# Is there an advantage to worm-drive circular saw?



## mojapitt (Dec 31, 2011)

I am shopping for new tools. Just wondering if there is an advantage to having a worm drive on a circular saw.

Thanks for reading


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## Silverhill (Nov 24, 2013)

I don't have one, but being geared(by worm drive) it would give you more power, torque, than a direct drive. Think standard shift vehicle, the power of the lower gears to high gear(direct drive). You come down to lower gears to take a load up a steep hill.

Good luck on the rebuild and recovery.


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## nailbanger2 (Oct 17, 2009)

Silverhill hit it on the head. In my opinion, the extra torque comes at a high price- xtra weight, and a lot of it. For most of 30 yrs. I've used a Makita circular saw, and have never had any problems.


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## mantwi (Mar 17, 2013)

Having done residential carpentry for over 38 years I can name a few advantages that make it my preferred circular saw. Having the blade on the user side of the saw makes it more natural to see and follow a line if you are right handed. The angle of the handle on wormdrives is just more ergonomic, it's like an extension of my arm due to the straight line it allows you to have from elbow to saw handle regardless of the blade depth. This is a major point if your an old dog, it prevents an aching wrist from being in the unnatural position you need to operate a sidewinder. The use of gears in the saw does give it a noticeable power advantage over most circular saws and they are very smooth. The cons are the weight, wormdrives are heavier than most saws by a pound or two, a point I've heard a lot of whining about over the years. That is sissy talk, you only have to lift it to the workpiece not suspend it in the air above it while cutting. You have to punch the diamond out of the sawblade to mount it on a wormdrive. A small price to pay for the advantage it has. That being said I still keep a sidewinder on hand for making the tread cut on the right hand stringer facing a staircase, I am addicted to being able to see the blade without craning my neck across a saw. I backed over my old wormdrive with my truck and just picked up the only Ridgid tool I have ever loved. Their wormdrive saw is a real gem and I'd recommend it. Once you get accustomed to one you will never look back.


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

I like a Makita hypoid saw better, except I'm still using my worm drive
Skill saw because it's bullet proof.

It's amazing how long a Skill saw can be used and abused.


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## MJCD (Nov 28, 2011)

I've had the Bosch wormdrive for 10 years, or more - rated at 15 amps, it will continue to draw power until the electrical breakers pop - an excellent investment, if you need the power.

The direct offset of bottomless power and torque is the size and weight: while professionals get used to the weight, and need the power, the real question is whether you need something this strong. Also. the 7 1/4" format is a direct and lingering need by rough (vs. Fine) carpenters for a 1 1/2" cut at a 45 degree miter - not something non-carpenters often need.

For most of my woodworking, I use a 9amp 6" Porter-Cable "SawBoss" - it's lighter, smaller, powerful-enough for plywood rips and 1" hardwood crosscuts. I keep the Bosch for working my pressure-treated deck, and other "15 amp' work.

For my money, get a high-quality sidewinder (normal)-style; along with 6" saw for the shop - or just the smaller saw, for now; and invest the remainder in other tools. Let your requirements drive your spending.

You Take Care.
MJCD


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## dhazelton (Feb 11, 2012)

I would say if you're cutting rafters all day long go for the worm drive. For most everything else it's probably overkill.


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## Kentuk55 (Sep 21, 2010)

Craigs list is always worth a look.


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## bbc557ci (Sep 20, 2012)

All of the above. Like comparing a Unisaw to a job site table saw.


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## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

Better balance


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## doubleDD (Oct 21, 2012)

I agree with mantwi totally. I also was a carpenter before retiring and would reach for the worm drive as my favorite. Yes it has extra weight, but the power, stability, and control is great. Test drive one before you decide, you will see a nice difference, especially when you cut into thicker lumber.


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## bigblockyeti (Sep 9, 2013)

You can change the oil in a worm drive saw, if done every couple years can extend the life of the gearbox for a very long time. Grease lubricated parallel gears in over 99% of sidewinder saws are more efficient from a mechanical design standpoint and because the gears aren't dragging through a heavy oil. They rely on a (very) thin film of oil from the grease. Over 99% of side winder saws have the drive pinion teeth cut into the armature shaft which has to be replaced when the gears become worn. Worm drive saws have a worm that is installed onto the armature shaft, in the unlikely event it requires replacement, the armature doesn't have to be purchased as well. The worm gear (on the blade spindle) is brass which lends itself well to the sliding action of such a gear train. From a power standpoint the average horsepower supplied by a good worm drive saw will be close to that of a good sidewinder saw, the taller gear ratio in the worm drive saw offers more torque, which in many cases can be seen as an advantage over greater blade speed.


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## Gene01 (Jan 5, 2009)

My Skil 77 is close to 30 years old and has never failed me. I love the fact that the motor is on the right of the blade. Probably not great for a lefty, though. As others have stated, plenty of power and damned near bullet proof.
Were I a framer, I don't think I'd use it. It's probably twice the weight of most other saws. Although, I've seen a lot in use on construction sites. Regardless, it's a great saw for my shop. 
My use is breaking down lumber and plywood. No problem ripping a 2 by.


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## reedwood (Jan 27, 2011)

Look out folks…Monte's on a spending spree! Ha!

I'd get one of each.

a 6" PC saw boss for plywood, soffit work
a 7 1/4" Skilsaw worm drive for framing and rafter angle cuts
a 7 1/4" Milwaukee or Makita sidewinder with 60 tooth blade strictly as a panel cutter with a guide


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

Hypoid gear above.

Here's the worm gear:










Fascinating stuff.


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## DocSavage45 (Aug 14, 2010)

Monte,

You look like a big guy. You operate chainsaws. I'm guessing your thinking about construction tools? To compensate for the weight my friends in construction would let the saw do the work. Gravity when possible like holding the piece to be cut on top of the work boot and cutting downward.

You also cut slabs for your furniture. The extra cutting power means less time cutting through the board.

If you can afford the tool, and it won't be sitting on the shelf after one job, then I would spend the money.

It's like deciding on what chainsaw to buy. The Poulan Pro is not a Husquavarna, but I'm not going to be doing what you do with lumbering and milling.


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## grizzman (May 10, 2009)

Ive had a skill worm drive for 18 years, love it, would not change it…enjoy getting your new tools…


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## BGW (Nov 27, 2012)

I have both a traditional circular saw (bosch) and the new Skill lightweight Worm Saw. I love the worm saw…

I would echo what mantwi wrote. For stability, power, and ergonomics, it's my saw of choice.


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## distrbd (Sep 14, 2011)

Monte,before making the final decision I suggest you hold one in your hands and pretend to cut with it ,see how you like the weight of a worm drive saw in regular use.

I had a chance to do this and didn't like the feel of it , was too heavy for someone like me ,couldn't manipulate it at all,mind you it was an older model but with all it's versatility and extra power it just wasn't for me.


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## TheGermanJoiner (Dec 1, 2013)

There are two fields of thought on them. The worms drives are more popular on the west coast and sidewinders on the east for standard framing. That said I own both. The worm drive is heavier but WAY more power. I use it a lot for demo. Cutting lvl's and glue lams. Great for cutting ridge vent in too. For most work I prefer my makita sidewinder. Just because of the weight issue. But skil puts out the best and lightest worm drive. They have 3 models. If your doing very large beams you can also add a chainsaw blade to the saw. For that I use the worm drive. I had a16 5/16" circ saw but it is under powered and a bit unwieldy. I prefer the chainsaw attachment. Plus it has a riving knife. Here are pics of both 
















Cost is another consideration. The beam cutter is under $200 the big circ is about $1300. So in conclusion(sorry for the long rant) if you need the power and can handle the extra weight get the lightest skil worm drive. They are the benchmark by which all other worm drives are compared to. If you're just doing normal work. The sidewinder will do pretty much everything. If that's the case get the makita 7 1/4". Best one made


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## jumbojack (Mar 20, 2011)

I bought the Skil mag 77 fourteen years ago. I can not imagine how many cuts it has made. I can not remember ever having a kickback, but I usually have fairly fresh blades running.


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## basswood (Dec 18, 2013)

I still use my Dad's worm drive Skil 77 that is 60 years old and still cuts beautifully. I think the worm drive is the most durable and smooth and controlable.

Bosch owns Skil and is now making the same top of the line worm drive saw under the Bosch label too:

http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-CSW41-4-Inch-Drive-Circular/dp/B00HUCUKDS/ref=pd_rhf_sc_p_tnr_1

It is the same tool as the Skil MAG77LT, so pick the color that looks best with your wardrobe (blue or red).

btw I own and use a variety of worm gear and sidewinder saws (including the HD77 with Prazi beam cutter and the monster Makita beam saw). They all have their place. Having both right and left blade saws can be handy.

Get one of each! 

@Vertigo, the thinner kerf Diablo beam saw blades make that big saw cut more effortlessly. I also made a shooting board style jig for mine that keeps it cutting straight and square:


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## Grumpymike (Jan 23, 2012)

Maybe it's just me, but with a sidewinder I cannot cut anything near a straight line on a long rip. But with the hypoid, I have little problem. (I think it is the gyroscope affect of the motor spinning in line, or opposed to the direction of the blade).

As you are going to build your new shop and I imagine that you will do most of the framing, I think, like everyone else here, that the hypoid is the tool of choice.

My hypoid is an old Craftsman ('bout 30+ years old) that has seen lots of use and still runs well today. I do think that the Skill 77 is about 1/2 pound lighter, as is the Makita.

When my new shop was under construction, the framing crew used the Makita saws, and I tried them out. I really liked them as they seemed a bit smaller yet plenty of power.

Personally I use the hypoid to cut any 2X material and to break down sheet goods (With 60 tooth blade). I also use the 18v battery saw on lighter material …. so consider both.

Good hunting & find the one that fits your hand the best.


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## TheGermanJoiner (Dec 1, 2013)

Thanks basswood. I'll have to pick one up. I don't use it often since I got the prazi. But next time I need it I'll get the Freud. Where'd you buy yours?


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## bigblockyeti (Sep 9, 2013)

I have two of the monster Makitas and I agree they are a little down on power, both do have dull blades and I'm thinking a carbide tooth blade would make a world of difference. I've used the Prazi, but didn't like the finish left by the cut, however, there's nothing this side of a chainsaw that will cut to that depth!


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## pintodeluxe (Sep 12, 2010)

I went with a left blade Bosch sidewinder, and have no regrets. 
The extra weight of a worm drive saw isn't worth it for cutting sheet goods.


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## bigblockyeti (Sep 9, 2013)

One other thought, if you do have one or two different saws, once you knock the diamond out of the blade for some worm drive saws, you won't be able use it again in a saw that has a 5/8" round arbor. I have used plastic adapters that allow the use of a diamond knock out blade on a round arbor saw, but they didn't hold the blade very concentric.


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## basswood (Dec 18, 2013)

@Vertigo and bby,

This is the blade I use:

http://www.amazon.com/Freud-D1632X-16-Inch-General-Purpose/dp/B0002AJQQM/ref=pd_bxgy_hi_text_z

That Makita demands a good sharp blade, for sure.


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## TheGermanJoiner (Dec 1, 2013)

Thx basswood. Cheaper then I thought too


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## dahenley (Sep 1, 2012)

if your needing a bigger saw then normal but the makita is too big, you can get a "big foot" conversion for your worm drives….


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Used both kinds over the years

Loved a little 1hp B&D sidewinder, could carry it around with maybe a finger, might have weighed three pounds

Hvae a Sears Craftsman all metal sidewinder and a SKIL Home shop 6-1/2 all metal sidewinders. Not too bad

Used the wormdrives at work when I was doing concrete form work. Noticed one thing others aren't talking about, when you pull the trigger to start a worm drive, watch out. For some reason it makes the saw want to twist out of your grip. Heavy ( metal Skil saw) that relied on going down hill to make a cut easier. It is just a matter of being able to LIFT the saw to the work. Some did one handed, I never could.


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## REO (Sep 20, 2012)

worm drives are for righthanders. sidewinders were designed as an afterthought fior lefties lol. I have not owned a worm or hypoind but I hwe used them. For extensive framing jobs or site built trusses I used a radial arm saw for cuts in the past now I use a CMS. The worm drive and hypoid are much more comfortable for long rips, cutting sheet steel siding and roofing. they are typicaly heavier but still a better bet for cutting tails in place standing on a laddder because of the way the force for pushing the saw is delivered to the saw. As I mentioned for my own use I have the typical"skill" saw because of the expense. if I drop one off the roof or damage it I just buy another.


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## GeoCol (Sep 15, 2011)

Hi Monty

Sorry to hear about your fire. Only positive is you get to replace all your tools.

The worm drive as mentioned above by many is better for torque and power etc. However if, as has happened to me, you chew up the worm, you will need to replace the armature in most saws that I know. If you go with a belt drive, then buy a spare belt as well. This helps to prevent frustration when half way through a job.

Good luck with your biggest project of getting back to the workshop you like.


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## BoardSMITH (Mar 15, 2012)

The worm drive saw was the first portable saw invented under the name Michael Saw Co. Originally made for cutting sugar cane, the first saw was nothing more than a motor installed on a machete and used in the sugar cane fields. It worked so well the inventor patented the idea and started selling the saws. The original saws cost about one months salary and were prone to failure if not cared for religiously. The name was changed to Skil, as the legend says, when the owners were looking for a new name and the owners wife said " It looks like it would take a lot of skill to use that saw". So the Skil Saw Co was born. S-B Power Tool Co has the original Michael Tool Co saw on display in Chicago along with some of the early examples that were first in production in the 1920's.

During the building boom after WWII, the worm drive saw was used mostly west of the Mississippi River and the sidewinder was used mostly from east of the Mississippi river. Of the circular saws used today, I believe that Skil and Bosch (Bosch owns Skil) are the only two with true worm drive saws. Makita and DeWalt both have look alikes but they are hypoid drive saws. Not as efficient in transferring power and not as reliable or powerful.

Several years ago, when I still worked for S-B Power Tool Co., there was an interview on Good Morning America of a DeWalt sales rep. When she got around to showing their latest cirular saw, she identified it as their newest Skil saw. I wonder how much longer she kept her job?


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## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

Basswood I Love your saw horses.
I do not need any but I wish I did.


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## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

I bought a Skill saw at Walmart probably 10 years ago for a full $18.00!!!!!!!!
I use it quite often with a Freud blade on it, for rough cutting and for sheet goods, it works perfect.


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## LeeBarker (Aug 6, 2010)

Couple of thoughts here, as a framer for years before I got into the shop full time:

Grumpymike hit it-the gyroscopic action of the worm drive, though a counterintuitive thought, permits a straighter cut.

I think not mentioned yet: At some point Skil made a few 6" wormdrives. Blades are less common. Nice saw. Perfect to have for the occasional outdoor project.

As for all this complaint about weight, people people! How do you build muscle?

You lift weights!

If you want the virtues of a worm drive, as so carefully and articulately put in the many above posts, just start using it! You'll get stronger! It's amazing how that works!

Kindly,

Lee


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## Grandpa (Jan 28, 2011)

I have a close friend that was a carpenter for 38 years. He built houses from the ground up, add ons from the ground up and all kinds of remodels. He wore out 2 Skil brand saws and one Porter Cable brand (they didn't have a Skil when he walked in the store) saws in his time. He did 99.5% or the cuts with his saw. No worm drives were ever bought. He retired after 38 years and doesn't have one arm that looks like it belongs on Popeye with the other looking like it belongs on Olive Oyle. He cut everything he needed to cut and never looked back. Yes he might have done all this with 1 worm drive but he retired without his back going out once. What else can you say about not needing one of those?


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## TheGermanJoiner (Dec 1, 2013)

+1 grandpa. I'm a sidewinder guy too


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## basswood (Dec 18, 2013)

Grandpa,

The new MAG worm drives are 13.2 pounds.

My Porter Cable sidewinder weights 13 pounds.

There is no longer any difference in weight between the two formats. The difference is in price and the side the blade is on, etc.

Of course your average sidewinder saw these days is $50 to 100 and for more money you can get those in lightweight versions and get down to around 9 pounds for an extra $50.

The Skill HD77 can still be had too, at 17 pounds, if people want the heft.

If you really want heavy in a sidewinder my Makita beam saw weighs over 50 pounds. I can use that saw all day every day and still feel better than some poor fellow chained to a desk.

I enjoy the physicality of the work. I am careful about how I lift things though.


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## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

Basswood, ' I can use that saw all day every day and still feel better than some poor fellow chained to a desk.

I enjoy the physicality of the work. I am careful about how I lift things though."

This is true when you are young, age changes many things, believe me.


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## basswood (Dec 18, 2013)

I'm not exactly a young pup, I've been doing carpentry for 30 years now. I work smart enough to keep doing it for another 15 or 20 years, I expect.

I certainly don't think anything of lifting a 13 pound saw though. It makes things better for me, not worse. I think I have less back problems than most people who work office jobs, that is my point. I'm on my feet all day and still go for a walk, or cross-country ski, or go canoeing after work, depending on the season.

This winter I made an ice rink in the yard so I can also skate and play hockey. Long winter, so I needed something else to do.


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## mojapitt (Dec 31, 2011)

Skating and playing hockey is probably more hazardous than construction


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## basswood (Dec 18, 2013)

... and driving a car is probably even more hazardous than hockey! 

I know this thread has been experiencing some thread drift… this is sorta back towards the topic. In the background of this video I made there are 3 sidewinders. The 50 lb. 16-5/16" beam saw has it's weight managed with a shooting board style cutting jig. It supports the saw before during and after the cut.






Less work and better cut quality.


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## reedwood (Jan 27, 2011)

Popeye likes to use his worm drive Skilsaw to open his cans of spinach.


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