# Strange wavy growth lines on red oak



## SycSlim (Oct 1, 2018)

I came across a red oak tree that had recently been cut by a road crew. It had strange "growth rings" that were very wavy. The large pores form normal concentric rings, but there are dark lines associated with them that wander off the path and even cross other growth rings.


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## Cricket (Jan 15, 2014)

You can upload images directly to LumberJocks.
http://lumberjocks.com/CricketW/blog/114193


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## SycSlim (Oct 1, 2018)

Here are some strange growth lines I found on a red oak that had just been cut. Has anyone seen this before? Do you know what causes it? Is it valuable enough to save? Thanks!


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## SycSlim (Oct 1, 2018)

Here are some strange growth lines I found on a red oak that had just been cut. Has anyone seen this before? Do you know what causes it? Is it valuable enough to save?


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## SycSlim (Oct 1, 2018)

Sorry for the repeats. I can't seem to figure out out to delete the extras. I go to edit, delete all that I put in, and hit "Save Changes", but it's all still still. What am I supposed to do?


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

That is bizarre. Not sure what is causing that but I do not think that those are actually the growth rings. It looks to me that you can actually see the much fainter concentric rings there too with the odd lines crossing the growth rings (just noticed you pointed that out in one of the pictures). An extreme close up of the the lines might help.

Can you tell if the tree was already dead before it was cut? Anything unusual about where it was growing (surrounded by asphalt for example)?


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## SycSlim (Oct 1, 2018)

It was dying, which is why the street crew took it down, but it still had some green leaves (which is why I know it was a red oak). I just took another photo of the tree location so that you can see what was around it. The road is 14 ft away from it. Nothing unusual near it on the other sides.

I've also enlarged the sand surface photo above. I'm glad to know I'm not the only one who has not come across this before. Still I'm betting someone out there has at least seen the phenomenon. It could make for some interesting, if not beautiful, furniture - small table tops perhaps.


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## JayT (May 6, 2012)

Never seen it before, either. Interesting that it doesn't follow the bands of large pores, which appear to be pretty concentric in the last pic. Whatever the casue, that could make for some amazing figure in projects and turnings.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

It's got me stumped. It doesn't seem to follow any of the normal structures in the wood (rays or ring pores). They do sort of circle the center but cross ring boundaries. There are also none in the recent sapwood so it doesn't seem to affect the living tissue of the tree (only the sapwood and outward of a tree is generally alive). It doesn't look like any fungus I've ever seen either. Do all of the chunks show this pattern?

This picture sort of looks like there is some sort of substance in those inclusions. 








You might just smell them to make sure that it doesn't have some weird chemical smell or an oily texture that might be a problem.


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## SycSlim (Oct 1, 2018)

Response from poster: "Got me stumped" - good pun Lazyman and also a good suggestion to smell it. I took a whiff of a handful of the shavings - smelled a lot like fresh cut red oak to me. But women can smell better than men, so I asked my wife to try. She said it smelled like gasoline and 2-cycle oil with an essence of chain bar lubricant! But seriously, neither she nor I could smell anything unusual. A guy at my local sawmill asked if it were in a place where it got regular fertilizer. He thought some components of the fertilizer might be taken up and then leaching irregularly into the surrounding wood. I ran this by a friend of mine who is a botanist (but not a forester). He said he thought that unlikely "for reasons that are a bit long to explain". However, if we all keep striking out, I'll ask him for the explanation. Also good point about the sap wood, that seems bizarre to me. In answer to the question about "do all the chunks follow this pattern" - only in the lower part of the tree. You can see in an earlier photo that the limbs don't show it. Good suggestion to show close up. Here it is. I can go closer if someone would like


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

Hah, I wish I were clever enough to realize I was making a pun.

If it was caused by recent uptake of something from the soil, it would also be in the sapwood as that is the part of the tree that is still actively transporting water and nutrients up the tree. The heartwood typically does not transport once it is dead. My last theory is that this could just be an odd way that the heartwood is concentrating the tannins and other minerals that cause it to darken naturally.

The only other thing I can think of is to peel some bark off and make sure that there are not any fungal mats that could indicate a disease such oak wilt that you would not want to risk spreading to your own trees, though I have never seen this as a symptom of that. You didn't say where you live but if it is Texas that could be a possibility, especially since it was dying.


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## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

Couldn't this just be some sort of spalting? Agreed, it's more structured than spalting normally is but it being present only in the lower portion of the tree and only in the dead areas lead me to believe it's some sort of fungus. A unique one!

Does it present as spalting on end/long grain faces?


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## SycSlim (Oct 1, 2018)

Response from poster: "Got me stumped" - good pun Lazyman and also a good suggestion to smell it. I took a whiff of a handful of the shavings - smelled a lot like fresh cut red oak to me. But women can smell better than me, so I asked my wife to try. She said it smelled like gasoline and 2-cycle oil with an essence of chain bar lubricant! But seriously, neither she nor could smell anything unusual. A guy at my local sawmill asked if it were in a place where it got regular fertilizer. He thought some components of the fertilizer might be taken up and then leaching irregularly into the surrounding wood. I ran this by a friend of mine who is a botanist (but not a forester). He said he thought that unlikely "for reasons that are a bit long to explain". However, if we all keep striking out, I'll ask him for the explanation. Also good point about the sap wood, that seems bizarre to me. In answer to the question about "do all the chunks follow this pattern" - only in the lower part of the tree. You can see in an earlier photo that the limbs don't show it. Good suggestion to show close up. Here it is. I can go closer if someone would like


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## SycSlim (Oct 1, 2018)

Lazyman - I agree. The fact that it is not in the sap wood is a real mystery to me. On the other hand, for the experts that is surely an important diagnostic characteristic.
Hoskieken: Spalting on the very inside of a freshly cut (freshly, as in immediately after x- cutting the log) with no obvious diseased areas nearby or anywhere on the log
outside or inside seems unlikely to me, but then I'm no expert.


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## lumbering_on (Jan 21, 2017)

I'd like to see how far it goes up the trunk. Fungus or mold was my first guess, but since this is a city tree, it could also be that it's something the tree grew around. It's not common, but it does happen.

https://steemit.com/trees/@emmamartinme/trees-grow-around-objects


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## JCamp (Nov 22, 2016)

Depending on where u live mayb it could b from a chemical that they treat the roads with or mayb some type of odd fertilizer or spray that's been put around it. Those r just guesses. Either way I'd grab it up and take it to a sawmill to hav it cut into boards. Would make a sexy looking fireplace mantle


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## SycSlim (Oct 1, 2018)

The location is in MD, close to Washington DC. For what it's worth, it was one of a line of red oaks planted about 50 years ago. I don't know why it was dying; it was the same size as many others along the same line and there was no obvious disease that I could see.

lumbering_on: It seems to be only in the trunk - from the ground to what would have been about 20 feet up.

Also, it only shows up when cross-cut, so I don't think a fireplace mantle is in the picture. I've cut three 3" thick cookies and have two 18" long "chunks", but can get more. I'll be asking for advice for what to do with these before long. I've already started coating the ones I have with Pentacryl to replace water and try to prevent cracking.


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## lumbering_on (Jan 21, 2017)

Fifty years is just a young oak.

I'm not a botanist, but just looking at the photo of the rings, and a bit of a quick search on the growth rate is consistent with this occurring between between the time the tree was 8-12 years old. I be tempted to call the university and see if they can take a look at it. It's interesting, but it's likely just something mundane that caused it.


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## Fresch (Feb 21, 2013)

I call that earthquake oak ! Very expensive.
My question is are you getting the wood?


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## SycSlim (Oct 1, 2018)

From the Poster:









The more people that are stumped by this, the more interesting it becomes. Here is another photo that may help - I did some staining to bring out certain features. Note also my hand for scale. The middle swath is untreated (except for sanding). On the left is a section coated with a clear acrylic spray. It allows the dark wavy lines to be stand out. Note at "A" the left side of the "dark wavy line" is just below the pore line. It then crosses it, and finally ends up above it. At "D," each arrow points to the same pore line just mentioned. At "B", you can see a "high amplitude blip" of the dark material. It starts at one pore line, crosses two more and ends at a fourth. C was stained and lightly sanded. This allows for the pore lines to be seen clearly while the dark wavy lines are almost invisible. As for making something out of it, I would say the clear acrylic (or polyurethane, etc.) would be the way to go for max beauty.

I've already started coating these with Pentacryl to replace water in order to try to prevent from cracking.


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## Ripper70 (Nov 30, 2015)

I hope you own a lathe.


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## SycSlim (Oct 1, 2018)

Responses to last 3 posts (I'm new to this forum. Is there a way to reply to a specific post other than how I'm doing it here?). To "lumbering_on": You mentioned that the pattern seems to be between 8-12 years old. First of all, I way overestimated the age. In counting carefully, it's only 25 years old, not 50. I've posted a new photo here of one of my last slices. You can see that the pattern occurs throughout the heart wood. To "Fresch": I assume you are joking about "earthquake oak". However that is a great name. Not only is it appropriate for how it looks, but we actually had significant (for us) quakes here (Wash D.C. area in 2011 and 2014). If I eventually sell some of it, that's what I'll call it. To Ripper70: I own a lathe but the "strange pattern" is only visible on a cross-cut section. I've never tried using my lathe with cross cut wood. I guess you could, but you would seen the pattern only on a bit of two sides if my thinking is right. Let me know if you have a specific idea. I'm certainly open too suggestions.


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## SycSlim (Oct 1, 2018)

Ripper70, I own a lathe but the "strange pattern" is only visible on a cross-cut section. I've never tried using my lathe with cross cut wood. I guess you could, but you would seen the pattern only on a bit of two sides if my thinking is right. Let me know if you have a specific idea. I'm certainly open too suggestions.


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## JayT (May 6, 2012)

> Responses to last 3 posts (I'm new to this forum. Is there a way to reply to a specific post other than how I'm doing it here?).
> - SycSlim


You mean like this? 

Hit the "Quote" that is in the bottom right of the post you wish to reply to. Kinda confusing for someone new to this forum because it doesn't really look like a link.


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## SycSlim (Oct 1, 2018)

Thanks. Lets see if it works.



> Responses to last 3 posts (I'm new to this forum. Is there a way to reply to a specific post other than how I'm doing it here?).
> - SycSlim
> 
> You mean like this?
> ...


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## Ripper70 (Nov 30, 2015)

> Ripper70, I own a lathe but the "strange pattern" is only visible on a cross-cut section. I ve never tried using my lathe with cross cut wood. I guess you could, but you would seen the pattern only on a bit of two sides if my thinking is right. Let me know if you have a specific idea. I m certainly open too suggestions.
> 
> - SycSlim


From the pics, unless I'm mistaken, it looks like you've got yourself some nice bowl blanks.


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## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

Bizarre….I've bought and milled easily a hundred thousand board feet of Red Oak over the years(all kiln dried though)I don't think I've never seen anything like that.
I sent a message to Danny(WDHLT15). He's a Forester….Hopefully he'll stop in. He might have an idea?


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## WDHLT15 (Aug 15, 2011)

Thanks Tony and Jay. It is a bacterial infection. It can occur in stressed oaks and red oaks that spend some amount of time where the root zone is saturated with water, like in a bottomland that floods or has standing water. It can be dramatically beautiful. Here is some laurel oak with a similar bacterial infection that I sawed a few years ago.


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## SycSlim (Oct 1, 2018)

Thanks Tony


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## SycSlim (Oct 1, 2018)

Thanks Tony


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

Dude knows his timber ^^.

Super cool lumber and nice save.


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## SycSlim (Oct 1, 2018)

Thanks WDHLT15, but this looks nothing like my wood. Your lumber is beautiful for sure, but they are longitudinal cuts. If I cut my log longitudinally, it looks just like normal red oak. The strange pattern shows up only when the log is cross-cut (see earlier photos). I don't doubt that it could be some bacterial infection (although the tree was on high ground with well drained soil), but what you are showing bears no resemblance to the photos I posted.

- WDHLT15
[/QUOTE]


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## WDHLT15 (Aug 15, 2011)

Yes, it does not have the same look longitudinally, but the wavy lines in your pics certainly look like a bacterial infection.


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## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

> The strange pattern shows up only when the log is cross-cut (see earlier photos).
> 
> - SycSlim


You mentioned this previously as well, but in the first photo you posted it looks(to me anyways)like the pattern does show in the face/edge grain. Not nearly as predominant, maybe in part because of the fine kerf lines, but it looks like it's there?
I can't understand how it would show so predominantly in the end grain, but not at all in the edge/face grain.

Thanks for jumping in Danny.


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## SycSlim (Oct 1, 2018)

You are right Tony_S and WDHLT15, now that I look more carefully, the pattern is identifiable on angles other than the cross-cut, although they aren't as noticeable. The reason for that is that the waviness doesn't show up so much. When I first examined the piece (see original photo) that has six sides, I dismissed the lines on the other faces because they just looked like the darker portions of a normal growth line. After your comment though, I re-examined and see that I can indeed follow the "strange wavy lines" from the face around to the other sides, i.e., they are in fact continuous. I believe this gives an important hint in that the "strange dark lines" do seem to be the part of the growth ring that is normally darker. "LiveScience" explains that this is the portion that forms near the end of the growing season when the new cells are smaller and have darker thicker walls. With these things in mind, I'll be making more cuts to examine which angle cuts result in the most "showy" faces. This may help with determining an explanation, but also to see which angles will result in the most attractive face for wood making projects. Thanks for making me look more closely and stay tuned. A bacterial infection seems like a likely explanation to me, but I'm still anxious to see if others have alternative ideas and/or to learn just how the bacteria do this. Since I now know from the posts that this phenomenon is indeed rare, I think I'll repost again. This time, I'll ask respondents to give their suggestions as to how best to use the lumber. This my first time on "Lumberjocks". What a great resource. Thanks to everyone for their replies and keep them coming.


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## Fresch (Feb 21, 2013)

It was a joke but I kinda liked the name and any nice odd looking wood should cost more, it's all about the grain pattern.


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## WDHLT15 (Aug 15, 2011)

Bacterial infection in oak is not rare, at least in the South. This article sheds a little light on bacterial infection in oak. It does not always discolor the wood.

https://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/pdf1987/ward87a.pdf


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## splintergroup (Jan 20, 2015)

Wipe some mineral spirits on your cuts, it'll real show you what things will look like with a finish applied.


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## SycSlim (Oct 1, 2018)

Thanks to WDHLT15 (and the lumberjocks forum), the mystery of my "strange wavy lines" in a recently cut red oak is almost certainly solved. The lines are likely the result of a bacteria. All those who work with oak, especially those who harvest their own trees in the eastern U.S. should be aware of this ever-increasing problem detailed in https://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/pdf1987/ward87a.pdf An infestation of this type does not decay the wood, but can cause problems upon drying and then milling. Here are two quotes from the (short) article: "Since 1979, the oak wetwood problem has drastically increased in the forests of the eastern United States." "This type of attack on the heartwood tissue results in lumber that is very likely to check, honeycomb, shell and even collapse when subjected to drying and machining stresses that are harmless to uninfected heartwood." I have taken 3/8" slices from all 7 sides of my sample (see original photo) and will allow them to air dry. These samples are an average of only about 4 sq. inches, which may not be large enough to determine for sure if there will be problems, but after they are dry, I will glue them onto a larger board and send them through my planer to look for the "checks" or other defects that are characteristic of such wood. I suspect that most of the reports of these defects are from wood that was kiln dried. I'm guessing that my air drying may be easier on the samples (please weigh in on this if you have an opinion). I will post the results of this trial after the few months it should take for thorough drying.


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## WDHLT15 (Aug 15, 2011)

This bacterial infected wood is also called wetwood because there are high moisture pockets in the wood. The checking and honeycombing occurs because the traditional kiln schedules for oak are too aggressive for this wetwood, and the too fast drying results in cell collapse and failure which results in excessive checking and honeycomb. Here is some that I dried too fast. This face grain piece shows the deep checks. This board when it came out of the kiln looked perfect. Once it was planed down, the checks started showing up, and the more it was planed, the worse it got, revealing that the board was ruined.


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## SycSlim (Oct 1, 2018)

Thanks WDHLT15, sounds like air drying is the way to go. It's the only practical method I have anyway since the closest kiln is a couple of hundred miles away, somewhere in the wilds of WV. By the way, I sent your comments and the Forest Service URL to my botonist friend. He's not convinced, saying he's never seen wetwood with a pattern anything like that and suggesting I look at the Google photos for "wetwood." I have to agree, none of the several hundred photos looks like what I have. I think a bacterial infection is still the best guess, but maybe it's an unusual strain of bacteria. There was a fair amount of variation in the wetwood photos. Anyway, I put the facts together and sent them along with photos to the Forest Service this morning. If they don't know what it is, they certainly ought to try to find out. It could be something new. I'll make a post once I hear back from them. Thanks for taking the time to tackle this issue; it could be important to others as well as me. I just got a ripping chain for my saw. I'll be slicing a few boards this morning with my Alaskan saw mill, to get a better idea of what the longitudinal cuts look like. Fortunately, the road crew has been slow to pick this stuff up.


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## SycSlim (Oct 1, 2018)

> This bacterial infected wood is also called wetwood because there are high moisture pockets in the wood. The checking and honeycombing occurs because the traditional kiln schedules for oak are too aggressive for this wetwood, and the too fast drying results in cell collapse and failure which results in excessive checking and honeycomb. Here is some that I dried too fast. This face grain piece shows the deep checks. This board when it came out of the kiln looked perfect. Once it was planed down, the checks started showing up, and the more it was planed, the worse it got, revealing that the board was ruined.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





> Thanks WDHLT15, sounds like air drying is the way to go. It s the only practical method I have anyway since the closest kiln is a couple of hundred miles away, somewhere in the wilds of WV. By the way, I sent your comments and the Forest Service URL to my botonist friend. He s not convinced, saying he s never seen wetwood with a pattern anything like that and suggesting I look at the Google photos for "wetwood." I have to agree, none of the several hundred photos looks like what I have. I think a bacterial infection is still the best guess, but maybe it s an unusual strain of bacteria. There was a fair amount of variation in the wetwood photos. Anyway, I put the facts together and sent them along with photos to the Forest Service this morning. If they don t know what it is, they certainly ought to try to find out. It could be something new. I ll make a post once I hear back from them. Thanks for taking the time to tackle this issue; it could be important to others as well as me. I just got a ripping chain for my saw. I ll be slicing a few boards this morning with my Alaskan saw mill, to get a better idea of what the longitudinal cuts look like. Fortunately, the road crew has been slow to pick this stuff up.
> 
> - SycSlim


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## EPJartisan (Nov 4, 2009)

Wow.. great article.. thank you WDHLT15.


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## Brawler (Nov 12, 2018)

I was thinking maybe weed killer, or if you live in the rust belt road salt.


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## SycSlim (Oct 1, 2018)

Poster: Could be Brawler. Ive had about 20 people weigh in on this. Most have been wood workers, but two botanists and several saw mill operators. They've all commented that they had never seen anything quite like it although one felt strongly that it was a type of bacterial infection. I tend to agree with that, but recently, I took it to the open house of a nearby woodworker. He looked at it and said "that's just the way red oak grows"! Well not the red oak I've seen, but he lives close to where I found it, so maybe it is more common around that particular area. I sent the photos to the US Forest Service, but they've never responded. I'm still open to suggestions. In the mean time, I've got 6, 2" thick, 22" wide cookies "pentacryled" and drying, so in a couple of years, I hope to have some nice furniture to display.


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## BillWhite (Jul 23, 2007)

Well…………"close to Washington"?
That's the reason. It is a BS infection. Nuff said.
My humor for the day.


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## SycSlim (Oct 1, 2018)

Good one Bill!


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