# question on rough cut lumber.



## pallystu (Dec 30, 2013)

Hello Im a new wood worker and I have only used the s4s lumber from box stores and decided to try and find a real lumber supplier so I can work with more woods and try to get a better deal. I found a lumber supply company near me but they only sell rough cut lumber by the board foot in random lengths and widths. I understand how the board foot measurement works but I have never worked with rough cut lumber before. Since I am pampered with the use of the expensive s4s select lumber is that any thing I need to know about using rough cut lumber? I hear you have to joint it and plane it but well…since im new to wood working I don't have a jointer, a planer, or even a table saw. would I still be able to work with it? are the edges at least straight and 90 degree just un surfaced or is it 100% out of square? I can have the company surface all the sides for me and make it a true and square board but with the minimum charges it would be $50 for milling just for the two or three board feet that I would buy for my small projects. I don't know if this matters but It is a semi large retail store and not some one guy store selling lumber he harvested him self. Any help would be nice since im getting slightly tired of paying high prices for wood and not even being able to get it in any other thickness other than 3/4. 

Thank you guys ahead of time for the help!


----------



## jmartel (Jul 6, 2012)

Solution would be to buy a planer. Not the answer you were looking for, but it's the best way to do it. I've found that with careful enough selection from a lumber retailer, you can get away without needing a jointer.


----------



## CharlesA (Jun 24, 2013)

In the past 18 months I switched from BORG lumber to rough cut:
1) no, you can not count on it having straight edges or faces. The stuff I buy always has some curve or irregularity to the edges. Sometimes the faces are in pretty good shape, but they are still rough. 
2) So, milling is necessary. The easiest way is to have a jointer, and edge and face joint, then use a thickness planer and a table saw to get our four surfaces. 
4) there are other possibilities. I highly recommend you read Coarse, Medium, Fine for two reasons: a) it will teach you about what you're trying to accomplish with milling; b) it will show you how to use hand planes for parts (or all) of it. I'm not Mr. Hand Tools, but I've found this invaluable. I use a plane for edge jointing and for surface jointing if there is cupping or twisting of the boards.
5) with rough lumber, what is almost impossible to do without, as jmartel said, is a thickness planer. You have to get lumber to the proper thickness for your needs, and a planer makes that way, way easier.

Hope this is helpful.


----------



## pallystu (Dec 30, 2013)

I might be able to buy a planer at some point in time. Would a hand held power planer work to make boards parallel and square? Its a few hundred dollars cheaper so im kind of iffy on it.


----------



## jmartel (Jul 6, 2012)

A hand held power planer is basically the same as a hand plane. It takes a bunch of time, effort, and skill to pull off parallel and square faces on those. I'd get a used Dewalt or Makita planer on craigslist before a handheld one.

It's possible to do with hand planes as well, but again will take time, effort, and skill to do it correctly.


----------



## CharlesA (Jun 24, 2013)

No, a handheld planer power planer does not work well for this purpose at all. I followed Schwarz's advice in C, M, F and got a Fore Plane, a Jointer Plane, and a smoothing plane, all used off of eBay or Craigslist-total cost $150. You can get a workable thickness planer for $250-400. But as someone told me, it is the only tool that will pay for itself since rough cut lumber is so much cheaper. Cheapest new or refurb planers I know of are the Steel City or Ridgid at about $299.

Depending on where you are, used ones can be had on CL.


----------



## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Thomas, stick with the big box lumber until you have the capability to joint and plane either using power or manual tools. Do a lot of reading in the interim. Youtube has some great milling videos.


----------



## pallystu (Dec 30, 2013)

all right then thanks guys! ill look around for some thickness planers on sale or used. Might end up saving me some cash in the long run any ways.


----------



## jmartel (Jul 6, 2012)

FYI, I had a very bad experience with the Rigid planers that typically go on sale for $300 or under. I wouldn't buy one.


----------



## BigDaddy2121 (Oct 19, 2013)

I am fairly new to woodworking as well, so take this for what it's worth….

Yes a hand planer, either powered or manual, would work to square both your edges and faces, but it is far more labor intensive and far less effective in ensuring you are square. I would actually recommend the hand planer for squaring surfaces anyway as you have to be very precise and that is harder to do with a power planer.

If you are choosing to work with rough lumber, you should really invest in both a jointer and a planer. Both of which are fairly pricey, but well worth the investment from a time and quality of work perspective.

Good luck to you man!


----------



## pallystu (Dec 30, 2013)

Is Rigid a brand name? Really If I did have the money to buy a planer I would have a choice between a Porter cable planer and a Dewalt planer. Is there any thing I need to look for?


----------



## CharlesA (Jun 24, 2013)

My Ridgid planer works great, but your mileage may vary. Outside of Dewalt's more expensive model, all the planers I have seen look like they came from the same assembly line.

Around here Borg lumber works out to about $7bf (red oak). I buy my rough sawn cherry, oak, walnut for $2-3bf. 100bf and I've paid for my planer.


----------



## pallystu (Dec 30, 2013)

Yeah you have a good point…I guess ill Skip buying a few small tools for a few months and pick up a planer and a jointer eventually as well. In the long run it will be better paying 1/2 the price for lumber. thank you guys you really cleared this up for me. honestly I thought rough sawn lumber was just not sanded down to a smooth finish xD

thanks for helping a newbie out!


----------



## BigDaddy2121 (Oct 19, 2013)

Yes, Rigid is a brand made by Emerson. It is primarily distributed at Home Depot. Keep in mind that a planer only helps you with the thickness of your wood after it is squared. If you put uneven wood in a planer, you are going to get a surface that is uneven. After you have squared one face and one edge, you are good to go with a planer.

You can square an edge pretty easily with a table saw and a jig (there was one on the LJ homepage today). Squaring the face is the hard part..


----------



## pallystu (Dec 30, 2013)

I thought if you planed one face flat and then turned it over and planed again the faces would be close to parallel and then you could do one edge with a straight edge and a circular saw then on the table saw. I don't know maybe this is an example of me being a machinist messing up my wood working logic lol.


----------



## jmartel (Jul 6, 2012)

BigDaddy: You can also square a face using a planer jig. Or using a router jig.


----------



## MT_Stringer (Jul 21, 2009)

I bought a used Jet 6 inch jointer off of Craigslist…and almost bought a Delta unisaw from the same guy. He buys and sells stuff from big auctions. A jointer is a nice tool to have.

I bought my planer new. It is a Dewalt DW734. I have used it a lot. I am just a hobbyist woodwworker. Some may say the tools are pricey but they probably never have bought any high end camera equipment. That is pricey stuff!

You asked about the rough lumber. That is the way it came from the saw mill - rough cut with the saws at the mill. Random width and length could result in waste which you would need to consider. A board that is sold as 6 inches wide may have a section near one end that tapers off to 4 - 4 1/2 inches…waste if you need the extra width.

Cutting you boards to the correct width will result in more waste. I guess you are beginning to see a pattern here, huh?

With the rough board you need a way to insure one flat side and one strait edge 90 deg to the flat side…that is where the jointer comes in. Then you can run the board thru the planer to get the other side flat. Last of all, run the board through the table saw to rip the remaining rough edge parallel with the one you flattened on the jointer.

Take a few minutes and watch the videos produced by custom cabinetmaker Kris Reynolds. His videos are easy to watch - no BS - easy to understand and follow. I have watched them over and over. I followed his workflow when I built the buffet for our dining room recently.

Good luck.
Mike


----------



## tefinn (Sep 23, 2011)

BigDaddy2121 - Emerson hasn't made Ridgid power tools since the early 2000's. Emerson owns Ridge Tools which produces professional plumbing tools. The Ridgid name is licensed to Techtronic Industries (One World Technologies)from Ridge Tools. TTI are the manufacturers of Ridgid power tools as well as Ryobi and Milwuakee.


----------



## bbc557ci (Sep 20, 2012)

If you decide to use rough cut lumber the best thing you can do is get:
Decent table saw with good fence + good blade
Decent thickness planer
Decent Jointer
(btw, the list will grow ;o)

or

continue to by s4s


----------



## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

I was hesitant about buying a planer but I found it to be worth the cost so I could use rough cut and resurface salvaged lumber of which I have a ton … well, almost a ton.


----------



## pallystu (Dec 30, 2013)

I think you all are right as I said before…it definitely seems to be worth it in the end. now its just waiting to save up to be able to get them  thank you all for your help you don't even know how helpful this was.


----------



## jtm (Dec 2, 2013)

If you have a lot of patience, you can get away with just a tablesaw and router.

Craigslist routinely has very serviceable older craftsman tablesaws for less than $100. These are made by Emerson (113.xxx series) in the U.S., and are real workhorses.

In addition to the tablesaw, you need to grab a router and a ~3/4" straight bit. This will allow you to make a router sled, which will enable you to plane the rough-cut lumber to a true flat surface. Sears routinely has these routers on sale for $75. Add another $25 for a bit.

So for less than $200, you'll be able to mill rough-cut lumber to perfectly true boards. Sure, it'll take more time than a planer/jointer/tablesaw, but it will definitely do the job.

Set up the router sled (tons of YouTube videos explain how to make one) to surface both faces of the board. Then make a straigtline rip jig out of nothing more than a $10 pine board from Home Depot and a few screws. Now you can rip both edges true and parallel.

For the record, I made my very first end grain cutting board using these techniques. Not very time efficient, but lots of fun nonetheless. There is a lot of satisfaction in taking a rough, cupped, twisted, curved board, and turning it into something perfectly straight and true for the very first time.


----------



## mojapitt (Dec 31, 2011)

Rough cut lumber requires a planer.

Also first rule of thumb when buying any lumber, never assume anything is straight.


----------



## Oldtool (May 27, 2012)

Thomas,

All advise given so far is good, but may not be applicable to your woodworking. You may not need to immediately purchase those expensive machines, because your projects (as described on your home page) seem to be on the smaller size of the spectrum, which wouldn't require a lot of stock preparation with hand planes, etc.
I would suggest you get one or two saw mill rough cut boards and work with them. As you do, you'll determine which aspects of stock prep you would prefer to do by machine. You've got nothing to loose this way, since saw mill boards can be as much as 1/3 the price of big box S4S pine.
As for hand tool techniques, you might enjoy watching the videos on these sites:

http://www.renaissancewoodworker.com/category/video/

http://logancabinetshoppe.com/podcast.php

http://m.video.pbs.org/program/woodwrights-shop/

If you find that working rough cut boards isn't for you, then you can invest in machines of your choosing. Either way, you are going to have fun while learning your preferred method of work.


----------



## Finn (May 26, 2010)

I agree a planer is needed when working with rough lumber. Gloves also. If you want thinner wood you will either waste a lot of wood or re-saw it with a band saw. The equipment list just keeps getting longer and longer huh? Maybe you need one of these:







!


----------



## hydro (Aug 9, 2013)

I think that we all have been where you are at one time or another. Since you basically have no tools to square up lumber you will need to address that before you start buying rough stock.

First, unless you are primarily interested in the concept of hand planing with hand tools, forget about the "Stanley #123" comments and buy yourself some power tools. If you want to work with the hand tools that's great but you will spend a LOT of time and effort trying to make a board square, flat, and parallel. Then you just have to do it all again on the next board.

Look at your budget. Do you want to buy new tools? If so, Grizzly is a good place to look. Their catalog will give options on several sizes of each tool and the reviews for quality and service are consistently good. If you choose to go used, look on Craigslist. The Sears tool line is fairly good quality for a beginner and a table saw can be had for about $100, and a 6" jointer for about $100. You do not need a wider jointer, particularly if you are limited on space. Used "Lunchbox" type portable planers are often available as well and can be had for $100-$250.

With the jointer, planer, and table saw, you can then create straight edges, plane to consistent thicknesses, and cut edges parallel. That is the basis of all secondary operations.


----------



## wseand (Jan 27, 2010)

www.woodworkingonline.com has about 50 videos about woodworking. This video is the best I have found to teach squaring rough stock.  HERE

If you search the site there is many more podcasts you can download.


----------



## pallystu (Dec 30, 2013)

Well I talked to the lumber supplier and they said they can rip one edge and surface two sides for me at the store. This will make it so I don't need the planer and the jointer but will add $17 to the total cost of lumber up to 100 board feet and at that point they will charge $0.17 per board foot for the service. In the mean while It still reduces the cost of lumber a bit. Im going to pick up a jointer and a planner at some point in time but till then I can just pay them to rip an edge and surface the two sides. Thanks guys


----------



## hydro (Aug 9, 2013)

Sounds like you have a workable solution!


----------



## dschlic1 (Jan 3, 2013)

An interesting idea is to use a planer sled with a thickness planer. This will allow you to flatten one large side of the board. Then run it through again on the other side and you have two flat parallel sides. Then use one of the afore mentioned straight cutting jigs for a table saw and you have a perfect S4S board using just a planer and a table saw. No joiner is needed.


----------



## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

The wider the board the more you will loose to flatten it out. If you have a 12" wide board that is 1" thick and it has a fairly gentle bow from side to side - and it is dry, to flatten it out, you could easily loose 1/2 of its thickness. If you rip the board at the middle of the arch, you can straighten it and loose very little to flatten out both pieces.


----------



## pintodeluxe (Sep 12, 2010)

Yes, rough cut lumber requires a jointer and planer to surface. However, in my opinion so does retail S4S lumber. I frequently re-joint an edge that is no longer straight. Warped or crooked lumber is not safe to cut on the tablesaw, so it must be flattened on 3 sides first.

Even with the initial tool investment, you will quickly save money buying rough lumber.


----------



## brtech (May 26, 2010)

Tomas, a jointer makes a one side flat. It has a fence that you can use to make an adjacent edge flat and square to the flat surface. A planer makes the opposite surface flat and parallel to a flat surface. So, the usual sequence is that you use a jointer to flatten one side, and again to square and flatten one edge. Then you use the planer to get the opposite face flat and parallel to the first face. Then you use your table saw to get the other edge flat, and uniform width of the board. That's why the recommended tool set is both a jointer and a planer.

You can manage to do this with just a planer using a sled and a table saw if the board has one decent edge. You use the sled to hold one face of the board steady while running it through the planer. That will make the opposite edge flat, but not parallel to the bottom face that is on the sled. Then you take the board off the sled and run it flat side down back through the planer to make the opposite face flat and parallel to the other face. Then you use the table saw running the reasonably flat edge on the fence to get a really flat and square edge, and then flip it around and cut the other edge flat, square and uniform width.

You can't use the jointer to make the opposite face parallel to the first face. It only has a 90 degree fence. So you can process rough lumber with just a planer and a sled, but you can't do it with just a jointer.

I got a used Rigid planer which works well for me. YMMV. CL is your friend with jointers and planers. The lunch box planers are okay when starting out, but I think you want a cabinet mounted jointer as your first one - the bench mounted ones are just too small. If the tool cuts well, the tables are flat (bring a good straight edge), and there are no funny sounds, then you probably are okay with a used purchase. $200 (I think I paid $175 for the Rigid planer and $225 for a Jet jointer), and they are both great tools.


----------



## nicholasrhall (Aug 19, 2012)

If you're going to do much woodworking, you'll want a planer and jointer sooner rather than later. Wood is not like steel. It doesn't stay straight.

If you rip a 12" wide board in half, you will generally find that there is not a single square edge left on either board the next morning. Wood is constantly changing, and reacting to changes in counter forces. Think of a board like it's composed of a billion springs and a billion hydraulic cylinders, programmed by 50 years of wind, slope, and battles for sunlight.

Wood reaches a new equilibrium every time you cut it. A planer and jointer let's you bring it back to square when it bows, crooks, cups or twists after being cut from a larger board into several smaller boards.

Just my 2 cents. Btw, having the lumbermill square 2 sides is a good short term solution as long as your building small, simple pieces.. It should allow you to save a pile of money vs finished lumber at the Borg. Put the cash you're saving in a cookie jar and scour craigslist for good deals on used planers and jointers!


----------



## pallystu (Dec 30, 2013)

once more you guys have not disappointed me  I love this forum.


----------



## bold1 (May 5, 2013)

Tom, How wide are most of your finished projects? For years I got away with a large hand plane doing 5" and narrower boards and a cheater box. For those that are unfamiliar, a cheater box is a wider piece of smooth material with rub rails on both sides for the plane shoe to ride on. You plane with the shoe lead and toe on the rub rail at approx. a 45 degree. By laying different thickness under the rough board you control the thickness you want. For someone getting started on a tight budget some of the old tricks are hard to beat. Whatever you decide, have fun.


----------



## diverlloyd (Apr 25, 2013)

Thomas watch some of Izzy Swan's videos on YouTube. He has jigs to do everything on a table saw. I use my table saw for just about everything. Why buy all the extra equipment when you can use the table saw and spend the money saved on wood or classes.


----------



## pallystu (Dec 30, 2013)

the width of the boards I use are normally well under the 4 inch range normally 2.5 inches in width but length can be from 3 inches up to around the 12 inch range.


----------



## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

The minimum board length of my 13" planer is 12". I would not use anything under 8" in a bench top jointer, 12" for a standalone jointer.

For pieces of that size, I would do by hand using a hand plane.


----------



## diverlloyd (Apr 25, 2013)

With your pieces being that small I would use the table saw and maybe build a surfacing sander. My poor tablesaw get a lot of use.


----------



## alohafromberkeley (Oct 26, 2011)

I have a friend who would buy "project packs" from on line dealers. Some boards were more of a "project" in themselves i.e.- they weren't s4s as advertised. But he found a few places that were more honest than others about their ready to go packs. Though they weren't cheap like buying rough, he could buy enough for cutting boards and small boxes for a decent price and he had quick presents to give to friends. All without a TS,BS, jointer or planer- he did have handtools- saws, planes, scrapers and clamps. Bell Forest was one place he used and liked. If you want I can ask him about other vendors- also, I have no connection to any seller.


----------



## bold1 (May 5, 2013)

Sounds like the easiest and cheapest way for you now would be the box, and a good hand plane. Small stock like you are using, run in a powered machine, can take as long to set up safely as it would take to plane by hand.


----------

