# Candy shopping for another big boy!



## ssnvet

I was sharing some news from work on the Stumpyville thread and thought I'd pull it over here for the CNC geeks to enjoy….

We're likely going to drop $100K on (another) new CNC router and $125K on an automated panel saw at work and
I've been swimming in CNC router specs and features and minutia details about their inner workings. I'm dealing with some very knowledgeable sales people and feel like I've learned a TON in two weeks. One guy told me "very few customers ask these type of questions" and I took that as a compliment. My boss has the final decision, but says he will lean heavilly on my recommendation, so I don't want to screw it up.

As much as I love this stuff, I've been staying late every night and am getting a bit burned out by it all.

Here are three of the machines being considered…

MultiCam DT5000









Giben G2









CNT 1000









What I really want, is to build a garage and park one of these bad boys in it, hang out a shingle and play.


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## ssnvet

> I was curious Matt, ..... if industry looked at the same companies that we woodworkers look at.
> - MikeinSTL


I used to hang out on CNCZone & WoodWeb, and there are certainly active companies doing great work with machines like the Luguna or ShopBot.

I think the big difference is the duty cycle and the productivity features. By way of comparison, our MultiCAM DT5000 weighs 8,500 lbs (rigging it into the bowels of our foam shop requiered two fork trucks and some head scratching). Here were my minimum specs that every machine considered had to meet at a baseline.

Note that all of these machines require reliable (no convertors) 3 phase power, and in abundance.

A high quality spindle with ≥ 12HP
A regenerative blower vacuum pump with ≥ 15 HP 
Automatic tool changer with ≥ 8 tool holders.
Highly effective dust collection system.
Cutting speeds ≥ 900 ipm
Reliable electronics package.
A robust and rigid frame.


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## ssnvet

> Matt, I recently looked at the Giben CNC machine. It is made overseas and utilizes cast Iron for most structural componants. (Yes, I said Iron - although it is their own alloy of Iron, it is a heavy SOB)
> 
> The Onsrud machines start around $85K the last time I looked at them - I ve used several different versions. Fairly reliable if you get the upgraded controller.
> 
> I looked at MultiCam per your suggestion but didn t find what I was looking for. (Kitchen Cabinet guy speaking, of course)
> 
> Biesse is the machine we went with, though it is an older used machine and mostly in Italiano, it is a solid performer. Like buying a used car, though, it has its maintenance issues. A few bearings have broken seals and dry out and gunk up, but, so far, nothing serious. It is, by far, one of the strongest and fastest machines I ve ever seen or used. At the price we got into it, the deal was incredible. ($48K range used for a $111K machine when new)
> 
> It would seem that your boss is liking making money with the machines he s got and could be looking for the BBD (Bigger Better Deal). How exciting.
> 
> - DS


Hey Jeff,

I know you know your stuff and appreciate you chiming in. We bought our last machine (CNT 900 series) used (but very lightly so) back in 2010 and got a smoking deal on it. And it's still chugging along….

In my experience there's three different flavors of used.
1. Company went belly up in a bad economy and sold a great machine that they didn't want to lose. But the economy is so good right now that these opportunites aren't popping up.
2. Company has rode the machine hard for years and is just starting to encounter significant down time and maintenance expenses. These have a high risk of being maintenance headaches.
3. Company realizes that they bought the wrong machine and wants to upgrade… but I think these usually get traded in.

ONSRUD certainly makes a top shelf industrial machine, but the ones I've seen were a couple steps above what I perceive our needs are. We're far enough down the road that I don't think I want to bring in another company.

I evaluated 5 machines from three companies and feel we got a pretty good lay of the landscape.


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## ssnvet

Our experience is that we spend more time clearing the table and loading the next sheet than we do running the programs, so we're looking into two cool features that should really ramp up our productivity. Though we have decent DC in this shop, the CNT900 is an 15 year old "mid-tear" machine and the DC attachement is "iffy" (4" line offset from the spindle head).

1. A table sweep/rake. This is a snow plow like beam that is moutned to the gantry. After the program is done, the gantry retracts to end, drops the sweep and the moves the lenght of the table, pushing the parts, scrap web, and a lot of the debris off the other end. The better designs have DC buiilt into the sweep, so the table is also vacuumed clean of any dust and chips and is ready to load, with no operator action.

2. An integrated off feed conveyour. Giben has a very reasonably priced accessory conveyor table, with integral DC that collects the dust scraped off the table by the sweep and moves the parts and scrap web out of the way.

The goal is that the operator can immediately load the next sheet and hit play, and then go stack his parts and toss the web in the hopper while the program runs.

Here's a cool video of the system in action

This setup is on a G4, with auto-sheet feeding… which we've ruled out…. but the table scrape and off feed converyor are the same as the G2 we're considering.


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## StumpyNubs

I decided to come over here and start an argument. Then I'll play the victim and storm away. Here goes…

FESTOOL MAKES THE BEST CNC!


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## ssnvet

> I decided to come over here and start an argument. Then I ll play the victim and storm away. Here goes…
> FESTOOL MAKES THE BEST CNC!
> - StumpyNubs


:^P

Ther goes that Stumpy kid again

:^D


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## Notw

> I decided to come over here and start an argument. Then I ll play the victim and storm away. Here goes…
> 
> FESTOOL MAKES THE BEST CNC!
> 
> - StumpyNubs


Wrong it's Ridgid!!


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## DS

Used Machine scenario #4; Large national manufacturing company has six machines in two separate buildings for more than a decade. Owner is approaching retirement age and gets an amazing cash offer that's too good to refuse for the rather large parcel of real estate his buildings are on.
He buys a new, smaller property and builds a single massive building to consolidate his operations in. He figures he can sell off, rather than pay to move and re-set up, the least often used machine and not be any worse for wear. Hence, a 12 year old machine with about 2 or 3 years worth of use on it.

P.S. I'm glad I avoided scenarios 2 and 3.

P.S.S. Who is Jeff?


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## ssnvet

> P.S.S. Who is Jeff?
> - DS


Sorry Doug… I was thinkiing of you, as I know you run big machines and program in Cabinet Vission, but I got you confused with JL7 Jeff…. as I've had CNC poop shoots with him as well

That's my story and I'm sticking with it! 
It had nothing to do with age or mental capacity… not a thing
;^)
Now what was I doing again 
:^o

Which reminds me… did you ever finish your home brew build? Inquiring minds want to know :^P


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## DS

That's Okay Matt, I was just teasing ya' about the name thing.

My CNC build is in limbo for a few years now. Ever since I had a couple of heart attacks about 4 years ago, that project got re-prioritized near the bottom of the list. I keep looking at it and thinking it is time to jump back into it.

I have a mental checklist of the things that need to happen to finish it. Sadly, I want to take it apart a re-do several things. It may still happen.

For now, work keeps me full-time busy and I have lots of fun tools to play with lately.


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## ssnvet

> My CNC build is in limbo for a few years now. Ever since I had a couple of heart attacks about 4 years ago, that project got re-prioritized near the bottom of the list.
> - DS


Ouch… didn't know that (or if I did, I spaced it). Hope you're recovering well. Stints?

I'm getting to the point that I know a fair bit "about" CNC routers, but I rarely ever get to play with them and when I do, it's simplistic 2D geometries.

I'd really like to get a seat of Aspire and do some full blown 3D contour cutting and V-carving…. but alas, there's only so many hours in a day, and like you, I need to work to pay da bills (and have two kids in college bleeding me dry).

Maybe I'll be able to try some more difficult stuff now that I have a palm router slave spindle set up on my CNC mini-mill.


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## DS

No stints, but some permanent damage that slows me down a lot. It's been quite the adjustment.

Here's a curent CNC project; Custom arched casings/door jambs.








These are the moldings in the transition from the carvings to the jamb.









Rough-in of the blanks was done on the CNC, the final carving done by a local carver.









Still working on the plinths and the jamb - going into forms today.

And yes, that's Alder.


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## DS

> Maybe I ll be able to try some more difficult stuff now that I have a palm router slave spindle set up on my CNC mini-mill.
> 
> - Mainiac Matt


Did you make that custom mounting bracket for the router?


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## ssnvet

> Did you make that custom mounting bracket for the router?
> - DS


Designed it and cut it on the mill from 3/4 T6061. Then took it to work and used a slitting saw to cut the slots, drilled and tapped, etc… on the Bridgeport clone.

It only took me ~5 years to finish

:^o


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## ssnvet

Love the arch and carving… Do you rough that in with a ball nose cutter?


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## DS

Just blocking the basic shapes, the carver did the pattern. We don't have Aspire, this was all in Cabinetvision. (2 1/2D)
The screen to machine is basically Alphacam Router, so the moldings weren't too hard.
Maybe someday the carvings will come along on the CNC.


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## DS

I'm Curious, couldn't the mill spindle on the mill serve for routing if you could chuck a bit in there? 
Maybe the speeds aren't appropriate for routing?


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## ssnvet

> Maybe the speeds aren t appropriate for routing?
> - DS


That's exactly the issue. Mill is limited to 2,000 rpm. Even feeding at a snails pace, the cuts are so-so…


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## oldnovice

> I decided to come over here and start an argument. Then I ll play the victim and storm away. Here goes…
> FESTOOL MAKES THE BEST CNC!
> - StumpyNubs


Fess up *Stumpy*, Festool doesn't make a CNC unless you call Shaper Origin a CNC!


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## DS

Matt, something tells me you will be playing with CNC a lot more in the near future…
and, P.S. the kids don't stop bleeding ya' dry - even after college.


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## DS

I think sometimes people get the wrong ideas about CNC. It never replaces the craftsman.
For me, 99.9% of the time, it alleviates the mundane operations of casework and allows me to focus on the larger macro-picture of the creative aspects of the entire project.

The other 0.1% of the time, it enables me to challenge myself on a project like these arches that I otherwise might not have attempted.










I didn't mean to hijack this thread. Sorry.

Obviously, your new CNC purchase will be more suited to the work you do, (Foam packaging?), but, still, I imagine it will have a similar effect for you-99.9% relief from mundane work and 0.1% enhanced creativity on projects you might not otherwise attempt.


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## ssnvet

We do iindustrial protective packaging and have shops dedicated to foam fab (die cutting, CNC profiling, and CNC knife cutting, and lots of assembly), short run box shop (CNC sample table and programable short run box makers, as well as die cutting, etc…), new and recycled pallet operations, a patented products department for our proprietary mishandling indicators, and crating (this operation is going nuts with new business and is the focus of this upgrade).

We're looking to upgrade are front loading Biesse Selco beam saw with a rear loading, auto-feeding beam saw. And we need to augment our CNC router with a new machine.

The routers are used to cut components for different style shipping containers. Circles for large "spools", cradles for crates, and deck plates with precision placed cut outs and holes for crates and skids.

Our biggest problem is that we can't hire our way out of the hole our steady growth creates for us again and again. The unemployment rate in our state is 2.7% and people can drive 30 miles south into very good paying jobs in aerospace and a naval shipyard. Because we run a lot of industrial equipment we do pre-employment drug testing and it's scarey how many "candidates" that eliminates… making our hiring efforts that much harder. Even with bumping up our starting wage by 30%, we still can't man the shops.

So we're looking for machinery that can make our existing labor force more productive and to mitigate some of the lifting and material handling with auto-feed and auto sweep machine upgrades. Fortunately, the owners have always been willing to pump money back into the business.


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## ssnvet

The board of directors has approved our panel shop equipment upgrade plan…. to the tune of $250K

The new CNC router is a Giben G4 full-auto line (see min. 3:30 for the table sweep and re-load). It has an 18 HP, 24,000 rpm spindle, twin 10 HP vacuum pumps, 1,000 ipm cutting speeds, 8 position gantry mounted automatic tool changing carousel, and a 5×5 drill head. It also has auto-sheet loading via. scissors table and vacuum cups, and auto parts rake/table sweep that offloades the parts and scrap onto a conveyor table.

The panles saw is a rear-fed, auto-loading Giben Icon Fast sized to handle 10' sheets. The software allows us to load a full lift of plywood and optimize/cut multiple jobs in one program, with the display telling the operator what parts are being cut at any point in time and automatically printing the appropriate label as it pops them out.

I have to confess that I'm more than a bit apprehensive about recommending this purchase, as they put a lot of weight on my input. And that means you know who will be the one they point their finger at if things don't work out as planned. But at the end of the day, this machinery will equip us very well in support of our 10 year plan to grow the company some 50%.

Our little engineering crew is really going to have to up our game, as there's a lot more that goes into programing for these more automated machines.


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## DS

Game On!
How exciting!
No pressure, though, right? hahah

Now it's time to walk the talk. I have full confidence in you man. That's terrific!

Nice day at the Candy Store… woot woot!


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## Mike_in_STL

250K is quite the allocation Matt. Hope it works out better than you think.


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## DS

So, Matt…. when do the new toys arrive?


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## ssnvet

4 weeks for the router.
90 days for the panel saw.

We need to hustle to get ready for them


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## DS

Just FYI,









You're gonna have lots of fun…

or this,

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

Whichever… heheh


----------



## ssnvet

Wow… that arch is incredible.

Go ahead and rub it in… but there's pretty good money to be made in crates (provided you can design them).


----------



## DS

Seems like it should be getting close to router delivery time…

Update for the curious?



> 4 weeks for the router.
> 90 days for the panel saw.
> 
> We need to hustle to get ready for them
> 
> - Mainiac Matt


----------



## ssnvet

> Seems like it should be getting close to router delivery time…
> Update for the curious?
> - DS


Our team decided (against my recommendation…. but hey, I'm just one opinion) to keep both our existing SELCO panel saw and our CNT 900 router. But those who advocated this did not think through the implications of adding the new machines vs. replacing the old machines with new ones, on our electrical service.

So we had to upgrade our 400 amp 480v 3 ph service to 800 amps…. That was a $12K project and the contractors work is almost done…. but it requires the utility to upgrade the conductors from the transformer pod to the new new service box…. and that meant a delay.

So we had to push out the delivery date until May…. and now we may have to push it out again.


----------



## Mike_in_STL

Maybe the leadership should test the lines like a 9 volt battery and lick them? Nothing better than poorly executed upgrades.


----------



## DS

We had a similar problem. The Boss and I had discussed getting a CNC someday and then one day he comes in and announces he bought one already. There was no consideration for the amperage of the building or even the square footage of floor space where it will live.

We ended up relocating to a new building in order to make it work.

In the end, it worked out great. It took several months and lots of money, (his money), but it worked.


----------



## ssnvet

Well this morning I just found out that our maintenance supervisor, who was told that he is responsible to arrange the riggers to unload and move the new machine into it's final position (beast weighs 14,000 lbs and exceeds our largest fork trucks capacity) has done….. nothing! I guess he was waiting for somebody to give him step by step instructions…. who do I call? what do I tell them?

So guess who just inherited yet another project :^p

You know what they say… if you want something done right…..


----------



## Mike_in_STL

Matt…stupid keeps us employed.


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## DS

...Until it doesn't.



> Matt…stupid keeps us employed.
> 
> - MikeinSTL


----------



## ssnvet

OK…

Riggers evaluate site 4/24 
Utility company will finish power upgrade on 5/1 (5/3 is the rain date)
Machine loads on 5/3
Tech. rep flies in on 5/5
Riggers on site 5/6
Machine arrives 5/6
Installation begins 5/6
Installation complete 5/8
Training begins 5/9
Training ends 5/10 and the tech. flies home.


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## DS

5/11 Nice young men in white lab coats come and take you away in a padded wagon to a "gated community" with excellent security.

;-)


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## ssnvet

4/24/19

Ad this is the dust collection system that we intended to hook the new machines up to.










and this is the $8,200 temporary system that will be delivered tomorrow morning so we can keep the shop running.


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## Mike_in_STL

That siding looks a little melty….


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## DS

So, does the dust collector fire alter your time schedule on the new machines?

I've seen dust collector fires absolutely destroy a shop and put everybody out of work, so it seems you are pretty fortunate with this one.


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## ssnvet

No delays… the new Dustek was on site at 7 a.m. and our maintenance crew is installing it as I type.

Not the ideal system I would have dreamed of, but we can't afford to have the SELCO shut down for long. Fortunately, the shop was a day ahead in cutting panel…. but that day was yesterday and they need to be back up and running today.

The metal on the old bag house is warped and fatigued, so I'm taking the maintenance leads recommendation that we scrap it.


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## Ger21

Get your earplugs ready. We have two 10HP 3 bag Dusteks in our shop. One for the CNC, and one for the Edgebander and panel saws. They are LOUD.


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## ssnvet

> Get your earplugs ready. We have two 10HP 3 bag Dusteks in our shop. One for the CNC, and one for the Edgebander and panel saws. They are LOUD.
> - Ger21


We've used 10 HP 3 bag Dusteks in the past…. and you are spot on right… they are loud. Our guys just got up and running with the 20 HP unit last night. I haven't gone down to hear it yet. With 2 CNC routers and a panel saw running along side it, it was already a hearing protection required shop.

I thought about their Whis-purrr model, until I saw the price. $8K for the standard. $15K for the Whis-purrr.

Not ideal, but we we're up and running and meeting our customer commitments.

The industrial packaging business is all about on-time delivery. Last thing we can afford to do is shut down our customers production lines or make them miss their end-of-quarter sales numbers, just because they can't get their "stupid" crates.

No packaging = no product ships


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## TEK73

It seems that a singel crate uses quite a bit of wood.
Many time when I buy a product I wonder what actually costs the most to produce, the fancy packing or the product itself.
I guess that when you get up to the kind if crates you produces that is no longer an issue.

Is there any standard price list for crates?


----------



## oldnovice

> So, does the dust collector fire alter your time schedule on the new machines?
> 
> I ve seen dust collector fires absolutely destroy a shop and put everybody out of work, so it seems you are pretty fortunate with this one.
> 
> - DS


Living in Illinois I used a shop in Dodgeville Wisconsin to sand panels on their large belt sander. Two weeks after I picked up my panels their dust collection system blew up. Fortunately no one was hurt but there was nothing left of the dust collection system which was about 20 feet from the main building.


----------



## ssnvet

I just calculated all the duct sizes, fittings and sketched up a plan for our maintenance sup.

It doesn't matter what size DC you use, if you size the pipes incorrectly, you're not going to get the flow you need.

Mistake #1 is to make them too small, which is like trying to drink 32 oz. Big Gulp soda with a hollow coffee stir stick.

MIstake #2 is to make them too big, which will result in slow air flow that (though you may have the CFM) isn't moving fast enough to keep the chips en-trained and they ultimately fall out in the horizontal runs and start to accumulate. We've had at least two smoldering fires in the duct-work over the 20 years I've been here.

The problem for us is change. We start with a properly sized system, but then we change it ten times and it winds up being lousy.

Our main shop has a 20,000 cfm, 60 HP behemoth outside with a 28" dia. main header. This one has photo-eye spark detectors in the pipe which trigger a fire suppression system that sprays water in the header and shuts the return air abort gate.

All of the large systems have blow out panels…. which are metal plates that are mounted with weak bolts that are designed to give way when their is a pressure spike.


----------



## DS

Is today the day?

We want photos!


----------



## ssnvet

Driver showed up last night and slept in our office parking lot in his sleeper cab.

Riggers on sight at the promised time this morning.

Unloading and moving inside was easy-peasy. Funniest looking fork truck I've ever seen. Low mast with a huge counter weight on the tail end that could be extended further and further aft as required.

Machines are in place and set up/assembly has commenced.

Electricians have confirmed they'll be on site tomorrow morning to connect power.

Quick Duct has been ordered with eta. of Wednesday for most of it and a few pieces arriving Thursday.

I was able to hunt and gather and find that we already had at least a quarter of the Quick-Duct we needed on site (inconveniently disorganized among 5 different locations).

I'll try to snap some pics this afternoon. I didn't have my camera with me when down there earlier.

But all in all, it's looking like the planning and pushing has paid off.


----------



## ssnvet

By request…



















Twin vacuum pumps. 









18 HP 24000 RPM spindle (For scale the duct is 8")









Rotary tool changer









5×5 drill block


















New DC


----------



## ssnvet

I gave my tech. a shop layout print with three dims on it and asked him to mark the floor with spray paint….

He misplaced the mark by 3'

Conveyor discharge table is 2' longer than shown in the vendors CAD print.

So we're crowding the north end, with room to spare on the south end.

Riggers are long gone and we can't move the machine with our own equipment without risk that we damage it.

It is where it is and we'll have to live with it.

Some times you just can't win for trying.

What is it they say about "if you want something done right"


----------



## DS

Very nice! Feels like Christmas morning!

Looks like there's lots to like about this setup.
Thanks for the pics!


----------



## DS

This quote just crossed my mind…thought about you all-uns.

"There be whales here!" 
Montgomery Scott a.k.a. "Scotty" - Greatest shipping container builder EVER!

"The Voyage Home" is still one of my all-time favorite movies.


----------



## ssnvet

> "The Voyage Home" is still one of my all-time favorite movies.
> - DS


Can you please tell me where they keep the nuclear wessels?


----------



## ssnvet

We're mostly up and running…. did training with my little engineering crew yesterday afternoon and the tech is training the shops operator's today. There is a lot to learn and the machine is a lot more complex than our other CNC routers.

Giben was steering us towards using Alpha CAM (which they sell of course), but we wanted to stay with Enroute, as we're very familiar with it, it meets our needs and we have half a dozen people trained on it. And since SAI (the publisher) reassured us that they did in deed have a post processor written for the Giben G4, we decided not to go with Alpha CAM, even though we had to upgrade to the newest version of Enroute to use that post.

Well guess what? The Enroute post for the G4 doesn't have all the code written into the header to run the auto-feed and the table sweep. This isn't earth shattering, and we know Enroute will work with us to update the post, but …. their leading guru is on vacation until Monday.

I'm plowing through the Onsrud catalog today, as we need to drop a healthy chunk of change tooling up higher chip load router bits and the drill block. I'm hoping that the table vacuum is strong enough that we can be all done with spiral down cutters.

I met an Onsrud tooling engineers at a show and tell years ago and keep his business card pinned to the wall. May be time for a consultation.


----------



## ssnvet

We got through the week.

The 8" flex hose I ordered is too light weight and collapses under the vacuum of the DC, so we've ordered new flex with a thicker gauge material. We won't have adequate DC until this is (and a few other duct work tweaks) are done, so we're not yet running production on it.

SAI is working on a revised post processor for us this week, since their guru is back in the office. Then we can cook G-code without a bunch of hand editing.

Once the new tooling is on site, I'm heading down with my designated SME for the machine to load the tool holders and drill bits.


----------



## DS

Sounds like you're making steady progress.

Tooling adds up pretty quickly. I think we are around $3500 by the time we got everything addressed.
We picked up a collet-nut fan that gives the DC a good boost off the table. 








(random stock image)

It really cleans up the spoilboard and reduces time between sheets. It sounds like a jet taking off though.
I think it was just under $500 for this, but man, what a difference.


----------



## Mike_in_STL

I love spinny things that scream. Turbos and props for instance. I'll bet that collet fan sounds awesome.


----------



## ssnvet

Hopefully the vacuum on the new table is strong enough that we can ditch spiral down bits. That alone will greatly improve our DC pick up.


----------



## Ger21

Downcut spirals tend to cut a lot cleaner than upcuts.


----------



## ssnvet

> Downcut spirals tend to cut a lot cleaner than upcuts.
> - Ger21


I agree, but for crate cradles cut from CDX a perfect edge isn't critical. We have used down cut to assist the hold of the vacuum table, as up cut spirals want to lift the part.

The problem we have with down cut is that it packs the chips into the kerf and works against the dust collection, leaving more debris on the table and adding to the time to clear the table and load the next sheet


----------



## DS

We cut boatloads of Thermofused Laminate on particle board and use compression cutters for all outline cuts, since the material is all double sided.
Compression cuts are the worst for leaving dust behind, hence, the collet-nut fan.


----------



## DS

Looking good!
I like your vacuum pumps! (When's the last time your ever heard that?)
Looks like a pair of 10HP to me - good setup with the rack. (Nice Rack?)

Now the boss is gonna expect crazy-fancy boxes twice as fast…

By now, you should probably have worked a lot of the kinks… (Kinky?)

(I gotta get my mind outta the gutter.)


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## ssnvet

We're getting there. Still waiting to get the revised post back from enroute.

Shot some vids and posted to YouTube if anyone is interested.

cutting at 800 ipm

clearing table and loading a new sheet


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## DS

Well, it's been a while and certainly you have a LOT on your plate…

How's it going over there? Everything up and running? Got your new post?
Building a new facility is a hugemongous task. I don't envy you.

Does this mean someone else has taken over the setup and programming of the new equipment?
Enquiring minds…


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## ssnvet

Going well… yes, very busy

Unfortunately we're still having problems with Enroute and have now given up on them… fortunately, we were leasing the new seat on a monthly basis and can pull the plug without hemorrhaging $. Too many buggy things going on that had stumped their senior programmer.

So we have changed course and have purchased a seat of AlphaCAM as that is what Giben recommended in the first place and what their tech was using successfully. All the programs he wrote for us have run well. Also, AlphaCAM has a dongle option so I can run the same seat at any PC…. but we have to wait for them to ship us the dongle.

Very frustrating. I made the call not to purchase AlphaCAM out of the gate and it has cost us 3 weeks of machine down time.

We had a building design kick off meeting with the Architect and he and I have conference called a couple times. First step is to get the column layout overlaid on our production line layout and address interference issues. We can move columns, but increasing spans adds cost as the structural members over head then have to be beefed up. Once I have the column layout and we but heads over that, we'll define the services supported by the truss-work that may add significant load, as that may increase the dead loads or add point loads (think 28" dia. quick duct for the main DC trunk lines).

I will be doing the service air and DC portions myself, as they are not included in the MEP portion of the architectural contract. Turns out that we can get significant rebates from the utility provider if we buy an energy efficient compressor (50 HP VFD drive unit that adjust header pressure to system load, etc…).

We don't think we can afford a new Torrit bag house and 20K cfm blower (>$100,K) on top of everything else, so we're planning on moving our existing system for now.

I wish I could spend my days programming for the new CNC, but I have to delegate that to one of my crew (whom I trained long ago, but has since surpassed my knowledge level).


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