# Glue up warped, options to fix



## lumberjoe (Mar 30, 2012)

I've been working on a table for a while, It's my first venture into arts and crafts and I am taking my time with it. The table top is made from curly ash and is 21×24 - 3 pieces laminated. That was the first thing I did about 3 weeks ago. I only sanded it to 80 grit so far - no final sanding and no finish. It has significantly warped despite being laid flat. One high spot is right at a glue line. The glue up was actually nice on this one, you can only see the glue line if you look for it at the end grain, and the middle board developed quite a bow.

I don't have a drum sander or 21" jointer. I could flatten it with a router plane, but the warp is significant enough (the middle is about 5/8" off the table) that I would need to remove too much material. Here is what I am thinking, but I would love to hear your options:

1 - Rip along the glue lines, ditch the middle board and re-glue (I have a piece that will ft and match)
2 - Instead of three 7" strips, rip them down into smaller pieces. The overall dimensions will be 20" x 22" so I still have some room for a blade kerf here and there.
3 - Lay it down on the cast iron table saw with some even and significant weight on the top of it when the TS is not in use

I doubt #3 will work and it will likely compromise the glue joint


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## Grandpa (Jan 28, 2011)

I was taught woodworking many years ago when Industrial Arts was taught in the high schools. I even have an Industrial Arts degree. I still am not sure what to do but I will tell you what I was taught. Rip the glue lines then rip each of those 7" boards and flip every other board. Let the wood hold itself straight by alternating the grain. The glue lines will likely show worse. This usually happens unless you veneer a substrate. When you glue the boards, use cauls to hold it straight. Leave it clamped for a couple of days and see what happens. I have done these things and still ended up glues another board on the back side to hold if. Big pieces want to move on you. Good luck. Maybe someone will have a miracle cure for you but this is what I was taught and what I would do.


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## nwbusa (Feb 21, 2012)

I personally would try option 1 and hope for the best. I think the less glue lines you have, the less opportunity for problems you will have. I've got plans for a similar table with a 5/4 curly maple top, so I may be in the same boat soon.


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

Maybe glue them up like the picture?


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## Pono (Mar 10, 2012)

go with #1 I have dealt with that before even with grain match up pictured above


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Laying wood flat exposes one side to more drying than having it on stickers, possibly causing warping. It could be your wood is not dry enough or you did not let it acclimate long enough in your shop before making your panel or one board just had internal stress causing it to warp. This is a good example of why you rough cut material in advance and let it sit in your shop as long as possible before building. All said and done the easiest way to go is option #1


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## ChuckC (May 13, 2010)

Rip the glue lines, mill the boards square, and alternate the rings.


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## Sodabowski (Aug 23, 2010)

Just what all the guys above already said. You might want to invest in a wood moisture meter, too.


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## knotscott (Feb 27, 2009)

I'd try option #1 first. Jim raises a good point about moisture differences.


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## lumberjoe (Mar 30, 2012)

Thanks for all the replies. I'm going to rip the glue lines and re-glue it square. I still have 36 mortises and tenons to cut, so I am going to wait until I am closer to final assembly (which thanks to the cold weather already could be a few weeks) I did alternate the grain on these, but Jim pointed out my mistakes that I didn't even know I made:

1 - These were glued up about 3 hours after I sent them through the planer at the mill. They were dry to begin with, the guy at the mill measures MC for me (these were 6%, and it is KD lumber)

2 - I don't know why I didn't think about the laying flat thing. That makes total sense now. I'll use stickers from now on.

Now the question is, what is the ballpark amount of time I should let the wood acclimate to my shop before working with it? I don't have a lot of room to store wood long term, so I buy it on a per-project basis. This little end table is going to end up being about 23bf. I generally lay out and rough cut right when I get the wood home so I don't have to trip over 10'long boards


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## BinghamtonEd (Nov 30, 2011)

I had a similar experience. I glued up a 20"x96" panel out of maple. Left it on the concrete floor for a few days and came out and it had cupped. Luckily I was able to put some cauls on it, flip it over on the floor, and over the course of a week or so occasionally tighten the cauls down and get it to almost level back out, and cleaned it up with some hand tools. I will never make the mistake of leaving them directly on the floor again. And neither will you!

I use the process that Tommy Mac kept stressing on Rough Cut, just because that's the only instruction I've ever received : I cut about 10% larger than final dimension (within reason, obviously the amount you overcut depends on the size of the piece, you wouldn't want to waste too much), sticker the parts for a couple days, and then when I'm closer to assembly time, I bring them down to final dimension. I think if I were going to need longer parts that could cup and bow more, however, I wouldn't cut them and leave them sitting around too awful long.

Good luck, Joe!


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## lumberjoe (Mar 30, 2012)

I never let any wood touch the concrete floor for any appreciable length of time after I learned that important lesson. That's a good tip on waiting a few days. I generally cut everything right when I get the lumber, and I do cut oversize, generally an inch or two. I like to pre-finish my work as I go along, so I start with the top and the large pieces like the aprons. by the time the legs and other details are done, the finish is just about dry.

Looks like I need to be a little more patient and let the wood acclimate first.


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## lumberjoe (Mar 30, 2012)

One other thing, I'm a little concerned sending this through the table saw due to how warped it is. Is that an unrealistic concern? The edges are still flat and they both make contact with a flat surface evenly.


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## BinghamtonEd (Nov 30, 2011)

You would probably be OK, but if the edges are on the top and the part you're cutting is not, you might run the risk of the workpieces pinching the blade as the two sides separate. Given the size of the piece, you could just clamp a straightedge to it and use a circular saw if you're concerned, and then clean up the edges on the TS afterwards.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Joe
When your concerned about sawing warped wood I would use a band saw to rip . If I were going to use a hand tool and a guide I think I would use a router with a bearing, Doing it this way your router is riding on the guide(another board) not the wood.It may take several passes lowering the bit each pass.


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## joeyinsouthaustin (Sep 22, 2012)

All good leads, especially grain orientation, cauls, air circulation, etc. Here is some more input

Clamping: Was it clamped over and under to equalize the cupping action of the clamps??

It appears you mention only the center board cupped. May be it has a mind of it's own, or can't get along with others… discard it if you can. (No I don't talk to the boards…that often. keep reading.)
Moisture is not the only thing to consider. Natural oils can remain through the kd process. I always plane both sides when doing table or counter tops and rest my boards,(24 hours, based on species)every board separated by cauls, after planing. When you open all those cells they can create the a fore mentioned mindfullness. (I have watch properly dried tropical woods relax and tighten right before my eyes while jointing) When milling 10/4 mahoganies for door style and rails I'll join, rest, join, rest, plane, rest, and even rest after shaping. The door I just completed rested for 3 months before final glue up. In my experience curly grains have concentrated amounts of the oils and such, and even pressure from lignins. (and like shirley temple can have trouble getting along with others) Some of the turners might know more about this.


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## teejk (Jan 19, 2011)

my guess is you can rebuild it all you want but one or more of your boards apparently wants to "move". I had a similar problem with a poplar top that moved up and down depending on temp and humidity (was actually kind of fun to enter the shop and check the board so I knew what the weather was).

conventional wisdom (whatever that means) on new growth lumber calls for no more than a 1×6 board on a glue-up. I think that is "iffy" on some woods. I would resort to the cauls…use with care and plan on a few days to install, tightening just a bit over a period of days.


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## lumberjoe (Mar 30, 2012)

Joey, that makes sense. The middle board is REALLY REALLY curly. I've never seen curly ash before and it is quite attractive. It was clamped properly. I have 2 bessy revos I put on first to keep it even, then 4 more bar clamps - cawls on the ends, clamps over and under with screws on alternate sides as well. Also this is the first time I used TB III on a table top, I don't like it. It was planed both sides evenly, but didn't rest long after planing. I'm going back to regular titebond. It was only clamped for 3 hours, but it stayed flat for a few days.

Teejk is probably right. This wood wants to go places. I'm going to use that for something else and put another in there. 2 on the ends look flat still. I did alternate the grain. I'm also glad it decided to do it now instead of post assembly.


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## joeyinsouthaustin (Sep 22, 2012)

If it is that pretty… and it sounds like it. Here is a good method for un-cupping a table or desk top:
(best done after the top is glued up)

1.Let it rest, and go through some humidity cycles, so it gets where it wants to be.
2.Take the cupped board and rip kerfs EVENLY spaced about 1/2" to 3/4" and just deeper than half the thickness of the board on the crown of the cup.(curling up away from ts) and parallel to the grain or the crown of the cup.
3.Use clamps to flatten the board.
4.measure the kerfs with a set of mics.(you can skip this and do it by feel)
5.mill a more stable material, poplar, soft maple, hard maple, QTR SAWN OAK. until it fits just loosely in the kerf.(you express some hesitation ripping the cupped top, so read up on milling thin material if you have not before)
6.Take that TBIII (I know it is hard to like at first, but the longer open time might help you here) and glue the strips into the kerf. (coat them all the way with glue And set them all the way in)
7.Clamp it hard, it should cup it a little to the opposite direction,and pull tight to the "shims". Let it be for TWELVE hours.

It will relax to a flat shape, or flat enough to use. Make sure the crown of the cup can be the bottom of the table top. You can adjust the flattening by adding kerfs at certain spots after you see what it does in clamps and before you measure for the strips.

Think about how much work that is, and we will all find out just how beautiful that center board is!!!


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

You're wise to foresee a potential problem ripping the warped
top on the table saw, very good LumberJoe.

+1 for A1Jim. Hello bandsaw.


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## lumberjoe (Mar 30, 2012)

That's a pretty good idea. I'm ok with ripping thin strips. I do it a lot for splines in mitered boxes. This is the board I used for the center. After another few trips through the planer and some sanding, it shows A LOT more of the curl. Also my camera sucks. It just makes it look like the planer chopped it up (which is what I thought until I got a close look and ran my hand over it)

Flash









No flash


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## teejk (Jan 19, 2011)

that is a pretty piece of wood. I still think I would try to flatten it with hardwood braces screwed in at 90'. as said before, go slowly. if the piece doesn't like it, you'll most likely know via hearing before you see it.


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## joeyinsouthaustin (Sep 22, 2012)

wow…that is pretty. 
That grain turns from cathedral grain to near quarter sawn at the knot..nice fleking and everything. Cut right across the crotch. This board wants to cup at the bottom, and shrink at the knot. This location in pine trees can be so filled with turpene, that it was used for making turpentine in the olden days. My feeling is it would move every time you worked the whole surface. The kerfing method may still work…

but overall i think this board may likely continue to be "crotchity" 

Love to hear how it all turns out.


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## lumberjoe (Mar 30, 2012)

Because of the way this warped, there was no way I could rip using the fence. Since I had to cut it finished side up, I just pinned a runner to the bottom and rode it down the miter slot. I had good contact with the board over the blade and on most of the table, the ends were really high though. I've got the pieces stickered in my basement now, not the shop. I have a feeling my wood working days are over for about 6 months once I finish this project. It gets down into the 30's at night and climbs to the low 80's during the day. My shop is uninsulated and not climate controlled.

Time to cosmoline the cast iron tools, kill the power and call it a season soon  I may be able to get one more project in once the temp differences are not so extreme where it leaves dew on everything.

I will bring the lathe and my bench top drill press inside so we can still do some turning though.


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## NiteWalker (May 7, 2011)

Joe, I'm in the same boat, though I might get some october shop time in.

I hope the project works out for you and can't wait to see it finished up.


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## joeyinsouthaustin (Sep 22, 2012)

Out of politeness, I won't comment on the weather in my part of the world.


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## teejk (Jan 19, 2011)

I get to gloat! finished 30'x40' that I took the time to run radiant tubing before the concrete floor. Insulated with white steel ceiling and walls!


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## lumberjoe (Mar 30, 2012)

I hate you guys. I would LOVE to rip this structure down and start over, but this is just playtime for me and I don't make things with the intent to sell them, however I have been persuaded to let several items go for the right price. I have 4 kids to put through college and a wife who has hobbies as well. When I retire I will absolutely be building an awesome stand alone shop … with radiant tubing under the concrete  and magically have wood that never warps


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## teejk (Jan 19, 2011)

Keep dreaming about the wood not warping! we are into "new growth" lumber. I saw a whole pallet of 1×6 pine at HD (swedish origin I think). the entire pallet should have been sold as rain gutters.

I rely a lot on hardwood cross braces under the larger glue-ups. I don't think I'm cheating at all since I have pulled apart a few OLD oak tables and see them there also.

on your dream list, I'll add that radiant is great (I can keep 55F or lower…something about warm feet/legs telling the rest of the body that everything is fine)!

but you are severely limited on what you do in your shop.


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## lumberjoe (Mar 30, 2012)

That's not a bad idea (cross braces). Home depot pine is the worst. When I need it for something, I usually by a 1×12 and can get maybe two or three 3" wide sections from it that don't look like rain gutters. If it's not cupped almost in half, it's twisted like a pretzel, riddled with knots, or has a core running down the middle.


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## joeyinsouthaustin (Sep 22, 2012)

mmmmmm….pretzels


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## teejk (Jan 19, 2011)

lumberjoe…in "new growth" lumber I tend to go thinner unless I know I can fasten it quick. 1×4 material requires a few more biscs and a little more time but seems to be much more stable than even 1×6 material. I wouldn't even think about new > 6" stock anymore.


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## lumberjoe (Mar 30, 2012)

The hardwood I get is all old(er) growth. The mill owner owns the land the trees are on also. Some around here, some in NY, and some in PA. I see the logs he saws up and they must be REALLY old because not only are they really big around, but they are really long for being that large in diameter. I think everyone is screwed for Pine though.


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## alba (Jul 31, 2010)

Joe leave it aside

jamie


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## teejk (Jan 19, 2011)

you be a lucky guy Joe…most of us have to deal with new-growth lumber (and I'll add that I think the new growth lumber has been "bred" to grow bigger and faster). Regardless, as said previously, let it rest to see what it wants to do.


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## lumberjoe (Mar 30, 2012)

That's the plan, I probably won't even look at these 4 boards (I put the possible substitute in the mix also) for about 2 weeks, unless I get super inspired AND a babysitter this weekend.


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## teejk (Jan 19, 2011)

lumber…find the flatest surface you can and about 6 bags of sand…see if you can bend it while you babysit!


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## lumberjoe (Mar 30, 2012)

My wife hates it when I call it babysitting. Here quote "when they are YOUR kids, it's called being a parent!". Nothing is going to take the bow out of the "pretty board". I am going to do the kerf kutting trick and cheat with cross braces.


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## teejk (Jan 19, 2011)

ok…go with the "parenting" thing. We both know that they only tolerate you and as soon as Mommy walks in the door, you are "persona non grata"...reality is that you are babysitting…but file under "choose your battles".

I think I'd try to SLOWLY brace it with hardwood and big screws (#12s maybe). I've pulled apart a few old round oak tables and that's how they were built.


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## lumberjoe (Mar 30, 2012)

I glued it up today for the second time. I cauled the crap out of it and used almost every clamp I had so I could apply lighter, but even pressure. I'm not going to be ready to do anything with it until Saturday, So I'll check on it periodically, but the clamps are staying on. So far so good, but it glued up perfect the first time too.

Also I got the super warped board flat using a planer sled. I wanted the top to be 7/8" thick, but am down to a round 3/4 now.


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## lumberjoe (Mar 30, 2012)

The Damned thing warped AGAIN. I ripped it an re-glued it for the 3rd time. This time was a winner - BUT - the nice piece I wanted in the middle I had to put on the far left. bummer. It kind of looks like crap now. I also didn't like the endgrain showing in the front of the table, so I made breadboard ends for the first time. Tricky but I got it right. I left the ends 1/2" proud and chamfered them. Now I need to finish it. This has been wiped down with mineral spirits so I can see all the spots I missed when I finish sanded:


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## lumberjoe (Mar 30, 2012)

Thanks for all the help guys! I was able to finish this table today. It came out good. I'll post the project when I have some time (and take some decent pictures)


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## nwbusa (Feb 21, 2012)

Joe, that looks really good and I would say the extra effort paid off! The walnut (?) inlays are a great accent to the piece. Great job.


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## lumberjoe (Mar 30, 2012)

Yeah, it's walnut and ash. The aprons look cool, but photograph like crap because they are so curly. I was worried the walnut would be too much, so I used it sparingly.


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