# Esssh ... Another CNC Recommendation



## redham

I have a restaurateur client who is pushing me to get a CNC to replicate decorative wooden mask. I have no idea what that would entail.

Here is a criteria that I am working with:

- Never worked with CNC's before so i would need a software package that would account for this
- I do not have a formal engineering background
- Budget on $5K- $15K 
- Prefer to have one with capacity where it can take 4' ply if necessary. So 4'x5' or 4'x6'
- Vetric seem to be the go to software from what I have read
- Do I need any other sofware to produce 3d 2' decorative mask?

The output for this project should take care of the majority of the cost of the machine alone, but I want to have a back door option to sell if off if it sits idle.

Taking a close look at:

Shopbot
Laguna

Are there any other brand in the class I need to take a close look it? Willing to self assemble to save to the $400-500 freight cost of these machines.


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## John Smith_inFL

> I have a restaurateur client who is pushing me to get a CNC to replicate decorative wooden mask.
> - redham


I don't understand the reasoning behind this:
are you looking to purchase a CNC to satisfy one client for a one off project ?

a CNC is not just buy it and push the start button.
yes, there is a TREMENDOUS learning curve. yes, there is a very complex proprietary software package
you must have for each machine.

there are probably some carvers here that could carve the mask if you wanted to outsource it.
can you post a sketch or drawing of the mask in question ?

do you operate a woodworking business now ?
a major investment into a such a complex system such as a CNC is something that would be
beneficial to your shop and business. not just because some restaurant owner is putting pressure
on you to buy one just to do his project.
for your first introduction into the cost of producing a CNC project, I would suggest you 
go to a sign shop that has a CNC and have them quote it out for you.

.

.


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## stevepeterson

It does not seem feasible to buy a CNC machine for one project. I suggest looking for a shop with a CNC near you that is willing to do the work.


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## sawdustjunkie

I agree with finding someone to outsource the work for you. Even at $15,000 it would be hard to find a cnc that can do 4'x5' or 4'x6'. I have a friend that has a Legacy and his is 4'x8' and it was almost $35,000.
Legacy, Shop Sabre, CAMaster are some of the machines that are made that big, but the price is big as well.
I have a Axiom 24"x24" and it cost $6,000. They do make a 4×4 for just over $11,000 for a basic machine. An Elite is over $13,000 but still a 4'x4'.


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## Mike_D_S

The software portion of the CNC is probably the biggest place people underestimate the learning curve.

Generating a custom 3D model to replicate an existing item is a non-trivial exercise and I believe you would need Vectric Aspire to do the modeling. My gut feel is that assuming you have zero experience doing 3d modeling you'e looking at 100+ hours of self training go be ready to make the first test cut on that mask.

I don't want to turn anyone off of CNC as it can be a great hobby, but the learning curve is real and creating custom 3D models is one of the more complex things to do.

If this mask is what you want to do, my suggestion is you start by buying Aspire and teach yourself how to do the 3D model work. You'll spend $2k on the software. If you like it and go forward, you would have spent the $2k anyway. If you decide its not for you, you can sell the Aspire license to recover some of your investment (Vectric allows one transfer of the license to a new owner I believe for a small fee).

Buying a full CNC setup and then figuring out it's not what you thought is a good way to lose $5k or more very quickly.

mike


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## logboy73

Go ahead and tack on another grand to the price for destroyed bits and ruined material as you learn how to use it.


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## JAAune

I'd be skeptical of the Laguna unless you're a skilled CNC tech as their customer service record seems spotty. You might get stuck doing your own product support after spending 10's of thousands. Shopbot has a stellar track record and I've always heard positive things from the people that own those machines.

If you're very patient and can handle long lead times, Carl Bruce builds nice custom machines at much lower prices than any of the reputable CNC manufacturers.

If you're near the Chicago area then you might consider visiting and checking out the 4×8 machine I'm selling. It's a homemade machine but it's well-documented, easy to maintain and very capable. It's slower than a Camaster, Shop Sabre or Shop Bot but it's less than half the cost of a 4×8 ShopBot and runs on a standard 20 amp 110 outlet. I used V-Carve to run it (and BobCad but I don't recommend that for newcomers). All of the work on my website was done with this machine (haven't posted pictures since getting the new machines).

I'm only selling it because I acquired a 5×8 AXYZ and a custom ATC machine and don't have room for three CNC's.

CNC for sale

Getting back on topic, if you're just doing one model, it's probably best to create the 3D object in modeling clay then send that out to a 3D scanning company. Learning 3D modeling is time-consuming and the software is expensive.


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## dannelson

PM sent Im interested if your considering outsourcing. Dan


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## Desert_Woodworker

> The software portion of the CNC is probably the biggest place people underestimate the learning curve.
> 
> Generating a custom 3D model to replicate an existing item is a non-trivial exercise and I believe you would need Vectric Aspire to do the modeling. My gut feel is that assuming you have zero experience doing 3d modeling you e looking at 100+ hours of self training go be ready to make the first test cut on that mask.
> 
> I don t want to turn anyone off of CNC as it can be a great hobby, but the learning curve is real and creating custom 3D models is one of the more complex things to do.
> 
> If this mask is what you want to do, my suggestion is you start by buying Aspire and teach yourself how to do the 3D model work. You ll spend $2k on the software. If you like it and go forward, you would have spent the $2k anyway. If you decide its not for you, you can sell the Aspire license to recover some of your investment (Vectric allows one transfer of the license to a new owner I believe for a small fee).
> 
> Buying a full CNC setup and then figuring out it s not what you thought is a good way to lose $5k or more very quickly.
> 
> mike
> 
> - MikeDS


+1


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## Desert_Woodworker

Laguna is a reputable company. I have experience with the company, my CNC machine, and their customer service, since 2012. 5 Stars for the Laguna CNC and Aspire 9.5


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## Desert_Woodworker

> I d be skeptical of the Laguna unless you re a skilled CNC tech as their customer service record seems spotty. You might get stuck doing your own product support after spending 10 s of thousands. Shopbot has a stellar track record and I ve always heard positive things from the people that own those machines.
> 
> If you re very patient and can handle long lead times, Carl Bruce builds nice custom machines at much lower prices than any of the reputable CNC manufacturers.
> 
> If you re near the Chicago area then you might consider visiting and checking out the 4×8 machine I m selling. It s a homemade machine but it s well-documented, easy to maintain and very capable. It s slower than a Camaster, Shop Sabre or Shop Bot but it s less than half the cost of a 4×8 ShopBot and runs on a standard 20 amp 110 outlet. I used V-Carve to run it (and BobCad but I don t recommend that for newcomers). All of the work on my website was done with this machine (haven t posted pictures since getting the new machines).
> 
> I m only selling it because I acquired a 5×8 AXYZ and a custom ATC machine and don t have room for three CNC s.
> 
> CNC for sale
> 
> Getting back on topic, if you re just doing one model, it s probably best to create the 3D object in modeling clay then send that out to a 3D scanning company. Learning 3D modeling is time-consuming and the software is expensive.
> 
> - JAAune


OMG! To vilify Laguna and ante up on ShopBot. without explaining why? Then you drift to selling your CNC.
Nothing surprises me here anymore…


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## logboy73

Laguna has a reputation for poor customer service with their CNC routers. I have a customer who bought one and it wouldn't work right from the get go because they didn't test it before they shipped it. Turns out some of the wiring was hooked up backwards. It took two months before he had it running. They don't like to pick up the phone or return calls for tech support.


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## therealSteveN

> The software portion of the CNC is probably the biggest place people underestimate the learning curve.
> 
> Generating a custom 3D model to replicate an existing item is a non-trivial exercise and I believe you would need Vectric Aspire to do the modeling. My gut feel is that assuming you have zero experience doing 3d modeling you e looking at 100+ hours of self training go be ready to make the first test cut on that mask.
> 
> mike
> 
> - MikeDS


I recently had an urge to get into the CNC game myself. Luckily for me the local WoodCraft has a group that meets there one night a month, and I went, just to take a peek.

What I learned in just a few hours was illuminating, and it saved me a few thousand bux.

1) I can get anything done that I ever thiught the CNC would make for me, for just a few bux over the cost of the wood. Reason, so many with a CNC dying for work to do.

2) Before I went the WoodCraft guy who heads up the group suggested that yes, Vectric Aspire was a real good place to start software wise, he even suggested I go to their website to download a "TRIAL COPY" of the software, which won't save any work, but it allows you to trial ANY project you might want to do. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA yeah right….

a) The chick that is "the voice" of the software is British. Now I don't have a thing against the Brits, but they speak differently than we do in the Stix, and they use different words than we do as well. So I couldn't understand 95% of what she was saying on the first pass…......... I was just trying to figure out how to unload the training package….. 4 hours later I still was.

b) What she was telling me that was going to happen, be there, or anything, WASN'T.

I worked with computers for the last 8 years of my working days. I trained others to use the software we used. I consider myself to be higher than average in use of computers.

I've had 4 projects done by a really nice guy trying to pay for his $22,000.00 CNC in the past few weeks. Peanutz to have it done.

That is everything I can tell you about owning a CNC. I quoted Mike above because he isn't telling a tale, His word is Gospel.


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## redham

Thank you all for commenting. I have a very busy weekend. Let me clarify on my original post. My primary business is contracting. A CNC would broaden my capabilities and do repeatable custom cutting for numerous applications.

I am making capital expenditure for equipment which will have a guaranteed revenue stream. I am not buying a machine just to satisfy one client to produce one run. Rather, this is an opportunity for me to acquire equipment that would enhance my business that I would otherwise not consider in investing because of the capital outlay.

Here are a few conditions that are taken into consideration:

- Access to a CNC is at a premium in my area becuase of this real estate it takes up and the overhead of said real estate.

- Access CNC's are at a much higher premium than access to Engineers, designers and Draftsman

- I realize that there is a learning curve that I will have to dedicate time to really take advantage of the machine

- As a business I can on a part-time basis, bring in someone to run this job for a quick ramp up and/or trade time on the CNC for drafting services

- If I can, I will try to put some money into the pocket of guy who lost his job from plant closing

- Most sign business in my area will charge a premium for this type of project becuase it would take time away from their main turn key business

Size:
There is no way I can fit a 4×8 machine without getting more real estate. I could squeeze in a 4×6 or a 4×5 at the most but I realize that 4×5 and 4×6 is not a typical size. So I will to consider other Desktop sizes.

Software:
I am certainly not discounting the learning curve for engineering software. I stated that I dont have a formal engineering back ground, but that doesn't mean devoid of any design programs knowledge. Vextric Aspire seems to be the standard quality software from what I have read.

Hardware:
Shopbot seems to have a comprehensive website and is commented on several times by members of this forum. Laguna, from my perspective, has always had premium equipment but at very high premium price-tag. There seems to be a some debate about their customer service. In my book, if your charging a premium, your CS should be spot on all the time.

Any recommendations as far as CNC Hardware goes would be appreciated.


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## ArtMann

This post says more to me about the person writing it than it does about the advisability of buying a CNC router or the attributes of Vectric software..


> I recently had an urge to get into the CNC game myself. Luckily for me the local WoodCraft has a group that meets there one night a month, and I went, just to take a peek.
> 
> What I learned in just a few hours was illuminating, and it saved me a few thousand bux.
> 
> 1) I can get anything done that I ever thiught the CNC would make for me, for just a few bux over the cost of the wood. Reason, so many with a CNC dying for work to do.
> 
> Yes. A CNC router may not be the right tool for people who don't have a good imagination.
> 
> 2) Before I went the WoodCraft guy who heads up the group suggested that yes, Vectric Aspire was a real good place to start software wise, he even suggested I go to their website to download a "TRIAL COPY" of the software, which won t save any work, but it allows you to trial ANY project you might want to do. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA yeah right….
> 
> I learned the basics of using Vectric Vcarve with a trial version during the month before my machine was delivered. Someone who doesn't find the fully functional trial software useful is either uninterested or perhaps unable to understand it.
> 
> a) The chick that is "the voice" of the software is British. Now I don t have a thing against the Brits, but they speak differently than we do in the Stix, and they use different words than we do as well. So I couldn t understand 95% of what she was saying on the first pass…......... I was just trying to figure out how to unload the training package….. 4 hours later I still was.
> 
> Wow! I don't know that I would admit to being unable to understand English.
> 
> b) What she was telling me that was going to happen, be there, or anything, WASN T.
> 
> Refer to above comment
> 
> I worked with computers for the last 8 years of my working days. I trained others to use the software we used. I consider myself to be higher than average in use of computers.
> 
> I ve had 4 projects done by a really nice guy trying to pay for his $22,000.00 CNC in the past few weeks. Peanutz to have it done.
> 
> That is everything I can tell you about owning a CNC. I quoted Mike above because he isn t telling a tale, His word is Gospel.
> 
> - therealSteveN


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## Desert_Woodworker

SteveN come on man give us a screenshot on what you can do- here is one -less than a minute








as for for your thoughts on Vetric- Bupkis


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## Ladislav

I recently purchased 4×8 cnc , i was looking at laguna swift for around 24 k with vacuum table but found one 3 years old China cnc and got it, I realized that it is basically just like laguna imo,, even when i was learning to operate the controler i looked up laguna and it was exactly same like my cnc , maybe im wrong but this is just my opinion, anyway i would suggest you go for 4×8 because than you can cut full sheets for your other jobs and get the most out of your investment, learning is not as bad as I thought i made my company sign in first day , so to start cutting and make some simple designs it should be easy , and with time i hope i can start on some more difficult projects, currently im using vcarve and i feel that i will be getting mozaik. Overall i belive it was good investment and I definitely can see this machine pay for it self and more , if you have opportunity to get it and also have enough jobs coming than i would definitely get it , but 4×8 table is probably size you should go with .


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## BlueRidgeDog

Get a quote to outsource the job, add 20%. Move on.


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## Mike_D_S

Redham,

It would be more helpful if you can give us an idea of what types of items you either do now that you would like to move to the CNC or what types of items you think you could branch into with the CNC. This matters on the size as you take pretty serious efficiency hits on some items depending on the size of CNC machine you choose and the features.

If you eliminate a 4'x8' size, then the next step down is 4'x4' normally which might actually have a slightly larger working area (some are 56"x49" ish). But if you are not going to do cabinet work, then you really could probably move down to 2'x4' for signs, inlay, 3D relief carving, etc.

If you want to do joinery (dovetails, finger joints, etc) with the CNC, you'll maybe need to look at one that can do vertical jigging. Additionally, for maximum efficiency you may want automatic tool change capabilities (or have the ability to upgrade to it later).

Don't forget that in addition to the purchase price, CNCs do have a per hour cost to run as well for bit wear, maintenance, operator time, etc. There is additional set and cost for jigging for two sided work, vacuum versus manual hold downs, etc.

So do you think you're going to be doing signs, cabinet (boxes, doors, both), carving, 3D work, leg spindles, etc?

It's hard to recommend hardware without having a better idea of what you want to do. From a value perspective, there is a tradeoff between size, speed, accuracy, power, etc that needs to be balanced.

Mike


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## Desert_Woodworker

good nite


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## Desert_Woodworker

> Get a quote to outsource the job, add 20%. Move on.
> 
> - BlueRidgeDog


+1 and welcome to LJ


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## Desert_Woodworker

> Redham,
> 
> It would be more helpful if you can give us an idea of what types of items you either do now that you would like to move to the CNC or what types of items you think you could branch into with the CNC. This matters on the size as you take pretty serious efficiency hits on some items depending on the size of CNC machine you choose and the features.
> 
> If you eliminate a 4×8 size, then the next step down is 4×4 normally which might actually have a slightly larger working area (some are 56"x49" ish). But if you are not going to do cabinet work, then you really could probably move down to 2×4 for signs, inlay, 3D relief carving, etc.
> 
> If you want to do joinery (dovetails, finger joints, etc) with the CNC, you ll maybe need to look at one that can do vertical jigging. Additionally, for maximum efficiency you may want automatic tool change capabilities (or have the ability to upgrade to it later).
> 
> Don t forget that in addition to the purchase price, CNCs do have a per hour cost to run as well for bit wear, maintenance, operator time, etc. There is additional set and cost for jigging for two sided work, vacuum versus manual hold downs, etc.
> 
> So do you think you re going to be doing signs, cabinet (boxes, doors, both), carving, 3D work, leg spindles, etc?
> 
> It s hard to recommend hardware without having a better idea of what you want to do. From a value perspective, there is a tradeoff between size, speed, accuracy, power, etc that needs to be balanced.
> 
> Mike
> 
> - MikeDS


+1


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## ArtMann

I learned a new word!--> bupkis (uncountable) Absolutely nothing; nothing of value, significance, or substance. We searched for hours and found bupkis.


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## redham

Mike,

Thank your for your helpful comments. The primary project would are Kabuki masks. Various sizes. Largest would be 24 in height. I dont really need a width capacity of 4" on this job obviously but I want the option to run 4' sheets for other possible projects.

A 4×8 would have too much of a foot print for me right now. I don't plan on using the CNC for cabinet work. Pricing from imports have pretty much taken over that market in my area. Plus I can and have built a full set of cabinets (frames of course) in one day. As far as joinery, I have a Incra system, P/C dovetail jig and of course my domino system. I do see the bulk of the work to be engraving, signage, character profile cut outs, custom design panels and logo engraving. Using a CNC to produce cookie cutter stuff probably wouldn't be enough to justify the cost and upramp of a CNC.

As far as speed, I don't that will be a priority for me as this CNC is not part of my core business.

I just found out that one of my set design clients sources out about $20k a year in CNC work. I will be able to acquire that business as well.



> Redham,
> 
> It would be more helpful if you can give us an idea of what types of items you either do now that you would like to move to the CNC or what types of items you think you could branch into with the CNC. This matters on the size as you take pretty serious efficiency hits on some items depending on the size of CNC machine you choose and the features.
> 
> If you eliminate a 4×8 size, then the next step down is 4×4 normally which might actually have a slightly larger working area (some are 56"x49" ish). But if you are not going to do cabinet work, then you really could probably move down to 2×4 for signs, inlay, 3D relief carving, etc.
> 
> If you want to do joinery (dovetails, finger joints, etc) with the CNC, you ll maybe need to look at one that can do vertical jigging. Additionally, for maximum efficiency you may want automatic tool change capabilities (or have the ability to upgrade to it later).
> 
> Don t forget that in addition to the purchase price, CNCs do have a per hour cost to run as well for bit wear, maintenance, operator time, etc. There is additional set and cost for jigging for two sided work, vacuum versus manual hold downs, etc.
> 
> So do you think you re going to be doing signs, cabinet (boxes, doors, both), carving, 3D work, leg spindles, etc?
> 
> It s hard to recommend hardware without having a better idea of what you want to do. From a value perspective, there is a tradeoff between size, speed, accuracy, power, etc that needs to be balanced.
> 
> Mike
> 
> - MikeDS


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## joebob1611

At the risk of being ridiculed, don't discount the Chinese machines. There are quite a few that are very good, and can be had for much less. There is a FB group called CNC Router Tips that contains a wealth of info on those machines. Personally, I built my own from plans from Joe's CNC. The design is nice because you can scale it to pretty much any size you want. You also mentioned that you're willing to assemble one. In that case, take a look at the CNCRouterParts machines. Very capable and in your price range, along with excellent customer service.

As far as software, Vectric is the standard for ease of use. For me, it was MUCH easier than anything else I tried. The user interface just makes sense. It may not be as capable as some of the more expensive packages, but it is more than capable of doing what you want to do. You will also need motion control software to actually run the machine if you don't get one with a dedicated controller. Mach 3 is the most popular, but there are other options that work just as well or better.


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## Mike_D_S

I think you're not going to find very many people who'll have experience with multiple different machines at this price point / size. Smaller hobby ones will be more common for DIY guys and larger ones for pros and industry. So I think you're going to have do some homework on CNCzone and a few of the other sites talking to people who have the machine makes you're interested it.

If I was going to suggest one, I'd probably recommend looking at the Shopbot PRSstandard 4×4. I've talked to a couple of guys with smaller shopbots who really like them and they have a generally good reputation.

If you are really going to use it as part of a business then kits and generic/clone imports would not be on my list. While both of those can save money up front, if you're doing jobs for customers with delivery deadlines, then in my opinion you need a machine that you can get timely support for if you have trouble.

Get a good one from a reputable maker and treat it like any other capital investment, buy right and cry once.


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## Desert_Woodworker

> At the risk of being ridiculed, don t discount the Chinese machines. There are quite a few that are very good, and can be had for much less. There is a FB group called CNC Router Tips that contains a wealth of info on those machines. Personally, I built my own from plans from Joe s CNC. The design is nice because you can scale it to pretty much any size you want. You also mentioned that you re willing to assemble one. In that case, take a look at the CNCRouterParts machines. Very capable and in your price range, along with excellent customer service.
> 
> As far as software, Vectric is the standard for ease of use. For me, it was MUCH easier than anything else I tried. The user interface just makes sense. It may not be as capable as some of the more expensive packages, but it is more than capable of doing what you want to do. You will also need motion control software to actually run the machine if you don t get one with a dedicated controller. Mach 3 is the most popular, but there are other options that work just as well or better.
> 
> - Joe Andrews


+1


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## redham

Mike, 
After taking a look at some of the size options out there, I had a feeling that i would run into the size issue. Either big or small barbell. I did have a chance to bid on a Thermwood machine at a really good price, it would have been too big and costly to upstart. I will check out the CNCZone as well.

Joe,
Are you the Joe in Joe's CNC? Just looking for fair disclosure. I am definitely looking to self builds although it will have a lesser resell value if I decide back door it.

I will looking into the import brands as well. My first thought is stay away from them because there will already be a learning curve with the software. I would not want a part to break and have to wait 6 weeks for a replacement. Grizzly took about 4 months to get me a part and their a big operation.


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## JAAune

Avoiding expensive parts and downtime was a big reason I went the Marc Adams School DIY route the first time. Learning how the machines work, knowing the schematics and getting experience with multimeter based troubleshooting paid off big time. Two of my CNC's (one DIY and the other an old AXYZ) had two breakdowns each over a four year period and in all cases I was able to track down the issue within a few hours. Once it was a $1 part, a second time a $4 part, once a $25 part and the most expensive was a $120 stepper drive. All of the parts were readily available from common suppliers like Mouser or Automation Direct.

The CNC Router Parts pro model is a well-designed machine. That's what they've started using for the Marc Adams class the last time I was there. But they use a different electrical box designed by the instructor rather than the CNC Router Parts box.

I did make a post awhile back about one of those breakdown incidents. It's a decent overview on CNC troubleshooting.

CNC control Diagnostics


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