# Sharpening: Looking close with a USB microscope.



## mafe (Dec 10, 2009)

*USB Microscope the first test pictures*

*Looking close at sharpening*
USB Microscope the first test pictures

Before I even start I have wonderful news to share with my friends and others here:
I finally got my pension case settled this gives me a huge smile on my lips since it has been a fight since 2007 that seemed to never get an end, but now finally did. This combined with other factors in my life that smile to me in these days are making me a very happy man, and this is why I'm a little off LJ.
As soon as I am back to 'normal', I'll start my second part of Japanese tools blog, that will be full of stuff for those interested in that, and also get back to the microscope and start taking pictures of different sharpening methods, grinds and so with my new microscope.

*The microscope:*
◦Image sensor: 2.0 Mega Pixels.
◦Still capture resolution: 1600×1200.
◦Magnification Ratio: 20x to 800x.
◦Photo format: JPEG or BMP.
◦Light source: 8 LED (adjustable by control wheel).
◦PC interface: USB2.0.
◦Size: 11cm x 3.2cm x 3.2cm - 4.33inch x 1.26inch x 1.26inch.

Here the seller:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/270842132705?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649









Here the setup, especially good espresso is important…
As you can see it just hooks up by the USB, and the software is really simple.









Build in light.
Magnify 20 / 800 times by the zoom wheel.


__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content









Here just hairs.









Ok, to give an idea, this is a beard hair just where it is cut.









Since I always tell when I smile, this is my lip at a 800 x zoom.









Here a 20x zoom of a knife blade.









Here a 800x zoom of a knife blade.









Bahco chisel front 800x.









Bahco chisel back 800x.









Japanese chisel front 800x.









Japanese chisel back 800x.









Vintage Japanese chisel front 800x.









Vintage Japanese chisel back 800x.









Iles chisel front 800x.









Iles chisel back 800x.

I will make no conclusions to this today, since I do not remember the different sharpening methods used on the views, so today it is just a fast look, and quite fun to see the difference in the surfaces and the steel that looks completely smooth is a landscape when we zoom.









These days have been working on a knife for one of my best friends (the knife in front), and my leather just arrived so I am in the phase of leatherwork now, here designing and enjoying life with a good glass of Italian wine.

Hope this blog series will end up being more inspiring than this first blog… smiles,

*Best thoughts,* 
Mads


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## saddletramp (Mar 6, 2011)

mafe said:


> *USB Microscope the first test pictures*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening*
> USB Microscope the first test pictures
> ...


Too cool, Mads. I think that I need one of those. And, a big congrats on the pension case.


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## JJohnston (May 22, 2009)

mafe said:


> *USB Microscope the first test pictures*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening*
> USB Microscope the first test pictures
> ...


Fascinating.

There was an article in National Geographic about 30 years ago, covering a stone-age site found by archaeologists somewhere in Florida; they used a camera like this to take pictures of the flaked flint blades they found, along with shots of a surgical scalpel for comparison. The scalpel looked like the edges in your pictures, but the flint edge was so smooth and perfect it looked the same at any magnification.

I'm surprised these devices are so affordable. I suppose that's the march of technology. Question: I looked at the item in your link, and also ebay US, and they look the same. One picture has the parts labeled, and it has what it calls a "snapshot button" on the side of the device. Do you press this button to take the picture? I wonder how still you can hold it while taking an 800x picture.

And congratulations on resolving your case!


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

mafe said:


> *USB Microscope the first test pictures*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening*
> USB Microscope the first test pictures
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HUGE congratulations on the pension case (I understand exactly what this could mean for you, your life, and your family).

Very cool pictures. This may well be the answer to the eternal question, "How can I get even MORE obsessive over having the perfect edge on my cutting tools ?"

LOL !


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## jjw5858 (Apr 11, 2011)

mafe said:


> *USB Microscope the first test pictures*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening*
> USB Microscope the first test pictures
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Glad things are getting in order Mads, best wishes….and as always….your posts are great. Good stuff and always inspiring, cheers!


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## Brit (Aug 14, 2010)

mafe said:


> *USB Microscope the first test pictures*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening*
> USB Microscope the first test pictures
> ...


Great news about the pension Mads - well deserved. "Other factors that smile to me" you say. Hmmm. Well don't wear yourself out my friend.

This is going to be an interesting blog.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

mafe said:


> *USB Microscope the first test pictures*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening*
> USB Microscope the first test pictures
> ...


glad to hear you're getting back to normal. Now if i could just figure out what normal is .

pictures are cool. Thanks for sharing them. I'll be waiting for the different sharpening pic's.


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## reggiek (Jun 12, 2009)

mafe said:


> *USB Microscope the first test pictures*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening*
> USB Microscope the first test pictures
> ...


Glad tidings indeed. At such an appropriate time of year (for non christians too). The wheels of justice sure do turn slowly…perhaps too slowly sometimes.

Now you can seriously tell someone that you know how sharp your tools really are and have the proof to show them. It amazes me the different worlds that are revealed by microscopes. Does the wine and capuchino enhance the view (or just the viewer?)...

Thanks for sharing the great news….we need alot of good news in this cold season so we can generate a bit of heat (except for our lucky LJ's down under)....lucky devils….we expect you folks down there to start turning out those summer projects now.


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## Jim Jakosh (Nov 24, 2009)

mafe said:


> *USB Microscope the first test pictures*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening*
> USB Microscope the first test pictures
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hey Mads, great to hear you got your pension case settled. Now you can get that off your mind and relax a bit in the shop with your wonderful ideas coming to light.
That magifications is something else! The edge that you think is sharp can really look ragged under that magnification. It is a good to know which sharpening method gives the best results, though.
Thanks for sharing and good luck to you, my friend …...............Jim


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## Dennisgrosen (Nov 14, 2009)

mafe said:


> *USB Microscope the first test pictures*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening*
> USB Microscope the first test pictures
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*YYYUUUBIIIIIIIIIII !!!!!!!! Mads )))))))))) 
A BIG CONGRAT´S SMILE FROM HERE TO YOU *
you deffently deserved it *CHEERS*

you normal …............will never happen ….... I hope …. we like you as you are …. ha ha ha

congrat´s with your new toy …. good to see it arived 
and I can see its not only the capuchino you have found you also celebrate with bowl of candy 

looking forward to see what you come up with

take care
Dennis


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## againstthegrain (Feb 16, 2008)

mafe said:


> *USB Microscope the first test pictures*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening*
> USB Microscope the first test pictures
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Mads,

Awesome and excellent news!! Congrats big time! I am thrilled for you and celebrate with you!!!!


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## SamuelP (Feb 26, 2011)

mafe said:


> *USB Microscope the first test pictures*
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> *Looking close at sharpening*
> USB Microscope the first test pictures
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Congrats!


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## Sodabowski (Aug 23, 2010)

mafe said:


> *USB Microscope the first test pictures*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening*
> USB Microscope the first test pictures
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That's gonna be very interesting. Let's see how a properly sharpened chisel looks like under 800x magnification


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## racerglen (Oct 15, 2010)

mafe said:


> *USB Microscope the first test pictures*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening*
> USB Microscope the first test pictures
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Madds !
Skoll !
Wonderfull news (hhmm..skoll…schol..ach der lieber..skol !)
great news however you spell it !

;-)


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## RGtools (Feb 18, 2011)

mafe said:


> *USB Microscope the first test pictures*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening*
> USB Microscope the first test pictures
> ...


I am glad that things are on the upswing for you.


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

mafe said:


> *USB Microscope the first test pictures*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening*
> USB Microscope the first test pictures
> ...


Mads, Glad to hear your pension settlement is resolved.

That is a cool microscope, too. With that you will know when you have your edge. You will have fun going through your normal procedures with that and confirming what is best method for each sharpening type.

I can get a good deal on a USB Digital Microscope Endoscope Refurbished Video Camera 20x to 200x w/Driver, but passed on it because I don't know where all it has been, you know ? ;=)


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## Beginningwoodworker (May 5, 2008)

mafe said:


> *USB Microscope the first test pictures*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening*
> USB Microscope the first test pictures
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Thats to cool!


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## Bricofleur (Aug 28, 2009)

mafe said:


> *USB Microscope the first test pictures*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening*
> USB Microscope the first test pictures
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Hi Happy Man! Pension solved==>GREAT!

Now, according to the edge of those tools, you better start to learn sharpening, brother!

Congrats!

Serge

http://atelierdubricoleur.wordpress.com


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## 58j35bonanza (Jan 11, 2011)

mafe said:


> *USB Microscope the first test pictures*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening*
> USB Microscope the first test pictures
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Great to hear the news!


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## nobuckle (Nov 3, 2010)

mafe said:


> *USB Microscope the first test pictures*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening*
> USB Microscope the first test pictures
> ...


Glad to hear that things are going well with you. I know that I don't know you personally but still I'm glad fro you. Cool microscope. With that I suspect that even the sharpest of chisels will appear like a jagged mountain range. Even still, it's pretty cool.


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## HallTree (Feb 1, 2008)

mafe said:


> *USB Microscope the first test pictures*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening*
> USB Microscope the first test pictures
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"a fight since 2007" 
Too bad you had to go that long to get something that is due to you, but now you can mark off another downer in your life and enjoy each day more.

From now on when I sharpen my knife, no matter how sharp I think it is. I will always think of how it really looks.


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## Bearpie (Feb 19, 2010)

mafe said:


> *USB Microscope the first test pictures*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening*
> USB Microscope the first test pictures
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Congratulations and I do hope they include interest on the back payments!


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## twokidsnosleep (Apr 5, 2010)

mafe said:


> *USB Microscope the first test pictures*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening*
> USB Microscope the first test pictures
> ...


Now we see why sanding and scraping are just putting smaller and smaller scratches into something…amazing pic of the blade
In another life I fiddled with an SEM (scanning electron microscope) in University. Bacteria and viruses get creepy at those levels of magnification.
Like the last photo of candles,wine, art equipment, knife and drawings…romantic fool


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## lanwater (May 14, 2010)

mafe said:


> *USB Microscope the first test pictures*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening*
> USB Microscope the first test pictures
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Nice to hear the good news.

Enjoy your new toy.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

mafe said:


> *USB Microscope the first test pictures*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening*
> USB Microscope the first test pictures
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I'm really interested in the difference stropping makes.


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## patron (Apr 2, 2009)

mafe said:


> *USB Microscope the first test pictures*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening*
> USB Microscope the first test pictures
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Inspector Clouseau 
on the trail again
in denmark

great gizmo

and wonderful news
with the settlement

merry christmas !


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## Kentuk55 (Sep 21, 2010)

mafe said:


> *USB Microscope the first test pictures*
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> *Looking close at sharpening*
> USB Microscope the first test pictures
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absolutely nice, and the wine looks good too


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## mafe (Dec 10, 2009)

mafe said:


> *USB Microscope the first test pictures*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening*
> USB Microscope the first test pictures
> ...


Hi all!
Thank you so much for the wonderful congrats, yes these days I am in the sky of happiness, so released, so much bad energy that are leaving me and giving room for kindness and life.

Roger, it was a wonderful wine also.

David, merry Christmas to you also. Yes inspector MaFe will look closer into the secrets of the edge. An edge is also what you always have my dear David, and this combined with your deep soul and warm heart makes me so proud to call you my friend.

Don, this was the main reason why I bought it! So we are the same, and this will be the first I will look into. What happens after honing when we use different compounds to hone. - I really look forward to this little investigation.

Ian, thank you, I am a big curios child, so I am sure it will be great fun.

twokidsnosleep, yes romantic fool that is I no doubt. Are you telling me I should put the microscope in my throat next time I am sick? Laugh. I was also thinking of landscapes when I saw the first pictures here, and quite amazing it is.

Bearpie, thank you, I am afraid not, but a lawyer will look into this also soon, so who knows 'it might rain frogs' as the French says.

HallTree, yes 2007, it is stupid, but true. Now just a part of the past and I will think of it as the path that brought to me happiness. I think also these images will change the way I look at the edge in the future.

nobuckle, no better quality than to be able to be happy for the others, so I am so happy to read that. I am looking forward also to see if all the different sharpening methods will disappoint the eye or if some will also give a razor image. But we have to remember that it is not the cutting quality, just the flatness and so sharpness of the edge, other qualities are hardening and steel types, this will not be covered with the microscope. So I am thinking I will also try and compare the feeling of the edge and how it actually cuts.

58j35bonanza, that was kind of you, thank you so.

Bricofleur, Another factor is of course my ability to sharpen, but I think that this part is solved by now, so the real problem often is laziness more than ability… Yes I am really happy now.

CJIII, more will come, thank you.

David Grimes, yes it will be good fun to play a little with this and know how close the feeling and the reality is, I have used, sandpaper, oil and water stones and water grinder with leather wheel, so these types I will compare at some point. Of course this will be just for fun and I will not do it each time I sharpen, but it will make me stop thinking about all the different opinions I hear all over the web, it will be my own little lap of truth that can make me settle with the sharpening method or methods I choose once done. After this I can use it with my daughter to look at beetles and flowers or whatever we want to look at that close.

RGtools, as you know my friend I am not so easy to hold down, I have a big life energy inside, but honestly after ten years of pain and going downhill losing all I had, this is for me a wonderful opening to a bright future where peace and love will be the key words.

racerglen, SKÅL in Danish, thank you, and SKÅL to you.

Sodabowski, this must be a toy just for you also! I look so much forward to see the best edge I can make with a 10.000 grid water stone, and compare to other types of sharpening. Could be fun to have you around.

sprevratil, thank you for your thought, I smile.

againstthegrain, then cheers to you also, thank you for sharing my happiness I do this with the greatest joy.

Dennis, you are absolutely right I will never be normal! That's a promise that I am even proud to give to you.
I think I will make a holder for the blades also since 800x is quite a lot so things need to be still.
Hmmmmm yes a wonderful coffee, this one is a latte and candy, you know I am a child still. 
Tak min ven det var sødt af dig, den pension er en tung sten der faldt fra hjertet.

Jim, my dear Jim, yes what a release, I think it was also your saint that helped me a little, I have smiled at him and feel his warmth. Perhaps there are no hopeless causes, perhaps only hopeless views, whatever it is, then I am happy to see life is throwing its beautiful light on me these days so I live and breathe without worries for the past or the future, just enjoying the moment.

reggiek, to be honest it is one of the reasons I bought it, I was tired of hearing people's ideas of what was sharp, not because I don't like to hear people's ideas but because they seemed all to know what was better and had absolutely no way to back this up… A little like when people say the one or the other iron type is better and they have not tried both. I am relatively new in woodworking but as an architect I am used to talk facts in stuff like this, and then we can talk after about what we love, like and what makes us happy. 
The wheels of justice, yes they don't produce heat in the speed they move, but the judgment this time finally did. (btw I am freezing on my toes this moment, but we are still just over 0degree Celsius).

Don W, let's hope it never does, thank you Don.

Brit, yes I try to stay on the line… Life is sweet so sweet, sometimes we meet an angel, all we can do is hope it will stay and not fly away on those beautiful wings. Will you have time this week for a beer or a visit here even?

jjw5858, thank you, even this post actually is a little messy since I had so much to share that the message became a little blurry, but I think that all of you that know me can bare with me and at least I can see you are happy to share my joy. I think also it will be fun.

NBeener, ohhh yes I know that you of all can follow me in my struggle, but then also in the joy. I like to say that without a mountain there are no valley with a deep lake, so to fully understand the difference we have to have been both places, even at the bottom of the lake. For the edge, yes I think it can't get more scrupulous than this… but after I will be in peace and - or perhaps even more confused… Augghhh I did not think of that, laugh. All the best.

JJohnston, yes it have a snapshot function but I used the computer for that I think also it is not possible to hold it still at more than 20x but here it worked fine, the light can also be turned on and off so one can use different lights, cool and at a price that I also thought was not possible. Perhaps I can take a picture of a flint stone one day also, funny idea. The case - I smile here.

saddletramp, yes it is a great toy for that price, and some of us still have the geno of the child, this curiosity that loves to get even closer, even more precise even more sure. Thank you for the pension thought.

All of you! Thank you so much, you fill me up with even more joy at a moment where I feel like I can't almost take no more.
The very best of my thoughts,
Mads


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## Tootles (Jul 21, 2011)

mafe said:


> *USB Microscope the first test pictures*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening*
> USB Microscope the first test pictures
> ...


Hooray! I can understand what it means to have your pension resolved. The continuous paperwork and sense that no-one quite understands or believes what you are experiencing are the among worst aspects of such cases. I know you had little choice, but congratulations on sticking it out for so long.

I've been thinking for a while that my boys will enjoy a microscope such as that at some stage, the only question is what age is most appropriate? But now I see that it is an essential workshop tool as well! Oh, the things I learn on LJs.


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## mochoa (Oct 9, 2009)

mafe said:


> *USB Microscope the first test pictures*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening*
> USB Microscope the first test pictures
> ...


Congrats Mads, this means more money for tools!

Now with your new microscope you will become the Mads Scientist!


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## Dennisgrosen (Nov 14, 2009)

mafe said:


> *USB Microscope the first test pictures*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening*
> USB Microscope the first test pictures
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we have professor Martyn 
and now we have proffessor nutcase …. ))))
don´t let the picture of your brain slip out Mads or Martyn just make it into a square normal box
and we don´t want that …. 

take care
Dennis


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## DaddyZ (Jan 28, 2010)

mafe said:


> *USB Microscope the first test pictures*
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> *Looking close at sharpening*
> USB Microscope the first test pictures
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Congrats on the case !! Mads Mafe at it again !!!!


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## KayBee (Jul 6, 2009)

mafe said:


> *USB Microscope the first test pictures*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening*
> USB Microscope the first test pictures
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Great to hear that the pension issues are all settled!! That takes a load of worry off of you.

Congrats on the new tool. It looks like lots of fun, finding different ways of looking at familiar things. Nice 'still life with wine' at the end too. Enjoy it all.


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## grizzman (May 10, 2009)

mafe said:


> *USB Microscope the first test pictures*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening*
> USB Microscope the first test pictures
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well i guess im a little behind here, i didnt know you won your pension, oh that is so wonderful for you, now you can relax i hope and go forward enjoying your life…i love the microscope…very cool…i took the one of your lip and gave it a big kiss…yes i can be sick also…LOL… no i didnt do the kiss, but i did enjoy the close up of the blades, you for sure will know what is sharp and what isnt, and where the nicks are…again congrats…now i have another reason to eat a steak…..


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## pickpapa (Feb 12, 2011)

mafe said:


> *USB Microscope the first test pictures*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening*
> USB Microscope the first test pictures
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Congratulations Mads!! You appear quite content with your pipe in hand on the new profile pic. I look forward to seeing close up shots of an edge before and after. Enjoy your new beginning after a hard fought battle.

pickpapa


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

mafe said:


> *USB Microscope the first test pictures*
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> *Looking close at sharpening*
> USB Microscope the first test pictures
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Congrats mads
super photo's thanks for sharing.


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## phtaylor36 (Jun 13, 2011)

mafe said:


> *USB Microscope the first test pictures*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening*
> USB Microscope the first test pictures
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Mads,

Congratulations on your pension! That USB microscope is amazing. Can't wait for the post on the best sharpening methods.

Best,

Philip


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## Billp (Nov 25, 2006)

mafe said:


> *USB Microscope the first test pictures*
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> *Looking close at sharpening*
> USB Microscope the first test pictures
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Mads so glad you got your settlement, Iam sure it will provide you much needed peace of mind. Can't wait to see where your adventure leads you. You can take one of your very sharp tools to a piece of wood an start to identify at the cellular level.


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## PaBull (May 13, 2008)

mafe said:


> *USB Microscope the first test pictures*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening*
> USB Microscope the first test pictures
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I love your posts, Mads, I eat them up like a bar of chocolate (the better kind). I drink them like a good Italian wine by candle light.

And like I have told you before, I am so happy that so many things are falling in place in your life, pension, love life,............ what else does a man need?

Your friend Pabull.


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## mafe (Dec 10, 2009)

*_Water stone, compound and newspaper_*

*Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
Water stone, compound and newspaper

Ok I found some time and had a good time in the shop playing with the new 'toy':









Before I could get started I needed to make a holder for the microscope so my day started by playing around with aluminum profiles.









Screws, wood and some epoxy.









A holder and ramp that I could click the chisels on to fast and adjust the angle to get a fair shot with the microscope.









After an hour I was ready to go.

*The first test here will be the Japanese water stones, if you want to read more on what stones I use and how you can go to this blog.*

*We will start by flattening the back of the chisel and see the 800x magnification pictures of the surface and edge.*









After flattening on a 320 grit water stone.









1000 grit water stone, the edge looks like a landscape.









3000 grit water stone.









8000 grit water stone, notice how much finer the edge becomes.









I make some slurry with a slurry stone on the 8000 stone and give it some more passes, it seems the surface gets a little more mirror finish, but also that the fine edge gets rounded.

*And now for the sharpening:*









For the water stones I used the usual setup.
The Eclipse, my pond and stones.
Here setting the angle with the guide.









Color the tip to see that I get the angle right..









And a close look at the sharpening.









Here the surface of the steel after a 320 stone.









1000 stone notice how the edge gets less rough as we go.









3000 stone.









8000 stone that leaves a mirror finish for the eye.
The lines gets closer and closer here at the microscope and what is interesting is to see how fine these Japanese stones are, the grit is really fine and the tracks of same size.









Here I try to focus more on the edge, this razor sharp edge is at 800 times magnification still bumpy.









And here it comes, the test on newspaper!









Front and back.









After the 8000 grit water stone I ran it down a newspaper page 10 strokes on both the back and the front.
I could not feel any difference of the sharpness, but the picture shows a difference in structure.
My judgment is that running down the newspaper is not giving a better edge. I might even get to the conclusion that it makes it a little less sharp, but if I went from a 6000 grit stone I think it might do the trick.









And finally I tried out with the green VERITAS compound after the 8000 stone.









Again front and back 10 strokes.









The result seems to make the surface less consistent, but smoother, but as the photo shows it rounds the edge a little bit and so it will be faster dull, so I would not use this for sharpening, but after using the chisel for a while for a fast and easy touch up of the edge .

The blog will go on, next time will be the water grinder (Tormek) system, and I plan on oil stones and sandpaper also.

My blogs on sharpening:
http://lumberjocks.com/mafe/blog/series/4076
Sharpening station blogs:
http://lumberjocks.com/mafe/blog/series/3071

Hope this blog can make some more curious, and stop some of the guessing around,

*Best thoughts,* 
Mads


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## jjw5858 (Apr 11, 2011)

mafe said:


> *_Water stone, compound and newspaper_*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water stone, compound and newspaper
> ...


Aweseome post Mads…...haaaaaa…. your back at it in your artisan laboratory testing and finding these things. I will say, I often think as I am up to a new project…"I wonder what Mads will have for us next time!?" Always enjoy your work and blogs, a positive inspiration. Be well my friend.

Joe


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## Schwieb (Dec 3, 2008)

mafe said:


> *_Water stone, compound and newspaper_*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water stone, compound and newspaper
> ...


Very nice blog, Mads. I love the microscope. If you showed it before, I completely missed it but I have never seen a device like that. It is interesting to actually see the contour of the edge produced by different grits of stones. I know water stones are legendary but it would be interesting to compare these results to the diamond sharpening "stones". I really appreciate how much effort you put into preparing, photographing, and posting your blogs.


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

mafe said:


> *_Water stone, compound and newspaper_*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water stone, compound and newspaper
> ...


Great microscope and better blog. After looking at it in this fashion, I have to agree. Will use this method as a "touch up."


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

mafe said:


> *_Water stone, compound and newspaper_*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water stone, compound and newspaper
> ...


that microscope sure looks like its fun.


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## racerglen (Oct 15, 2010)

mafe said:


> *_Water stone, compound and newspaper_*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water stone, compound and newspaper
> ...


Another excelent post, you're doing the LJ world a favour with the 
"mad" scierntist route Mads.
;-)


----------



## Kentuk55 (Sep 21, 2010)

mafe said:


> *_Water stone, compound and newspaper_*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water stone, compound and newspaper
> ...


gr8 info. thnx for the blog


----------



## Brit (Aug 14, 2010)

mafe said:


> *_Water stone, compound and newspaper_*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water stone, compound and newspaper
> ...


Look out, professor Mads is at it again. Great blog my friend. I might have to invest in one of those microscopes when I come to sharpen my saws.


----------



## Sodabowski (Aug 23, 2010)

mafe said:


> *_Water stone, compound and newspaper_*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water stone, compound and newspaper
> ...


Well, the scientist in me wants to scream out that with such a surface pattern you don't need a microscope and could do with a laser, by capturing the diffracted beam and applying it a reverse Fourier transform, while maintaining the ability to get everything in focus and filtering the image at the same time with a far smaller expense ($4 for a laser pointer, and put the camera in the way of the refracted beam, then some computing to extract the data).

Or you could use a high power IR laser diode to recut the surfaces, leaving them absolutely poyfekt and shawp.

Or take some nice shop time to grind them on stones with water and elbow grease, hehehe 
Looking forward to the following of this series!

Best thoughts my friend


----------



## nobuckle (Nov 3, 2010)

mafe said:


> *_Water stone, compound and newspaper_*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water stone, compound and newspaper
> ...


Cool! Thanks for posting this information. It will come in very handy when I get my sharpening station set up.


----------



## stefang (Apr 9, 2009)

mafe said:


> *_Water stone, compound and newspaper_*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water stone, compound and newspaper
> ...


An interesting blog Mads. That microscope is really amazing and the pictures are very revealing. I could use that microscope. it would be perfect to check my bank balance now after Christmas! Seriously though this is ideal to check edge tools with and well worth the price for a perfectionist like yourself. It was smart making that nice stand to get good quality pictures too. I am looking forward to seeing what other ways you might find to use it. I'm sure your daughter could probably get some good use out of too for her school work.


----------



## RGtools (Feb 18, 2011)

mafe said:


> *_Water stone, compound and newspaper_*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water stone, compound and newspaper
> ...


I am so glad you did this. I have been looking forward to the results from you lab for quite some time.

Mad Scientist.

I could not resist.


----------



## ajosephg (Aug 25, 2008)

mafe said:


> *_Water stone, compound and newspaper_*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water stone, compound and newspaper
> ...


Interesting and good job on the microscope mount.

BTW, Mads, it's *GRIT *not *GRID*.


----------



## Beginningwoodworker (May 5, 2008)

mafe said:


> *_Water stone, compound and newspaper_*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water stone, compound and newspaper
> ...


Looks good, Mad.


----------



## stefang (Apr 9, 2009)

mafe said:


> *_Water stone, compound and newspaper_*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water stone, compound and newspaper
> ...


An interesting blog Mads. That microscope is really amazing and the pictures are very revealing. I could use that microscope. it would be perfect to check my bank balance now after Christmas! Seriously though this is ideal to check edge tools with and well worth the price for a perfectionist like yourself. It was smart making that nice stand to get good quality pictures too. I am looking forward to seeing what other ways you might find to use it. I'm sure your daughter could probably get some good use out of too for her school work.


----------



## bko (Feb 20, 2010)

mafe said:


> *_Water stone, compound and newspaper_*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water stone, compound and newspaper
> ...


Very interesting! The microscope seems to bring some insight and some new questions.

In my own work, a 10X loupe magnifier and a low angle light were instrumental in making me a better sharpener. If the edge can reflect light, it is not sharp.

I used to use mostly ceramic stones but now use sandpaper on glass (scary sharp), mostly because it is faster to go from dull to perfect with fewer strokes on many grits (600 up to 4000 grit), not because the sharpness really differed all that much.

Through the years, I have tried Arkansas stones, water stones, ceramic stones, diamond stones, and while they all work, I have settled on sandpaper on glass. I have some diamond stones for carbide and some ceramic stones for knives but everything else gets scary sharp on glass.

I think stropping on paper or leather etc. does blunt the edge slightly but smooths off the jagged little metal bits that would make the cut in wood rough and burnishes the metal smooth. This seems like a good trade-off for carving tools where your tool needs to leave a finished surface that is burnished by a smooth tool.

Keep up the good work!

-Brian


----------



## KentS (May 27, 2009)

mafe said:


> *_Water stone, compound and newspaper_*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water stone, compound and newspaper
> ...


Great blog. I found it fasinating

Thanks for sharing


----------



## Toninho (Aug 29, 2010)

mafe said:


> *_Water stone, compound and newspaper_*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water stone, compound and newspaper
> ...


In life we always learn from the wisdom with Great Men!
You're a Big Man Mads!
Thanks for sharing another wonderful project! Congratulations to all LJ!


----------



## mook (Apr 16, 2011)

mafe said:


> *_Water stone, compound and newspaper_*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water stone, compound and newspaper
> ...


Hi Mads,
Could you carry out one more test? 
Sharpen up a plane blade on your finest stone (8000?) , record the resultant edge, then take a couple of shavings on a wood like Cherry, then let us see the edge.
Thanks for sharing.


----------



## Timbo (Aug 21, 2008)

mafe said:


> *_Water stone, compound and newspaper_*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water stone, compound and newspaper
> ...


Interesting, I have heard the leather strop may have a tendency to round over the edge and have been thinking of switching to a mdf strop. Second vote for the pictures after a couple of pairings.

Thanks for doing this!


----------



## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

mafe said:


> *_Water stone, compound and newspaper_*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water stone, compound and newspaper
> ...


Amazing post !!

Not only are the words and pictures interesting, but you give every reader enough information to make his/her own choice about what grits to use in sharpening.

Really great. Thanks, *Mads* !

Eventually, I'd like to see a USB microscope post called "Insects I have Found In my Atelier !" ;-)


----------



## Jim Jakosh (Nov 24, 2009)

mafe said:


> *_Water stone, compound and newspaper_*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water stone, compound and newspaper
> ...


From architect to woodworker to scientist….......you are amazing, my friend!
That sure shows the results of good dharpening methods. I'd hate to see what I produce with my methods!
..............Jim


----------



## jmos (Nov 30, 2011)

mafe said:


> *_Water stone, compound and newspaper_*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water stone, compound and newspaper
> ...


That was terrific. Thanks for posting!


----------



## lanwater (May 14, 2010)

mafe said:


> *_Water stone, compound and newspaper_*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water stone, compound and newspaper
> ...


Mafe my friend,

Here I am still trying 400 grit and you raised the bar to 8000 grit with a microscope on the top… 

Great blog!


----------



## Woodfix (May 14, 2009)

mafe said:


> *_Water stone, compound and newspaper_*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water stone, compound and newspaper
> ...


Great blog Mads
Love the photography. Not sure about the conclusion about the green compound on a leather strop though. I find it adds a last touch to the edge. The evidence being the lack of hairs the back of my arm.

Keep up the good work.

Doug


----------



## Manitario (Jul 4, 2010)

mafe said:


> *_Water stone, compound and newspaper_*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water stone, compound and newspaper
> ...


Really interesting post Mads, especially to see the difference b/t 1000 and 8000. I recently bought an 8000 grit stone and subjectively my edges seem sharper; good to see that there is microscopic evidence for it!


----------



## mafe (Dec 10, 2009)

mafe said:


> *_Water stone, compound and newspaper_*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water stone, compound and newspaper
> ...


Hi guys,
Thank you all for the kind words (as I take the word mad as a compliment).
It is great fun to play with this, and I will try to find a way when I finsh my experiments to put the pictures in a way so they are easy to compare. 
Phillip, I am with you and this is part of the plan, I already took some photos after a touch up and this shows results.
Doug, After I end at 8000 I don't feel that the strop makes a difference, but it could be after a 6000 stone, but we are in feelings also I think. But if you cut bread with a straight blade knife it is less easy than with a bread knife, perhaps this is the case for hairs, that the little change in the blade edge makes it more easy…
Sodabowski, compared to you I am a stoneage man! Is Paris really on this planet?
More will come soon, and I am so happy for the suggestions.
Best thoughts,
Mads


----------



## davidmicraig (Nov 21, 2009)

mafe said:


> *_Water stone, compound and newspaper_*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water stone, compound and newspaper
> ...


Awesome blog Mads. You inspired me to get one of these scopes and take a close look at my own sharpening technigue. Based on what I see under intense magnification, I think I need alot of work


----------



## daltxguy (Sep 7, 2007)

mafe said:


> *_Water stone, compound and newspaper_*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water stone, compound and newspaper
> ...


Great post Mads. I think this means that I have the right set of stones now but it looks like I won't bother with the strop after #8000. We'll see if this makes me a better sharpener. I appreciate the effort and the pics.

Now if someone could tell me how to properly sharpen a drawknife to this level!


----------



## whydee (Jan 18, 2009)

mafe said:


> *_Water stone, compound and newspaper_*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water stone, compound and newspaper
> ...


Excellent blog, VERY useful information, Mad.


----------



## MoshupTrail (Aug 11, 2011)

mafe said:


> *_Water stone, compound and newspaper_*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water stone, compound and newspaper
> ...


That is REALLY interesting. Thanks.


----------



## mafe (Dec 10, 2009)

mafe said:


> *_Water stone, compound and newspaper_*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water stone, compound and newspaper
> ...


Hi guys,
David, I laughed when I saw the picture, and yes it looks almost like a close up from sharpening.
Steve, I do like you, no strop after 8000, but use the strop to touch up the edge.
Yuri, smiles here.
Moshup, thanks.
Best thoughts,
Mads


----------



## rance (Sep 30, 2009)

mafe said:


> *_Water stone, compound and newspaper_*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water stone, compound and newspaper
> ...


Ok, you know I'm a power tool guy but I can understand most of this. However, what's with the newspaper? Is it yet another intermediate grit of stone or strop? Please explain or point me to an explanation. Thanks.


----------



## racerglen (Oct 15, 2010)

mafe said:


> *_Water stone, compound and newspaper_*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water stone, compound and newspaper
> ...


Actual newsprint has a degree of abrasiveness..
(remember th'ol outhouse ?
;-)


----------



## mafe (Dec 10, 2009)

*Water cooled grind stone (tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge*

*Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
Water cooled grind stone (Tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge

So here we go again; I have a water cooled grinder and must admit I was happy with this method until I tried the Japanese water stones, the water cooled grind stone system produce a really sharp edge that are sufficient and nothing less for wood working, but compared to the Japanese water stones I feel there are quite a way to go, and so it is time to look closer at the edges.

Also I will end this blog by showing the result of touch-up on newspaper and on a strop with VERITAS green compound.









First the back is flattened by using the side of the grind stone this gives a fairly flat back but leaves quite a rough surface.









Then the back gets a tour on the leather wheel and I try to polish it up as much as possible.









This is how it looks, not what we will accept after water stones, but though the grind marks flat and shiny.









This is the result in the microscope, quite fair I think.









Then it's time to set up the grinder for the right angle.









Before grinding I use the wheel dresser to set it rough to begin with.
(Using the rough side of the dressing stone).
This makes it faster to make the first grinding.









And grind away until I have the right angle and meet the back flat.!









This is how it looks after the rough grind.









Then I use the wheel dresser to set it to fine.
(Using the fine side of the dressing stone).
This makes finer surface and so a sharper edge.









And a spin until it is smooth.









This is how it looks after the fine grind.
I'm not really impressed with the difference.









And finally the leather wheel to polish up a fine surface and a sharp edge.
(You need to make a turn to remove the burr).









In the microscope after the leather wheel.
I'm not deeply impressed… But it does produce a really fine edge for wood working.

NOW IT GETS INTERESTING!
I will try to improve the edge after the water grinder system by using green compound on a strap and newspaper flat on a glass plate.









Here after the VERITAS green compound.
This clearly improves the result, so that is a way to go.









And then I continue to newspaper so it is touched up by both.
I think it actually gives a little extra on the polish, so the only question is if it rounds the edge a wee bit, and if it is worth the effort, but perhaps for some really fine paring tasks I could say it was worth it.









Finally I make the test where I sharpen with the water grinder system and make the final touch-up on an 8000 grid water stone.
This gives clearly a superb result, and I start to wonder if all my other water stones are actually waste of money!
Perhaps the most effective way to sharpen to razor sharp in the work shop is by starting with the water grinder, then leather wheel and finish up the micro bevel on an 8000 stone, it sure makes me re-think my previous conclusions.

*A QUICK TOUCH-UP.*









Here the edge of a chisel after some light use in pine.









Ten passes on a newspaper and it looks like this.









And like this after few strokes on green compound.

I am not sure what to conclude, the newspaper seems to be a little finer, but will probably also hone less, where the green seem to be more rough and so will also sharpen a little more…

Personally I think I will stay on the green for touch-up by the bench, and then use the newspaper when in the field where I have no strop.

The blog will go on, I plan on oil stones and sandpaper also.

My blogs on sharpening:
http://lumberjocks.com/mafe/blog/series/4076
Sharpening station blogs:
http://lumberjocks.com/mafe/blog/series/3071

Hope this blog can make some more curious, and stop some of the guessing around,

*Best thoughts,* 
Mads


----------



## Kentuk55 (Sep 21, 2010)

mafe said:


> *Water cooled grind stone (tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water cooled grind stone (Tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge
> ...


very informative blog Mads. I'm followin along..thnx


----------



## nobuckle (Nov 3, 2010)

mafe said:


> *Water cooled grind stone (tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water cooled grind stone (Tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge
> ...


Again, thanks for putting all the effort into helping us understand a bit more about keeping our hand tools at peak performance.

BTW, is that a Bahco chisel you are using? If so where did you get them and are they still available?


----------



## RGtools (Feb 18, 2011)

mafe said:


> *Water cooled grind stone (tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water cooled grind stone (Tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge
> ...


Thank you for this. I found it quite interesting.


----------



## stefang (Apr 9, 2009)

mafe said:


> *Water cooled grind stone (tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water cooled grind stone (Tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge
> ...


This is certainly interesting Mads. Really useful info for those looking to get the best edge possible. I especially like your mixed media approach. This hasn't been done with tests conducted by FWW mag. or others. I think you can call it 'Mad's Hybrid Sharpening System', a whole new approach. Keep up the good work!


----------



## StumpyNubs (Sep 25, 2010)

mafe said:


> *Water cooled grind stone (tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water cooled grind stone (Tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge
> ...


I would like to see you test out different buffing compounds so we can see the difference between the different colors like Black, brown, white and red.

Thanks for posting!

-Jim; aka "Stumpy Nubs" 
(The greatest woodworking show since the invention of wood is now online!)


----------



## docholladay (Jan 9, 2010)

mafe said:


> *Water cooled grind stone (tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water cooled grind stone (Tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge
> ...


Mads,

Try stropping on just a plain flat piece of hardwood if you are concerned about rounding the edge. Simply rub a little (emphasize less is more) of the green compound on a fine grained piece of hardwood such as maple and the pull the chisel across it. It will still round the edge slightly, but less than the leather strop will.

Doc


----------



## JJohnston (May 22, 2009)

mafe said:


> *Water cooled grind stone (tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water cooled grind stone (Tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge
> ...


Stumpy, why don't you use this as a jumping-off point, get one of these microscopes, and show us the results from your Worksharp/MDF rig?

Mads, thanks for doing this. I think you said it perfectly with your last sentence.


----------



## KayBee (Jul 6, 2009)

mafe said:


> *Water cooled grind stone (tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water cooled grind stone (Tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge
> ...


Thanks Mads for doing this, it just keeps getting more interesting each entry. I also like the mixed media, no sponsor results. When magazines or sites that are sponsored or get free samples do reviews, I wonder how objective the results really are.


----------



## ShaneA (Apr 15, 2011)

mafe said:


> *Water cooled grind stone (tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water cooled grind stone (Tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge
> ...


Thanks for the post. Very interesting. Cool pictures too.


----------



## SASmith (Mar 22, 2010)

mafe said:


> *Water cooled grind stone (tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water cooled grind stone (Tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge
> ...


Thanks for the info.
Really enjoying this series.

Scott


----------



## Sodabowski (Aug 23, 2010)

mafe said:


> *Water cooled grind stone (tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water cooled grind stone (Tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge
> ...


I won't do the green compound, the shot after the newspaper honing shows enough evidence to me that you have found the best way to go!


----------



## ratchet (Jan 12, 2008)

mafe said:


> *Water cooled grind stone (tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water cooled grind stone (Tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge
> ...


Big thanks for doing this. All good info. It really brings up other questions to answer, and I think is just a starting point of a body of information.


----------



## Dennisgrosen (Nov 14, 2009)

mafe said:


> *Water cooled grind stone (tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water cooled grind stone (Tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge
> ...


thank´s Mads 

Dennis


----------



## Schwieb (Dec 3, 2008)

mafe said:


> *Water cooled grind stone (tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water cooled grind stone (Tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge
> ...


You're the fanatic Mads. I truly appreciate that you take the time to analyze this and go to all the trouble to post your findings. thanks this is very interesting.


----------



## kiefer (Feb 5, 2011)

mafe said:


> *Water cooled grind stone (tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water cooled grind stone (Tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge
> ...


This is great info and I have to change my way of sharpening I think ,but having always used a oil stone and grinding wheel it's hard to change .
I have used a diamond lap for some time now but mainly on carbide tools . 
Thanks for this and I will be watching for further findings .

Kiefer


----------



## mochoa (Oct 9, 2009)

mafe said:


> *Water cooled grind stone (tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water cooled grind stone (Tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge
> ...


Great info Mads, can't wait to see the rest of your research.

The biggest challenge is that the possibilities for testing different scenarios and combinations is endless.


----------



## Brit (Aug 14, 2010)

mafe said:


> *Water cooled grind stone (tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water cooled grind stone (Tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge
> ...


Very interesting Mads. I wonder how this compares to the old-timers method of sharpening a convex bevel on plane irons and chisels with a dished oilstone. Thanks for taking the time to do this, it's really gives a great insight.


----------



## Jim Jakosh (Nov 24, 2009)

mafe said:


> *Water cooled grind stone (tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water cooled grind stone (Tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge
> ...


That is very interesting. I'll bet when we think we have an edge sharp- like on a find diamond stone- it is quite rough under your scope. Thanks for the information!!!!!!!!...Jim


----------



## CharlesAuguste (Jun 11, 2011)

mafe said:


> *Water cooled grind stone (tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water cooled grind stone (Tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge
> ...


This is all interesting but magnification can be very deceiving as well, im an avid straight razor user and hone 
all my razors, this kind of microscopic photographie been brought up many times in straight razors forums,
and some pictures you look at dont look so good but the outcome is marvelous, for instance if you look at a razor
honed on a charnley forest or Llynn idwall hone you see a scratch patern but you will get the best shave ever,
the same picture from a chinese 12k hone looks like a perfect mirror and the shave is good but not as good has the others.In woodworking i dont see any benefit to go further then 2000 grit or even less, knifes and razors is a different story.


----------



## stefang (Apr 9, 2009)

mafe said:


> *Water cooled grind stone (tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water cooled grind stone (Tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge
> ...


This was a very interesting observation Charles. I never go over 1200 grit (diamond stone) and I feel it is a really good edge. Not perhaps the best obtainable from a microscopic point of view, but good enough to do about any kind of work and do it well. I certainly cannot see any of the old master woodworkers using a lot of time honing their edge tools. That doesn't say that they didn't hone them well.


----------



## mafe (Dec 10, 2009)

mafe said:


> *Water cooled grind stone (tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water cooled grind stone (Tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge
> ...


Hi charles, I agree the pictures say a lot and a lot of nothing too…
But I have found it interesting to acually be able to see what is happening and not just listen to arguments 'that it gets sharper when'.
When it comes to choice of method, I have always said, and will stay on this for now, that there are only one good method: the one that makes you feel the best. 
Some people prefere methods for the edge, some for the zen, some for the time, some for the reason to buy expensive stuff, all have arguments, and all are right in their way.
the microscope simply tell how it looks, how sharp and smooth the edge acually is.

If you want to read more on the subject of grits you can read in this blog:
http://lumberjocks.com/mafe/blog/26468
My comment 23 also holds some links.

Personally I love a razor sharp chisel for paring, and this edge I have best achived with the Japanese waterstones and 8000 gives me this edge that cuts like a knife in butter.

I have tried a lot of different methods and the Japanese stones gives me the edge I look for combined with the joy I have using this.
If you are interested look in my blogs I have been blogging a lot on the subject and plenty of good words has been written in the comments from the LJ's.

Best thoughts,
Mads


----------



## stefang (Apr 9, 2009)

mafe said:


> *Water cooled grind stone (tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water cooled grind stone (Tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge
> ...


Mads, what you are saying is in agreement with so many other woodworkers on LJ and FWW, etc. Maybe I haven't ever experienced the kind of sharpness you are talking about, I mean in actual use now, not in a scientific sense.

It's just that I feel the edge on my chisels couldn't be that much better. I wish we had a test that would show the results of actual cuts or cutting in action for comparison between the different edges made by the various grits.

Is there some way this can be done on LJ?


----------



## Dennisgrosen (Nov 14, 2009)

mafe said:


> *Water cooled grind stone (tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water cooled grind stone (Tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge
> ...


Mike (stefang ) :
the old carpenters in europe did hone there cheisels and planes 
they did it on a natural stone we call Belgisk brok ( belgian stone ) 
its becoming a rare stone now adays ….. the stone has grits between 4500~6000 
but since it is natural you can´t realy tell but if you are lucky you can find them having 
a grit from 4500 on one side and 6000 on the other side of the stone 
the colour on the stone is pretty much something between cremewhite and eggwhite to yellowish

the way you easely can test if you cheisels is sharp enoff is if you paire on pine endgrain 
or better hit the chiesl with a mallet on the endgrain if it goes thrugh the pine and lieve 
a realy smooth surface on the endgrain your cheisel is sharp enoff
but if the endgrain seems to have compressed more or less and lieve a slight gab between some of them
when the cutting is done the cheisel is dull

use pine since its more difficult to make a clean cut in this softer wood than on hard wood 
I think you shuold try both what you do and then a honed cheisel of the same size 
in the same peice of wood I´m pretty sure you will feel the different 
use the honed first … 

take care
Dennis


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## stefang (Apr 9, 2009)

mafe said:


> *Water cooled grind stone (tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water cooled grind stone (Tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge
> ...


Hi Dennis, I know about this test and I have no problem with pine end grain using my chisels the way I normally hone them. I also have arkansas stone that is very fine, almost like glass, but I stopped using it after I got my diamond stone.

Still, I have to admit that I've never experienced an edge honed to 8,000 grit, so I have no personal way to compare. I do know that 8,000 grit sharpness would have to make a big difference, and it would have to last long enough for it to be worth all the extra time it takes to get there. I hope I get the opportunity to try out the difference some time.


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## mafe (Dec 10, 2009)

mafe said:


> *Water cooled grind stone (tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water cooled grind stone (Tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge
> ...


Hi ho guys,
Mike, I think you refer to the same way as our buddy Paul is talking about.
I have the Belgisk brok and can compare this to the Japanese and prefare the Japanese stones.
My personal results on sharpening have made me come to the choice of the Japanese stones and for now I use a guide in the English chisels and plane irons, but my Japanese chisels and plane irons I sharpen freehand and truely enjoy the focus and the result.
How we should compare… I am not sure it will be easy. I guess a cutting edge have to be judged on many aspects.
Sharpnes in cutting. Sharpnes in slice. How well it holds the edge. How long time to sharpen and so on…

I have absolutely no doubt that when I sharpen my chisels and stops at the 8000 Japanese stone the edge is sharper than what i can achive on my Tormek, with my oilstones or the scarry sharp method.
How sharp we need our chisel? It's a personal choice I guess… I know carpenters that worked a life and never had more than a normal old sharpening stone at app. 3000 and were happy. I think for cabinetmaking and carving we will be happy to get more at least 6000, but this is MY personal opinion.

Dennis, nice to see you, hope you are fine and with a smile, I hear you are busy.

Best thoughts,
Mads


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## mafe (Dec 10, 2009)

mafe said:


> *Water cooled grind stone (tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water cooled grind stone (Tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge
> ...


Mike, i will make you a video one day of me sharpening a chisel on Japanese stones and show you it takes no time worth mention.
The Japanese stones need some skills without a guide like all the rest of the ways.
Again I will say, if you are happy with your method, no need to change it.
Smiles my friends.
Best thoughts,
Mads


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## Dennisgrosen (Nov 14, 2009)

mafe said:


> *Water cooled grind stone (tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water cooled grind stone (Tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge
> ...


busy isn´t the word Mads not having a freezer that goes to - 40 degrees celcius below zero
does make me think of the days when I mooved furnitures for foks in the wekends 
to get a little exstra cach 
mooving about two hundred woodentools out and in nd out and in to make the fals spring 
so the bettles/woodworms is killed 
ain´t something my back particular like 

glad I ain´t have to do it with the bench it was bad enoff to use Gori 27 on it 
two more days and I have the it all done for this stage on the restoring of the tools
then I can start from where I left on them hope I get fininshed when the sommer hit us ….....1 year later
than estimated …. LOL

beside the socalled normal slave work there has been some diy projects on the house and barsebeck in the basement = money spendt that I get nothing for beside a warm house for the girls…. LOL

take care 
Dennis


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## stefang (Apr 9, 2009)

mafe said:


> *Water cooled grind stone (tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water cooled grind stone (Tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge
> ...


Thank you *Mads*. Being happy is one thing, but I still don't want to be ignorant. I just want all the facts so that I can satisfy my own curiosity and perhaps learn something, Not to prove a point or justify my own sharpening regime.

I think big claims require big proof, especially in the context of what is an optimal edge. Please be assured that I am not referring to the information you have given us. The microscope doesn't lie. The question I am asking is 'are these super sharp edges the optimal edge for actual use, and how much better are they than a less perfect edge in actual use?

For example, one thing I have never seen (or perhaps remember) is an 'after test'. That is, how long do these super sharp edges actually hold up after being used for 1min., 5 min., and 10 min? To find this out I think we need to go beyond the merely obsessive and into the realm of insanity.

Regardless of the outcome, I will not change my sharpening routine. It is quick and completely satisfies my needs. So I'm *not* placing the burden of after testing on your shoulders Mads. I am merely throwing down the gauntlet of doubt to anyone willing to take up the challenge.

I would do the testing myself, but I don't have anything finer than my 1200 grit diamond stone, although some of my Arkansas stones are probably finer but the grits are not identified, and they are surely not up to 8,000 grit, with the exception of a profile stone that is like glass. I might try them again just for fun though, as I haven't used them since I learned how to hone by hand properly.


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## mafe (Dec 10, 2009)

mafe said:


> *Water cooled grind stone (tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water cooled grind stone (Tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge
> ...


Hi Mike, Fine woodworking Magazine did a really fine test on sharpening where they did this after test also, I'll see if I can find it and give you the conclusion.
I am just like you not so interested in the religion of sharpening, but since I am a curious architect and not a woodworker for a living I was curious of the difference in the methods of sharpening for my own play time.
Mike you are never ignorant - there are no stupid questions - just stupid answers, hope I do not fall into the last group, laugh.
I do not think I claimed but just said what I prefer and that is the water stones, they give me a sharper edge in this I have no doubt I have done this and tried both a lot. But the method of the 3 diamonds and then a final hone with green compound will give a excellent edge that are really close to what I make with the Japanese stones. In fact I was choosing between the two when I invested in the Japanese stones. 
The Japanese stones ending at a 8-10.000 gives a finer edge than the finish on green compound, but nothing to write books about in my opinion. 
If I was a wood worker of trade I would choose the diamonds since this system need no water and cleaning or flattening of stones, but most of all since this system can be brought out the house more easily. The Japanese stones I think are for the work shop and take a dedicated area for sharpening to be optimal.
Personally I was thinking to use the diamonds and then finish on a 8.000 Japanese stone instead of compound when at the workshop, and then bring my strop when leaving the shop, I think that will be a excellent choice.
The best book I know on the subject is: The perfect edge by Ron Hook, this book tells you all you ever need to know and explain in every detail the difference.
To compare methods, we can compare the point of the edge, and how little scratches the methods leave, the rest is feeling.
If it hold the edge is a matter of the steel not the method of sharpening, and some methods of sharpeneing will then be more optimal for different types of steel.
I love to use my old English chisels out the house since they are quite 'soft' and therefore easy to touch up on a strop, where the Japanese chisels hold the edge quite long, but then when the edge 'brakes' it is not to be honed only to be sharpened and so it is not as easy on the go.
Personal I do not think an edge can be too sharp, but we can take a talk about how sharp it 'needs' to be, and this is a matter of use, work methods and taste.
After I learned to make a razor sharp edge I use the chisel as a knife in the wood often, I cut shoulders on a tenon and so the use of the chisel changed a lot for me. Before I did a lot of banging on the chisel, which also worked fine, but did not give me the same crisp work and easy use of the tools.
If you ever come to Copenhagen bring your stones and we will play, I think it will be really fun.
Look at this one, it is interesting and compare the diamonds with the water stones.
http://straightrazorplace.com/attachments/honing/24914d1242610332-grit-mesh-micron-conversion-grit-comparison-5-17-09.pdf
All my best thoughts to you and the family dear *Mike,
Mads


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

mafe said:


> *Water cooled grind stone (tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water cooled grind stone (Tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge
> ...


Thank you, Mads! I have one of these microscopes in my Amazon cart right now I use the waterstone for the primary, then establish the secondary on sandpaper, then a quick strop. I'm really interested in what 2000 grit sandpaper/strop versus 8000stone/strop will look like! Thanks again, al


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## mafe (Dec 10, 2009)

mafe said:


> *Water cooled grind stone (tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water cooled grind stone (Tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge
> ...


What I read is that the extra fine 1200 DMT is app the same as a 1600 Japanese water stone, so you will go from there to the green compound that are to be compared to the 8000 Japanese water stone, a big jump but with a proper number of strokes I believe Paul talks of 30 it will be fine I think even it will probably leave some deep scratches still seen in a microscope.
So at the end the edge will probably feel a lot the same and have the same qualities I will guess.
Hope it is useful.

DMT:
DMT® Diamond Grit Size - Color Coding
SILVER (XX) Diamond - Extra-Extra Coarse
Extreme repair of a very damaged edge (120 mesh, 120 micron)
BLACK (X) Diamond - Extra Coarse
Fix and restore a damaged edge (220 mesh, 60 micron)
BLUE© Diamond - Coarse
Quickly sharpen a neglected edge (325 mesh, 45 micron)
RED (F) Diamond - Fine
Put a keen edge on a maintained tool (600 mesh, 25 micron)
GREEN (E) Diamond - Extra Fine
Sharpen to a razor edge (1200 mesh, 9 micron)
WHITE (CER) Ceramic
Start a polished and refined edge (2200 mesh, 7 micron)
TAN (EE) Diamond - Extra-Extra Fine
Extra fine polish to an extreme edge (8000 mesh, 3 micron)


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## stefang (Apr 9, 2009)

mafe said:


> *Water cooled grind stone (tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water cooled grind stone (Tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge
> ...


Thanks for your sensible reply Mads and the references. I too use my chisels for paring and I always do this by hand except for when I chop the shoulder line on tenons and dovetails. I also use it to to pare tenon cheeks by hand of course and a lot of other shaving type work including edge chamfers and such. I will try to experiment a little in my shop. I tried Paul Sellers method on my diamond plates with one 6mm chisel. It was so easy and quick that I was surprised at what a great edge I got. I didn't strop it with any compound either. So I will continue to fool around with it and hopefully find a good way to show my results, even if they aren't as good as I think they are.

I haven't been stropping with the micro bevels because I found it was too easy to ruin the edge that way instead of improving it. I believe there will be less risk of so easily ruining the edge with the convex bevel. That remains to be seen, but I will try it and see.


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## mafe (Dec 10, 2009)

mafe said:


> *Water cooled grind stone (tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water cooled grind stone (Tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge
> ...


Thank you Mike.
I would not be afraid to use compound after, but would not create a microbevel, just keep the same as you sharpened.
I send a mail to DMT today to ask questions, I will update when I know what they say.
Smiles,
Mads


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## stefang (Apr 9, 2009)

mafe said:


> *Water cooled grind stone (tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water cooled grind stone (Tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge
> ...


Thanks Mads. I do love those diamond plates because they stay flat, work fast and use a little water as a lubricant. They are not as good as waterstones from what I have read, but they don't require soaking tubs and they aren't messy to work with and don't take up much space. I feel that the simpler honing is, the more likely lazy people like myself will keep their edge tools sharp.


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## mafe (Dec 10, 2009)

mafe said:


> *Water cooled grind stone (tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water cooled grind stone (Tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge
> ...


You are absolutely right, the Japanese water stones need flattening are a mess and take up space. 
But I could not go back to make my last sharpening on a 2000 stone or diamond, I would go the extra mile for the razor sharp, it does bring me that extra smile on my lip and joy in my working with the wood.
You know me Mike, I also make my coffe on a Itallian expresso machine that cost 2000 US, and it takes 25 times longer than a Nespresso or instant coffee, but it makes me smile - does it make sence?
Mad F, the fanatical rhykenologist.
Smiles.


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## Brit (Aug 14, 2010)

mafe said:


> *Water cooled grind stone (tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water cooled grind stone (Tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge
> ...


It made sense to me every time I drank it Mads.


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## mafe (Dec 10, 2009)

mafe said:


> *Water cooled grind stone (tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water cooled grind stone (Tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge
> ...


Laugh, Andy.


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## stefang (Apr 9, 2009)

mafe said:


> *Water cooled grind stone (tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water cooled grind stone (Tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge
> ...


It always makes sense when you are willing to make the effort to get what you want Mads. Otherwise what would would be the point of living? I have learned to be satisfied with less. At my age I don't want to use any more time or effort than is absolutely necessary on any task because I find it difficult these days just to get out of my easy chair and I'm already so slow that by the time I get out to the shop it's almost time to come back in.


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## mafe (Dec 10, 2009)

mafe said:


> *Water cooled grind stone (tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge*
> 
> *Looking close at sharpening with USB microscope*
> Water cooled grind stone (Tormek), and Touch-Up of the edge
> ...


Smiles Mike.


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