# Curious Question for Hobbyists: Do you make plans for your work?



## todd1962 (Oct 23, 2013)

I ask only out of curiosity. I plan out my projects very carefully usually recording my basic plans on graph paper. Then my spare mental cycles are obsessed with construction techniques and sequencing. Usually when I head out to my shop I have already hyper-analyzed my next steps so I don't often find myself in a pickle. If I do it's usually an equipment issue.

I tried using Sketchup. It is a great tool but I wanted to be out in my shop more than learning the tool. I pick things up pretty quick, but I'm an engineer and am on my computer at work a lot. I'd rather be making sawdust in my spare time.

What about you guys/gals?


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Plans? PLANS? Hmm. IF you call a few notes on a small paper pad plans…

Mainly, mine are already done…in my head. My single brain cell ( that still works) has all the figures figured out. I sometimes sleep on a project, then it all becomes clear.


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## TheBoxWhisperer (Sep 24, 2012)

I do it all out of my head unless Im following a set of plans, which I almost always modify to suit my needs.

I draw things out more to (try) to show other people whats in my head. My drawing is not terrible but it is no where near the level of my woodworking. I get frustrated because it takes a long time and is difficult to express the beauty that I can see in my head, on paper with a pencil. On the other hand some people can draw things far more beautiful then I could ever build.

I will say that I can look at a piece of wood and look through time, and see what it could be. I am still learning how to see what it has been. Different cut types, growth rings, grain etc fascinate me.


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## lepelerin (Jan 13, 2012)

I do it in my head, take some notes on a piece of paper. I tried Sketchup but did not like it or interested in it, even if it's a nice piece of free software. I had enough computer time in my life while I was a network engineer, so now it's time for a moleskine and a pencil.


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## BJODay (Jan 29, 2013)

I'll draw up plans but not very detailed. Usually I'll figure out the height, width and spacing of drawers, then wing the rest.

BJ


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## NiteWalker (May 7, 2011)

Most of mine are done based on notes too.
I have a few dimensions I work the rest around usually; or sometimes things are based on materials at hand.


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## jmartel (Jul 6, 2012)

I mostly work in sketchup or wing it. Sometimes a bit of both.


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## Grandpa (Jan 28, 2011)

Drawings usually save a lot of good wood. I worked in the engineering dept of a company so you are supposed to do those thing. I plan things in my head but if it is serious furniture I like to see it on paper. Things fit that way. I build things for my grandchildren and do it mostly out of my head. If you mess up there is little investment. I taught woodworking in our local technical school for adults in evenings…35 years ago. I can tell you that when you tell people to bring in a drawing of their project with basic dimensions, those that can't read a print are handicapped. Then they can't follow one (a drawing or their project) either. On the other hand when you are dealing with an electrical engineer, they think in 5 decimal places. They want a table saw that cuts angles at 37 degrees 22 minutes….things like that. Everyone has their differences and preferences.


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## changeoffocus (Dec 21, 2013)

If I'm doing a repair I do not use a plan, if I'm building something like a loft for my granddaughter (in process) I prepare a detailed but somewhat unorganized drawing using CAD. 
I do this to record my work, interface field measurements and make no cost changes to my design details like wall brackets etc. 
I already have the software and experience and speed so it's more comfortable for me than wood working.
If I were starting out again I would definitely learn Sketchup.


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

My sequence
I think about it a lot
I draw it out roughly with dimensions
I think about it a lot more and refine it in my head (Lying awake at night is a good time for this).
I build it on the fly modifying when the plans in my head don't quit work out.

I will be starting a murphy bed tomorrow. I have the kit and it comes with cut and assembly plans. I'll use them so the thing will fit properly but I'm hating to. It's like I'm building someone else's thing. Not much fun.


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## lateralus819 (Mar 24, 2013)

I use sketchup. Usually just for a 3d view of what will work and wont as well as wood choice. i usually grab an image of a species from google and use it to add more realism. some things confuse me about the program but im learning. A project im about to start im actually drawing cuz its easier then sketchup.


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## Mahdeew (Jul 24, 2013)

I think about making something, go to the shop and let that thought guide me through. It is very difficult but rewarding to me.


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## AandCstyle (Mar 21, 2012)

I tend to make a rough sketch of my project. It helps me reduce setup time and ensures consistency, e.g. I run all 3/4" pieces through the planer at the same time so I only need to dial in that thickness once and I know they are all the same even if they are all off by a 1/128th for some reason.


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## Woodmaster1 (Apr 26, 2011)

I sketch it on graph paper with rough dimensions and make changes as I go. 95% of the time it works out ok.


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## SuburbanDon (Mar 15, 2010)

By nature I hate to plan but I agree that a rough sketch is good. I get bogged down in Sketchup and use it mainly solve dimensional problems. Unless you can cut to perfect dimensions, a super precise design seems like wasted time to me.


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## MalcolmLaurel (Dec 15, 2013)

It depends. For my rustic work using branches, drawings would be tough, so I work it out as I go along. Other projects using lumber, I usually draw it up in CAD… I'm working on the CAD layout for my new workshop right now.


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## Purrmaster (Sep 1, 2012)

I don't sketch up plans. Largely because I couldn't draw even a stick figure to save my life.


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## lightcs1776 (Nov 14, 2013)

It depends what it is. The woodworking bench was with a plan. The more intricate the project, the more complete of a plan is necessary. I'm making bar stools for the kitchen counter peninsula. I don't have plans for the seat, but will use plans for the legs so I can have the right angle for the splay and appropriate cross sections.


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## mojapitt (Dec 31, 2011)

I can use autocad and sketchup. That being said, everything is done the first time without plans. Then (if I decide to build it again) I draw it out with any necessary changes. It does lead to me yelling at myself on occasion.


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## TiggerWood (Jan 1, 2014)

If it is a simpler project, I'll go off the vision in my mind. On more complex projects I'll do a "stick figure" sketch and maybe some measurements. Once I've done a complex project I no longer need a sketch to repeat it.


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## todd1962 (Oct 23, 2013)

My plans are usually rough dimensions as well so I can estimate the amount of wood I need. Usually I refine dimensions as I go. The piece I'm working on now I did a lot of planning for the routing since I was trying to match the molding on our bedroom furniture. I am blogging my current build although I need to update it…

Thanks for the interesting responses! It sounds like I do about the same amount of planning as most.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

Sometimes I draw a plan before and sometimes I draw a plan after (to speed up repeats). My projects look better, take less time, and waste less material if I have a plan.


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## Sawdustmaker115 (Sep 8, 2013)

I like to make it up as i go but as you can imagine it has gottin me into
a lot of issues but the good thing is that's how ive learned almost everything i know
when it comes to large projects like cabinets and such i do sketch it out
well most of the time. Now when it comes to built in cabinets and that kind of thingthing
having a plane is an absolute must. Im in the middle of Lolcoverting a shelf into a cabinet on my lathe 
stand and i just have basic sketch of the face frame and mirror measurement s cause i'm not 
to sure how i want to do all the joinery so i leave measurements up in the air(if you can understand what im saying)


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## Sawdustmaker115 (Sep 8, 2013)

Well oops sorry about the typos, 
You know LJ should make an app it would make 
posting stuff and commenting a whole lot easier when your in bed 
trying to use a phone to do this stuff. Lol


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## pike0x1a4 (Mar 10, 2014)

I almost always have some kind of notes as I work on a project unless I'm just messing around with some scrap wood. Every now and then I like to reproduce some things so I dig through my stacks of papers to find that one project 2 years ago.

On larger projects like a master vanity, I first Google and Pinterest the crap out of it before spending hours in SketchUp combining all of the features I like. I agree that the hours spent in SketchUp would be more enjoyable in the shop but when I have detailed plans to make things come together perfectly, it's just that much sweeter. I can mess up 10 times in SketchUp and it won't cost me a dime.

Another reason I like SketchUp is sharing my plans with others.

(I once had a programming teacher that would say the only way to finish a programming test was to spend the first half hour of the class planning and takings notes and the 2nd half actually programming. The people who didn't follow this method generally didn't think it through all the way and ran into issues causing them to rework things. Granted, this is more time planning and less time in the shop but do you really enjoy re-working something you didn't plan on?)


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Very seldom, if I do it is a rough sketch with a few dimensions.


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## TheWoodenOyster (Feb 6, 2013)

Depends on the project for me. If it includes lots of pieces and joinery, then yes. I also think that square, more traditional pieces lend themselves to plans. When I do "organic" work with more curves and such, I don't really make plans. I just think thru the process and write down some notes. If I have enough scrap, I try to make a full size mock up first.


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

When i was younger, no other things on my mind and before the PC, any project plans would be totally in my head. As I got older and the PC came out with drawing, not CAD, software I started using that to get ideas down on paper.

Today, either my projects have gotten more complex or I have too many projects at the same time or my mind is too full of other stuff, I start at the PC with my CAD program to start anything but the simplest projects.


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## Racer2007 (Jan 13, 2011)

Sometimes I think that I over plan things so that it ends up taking way to long to actuly get around to making it. But my normal is to think about the basic shape and size of a project and then draw up a simple plan with rough size and refine that to the final plan. Now days I have been starting to use sketchup and find that it really does help me to see the final project better , that is when I can get it drawn right since I am just starting to get used to sketchup. I did a lot of Drafting classes in HS before CAD was available to most people so I am still pretty good with the pencil and paper mode but the 3D views are really helpful.


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## jeffswildwood (Dec 26, 2012)

I do a basic design using autosketch 10. Think about it a lot then when I start, modify the design as I come across changes that need to be made. I do this on a first of a kind project. Then redraw from my plan changes and by measuring the competed project. Time consuming but when I make the second project it goes much quicker and easier. Plus with a redraw should I need to make another a year later I have accurate plans and all my "what to watch for" notes. To me the notes are a really big help.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Here's question: Have any of you ever based a project on what was available IN the shop? Or, a plan might hatch in your head, and you can not get it out of there, until the project is completed.

Seems to be the way things run in the Dungeon Shop. get a few planks of wood in, sit down and think on it a bit. A light goes on in the thinking cap ( all right, so it is a very dim one) and then things start to come together. Almost by themselves. case in point?









Started out as four four 8' long walnut planks, and a bunch of pine scraps. There is even another tray been added to this chest, Brain Cell said I NEEDED a tray for chisels. Still had some leftovers laying around, too….









Was there any sort of a plan? NOPE, nada. All in one Brain Cell.









Seems to work out, though?


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## hotncold (Mar 4, 2014)

I never use plans but I sure like to have a picture or some drawing for reference…that's why I love LJ. You guys give me lots of pictures.


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## gtbuzz (Sep 19, 2011)

Very rarely do I actually go the lengths of making a model of something. It's not very often I make more than one of anything, so my process is usually a rough sketch of what I want and then I'll figure out the key dimensions that I want. From there, it's all relative dimensioning.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

Being a retired engineer, I have worked from detailed plans for over 60 years. All my projects are detailed using Autocad. I like to have everything documented in case someone else is interested. The design and drawing is an enjoyable part of the project. I build large scale locomotive models, so there are a lot of small and intricate parts to make. Working from a full size, requires scaled down drawings, so in this case, it is absolutely necessary to detail all parts.


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## Manitario (Jul 4, 2010)

I usually make a few dimensional sketches in a small notebook. My woodworking would probably be better if I spent the time making plans though!


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## bowedcurly (Aug 31, 2013)

rough sketch, mainly numbers, really just cut a bunch of stuff the same but different lengths, and start gluing, routing, jointing, cussin


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## Goatlocker (Dec 31, 2012)

I tend to make caveman quality drawings with some rough measurements and go from there. When I overthink it and draw way to much it never comes out right.


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## InstantSiv (Jan 12, 2014)

More and more I like designing in Sketchup. I've noticed that projects designed in sketchup are cheaper, faster to build, easier, less wasteful, and higher quality.

I still like to go into some projects without a plan and just wing it but for the most part sketchup is the way to go for me.


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## WebErika (Mar 19, 2014)

So far it's been a mash up of different things. Mostly, I envision it in my head, I may or may not sketch something on paper, then I go stare at whatever wood I have laying around, and hopefully I can just start building it.  I do have a utility trailer load of used wood and some new wood scraps in my driveway, getting nice and weathered. And I have REALLY nice wood inside the garage stacked carefully. So I have a decent supply to choose from.

Right now, if I can't make it out of what I have, then I don't make it. 

Though we are getting ready to build a shed addition for all our lawn equipment …. 24 feet by 12. That'll be in our heads too …


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

great planners make better projects IMHO so wither you make your own or copy a great plan your more likely to be successful when you build. Dave Damsen the editor at this old workshop is a sketch up master I give him a line drawing and he makes it into a plan a blind man can follow . He has worked out all the bugs all that's left is to build it. If you look at the work of those that have told you they don't plan at all you can see what I am talking about some of it looks pretty bad. Some of it my grand son can do much better than and he is only 13. I hate to say its a personality flaw not to plan but I have to think it is. If you want to make things that your proud of you will plan or copy a solid plan. then when it comes to the build there is a thousand ways to do it Quoting Glen Huey there are a thousand ways to do it but mine is right. so Fake it till ya make it or copy till your good then you will make fine pieces you can truly be proud of wither its a turned pen or a highboy quality counts. If your not not going to do it right don't do it at all.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Some of use just keep it in our head. No need to waste paper ;-) Waste of valuable trees that could be used for lumber and more WW projects.


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## Goatlocker (Dec 31, 2012)

" If you look at the work of those that have told you they don't plan at all you can see what I am talking about some of it looks pretty bad. Some of it my grand son can do much better than and he is only 13. I hate to say its a personality flaw not to plan but I have to think it is."

I would have to say that you are making a broad statement without knowing many of the individuals involved. If you do not have the ability to comprehend complex designs in your head (this is not a bust on anyone) then a plan should be laid out and used. By what you are saying and applying it to the concept of art then Picasso had a lot of personality flaws. I am pretty sure he did not have a color by number plan for his work. Remember that each individual creates in his/her own way. To make a blanket statement that your 13 yr old grandson can do better is insulting to every weekend warrior out there.


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## WebErika (Mar 19, 2014)

Goatherder: perfect post. Said exactly what I was thinking. 
I know I have a ton to learn about woodworking, but it is fun for me, and I aim to keep it that way. I am not an engineer. I spend all week being very precise down to commas, pixels and logic flow. The last thing I want to do on a weekend is get out a computer and a calculator and start trying to put everything down on paper.

Will I plan some things? Absolutely. Not everything can be done on a wing and a prayer. And I'll be perfecting that bench of mine. But mostly I am trying to let the inner artist in me simply be and do whatever it is she wants to do. Like you said, Picasso didn't do paint by numbers, and while I may have studied horse anatomy in order to draw and paint them, I didn't follow a plan once I knew what a hoof was shaped like. I just painted from memory. 

We all have our own ways of doing things, and we should respect each other's creative process. There are so many wonderful projects out there and works of art to appreciate. 

Have a great weekend folks! Back out to the woodshop for me!


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## johnstoneb (Jun 14, 2012)

I used to plan everything meticulously and follow to the letter. I now find tha on a lot of plans I will modify as I go making pencil changes as I go. I also may just make a qhick pencil sketch with some rough dimensions and go from there. Wooden geared clocks I follow the plans to the letter.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

Actually my grand son is accomplished he has been in the shop since he was 5 he is better than many weekend warriors


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

I do mechanical design as part of my job. Depending on what is needed in the shop, I may have an orthographic drawing. I made some totes recently to hold my boutique wood. These got cut, glued, nailed and finished without a drawing, just in my head. But it's a 5-sided box, how difficult is that? When I make spectacle cases, I have a detailed drawing, using VISIO. The precision has to be there for parts to fit. I usually make them in batches, so mistakes are expensive, especially using rosewood and similar.


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## mwaldtha (Feb 28, 2010)

Does this count?










If so, then, yes, I make plans for my projects. 

I basically just have a spiral bound sketch pad and I use it to make a rough drawing, take notes, make calculations, etc… I take it out to the shop with me and refer to it when needed. I still like sitting down with my old 6 sided architect scale ruler and a pencil, drawing, erasing, and smudging everything with the side of my hand. ;-)


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## simmo (Nov 23, 2008)

Hi , no plans but a picture ,usually from internet, heavily influenced by what timber is available [usually salvage] and the limitations of my skills, on the go now is a greene and greene style blanket chest from salvaged school lab benches {iroko} with laburnum [tree removal from garden] for the plugs and splines, used western red cedar cladding for the internal lining, total cost ,zero!! £22 for P2 mask as the iroko plays havoc with my nasal passages.
If I had plan probably all I would take from it are the overall dimensions as a guide,I don`t want to follow a plan or instructions as its my leisure time and I feel free to change modify and invent as required, this the best bit ,also getting good at making mistakes look like design features,usually by enhancing rather than hiding,
cheers
chris


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## SCOTSMAN (Aug 1, 2008)

I have never normally bothered with plans, except on one occasion for a book I bought and stuck to the drawings re a full sized rocking horse I made.I am glad on that occasion that I stuck ridgidly to the instructions and sizes given in the book.They don't help of course with carving the body or head legs etc which I did myself with my good old eyes. I would never have guessed how it was done otherwise,basically a build up of box sections with the muscles added for shape looks etc. Normally I just figure dimensions from a drawing in a magazine or book which I draw out systematically before I start.otherwise no plans ever bought or used. as far as I can ever remember. Alistair


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## bladedust (Mar 12, 2012)

PLANS…...WE DON NEED NO STINKIN PLANS!!!. I make a rough sketch, figure out basic measurements(usually forget to account for one thing or another) and start making sawdust.

I really should make detailed plans, but I don't have the patience. I guess it would save much aggrevation, wood and cut down on the cursing….but then again, that's no fun.


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## TheGermanJoiner (Dec 1, 2013)

No


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## blucz (Jan 30, 2014)

Rough sketch first, then rough sketch in sketchup so I can see the proportions in 3d and make sure the design is going to look good.

Then if I have any doubt about the joinery, I work out the tricky joints in sketchup too.

I was very frustrated with sketchup for a long time because I was trying to use it like a CAD system, which it isn't. It's not good at preserving intent, controlling precise measurements, or altering dimensions of parts of a design independently.

As a 3d sketching program, it's great and takes about 20 minutes to learn because it's extremely simple. As someone who's put in the 100+ hours to learn other 3d drawing software, I can assure you, this simplicity is no small accomplishment on their part.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

One thing in favor of drawings (CAD) is, math mistakes are eliminated as the CAD program dimensions everything accurately; especially good for laying out angles and odd shapes using X and Y coordinates. Here is an example.


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## Dakkar (Feb 14, 2013)

While I'm a confessed computer geek, I've yet to become comfortable enough w/any CAD program to have bothered a plan of something I was going to build in the home shop. I do have a couple of years of high school drafting back in the pre-CAD days, though. To be honest, I've yet to tackle anything I couldn't knock out in a half hour on my graph paper pad. Unless you're working with some very tricky angles you can do most anything on graph paper.


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## jinkyjock (Feb 2, 2014)

I always take some kind of drawing into the workshop with me. How complex the drawing is depends entirely on the complexity of the piece I am making. This is of course a personal preference as some people prefer to "WING" it, as this gives them more satisfaction. For me it is another tool in our armoury with more benefits than drawbacks. The benefits can also be financial with more efficient use of timber, and if anyone on this site cant use more cash, well….....I still use the old-fashioned drawing board and find I am running construction processes through my mind while drawing, and a scale drawing will always give a truer representation of the finished piece and can be "TWEAKED" pre-construction. One hour drawing can save many hours (and heartache) in the workshop, so for me DRAWINGS ARE GOOD.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Even IF I do a plan ( with everything drawn out) I make a lot of changes to it. More based on WHAT I have for materials.

Sometimes, just a couple of photos ( that the "Other Half" wants built) and a couple size measurements is all that is needed.

Other times, a day or three spent staring at the wood pile will start a germ of a plan in the Single Brain Cell used as a "Sketch-up". and something winds up being made.

But to say to "I can't go without a detailed plan" seems to say" I can't really do anything creative, unless I have a plan drawn up" Ok.

At one time, I think I had several legal sized, yellow note pads, FULL of notes, measurements and other tidbits, all seeming to be some sort of code. Saved overloading that Brain Cell….

Plans? Nah. I do have a few measurements stored away, like a normal height of legs. More is just by eyeball, what looks good to them. A "carved in stone" plan is way too restrictive, almost like I am copying someone else's work….....


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## TobiasZA (Mar 10, 2014)

Hi
It all depends on what I am making. I always draw up complex pieces on Autocad first and play around with dimensions and proportions, when I am reasonably satisfied then I go off to the bench. I tried "sketchpup" and it drove me nuts, too many years of hand drawn and 2d computer drawing I suppose. Simpler pieces are basically done with a quick hand sketch and cutting list on a piece of cardboard (paper gets trashed too quickly in my shop.

Take care

Tobias


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## Oldsaxon (Jul 17, 2013)

I draw with a pencil. It works for me. AutoCad is not a panacea, just a tool (one I learned early and well) but it can't make you a draughtsman. A good drawing, no matter how it's made will be invaluable. Be careful, be diligent and be precise, errors in the drawing will amplify in the product. I simply don't believe that a software package will make you a better draughtsman. I do agree that a good drawing will make you a better woodsmith.


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## svenbecca (Aug 24, 2011)

I usually don't have plans at all (seriously). I don't know what I'm going to make next. My start is staring at a primary piece of lumber (like an antique red 1X12 in the shop right now) for a long time before something pops in my head. This particular piece of lumber has been planed down and leaning against a wall in the shop for about two weeks. I stare at it for about 30 minutes before I get to work on what I am currently building. Usually, it will be a table (I love tables). When I do decide on a table I always build the top first to see what it will look like finished, then it leans in a corner until I decide on the base and remaining materials required. Working mostly in reclaimed materials now, that can lean in a corner for a very long time. If you look at the first ebonized table I made, the top was in a corner for almost a year until someone offered up the lumber I used for the legs. I don't make plans, the wood tells me what it wants to be. Someday I'll have enough experience and talent to be able to plan something out.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

Mr Ron Your right less error means less waste if your poor and cant afford materials how can you justify making costly errors that can double the cost of a project. The great craftsmen like Charlesworth, Peters, Cosman and Abram often made a prototype or a miniature to work out all the errors before they build it . This is why their work rocks. even though anyone should be able to make a box with no plans a sketch with accurate measurements prevents foolish ugly and costly errors.

I have a book on bench woodworking its a high school level book geared to the novice one of the first lessons is on planning your projects I use this book to teach from it is a steady progression the book covers the essential skills to be a real craftsman it starts with shop safety buying the right wood, then reading a drawing and making a working sketch then measuring and marking it goes through all the necessary skills like enlarging the plan to make needed patterns and how to use your layout tools the right way. then it goes on to joinery both with hand and power tools. There are 60 chapters in the book and if you were to do everything by this book you would be a solid craftsman at an intermediate level in about a year This is still just another plan a plan to learn the craft. knowing everything in this book is a key for a beginner to really get enjoyment from a job well done.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

The reason I CAN create with any much of a "How-to" plan? I've done enough over almost 40 years, that the brain KNOWS what joints to use, how to make them, what sizes work best, and HOW an overall look SHOULD be. Not saying it will always happen like some book says, but, that is what I ENJOY about doing this sort of thing.

IF one NEEDS a step-by-step, all measured out to the 1/64", and every cut called out PLAN to make something, fine. Maybe they will learn enough doing the work that way, that the next time they might actually create something besides a copy. Just go out and MAKE …...something.

May not always be worthy of being in a Mueseum, or a Showrrom, but MAKE something. It is the doing of things, learning to do the things that you need to do to..MAKE something. That is what counts.

A very detailed plan is nice, I guess. But about all one LEARNS from following such a detailed plan….is how to follow a plan. Even the US Senate can't do that…...so might not be a bad ideal….


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

Bandit we live in two very different worlds to me quality is no1 I am very ritualistic in my approach I have learned over 40 years that there is a right way to get high quality wither its a box or a high boy sloppy joints wont make the grade in my shop wither its me of Devon my 13 year old grandson if you wont put your name on it it wont come out better to burn it and start over so to avoid bonfires I follow the steps that have brought me success I don't like to end up with things that are not the dimensions I drew up . sloppy is as sloppy does.


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## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

So…unless you use detailed plans…your not capable of producing top quality work?

That's complete BS.

It depends completely on the person, their skill level, ability to perceive and think in three dimensions etc.
I do agree that MOST wood workers and in particular, new woodworkers need that structure, without question.

But to belittle someone, anyone, as you've done above in several posts, without knowing anything about them or their skill level, simply because they didn't make detailed drawings? 
Apparently I live in a different world than you also.


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## JoeinGa (Nov 26, 2012)

I usually have a BASIC idea of what I want. I pick whatever is going to be the FIRST piece and cut to the size I want. 
Then I measure for the next piece and cut it to fit piece #1. 
Then I choose piece #3 and fit it to the 2 others, and so on, and so on…

*edit** of course I make mostly bird houses and bird feeders from scraps so it dont matter if it's not quite as big (or small) as I pictured it in my mind


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## Oldsaxon (Jul 17, 2013)

I thought, OK, I'll come back…some folks are being nice, good projects, the website seems to be working better….. Hell's Bell's guys… The guy said, "I am very ritualistic in my approach I have learned over 40 years that there is a right way to get high quality wither its a box or a high boy sloppy joints wont make the grade in my shop" He didn't say it was the way EVERYBODY should do it. He said it was the way he did it. Get over yourselves.

why does every comment have to be assumed as a bloody attack? Is this not a thread about what do we do in our shops? Isn't his opinion as valid as yours? Did he say you're bad for not being like him? No, he didn't. you just thought he did. This is why I don't contribute and for the last time, never will.


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## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

" If you look at the work of those that have told you they don't plan at all you can see what I am talking about some of it looks pretty bad. Some of it my grand son can do much better than and he is only 13. I hate to say its a personality flaw not to plan but I have to think it is. If you want to make things that your proud of you will plan or copy a solid plan."

"If your not not going to do it right don't do it at all."

"Quoting Glen Huey there are a thousand ways to do it but mine is right."

"I have learned over 40 years that there is a right way to get high quality"

"sloppy is as sloppy does."

Enough said.


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

I'll post again, because I've seen something here that I'd like to address. It depends on what you are building. I've made bird house kits for Cub Scouts. I used stops and so forth to make the kits uniform. Try and give ramshackle shaped lumber to an 8 year-old and see what happens. It actually may appeal to some people, if they like the rustic look. But it's going to be frustrating to the boy, if things don't fit right. Then again, I've made those same birdhouses in a production run for sale at a boutique. I used the same techniques as I did for the Scout's kits, and I've done it by just cutting pieces. Some people like things uneven, some want them "perfectly" square. By the same token, I can cut all the parts for a small project while holding the necessary information in my head, and come up with something nice and square. I wouldn't try that with a chest of drawers, there are too many pieces to wing it, for me.

My wife likes things with milk paint and wear marks when brand new. Drives me nuts. I like nice, smooth shiny things without wear marks. Lots of range in between for design Vs "wing-it" in there.


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## NoThanks (Mar 19, 2014)

I just about always do. I'm pretty good with sketchup so it's easy and simple to make a plan. I don't see why not to. I could build in my head if I wanted to but it's so much easier with a plan that you have drawn yourself. Your already acquainted with the project before you even start.


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## bondogaposis (Dec 18, 2011)

I use a lot of plans, done by others. I feel for the most part that there are better designers than myself. When I do my own designs I work from rough sketches. I'm learning sketchup and will work with that to some extent too.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*why does every comment have to be assumed as a bloody attack?*

Just depends on who is reading and the level of sarcasm they see in the post. A day or so ago, a comment was made about the quality of the projects posted by the "non-plan drawers." Lots of ways to look at that one. Of course, many of the "non plan drawers" are capable of doing a lot of things a lot more complex than assembling a few pieces of wood without benefit of paper and pencil or CAD.

Some can visualize and others can't. This thread should probably be more of a poll than a debate.


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## TheGermanJoiner (Dec 1, 2013)

+1 to topa. You're a good man bob.


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## jinkyjock (Feb 2, 2014)

Thedude50, following on from your comment. While attending college in design classes we were encouraged to expand our drawings into a sequenced cartoon style representation of the processes we would be using. At first I thought, "what a waste of time", but it soon became clear that not only did it benefit my drawing but also allows you to develope how to visualize in 3D from 2D sketches. So for me drawing is a positive. But I also worked with a guy (Vinny) who worked from scraps of paper and he had more raw, natural talent than I could gather in 2 lifetimes. So perhaps how we work is our own choice but less important than why we do what we do.


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## GregGuarino (Mar 19, 2014)

I draw a great many more things than I'll ever build, actually. Although a novice woodworker, I think I have a good sense of geometry and can visualize things in my mind's eye. But I've found that drawing them out gives me new ideas. Lots of them. I eventually settle on a design … and only change it a few more times during the build. 

Here are a few of my musings:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/sets/72157639547178715/

I'm in the middle of building one of them (the sixth or seventh iteration) right now.


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## todd1962 (Oct 23, 2013)

Hey y'all be nice on my thread!  I was just wondering where I stood with regard to detailed plans. Each to his own. For me I think if I was going to build more than one of something I would detail it. Right now I use sketches and measurements.


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## iminmyshop (Dec 9, 2012)

I used to work with plans only in my head and changed things on the fly. Then I married an engineer who taught me how to draw plans. I also use sketchup. The former, on-the-fly method was costly in terms of both time and materials since huge Oops type problems were a constant companion. The results were often less than ideal too.

After 30+ years of woodworking I took a 3 month professional woodworking class in Maine that just ended this past Jan. They've convinced me totally of the value of detailed drawings and mock-ups. It is a total game changer. I cannot tell you how many projects I previously finished wishing I had made this or that part 1/4" or 1/8" bigger or smaller because it just looked wrong on the finished product. As our teacher said a million times "you can screw up with dirt cheap poplar or expensive hardwoods. The choice is yours." Now I no longer think of plans and mock-ups as the things I do before I get to actually build but think of them as an integral part of the process. Students making stools and tables sometimes made a half dozen iterations of the legs before coming up with a good design. Same for cutting angles and chamfers on mocked up, cheap wood table tops at different angles to see what looked best. The results were awesome rather than the clunky looking furniture they would have made based on their first choices. Unfortunately, things often look different in 3D than they do on paper. The time is well spent.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

Only yesterday, I made a small shelf for my shop using scrap plywood to fit between two wall studs. Normally I draw everything up using Autocad (because that's what I was trained in), but this time I "carefully" made a rough sketch with pencil and paper. I cut the four parts out and started to assemble it. After gluing and nailing the parts together, I found it was 3/8" too wide to fit in between the studs. A quick dis-assembly before the glue was set, pulling out nails, trimming the offending piece and reassembly and I was done. I can't understand how I made a mistake, but had I drawn even this simple project in CAD, the error would not have happened. I'm sure others can build a project without committing errors, but not me. Remember, I'm an engineer and I work with precise dimensions. For me at least, CAD has been my savior.


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## Minorhero (Apr 8, 2011)

I make a sketch up drawing of my piece using actual dimensions. I find sketchup to invaluable for two reasons.

1) I use it to make sure the cut list is correct (many times I forget to take into account a piece of woods thickness or an angle of a cut).

2) to check the aesthetics of what I am doing. Lots of times actually seeing a piece reveals that it just doesn't look quite right.

I still don't know a lot about sketchup. But I know enough to build plans for the simple things I create and I can always watch a demo to tell me how to do things I find myself needing to know.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Most of the "Junk" i make is made with what I have on hand. In terms of what wood I have, what sizes there are available, and what the "Boss" wants made.

For a long time, made chest of drawers ( over a hundred of them) with mainly a few sizes of parts laid out on a note pad. After a while, it just became so firmilar to do, that NO plan was really needed. Didn't matter if they were four drawer ones, or ten drawer, chest-on-chests. A note here, and a note there, and away we go…

Tables? Some basic sizes for a table is about all I need. leg sizes, what top I am to use, splay or no splay to the legs? All in the data base in a brain cell. Seems to work….for me.

others can do as they like, I am quite comfy doing things my way. Anyone is welcome to come a see the stuff ( Junk?) anytime they wish…


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## WebErika (Mar 19, 2014)

Bandit571: I'm in awe of your junk! 

... that didn't quite come out right …


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## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

HA! Good one Erika! You caught me off guard on that one!

My apologies Todd. I can get a bit worked up sometimes.


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## todd1962 (Oct 23, 2013)

No big deal! Y'all can fight on this thread if you want…it probably need to die anyhow!  hahaha


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## WebErika (Mar 19, 2014)

Bandit571 mentions his junk and the whole thread dies.  LOL!


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## stevepeterson (Dec 17, 2009)

Back on topic.  I usually make plans for projects that involve more than an hour to complete. Simple projects get any scrap of paper that is lying around. Complex projects get a fresh 8.5×11 sheet of paper. I don't recall any project that required a 2nd sheet of paper.


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## okwoodshop (Sep 15, 2009)

Todd, I would like to see a show of hands for 1..Store bought plans
2…self drawn plans
3…no plans or head plans as I like to call them.
Personally I have used all three but confess that I changed the store bought plans to fit personal preference and available materials. I have also had head plans to cost me a lot of time and material due to mistakes. Mostly I am just happy to build things and doesn't matter what plans or lack there of I have.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

I just do sketches… then think about joinery and final dimensions.

Did a sketchup tutorial once 8 hour class… it went well, but I don't use enough to remember the steps - - so go back to just a basic sketch.


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## WebErika (Mar 19, 2014)

I've not bought any plans yet. I do have a project in the works that I started last year, that I am actually following a plan for - that I did not mention… because it isn't done yet. 

Like I said before though, right now, it's whatever my head can dream up g


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## RogerM (Oct 31, 2011)

Detailed plans - - never. Most plans are in my head unless it becomes a little complex then notes and sketches. I often base my final products on the stock I have on hand.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

Tony s I know lots of woodworkers those that are the Quote most talented make plans and most of them are now using sketch up to make those plans I am no master of sketch up but the editor of this old workshop is a master at sketch up and so my hand sketches get made into full blown plans before one board is cut the mistakes are already removed and it becomes a matter of do it right. If you want to flounder through a project making costly cutting errors more power to ya. However Ill follow the masters and do it the way they teach. including making a solid plan


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Have fun with your "Paint-by-Number" wood working. I'm off to create a little bit of something, depending on what scraps I can bring home….


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

Its accurate woodworking Bandit I have seen your work it looks like it had no plan


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

That is the WAY it works around here. It is called "Creating". The same way a Sheraton learned his stuff, by going out and creating. If you want to just follow a "plan", fine, copy away. You are free to do it whatever way YOU want to in YOUR shop. I will be doing just fine in mine, like I have the last 40+ years.

Last time I even USED a plan, it was one of Abram's plans, and I had to modify it quite a bit, just to make things come out…right. Stopped following such things after that. Prefer to set out a few boards, find out what project lurks in them, and go from there. BTW….had YET to see any of your planned out projects….....


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## todd1962 (Oct 23, 2013)

It was a simple question and a little healthy debate is OK. For those who are hobbyists I see no reason they shouldn't work however they want: with or without plans. After all, it is a hobby! If you enjoy working WITH plans then enjoy. If you enjoy working WITHOUT plans then enjoy that too. Whatever you create with your hands and tools is satisfying if it satisfies you. I've seen beautiful work here done both ways.

If you are a professional then you have to please someone else's tastes. It probably involves plans and rendering to get buy-in and/or repeatability. That is fine and necessary.


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## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

Dude…"flounder"?

You can't even begin to school me on the need for accurate measurements, plans, drawings and renderings.
I live, breath and teach them every day in the shop and work closely with 4 draftspeople who are quite proficient at Sketchup Pro, AutoCad and Inventor on both a commercial and residential construction level.

My issue here isn't that you believe in, need or want to use detailed plans. In 'most' aspects of that stance, I fully agree with you, so quit defending yourself in that manner.

My issue is your self righteous, arrogant, snotty, belittling attitude towards those who choose not to.

You need to get over yourself.

My apologies once again Todd, I've taken part in ruining a useful, thought provoking topic.
I won't respond any further.


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## Mahdeew (Jul 24, 2013)

I have never used plans and probably never will; the reason being that I enjoy problem solving and learning from my right or wrong approach. I built my home with no plans; it turned out O.K. My wife and I built our shop using match sticks as a sketch up of the skeleton; it turned out O.K. too. I built all of my cabinetry, windows and some of the interior doors, using a measuring tape. All of my woodworking projects are inspired either in the shop or in the woods and they turned out O.K. so far. I have learned a lot and continue to do so as my skills improve. I don't see anything wrong with spending the time and creating a project on paper, computer software or using match sticks. Whatever turns you on and however you achieve your goal that is most comfortable, go for it.


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## unbob (Mar 10, 2013)

My plan making corner.


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## TheGermanJoiner (Dec 1, 2013)

Lol I keep checking this thread. It has gotten pretty ridiculous with the bickering. I mean they are just plans. Who cares who does what. 
Todd I hope your happy. Troublemaker. Lmao


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## WebErika (Mar 19, 2014)

*mrjinx007* I love that cabin!!! That's an awesome job you must be pretty proud of. Very cool!


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## BArnold (May 20, 2013)

After finally getting over a mental issue with SketchUp a couple of years ago, I now use it for nearly all projects. In some cases, it's to make a detailed drawing to test how the parts fit together and verify exact dimensions. Other times, I'll use SU for a quick sanity check on a small project.

Prior to getting over the hump with SU, I did my drawings with Visio in 2D. I had no problem visualizing the end result in 2D, but a full 3D drawing helps others see the end project before I start.


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## NoThanks (Mar 19, 2014)

Who needs to draw plans…


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## jinkyjock (Feb 2, 2014)

*mrjinx007* I have to concur with* WebErika*, that is one awesome build. I don't agree with your philosophy re. plans but one thing for sure, I *CANNOT* argue with your results. So I suppose you are living proof that there is no right or wrong way.


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## WebErika (Mar 19, 2014)

Here's a plan I drew for a gate for our fence …










Here's my finished gate:









Does that count? I did change it as I went along …


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## TheGermanJoiner (Dec 1, 2013)

Iwud. Holy cow man. That's awesome


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## EdwardR (Mar 24, 2012)

I'm too old to plan took this up when I retired. I do search for plans that exist and combine some idea's . make notes and wing it. So far I have had good success. I have made a bit of a firewood pile but that's part of the fun .


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## jinkyjock (Feb 2, 2014)

Question for *WebErika*, would you consider that drawing to be to SCALE, PROPORTION, SCHEMATIC, 1st Angle Projection, or just plain OFF THE CUFF. Hmmmm…....


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## Mahdeew (Jul 24, 2013)

WebErika, Thank you.. I spent little over 9 years building my house.. as bad or good at it looks, it is was payed for by the time I was done; in my early 30's. jinkyjock, thank you. It was a tedious job initially to create things as you go, but the challenge is just as much fun as the journey for me. Dream dreams.


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