# hiring a woodworker



## eaglewrangler (Jun 15, 2011)

I am in Central Va, and having trouble finding a helper. Plenty of out of work "carpenters" but my project will require someone with a real interest in woodworking. I had hopes on my framing helpers, but they just don't have the attention to detail needed for finish work. It is frustrating, because it is really a cool opening. I don't know everything, but have worked at most museums in Va and lots of fancy vacation houses over the last 20 years. Now I am leaving contracting and building a B&B and finally have a chance to just go wild with custom work and creative designs. The floor plan has more angles than anything and that is just the start. I am making doors from trees I cut from the same spot where the door is and have many details. I blame Jefferson for the octagons, King Ludwig for the tower, and Disney for the curved layout. 
I get that carpentry is not glamour or well paying and that when you tell a girl you're a carpenter they imagine your a drug using laborer. I had to sort through some laborers before finding two that were not on drugs and had all their teeth, but still think they are in the trade for lack of other options.
Do you think there are young people out there that like wood working enough to want to work in it, learn and show off their skills? It will be about a year of work next to a national park and just up the road from several microbrewerys and wineries.


----------



## JGM0658 (Aug 16, 2011)

Perhaps you would have more success if you advertise that you are seeking a woodworker for custom work. If you advertise for a carpenter that is what you will get. Of course the wage has also a lot to do with it.

On the other hand seems to me what you want judging from your last paragraph is an apprentice. Maybe you should advertise for that too.

Funny that it seems no matter what country you are, carpenters seem to be notoriously unreliable.


----------



## eaglewrangler (Jun 15, 2011)

the work is unreliable, different projects start and finish. Contractors go bankrupt. The weather in unreliable, reliably so. It makes the people in business either love saw dust or don't have other options.


----------



## Bluepine38 (Dec 14, 2009)

We have a few custom woodworking shops here, and I have met some young men who were working in 
them. Very nice talented men making good items. Never asked about the hiring process, as I was a little
past the apprentice age. Most of them are also hunting and fishing type people, so do not think they would
want to move from here. Try craigslist and ask for a woodworking apprentice, you might get lucky.


----------



## Loren (May 30, 2008)

If you want talent you need to put an offer on the market that
attracts talent.

Appeals that might attract younger and more talented woodworkers
to your large project would be:

- room and board included
- opportunity to work on their own projects in your professionally outfitted shop under your guidance.
- fair pay
- permission to claim the work as part of the apprentice's portfolio.
- quality-oriented verbal and experiential mentoring in the craft. 
- clearly defined schedule for the job and a clear offer to keep the workflow
steady through the whole job.


----------



## eaglewrangler (Jun 15, 2011)

Ouch, never been to Illinois, I worked in the North, and projects were seasonal, even if we suffered in the snow things were varied to the weather, same out west, hard to get 40 year round. I pay above average for the area, but low wages are not my doing, just the overall economic outlook, since in 20 years I see people making roughly the same rates I started at, and prices have tripled on most things, that tends to deter the attraction to carpentry. But the same hold true for many jobs out there.
The no teeth thing is reality in many areas, as Crystal meth went through about 6 years ago, now it is bath salts. We built million dollar homes, and I would guess in 2006 about half of new hires had a drug problem and didn't last, not counting pot use or alcohol. The no teeth is a side effect, and while I used to believe in second chances, those people all ended up getting back into drugs (5 from 5) I would prefer not repeating this again.
Having lived up North, I appreciate your little buddy tough guy thing, though I am more of a fat big former wieght lifter. I have a crown on one tooth. I don't plan to be a contractor anywhere, as the bussiness is changed for good. 
I treat people fair, they all like me and know while I expect good work, I understand how long things take. 
I still want to find someone interested in finish work. More a workworking nerd, than framing tough guy. They are a rarer type. It is more a question of interest than skill. Preferably someone with some art ability. An example would be, I made a door with reposse copper panels of bear foot prints. I had to learn reposse, design the prints from the nearby bear tracks, and I never did much copper work, so it took some trial and error. I do some carving, timberframing, furniture. I have a frame crew now, I do all the lay outs, there is just too much geometry and odd angles for anyone else to understand it. They will be good framers, but not interested in door making or cabinetry. I guess I need to look for an artist minded woodworker and have been looking in the wrong area for what I want. 
Sometimes it helps to explain things to others to see the problem in a new light, thanks, even for the insults.


----------



## bruc101 (Sep 13, 2008)

We try to offer a kid a summer job every year. Sometimes we get a good one and then sometimes we get a dud.
The ones that want to work and learn are usually the ones that come from low to mid income families with or without their teeth.

The ones that just want a job and a paycheck could care less if they learned anything or not and usually come from higher income families with all their teeth.
These are just our experiences over the years and yours could be different.

One of the most sort after carpenters in my area has an 8th grade education and finally got dentures last year. It's always been his skilled work that keeps him in a high paying position, not having his teeth. He built his family a beautiful home about 15 years ago in one of the nicer neighborhoods in our area. He's well respected because of his skilled work and the contributions he makes to our community. He will give you the shirt off his back if he thinks you need it. Having just an 8th grade education and not having teeth have not hurt him in any way during his career as far as anyone that knows him goes.

I've had dentures for 10 years, I have 8 employees that have dentures and only one of them wear their dentures when we're working, their choice.

My personal opinion having or not having teeth has nothing to do with how skilled a person is.

But, I understand what you're saying so no pun intended.


----------



## eaglewrangler (Jun 15, 2011)

The toothless reference was purely about Meth, not the dentally challenged, former ufc fighters or hockey players, or other reasons for dental issues. 
My crew is all former jocks to some degree, one played in college on a sports scholarship. It is a theme I would prefer to less noble conversations.


----------



## rance (Sep 30, 2009)

PM sent to you eaglewrangler.

Hey look, an up and coming carpenter:


----------



## pierce85 (May 21, 2011)

Gee Whiz, a complete mystery to me why you can't find reliable, young talent… Clearly you need to increase the condescension because that's what people look for in an ideal employer. That and low wages. Or did you have something else in mind besides wages?


----------



## eaglewrangler (Jun 15, 2011)

The rates here are low, relative to the North. We get under bids from North Carolina crews that still work for barely minimum wage and run with no insurance. I don't set wages. Top carpenters are making around 15-18, helpers 10-12, guys running a excavator, $15, To crack $20 an hour you had to run a crew and project manage, then you might make a bonus on the over 20% profit, which was subject to much creative math, not ususally in the managers favor. This was at top builders on custom high end homes. The tract homes were built by lower payed guys. If I look back, I made about the same starting out as people do today, 20 years later. Now I never worked in Illinois. I have worked all over in my early years, and Virginia falls about average, out west was very low, the North was higher, but at the time housing costs were much more. I do know the cost of living is about three time than 20 years ago. I think gas was around a dollar, bought a house for $50,000, health insurance was $25 a month, It has all tripled at least, while wages are the same. I made $14 as a helper and $20 running a crew some 18 years ago.
If you think I need to offer more to attract in Northern guys, I can match what you get up there for the right guy. Give me a hint as to the range, if an extra couple dollar will get talented guy or gal, I will be glad to pay Illinois wages.
Anyone from Colorado, Florida or California have any insight as to what a good wage is? I would guess that they are hit still by the housing slow down. 
Anyone in their 20s have a thought on the subject?


----------



## bhog (Jan 13, 2011)

Im in my thirties,a carpenter and didnt care for your comments.Pretty ignorant.


----------



## madts (Dec 30, 2011)

Now we have to ban Teeth! I thought that politics and religion were enough.


----------



## eaglewrangler (Jun 15, 2011)

ok I give up it was a flippant comment. I don't have a pic of the guy I got rid of, but it might clear up my over generalizations. It is hard with a small business hiring and firing. I doubt his type make it to sites about carpentry. Clearly the great lakes region is the place to look. I know the truck drivers from this area help you unload in snow, were as other areas will stay in the truck in good weather.
I was more interested in learning what other people do when looking for specific help and what other areas pay for various levels of skill. 
I think I feel a cavity coming on.


----------



## bhog (Jan 13, 2011)

Eagle I know the types your referring to.They are also tapers and roofers etc.Work cheap and do crap work,uneducated ,wouldnt know how to cut a hip rafter,forget a stair stringer.

I can relate,good help is hard to find.Hope you find yours.


----------



## Dusty56 (Apr 20, 2008)

*I think I feel a cavity coming on.* LMAO !


----------



## fge (Sep 8, 2008)

Not sure if I can offer much to this forum. I am fairly new to the business so still learning a lot, currently I own and run Top Quality Cabinets located 30 minutes south of San Antonio in the country. We do what we love and is our passion. We do anything related to custom finish work but try to focus on custom high end kitchens. My wife and I are full time in the business and I have one full time guy who works with us. I am not going to disclose his wage with us but I will say our area seems to have lower pay scales then many other areas in the country. In reading this, it seems no woodworker from the Great Lakes area would want to work here or for us.

My friend has his shop and they are much larger then us, he tells me his crew makes between 14-18 per hour. I think his pay scale is very competative for this area.


----------



## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

At the turn of the 20th Century, Teddy Roosevelt said a man working 40 hours a week should be able to feed his family, buy an house, educate his children, take an occasional vacation and save for retirement. That was a radical Statement in those days. However, achieved it in the 20th Century. Now, at the turn of the 21st, that is becoming a radical statement again with most families requiring 2 incomes. That defines your problem, The really good help is going to living wage jobs. I always paid union wages and benefits. I never had very many problems with any of the guys.


----------



## kizerpea (Dec 2, 2011)

check wil the local schools..carpentry or woodworking classes…may be a star rising in there some where…


----------



## lunn (Jan 30, 2012)

Rural East Tn. here, poverty? I see it every day. So lets talk about we'll say Joe He was working at a factory been there 8 years bam no job moved to Mexico. By now he has a wife and 2 kids. buying a home So he has to find another job but all the factories are gone. Gets a job driveing nails 2/3 of what he was making. So his wife goes to work. She just clears a few bucks after she pays daycare. One day he gets a toothache so what to do? No insurance barley making ends meet. Food on the table, roof over their head, truck tore up, or a $k for a crown. $100 to get it pulled. If you were Joe what whould do?


----------



## dhazelton (Feb 11, 2012)

Someone I know used to own a cabinet shop. He and his partner took $150K salary, plus the company paid for vehicles, gas, petty cash for nice dinners out etc. He once complained that they couldn't find good help that stayed and he even had a couple of guys he had to go pickup because they had no license due to DWI and they had to have their pay garnished for child support. I asked him what he paid and it was ten an hour for starters and up to fifteen an hour for the guys who had been there a few years. Some people just don't get it.


----------



## EPJartisan (Nov 4, 2009)

You have the exact same problem I am having here in Chicago. I have been searching for decent and reliable help for 6 years now. I have had quite a few assistants ,and helpers, and hang-outers, and for some reason it never quite works out past 5-6 months. Don't listen to the guys on here who are insulting you for your frustration and word choice.. I hear you completely.

It has been difficult. I am an artist.. I do woodwork, carving, turning, painting, sculpting, the list goes on and on. I am always full of new projects, I have patrons to please, a grant which I am obligated to, and then clients and my condo. I have a full bank account, can pay up to $25 an hour, but the issue is the same, and if I hear you right you are the same as me… Overly dedicated, love the work and freedom more than the money, and see the future as something exciting to work towards … more cool projects… more chances to create and leave a short legacy behind…. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO PAY SOMEONE TO FEEL THIS AS WELL!! BIG SIGH!!!

I have been complaining about this for so long and the other woodworkers and artists around here are all in the same boat. Too many people want to be in control and do their own thing, too many people want to earn big money over serious meaning and passion, too many people do not want to work very hard and have the problem that "they are not paid enough", but are completely unwilling to prove they are worth more. This is why apprenticeships are the way they are today, we need loyalty, and that does not come from money.

Eaglewrangler, we are of a kind… and everyone like us.. is just like us… so we can not hire someone like us… which is what we all need… clones of ourselves. So instead.. I take what I can get, and glean as much use out of every assistant until they end up leaving. It is all about respect, loyalty, and passion… and then money f**ks it all up.

My studio can earn money.. however much money as we can make things. If the right person understands this and works hard, we can earn even more money doing what we love and then they can earn more money working for me. This philosophy got me here and I can take someone with very easily.. but no one wants to make the sacrifice to get more than they had before.. everyone wants it given to them as if they deserve it. I worked my butt off for all I have and came from a very very poor family. MY parents are proud of me, and honor all the sacrifices I have made to get to where I am. I would have loved help when I was younger.. I am ready to help someone.. but I can't find that younger me, who believes in hard work, sacrifice, and loyalty.. and wants something more than just money!!


----------



## Puzzleman (May 4, 2010)

Is there a reason that some are focusing on hiring a younger worker?

I hire older people. My pay rate is low compared to the numbers that are being thrown about. I look for retirees and stay at home parents and people on disability. They don't want to work 40+ hrs a week anymore but if you get several people, you can cover all of the work. A senior who is interested in woodworking as a hobby, might just LOVE this position but doesn't want full time anymore.

Think differently about the job. The goal is to get the work done and teach the skills. Why does it have to be done by just one person? why not hire several older people who have some of the skill sets you are seeking?
I think that if you contacted AARP local office, post on Craigslist saying part time and perfect for retiree's, go to the local senior hang out spot (donut shop, McDonalds, etc.) and pass out your card and a small flier about the job, you will find the right people for the job.


----------



## BillWhite (Jul 23, 2007)

Rance, that pic almost caused me to spew my coffee. That's TOOOOOO funny.
Bill


----------



## EPJartisan (Nov 4, 2009)

Hey Jim, I explored that a little recently.. discovered… in a hierarchal checklist…
a) my skill-sets needs are rather specific to capable craftsmen and artists
b) not fast, flexible, dexterous, or strong enough to do the heavy or task work I need done
c) not enough respect for me, the studio, nor my education/experience 
(yes, I dislike people treating me like as if I am a know nothing kid, a difference from sharing info with a 40 yo, 10 year vetted and educated professional… and detest those that give more advice, talk talk talk… than actual physical or creative help)
and 
d) I am not in a place to be as patient and as adjustable, with my current deadlines.. and if I didn't have these deadlines.. I would not need the help I do. I cant have someone slow me down more than a certain already determined amount, at least not until after Nov.


----------



## pierce85 (May 21, 2011)

Wilburpan's most excellent video on buying a quality smoothing plane is quite apt for this thread, surprisingly so, and fits this discussion almost to a T. It expresses my thoughts exactly on hiring quality employees, help, apprentices, whatever. Like most things, you get what you pay for. You pay crap wages, you get crap employees, and your products/services likely reflect the same.

Buying a smoothing plane


----------



## EPJartisan (Nov 4, 2009)

That video is my point exactly…only take out hand plane and put in employment.
take out "$300 dollars is a lot of money", and replace that with.. "it doesn't pay enough."

Beyond that you miss, at least… my problem. It is not about money, it is about the quality hand plane.
No one wants to make the sacrifice to take the job, the people who are honed like a quality hand planes ARE the employers here… the product for sale. YOU want a job.. you want ONLY money….. go get a job working in a factory or at Walmart until it closes down.. you want a career, self reliance, and passion that transcends money and bring joy… THAT requires choices on your end.. not mine. Your choices about life and conduct are where you choose to put and sacrifice your energy. Mine is in my studio.. and anyone who wants this as well, I have a place to do exactly what I do….earn money doing what I love.

I have the money.. give me the quality worker!!!!!! but I will not and never will think that someone deserves it without proof of their skills and dedication to me, my studio, and my business. If I pay them to show me this, then there is only purchased loyalty which goes only as far as you earn money.

I and my whole career is about making beautiful things for people.. not money. I make good money doing this, because I do not care about making money. IF you do.. then you can not work for me.. because if you are worried about money, you are NOT focused on the goal, which brings in the money. I repeat.. I am an artist.. I do not produce nor manufacture "products". Every job is different, every project requires new skills, tools, and creativity. I WILL PAY ANYONE TO COME HELP ME DO THIS!!! and in the end.. I will still be doing this. With help or not.. it is my greatest strength.. it is my joy..and will be with me till I die.


----------



## EPJartisan (Nov 4, 2009)

Damn, after reading my last post.. YES.. I am leaving for vacation in three days. Sorry if I was over aggressive.


----------



## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

One of the other contractors I knew ask, "Wouldn't it be nice if you could hire help like yourself?" I told him those guys all wanted me to work for them ;-)


----------



## ssnvet (Jan 10, 2012)

From my perspective, there are a couple of chronic problems plaguing the US employment market ….

First and foremost is DRUGS! Users usually don't care about anything in life other than their next fix… and more often than not, they come with baggage (no driver's license, bad health, stay up to late partying, can't think straight, etc…)

Second, poor parenting. Even basic "life skills" like looking at people when you talk to them, or being polite, taking pride in your work, etc… are becoming more and more rare.

Third (and related to #2) is a hamstrung, and often misguided education system, where teachers are bogged down trying to fill in what parents neglected to teach at home (basic civility and obedience), principles have their hands tied when it comes to dealing with trouble makers, and administrators are trying to balance a shrinking budget and politicians want to implement a never ending list of social experiments.

Fourth is a new cultural norm, where all "successful" people are expected to go to college. But many colleges are pumping out useless degrees with no real skills… but yet the graduates have an expectation for big bucks (to pay their mountain of debt).

The best thing the company I work for ever did was to implement pre-employment drug screaning and random drug screening. Most of our factory jobs are for low skilled labor and the starting wages reflect that… but the crew needs to be sober and safe, regardless.


----------



## eaglewrangler (Jun 15, 2011)

Well despite getting beat up a bit for poor word choice, the later posts were better at explaining things. 
I am beyond passionate about wood working and architecture. I went to college and may or may not have had better options, though many careers have turned out less than stellar of people my age but that is a political economy rant I can not solve. 
I worked for decades with strict rules, what was historic, what was specified what was allowed by the development review board to approve the exact shade of gray. Now I get to do things my way. Which is very cool and mind opening. I will say that various trades have gotten swept up with the job. I spent a long time putting dozens of stakes in the dirt with crazy math, but the excavator learn to follow my lead and now some crazy stakes take shape and he comes back to see it grow. Same with others, they question eventual see I have a plan and get it or not. I have some good guys, for many trades, but as stated better by others, I need a helper with a love of wood and interest in doing more than just work 9-5. 
It is somewhat unrealistic to find clones of me, I have two, they are a pain more often than useful and they want food all the time and need rides to school. I think artist people just want other people at their level of interest, not formal education or experience.


----------



## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*artist people just want other people at their level of interest, not formal education or experience.*

Those people are doing their own thing looking for you to work for them ;-)


----------



## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

EJPartisan, your second to last post says a lot. It IS about what your customer wants, and making a quality product. Nothing else will cut it. The money comes if you put the sweat into it (be it skull or physical sweat). I work as an engineer now, and am concerned about the younger generation. They don't have a "fire in the gut" for doing a quality job, a lot of times.

Eaglewrangler, I share your pain. Getting good help is really tough. I have worked as a construction supervisor in the past, and had to ride herd on the trades hired. Many were flakes (Beverly Hills, but you never know where the workers come from). You have to vet out the contractors carefully, or you might find some sleeping in the garage of the house that is being remodeled, and crapping in the back yard. True story.


----------



## pierce85 (May 21, 2011)

It's useful to remember that every generation laments the moral decline of its young people. So you, your parents, grandparents, great grandparents and so on were part of a generation that at the time was surely doomed. The same sort of worries and frustrations were leveled against them that we level against our youth today. So this long tradition of bitching about how bad things have gotten with young people will be practiced with the same level of exasperation by our children, grandchildren, and great grandchildren.

I don't see today's youth any less passionate or morally bankrupt than any other generation. I do, however, see more worry and despair among our youth for their future, the result of which has been less risk taking on their part. And who can blame them.


----------



## bruc101 (Sep 13, 2008)

I hear you Puzzleman. I've got two 86 year old's in our shop that's been with us since I was a kid and they still work a 40 hour week Their experience and personalities are a major part of our business.

We also have a guy in his 70s still going strong. I also have younger guys and girls that are building on the older one's experiences, especially our 13 year old daughter and out 16 year old twin daughters.

I heard one of the twins tell one of the 86 year old's recently, I sure wish you bums would take a nap every afternoon so we could get some rest. You guys working us to bones. The only reason you're still here is cause yo wives won't let you stay home during the day. That set off much laughter in the shop.

Many people are out of work and it's getting worse here, look under your nose and you may find the one that will click for you at any age but do take a look at our senior citizens for part time work.


----------



## rance (Sep 30, 2009)

eaglewrangler, I am interested in the open position. PM me to discuss or meet face to face.


----------



## eaglewrangler (Jun 15, 2011)

My block mason has been 65 for atleast 5 years, and he outworks his helpers. I don't see any of his helpers taking over and running a crew, bidding or estimating jobs. You can't sit still anymore in one job. They should be masters by now too, but they are contented to mix mud and carry blocks. A carpenter or anyone needs to watch what is going on, not just carry blocks or plywood, they should learn the whole business,


----------



## pierce85 (May 21, 2011)

I just hope you guys are paying these "old" guys what they're really worth in terms of their years of experience, dedication, skill, and so on… not simply what you can get them for - aka Walmart wages.

They deserve much better.


----------



## bruc101 (Sep 13, 2008)

pierce85 that's a good question and post. The two 86 years old's I mentioned in my post have been with us for at least 60 years and make well over $25.00 an hour. They've tried several times to stop us from paying them but that "ain't" going to happen. They both retired years ago with a great retirement plan and SS and use that as their excuse for us not to pay them and they refuse to stop working.

They have to much experience in our business and are absolutely to valuable to us not to pay them. They can do anything and everything in our business and we never question any of that. When the economy went out on us and we had no work for over a year, guess who still opened the doors to the shop every morning about sunrise rain sleet or snow? Those two 86 year old's and they're usually the last to leave everyday.

Their kids have told me, still working doing what they love to do is keeping them alive and going. My daughters told them not to worry about them worry about us because we can't keep up with them and we're 16 years old.

I hate to hear of anyone taking advantage of a senior or a kid working for them and not paying them what they're worth. Worth also means not how much work they do but also means how much they know.

When we go on a trip for a few days I leave and have no worries about what's happening in the shop because of those two.

Oh, neither of them have their teeth anymore and haven't for years. They both have dentures and don't wear them because they say they're a pain in the a**. They both also have college educations, are proficient in CAD and can program and run any cnc in our shop and know how to price out a job.

They may be in their golden years and they're also gold to all of us and they get treated with that kind of respect.


----------



## Puzzleman (May 4, 2010)

For my employees, I pay them what you call "Walmart" wages. However, I sweeten the pot by the following items: 4 hr shifts are the norm, they tell me what days of the week they are available, they tell me what time they will start their shift, if they need a day off they take it with no grief from me, no weekend work, no customer contact.

It's not always about the money. There are intangibles that don't cost me anything but are valuable to someone who has activities outside of work that would interfere with a regular schedule.

Not everyone is looking to get rich by working a part time job, sometimes it is just about getting out of the house and interacting with people, sometimes it is about being able to buy fishing equipment without the spouse complaining, sometimes one has a lake home and goes there for 4 day weekends.

There a lot of reasons to work somewhere besides the money.


----------

