# Hide Glue



## David (Jan 26, 2007)

*Make Your Own (Non-Metallic) Hide Glue Brush!*

I have been gearing up for a particular project. In preparation I have been doing a bit of research on using hide glue. For the purist, it is best to use a glue brush without a metal ferrule. The reasoning behind this is the metal ferrule can potentially cause a black stain. There are brushes available for hide glue but there are rather expensive. For the time being, I am spending shop funds on materials and tools.

The focus of this blog is to show an inexpensive alternative to an expensive glue brush. Perhaps just enough to experiment before making a decision to purchase a brush or continue to make your own.

To make your own hide glue brush, all you need is an inexpensive chip brush, a sail needle, and some waxed sail cord. Start by removing the metal ferrule and drilling 3/16 holes in the indentations left by the ferrule. Next, sand the bristle bundle flat so it will mate up with the end of the brush handle.










The following photos show how to stitch the bristle bundle on to the end of the brush handle. It is pretty easy to do with a sail needle . . . just take your time and keep everything snug.




























The next step is a bit more complicated. However, if you have the courage to remove the metal ferrule and sand a bristle bundle flat than you are up for *whipping* the handle end! Whipping is a type of *knot* that secures the end of a rope and is perfect for finishing your glue brush. For the sailors and Boy Scouts in the crowd this will be a snap!










This is the result when you are done . . . a perfect brush for use with hide glue. Now all you need is some *hide glue* and a *glue pot*!










Good sources for additional information can be found on luthier websites and library / archiving websites.

David
*The Folding Rule Blog*

*Some Interesting Glue Brush Links*

*Solo Horton Brushes*

*Tools For Working Wood - Glue Brushes*

*Demco*

*Indiana University Libraries Preservation Department*


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## toddc (Mar 6, 2007)

David said:


> *Make Your Own (Non-Metallic) Hide Glue Brush!*
> 
> I have been gearing up for a particular project. In preparation I have been doing a bit of research on using hide glue. For the purist, it is best to use a glue brush without a metal ferrule. The reasoning behind this is the metal ferrule can potentially cause a black stain. There are brushes available for hide glue but there are rather expensive. For the time being, I am spending shop funds on materials and tools.
> 
> ...


This technical information is great Dave, thanks for sharing the research.


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## FlWoodRat (Sep 12, 2007)

David said:


> *Make Your Own (Non-Metallic) Hide Glue Brush!*
> 
> I have been gearing up for a particular project. In preparation I have been doing a bit of research on using hide glue. For the purist, it is best to use a glue brush without a metal ferrule. The reasoning behind this is the metal ferrule can potentially cause a black stain. There are brushes available for hide glue but there are rather expensive. For the time being, I am spending shop funds on materials and tools.
> 
> ...


Way cool David. Obviously, the college class you took in basket weaving paid off.


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## LeeJ (Jul 4, 2007)

David said:


> *Make Your Own (Non-Metallic) Hide Glue Brush!*
> 
> I have been gearing up for a particular project. In preparation I have been doing a bit of research on using hide glue. For the purist, it is best to use a glue brush without a metal ferrule. The reasoning behind this is the metal ferrule can potentially cause a black stain. There are brushes available for hide glue but there are rather expensive. For the time being, I am spending shop funds on materials and tools.
> 
> ...


Hi David,

What a great idea. Also very neatly done. Is that a skill learned from sewing up cuts?

I've had stitches that started out in the same fashion. LOL

Lee


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## toddc (Mar 6, 2007)

David said:


> *Make Your Own (Non-Metallic) Hide Glue Brush!*
> 
> I have been gearing up for a particular project. In preparation I have been doing a bit of research on using hide glue. For the purist, it is best to use a glue brush without a metal ferrule. The reasoning behind this is the metal ferrule can potentially cause a black stain. There are brushes available for hide glue but there are rather expensive. For the time being, I am spending shop funds on materials and tools.
> 
> ...


Dave Pruett, Curator


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## David (Jan 26, 2007)

David said:


> *Make Your Own (Non-Metallic) Hide Glue Brush!*
> 
> I have been gearing up for a particular project. In preparation I have been doing a bit of research on using hide glue. For the purist, it is best to use a glue brush without a metal ferrule. The reasoning behind this is the metal ferrule can potentially cause a black stain. There are brushes available for hide glue but there are rather expensive. For the time being, I am spending shop funds on materials and tools.
> 
> ...


Thanks guys!

Lee, I do hope my sutures look better and are smaller!


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## Karson (May 9, 2006)

David said:


> *Make Your Own (Non-Metallic) Hide Glue Brush!*
> 
> I have been gearing up for a particular project. In preparation I have been doing a bit of research on using hide glue. For the purist, it is best to use a glue brush without a metal ferrule. The reasoning behind this is the metal ferrule can potentially cause a black stain. There are brushes available for hide glue but there are rather expensive. For the time being, I am spending shop funds on materials and tools.
> 
> ...


Nice David.


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## David (Jan 26, 2007)

*Hide Glue Primer*

http://blip.tv/play/gpsF6PFfAA%2Em4v

I am interested in hide glue for a number of reasons. The first of which is the "romance" of using a traditional method that has its foundations as far back as Ancient Egypt and the cabinet shops of Colonial America. I also appreciate the pace of using hide glue . . . slow while getting set-up and quick when applying the glue. I also like the reversibility of hide glue and the fact that it accepts stain and finish without leaving telltale glue marks like that pesky spot of PVA that you missed during final clean up. All that said, hide glue is not the main glue in my shop, but I am adding it to my shop armamentarium. You can experiment with this fascinating and historic glue inexpensively. Trust me, you won't regret the adventure!

*A Hide Glue Primer*

*Properties of HideGglue*

1. Hide glue is *thermoplastic* - softens to a liquid state when warmed and solidifies when cool

2. Hide glue is *hydroscopic* - in other words, it has an affinity for water which means, for wood working purposes, it responds to some degree with changes in relative humidity just as wood does and more importantly, a hide glue joint can be "reversed" with warm water

3. Hide glue is an *animal protein (collagen)* - when hide glue cools (dries) the protein structure contracts (on a molecular level) which has the effect of clamping

4. *Hide glue grading* - hide glue is graded in terms of "gram strength" (GEEK FACTOID: gram strength is a measure of how many grams of force it requires to depress a 1/2" plunger 4mm. into a 12.5% protein solution of the glue at 10° C). Hide glue gram strengths range from 85 to 379. The important point to know is the higher the gram strength, the quicker the set. The general recommendation range for for woodworking applications is 135 - 251 gram strength (192 or 195 is considered the all around glue for most woodworking applications).

*Some Work Flow Considerations for Using Hide Glue*

1. Mix a large batch of hide glue and pour into a set of ice cube trays. Store the premixed "hide glue cubes" in the freezer. Add the cubes to the glue pot as needed to keep a batch of working hide glue ready at the bench.

2. The general rule of thumb for mixing hide glue is one cup of dry glue to one cup water, vary the amount of water depending on the desired consistency. Add the glue to the water and allow to soak for 30 minutes. Stir occasionally while gently heating to 140 F°. Be careful to not "cook" the glue as this will weaken the glue by breaking down the protein molecular chains.

3. On a day when you are planning on working with hide glue, the second thing to be turned on after the shop lights is the glue pot!

4. Your glue pot can be covered with plastic wrap and stored in the refrigerator overnight. After a week of use (heat-cool-heat) it is best to discard and start with a fresh batch.

*Modifications to Hide Glue*

1. To make hide glue liquid at room temperature (longer open time / slower drying) add approximately 5 tablespoons of urea for each cup of dry glue.

2. To make hide glue be made waterproof add 1/2-1% aluminum sulfate.

3. To make hide glue flexible add approximately 5% glycerin (based on the weight of glue), with increasing increments of 2-3% to achieve greater flexibility.

4. To increase the " wetting properties" of hide glue add approximately 1% vinegar.

*The Basics of Hammer Veneering with Hot Hide Glue*

Both surfaces are brushed with glue and placed together. The top veneer surface is also coated with glue to act as a lubricant. The "hammer" is then pushed across the veneer surface from the center outward to force out the excess glue. The glue will begin to cool and gel immediately and holding the veneer in place. For large work surfaces, make sure the surface is warm. Have a heat source (heat lamp) nearby for a longer working time.

*Hide Glue & Veneering References*

The definitive hide glue resource and "hide glue guru" is Eugene Thorndahl of Bjorn Industries in North Carolina. Eugene has the most experience with hide glue. *Bjorn Industries* has the widest variety available of hide glue gram strengths.

*Bjorn Industries*
(704) 364-1186

This link provides a good *photo essay of mixing up a batch of hide glue* on the *Frets.com* website.

*Interesting Hide Glue & Veneering Resources from Fine Woodworking.com*


*Resource #1*
*Resource #2*
*Resource #3*

Great source for the "gold standard" for glue pots . . . *Hold-Heet Glue Pots*

1. *The Best Things*

*Hide Glue Brushes*

1. *Solo Brushes*
2. *Tools for Working Wood*
3. *Demco*
4. *Indiana University*

*Make Your Own Hide Glue Brush!*

*Don't want to fuss with a glue pot? Then check this out! Patrick Edwards - Old Brown Glue*


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## Greg3G (Mar 20, 2007)

David said:


> *Hide Glue Primer*
> 
> http://blip.tv/play/gpsF6PFfAA%2Em4v
> 
> ...


David, Excellent post. I have personally thought of using hide glue more often. It seems to be well suited for a lot of my work. Just a couple of questions,

How well does it hold in lamination? 
I believe hide glue was used in Bow making in the Bronze age.

Please explain "wetting properties" not sure what is meant by this.

Do you think it strong enough for large glue ups for things like table tops or raised panels?

Again, Excellent post, thanks for taking the time to do all the research.

Greg


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## Karson (May 9, 2006)

David said:


> *Hide Glue Primer*
> 
> http://blip.tv/play/gpsF6PFfAA%2Em4v
> 
> ...


David: You probably have already seen this web site, but in case not they reecoment that you keep your existing glue pot with a few modifications.

Thanks for the info.


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## sbryan55 (Dec 8, 2007)

David said:


> *Hide Glue Primer*
> 
> http://blip.tv/play/gpsF6PFfAA%2Em4v
> 
> ...


David, thanks for the post. I have been considering going with hide glue and this post helps quite a bit.

By the way, with regards to the video, it only runs on my computer in segments and takes 3-4 seconds to load each segment. Ii don't experience this with any other videos but is start/stop sequence due to my computer? I think it is running on Adobe Flash Player 10.


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## David (Jan 26, 2007)

David said:


> *Hide Glue Primer*
> 
> http://blip.tv/play/gpsF6PFfAA%2Em4v
> 
> ...


Thanks guys!

*Greg* - great questions. Hide glue is very strong and durable. I haven't done any laminations with hide glue (yet!), so I can't comment from personal experience, however I can't imagine why it wouldn't work.

Wetting properties refers to surface tension . . . I thought it was an interesting historical set of facts that reflects how the properties of the glue can be altered to suit a particular application. I admit to a fascination with history! Honestly, I have been quite happy with unaltered glue.

It definitely is strong enough for table tops, flat panel work and case goods. Remember, all the period furniture we appreciate was built with hide glue.

*Karson* - I am aware of the *Spurlock Specialty Tools* website. It is where I got the inspiration to use the Rival Hot Pot as an inexpensive glue pot substitute. I chose to not make their recommended alterations. I find, for my use, that leaving the top intact is beneficial . . . keeps moisture in the pot and prevents a skin forming on the surface of the glue.

*Scott* - I regret that you had difficulties with the video. I know that BlipTv converts to a flash version which is what was posted. I will try to do some investigating from this end.


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## renthal (May 11, 2007)

David said:


> *Hide Glue Primer*
> 
> http://blip.tv/play/gpsF6PFfAA%2Em4v
> 
> ...


Thanks for the research and great video David. I have been playing with hide glue now for a couple of months, and the benefits are numerous. It seems the more I learn about technology, the better the old methods work.

Is it possible to order from Bjorn Industries? Their site was not set up for e-commerce. Is the phone number the way to go?


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## hObOmOnk (Feb 6, 2007)

David said:


> *Hide Glue Primer*
> 
> http://blip.tv/play/gpsF6PFfAA%2Em4v
> 
> ...


Great info on a classic woodworkers material!

Here's some of the things I do with hide glue:


CHAIR RESTORATION


SIZING


GESSO


CRACKLE PAINT

Here's a good source for raw hide glue:

LEE VALLEY

For the "glue pot challenged", here's a source for modern liquid hide glue:

ROCKLER

Many thanks for a nice video.


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## martin007 (Jan 24, 2008)

David said:


> *Hide Glue Primer*
> 
> http://blip.tv/play/gpsF6PFfAA%2Em4v
> 
> ...


thanks for the information

I will give hide glue a try


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## thom (Feb 16, 2008)

David said:


> *Hide Glue Primer*
> 
> http://blip.tv/play/gpsF6PFfAA%2Em4v
> 
> ...


Great information especially for those who know nothing but the more modern PVA and Polyurethane adhesives.

I'd like to add one thing though and that's the odor of gide glue. We had the glue pot on probably six hr's a day and controled the rate of evaporation with a stout lid. We didn't always get the glue into the refrigerator at night so usually by thursday it was getting pretty ripe because it is a organic product. I never used the amount of urea referenced above but I did find that adding about a teapsoon of it to the pot when mixing it up would prevent spoilage and get rid of that less than wonderful odor. We would start with 16 oz of glue flakes per pot.


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## woodyoda (Dec 7, 2008)

David said:


> *Hide Glue Primer*
> 
> http://blip.tv/play/gpsF6PFfAA%2Em4v
> 
> ...


David…..another thing you can do with the hide glue, is use it on glass. I use it if I want to etch glass and want an interesting effect. You just sand blast the glass, where you want to chip off the glass…..courser grit=deeper chipping. You can use peal and stick shelf paper for areas you don't want blasted and cut any pattern you want. Leave the paper on the areas you don't want chipped and pour the glue on, put it outside to dry. Looks like corn flakes when it dries….beware, because those corn flake are pieces of glass and very sharp….brush them off. You'll love the pattern…..keep your glue even thickness, because it changes the chipping. Use it for a gun cabinet glass or a fancy display case, you'll love it…........................yoda


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## David (Jan 26, 2007)

David said:


> *Hide Glue Primer*
> 
> http://blip.tv/play/gpsF6PFfAA%2Em4v
> 
> ...


Tom - Great comment on the odor. The glue actually smells fairly good when its fresh. I noticed it smells stronger several days out and that is when I have been discarding for a new batch . . . of course I am mixing up smaller batches than you!

Yoda - What a great comment, thanks! I spent a very enjoyable couple of hours decompressing after work exploring glue chipping glass and sign maker websites. I could see how chipped glass would be a great accent for a WW project.

I am going to amend my blog entry, as well as, my personal blog with this information.

David


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## DennisLeeZongker (Jul 25, 2008)

David said:


> *Hide Glue Primer*
> 
> http://blip.tv/play/gpsF6PFfAA%2Em4v
> 
> ...


David, this is a great blog!!! Thank you. I've been using hot Animal Hide Glue for about 20 years. Have you ever read the artical in "Woodwork Magazine" by Bob Flexner #35 October of 1995?

I think that Milligan & Higgins is the last North American Hide glue manufacture. You can buy from them, but you have to buy a 50 pound minimum. Thank you David.


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## Karson (May 9, 2006)

David said:


> *Hide Glue Primer*
> 
> http://blip.tv/play/gpsF6PFfAA%2Em4v
> 
> ...


David:

Someone gave me a bunch of old woodworking magazines. I have the Woodwork Issue that Dennis Zongker wrote about. If you'd like me to scan a copy for you let me know and send me your private e-mail address.


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## Karson (May 9, 2006)

David said:


> *Hide Glue Primer*
> 
> http://blip.tv/play/gpsF6PFfAA%2Em4v
> 
> ...


David: I found this web site for glue also. I don't know if you found it.

They sell it in 5 oz and 5lb packages.


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## David (Jan 26, 2007)

David said:


> *Hide Glue Primer*
> 
> http://blip.tv/play/gpsF6PFfAA%2Em4v
> 
> ...


Karson -

I would like a scan of the Woodwork issue that featured Dennis! I appreciate you keeping me in mind. I will send a PM with email contact.

Also, thanks for the glue resource link. The cool thing about these blogs is that you get even more information. I will have to do an update reflecting everyone's contribution.

Thanks!

David


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## jehnavi24 (Feb 28, 2012)

David said:


> *Hide Glue Primer*
> 
> http://blip.tv/play/gpsF6PFfAA%2Em4v
> 
> ...


since the glue will overflow when you squeeze out the bubbles. Well, i don't have the medical gloves since it's the first time i make these glue on bail glass cabochon pendants.Hope it helps you~~
I am glad that you share your experience with me , it really helps me too.

Glass Glue


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## splitcane (Feb 11, 2016)

David said:


> *Hide Glue Primer*
> 
> http://blip.tv/play/gpsF6PFfAA%2Em4v
> 
> ...


Could anyone explain the waterproofing with aluminum sulfate in practical terms? What does the 1/2 to 1% figure mean exactly? Percentage of total dry weight before mixing with water? After the water is already mixed? A solution to make up and use instead of water? Where do you guys get it? Etc. Thanks SO much! I'd like to give it a go.


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

David said:


> *Hide Glue Primer*
> 
> http://blip.tv/play/gpsF6PFfAA%2Em4v
> 
> ...


http://oldbrownglue.com/index.php/store Is a good resource and sells liquid and dried hide glue.


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## David (Jan 26, 2007)

*A Hide Glue Repair*

http://blip.tv/play/gpsF+_NCAA%2Em4v

*Additional Hide Glue Links*

*Make Your Own Hide Glue Brush!*

*A Hide Glue Primer*

*Repairing an Old Drawer with Animal Hide Glue*

Last night I was startled awake from a woodworking daydream by a loud crashing sound from our home office. The side and bottom fell out of drawer of our antique oak desk when Beth was trying to get a box of staples from the rear of the long drawer. Sounds like a repair brewing! Well this desk is an older "antique" oak English library desk. Beth and I bought it 25 years ago from *Square Nail Antiques* in *Santa Cruz, California*. It is a great desk, but honestly it is nothing super special . . . just a good sturdy desk that has served us well.










Now there are many ways to approach this repair. Given my interest in "blended methods", I chose a traditional method using animal hide glue. It was very interesting to examine the (machine cut) dovetails, drawer bottom groove and the 3-ply drawer bottom. To get things going, I gently scraped away the old glue and brittle shellac from the dovetails and drawer side.










I was met by a surprise when I retrieved my hide glue jar from the refrigerator. A small patch of mold had begun to grow along one edge of the glue. Serves me right! It had been awhile since I had fired up the glue pot.










I quickly mixed up a fresh batch and got to work repairing the drawer.










In no time at all the drawer was in the clamps and I had a fresh batch of hide glue for up coming projects.


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## toddc (Mar 6, 2007)

David said:


> *A Hide Glue Repair*
> 
> http://blip.tv/play/gpsF+_NCAA%2Em4v
> 
> ...


Oh, there you are! Wondered where you been.


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## toddc (Mar 6, 2007)

David said:


> *A Hide Glue Repair*
> 
> http://blip.tv/play/gpsF+_NCAA%2Em4v
> 
> ...


I love the font!


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## David (Jan 26, 2007)

David said:


> *A Hide Glue Repair*
> 
> http://blip.tv/play/gpsF+_NCAA%2Em4v
> 
> ...


Hey Todd -

Thanks for the comments! I have been busy in the shop but can't share what I'm up to quite yet . . .

How are things in Montana?

David


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## Karson (May 9, 2006)

David said:


> *A Hide Glue Repair*
> 
> http://blip.tv/play/gpsF+_NCAA%2Em4v
> 
> ...


Great blog David. But I would have expected a few more steps. Using the brush to put the glue in the joints etc.


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## David (Jan 26, 2007)

David said:


> *A Hide Glue Repair*
> 
> http://blip.tv/play/gpsF+_NCAA%2Em4v
> 
> ...


Karson -

That made me smile a bit as that was my intention. Things got going a bit more quickly than anticipated and moving a camera around suddenly went to the bottom of the list!

David


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## LeeJ (Jul 4, 2007)

David said:


> *A Hide Glue Repair*
> 
> http://blip.tv/play/gpsF+_NCAA%2Em4v
> 
> ...


Hi David;

Funny how that happens with hot hide glue, huh?

It kind of dictates the pace.

Good to see you posting.

Lee


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## toddc (Mar 6, 2007)

David said:


> *A Hide Glue Repair*
> 
> http://blip.tv/play/gpsF+_NCAA%2Em4v
> 
> ...


I watched your slideshow a couple more times today. Did you just use the iMovie program for that?

I am interested because you know that I have a lot of photos of past projects but no movie footage. I think that a live narration mixed with still shots would be a way to keep it interesting.

I think that I have a lot of good information to get out concerning the challenges of these projects.


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## WayneC (Mar 8, 2007)

David said:


> *A Hide Glue Repair*
> 
> http://blip.tv/play/gpsF+_NCAA%2Em4v
> 
> ...


Hey you going to Hop on Southwest tomorrow and Join us at the Sacramento Woodworking show on Saturday? : ^)

Thanks for the nice blog post. Looking forward to seeing what you have under wraps.


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## toddc (Mar 6, 2007)

David said:


> *A Hide Glue Repair*
> 
> http://blip.tv/play/gpsF+_NCAA%2Em4v
> 
> ...


Sorry to say it - No.

I would *LOVE* to hook up with you guys, but I don't see that happening this time around.


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## David (Jan 26, 2007)

David said:


> *A Hide Glue Repair*
> 
> http://blip.tv/play/gpsF+_NCAA%2Em4v
> 
> ...


Lee -

Hide glue does have its own pace! I am finding it to be a very useful addition to the shop.

Todd -

I used iPhoto and iMovie. We could touch base on Skype next week if you have some spare time and I can walk you thru the process.

Wayne -

Always good to hear from you. I wish I could hop a jet and attend the Sacramento Woodworking Show! It would be fun to finally meet and collectively drool over some cool tools.


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## toddc (Mar 6, 2007)

David said:


> *A Hide Glue Repair*
> 
> http://blip.tv/play/gpsF+_NCAA%2Em4v
> 
> ...


I would love to talk to you. I am close to finishing a project and I might do something with video again.

I wasn't sure if the question was directed toward you or me since I had an invite from one of the LJ members earlier.


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