# Hand plane selection - Japanese or western



## Praki (Jun 17, 2007)

Folks,

As a newbie with a limited budget, I am faced with making tough decisions. I don't have a jointer or planer. I have decided to stick with preparing stock by hand. This is not such a big deal for me as woodworking is more for relaxation and I grew up watching my cousins building traditional furniture with nothing but hand tools. I have no deadlines to meet or customers to please - save the LOML!

My question is about western and Japanese style planes. My understanding is that, traditional Japanese woodworking uses lumber that is softer. Would the Japanese style planes work well with hardwoods as well? If there is anybody here that has experience with Japanese style planes, I would love to hear their thoughts.

Cheers,
Praki


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## Radish (Apr 11, 2007)

No experience, just an observation. I think that a fair amount of us that maybe considered going oriental were persuaded to abandon that idea because setting the iron with a hammer is another part of the learning curve. Stanley or Norris style adjusters seemed more natural and more carefree. The fact that I inherited a fair handful of old pre-war Bailey pattern planes really swung it for me.

I love Japanese pattern saws and chisels, and the metallurgy of the plane irons are fascinating. That, and seeing what can be done with the Krenov style wooden-bodied planes (Phillip Edwards and Rentman are two recent LJ's that have posted beautiful wooden-bodied planes recently) make giving these beauties a try seem like a worthy option.

I think either style of plane will work well on hardwoods. You might have to take a bit more care with the soles of oak-bodied planes, but the steel is up for anything.

Another option, recently blogged by Wayne C. explores the option of rehabilitating any of the thousands of Bailey pattern planes that have entered the market as "antiques". If you're up to a little self-education and sweat-equity in lapping the sole and side and cleaning up the body, frog, adjusting mechanisms and sharpening the iron (or getting a thicker Hock iron and chipbreaker), you might get the cheapest deal that way. Plus you might give the tool that was a mainstay of some deceased cabinet-maker's toolkit a second life, as well as make that plane your own through a little hard work. It's pretty satisfying to make long thin curls with the plane you rescued from the rust pile.


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## Tangle (Jul 21, 2007)

I agree with Douglas. I don't think it matters which plane you use as long as you use it well. If you'll look at the photos of my shop you will see a wall of planes that I use. almost all were purchased on E-Bay. I doubt that I have $300 in the whole bunch. That and a bunch of sweat. You can get by with 5 planes. Some kind of a block, a #5 jack, #4 smooth, #92 shoulder plane and #7 or 8 jointer. It would also help to have a set of scrapers: card, #80 and a #112. Take a little time and study how E-bay works and who the reputable dealers are. Pay attention to how much you will be paying for shipping. Some of these guys floor the deal by jacking up the shipping. You want to stay away from collectable planes and stay with good solid users.

When you get a plane in, the first thing to do is strip it down to components and clean it up. I use an old stamp block which is a 3 inch thick pieced of granite about 20 inches long. You could use a thick piece of glass and then use the same glass for the Scary Sharp system. I use Porter-Cable stick on sand paper, 120 grit and 320 grit to lap the bottom and sides of the plane. This is sweat equity and an education in plane tuning. The sides don't have to be perfect but the bottom needs to be flat. You'll be able to see this as you work. When you lap the bottom of a plane, push it forward for a while and then push it backward for a while. This increases the possiblity that it will grind flat. I use a nozzle on the air compresser to blow the steel dust out of the sandpaper. This can take a while but in the end you will have a plane with a flat bottom. The next thing is to sharpen the iron. Use some kind of jig. Get Garrett Hack's plane book, check out how David Charlesworth sharpens irons. Check with Phil here and Wayne and decide how you want to sharpen your irons. I keep one #4 set at a York pitch and one at 25 degrees and one for rough work. I personally sharpen more like GH and just relieve the corners on my irons but I understand why David sets a slight curve in his irons. By the time you learn how to tune and use your planes you will be ready to do some outstanding work with them. When I am really honked off about the world in general, I go to the shop and surface plane a board with my planes. There is something about the feel of a well tuned iron cutting a perfect shaving. Even with a shop full of tools, sometimes the best solution is a plane.Let me know how you do or if you have questions, here is the place to ask.
Tom


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## Frank (Nov 19, 2006)

Hello Praki;
--as I have noted and have wrote about some insights before on this, let me ask you….*How is your back? *

There is in woodworking an area that I call 'western' and 'eastern' thought and this is what you need to determine as start exploring tools like chisels, saws and hand planes. Much of 'western' thought in woodworking centers around the fact that western saws and hand planes are meant to cut and shave on the 'push stroke', while in the eastern tradition of woodworking, their saws and hand planes cut on the 'pull stroke'. You may have wondered as to why I asked you about your back, but maybe now you are starting to understand why I ask! Different muscles and different stance are involved here, and then there is what I call the major dividing line here and that is the different approach and way of thinking that will become your signature to working wood.

This difference is in the thinking process involved as you begin your journey with wood and I only mention this since you have said you are a "newbie with a limited budget". And to tell you the truth, you are in a very good place at the moment since you can gather information and then make a knowledgeable decision. The tools you are buying now, will in the years ahead give back to you a thank you in the wood projects, they help you to shape.

I might add here that Japanese hand planes are used for both hardwood and softwood and are called after their name of 'kanna' which evolves from the earlier style of Japanese hand plane which was called 'Tsuki-kanna' and this one back in the 16th and 17th century originally cut on the push stroke. Even here in eastern thought there appears to be some division in the way of woodworking and thinking, since the early Chinese hand planes worked also on the push stroke along with European thought. Somewhere in the 17th century or so, the Japanese split off from using the style and design of the 'Tsuki-kanna' and hence the name for their hand plane was shortened to 'kanna'. At this time I imagine the Japanese woodworkers also had to get some new backs as their planes now started shaving on the pull stroke.

One now must start coming to an understanding that Japanese carpenters and temple builders were coming to a major shift in their approach to woodworking. In my opinion the Japanese hand planes can shave the wood in a much finer sliver then the planes of the west as Japanese woodworking evolves more around simple flat design and working of the wood with hand planes. After they are done hand planing, the edges of the wood are then decorated with chisels to achieve the finished look. The idea that I am trying to convey here is that by their approach to removing wood in finer shaves, they are also able to much greater expose the character and style of the wood in a finished project. Again here we get into the difference between 'western' and 'eastern' thought in woodworking. As I have wrote on Japanese chisels, so also can I make this point here on their hand planes and that is that eastern thought is about first cut is the finish cut, while western thought is more on several cuts and then clean up. When the Japanese carpenter makes his cut with the chisel, the cut is made right on the line and that is the finish cut, while European carpenters, (from which we evolve) are taught to go to the inside of the line and then clean up after. Let me add that there is no one way here or right and wrong….it's just what you are after in a finished product.

Also I would clarify the above statement by Douglas and I'm sure he would agree that when he mentions setting the iron with a "hammer", he is really saying 'mallet', as no woodworker would disrespect his hand plane with a hammer. I read the story once of the displeasure that was heaped upon an apprentice from a master, because the apprentice was caught stepping over his masters hand saws. Easter thought takes a different view of tools and woodworking then we here in the west are accustomed to, much like the no-no of stepping on a threshold when you enter someones house….watch that threshold and please step over, but don't step over my handsaw….please go around. I know that to some this may seem a small thing, but then how you respect your tools is also how you respect your wood and then there's the matter of how we respect each other….

I hope I have helped some here on the approach to Japanese hand planes and I will now clear the air here so I can make way and room for any who would like to give their inputs as to western style hand planes. As you may start to guess, I prefer working the wood by hand, with hand tools that carry no motors and I also love eastern thought.

Thank you.
GODSPEED,
Frank


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## Tangle (Jul 21, 2007)

Well said, Frank.


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## Radish (Apr 11, 2007)

Your right, Frank. I didn't want to suggest that you haul off and whack your eastern plane around with your Estwing or Death Stick. I was actually thinking of the Lee Valley-Veritas plane hammer with the wooden insert on one end and the belled brass face on the other (item no.50K56.01). There, I slipped in a plug for my favorite Woodworking and Hardware source.

Maybe it's time to move the catalogues out of the bathroom… Naw.

Tools, tools, tools, tools, tools, tools, tools, tools, tools, tools, tools, tools, tools, tools, tools, tools, tools, tools.


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## WayneC (Mar 8, 2007)

LOL Douglass. Tools, tools, etc.

Also, I belive cost is a factor. Decent planes are not cheap. Western style planes are much more available. Especially on the used market. Most Japanese planes I have seen are fairly expensive. Rehabilitating and tuning a few used stanley planes is a good way to get your feet wet. Also, making one would be a good experience.

I may have to put in my plug for a hammer from my new favorite woodworking store.

http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/html_p/G900.htm


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## Praki (Jun 17, 2007)

Douglas - thanks for your advice and the pointer to the hand planes projects.

Tom - thanks also for your insight on this. I will start hunting on ebay for planes. I have found it very difficult to find reputable dealers. At least on two separate occasions, I paid good money for garbage. I am also curious if you were able to reuse the blades from the 'antique' planes you bought from ebay or you replaced the blades. If you have any recommendation for blades, I would like to know. I have seen a number of references to Hock, Lie-Nielsen and wondering if there are other choices. Also, any opinions on the type of steel - HSS, O1 or M2?

Frank - thanks for your long and thoughtful reply. You have taught me more about hand planes than what I was able to find from Google. Funny you should ask about my back! I did have some trouble with my lower back a few years ago and some rest and physical therapy took care of it. Of course I don't want to do anything that would be send me back to therapy. I think I will have to see if push or pull works better for my back. If it turned out to be bad for my back, it would be very disappointing to give up the idea of preparing stock with hand planes though.

Wayne - I found a lot of western hand planes with a wide price range but almost all Japanese hand planes that I found were very expensive. As price is an issue, Western hand planes do look attractive. Thanks for the link.

All of your responses have been very helpful and educational. I thank you all!

Cheers!


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## Tangle (Jul 21, 2007)

Praki,

When looking at planes on E-Bay I look at the photo to see how long the plane iron is. You will be able to tell a full iron after a while. The length of iron is also a clue as to how used the plane is. Many were never used at all. They were bought and used once or twice and then put on a shelf for 30 years. Most of mine have Stanley irons. I replaced one iron with a Hock and I bought a Clifton two piece chip breaker for a 3 but didn't like the Clifton. The Hock iron is heavier than a Stanley Bailey but seemed to be a little softer. It does good work. There is no reason I know of that you can't pull Western style planes. I do it all the time. 
Something else to think about is that Craftsman planes were made by Sargent. I have several Sargent planes and really like them. I also use a Craftsman Jointer that I paid $25 for. It is by far one of the best planes I have. I also have a brand new Craftsman #4 that cost $10 plus shipping. At present I use it for rough work but it is capable of very fine work as well. Don't bother with a #78 Stanley or a #75. I've got both and they are wall hangers. I'm sure there is at least one 78 fan reading this but I still haven't been able to get any use out of them. If you are building furniture be sure to get some kind of shoulder plane. You will find that you use it constantly. Next to having at least one sharp chisel I just need that plane. The wood doesn't care what cuts it; a $ 10 plane that is tuned right will do better work than a poorly tuned plane that cost $325.

I also learned a lot from Franks comment. Thanks for the info, Frank.
Your local Woodcraft Store has irons and totes and knobs for replacement.


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## chscholz (Mar 29, 2007)

Praki,

The Old Chinese produced stunning pieces of furnitures with planes that are essentially large spokeshaves. They also preferred gnarly old hardwood species that pretty much nobody else dares to touches. 
Today Chinese planes are the most under-rated hand tools on the market. Mujingfang is a tradename under which some of these panes are sold from various well known veondors. H.N.T. Gordon manufactures a modern interpretation of these planes at very competitive prices. These type of planes routinely score very high in comarative planing tests (see for example Derek Cohen's or Alf's plane reviews). There is a lot of mis-information on the web, Chinese planes are generally pushed (as opposed to the Japanese planes; there is type of plane often called 'Taiwanese-style' plane, this appears to be a blend of Japanese pull plane and Chinese materials.) Even Lee-Valley's photograph for the "Hong Kong style plane" is misleading.

Concerning your question on steel types. I always recommend to use A2, HSS (such as M2; A2 is often called HSS, technically that is not correct) or vacuum-cryo-hoopla blades for planes that are used for rough stock removal (Scrub planes, Jack planes and such). Use the high carbon steel or O1 blades for smoothers and keep them razer sharp (which is easy to do free-hand with laminated blades). If you are just starting out with hand tools I strongly recommend to use a good high carbon steel or O1 blade and invest enough time to learn how to sharpen quickly. After all, a plane is just a holder for a blade. With a not so sharp blade any plane, (Stanley, Steve Knight, Chinese, Japanese, no matter how expensive) is just an exercise in frustration.

Chris


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## Praki (Jun 17, 2007)

Thos,

The ebay tips are much appreciated. I had no inkling about the plane iron length! I am heartened to hear I don't have to spend an arm and a leg to get a decent plane. I will keep my eyes open for craftsman/sargent planes.

Thanks,
Praki


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## Praki (Jun 17, 2007)

Chris,

I just discovered Mujingfang planes a few days ago on Google. They look very nice.

Thanks for the answers on which steel to use. This is great information!


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## Tangle (Jul 21, 2007)

Praki,

That is some good info from Chris also. It sure is fun to learn, isn't it?


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## Radish (Apr 11, 2007)

Praki-
If you decide to go the eBay route, you should know about auction sniping. Google "auction snipe" and you will find several free services and several pay sites that hold your bid and enter it within the last several seconds of an auction. That way you don't: get in a bidding war, inflate the price early with a bid, never go over your stated "best bid". And you don't have to be there at the auction end. A lot of times if the auction is midweek, or at some time that is inconvenient for folks, you will be able to "walk in" and steal the auction at the last minute. It may seem like cheating, but it levels the playing field, especially if you are on dial-up. And there are other snipers out there…it's business…it's war!

By waiting for a mid-week auction, I was able to recently get a 15/16×6˝ x 5 foot hunk of Purpleheart for 17 bucks plus shipping (28 bucks all told). Gotta love it. Good luck on the plane search. 
I'm off to a farm sale (another good way to get old tools) this morning…


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## Frank (Nov 19, 2006)

Hello to all;
--well it's good to see discussion going on here and all the wonder-full information being passed around….

Chris;.... glad to see you weighing in with your comments here, I haven't heard much from you since some months ago when we talked about Chigiritsugi and 'wood joinery'. If you ever want to share some more photos of Chinese 'wood joinery', I would appreciate the information that you possess from your travels over there.

Well lets take a look at some of those *MuJingFang Factory hand planes*:

....the wood to be used










....and more wood stacked










....working area










....human foot vise










....more on workshop area










....fitting blade










My thanks to:
Lee Valley Tools
Lie-Nelson Toolworks Inc.
Hand Plane Blog
Rob Lee at Woodwork Forums

Thank you.
GODSPEED,
Frank


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## Tangle (Jul 21, 2007)

Now, Frank, that's an interesting post. Neat photos. The planes are obviously hand made, no doubt about it.
The company must furnish the shirts. Thanks Frank


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## Praki (Jun 17, 2007)

Douglas,

I had never heard of "ebay sniping". I guess the learning never stops on LJ.

Thanks,
Praki


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## Radish (Apr 11, 2007)

Sniping - Picked that up from a lady named Forest Girl at FWW Knots. I'd never heard of it until about a year and a half ago, and at the time I *was* on dial-up. It really makes a difference, and as I said great for inconvenient times for auction end.


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## Praki (Jun 17, 2007)

Frank,

Those are, indeed, interesting pictures. It brings me back memories of my uncle and his sons working pretty much the same way with hand tools and holding the work piece with their foot (this was more than 25 years ao in a little town in India). Sans the nice shirts, of course  I wish I had some photos from those times to post here.

Thanks for the links of Hand Plane Blog and Rob Lee.

Praki


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## Praki (Jun 17, 2007)

Thos,

This is like drinking from the fire hose! Ever since I discovered LJ, it has been a phenominal source of inspiration, ideas and help. I learnt a lot just by lurking and the help I have gotten for my direct questions has been great!

Thanks to all!

Praki


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## Tangle (Jul 21, 2007)

You're welcome. Pass it on.


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## Tangle (Jul 21, 2007)

Oh Praki,
I just thought of something else; decide how much you are willing to pay for a plane on E-Bay and DO NOT go past that amount! Period. No matter which one you want there will be a better one up for sale tomorrow. There are no shortages of Stanley planes in the foreseeable future. Don't be a sucker.

Douglas, snipers have a bad rep on E-Bay. Mainly because most of us don't know how it works. Now we know. If I were Praki, I'd use one.


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## Praki (Jun 17, 2007)

Thos - I have found from experience, it is easy to get caught up in the auction fever and engage in a bidding war only to regret it later. Deciding on your upper limit and sticking to it is definitely wise. I intend to just that.

You mentioned you bought a new Craftsman for $10? May I ask for some details on the model and where you bought it? I haven't found anything near that price even at the local Home Depot.

Thanks,
Praki


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## chscholz (Mar 29, 2007)

Thanks Frank, 
those are great photos, thank you. Anybody noticed the tea cups? 
A few days ago I got hold of the Lu Ban jing (15th century carpenters manual, translation by Klaas Ruitenbeek from 1996). Fascination book. There's a whole world of woodworking at the highest level that is largely unknown to us.


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## Tangle (Jul 21, 2007)

Praki,
It was the first plane I bought on E-Bay. $10 plus shipping, $18 and some odd cents total. It was a brand new, in the box #4 size smoothing plane. It wasn't anything I really wanted I just bid once and got it. It works as well as any of my other planes. Sorry if you thought I got it at a store. I don'tthink modern Craftsman planes are the same. The old ones were made by the Sargent Co.


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## Frank (Nov 19, 2006)

Hello again there Chris;
--and yes, the tea cups were one of the first items I noticed in that frame, but then I'm a tried and true, hard nosed tea drinker myself. And after all, the art of tea is much like the art of wood…..

Also thanks for the lead on the Lu Ban jing, I actually have heard of this one before, but then I forgot to follow up. I will start a interstate library loan search today and see what that turns up.

Good words there where you said; "There's a whole world of woodworking at the highest level that is largely unknown to us." and much like in a previous write up you did, where you made the following comment; "It might be instructive to note that dovetail joints play a minor role in Chinese furniture construction and Chinese woodworkers consider dovetail joints to be one of the easy types of joints."

As far as the dovetails go, I think this centers around the difference in 'western' and 'eastern' thought. We of the west like to show off our dovetails and wood working joints, kind of like stroking the ego….you stroke my ego and I'll stroke yours. And so without much study into making 'wood joints' we hear everyone talking about dovetails when there are in reality hundreds out there and most of those never again see the light of day once they are fitted together.

I am thinking now of 'stub tenons' used in the joining of table legs to tops under compression fit: *Jug Mechigai Tsugi* and *Kaneori Mechigai Tsugi* and then there are the 'blind stub tenons', *Hako Mechigai Tsugi *and *Ogihozo Imo Tsugi* which also are not visible, but align the joints while also resisting twisting and warping. Great 'wood joints' here, but once they are in place no-one will ever see them….no-ego to stroke here in this kind of woodworking.

I have used various types of un-seen 'wood joints' in woodworking and the unseen joints do not sell, while the joints that sell are the common and favorites, which I no-longer do.

Now this all brings us back to your statement about there being "a whole world of woodworking at the highest level that is largely unknown to us." My drift off into the world of eastern woodworking came from studying timber framing and post and beam, and yes there is a difference….although I won't go into that for now. I was reading a book by *Ted Benson*; "*Building the Timber Frame House*" and Part 1 the Past, chapter 1 where on page 3 he states….

"If Japanese carpentry was highly evolved, it was also fiercely competitive. The craft was developed within a family guild system that maintained tight security over construction techniques and strict authority concerning procedure among it's members. Intense rivalry between the major guilds had the positive effect of keeping the standards high; a languid or sloppy attitude could not be tolerated in the heat of contest. But in the attempt to outdo one another, these guilds often produced joints much more puzzling than they were effective. *Still, they developed over four hundred joints, and many are still in use today.* Japanese tradition has also given modern carpenters a special appreciation for their tools."

My leaving the tradition of western thought as the only way, happened here around this time and I am thank-full for those words I read as this started my exploring into the areas of eastern thought and woodworking. Well once again I will clear the airways here and allow any-other's to comment….

Thank you.
GODSPEED,
Frank


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## Harold (Nov 13, 2007)

So much good information, we have a large asian community here in Hawaii. The one thing I found interesting is actually shown in frank's pictures, virtually all the work is completed in a seated position. I sat for several hours watching an Japanese craftsman replace the handrails near a Japanese steak house we love. I have never before been so humbled, the splice joints he used in the handrails was incredible, i can't even explain it, but it was secured with small wedges as he installed it. And get this, he never seemed to fit anything as he worked. You would have to be there, it really shook my world. You know the greatest thing about the world we live in, is that we have access to the world for the first time in history, and as far as woodworking there is literally several thousand years of knowledge in Asian woodworking that has remained almost unchanged all this time.


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## Daren (Sep 16, 2007)

Very interesting topic. I do not have anything to add other than I as a hand plane user (and experimental plane builder) really appreciate this bit of knowledge I gained by reading it. I joined LJ as a lark (thought I knew "everything"). I have knowledge to share,but I seem to gain 2X that every time I visit. See you all tomorrow, and the next…


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## keroucscabbie (Aug 16, 2009)

Hello,

I am now selling Mujingfang Wood Panes on Ebay. I live and work in China, so you receive them at the lowest possible price. Full line of Ebony, Rosewood, and Oak body wood planes will be coming.

Right now I have a limited amount of items available, but as time goes on I will be adding more items. If there is something specific you are looking for just ask and I will track it down. I often add the items recommended by my customers.

Inexpensive, Secure, Trackable shipping available World-Wide

These planes are recommended by Japanese Woodworker website and many others.

Goto Ebay and Search for Mujingfang or my store: The Cab Stand

http://stores.shop.ebay.com/The-Cab-Stand

Thanks


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## Beginningwoodworker (May 5, 2008)

I use western hand planes, but I think the Japanese planes will do just as fine of a job.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

interesting Frank
I use western planes


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## PurpLev (May 30, 2008)

I have both, and it really boils down to what's available in your area. both will work just as well as long as they are properly tuned, and sharp.


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## marcb (May 5, 2008)

I vote western planes just because you say you're on a budget and you can find them 2nd hand.

You'll need (depending on how rough your stock is)


No 5 - this takes down high spots on the side to be intiially jointed. not for full board work, just bad areas.
No 7 - make it flat

Flip the board and mark the thickness. Now pull out your


No 40 and go to town and get the board knocked down to size.

Now pull the 5 out and fix up the areas you did a bad job ot (a 40 isn't the easiest tool to do consistant work with) The board should be parallel when you are done.

Now pull out the 7 again and get it consistent


No 4 or 3 or for wider stuff 4 1/2 (not cheap like the other 2 smoothers can be) to make it nice and smooth.


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## Thuzmund (Dec 9, 2013)

I think that for starting out, a new 280mm jack plane from AliExpress ($15) with a HSS blade upgrade ($12) would work very well for most purposes. It will be cheap too for a brand new plane. The wood is really hard and mine came dead flat and pretty much ready to go. Oh yeah you can get Japanese style with no handles on Amazon, something like 250mm for $12. So if you can use these services where you are, your entry point is like $15 to try out a plane. If you are in Asia someplace, I bet AliExpress will be the way to go. Just beware and use a trustworthy seller. I've received wrong items from them sometimes.

If you are in the USA, used metal planes on eBay or at flea markets are about the same cost but need an afternoon of TLC to set up. In the long run, the metal sole will wear better, obviously. And it eliminates that one extra learning requirement-setting the iron depth with a mallet. But otherwise, I can't think of a single thing that makes a metal plane "better." 100% they are just as effective, and setting the iron with a mallet isn't really that hard, and you will learn what it's all about in an afternoon.

Just start with a sharp blade, and ease gently into the cut (first swipes no wood shaved, lower blade a bit until you just start taking shavings, and decide if you want to take a thicker cut from there). The technique of planing (going with the grain, etc) is the same with either.


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## Ocelot (Mar 6, 2011)

The original post on this thread was 11 years ago.


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## Praki (Jun 17, 2007)

It's quite a weird feeling to get a response after all these years!

Maybe I should bring closure to this by sharing my journey since. I settled on western planes (mainly Stanley). After watching Paul Sellers, I realized I was concerned about tools much more than I needed to. What has been important is the skill needed to use these tools and going with what is available readily for a bargain price has influenced my tool buying more than anything. TBH, I am very happy with #3, #4, #5, #7, #55 and #95 that I picked up for very reasonable prices. I don't need any expensive remakes as these work fabulously well.


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