# How do I know if a plane should be bevel up or down?



## zemzero (Feb 26, 2020)

This was found in my grandmas garage with the iron next to it and I have no idea if I should have it bevel up or down, or if it even matters to the plane itself IE, its interchangeable based on what I need to use it for.

I sharpened the plane to 25 degrees as best as I could, then I put a primary bevel at near 10 degrees. A mistake? I have no idea. It looks like a smoothing plane and seems to cut reasonably well. Well enough for someone who has no idea on how to actually use it. The corners dig in a lot, I clearly didnt camber it well enough as I don't get any ribbons the size of the blade and the gouges I make with it are deep. Really deep.

1. Is a hand plane made specifically for an iron to be bevel up or down?
2. Is there a correct angle for the bevel I should re-grind to and do I really need a primary bevel?
3. Is it unlikely to be able to use this plane to square up the edges of boards under 24"?
4. Is this actually a smoothing plane? I can't seem to get thin shavings. I either get small chips or thick ribbons.



















Im trying to square up this practice board on the left but I seem to keep making it worse, I just cant get rid of the divets.


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## WalkerR (Feb 8, 2017)

Definitely bevel down for that design. The size looks like a smoothing plane. i.e. smoothing already flattened surfaces (instead of using sandpaper). What you're trying to do is called edge jointing, which is typically done with a much larger plane (Like a Stanley #7 or #8) called a jointing plane. These have longer beds, more surface area to 'register' against the work piece. This theoretically can be done with a smaller plane, however because it's shorter it is much more likely to follow the curve already there.

Google "paul sellers hand plane" and you'll get a plethora of youtube treasures of cleaning, sharpening, tuning, using, and anything else to do with a hand plane. Here's one about bevel up vs bevel down:


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

Cutting too much. Start by drawing the cutter up until it doesn't make a shaving at all. Then, 1/4 turn at a time on that depth adjuster, will get you 'just engaging' on the workpiece.

Very unusual plane, not seen one like that before.


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## bondogaposis (Dec 18, 2011)

Definitely bevel down, I don't see a chip breaker. I am not familiar with that brand of plane, but most of that type have chip breakers. Or maybe that was the chip breaker you sharpened and it is missing the iron?


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## WalkerR (Feb 8, 2017)

Google "patent number 1914609". There is plenty of information available.

https://www.timetestedtools.net/2018/12/13/shelton-04/

http://www.datamp.org/patents/displayPatent.php?number=1914609&typeCode=0


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## corelz125 (Sep 23, 2015)

Yup it's a Shelton smoother. Those boards are a little long to try and joint with that plane. Timetestedtools has some info on them.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

I like Sheltons! The concept of a pin continuously moving parallel to the cutter, rather than a yoke traveling in an arc where it engages, is definitely a better idea. It's a shame it never really caught on.

Sort of like a rack and pinion design concept, rather than a clunky steering box and Pitman arm.


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

I've also never seen a Shelton plane. 
Is the chip breaker the cap iron?


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

They had one small flaw….the pin that moved the iron…was cast iron, and had a habit of wanting to snap off….

Had 3 of them come through the shop….and one had a broken pin…


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

Holy Cow, PK! That's quite a lineup!


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

Thanks,* Bandit and Smitty!*
A couple of years ago, a member asked what the thread pitch was on Shelton knobs and Totes. Turned into a big showdown between Horizontal and me. Both of us, using our thread pitch gauges, came up with totally different results consistently. My Sheltons came from all 4 corners of the earth and measured identically, his planes, umm I don't recall exactly. It came to a Mexican standoff, and we went back to our corners without agreement.

*Bandit:* I've learned if you need Shelton Parts on Ebay, search by only the patent number. Most people don't know the part they have belongs to a Shelton.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

> Holy Cow, PK! That s quite a lineup!
> 
> - Smitty_Cabinetshop


*Smitty,* that photo was one I posted, to show that I had machine screws used for the totes and knobs, the ones Horizontal had were all waisted brass barrel nuts. As I mentioned, mine were from all over the place and it could not possibly be that mine were identically modified, which poured more gasoline on the fire.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

One of them that wandered through…









IF you want to adjust the depth of the cut…do NOT have the "lever cap" torqued down. you WILL snap that pin off..









Also…there is no "frog" to these planes…more like an over-grown No. 110
( this one is for PP…)









Like the Sheltons….LONG GONE…
Now..IF you all can ID this…thing..


















About the size of a No.3 plane…..also, no longer in the shop….


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

*Bandit:* Good to see others with Sheltons too!

No clue here on that mystery plane. Could it be one of those Russian made knock-offs I see on Ebay, coming from Bulgaria and other Eastern Europe countries?


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

the theory is fine, but the execution was crap. The blade doesn't have enough support and it's to thin to be a "good" smoother, IMO.

I've tuned a couple. You can get them to work, but hit tough wood and forget it.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

Bandit, I believe your mystery plane might be a goodall, https://www.timetestedtools.net/2016/12/15/goodall-hand-planes/

Edit, changed my mind. Its a Defiance #1213

https://www.timetestedtools.net/2016/01/27/stanley-defiance-line/


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

> the theory is fine, but the execution was crap. The blade doesn t have enough support and it s to thin to be a "good" smoother, IMO.
> 
> I ve tuned a couple. You can get them to work, but hit tough wood and forget it.
> 
> - Don W


Maybe a hock cutter will cure that, if I can figure out a way to punch the corresponding square hole…


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

> the theory is fine, but the execution was crap. The blade doesn t have enough support and it s to thin to be a "good" smoother, IMO.
> 
> I ve tuned a couple. You can get them to work, but hit tough wood and forget it.
> 
> ...


You could just make one from some O1 steel, but the frog area is still pretty cheesy. I think you'd still get some chatter.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

I don't wish to belabor the merit/deficiencies of Shelton planes, but one noticeable difference is how the lever cap reaches down, almost to the mouth of the plane. So, very little of the cutter is unsupported. Rather than tensioning a chip cutter, the lever cap holds the cutter itself rigidly to the back of the mouth.

The integrally cast frog and sole is the real deficiency of these planes, though I wonder if I cut some shims to go under the cutter if that would improve the performance any. I kept one on the bench for awhile for minor touch-ups… but after a month or so it went back on the shelf. It could never be a go-to plane. A very enigmatic plane, though!


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

Getting back to the original post, what do you mean by a 10 degree primary bevel?


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## zemzero (Feb 26, 2020)

> Getting back to the original post, what do you mean by a 10 degree primary bevel?
> 
> - poopiekat


 Oh, don't mind me, im a little fascinated at how quick everyone replied and all the insight everyone has. I appreciate it.

Well, during my small, limited research into planes I came across the idea of adding a primary bevel for…reasons. Once my head started swimming with 45 degrees of the plane but the iron is at a certain angle, plus the bevel angle and then bevel up or down and low angle vs high angle…well, surely my eyes started to cross and roll to the back of my head. Im not really a numbers man and I think I read too much in too short of a time to fully understand it all. So being confused and unable to find the original source, I just started grinding.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

35 degrees.


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## corelz125 (Sep 23, 2015)

Some put a micro bevel on their tools. That's what you probably read regarding the 10 degrees.


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

I am still not sure where you measure 10°.
Apparently, the 25° are above the horizontal line on your drawing.
But the 10° ? Obviously not measured the same way.

- question 4.
Anyway, for the plane to function, there needs to be a relief angle. Otherwise, the iron bevel will skid on the wood.

In that situation, it is impossible to start a shaving in the middle of a board. Although, it is possible from the edge of the board because the heel of the plane is not yet on the board and the iron is protruding.
That is where one try to augment the setting to get the plane biting in the middle of the board but without the expected result.

Read this 
In that blog, Paul Sellers is able to obtain shavings with a minimal relief angle (3°). However, he probably didn't push hard on the plane (motto: "always work with sensitivity"). If one push hard on the plane, the sole flexes and that might nullify this minimal relief angle.

About sole flexing, read this.

- question 3. 
It is possible with the proper technique.

I recommend learning with Paul Sellers to avoid bad practices. He is not the only one that can explain correctly how to do but there are too many who give bad advice on the web and it is difficult for a beginner to separate the wheat from the chaff.


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## tvrgeek (Nov 19, 2013)

HANDYMAN. First time I have ever seen or heard of them except the one I picked up at a flea market 30 years ago. ( Jointer) Fine tool.

Any history on them?

I changed my jack plane, ( similar to the OP one) into a scrub plane as was shown by Underhill. ( curved blade) Use it to get things roughed in, Then I have my jointer and planer. He convinced me.



> One of them that wandered through…
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## zemzero (Feb 26, 2020)

> I am still not sure where you measure 10°.
> Apparently, the 25° are above the horizontal line on your drawing.
> But the 10° ? Obviously not measured the same way.
> 
> ...


 I'll look at the blog for sure, most of what you said went over my head, I have a lot to learn. I'm assuming the relief angle is on the back of the iron where the burr is removed from?

As for the angle, I set my protractor to 25 degrees and eyeballed it as I was grinding (In actuality the bevel is closer to 27 degrees). Then I set my protractor to 10 degrees and repeated (I ended up closer to 12 degrees). Is this the wrong way of doing it? Trigonometry was never my strong suit.


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## corelz125 (Sep 23, 2015)

Are you doing it free hand or with some type of guide?


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## OSU55 (Dec 14, 2012)

OP's questions:

1. Is a hand plane made specifically for an iron to be bevel up or down?
2. Is there a correct angle for the bevel I should re-grind to and do I really need a primary bevel?
3. Is it unlikely to be able to use this plane to square up the edges of boards under 24"?
4. Is this actually a smoothing plane? I can't seem to get thin shavings. I either get small chips or thick ribbons.

Answers:

1. Yes. A bevel down plane typically beds the iron at 45 deg (40-65 deg range, always weird exceptions). The iron bed angle determines the cutting angle. A low angle bevel up beds at 12-13 deg , and a std angle bevel up beds the iron at ~21 deg. Bedding angle plus the iron bevel angle determines cutting angle.

2. The 1st bevel angle ground is the primary, the 2nd steeper angle is the secondary or microbevel if it is narrow, and it should be for bevel down. Relief angle was mentioned and should be ~10 deg. So a bd should have a max bevel angle of 35 deg which is about where you are. I use 25 primary, 30 micro.

3. No its likely it could be ok, not the perfect choice, but ok. IF you can get it operating correctly.

4. Yes it might be a serviceable smoother. More than likely you do not have a surgically sharp edge on the iron which makes all the difference. Also relieving the iron edge corners a few thou will help with digging in.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

> Getting back to the original post, what do you mean by a 10 degree primary bevel?
> 
> - poopiekat
> 
> ...


The drawing shows what a bevel UP iron should look like…..turn the picture upside down…doesn't quite work, does it…..bevel down works better with a single flat 25 degree bevel ( says so right on my Millers Falls irons), although some like to try a slight bevel ( ruler trick..) on what should be the flat back..that goes in front of the chipbreaker…


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## OSU55 (Dec 14, 2012)

My Stanleys say 25 as well, and they work great with a 25 primary and a 30 deg micro bevel, and yes the ruler trick works great as well. Also, if one is inclined, a bevel can be put on the flat, up side, of a bevel down iron to increase the cutting angle to help tear out - not a great solution but can work, needs to be 15-20 deg because you lose the help of the breaker.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

I have an opinion of any cutter that has grind angle info stamped on it. You know what I mean…


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

"Also, if one is inclined, a bevel can be put on the flat, up side, of a bevel down iron to increase the cutting angle to help tear out"

If you do that, for a local problem on the board, make only 3 or 4 passes on your stone. So the back bevel will automatically be removed the next time you sharpen your iron. Otherwise it will be much more work to remove it.


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## OSU55 (Dec 14, 2012)

> I have an opinion of any cutter that has grind angle info stamped on it. You know what I mean…
> 
> - poopiekat


I do to and Im sure its diametrically opposed to yours. No the edge doesnt last as long as A2, but they dont chip out as badly, and I have to hone maybe twice as often as my pm-v11 irons, which cost 4x more. Those oem irons perform pretty well IMO.


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