# Make sense of this please



## kolwdwrkr (Jul 27, 2008)

"Help might be on the way. The Obama administration announced a plan in March to provide $75 billion in incentive payments for the mortgage industry to modify loans to help up to 9 million borrowers avoid foreclosure. But the extent of the relief remains unclear, with questions lingering about how much the lending industry will cooperate in modifying loans."

This does not make sense to me at all. So the government is to give the banks 75 billion dollars as an "incentive" to get them to "modify" loans that "up to" 9 million borrowers have. SO doesn't this mean that not only does the banks get 75 billion dollars but they also get a majority of the original loan from the borrower?

This is out right bull********************. Why the hell would they do this? It makes no sense at all. You could give 1 million dollars to 9 million people and those 9 million people wouldn't owe ******************** anymore. The bank would get ALL of the money owed for the house and the people would be out of debt. If this isn't FUBAR I don't know what is. Maybe I just don't know what the hell is going on anymore. Seems to me that we should just throw around billions of dollars to freakin nothing and call it a day. Oh wait, we do.


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## LocalMac (Jan 28, 2009)

If you gave 9 million people 1 million dollars I could think of a few things that would happen.

Hummer would become the number one vehicle in America. 
People would pay off their houses and then buy a bigger one that they can't afford. 
Divorce rate would go up.
Small businesses would pop up everywhere and then fail because people think money fixes everything.
Wall Street businesses men, investors, and banks would get rich after digging their greedy fingers into the pockets of these 9 million and leave them with nothing.


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## kolwdwrkr (Jul 27, 2008)

All good points. But, the money is being wasted anyway and isn't reaching the American people. So what is really better? Besides they could regulate it. Maybe they should spend 75 billion dollars fixing small business's and saving jobs so people could pay for the damn mortgage. Take my business for example. Because of the recession and the short amount of time I was in business it failed. I couldn't afford the marketing and such to get my name out, and after only 4 years in business nobody knew who I was. So 3 people lost their jobs and I lost everything. And I mean EVERYTHING. If there was an incentive for business's like mine where you could get the money easily I'd be in good standing. 
SO there ya go, there's tons of things they should do with the money that would actually HELP the American public. NOT the banks. It's pretty damn low when you have to bribe the freakin bank to help the very Citizens that keep it in business.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

You got it pretty well figured out. The banks get the money from the gov't (us taxpayers) and they get it from the the mortgagees (US taxpayers) too. One of them used the bail out money to buy a Japanese Company (don't remember which one) With the amount of bail out money and stimlus money they are passing out to the criminals who run Wall Street, they could just give us all a years wages to spend and the recesson would be over.

Too bad the greedy bastards have been screwing us for the last 30 years. It's going to take a while for this to "correct" in my opinion. During the last administration they would talk about 250,000 jobs being created every 6 months or year. They never mentioned we need 150,000 +/- to keep up with population growth. If they counted the people whose unemployment has run out and all those who are under empolyed who want to work at their profession or trade, plus the over 50 gang that are regularly discriminated against, I think the un- and underempolyment rate is at least 20%.


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## kolwdwrkr (Jul 27, 2008)

Or, why couldn't the government just look at the 9 million peoples bills (The IRS already knows what you make, what you spend, what you owe, etc) Pay off all their bills and mortgage to a $0 balance and call it a day. In other words if Joe owes 600k on everything that is what he gets. He is debt free. But, the government would then monitor his future financial status to ensure he isn't buying said hummer. Basically regulate his spending. You are already regulated on how you spend by the debt you owe. But by doing this there wouldn't and couldn't be any substantial debt. So there wouldn't be bankruptcies, etc. 
Am I wrong?
BTW if you say people don't want to be regulated on how they spend, I'm sorry but you already are in one way or another, and punished with taxes, debt, etc.


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## LocalMac (Jan 28, 2009)

I'm confused by how people get so behind on taxes. I see commercials every day about people who owe hundreds of thousands of dollars in taxes and companies get them off by paying only a fraction. I'd like to know how these people get so far behind and how they get out of it. I understand struggling families or hospital bills keeping people behind but when you get to owing the government over a hundred grand I have a hard time feeling sorry for them. They just sound like criminals. The government wants their back taxes and if they aren't paying it off are the rest of us paying for their debt? Just curious.


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## kolwdwrkr (Jul 27, 2008)

The back taxes aren't really in question here. I'm talking about mortgages and other bills. It seems as though the average family pays their taxes every year on time every time. However these are the people losing their home. So the money they paid in taxes over all the previous years isn't going to help them at all? I'm behind on taxes myself. But it's because I lost everything as I stated and don't have work. So the taxes that I owe I can't pay. I can't pay anything without a job. 
You really want to discuss being criminal with not paying taxes. What about the millions of illegals working here that don't pay them? They go to our hospitals and get free care, take jobs citizens should have, etc. They seem to take and take and never give back. That's criminal to me. 
People have to make decisions when they get into a jam. When money is low and you have to choose between food and electric as opposed to taxes, are you going to choose taxes and live in the dark with no food. Screw that. 
The tax money so many people pay doesn't come back to the American citizens. It goes to war, to help foreign countries feed their people and rebuild their countries, it goes to auto makers who outsource to oversea companies, etc. So basically the money leaves the states. God forbid we ask for some of it back without some sort of repercussion. This country has flushed itself. It's time to start taking it back and make some changes.


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## dan_fash (Jan 7, 2009)

well, I can at least respond onthe tax thing. One incident snow balls into huge problems. A friend of mine had a great year in the 90's. His taxes for the year were about $50,000, but he had only budgeted for taxes about $30K. his good year bumped him into a different tax bracket. So, $20K he didn't have, went on an installment plan with the IRS, where he paid about $2000 a month, which should have paid him off in about a year and a half, but the IRS continued to charge late payments on late payments at a HUGE interest rate, and at the end of 1 year, having paid $12000 on a $20000 debt, he still owed almost $20000 dollars. of course this added into his next years Taxes owed, and made the problem worse. After years of trying to work out of this, he had paid almost $60 K on a $20 K debt. I won't excuse his not having the money in the first place, as he should have been better prepared, but tryin to pay the IRS is much worse than trying to pay off a credit card with a high interest rate.


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## kolwdwrkr (Jul 27, 2008)

Dan_fash thank you for proving that the government %$#^s us ever chance they get. That's insane, and the road I'm on. Now I'm really depressed. LOL.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

kolwdwkr, Debt is how the economy was financed since the bust the union campaign starter with the Air Traffic Controllers Union in the early 80's. Wages went stagnant in relation to inflation, credit was eased and banks were finally relieved of their required reserves. I believe they went down to about 10% in the early part of the decade. That's why we have teh crisis, nobody has any cash reserves. You will notice the old south slave states is where all the foriegn factories locate away from the "good uniion jobs" with benefits as Sarah Palin put it during the campaign explaining how she and her husband finally got health care. Big blunder for a R candidate ;-)) The old south is where Wally World came from with their substandard wages, not benefits, thousands of illegal immigrant workers and coaching employees to get gov't provided health care.

LocalMac, Business people get behind on taxes when they have a cash flow problem. I worked for a company who didn't pay in any withholding of taxes, medicare or SS for about 100 employees. The feds finally tried to seize their bank accounts, but the bank called their line of credit due and payable the day before. On Friday, about a hundred electricians paychecks bounced. We finally got paid as wages have first claim on the assets, but they went under. I don't know how much they owed in taxes.

Another guy I knew of was a big spendeer who was using some kind of tax shelter. It took the courts about 5 years to declare the shelter illegal. Add in interest and penalties on the back taxes and he owed about 1 million. Those of us who are honest and pay our taxes are probably the stupid ones, aren't we?? )


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## LocalMac (Jan 28, 2009)

I see your point. I've always believed that America needs to focus on our own problems. I'm not saying we should practice isolationism but we're not going to create peace in the Middle East, we're not going to cure all the diseases in Africa, but maybe we can realistically solve social issues here at home. Charity is always the right thing to do when possible but it angers me to see us trying to feed the world while children in America are homeless and starving. As far as illegal aliens go, you can't place all the blame on them. The real criminals are the business owners that hire them. They are the ones who are giving Americans' jobs away and paying out just enough for them to get by. If I had a choice between being starving and jobless or illegal but able to take care of my family I'd choose the second option too. Once we start going after the business owners we can start turning this problem around.


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## LocalMac (Jan 28, 2009)

haha. Good call, Top. We are suckers. I forgot to pay my state taxes my first year of working when I was a kid. I never bothered when i realized it because the state owed me like $20. So now I figure some time down the road I'm going to ask the state for my money along with late fees and interest. I consider it my personal social security account. : )


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## kolwdwrkr (Jul 27, 2008)

I'll come back to this in the morning and hopefully the conversation will still be good without problems and controversy. I didn't start this topic for a fight, so for anyone that hasn't commented it's going good so far with good solid thought out views. Thanks LocalMac, Dan_Fash and Topamaxsurvivor for the civil responses thus far. I'm sure I will wake up with some stuff to say, and I sure hate to look to see a bunch of hogwash and hatetred. So goodnight.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I had that same situation when I started in the mid 80's. In DEcember, my "accountant" told me I would owe 2-3000 on April 15th. I had estimated my taxable income within $2000. On April 13th, he called me and said I would owe $12,000 for the previous year and to make a big deposit for the curent year. I knew the tax on $2000 wasn't $12,000!

I immediately called the accountant who sold him the business and told him what had happend to me. told him he'd better get what he could if he hadn't gotten cash when he sold becuase that business because it was going to be totally worthless very shortly with that clown running it.

I was very fortunate I had the cash to pay and had no choice but to send a check to IRS on the 15th. I filed for an extension to give me time to find a real accountant. On the 14th, I did everything I legally could to maximize my perious years deductions before the filing. Needless to say, I was in a bit of a bind making payroll that summer!! :-((


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

What I've learned in 60 years that I advise my kids and anyone who is going into business; you need to know enough about accounting and taxes to know if you are being lied to by an incompetent accountant, you need to know enough about regulations to know if you are being lied to by an incompetent gov't worker or some hot shot trying to build his career on your back, and you need to know enough about investing and banking to know if you are being lied to by an incompetent or a Wall Street leach. When in the market place , be aware and maintain a vigil because if you are in compliance with every law and regulation that affects your business, you cannot possibly compete with those who don't know or don't care. Once you have educated yourself, taken your licking in the school of hard knocks, done business with ony those you can trust (that really narrows your market share) to pay, if you are lucky enough to find a niche you can excell in, you may be better off than just having a "real job." )


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## Catspaw (Dec 15, 2007)

My little rant here would be to add that the financial aid for mortgages is supposed to be for some one who gets behind in their payments, maybe some extra expenses from medical, snowball, etc. and can prove their income, re-negotiate with the bank, and get back on track.

Well, the fact is, most people who are facing foreclosure are facing it because they lost their jobs. Now….how can you prove your income if you don't have a job. Basically the whole thing couldn't work from the very beginning. As far as I'm concerned it has all been a scam.

Kinda like unemployment insurance….nobody is hiring, so why do I have to waste my time going on several interviews every week to prove I'm looking for a job. WHAT jobs? I'll get one as soon as something comes along. Until then I can use the time for working on my house or my farming…or even doing volunteer work like Habitat while watching out for paid work. I'm not a parasite, I'll get work as soon as I can. Just give me some of the thousands of dollars that I've already paid in.

I've been paying into unemployment for decades….I should get at least some of it back without all the red tape and hassles. I've worked for around 40 yrs and have been unemployed for about 6 months of that time (un-voluntarily) and have gotten only about 4 or 5 weeks worth of unemployment.

Just more reasons for me to do everything I can to avoid government. I'm one of those types that dreams about being one of those people who find an infant in the cemetary and apply for a social security number for them and live with a fake identity all their lives. That way when the government comes along, I don't exist.


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## Porosky (Mar 10, 2009)

I saw a stat that stated for 787 billion you could give EVERY US Citizen $50,000. For my family of four that would be 200,000 I would pay mortage buy new truck and invest in college for the kids. This would solve housing problem, auto problem, and stimulate economy big time.


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## trifern (Feb 1, 2008)

Liberalism = Socialism = Communism = Obamaism


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## getneds (Mar 18, 2009)

give 9 million people $500,000 each…..Now that would create spending,in turn create jobs, in turn will fix our economy, for the schmucks that try to gamble it in wall street,thats their problem, When someone gives me a half a miullion I wont need a get rich quick scheme. Send the money down the line. These rich bankers are already driving around in beamers,and benzes. Yeah give them more money…...it boils down to this…...

Debt is the modern format to slavery, Keep us in line and paying the MAN


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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

If your banking systems fails you become a liability on foreign markets and your dollar plunges .
When that happens foreign investment pulls out of your treasury bonds and you are toast.
I'll let you all figure the rest out.

The propping up of the auto industry is the one that has me baffled.

Bob


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## miles125 (Jun 8, 2007)

The government can't do anything for people without doing something to them. Need evidence? Just look around.


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## North40 (Oct 17, 2007)

$787 Billion divided by the population of the US (about 300 Million) is a little over $2600 per US Citizen, not $50k. If you take our entire national budget of about $3 Trillion and divide by population, it's about $10k per person.


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## North40 (Oct 17, 2007)

If you give 9 Million people $500k, that's $4.5 Trillion, given to 3% of the population. I don't think the other 97% are going to be very happy about paying for that.

Hey, it's too early, so I could be counting the zeros wrong, so feel free to check my math and correct me. But I think we have to check the math if we're going to have an intelligent conversation. Throwing around someone else's made-up stats does not contribute to an honest debate.

What did the commedian say … something like 45.7% of all statistics are made-up on the spot …


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## North40 (Oct 17, 2007)

So, to assuage my guilt at doing math instead of actually speaking to kolwoodworker's original topic …

The government is proposing giving banks about $8330 per mortgage. If the bank knocks $10k off of every troubled mortgage, that's not going to mean a thing to most mortgage holders. Many troubled mortgages were originally in the $300k range and were taken out in the last several years, which means there's still something like $297k owed on them. They need $100k reductions in order for people to (maybe) afford them and to be closer to current market values (lots of homes have lost 33% or more in value). We all know about the power of compound interest, so a $100k reduction in principle is going to be about $180k total loss for the bank. And remember, the $300k I'm assuming in this case has already been paid out by the bank to the seller of the home. If the government said to me, "We'll give you $8300 right now if you agree to take a $100k loss now plus an $80k loss over the next 30 years," I'd say, "no thanks."

Do I think it's the best solution? Nope. But do I think banks are making out like bandits on this one? Nope.


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## LocalMac (Jan 28, 2009)

Well it was inevitable. Tifern way to contribute intelligently. Instead of posting an ignorant statement that shows your lack of intelligence why don't you say something constructive. I personally voted for Obama and feel I made the right choice and I don't think I'm a socialist or a communist. Everyone has been doing a good job of keeping this thread civil and then someone has to make a foolish remark that is only intended to start a fight.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Peter stole my thunder, and the math is correct.

I'm not happy about the government bailout of banks and car manufacturers, but bailing out individuals isn't the answer either. Yes, a lot of people today are facing foreclosure because they lost their jobs, but that is not where the economic crisis began. It began with irresponsible lending to irresponsible borrowers…. people who purchased homes on ARM's that they could never afford once the balloon payments came due.

I don't want to bail out irresponsible individuals any more than I want to bail out irresponsible banks.


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## odie (Nov 20, 2007)

*How to Fix the Economy*

There was an article in "The St. Petersburg Times News
Paper". The Business Section asked the readers for ideas
on "How to fix the economy?"

This guy was right on.

Dear Mr President,

Patriotic Retirement:

There are about forty million people over fifty years

of age in the work force in the U.S.

Give each one of them one million dollars severance

pay with these stipulations.

#1. They must leave their jobs.

BINGO!! Forty million new jobs.

Unemployment fixed.

#2 They buy a new American made automobile.

BINGO!! Again - Auto industry fixed.

#3 They buy a new home or pay off their mortgage.

BINGO!!! Again- Housing crisis fixed.

Like I have been saying,they are bailing out the wrong people.

Honestly, why wouldn't this work?

*P.S. Trifern, I didn't recognize you.*


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## North40 (Oct 17, 2007)

Odie - why it wouldn't work … that's $40 Trillion!!


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## odie (Nov 20, 2007)




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## FatScratch (May 11, 2009)

I am a banker, which places somewhere on the level with lawyers in America now. I am a commercial banker for one of the largest banks in the world and fairly well versed in this industry. To circle back to the original question about where the mortgage aid for 9 million Americans is going - the answer is very few people will ever see it. I have read the plan and determined that while 9 million borrowers may qualify the stipulations are so complex and restrictive that very few will ever seek it. Banks do not receive these "incentives" unless we can match up the borrowers. The plan is even confusing for our lawyers. Basically, this was a proposition to appease Americans, which received so many stipulations in the government approval process that it made it almost worthless. Nobody wants to give money to people that don't deserve it, so the rules become so complex that it doesn't go where it is needed.

Please also think about "all the bankers are getting rich" comments. A few people at the top have gotten rich, which is the same in every industry. Banking is one of the most competitive industries in this country, with some of the lowest profit margins. The industry employs about 6% of the U.S. population. Banking has been changing since the 90's with lower profit margins and more government regulation. Banking is one of the most regulated industries in the U.S. Nobody really talks about that government regulation is one of the biggest causes to the banking failures. The introduction of various fair lending acts forces banks to make loans to many, many people they would otherwise not. The intentions were good, but vastly increased risk of default. Don't forget too, very few banks are owned by individuals. Almost all of them (there are over 3,000, large commercial banks in the U.S. - most countries have less than a dozen) are publicly traded. The shareholders are typically pension funds and individuals, that is who we answer to, and most are not very happy. Don't get me started on the mortgage-backed securities topic - that is one huge debacle which every shareholder loved and demanded more of until it all went bust.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Not only would pumping $40 trillion into the economy cause runaway inflation, but a large percentage of the recipients would be broke within 3 years, I betcha. And they'd all be looking for jobs again, and be facing foreclosure on the big homes they bought when they had money in their pockets. Back to square one….


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## PurpLev (May 30, 2008)

odie - that was a good one (if only I was in that age bracket….)

LocalMac, it's not fair to point the finger only at business owners that hire illegal immigrants - (potential) home owners are just as liable for that as they want to have the best home built, as soon as possible, for the least amount of money - and sorry to say - but most (not all mind you - but most) citizens wouldn't work so hard for so little to be able to produce such quality house for so little money in such a short time- but illegal immigrants do. most of them live on a different standard, and can get by (and more) with what they earn.


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## LocalMac (Jan 28, 2009)

I see your point, Purp. I wasn't placing all the blame on busines owners. You're absolutely right about the home owners point. I just think that if all businesses required a social security card, work visa, or birth certificate, it would cut down a lot of the problem.


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## oldworld124 (Mar 2, 2008)

PurpLev, Illegals have managed to bankrupt Mexifornia. So, you are correct that they are hard workers.They really work hard at working "the system" here. Our great leaders just want to overtax and over regulate us and still turn their heads from the real problems. Not a single peep has been said about the illegals and their massive burden on this state. 4,000,000 + is a HUGE number.


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## odie (Nov 20, 2007)

*The Americans With No Abilities Act*

Washington , DC - President Barack Obama and the Democrat controlled
Congress are considering sweeping legislation that will provide new
benefits for many Americans. The Americans With No Abilities Act
(AWNAA) is being hailed as a major legislative goal by advocates of
the millions of Americans who lack any real skills or ambition.

"Roughly 50 percent of Americans do not possess the competence and
drive necessary to carve out a meaningful role for themselves in
society," said California Senator Barbara Boxer. "We can no longer
stand by and allow People of Inability (POI) to be ridiculed and
passed over. With this legislation, employers will no longer be able
to grant special favors to a small group of workers, simply because
they have some idea of what they are doing."

In a Capitol Hill press conference, House Majority Leader Nancy Pelosi and
Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid pointed to the success of the U.S.
Postal Service, which has a long-standing policy of providing
opportunity without regard to performance. Approximately 74 percent of
postal employees lack any job skills, making this agency the single
largest U.S. employer of Persons of Inability.

Private-sector industries with good records of non-discrimination
against the Inept include retail sales (72%), the airline industry
(68%), and home improvement warehouse stores (65%). At the state
government level, the Department of Motor Vehicles also has an
excellent record of hiring Persons of Inability (63%).

Under AWNAA, more than 25 million mid-level positions will be created,
with important-sounding titles but little real responsibility, thus
providing an illusory sense of purpose and performance.

Mandatory non-performance-based raises and promotions will be given
so as to guarantee upward mobility for even the most unremarkable
employees. The legislation provides substantial tax breaks to
corporations that promote a significant number of Persons of Inability
into middle-management positions, and gives a tax credit to small and
medium-sized businesses that agree to hire one clueless worker for
every two talented hires.

Finally, the AWNAA contains tough new measures to make it more
difficult to discriminate against the non-abled, banning, for example,
discriminatory interview questions such as, "Do you have any skills or
experience that relate to this job?

"As a Non-abled person, I can't be expected to keep up with people who
have something going for them,"
said Mary Lou Gertz, who lost her position as a lug-nut twister at the
GM plant in Flint , Michigan , due to her inability to remember
rightey tightey, lefty loosey.
"This new law should be real good for people like me," Gertz added. With the passage of this bill, Gertz and millions of
other untalented citizens will finally see a light at the end of the
tunnel.

Said Senator Dick Durbin (D-IL), "As a Senator with no abilities, I
believe the same privileges that elected officials enjoy ought to be
extended to every American with no abilities. It is our duty as
lawmakers to provide each and every American citizen, regardless of
his or her inadequacy, with some sort of space to take up in this
great nation and a good salary for doing so."


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## LocalMac (Jan 28, 2009)

Great, now Limbaugh can get a job anywhere! : )


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## PurpLev (May 30, 2008)

Agree… I used to work with them, and saw it on a daily basis. they work hard, but also know how to 'work it' - well put.

the thing is that the government is aware of this, and although seems like they are working to 'resolve' the problem, they know that the economy today is based on this work force… the demand for it is just to vast (maybe now that the construction wave is slowing down it'll tip off that balance a bit). this scenario is happening all over the world, where cheap labor is brought in from external sources, and it ends up expanding to the point where it is no longer the minority - and then what?!?

anyways, back to the OP - I'm not sure throwing more money at the problem will solve it- as one mentioned money doesnt solve all the problems.

I think everyone needs to stop, and reevaluate where they are going, and whats the best way to get there with what we've got- like woodworking, sure, we can spend $$$KKK to get the most sophisticated CNC machine to make something for us ("solving a production need") - but we can also do it with handtools, and some genuine thinking. cant we? cant they?


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## RedShirt013 (May 17, 2008)

Giving 9 million people 1 million dollar each to pay for their debt and mortgage would not be a good idea.

If somebody spent 30 years of his/her life working hard to pay for the house they live in, why should the neighbors get theirs for free after only 2 years of payment? In a sense, it's their tax dollars that paying for their neighbor's new house. Is that fair?

The banking system, while it has its faults, would be the only reasonable way to distribute the money in a controlled manner without just giving it to people, many with little financial prudence, and still maintaining some kind of accountability. The government don't have the resource to handle this money assistance themself. It's bad enough that the govenment is bailing out the auto industry and auto workers, when there are many workers in other industries which don't get that kind of special treatment. Now what message does it send to reward poor financial decision and instead punish people who kept themselves out of debt.


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## odie (Nov 20, 2007)




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## Gene01 (Jan 5, 2009)

John,
Illegals aren't bankrupting Mexifornia. The voters who voted in the idiots that allowed the illegal problem to fester and grow are to blame. Not only those in Mexifornia are guilty. Every state in the union has senators and representatives who vote.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Politics can't live with Em and can't live with em.


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## kolwdwrkr (Jul 27, 2008)

Okay, so giving money to the public isn't the answer. Thank you everyone for the responses. They make sense. But what about the small business's that employ people. I hardly care if I keep my house and I realize that I over bought when my business was booming. I have made mistakes and can own up to them.

However, those mistakes aren't the sole reason my business went under. A lot of it is the recession, and I didn't create the recession. So because my business is effected by EVERYONE then we should all work together to "fix" the small business's that are effected by everyones actions, including the government. Our taxes should be taking care of this simply because small business's pay huge amounts in taxes just to exist. Not to mention state forced licenses, bonds, etc. Having to pay for all that crap on a regular basis, plus the high tax rate, plus workers comp, insurance, etc is a huge financial burden. And when work slows down these bills don't. That is what forces us under. At one point I was paying 30k a month to keep my shop open. I cut back on employees to compensate but then didn't have the efficientcy to keep up with the work. So essentially I lost money by making the cuts, but made the cuts to better afford the business expenses. Maybe California is to blame because of the severe regulations and fees you seemingly have to pay on a constant basis. 
My business was always referral based. I worked with designers doing things like the Philharmonic house of design where we donate work to benefit kids and music. The house is divided among several designers room to room in which they can decorate it as they please (within reason). The house is then opened up to the public for a fee. The money raised benefits the society. This show reached thousands of people as well as numerous designers. So I was getting work and all was good. Then the recession. The designers no longer had work to give me. So I was trying to reach the public. The general public shopping on their own are to cheap to use a business like mine, and with 50,000 shops every 10 square miles the work just wasn't coming in. My bills went unpaid. The shop payment, electrical, etc all still had to be paid. I still needed assistance to complete the jobs I had in a timely fashion so the guys still needed paid. With guys came workers comp. With no new work coming in the money coming from the jobs at hand were paying those bills. Not my mortgage and personal things. So credit cards went unpaid as well as taxes. 
Am I really to blame for the fact that people weren't coming to me for work? Even if I was getting clients I wouldn't get enough to pay the large bills. Downsizing to the garage was my option. So I could get out of the shop payment. But guess what. It's against Californias law to work at home. So screw me, if I can't afford an expensive shop (over 1.40 sqft here + cap) then I can't be in business? But I paid for all my licensing, bought all my tools, etc. 
I've paid my dues to be able to earn a living the way I need to. If the neighbor sits on her chair waiting for something to bitch about that's not my problem. People deal with construction noise on a regular basis. If it's not the neighbors repairing their house making noise its the gardeners blowing dust around with a noisy ass leaf blower. So why couldn't I work with my garage door down? Couldn't be any louder then someone playing loud music. 
My point is that there are ways for people to be able to make a living, but they can't because they are regulated and controlled. Freedom? What freedom? You are free to do as you are told, and pay a fee for it. 
So the business's that are suffering right now are the ones needing the boost. That would keep people employed giving them a check to spend on their mortgages as well as to pay for the upgrades they would do, clothing, electronics, etc. This means that people would have money to hire the small business's to do the plumbing, carpentry, etc that they need done on their homes. Or even car maintenance, keeping the auto industry in check. Who cares about auto makers. They just assemble the cars here with foreign parts. A majority of americans drive foreign vehicles anyway, that is why the american car companies are going bust to begin with. Why pay 40k for a truck when you can pay 28k? Without decent paying jobs people are forced to buy cheaper vehicles, which are typically foreign.
We need to keep business's here alive. Not necessarily big business's. Lets face it, the lower and middle class people are the ones shopping at the big business's that are closing down. They can't shop there because they lost their job at the small business. See my point? 
I'm not asking for a handout. But I should be able to make arrangements to continue to do business. Like maybe get a permit to work at home. Maybe get a tax leniance for previous business taxes I couldn't pay due to loss of work. This would also provide at least one person with a job, as I would likely need help. It's not to much to ask in my opinion. But I guess it really doesn't matter if we all go out of business and fail, not being able to get jobs and losing all our crap. You know what happens if that continues? Good bye civility, Hello Mad Max Era. People will loiter, riot, crime will increase (it already is), polution will increase, etc. 
The least they could do is take some of the other hanous restrictions away that prevent good citizens from getting city or state jobs like Law Enforcement. To become a police officer you have to have good financial standing. Well, I don't have good financial standing because of job loss, which is why I'm applying for the position to begin with, so that I would have a job. LOL. That's so stupid. 
I'm sure I'm wrong about a lot of things. Hell I may even sound like a complete dumbass. But one thing is clear to me. I am to restricted right now to better my life, and so is everyone else. That is a major reason why there are no jobs. The government takes and takes and takes, then when you need them they simply take more. And the citizens are to blame because we sit back and let them do it, afraid of the consequences. But this is a democratic country. The people are supposed to be in control of it. The way it's run its communism under covers. They speak like they understand and pretend to listen to the people, but yet they continue to make it harder to live, and control us more. That is communism, if not totalitarianism (spelling). I am by all means controlled by this society and government. I am NOT free.


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## PurpLev (May 30, 2008)

"Free" is an ideal…. nothing is ever free…

even when you got something for 'free' on craigslist - you still 'pay' for gas to get there to pick it up, and you pay with your time you spend on that drive…

doesn't mean we should lose hope, and feel trapped. just do the best we can - like you have been doing Keith. if the solution is not here today, it may be there tomorrow, or behind door #3…


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## kolwdwrkr (Jul 27, 2008)

Purp, I feel like if I choose doors I'm going to end up like Peter on Family Guy when they had that Boat giveaway. You could either take a free boat or choose what was in the box. He chose what was in the box and got screwed. LOL. Maybe I've already chosen the box without knowing it and am already screwed. LOL. I do push forward. That is really the only way to go. I am going to take the Law Enforcement test for the Orange Police Department. I failed the one in Riverside. I know they have the financial regulation, but I intend on going through with it anyhow. I am going to explain the situation in the interview process if I make it that far and if they can't understand the situation then chances are that I don't want to work for that type of system to begin with. Wish me luck


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## PurpLev (May 30, 2008)

family guy… love that show (only show I watch online… dont have TV).

good luck on the test - sound like a good direction… just don't beat up the tester at the end of it - chances will be higher to pass that way ;o)


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## GaryK (Jun 25, 2007)

You can't make sense of it.


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## Mario (Apr 23, 2007)

no matter wht happens I am going to live my life and make sawdust. : )

I can't change it so why worry.


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## HokieMojo (Mar 11, 2008)

one thing to remember about our fantasy solutions (I call them this because they seem to be our ideas and not something that is realistically going to happen) is that by giving everyone an equal amount of money, it devalues all that money equally. In otherwords, if everyone has 50,000 then 50,000 is no longer a lot of money. It is just average. Prices go up instantly, and the cycle resets itself leaving everyone broke again.


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## kolwdwrkr (Jul 27, 2008)

Mario, If everyone had that same mentality we'd all be up crap creek without a paddle. That's why we are under so much control. People put their heads down and let it happen. And it continues to get worse because of it. I strongly believe that we will turn into a third world country because the American people don't stand up and fight for what's right. It's funny. We don't hesitate to spend billions to go to war, help other nations rebuild, eat, and get educated. All the while we are not eating, we are becoming homeless, and our education system is failing. 
About the illegals. The government employs just under 20,000 border patrol agents to protect the united states from illegals entering. That's approximately 1 billion dollars a year providing that each one makes around 50,000 a year. (they are taxed the same as everyone though so some of the money gets taken back). So if the government hired 20,000 more agents that would be an additional 1 billion a year and it would take 75 years to ad up to what they are considering giving the banks. HOWEVER, It would create 20,000 new jobs, cut way back on the amount of illegals already here and entering, protect our borders, etc. Removing the illegals with the help of these 20,000 new agents would free up millions of jobs thus improving our economy, decreasing traffic congestion saving millions there, etc. In the long run I think the government would come out of top simply because of the income taxes all the jobs to LEGAL citizens would create. Take one job away from one illegal and give it to a tax paying citizen and that person just earned the government thousands a year alone, not to mention his ability to purchase goods and services for himself.
So yeah, solving the illegal immigration problem would solve all of our problems no matter how you look at it. It would free up our streets, open jobs up, free up our emergency rooms, decrease violance and gangs, and increase the amount of taxes paid to the government because legal citizens pay. 
I'd really like to hear the argument to that.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

The problem with capitalism is that most of the wealth eventually ends up in the hands of a few.

The problem with communism is the same.


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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

While we are all fighting for a piece of the dream:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/jan/14/china-world-economic-growth

Bob


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## pommy (Apr 17, 2008)

my two pennys worth

i read this thread and i'm sorry guys but your not the only ones who are in this mess u should come and live here in EASY STREET ( sorry Country ) when you go to the unemployment office here and you have worked hard all your life and payed your taxes they tell you, You haven't payed enough you prove you have and they still say you are entitled to zip and standing next to you is an immiagrent who can't even speak English will be given a house to live in and given my taxes to feed him self and i can't get anything so guys we are all suffering under the goverment's crap….


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## HokieMojo (Mar 11, 2008)

kolwdwrkr,
just to play devil's advocate, would citizens be willing to take the jobs of the imigrants that aren't coming in anymore, or would they say the pay for those jobs isn't sufficient andf doesn't offer health benefits, so they will just stick with gov't assitance instead? Would the companies that currently pay illegals to keep prices down, instead ship jobs overseas to keep getting cheap labor, in turn getting rid of more american jobs than were saved, because now the legal employees are out of luck?

You said you'd like to hear an argument to it, and this was the best I could come up with in 2 minutes. lol. i don't know the answers but i like to be a contrarian.


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## getneds (Mar 18, 2009)

All in All I'm Damn Proud to be an American. I love it here above all this crap. We all support an american heritage….Woodwork!!!!! We could be like south america where dirt floors are the norm, or africa digging for water in the middle of the desert. No we're here bitchin about the clean drinking water and kicken the dog…..look at us. Man it must be slow in woodworkersville. This thread is on the wrong website MAN.

But I love it!!!!


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## kolwdwrkr (Jul 27, 2008)

Hokie, by freeing up all of those jobs you also free up a lot of housing. You also have more food and supplies because they aren't being purchased by those people. You also free up hospitals. What does this do? It lowers housing costs, health care costs, cost of food and supplies, etc. That means that people can live off of less of an income. Am I wrong about that? The illegals live 6 families to one house. Americans don't. It's easy for a family of 6 to afford a 4 bedroom house as opposed to one family. It makes sense to me I think.

Sorry getneds if I over stepped my bounds by posting this on this site.


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## RedShirt013 (May 17, 2008)

kolwdwrkr, Hokie does have a point. If all the low wage workers are gone, of course there would be less drain on resource and more jobs opening up. But even if there are enough unemployed Americans to fill all those jobs, in the end the labor supply will still be lower and demand higher. Americans will want to work for more than the paltry wages Meximericans are getting. In turn inflation will skyrocket since for all companies and businesses wage expense is now much higher, thus pumping up cost of goods, food, and services. That effect will cumulate throughout the economy and things will only get more expensive not cheaper. Like it or not, imports and immigrants do play a part in raising the national living standard.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Hokie - Your post is right.
Illegal immigration is really just the 21st century slave trade.


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## LocalMac (Jan 28, 2009)

Sorry Kol, but Hokie is right. Getting rid of illegals would not fix all of our problems. Unfortunately there will always be greed in America. Once the illegals are gone Americans won't want to work for what they did. Those same people that sat on their asses crying about immigrants taking their jobs would now refuse to take job offers because they feel they don't pay enough. Then the prices would go up on goods. Americans will continue to live off welfare and government programs. I know people who refuse to get a job because they're content with taking advantage of programs that are meant to help people become independent and not dependent. Gangs will always exist and so will homeless. That's just the reality of capitalism. There needs to be poor to be wealthy.

Dave I love your picture. He Bruce Cambell signed that same poster for me. He wrote on it the quote "shop smart, shop s-mart"- Ash


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## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

If you vote for the lesser of two evils. You are still voting for evil.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

There are laws on the books to take care of illegals working in America. Everytime I hire, I have to get ID and have a 1-9 immigration form filled out. Those laws are not enforced unless "they" want to get some one for some reason.

One of my uncles was a meat cutter at Hormel. He eventually retired on a pension. That job is now a minimum wage, no benefits job employing a lot of illegals. What we really have is a race to the bottom.

There have only been 2 periods in 200 years with a middle class; at the time of the Revolution and post WWII. The rest of the time, the masses worked for subsistance level wages.


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## oldworld124 (Mar 2, 2008)

I once had a mexifornian stop by a jobsite and ask if I needed any help. I asked him how much he wanted to dig a trench 2' deep and 60' long. He replied, $20 per hour. That is not a paultry sum. I told him to take a hike. BTW, he could not speak any english.


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## SteviePete (May 10, 2009)

You're all spot on! I can't think of any place that has it as bad a we do. Not.

Go plane a board.


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## DaleM (Feb 18, 2009)

Steve, did you say "go board a plane"? Are you telling them to leave the country if it's so bad? Okay, I just read it again "go plane a board". Sorry about that.


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## kolwdwrkr (Jul 27, 2008)

Steve, I'm out of material and out of work. The only planing you'll see from me for a while is complaining. LOL. I apologize for doing so, but I'm board. Oh I mean bored. See I still have woodworking on my mind. LOL


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## LocalMac (Jan 28, 2009)

John if he asked for a wage below minimum wage would you have hired him? Something tells me most people would. But if it had to be on the books and lawfully done people suddenly have "morals". Did you know if he was an illegal alien or not? If so, by hiring him you would have part of the problem. But here's to hoping you knew he was a citizen and had the intention of paying him at least minimum wage.


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## oldworld124 (Mar 2, 2008)

I knew he was an illegal and I just asked because I was curious about his answer. I do not hire illegals and have become quite adept at identifying them. I ASSUME these guys to be illegals. I actually do not hire as I do all of the work myself except for sub contracting. I would love to be able to just load them up in my truck and take them to the feds, but they won't accept them. That is what is the problem. OUR government is in cahoots with the invaders!!! Along with the vote whores and businesses out to make a buck without a care of the consequences.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I was on a public job that is Prevailing Wage. A sheet rocker told me they had illegals on one of the crews. The union refused to try to do anyting about it. The state didn't. Immigration told him to send in a complaint in the mail as they didn't take them over the phone! I've seen contractors using unqualified people as electricians on a school job. I considered the workmanship to be borderline arson!!


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Isn't this a woodworking site? I didn't spend the time to read all of the opinions and such - but we need more woodworking and less politics on this site or the site will just become boring to the people who come here to woodworking.


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## GaryC (Dec 31, 2008)

Coffee Lounge
Need a break from all the standing and wood dust? Chat with your Forum Friends about their projects, their life, thei…

Some people want to make the rules without reading the rules


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Don't discuss politics and religion, unless it is directly related to woodworking.

Just saying - the site is becoming more jokes and political discussions and less woodworking. Just my two cents - don't expect anyone else may agree with me. But that's OK.


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## LocalMac (Jan 28, 2009)

Originally Keith was talking about how the government is throwing away billions of dollars. This money should be going towards woodworkers so they can start up businesses and rebuild America. There. Now politics is directly related to woodworking. Can't wait to read your next forum topic on woodworking, Betsy. : ) Just ruffling your feathers.


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## kolwdwrkr (Jul 27, 2008)

Betsy, I will make sure to post something that is better suited to this site. Sorry for using the coffee lounge for this topic if it was against the rules. I don't want to cause problems with it with anyone.

I've noticed some comments about the fact that we don't have it as bad as other countries and that I should just be happy with what I got. Or whatever. I'm not comparing the united states with any country. In fact I don't know what it is like in other countries as far as the lifestyle is, nor do I care. I don't live there, I live here. What I don't want to see happen is this country becoming as bad as other countries. We are supposed to have the ability to stand up for our country and fight for what is right. I believe that is Democracy. However, it seems we get crapped on when we do. So I'll accept this country as communism, hunker down, and let the government control my life. Nobody stands up for what they believe in anymore, and I thought that was the strength this country was built on. 
Like I said before, 3rd world country here we come.


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## LocalMac (Jan 28, 2009)

Who runs Barter Town?....


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

We're definitely being sold down the tube because we have the best gov't money can buy!!


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## LocalMac (Jan 28, 2009)

Master Blaster!


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## GaryC (Dec 31, 2008)

Again, taken from the rules at the top of the forum: Need a break from all the standing and wood dust? Chat with your Forum Friends about their projects, *their life*, *their philosophies*, and get to know each other better. Whether you drink Coffee, or Soda Pop, grab a cup/can, and enter the world of our Forum Coffee Lounge.


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