filing so it gets less strokes than the previous gullet. In the end you come away with big tooth little tooth (calves and cows) or you get what is shown above, 2 bunched teeth - gap, 2 bunched teeth - gap.

Ill defer to Andy and Bob, but if I was to sharpen that saw I would joint it then make a run all the way down the saw giving a couple of file strokes in the gullet between those bunched up teeth. Not enough to take away any shiners but enough to try and even out the bottom of the gullets across the saw. Then id lightly joint it again and work every gullet until the shiners were gone. Then id joint and sharpen again. Set the teeth, joint it, and add in the fleam for the final sharpening.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Exactly. Very good description. Not sure if this pic will show it better.












> "Cows & Calfs" come to mind…
> 
> - bandit571


----------



## BlasterStumps

Hi Crisstef,
I don't want to loose the breasting on the toothline so I am not going to do too much if anything as far as jointing the teeth. I have looked at the teeth carefully and see reason to believe it has never been sharpened since new. I was hoping Bob would see this post to get his opinion too. For a later D-8, this one has a lot going for it (except for the clunky handle). It is a nice 5-1/2 PPI for a rip saw IMHO, and it is a 26" medium weight regular pattern skewback with thumbhole handle. And, if I am correct on the toothline, it also has a breasted toothline with progressive filing on the first 15 teeth. [If] all this is correct, it will be the first saw like this I have laid eyes on. I've dealt with quite a few.


----------



## BlasterStumps

I agree it is interesting. You might wait to see if Bob weighs in on this post about this saw. If he thinks it is the real deal, I can take a close up possibly and share whatever measurements I can get with you on those front teeth. It may be the bees knees for starting a rip cut. 
Interesting that you mention the Disston Institute. I have one of the No. 16 saws that is shown on that site. I got it from Erik a couple years ago when he was clearing out some of his saws. I haven't done anything with it but, in order to use it, it should be sharpened. It's been kind of a wall hanger for me.



> That is really interesting tooth pattern, it would be curious to know exactly how it was done.
> 
> I was looking on the Disston Institute on the D-8 earlier. Do you think this is an example of what was meant by the advertisement of progressive teeth? I picked up an old D-8 recently, and it needs a complete rejointing (if I want to even do that). I was thinking about the progressive teeth, but I have no idea how to put that into practice and file new teeth to be progressive.
> 
> - FoundSheep


----------



## summerfi

I agree with Bandit, Andy, and Stef. This is an example of cows and calves and a poor sharpening job. This is not an example of progressive teeth. Progressive sharpening is when the ppi count is higher in the first few inches of the toe, then gets lower on the rest of the saw. Usually there are only two progressive steps in ppi, but sometimes there are three. This is to make the saw easier to start, as Stef said. I've never seen a D-8 with progressive sharpening, and few, if any, Disstons. Perhaps some of the very early ones were.

BTW, this is a thumbhole saw, which should be a rip saw. Cows and calves are far more common on crosscut saws due to the complexity of consistently filing fleam from both sides. Whoever sharpened this saw had to mess up pretty badly to make it the way it is.


----------



## Brit

Also, don't be afraid to joint a breasted saw Blaster. Just hold your mill file freehand and follow the existing curvature until you have a shiner on top of each tooth. The next stage is shaping the teeth and it is this stage where the work needs to be done on your saw. You will need to bias your file so that the teeth end up equally spaced. When the teeth are equally spaced, the gullets will end up the same depth. You file at right angles to the saw plate when shaping the teeth. You may need to joint and shape the teeth more than once to achieve an even spacing/gullet depth. Then you need to decide whether you want to make it a rip saw or a crosscut saw. As Bob said it would originally have been a rip saw. Once you get the teeth equally spaced, you can set the teeth, then lightly joint it and finally sharpen the teeth. It will be a nice saw once you are done and should serve you well for many years to come.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Hi Bob,
Thanks for responding on this. I guess I am wrong then but I still want to touch up the teeth to see what gives with that pattern. I will post my results. I wish you could see this saw first hand. Oh well. Thanks again.
Mike


> I agree with Bandit, Andy, and Stef. This is an example of cows and calves and a poor sharpening job. This is not an example of progressive teeth. Progressive sharpening is when the ppi count is higher in the first few inches of the toe, then gets lower on the rest of the saw. Usually there are only two progressive steps in ppi, but sometimes there are three. This is to make the saw easier to start, as Stef said. I ve never seen a D-8 with progressive sharpening, and few, if any, Disstons. Perhaps some of the very early ones were.
> 
> BTW, this is a thumbhole saw, which should be a rip saw. Cows and calves are far more common on crosscut saws due to the complexity of consistently filing fleam from both sides. Whoever sharpened this saw had to mess up pretty badly to make it the way it is.
> 
> - summerfi


----------



## summerfi

Mike, it won't hurt anything to play around with the saw, touching it up as you say. What I suspect, though, is that the saw wont cut straight after you're done. That's because the teeth leaning one way will be bigger than the teeth leaning the other way. Practicing is good though, so go for it. You should watch Andy's sharpening video if you haven't already.


----------



## BlasterStumps

I have another breasted rip saw and have jointed it. I'm curious as to how this saw will work with only a touch up on the teeth mostly to see what's up with how the front teeth were filed. By the looks of the rest of the toothline, I think I will hold off on jointing for now. It's a real interesting filing and I have to explore it. 


> Also, don t be afraid to joint a breasted saw Blaster. Just hold your mill file freehand and follow the existing curvature until you have a shiner on top of each tooth. The next stage is shaping the teeth and it is this stage where the work needs to be done on your saw. You will need to bias your file so that the teeth end up equally spaced. When the teeth are equally spaced, the gullets will end up the same depth. You file at right angles to the saw plate when shaping the teeth. You may need to joint and shape the teeth more than once to achieve an even spacing/gullet depth. Then you need to decide whether you want to make it a rip saw or a crosscut saw. As Bob said it would originally have been a rip saw. Once you get the teeth equally spaced, you can set the teeth, then lightly joint it and finally sharpen the teeth. It will be a nice saw once you are done and should serve you well for many years to come.
> 
> - Brit


----------



## BlasterStumps

Spent a little more time on the D-8 than I had planned but it came out okay. The smaller teeth on the front of the plate do help start the saw. I left them and just touched them up. I went over the rest of the saw once then did joint the teeth and went over them again getting rid of the high spots the file touched. Then a quick sharpening couple of strokes to finish it off. I know I am far from being a good saw filer but I gave it a go anyway. It took a head band magnifier and a magnifier ring lamp along with another lamp for me to see what I was doing with any kind of certainty. The saw tracks straight and cuts fast and feels right when cutting so I'm happy with it. I had a 5 but did not have a 5-1/2 so I'm glad I found that saw. Just don't like the handle. May have to make something to replace it one day.


----------



## bandit571

The handle was designed so the sawyer could use both hands when rip cutting.

Thumb from the Left hand goes through the thumbhole, rest of the left hand wraps over the top of the handle. Right hand uses a "normal" grip.


----------



## WhoMe

> Eric;
> Incredible looking handles-anyway you could identify the species-especially the second picture?
> Thanks for sharing.
> Bill in MI
> - rtbrmb


I would say Pauduk red heart wood with lighter sap wood.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Yes, I know. This is a later handle. When compared side by side to the older one I have, it is easy to see it is not made the same. Very course in comparison. Doesn't have a nice smooth comfortable grip. I might modify it if I keep it. 


> The handle was designed so the sawyer could use both hands when rip cutting.
> 
> Thumb from the Left hand goes through the thumbhole, rest of the left hand wraps over the top of the handle. Right hand uses a "normal" grip.
> 
> - bandit571


----------



## BlasterStumps

I took some time to inspect the set before I started in sharpening it. It was good to go. I may have reduced it a little but that is okay, it still cuts fine.



> Mike, it won t hurt anything to play around with the saw, touching it up as you say. What I suspect, though, is that the saw wont cut straight after you re done. That s because the teeth leaning one way will be bigger than the teeth leaning the other way. Practicing is good though, so go for it. You should watch Andy s sharpening video if you haven t already.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - summerfi


----------



## ErikF

A handsaw project. I came across a picture of a Wheeler, Madden & Clemson No.999 and really liked the handle pattern. Made a CAD file of the handle and cut one out. I really dig the lines. It's a big saw- 10 1/4" dovetail saw to show scale.

I'll be putting together more files for other handle designs. Should be able to offer up some closely replicated replacement handles in the near future.


----------



## donwilwol

That looks great Erik.


----------



## FoundSheep

Oh wow, that is a big saw Erik. How big is that plate in the back?

That would be really cool to get some of the older handles recreated. A Jerome Dietrich "Improved Saw Handle" perhaps? http://hus-saws1.wkfinetools.com/Flint&Co/patents/132,258-Dietrich/132,258-Dietrich.asp


----------



## ErikF

> Oh wow, that is a big saw Erik. How big is that plate in the back?
> 
> That would be really cool to get some of the older handles recreated. A Jerome Dietrich "Improved Saw Handle" perhaps? http://hus-saws1.wkfinetools.com/Flint&Co/patents/132,258-Dietrich/132,258-Dietrich.asp
> 
> - FoundSheep


Hmmmm that's an interesting design ….


----------



## bandit571

Blasterstumps may want an "improved" D-8 Thumbhole handle…..


----------



## BlasterStumps

Something like Erik is turning out on his CNC machine would do pretty nicely : )


> Blasterstumps may want an "improved" D-8 Thumbhole handle…..
> 
> - bandit571


----------



## ErikF

> Oh wow, that is a big saw Erik. How big is that plate in the back?
> 
> That would be really cool to get some of the older handles recreated. A Jerome Dietrich "Improved Saw Handle" perhaps? http://hus-saws1.wkfinetools.com/Flint&Co/patents/132,258-Dietrich/132,258-Dietrich.asp
> 
> - FoundSheep


Missed the second half. The plate is 34"X8"X.042" and 6 tpi.

A D8 is on my shortlist of handles to have files for. All I have so far is the one pictured above and the Disston No. 7.

I had a win today in the saw making, was able to produce a taper ground saw plate. It as my first run so I tried on a small tenon saw plate.


----------



## Tim457

Wow that's cool Erik. Each time I read someone saying the ability to make tapered saw plates is lost forever,I had to laugh. We may not have the huge grinding stones, but we still have the ability to taper metal.


----------



## waho6o9

From FoundSheep ^^

Nice handle no doubt


----------



## bandit571

Two-handed rip saw?

Saw til is just about filled…









Space for two more, about all….


----------



## Brit

Eric - Those are some great engineer's hands you've got there. Great job on the tapered saw plate.

Once you get the thumbhole D8 handle sorted, you should make a left-handed version for us creative types. )


----------



## FoundSheep

Man Erik, that's a massive plate!
Excellent job with the taper grind, that seems like a challenge to get everything lined up. How did you grind it?



> Missed the second half. The plate is 34"X8"X.042" and 6 tpi.
> 
> - ErikF


----------



## FoundSheep

And waho, full disclosure someone else on this forum posted that one before me, but back on page 25-ish. I was reading the old forum thread and saw it, and when Erik started posting about the new handles with the CNC, I thought it would be a fun idea to imagine some of the crazy handles coming back in style.


----------



## ErikF

> Man Erik, that s a massive plate!
> Excellent job with the taper grind, that seems like a challenge to get everything lined up. How did you grind it?
> 
> - FoundSheep


I ground a couple jigs on my surface grinder. Now I can use the contoured jigs to hold the plate during the grinding operation. 


> Eric - Those are some great engineer s hands you ve got there. Great job on the tapered saw plate.
> 
> Once you get the thumbhole D8 handle sorted, you should make a left-handed version for us creative types. )
> 
> - Brit


Andy, I'm sorry to hear about your handicap (left hand).


----------



## BlasterStumps

My next two saws for sharpening …Another D-8, and what I think might be a No. 28 Toolbox Saw. On the small saw, I can see Henry Disston and Sons but the rest of the etch doesn't show up very well. The little guy measures not quite 12" on the sawplate. I have an American Boy which is a bigger saw by quite a bit so I am fairly sure it is not one of those.


----------



## BrentParkin

Really happy today to finish up a new dovetail saw. It will be one of my project saws to take to the July Bad Axe sharpening class next month. The handle template was from Blackburn Tools and is really comfy. The saw balances nicely. Can't wait to see how it cuts.

I also hope to complete a half back saw with a Cresson styled handle to take with me as well. I'll start that tomorrow!


----------



## summerfi

Outstanding Brent.


----------



## TheFridge

Nice work

New stuff  just wanted the 2 English saws. The others I need to find homes for.


----------



## ErikF

Bringing back the combination saw.

Back and tote make a square.

Scribe in the toe end of the back.

Dovetail gauge on the back side.

Inspired by Disston's combination saws.


----------



## donwilwol

Nice design Erik.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Nice, Erik!

Shameless double post, but I was happy with a Disston dovetailer (my first this size and hang angle), also newer Atkins at today's flea.


----------



## BlasterStumps

I have the same problem with the full till and still a couple more saws. I think I have finally assembled a good range of saws but now I need either a better designed till or bigger till. I was wondering if you were in the build stage for a new till yet? 


> Two-handed rip saw?
> 
> Saw til is just about filled…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Space for two more, about all….
> 
> - bandit571


----------



## rtbrmb

Erik - incredible work on your new saw designs, keep it up.

Thanks for sharing.

Bill in MI


----------



## BenDupre

No doubt the answer is burried in this thread somewhere. But what is the appropriate finish for a saw handle? I sanded off the old flaking finish. Just want to restore it to something appropriate that will stand up to use. THANKS!


----------



## summerfi

Ben, like many things about saws, handle finish is a matter of personal preference. Really old saws had no finish on their handles, except perhaps wax. Then varnish came into vogue, but like on your saw, it is subject to flaking, chipping and wear. Many people in the past and present like(ed) to use linseed oil on handles. Personally, I don't like it. It tends to turn the wood dark over time and IMO is a magnet for dirt. Shellac is a preferred finish by some people, and that's probably fine. Others use lacquer. I use a satin polyurethane finish that I think looks nice and holds up well. Some people don't like poly because it can have a "plastic" look. But when the right product is correctly applied, it can look great. It takes a few days to finish a handle with poly, but the end result is worth the wait in my opinion.


----------



## bandit571

> I have the same problem with the full till and still a couple more saws. I think I have finally assembled a good range of saws but now I need either a better designed till or bigger till. I was wondering if you were in the build stage for a new till yet?
> 
> Two-handed rip saw?
> 
> Saw til is just about filled…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Space for two more, about all….
> 
> - bandit571
> 
> - BlasterStumps


Not for a while. saws on the side are too short for the main til, but they are out where they are handy to get to…


----------



## terryR

> No doubt the answer is burried in this thread somewhere. But what is the appropriate finish for a saw handle? I sanded off the old flaking finish. Just want to restore it to something appropriate that will stand up to use. THANKS!
> 
> - BenDupre


Wax. period. Everything else chips, flakes, and wears off with use. So does the wax, but it's easy to apply and doesn't attract dirt and dust.


----------



## BenDupre

> Ben, like many things about saws, handle finish is a matter of personal preference. Really old saws had no finish on their handles, except perhaps wax. Then varnish came into vogue, but like on your saw, it is subject to flaking, chipping and wear. Many people in the past and present like(ed) to use linseed oil on handles. Personally, I don t like it. It tends to turn the wood dark over time and IMO is a magnet for dirt. Shellac is a preferred finish by some people, and that s probably fine. Others use lacquer. I use a satin polyurethane finish that I think looks nice and holds up well. Some people don t like poly because it can have a "plastic" look. But when the right product is correctly applied, it can look great. It takes a few days to finish a handle with poly, but the end result is worth the wait in my opinion.
> 
> - summerfi


I decided to try Arm R Seal. Maybe a few coats and wax over that. Never used this before. Seems to dry really slow. I do not know what the handle material is. It has a pinkish tone to it after sanding and turned a nice red when i arm r sealed it. It has the wheat engraving.

I bought a gallon of rust remover liquid from Menards and soaked the blade. It was covered with rust. That did a good job but cost me $20. The saw was $5. I have heard vinnegar works. Next time I will try that.

After the bath l sanded with 400 and WD 40 cause there was a little gunk. There is still some minor staining but I don't know what works on that. Anyhow it's minor and i can live with it.

The steel saw nuts were brass plated and tarnished. I tried to spin them in my lathe and polish but the thin brass quickly buffed off. The medalion still appears brassy after the same treatment so maybe it's better plated. It's a Warranted Superior medalion with no distinct identification. The plate was also not etched.

I also dragged home a Disston. The etching says D7 with the keystone and scales and script motto. It's 26 inches long and has 8 stamped into the plate. I assume this is the pitch. The handle is plywood. Paid $2 for that one. Not that rusty, looks like someone has scrubbed off the plate. The etching is pretty strong i would say. They Left a little rust around the handle.

I have not touched the Disston. Any advice on how to treat that one? I want to use the saw but at the aame time i do not want to do anything that might hurt its value (if any). I do not like the plywood handle. I am sure the plywood is functional but it looks super cheesy. If I replaced it, what would be a proper material?

Thanks for helping out the noob. I can post a pic later if it helps.


----------



## summerfi

Ben, the Arm-R-Seal should do a good job. From your description it sounds like the saw handle is probably apple. I wouldn't worry about detracting from the value of your Disston D7 with plywood handle. It is a later saw with minimal value anyway. Most saw handles were traditionally beech or apple, but just about any hardwood would work for a new handle. It would be best to use a piece that is quarter sawn.


----------



## BenDupre

Thank you Bob. Now where to find apple wood… it will probably be Cherry. Any suggestions on grain orientation? Parallel to saw plate? Or?


----------



## summerfi

Grain should be perpendicular to saw plate, Ben. That would make it quarter sawn, which is more stable for saw handles.


----------



## chrisstef

I'm in the shellac camp for saw handle followed by wax. I like a 1 lbs cut and padded on over a period of about 45 minutes. Its all personal preference IMO though.

FWIW Ben - if youre using evaporust, you can reuse the stuff. If its got big chunkers in it, filter through some cheese cloth or coffee filters or just discard the bottom portion with rust chuks in it. You can use it until its almost black.


----------



## ErikF

I'm going to be running some reproduction handles over the next few days. If anyone wants one of these three styles- send me a message.


----------



## BenDupre

> I m in the shellac camp for saw handle followed by wax. I like a 1 lbs cut and padded on over a period of about 45 minutes. Its all personal preference IMO though.
> 
> FWIW Ben - if youre using evaporust, you can reuse the stuff. If its got big chunkers in it, filter through some cheese cloth or coffee filters or just discard the bottom portion with rust chuks in it. You can use it until its almost black.
> 
> - chrisstef


I dumped it. Stupid me. It wasnt evaporust though. Is that the best product or vinnegar? Or the green goo (dont know what that is) i was afraid to try CLR is that safe? And what about plane beds? Will these products strip off japaning?

Thanks for wisdom and advice


----------



## JayT

Ben, I prefer to use Evaporust when possible, it's the safest chemical rust remover for the steel. Vinegar and citric acid work, but will start to eat the steel itself if you leave the piece in there too long. That's not a concern for Evaporust. It also will not affect japanning on plane bodies.

I've not used CLR and won't, as it is too caustic and aggressive, IMHO. I think the chances of it damaging something are too high.


----------



## bandit571

We have work to do….









Might..









Take..









A long…









time..









To do….


----------



## donwilwol

I agree with JayT. Vinegar and citic acid will work, but it can also ruin your tool if you're not carful. Evapo-rust is a little more expensive, but safe and reusable.

I tend to not like any type of soaking, but evapo-rust is by far the safest.


----------



## Mosquito

Just make sure whatever you are soaking in Evapo-rust is completely submerged. If it's only partially submerged, there will likely be an etch line where it stuck out of the Evapo-rust. At least with cast iron, not sure on spring steel


----------



## bandit571

Had a backsaw, handle just wasn't right..









I removed the handle off the saw from the Shindig trip..









Turned out the "bolts" on my backsaw were rivets, had to cut them off. "New" handle was a close match









But it did look a bit better..









So, right now I am trying to remove paint splatters, fill a few holes…









But at least this is usable..









One done, a few more to do….


----------



## ErikF

New miter box design. The saw slides and has two directions of tilt. Mostly for joinery work but can be used as a traditional miter box.


----------



## ToddJB

Well isn't that clever! Personal project, or thinking of producing to sell?


----------



## ErikF

> Well isn t that clever! Personal project, or thinking of producing to sell?
> 
> - ToddJB


For sale in the near future. I don't get to do much woodworking these days.


----------



## chrisstef

Supereffinclever!


----------



## ErikF

Video of the box in action.

Miter Box


----------



## bandit571

Well, cleaned another "saw" up tonight…









Pointy end was missing, teeth will need sharpened back up. 









Remains of a logo? " Woodrough & McParlin"?


----------



## DLK

Thats an interesting keyhole saw. I have never seen a "blade clamp" like that.


----------



## FoundSheep

That's a very curious keyhole saw there, I wonder if that holding mechanism is "better" than traditional saw nuts. Of course, since it is so unique, it may not have taken off for a reason, but still.

Did you do anything for the handle wood?


----------



## bandit571

Cleaned the grime off, shined the metal, 3in1 oil wiped on the wood, wipe off the excess.

Would seem that bolt MIGHT get in the way, while in use?


----------



## DLK

The clamp suggests that you could easily turn the blade upside down if needed and/or there were different types of blades available for it.


----------



## bandit571

Handle seemed grooved for the clamp piece. Near as I can tell there is a hole in the wood for the bolt to go down to the blade. Seems to be made that way. may just hang it up with the Disston Keyhole saw…..and see which I like to use.


----------



## BenDupre

Didn't think of taking a before pic but here is the after. Im sure everyone knows what a rusty saw looks like. This one was solid brown and scaley. This was my first try at a rehab. I am impressed with the pink color of the handle. I'm not sure if there is any tint in the Arm R Seal because it seems to be a richer darker version of what was under the flaking varnish i sanded off. Aparently I polished all the brass off of the saw nuts. It must have been pretty thin.


























So does anyone recognize this saw? There is no etching and the medalion just says "warranted superior" without any form of logotype. It's 26 inches long and a toothy 6 pt rip.

I read that a lot of unbranded saws were made by Disston but not branded and sold cheap.

Next i get to learn saw sharpening. Can i use any triangular file or do i need to find a special one?


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Andy "Brit" here on LJs has a post that includes a link the finest saw sharpening tutorial I've ever seen.

http://lumberjocks.com/Brit/blog/36332


----------



## Brit

Just DON'T give to the charity that I mention at the end of the video as my wife and I don't do that anymore.


----------



## DLK

> Just DON T give to the charity that I mention at the end of the video as my wife and I don t do that anymore.
> 
> - Brit


Maybe you should edit the blog.


----------



## Brit

Working on it Don.


----------



## bandit571

IF and WHEN the bench looks like this, again









I have a pair of saws to rehab..
.








One might even be a No.7, with nib….


----------



## rhybeka

Could anyone point me to the posts in this thread that talk about dovetail/carcass saws? looking to get myself one to get familiar with for dovetails and joinery work that's not too heavy but man - there's a lot of makers out there. I'd love a Bad Axe or something but they just aren't in the budget - and I do have a soft spot for old tools


----------



## BenDupre

> Could anyone point me to the posts in this thread that talk about dovetail/carcass saws? looking to get myself one to get familiar with for dovetails and joinery work that s not too heavy but man - there s a lot of makers out there. I d love a Bad Axe or something but they just aren t in the budget - and I do have a soft spot for old tools
> 
> - rhybeka


Okay all you old tool guys don't flame me! I very much like my Veritas dovetail saw. It's modern design but it performs well. It is very well weighted/balanced and rock solid. The back (think it's glass-filled poly) does exactly what you want from a brass back. The open handle is comfortable. Good steel. And it's super affordable at $70.

I won't talk about my throw away dozuki on this thread. But check into it yourself.


----------



## BrentParkin

Absolutely nothing wrong with the Veritas saws if you are on a budget. I have their small crosscut saw and it has been a pleasure to use. I have a love for old restored saws and the lovely new ones being made by places like Bad Axe too. And in fact most of mine are vintage restored saws. But if you are just getting started and want to put yours toes in the water without spending a lot of money, Veritas is great.

YMMV,

Brent Parkin
Regina, SK



> Could anyone point me to the posts in this thread that talk about dovetail/carcass saws? looking to get myself one to get familiar with for dovetails and joinery work that s not too heavy but man - there s a lot of makers out there. I d love a Bad Axe or something but they just aren t in the budget - and I do have a soft spot for old tools
> 
> - rhybeka
> 
> Okay all you old tool guys don t flame me! I very much like my Veritas dovetail saw. It s modern design but it performs well. It is very well weighted/balanced and rock solid. The back (think it s glass-filled poly) does exactly what you want from a brass back. The open handle is comfortable. Good steel. And it s super affordable at $70.
> 
> I won t talk about my throw away dozuki on this thread. But check into it yourself.
> 
> - BenDupre


----------



## chrisstef

Ill also vouch for the Veritas. Ive got the rip and xcut carcass saws and they'll cut dovetails and cut tenons without any problems. Best bang for your buck in the market IMO. Every now and then you've got to snug up the handle though. About 3 seconds with a screwdriver.


----------



## JayT

I started with a dozuki for dovetails and still reach for it when needing to do precision cuts. A good quality one costs less than a decent Western style saw. I now use a Western saw that was received from Wally331 in one of the LJ swaps a couple years ago, but still think a dozuki is a good choice for a lot of people.

I'm the oddball on Veritas. I bought one of the crosscut carcass saws, used it twice and never touched it again, other than to sell it to one of the guys in my woodworker's guild. He loves it. I just didn't like the feel for some reason.


----------



## HokieKen

> Video of the box in action.
> 
> Miter Box
> 
> - ErikF


That is friggin' bad-assed!


----------



## rhybeka

Thanks Ben and JT ! I had the chance to try a veritas saw last weekend and I did like it. I don't know which tpi it was tho.


----------



## duckmilk

^ That is indeed a great design.


----------



## bandit571

Ok, those two "good" saws I was going to rehab…..one is a Keystone Pacemaker..









With readable etch. WAS a 7ppi, was resharpened and stamped as an 8ppi









As for the second saw..









Etches are readable









Stamped as a 7ppi..









Property of B & R RW Co.

Disston No.7….









With nib. 
I think that will do for one day…


----------



## FoundSheep

That No. 7 is awesome, a fine refurbishment. I've been on the lookout for one myself.

I wonder what B&R RW Co. means? Off to google it…


----------



## bandit571

Bennington & Rutland Railway Co. near as I can tell, saw is from the 1890s…..

So, now I have two No.7s with nibs…...both are 7ppi. The latest one is a bit longer than the first No.7 I have.


----------



## bandit571

Now I have to find a decent saw plate for this handle..









The large medallion fits the handle..









There is also an Atkins medallion in the lineup…


----------



## Brit

Nice job Bandit.


----------



## DLK

*So how many user saws do we really need? * I find I typically only use: a thumbhole D-8, a docking saw, a panel saw, a dove tail saw, a tenon saw, a fret saw and a Japanese saw for flush cutting. I would use the miter saw box if I had it out from under the bench and easy to get to. (In my hybrid shop I have large and small bandsaws, a table saw and a sliding compound miter saw.)


----------



## bandit571

Right now, I have too many handles…









But..









not









enough..
.









Plates. 
That little handle?
.









Brass or steel bolts?









Maybe make a small saw out of this one?


----------



## Tim457

I picked up this saw the other day, it's the nicest warranted superior I've ever seen in the wild, with a nicely shaped handle that I assume is older. Can't make out much from the etch beyond cast steel warranted and 107 in the middle. Any info on it would be appreciated. It has a nib but that's not obvious from the picture, and the handle actually looks better than the photo.


----------



## donwilwol

A made a reprint of a couple Simonds books

http://www.timetestedtools.net/reprint-of-the-simonds-mfg-co-s-publications/


----------



## bandit571

Question for the Saw Gurus:









Recently rehabbed this little saw. Handle came with the plate.

Plate is a 10ppi. It was missing part of the toe, and I had to remove another 2" to get back past a bad section.









From the looks of the handle, it never had a medallion. 
There is an etch, faint. A banner runs across, with "CAST STEEL" and WARRANTED. In-between these is what looks like either a bearded fellow, or a coat of arms. Unable to decipher much more.

Not much to go on, but..any clues to who made this little saw?


----------



## summerfi

Tim - here's your saw.
http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/keystone107.html


----------



## kwigly

Tim,
You have a Disston Keystone 107. Some info on Disston's keystone line of saws at http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/keystone107.html
First made 1876. Yours looks late 1800s style. Good find !

Edit; beaten by a cross post from Bob,


----------



## bandit571

So far, it seems that little saw MIGHT be a Disston No. 090…..etched for a hardware store brand….maybe?


----------



## Tim457

Thanks guys. I should have put that together with the 107 and the faint Disston keystone in the etch. I guess it was the sunken medallion that threw me off.


----------



## JethroBodean

OK, I don't know if this is a known saw or if it is nothing special; but I had never seen a saw with the blade going all the way under the handle the way this one does. I found it at my local ReStore so it had to come home with me. The plate is covered in something that gives it an abrasive coating (think emery board) that I think needs to come off.



















So does this thing look familiar to anybody. The Screws appear to be brass, so that would indicate some age to it. And the teeth look to be filed Rip. I beseech the Zen Master of Western Saws for enlightenment.


----------



## bandit571

Disston "Tool Box" saw, maybe….might check the Disstonian Institute and see?


----------



## PPK

Hi all,
I'm new to this forum, but I recently picked up a Disston K1 12" backsaw on Ebay. Is this saw much good? THere's not much rust on it, and I plan to learn to sharpen the teeth (all of which are intact) and make a handle for it.










Mine has a plywood handle that's delaminating, and looks pretty crummy. I've got a nice chunk of osage orange (hedge) that I think would look nice. Any reason why I shouldn't use osage orange? Any tips? I found some handle templates on TGIAG tool works, I think they'll work..


----------



## PPK

Oh, and my goal isn't for this to be a collectible or anything - I want a user! I need a tenon saw, and just couldn't bring myself around to coughing up the $ for a Lie Nielsen or Veritas or Bad Axe or any of those "amazing" ones. And I really don't like the new ones that every hardware store sells with hardened teeth.


----------



## Tim457

I didn't realize they made any with plywood handles, but that would indicate it wasn't from the peak quality era of handsaws. It still will work fine and a great one to learn on. The trick with saw handles is to get the slot for the plate sawn accurately. One way is to shim the existing saw plate when it's out of the handle so that it comes just up to half the thickness of the new hands, then carefully saw to depth or at least enough to get a kerf to guide further sawing.


----------



## TheFridge

PPK I have a couple users I need to part with if your interested.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Jeff, I've seen those before on the 'net, it's a real thing. Like bandit suggested, toolbox saw. A (mostly) marketing thing that got carpenters the same amount of working blade in a shorter saw. To fit into toolboxes / totes.


----------



## summerfi

Jeff - Your saw is one of a few different style saws made with an Andrew's patent handle. The saw blade goes so far into the handle that the blade has a cut out for the handle hole. These saws are somewhat collectable. This picture illustrates the concept, but it is from a slightly different style of handle.










Pete - Osage should make a fine handle for your backsaw. Try to use a piece with vertical grain (quarter sawn) if you can, since that is more stable and is how saw handles are traditionally made.


----------



## PPK

I'll keep ya in mind Fridge, but don't need one right now. Thanks. 
Thanks tim, smitty, summer for the tips.


----------



## bandit571

K-1 Keystone backsaw by Disston. About the same time frame as the R-1 Rancher, and the Townsman saws.

May have been after HK Porter bought out Disston


----------



## JethroBodean

Thanks people. I'll pull the handle off tomorrow and see what I find. Then see if I can't clean the coating off the plate. Maybe the coating has protected an etch. (Hey! I can dream can't I?)


----------



## PPK

Yep, mine looks just like that, 'cept it has a nasty plywood handle….

what's the typical thickness if the handle? Start with 4/4? Make it as beefy as I want to fit my hand?


----------



## BenDupre

Probably want to start with 5/4


----------



## JayT

I've used a healthy 4/4 in the rough state and come out OK, but would agree with Ben that starting with 5/4 is generally better. The saw handles I've done have ended up ~7/8 finished thickness.


----------



## donwilwol

> OK, I don t know if this is a known saw or if it is nothing special; but I had never seen a saw with the blade going all the way under the handle the way this one does. I found it at my local ReStore so it had to come home with me. The plate is covered in something that gives it an abrasive coating (think emery board) that I think needs to come off.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So does this thing look familiar to anybody. The Screws appear to be brass, so that would indicate some age to it. And the teeth look to be filed Rip. I beseech the Zen Master of Western Saws for enlightenment.
> 
> - JethroBodean


I've not seen one before now. Pretty darn cool.


----------



## bandit571

Disston "Original" 1874 model.

"Compact Saw"


----------



## summerfi

http://hus-saws2.wkfinetools.com/z_contReading/wk-Bishop-bullDogSaw/bullDogSaw-BishopGeoH-01.asp


----------



## JethroBodean

Bob - I think you are dead on. I apparently have in my position a Bishop's Bulldog. I'll be interested in finding out if there is anything left of the etch.

Smitty - I agree with the "(mostly) marketing". Once you are an inch or so into the board, the teeth under the handle are no linger in play. Seems like it is really just a panel saw with extra teeth that you have to sharpen. But still pretty cool 100 or so years later.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Very cool indeed!


----------



## Johnny7

Here is the Shurley-Dietrich (Canada) version of the "toolbox saw"


----------



## theoldfart

Are the handles made in two pieces or is it a one piece? Seems the slot for the plate wouldn't leave much material left for a one piece.


----------



## Johnny7

two pieces


----------



## theoldfart

Thanks 7


----------



## bandit571

Two Orphans









Haven't a plate that matches these two….the ones that were on them were wrong, and redrilled..









One is rather plain..









The other a bit fancy…..thinking a No-16ish saw? Not sure what I'll do with them….no plates. WS medallions
There was another in the pile..








But at least it matched a plate..









I'll clean this one up, and see what model number Atkins gave it…IF I can find an etch….
As for the two orphans…..?


----------



## bandit571

Cleaned up the Atkins saw..









24" of saw. 8 ppi, skew back. Found the etch under all that rust….EC Atkins & Co. No. 59. Silver Steel. Medallion and etch both have the AAA logo. Can't quite make out the wording to the right of the etch…..

IF I hold the saw just right, I can read most of it. I have gone over the area with the Gun Blue Paste, and sanded it down, leaving the etch. Haven't decided on refinishing the handle….yet.

Off to look up an Atkins No. 59 on google-fu…


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Zzzzzzz….


----------



## BlasterStumps

You do good work Bandit. Looks like the Atkins saw will be a good user now. You're going to need a bigger till. : )


----------



## bandit571

IDed the saw as an EC Atkins No. 95…...

American made saw…might be a tad older than that 40 year age limit…


----------



## PPK

Can I bother y'all with a couple more questions?

How do you measure the PPI? Is it the first point and last point on the zero mark and the last point at the 1 inch mark, or do you leave off at the point before the inch mark? I count 13 PPI if I count the tooth starting at zero and the tooth ending at one. It was advertised as 12 PPI, so I'm probably counting one too many teeth. Just curious.

Second, what setting do I use on my saw set? I've got this somax - it goes from 4 to 12, 4 being a massive amount of set. The tool is from Lee Valley, and marketed for 12-26 tpi. There's no directions, or I lost them :-(










I just sharpened all the teeth, scrubbed it down and sanded it lightly, and made this new handle. It's turning out pretty well so far. Sharpening is kinda therapeutic! I hammered the teeth flat before cleaning the plate. It has no set and won't cut as is. (I tried)


----------



## DanKrager

There are at least two ways to measure the pitch of saw teeth. Here is a pretty clear description:

DanK


----------



## chrisstef

A rip saw requires less set than a xcut PPK. Theres a mathematical multiplier depending on the thickness of tge plate i believe but i just use as little set as i can get away with. Id set it between 10 and 11 on the dial.


----------



## bandit571

Question: Why did you remove the set in the first place? When you try to put the set back in the teeth, they will break….then you would have to file new teeth….


----------



## PPK

Ahh… It's a 13 PPI / 12 TPI saw! Thanks Dan… My intent is to cut tenons, mostly with this, so I think it'll be ripping mainly. I think i ground the teeth in rip fashion (straight filed). IDK why I took the set out of the teeth. I'm a newb at tool restoring, that's why, lol. I figured it'd be easier to sand the plate and scrub off the rust, and then I could put in a brand new set - I never thought of breaking teeth. Crossing my fingers that It'll go well.


----------



## chrisstef

Just try and set the teeth the same way they were set before PPK. At 13 ppi, if ya pop a tooth not a huge deal. Ive broken more than a few.


----------



## PPK

Hey! nobody warned my I'd sand my fingers raw trying to get the handle smooth. I'm glad I changed my mind and used Walnut instead of the osage orange. It turned out well, though, and looks pretty decent (in my own estimation) after I wiped on some oil wax. I set the teeth too, and only broke two, toward the end of the blade near the handle. It cuts well - quite aggressive! Is that normal for a hand sharpened saw? what makes them bite less/more slowly?


----------



## BenDupre

> Hey! nobody warned my I d sand my fingers raw trying to get the handle smooth. I m glad I changed my mind and used Walnut instead of the osage orange. It turned out well, though, and looks pretty decent (in my own estimation) after I wiped on some oil wax. I set the teeth too, and only broke two, toward the end of the blade near the handle. It cuts well - quite aggressive! Is that normal for a hand sharpened saw? what makes them bite less/more slowly?
> 
> - PPK


Not the expert here but I beleive tooth count and rake angle affect the agressiveness of the cut. Lower tpi is more aggressive. As is steeper rake.

Nice handle!


----------



## chrisstef

Nice handle ^

In short, rake angle will make the saw more / less aggressive. Filed at 90* (angle at the front of the tooth) is a zero degree rake angle and will be the most aggressive. Relaxing that angle to say 85-83*, or 5-7 degree rake angle, will make it less aggressive.


----------



## chrisstef

No idea why thats in bold ^


----------



## Vintage75

Wow..beautiful handle PPK. I love the walnut.

I've been lurking on these forums a while, and haven't read through all of the information regarding saw rehab. I'm just getting started in sharpening/rehabbing saws, and wanted to pick up a pre-1940ish Disston on which to learn/practice, with the hope I could make a good user out of it. I noticed this 3-saw lot on ebay recently, and wondered if the saw mechanics here could give me a idea of how much I'd be getting into if I made the purchase. Obviously, the rust pitting on the second saw could be a challenge, if not a dealbreaker.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vtg-DISSTON-D8-Hand-Saw-Lot-24-22-18-All-Good-Users-Philada-Phila/122586356767?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649


----------



## PPK

Thanks guys. That make sense about the rake. I think I did increase the rake angle (unintentionally) when sharpening. I kind of want to buy another cheapie and do the same thing to it, but file it to a cross cut… 
Hmm, but I remind myself - is it worth the past few nights of going out to the shop to close the windows at 10:30 and then "getting stuck" in the shop as my wife calls it, until midnight, filing teeth or sanding a handle…


----------



## PPK

I've got some really nice cherry that'd make a good handle: *w*alnut *w*ith the grain, *c*herry* c*ross the grain… Dadgum it, Pete, quit thinking and get back to work!!


----------



## summerfi

Nice job on that handle, Pete. It looks great.

Vintage75, those look like three nice D-8 panel saws. They are the old style too. I wouldn't worry about the pitting on the middle saw. It's in a location where it won't be a problem. The handles are going to take a little work, but once done you will have three very usable saws.


----------



## Vintage75

Thanks for the input, Bob. I hate to get in over my head on these, but if i do it will be a good learning experience for me. BTW, if these saws come out even half as nice as yours, I would be thrilled. Wow… you do some amazing work!


----------



## TheFridge

I can definitely vouch for that.


----------



## bandit571

Barn Sale find today….spent $2.50 on it..









Have cleaned the plate, and hammered it straight..









There is an "8" inside the "D" fully readable etch…handle?









Plate was stamped as a "10" 









Tooth line is breasted…sounds good so far? 20" plate..









But…this was the medallion found on the handle…...Strange…
Wrong medallion? wonder what would have been here….


----------



## bandit571

Guess I wasn't quite done picking for the day…a second saw has arrived









26", straight back, 6 ppi…...rip saw?









The etch has a square box on the top…"M9"///
Rest of the etch:

CAST STEEL

The FARMER

WARRNTED
WS medallion..









No, I don't think those are the fancy kind of bolts…









Flat brass ones, though…...not quite willing to take this saw about, yet. 









Open top, three bolt handle. Is stamped at the heel as a "6"....

$3…...talked the fellow down from $5…..he was way over-priced on all of his treasures, paid for the saw, and walked away. 
Not too bad a day?


----------



## bandit571

Ok, The Disston one I can switch out the Pheonix medallion for a Disston one…

AS for the 6ppi "rip" saw…never heard of a brand called The Farmer. Any clues? I really do not want to mess with those brass bolts it has….not split nut, not sure what they are. What have I got with this saw?

Both plates needed to be straightened….I got 99% of the bends and kinks out. The 6 ppi saw is very sharp, the 10 ppi Disston not so sharp.

Any clues out there?


----------



## summerfi

Every now and then you see a real bargain on eBay. This isn't one.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/UNIQUE-ANTIQUE-19TH-CENTURY-DISSTON-HAND-RIP-SAW-PHILA-PENN-FAIR-COND-INTNL-SALE-/332309349527?hash=item4d5f2e4497:g:NG8AAOSwC8FZbj6C


----------



## theoldfart

But the tarnish looks original!


----------



## TheFridge




----------



## BrentParkin

Finished cleaning up a more modern Spear and Jackson 8" back saw. I bought it on eBay for about $3 Canadian and about $12 shipping. Nobody wanted it because it had been painted yellow and green all over the spine and handle. Apparently it came out of a school shop in the U.K. I figured it would be perfect for starting to teach my Grandson some wood working. For once the "unbreakable" handle makes sense lol. A huge improvement over the horrible paint job someone gave it.


----------



## UpstateNYdude

> - TheFridge


I actually laughed out loud


----------



## summerfi

Fridge, you're an honest man who knows the value of saws.

Brent, that turned out great. Nice job.


----------



## bandit571

" We are Farmers…." how does that jingle go, again….

Must be one of their saws…..


----------



## BlasterStumps

A couple years ago, I had seven saw plates that needed serious work on the teeth. These were all saws that I had picked up at thrift stores, Restores, or yard sales. All seven plates were as straight as could be expected, none of them really needed smithing. The teeth were either broken off, way high, way low so that the spacing was way out of wack or the teeth looked like someone used the saw to cut nails. I had planned to systematically redo the teeth on them until I found out that there was someone in town with a Foley retoother. I gave him a call and he agreed to take the seven saw plates and cut the new teeth providing he didn't have to remove the old. I took a while the next couple days and filed the old teeth off all seven plates. Then took them to him for the new teeth. About 3 days later, he called to tell me they were ready. I picked them up and when I got back to the shop, reinstalled the handles on all of them. But as I was putting them up, I noticed they all were bowed. Looking a little closer, I figured the retoother had caused the bowing. All I could think at the time was wow, that is going to be a job to straighten all seven saws. 
Then because I procrastinate I guess, I left them up in the till for about a year. I kept thinking I would get to them at some point to smith out the bow and then sharpen each of them. After a year, I finally took one out of the till and…

This is where I will stop and ask who all on the forum here has had new teeth cut in a saw plate by a retoother? The way my experience with these seven saw plates turns out surprised me but if you are old hat with saws, it might not surprise you. Anyway I would be interested in knowing what your experiences were with use of a retoother. I'll finish telling the rest of my story a little later after I hear from a few folks if I am lucky enough to get some responses. 
Mike


----------



## Mosquito

If you were about to say you took them out after a year and they were back to straight, I've had a similar experience with just raw spring steel. I had bought some "flat pieces" of 1095 spring steel to make a couple of saws, but when I got them they had a bow to them. One thing lead to another and some time went by where I hadn't (still haven't, actually) had a chance to use it, and when I looked at them later they were back to straight.

But yes, a retoother hasbeen known to bow the saw blade. It's punching every tooth from one side of the plate.


----------



## TheFridge

I have some saws like that as well. I use them for roughing and it's not that much of a bow. Figured it was from cutting teeth but wasn't sure.

My high bid up to 6.01 or 6.02. I better keep track. We are talking about major coinage here.


----------



## bandit571

No "Search-fu" on a saw called The Farmer?


----------



## BlasterStumps

okay, well Mos you are right of course. All seven of the saw plates lost the bow caused by cutting new teeth after some time, not sure exactly how long. I didn't know better at the time of getting these saws back from having the teeth cut that the bow would eventually leave. What I am wondering is how big of screw up would I have made if I had been more ambitious at the time and started hammering on them. I know now you don't have to be too concerned about the retoother leaving a bow in the plate. Or at least that is my thinking. But, what to do if you want to start using a saw right away after cutting in new teeth? Also wondering if the condition of the cutter on the Foley machine makes a diff in all this. Maybe a newer tool or cutter wouldn't bow the plate so much?


----------



## Tim457

That is interesting to consider what would have happened if you had hammered them flat when they were bowed and whether they would stay straight after hammering. I'd guess they would because of the tensioning if done right. I found hammering out bows to be easier than I expected, but I didn't keep careful notes on how I did it and lost the links to the advice. They were in this thread somewhere I'm sure and Bob gave some advice too.


----------



## Mosquito

I would think the newer/sharper the punch and die set the less it would bow the saw. I wouldn't think there would be any significant consequences to hammering them straight right after you got them back. I would think it's just undoing what the retoother did to it faster than time


----------



## summerfi

Straightening a gentle curve doesn't necessarily take hammering. You can manipulate a plate by hand by reverse bending it. That will normally straighten a sweeping curve. It takes some trial and error. Kinks are a different matter though.


----------



## Mosquito

that's true, I've had a few that I've been able to undo by just hand bending


----------



## bandit571

I suppose I could TRY to remove those bolts on that FARMER saw, remove the handle, and see if there is anything under it. A "sunken" Warranted Superior medallion? didn't know they ever were made that way.

Maybe I can bring out the top part of the etch….we'll just have to see. Not sure what year those bolts are from, either…


----------



## bandit571

Ok, first I got the Disston D8 Panel saw cleaned up…









Got rid of the Pheonix medallion, new one IS a Disston..WS..









Etch is readable, this is a D with the 8 inside. 









20" long, 10 ppi, crosscut. Might make a decent Panel saw…
Now, about this "Mystery saw" nobody wants to look at..









When the handle was removed. Plate is stamped as a 7…Not sure who clips the heel of a plate like this..









These are the bolts…a lot skinnier than the more "modern" bolts..









Medallion is a bit fancy..









A "bird" ( eagle?) holding a shield, arrows in the left claws, olive branches in the right claw. Head is turned to it's right. Wings are wide spread. Medallion is a sunken type. 









Never seen a "Brindle" coloured handle…..brass is shined up, slots are clocked..









Etch: managed to bring it out a little better..









Looks like two limbless trees, holding up a few banners. Not sure IF that is a rope across the bottom? 









26" long, straight back….Rip saw?


----------



## bandit571

Bolts seem to date this as before 1880s? Interesting…...


----------



## FoundSheep

Those saws cleaned up nicely bandit. How does the Farmers handle feel?


----------



## bandit571

Like it was made by Atkins….feels nice in the hand.


----------



## Don2Laughs

It's a wonderful slope your sliding down, Pete! From the looks of that handle… you're well on your way. Get yourself a Stanley 42X to set those small teeth. They're costly unless you find a 'deal' on eBay or swap meet. I bought one for $45 from one of the forum members then, a few days later a local friend gave me one!! Good idea to get another (or 2) to practice on. As you're finding out…even the practice & learning curve is enjoyable…..just seeing all those little soldiers making a straight line!

Good luck,
Don


----------



## Don2Laughs

Anyone able to point me toward info on this little treasure? This is a jewel I pulled out of a pile of rust…thought it was a kid's saw…then thought I saw an A on the medallion. Been looking for a panel saw this size for many years. Cleaned it, sharpened it (cursory) and tried my hand at repairing the handle….will work on that some more, too. 16" tooth line w/ 11 PPI RIP
https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/sets/72157684021924583


----------



## Tim457

I don't have any info for you, but that's a cool little saw. Nice job cleaning it up.


----------



## theoldfart

I found this this weekend. I think maybe a Moses Eadon.




























Verry faint stamp on the spine. It reads radon german steel








Any thought from the saw collective?


----------



## kwigly

Good find TOF
That saw looks old enough to have been made by Moses
(and there aren't any other candidates I see in BSSM with names ending as shown in your pics)
so I agree with your Moses Eadon ID (looks like an early one too)


----------



## theoldfart

Typo/spell check error on my post. It should read eadon not radon!

Eadon German steel


----------



## TheFridge

I was thinking if you had a radioactive saw it probably wouldn't be good for your health.


----------



## chrisstef

Ive got a couple Moses Eadon's at the house but neither have a stamp that low on the spine. Ill get you some pics of mine tonight OF. We can compare handle shape as well.


----------



## theoldfart

Sounds good Stef.


----------



## bandit571

The Farmer has been traced back to 1875….custom etched version of a Disston saw called the "IMP" ....

Some unknown Hardware Supplier wanted it etched, Disston made the saw.

Thanks….


----------



## Tim457

Anyone able to identify the wood in this Atkins handle? I probably won't be able to match it but I guess I'm curious.


----------



## theoldfart

I think its apple.


----------



## DLK

Looks like Apple to me.


----------



## ErikF

Apple

If anyone wants to see a saw screw made in one minute. Saw Screw


----------



## Tim457

Thanks guys, that was my guess, but I haven't seen much that is that red. Actually I don't have that much first hand experience with any that I'm sure were apple.


----------



## Tim457

-2 points for having to de-burr by hand. Hah, just kidding, that's awesome. Your turret lathe? Sounds like a nice rig.


----------



## DLK

> Apple
> 
> If anyone wants to see a saw screw made in one minute. Saw Screw
> 
> - ErikF


Nice. Will you be selling them?


----------



## chrisstef

Here ya go fart:


----------



## chrisstef

Fart: http://www.backsaw.net/forum/index.php?threads/moses-eadon-cast-steel.844/

A mention to german steel and a date of 1840.


----------



## theoldfart

Thanks Stef. JoeS over at backsaw.net can't find the stamp from my saw in Simons book. He does seem to think it may be around 1840.


----------



## ErikF

> Apple
> 
> If anyone wants to see a saw screw made in one minute. Saw Screw
> 
> - ErikF
> 
> Nice. Will you be selling them?
> 
> - Combo Prof


Yes sir. Making a bunch strictly for kits.


----------



## DLK

Not selling them separately then?


----------



## ErikF

> Not selling them separately then?
> 
> - Combo Prof


I will sell separately


----------



## theoldfart

Better picture of the saw handle I posted earlier. Any idea what the wood is? I think it might be rosewood.


----------



## UpstateNYdude

> Better picture of the saw handle I posted earlier. Any idea what the wood is? I think it might be rosewood.
> 
> - theoldfart


The way that grain runs looks like Mahogany to me, at least from those pictures anyway.


----------



## theoldfart

Nick thanks. I hadn't considered mahogany as a wood for handles


----------



## ErikF

Hey gents,

Just finished up some saw kits if anyone is in the market.

.02" plate
9" length 
15ppi sharp and set
1/2" and 5/8" screws 
Backs are friction fit (like a folded back)
1 3/4" depth of cut
Backs are 3/4"X1/4"

All major defects have been removed from the brass and the plate are defect free. I'm buying the stock at .025" thick and taking it to .02" with a surface grinder.

$75 and it's all yours. Send me a message if interested.


----------



## bandit571

> Guess I wasn t quite done picking for the day…a second saw has arrived
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 26", straight back, 6 ppi…...rip saw?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The etch has a square box on the top…"M9"///
> Rest of the etch:
> 
> CAST STEEL
> 
> The FARMER
> 
> WARRNTED
> WS medallion..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, I don t think those are the fancy kind of bolts…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flat brass ones, though…...not quite willing to take this saw about, yet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Open top, three bolt handle. Is stamped at the heel as a "6"....
> 
> $3…...talked the fellow down from $5…..he was way over-priced on all of his treasures, paid for the saw, and walked away.
> Not too bad a day?
> 
> - bandit571


Hmmm, I thought I'd seen that Farmer handle before…









This one was a slightly newer version, than that 1875 The Farmer saw…..aka Imp, by Disston. 
Had to go and ask Pete Taran to ID the older saw. At least he answered….


----------



## BrentParkin

Well here is another treasure on the big auction sight that defies logic. Must be really valuable eh! LOL

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Back-Saw-Henry-Disston-7-H-x-14-L-Blade-19-Full-Length-/112420590782?hash=item1a2cca14be%3Ag%3AyGwAAOSwK6RZKEcn


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Oh, for the love of Pete. $80 ask, too. Unbelievable.


----------



## TheFridge

I always wanted to cut 7" tenons.


----------



## JoeRPhilly

Recently acquired this old WM McNiece brass back. Interesting shape to the tote, I haven't been able to find one like it. From what I've read, it seems this was likely made around 1870.


----------



## theoldfart

Joe, have you tried posting on Backsaw.net? It is a good resource.


----------



## chrisstef

That McNiece is McAwesome! My favorite handle style.

And because we're on Mc's and this makes me laugh way harder than it should, ill share it with you guys ….


http://imgur.com/0CA6hDS


----------



## JoeRPhilly

Ha! That's a great clip there, thanks for the laugh

OF - I haven't but will head over there tonight, that's a new one for me, thanks!


----------



## summerfi

Brent - If that piece of a miter saw sells for $80, I wonder what the whole saw would be worth.

Joe - That McNiece is a saw most collectors would die for. You have a winner there. How long is the blade?


----------



## summerfi

Here is a unique saw that I feel fortunate to have stumbled upon. At first glance it appears to be a British saw, but that notion is confounded by the name stamp that reads "Proctor & Co., Boston, Cast Steel, Warranted". Through some internet sleuthing, I've determined that Proctor & Co. was a hardware store in Boston in the early 1800's, but that doesn't tell anything about who made the saw. I posted the saw on backsaw.net, and David, another poster there, responded with pictures of a saw that is identical in every way except that the name on his saw is Welch & Griffiths. Both men, Welch and Griffiths, were involved in saw making in England, and emigrated to America in 1830. They set up business in Boston and initially made round saws for sawmills, pit saws, and crosscut logging saws. A few years later they began making hand saws and backsaws. They were one of the very earliest saw making companies in America, predating Disston by a few years. They continued in business until around 1870. Their handsaws were stamped with three eagles surrounding the name stamp, similar to how many British saws were stamped with crowns. My saw has the eagles, which is further confirmation it was made by Welch & Griffiths for Proctor & Co. Proctor & Co. dissolved after the economic crisis of 1837-38 and reformed under the name of Proctor & Butler. That means my saw may have been made in 1938 or before, although it is possible they were still using old stock parts with the Proctor & Co. name after that date. It is likely that this is one of the earliest handsaws made by Welch & Griffiths. It is also one of the oldest saws I own, and in my mind at least, a treasure. There are a few Welch & Griffiths saws still out there, but it is doubtful if there are many Proctor & Co. saws made by Wech & Griffiths.



















Note that the eagles surrounding the name stamp are barely visible in this photo.


----------



## Tim457

Impressive sleuthing Bob, and nice find.


----------



## donwilwol

This is posted in my saw group on facebook. Anybody ever seen anything like it?


----------



## summerfi

That's a new one on me Don. It looks like a combination saw and bevel gauge. Does it have a name on it?


----------



## donwilwol

no name, no medallion.


----------



## summerfi

This doesn't look like the same one, but it appears to be a similar concept.

https://books.google.com/books?id=-9Q6AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA2677&lpg=PA2677&dq=patent+saw+bevel+gauge&source=bl&ots=R0JrQaaJRr&sig=IEMI8nJHCWOKa1kr4NWA754n1-A&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwibt73-xrnVAhWigFQKHUNHD_YQ6AEIMzAC#v=onepage&q=patent%20saw%20bevel%20gauge&f=false


----------



## chrisstef

That looks like 10 degrees and 45 degrees? I wonder it that would provide any clues to its usage? Cutting birdsmouths in rafters??

Nice saws fellas.

McScuse me?


----------



## DLK

> That looks like 10 degrees and 45 degrees? I wonder it that would provide any clues to its usage? Cutting birdsmouths in rafters??
> 
> Nice saws fellas.
> 
> McScuse me?
> 
> - chrisstef


Looks like 90 and 45 degrees to me.


----------



## bandit571

Olde School today..









Needed some Black Walnut cut down to size…









Disston D-8….8 ppi…


----------



## paulm12

I thought I would post this here, its also on the TTT site. To me the etch is just cool, and credit goes to Bob S for restoring the etch and sharpening the blade.

Anyone here graduate from the Chicago schools that may have used a saw like this?


----------



## TheFridge

Yeah. Bob is a gangsta.


----------



## JoeRPhilly

Hey Bob - plate on that McNiece saw is 15". Nice job on that cleanup of Paul's saw!


----------



## summerfi

Thanks Paul, Fridge, and Joe.


----------



## TheFridge

Bob that saw is chub worthy. Fantastic.


----------



## bandit571

Seen today..









Little chop saw..( didn't have the room for it..or the PTO….)
And…









and ..









And bought today..









Have a bit of work to do…


----------



## donwilwol

This collection is for sale. Well above my pay grade, but some drool worthy saws to look at

https://www.facebook.com/handsawman/


----------



## TheFridge

Bob, how goes the things around the homestead? Have you had time to get back to making your sets of heirloom saws?


----------



## summerfi

Fridge - No. I've spent most of the summer putting new siding on my house. I'm about 80% done, but had to stop because it got too hot. We had the driest July on record and the 2nd hottest July on record. We are now into heavy fire season, with my town basically surrounded by numerous fire. So I'm working fire duty now, averaging 12 to 14 hours a day, but it's an office job. Saw work is on hold until Fall.


----------



## TheFridge

I hear you. Hang in there bud.


----------



## bandit571

Rehabbed the rip saw..









Replace a bolt with the correct brass one..









Tried to see which Disston handle this was….couldn't find a matching bolt pattern. WS medallion has an Eagle.









Rip saw for a toolbox.


----------



## BrentParkin

Hey Smitty,

Do you have this size? 
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/CINCINNATI-SAW-COMPANY-No-4-Steel-Back-Saw-10-In-15-ppi-Blade-/172796836978?hash=item283b7e7c72:g:TFQAAOSwHn1Zeopc


----------



## JethroBodean

I've stumbled upon another unknown. Maybe it's special maybe it's not. It has the steel cone saw nuts, but no metal plate under them. I've never seen one of these in the wild before. Also the plate itself has a step down at the toe, like my saws with a nib, but no nib on this one. The handle 'feels' old, but someone along the way has used red stain, covering not just the handle, but also the cone saw nuts and a bit on the plate. I would love to hear any information you'd care to pass along. I have not yet started cleaning up the plate, but I have serious doubts about finding an etch.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

> Hey Smitty,
> 
> Do you have this size?
> 
> www.ebay.ca/itm/CINCINNATI-SAW-COMPANY-No-4-Steel-Back-Saw-10-In-15-ppi-Blade
> 
> - BrentParkin


Yep. 10 in through 16 in are in the assortment (nest?). An 8 in popped up on Jim Bode once, so I know it's out there, but he wanted a c-note and that wasn't happening.


----------



## Thunderdome

Hi guys, after some advice about a new hand/panel saw. Looking to get a crosscut saw 24-26inchs around 8-10PPI. I could get a new Garlick saw such as this http://www.thewoodworks.com.au/shop/hand-tools/saws-hand/saw-hand-professional-range-detail for around $100 or a vintage Diston D8 or other similar brand cleaned and sharpened for around $70-$150. The garlic saw is Sheffield made, re-sharpenable and made from tapered alloy spring steel.

But I know most of the vintage saws are made from much better steel. So which would be the better option?


----------



## bandit571

I'd go for a decent Disston D-8









8 ppi. This one is from 1953…..same age as I am…


----------



## FoundSheep

When I first was getting into woodworking, I didn't know about vintage saws. I got a different brand, Dorchester, also from Sheffield.
http://www.flinn-garlick-saws.co.uk/acatalog/DORCHESTER-SAWS.html

I think it was a better handle than the Garlick, but it also cost more.

I'd recommend, if they are similarly priced, getting a clean and sharpened vintage saw. A D-8 would be a fantastic user.


----------



## Thunderdome

This ebay seller in Australia where I am has heaps of vintage options cleaned and sharpened. Not cheap but they are ready to go to work. He states that the golden years of saw making was from 1860-1940 and that these were the best quality saws made. Anyone know how true this is?

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/PREMIUM-Quality-SHARP-Antique-DISSTON-D8-9pt-Xcut-SAW-Vintage-Old-Hand-Tool-27-/201694918124
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/PREMIUM-Quality-SHARP-Antique-PAX-10-5PPI-PANEL-SAW-Vintage-Old-Hand-Tool-290-/201979344885
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/PREMIUM-Quality-SHARP-Vintage-DISSTON-Xcut-No-7-11PPI-SAW-Antique-Old-Tool-205-/201635551607
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/PREMIUM-Quality-SHARP-Antique-SLACK-SELLARS-10pt-SAW-Vintage-Old-Hand-Tool-277-/201850446406


----------



## bandit571

Of the two Disstons…I pick the D-8…..the D-7 has a cracked handle.

Around here, these saws run from $5-$40each….The one I was using the other day ( D-8) was a "rescue" saw…had a farm scene painted on the plate! $0.25 was the price…..

My, but the seller does think his saws are gold plated….sheesh.


----------



## FoundSheep

1860 to 1940 is a great place to start. The industrial revolution was able to produce more saws at a higher consistency of a higher standard, but before the advent of cheap electric saws that reduced the demand for hand saws.

Others have done a lot more research into this field, but that is the quick version of it.


----------



## UpstateNYdude

> This ebay seller in Australia where I am has heaps of vintage options cleaned and sharpened. Not cheap but they are ready to go to work. He states that the golden years of saw making was from 1860-1940 and that these were the best quality saws made. Anyone know how true this is?
> 
> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/PREMIUM-Quality-SHARP-Antique-DISSTON-D8-9pt-Xcut-SAW-Vintage-Old-Hand-Tool-27-/201694918124
> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/PREMIUM-Quality-SHARP-Antique-PAX-10-5PPI-PANEL-SAW-Vintage-Old-Hand-Tool-290-/201979344885
> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/PREMIUM-Quality-SHARP-Vintage-DISSTON-Xcut-No-7-11PPI-SAW-Antique-Old-Tool-205-/201635551607
> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/PREMIUM-Quality-SHARP-Antique-SLACK-SELLARS-10pt-SAW-Vintage-Old-Hand-Tool-277-/201850446406
> 
> - Thunderdome


Thunder I'd ignore most of what Bandit said, he seems to think everyone lives in a place where tools can be had for a nickel just the other day at the garage sale around the corner, so if you pay more than $1 your being ripped off.

A vintage restored Disston with a straight plate and properly sharpened teeth and set correctly is worth those asking prices, look at what some of the better saw companies charge for sharpening services, setting teeth, handle repair (broken horns like the D-7 that's been properly repaired in your eBay link) and even recutting teeth. As I'm sure you'll hear that someone has a guy named Bill around the corner that will sharpen it for .10 cents an inch, but I assure you that is not the norm and rarely do those people know what they're doing.

Just factor in the time and resources it would take you to get a saw back to that condition and weigh whether you'd rather spend money and get back to woodworking or put in the time to restore and keep your money. I don't know your tool environment in your area so it may be worth it to you if you don't see these saws in good condition often. I can tell you whatever decision YOU choose is the one that works best for you.

I look forward to seeing whatever saw decision you come to and post some pics when you arrive at your decision.


----------



## Just_Iain

My definition of misery. A local store offered me their 3 Bad Axe display saws at 30% off. The Credit Card bill is rather large due to some car trouble so I shouldn't go for them. Argh!!!


----------



## Tim457

Ouch Ian, that's a tough one.


----------



## Thunderdome

> This ebay seller in Australia where I am has heaps of vintage options cleaned and sharpened. Not cheap but they are ready to go to work. He states that the golden years of saw making was from 1860-1940 and that these were the best quality saws made. Anyone know how true this is?
> 
> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/PREMIUM-Quality-SHARP-Antique-DISSTON-D8-9pt-Xcut-SAW-Vintage-Old-Hand-Tool-27-/201694918124
> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/PREMIUM-Quality-SHARP-Antique-PAX-10-5PPI-PANEL-SAW-Vintage-Old-Hand-Tool-290-/201979344885
> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/PREMIUM-Quality-SHARP-Vintage-DISSTON-Xcut-No-7-11PPI-SAW-Antique-Old-Tool-205-/201635551607
> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/PREMIUM-Quality-SHARP-Antique-SLACK-SELLARS-10pt-SAW-Vintage-Old-Hand-Tool-277-/201850446406
> 
> - Thunderdome
> 
> Thunder I d ignore most of what Bandit said, he seems to think everyone lives in a place where tools can be had for a nickel just the other day at the garage sale around the corner, so if you pay more than $1 your being ripped off.
> 
> A vintage restored Disston with a straight plate and properly sharpened teeth and set correctly is worth those asking prices, look at what some of the better saw companies charge for sharpening services, setting teeth, handle repair (broken horns like the D-7 that s been properly repaired in your eBay link) and even recutting teeth. As I m sure you ll hear that someone has a guy named Bill around the corner that will sharpen it for .10 cents an inch, but I assure you that is not the norm and rarely do those people know what they re doing.
> 
> Just factor in the time and resources it would take you to get a saw back to that condition and weigh whether you d rather spend money and get back to woodworking or put in the time to restore and keep your money. I don t know your tool environment in your area so it may be worth it to you if you don t see these saws in good condition often. I can tell you whatever decision YOU choose is the one that works best for you.
> 
> I look forward to seeing whatever saw decision you come to and post some pics when you arrive at your decision.
> 
> - UpstateNYdude


No worries, thanks for the info guys. I'm not really set up for sharpening yet so I guess I'll probably pay the premium or get someone to sharpen for me. I found a saw doctor close by who charges around $20 to joint set and sharpen so that sounds pretty reasonable. So I think I'll decide on one of these vintage ones instead of a new Garlick.

Anyone able to explain the difference between alloy steel, spring steel and sweedish steel? From what I've read these seem to be what most saws are made from.


----------



## TheFridge

If it's the same person I'm thinking of (it may not be but if it is) they have been brought up before and they have a great reputation and really know what they are doing and selling.


----------



## summerfi

> Anyone able to explain the difference between alloy steel, spring steel and sweedish steel?
> 
> - Thunderdome


All steel is an alloy. Spring steel is a special alloy that returns to shape after being bent, has a certain hardness, and is particularly good for saw making. Alloy 1095 spring steel is the preferred modern steel for making saws. Swedish steel is a fancy name for spring steel. It's basically a marketing technique.

Here's a good article on saw steel, with a focus on British saws. http://hus-saws2.wkfinetools.com/z_msReading/barley-SteelAndSaws/steelAndSaws1.asp


----------



## bandit571

Did a "Saw Rescue" today….Painted saw..$1.50..

Three bolt handle. Medallion is on the right right of the handle, instead of the left. By design, it appears, too

26" skew back, 8ppi

I'd post a picture..but…too ugly for this forum….unless there is some interest.

Medallion does have a Pheonix/ Warranted and a bird….and a few other items. Brass hardware.


----------



## bandit571

Pictures, anyway..









Overall view









Handle details.
.








Right side…









Close up of the Bird….

Clues?


----------



## theoldfart

Bandit, can't help with the bird but that is a fine looking saw.


----------



## bandit571

Took the handle off..









Shined up the Brass fittings. Three sets of holes in the plate? PHOENIX Patented Trade (bird) Mark Warranted on the medallion.. got 99% of the ugly paint off the plate. Handle seems to say it was made for the bolts to be on the right side..









Holes on the left match the slotted ends..









Took the cleaned up saw out into the sunshine…









Still needs sharpened..









Might be a decent enough saw?


----------



## putty

Looks like a rare left handed saw by the medallion placement….


----------



## rtbrmb

Some of you may remember seeing this Drabble and Sanderson "dovetail saw" on e-bay last winter.










I thought it was a great deal (under $30) even though plate replacement was obvious. The saw Dr. in Missoula agreed to replace the plate…....then when he took it apart he discovered the "dovetail saw" was actually a carcass saw that had been cut down at some point in it's life. I should have been alerted that the factory name wasn't centered on the spine or that it didn't have an open type dovetail handle. So Bob had to replace the plate, cut down the spine and replace the split nuts and bolts.

He returned it and all his work was awesome-as usual. The saw was sharped to 13 tpi rip & it cuts beautifully. After I got it back I polished the back and stripped the handle down & epoxied a cut, that someone made along the line, that protruded into the hand grip area. Overall very happy that we were able to save the saw in put it back in working order for years to come.


----------



## donwilwol

That looks great! Nice save.


----------



## bandit571

Saw purchased today









4" x 26", Has Disston & Sons on the spine, Langdon / Millers Falls ( with a star) etch…









Spent $15for it. Not sure what is going on with the one bolt…. Seems like it should fit my Stanley 2246 quite well…until I find the "proper" box for it…

Didn't see a price tag on this saw, though…









Might be a bit large for my shop…









Comes with 5 blades…..


----------



## Just_Iain

I broke down and picked up 2 Bad Axe saws at the nearest LV. Two weeks ago I was in the store and was told that the 3 saws that LV offered were on clearance at 30% off for the display models. In today and they were down to two, the 10" Dovetail and the 14" Sash. So that's what I got. $200 Canadian for the Dovetail and $240 for the Sash. With taxes, the total was $500 and I had a good luck of a $100 Gift Card so $400 total ($322US after conversion).

Time to get off my ass and start building something.


----------



## Just_Iain

Happy Labour Day weekend everyone.

Now for a question. Does anyone have a link or suggestion on search words for something to put on an older handsaw so that it doesn't break out in rust if a few drops fall on it? The last job at my daughter's century home, we were caught out in a very minor and brief rainfall, but, it was enough to leave a slew of rust on my older "Superior" crosscut.

Many Thanks,
Iain


----------



## bandit571

Spread a few lines of 3in1 oil on the plate, then wipe the entire plate down. Leave barely a film. Then coat the other side.

Do NOT use what one antique tool seller puts on all of his items…..ClearCoat…...nasty stuff.


----------



## bandit571

Picked a "jig" today, for a pair of quarters…..









Called an "Oregon", and "Made in Italy" 









Has a fleam setter? May have to add a file and see how it works….

Needs a bit of clean up. All parts seem to be there…


----------



## bandit571

Would appear that the Oregon is for Chainsaws. Which I don't have. May try to "adapt" it to a handsaw vise set up…


----------



## UpstateNYdude

> Happy Labour Day weekend everyone.
> 
> Now for a question. Does anyone have a link or suggestion on search words for something to put on an older handsaw so that it doesn t break out in rust if a few drops fall on it? The last job at my daughter s century home, we were caught out in a very minor and brief rainfall, but, it was enough to leave a slew of rust on my older "Superior" crosscut.
> 
> Many Thanks,
> Iain
> 
> - Just_Iain


I've been using Ballistol for quite awhile and can say that it works quite well, it actually neutralizes hand sweat from skin, protects from water, lubricates and has no effect on finishes.


----------



## Just_Iain

> Happy Labour Day weekend everyone.
> 
> Now for a question. Does anyone have a link or suggestion on search words for something to put on an older handsaw so that it doesn t break out in rust if a few drops fall on it? The last job at my daughter s century home, we were caught out in a very minor and brief rainfall, but, it was enough to leave a slew of rust on my older "Superior" crosscut.
> 
> Many Thanks,
> Iain
> 
> - Just_Iain
> 
> I ve been using Ballistol for quite awhile and can say that it works quite well, it actually neutralizes hand sweat from skin, protects from water, lubricates and has no effect on finishes.
> 
> - UpstateNYdude


Thanks Nick, I'll make note of it and see if I can find it up here in Ontario.


----------



## Just_Iain

Blast from the past. At least my younger past. I was in the habit of picking up tools that I thought were interesting. Not always usable in the end but interesting at the time.



















I know what it is but does anyone else recognise it? And yes I know it needs to be sharpened!

Iain


----------



## chrisstef

Stair saw??


----------



## BenDupre

> Blast from the past. At least my younger past. I was in the habit of picking up tools that I thought were interesting. Not always usable in the end but interesting at the time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know what it is but does anyone else recognise it? And yes I know it needs to be sharpened!
> 
> Iain
> 
> - Just_Iain


That is Whiley Coyote's cut the floor out from under yourself saw! Patented by ACME I believe…


----------



## donwilwol

Yep, flooring saw


----------



## Just_Iain

Ben and Don's got it. Start with the round edge and finish with the straight sections. In it's own way, a little like a plunging circular saw.


----------



## JethroBodean

A while back I posted a couple of pictures of a saw and with the help of the group we determined it was a Bishops Bulldog Toolbox saw. I finally got around to cleaning it up a bit. The plate was covered in some sort of very rough (and tough) black coating that I was able to remove using acetone soaked rags and a lot of scrubbing. Otherwise I took the minimalist approach.




























An etch did appear but it is mostly unreadable. I could make out a Diamond shape and some word fragments. With those clues I did some internet hunting; I am quite comfortable saying that I have a Bishop's Bulldog that was produced expressly for the Shapleigh Hardware Co. of St. Louis.


----------



## Tim457

Very nicely done. The tough dark coating is a stable form of rust. Rust chemistry is really complicated and apparently there are lots of forms of iron oxide, not all of which are the flaking red rust.


----------



## Just_Iain

> Very nicely done. The tough dark coating is a stable form of rust. Rust chemistry is really complicated and apparently there are lots of forms of iron oxide, not all of which are the flaking red rust.
> 
> - Tim


I wouldn't be surprised this is what appears on some of the plane blades I've been cleaning and sharpening.


----------



## DLK

I think that what a rust converter does is to convert chemically the non-stable iron oxide (rust) and to stable iron tannate , that can be painted. Is the tough dark coating is a stable form of rust Tim mentions just iron tannate?


----------



## Tim457

That's a good question, Don. I'm no chemist but I see that stable rust on enough old tools that I'm pretty sure they weren't all treated with a rust converter. Anything is possible though. If everybody else doesn't see stable non flaking hard brown coatings on some old tools once in a while then maybe you're onto something. I assumed that stable rust happened with properly oiled tools where the amount of oxygen in contact with the metal was reduced so it didn't create red flaking rust. But that's purely an uneducated guess.


----------



## DLK

I wasn't suggesting that old tools were treated with rust converter. Black rust does occur naturally. I suspect that these two forms of natural rust were observed by some bright chemist who figured out a way to convert the red to the black. I am also not a chemist. I was just pondering the relationship between the naturally occurring and the chemical converted. Perhaps there is none. I'll find a chemist and ask.


----------



## donwilwol

I think if you search"rust bluing" you'll find your answers.


----------



## DLK

*Types of Rust*

Red Rust: Hydrated oxide Fe2 O3•H2O (high oxygen/water exposure)
Yellow Rust: Iron oxide-hydroxide FeO(OH)H2O (high moisture)
Brown Rust: Oxide Fe2O3 (high oxygen/low moisture)
Black Rust: Iron (II)oxide - Fe3O4 (limited oxygen and is more stable)
(Numbers are subscripts.)

*Rust Converter*, a water-based primer, contains two active ingredients: Tannic acid and an organic polymer. The first ingredient, tannic acid, reacts with iron oxide (rust) and chemically converts it to iron tannate, a dark-colored stable material.

*Rust Bluing and Fume Bluing*) provide the best rust and corrosion resistance as the process continually converts any metal that is capable of rusting into magnetite (Fe3O4).
Actually I think its Fe3O4•H2O

(note above link omits the closing parenthesis for some stupid LJ site reason. 
just click on "Did you mean: Bluing (steel)?" when you get to where it takes you.)

So I guess black rust is magnetite.

But what is iron tannate (or ferric tannate)? Apparently it is C76 H49 O46

*I am so very confused.
*


----------



## Brit

Yours for £40.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Tattoo-removal-hand-saw-man-cave-tattoo-supplies-tattoo-removal-/222634603527?hash=item33d60e7407:g:G~MAAOSwKUhZrbfU


----------



## BenDupre

Flea market find today














































Looks like it might have a little kink in the plate. Any advice on straightening?

Thanks!


----------



## waho6o9

http://www.wkfinetools.com/z_search/searchR.htm?cx=partner-pub-4701461783987714%3A6045599587&cof=FORID%3A10&ie=UTF-8&q=fix+kinked+saw+plate&sa=Search&siteurl=www.wkfinetools.com%2Fz_search%2FsearchR.htm&ref=www.wkfinetools.com%2F&ss=13853j69919367j21

http://trestore.wkfinetools.com/saw/straightSaw/straightSaw-02.asp

HTH BenDupre


----------



## duckmilk

Nick, thanks for the Ballistol info. I've been using Break Free on my guns but will order some of this for them and my hand planes.

Interesting info on the black rust. We have been building pipe fence and have been using some converter to get rid of the inevitable rust. However, we have to use gloves to protect our hands from contact with it. The pipe won't rust anymore, even if we don't paint it for months.

Haha! No tattoos on me Andy


----------



## summerfi

The rust converters I've used (automotive products) were phosphoric acid based. The black substance they leave in place of rust is iron phosphate.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Someone please tell me this is all the colour combinations they made the D95 in so I can quit buying them. Now I have three 8PPI crosscuts. 
Mike


----------



## TheFridge

I just threw up in my mouth.

Sorry


----------



## BlasterStumps

See if I show you my Tenite again : )


----------



## DLK

> Interesting info on the black rust. We have been building pipe fence and have been using some converter to get rid of the inevitable rust. However, we have to use gloves to protect our hands from contact with it. The pipe won t rust anymore, even if we don t paint it for months.
> - duckmilk


I have used the automotive rust converters, plus rustoleum primer and black paint on pipe. Seemed to work. Well the pain has now rubbed off leaving the primer… but still no rust.



> The rust converters I've used (automotive products) were phosphoric acid based. The black substance they leave in place of rust is iron phosphate.
> 
> - summerfi


One of the many reasons I remain confused.


----------



## duckmilk

That's it Bob, it was phosphoric acid we used. Don't want that on your hands.

Don, we had to use a converter because the pipe had already started to rust. A primer wouldn't have worked at that point without some way to remove the rust.


----------



## DLK

Are you saying you cannot prime converted rust?


----------



## duckmilk

Yes, you can prime and paint once the rust has been converted, or skip the primer and just paint. It is much faster to wipe this stuff on and convert it vs hand sanding hundreds of feet of rusty pipe.


----------



## DLK

O.K. we are on the same page.


----------



## slavic

anybody have a saw of this maker?


----------



## Brit

Slavic - Have a look here. http://huk1.wkfinetools.com/01-BritishSaws/Jackson,WM&Co/Jackson&Co-index.asp


----------



## slavic

Thank you, he loved his wife, The inscription on his tombstone reads:

In Memory of HARRIET THE BELOVED WIFE OF WILLIAM JACKSON MERCHANT WHO DIED MAY 28th, 1854 AGED 30 YEARS. ALSO OF WILLIAM JACKSON HUSBAND OF THE ABOVE, BORN APRIL 15th, 1814 DIED DECEMBER 26th, 1894

she died in the middle of his life, a long life of 80+ years


----------



## theoldfart

Looking for some informed commentary ( Bob, Andy , picked this saw up this am. Beardshaw, 26" plate, split nuts, nib, beech handle. 













































The plate is pretty thick, the split nuts have not been disturbed.


----------



## TheFridge

Ohhhh.


----------



## theoldfart

Tasty, huh! SWAG on dating is about 1850 maybe? Does have one broken tooth.


----------



## TheFridge

I have a beardshaw tenon from the same period that I is working on as well. Pretty saws. In the manliest way of course.


----------



## theoldfart

Of course they are, fella!


----------



## terryR

the London Spring steel and that lamb's tongue say first line quality.


----------



## summerfi

Kevin, the name stamp most closely resembles the Beardshaw stamps dated 1840 in Simon's book. The blank medallion would also seem to indicate an older saw. The handle is in remarkable shape for a saw of that age.


----------



## theoldfart

Thanks Bob, Terry.


----------



## TheFridge

Better shape than mine. I'm in the process of transplanting some choice bits of beech into certain spots.


----------



## kwigly

I visited a local studio on Sunday and saw a few saws that Rachel Charlebois has been working on;

The re-toothing on these "tree saws" doesn't look like it'll cut too well.









This one looks pretty "sharp" though









and this mitre saw is not too bad









More pics at arcnsawcanada http://www.imgins.com/arcnsawcanada
[I suggested trading a bunch of my excess saws for one of hers. might be possible]


----------



## TheFridge

...


----------



## CL810

I'm in awe of your restraint Fridge.


----------



## Brit

I just had a minute's silence for those old saws.

You kill me Fridge. )


----------



## theoldfart

Gahhhh!


----------



## UpstateNYdude

Geez, she's like the antichrist for saws


----------



## Mosquito

I admire her talent, just would prefer to see it confined to those circular saw blades rather than some of those otherwise usable hand saws


----------



## Bertha

I'll give her some damn circular saw blades. Why not just sheet metal? I'm all for art. I'm even in for artful tools. I'll go so far as to admire over-the-top ornamental tools. As long as they still work. It's a shame to detract from what is obviously a very skilled artisan.


----------



## Bertha

Though, I especially like the moon/tree relief.


----------



## Tim457

Al you said it better than I could have. I don't mind the art, just don't destroy a tool and it's history in the process.


----------



## theoldfart

That "arteest" created quite a stir over on backsaw.net

Look at this thread Slack Sellars & Grayson. Art !


----------



## DLK

Curses *Kevin* now I have another forum to read.


----------



## theoldfart




----------



## TheFridge

> I m in awe of your restraint Fridge.
> 
> - CL810


Thank you. A really appreciate your recognition of my supreme effort.

Brit. I do my best 

I will say. It would be awesome to see an etch lasered out and have it mounted in a shadow box with a light and a fog machine behind it. Like a gift from the tool god


----------



## Bertha

^the fog machine is critical.


----------



## BlasterStumps

You will need extra restraint when you see this old tool as it has been repurposed: 
https://www.etsy.com/listing/520057250/miter-box-lamp?ga_order=most_relevant&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_search_query=mitre%20box&ref=sc_gallery_7&plkey=429c885a6b88ac8dd5f4fbeb9ab38a133b9385d1:520057250


----------



## DLK

Crap … I think it has the parts I need.


----------



## Bertha

It's 45 o'clock somewhere. Yeah, this one is pretty painful.


----------



## theoldfart

your kidding, right?


----------



## BenDupre

Well that's just stupid. Its not even functional as a lamp.


----------



## summerfi

I could use some built-in lighting on my miter box. My eyes ain't what they used to be.


----------



## Trakem2

Seriously, somebody stop these people!


----------



## DLK

> Seriously, somebody stop these people!
> 
> - Trakem2


Thats easy. We must buy up all the tools!


----------



## CFrye

> Seriously, somebody stop these people!
> 
> - Trakem2
> 
> Thats easy. We must buy up all the tools!
> 
> - Combo Prof


I'm trying to, I've run outta room!


----------



## theoldfart

I've got my share of boxes, how 'bout you?


----------



## BlasterStumps

Nope, I only have 10. I'd have more but I'm a cheap ol' phart.


> I ve got my share of boxes, how bout you?
> 
> - theoldfart


----------



## theoldfart

Guess maybe 'pharts should corner the market.


----------



## donwilwol

That's a miter cool light. Once I clicked the lick, I saw the light.


----------



## theoldfart

Don,  well spoken!


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Had to cut some condor dovetails today. Good thing I had a "real deal" carcass saw.


----------



## Brit

That looks pretty cool Red. Are you also going to add a stretcher between the two sets of legs?


----------



## FoundSheep

Awesome table Red, how are the legs jointed to the top?
And that's an awesome carcass saw, very cool to see one from Bob in use.


----------



## bandit571

Guess I will just have to "make do" 









14", 11 ppi, Disston No. 4

Was using it's LONGER relative…









28" long…..


----------



## TheFridge

Yeah but when you make doo you shouldn't do it on your saws.


----------



## bandit571

Just about the normal response for the Fridge…..









Was just cutting Birdseye Maple 1×4s…...


----------



## TheFridge

Yeah I prefer saws without the doo.


----------



## Bertha

Fridge, who makes that walnut handled one?


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Looks like a Summerfield to me.


----------



## Bertha

It's handsome, whatever it is.


----------



## TheFridge

Oh yes. Summerfield Special. I got the gettin while the gettin was good.


----------



## BillWhite

Fridge, I'm gonna tell Robert that you are talkin' "doo".
BTW, I make enough "doo" a lot. 
Bill


----------



## summerfi

Nice to see my saws getting some use, Red and Fridge. Keep those babies working.


----------



## Bertha

Summerfield still producing?


----------



## Tim457

You mean the guy above you in comment #14595? Last I heard he was limiting production, but you could ask him.


----------



## Bertha

No, can't be. that guy's got a hat and he's missing 3 letters.


----------



## theoldfart

That is the hat of the ancestors, we speak of it with reverence.


----------



## Brit

Hey Bob,

Have you ever seen saw teeth measured in a 1/4 ppi? I'm just about to sharpen a W. Tyzack, Sons & Turner 28" No.1 rip saw that I've just finished restoring and the ppi count starting at the toe is 6ppi, 5 1/4ppi, 5ppi, 4 1/2ppi. Hopefully you can see where the different tooth counts start and finish in the image below.










Although there's nothing unusual about varying the tooth count on a saw, I've never come across teeth measure in 1/4 ppi. In other words, if you start measuring on the point of a tooth, the end of the inch comes half way down the back of a tooth and not the gullet between two teeth which would make it 1/2 ppi. Just wondered if you've ever seen that. No reason why you can't do it of course, just never heard of it before.


----------



## summerfi

Andy, never have seen 1/4 ppi increments, though I have seen a saw or two that had a very gradual progression in ppi. Jumping 3/4 ppi all at once is a significant change. Like you, I'm not sure it makes a big difference though.

I do have a hat or two. Unfortunately I don't have THE hat that belonged to my great great grandaddy. Wish I did though. Old hats are kinda like old dogs. Both are good to have around.


----------



## Bertha

^gospel right there, gentlemen.


----------



## TheFridge

Amen brother. The lord said let no man go hatless except at church and the dinner table.


----------



## Bertha

^and when swimming/showering. I'm pretty sure he made an exception for those.


----------



## bandit571




----------



## Brit

Thanks Bob. I think I'll keep it the same as it is currently. No point wasting good steel.

Fridge, the only reason you have to take your hat off at the dinner table is if you have to eat it. Personally, I'm partial to nice beanie in the winter months. They certainly keep the heads of the follically-challenged feeling toasty.


----------



## BigRedKnothead

Sorry fellers, was outta town for a bit.



> That looks pretty cool Red. Are you also going to add a stretcher between the two sets of legs?
> 
> - Brit


I don't think so. It's a desk, and I don't want a shin basher. That's why I made the under-frame so beefy (1 3/4" stock) It's pretty stout.



> Awesome table Red, how are the legs jointed to the top?
> And that s an awesome carcass saw, very cool to see one from Bob in use.
> 
> - FoundSheep


Big arse Spax driven from the frame into the leg. I only care about the joinery you see…lol.

Haven't decided how to attach the desktop yet.


----------



## TheFridge

> ^and when swimming/showering. I m pretty sure he made an exception for those.
> 
> - Bertha


Not in my part of the world


----------



## kwigly

Got another saw at a local estate auction on Sunday. [Cost; less than 2 cases of beer (but taxes make beer expensive in Canada)]

















6 ft blade.
Can't find any etch on the blade, but a pat date June 3 1902 on one of the parts leads to F J Pahls' Pat 701350 and the manufacturer "The Folding Sawing Machine Co" 
More google shows the FSM Co also used Marvin O Smith's patents of 1882, 1885, & 1890 for the design basis of their folding saw product.
Vintage Machinery , org has some interesting data on FSM Co with copy of advertising and company letters (claiming one man could cut 10 cord of wood in 10 hours without straining his back [hurts my back just to think about cutting 10 cord ! ])
http://vintagemachinery.org/mfgindex/detail.aspx?id=1002&tab=6
I set it up and cut about 1" into a log with some effort. It needs some fine tuning ! (me too)


----------



## summerfi

That looks like a lot of work kwigley. There's a pedal powered version as well. Then some enterprising soul figured out how to hook an engine up to it, and the drag saw was born. Nice find.


----------



## bandit571




----------



## kwigly

There was a motorized version at the same auction, with a smaller motor than the one Bandit has shown.

I collect handsaws, no motorized collectable saws (yet), so I managed to restrain myself from bidding on the motorized drag saw, but I couldn't stop myself on the manual one. 
(My name is Kwigly, and I have a problem…)


----------



## BenDupre

That saw was shown on an episode of woodwright shop.


----------



## GlenintheNorth

I haven't posted in this thread yet because I didn't have much.

But now I got a doozie.

Soooo…I just won this mitre saw offa the bay. It matches one of my mitre boxen in the resto queue, and was at a good price. That means no one else bid on it  But here's the kicker: it is a Disston that has the '96-'17 medallion, and…it still has the original Millers Falls Tools sticker on the handle!! From right after MF bought Langdon! (Which was in 1906, so this saw was made between 1906 and 1917.)

So, ah…does anyone know how I can protect this crazy sticker find in a way that still allows me to cut stuff with the saw?


----------



## DLK

> I haven t posted in this thread yet because I didn t have much.
> 
> But now I got a doozie.
> 
> Soooo…I just won this mitre saw offa the bay. It matches one of my mitre boxen in the resto queue, and was at a good price. That means no one else bid on it  But here s the kicker: it is a Disston that has the 96- 17 medallion, and…it still has the original Millers Falls Tools sticker on the handle!! From right after MF bought Langdon! (Which was in 1906, so this saw was made between 1906 and 1917.)
> 
> So, ah…does anyone know how I can protect this crazy sticker find in a way that still allows me to cut stuff with the saw?
> 
> - GlenintheNorth


Make a duplicate handle.


----------



## bandit571

Have a 5" x 30" saw…









Have a Langdon No. 75 to work with it….


----------



## TheFridge

first rehab. Admittedly, it didn't need much work. I just wanted to try some repairs. Came out well. Wish I had some dye. Beardshaw and sons





































I might've refinished the handle… garnet shellac is a wonderful thing…


----------



## BrentParkin

So a couple of weeks ago I was looking at some saws on eBay when an interesting tenon saw showed up. It looked like countless old English saws we have all seen. But the maker in Sheffield shared my family name. My Dad's family originated in that part of England in the early 1800's. So it might not be far fetched to be related. My family name isn't that common.

Anyway, the maker is Parkin & Marshall. I only found a single reference to this company on backsaw.net. Has anyone else ever seen a Parkin & Marshall? I'm really looking forward to restoring it. There is no rust or pitting on the blade. Some minor horn restoration and it will be ready to work again. Can't help but wonder how old it might be.

Anyway, if anyone knows more about the company or has one of their saws, I would love to see or hear more.

Brent Parkin
Regina, SK
Canada


----------



## Brit

Nice restoration Fridge. The shellac looks good.

Brent - I think Parkin & Marshall were known more for their tableware and electro-plating than their tools.


----------



## summerfi

Brent, according to Simon Barley's book, William Parkin and William Marshall joined in business in 1846. After Parkin died in 1873, his two sons took over and the firm became one of the top 20 cutlery firms by the 1890s. It declined afterwards and was taken over by Michael Hunter, and disappeared sometime after 1918.

Fridge, nice job on the Beardshaw.


----------



## BrentParkin

Thanks Bob and Andy!

With them being what looks like a minor player, I guess I'll never really figure even a rough date out for the saw. I'll just call it old and maybe fairly old. Lol

Thanks guys,

Brent



> Brent, according to Simon Barley s book, William Parkin and William Marshall joined in business in 1846. After Parkin died in 1873, his two sons took over and the firm became one of the top 20 cutlery firms by the 1890s. It declined afterwards and was taken over by Michael Hunter, and disappeared sometime after 1918.
> 
> Fridge, nice job on the Beardshaw.
> 
> - summerfi


----------



## Tim457

I don't care what everybody says about you, Fridge, you do nice work. Impressive horn repair there.


----------



## bandit571

Had to use the old D-8 Crosscut today…









Maple 1×4 was too long for this old saw..









Didn't need the other No. 4 saw today, maybe tomorrow?









Have some joinery to do…


----------



## GlenintheNorth

Bandit I love that mitre saw.

Seems you ALSO have the decal still…

And yes Don I'm gonna make a new handle. This one that is coming is just too nice to try anything with. Pic when I get it.

Fridge, that refin is gorgeous.


----------



## Just_Iain

I have to agree, Nice job Fridge!


----------



## Tim457

> So, ah…does anyone know how I can protect this crazy sticker find in a way that still allows me to cut stuff with the saw?
> - GlenintheNorth


There was an in depth discussion on this a while back, and I don't recall if we came to a solid conclusion. There are serious archival quality museum curator supplies to do this but I think shellac was the easily available one that should work.


----------



## terryR

Mallard Saw by Skelton,



















one piece of bronze milled to serve as the saw's back, and strengthen the handle. The maker claims it reduces vibration. I think it's bad ass. About a grand. No, not mine.


----------



## BrentParkin

When I was at Bad Axe taking a saw sharpening seminar, they had a Skelton saw on hand. It was gorgeous, comfortable and cut nicely. It was only one of Shane Skelton's regular dovetail saws, but in truth, it didn't cut as well as the Bad Axe saws. Actually it didn't cut as well as the dovetail saw I built and then sharpened under the supervision of the Bad Axe guys.

Sure is a pretty thing though and I wish Shane Skelton all the best. It is gorgeous and hopefully anyone that buys one puts it to good use.

OMG, just checked the price 950 pounds!! Now where is my lottery ticket…. 

Brent Parkin
Regina, SK
Canada eh!



> Mallard Saw by Skelton,
> 
> - terryR


----------



## summerfi

Brent, why do you think the Skelton didn't cut as well? Do you think it was the sharpening, or something about the design?

His damascus steel saws are certainly beautiful, and even more expensive than the Mallard. https://www.skeltonsaws.co.uk/damascus


----------



## BrentParkin

Hi Bob,

I'm sure it is just how the saw was sharpened. There was more blow out at the back of the cuts in some white oak that we were using for testing. It was a pretty thing, felt good and tracked well. I'm sure if Mark resharpened it, it would have cut just as well. I'm also a convert to really believing in the folded back rather than the milled ones. Being able to retension the blade if you ask your saw to do something it shouldn't (and we all do that from time to time) is a good thing.

I was just letting dollars talk. You can have a gorgeous English saw for big money or a fabulous user from Bad Axe for way less. Or start making them yourself and learn to sharpen. I have been working at it steady since you last sharpened my mitre box saw and punched and sharpened that blade for me to build a saw. I really enjoy building them now.

Anyway, I'm not bad mouthing the Skelton, I'm just a basic user and could never justify spending that much on a hand saw. Now if I was a collector….

Brent



> Brent, why do you think the Skelton didn t cut as well? Do you think it was the sharpening, or something about the design?
> 
> His damascus steel saws are certainly beautiful, and even more expensive than the Mallard. https://www.skeltonsaws.co.uk/damascus
> 
> - summerfi


----------



## terryR

I can only imagine a maker who creates the finest objects to sell to wealthy folks could easily afford such a saw.

But, it's just money. We all probably have 3 times that invested in TV and stereo.


----------



## theoldfart

Todays adventure in saws and the like









G Bishop, Disston, Groves and Son, Jackson/Disston and a couple of mysteries.


----------



## donwilwol

That's a pretty good haul!


----------



## putty

Nice bunch of saws Kevin, what are the backsaws?


----------



## theoldfart

Putty
Top to bottom, George H Bishop 8 (14"), An early Disston (1860-65) 12", and finally a Jackson 8"


----------



## putty

Nice, they should clean up real good


----------



## theoldfart

Thanks Putty. The Disston has me a little stumped on dating. The medallion runs 1860-65 but the stamp on the spine predates the medallion by a number of years as far as I can tell.


----------



## jmartel

What's that on the bottom of the photo, Kevin?


----------



## DLK

> What s that on the bottom of the photo, Kevin?
> 
> - jmartel


Looks like a nail puller to me. But what's in the box? Are they gimlets?


----------



## theoldfart

Don's correct on both counts. The puller has an interesting apendage on the front I hadn't seen before. Not sure about the quality on the gimlets but since i didn't have any; so what!


----------



## theoldfart

Some more details on the hand saws from yesterday
Two of them are Disston 7's, a full size at 28"with split nuts and a panel at 18" 









Next up is a R Groves and Sons full size and I think fairly old. 26" and split nuts




























Below the Groves is a WS wheat carved handle and a brass guard and 23" 









Finally a saw that i don't recognize. Nice eagle etch, no medallion and split nuts


----------



## kwigly

Kevin, The WS with the brass guard looks like a Harvey Peace P26. You might find a patent date on the guard.
H W Peace were taken over by Disston in the early 1900s, and Disston continued to sell the P26 as one of their "special saws etched to order" (in Disston's 1919 catalog). The WS medallion probably designates your saw as a saw "etched to order" for some hardware company


----------



## summerfi

Kevin, the saw with the metal guard is likely made by Disston out of Harvey Peace parts after they bought Peace out. Nice bunch of saws.


----------



## theoldfart

Thanks for the info..


----------



## BillWhite

As some of you may know, I've been a sucker for W. Butcher tools for many years. 20+ years ago I found (and bought) a Butcher 12" tenon saw. Split nuts. No medallion. Had never seen one before or since. Didn't even know that Butcher made saws.
Any thoughts?
Bill


----------



## theoldfart

Went back to the well and came back with an EC Atkins 24" skew back









Very faint etch.


----------



## chrisstef

I dont know much about Butcher saws Bill but i own one as well. I think its a 12". It came with a shop made handle but bears the butcher name and maltese cross on a steel spine.

Nice haul farticus.


----------



## summerfi

Here's some great info on the Butchers. http://huk1.wkfinetools.com/02-Toolmakers/Butcher/butcher-index.asp


----------



## FoundSheep

I'm sure a lot of you have seen this, but I like the rear curve on this saw the seller made.









"H. Disston D-23 Halfback 22 1/2 in. 8 tpi crosscut hand saw tool collectable" on Ebay


----------



## GlenintheNorth

> Have a 5" x 30" saw…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have a Langdon No. 75 to work with it….
> 
> - bandit571


Mine's a 74..I have (most of) two pre-20s MF 74s, a 40's 73A (needs saw handle bad…), and a CMan rebranded 74C. It seems the 74 size has chosen me, though I would totally dig that extra 2" of saw in the 75.

That's a seriously nice box.


----------



## ErikF

Hey Gents,

I rigged this saw filer out of an old scroll saw and figured I would show it. Makes quick work of sharpening a saw and the fence acts as a depth stop to prevent filing too deep. It works best on a saw with evenly spaced gullets. Table tilts to add fleam.


----------



## DLK

Eric I like this. How did you instal the saw file? How did you slow down the scroll saw? Some scroll saws do not run true vertical but have a small arc. Would that be a problem?

Also have you moved from Empire, Mi?


----------



## chrisstef

Thats crafty af Erik.


----------



## FoundSheep

Very cool Erik, that's an inventive idea.
Do you move the saw plate by hand?


----------



## ErikF

Saw plate is moved by hand and I hooked in a foot pedal to control the motor. An improvement would be a DC motor to provide speed control.

This scroll saw is driven with a cam mechanism that provides a true file path 90 degrees to the table.


----------



## DLK

Another question. How do you keep the file from trying to cut on the back stroke?


----------



## ErikF

> Eric I like this. How did you instal the saw file? How did you slow down the scroll saw? Some scroll saws do not run true vertical but have a small arc. Would that be a problem?
> 
> Also have you moved from Empire, Mi?
> 
> - Combo Prof


I'm still in empire.

The file is held in place by two set screws. Not ideal but it works. I'm going to turn down a few file specific holders that make the clamping more economical. This machine doesn't move in an arc motion.


----------



## DLK

Someday we will have to meet up. I am in Houghton, but I am moving to Holland. So I will be fairly close to you.

I think a modification of a jig saw might be easier.

I understand that the machine you show is true vertical, but I wonder if a small arc would actually be a problem.


----------



## ErikF

> Another question. How do you keep the file from trying to cut on the back stroke?
> 
> - Combo Prof


Only option for that is to slow the speed down enough to back off the plate on the return stroke. I'm considering mounting the plate guide/fence on some linear rails that allow me to slide the whole assembly back a few thousandth for return stroke clearance while maintaining the same file position in the gullet.


----------



## ErikF

> Someday we will have to meet up. I am in Houghton, but I am moving to Holland. So I will be fairly close to you.
> 
> I think a modification of a jig saw might be easier.
> 
> - Combo Prof


Feel free to stop by.

My hesitation with a jigsaw would be the ridgitity of the setup. I like the cast iron body of this saw and the support at both ends of the file. I also use rasps with this setup and need it to handle a decent side load.


----------



## DLK

My questions revolve around the fact that I have a scroll saw I almost never use. I have to check how vertical it moves the "saw blade" it takes the old pin style saw blades, but I did but the olson conversion kit so that you can use the clamp style. I wonder if it could clamp in a file. But I have never installed it.

One random thought that might help. If you put a pin in the fence in the right position you could put the first valley into it and use it to keep the valleys evenly cut, buy moving it to the next valley and so on. Some sort of adjuster needs to be made to vary the teeth per inch. Maybe you could pivot on the pin, but probably not.

By the way Bob Page who you know, lives only a couple of blocks from me.


----------



## bandit571

Yard sale today…only one had anything worth picking up…Spent $9 on 5 items…one of which was just $1..









26" long, skew back, 8ppi crosscut saw. And very sharp, I might add…









Ring any bells? Richardson Bros, of Newark, NJ…...

The other four items were just handplanes…..


----------



## theoldfart

Bandit, that Richardson is a nice saw. I have a small turning saw from them.


----------



## ErikF

Can't believe I once doubted CNC.


----------



## bandit571

Google Search-fu is having trouble finding out what model number that Richardson Bros. saw was. May be a later model?

Seems to have been sharpened, recently. Plenty of set, and very sharp teeth.

I might get around to polishing the rest of the bolts…

Any clues as to a model number?


----------



## bandit571

After a bit more digging around with search-fu…..Richardson Bros. No. 8….....

Noticedthe bottom bolt, their "Extra Rivet" had heads a slightly smaller diameter….

Plate has been cleaned, brass has been shined up…saw is now in the saw til…..will be awaiting it's turn doing crosscuts, giving the D-8 a little break…


----------



## bandit571

Ok, that $1 Richardson Brothers No. 8 saw has been cleaned up, and ready for "Polite Company" 









Full length look….









Note the bottom bolt? It was made as a smaller headed bolt. More to fit in that spot..









Again, note the size of that bolt? Tried to "clock" the slots…medallion one wasn't quite up to that….might a different time zone.

8ppi, 26" long. A bit pitted, nothing that will bother the cut. Cuts Maple like butter. Maltese Cross is a bit worn, you can almost see the " B,E,S,T,....R" on it. Skew back ( hollow back?) crosscut saw. Top horn has a few "bites" out of the tip, no other defects or cracks seen.


----------



## FoundSheep

> Can't believe I once doubted CNC.
> 
> - ErikF


I'm having a hard time deciding what I'm more shocked by, the number you've produced, or the variety of woods used.
Does this mean more will be up at your store soon?


----------



## Bertha

Hey guys, you are the go-to guys, I'm not a saw collector, and I can't read 15K posts. Can someone point me to a quick summary on sharpening a 15tpi rip dovetail saw (plate). I've got all the goodies to do it, just not the experience. Thanks!


----------



## chrisstef

Needle file or a 4" xxslim Al. Id file a DT saw with 5 degrees of rake. No fleam.

1) Joint the teeth until you have shiners on all teeth.
2) Shape the teeth by filing 90 degrees acros the plate.
3) Set the teeth lightly. You dont need much set on a DT saw
4) Lightly joint the teeth again just enough to get even shiners across all the teeth.
5) Sharpen the teeth to your satisfaction.


----------



## JethroBodean

How about "Saw Filing--A Beginner's Primer"


----------



## Brit

Some time ago I bought a W. Tyzack, Sons & Turner No.1 28" rip saw which I've just finished restoring. The teeth step down from 6ppi at the toe to 5 1/2ppi then 5ppi and finally 4 1/2ppi at the heel. I had to make three passes when shaping them as they were in pretty bad shape with varying spacings and rake angles. The point line was also concave. Here are the seller's pics when I bought it:














































Here it is after I restored and sharpened it:




























W. Tyzack, Sons & Turner made a No.1, No.2 and No.3.










I bought and restored a No.3 some time ago and I have a couple of No.2s in the restore pile. Here is the No.1 with the No.3 (their top of the line saw) for comparison:


----------



## Brit

Al - You could watch my video up to the end of the first scenario. Here's the link:


----------



## TheFridge

I'd go balls deep in the #3 Andy. The curl just lights my fire.


----------



## summerfi

Beautiful saws as always, Andy. I'm always amazed at how clean looking you get your handles. I must not know the secret formula. I have a Tyzack to restore this winter, and I hope it comes out close to that nice.


----------



## theoldfart

Andy, split nuts in the same time period as etching?

Beautiful saws. I'm afraid to touch my early Moses Eadon for fear of screwing up the saw so I'll live vicariously through your restores.


----------



## Brit

*Fridge* - I was very lucky to find a No.3 in such good condition and without any name stamps in the handle. It was quite an easy restore in comparison to some of the others I've done.

*Bob* - Thanks. It was a lot of work to clean up that handle. If I didn't already have the No.3, I probably wouldn't have spent so much time on this one. I'm glad I did though as it looks, feels and cuts real nice.

*Kev* - Yes, the split nuts are all original. I managed to get them out and back in again without breaking any, although I had to clean up / deepen the slots in the nuts with a needle file before I was able to refit them.


----------



## donwilwol

Good stuff Andy


----------



## DanKrager

Brit, you're whetting my appetite for Tyzack hand saws! Those are simply gorgeous! Outstanding work as usual.

DanK


----------



## Tim457

Wow Andy, that's fantastic.


----------



## TheFridge

Seeing those side by side you can tell the difference in the details in the handle. The handle being a bit more ornate is the identifier? I wonder because my beardshaw has the same details and I've never really thought about what line of saw it is but you have me wondering now.


----------



## terryR

Very impressive, Andy.
Glad you are back at it again!


----------



## Bertha

Thanks, guys. I'll check them out. This made me think of y'all. $20.

https://www.etsy.com/listing/558899717/vintage-gem-folding-mitre-box-j-c?ga_order=price_asc&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_search_query=woodworking%20tools%20vintage&ref=sc_gallery_10&plkey=d90e06b955d0ccfb095f1e663ee7eade854c5f9e:558899717


----------



## bandit571

Paid $10 for mine…came with a saw…..









Well..it was missing that brass "anti-fold" rod..









Have since replaced the folding sections with new pine.


----------



## Brit

Thanks everyone.


----------



## terryR

Anyone looking for saw sharpening work? I have a few that need attention.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

> Thanks, guys. I ll check them out. This made me think of y all. $20.
> 
> https://www.etsy.com/listing/558899717/vintage-gem-folding-mitre-box-j-c?ga_order=price_asc&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_search_query=woodworking%20tools%20vintage&ref=sc_gallery_10&plkey=d90e06b955d0ccfb095f1e663ee7eade854c5f9e:558899717
> 
> - Bertha


Resist, Al. They're cute, but pretty craptacular. Threw mine away after a misguided (albeit brief) love affair.


----------



## summerfi

Terry, if you can't find anyone closer, you can always send them to me.


----------



## GlenintheNorth

My favorite back saws need a closable till. From top, 28×5 disston mf mitre saw, 16" Simonds #96, 14" Disston #4 sunken medallion, 12" open handled Jackson carcase saw, 12" disston-made WS, 8" Jackson for a DT. Whole user set, yay. As for boxes, all this time and I still don't know what I want.


----------



## theoldfart

He's back!

A Rocky Mountain Saw Works restore on a Jackson mitre saw. The saw is a mate to my favorite Northampton Langdon mitre box.










Thank you Bob.


----------



## summerfi

My pleasure Kevin. I think it cleaned up well. I hope it works well for you. After sharpening your 100 inches of miter saws I'm happy to do something else for a while.


----------



## TheFridge

Just go a head and work him to death Kevin… gawd


----------



## theoldfart

But, but, but I have more!

Ok, we'll stick with crosscuts for now.


----------



## Brit

Glen - That looks like a great set. Enjoy!

Nice job Bob! Congrats Kev.


----------



## Just_Iain

Patience is good. I spent the summer hunting saws (at the cost of about $200) and ended up with 1 workable Superior rip with that needs a new handle and two panel saws that need in one case a sharpening and the other has a cracked blade and teeth need to be recut it's been so badly sharpened.

Lo and behold this weekend, on eBay I got two D8's in what seems like good to very good condition for $68 Canadian. I hadn't intended to buy more saws but took a peek and lo no one had bid. I put in the minimum and as the last day approached, I upped it just in case. Anyway, success as no other bidders and $38 for the saws and $30 shipping. Pictures to follow.


----------



## GlenintheNorth

Visit us in MN for a month. We pay $2-$5 for D8s at estate and garage sales.


----------



## Just_Iain

Rare seemingly all summer at least in Canada and then I stumble on these two. It was also a summer of a lot of missed chances and D8s that I bid on going thru the roof. Such is luck on eBay.


----------



## ErikF

Some taper grinding.

I picked up this old 24" surface grinder a little while back and now have it up and running with flood coolant. These are the first set of 24" plates I've ground. Started with a .042" blank. One picture shows the plate after two passes.

Final specs leave .04" at the tooth line and .025" at its thinnest point along the back. They are double tapered so there is more thickness at the heel and toe.

In order to get the taper, I ground a set of one piece shims (also tapered) that go under the plate. Second shim is twice the thickness of the first but keeps the same taper.

Last picture is a 27" saw with a brown ebony handle. I'm able to "etch" the plates using a carbide engraving bit.


----------



## terryR

Wow, that's sexy, Erik.

Here's one of your early saws eating Wenge yesterday while helping me stuff it in a plane. Yes, I've worn the finish off the handle. Love the weight of the copper back! and incredibly sharp teeth.


----------



## Brit

Nice work Eric. Does it say "The Beaver" on the plate?


----------



## bandit571

Clear something up for me…..another fellow claims that Disston used a 12 ppi on their mitre box saws..aka No.4

Why is it the Disstonian and the saws I have all say 11ppi? Then he shows off a catalog page to "back up" his story….only thing is Disston never made a 12 ppi half back No.4…...


----------



## summerfi

I've never seen a Disston miter saw that was anything other than 11 ppi Bandit.


----------



## bandit571

Pete Taran claims that is all he has seen is 12ppi…...some as high as 15….


----------



## theoldfart

Bandit, maybe we're talking tpi vs ppi? At least as far as 11 vs 12. I've heard of 14 but not on a stock vintage saw.


----------



## Brit

tip vs poi Kev? )


----------



## theoldfart

Actually I've heard poi is pretty good!

I did correct my spell corrector, this machine intelligence thing is getting out of hand.


----------



## DLK

A good tip is not to eat poi, imho.


----------



## theoldfart

It does not look appealing.


----------



## Brit

I'd give it a go.


----------



## bandit571

Maybe he has a different ruler for his counts…? I count 11 ppi….saw is a No. 4 made for a Millers Falls ACME Langdon 75, 5" x 30"....

Unless I got this 20" D-8 Panel saw's count wrong..









Hmmm both of the D-8…..









The "full-sized " one behind it is a 8ppi, 26" long crosscut…


----------



## GlenintheNorth

> Wow, that's sexy, Erik.
> 
> Here's one of your early saws eating Wenge yesterday while helping me stuff it in a plane. Yes, I've worn the finish off the handle. Love the weight of the copper back! and incredibly sharp teeth.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - terryR


Woah, what…? Copper back, and is that a walnut handle I see? I, like, automatically want that.


----------



## BlasterStumps

ErikF, looks like you are one of those gifted few that can figure out and then do just about anything. I'm seriously impressed! Beautiful saws. 
Mike


----------



## ErikF

> Nice work Eric. Does it say "The Beaver" on the plate?
> 
> - Brit


You bet it does.

Glad to see the saw alive and well, Terry. I still dream about the batch of claro walnut I pulled from to make that handle. 


> ErikF, looks like you are one of those gifted few that can figure out and then do just about anything. I m seriously impressed! Beautiful saws.
> Mike
> 
> - BlasterStumps


Thanks, Mike. I'm lucky to have a mind for making.


----------



## Brit

I kept up the momentum following the restore of my Tyzack No.1 by tackling the following two London saws. I bought these together on ebay.co.uk because I wanted the C. Nurse & Co. 10ppi 20" panel saw. The other saw is a 4ppi 28" rip saw made by Joseph Fenn which has a replacement handle.





































The original Charles Nurse worked from 1841 to 1886 and was a [woodworking] plane and toolmaker, and tool dealer. According to W.L. Goodman, British Planemakers (3rd ed. 1993), the company began in Maidstone England, and moved to London around 1887 when they also became C. Nurse & Co. They had several addresses, including 182-184 Walworth Road (1887-1908), and 181-183 Walworth Road from 1909-1937. At the back of the shop (in Colworth Grove) they had their workshops and warehouses. The building is still there today, only now it's a sports shop.










Here is the panel saw after restoration. The plate came up pretty nice. I haven't sharpened it yet, but the teeth aren't too bad with only a minor case of cows and calves to correct. The handle was a lot of work though. Although you can't see it in the photos above, someone had deeply stamped a 5 digit number into both cheeks with 5/16" stamps. I sanded the handle back to bare wood, but the stamps were too deep to get out. I know from experience that they would just end up a blurry mess under the new finish, so I decided to dye the wood using a water-based dye. My thinking was that the water would raise the grain of the beech and swell the fibers in the stamped areas. This worked really well and you'd never know they were ever there. Once dry, I wiped on a couple of coats of varnish and finished with a coat of wax.














































Since this is starting to sound more like a blog than a forum post, I'll shut up now. The finish is still drying on the Fenn, but I'll post some photos once I've put it back together.


----------



## terryR

Very impressive and informative.


----------



## TheFridge

Nice. Are you gonna cut that 28" down to a useable 26"?


----------



## Brit

Thanks Terry.

Fridge - No, Bob said I needed to get some 28" saws and who am I to argue. They'll look good in the till don't you know. Not that I've built a till yet.


----------



## RWE

Although you can't see it in the photos above, someone had deeply stamped a 5 digit number into both cheeks with 5/16" stamps. I sanded the handle back to bare wood, but the stamps were too deep to get out. I know from experience that they would just end up a blurry mess under the new finish, so I decided to dye the wood using a water-based dye.

Brit: You have given me a bit of hope for a way to cure the initials carved into this Richardson Brothers rip saw. Thanks.


----------



## Brit

RWE - I wouldn't get your hopes up too much because those letters have been carved into the wood which means wood has been removed. That's different to letters or numbers produced by stamps where the fibers are compressed instead of being removed. I have an Ashton saw with carved initials in it in the restore pile and I'm resigned to the fact that they ain't coming out.


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

Beautiful job on the Nurse saw Andy. I'm Glad she found you !!


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## summerfi

Andy, the Nurse saw looks terrific. Beautiful job, and a very nice etch as well. What date would you put on the saw?

I almost always spray my saw handles with oven cleaner and then wash them off with clean water. That not only helps remove grime and oils, but the water helps bring out any dents, dings, or name stamps. If they have black oxidation from contact with steel, then they get an oxalic acid treatment. I fill in carved initials and other damage with epoxy mixed with an appropriate colored sanding dust, and usually they don't come out too bad.

Oh, and Andy, I have one 30" saw. I think you need to get one of those too.


----------



## BlasterStumps

> Brit: You have given me a bit of hope for a way to cure the initials carved into this Richardson Brothers rip saw. Thanks.
> - RWE


Looks like a brand from a ranch or farm to me.


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## bandit571

Or a Frat House tool box?


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## RWE

I was not a fraternity guy, but it looked like a frat symbol to me. Mr. Summerfi has been holding out on me. I will try the oven cleaner trick. The saw came from Ebay recently and it was in surprisingly decent shape, fairly sharp. I don't like the finish on the handle, so this motivates me to do a refurb on it.

As an aside. I always used crosscut saws. In my youth, I sawed more two by fours than you could imagine. Getting back into handtools now in my 60's and growing in knowledge about saws has been a blast. I am amazed at how well the rip saws work on the bandsawn lumber that I now have a supply of. I don't hesitate to pull out the D-8 thumbhole, the Richardson brothers, or an Atkins (all 5 to 6 TPI) and cut those two inch thick pieces of lumber. This may be old news to everyone, but I just never had a rip saw in my possession until lately.


----------



## Brit

> Andy, the Nurse saw looks terrific. Beautiful job, and a very nice etch as well. What date would you put on the saw?
> 
> I almost always spray my saw handles with oven cleaner and then wash them off with clean water. That not only helps remove grime and oils, but the water helps bring out any dents, dings, or name stamps. If they have black oxidation from contact with steel, then they get an oxalic acid treatment. I fill in carved initials and other damage with epoxy mixed with an appropriate colored sanding dust, and usually they don t come out too bad.
> 
> Oh, and Andy, I have one 30" saw. I think you need to get one of those too.
> 
> - summerfi


That's some good advice re: cleaning and filling Bob. I'll give that a go. There's no way I'm getting a 30" saw which is just as well as they are few and far between on ebay.co.uk.

Regarding the date of the Nurse panel saw, it is difficult to say. I have a 374 page pdf of a C. Nurse & Co. catalogue from 1902 and although they sold a lot of Disston saws and C. E. Jennings saws, the following illustration is all there is regarding their own Invicta brand saws. As you can see, the tow is more rounded than mine and the etch is laid out differently. Although there are similarities in the handle design, it isn't a London pattern and they don't offer the option of having a London pattern. I even looked in the replacement saw handle section and they don't have a London pattern handle there either. I'm certain the handle is original, but it is hard to date.










My guess is between 1887 and 1902.


----------



## Brit

RWE - I agree, I love my rip saws.


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## RWE

The Richardson Brothers is 28 inches. It is the longest saw in my collection. I imagine some Paul Bunyan looking fellow used it originally. I guess it all makes sense if you have long arms.


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## summerfi

Andy, I'd say you're about right on the date. Simon Barley shows two etches similar to yours. One dated 1930 is nearly identical, but by that date the company had tacked Ltd. onto it's name. The other, dated 1890, has the horse in the very center of the etch with London beneath it.


> There s no way I m getting a 30" saw which is just as well as they are few and far between on ebay.co.uk.


Hmmm…I seem to remember Andy once saying almost those exact words about 28" saws. How many do you have now Andy?

Roger, I have short arms, but a fellow needs at least one of every kind of saw. Just because.


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## Brit

I think I can still count my 28" saws on the fingers of one hand Bob. Don't want to appear greedy you know.

I really find the Nurse difficult to date Bob. If you look at the illustration from their 1902 catalogue, the etch reads C. Nurse London which suggests the illustration is pre-1887, before they became C. Nurse & Co. If the saws offered in the 1902 catalogue still actually looked like the saw in the illustration, I would have to revise my earlier date and say mine is from 1902-1937. I'd love to see inside their 1925 catalogue to see what the illustration looked like in that one.


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## Brit

I knew I'd seen that 'Best Cast Steel, Warranted' etch somewhere before. It is exactly the same as seen in the etch I posted of my W. Tyzack, Sons & Turner No.1. I've read that C. Nurse & Co. saws were made by other manufacturers (at least the plates were) and I wouldn't mind betting that Tyzack made the plate for this panel saw.

Nurse etch:









Tyzack etch:


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## DLK

For some reason that Tyzack etch reminds me of a ouija board.


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## TheFridge

I don't believe you…


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## Brit

Working on my hunch above, I went through my pdf of the W. Tyzack, Sons & Turner catalogue from 1920 where I found the No.7. The etch on the saw says 'Best Cast Steel, Warranted.' exactly like the two etches above, the handle is the same as the handle on my Nurse and the catalogue says it was "Made specially for the London Tool Trade". The 20" No.7 would almost certainly have had three saw bolts instead of the four found on the longer No.7s. Notice too the absence of the Tyzack medallion and that the angle of the etch matches. IMO, the Nurse is a No.7 made by W. Tyzack, Sons & Turner around 1920.



















Off to bed now.


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## ErikF

First 24" saw with a double taper ground plate.


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## Brit

That's hoss Erik. Love the wood selection.


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## terryR

Erik, I have to ask, how much are you getting for the full size saw with a taper ground plate? Sorry for not sending a PM, but I would assume there others here who would like to know.

I could sure use 24-26" of sharp steel, 9-11 ppi rip. And that brown ebony is calling my name.


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## dbray45

Andy - Your work is incredible.
EriK - you are going to have way to much fun with that surface grinder. Waiting to see what you do with hand planes.


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## Brit

Thanks David.


----------



## ErikF

> Erik, I have to ask, how much are you getting for the full size saw with a taper ground plate? Sorry for not sending a PM, but I would assume there others here who would like to know.
> 
> I could sure use 24-26" of sharp steel, 9-11 ppi rip. And that brown ebony is calling my name.
> 
> - terryR


Full size saws are in the $225 range.


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## Tim457

Erik, I forgot how you are doing your etch/stamp. Also your website isn't in your signature or on your home page. I think both of those are encouraged ways to link to your business. Unless you have too many orders of course.

I don't normally like two tone wood, but that handle is fantastic.


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## ErikF

> Erik, I forgot how you are doing your etch/stamp. Also your website isn t in your signature or on your home page. I think both of those are encouraged ways to link to your business. Unless you have too many orders of course.
> 
> I don t normally like two tone wood, but that handle is fantastic.
> 
> - Tim


Thanks, Tim.

I'll link the website at some point but I'm still in the building phase. I etched the plate with a carbide engraving bit on my CNC. When I decided to move away from the custom made saw to a line of saws, I didn't know how long the process would take. I'm really close to having everything in place to start selling saws again. My goal is to do the whole thing in-house, takes a lot of equipment and learning. One goal of mine is to offer affordable tools, only way to do this is to building from scratch and do it efficiently. Long winded answer to your post, but that's where I am.

For anyone that likes blacked out items. I built this saw yesterday. I chemically treated the plate with a brass patina solution I had for a different projects. It's a thin plate and cuts great. "Here it is cutting 15/16 birch.


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## Brit

Here's the second of the London saws, a 28" rip saw 4ppi except for 6" at the toe which is 6ppi. This saw has a replacement handle which the previous owner had stained. The original handle would have been an older design. If the handle had been original I probably would have restored it, but other than a few dings and scratches, the replacement wasn't too bad. I cleaned it a couple of times, smoothed out a tiny chip on the bottom horn that was catching my hand when I picked it up, gave it a coat of varnish and then a coat of wax.














































The saw was made by Joseph Fenn. To be honest, I'd never heard of him before seeing his name on this saw and I wouldn't even have known he was called Joseph if Bob hadn't told me when I posted a photo of the saw after winning the auction. This is what Bob sent me at the time:

Fenn, Joseph
London
105 Newgate Street 1855-1871
10 Railway Approach, London Bridge 1874-1876
Saw, file, tool, and planemaker.
These dates are the saw making listings. BPM3 documents an important and much longer history of tool making in London (1853-1909), with a changing emphasis after 1874 to engineering tools.

One interesting fact that I found out about Joseph Fenn from a thread on ukworkshop.co.uk was that he is credited with inventing a screw-adjustable lever cap for wooden planes.

The text in BPM says that the plane in question was wooden bodied with parallel sides, of smoothing plane size. "The iron is secured by a spring cap and is adjustable by a screw adjuster" One of the three known examples is marked "J Fenn registered 12th Nov 1844"

There's a tiny illustration of a "Fenn Patented block plane" in Tony Murland's book. It looks like this one which sold at David Stanley auction in 2016. (Hammer price was £850. )










One thing's for sure, working at 105 Newgate Street as he did, he would almost certainly have been an honest hard-working individual who kept out of trouble. I say this because he was situated just a few doors down from Newgate prison, the most notorious prison in London. For over 600 years, the prison was renowned for it's appalling conditions. It was said that the prison was so dirty and squalid that the floors crunched as you walked due to all of the lice and bedbugs. The women's area was equally as appalling, crowded with half naked women, drunk, sometimes deranged, in leg irons and often with their children in tow. It was also the site of London's public gallows until public executions were abandoned in 1868.










At midnight on the eve of an execution, a bellman would walk along the prison tunnels ringing 'twelve solemn towels with double strokes' on his handbell whist chanting:

"All you that in the condemned hold do lie,
Prepare you, for tomorrow you shall die;
Watch all and pray, the hour is drawing near
That you before the Almighty must appear;
Examine well yourselves, in time repent,
That you may not to eternal flames be sent
And when St. Sepulchre's bell tomorrow tolls,
The Lord above have mercy on your souls."

Who knows, maybe Fenn paused from sharpening this very saw to watch some poor wretch swing for stealing a loaf of bread to stave off starvation for one more day. Call me crazy, but this is the kind of stuff I think about when I'm restoring old tools.


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## TheFridge

Personally, I tried to think mr. beardshaw was day dreaming of unicorns and rainbows and drinking a fruit drink from a swirly straw when he built mine.

Yeah you're crazy. Interesting history definitely. But yeah


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## terryR

Crazy old chap.
Excellent work, however.
Love the little wooden plane.


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## summerfi

Another excellent saw restore, Andy. Will you keep that saw or sell it?

If you're crazy then I must be too. I think about those sorts of things as well. My great uncle was foreman of the jury that presided over the last public hanging in Fayette County, West Virginia. Story here. Incidentally, the Nancy Cash mentioned in that story is the family line through which I am related to Johnny Cash.


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## RWE

You guys are all crazy. It is about the Civil War ("If at first you don't secede, try, try again."). H. Disston 1865, end of war at top. Just post Reconstruction period Philada 1878 at bottom. You can see that the Rebs worked themselves to death rebuilding. Not much saw plate left.


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## Brit

Great story Bob. BTW, the video you link to at the end isn't there anymore.

You never cease to amaze me. First I find out that your great x 18 grandfather, Sir Walter Hungerford, was a Knight of the Garter and you are probably related to Richard I, now I find out you're related to Johnny Cash himself. Amazing!

I don't know whether I'll keep it or not yet. I'll sharpen it and give it a go. I suspect it will be quite fast cutting as the plate is pretty heavy.

Oh and Fridge, just because Bob mentioned Johnny Cash, it doesn't mean you have to tell us about your ring of fire. )

RWE - Nice saws. The bottom one is asking to be cut down and turned into a lovely little panel saw IMO.


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## RWE

Brit:

I am actually a bit new to working with saws. I have been very busy with them for the last 2 or 3 years. I bought a Disston D-8 about 25 years ago and it took me 23 years to learn to sharpen it. Now I have about 25 saws. They tend to multiply. By the way, I think your sharpening video is great. I went ahead and bought the Veritas guide after watching it.

I am not sure if I should cut a saw down and "ruin" historical value or not. I picked the 1878-80 saw up at a local flea market for $15.00. It may be my best pick ever from a flea market. So cutting it down might be a good move, certainly I don't have much invested in it. I am just going to have to take some time and decide if I value the historical aspect of the saw more than the practical aspect. What I do love about both of those saws is what I believe is European Beech in the handles. I assume that you are awash with great Beech lumber.

Bob:

All my relatives on my father's side are from Brunswick County, Virginia. My grandfather was a Constable. Not exactly sure what a Constable does. All I know is that it was a part-time role that he played. Hopefully, he never hanged anyone. I will check the map to see where Amherst county is located (mentioned in the story).


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## bandit571

A pair of D-8….









20" 10ppi Panel saw with a 26" 8ppi hiding behind it….

Gave a test drive of sorts..









The start…









And done. Wood is hard Maple….cut was to remove a 1/4" off.


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## summerfi

Andy, if you go back far enough everyone is related to everyone. I have my share of scoundrels in my pedigree too. Johnny Cash is of Scottish descent through the original gentleman who came to America from Scotland named McCaish. They (and I) are descended from Scottish King Malcolm IV. I don't know if I ever shared with you this story about my connections to Hungerford.


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## summerfi

Roger, my maternal grandfather was a town constable for awhile too. I can only remember seeing him once before he died, but I have some nice stories through my mom.


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## dubois

These got brought by the other day as a gift from my teacher who has stopped work and cleaned out the old shop.


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## summerfi

Those are some wonderful acquisitions Dubois. I've never seen a two-man crosscut saw set up like that before.


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## dubois

Yes, it is a striking example. The blade being in poor condition, I hang it up for show.


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## putty

there are some graceful lines on that bow saw too!


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## RWE

General question for everyone. I picked up this Warranted Superior saw (22 inch toothline) about a year back and it is definitely my favorite panel saw and contends for favorite saw (some of the mitre box saws give it stiff competition (no pun intended)). *I am curious to know how many of you own or have seen 12 PPI handsaws.* It cuts like a dream and leaves such a fine edge. This is the only 12 PPI I have seen. I see them listed in old catalogs.

I would like to hear about them and see them if you have one.


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## Brit

*Bob* - You kill me.

*Bandit* - Those are some lovely Disstons you've got there and you appear to have that mitre saw purring nicely.

*dubois* - Those saws are amazing. Like Bob, I've never seen a two man saw in a frame like that. I'd love to see some more shots of that lovely bowsaw when you get a minute too. Very unusual.

*RWE* - The little Disston D8 that I sharpened in scenario 3 in my video is 12ppi. I had to cut 1/2" off the toe as it was badly bent. I sharpened it with 12 degrees of rake and 20 degrees of fleam. I've used the hell out of that saw since then and it is one of my favourite saws for use at my workbench. It is great for cutting MDF.


----------



## CL810

I don't know whether to laugh or cry! ;-)



> one of my favourite saws for use at my workbench. It is great for cutting MDF.
> 
> - Brit


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## TheFridge

There are andrew fridges running around Scotland today or so my geneology tells me. Probably why I have a severe dislike of everything British but their tools


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## Brit

CL810 - I hate the stuff, but unfortunately I do have to use it from time to time and I've got to cut it somehow.

Fridge - I don't believe you.


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## TheFridge

:'( Damn. I can't get access to the geneology message board where the current family was discussed  . Ehh. There's probably a good chance I'm wrong anyway. When they came here they settled in a town called "scotlandville" which nowadays resembles a ghetto.










Edit: derived from Frigg which meant "to quiver". Well. Quiver me timbers


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## summerfi

This is my contribution to the 12 ppi handsaw discussion. It is a 20" Spear & Jackson panel for which I made a new handle. I think the saw always was 20", so I don't know why it has 4 screws instead of 3. It has several broken teeth near the toe if you're wondering why the toothline looks wanky. At the time I didn't feel like jointing and sharpening it again, as the teeth likely would have broken again during setting anyway.










While on the subject of small teeth on large saws, I'll throw out that I find sharpening miter saws a bit frustrating. They are almost always 11 ppi and they usually have relatively thick plates. The frustration comes in the setting. Small, thick teeth just don't want to bend very well. I've found that my Stanley 42X can produce almost no set on these saws, so I use my Somax, which is slightly more successful. I don't believe miter saws need a lot of set, but they do need some. Anyone else experience this issue? I once had an expert luthier ask me to make a saw for cutting bar fret slots on high end guitar fingerboards. Bar frets are thick, unlike the more common T-shaped frets, thus they require a thicker slot. He wanted a saw that was 16 ppi crosscut and, as I recall now, around .060" thick. That would make the teeth about as thick as they are tall. I didn't accept the challenge.


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## theoldfart

Bob, that Disston of mine without the handle must have driven you nuts! It's the heaviest of all my mitres.


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## summerfi

I wouldn't say nuts, Kevin, just a minor frustration. The 20" miter was a pleasure to sharpen though because the plate was thinner.


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## theoldfart

Looking forward to using all of them Bob.


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## bandit571

I may have a 30" mitre to send out….almost all the set is gone from it. Been using a 5×28 in the Langdon 75….


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## RWE

Bob: I am still a rookie at all of this. I have spent more time refurbishing tools than doing woodworking. When I was learning to sharpen, I followed Ron Herman (Popular Woodworking video library). Ron had a nice video, but I think I like the Brit's better at this point. Ron cautioned that the biggest mistake that you can make is to over set. So all of my early saws had mild set.

When I went to use the couple of rip saws that I had first done. Not enough set. Live and learn. Rip saws need more set for sure.

On the mitre saws, I think the quality of the saw may make a difference. I had no issues with any of the better mitre saws. I have a Simonds (used in a 358 Stanley) and an Atkins (that matches the 358 SW). However, I may be just setting them a little bit light. I have recently cut 2.5 by 2.5 Walnut on the 358 and it did not bind up. The stiffest and worst mitre saw was a clunky modern (USA) Disston with that thick plate, but unfortunately, I have not had a chance to exercise it or several others to see how they are working.

I keep acquiring tools and refurbing them. I think the drug crisis in the country is over rated. There is a tool refurb crisis.

I traded emails with Jon the other day about making vertical cuts in lumber on a mitre box in order to build a box with mitered sides. You are of course limited to you saw plate depth and I would use thinner stock as well. Probably have to plane them on a mitre shooting board after the cut. But I cannot see a case for using a mitre box where a heavy or full set is necessary, unless someone was working green wood.

The Spear and Jackson is a beauty. After looking at your handles and the Brit's, I am going back to the drawing board. I have been sanding the old finish off and going back with thinned BLO and topping that with thinned shellac. I think I will need to rethink that and go for a more toned color, stain or varnish.


----------



## ErikF

That's a pretty looking saw Bob.

I don't do much in the area of saw restoration but I thought I would share a portion of my day.

I've read about hammering bends out of a saw plate and actually tried it awhile back…ended up trashing the plate. Today I slowed down a bit and tried to find a technique that would work. I was expecting similar results to my last go of it, but it worked.

I took a to-do D8 off the wall and then bent it over my workbench.

Hammer used has a slightly rounded striking face and the anvil was my welding table.

I sighted the toothline and marked where it looked like the bend started and stopped. Once marked, I drew a center line and some strike lines. I worked outward from the center of the bend to where the bend stopped. I had to repeat the process a few times before the plate came back into alignment. I'm happy with the results- mostly the amount of control I had with the hammer vs. trying to bend the plate back into alignment.

Here is a video of the strike pattern I used.


----------



## summerfi

It looks like you have the tapping down pat Erik. It's amazing how well it works, isn't it? I use about an 8 oz. ball pein. I often use a piece of soft wood as a backer instead of an anvil too. Give that a try sometime. I've seen saws ruined by people who think you really have to flail on them. Gentle taps is all it takes.


----------



## RWE

Do any of you fellows that make saws do any tensioning in the saw plate? I have a D-12 that just sings when you wave it around. i understand the principle is to introduce tension in the plate to stiffen the cut line. Is that a dead art?

Erik: Was there a video or resource that you used to conjure up that solution. I tried once by bending the saw and hammering it while it was bent. That did not work. I was following a video on YouTube. I have some saws that have slight bends that I could test this on. Very interesting.


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## ErikF

Bob- I'll have to try a piece of wood the next go around. I now have a bit more motivation to dig into some of the wall hangers.

RWE- I didn't watch a video but I read about the process awhile back. It's not a difficult process but like anything, it takes a few practice runs to get the hang of it. As far as new saws go, I'll tap on the larger plates to add some stiffness but don't do much with the smaller ones. The taper ground saws really benefit from it since they're losing a lot of material- it takes away a lot of the plates stiffness. Hammer blows work harden the steel because it's pushing a small amount of steel to the point of plastic deformation. It gets harder but more brittle.


----------



## Brit

> : ( Damn. I can t get access to the geneology message board where the current family was discussed  . Ehh. There s probably a good chance I m wrong anyway. When they came here they settled in a town called "scotlandville" which nowadays resembles a ghetto.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: derived from Frigg which meant "to quiver". Well. Quiver me timbers
> 
> - TheFridge


Ok, I believe you. Nice part of the world if you're wearing the right clothes.


----------



## TheFridge

I just like to talk smack  my wife was in Scotland during the World Cup quite a few years ago and most in the office were wearing ABE buttons and whatnot and talking smack about England. I figured I'd carry on the tradition since I'm kind of a douche


----------



## chrisstef

kind of?


----------



## DLK

LOL


----------



## TheFridge

Ok. You got me. Full blown menstrual I am  the first step to getting better is admitting you have issues right?


----------



## chrisstef

Lol. Youre good Fridge. I couldnt pass the open opportunity.


----------



## Brit

Shaping the teeth on the C. Nurse panel saw.


----------



## putty

Nice picture
That is truly the case of a picture telling a thousand words.


----------



## summerfi

Andy, I know you are left handed, but do you actually shape saw teeth left handed, i.e. with the teeth pointing left to right? I second putty about that being a nice pic.


----------



## Brit

Yes I do Bob, in fact I do all the sharpening that way too after setting the teeth, even on a crosscut saw. In other words, in my first sharpening pass I'll file the front of the teeth leaning away from me and the back of the teeth leaning towards me. On that pass, the file handle is in my left hand and I hold the Veritas file holder with my right hand. Then on my second pass, I hold the file handle with my right hand and sharpen the front of the teeth leaning toward me and the back of the teeth leaning away from me. The first few stroke filing right-handed always feels a bit weird, but it doesn't take long to adapt. Changing hands means I don't have to contort my body trying to hold the file handle with my left hand on my second pass and it is a lot quicker than turning the saw around in the vice and getting it level again.

Although I adapted that spirit level to fit on my Veritas file gauge, this is the first time I've ever tried it. It works well, but I don't think the teeth are any better than they were without using it.


----------



## summerfi

Interesting Andy. I've recently adopted the approach of not flipping the saw around on crosscuts too. I feel I get a more consistent rake angle that way. I am still using a block of wood as a rake gauge, but I tape a level on top of it and find it very handy to have.


----------



## RWE

Good news to the rookie here. I don't flip my saws when crosscut sharpening and was feeling a lot of guilt. Now I am free to continue my errant ways. My conscious is clear.

Somewhere on the internet, I had seen a video where the fellow espoused that it was not necessary. I took him for his word, but always felt a nagging in the back of my mind.

If Bob and Andy say it is ok, it is ok. Like Bob, I felt that the rake angle was more consistent if you did not flip.


----------



## DanKrager

Tell me gents, when you file "into" the tooth point leaning towards you, does it feel like the file is cutting differently, as in it tends to feel like a plane cutting against the grain? I know there is little if any grain in the steel, but somehow it seems to me the file cuts more easily when it moves away from the point of a tooth than when it moves into the point.

???
DanK


----------



## Brit

*Bob* - I found that this time at least the level slowed me down because I was always checking it, but maybe that's a good thing.

*RWE* - It certainly isn't necessary to turn the saw plate around, but there's nothing wrong with doing it either. I think it became popular as the way to do it because that's what is advocated in Saw Filing--A Beginner's Primer which most people read when learning to sharpen their own saws. The author's reason for turning the saw around is that files cut smoother on the front of the tooth bending away from you and less smoothly on the back of the tooth bending towards you, because there is less vibration when filing a tooth bending in the same direction that the file is moving. By turning the saw around, you ensure that the front of every tooth is filed while it is bending away from you. In theory therefore, the front of each tooth should have the same level of smoothness.

Having said that, I think most professional filers do not turn the saw around. I used to think that sharpening from both sides was for beginners and sharpening from one side was an advanced technique, but that isn't true. Both methods work, so my recommendation is to try them both and pick the one that feels best to you.


----------



## Brit

Did that answer your question as well Dan, or at least explain why there is a difference?


----------



## RWE

Here is a shot of the EC Stearns and Co. vise that I use. I am showing it because it is one of the reasons that I don't flip the saw. It is a good vise, but it creates a lot of issues as well. Now that I have the Veritas Saw Guide, I am going to have to go with a conventional "Disston" style vise because the Veritas Guide bumps into the the locking lever in the the center of the Stearns.

You have dead areas where your file cannot cut on either side where the vertical supports block the file.

Since most of the saws are being refurbished, I usually have the handles off. The Stearns is not friendly to handles.

I used wood blocks like Bob, to set the rake angle and I would put another block that had two kerfs cut to give you a good fleam angle reference. Those blocks kept getting moved to dance around the vertical supports.

A late addition is using those printouts of the fleam angles. I find those work very well. The area where the lamp is sitting makes a great location to put those printouts. I will probably rig a platform on the next saw vise to use those.

Thanks for the info.


----------



## summerfi

I find that it does feel a bit different and takes a little getting used to. Think about it though, in either case you're filing one side of a tooth leaning towards you and one side of a tooth leaning away from you. Also, when using the Foley filers you don't flip the saw around, you swing the angle of the file around and file from the same side.


----------



## summerfi

Roger, you should make yourself a wooden saw vise. They work great, and I prefer them to all the metal vises except perhaps the large and expensive Acme, which I haven't tried.


----------



## RWE

Post a picture of your wooden vise sometime. I know "Brits" from the video. I have such a small shop that I did not want to get another sizable device to store. If I could devise one that would do a half a standard saw at a time, then that would probably work. I am now refurbing combo planes, so that is how it goes. I need to focus on one thing. I have 4 "Summerfield" table saws started and never get back to them.


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## Brit

Yeah I'd like to see your saw vise again Bob as I'm thinking of making a new one.



> I find that it does feel a bit different and takes a little getting used to. Think about it though, in either case you re filing one side of a tooth leaning towards you and one side of a tooth leaning away from you. Also, when using the Foley filers you don t flip the saw around, you swing the angle of the file around and file from the same side.
> 
> - summerfi


You are Bob, but the point he was making was that you want the best finish on the front of the tooth, so you should file it when it is leaning away from you, not when it is leaning towards you. Personally I think you'd have to look under a microscope to see the difference though.


----------



## JADobson

> the large and expensive Acme, which I haven t tried.
> 
> - summerfi


Do you mean this one Bob?










Don't ask how little I paid for it. 

Edit: it's the aluminum version.


----------



## Brit




----------



## summerfi

Yep, that's the Acme I was referencing. How do you like it?

My saw vise isn't fancy, but it gets the job done.


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## DanKrager

Yes, that answers the question, Brit. Thank you.

Bob brings up another point with the Foley filer. I had the whole Foley setup at one time (intending to get rich sharpening saws until I realized DUH it's all carbide) and when using the filer I noticed that I had trouble getting a straight cut with a blade sharpened on it until I realized what was really going on. The file, while cutting metal, also pushes some, especially at the intersection of the cut and the down-file surface of the plate, leaving a tiny bit of "flash" on the tooth. It's really a sharpening burr. With the filer, all that "flash" is on one side of the blade causing it to drift in the cut in that direction until the flash or burr is worn off. That's part of what led me to turn the blade around when I sharpen by hand, along with the (imagined) smoother cut.

DanK


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## Brit

Just run a little stone along the side of the teeth Dan from the toe to the heel. One of two light passes is all it takes to get rid of the flash.


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## TheFridge

> Just run a little stone along the side of the teeth Dan from the toe to the heel. One of two light passes is all it takes to get rid of the flash.
> 
> - Brit


+1


----------



## BenDupre

Thats what stoning is for.


----------



## JADobson

> Yep, that s the Acme I was referencing. How do you like it?
> 
> My saw vise isn t fancy, but it gets the job done.
> 
> - summerfi


To be honest I haven't had a chance to use it yet.


----------



## TheFridge

> Thats what stoning is for.
> 
> - BenDupre


I use against the infidels as well. Not.


----------



## summerfi

Fridge has a lot of experience with being stoned.


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## DanKrager

Yes, Fridge has no flash. He's smooth…cuts straight.

DanK


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## chrisstef

The lil spring clamp is so simple its smart as hell Bob. I just slapped myself in the face for being so stupid. Ive dumped a saw too many times.

Whoa. Acme vise is hooosssssss.


----------



## TheFridge

> Fridge has a lot of experience with being stoned.
> 
> - summerfi


That was like… not cool man… calling me out like that man…

Dan, straight isn't something I'm usually called


----------



## BrentParkin

I have been looking for a Foley retoother for some time now and finally one that is geographically near me has shown up. Since I'm learning all this as I go, I wonder if anyone can offer some tips. The person selling used to have a sharpening business and has a couple of these, a couple of filers and a couple of power sets. I'm pretty content filing by hand and I wouldn't use a power set either, but the retoother would make life a lot easier when making saws and fixing up some of the rough ones I find up here on the Canadian Prairies.

The seller sent me the pictures I'm attaching. Does anyone see anything glaringly wrong with stuff? I'll be talking with him today and will ask specifically about how many and which ratcher bars. There seem to be a pile of carriers but I don't know how to identify each of them.

Any opinions would be much appreciated.

Thanks,

Brent


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## summerfi

Brent, I can't see anything obviously missing from the machine. Here are a few things to look for. Make sure the punch is not chipped. That would make the machine useless. The punches do get dull over time and need resharpening. That's not a slam dunk to do yourself, but it is possible. They are ground to a specific angle as shown in the manual. See if the rubber drive wheel on the motor shaft that turns the flywheel is present and in good shape. That's kind of a weak point of the machine. They get brittle and crack and then disintegrate. New ones are available from Foley for about $25. A lot of people move the motor over and use a belt instead. See if the little tray that catches the punched out teeth is present. It is often missing.

There are three standard carriers - straight, crowned, and miter. There are also some optional carriers, a super-crowned one and one for backsaws, possibly others. There are 5 standard ratchet bars and a couple optional ones as well. Each ratchet bar will do either 2 or 3 different tooth pitches, depending on how you have the machine's advancing dog adjusted. Make sure the teeth on the ratchet bars are in good shape. They get worn and then your tooth spacing is irregular. The ratchet bars are often missing, hard to get, and they are worth more in resale value than all the rest of the machine together.


----------



## BrentParkin

Oh man to think there is one of those so close to Regina…. Someday I will find one. Maybe the guy with the retoother I'm talking to has one around somewhere LOL.



> the large and expensive Acme, which I haven t tried.
> 
> - summerfi
> 
> Do you mean this one Bob?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don t ask how little I paid for it.
> 
> Edit: it s the aluminum version.
> 
> - JADobson


----------



## BrentParkin

Well Bob I finally talked to the man on the phone. He closed his sharpening business 12 years ago and all the stuff is scattered around his garage. He seems to be getting a little senile and doesn't remember the ratchet bars anymore. So I sent him some pictures and he is going to scour his garage for them this weekend.

As for the actual machine, it is brand new in the box. It was his backup if the one they used broke down. So it has never even punched a tooth!!!!

He was able to find one ratchet bar right away but is unsure where the others are.

I'm crossing my fingers.



> Brent, I can t see anything obviously missing from the machine. Here are a few things to look for. Make sure the punch is not chipped. That would make the machine useless. The punches do get dull over time and need resharpening. That s not a slam dunk to do yourself, but it is possible. They are ground to a specific angle as shown in the manual. See if the rubber drive wheel on the motor shaft that turns the flywheel is present and in good shape. That s kind of a weak point of the machine. They get brittle and crack and then disintegrate. New ones are available from Foley for about $25. A lot of people move the motor over and use a belt instead. See if the little tray that catches the punched out teeth is present. It is often missing.
> 
> There are three standard carriers - straight, crowned, and miter. There are also some optional carriers, a super-crowned one and one for backsaws, possibly others. There are 5 standard ratchet bars and a couple optional ones as well. Each ratchet bar will do either 2 or 3 different tooth pitches, depending on how you have the machine s advancing dog adjusted. Make sure the teeth on the ratchet bars are in good shape. They get worn and then your tooth spacing is irregular. The ratchet bars are often missing, hard to get, and they are worth more in resale value than all the rest of the machine together.
> 
> - summerfi


----------



## Just_Iain

> Well Bob I finally talked to the man on the phone. He closed his sharpening business 12 years ago and all the stuff is scattered around his garage. He seems to be getting a little senile and doesn t remember the ratchet bars anymore. So I sent him some pictures and he is going to scour his garage for them this weekend.
> 
> As for the actual machine, it is brand new in the box. It was his backup if the one they used broke down. So it has never even punched a tooth!!!!
> 
> He was able to find one ratchet bar right away but is unsure where the others are.
> 
> I m crossing my fingers.
> 
> Brent, I can t see anything obviously missing from the machine. Here are a few things to look for. Make sure the punch is not chipped. That would make the machine useless. The punches do get dull over time and need resharpening. That s not a slam dunk to do yourself, but it is possible. They are ground to a specific angle as shown in the manual. See if the rubber drive wheel on the motor shaft that turns the flywheel is present and in good shape. That s kind of a weak point of the machine. They get brittle and crack and then disintegrate. New ones are available from Foley for about $25. A lot of people move the motor over and use a belt instead. See if the little tray that catches the punched out teeth is present. It is often missing.
> 
> There are three standard carriers - straight, crowned, and miter. There are also some optional carriers, a super-crowned one and one for backsaws, possibly others. There are 5 standard ratchet bars and a couple optional ones as well. Each ratchet bar will do either 2 or 3 different tooth pitches, depending on how you have the machine s advancing dog adjusted. Make sure the teeth on the ratchet bars are in good shape. They get worn and then your tooth spacing is irregular. The ratchet bars are often missing, hard to get, and they are worth more in resale value than all the rest of the machine together.
> 
> - summerfi
> 
> - BrentParkin


Good Luck Brent! If you are successful, I might be sending you some saws that need a retoothing!

You mentioned Regina. My Dad grew up in Rouleau and I still have family there farming.

Iain


----------



## BrentParkin

> Good Luck Brent! If you are successful, I might be sending you some saws that need a retoothing!
> 
> You mentioned Regina. My Dad grew up in Rouleau and I still have family there farming.
> 
> Iain


Rouleau!!! Whew, good thing it wasn't Wullerton!!! LOL (Hopefully you are a corner gas fan).


----------



## theoldfart

Got a package today from Mr. Summerfield, aka Santa! Goodies galore!









Three of my best mitre saws sharpened and a full restore of an 1875 Jackson mitre saw that goes with my Northampton Langdon.


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## Brit

Bob's been a busy boy and they all look fantastic. Kev you must have one of the nicest collections of miter boxes with saws ever assembled, but how do you decide which one to use?


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## theoldfart

It's tough Andy, after covering small, medium or large my mood comes into play! I don't use the Northampton too much because of its age and rarity. The All Steels are my workhorses, quite accurate and minimum fuss.


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## JADobson

> Oh man to think there is one of those so close to Regina…. Someday I will find one. Maybe the guy with the retoother I m talking to has one around somewhere LOL.
> 
> - BrentParkin


Saw it in the back of one of those "Random tools" kijiji ads. Asked him how much he wanted and he said $10. So I took it. Didn't know a thing about then other than that it was a saw vise. I've got a panel saw that needs retoothing maybe I can bring it by and we can work on some saws. (though I think the last time I was in Regina was 7 years ago).


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## RWE

I think Bob needs to share (again maybe) his technique for cleaning the plates. I assume it is hand sanded with fine grits and sanding blocks? Every time I see one of his restored saws they look like mirrors.


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## theoldfart

It does gleam doesn't it. Makes me downright giddy! And it's something like 140 + years old!


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## summerfi

Roger, I've gone completely away from using sandpaper on saw plates. You'll have to buy my book to find out my secret.


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## RWE

Can I guess it is some type of metal polish? Help! As soon as you get the book published, I will buy a copy.


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## DLK

> Roger, I ve gone completely away from using sandpaper on saw plates. You ll have to buy my book to find out my secret.
> 
> - summerfi


There's a book?


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## bandit571

Doubt IF I can afford to send three saws out to Bob…...5×30, 4×26, 4×18…..

Been using a 5×28 in the Langdon 75. Using a 4×24 in the #2246….the 18" would be for the GEM mitre box…


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## summerfi

These are your friend. The first pic is from Harbor Freight. There is a coarse one and a fine one, and you need them both. Use them ON EDGE only. The second pic is for the final polish. I got it off ebay but I don't see them listed there any more. Google Scotch Brite abrasive wheel and you'll probably find an alternate source.
















Bandit, my sharpening and restoration prices are listed on my website. I often take trades for work too.

DonK, the book hasn't been written yet, and probably never will be.


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## FoundSheep

Bob, if you ever do write a book (maybe co-written with Andy?) I'll be in line.


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## RWE

Well I feel vindicated. I have been using these in 400 grit and 80 grit, but they are eating me out of house and home. $10.00 a pop and one good tool will eat one alive. I just cleaned a Stanley 45 and totally destroyed one.

Harbor Freight (I call them softballs):










So I recently tried a product like your wheel on the bottom and because it has stiffeners (paper or fabric) in between the a pads, it seems to make a smoother finish.

I have been using the balls on planes, saws, chisels etc. and I like them, but the result has a lot of scratch pattern where the round edge cuts the rust. So, I will look into both of those and give them a try. Many thanks for the tip.


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## summerfi

I used the round balls at first. The problem I found is that they leave a transverse scratch pattern. The ones I posted leave a more linear pattern. The red string-type wheel in my first picture is very aggressive and will quickly clean up the rustiest saw. Follow it with the similar blue wheel and then the Scotch Brite cylinder to get the best finish. The other thing I like about those string wheels is that they do a pretty good job of cleaning the black gunk out of the bottom of pitting. I've not found anything else that will do that. Remember to use them only on edge or they will leave swirl marks.


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## RWE

Do you dance around the etch area? I may try to go over some of my saws with this technique to see what i can do with it. I watch Paul Sellers and he will pull out a vintage saw with spots and marks all over the plate, so I figure if it is good enough for Paul, it is good enough for me. But I lie to myself that way.

The WWII saws and the 30's saws etc., I would not hesitate to do this. I have to wonder if you would do it on the older split nut saws. I keep having hesitation about getting too aggressive in the restore and destroying the historical character of the saw. I take it that you have done enough of the older saws to feel okay about bringing them back as far as you can?

30 years ago (or so) I bought my first set of power tools from a crotchety old fellow who was kind of like: "here you go you dumb ass kid, squeeze me on price and you won't even know how to use half of what you are buying.", in his attitude. I guess I will be belligerent as well when I have to give up my tools. I got a Chicago Machinery drill press that must have been the Harbor Freight type of low end tool for his generation. You can't kill the thing. Use it all the time. So I will spin up some of these wheels and see what I can do.


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## bigblockyeti

Bob, have you tried using something like this: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01M25Q2ZV/_encoding=UTF8?coliid=I2PP4CFES28VEY&colid=2MQL9HQMI5LQX

It would give the linear pattern you desire probably much faster and could be a cost saver too if the sleeves hold up for several restore jobs.


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## summerfi

I've not used that, Yeti, but it looks like it would work well. I'll have to look into it.

Roger, I hand sand the etch area. If I use these wheels there at all, it is very lightly. Regarding using this on old saws, it depends on the saw. If it was a rare or very old saw, I would hand sand it, or possibly even just steel wool it with a lubricant and then wax it. If it was a common old saw, like a Disston & Sons No. 7, I wouldn't hesitate to use this method.


----------



## RossFar

I have a Henshaw & Woodrough backsaw and I am looking for information about it before I do something, like ruin it with restoration.

I Looked online and there is not a lot of information out there showing this maker's saws.

I did learn that Henshaw was born in England and made saws in the Attleborough Boston area. 1840-1850 Partnered with Woodrough.

Does anyone know much about these saws and if they have any collector historical value. I would like to clean it up and restore but I do not want to destroy a 150-year-old saw if that is what this is.


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## theoldfart

Tested two of the saws from Bob. First up(my favorite) the Jackson and the Northampton Langdon. 1 3/8" white oak. Went right through with no effort. Clean cut.









Next up the 6" Disston and the Millers Falls Langdon #16. 12/4 cherry. Again right through with minimal effort and a good clean cut.









I now have eight saws from Bob. Five of them restored. Can't say enough about the quality of his work.


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## summerfi

Thank you Kevin. I'm glad you're pleased with the saws.


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## summerfi

RossFar - Woodrough is obviously a partner of the well known Woodrough & McParlin company, maker of the panther head saw. I know nothing about Henshaw, but a search on that name on Wkfinetools turned up these links. I would say you definitely have a very collectable saw worth in excess of $100 and possibly up to a few hundred $$. My suggestion would be to keep it in original condition with only a light clean up to stop the existing rust. If you are in need of a user dovetail saw, there are many available without high collector value. This saw is one that I believe should be preserved.


----------



## RossFar

Bob thanks for the reply, I look through that site and after finding really nothing else, I decided to post here.

It looks like Henshaw and Woodrough were Partners with an ad in the Boston directory in 1849.

following the ads shows William Clemson joined the company and it is Henshaw, Woodrough & Clemson in an 1852 ad.
By 1855 the ads show that Woodrough has left (off to Ohio and Woodrough & McParlin) and it is now Henshaw & Clemson.

By 1861 it is just Henshaw & Co.

so by that my best guess is this little saw was made sometime around 1848 to 1851 or over 160 years old. There is no rot in the wood but the pins and handle are loose on the saw plate and the back clamp is bent.

I am thinking of lightly cleaning and oiling the steel and boiled linseed oil on the handle with some new past wax but no scraping or sanding the handle.

I just wish I could see an image of someone else's online. Nothing.

I love old tools and their stories. My dad is a carpenter/machinist/jack of all trades and I come from a long line of Machine tool workers and hill farmers from Vermont. Grew up in Windsor, Right in the middle of Precision Valley. so I like to collect engineer wrenches, Billing and Spencer and Stillson Pipe wrenches. Saws and chisels are my new passion and it seems that if it is not a Disston or Akins there is not much information out there.


----------



## summerfi

You are probably about right on the dates. It is interesting how the old saw makers formed, broke, and reformed partnerships. When Clemson left the Henshaw partnership he joined up with Wheeler, Madden & Clemson, replacing Bakewell in that partnership. I agree it is too bad there is not more information on the lesser known American saw makers. WKfinetools is about the best there is.

I personally don't recommend putting boiled linseed oil on saw handles, as it darkens the wood and attracts dirt. Others disagree with that though. I think a better choice would be to lightly buff the handle with fine steel wool and then apply 2 or 3 coats of good paste wax.


----------



## RossFar

Bob thanks, I will go slow with this one. I think it will be a wall hanger. The saw bolts are loose but I do not think I can safely remove them. One looks like a rivet and the other is a split nut. I wonder if that was added later?

I am not sure when they switch from rivets to spilt nuts but I think it is strange to have both.


----------



## summerfi

It's likely the saw originally had split nut screws. It is common to see rivets used as replacements on old saws when the screws become broken or lost. Rivets were used before the invention of split nut screws, but that was back in the 1700's before saws were made in America.


----------



## BrentParkin

Why is it that whenever I find something I need on Craigslist, it is in a city far far away. LOL. Been looking for a Foley foot powered saw setter for ages, and then there it is. Only 12 hours of driving each way. Someday.


----------



## Just_Iain

> Good Luck Brent! If you are successful, I might be sending you some saws that need a retoothing!
> 
> You mentioned Regina. My Dad grew up in Rouleau and I still have family there farming.
> 
> Iain
> 
> Rouleau!!! Whew, good thing it wasn t Wullerton!!! LOL (Hopefully you are a corner gas fan).
> 
> - BrentParkin


The Corner Gas Station was built on a corner of one of my Aunts fields. And the grain silo is owned by one of my cousins.


----------



## bandit571

Work in Progress…









Wood is Maple…..


----------



## Brit

Looking good there Bandit.


----------



## BlasterStumps

I have a little Stanley sharp tooth toolbox saw that is plenty sharp but it butchers the wood something awful. I like the size of the saw but would like to get rid of the hardened teeth and file in some crosscut teeth in about 8 or 10 ppi. I'm wondering what my options for grinding or cutting the tooth line off would be if they are heat treated teeth? I have a 4-1/4" angle grinder but I would think the heat treated teeth would eat up my disc. I have hack saws and jig saw with metal cutting blades, would that work? I also have a carbide tooth that I can scribe or actually cut with if I want to spend forever doing it. Or should I just cut the saw plate up for cabinet scrapers? : (

Mike


----------



## DanKrager

Blaster, why not reshape the hardened tooth to suit? There are diamond grit triangular files that would do the trick. But the blades were made to be disposable, so to pay for the file, you'd have to do a lot of re-work!

DanK


----------



## Tim457

Paul Sellers responded to my suggestion of using diamond triangular files to sharpen hardened teeth by saying that the material bonding the diamonds to the file won't last very long with the edges going into hardened steel in that way. He said you'd go through a lot of expensive files. I had some success using it, but it was a cheap harbor freight diamond file so I wasn't too concerned and it was too coarse a file to get the saw properly sharp, so I didn't pursue it.

Blaster, couple ways I would try are a grinding wheel but angled at 45 degrees or so so the wheel spins off the teeth. That would avoid the hardened teeth digging in and I bet it wouldn't tear up the grinding wheel. The other way if that didn't work would be a cutting disk cutting a line just above the gullets of the teeth. Last would be a diamond embedded grinding wheel. Any of these ideas are way more work than warranted for a saw that is meant to be disposable like Dan said. But that hasn't stopped me, I like to keep from throwing away something useful if I can too.


----------



## RossFar

Why not try Annealing the metal by heating it until it loses its magnetic property. thus softening the metal to allow you to remove the teeth. then heat treating the edge to harden it for cutting and sharpening your new teeth.

This would be cheaper than wasting an expensive file on the saw blade and would be a fun adventure into Metallurgy.

Nothing loss because it is a replaceable saw but a bit of learning about how saw blades were created.

Just my two cents, not worth much…

Anyway here is a good article online about heat treating and tempering metals.

Link


----------



## bigblockyeti

Mike, I think the grinder option would be your best bet. I'd use a cutoff disc and cut behind the tips to minimize the chance of one digging in and prematurely shortening the life of the disc, then file in new teeth.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Thanks to all of you for your responses on the removal of the hardened teeth. I know the little saw is not worth much but it looks like it could be a handy little thing if it had regular crosscutting teeth. If I am successful in getting the saw changed over to regular teeth, I will post a picture. 
Thanks everybody.
Mike


----------



## BlasterStumps

Pretty interesting bow saw project you got going there Bandit. I'm anxious to see the finished saw. Was the blade and other hardware a kit?
Mike


> Work in Progress…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wood is Maple…..
> 
> - bandit571


----------



## bandit571

No kit, just parts that were on hand..









Mortises and tenons test fit…..add a clamp to check tension..









Used a chisel and a spokeshave today..









Had to round over the corners a bit









Waiting on a rod for across the top.


----------



## bandit571

Now that the rod is installed..









Turned out to be a fine crosscut saw…









No tear-out on the backside of the cut….









Will put a coat of amber shellac on the maple later…


----------



## BlasterStumps

I worked on the little Stanley saw today. I did as Tim suggested and tilted my angle grinder down on the teeth from one side. They ground off quite easily that way leaving a nearly straight line. I trued it up with a big file and have about 1/3 of the new teeth cut in. My arm got tired so I gave it up for today. I cleaned the handle of all the old finish, superglued a couple cracks and sanded it good, then gave it some BLO. I know the little saw is not worth much but I'm going to press on and finish it. If it cuts good, it will came in handy I'm sure. Thanks Tim for the suggestion. It didn't hurt my grinder wheel at all. I went slow so I didn't heat any place along the tooth line too much. Judging by how hard it is to file new teeth in, I know I didn't take the temper out of the metal. 
Mike

Bandit, that saw is coming along nicely. Congrats. I'll have to try one of those sometime.


----------



## BrentParkin

Well I did pickup the retoother and a pile of ratchet bars and carriers. I'll let you know once I get it sorted out. It may take a bit, I'm super busy with art shows nearly every weekend until after Sun Dog in your neck of the woods.

Brent


> Oh man to think there is one of those so close to Regina…. Someday I will find one. Maybe the guy with the retoother I m talking to has one around somewhere LOL.
> 
> - BrentParkin
> 
> Saw it in the back of one of those "Random tools" kijiji ads. Asked him how much he wanted and he said $10. So I took it. Didn t know a thing about then other than that it was a saw vise. I ve got a panel saw that needs retoothing maybe I can bring it by and we can work on some saws. (though I think the last time I was in Regina was 7 years ago).
> 
> - JADobson


----------



## summerfi

Congrats Brent. If you end up with extras of any of the non-standard ratchet bars, I'd be interested.


----------



## BrentParkin

Thanks Bob. I was quite excited. The machine is brand new in its box. Everything seems just perfect on it. The ratchet bars sat in the garage 12 years and are covered in light rust, so once I clean them up, I'll know what I have. So far I did notice one 15 point bar, so I'm crossing my fingers. He gave me 14 ratchet bars in all. I think 10 carriers!!

So how does one identify what each carrier is? Except for one odd looking one, they all look pretty much the same to me. LOL.

Brent



> Congrats Brent. If you end up with extras of any of the non-standard ratchet bars, I d be interested.
> 
> - summerfi


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## summerfi

If you sight down the carriers, one is straight and one is curved (for breasted saws). The three holder bars are offset on the miter carrier to account for the saw back. If you need a copy of the manual let me know, or I think it's also available to download on the internet. Finding a brand new retoother is quite a find!

The ratchet bars I'd really like to find are 12 ppi and 16 ppi. Those are two of the optional ones and hard to find.


----------



## Tim457

Awesome find, Brent.

Blaster, glad it worked out. I have so much fun with an angle grinder, I would do that on something just for fun too. Sparks, noise, grinding metal, what's not to like. Funny enough just about the opposite of that is what I enjoy about hand tools.


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## BlasterStumps

I finished the little Stanley saw. Unfortunately, unless they can do something for me at my next eye apt in early January, I may be finished as far as saw sharpening goes. My up-close vision was so messed up this morning that I had a bad headache from straining to see. I have a certain amount of double vision which really makes looking at small things like saw teeth nearly impossible, even when using a ring lamp and a magnifying headset. I sort of did these teeth by feel more than sight so they are not too good. Anyway, 'nuff winning', here is the little saw. Surprisingly enough, it cuts quite well given the fact that it doesn't have a very long blade so not much weight to help in the cutting. I'm afraid it will have to do. 
Mike


----------



## Bertha

sharpened my first saw this week based on the advice I got here. It's an old Hope 18 tpi rip 10" open handle DT saw and now I can see how y'all are so obsessed with saw sharpening. Nice quiet time. And the saw works amazingly. Thanks for the help.


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## summerfi

We need pictures Bertha. Is it a British saw?

I agree there is something mesmerizing about sharpening a saw . My favorite time is at night with the lights off except the one above my saw vise. That helps me see the flats on the teeth better. Put on a little quiet music and it's as good as a therapy session.


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## revrok

Pics or it didn't happen  !


> sharpened my first saw this week based on the advice I got here. It s an old Hope 18 tpi rip 10" open handle DT saw and now I can see how y all are so obsessed with saw sharpening. Nice quiet time. And the saw works amazingly. Thanks for the help.
> 
> - Bertha


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## theoldfart

Bob, is it the same process when you run the saw mill?


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## Tim457

Going in for an 18tpi saw for your first try is a bold move, well done.


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## revrok

No kidding! RESPECT! I'm starting with a nice 10 tpi handsaw! I am working up my courage for the DT saw!


> Going in for an 18tpi saw for your first try is a bold move, well done.
> 
> - Tim


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## Thalweg

I picked up a couple of saws at a garage sale a while back. I paid $1 each for them, so I figured I wasn't out much if they weren't any good.

I did a little Googling to try to figure out what they are, and only had partial success. The lower one in the photo is a Disston D-15 Victory Saw. From what I've gathered, it must be post-1951 because it does not have a walnut or laminate handle, and I can't see Morse Code above the V.

The upper one in the photo is more of a puzzler for me. The nuts on the handle say Disston, but those are the only markings I can find, so unless someone swapped nuts, I must assume it's a Disston. However, the handle shape and bolt pattern don't match any of the on-line references that I've found. Does anyone know what this is?


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## BrentParkin

So I have been using an old course sharpening stone to tune the set on saws but this stone seems awfully course. Anyone have a suggestion for an appropriate replacement out of the Lee Valley catalogue?

Thanks,

Brent


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## revrok

RESPECT, so sorry that you suffered for that, but way to stick it out. This thread may start actually making old handsaws rarer and sharper!



> I finished the little Stanley saw. Unfortunately, unless they can do something for me at my next eye apt in early January, I may be finished as far as saw sharpening goes. My up-close vision was so messed up this morning that I had a bad headache from straining to see. I have a certain amount of double vision which really makes looking at small things like saw teeth nearly impossible, even when using a ring lamp and a magnifying headset. I sort of did these teeth by feel more than sight so they are not too good. Anyway, nuff winning , here is the little saw. Surprisingly enough, it cuts quite well given the fact that it doesn t have a very long blade so not much weight to help in the cutting. I m afraid it will have to do.
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - BlasterStumps


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## RWE

Brent:

I use a small diamond plate, about 6 inches long. Some of the internet experts show using a standard mill file. They will say use a full size one but just pull it over the toothline and do not put any pressure on it, just the weight of the file. I have used an Arkansas stone. You don't need anything special, just match the aggression of the file/stone to the TPI, higher TPI, finer file/stone.

You draw a couple of cut lines on a good test board. If it pulls to one side, run the stone/diamond/file (whatever) on the side the it pulls to. Rinse and repeat, till you can cut a line.

You don't want to erase all your set with an aggressive file. You will get a feel for how the slight adjustments can change the cut line. Just be prepared to make several cuts to get it right. Sometimes you get lucky.


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## summerfi

*Kevin *- the sawmill is just hard work, but still fun. There's nothing like opening up a log and being the first human eyes to see the beautiful wood inside.

*Thalweg *- I'd say that's a Frankensaw. Definitely not a Disston handle. The three medallions are certainly replacement screws. Perhaps you'll be able to find an etch when you start cleaning it up.

*Brent *- I use a cheap diamond stone from Harbor Freight for side dressing saws. Works pretty well.


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## Brit

> We need pictures Bertha. Is it a British saw?
> 
> I agree there is something mesmerizing about sharpening a saw . My favorite time is at night with the lights off except the one above my saw vise.
> - summerfi


Lights on or lights off. It makes no difference to me once I don my blindfold and channel the force.


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## ErikF

I see ratchet bars, a topic near and dear to my heart has come up. Below I have pictured a few bars I've made for my Foley retoother.

I started out with 1/4" mild steel square stock.

I used a Bridgeport mill to make these but there are other methods.

1.) If you have access to a mill. Use a dovetail cutter and kick the head out as close to 90 degrees as you can get. Set your zeros and start notching.

2.) Make an excel document with the lines spaced to whichever pitch you desire the ratchet bar, glue it to the stock, bust out a needle file and cut a small groove at each line. Once the the grooves are in place, pull out a bigger file and file the same you would a rip saw.

3.) Create a CAD file (or have someone make one for you) of the pitch desired. A hobby level CNC can use an engraving bit to leave very accurate scribe lines in mild steel. Still have to file the bar but the starting point will be accurate.

Drill and tap a hole on the back of the bar- use a 10-32 hex cap to hold the bar to the carrier.

Another topic I'll throw my $.02 at is the diamond file for sharpening. I'd agree that a diamond file is't a good way to go but a triangular stone works well. I don't use them for the initial filing, I do use them to to remove the last bit of material. They need to be dressed regularly but the saw will be sharper and cut smoother. Also, there is less chance of over filing a tooth…sometimes that shiny spot is a bur and not a flat. McMaster Carr has these stones in all types of grits and sizes. A file just can't achieve the same edge quality a stone can.


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## bandit571

> I picked up a couple of saws at a garage sale a while back. I paid $1 each for them, so I figured I wasn t out much if they weren t any good.
> 
> I did a little Googling to try to figure out what they are, and only had partial success. The lower one in the photo is a Disston D-15 Victory Saw. From what I ve gathered, it must be post-1951 because it does not have a walnut or laminate handle, and I can t see Morse Code above the V.
> 
> The upper one in the photo is more of a puzzler for me. The nuts on the handle say Disston, but those are the only markings I can find, so unless someone swapped nuts, I must assume it s a Disston. However, the handle shape and bolt pattern don t match any of the on-line references that I ve found. Does anyone know what this is?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Thalweg


Second saw….someone trying to make a D-99 out of the saw?


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## Thalweg

> I picked up a couple of saws at a garage sale a while back. I paid $1 each for them, so I figured I wasn t out much if they weren t any good.
> 
> I did a little Googling to try to figure out what they are, and only had partial success. The lower one in the photo is a Disston D-15 Victory Saw. From what I ve gathered, it must be post-1951 because it does not have a walnut or laminate handle, and I can t see Morse Code above the V.
> 
> The upper one in the photo is more of a puzzler for me. The nuts on the handle say Disston, but those are the only markings I can find, so unless someone swapped nuts, I must assume it s a Disston. However, the handle shape and bolt pattern don t match any of the on-line references that I ve found. Does anyone know what this is?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Thalweg
> 
> Second saw….someone trying to make a D-99 out of the saw?
> 
> - bandit571


I pulled the handle off of the "Frankensaw" last night. Indeed, it appears to be a compilation of parts. There are plenty of extra holes for a different bolt patterns. The brass medallion says "Warranted Superior". Was there a Superior brand saw?

I cleaned the blade up pretty well, and there are no etchings. The saw is relatively sharp and straight. So I also cleaned up the handle and gave it a couple of coats of BLO. It'll make a good working saw.


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## revrok

Ironically those medallions were often on cheaper line saws (though not actually inferior). There is usually an eagle on an American made medallion and some kind of imperial symbol on a British saw. The real experts here can correct my foolishness if I'm wrong, LOL. I would say that plate and handle did not start life together however. Should be a good user though!


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## RWE

On the Frankensaw, the plate looks a bit narrow at the tip. You might have a fun project by converting it into a panel saw and making your own handle. The PPI looks to be a bit coarse, maybe 8 PPI at best but I like having panel saws in all PPI ranges and rip and crosscut. If you are not inclined to make a handle, buy some more cheapo saws that are rusted out and not worth bringing back and get a set of regular saw nuts since it looks like your recesses are not enlarged.

I would not buy the new split nut variety since they are so expensive, but cutting that saw back to a panel saw and a proper set of old saw nuts would make a good user.

Be patient and let it sit a while and one day you will see a $5 rusted out saw with a nice set of saw nuts that you can use.

Like Tim said above, an old Warranted Superior saw can be a great user. I have several that I really like. You also have the extra bonus of trying to decide which medallion that you wish to keep.


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## summerfi

> Ironically those medallions were often on cheaper line saws (though not actually inferior). There is usually an eagle on an American made medallion and some kind of imperial symbol on a British saw. The real experts here can correct my foolishness if I m wrong, LOL. I would say that plate and handle did not start life together however. Should be a good user though!
> 
> - Tim Royal


Here's the scoop on Warranted Superior medallions. http://lumberjocks.com/Brit/blog/38689


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## Thalweg

Thanks guys. This is all very interesting. I've always been more of a power tool guy, but I've been picking up some old hand planes, these old saws, and I inherited some of my grandfathers old tools. I've always considered the people who could do quality work with hand tools to be the true woodworkers. I'm just a hack, but have aspirations of becoming a truer woodworker.

Maybe I'll hit some junk shops this weekend…


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## theoldfart

Weg, some damn fine woodworkers are tailed tool types. My choice to use hand tools isn't a philosophical one, I do have a band saw and planer. I am interested in learning how all the tools manufactured in my area work. I'll also add that I have breathing issues and hand tools create less fine dust.


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## RWE

Weg, I got into a hand tool versus power tool discussion on the miter box thread a while back. don't sweat it. Use whatever you have and just grow your craft. I started out life as a kid using handsaws to cut up two by fours and using a brace and bit to bore holes for no purpose. I have been through the whole power tool progression and consider myself a decent turner. I have better power tools now than I had for most of my woodworking life (mid sixties) and I got interested in hand tools and have been obsessed with that now for two or three years. I go through phases. Everything interests me. So follow your nose. If you are learning and growing and enjoying it then just go with it. Right now Paul Sellers sits on the right hand of the throne for me and I love a handsaw and a plane. I am refurbing some Stanley 45's now. Just keep at it and follow your nose.

For me, hand tools are like reverting back to my childhood. I want to learn to use them properly. Next year I may be back on the lathe obsessed with tuning again.


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## Thalweg

I think one of my biggest problems is patience. Historically, I haven't really been focused on process as much as product. Theoretically, it hasn't made sense for me to spend hours planing a board when I can run it through the planer in seconds. Plus, I can't manage to operate a hand plane effectively. Same thing with hand saws. I can make a straighter cut faster with my table saw or miter saw.

However, over the last couple of years I've been migrating more to the process side and slowing down a bit. On most of my projects, I now focus on minimizing hardware. I feel rather defeated if I have to resort to using a screw instead of a joint. I'm starting to look at my work, and thinking "wouldn't it be cool if I could do that the way my grandfather did". It's just a new challenge, and if I'm not challenging myself; what's the point? Additionally, as I'm sure you all know, occasionally we run into a problem that a power tool can't do as efficiently as a hand tool. I need to build that skill.

I recently discovered Paul Sellers, and have been watching some of his videos. He's got me trying to restore some old planes that have been laying around the shop for years.


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## summerfi

Working on some saws to add to the "saws for sale" inventory on my website. All Atkins and Disstons.


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## revrok

Thalweg- I'm definitely a hybrid worker. Like you I am learning the handtool "process." I am finding myself reaching for hand tools when I am in a hurry more and more often though. Sometimes not needing the set up time just saves in the short run. I have to admit just holding a 100 year old tool and getting great results from it makes me pretty happy. Great sharing.



> I think one of my biggest problems is patience. Historically, I haven t really been focused on process as much as product. Theoretically, it hasn t made sense for me to spend hours planing a board when I can run it through the planer in seconds. Plus, I can t manage to operate a hand plane effectively. Same thing with hand saws. I can make a straighter cut faster with my table saw or miter saw.
> 
> However, over the last couple of years I ve been migrating more to the process side and slowing down a bit. On most of my projects, I now focus on minimizing hardware. I feel rather defeated if I have to resort to using a screw instead of a joint. I m starting to look at my work, and thinking "wouldn t it be cool if I could do that the way my grandfather did". It s just a new challenge, and if I m not challenging myself; what s the point? Additionally, as I m sure you all know, occasionally we run into a problem that a power tool can t do as efficiently as a hand tool. I need to build that skill.
> 
> I recently discovered Paul Sellers, and have been watching some of his videos. He s got me trying to restore some old planes that have been laying around the shop for years.
> 
> - Thalweg


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## terryR

Good stuff, Bob.

I have two LN plates in front of me that are ready to send out for your expert sharpening service.


----------



## bandit571

Latest arrival, hanging out with it's twin..










Compare to what it looked like, when it came in the door…










4" x 24" 11 ppi…..









Looks right at home….


----------



## GlenintheNorth

> I recently discovered Paul Sellers, and have been watching some of his videos. He s got me trying to restore some old planes that have been laying around the shop for years.
> 
> - Thalweg


Also check out Richard Maguire over at theenglishwoodworker.com. That guy's great too. Especially look for his Richard Rants videos. They are no bull. Look for his videos on the chipbreaker. They'll show you just how they work, and even better, when you don't need them.

His new "scruffy dovetails" rant is perfect meat for a saw thread.


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## Mosquito

Richard was a good source of videos, I just wish he'd go back to offering more free videos. He rarely posts new videos on YouTube anymore and most often they're promoting his paid videos.


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## Tim457

Yeah, I can't blame him though, hope he makes some decent money from it.


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## Cbastiaan

I bought myself a nice handsaw and I'm going to restore this old handsaw, but the bolts used in this saw, do not have a slot for a screwdriver.
Is there anyone how could help me with what kind of tool, tip I can remove them?
I always could make my own slots, but I rather remove them as the came.

Any help is appreciated.

See the pictures below


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## summerfi

Cbastiaan, I have a cheap Spear & Jackson with "bolts" just like that. I've never figured out how to take them apart. I suspect they are not bolts at all, but rather a type of rivet that was never intended to be taken apart. The only way I know to remove them is to drill them out and then replace them with actual saw screws. I think this type of attachment was used on some low priced saws. My recommendation would be to restore the saw without removing the handle.

What brand of saw is that? I've never seen a medallion like that. The medallion placement is typical of German saws.


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## Cbastiaan

Hi Bob (summerfi); it is a johann Peter Joeker saw and I believe it is indeed a German saw.
I can't find much about it, but I heard it is the founder of the tools bacho.

I think the way you describe is the best way, drilling them out. It has a bit of slack on the handle so…..


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## Brit

Yeah, I think drilling them out is your only option there Cbastiaan.

Nice saws Bob and just in time for Christmas.


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## Cbastiaan

Well, when I decide to drill them out, i will try to make my own slot, by grinding it in.
Try it that way to loosen them and maybe I can keep the handle intact.

Thanks foor the reply guys…


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## TheFridge

Kick its a$$ C-Bas.


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## Cbastiaan

For the people who want to know what type of saw this is and its manufacturer, here is some info:
https://www.holzwerken.de/museum/hersteller/joeker_joh_peter.phtml

Its in German


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## johnstoneb

Summerfi
Bob
I was curious if there were any foley showing up in Boise. And found this in Kalispel. I'm not driving to Kalispel to look at it.
https://kalispell.craigslist.org/tls/d/knife-ax-blade-sharpening-set/6339305305.html


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## summerfi

Thanks Bruce. If I didn't already have the Foley equipment I would jump on that.


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## theoldfart

Here's a saw you don't see very often:


















The saw is a scie a recaler and used with a boite a regaler!  get out your French dictionaries kids!


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## Brit

très agreeable!


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## theoldfart

How do you say family shot in French?


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## duckmilk

I tried some translations Kev, and what I am coming up with is a flush cut saw for use in a miter jack?
Some images I saw of some, the teeth reversed direction in the middle of the saw?
Just looking at images and trying to understand the (poor) translation that google offers.


----------



## duckmilk

Ah, you both posted before I could.


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## theoldfart

"flush cut saw for use in a miter jack" Your exactly right Duck.

As for the tooth orientation, I'll have to look more closely. I'll get back to you when my eyes stop watering from straining.


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## theoldfart

BTW, Mr. Summerfield aka Rocky Mountain Saw Works, I'm hoping the saw can take a spa visit with you some time.


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## summerfi

I'm worried about you Kevin. It started with those cabriole legs. Now you're speaking in French. I see ballet lessons in your future.


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## theoldfart

You should see me in a tutu.


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## summerfi

Maybe Santa will bring you this outfit.


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## duckmilk

Hehehe!


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## theoldfart

Bob, Sue say's I look better than that in a TuTu. How'd she know that? I'm pretty sure I haven't told about my closet issue!


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## summerfi

Hey Kev, how is the blade attached to the handle? Being a flush cut saw, the blade must have either no set, or set only on one side? What sort of a date would you give the saw? Any markings on it?


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## theoldfart

Bob, the plate has countersunk slotted screws into the handle. It appears to be set on one side only. There are no markings that I can see. It was sold to me as a French saw and Patrick Edwards(Old Brown Glue and a graduate of cole Boulle in Paris) has a similar saw. Think the saw predates 1900.

I'll post a pic from "under her skirts" shortly.


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## duckmilk

I wore a TuTu once. I was in a comedy skit with a bunch of other guys in front of an audience. We had a really good routine we performed and got a lot of laughs. Hairy legs and all. Luckily, there were no pics from under my skirt.


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## TheFridge

Sacre bleu!


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## theoldfart

C'mon Summerfi, now I find the saw does have a mark!









And a behind shot









BTW it's 21" by 5"

Edit: I found a French vintage tool blog with a thread devoted to these saws. Here

Edit: another French site with a similar saw, about half way down the page


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## summerfi

I can't read the mark in the picture. Does it have an extra sheet of steel over the blade to help retain the blade? If so, it appears to be very similar to this one. http://www.leevalley.com/us/newsletters/Woodworking/4/6/whatisit.htm


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## chrisstef

Thats it. Im headin north. Oldfart in a tutu and a working relic of a saw is more than this guy can handle. Just dont go gettin excited when ya see me kevin. Aint nothin to hide in your dance outfit.


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## theoldfart

Bob, mine looks almost the same just longer and the blade does not extend out of the non-tooth side.

That's the blog that got me going looking for the saw to begin with. I wrote to Patrice LeJune after reading the article and he pointed me to Patrick Edwards site( they are partners and Patrice is an LJ).

I think I'm falling down yet another rabbit hole!


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## theoldfart

Stef, I'm harmless(most of the time) and more importantly my shots are up to date!

Actually do stop by, I have an excess of stock and I'd prefer to give some of it to LJ's so PM if interested.


----------



## waho6o9

Paul Sellers has an interesting article on saws:

https://paulsellers.com/2017/11/saved-saw-perfect-teeth/?pk_campaign=feed&pk_kwd=saved-saw-perfect-teeth&__s=ejrzkqvp7tqzr3hsmxhp


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## bandit571

"Moving Sale" this morning…









Two expensive saws…$18 for the pair….









Bolt pattern like a D-8, 7ppi, 26" long, cover-top handle Still very sharp!
The other one?









Needs a few bolts…..may get a WS medallion? It does have the remains…








Of a nib. Not too hateful of a COLD morning?









Need to llok up Disston handle types, now….


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## TheFridge

Fart, that from behind shot is awesome.


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## bandit571

Looks like a D-112. The other saw? really not worth the effort to rehab. Took it's handle off, found a whole bunch of extra holes….plate has a lot of pitting. Will concentrate on the Disston crosscut.


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## bandit571

Trashed the nib saw..









Too many holes, does not match any handles I have….and..









Too much of this stuff…..

The D-112 cleaned up rather nice..









Clocked the screws…









Couple of wipe-on coats of amber shellac…..









A couple of test cuts…..will not need a sharpening….










Might just be a "Keeper"?


----------



## ksSlim

Good buy Bandit


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## BlasterStumps

Nice job on the D-112 saw Bandit. I've not seen any D-112's in the wild so far. Good find.

Seeing the other saw plate with all the extra mounting holes in it brings me to ask a question on punching holes. I have an antique but little used Whitney 4-B hole punch. Quite similar to the newer No. 5 punches. I'm wondering if this 4-B will punch saw plate? I don't want to ruin a punch attempting something I should not be trying so I want to see if anyone else uses a punch on saw plate? I'm hoping if will be strong enough because I really dislike drilling saw plate even with a cobalt step bit.


----------



## bandit571

I usually just use a masonry bit. Saw plate is a bit on the hard side….Not sure a punch could get through it.


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## Tim457

ErikF punches saws, but I don't know anything about the capacity of the punch that is needed. I think he uses a fly press not something handheld though.


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## BlasterStumps

I did some more searching online about using a metal punch on saw plate. Not much info out there so I decided I would give it a try on a piece of Disston plate. I am excited. It went thru it with very little effort. Worked perfectly. Mounting handles without the worry of having to drill the plate really appeals to me. I was being safe in drilling by using a cobalt step bit that wouldn't grab the metal once it passed thru but, I don't have a dedicated metal working area so I was always concerned with hot fragments flying off as I drilled. 
Here is a pic of the hole I just punched, (small one close to edge) and, a pic of the Whitney tool:


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## RWE

You have caught my interest with the punch technique. Do me a favor and look at these Amazon metal punch offerings and see if you think any of them would be comparable to your Whitney punch.

https://www.amazon.com/Capri-Tools-21050-Metal-Puncher/dp/B00OM4GVX0/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1512229752&sr=8-8&keywords=metal+hole+punch

https://www.amazon.com/Capri-Tools-21050-Metal-Puncher/dp/B00OM4GVX0/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1512229752&sr=8-8&keywords=metal+hole+punch

https://www.amazon.com/PLR-137-00-Euro-Power-Punch-Plier/dp/B003Y8R38W/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&qid=1512229752&sr=8-12&keywords=metal+hole+punch

I have used a standard punch to make a starter hole for the drill bit to ease the cutting operation. One of the saw making sites suggested that method. Essentially, you punch enough to make a small point on the reverse side of where you hammered the punch, then you flip it and punch the dimple back, rinse and repeat until you get a small hole. The small perforation aids the drill bit and makes for an easier cut. You need to be careful to not strike so hard as to deform the saw plate.

I like the idea of being able to punch the hole a lot, assuming that you can figure out a way to be precise in lining up the location of the hole to match the saw handle's holes.


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## BlasterStumps

Looks like the top linked Capri model you posted is quite close to the one I have, possible even better. I simply do not have the knowledge of these hand punches to be sure. I have not found the spec sheet on the antique 4-B punch so I can't even quote you what the punching ability is with it. I'm guessing when I say a 'ton'. It worked to punch the small hole in the picture, that's basically all I can say for sure.

The punches included in the set have a small center punch pin so they will locate your hole to be punched in a center punch mark. If you take the time to ensure it is engaging that center punch mark, the hole should be accurately placed.


----------



## BlasterStumps

RWE, I forgot to mention something about using a sharp punch on some saws. I think it is some Atkins saws that I remember will crack when you try to punch it. Something to do with how they tempered the metal but I tried several times to put a small hole thru using a very sharp punch and all it did was distort the plate and the plate cracked like a rock in a windshield. I destroyed one old Atkins saw with a sharpened punch so I didn't try it again unless it was a different brand plate. Maybe I was doing it wrong???


----------



## RWE

Blaster:
Thanks for the feedback. I will order a hand punch and give it a try. All of the drill methods required at least that much money in bits and I have not been pleased with the accuracy since the bit will wander some, even if you create the perforation to ease the cut. This is the only part of saw making that is extremely frustrating to me at this point.

From what you say, I will probably fit a plate to a handle, use a drill press to make a center mark for the hole, use a hammer and punch to define the center mark a bit and then use a the Whitney type punch to make the hole.

Summerfi is a bad influence. I have about 4 of his "table saws" in progress and this is the step that has me halted. I did a dovetail saw a while back and had the devil of a time getting the holes to line up to the handle.


----------



## BlasterStumps

All I can recommend is to look close at the punching capacity/limits on the punch. Some of the newer ones are probably heavier made than the antique 4-B I have. Might mention too that sometimes they show up in hock shops, thrift stores, etc. I got this one at a local Restore for three dollar fifty. It probably won't see much use.

Wear good eye protection!


----------



## RWE

The "table saw" uses 1095 steel that is .028 thick. I also plan to do some panel saws that would require 1095 that is .032 thick.

If you were able to punch a standard Disston handsaw plate, which is normally tapered, but can be up to .042 or higher, then maybe a punch that is equivalent to your Whitney would work on the thinner plate that I am using. I will roll the dice, but probably not till after Christmas. I do a lot of research, so will see if I can find pressure ratings on those punches. I will update the site after I give it a go.

Thanks


----------



## kwigly

Found a Canadian made E C Atkins saw today, with the "Hamilton Ontario" medallion instead of the usual "Indianapolis" mark. 

















I cleaned it up a bit, didn't find an etch, but it looks like a No 53


----------



## summerfi

Nice saw kwigly. I agree it is a No. 53. Atkins saws are known for shallow etches, so no surprise the etch is gone from this one. I've cleaned up 4 Arkins recently, and none had an etch remaining.


----------



## duckmilk

The decorative carving on the handle is very pleasing kwigly. Any estimate of how old the saw is?


----------



## bandit571

Have a few "Good " saws in the shop….









A Disston D-112, an Atkins skew back, and a Richardson No.8









AAA Atkins medallion…..( No. 53?)









Richardson Brothers No. 8? Maltese Cross medallion…..









Disston D-112….7ppi croscut

Then there are these two Disstons..









Diiston D-8, 8ppi. About 1953? And the Disston No. 7…7ppi with nib.

Might be a decent set of saws?


----------



## kwigly

Duck, The Atkins saw likely dates 1920s as Atkins' Hamilton factory was only open 1913-1930 (then they merged with Shurly & Dietrich and moved to S&Ds factory in Galt, re-naming the company Shurly-Dietrich-Atkins (1930-1973)
Atkins handle decoration is "embossed" rather than carved. I'm not sure how they did this, maybe some sort of press ??
With their recessed medallion and the embossed decoration they are one of my favourites (but I have a lot of favourites  )


----------



## MrRon

This is a first time thread on this handsaw post. Saw blades are spring steel and they can lose their temper. When that happens, they are useless as a saw, OK as a collectible. How do you restore the spring temper on one that has lost it's temper. I ask this because I once tried to straighten a saw by applying heat. I heard the temper leave. The teeth became soft and would no longer hold a set. I'm guessing you can heat treat it to restore temper. Not having a small furnace, what can be done at home?


----------



## TheFridge

You poor feller.

You would have to reharden it. Tempering it would be a MFer.


----------



## DanKrager

Some self cleaning ovens get up to something like 900° during their cleaning cycle. Can't leave the racks in though, so you'd have to rig something up. And a bathtub beside the stove….just like old times!

DanK


----------



## BlasterStumps

Mr Ron, what kind of saw is it? I have cut some saw plate into small pieces for scraper blades, etc. In smaller pieces, the plate could most likely be hardened again. I've not tried it though.

Not sure what the situation was that you used heat on but think you might have done it in. If a saw plate seems 'loose' I bow it a time or two and then smith it along both sides evenly to bring the stiffness back. Not sure if that is what you were describing. If a saw is so badly bent that smithing won't take care of it, it is usually deep six time for it. I usually can save the saw nuts and possibly handle and sometimes parts of the saw plate for other uses.


----------



## Tim457

Once the temper has been taken out with heat, wouldn't you have to heat it back up past the point it loses magnetism (1400F to 1500F I don't know), quench it, and then temper it again?

Then at the point I'm sure it would warp and you'd have to hammer it flat.


----------



## MrRon

> Mr Ron, what kind of saw is it? I have cut some saw plate into small pieces for scraper blades, etc. In smaller pieces, the plate could most likely be hardened again. I ve not tried it though.
> 
> - BlasterStumps


It was a back saw. When I heated it, it made a twang sound as the temper disappeared. I tried to cut new teeth, but teeth would break off in the retoothing machine (Foley). It was a customer's saw, so I had to replace it with a new one.

It doesn't appear economical, both money wise and time wise to try to re-harden it.


----------



## DanKrager

I guess pretty with makeup isn't required to get work done. Wow! Just WOW! 1" deep x 14" long under 30 seconds. Old band saw blades for painter tips.










DanK


----------



## MrRon

Heat treating is not one of my skills.


----------



## BrentParkin

Well I finally have the time to work with the Foley Retoother I was lucky enough to find in November. I started cleaning the pile of ratchet bars up that were covered in light rust and can now organize them into a set of users. I was hoping more of the optional bars would be in the pile, but in the end, only one (the 15 PPI) bar was in there.









So I have a full set that shipped with the machine plus the one optional bar. Then I have three pairs of duplicates of some of the ones that ship with the machine. So I will be on the lookout for some of the optional ones.

I cleaned up three of the dozen carriers that he gave me and am a little confused on them. In the next picture, is this the difference between a back saw carrier and a regular hand saw carrier?









And then, what is this odd ball style carrier used for?










Finally, how do I figure out how to position the saw in the carrier so that it is in the right place to have its teeth punched???

Sorry to ask so many questions. I tried looking at some Youtube videos but they simply seem to show a retoother punching away, not how to set things up to actually use the machine.

Thanks for any help you guys can share!!!

Regards,

Brent Parkin
Regina, SK
Canada eh!


----------



## BlasterStumps

Sorry, I don't mean to deviate from the retoother talk but Wow Brent, where did you find the lumber you used to make that workbench? Looks like a huge piece there in the front. I like!
Mike


----------



## terryR

Guys, here's the scoop on temper.

When you heat steel past the magnetic temp, then quench in oil, it becomes very hard. Too hard. Brittle hard. Tempering softens the steel. Google search for a chart to show what temp and how long to acheive a particular hardness. Temps for tempering are low. 350-450 degree range.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Wished I could find a site online where I could look at an old Craftsman hand tool catalog from say around the 1920's. I would like to know more about the age of this old saw. I think it might be sort of a seldom seen tool.
I have looked at the catalogs on Blackburn site. Not there.


----------



## BrentParkin

Well Mike the top of the bench is made of two 4×12 pieces of fir. Ordered them to be custom cut and shipped to the closest Menards. They were $53 each (8 footers).

Brent


> Sorry, I don t mean to deviate from the retoother talk but Wow Brent, where did you find the lumber you used to make that workbench? Looks like a huge piece there in the front. I like!
> Mike
> 
> - BlasterStumps


----------



## summerfi

*BRENT - *


> In the next picture, is this the difference between a back saw carrier and a regular hand saw carrier?


Yes. The thicker screw heads provide an offset to account for the saw spine.


> Finally, how do I figure out how to position the saw in the carrier so that it is in the right place to have its teeth punched???


There is a little gauge for that. I have a pattern somewhere. I'll see if I can find it and post here. I made mine out of copper sheet. They are simple to make.


----------



## summerfi

Brent - Here's a link to a drawing of the gauge. I'll try to post pictures later today of my gauge in use.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzJxodHACRRuQzdmbHpoX2pTSU83aG42YXBMNEpTQQ/view


----------



## Tim457

> Guys, here's the scoop on temper.
> 
> When you heat steel past the magnetic temp, then quench in oil, it becomes very hard. Too hard. Brittle hard. Tempering softens the steel. Google search for a chart to show what temp and how long to acheive a particular hardness. Temps for tempering are low. 350-450 degree range.
> 
> - terryR


But once it's been heated too much and the temper is ruined, the only way to fix it is to heat it back past the magnetic temp then quench and temper again, do I have that right? Also some steel can be rehardened and some can't from what I understand.


----------



## terryR

Yes, to re-hardening steel if it has lost the strength. Tempering can only soften the steel further and further.

Never seen steel that couldn't be re-hardened. I'm certainly no expert, though.


----------



## putty

> Old band saw blades for painter tips.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is genius Dan!!
> 
> DanK
> 
> - Dan Krager


----------



## summerfi

This is how to use the gauge for positioning a saw in the Foley retoother. Here is the saw in the carrier with ratchet bar attached.










Here is the gauge. I made mine out of copper, but any thin metal that can be bent would work. Notice that the top edge of the gauge is on a slant. Also notice that the lines (perpendicular to the bottom edge of the gauge) and numbers represent ppi settings. For numbers between those shown, you have to visually interpolate, but that is not hard to do.










Set the gauge on top of the carrier as shown below. Let's say we want to retooth this saw to 8 ppi. The line marked 8 should be positioned at the bottom of the gullets on the existing teeth. That tells the retoother how much material to remove. It removes more for big teeth, less for small teeth. Adjust the saw in the carrier at both the toe and heel ends so the saw is parallel to the carrier and set to the appropriate depth.


----------



## Cbastiaan

Hello,

Im currently drilling out the saw nuts of my saw blade, but finding new or old second hand is difficult.

Somebody on here who can help me where I can find saw nuts, to buy?

Many thanks


----------



## summerfi

Cbastiaan, try these. https://www.amazon.com/SCREW-HAND-REPLACE-GREAT-MfrPartNo/dp/B000G33PA8


----------



## DylanC

> Hello,
> 
> Im currently drilling out the saw nuts of my saw blade, but finding new or old second hand is difficult.
> 
> Somebody on here who can help me where I can find saw nuts, to buy?
> 
> Many thanks
> 
> - Cbastiaan


I've had luck finding vintage brass sets on eBay, and you can get new ones at Blackburn Tools or TGIAG.


----------



## Cbastiaan

thank you for the replies, I wil have a look on these sites.


----------



## donwilwol

I think erikF is making boots for sale as well as his saws.


----------



## FrankonThetis

Looking for help identifying a Simonds skewback Panel Saw or ? Picked it up yesterday at a local Antique Store for $7.50. Plate is 18", teeth filed crosscut 8 ppi. Semi-legible etch and according to the 1912/1916/1923 Simonds catalogues at the WK Fine Tools site indicates American made. Etch shows number of different manufacturing sites, last being London, England but no model number legible under that line. Think it might be a No 10 1/2 but catalogue version has carving on handle. Here are a few pictures. Will clean the plate a bit and Kramer oil the handle to remove paint splotches. Thanks for any help.


----------



## summerfi

It sure looks like a 10-1/2 panel alright. It should clean up real nice. http://sawnutz.galootcentral.com/simonds/handsaws.htm


----------



## FrankonThetis

Thanks Bob, thought it could be but the 2 nuts with medallion plus the fact the wheat carving was missing made for some doubt. Figure it was made between 1920-1926. It has London England shown under the "branch houses" and their London saw works was opened in 1920. It is a nice saw, fits my hand. One of the few finds with etch showing without any cleaning work required.


----------



## summerfi

I've made a little dovetail saw. You can read about it in my blog: Making a (Very) Small Dovetail Saw.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Very nice Bob. That's a beauty. What is the handle made out of? Looks like rosewood.

Mike


----------



## summerfi

Thanks Mike. Yes, it is Brazilian rosewood.


----------



## terryR

Quite impressive as always, Bob.

I suspect I have the sister piece to that small Brazilian Rosewood handle? Just stuffed in here…


----------



## summerfi

Cool Terry. That's a great use for it.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Once upon a time I came across a small handsaw with an unusually shaped handle… I love smaller saws as a general rule, but this was was cool-plus-ten. I don't have notes as to where it came from exactly, or even how, but it's safe to say I've had it awhile.

When the tool tote project wrapped up,



the unusual little saw was the only saw right-sized to the inside of the tote. Yes, the project pics show the Summerfield Table Saw inside the tote, but I wasn't comfortable having that tool rattle around and fall victim to unnecessary damage. It found a place of honor in the Not-Wall-Hung and the Unusual Little Saw (ULS) found a home. But anyway, I digress. Back to the ULS…

It cut wood, but it took awhile as it was quite dull. And otherwise looked more like a saw dragged down a dirt road than one suited for work. But I used it for small tasks and it did quite well. And at some point I thought it needed a Holiday Trip out to Missoula, MT for sharpening and refurb. Long story made shorter, while the ULS was Out West putting on a crosscut set of teeth, it found a Missoula-based companion in the form of a Disston No. 7, also 16" in length, filled rip. They've each been suitably (and beautifully) refurbished, and will reside pridefully in the tool tote, ready for action.

No. 7 on top, ULS on the bottom.










The ULS is likely an original D112 made at 16", but sold through a hardware store with a WS medallion. The WS medal doesn't detract from the quality or coolness of the saw, though. Thanks to Bob's magic touch, they're awesome. I couldn't be more pleased to have these tools.


----------



## summerfi

Glad you like the saws Smitty. They'll have a good home with you. Below is a pic of the No. 7 before refurb. It was pretty rough. The handle and screws are from a No. 7 but the skew back blade is from something else. I don't have a before pic of the No. 112, which is the skew back version of a No. 12.


----------



## Brit

Wow! You're raising the bar again Bob. Beautiful restorations that I know Smitty will enjoy for many years to come.


----------



## bandit571

and after…









Disston D-112…


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

> Wow! You're raising the bar again Bob. Beautiful restorations that I know Smitty will enjoy for many years to come.
> 
> - Brit


You speak truth, Andy.


----------



## summerfi

Here's an R. Groves & Sons saw I just finished restoring for a client. The plate and spine had been cut down from 14" to 12-1/2" and I don't think the handle is original. Still a good saw though.

*Before*









*After*









It's been a busy Fall. Since Oct. 1 I've completed 13 full restorations, 3 partial restorations, 6 more sharpenings, and built 1 saw. I have a few client saws waiting to be restored and more heading here in the mail. I can't believe I get saw work from all over the U.S. and sometimes Canada. Who would have guessed there would be such a demand for saws. The down side is I don't get much time to work on my own projects. And after the crazy summer I had, I find myself becoming lazy. I spend more time in the recliner and less in the shop. That's not good.


----------



## Brit

Just move the recliner into the shop Bob. Problem solved.


----------



## theoldfart

^ 

I need to get my French flush cut saw out to you in the next few months. I'm winding down the shop and getting ready to pack things up so it'd be a good time to send it out.


----------



## bandit571

So…this thing followed me home today…..$8 +Tax…..









Millers Falls No.24 Greenfield, MASS…might need a bit of clean up…









What can anyone tell me about this saw set? I may need to tear it down to clean things up.


----------



## summerfi

Send away Kevin. I'll have to do some studying to figure out how it's supposed to be filed.

Bandit, I see those sets on ebay a lot, but I have no experience with them.

Andy, maybe I should move my bed out there too. I'm not sure that's going to get the work done though.


----------



## GlenintheNorth

Should be a 214, not a 24.

There are three versions. The one you have is the earliest. I don't know what the anvil is numbered for, but I know that the one after that, the black one with the folded fence thing (yours is straight, the nickel plated thing with the stamp on it) and the later grey and red one have different settings. One goes to 16, the other goes down to 4 I think. I forget which is which.

As for when they were made, I think the grey one is late 50s or early 60s and the earlier black one sometime near WWII. In any case, they're all after 1931. I have no idea when they switched between the straight fence plate and the folded one.

That's the extent of my brain dump on them.

They're made like tanks and you can't break them without real effort and probably something hydraulic. They are heavier than the Stanley 42X, by a long shot. I like mine but I kind of prefer the inline style rather than a pistol grip like these because I don't have to life a saw so far out of the vise to set the teeth. To each his own, but for $8 I would have nabbed it too even if it was just to complete my collection of them!


----------



## bandit571

Yep: there was a scratch right through the "1" in the 214. Have taken the anvil out, cleaned all the gunk off. There are a series of numbers stamped into the anvil…..0…4…6..8..10..12…these are the degree of set? rather than a tooth count?


----------



## TheFridge

Bob, get off your butt and make some saws. They don't grow on trees you know.


----------



## summerfi

Yes sir.


----------



## Brit

Yeah stop slacking Bob. You still have to complete your full set of heirloom Summerfield original saws to go in that beautiful cabinet you made. New Years resolution perhaps?


----------



## summerfi

Andy, I'm stressed that I've made no further progress on that set of heirloom saws. There's just been too much other work that had to get done. I'm hopeful that before the winter is out I'll be able to make a couple more saws. BTW, when are we going to start seeing those saws with the ebony handles?


----------



## terryR

> Who would have guessed there would be such a demand for saws. The down side is I don t get much time to work on my own projects.
> 
> - summerfi


Bob, ummm, these client saws ARE your projects. 
dude.

And the work on the Groves above is stunning. You added a screw?


----------



## summerfi

Yes, Terry, two screws are not sufficient to stabilize the handle on a saw of that size. I've never seen a Groves closed handle with just two screws, so that's one reason I think the handle is not original.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Better late than never, here's the before and after of the little 112:


----------



## terryR

Nice, Smitty. It's difficult to even see the carving on the dirty handle.

Bob, just curious, were there more holes in the original saw's plate? I noticed you copied the handle very accurately.


----------



## TheFridge

Bob is an enabler. Well technically you all are but bob hits home the most.










Some Mesquite from a young filly in Arizona.

I have a brass back from tgiag and .015 plate. Just need some saw nuts.


----------



## summerfi

Terry, are you asking about the Groves saw? Someone cut the original plate down from 14" to 12-1/2" many years ago, so there wasn't an extra set of holes. However, I could see about 1/2 of a hole left on the edge of the plate. Which handle are you talking about copying? The Groves and Smitty's saws have their original handles.

Fridge, I get my saw screws from Alamo Tool Works. He is the cheapest, and the screws are good.


----------



## TheFridge

Enablers!









Too late. Ordered nuts and 3/16" carbide bit from blackburn. Wanted to throw a little something his way for answering my saw questions.


----------



## Mosquito

Thanks for that tip Bob, I actually just ordered some materials for making a saw or two yesterday lol


----------



## onoitsmatt

How do you like that mesquite, Fridge? It's plentiful here and I really enjoy working it. It's hard but works nicely and looks good too. Hadn't thought of using it for totes but am thinking it now. Enablers indeed.


----------



## BlasterStumps

For some time now, I wanted to get a "gent's saw", as I think they are called. I'm a little cheap when it comes to buying tools and just didn't find one that I wanted for the price I wanted to spend. Then one day at the Restore, I saw this little saw plate all by itself. Upon close inspection, it appeared sharp and looked to have a hardened tooth line. It's some kind of Bosch blade that is small and thin and has upti-nine fine teeth. To me it looked like the beginnings of a gent's saw. I got home with it and started scrounging around for a handle to use with it. I had a plywood handle off of something and it looked like it would be a good fit with a little modification. After some surgery on the handle and fitting a spine to the blade, all that was left was scrounging up some saw nuts. Once I had all the pieces together, I somehow made a nice little saw out of it all. I know it looks unconventional but, for me and the mother of invention, looks aren't everything when it comes to tools. This little saw is perfect for cutting things like small dowel rod. It cuts so smooth and starts with no effort at all. It is very sharp and leaves a really thin kerf. I couldn't be happier with it for the small work. No more having the teeth of the saw pull the piece I am trying to cut back away from the block on the bench hook. That is an annoying thing to me and this little saw solves that. It will also cut into end grain with no fuss as well. It's homely but a nice addition to my workbench. I even made a little bench hook shown in the one picture just for use with this saw when cutting small stuff.


----------



## bigblockyeti

Looks like a blade from a Bosch 1640vs.


----------



## bandit571

Back saw blade from a Nest-o-saws…...had one earlier this year….made a slightly different handle for it…









Charles Neil now has this little saw. Was great for doing dovetails.


----------



## BlasterStumps

That's it. I had to cut the top 1/2" of the blade off because it was made with in a Z fashion which wouldn't let me put the spine on. It came with that same carrier shown in your picture. Heck of a nice little fine toothed blade though.


> Looks like a blade from a Bosch 1640vs.
> 
> - bigblockyeti


----------



## TheFridge

I got the itch. It must be scratched. Have Friday off. Wife's got work. Kids have daycare. Time for a shop binge. Eff yeah.


----------



## BlasterStumps

How are you rounding the edges of the handle? Looks nice.
Mike


> I got the itch. It must be scratched. Have Friday off. Wife's got work. Kids have daycare. Time for a shop binge. Eff yeah.
> 
> - TheFridge


----------



## terryR

judging from the footwear and the x-tension cord, I'd say a router.
Plus, the edges of the paper aren't all torn up like when a rasp is used.


----------



## jmartel

Fridge is making me want to finish the dovetail saw I'm almost done with. Just been sitting for a while while I work on the house.

Also, post #15,000.


----------



## Mosquito

I know the feeling jmart, though I think you're further along than me. I've got one that's been sitting for 2 years that's just a blade and spine attached lol Brass and blade have been sanded and cleaned up, just need to make the handle and attach it


----------



## jmartel

This is the last progress shot I have, from the beginning of October. Been sitting since. Handle is curly Koa .


----------



## bandit571

Gave this saw a work out, last night….









Needed to cut some Ash down to length…









Cuts straight, and fairly fast. 









Might just do as a crosscut saw….


----------



## TheFridge

> How are you rounding the edges of the handle? Looks nice.
> Mike
> 
> - BlasterStumps


A 6" corradi 1/2 round 6 cut rasp. A good semi aggressive to semi fine rasp. I could go with a finer rasp but this ones good enough to go straight to sand paper.



> judging from the footwear and the x-tension cord, I'd say a router.
> Plus, the edges of the paper aren't all torn up like when a rasp is used.
> 
> - terryR


I don't need no stinking router! But I need fashionable footwear.



> Fridge is making me want to finish the dovetail saw I m almost done with. Just been sitting for a while while I work on the house.
> 
> Also, post #15,000.
> 
> - jmartel


Do it. We shall enable. That should be the motto of this thread.


----------



## BlasterStumps

To : the Fridge: I am bowing to you sir, I have tried and could not duplicate such fine work with hand tools, ever! It gives me hope however.



> How are you rounding the edges of the handle? Looks nice.
> Mike
> 
> - BlasterStumps
> 
> A 6" corradi 1/2 round 6 cut rasp. A good semi aggressive to semi fine rasp. I could go with a finer rasp but this ones good enough to go straight to sand paper.
> 
> judging from the footwear and the x-tension cord, I'd say a router.
> Plus, the edges of the paper aren't all torn up like when a rasp is used.
> 
> - terryR
> 
> I don't need no stinking router! But I need fashionable footwear.
> 
> Fridge is making me want to finish the dovetail saw I m almost done with. Just been sitting for a while while I work on the house.
> 
> Also, post #15,000.
> 
> - jmartel
> 
> Do it. We shall enable. That should be the motto of this thread.
> 
> - TheFridge


----------



## TheFridge

Thanks bud. it's not that hard once you get the rhythm. 1 layer at a time.


----------



## TheFridge

Progress.


----------



## summerfi

Great job Fridge. Have you put the plate in the spine yet?


----------



## TheFridge

Thanks bob. I have a new appreciation for what you and other maker do now  Yeah to try it out but pulled it out to mortise for the back. Still have to get the bluing off. Also forgot to cut the slot before sanding but it'll be fine. And I won't predrill holes before chamfers and whatnot.


----------



## Tim457

That's really impressive work, Fridge.


----------



## Just_Iain

Seasons Greetings to all of you wherever you are in the world!!!


----------



## TheFridge

> Seasons Greetings to all of you wherever you are in the world!!!
> 
> - Just_Iain


Ditto.

Thanks tim. It's coming along. Had some fixable boo boos. Like loosing the vise and not holding it and watching it drop to the ground and searching through bits, chips and shavings for the piece that broke off.


----------



## summerfi

Been there, done that, Fridge.


----------



## putty

Great job Fridge!!! 
will you have an engraved medalion?


----------



## TheFridge

Thanks Put, I have easy acces to a nice laser for all parts but there is a ways to go before it happens. My buddy's machine is fairly new and he hasn't had much time but to do a little piddling with it and nothing on metal yet. So we will see.


----------



## TheFridge

So. I've had a saw file set (Grobet) for awhile now. At this point they'd just slip into the slightly used category.

I cut 18ppi teeth on an 8in plate. I've jointer the teeth at least 5 + times at this point. I've just about killed my smallest file even though it had some life left. I find one replacement in the mess of files I have. A Vallorbe #2 needle file. I can tell the difference in just an inch of teeth. Crisp gullet. Super.

Then I look up the price. 15-20$ apiece. Yeah.

I guess it's like training wheels for me being able to see the point of the gullet. I think if I just had to sharpen it I could make it happen with the original file but I've found a new appreciation for anyone who can cut new teeth from a plate with a file.

That ish is hard.


----------



## summerfi

Fridge, it's not so hard once you've practiced a bunch. It's often easier cutting new teeth on a plate than it is trying to straighten out the mess that is already there. Starting out with 18ppi is pretty daunting though. I always recommend starting to learn on about an 8 ppi. You're on the right track using the needle file on teeth that small. I've bought the Vallorbes on ebay for slightly under $10. Look around and you'll find them cheaper than $15-20. The last needle file I bought was a Corradi, and I like it as well as, or maybe better than, the Vallorbes. Next time there's a group order you should get a few. With practice you'll be able to cut and sharpen new teeth with only one jointing.


----------



## TheFridge

will Have to check them out. I think this needle file came as a bonus with a corradi order. Or it came from Red. Don't really know where the hell it came from but for teeth this small I think I have to have it. The grobets edge isn't as sharp but I think I could pull it off if the tooth count wasn't this small. A slightly rounded gullet seems to make a big difference to me with teeth this small.

The proper setup and lighting goes along way with training my eyes to spot the smallest of flats on the top of the tooth.


----------



## summerfi

I bought a box of 4"Grobet double extra slims and could not use them. The edges were too broad and flat, making the gullets too wide and shallow. I've seen other really bad reviews of Grobets lately too. I'm using a lot of 5" Nicholsons for smaller teeth. They don't last very long, but I like the shape of them, and the price is reasonable. There's no way I could file small teeth without a good overhead light and a magnifying visor. Harbor Freight is your friend for those.


----------



## BlasterStumps

A good trick to make cutting in new teeth go quicker and easier is to take a few strokes of a hacksaw at each gullet location. Just don't go quite as deep with the hacksaw as you want the final depth to be. Paul sellers had a video out on this and he shows how to modify the teeth on the front end of the hacksaw to make this process easier too. I have used his method now on the last couple saw plates that I cut teeth in and it works quite well for me. If nothing else, it saves on files.

Mike


----------



## TheFridge

Well. I shaped them up with the new file. Teeth are pretty consistent. Still have a low tooth or 3 here and there but overall I'm happy. I think on a 15ppi or lower I could excel but I think I almost bit off more than I could chew. I also see with the proper setup that a regular rip sharpening should go fairly quick and easy with a good file. Very easy to tell the difference between a good and dull file now 

I'll probably look into the Nicholson's cecause they have industrial suppliers everywhere down here so files should be easy to get.

Yeah the grobet had a noticeably rounded edge when compared to the Vallorbe. Aside from the edge it seemed like it still held up well considering I used too much pressure and had too much plate sticking up in the beginning. It seemed like it just kinda wallowed in the gullet and didn't register well.

I have an LED highbay about 3' above my head. It's borderline too bright. Mainly I used a regular desk lamp that worked great positioned properly. My eyes still work well so thankfully I don't need a magnifier. Yet 

I'll try the hacksaw trick next time. I definitely would've tried it this time around if I knew. Good to know.


----------



## TheFridge

Electrical tool converted 










Now I just need saw nuts and a carbide bit to come in.


----------



## TheFridge

Any ideas?


----------



## summerfi

Ideas about what Fridge? It's not obvious from the pic.


----------



## BlasterStumps

I suggest a step bit for sure. I used cobalt and it worked quite well but I still clamped the plate to the table.


> Electrical tool converted
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now I just need saw nuts and a carbide bit to come in.
> 
> - TheFridge


----------



## TheFridge

It's hard to see but the back won't sit straight in the plate. It leans almost all the way to the right. It looks like the die must've compressed the right side in a bit more because it bulges in while the left is almost straight.

I tried putting an edge on the right side of the plate and using it to scrape some of the bulge out the way when hammering the back on. Ive tried .015 shims a couple inches apart and using a .010 SS shim in vise grips to shave it down.

Last resort was to blunt and polish a 1"x1/4" brass bar and use it as a punch to push the left side in the same amount. Which resulted in the back opening up way too much. Tried to compress it in a vise. No bueno. Tried hammering it close. Didn't work out to well. In the scrap pile now.

Edit: I have whatever blackburn tools offers. Cobalt or carbide. I forget.


----------



## summerfi

Fridge, I've made probably 20 saws using TGIAG brass backs. On every one, the back leans to one side relative to the plate. I don't know why. It's never been a problem though. After the saw is finished you really can't tell. The only issue, and it's minor, is that the mortise for the spine isn't quite symmetrical.


----------



## Brit

*Fridge* - Great to see you persevering and not giving up. Like Bob says, after a few saws you'll be wondering what all the fuss was about. It does get easier. I also agree with Bob about the alignment of the back with the plate. It won't affect how the saw cuts and I doubt it will be noticeable once the saw is assembled. You're doing great, keep it up buddy.


----------



## TheFridge

Damn. Too late. Unfortunately it was very noticeable. I emailed them. No expectations.

Probably gonna go with slotted now 

Thanks Brit. You sassy Englishman you. I had to rewatch your sharpening video to double check steps. Thanks for that 

Edit: If I had sawnuts in that might've made a difference. Didn't consider that.


----------



## summerfi

I heard that Stanley branded saw files are not too bad. Zoro tools has them for a very good price, so I ordered a few in double extra slim taper size for small backsaw teeth. Also ordered a couple of 8" flat files and some file handles, all at really good prices.










When I opened the package I got a surprise. These double extra slim taper files are HUGE. They are about the size of a slim taper file, maybe even bigger. They are a full 3/8" at the widest point. I'm going to chuckle the next time I file a 6 ppi saw with my double extra slim taper files. I'd like to see one of their regular taper files. I'm not sure I could pick it up.


----------



## bandit571

Had to use a different kind of "Vintage " saw tonight..









Designed to use a 6" blade, have to use a 5-3/8" blade…









Beats trying to use one of my hand saws to cut 3/4" plywood….


----------



## Magnum

Some Restorations. Were in Really Bad Shape. About 1/4" of Hard Rust. Had to go done to Bare Metal.

They wouldn't Download. Yes. They were the Proper Format!

I'll try Pictures ONLY in the next Post Down.


----------



## Magnum




----------



## summerfi

I just finished up this restoration for a client. This is a Henry Disston No. 7 double eagle 14" backsaw circa 1853. The No. 7 is distinguished from the more common No. 4 by a bright, rather than blued, spine and by double nibs on the top and bottom of the apple handle. Unfortunately the original plate, while wide, was very pitted. We decided to replace it since he will be using the saw.

*Before*


















*After*


----------



## theoldfart

Yet another Summerfi masterpiece. Well done Bob.


----------



## TheFridge

I can get down with some double nibs.


----------



## terryR

Beautifully finished, Bob.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Very nice Bob. Someday I hope to learn your technique for getting the saw nuts out so cleanly. I have tried encircling them with a piece of pipe and drilling holes in a wood block and driving them into it and it seems I always miss the saw nut with whatever I am backing it up with just enough to mess things up. I guess I just don't have the eyesight or the patience. 
Mike


----------



## putty

I had to do a double take Bob,,, I thought at first it was my saw. 
Is that the original handle on that saw ? No lambs tongue?

What is the story behind that saw?


----------



## summerfi

Putty - Yes, the handle is original. The lamb's tongue was dropped just before this saw was produced. Also notice the eagles are in a different place than on your saw, and this saw has a medallion while your saw predates medallions. Your saw is the older by about 12 years, and thus the more valuable, of the two. This saw belongs to a nice fellow in Iowa who also sent me a circa 1860 Disston to restore the handle on and sharpen, a Disston and SNOS saw (mis-stamped) to sharpen and a nice Disston & Sons No. 4 to sharpen. Quite a nice group of four early Disston backsaws.

Mike - I really have no secrets for getting the screws out cleanly. After removing the nuts, I simply hang the handle over the edge of my bench and drive them out with a 1/4" dowel. If needed I'll use a nail set to get them out the rest of the way. I guess I just have good luck. Occasionally I apply some mineral spirits around the screw heads to make the wood a little less brittle. I would say I get a little splinter popping loose on maybe one in 10 screws or less. When that happens I immediately glue the splinter back down with CA glue and then you can't tell.


----------



## summerfi

I picked this little saw up on ebay. It is an 8" saw, 16 ppi. It didn't need much work to be usable. I cleaned the plate a little, reset the plate in the spine, waxed and sharpened it.










The maker's stamp simply reads WALLER LONDON. It is unclear when this saw was made. There are about a half dozen other Waller or Waller & Co. saws known. One has supposedly been dated to 1790, although there is some doubt about that. Others may have been made in the late 19th century. Perhaps there was more than one Waller, or maybe Waller was a secondary brand name used by another maker. No saw-making Wallers have been found in the British directories. Whatever it's origin, it's a decent little uncommon vintage saw in nice condition.


----------



## ErikF

Hey gents. Just built a new press for the shop and completed some tooling for making folded backs, here are a few of the first test pieces.

Pictured are .09" brass and .1" mild steel. I'm happy with the folds aside from the tightness of the brass. I'm using a hydraulic power unit so there isn't any "feel" to the amount of pressure being applied. A little more tinkering around with the setup and I should be getting consistent/desired results.

It's a two step process- the brass has to be annealed after the initial fold, steel does not.


----------



## summerfi

I like the looks of your backs, Erik. They have nice flat and parallel sides. What is the longest back you can make on your press? If you can make steel backs long enough for a miter saw, I think you would be the only person with that capability. You don't see many custom made miter saws, but that would open that door.


----------



## ErikF

Bob-

Current setup maxes out at 19". I haven't folded a back at this length and am not sure that I'll have the pressure needed to do the final flattening of a steel back this size. Brass shouldn't be too hard but I think I'd need a second cylinder to branch out to steel miter saw backs. Who knows, guess I'll have to try it out first.


----------



## Bertha

Made this DT saw with Blackburn parts in zircote. It's in my projects but there's nothing mysterious about the process. Make a handle and screw a plate to it. 16tpi rip setless.


----------



## TheFridge

I'd like to try one of those folded brass backs when you have a couple for sale Erik.


----------



## Tim457

Well done Al, looks great. I like the nicely rounded shape for the hand.


----------



## BrentParkin

I always hate asking for information on saw makers but I have hunted to the best of my abilities and come up empty. A fellow woodworker showed me a saw he has had for years and is curious to know a little about the maker. The maker stamp is Osborn Bros. Portsmouth.

It's a 28" long British saw. Split nuts and a nice nib on it. Has a London pattern handle (I think). The makers name is stamped on the plate so no etch. Here are a couple of photos. 


















Thanks for any info you guys can share.

Brent


----------



## summerfi

Brent - Simon Barley's saw book lists Osborn Brothers as cutlers and tool merchants from 1885 - 1923. I doubt they made their own saws, since saws were made in only a few locations in England, Portsmouth not being one of them. The saw appears to be a second quality, which would support that it is basically what we would now call a hardware saw. I have a very similar saw stamped Thomas White, Plymouth. He was an ironmonger (hardware dealer), also on the south coast of England.

Edit: Read the first paragraph of this article. It contains a clue about Osborn Brothers that confirms what I said above.
http://hus-saws2.wkfinetools.com/z_msReading/barley-AcidEtchingSaws/acidEtching-Simon3.asp


----------



## TheFridge

Ask away. We all like to see new stuff.


----------



## DLK

> Edit: Read the first paragraph of this article. It contains a clue about Osborn Brothers that confirms what I said above.
> http://hus-saws2.wkfinetools.com/z_msReading/barley-AcidEtchingSaws/acidEtching-Simon3.asp
> 
> - summerfi


Bob, I found the first sentence of that paragraph :

The factoring of tools by one firm for another has been a feature of manufacturing industry worldwide for centuries, but the evidence of it is hard to come by.

to be interesting. It has an uncommon use of the word factoring dating from the 1600's. The now common mathematics use of factoring apparently is first used in 1837. Is facrtoring still used in Britain to mean "acting as an agent" ? Very curious.


----------



## Brit

Looking at that saw, I'd say it was made on a Thursday afternoon around 3.30pm by Cyril Rakenfleam, saw smith and filer to the stars. Then again, I could be making that up.


----------



## Tim457

Don, I assumed it meant factoring related to factory as in producing a saw for someone else to sell.

But I looked it up and see your meaning is the correct one.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

40% of all facts and statistics used in casual conversation are made up, on the spot…


----------



## theoldfart

I 'll bet you made that up, my numbers indicate 75% fact fabrication!


----------



## Mosquito

> I'd like to try one of those folded brass backs when you have a couple for sale Erik.
> 
> - TheFridge


Sign me up for that list too  The back is the last remaining piece I'm needing for making a couple back saws. I've gotten spines from both blackburn and tgiag, but wanted to try making my own from some brass angle, but definitely don't have the equipment needed to make that happen, and probably won't be picking it up either


----------



## BrentParkin

I was hoping when Andy chimed in he might know even more about where the saw cam from. But then, Bob had good info. I'll pass on that it was just a hardware store saw. I'm sure when I clean it up for him though, it will look great. The plate is dark, but nearly no rust anywhere on it.

Thanks everyone!



> Looking at that saw, I d say it was made on a Thursday afternoon around 3.30pm by Cyril Rakenfleam, saw smith and filer to the stars. Then again, I could be making that up.
> 
> - Brit


----------



## BrentParkin

I guess we are all jumping on the saw back wagon. Add me to the list too, but I would like the steel backs and not brass.

Brent


> I'd like to try one of those folded brass backs when you have a couple for sale Erik.
> 
> - TheFridge
> 
> Sign me up for that list too
> - Mosquito


----------



## DLK

> Don, I assumed it meant factoring related to factory as in producing a saw for someone else to sell.
> 
> But I looked it up and see your meaning is the correct one.
> 
> - Tim


I don't know why but the nuances of the english language have become interesting to me.

(I too first misread factoring to mean manufacturing.)


----------



## summerfi

Don, regarding the word factoring, the Brits on backsaw.net use it a lot. It was a new word to me, and I've come to understand that it means a saw was made by a known maker but stamped with a reseller's brand, i.e. factored. It's the exact same concept as what we call hardware store saws. They also sometimes use the word branded to describe these saws.


----------



## GlenintheNorth

According to my research, this was only two days after his twin brother, Milo Rakenfleam, was moved to the mitre saw line.



> Looking at that saw, I d say it was made on a Thursday afternoon around 3.30pm by Cyril Rakenfleam, saw smith and filer to the stars. Then again, I could be making that up.
> 
> - Brit


----------



## DLK

Thanks Bob, I think what you say about factorcing agrees with the definition "acting as an agent". If I understand it correctly.


----------



## theoldfart

In finance companies sell there receivables to expedite cash flow. Its called factoring receivables.


----------



## bandit571

Might explain why my Disston IMP saw has a logo called The Farmer?

And a bit of saw porn?









D-112…


----------



## BlasterStumps

I don't know what to say. I just sat and stared at them for a long time. : (

https://www.etsy.com/listing/552589534/group-of-antique-wooden-saw-handles?ga_order=most_relevant&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_search_query=saw%20tool,%20vintage&ref=sr_gallery-2-15


----------



## summerfi

I'm working on a handsaw that has Munger's patent split-nut screws. It is a Lemuel Wheeler saw. The only other saw I've had with this type screw is my Joseph Flint. Since you don't see this type of screw too often, I thought I'd post some pictures here for others who haven't seen the Munger screw.

The Munger screw was patented Dec. 21, 1869. It differs from the typical split-nut screw in that it has crenulations or scallops on the underside of the head to keep the screw from turning. Typical split-nuts have a square boss on the shaft to accomplish this. The patent date is cast into the underside of the heads and into the show side of medallions.










Also, Munger screws are made in two parts, the shaft and the head, that are swaged together. In the right light you can see this on the surface of the head.



















Munger screws were used by Wheeler, Madden & Clemson, J. Flint, Harvey W. Peace, Richardson Brothers, Shurly Dietrich, and a few other saw makers. They became obsolete with the introduction of an improved Disston screw in 1876 and the Glover screw in 1887.

I'll post more on the Lemuel Wheeler saw once it is finished.


----------



## RPhillips

Good Stuff!

Thanks for sharing.


----------



## RPhillips

> I don t know what to say. I just sat and stared at them for a long time. : (
> 
> https://www.etsy.com/listing/552589534/group-of-antique-wooden-saw-handles?ga_order=most_relevant&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_search_query=saw%20tool,%20vintage&ref=sr_gallery-2-15
> 
> - BlasterStumps


Yeah, took me a minute to put it together… I was like "Oh, nice handles… how much? hmmm WAIT!!!! WTF? they are not mounted… are they? WTF? Oh the horror…So sad…"

This is like selling Rhino horns.. or Tusk Ivory…. They probably threw away the plates too… what a shame.


----------



## coopersdad

I found this little Disston for a few bucks at an estate sale so I couldn't resist, and now of course it's calling to me to restore it. I think it was an abandoned project, most of the teeth are filed I off, the handle is loose, and the split nuts are a bit buggered up. My best guess is 1870s, due to the split nuts. Plate is 8", there's 1 1/2" under the back at the heel, about 1 5/16" at the toe. I suppose originally the plate was about 3"?

If I can get the nuts off without wrecking them, I could fix the horn chip, refinish, file it 12 tpi or so and have a sorta dovetail or trimming little bits saw. Although it looks a little….unbalanced I guess, with the little plate and enclosed handle. I could put a new plate on so it'd be closer to what it was new, but I don't know what it would do my other bigger backsaws wouldn't do.

So what would you guys do with this saw? Besides leaverite, which I probalbly shoulda done, but what's the fun in that?


----------



## TheFridge

Clean that puppy up and put her to work. 
--------
I couldn't take it.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Coopersdad, if you break the saw nuts you ain't gonna be happy. I would leave it together and clean it the best you can. 
Mike


----------



## TheFridge

Unless you have a split nut driver that fits well I wouldn't try it without.

I am a fan of cleaning and shining stuff up so I'd take a chance. He's right though. You break one and it'll suck.


----------



## summerfi

Coopersdad - that's a nice little saw that deserves to be restored. Does it have an eagle medallion or a keystone medallion? That will help with the age. You could replace the plate, but I don't really think that is necessary. The plate has slipped further into the spine at the toe end and needs to be adjusted parallel to the spine. If you do replace it, I wouldn't go more than about 2-1/2" on the new plate. I've removed a lot of split nuts and have rarely broken one, so you should be alright there if you have a proper split-nut driver. If you do break one replacements are available. An 8" saw is usually filed 16 ppi rip, so that's what I would go with. If you run into questions as you work on the saw, we're always here to help. Or if you decide you don't want to keep the saw, I would trade you some saw work for it.


----------



## TheFridge

I need a spine. And some nuts. From Blackburn's of course. Hopefully he's not too busy.

Impatiently waiting. I might have to call in a favor if possible. Yes. That kind of favor.


----------



## coopersdad

Fridge, love the reply to the saw handles plaque thing abomination seller!

Bob, the medallion has the keystone, so according to the Disstonian website, it's 1871-75.

The split nuts will be a new adventure. The handle is really loose, so something has to be done. It appears the former owner didn't have a proper screwdriver, so the nut slots are boogered enough they'll need work to get a proper driver in them. I think I can use a small file and restore enough slot to get a driver in there (once I make one…).


----------



## summerfi

That problem with the split nuts is a common one. You can grind down a small file to make what is essentially an engraving tool just the right width to deepen the slots. Then, press down with your weight behind it when turning them off. Usually just one or two turns and they come on off easily. Disston used an odd thread on split nuts, 8-20 I believe. If it wasn't for that, you could make new nuts to eliminate the buggered up nuts.


----------



## bandit571

There is a fellow over on Woodnet…..trying to find out who made the fancy saws he was sold a few ago….fellow's name is Rick Barton…...one of the saws is a thumbhole, 1/2 back (BRASS!) backsaw…..along with several little dovetail saws…

Thought maybe Eric might know….


----------



## BlasterStumps

Bob writes: "The plate has slipped further into the spine at the toe end and needs to be adjusted parallel to the spine."

That is very possible but I wouldn't change it if it was my saw. I actually prefer that look on a saw that I won't be using in a mitre box.


----------



## BenDupre

I found that on a saw once. Thought it was on purpose. A tapered effect.





































By the way, can anyone help date this saw. I had a hard time placing the Medalion.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Ben, I would just have to guess but, I'm thinking 1890's. Maybe mid 1890's
Mike


----------



## summerfi

Ben, your saw is an 1896 - 1917 Henry Disston & Sons No. 7 backsaw. The medallion identifies the date. The double nibs on top and bottom of the apple handle identify the model number. The No. 7 had a bright steel back and is less common than the No. 4 which had a blued back.

Due to the stresses created during sawing, it is very common, in fact I would say normal, for the the plate to have slipped further into the spine at the toe, and also for it to have slipped partly out of the spine at the heel on old backsaws. This gives a canted look to the plate. True canted plates were used on some early British backsaws. I'm not aware of any American maker ever using canted plates. It is possible that a few very early American makers, like Welch & Griffiths, used some canted plates prior to about 1840 (pre-Disston) when they were getting all their plates from England. It is fairly easy to remove a plate from its spine, clean it, and then re-insert it in proper position.


----------



## summerfi

Bandit - I don't recognize those saws on Woodnet. I'm pretty sure they weren't made by Erik.


----------



## BenDupre

> Ben, your saw is an 1896 - 1917 Henry Disston & Sons No. 7 backsaw. The medallion identifies the date. The double nibs on top and bottom of the apple handle identify the model number. The No. 7 had a bright steel back and is less common than the No. 4 which had a blued back.
> 
> Due to the stresses created during sawing, it is very common, in fact I would say normal, for the the plate to have slipped further into the spine at the toe, and also for it to have slipped partly out of the spine at the heel on old backsaws. This gives a canted look to the plate. True canted plates were used on some early British backsaws. I m not aware of any American maker ever using canted plates. It is possible that a few very early American makers, like Welch & Griffiths, used some canted plates prior to about 1840 (pre-Disston) when they were getting all their plates from England. It is fairly easy to remove a plate from its spine, clean it, and then re-insert it in proper position.
> 
> - summerfi


Thanks Bob!


----------



## TedT2

Well I just completed a month long journey through this thread. I have enjoyed all 15,083 posts. It has definitely caused me to start looking for saws and not just feeding my addiction to planes….Some incredible work on this thread and beautiful saws. I am hoping to start adding to the content on here shortly….


----------



## TheFridge

We thrive on enabling


----------



## Brit

Welcome to the fold Ted and well done for ploughing through the thread to date. There are no stupid questions here, so if there is ever anything you need to know, ask away.


----------



## bandit571

Bob: According the Pedder..those DT saws were made by Youngmoses….he wasn't sure who made the tenon saw…


----------



## FoundSheep

Bandit, are there pictures on the Woodnet post of the saw? I won't know the maker, but I'm curious what they look like.


----------



## CWolf

I'm trying to repair an old Spear & Jackson 12" backsaw that I got at an estate sale. As shown in the photos, it came with three screws and one split-slot nut. Two of the screws are snapped off at the threaded portion so only a single screw and nut are usable. No medallion was used on this saw, just three identical screws.

Both the nut and the heads of the screws are tapered from a diameter of about 1/2" at the outside to about 7/16" on the inner edge. The shank is about 5/32". I've found replacement nuts and screws online from a couple of sources, but they have thicker shanks and they don't have the necessary taper on the heads.

Does anyone know where I can buy modern replacements for these? How about vintage originals? Or do I just have to drill the handle and blade out to fit the non-tapered ones that are available? Thanks.


----------



## DLK

Blackburn tools will make custom saw nuts. I think I recall that the LJ's, ErikF or summerfi may also have them for sale. (I could be wrong.) But you can make them yourself: For example here is a method you can do yourself with no more then a file, a grinder, a drill, drill press and a tap. Otherwise cannibalize other saws (that cannot otherwise be restored) or search e-bay.


----------



## summerfi

CWolf - There are three options.

1. Use vintage screws from another saw. I see these once in a while on ebay. Be aware that vintage split nuts were not a standard size. Even if you find some there is a high likelihood they will not fit your saw. Head too thin or too thick or wrong diameter. Shaft too short or wrong diameter for the holes in your plate.

2. Use new screws. These are available from Blackburn Tools, Two Guys In A Garage (TGIAG), Alamo Toolworks, or Lumberjock ErikF. You will need to either reshape the screws or reshape the holes in the handle and plate to use these. That's not an insurmountable job. Regarding the taper on the screw heads, this is pretty easy to do if you have a drill and a disc sander. Chuck the screw in a drill and apply it to the disc with both the drill and sander running. It works very well. You could do the same thing with a drill press and a file, but it is a little harder. Be aware that depending on who made them, new screw shafts can be either 5/32" or 3/16". The 3/16" will likely require you to enlarge the holes in your plate, but in the long run they are sturdier.

3. Make your own screws. The method Don referenced above is a popular one. I developed a modified method that does not show the screw end on both sides and posted it here a couple years ago if you can find it. It's a tedious process and probably not worth the effort if you're only doing one saw. All things considered, I would recommend you go with new screws.


----------



## CWolf

Thanks, this confirms that there aren't really any options other than those I already figured out. I knew these were unusual but I was really hoping they might be just common enough that there would be some specialty source to just order them from.

1. I have looked on eBay and decided I would either have to be very lucky or I would have to make many purchases before finding ones that would fit (plus they don't come up for sale often)

2. I bought new screws a few months ago from Blackburn, gambling that they would work, but as I expected they don't. I don't have a disk sander. I see how maybe it would be possible for me to taper the screws, but doing this for the nuts seems impossible with any equipment I have in my shop.

3. For the reasons you say, I'm definitely not making new ones. I've never restored a hand saw before, and the challenges with the blade and handle are plenty without taking up machining. That's why I was hoping a purchase would take care of the screw/nut problem.

And, answering Don K. about custom screws, after I determined that the screws I bought from Blackburn wouldn't fit, I emailed Isaac explaining the problem, but he never answered me. The Blackburn website was saying they were behind on orders, so I guess he didn't have time to deal with my minor issue.

So it sounds as though the only realistic path for me is the last one I mentioned, just drilling out the handle and saw plate to fit the Blackburn screws.


----------



## TheFridge

I'd find a rod coupling the same size as the threads and chuck it up in a drill. I'd use a small double cut smooth file (or whatever you have on hand)

I'd use that same rod coupling in a drill. Put a screw through the nut and Into the coupling.

If it has threads, it can be chucked up in a drill. Or something else.

Edit: I would like to know of something that would quickly oxidize brass?


----------



## bandit571

rather a long thread over there….Fairly decent looking saws…[email protected] Woodnet…on the Hand tool section


----------



## summerfi

The way I put the angle on split nuts is similar to what I think Fridge is saying. I find a machine screw with the same threads, cut the head off, and chuck it in a drill. Screw the nut on and away you go. Even if the threads don't match exactly, usually you can get the nut to "stick" on the threads well enough to finish the bevel.

I guess the fourth option, CWolf, is to send your saw to someone who has the correct tools and does this sort of work routinely. I've done a bunch, but there are others.

Fridge, there's a lot of info on the net on recipes for aging brass. Google is your friend. There are also commercial solutions you can buy for putting patina on brass. It is used a lot in the crafts industry.


----------



## TheFridge

Sweet. I like to hear it from the horses mouth. Not that you're a horse. I forget sometimes that YouTube isn't just for cat videos and World Wide Web isn't just for dirty stuff.


----------



## BrentParkin

I was happy today to complete the build of a half back saw. I have always wanted one and now that itch to have one has been scratched. It is built of salvaged bits from other saws. You can read a little more about it in the Projects section.http://lumberjocks.com/projects/358289


----------



## TheFridge

Well done.


----------



## summerfi

Brent, it's good that Henry Disston isn't still around. He'd be looking to buy you out. He liked to do that with his competition. Nice job.


----------



## BrentParkin

> Brent, it s good that Henry Disston isn t still around. He d be looking to buy you out. He liked to do that with his competition. Nice job.
> 
> - summerfi


Thanks Bob!! You should know it was your halfback that you made with the repurposed blade awhile back that inspired me to get on with making one. Need to think of an easier way to make the spine mortice if I ever do another Cresson handle. That was a @#$% pain. LOL. Anyway, thanks for the inspiration.


----------



## putty

> Need to think of an easier way to make the spine mortice if I ever do another Cresson handle. That was a @#$% pain. LOL.
> 
> - BrentParkin


could you make a jig to hold it at the correct angle then make the mortise on a router table?


----------



## BrentParkin

> Need to think of an easier way to make the spine mortice if I ever do another Cresson handle. That was a @#$% pain. LOL.
> 
> - BrentParkin
> 
> could you make a jig to hold it at the correct angle then make the mortise on a router table?
> 
> - putty


You know, that might be possible, but I usually cut the edges with a hand saw and waste the centre out with a chisel. It was the need to protect the coves that gave me fits. I'm thinking that if I don't cut the coves until after I make the basic mortice, I might have an easier time. I try to avoid my router table for anything unless I have to. I like the quiet of hand tools.


----------



## chrisstef

Bravo Brent. Thats a looker!


----------



## Brit

Nice one Brent!


----------



## Tim457

> I m thinking that if I don t cut the coves until after I make the basic mortice, I might have an easier time.
> - BrentParkin


From the armchair, that seems like the easier way to go. Experience teaches all.

Well done on that saw.


----------



## summerfi

Here's a saw you don't see every day. It's a *Lemuel Wheeler* 5 ppi rip saw. Lemuel was the son of Elisha Pearl Wheeler of Wheeler, Madden & Clemson fame. Lemuel joined WMC in 1868 at the age of 29. He worked at their Middletown, NY business until his untimely death in 1873. I presume this saw was made during that period, rather than before his joining the firm, because the etch is an identical design to one used by WMC except with different words.

*Before *(ebay pictures)


















*After*


















The saw has Murger patent split-nut screws that I posted about recently. The medallion says L. Wheeler Superior surrounding an eagle image. I think the apple handle turned out very nice for a saw nearly 150 years old.










I'm confident the plate was 28" originally, but it has been shortened to 26-1/2". The word EXTRA is stamped under the handle.










The saw has an interesting double etch.


----------



## CL810

Magical Bob!


----------



## JADobson

Here's a gent saw conversion I just finished up.


----------



## TheFridge

Nice JA and bob

I thought about a toolsteel bar with teeth like an edge float but with a profile to match just the bottom of the back. Then chisel work to open it up from the top to the where the float stopped.

Things that you go hmmm

Maybe a piece of annealed file to start with. Might give it a go.


----------



## BrentParkin

> Here s a gent saw conversion I just finished up.
> 
> 
> - JADobson


Well didn't that turn out well!! Put it to work now.


----------



## FoundSheep

@summerfi that is a gorgeous refinishing, excellent work. I especially love the old etches.

I have a general question. When you refinishing the handle, do you do any reshaping? Like add more curve to any flats, or put deeper cuts on any corners? Sometimes I'll pick up an old handle and think it might feel/look better with a little work, but I'm not sure if I have hubris over the original makers 150 years ago.

Just curious what others think.


----------



## summerfi

Will, on older saws I generally don't do any reshaping, as they don't really need it and I prefer to keep them original. On more modern saws with the clunky, squarish handles I have sometimes done reshaping. Usually those saws aren't worth the time and effort though.


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## BrentParkin

Felt really lucky to bring home a saw that didn't need any work for once. It is just a D8, but in fabulous shape. 26" 8PPI crosscut and sticky sharp. It belonged to a talented local wood worker that passed away 8 months ago and his wife was now letting his tools go. It will fit right in with my others!!! Pretty sure he made a replacement handle for it, but it is well done.


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## summerfi

Nice Brent. And a Canadian-made Disston at that.


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## BlasterStumps

I picked up an old D-8 that I am trying to clean up and put back in working condition. The handle has the top horn broken but other than that and needing a good clean, it's in fair shape. I don't know if this picture shows it well enough but pretty much the front half of the handle is oil soaked. I've tried in the past to get oil out of saw handles with pretty limited success using dawn dish soap and water and also mineral spirits but I fear this handle may take more. I have an aerosol can of brake cleaner. I'm wondering if that would work or, what might be the silver bullet so-to-speak that I should be using on the oily wood. 
Mike


----------



## summerfi

Mike, if oil is mostly on the surface, I've had good results removing it with oven cleaner. I had one saw, however, that was completely soaked in oil. In spite of my best efforts I could not remove it, even by soaking in lacquer thinner. The finish I applied peeled right off. I ended up just finishing it with several coats of paste wax, and that worked pretty well. I had another handle with less oil, and it had a crack running through it. The oil made the crack difficult to glue, but I was successful with great effort. Some people seem to feel the more oil you put on a handle the better. MY FIL is one who soaks all his tool handles in motor oil "to preserve them." When the day comes that they need repair or refinishing, it is a nightmare.


----------



## summerfi

I found this quite interesting, so I thought I'd share it here. I hope you find it interesting too.

Saw-making in 19th century England was inherently a hazardous occupation. The occupation was divided into three branches: saw-making (assembly, tooth cutting, sharpening, etc.), saw handle-making, and saw grinding. Grinding was the most hazardous of all, as it involved pressing saw plates against huge, rapidly spinning grinding wheels by hand. Not only was there risk of mechanical injury, but the mixture of silica and steel dust generated contributed to abnormally short life spans by saw grinders. I found the following excerpt on backsaw.net, but it is originally from "The Vital Statistics of Sheffield" by G Calvert Holland published in 1843.

"The saw grinders are peculiarly liable to accidents, from the breaking of stones and from becoming entangled in the machinery. This arises from two circumstances, the largeness of the stones on which they work, as well as the great length and weight of many of the articles which they grind. The larger the stones, combined with the rate of motion, and the more liable they are to break; and it is manifest that a saw, five or six feet in length, is much less under the command of the grinder than a penknife; hence greater the chance of becoming entangled in the machinery. Of the 42 deceased, since 1821, of which we have returns, five were killed by the breaking of stones; and the following are a part of the accidents which have happened to 78 living members in union.

1. Lame nine months, from the breaking of a stone.
2. Lame six months;-drawn over the stone.
3. Arm broken, from being entangled in the machinery.
4. Skull severely fractured;-was incapable of work for nine months, and the individual has broken eleven stones.
5. Drawn over the stone;-severely hurt;-in bed nine months.
6. Severely hurt-confined two months;-has broken seven stones.
7. Hand cut;-confined one month.
8. Leg entangled in the machinery;-for twelve months unable to work.
9. Arm severely lacerated;-lame three months.
10. Lamed, from the stone breaking;-ill three months.
11. Hand lacerated;-incapacitated from work.
12. Hand lacerated;-lame two months.
13 Leg broken, and now a cripple.

In this branch, there are only four affected with the disease peculiar to grinders, and these cases are more likely to have arisen from exposure to wet and cold, than from the inhalation."


----------



## Johnny7

*Mike, Bob*

During my time as an apprentice gunsmith, I learned that whiting (calcium carbonate maybe?) is the best way to draw oil from wood (think oily barrels and wooden stocks)

A poultice of whiting and acetone is applied to the wood and allowed to do its thing.

Gun supply houses like Brownell's sell it.


----------



## summerfi

Johnny, that's good info. Thank you.


----------



## bandit571

Have used tons of whiting…as a filler in rubber compounding. It is Limestome, ground until it is the same as flour.

A Quarry over in Piqua,OH used to ship it by the truck load to where I worked.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Thank you guys for the information on cleaning the handle. I'll see what I can come up with.

Bob the article on saw making in 19th century England was quite interesting. So sorry to see that so many workers were injured or killed. About on par for industry in those days I can imagine. Thanks for posting it. 
Mike


----------



## TheFridge

Time for work










And drawfiling with a new file is very pleasurable.


----------



## TheFridge

After messing around with an old file while trying to make a mortise float I tried an earlier idea.

The scrap end of the back. Teeth are offset to get into the bevels. 









I'd say it was definitely a success and easier than you might think. This is after initial. Final depth, which is 1/32 lower, cleared up the boogering when cutting out waste on the bottom left bevel. I just aimed to undercut it a hair until the final tweak. It really worked well. I really really wish I would've tried it like this sometime ago. I could've saved myself a lot of time.










I've had to repair the bottom of the mortise once because I suck and second because the slotted back isn't as deep as the folded back. And a zona razorsaw with the set stones off, is perfect for .015 slot.


----------



## summerfi

That's a novel idea Fridge. I've never seen anyone do that before. I cut two mortises just this morning. I use a saw, chisels, and dykem.


----------



## RPhillips

Good idea Fridge. That was the hardest thing for me to get right on my handles.


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## BlasterStumps

Probably the wrong way to do it but, first I mark both sides with marking gauge (knife), then I drill in from the front of the handle just to depth I want the spine to sit with whatever size bit matches the width of the spine. Then I clean it out with a couple chisels. Not super pretty but it is quick and looks okay to me. 
Mike


----------



## TheFridge

Did the same for the waste blaster. 1/8" chisel was still too wide. Having issues getting it right with rifflers.

Still surprised how well it worked.

Learned a bunch. Like, don't change the design on the fly. That was the biggest. If I cut the chamfers per the drawing almost everything would've worked out. And don't cut nib thingies that are too shallow of an angle for you chisels.

Now I want to build an identical xcut. And a buddy wants a rip dovetail as well and probably a carcass. My confidence is pretty high despite mistakes.


----------



## coopersdad

A few weeks ago I posted an 1870's era Disston dovetail saw I got at an estate sale, and I finally got around to working on it. Here's how it started.


















I made a split nut driver from a old screwdriver. I had to file the nut slots a bit deeper to get the driver to bite, but when it did the nuts came out easily. Whew. I used a screw slot file to deepen and even out the slots.

Someone had filed all the teeth off the saw, so I retoothed at 14 tpi, filed rip. I experimented with progressive rake, filing the first inch 15 degrees, the next inch 10, and the remainder 5 degrees. It does make it easier and less "grabby" to start.

The handle had a lot of "character" with some deep scratches and staining. Both horns had chips, so I added some wood to fix those. I decided I liked the character, and only scraped the handle enough to remove the old flaking finish, and filed and sanded just to blend the wood repairs. The split nuts didn't sit level with the wood, and I would've had to file a lot of wood off to get them flush, so I filed enough to smooth the threaded post, which protruded some when tightened. I darkened the shiny brass to match the medallion. The back had originally been blued, judging from the bit protected by the handle, so I used some cold blue on it.

The plate had slipped up into the back, and my plan was to remove it to clean, but 140 or so years of gunk had other ideas. Even after an overnight soak, I had to tap hard (ie wail on it) just to get the back up a bit so there was no longer a tapered plate. I figured I'd wreck something if I continued so I left it as is.

I kinda like my old tools looking old - it doesn't look like some of the gorgeous inspirational work I've seen here, but I like it and it cuts well! I'm a beginner saw filer at best, so that was good!


----------



## summerfi

Very nice job, Coopersdad. It's a respectable looking saw that looks like it's ready to do some honest work. Interesting that the handle has double nibs top and bottom. Those are usually found on No. 7's, which had shiny backs. It shows that there were exceptions to every rule.


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## TheFridge

Nicely done CD.

One last saw nut on the way and I need some etching.


----------



## summerfi

Fridge, if you lived 200 years ago you could get a job as a saw handle maker. Nicely done.


----------



## coopersdad

Fridge, that little saw is looking great!

Bob, I had read that about the 77 backs as well. Considering that, plus the nuts being loose and munged, and the teeth all filed off, I wonder if this had perhaps been an ongoing project put together from different saws. Never know what someone did over the years I suppose. From the estate sale, I also got a Disston 112, but the handle has no carving, so that is likely a replacement, unless there's a model I don't know about.


----------



## TheFridge

Thanks guys. Hell. I think that was the easy part honestly.

Very happy with how it cuts and handles. Might need to stone both sides a hair more but it cuts like a champ.


----------



## onoitsmatt

+1 I really like that saw, Fridge. Very nicely done !


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## TheFridge

Thanks bud. I wouldn't put it on par with a summerfield but it's a solid B. I am more than happy.


----------



## putty

Great job Fridge, what kind of wood is the handle?


----------



## chrisstef

Alder. Obviously.


----------



## TheFridge

Thanks putty. Hahaha stef. I didn't have time to anneal the alder before working so I used some mesquite. Awesome to work with.


----------



## Slyy

Best to anneal the alder to a nice cherry red first, it work hardens so you've got to be careful. Even with the inferior mesquite, it looks pretty good.


----------



## Brit

Great job on the saw Fridge. Looks hoss!


----------



## RPhillips

Nice job Fridge.

I must be doing something wrong, when ever I anneal Alder, it goes from cherry red to charcoal black.. and becomes too brittle to work with… please advise.


----------



## tshiker

Great job Cooperdad! To me, that's just the right amount of "clean". Fridge, what can l say, fantastic!


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## TheFridge

Thanks guys. I must say. Building the saw has been easy compared to designing a logo to etch not to speak of the etching process itself. I am computer stupid.


----------



## revrok

Saw looks fantastic, how does it cut? Those kerfs look pretty straight!



> Nicely done CD.
> 
> One last saw nut on the way and I need some etching.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - TheFridge


----------



## TheFridge

Thanks Tim, it cuts fast for fine teeth. Still probably needs a little stoning but I'm happy happy.


----------



## TheFridge

got enough parts to finish this saw and do 2 more.

Tried some etching wit the proper materials. Also tried some bluing. Think I'm ready to roll. Just have to take my time. Something funny is going on with Inkscape and my name isn't showing up in the ribbon. Hopefully I don't mess it up.


----------



## TheFridge

1 down.


----------



## Brit

Very nice mate. Just think in 100 years time when someone buys that saw on ebay, woodworkers will be debating for hours about who you were and how rare that saw is.


----------



## bigblockyeti

Ultrasound pictures, congratulations!!! Boy or girl?


----------



## thechipcarver

I have always liked old tools. Just thinking of what they help build and who used them.


----------



## terryR

Awesome, Fridge. I have so many questions.


----------



## BenDupre

^flagged^


----------



## TheFridge

^ ha! 
Thanks guys 
I'll help however I can Terry. 
If this saw (or the other 2 I plan on building) are on eBay in 100 years I'm going to haunt my grandchildren


----------



## RWE

Fridge:

I just downloaded Inkscape. Can you explain briefly the process from going from your drawing printout to getting the etch transfered to the saw plate. I have about 4 "Summerfi style" table saws in process that I want to etch. If there is a YouTube or URL that explains your process just link that.


----------



## TheFridge

http://lumberjocks.com/bobasaurus/blog/64074

where I got most of my info. Thanks boba!

I'm posting the saw as a project tonight or tomorrow and will put everything I learned in that. There really is no brief synopsis of the process because it was very intensive by trial and error. But if you follow bobs instructions you can do it. I'm just gonna go into a bit more detail because I tried more of the ways not to do it. I'll send you a link to the project whenever I get it up.


----------



## RWE

thanks for the link


----------



## BrentParkin

I met a Lumberjock!!

Out here on the Canadian Prairies like minded woodworkers can be many hundreds of kilometres apart so meeting other woodworkers can be hard even when you live in one of the big cities (Big for me being 190,000 people). But an interest in hand tools and saws in particular led James Dobson (JADobson on Lumberjocks) and I to cross paths. Best of all we live only 250km apart.

Last December we started talking about a trade of some lumber (4×12 No.1 Fir timbers) for a saw vise that James was not using. James didn't have a passport so could not pop over the border into the U.S. to buy timber at a reasonable price so eventually it boiled down to me driving 4 hours each way to Minot, ND and then another 2.5 hours each way to deliver the big timber to him. So in the end he got some much needed heavy stuff for a new bench and I brought this wonderful vise home that only needs a little fiddling to put back into 100% working shape.

It's amazing what you can work out in a barter. Each of us got something we needed and I got to meet a really nice young man just beginning his life long journey into woodworking.

Now as for the saw content, I'm still smiling that this will now be a fixture on my saw workbench!!









Brent Parkin
Regina, SK
Canada eh!


----------



## tshiker

I don't know what I'm more jealous about, the vise or the fact you have a saw work bench!! Always great when you get to meet up with other Lumberjocks! Oh I almost forgot, You Suck!!


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Sweet Mother, that saw vise is massive! You definitely went above and beyond w/ travel, but the barter treated each of you well I'd say. Congrats, Brent.


----------



## JADobson

Looks good on your bench Brent. Glad to see that it has found a home where it will see some use.


----------



## JayT

Vise! Want!

Wish I had room for such a lovely, massive beast. The barter system is alive and well.


----------



## donwilwol

that'd definitely the holy grail of saw vises. Excellent recovery mission.


----------



## summerfi

You lucky dog, Brent. What a wonderful acquisition.


----------



## BrentParkin

> Looks good on your bench Brent. Glad to see that it has found a home where it will see some use.
> 
> - JADobson


Well thank you so much James!! Now lets see that new bench come to life!


----------



## BrentParkin

> Sweet Mother, that saw vise is massive! You definitely went above and beyond w/ travel, but the barter treated each of you well I d say. Congrats, Brent.
> 
> - Smitty_Cabinetshop


It was a bit of driving Smitty, but I ordered myself a bunch of No.1 4×6 fir from Menards at the same time. Wanted some heavy stuff to build a bench just for working on saws. Can't have all that metal dust on the bench where I build stuff.


----------



## BillWhite

Fridge, the saw is a real winner. I'd like to see more info on the etching process.
Bill


----------



## ErikF

Hey gents,

I've had some time to work with the folded backs and am now happy with the shape and consistency. I was reading through some of the recent posts and saw some discussion about back shape causing the plate to lean in one direction. I ran into this issue when pressing slotted backs and the first couple folded backs. Seemed the face of the back on the bottom die would stay flat causing the gap to form off center. Remedy was to rework the die angles to account for the offset and make the backs almost flat.

Once I'm caught up on saw orders I'll have some extra backs up for grabs.

Here are some of the folded backs and a good looking piece of East Indian satinwood.


----------



## CL810

WOW!


----------



## TheFridge

Suhweet vise

Thanks bill, I got most of the how to from this blog by fellow LJ Bobasaurus

http://lumberjocks.com/bobasaurus/blog/64074

Trying a jig. Discovered my vise had 2- 1/4-20 holes on the back perpendicular to the jaws. Threaded some 1/4" round stock to put in there.










Works excellently so far.

Hell yeah eric. And Sign me up for a couple backs.


----------



## MrWolfe

Pretty new here, 
After my first major project using power tools and googles, earmuffs and respirators, I am getting into hand tools. First it was planes but now I did just get an old backsaw and saw set. Its a Geo H. Bishop adjustable back saw/tenon saw. You can change the height of the "back" which is really a split bar with a bolt that lets you set a depth stop for dados and tenons, especially great for use with a router plane. I had never seen one before. Going to restore it and try my hand at sharpening. I think it is a great hand tool for the bench I've just finished.










It has a small chip missing on the tip of the "horn/handle" but it is not crucial for using the saw and it is going to be a "user". 
Any suggestions on how to brighten or clean the plate? No rust or pitting so I am not even sure I need to do anything to it.


----------



## Tim457

Welcome Wolfe, that's a cool saw, makes me want to make a stop like that for one of my tenon saws.

There are a lot of ways to clean saw plates, sandpaper with a sanding block and going particularly carefully over the etch is effective. Bob (summerfi), one of our resident saw experts recently posted about some products he uses that do a better job than sandpaper. Depends on if it's worth it to you to shell out some cash.


----------



## summerfi

Nice saw MrWolfe. It looks to be in great condition. If the blade isn't rusty you really don't need to do anything to it unless you just want it to look shinier. I would buff it with fine steel wool and WD40 and call it good. If you do want to improve the shine, it should be a quick job with 400 and then 600 grit sandpaper. After you finish be sure to apply a coat of paste wax to prevent future rust.


----------



## MrWolfe

Thanks Tim and Bob,
I appreciate the advice and kind words.
I will buff it with steel wool and wd40 for now and use it with the intention of brightening up in the future with sandpaper when needed. Great thread here.
Wolfe


----------



## BlasterStumps

My latest saw project:


















Two depth settings, 1" and 1-1/2" or thereabouts.


----------



## BlasterStumps

For the stair saw above, I'm making a second blade for shallower cuts that I can readily adjust the depth of cut. Not sure if I will modify the blade I have for it now or just make a new one. It needs to be adjustable though. Learning all the time : )
Mike


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Blaster, very nice.

Bishop's Patent saws are serious performers when it comes to sawing walls of dados to depth.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Thanks Smitty. I now have another blade made that will set to 1/4" depth of cut up to about 3/4". That should be good for most housing joints. I'm keeping the other blade. Just might be a use for it. 
Mike


> Blaster, very nice.
> 
> Bishop s Patent saws are serious performers when it comes to sawing walls of dados to depth.
> 
> - Smitty_Cabinetshop


----------



## coopersdad

I mistakenly posted this in the Mr. Fridge suggested I put it here.

Anyone run into a saw plate that was hardened too much to sharpen? I decided to sharpen my Langdon Mitre/Disston miter box saw. The new Bahco mill file I use for jointing would skate and hardly cut, and when I looked at the file, I was dulling it badly - visible shiny streaks and I could see tooth damage. A dozen passes on the plate and there's barely a flat spot. The area about a third of the way back from the toe is hardly touched, and I can feel the difference there in filing, it really skates over it. I tried another file I know cuts well, same thing.

This saw appeared to have been used little if any, with only rust from sitting around. I suppose I can joint with a diamond sharpening stone and file with a diamond three corner file. What would someone have done before that stuff was available?


----------



## BlasterStumps

"Anyone run into a saw plate that was hardened too much to sharpen?"

Coopersdad, yes sir. Bought a used Disston D-8 the other day from a lady clearing out some of her deceased husband's woodworking tools. Got it home, cleaned it a little to take off some paint and what looked like varnish in spots. Put in my saw vise and found the file that I needed. Tried to sharpen it but couldn't do more than send the dog running out of the garage with it's paws over it's ears. First saw plate I have seen like that. My file wouldn't even begin to cut. I'm going to buy another file and give it another try but I doubt that I will see any difference.

I've actually been thinking of sending some of my saws to a well-known, well-liked, upstanding saw man in Montana. I might have to include this D-8 to see whether it's actually me, the file, or the saw plate. : )
Mike


----------



## summerfi

I've run into saws with patches of teeth that had become case hardened, but not the whole saw. Here's an idea - Remove the handle from the saw and try to file the edge underneath where the handle goes. If this is also hard, then the plate is probably consistently hard throughout and may be useless. If the steel under the handle seems fine, then it may just be that the toothline has become hardened. In that case, using the diamond files may break through the case hardening, or you could use an angle grinder to remove the teeth and file new ones. In addition to making it difficult to file, the other problem with hard teeth is they are susceptible to breaking during setting.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Thanks for the ideas on what to try on the saw plate Bob. I noticed the bottoms of the gullets are sort of rounded instead of a "V" like you would get from a 3-corned file. When I saw that, I was wondering then if they had been machine sharpened. I wonder if that could have caused the teeth to be harder than usual. Anyway, thanks again and I will try the test under the handle that you mentioned. 
Mike


----------



## bigblockyeti

> I ve run into saws with patches of teeth that had become case hardened, but not the whole saw. Here s an idea - Remove the handle from the saw and try to file the edge underneath where the handle goes. If this is also hard, then the plate is probably consistently hard throughout and may be useless. If the steel under the handle seems fine, then it may just be that the toothline has become hardened. In that case, using the diamond files may break through the case hardening, or you could use an angle grinder to remove the teeth and file new ones. In addition to making it difficult to file, the other problem with hard teeth is they are susceptible to breaking during setting.
> 
> - summerfi


That seems it would be a good problem to have provided the plate performed acceptably once the teeth were sharp, is there an economical way to grind the teeth vs. filing them or is this an untapped market? I know how it's done with band mill teeth but I can see where the tooth profile would be difficult to maintain without an automatic grinder setup specifically to do so.


----------



## summerfi

I've never seen a handsaw sharpened by a grinder, and I think it would be difficult to do. You would need a fine wheel with a relatively sharp edge to get into the gullets properly. Being so fine, unless it was a diamond wheel, it would wear quickly. You'd have to keep switching wheels to avoid getting round gullets. Then there would be the problem of how to grind fleam on a crosscut saw. Not impossible, but much more complicated. Using files is just a simpler process that works well and has been proven for hundreds of years.


----------



## coopersdad

Thanks for the tip Bob. Mike, I'm glad I'm not alone! I checked under the handle, and the steel is just as hard there. I think this is a warning to be very wary of 100+ year-old tools that appear to have had little use - it may be a hidden gem, but there may have been a reason it was set aside. This was the saw with a Langdon miter box I posted about a while ago that I had lots of issues with cutting square. Think it's time to cut my losses on this one.


----------



## bandit571

Last year, during the World's Longest Yard Sale….picked a handsaw









Was something about it….









Maybe IF I replaced that strange fastener…









But, I don't really know who used that pattern of bolts. Warranted Superior medallion, 5-1/2 ppi (according to the stamp) and WAS a skew back at one time. Owner had to shorten the plate, for some reason.

Maybe call this a Toolbox Rip Saw? 









Plate is 17-3/4" long….handle is NOT a covertop.


----------



## woodcox

Starting a marples stainless tenon saw. 









Steel back needed some work back to straight? At the toe under the back a small row of teeth have been cut. A dimple and a slight bend in the plate need attention. The rust ring shows how deep the plate was set. Was this adequate or should it be deeper in the fold?









The wear is amazing.


----------



## summerfi

WC, I like to set the plate about half way into the spine, or 3/8" on a 3/4" spine. It doesn't have to be exact.

That's interesting about teeth being cut on the top edge of the plate. There must have been a change of plans when the saw was being made. That handle looks pretty rough. Are you going to make a new one?


----------



## woodcox

Yes, but I haven't much on hand other than clear plain wood.

Thanks for the info. I suppose it was good, surprisingly difficult to get the back to let go.


----------



## Tim457

Blaster the diamond triangular file may work because the steel that is too hard might be very thin case hardening. Try one gullet with the diamond file and if you get through a little bit then the regular file works again then that may work. Otherwise the angle grinder is your best bet I agree since the hard teeth on edge like that will tear the diamonds out of their binder metal and cause the file to wear out faster.


----------



## TheFridge

Plate and back ready for etching. Just gotta smooth some things.










Request for wax only. I'm down.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Tim, Thanks for the suggestion. I don't have a diamond file but might just go to town and see if I can find such. If not maybe order online. If I could do a decent sharpening on that saw plate, it will be a really nice tool to have on hand. It is 5 1/2 PPI rip. I can see well enough to work on big teeth like that. : )
Mike


----------



## Tim457

Mike if you don't have a diamond file, don't buy one. Try a dremel or whatever you do have abrasive wise on one tooth to see if you can get through the case hardening. If you can't, it's not worth buying something because it would take some extensive work to properly retemper the whole plate.

That's hot Fridge.


----------



## DLK

Once upon a time and longtime ago it was I bought a diamond file set from Harbour freight that looked like this one on Amazon. They have worked fine for me on small jobs and was not a huge investment only $10, Unfortunately HF does not show them in their online pages. I can't find a cheap set at any of the Big Box stores. Woodcraft has some nice but not cheap diamond files. Perhaps you could find a jeweler who would let you try one of their files to see if it will work, befor buying something expensive that is not going to help you.


----------



## summerfi

I've finally gotten around to making another pair of saws for my two heirloom sets. You can read about it here.


----------



## RWE

Beautiful work Bob. I too have had things that have kept me out to the shop for several months. One thing that had been tossed around here previously was the use a Porter Cable "Restorer" to help clean and polish old saw plates. I got one for Christmas and I have used it successfully to put an even "sheen" or "scratch pattern" on a D-8 that I had been working on. I used a Scotchbrite pad that came with mine (had sandpaper, Scotchbrite etc. in a kit).

I had already gotten the rust off, so I will wait until I get a good "rusty" saw to test and will comment further.


----------



## summerfi

Roger, I've been wondering how you like that new tool. Show us pictures of the results, and maybe a more extensive review, when you get the time.


----------



## summerfi

I thought this was a neat old picture. Despite the name, this was in Ireland. Note the saws hanging in the window and one out front.


----------



## TheFridge

Yeah bob. How are we supposed to follow that?

I was serious. Adopt me anytime.


----------



## bandit571

Hmmm, a holster, for a saw?









has a belt clip..









16" or so long, one end has a wooden plug….









Maybe drill for a legstrap?









Fastest saw in the west?


----------



## DLK

Was that really for a saw? Or was it a quiver for arrows?


----------



## TheFridge

I did everything I could to make this one immaculate. Took some work. Need to finish work on the the images for the nuts and the back for lasering. Discovered that scraping the tote after rasping works like a champ and cuts sanding down drastically.

Need some counterbores.


----------



## summerfi

Looks great Fridge.


----------



## JohnDi

Looking for info on a back saw Maker I found at an estate sale.
Plate is etched Wilkinson cast steel New York.
Don't think it's that old as it has 3 slotted domed brass nuts.
No maker stamped on back.
Thinking maybe a hardware store brand made by someone else?


----------



## DLK

PIctures?


----------



## terryR

Beautifully done, Fridge.


----------



## JohnDi

Sorry, with the demise of photobucket, not sure how to post pics anymore 
Tried Flickr can't get it to work on my iPad.


----------



## TheFridge

Thanks guys. Going the extra mile took twice as much time but was worth it.

JohnDi, use the img button to post pics. It's almost self explanatory. Just make sure all pics from a mobile phone are taken in landscape mode.


----------



## summerfi

JohnDi, click the "img" button just above the box below where you post a message. Two other buttons will then pop up. First click the "Browse" button and select a picture filed on your computer. Then click the "Insert this image" button to put it in your post. When you click the "Post this reply" button, your image will show up in your post.

Edit: Fridge beat me to it.


----------



## JohnDi




----------



## CFrye

When did Atkins stop producing saw totes with a lamb's tongue?


----------



## BlasterStumps

Tried one more small saw handle. The only piece of wood I had that was at least 7/8" thick was some decking material. I wouldn't have spent the time on this old saw plate except it is a very thin plate and there is almost no set to the teeth. I have been looking for a thin saw to use for cutting blade slots, etc. I touched up the teeth best I could and really like the way it is cutting now. Even though it is more like a tenon saw or sash saw now, it might even do well cutting dovetails because of the thin kerf. I'm a bit lazy, I didn't even polish up the saw nuts : (


----------



## bandit571

In use today…









Disston D-112…7ppi skew back..









Nice and fast, and straight cuts..once the operator wakes up..


----------



## DylanC

Back in December, BlasterStumps mentioned he tried using an old Whitney punch for placing the holes in a saw plate.


> Seeing the other saw plate with all the extra mounting holes in it brings me to ask a question on punching holes. I have an antique but little used Whitney 4-B hole punch. Quite similar to the newer No. 5 punches. I m wondering if this 4-B will punch saw plate? I don t want to ruin a punch attempting something I should not be trying so I want to see if anyone else uses a punch on saw plate? I m hoping if will be strong enough because I really dislike drilling saw plate even with a cobalt step bit.
> 
> - BlasterStumps


Strange coincidence, but I recently ran across a write up in the November issue of Popular Mechanics for the new version of that antique tool…










https://www.roperwhitney.com/our-products/no-5-jr-hand-punch-in-kit/

$83 for a full kit with case. $63 for the punch alone with a 3/16" punch/die. I've never used one, but the folks at PM were impressed.


----------



## DanKrager

I have one of those Dylan, and it's surprising what it will punch. Never tried it on saw plate though…It's reach is limited.

DanK


----------



## TheFridge

I'd imagine the dies are well hardened.

We had a big we used to punch up the 5/8"? Steel beams. 1/2" definitely. Really loud when it gives.

Edit: I might worry about the point of the die distorting the plate.


----------



## DanKrager

The punch I have, the punches seem to be ground flat. If they were ground at a slight angle, I'm thinking they would still punch cleanly and not take so much force to make it happen. 
DanK


----------



## Mosquito

A buddy used to use Greenlee knockout punches for making holes in cases for fans… 4-5/8" knock out punch


----------



## TheFridge

They'll punch mild steel and stainless fairly easily. Expensive.


----------



## DLK

This was my dear friend and coauthors father's saw. They lived in North Dakota, but it traveled with my friend to Seattle, to Regina, Saskatchewan and then to Newcastle, NSW Australia. He gave it to me in Newcastle a year ago. I have smoothed the plate, removed any rust, polished the brass saw bolts and medallion, and fixed the couple chips in the plywood handle. Then gave the handle a coat of couple of coats of boiled linseed oil and 3 or 4 coats of tru-oil. Yesterday I got around to sharpening it as a rip saw 8tpi. Here is how it looks now:










It has an interesting Medalian (Shurley & Dietrich, Galt Ont. Can.) :










Gave it a test run:


















8 short strokes for 2 inches in 3/4 pine and no drift. I think it's a keeper.

Edit: I thought about it and was not happy with the 8 strokes. So I oiled the saw with jojoba and now it takes 6 strokes for 2 inches.


----------



## kwigly

Don, Shurly & Dietrich made good saws, and it looks like you've got yours looking and working well. It looks like a model 1900, dating 1920s/1930s. Shurly & Dietrich became Shurly-Dietrich-Atkins in the 1930s. Galt disappeared into the city of Cambridge, but part of the old saw works buildings still exist and are now an anteek multi-vender mall


----------



## BlasterStumps

Nice saw Don. Looks good.
Mike


----------



## DLK

> Don, Shurly & Dietrich made good saws, and it looks like you ve got yours looking and working well. It looks like a model 1900, dating 1920s/1930s. Shurly & Dietrich became Shurly-Dietrich-Atkins in the 1930s. Galt disappeared into the city of Cambridge, but part of the old saw works buildings still exist and are now an anteek multi-vender mall
> 
> - kwigly


Thanks I passed this on to the son who also will send it to his sister.


----------



## GrantA

I have a lot of reading to do on this thread, just picked up a few old saws, one of which is a Disston rip saw, 3tpi by my measure, and looking at the disston institute medallion reference is from 1865-1871. She's in rough Shake though, I would be too at that age. Cleaning, sharpening and a new handle are in order


----------



## bandit571

Just hanging around, waiting on the next job..









No room in the til….I did put the little one to work, today..


----------



## bearkatwood

Greeting and salutations all  I haven't popped in this forum for a long while. I thought I would step in and see what's cookin' Plus I had a question to pose. I just bought a BeMaCo fast setter and wondered if anyone had ever heard of a manual for it. 









I suppose while I am here I should show you a quick look at a few saws I have done recently.


















I have been having fun, swamped in saw orders. The furniture gig has shut down for the most part and I am just in saw land for the time being. Have a happy day everyone and if anyone hears of a manual for that sucker please let me know. Thanks.


----------



## BrentParkin

> Greeting and salutations all  I haven t popped in this forum for a long while. I thought I would step in and see what s cookin Plus I had a question to pose. I just bought a BeMaCo fast setter and wondered if anyone had ever heard of a manual for it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't this the machine Erik uses? He may have some info to offer.


----------



## BrentParkin

> Back in December, BlasterStumps mentioned he tried using an old Whitney punch for placing the holes in a saw plate.


I go back and forth on using one of these punches sometimes and sometimes drilling the holes with a solid carbide spade bit. But I saw this in Grizzly's catalog and might buy one.










Same type of punch as the Whitney style, but the bench mount would be nice!

Brent Parkin
Regina, SK
Canada eh!


----------



## kwigly

For saw plate, I find the larger size Whitney (or Roper-Whitney) punches work easier with much less effort than using the little plier size punches


----------



## summerfi

Nice looking saws Brian. Yes, ErikF uses the BeAmCo, so he may be able to help you out.

The problem I see with the punches is getting the holes exactly aligned. Maybe I just don't know how. With the carbide bits, I drill the plate through the holes already in the handle, so the holes have to be aligned.


----------



## bigblockyeti

Could you use a transfer punch to center point the exact location of the hole while the plate is in the handle then remove it to through punch it?


----------



## bearkatwood

I use a 3/16 center punch to mark out my holes before they are drilled and since the punch has the same centering it should work well. I used to drill the holes in place with the handle on, but it got too much debris inside the kerf and marred the plate when I would fit it so I started with the punch and it seems to work good. I have thought about getting one fraction size smaller and placing it so the center is just a bit away from the tote to try and suck the plate in nice and snug so just one bolt would give you no wiggle. Haven't tried it yet. 
Thanks Bob, hopefully he has a lead on one or someone can photocopy something off for me.


----------



## Tim457

That grizzly punch and the heavy duty handheld only include odd sizes (5/32, 7/32, etc) but the portable hand punch has the even sizes. I wonder why.


----------



## BenDupre

> That grizzly punch and the heavy duty handheld only include odd sizes (5/32, 7/32, etc) but the portable hand punch has the even sizes. I wonder why.
> 
> - Tim


Because of the fastener that passes through the hole 1/8 - 5/32, 3/16 - 7/32, etc…


----------



## Just_Iain

Way out in left field but just a very old example of a split nut where you would not expect it:
https://pegsandtails.wordpress.com/2018/03/07/additional-examples-of-maritime-case-furniture-redux/

Enjoy,
Iain


----------



## BlasterStumps

I broke the punch I was using on my last saw project. I think from now on, I am going to keep the thing down on a table top before squeezing the handles. There is nothing left on the top of that size punch to keep it in the tool once it breaks through the saw plate. I don't know if it would come zinging out of the tool like a bullet but don't want to find out either. Might be a good idea to wrap a heavy cloth around the tool before punching plate also. A piece of the top of the punch was laying on my bench after I punched those holes. It could have come out with quite a force and bounced off my tool cabinet. Again, don't want to get hit by a piece of shrapnel from the tool. I haven't tried punching plate since so don't know what it will do now. Sorry guys, probably dumb idea on my part to use the hand punch for plate. 
Mike


----------



## summerfi

That's how you learn, Mike. The punch seems to work well for some people. The carbide spade bit works best for me. Drilling holes in the plate and installing the screws are the last steps in the saw making process for me. I never remove the handle from the plate afterwards. At that point the saw is done.


----------



## bearkatwood

Talk about flying out of the machine and hitting you. I was standing next to my foley toother while it was running yesterday. I was toothing some dovetail plates and I usually stand close by the machine so I can swap things out. A shard came popping out and imbedded in my arm pretty deep. It was like a tiny bullet, I was really surprised.
I have thought about a good use for split nuts besides saws, hinges never crossed my mind, interesting take.
I have had such good luck with the spade bit that I haven't tried the punch, but I was considering doing one without power tools and making a saw completely with hand tools so it might be a good excuse to get one and try it out. Is there a brand or model that you all recommend?


----------



## JADobson

Got a good deal on a few saws today. A Disston Canada D-8 (8 ppi crosscut), a Disston Canada Countryside (10 poi crosscut), a no etch, no medallion - don't think it's the original handle 8 ppi crosscut and a silly Sears Backsaw with a plastic handle (not pictured). All the saws came sharp and ready to work. I posted another photo in the workbench thread showing the D-8 at work on my Roubo build.



















This is the handle of the no name saw. I'm not sure if you can see it in the photo but the stain on the blade indicates that there was a larger handle on it at one point.


----------



## TheFridge

Logos ready. Time for laser.


----------



## JADobson

That is a sweet looking etch. 
The last one, that goes on the opposite side of the plate?


----------



## TheFridge

Thanks. Yes in spine.


----------



## bearkatwood

Very nice designs Fridge, have you had any issue with the plate buckling or getting a deformation because of the laser work?


----------



## TheFridge

I haven't been able try it yet and It'll probably be another week before I can. Bob might be able to answer that maybe?


----------



## bearkatwood

I had heard from Ron Bontz that he had a plate get buckled early on. I know Bob uses a guy and he did a few plates for me. He said the process he uses is actually like adhering ceramic to the plate instead of cutting into it.


----------



## TheFridge

I think the process my buddy uses is the same or similar maybe? Spray some stuff on and then laser it. The spray maybe be to keep it from bleeding. Not sure.

I haven't tried it on thin spring steel. Only some mild steel I had handy. There will be some testing on .015 plate and I'll post results.


----------



## DonBroussard

Nice logos, Fridge. Are you making saws to sell or only for your private collection/use?


----------



## BillWhite

Fridge, glad ya like Maggie's work. I was impressed.
Bill


----------



## bearkatwood

look forward to it. I would like to see how it turns out. I have considered doing something with the plate, but it adds so much labor and time to the process. Plus I don't know what design I could do that would look as sharp. That top design with the fleur de lis is really nice.


----------



## summerfi

The spray on stuff is the ceramic. Very expensive. The laser fuses it with the steel/brass and turns it black. I've noticed a very slight distortion on thin steel plates when you hold it in the light just right. IMO it's not significant enough to worry about.


----------



## TheFridge

Thanks Don, A little of both. Mainly for personal use and a couple friends. Nothing too serious. I kinda believe in going just about all out 

Bill, I'm glad I talked to Robert who sent me your way. I'm very happy. Didn't expect it to get done so soon.

BK, well the idea was that if I can get jigs to properly hold everything then it'll be a quick in and out deal after initial setup. Hell, he'd probably let me do it myself after all that. We will see.

Bob, gotcha. I'm sure there will probably be some but considering what I had to do to straighten it in the first place I should be fine. I won't be going full on black. We tried different power and speed settings to get it dark grey/light black. It'll be hit with steel wool after to rough it up a bit. It looked real close to a real etch after playing around.


----------



## bearkatwood

> I kinda believe in going just about all out
> 
> - TheFridge


I like that, anything worth doing is worth over doing in my opinion.
I may have to look back into this etching if I can come up with a design I like.


----------



## CWolf

> I'm trying to repair an old Spear & Jackson 12" backsaw that I got at an estate sale. As shown in the photos, it came with three screws and one split-slot nut. Two of the screws are snapped off at the threaded portion so only a single screw and nut are usable. No medallion was used on this saw, just three identical screws.
> [stuff deleted]
> Does anyone know where I can buy modern replacements for these? How about vintage originals? Or do I just have to drill the handle and blade out to fit the non-tapered ones that are available? Thanks.
> - CWolf


Following up on my post from January-

I was at Roy Underhill's Woodwright's School for a class last weekend (another story) and I took the saw handle along. Ed Lebetkin operates a vintage tool shop on the second floor above the school. I left the handle with him on Saturday while I was in class. Before the day was over, he came back to the shop and told me that he had it all fitted out with replacements for the two missing screws and nuts. They aren't a perfect fit, and they're a little beat up, but given the circumstances, I'm very happy. Now I have to finish my restoration process.

Ed's shop has by far the largest collection of vintage woodworking tools for sale that I've ever seen, probably 1,000 square feet packed with tools. If you happen to be near Pittsboro, NC, it's well worth a visit. Unfortunately, he does not sell online.


----------



## Straust

Hi I just received a Foley 32000 Retoother from my father in law. Unfortunately it is missing the ratchet bars. I am looking for a source for some or dimensions to produce my own.


----------



## summerfi

Ratchet bars are hard to find and the price is high. When I see them on ebay (rarely), they bring in the range of $150 to $200 for a set of five. ErikF (Florip Tool Works) has made some, so maybe you could convince him to make you a set. Do you have the carriers? You'll need them as well.


----------



## Straust

Yes I have one carrier at the moment and he might have more hiding in his shop. He also gave me one of his Foley 387's. He ran a saw shop and had the retoother but never used it as he did not have the ratchet bars for it.


----------



## rtbrmb

I saw one of these nibblers in action at the Detroit Autorama a few weeks ago. it was easily buzzing through sheet metal that was thicker than a saw plate and didn't leave any burrs or a wavy edge. Has anyone tried it on a saw plate? Thanks.

Bill in MI


----------



## BrentParkin

> Hi I just received a Foley 32000 Retoother from my father in law. Unfortunately it is missing the ratchet bars. I am looking for a source for some or dimensions to produce my own.
> 
> - Straust


I might have a set of the 5 bars that came with the retoother in the garage. When I bought mine, the fella gave me some extras. Have a pile of carriers too. The guy just kept piling stuff in my van LOL. Last ones I saw actually sell on that big auction site went for $35 and $37.50 each.


----------



## bearkatwood

If anyone has a ratchet bar higher than 16tpi I would be interested. I might have a few extras that are doubles of lower tooth counts, I would have to look though. I do have an extra carrier bar I could let go too.


----------



## BrentParkin

Last spring I built a 14" carcass saw similar to a Bad Axe Bayonet saw. It has been my most used bench saw since then. Recently, I managed to break the top horn off during transit from home to my shop. I have been developing a new closed tote handle design and decided to make my saw a new handle using the new design for the first time. I picked some walnut and here is the final result. It's really comfortable and I used the saw all day and am pleased. It's always fun to finish a repair. Next time I think I will fill the pores on the walnut.


----------



## TheFridge

Fantastico. Filled pores are nice.


----------



## CampD

Haven't posted much to the saws thread lately, but I had to should my recent find from a clean-out.
This just makes me sad to find a saw left to get in this condition, it is a Disston and a size I don't have, looks like it'll take some work to bring her back to life. Teeth are rotted in the middle.


----------



## summerfi

Doug, I agree it's a sad thing that so many saws are in the condition of the one you posted. Fifty or more years ago people earned their livings with saws and other hand tools, so they valued them and kept them in excellent condition. For several decades now, these same tools have been sitting in people's sheds, basements, hung on barn walls or stashed in buckets. Many have been abused by people who have no clue how to sharpen or properly use and care for a saw. The lucky ones are found by people like you who want to restore them to user status again. Most of the saws people send me for restoration are in bad shape that would cause their original owners to turn over in their graves. Fortunately there are still a lot of these tools out there, and there are people who want to bring them back to life. Good luck on restoring this saw. Post some pics when you get it back in working condition.


----------



## ErikF

That saw has seen better days. Due for a cleanup. Not sure if you guys have talked about this product on here so I'll share.

It's a polishing compound but it's not grease based like most. It has some type of adhesive in it…whatever it is, it doesn't stick to the material you're trying to clean. I bought it with the intention of cleaning the bluing off saw plates and found out that it works beautifully on both wood and metal. It'll clean the plate, the screws, and the handle. It will also put a razors edge on cutting tools.

Here is a piece of bloodwood I used it on- there is no finish on the wood. I think I rough sanded to 150 then took it to the buffer.

I've used it on a handful of old saws with good results.


----------



## DLK

Erik, can you post a link?


----------



## ErikF

Oh yeah…would be good to show where to buy.

A note: I run it on a 6" buffing wheel. Like any fine abrasive, don't run it too fast on wood or you'll leave a burn mark.

McMasterr-Carr (my favorite website)

https://www.mcmaster.com/#polishing-compounds/=1c2l5dy

Click "buffing and polishing compounds"


----------



## DLK

Thanks. Interesting information there.


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

> Doug, I agree it s a sad thing that so many saws are in the condition of the one you posted. Fifty or more years ago people earned their livings with saws and other hand tools, so they valued them and kept them in excellent condition. For several decades now, these same tools have been sitting in people s sheds, basements, hung on barn walls or stashed in buckets. Many have been abused by people who have no clue how to sharpen or properly use and care for a saw. The lucky ones are found by people like you who want to restore them to user status again. Most of the saws people send me for restoration are in bad shape that would cause their original owners to turn over in their graves. Fortunately there are still a lot of these tools out there, and there are people who want to bring them back to life. Good luck on restoring this saw. Post some pics when you get it back in working condition.
> 
> Bob, a little of my past history for you. I worked for the maintenance department at Norfolk Naval base years ago and we had 2 positions at the main maintenance shop for Saw Filers. These guys were the last of their craft and they told me on one occasion that when they started work there that there were 15 full time in their shop.
> 
> - summerfi


----------



## summerfi

Turtle, that's interesting. I grew up just across the James River from Norfolk in Hampton. In addition to being a carpenter, my Dad had a side business of sharpening saws. While growing up I watched him file literally thousands (maybe tens of thousands) of saws. When I was in high school he turned over the circular saws to me, but he retained the handsaws for himself. Construction was booming in that area post-WWII, and there was no shortage of saws needing sharpening. Things have sure changed.


----------



## CampD

Did a quick investigative surgery on the saw.
It's a #7 16" panel saw 10tpi dating from the medallion 1900-1917.
Etching is in good shape, still has a good nib but teeth are rough, most of the heavy rust is concentrated near the teeth. Handle is swollen and will need to be replaced.

Bonus etching "J B HUNTER Company, 1400 summer st, Boston mass
need to do some research.

Bob, yes this saw along with a couple hand drills and squares were in a shed that, lets say, the roof has seen better days.


----------



## Tim457

Impressive results, Erik. What grit polish did you use?


----------



## summerfi

One of the reasons I stopped taking custom saw orders was so I would have the time to develop some new saw designs while expressing my artistic leanings. This project is a kerfing plane, which is really a type of saw rather than a plane. You can read the project post here.


----------



## RWE

With my poor, but developing, handsaw skills, I could use one of those. Quite beautiful. Nothing beats Walnut for me. I read the post or else I would still be scratching my head wondering what you use it for. Very nice.


----------



## JethroBodean

Bob - I would have responded earlier but I had to get the drool out of my keyboard first! Damn that is beautiful. The only problem with a tool like that is that I would never use it. It would sit in a place of honor in my house, despite any complaining from my wife! - Jeff


----------



## ErikF

> Impressive results, Erik. What grit polish did you use?
> 
> - Tim


I used the "120" grit….it's nowhere near as course as 120 sandpaper.


----------



## ErikF

Holy hell, Bob! That's amazing!


----------



## UpstateNYdude

Wow! I can't think of anything better to say than that Bob, you truly are an amazing craftsman.


----------



## tshiker

Stunning! I don't think my wife would complain if I put that in a place of honor! Absolutely fantastic!


----------



## Tim457

I agree, that could go on the mantle and I wouldn't get a complaint compared to trying to put an iron plane there.


----------



## ErikF

Hey guys,

I'm now selling saw parts through my website. Right now it's just folded brass backs and saw plates. The plates are all ground after toothing so there isn't much polishing needed. I'm also offering double taper ground panel saw plates.

Website


----------



## TheFridge

Bookmarked.


----------



## JayT

Cool, I have a 10in saw plate that needs a back. Are you selling saw nuts, too? Didn't see them on the website.


----------



## DavePolaschek

Erik, would you have any interest in making me a plate for a miter jack saw, similar to the one pictured in these two posts ? I'm thinking 20-24" long, by 6"wide, sharpened crosscut and 16ppi. Or if you're interested in making the whole thing…

I'm looking to use it on my miter jack.


----------



## ErikF

> Cool, I have a 10in saw plate that needs a back. Are you selling saw nuts, too? Didn t see them on the website.
> 
> - JayT


I'll be adding saw screws today.


----------



## ErikF

> Erik, would you have any interest in making me a plate for a miter jack saw, similar to the one pictured in these two posts ? I'm thinking 20-24" long, by 6"wide, sharpened crosscut and 16ppi. Or if you're interested in making the whole thing…
> 
> I'm looking to use it on my miter jack.
> 
> - Dave Polaschek


I could make the plate but that's as far as I'd go…sharpening a 20" 16ppi crosscut saw would take same time


----------



## DavePolaschek

Thanks, Erik. I've got a few other projects to wrap up first, but I'll contact you this summer.


----------



## johnstoneb

congrats to Brian bearkatwood. His dovetail saw just received a very mice writeup in Fine Woodworking.


----------



## waho6o9

Right on, congrats Brian!


----------



## bearkatwood

Thank you very much, I was pretty thrilled for that.


----------



## DLK

Very cool for you Brian.


----------



## FoundSheep

Very cool Bearkat, that's an incredible achievement! Congratulations


----------



## CL810

Way cool Brian. Have you met Chris Gochnour? Super guy.


----------



## bearkatwood

Thanks guys, I am sure I don't deserve it. Erik should be getting the press or Bob for sure. I have not met Chris, the saws were shipped to the fine woodworking office and then out to him, so they did a bit of traveling. I appreciate all the kind words and hope I can live up to the hype 
happy cutting.


----------



## bearkatwood

Cutting in teeth can be tricky, but once you have it sorted, no biggie. Putting a back on a piece of shim stock, not super difficult after doing a few. Making a saw handle and drilling some holes in it for saw nuts, hmm probably the most labor intensive part of making a saw unless you are fortunate enough to have a cnc help you out, but again not overly complicated. Now putting them all together and having the finished piece rock solid, there is the thing I have been after. I am always trying to get a tighter and tighter fit so that saw nuts are an after thought 
I recently started adding a wedge to the backs to get them a little something extra in the handle. 









I use a 3/16 and 1/8 setup bar stacked in the mortise and rest my chisel on top to score the inside of the mortise.










I mark a 45 degree line on the handle for reference in chopping out for the wedge.

Then I use calipers to mark my back ( I suppose this only would work with a slotted back, I should have mentioned that. 









Once I am happy with those I stick it on the back. I use a 3/16 center punch to match the drilling setup I have for my pilot holes.
I use to drill my holes in the plate before I stuck the back on and I would have to fudge with it to get a good fit, now I put the back on first and it isn't very hard to either file away a little metal from the plate or pare the mortise a bit more to get a perfect fit, then I can mark out for my holes to be just right. I have found that some saw nuts have shanks that can vary in width and if you don't use just the perfect drill bit it will fit sloppy no matter what, so I have few to choose from depending on the saw nuts I get. 









I don't make my own yet and probably never will as it would be a whole new set of tools and skills to acquire and there are already so many people that do a great job of making them, why bother. I am more of a saw assembler than maker I guess.
So my question is, does anyone else add something to their backs (if you are using a slotted back of course) to give them a little more to grab hold? For slotted backs, fitting the back to the handle after it has been secured is pretty straight forward, but can be tricky too. 
Always trying to learn more about this, usually finding another way not to make a lightbulb though.


----------



## summerfi

Brian, that's an interesting idea putting the wedge on the back. I've never seen that done before. There are many ways to skin a cat, and it seems every saw maker does things a bit different. I think the key is to find what works for you and makes you comfortable with the process and end result. As I mentioned before, I drill the holes in the plate while the plate and back are in the handle, and then install the screws as the final steps in the process. I don't seem to have an issue with loose handles, so that works well for me. There is no right or wrong way to do it though.


----------



## bearkatwood

I wanted a way to add a little more geometry to the mix and strengthen it up. LieNielsen has a square chunk that extends into the handle, but I thought a triangle would work well and be easier to chisel out. They make railroad trusses with triangles  not squares. lol. I do mark out for the drilling while the back is on. I used to drill it out with the handle in place, but the burr on the holes could tear out a bit of material from the handle and some metal scraps would get caught in the kerf and scratch things up so I went with the punch. Constantly searching for the best way I guess and it seems I refine the process a little each time I do one. Wish there was an apprenticeship for this, but O.J.T. will have to suffice. You guys are huge help, thanks.


----------



## ErikF

Brian, I like the wedge.

I drill the plates with a spade bit while the plate and back are fitted to the handle. I know the burrs you speak of, I once used a dull bit to drill the plate…the burr was large enough that I could have used the saw to cut a board without a need for screws.

Have you put any time into back folding with your press setup?

I'm trying out some new material for saw backs. It's called nickel silver- similar to brass but contains manganese and nickel. It is tougher than 260 brass and looks like silver. I annealed backs yesterday so today I'll find out how well it holds up to a full fold. Fingers crossed…it's a bit more expensive than brass, and hopefully more machinable than 260.


----------



## JADobson

Don't the Two Lawyers guys use Nickel Silver? Their saws are just beautiful.


----------



## ErikF

> Don t the Two Lawyers guys use Nickel Silver? Their saws are just beautiful.
> 
> - JADobson


I'm not sure- will take a look. I folded a piece today, very pretty material. Annealing temp is a bit higher than brass, found that out after the first back split.


----------



## bearkatwood

How do you like your new little furnace? I would like to make one like you did. Did you follow a specific plan?


----------



## ErikF

> How do you like your new little furnace? I would like to make one like you did. Did you follow a specific plan?
> 
> - bearkatwood


It's nice for small backs. It's just a little electric kiln that would typically be used for pottery.


----------



## coopersdad

Well, I can't touch the craftsmanship you guys are showing here. I just completed a restoration of a Disston backsaw, I just can't leave these when I see them in such bad shape, and for $10 I wasn't out much. Someone really liked this saw, and they stamped it a lot - although I wish he hadn't stamped the back so hard, that made a bit of a bend in the plate I mostly got out. I still haven't interpreted exactly what the initials are. I would bet that owner was not the one who last had it.


























And I'd bet he didn't sharpen this way either (someone is worse than me!!!):









The plate was a bit more pitted than I'd hoped, but usable. I did a minimum of work on the handle, didn't want to blur the owner stamp. I did repair the chipped upper horn. 









































I filed the teeth down, intending to use the gullets to refile, but soon found that the spacing was all wonky, so I ended up filing them completely off, and refiled teeth at 12 tpi, using a template downloaded from Blackburn Saws. I tried a hybrid filing, with 10 degrees rake, 17.5 fleam, 5 slope, and relaxed the rake to 15 degrees 30 teeth from the toe and 20 teeth from the heel.

It crosscuts and rips well, but with the steep rake, it is unforgiving of any downward pressure at all. If I do it correctly, it goes smoothly, but a little pressure and it grabs. That may ease up once it breaks in some maybe.


----------



## enjuneer

> I tried a hybrid filing, with 10 degrees rake, 17.5 fleam, 5 slope, and relaxed the rake to 15 degrees 30 teeth from the toe and 20 teeth from the heel.
> 
> It crosscuts and rips well, but with the steep rake, it is unforgiving of any downward pressure at all. If I do it correctly, it goes smoothly, but a little pressure and it grabs. That may ease up once it breaks in some maybe.
> 
> - coopersdad


With 5 degrees of slope on the file, your effective rake on the tooth is about 8 degrees. No wonder is is a bit grabby. When it comes time to refile the saw, use a 15 degree rake angle on the file which will result in a 12-13 degree rake angle on the tooth itself.


----------



## DLK

So Bob you have arrived!


----------



## ErikF

That's a nice looking saw! Nice job on the cleanup and more power to you for filing from scratch.


----------



## davidweb09

What I nice match with art and work.


----------



## RWE

Disston Philada #16 (the medallion on the bottom and the chip carving help to distinguish it from other models)

Might be up there as one of my best flea market finds. ($5.00) They may be common as dirt, but it is the only one I have ever seen.

Just got it sharpened. Also, there was some discussion about using a Porter Cable Restorer. I got one for Christmas and used it to do the plate. I like the coarse (80 grit) Scotchbrite pad that came in the package that I got. When I determined no etch was to be found, I used it to go from rust and oxidation to clean steel. Wear a dust mask if you try it.

The plate looks better than my previous efforts with Scotchbrite balls on a drill press.

10 PPI and cuts very nicely.

Yes, I need to clean up the bench!

From the Disstonian site:

The Disston No. 16 saw and its successor, the short-lived D-16, were high-quality saws with a straight back and a close-up style handle. Its quality level was comparable to the D-8. The No. 16 or New 16 was sold from 1880-1928. If there was an "Old" 16 before that, I've never seen it or heard from anybody who owns one. The etch has the phrase "Thin Back" but there is no difference in the thickness of the back or the amount of taper to the blade. Like other full-sized Disston saws, the typical No. 16 saw is about .038" to .040" thick at the teeth and averages .032" at the center of the saw's back. Panel saws are .005" to .008" thinner than full-sized handsaws.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Nice No 16 "RWE". It should make a nice saw to have and use. I haven't seen many in my travels. I bought the one I have from Erik at the Disstonian Institute. It is one of the 16's shown on his site. I still haven't got around to it yet but it needs a trip up to Montana as do several other saws I have. Anyway, cool find.
Mike


----------



## BlasterStumps

Just bought another Stanley 42X saw set. I am planning to take it apart and modify the plunger to narrow it up a little for smaller teeth. That's the one thing about the 42X that I have had for some time that I wasn't too fond of, how thick the face of the plunger was. Am I over thinking it? Seems like an easy mod, just a little grinding.
Mike


----------



## RWE

Blaster: Notice the blue saw set in my picture of the 16. Maybe Summerfi will pipe in and give you the name, but I bought it from his suggestion. Got it on Amazon. Japanese remake of an older style. It is used for the very fine teeth pattern and has a very small anvil. I am running out the door not, but Somax comes to mind as the brand.


----------



## summerfi

Yes, it is Somax. The blue one has a narrow hammer, the gold one has a wider hammer. They are cheaper made copies of the excellent British Eclipse 77.

Many people do grind the hammer down on the Stanley 42x. I've never tried it myself, but I don't see why it wouldn't work fine.


----------



## BlasterStumps

RWE, I have one of that type also. I've used it some. yes, it works for fine teeth.

Thanks for the info Bob. I think I will (carefully) grind the plunger.

The Eclipse is my favourite of them all. Discovered it long after buying my first Stanley and the Somax.


----------



## bearkatwood

I picked up a 42x a few days ago at a local antique store. It was $35 which I thought that was a good deal. Why did I think that? What has happened? These things were $8 a few years ago, now you can't hardly find them on ebay for under $80. Is it collectors or is there really a growing demand for a decent saw set?


----------



## RWE

I searched high and low for a saw jointer (file holder) and finally bartered for one. Prices seemed too inflated, even on Ebay. I see saw sets from time to time, but not in great condition usually. Certain items like sets, jointers, and to me wooden moulding planes all carry what I think of as inflated prices. You can still get saws, planes and such at good prices, but the peripheral equipment seems off the chart.

I had to resort to Ebay to get a decent saw vise as well. Every time I found one, it was overpriced.

I was just researching in my OneNote notes and I got my 42X for $3.33 in 2016. It was at a yard sale and I picked up some Millers Falls calipers and other nice items for a song.

Wrong forum, but maybe I am thinking of too low a price point for a wooden moulding plane. Every time I see one, it is $30 plus a pop. I bought a couple the other day for $15 each and had to do a bit of rehab, but they are working. I think antique dealers think they are more novel than they are and over price them on "age" and don't realize so many of them are defective or need a lot of work.


----------



## donwilwol

and to continue with the wrong thread, if you want/need any more wooden molders at $15 a pop (or less if they need rehab) ping me.

I've also got a couple 42X for well under $80.


----------



## summerfi

My observation is that prices for saws and related equipment have gone up quite a lot in the past 5 years. I think sites like this one and others have encouraged interest and increased prices. I bought my two Somax sets used on ebay for $10 for the pair, and I've bought about four 42X's in the range of $7 to $12 apiece. It's hard to get them for that now. Even common saws are bringing premium prices on ebay these days. Yard sale and flea market prices are probably lagging behind, but there just aren't many tools available in those markets in my area.


----------



## BlasterStumps

With shipping included, I paid $26 for this last 42X that I recently purchased. I believe that is about the same amount as I paid for the other one I bought several years back. My Eclipse was about $10.

I also have a Stanley Handyman (432 I think). I really like it. The spring is a bit stiff in it though.


----------



## BlasterStumps

"coopersdad", I wanted to compliment you on the fine work you did in cleaning up the Disston backsaw. It looks quite nice now. Great job on repairing the handle too. 
Mike


----------



## BlasterStumps

You know Bob, one picture of the swan kerfing plane doesn't do justice to all the really nice intricasies we could see if you would turn, snap a pic, turn, snap another and so on. It's just simply fantastic and I know there is much more to see.
Mike
EDIT: OOOPs! Just found the write up on this beauty. Sorry 'bout that. 


> One of the reasons I stopped taking custom saw orders was so I would have the time to develop some new saw designs while expressing my artistic leanings. This project is a kerfing plane, which is really a type of saw rather than a plane. You can read the project post here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - summerfi


----------



## DLK

I think you should make a few in say maple (white swans) to go with the Black swan and then film a ballet. LOL


----------



## summerfi

Mike, there are several more pictures in my project post here: http://lumberjocks.com/projects/370513

You might be on to something, Don. Maybe I could make a ballet out of it.


----------



## TheFridge

Or picture them fence to fence with a black and white ebony one popping out.


----------



## TheFridge

I had issues with tearout on last coco handle.










My first real use of the drum sander. Getting the glue and template off. Had to send it through angled or it would would snipe.










After some scraper action. I love me some starkly defines bevels. Think I'm gonna just go ahead and get a couple ready for when I get time to set up for laserage.


----------



## bearkatwood

I do like me some cocobolo, even as unforgiving as it is. 
Just got a new set out the door in genuine mahogany. I feel bad for all the previous clients because it seems like I get a little better and the construction is just a little tighter with each passing saw I do. 



























I think I will probably stop taking orders for saws at the end of the month, but I have enough to keep me going until September. When they are all done I think I would like to make myself a nice set, not sure just yet from what. I have some white and black ebony that looks pretty wild. That wedge I did seemed to make a big difference in how stout the connection between the handle and back was. Not sure if it could be done in a folded back, though I will probably give it a try. Hope you all have a good day and I thank you for sharing your knowledge of saws here so I can pilfer from you 
Take care.


----------



## BlasterStumps

^ wow, nice work on the saws and handles you all. Leaves me drooling for sure.

Here's an update on the Stanley 42X saw set mod: (The one on the right is my recent purchase and the one I modified)










I haven't tried it out yet but I have high hopes for it on the finer teeth.


----------



## bearkatwood

Looks like it would do the trick. I have one like that filed down and it did fine on larger teeth as well.


----------



## RWE

Blaster: How hard was it to disassemble the 42x. Mine still looks like it came out of yard sale bin. I have been feeling guilty about not painting it. It looks like both of yours shown above where painted, or did they come in that good a shape.  The anvil mechanism must come out for you to be able to file the anvil? I agree with bearkat, if the anvil does not move from side to side, you can probably set coarser teeth. The fat anvil seems only necessary or better for teeth below 8 PPI and most of those are RIP saws in my collection and have a big flat to place the anvil on.


----------



## BlasterStumps

"RWE", no change to the side to side. Only narrowed the blade of the hammer. Very simple to take the saw set apart. One screw and once it is out the handle comes out and then you can pull the workings out. There is the plunger (hammer) and small spring, then there is a cup with larger spring that fits in the body of the saw set. It should come out fairly easy but may need some WD-40 to work it out.

These two saw sets are as I received them, some paint is chipped away but for the most part they still have most of original paint.

I'm going to leave one with the wider hammer and not change it. 
Mike


----------



## bandit571

Still cleaning up a Millers Falls #214….with the straight guide. And…still learning how to use it….but, for $10…couldn't pass it up..










Supposed to be an older model..










Any hints, out there…


----------



## BlasterStumps

^ I would set it for a light set to start which may not correspond to any numbering on it. It may take some experimenting to find the amount of set that works best for the particular saw. I haven't used the straight guide so don't know about it. I have seen some that are probably newer that have a red/grey paint job. Your's probably is older.
Mike


----------



## BrentParkin

I was really pleased to get my test saws (My personal users) back from laser engraving. I have hummed and hawed over how best to put my name on the saws I make for other people. Following Bob's process of laser engraving is the answer for me.










Since I have ancestors that made saws for Parkin & Marshall in Sheffield, I wanted something similar. Also since my wife is instrumental in all the things I do, I added her Maiden name to the saws.

I think it turned out reasonable. Next up some brand new saws. It's been awhile since there has been a custom saw maker on the Canadian side of the border. LOL


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Nice work on that logo, Brent. Very nice!


----------



## TheFridge

Nicely done bud.


----------



## bearkatwood

The image of the dueling saws and maple leaf are really nice too, great looking etching.


----------



## JADobson

Looks fantastic Brent.


----------



## TheFridge

After struggling to get deep scratches off of plates with hand and power sanding, I tried a fine wire wheel to make them less noticeable. It worked pretty well. I'll probably do that first from now on. And try to scratch them less


----------



## ErikF

> After struggling to get deep scratches off of plates with hand and power sanding, I tried a fine wire wheel to make them less noticeable. It worked pretty well. I'll probably do that first from now on. And try to scratch them less
> 
> - TheFridge


Sanding scratches out of saw plates is the worst. I may use this to punish my daughter.


----------



## bearkatwood

Has anyone used a gizmo like this?









Linkhttps://www.eastwood.com/eastwood-contour-sctr-surface-conditioning-tool-plus-accessory-drums.html?SRCCODE=PLA00020&gclid=Cj0KCQjwh7zWBRCiARIsAId9b4orfapkEIXrsSTv4cKSoHozOrSrt1mOcL1H9wEt8sGxOPRejoHe3OUaAg65EALw_wcB!https://storage.googleapis.com/aws-s3-lumberjocks-com/p73hiv6.jpg!

I have been keeping an eye on craigslist for a surface grinder that can do what I want, but I don't know much about them(saw making in general for that matter) or have the chunk of change needed just yet.


----------



## ErikF

Interesting tool. Looks wide enough to leave an even finish across the plate.


----------



## bearkatwood

A guy I knew back in Oregon said they used something similar to take scratches out of commercial kitchen stainless and would go in a back and forth motion to get an even finish so it might work even on a 6" plate. 
I had to take a picture of this. Even though I have been laid up with the flu for a bit I managed to get started on a few orders. One is a dovetail for a woman with 3" hands and the other is a panel saw for a guy with 4" hands. Amazing the difference.


----------



## ErikF

Getting a good finish on a saw plate is one of the toughest parts of saw making. If that thing works well, you'll be all set. If not, you could make a tiny power rake for your front lawn.


----------



## BrentParkin

> Has anyone used a gizmo like this?


I retired from a metal fabricator a few years ago. We had a couple of guys that did what we called custom work (We were really a defence contractor but our early days were in custom stainless stuff). Anyway, they used pneumatic versions of this tool with fine scotch bright wheels on them to polish their welds and small scratches in the stainless. I thought it was amazing. It produced a perfect even surface in seconds.


----------



## summerfi

Lumberjock RWE (Roger) has the Porter Cable version of that tool. He says it does a good job.

My frustration with scratches on saw plates is that the steel comes from the factory already pre-scratched. I've had some that looked like they drug it across the parking lot behind a pickup. IMO this type of damage is totally preventable if they cared enough to do it. I wrote to Lyon's customer service department about it. Their response - "Nearly all of our customers don't care about the aesthetic properties of our steel. If that's a concern to you, you need to find a different supplier." The problem is, they seem to have a near monopoly on 1095 shim stock in the US. If I could find a better source, I would.


----------



## ErikF

Getting a good finish on a saw plate is one of the toughest parts of saw making. If that thing works well, you'll be all set. If not, you could make a tiny power rake for your front lawn.


----------



## ErikF

I'm with you, Bob. I've had coils show up with a fair amount of rust and heavy scratching. I kinda get it though, we are a tiny portion of their market. They'd probably have to cleanup the processing line to keep the material defect free…something that isn't worth the time, at least to them.

I bought some off Amazon, it was the first time I've ever posted a negative review.

Luckily, I now have a surface grinder in my life. I love it (after a long time of hating it).


----------



## bearkatwood

Well that doohickey is a lot lighter and I am sure quite a bit cheaper. I highly doubt it could double taper a plate though. I might have to get one and give it a try.


----------



## summerfi

So Erik, I saw your short video on FB where you were cutting the bands off a roll of steel. It reminded me of one time when I ordered a roll of 0.042" steel and they sent the wrong stuff that was about twice that thick. I didn't notice the mistake before cutting the bands off. When I did, it sprung loose with such violence that I'm lucky it didn't kill me. It narrowly missed my face, hit the bill of my cap, sending it flying across the shop. It did put a small laceration on my hand. I always wrap a cord around the roll and try to let it uncoil slowly, but that time the cord was useless. When I contacted Amazon about the mistake they said to just coil it back up and return it. Yeah right. LOL. I still have that roll of 0.084 steel and haven't figured out a use for it yet.


----------



## summerfi

Brian, here's a link to the Porter Cable version. It's about $100, which I think is a good bit cheaper than the Eastwood one. It would be interesting to compare the performance of the two. https://www.amazon.com/Porter-Cable-PXRA2676-Surface-Restoration/dp/B01M656PVL


----------



## bearkatwood

It would make great marking knife material. 
On that Porter cable one, I hope it isn't another case of, you get what you pay for. I have noticed of late that cheaper is almost always not better.
I have thought about building a box next to my chopper that I could slip the roll in and then let it uncoil inside, haven't done it yet. I did put something on the end of the last roll I undid so that it wouldn't scratch the living daylights out of the metal as it uncoiled. 
I posted a video on my shop and it shows the saw section.




I also just got a bod for $600 for one of my saws. I am having an auction and all the proceeds go to Treehouse which is a foster care organization.https://www.instagram.com/bearkatwood/


----------



## ErikF

That is terrifying. I've never used anything thicker than .042" and the coils scare me. I had a buddy helping me out in the shop awhile back, he popped a coil and got cut pretty bad. I now open them with the knife broom. I've had these terrible images of it hitting me in the face or between the legs. I wonder if the retoother could handle that plate.



> So Erik, I saw your short video on FB where you were cutting the bands off a roll of steel. It reminded me of one time when I ordered a roll of 0.042" steel and they sent the wrong stuff that was about twice that thick. I didn t notice the mistake before cutting the bands off. When I did, it sprung loose with such violence that I m lucky it didn t kill me. It narrowly missed my face, hit the bill of my cap, sending it flying across the shop. It did put a small laceration on my hand. I always wrap a cord around the roll and try to let it uncoil slowly, but that time the cord was useless. When I contacted Amazon about the mistake they said to just coil it back up and return it. Yeah right. LOL. I still have that roll of 0.084 steel and haven t figured out a use for it yet.
> 
> - summerfi


----------



## bearkatwood

Do you have a link to that video? 
I put about 10 clamps on the big rolls and try to open them one layer at a time, scares the crap out of me.


----------



## RWE

I got this kit for Christmas. $149.00 with several different pads and grits. I have used it on about 4 saws now with great results. I don't think it would be any better than Bob's method of using flap wheels and such in a corded power drill, other than the width of the restorer is very handy. I like the result of the 80 grit Scotchbrite pad.

I have also used it on the sides of a couple of planes with great results.

So, I can say I am a believer. It does not strike me as cheap or poorly made. Certainly it would not compare to a professional tool, but for a hobby guy like me, it is a great new tool in the arsenal.

Porter Cable Restorer Kit

https://www.amazon.com/PXRA2676KIT-Multi-Surface-Restoration-Tool/dp/B01M25Q2ZV/ref=sr12?ie=UTF8&qid=1523586606&sr=8-2&keywords=porter+cable+restorer+kit&dpID=51fH0dPwAhL&preST=SY300QL70_&dpSrc=srch

check out the sides and bottom of this 1953 Victor:


----------



## DLK

I need to try that.


----------



## RWE

I think I got it fixed. Thanks.


----------



## TheFridge

I've seen that Isaac of blackburn has a really thick deburring wheel and a jig he uses to good effect. I won't lie. I've thought about making a magnetic jig or some such so I can send it through the drum sander. I figure a wrap of soft foam and then the paper would keep it from chattering. I'll try anything once =) maybe twice. The deburring setup Isaac has seems to work well for him.

Unrolling tightly bound metal sucks. Could always build something with 4 rollers in an X pattern with X braces on both sides. Unbolt the X on one side. Put the roll in. Bolt it back. Cut the band. And maybe have a dispenser to boot. Just a thought.

I have feelings of jealously over the surface grinder stirring in my gut.

I only bought a .015 sheet 6×24 and it has some scratches and rust. I thought the scratches were just my handling. Guess not 

Do y'all straighten the roll by hand? Just straightening a small 8×2 plate after shearing is a pain for me. Seems like a small rolling mill would be awesome at that.

Editorter cable restorer. Things that make you hmmmm…


----------



## bandit571

Was rebuilding the Worthington Steel factory down by Monroe, OH one year..( old buildings had a fire…we were building "Building C through G) And watched them un-band a coil…..hmmmmm. Coils came by railroad from the AK Steel plant up at Middletown, OH. Still hot, they were allowed to cool a few WEEKS. 2 coils = 90 tons.


----------



## ErikF

Debuting wheels are good stuff. My only stink with them is the cut speed and lifespan.

I'll usually roll plates to straighten them out. Sometimes it's just as easy to bend it by hand and let the back do the rest. Spring steel is a pain- look at it wrong and it'll change shape.


----------



## ErikF

> Was rebuilding the Worthington Steel factory down by Monroe, OH one year..( old buildings had a fire…we were building "Building C through G) And watched them un-band a coil…..hmmmmm. Coils came by railroad from the AK Steel plant up at Middletown, OH. Still hot, they were allowed to cool a few WEEKS. 2 coils = 90 tons.
> 
> - bandit571


Two weeks…that's crazy. Wish they'd cool them in my shop so I wouldn't struggle so much to keep the place warm.


----------



## TheFridge

I'll have to try a deburring long before long.

Yeah it's a pain to eyeball. Straightening isn't bad for me. It's straightening without twist that's the killer.


----------



## onoitsmatt

You guys are killing me… I just bought the porter cable restorer and an 80 grit scotch brite wheel on ebay after reading these last few posts. Only $75 with free shipping and includes 6 sanding wheels. The scotch brite wheel was a 2 pack for $15 with free shipping. Will do a before and after post on a saw when I can.


----------



## bearkatwood

Do you bother with a slip roller Erik? I have one I have used a few times, but most of the time they work themselves out. 
I am thinking the surface grinder will be an eventuality for me, thought that doohickey looks promising. 
I tried the sander, started a small fire which was entertaining.


----------



## TheFridge

I believe when I bought my saw from Bob the subject line said something along the line of: You Enabler 

Drum sander works. But not with 120g.



















Scratches be too deep. 3passes per side took 1/2 thou off plate. 320ish might do the trick.

You tried already BK?  yeah it had a little sparkage


----------



## DLK

Wouldn't it be great to have a benchtop belt sander where the platen was not ferrous metal. Then a magnetic holder such as Fridge holds would be useful for all sorts of grinding tasks.


----------



## ErikF

Nice work fridge. Dial that in and you could taper grind a panel saw. Figure out how to run flood coolant and you'd be golden. I once ran a plate on my grinder without coolant. It wasn't good. The plate peeled itself of the magnet. Looked like a burned banana. Having such little material to start out with really doesn't leave any place for the heat to go.


----------



## bearkatwood

My highest grit was 120 and I tried a large plate. I probably had it pressing down a bit much or something and a large build up of dust. It was really fun, lets just say that. Plus it got really hot.. of course, so I was worried about the temper. Like I said, I am sure a surface grinder is an eventuality for me, just a matter of finding the right one and having the green to grab it. 
My newest thing is that I am not happy with my slitting process, it worked pretty good for a while, but I am getting pickier and want absolute perfection when I slot the handle. I have decided to rip apart a cheap, old miter box and use the posts a to hold the saw to a contraption that will allow me to move the saw in or out depending on the thickness. Of course the best would be some kind of jewelers table saw or something if there is such a thing. I have also thought of making a little oscillating saw with a fence that I could just drop the saw down on. I spend more of my time problem solving lately than getting things done.


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## RWE

Bearkatwood

I think you just gave me a reason to use the old 50 1/2 Stanley miter box that I have that will accept panel saws or backsaws. If I am right, I think I can adjust it to different plate thicknesses. Maybe I could get some thinner saws to work in it.

If I rig a holder/clamping jig that I can center the handle with, it might make cutting the slit easier. I might even be able to set it so that the depth stop comes into play to set the depth of cut.

I use a 358 quite a bit, but I have the 50 1/2 that is never used. Might be worth some experimenting.

Post a picture if you get the chance after you get it working.


----------



## Tim457

That sanding tool looks pretty sweet.

Brian I see surface grinders go by on Craigslist pretty cheap sometimes, but since I don't have the space for one I never looked into how reasonable they are to get to dialed in shape. Of course ole Murphy says they won't come up for a reasonable price at the same time you have the extra cash.


----------



## bearkatwood

I will, I was going to tinker with it today. 
I had the idea after looking at a fret slotting jog









I thought, well why can't I just use my old miter box, I have two and it doesn't get used often. If I could just make a setup like that where I could hold the handle perpendicular to the blade. Then I thought about ripping apart the old miter box. 
I thought of making two plywood open ended boxes. One would slide inside the other. The inside box will slide and have cams on the side to lock it in place, the outer box will have the posts attached to hold the saw. It is one of those tube type so maybe I could flip the blade upside down and cut in some rip teeth or just resharpen it. I didn't want to damage the saw if I didn't have two, just borrow the parts to see if this would even work.









Of course something like this would be nice too.









Or an oscillating blade with a fence.


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## bandit571

Might go and find out how Disston used to do their handles? Look up on how they cut the "cover top" handles' slots.










Thin kerf plywood blades?


----------



## enjuneer

I use a milling machine with a slitting saw mounted on an arbor to start the cut for the plate slot. It cuts a clean slot that is perfectly parallel to the side of the handle and centered on the blank. This slot then guides the plate of a back saw to finish the cut to full depth. For a 0.025" thick plate, I use a slitting saw of the same thickness and a back saw with a 0.020" plate having 0.002" of set on each side. The resulting slot is a slip fit for the new plate.


----------



## bearkatwood

I would love to know how disston did it, they probably had a machine I am sure. I was looking for a one step processes to keep the time down, but I will waste three weeks making the machine to do it lol.


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## ErikF

Slot cutter on a mill is pretty accurate


----------



## DanKrager

+1 on the milling slot cutter. You have options in thousandths of different thickness to get the perfect fit.

I was going to mention that there is a medical saw that is reciprocating and is used to remove plaster casts without skin damage. Might be pricey unless some of our medical friends can raid the medical junk pile like I did for many years. (Ever notice that my assembly table is a gurney? and my parts tills are $4000 medicine carts?)

Then I thought of the trim carpenters "buzzing saw" that reciprocates and plunge cuts. It may not be accurate enough for your needs.

Just tossing out ideas for you to waste your time on…..enabling, you know, like a good LJ is committed to do.

DanK


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## summerfi

Good discussion, guys, but let me throw out one caution if I may. Disston sold more saws than anyone else in history. He did it by automating his process to make large volumes at low cost. His saws started out looking like this…










and ended up looking like this….










Beware the automation trap before you get too far down the road.


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## ErikF

I think it all depends if the vision of who is running the show. Whoever made the call to go with the second saw pictured could have taken the saw a different route with the same process.

Most premium saw maker use CNC for rough handle shaping. You can make a beautiful handle or an ugly handle. Same with backs. If your target market is the serious woodworker- you build a nicer saw. Bad Axe is considered top of the line and just about all components are machine processed. That said- they're beautiful and quality saws.


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## TheFridge

> Just tossing out ideas for you to waste your time on…..enabling, you know, like a good LJ is committed to do.
> 
> DanK
> 
> - Dan Krager


Hear hear

I use a razor saw with no set. It sucks. Another reason to get a mill thrown in the pile.

Edit: seems like there are a couple processes where automation could help speed it up or do it a bit more accurately but end with the basically the same end result. A high quality saw. Hopefully. I think if you tried to market a 50$ saw it would look like a lot closer to the later model than an earlier. Don't think it would work well for small sales.


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## bearkatwood

I am definitely not looking to make the second saw pictured. My focus is that I have ruined a few handles because the kerf got just a smidge off and when I am chunking out some good cash for the wood, sometimes as much as $24 per handle I want a repeatable way to cut the kerf and I don't mind if it goes fast too. I have done quite a bit on it this morning and I will post some pictures here in a bit. I think you guys will like it. It is about as simple as I could make it.
Whoever designed that second saw I am sure has a nice new boat now, if that means anything. I don't even have an old boat ;( so a little automation might be just what the fisherman ordered.


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## JADobson

> - summerfi


I took that saw and turned it into this: 

It's hard to believe just how much better it is.


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## TheFridge

That's friggin awesome  a happy face emoji with sunglasses would go perfect here. If I used emojis…

Ditto on that BK. That coco handle I posted had a bit of wandering that will need fixing.

Edit: bob, what brand and where did you get your counterbores?


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## summerfi

LOL Brian, I'm guessing the guy who designed the second saw is 6 feet under now, and his boat is rotting away somewhere. The sad part is nobody remembers his name. The guy who designed the first saw-his name and hopefully his saw will be with us forever. I'm not against tools or jigs or machines. Heck, I use them myself and wish I had more. I guess all I'm saying is that we need to clearly think about what our objectives are and then use the methods that best achieve those objectives. If the objective is to make a saw that looks like a hand made piece of art, then we should probably use hand made methods. If the objective is to make a lot of saws quickly, then automating the process is smart. And as Erik said, there's no reason those saws can't be good saws. There is no right or wrong. It depends on what you are trying to do. I doubt Henry Disston started out trying to make saws that look like the second one, but gradually, over many years, his company either changed their objectives or got sucked down a path they didn't intend to go on. Actually I see the second saw as a success. While it looks like crap, it made the company a lot of money, which was probably their objective at that point in time. It's just not the path I would choose.

I hear you on the price of wood. I shake my head every time I walk into my local hardwood store. I find it hard to justify buying exotic wood at those prices.


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## onoitsmatt

I've never cut a slot for a saw handle, but will throw this out there… would a thin kerf blade installed in a biscuit joiner work? You can set the depth to get the blade centered in your handle and cut perpendicularly (in therory) to the sides of the handle. Though the depth of cut may not be enough, it would get your starter kerf where you need it and you can finish off the depth with a hand saw.


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## summerfi

Wow, nice job on that saw handle. It's hard to believe it's the same saw.

Fridge, I have three counterbores, each different. One is an antique that I don't use much because it is slightly undersize. The second is a recent purchase, but they went out of production right after I got mine. It's a 3/16×7/16 with a brad point bit and the cutter has "ears" like a forstner bit so you don't get tearout around the edge. The third is like the one in this link, though I'm not sure it's the exact same brand. Each of the three has their advantages and disadvantages, but they all do a pretty good job. https://www.amazon.com/Snappy-Bottom-Counterbore-Countersink-16in/dp/B01MDNJ7ZA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1523644820&sr=8-1&keywords=snappy+counterbore+3%2F16+1%2F2


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## BlasterStumps

I've made a few ugly handles. I cut all my kerfs with another backsaw, basically free-hand. Told ya they were ugly.

Now I have a new backsaw to try. It has a very thin plate and almost no set to the teeth. I haven't cut one with it just yet but I have high hopes for it. I now have a better saw set so I might give it just a wee-bit more set first.


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## summerfi

I cut my handle slots like you, Blaster, freehand. First mark a line in the center, then go around the line with a gent's saw making a kerf about 1/4" deep, then use a backsaw of appropriate thickness to finish the cut. I've never ruined one, but it's slow. I once bought a backsaw with a pretty nice user made handle, but the slot was cut crooked in it, which caused a bow in the blade when the handle was tightened. I glued a piece of veneer in the slot and re-cut it straight. It turned out fine and the repair wasn't even visible.


----------



## BlasterStumps

"...the slot was cut crooked in it, which caused a bow in the blade when the handle was tightened".

I have done that very thing. : (


----------



## ErikF

I feel bad for the Disston brand. Once power tools showed up and the country became more urban, the demand must have changed quite a bit. No internet so what's something you can stock in the stores that may appeal to those needing a handsaw once in irregularly. A cheap saw for occasional use.

I like that counterbore you posted Bob. Two birds with one stone. I use a piloted counterbore.

For option for cutting the slot is a slitting saw in a drill press


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## bearkatwood

Disassemble.

















The original blade was too thick, but will work nicely for slotting for thicker plates. I made a .020 plate to go in it and gave it just a little set. This photo is showing how I don't use the setup blacks that are for the foley, but rather a 3/4" piece of plywood to set the plate the right distance on the bar. Lo tech, that way I don't have to take the ratchet bar off every time I want to set in a new plate.










This was the old setup I had. It was a piece of plastic with magnets in it to hold the blade. Worked ok. until it started getting worn down.









I wanted a solid chunk of aluminum, but the bog box store only had the square tube. This is kind of a prototype to see if I like it, eventually I want something made of metal and very sturdy.


















Seems to work pretty well and because I have stop blocks on the miter saw I can draw a line on the jig to show where the cut will bottom out.



















Have a nice weekend all.


----------



## ErikF

Making saws


----------



## TheFridge

Great happenings


----------



## FoundSheep

Wow Erik! I can't think of a strong enough platitude to say how cool that looks.


----------



## bearkatwood

I agree, amazing Erik.


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## TheFridge

I might need some recommendations for finding some A+ quality handle blanks in a week or 2. I don't mind paying 30$+ for 1/2 bdft of awesome stuff.


----------



## ErikF

Thanks guys.

Fridge- what type of materiel are you after for the blank?


----------



## bearkatwood

I have been using Northwest Timber for high quality stuff.


----------



## TheFridge

Erik, nothing inparticular. Disgustingly gorgeous is the only requirement.

BK, I will check it out. Thanks.


----------



## ErikF

Here is a quick video of the cleaning compound I post a couple weeks ago.

Makes easy work

Disston


----------



## FoundSheep

I have a question for the group. I have an old, no-name backsaw, attached either rivets. It's been in my to-do list for a long time, so this weekend I got to it. I thought it just needed a cleaning and a sharpening, but then I saw how crooked both the plate and the back were.
I've seen posts about how to disassemble and doctor a backsaw with screws, but how do I approach it with the rivets? Anyone have this experience?








The rivets.








Bowed plate.








Back leans to a side.


----------



## RWE

I will let some of the experts pipe in, but I have had luck with striking the back on something solid like a bench top. The plate can get warped from tension in the back itself. A strike on the back will sometimes change the tension enough to make the blade come into alignment. I had read this before and tried it on an old Disston backsaw with good results. Paul Sellers demos it using a Gent's saw. Paul is pretty solid. I think at some point the size of the saw defeats this. Works better on smaller more flexible saws.

Give that a try.

The "rivets" look like a sanded down split nut. Do you have a screw slot on the reverse side? If so, try the wooden clamp trick where you drill out a hole on one side of your wooden screw clamp and place the hole on the side of your handle where you need to turn the screwdriver, but put the full side against the nut to hold it while you unscrew the screw.

It it is riveted, there are saw nuts for cheap on Amazon and many sources for replacement split nuts on the saw sites. I like the Blackburn and TGIAG offerings.

Get a Dremel and cut the center of the rivet or drill them out if you can work that out.

Seller's video on Gent Saw. This worked on a small Disston for me.


----------



## bearkatwood

I had one that resembled that a while back. It turned out it had split nuts, they had just been sanded down past the split. I used a cuttoff wheel on a dremel and put a new split in and they came right out. As for the back, I use a piece of leather in my machinist vise and a 1/4" box wrench to tweak the back as needed. The plate can be gently hammered on a piece of hardwood to straighten it. Hopefully these aren't wrong ways to do things, just how I have had luck.


----------



## bearkatwood

I like my saw vise pretty well, but I wouldn't mind a wider one. It has a crack in one side and it seems to rattle a little more on that side. I had thought about taking it to get welded, not sure if that could be done neatly or not.


















I think I like the kind that bolt on to something attached to the bench like this one








Rather than the clamp on kind, but I don't have a ton of hours behind them all to really be too picky. I like the gramercy vise from what I have seen, it looks stout and is modeled after a good design.
though I just saw this on ebay and was interested. I could use extras maybe for a sharpening class.
saw vises









My question is what vises do you all use and what recommendations might you give for your dream vise.

Also here is the little bocote saw handle 3" hand size. It is for the same person that ordered the last bocote saw I did which had a closed tote and a volute in the lambs tongue. I had to play around to get a volute in this one. I think it looks nice enough.
Hope everyone is well, thanks for sharing.


----------



## ErikF

I really like the saw vise I got from Jason at Texas Heritage Woodworking. It's 18" wide and has leather lined clamp faces. It's made of wood, wouldn't be too difficult to build. Sorry for the sideways picture. It's easy to put in a vise, clamp to the bench, I now have it permanently attached. 









I like the bocote handle. It's one of my favorite woods for saw handles.


----------



## BrentParkin

> My question is what vises do you all use and what recommendations might you give for your dream vise.
> 
> - bearkatwood


Well Brian, I built the Texas Heritage saw vise and made my own hardware for it. It works extremely well. Here is another view of one since Erik's is sorta sideways on the screen .










Easy to build and they have plans for it that you can download.

As for the holy grail. Well I don't use my Texas heritage style vise now that one of these beasties followed me home courtesy of another Lumberjock! These are generally super hard to find and super expensive once you do find them (unless you get a lucky find at a sale somewhere). But at 28" long they are the bees knees for holding a saw to sharpen it.


----------



## bearkatwood

I made myself a wooden version about three or four years ago, before seeing Jasons, I think he had a slimmer design. I like my wooden hinge on it, but I wanted something much slimmer to use that wouldn't clunk my knuckles when I was sharpening. Jasons would fit the bill I think.









So I am now wanting top buy this acme bastard, if anyone has one to sell or a lead on one for me  thanks. I want one of Jasons too, have been tossing that around for a while and I still may pop on gramercys vise.
Oh heck, I want them all 
Have a great day sawyers.


----------



## summerfi

I picked up my first Kenyon saw this morning on eBay.uk. It is by John Kenyon, but unfortunately not THE John Kenyon. It may be his grandson. Rather than a late 18th century or early 19th century saw, this one was made about 1870. Too bad it has a modified handle. Now I have to decide what to do with it. The options, as I see them, are leave it as is, repair the handle, or make a new handle. What would you do?


----------



## theoldfart

I'd say repair.


----------



## RWE

I would vote for repair, if you think that you have some wood that would reasonably match. It is more a collector than a user and the missing front bottom horn (I assume that is the issue) kind of jumps out at you.

If it were a user, I would leave it as is.

Secondly, I figure you are up to doing a proper repair. Not everyone would be able to make the repair and would be better off to leave well enough alone.


----------



## bearkatwood

if you were really good at matching the patina and wear I would say make a new handle and distress it, but the repair may the best option on that. If it were a simple break I would say leave it, but they ruined that by sanding away a chunk. Cool find Bob.


----------



## summerfi

Thanks for the thoughts guys. If this was a serious collector saw I would say leave it as is. Hardcore saw collectors don't like to see anything done to old saws except perhaps a very light clean up. I'm sure I could make a credible repair, but due to the nature and location of the repair, it would be pretty visible. Trying to match the patina would be problematic, as well as gluing end grain. I could make a new handle patterned after the old one and have the intent of always keeping the old handle with the saw, but loose handles have a way of getting separated from their saws after awhile. I'll keep thinking about it since there's no rush. I've thought about some old saws for two or three years before deciding what to do with them.

BTW does anyone have a source for quarter sawn European beech? I've been searching for a long time. Any of the lumber suppliers I've contacted won't select for quarter sawn for small quantities.

Here's another picture of the handle. These are ebay pics.


----------



## RWE

Kind of kidding, but I see a lot of old wooden planes made of beech. Many are cracked and not worth repair. I have one and I have thought many times of using the front and back of the plane for saw repairs. So anyone out in Lumberjocks world have an old wooden plane, hopefully of European beech. I figure there will be some quartersawn grain in a plane.

I am not sure if my plane is European or American, but having a double iron dates it just before and around the turn of the century. A single iron is earlier and therefore more likely to be European.


----------



## enjuneer

> BTW does anyone have a source for quarter sawn European beech? I ve been searching for a long time. Any of the lumber suppliers I ve contacted won t select for quarter sawn for small quantities.
> 
> - summerfi


Bob, A planemaker friend buys European Beech from Horizon Wood Products. He said to ask for Pete.

https://www.horizonwood.com/


----------



## ErikF

Repair- it looks kinda creepy


----------



## bearkatwood

I think that would be a difficult repair to say the least, how would you go about it?


----------



## summerfi

Thanks Bob Page. I'm on the road for a few days but will follow up when I get back.


----------



## Hornibrooks

Great! Those saws are still good.


----------



## Tim457

Hah I agree with creepy. I can see the argument for either repair or replace. I would lean towards replace, and keep the original as is except you make a good point about them getting separated. Maybe go that way if you tag the old handle and can find a place to keep them together, either in the same chest or till.

You did a nice job on that saw vice, Brent.


----------



## bearkatwood

Saws, using, collecting, cleaning and buying… and making  I put together a couple bocote saws for a lady with 3" hand size, I don't like making saws where I can't test the comfort level, I had to make these all equally uncomfortable and hope for the best.









I made my first half blind dovetail tool at request from someone to complete a set. It was fun to make and didn't turn out half bad. Little concerned with how the stress of whacking it on the back will affect it, but I tried it out a few times and it seems nice and solid.


----------



## bandit571

Drove over to the Sharpener's place yesterday….dropped off three saws for him to work on.
Disston No. 4 5"x 30" 
Disston D-8 20" panel saw…10 ppi
Richardson Brothers No. 8 skew back, 26" long 8ppi

He charges about $13 a saw. And, $0.60 per inch on mitre saws. Should be ready for pick up in 10 days.

Cutting Edge, Marysville, OH.

Been using a No. 4 5" x 28" in the Langdon 75…..until the 5×30 comes back home. Then the 5×28 can go and get "refreshed" along with a 4×26 one.


----------



## bearkatwood

That is an awesome price.


----------



## ErikF

I should just ship that guy all my saw plates


----------



## bearkatwood

So a quick question. What does one of these usually go for if found. I have a lead on a 26" and a $36 and they are $1,000 and $1,500 respectively. Is that nuts or about right?


----------



## BlasterStumps

In reference to Bob's posting showing his J.Kenyon saw:
That's a nice looking saw Bob. To me, it doesn't matter that someone modified the handle. If it is comfortable to use like that, I wouldn't change it. The wood has great patina or whatever it is called. Really nice find. 
Mike


----------



## CampD

Restored a Bow Saw that's been hanging on the porch wall at Camp, never really paid much attention to what it was other than a decoration. Turns out it's a Disston and cleaned up rather nicely, works better than I thought.


----------



## JADobson

> So a quick question. What does one of these usually go for if found. I have a lead on a 26" and a $36 and they are $1,000 and $1,500 respectively. Is that nuts or about right?
> 
> - bearkatwood


Well - I picked up mine for $10 CAD (so like $7.50 for you). Brent Parkin has it now. But I think I got pretty lucky. Spotted it in the background of a "tools for sale" kijiji ad/


----------



## Brit

Wow! Some nice work going on here chaps. Keep it up.

Came across this strange saw on ebay the other day and was wondering if anyone has seen one before or knew what it would be marketed as. It was made by Taylor Bros. I guess you could do a bit of sawing and then grate some cheese for lunch with it.


----------



## bearkatwood

Found this post on instagram from 18 months ago. So all of you who have found one for under $1,000 your stock just went through the roof.









I wonder what was going on with those perforations? Something to do with tensioning the blade?? And the saw nuts all in a line like that, very interesting design.


----------



## Brit

*Brian* - The saw nuts are all in a row because the edge of the handle is square to the back edge of the plate. Some manufacturers made a model like this so the carpenter could use his saw as a square to draw a line on the wood to be cut. Some of these types of saws also had a ruler engraved along the back of the plate for marking the wood. One saw, three uses.


----------



## BrentParkin

Yes I was really lucky to pry mine away from James… and thankful too!

I saw one recently advertised in Toronto for sale at $750 CDN.

I think most of them are removed from Acme saw filing machines (although they could be bought separate) and then mounted for hand filing. My first experience with one was at the saw sharpening class at Bad Axe Tools. They have a shop full of them as well as a functioning Acme saw filer which I saw in use as well. Quite different than a Foley filer.

I'm just about in the final stages of finishing a saw bench to work on building new and restoring and sharpening old saws. It is designed after the style that Bad Axe uses. Simple and functional. Here is a picture of one of the benches from Bad Axe and you can see the Acme vise mounted on it. This was Mark's bench in their shop. I won't have a laptop on mine as I work LOL.










Regards,

Brent



> So a quick question. What does one of these usually go for if found. I have a lead on a 26" and a $36 and they are $1,000 and $1,500 respectively. Is that nuts or about right?
> 
> - bearkatwood
> 
> Well - I picked up mine for $10 CAD (so like $7.50 for you). Brent Parkin has it now. But I think I got pretty lucky. Spotted it in the background of a "tools for sale" kijiji ad/
> 
> - JADobson


----------



## donwilwol

@Andy, cooling fins?


----------



## enjuneer

The perforated saw plate was intended to facilitate resharpening over time by marking the bottom of the gullets. It was first patented in 1867.


----------



## bearkatwood

Very cool info, thanks.


----------



## Brit

@Don - Long time no chat. Hope you're well. I don't have much time for LJs at the moment. Working 12-16 hour days until mid-August. It's killing me.

Thanks Bob P. I thought it was probably to keep the gullets running straight. Good info.


----------



## Straust

I thought I might share a bow saw rebuild I did a little while back. Turned out much better than I anticipated.


----------



## duckmilk

> I still have that roll of 0.084 steel and haven t figured out a use for it yet.
> 
> - summerfi


Bob, what about a couple of tree felling saws? Maybe just one man style instead of two man, since rarely do two men cut down trees in tandem anymore.


----------



## kwigly

> So a quick question. What does one of these usually go for if found. I have a lead on a 26" and a $36 and they are $1,000 and $1,500 respectively. Is that nuts or about right?
> 
> - bearkatwood


Well, if someone offered me $500 for my Acme filing machine ( 26" vice), they could have it, but you'd have to get someone to pick it up as I'm not shipping it (Peterborough, Ontario)


----------



## bearkatwood

Quick question. I have a veneer saw to make and I want to countersink the plate so I can attach it via threaded insert and a countersunk head screw. I found this one link








but it is for a 5/16 hole which would be a little bigger than I was thinking for the screws.
There is also this guy. A metal punch and countersink tool, but not sure if it will handle the 1095 ok.









Does anyone know of another option? Thanks.
Fridge I went back through the forum posts to see if I could find that punch that was discussed a while back and saw the filing jig you made, nice setup.


----------



## BlasterStumps

what about a stepped drill point bit? titanium or cobalt. Might work if you clamp the work piece securely and are real attentive to how deep you let it drill. I have one of those bits that I have used to drill saw plate. I really clamp the saw plate solid to the drill press table if I use that bit.


----------



## bearkatwood

I am looking to stamp or punch the metal instead of drill it away. Something along these lines.



























Not sure if it will deform the plate or not, but it is the best thing I could come up with for holding the plate flush to the outside of the handle.


----------



## enjuneer

You could try an aviation dimple die. They come in a variety of sizes for countersinking screws in sheet metal. I think it will work fine with 1095 steel. They are designed for use in a dimpling frame, but I think you could make up your own holder to punch them by hand.


----------



## bearkatwood

That is perfect, thank you. I think the only caveat with those are that I was not looking to buy another tool to use them, I was thinking of using my shop press. A friend of mine is going to turn me a set out of tool steel. Thanks.


----------



## ThePeoplesWoodshop

Started my own thread but i thought i'd post this beauty up here as well on recommendation.

pretty sure this is a 490 atkins saw with a tuttle tooth pattern. Belongs to my mother in law which she got from her mother who got it for her dad for $25 ages ago *still has the paper tag from the antique store or whenever she got it from all those years ago* She was in need of a little TLC. built my own dirty saw vice and now i just have to do all this file work….. so much file work.


----------



## BrentParkin

Well it isn't quite an Acme saw vise, but there is an interesting 24" one I have never seen before going in an auction in Nevada.http://www.icollector.com/Saw-clamp_i29847932


----------



## bearkatwood

That is an interesting one. Take a look at this guy currently on ebay. 









Apparently it clamps onto a vise of some sort and has needle files that go out front like a sewing machine or something. Pretty wild looking contraption. Something to sharpen blades for a cotton gin, but I bet you could use it on a hand saw.


----------



## theoldfart

I think there is a similar contraption for sharpening harvesters.


----------



## bandit571

Saws are back home….Price? NADA! I did get to see what he uses,,,has a Foley set-up. 
Millers Falls Langdon 5×30, Disston D-8 20" 10 ppi panel saw, and a Richardson Bros skew back, 8 ppi 26" long crosscut. I may have all the "bases" covered…


----------



## bandit571




----------



## ErikF

I put some gcode together to slot on my CNC.

Slot cutting


----------



## FoundSheep

Wow Erik, one of these days you'll need to do a full tour, and go through all the steps.


----------



## ErikF

> Wow Erik, one of these days you ll need to do a full tour, and go through all the steps.
> 
> - FoundSheep


That would be neat. I keep a list of the steps and time it takes to do each step…57 steps to a dovetail saw.


----------



## FoundSheep

Or maybe start offering in shop tours / classes, hint hint


----------



## bandit571

Brought home 7 saws from an auction the other day…so far one has been rehabbed..









26" long, 10ppi, Disston D-8 crosscut, skew back..









Top bolts was a steel replacement the owner used…and is rusted in place,,,the rest are Brass. 
Tried to rehab a second one today..was just too pitted to do much too…









Haven't counted the teeth, yet. Warranted Superior all steel bolts. Seems to have been the original handle. Holes in the plate match the handle's. Saw is 26" long, and is a skew back. Teeth are a bit finer that 10ppi…
Next one to be rehabbed?









Late model Atkins No.59…8ppi, 26" long, straight back..









Might be a fun one?
BTW, the D-8 is sitting in it's saw kerf, only took 6 strokes to cut that far down….plate was arrow straight, teeth were already very sharp..might be a "Go-to" saw? Amber Shellac was used on the cleaned up handle.


----------



## bandit571

Mystery saw is stamped as a 10 ppi. large eagle in the steel medallion..









Cut is smooth as glass. Haven't even touched the teeth. Traces here and there of an etch, and a bit of writing…









Toe has a bit missing….otherwise plate is straight as an arrow. No cracks seen in the handle. Has since shined the steel bolts up. Hang it up in the overhead til.

Not sure who made this saw. Steel bolts, WS medallion…full length plate, with a "small" panel saw sized handle?
Hmmmm.


----------



## TheFridge

BK, I just wonder about cracking and plate deformation with that punch. Maybe anneal it?


----------



## bandit571

The Atkins saw has an etch that says it is a Perfection brand saw…No.59? Cleaned it up tonight..took about an hour to do..









Even clocked the slots..









Stamped as an 8 ppi. 26" long, straight back cross cut ( I think, has plenty of set..)









Might just do..









Not sure what year this one was made…bolts are Nickle plated Brass.

Very faint etch. Plate is arrow straight, handle free of any cracks or chips.


----------



## RWE

Bandit:

Any guess on the date range for that saw. Nice looking, but seems to be a 30's - 50's range saw based on the handle detail. Is there a good Atkins site for typing those saws? I have a couple of very late, as in not that great a quality, Atkins hand saws. This one seems to be more refined than those and I was just curious about your guess on the date of manufacture.

Cleaned up very nicely.


----------



## bandit571

Around 1930-1952…seems to be a No, 65? I also have a pair of No. 51 saws…one before the 1952 era, and one after…


----------



## summerfi

After looking for a long time, I finally found a nice piece of European beech for saw handles. This board is quarter sawn, has nice fleck, and even has a light wavy flame grain. I wish it was a bit thicker, because at 1-3/4" I won't be able to resaw it and get two boards that will produce 7/8" finished saw handles. I still should be able to get 5 or 6 handles out of the board, though, so I'm happy.


----------



## bearkatwood

Where did you end up finding it through? Very nice piece, look forward to seeing what you do with it.


----------



## summerfi

Brian, I got it at Gilmer Wood in Portland. They have 3 or 4 boards left on their website, one of which looks quarter sawn like this one.


----------



## bearkatwood

Snagged it and got a nice chunk of European Pearwood as well. Thanks Bob, not a bad site.


----------



## BrentParkin

Well after what seems like ages, I have just about crossed the finish line on building a bench to rehab and build saws on. I take no credit for the design as it mostly is the design of the benches they use at Bad Axe to build their great saws.

After a whole lot of this in 4×6 Doug Fir









The end result is this:



















There is a vise of some sort at each corner. An Acme saw vise and files at one corner, a small wood vise on another, a hefty vise with leather lined angles to grab saw plates when removing or installing saw backs and a 6" machinist vise…. just because (maybe to try Mike Wentzloff's method of evening the set on a plate). There is a nicely sized work surface to build or break down saws. There are also two Foley foot powered saw sets mounted out front (Still have to install the pedals).

And finally this is out in the garage so that the grungy aspect of metal filings etc. are not near my woodworking bench. I think I am going to like working on this!!


----------



## bearkatwood

What an amazing set up.


----------



## BrentParkin

> What an amazing set up.
> 
> - bearkatwood


And it's all inside a 6' square. 36 square feet. Although you sometimes stand outside the square to work on certain things. LOL


----------



## TheFridge

Brent, that's pretty sweet.

BK, you suck  I was thinking "Man some that beech would make some nice handles."

And then I scrolled down to the next reply


----------



## BrentParkin

> Snagged it and got a nice chunk of European Pearwood as well. Thanks Bob, not a bad site.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - bearkatwood


Boy I wish I had those options. Living out here on the Canadian Prairies, I need to learn how to make a saw handle out of wheat chaff. I try to buy nice wood whenever I am near places like yours came from when visiting the U.S.


----------



## bearkatwood

This is my space for saws, I just put some formica down and it cleaned it up quite a bit from just the plywood top.


----------



## DLK

In my current setup I used a second garage bay separated by a wall from wood shop for the metal/cleaning work. I don't know what I will do in the new shop. But *BrentParkin* I do like your setup.


----------



## JADobson

Brent that vise looks right at home there!


----------



## DanKrager

That is one sweet setup, Brent.

DanK


----------



## bandit571

Don't have the room in the Dungeon Shop, for a special bench….have to make do with what I have..









8 ppi, straight back..









Tiny Eagle, Warranted Superior . 









WORTH, Spring Steel Warranted….Can't quite read the writing below the "spring steel" banner….









Cuts very fast….and straight. Might be a keeper?


----------



## BlasterStumps

Thought I would show a couple pictures of a saw I found this morning. Looks to be a D 15. The medallion says PHILADA. I can see the VICTORY etching with the eagle over the Liberty Bell. It's a straight back panel saw. Quite a bit of the saw plate has been sharpened away. I'm not sure if the handle is rosewood or not. According to the Disstonian Institute site, it should be rosewood. Some of you saw experts might have a better idea on it though. I bought it for the handle, then I found out later that it is a victory saw so now I don't know if I should rob the handle off of it or not : (
Mike


----------



## Johnny7

*Yes*, it's rosewood.

*No*, I would never dismantle a perfectly good D15


----------



## BlasterStumps

> *Yes*, it s rosewood.
> 
> *No*, I would never dismantle a perfectly good D15
> 
> - Johnny7


Thanks Johnny7, I will leave it as is. I was looking close at the teeth. It could stand a very light touch up. First Disston saw that I have seen with the rosewood handle. Not sure I have seen very many with the nickel plated brass saw nuts either. Anyway, looks like I have another saw to find a spot for.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Blaster, I have a D95 from somewhere close to 1955 with rosewood handle. It'll last forever, that handle. Congrats on your find!


----------



## Johnny7

Blaster

Though the Disston 12 gets a lot of attention (and commands a high price), the D15/D115 was truly the flagship of the Disston fleet.

Here's a gratuitous shot of the handle of my 22" D115 (circa 1918)


----------



## BlasterStumps

Wow Johnny7, that is a nice saw. Looks like it has had minimal use and stored properly. Most of the saws I find look like they lived the last 70 years out in a woodshed with a badly leaking roof : ( Thanks for sharing the picture of it.
Mike


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Very nice Johnny. Here's the D-95's etch, plus rosewood handle. Filing tag still attached from the last time it was sharpened for "Joe" in 1979.


----------



## bearkatwood

got a walnut panel ready to head out today.


















A side note I have been working on a carving bench for my wife in Maple and Khaya with a tail vise as the main vise. You can everything with a tail vise so it seems a good fit, looks quirky but I think it will do what is needed.

















Have a wonderful day everyone.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Brian, nice work on both the panel saw and the workbench. You obviously have a good eye for detail. Nice, nice, nice. 
Mike


----------



## Johnny7

Smitty

Nice etch on the D-95 and great condition overall, from what I can see.

I'd forgotten that there was one year when they made them without those garishly-colored plastic handles.
That was 1955.

Can there be a greater dichotomy, than between plastic and rosewood?


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

> Smitty
> 
> Nice etch on the D-95 and great condition overall, from what I can see.
> 
> I d forgotten that there was one year when they made them without those garishly-colored plastic handles.
> That was 1955.
> 
> Can there be a greater dichotomy, than between plastic and rosewood?
> 
> - Johnny7


RE: dichotomy, you're onto something there. Very unexpected, finding the '55 variant was rosewood. I was amazed. Came as part of a stack of handsaws my son bought at auction for $1. I'm happy to have care of it now, it's a treasure to me even though it's not "golden age" disston.


----------



## BlasterStumps

> Smitty
> 
> Nice etch on the D-95 and great condition overall, from what I can see.
> 
> I d forgotten that there was one year when they made them without those garishly-colored plastic handles.
> That was 1955.
> 
> Can there be a greater dichotomy, than between plastic and rosewood?
> 
> - Johnny7


I've got all three variants of the "disstonite) handles. I've heard the colours make some woodworkers nauseus : )


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Brian, the handle on that saw of yours is incredible, just sayin'.


----------



## bearkatwood

Thank you guys. 
I am working on a top secret(not anymore) project with Patrick Edwards. If you haven't heard of him, he is a legend in veneering and he makes Old Brown Glue. He had this antique veneer saw made by some guy named J.J. Owen or at least that is what is stamped on it. Lie Nielsen made a handle to replicate the saw years back but there was an issue with the blade (PITA to make by the way) so hopefully I did a good enough job on it and he will sign off on me making them. If so that would be huge for me. 
The brown one is the antique, the finished maple is the LN one and mine is almost done, a little more shaping to go and attach the blade. 









It all started when I saw this picture and reached out to Freddy Roman about it and he told me who owned it.


----------



## JADobson

Very cool. I've never done any veneer work but would like too. I'd been eyeing the Grammercy veneer saw but didn't really care for its looks. This one though…!!!


----------



## theoldfart

Brian, I reached out to Patrice Lejuene who works with Patrick on a mitre saw I have. They were both generous with their time and comments.


----------



## bearkatwood

The finished saw.


----------



## donwilwol

it looks more like a mid evil weapon than a saw. Which of course makes it all the cooler!!


----------



## chrisstef

Sick work floatin around here fellas. Top notch stuff.

Bkat - whats the tooth geometry on that saw? I bet that was a lotta fun to figure out. (Sarcasm)


----------



## bearkatwood

I tried to file them at 30degrees to the plane of the cut, it could be perfected a bit I am sure. I tried using my toother to get it going and I think I might be able to if I jimmy rig it with a fence, but it was just as easy to eyeball it and cut them in by hand. I used a sharpy to mark out about 12-14 tpi roughly and then went after it. Hopefully I will get better because people are asking for them


----------



## BlasterStumps

I touched up the teeth on the D15 saw that I bought the other day and then gave it a try on a piece of pine. It cuts okay but I'm a bit confused as to why it is filed what it is. It is 7ppi crosscut. Is that a good thing for something like 2×4's? I cut a little piece of select pine 3/4" and it seems way too aggressive there. Like I say, it cuts okay but man, 7ppi crosscut? : ( 
Mike


----------



## DLK

The rule of thumb is to have 6-7 teeth in the cut at any time so 7ppi should be perfect for 4/4 lumber.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Anyone using a labeling system to help identify which saw is which as they rest in the till? If so, would you be willing to share some info on it. 
Mike


----------



## bandit571

Part of a clean the shop up day…









Saw is from last year's World's Longest Yard Sale…..5-1/2 ppi….









Owner had cut it way down…now about a toolbox size..









This is about the fourth saw for that file…had a spare handy..









Didn't need the jointer..this time…there is an overhead light available..









Spent the morning cleaning up the shop…and this saw needed a bit of work, anyway..


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

> Anyone using a labeling system to help identify which saw is which as they rest in the till? If so, would you be willing to share some info on it.
> Mike
> 
> - BlasterStumps


I was wasting a few ideas on 'saw marking' yesterday, specifically rip vs xcut as they are tilled. Interested to hear others' thoughts.


----------



## Brit

I know all my saws by the pattern of the grain and the sound they make as I tap the plate. Yeah right! Where are my specs already!


----------



## DLK

> Anyone using a labeling system to help identify which saw is which as they rest in the till? If so, would you be willing to share some info on it.
> Mike
> 
> - BlasterStumps


It is not what I would do, but once I "acquired" a saw that hat 11 point painted in white across the handle.
I might just label the saw til somehow.

I keep as few as possible user saws and I can easily recognize each.

I think its only 8 saws. 
3 backsaws (tenon, dovetail, gent)
2 rip (over 8 pt, under 8 pt)
2 cross-cut s (5pt, 11pt)
1 Docking saw.

Also coping saw, fret saw,  plane making saw, bow saws, etc.


----------



## TheFridge

If I had enough saws to get confused with I'd probably compartmentalize them by size, tooth count, purpose, whatev.


----------



## BlasterStumps

I've been thinking about a channel style holder for labels that would allow me to make changes when needed. I never leave things alone for long. Always messing with stuff. I need the labels because my memory is too short.


----------



## gargey

Got a couple of Bad Axe saws this weekend:


----------



## jmartel

> Very cool. I ve never done any veneer work but would like too. I d been eyeing the Grammercy veneer saw but didn t really care for its looks. This one though…!!!
> 
> - JADobson


You don't need a whole lot to get started. An X-acto knife works fine on the thin modern veneers we have. You just make 3-4 passes to get all the way through. The older thicker stuff is what required the saws shown. Then you will just need a veneer hammer if working with hot hide glue or some cauls and a couple large flat sheets of ply/mdf to spread the clamping pressure.


----------



## gargey

I'm really struggling with what kind of saw till design to go with.

I've seen many, but don't really love the looks of any.

Mine are hanging by their handles in my wall-mounted tool cabinet currently; this takes up too much space within the cabinet.

Thoughts? I've got one large handsaw, two panel saws, a large tenon saw, a carcase saw, a dovetail saw, a flush cut saw and a dozuki.


----------



## TheFridge

I keep my regular users (3 backsaws and 2 handsaws hanging under my bench. The rest are hanging on the wall out the way.


----------



## BlasterStumps

> I m really struggling with what kind of saw till design to go with.
> 
> I ve seen many, but don t really love the looks of any.
> 
> Mine are hanging by their handles in my wall-mounted tool cabinet currently; this takes up too much space within the cabinet.
> 
> Thoughts? I ve got one large handsaw, two panel saws, a large tenon saw, a carcase saw, a dovetail saw, a flush cut saw and a dozuki.
> 
> - gargey


Mine is somewhat like this one. Mine is not nearly as nicely built, however. Build it bigger than you need now!!!
http://lumberjocks.com/topics/43833


----------



## gargey

I'm leaning toward that method of "sawholding" since it seems pretty secure.

What I don't like about it is that is seems like even a pretty low energy lateral knock to the handle end would give a good chance of kinking a blade, given the lever arm.

I'm an ultra cautious type, but still don't like that aspect of it.


----------



## BlasterStumps

What is "sawholding"?


----------



## bandit571

Mine….


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

The very humble till on my shop wall holds saws that way, and kinking really isn't an issue. The slots can be slightly oversized (need to be to account for set at the toothline, really). It'd take a helluva knock to kink a saw blade in such a manner, unless it was a super thin blade.


----------



## gargey

It is a small village in Thailand renowned for its beauty and hairy blue tree crabs.



> What is "sawholding"?
> - BlasterStumps


----------



## bearkatwood

Oh that's a good one


----------



## BlasterStumps

> Oh that s a good one
> 
> - bearkatwood


 yes, that was a "good one" but, I was really interested in the term. I hadn't heard or seen it in reference to some sort of special till or whatever.


----------



## BlasterStumps

"gargey" my apologies for not reading the post you made correctly. I get it now. I didn't see that you used the word "that" in that post. I thought you had a till type that I did not know. Me bad. 
Mike


----------



## gargey

no worries, ha.


----------



## donwilwol

If you're gonna make a saw till you might as well make it like Bob's

http://lumberjocks.com/projects/190914


----------



## bearkatwood

Cheese and rice! Bob!! I haven't seen that. That won't be topped in some time to come, beautiful place to keep them cutters.


----------



## summerfi

Happy saws make happy sawyers. My saws appreciate their fancy home. The till is on overflow now though, so that's a problem in need of a remedy.


----------



## bearkatwood

That must be rough for you Bob, I would be happy to help. Just send me all the ones you don't want


----------



## summerfi

That's the problem, Brian. I want them all.


----------



## bearkatwood

I know.. I know. Me too


----------



## TheFridge

> Cheese and rice! Bob!! I haven t seen that. That won t be topped in some time to come, beautiful place to keep them cutters.
> 
> - bearkatwood


Well you can scratch "look at pics of the sweetest saw til ever" off of your bucket list


----------



## bearkatwood

No kidding, that thing is a masterpiece.


----------



## jmartel

Bob, you should make your next one entertainment center sized. You might have a good 6 months before it gets full again.


----------



## TheFridge

Yeah. But instead of a TV you have saws. And when you want to relax and unwind you open it and gaze upon the glory you have created and collected. Popcorn optional.


----------



## gargey

Eh, I was thinking something more refined.



> If you re gonna make a saw till you might as well make it like Bob s
> 
> http://lumberjocks.com/projects/190914
> 
> - Don W


----------



## TheFridge

Like MDF painted and distressed?


----------



## bearkatwood

Pallet furniture? or my old favorite, milk crates.


----------



## TheFridge

I just threw up in my mouth.


----------



## bearkatwood

Here this should make you feel better. 
Found this on Jim Bodes site









It is only $3,995


----------



## summerfi

I can make you one of those for $3,900 even.


----------



## bearkatwood

Now that's a bargain!


----------



## JethroBodean

Last summer I stumbled upon an estate sale and the sign out front said 'Tools'; so I thought what the heck and stopped. After rummaging around, I found several hand saws (with the plates all painted grey). After looking through them, I selected two Disstons. One was a D-8 crosscut with a good handle and a straight blade. The other one was a Rip, but I wasn't sure of the model (later I decided it might be a No 12), it had a wheat carved handle (with a damaged horn) and straight blade with a nib. I went to pay and the young lady told me she thought the paint on the saws made them look so nice. I thought, but didn't tell her, that I couldn't wait to get that paint stripped off.



















Well apparently I could wait because it took me 10 months to finally get around to them.

Based on something that Bob once posted I tried using Easy Off Oven spray on the handles. All I can say is thanks Bob that's a great tip.










Sadly once the paint came off, there wasn't a visible etch on either one. But still I have ended up with a couple of very usable Disston saws. The D-8 is stamped with a 6 but it had been re-toothed to 8ppi.



















I guess it's time to make some more sawdust.


----------



## Handtooler

Very nice buy. I'm sure they were very reasonable. The brass hardware is super. did you add new fasteners or are they the orignals. Repair of the horn is also super.


----------



## summerfi

Those look great Jeff. I wonder if the grey paint was primer someone applied in preparation for painting a scene on the saws. I'm glad you rescued them.


----------



## JethroBodean

The hardware is all original, just elbow grease and brass polish. The horn has not actually been repaired yet, future work. As far as reasonable goes, they were each marked $6, but at the cash box I was informed that everything was 1/2 off.

Yes I'm quite sure that it was primer. Some very confused people seem to find painted saws pretty! ;-) I usually use Electrolysis to remove rust from the plates.










Turns out to be a great way to remove paint too. It just lifted right off and then I just sprayed it with a garden hose to remove every bit of the grey.


----------



## TheFridge

> Here this should make you feel better.
> Found this on Jim Bodes site
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is only $3,995
> 
> - bearkatwood


Someone should tell them that peeing on your saws to clean them isn't actually a thing.


----------



## bearkatwood

I thought that was for jellyfish stings, works on saws too? Cool, I'll be right back  gotta run to the shop real fast.


----------



## donwilwol

> Here this should make you feel better.
> Found this on Jim Bodes site
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is only $3,995
> 
> - bearkatwood


I take it their are saw collectors in a completely different tax bracket than me!


----------



## bearkatwood

Must be some high falutin saw lovers out there, I sure ain't one.


----------



## JADobson

My wife texted to tell me that Brent Parkins just dropped off a freshly re-toothed and sharpened rip saw at my house this morning (ok, actually she said saw thingy). the next 7 hours of work are just going to drag on forever.


----------



## BlasterStumps

I liked the original beech handle that was on this cheapie saw but it was too small for my hand. I had a scrap of something I found in the trash bin at the guild meeting the other day, not sure what wood it is but it was big enough to cut a handle out of so I made one. It's not much better looking than the beech handle but it is far more comfortable to hold onto.


----------



## RWE

I was rust hunting in LA on Friday. LA is our regional term for "Lower Alabama". I was down at Gulf Shores and hit a few antique dealers in Foley AL. Slim pickings, but I did pick up a Disston Monarch #2 Saw Set ($12). I examined the set, had no magnifying glass and did not know what it was until I got it back and searched the internet. So I was wondering if anyone uses or has used a #2 Disston Monarch.

I liked the anvil size and the fact that you could adjust the depth of the anvil in relation to the top of the teeth. How you control the set depth is still a mystery to me, but I will practice with it on some RIP saws that I need to reset to a heavier set.

My go to saw set is a Stanley 42x so I may or may not utilize the Monarch after I figure it out. *Just wanted to see if anyone had an informed opinion about it.*

https://www.google.com/search?q=disston+monarch+%232+saw+set&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=satPQWqiy-peoM%253A%252CHnRbzp8ILQT2tM%252C&usg=_tEdWQem-w6AMRyM34G5WYVVSgiM%3D&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiPqLuvhYTbAhUEVa0KHfruD2QQ9QEIMTAD#imgrc=satPQWqiy-peoM::


----------



## summerfi

I have no experience with the Disston set, but I always wondered if they were any good. I kind of assumed that since no one talks about them much that they probably weren't.


----------



## RWE

LOL Summerfi. That thought also crossed my mind. However it is pretty neat about how you can adjust the anvil striking point up or down in relation to the top of the teeth. I spend a lot of time getting precisely lined up on the point of the tooth with that Stanley, so being able to drop the contact point a bit seems like a good idea. Unless I am flooded with a lot of comments about how great the Disston is, I will post again after trying it out. For $12 I don't feel too bad if it stinks in use because it is definitely a cool looking little tool and it seems to be in great working order. I have the Somax for the fine toothed saws, the 42X and what I figure is a Handyman set, with a numbered dial, that has a horrible action. So I am not saw set rich. Hopefully the Disston will be a decent user.


----------



## Tim457

I kind of thought the same thing but since Disston was so serious and competitive about their saws, it stands to reason that their saw sets were good too. Definitely let us know how it goes. I have a Disston crosscut saw tool that seems to be of good quality and well regarded.


----------



## Johnny7

*1 page instructions for the Monarch*

http://members.acmenet.net/~con12a/saw%20set%20website/sharpen.htm


----------



## bearkatwood

I found an acme saw filer in an auction in LA but I don't think they would ship it.









The Auction link

Not sure of it's condition, but if you lived near you might want to take a look at it.


----------



## RWE

Wrong LA. The LA I mentioned was an attempt at humor: "Lower Alabama" ie: LA. The Acme filer is in Los Angeles. Maybe some other Lumberjocks members are near there. Price looks right if it could be made to work.


----------



## bandit571

Still haven't found out who used this bolt pattern..









Nor any info on this saw…









Cleaned up nicely enough..


----------



## bearkatwood

No offense to the people who live there, but that L.A. is the wrong LA too. I like southern California, but Los Angeles is a nasty mess. So apparently that item is no longer for sale. I have been searching every morning and that just popped up even though it has been over for a week or so.


----------



## bandit571

Second saw is a 10ppi, skew back









Has a large Eagle in the Warranted Superior medallion….holes match the plate ones…









Bolts seem to be plated brass..









Handle is not a "cover top" model. Might take the time to replace that missing piece..

No etch was found amongst the pits


----------



## bearkatwood

Talking about setters made me want to pull out the bunch I have to see if I had the monarch you were talking about. Looks like I might. I also have a triumph I have yet to try out as part of a lot I bought off ebay last year. I need to try these out and see if I like using them as much as that bemaco  doubtful, but you never know.

I found a few new friends the other day at a local antique store. I have yet to restore one and be happy with it, maybe one of these will work out well.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Your friends have potential, Brian!

Gargey's saw till topic got me thinking about mine.










I can do better than this throwtogether. Something that looks more like the Not Wall Hung or Inspiration Piece. But it's got to fit here, and I'm not even sure I'd want doors on it.


----------



## bearkatwood

That is a nice till, looks like you could use a few more of them though.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

> ... looks like you could use a few more of them though.
> 
> - bearkatwood


That's certaily a true statement, there are saws everywhere, more that I need. Maybe I shoukd start there.


----------



## summerfi

Smitty, this isn't a knock on your current saws, but if you have lots of saws then maybe start by doing some upgrading. Turn 2 or 3 saws into one nicer one. By nicer I mean quality old (pre-1900) saws in good condition. I don't see any brass backs in there. An old tool lover like yourself deserves the best saws. Upgrading is an ever continuing process for me.


----------



## DanKrager

Smitty, I kinda like the looks of that "temporary" case with front curves and all. I immediately thought of a tambour door that one pushes up. Could be left open for display, but closed keeps the dust out. Thank you for the idea. Might do that on one I have to rebuild.

DanK


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Thanks for the inputs, the wheels are turning…


----------



## bandit571

OK, worked a while….finding parts of an etch on that 3 bolt WS 10 ppi skew back saw…Underneath what LOOKS like a N O 50 ( or 58) there is an A R ( A A ?) ( R R ?) Off to the right of this is what looks like a set of Railroad crossbucks….

BTW: the bolt pattern on the plate matches the holes in the handle.


----------



## bandit571

Ok..found a $4 saw that I can ID all by meself..









This 10ppi saw used to have a nib….









Handle has seen better days….I tried to shine up the nuts..









Handle has seen better days…..









Large Eagle…Henry Disston ….PHILA…and the saw even has a readable etch…








Same garage had a WS rip saw..$5









And is a 5-1/2ppi…









26" long…both of them. $9 for today….tool wise.


----------



## RWE

Large Eagle…Henry Disston ….PHILA, Great find for $4. Congratulations.


----------



## bandit571

Got out the Sherlock Holmes Glass…there be a "7" stamped under the Henry Disston stamp on the saw plate….as in a No. 7….hmmm…


----------



## FoundSheep

Nice find Bandit!


----------



## Mosquito

I inherited another couple saws from my great or great great grandfather this past weekend. This time from my grandpa's younger brother. We stopped by their place for desserts and to get the scoop on his sister who was not doing well earlier. He asked if I would take some of the old tools, because he had no one else he knew would appreciate them.

Now I need another saw til, as I've got 5 such saws, and my saw til is full and a half already…


----------



## bearkatwood

sounds rough Mos. Do you have plans for a nice till?


----------



## Mosquito

I'm not sure yet. I've got a fair selection of tools from a few generations before me. I've been thinking about a wall-hung to centralize them all in one place, but I haven't decided yet


----------



## bandit571

New (to me) tripod for the camera…free-handed camera work doesn't do too well..








Haven't found the "Macro" button on the camera…yet…









Why is that one bolt a little smaller than the rest?










About as good as I can get. There is a faint, fancy "7" under the stamp….then off to the right a bit, is an "ED".

Thinking that might be part of "WARRANTED"?


----------



## bearkatwood

Those pictures turned out really clean and nice, tripods are helpful things. Cool old saw, I am currious about that smaller bolt as well.


----------



## summerfi

It is common on older Disstons for that screw head and nut to be smaller diameter. Probably has to do with the way the handle narrows down there.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Congratulations Bandit on a nice find. Are you planning to fix it up or leave as is?


----------



## kwigly

Common for old English split nut saws to have that smaller screw at the nose of the handle, a tradition that Henry would've been aware of. Mainly done for aesthetics I think (like the nib )


----------



## bandit571

Haven't decided on what to do with that saw….

Rip saw is now cleaned up









Sharpened up..








About about ready for work. Might be 100 years younger, though…


----------



## BlasterStumps

I found a baby brother to Bandit's 7. Don't have any idea what brand it is. The only thing I have seen so far on the blade is "300". I gave $3 for it. I'll have to see if I can fix the handle. Looks like someone tried to tighten the bottom saw nut and it split there.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Something I noticed on the small saw is that the saw plate appears to have been heavily blued. You can kind of see it in the pictures. I have seen some sash saws that were blued but can't remember seeing a hand saw that was. Probably more common than I think.


----------



## summerfi

Blaster, the process of bluing is an oxidizing process. I've seen a number of saws that were oxidized such that you would swear they had been blued, but it was just normal oxidation. I don't know what makes some of them turn blue instead of rusting, but they do. That's not to say your saw hasn't been blued. It may have, or it may just be blue oxidation. I just find it interesting that sometimes spring steel turns blue instead of rust red.

That said, the Disston 1918 catalog lists one saw in the "Special Saws Etched To Order" section that is blued. They called it the Blue Jacket. I had one of these saws brought to me for sharpening a couple years ago, and the bluing had mostly worn off.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Good information Bob, thank you. I've been thinking I might make a wall-hanger out of the little saw. It's interesting. I picked it originally because I wanted the saw nuts. Probably leave it alone though.
Mike


----------



## CFrye

> I picked it originally because I wanted the saw nuts. Probably leave it alone though.
> Mike
> 
> - BlasterStumps


I can't count the number of times I've done that!


----------



## summerfi

I picked up this saw plate today for $1. I could see it was a good saw, but since there was no visible etch, I couldn't tell who made it.










I thought maybe it was a Disston, but I've never seen the number 12 stamped beneath the handle on a Disston.










I got it home and sanded the etch area lightly. A worn but still readable etch popped out that says No. 10, Vernon & Co., with no location listed.










I figured Vernon & Co. was a hardware store, so I tried googling them. What I found instead is that Vernon & Co. was one of the brand names used by Monhagen Saw Works of Middletown, NY, the company that produced Wheeler, Madden & Bakewell, and later Wheeler, Madden & Clemson saws. But who was Vernon? It is a fact that many British and American saw makers used names of family members and employees for some of their secondary brands. It turns out that Vernon was the maiden name of Josiah Bakewell's wife, Mary Ann. So there you have a little bit of saw trivia. Now I need to make a new handle for this saw.

Edit: Here is a picture of the No. 10 Vernon & Co. saw from the 1871 Wheeler,Madden & Clemson catalog. Now at least I know what the handle looked like. Interesting it was made from walnut. I've seen walnut used on other second line saws with steel side plates.


----------



## DLK

*Bob* will you do all that? I mean make a handel for $1 plate as exactly as possible. Actually because you have the handle outline and bolt holes on the saw plate, you could enlarge the catalog picture until it fits your $1 saw plate .


----------



## TheFridge

Do it Bob. I am an enabler as well.


----------



## summerfi

Don, I will definitely make a new handle for the plate because it's a good plate that will clean up nicely with no pitting. The $1 I paid doesn't equate to the actual value, especially after it has a nice handle. I'm sure I could sell the saw after the plate is cleaned up and a new handle installed for upwards of $50 and probably closer to $100. I don't particularly care for the steel side plates, so I may not make a handle like the original, but a nicer one. I won't be doing it soon though, so I have plenty of time to think about it.


----------



## bandit571

Turned my ose up at a saw saturday…..it was a D-8 thumbhole 5ppi…..handle was nice..plate had more kinks than Hustler Magazine….$10? ah,...no.

Same place had two mitre boxes with saws…..rust buckets, $25 for the pair…both were the size one below what I already have IN the shop….passed.

Why do they always have good Village wide yard sales..when I don't have a pocket full of cash…..


----------



## summerfi

Bandit, at least you have tools in your yard sales. I went to probably 25 yard sales in a large neighborhood event on Saturday and all I found was an adze head.


----------



## bandit571

Same town has the entire Labor Day weekend as a Tractor Fest/ yard sale event….lots of tool dealers show up….


----------



## BlasterStumps

Bob, 
I think it is way cool that the Vernon & Co saw still has the nib on the plate. At least I think I can see it in the picture. 
The little 20" saw I found still has one. How did they survive all the years?!!
Mike


----------



## bandit571

Some saws were better taken care of, than others..









I have two of these No. 7…both have almost a full sized plate









Both with nibs..









Afraid this one, and it's "twin" are about 50 years newer than my latest No.7….


----------



## summerfi

A lot of old saws are missing their nib, but fortunately it's a simple matter to file a new one on. Since the nibs weren't a standard distance from the toe, you really can't tell.


----------



## Brit

...except that you've told us now Bob, so we all know.


----------



## chrisstef

I think a curly maple inlay in the shape of the steel side plate would be a killer look Bob. Just sayin.

Andy!!


----------



## bandit571

I think that the "new" No. 7 needs a better home than I can give it…not set up to do a proper restore on saws like that. IF it can find a good home, where it can be restored to it's 1848 glory…make an offer…I'd need to figure out postage…as I won't be able to disassemble it…Will have some 1/2" plywood to stiffen the box with….

PM details….


----------



## summerfi

PM sent, Bandit.


----------



## JayT

Bob, anything you can tell me about this little thing I picked up today? Disston Keystone K5, 16in long. I can find references to the Keystone line and the K5, but not really anything specific about the 16in. Was there a purpose that size was designed for?


----------



## summerfi

Jay, Disston made most of their saws in a variety of lengths. The shorter lengths were usually referred to as tool box saws. Saws in the budget priced Keystone line were considered utility saws and designed for home owners, farmers, students, etc. The short length was in keeping with this utility philosophy.


----------



## JayT

Thanks, Bob. It was such a cute little thing and I can see several possible uses, so couldn't pass it up for $3.


----------



## donwilwol

> PM sent, Bandit.
> 
> - summerfi


I see some 1848 glory coming!!


----------



## ErikF

A set of saws I just finished up. Two panels, a small tenon, and a 10" dovetail. Both panel saws are taper ground. Brown ebony handles.

I never got into restoration but that eagle medallion saw is legit.


----------



## summerfi

Those are sweet Eric. Love that ebony.


----------



## gargey

I'm considering doors or some kind of cover to help deal with dust and rust, also.



> Your friends have potential, Brian!
> 
> Gargey s saw till topic got me thinking about mine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can do better than this throwtogether. Something that looks more like the Not Wall Hung or Inspiration Piece. But it s got to fit here, and I m not even sure I d want doors on it.
> 
> - Smitty_Cabinetshop


----------



## chrisstef

Tambour ^


----------



## bandit571

Bob, looks like a Mr. Richardson and a Farmer will be along with Mr. Disston….as soon as I get the cash for postage…have to wait on Uncle Sugar's Army to send me the monthly retirement check….


----------



## summerfi

Sounds good Bandit. I'm in no hurry.


----------



## TheFridge

Found this shear










In our old flooded Maintenance shop. Never will I use tin snips again. Hardly any deflection after cutting. I just saved myself hours of work straightening 

Now I can take all 9 plates and the rest of my parts and get them lasered at once. I've been putting off everything because I didn't want to make a bunch of trips to get stuff lasered. Not any mo.


----------



## putty

Nice Fridge…
keep your D!ck out fo there!!


----------



## summerfi

I'd love to have one of those Fridge. What size/capacity is it.


----------



## TheFridge

Well putty, the guard stops 2" from the blade so that makes it impossible 

No lie Bob. I'm tickled that I have unfettered access to one. 4-5'ish and 15ga (.070) max. Gonna see if it'll shear a scrap handsaw plate next time I'm there. I'm sure the capacity is somewhat reduced when cutting hardened steel.

6- .015 plates. Very little straightening needed. I flipped the top one over to show how little it deflected.


----------



## summerfi

I don't think it will have a problem with handsaw plate, Fridge. I've cut 0.040 spring steel on my 8" hand shear. It maxed it out, but no damage resulted. I would suggest checking the blades to see if they need sharpening.


----------



## ErikF

That's a good looking shear. I have to do a full body jump to cut .042" at the stomp. Maybe eat some McDonald's ahead of time.


----------



## TheFridge

I have a 250lb helper just in case 

I'll check next time around. It actually hasn't been used much. The shop was fairly new when the flood hit in 2016 and has been rarely used since. Hence the rust and what not. Hell. They have a brand new cabinet saw and planer that was delivered just before the flood. Just sitting there.

I was worried about tearing but it fairly zipped through it. When in use.


----------



## BlasterStumps

My wife took me junk shopping today. We did okay, me thinks. 
Set of auger bits:









Carcass saw, Disston No 4 "Phila" 

















Mitre saw, Made by Disston "Philada" with Goodell Pratt etch, 28" toothline.

















Stanley 42X saw set
Goodell Pratt 209 saw set.


----------



## theoldfart

MMMMM, nice RJ's and an early Goodell mitre saw. Quite a haul.


----------



## BlasterStumps

tof, With this mitre saw, I think I finally found a one worthy of sending out to get sharpened. It's very sharp as is but it sure does have cows and calves bad. I would guess it has only been sharpened once or twice before. It works with my Wards Mitre box even though I would need to adjust the box for a 4-3/4" saw plate. I don't see so good these days so don't know if I will tackle sharpening a 28" toothline. : (


----------



## TheFridge

> MMMMM, nice RJ s and an early Goodell mitre saw. Quite a haul.
> 
> - theoldfart


My thoughts exactly.

When I attempted to sharpen my miter saw I cheated and didn't sharpen the unused teeth.


----------



## bandit571

Yard sale find today…he wanted $10..without the saw..got it for $7 WITH the saw..









Saw has a "Popular Mechanics" silk screened on the plate…haven't found any makers mark on the box….Stanley?

Also picked a Jack plane…for $1.35..









One of those days..I guess..


----------



## theoldfart

Blaster, send it out to Bob Summerfield. You won't be sorry. He's done three of my mitre saws and they work almost without effort. Can't say enough about the quality of his work.


----------



## BlasterStumps

I sharpened all of those auger bits this evening. Turns out one is Russell Jennings and the other 13 are James Swan, "Superior Cast Steel" bits. No rust to deal with. Coarse thread lead screws. Love it.

Both of the saws we got today are sharp and cut well except the No 4 carcass saw needs more set. I might pick a day when my eyesight is better and give it a go for sharpening and setting the teeth. As it is, it would work okay for cutting dovetails.


----------



## RWE

I've got to ask. How much did the auger bits set you back. I have been collecting Jennings bits. You see them from time to time at flea markets and antique malls. It would be nice to have a complete set like that. The Swan bits seem to be the same style as a Jennings, two bevels/cutters instead of one. I will have to research James Swan I guess and see what info there is about that brand.

Seems to me that you had a great day. I love my Stanley 42x sawset. If you didn't already have one, you will like it.


----------



## BlasterStumps

I gathered up the bits, the two saws, and two saw sets and asked the shop keeper what he had to have for all of it. He said $75 so I wrote out a check for that amount. I figure somewhere close to $35 went for the bits. The bits came in the original box but I think I might re-make it. It's not in good shape.

I do have two other Stanley 42X sets and do like them. One I just worked over to make the face of the plunger a bit narrower for use on smaller teeth. Out of the three, that one is my favourite.

I'm anxious to learn about the Goodell Pratt set. I need to find an instruction sheet on it. I think it will be a good tool to have.


----------



## BlasterStumps

I'm not coming up with any info on the Goodell saw set that I got the other day. Not much online about that tool that I can find. I was hoping to find out how to use the button head piece that is on the underside and apparently presses against the saw plate. Anyone use one before? It is a 206 Goodell.


----------



## summerfi

Mike, here's the patent for your Goodell saw set. Perhaps that will help.

http://hus-boringt.wkfinetools.com/GoodellPratt/hist-GBrothers/GTC-0,984,478-SawSet/0,984,478-SawSet.asp


----------



## BlasterStumps

Fantastic Bob! Thank you. That will help a lot.
Mike


----------



## bandit571

Had to use that rip saw that I was going to send out Montana way..









Two handed grip was a bit tight…seemed to work..









I also used the Richardson Brothers saw as a cross cut saw today….kind of wiggles in the cut…


----------



## RWE

Blaster: Back to the auger bits post. I had a lead on a saw at a local flea mall and found a couple of bits. One of them that I thought was a Jennings turned out to be a Swan. Not worth posting a picture, but I did the research and saw that Swan was licensed to do the Jennings pattern bits and a couple of other companies were also licensed. I thought that was quite a coincidence that I had read your post and a couple of days later I see the first Swan Jennings bit. Got it for $2. I have it cleaned, next to sharpen it.

The saw lead was good but the saw was too far gone for the price. It was the second #16 Disston at the same location, but the plate had a curve, the teeth were recut to about 6 PPI Rip and the toe of the plate was had about an inch left on it. I was going to get it and cut it down to a panel, because the handle was really sweet, but I did not think it was worth $30 for all the work that I would have to put in it.


----------



## BlasterStumps

I had fun re-making the box for the bits I bought. I used 3/4" wood to build the box so it makes putting all those bits in there a tight squeeze. Anyway, they do fit, barely.


----------



## Tim457

That was quick, nicely done.


----------



## RWE

Ok, been rust hunting this morning and came up with what is so far an unidentified model # Atkins floor saw. There is a #100 floor saw that shows up in the catalogs. It however has a much different handle and is not a backsaw.

The back on the one I found is 15 inches long. The teeth seem to be about 12 PPI and the plate is straight, teeth look good.



























Any Atkins experts out there that know about this one. I checked the catalogs (http://atkinssaws.blogspot.com/) for 1919, 1937, 1950.

It seems to me that this must be a post 1950 model, but by the looks of it, I would have put it in the 30's 40's. Maybe I need a later catalog.

I don't believe in etches any more. Never find them. They must be a myth. Will soak it and see.

Anyone ever see this model before??


----------



## theoldfart

It looks like a modified mitre saw to me.


----------



## RWE

I am coming around to that opinion as well. The radius is well cut and the teeth are perfect, so I was thinking it was a manufactured model. However, nothing in the catalogs that show a floor saw with a back. I have never paid any attention to floor saws, so this is giving me a bit of an educational moment.


----------



## summerfi

Agree with Kevin.


----------



## bearkatwood

I finally got the surface grinder I have been eyeballing and it works great. I have two large plate hand saws I am going to try it on for tapering to see if it does as good a job on that as it does shining them up.


----------



## rk5n

I bid on a rusty saw on ebay for cheap. It has a Warranted Superior medallion with a Patented Dec 21, 1869, split nuts and a handle similar shape to me Disston No-8 (not the D-8). Can anyone identify the etch? I can only make out "IE & Co" and the number 12. Tried the gun blue method but it didn't help.


----------



## summerfi

rk5n, I suspect it is a Spier & Co. saw, which was a secondary brand of Wheeler, Madden & Clemson. There is some information in this link. Your saw has a little different etch, so it may be an earlier or later model than the one in the link.


----------



## rk5n

That appears to be a match! The scroll work is spot on and that also explains the Warranted Superior medallion.

Here's another of mine, but this one I know what it is. Disston #76, it seems like this is a rare model for Disston. Found at a flea market for $5. Right next to a R Groves that I also bought


----------



## RWE

Back to the floor saw post a few replies earlier. Assuming the saw is a modified backsaw and the length of the back is not modified (15 inches), the plate is 3/64 thick. My Stanley 358 saws (28 inch mitre saws are 3/64 thick). I have two Disston tenon saws (12 inches in length 1/32 thick plate). At what point is a backsaw a sash or carcasse saw and at what point is the thicker plate starting to be utilized.

My guess is that a carcasse or sash might have the thicker plate, but I don't have one to check the thickness on. I know the categories overlap, but I was just wondering from a historical point of view, were sash and carcasse saws thicker plated than say a tenon saw. Anyone have one and a digital caliper? Inquiring minds want to know.

It may well be that someone chopped a longer mitre saw to make my Frankensaw Floor saw, but I was thinking of putting a replacement plate in it and want to know what is "proper" for a 15 inch length saw.

Anyone have a good link to a site that discusses the difference types of backsaws.


----------



## summerfi

rk5n, that's a good find on the No. 76. You don't see them very often, and that one appears to be in good shape.

Roger, saw plates are usually measured in thousandths of an inch. 3/64 is 0.047". I've never measured a miter saw plate, but having sharpened many of them, I'd say they are about the same thickness as a full size handsaw. Those are typically around 0.040 - 0.042 at the toothline, so 3/64 is a good approximation. Regarding backsaw plate thickness, the thickness varies with the size/type of saw. A 10" dovetail saw will be around 0.018", up to a 16" tenon saw that will be around 0.025 to 0.028".

The types of backsaws, in order of size, are as follows, although there are exceptions.
gent's < dovetail < carcase < sash < tenon

As an aside, I find it amusing what some people call a tenon saw. I've seen them referred to as tennon, tennan, tenant, tendon, tenor, and maybe a few others. I'd guess these people don't know what a tenon is.


----------



## bearkatwood

So the metabo doohickey was a hit. It shined up the plates and did a marvelous job on a double taper. The streaks you see are my rust inhibitor wiped on. 
Took about 30 minutes per plate to taper and it was pretty accurate. Not going to turn out as nice as some those oldies you guys are showing off, but I am having fun with this set. Still have a gent to add to it.


----------



## TheFridge

Brian, you make handsaws out of rolled stock?

Edit: just remembered maybe you bob and Eric talking about cutting the bands off and how scurry it is.


----------



## bearkatwood

It can get harry, I used Eriks method of using a knife on a stick and I took video of it. I may try to get it on here.
I use .042 rolls of the 1095 tempered stock.


----------



## ErikF

Brian,

Is heat a problem when doing the taper grind?


----------



## bearkatwood

The grinder can slow down so much that it barely got hot at all and I kept stopping to blow it off with compressed air whenever it felt at all warm. I am ordering some more aggressive belts to use for it. The flap wheel that it comes with actually cools it as it goes. 
I had someone ask me a question and I couldn't think of the answer, maybe one of you know. The taper from the toothline to the back makes sense, so it won't get caught in the kerf, but why the taper from back to front?


----------



## DanKrager

I've never heard of a sawblade tapered from back to front. Haven't even seen one! Would it be possibly for steering the cut some? That can be done in one plane with the other taper just by leaning the blade against one wall of the cut.

DanK


----------



## bearkatwood

I am guessing when people talk of the double taper, they are just saying that it is tapered on either side, but there has been many instances I have heard of the plate tapering from back to front as well, this may be because of the shape of the blade.



























I am a novice and self taught when it comes to saw making, besides the wonderful advice I have been given by experienced saw makers on forums such as this one and private conversations, I would have no idea how to do this. My query into the double taper may seem juvenile in regards to someone who is well versed in it, I would just like to know more on the history of it's implementation; they why's of the multi directional taper vs. a straight upwards taper.


----------



## donwilwol

A pure guess, but I would imagine the thinner top front would help with binding in a deep cut.


----------



## summerfi

Brian, I can think of three likely reasons for the taper pattern on old saws.
1. Stiffness - leaving the plate the original thickness across the heel end would help keep the plate stiff as well as stiffen the plate-handle connection.
2. Balance - Leaving more material on the heel end moves the center of gravity rearward and lightens the toe end, making the saw easier to handle and preventing fatigue when sawing for a living all day.
3. Grindstone shape - Disston, and presumably others, used large circular grindstones. It just made sense to grind a circular taper pattern on the plates. Not grinding at the heel also gave them a place to hang onto the plate while grinding it.


----------



## TheFridge

I'm the opposite. I've always heard of it being tapered in both directions and not just one.


----------



## bearkatwood

As always Bob I think you nailed it. I agree with your assertions, they just seem to make logical sense. I have always heard, like Fridge, it was tapered in multiple directions, which I never really stopped to consider why. Then someone asked me and I was left with "because that's how they used to do it" for an answer. But I think I have a better bead on it now. I agree that balance would be a great benefit to tapering toward the toe.


----------



## bearkatwood

CRUD!! TGIF.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Oh No Brian! What happened? Did you drop it?


----------



## summerfi

I received a vintage Tyzack dovetail saw in the mail today that was broken just about like your saw Brian. It came all the way from England and was broken in transit. It sucks.


----------



## TheFridge

That makes hulk angry.


----------



## bearkatwood

It happens, trying to fit a new handle to a plate that is drilled already is tricky.


----------



## TheFridge

a thinking emoji would be perfect here.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Looks like Brian's handle will glue up without too much problem. Hope your's will too Bob. I would try to put them back together if they were mine. Best of luck with them.
Mike


----------



## donwilwol

Well that's just sad !!


----------



## Tim457

Brian, I have a lot of fun with an angle grinder so I think that metabo would be fun to use too. Getting tapered saw plates again after the demise of hand saw manufacturing is pretty cool.

Who said they had been sent a roll of stock that was too thick to use for handsaws? I think it would be fun to make a pit saw since those are nearly impossible to find in the wild.


----------



## donwilwol

A little help from anyone who may know. the stamp ( it's not an etch) says Cornell Willis & Co
There maybe "wood & co" under Willis in the arch. Maybe it got stamped over or maybe there was another line.
There is a number 5 stamped in the center

Double Refined Spring Steel
Warranted

And 3 stars circle the logo.

I have Schaffer's book and Barley's but couldn't find anything.


----------



## donwilwol

Here are the before pictures. It wouldn't let be put them together.


----------



## Holbs

Don..that is a great restoration. I have yet to read through the other 15,000 replies here to take a gander at other restorations (would take a full day to read all posts here, which I'll have to do since getting into saws more frequently). That handle is…interesting. Never seen anything like it. It sits so….low and high angled.


----------



## bandit571

English style handle?


----------



## donwilwol

Thanks Holds. I don't typically do saws, but this one kind of spoke to me.


----------



## bearkatwood

sexy saw, nice find.


----------



## summerfi

Don, that saw is a great find. Cornell Willis & Co. was a hardware store at 38 Cortlandt in New York (reference 1850-51 NY City Directory). By 1866 the name had changed to Cornell, Willis, Carey & Co. so your saw was made before that date (reference 1866 NY Merchant's Directory). Saws having 3 stars on the plate were typically of New York origin. The handle shape and screws are the same as typically used by the saw makers at Sing Sing prison, so I expect that is where your saw was made. Excellent acquisition!


----------



## summerfi

Don, see this reference on backsaw.net. Your saw may have been made by Cortland Wood & Co at Sing Sing for Cornell Willis.
http://www.backsaw.net/forum/index.php?threads/alternatives-to-the-three-crowns-willmott.363/


----------



## donwilwol

Facebook fellers knew

It is definitely a New York made saw. They liked using stars around the die stamp. It has all the characteristics of one made at Sing Sing prison, domed steel nuts and what appears to be a Cuban mahogany handle. 1850s handle style.

It is listed in the 1850 New York city directory as hardware merchants. They probably had the saw made for them at Sing Sing.

Note the 1847 Directory lists "Cornell Brothers" as hardware dealers, and the1865 directory lists them as "Cornell, Willis & Carey", so that brackets the probable date for "Cornell Willis & Co and their saw.


----------



## donwilwol

I missed your first post Bob. Thanks


----------



## chrisstef

Thats an awesome find Don. Imagine Sing Sing in the 1850's.


----------



## TheTurtleCarpenter

I heard the fellas at Sing-Sing occasionally made metal cutting saws.


----------



## bearkatwood

WOOHOO! I just won an auction with an acme saw filer with the base, a foley filer and an ACME circular saw filer on a base. Just have to swing down and pick them up. Totally stoked. Got it all for $220


----------



## theoldfart

That's something between illegal and immoral. What steal, congrats Brian.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Wow Brian! You will have fun with that. Congrats. 
Mike


----------



## gargey

Bearkat, you got a saw into finewoodworking magazine, then decided to stop making saws?

Then decided to buy serious saw-filing equipment?

Dr Jekyll/Mr Hyde thing going on here?


----------



## theoldfart

What's the bet he's back at saw making within the month?


----------



## bearkatwood

I know, I am confusing. The orders were getting to be too much so I needed to dial it back, plus I want to teach next year. I will still be making saws, probably just not as many custom orders and more ready made orders. No pressure on those. My stress glands are over heating with the queue I currently have. The new toys should help things go faster. hopefully.


----------



## TheFridge

And you like girls. As we all know, girls = time x money. Dudes on the other hand…


----------



## BlasterStumps

Well guys, I did it. I'm so embarrassed and upset with myself, and can only hope in sharing this information that it might persuade someone else not to make this same mistake. This was a bad saw day…

Although I had been advised to send my saws to Montana, my resulting efforts in trying to save shipping costs have cost me dearly. Here's my story…

I found some really nice saws lately and because of my vision issues, I looked for someone local to touch up the teeth on them and so I found a "Saw Sharpening Service" locally. I took four saws to this guy and talked at length with him about what I wanted him to do and discussed how he was going to go about it. He even showed me the filing process he was going to use. All was good. I left and 2 days later got his call to say they were ready.

I went down to his shop to pick them up. At the very first glance at the saws sitting there in a pile, I instantly knew I had made a terrible mistake taking my saws to him.

If you remember a few days back, I showed a picture of the near mint Disston #4 saw that I recently found. It had probably only been sharpened one time and had a full plate. By far the nicest Disston backsaw that I have ever found. Well here are a couple pictures before and after he had at it.
before:








after:








I about fell on the floor when I saw what he had done. He told me it caught in his machine so he had to cut the blade, twice. WHAT!!!! He took 3/4" off the blade and then left me with broken teeth and the worst sharpening job I have ever seen.

Okay, so that was heart breaking to say the least but then…

I had recently picked up a near mint Disston rip saw that was filed 5 1/2. I was having a tough time trying to touch up the teeth so I took it to him as one of the four saws. I explained that all I wanted was to have them touched up. Here is what he gave me back:


















I don't know about you but, I have never seen anyone mess up the teeth on a handsaw this bad ever. I think he filed them like circular saw blade teeth.

Have you experienced a time when you hit instant boiling point? I knew instantly that I was going to blow my top and I also knew I had to hurry and get out of there. I had to talk to myself very strongly. I made the mistake, there was no one to blame but myself. I quickly paid the bill, grabbed the saws, put them in the truck and got the heck away from there. I was so angry over it that I walked around talking very badly and banging my head against the wall for at least 20 minutes after I got back to my shop.

Its been the better part of a week and I am still very upset over my stupidity. I'm hoping that sharing this will help me loose some of the anger over it.

I've been telling myself, saws are just material things so I need to let it go. I am trying hard to do that. It's hard though to forgive yourself for being so stupid.

What advice can I give concerning this, well, I'd have to say what ever you decide on how to go about things, weigh the consequences if things don't go as planned.


----------



## donwilwol

You have way more restaint than I do. I quite sure one of use would have been bleeding before I left.


----------



## bearkatwood

That person had no business sharpening a saw, I have had to recut a row of teeth a few times and it took at most 3/8" off the plate which is huge. 3/4" is unacceptable. Sorry to hear he messed up your good find. It really is worth the shipping to send your saws off to someone who will treat them with the same reverence you have.


----------



## chrisstef

Whoa. Thats butchered in every sense of the word, blaster. Youve got a real long dovetail saw now lol.

The good news is that plates can be replaced or repaired …. But not by that guy.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Yesterday, I got real sick of looking at the little saw with it's horrible sharpening job, grabbed a file and converted the teeth to rip cut which at the same time allowed me to get rid of some but not all of the mess. It might as well be filed rip because as you say, it's more a dovetail saw now.



> Whoa. Thats butchered in every sense of the word, blaster. Youve got a real long dovetail saw now lol.
> 
> The good news is that plates can be replaced or repaired …. But not by that guy.
> 
> - chrisstef


----------



## chrisstef

It'll all come out in the wash brother. It sucks but its just steel. On the bright side, Now youll have enough saw length to gang cut dovetails. I find a 10" saw too short when ive got two 3/4" boards together cutting tails.

Or it would be a good saw to use with a bench hook if ya go back to xcut.

And you can go back on the rust trail for a tenon saw.

Lemonade.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Question for you guys with Foley equipment: On a Foley 387 automatic sharpener, could the carrier for sharpening hand saws be made easily enough or is it something that needs to be original from the manufacturer?
Mike


----------



## bearkatwood

Do you have all the measurements needed to reproduce the carrier bar? I wouldn't think that would be too tough as long as you had the correct measurements for the holes that attach the ratchet bar. Those would be tougher to make, if you had a cnc would be the best I would think for that. I can take pictures and get measurements for you if like on the carrier bar and ratchet bar.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Thanks Brian. If you can, pictures and measurements would be nice. I don't know where this idea is going yet. I found a 387 but it doesn't have the carrier for handsaws. If I knew I could make such, then I might deal on the machine.


----------



## bearkatwood

The carrier bars are made from 1"x1/8" stock. They are 44" long. There is a taper at each end I imagine to make it easier to load. The toe is marked with an x so you can load the plate in knowing which is the front. Approximately 4 3/4" from each end of the bar there is the attachment hole for the ratchet bar. The ratchet bars have tabs that are spaced 34" apart with an indexing hole 18 1/4" from one side and 16 1/4" from the opposite side. The indexing hole and tab holes are centered at 3/8" in from the side facing the machine. The calipers show the widths of the holes in question. The cantilevered bars that hold the plates are 1/8" material 6 5/8" long by 1 1/2" wide with a slot down the middle to accommodate the clamping bolts. The bolts are made different for different uses as shown. The U shaped lay flat to capture a hand saw, the J shaped are used for a backsaw with the fold being made to accommodate the width of the back. I don't think it would take too much to fabricate the carrier bars, the ratchet bars would be a little tougher, but I have heard of it being done. To set the plate on the carrier bars I use a 3/4" piece of plywood up against the end of the cantilevered bars and flush the plate up to that which sets it just at the right distance, same as the setup bars that were made for the machine, but are hard to locate.
Let me know if there is any other measurements you need.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Oh my! You put a lot of work into posting that info. I thank you. It does look doable but it might take someone better at fabricating things like that than me. I will talk to the fellow some more on the machine to see if we can agree on a price. Without the ability for the machine to sharpen handsaws, it's not worth much to me but, if I knew I could get it set up for handsaws, and get it at a good price it might be a fun project.

Thank you again Brian. I greatly appreciate it.

Mike


----------



## chrisstef

Screen shot that for posterity ^^

Great post.


----------



## bearkatwood

I didn't add that the ratchet bars are made from 1/4" square by 35" long flexible steel. They are pretty malleable as you bend them to get them inset in the carrier. I had one break on the locking tab and tried to have it silver welded back together, but it didn't take. I will probably have to make a new tab and drill the old one out. It is a good system and is somewhat reliable, provided you have it dialed in good. I will be selling off one of my foley filers soon too. I also have a setter I am getting rid of. They also sharpen circular saws pretty well. I am selling off the ACME circular saw filer and foley circular saw setter that were part of the auction. I have asked the guys who are currently logging my property if they knew a mill that uses the old circular blades as the set can do up to a 36" blade which is crazy.








craigslist listing


----------



## donwilwol

I love pleasant surprises.

Anybody know about Dearborn ?


----------



## donwilwol

A quick before and after


----------



## bearkatwood

Working up a batch of veneer saws and half blind dovetail tools.


----------



## DLK

Why do they look like dolphins?


----------



## ErikF

Don-
What method do you use to clean the plates?

Combo Don-
Maybe it was National Geographic, but somewhere I read that dolphins hate veneer.

Brian's finished veneer saws look pretty pimp.


----------



## bearkatwood

The design comes from some obscure maker of the original saw now owned by Patrick Edwards. 


















Thanks Erik for the kind words.


----------



## donwilwol

> Don-
> What method do you use to clean the plate.
> 
> - ErikF


Elbow grease. Scrape and Sand paper.


----------



## bearkatwood

I just bought the Metabo surface grinder that does a marvelous job of shinning them up and can even taper grind a plate with not too much difficulty if you are patient. There are a few models of that machine that are quite a bit cheaper. The eastwood came up in a search listed for $200 which is still a chunk of change, but should do the trick.









If you bought their finishing drum and managed to make an arbor to attached it to a drill press you should be able to work up a plate I would think. The drums are around $20 each.


----------



## donwilwol

I've been thinking about one of those for a while.


----------



## bearkatwood

Pretty cool little dudes, I don't know if that eastwood has variable speed, but that is a nice feature on mine.


----------



## chrisstef

A handful of saw sales would clear that cost up pretty quick yoda. Jus sayin.


----------



## donwilwol

> A handful of saw sales would clear that cost up pretty quick yoda. Jus sayin.
> 
> - chrisstef


Enabler!!


----------



## woodcox

Nice work there, Don. What was the handle made of on that one?

This came today. An immediate difference felt in use from my no.7. It fits better in the hand and the steel is very good. 









Six point stars in the medallion. Etch is hard to see, the plate is still pretty black. Top horn has a been nicely replaced. 








That three point mark is on the other side as well. A nice user no. 12. I was trying to find a panel size but got distracted.


----------



## RWE

Don, maybe you will put it on your website, but what is the brand of that saw with the offset toothline. Is that by design or is it a bad sharpening issue. If it is by design, it does not seem that you have enough length in the coarse teeth to be practical. Cool looking handle. I don't know whether to feel sorry for you or to be jealous. LOL


----------



## donwilwol

I have not been able to identify the maker of the saw.

It's believed the original tooth line was a botched re-toothed job.

I am not sure what wood the handle is. Maybe Cuban mahogany??


----------



## woodcox

Nice etch on this one. Surprised it's not too bad considering what's left of the handle. 


















I don't think I have wood for this on hand.


----------



## chrisstef

Damn woody. That saw is in killer shape.


----------



## donwilwol

> Damn woody. That saw is in killer shape.
> 
> - chrisstef


For sure!!


----------



## Brit

Nice find Woody!


----------



## BenDupre

Flag^^


----------



## bandit571

And blocked….


----------



## bandit571

This Richardson Brothers saw maybe a bit too new…









A skew back, cross cut…Maybe a No. 8?









Has a Maltese Cross logo on the medallion…..Top horn is a bit chipped up..


----------



## bearkatwood

I have a question for you guys on this one. Metal handle, nice saw, they had it listed for$64.









Appreciate any info on what model it is and if that price is reasonable. Thanks.


----------



## bandit571

Docking saw?


----------



## donwilwol

Here is the Atkins version from 1937


----------



## DLK

I have one of those. Cost me $5 at a garage sale. It is a Atkins 30-inch No. 590 DOCKING SAW. Nice to carry in the truck for fast cutting found wood. I see sold listings on e-bay for $20. I think $64 is to much, unless the plate was very clean and it was sharpened. Is the top horn broken off?.


----------



## bearkatwood

Thanks. It is a nice saw and looks like a fast cutter, I may have to hunt one out a little cheaper and in better condition.


----------



## DLK

It is a great saw. I like mine. I will look for one for you.


----------



## donwilwol

The problem with them is antique dealers seem to think they are scarce and valuable. I passed on one a couple weeks ago for $2. Now I wish I hadn't. I would have given it to you.


----------



## bearkatwood

When it rains it pours, now I have two ACME saw vises. The second was bought by a friend in an auction and wants to trade for it.


----------



## bandit571

Yard sale find today….they want $10,....got it for $5









26" long, stamped as a 10ppi…skew back, with a cover-top handle..









Have a readable etch….other than the "D" part. Has the keystone style etch with the box on top with the 1840 inside. Has the letters for the French and Spanish "TrademarK" under the USA under the keystone. Has the lettering and Henry's signature to the right of the Keystone…Very faint traces of an etch between the writing and the handle. Medallion just has DISSTON and 2 five point stars, and PHILA. Has the "scales" inside the keystone on the medallion. Brass bolts. 









Either I have found a D-100 from 1918, or a Victory Saw? 
May be a keeper…for a 5-spot? No bad bends, nor kinks,,,,and seems to be quite sharp….needs refinished, and cleaned up….something to do, while I am healing up…Handle has two scratches..NO Cracks.


----------



## bandit571

Etch turned out to be just scratches rest of the etch came out fine…









Can barely make out the D….and it is huge….enough that a "100" could fit inside….heel is stamped as a "10"...when I took the handle off, I found a "9".....
Show side..









Close up of the handle..









Backside was a bit on the pitted side….tried to clean that up..









I happen to have a Disston D-112….set it beside the older D-100..









The only difference I found, was the D-112 has a boxier etch….instead of the Keystone.

Both are 10ppi, 26", skew back, crosscut….may need a label to tell them apart?


----------



## DLK

Did Disston put hanger holes in the toe of some of the saws or is this owner added? I saw three Disston tool box size saws today in an antique store all for around $5 of $6 and all had a 1/16 inch hole in the toe.


----------



## bandit571

Disston/ H.K. Porter did….doubt IF Disston did…

And, yes..there is a difference between the two…...

Sooo, how about a Family Photo?










Older Disstons…D-8 Panel, D-8 26", D-112, and the D-100….Panel saw is a 10ppi. D-8 is an 8ppi…both have the 8 inside the D…then there is the D-112


Code:


 10ppi, and the D-100

 10ppi….all are sharp, and cut fairly fast..









Kerfs they sit in, were cut by each saw…


----------



## Mr_Pink

I recently bought a 28", 4 1/2 ppi Keen Kutter no 88. The first 8-9 inches have a progressive pitch, starting at 6 ppi.



















This saw doesn't come with a great story of rust-hunting adventures. I was looking for a large, coarse rip saw; and quickly found that trips to local shops were a good way to find tools I wasn't looking for. I ordered this from an online dealer, and received a saw that required relatively little cleaning and some time in the saw vise.


----------



## JADobson

Anyone see anything worth picking up here? I'm already set for users but at $10 each…


----------



## BrentParkin

I'm kinda digging that saw on the far right James. How long is that thing? I can't make out the yard stick markings on my phone screen

Brent


----------



## JADobson

I'm not sure. I'd guess 28" The yardstick markings aren't any clearer on a desktop.


----------



## Johnny7

All four are worth bringing home
Far left panel saw, next what appears to be a Holden handle (possible a W.M. & C. product), another panel saw (an earlier Disston?) and what looks like a big ripper (far right)


----------



## donwilwol

> All four are worth bringing home
> Far left panel saw, next what appears to be a Holden handle (possible a W.M. & C. product), another panel saw (an earlier Disston?) and what looks like a big ripper (far right)
> 
> - Johnny7


I agree. I kinda like the one on the right too. It almost looks like dome nuts, but I'm on my phone and have poor eyesight anyhow.


----------



## JayT

Nice review of one of Erik's dovetail saws in Popular Woodworking.

https://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/editors-blog/tool-test-florip-toolworks-dovetail-saw


----------



## JADobson

> All four are worth bringing home
> Far left panel saw, next what appears to be a Holden handle (possible a W.M. & C. product), another panel saw (an earlier Disston?) and what looks like a big ripper (far right)
> 
> - Johnny7
> 
> I agree. I kinda like the one on the right too. It almost looks like dome nuts, but I m on my phone and have poor eyesight anyhow.
> 
> - Don W


None of it matters…he who hesitates is lost!


----------



## TheFridge

I might finish something one day. Etches are 1" too far to the right. Luckily I have plenty extra plates and the lasering was free.


----------



## HonestlyMediocre

I'm heading out to pick up a Foley 385 retoother this weekend. It's gone one ratchet bar, and 3 carriers. Couple questions:

1) Does anyone have the dimensions of the three carriers (backsaw, straight, and crown) so I can verify I end up with the correct set? The seller has 6 total carriers, and in order to make the deal work I told him he could keep 3 and sell them separately.

2) As most people buying these tools, I'm looking for a set of ratchet bars. Luckily, since I'm getting at least one I plan to make a working set out of modified all thread of various pitch using the true ratchet as a pattern. In the long term, I'd love to have a true, full set. Does anyone have extras they are willing to part with?

I've been recutting teeth on my saws lately trying a few methods, namely Paul Sellers hacksaw method however using all-thread or sawzall blades as templates. I am really looking forward to having a machine run through the process in seconds, which will let me start making my own saws and gifting them or perhaps reselling them.


----------



## TheFridge

Hey bud, I could be wrong but specs for ratchet bars were posted not long ago on this thread. Probably about 4-5 ish pages up. Maybe worth a shot?


----------



## bearkatwood

I posted a bunch of stats on the bars, there isn't a big difference in the carriers. Obviously you will see a curve in the crowned, but for the backsaw and straight, they are the same except the clamping caul. If you are worried that you will get a set that won't work with the foley then I would look at all the measurements I provided a few posts back. Hope that helps.


----------



## waho6o9

http://lumberjocks.com/topics/35266

Good luck now


----------



## HonestlyMediocre

Thanks, all! I did a forum search and some posts referred to this thread so I started skimming through the pages but 15,000+ replies was a lot to sift through! Thank you for narrowing it down. Looking forward to being part of the community after lurking for a couple weeks (new to the hobby). I'll post some photos of my hand filing adventures later to get things back on track.


----------



## TheFridge

Yeah just search using the previous post button up top. Post 15677 is the most recent.


----------



## RWE

Fridge:

Can you post some notes about the laser etch process. I have some saws in the works, based on Summerfi's table saw. I am in a metropolitan area but I don't know where to begin to look for a business that could do the laser engraving. I would like to develop an etch based on my father's business: Pine tree or pine cone. He was a forester and I grew up in the pine flats of South Georgia. Anyway, I figure I can come up with a design that is not too involved, but any info about the process and the business that does the engraving would be helpful. Maybe this was covered in an earlier point on this thread.


----------



## TheFridge

Hey man, I had was referred to the wife of a fellow LJ, Bill White, who does graphics design for a living. I had her design some logos and I gave my input throughout the progress.

It's been a process. I don't know if it's typical but I had to work from the end to the beginning. I found out my buddy had a laser capable of etching metal so I found out what files his program could read. He used Adobe Illustrator files typically and I figured I'd buy AI and do it myself. Wrong. He told me his version cost 8k$. So I asked another buddy who has done the same type of saw etching and he told me I needed a designer and referred me to one and she took good care of me.

You can't really just pull graphics off the web or cobble stuff together. They are nowhere near the resolution necessary for etching even if they look it. Scalable vector graphics are high res scalable graphics.

I'd try to find a laser etcher and see what files they require and see if they do graphics in house.

I would recommend Maggie White. She was awesome to work with and a good ol gal to boot. I'll pm her contact info just in case


----------



## RWE

Thanks for the insight. I will do a search locally and see what I can find out. I do software for a living, but I have not done much in the way of graphics.


----------



## DanKrager

> Yeah just search using the previous post button up top. Post 15677 is the most recent.
> - TheFridge


Fridge, that sounds handy, but where is such a previous post button?

DanK


----------



## TheFridge

The previous 15 replies button I think?


----------



## BillWhite

Fridge, thank you for the kind words. I'll make sure that Mag reads 'em.
Be safe.


----------



## TheFridge

No prob. She deserves it.


----------



## jmartel

Looks like Popular Woodworking did a mini-test of ErikF's dovetail saw. Congrats, you made the big time, now.

https://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/editors-blog/tool-test-florip-toolworks-dovetail-saw?utm_content=bufferb9a0f&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer


----------



## TheFridge

Nice


----------



## bearkatwood

Very cool, well deserved Erik. Fridge, those saw parts look great, are you going to use the plates even with the off center etching? 
I got some new toys today.


----------



## TheFridge

Definitely BK. All my saws are gifts or payment for parts so it'll get used eventually. Or I'll make some 7" DT saws to get it centered where I want it 

I always wanted to play with one to make sure it lives up to the hype. Which I'm fairly confident it does.


----------



## bearkatwood

Amazon now has three varieties of saw nuts.
brass split nuts









Brass flat head









Silver bolts


----------



## wflather

Jackson handsaw-
Just found at auction a "Jackson" 14" handsaw. 
I have heard of Spear and Jackson, but never one just marked Jackson, and I can't seem to find any reference to Jackson alone as a saw maker. 
The etching includes a very Disston-like keystone logo with what looks like "Keystone Saw" and "established 1840" 
The image of the etching may not be very clear, and I haven't yet tried to restore the etch. 
Does anyone know anything about Jackson saws?


----------



## TheFridge

The one thing I don't like and is a deal breaker for me on those sawnuts. Metric.

I think I might just go ahead and pay someone to do my etching. It's one thing to have one person with little time. It's another with two. Those windows are just too far and few between though the possibility of free was enticing.


----------



## summerfi

wflather - Jackson was a secondary brand made by Disston. They are pretty common.

Agree on the metric Fridge. I'd have to but all new bits.


----------



## TheFridge

That's what I was thinking Bob. A couple new bits maybe. A couple new counterbores probably not.


----------



## DLK

> Amazon now has three varieties of saw nuts.


Might be better to buy them directly from Taylor tools.


----------



## TheFridge

Has anyone used a deburring wheel? Is it softer than a regular wheel? I cleaned some plates for lasering and they just sat there, in a conditioned shop, and developed some rust. I really dislike hand sanding them and one of those PC or Eastwood wizardry Tools is out of the question but a cheap deburring wheel isn't if it'll give a consistent finish across the plate.


----------



## DanKrager

A consistent finish is a relative concept, Fridge. They leave a pattern, so if you're really steady and consistent with moves, yes it can be done. Me doing it? Not so much.

DanK


----------



## TheFridge

I get that.


----------



## r33tc0w

Fridge, if you ever need anything etched, let me know 

I would start with a sign shop or a trophy engraver. They'll be able to design the graphics and etch (if they have a machine) or at least point you to a shop that has one.


----------



## r33tc0w

Oh and vector file types are commonly .ai, .eps, .pdf (not all), and sometimes .svg (dwg/ dwx and other CAD related file types use nodes to create curves which will result in a jagged finished product unless they are addressed prior to production.

Some Graphics (jpg, png) that have non-gradient colors but are high enough resolution can be converted with a higher success rate


----------



## TheFridge

I'm trying to get in touch with a place that is a couple minutes from the house and work my way out from there. There's a trophy place in BR I've done work for that could do it but I'm trying to save drive time if I can help it.

I had the graphics made on adobe illustrator and currently have it in .ai and .pdf so hopefully they can take it from there. It's strictly black lines so it shouldn't be too bad. I hope  the problem is that I have some backs and plates cut to size and the teeth cut so I don't have much room for error on those. The majority are just plain sheared plates and full length backs so I can trim to fit later.

If I knew then what I knew now I'd probably be further along


----------



## rad457

Quick question so I don't have to go through 17 thousand + entries on this thread, any way to remove a bend on a saw plate, not creased just bent in the middle.


----------



## chrisstef

Try bending it by hand in the opposite direction andre. You should be able to almost touch tour wrists together.


----------



## bandit571

Get a nice heavy work glove. Hold the handle in one hand. Hold the saw at the bench….run the gloved hand down the plate, pushing back against the bow…..Takes a few good, HARD rub downs…check the progress and repeat until the curve is gone…

Only the toe will be touching the bench. Everything else is above the bench. A good heavy duty work glove will do the trick. Start with the "bow" away from you.


----------



## DanKrager

That's an interesting technique Bandit. I hope I can remember it when I need it!

DanK


----------



## rad457

Thanks, got about 90% of it out using both methods plus flex draw over edge of assembly table, actually looks pretty straight.


----------



## TheFridge

Somehow I'm just discovering the sorcery known as high speed buffing.










I'd really like to buff with wax but I don't want to contaminate the wheel. I guess this calls for grinder #3


----------



## KentInOttawa

> I guess this calls for grinder #3
> 
> - TheFridge


Will you be starting a Bench Grinders of your dreams thread?


----------



## putty

Fridge, you could look at the Beall buffing system for your lathe.


----------



## TheFridge

What am I talking about? That WAS grinder #3  I really need an extension for it.

I have some cbn's from woodturnerswonders (I think). The radiused with the flat in the side gets used a lot for flattening random stuff. Love it.

Putty, I saw some references to it after a search on buffing. I'll have to look into it further. I think I could put a system like that to use.


----------



## RWE

I recently got this 3 step Buffing System from Penn State. It works great on the saw plates as well. What ever scratch pattern you have on the plate, it can do a good job of refining that pattern.

https://www.pennstateind.com/store/LBUFFSYS.html

So if you have a lathe, it is a good and affordable option ($54.95). Also, you might have easier access to the wheels on this system versus a grinder. Plus, you can vary the speed.


----------



## donwilwol

I've got 7 or 8 i think.










I've added a shelf with 2 more below and added 2 more on top.


----------



## TheFridge

I need a buffer that Big in my life.


----------



## theoldfart

And you need a big buffer for ….......


----------



## donwilwol

> And you need a big buffer for ….......
> 
> - theoldfart


He's got a lot to shine


----------



## theoldfart

Really


----------



## donwilwol

> I recently got this 3 step Buffing System from Penn State. It works great on the saw plates as well. What ever scratch pattern you have on the plate, it can do a good job of refining that pattern.
> 
> https://www.pennstateind.com/store/LBUFFSYS.html
> 
> So if you have a lathe, it is a good and affordable option ($54.95). Also, you might have easier access to the wheels on this system versus a grinder. Plus, you can vary the speed.
> 
> - RWE


I've seen plans to make one of these. I've often thought about making one.


----------



## TheFridge

I'm quoting lyrics here "you got let it shine! I'm! Comin! Out! I want the world to know! You have to let it show!"


----------



## theoldfart

glitter boy

Also, some one earlier posted a Jackson. I have an early one, split nuts, that i'm comfortable saying it was original to the Northampton Langdon of mine.





































The saw is twenty inches. Restoration credit goes to Bob Summerfield


----------



## bearkatwood

Wow, nice job again Bob. Beautiful saw.
Thought I would get in on this shiny stuff.
I bolted the motabo thingy to the side of my bench and it makes shining up the plates pretty easy.









Right now I have about 5 grits I can progress through from 60 grits up to 240.

I thought I would try it out on this plate that had some pretty good rust damage and see if it was salvageable.










I walked it through the grits and about 5 minutes later it was looking passable.










You can still see a little pitting left behind so maybe another round and it would be good. 
I am not getting the high shine like you guys, but maybe if I got a little higher grits it might.
Have a great day guys.

This is one I just finished today that I liked. It is english walnut.


----------



## TheFridge

Still. It looks good. Make me jealous.

I am a fiend for shiny. Like the crab from Moana.


----------



## theoldfart

"Saws, using collecting, cleaning and buying" and making!

I've started milling some stock for a 48" Roubo frame saw. I need to resew a large 14" x 34" 5/4 slab of cherry and the band saw is out for something that size. I wrote to Isaac Blackburn and he recommended the 48" saw.

The stock is 9/4 ash. Ripped with the band saw and cross cut on the mitre box



















I'm ordering the kit from Blackburn today so the stock should have time to acclimate.

And yes i know using a tailed tool to make an un tailed tool seems sacrilegious but ripping 7' of 9/4 ash is not something I have a strong desire to do. I did that when I built my bench so, been there done that!


----------



## theoldfart

Well, about that %#@*^%() band saw









Should have gone Galoot to begin with


















Pleased with the results, D8 thumby to the rescue, started the kerf with a 9 panel saw.

Stock is done and waiting on the hardware.


----------



## RWE

I am late to the game with rip saws, but I have been impressed with how well they will cut. However, that looks pretty ambitious. Congratulations on the effort and result.


----------



## donwilwol

Here I an interesting one (From Swedish Carving Techniques by Will Sundqvist)


----------



## TheFridge

Galooticus hath smited you OF  thou shall not use tails!


----------



## bandit571

Have to be careful around them hand-powered rip saws…









Old No. 7 decided to get hungry, one day….









And was cutting a bit faster than my hand could move out of it's way….


----------



## theoldfart

Fridge, can't imagine life without tail(s)

Bandit, I was very careful. Didn't want DNA on the ash. That saw is the only saw I have sharpened myself successfully.


----------



## DavePolaschek

I've been cutting small (3/8") slices out of an apple tree from my yard. My best success lately has been using a kerfing plane to put a kerf across it, and then using the Veritas rip tenon saw to cut off slices. As a bonus, I can touch it up with a couple passes of the file on each tooth pretty quickly. Guess it'll do until the rip half-back I ordered from Florip Toolworks gets here.




























This was a 50-ish year old crab apple that we took down four years ago, and it's been sitting in a buddy's garage, slabbed and stickered. There's some pretty grain inside there.


----------



## RWE

Question for Atkins experts. I saw an Atkins 68 in very good shape for $50.00. I have tried to beat down my impulses to buy every interesting saw that I see and $50 made me pass it buy. Now that I have looked online and at Ebay, does that seem like a good price? I will be back in the area where I found it tomorrow. Are they rare enough for that price point. It was pretty.


----------



## tshiker

Hey Oldfart, new shop?


----------



## theoldfart

Yea, it's pretty close to being fully set up. I still need to make a saw till for all the saws and there are still four mitre boxes that need to be re assembled. Took this pic for Don this am.










Since rust hunting is pretty much a bust out here I have to spend time doing woodworking!


----------



## JADobson

Love the dutchie in the background!


----------



## theoldfart

JA, thanks. Made that up at LieNielsen with Chris Schwartz a few years ago. I wanted a "portable" chest, I have two other much larger floor chests, one I made the other bought at the last minute for our move to CA.


----------



## bearkatwood

Miters don't stand a chance  Nice… not collection.


----------



## DanKrager

Small, medium and OMG! I've never seen a miter saw that big before!

DanK


----------



## donwilwol

so what do you do if you need to cut a miter?


----------



## theoldfart

Dan, it's a Langdon Improved #16 and takes a 6" saw. That saw I'm showing is only 28". I have a 30" that needs restoration. I can cut almost 12" wide stock on it.


----------



## theoldfart

chop saw


----------



## Brit

I have a lot of miter boxes but I'm not a collector.

You might say that Kev, we couldn't possibly comment.


----------



## TheFridge

I believe the one on the right is used for mitering up to 24" logs 

I'm having a fixture made for getting sawnuts lasered. A chunk of aluminum 1"hx1"wx5"l ish. With holes on one face 1/2" to center from ends and sides with all hole holes exactly 1" apart for easy setup. What does everyone else do? do you rely on the laserer to find CL every time or do you have a jig? Good idea? Doesn't matter?


----------



## theoldfart

So down another habit hole, Roubo Frame saw, 48"










Joinery is done and I used a clamp to fully tension the frame, worked like a charm. Next up, shaping the arms.









Hopefully Isaac Blackburn sends out the hardware pretty soon!


----------



## BlasterStumps

Wow! TOF, that is going to be nice and something I have wanted to do for a while now. All the best with it.

On another note: I showed a picture some time back of a little saw that I made from a bosch blade and an old plywood saw handle. Butt ugly but it worked very well. Well today, I found a piece of cherry that would work for cutting out a new handle. Here are the before and after for change of handle:
Before:








New handle









Never hurts to improve, right?
Mike


----------



## theoldfart

Mike, well done. Way beyond "just an improvement".


----------



## donwilwol

That's great Kevin. I'm on my phone, so at first glance I thought the clamp was the blade and tightener. I did a double take!


----------



## BillWhite

Great job Mike.


----------



## donwilwol

> Great job Mike.
> 
> - Bill White


Ditto. A vast improvement!


----------



## Handtooler

Mike, Just plain SUPER craftsmanship. You really tagged that handle. Bet it fits your hand better than the original?


----------



## BlasterStumps

Thanks guys. I might have to remake the bench hook to go with it now. Can't hardly beat that fine toothed blade for cutting small dowel, etc.


----------



## DanKrager

Mike, that put's that saw in a whole 'nother category…beautiful!

DanK


----------



## DavePolaschek

Kevin, your big saw is coming right along!

Mike, that's a beautiful update to your little saw!


----------



## TheFridge

Kev. Get to work.

BS. Much much better. If you ever want to keep the sharply defined bevels without much work just leave the template glued on while sanding then plane or sand the template off.


----------



## theoldfart

Fridge, I will make use of that advice!


----------



## BlasterStumps

Thanks again guys for the compliments.

Fridge I like how your saw handles come out and think that someday I might try the template idea. I usually just try to copy what I see by drawing it out on a sheet of paper and then use tracing paper to put the idea on the piece of wood. I usually make many changes as I go. I'm not very good at it. 
Mike


----------



## theoldfart

^ that handle says otherwise


----------



## bearkatwood

Very nice tote on that.
48" resaw, nice. That will do some damage.


----------



## TheFridge

I've only done a handful of handles so take this with a grain of salt. I tried tracing but found leaving the blank a hair thick so I can get the thin layer of glue off, without sacrificing thickness, easier at all stages. Except the extra stage of getting the template and glue off 

My son also has a lighted tracing board I used to make the template for the reverse side  and just made a bunch of copies.

Edit: when making on the fly changes my only recommendation is to pay close attention to saw nut layout. I modified the first saw I made and ended up not being able to use the original holes I drilled and had to plug them.


----------



## BlasterStumps

I have more of the cherry wood that I could use to make another handle. I might do a little experimenting with the template idea once the smoke from all the wildfires let up a bit. Can't hardly stand to be outside at times. That coupled with the high temps makes it tough to be in my little garage work area.

Thanks for the pointers Fridge. 
Mike


----------



## bearkatwood

One of those lighted trace boards would be nice to have, I always use the back glass door and have had people open it on me while I was trying to trace something out.


----------



## DanKrager

A method I use for scrollsawing might work for saw handle templates. If you put down a layer of self-adhesive shelf paper on the wood blank, then glue your pattern to that with contact cement (3M #77 rattle can), the pattern comes off cleanly with no trace left behind. Spray the back of the paper but not the shelf paper to keep overspray off the wood. Apply when dryish but still tacky…usually about a minute.
DanK


----------



## TheFridge

> One of those lighted trace boards would be nice to have, I always use the back glass door and have had people open it on me while I was trying to trace something out.
> 
> - bearkatwood


This 

Ingenuity at its finest.



> A method I use for scrollsawing might work for saw handle templates. If you put down a layer of self-adhesive shelf paper on the wood blank, then glue your pattern to that with contact cement (3M #77 rattle can), the pattern comes off cleanly with no trace left behind. Spray the back of the paper but not the shelf paper to keep overspray off the wood. Apply when dryish but still tacky…usually about a minute.
> DanK
> 
> - Dan Krager


Ditto from above  might have to steal this one.


----------



## DreamsOfSawDust

I am in possession of a couple of saws I received after the passing of my grandfather. I've been able to find nothing about the manufacturer or anything to do with these saws. Stamped on the side of the saw is "Frank Charlton Ltd" and "made in England." Please help give any info possible. I used im looking to find information about value, type of saw, use, dates, quality, value then and possible value now. Thanks in advance


----------



## RWE

What is odd to me about those saws is that the handles don't look like old saw handles. Maybe they are more like a modern hardware store variety handsaw that he somehow came into possession of. Based on the handles, I would guess 1960's and up.


----------



## DreamsOfSawDust

RWE,

All that I was ever told about them was that he got them during/ right after WWll. I wouldn't be surprised if the handles didn't come with them, he was for sure a DIY kind of guy. I was a kid so my memory or his story may not be correct. But, he always said they were made from German tanks/weapons melted down. Anywho, I've been trying to research that and I cannot find anything about the manufacturer of the saws or anything. Thanks again for your help.


----------



## RWE

Dreams:

Pull off one of the handles to test your theory. If he replaced the handles, there is a good chance that the old imprint would be there for you to see. That would validate your theory. Secondly, if they are English in origin, they may be typical of post war handles in England. I have a "Made in Germany" saw that has a similar style handle and I have never found any info on it.

That is a cool story about being made from Tank armor. That is one of the most fun aspects of working with old tools, the bits of history that come up.

If you are a woodworker and would like to put them to use, I would be happy to sharpen them for you. I have done about 30 saws at this point. Probably not the best, but I can bring them to a useful state. Private message me.

A fellow named the Brit who contributes here quite often may be of help. Also, Bob Summerfield, aka SummerFi may know about this saw. Look for one of them to pop in with a helpful opinion. I am pretty much a rookie so I defer to their more experienced opinions.


----------



## Johnny7

*DreamsOfSawDust*

I don't think there is any point in taking off the handles.
Those blocky, blond-toned handles and fasteners are totally consistent with the post-war manufacturing period.


----------



## DavePolaschek

Just got this beauty in the mail today.










It's a Florip Toolworks half-back with a granadillo handle, filed rip. I plan to use it for rip cuts when turning plain-sawn slabs into smaller pieces. Its diet will be apple, apricot, oak, ash, and elm, mostly.


----------



## donwilwol

Sweet!!


----------



## RWE

That is a nice saw. What is the length of the toothline? I like the deep saw plate and length. Looks like a good worker, but I am trying to figure out the length.


----------



## bearkatwood

Awesome!


----------



## bandit571

Strange, little saw, was in a bundle of saws I won at an auction back in May..









Blade is 9" long, 3/4" wide. 11ppi. Metal rod frame. Pins holding the blade had been peened over..









Thinking a wood infill, to make the handle into a better grip. Was basically a freebie. May sharpen it up, WHEN I am allowed to return to the shop…..


----------



## DavePolaschek

> That is a nice saw. What is the length of the toothline? I like the deep saw plate and length. Looks like a good worker, but I am trying to figure out the length.


It's a 17" x 6" plate. .032" thick, so plenty beefy especially with the short back on it.


----------



## TheFridge

Sawnut lasering jig on the way. Courtesy of a buddy of mine and a small fee.

Laser is registered on the tit and the 7 holes are an inch apart. Hopefully it makes it easy to program.


----------



## ErikF

Dave, halfway decent saw you have there. Thanks again for the purchase.

Fridge-

Nice looking setup. I have a very similar setup for engraving on my CNC. I use a 1" space between the holes just like you're saying- makes zeroing easy.

Are you using a laser that you own or is it a jig that will go to someone else? I'm interested to learn more about fiber lasers and what their limitations are.


----------



## Handtooler

Bandit, I saw a meat cutter using one almost identical for cutting bones in such items as hams,


----------



## bandit571

Might have been more like this?


----------



## TheFridge

A buddy has the laser. Just trying to make it as easy as possible for future runs.

His is a CO2 and requires the ceramic spray. I wish I could find someone interested in a custom job but no such luck so far.


----------



## DLK

I think that bandits saw is a surgeons bone saw see this.


----------



## DavePolaschek

> Dave, halfway decent saw you have there. Thanks again for the purchase.


You're welcome, and thank you! Next one I order, I need to remember to specify a larger handle. My paws are huge and I suspect I'll end up taking a rasp to this one at some point to make a little more room for my fingers. I can use it, but it's snug.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Just wanted to share another of my amateur saw handle making attempts I just finished. If I can get a time when my up close vision is having a good day, I will sharpen this saw for use on my Wards clone of the 150. I placed the smaller saw up against it just to provide some size comparison. It was fun getting to make another handle. The smoke from the wildfires was in-escapable though yesterday and working out in the shop wasn't good because of it.
Mike


----------



## RWE

Very nice. Doesn't look amateur to me. Crisp lines, elegant.


----------



## adot45

OK, you know what they say, "Hangout in the barber shop and sooner or later you're gonna get a haircut".
So I stopped at a garage sale and bought these two hand saws. It looks like the one with dark colored handle is
in original condition but the lighter color handled one has been taken apart and put together incorrectly, or fiddled with somehow. I am just guessing….but I liked the slope of it. So do I take them apart to de-rust them or just wipe them down or what?


----------



## RWE

The Disstonian website is your friend if you are not familiar with it.

http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/quickglance.html

You have two USA medallion Disstons. If the plates are straight, they make excellent users and usually clean up very nicely. Check the link and post back the model styles. You can tell by the medallion and nut placement and the handle style.

The skewback one seems to have been tampered with as you state. Look for an etch when you clean the plate and if you don't see a Disston etch it may be a frankensaw.

Post back after you determine the model. The one with the carving is interesting. Hard to see the nut arrangement with your picture.


----------



## adot45

Thanks RWE I'M going there now to determine what I can.

RWE That is some very interesting stuff! 
It looks like the 4th one from the bottom, and the handle is walnut and I can see remnants of a red stain, so would this be the Victory, D-42, D-43?


----------



## RWE

I think you are right. It seems to be one of those in that grouping. I have a D-23 and it is one of my favorites. Read up on how to clean the plate if you don't know. I have tried many methods, The Works toilet bowl cleaner, citric acid, but lately I prefer Evaporust (on Amazon and I think at Harbor Freight). Get a gallon. Finding a container big enough for the saw plate is the interesting issue. Some of those under the bed plastic things would work. I use a black concrete mixing plastic box that you get in the big box stores in the concrete section. They are ok, but you have to use a lot of liquid because they are so wide. You can reuse the Evaporust.

Others prefer hand sanding with fine grit sandpaper and a block of wood to make sure you don't mess up the etch. I will let the experts chime in on that.

I don't know what your experience with saws might be, but be careful when you remove the nuts. Get a screwdriver that fits snugly so you don't mar the nut. The bolts will sometimes stick in the plate, so a light tap will usually free them.

Looks like a 10 PPI or maybe even an 11 or 12. Would be great for crosscutting hardwood. Will give a clean cut line.

Looks like a nice find. Have fun bringing it back to life.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Thank you. You are too kind. 
It was a fun thing to do and I was somewhat bored so I decided to draw it out. 
Mike



> Very nice. Doesn t look amateur to me. Crisp lines, elegant.
> 
> - RWE


----------



## adot45

BlasterStumps: The job you did on those handles is amazing. They are beautiful.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Thank you David. Handles are tricky but they can be fun.

I think the light colored handle on the one saw you have is a replacement handle. I think they were predrilled so the person that fitted it had to tilt it on the saw plate a little to get it to fit. If that angle works for you then I'd say you are good to go. Looks like it is solid on there. I used one of those handles to fashion a push block for my saw:


----------



## adot45

> Thank you David. Handles are tricky but they can be fun.
> 
> I think the light colored handle on the one saw you have is a replacement handle. I think they were predrilled so the person that fitted it had to tilt it on the saw plate a little to get it to fit. If that angle works for you then I d say you are good to go. Looks like it is solid on there. I used one of those handles to fashion a push block for my saw:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - BlasterStumps


Mike, I hope those fires and smoke are far away from you and a hazard for you.

Yep, I agree that the light colored one is not original to the saw, I used WD40 and 400 emery paper to
Clean it up a little but didn't find any etching. The saw seems in pretty good shape and I'll try it out.
Pretty cool push block!


----------



## adot45

> The Disstonian website is your friend if you are not familiar with it.
> 
> http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/quickglance.html
> 
> You have two USA medallion Disstons. If the plates are straight, they make excellent users and usually clean up very nicely. Check the link and post back the model styles. You can tell by the medallion and nut placement and the handle style.
> 
> The skewback one seems to have been tampered with as you state. Look for an etch when you clean the plate and if you don t see a Disston etch it may be a frankensaw.
> 
> Post back after you determine the model. The one with the carving is interesting. Hard to see the nut arrangement with your picture.
> 
> - RWE


RWE, well, the WD4 0 and 400 wasn't as much fun as I hoped but it did reveal some etching. The saw is a D-23 but the wood isn't walnut, I don't think it's apple either but I will clean it up and re-assemble it.

I've really enjoyed that site you posted and have learned a lot in a short time. Thank you


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## RWE

The USA period saws usually clean up and work well. I like the Phila and Philada medallion saws. However I use my D-23 USA quite a bit. I have several Warranted Superior saws that I like. Any of the older saws are fun and if you start looking and spend some time on the Disstonian site, you can get an informed eye and find other worthwhile saws to work with. Report back on the Points Per Inch on that D-23 when you get a chance. I have learned to appreciate the various PPI ranges for giving the saw the right setup for the job at hand. Coarser teeth for rough lumber/two by fours etc. Finer teeth and set for furniture grade projects and hardwood that is dry. You will not believe how fast RIP saws will work and cut rip cuts. Atkins and Simonds are the other two main brands that are common. There are sites with info on those brands, but the Disstonian is by far the best site.

Look for an 8 point D-8 Rip or Crosscut. D-8's are very common and are great users. Good utilitarian saw. The thumbhole D-8 Rip is very cool, but not as common as standard handled D-8.

I have picked up a few saws on Ebay, but as the folks on here call it, "Rust Hunting" is fun and you will get infected. It is best to put you hands on the saw and you can't do that with Ebay. The wife usually will enjoy the Antique Flea malls and yard sales, so it can be fun for both of you.

With a D-23 and a D-8 you would be in good shape. If you get hooked, then you will spend all your time working on old tools like I do and never build anything. LOL I picked up one Disston about 20 years ago and when I learned to sharpen and set it 3 or so years ago, I grew my collection to over 30 saws. I have made a couple from scratch as well. Fun hobby.


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## theoldfart

Just to stir the pot I would recommend looking for Simonds saws. They stopped production in 1926 so the supply is no where near the Distons but well worth the hunt. Just my two cents worth.


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## adot45

Well, I have collected Stanley planes for several years and have most all the ones I want except a #1 I also have boxes of them put away that aren't all Stanley's but were too nice to have passed up. We go to the flea market every Saturday and I have seen lots of saws, I just never was motivated to buy any, due to a purchase I made of a panel saw. I soaked it in Evaporust and it turned it black and when I tried to get the black off, I lost most of the etching. It was an E C Atkins. I guess Evaporust has a shelf life and mine is past it, way past it. Now I know much more about cleaning them so will probably give it another go. oldfart, I will keep an eye out for the Simonds too, appreciate the comment.
RWE: I was thinking that the other saw I picked up today was a D-8 or a 120…? I bid on a handle for it and was outbid instantly…..on an auction that just laid there for almost the whole time with no bids. I'll measure the tpi and edit this. (shop is out back) The D-23 tpi is 11


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## theoldfart

Take a peek here for Simonds info

I also have two early pocket catalogues if you need model info


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## ErikF

> Dave, halfway decent saw you have there. Thanks again for the purchase.
> 
> You're welcome, and thank you! Next one I order, I need to remember to specify a larger handle. My paws are huge and I suspect I'll end up taking a rasp to this one at some point to make a little more room for my fingers. I can use it, but it's snug.
> 
> - Dave Polaschek


Noted.

I appreciate the fact that you're willing to take a rasp to it. Finish is blo followed up with some wax.

No cool restorations but here is a set of saws I finished up yesterday.


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## DavePolaschek

> I appreciate the fact that you're willing to take a rasp to it. Finish is blo followed up with some wax.


Figured as much, thanks! I've already made (and modified) a handle on my kerfing plane. It's still not quite perfect, but it's getting there. Only difference between that and my other handsaws is that I find I want a much lower hang angle on the kerfing plane than I do on other saws.

But overall, I don't worry too much about needing to customize my tools. Worst case, I end up having to dig into my bigger chunks of apple and make a completely new handle, but I think I can open up the bottom of the handle somewhere between 1/16 and 1/8 and that'll be enough that it'll be a comfortable user. I've been surprised at how much difference an eighth can make.


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## BlasterStumps

My hat is off to you Erik. Beautiful tools! 
Is the saw on the left in the picture a pattern makers saw or dovetail?
Mike


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## bearkatwood

Very nice Erik.


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## ErikF

> My hat is off to you Erik. Beautiful tools!
> Is the saw on the left in the picture a pattern makers saw or dovetail?
> Mike
> 
> - BlasterStumps


Thanks Mike. I call it a benchtop saw but I've heard pattern makers saw and table saw. I like to keep one on the bench for quick cutoff and other odds and ends that don't require a panel saw.

Thanks Brain


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## bandit571

There was a certain model Disston would custom etch for whatever a customer wanted, that the customer wouls sell at their hardware store or supply store. Seems there were types of saws, a straight back, and a skew back..

Trying to find the model numbers…..does No. 091 or 090 ring a bell?


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## kwigly

Bandit, The 1918 Disston catalog lists nine saws as "Special Saws Etched to Order", (including the 090 and the 091). It seems likely to me that Disston would custom etch other saw models too, if the order was large enough (as would other sawmakers).


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## bandit571

Hmmmm, seems I may have given the "Farmer" saw away….still have a til filled with "keepers" 









And a small collection of backsaws..









However, according to a couple Trolls out there…the rest of the saws are JUNK….so..all these saws that are just hanging around…









Yep these…will be going out the door, and out to the curb. There MAY a keeper in there…somewhere, will know when I am hauling them to the can at the curb. I am keeping the ones that are in the til, and those backsaws.


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## BlasterStumps

You're not alone Bandit. I have a few junkers as well. I picked them up at the junque stores mainly for the saw nuts. Some I cut up for scrapers. Some I may donate back to Habitat. But I am like you, got to get rid of a few at least. 
Mike


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## bandit571

Hauled a handful out to the curb. The Sandvik toolbox saw and a Craftsman saw..I was unable to get them down…kept a couple Atkins saws, and one by Worth….even threw out a "diamond edge" saw.

keeping 4 out of 12….the rest are sitting out on the curb.


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## bandit571

Curbside?









Before the last three were tossed, had to get the old clamp down…









Kept four saws, mainly Atkins models..









These three were headed to the curb. Hung the remaining four up on nails…









The saws in the til are safe, same with those backsaws. 
Plenty of head room, now….spiders are not pleased.


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## DLK

Some of those plates are pretty clean. You could cut them up for card scrapers. And I think some could be turned into good users, but with low resale value.


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## Holbs

Since this is the most relevant handsaw oriented forum post thread, I guess I should click on "watch" and post here for the same subjects. , as TheFridge has suggested.
I have an opportunity to purchase a Foley 397 hand saw sharpener + attachments for $50. Not much out there in regards to what to look for in a used Foley 397, what attachments are mandatory, etc except for a youtube video of a 397 in action which was really cool. As told, is 100% operational and clean with attachments. I do have a number of handsaws to sharpen, and to keep sharpened from tenon, panels, carcass, etc. I actually do not mind sharpening by hand but for $50…. Hmm….. wouldn't hurt, would it? (I did ask if had retoother as well, but no go).
Now to figure out how to delete the same post I did but in the power tool forum section….


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## bearkatwood

Nice stand on that. Good find.


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## TheFridge

50$ is hard to beat. I'd think you could get your money back easily if you don't like.


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## bearkatwood

Well my deal won't be that good, but I do have a set of stuff for sale. I just put it on craigslist, might not show up for a bit. I am selling a foley filer #387 in working order with a straight carrier bar and 2 ratchet bars with 9,5ppi and 8,4 1/2ppi I also have a foley setter #352 . I would like to sell it all as one set for $245 local pick up. I don't feel like messing with crating this up to ship. I am open to a little haggling, it is hard to price the ratchet bars and carrier bars because they are pretty rare to see.
Craigslist link


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## Sawron

Oh heavens I think I have developed a saw problem and this thread is not helping me out there but what the heck I'm pretty happy with them after working through numerous handle designs and the pine > newly discovered slab of walnut transition:








On the left is a hacked down to size Stanley 19-200 or something that came with a cheap miter box and floppy handle, hacksawed it down into a carcase saw and recut it crosscut, own handle design in that green walnut.
On the right is a Crown Gents I rehandled and cleaned up the sharpening but left rip cut for dovetailing with a bit of added slope to the gullets to spit dust out nicely.

I don't really have a better picture of the 14 inch Kobalt I rehandled after seeing our delightful Mr. Sellers trying one out I think? I just cleaned up the teeth and put a mild sort of hybrid rip-cross pattern on it, I was using the brass colored sex bolts but that blade is too long so I swapped in some bigger black ones I took off a little stanley camp saw and inserted a washer because I have no squared section saw bolts, but this is it on the right:








Plus the carcase/dovetail over to the left and my little minimox I did with some sliding bar clamps.

Down the rabbit hole I go, already warned the missus if I start trying to tell her "look I got you some saws honey" to smack me.


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## Sawron

Also good lord there are some pretty saws in here, not going to go through and quote and reply and whatnot to every one because let's face it nobody has time for all of that but I've gone through a couple hundred pages and need a break!

Meant to ask earlier, outside of tradition and it being a bit fiddly to avoid doing it, is there a reason all of the backsaws I've seen have the back of the spine mortise cut through? I never did one that I was happy with so on a lark I tried just drilling out a mortise with a suitable bit and used the blade kinda like a float to clear out the back of the blade slot until it was snugged back into place and I can't imagine going back to slicing out my mortise backs anymore.

Don't think I remembered to grab a picture specifically of the slot/mortises I did like this, but this one kinda shows it in the family pic that resulted from my fondling this pretty green wood for various toys:


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## ErikF

Max,

Nice job on the saws. I believe saws are made with an exposed mortise to allow access to the saw back. Also, it seems like the area above the backs (with your saws) could be prone to splitting. I could be wrong…time will tell.


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## BlasterStumps

I found this little Disston Pattern Makers saw today which is kind of cool because I have actually been thinking of making one lately. I think it is called a No 1. Well anyway, now I don't need to make a blade but this one will need the teeth touched up. I'm not sure I have a file small enough to do 15 PPI.

The original handle is in good shape but would need some sanding. However, I can barely hold that handle because it is so small. So, I cut out a new one. I haven't finished shaping it yet but it's close. Once it has been given a round over treatment I think it will look a little more delicate than it does in these pictures.

I don't now what wood the original handle is but I think it is bland and not very exciting along with being way too small for my hand. Here are a couple pics to show my progress so far:


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## RWE

That looks real nice. I don't think I have ever read or heard of a "pattern makers" saw. I guess I will have to do some research on it. Post again when you finish it.


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## 5am

Hi everybody. Greetings from The Netherlands. Newish here, been lurking around learning about old handtools.
I acquired a few old saws recently, and am trying to figure out what I've found exactly. And how to fix em. Complete novice at this, so need a bit of help please.

Has Disston made the model 16 or D16 for Underhill Clinch & Co New York? Found a big handsaw, 26" 7 or 8 tpi, I believe a ripcut, with these markings etched in clearly:

UNDERHILL CLINCH & Co
No 84
NEW YORK 
SPRING STEEL Warranted
In cursive script: Patent Temper Patent Ground

An '8' is stamped into the heel of the blade.

It's identical to the Disston 16 on the disstonian website, except for a few things. It's got the no 16 handle, but is a straightback, possibly a lightweight / ships version. Also it's got the chipcarving of a double (a small one upwards joined to a small one downwards) branch of grain identical to the Disston ones, but only on the actual grip, not on the cheeks. The handle seems to have been painted dark brown or black once. It's Beech. The medallion just states warranted superior.

I know Underhill was a trading company / hardware store, and was told they likely bought tools from the renowned makers to sell on, somewhere along the line branding it with their companys name.

Can anybody tell me more? I've searched for days, not much info on the history I found at all.

I'm having trouble with another big hand saw too. It's etched
Cast Steel
Warren No 82
Warranted
Made in U.S.A.

24", 6? Tpi, 3 brass saw nuts, no medallion, simple beech handle. Straight back. Can't find anything about Warren handsaws at all. I've tried hard. Zilch on a maker, zilch on a hardware store.

Then there's a Cast Steel Henry Disston & Sons Warranted(d) Philad'a U.S.A. Back saw. It's huge. So I suppose it's a Carcass saw. But am new to this so please correct if I'm wrong.
16", steel back (can't say if it's blued, it's covered in grime / linseedoil and wax), vague etching with the capstone in the middle, simple apple handle (no frills, quite flat) seems lacquered, with 3 brass saw nuts, medallion says Disston U.S.A. Model looks like the smaller 1940-1947 pne one the Disstonian website. Tpi seems about 11 or 12. It seems crosscut. It's 5 inches high, as far as I can tell now it's a slightly tapered blade. Just over a mm thick (about 1,3mm) above the teeth ( but covered in a coat of linseedoil / wax), just on or under a mm thick (0,9-1mm) directly under the back (also covered in grime). 
I'm having trouble figuring out the model and approximate age of this one. Either a 77 or a 4, but I can't find out much. Against the 77 is the model of the medallion and a lack of finer tpi up front at the toe. Against the 4 is the size. Can't find much about cast steel either.

I'm having trouble uploading all of the pics, somehow my images folder isn't recognised. I'll try again later. The pic provided of the Underhill etching is from the Web, mines exactly the same.

So, basically I'm interested to find out if Disston sold to Underhill. What Warren was, a store or a maker, and what model Disston backsaw I found. Any help finding info on the history is greatly appreciated.


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## BlasterStumps

Change of plans for my handle project for the little Disston saw. I don't have a way to properly cut the thin kerf for the blade slot so until I come up with a good method I will just keep the original handle on the saw. Maybe it is supposed to be small for a reason? I cleaned up the original handle and put it back on for now at least. I might give making another handle a try at some point and redraw the handle so it goes with the plate a little better.


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## TheFridge

I have a couple pull saws that have a thin kerf that I use.


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## RWE

To sharpen the plate use this (recommended to me by Summerfi) 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/GROBET-VALLORBE-SWISS-NEEDLE-FILE-3-SQUARE-18cm-7-1-4-Long-Cuts-00-0-1-2-3-4-/130825617409?var=&hash=item1e75d08001:m:m3Ydjk01yNgsssRklmHQaGQ

for a 16 PPI he recommended a cut 2, I assume it would be good for a 15 PPI as well

Use the plate to cut the new handle's blade slot. Clamp it between two boards where the bottom board aligns the plate to the center of your new handle. Everybody has a different way to cut blade slots, but assuming a very light set in the plate, that should be good enough for a slot on the new handle.

Once you have it clamped either rub the handle against the sawplate or vice versa.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Sam, love that etch! Wish I could answer your question, sorry. There are more than a couple of regulars that check in, perhaps they'll know.

Nice reclaim, Blaster!


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## BlasterStumps

I rooted around in my box of saw sharpening paraphernalia and found a couple correct sized files so I went thru the teeth best I could. The little saw is now cutting pretty sweet but I'm sure someone with some talent at sharpening could make it better. : ) The Bosch blade that I made into a Gent's saw gives a much nicer cut although not as aggressive of a cut. Anyway, the little Disston is done for now. I'm glad I had some files for it and didn't have to buy some. They would cost about $10 and the little Disston was only $3 at the Restore. I'm kinda tight, huh!
Mike


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## BlasterStumps

Fridge, The pull saw is a good idea. I think now I have a good reason to get one. Thanks!
Mike

RWE, thanks for the link to the files. I changed my mind and ordered one of the No 2 cut files. Mine were worn badly. thanks again
Mike


> I have a couple pull saws that have a thin kerf that I use.
> 
> - TheFridge


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## Brit

*5am* - Welcome to Lumberjocks. I managed to find out that Underhill Clinch & Co. were located at 84-86 White Street, New York, just off Lafyette and Broadway. There is a new apartment block there now, but this is how it used to look.










A page in their catalogue shows that they sold Disston saws, so I think it highly likely Disston also made the saws they sold under their own brand.


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## 5am

Thanks Smithy, the etching of the Underhill one is rather pretty. So is the one on the Warren No 82. That's laid out circular in design, surrounded by a lot of stylised branches with small leaves and interspersed with what looks like the elongated seedpods of reeds, all sprouting in the general direction of each corner. The Disston backsaw one is barely legible, and only partly at that. Just enough to know it's a Disston blade, a Disston back and handle plus associated Disston saw nuts.

In the same batch of saws there also was a small dovetail backsaw with open handle, no marks at all, and two kind of oval sunken brass split saw nuts. That's even a more difficult one to find out anything about. Both backsaws are really heavy due to the thick steel on the back.

Anyhow I'm happy with my thriftstorefinds, paid about €2,50 for each. But I'ld really like to find out more about the history, as I try to for all the old woodworking tools I find, rescue and try to get back up and running. In this case, the added interest is due to the fact that there are three, possibly four saws made in the USA turning up here. Much less likely than f.i. English saws turning up.

They likely were once owned and used by one owner, as an old toolchest and some other good quality woodworking tools also turned up simultaneously. All tools nicely complementing each other in size and function. all seem about the same age (give or take 25 years). A carefully put together set of quality tools. They all seem to predate WWII, and maybe even Wwi in case of the dovetail saw and most of the brace bits. Those could be latter quarter 19th C or so. 
To me as a novice it's difficult to figure out if all bits of the saw are original or if some parts (f.i. the handle) may have been replaced, misleading me in figuring out how old things might be and which factory made them. I think they are,

The saws were obviously loved and (once) properly maintained. Just one isn't straight anymore. All were covered in a protective layer of either linseedoil plus wax, or just wax. So no bad rust and deep pitting at all so far. They don't seem to have been used very much though. All retain really good height of blade. I've been gently cleaning off the grime off of the blades, using a scraper followed by a block and sandpaper. So I'm carefull not to damage the patina or the etches, then oiling with Camellia oil for now. I hope in future (after more research on how exactly to do that) to be able to file them, set the teeth and get them up and running again.

Hopefully someone is able to help me out with the questions I have concerning the saws.


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## bearkatwood

Picked up another filer at an auction just 15 minutes away. Not sure what to do with it just yet besides restore it. If I can convince my son to start sharpening saws along side me it will see some use. Need to reorganize the shop…again.









I love those pattern makers saws, but I don't know what practical application they would have today. I have wanted to make one for a while, that and the moxon saw, but they are so far down on my want list.


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## BlasterStumps

Gosh Brian, you don't happen to have a Acme saw vise you could loan me do ya? : ) Wow! Nice!

I was surprised to see the little Disston saw in a tub of misc. at the Restore. It was late in the day so I assume lots of people saw it but no one took it. It had a very thick coating of rust and something like glue on about half of the blade. I didn't even know it was a Disston until I scraped it for a while with a razor blade. Because of the rust and crap on it, it wasn't appealing and that is probably why it was still there when I showed up. I've been wanting to make a pattern maker's saw mostly just to hang in my tool cabinet : ) 
I might try to sharpen it again when the new file shows. For now though, I will continue to use my home made gents saw for the little stuff. 
Mike


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## 5am

Thanks Brit, it's so cool to see the picture of the Underhill Clinch & Co store in their catalogue. What date would that have been printed? Would you happen to know when abouts they were in business under that name, or how I could find out?

It's a bit weird to me they sold Disston saws out of factory, but (possibly simultaneously but -I think I'm using common sense dangerously- likely earlier or later than your catalogue) also supposedly Disstons with no Disston marks, just the stores etching on the blade.

I only found one other saw online with the same etching. Suppose that says nothing about how many were once made or have survived, the current rarity. Maybe people after the original buyer didn't or don't see the Disston name (or any other well known saw makers brand) and suppose it's not very good. Maybe a lot were used till not much was left to use. maybe the etchings didn't survive very well. Maybe it's a matter of general loss of knowledge / uninterest thus leading to obscurity of such saws with hardware store brands etched on em. It is a bit of a niche of interest probably, and surviving etchings can be difficult to see under a layer of rust and grime, or not noticed and sanded right off.

I agree, it likely is a Disston, based on identical saws on the Disstonian website, plus looking online at saws and shapes of handles of other contemporary major US saw makers. It most closely resembles Disston in all aspects. But that's to me as a novice, using analytical and critical eyes. Could still be wrong. Need to figure out how to get the pics uploaded. Especially now it's cleaned up a bit.

Would I be correct to suppose the warranted superior medal in this case, the blade being marked spring steel, isn't really indicative of a b-choice line / inferior saw?

I can only make assumptions and suppositions about how that saw along with the Warren one ended up in The Netherlands. Would stores like Underhill sends out catalogues and ship tools out to the Netherlands?

I know catalogues for other things like fashion, household items, but also larger things / tools f.i. ploughs and the such for farms were sent to the USA from over here in Europe, and ordering was very much possible. Started to really take off in the 19th C, that practise. It just took quite a bit of time to ship things back and forth. That being said, things could go surprisingly fast, weather permitting. Especially once more or less reliable line services were in place. A slow network of distribution but a network nonetheless.

It does intrigue me, thinking about this story of old saws and their history and distribution.


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## bandit571

In the Disston 1918 Catalog…there were about ..9 saws that Disston would custom etch….might see IF one is close?


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## 5am

Thanks Bandit, I'll see if I can find that catalogue online.


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## TheFridge

One day. I will finish another saw. One glorious day in the far far future when we have flying cars probably. And laser cutting handsaws.


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## Brit

5am - The catalogue was circa 1915. There was a lot of immigration from the Netherlands to America in the 19th and 20th centuries, so it could just be that a Dutch tradesman working in New York bought the saws from Underhill Clinch & Co. and returned to the Netherlands with them later in life. Unfortunately, we all have tools that we wish we knew the history of, but probably never will. If only they could speak.


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## DLK

*5am*, because I now have recently moved to live in Holland, Michigan (with Zeeland as its adjacent city) I am beginning to collect Dutch (or Netherlanders) made tools. I have a complete set of Nooitgedagt chisels and gouges which I love using. I have found several Dutch molding planes at local antique shops and markets and a folding ruler I picked up in Australia. It is unlikely I will find a saw here from saws from Underhill Clinch & Co here but I will keep an eye out for one. Are there saws made in the Netherlands that might have made there way to southwest Michigan? What other woodworking tools made by Netherlanders might I look for?


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## 5am

Brit, thanks for answering the questions. You're right about emigration-remigration as another possibility. It is one that suits Ockham razor, anyway. That's the first explanation I thought about, followed by an emigrant sending them back home to a woodworker, or a ships carpenter travelling or something along those lines. Then I remembered reading original archival records and books about cross Atlantic trade in the 17th-19th C. I think the mailorder thing is possible as an explanation as well. It's amazing to read the original correspondence between buyers, agents, makers and transporters of things in the 19th C. In my case a research sidetrack, so no hard examples.

I started collecting neglected old woodworking tools a few years ago, mainly found them in thriftstores. From most I've figured out the origins, an approximate date of manufacture and (brief) history of the maker. Nearly all are of Western European makers, with the odd exception. The life history of individual tools is another thing entirely. As you said, if only they could speak.


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## 5am

DonK, the older Nooitgedacht tools are branded with j.n or j.n.ij. Sometimes crowned, sometimes accompanied by the word 'garantie' which means guarantee. The abbreviation stands for Jan Nooitgedagt, IJlst. The latter being the place of manufacture, located in the province of Friesland. On chisels and gouges the old logo is usually located front of tool, in the first few cm below the tang. On planes, it depends. The older wooden ones tend to have a stamp on the rear end of the beech plane body, j.n. Or j.n.ij. Sometimes with a number as well, indicating model number. Sometimes the blade of the plane is marked by the same mark stamped in as on the chisels and gouges, located frontside, in the middle of the top. On younger wooden planes usually paper stickers were stuck on. But usually the plane iron is marked. 
J.n.ij. Also made transitional planes, and full metal planes too. As with most woodworking handtools, the pre 1950 ones tend to be better quality. Not that bad tools were made later on, but the quality did drop a bit. After about 1970-1980 the quality dropped a little more, but still generally good tools. The final tools (chisels) produced by Nooitgedagt weren't super fantastic, but aren't all that bad, either.

See this link to a German page maintained by Wolfgang Jordan:

https://www.holzwerken.de/museum/hersteller/nooitgedagt.phtml

Wolfgang Jordan's site is invaluable for finding out more about European toolmakers.

And this page, also in German, shows an overview of logo's and names of German chisel / gouge making factories and sellers.

https://alte-beitel.de/index.php/warenzeichen

There's a forum in French that offers help with French tools too. Outils anciennes http://www.forum-outils-anciens.com/index.php

Another brand of chisels and planes to keep your eyes peeled for is Erik Anton Berg, Eskiltuna. It's logo is a shark. Swedish company, great tools.

In regards to Dutch made saws, I can't really help you out. There's no factory that pops into mind.

There have been smaller sized toolmakers here, operating on a smaller scale than Nooitgedagt, and some made great tools. Van den Sterre wrote a seminal work on Dutch planes and planemakers

https://www.amazon.com/Four-Centuries-Dutch-Planes-Planemakers/dp/9074310621

Might help out finding and identifying them.

Most antique or vintage woodworking tools I find here in the Netherlands are either Dutch (Nooitgedagt), Swedish, German, French or English. Occasionally Swiss and Austrian as well. Vintage planes usually turn out to be either Dutch, French, English or USA-made.

J.n.ij. / Nooitgedagt Also made other tools than chisels, gouges and planes. I have a few wooden spirit levels, and a vintage metal protractor. I know they also made benchhooks, and marking gauges. I'm talking vintage and antique. The recent line / range of woodworking and builders tools was much larger.they also made workbenches.

Another Dutch brand making woodworking tools on a large scale in the 20th C was HBS. Simple Beech Wooden planes and mitreboxes are commonly found here. I think they did a wide range if simple woodworking tools and equipment, including workbenches, but I'm not sure. I believe they were in production until May 2018, when the firm was closed. The logo can be found here:

https://www.holzwerken.de/museum/hersteller/segerink.phtml

Good luck finding those old Dutch tools in Holland, or Zeeland, Michigan. keep your eyes peeled for English, German, French and Swedish antique and vintage tools as well. All usually are good quality, though quality may vary as some manufacturers had several lines using different quality steels for their tools. The Wolfgang Jordan Website can help you figure that out.


----------



## DLK

Wow. Thats a lot of information. It will take a while to digest. Thank you.


----------



## bearkatwood

exactly what I was thinking.


----------



## theoldfart

I just received this twelve inch bow saw. First time i've seen this type of construction.




























It does need sharpening.


----------



## RWE

I really like that style. You are making me think about looking into bow saws. I have passed on a bunch of them, but I am running out of things to accumulate that are different from what I already have. That saw is a beauty. Congrats on the find.


----------



## DLK

> I am running out of things to accumulate that are different from what I already have.
> - RWE


This months winner. .... made me chuckle.


----------



## theoldfart

"different from what I already have" My raison d'être


----------



## bearkatwood

I really like the transition on the ferrules of that bow saw, beautiful looking tool.
Just got a super curly dovetail done. I love getting to play with this highly figured stuff.



















I sure like that laser handsaw idea, looking forward to that.


----------



## chrisstef

Drool ^

Odd thing … buddy of mine delivered me a saw (minus 2 saw bolts) which, when cleaned, looks every part of a 26" D7 1897-1917 rip saw right down to the medallion, qs beech handle and its shape. Tooth line is dead flat and has never been sharpened. However when i went to put the handle back on, the holes wont ever line up. Not even sniffin it. The kerf in the handle isnt even deep enough to accept the plate. Full steel showing in the bottom hole.










Looking closer theres no stamp for the ppi count at the heel and no resemblence of an etch.

Im gonna drill out the plate for the new saw bolt, sharpen it up and gift it back to the guy who gave it to me but it goes to prove "if that saw could talk" lives strong.


----------



## CFrye

That's a beauty, Kevin! How does the top not snap off when the blade is tensioned?
Curly figure is awesome, Brian. You did it justice.


----------



## theoldfart

Candy, I have to assume its the strength of the wood as well as the direction of the grain. I'm still figuring out how much tension to apply.


----------



## 5am

Hi, I managed to take a few pics of the simple Warren No. 82 handsaw I asked about, with hopefully a legible one of the etching.

It says "cast steel, warren no. 82, warranted. Made in u.s.a."

I've found a few companies making tools under the Warren name, but no saws are mentioned anywhere. Mainly axes. It could also be a custom etching for a store, similar to the Underhill Clinch Co one!










Does anybody recognise the etching, please?

Scale in cm.


----------



## 5am

Still having trouble uploading pics, sorry about that.


----------



## kwigly

5am, saw might be a hardware store item, possibly J M Warren & Co, Troy NY, a long lived hardware business still operating at least through 1919. Hardware stores could have saws supplied to them etched to order, and yours looks like the Disston 091 (one of 9 models advertised by Disston in their 1918 catalog as "Special Saws Etched to Order")


----------



## 5am

Thanks kwigly. I managed to find the Disston catalogues mentioned on archive.org. Lots of them, actually. There's a whole subsection dedicated to old hand tools ☺
The Warren saw does resemble a Disston no. 091 as shown in the 1918 catalog. But that lists the saw to have steel saw nuts. This one has brass ones. One of em has a non matching, larger head on it. At least that's not original. But the rest seem original and have a diameter of about 12 mm on the non slotted side and 13mm on the slotted.
It's 24" and seems to be 6 tpi ripcut, but I'm new at this and still learning to figure out tpi and crosscut/ripcut and special cuts.


----------



## Brit

*5am* - You might find it interesting to watch the video I recorded on saw sharpening. As well as showing how to sharpen saws, I cover the tools you need and explain tooth geometry. Seems ages ago when I recorded that now and I can't believe it has had 48k views on YouTube. Anyhow, take a look if you fancy it.


----------



## 5am

Thank you kindly Brit, I'll take a look.


----------



## Sunstealer73

> *5am* - You might find it interesting to watch the video I recorded on saw sharpening. As well as showing how to sharpen saws, I cover the tools you need and explain tooth geometry. Seems ages ago when I recorded that now and I can t believe it has had 48k views on YouTube. Anyhow, take a look if you fancy it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Brit


Brit,

Your video is awesome! I think I finally kind of understand the sharpening procedures. Have you made your SketchUp templates available anywhere?


----------



## Brit

No sorry Sunstealer. I don't have the templates anymore. Most people just draw a series of parallel lines spaced according to the ppi they want and fold it in half over the saw. Personally I would still stick it to each side of the plate with double-sided tape so it can't move when filing. You start filing between two of the parallel lines and as you file down you apply pressure on the back or the front of the tooth as necessary. When you have filed up to the line on the left and the line on the right, it stands to reason that your gullet depth must also be correct.


----------



## chrisstef

D7 ready for another 100 years or so. By far the fastest saw ive ever sharpened. Needed nothing but a freshen up.


----------



## TheFridge

Sunstealer, Blackburn Tools has a variety of printable templates available.


----------



## TedT2

I bought my first handsaw the other day… I'm not sure what I have…it has a pretty straight blade though…I can't find an etch though… haven't cleaned it up at all yet though…


----------



## bandit571

Disston D-8


----------



## TedT2

Thank you Bandit…I appreciate it.


----------



## bearkatwood

Half way through the video now Bandit, very nice job. You did a very thorough job, I liked the visual aids. That saw vise you made is very nice as well, clever putting a spot to hold your file. Thanks for the link.


----------



## DLK

> Half way through the video now *Bandit*, very nice job. You did a very thorough job, I liked the visual aids. That saw vise you made is very nice as well, clever putting a spot to hold your file. Thanks for the link.
> 
> - bearkatwood


 You mean *Brit* I think.


----------



## bearkatwood

Indeed, my bad. Thanks Brit.


----------



## TheFridge

Yeah. Good video. It sounds especially informative when spoken in the Queens English


----------



## BenDupre

Watched it a while back, before subscribing to (lurking on) this thread. Thought it was cool to sort of "meet" the master(s).

Here is a super simple version of Brit's saw vise:










Plywood with oak strips for jaws. Had to plane down the strips to get it to close properly. Couple quick-clamps hold it shut very well. I am still just learning to file saws. The Veritas holder is an excellent training tool.

THANKS ALL for the good advice and rust porn!

Ben


----------



## DavePolaschek

Built the Gramercy Tools turning saw kit over the weekend. Nice little saw! A 12" long 10 tip blade goes through thin stock pretty dang fast.


----------



## chrisstef

I cant recall any information about this medallion from a 24" panel saw i was just given.

It reads Sheffield Warranted with an A inside the crest.










Appears to be a beech handle with a film finish.


----------



## bandit571

Atkins second line saw.


----------



## chrisstef

Thanks bandito.


----------



## Brit

> Indeed, my bad. Thanks Brit.
> 
> - bearkatwood


You're welcome sir.


----------



## JakobS

Hi all, my name is Ko and I'm new to LJ's. I love restoring and making saws and have been at it for about 3 years now, keeping a low profile, a bit shy perhaps. I spend most of my shop time on saws and it's still so very interesting. In the past I would stick to a hobby, vigorously almost, for a few months and then jump onto something else. Certain things would cycle back like fishing and making music but being busy with saws really hasn't let up which is kind of unusual for me. Maybe I haven't yet mastered what I would like to yet.

Yesterday I went to a car boot sale and found this old beat up and sadly eaten up  Wingfield Rowbotham 12" backsaw. I love the shape and curves of the handle and it's in great shape except for the wormholes. The plate is also thinner on the toe and it has kinks. The nuts are not all that, but the back looks OK. Perhaps the back is the only thing salvageable. New plate and handle? What would you do with this saw?










I had a similar instance where the handle had a lot of holes, but it was not in a good shape allround, so I wasn't feeling as bad about chucking the handle. I made a new handle for it, it is a Marples 14".










I used a piece of wood I found on the local hill where the foresters leave the cut logs lying on the ground. I am not sure what the species is, but the grain looks somewhat like a sycamore I think.


----------



## bearkatwood

Did you end up drilling new holes in the plate? I like the contrasting wood, but some might say it takes away from the overall look. Nice work, how's she cut? On he one with kinks, looks like you might have room to retooth and get rid of them, but that is a touchy subject on a nice old saw like this. I would file off the set, use an anvil and flatten that section out as best as I could then resharpen, if that didn't work I would retooth it. Looks like a great saw, I really like the swoop of that lambs tongue.


----------



## Brit

Great restore on the Marples Jakob. You put a lot of time into the plate and back of that saw in addition to the beautifully crafted handle you made. Awesome job!

As far as the Wingfield Rowbotham is concerned, if it was me I would just hang it on the wall.


----------



## JakobS

Thanks guys, I learned it also from you all!

The plate on the Marples wasn't too bad underneath the rust. It had a bend and pitted spot at the toe but most of it came away. To restore the corner on the toe I filed down some of the front of the plate, which was incidentally a little over 14". The back had a little twist which came out well. It cuts very well, it's 11 ppi and I am trying out the hybrid filing with 10 degrees rake and 10 degrees fleam vs Paul Sellers' 0 degrees rake rip filing without any fleam. 0 degrees rake rip is much easier to file and sharpen. Not sure which I like better in the cut yet for both crosscut and rip.

One thing I really like about this saw is the slim back. I have a few backsaws, newer S&J's which have really heavy backs and I find them harder to balance side to side. The Smith's key 12" carcase with the tapered back, that might be nice.

Yes I drilled new holes for the nuts, not with a spade bit but with a carbide tile drill bit. They do break quickly but are easier to find over here, and not expensive. They also do not wander much because they are so pointy. It's something I have had trouble with with the masonry bits.










I bought some nuts from that british factory with the many saw brands which are ok but metric so I had to find a good counterbore for that.










I found a drill bit from homebase which needed some truing but now it does work with those nuts. The more available 1/2" counterbore has a long pilot drill which is very steady in comparison.










The handle will probably darken over time and lose its red colour. It was really bright when I cut the log. It was quite a stunning colour.

Yes Brian, that swoop of the lambs tongue on the Wingfield Rowbotham, that does it. I have not found many saws that have such particularly striking features and well balanced. It's inspiring creativity so maybe it will also inspire hanging from a wall like you suggest Andy.

If I decide to salvage the saw somehow , I will try to make the plate work. Negative taper would be a way to describe the thinning at the toe. It could work with a bit more set there to make up for it.

A plate I recently set on a Disston hand saw was gradually thicker towards the heel along the toothline, and I tried to get an even kerf so I gradually decreased the set from toe to heel. That made it quite smooth cutting. Later I measured the kerf width on a new S&J panel saw and it had a gradualy decreasing kerf width towards the heel! It feels like the saw speeds up towards the end of a cut, very interesting.


----------



## Mr_Pink

I recently bought a Stanley no 60 miter box. The Warranted Superior saw that came with it was in excellent condition; however, the handle was an ergonomic nightmare wrapped in mid-century ugly. My initial plan was to use a rasp and files to reshape the handle for human hands, but I soon found myself sketching curves on the hunk of beech to cut with my coping saw. I left some imperfections so it wouldn't look too new (also out of laziness), and then finished with BLO and garnet shellac.

This is the result:


----------



## donwilwol

Nice work all!


----------



## ToddJB

You guys might be into this

http://lumberjocks.com/topics/289577


----------



## BlasterStumps

I just had to do it! After finding and cleaning up the Disston No 1 that I found the other day, I just had to see if I could put a pattern makers saw of my own making together. I've been wanting to make one for a while now. Here's what I came up with:









Knotty Alder handle.


----------



## JethroBodean

I know it's crazy but that handle reminds me a mitre box I've seen recently! ;-) Nice job on both counts, consider me impressed.


----------



## bearkatwood

I like the look of it, that alder made a nice handle.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Thanks guys. I only used some BLO on the handle. I was surprised at how nice that looks. I can't remember ever using alder wood before so I was not sure what to put on it.


----------



## ToddJB

If any of you fellas are interested I dug into the ACME sharpener -


----------



## DonBroussard

Todd - The Acme Saw Filer is my favorite tool of your haul. It is surprisingly clean, as you pointed out in the video.


----------



## BillWhite

Todd, I enjoyed the vid. Keep 'em coming.


----------



## theoldfart

OK, that's done.









next up is a rebate plane to match


----------



## DavePolaschek

That's pretty sharp looking, Kevin!

Today got this one wrapped up in my shop.










12" blade, so it's a cute little turning saw.


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## TheFridge

Dang Kev . Now you just need to find an 8' giant who can use it


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## DanKrager

Ya, I wanna see a video of that saw running you! Looks really grand, Kev!

And I've never heard the term "turning saw" applied to a coping saw! It IS cute!

Nice work, gents.

DanK


----------



## theoldfart

Thanks all. My first test cut went well, cut a spruce twobuhfour in half length wise. tracked nice and straight and FAST!


----------



## bearkatwood

That thing turned out nice, bring on the big stuff. Great job on the video Todd, I agree, keep em coming.


----------



## DavePolaschek

Thanks, Dan. Gramercy Tools called it a turning saw kit, so once I built it, I figured it was probably a turning saw. But now they call it a bow saw everywhere, so who knows?

Kevin, with mine, thicker cuts like that are good. My big frame saw is still definitely my go-to if I'm going to be ripping a batch of handles out of a piece of 8/4 ash. It's nice being able to plow through a lot of length in a hurry. I just end up fighting the wanders and twisting when I'm trying to resaw thinner, especially asymmetric, slices. But I also read this article from Pop Woodworking so maybe that has my brain wondering about it.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Nice work on the saws Kevin and Dave. I like them both.

Mike


----------



## DLK

> Thanks, Dan. Gramercy Tools called it a turning saw kit, so once I built it, I figured it was probably a turning saw. But now they call it a bow saw everywhere, so who knows?
> 
> Kevin, with mine, thicker cuts like that are good. My big frame saw is still definitely my go-to if I'm going to be ripping a batch of handles out of a piece of 8/4 ash. It's nice being able to plow through a lot of length in a hurry. I just end up fighting the wanders and twisting when I'm trying to resaw thinner, especially asymmetric, slices. But I also read this article from Pop Woodworking so maybe that has my brain wondering about it.
> 
> - Dave Polaschek


I think a turning saw means you can turn the saw "blade" so that it is not cutting in the same plane as the frame. Bow saws cannot do this.


----------



## DavePolaschek

Thanks, Mike.

Don, that's kinda what I figured, but they've changed all their pages (or I was hallucinating) to say bow saw now.

I'm actually thinking about tapering the pins so the blade won't turn as easily in the frame. But we'll see how it goes first with the two I've built. I used the larger one (the oil is still drying on the smaller) to cut out a new case for a hook knife, and it worked pretty darned well, except for the bit where I got the pin twisted about 10 degrees in the handle when I epoxied it in, so I'm going to need to adjust that a bit. It's always something.


----------



## bandit571

Hmmm…









Maple for the frame ( GE HONG Video was the pattern I used) All thread for tension









9ppi Butcher's Meat Saw blade. used the ends from the saw…









Wing nuts to tighten three ends…four end doesn't need one..









Gets fold down into a mortise. 









Takes a bit of practise, to learn how to use. Video ( in Mandarin Chinese) called it a frame saw.


----------



## ToddJB

Kev, that thing is impressive!

Stand-All video is up!


----------



## BrentParkin

Something unique followed me home on vacation. Found this outside Orlando roasting in an outdoor antique place. I really didn't want to touch the handle, but I only had a couple of hours before my flight and it didn't fit in my bag. So I popped into a Home Depot, bought a screwdriver and chainsaw file and made a split nut driver and took it apart. Happily it all came apart easy. It's now safe at home with me on the Canadian Prairies and I have to decide just how to proceed with it. I'm mostly terrified to touch the thing. I also can't find the exact Disston Morss model of it. Does anyone have any ideas?


----------



## bearkatwood

Excited to see what you do with that.


----------



## TheFridge

Me? I'd go fully on it.


----------



## summerfi

Looks like a No. 39 Brent.
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/disston-morss-39-combination-saw-1833644610


----------



## DonBroussard

Brent-Nice pickup on that new-to-you saw. I imagine that the majority of regulars here would have picked it up too. I would have too, just to learn more about it. I've never even seen a picture of that mechanical saw-to-handle marriage before. Please, please post pictures of it after you've prettied her up a bit.


----------



## bandit571

Ok, Wentworth No. 1 came out today….









Dug up a file, and worked on this saw..









Black tape is a grip, and tells me where to grab this saw at..









Test drive when done….crosscut, and 









May just find a use for this saw….


----------



## chrisstef

Great score Brent. I woulda had that one pinned to my chest running to the checkout line.


----------



## BrentParkin

> Great score Brent. I woulda had that one pinned to my chest running to the checkout line.
> 
> - chrisstef


Yeah paid a Princely $8.


----------



## chrisstef

Whoa. You suck.


----------



## bearkatwood

> Whoa. You suck.
> 
> - chrisstef


ha ha ha ha, totally!


----------



## theoldfart

I gave the Roubo frame saw a workout today, or rather it gave me a workout.









6" x 31" hickory! Not the best place to start  My HRM was watching too









It didn't go perfectly but I'm satisfied for a first try. Had to do a mid course correction, veered off by 3/16" 









Just flipped the board around and went at it from the other end










Honest saw dust


----------



## summerfi

That looks like a lot of work, Kevin. Have you thought about building one of these?


----------



## theoldfart

They looked like they worked a lot harder than I did!


----------



## theoldfart

The piece I cut is for a kerfing plane, a la Blackburn. If it works out maybe I'll give the Black Swan a shot


----------



## summerfi

You can do it, Kevin.


----------



## woodcox

This is about as far as we got today. How do you prefer to hold them while rasping around? I have been going at it in my lap with good results. Clamped over the edge of the bench filing down was ok but hard on my back.


----------



## bearkatwood

I took a bold leap on these and lasered the handle. I wanted to mark them in some fashion. The blade was one option, but for productions sake it was easier to do the handle. I was wondering if you guys could give me your input and thoughts on how it looks. These are kind of a collaboration with Patrick Edwards of old brown glue and he was looking to have them be pretty darn close.. nay, exact replicas of his saw, so the departure by lasering the handle was done with much deliberation. Anyway, thoughts??
As for filing, rasping and shaping handles, I use a router where I can to save time and then chuck them up in my hand screw bolted to my bench front.


----------



## JayT

I like it, Brian. It looks pretty deep, must be a powerful laser.


----------



## bearkatwood

About 1/64 or 1/32 maybe, the overall saw is about 6" across.


----------



## summerfi

Laser looks great Brian.

I rasp handles in my standard Craftsman woodworking bench vise. It works fine, but I'd love to try an Emmert model makers vise.


----------



## bearkatwood

Who wouldn't love to try an emmert, those suckers are hard to come by and pricey. I saw a bench for sale through craigslist a while back with an emmert stuck in it, the bench was junk and they wanted over $1,000 but it was almost worth it for the vise.


----------



## summerfi

Yeah, in good shape they go from $700 to $1000. You can get a reproduction for around $300, and I've heard good reviews on them. Still too spendy for me.


----------



## woodcox

I went with the edgrrr vise. He was emmert's bro behind the scenes gettin stuff done. 


















Plumbing I think. This is why you never let anything go! I can spina ma thing and it's frigin solid. I must admit when I saw emmert, I instantly made this. Straight from the top. Thanks fellas lol. Even the maple was found cut at 40 degrees.


----------



## TheFridge

Cox, I second the hand screw in the vise. I also cut a piece off of a scraper about 1/4" x 2-3"ish. It cuts down on a lot of sanding for me. Love me some abranet as well.


----------



## bearkatwood

That is a clever idea, I bet you could make one that worked with the saw bolt holes so in case you didn't have extra lumber to purchase a bolt through. Being at an angle is nice too, clever idea.


----------



## chrisstef

You clever bastard woody.

Id never come up with that. Id sooner tilt my chair to 40 degrees than create an edgrrrr vice.


----------



## JakobS

I found a handy stanley 702 vise and it can be had for little money. Lined it with some leather and cut off the unnecessary screw length. Mounted on a piece of wood and clamped in the bench vise it has many positions for the saw handle. Up and down to get close to your eyes. Vertical or horizontal and under an angle too if you clamp the piece of wood under an angle in the bench vise.


----------



## woodcox

Brilliant Jakob. That looks like it works well for shaping.










It seems I don't have a saw with an acceptable kerf. Closest I have come is a carcass saw chased with a bandsaw blade in my turning saw.


----------



## TheFridge

Damn. Dovetail saws kerf too small?

I tried this



















Now I use this










Tried this for the first time. 1/64 slitting saw. Wasn't sharpened completely the first time I used it. That's what I get for buying cheap. Sharpened It up. It wandered  knew I should've tried in on a spare handle blank. Had to cut a kerf all around for a good cut on the second handle. To almost full depth. Had to epoxy the bad cut on the first handle. Can't throw out a coco handle even if it is messed up.










Finally got a little lasering done. Will have to settle for no etching in the 1" under spine plates, backs, and nuts for now. Eventually I'll have time to get it all done. 6 plates are done so I'll be good for a little while. Have the capabilities to mill my own backs and rough out the bevels which will save some filing time.


----------



## woodcox

I just walked out there and cut the line. I amuse my self sometimes. It's not pristine but it's nice and straight. Widening the kerf hammered the edges a little. Still the top and bevel shaping and now a lot more clean up to do. 


















Very cool Fridge. Are they all to be coco or just your keepers?


----------



## TheFridge

I wish  1 for me, 1 for the provider of coco, 1 for a vet, and the last for a LJ bud here local that gave me a PC router with table when I was in a bind.

I have a handful of others that are Birdseye/figured maple from that sweet man summerfield.


----------



## theoldfart

A little more progress on the kerfing plane


----------



## TheFridge

Nice OF. I hope those are electron free holes… not that I'm judging… I would never do that…


----------



## summerfi

Fridge just called me sweet. Should I be worried?

Since he mentioned it though, let me give some more info on the figured maple. The large, highly figured Norway maple log I sawed up on my sawmill almost 3 years ago is dry now, and I've recently been running it through my planer. I have a large amount of highly figured small boards (around 1/2 to 2 bf each) that would be ideal for saw handles. It's more than a lifetime supply for me. These are basically cutoffs from larger boards since the stuff warped during drying and has to be cut into smaller boards to account for the warping. I've been meaning to list some of these on my website for sale, but just haven't gotten around to it. If anyone is interested, let me know and we'll work out a deal, either through reasonable sale or trade. I don't have any pictures yet, but I can take some if there is interest.

Kevin, the kerfing plane looks great. I know there is a swan in there somewhere, just waiting to be revealed.


----------



## theoldfart

Fridge, Yankee 12" brace and a Ford 1" bit naturally.

Bob, it's stealth swan. Next one maybe! I will say I've used three, no four, of your saw restorations making this. Love 'em.


----------



## TheFridge

Well bob, let's just say it's good thing for you Montana is far away 

TOF, you had me worried. I thought, first smitty. Then you? I couldn't handle it if it were true. Get it? Handle?

I'm sorry. Really. I just cant help myself sometimes. I have issues.


----------



## Brit

Don't ever change Fridge.


----------



## JakobS

Hi

Does anyone have a reference for Atkins saws? I bought one with silver steel and a handle looking like a Disston No 16 that I can't find anything about. Its cut down at the toe and the pitch is 5 to 4 1/2 ppi rip with a slight gullet and no fleam. It's a nice blade and thin for those big teeth, around .032".










The etch is faint but looks like these. The place where the number could be is too faint to see anything standing out.


















Atkins & co is in the top part and Indianapolis in the bottom part, but it has most of the text below the main part as well, like the damaskeened and patent date.


----------



## bearkatwood

> Nice OF. I hope those are electron free holes… not that I'm judging… I would never do that…
> 
> - TheFridge


hu hu funny  That is a nice set of bits there TOF



> I couldn't handle it if it were true. Get it? Handle?
> 
> I'm sorry. Really. I just cant help myself sometimes. I have issues.
> 
> - TheFridge


I love the humor lately, much needed. 
Bob, lets talk turkey, or guinea fowl… I would be happy to trade or purchase some of that wood from you. What would you want for it? 
Ya'all have a good day.

Oh and Erik is a lucky duck, he got a new toy for free he should show off here.


----------



## theoldfart

Sorry I scared you Fridge. Think of it as features rather than issues!

Brian, they were made locally whervwe used to live. Millers Falls bought them out. I like them better than the Jennings .


----------



## summerfi

JacobS - here are a couple references on Atkins saws. I hope you find what you need there.
http://atkinssaws.blogspot.com/
https://archive.org/details/@mark_stansbury?and%5B%5D=atkins

I'm going to try to get some pics of the Norway maple today. I've had a couple people contact me privately, so it looks like there is some interest.


----------



## JakobS

Thanks Bob, I'll delve into that and see if I can find it. 
Its funny that you are attracted to British saws, and I seem to have the same from the other side of the pond and have an atraction to American made saws. I guess the saws are always sharper on the other side!

Ironically, I was reading "a book called "A place to work and live" (on google books) about Henry Disston and his story. In there is described how Henry's brother who lived back in England was often recruiting skilled workers in Sheffield to work for Henry in Philadelphia. Also is decribed that whereas Disston factory made its own steel they also bought steel from England for a long period. That could mean that at least some of the Disston saws were made by British men from British steel!

Edit: including Henry himself of course…


----------



## summerfi

The history of western sawmaking is indeed fascinating. I am drawn to British saws because of their classic design and because that's where it all started. The evolution of saw making in America and how it all relates to the Brits is something few people understand. There is so much to be learned there if one digs into it. Henry Disston, a British lad who immigrated when he was 14, led a monumental life that started in dire hardship when his father died 3 days after arriving in America. Only through that event did he become a saw maker rather than a lace maker. Everyone interested in saws should read his biography written by his grandson. http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/disstonbio.html


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## JakobS

Yes, it's fascinating. The Disston story is quite something, especially how he overcame the setbacks and difficulties. I like also the almost tribe like village at Tacony. It must be special to be part of something like that.

I think I am drawn to the freedom of America. Here in England and in the Netherlands where I grew up there is much restriction on what you can do by law or by what people around you will tolerate. I would like to buy a piece of farmland and build a homestead one day, maybe with a group of people who also homeschool their children, but its nigh impossible if you don't have big money because of regulations.

One russian KGB defector came to America and said it was the only place left in the world where there is freedom and he was concerned for how long it would last, that was in the 70's, as the US is always under attack from multiple angles because of this, from within and without. He also said that some people in Russia were secretly hoping the US would come and bring freedom to Russia. I hope the freedom survives because it's special. Looking at current tension in the US Disston's story may be a comfort. From hardship comes growth if you persevere.

Still a good few of Disston's saw ended up in England ,again because of the help of his brother I think. He would also follow new inventions in England that would benefit Henry and passed it on to him. His own lumberjock he had.

I found one broken old Disston handle and nuts on ebay last summer and jumped on it to restore it. It makes me smile.


----------



## summerfi

Nice job on the handle restoration. It's hard to tell it's been repaired.


----------



## bearkatwood

Wait! What?? That is the same handle?? Holy cow, nice work.


----------



## summerfi

OK, here are some pics of the Norway maple. First pic is a stack of short boards up to about 2' long and random shaped. The maple is on the right side of the pallet. On the left is some elm, and standing on end to the right of the maple is some poplar (populus sp.).










This is a stack of boards from about 2' to 4'. Again, maple on the right, elm on the left. I have some longer boards in the shed, some figured, some not.










I pulled these 4 maple boards out of the first stack at random to show closer as examples. This wood is skip planed, meaning the boards are flattened, but these are still some unplaned patches. Most of the boards are 7/8" to 1" thick, some thicker, some thinner. To sell for saw handles, I would select for boards that would finish at least 7/8". Note that some of these boards have areas of brown heartwood. Some do, some don't. I would say the majority are all white.










Now I'll show closeups of these 4 boards. It's a little hard to show the figure in photos because the wood is so white. These are all highly figured.





































This pic is of the same board shown last above, but I put water on the board to show the figure better. I should have put a ruler in the pics for scale but didn't think about it. I would say this board is big enough for two saw handles, or possibly three small ones.'










I've thought about how to price these boards, and it's not easy because of the odd shapes. Trying to measure them in board feet seems a bit silly. Maybe they should be priced either per piece, or per potential saw handle. In other words, say a saw handle blank is worth $X and a board would likely make 3 saw handles, then the board price would be 3X. You guys tell me what you think these are worth. I'm not trying to get rich, just wanting to get a fair price to offset what I paid for the log and my time in sawing it up and planing it.

I'll end this long post by saying that what I've shown here is about 1/20-th of what I have left to plane. I've gone through a lot of the best figured maple, but there is still some figured maple, a lot of plain maple, a whole lot of elm, and some other mixed species left, both in 4/4 and 8/4. Right now it is under a shed roof where it stays mostly dry, but rain and snow can blow in. Once it's planed I want to make sure it's completely dry, but I don't really have room to store it all.


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## JakobS

Well.. The picture is a bit blurry. Here you see it better. (Edit, the picture gets blurred in the post)









I wonder why the more fresh wood used to patch the handle soaks up the finish (or stain) so differently. It seems the old wood is more empty, brittle, with more capilary action. Could it be the presence of oily sap, which may have dried out or left the old wood altogether? Maybe steaming or boiling the new wood might drive it out…


----------



## bearkatwood

Is there a big difference in the ring size on the handle? Just guessing maybe there would have been bigger summer wood rings that sucked up more finish/stain. Not sure.
Bob, feel free to send me as much of that as you want  beautiful stuff.


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## summerfi

Brian, will that be COD? J/K

I should also mention that I have a bunch of smaller figured maple, anywhere from a few square inches up to about a half board foot, that would be great for smaller projects like inlays, small tool handles, small boxes, etc. I hate to throw anything away. Shipping these in flat rate boxes would make it simple.


----------



## putty

Bob,, I would be interested in some thicker pieces to turn some bottle stoppers on the lathe, 8/4 if you have them.

Thanks,


----------



## summerfi

Putty, what minimum length do you need?


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## JakobS

Brian, yes I think that could be of influence, the size of the rings. I read somewhere that fast growing, big rings is more hard and brittle than slow growing. I will check the piece of apple I used tomorrow to aee the rings. The old handle looks like it has fairly big rings of say 3/16" to 1/4".

I also read somewhere that steaming beech for furniture is done a lot and changes the color of the sapwood to match the rest more. This normally happens over time anyway.

I am going to try boiling a piece of the apple and see what happens. I did this once before on a handle I made from a piece of unknown to me wood which I found while on a walk when my wife was almost two weeks over due with our youngest and doctors were pressuring us into inducing the birth. We took the time to feel whether it was a good idea, since doctors don't know everything and seemed to only see it very practical. We prefer usually more natural ways of doing things instead of forcing and so we decided to wait and everything started two days after by itself.

It felt good for us not to let the doctors decide and tell them we wanted to wait, which was going against the "authority" on the matter and somewhat scary, so I made a saw handle out of the log to commemorate the event, and make it for my son Joshua who was born without complications despite having the cord twice around his neck, the acrobat. He still is all over the place!










Unfortunately it was unfinished for a while, the handle then warped so that it was rendered useless. I was sad about that because of the emotional value so I decided to bend it back in to shape. I boiled it for an hour on the hob and then pressed it under a giant stack of big books to let it dry. It wasn't much straighter at that point. The next morning it was much better and after a light planing it was straight. It did develop a small crack which was filled up with glue and sawdust. It's more brittle I think.

It did look different and it's almost finished now, just the slots and some more shaping, sanding and drilling the holes. The handle ended up a little bigger than my hand so I suspect my son's hands will end up bigger than mine  we will see…









Lovely handle blanks Bob! They will make nice handles I bet. Funny how deficiencies in growth can be so nice looking. Like curly hair that grows faster on one side of the follicle, it can look the part.


----------



## putty

> Putty, what minimum length do you need?
> 
> - summerfi


Bob 3" would be great, I could maybe get by with 2.5" if i wouldnt have to take off too much to square up the ends.


----------



## summerfi

I'll put together a box for you putty. It will take me a few days.


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## putty

thanks Bob, let me know how much I owe you … no hurry


----------



## bearkatwood

JacobS I really like that lambs tongue, great grain on that as well.
COD? Bob I prefer Salmon, but I can pay you however you like. Just let me know what you might want to send out my way. I like the mix there of the light and darker woods, but they all look to have very interesting character to them and should make for some beautiful saws. Maybe a returned chunk with teeth?


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## TheFridge

I might have some interest as well bob. Once I sort my thoughts I'll let you know.


----------



## bearkatwood

This is how an empire starts Bob, you will be the king of online wood sales soon


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## Sawron

All these big full frame saws and foot long bow saws floating around, I'm sitting over here with a little one I made to use pinned 5 inch scroll saw blades with because the skip tooth 18.5 tpi ones are so skinny you can almost rotate them in place in a dovetail saw kerf.









I started out trying to make a full length handle but it felt more natural to pinch the sides of the frame when I turn it anyways so I popped a quirky little rounded cutoff I had been trying to find a use for on one of the bolts I hacksawed a pinned-blade-holder-thingy into the end of.



> Max,
> 
> Nice job on the saws. I believe saws are made with an exposed mortise to allow access to the saw back. Also, it seems like the area above the backs (with your saws) could be prone to splitting. I could be wrong…time will tell.
> 
> - ErikF


Thanks, forgot I had signed up here since I had to switch my newtab setup on firefox shortly afterwards and had to rebuild all my various links and such because I'm too lazy to bother with bookmarks.

I try to work with the grain lined up across them to avoid risking a nasty split over the spine mortise. I've been using almost all of them daily for months now without running into the heartbreaking sensation I kept getting on the ones where I deliberately cut the backs and chopped out room for the spine. After a bit of light to medium use I could start to detect wobble and flex in the cheeks since the material I've got available isn't thick enough to leave a meaty slab of wood linking back to the neck and grip section.

It is fiddly going from slicing a single kerf and chopping a mortise to cleaning out the sides of a mortise drilled with the eggbeater, a partial kerf like you're starting to cut a blind dovetail and forget to chop out the stuff beside it, then floating out the rest until it meets the back of the spine mortise inside the cheeks, but needs must when the only stock you have available barely hits this side of the 3/4" mark before you even start working on it.

Incidentally that figured maple is giving me traumatic flashbacks from my attempts to slice some little boards out of a couple sycamore limbs I picked up that had GORGEOUS shimmery ripples all across the pieces I ripped from it… and sat there laughing at me for daring to assume it would be anything but hateful to work with. Picked up a little chunk of poplar I had sitting around and braced myself after trying to battle through that sycamore… sliced straight down until the spine hit on the first cut, overshot the bottom of the pin I marked by an inch… sheesh.


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## DanKrager

Where is the alder in all this? 

DanK


----------



## theoldfart

Max, that's a pretty cool doodad.


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## TheFridge

It is being hoarded in my shop…


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## Sawron

> Max, that s a pretty cool doodad.
> 
> - theoldfart


I'm pretty happy with the design, I still kinda wanna try making one with just a little more throat clearance but you gotta make tradeoffs and choose to either get the grain lined up consistently across the stretcher section or both of the stressed portions in the upper and lower arms. My first try had an over tight mortise and tenon but it started cracking pretty badly by the time I had proper "pingggggg" tension on the blade so I tried a t-bridle with a bit of play to let the wood rotate a bit and give more leverage on the arms:








(also pictured, two mini-backsaws from a little zona razor saw that overheated way too quickly but made a cute little challenge to make workable)

Couldn't find a piece to get the stretcher section long enough for a coping saw blade but there was a piece of pine that could hold a handle and the longest bolt which fit a knurled wheel off a plane or something? Wound up using it as both a blade holder and rope mount to tighten the blade against. After some more shaping and the alarming discovery ("crrkkk…") that the rope has to be twisted all the way back to the mount to keep it centered it ended up as this guy who's mostly useful for starting kerfs or finishing dovetails in wood with weird grain:









Putting a toggle to let the key slip back and forth avoids worsening the split in the bridle cheek and a nail adds a bit more security there. It works better now as a dovetail or small tenon saw because the rear blade mount doesn't rotate anymore, while the grip makes it awkward for turning cuts which is fine since the throat clearance isn't ideal for them anyways.

Still wish I had some wood I could use to get a bit more clearance for the throat in the one with the little scroll saw blades but none of mine has grain which would cooperate there.

Unless I saw the right shaped branch longways and use the crook for the stretcher, hmmm… TO THE WOOD PILE!


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## bearkatwood

Have you guys seen this saw file test?
http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=280690&d=1376215210

I found it on the Australian woodworkers forum and you might have to be signed in to see it.


----------



## Brit

Yes Brian. It led to a big campaign to get something done about it. Here is the forum post on LJs (http://lumberjocks.com/topics/50943), but there were similar forums on the other woodworking sites. I helped Brett by promoting it on the UK forums. Loads of people signed an online petition. Brett worked with many of the leading saw filers of the time to design new files. I still have a copy of his designs (they're excellent BTW) but I'm sworn to secrecy. He has approached a number of companies to try and convince them to manufacture them, but so far without any joy. We still exchange funny stories every now and again.


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## Brit

That link doesn't seem to work. Use this one: https://www.google.com/url?q=http://lumberjocks.com/topics/50943&sa=U&ved=0ahUKEwiLsZq00aLeAhXNlYsKHZ0hBlsQFggGMAE&client=internal-uds-cse&cx=017914489645407774653:gwwk-zif3wk&usg=AOvVaw2oKnIEq-zycGCwVoeVpFZE


----------



## bearkatwood

Very interesting stuff, thanks for the links.


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## theoldfart

It's a saw. it's a plane. it's …..almost done.










I still heed to do the movable fence but Blackburn is back ordered on the hardware. I'm going to modify the front bevels coverup the tearout.


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## bearkatwood

It's awesome!


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## summerfi

Looks great Kevin. Nice job.


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## theoldfart

I think it was bit ambitious to start out with hickory. It tends to flake on edges so I'm rounding the leading and trailing edges.


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## woodcox

Lots of fun there Kevin. It looks Awsome! I've only wanted to turn the hickory I have.

Any pics of your saw vise Max™️?

I have finally got the paper off this side. Any favorable alternative to locktite light spray adhesive? I thought I'd done a conservative coat. It was a pita to get off. It had been on a few weeks mind you.










The tongue and clip took some lumps along the way. I had to shape further than I'd liked there. Thanks for the word on those abranet papers, Fridge. It stopped the tool mark coursing I had going.


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## DavePolaschek

I use the purple Elmer's stick glue when I need to glue patterns onto wood. It sticks well, and I just hit it with a couple swipes of 120 grit to remove the paper and adhesive once I'm done. And it's non-toxic in case I need to lick the wood or something. ;-)


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## Brit

You could also use double-sided tape. Any residue left on the wood can easily be removed with white spirit. Wipe the residue, leave for 30 seconds, wipe it off.


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## BenDupre

Learned from Scott Phillips - apply blue masking tape to wood, then adhere pattern on the tape using spray. Peels off super easy. Works for scroll saw patterns.


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## Brit

Great idea Ben. An added advatage to this is that you'll get nice clean edges to your hole when you drill through masking tape. Less chance of chipping around the hole.


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## JADobson

Blue tape is a great idea. I've also used the purple stick glue in the past and have had no trouble getting it off.


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## bearkatwood

Clever idea, I question the licking of the wood thing though


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## woodcox

Great, thank you. I think I have both around. MS removed most of the adhesive, a gummy mess. About time to drill. I'm trying for three existing and one new hole through the plate.


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## Brit

Just came back to take one last look at Woody's lovely handle before he messes it up drilling the holes. (Just kidding Woody, I've got faith in you brother).


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## summerfi

That's a nice looking handle WC.

I may be the only one, but I never glue templates to handle blanks. I just trace around the template with a pencil directly onto the wood. I use the templates over and over and have them stored in a notebook, including many that I've modified to my liking.


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## BlasterStumps

I work thru steps when I make a handle. If I mess up on one of those steps, which happens, I will usually start over.

Trace pattern onto wood,
using forstner bits, drill different areas of handle,
cut rough shape using bandsaw and sabre saw
determine a line for the saw plate and cut the kerf
if a spline is involved, I will next establish the relief for the spine
If everything is good to this point then I will drill a very small hole at each location for the sawnuts
Then I determine how big of a forstner bit will be needed for the saw nuts and where I need to drill with a forstner.
Then I will drill for saw nuts, both sides using the appropriate size bits and a depth stop. 
If there is to be a medallion and it requires a relief, I will drill that next
Then if all went well with the drilling, I start sanding, filing, shaping, routing, etc.


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## Sawron

Patterns? Paper? Dang, that's a heck of an idea. I like to trace handles I liked for a general shaping and then cope and rasp and salt and pepper to taste.


> Learned from Scott Phillips - apply blue masking tape to wood, then adhere pattern on the tape using spray. Peels off super easy. Works for scroll saw patterns.
> 
> - BenDupre


Fair warning, blue tape is not good for skin use, I had a cut that kept getting opened on the back of my hand so I rigged up a brace and only had blue tape handy, the bubbly rash was alarming to say the least.

The vise is… rigged, I only last night got a cutout to clear the handles and a swatch of pleather to cushion said handles, just two foot long pieces of wood I used for an experimental cam heddle on a loom I made for the missus, two mitre jointed pieces of wood on carriage bolts through the long pieces, and the bottom of the mitred pieces are screwed into a chunk of some weird log I had that fit after a little time with a chisel.



> It s a saw. it s a plane. it s …..almost done.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I still heed to do the movable fence but Blackburn is back ordered on the hardware. I m going to modify the front bevels coverup the tearout.
> 
> - theoldfart


Nice, I might need to use the bit of salvaged old saw blade I was using as a float to make a kerfing float plane, which isn't quite a kerfing plane, and isn't a plane float, I'll call it… a kerploat!


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## woodcox

Thank you. Yes, I could tell my order is out and after a few more I would likely just work to some lines now that I have felt how to get there. I was happy the paper was there for as long as I have been playing with it. It is a great adhesive, I've just never tried to remove it. Pausing now to think about starting over with a new plate, instead of putting this on the rich bros. I would be better off with a shorter rip saw at the moment.


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## summerfi

Blaster, my process is similar to yours except you need to get a set of counterbores for the screws. Anyone who is still using tiny drill bits to make a pilot hole and forstner bits for the screw heads will kick themselves once they try counterbores. They are amazing for that job.


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## Sawron

Man, I'm using the u-gouge from a cheapo little hobby store chisel set (you know the ones, 12 in a pack, maybe an inch long tangs on generic rounded handles) by scoring the initial circle and then rotating it between my palms like I'm trying to start a fire. This gives a surprisingly crisp edge to the holes-at least until I test fit and get a bolt trapped inside and have to mess it up to extricate it-speaking of which.

Don't know how I went as long as I did without a panel saw, it's only a 14 inch blade but I'm in a pretty compact workspace anyways so I'll put off worrying about a 20 inch or longer one until I get another spot set up, which gives me a reason to work on my little frame/turning saw collection.








The top bolt hole is one which I had to mess up to free the bolt… maddening.

I had a sorta mini-moxon type vise with two quick release bar clamps and replaced it with one of those irwin woodworking vises which I kinda hated because it rumbles when you open it. Putting a spring around each of the support bars means not only does it open quietly, it does so happily. A couple of spins and then you just flick it and it slides out to a little over an inch or so open before stopping.

Why don't they come with those?


----------



## theoldfart

Bob, I priced the counterbors, ouch. Really expensive. Way to much for a one or two off project.


----------



## summerfi

Where were you looking Kev? I don't think they're too bad on Amazon. If you're only doing one saw they're probably not worth it, but if doing multiple saws they're a good investment. Many sizes available. I have the 3/16×1/2 and the 1/8×7/16.


----------



## bearkatwood

I got mine from carbide processors I think. $16 is a good deal, they save so much time.


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## theoldfart

Bob, those prices are really good. May have to visit Amazon.

Edit: Forgot one thing. I use a vintage post drill. Do you think they have them in 1/2" shanks?  the challenge of being a retro grouch!


----------



## summerfi

There must be an adapter for that Kevin. ;-)


----------



## bearkatwood

That is a really good price on that. Here are two that I have ordered in the past.
Open Tip









MSC Direct









Both of these bits were for a 3/4" medallion counterbore and 3/16 pilot, but these companies have bits in the size mentioned as well, kind of comparing apples and oranges. The second was a bit pricier, it seems that amazon has started to carry some more hard to find items and not at a bad price point. I may look there first next time I need to order.


----------



## Sawron

While we're on the subject of counterbores, I don't have equipment to make my own saw bolts, I got some of the rather suggestively named chicago screw sex bolts (which I'm 99% sure is a sexual position) but they lack the inner squared off section so I just roughed up the inner faces and friction fit them against the cheeks.

'Hang on baby, I gotta rough up these sex bolts so I can screw them down snug into the cheeks.'

Heh, but yeah, anybody seen anything interesting on amazon that my search terms missed?

Oh, got access to the phone again so here's the rigged as heck saw vise:









Plus the frame saw I just finished literally a few minutes ago:


----------



## Sawron

When I say the frame saw was finished, I suppose I mean it was in a workable state and I was fairly happy with it…








In hindsight I wasn't totally happy with it but after fiddling with it a little I think I am now. T-bridle joints, added an extra nut on the inside of the far bolt to give a bit of tension even when I loosen the toggle for storage, and snugged the handle down into the frame better after cutting the ends down and shaping the stretcher into a more appealing and lighter form. Also moved the rope notches a bit closer so the key wasn't slid all the way to it's end in the toggle.


----------



## donwilwol

I ordered my counter bores for hand plane tote from Victor.


----------



## Sawron

Well I figured since I have a vise worth worrying about repeatable file angles I may as well see about whipping up a jig. I like having a good amount of slope in my gullets so I knocked the sides of the vise down to expose enough room to maintain said gullets.

The jig is a bit less precise than one of the sliding dowel/adjustable rake/fleam types but sliding the rest along the teeth at the same pace as the file holder lets me keep the angle consistent enough while leaving me free to work in a bit of a progressive profiling as I work toe to heel.









Need a better anvil for setting, I use a flat ended 3/32 craftsman punch I found in an old toolbox, no clue if it was supposed to be flat headed but it works great for putting a bit of bend in the teeth.


----------



## TheFridge

Ou should definitely invest in a saw set. So much easier and faster. Blackburn Tools (among others) has brass split nuts in a variety of sizes.


----------



## Sawron

I'll have to check around, but yeah if I wanna dabble in anything like trying to sell them I'd wanna get a faster method than tinking with a hammer and punch.

Accidentally stresstested my carcase saw a little too hard earlier, saw a couple of loose 2×4's I hadn't noticed before on the deck and had a strange urge to go slap them together in a big chunky dovetail joint, was sawing out a bit of the waste which was at a weird angle to get with the chisel and heard that heartbreaking "pop" muffled by my hand.

Randomly had an earlier design I tried in the walnut with a dinky little camping saw blade in it sitting up on the wall which I had forgotten about. Thankfully I was able to coax that into a more pleasing shape with a bit more meat where the previous fracture was.









The handle I was using was actually the left over material from cutting a different handle, so I had to make some compromises from the start because it was a little difficult to fit enough grip there in the first place.


----------



## theoldfart

Well, the damned thing worked first shot!


















Once i get the ends kerfed I'll tackle the resaw.


----------



## Sawron

I wish I could say grats on it working… but god that looks like a pain to resaw… my lower back, shoulders, upper back… basically everything hurts thinking about resawing that much wood.

Had to grudgingly admit to myself that I think I like this one more than my dovetail saw after not only getting the handle reshaped properly and oiled up, but using it to cut dovetails in a rather cranky bit of knot-adjacent pine that flat out refused to cooperate with the little saw.








Laugh at 18 tpi rip will you? EAT 11 TPI CROSSCUT! Knotty jerk punk something-or-other…


----------



## theoldfart

Actually, not much pain at all. Technique is everything.










Got a little too aggressive with the wedges, so wound up with a little splitting. Going to hit it with the heft and hubris tomorrow.


----------



## TheFridge

Kevin is man. It's more impressive considering you're an old fart.


----------



## DanKrager

Ya, Fridge, an barely tall enough to run that Paul Bunyon saw on his tippy toes!



> Kevin is MAN. It's more impressive considering you're an old fart.
> 
> - TheFridge


There. I fixed it for ya Fridge.

DanK


----------



## DavePolaschek

Nicely done, Kevin!


----------



## tshiker

Fantastic Fart!


----------



## theoldfart

Thanks all. Tom, good to hear from you again. Did you make to the NWA show this time?


----------



## Sawron

Hah, technique and a gigantic frame saw to heave around!


----------



## Brit

Love it Kev!


----------



## bearkatwood

sweet, who needs a bandsaw?


----------



## JethroBodean

So I'm kind of excited, I think I found a couple of interesting saws over the weekend. We spent a couple of nights out of town so I stopped at the local restore. They had a bucket full of saws that were all a dollar each. I found a pair of E.C. Atkins saws with brass hardware. After scouring the 1906, 1919 and 1923 Atkins tool catalogs, I believe I have a No 53 Hand and Panel saw from around 1919. I base that on the design on the handles the shape of the plates and the brass hardware. The plates are pretty rusty so I'm not holding much hope that I'll find an etch, but you just never know.


----------



## donwilwol

you just never know about the etch. Sometimes you find an etch where you simply would not have believed it possible.


----------



## tshiker

No not this time Kev. Jethro, just use a single edge razor blade scraper and go length ways. If there's an etch left it should show up. Nice find!


----------



## Sawron

Finally got it shaped so all the pinch spots were eliminated, it balanced right, and I tapered the cheeks down after fixing the tearout around the bolt holes but that presented a new problem.









It was too pretty to hold, so I recruited my lovely hand model to assist.








Much better.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Max, looks like you are having fun with the saw. Glad it is working and fits better. Nice work.
Mike


----------



## Sawron

It's the first break I had with this design incidentally, but it wasn't across the back, just that weak spot on the handle.

Now to pick another project to use it for so I stop gazing at it lovingly.


----------



## BlasterStumps

summerfi, I just wanted to say thank you for sharing the information on the counterbore tools. I don't own any yet but will keep them on the priorities list. Thanks again. 
Mike


----------



## BlasterStumps

Cool find Jethro on the Atkins saws.


----------



## Sawron

I know I saw one of you mention being in the Memphis area, know any good rusthunting spots out in the Germantown-ish area in case I get a bug for it?


----------



## summerfi

You're welcome Blaster. Once you get them, you'll be glad you did.


----------



## bearkatwood

they are a game changer. How was this last fire season Bob?


----------



## summerfi

Brian, I was out a total of 76 days on 5 fires in 5 different states, so it was a busy year. That seems to be the new normal. Montana wasn't so bad this year though.


----------



## Sawron

I envy the walnut chunks you're playing with over there… the gorgeous Montana backdrop doesn't hurt anything either, I find myself checking trees when I'm out, looking for those alternating paired leaves+single end on a big sprawl of branches and hope to find piles of walnuts on the ground underneath… so far no luck.


----------



## RWE

Picked up a flawed but rare in my part of the country saw today. It is a William Marples and Son LTD. carcase saw.

It has Special - Sheffield Eng. - Quality on the stamp on the back. I got it for $12 bucks. I have found some images from the Marples catalogs that list a "Cheap Back Saw" and under that there is a line for "Special". Maybe that is what I have. It was certainly cheap to me at the Antique Mall.

Do we have any Marples folks out there in LJ world that can shed some light on this saw? I asked SummerFi via email and he guessed it was a 40's -50's saw which is what I think as well.

Once I clean and restore it, I will post back here. In the meantime, any ideas about the saw, the age and the quality compared to an equivalent Disston would be welcomed.

It is 12 inches, about 2 and 7/8 inch of plate below the back at the toe. Summerfi said it would be 13 ppi and I had counted 12, but on review it is 13 ppi.

I've got to scrounge around and see if I can find a little bit of Beech for the repair. Horns are in great shape. Someone seemed to have had difficulty in removing the back. It is almost off at the heel.

The plate is very straight and I think the pitting will be minor. Should sharpen very nicely.










Stamp









back side, a little "extra" paint.


----------



## Brit

*RWE* - Here is your saw (model no. 2526A) in Marples 1938 catalogue. Sold as a Joiner's saw with a Bright Steel back.




























In my opinion, a Disston No.4 from the same period would compare with the Marples Best Quality Bright Steel back. As I'm sure you are aware, a lot of the terms used to sell saws such as 'Best Quality' and 'Superior' were nothing more than marketing BS. Most working Joiners who handled these tools every day of their working lives wanted saws that worked well and lasted a long time. They probably didn't really care if the saw had a brass back, a medallion or a lamb's tongue. Companies who sold these saws knew this and got very creative in terms of their marketing and offered 'practical' lines that were a bit cheaper but worked just as well as their more expensive and perhaps more elaborate lines. They knew their markets and ensured the saws and their prices matched them.

Another thing to realise is that Marples did not make saws. They stuck their name on saws made for them by other firms and they were by no means alone in doing this. You might be interested in the following article written by Simon Barley where he speaks about this in more detail: http://taths.org.uk/tools-trades/articles/50-when-was-a-sawmaker-not-a-sawmaker. Perhaps it is no surprise then that your saw bears more than a passing ressemblance to the No.14 made by Tyzack, Sons & Turner in their 1949 catalogue. Bear in mind that there is 11 years difference between these catalogues, so that could explain why the handle is less refined than yours. This is just my opinion though and I can't prove it.










Of course whilst all this might be interesting, it does not detract from the fact that your saw is a great find, especially for $12. As you can see from the second image, there was an etch on the plate when it was made. Hopefully you'll rediscover it under the crud.


----------



## RWE

Thanks to Brit for the great and informative reply. The article by Simon Barley is quite interesting. Nothing beats a definitive answer, down to the model number and the year.


----------



## Don2Laughs

Hi folks…just dropping in as I do to see if I'm close to earning my bones for inclusion in this venerable company of sawyers! Wanted to post a gloat…our SDFWA has an 'Old Tool Swap Meet' 3 times a year and it's a doozy! 
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f345/Don2Laughs/IMG_0874.jpeg[/IMG][/URL[/URL]]
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f345/Don2Laughs/IMG_0878.jpeg[/IMG][/URL[/URL]]
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f345/Don2Laughs/IMG_0874.jpeg[/IMG][/URL[/URL]]
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f345/Don2Laughs/IMG_0884.jpeg[/IMG][/URL[/URL]]
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f345/Don2Laughs/IMG_0886.jpeg[/IMG][/URL[/URL]]
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f345/Don2Laughs/IMG_0886_1.jpeg[/IMG][/URL[/URL]]
The saw with the steel reinforced handle has something like "----Adams & Co--and, I believe an eagle face pointed toward handle..26" RIP, The other has 'OlympiC' Hand Made etch. 22" Xcut. Really would be nice if anyone recognizes these and could point me in direction to learn about them. They are in great shape and I'll have them cleaned and sharepened soon.Thanks for any feedback!
Don


----------



## Sawron

Use bangs (exclamation marks) around your image link, and I'd bail from photobucket to literally anywhere else if I was you. I'm a fan of imgur, as long as reddit exists imgur will.


----------



## Don2Laughs

Max, did the links not open for you? Thanks for the advice…I'll see what I can do. I was amazed when photo bucket opened up for me…I thought I had lost all my old photos from years ago…but I hit the old bookmark and they all opened for me. I'm not much of a tech guy but maybe I can investigate, learn & do better.


----------



## Sawron

I couldn't get the images to load up on here because they're using img tags, and I deliberately keep a fairly updated copy of vivaldi if I ever feel like punishing myself and try to check sites that my firefox/ublock/umatrix/privacy badger/excessively restrictive default permissions break so badly I can't even diagnose why they're broken.


----------



## summerfi

Here's something different. Not very practical, but definitely different. Gives new meaning to the term "hand" saw. Watch the video here.


----------



## bearkatwood

hmmm. That is something different.
I watched the video and really like that guy, amazing craftsman with a sense of humor that I get. Cool find Bob.


----------



## Sawron

Something about that grabs me the wrong way.

Think I've decided to cut my 14 inch sash saw down because it's too damn floppy and I don't need as much throw as it offers, and I rarely end up needing more than 7 or 8 inches of the teeth on there, so I'm leaning towards cutting it down, turning the front toothed half into a little dovetail saw, then making a pair of mini-panel saws from the remaining rectangle.


----------



## bearkatwood

I am thinking about making my next 12" carcass saw have a foot for a tote  hu hu.
I can't understand some of these miniatures I have been seeing, they are so wonderfully crafted, they are better than many full size versions. The person who makes these is Marco Terenzi, an incredibly talented craftsman, some of the miniature tools he has produced defy logic. His stuff is at @terenzi_miniatures on instagram and his website


----------



## PPBart

> I ve said it before and I ll say it again. Totes don t get any better than this:


Beautiful! That makes me think about creating new totes for my old plain-Jane saws…


----------



## JADobson

Terenzi's work is so cool.


----------



## TheFridge

Yup. Looks like he set the teeth too.


----------



## bearkatwood

probably used an electron microscope to set those suckers and it probably works flawlessly. I hate him just a little.


----------



## ToddJB

Part 2 of the Acme saw filer






Had some issues during the export for some reason mid video… oh well


----------



## bearkatwood

Still no takers yet? Wow, you did a lot of work on that thing. I have a couple of them over here that could use some love if you feel like traveling Todd


----------



## ToddJB

I haven't been pushing it. Just uploaded in video to some FB groups. Hopefully, it goes.


----------



## TheFridge

It's ok Brian. I thought to myself ,"That looks so sweet. That A-hole."


----------



## Sawron

> I am thinking about making my next 12" carcass saw have a foot for a tote  hu hu.
> I can t understand some of these miniatures I have been seeing, they are so wonderfully crafted, they are better than many full size versions. The person who makes these is Marco Terenzi, an incredibly talented craftsman, some of the miniature tools he has produced defy logic. His stuff is at @terenzi_miniatures on instagram and his website
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - bearkatwood


Delightful!










> Part 2 of the Acme saw filer
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Had some issues during the export for some reason mid video… oh well
> 
> - ToddJB


Yeah I was noting around: 



 it started getting a little… weirder than usual.


----------



## bearkatwood

I hope so , I would like to see you get paid from that wild shopping trip, thanks again for the Standall, I am the only kid I know that has one. 
Does anyone else in this forum know of one in use?


----------



## TheFridge

If I was a saw. It would let it rub against me.


----------



## bearkatwood

Just saw a bench top version of the ACME on Ebay.
ACME saw filer


----------



## ToddJB

Yeah, I'll go to Ebay if it doesn't sell fee free.


----------



## Sawron

I'm not even sure what part I'm supposed to insert myself into and worry I may have misinterpreted something.


----------



## bandit571

IF I had the space in the van, and the extra garage sale cash…









This, and it's partner would have been coming home that day..









Didn't have either the space, nor the $20 or so each at the time…
.








Didn't even have room for the scrollsaw. And, I have always wondered who got the lathe




























Was even a large box of tooling sitting on the floor..









And a steady-rest. From an estate sale, 2 years ago…


----------



## Sawron

Is there much worse than rasping your knuckle while shaping a handle?

I can't really think of too much that combines the instant shocking burst of pain, the annoyance over the slip-up, and the frustration as it throbs now and then while you continue working.

Spent a while this morning getting a bit of a headache while hacksawing a saw in half and halving the cutoff longways, my rigged up saw vise was surprisingly handy for holding the cutoff section while I worked on it, zero dings, zero scrapes, everything went great.

Drew out and cut a handle for the little dovetail saw I was making, rounding off the last bit of waste and setting the corners up for final shaping… DOINK… right across my knuckle as I turned it to scrape the last bit off with the rasp.

Really happy with how tight the little tenon saw feels now, as a 14 inch sash it was far too long, too floppy for the spine material I think, but at 7 inch it feels like it was milled from a single piece of material, as does the toothy little dovetail saw I drilled holes in and mounted in a chunky little handle I designed:

















It's so cute yet eager to work and friendly to hold, think it wants to dethrone my 10 inch dovetail saw as a new favorite, feels like I'm cheating on the other one now.


----------



## TheFridge

Trying to get back on the wagon.










Will finish another saw one day.


----------



## Sawron

Not often you get to say this to another man without it being misinterpreted, but nice wood, what is that?


----------



## TheFridge

It is cocobolo. It'll definitely be misinterpreted


----------



## Sawron

Oh baby, I'll coco your bolo. *eyebrow waggling commences*

So far the most exciting wood I've gotten to play with is a slab of walnut someone used for a porch step and painted grey years ago. Saw it with some stuff at the curb and went to lift it, damn thing weighed way more than it should so I grabbed both and scraped the paint off, got it scattered in various projects and stuff all over the place.

When I was rehandling my main dovetail saw the only suitable piece I had was just barely big enough to hide a handle, and I love how silky smooth and delicate it feels, but I cringe sometimes because it was just too damn thin, so I had to slap a more sizable hunk of the pine I've got laying around with suitable grain direction until a handle resembling the one I put on the cute little 7 inch saw fell out and dammit I love it, but I wish it was mint-chocolate-chip like the walnut. T.T










They're just so friendly and sturdy feeling after the compromises I had to make with the walnut chunks.


----------



## waho6o9

Cool thread. I used some evaporust on the metal and some wax on the handle. Then wiped it down 
with Simple Green.


----------



## TheFridge

I need some beech in my life. Beech with some garnet shellac. Mmmm.

Getting closer. An hour to shape the end and another hour to two to cut the teeth (if I don't mess up too bad  and a Christmas present is done.










So that pretty much means it's gonna take me another 5 hours to finish it up 

Cell phone pictures suck


----------



## Sawron

Good luck on the teeth man, cutting from scratch is definitely one of the most frustrating things I've tried. Not even interested in showing the first experiment, jagged mess I intend to recut later. Gonna do the printout+hacksaw method?

Sharpening is tedious but worthwhile, polishing is annoying making sure you keep track of any metal dust removed, though having a magnet handy to brush your fingers off on helps, and drilling/filing bolt holes is various levels of annoying. Fresh cutting is just such a hassle, gotta focus the whole time but you don't want to get sloppy, but there's always the risk of not getting yourself properly lined back up after you return from a break.

Blade slots and mortises are finicky but the hardest part is over once the initial cuts are set in place and lined up straight. Bolt holes aren't as annoying because I don't have any with a square section to fit yet, but I drove myself a bit nuts with my early experiments using hex nuts on the back side, at least saw bolts hide the squared off hole inside.

Speaking of, never took a picture of the slot/mortise thing I have been doing, and I love how this one makes the blade look transparent from the reflection which I didn't even notice while taking it.








Gotta make sure those back side bolt slots are lined up the same way!








Finally got the shaping done to fit my personal aesthetics and refined to hold my hand perfectly.








Been enjoying it a lot since I stopped trying to make handles look a certain way and started making them feel a certain way when I use them. Either way it's fun playing with different shapes until you find yourself really happy with one and hear or feel a crrrkkk you didn't expect.


----------



## TheFridge

Pretty much. I probably should use a hacksaw but keep forgetting to pick one up.

Carbide drill bits are your friend.

Having a mill has made a couple steps easier.


----------



## Sawron

Hah, there's a newb moment, I have no clue what type of mill you're referring to there, I assume it isn't a lumber mill, pepper mill, dollar slang mil', rumor mill, and I start running out of references to link to the word that would be useful for making a saw at that point.

Don't have anything powered-as much from preference regarding noise/dust/physical feedback as due to lack of funds to afford any tools which aren't me-powered-so I'm guessing that's where the "error: attempt to deref null pointer" thing my head is doing came from.

I did however realize my rigged vise is no good for setting teeth with a flat-sided screw like Sellers mentioned, so I put together a little saw brace to use while tinking teeth, don't mind the messed up thumb/finger, that was the rasp incident from the handle shaping earlier.

















I really need to do some rust hunting and see if I can't pick up some older tools to restore now that I have a better idea of what I can directly make use of… oh gods, this is how it all starts isn't it?

Go out looking for a saw set and maybe a rusty cheapie to practice restoring… suddenly I'm wondering if there's a way to make a saw till till for my saw tills because the ones I have are too numerous but too crowded as is…


----------



## summerfi

Just finished up a matching pair of backsaws built around vintage Thomas Turner brass spines. The handles are Bubinga. I've listed these and a few other restored saws for sale on my website.


----------



## TheFridge

Drool


----------



## Sawron

Don't drool on them, you'll mess up the painstakingly buffed finish!

Got a new camera (had an old galaxy core prime, got a moto g6 now) and while I was trying to figure out how the various gadgets in the camera setup worked I accidentally went all artsy with this picture and the blur effect.


----------



## putty

Nice work on the saws Fridge and Bob, they are beautiful!


----------



## Sawron

Well that turned out much better than my first try at cutting teeth.








Still need to add some set and finish up the polish but it's already surprisingly usable.









I mean, usable for something you basically wear like a ring, but yeah, I can think of several times when I reached over for a frame or coping saw because my 20 inch panel was overkill but none of the backsaws would work right, a short 3 and 3/4 inch line of crosscut teeth and a little bit of handle, already thinking of stuff to work it into the flow on.


----------



## TheFridge

Thanks put. Finished another one. For the provider extraordinaire of the cocobolo. Gonna be a wall hanger. Need to build a small display case for it. All in all a show of appreciation for hooking me up with various items of much greater value than the work I put into this saw.

17ppi 1-1/2"ish under spine and renaissance wax to finish. Man I wish cocobolo wouldn't oxidize.





































Discovered that using a big mill file after drum sanding the template off is worth the effort. Card scrapers we're leaving valleys on each side of the nibs. File is a bit slower but easier to control.


----------



## DavePolaschek

Wow, Fridge! What kind of alder is that? It's a pretty one!

Nice miniature, Max.


----------



## Brit

> Man I wish cocobolo wouldn't oxidize.
> 
> - TheFridge


What do you mean by oxidize Fridge? Do yo mean it develops a bloom?


----------



## TheFridge

It's cocobolo flavored alder 

Brit, it's fresh cut color is nothing like what you see. Purples, light reds, cream white and black. Shavings turn dark red brown color overnight.

I


----------



## bandit571

About like this?









Millers Falls No. 9

Found a use for this saw..









Besides doing dovetails….Disston No. 4, 14" long. Much easier to use than it's bigger brother..









Doing shoulder cuts….


----------



## Brit

Gotcha.


----------



## CFrye

> - Max™


GASP! I love it Max! I may have to try one of these. 
Fridge, your saw is beautiful, too. I have one of similar size with a maple handle.


----------



## Johnny7

*Fridge*

It's a thing of beauty.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Candy, what method do you use to make the holes in the saw plate? 
Mike


----------



## Sawron

Seems a shame to hang that little guy up after prettying it up so much, Fridge.


> GASP! I love it Max! I may have to try one of these.
> Fridge, your saw is beautiful, too. I have one of similar size with a maple handle.
> 
> - CFrye


The little one is adorable isn't it? Reminds me of a little grasshopper nymph for some reason.









One of my packages came in the other day with something I've been eager to try, I've got a frame saw for 5 1/2 inch pin end scroll saw blades which I love, and then I noticed they make sanding belts that fit scroll saws so I had to try it and folks… I don't know if I can go back to sanding blocks or holding little bits of folded sandpaper.

They don't seem to go higher than 220 in belt form BUT unlike a saw blade it's safe to wrap sandpaper around, so I put a little clip on the end so I can keep it stable with my finger and work with the little bit of flex in the belt to keep the paper flat enough for flats while following curves nicely.

Used it to finish up shaping after a bit of filing with a half-round, cut a couple more teeth in the heel end, and touched the rest a little to even everything up before tinking them with my flat-sided screw head to put a bit of set on so it cuts remarkably well.


----------



## TheFridge

Thanks Johnny 

Carbide spade bits drill thin tool steel like butta.


----------



## CFrye

> Candy, what method do you use to make the holes in the saw plate?
> Mike
> 
> - BlasterStumps


Mike, I have not made a saw that required plate drilling as of yet. The maple handled saw I was referring to was a gift.


----------



## Sawron

Cute little saw, I've taken to calling those the "Gramercy swing" in my head, with the delicate shape+kicked up grip position.

As for the bits, gotta mark them well, destroyed a little bit remarkably quickly before I noticed the give I felt and shavings I saw weren't from the plate. Lately I use an egg beater brace and clamp the blade against a piece of wood, usually after drilling a position hole in a scrap bit to line things up better, then apply some push and crank until silver stuff goes flying everywhere.

Realized I hate metal hacksaws, wanted to make a frame one but lost my 10.5 inch hacksaw blade… then I remembered the sandpaper cutter on the far side of my little bench…


----------



## BlasterStumps

Candy, If you decide to make a small saw, I recommend a hole punch for metal. I have drilled a few holes in saw plate but consider that method a little dangerous unless you have the proper bit. Clamp it down tight if you drill. I think the bit should be a titanium step bit so it can't pick up the plate and spin it. The punch is my preferred method.


----------



## bearkatwood

I like the carbide single flute bits, but recently bought some punches and they work nicely, Use a hss rod that is the diameter of the hole and grind it in a lathe or drill press to have a nice point then use it to locate the hole location so you can center the punch. Most of the time I use the single flute bit though. Some cool small saws up there.


----------



## CFrye

Thanks for all the tips! Pretty sure there is a step bit in the shop. Have to determine if it is titanium. 
I need to remake my hacksaw frame saw. I didn't scale the frame size down enough and it is kind of unwieldy/top heavy.


----------



## bandit571

Candy: Stop by Harbor Freight, they have those step drill bits, supposed to be Titanium coated…Maybe $6 or so for that pair…

Random saw shot…









14" No. 4….


----------



## Sawron

Hrrm, went overboard with the blur, far side of the saw wasn't in the focus range apparently.


----------



## DanKrager

That's pretty cool, Max™. That could compete with Knew Concepts if it had a tiny blade, IMHO.

DanK


----------



## Sawron

That's mah hacksaw, ain't nowhere near in the same room elegance wise as those wonderfully over engineered gadgets they make, but it works well enough to cut up stuff like cheap saws and paint scrapers.

Used this last night:









To turn a paint scraper blade into a sleek little dovetail blade so I could slot it into one of my favorite-but over-delicate-walnut handles after making it even skinnier and sleeker to fit the overall proportions better:









Coulda left a bit more meat under the spine there, but the only spine I had handy was from a little zona razor saw that finally went from "prone to overheating induced S-curving" to "straight up torn near the front of the spine" so I didn't want to try to rework such a delicate and thin blade, but the idea of a little 6 inch dovetail saw with an inch of blade depth and a slight cant, well, that just sounds fun.

It joins the little 3 inch panel saw as the second of many blanks I've sized up, shaped, cut fresh teeth from scratch, set, and mounted.









What's the current hotness in saw files, folks? Got a couple of kobalt ones I grabbed a while back for maintenance sharpening, a random no-name pair from one of those project source multi-piece file kits, and an old as balls and twice as rusty craftsman file I found in the bottom of a tool bag in the storage room.


----------



## TheFridge

Finished another. One left to do in this batch.



















Mini family shot 










Learned something new with every saw.


----------



## donwilwol

That's a great shot fridge! There is some fine work there.


----------



## DonBroussard

Nice work, Fridge. Your family glamour shot looks like a potential magazine cover.


----------



## theoldfart

+1 Fridge, well done saws.


----------



## summerfi

Nicely done Fridge. The learning part is the fun, right? It's like figuring out a big puzzle.


----------



## BillWhite

Great job there Fridge. How about an up-close pic of the etch? I'm sure that somebody in our home would be proud to see it in action.


----------



## bearkatwood

First rate Fridge, those look beautiful, very classy.
Loving those miniatures as well, what a fun forum to follow.


----------



## TheFridge

much appreciated fellas. All you can do is the best you can do. Can't ask for anything more. Hopefully I can get another chunk of coco and make some heirloom pass to the son kinda stuff for myself. Though next time, I won't use .015. Distorts if the laser runs too hot and gets crooked if you breathe on it wrong.

Yep Bob, I know what I want to do for most operations but I'm still figuring it out saw by saw.

Will do Bill

Graphics courtesy of Maggie White (the better half of Bill  at MAGraphics

Laser not quite hot enough










Laser a lil too hot


----------



## putty

Nice Fridge, I see the Cajun influence in the etch!


----------



## TheFridge

Yeah putty!  had to have a fleur de lis. The possum and gator wouldn't fit


----------



## dbray55

Sweet!!!


----------



## BlasterStumps

My hat is off to you Fridge. Nice work on them saws. Pretty nice.

Before Thanksgiving, I started cleaning up a real small Jackson. I can barely grip the handle with my big mit. The saw plate is straight, no bends or wows. The saw is cleaned now but I will have to choose my time for sharpening it when I can see fairly good. It is, if I remember correctly, something like 15 PPI. Someone left it with calves and cows so bad that I will have to almost start over on the teeth. I might have to set the low-power, boom, zoom microscope up and file the teeth looking thru the m-scope. It might be a nice little saw if I can sharpen it properly.


----------



## woodcox

Talk to me grey goose.









A sloppy second from cyber Monday. It cuts nicely.

Nice Jackson, Mike.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Woodcox, nice find on the saw. That's going to be a beauty when you get it all done. Love the handle pattern you have chosen.

I tried going out to my garage for a few minutes this morning to see if I could mess around a little on a plane or saw or something but, didn't take me very long to decide I still need a couple days of recuperation time so, hopefully, I can get a little more steam up before going out. And my shop was 55º so really not very comfortable.

I'll stay tuned to see your finished saw. 
Mike


----------



## DLK

What? I'm happy when I can get my shop up to 40º, 55º would be heaven!


----------



## summerfi

Yeah, 55 - 60 is the ideal working temp. Warm enough for glue to dry but not so warm as to get you sweating when you do actual work.


----------



## TheFridge

55? I am not a man.


----------



## JayT

> 55? I am not a man.
> 
> - TheFridge


We knew that.

55-60 is a great working temp range for me, as well.


----------



## Mosquito

I usually keep my shop at 60, unless I'm applying finish, at which point I turn it up to 70. Paid for the big 95% efficient furnace, might as well use it


----------



## PPBart

> ...Mini family shot
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Really beautiful work!

And I just saw that you're in Prairieville(?) I live in Denham Springs, but have a daughter and her family in Prairieville, so we're practically neighbors. <g>

Geaux Tigers!

PPBart


----------



## TheFridge

Yeah buddy!


----------



## BlasterStumps

55º is normal for my workshop area as well. It's okay temp for me too, when I'm not suffering from a bronchial infection. I will get better!


----------



## Sawron

I've gotten used to thinking in Celsius so this whole series of posts was very alarming last night because I had been up for a long time fiddling with my saw vise/filing setup and 50º Celcius is like 132 F?

As for the fiddling results, at some point my loopy half-asleep brain decided it should go about setting up a little mount for the toothed chunk of an old cheapo saw I cut in half a while back and I was pleasantly surprised when I woke up to discover that it works wonderfully for getting those first slippery cuts across your freshly jointed plate lined up nice and neat.









Had to clean up various parts of the prototyping stage of course, and then go about actually doing the full filing.









At some point I apparently lost the screw with a flat side on the head which I had been using to set teeth but sleepyMax is freaking macguyver sometimes.








Thanks sleepyMax, though he did a half-ass job putting these away (the frame hacksaw was tensioned still, files in completely wrong bins, not sure what I was doing with the half-round to be honest) it worked out in the end and the saw cuts like a delicate little chainsaw.


----------



## Sawron

Missus showed interest in doing some light sheet metal work and sure, I could let her use one of my coping saws but then I wouldn't have an excuse to make her one from scratch!








Swapped the toggle from my scroll saw blade dovetail waste remover and put one of those double bolt toggles on mine, letting her use the prettier walnut slide which also gave it a much lighter and more balanced feel in hand.

Don't suggest a project which a budding saw wright can interpret as an excuse to make a new saw!


----------



## bandit571

or…









and..


----------



## TheFridge

It's been in the 40s. Haven't been in the shop because I am a loser…


----------



## BlasterStumps

I don't blame you for not going out to play in 40º weather. It's 32 here right now but my shop gets some heat from the piping of the heating system so it is about 55. I can play in 55 if I dress warm. : )


----------



## GrantA

I haven't looked at this thread in a while, fridge those are amazing! I've been wanting to make my own dovetail saw- do you buy or make the backs?


----------



## TheFridge

Thanks bud. I bought those from Blackburn Tools. Will make my own soon. Will also try some folded backs from Florip Toolworksat some point.


----------



## BillWhite

> much appreciated fellas. All you can do is the best you can do. Can't ask for anything more. Hopefully I can get another chunk of coco and make some heirloom pass to the son kinda stuff for myself. Though next time, I won't use .015. Distorts if the laser runs too hot and gets crooked if you breathe on it wrong.
> 
> Yep Bob, I know what I want to do for most operations but I'm still figuring it out saw by saw.
> 
> Will do Bill
> 
> Thanks for the comment Fridge. I passed your kind remarks to Maggie.
> Bill White (the other Bill).
> 
> Graphics courtesy of Maggie White (the better half of Bill  at MAGraphics
> 
> Laser not quite hot enough
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Laser a lil too hot
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - TheFridge


----------



## TheFridge

Thanks Bill  she does great work. Still don't know if my buddy got his laser fixed


----------



## summerfi

Repairing a saw handle can sometimes get to be tedious work. European beech patches in a European beech handle.


----------



## donwilwol

Nice repairs Bob.


----------



## TheFridge

Yessir. Reminds me I need to up my dye game.


----------



## woodcox

Seamless work, Bob. I know where to send it when I go to far now. Starting with Claro.


----------



## putty

Nice repairs Bob, do you use epoxy to glue the repairs?


----------



## JustplaneJeff

No saws were harmed in this !!!








Merry Christmas


----------



## GrantA

Nice Jeff!
Yall look at this guy ^ he's got planes & chisels in the kitchen cabinets! 
 #shopgoals!


----------



## BillWhite

Thanks again Fridge. Operators are standin' by.


----------



## summerfi

Putty - yes epoxy.

Jeff, your saws really put me in the Christmas spirit. They make me think of these classic Christmas carols:
- All I Want For Christmas Is My Two Hand Saws.
- It's Beginning To Look A Lot Like Sawdust
- O Handsaw Tree, O Handsaw Tree
- I Sawed The Bells On Christmas Day


----------



## JustplaneJeff

Don't forget " Let it saw, Let it saw, Let it saw" Bob


----------



## woodcox

filing for a white Christmas.


----------



## DLK

I saw mommy carving Santa Clause underneath the Alder-toe last night.


----------



## summerfi

- Away In A Saw Till
- Little Sawyer Boy
- O Come All Ye Rip Teeth


----------



## BlasterStumps

Grandma got ran over by a Belsaw


----------



## CFrye

Rudolf the red nosed saw horse
Deck the saws
I want a handsaw sharpened for Christmas


----------



## bearkatwood

All I want for Christmas is my two saw teeth.


----------



## DonBroussard

I can't believe that the classic, Saw-lent Night, hadn't been mentioned yet.


----------



## theoldfart

^  for the win Don!


----------



## TheFridge

I.. was dreaming… of a Hen… ry Disston.


----------



## DLK

> I can t believe that the classic, Saw-lent Night, hadn t been mentioned yet.
> 
> - Don Broussard


Is that the one that goes:

Saw-lent night, Hole-saw night
All is sharp all is bright.
Around yon timber marked with gauge.
Frame saw ready to engage
Saw in heavenly peace
Saw in heavenly


----------



## theoldfart

Snappy little bunch here tonight.


----------



## summerfi

On the twelfth day of Christmas, my true love gave to me
twelve grinders grinding,
eleven polishers polishing,
ten etchers etching,
nine toothers toothing,
eight setters setting,
seven filers filing,
six handlers handling,
five gold-plated saw screws.
Four handle nibs,
three coats of finish
two unbroken horns
and a Disston with an 8 inside the D


----------



## Sawron

I don't know any pagan marketing festival songs and around this time of year I like to immerse myself in comfy stuff like the Mountain Goats to drown out all the damn jingle crap until it finally dies out again until some time next november or october for some damn reason.

I know this isn't a clean kerf
I guess my fleam wasn't fleam-ing
I can't bear any other rake
This was my last and best saw filing
~
I sawed into the cherry
Kerf full
Wood tassels
I sawed into the cherry
Kerf full
Wood tassels





Also just made my first batch of wood butter in a little dash rice cooker that came in today, sunk a little 125ml mason jar in like two cm of water, chopped up a stick of beeswax and let it melt out clear while the mineral oil warmed up some, poured it in (producing a fascinating bloom of refrozen beeswax splashing across the bottom of the jar and crawling up the sides before I broke it back up) and once it was all mixed up and clear… just took it out, turned off the cooker, let the stuff cool off and thicken up and I've been obsessively slathering it on every bit of walnut I can find handy because MY GODS IT IS SO FREAKING RICH AND GORGEOUS WITH THIS STUFF SOAKED INTO IT…

Need some more handle-sized chunks of walnut to play with now… curses.


----------



## Sawron

Well, couldn't resist doubleposting because man this stuff is just fabtastical on the right woods, don't get me wrong, it's silky feeling and looks great on the pine handles, but it doesn't really do it justice like another finish probably would.
































On something with the right affinity for oil though… it's hard to get the way the you can hold something up and look across it towards a light source and see essentially every buffing and sanding and polishing stroke lined up one way along the grain, then turn it to get a slightly different angle so the effects show the more diagonal swirling strokes which you can then watch as they morph into a history of the crossgrain working you've buffed into the material.

Well, I don't really think of what I do while shaping a piece of wood as an artistic process-generally when I talk about art it's something you can enjoy and appreciate without it needing any additional purpose or goal beyond said appreciation-but shimmery ripples and waves hidden across the grain like this stuff displays were all put in place long after the surface was silky and inviting to the touch, and were indeed put in with a more artistic goal in mind.

I just didn't ever expect more of a result than being able to catch hints of it here and there when I happen to have all the angles and lighting set up exactly right. I doubt the pictures would capture the effect anyways, but just being able to show someone in the room with me is an actual thrill.


----------



## GrantA

Beautiful work Max! I'm really digging that dovetail marker, might have to make myself one


----------



## Sawron

Heh, thanks, and I had to find something to do with the bits of scrap I was practicing dovetails on, felt like thumping my forehead on the doorframe when I knocked down the corners on one and holy crap it's a cute little marker…


----------



## BlasterStumps

"On the twelfth day of Christmas, my true love gave to me
twelve grinders grinding,.."

Dang Bob! That's pretty good.


----------



## chrisstef

The was cheery AF gang. Some real spirit being shown around here.


----------



## tshiker

Love all the Christmas cheer!


----------



## woodcox

Dashing for the glue.


----------



## Brit

How did you manage to do that Woody?


----------



## Sawron

It's a piece of wood dude, I don't think it can answer you, and I'm not even sure it's name is Woody because… oh wait…


----------



## woodcox

Admiring how nice the back mortising was going so far and it hit the floor. A very bad sound.


----------



## Sawron

Times like that I'm glad the little metal tray on this workmate was making the missus jumpy so I decided to put a bit of foam padding around it.

From *sliiiide… CLANG* *inhale through teeth in dread* to *sliiiide… pifff* 'whoops, get back here'

Anybody else wonder about their sanity when they talk to a stray bit or mid-fitting shim that bounces out as though telling it 'hey, get back over there' is going to help?

I suppose it actually working would probably be a worse sign though.


----------



## summerfi

I hate it when that happens WC. Glue should make it good as new though.


----------



## donald_wa

Needed to add a few more to the Christmas favorites.

Good King Wensawslas
Saw nuts roasting on an open fire
Saw wrests are not for gentlemen
Hark, my Henry Distton sings
I sawed upon a board so clear
OK. enough.
Bob- great rendition of 12 days


----------



## bandit571

"Over the river, and through the woods, to Grandpa's shop we go"


----------



## Sawron

Ok the Hark and Saw Nuts are pretty good.

Wax the saws with oils like honey, and that's all my holiday spirit, sorry, fresh out, check back in 2027 or so?


----------



## summerfi

Excellent Christmas songs everybody. I think we need to put out a LJ Christmas album. Maybe have Da Yoopers sing it. DonK, can you arrange that for us?

I just bought this saw in the eBay "Art" section. Ain't she a beauty? I can't wait to see who's makers mark is under all that paint. I don't believe I've ever seen a saw with six brass domed nuts. I suspect the handle is mahogany, but not certain from the pictures. Yes, I'm a wild and crazy kind of guy.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Oh I yust go saw nuts at Christmas 
On that yolly holiday

Nice saw Bob. Can't wait to see what it is either. 
Did the seller show the other side?


----------



## Sawron

"I got an idea folks… hear me out… we aren't exactly about to light the art world on fire here, sorry Frank, you're no Monet… but what if we painted… on saws?" 
'Dammit Floyd, we told you to stop huffin' that paint thinner!'

America is so weird, I mean, I appreciate that it's at least non-destructive but wasn't the saw pretty enough already? Why not take the plate, stamp out a copy in some cheap material that wasn't tempered for a very specific set of properties for a very broad set of uses, and paint on that?

Also put a little keyhole blade from a Zona multisaw I had in a new handle, works like a little woodpecker kinda thing.








I use the hell out of that little dude, so great for that last little bit of a mortise or crisping out the inner edges on a set of tails.


----------



## Brit

Looks interesting Bob. That artist (and I use the word loosely) is cruisin' for a bruisin'. Is it signed so that we can send the boys round to his/her house to re-arrange the furniture a bit?


----------



## DLK

*Max™* I think in America someone has an idea, tries it out and the result seems cool to someone else. This someone else says hey I think I can make that profitable and proceeds to find cheap ways to find materials for the "new" product. It then proceeds like wildfire through the artisan community who are desperate to supplement their income. Motivated by a disdain of the throw away culture of the 60's and 70's we are now in full upcycle drive. I seem to see it everywhere. Whole businesses turning "junk" into crap art. We in this forum on the other hand revel in the tradition of restoration and out of respect bring new life into antique tools and furniture by restoring them to the function and beauty they once had without compromising their integrity for fake art and a quick buck.

As far as I recall the painting of saw plates began with discarded modern circular saw blades, which is fair enough as the cannot be restored anyway and then just moved on to other bits of metal including our treasured handsaws. In general the unknowing public sees rust as junk that cannot be saved so why not paint it.


----------



## Sawron

Yeah, gone through various toolboxes and such sitting around the house here just to rescue bits and pieces, or in the case of the drill sitting in a little cozy next to me, bits and braces but prior to my work on that end the only saw in the house was a big old stanley hacksaw… oh, and I think there might be a circular saw somewhere on a shelf downstairs.

Father-in-law was surprised that I didn't just grab a hardware store japanese style saw since they're clearly better than the floppy stanley miter box+saw I got.

Can't really recut induction hardened teeth and the tang on most makes it unfeasible to reverse the blade anyways, while the cheapo stanley just suffered from too much metal under the spine+a weird extension of the plate into the crap handle so it flopped a lot. Oh, didn't hurt giving it some attention all down the toothline and bolt holes closer to the spine instead of out on the flange, but hey, that hacksaw was handy for fixing that!


----------



## woodcox




----------



## Sawron

Now resist the urge for looking at it fawningly while it hangs over a hard floor again… or put a rubber pad or something down. 

Kinda digging the gouge sweeps actually, gonna keep them or smooth them out?


----------



## bandit571

Silver steels, Silver Steels..
It's Christmas Time in Indy..
Hear them ring, hear them sing….


----------



## PPBart

Found a few saws today, should be good for practice:










All are pretty rusty, but don't seem to have any significant pitting. One of the handsaws handle is cracked through, and neither have any medallions or (visible) etching. The backsaw does have "Spear & Jackson" on handle.


----------



## Brit

> I can t wait to see who s makers mark is under all that paint. I don t believe I ve ever seen a saw with six brass domed nuts.
> - summerfi


My guess is Jonathan Beardshaw.


----------



## summerfi

I've gone back and forth on whether this may be a British or American saw, Andy. I see traits of both. What leads you to believe it is a Beardshaw saw? I've been looking, but haven't found anything similar.


----------



## Brit

I thought the saw nuts were quite distinctive so I went looking for a saw that used the same nuts and came across the saw below which was made by Jonathan Beardshaw on Backsaw.net. I know this doesn't necessarily mean that your saw is by the same maker, but it could be. LOL.










When are you going to put us out of our misery?


----------



## summerfi

The saw is supposed to arrive on Monday. Getting that paint off and discovering who made it will be first priority. I would be happy with a Beardshaw. One thing that makes me think it could be American is the distinctive hook on the front end. British saws usually are more straight across. Then again, there aren't many American saw handles made of mahogany. Some made at Sing Sing were, and that's a possibility. We'll know in a few days.


----------



## Sawron

Looks like it's got a whole other beardshaw cheek worth of wood there, and the little mini-nibs in the bottom horn>lambstongue transition look like an odd detail to leave out if trying to do the same pattern generally.

Not an expert on panel saws at all, heck, oldest saw I've got is from like March, so most of the info on older saws is just from threads like this one and general browse devouring the web. I cringe a little looking at that first one now, the stanley ended up as the top one here.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Bob, I hope that saw plate is in good shape under that pretty picture. It looks like another area where there is a difference between the two handle designs is the lamb's tongue.

The best painting on a saw plate that I have ever seen is the one that said "We can fix your ******************** tattoo". I wanted it for my shop wall. : )


----------



## dbray55

When I retired from the school system, a good friend, the master carpenter for the school system gave me 3 painted saws. One is a fairly new Disston. the one that actually has a nice painting on it is an older saw.

If I had received them from anybody else, I would strip off the paint. As a present from Butch, I will keep them the way they are. He took over the position of master carpenter for the school system when his father past away. He started working for the school system in 1962 or 1964. He just lost his wife a few months ago of over 60 years. He is the nicest guy you would ever meet. Even at his age he also is an active hunter.


----------



## Bluenote38

I just picked up a saw plate. Sash? approx 14"x 4" steel backed. Now I have to figure out what to do with it. I have some Walnut that I think I could use. Any suggestion on the Handle Pattern?


----------



## summerfi

Bill, based on the hole pattern, it looks like your saw may have been part of a "nest of saws". You are correct that a 14" saw is usually a sash saw, which is usually filed 12 ppi crosscut. I would suggest a closed handle for a 14" saw. You can find a bunch of saw handle templates here and here.


----------



## bandit571

Something to ponder, over the weekend..









Picked up about july of 2011…..red handle, had a lot of white lettering on the grip…









Without the flaky red paint…


----------



## Sawron

> I just picked up a saw plate. Sash? approx 14"x 4" steel backed. Now I have to figure out what to do with it. I have some Walnut that I think I could use. Any suggestion on the Handle Pattern?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Bill Berklich


Mother-in-law is a painter and basically treats all tools as disposable because they can all get paint on them I suppose?

She had an old old old tool bag I was digging through because I remembered some clamps being in it, at the bottom was one just like this with a damned annoying black plastic handle riveted on, but it was sadly more pit than steel by the time I found it.


----------



## Just_Iain

"Baby It's Cold Outside" has nothing to do with snow and everything to do with how cold the shop is!


----------



## MSquared

Hi Folks, not a collector, but have handsaws from my Dad and Father-in-Law mostly from the 1940's-50's. What constitutes a 'very good', or 'high end' saw? I plan on keeping them.


----------



## summerfi

Marty, the golden age of saw manufacturing occurred in the late 1800's. Most saw aficionados consider saws made during that period to be the best that were ever produced. However, good saws continued to be made into the 20th century. 1928 is viewed as a turning point when Disston (and others followed suit) revamped their saw line with saws mass-produced by machines. Rather than making saws that were visually appealing and ergonomically designed, the emphasis changed to making a lot of saws cheaply for the mass market. The steel continued to be good for the most part, but handles became more and more squarish and clunky and made from cheaper wood as the years passed. Screws were cheaply made of steel or aluminum rather than brass.

That is not to say that your saws made in the 40's and 50's can't be good users and treasured for their sentimental value as family heirlooms. I would keep them too. I hope you'll post some pictures of them. If you have any questions about how to get them into top working condition, we can help with that.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Say Bob, I was going to mention that on the one and only saw I removed paint from, I used Pine-sol. I let it soak for about 12 hours. Made it very easy to remove the paint.
Mike


----------



## summerfi

Thanks Mike. I bought some paint stripper today, so I'll give that a try. I'm hoping the saw gets here tomorrow.


----------



## summerfi

My painted saw arrived today. Here are my initial thoughts. The plate is nice and straight. The back side has a thin coat of flat black primer, and I would think I could see any serious pitting through it, but I see none. Most likely there will be some when the paint is removed. I can't see any hint of a name stamp or etch under the paint. The plate is nice and wide and the teeth are in decent shape.










I don't believe the handle is mahogany. Most likely it is a fruitwood of some sort, but I can't tell for sure yet. Some idiot cut a slot in one of the screw heads, probably because the screw was turning when s/he tried to take it off.










The screw shafts are thin diameter, which often indicates an older saw. The screws seem on the fragile side, and in fact one was broken off inside the handle. I'll have to make replacements for this one and the one that is slotted. The plate is primed black under the handle, so obviously the artist (cough) removed it. There are no extra holes under the handle, which indicates the handle is probably original to the plate.










Now I will show you close up pics of the artistic scenes on the plate. You should feel lucky to see these (satire) because your eyes will be the last to ever see this classic piece of art painted in ca. 1991. I'm only half kidding because I think this art work is at least as good as the painting I saw on "Antiques Roadshow" a couple nights ago that was appraised at half a million dollars.

The plate is now under paint stripper, and by the time I finish typing this it will be about ready to scrape off. I'd better go. More to come later.


----------



## RWE

The artist (cough) did a pretty good job. Inquiring minds need to know: how much did you have to pay for that masterpiece? I remember that you bought it online at auction.

I believe that the idiot, I mean the artist, did his/her best. You should really show a bit more sensitivity I think. Not everyone appreciates the toil and trouble it takes to paint such a fine scene on some old useless saw. Perhaps some sensitivity training is in order??


----------



## JayT

> Not everyone appreciates the toil and trouble it takes to paint such a *useless *scene on some *fine* old saw. Perhaps some sensitivity training is in order??
> 
> - RWE


Fixed it for you.

I'm sure if we knew who the painter was, we could fix them up with some sensitivity training. They really ought to be more sensitive to the feelings of old tool hoarders . . . er, users & collectors.


----------



## RWE

JayT: Perhaps sarcasm does not translate well. I was messing around with Bob.

I consider his post a masterpiece that will live forever in the history of the Saw thread on Lumberjocks.

I have been known to throw a verbal tantrum when I see a painted saw in antique markets. I first go and look to see if the saw is worth being mad about and then tailor my tirade accordingly. Fortunately, most of the ones I see are painted on 60's junk saws.


----------



## summerfi

OK, I'm sorry. Criticism for insensitivity accepted. Now can we stop with the mushy stuff and get back to saws? ;-)

The painting is gone. The black primer is proving harder to remove. I've removed enough to know this is an American (technically speaking) saw. It has an etch. The etch says….(drumroll)....Harvey W. Peace. I say technically speaking because Harvey W. Peace was born in and got his early saw training in England as a member of a larger sawmaking family. Just like many of the early American saw makers did.

You asked what I paid for the saw (talk about sensitivity!). It was listed on eBay for $39.99. I offered $25.00. She counteroffered $29.00. I bought it. I think it was worth it. I can't find another Peace saw anywhere close to this one. Joshua at Hyperkitten says, "During Peace's heyday in the mid-1880s the company produced hundreds of different saw models." This could be one of them, or it could be a one-off, I just don't know. Perhaps when I see the full etch it will reveal more info.


----------



## bandit571

Have done a few "Saw Rescues" 









IF you look closely at these $0. 25 each saws…you might see a couple keepers









Might even have had a D-16 in there…









Or, a D-8..


----------



## kwigly

Peace be with you Bob (even after you broke all those screws, doing more damage than the painter  )


----------



## summerfi

Ha, thanks kwigly. I should clarify that in the picture of the screws above, it looks like all but one of the screws is broken. Actually, only one screw is broken, and that one was already broken before I removed it. The others that look broken are just running through the piece of paper, with their nuts on the back side of the paper. I do that to keep them in proper order so they can go back in the same holes they came out of.

I've done a bunch of looking online and can't find another Peace saw like this one. I did, however, find one on the Hyperkitten site that has an etch like this one. It's on a No. 48, and Joshua says, "The interesting thing to me is the etch which is unlike any other Peace etch I've seen." I haven't removed all the primer, so I don't know yet if this is a NO. 48, or some other number, or no number at all. The No. 48 has three standard saw screws and a medallion.


----------



## kwigly

Agh, you hooked me, you were just fishing with that picture and comment on the screws being "on the fragile side".
Really interesting saw, hopefully you can decipher a saw number in the etch.


----------



## JayT

> JayT: Perhaps sarcasm does not translate well. I was messing around with Bob.
> 
> - RWE


Evidently mine doesn't. I recognized you were being facetious and was trying to play off of it with saying the painter needed sensitivity training after you pointed that comment toward Bob.

Guess I need some online forum sarcasm training.


----------



## RWE

*I propose a facetious/sarcasm font rule for LJ. Bold Italics = not being serious*

We get the same problem on the college football board that I follow. Fans start calling one another out and carrying on because someone doesn't recognize the sarcasm.

I thought you were defending Bob from a perceived unjust attack.


----------



## summerfi

OK, we are getting closer to solving this mystery. Here is a pic of the plate with all the paint and primer removed down to the original brown rust, or as some people call it, patina.










The etch is a little weak. I've lightly sanded it to expose the words. In doing so, I discovered this saw is indeed a No. 48 like the one pictured on the Hyperkitten site. Since that saw has a better etch, I'm going to put a picture of that saw's etch below. But my saw has some extra words on the etch that saw doesn't have.










The extra words on my saw are just below what is pictured above, and as best as I can read them they say the following in all caps:

This saw is guaranteed
to be equal to any xxxxx xxxxx
American manufacturer's saw
All dealers are authorized
to take back or exchange xxxx it
moves xxxxx xxxxx xxxxx

Here is a pic of the No. 48 from the 1884 Harvey Peace catalog.










Notice that there are some differences between my saw and the picture.
1. The extra words on my saw don't show in the picture.
2. The handle shape in the picture is a 3-lobe like a Disston No. 12, while mine is a more traditional shape with a lamb's tongue.
3. The catalog saw had 4 standard screws plus a medallion. My saw has 6 raised truncated cone nuts.

I see no indication that the handle has ever been replaced on my saw. I thought about the possibility that someone discarded the original 5 screws, drilled an extra hole, and replaced them with 6 cone nuts. That makes no sense because the handles are not the same shape and the screw locations couldn't match.

So, that leaves the question of exactly what is my saw besides being a No. 48? Could it be:
a. an earlier or later version?
b. a one-off made for some unknown reason?
c. something else?

Other than the catalog picture, I can find only one example of the Peace No. 48 on the Internet - the one on Hyperkitten. Obviously it is an uncommon saw. My saw is marked No. 48, but it is different. Does that mean it is even rarer? Perhaps even one of a kind? The mystery continues.


----------



## theoldfart

Bob, what do the folks at Backsaw.net have to say about it?


----------



## summerfi

I haven't posted it over there yet Kevin.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Bob, I'm sure you already seen that there is noticeable difference in the shape of the saw plate heels between your saw and the catalog. Maybe the heel style will be a clue to the age.


----------



## kwigly

Bob, some style similarities to the "No.50" in Peace's 1869 catalog might suggest a possible date range for manufacturing your saw


----------



## summerfi

Thanks fellas. In my experience, a square heel represents an earlier date than a rounded heel, so my saw is probably older than the saw in the 1884 catalog, which is the same as the saw on the Hyperkitten site. The No. 50 saw is a slight upgrade from the No. 48 due to the rosewood handle. There are differences in heel shape, handle shape, and fastener type between the No. 50 in the 1869 catalog and the 1884 catalog. So, differences between my earlier No. 48 and the one in the 1884 catalog would not be surprising. The No. 48 was not made in 1869, and I don't know when it first came into being.

The 1869 No. 50 has 5 raised steel nuts. Since it is a slightly higher grade saw than the No. 48, it is surprising that my saw has 6 raised brass nuts. Brass is an indicator of higher quality than steel, and usually the more fasteners, the higher quality. So it's all still a puzzle in my mind. It would be nice to find a catalog that has the early No. 48, or someone who has another early No. 48 to compare with mine. Some mysteries are never solved; this may be one.


----------



## houblon

By now I have a couple of split nut saws where I had/will have to remove the handle because of heavy rust or necessary handle repairs. Here are the issues I run into every time:










1) the slot has been partially or completely filed away.
2) the screw has flared out (from filing / banging on it) so that it is wider than the nut hole.
3) the saw blade catches the threads. If the screw is forced down it will strip the threads. Sometimes the screw is bent at the blade due to some wood/blade movements.
4) although I mark the orientation of the screw, it is impossible to re-seat it exactly as it was.

And finally, after re-assembling the saw in the rare case nothing breaks, the nut and screw are no longer perfectly flush. If I would file it it would destroy the patina of both nut and handle…

How do you deal with these issues?
Thanks


----------



## Sawron

I would probably suggest taking up drinking and have no better ideas due to lack of experience there.

I do have something to cheer up sour moods due to problems like that, because let me tell you… it is saw cute!








The one behind is actually an eyelash comb for the missus, and I really use the minisaw for marking mostly, it's handy for slipping between pins to transfer over to a tailboard.









Saw cute!


----------



## Sunstealer73

Has anyone ever taken Tom Callisto's saw making classes?


----------



## summerfi

Houblon, I've experienced all the issues you noted many times. I agree they are frustrating. All you can do is the best you can.

1) the slot has been partially or completely filed away.

If there is still a bit of a slot left, apply strong down pressure with your driver. Make sure your driver tip is in good shape with good square edges. Try turning the nut slightly clockwise first, then counterclockwise. I've used a graver tool to cut a new slot just deep enough for the driver to catch. If you can get the nut off, then you can cut a better slot with a hacksaw. I've made a jig for this.

2) the screw has flared out (from filing / banging on it) so that it is wider than the nut hole.

Again, turn slightly clockwise first. Brass is pretty soft, so if you can get a good bite with your driver, the nut will usually overcome the peening and come on off. Take it slow. Turn a little, then back off, then turn a little more.

3) the saw blade catches the threads. If the screw is forced down it will strip the threads. Sometimes the screw is bent at the blade due to some wood/blade movements.

There's not much you can do about this. Some damage to the threads is inevitable. Leave the hardest screws to last. Take the easier ones out first. Then you can wiggle the handle a little and hopefully get the screw and hole better aligned. I use a short piece of dowel to drive the screws out as far as possible, then a thin steel punch to drive them (gently) the rest of the way. Regarding bent screws, I usually try to straighten them. But you have to be careful because they are so fragile.

4) although I mark the orientation of the screw, it is impossible to re-seat it exactly as it was.

Yep, that's why some saw collectors say you should never remove the screws. On a really rare saw I would agree. Be sure to put the screws in the same hole they came out of. Orienting them the same way in the hole like you're doing is also a good idea. If the screw head sits proud of the surface, you can scrape a little wood out of the bottom of the hole with a fine chisel. If one side of the head sits higher than the other side, I use a piece of dowel as a punch to try to seat that side of the head deeper. Brass is soft enough to bend under this pressure if there is space. If you have refinished the handle with varnish, shellac, etc the amount that can get in the hole is enough to make the screw sit proud. I use a small knife to remove this. If the screw head sits too deep in the hole, I put a little sawdust in the hole rather than some other type of shim because the sawdust is self leveling. It compresses down and works real well.

I've rarely broken a screw while removing them. Sometimes they will already be broken inside the handle. Some screws are going to break; you just have to accept it and deal with it. More often, screws are just going to be in such bad shape that they need to be replaced. I keep a good supply of new screws on hand for this. Hope that's helpful.


----------



## houblon

Thanks summerfi. Good points.


----------



## JakobS

Hi Max,

You make some interesting saws, I like your inventions and inventiveness. Treat yourself on some real nice sawmaking materials in the coming year. I'd like to see what more you can do.

Kind regards,

Ko


----------



## Sawron

> Hi Max,
> 
> You make some interesting saws, I like your inventions and inventiveness. Treat yourself on some real nice sawmaking materials in the coming year. I d like to see what more you can do.
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> Ko
> 
> - JakobS


Why thank ya, been looking at different suppliers for steel and such, budgeting things around. They're such a fun mix of form and function with all the challenges of getting the various stresses and forces kept in check.


----------



## r33tc0w

Can someone shed some light on what I just acquired from my father in law?

D-8

























D-23 rip?

























1940 Special

















Atkins Perfection No. 65

























Stored neatly in this beauty of a chest:

















I don't believe these saws have ever been restored, just cared for beyond belief. I'd like to use them since I don't have any decent hand saws but I'm afraid to use all but the d-23


----------



## r33tc0w

I'll see if I can get some measurements later on, all but the d23 are crosscut

D23 appears to be from '40-47 based on the medallion
The D-8 appears to be '28-40 
And obviously the 1940 would be from 1940?
Would it be safe to assume these were all purchased in 1940? My Father-in-law's dad was one of the guys that casted uranium backing ww2.. how does one check radioactivity?


----------



## summerfi

r33 - Disston and Atkins were both major U.S. saw manufacturers. I suggest you go to Disstonian Institute to learn more about your Disston saws. This site has some info on Atkins. Your saws all appear to be in very nice condition. They were all made in the second quarter of the 20th century, meaning they are not particularly old or collectable as saws go, but they are great users. Don't be afraid to use them.


----------



## RWE

r33: I have a D-23 Lightweight and I have always liked how it cut. It is however a crosscut.

The D-8 was one of the most popular saws sold by Disston Again, it is a great user just like summerfi stated. With two crosscut saws and a rip (possibly) you are in a great position to begin hand tool woodworking. Go on YouTube and watch some Paul Sellers segments on sawing. I am not as familiar with the Atkins model, but they are fine saws as well.

I see more D-8 saws for sale at flea markets and antique malls and at this point, I have three different medallion types on D-8 full size saws, plus a couple of D-8 panel saws. Great users. The earlier models are probably collectors.

Nice looking toolbox as well. Hopefully you have some more interesting things in there.


----------



## houblon

> Would it be safe to assume these were all purchased in 1940? My Father-in-law s dad was one of the guys that casted uranium backing ww2.. how does one check radioactivity?
> 
> - r33tc0w


For radioactivity you would want a geiger conter. I just recently bought a kit from here.
We tested it on green depression glass and on pre-war red fiesta ware items that both contain uranium. It works very well. On flea markets you find saws and uranium!


----------



## PPBart

> I ve rarely broken a screw while removing them. Sometimes they will already be broken inside the handle. Some screws are going to break; you just have to accept it and deal with it. More often, screws are just going to be in such bad shape that they need to be replaced. I keep a good supply of new screws on hand for this. Hope that s helpful.
> 
> - summerfi


As always, good info. Where do you get replacement screws?


----------



## summerfi

> Where do you get replacement screws?


I buy them from Alamo Toolworks, but they are also available from Blackburn Tools, Two Guys In A Garage, and Florip Toolworks. I sometimes make my own too if I need a special screw.


----------



## summerfi

You may remember this W. Tyzack Sons & Turner 8" dovetail saw that I posted sometime ago. The handle was unfortunately broken in the mail. I finally got around to making a new handle out of European beech. The plate was crumbling with rust under the handle, so I replaced the plate too.


----------



## summerfi

This 12" saw was made by John Kenyon, presumably a grandson of the John Kenyon who made saws in Sheffield in the late 18th and early 19th centuries, including those in the Seaton chest. This saw was made around 1870-80. When I acquired it, it had a harshly modified handle. You may recall I posted it then and asked for opinions on whether I should try to repair the handle or make a new one. Opinions were mixed. I decided to make a new handle out of European beech. However, I changed the style. I didn't like the squarish bottom sides of the cheeks on the original. I opted to make a handle with a rounded boss similar to ones on some early saws by Kenyon and other makers. I tried to use a combination of dyes and stains to make it look old. I don't think the antiquing was 100% successful, but it looks okay.

The original plate had a small crack in it, and the metal was brittle. When I tried to set the teeth, some of them broke. So, I salvaged an old plate that came off a Beardshaw saw and used it. I canted the plate just a bit in keeping with some early saws.


----------



## JADobson

Beautiful work Bob.


----------



## houblon

Looks great. I notice you placed the nuts further apart. Is this intentional, or were these the locations of the Beardshaw holes?


----------



## BlasterStumps

Bob, they are both "nonpareil". I would have a hard time choosing one over the other. Very nice.
Mike


----------



## summerfi

Thanks guys. The Beardshaw plate was 14", so I cut the holes off it. I like to put the screws as far apart as possible because I think that adds more stability and helps the handle stay tight.


----------



## bearkatwood

I recently did a run of spokeshaves and used my vise in a little different way. I had to keep going back and forth on width when I would clamp them in sideways or longways. It was a pain so I decided to make up a high vise clamp similar to the benchcrafted style An Etau, but turned so the opening is facing me to use on saw handles etc. 
I made up a prototype.









The vise will get bolted to my bench like my hand screw currently is.









This way I can put something in the vise and close it up one handed and the width will adjust automatically with the scissor truss in the bottom of the vise. The screw I ordered is a little overkill, but it should get the job done. The final vise will be quite a bit larger than the current hand screw or prototype.










Hope you guys had a good new years and things are going well.


----------



## TheFridge

BK, that is my preference for shaping handles so far. When I saw the scissor I had a "why didn't I think of that" moment  great stuff. I like putting it in my end vise though. Makes for a lot of ergonomic flexibility.


----------



## DLK

Beautiful work *Bob*, I still cherish the Tyzack tennon saw you sold me.

*BK* brilliant idea!


----------



## theoldfart

Bob, that handle is drop dead gorgeous.

Seems like your doing a bit of work for yourself, can I interpret this to mean you have time for some client work? I have two special(to me) saws and a vintage french mitre saw for use with a mitre jack that could use some your special skills!.


----------



## BrentParkin

As usual Bob, those two restorations are beautiful! The Kenyon is gorgeous work. Just wow!



> This 12" saw was made by John Kenyon, presumably a grandson of the John Kenyon who made saws in Sheffield in the late 18th and early 19th centuries, including those in the Seaton chest. This saw was made around 1870-80. When I acquired it, it had a harshly modified handle… <snip>
> 
> - summerfi


----------



## summerfi

Thanks Don, Kev & Brent.
Kevin, by all means send the saws. I've been hoping you'd send the French miter saw. I'd like to make a reproduction of it if you approve.


----------



## theoldfart

Ok Bob, no problem on copying the saw. The other two saws are a Beardshaw and. Groves. Both are split nut and filed rip.

I just need to make a video for Candy, she wants too see the mitre saw and jack in action. Guess i'm joining the YouTube crowd.


----------



## summerfi

So Candy wants to see a scie a recaler in use with a boite a recaler. Cool. 
Beardshaw and Groves…you've been holding out on me Kevin. I recently purchased an 1830-ish Groves and a 16" Beardshaw, which is my first 16" brass back. Both need restoration.


----------



## theoldfart

Yup, in fact I have the catalogue


----------



## summerfi

That catalog has some pretty cool stuff in it. Who knew the French were so innovative.

Edit: Link for anyone who wants to look https://archive.org/details/forge-royale-compressed


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop

+1 on wanting video.


----------



## bearkatwood

Thanks for that link, I pulled a few pictures from there of things I need to resurrect for my shop. They definitely were inventive.


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## DavePolaschek

Candy asked about the miter jack saw because I'm building a tenoning saw to go with my miter jack, similar to one Ron Aylor built a while back.

I'm making the front knob for it today, then it'll be time for finishing and writing up the project.

For saw plate, I'm using a cut-up Great Neck 26 inch Panel Saw, which at $30 or so on amazon seems like a pretty reasonably-priced source for saw plate.


----------



## Sawron

> That catalog has some pretty cool stuff in it. Who knew the French were so innovative.
> 
> Edit: Link for anyone who wants to look https://archive.org/details/forge-royale-compressed
> 
> - summerfi


Looking through and I swear I read "special tools for canine, rattan, and rush work on chairs and furniture" and wound up slightly horrified upon looking at the device which was supposedly used on dogs like, yeah, you could use it once on a dog I suppose, but dear gods why?


----------



## DavePolaschek

Thanks for posting the link to the catalog, Bob. Between that and the P.S.&W. Mechanics' Handy List sent out by MWTCA this year, I have more things to add to my "tools to make because I can't buy them" list.


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## DLK

The catalogue is cool. I particularly liked the Boites a recaler (proably its Boîtes à recaler literally boxes to reset aka miter boxes I guess ). (I think á recaler means to recalibrate i.e. to make true.) Do yourself a favor and google Boites a recaler too and look at the images and articles. Some are vey cool.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Mads just posted one of these, a very cool 'collapsable' frame saw.


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## KentInOttawa

> The catalogue is cool. I particularly liked the Boites a recaler (proably its Boîtes à recaler literally boxes to reset aka miter boxes I guess ). (I think á recaler means to recalibrate i.e. to make true.) Do yourself a favor and google Boites a recaler too and look at the images and articles. Some are vey cool.
> 
> - Combo Prof


On the bottom-right of the original link (page) is a link to a PDF version w/ the English translations The boites a recaler translates to shooting jacks.

I speak some German and some French and have been known to occasionally use English well, so I'm familiar with the different results when using different ways to translate something. In this translation, I also noted that French-Canadians still use rabot and varlope (smoother/bench plane and jointer plane), but not riflard (jack and/or jointer). Words is so much fun!


----------



## theoldfart

My copy of the catalogue has English translations on each facing page.


----------



## bandit571

Looks like the price of 16" panel saws will be going up…..Paul Sellers has a story about the ones he has….

Good thing I already have a 20" , 10ppi D-8 on the til….


----------



## woodcox

Thanks for the link, Bob. A pretty nice collection of fixtures there. I have started an etaux to sit down in my wagon slot. 









I am going to try a short chop that travels above edge of the bench. About a 4" throat and 6" under the acme for some kind of parallel guide to make work.


----------



## DLK

The catalogue is cool. I particularly liked the Boites a recaler (proably its Boîtes à recaler literally boxes to reset or recalibrate or make square aka miter boxes I guess ). Do yourself a favor and google Boites a recaler too and look at the images and articles some are vey cool.


----------



## BlasterStumps

I made something on that line Woodcox. I found some plans in a woodworking mag. It bolts to the end of my bench. I like it because it raises my work up about a foot off the bench top. Glad you posted your picture because it reminded me I need to make a leather faced jaw for it.


----------



## bearkatwood

I was looking at the pictures of that and thought the same thing. Looks like a great vise, but I would put some cork or leather in there. Nice design, looks well made.


----------



## DavePolaschek

Just finished up my miter jack / tenoning saw this morning. I think it came out pretty well. http://lumberjocks.com/projects/407811


----------



## woodcox

Nice work Dan. That is what I'm shooting for. I have some crubber on it's way for the jaws.

An ugly flange for the leg.


----------



## bearkatwood

Crubber? is that like pleather?


----------



## woodcox

I hope so. I need not mention how corduroy and pecky cedar have filled a void. I hope the crubber is on par with those discoveries.


----------



## summerfi

I've completed the restoration on my unusual Harvey Peace saw-the one with a farm scene painted on it. You can read my blog post about it here.


----------



## Brit

Lovely job Bob! I've never seen a handle with six fixings before. It seems like overkill really.


----------



## summerfi

I agree with you, Andy. Anything to sell a saw. It was a very competitive market even in those days.


----------



## summerfi

A few more restorations completed.

1. W. Tyzack Sons & Turner, 12", 13 ppi xcut, new plate.










2. Spear & Jackson, 28", 8 ppi xcut. Love the stylish S&J handles.










3. Woodrough & McParlin, 26", 10 ppi xcut. IMO W&McP saws are as good as or better than Disston. The only thing I can fault them for is their etches are shallow and often don't survive.


----------



## Sawron

Finally, wasn't happy with the purely western designs I saw, wasn't happy with the purely japanese designs I saw, but modifying it so I can brace it with my thighs (which is functionally damn near mounting it in a vise, biking and running up and down hills and later running around with weights in a backpack does that sort of thing apparently, even 15 years later) like so:









Flip to hit the other side:









Plus retain the option of clamping it to my little bench:









All of which makes it much easier to avoid cramps or sacrificing accuracy with the file for some reason like wobbly base, sliding jaws, or awkward approach lines for the file itself, hurray! Fastest full-touchup I've ever done, it was damn near weird just focusing on what the file was removing instead of trying to keep everything lined up properly or make sure it wasn't screaming at me.


----------



## onoitsmatt

Latest round of saws look great as usual Bob!


----------



## woodcox

I like that s&j, Bob. Beautiful work. All of them are great.

Pear from john2005.


























Samsonite! I was way off.


----------



## theoldfart

Woodie, I like your garters!


----------



## bearkatwood

My first attempt at teaching went pretty well. I taught a two day dovetail saw making class at the Langley Washington Learning Lab, a facility with a culinary arts, horticulture and woodworking options that are very well stocked. The woodshop had just about everything we could need, but I brought the farm with me anyway. I brought all my setters for example and a good selection of dovetail saws to have as reference. 
There were five students and even though it takes me about 2-3 days to get a saw from beginning to end, somehow these guys all left with a sharpened saw ready to go. Here are a few pictures from the class.







































































































































We have a stool making class scheduled for next week, hoping to do a few classes with them every now and then. Check out their website here Living Design Foundation


----------



## summerfi

Congrats, Brian. Based on watching many of your videos, I think you are a natural teacher. Passing skills on to others is a really good thing.


----------



## bearkatwood

Thank you Bob, hope to one day have half the skills and knowledge about saws you possess. Great work on that latest bunch by the way.


----------



## Bluenote38

Brian - what a great opportunity for people to relearn a lost art. I've got a couple of 14" Steel backed saw plates I need to get handles on. And sharpen. A couple more weeks of post surgical recovery and hopefully I can get back into the shop.


----------



## bearkatwood

Heal up quick Bill, hope you can get back to it. I have heard some wild stories about how much has been lost. I was talking to one person about his father that worked in the shipyards as a handsaw sharpener. There were seven other guys with him in that department when he started and he was the last to go at the end of his career in the 70s. 
Louis from Northwest timber was telling me about how on the teams of lumberjacks that would go out into the forest to cut down trees, the saw sharpener was the highest paid, we never think about stuff like that.
In Disston's book "The Saw in Hisstory" he tells the story of how the saw sharpener was so secret a process people weren't permitted into the sharpening shop, they had to wait outside and ring a bell to be permitted to come in.










We have certainly lost a lot of hand tool knowledge post WWII, Porter Cable did a good job driving hand tools into the grave. They are seeing a resurgence in popularity because THEY WORK, many times grabbing a hand tool is the preferred option to get the job done quickly and efficiently.
I am not a trained saw maker, in fact quite the opposite, completely self taught, what they would call an autodidact. Now there can be such people like Good Will Hunting who are very competent in their knowledge through this course of study, I would kill for the chance to learn saw sharpening from an old dog who was around when it was actually in use on a regular basis. Will Hunting, I am not, I muddle through and can only teach because like Edison I found 100 ways it doesn't work and can relate the experience I have learned to produce a halfway decent saw. There is still so much I need to learn, the rabbit hole seems endless when it comes to the mastery of this skill. Sadly such teachers are in their retirement and leaving us daily. The reason I started my youtube channel and publicly share my work is based on the pyramids. We have no idea how they were made, the builders were very secretive about the processes that achieved such wonders. The Freemasons had the square and dividers as their emblem and most people had no idea why, but the work by Jim Tolpin and George Walker has brought these tools back to life for the home woodworker thanks in part to Lost Art Press. Resuscitating these lost crafts and sharing them with our next generation is imperative if we want them to succeed. Otherwise they will be spending their time trying to figure out how we did it and loose out on expanding upon our successes. I personally would like to see how much further the next generation can take the craft if we can educate them properly. Bring back shop and art to our schools, offer them apprenticeships in cabinet shops, teach them hand tool use and give them the skills they need to explore their ideas in this medium. 
Rant done, thanks.
Happy woodworking folks.


----------



## Bluenote38

Great rant!! I agree. I learned to sharpen axes, and one and two-man buck saws when I was a kid (we didn't have a chainsaw until the 70's) I remember setting the teeth with a drift punch. My Dad was an Architect, Engineer and Journeyman Cabinetmaker. He used to spend a couple hours a month sharpening Planes, Chisels and Saws. Never learned it as a kid - didn't have the patience - took me a LONG time to "discover" the I hated planes, chisels, and saws because none of mine were sharp. I've got the planes and chisels down (finally) now on to saws. Wish I could go back and learn half the things he knew. Or my Grandpa - he was a Pattern maker. And GGrandpa was a Tinsmith back in the old country. Oh well - live and learn. Thanks for keeping the craft alive.


----------



## Brit

Congrats Brian and Amen to your rant.


----------



## Brit

Bob those restores are gorgeous. I too love the old S&J handles.


----------



## bandit571

A nuttin fancy, random saw picture..
.








Doing what it does best…


----------



## Sawron

I like doing the larger center pin spacing too, they were so frustrating when I was doing tails first that I never noticed how interesting it can be to do little symmetrical changes like that on the final result.


----------



## summerfi

This is a Groves & Sons 14" saw that dates to about 1830. It is one of my oldest saws and one of only 2 or 3 that are that old. I still haven't broken the 1830 threshold; saws older than that are just not very plentiful. How do I know this saw dates to 1830? Mostly by the name stamp, by comparing to other known age saws, and by seeking opinions of knowledgeable saw people. The name stamp is simply Groves & Sons rather than R. Groves & Sons, which came into use by 1840. This saw also does not have the USE and candlestick-like trademark figure that Groves saws are famous for. Those were also in use by 1840. Notice there is a dot between the words cast and steel. The dot was present on many British saws dating to 1830 and earlier.

*Before*










As we've all talked about before, how far to take a saw restoration is a difficult decision. My natural tendency is to try to make a saw look as nice as possible. But that's not always the best decision on older saws, especially those that are more of a collector than a user. I give serious thought to saws that are older than, say, 1850, and I sometimes have to restrain myself from doing too much. To be honest, it is easier to do a full restoration on a saw than to do a limited restoration that maintains the saw's antique qualities.

This saw is one that I had to give that sort of consideration to. Groves saws are not especially rare. They were one of the more prolific saw makers, and whenever you check eBay, you will always see Groves saws listed. Yet as an older saw, I felt this one deserved special attention. I did what I would call a "light" restoration on this saw. I cleaned the rust off the plate and spine, adjusted the position of the plate in the spine, retoothed and sharpened the plate. All I did to the handle was clean it with Simple Green and a Scotch-brite pad, sand very lightly, wipe on one light coat of shellac as a sealer, and give it a coat of paste wax. There are many nicks, dings, and broken bits on the handle that were acquired over the past 190 years. I restrained myself from fixing these, but it wasn't easy. I like the color of the handle now, and I think it looks like an antique. One of the original split nut screws was missing, replaced by a piece of nail. The other one broke when I tried to straighten it for reuse. So I had to make two new screws, but I tried to make them not look shiny bright and new.

Overall I'm happy with how the saw came out. The plate and spine look a little shinier than I'd like. It's hard to restore something part way. Some of the true saw collectors would cringe at what I've done to this saw. They believe you destroy an antique saw if you do much of anything to it at all. Some of these people have sheds and buildings packed full of hundreds of saws that are rusting away, not being used or enjoyed, other than their pride in owning them. My goal for virtually every saw I handle is to make it usable, even if I try to retain it's antique character. This saw is no different. It is usable now, and may it live another 190 years.

*After*


----------



## DavePolaschek

That's some darn nice work in my book, Bob. But I'm not an antique collector, I'm a user.


----------



## Johnny7

Bob

That is tastefully done in my book-and I'm a minimalist restorer.


----------



## warrenkicker

> Heal up quick Bill, hope you can get back to it. I have heard some wild stories about how much has been lost. I was talking to one person about his father that worked in the shipyards as a handsaw sharpener. There were seven other guys with him in that department when he started and he was the last to go at the end of his career in the 70s.
> Louis from Northwest timber was telling me about how on the teams of lumberjacks that would go out into the forest to cut down trees, the saw sharpener was the highest paid, we never think about stuff like that.
> In Disston s book "The Saw in Hisstory" he tells the story of how the saw sharpener was so secret a process people weren t permitted into the sharpening shop, they had to wait outside and ring a bell to be permitted to come in.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We have certainly lost a lot of hand tool knowledge post WWII, Porter Cable did a good job driving hand tools into the grave. They are seeing a resurgence in popularity because THEY WORK, many times grabbing a hand tool is the preferred option to get the job done quickly and efficiently.
> I am not a trained saw maker, in fact quite the opposite, completely self taught, what they would call an autodidact. Now there can be such people like Good Will Hunting who are very competent in their knowledge through this course of study, I would kill for the chance to learn saw sharpening from an old dog who was around when it was actually in use on a regular basis. Will Hunting, I am not, I muddle through and can only teach because like Edison I found 100 ways it doesn t work and can relate the experience I have learned to produce a halfway decent saw. There is still so much I need to learn, the rabbit hole seems endless when it comes to the mastery of this skill. Sadly such teachers are in their retirement and leaving us daily. The reason I started my youtube channel and publicly share my work is based on the pyramids. We have no idea how they were made, the builders were very secretive about the processes that achieved such wonders. The Freemasons had the square and dividers as their emblem and most people had no idea why, but the work by Jim Tolpin and George Walker has brought these tools back to life for the home woodworker thanks in part to Lost Art Press. Resuscitating these lost crafts and sharing them with our next generation is imperative if we want them to succeed. Otherwise they will be spending their time trying to figure out how we did it and loose out on expanding upon our successes. I personally would like to see how much further the next generation can take the craft if we can educate them properly. Bring back shop and art to our schools, offer them apprenticeships in cabinet shops, teach them hand tool use and give them the skills they need to explore their ideas in this medium.
> Rant done, thanks.
> Happy woodworking folks.
> 
> - bearkatwood


My dad, who was born in 1937, would from time to time bring up stories of his high school years. He had indicated that while in high school shop class they had some experience with sharpening hand saws. He talked about how they learned to file the saws and it went so far that a classmate of his even took a saw down to no teeth and filed it back to usable. Due to that experience when I got a Disston No. 4 that needed to be reworked due to bad sharpening I didn't hesitate getting the right tools for the job and trying it. It may not be perfect but it is usable.

Dad even worked to sharpen up a two-man saw when we were doing some special work trying to split a tree down the middle. Between sharpening and using candle wax on the sides it worked. I learned from him so many ways to repair things instead of live in a throw-away society. Now I buy stuff at auctions, repair or replace parts and have a usable item.

Last week he has been gone 2 years now. So much knowledge leaves this world every day.


----------



## summerfi

Thanks Dave and Johnny.

Warren, my Dad was born in 1911 and passed in 1996. He is still the greatest craftsman I've ever known. Though I literally grew up in his shop, being there nearly every day, there are so many questions I would like to ask him now. Knowledge taken for granted, now lost forever.


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## Brit

Nothing wrong with that restore Bob. You did the saw justice IMO. I often think that sometimes you have to restore a saw past the level that you think looks good and then wait a few years for it to mature back to where it looks best.


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## Sawron

I gotta cringe at that post giving any sort of credit to Edison who was an awful man and nothing but a marketer, he didn't find 100 ways it didn't work, he found 100 guys who knew ways it didn't work and ripped them off before taking credit for it.


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## summerfi

Here's a funny…I just saw a tenon saw described as a tennis saw. Other words I've seen used for a tenon saw: tennon, tendon, tenor, tannin.


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## DavePolaschek

> Here s a funny…I just saw a tenon saw described as a tennis saw. Other words I ve seen used for a tenon saw: tennon, tendon, tenor, tannin.


Some people's brains are funny, but lately I'm as likely to blame the "ducking autocorrupt" in my phone for that sort of thing.


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## TheFridge

Love it bob.


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## JohnDi

Guys I have a tooth geometry question. I have an old Jackson dovetail saw that "feels" sharp. It looks like the teeth are cut at different depths, and it looks like the pattern repeats so I think it might be correct?
Can anyone shed some light on this. I was thinking I needed to send it out to be sharpened but if the filing is correct maybe not.


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## KentInOttawa

JohnDi,

that's called "cows and calves", and is a relatively common example of poor filing technique.Fellow LJ Andy, a.k.a. Brit, has a long but very excellent video that will tell you everything you want to know and more.


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## summerfi

^ Agree. This is a poor sharpening job, even though it may feel sharp. Feeling sharp doesn't necessarily translate to cutting well.


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## RWE

Random Refurb posting.

I made acquaintance with an antiques shop owner. He held back about 12 saws for me to look at. I think he gets most of his stuff from estate sales. None of them were worthy of refurb except these two. The others were clunky 50's and 60's or later junk.

I picked out a D-12 that was totally roached out. The handle was white from water and dried out. The other saw was a WS, but it was clean, had a nice handle and plate. The D-12 is a Philida medalion, 9 PPI crosscut. It cleaned up ok, but it cuts beautifully. It is the second D-12 that I have found. Both of the D-12's sing a little bit when you wiggle them. They had more tension hammered into them and commanded a higher price. I am gifting it to a friend. According to Disstonian they were highly regarded.

The WS cleaned up very nicely. I just cleaned the handle a bit and oiled it. It is an 8 PPI Rip. I checked my RIP inventory and it is the highest PPI RIP in my inventory (5 1/2 and 6 PPI on others). I sent a picture of it to Summerfi and he agrees with me that it looks like an Atkins style saw.



















Note the curious arrangement for the saw nut holes on the WS. There are 5 nuts but only 4 holes. the bottom hole on the handle projects just beyond the back of the saw plate. Anyone ever seen such an arrangement?

Also, I got to thinking about how to identify WS saws and their time periods. Some fellow with the intitials CW marked the WS saw using a series of punch marks. It made me think that he had to have been a tradesman and a tradesman that carried a saw to work sites where he would be concerned about identifying his saw. I figure that fact puts you back to the 40's and maybe further back to the 30's.  The fact that the saw is so clean makes me wonder if it is later. Anyone have a site that discusses visual clues to WS saws and how to date them?










Before shot of the WS.


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## Johnny7

> Guys I have a tooth geometry question. I have an old Jackson dovetail saw that "feels" sharp. It looks like the teeth are cut at different depths, and it looks like the pattern repeats so I think it might be correct?
> Can anyone shed some light on this. I was thinking I needed to send it out to be sharpened but if the filing is correct maybe not.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - JohnDi


John

The responses you've received are correct in so far as they answer the question of "correctness."

The reason that such a result occurs in the first instance, is that many fail to "joint" the saw before filing the individual teeth.

Jointing is an operation whereby the points of all teeth are levelled, resulting in flats being formed on what were once the points of the teeth.

Without the reference created by jointing, the filing of individual teeth results in a sharpening job that looks like your example. Individual teeth may well be sharp, but they are of varying sizes and shapes.

Hope this is clear.


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## JohnDi

Thanks for the information.
Any recommendations for where to send for sharpening?


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## bearkatwood

"Ducking autocorrect" good one, I will be laughing about that all day. 
Max you make a very valid point, but I don't have any anecdotal quotes about learning as you go from Tesla, he was born a genius I think. Much like Bill Gates, Edison he knew how to glean ideas from smart people and market himself.
Kent, thanks for the link.
Bob, what can I say? Your restores are legendary, keep em coming. Hope fire season is mild this year for you and you get more saw shop time, maybe I will get over there to visit sometime.


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## summerfi

RWE, those are nice restores.

Brian, thanks. Come on over anytime. Don't expect anything fancy.


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## onoitsmatt

I stumbled on this oddity. Medallion is typical Warranted Superior Eagle. But it's an 8" back saw with an etch on the plate. All I can make out of the etch is "Philadelphia". It's the shape of the tote that stands out though. Anyone ever see one like this?


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## summerfi

Matt, a few different saw makers made handles with fingers sticking out the front like that. Richardson Brothers is probably the most common. I also see a lot of J.D. Darlingtons, which is a secondary brand of Harvey Peace. One of the British makers, maybe Spear & Jackson, copied the design for awhile. There may have been others, I'm not sure. Like many saw features, once a maker made something, the other makers copied it. It was a very competitive market. I don't know which Philadelphia maker produced saws like this. Maybe Disston, though I've never seen one.

Here is a Richardson Brothers that dates to 1885. I currently have this saw for sale. I'm working on another RB dating to early 1870s that I'll be posting here in another day or two.


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## onoitsmatt

Thanks Bob! That's a good looking saw. I've been eyeballing your current offerings. I don't need any more saws, but I really like that little 8" brass back one you have for sale.


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## bearkatwood

Love those multiple cove saws. Nice work!


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## woodcox

I abandoned my little crisscross after a layout error. I had an acme nut instead of the hub squeezing it while transferring pin locations and drilled one pin lower. I played with it for two days and was not happy with the pressure and then backfilled the mortises. I thought to try a parallel guide with a cam lobe above, rotated by a little crank on the side. I cut up a wonky Stanley rule to save the guide from wear. It holds like a vise now. I've got the functional, now to shape and assemble.


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## bearkatwood

That cam lock was a good idea, nice work on that. Looks beefy.


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## Brit

Excellent work Woody. Ingenious!


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## theoldfart

Woodie, that idea should work on a full size vise as well. The cam could be foot operated.


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## bearkatwood

Now you're cookin with butter  foot operated cam on a leg vise, sweet. Let's throw a little quick release in there as garnish.


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## onoitsmatt

That's a great looking vise, Woody!

For anyone curious (probably only Bob), I cleaned up the plate on this saw.










It reads "Pennsylvania Saw MF'G, CO"










Cool little saw.


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## Johnny7

Matt

Was your etch centered on the blade?
btw-I'm a fan of that handle style, and have several saws of that type.

Here's a split-nut J.D. Darlington:


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## summerfi

Matt, very cool. I think that's the first Penn Saw Co. saw I've seen of that design. It's great you were able to save the etch.

The markings under the handle on this Disston handsaw are interesting. Based on the inchworm name stamp the saw was made in the 1850s, and based on the medallion it was made in the late 1840s or early 1850s, so I would say early 1850s is a good guess. I don't know what the 3-1/4 or horizontal line stamps mean, but H.D. is probably the maker's initials. Since Hamilton Disston didn't join the firm until 1865, the initials just about have to be Henry's. It's pretty cool to have a saw made by Henry himself. The saw came with a goofy looking replacement handle, so I'll have to make a new handle for it.


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## putty

Nice Bob, what is the length of it?

I picked up a wreck of an eagle medalion Dissiton a while back, i'll get some pics.


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## bandit571

May cost too much to ship this anywhere..









Just an old Disston No. 7

















This Penn Corp. saw MIGHT still be in the shop…









I'd have to look..


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## summerfi

Putty, the saw is 26" with a pretty full width. Looking forward to seeing pics of your saw.

Bandit, I'll pay shipping. Send it to me.


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## dbray55

Bearkatwood - there is a video by Tom Law (no longer with us) that teaches saw sharpening. He was an extremely nice man and I have a few of his saws. He only charged $10 to sharpen a saw. He had a saw collection of something like 9000 saws, some of them seriously rare. The last time I spoke to his wife, they were all up for sale but that was several years ago. I lost touch with her.

If are looking for the video, it can be found on


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Bob, pretty incredible. Congrats to you on that find!


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## onoitsmatt

Johnny, yes, the etch is centered. My first thought was it must have been cut down. But etch is right where it should be for a saw this size. Got it at auction with a bunch of files and c-clamps. Fun find.

Bob, neat find on that eagle disston.


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## bearkatwood

dbray55 I wouldn't know what to do with 9,000 saws, that is wild. Thanks for the link.


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## putty

Eagle Medalion Henry Dissston I picked up a while back, Im not quite sure of the date, 1860-1865?
It has a big chunk out of the handle, i'm thinking of scarphing a new piece on there…would that be strong enough, or will it need a new handle

The plate is straight and in good shape, the stamping on the spine is very crisp!
the saw is 14"


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## bearkatwood

Dang you guys find some fun goodies.


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## Sunstealer73

I started restoring my first saw yesterday. It appears to be a D8 from the early 1900's (pre-WW1). I got it from Pete Taran, he cut new 7 ppi teeth in it for me, but didn't do anything else to it.



















I used naval jelly and wet/dry sandpaper on the plate. It came pretty clean, just a little pitting. The etch is dim, but readable.

The tote was really grimy. It also had a run in it, not sure if someone put varnish on it at some point? I ended up sanding it down from 120 to 320 and then a few coats of oil.

I started building the Lie Nielsen style saw Vise yesterday. I also ordered a saw set from TFWW. Looking forward to getting it sharpened and back together! This will be my first time sharpening a saw.


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## Brit

Good luck Sunstealer. You can do it, just take your time and keep your angles, pressure and number of strokes constant.


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## Brit

Putty if you can get good long grain glue contact it will certainly be strong enough.


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## Sunstealer73

> Good luck Sunstealer. You can do it, just take your time and keep your angles, pressure and number of strokes constant.


 Thanks, your videos have been very helpful figuring out the process.


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## summerfi

Putty, that location seems to be a vulnerable place for breakage on backsaws. I've repaired a few there. Your break will be a bit tricky to get a patch to fit properly, but if you can, I agree with Andy that it will be plenty strong.


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## putty

Thanks,

Would you use Titebond or epoxy?


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## summerfi

I would use epoxy unless you can get a really tight fit with your patch.


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## summerfi

John Buxton 12" open handle saw.

*Before*



















What do you do with a mess of a handle like this? Note the medallion is from a Robert Sorby saw. This saw originally had 7/16" screw heads, but the screws have been replaced at least twice by someone who didn't know what they were doing. I decided to repair the handle rather than make a new one.










*After*

I'm not sure I like the color the handle turned out. A little too red.



















I love these old style incised stamps.


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## DavePolaschek

Wow, Bob! Nice restoration. Seems like you've been busy lately, too.


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## KentInOttawa

> John Buxton 12" open handle saw.
> 
> *After*
> 
> I m not sure I like the color the handle turned out. A little too red.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - summerfi


I, for one, love how well that handle turned out. The damage and abuses have been mitigated while you've captured the patina and retained the original style. Please make sure that saw finds a good home.


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## TheFridge

Yeah those stamps are awesome


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## Sunstealer73

So, over the past few weeks, I've read all the way through this thread. It's a treasure trove of knowledge about saws, saw restoring, and saw making. I'm curious what happened to some of these makers that were mentioned along the way if you were in the market for a new saw or parts to build one:


Bontz Saw Works - The site is up, but nothing is for sale now.
Wenzloff & Sons - Site not updated in years, it seems they were taking lots of orders, but something happened? Anyone know the story? This one really confuses me since they were so successful for a period of time.
Adria Tools - Site is completely gone
BearKat - Site still up, no longer making saws though?
Wally - Hasn't been on LJ in a couple of years?

These are all current makers of saws or saw parts:

Blackburn - Still going strong for parts, no new saws though
Bad Axe - Still going strong for new saws, a few parts available
Two Guys In A Garage - Still going strong for parts, including a new folded back
Florip Toolworks (EricF, I think?), saws and parts
Lie Nielsen - Still going for saws and sharpening
Veritas - Still going for saws
Gramercy - Still going for saws and parts via TFWW
Lynx/Pax - Still going for saws
Rob Cosman - Still going for saws
Raub's Saw Works - Haven't seen mentioned here, but he sells on eBay and Etsy, they look nice

Anyone want to fill in what happened to the ones in the first list or add to the list of who is still in business and actively selling new saws or parts as of January 2019?


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## putty

Bob, that is a fantastic job repairing those bolt holes!


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## summerfi

There are some others that you haven't mentioned in your lists.

Northwinds Toolworks
Winsor Saw
Eccentric Toolworks
Cady Tools
Skelton Saws
Alamo Toolworks
Space Age Tool Co.

All saw makers aren't the same. Some are rather large businesses (e.g. Lynx/Pax), some are smaller but well established businesses (e.g. Lie Nielsen, Veritas), some are new start up businesses trying to make a go of it (e.g. Florip Toolworks), some are sideline businesses for people who have other jobs (e.g. TGIAG), some are hobbyists, and some are people who have made a few saws but it isn't a serious long term pursuit.

I could name several saw makers, some well known, who started up their ventures, produced good saws, and quickly became overwhelmed by the number of saw orders to the point they developed long waiting lists and were years behind in filling orders. It seems to be a pattern with saw making. Some of these have decided to stop taking orders but still dabble around the edges with making saws, parts, and other tools. Saw making is a hard business to be successful in and still have any life at all. That fact is a discouragement to many would-be saw making businesses. There are also changes that come along in life, like illnesses, educational pursuits, job changes, etc. that I know have affected some saw makers.

P.S. - Congrats on reading through this whole thread. That's no small accomplishment. A lot of great knowledge has been shared here.


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## summerfi

Thanks putty. I used a secret method. ;-)


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## bearkatwood

Haven't heard much from Northwinds in a while, I need to look up that space age one, hadn't heard of them. It is hard to keep production of saws going. It takes quite a bit of labor to pump them out as you guys all know and going into full on production means like Erik did, you have to seriously tool up. I have 45 saws in queue right now, each one getting my full attention and taking a couple days per saw. I have given serious thought to upping my game and building a new building just for saws and hiring someone on so I can get back to woodworking. I started this whole endeavor out to share what I had learned and how you can make your own saw. One thing lead to another and I started getting orders, then Fine Woodworking picked up on it and now I get swamped anytime I say I will take orders. I miss being able to make a stupid youtube video on how to …. My world has been consumed by saws and it is no wonder that you don't hear much from many of the saw makers out there, they are hiding away trying to get caught up on orders due to the wonderful resurgence of interest in hand tool woodworking and a lust for opulent tools. I had a restful weekend and felt guilty that I wasn't in the shop. I start my days at 4am and go hard all day making saws until I can't move anymore. I like having steady work, but I long for other projects sometimes. Not that I am complaining at all, I would just like to share more about what I have learned in the way of woodworking and balance out making nice toys.
Nice work in that one Bob.


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## summerfi

Something that has amazed me about saws is the incredible demand that exists for good saws. This is due, as Brian described it, to the resurgence in hand tool woodworking. I get saws for sharpening and restoration literally from all corners of the U.S.A. I've sold custom saws on half the continents of the world, and that would likely increase if I hadn't stopped taking custom orders. There are more people now days with the disposable income to afford nice saws. To some of them, just owning nice tools is more important than what they make with the tools. I've also had collectors buy my saws banking that one day their value will increase. If I was a young man, it might be fun to give the saw making business a real go, but it would be hard work with no guarantee of success.

As I've watched saw makers come and go, I see two trends in modern saw making. One trend is production oriented, making lots of basic saws and selling them to users at good prices. The other trend is making a low volume of high end saws that are part tool and part art and selling them to the upper crust for high prices. Neither approach is right or wrong, and there is room for both. I personally lean toward the second approach because I don't have to earn a living from saws and I enjoy developing my artistic skills as much or more as my production skills. It will be interesting to see where saw making goes in the future. I don't think we'll ever see large scale saw manufacturers again like existed 100 years ago.


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## Sunstealer73

Thanks for the perspectives. I'm glad you're still making some Brian, your scalloped backs really stand out as unique.

Northwinds seems to be offline and I saw a message they stopped taking orders.

That Winsor Reagan #9 reproduction is gorgeous!

It is interesting how much demand there is out there.


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## summerfi

This is a Beardshaw & Son 16" tenon saw from c.1840. The handle was rough when I started. I spliced on a total of 7 beech patches: upper horn, lower horn, tip of hook, top of both chamfirs, and two on the lamb's tongue.

*Before*










*After*




























Beardshaw put an extra little cove in the clip return. I've not seen another maker do that.


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## woodcox

I think it is a great time to be able to see and actually acquire some really fine work. Or jump at the opportunity to make something you really want and have Brian show you how. That is a really good thing to see now and only grows the trade.

I believe this is done. Crubber is the real deal and I don't think I'd have found this quality at the parts house. I don't need as much pressure for a better bite. I grab the crank just as the chop touches the work and then continue turning the screw. To reposition, I do need to release the crank as I unscrew. I wonder if allowing the parallel guide to pivot at the chop instead of joined, would allow it to rack some unscrewing. Like the old blacksmiths leg vises pivot point. There are a lot of cool ways to put one of these together. 



























Ed. Nice save there, Bob.


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## bearkatwood

Jeeze Bob, you find some nice saws to restore. That turned out beautiful, love the lambs tongue details and speaking of details that vise has some as well. I am being lazy getting mine put together. Somehow I doubled ordered my vise hardware so I have four of these big screws ready for vises. I may have to make a few extras and sell them off or trade one for a rocky mountain saw  I think I may go look for a chunk of wood to use after lunch so I can catch up on the vise build off.


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## theoldfart

OK Bob, they're on their way. Should be there Friday. I think the kids here will be interested in the results.


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## summerfi

OK Kev. I'll let you know when they arrive.


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## DavePolaschek

Heck, the "kids" here are impressed that you used three theirs there correctly, Kevin. ;-)

That little detail on the Beardshaw is pretty neat, Bob. And it looks like a heckuva restoration. Seven patches!


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## bearkatwood

No this doesn't compare at all with some of the vises on this forum, but I have something started that will work well for me I think.










I bought a bunch of gun blanks from an estate sale years ago and haven't done much with them. I was told it was a mix of maples and english walnut. I thought I grabbed a maple, but the piece I picked out sure looks like sycamore in some spots.










Not sure, other spots look like maple. Don't really care.

Found a nail though, lucky me.



















I chunked it up and got a couple usable pieces for the chops.










Drilled a hole for the vise screw and screwed the threaded escutcheons on. That just about did it for pulling them together straight minus the rotation of the second chop, a criss cross should take care of that hopefully. If not I will try to go with the sliding bar and cam lock idea.










I turned a short handle so it won't hit the countertop when I use it, it could have been a little longer, but there wasn't much planning done so far.

Parted it off and drilled out where I had it centered on the tailstock to receive the handle.










All in all it doesn't look too bad, I have about 1/2 hour into it so far. I may paint that orange and shape the parts a little, but besides some way to keep it even when in use, be it scissor plate or a sliding bar, it's usable. Locks down nice, way better than that hand screw. I will probably cut the threading short so it doesn't get in the way too much.



















Thanks for inspiring me to get after it fellas.


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## Johnny7

*Dave*

Great catch on TOF's proper grammar (seldom seen these days)

*Bob S.*

You are the Beverly Hills plastic surgeon of saw doctors-that is a lot of splicing/grafting-and an impressive result.


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## theoldfart

Guess I speak gooder englich.

Eleven years of parochial education and a mother who was a reacher will do that.


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## DanKrager

Kev, you did good on the "there, their, they're" but it's "speak well englich", isn't it?

I LOVE Peter Sellers misuse of English in the Pink Panther series where he talks about having speaks with someone. LOL.

DanK


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## KentInOttawa

English is so messed up. You can do good and you can do well. You can even do good well, but you can't do well good. Changing priorities in the education system and the built-in auto-corrupt apps will make it even rarer to find people who can speak and write well. Yay Kevin! Those that can recognise it are also in danger of extinction.


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## bearkatwood

You have me beat on good grammarness, My son was once asked at school if his family spoke a second language, he said "Yes, sarcasm"


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## BHZ

Got this saw at a estate sale and I have a question:
Does it affect the value if I replace the handle or is is best to repair?
and yes those are rivets on top.


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## summerfi

BHZ, your saw looks like it may be a Disston & Sons No. 7 from the 1896-1917 period. My only uncertainty is due to the bottom (4th) screw being completely missing. That leaves the possibility that the handle has already been replaced once. I don't think the rivets are original. If there is an etch on the saw, that may reveal it's true identity.

If it is a No. 7, then it is a good saw, but a very common one. In top condition, it's value would be around $100. So, replacing or repairing the handle is not a big deal one way or the other. Make a new handle if that's what you prefer, but the existing handle also looks very repairable.


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## Cricket

This thread has gotten super long and may need a part 2. Who can do this so I can lock this one and link to the new one?


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## Cricket

If no one is able to start part 2 shortly, then I will start it as the length of this thread is causing some site issues.


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## summerfi

DonW started the old thread and IMO should be the one to start the new one. I sent him a PM.


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## Cricket

> DonW started the old thread and IMO should be the one to start the new one. I sent him a PM.
> 
> - summerfi


Thank you. I will wait a bit longer.


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## summerfi

If Don can't for some reason, then I'll be happy to.


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## donwilwol

New thread Started

http://lumberjocks.com/topics/302775


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## Cricket

> New thread Started
> 
> http://lumberjocks.com/topics/302775
> 
> - Don W


Thank you so very much!


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## bearkatwood

That looks like a fun challenge, I would try repairing it first and replacing the rivets with bolts, but I would probably massacre it and end up making a new handle. Like the shape on those.

So I cut out some 1" bar aluminum for a criss cross and pinned it with brass. The chops shaped up nicely and are bing finished with poly. So they turned out to be English Walnut, who knew. Certainly not me, I suck at identifying stuff, but a coat of finish revealed it sure wasn't maple so my bet is on the english walnut.










The criss cross keeps the set sprung out a bit at the bottom which is preferable so I get good gripping at the top.



















The multirouter was helpful for making the slot for the criss cross.



















Copper, why not. It was the first one I grabbed that looked good.





































I taped off where the leather pad will go so it will stick good, hoping to have this up and running tomorrow.


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