# Question for the Electricians...



## JasonIndy (Dec 29, 2008)

I've noticed when my jointer or planer is plugged in, I get a little bit of a tickle any time I touch the metal on either tool. I'm using a short extension cord with a ground to get from one end of my garage to the other. My planer sits on the ground until I can build a stand, but my jointer has rubber feet which I thought would serve as an insulator. I'm running it out of a conventional outlet (I'm sure if it was wired for 220 it would be more than a tickle.) I'm more worried about a fire than getting shocked or anything because I always unplug my tools when they're not being directly used. What can I do to stop this and how worried should I be?

My old freezer in the basement used to do this every time I grabbed the handle too, if that helps


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## bayspt (Apr 4, 2008)

Don't touch it and you won't get the tickle. lol Sounds to me like you have voltage leaking to ground at some piont in your system. Could be faulty wiring or a faulty piece of equipment on the circuit. Just my .02 sure you will get more, maybe enough to make a dollar


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

try licking it ?

seriously, I wouldnt use it until you have it figured out


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## skywalker01 (May 19, 2009)

You need to have an electrician look at your circuits. Or if you feel confident enough. I'd check the breaker box first, Seems like it might be from there. Be careful, you HAVE to already know what you're doing.


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## JasonIndy (Dec 29, 2008)

That's the odd thing, it's both my Ridgid planer and Ridgid jointer, which were brand new out of the box as of two months ago. It just seems weird they would both have electrical issues, you know? I wasn't sure if it could be a setup problem, or maybe I'm just really unlucky. I'll have somebody who knows more than me take a look at it. Thanks.


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## wichle (May 2, 2010)

Your breaker box needs to be grounded to a ground rod, drivin in the grount outside. If not available, then to a copper cold water pipe that runs directly to the inbound main. These checks at nthe breaker box in the house. Sounds like the neutral, probably white) wire is "above ground at the box.


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## SnowyRiver (Nov 14, 2008)

This doesnt sound like its your tools. I bet, like others have said, that you have a floating or leaky ground. Also, have you tried a different extension cord?


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

You most likely have a stray voltage in your ground system. It needs to be found and corrected.

BTW, Most peole who think they are bit on 220 are only getting 110 to ground.


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## davidpettinger (Aug 21, 2009)

Try a new extension cord. The old one may have a compromised ground in it. Also, check the ground at the outlet to make sure you have one.


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## Nomad62 (Apr 20, 2010)

Definately a bad ground;the power goes in and needs to get out just as efficiently. A dirty or loose ground won't allow the voltage to pass cleanly, causing you a minor shock. GFCI outlets "read" that leakage and cut the circuit. If you are just using a light bulb, it usually doesn't get you; higher amp useage, such as your planer, will cause a voltage "back-up" and let you have it. This is usually an annoyance, but then again how many chances do you want to take before getting a real shock? By all means, get it looked at before you use it further, and make sure the "safety ground" or green wire ground is just as good as the white. Electricians are expensive, but safety should be deemed priceless.


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## doyoulikegumwood (Jun 21, 2007)

one thing i have found and really don't like, is allot of times folks will put all the neutrals and the grounds onto the same termination block in the panel.

I'm not sure if this is standard practice or not i tend to put them on to separate blocks. i could be totally wrong


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## Knothead62 (Apr 17, 2010)

Even if the tools are on rubber or synthetic pads, you are acting as the ground and carrying the current. Have it checked out before it can get worse.
DYLGW has an idea. Louisiana allowed it in a new house we built in 1983. Not really a good idea. That's not the way I was taught to wire a house or electric ranges.


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## JasonIndy (Dec 29, 2008)

Thanks for all the replies, looking at the outlet it looks as if some kind of after-market work was done. It's an older house and I've always had electrical problems to various degrees. I didn't feel any current at all through either of them today but it sounds serious enough that it should get looked at. My father-in-law does a little contracting work and his father was an electrician so I'm going to have him take a look at it this weekend (the price is always right.)

I'll also try a different extension cord and see if that helps.

Knothead, thanks, I got a C in physics and electrical work has always dumbfounded me.

Topamax, the in-law used to be a 'volunteer apprentice' for his father before they had child labor laws. He said you can definitely tell the difference when it comes to 110 and 220. He was the canary.


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

Rubber is an insulator and does not make a ground at all unless it's got a piece of metal sticking through it to complete the circuit. You've obviously got a bad ground, if the fridge has been doing it, too. Get that fixed ASAP! The only thing a bad ground does is get worse.

I USED to work on 110 without turning the breaker off, back when I was young and immortal. I crossed up 220 ONCE. That really smarts, and I got MY smarts and now I turn off the power (lock-out and tag-out) whenever I work on electrical things.

The different extension cord is a waste of time if the fridge has been doing it. Play safe! Especially if you have children in your workshop. Does this problem only exist in the garage? Maybe you haven't noticed it in the house due to most appliances having plastic covers. This problem has potentially lethal outcomes for people. Please, get it fixed right away!


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## PASs (Dec 1, 2009)

Sounds like the ground isn't.
New code allows/requires the neutral (white) wire and the ground (bare) wire to tie in to the breaker box, just not to the same block.
For a few bucks you can go to the HD or Lowes and get an outlet tester plug. Stick it in the receptacle (or the end of the extension cord) and the lights will tell you if there is an obvious problem (hot/neutral reversed, no ground, etc…)


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Anything over 120 to ground will definitely get your attention! ) Good thing you can't get 220 to ground in a house!! Eurpeans must be more careful after they get their first one than we are.


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## JasonIndy (Dec 29, 2008)

The garage, and with those two tools, is the only place I've noticed it more than once. The freezer in the basement did it for a while back when we were getting a lot of flooding, but at that point I was just happy I didn't get fried and I chalked it up to the water. Got that taken care of.

I've never noticed it anywhere else, though.


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## uffitze (Apr 23, 2010)

Sounds to me like your service isn't properly grounded. A metal water pipe with at least 10 feet buried in direct contact with earth is an acceptable grounding electrode, but with a new service, it must be supplemented by another grounding electrode. My state has amended the NEC to require 8 foot ground rods seperated by at least 6 feet unless you hire an independant company to show that one ground rod has a resistance of 25 ohms or less. Needless to say, we always drive 2 ground rods.

And, you only need to seperate the ground and neutral wires when you are working out of a sub panel. (At the service the ground bar and neutral bar are bonded together.)


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## heavyelectrician (May 9, 2010)

You have had some good replies here. I am an electrician currently working in Iraq to fix the insane wiring. We see alot of this same stuff. First, is it the same receptacle or just the same circuit? You do have voltage leaking to ground(green wire). But to me it sounds more like a neutral problem. Maybe the nuetral and ground is crossed some place. If your house is not older than 20 or so years you don't need more ground rods. The only thing the ground rod is for is to reference neutral to earth and lightning protection. Electricity wants to find it's way back to it's source not the earth. It's a common misconception. Check the circuit, hot to nuetral, then hot to ground and then neutral to ground. The first readings should be between 115 and 120 depending on your transformer outside. If you get voltage on the neutral to ground test( pretty much anything over 2 volts) start to track it back. I know 2 volts don't sound like much but when you put 10 or more amps of load on it then it tends to grow larger teeth for more bite. You can also do a continuity test. It is more involved because you need to go into the panel and take the the neutral and ground from that same cable loose. I know this is a long and drawn out explanation, but it could be longer. It's a good chance it is not in your panel especially if it is your main because it is the only one that should be bonded. If all this sounds too much don't hesitate to call a competent electrician. Yes we charge money because we need to make a living to, but the $150 for the problem being fixed with a warrenty should be worth it. Oh one more thing the ground wire should not have voltage on it. It is really only a safety not the primary return path.


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## birdguy (Jun 10, 2010)

As me being a electrican it coud be a couple of things best thing to do is try a nouther circut if you still have the problem consult a electrican


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## robertp (Jun 6, 2010)

The reason it happens in your garage and basement is because concrete is a pretty good conductor. In effect you are a better ground then the ground wire which is connected to your tools chassis. The neutral and ground should be common back at the panel unless its a floating neutral. I would not be at all surprised if your receptacles are 3 prong but your wiring is only two conductor no ground. Thats old house wiring out here. Also on newer houses I have seen a ground rod driven in 2 feet and then cut off. What ever the cause your a better path than your house wiring. One thing you can do is put some plywood down in front of your tool, that would help. But really get it fixed as I know of 2 deaths from electrocution from operating a power drill. One in a crawlspace, one in a driveway.

Hey heavy electrician if you get this can you explain about the electricity going back to its source and all, I don't understand. Does that mean that the current would rather go out the neutral to the powerline than to earth? Does that mean that normally if there is any discrepancy in voltage between hot and earth and hot and neutral it should be higher between hot and neutral unless there is a problem? (I mean minivolts). Anyway I'm curious if you have time to explain it.


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## CampD (Nov 8, 2008)

robertp:
Electricity will travel thru the least path of resistance. Our bodies being made-up of 80% water means we are a very good conductor to ground! The gound wire is in place to carry any stary voltage back to the source (panel and to the grounding wire)
jasonindy:
If you were standing in a pool of water while turning on the planer you will get more then a "tickle".
You,ve most likely got crossed wires in that circuit.
As PASs says get yourself a plug-in circuit tester before you turn on any device on that circuit, test every plug on that circuit. Could be simple as a crossed or loose wire in the plug or something worse and more diffecult to fix like a nail thru the wire or nic or cut.
MHO


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## skywalker01 (May 19, 2009)

Second that campD,

Get a plug tester and plug it into each outlet. You can get the kind that will tell you exactly what the problem is. If you get no problem readings you will know it is in the tools wiring.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I'm not sure I trust those plug in testers even though inspectors use them. I got called the other day by a fellow who had a tester show him a combination of lights that was not an option on its list of problems and an OK circuit. He had an open neutral on a circuit that split off a 14-3 cable for 2 120 volt circuits.


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## heavyelectrician (May 9, 2010)

robertp,
I will try to explain this in the short version. A good example of this is when you have objectionable current (currenton the ground wire). We have found here where we would have 4 amps on the ground wire that runs with the conductors back to source and the grounding electrode conductor ( the wire that connects the ground bar to the ground rod) would have zero amps and zero volts. But when you disconnect the grounding conductor ( the ground that goes with the conductors back to source) you have voltage and alot of times here the voltage will go up and down depending on the equipment cycling. But the grounding electrode will still have no amps or volts. Now you do have other factors that play a part like the resistance of the ground rod to earth and the resistance of the wire and connections. And if all goes to plan the connections and wire has a lower resistance and the circuit runs correctly. Just want you to know i put the explanations of the terms in so that others who read this who are not electrically inclined will know what we are saying. I hope this helps, hit me up if you need more. I'm happy to help. Oh and if anyone is wondering in this particular situation the ground rod was at about 2ohms. We found that a heating element was bad and going to ground.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*JasonIndy* Are you still out there? Did the inlaws come up with anything?


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## JasonIndy (Dec 29, 2008)

Sure am.

My father-in-law came down and the first thing he did was check the ground in the backyard. He said it looked fine so it was probably some of the wiring in the attic.

We've gotten a lot of rain here lately so we're dealing with basement flooding. I haven't had a problem with it in a while but I'm going to get a plug tester tomorrow, as well as look at all the outlets, junction boxes, etc. For whatever reason, even in physics class in high school I had trouble wrapping my head around electricity. If I don't see a blatantly obvious mistake I think I'll probably just end up calling an electrician. The people that owned my house before I bought it tinkered with the wiring in a major way, so I really don't want to make it any worse by not knowing what I'm doing.

Thank you all for the help, though, much obliged.


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## Knothead62 (Apr 17, 2010)

Jason, go to the library or a book store and get a book on electrical wiring. Also, Lowe's has a book display, you can find one there. There is an explanation somewhere.
Caution: In checking the wiring, make sure that wiring colors are consistent. Black and red- hot; white- common; green- ground. The black and red are used together for 220/240 circuits (black/red/white/green).

I worked in appliances at Lowe's for a few months. People were always scared of gas appliances. I would ask these questions: Do you know what natural or propane gas smells like? They would say yes. Then: What does electricity smell like?

I worked in appliance manufacturing for a while. I heard of a story of a woman who had an electric cooktop installed. She turned it on and placed a metal pan on it. It threw her across the kitchen and broke her bra strap! (Really!) When it was checked, the electrician had neglected to hook the ground wire.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Jason, I have seen that a lot on service calls. I have begun to wonder if there is a house in America that a DYI hasn't messed with the electrical system? Too many people read a little bit and think they are electricians. The problem is too many only know enough to be dangerous. I saw one of these situations on a generator installation last weekend. It lights the house, runs appliances and charges the batteries is about all I will say.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

_"one thing i have found and really don't like, is allot of times folks will put all the neutrals and the grounds onto the same termination block in the panel."_

I had a RS 13.2c DC converter and the line and neutral wires had been switched from the mfgr. It still "worked" but presented a shock hazard until I properly wired black to line and white to neutral. RS ended up issuing a recall/advisory in order to correct that particular mistake. You might want to check the wiring for such a mistake. Just a thought…


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## JasonIndy (Dec 29, 2008)

I picked up a plug tester, it registered that the neutral and the hot wire had been reversed on the circuit. I think that's within my skillset so I'll probably just fix it myself.

Another thing I've noticed from the remodeling we did on our house is that the old school black/hot white/neutral color coordination doesn't apply as much anymore. Most of the lights we bought had black and white striped wires, so when we ran them all together on the same circuit it was difficult to keep track of everything.


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