# Can I vent?



## Wood_smith (Feb 12, 2010)

I'm really p.o.'ed.. A lot of you good folks on here have been checking my pouches and my website, giving me great constructive advice. So, if i may let off a little steam…

Last September, I sent Lee Valley Tools (a high-end tool company, similar to Garrett Wade, in fact their websites and catalogs are very similar- http://www.leevalleytools.com ) one of my plywood pouches. Late September they e-mailed me and said they were interested in my products and wanted to discuss price. I replied, saying I was flexible and gave a couple of phone numbers, etc.

I never heard back until almost mid-November. Now they decided they aren't interested anymore, thank you for your time, blah, blah.

Today I get their latest monthly catalog in the mail and I see they're selling a "Cargo Liner" for putting in the back of a car or truck, to carry soil, plants, compost, etc. It's made of heavy silver woven poly (hmm, sounds familiar).

Okay, maybe it's not identical to a Kerry-All Pouch, but it's awfully coincidental. I'll post a picture of it in my projects (with proper credit to the photo source, of course.).

Anyway, thanks, I just wanted to get this off my chest…


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## manumurf (Mar 4, 2010)

Unless you are protected by a patent, don't be sending stuff to a vendor or maufacturer. You'll get ripped off. Even if you have it patented, *you* have to go after *them*, which costs big bucks in legal fees. Don't give away ideas.

Except of course on the Lumberjocks site.

You might get back in touch and tell them you noticed the similarity between your submital and their product to let them know you are aware of it and may take future action. If it takes off, product wise, you may be able to leverage something out of them.


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

IIRC, most of what you make is protected by copyright, to some extent. I think that if you were to sue, and could show dramatic similarity in the two products, you might have a shot. Guess you could buy one and make the comparisons. Even with patents, there are all kinds of weasel-arounds. I had a friend with over four dozen patents to his name, all chemicals. Competitors would change the formulation just enough to have a distinct product and evade the patent suit while getting the performance. Pretty frustrating.


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## Wood_smith (Feb 12, 2010)

Good points.. a step learning curve I'm on. At least mine is made in Canada, and since they always say that in their catalog, their product is probably made in China.
Like my website says: Buy North American!


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Sorry about that, it makes me feel differently about lee valley products when they have done something like that.


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## russv (Sep 21, 2009)

i don't get it. 
they make a liner to protect the inside of the vehicle (or bed of the truck), you make pouches to protect products from the weather. where is the similarity (besides color)?

russv


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

It should be quite obvious to the most casual observer. I like to do business with honest ethical companies and people. Too bad they are getting almost impossible to find. I agree with Jim, if that is the way Lee Valley has to make it in this world, they can make it without me. Not that they'll miss the few $$ I spend there.


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## skywalker01 (May 19, 2009)

You should watch a movie called flash of genius that came out two years ago. It's very helpful and let me know how things could work if you don't watch yourself. It's a dog eat dog world to some people and it sucks that it's that way. If I were them I would have just consulted with you on making the item and been okay with the smaller portion of the profits the way they are with all their other tools. Greed. Of course the story here is so vague you never know what could have happened. It looks really suspicious for sure. The guy in the movie has to actually go to the trouble to show how his idea gets stolen. It's quite sad how the judicial system works out sometimes when the answer seems to be right in front of your nose, but without it there would be great many atrocities. Sorry man.


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## Wintersedge (Apr 5, 2010)

That is sad.. Lee Valley prides themselves on their innovative tools.

I would contact their legal department.. maybe it was just one smuck there who tried to pawn your idea off as their own. If not, shame them into fixing this.

Btw, very slick idea on the pouch. Have you thought about going to the RD departments at Lowes, HD, and Menards?


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## OutPutter (Jun 23, 2007)

Hi Lloyd. I saw your other post but this adds a new twist. I don't have a lot of experience in plastics but I do have some experience in consumer goods. I'm guessing that the turnaround on a new product like the Lee Valley bed liner is going to be in the the 12-18 month range. Even if there was a huge rush job done on it, you would still need to subtract at least two months from the date you got your catalog for the turnaround on the printing and delivery of the catalog. That leaves a window for them from September to around February or about five months. That's pretty quick for anything let alone something that complex especially in a large organization like Lee Valley. I hope you don't take this the wrong way but I'm going to suggest that the person from Lee Valley was really telling you that because they had something similar in the pipeline, they weren't interested in your pouch.

I still think they'll soon loose interest in their product and you will be able to make whatever you want out of yours.

Best of luck,


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## 308Gap (Mar 6, 2010)

I only saw a liner for an suv which is a plain tarp and not big enough to cover plywood. Yours is a pocket for wood. Am I missing something. It looks like different products. But the pouch is missing headrest hooks….....oh wait I dont have headrest in the bed. The pouch is a better design for lumber and sheet goods.


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## BOB67CAM (Dec 28, 2009)

ive been talking about this stuff with a buddy who has dealt with the same basic issue with cabelas, its damn sad that they cant play nice, im not 1 to bitch about a company making profits, but i can gladly bitch when theyre screwing the one who came up with the idea..its just extremely poor ethics…


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## FatherHooligan (Mar 27, 2008)

Didn't Lee Valley have this product in their catalogue a while ago? Seems to me I have been seeing that cargo bed liner for a couple of years now, I know Canadian Tire had one a couple of years ago, I got a smaller version for a Christmas present. Princess Auto has had cargo bed liners as well…I don't think this is a particularily new idea, Lee Valley is just selling one of the many that are out there. I'm not real happy that I have to strongly disagree with a fellow Lumberjock but I think LV is one of the 'good guys' and we shouldn't be judging them to be 'unethical' based on a single instance. Kerry I notice your website is copyrighted 2010, I do not know how long you have been selling these pouches for but I suspect you are not the first out there. I am in no way saying you don't have a great product, I am sure you do, I am just saying I don't think you were the first to manufacture a poly bed liner.

We winge that there are no ethical companies left but when we suspect a company is being unethical we should also be prepared to make sure that we judge a company we give them a fair chance to represent their side. I have asked Lee Valley to comment on this discussion, we will see what happens.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I just ran across one of their catalogs from 2009. It said gift catalog, it wasn't in there, but neither were a lot of their other items.


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## cranbrook2 (May 28, 2006)

I agree with Mark 100 %


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## blyther (Nov 19, 2009)

I own a patented item and before I share it with anyone they have to sign a confidential agreement. This is not 100% safe but shows intent on your side and go a long way in court. Knock-offs are commonplace but if your not protecting your invention you will get hosed. 
I do agree with Mark as well.


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## PurpLev (May 30, 2008)

that sucks, but when I bought my BMW in 2006 - BMW offered a similar cargo liner product, as did other MFGs. so the idea is not new (liner)

I guess LV was just looking around and found a product that allowed them to reach a larger market share. as they say 'nothing personal , this is purely business'.

Still I feel your pain - it sucks feeling that way.


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## reggiek (Jun 12, 2009)

Ideas are very easy to steal. Not to offend some of our Asian LJ's but there has been alot of copyright and patent infringement from China and Korea..and various others. They perhaps have a different interpretation of how an inventor should be compensated? Most companies now a days will not send anything confidential to these countries, unless they have full control….With the lack of manufacturing here in the USA…ideas and technology is our bread and butter….With that said I would be very careful sending any thing to a vendor unsolicitated other then perhaps a brochure that does not give any structural or construction information. I have heard of several folks having the same problem as you do here….it is easy to outsource a good idea to an offshore company that does not "recognize" the patent owner and the rights to their invention and then sell it here at a good price….It would be hard to go after the infringer when they are in a foreign country.


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## donbee (Feb 7, 2009)

I have to insert the knowledge I gained from being a member of the board of directors for an inventors' association. 
US patents do not protect your products outside the country. An International Patent is needed for that.

Copyright pertains to works of authorship, books, pamphlets, photos, paintings, music and such. Merely authoring such a work confers copy rights. Additional rights may be protected by getting a certificate of copyright.

Getting a patent is excruciatingly painful and expensive. I have stopped attempting to secure patents because they very rarely bring profits. Most patent holders, the statistical majority, never make a profit from their invention. Large companies with deep pockets and the will to steal may do so with inpunity. Their legal staff (which most of us do not have) can tie the inventor in knots of red tape and expensive filing fees until the inventor has nothing left with which to fight.

If an inventor truly wants to see a profit from an idea, he must first research to see if there has EVER been another idea like his in the public forum, whether patented or not, whether manufactured or not. The word NOVELTY is the primary idea in securing a patent. If the idea has ever been used or known, there will be no patent without a very expensive legal battle.

Nevertheless, the inventor must keep his idea secret until he has a patent. Otherwise, if the cat gets out of the bag, so to speak, it becomes public knowledge and CANNOT be patented in the US under current law.

Even if it is "Patent Pending" it must be protected because the patent may not be awarded and need more research and legal fighting.

Lawyers are expensive, but probably necessary. Its a difficult, uphill battle.

d


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## RobLee (May 19, 2009)

Thanks for all the comments - I find it quite disappointing that so many of you are willing to think the worst of a company - without bothering to acquaint yourselves with the facts.

The cargo liner Mr Kerry is so upset about was first catalogued in February of 2008 (our order was placed in December of 2007). Mr Kerry contacted us with his "invention" in August of 2009.

I certainly hope he's big enough to apologise here, as well as on his blog.

Robin Lee
President 
Lee Valley Tools Ltd.


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## beatlefan (Dec 1, 2009)

Well that sheds a whole new light on the subject ? thanks Mr. Lee-


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## Wood_smith (Feb 12, 2010)

Mr. Lee,
I am big enough to apologize (it's spelled with a 'z' in Canada, not an 's'). I am wrong, as you say your company did sell them in 2008. If you look at your customer records, you will see that I have been a customer of Lee Valley Tools for over 30 years, (my customer number is 4 digits, you must be in the millions by now).
I'm sorry I jumped to conclusions, but if you look at all the comments on this forum, some have agreed with me that it seemed more than a bit of a coincidence. I've been getting Lee Valley catalogues for over 30 years and don't remember seeing the cargo liner until yesterday.

And as I believe your product director told me in an e-mail earlier today, your product is made offshore. My Kerry-All Pouches are made in Canada by Canadians and used woven polyethylene at least partially constructed with recycled plastic.

I will also print a correction on my blog. As I said originally here, I was surprised when your company said you were interested in my products, then declined with no real explanation, so I was venting my frustration.
These forums are an excellent way for democracy to work, and as you have shown, both sides can have their say.
For the information of all who read this, I have enjoyed using Lee Valley tools for said 30 years and I intend to keep being one of their oldest customers.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

I recall a neighbor who was in an expensive battle for years over somebody's infringement of 'his' belt-mounted golf-ball holder. The imitator's design held 4, the neighbor's only 3. Truly ponderous!
Then there's that problem with Lee Valley…I wish they'd make up their mind whether they want to be high-end or not. Those products like the *finger wrench *and* painter's pyramids *belong in a dopey Lillian Vernon catalog or Spencer's Gifts rather than an upscale catalog for serious woodworkers. JMO.


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## SCOTSMAN (Aug 1, 2008)

I am afraid when it comes to *money * there are few ethical companies -people left.This is not new in fact it happens all the time .I am truly sorry for your hard work being lost but there we have it.Alistair


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## marcb (May 5, 2008)

*I am big enough to apologize (it's spelled with a 'z' in Canada, not an 's'). *

Both the OED and the OAD list both spellings as appropriate.

So not only are you wrong, you sound overly pretentious while doing it.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Sorry, I jumped the gun and came to the wrong conclusion.

However, it is too bad the rejection was not a bit more specific. This subject came up a few weeks go without any clarification.

BTW guys, "s" & "z" are adjacent keys on the keyboard. Are we a spelling/ typo forum or WW??


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## Wood_smith (Feb 12, 2010)

gud pointe, topamax.. eye bough to yur grater wisdom! ;-)


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## marcb (May 5, 2008)

Also, please don't sue when I sew a tarp that I own into a specific shape in the near future.


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## Wood_smith (Feb 12, 2010)

I promise I won't unless you call it a Kerry-All Pouch.sheesh, lighten up.


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