# Saw sharpening, re-toothing, setting, etc. -- found!



## handyrandyrc (Feb 3, 2012)

Anyone use www.logsandlumbersawmill.com ? I have had a good experience with them so far. I purchased a backsaw from an antique shop that I wanted to dedicate as a tenon saw. It has a fairly broad sawplate. It was filed crosscut 13tpi, so I wanted it switched to 10tpi rip.

The guy at the shop, Jim, recommended maybe I do a half rip since I'm a newbie to the world of woodworking, as it might make it easier for me to control. He said as I file it, I can go more towards full rip as I get better. His prices were also VERY reasonable. If you've not given them a try, you might check them out. They are in York, NE.

I am expecting to receive the saw next week, so I'll update the post with a recommendation on their services.

Randy


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## handyrandyrc (Feb 3, 2012)

Just wanted to follow up.

I sent the saw on the 28th of Jan and received it back the 23rd of Feb. ALMOST a month, but not quite. I had to send e-mail quite a few times to get updates. There were many excuses, too cold, equipment not working, funeral to attend, etc. It came back with almost an inch in depth removed from the sawplate! I bought this saw because it still had a deep sawplate-almost 4"-and I wanted to cut deep tenons with it. I don't know if I can even cut 3" now without bottoming out on the back.

He said he wasn't happy with the sharpening job-he called it "calves and cows". But sent it back and said I could try it out and see if it would work for me. He also said I could send it to be sharpened again and he'd work it out to be better next time. It does indeed seem to have large gullets and small gullets alternating for some of the length. I'll have to post some before and after pictures.

Because he felt bad, he threw in another saw as a gift. It's a nice gesture for having my saw for so long and he said it was filed the way (10tpi rip) he wanted my saw to be. I don't like to look a gift horse in the mouth, but the toothline is bent pretty bad in a couple spots, and the saw wants to therefore bind in the cut. Makes it no good for me.

My saw, with a perfectly straight toothline, cuts worse than before. And now it's missing almost an inch of depth. I'm ready to give up on it now and look for another.


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## interpim (Dec 6, 2008)

The fact that he sent you a new saw, says to me that he knew he screwed up your saw. I'm not sure what kind of arrangement you had with him, but I would be pretty livid about the situation.

The least I would do is never do business with him again. Depending on the monetary involvement you had, I would probably go so far as demanding a new saw similar to the one you initially sent in.

Removing an entire inch from a saw plate is overkill. It sounds to me like he ground it, didn't like the outcome, so re-did the job again poorly. For the most part, he sounds like an amateur.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

I used to sharpen saws and what happened to you is classic inexperienced saw sharpener. to change the tooth pitch , he first had to remove the 13 pitch and punch a new 10 pitch. Because this was an antique saw, I would guess the steel is brittle. If that is the case, the process of setting the teeth, would cause some of the teeth to break off. That would then result in re-cutting new teeth and setting. Each time it is repeated, the plate gets narrower. If you lost over an inch in width, I think he must have recut/reset the blade 4 times or more. 
If I were doing that saw, the first time around and teeth broke off, I would declare the saw no longer usable and return it to the owner. When saw blades loose their temper, they can no longer be sharpened. The blades can be retempered, but that is usually beyond the skill of the sharpener.


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## handyrandyrc (Feb 3, 2012)

To be forthcoming, he offered a "first sharpening free" to me, which he said was because I was a first time customer. Because I sounded like such a newb, I also assumed he was trying to help me out getting started.

$20 on the saw at the antique shop.
$18 on shipping back and forth.
$10 cash "tip" I threw in the box because he wanted to do it for free.
He did have to spend extra money on the return shipping because he gave me the extra saw. I guess my $10 tip can count for covering that.

So I'll be eating a $50 mistake. I just won't send anything there again, but I wanted to let others know about it as well. I'm not going to seek anything else from him.


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## BillWhite (Jul 23, 2007)

Bummer!! Next time try Matt Ciani http://thesawblog.com
I'm gonna send him my Butcher tenon saw. Guy does good work.
Bill


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

The fact that he sent you a new saw, says to me that he knew he screwed up your saw. He didn't get a new saw, but an old one that was kicking around.


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## interpim (Dec 6, 2008)

I meant new, as in he didn't own it prior to this transaction


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## Brit (Aug 14, 2010)

Please post some pictures of both saws. See if you can take a close up of the cows and calves and for the junker saw he threw in, take a photo looking from one end along the toothline so we can see how bad the wave is. Sometimes a wave can easily be fixed and you can do that yourself. I can tell you how, but I need to see a photo first to see what it looks like. I can't believe he wasted an inch. He obviously doesn't know what he's doing. 1/4" would be excessive IMO, even with filing all the teeth off and cutting new ones.


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## JoeMcGlynn (Dec 16, 2011)

That stinks.

You can replace the saw plate and get the depth back if you want. Are the handle and back decent?

Do post some pics…


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## handyrandyrc (Feb 3, 2012)

Before.










After.










Cows / calves.

You can see how deep the sawplate was before-I could cut those deep tenon cheeks. Now it's useless for that, and doesn't cut well to boot. Same board with cut tenons for scale in both pictures.


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## BrandonW (Apr 27, 2010)

They wrecked that saw! You can see the saw teeth in the shadow pretty well. Luckily there's still enough saw plate left that it's still usable, but unfortunately not for what you had intended it for.


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## Brit (Aug 14, 2010)

Well the guy who filed that was either blindfolded or simply doesn't know the first thing about filing saws. My advice would be to put it down to experience and use that saw to learn to file the teeth yourself. It isn't difficult really and it's a great skill to have. If you want the saw to be 10TPI rip, you will need a 6" Extra Slim Taper file. The best instructions for filing saws can be found at vintagesaws.com and is called 'Saw Filing - A Beginner's Primer'. Read and re-read it until it makes sense, clamp your saw between two bits of wood and have at it. You'll be glad you did. One thing though, You'll need to file off the existing teeth *completely* and file in new teeth before you sharpen it.

Regarding the junker saw, depending on how bad the wave is, you might be able to straighten it using either this method or this method. In both cases, you'll need to scroll down to see the appropriate part of the blog post. Sometimes you need to remove the back completely. If the saw is badly kinked, it probably isn't worth doing.


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## JoeMcGlynn (Dec 16, 2011)

Whoever sharpened that was clueless. Thanks god it wasn't a rare or expensive saw!


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

There may some other things going on that you don't see. If I remember correctly, the older blades may not have hardened high carbon steel throughout. This is also why the teeth continued to break off. Once he was past the hardened steel, he could set the teeth. Chances are the the teeth will dull quickly unless the blade is re hardened and tempered - not easy to do without distorting the balde.

I have straightened blades by refiling them. Depends upon whether the blade is creased.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

You'll need to file off the existing teeth completely and file in new teeth before you sharpen it.
Brit, You don't use a file to remove the teeth and file new teeth. You will never get them all the same. For this job, you need a machine that punches new teeth while removing the old. This will usually remove 3/16" from the blade width. There are machines that make short work of setting the teeth, although it can be done with a hand held setting tool. I used to be in the saw sharpening business and still have all the machines, but I am now retired and do only blades for my own use.


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## Brit (Aug 14, 2010)

MrRon - I agree that using a Foley or similar machine to recut teeth is ideal, but most hobbyists are not going to have one or buy one just to do a few saws. It is possible to file new teeth and you can get them pretty much the same if you're careful. You will get through 2 or 3 files doing it, but they are a lot cheaper than buying a Foley.  It will also take a while to file new teeth, but most hobbyists will only need to do it once. It can be done though and lots of people have done it.


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

I have done this. Also need layout dye and a scribe for the tooth distance. If you are looking at toothing a saw that starts out at 16 or so tpi and transitions to 14, doing this by hand is one way to do this.


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## handyrandyrc (Feb 3, 2012)

Well, I did receive an e-mail from the gentleman to ask how it worked out for me. I had this to say:

I was surprised at how much sawplate you ended up having to remove. How many times did you have to re-cut everything? Were you losing/breaking teeth setting it and having to re-do? There's almost a full inch of sawplate gone. What I liked about the saw before was that the plate was still quite deep. I can't cut the deep tenons I had hoped before bottoming out.

I've done test cuts, and yeah it sort of works for other things. The other saw was a really nice gesture, thank you also for that. Maybe it's because I'm a newb, but it really wants to bind in the cut. Sawplate seems pretty wavy as well on that guy. Thanks again, Jim. I do appreciate what you did, but I probably won't be going down this road again. I now have 50 dollars into this and have a couple of saws that 'sort of' work for my needs.

My eastern saw is really working out well for me in the meantime. Who knows, maybe I'll make the jump to pull saws instead. It cuts fast, with a thinner kerf, and the more I use it, the more I like it.

I have not heard back in a day since I sent that. Sent him a link to the thread as well.


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## sikrap (Mar 15, 2009)

The guy clearly didn't know what he was doing and was hoping you knew even less than him. I made a similar mistake with a local guy that was supposed to have been sharpening saws for years. Next time send it to Matt Cianci in Rhode Island. Matt can be reached at the blog address posted above. Not only is he very, very good at sharpening saws, he's a really nice guy. If you want to learn how to sharpen them yourself, I recommend the dvd by Ron Herman. Very good and very easy to understand.


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