# Table saw advice wanted for getting into cabinet making



## Hotpuppy (Aug 14, 2013)

Hi,
I'm just getting into cabinet making. I'm not sure if the table saw I have will do the job or not. I'd like some feedback from others who have been down this path before.

I have a Ryobi RTS31 "portable" table saw. It has a decent work size and i've done some moderately complicated work on it in the past. I'm just not sure how it will do for cabinets.

I am considering upgrading to something like a used or new Ridgid R4512. That's about what my budget is okay with.

My most complicated project in the past has been a 350 Gallon Saltwater aquarium, the stand for it, and a 55 Gallon sump / filtration unit for it. Acrylic tanks are not cabinetry, but they are very demanding in terms of accuracy and clean saw cuts. It's essentially a water tight box that supports hundreds or thousands of pounds of weight.

I used a combination of a straight edge and skilsaw and the Ryobi table saw for all my cuts. I will be working in a 1500 s/f shop next to my house. So I have plenty of space.

What I will build first are some frame and panel units to go above and below the aquarium. Then i want to build a couple of bathroom vanities, all the cabinetry and furniture for a 20 foot airstream trailer, and then probably re-do my kitchen.

For the aquarium, I want to make the frames from maple (or something that can be stained to resemble maple) and 1/4 or 3/8" cherry veneer core plywood ( or something that can be made to look like cherry plywood). The aquarium serves as a divider in the master bedroom suite and I would like it to have the same theme as my bed frame and dresser set. I am thinking primarily of a shaker style design and will be using pocket screws where appropriate. I have a Kreg jig and while I realize there are stronger, prettier joinery methods the pocket screw method will work well for many of my projects.

The aquarium panels will be mounted using panel clips like the ones rockler sells http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=32598&rrt=1 Easy to remove if needed, but otherwise looks stationary.

My panel sizes are 30×32 (x6) and 36×32 (x1) for the upper and probably the same size/qty for the lower section.

Everything else should be smaller sections then this. What should I look at when trying to decide about an upgrade on the table saw? The articles I have read so far make it sound like you can't cut scrap if you don't have a $5K table saw. lol.

I have taken the time to adjust the fence on this saw, but I recognize that it has limitations. I'm just not sure if a $500 hybrid saw isn't going to have alot of the same limitations.

A little additional detail: I also think I probably need to buy a jointer and surface planer. I've seen some nice combo units around $500.

Woodworking Tools I currently have:
3 handheld routers (old makita, a harbor freight, and a Ryobi)
2 benchtop router tables 
A "basic" sliding compound miter saw (10" Harbor Freight) 
A older compound miter saw, Delta 10" - high mileage
A 7" ryobi compound miter saw, currently mounted to a saw stand that can be set to make reliable repetitive cuts.
5hp Qunicy Air Compressor.
Assorted clamps, cordless drills, hammers, nail guns, pneumatic drills/sanders, etc.

Most of my carpentry to date has been construction oriented and so my tools were chosen to meet those needs. If there are other tools I should be thinking of I would appreciate the suggestions.


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## knotscott (Feb 27, 2009)

Welcome to LJ's HP. A jointer and planer are excellent additions if you'll be using dimensional lumber.

I think you're on the right track for a table saw…full size, belt drive with an induction motor. Given a decent fence, good alignment, and proper blade, most will do a good job for you. If you were to give your location, someone here might have a lead on a good used saw.

The ABC's of Table Saws


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## bowedstraight (Jul 18, 2013)

If your building cabinets I would go for a sliding tablesaw would be easier to cut good straight lumber


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## bowedstraight (Jul 18, 2013)

if your going into production that is


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## bowedstraight (Jul 18, 2013)

I would get the biggest tablesaw I could afford something that would saw all day if that answers your question


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## Hotpuppy (Aug 14, 2013)

Hi,
I'm not going to go into production. I'm just building some cabinets for myself for several projects. It's something I have always wanted to do. I live in Houston in the Heights district. I plan to purchase lumber from Clark's Hardwood Lumber - a local trade lumber yard with a nice selection and good staff.

I went to the local Rockler store today to look at toys and tools. Nice folks. They wanted to talk me into a Jet Contractor saw. It's a nice unit, but I think the Ridgid R4512 would be just as nice. There is one on Craigslist for $400 that doesn't look like it was abused much. http://houston.craigslist.org/tls/3985013285.html It was at $450… still not sure it's that great of a deal. I already have the Freud Dado set. lol.

There is one for a little less that looks bad… http://houston.craigslist.org/tls/3918813146.html $300 which probably means it could be had for $250

Problem is that they are $529 new. Anyhow…..

What I really want is : http://austin.craigslist.org/tls/3989963732.html 5HP 52" Unisaw. lol. Seriously it's a nice looking saw and I have 400A 3phase service in my shop… so I think I can run this too. LOL. I also think it's overkill for what I want to do do and the Ridgid will do what I need.

I should confess, I like nice tools…. Anyhow, I'm off to HomeDepot to look at the Ridgid saw in person. All the internet pictures look great, it's in-person that you can truly get an idea of if something is quality or not.


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## MrFid (Mar 9, 2013)

I have the Ridgid R4511 (sort of the same as the R4512, but mine has a granite top… pros and cons). It does what I need it to do, and is well built and fully adjustable and tuneable, where my old Ryobi POS (that should be the official model name) was not adjustable in the slightest. I have tuned my Ridgid to the point where it does a great job. No, it's not a Unisaw, but at $250 barely used (talked down from $300), I couldn't pass it up. You'll find lots of proponents of the R4512 on here.

If you haven't done so already, read KnotScott's link to his blog in comment #1 above. He also has a great article regarding blades. Helped me tremendously for deciding what I needed.


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## firefighterontheside (Apr 26, 2013)

Wouldnt worry about the rust on the top of that saw. The cast iron rusts easily when not used or waxed. Probably just means it wasnt used a lot.


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## dschlic1 (Jan 3, 2013)

I would continue to look at Craigslist. Also Craftsman table saws of the 113.xxx vintage are very good. I have one and just completed a custom cabinet entertainment center. I purchased mine for $90.


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## MT_Stringer (Jul 21, 2009)

Good choice on your lumber yard. That is where I buy my wood also.
BTW I have the Grizzly 1023 RLW and love it.


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## SCOTSMAN (Aug 1, 2008)

I would say( not an expert though ) the delta unisaw looks very nice I have a friend who imported one to Scotland from The good old USA and he loves it. I wish you well and hope you get the biggest and best you can afford you'll never look back with regret but if you purchase a smaller one you might well wish you had gotten the delta.It depends on whether your building a workshop or not if yes then the delta is best but for taking to places to work for you either of the others.I have only experience with delta stuff I rate it highly as I have several delta items here in scotland.Luck be with you kindest regards Alistair


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## crank49 (Apr 7, 2010)

The Ridgid 4512 is not half the saw the 4511 was. The granite top 4511 had cabinet mounted trunnions and was generally considered a very good saw.

But, the 4512 has a flimsy elevate and tilt mechanism on the arbor, the trunnions are mounted on the top and they are hell to adjust. Many of these saws have a defect that causes the blade to shift out of alignment with the miter slot when ever you change the elevation. I know this, because I have one with the problem. I would LOVE to sell mine for $400. I only paid $409 for it when it was new (MSRP was $649). However, if you get one and verify it does not have the shifty alignment issue, then folks seem to be pretty happy with them otherwise. Some users don't like the split rails for the fence.

If I was looking to build cabinets I would be looking for a deal on a panel saw or a slider.


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## Hotpuppy (Aug 14, 2013)

I went and looked at the R4512…. it's okay… but it's certainly not a Unisaw.

What do you think of the Jet JWTS-10JF?
http://galveston.craigslist.org/tls/4001703765.html This one looks nice and is listed at $350 which seems very reasonable.

I thought Jet's fence assembly was more solid then the Ridgid.

I don't know if it's normal, but I found that the Ridgid at Home Depot tended to pull to the right when the fence was clamped. Maybe 1/16 or 1/8th of an inch. I looked at the Jet and it did the same thing but it seemed like a much more solid saw.

I appreciate all the great feedback and things to consider…. you guys are awesome!


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## kimosawboy (Apr 7, 2010)

If you have 3phase in your shop that opens a lot of doors for you regarding tools. First and foremost find out exactly what type of power you have available, then start smart shopping for used 3phase tools. The majority of 3phase tools go really cheap second hand as most people do not have that type of power. Most of the older machines were built, back when quality meant something….... 
I could blather on and on but I think that I have made my point.
Good luck
G Vavra


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## Hotpuppy (Aug 14, 2013)

I am certain that I have 400amp 3 phase high-leg service in my workshop. I built the building and installed the electrical. The city inspectors office fought me tooth and nail on the electric service arguing that I didn't need 3 phase or 400amp.

I agree, 3 phase tools and machines often don't have as much competition. However, I'm not setting up a commercial cabinet shop so I don't need the best tool that money can buy. I need the best tool for my projects that I can find within my budget. 

I love nice tools…. but in my opinion, the right tool for the job isn't always the most expensive or nicest tool. Case in point, I put the siding on my 1500 s/f shop using the cheapest corded drills I could find…. Ryobi $19.99 drills at the time. I knew that I had unskilled helpers who thought nothing of dropping them in the dirt. They got the job done and have seen very little use since then. I could have bought really nice DeWalt drills, but I would have been mad when they got tore up.

As I see it right now, I need a saw that is safe, has sufficient power, accurate, repeatable, is stable, can handle 30" panel rips, and can handle 1 to 2" hardwoods. The ridgid R4512 would probably work, but the Jet JWTS-10JF I found on craigslist is a better saw…. and while I'd like to own that $900 Unisaw it's more saw than I need or want to dedicate space to. It's a beautiful saw that looks like it belongs to someone who takes care of it. But it's more saw than I need, it's 2.5 hours away, and as much as I'd like to have it I'd rather take the savings and invest in other tools I don't have… like a full size router table and decent router or a dust collector.


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## JayT (May 6, 2012)

$350's not bad for that Jet, not a steal, but you wouldn't be getting ripped off, either.

However, since you have it available, I agree with kimosawboy and would be after a used 3 phase Unisaw, Powermatic or similar. The one in that CL ad might be "overkill" for your current project, but there is a lot to be said for the extra mass and power of a full size cabinet saw. It means the saw isn't working as hard, you don't have to push as hard, etc. It all adds up to a safer experience and longer life for the tools. Additionally, if you will be working with sheet goods, that long table and fence are invaluable.

The price is fair for what it is, but you could always offer less. Given the choice of the Jet for $300 or the 3ph Unisaw for $750, I'd pick the Uni every time. If you are patient, you might even be able to find one in the $300-400 range, as 3ph saws are tough to sell on the used market.

Just my 2 pennies worth. (Dang, must be nice to have 3phase power)


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## Hotpuppy (Aug 14, 2013)

Haha… powermatic turned up some strange things

http://houston.craigslist.org/tls/3980228562.html Anyone recognize this $40 monster?


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## Grandpa (Jan 28, 2011)

I bought a Unisaw that looks exactly like the one this fellow has on Craigslist. I paid $180 at an auction for mine. They had several and they brought from $180 to $300 depending on when they sold. I bought the first one. The others sold higher and didn't appear to be any different on wear and tear. I felt like I got a deal. I would look for something like that. I think the Unisaw I one of the better tools. Maybe not the best but one of the better saws. I would get the largest I could afford and fit into my shop. It is always better to work a BIG tool a little below its capability than to work a small tool above its capability. That Unisaw is not too far out of line. That saw sells new for a lot more today. I realize it isn't new but it appears to be serviceable.


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## firefighterontheside (Apr 26, 2013)

That fence moving when you clamp it is probably bringing it to square. When its sliding it can skew a little either way depending on which way you just slid it. You have measure to the blade after you tighten it. What I do is clamp down partly to square and then measure. Once it is the correct distance from the blade I will clamp it all the way.


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## knotscott (Feb 27, 2009)

Most of the saws you linked to are just about worth the asking price. That Unisaw is in a different league than the contractor saws….if you can swing it, go for it. If not, I'd look to snag one of those 3650's….offer a little less and see what happens. That rust should clean up pretty easily, and makes for a good bartering point….$225-$250 would nice. Even that Jet isn't a bad deal….cast iron wings, mobile base, and a workable fence…..$275-$300 is fair for both parties (if you pass on the Uni or the 3650's). Even that old PM would make for an interesting project…..it's gotta be worth $40 in scrap.


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## Hotpuppy (Aug 14, 2013)

Did Delta / Rockwell ever make a saw for Craftsman (Sears)? I found this on CL locally and it looks an awful lot like a Unisaw….
http://houston.craigslist.org/tls/3956981601.html at $550 with a B-fancy fence it might be worth a look. It looks old enough to pre-date Sears cost-cutting and quality cutting.

Thoughts?


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## knotscott (Feb 27, 2009)

That looks like a 22124 made by Steel City…..1.75hp, yoke style cabinet mounted trunnions, Biese fence….nice saw, but it's no Unisaw.


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## Hotpuppy (Aug 14, 2013)

Thanks for the quick response….

What is a yoke style cabinet mounted trunnion? Can someone point me to a link which would explain why that is an important feature ?

How does this saw compare to the Jet unit? Which one would be better ?

I'm not familiar with Steel City - is it a reliable and reputable brand? or a Chinese disposable tool?

Thanks


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## knotscott (Feb 27, 2009)

The 22124 has a better fence, better trunnion system, a better drive train, has a full enclosure, weighs about 125# more, and is a hybrid design that takes up less space….it also has 44" cast iron surface vs 40". Both can be setup to perform well, but the 22124 has more advantages IMHO.

The Jet looks a lot like this one underneath:









Here's the 22124:


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## crank49 (Apr 7, 2010)

Steel City is a reputable brand. I think they used to make the better saws sold under the Ridgid brand, like the 4511.
As far as Chinese tools go, you can't just lump them all together and say they are all junk. Almost ALL new table saws are made in China or Taiwan, including Powermatic, Jet, Delta (except for the Unisaw), Rikon, General, Steel City, and the list goes on and on.


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## Hotpuppy (Aug 14, 2013)

I found this on eBay… http://www.ebay.com/itm/DELTA-UNISAW-UNIFENCE-TABLE-SAW-34-806-10-TILTING-ARBOR-SAW-TILT-/350824145144?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item51aebfa0f8

It looks to me like pieces of the saw are missing…. fence rails and maybe the table extension. The seller is willing to negotiate a bit, but I'm unsure if this is something that is a deal breaker.

Any thoughts from Unisaw gurus?


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## knotscott (Feb 27, 2009)

Looks to be 3 phase, which adds more cost and complexity unless you're wired for industrial stuff.


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## kimosawboy (Apr 7, 2010)

The Ebay one is not worth it, if you look around you can find a Unisaw(if thats what you want) for 500 or less.
http://for-sale.yakaz.com/unisaw-on#cc=US&cname=Type&gid=YAjPhT&il=en&match=msg&rs=1&s=10&ts=1376672688&univ=miscellaneous&what=unisaw%20on
http://for-sale.yakaz.com/unisaw-on#lo=4&docid=0008oc56p3s5er2i
http://kansas.freetoolshopper.com/tools/unisaw-delta.html
http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=218&ad=24148939

Dont forget to check http://www.govliquidation.com/


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## dschlic1 (Jan 3, 2013)

Another hint, use a service call searchtempest to search craigslist for surrounding areas. 200~300 miles is not all that far to go to get a good deal on a $500 piece of equipment.


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## Hotpuppy (Aug 14, 2013)

I wanted to follow up and thank everyone for the advice. I wound up waiting patiently and found a 1950 Unisaw with a Biesemeyer Fence and Biesemeyer blade guard for $420 locally. 3HP, 3 phase. I picked it up a couple of weeks ago and built a dolly for it today. 









It needs some TLC, but it will come together nicely. I'm going to build an extension table on the right with a router insert into it. I'll then build a separate mobile outfeed table that I can "dock" when needed and put away when convenient.


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## JonHitThingWithRock (Sep 7, 2013)

I think you'll be way happier with that than you would have with the ridgid


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## Hotpuppy (Aug 14, 2013)

Hey guys, I finally have my extension table and saw dolly built. 

I mounted the Frankenmeyer (part DIY part Beisemeyer) fence to the table… the angle iron is clearly a hack job, but it's the right spec, and the 2×3 steel component and actual fence look OEM.

I am adjusting the fence… and I'd like some guidance.

The Beisemeyer manual says the fence should be parallel to the miter slots. I have it adjusted to what I think is parallel (by feel). I moved it closer to the blade and used my digital micrometer  to check it. I'm .03 " (3 hundreths) off with the near side being closest and the far side being wider. I think this is pretty close to perfect and slightly safer than an exactly parallel blade. While I am not afraid of the saw, I like my fingers and I respect the power that a 3 hp motor can produce. I am mostly concerned with kickback.

What is "normal" and "reasonable" for a professional cabinet shop or a serious hobbyist?

My other hobby is machining and welding, so I'm accustomed to working in thousands and ten-thousands. lol. I laugh because I don't think wood holds dimensions that close… but everything I have read suggests that you won't get a square project if you don't start with a square piece of wood. 









This is the saw with the extension table yesterday…. i reused a piece of worksurface I had. had to route channels in it to accomodate a field modification to the plans… 









Here is how close I got the table and saw surface:









the last image was taken just now. It's coming together nicely.








I'm thinking about putting a router insert into that work surface where the laptop is sitting.


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## knotscott (Feb 27, 2009)

That mobile base is a major piece of hardware! Congrats on the saw…..great setup!


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## Hotpuppy (Aug 14, 2013)

Thank you! I'm very happy with it. I was not happy with the way the Biesemeyer fence was mounted so I took it off and changed it from 3 holes to 4. Tapped them with fresh 1/4-20 holes and then drilled matching holes in the angle iron. I moved it left so I can use both sides of the table if I want to. I can put the fence about 7.5" to the left of the blade and 32.5" to the right. If that becomes an issue I'll put a new piece of 2×3 steel in. But I think this will handle most of what I need to make for now. Where it was mounted before I could only get to within 3 or 4 inches of the blade.


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## Hotpuppy (Aug 14, 2013)

I need to make a handle/knob for the fence…. I could buy one, but that would take the charm out of it. I have access to a lathe.  I'm planning to make a 2" knob out of steel to go on the end of the lever for the fence. Steel so it won't have galvanic corrosion. the threads on the handle are 3/8-16.


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## jonah (May 15, 2009)

To answer your earlier question about the fence: three hundredths is too far out of square for me. Pick up a cheap dial indicator from harbor freight or online and build yourself a little jig for it that rides in the miter slot with a minimum of slop. Using something like that, you can get to within a few thousandths of perfectly parallel. Also be sure to square the blade with the miter slots - that is crucial too. You can use the same jig for that operation.


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## toolie (Mar 16, 2011)

+1 on the .03 not being accurate enough. The unisaw I had and sold like yours was 0.001 away from the R/S miter slot, measured at the outfeed side of the blade. The cabinet mounted trunnions should make aligning the blade to the R/S miter slot relatively easy. The fence can then be aligned to the same miter slot with the same relative ease. What's toed out to the right of the blade is toed in to the left of the blade, so I go for parallel. Just my $.02.


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## Hotpuppy (Aug 14, 2013)

I have not checked the blade to miter slot… I'll do that later. I apologize if I was confusing, in my earlier post I was referrring to the blade to fence relationship.

I wound up re-mounting the fence because I didn't like where it was at. It's now in the thousands range. Basically the fence is not smooth enough to get a reliable reading at both ends of the blade. I will have to think on how to tram the blade to the slot and the fence to the slot. Tramming is the term used to align the cutting tool to the work surface in metalworking. The problem I see on the table saw is that when you get to .00x or .000x you are in the range of very tiny and extremely tiny. There isn't a precision place to make the measurement from that can be moved. The miter gauge itself will have a few thousandths of slop.

It's an interesting challenge….. but bottom line is that this saw is way more accurate than my trusty old Ryobi Portable Wonder. It's extremely smooth, although it's odd that the motor takes a few seconds to come up to speed and has very low starting torque. I assume it's the motor type.

I built a cart for my welder last night…. next up is building an infeed/outfeed table and stands for my bench 
tools.









Base is made from 11ga 4 inch square tube and the shelf is made from 2.5inch 14ga square tube. Still needs a few details, cord management, and paint.


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## DeltaDaddy (Nov 15, 2013)

Great refurb on the saw. you will be much happier with this saw than a rigid. much sturdier and can handle bigger material.


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## Grandpa (Jan 28, 2011)

This is a great looking shop. Your metal working should put you ahead of the game. I got a chuckle when I read that you had those tools also. I am an Industrial Arts person. I got my degree back when we still had those classes in our high schools. I college the instructors talked about the metal shop people and the wood working people. They could usually tell what you took first because you worked that way forever. If you took metal working classes first you learned to work + or - .002 in our shop. When you went to the wood shop for those classes you still tried to hold that tolerance. If you took wood working first then you would learn to hold 1/32" maybe…...and that didn't cut it in the metal shop. I have found this to be true later also. My machinist friend turned carpenter and cabinet maker built better wood products than most because he learned to work in .001" first. you will do well. Welding…..is a different matter.


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## Hotpuppy (Aug 14, 2013)

Thank you.

I am a fan of what I would jokingly refer to as "shaker welding"... function over form. I deliberately did not close in the bottom frame for two reasons.
1) It allows me to pick up the welders with my forklift and put them away…. I am planning to rebuild my shop loft so that it can support more weight and in the back of the shop. I will then put the tools that I don't use very often up in the loft where they are out of the way.










2) My metal bandsaw cannot cut a 4" square miter and I know better than to try and fab that by hand…

As much out of laziness as anything else I did the same on the upper shelf. The open ends will be useful for storing various things. This cart has been on the project list for a while.


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## toolie (Mar 16, 2011)

*I was referrring to the blade to fence relationship.*

the blade to fence relationship is a byproduct of the two essential alignments for TSs: blade to miter slot and fence to the same miter slot. kind of an a=b, b=c, then a=c. at least that's the way every WW article on that topic seems to address it.


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## Hotpuppy (Aug 14, 2013)

That makes sense…. I found it difficult to get a good reading on the relationship between the miter slot and wooden side of the fence so I was measuring from blade to fence. I have not made a jig or purchased one for alignment.

My next project is infeed and outfeed tables, stands/carts for my bench tools and a dust collector. I have a 1.5HP Cincinatti Fan fume extractor that I am going to repurpose as a dust collector. Basically I am adding a trash can separator and a 1 micron bag to the appropriate sides of it. Can't say how it would compare to a commercial unit, but I had a cheap dust blower before I got the cincinatti unit. The dust blower made a ton of racket and died after a few months. It had some fantasy numbers on it for air movement… that were only applicable in a hurricane with it pointed into the prevailing wind. The CF unit at least will have some lab backed numbers that say it can serve as a moveable dust collector.


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