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## sawdustsux (Dec 10, 2012)

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## TobyC (Apr 7, 2013)

So you want a war! Just kidding, I pretty much agree as long as the part at the edge is flat, and the back doesn't have a twist or a concavity.


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## sawdustsux (Dec 10, 2012)

Agree…it has to be a "true" use-able tool to begin with…
I flatten all my irons, chisels, but I don't over anal-ize it.


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## sawdustsux (Dec 10, 2012)

Getting used to a war on every post.
People (in General), not all want to fight. Ha! I admire the guts, but relax…it's mostly a My shop/Your Shop Opinion, jeez…be cool, 

This is a Forum…a forum of opinions…onions…lettuce, let us be civil!


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## realcowtown_eric (Feb 4, 2013)

Not to argue, but there are applications and there are applications.

Some of which will tolerate a touch of back bevel, and indeed function better with that…
I think of my adzes, where the mere touch of a back bevel allows the "wedge to ease itself up and out, instead of digging in.

The simplistic description of a wedge that steve describes implies that there are equal forces on both sides, but we all know there ain't…maybe a mere 1/10th of a mm on one side, but an inch or two on the other side. The physics of a simple wedge cannot apply without considering the forces directing that force.

OTOH, if yer paring edge banding off of a panel with a 1/32 veneer, yer back better be absolutely flat.

And if you have to pare a 1/4 mm off of a tenon on an expensive antique undergoing repair, you want to be certain that the first chisel you use has the same characteristics of the one you pick up next, and will cut the same. Easiest to do if the back is flat on each and every chisel. OTOH, you might be able to fuss around with variably sharpened chisels trying to find the one that will follow a flat…till you found one that worked.

Besides, when yer sharpening the chisels, how do you figure out how much out of flat the bottom is, so as to take off the wire edge.

I however appreciate and understand where yer coming from steve, some of my carving tools, adzes, and particularly the power carving tools have a deliberate back-bevel (unflattness) to allow them to defect up instead of down….And when I'm rehabbing old tools, sometimes I just do the best I can, and hope for flatness in future rehabs. There is a law of diminishing returns, and sometimes you just have to accept a less than perfect , but perfectly usable result.

Eric in Cowtown.


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## sawdustsux (Dec 10, 2012)

I am simply saying "I" am not SO ANAL about a flat back.
I wish I had the time back for deleting this.
So, I will not watch it no more…have at it.


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## bernwood (Aug 19, 2010)

All my chisels have a flat back - never touch the back except for stropping to get the burrs off. Most of my chisel work involves cutting off tenons to the flat surface or cleaning out dado cuts etc… If I encounter work that needs to be done with a beveled edge, I flip the chisel over and use the beveled side. But whatever you do with your chisels or however you want to sharpen them is OK with me. As the old saying goes… "there's more then one way to skin a cat".


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## planeBill (Oct 21, 2011)

Hell, I just flatten about a 1/4" or so behind the edge and mine work fine. I may stray a bit further but all Im ever really concerned with is just behind the "0" point, call it good..


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## TCCcabinetmaker (Dec 14, 2011)

eh that's just one arguement for worrying about flat… truth is it has to do a bit with sharpening to, a chisel isn't as sharp without a flat line to hone to.


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## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

??

You make a post that you know damn well is going to be controversial…..

*"…So I'm sure this post will ruffle some feathers with flat back worshipers "*

One person 'slightly and politely' disagrees with you…and you snatch up your chisels and stomp off?

*"I wish I had the time back for deleting this. So, I will not watch it no more…have at it."*

Bizarre to say the least…..


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## richardwootton (Jan 17, 2013)

Tony I was thinking the same thing. Looked like someone was hitting the bottle (not to mention any names) when that post came to life! I'm not judging, just blindly speculating…


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## lj61673 (Oct 31, 2011)

Steve, the reason the back of any blade needs to be flat has nothing to do with a "wedge" or "geometry" or arguing.

It has everything to do with sharpness. Two points intersecting cannot produce a sharp edge if one of them is not flat. Simple. It's just a physical fact.

So, while you are certainly entitled to your opinion, know that making statements that refute scientific fact does not constitute "thinking outside the box".

Having said that, do whatever YOU thinks works for YOU. Be safe and enjoy….


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## 8iowa (Feb 7, 2008)

Since it takes two surfaces to make an edge, I flatten and polish the back, but no more than about 3/8 to 1/2 inch. This is also my procedure on plane irons.

Lately, I've been sharpening the bevels at 25 degrees and then applying a slight micro bevel. This makes it easier to quickly "dress up" an edge by hand while I'm working.


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

"Steve, the reason the back of any blade needs to be flat has nothing to do with a "wedge" or "geometry" or arguing.

It has everything to do with sharpness. Two points intersecting cannot produce a sharp edge if one of them is not flat. Simple. It's just a physical fact."

That was always my understanding….it was tied to the sharpness. Same with plane blades.


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## planeBill (Oct 21, 2011)

That's basically what I was saying. It just needs to be flat just behind the edge so you can achieve the theoretical ) 0 radius edge. Take a look at Japanese chisels, there is only a small amount of flat surface in front of the ura and behind the cutting edge.


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## DocK16 (Mar 18, 2007)

Sorry but your premise for a flat back as being a reference for choppin and paring is wrong from the start. Fred and lj have it right it all about sharpness and the meeting of two edges. If your back isn't flat your tool will never be as sharp as it could be. Like Fred said, no argument just fact.


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## realcowtown_eric (Feb 4, 2013)

Maybe I'm not so sorry that I contributed to this thread with my pragmatic contributions.

It's interesting to see what comes out of the woodwork!

lj61673 said…. Two points intersecting cannot produce a sharp edge if one of them is not flat. Simple. It's just a physical fact.

and just where does the physical fact that two points intersect produce a sharp edge (aka known as a line?)

No where in any geometry book that I own do to points intersecting produce a line/edge. Maybe you could point out the basis of that physical fact just to educate me.

and "know that making statements that refute scientific fact does not constitute "thinking outside the box".

"physical fact" has now been replaced with "scientific fact"

I don't understand at all!

But neither of them assertions are qualified with data points or references. andneither dogmatic assertions give any reference to pragmatic experience.

Yes there are needs for dead flat backs
Yes there are needs where a dead flat back is a drawback

This is one case where "two points interesecting" do not make a point, they make a Void which could be easily filled in with experiental data.

Cutting tool geometry ihas long been an evolving field, and while in theory it is simplistic geometry, it is so much more than that. The machinists handbook is full of tables of cutting speeds,lubricants, geometry of cutting tools for different materials, and a whack of info that is eye-opening to those that figure a simple saw blade or chisel geometry is "best"

Fact of the matter is that the more you know, the more you know what you don't know.

Granted you won't get to first base without the geometric knowledge, but then the application, ah the bottom line ..the application, and using your knowledge and experience to achieve that comes into play.
My clients don't pay for my theoretical knowledge, they pay for results. My results come from making it work. Therein is the bottom line.

Richard Feynman, a leading physicist in years gone by, seldom read the current literature-as it simply repeated dogma ad-nauseum.

Grasshopper, it's all in the experience.

Ducking….

Eric in Calgary


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

Eric,

Didn't Richard Feynman say:
"If you think you understand tool sharpening, you don't understand tool sharpening."

Or maybe I'm misremembering and he was just talking about something simpler like quantum mechanics!


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## PurpLev (May 30, 2008)

*Chuck* - I think the fact that you are not sure makes you qualified to understand sharpening!

and no, you don't have to have a flat back when you sharpen - I myself stoop over most of the times when I am sharpening my irons - but I can't stay in that position for a long time.

to the OP - when you say "I" with quotation marks, does it really refer to you? or is that "you"...?


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## sawdustsux (Dec 10, 2012)

You are much more superior Woodworkers than me.
I surrender. ~ weeping…...


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## lj61673 (Oct 31, 2011)

Eric,
Do you think you could have said less if you had used a few more words?

In saying "two points intersecting" the obvious reference was two edges. I didn't think that had to be pointed out. Now I know better. By the way, that IS a physical fact as those two edges are actual tangible "physical" objects.

As for the "scientific fact", that would be a reference to it being proved by actual and trail and error experimentation and measurements. A flat back produces the sharpest straight edge. Period.

If you're still confused maybe a little more reading on the subject and a lot less pontificating might serve you better.


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

What is the point of this discussion? The OP says "I do flatten a 1/2" of the back". That is enough for sharpening purposes and is quick and easy to do. I don't think anyone is arguing against that.

If the point of this is that it is not required to flatten the entire length of the chisel back, I think that most people would agree with that too. I have done some work that was aided by a longer flat portion on the back. In that case, I just used a ruler against the backs of my chisels and choose the flattest one I found.


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## PurpLev (May 30, 2008)

I agree Chuck, I'm not sure what this is all about. I have yet to find anyone that actually flattened the ENTIRE back of the chisel - most if not all people I know just flatten the leading (near the edge) portion of the back. the OP is a bit vague in what it's trying to present.


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## lj61673 (Oct 31, 2011)

I agree, it only has to be flat where it meets the top surface.

I don't think anyone is advocating flattening the entire back.


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## renners (Apr 9, 2010)

There is no point. The OP doesn't get in a sweat flattening chisel backs.

That's nice/Hakuna Matata.


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

Now I see the point and it is a decimal point.


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## sawdustsux (Dec 10, 2012)

Ha. I work 16 hours a day in my shop, I touch-up my chisels on the go. I use DMT duo sharp plus stones…quick and tidy. I flatten, yes I flatten the 1/2" - 1" lead end of my set…yes it's flat. But I don't "worry" about flattening the entire back. I used to use scary, but prefer diamond stones,for longevity of the diamond stone, and the always flatNESS. Some of you are real jerks.

So, say what ya will…and suck my balls Mr. Garrison~

Layta. this thread is dead.


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## renners (Apr 9, 2010)

Well I never…


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## Tbolt (May 2, 2013)

Somebody doesn't play well with others. LMAO


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## realcowtown_eric (Feb 4, 2013)

"hmmm"

-Eric


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

I am not a marketing guy. But I am pretty sure that it is a bad idea to have a link on stevensmasterwoodworks.com labeled "Lumberjocks Proud Member" that points to the LJ home page of this thread's author. That page proudly displays the member's most recent activity on the site.


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## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

I like pie…....


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

Have some pi


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## sawdustsux (Dec 10, 2012)

Thanks for your friendly comments.


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## tomd (Jan 29, 2008)

Some of my best screwdrivers are chisels.


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## realcowtown_eric (Feb 4, 2013)

I know how you feel buddy. I got some friendly comments too!

Eric


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

Back in the LJ Days Of Yore, this was this point in a thread where the subject of Dove Ice Cream Bars was almost certain to arise.


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## renners (Apr 9, 2010)




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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

Ah renners, that surely brings a tear to the eye.


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## lj61673 (Oct 31, 2011)

"I am not a marketing guy. But I am pretty sure that it is a bad idea to have a link on stevensmasterwoodworks.com labeled "Lumberjocks Proud Member" that points to the LJ home page of this thread's author. That page proudly displays the member's most recent activity on the site."

Not the sharpest chisel in the tool box…..obviously


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## PurpLev (May 30, 2008)

someone mentioned PIE?

I'll be bringing the popcorn…

gotta look on the bright side of life sometimes


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## sawdustsux (Dec 10, 2012)

you guys act like children.


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

When I was a child
I caught a fleeting glimpse
Out of the corner of my eye
I turned to look but it was gone
I cannot put my finger on it now
The child is grown
The dream is gone
And I have become
Comfortably numb.


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## realcowtown_eric (Feb 4, 2013)

Pie on the darkside! sounds like more fun for the children! but I pontificate again.

Ah to be a child again and succesfully saw through the support columns of my parents house! Grandpa gave us the saws (still got the box he made), but momma freaked (dad was away in Egypt with UN forces-1958)

Last few days I'm doing exactly that with a sawsall!My shop is a mess, Got a few minutes to clean up a tad, but had to fabricate connections for a device to clean a concrete floor. Within clear site of the power hone (barbarania-another slippery slope)

And if I ever get described as a "children" agin, here or any other place, I'll be happy to take the comment as a compliment, cause the concept of discovery of new things, attitudes, metholdologies/perspectives never ceases to entrance me. Hey, thanks or helping me re-discover my child-like fascination with tools.

Love tools, the slippery slopes they lead me down, and the interesting characters I meet along the way!


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## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

*"Ah to be a child again and successfully saw through the support columns of my parents house! "*

That made me laugh! I got busted by my Mom when I was about 7 or 8 doing my best lumber jack impression.
I got about 2/3rds of the way through a major support post in the basement…with a leather handle Estwing hatchet!

The post is still there as a reminder(new post added)....and I still have the hatchet!


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

This thread is certainly a victory for the minimalists. Who would have ever predicted all these interesting comments on a thread titled "." with OP "."?

Learn the ways of The Dot. Be The Dot. Surrender your adulthood to The Dot. Long live The Dot.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

I had an Aunt Dot when I was younger that I really liked talking to. She had more to say than ".", which probably explains why I liked talking to her.


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

Yeah, it seems like there used to be a lot more women named Dot and Dottie. I miss the Dots.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

There were more ladies names "Agnes" too, but I don't want to stray from the OP…


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

When I was young, my Mom sold Avon (Dig-Dong). She had a customer named Rose Thorn. Another was named Millie Sparks. That was pretty unremarkable until Millie's house was struck by lightning and burned down.


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

Dots rocks.

Connect the dots


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## Rick Dennington (Aug 27, 2009)

My mother's name was Dorothy, but everyone called her Dottie…....I called her honey…...


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

Seeing the great success of this thread, I am considering a series expanding on The Dot. But, I am having troubles deciding if it would be a series covering the English punctuation marks or the elements of Morse Code. My concern with the punctuation series is the inevitable direction of the comments on the ":" episode.


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## PurpLev (May 30, 2008)

I'd be more concerned about people posting off topic stuff like ","


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

ryhmes with sot, spot, trot, hot, jot, rot, blot, cot, pot, got, lot, not, tot and zot…


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## murch (Mar 20, 2011)

The story of dot…


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

You have the link to the end of The Dot.

This works:


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

I'd be more concerned about people posting off topic stuff like ","

I hadn't thought about that. That seems like a serious enough infraction to deserve blockage. Just imagine the horror of a blockage on the ":" thread.


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## renners (Apr 9, 2010)

Even Horizontal Mike is getting in on the action.

http://lumberjocks.com/topics/52090


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## murch (Mar 20, 2011)

Aha. Thanks Chuck.


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