# Hand cut dovetails--faster, cleaner, more precise. What's not to like?



## CharlesA

Interesting to hear your experience. Where did you buy it and how much did you pay? All I see is the UK website.


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## JayT

Charles, I just emailed him asking for a price quote including shipping and had a response in less than an hour at current exchange rates-all of his products ship from his shop the UK. Since I just got one quote for both products + shipping, I don't know exactly how much was charged for each. You could use an online currency conversion calculator to come up with a ballpark idea-at the time I bought it, the price was about the same as the Veritas dovetail guide.


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## Reedo

I love the Barron jig too and he was a joy to deal with. I can't believe how quickly this jig improved both the quality and speed of dovetail cutting. 5 stars to David Barron and his jig!

Jim


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## mochoa

Those are some pristine DT's! Thanks for the review.


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## Woodenwizard

What is the minimum plate depth needed for 3/4" stock?


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## JayT

John, the saw I'm using has a 2" depth of cut and I need to stop a whisker short of hitting the guide with the saw back on 3/4" stock. My dozuki doesn't have quite as much depth, but was able to get a deep enough cut started (~1/2in) to be able to finish straight without the guide.


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## mafe

Looks good, crisp tails.
Best thoughts,
Mads


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## CharlesA

From the website, the guides are £29 ($50) plus shipping.


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## mafe

Alternative: http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=41718&cat=1,42884,41718


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## CharlesA

I found a thread on another forum where some thought the Veritas guide was klunky, others not so much. The magnetic aspect to the one in this review is interesting to me in that it is magnetic, keeping the saw right against the guide. Anyone use the Veritas?

*Whoops. Just realized the Veritas has magnets as well. *


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## JayT

There are several reviews for the Veritas here on LJ.

http://lumberjocks.com/reviews/1516

http://lumberjocks.com/reviews/3756

http://lumberjocks.com/reviews/3702

Both work on the same principles, I just preferred the simplicity of Barron's design without the clamp thing. Plus the Veritas is only available in 1:6, 1:8 and 1:4 ratios.


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## mafe

;-)


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## 33706

Thanks, JayT!
I gotta get me one of these!


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## lj61673

*What is the minimum plate depth needed for 3/4" stock?*

1-5/8" which happens to be the exact depth of my LN dovetail saw.

It's really not an issue though because you can just remove the jig at the end of the cut for more clearance. Also helps you see the base line better.


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## NormG

Thank you for the review, if it works why not use it


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## BigRedKnothead

I'm glad you did a review on this Jay. I credit David Barron and his process with my recent success in dovetails. And as I've posted, I elected to make my own guide:








-
Really just some scrap and some 3/4" rare earth magnets. It works pretty well. David Barron elaborates on his guides here:
http://www.woodworkersinstitute.com/page.asp?p=1458

So obviously a guy can make his own. I still may buy one of Barron's guide one day because they look well made and I like this technique so much.

I agree this process save a lot of time and marking. And I don't consider it any more "cheating" than I consider a mitre box…or anything else that aids your cut.

Last, the spine of my LN dovetail saw makes contact with the guide about 1/2" into the cut. But this doesn't bother me. My cut as been well established by then. I pull the guide aside and finish the cut. I can see the baseline better this way.

Cheers, Jay…this has been a fun little revelation for us. I've been going dovetail crazy lately.


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## donwilwol

Well written review JayT.


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## mafe

This is for cutting dovetails with a guide, that's it!
There are no cheating no matter what method we use, a dove tail is a dovetail.
There can be different looks to the different methods, some are so precise it is easy to tell they were done by machine, some so loose that we are sure they were made by hand and with no help aids.
But none of them are better or more dovetailed than the other - dovetails are dovetails.
Smiles,
Mads


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## JayT

Mads, Red. I obviously totally agree with you. To me this is no different than a miter box, shooting board or any other shop jig designed to give repeatable, accurate results. However, there are others that heartily disagree and have disparaged the use for some reason. I assume that most of those people have never tried one, because I have yet to hear from someone who has actually used them that doesn't love it.


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## helluvawreck

That's an interesting device. Thanks for posting.

helluvawreck aka Charles
http://woodworkingexpo.wordpress.com


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## DrDirt

Jay you probably would find that those that disparage using the guides, have a Leigh Jig in their shop and haven't cut a dovetail by hand in 15 years.
But are very sure of how things are "supposed to be done"


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## theoldfart

Jay, I'm all for training wheels. I use a mitre box, a honing guide, and have made wooden saw guides for repeatable angled tenon and lap joint cuts.


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## JayT

Actually, DrDirt, quite the opposite. The put downs are more often coming from people who hand cut dovetails freehand. In their world, we should all just practice our sawing until we are perfect instead of using other tools that are available. They rave about how accurate their miter box and saw are to cut a board at 90 degrees, laud the use of a shooting board to clean that cut up, then refuse to acknowledge that using a saw guide for dovetails is OK and don't see the inherent hypocrisy.

I've sat in a session with Paul Sellers where he did a dovetail in less than five minutes with no guides or jigs. He made perfectly vertical cuts and everything fit great. Earlier in the session, he freehanded a perfect 90 degree crosscut, just picked up the saw, made the cut without marking it and then checked it with a square. I'd love to have that ability, but his is the result of a lot of natural talent and thousands upon thousands of cuts. I don't have that level of talent and definitely don't have time to make that many cuts, so am more than willing to use the tools available to help with accuracy and get me back to building furniture instead of just practicing.


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## theoldfart

^+1, been a few "give and take" sessions on this topic in some of the other threads. mostly give ;0)


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## CharlesA

I can do that freehand crosscut, too . . . as long as you let me check it with my custom square.


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## BigRedKnothead

I chuckle because, even with using this guide…..dovetails still take a lot of practice and skill.

I've been using my guide for a couple weeks now, and I still jack things up a fair amount. But as my tag line says…


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## CharlesA

Would this work for half-blind dovetails?


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## JayT

I know they are listed on David Barron's website as for both through and half blind, but I haven't tried half blinds, yet.


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## JGM0658

but since the ratio is far more aesthetic than functional

Not really, there is a point where there can be mechanical failure. Either the "wings" shear off, or the bottom of the pin can break loose. These are extreme cases but real.

On the subject of "cheating" it is all relative. I could not use a Leigh jig, I fount it too cumbersome and difficult to use. I don't use an aid for them simply because I know I would be looking for the damn thing everywhere. I don't think you really need thousands of cuts to become capable without an aid. Most likely after you use it for a while you will be able to make them without the gizmo.


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## DrDirt

I don't use an aid for them simply because I know I would be looking for the damn thing everywhere

That is probably the heart of my not ordering one yet. Shop cleanliness, is my achilles heel

I did buy the Dozuki "Gyochuko 372" saw that David Recommends. Good video as he does a test showing all the different japanese saws.






I ordered it from Stuart at Tools from Japan, along with Shapton stones, a stone holder and a canvas chisel roll.
Can't say good enough things about Tools from Japan… only down side is it takes a couple weeks to get your stuff, it isn't like Amazon it is just Stuart and his wife as extra income. but great prices, and well packed..


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## Woodwrestler

I bought the jigs also. I am transitioning more to the neander side of things and this has been a big help. I did my first dovetails in about 15 minutes and they turned out pretty good. A bit of practice and they come out great. Like he said you don't have to mark nearly as much.


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## iminmyshop

Ditto on the David Barron jig. Note however that it while it is VERY easy to use, it works on a wood thickness only up to about 7/8". Beyond that the saw for some reason tends to wander. When I had trouble with it beyond that thickness wondering if it was the saw, the jig or me I wrote to David and he confirmed the same. If anyone has suggestions on dealing with very thick wood for dovetails, their advice would be most welcome.

As for David himself, again ditto the comments of others above. He provides absolutely outstanding, friendly, responsive service.


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## RichTes

Just thinking about it, would a slightly larger guide with a wider registration surface work better for wider boards? Not sure if anyone who's made one has done that.
Rich


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## parkerdude

In relative recent history David Barron published a blog on how to make his dovetail guide in wood. It's pretty easy.

Here it is ....

I use my practice dovetails as the jig and drill the faces for 1/8" neodymium magnets.


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## jasonbyu75

It seems that any amount of set on the saw would eventually wear out the side of the jig - where the saw teeth rub against it. Is this not the case? It sounds like it's not advisable to use a western saw with this type of dovetail guide for this exact reason?


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## JayT

No, not the case. There is a square of slick tape applied on top of the aluminum body, and the saw plate slides along the tape. As long as the set of the saw is less than the thickness of the tape, the teeth won't touch the body. I had to reduce the set of the Western style saw I am currently using (a different, and better, one than pictured above) but it doesn't rub at all. The problem I had early on was starting the saw too high, so it was rubbing on the tape. A bit of practice solved that issue..


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## builtinbkyn

Veritas makes these as well. They're similarly priced but do add an integral clamp which seems to be a nice feature.

Veritas Dovetail Guide

I don't see anything wrong with using something like this. Like any skill, muscle memory is learned and these I think can help in that regard. Maybe one day they won't be needed, but until then, they provide a good reference for making cuts. JMO


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## JohnnyBoy1981

An old post I know, but I do have what may seem to be an obvious question:

To keep your 1:5 ratio, do your tails always need to be as wide as this guide is? Or can you mark the tail as, say, half the width of the guide and just have lines that are closer together? Does that 1:5 ratio refer to the angle of one side of the guide? If so, does that mean regardless of the width of the tail you mark out with a 1:5 guide, that ratio is still the same?

(I'm not sure if that question made sense or not!)


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## WayneC

They look pretty cool. Thanks for the review.


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## JayT

The 1:5 ratio is the angle-for each 5 units of length, there is 1 unit of offset. I has nothing to do with the width of the tails. The lower the second number, the steeper the angle. David Barron had a blog post a while back where he cut dovetail joints using each of the guides so you can see what each ratio looks like. It's worth a read.

http://davidbarronfurniture.blogspot.com/2013/08/new-dovetail-guides-have-arrived.html

For the size of the pins and tails, I simply mark out where I want the pins to be and how wide and then that determines the width of the tails. I make all the pins the same width and let the tail width fluctuate. You can use equal spacing or change it up with some variable tail widths, whatever gives the look you are going for. Here's a project I'm working on right now;










You can see that the pins are all the same size, while the center tail is a double width. When starting out, I would strongly recommend staying with equal spacing, as it's easier to get the process down when everything is consistent. As you get more comfortable making the joints, then you can start throwing in other changes to the look.


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## JohnnyBoy1981

Thanks for the clarification. I'll check out those links!


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