# Where Are the Skilled Tradesmen These Days?



## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

I was visiting a woman whom I'll be building doors for yesterday and listening to her horror stories about the contractors doing the work on the addition to their house. It's been going since January and its still just framing, nothing else.

I did a vanity for a woman's guest bath remodel recently. When the contractor installed it, he scuffed the finish badly. I went over at her request to assess the damage and was appalled at what I saw. I had milled two matching pieces of scribe molding for him to use. He had installed it flat to the wall, not the face frame. Seriously, she has scribe molding in her kitchen, so how hard would it have been to go look to see which way it goes? I had also cut it a little long so he could trim it to be exact after the countertop went on. He didn't trim it, so it sticks down into the kick space.

Then, the "plumber" she hired destroyed the interior. I had put in a 4 inch tall center divider she requested so she could add some pull out trays. Apparently all the guy had was about a 14" piece of pipe to attach to the sink drain. Cutting it would have been above his pay grade I guess because it put it in, and in order to make room for the p-trap he hacked out a big chunk of the divider. It just ruined it and also there's no way she can add pull out trays now because the stinking trap is sticking out both sides.

Being the nice guy that I am, I repaired the finish at no charge, but it's just heartbreaking to see the other damage. I take a lot of pride in my work and to have it chopped like that sucks. I mean he didn't even sand it smooth, it's just rough cut with splinters sticking out.

I'm not building the vanity for the addition I mentioned in the first paragraph. She wanted to get me over for a bid, but her husband hired a cabinet shop here in town without talking to her first. They say if a marriage can survive a home remodel, it can survive anything…lol. Anyway, I'm dying to see the completed space and see what kind of work that shop does.

Whew. Feels good to vent…lol


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

Where Are the Skilled Tradesmen These Days?

They are too old to do much work any longer.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

The skilled guys around here stay very busy and have waiting lists months long. They also charge a pretty penny. And then there are lots of guys who pretend to be tradesmen and are likely to do as much damage as good. No different than the guys selling Anna White tables which subsequently blow apart.


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## builtinbkyn (Oct 29, 2015)

Rich you read the rant I posted in my blog. I feel her pain. I'm almost tempted to go back into business. Could probably make a killing on 2 week or less duration projects. Nothing longer and no full house renos. Just smaller jobs where you're in and out. There's a real market here in Pittsburgh, for people who know what the heck they're doing. I would just worry about finding good help.

My painters had a boss who didn't show except to do the estimate and then when I told him on the phone I was sending them home, he came for payment which we settled amicably. I was told they'd arrive between 8 and 8:30. They got here 9:45. Then stood around in the driveway greeting one another and smoking butts. Then finally by 10:30 they had some drop cloths down and started to patch and prime. They broke for lunch at 11:45 lol I knew then it wasn't going to last here for them. They're skills were less than mediocre. Ragged edges on caulking, not chipping out cracks that needed attention. Just bad overall work.

Here I feel like a fish out of water. Back in NY I know reliable, competent subs and or just call the guys I had working for me to get stuff done.


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## rad457 (Jun 15, 2013)

Widow friend of my wife's has had 2 quotes for a small wood deck, they won't even return her calls?


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

Some of the problem is the people that allow that sort of thing.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

Is it lack of skill or they just don;t care and want the money.


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

> Where Are the Skilled Tradesmen These Days?
> 
> They are too old to do much work any longer.
> 
> - AlaskaGuy


No lie.


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## Fresch (Feb 21, 2013)

The skilled craft gilds have turned into as some would say " jobs Americans don't want", only to find that we all can't be engineers, internet gurus, the need for a skilled ditch digger Is still there. I moved and went by word of mouth on my kitchen remodel only to fire the idiot before he was complete with his crappy work. Then I completed it and mov d right into the bathroom remodel and still put in 40-60 hr. weeks at work, wife not too happy then but was after.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Some of the problem is the people that allow that sort of thing.
> 
> - patcollins


For sure. Thing is many people don't know anything and just let the contractor run loose. I also think that, like auto shops, they sometimes take advantage of women, figuring they can get away with it.

I know how to interview someone before hiring them and they can tell that they won't be able to get any BS past me. I also evaluate the work as it goes along - not hovering over them, but just checking in from time to time.

Then you get a situation like Bill ran into where the boss never showed up and the workers were slouches and there's no way you can see that coming in advance. At least he had the cojones to fire them.


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## John Smith_inFL (Dec 15, 2017)

well, this one retired in 2013. . . . . . .

now that we have passed the torch to the so called "Millenneals",
the only training they get is from their stupid smart phone or YouTube.

nuff said on that right there (and yes Rich - it is a thorn in my backside too).

my last 5 years, I worked for Mr. Handyman in Central Florida and I was truly
amazed at the new hires that could barely read and write. yes, the future is in trouble !!









.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

I have also worked with people who don't even know what good work is but think they do. I have seen people brag on how well their project is, when in reality it's really not very good at all.


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## Knockonit (Nov 5, 2017)

I went thru over 50 new hires last year, and since jan 2 this year am at 31, while some have been decent on their way to be competent carpenters, they are not reliable. 
I do mostly upper end remodels and adds, only by referral, been like that for over 20 years, and i do commercial also, but only cost plus a fee.

with that said, our volume stays steady, can't grow, because we can't hire decent help, my core group has been with me over 14 years, decent honest fellas, have had a couple good tradesmen retire, but most were in late 60s,

I'm a carpenter by trade, but have been in biz for over 40 years here in phoenix, being a second gen builder, i've seen them come and go, rob and plunder, and still people hire them, give them money up front, ect.

I have as of the last month or so, turned away as much work as we have completed since first of year.

bummer, i'm approaching 70 times around the sun, and frankly don't want to quit, sure like what i do, but the lack of responsible employees is taking me on that spiraling ride to the end of the game.

have absolutely no interest by young folks to enter into the carpentry trade, bummer, its given me one heckuva life.

Rj in Az


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## JCamp (Nov 22, 2016)

I'm to busy working on my own house. Lol. 
I watched my in laws go thro probably 6 contractors when they were getting a old house completely rebuilt. Some of them wanted to work by the hour and then milked it with all kinds of breaks. Most didn't show up anywhere near on time. I went down and did some electric work a couple nights after I got off my day job and I out worked all the contractors that were floating n and out 
If you can get a guy that'll show up when he's suppose to and does a decent job (not even a great job) your very lucky. 
For myself I tend to do almost all my own work cause no one can suite me and I work cheaper than everyone else


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## DavePolaschek (Oct 21, 2016)

I had my house restuccoed last year. The unskilled guys tearing off the old were Ukrainians. The skilled guys putting on the new were a mixed crew. Couple white guys, couple Hispanics, and a couple Eastern Europeans. The roofers were a crew of Central Americans.

Big jobs, it's still possible to find a crew. But little jobs? Forget it. I need 20 feet of rain gutter replaced on my garage and I'm going to end up doing it myself because nobody will even come out to bid it. Not a big enough job to be worth their time.


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## BillWhite (Jul 23, 2007)

You don't EVEN want me to start in about painters and plumbers.
Fridge supply line in FRONT of the fridge? WHAT?
Painters working 2 to 3 hours, then pull off to go to another job?


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## TungOil (Jan 16, 2017)

You are exactly right Rich. I'm finding it extremely difficult to find any decent contractors around here (eastern PA) as well. The workmanship is consistently mediocre. Honestly, some of the best workers I've had in the past 5 years were the crew that renovated my pool. All from South America and Mexico, hardest workers I've seen in a long time, and they did a good job.

Getting anyone to even return a call about work is a challenge. And don't even get me started on the "Long driveway" adder I sense getting tacked onto the quotes I am able to get….


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## woodbutcherbynight (Oct 21, 2011)

We have the same problem at work. Last guy that was hired was 6 years ago. So we have 3 auto techs. 
1. 55 years old, 35 years experience
2. 62 years old 44 years experience
3. 48 years old 27 years experience

See a trend? Last guy we had even ask about a job was 5 years ago. He had no experience, no tools and thought we supplied tools as part of the job.

My boss figured out early in the business pay very well and pay salary, not commission and the help will stay. But you have to be pretty good to get asked to come work for this guy. I was surprised when I got that call 11 years ago.


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

It's a day and age of doing the minimum to get paid the maximum and most times not even that.

Can't get helpers to stick and can't get journeyman who who doesn't have issues. The good ones are taken care of and rarely leave. It's hard to get people to understand that that is what you work toward. The good ones don't need to look for work if they want a change of scenery. Cuz something is already waiting.


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## CRAIGCLICK (Mar 14, 2018)

Welcome to the boomtown.

Everyone wants their "authentic craftsman style" cardboard castle and cheap labor maximizes a builder's profits.

No one wants to pay for craftsmen anymore and the cheap guys are all booked up and turning down work.

Not unusual around here to see a million dollar house around here with full overlay flat packed cabinets and hollow doors.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

I want to add, that many up and coming "craftsmen" don't actually want to do the work. Case in point… I was looking to have my 24×30 MetalMart steel shop insulated with 6-8in of fiberglass held in place with 4×8 sheets of 1/2in plywood. Not necessarily requiring advanced raining, to say the least. The current insulation is a 1/4in solarguard material I installed prior to sheeting the roof and walls (I wanted to add to this).

Bottom line, is that I found ONE person that ONLY installed spray foam in/on new construction and turned the job down. Other than that, I couldn't even get ANYONE willing to even consider the job, much less give/offer a quote. This was regardless of "price" because of …???... Sounded too much like "work"?


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## Fresch (Feb 21, 2013)

I'm meeting up with the one contractor that might, might, encapsulate my crawl space at my camp. Called 3 BBB logoed company's all with crawlspace and work in my area on their adds, one we don't work in that area, second we don't do crawlspaces, third will come out and get info. to see if it's something they would bid.
Looks like the fourth contractor will just have to do it himself, not looking forward to crawling.


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## DustyM (May 16, 2016)

My dad was a painting contractor for 40 years (rest his soul). I spent enough time working with him as a teen and young adult to learn some valuable skills, but also to learn it wasn't for me. One thing he did teach me though: if you see a "professional" painter taping up a window or door frame instead of just taking their time and cutting in with a brush, fire them: they're full of it.

Also, my mom used to work with him a bit doing wallpaper, since he didn't have the patience for it, but she eventually got into painting too. His crew hated when she showed up, because it meant if/when she outperformed one of them, they'd be going home for the day


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> I want to add…
> 
> - HorizontalMike


Interesting that someone who has me blocked, preventing me from posting on their threads, takes advantage of my choice not to block back (I think it's kind of childish) to post on mine. Not that I'm surprised given the source.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> I want to add…
> 
> - HorizontalMike
> 
> ...


It's not just him either. It happen to me too. But hey that's just the way blockers work. They…...........


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

To flip the coin a little bit. 
Sometimes a contractor doesn't want to work for the client.

Red flags went off for me the other day when a potential client wanted me to bid a mantle for them.
Then they proceeded to tell me how many boards I needed and how much the boards would cost.

Needless to say, I passed.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> To flip the coin a little bit.
> Sometimes a contractor doesn t want to work for the client.
> 
> Red flags went off for me the other day when a potential client wanted me to bid a mantle for them.
> ...


This is so true, been there done that. But I called them so they wouldn't wait around for nothing.


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

> To flip the coin a little bit.
> Sometimes a contractor doesn t want to work for the client.
> 
> Red flags went off for me the other day when a potential client wanted me to bid a mantle for them.
> ...


I told her I was too busy for a job that small and referred her to a friend (that does quality work). 
He quoted her a price ($1100.00) and never heard back from her.
Poplar mantle: 103×8 x 6 mitered all edges, stained and finished with a black stain. Installed


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## TungOil (Jan 16, 2017)

> To flip the coin a little bit.
> Sometimes a contractor doesn t want to work for the client.
> 
> Red flags went off for me the other day when a potential client wanted me to bid a mantle for them.
> ...


That was one of the most valuable lessons my dad taught me…some people are not worth working for. He always told me 'price the job so high that if they do go for it it will be worth the extra trouble'


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## woodbutcherbynight (Oct 21, 2011)

> To flip the coin a little bit.
> Sometimes a contractor doesn t want to work for the client.
> 
> Red flags went off for me the other day when a potential client wanted me to bid a mantle for them.
> ...


Being the smart aleck I am I might have suggested how much the tools cost and where to buy them…..........

Probably easier for me to get away with that though, woodworking is just my hobby.

LOL


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Just before I [kind of] totally retired from the business, I helped a long time, "expert" handyman. I was shocked and appalled at the crap he pulled. The very first job was filling a 1" gap in a fascia board, at the peak of the roof.

It was a highly visible spot.

He insisted I fill it with caulk, then paint it, immediately, when done. I asked him if he had any backer and he either didn't know what it was or played like he didn't. He even got pissed when I refused to paint it, after filling the gap.

Another time, he painted a house and, when I talked about the window and other trim, he responded "[h]e just hired me to paint the house, he didn't say anything about the trim.

Of course, the guy, even after a couple decades, couldn't bid a job. For example, we were to replace some aluminum windows, which would require framing, insulation, rock work, texture and paint on both sides. He was going to bid it for about three hundred, for both of us. I pushed him to take to fifteen and the owner jumped on the deal.

Another time, he took it upon himself to choose the customer's paint color, based on what he had in his shop. It was horrible and I told him so. When done, so did the customer.

So he went and got a bunch of whites. Some satin, some gloss, some eggshell. I told him we wouldn't be able to match it, because of the sheen. We (I) ended up painting the @@[email protected]&***& kitchen three times.

He took a Hardiplank siding job and expected me to do it using his battery operated Dewalt toys. I grabbed my Hardiplank circular saw and a vacuum, then finished up and quit.

He used to bring all the wood home from jobs and burn it in his wood stove. Treated, painted, it didn't matter. Maybe that was his problem, he'd done that so long he looked the part of a mad hatter.

They are out there, and they like to breed.

I couldn't resist it and started another handyman business and called it The Handyman's Handyman.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Like others mentioned, there are THOSE clients. Like the lady who insisted I put eight inch insulation in her 2×4 walls, so she could get the best insulation possible.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> Like others mentioned, there are THOSE clients. Like the lady who insisted I put eight inch insulation in her 2×4 walls, so she could get the best insulation possible.
> 
> - Kelly


Just at the cost to fir the wall out.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

> I want to add…
> - HorizontalMike
> 
> Interesting that someone who has me blocked, preventing me from posting on their threads, takes advantage of my choice not to block back (I think it s kind of childish) to post on mine. Not that I m surprised given the source.
> - Rich


Considering your asinine response to the mere fact of me contributing and NOT to my response to the subject content of your own posted QUERY, it is of NO WONDER why I have you blocked. Carry on…


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Considering your asinine response to the mere fact of me contributing and NOT to my response to the subject content of your own posted QUERY, it is of NO WONDER why I have you blocked. Carry on…
> 
> - HorizontalMike


You're one hell of a classy guy, Mike. BTW, I didn't comment on your response because it was as vapid as everything else you post.

Having me blocked only prevents me from commenting on your posts and sending you PMs, neither of which I would waste my time doing. But hey, I guess it makes a little man feel big.


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## JCamp (Nov 22, 2016)

To me the "blocking" option is one thing that is highly abused on this site. That being said I'm sure we are all better without the aggravation of arguing with someone. Please keep comments on topic and have a wonderful day or you'll have to kiss and make up…. in which case pics or it didn't happen!


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## diverlloyd (Apr 25, 2013)

Pride is what is missing today to many "it looks good from my house" types along with no one is held accountable. I guarantee if the guy who scratched the finish was made to pay for the rework and the plumber was forced to pay for his errors they would either quit or do better work. People work harder to half ass something then do it right which is usually faster and nicer in the long run. Like my in laws want to help me paint my front porch hand railing. It's chipping off so thy want to just slap some paint over it since I want to sell the house in a year or two. No it needs pressure washed then scrapped,lightly sanded and fill in some cracks. Why am I going to waste my time and my money to paint over some paint that is already chipping off because who ever did it before used treated wood and didn't let it dry and prime it before painting so there is no bonding of paint to wood. It will just start chipping again after a couple months max. Had to tell the mother I law I don't need her help she will just be in the way and is making more work for me in the long run. Imagine how that went over.What do you want me to do lie to you. No I'm going to tell you why and how it's a counter productive and hope that someone would do the same to me if I'm being counter productive.
I don't even want to start on plumbers. I had a slow drain and glurgle had the same thing happen 15 years ago in the same house. Tree roots in the main line need angered out. Call around and get quotes over the phone all around $750. Plus no one keeps a 100' drain auger so they have to rent one. I get to pay for that. Oh plus we don't want to go through you clean out we want to pull the toilet $ 250 to pull a toilet and $100 to put it back. But if I want to do that to save money that okay with them. So let me get this right I have to pull the toilet and pay to rent the machine since you don't have one long enough. All because it's hot outside and you want to be in the ad and not use the clean out. So you want me to do 3/4 of your job for you and pay you $750 to hit a button on a auger. took me longer to drive to homedepot and rent the auger then it did to run it through the clean out. Odd that something with the name clean out would be used for well a clean out. Sad thing is that has worked for them before and it wasn't just one plumber but all three I called were within a $100 of each other. I'm off my soap box now thank you.


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

I'd like to change my answer.

They are dead. Dying. Or retired most likely.


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## JCamp (Nov 22, 2016)

Rich. After receiving ur pm (in my opinion a ball less way of communicating) I kinda get why mike has u block. Pm received is shown below. 
"Please don't chime in on my thread and try to tell me how to comport myself in the future. I'll deal with Psycho Mike in my own way and don't need your comments, especially something as lame as kiss and make up. Maybe you thought it was cute and witty - I didn't."


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Rich. After receiving ur pm (in my opinion a ball less way of communicating) I kinda get why mike has u block. Pm received is shown below.
> [...]


I'll let your breach of forum etiquette - posting a PM in public - stand on its own as a reflection on you. That way everyone can see the sort of person you are.

P.S. The reason I PM'd you in the first place, rather than post it here, was to keep from embarrassing you in public. Too late for that now though…lol


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## Knockonit (Nov 5, 2017)

Being a contractor for over 40 years, when i go out to review a project and perhaps decide if I am going to provide a quote, its an interview, not only on my side but the clients side, 
One thing i've learned all these decades is to make sure you know, and understand the potential client, ask questions, sometimes they may be somewhat personal, and how their experiences are with vendors and or contractors, or even basic service people.

I find after a few of the answers i can make a reasonable decision as to whether i would like to enjoin into a relationship with the client. Being someones contractor is a different type of relationship, especially one who does remodels and additions, access to home at all hours and places is a must, the relationship can sometimes become strained.

in any event. in this time and age, its difficult to employ talented, well adjusted, honest tradesmen and or women.
WE only take on maybe 10% of the work we are asked about, and on occasion have had potential clients get so worked up of our inability to perform for them. They sometimes don't get it, shame, only trying to save them the misery of a contracting association slow up and lack of reasonable performance.

oh well, 
Rj


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Knockonit, on interviews going two ways, oh hell yes. One of the BIG red flags I learned is, customers who could not say good about any contractor. The safe bet was, I'd be next in line.

Gotta be an irony somewhere in there, with regard to this thread. That aside, I guess we could ask where all the good clients are. I have found several over the years.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

I've had great clients. Back to my opening post, the woman for whom I built the vanity loves me and keeps finding things for me to do. BTW, I never badmouthed the "contractors" who ruined the vanity. She hasn't complained, so there'd be no point in saying anything. I'm heading over there Tuesday to do a restoration of her dining set. Loose joints, scratches, etc. Not a refinish, just repair the damage.

Even though the complaints I heard from people inspired this thread, I think you have to listen to what is being said. What I've heard are legitimate complaints: Not showing up, not just on time, but at all. Quitting early before the agreed upon work is complete.  Things like that. People adjust their schedule to accommodate you and when you let them down, they have a legitimate gripe. Believe me, I've known chronic complainers in my life (I married two of them…lol) and if I were hearing that, it'd be a different story. I'd never take a job with one of those.


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