# Tough Times ( Sorry, Long Rant)



## JAGWAH (Dec 15, 2009)

Times are tough for us craftsmen. There is so many out of work that the jobs, when they come up, are very low paying.

I heard from a cabinet shop owner why he was putting ads for help out even tho he didn't need help. It seems he felt there might be a few highly skilled people out there like myself who are willing to work for less than he's paying his current people. Thus the reason I wasn't going to be considered since I asked for $5 an hour less than I was making 4 years ago and that was still $4 more than the $9 he thought I should be willing to work for now.

I asked what would happen to his people when he found someone. He said, quite openly, he'd offer them their job with a pay cut or they can go. Why he was being so open with me is curious. Was he stupid, mean or just a fool? Leverage, that's whats going on now. He's looking for a way to leverage his people and make money doing it.

I work for myself. But bid opportunities have been falling off for the last year, four months ago they stopped. This doofus offered me $9 an hour working on the floor with their tools and offering health benefits after 90 days. Believe it or not it's the best offer so far. The next best job offer was $12 hourly, no benefits, I furnish all needed tools and I sign a workers comp. waiver. But, they said they can work me 60-70 hours a week, more if I want. Whoopee!

I don't want sympathetic,"Sorry to hear that Bob's." I'm just curious anyone else running into the same frustrating crap?

Sorry for the rant.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

Hi Jag!
Back in the early 70's, I liked woodworking shops because I was learning the trade, in custom shops, production jobs, and modular-home construction. I got a CETA-funded gig where my employer was being rebated for a large percent of my salary. As those jobs all got phased out, one by one, only the high-end jobs remained, but even the Union jobs wound down. As tough as it was, I changed fields two times. These days, I work in an industrial environment that is as clean as a hospital, and it's nice coming home from work without sawdust stuck to my skin and in my lungs. Plus, I'm really rolling in it salary-wise, and I can buy anything I want without trifling over the cost. Yes, there's some irony there, I could never afford any decent woodworking tools when I was employed as a woodworker! Life is so much better for me, once I separated my vocation from my avocation. Never abandon your craft, Jag! Just find a way to a better-paying gig, away from your customary trade, and create from your heart and hands when you get home.


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## uffitze (Apr 23, 2010)

Unfortunately, this seems to be happening in all of the building trades. I know that in my area, there are sparkies working for half of what they would have been making a few years ago. My boss has refused to cut wages, but he is suffering in his competetiveness for the few bids available.

I feel that unless it is absolutely necessary to do in order to stay in business that an employer should resist cutting wages simply because you are screwing with your reputation. That is … if things turn around, you are going to lose your quality people right away because they will know how you treated them, and the word will get around that you are a bad employer. So, you will end up with the lesser skilled guys who are willing to cut corners and put out an inferior product.


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## Wood_smith (Feb 12, 2010)

Jag,
I'd say that guy you were talking about was a stupid mean fool, and when things turn around, he's going to be flipping burgers (no offense to restaurant workers)- nobody is going to work for him.


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## 308Gap (Mar 6, 2010)

The trucking industry is the same. CDL use to mean commercial drivers license, for the last 15 years I've called it Certified Driver Lumper. Most driving jobs require loading and unloading your own rig. People say truck drivers make alot of money, some do! But only by working 80 to 100 hrs week with no sleep and bad food. It's a great job if you like working 16 to 18 hrs a day. I've been on disability now for almost a year after crushing 4 discs, the 2 hernia surgeries were easy but this back thing is another animal. I suppose the idea of never turning away from hard work finally caught up to me. Jag if you have the answer for what to do next you might be able to make money that way. After 21 years of trucking I feel 60 yrs old at 46. So whats next?


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## TheDane (May 15, 2008)

JAGWAH-You wouldn't want to work for that clown … sounds like the kind of guy who would sell his own mother. If he'll do that to the people working for him now, it won't be long until he's pulling the same crap on you.


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## hairy (Sep 23, 2008)

Unless I'm misreading this, it sounds as if he was being honest with you. He might be be doing all he can to stay in business. I've always been a fan of full disclosure, sounds to me like he's telling it as it is. I'm not defending him, just looking from a different perspective.

My brother is a cabinetmaker, 28 years. He's done it all from mega dollar kitchens to restoring old wooden cars. He's been out of work 1 and 1/2 years, with nothing to look forward to in his line of work. It's bad everywhere.


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## JAGWAH (Dec 15, 2009)

The wierd thing is I answered a call for a delivery driver last wed. In talking with the person about my many talents she gave me a number to a fixture company I'd never heard of. I said thanks and called them up. They said they prefer that I e-mail them a resume which I did. They called two hours later and asked to meet me that afternoon.

Meeting went ok except they want to hire me as an estimator instead of a Class A millman. They asked if I'd come back and interview with the owner, I said sure. The next morning the owners secratery called and asked me to come in that afternoon. I went, got the tour of their 45,000 foot plant and talked for about an hour. He asked what kind of salary I wanted and I figured this might just be my opportunity so I said a number I'd really like to earn, damn the economy. I also said I was very willing to discuss income. He smiled and said good. Last thing said was he'd give it some thought and call me soon. That was friday. Fingers crossed.

The odd thing is the difference between me hired at a $9 job and me hired to a job double that may well be happen stance, fate or just dumn luck.

The wierd thing is I haven't a clue how I'll do as an estimator. While I know I have the knowledge I've never bid at this scale. seems they do fixtures for companies like Neiman Marcus, Macy's and Dillards.


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## JAGWAH (Dec 15, 2009)

I agree *Hairy*, just unfortunately the realities of the day. I just caught him in a moment of rare disclosure. And no I won't be giving him a thought about work.


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## LateNightOwl (Aug 13, 2009)

Man, that is awful! And he expects to get a craftsman for those wages?! He sounds like an unscrupulous opportunist. Unfortunately, as long as there are people who feel their situation is so dire they think they have to take jobs like this (and there always is) guys like him will get away with it… and make a profit. While he was being so open about it, I would have asked him if he was cutting cost to the consumer by 50% as well.

I wish I could say that I thought he would get his comeuppance when the economy turns around, but the long-range results will more likely be a struggle for workers to get the wages back up. The better thing for the future would be for no one to take these jobs now. Do something outside your trade, mow lawns, sell crap on ebay. I am no longer in the job market, but this kind of thing still makes my blood boil.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Talent and experience is not appreciated as much as it use to be.


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

That's a crappy thing to do on both sides..using someone as a pawn in his game, and being told your value has diminished, and take a pay cut or leave. Unscrupulous businessmen taking advantage of tough times and desperate people.


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## mvflaim (Dec 8, 2009)

Obviously the guy doesn't value his employees so he's not someone you would want to work for in the first place. When the economy picks back up, most of his current employees will leave the first chance they get since he's such an ass to work for. So I would chalk up your experience with him as a conversation with a dick. Move on and forget you even talked to him.


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## reggiek (Jun 12, 2009)

Sad to say that is probably the general consensus today. I can certainly tell you the unions are having a bad time….they have priced us out of the market in several jobs (my company is a union shop)....we can only bid jobs now that are union or prevailing wage. Unfortunately the economy has made a large supply of out of work skilled folks…with the supply and demand being what it is…folks are being pressured to reduce their wages and benefits. Americans have long had a great ride with higher pay and better benefits…trouble is…we are now competing against the world which has many people willing to work for substantially less. Not that I agree, but thats the way things are.


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## JAGWAH (Dec 15, 2009)

It's an interesting world. Oh well, my garden is benefiting from my hands.


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## Gregn (Mar 26, 2010)

Back before I got injured, I noticed this starting to happen in my area. I was a self employed handyman, and things were getting tight so I went to some of the guys I sub contracted with in the past. They too didn't want to pay what they did in the past and wanted to pay me $5.00 an hour using my own vehicle and tools. I said what gives. They told me with all the new competition and everyone willing to work cheap. They had to cut labor to stay alive in the game. We had people coming out of the woodwork going into business most of whom didn't have any experience. That was seven years ago when I got injured so I can't say what its like now.


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## grizzman (May 10, 2009)

bob i hope you hear from that guy and can find some happiness in the job…i love to work and get so much satisfaction from what little i can do now…ive been out of the work game for almost 6 years now…i think…lol..its been a strange time…and im afraid out times are going to be this way for some time..wish it wasnt..i wonder if you could get something good up alaska way…seems to me there should be some good jobs up that way…i know its not home..but…change isnt always bad…and the fishing is great…....and when you do have time off…your having to much fun to notice your not working…good luck buddy…


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

JAGWAH, They probably have set prices and labor units to use. Don't worry about being an estimator. You need experience to know what jobs to stay away from. Most jobs are found by personal networking. You lucked out

Trickle down exonomics isn't trickling very well is it? Greenspan finally admitted he didn't know his a$$ from a hole in the ground. Too bad what it cost US.


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## studie (Oct 14, 2009)

I'm glad you started this post JAG. I also have been exploited in my work of late. Had to reduce my wage, make more for less ect. But I wont reduce my quality! I've seen jobs offered on CL like "we want 10 years experience with a truck and all tools for $15 per hr. I went from $55 to $40 just lately as a GC just to compete with poorly tooled hasty contractors and still didn't get the jobs. If the truly great craftsmen cant get what they're worth & loose jobs to the low bid JUNKERS then the whole community looses as bad work will always be a poor value. What if we just choose to call an independent strike! With all the illegals working for pennies on the dollar we would probably loose our house just the same. I have spent 10 years tooling up to be the best I can be and now find it hard to find any work that pays the bills. I've been in construction all my life & love to work but this is the worst of times I've ever seen. I hope for our country to pull together for the better and I believe it can, so don't give up hope AMERICA!


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I knew a good carpenter a couple years ago who told me he couldn't find any work as a carpenter. Was offered a foreman's job if he could speak Spanish. I mentioned on another post about 1500 citizens showing up at a lettuce plant in AZ looking for jobs when 30 illegals were deported. Why doesn't the news talk about the truth?

15 years ago, I was telling people employment is dying in this country. Everyone looked at me like I was nuts. Believe it now?


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## bigjoe4265 (May 16, 2010)

This isn't isolated to woodworking and trades. I'm 41, lost my Job Sept. 2008, and I'm considered obsolete (they only want to hire 20 somethings fresh out of school, as long as they're not Americans, so they can pay them nothing). Worked in IT for the last 15 years, and If I'm lucky I get a 3 month contract here, a 1 month contract there for nothing, no benefits, lousy pay. Corporations don't hire Americans, only H1-B visas. It's a sad state of affairs. We don't make anything anymore, which is obvious when you shop for almost anything, including power tools. There is no way we can sustain this country on a service based economy.

A few months back a recuriter told me that at 35, they have to market you differently. Disgusting!


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## Michael121 (Jun 30, 2008)

Hate to say it but don't just look at the employers. Look at what employing you cost. If you making 15/hr it costs the company 21-25/hr. Now with the who knows what health care costs that will be added it is going to get worse.

The good thing in a down economy is people stay in their homes and want a deck, a remodel and if you look are willing to pay for quality. It takes a while to weed out the cheap people. There are also a lot of older more comfortable people who have the money to spend and don't want the cheap contractor. They want someone who stands behind their work and shows up and get the job done.

More and more companies around Cincinnati are spending on their business more maintaining their bldgs. Adding security systems they didn't worry about before.

I have heard from people who were making 50/yr and they got raised to 60 or more. Companies will keep good employees. Bad employess may be offered cuts in pay because the bodies are still needed. It is just right now the companies do not know what is coming. They can pay a fine of 25% of what they would have paid out for healthcare with the bill, if they just don't offer it anymore. It is in the Obama Healthcare Plan.

In America we have not really had true capitalism for deacades. The gov is too involved in telling companies how to run themselves. Rasing taxes and fees. They have the balls to say the fee for this or that is going up but stress taxes are not. You send tax dollars to the gov so they can spend it. You send fees to the gov so they can spend it. Sounds the same to me.

Keep looking, it is the ones who have a good attitude, and the other day in a company hiring for another shift in printing, 45 people, only one person I saw being there for about a hour was dressed up. I was in a uniform shirt and the receptionist wanted to hand me an application. The GM who I was there to do some work for, was doing the interviews. He took the well dressed person who came in when I did and left the others sit.


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## ellen35 (Jan 1, 2009)

In our town, the local supermarket went out of business for no apparent reason about 3 years ago. There is a little convenience store in our village that immediately jacked up the prices of just about everything. Most people grumble but, when they need one or two things, they will get them there rather than drive the distance to the next town. You can bet that as soon as the new supermarket opens, this little store will be just about deserted. Why? For the very same reason that, when the economy picks up (and it will… it always does), your guy who is trying to stiff his employees will be out of business. Treat people unfairly in bad times and, when the good times return, they will treat you as you treated them. My guess is that he was using you as leverage to cut wages to his current employees and had no intention of hiring you. He wasn't being honest, he was being unethical. 
I'm glad you are working on something else… when something like this happens, it is always because a better opportunity is coming.
Good luck in your search and thanks for posting this worthwhile topic. We all need to remember to be fair to those we hire and those we work for.
Ellen


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## Eli (Mar 3, 2010)

You guys don't like capitalism, do you? Everyone knows that business suck right now. Why would this guy not look to fill his shop with quality workers? If he's being so unfair, it should be fairly easy to start a shop and hire quality workers for a fair wage. All of the skilled labour would flock to you and you can hire them all to sit around and not make any money.

Same story for the convenience store. How much is your time worth? Is it worth driving some distance for food. I'll bet you are saving money by buying locally.

Eli


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## JAGWAH (Dec 15, 2009)

I don't search for blame when I know the human spirit and it's propensity for greed. Greed exploits illiterate desparate immigrants. Iillegal or not they just want a job like the rest of us. The crime is, and the ones who need punishment are, the owners for the hiring. The owners need to go to jail for this.

Wage issues reflect market pressures. We import and market cheap products over quality products. Communities fall all over themselves to spend tax dollars to entice a business to their town with the added promise of a five year tax free haven then five years later those business's leave.

Labor has always been the first belt tightened and the first one blamed for cost not corporate profits.

This guys remarks showed his desire to profit off the back of the failing economy. Other companies make it sound better by stating ,"we're just streamlining and diversifying our work force. Sounds ok, right?

In 1980 I made a bit over $50,000 the following year i made a bit less than $9000. It wasn't untill '95 that I got back to the better earnings. Things will come around I just hope it doesn't take too long.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

US is the only country in the world that throws open its borders and markets to everyone else. Notice others on here talk about the high cost of importing foreign made tools? WE are in a form of national suicide, have been for the last 30 years. Make no mistake about it. US is still the largest economy in the world.

What has the gov't done to interfere with capitalism in the last few decades?


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

bigjoe4265, I have been wondering since before you got out of high school, how this economy is going to work when all the good jobs are over seas? Unfortunately, we will be finding out in the next couple of decades.


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## uffitze (Apr 23, 2010)

We're starting to get into the dangerous world of politics here, but I'll wade in anyway. (Even though I am not an economist and don't play one on TV, and even though I know it ia a big complicated subject.)

The way I see it is that the primary problem for the US economy is that we don't make anything (or much of anything) here anymore. In other words, we have become a service economy. So, the workforce has become less skilled, and therefore employers can pay less. Unfortunately, employers have begun to outsource even white collar design and development types of jobs. And, that makes the downward spiral all that much worse. Capitalism has slowly (or not so slowly) widened the gap between rich and poor. From my vantage point, I place the blame smack dab on cheap labor in developing countries, low taxes on imported goods, and the cheap price of oil. So, the powers that be (those with money, ie. the rich), have exploited the situation to make more money by importing cheap goods. And, by purchasing those cheap goods, we let them do it.

Unfortunately, I don't see things changing any time soon. It's going to take extreme political change and/or the rest of the world catching up to us before any real change happens.


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## ellen35 (Jan 1, 2009)

You know… we can rant about the economy, outsourcing, etc. but when push comes to shove, it is about how we choose to treat our employees and employers. If an employer looks on his/her employees as assets and skilled craftemen/women, then there is value. If all one does is sell to the highest bidder and that person does not value craftsmanship, then we deserve what we get. Personally, this is not about other countries or corporate America, this is about what we value in each other. Each of us can make a difference. Buy quality - sell quality. I know some of you will say that businesses will go under and people will lose jobs and maybe this is true… but it is because we do not work together to make a difference. End of my rant for today! And it is about woodworking!


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

uffitze, you hit the nail on the head.


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## JAGWAH (Dec 15, 2009)

Spot on, *Ellen*.


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

2 @ 4' x 10 solid quarter sawn fir interior doors…..................cancelled

1 media room in select cherry…..........................................cancelled

1 bedroom suite…............................................................cancelled

1 cottage bunkhouse….....................................................cancelled

1 cherry coffered ceiling…..................................................cancelled

14 luxury homes, kitchens and vanities…..............................cancelled

I get to keep my deposits so it isnt as bad as it could be but the above has taken place in the last 6 weeks. I still have work on my plate but it causes some concern.

My take on offering employees a pay cut or a lay off. A job with a smaller income is better then no job at all to a point? Auto mfg,s have done it, it would seem to be the way of the world right now. It the last recession I kept many men busy despite having little work and when %$#^ hit the fam not one of those dedicated workers/employees gave two cents or 2 free minutes of labour to save a ship from sinking. Its a 2 way street.

What really irks me here in Ontario are those who have the privilage of working for the feds ot the province. Full dental benefits, orthodontics, drugs, indexed pensions, guaranteed raises, almost 3 months in holidays and right here in Ontario when the last election took place there were less then 7,000 civil servants making in exess of 100K a year….....5 years later there over 65,000 making 100K plus, some of those drive a bus?

Guessing I will continue to work harder, smarter, longer for less $$$$


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## JAGWAH (Dec 15, 2009)

I worried making this post. I didn't want to come off like I wanted any pity. But you know I feel good bringing this up. Talking about my frustrations as many have here feels good. I don't have many friends that would understand and fewer of them that I want to know I'm down a bit.

But just venting helps a bit. I know it will pick up for all of us. Being stuck in a pity pot's not so bad when the pot's full of a lot of others like yourself. We can at least offer support to each other, applaude and attiboy any of us that also shares making it out of the pot.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Moron, It is the same way here in the US too. I heard on the radio the other day Gov't workers are the highest paying jobs with the best benefits on average.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Glad you are feeling better today JAGWAH


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

"When one door closes, another one opens" 
"it's always darkest before the dawn" 
"When life gives you lemons, make lemonade" 
"It is better to light a single candle, than to curse the darkness" 
Hey Jag, maybe you could compile a list of expressions of positive thought! er, ummm maybe they've all been copyrighted… never mind…


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## JAGWAH (Dec 15, 2009)

My personnel mantra is, "I am never where I don't belong."

The other I repeat just before I ask for my last jobs check is, "What's the least I can do wrong in the most obvious place that will give me maximum grief…look there first."

Then there's mine I used referencing my Dads talents, "Know the cheapest, cheesiest way you can do something and still have it look good, then do it." That was his style. Mine is know that but don't do it. Helps to know soy sauce makes a good dark stain in a pinch to cover your arse.

I call these Araisms after my first name Ara.


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## bigjoe4265 (May 16, 2010)

Listened to Neil Cavuto at 4 p.m. yesterday. He had Trump on the phone, and it was an interesting conversation. He said basically our leaders are stupid, we should be taxing the hell out of Chinese imports and paying off this debt. We do not have free trade, it's a joke. He also went on to say that he was taking bids on furnishing one of his hotels. Out of the 7 bidders, 6 were from China, the 7th from North Carolina. The Chinese products were garbage of course, and the furniture from North Carolina was of much better quality even though a little more expensive. Trump went with the NC mfr. Bravo!


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

@ Moron you forgot about a few cancellations that go along with your list…

Cable TV….....................canceled
Phone….........................canceled
Electricity….....................canceled
vacation plans…................canceled
New tools….....................canceled
eating…...........................canceled


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## HokieMojo (Mar 11, 2008)

David,
I could use the canceling of my cable and at least some of my eating. I feel for you on the other items.


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## grizzman (May 10, 2009)

im glad to see this talked about also…i think its great to be able to talk to the ones who understand our own problems…im not a politician but i do know that if we as a people stick together..we will all do ok…we might not be eating steak like we use too…but there will be bread on the table….and i think there are folks out there who have some pretty good ideas as to why this is happening..real glad to see trump go America..i think times are going to be tough and im afraid its going to be for some time…..but talking it out and helping each other is the key to me….......hang tight bob..and all other jocks who are going through tough times…we just have to be lean with what we do have and look for ways to stay afloat….......putting in a garden is a great way to save money at the store..the bigger the better…put food up like our relatives of old use to do..put up for the winter..its helped many get by when there was little…....still happy to make saw dust too….....grizzman


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## grizzman (May 10, 2009)

oh yea..i planted 55 tomato plants and 25 squash …and some peppers…nothing like a tomato sandwich…i know…the grizz talking of food again…when your around the house all day…and limited on shop time…it does come up more often…lol..


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## JAGWAH (Dec 15, 2009)

Ya my garden consist tho of only 3 tomatoes, 1 basil, 4 peppers, some leeks and a cucumber plant. Otherwise its giant sunflowers, daktura's (trumpet night blooming flower), moon flower vines and lots of other stuff. My front and back yard is a bit like an English garden. Theres boysenberries, bamboo, river cane, bee balm, iris's, lilies, sage. sweet pea, roses roses roses and on and on and on.

I only get through it thinking of what my granny said, "you can't do it all in a day so every day pick a weed." Slow gain but we get their.


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## JAGWAH (Dec 15, 2009)

Oh I forgot I grew bananas last year, unedible but who knew my bananas would bloom much less fruit.


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## wseand (Jan 27, 2010)

I am retired and not necessarily by choice. What can I offer to this discussion, maybe little. I fought long and hard to get where I am and came out with a few scares. My emphasis right now is to get my daughter through school and send her on her way, but be there when she needs me. I hope I have taught her enough to do the right things and make the right choices. I pride myself on the good work I did and continue to do when i can. I have my own garden and do small side jobs when I can. We all go through rough time and sometimes we come out ahead and sometimes behind. I guess what I want to say is, stay strong and vigilant, do the right thing and hope the mess we are in turns around. Hopefully we get away from supporting our government and others and get back to supporting ourselves. Support your local companies, schools, and governments. The hustle and bustle of the world today makes no room for the true craftsman. People want it fast and cheep, and don't worry about the consequences. I hope I didn't make a fool of myself or a mockery of this discussion it was not my intention.


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## Wood_smith (Feb 12, 2010)

Wseand,
Your words make total sense, and no, you certainly didn't make a fool of yourself. You are one of many thoughtful and honorable people on here. Lumberjocks is lucky to have such a wise group.
Hopefully people like you can turn things around for our countries, before the governments manage to totally screw things up!


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## Ger21 (Oct 29, 2009)

I worked in a union cabinet shop the last 15 years. Started sweeping the floor, then quickly moved up to shop foreman, then into the office programming the CNC machines, but still did some occasional work in the shop. In December, the shop closed their doors.

No union jobs available. But, I'm really good at what I do (CNC Stuff), and quickly had an offer. About 15% less than I was making. I've since had about 3 offers for slightly more money, but even the union shops don't want to put me back in the union, because I'm too expensive when all the benefits are added in. They can get around this by making it an office position, not subject to union wages.

What it comes down to, is that my skills are in demand. I can do every job in the shop better than everyone else, plus, I can do a lot of things that no one else can do (CNC software stuff). The more you know, and the better you are, the better your chances of finding work are.

I'm pretty sure that the majority of the 15-20 guys that I used to work with are still looking for work. I don't think shops are paying $9 here (Detroit), they're just not hiring, for the most part, as there are far more workers than there are jobs. But, if you're really, really good, there are jobs out there. But they don't pay quite what they would have 5 years ago.


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## wseand (Jan 27, 2010)

My cousin had a concrete company he started about 3 years ago, now he is working for just above minimum at a machine shop and that company is barely hanging on. There really is not enough work to go around, people are scared.


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## JAGWAH (Dec 15, 2009)

Wseand~ Nothing said on this post is out of line. We're all posting here our thoughts about a tough situation that we're all in together. We can have different views on a lot of things but at the end of the day we're just a bunch o guys and gals trying to pay the bills, feed our families and have a bit of something left over so we can feel it's worth it.

Now if we could all sit around and have a soda together,(just for you Grizz), and crack a few jokes it would be even better but this is ok for now.


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## dfletcher (Jan 14, 2010)

You know, after thinking about this, in my area, for a while, this I am finding to be true.

Anyone who can hold onto an existing business or start a fairly successful business now, will do well in the future. I started one out of necessity, not greed, and am doing well. Work is coming in, maybe not as much as I would like, but it is coming in. I take every small job that comes my way. Most have turned into larger jobs, or referrals for larger jobs.

I actually had to spend an entire day running estimates, which has never happened to me before. Granted, 4 yrs ago, I pulled in over 50k, last year I only pulled in 38k. This year looks to be a bit better, but not much.

The idea of any job is better than no job is, in my opinion, rubbish. There is a point where what you make an hour begins to cost you money instead of making you money. (Generally in gas, etc.)

Jag, I understand your plight and hope everyone here begins to do much better, quickly. It would do me well to see everyone here so busy with work that we weren't sure if we could handle it all and had to hire someone or two. Then our economy would begin to grow again.


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

bradnailer

u r funny


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## dmoney (Dec 20, 2009)

I'm always the optimist. 
It could get a lot worse and I'd still be better off than people elsewhere in the world. 
I don't spend most of my day searching for food/water like some people have to.


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## 308Gap (Mar 6, 2010)

I got free lawn care supplies and chemicals from my neighbor today, he's a city landscaper and brings home alot. I kinda see as my tax dollars comming home in a small way. I wonder why the CA budget is so bad, the state has 238,575 all with the best pension plan on the planet. The city doesn't want to post their stats but Sacramento is fairly large. When I was in high school I had a counselor tell me to get a govt. job so I would be covered for life. I didnt listen to her , now what. If I lose my house I'm moving to AZ.


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

if they cancel your cable TV cable satillite subscription….........u will spend more time woodworking


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Gerry, I saw this coming when the aircraft controllers were all fired in the 80s. Within a couple of years, we took a $4.50 cut in pay here in Seattle. Like you, I was good enough to have accounts follow me from employer to employer. I cut out the middle man, the boss. I didn't need an employer. Unfortunately, most can't do that.

It took the guys until the mid 90s to get back to where they were in 1980. Then most of the increases went to healthcare inflation. It will have to get worse before it can get better. Study the history of organized labor. They got us everything that is socially acceptable today. Until there is organization, the race to the bottom will continue.

Teddy Roosevelt said at the turn of the 20th century, a man working 40 hours a week should be able feed his family, educate his kids, take a vacation once in a while and save enough for a retirement. Those were radical words for that time. It was achieved briefly in the post WWII years. Now, at the turn of the 21st century, Trickle Down Economics have destroyed most of those gains.


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## CryptKeeper (Apr 28, 2010)

I'm reading this thread and it all sounds so familiar like I have been here before. Oh wait, I have been here before and here is my story:

In the mid 80's, my dad rest his soul, couldn't buy a job anywhere in the South. He was carpenter and cabinet maker with a lot of experience as an iron worker and ship fitter - he had a knack for picking up and mastering the trades. For those of you who don't remember interest rates were over 12% on mortgages and there was no construction going on.

As I started looking for my first job he told me if I ever picked up a tool with intention of making a living he would break my arm (he was serious). I went to work for a local grocery store making $4.80 an hour he was making $4.00 an hour in a cabinet shop. A few years went by and he went to work for a local shipyard in their cabinet shop where he retired 1999 making ~$12 an hour. I was still working as a manager with my first employer the salary was ~$1000 per week plus bonus for a 55-60 hour work week.

By this time Wal-mart moved into the area and saturated the market with their low prices and low wages. On July 1, 2000, the company I worked for called all of the managers in for a meeting and it went something like this: Guy's we appreciate all the hard work you have done to keep the company afloat in this rough economic time and we want to make life better for you so we're going to put you all back on the clock and you can only work 40hrs a week with no overtime. Oh, by the way we're going to pay you $10.25 an hour and look at it like this it is still more than Wal-mart pays.

In fifteen years I had never missed a day of work. July 4th I threw a huge party for all of our friends (and I may have had 1 or 2 too many) and called sick on July 5th. July 5th the wife and I decided it was time for me to move on I used all of my vacation time and haven't looked back.

As I contemplated my future my dad had this to say, "Son, as long as you're signing the back of the check and not the front you're screwed."

I haven't been able to sign the front of the check yet but I'm always looking for the opportunity.


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## j_olsen (Sep 19, 2009)

Well I can't hold a candle to most of you here as far as being a craftsman but the whole job thing hits home.
I have been out of work for 13 months now-I am a draftsman and have primarily worked in retail store fixtures for the last 15 yrs and there just isn't anything out there. I had a phone interview with a company in the Cleavland, OH area a few weeks back which I had a face to face interview with the engineering manager a year ago-to make a long story short - i was turned down for the position because I didn't ask questions!!!
Now like i said I had interviewed with this company a year ago and remembered thier client list and told them who they were and reminded them that I had been there before-everything seemed to go fine during the interview until they asked what I was looking for as far a pay range-kinda thinking that it's the same thing JAGWAH is talking about-there are so many out there they can pick and choose and offer sub par pay 
just my 2 cents


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

CryptKeeper , One of the things that fueled the recession in construction in the 80's was the Business Roundtable deciding their costs were too high. They all decided not to build anything to break the trade unions. They did a pretty good job of it except for a few pockets on the east and west coasts. The Business Roundtable is the CEOs of the 500 largest companies in the US.

These are the same people who have moved all their headquarters to a PO Box in the Camen Islands. Even though we have a corp income tax in the US, they don't pay any because they are not US companies. Now that the people aren't making any money to pay taxes on, just who do they think is going to pay the bills?


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## JAGWAH (Dec 15, 2009)

And yet with work so slow I get a call yesterday from a new sports bar about a hitching post at the front door that's lossened from the floor. I tell them my service call rates of $65 and material for the first hour. They say great.

I just got back, took me 40 minutes and the owners exstatic, says she'll have more for me soon. When I ask how she got my number she says she googled for a local carpenter and my company name popped up…really?

Well isn't that cool. Now if I could get 2 of these a day I could stay afloat until a bigger job comes.

Small victories that's all we can ask for. Just a bone every now and then helps keep the illusion we're ok.


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## wseand (Jan 27, 2010)

Little victories JAG that's what is all about. I am sure you will win some big ones in your future. Great to hear you found something to keep the spirits up.


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## ellen35 (Jan 1, 2009)

Good for you JAG. Things will pick up quicker than you know… that woman will tell another who will tell another and, before you know it, you'll be doing what you love.
Ellen


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## lanwater (May 14, 2010)

Wow!

I think it is very unethicall for anyone to pressure his/her employees this way. It is a bad business practice.
A responsible employer will take into account the number of years of training /adjusting/learning and experience that employees accumulate while working for the company. Of course there is also the fact that customer get used to the employees and make it easier doing business.

I think we are all responsible for the current situation. We did not shout enough for our washington and local representatives to hear us loud and clear. Jobs should stay right here, not overseas. we are allowing cheap imports from india, china and elsewhere in the name of free trade but that hurts many famillies right here.
Of course all the tax breaks and taxes (that other members have mentionned above) that many companies gett away with does not make the situation better.

I hope my post does not break any forum rule, I am new here and still have to re-read the rules.

Whish all of you the best!


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## pommy (Apr 17, 2008)

Bob times are hard and yes it may be wrong what this guy is doing, but we here in the UK have had that for twenty years with the East Europians coming to our country.
Ii was on a contract two years back earning £165 a day, when my brother in law who was the site charge hand came in one day and called all the English carpenters to a meeting, and we were told to pack our things up.
The boss had gone to Poland and with the help of a Engilsh employment agentcy had got all his labour there at half the price he was paying us.
But the draw back is that the work is a lower quality but people don't seem to care.


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## mvflaim (Dec 8, 2009)

There's always going to be an asshole in the world. It's up to you whether or noy you're going to listen to the asshole. Misery loves company.


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## Sawmillnc (Jan 14, 2010)

Good Luck to you JAGWAH. Never undermine your skill sets, always do your best, give 110% and put your heart into your work!.. Is my Motto.


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