# Titebond 3 Failure: Is TB3 a Weaker Glue than Regular PVA?



## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

I'm making a wooden beer mug from quarter sawn white oak for my cousin by gluing up 12 staves to form a cylinder and then turning it to shape on my lathe. I'm using a stainless steel insert for the the inside and because the wood will probably get wet when washing decided to use Titebond 3 since it is supposed to be waterproof. After getting the outside and inside turned to final shape, I parted it off to final length. I needed to clean up the bottom where my parting was not quite flush and also wanted to chamfer the bottom slightly so the mug sat just on the outside edge. I clamped the mug in my chuck, this time from the inside, supported the bottom end with a slightly conical face plate in my tail stock and stared flattening and then working on the chamfer. I was almost done when I got a very minor catch and the mug split exactly in half along 2 glue lines. With the exception of a sliver near the top where the mug was tapered to its thinnest point, the failure was completely in the glue joint. You could see glue residue along surfaces on both sides with no gaps.

I've never had a glue joint fail before when using standard wood glue. When I have had something break, the wood fails before the glue joints do. This is my first time using Titebond 3 and my first time to use white oak. Has anyone else experienced this sort of failure of TB3? Just wondering if it is not as strong as regular PVA. I am also wondering if my glue surfaces were too smooth for the white oak or if the closed cell nature of white oak didn't allow the glue to penetrate to create a strong bond somehow? Any thoughts about what might have caused the failure?

(Note that because it was such a clean break, I sanded the glue residue from the surfaces and glued it back together with epoxy so I am able to salvage the work. It will also have some steel rings like a barrel so even if the glue fails in the future the rings should hold it all together. Instead of turning the bottom, I decided to use my router to get the chamfer. I will also glue the mugs handle on with epoxy now that I don't trust the TB3. )

I was going to post a before and after disaster picture but I'm getting an error from Lumberjocks website.


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## daddywoofdawg (Feb 1, 2014)

tb3 should't fail,my guess is it just glue to it's self with no real bonding to the wood.all glue needs something to grab to.maybe stop at 120 grit on the joints.


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## OSU55 (Dec 14, 2012)

Do a lot of segmented turning, with a lot of end grain joints, and use tb3. The only issues Ive had were operator error. For turnings, even with face or edge grain, I apply 100% coverage to both surfaces, let sit for a few minutes to wet the wood, then apply a 2nd coat and assemble. Lite assembly clamp for a few minutes to align and allow wetting time, then gradually work up to full clamp.

Never had a failure of a joint with this process, only when I dont. Yes it uses more glue and there is plenty of squeeze out, which gets wiped and or turned off. Sounds like the glue was squeezed out of the joint before wetting the fibers. It wont matter how smooth the wood is if the fibers are properly wetted.

Its also possible the glue started to set before assembly.


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## pintodeluxe (Sep 12, 2010)

How long did the glue dry before the piece was worked? I know some say that a glueup can be worked in a matter of hours, but I like to wait overnight. Make sure the joint is not glue starved. Check the manufacture date on the bottle of glue.

I generally prefer TBII for white oak. Although I have rarely had a glue joint failure, the TBIII sometimes leaves a dark line at the joint. I use TBIII on walnut projects.

I find the "waterproof" label on glues to be somewhat dubious. It doesn't hold up to the dishwasher, I know that.


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## johnstoneb (Jun 14, 2012)

I would guess it probably wasn't clamped tight enough.


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## splintergroup (Jan 20, 2015)

You need to shake/mix up the TBIII before use. The solids tend to settle out over a few hours and the remaining substance that will be squeezed out when yo apply from the standard bottle will be rather runny. 
I don't know if this is was an issue with your glue or if the joints are excessively weakened from this, but it apparently is a result of the recent reformulation of TBIII.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

All good thoughts so far. I had a pretty good coating on both surfaces on both sides. In fact, before I cleaned it off to re-glue with epoxy you could see that there was still thin layer of glue along the entire surface. I had this clamped pretty well, I used a ton of rubber bands and then applied 2 ratchet clamps straps to ensure it was tight. I got plenty of squeeze out but the broken joint didn't look starved either. I didn't shake the glue up because it didn't say to on the label but from now on, I guess I will. 


> I find the "waterproof" label on glues to be somewhat dubious. It doesn t hold up to the dishwasher, I know that.
> 
> - pintodeluxe


Pintodeluxe, I will definitely recommend that the mug not be immersed to clean it but I thought it would be best to use a glue that was at least water resistant. If nothing else, it needs to be able to withstand a beer overflow and rinsing.

The break came at least 24 hours after glue up, though I started turning after only about 14 hours (overnight). I'm a new wood turner so I got multiple catches during the process that were worse than the one that failed. The only thing I can think of is that there must have been a small gap at this joint the tool I was using to clean up the bottom caught. I've just never seen a glue joint fail before the wood does. Actually it was 2 glue joints on opposite sides of the mug that failed and since I've never used TB3 before, I'm just wondering if that has anything to do with it.


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## bbasiaga (Dec 8, 2012)

How well were you able to clamp it? If you were gluing angle pieces together, you might not have been able to get good pressure to bond the glue.

-Brian


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## woodbutcherbynight (Oct 21, 2011)

I do a lot of small projects that require glue of some sort. Sure it is dry, you cannot pull it apart and the manufacture says it is ready for use in xyz amount of time. But it is a chemical process, that means time must pass to not just dry but to cure. With this in mind I leave it cure for days, sometimes weeks before returning to work with it again.

While this may have nothing to do with the cause of your issue letting it cure longer would be a good idea. Several others posted good ideas as to why it failed, check into what they have suggested as well.


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## jumbojack (Mar 20, 2011)

Any chance your glue froze this winter?


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

> Any chance your glue froze this winter?
> 
> - jumbojack


I bought the glue from Home Depot right before I used it so unless if froze before it got to Home Depot, it didn't freeze in my garage/shop which I heat with one of those portable A/C-Heater combo units.

I also tried to determine the date from the lot number printed on the bottle but they put it into a code that I cannot decipher into a date.



> How well were you able to clamp it? If you were gluing angle pieces together, you might not have been able to get good pressure to bond the glue.
> 
> -Brian
> 
> - bbasiaga


I probably should have mentioned this before. I initially assembled all 12 staves in the cylinder but left the glue out of 2 of the joints on opposite sides and then used tape, rubber bands and finally 2 ratchet clamps to hold it in the cylinder shape while the glue set. After the glue set, this basically left me with 2 halves. I then sanded those surfaces on a piece of sand paper laying on my workbench to make sure that the opposite surfaces where coplaner. Then I glued the 2 halves together. With the final glue up I was able to add 4 clamps on top of the bands to get a little extra pressure. I did this in 2 passes to account for the couple of degrees of error that accumulates when cutting 24 15 degree angles for the staves on my table saw. Now I am thinking that it was probably this final glue joint that failed so maybe adding the clamps somehow put unequal pressure on the it? That is probably the only explanation other than a bad batch of glue. Since the other joints seem perfect, I guess I am going to assume that something went wrong with my clamping approach.


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

it froze
and you cut a "not worthy joint" exponentially ?
i would lien to the first excuse or blame something else


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

really
when i think about it
i dont recall them using glue to make a barrel
or did i miss something ?


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

on the other hand
i have not seen them use glue to make a barrel
that could hold water


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

most stores who sell it

will unconditionally back it up

so the worst scenario

they give you your money back for failing to read the directions


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## conifur (Apr 1, 2015)

I think if you read the label on Tite Bond glues which is what I use, II and III and colored II they say do not machine for 24hours/over night.


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## conifur (Apr 1, 2015)

I guess Moron lives up to his his name with his goofy, opinionated, non factor based answers.


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## jerryminer (Jun 15, 2014)

> I also tried to determine the date from the lot number printed on the bottle but they put it into a code that I cannot decipher into a date.


FWIW, here is what Franklin says about reading the date code on their products:

"The lot number is date coded. The first digit represents the last digit of the year: 9 for 1999, 0 for 2000, etc. This number is followed immediately by a letter: A for January, B for February, etc. The letter I is not used; H stands for August, and J, for September."

They used to say that there is letter A at the beginning to represent country of origin-America--but I don't know if that is still used or not.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

> FWIW, here is what Franklin says about reading the date code on their products:
> 
> "The lot number is date coded. The first digit represents the last digit of the year: 9 for 1999, 0 for 2000, etc. This number is followed immediately by a letter: A for January, B for February, etc. The letter I is not used; H stands for August, and J, for September."
> 
> ...


Hmm? The lot code is partially smudged but it starts with A51014011? Except for the A at the beginning I don't see any letters to represent a month. Perhaps the 10 after the 5 represents October? At a minimum it sounds like it was made last year.



> I think if you read the label on Tite Bond glues which is what I use, II and III and colored II they say do not machine for 24hours/over night.
> 
> - conifur


I took some pictures on my iPad of the glue up and when I started to turn it. The time between final glue up and turning was at least 22 hours. By the time that I had the failure it was over 48 hours after glue up. Also, up until that point I had the mug clamped in my chuck with an outside grip but had to switch to an inside grip when cleaning up the bottom due to the outside taper on the top of the mug. Maybe those 2 hours made a difference but I think it probably most likely has to do with the clamping when I joined the the 2 halves since those appear to be the joints that failed. Perhaps the inside grip stressed those joints to the point that a small catch broke them.

After I finish the mug, I think that I may try a little semi-scientific experiment to compare TB3 to the regular Elmer's wood glue that I typically use. If I do, I'll either post a new forum topic or a blog entry with the results. I also seem to recall reading an article that said you should not assume that TB2 or TB3 are better than the original Titebond PVA glue. One reason that I never bought 2 or 3 before now. (Now that I think about it I think that I have only used Elmer's before now). I will have to see if I can find that article again.


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## runswithscissors (Nov 8, 2012)

Just when you thought you were safe, here comes another worry: white oak and epoxy are reputed to not get along well together. Boatbuilders in particular are wary of this. I believe the reason is that, over time, tanins in the oak react chemically with the epoxy.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

> Just when you thought you were safe, here comes another worry: white oak and epoxy are reputed to not get along well together. Boatbuilders in particular are wary of this. I believe the reason is that, over time, tanins in the oak react chemically with the epoxy.
> 
> - runswithscissors


Doh! I just consulted my friend Google and see that there is quite a controversy about white oak and epoxy. It is mostly boat builders that seem to have opinions about the pros and cons of epoxy and white oak. I did find at least one test that showed that it works just fine but there is plenty of anecdotal evidence that there can be problems. That being said, I am not worried that the repaired cylinder will fail again because I actually have 2 steel rings tightly pressed on from the top much like a barrel that will prevent the body of them mug from breaking. I am most concerned about using glue to attach the mug's handle. I again used epoxy to attach it but decided to add a couple of dowels as well to provide a little mechanical support . I also drilled some small shallow pockets in both the cylinder and the handle for the epoxy to fill that I hope will add some additional mechanical support. As long as it doesn't get dropped and hit the handle at a awkward angle I am hopeful that it will survive. Of course if a good pale ale is spilled in the process, *THAT *would be a catastrophe.

The mug is almost finished so barring some other problem look for my project posting sometime next week.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

BTW, I stumbled upon this article from Fine Woodworking that gives a pretty good scientific review of the holding power of various types of glue in different types of wood. It pretty much answered my original question. In most conditions, TB3 IS slightly stronger than regular PVA wood glue so that pretty much leads me to the conclusion that my problem was either poor joint/clamping or bad batch of glue.

http://www.oldbrownglue.com/images/articles/HowStrongisYourGlue_FWW.pdf


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## JBrow (Nov 18, 2015)

Lazyman,

I sounds like you followed manufacturer's instructions and the glue itself failed. My recommendation is to contact Franklin International at 800-347-4583. I would think/hope the manufacturer would be very interested in your experience, especially if you have pics. Additionally, they may definitively identify the reason for the failure, and who knows, maybe they will want the glue back and you could get a coupon out of it. Free TiteBond is always a good thing.


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## skipj (Mar 6, 2012)

From what I understand your date code reads….

A51014011
A=Made in America
5=Made in 2015
10=Made in Oct. 10th month


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## Cooler (Feb 3, 2016)

Resorcinol. This from a boat building website:

http://www.diy-wood-boat.com/Glue.html

Resorcinol.

This is the adhesive which, is used to make marine grade plywood marine grade, simply because it is the best waterproof wood to wood adhesive.

It is rarely advertised, for the DIY market because the manufacturers sell enough to industry.

However it can be bought in small quantities.

This is a high exposure resistant and waterproof adhesive.

Resorcinol has two components.

It is comprised of a liquid resin and a hardener which can be either powder or liquid.

Joints are strongest on closely meeting faces where, clamping pressure is high.

Excellent for laminating as it will not creep once the initial set has occurred.

However, it does leave a dark colored line along the joint.

There are two main grades one of which can only be used in warm temperatures.


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

as a note

I always keep my big jug of this glue on its side and turn it everyday to keep the glue mixed as I have noticed over time, the glue gets very watery on the top, and thick on the bottom


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

I just remembered that I have the base that I parted from the mug cylinder prior to the operation that resulted in the joint failure. After looking at this more closely under magnification, I can see that the joints that failed have wider glue line than the others staves. I would estimate that the width is about the thickness of 1.5 to 2 sheets of 20 lb printer paper compared to less than the thickness of a single sheet for the other joints. Not sure that you can really see it in these pictures but here they are anyway. In any other application, I would not have have considered this a bad joint but I guess for segmented turning…


















And here is a picture after failure that shows just how close I was to being finished with my turning. I might have had about 1/4" left on the chamfer. This picture was taken after I cleaned the old glue off the joint before I re-glued it with epoxy. You can actually see the sandpaper I used to re-flatten the joint before re-gluing. Note that I did that on the cast iron table saw surface, not the top of my cross-cut sled.


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## robscastle (May 13, 2012)

Take a mugs advice and follow the information supplied by JBrow then report back please.

Just to add more banter:
I do not turn Mugs or do activities that stress joints the the same extent as Lazyman does.
So in knowing my experience evaluate the following for what its worth.

I have never had any Titebond products fail which I could determine was a glue fault.
I have never had Titebond freeze, where do you guys keep your glue? in the beer fridge?
I have never shaken the bottle before use apart from inverting it when I am using it
I have never seen Titebond separate or "liquify" or go "runny" 
Just the opposite, the Titebond I have does "go off" after time and I have seen it start to solidify when its almost empty however I have still used it on projects anyway.
Titebond III is not designed to be immersed in water.

From the images posted I see no error in assembly which you could identify as a cause of failure.
Just the opposite a very well constructed stave job, no doubt you were surprised it happened.
Keep up the good work and lets see a finished product soon.


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## distrbd (Sep 14, 2011)

I kept 1/2 bottle of TBIII in my garage one winter and forgot about it,it must have gone through freezing and thawing 3-4 times if not more until I realized what I had done, found out that the manufacturer recommends not to use any of their glue if it went through one freeze/thaw, nevermind 3 or 4.

I tried to warm the bottle up in a warm water but couldn't revive it, tested it on 2 scrap pieces of wood ,it failed measurably, so I threw the bottle out and since then never keep TB glue in my garage during winter.

I also try not to order any wood glue during winter,it can stay in the delivery truck over night,that's all it takes to ruin it .
HD or any other store wouldn't know whether the TBIII they sell was ever frozen or not.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

I finally finished the beer tankard. You can check it out here. 
http://lumberjocks.com/projects/228146

Thanks everyone for the the input. If I get around to experimenting with TB3 vs regular PVA, I will post the results.

-NG


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