# Alternative to pocket hole?



## kaitlyn2004 (Nov 3, 2020)

I don't have a pocket hole jig, but am looking to build some garage shelving mounted to the wall. A ton of the videos I come across are like this:





When it gets towards putting the crossbars against the wall-mounted backing, how can I attach it to them? Most of what I'm seeing is pocket holes…


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

Well, tons of optipms but depends on what tools you do have and your budget. I mean if all you have is a circular saw, drill and hammer, you could just use joist hangers from the home center. They are like $1 a piece. So for that would just be a few bucks, but if you needed say 50 then you may as well get a smaller kreg jig. Alternatively you could just build that whole frame before attaching to the wall and shoot screws in from the other side.

https://www.lowes.com/pl/Joist-hangers-Structural-hardware-Hardware/4294711039


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## kaitlyn2004 (Nov 3, 2020)

> Well, tons of optipms but depends on what tools you do have and your budget. I mean if all you have is a circular saw, drill and hammer, you could just use joist hangers from the home center. They are like $1 a piece. So for that would just be a few bucks, but if you needed say 50 then you may as well get a smaller kreg jig. Alternatively you could just build that whole frame before attaching to the wall and shoot screws in from the other side.
> 
> https://www.lowes.com/pl/Joist-hangers-Structural-hardware-Hardware/4294711039
> 
> - SMP


Yeah I thought about building it all of the wall first, but I like the idea of have the rear supports there, because then I can build the front in a couple sections, since it won't be fully symmetrical front-to-back (I need to create space for my garbage totes)... I feel like as an early project, it's less prone to obvious mistakes. Of course, securing TO those boards on the wall is proving to be a bit of a problem.

I feel like there's enough boards that need securing that make those metal frames… a little $$$


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

If you want to use pocket holes, you don't need to spend the big bucks to buy a Kreg K4 or K5.

The simple little R3 will do the job and the complete kit is around $30.

https://www.kregtool.com/shop/pocket-hole-joinery/pocket-hole-jigs/kreg-jig-r3/R3.html

That said, stay the hell away from Ana White project plans. They might sound good, and she's a great pitch-woman, but her designs suck There are better ways to construct shelving. SMP gave you good advice. I'm sure you'll get more if this thread gets legs.


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## woodbutcherbynight (Oct 21, 2011)

> If you want to use pocket holes, you don t need to spend the big bucks to buy a Kreg K4 or K5.
> 
> The simple little R3 will do the job and the complete kit is around $30.
> 
> ...


Have had this kit for years, works well on the occasion I use them.


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## kaitlyn2004 (Nov 3, 2020)

> If you want to use pocket holes, you don t need to spend the big bucks to buy a Kreg K4 or K5.
> 
> The simple little R3 will do the job and the complete kit is around $30.
> 
> ...


Hmm on that page it says:

"Easily join materials from 1/2" to 1 1/2" thick (12-38mm) in 1/8" (3mm) increments"

So… a typical 2×4 would be too thick?


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> So… a typical 2×4 would be too thick?
> 
> - kaitlyn2004


Nope, a 2×4 is 1-1/2 by 3 1/2.

I edited my post. Re-read what I said. Stay away from Ana White projects. Unless you want to build something that will fall apart, then she's the one.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Have had this kit for years, works well on the occasion I use them.
> 
> - woodbutcherbynight


Good to see woodbutcherbynight chime in. Seriously, he is the master of shop organization. Take a look at his projects page and you'll see.


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## kaitlyn2004 (Nov 3, 2020)

Okay, so seems like the cheaper R3 may be a viable solution, especially as I plan to built out some more items - including patio furniture which I'll also care more about NOT having ugly exposed screws…

Regarding screwing into pocket holes, do you actually need those special pocket hole screws? Surely typical construction screws will hold just fine? Is the screw design a necessity or just… marketing?


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Okay, so seems like the cheaper R3 may be a viable solution, especially as I plan to built out some more items - including patio furniture which I ll also care more about NOT having ugly exposed screws…
> 
> Regarding screwing into pocket holes, do you actually need those special pocket hole screws? Surely typical construction screws will hold just fine? Is the screw design a necessity or just… marketing?
> 
> - kaitlyn2004


No, not marketing. Buy Kreg screws. They don't cost enough more to warrant substituting.

Still, rethink your plans. I'm not sure you're on the best track to get the results you seek.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

I agree on the Kreg r3, i have had the older r2 for decades and its been all i ever needed. Plus its easier to get in for repair work on cabinets etc.


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## kaitlyn2004 (Nov 3, 2020)

> Okay, so seems like the cheaper R3 may be a viable solution, especially as I plan to built out some more items - including patio furniture which I ll also care more about NOT having ugly exposed screws…
> 
> Regarding screwing into pocket holes, do you actually need those special pocket hole screws? Surely typical construction screws will hold just fine? Is the screw design a necessity or just… marketing?
> 
> ...


I'm very open to guidance or advice!

I originally thought I'd just go for a freestanding shelf, but decided I wanted to mount it to the wall.

Then I wanted a bit of a "cut out open area" on one side so I can slide my 3 garbage bins in. Lastly, I have a radiator along the bottom which would impact placement of any rear vertical support.

I guess I could just try screwing in from the "backplates" first, then attach to the wall. It just seems different from virtually all of the "diy garage shelves" i've seen on youtube..

As I say, this will basically be my first project!


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> I m very open to guidance or advice!
> 
> - kaitlyn2004


You'll get it here-for better or worse.

You can always buy shelf standards and supports, or simply attach one of those Gorilla shelving units to the wall with long cabinet mounting screws.


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## Andybb (Sep 30, 2016)

> Regarding screwing into pocket holes, do you actually need those special pocket hole screws? Surely typical construction screws will hold just fine? Is the screw design a necessity or just… marketing?
> 
> - kaitlyn2004


If you get a Kreg get the screws. But if you're looking for heavy duty garage type storage, unless you're building cabinets I'm not sure pocket holes are the right choice. Just my 2 cents.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> . It just seems different from virtually all of the "diy garage shelves" i ve seen on youtube..
> - kaitlyn2004


Remember, most youtube channels have 2 goals:
1. Get enough viewers/subscribers so they can monetize their channel.
2. Promote their sponsors products and get people to buy stuff via affiliate links.

Its hard to make a commission telling people to go buy screws at your local hardware store. But if you link to the neon green drill that your sponsor gave you free of charge , and someone buys it, you get a nice check.

The other thing about most youtube channels is they regurgitate what they saw somewhere, there are tons of ana white copycats who regurgitate her designs and link back to her plans etc.


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## Sanderguy777 (Feb 9, 2015)

You do NOT need to buy Kreg screws. You DO need washer head screws though. 
The normal counter sink head will split out the wood and just ruin the project whereas the washer head screws will hold the two pieces together.

The problem with Kreg screws (this is my opinion) is that their square drive/Robertson screws and bit grab each other and hold on for dear life. I got very tired of having to stop and put my impact in reverse for a half second or wiggle the drill to get the screw to let go. 
My solution to that is to buy GRK cabinet screws with a t15 head. They fit in the Kreg pocket holes (not all washerhead screws do) and they come in more sizes and, at least at my Home Depot, have more sizes that are exterior grade than the Kreg selection.

As for alternatives to pocket holes in general, you might look into dowel or biscuit jointery. You can drill two matching, corresponding holes and fit a dowel in them to line up the boards and add strength. The biscuit joiner uses little oval "biscuits" that you glue into two slots that a little machine makes. The machine costs about $80 new, but you might look for a used one on Craigslist or FB marketplace. The only downside to the biscuits is that they dont provide any actual strength to the joint, they just align the boards (the glue provides the strength).

That design she shows will not hold much weight, but if you only want to store pillows, etc it would be fine.

I built free standing shelves like those (8ft long, 2×3 construction) but I used 6 uprights, 3 on the front, 3 on the back, and I have canned goods, tp, paper towels, tool boxes, blankets, basically everything but the kitchen sink on them and they are fine. 
If you want to use her design, I'd just add uprights to the back side of the shelves (the wall side) and that would REALLY improve the strength of that shelf, especially if she didn't find the studs first.

If you dont want to see the screws (dont use nails, they are just a pain to remove and fall out eventually) then just put them in from the "inside" of the shelf.

Sorry for the loooong post. I DO like the kreg jig, I just don't care for their screws, though they work just fine other than that bit getting stuck in them.


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## woodbutcherbynight (Oct 21, 2011)

> Good to see woodbutcherbynight chime in. Seriously, he is the master of shop organization. Take a look at his projects page and you ll see.
> 
> - Rich


Thanks!

As far as a must have for Kreg screws, no. Like *sanderguy777* mentioned just the proper type head screw. And based on use length can vary so sometimes yes I use different brand but correct head type. Pocket holes are a good resource and can really bail you out of a jam on a repair, or when you need something done quickly and just done. Biscuits also have a wide range of bail you out moments, or for me just keep things lined up nicely while gluing. BUT, you really want to stick with the tried and true method of good solid joinery. Dowels are a good option, mortise and tenon is excellent, dovetails, router lock bit joints, finger joints and dado's. Each with a strength or look as you may want. Don't get locked in to this Youtube mentality of* pocket holes save the world as we know it from destruction*. Experiment with shop built stuff, or smaller projects. Get a feel for how different joints work and don't be afraid to just give one a try and see what happens.

Made some doors for my shop sink cabinet recently. Tried a double lap joint instead of rail and style or just a single lap joint. Not bad but was a tight fit so kinda hard to get together and get squared up. Clamps area good thing! Very strong joint once the glue dried. Considering it will be used and abused hard in the shop the joinery will more than meet the task. Probably overkill but I had to give it a try.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> You do NOT need to buy Kreg screws. You DO need washer head screws though.
> 
> - Sanderguy777


So what? How much do you save? Armor Tools sells pocket screws too, and they are also a quality product. But why direct someone away from known brands?


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Remember, most youtube channels have 2 goals:
> 1. Get enough viewers/subscribers so they can monetize their channel.
> 2. Promote their sponsors products and get people to buy stuff via affiliate links.
> 
> ...


This sums things up perfectly. SMP is so right.

I could talk all night about the fakers on youtube. Don't even get me started on Instagram posers. That would take days.


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## woodbutcherbynight (Oct 21, 2011)

> Don t even get me started on Instagram posers. That would take days.
> 
> - Rich


Yeah lets skip that instagram stuff. It's the internet version of Tourette syndrome.


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## northwoodsman (Feb 22, 2008)

Kaitlyn - You have already figured it out in one of your posts. Screw the shelf supports/cross members on to the wall mounted member from the backside before you screw them to the wall. The screw heads will be on the back side against the wall so just make sure that they are in the correct place because they will be hard to move later. You will have to adapt your assembly method because you won't be able to use the cheating method by screwing the outer rails to the inner rails on the wall and installing the legs. But if you were able to level the wall plate then you know how to use a level already.


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