# Kickback - Tell me what I can do to prevent this in the future



## Fuzzybearz (Mar 18, 2018)

Last night I was on my last set of things to rip. I was ripping 2×12 x 5.5" long pieces and I remember thinking, this is slightly unsafe. But I had my pushstick and started to push things through. Somewhere in between the small piece of wood got stuck between the fence and sawblade and came flying back.

Suddenly I felt it hit my chest and then my face. At first I was confused because I had no idea what happened, then I checked to make sure I was ok. I felt my chest and saw a small bit of blood. I think it hit right below my collarbone and bruised it quite well as I can feel pain down to my fingers and in the back of my neck. I also find it slightly painful to do a motion like i'm curling a weight with my right hand.

Not that it helped any, but I had my safety glasses, ear protection and dust mask on. I shouldve used my microjig push thingamajig which wouldve had more surface area and prevented it from getting caught, or I shouldve used a sled. But what else can I do in the future to prevent this? I'm pretty lucky it didnt break my collarbone (or it may be fractured but I doubt it).

My saw also does not have a riving knife and I had a microjig splitter on there but I just switched out the throat plate to one that didnt. Should I buy that shark riving knife? Ive been looking for additional overhead dust collection as it spits back alot of dust in my face even though I have a 3hp dust collector with 4" piping attached to it wit 600+ cfm.


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## CaptainKlutz (Apr 23, 2014)

Sorry about the injury. No fun. 
BTDTGTTS, I am a klutz after all.

You already answered most of your own questions? If you use either a riving knife or some type of splitter after the blade, and you never let go of the wood as it feeds; majority of kick back causes will be prevented. 
Personally, If a cut even sort of looks scary, I use a different method (usually my TS cross cut sled, miter gauge, or thin rip on left side of blade).

One thing you didn't mention was your body position during cut. One key to avoiding injury is staying out of the flight path of projectiles. Had a accident without a splitter installed, where a 2×6 16" long piece kick backed so hard, it grazed my side and punctured double thick drywall directly behind me. Thanks to body position right of fence, all I found was splinters and rip in left side of my T-shirt :-0)

Can not forget about saw set up as well. Have to make sure the fence is parallel to blade front to back, or some folks even suggest having the back of fence skewed a couple thousandths away from blade to prevent trapping wood. Check your saw to be sure nothing moved after this accident.

If your push stick slips this can create problems. Some folks like Gripper style push jigs, I prefer to use a rail riding style of push stick to help me get more control on small/thin pieces. Posted a project showing example:


Knock on wood # # #, haven't had a kick back injury since started ALWAYS using splitter, better push jigs, and always keep your body out of harms way.

YMMV

PS - I am not a doctor, but pretty sure you will have a board shaped bruise in couple days.  
That one looks a candidate for stitches from the pic? Go see a doctor if still bleeding or pain does not reduce in 8-12 hours. Impact trauma injuries can have hidden damage.

May you have a better day tomorrow!


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

That certainly has to hurt…and a good reminder why kickback should be mentioned more often than it is. On to the question: the dust coming off the blade only has one solution: an overblade pick up. The Shark is an excellent way to do that as well as add a very high quality splitter to the saw…I highly recommend one. But are they still available, Lee (Stryon) passed away some time back, I wasn't sure anyone was carrying on the business.


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## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

You are extremely fortunate that it did not hit your face.

Could we see your push sit stick. I really do not like them for most things as they give only point contact.


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## SteveMaskery (Feb 18, 2009)

Ouch!
Do I understand from your post that your workpiece was 5.5" long? If so, I suggest that it is too short to be ripped safely. A bandsaw would have been a better choice, if you have one or by hand if you don't.

Also I would recommend using a short fence when ripping, it prevents the wood from being pushed sideways into the blade. There is an old clip of mine on YT. It's not the one I use today, but the principle is the same. I wouldn't rip without it. Sorry about the slow start…




And get that Riving Knife. RKs are not optional over here! (UK). 

I have a scar on my arm from kickback 30-odd years ago. I was young, I'd had my first TS about 3 days, I knew absolutely nothing about TS safety. It was entirely avoidable. I learned.

It's never happened again and I don't think that that is coincidence.

I hope you recover quickly. Best wishes.


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## Delete (May 19, 2017)

My wishes for a quick recovery Fuzzybearz. I avoid long thin single point push sticks, to awkward and capable of slipping. A face shield provides much more protection than safety glasses for dust and flying material. Short of wearing armour the body is harder to protect, the first thing that comes to mind is always to take a step to the side when ripping and provide lots of fence clearance when crosscutting or use a sled. I have had a few jams over the years when ripping, always managed to hold the work and kick the switch of with my foot or knee, but it is always a reminder to be more careful with my set-ups.


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## theart (Nov 18, 2016)

A sled or a band saw would have been safer. A 2×12 is wide enough that you could even make that cut with a miter saw. A riving knife may not have helped, because at 5.5" long, and depending on how high up the blade was, the leading edge of the board might not have gotten to the riving knife before the trailing edge parted. You should have one anyway, but still avoid any cut where the entire length of the piece can find itself between the blade and fence.

Backing up to the first line, it sounds like you were ripping multiple pieces. In the future, consider ripping to width first, then cross cutting. It's safer and faster.


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## bondogaposis (Dec 18, 2011)

But what else can I do in the future to prevent this?

It is not safe to rip short pieces on the table saw. I like to use 12" as a minimum for a 10" blade. Rip your stock first, then chop into short pieces. Does your saw have a riving knife or splitter? If so use them. If your saw doesn't have a riving knife then get some of those micro jig splitters, they work pretty well.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> But what else can I do in the future to prevent this?
> 
> It is not safe to rip short pieces on the table saw. I like to use 12" as a minimum for a 10" blade. Rip your stock first, then chop into short pieces. Does your saw have a riving knife or splitter? If so use them. If your saw doesn t have a riving knife then get some of those micro jig splitters, they work pretty well.
> 
> - bondogaposis


+1 piece was way too short to rip! hopefully this was a lesson well learned and never repeated.


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

I use my bandsaw for ripping short boards into small parts.
Since the kerf will be small there's still room for cleaning up a rough edge.


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## GR8HUNTER (Jun 13, 2016)

first thing- is throw away ant stcks you may have you need a shoe with more control on downward sideward forward pressure like this :









second -is body position 
third- if you think it unsafe dont do it
forth- riving knife



> The Shark is an excellent way to do that as well as add a very high quality splitter to the saw…I highly recommend one. But are they still available, Lee (Stryon) passed away some time back, I wasn t sure anyone was carrying on the business.
> 
> - Fred Hargis


I think his son is running things now Ron I believe


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

Mr Miyagi taught me that the best defense against kickback is "no be there". I have found this simple advice to stand to the side out of the lone of fire has saved me a few times. Also on short pieces I will attach it to a longer scrap of 2×4 etc.


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## bigJohninvegas (May 25, 2014)

I have ripped short stuff like that with no problem. My push sticks are about a foot long, and even a gripper is long enough. Like CaptainKlutz said, never let go. And you must make sure you push all the way through the blade.

I am pretty sure you can still get a shark guard. I remember reading shortly after Lee passed that his family was keeping business going. The web site is still up, I would give them a call.

http://www.thesharkguard.com/products.html

Not staying focused is a killer. Most of our table saw accidents are just that. A momentary lose of focus/ distraction on what we are doing.
My only kickback so far was just that. I was new, and don't even remember how I did it. But it happened. Luck would have it I was standing out of the way of the projectile. And it was pure luck because I had not learned about kickbacks at that time, or to stand to the side. But I now have a permanent reminder (Dent) in my metal garage door. 
On a funny side, It was a good year later that my wife first discovered the dent on the outside of the door. 
Every time I walk up my driveway, I see that dam dent. A good shop safety reminder for me.

Quick edit,
Shortly after my kick back I mentioned. I found a woodworking school here in my home town. 
The push stick I am using is what the school uses. 
Here is a link to Jamie's Blog. Wooditis. Go back to February 2014 and there is a detailed step by step on how to make them. 
Take note, she mentions that YOU CAN NOT MAKE THESE WITHOUT A RIVING KNIFE. 
Simple plywood, and meant to be disposable. I make mine a little taller, about a half dozen at a time, and when doing thin rips they get chewed up by the blade. when I get to the last one I go back and repair them, till they get to short. 
http://wooditis.blogspot.com/2014/02/?m=0


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## ArtMann (Mar 1, 2016)

A simple push stick isn't going to protect you in this situation. The work piece is just too short to control properly. You need something to apply downward force. Here is what I use with this type of cut.

https://www.amazon.com/GRR-RIPPER-Pushblock-Router-Jointers-MICROJIG/dp/B001I9UNWC


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## Fuzzybearz (Mar 18, 2018)

Bench dog push stick. Thanks everyone. There is actually a bandsaw right next to the table saw and next time I'll use that. I didn't even think about that.

A bit more sore today, but I stayed up late putting ice on it to swell as a little as possible.

Also it did hit my face, chin and throat but luckily it was after it hit my chest. My neck hurts from the impact and I literally just got a neck massage a few hours before this incident.

I actually have that micro jig thing and looking back I could've also used that and stood out of the way.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

Where were you standing. Directly behind the saw blade by chance?


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## Fuzzybearz (Mar 18, 2018)

I honestly cant remember but I wouldn't doubt it. I know the thought of standing off to the side wasn't a safety factor I continuously reinforced so I probably was.



> Where were you standing. Directly behind the saw blade by chance?
> 
> - AlaskaGuy


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## fivecodys (Dec 2, 2013)

I had the same thing happen to me. It was an eye opener. Oh, and it really hurt as well!

After I recovered I realigned the saw & fence and added a Shark Guard, and took a real hard look at how process rip cuts at the table saw..
I think that I had gotten away with working foolishly for so many years that I simply got lazy.

Not any more. I stop think about every cut. If the planned cut doesn't feel right (dangerous) I stop and rethink it. You wouldn't believe how many times I have changed my mind and moved to another tool to make my cuts. For me it's usually the band saw. I have re-thought my push stick configurations as well.

It was a wake up call for me.

Thank you for your post. It's a good reminder for us all.


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## Fuzzybearz (Mar 18, 2018)

Yup, this isnt the first time things have come flying back, but the other times ive been out of the way and kinda laughed. Ive done alot more dumb things with alot less safety gear on too in the past.

The learning lesson here isn't the pain, it's the fact that I have orders to push out and now im slightly incapacitated which has monetary and career impacts.

Luckily it's my side business and my main business is on a computer so I just have an icepack on my shoulder.



> I had the same thing happen to me. It was an eye opener. Oh, and it really hurt as well!
> 
> After I recovered I realigned the saw & fence and added a Shark Guard, and took a real hard look at how process rip cuts at the table saw..
> I think that I had gotten away with working foolishly for so many years that I simply got lazy.
> ...


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

Just to clear something up… It is not the short length of the board that is dangerous but the width relative to the length that made this cut dangerous. You basically tried to make a cross cut (ignoring grain orientation) using your rip fence. There is probably some rule of thumb about how much longer it needs to be than it is wide for it to be safe to rip but a ratio of 2 or 3 to 1 (length to width) might be a good starting point? At a minimum, you need to make sure that the longest edge is the one supported by the fence, miter gauge or sled. Short rip cuts are not inherently unsafe as long as the board is narrower than it is long and you use a push sticks for the cut that provides good control throughout the cut.

And if you don't already have one, the first thing I would do is make yourself a crosscut sled. It makes 90 degree cross cuts not only more accurate than most miter gauges but also much safer. William Ng on YouTube has a good video on how to make one accurately.


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## sepeck (Jul 15, 2012)

> The Shark is  an excellent way to do that as well as add a very high quality splitter to the saw…I highly recommend one. But are they still available, Lee (Stryon) passed away some time back, I wasn t sure anyone was carrying on the business.
> 
> - Fred Hargis
> 
> ...


Definitely in business. I just ordered some zero clearance throat plates the other week and they called because of an issue with the order to clear it up. He mentioned they are working on a new web site design. While talking to him he said they just shipped out 15 riving knife orders that day, so they're still there and fortunately still busy which is a good thing.

I should mention that my wife made me order the Shark Guard after an incident where some wood I was sawing released internal tension after the cut and bound the saw blade and kicked back. I have a dent in my garage door.


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## OleGrump (Jun 16, 2017)

Sorry to hear about your injury. One can only be thankful it wasn't worse than what it was. I use this simple homemade sled for all kinds of cutting small/short pieces:








The box-like shape of this sled was made with this purpose in mind.

Stuff is held in down place with small scrap blocks and spring clamps:









When cutting, I stand off to one side and push the sled through. Once can safely cut some pretty small pieces with a device like this.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

https://www.tru.ca/safety/workinglearningsafely/work/tablesaw.html


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## MSquared (Aug 20, 2018)

Cool! Two LJ printouts today! Table Saw safety and Wood Clamp (Jorgensen) uses. Nice! )


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

I don't think I have had more than one or two kick backs in my 40+ years woodworking. Any kickback I may have had served to educate me and make me aware of what I may have been doing wrong. Now when I rip any material, I'm keenly aware of the situation at hand. My saw is set up and the fence is precisely adjusted. I am very conscious of what I'm doing. Many times my fingers are very close to the blade. I don't have a riving knife or guard on my saw and never felt a need for them. I maintain positive control over the wood that goes through the saw. If at any time I feel something is wrong, I abort and rethink the situation. I am comfortable with my saw and with my most controversial procedures. I certainly would not advocate anyone following in my foot steps as everyone has a different take on things. I am not a daredevil and I take woodworking and safety very seriously. I do take chances that others would not take, but I am comfortable with that. When one encounters an accident, it should serve as a warning that you are doing something wrong and that usually is the case. Some may not learn from that and they are the ones who should probably stay away from dangerous machines. Those same people might also drive their cars in an unsafe manner.

People are always telling me I am unsafe with my tools. People view safety from different outlooks. What may seem dangerous to one may not feel dangerous to another; one size does not fit all. I repeat, I am comfortable around dangerous machines where others may not be.

One should keep in mind that guys like me who have been working with dangerous machines in the past when machines lacked safety devices, learned to work safely because the machines of that day didn't have the safety devices that are on today's machines. It was the insurance industry and OSHA that have mandated safety standards although some of them are debatable. Some of the safety devices may actually make it more unsafe. I fall on my experience to keep me safe.


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## HackFabrication (Mar 11, 2019)

> I am pretty sure you can still get a shark guard. I remember reading shortly after Lee passed that his family was keeping business going. The web site is still up, I would give them a call.
> 
> http://www.thesharkguard.com/products.html
> 
> - bigJohninvegas


Shark Guard is still around. Just got mine a couple of weeks ago:










Ron is OUTSTANDING to deal with!!!! He always answered my emails promptly and determined the correct set up for my 30+ year old Craftsman 10" Flex Drive. In the above pic, the kickback paws are retracted, but are easily 'dropped' into place, when needed.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> I don t think I have had more than one or two kick backs in my 40+ years woodworking. Any kickback I may have had served to educate me and make me aware of what I may have been doing wrong. Now when I rip any material, I m keenly aware of the situation at hand. My saw is set up and the fence is precisely adjusted. I am very conscious of what I m doing. Many times my fingers are very close to the blade. I don t have a riving knife or guard on my saw and never felt a need for them. I maintain positive control over the wood that goes through the saw. If at any time I feel something is wrong, I abort and rethink the situation. I am comfortable with my saw and with my most controversial procedures. I certainly would not advocate anyone following in my foot steps as everyone has a different take on things. I am not a daredevil and I take woodworking and safety very seriously. I do take chances that others would not take, but I am comfortable with that. When one encounters an accident, it should serve as a warning that you are doing something wrong and that usually is the case. Some may not learn from that and they are the ones who should probably stay away from dangerous machines. Those same people might also drive their cars in an unsafe manner.
> 
> People are always telling me I am unsafe with my tools. People view safety from different outlooks. What may seem dangerous to one may not feel dangerous to another; one size does not fit all. I repeat, I am comfortable around dangerous machines where others may not be.
> 
> ...


i gotta agree,most of the machines ive bought over the years the so called safety devices,i removed because they created "unsafe" situations in my opinion,but just my opinion.you just have to learn and be confortable using whatever machine,if your not dont use it,or you will endanger yourself.so called safety devices wont guarantee "safety".


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## hairy (Sep 23, 2008)

Every so often I search, and watch, youtube for "tablesaw kickback" just to keep reminding myself that tablesaws can be dangerous. Lots of good info, lots of crap, too. It's not just 1 thing that causes kickback.

I think repetitive tasks are dangerous, like having a lot of 1 piece to cut repeatedly.. I tend to get into a rhythm. I stop when I catch myself doing that. I'm not on a production schedule, speed kills, or at least can hurt like hell.


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## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

I cannot believe that they even put these safety devices on table saws. They are so dangerous and need to be removed immediately.

I am so good and careful that I do not need any safety devices. I pay attention 100% of the time and will never get injured.

I also have swamp land that I am selling.

I worked in heavy industry for 40+ years and ran into old timers with the same philosophy and they had too many accidents. Accident investigations showed a disregard for safety was the primary factor.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Accident investigations showed a disregard for safety was the primary factor.
> 
> - Redoak49


A disregard for safety is not the same as eschewing cumbersome attachments that claim to add safety but just get in the way. I never disregard safety.

I've been using power tools for over 55 years without a serious accident. I'm with MrRon and pottz.


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## LeeRoyMan (Feb 23, 2019)

> I also have swamp land that I am selling.
> 
> - Redoak49


So that's where red oak comes from.


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## ArtMann (Mar 1, 2016)

I strongly disagree with this post. The length IS the problem in this case. It is not possible to fully control a work piece this short without some kind of hold down jig. The back end can rise up and get caught by the upward moving teeth very easily. On the other hand, it is easy and safe to cut a 1 by 2 foot section of plywood into two 1 foot sections using the rip fence if you use good technique because you can keep full control of the whole piece as it is cut. The ratio is meaningless. It is the ability to control the material that is critical.


> Just to clear something up… It is not the short length of the board that is dangerous but the width relative to the length that made this cut dangerous. You basically tried to make a cross cut (ignoring grain orientation) using your rip fence. There is probably some rule of thumb about how much longer it needs to be than it is wide for it to be safe to rip but a ratio of 2 or 3 to 1 (length to width) might be a good starting point? At a minimum, you need to make sure that the longest edge is the one supported by the fence, miter gauge or sled. Short rip cuts are not inherently unsafe as long as the board is narrower than it is long and you use a push sticks for the cut that provides good control throughout the cut.
> 
> And if you don t already have one, the first thing I would do is make yourself a crosscut sled. It makes 90 degree cross cuts not only more accurate than most miter gauges but also much safer. William Ng on YouTube has a good video on how to make one accurately.
> 
> - Lazyman


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## PaulDoug (Sep 26, 2013)

Must be the season. I had a kickback a little over a week ago, ended up in the ER. Many stitches in the back of my hand. Fortunately no broken bones or severed tendons.

No reviving knife or kick back pawls on my saw… I am rethinking that and searching out options. I like to think I am a safe woodworker, but it only takes a second of inattention, a tiny distraction and pow!! I also have been moving my saw around working on the mobile platform it sits on and lifting the saw with a hoist. Got the fence rail a little out of alignment and didn't notice it so my fence was a little off. All kinds of things I did wrong,,,, this one time. My Micro-Jigs were three steps away, but hey, it is just one simple cut….

I say if I had the money I would buy a new saw with some safety features, but can't right now, I have medical bill to pay!! Could have bought a new SawStop with what this cost me!!


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## GR8HUNTER (Jun 13, 2016)

> Must be the season. I had a kickback a little over a week ago, ended up in the ER. Many stitches in the back of my hand. Fortunately no broken bones or severed tendons.
> 
> No reviving knife or kick back pawls on my saw… I am rethinking that and searching out options. I like to think I am a safe woodworker, but it only takes a second of inattention, a tiny distraction and pow!! I also have been moving my saw around working on the mobile platform it sits on and lifting the saw with a hoist. Got the fence rail a little out of alignment and didn t notice it so my fence was a little off. All kinds of things I did wrong,,,, this one time. My Micro-Jigs were three steps away, but hey, it is just one simple cut….
> 
> ...


*OUCH PAUL* :<((((

Glad it was not worse :<))


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

Artman, 
As I said, a short rip cut is not unsafe as long as you use appropriate sticks to maintain control. Crosscutting a 1' x 2' board using the rip fence is something that I avoid. That is clearly a cross cut operation. Have I done it? Sure but I would not ever recommend that as a first option for making that cut. So if the length to width ratio is irrelevant, would you make the cut with a 4' x 1' board with the short dimension against the fence. Of course not. My point is that when the width is greater than the length against the fence, it becomes increasingly harder to safely control the more out of balance that ratio gets. There is a tipping point where it just becomes too risky. As in this case, when the cut looks like a cross cut, then make a crosscut not a ripping cut. I'll make short rip cuts all day long and have never had a problem but when the ratios is out of wack, I pull out my crosscut sled.

It is pretty easy to demonstrate my hypothesis. Put your 1'x2' plywood against the fence in both orientations (blade retracted) and simulate the resistance by pushing the board, parallel to the fence, about 3-6 inches away from the fence. With the long edge against the fence. the piece will most likely just slide along the fence or just slightly pivot away. With the short side against the fence, the back corner will likely pull away from the fence. At what length (side against the the fence) to width ratio will the tendency to pull away from the fence be so minimal that it can be easily controlled with 2 hands or even 1? BTW, don't have to use an exaggerated example like the 2'x 1' PW. You can demonstrate the exact same phenomenon using a board like the one mentioned in the OP as well.



> I strongly disagree with this post. The length IS the problem in this case. It is not possible to fully control a work piece this short without some kind of hold down jig. The back end can rise up and get caught by the upward moving teeth very easily. On the other hand, it is easy and safe to cut a 1 by 2 foot section of plywood into two 1 foot sections using the rip fence if you use good technique because you can keep full control of the whole piece as it is cut. The ratio is meaningless. It is the ability to control the material that is critical.
> 
> Artman
> 
> ...


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## Riverrambler (May 11, 2019)

I definitely would adjust the the fence out at the rear of the blade. Even if it measures parallel, if it's slightly tighter at the rear it will generate kickback forces. I widen mine about 1/64ths with no problems. As long as your work stays tight to the fence in front of the blade you are good to go. I always use a feather board there and push devices with long bearing surfaces like those shown above. I think I get smoother cuts adjusting the fence this way also. Not only keep your body out of the way but make sure no one walks in the kickback trajectory. I almost killed my dog twenty some years ago when I had my last kickback. Luckily I only had to repair a couple of entry and exit wounds on the wall.


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## SteveMaskery (Feb 18, 2009)

This is am interesting read for me. I am in the UK and there is a different WW culture here. Sure, there are plenty of people who use a TS without a guard and even some who don't even use a riving knife. But generally, most woodies I know use RKs guards and pushsticks.

Every single woodie who got seriously hurt with his or her saw had "got away with it" a thousand time before, for donkeys' years. There were experienced (well, I wasn't when I got mine, but I was a quick learner), never had an accident. Accidents are for idiots.

Until.

Personally, I want every bit of help in stopping myself from momentarily not being up to scratch.

But it's your workshop, your saw, your body and your call.

Stay safe, one way or another.

S

PS That's an interesting comparison between the ER bill and a Saw Stop. I don't think that a SS would have prevented this at all.


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## PaulDoug (Sep 26, 2013)

PS That is an interesting comparison between the ER bill and a Saw Stop. I don t think that a SS would have prevented this at all.

- Steve Maskery
[/QUOTE]

SS would probably have. Not stopping the blade because I made no contact with it, but it has riving knives and kickback pawls… the probably would have. So, wouldn't have had to be a SS, but I do need up grade to a saw with some safety features…


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## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

I think a riving knife would have greatly reduced the probability of this type of accident.


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

> SS would probably have. Not stopping the blade because I made no contact with it, but it has riving knives and kickback pawls… the probably would have. So, wouldn t have had to be a SS, but I do need up grade to a saw with some safety features…
> - PaulDoug


I'm curious as to what saw you have that didn't leave the factory with a splitter.

Cheers,
Brad


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## PaulDoug (Sep 26, 2013)

> SS would probably have. Not stopping the blade because I made no contact with it, but it has riving knives and kickback pawls… the probably would have. So, wouldn t have had to be a SS, but I do need up grade to a saw with some safety features…
> - PaulDoug
> 
> I m curious as to what saw you have that didn t leave the factory with a splitter.
> ...


I have a Steel City model 35618. Had a guard/splitter that was more trouble than anything. The guard kept hanging up or wouldn't lift when trying to feed wood in… ya, I took it off. What can I say. I was always going to buy a Shark Guard setup, but until yesterday, never got around to it. No excuse or anyone to blame but me….


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## MSquared (Aug 20, 2018)

PaulDoug, is that gangrene developing in your fingers?! I've seen it up close and that sure looks like it! I'm pretty sure the ER Docs would catch that! Hopefully 'just' nasty bruises.


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## SteveMaskery (Feb 18, 2009)

> PS That is an interesting comparison between the ER bill and a Saw Stop. I don t think that a SS would have prevented this at all.
> 
> - Steve Maskery
> 
> ...


Ah yes, fair point.

SS is beginning to be available over here, I think, although I've never actually seen one in the flesh. You would think, with our risk-averse attitudes compared with what I read in threads like this one, that we would all be clamouring for one. We're not. Not because we think it is no good, it does look like a very well-designed saw, (left-tilt, cast iron, switch on the left ect, etc), and I would certainly have one in my 'shop if Christmas came early.

But.

The problem with the SS as I and many others see it, is that I would be reliant on technology to keep me from being cut, and technology always but always but always fails at some point. Just as very careful tablesaw users always make a mistake eventually.

Personally I would rather adopt the use fairly basic tools like riving knife, guard and pushsticks, where there is very little mechanical to go wrong, and get into the habit of recognising when an operation is unsafe (and then finding a better way to do it) than relying only on tech.

But as I say, each to his own.


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## Fuzzybearz (Mar 18, 2018)

When I talk to friends they always ask if I had safety gear on. I tell them I had all 3 and none of which helped. The next option was body armor : )

A ss would not have stoppped my injury as the wood came flying back. Unfortunately I work with a lot of green/wet wood so a ss is not an option I make planter boxes with 2×12 and they arrive green and wet.

Anyways a riving knife could have prevented this but because things happened so fast I can't remember. I remember noticing that it was about to kick back and then, it did : )

Looking at these other pictures I came out lucky. I've had pieces of wood hit me in the torso in the past, but I could take those. I didn't realize that I'd been lucky all those times that it hadn't hit anywhere else.

Quite an eye opener and man am I thankful. Yes I realize I've been stupid and lucky this whole time. Hope this is a refresher for everyone else. My bruise didn't come out too bad and the cut it healing and nothing near as bad as it could be

Also my table saw is a jtas 10 the jet blue model. I think it came with a riving knife but my friend gave it to me without one. Time to buy a shark.



> PS That is an interesting comparison between the ER bill and a Saw Stop. I don t think that a SS would have prevented this at all.
> 
> - Steve Maskery
> 
> ...


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## Fuzzybearz (Mar 18, 2018)

Technology does fail but there are specs you can develop the technology to. Do you think people riding a rocket ship would accept failure rates of 1/100? They don't and they pay for it financially to get it down to some minuscule amount. The same goes for sawstop, you pay for the safety

The sawstop has some ridiculously low failure rate.



> PS That is an interesting comparison between the ER bill and a Saw Stop. I don t think that a SS would have prevented this at all.
> 
> - Steve Maskery
> 
> ...


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## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

One question that I have not seen concerns the quality and ease of use of a riving knife. There are some saws where they are a real pain to use and align. The Sawstop has a very good one and easy to use.

The same goes for guards as they are not all made equal. Some are less of a pain to use. Unfortunately, I think many mfg put minimum effort into designing and building the safety features.


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## SteveMaskery (Feb 18, 2009)

I'm not knocking the SS, not one little bit, I think it is excellent, I'm just pointing out the view that is a complicated and expensive solution to a problem that does not have to exist.

In the 90s and noughties I was a regular contributor to British Woodworking magazine. I did a lot more woodwork then than I do know, so I was quite prolific. I developed a reputation for two things, jig and accessories for the workshop, and workshop safety. I even produced an entire DVD devoted to the subject.

After a decade of unwelcome and enforced "retirement" I have a new workshop and am beginning to make again. But even after all those intervening years my TS hygiene remains the same.

RK and ZCI:










Long fence for cutting panels but short fence for ripping:










Shop-made SUVA-style guard and pushsticks:










I have two styles of pushstick I use regularly, a straight style with a birdsmouth, and a long boot-shape one, also with a birdsmouth as well as the heel.

I've had two injuries in my time, the first I mentioned earlier, after just a couple of days of use, and and a second, embarrassingly, just a couple of years ago. I'd failed to adjust the guard properly and the blade caught it and slammed my finger. No kickback, no cut, but a damaged guard and damaged pride. And a very sore fingernail

So if even an experienced self-styled "safety expert" can make a mistake like that, then I reckon anyone can. The irony is that my latter injury was caused by being hit by a flying guard.

Very embarrassing indeed, especially as it happened in the presence of a retired Health and Safety manager…


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## PaulDoug (Sep 26, 2013)

> PaulDoug, is that gangrene developing in your fingers?! I ve seen it up close and that sure looks like it! I m pretty sure the ER Docs would catch that! Hopefully just nasty bruises.
> 
> - MSquared


No, just shadow. Does make it look worse. I should have pointed that out when I posted the picture. I did in another forum that I posted, also as a reminder to others.

Fuzzybearz, I apologize for sorta high jacking your thread, but it was so well timed. I was planning a post on the same subject. I think it is good to have posts like this if some accident happens, for reminding folks of what can happen, even to those of us that have been doing woodworking a long time, and I like the discussion on how to help prevent such things.


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## Fuzzybearz (Mar 18, 2018)

No worries Paul. I don't mind st alll.

Also, short fence for ripping, does everyone do that? I had not thought about doing that until Steve brought it up


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## Fuzzybearz (Mar 18, 2018)

Hey guys. If I get the shark guard then I can't really use the microjig tool as it goes over the blade and the sharkguard is over the blade

What are some options to get dust collection (even with it pulling from the bottom of the saw I get a lot of sawdust up top) while getting my saw more safe?


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## SteveMaskery (Feb 18, 2009)

Hi FB
I can't offer help on the DX, as my own TS DX is lamentable. I just accept that it will collect in the cabinet and I vac it out regularly.
I had an earlier version of the SUVA guard that I posted above. That had a hole in it for an overhead hose, but I didn't really get it right. I might have another go at devising better DX from the guard, it certainly needs it.

On the subject of short rip fences…

I think that one of the reasons that they are so undervalued is the fact that leading woodworking magazines, which are enormously influential (usually in a good way, I hasten to add) have a long and ignoble history of publishing photographs of absolutely atrocious working practices. No guard, no riving knife, long fences. And so people who are learning take this as the Norm (pun definitely intended) and think that that is the best way to work.

It isn't, and the casualty figures bear that out.

Anyway, I'm off on hols for a week, so that's the end of me for a while.
Cheerio.


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## Fuzzybearz (Mar 18, 2018)

The problem with my dust collection is that even though I have it ducking from the bottom, up top the saw dust is spitting back at my face and shirt

I wouldn't mind dust collecting but to have it shot back in my face is another.

Here is an updated pic. Not too bad


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## Fuzzybearz (Mar 18, 2018)




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## MSquared (Aug 20, 2018)

Now, your neck looks like it has gangrene!!  Glad it's not and your fingers did fair well. I'm slow on the uptake, but I'm getting the concept of the short rip fence. That piece of wood looks like it came from an explosion crime scene!


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## PaulDoug (Sep 26, 2013)

Fuzzybearz, that looks very sore. Just a little higher and you may have been wearing a brace for a broken collorbone! Then if you look just a little higher and to the right a little,,,,, !! Kickbacks are very serious and happen so quickly. You and I will be far more careful from now on. Right?! Looking at the black hair on your chest,,, you have a lot longer to keep this in mind than I have… do not forget… do not get complacent about shop safety.

This has been a valuable thread for me, I have learned something new, been wood working since I was a kid, never mind how many years ago that was, and by the way, I have drawn blood before, but this is the first time I have had to go to the ER for repairs. Anyway, I have not heard of a "short fence for ripping" before. Been reading and watched a video on it. Now I am in a quandary,, there are those for and those against. I think when I get back to it, I will make one and see how it works for me. At the least I am not cutting a thing on my table saw until the Shark Guard equipment I ordered get here and is installed. It is not the ultimate, but the best I could come up with for my saw.


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## Fuzzybearz (Mar 18, 2018)

I also just ordered the shark guard.

In the riving knife options that have standard at .105 and extra thick kerf at .120

I'm running Forrest woodmaster II whichis 1/8". So the .120 would work, should I have picked that or the .105?


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

> Anyway, I have not heard of a "short fence for ripping" before. Been reading and watched a video on it. Now I am in a quandary,, there are those for and those against.
> - PaulDoug


You may find this article informative - Table Saws: Why the British Think We're Crazy
(From Popular Woodworking magazine - January 2013)

BTW: The fence they mention as "once available on this side of the Atlantic from Delta" is referring to the Unifence, which still has a huge following even though they no longer make them. There is also a link or two to some publications on table saw safety contrasting the information OSHA provides with that of their British counterpart.

Cheers,
Brad

PS: I know quite a few people who, as has been mentioned, really dislike the OEM splitter/guard combos - and solved a majority of their problems by simply removing the guard portion (which many people consider useless anyway), and just leaving the splitter.


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## SteveMaskery (Feb 18, 2009)

Ha! Brad, I remember that article. It is spot on in its interpretation of the differences between us. Spot on.
I also remember reading an article by Bob Lang about TS safety and spitting feathers afterwards. I wrote offering a different viewpoint, but I never got a reply. It was probably an arrogant thing to do, in fairness, it's not my place to tell a different culture where they are going wrong. (or is it?)


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## Fuzzybearz (Mar 18, 2018)




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## Fuzzybearz (Mar 18, 2018)

That's really interesting. I wonder why he don't have a short fence like the brits


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## SteveMaskery (Feb 18, 2009)

Ha! Brad, I remember that article. It is spot on in its interpretation of the differences between us. Spot on.
I also remember reading an article by Bob Lang about TS safety and spitting feathers afterwards. I wrote offering a different viewpoint, but I never got a reply. It was probably an arrogant thing to do, in fairness, it's not my place to tell a different culture where they are going wrong. (or is it?)


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