# Titebond glue joint failure



## greatview (Oct 3, 2009)

Imagine a picture frame and one corner fails. I'd rather not break the opposing joint so that I can cleanly remove any glue residue (I can if I have to). I could probably get some "super glue" to wick into the joint. I might be able to get some other glue into the joint. The wood is cherry and the original glue is Tightbond II. I've done dozens of the same joint and never had a failure. It may have been over stressed but I'd like to repair it as easily as possible. 
Thoughts??


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## DustyM (May 16, 2016)

Is it fully separated, or just cracking?

If it were me, and the crack was large enough, maybe try to slide in a piece of sandpaper to scuff the inside of the joint, then try to apply glue in a similar fashion (using a thin piece of scrap to apply inside)?


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## Ripper70 (Nov 30, 2015)

Do you think perhaps a corrugated nail or two would work instead of re-gluing?


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## greatview (Oct 3, 2009)

The joint is still tight but fully separated as I can move one piece relative to the other slightly. A corrugated nail really would't work as the material is cherry and fairly dense and hard. Also not thick enough.
I've attached a photo and you'll see that it is a set of nesting tables and one of the corners (smallest table) has separated. If I must, I can refinish the repaired table.


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## bigJohninvegas (May 25, 2014)

Wow that's a tough repair. What about a spline on the underside? Can you remove the legs to get to it? Just like a Domino, or dowel except exposed from the bottom.


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## SignWave (Feb 2, 2010)

That's very attractive, and I like the aesthetics and the light tones in that cherry.

It looks like end-grain to end-grain joint. I would consider something like a spline to support the joint, or else open the joint completely and add a biscuit, dowel, or floating tenon. I understand your hesitation, but I think that just hoping the glue will hold an end grain joint is optimistic, especially over time.


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## greatview (Oct 3, 2009)

I've made a dozen or more sets over the last few years and never had a joint fail. I've thought about some type of reinforcement (spline, dowel, etc.) but never did as I had no joint problems in the past. What I may do is to make a new top for the one that's failed and use the old top for a new set after cleaning out the glue. With a narrow kerf blade I could split the opposing joint and have a top slightly smaller. Or, just ignore the size difference and reinstall the top to the leg assembly. Here's a better photo of the assembly. I typically give these to
local charities which sell them on auction and they sell for about $300 per set.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

I'd be temped to try staples. The T50 staplers are powerful enough to drive it flat to the surface (not flush though). The 1/4" crown staples are heavier gauge and the pneumatic stapler should be able to drive it flush, but you need the gun and a compressor.

It seems like you should be able to open the joint enough to get some glue in there without breaking the other joints and that would help stabilize the joint however you choose to strengthen it mechanically.


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## SignWave (Feb 2, 2010)

Those are very attractive.


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

The miter joint has no jointery? Just glue on the end grain if so I think your ahead of the game.
They are nice looking tables and design


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## Planeman40 (Nov 3, 2010)

If you failed to spread glue on *both sides* of the joint before assembling, this may have cause the joint failure. Titebond is a really good glue and I see it as unlikely that a properly glued joint would have failed unless under extreme stress. Some people only spread glue on one side of the joint and this doesn't give you the strongest joint. I learned a lot about gluing wood when I was building my first homebuilt airplane. Nothing makes you more focused and knowledgeable than building something that might kill you! : )


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

How about a bow tie across the back side. flush of course


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## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

I don't think this was glue failure but rather the butt joint, It needed more than glue. Spline,dowels,Domino,etc


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## greatview (Oct 3, 2009)

I agree that a spline (or whatever) would strengthen the joint but I've made many of this design (maybe 15 - 20 sets with twelve joints in each set - 200 joints or more) without an issue and was hoping to find a solution to the broken joint that I now have.


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## Gene01 (Jan 5, 2009)

On end grain joints, I always spread a very thin coat of glue on both surfaces. (I use TBII, also). I use my finger and really work it in. When it dries it has effectively sealed the pores so it won't suck up the new glue and starve the joint. Which, I suspect happened in your case.


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## pintodeluxe (Sep 12, 2010)

That actually doesn't surprise me at all that a relatively small miter joint failed. It isn't the glue, but the very nature of the joint used. In the future I would use a #20 biscuit at each corner.

As far as a quick fix for the current project… what about a pocket screw from underneath? Use a clamp to align the parts when driving the screw. The smaller Kreg jigs would work great. A little more glue wouldn't hurt if you can work it into the joint.


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## dalepage (Feb 6, 2016)

Steer clear of quick fixes like a corrugated nail or a staple. Your work is too nice to put a pimple on it like that. You will not be happy trying to put super glue in the joint.

I would always put splines on miters because you're basically gluing end grain. Your not having had any of these joints fail before is, I think, because the joint never had enough pressure on it to pull it apart.

You can turn the need for splines into a design element, or hide them like biscuits in the future.

For now, I'd put the frame in clamps and draw it together. Drill a hole into one edge, perpendicular to the edge. Get a small dowel and file a very slight groove for the glue to escape. Put glue in the hole. Tap the dowel home until it bottoms out. Flush cut the dowel. Remember, exposed dowels are end grain and will darken more than face grain when they're oiled. You can lessen that by treating the end of the dowel.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Steer clear of quick fixes like a corrugated nail or a staple. Your work is too nice to put a pimple on it like that. You will not be happy trying to put super glue in the joint.
> 
> I would always put splines on miters because you re basically gluing end grain. Your not having had any of these joints fail before is, I think, because the joint never had enough pressure on it to pull it apart.
> 
> ...


A hidden staple or corrugated plate on the underside is a pimple, but a single exposed dowel end on the edge of one corner isn't? That's a very strange aesthetic principle you got going there.


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## Carloz (Oct 12, 2016)

> I agree that a spline (or whatever) would strengthen the joint but I ve made many of this design (maybe 15 - 20 sets with twelve joints in each set - 200 joints or more) without an issue and was hoping to find a solution to the broken joint that I now have.
> 
> - greatview


It is just a matter of time before they start failing one after the other. Even the cheapest frames should not rely on butt joint as it is the weakest of all known glue joints. 
Adding a spline in your case seems to be the easiest and most tangible option.


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

> On end grain joints, I always spread a very thin coat of glue on both surfaces. (I use TBII, also). I use my finger and really work it in. When it dries it has effectively sealed the pores so it won t suck up the new glue and starve the joint. Which, I suspect happened in your case.
> 
> - Gene Howe


Glue sizing is wise ^^


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

> It is just a matter of time before they start failing one after the other. Even the cheapest frames should not rely on butt joint as it is the weakest of all known glue joints.
> Adding a spline in your case seems to be the easiest and most tangible option.
> 
> I agree couldn't have said it better or nicer.
> If you continue to build this way its a step in the wrong direction.And will be considered poor craftsmanship.


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## greatview (Oct 3, 2009)

I was really looking for a solution to my single bad joint. I've been making similar joints since 1977 or before and have had but one failure that I know of. The nesting tables I've made for many years with my first failure recently. I've made over 350 picture frames mostly of cherry and the only failures have been when a frame (with glass, etc.) has fallen to the floor. I appreciate the suggestions of a spline, biscuit and so forth. After over forty years of successfully making this joint I think I've got it where I want it. I've just started on another batch and will consider modifying the joint to include something to strengthen it but I will probably go with what has worked for forty plus years. At the current age of 76, I doubt that I'll be around for forty more years.


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