# Please Read: Politics & Religion Rules Update



## NathanW (Mar 11, 2008)

LumberJocks.com has always run under a set of posting rules that require users to treat each other with respect and to *"play nice*". Typically this isn't a problem and users are helpful and kind to each other. The one area that does see problems though is the off topic / "non-shop talk" forum. This area is full of people fighting, calling each other names, and people completely disregarding our posting rules. Well… today that stops.

The temptation was to close down the entire non-shop talk area because of all the problems it causes. But the closer we looked the more we saw that the topics that were causing most of the problems were the ones where people were discussing Politics and Religion. These are sensitive issues that are rarely solved online and often bring out the worst in people. Because of this fact and because of the number of complaints we've had about these topics Martin, Debbie and I have decided to ban political and religious debates from the site. While some users get a kick out of the topics they are not what this site is about and cause to many problems to be allowed.

We've added the following to our posting rules:

Because of their divisive nature, political and religious debates, and thus postings, are prohibited at LumberJocks.com. Please refrain from starting or taking part in such discussions.

We will be closing political threads (a new feature) as we see them and ask that you don't start any new ones or bump any old ones.

*A NOTE ABOUT RELIGIOUS PROJECTS:* We want to make sure it's clear that while we are banning political and religious debates from the site WE ARE NOT BANNING RELIGIOUS PROJECTS. You are free to create them and post them. Comments on these projects should be about woodworking though and not used as an area for debate.

*A COUPLE OF MORE NOTES:* There are a few things that need to change around here besides the Politics and Religion. There are a hand full of people who like to abuse others. Most of them point their finger at each other when you call them out on it and claim they are innocent. I think we are done with these antics and you need to either start treating each other with respect or expect your account to be banned soon.

On that note let me throw out a suggestion. If you have a specific problem with a specific person send that person an PM or ignore them. Please do not call them out in a thread about them or tell the world who you have blocked and why. All this does is cause problems.

I'm sure there is more but I wanted to make sure everyone was aware of what was going on. You are welcome to add your comments below but we have made up our mind on the Politics and Religion debates and I'm sorry to say we wont be changing them.

Thanks.


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## americanwoodworker (Nov 26, 2011)

Although I disagree with your move, I cannot blame you for it. I still like the site and will continue to visit.


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## KnickKnack (Aug 20, 2008)

Good call.
It's something of a shame these things can no longer be discussed, but, given *the way* they were often being "discussed", I'm behind you 100% in this decision.

As an adjunct to this, perhaps everyone should have their slates wiped clean - how about *you* clear everyone's block list, or, better yet, get rid of the feature entirely?


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

What happens to people who have stolen other members' identity and making posts that appear to be those of the victim?

It results in postings by the Real person as well as the Phony one which, at times, are hard to tell the Real vs the Phony.


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## bunkie (Oct 13, 2009)

I have mixed feelings about this as I enjoy a good debate. Having said that, as I have said several times, this is your site and you make the rules and I respect that.

I won't miss the rancor, the endless linking to outside websites and the personal attacks so, on balance, this is a good move.

That leaves only the SawStop as a third rail ;-)


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## BrandonW (Apr 27, 2010)

I think this is for the best since there has been so much negativity floating around those topics. Here's to a healthier Lumberjocks community!


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## NathanW (Mar 11, 2008)

*KnickKnack* People block others for all sorts of reasons. I don't want to assume it's just about Politics and Religion so I think I'll let people clean their own lists. I don't think those lists are problems until people start making them public. I appreciate the feedback and support though.

*Joe Lyddon* That's a real problem and I need to talk to Martin about the idea of being able to change your name and the problems it causes. I will say this though, someone doing that to cause problems in the future probably wont be around long.


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## ClayandNancy (Feb 22, 2010)

Thanks Nathan for your actions. Sorry times when we have to do things like this because of a few. Thanks again, still the best woodworking site out there.


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## RetiredCoastie (Sep 7, 2009)

It's a shame that you've had to take these measures but given the circumstances I believe it's completely warranted. It's always the case when a few immature people can't be respectful and cause the majority to lose out. I guess I have two questions. Why not just ban the ones that can't be respectful and leave the forum untouched? The other question would be, If you are banning Politics and Religion from the OFF TOPIC forum will it be changed back to where you don't have to take special steps to view the latest topics? Thanks for listening to those that have voiced there concerns!


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## AKSteve (Feb 4, 2012)

I really like alot of the people here but I really can't stand their politics. It's better I don't know there affiliation and know them as Talented woodworkers! so Thank you for your Decision.


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## NathanW (Mar 11, 2008)

*RetiredCoastie* It's more than just a few trouble makers. Politics and Religion seems to bring out the worst in everyone and people lose respect for each other. It's funny that *AKSteve* made his comment right after yours because it reflects the way a lot of people think. Good people turn bad, people lose respect for each other, and in the end it's more trouble than it's worth. 
I'll also add this. If you ban the trouble makers but leave the topics open the trouble makers just come back under a new name.


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## wiswood2 (Apr 12, 2008)

Way to go guy .
Chuck


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## jdmaher (May 4, 2011)

Thanks for making this change.

I really enjoy woodworking, and in recent years my enjoyment has been growing. That's partially due to this website. But the site was becoming a "hostile environment".

While I tried to avoid the animosity, both topics and individuals, sometimes I can't avoid being exposed to it. That ain't what I want. In the 60's I'd mutter "you're bringing me down, man".

And the nastiness was escalating. I began to wonder if maybe it was time to withdraw from the site - for the sake of serenity.

I hope all members try to comply with the intent of these changes, and find a way to be nice to each other. I'm getting older and I find I no longer have much time for rancor.

Please.


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## nwbusa (Feb 21, 2012)

Hi Nathan, have you considered modifying the block functionality so that it would continue to prevent users who are blocked from PMing the blocker, but allow them to respond to forum posts? Allowing users to decide who is or is not allowed to respond to a forum post seems a bit extreme.


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## richgreer (Dec 25, 2009)

Thank You! Thank You! Thank You!


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## redryder (Nov 28, 2009)

As per usual, those in charge punish everyone instead of dealing with the very few who don't *"play nice*".
This knee jerk reaction always happens when the other few don't like what they see or hear. 
I don't participate in these political and religious games but I would never attempt to silence those who do *"play nice".*
Thanks for the opportunity to provide some feedback….......................


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## joewilliams (Aug 1, 2012)

Other very functional and useful forums have similar rules as these new changes….I don't have a problem with them and will abide by them. Sometimes our focus can be distracted….a very dangerous thing with sharp tools. The new rules should help us avoid distractions on the forums and improve the overall "Lumberjocks" experience.


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

Nathan,

Thank you for taking a stand. This is the right thing to do, given the current situation.

I have two comments/questions:

Perhaps this should be in a different forum (site feedback?) instead of non_shop talk. The people who have chosen to hide off-topic titles might be interested in this information, especially since I suspect that the newly banned topics are often the very reason that they have the titles hidden.
Conversations have a way of migrating toward religion and politics. This is not specific to LJs, it's just the way things are. Do you have a plan to handle this? Maybe a new choice in the Flag menu?

Thanks again.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Nathan, although I wish we could all discuss any topic in a civil manner, I think you have chosen the best possible course of action given the circumstances. I would hate to lose the non-shop forum completely, and I think this is a reasonable compromise. Thank you.


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

I appreciate the actions taken here. Politics and religion are very volatile topics. Im looking forward to the "community" feeling once again without the religious / political divide. We've all gathered together to enjoy what we love not what we do not like.


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## RetiredCoastie (Sep 7, 2009)

Nathan thanks for responding to my question. I understand your reasons.

What about the "NON SHOP TALK TOPIC" title being hidden on the home page? People may not click to view someones post because of the way it was before the ban. There are many topics that are not inflammatory, political or religious in nature and don't fall into other categories, such as computer, photography etc etc. If people abuse the forum, then boot em!


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## KnickKnack (Aug 20, 2008)

Hi Nathan, have you considered modifying the block functionality so that it would continue to prevent users who are blocked from PMing the blocker, but allow them to respond to forum posts?

I'm very much in favour of this.
There are a couple of (entirely woodworking related) threads around, to which I could contribute, but am blocked from doing so. I guess I upset these people somewhere along the line, although I don't recall ever being rude. It worries me that some very experienced and knowledgeable people might be unable to post their advice and experiences on a woodworking thread just because, a few years ago perhaps, they said something political or religious to which someone took offence.
A somewhat fuller discussion can be found a while ago in this thread.

Given the apparently "more active" moderation (I'm reading a bit between the lines), I can't really see the need for JockA to prevent JockB commenting on a thread about, for example, someone needing help posting a new topic, or how best to apply an oil finish, or…..


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Thanks Nathan. Good move. I like it.


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## GMman (Apr 11, 2008)

Good move Nathan….thanks.
On Politics & Religion we have 2 main members if you could block those 2 that would solve a lot.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

There are members here who oddly proclaim innocence as victims of the Block feature, but it is a very useful tool when a person like myself who blogs, starts forum topics, or posts projects and gets nasty, unwarranted comments. For heaven's sake, nobody should have to endure mean-spirited comments when a project is posted. Or a humiliating wisecrack in a free-form thread about not having a driver bit in a rare unknown size. How about a blog on a future project where another member doubts my ability, then goes over the edge when said project is completed? *The block feature is perfect as it is, and those who complain about it should think about how their thoughtless words land on other people.*


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Nathan, when a topic is religious in nature but the proponents consider it science…how do you handle that?


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## KnickKnack (Aug 20, 2008)

poopiekat: There are members here who oddly proclaim innocence as victims of the Block feature… ...and those who complain about it should think about how their thoughtless words land on other people

I proclaim my innocence even though I do find myself, surprisingly, blocked by a few people (yes, me, hard to believe isn't it).
But, aside from that, and I know, Mr Kat, that you've been through some tough times here, which you ought not to have had to endure, I just don't think it's the right solution. People making "nasty, unwarranted comments", and "mean-spirited comments when a project is posted", should have their comments swiftly removed, and, imo, just be thrown off the site, perhaps with a final warning first.


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## nwbusa (Feb 21, 2012)

Poopiekat, this thread isn't about you and me, but since you're bringing up an interaction we had in a forum thread long ago, and because I can't PM this to you, let me just say that my "humiliating wisecrack" was not intended to be offensive or thoughtless. If it came across that way to you, then I sincerely apologize. I'm willing to let bygones be bygones-are you? If so, then thank you. If not, then these will my final words to you on the subject.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*Nathan:*

*"the trouble makers just come back under a new name."*

If the IPA was keyed to each account, enforcing One Account per IPA, wouldn't that stop that from happening?

Of course, family members, who are also Members here, might have a problem… (???)

Also, if anyone is ever Banned, I think it's the IPA that should be banned in order to stop "the Return under a new name". Yes?

Thank you.


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## RetiredCoastie (Sep 7, 2009)

Who pray tell is going to determine weather any religious / political topic is deemed to be scientific in nature. Science often times is just as inflammatory as politics and religion. Case in point "GLOBAL WARMING".

Joe IPs can be changed.


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Chrisstef, I agree man. We seem to have lost that lovin' feeling. Now it will return.


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Getting rid of science topics is almost like going back in time and banning them due to religious reasons. That's a thin line Coastie.


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Sadly Joe, IP addresses in a lot cases are dynamically assigned. You're looking at a long hard battle on that one…


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*Rules…*

What good are they if they cannot be enforced?

If the problem is not having enough Labor Power to enforce them, perhaps getting Volunteers to help enforce them would help?

It seems to me, that is the problem we have run into here…

Without being able to Enforce the Rules, we have to step backward and remove 100% because of the smaller % of bad people breaking the Rules cannot be controlled.

It seems to me that when Rules are set, procedures should also be set in order to enforce them.

Just my two bits worth…

*Question:*
Can Laws that effect all of us woodworkers, such as SawStop type laws, etc., *would those Subjects be against the rules to be talked about?*

Thank you.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

*One more word to the Mods here*: I probably would not be participating as an active member here, if not for the Block feature. Imagine if YOU had your Photobucket account hacked, photos of YOUR projects stolen and reposted under a dummy account, and then posting a link in a LJ thread declaring that your projects are FAKE and posting a link to the dummy account. Thankfully, that thread got removed. BUT.. more pics of mine were lifted from Photobucket and posted in a LJ forum thread entitled "Great Deals I found on eBay"!!! It too got tanked by the Mods. and that member suspended. Then, he found my discussion from an old local website, now defunct, about neighborhood snow removal, and posted one long entry of mine here, as if it was his own words! Not to give up, this member then PM'd me and said I didn't have long to live, and posted pictures of his arsenal and a GoogleStreet view of my own house!! All because I did not want to make him a 'Buddy', and told him why when he asked….. * Lest We Forget…* The Liberal and Tolerant laisse-faire control is a great feature…but gets abused by the people who can become real problems.


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## JAGWAH (Dec 15, 2009)

Excellent and thanks!


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## RetiredCoastie (Sep 7, 2009)

DKV I agree with your statement. My only concern is that people will stretch the rules in order to stir up arguments which is the reason for the ban in the first place. Otherwise the NON SHOP TALK will just go away as it did before. While I may not agree with what I perceive to be your belief I do however respect your right to your opinion and a healthy debate is a good thing but there are those that can't behave and don't have the same respect for opinions other than there own.


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Redryder, this may or may not be a "knee jerk reaction" but now we can all get back to woodworking and just get along. Thanks Nathan. You will never make everyone happy.


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

I think at this point all those folks that have been blocked should be unblocked. A clean start of sorts. Now that we all understand the rules I say drop all the blocks. Remember poopiekat, we now have that "lovin' feelin'" back. Give it a shot. Let's see what happens. I love you all, until you prove you can't be loved.


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## Sawkerf (Dec 31, 2009)

Well, that's too bad. LJ's was one of the more vibrant and interesting sites on my Favorites list because of the opportunity to step out of the woodworking box and discuss/debate/argue with fellow woodworkers. Yes, some of the threads were over the top, but most seemed to be pretty civil.

I felt that the management had done a pretty good job of providing some separation between the wood working and non woodworking topics, but I guess the puritans yelled enough to force the change. You've lost a lot of what made this site so good. Now, IMO, it's just another ho-hum website.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

If ALL of the IPA# is used, yes, there could be a problem… 
BUT, if the last 3 digits were Not used, it would be better.

Of course one can go to another location or use another ISP… & have another IPA…
(but he has to only operate from that source).

If he comes back under a New Name and continues to cause trouble, Ban him (the IPA) again…

*Keeping the IPA as part of the Account Control would be a big help and would probably stop 95% of the people doing it.*


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

If you want action Sawkerf try discussing evolution on a creationist website or Obama on a republican website. That'll get you some action…


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*Blocking… UNBloacking…*

I agree with Nathan… It's up to the USER…


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## ellen35 (Jan 1, 2009)

Good call, Nathan, Debbie and Martin.


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## Granddaddy1 (May 16, 2012)

Thank you!


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

If you are NOT whining about it, what are you doing? LOL

Presenting Ideas / Suggestions is not "whining"...


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Chipmunk, Chipmunk, Chipmunk please be an adult about this change and have patience. Eventually all of the bad feelings and name calling will come to an end. We can all live and love together in peace and harmony. Of course we could also wait for pigs to fly. Now flying pigs will really cause some lively discussion. I say wait for the pigs…


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## americanwoodworker (Nov 26, 2011)

Sawkerf you said it well. If I wanted to discuss politics just for the "gotcha" effect I would go to a political website and argue with those type of people. But I want to discuss it to learn and be challenged. Thats why I like it to be discussed in places that are not dedicated to political hacks. I guarantee in one of my posts I enlightened a person to real history that he did not even know existed. I did not call him names either. It was an educational debate.


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## BillWhite (Jul 23, 2007)

As the song goes, "been a long time comin'".
An old addage:
"When you argue with a fool in public, the public can't tell which one is the fool." 
Bill


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

Hey, chipmunk:
hmmm… you lament the new controls, yet spare me no latitude in my choice of words. Somebody just tried to get a rise out of me, yet no comment from you about that. Guess it depends on whose ox is getting gored? Aww who cares. Though, something you wrote a few days ago was like…wow, good stuff…


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Most of the time they can Bill. Most of the time they can.


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## woodklutz (Oct 27, 2010)

Great news and much appreciated.
Thank you


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Poopiekat, Joe I'm serious. Let's unblock everyone and see where this new utopia is headed. After all it's easy enough to reblock. Or we could throw the blocking action out to the group and let them decide whether or not the supposed slight is in fact a slight worth blocking for. Some of us have pretty thin skins. We could have a forum called block or not block and cast votes. Now it doesn't get any fairer than that. I love you guys…


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

I will control my Blocking option, thank you.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

Katdaddy sez: Woodworkers are a good bunch. I really enjoy the site and communicating with others like myself. Good to see some moderation. Good move from the management. Thanks

And..People who force their views on others are normally just looking for a fight, nothing more. Just a reflection of these people's lives in general

but also sez: * poopie, put your bigboy pants on and get over it*

yeah, ok…whatever…


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## NathanW (Mar 11, 2008)

*nwbusa* I'm going to do some research on the block function. I need to fully understand how it's coded and I'll see if changes are possible. Thanks for the feedback.

*ChuckV* I posted it in this area because that is where most of the discussion was taking place and I didn't want anyone who posts about these things to miss it. Also, we are working on a revamp of the flagging system to help with a few issues we have.

*RetiredCoastie* Regarding your follow up question. Let's see how it goes and then possibly make the titles visible. I'm not sure we want joke threads and such mixed in with woodworking titles when people are browsing.

*DKV* We will take the science topics on a case by case basis. For the most part I don't see any issue with them but if it gets turned into a religious debate we will probably close it down.

*Joe Lyddon* There is a lot to it and I'd prefer to not get into it publicly since I don't want to give anyone any ideas. But it's not that easy.

Regard your next post. I agree the rules haven't been enforced like they should We are trying to change that now. We are also building tools to allow for more moderation. It will take some time but for now just keep reporting stuff you see that breaks our rules. Thanks.
I'm fine with someone discussing Sawstop in a civil manner. To me that's more of an on topic discussion that I'm sure someone can blow up about but those people will be warned if they do so.

*poopiekat *I think some of your problems are more about rules not being enforced and people being allowed to create trouble rather than you needing to block someone. That being said, the block feature will not be removed… I could just see it being altered to be more useful but I'll talk to Martin about that.

*Chipmunk* We "censor" a lot of things here. We don't allow pornography for example. We try to keep the site family friendly or "appropriate for all ages". We don't allow hate speech. People often confuse their "rights" as citizens in America with what is allowed on a private website. We set the rules in a manner that we feel encourages a healthy site. And healthy in our mind doesn't mean a lot of posts. I'm OK if activity goes down some but the activity that remains is healthy on topic discussions. 
About "appeasement" as you state it. I take the opposite position. I was the driving force behind opening the off topic area back up, but when we did so I didn't want Politics and Religion to be allowed. Why? I've been running community sites like this for over 9 years and every time those topics are allowed it end badly. In my mind we gave into the loud voices that said "we are all adults and we should be able to talk about Politics and Religion" we are paying the price. I should have stuck to my gut from the beginning. This is my desire, not just those of the people who complained. I guess we can just agree to disagree on that point.
Your last point, I really don't know what you are talking about but if you see a post that violates our posting rules feel free to report it or PM me about it. Thanks.


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## TheOldTimer (Dec 13, 2009)

There are other sites and forums for politics and religious debates. Keep this site for woodworking, politics and religious topics belong to the television set.


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## Doss (Mar 14, 2012)

Thank you. While complete removal of those discussions is probably further than I would have gone, I completely understand why it was the right choice for what we are currently facing. I was only expecting it to escalate not only in frequency but also in fervor over the next few months.

While some people whine of censorship, I think the OT NST was eroding away at the community we have here. Negative feelings were being harbored between individuals that otherwise might get along just fine. I'll take the admins' abilities to exercise their decisions on what they feel is the right direction for their site over the perceived removal of a freedom some think they should have on a private forum.

There were many small factions forming and those things that were once confined to the just the NST that were OT in nature were beginning to spill over not only in tone but also in direct response in the other forums.

Also, about the removal of blocks and a clean slate. I wouldn't do it. Some people are blocked for reasons other than political or religious banter.

And yes *TheOldTimer*, there are countless other forums out there where you can debate politics, religions, science, etc. to your heart's content.


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## nwbusa (Feb 21, 2012)

Just to clarify, I don't have any problem with anyone blocking any user they want, I just don't think that blocking should extend to forum posts. I can see where blocking PMs is necessary, but if someone is violating the rules in a forum post, then it is very visible and can be dealt with by the moderators. Hope they can make that change.


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## OnlyJustME (Nov 22, 2011)

I think it is a good move for this site but it is such a shame that adults can't be mature and respectful enough to keep things civil on their own.


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## Sawkerf (Dec 31, 2009)

DKV-
I'm not after "action" in the sense you seem to think. I do appreciate civilized discussion and found it here - until the puritans got their way. Mrs Grundy is alive and well. - lol


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Two things:
1. I haven't seen Grizz weigh in yet. Lost in action?

2. I still think my idea of "to block or not to block" could be great. It could be something like a game and points given (or taken) for right, intelligent, funny answers. It could become as famous as Farmville or Simcity. A community working together for the betterment of mankind. Not so much "betterment" that it borders on religious though. We need to stay within the boundaries. Also, our "woodworking city/ville" would not have politics. As a group we make decisions for the whole group. We would no longer need moderators or censors. It would kinda be like communism (forgive me the use of the word) but in a good sorta way. A world without borders where everyone can feel safe and free and protected if they need to be protected.

Boy, sometimes I come up with some really, really good ideas. Not to pat/slap myself on the back but this has got to be one of my best ones yet. What say you all?


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Ahhhhhhh, come on guys get behind me on this. It's great! BTW, I've got a third item to add to the list of unacceptable topics/comments. I think we should no longer be able to say things like: "I'll send a pm to Nathan" or "Nathan should hear about this" or "I'm going to tell Nathan". I don't think tattling is part of an adult makeup. I could be wrong though. Raise the banner! Don't tread on me or my rights to be me. Love your brother. Love your brothers' sister…oh wait, that one might not be such a good idea. I take that one back.


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## JAGWAH (Dec 15, 2009)

DKV~ I like your idea.

But what if the flag feature was replaced with a 'Like", 'Don't Like' running tally. Rather than respond against a person's post you could simply register a 'Don't Like'. After a certain number of Don't likes minus the likes a poster stands to be automatically blocked from posting on that topic. Then it's not the original poster who blocks but the community. 
Get blocked in this way enough times then your off the island, by by.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Good move due to the level toxicity exhibited as of late.


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

It would kinda be like communism

I think it would kinda be like all the bad parts of junior high school.


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Jagwah, I really like the idea of blocking selectively based on threads. Joe blocked me based on one thread. What's to say I wouldn't agree with him on his next thread. I like the thread blocking. I don't know what kind of programming/technology is involved or the ease of implementation. Only Nathan can answer that. I really, really like the group consensus approach. That way if the group thinks an individual is disrupting a thread then they can dump that person. However, by the time the voting has taken place the thread may have faded into the sunset.


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## NathanW (Mar 11, 2008)

*Chipmunk* If you have a problem with a post flag it. But don't use the fact that someone else did something and you didn't flag it as justification for what you do. If someone finds offense in something you said and reports it we will take a look at take action as needed. Getting into specific gotcha posts would last forever. 
I think it's pretty clear when people are being respectful or not without needing a dictionary.


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## JAGWAH (Dec 15, 2009)

DKV, true that there would be to much time delay. Blocking is odd in my thinking anyway. To block someone from sending me an annoying PM is one thing but to block a poster in one of my topics because I disagree is a bit childish. I sometimes get my best ideas from annoying people.


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## Doss (Mar 14, 2012)

In some commenting systems on the blogs I read, the audience can vote a comment into "oblivion." Essentially, that comment begins to increase into transparency until it is invisible then finally collapse (minimized) for anyone who really wants to see it to expand it.

It stops a lot of trolling because trolls want to be seen and heard and know that they are disrupting.

While "nice" is relative, it generally boils down to if you would like to be treated or responded to in the same way. Or, to use a more colorful example, would you speak to your parents/grandparents that way? Some of you may answer "yes," but you know what I'm getting at.

*Chipmunk*, I don't understand who is taking away your ability to counter-comment. The whole point of this action by the moderators is to remove the tense, heated political/religious topics from this forum and also to stem the vitriol some people use to provoke a reaction.


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## KnickKnack (Aug 20, 2008)

I think it's pretty clear when people are being respectful or not without needing a dictionary.
Everything Chipmunk says is correct, and as a mathematician, that "cross over point" is always an interesting one.
But Nathan and his people are the "Supreme Court" of the United States of Being a Lumberjock, and, as such, I think he's defining the rule as "I know it when I see it" - good enough for other Supreme Court. And, I believe like the other Supreme Court as well, we got no choice


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## KnickKnack (Aug 20, 2008)

I'm an adult.
Isn't that exactly the point. As I understood it the site wants to be "Family Friendly" (which probably isn't very well defined either). That means, I think, we need to think about a level *below* or *above* (depending on your viewpoint) what *we* deem acceptable. It's *not* about whether we, the adults, would speak to our "parents/grandparents" that way, it's about whether we, the adults, would speak to our 10 or 12 year old *child* that way.


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## NathanW (Mar 11, 2008)

*Chipmunk* Sounds good and it's your choice. Just don't complain when your posts are moderated and others aren't because you refuse to take action. You can't have it both ways.


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## PurpLev (May 30, 2008)

thanks. back to the good'ole'days where politics/religion were out - and things were much better. was a bit strange that they sort of made their way in when OT forum was reopened.

people seem to confuse the fact that this is a FREE website for the members and forget that it's WORLD WIDE service and think that it's all part of the USA and is tied to their freedom and rights as citizens here…. wake up people.


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## NathanW (Mar 11, 2008)

*Chipmunk* It goes both ways. It's your call if you want to be apart of the site based on these decisions. Good luck with whatever you decide.


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## JusticeBeaver (Jul 14, 2011)

I like it. thank you.

If I wanted to hear people yell and be rude about politics I'd visit my family.


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## Doss (Mar 14, 2012)

*Chipmunk*, I'll take a crack at it though it may not directly pertain to you. I have noticed that on some (not many) threads, certain people quickly begin to slide in their comments about it being Obama's | Republicans' |Democrats | *Puritans* | Kool-Aid Man's fault as to why something is happening even when it's completely unwarranted.

*Exaggerated example:*
Why is my jointer not working correctly? Blame Obama. He caused shipping to go up by not regulating gas prices and shippers had to skimp on packing materials.

From there, the thread will usually try to resume, but that triggers a reaction from some people who were originally visiting for the initial thread and now are feeling the need to respond to or smother the "fire".

Now, are you forcing us in that situation? In a manner, yes, you are. That is almost what is happening right here on this thread.

As for just posting and people clicking into a thread that they know is about a certain topic, are we forced to read that? No. But, the number of those threads is growing. Enough that it was becoming a cancer on the NST forum. There was spill over in other forums as well in the form of snarky remarks meant to bait others into an argument.

So, it's not like I don't see your point, because I do. What I don't get is why you are so angry about it.


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## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

weighing in … Freedom of speech is wonderful but often people forget that "just because you can, doesn't mean you should".

Many times, since the new non-shop talk forum was opened, we have asked members to be civil and respectful. Many times we have reminded members that every part of the site should be appropriate for all members and the adults should be role-models for our young woodworkers. But, alas, debates and postings continued to end up being disrespectful.

The intention of the open forum was that members could monitor their own behaviours. Sadly, this has not happened. It was a hard decision to make the call to prohibit the religious and political debates but, with the goal of what is best for the site as a whole and for all of the members, I believe this is a necessary decision. The other option, as I saw it, would have been to close the non-shop forum all together. This is a good compromise.

As we have already seen there are those who want to push the boundaries or complicate the situation with "what if" scenarios. You don't want censorship and nit-pickiness to happen and yet that is what is being requested, it seems. I think most readers of the new rules can identify what the intention of the rule is. I think it is pretty clear.

It will be interesting times, I'm sure, as we settle into a rhythm that is reflective of the spirit of LumberJocks.


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## muleskinner (Sep 24, 2011)

Well, I'm a little disappointed. I always found the contentious threads entertaining if nothing else. Well, such is life - it's not my (or anyone elses) site except Martins. We're all here at his pleasure. If any of us feel our voice is being stifled we're free to start our own site and write our own rules. Blogger, Tumblr, Facebook etc. are all free - have at it. Don't forget to post your URL.


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

Thanks Debbie.

I can only speak for myself. To me, it was obvious that some change was needed. I hope that it will make for a better woodworking site, which, after all, is the whole point. There will always be some very loud dissenters to any change. I am glad that you made this decision and that you left the non-shop talk forum intact.


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## madts (Dec 30, 2011)

I think that it is going to be very interesting to see what is politics and what is not. Ditto with religion. For example is DVK's byline "ALLAHU AKBAR" religion or politics.. To me is is both. I am an atheist, and by signing that way he is trying to influence me, both religiously and politically. I am trying to be the devil's advocate here. I do agree that the site got out of hand, and maybe the new rules might work. I have my doubts.

DVK: no offence meant, just use you as an example.


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Let's look to the future of nonshop talk. I will continue to post topics concerning evolution, creationism (if it's considered science) economics of open borders (humanity approach), my camel fleet, etc and pretty much be exactly where I was. Although on a few topics I will have to police for those that want to take my topics into religion or politics. Those that have posted nothing in nonshop but politics will probably no longer be seen in the nonshop forum. It seems to me that those that wanted tighter control are now out of the business of posting. For those of you that got off on nothing but politics what's your plan? Remember the old saying, "be careful what you wish for".

madts - no offense taken, peace


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## JAGWAH (Dec 15, 2009)

One's by-line has nothing to do with post topics or their replies. There is no influence intended there no more than my byline is. Your over reaching.


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

madts,

"you're just dead a long time". I am offended - I believe in eternal life through reincarnation! OK, just kidding.

Certainly there will be gray areas. But that doesn't mean that there aren't also black and white areas.


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## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

Madts … what makes it a little easier to understand is: "*political and religious debates, and thus postings,* are prohibited at LumberJocks.com. Please *refrain from starting or taking part in such discussions*." ...

simple statements that are not intended to be controversial or to attack someone personally are not debates, and are not postings that will unravel into a debate.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if everyone could be mature enough to participate in the site following the intention behind the rules rather than trying to push the boundaries to make a point or to be sneaky about their intent.


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## JAGWAH (Dec 15, 2009)

CR*P I'll be dead a long time? No body 'splained that to me. Aw well, not so bad, I did figure when I became dead it was going to be for a while anyway. But I have wondered if I'd get cable.


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## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)

where is good political forum site? >grinz< never been on one.

anyone got any links?


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

ChuckV, actually reincarnation would be very cool. I could come back as a camel. Did I just commit a sin?


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## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

*ChuckV* - I like how you explained it and if you don't mind I'll be using that phrase in the future, I'm sure .. and (my apologies beforehand - I'll probably at some point forget who first said it)

"Certainly there will be gray areas. But that doesn't mean that there aren't also black and white areas." ~ ChuckV


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## JAGWAH (Dec 15, 2009)

DKV, your lucks like mine it'd be a Camel cigarette.

Reincarnation is a very appealing ponder. Unless we come back as something we tormented in order to make ammends. Over and over until we lead a perfect life offending no one or thing. Some might have a lot of lives, I know I might.

Sorry for jumping in there.


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## Sawkerf (Dec 31, 2009)

DKV-
It will be interesting to see if your threads about evolution/creationism, as well as threads on non religious/non political subjects like gun control will pass over the new bar.

I'll set the opening betting line at 50-50. - lol


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Jagwah, I couldn't come back as a cigarette…I gave them up 15 years ago.

Sawkerf, I guess I'll find out. I hope they're giving chances and forgiveness after a first warning.

ChuckV, I said that a very long time ago. What makes you think it's yours?


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

I said it in a previous life - hah!


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Previous lives have to do with religion so you couldn't possibly be telling the truth. I win! Inform Debbie.


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

OK - I said it in a parallel universe. That sounds pretty scientific to me.


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## KayBee (Jul 6, 2009)

Well, it's nice that you finally made some changes. It's still my favorite woodworking site, but…

Too late for my kids (okay teenagers) though. They got disgusted by all the 'garbage' posts and won't check anything out anymore. No more of the "Hey Mom, how do I make something like that?" Your 'don't click and don't look' attitudes just lost a generation of woodworkers.


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## madts (Dec 30, 2011)

One other option in the OT forum could be to limit the number of posts to each say 25 comments, and then it dies.


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## jmos (Nov 30, 2011)

It will be interesting to hear how the daily volume of posts drops.


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## mtenterprises (Jan 10, 2011)

I sure ain't reading 110 posts before I have my say. And the old saying goes 'Politics and religion should never be discussed in polite company.' My grandfather used to say it as I'm sure his grandfather probabaly did too.
NUFF SAID.
MIKE


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Joe, I was just perusing through the 100+ replies and you have nothing to worry about. Since all of your posts in nonshop had to do with politics or religion they will be deleted. It doesn't really matter if it's truly you posting or an id thief. If the thief wants to maintain your persona then he/she will post only political/religious stuff and get deleted. You're safe.


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Part of the problem with the human race is that we continue to declare as truth and dogma what our parents, grandparents, great grandparents, etc pass down. Some (a lot) of it is complete crap. When will we start to think on our own and research what we have been told. We are a species blind to expanded horizons.


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## renners (Apr 9, 2010)

Nathan, Debbie, Martin

One thing I'd like to know is this - is Lumberjocks revenue dependent on clicks? I've read dozens of times that it's the reason for keeping the NSTF the way it was for so long - and if your finances are going to take a hit by outlawing the Religious and Political posts, will the site still be free? (I'm only asking the question, I would have no objection to paying to be a member (as long as it wasn't too much).


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## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

renners - I don't have the complete answer for you but the comments about funding have never come from the owners of the site. 
The reason that the non-shop talk forum was re-introduced was because some members requested it.

We listened, we weighed the odds (problems vs best interests of the site and the members) and we decided to bring it back and asked members to be civil in the forum, being respectful of all members.


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## Sawkerf (Dec 31, 2009)

My earlier post was somewhat in jest, but I do wonder who decides if a topic is political or religious, and how that decision is made.

A fairly recent thread involved morality, ethics, and the law. Another one started with a snide remark about the NRA being "proud" after the Colorado shootings, but quickly went to what I saw as a philosophical/historical debate about the 2nd Amendment. Would these now be banned?

In a woodworking thread, a member called moron made 4-5 consecutive posts expressing his deep dislike of polyurethane finishes. Should those of us who use polyurethane have to tolerate this kind of denigration? There are many similar situations regarding LJ's tool choices. Mention Craftsman, Ryobi, B&D, etc and you'll get comments about them being a POS. Is that playing nice?

Since the management has chosen censorship, shouldn't we get some better guidance than "no religion", "no politics", and "play nice"?


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

I think that THIS thread has gone on just long enough. How many pounds of cheese will it take? Starting to sound like my 7 year old Grand BRAT when someone tells her NO. I think the new rules have been spelled out for everyone, time to get back to the "Normal' forums….

And, no, I'll not be a-changing me sign-off, either.


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## carver (Nov 4, 2010)

thanks


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## OnlyJustME (Nov 22, 2011)

I just had to baby sit my two nieces and nephew who are 8, 5 and 4 years old and they are better behaved then some people on this site. You tell them a rule and they follow it. They don't nit-pick at the rule and say well if this, than this and blah blah blah…. Just be a responsible adult and follow the rules. My brother's children can do it. It's not that hard to do. Stop trying to put some other spin on it and lawyer it to death. We know what the rule is and what the owners/moderators of LJ mean by it.


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

OnlyJustME,

Bingo!


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## Sawkerf (Dec 31, 2009)

I think the new rules have been spelled out for everyone

We know what the rule is and what the owners/moderators of LJ mean by it.

Ahhh, the old "everybody knows" argument. Well, if I "knew", I wouldn't have asked the questions I asked in the earlier post. Children have no choice but to go along with "I'm the parent and I said so" rules. AFAIK, there are few children here so those are pretty lame responses. I used specific examples and asked for Yes/No answers. Inquiring minds want to know.

OnlyJustME describes the response of his nieces and nephew to arbitrary rules handed down by adults. I do hope he knows that that method has a pretty short shelf life. By their teens, they're going to want to know why and the wise parent recognizes that it's a new day and new parenting techniques are needed. Heavy handed domination is a short cut to juvenile hall.


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Sawkerf you beat me to it. I think condescending should be added to the list of no-no's.


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Chipmunk, so the camel just wanted to put his head in. I've heard something similar to that before. Someone help me out here.

BTW, my formative years were spent in Fergus Falls through the third grade.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

And yet another pound of cheese wasted. About like listening to that Simpsons brat.


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

571, what the heck is cheese all about? Cow, goat, camel? And why do you want people to stop posting? Is this another rule I am not aware of?


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

It tends to go great with "Whine". Flavour is up to you.


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

GregD started a thread a few days ago concerning Politics, Religion and Sex. Politics and religion are now defintely out. Do you guys think we should ask Greg to start another with just the sex part? I don't want to rock the boat, just curious. I guess we could have rules…something like the movie rating system. What do you guys think? I really do want to include Joe in this nonshop topic. He's probably pretty lonely without his politics and religion. If he doesn't like sex then I don't know what to say or do for him. I need some help here.


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## JollyGreen67 (Nov 1, 2010)

As I have been "outlawed by Joe, who should read his own last post about whining, when ideas and words are in response to unbelievable half truths.

And "outlawed" by others for reasons unknow to me.


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## gfadvm (Jan 13, 2011)

Nathan, Debbie, and Martin: I can't believe that I waded through 130 posts but I had to say "thank you" and offer my wholehearted support. I'm going to e mail some ex LJs with the news and try to get them to come back and suggest that others do the same.


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Chipmunk, wow! 53, 54, 55.


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Gfadvm, we should keep track of how many come back. Maybe Mike will.


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## Sawkerf (Dec 31, 2009)

Why is bandit so concerned with cheese? Is it his cheese? If it isn't, why does he care how it's used? - lol


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

I'll supply the "Cheese", because I am sure that you will supply the WHINE to go with it. Or, would you prefer Brie?


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## sonnyr (Jul 28, 2012)

Nathan, Martin and Debbie, thank you very much for your decision to limit politcal and religious forums. I'm a newbee and joined LJ because I thought that it was all about woodworking. Little did know that a few members, that literally don't post *many* woodworking topics, would take any method to incite/agitate other members. I still see their tactics in operation on this thread, but I have full confidence in you 3 *to remove those folks *and return the site to a WOODWORKING site.
Thanks again, my full support to you. (Made some changes, I guess I stepped on some toes, my apologies.)


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Sonnyr, purge those folks? Purge? You sound like Stalin. He had purges. Why would you want to purge anyone? Can I purge you? BTW, I haven't heard from Grizz. He could be on your team. He believes in purging. Isn't purging something the Romans used to do after eating? Maybe it was the European gentry. Can you help me Sonny?


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## sonnyr (Jul 28, 2012)

So long!
TLBWY
AWYS


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## stan3443 (Mar 3, 2012)

thank you


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Golly, Miss Molly that's some vitriol.


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## OldMarine (Mar 6, 2012)

Nothing justifies new rules like* not *playing nice in the "play nice" thread.

Priceless.


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## mikedddd (Jul 22, 2009)

"Nothing justifies new rules like not playing nice in the "play nice" thread.

Priceless"

How true.

Glad to see the change.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Chip&Dalemonk… My gallery is quite full, shall I do the same trick. Nah, I'll just go back and restore a few old, rusty handsaws to like-new condition. I have until next thursday to get FOUR of them done, then a #5 handplane will come in the door, for it's turn. Restore old tools is a nice, dirty job. Restoring dirty, musty-smelling olde phartes like yourself? Nah, ain't even worth my time…..

Go to bed Junior, it's past your curfew….


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

OldMarine, I'm confused (not hard to do). Are you saying everyone is not playing nice? Who is not playing nice? This thread seems pretty nice to me. I only ask so I don't do the same. With the new rules I want to make sure I always play nice. Don't want anyone upset with me.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

One could think a moment before they hit the keyboards….."Could I say THIS in front of my Mom?"

If the answer is "Yes", either you are playing by the new rules, or, I'd be afraid to meet your Mom, even for breakfast…..

If the answer is "No", then just don't post anything. Move along to the next topic….


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

I think most of these posts in this thread are mom worthy. Pretty gentle compared to some of past ones I've read. Some of the best non-mom threads I've read included Mike and some very nasty name calling. Haven't seen any of that in quite awhile.


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## vipond33 (Jul 25, 2011)

New rules? 
Y'know, it was just getting interesting. Sad.
"Then they go on vacation to Europe where they blow smoke in their face." 
Pretty funny.
gene


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## derosa (Aug 21, 2010)

I sure ain't reading 110 posts before I have my say. And the old saying goes 'Politics and religion should never be discussed in polite company.' My grandfather used to say it as I'm sure his grandfather probabaly did too.
NUFF SAID.
MIKE
I find it sad that this is the general attitude of this nation, the US, and view it as one of the reasons our politics are what they are and why it is that there are some who have a hard time discussing them civilly. I just past week preached that as Americans we have an obligation to our nation and to stewardship of the earth we share to spend time discussing politics, learning about who the candidates are and being involved in discussion about the merits of each person. I of course already expect them to be discussing religion. I think that it is a shame OT was allowed to get out of control but I contribute that to a lack of oversight in not banning certain people that were getting out of control; I am aware that some might consider me one of those in need of banning. This new solution isn't a fix, merely a patch. I, like chipmunk, would also like to know how anyone was forced to read anything they didn't want to. Too many talk of being adults while refusing to act like one and exercising self control either in the vitriol in which they posted or in the tirade they had because they can't help themselves opening something they aren't adult enough to read. I'll stick around since there is much about this site I like but I do feel the mods have killed a good piece of what made this site worthwhile, that all kinds of ideas and discussions could be permitted.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Chipmonkey Re: your reply to Molly:
Ah! We FINALLY have the perfect example of WHY the New rules are in place. Just read the above three lines. So enlightening a response, so full of good manners, so….Mom-friendly. Sad part, this "THING" hasn't a single clue about WHY such rules are made. Not one clue that his brat-like behavior might be the cause of these new rules? yes sir, a perfect shining example….

yep, he is using this post to spread the same stuff around like he normally would on his usual "topics". About time to close this mess up, like any other shop.


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Bandit, when you talk brat like are talking about molly?


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## joebloe (Feb 13, 2012)

well there goes freedom of speech,whats going to go next?


> ?


????


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Bandit, I think chipmunk has been pretty subdued and fair. From my point of view Molly was the attacker. Self defense is ok. This is still a pretty benign thread that fits well within the new rule set.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Calling someone a twelve-year old benign? Interesting. Molly gets chewed out for speaking her mind? Interesting. Someone coming to the "defense' of the one doing that chewing out, and belittling of Molly, Hmmm, about par for this course. Wonder which one is Chip, and which one is Dale?
"I'LL have the last word in that thread, if I have to chase, or block everybody else off the post. One has tried that against Molly. So what else is new? Same old, same old…

As if those two weren't so dang predictable.


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Bandit, I cede the last word to you.


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## OnlyJustME (Nov 22, 2011)

You still have your freedom of speech John and you can post it on your own blog spot or website. That is your right to do so but it is also the right of the LJ owners to limit what gets posted on their site. 
I'm sure you wouldn't want some stranger to come and belittle and curse at your grandkids because they have freedom of speech.


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## joebloe (Feb 13, 2012)

by the way who is nathan?? I don't see him listed as part of the staff.until I see something posted from martin or debbie, I'll click where and when I want to!!!!!!!!!!!


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## rance (Sep 30, 2009)

Thank you to the mgt. A step in the right direction.

"by the way who is nathan??" 
He can be found here.

"listed as part of the staff" 
Where is the staff listed? That might be interesting to see.


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Molly, in your post #151 who is this abbott you reference. He's not the same guy that went bonkers when the Coffee Lounge was closed, is he? He seemed kind of unpleasant to me. Was he your friend?


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## UncleStumpy (Jan 26, 2012)

Good move - thank you!


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## KnickKnack (Aug 20, 2008)

Then they go on vacation to Europe where they blow smoke in their face

It seems as if you haven't been to Europe in a while.
The wave of "non-smoking" is sweeping across here. In Spain, where almost all of the cafés were smoking, all that changed overnight and they *all* became non-smoking - many are now going out of business as people just stay home. It's a similar story in England.
Here in Portugal, I think they have it about right - *most* cafés and restaurants are non-smoking, but there are usually some where you can smoke - more so out in the villages. How great is that - smokers can chose to go to a smoking establishment, and non-smokers can chose to go to a non-smoking place. Not for long, I fear, but that's the situation today.
I'm a smoker. I personally believe there should be pubs/cafés/restaurants etc etc where I, and others like me, can freely smoke. I'll fight for people to be allowed that choice. What I *will not* fight for is to be allowed to smoke in places frequented by children - that, imo, just isn't right. Should I be allowed to smoke in the classroom? In hospitals? In the metro/subway? On buses? Surely not. In some places our "freedoms" need to be curtailed for the good of society as a whole. Here on LJ is, I believe, one such place.

And I'll say this one more time on the off-chance that some of the "freedom or death" people read it (no offence intended - constantly monitoring the erosion of our freedoms is very important) - this is *not* about whether you'd be happy for your mom to see or read some of these topics, it's about whether you'd be happy for your *child* to see or read it.
Wouldn't it be great if you could leave your child to surf freely around this site looking at the great projects, reading the great blogs, and looking at the various discussions about issues of the day? Read what KayBee said up there in post #108. Perhaps your child saw about Gibson Guitars on the news - they see the thread entitled "Re: Gibson Guitars Settles" and open it. What do they find?
"******************** all of you. This is like watching 12 yr olds fight in the school yard." ... "This site has been ruined by mean mouthed assholes looking to "debate" others with long winded bull******************** nobody wants to read."
That is but one example from many of someone "smoking in the classroom".


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## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

Good morning everyone. 
Thanks for all the feedback. 
I see that the tightrope walkers have been out, walking that line between "black and white" and the "grey area". Sigh.

As for "who will make the decision" 
As ChuckV pointed out, there will be the grey areas and the black and white postings. Like it or not the moderators will be making the decision about what gets closed/deleted etc.

To make this decision the moderators will, for the most part, become aware of the issue via the flagging system-appropriateness assessed by the members. The moderator will then take into consideration what is in the best interest of the site and all members and, yes, personal perspective will also be a factor. We are human.

We will do our best to keep the off-topic forum casual but respectful and civil.

And, hopefully, most of the moderating will take place at the members own keyboards.


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

100% agree. People's freedom of speech can be exercised on tons of places on the web. LJ's is finally back. I just might stay now.

Thanks +1 from me.


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## MarkDavisson (Apr 26, 2009)

I visited this "non-shop talk forum" one time and quickly discovered it was dedicated to, well, non-shop talk. And, to be honest, I really don't care what you guys have to say about non-shop topics - especially religion or politics. So I've never been back until today, and that was because I saw a mention in a couple of comments about richgreer's John Deere buddy seat project about a big LJ "announcement." (Took me 20 minutes to finally dig through all the different sections of this site to find it!)

Anyway, my point is that I love you guys as woodworkers, and I honor and respect your opinions about things wood. But I just don't care what you think about other topics. Maybe I should, but I just don't.


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## Sawkerf (Dec 31, 2009)

Well, this "tightrope walker" is still confused.

Yesterday, Nathan said;
Because of their divisive nature, political and religious debates, and thus postings, are prohibited at LumberJocks.com. Please refrain from starting or taking part in such discussions.

We will be closing political threads (a new feature) as we see them and ask that you don't start any new ones or bump any old ones.

Today, Ms Debbie says;
We will do our best to keep the off-topic forum casual but respectful and civil.

So, which will it be? Will topics be blasted because of their subject matter or can they exist as long as the posts are "respectful and civil."?


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

I'm still in a WORLD of hurt. May know more on Monday. Keep me in your thoughts and prayers, please.

But … having heard this news from *Grizzman*, I wanted to weigh in … from a perspective that IS Martin's and Nathans, but-appropriately-one to which they aren't speaking.

As a former E-commerce company director, yes: clicks and page views are EVERYTHING, in setting advertising rates and creating ad revenue.

Meaning: if this were a site run as a pure profit play … there's just about NO WAY they would have created the new (no religion, no politics) rule. Eyeballs and mouse clicks are everything, for websites that don't sell products.

The fact that they DID make this change-to me-is huge.

It tells ME (rightly or wrongly) that they care just as much about QUALITY of members and content as they do about QUANTITY.

And … on so many levels … that makes me smile.

Cheers, *Nathan,* *Martin,* and *Debbie,* for a gutsy, and-IMHO-wise choice. I think you've traded some short-term pain for some likely long-term gain.

May it be so.


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

Sawkerf,

My interpretation is that a forum discussion needs to be 
(1) not on a prohibited topic 
AND 
(2) respectful and civil


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## jmos (Nov 30, 2011)

Neil!! Long time Buddy, how are you doing?


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## RetiredCoastie (Sep 7, 2009)

Sometimes a whack on the nose with a newspaper is needed to get a puppies attention when house breaking them. Once they're mature it's usually not necessary….. Sorry I thought this was the AKC forum!


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## Praki (Jun 17, 2007)

Thank you!


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## Sawkerf (Dec 31, 2009)

ChuckV-
Ok, that's your interpretation, but are you a moderator? My interpretation is that even political and religious topics will be ok as long as they are respectful and civil. But I'm not a moderator and it's their interpretation(s) that count.

BTW, your tag line defines a free society. People who believe that they're only permitted to do things that someone allows them to do are usually called slaves.

RetiredCoastie-
Yes, that works for some dogs, but other dogs fight back.


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## hairy (Sep 23, 2008)

Thank you for this change! It's good to see Lumberjocks staying on topic.

It's too bad this thread got hijacked like so many others have.


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

Sawkerf,

That's an interesting interpretation of my tag line. Actually Lawrence Krauss is describing how strangely quantum mechanics works.

Now *hairy *has a tagline that says something!
Meanwhile back in the year One…


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Good morning to the home of the brave and the land of the free. Saturday morning and I'm feeling good except for the fact that I have not heard from Molly. Maybe someone else here can help me with my question. Who is this abbott that she refers to in post #151? I'm curious since having read the comments that went along with the shutdown of the coffee lounge. Abbott had some really strong opinions. I think poopiekat may know him. Seems they had some rather strained exchanges. Of course as always, I may be wrong. Probably not though since I am seldom wrong. I hope that didn't upset anyone…just stating the truth.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

would abbott being working with costello? Those two would have a ball with this…


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Bandit, I agree that would probably be pretty funny. However, the one I read in the old coffee lounge closedown had two buxom beauties and a tagline about wood and boobs or something to that affect. I don't think you were around back then since I didn't see any posts on the thread from you and I know for sure that you would have had a comment about closing the coffee lounge down.

Anyway, don't force me to pm you Molly. Wakeup and reply. Who is this abbott you referred to in post 151?


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## Sawkerf (Dec 31, 2009)

DKV-
I'm thinking that Molly might be taking care of that "whole generation" of woodworkers that live with her who have been lost to woodworking because of posts in the non-shop section. There are a helluva lot of kids in a "whole generation" so she probably has her hands full.

If she shows back up, someone should ask her if they were lost to woodworking in general - or just to the LJ site.

ChuckV-
My all time favorite definition from Quantum Mechanics described a photon as "The faster it goes the bigger it gets, but if you stop it, it ain't."


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Oh, BTW it would be nice to have Debbie give us a list of those that are "walking the line". I want to make sure that my name is not on the list. I don't want to wake up some morning and find out I am no longer a member of LJs. That would be a real bummer and cause me numerous distresses.


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## joebloe (Feb 13, 2012)

Well it's been nice while it lasted,but I am not going to have any thing to do with a web site that has forms and them takes away my right to FREEDOM OF SPEECH.You have a form that is OFF TOPIC,in my opinion that means nonwoodworking.If you didn't want to read it you did not have to click on it.But all the whiney babies out there must have felt that every one must live.eat.and breath woodworking.No one forced you to read the OFF TOPIC FORMS.This is my last post on hear.I will not stand for anyone to restrict my FREEDOM OF SPEECH.As long as I can breath I will voice my opinion,and I don't give a Damm who likes it.ALSO I might not agree with what you say, but I will fight for your right to say it.This goodby,so long,ado ,to all (edited).


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## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

Sawkerft, Nathan made two points (well more than that but two that I/you have touched on)
1. no political or religious debates and thus do not start religious/political postings. These will be deleted.
2. civil/respectful - be nice people. 
The second is a little more difficult to monitor due to "just poking fun at each other" etc as well as that if it is not flagged those monitoring the site may not see it. We will try our best to help people play nice, be civil and respectful if they can't do that themselves.

I hope that helps.

Perhaps if people thought of this site as a physical LumberJock shop. You are welcome in, encouraged to share your woodworking experiences, support each other and, yes, enjoy a little social banter. But our (our as in the owners' as well as the members') shop has expectations of behaviours. It is only courteous to respect these boundaries that have been set out.

There are those (the tightrope walkers) who walk on that fine line trying to push the boundaries of these expectations and, as I see it (personally), they will be the first to cry "foul" when their comments and postings are edited or deleted. It is sad that the intention of postings are not for the social connection but to challenge or stomp on the rules. (That is what my experience here has been, anyway.)

As for previous members' activities, it is irrelevant. This is today, these are the expectations for behaviour while in the LumberJock shop.


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## KnickKnack (Aug 20, 2008)

Sakerf: My interpretation is that even political and religious topics will be ok as long as they are respectful and civil.

The rule, as stated by Nathan in the original post, and now displayed under "View Posting rules", is…










Now, please understand that American is not my first language (I'm English), but I don't think the word "prohibited" leaves much, if any, room for "interpretation".


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## spunwood (Aug 20, 2010)

Glad that these new rules have been established! Thanks for taking the integrity of this site seriously.


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Debbie, you didn't answer my question. Am I one of the tightrope walkers? Who are these walkers you refer to? Will there be a first warning or will we just disappear? I want to play the game but I also need to know when I get flagged for "unfortunate behavior". Remember, as evolution says we all need to adapt or die. Will there be a trial? Can I have defense witnesses? I know this website business is a dictatorship but I think this one is a benign dictatorship. Sawmill Creek is pretty strict and we don't want to go there.

Help me Debbie! I need to know.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

I think its great Nathan. Another thumbs up for a great site.


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## Oldtool (May 27, 2012)

*I agree 100% with the decision and new policy. Keep this a woodworking site.

Thank you management.*


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Molly were you drinking last night when you so visciouly attacked Chipmunk and I? Is that why you are not answering? Are you sleeping one off?


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

And what would happen IF Debbie were to say…."Yes!"

I can hear it now…. "Hey, ABBOTT!"


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

Again with th*X* Fr*XX*dom of Sp*XX*ch. This is a privat*X* w*X*b sit*X*. Th*X* own*X*rs can mak*X* any rul*X*s th*X*y want. *X*v*X*ryon*X* is fr*XX* to participat*X* or not. *X*v*X*ryon*X* is fr*XX* to mak*X* th*X*ir own w*X*b sit*X*.

I am consid*X*ring a w*X*b sit*X* that bans th*X* us*X* of th*X* l*X*tt*X*r, w*X*ll, you know, that on*X* that is b*X*tw*XX*n 'd' and 'f'.


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Bandit, IF Debbie said yes to what? You're getting to far ahead of me. If you want me to follow your thought process then you have to slow it down a bit.


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## muleskinner (Sep 24, 2011)

I'm always amazed by how many people don't understand the concept of 'freedom of speech'. And I'm not talking about the owners of LJ.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Short term memory troubles??? The question that you, yourself asked of Debbie: "Am I a tightrope walker?"

Now, IF she had said "Yes" to your question to her, what would DKV do????


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## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

DKV, i missed your question.. sorry.

As a general rule, things just get edited/deleted. If there is a pattern or something needs to be addressed directly we will discuss the issue with you and give a warning. The next step is generally a "probation" and a break from the site. If the behaviour continues the account will be closed.

There are times when we give more than one warning and there are times when there is no warning given due to the severity of the issue.

We don't want to be harsh and strict but we do want the angry debates and personal attacks to stop.

Did that answer your question? Or close enough?


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## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

oh.. and I said "tightrope walkers" not as specific "who" but a general behaviour pattern. Perhaps I should have said "tightrope walking" rather than "tightrope walkers". But I'm sure you get the gist.


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## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

Would you like us to be more strict?


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Bandit, DKV would immediately demand a public trial and start gathering a cadre of defense witnesses. I would also attempt to have thrown out any evidence that may be damning to me.

Debbie, I know how you could have missed my question. I'm a pretty low key guy and I'm easy to miss in the crowd. I think the dissolution process is fair. However, if the process gets me kicked off the site then I don't think it's fair. Make sense?

Luv ya all


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## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

no political and religious debates. That's pretty clear. 
refrain from starting or taking part in such discussions. That's pretty clear.

and now.. I'm heading out to enjoy my gardens.


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Debbie, great idea. I'm going to start a thread so folks can showcase their gardens and I will expect you to participate. Now, here's the question. Should the pix be restricted to personal gardens or any garden folks see that appeals to them? I will say this. I would prefer to have the rule that all pix need to be personally taken. Nothing out of magazines or off the web.


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

DKV,

You might try GardenTenders!


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## pierce85 (May 21, 2011)

A big thank you to Martin, Debbie, and Nathan. I thought this decision would never come.


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

ChuckV, Ooooooooooo, a whole new site. Bummer though that they don't have a nongarden forum. I just might lobby for one. I still think we should have a thread to see if any of the LJs here have a green thumb.


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

There are quite a few members of LJs who are also on GTs.


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## Sawkerf (Dec 31, 2009)

Knickknack-
You're quite right - as far as you went, but MsDebbie seemed to introduce some ambiguity. Since she still seems to be dancing around the questions, I guess it's just "Pay your money and take your chance". The rules will be enforced in whatever arbitrary manner whichever moderator chooses. And I thought Quantum Mechanics was confusing. - lol


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## KnickKnack (Aug 20, 2008)

The rules will be enforced in whatever arbitrary manner whichever moderator chooses.

So there *will* still be a level of anarchy - excellent!


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Now the race begins….How many Flags will it take? Who will get the most Flags? Will there be a running tally sheet, or leaderboard, so we can keep track of who is be "Bad"?

Rules need a referee to enforce, maybe a whole crew. Now, who will get the "Thumb" for "bumping the umpire" and get sent to the showers? Will there be a "Replay Ref." to decide the close calls some will no doubt be guilty of? Maybe a "play-by-play" done by some Famous Talking Head? What about the whistles, will we hear a whistle every time there is a "Foul" called?

Here is an Idea, for those on the tightrope: Start a forum of your own, and call it the Woodshed. That's where the switch a bad child goes to get for a whipping goes. Make your own rules for the site, about like the Tavern was on the OLD Fine Wood Working Knots was. Have a sign at the home page: Enter at own Risk.

So many fun ideas, so little time, sigh….


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Chipmunk, are you denigrating my education? 4-12 were at a "private catholic school". However, my mom was not the second grade teacher…she was the school cook and I saw her everyday in the lunchroom.

Katdaddy, man up and name names instead of the weak "3 or 4 on this thread that are being…". Have you personally expanded "bad boy" status to also include "being difficult"? I thought it was just politics and religion.


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

"Our life is frittered away by detail." 
- H. Thoreau

"It Depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is." 
- B. Clinton
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4XT-l-3y0&feature=playerdetailpage


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## Sawkerf (Dec 31, 2009)

Katdaddy -
What - in your opinion - is being difficult for the sake of being difficult.? Are questions or comments you don't like signs of "being difficult" - or could they have some validity? I sure hope you aren't that arbitrary with your friends and family.


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## Sawkerf (Dec 31, 2009)

I just finished a couple of months of remodeling my house and am taking a break myself. It's too hot to be outside today so I'm following this topic pretty closely and enjoying the opportunity to needle a few of the self righteous. Glad to provide you with a chuckle. - lol


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

about like summer re-runs, ain't it? Or, like watch Moe, Curly, and Shemp. Somehow, I think the Brothers Howard would win this arguement. Yes I Know Larry Fine was a Part of the Group. He off playing the violin, somewhere….

Being "difficult"....is that like debating NOT whether the Sun comes up in the East, but when it shows up at this house, or that house. And then crying that the sun came up over someone else's house first, claiming …"IT AIN"T FAIR!"

Huey--Dewey---Louie


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## pierce85 (May 21, 2011)

Sawkerf and Chipmunk,

You both appear to be the most wounded by this decision given your responses. My sincere condolences. In any event, it seems you have only two options:

1. Accept it and enjoy the site for what it is, a woodworking forum that focuses on the craft of woodworking.
2. Reject it and find another site (or create your own) to discuss religion and politics or whatever else suits your non-woodworking fancy.

It's not all doom and gloom if you think about it. Look at this as an opportunity rather than a defeat. Create your own site and bill it as a place that embraces contentious politics and religion for woodworkers. It would certainly be a unique site, no?


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## rance (Sep 30, 2009)

I expect this is your Abbott

Debbie, how many moderators are there? I'm not asking names, just a count?


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

For someone that doth not object to the new way of things here, one doth protest too much, methinks. The above is a case in point(less) that is going on in this thread. About like telling a kid to be quiet, and the kid spends the next hour or more (in this case) saying how he/she knows how to be quiet. OVer, and over, and over, yet again.

That Mars Lander will have better results at finding Intelligent Life on Mars, than it would if it landed in this thread.

"Beam me up Scotty! Nothing down here worth looking at, anymore"

See you later? Not if I see you first…..


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)




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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

18 - 6 = ?


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## pierce85 (May 21, 2011)

Chipmunk,

It sounds like you'd be much more happy traversing through your own site, applying your own rules as you see fit, and engaging in your own brand of discourse than fighting a lost battle here on Lumberjocks. Life doesn't always go as according to plan and you have choices. The beauty of having choices is the option of NOT answering questions simply because they've been asked.

You'll survive this disappointment, Chipmunk. Trust me…


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## RibsBrisket4me (Jul 17, 2011)

Nathan,

BRAVO, BRAVO, BRAVO--THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

Gee Chipmunk,
I see there is a space on your homepage for you to place your website…....but hey, for someone to state they have had one for 3 years…..........you haven't displayed it.
If you would display it, maybe some of us could respond to you on "your" website, so you could quit the tearjerking and ranting on THIS website, and respect the moderators decision.
Maybe even good Ol' Joe, who has you blocked (for good reason based on your rants here), would show up over there and lead you down the path of civility.
But then again everyone that would visit your website, and comment, would, as usual, be branded a racist.
You have proven, by your posts here, just how correct the moderators decision was to censor the OT forum. I couldn't agree more.
In fact I looked at all your posts in the 202 days since you joined here and 95% are political rants…..... 5% maybe related to woodworking. That pretty much answers why you continue to protest their new rules.
You're here only to create and promote arguments, and personal attacks.
It's getting old.


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## Fejus (Sep 27, 2011)

As a new user that had started to not come too the site because of all of the religious/political argument threads …....THANK YOU!!!!!!


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

Gee Chippy,

That pretty much says it all.
The moderators had it right all along. You're a perfect example of why they are censoring.
You really don't have a website. Just argumentative bluster.
Have a good night.


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## joewilliams (Aug 1, 2012)

@Jim C ......+1


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## OnlyJustME (Nov 22, 2011)

Nice is to mean socially acceptable. Lumber Jocks(LJs) is it's own society/community. The members of LJs ( or the society) will flag the not "nice" (or socially unacceptable) posts or threads to be raised to the attention of the moderators/owners. Then the moderators/owners or judges will determine (judge) if it should remain on their website and take action accordingly.

Simple enough for you Chipmunk?


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

Just curious, but who the hell are you?

As far as I can tell your just some guy claiming to be incharge. Your not bolded or anything that differentiates you to be someone in charge?


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## JollyGreen67 (Nov 1, 2010)

WOW ! Nathan, you started something uncontrollable - just like I did.


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## Bagtown (Mar 9, 2008)

Thanks Nathan, Martin and MsDebbie.
Long overdue.

Mike


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Just don't know when to say "When?" Aka… the LONGGGGGG Goodbye?

Question, if you will? Why so bloody angry? Did someone pee in your Wheaties?

Well, don't go away mad, Girl, just…..go away…..


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

Manuel's English:


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

OP=Admin? (TL;DR)
.
If not, LOL.
.
If so…..

*Release the ban hammer! *









.
Truth is, you're either the boss, you want to be the boss, or you resent the boss. Either way, you don't make the rules. There's no democracy in capitalism and I love it. I'm completely surprised that I haven't been IP life banned. I dislike what's happened here but I'm not the site admin, so I don't count. That's life.


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## OnlyJustME (Nov 22, 2011)

I see. Now that you have gotten the all important answer you've been hounding on about you suddenly state you have moved on, yet here you still are bantering on. 
Feel free to use the flag system, it is there to be used and unfortunately you are a part of this society so your opinion to what nice is counts too. 
Have fun woodworking and good day.


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## OnlyJustME (Nov 22, 2011)

I said Good Day!


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

I guess that's my answer. Have fun guys (serious).


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)




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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

I am sad to see politics go and religion too but I will abide as the dude always does.

Poopiecat You blocked me because I made a suggestion that you not use metal shelf supports on you fine bookcases. Oh and I joked with you about the color you chose to paint the nice case work. I thought I was helping you from degrading your work. I have apologized and reached out to you and still cant post on topics you write that interest me. If I had known you were not open to constructive criticism I would not have tried to educate you. I am sorry if I hurt your feelings and would like to be able to join in your conversations on woodworking.

One thing for sure my time on the site will go way down I still have a few threads I will follow every day but I will be looking to spend my extra time that I used to spend here somewhere else. That does not mean I wont be here daily I have friends here and some people I hate as well. But as long as the topics are on topic there is little to fight about. Although I recall the worst fight I ever saw here was an on topic fight about the 5 cut method versus some other method of making sure your miter sled is square. Now that was a vicious fight and people left LJ and I think they have never come back. So while this move may cure a few spats and some name calling there will still be some folks who get heated over everything they talk about. You cant censor attitude.

In all reality I came here first and foremost to help people with shop problems and my tool knowledge.I have over 40 years in the shop and I want to pass my knowledge along to others, so that will be what I get back to. If I give you constructive criticism and it offends you I will say up front it is not my intention to hurt your feelings.I like to help People it is my life mission to help. One thing I have learned recently some people would rather flounder on their own than be given any help. If this is you just say so Ill leave you to your own devises. But I will ask you why you came here if not to learn.

Now I am going back to the real action The Hand Plane thread

The Dude


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## CL810 (Mar 21, 2010)

Thanks Nathan!


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## stonedlion (Jan 12, 2011)

I think it's the only sane choice that could be made under the circumstances.

If you look at my profile you can see that i have only a hundred and umpteen posts in 578 days. the reason for that is when I first found Lumberjocks I was absolutely turned off by the fighting and lack of civility. I decided that LJ's was not any place I wanted to spend time and I spent a year away from the site, having written it off.

If I wanted to fight I could got to CL R&R and get my cookie.


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## OnlyJustME (Nov 22, 2011)

You will never be satisfied.


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## mojapitt (Dec 31, 2011)

Thank you. I sadly agree with the move.


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## NathanW (Mar 11, 2008)

We let it ride for a bit but I think the Evolution topic is really just a religion topic in disguise. A lot of the comments there are not straight science and again we don't want to get into religious debates. Let's move on.


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## Doss (Mar 14, 2012)

Agreed *Nathan*.

There are several topics that are known hot buttons for religious response. This is really no different than posting a Pro-Life or Pro-Choice topic in my opinion.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

Nathan
Close the evolution topic.
The guy's home page, showing his posts, reveal he's only here to encourage bomb-throwing arguments. His last thought is woodworking.
Your actions have already brought LJ's back to a semblance of civility. Great decision, as although I was at times drawn into the fray, it would have brought this site down to a yahoo anarchistic free-for-all.
Thanks


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## EPJartisan (Nov 4, 2009)

I got word this thread was going on… HEY…nice to see Neil back here.
As for the rest… YAY … just call me a "grey area" and leave me alone and all will be well.
I am guilty.. I apologize….
I am leery… I am doubtful…
but thank you..


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

I like cake…...


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## kaschimer (Nov 10, 2011)

i don't recall ever consciously participating in any such antics on LJ. I know it went on. I would read through such posts, but never got sucked into the melee.

I think it's a fine idea. This is a woodworking site. Let's hear opinions about projects, wood, tools, finishes, etc. If I want to hear opinions and/or rants about politics or religion, I'll go to a different site. This is my hobby, and let me be blunt. When I come here, I don't care about *your* politics or *your* religion.

So I stand and applaud the decision. It will make a little more work for any moderators, but it will be better for the overall mood and tension around here…


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## ClintSearl (Dec 8, 2011)

Aaww, you're taking all the fun away just to accommodate the sensibilities of those who have difficulty handling the bad and the ugly. But it's your party, and no one has to stay.


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## dakremer (Dec 8, 2009)

I disagree with this move too….Looks like the "complainers" won….again. What a joke


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## S4S (Jan 22, 2011)

I agree with dak and Clint .


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## George_SA (May 4, 2012)

The new rules make sense. I visit this forum for woodworking related issues and for that reason I don't really go to the off topic forum. There are plenty of forums on the internet where politics and religion can be discussed, so the banning of them on this forum is not a real loss.

Fortunately, to date, I have only had interaction with friendly and courteous people who show respect. To the owners of this site, thanks for a good platform where I have learned quite a lot about woodworking. Keep up the good work.


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## Zepe (Dec 17, 2007)

Although I am not an active participant, I do enjoy reading the content of this site and also do not like the malice that sometimes prevails. I think it's a wise move because when someone attacks a persons beliefs it's the same as attacking the person.

Z


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## George_SA (May 4, 2012)

The following piece of wisdom describes the situation quite accurately:

"Anyone who loves his opinions more than he does his brethren will defend his opinions and destroy his brethren." 
Unknown


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## CarvinTom (Aug 12, 2011)

I hate to see that it has to come to this. People can be pretty disgusting in public but the "Wild West" nature of the Internet provided by anonymity make the situation even worse.

There are plenty of other places where people can shoot of their mouths as much as they want, let's keep Lumberjocks an "oasis" with the type of calm that most of us find in woodworking.


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## Karson (May 9, 2006)

Thanks Nathan.


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## Porchfish (Jun 20, 2011)

I'm with Dak, Clint ,and Moment ! And Brad, I am a Jim Gaffigan and Julio Iglesis fan too ! Give me the cake !
I don't appreciate censorship in any form, but I also oppose bullying and I have experienced the attempt to belittle and brow beat. I have ignored such on more than one occasion . I do not like someone else determining whom I should ignore. I noticed that work of a religious nature will of course continue to be accepted (and rightfully so) but no mention was made of the same acceptability of work of a political nature. We live and work in the real world, and some of the people in this world are what we might agree are less than sterling examples of the best humankind has to offer. That doesn't mean we can or should isolate ourselves from the rest of the world. I have met and had exchanges with some real jack-ass types on our wonderful site, but I will be the first, to admit that the most obnoxious person is also a very talented individual that I would hate to see go elsewhere. There is room for all. Tolerance should be the rule , not the problem. Now that I have had my say I will of course abide by rules regardless of what I think of them !  don s.


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## Manitario (Jul 4, 2010)

Finally!


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Quote Chipmunk: *How childish can you be. Do you really think people can not compare your comments in post number 250 and your previous comment in post number 248. Who do you wish to pretend the first five sentences in the first comment were directed to? 
Grow up!*
.

*Post 248*: 
OP=Admin? (TL;DR) (is the original poster an administrator? the post was too long and I didn't read it all)
.
If not, LOL. (if he's not, then I'm laughing out loud)
.
If so…..(if he is an administrator)

Release the ban hammer! (some people are about to get banned)

Truth is, you're either the boss, you want to be the boss, or you resent the boss. Either way, you don't make the rules. There's no democracy in capitalism and I love it. I'm completely surprised that I haven't been IP life banned. I dislike what's happened here but I'm not the site admin, so I don't count. That's life.
.

*Post 250*: 
I guess that's my answer. Have fun guys (serious).
.
I fail to see the childish disconnect you point out. I first responded that if the OP was an administrator, there would likely be some banning. If not an administrator, then it is all without consequence. I followed this by my personal thoughts on the matter. Then I wished you all a good one.
.
I added explanations to my comments above, as they were a bit cryptic. I would like for you to point out the childish disconnect there. We can get together one day and compare obligations and responsibilities. I assure you that I'm all grown up.


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## LittlePaw (Dec 21, 2009)

I have enjoyed being a contributing member of LJ from day one. Since then, the site has become more and more non "woodworking" related. While I think there is a place for all the other non woodworking related subjects, I don't think LJ is the place for it. There are plenty of other sites for them. I for one would prefer keeping LJ as the name suggests - lumber jocks - meaning, to me, those who love working on wood with our hands and with the help of some hand-held non-power and power tools. I think this move is a positive one and I fully support it. Thanx, LJ!


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## phtaylor36 (Jun 13, 2011)

It's for the best! There are thousands of chat rooms where people can voice their opinion. Freedom of speech is not compromised here. This is a woodworking website, and so far I feel it's the best one, so let's talk about wood! Someday maybe my kids can look in here and see all the things that have been created and the woodworking friends I've made.


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## dennis62 (Jul 8, 2012)

I agree 100%. This is a woodworking site, atleast thats what I thought when I joined. If you want to debete politics or religion, there are 100's of other sites for that. This almost feels like I'm going to my childs ball game. The kids have all the fun the adults yell about who's _ their going to kick. We all need to look at ourselfs and grow up.


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## Gator (May 2, 2008)

I come to this site for the interaction with woodworking, and not religious or political debates. There is a time and a place for everything, and I support the moderators 100%.

This is just one more reason why this is the best site .. WORLDWIDE .. without a doubt.

Gator


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## OldMarine (Mar 6, 2012)

I understand the new rules and see the need for them. Some folks just can't play nice.

However, who or what was forcing anyone to view or participate in "Off Topic" posts?

If you were drawn there like a moth to a flame, you have a problem. I can't grasp the "Protect me from myself" mentality that seems to permeate our society. Whatever happened to personal responsibility?


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## phk (Oct 24, 2011)

I am relatively new to Lumberjocks and I have to say I was totally unaware that anyone would even consider discussing politics and religion on a site like this. That just boggles my mind. There are enough places on the web that cater to those topics. There's no reason for this site to accommodate those discussions. I fully support this policy change. Let's just make sawdust here.


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## 58j35bonanza (Jan 11, 2011)

I think it is a great move. This is a woodworking site, people seem to forget that. There are so many political and religious site to vent opinions. Again great move!


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## Doe (Aug 26, 2010)

Thank you. I think you've handled this issue well, and in a sensitive way. Often the action to stop an issue spoils things for other people who are courteous and behave well. I expect that this won't eliminate the problem-human nature being what it is, but it should be much better.

Doe


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## WinterSun (Apr 3, 2011)

I haven't been around much lately as other life happenings have kept me out of the shop and taken up most of my time, but I think this is a move in the right direction. My ideal solution would be to allow CIVIL discussion of P&R topics, with little to no mercy for people who can't keep it civil. Unfortunately, this would require a much more active moderation presence in order to work effectively. There's no point if things get out of hand on a thread at 10 AM and no mod gets to it until 2 PM. By that point, you've got 39 posts of crazy, and the damage is done. While I always tried to avoid the P&R threads, it was obvious that sentiments from those topics were spilling over into on-topic discussions. It's best just to keep this stuff out of the forum if people can't behave.

A couple other things I've noticed while going through this thread:
- There are enough people here who just enjoy arguing and calling others names, regardless of whether it's a P&R topic or not. This site (and society in general) would be so much better off if people would just relax a bit.
- Some people need to read up on the concept of "freedom of speech." (hint: he who runs the site, makes the rules. Don't like it? Tough. Go somewhere else.)


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## Woodbum (Jan 3, 2010)

OUTSTANDING!! I agree wholeheartedly with your move. This is not infriging on anyone's free speech. To paraphrase my old man " Your site-your rules". Let the whining begin.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

^Woodbum, agreed. I also like reptiles, for the record (re your avatar). Dazzle your friends with the little known fact that reptiles have nucleated red blood cells. Human blood cells are only nucleated during production, i.e. development. For you science guys, I know there are exceptions, hematopoesis and all, so don't attack me. Anyway, it smells like evolution to me! Lol. I would say have fun in here but I've already been called out for that
.
Edit: I admit, this post was baiting, thus trolling. I apologize.


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## OldMarine (Mar 6, 2012)

Mammals are the only vertebrates with non-nucleated mature blood cells.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Makes you wonder, doesn't it, Jim. Is developmental expulsion of your DNA the wave of the future?


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## dakremer (Dec 8, 2009)

Hgt X 3 = Hct


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Dakremer for the win!
.


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## Philzoel (Dec 26, 2011)

Good move. This site is about enjoying wood and working wood. Get a life if you need to argue about that.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

I am curious as to how this has effected traffic on the site I dont think the moderators are watching this thread any longer but if they are I would like to know the stats.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Dude, this thread's been dead a long time. Now we're just goofing around like all threads that die. You'll see above, though, that I was accused of being childish. That's the only reason I'm still hanging around, waiting for a response.


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## pierce85 (May 21, 2011)

Dude, it's only been a week. That's not anywhere near enough time to show anything meaningful regarding traffic on this site. I applauded the decision and if my activity on Lumberjocks over the past week is any indication of traffic trends due to this decision, which it is not, the servers would likely be melting.

Everyone - get over it. Martin, Nathan, and Debbie have made their decision and it's not going to change. As Nathan stated:

"…we have made up our mind on the Politics and Religion debates and I'm sorry to say we wont be changing them."


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

Bertha,
Me too, me too
Dead thread, but watching the fallout.
Back to woodworking Monday.


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## mandatory66 (Jul 26, 2012)

I am a new member and have read a few off topic blogs and I was surprised to find political comment on a wood working site. I feel that there are plenty of political comment sites where this commentary would be more appropriate. I see this stuff on TV and listen to it at times on the radio. When I come here it is for knowledge & enjoyment, I commend your decision.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

Al let me guess It was Chipmunk right?


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## madts (Dec 30, 2011)

No, it was the Dudster!


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

madts Al is a friend I would never insult a friend


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Dude, I really like the author of the post I mentioned. If you search my posts (good luck, lol), you'll see that I've always treated him with respect. I simply thought his charge was inaccurate, nothing more. I wasn't exactly up last night thinking about it. Instead, I was tending to the homestead. Just like all us adults were.


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## SirFatty (May 5, 2012)

Thanks for this, I fully agree with and support your decision!


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## 502flier (Mar 1, 2012)

Not everyone can agree on any subject, as is proven by this thread. It is unfortunate that rules have to be in place, but it helps to make a useful, entertaining, and educational site for the majority that don't require rules to co-exist and can use this site as it was intended.

Good call.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

I suppose one could say that there are many woodworking sites with highly censored forums, managed by heavy-handed moderators. Go there, sign up, participate THERE, if you're uncomfortable with off-topic discussions. Why come to Lumberjocks, the best woodworking site on the 'net, and then complain that it isn't just like all those less-friendly other sites?

Jeez, reminds me of all those people who moved to Maine from Massachusetts and Connecticut to escape killer taxes, crime, and unbearable cost of living,....and then launch into endless complaints as to why Maine is not as good a place to live because of this and that….sheesh…


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## dakremer (Dec 8, 2009)

I won? 

(reviewing my last post…it should have read HgB X 3 = Hct)


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

*Martin, Nathan, and Debbie*
.
The above is what's been missing for me. Martin, I know as the site owner. Reasonable gentleman, proven. Debbie, I know and admire for genuine peacekeeping and general friendliness. Wonderful lady, from what I've seen. Nathan, is new to me; hence my post that drew scorn. 
.
Hello, Nathan! I'm Al. 
.
I think everyone that's sided with the admin from the start should get their name bolded, or something similarly heroic. Arm patches are expensive to mail. 
.
Yes, Dak, you did win. Start climbing that hill, lol, dig deep and you'll find me. And yes, Poopie, give an inch and we'll take a yard. I'm a member of an internet forum that's owned and hosted by someone that's not me. I haven't paid a cent for my 11k+ posts and if the site owner says I have to change my avatar, I either $ or get off the pot.


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## dakremer (Dec 8, 2009)

I won…and I'm the king? This is a great day…..a great day indeed


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

What did you win a qupie doll?


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## Gary (Jul 24, 2006)

I haven't participated in the political discussions here so I'm not really affected.
However, I think it's the wrong approach to stop them.
I think twofold approach is better:
1. Make political threads an opt-in and by default have members opted out.
2. Leave the political threads to those who opt-in and observe only the complaints.
When a clearly abusive person displays their lack of self-control and abuses others, toss them off LJ.
You could have an increasing scale of time-outs: 1st offense, 30 days; 2nd offense, 90; 3rd-gone permanent.

As to Joe Lyddons's question about hacking someone's ID, all I can say is: make a stronger password.
In today's computing environment, if you don't have a strong password, you're a victim. Period. It's a rough cyber world out there. If they can take your LJ ID, they can probably get into your email, CC's and who knows what else.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

Gary, that is not how it was done. They did not access the other guys account they simply took the name of the user and it confused the software some how. It should not be an issue our names should not be changeable and thus we would not have this issue of people stealing your user name.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

I might add the perpetrator also copied his avatar so it looked like the original guy. Easy to do but unethical and childish.


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## LittlePaw (Dec 21, 2009)

Good move. I totally support it. I am for keeping LJ on things related to wood working. Isn't that why it is called "Lumber Jocks" not anything else?


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

I think its funny that we cant talk politics but the site is running advertisements for the Romney campaign.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

^lol, Dude. I noticed that too. Whatever sells, man. I've got no beef with a guy advertising the way he wants.


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## OnlyJustME (Nov 22, 2011)

I use AdBlocker so i don't see any ads.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

I really need to install that, Matt. I've got it on my big rigs but on this lousy netbook, it just slows things down too much (already slow as molasses). I'm considering switching to a tablet, but I type well. I don't want to haul around a keyboard. Are there tablets with built in keyboards? Sorry for hijack. 
.
Still waiting about how I'm a child.


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## jmos (Nov 30, 2011)

I believe the ads are mostly based on your browsing history. About 75% of the time I get ads that are directly related to something I looked up recently, or related to something. I'm getting a lot of travel related stuff now; doing preliminary planning for next years vacation.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

I'm on a Macbook Pro.
Ya gotta get one Bertha. You'll never look back.Easy to haul (I have the 15"), installed adblocker, no loss of speed and absolutely ad free.
I would never go back to any windows based system. I make movies and trailers and it has never crashed in 6 years.
(Knock on wood)


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Ahhh, Jim, I know this, man. Like everyone else, I've been using the excuse that I've got a ton of computers, all windows based. I like to build computers and every time I do, I think I should be jumping ship.
.
I did a year of training where we used nothing but Macs. This was back in…Jeez, 2000 maybe? They were superior then; I can only imagine what they're like now.
.
Expensive, but what itsn't. Maybe I should pull the trigger. Speaking of triggers, though, I blew my fun money this month on a handgun. I'll consider this. Thanks Jim.
.
Jmos, I agree with you completely. I'm all over Amazon, Overstock, Tiger, NewEgg, etc. Whatever I search for shows up immediately here. Luckily, I'm a porn star and don't have to search for it. That would be embarrassing in the margin of your laptop at Starbucks, lol


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## pierce85 (May 21, 2011)

They're targeted ads based on page content, which highlights another advantage to the no politics decision - no more political ads. So the sooner we stop beating this dead horse the sooner political ads disappear.

And LJ is not selling ad space to political groups. The ad client that LJ uses to generate revenue for the site is selling ad space to political groups.


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## OnlyJustME (Nov 22, 2011)

I think the fact that you are still waiting about how you are a child is very childish. LOL

I can't help ya with the tablet info since i'm behind the times in that tech. The tablet i have still requires a pen for use.

I think jmos is correct on how the ads work so if you are seeing political ads then that does not mean that LJ is selling ad space to political groups.

I just couldn't get over how much more expensive Mac software was then pc so i've always gone with pc. Been thinking about trying linux on it though.


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## jmos (Nov 30, 2011)

Apple screwed me bad in college, took over $1000 of my money for a 128k Mac (no hard drives back in '85) that I was required to buy and then dropped all support for them right after delivery. even though I bought the computer I ended up having to go to the computer lab to do all my assignments. I'll never give those thieves my money again.

My Wife has one, she loves it, but I'm too stubborn and hold a grudge too long to give in. I have considered trying Linux though.

Now, if I can just figure out why I occasionally get those women's underwear ads…


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

I have ads blocked. I'm wondering if there any advertisements for particular religions.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Matt, lol, I fear that you're right. Does defending myself against childishness make me adult by default? Good point, lol. That being said, Jmos, I'm pretty good with grudges. My first computer was an apple 2c, the portable one, remember that? Of course, the monitor wasn't that portable but whatever, right? All my friends had Commodore 64's and made fun of me. I guess I vicariously share your grudge.
.
I've built some monster Windows based PCs. i7 liquid overclocked, the works. They're all subject to Windows, unfortunately. XP seemed to be the best. Vista media center probably the best. I run Win7×64 now and it's not terrible. It has all kinds of IT nerd trickery that's totally lost on me. I build computers for the hardware; imagine that


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

lolololol
I ran Linux on a test computer. It was really fast but I'm a slave to Office by now.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

Your right Al xp was solid but so is 7 and 7 is much faster as it manages ram much better stack up the ram only on the 64 bit os . I have 32 gigs of ram on my desktop the thing flys and ram is very cheep now.

In the computer store we see a lot of Macs the only problem they have is they are not sturdy they dont like to be handled rough at all.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

I tend to like a 1) big angry full ATX and 2) something I can carry around easily. The netbook was a perfect discovery. For $300 I can use one for a year, then retire it when it starts bogging down. I punched one and slammed the lid so hard on another that I killed it. Anger issues. I've been getting the Toshibas. Maybe I should look around and get a real laptop with a tiny footprint.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

Al at the shop we sell and believe in Asus they are solid and they have a great warranty Including accidental damage for the first year and a full 2 year warranty.


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## OnlyJustME (Nov 22, 2011)

I have an Asus mb and some other parts in my rig plus the monitor. I find them to be good, reliable and long lasting. The bios is nice too and not constrictive. Of course if you don't know what you are doing in there it's easy to kill other components. I really liked XP Pro and ran it as long as i could but i think 7-x64 pro is much betterer. I haven't gotten BSD more than once since building this system over 3 years ago.

If you get a real laptop though, each anger issue that comes out will cost more. lol I think you could get a tablet for ~$100-$150. do they accept keyboard input? One of those roll up silicone keyboards would help protect it if you wrapped it around the tablet for transport.

Are we getting a little off topic?


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

.
Hijack official. This thread was dead anyway. I hadn't considered a rollup keyboard. Hmmm. I've got a BlackOps mobo in my HTPC (overkill, I know). I clock it up to BSOD in Win7×64 and back down. I just HATE Win7 Media Center. Even Vista was better. Codec friggin nightmare. I'm a big fan of buying a mobo bigger than what I'm building. Like Dude says, RAM only gets cheaper. RAM was a HUGE issue with my blackops. Luckily (?), it's a mobo with a notorious reputation for disliking ram. Corsair ddr3 was the only thing it likes. My i7 was like a prostitute, it would take anything I threw at it. Runs cool as a cucumber without liquid to the gpu. I just don't like buying three bars at a time. SSD for the OS is the best thing that's ever happened. Keeps getting cheaper, too.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

Alright all you guys…......back to english for the rest of us.
Buy an Apple, quit building ozone gadgets, and you'll have more time for woodworking.
Radio Shack is borrrrring.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

ssd is the new standard for fast cpus


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## OnlyJustME (Nov 22, 2011)

SSD will be my next upgrade in a year maybe since it's still not in the budget yet and i just recently upgraded my GPU. 
Yeah i try to buy the best and most future compatible mobo i can afford so it can handle upgrades to all the other components later. Thats why i like my Asus board.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Still trying to got this "ad-block" thingy to work. Firefox version a little slow on catching all the junk. Desk top is by ACER, whatever.

Shoe on the other foot, there, Monk man? Nobody is forcing you to look in on this stuff.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

"*In an avalanche, every snowflake proclaims his innocence*." -Stanislaw Lee.
.
This thread illustrates that point quite nicely….


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

Computers are not on the banned topic list. But I am with you Chipmunk I don't like the new rules very much, but if you start your own page I will come and discuss what ever you want. As long as you play nice.


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## OnlyJustME (Nov 22, 2011)

Chipmunk
I use my computer to design woodworking pieces and view this website so it actually has some use in woodworking.
Secondly no one was arguing or disputing anything and we were all civil and nice to each other. Also no one mentioned anything political or religious so we have followed the posting rules. 
Unfortunately you on the other hand come here to start arguments and instigate trouble and with bold faced type. You will never be satisfied with anything but an argument. Go peddle your childish ways else where. 
Thank you and Good Day.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

*The chip

He awoke from the Coma of being denied verbally abusing everyone.
Shucks, I was just starting to enjoy civll discourse again. His meds wore off.*
Too bad for all of us.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

Jim I am too rough on my computers to buy a mac. I work at a computer store for my friend when he needs help and the shop is full of mac books that people closed too hard and it just quit working. I will stick with Asus it is the best out there.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

Dude,
That's like saying you would love to play the violin, but because you're rough, you opted for a harmonica. It's a precision instrument. Treat it as such.

Buy a Mac, encase it with maple or oak. Good to go.
Problem solved.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

Jim, I am not a fan of the mac os either. I know they are cool and I know some people love them. I am just not one of them. I prefer a truck to a car too and I like my stuff rugged and I like to use windows 7 it is just my choice. I have broke lots of laptops in the past and have had this Asus for a couple of years. I like it a lot.

Chipmunk, Look man there is no need for you to get nasty. These people Just don't like the way you act. You think the part of the world that does not agree or that doesn't write as well as you do are stupid. Einstein was a bad writer too do you actually think you were as smart as him? I don't think so. I think your a good voice for your cause what ever it is. But politics are dead here and you should open up your own woodworking site that allows free speech. Once they find it lots of people will join just for the free speech. I know I would.


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## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

be civil guys.
1. You could start a new forum discussion re: computers and leave this discussion for those who are reading the rules for the first time
2. Things have been calm around here; please do not start the name calling and personal attacks .


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## HamS (Nov 10, 2011)

I believe it was Aristotle who defined politics as the sum of the human experience. Although we have changed the definition to be the sum of the human experience in exercising authority, it really is the art of people. I know that this is sort of a duh moment, but almost every discussion has a level of political content to it, because we cannot escape our natural inclination and bias toward a certain method of governance. In fact this entire thread is a political discussion, because it is clearly about how we in this community will be governed.

However, I suppose the situation is similar to the defining obscenity. It is extremly difficult to define it, but very easy to recognize it when you see it.

I suspect that the thrust of this is to ban proselytizing and arguing, not necessarily mention of political or religious points. I understand there have been issues, but I am quite capable of ignoring the people I choose to ignore.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

Hey Jim How about you start the computer thread ?


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## bvd (Mar 6, 2012)

Although I did not know there was any topic but wood working. I am glad that the problem was solved, or at least moving in the right direction. I am here to learn about wood working from these guys. Although I do not post many comments I am always looking at the great carpentry work and I love looking at photos of the others shops. I'm pretty much a loner but I like wood working guys; Keep up the good work.


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## dnick (Nov 17, 2011)

I never understood the off topic anyway. I joined this website to learn & share about wood, woodworking techniques & tools. I get frustrated when I click on forums & see half the page is off topic. Not what I came here for. There must be a million other websites you can talk about your other interests, don't need it here.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

The only topics that are gone are religion and Politics the rest is fair game for now


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

*Hey, some of you people are ruining my woodworking experience. This is a woodworking site,
woodworking only. This site is not for discussing computers. We woodworkers don't care whether you like Mac or PC…it's not woodworking.*
.
Look at title of the thread, Chipmunk. Is that woodworking?


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

*Not what I came here for. *
.
Did you notice the title? Why did you click?


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

*Did you notice the title? Why did you click?*

Well, Nathan did say "Please". I can usually resist that, but when it is "With Sugar on Top", there is no way to refuse!


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

I have to say, chipmunks post was tongue-in-cheek.
His only mistake was commenting in bold, which makes one think he's throwing pots and pans against the kitchen walls while typing. ;-)


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Good point, ChuckV.
I think you're right, JimC. I genuinely like the guy.
I think this thread is unhealthy for me. I'm going to get gone.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

jim did you start the computer thread Al has left the building


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

Whose Al?


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## BentheViking (May 19, 2011)

finally


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## derosa (Aug 21, 2010)

Aww.. but I was looking for an argument on why macs suck as badly as they do. For me it always came down to one simple thing, mmorgs. Couldn't stand to wait the extra months for companies to develop them for apple if they ever bothered to. Made for an easy choice that I can't move past now that the wife has made me stop gaming; as far as she knows.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

Birtha Is Al He is not a girl


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

Not that there is anything wrong with being female


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## bobcol (May 6, 2012)

362 comments and what has been achieved. There would have been no need to change rules or make new rules if the Administraters had been running their website as they now want tit and banned the political and religious comments as they were posted. I must be the odd man out as I am here for the wood working posts and so far have not seen a post that would upset me but reading the previous 362 comments I'm sure there are some members who would relish the opportunity argue and carry thing further. Lets get on with what th site is all about.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

*I don't get it!*
Having worked in a number of woodworking shops of every type, the last thing I ever hear is woodworking discussions among my co-workers. Even if there was a national gathering of Lumberjocks, the conversations would instantly drift toward sports, vacations, cars, family, and yes, politics and religion. Nobody will discuss woodworking. 
Heck, I have a much better chance discussing woodworking when I'm among my wife's colleagues, all those stuffy CPAs at staff events wishing to embark on their first woodworking project. I'm a bit flattered by it, but it's the same old tedious questions like what saw should I buy, where do I get plans, what wood should I use???? Though I'm happy to answer their questions and chat with them, I'd really rather chat about off-topic stuff with other seasoned woodworkers… just like we do here. Just like in real life. *Anybody naive enough to think that all woodworkers want to do is talk about woodworking, well you're gonna be disappointed! It's not all about you, after all…. *


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## Doss (Mar 14, 2012)

*poopiekat*, I agree with you about shoptalk in an actual shop in person. The problem is with the anonymity provided by the internet that some of the civil talk quickly falls away with attacks and shouting.

If you act like a jerk in person, most likely you will get some feedback and you'll probably get the point not to act like that. On the internet, you can say it with little fear of any sort of retribution.

I do think some people on here deliberately escalate the hostility just to get a reaction (trolling).

So, it's not that we're that naive, it's just that few of us actually want to deal with it when we're on a woodworking forum (because most of us get enough of it in real life).


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

+1 to both of you.


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## OldMarine (Mar 6, 2012)

I do think* some people* on here deliberately escalate the hostility just to get a reaction (trolling).

And they insult and block you when you call them on it. Childish.


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## juniorjock (Feb 3, 2008)

If there is a nail…........ Jim just hit it.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

poopiecat unblock me and i will tell you about woodworking if thats what you want to talk about but in honesty that means learning to improve our projects through constructive criticism. I dont belive that your into being told how to improve your work instead you are more into atta boys that gets boring real quick. When I post a project I would rather be told how to fix my shortcomings . And how to be a better woodworker. how my joinery could be better how I could make my choice of finish more pleasing to the eye.
So if your really wanting to talk wood lets do that


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Dude, why do you beg people to unblock you? You've asked poopiekat and Joe a number of times. If they have you blocked there is a reason for them to have done it whether you agree or not. I don't really care who has blocked me and you should feel the same. Period. The end. Get over it. Have some self respect.


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## WoodenFrog (Jun 4, 2010)

I just ran into this topic, I do not believe in talking about those subjects at all, Really
I just want to say I love this site and I normally only use the projects page, I almost always try to use praise of someones project(s) I believe that whatever someone posts is worth some sort of praise or at least a kind comment. some people post a project that to them was very good maybe everyone does not see it that way but they tried and it may be the best they can do at that point with their skillset, tools and materials.

I was raised to be kind to the best of your ability, Do onto others the way you want them to do onto you!
Also if you have nothing nice to say leave your mouth shut, and say nothing at all!

Just my 2 cents worth! 
I want to say again* THANK YOU!* for this site!! I love it!

--Robert


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

LOL*..."I will tell you about woodworking"....*thanks for the reminder… lest I forget…


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## muleskinner (Sep 24, 2011)

Poopiekat - however do you get by?


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Anybody watch The Newsroom on HBO Sunday? Now that's how all debates should be conducted. Problem is no one would debate if they knew the truth was required.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

*WoodenFrog*: Thanks! You definitely have the right idea about responses to project postings! I have always felt that when expressing an opinion here, you can expect an obnoxious reply here and there, but when you post a project you have completed, it is NOT fair game for unwarranted criticism or other contemptuous responses. It should indeed be considered sacred! Especially when it is clearly mentioned that the project was constructed as a much-needed gift for a hard-working couple, and was constructed with materials at hand. Sheesh! I could build a museum-quality bookcase, post it here, and still expect oafish critique from certain members. And why should anyone call it a 'grudge' unless they are totally clueless about the situation that happened. Katdaddy *(NOT Muleskinner!)* should suffer a few mean-spirited comments on his projects, then we'd see if his opinion changes.


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

"Sheesh!", poopiekat I've not heard that word since I last visited my mom.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

*DKV:* I was just reading a handful of old 'Dagwood and Blondie' comics… *"Sheesh*" was the anticlimactic punch line for several episodes…


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## muleskinner (Sep 24, 2011)

PoopieKat - I think you misread my meaning.


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## muleskinner (Sep 24, 2011)

Poopiekat - I think you misread my meaning. Let's just say that if I knew a sarcasm emoticon I would have used it. And the sarcasm was not directed at you.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

Muleskinner: Ooops okay, I understand how easily a person's words might be misconstrued. Ah, well, when ye lyeth with dogs, ye shall rise with fleas… And i know that there are a few classic turnip-heads that lurk here, just gotta deal with it. The good definitely outweighs the bad, which is why I'll still participate here. My apology! Edited above^.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

Poopiecat I recommended you use something other than metal tracks to adjust your shelves and that I didn't like the color. you said it was the choice of the person you made the shelves for. My comment was not mean It was constructive you made a nice set of shelves you using the metal brackets made it look cheep and not well made. Which it clearly was. You could teach me a few thing and I could teach you a few things. I think you should stop the madness and try to get along with me.

DKV again you think people should act the way you do. If we all did you would be the only one that was happy about it. What you clearly don't get is I like Poopiecat I think I could learn a lot from him But he has blocked me and I can only talk to him on other peoples topics. So I could talk to him about your camels but I can join in when he actually wants to talk about woodworking.

As far as treat others the way you would want to be treated. I do that to perfection. I don't want candy coated obligatory atta boys. If my project has a serious flaw in design or in execution. Being told what you have done wrong is how people learn. Aside from Not being able to talk to Poopie I will bet he learned something by my comment. I will bet you he wont choose metal shelf supports on his wonderful case work. Because it clearly took away from the high level of craftsmanship the rest of the project displayed.

And lastly Poopie I had no way of knowing you were so sensitive If you really don't want to learn what people think of your work your being naive about how the world really is. People judge you behind your back I choose to be honest and judge people to their face . I choose to do it this way because I only expect honest feedback I don't want candy coated lies and then finding out that that piece I worked so hard on sucked . No I would much rather be told the truth. Honesty above all else.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

Dude… for the last time, you must be able to, among 46,000 other Lumberjocks, to find a few who like the cut of your jib. I'm just not one of them.


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Dude, you're embarrassing yourself. Give it up. He does NOT want to be your friend.


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## bobcol (May 6, 2012)

Why in the hell don't the Administrators end this blog, I have never read so much crap and it looks like your changing the rules have achieved NOTHING these clowns will always find something to argue about.


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Bob, not that it should matter to you but we can talk about whatever we want to talk about. Sorry it bothers your squeamish sensibilities. (edited)


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

This is soooo much better LOL


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

It is called a robe, Bob and JC wore one. I wear mine for quick access.


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

Bob? The guy from the Enzyte commercial?


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Nathan, the below headline is from USA Today. Do you think it might be a sign that politics and religion should not have been banned? Seems to me Someone is speaking…It could be a sign from…

Isaac powers toward Florida, GOP convention.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

Oh, no, weather topics will be prohibited next…


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

Oh, no, weather topics will be prohibited next…

Now that is funny.

But, it also has some truth to it. Look at any weather-related news story on the internet that allows comments and you are sure to see the comments quickly turn to climate change and politics by all the people who don't know the difference between weather and climate.


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Dude, we're losing perspective. Where are you? Dude?


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

I think that Debbie asked us to get off the grass and play on some other thread.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

DKV doesn't want to get off the grass…...He just wants to continue to fan the flames. Childish and lame.


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

It seems the only flames I am fanning are yours.


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## derosa (Aug 21, 2010)

I wear mine for quick access.
I always thought this was the prime reason for wearing a kilt.


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Kilts are good also, however a little more breezy.


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## bobcol (May 6, 2012)

Hey Abdul, JC could have been a LJ seeing he was a carpenter.


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Bob, JC could have been an LJ, just as I am. He and I have a lot in common. Oh, and Bob, please don't call me Abdul.


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## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

there are some members who have not yet seen this posting and may want to comment. That is why it has not been closed.

Please respect the full membership by having your social dialogue in another post. Thank-you.


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Yes ma'am.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

There you go DKV, start another posting so you can continue whatever it is you're trying to accomplish in a verbal marathon.
I won't be there.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

Hey, what do I do when 2 people I admire here are at each others' throat?


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## devann (Jan 11, 2011)

poopiekat, you guys load up and go fishing. Works for me most of the time.


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