# breadboard ends lessons learned



## jamsomito (Mar 26, 2017)

Made some breadboard ends for the first time on an outdoor table top and thought I'd share my lessons learned. Check out the project here: http://lumberjocks.com/projects/385105

Lesson 1: Consider clamping your breadboard end when pounding through drawbored pins. I blew out the backside of one of mine, and of course I had glue on it, so I had to do an impromptu, hurried repair for fear of the glue drying before I could make another end. I even caught it all on video because it was going to be so cool when it worked out! lol! Also taper your pins a bit more than you think you need, which will help.

evidence: 




Lesson 2: In my excitement to finally be putting together such a cool joint (the tenon took me forever because I couldn't flatten my boards or my glue-up really well, lots of hand chiseling), I forgot to elongate the holes to allow for wood movement. I did everything else right - only glued the center one, only put glue on the center of the breadboard, drawbored, etc. Well, this one's probably going to crack on me over time. The lesson learned is to take your time and make sure you're hitting every step, no matter how excited you get. You can also see the holes in the video above.

Lesson 3: I figured haunched tenons were just to make it look better on the ends. This was wrong, they are functional. Had the first rain storm on the new table and it was a doosey. My craftsmanship on the mortise / tenon left a lot to be desired, and I'm kind of embarrassed to be posting this here (my family won't ever know or even care, but YOU guys are all hardened woodworking experts ), but it seems with as big a gap as I left, the ends have absorbed water on the inside and warped up. A haunched tenon will strengthen the ens so they don't do this, and help keep moisture out of the middle.




























Any thoughts on how to prevent this issue? I thought about loading up a syringe with some boiled linseed oil and injecting it between the cracks and crossing my fingers that it absorbs some and seals the wood a bit. Also thought of an end-cap to simulate the haunched tenon, but then the ends will stick out from the core top a bit… might want to make them deeper too to allow for wood movement yet again, maybe 1/2"? Having screwed up the wood-movement issue on one breadboard end, I already conceded to making new ends in a year or two using the domino approach - just lop these off and make a new, solid end (I can borrow a domino if needed). Would be nice to avoid major surgery now though since I just finished it.


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## John Smith_inFL (Dec 15, 2017)

oh my goodness !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(I am only guessing that is #2 SYP?)

.

*"but YOU guys are all hardened woodworking experts"* Ha Ha Ha Haaaaa

do you think ANY of us just stepped off the bus with years of knowledge and experience
packed into our noggins and ready to just jump into any kind of projects ???

.

.


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## jamsomito (Mar 26, 2017)

> oh my goodness !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> - John Smith


What, my incompetence? LOL


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

I like the look of breadboard ends but have never used them. Seems like more trouble than they are worth. But if you want to try again, maybe consider this type of breadboard and quartersawn ends.


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## John Smith_inFL (Dec 15, 2017)

incompetence ? NO WAY !! that term is reserved strictly for government officials.
inexperience ? - maybe a little. (Welcome to the World of HardKnocks) - - > check my signature.
I picked up some 2×6 SYP last week at Lowe's that was nice and straight 
and after a 45 minute ride in the back of my SUV, all 4 boards had warped and twisted
enough to be readily visible. . . . since it was to be used in the attic, no worries.
but for outdoor furniture - not the best choice.

.

I am not a breadboard guy; but, were these gaps this big when you assembled the table ??









.


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## fivecodys (Dec 2, 2013)

Oh my goodness….
That's heart breaking to see!
My first thought is that the tenon is too thick…....not enough meat left in the breadboard end.
But…... my experience is limited.


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## jamsomito (Mar 26, 2017)

> I like the look of breadboard ends but have never used them. Seems like more trouble than they are worth. But if you want to try again, maybe consider this type of breadboard and quartersawn ends.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, that is the proper way to do them. At the time that was what I intended to do, but I didn't understand why the haunched tenons so thought I'd save the effort when I was lacking proper tools for the job. Guess they do serve an important purpose. Quarter sawn material makes sense too.



> incompetence ? NO WAY !! that term is reserved strictly for government officials.
> inexperience ? - maybe a little. (Welcome to the World of HardKnocks) - - > check my signature.
> I picked up some 2×6 SYP last week at Lowe s that was nice and straight
> and after a 45 minute ride in the back of my SUV, all 4 boards had warped and twisted
> ...


I bought KDAT treated SYP, but it was still pretty wet so I let it sit on stickers on my rack for about 8 months. It was pretty much done moving by the time I put it together (and it did move significantly, but I over-bought so I could chop out the straightest sections). The breadboards were fine up until it got utterly drenched, which makes sense.

About those gaps, yes they were present upon completion. I figured the most important part was the cheek faces, which I tried to get as tight as I could. I intentionally left some room between the tenon and the bottom of the mortise for expansion/contraction and ease of assembly. Ended up a bit deeper than I should have gone. The whole top glue-up was wavy since I don't have a jointer / planer, but I used biscuits which kept it as flat as I could. I still had a bunch of hand-chiseling and referencing to a straight edge to get the tenon flat. It was closer than the picture leads on to, but still not perfect.



> Oh my goodness….
> That s heart breaking to see!
> My first thought is that the tenon is too thick…....not enough meat left in the breadboard end.
> But…... my experience is limited.
> ...


It's a good thought, and I actually ran into this when dry-fitting during assembly. I ended up shaving some off the tenon to get it to fit. I don't think this is the issue here because it was flat up until it got soaked and the gap is so big where the breadboard warped.


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## bondogaposis (Dec 18, 2011)

Draw boring breadboards is not really a common practice. It is generally reserved for mortise and tenon joints and you found out why.


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## OSU55 (Dec 14, 2012)

Unless you are just in love with bb ends skip them. Them you can leave a gap between the boards so water will drain.


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## Knockonit (Nov 5, 2017)

I kinda did the same thing on a red gum ucalyptus (spelling) small table here in Az. oh well, live and learn, the next one turned out great and still going, not red gum but still a dandy one. sister loves it.
Rj


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

I don't know why you thought about injecting linseed oil in that gap. But it was the funniest fix I've heard this year.
Congratulations on making me laugh. Not a easy thing to do.


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## jamsomito (Mar 26, 2017)

> I don t know why you thought about injecting linseed oil in that gap. But it was the funniest fix I ve heard this year.
> Congratulations on making me laugh. Not a easy thing to do.
> 
> - Aj2


Haha, well desperate times call for desperate measures…

Got any other ideas?


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## dca (May 1, 2018)

Actually just made some breadboard ends yesterday.

Haunched tenons are pretty much ideal for this joint but the tenon isn't placed at the ends - that was your mistake.

The shoulder goes to the edge and doesn't need to be that long - I'd say 1/2" is plenty tall for a table this size.










I like the look but it's tricky to get the edges of the shoulder square with the mated groove. You can also hide them like the photo above but I find it easier to groove the whole length of the board and some would argue it looks better.

Look at the photos here to kind of get an idea of where the shoulder should be in relation to the tenons - https://www.finewoodworking.com/2009/04/17/breadboard-joinery-for-the-table-top

The tenon length isn't too critical but say roughly 2/3 the length of your breadboard so that if someone leans on it it doesn't flex or break. Number of tenons isn't really critical either but say - five tenons for this table. You want an odd number so you can glue the middle and leave the others only doweled. Your tenon also, as mentioned above, is too thick - safe reference is to just split the board into thirds so for a 1 1/2" board your tenon would be 1/2" thick.

Contrary to the poster above draw boring breadboards is definitely recommended so you did that right. It keeps the ends in tension since they're not glued and obviously pulls the breadboard closer. Try sharpening your dowels to a point next time - makes it easier to thread them through and don't offset the dowel hole too much - say 1/16" at the most.

Honestly this looks like a beautiful table so if it were me I'd remove the breadboard - cut down that tenon so that just the shoulder shows - and do it over. This is a very fixable mistake. It's also almost certainly necessary as well if you haven't elongated the dowel holes and the ends have already curled.

I've made equal mistakes on several tables and every time I've leaned into them and addressed them. Then every time you look at the table you smile instead of grimace. Go for it!


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## EarlS (Dec 21, 2011)

Great thread on a subject I certainly haven't dealt with - outdoors furniture and the challenges posed by everything mother nature throws our way. One of these years my wife would like a nice table and chairs for the deck. Having your "experiences" to draw from will help me avoid these problems and find new ones of my own. I learn more reading about mistakes and how to fix them than I do when a project is "perfect" and the post doesn't provide anything educational for the reader to learn from the project. Plus the LJ community is really good about providing helpful ideas and a little teasing (just a little because we've all been there more than once and will be again).


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## builtinbkyn (Oct 29, 2015)

Well this was an unfortunate incident, but the method of construction was not suited to the location. Spagnuolo's table, though an "outdoor table" appears to have been placed under shelter of a covered patio. I believe he also lives in AZ or some other dry climate where it would see little rain and humidity.

If you look closely at the pic you posted with the deluge, you can see your deck performing as the design intended it to, allowing the rain water to pass thru the openings provided during the construction. It's free of standing water. The table is awash in rain water because it didn't have those same spaces. Picnic tables are designed as they are to prevent what happened here. Breadboard ends allow for seasonal movement but obviously don't work to control movement in wood that has been fully soaked. So your table either needs to be under cover or of a different design.


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## John Smith_inFL (Dec 15, 2017)

Jam - just out of curiosity, what type of finish did you use on the table.
how many coats on top
how many coats on the bottom
how well did the bench seats perform in the water ??


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## jamsomito (Mar 26, 2017)

Thanks for the thoughts everyone, much appreciated. I'm pretty sure this design *should* work if built properly - I messed up the breadboard ends, but I think there's no reason they wouldn't hold up if done right. Look at Matt Cremona's outdoor table for example.



> Jam - just out of curiosity, what type of finish did you use on the table.
> how many coats on top
> how many coats on the bottom
> how well did the bench seats perform in the water ??
> ...


Take a look at the project link at the top of the first post, there's a picture in there. It was Behr semi-transparent deck stain / sealer in one. I used their caustic wood cleaner first and applied 2 layers to both sides of every piece. It was a trial run to see if I wanted to use it on my deck - I'll be using something else. This stuff was time consuming to apply, and I've read some horror stories about peeling after I bought it. Time will tell, but I followed the instructions to a "T" so it has the best chance to last. It appears to be working really well - everything beaded right up when the rain hit, and the wood on the breadboards definitely moved in the way you'd expect if the unfinished side absorbed water and the finished side didn't. The core of the table top, the bench tops, and all the frames haven't moved at all so I'd say it's sealing pretty well all around.


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## jamsomito (Mar 26, 2017)

> Well this was an unfortunate incident, but the method of construction was not suited to the location. Spagnuolo s table, though an "outdoor table" appears to have been placed under shelter of a covered patio. I believe he also lives in AZ or some other dry climate where it would see little rain and humidity.
> 
> If you look closely at the pic you posted with the deluge, you can see your deck performing as the design intended it to, allowing the rain water to pass thru the openings provided during the construction. It s free of standing water. The table is awash in rain water because it didn t have those same spaces. Picnic tables are designed as they are to prevent what happened here. Breadboard ends allow for seasonal movement but obviously don t work to control movement in wood that has been fully soaked. So your table either needs to be under cover or of a different design.
> 
> - builtinbkyn


I see your point about the original piece being under cover, but designed properly I don't see why this wouldn't hold up over time. Clearly my implementation was flawed though. Not to be adversarial, but I don't really see how making a slatted top with gaps between boards helps on something the size of a table. A deck is huge so expansion and contraction becomes very important, but the movement on a sealed piece less than 4ft across can be accounted for in the design. Water is always going to puddle up on a level surface… by making gaps between your top pieces you're only letting water through that falls exactly between the gaps. Plus it leaves room for stuff to fall through when you're using it. I just don't see how it benefits that much other than eliminating the need for bigger wood movements (you still have to account for some).


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

Jamso,

I agree with you ^^ . I think any table of decent width benefits from a BB end. On an outdoor table, without a BB the end grain will both absorb moisture/dry too quickly which will inevitably result in checking and maybe even cracking, but certainly cupping. If the table will be exposed to snow or freezing it can be even worse.

Here's my take:

I disagree with the poster that draw boring is limited to MT. Any MT joint that cannot be glued needs to be draw bored. For me, that's a fundamental. The biggest mistake as you already know, was leaving the tenon ends exposed. This is what allowed most of the water to invade the joint.

You need to remove the bb's and install new ones. If you take your material from the outsides of a 2×12 you will usually have rift or close to qs material.

Keeping water out of the joint is the big challenge. A few thoughts:

1. Make the joint as tight as possible (draw bore pinning). 
2. Haunched tenons
3. Soak the tenon and mortise thoroughly with a waterproofing preservative *before* assembly.

You can even remove the pins and BB's and re-coat say once a year if desired.

I want to say thanks for posting this because you will save a bunch of guys a lot of headaches one day.

Good luck hope this helps.


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## jamsomito (Mar 26, 2017)

> Jamso,
> 
> I would say thanks for posting this because you will save a bunch of guys a lot of headaches one day.
> 
> ...


Yup, I'm gathering this is the best approach. Thanks.


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## jamsomito (Mar 26, 2017)

Another thought:. The original plans called for 8/4 material also, so a little extra thickness would have helped some of these issues too.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

To Bondo's point about draw boring, I wouldn't do it on an outdoor table. It's a cross grain situation and even though the amount of wood between the pins and main table is very small, the movement will be greater in an outdoor table. So if that little section of wood can't move sideways, it's going to curl, which is what we see in the photo.


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## OSU55 (Dec 14, 2012)

> I see your point about the original piece being under cover, but designed properly I don t see why this wouldn t hold up over time. Clearly my implementation was flawed though. Not to be adversarial, but I don t really see how making a slatted top with gaps between boards helps on something the size of a table. A deck is huge so expansion and contraction becomes very important, but the movement on a sealed piece less than 4ft across can be accounted for in the design. Water is always going to puddle up on a level surface… by making gaps between your top pieces you re only letting water through that falls exactly between the gaps. Plus it leaves room for stuff to fall through when you re using it. I just don t see how it benefits that much other than eliminating the need for bigger wood movements (you still have to account for some).
> 
> - jamsomito


The gaps in your deck dont let just the drops of rain that hit the gaps through - Im sure you know water is low viscosity and therefore drains across a surface. As for size, even a 12" x 12" table top benefits from having gaps. It has nothing to do with wood movement and everything to do with removing as much standing water as possible. Build as you want, but dont be surprised when your finish fails quickly from water damage.


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## pintodeluxe (Sep 12, 2010)

I personally think the only good type of wood to use for outdoor furniture is aluminum. 
I bet if you did everything right, and made perfect joints with the best wood, the results would be disappointing. 
Just look at any picnic table that's been exposed to the elements for a year or more. None are perfect, and most are misaligned badly.


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## builtinbkyn (Oct 29, 2015)

> I see your point about the original piece being under cover, but designed properly I don t see why this wouldn t hold up over time. Clearly my implementation was flawed though. Not to be adversarial, but I don t really see how making a slatted top with gaps between boards helps on something the size of a table. A deck is huge so expansion and contraction becomes very important, but the movement on a sealed piece less than 4ft across can be accounted for in the design. Water is always going to puddle up on a level surface… by making gaps between your top pieces you re only letting water through that falls exactly between the gaps. Plus it leaves room for stuff to fall through when you re using it. I just don t see how it benefits that much other than eliminating the need for bigger wood movements (you still have to account for some).
> 
> - jamsomito


The spaces provided between the boards of an outdoor table top or picnic table allow the water to pass thru and not stand, as it also does for Adirondack chairs. However the real issue is the breadboard ends and what purpose they would have served your table top. Being an outdoor table, movement is not only inevitable, it's more severe because of the extremes it will encounter. I actually looked at the pictorial history of picnic tables after seeing your response, and even those that did not have spaces also did not have breadboard ends. The wood needs to move and it moves a lot more in an environment that is constantly changing and to extremes. BBs are more an aesthetic element, providing a finished look to the end of a table vs the end grain of cut boards forming the top. They aren't there to prevent movement. It's just the opposite. They allow it but also provide a finished appearance.

You can't seal the connection between the BBs and the end cuts/tenons as that would defeat the purpose of them. Not sealing them allows water to get between the boards and under the tenon. Both situations aren't ideal or desirable. I guess if you must have them, applying some kind of finish to the tenon and the dado may help, but maybe only lessen the results that have already occurred.


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## bilyo (May 20, 2015)

I agree that your table design is not appropriate for outdoor use. Most picnic tables are built with minimal simple joinery for a reason. The design recognizes that wood moves and outdoor wood moves more. Make life simpler for yourself and eliminate the breadboard ends. No matter what you do, they are going to get water inside that will cause problems.

At this point, you don't want to make a gap between the boards that make up the top. But, if you ever make another one, leave the gap and let the boards move as they will.

Just my $0.02 worth.


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## runswithscissors (Nov 8, 2012)

Nobody has mentioned this concerning your design: did you consider having the tenon on the breadboard and the mortise in the table top? Seems you wouldn't get the curling or warping of the breadboard that way.

Which of course doesn't address the other issues raised.


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## Holbs (Nov 4, 2012)

Other than the BB joint that you highlighted, how did the rest of the table fare for it's joinery?
Maybe….an awning or roof over patio is needed


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## mayday3374 (Sep 15, 2017)

Looks like the rainwater soaked into the breadboard joint, and the unfinished wood in the breadboard soaked it up, causing the nreadboard to warp


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## jamsomito (Mar 26, 2017)

> Other than the BB joint that you highlighted, how did the rest of the table fare for it s joinery?
> Maybe….an awning or roof over patio is needed
> 
> - Holbs


Actually the bench tops and the rest of all the joints (dowels) are holding up great. The whole thing is still really sturdy. Unfortunately, the table top still got worse for a while. I think the biggest problem was my wood wasn't fully dry before I built the top. Had I waited another year for it to dry out I bet it wouldn't have moved so severely. The way I made the breadboard was not ideal though - it definitely needs haunched tenons and much less slop. Some way to seal the non-glued areas would help a lot too I think.

Thanks to everyone for the thoughts. Definitely have some ideas to improve for next time. In the meantime, this still holds people and plates up just fine, so on to other projects!


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## jamsomito (Mar 26, 2017)

Thought you guys would like these 




























Also, all the glue joints on the table top have failed. When it's dry and the boards shrink, there are significant gaps between them all. None of the boards are cracked though, so it's definitely the glue that failed. It was Titebond II, so that surprised me a bit.



















My friends and I are starting a pool to see who can guess when something's going to fall off. I give it until December. 

I'm not going to mess with this top. The rest of the frame and benches are just fine so I'm going to let this one fail and make a new top maybe next year.


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## runswithscissors (Nov 8, 2012)

Three observations: 1, I would make the depth of the groove & tongue much shallower-no more than 3/4". 2, I would make the groove in the table top, and the tongue as part of the breadboard. 3, I would glue the breadboard ends only in the center of the table. That would let the boards swell or shrink without causing damage.


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