# What would you pay?



## madts (Dec 30, 2011)

I see a lot of posts on this site. Many have to do with pricing. " How much should I charge for this" is a common question. What if we all put a price on an project that we comment on in the project section. It is great for everybody to say " great job; looks cool etc." Lets put a price on the work, that you would pay for it if you needed it. I think that this would be more honest and also give some idea of what a piece of work is worth.

I do not comment on anything that I do not like.

Just an idea for some of the members that are trying to get into business. More power to them. I did that once and it was hard for the first couple of years.


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## RonInOhio (Jul 23, 2010)

Its difficult to put a price on many items woodworkers post in here. I see where you are coming though. Interesting
thought/suggestion.

Some of the workbenches people build are amazing. It would cost thousands to get a comparable bench via retail. Same goes for some of the furniture and craft items.

There are those who build for the love of the hobby, and some are building heirloom quality projects with no intention of selling. You just cannot put a price on those things in my opinion.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

Problem question I think.

If you want to get paid for woodworking at a level
that is like having a decent job, you need to sell
the work to people who make significantly more 
money than you want to make.

It's the disposable income factor.

Ok?

Recently I asked a guy on the projects pages how
much a piece sold for. I wanted to know because
I know the style and I knew it would be a lot of
labor (esp. sanding) and not insignificant lumber
costs to build the piece. He didn't really answer 
my question and I suspect he was underpaid in
the sale, but he did get a check and a great set 
of portfolio shots.

... and that is a sort of compensation that matters
if your gig is original furniture pieces and you want 
to get your portfolio filled out. Unfortunately,
underpricing labor-intensive work in order to sell
it and move on to the next build can lead to 
financial problems for the builder.

Onward.

.

.

Wait for it….

.

.

Affluent people have more money.

That's it.


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## renners (Apr 9, 2010)

Too many variables for it to work. One guy on his own with a home workshop and no overheads can do a job for labour + materials, enter the bigger boys, rent, insurance, wages, leases to pay etc, it's a different kettle of fish altogether. Maybe including hours spent on a project would give a better idea of what's involved. Even then, I don't think there'd be a great take up on it, no-one wants to be thought slow and it doesn't matter how long something took to do if you are doing it for the love of doing it and just enjoy pottering around doing it. Where money is concerned, it depends on what part of the world you live in too.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

this is a very awkward question to answer, given all the variables of the WW concerned, and I feel that only the Professional WW who make a living from WW can answer.


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## Buckethead (Apr 14, 2013)

Value is subjective. Money is currency, which is constantly re-valued.

It's almost a pointless question.

The real question: what are my talents and efforts worth?

I doubt you can learn a satisfactory answer to that in reality, let alone from a forum.

I suppose we could all get together and collude about pricing, set a standard and attempt to control pricing. Centralization is usually a bad idea with unintended consequences.

I have heard it posited that most people spend 80% of their working time doing what earns them 20% of their money. Successful business people learn to focus on what earns them 80% of their money.

I'm thinking sales is a more valuable service than woodworking labor. Shoot the messenger.


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## tncraftsman (Oct 21, 2009)

What would I pay? As a consumer… I want to pay as little as possible. As a maker what would I charge?... as much as possible. Somewhere in between I need to manage my raw materials and overhead to sell a piece at a price the market will bear while making a profit.

My unscientific research says that joe consumer doesn't want to pay much more than $500 for custom pieces… including shipping. Source: custommade.com job board.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

I recently visited an Amish Furniture Store and was awakened to the cost of quality pieces. It sure made me re-think what each of my furniture projects could fetch, if I ever decided to sell. Needless to say, I am currently only interested in building for myself as a hobbiest.


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## redSLED (Mar 21, 2013)

Sales and Marketing 101 - Retail Pricing (Supply and Demand Economics):

If you keep raising the price of something that people are buying to a point where people are considering no longer buying it - that is the ideal retail price. Whether its household goods, fashion or $500 shovels being sold during the Yukon gold rush.


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## Earlextech (Jan 13, 2011)

Something I learned early on in my custom cabinet career. Pricing has no reality. All of these formulas are great for the bean counters. But if you think you can survive by making a 10%, 20% or 30% profit, you are wrong. You will also be shocked when you try to sell through a retail outlet. They will take your price and double it. First it will piss you off that they will actually make more profit than you. Then you will wonder why you can't sell for that inflated price. I'm here to tell you, you can!

If you ever look at a piece and decide it's just not worth such and such money. That thought is only good in your head. Someone else, that earns a whole lot more than you, will look at the same piece and think, Wow, that's cheap! See - No Reality!

The way it works here in our capitalistic society is this - You get what you can and try not to leave anything on the table.


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## jusfine (May 22, 2010)

I totally agree with Sam's post above.

Some people are shocked when they learn our construction company does 3 to 5 million dollar renovations on some of our client's homes (recently completed one reno closer to 8), when they struggle to buy a $250,000 home.

No reality is right, Sam!

I am not in the same ballpark or even in the cheap seats when it comes to comparison of my total home value to their reno, yet if I had the wealth, I would see things differently too.


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## RussellAP (Feb 21, 2012)

I don't usually tell what an item sold for, but I sometimes list my cost for others who want to build the project. I've sold my turnings as high as 150$ and Adirondacks go for around 125-175$ around here.


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## madts (Dec 30, 2011)

I agree with the Adirondack prices. $175 using cypress 4 quarter lumber and stainless screws, nuts and bolts. See that was easy. Now everybody knows what to expect from a quality Adirondack chair.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

If you want to get premium prices, your execution has
to be appear to be flawless.

Finishing skills, especially at faux painting, antiquing, 
gilding and things like that can boost the perceived
value of an otherwise unremarkable piece.

You can buy legs and skirts online and make tables 
and nobody will pay a whole lot for them, but if
you put some fancy inlay in there or do a faux
finish that looks like whatever's hot in Architectural
Digest right now, people will want it and will pay
for it.

People with extra money do spend it on BLING. Not
everybody with money, and certainly not everyone
has the same taste in bling, but the appetite to 
consume and impress is embedded in capitalistic
culture.


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## hoosier0311 (Nov 8, 2012)

I dont sell alot of things, but I do make a few extra frogskins once in a while. If somebody asks me if I can build something, we talk about price. whatever we agree upon is the actual value from my perspective. i do not make a living at it, I would probabaly get into unit cost calculations and such if I did.


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## firefighterontheside (Apr 26, 2013)

I had someone ask me to build a nightstand to match one that they already had and so I did. It was made out of aspen. I charged them 220 and they could not believe it was not more. I then posted a picture of it on Facebook. One of my "friends" said she wanted 2 and that the same price was fine. She is not my friend anymore and I still have the night stands. I have tried to sell them on Craigslist with no luck. Currently they are on there for 200. It just depends on what someone wants as to how much a thing is worth. I think they're worth what I charged because I know how much time I had in them, but someone else looks at them and the other night stands that are $50 and says that guys crazy and they're not even finished. It boils down to finding the right person who agrees with you as to what something is worth. With that being said, it would be interesting to hear what someone thinks something is worth, especially since









I'm not selling to you all.


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## RonInOhio (Jul 23, 2010)

Though certainly there are differences in artists and woodworkers, a particular well known artist's painting will obviously fetch a lot more, than a superior work by a relatively unknown artists.

Name recognition and reputation play into it. Building a reputation could take years in the hand-made furntiture business. Same with many of the famous artists. Many were poor and relativly unknown in their lifetimes. Only to achieve fame years after they passed.

But that doesn't mean a relatively obscure talented woodworker cannot fetch decent compensation now for what they build. But usually you need to build a portfolio , establish some contacts, pound the pavement and do the due
diligence.

There are several things at play that take different skill-sets. Business and Marketing acumen, and having woodworking talent . They have little in common. If you are lucky enough to be good at both you can do well. I think most who view woodworking as a hobby view the enjoyment they get from it as compensation enough. Anything they sell that helps cover costs and perhaps a new tool is just icing on the cake.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

@firefighterontheside: What made the deal for the two nightstands fall through? (And I guess this is a good argument for getting a materials deposit before you start.)

As to pricing in general, I see three very different ways of looking at it:

1. If you are purposefully setting out to build things to sell at a profit, you must value your work accordingly. Figure materials, how much per hour you want to earn for your time, and the cost of any overhead associated with your particular mode of operation. Coming up with a price is relatively straightforward.

2. It's a different situation if you are a hobbyist, building things for the fun of it, and just looking to pay your expenses. I won't take an order to build something for somebody unless it is a project I really feel like doing. And if that is the case, I'm happy just to get my expenses out of it. Likewise, if I make a decorative box for the sheer enjoyment of the work, and that box is then just sitting on my shelf collecting dust when a friend inquires about purchasing it from me, I'm happy to get my materials cost back.

3. The third situation is the hardest to put a price on, and that's when the item has a perceived artistic value. When you throw creativity and uniqueness into the mix, all bets are off. One can look around to see what similar objects are selling for, but ultimately it is up to the artist to place a value on his or her creation, then put it up for sale and see if anyone agrees.

So, madts, to get back to your original post, it's an interesting idea but I think there are just too many variables involved for it to be practical.


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## madts (Dec 30, 2011)

Charlie. These posts I am referring to are the ones that specifically ask what a thing is worth. If we all put a price on it, what you, I and others think it should be it would give that person some idea on how to price. I know that the prices will vary all over the place but an average could be use as an indicator.,


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## DocSavage45 (Aug 14, 2010)

Good stuff here and there is a blog which just came out that is well done

http://lumberjocks.com/huff/blog/36275

Huff is very concise about this.


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## JGM0658 (Aug 16, 2011)

Ok, I am finally going to say it as this pricing and "how do I sell my xxxx" keeps popping up all the time. Build whatever you like to build, depending on the size, about 5 to 10 showroom pieces. The, stop buying tools, lumber, etc and invest on a retail space (rent or own). 
Having a retail space transfer the "power" from the consumer to you. If you become a good sales person, then the clients will come. Now, don't expect to make a living from this for the first year (or two) but after that, you will be making enough to live comfortably. 
Here is where you have to make your research and where the "know your market" statement works. If you make $50 stuff, do not rent in Beverly Hills, you will go broke the first month.

I know, I know, your first thought is "this is all well and good, but where do I get the money to rent a retail space?" Here is where the planning part comes in, do not quit your day job, save as much as you can, buy the tool only if you have thought "gee it would be nice to have xxxx, it would have made the job faster" at least 3 or 4 times. This way you know you will use it. For example, I have yet to come up against a situation where I need a Nº 1 plane, why would I buy one?

In other words, instead of being at the mercy of the client, make the client be at your mercy. I assure you, no one haggles prices at Sacks Fifth Avenue.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

Some interior designers get married to cabinetmakers -
there's a reason for it. The designer does the selling
and the cabinetmaker keeps the income in the
family. Designers like to mark woodwork up 100%
which means they often want the cabinetmakers
to cut corners any way they can so the clients
won't bolt and run when the designer gives a price.

By marrying the cabinetmaker, the woodworking
quality standard can be set pretty high without being
unreasonably expensive for the clients and the household
thus prospers as a partnership.


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## renners (Apr 9, 2010)

I couldn't marry an interior designer, the ones I've met seem to be very high maintenance.


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## madts (Dec 30, 2011)

I must agree with renners. The ones I have met seem to be pretty highly strung.


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## Dal300 (Aug 4, 2011)

Interesting direction this is going.
On another thread about pricing cutting boards I was pretty much told that I was charging too much or would never sell any or was lieing because I felt my prices, even though high, were commensurate with the skill, labor, materials and overhead involved.

Most consider that making cutting boards with cut offs and ends means the piece can be sold cheaply. My thoughts are that no matter how much of the wood you have, it cost a finite amount and you need to get the maximum value out of it.

Even though I am not the best board maker in this group I consider my boards immensely superior to those sold at Walmart of the same size for a lot less.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Selling woodworking products are subject to all of the details listed above plus the fact that some hobbyist sell their products at cost or below cost since they don't have to make a living at it ,this hurts the professional woodworker if you and the hobbyist are making the same products. Like as kids many wanted to be rock stars the same is true in woodworkers who want to go pro. The talented woodworker has many other task before him/her to be a successful professional wood worker besides the task of making a good and unique product(and that's a very big item by itself). The list of things you need to know and research include: knowing your market,targeting your market or customer,cost annalists(knowing what it cost to be in business), understanding advertising(including if you should advertise at all) ,how and where to shop for material, how to give great customer service and not let customers take advantage of you. The list goes on and on. Failing in one area of being in business can be your down fall. How many of the kids you knew in high school actually became rock stars ? My guess is none,the same is true in woodworking. If you think about it in the United states there only a few pro woodworkers who design and build what they want and make a comfortable living.Many of us work for what you can make as office worker or rough carpenter makes. I get PMs from LJ members all the time that I tell them this , they response to this by saying at least they get to do what they want and follow their passion ,I'm afraid this is not really true because if your fortunate enough to get profitable work, your making what the customers wants not what you want. I many times tell folks not to mess up a great hobby by making it your business.


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## Dal300 (Aug 4, 2011)

+1 Amen Jim!

Right now I am focusing on one item. It is the best item that it can be. I put it out for sale for what it is worth to *ME*, if it sells, great, I am vindicated. If it doesn't sell in a timely fashion, I know it will eventually sell. Since I have another income, I don't worry.

I also make puzzles and toys but they are not professional grade in my opinion so I cannot sell with my branding or at my price.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

*a1Jim:* "... I many times tell folks not to mess up a great hobby by making it your business…"

Boy, isn't that the truth! And that is true no matter what the hobby is/was. Once you(the proverbial you) decide to retire from that 40-60hr work-a-day world why on earth would they want to keep that pace, workload, and stress as they retire? Just saying…


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

+1 Jim.

I have three major hobbies which bring me great joy: woodworking, playing/writing music, and photography. Over the years, many people have suggested that I should go professional in one of those, and my response is always the same. I'm not about to take something fun and turn it into *work*!


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## RussellAP (Feb 21, 2012)

I think getting paid is great. The way I've gone about it is to make something, stick it in my front yard with a for sale sign and wait. Usually on the weekends I get multiple people to stop, but most seem interested in my price for other things. I need to come up with a price my customers and I can live with, so I tell them 175 per chair and there are discounts of 20-30% for multiple chairs or table, bench, what have you. 
I'd have had more business if I had not decided to quit the adirondack business. Last year was dismal for sales, but this year things are picking up quite nicely. 
I say just make something and stick it out front with a sign.


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## madts (Dec 30, 2011)

One thing that I have learnt is not to do a paying job for family and friends. For them I would rather just give it away. That way they cant refuse to pay when it does not exactly match their expectations. Also I dont have to give family discounts. One thing that really chapped my behind, when I was in business, was when the Church came by and wanted it for free, or with a huge God discount. These guy do not pay taxes and want stuff for free.
My rant is over.
Peace.


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## RonInOhio (Jul 23, 2010)

No need to politicize the topic. Sometimes donating time and talent to organizations like churches, bring in additional 
sales down the road, and more exposure for you and your work.


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## madts (Dec 30, 2011)

Ron: I brought religion, not politics, into the thread because I started it , and just stating my experiences.


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## RonInOhio (Jul 23, 2010)

Well without getting too crazy over it. Politicizing ,is by definition bringing any hot-button
issue into a conversation. No big deal to me really.

You obviously have some pretty strong thoughts along those lines by your signature.

Maybe if these are your thoughts the thread should have been an off-topic. Because I don't
typically read or comment in most off topic threads for this very reason.

Maybe I'm making a big deal over nothing. Just my 2 cents. Its raining and storming like crazy here
and I'd rather be working on the shop. Sorry, rant over.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)




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## DocSavage45 (Aug 14, 2010)

Re: What would I pay for it? A comment made by a well known twin cities woodworker who knows his market. "Tom, I couldn't afford to buy what I make." LOL!

As far as hobby and professional. James Krenov who always had a passion for wood and the ability to write about it, called himself an amateur, which meat that he would always keep his feeling and passion for the wood.

I hope we all keep our passion. Even if other things go awry.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

+10 for Tom


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## DocSavage45 (Aug 14, 2010)




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