# To raze and rebuild a workshop, or not?



## Alphacat (Apr 29, 2021)

.I recently moved to a new house. I'm blessed to have a 30×40 metal pole barn workshop now…

Except…

-gravel floor
-stinks
-previous owner seems to have used it for not just livestock, but slaughtering 
-there was about 100 feet or more of shelving i had to pull out due to being covered in rat poop
-the bathroom is literally the worst bathroom in scotland, needs a complete redo
-filthy
-pretty ugly, my wife despises it, needs cleaning and painting 
-the previous owner built a coop literally attached to it, adding to the rat issue
-gravel floor is gross, also loose in some places due to extensive rat tunnels 
-my wife doesn't even want to store outdoor Christmas lights in it right now.

On the plus side, there is a new fuse box and rv hookup. However, the rest of the electrical is terrible… burnt out outlets, exposed wiring connections, you name it.

I have spent more than a few hours decked out in googles and n95 ripping out the worst of it. The smell has improved somewhat. But now I still have major obstacles… rewiring, figuring out a way to redo the awful (seriously awful) bathroom, making the space generally inhabitable.

And even if I did that… I'm not sure it would ever feel 'right'. It's just one of those buildings that feels a bit gross to go in. I am not sure i could ever get the stink out, either.

Which… leads me to my question. My wife wants to tear it down. Rebuild something smaller, on concrete… maybe a tuffshed or similar. Part of me loves this idea, part of me feels crazy tearing down a structurally sound building.

And if I did go the route of rebuild… I certainly can't afford 30×40. I'd be lucky to justify 16×20 with the wife. Best case, given that we already have the electrical and plumbing out there, we'd love to have both a shop and a small adu (bathroom could be in adu, shared electrical) but are likely priced out.

But likewise, investing in redoing the existing bathroom when I don't even know if the building is salvageable also seems hard to justify.

I don't know where my question in this is. In a way, I'm venting. I guess it is this… am I crazy considering tearing down this building? Or am I crazy even considering not tearing it down?

On the plus side, we do have the electrical and plumbing already run to a 'level' area. The plumbing might need some love, but its there. We could drop concrete for a few thousand, and then spend another small fortune aiming for two buildings, a small shop and a place for relatives to stay while visiting… but I have a feeling that is double the budget I can afford. (Even 30k for both would be a gut punch, and I bet we'd need 60 min.)

Regarding my shop needs… I like to refinish furniture and build small projects like coops or a fort for my kids. It will likely not generate income. As such, I really struggle getting rid of a 'free' shop and spending so much on a new one.

Sorry for the ramble, I am just in search of opinions.


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

I have basically the same building, this one was used as a "machine shed" for the farmer that built it, nothing more than covered parking so i use to park my trailers and tractor. No way would I consider using it as the basis for a shop. I have the room so I put up a new building for the shop, but if I hadn't the space the pole barn would have been torn down to make room. Good luck with your decision.


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## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

Follow SWMBO's advice. Happy wife, happy life. Fire can be very cleansing.


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## PCDub (Sep 24, 2017)

If you poured a concrete floor, would it take care of the smell? (or most of it)
Is it enclosed well enough (or can it be easily made tight enough) to keep out vermin?
Can you enclose and add flooring to part of it to make a secure pleasant shop?

I'm trying to think of ways you could change it enough to make it 'livable' without tearing it down. ...compromise…


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## Alphacat (Apr 29, 2021)

> If you poured a concrete floor, would it take care of the smell? (or most of it)
> Is it enclosed well enough (or can it be easily made tight enough) to keep out vermin?
> Can you enclose and add flooring to part of it to make a secure pleasant shop?
> 
> ...


The general answer is 'maybe'. I took out trash, that reduced the smell. I pried up shelves with inches of congealed rat droppings, and that helped. I tore out the bathroom walls (poop in the insulation, stinky paneling, some dead mice) and that helped… But the odor never quite goes away. As for vermin, I caught 3 big rats early, nothing since. We don't feed animals anywhere near it, so that likely helps reduce population.

Concrete floors would go a huge way to making it feel better. No matter how many feathers I pick up, there are always more (slaughterhouse floor). Done right it would reduce moisture during winter, etc.

It would be very difficult to fully ratproof though. I'd need to run rat flashing around the base, and probably replace the sliding garage door (it is a couple inches off the ground).

My fear is that after investing in concrete it wouldn't be enough, and I'd still have to rip it out. Which would mean I should have spent the money differently.

Though thinking about this makes me realize my wife is right… any money invested, even on a solid idea like concrete, faces the threat of 'not being enough'. I don't want to turn a building I don't even like into a money pit.

I still feel really terrible tearing it down. It's 30×40 of covered space with a bathroom (nobody can currently use). I feel like I'm tearing down something many people wish they had.


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## Alphacat (Apr 29, 2021)

> I have basically the same building, this one was used as a "machine shed" for the farmer that built it, nothing more than covered parking so i use to park my trailers and tractor. No way would I consider using it as the basis for a shop. I have the room so I put up a new building for the shop, but if I hadn t the space the pole barn would have been torn down to make room. Good luck with your decision.
> 
> - Fred Hargis


Yeah, it feels like I could use it for vehicle storage. I wouldn't put a fancy car in it due to the odor, but beyond that..,

I suppose I technically have the space to build elsewhere and leave it, but it's already got the plumbing and electrical run, has the perfect location for a shop, and is kind of an eyesore (a clean and paint would resolve this, though).

I wonder if scrappers would take it down for me, lol.


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## xeddog (Mar 2, 2010)

My son had a similar situation. He never could get the old building up to a point where he would actually use it, so he built a new building on another part of his property. He still didn't take my advice though. He built a 30×40 steel building on a new 6" slab. Siding is dark green, but so is the roof. Unusable in the summer because it is just too damn hot in there. It has hit 140F in there in the height of the summer. The wolf spiders seem to love it in there.


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## paulLumberJock (Aug 5, 2020)

> Follow SWMBO s advice. Happy wife, happy life. Fire can be very cleansing.
> 
> - Madmark2


No, "happy wife, happy life" is the worst advice a man can get. This is your shop, not hers.

Think about your current situation. Make a list of what you need to do fix the current building. Write it on paper.
Figure out if the smell can be gotten rid of or not.. I don't have expertise in this or not.. 
It's very easy to underestimate the cost of a new building (not saying you will).. 
It sure would be easier to just bulldoze what you have and start over, but it is more expensive and you end up with a smaller shop.
A bathroom rehab would not be that bad. Buy a new sink and toilet.. Maybe rip out the drywall or whatever wall covering there is, and replace (probably a good idea to get rid of the smells in the wall anyhow).. If the plumbing is structurally sound, it's not that bad.. yes, a few unpleasant weekends. But you will love to have it out there.

I would spend time trying to get rid of the stink. If I could get rid of the stink, I'd probably try to salvage the building.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

Ozone generators are said to get rid of bad smells. You have to leave the area when the machine is on.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> Follow SWMBO s advice. Happy wife, happy life. Fire can be very cleansing.
> 
> - Madmark2
> 
> ...


+1 the smell is probably due too whats in the gravel floor a new concrete slab would probably get rid of that.if the building is in good shape dont waste money tearing it down,plus building materials are very high,like as in doubled !


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## Knockonit (Nov 5, 2017)

I'd grade the old gravel out, which would get rid of the rat guana, perhaps put some termite treatment down and give it a new concrete slab, add flashing where needed, change out entry sliding door to a good slider or an overhead unit and seal away. Wiring is easy, use conduit or mc cable, helps keep the rats from eating the insulation, you can hang insulation on cieling and walls, 
rebuild bath
with the cost of materials in present market i'd work towards salvaging as much as possible, but if the atmosphere to rehab is not there, well then, send in the demo crew.
good luck, have to say we had quite a few buildins on the ranch that we slaughtered and were stalls, they all cleaned up well decades later.
best for the future
rj in az


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

Here in the USA, we have companies that clean up after storms and floods. You may have a similar service in Scotland.


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## splintergroup (Jan 20, 2015)

Don't discount the cost of demolition and hauling away the debris. Basically you'll have a clean spot with nothing an d already be down some funds.


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## Alphacat (Apr 29, 2021)

> I d grade the old gravel out, which would get rid of the rat guana, perhaps put some termite treatment down and give it a new concrete slab, add flashing where needed, change out entry sliding door to a good slider or an overhead unit and seal away. Wiring is easy, use conduit or mc cable, helps keep the rats from eating the insulation, you can hang insulation on cieling and walls,
> rebuild bath
> with the cost of materials in present market i d work towards salvaging as much as possible, but if the atmosphere to rehab is not there, well then, send in the demo crew.
> good luck, have to say we had quite a few buildins on the ranch that we slaughtered and were stalls, they all cleaned up well decades later.
> ...


This is a strong argument for keeping it, and you're correct, material costs are through the roof.

The bathroom is on a small slab, clearly undermined by extensive tunneling. Broken toilet, broken sink, cracked pipes, and a water tank that may or may not work (it's hooked up to a well and the toilet to septic). Whoever wired everything in there seems to have used short scraps of left over wire twisted together and uncapped.

Redoing the electrical is within my wheelhouse. I'm not an electrician, but decent enough especially since it's just a pole barn.

For the plumbing… while I have replaced toilets before I'd probably need a pro to fully rethink/redesign the space. I also probably need to tear up the undermined slab and start that from scratch.

Onky the bathroom had insulation, and mice seemed to have stolen most and pooped in the rest. I got rid of that a few weeks ago.


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## Alphacat (Apr 29, 2021)

> Here in the USA, we have companies that clean up after storms and floods. You may have a similar service in Scotland.
> 
> - MrRon


Oh, sorry! I'm in the Pacific Northwest of the US… me and my buds call disaster bathrooms the 'worst toilet in Scotland' as a reference to a scene from Trainspotting (book/movie) and I typed it without even considering it was misleading. Misleading about location, at least, the bathroom is foul.


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## david2011 (Apr 1, 2008)

The house I bought previous to the current one had a 36×36 building. It had a sliding door with a 2" gap around it so the New Mexico sand and dust had an easy entry point. Fortunately, I didn't have the rodent issues you describe and it already had a concrete floor. There was electrical service but no plumbing. We built walls within the building and insulated smaller rooms that each had climate control. An overhead door replaced the sliding door with huge gaps. I wired each room with plenty of electrical service, added lighting, air conditioning and heaters. That was still far less costly than tearing down and starting over.


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## CaptainKlutz (Apr 23, 2014)

+1 If structurally sound, keep it. Even a building shell is expensive to re-create.

1) Call a couple metal building contractors and ask for quotes on clean up and upgrade to turn into a clean work shop. Unless you are crazy rich, won't use them for the entire project, only parts. So ask for quotes in stages you can afford. Best part: contractors will explain what needs to be done, so you can decide if DIY is worth your time.

2) Don't renovate bathroom until entire floor has been upgraded. Will likely need to have 6-12" of dirt hauled out of bldg, then back fill with gravel, before pouring new slab. This is time to add vermin proof floor drains, new bathroom plumbing,, plus embed in-floor heating/cooling lines in concrete under shop area. Since in PNW, might want to leave room in bathroom for dry sauna and multi-head shower stall for his/hers enjoyment too? 

3) Suggest might want outside help for proper clean up, new concrete floor, new roll up door, plus proper flashing/insulation to seal out vermin. Do not be surprised if the ex-sperts recommend new landscaping around building. Having 4-6 foot open area, with proper flashing, sloped gravel drainage away from building; does wonders for keeping vermin away, and keeping an eye on their return. Also makes it easier for monthly pesticide application in warmer months to keep bugs out.

As the family handy man, got sucked onto similar exercise when my sister bought a property with an animal barn. Pressure washing the entire inside of building did wonders for improving the smell. Removing a foot of contaminated dirt, and pouring a concrete floor, and finally adding some spray foam insulation; and you never knew how bad it was before.

Best Luck.


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## RClark (Jun 1, 2012)

If it was me, I'd rehab the current structure.

The cost of tearing down, removal of debris, and then rebuilding today, with all the supply chain and lead times would make a new structure way out of cost parameters. Any permits needed could also be easier if you're rehabbing an existing structure vice building new.

1. Get rid of the rats; this is job #1. Trapping is time consuming, poison is faster, but with greater risk of secondary effects. Eliminating any potential food source will assist greatly in the task.

2. There's no getting around a deep cleaning; job#2. This appears to be your main challenge, based on your post. An additional psychological benefit of the cleaning process would be that since it's so gross, once it's done, you will feel invincible with a renewed energy to continue with the rest. When we moved to our acreage, there were a lot of things to be cleaned and rehabbed. Getting them clean to begin with made the rest of the process seem easier mentally.

3. Concrete floor. Once it's in, you can decide if you want to build an inner structure, insulated with nice electrics and lighting and get your dream shop going in that space. The remainder of the structure could be used for covered storage, added parking, or even vehicle maintenance space.

Our acreage already had an existing 25X44 outbuilding that I turned into the shop with storage space for mower, snowblower, ATV, etc. It had a rodent problem in the walls and the storage loft was literally covered with dead flies and dust. Once Darling Wife and I got a handle on the cleaning and getting rid of the gazillion dead flies, I felt like I could conquer anything, and that change in mind set enabled so much more around the rest of the property.

From what you describe, I see a lot of potential. Cleaning it will reveal so many opportunities to do what you want.

Good luck. I'd be interested to learn about what you decide and see pics of the results!


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## ocean (Feb 13, 2016)

If you are going to rehab the old structure, before you pour concrete, lay down some plastic sheeting to act as barrier to the mess mixed in the gravel (i.e. rat poop etc.). It does eliminate most smells from wafting in to your new construction. Also before the concrete/plastic sheeting, soak down the gravel to dissolve the the existing mess and drive it into the ground (add something liquid "pine sol" that smells good too the water). I had a smaller project like yours and tried this technique with a fair amount of success.


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## Alphacat (Apr 29, 2021)

> +1 If structurally sound, keep it. Even a building shell is expensive to re-create.
> 
> 1) Call a couple metal building contractors and ask for quotes on clean up and upgrade to turn into a clean work shop. Unless you are crazy rich, won t use them for the entire project, only parts. So ask for quotes in stages you can afford. Best part: contractors will explain what needs to be done, so you can decide if DIY is worth your time.
> 
> ...


Solid advice. This thread is a roller coaster! The first few posts had me bulldozing it, but now it seems the general consensus is rehab. I like the idea of having professionals throw some ideas and bids around. They might see dangers or potentials I'm missing, as well as let me get a grip on the total job. Plus I honestly have no idea what kind of money we are talking here (floor, bathroom, flashing, new door, etc).

My main problem so far is despite the many hours I've already vested dealing with the worst of it, there has been so little progress. I mean, sure, it looks better, and even smells better (still bad), but it feels futile. If spending dollars in addition to time I need better results, and it's wonderful to hear people who have pulled it off exist.

I'm curious about the idea of removing gravel/dirt. That might really help. I don't know where the remaining odor is coming from, and am particularly concerned about the rainy season next year increasing the stink (Pacific Northwest and all).

The area around the shop should never have really attracted rodents the way it did… the previous owner did it a disservice using it for livestock and feed. It really brought the vermin in.

There is actually a barn with an even worse issue. However, beyond being a barn it offers little potential. I have the same decision with that building.


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## Alphacat (Apr 29, 2021)

> If it was me, I d rehab the current structure.
> 
> The cost of tearing down, removal of debris, and then rebuilding today, with all the supply chain and lead times would make a new structure way out of cost parameters. Any permits needed could also be easier if you re rehabbing an existing structure vice building new.
> 
> ...


Thanks so much for this and the rest of the posts here, you guys are great.

1) I've been working on the rats. Mostly through exclusion techniques. There's a lot of farm and bramble around us (that is, up against our property) so it would be impossible to get them off our property completely… but I need them out of my outbuildings. My shop, especially, and then I need to work on the barn. If rat poop was worth money, I'd be rich… I could use a snow shovel in one part of the barn.

Doesn't help that my wife had me read up on hanta virus.

Honestly, though, it's easier than the time I had to clean up a 10×20 racoon latrine on a roof.

2) I actually don't mind doing the cleaning… i dont get grossed out easily, and don't mind doing dirty jobs. Its the futility so far that is getting to me. That is, the feeling that even if I put in another 40 hours it will still stink and feel sketchy.

Perhaps I should do a complete tear out. The 'reuser' in me keeps trying to 'keep' anything I think might be worthwhile… like a filthy workbench, or parts of the shelving thar didn't have droppings, or the wood frame of the bathroom. I should probably just burn all of that and start completely fresh inside the shell.

One of the shelves (only one, oddly) had significant Carpenter ant damage but I didn't see any evidence the posts had them.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

People buy old barns and convert them to homes with good results all the time.

I know of one that turned out beautiful, BUT they put in wood floors without taking out the existing dirt, OR pouring concrete over the existing floor. Come summer and they knew they screwed up. A concrete pour solved the problem.

I had to renovate a house with wood floors that were saturated with pee. I, literally, flooded the floor and vacuumed (a Craftsman with a pump) the water up. I kept going until I got reasonably clear water. Then the drying started.

When done (dry), I flooded the floors with oil based paint. I thinned the first batch I'd bought of miss-mixes for about a buck a gallon. That worked for sealing the wood.

I ended up renting the place for a couple years, before moving back to Eastern Washington, and all was well.

In other words, the gravel shouldn't be a problem, if you can pour cement or concrete over it. If in doubt, you could flood the concrete/cement with sealer, be it sodium silicate (water glass) or a commercial product. Either, essentially, turns the concrete into bastard granite.

In the end, it all boils down to the value of the building you'd tear down and put back up. The savings of using the existing building could go to insulation, wiring, the bathroom, and a bit of exterior sprucing, be it siding half way up a corrugated wall or what have you.

As to "happy wife," as a fellow said, "happy spouse" makes more sense. That includes you and is worth working for. If it's just all about the wife, get a new one that isn't so damn high maintenance and uncompromising.

NOTE: Sell the old one, if you can, to offset the cost of the remodel, but meet in a parking lot, so they don't know where you live and try to bring her back.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

I forgot to add the obvious: You were talking about a possible demo anyway, so limiting demolition to the bathroom should be no big deal.

Most of us can do plumbing. We still hire experts to do EXACTLY what we want. Once all the vents and drains are in and the floor finished, the rest is simple sheet rock and wood work that you'd save a fortune doing yourself, and would learn a lot from it.

Even hired pro's need direction though. Elsewhere on these pages are horror stories of expert electricians wiring shop outlets with 14 gauge, because that's all code required. Remember, codes are just the minimum. It's okay to do better.

For example, if power might EVER go out, plan on not only protecting water lines (not sewer) inside of insulated walls, but wrapping them in foam to give yourself an even better fighting chance of surviving the power losses.

On that, it's wonderful having a building that is both easy to heat and holds the heat. So too it goes with cooling. In short, put the money that would have gone into a new structure towards better building.

I had a house in Pacific Beach, Washington. When I moved in, the basement had a sliding door. Translated, I had rats and ferrets, until I tore the slider off and enclosed the wall, with a four foot door. After, critters could no longer get in and I was actually able to heat the basement.


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## Foghorn (Jan 30, 2020)

A Bobcat or similar to remove 6" to 12" of gravel and dirt. A layer of 3/4" crush compacted to 98% and definitely a polyethylene sheet under the concrete as previously suggested, 6 mil minimum and preferably 10 mil. It makes for much stronger concrete and also helps a lot with humidity in the shop from concrete continually wicking moisture (and smell) from the existing grade.


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## Alphacat (Apr 29, 2021)

> A Bobcat or similar to remove 6" to 12" of gravel and dirt. A layer of 3/4" crush compacted to 98% and definitely a polyethylene sheet under the concrete as previously suggested, 6 mil minimum and preferably 10 mil. It makes for much stronger concrete and also helps a lot with humidity in the shop from concrete continually wicking moisture (and smell) from the existing grade.
> 
> - Foghorn


I had no idea concrete could wick the smells from underneath up through it. Thanks for the head up, and I will keep that in mind no matter what we do.


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## Alphacat (Apr 29, 2021)

> As to "happy wife," as a fellow said, "happy spouse" makes more sense. That includes you and is worth working for. If it s just all about the wife, get a new one that isn t so damn high maintenance and uncompromising.
> 
> NOTE: Sell the old one, if you can, to offset the cost of the remodel, but meet in a parking lot, so they don t know where you live and try to bring her back.
> 
> - Kelly


Sell my wife in a parking lot? Lol. No, my wife is awesome. (Jk, i know what you meant). I read her all of your posts because she's willing to hear good ideas and learn from them. She's just grossed out by the buildings (shop and barn). And honestly, it's justified, though they are vastly improved since we moved in due to me tearing so much out.


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## bigJohninvegas (May 25, 2014)

You are in a tough spot for sure. Decision, decision. 
I would want to save such a large space. 
And with a limited budget I would be looking at what can I do this year. 
Obviously the gravel floor has to go, and while you are excavating the floor. All underground has to be made right. 
i.e., plumbing, and electrical. 
That fixes the smell, and give you a good foundation to do what you can, as you can. 
With the mention of the type of work you do. It does not sound like you need that large of a shop. 
But with a structure that large you can have your shop totally separate and still have room for what ever you and your wife may desire. 
I see that you mention guest quarters.. And question if the structure itself is sound. 
Aside from the stinky gravel floor, and that sliding door. If the rest of the structure is sound. 
A long term, slower rehab as you can afford to may be the way to go.

I am living in the city, with high property prices. No way I can afford a free standing shop/outbuilding. 
Or the property for it for that matter.
20 year old 3 bedroom, 3 car garage. 
So my garage is my shop. started out with a single electrical outlet. propane heat for the winter, and a fan for the summer. one year I was able to upgrade the 120v electrical. Should have done 220v at the same time. but cost and need made that a few years later. Couple years back I got a mini split HVAC. 
Same story in the house. Rented it out for a couple years, and the renters really tore it up. 
When we moved back in we had to live with it. Picked my battles as I could afford too.
Bathrooms one year, Kitchen the next. Had to save a couple years and did all new flooring. 
About a year ago had to do a new HVAC for the main house. 
Pick your battles and do what you can as you can.. 
Some day that big barn will be very nice. 
Good luck,


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

Here's my thinking:

First of all, pics would be VERY nice to look at!!

You've got an existing structure that has value. Is the metal in good shape? Is the building an eyesore? (Metal can be painted). The odors can be dealt with: even your work so far has helped, no reason to doubt grading out the dirt, pressure washing the interior & bleaching. Even removing some metal panels to improve air flow.

Have you priced concrete? That could put a huge dent in your $30K budget.

Plumbing is not that expensive to redo Electrics much more expensive. Check codes does your county allow homeowner wiring?

VERSUS-

Tear down and rebuild.

Demo and debris removal cost?

DIY or hiring a contractor?. Where I live, good luck on find one to build. Yes, you'll have new, but MUCH smaller building.

My vote: Keep the building and fix it up. First order of business, remove some panels and get it aired out.


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## paulLumberJock (Aug 5, 2020)

Another comment.. It's hard to comment without actually seeing pictures.
But can you just forget about the bathroom for now (other than a cleanup, and fix any kind of drain pipe issues before the concrete is poured in).. In other words, get the rest of the building done, worry about the bathroom later, that would save some money. Honestly, it's nice to have a bathroom, but really low on the list of what needs to be done.. The bathroom door could be closed and forgotten about.. then you can come back years later and finish it if you really want to.

Another suggestion.. We had a problem with mice on our property. There's pet safe/wildlife safe outdoor poison stations like below. I put three around my house (outside) and it made a huge difference. I would put some of them out ASAP. 
https://www.tomcatbrand.com/en-us/products/mouse-baits/tomcat-rat-mouse-killer-child-dog-resistant-refillable-station


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## tomsteve (Jan 23, 2015)

who in their right mind would tear down a large building to build a smaller one????
no one has EVER said,"i should have built a smaller shop." 
MANY have said,"i should have built it bigger."

you have the structure already. if there is nothing wrong structurally, gut it and finish it how you want.
go to your local farm store and pick up a truckload of lime dust. spread it over the gravel until you pour a slab. https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/waukesha-lime-barnlime-50-lb-bag-5055767?store=1772&cm_mmc=feed-_-GoogleShopping-_-Product-_-5055767&gclid=Cj0KCQjwvr6EBhDOARIsAPpqUPGCyJXjKbUn6H0LelJx3kxa4FH9vm9BLHpPeH4XgLOiljpLpOKk0NsaAgV5EALw_wcB


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## Alphacat (Apr 29, 2021)

> Another comment.. It s hard to comment without actually seeing pictures.
> But can you just forget about the bathroom for now (other than a cleanup, and fix any kind of drain pipe issues before the concrete is poured in).. In other words, get the rest of the building done, worry about the bathroom later, that would save some money. Honestly, it s nice to have a bathroom, but really low on the list of what needs to be done.. The bathroom door could be closed and forgotten about.. then you can come back years later and finish it if you really want to.
> 
> Another suggestion.. We had a problem with mice on our property. There s pet safe/wildlife safe outdoor poison stations like below. I put three around my house (outside) and it made a huge difference. I would put some of them out ASAP.
> ...


The bathroom sits on a small, undermined slab and has both plumbing and electrical issues. The area also has an odor as it was infested under (rats) and behind the walls (mice). I don't think I could even begin to rehab the building without directly addressing the bathroom and ripping it out. I wouldn't need to finish the bathroom, of course, but there definitely is more to it than close the door and forget. The slab would need to go and all the various pipes going into the ground would need a professional looking at before a new slab was put down.

I will see if I can get some photos today, though at this point I've put in enough work it doesn't look nearly as bad as it did, lol.


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## Ocelot (Mar 6, 2011)

Don't forget to consider the value of your time.

When I had my shop built, it was up in about 2 weeks. In another week the garage doors and electrical were done. Then there it was. It would have taken me years to do it on my own. It still took me 3 or 4 years to get around to putting the flooring in the attic and it's still not insulated. Time is life.

-Paul


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

Paul has a good point. I remember renovating a bathroom at the house. I know how to do everything so I did. Had to replace a support beam, all the joists, new plywood, new plumbing etc. The cost was right but I can recall her saying "I could of had a baby quicker". She has lined up a contractor to redo the same bathroom again and I keep my mouth shut.


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## Alphacat (Apr 29, 2021)

Is photobucket the only way to post images? I don't have an account there (or anywhere).


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## Foghorn (Jan 30, 2020)

> Is photobucket the only way to post images? I don t have an account there (or anywhere).
> 
> - Alphacat


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## Alphacat (Apr 29, 2021)

Ok, here come some images. I may need to do in batches…

Please note almost all of these images are post many hours of clean up of rat droppings, hundreds of feathers from slaughter, etc. so it doesn't look nearly as dire as it did. For example, you can no longer tell how many rat tunnels used to be under the slab because i filled them with gravel to see if they were still active. The bathroom floor is still filthy but actually has been through a round of cleaning already…

I am terrible at taking before photos, though do have one i think.










Likely my only before pic.



















Wiring between sink and water tank. If I turn on water under sink, this gets sprayed by pipe leaks










'Wiring' between sink and toilet










Under the sink… the rubble is a mix of insulation and rubble that i believe was dug up by rats.



















The siding that is left is just the stuff i haven't got to yet. It reeks, and the insulation that was behind it all was full of mouse poop, dead rodents. Oh, the roof this thing used to have was covered in rat poop and hornets nests.

Some structural shots in next post.


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## Alphacat (Apr 29, 2021)

Yes, this outlet is live….










But new fuse box and rv at least…










Shelving in back corner… i have removed the shelves themselves due to thick rat dropping coverage… including this corner to show what j think is carpenter ant damage to some wood - only this piece and the one going behind it (removed) seemed affected, though




























Entire back 3 feet or so is loose gravel and dirt like this…. tunnels so extensive you'd sink in when you walked.



















Workbench only that 'clean' because i removed the top layer. Also a thousand feathers around area. I have no idea what the black and white pipes going into the ground are for.










Another random white pipe in the ground on far side. Maybe wiring used to go underground and across? No idea.










Slider with bullet/pellet holes. All windows also came with holes free of charge.



















Some exterior. The buckled part is where the slider hits it sometimes


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## Alphacat (Apr 29, 2021)

This is the barn, not the workshop but am including because since i haven't cleaned it up yet it gives a sense of the vileness i dealt with


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## RClark (Jun 1, 2012)

Thanks for the pics. I imagined a weather-tight structure, but it doesn't look like that. Are those translucent panels on the roof?

I'm still inclined to advise keeping the structure.

I would give very strong consideration to building a good "building in a building" for shop space. For the rest, I'd cover the floor in concrete and use it for storage and parking.

Bathroom is gross, but I've seen worse. The airport bathroom at Mogadishu, Somalia in December 1992 comes to remembrance. No kidding.


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## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

After looking at pics..

Tear it down (neatly), pressure wash & salvage metal & trusses. Cut poles off at ground level and save for new building.

Bulldoze remainder and plant wildflowers.

Move to a clean location and pour slab & footing per comments above, somewhat smaller (pocket slab savings for new stuff you'll need.)

Build back better recycling what works.


Your wife will be happy old crap is now flowers.
You'll be happy because you'll have nice smelling, clean, stable floored shop tailored to your specific desires. 
Your bank account will be happy because of reduced slab costs and recycled materials. 
Your energy $$$ will be happy at the reduction in heat/cool costs since new construction will be *tight* instead of drafty energy suck.
Your building inspector will be happy that new construction is up to code.


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## bigJohninvegas (May 25, 2014)

Wow, I have seen this sort of mess before, and can imagen the smell. 
Helped a friend out years ago cleaning up a storage building on his new property. 
Just walking in to see it days before we actually started working, and I felt like I needed to shower.

But it does seem like you are on the right track. And add that you are crazy for thinking of tearing it down. 
I will hold onto my original comments. 
The structure looks like it has a lot of promise. And I would definitely save it.
I would do a complete gut of it all. Obviously there is nothing in that bathroom worth saving. 
And the mess of electrical too. I would save the new electrical components for sure. But everything past that new work would have to go. 
Not sure if you would do your own electrical or hire a pro. I know a couple electricians. so I have done a little on my own with there guidance. and then they come in and do the finish work. 
The pipes sticking out of the ground concern me as to what they are. 
But I still think excavating out the floor for concrete should be 1st. Build a good foundation for it all. And while there take care of at least the underground section of plumbing and electrical. Make sure its all good before that concrete pour. A little exploration, or Potholing around the pipes will ID what they are. the concerning part is are they old drains? Are you on city sewer system or a septic, leech field on your property? 
And you mentioned the door needing replacing, and rodent, critter control and all broken glass, Although the cleaning and concrete work I think would take care of most of that. And the fact that you are not using it as a slaughter house.

I sure could not afford to just dive in and finish the whole project all at once. 
But if you can manage making the building sound, weather tight again. You will not be sorry. 
Then pick a project as you can afford to do so. 
You and your wife will get to choose it all. Shop space, storage space, Kids fort, play areas. 
Guest quarters I think is questionable? 
but not impossible. 
Little bit here and there. It will take shape faster than you think. 
Good luck.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

If I got a piece of property and this was on it, I'd be excited, even knowing what a major clean up I had to do.

As to rust near the bottom of the metal, oh well:

- You can add decades of use with rust neutralizer and oil based paint.

- On the coast of the Pacific Northwet, I used old corrugated metal from one of the cedar mills for roofing. I flooded it with tar, then covered it in sand. It looked great, and showed ZERO signs of wear, compared to the glass that was on the roof [of the place I rented, and which a storm destroyed (I was a landlord's dream)].

I've added cedar to the bottom of fences, under the lower, horizontal 2x, to hid rot, and it gave the owner years more service with the fortune of replacing the entire board.


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## Alphacat (Apr 29, 2021)

> Thanks for the pics. I imagined a weather-tight structure, but it doesn t look like that. Are those translucent panels on the roof?
> 
> I m still inclined to advise keeping the structure.
> 
> ...


Yes, those are translucent panels… just filthy ones. The area is weather proof insomuch as no rain gets in, but obviously not airtight so there is certainly going to be humidity, especially during rainy season. And it isn't insulated at all… well, the bathroom sort of was.

What kind of budget would you think is reasonable? Like, how much money is worth dropping into this before it becomes better to just build something new? Worth considering, my wife hates the wrecked baby blue look of it… during my research I found one site which suggested residing is easier than painting! (Which scares me)


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## Alphacat (Apr 29, 2021)

> Wow, I have seen this sort of mess before, and can imagen the smell.
> Helped a friend out years ago cleaning up a storage building on his new property.
> Just walking in to see it days before we actually started working, and I felt like I needed to shower.
> 
> ...


Yeah, the smell has vastly improved since I started, but is still rough. My biggest fear is even if I do a full clean, come rainy season the stink will come back in spades with the humidity. My area is pretty dry heat for the summer, but typical rainy PNW all winter… and with humidity will come odors.

Regarding electrical- no experience dealing with panels directly (would need pro) but would be comfortable running rest of electrical (my wife and I both are comfortable with basic electrical home repair - adding outlets, hardwiring, etc.). I've never taken on a project that large before but only the time scares me, not the actual work.

Pipes… yeah. I have no idea. I know the previous owner ran pipe from somewhere to the front road for future plans to add a street light or automated gate. I have no idea where the other end of said pipe is… maybe the black pipe under the workbench? I do not know what the various white pipes are.

The bathroom is on well water (our house is on city water). The bathroom runs to the same septic tank our house is on. Both tank and leech field a couple hundred a decent distance away.

Oh, and about 30 feet from the shop is another well and septic hookup for an RV, with the electrical hookup in the shop.

Financially… well, yeah, given the current economy part of me doesn't want to spend any money. It's hard to commit to a number, because it depends so much on the end result. Our house sold for more than we expected, so we have a small bit we can spend or save. If spending 30k got us a shop and a place for relatives to stay (even a decent RV), we could probably swing it. If 20k only got us an ugly but okay shop that stinks for the wet months, then no way. If 20k got us top notch shop plus solid storage that my wife didn't consider an eyesore, and we needed to wait a year to get an RV, we could probably do that. (I mention rv because it seems like a way to provide both living arraignments for visitors while providing us functionality… whereas just an adu only helps vistors. A couple of our relatives are highly allergic to animals and need a place to stay, but we have time on our side before they visit).

My wife views this more as an aesthetic thing. She dislikes both of the outbuildings, but recognizes the need for a shop, storage, an eventual place for people to stay, etc. I realize this isn't a particularly clear budget, but I have a feeling people understand the basic conundrum of trying to make finite resources meet complex needs. As far as my wife is concerned, she'd be okay with a new shed, new small shop, and eventual rv just to wash her hands of it all. But she also listens intently to the comments here and understands the value in keeping a working structure.


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## Alphacat (Apr 29, 2021)

> After looking at pics..
> 
> Tear it down (neatly), pressure wash & salvage metal & trusses. Cut poles off at ground level and save for new building.
> 
> ...


If we took this path, I would definitely need pro help with the demo and rebuild. (I could do the power washing, obviously). Is it easy to find contractors willing to upcycle materials like this? Everyone i've dealt with always seems to want to make a little cash buying materials.


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## WoodES (Oct 8, 2013)

Try cleaning a small area very carefully. Then, given everything a couple of coats of zinser or other high quality stain & odor blocking primer, then a couple of top coats of paint. See what happens.

Maybe even a pro that can perform a steam cleaning (not sure if this is unobtainium or not) Servpros or other professional cleaning and restoration. The type that come in after a fire and clean and remove the smoke odor. They can treat the walls and expose hard surfaces.

Floor, remove a couple of feet of the gravel or soil, spread that elsewhere. Bring fill and top with 6'' of road base for subgrade then a concrete slab. This should eliminate much of the odor. I would suspect the affected area would be less than 8 feet height and then the ground surface..

Looks like a good space, but it's a big job to restore it to a desirable function.


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## CaptainKlutz (Apr 23, 2014)

IMHO - Nothing wrong with that structure. Easily salvageable.

1) Stop guessing on costs.
As I suggest before, call several professional metal barn builders for upgrade quotes.

Don't forget to look online for construction cost estimators. 
This one might help. Have no idea on accuracy.

2) Build Guest Quarters?

This is an expensive decision. BTDTGTTS
It is easy to construct a frame building within your metal structure. I helped wire up a ~800sqft 2 bedroom apt inside a 40×60 metal barn, years ago as Mother in Law suite. The area above the apt was built as an attic for storage. The rest was; RV, tractor, and vehicle parking with separate gun/ammo reloading room for my BIL. The cost to build that apartment, install extra shop bathroom, and his shop was double your max budget, and that was over a decade ago. Estimate it would be triple your budget today.

You mentioned budget of $20-30K. Compromise is required. 
For reference, it costs $15-20K to build a new 20×25 unfinished garage on slab in most areas. And that shop only has three 120v outlets, some lights, and electric garage door. By salvaging your existing building, you will save money.

My suggestion is to buy a nice used RV for your house guests, and put ~$20-25K into the existing metal building, with new slab, nice large bathroom/shower, clean/paint everything, add some extra power outlets, and have clean work space for what every want.

At later date; 
- build out a studio style apt with kitchen sharing bathroom wall to use same drains/water. Can use roof as attic for wood storage.
- Build a noisy closet for air compressor and DC, next to a closed room for finishing.
etc, etc, etc. 
LOL

Best Luck.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

As a handyman and remodeler, you see stuff uglier than this. My last big remodel was an 80 year old farmhouse. The attic had bat guano piled a foot and a half tall near their access point, so the insulation and such was nothing near pretty.

I bought a lot of oil based paint, fired up the airless, and painted a lot of bats white. The oil REALLY changed the smell (sealed it in).


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## RClark (Jun 1, 2012)

> Thanks for the pics. I imagined a weather-tight structure, but it doesn t look like that. Are those translucent panels on the roof?
> 
> I m still inclined to advise keeping the structure.
> 
> ...


I agree with earlier comments and I think you should get somebody to give you an estimate of what the work would cost for your area. That's the only way you'll make an informed decision.

My only recent experience with this is the construction of our machine shed last summer before lumber went nutso cost-wise. 25X30, 8 foot overhead doors, 2×4 framing, sided, all concrete work was $40/sq ft. No electrics or plumbing. It was a clean work site and the concrete guys were able to come in and start digging for the concrete pad right away.

My machine shed had no old structure to remove.

I asked the concrete guy when he was here about adding poured concrete parking area to existing area, and his off-the-cuff response was $4 to $4.25 per sq ft. That would be all prepped, poured, and finished.

I think cost on these items is very locale-specific.

One thing not discussed much in this thread is the zoning authority and permitting. I don't know where you are, and some locales are stricter than others, and they do evolve over time. Is it possible that code requirements have changed for your area and your existing building wouldn't get permitted for new construction if it was to be built today? If you tear down the structure, would you be allowed to replace it with same size new in the same location? Are there other things with that structure that need to be brought up to current code depending on how much work you do to it?


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

You have a sound looking structure there. You've already done a heap of work and are well on your way to rehabbing it.

All that's left is demo out all extraneously framing & bathroom. Pressure wash walls inside and out-you'll be amazed at the result. Bleach everything down. Consider buying an 20 gallon agricultural sprayer for this.

As I mentioned, metal buildings can be painted. Not absolutely necessary, but a new coat of paint would do wonders.

You're probably better off replacing skylights with metal.

I would grade out 6" or so of the dirt and refill/pour concrete (let the concrete people do this).

Good advise re: zoning. I would get a concrete quote ASAP so you know where you're at budget-wise.

Adopt a few semi-wild house cats, don't feed 'em too much ;-)


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## Alphacat (Apr 29, 2021)

> IMHO - Nothing wrong with that structure. Easily salvageable.
> 
> 1) Stop guessing on costs.
> As I suggest before, call several professional metal barn builders for upgrade quotes.
> ...


I have a contractor who does this sort of thing coming out Saturday, will report back. It was surprisingly hard to find one using the internet in my state, despite there being a lot of pole barns out here. Maybe I've gotten terrible at the internet. Angieslist has gone downhill.

Dividing the place in half was my first thought upon seeing the structure. Bathroom could have doors to both shop and adu, shared electrical, etc. I even had the 'roof storage' idea. It was the only way I could see achieving everything in a cost effective manner. It just seemed smart to keep the structure. I think, ultimately, I was demoralized by all the effort I've put in so far to still have a space I wouldn't want my kids to breath the air in. Add in my wife rooting to get rid of the eyesore, and just building a new structure… and the idea of rehab felt more and more like a money pit. but I agree, 30k isn't enough to rebuild anything close to this.

We do not want to spend that much on an adu… we have a couple highly allergic relatives that visit, at most, once a year, and while I love them, I'm not dropping 30 or 60k on a building that sees no other use. It needs to either go hand in hand with the build, or we go the RV route so it's dual use.


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## CaptainKlutz (Apr 23, 2014)

> ... It was surprisingly hard to find one using the internet in my state, despite there being a lot of pole barns out here. Maybe I ve gotten terrible at the internet. Angieslist has gone downhill. - Alphacat


Gosh Darnit. You must be one of them there city slickers? :-(0)
hehe

If you live out in middle of nowhere, surrounded by farming country, realize rural folks do not have a lot of time to sit around on PC and deal with internet. They are either out working, or home taking care of family.

Suggest you use old school networking - ask your neighbors. 
VISIT the local Farm & Fleet, Tractor Supply Store, or local hardware store; and ask if they have a contractor board. Most of these places keep a cork board where folks can post their business card, when they stop by for supplies. The local help will know the better ones to call.

Another old school network location to VISIT is lumber yards, or plumbing & electrical supply houses. If you need concrete contractors, VISIT the local cement manufacturer. Contractors pass through these places often. If ask at counter and might find out some one's cousin does concrete/electrical/plumbing and is willing to quote the job.

If you can not find these supply houses, ask Google maps for 'concrete manufacture near me' or 'lumber yard near me'.

BTW - Rural contractors are much easier to research for past work. Ask for 3 past work references, call them all. Maybe drive by and look at work. Then call their parents and ask them for recommendation. As long as the kid does not work for family business and was secretly moon lighting on your job, parents won't let the black sheep of family steal money from new neighbors honoring the old ways. 

Welcome to the rural life, a mix of internet and the methods our grandparents used.


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## Alphacat (Apr 29, 2021)

> ... It was surprisingly hard to find one using the internet in my state, despite there being a lot of pole barns out here. Maybe I ve gotten terrible at the internet. Angieslist has gone downhill. - Alphacat Gosh Darnit. You must be one of them there city slickers? :-(0)
> hehe
> 
> If you live out in middle of nowhere, surrounded by farming country, realize rural folks do not have a lot of time to sit around on PC and deal with internet. They are either out working, or home taking care of family.
> ...


That obvious? Yeah, I spent most of my life in big cities. I've been in the PNW for almost twenty years now, and we were watching everything fall apart around us so went rural. I don't know how political this board is so I won't get to into it, but lets just say there is no way in hell I wanted my kids to grown up with the nonsense around us. My wife was happy to leave too, violence and homelessness and general idiocy were out of hand. We're still close enough to easily drive to stuff, but I am more than happy I live more than one dirt road off the beaten path around like minded people.


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## Alphacat (Apr 29, 2021)

Thank you all for so much input. I have been processing it all, even if I dont respond to every good idea or useful tip.

I've also been crunching numbers. As I mentioned, I do have a contractor coming out Saturday. To keep this project in the realm of reasonably priced, I am considering the following:










Basically-

-Only slab for the workshop/bathroom. Rest stays gravel… I may still need remove and replace the gravel to help with the odor, but this should save big on concrete. I almost just want to invest in bleach and soak the floor.lll

-workshop framed and roofed. I suppose I can't avoid insulating it, and maybe a minisplit? Depends on $$.

-rat guard around entire base

-replace all broken windows, maybe add a couple

-redo bathroom (new sink, toilet, water tank)

-entire front wall will likely be redone. Between replacing slider, beat up siding, and the rotted door frame, I think the only real solution is just tearing it all out. My wife will be happy since it will look much better as well.

-clean, repair, repaint other 3 sides.

-I'm debating on length of workshop… I want to leave enough room behind it to have non-cramped storage (camping gear, holiday stuff, etc). 12 feet is probably enough, leaving 28 for the workshop. Only paving about 15×28 should save considerably compared to 30×40

-the side with gravel can be used for eventual RV and other yard vehicles/machinery

-rewire all outlets and replace all lighting

-i guess it makes sense to build a stairway to the workshop roof? I can do that myself. Any advice on how high the workshop roof should be?

-replace all the filthy translucent panels (are they fiberglass? They look like whatever was coating them is all coming off, like the back of a cat scratched couch). Should I stick with a more modern tranlucent solution or just go with metal?

-possibly add a couple doors to allow easier access to various areas, windows for light.

I'm still a little concerned this won't totally obliterate the odor, but I think it would feel a thousand times better. Of course, this all depends on what kind of bids I see.

My wife is okay with this… she's pretty against any sort of ADU built in (i also debated with turning the area behind the shop into 15×15 'bedroom' and moving the bathroom to share it, but she just isn't convinced it would be worth it, nor that it would feel inhabitable. So, storage instead, and any money saves goes to an eventual rv to accomplish that need.


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

Don't forget the cats!


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## RClark (Jun 1, 2012)

Alright! Getting some structure to the idea with a plan. Good for you!

Shop ceiling height: I'd go minimum of ten feet, twelve if possible. Being able to swing a full eight-foot board or stand a sheet of plywood on end without worrying about overhead obstructions is a real plus. It keeps lighting, HVAC, and dust collection ducting up and out of the way. Once you figure thsi out, you'll be able to determine the height of the outer shell of the shop area.

Habitable space: Things get complicated with permitting if any of this could be used as "habitable" space, so you're probably better off just keeping it to work space.

Concrete work: When you get bids for the concrete work, ask for the cost delta between just the shop and the whole structure. Getting the crew there and getting it formed up is where the cost is. The concrete itself is the cheap part. You might save on concrete work by only finishing to indoor standards for the workspace piece and leave the rest of the structure rough like a driveway.

Translucent panels: If they're weather-tight, I'd leave them for now and put them on the list for a future date. Having some natural light inside that structure is a plus in my mind.


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## Alphacat (Apr 29, 2021)

> Don't forget the cats!
> 
> - Robert


I have no problem adding 'barn cats' to the building (we've taken in ferals berore)... I guess I would need to add a cat door to a door? I suppose the cats wouldn't abide by rats also using said door.


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## RClark (Jun 1, 2012)

I've thought about adding a barn cat to our outbuildings. However, I've always been concerned about adding doors that will allow skunks, possums, and raccoons to enter as well.


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## Ocelot (Mar 6, 2011)

My shop cat get's let in and out. No cat door. That does mean a litter box, however. Also, if nobody lets him out for 2 days he does nothing but eat.


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## CaptainKlutz (Apr 23, 2014)

+1 RClark on concrete work. 
Getting all necessary tools and people to site is part of the cost challenge. It cost a lot more to do partial slab now, and finish it later; then it does to do whole thing at one time. The incremental cost will be less than you think, as contractor will use more gravel to replace concrete and keep things level.

FWIW - A gravel floor in an enclosed barn creates a tremendous amount of dust. Gravel floors are OK with a working barn, where the tractor and other implements provide used oil that can annually be sprayed to keep dust down. But for storage barn, gravel makes everything dusty/gritty all the time. Also, Stone dust is not kind to knife edges on wood working tools. Would not want my wood pile stored in barn with fresh new gravel floor.

IME - Installing a 100% coverage concrete floor will make the single largest difference between nice work shop with large storage area; and just a dusty old barn with a shop. Plus, SWMBO will be more inclined to use barn without gravel floor.

Best Luck.


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## Barkley (Jun 28, 2019)

Personally I would sit down with someone that could help in making a list of all the costs with each option. Everything from removing the old rock, pouring concrete and completely building out the current building. From the size of it and what your needs will be you might end up with a dual purpose building (shop on one side and storage on the other). Figure what it would cost to remove the old building, start from scratch and build a entire shop from the ground up. 
Don't forget the benefit of the old building possibly having SEPERATE storage. 
Sure you might now think that you just need a small space now (like I did 40+ years ago), but now I have a very bad case of the hobby, tool addiction, and need for extra room and wouldn't change for anything. Now since I've retired this hobby keeps me out of trouble (kinda) daily. Best of luck to ya". 
P.S. keep your wife included in the decision as much as possible no matter what anybody says. It'll make the decision easier for both of you. Who knows, might just keep your tail out of the dog house (as much).


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## JCamp (Nov 22, 2016)

By no means would I tear it down. Have you seen lumber prices? The way they are you might not be able to build a 8×8. My suggestion would be to take the old wiring and bathroom out, get a skid steer in it and dig 6inch of gravel out, bring in a sprayer and soak it down with bleach and holy water, rerun wire and plumbing and have heavy plastic laid down then concrete poured over. By my math it'll be around 20 yards of new concrete and a few thousand in extras but it'll be a wonderful shop after that. If rats chew through the concrete you need to change countries but my guess is a couple good mouse cats will take care of them. My garage had really bad mice when I first of it and I put my two cats in there for about a week and I haven't had one since.


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## Alphacat (Apr 29, 2021)

Hmmm. Well, the consensus seems to be to concrete the entire barn.

In that case, I might wait on framing out a shop.

Instead,

-concrete (and all that entails)
-rat guard 
-replace front with new door, garage door, new panels
-clean and paint rest
-new bathroom 
-new windows (all are broken)
-new electrical, lighting

The main reason I was framing out a shop was to save on concrete… if im not avoiding that cost, then I can just set up my tools in the front and save money there (trying not to break the bank).

I do not need it to be fancy, i just need it to not be gross. Just the relatively short list there will cost a pretty penny.

I have to think on the cats… i'd prefer a cat door for them, but don't want vermin, raccoons, or skunk. My daughter would love to take on letting them out and feeding them, so it's possible without a door, i just don't know how we'd handle going camping or whatever. A cat door would solve that… but even so, food in the barn might attract pests.


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## PCDub (Sep 24, 2017)

There are pet doors that only open when the pet wearing a device comes through, but remains shut for any other critters. Your cats would have to tolerate wearing a color with the little device on it though.

Get quotes on partial vs total concrete before you decide!


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## Albert (Jul 28, 2008)

I suggest that you rip it out and replace it with a bigger model built from solid lumber. Sounds like you hate it already and you've barely started working on it. Pacific Northwest requires good waterproofing and drainage, 
In 5 years you'll forget the expense and enjoy the shop.


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## Alphacat (Apr 29, 2021)

Update…

I've still been working on cleaning up the area as best I can. While I've bleached before, I noticed one back corner smelled worse than anywhere else so essentially used an entire bottle of bleach (cut with water) and soaked the area.

We had a contractor out. He thought the building was definitely worth keeping, though agreed the (separate) barn was rotted out and not worth saving. That said, he is booked out and said he'd give us a bid in two or three weeks. (Concrete, replace busted up slider with garage door, plumbing, bathroom, some other fixes, some basic electric we could finish, etc).

Regarding the concrete, I think he wants to put metal plates on the wood going around the base, pack the existing gravel (it is all loose and extremely dug up in some areas), add vapor barrier, and lay concrete. He didn't seem to think we need to remove existing gravel, though I know many here suggested it which concerns me (regarding the contractor).

We'll see how that goes…. just concrete might cost us 12k, which hurts to even think about. That's why I've been continuing my attack on the odor (which has definitely improved since I started)... if I can beat the odor, without concrete, I could save a fortune and maybe build a temporary raised floor for the shop area (I was thinking of using used plastic pallets to create a large rectangle, then using some vinyl flooring (lvp) I have left over from a different project to make a nice walking/work surface. Of course, this all comes down to how high the bid is…. I'd much rather have concrete I'm just wincing at putting 15-30 into the building. Used plastic pallets are pretty cheap…. rewire the electric myself, and just have the plumbing fixed….


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## PCDub (Sep 24, 2017)

(Animals will build nests & toilets below the pallets… DAMHIK…)


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## gdaveg (Aug 1, 2020)

If you decide to pour the concrete floor the sub grade below it needs to be reconstructed. you indicated tunneling under the small slab for the bathroom. sure it extends to all areas beyond.

might remove the top 12 inches of soil put it back in 4" or 6" lifts and recompact, 3 to 4 inches of compacted angular rock (reject screenings) over the recompacted subgrade. then pour concrete slab, rebar in it would be a help.

the whole job will cost more than you expect. an addition I hoped for $50K turned out to be $72K. do love it though.

could add some pictures.


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