# Best CNC?



## OldWolfsWoodShop

I am considering purchasing a Cnc router. I am looking for some thoughts on the units out there? Please advise.


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## WillAdams

Hard to suggest w/o knowing:

- budget
- desired working area / volume
- intended use / materials

Another consideration is your drawing / CAD experience-- you'll be much more comfortable if you've used CorelDRAW, Adobe Illustrator or Macromedia Freehand or SketchUp or a CAD program.

If you have a newer computer, I'd suggest trying out http://www.123dapp.com/ and see if creating thus works for you.


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## OldWolfsWoodShop

Thanks for the comments. To provide more info.
Budget, somewhat flexible
Work area, good sized
Materials, wood, plastic, soft metals

I have a good skill set with various graphics packages


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## bullhead1

I think the major question is what are you intending to use it for. That will play a big factor in bed size, bit size and on and on. I have one and use it for smaller items but if i wanted to cut cabinet parts I would have to seriously upgrade to a stronger and bigger machine.


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## oldnovice

There are many choices and a lot depends on what you want to do, what you can afford, and personal preferences!
One of my personal preferences was that it was made in the USA and that eliminated a lot of them. There are a lot of CNCs on eBay made in China and not that I questions their quality I do question their customer service. A number of new entries from Germany and Austria but I do not know where these are made or, again anything about customer service.

*If you are starting out in CNC you waqnt/need a good support system!*

Back to the selection of a CNC, as stated above, there are many choices:
Legacy (one of my finalists, very good customers service/reviews, made in USA)
Shopbot Tools (other models, have not had any occasion to use customer service as yet) 
Laguna (good tools, bad customer service, check this site for comments)
Shark CNC (alos sold by Rockler, some very poor reviews, no word on customer service)
K2 CNC (good machines good reviews, no revies on customer service)
CAMaster (I see these mentioned on the CNC Zone)

You also need to decide on desk top versus floor, router versus spindle (and spindle voltage requirements), dust collection, additional software (depends on what is supplied).
There are the LJ on this site that use CNCs that will probably supply input too!

You can also check out sites like CNC Zone for a lot of very good information including other manufacturers.

Or specific CNCs like Let's Talk Shopbot


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## jssussex

I have been following "Legacy CNC Woodworking a number of years. They have 3 axis and 5 Axis hybrids. They've been making ornamental milling machines and CNCs for over 25 years. They are not an entry hobbyist tool but they do have serious hobbyist machines through large commercial machines.

There design has an open bed so you have huge flexibility. The 5 axis hybrid does both flat and spindles They have over 100 demo videos on-line and they have many training video with code etc available for their customers. I've evaluated till I can't think straight and I keep coming back to the Legacy for quality, flexibility, customer services and upgrade paths. I'm a proud owner of an ARTY Personal. Call them and ask for John Hennen and he can give you tons of information on every aspect of the machine, software and business.


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## oldnovice

You can't go wrong with a Legacy machine, good workmanship, made in U.S.A, very good support, and proctivity help if you go into mass production. As stated before, they were one of my top two contenders.

I went with Shopbot because of the ability to "stretch" the work envelope from 48"x24" to 48"x96" when I need/want to do that.


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## Henry6

123dapp.com is a nice site for beginners.


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## bloomingtonmike

John, are you wanting to buy a turnkey solution or build a machine. I built a Joe's CastCNC machine 4X4 rack and pinion machine with vrail and a 2.2kw chinese electrospindle. It is pretty big and takes up a good 72X72 chuck of space but I love it. If you get into a decent size machine make sure you opt for a welded steel base. Makes all the difference in the world vs a base based on unistrut or alum extrusion. Building your own if you can do it will teach you everything there is to know about your machine. You will not be dependent on anyone to source your parts. Your upgrades are only limited by you and your checkbook.

http://www.youtube.com/my_videos?o=U


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## oldnovice

*Henry6,* I went to that site and got a virus warning from my virus scanner!

*John,* My Shopbot has 24" long x 48" wide x 5" high cutting envelope and a 49" wide x 72" long x 68" high and can be expanded to a cutting area 96" long with a power bar.
So I traded the length extension on the Shopbot for the additional axis on the Legacy … good decision, don't know?


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## OldWolfsWoodShop

My thanks to all for your comments. Close to making a decision. Keep you posted.


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## thognar

Wonder if jumping onto such an old thread will work, but am curious about Old Wolf's choice and if he has any reviews?

I'm really curious about Legacy. Can anyone point to any independent reviews? Looks like a nice product at a tolerable price, but it would be nice to read a few in-depth reviews from people not associated with the company. Thanks!


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## Shadowrider

Mike, the Legacy stuff looks to be full on industrial quality for the most part. Including their apparent sales methodology. I can find ZERO specs or prices on their site which leads me to believe that once you place an inquiry, you'll have a sales associate jumping all over you to buy. That's a huge turnoff for me. Hope I'm wrong on that.

But their stuff looks first rate from what I can tell and probably out of my price range. I'm getting close to going with Probotics for my first CNC buy.


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## thognar

The larger/industrial CNC companies do seem to all have more of a car sales model than a woodworking tool sales model. Perhaps that's just because the tools are about the price of a car. Yikes!

I would like to price/consider a machine with 4 axis (5ish for Legacy), medium sized table, and a water-cooled spindle. Looks like Probotix has some options that are interesting and pricing is less painful. Will have to look at these more.


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## OldWolfsWoodShop

Hi Mike, after researching many brands, Legacy included, I chose The CWI Professor HDX. This machine has a 24×36 working surface. This frame is cast iron, so very solid, with an aluminum table. The spindle is Italian made, suitable for 4 different collets. I found that most brands, as mentioned earlier, have the used car attitude, so push push and push. I purchased the machine from Canadian Woodworker in Calgary.

As well, my research included software, which is truly the backbone of the CNC experience. I purchased the Aspire Software from Vectric.

I was told that when you acquire a CNC, you have a long learning curve. I can now say that is true. The capability of the CNC is amazing.

Mike, if I can answer any questions, please feel free to reach out.

John (Old Wolf)


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## jssussex

Well I posted 2 years ago and now I've owned one for 2 years. I love the Legacy CNC unit. http://www.legacycncwoodworking.com/ 
They have many new models all based on their tried and true components, electronics and open welded steel frame and multiple options. Legacy CNC woodworking is their primary business not just another tool to sell. They have twice weekly free classes on using and creating great projects from beginner to expert plus they take questions at the end of each session. This reduces the learning curve considerably. They also have over 100 videos on line. Check legacy cnc woodworking on youtube.

I've been happy with their product support and more than once they linked up to my pc remotely and made a correction to my system. Not their fault.

I love the water cooled spindel, the A axis and the ability to tilt it so I can make tapered spindles.

They provide 2 days factory training for new owners.

I've had 0 issues with the machine in the last 24 month. To see what can be produced on this machine check out my personal site http://heritagecarving.com/ or

https://facebook.com/HeritageCarving


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## MarioF

There is already a lot of good comments here, my experience and vote go to Shopbot, US made, top notch customer service (even international) and delivers 8 hour days without a hitch


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## jssussex

Well I posted 2 years ago and now I've owned one for 2 years. I love the Legacy CNC unit. They have many new models all based on their tried and true components, open welded steel frame and multiple options. Legacy CNC woodworking is their primary business not just another tool to sell. They have twice weekly free classes on using and creating great projects from beginner to expert plus they take questions at the end of each session. This reduces the learning curve considerably. They also have over 100 videos on line. Check legacy woodworking on youtube.

I've been happy with their product support and more than once they linked up to my pc remotely and made a correction to my system. Not their fault.

I love the water cooled spindel, the A axis and the ability to tilt it so I can make tapered spindles.

They provide 2 days factory training for new owners.

I've had 0 issues with the machine in the last 24 month. To see what can be produced on this machine check out my personal site http://heritagecarving.com/ or

https://facebook.com/HeritageCarving


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## thognar

John, the CWI Professor does look like a quality machine. I was not aware of this brand, but it looks like a good option to consider. Appreciate the feedback on learning curve and software too.

I'm a software developer and a geek so the open source software out there, Linux CNC, looks interesting, but, frankly, I'd like to have full-featured, working software that I can count on. Might be interesting to dig into Linux CNC, but Vectric seems to be the most popular CNC software. Aspire is nice!

Mario, I appreciate the quick review on Shopbot. I was aware of the company and their offerings, but it's nice to get some feedback from a user. Looks like quality machines.

Jim, thanks for the Legacy review. Legacy looks to be good quality too. Enjoyed viewing your work. The stair parts really show off the 3d capabilities of the Legacy (and your talent).

So many EXPENSIVE choices!!!!


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## bloomingtonmike

The Vectric products do not replace LinuxCNC or Mach. VCarvepro will let you do your vector drawing (pseudo CAD) and the CAM (apply tool paths to the vectors and generate the gcode). You use LinuxCNC or Mach to load and process the Gcode and send signals via hardware to your controller.

Vectric - function of CAD/CAM
Mach or LinuxCNC - Postprocessor to intyerface your controller to the Gcode software

Some machines do their own post processing and you load your gcode on a sdcard or send it via usb or network


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## oldnovice

I agreed with *Mario* and got a Shopbot Buddy some time ago!

Is it the best?
That answer is *NOT* the same for everyone as each user needs to determine what is best for their needs!

As many have said in this forum, there are so many choices available that were not 10 years ago (especially for the hobyist) making the selection process even more difficult.


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## thognar

So…. software.

One needs CAD (to draw), CAM (to convert CAD to G-Code) and machine-specific drivers to translate G-Code to machine-specific signals. The latter is normally included with the hardware. Some of the software is both CAD plus CAM.

Mach and LinuxCNC are examples of CAM. I believe Vectric Cut2d and Cut3d would be considered CAM too.

Any CAD program is, you guessed it, CAD. Some drawing programs can generate 2d and 3d output that can be processed by some CAM software. Sketchup, for example, can generate dxf from the Pro version so can do some of the CAD work.

Does that sounds right so far?

Looks like Vectric Aspire and ArtCAM Pro are the high-end 3d CAD+CAM tools. At $2500+ these are, shall we say, pretty serious tools.

Other tools that can handle true 3d? And rotational 3d? Looks like Legacy's CCAM4 is nice (and tied to their HW).

I'm guessing that one could use Vectric Cut3d or something like it to do the CAM function with many CAD applications, but I'm also guessing that a CAD+CAM package that is tailored for CNC would be easier to use.

So…. what are good choices for 3d (including rotational, A axis) CNC work?

Thanks!


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## oldnovice

*Mike*
I use *free version* of PTC Creo Direct Modeling Express which is a 3D CAD that program allows me to export 3D models and 2D PDF files that I can use in PartWorks 3D and PartWorks, respectively. PartWork can use PDF files directly and PartWorks 3D can use my exported models without any problems.

I can't say enough about Creo 3D modeling as it is easy and straight forward to use, while the PartWorks software packages were part of the Shopbot purchase and has served my purposes so far.

So far I have not really spent any extra to fill my CAD/CAM needs … that doesn't mean I won't upgrade in the future!


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## frazil

Mike
A slight clarification, Mach and LinuxCNC are examples of control software. You need that in addition to the CAD/CAM software. Cut3D is a CAM software as it has no design capabilities. Cut2D, VCarvePro and Aspire combine CAD and CAM in each package. There are many ways to generate 3D files such as Sketchup, Wings3D, Sculptris, Hexagon, Silo, Glise. In my opinion, VCarvePro is probably the best value as they have added some nice 3D functions to it.


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## bloomingtonmike

Vcarvepro is 2.5d not 3d. It does have some neat features. Get the demos of each and learn the limitations of each for your work and see if you really need aspire. Also there is a scaled down version of vcarvepro now that works with smaller machines. I do not believe you can do 4th axis turning with it. Again check the comparisons.

Frazil is correct about Mach and LinuxCNC being "control software". Mach did have some CAM features too in a plugin or maybe it was machmill - I never use those.

Control software may be bundled with a machine or a specific controller. Not always the case for sure.

If Mach is included with a new machine it is usually just the demo and are expected to buy your own full license of Mach to have it cut more than 500 lines of gcode. They may build the license into the machine cost. You will have your own .ini file if you have a full version.

Shapeoko dedicated sites and wikis might be good places to source free software and opensource software options. Their history is 3d printers and 3d printer guys want FREE or cheap. Ive also built a few 3D printers.


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## LDBecker

Found this thread through a Google search- sorry to jump in…

I am also looking at CNC machines- long time hobbiest, never enough time, etc… But I got interested in the Legacy machines because they use specialty bits along with the regular Cnc carving bits - am I saying that right? Kind of a different approach to Cnc that they claim can save significant time by using a larger, specialty bit for some parts of the carving, then switch to the smaller ones for detail if needed.

That seems significant to me - Jim, does that make sense? I see your posts on the Legacy site and here (just joined today)...
Thanks!


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## oldnovice

*LDBecker*, You can't go wrong with a Legacy machine.

I don't know what you meant by *specialty bits* as all CNCs with a spindle can use a veritable plethora of bits! The CNCs, with routers instead of spindles, can typically only use 1/4" and 1/2" shank bits with some having adapters for 3/8" bits.

In other words, anything that fits into a Legacy spindle will probably fir into any other CNC with a similar sized spindle!

For support, I believe that the manufacturers listed below:
Legacy (one of my finalists, very good customers service/reviews, made in USA)
Shopbot Tools (other models, have not had any occasion to use customer service as yet) 
Laguna (good tools, bad customer service, check this site for comments)
Shark CNC (also sold by Rockler, some very poor reviews, no word on customer service)
K2 CNC (good machines good reviews, no reviews on customer service)
CAMaster (I see these mentioned a lot on the CNC Zone site)
And, there are probably some I overlooked!

Another resource for CNC information in the CNC Zone it has a lot more CNC dedicated information and registration is free!


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## thognar

I'm an utter, shopping-for-CNC rookie too so I think I understand the *specialty bit* reference. In their videos, Legacy makes a major point of using traditional router bits along tool paths while other companies seem to demo a ball nose bit doing 3d "raster" types of cuts.

Most (all?) CNC machines can do either style of cutting if I'm learning correctly. It's really a function of what software you are using and how you are using that software.


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## OldWolfsWoodShop

To Mike: I have had my CNC for a while now, and you are correct, software is a key to successful CNC work. a good solid machine is a necessity, the software will allow you to make your creativity a reality.

I was told when I was considering a CNC that I would have a long learning curve, 12 - 15 months. I am now thinking that the learning curve will be longer, much longer. oh well, the price we pay for having wood working as a hobby.


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## jssussex

Mr Becker - What you are referring to as specialty bits are just profile bits. Be it a round over, ogee, beading, V bit etc. If you learn to use profile bits in lieu of using a carving bit (ball nose) you can reduce carving time and have exception surface finish. None of the reputable CNC Machine manufacturers have their own design software they usually recommend something like Vectrics various products but you can use any cad cam software.

Legacy does have their own CAM software for doing turnings such as the pens and spindles/newel posts.

I found that watching the video and attending the weekly training classes that Legacy provides to their customers got me up the learning curve much faster. Legacy - CNC is their core business and wow their commitment to the customer is over the top. Their product is fairly priced but not cheapest but when you add in their customer support and commitment to your success turns out to be a best buy IMHO.

Legacy also offers a free 2 days training at their facility in Utah as part of any machine purchase. I did go to Utah as part of a vacation and received my machine 3 weeks later. I carve my first sign 30 minutes after I had my machine set up in my basement and checked out. The factory training removed a ton of anxiety with running the machine. Below are some examples of my CNC work all using profile bits along with v carving. The Apple Inlay was done 7 weeks after I got my machine and the pen 8 weeks.

I also watch many of the Vectric training videos to learn techniques.

I do use Aspire but V CarvePro now supports premade 3D carving you just can't create 3D files.

























































> Found this thread through a Google search- sorry to jump in…
> 
> I am also looking at CNC machines- long time hobbiest, never enough time, etc… But I got interested in the Legacy machines because they use specialty bits along with the regular Cnc carving bits - am I saying that right? Kind of a different approach to Cnc that they claim can save significant time by using a larger, specialty bit for some parts of the carving, then switch to the smaller ones for detail if needed.
> 
> That seems significant to me - Jim, does that make sense? I see your posts on the Legacy site and here (just joined today)...
> Thanks!
> 
> - LDBecker


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## jssussex

OldWolfe, if you are struggling with the CNC you are either trying to do too complicated tasks to quickly or yu are allowing the machine and software to intimidate you.

Back up and start wth some simple text of boards carving. then enhance these and if you want to do something you haven't done before look at the Vectric online videos to get an idea of how to do the specific task. If all else fails find a fellow CNC person and hire them to do some of the design work and use it as model for you to learn how to do other similar projects.


> To Mike: I have had my CNC for a while now, and you are correct, software is a key to successful CNC work. a good solid machine is a necessity, the software will allow you to make your creativity a reality.
> 
> I was told when I was considering a CNC that I would have a long learning curve, 12 - 15 months. I am now thinking that the learning curve will be longer, much longer. oh well, the price we pay for having wood working as a hobby.
> 
> - OldWolfsWoodShop


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## OldWolfsWoodShop

To jsussex, sorry to mislead you, I am not struggling, but enjoying the process. The pure potential of the CNC is enjoyable. I use the vectric training videos and the aspire forum regularly.


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## LDBecker

Oldnovice,

Legacy makes a huge deal about using profile bits to take much of the load off the process, cutting a significant time off the carving time as well as yielding better (sharper?) results… I think that's what's being claimed… Worth looking into. They have a manufacturer, Magnate, that makes their specialty bits that are, I think, available in their conversational cam software. Shooting in the dark here… Zero experience with this, but that, along with the 5th axis turning, interests me…


> *LDBecker*, You can t go wrong with a Legacy machine.
> 
> I don t know what you meant by *specialty bits* as all CNCs with a spindle can use a veritable plethora of bits! The CNCs, with routers instead of spindles, can typically only use 1/4" and 1/2" shank bits with some having adapters for 3/8" bits.
> 
> In other words, anything that fits into a Legacy spindle will probably fir into any other CNC with a similar sized spindle!
> 
> For support, I believe that the manufacturers listed below:
> Legacy (one of my finalists, very good customers service/reviews, made in USA)
> Shopbot Tools (other models, have not had any occasion to use customer service as yet)
> Laguna (good tools, bad customer service, check this site for comments)
> Shark CNC (also sold by Rockler, some very poor reviews, no word on customer service)
> K2 CNC (good machines good reviews, no reviews on customer service)
> CAMaster (I see these mentioned a lot on the CNC Zone site)
> And, there are probably some I overlooked!
> 
> Another resource for CNC information in the CNC Zone it has a lot more CNC dedicated information and registration is free!
> 
> - oldnovice


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## LDBecker

Jim,

Yes, that's what I'm referring to. My interests move toward furniture building, as well as unique boxes and desk sets, pens, bowls and ikebana flower holders on the lathe. The ability to cut out furniture parts on a Cnc looks amazing, and the video promo on Legacy's site got my attention. 
Thank you so much for sharing examples of your work and experience.

Larry


> Mr Becker - What you are referring to as specialty bits are just profile bits. Be it a round over, ogee, beading, V bit etc. If you learn to use profile bits in lieu of using a carving bit (ball nose) you can reduce carving time and have exception surface finish. None of the reputable CNC Machine manufacturers have their own design software they usually recommend something like Vectrics various products but you can use any cad cam software.
> 
> Legacy does have their own CAM software for doing turnings such as the pens and spindles/newel posts.
> 
> I found that watching the video and attending the weekly training classes that Legacy provides to their customers got me up the learning curve much faster. Legacy - CNC is their core business and wow their commitment to the customer is over the top. Their product is fairly priced but not cheapest but when you add in their customer support and commitment to your success turns out to be a best buy IMHO.
> 
> Legacy also offers a free 2 days training at their facility in Utah as part of any machine purchase. I did go to Utah as part of a vacation and received my machine 3 weeks later. I carve my first sign 30 minutes after I had my machine set up in my basement and checked out. The factory training removed a ton of anxiety with running the machine. Below are some examples of my CNC work all using profile bits along with v carving. The Apple Inlay was done 7 weeks after I got my machine and the pen 8 weeks.
> 
> I also watch many of the Vectric training videos to learn techniques.
> 
> I do use Aspire but V CarvePro now supports premade 3D carving you just can t create 3D files.
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> Found this thread through a Google search- sorry to jump in…
> 
> I am also looking at CNC machines- long time hobbiest, never enough time, etc… But I got interested in the Legacy machines because they use specialty bits along with the regular Cnc carving bits - am I saying that right? Kind of a different approach to Cnc that they claim can save significant time by using a larger, specialty bit for some parts of the carving, then switch to the smaller ones for detail if needed.
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> That seems significant to me - Jim, does that make sense? I see your posts on the Legacy site and here (just joined today)...
> Thanks!
> 
> - LDBecker
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> - jssussex


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## oldnovice

*LDBecker*, there is not a profile bit that will fit *only* into the Legacy!

I have used most all of my router bits, both 1/2" and 1/4" bits, straight, round over, chamfer, and beading.

But I have also used, and now prefer, milling cutters as they are typically less costly, offer many more options with regard to the number of flutes cutting angles and grinds, more length options, and cutting diameters down to .00079". These bits are also available in high speed steel, solid carbide, with/without specialty coatings. I purchased three 1/16" 2 flute milling cutters from MSC Direct for less than $36.

The milling cutters allow me to machine more than wood as I have cut not only all types of wood but also brass, aluminum, copper, acrylic and ABS plastic, Corian and PaperStone (counter top material). For the counter top material I used the the Onsrud 57-910 solid carbide which has become one of my favorite bits.

My son, a certified/trained CNC machinist, used a 1/64" bit to machine playing card faces (the ACE of hearts on one side and the ACE of diamonds on the other) on a appropriately sized 1/4" thick piece of brass as a card weight.

What I am trying to tell you is that the Legacy spindle and the spindle on *any other* CNC are identical in capability. *What Legacy can supply* is specialty process steps, in either material holding/handling and/or software; things you will also learn with experience.


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## LDBecker

Hi, oldnovice,

Yes, I understood that… A collet is a collet, and a bit will fit in any machine. I guess, as you say, the process and software, which seems to have those steps and bit descriptions built in, is what interests me. I was looking at some of Legacy's online training and webinars, and they recommend using Turbocad along with their other software, and have bit descriptions for bits they had made for their machines easily accessible to users. I haven't seen anything like this from other Cnc companies…

I think I don't know enough to even ask appropriate questions - but I appreciate the efforts to educate me. There are some patient people - and talented, too…

Thanks-


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## LDBecker

Just happened on a CNC demo at my local Rockler (Torrance, CA)... I think they were using an older Shark HD 2 with a PC router body for the demo. It was put on by a couple of really nice guys who owned their own CNC machines and wanted to share their enthusiasm. I was significantly impressed ! This looks like a lot of fun… It was nice to see things patiently demonstrated… 
I had been thinking that the Shark Piranha FX would be interesting… But it is sooooooo tiny! The Z axis is pretty short- by the time you get a sacrificial board, the touch plate, and the workpiece, there isn't much room for the bit. A little discouraging, but helpful to see. 
The Shopbot Buddy is looking interesting… Something with some capacity and power… It reminds me of when I went from my Shopsmith to a Delta Unisaw… Capacity, power, precision… 
Speaking of which, almost ALL of my router bits are 1/2" or 8mm - not so with CNC usage? Wouldn't 1/4" shafts introduce chatter?

Larry

Larry


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## thognar

Only the smallest CNC machines use 1/4" cutters. You mentioned ShopBot Buddy; both the router and spindle options for the Buddy accept up to a 1/2" cutter.


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## jssussex

Mike just to clarify, I believe you met router bits with shanks up to a 1/2 inch but the cutters could go over 2 inches in a spindle.


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## oldnovice

To add some more clarity, spindles accept collets of different sizes *other* than 1/4" and 1/2". 
For example, I have 1/8", 3/16", 1/4", 3/8", and 1/2" collets and while there are other sizes available the maximum for my spindle is 1/2". Additionally, I can get metric collet if I ever want to use metric bits.

This variety of collets, horsepower and quiet operation, set the spindle apart from a router.


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## CopperTree

OldWolfe, how has the Professor CNC been working for you? I've been looking for some time and have also looked at that machine in Calgary. Hoping I could find a used one but no luck so far.


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## OldWolfsWoodShop

Hi Coppertree, the professor is working fine. Have had no issues to date. The frame work is heavy enough to minimize vibration. The aluminum table is flat. I had a stand made for the unit versus purchasing the stand that Canadian Wiodworker supplies. My stand is heavier, so assists in dampening vibration.

If you wish, I would be pleased to give you a demo at my shop. Forward a private message to arrange.


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## Proflemoi

I am having that classic struggle… WHICH CNC Machine to buy? I was looking at the Shark HD3 but after having read more, it seems that may not be the best choice (Many say it's made of plastic and more of a toy rather than a serious woodworking tool.) but that 50" cutting range is attractive as I would like to some day make some furniture.

So now I am looking more towards the Legacy Explorer or the Shopbot Desktop. (I would LOVE to know what the Shopbot MAX is going to cost, anyone know?)

Shopbot seems to get great reviews, but the smaller table is a concern for me. (25×18") I have read great things about Legacy Explorer but then read that Legacy has less than stellar customer service. Specifically I am looking to do some inly work (Lots of inlay actually) make signs, cabinet doors, lots of smaller projects and eventually some furniture design and production, etc… accuracy is important to me as well. ANY input would be much appreciated!


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## oldnovice

In my humble opinion, you can't go wrong with a Shopbot! If you check the previous posts in this forum you will find that I have a Shopbot Buddy with a 2.2 Hp spindle and I am very happy with i!

The Shopbot MAX is new and it may not be on their price list, link below!

The Shopbot price list is a PDF, available at

But the MAXl is fairly new so you best bet, and most accurate, is to fill out their Web form


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## bloomingtonmike

You guys checking out probotix too for a smaller non shopbot/cammaster option. I talked with the owner Saturday in Peoria IL and checked out one of his machines at a Makerfaire Peoria was having. Looks like a nice non industrial machine that is very capable - It was an aluminum extrusion and 1/2" aluminum plate machine. He had one that was about 3X4 at the show with a 4th axis setup on the right and it was also cutting some dovetails on the front left. He said he alos offers a setup with a 2.2kw spindle. When you buy their machines you buy the computer, software, controller - everything. No option to piece meal it together he said. Makes it simpler to support when you KNOW what it was setup to do and how to quickly reload it back to default.


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## jssussex

Proflemon wrote 


> I am having that classic struggle… WHICH CNC …..
> 
> ....I have read great things about Legacy Explorer but then read that Legacy has less than stellar customer service.


As for customer service at Legacy, they have a online form and response has usually been hours and for questions most week they have to online training sessions with an open Q&A at the end. They also have a login feature so they can connect to you machines pc and evaluate problems
So from my experience over the past 2 years there customer service is 5 star.



> Specifically I am looking to do some inly work (Lots of inlay actually) make signs, cabinet doors, lots of smaller projects and eventually some furniture design and production, etc… accuracy is important to me as well. ANY input would be much appreciated!


The image of the Apple logo inlay I previously posted in this thread I did this the first 30 days after I got my machine. Legacy's online training and videos exceed anything anyone else is doing. Contact John Hennen there and he'll clarify these question. This company is dedicated to customer satisfaction from my point of view. They also are at the Woodworking shows or they will give you a free full demo at their factory.


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## Proflemoi

Somethings others have told me is that the Legacy is not as geared towards the 2D, 2.5 D types of things as the SB Desktop, Jssussex your Apple would seem to contradict that statement (excellent work BTW) ... I guess I should have also said that I am not limiting myself to just a Shopbot or a Legacy model either. For me the ideal setup would have a 3×4' ability, be made in the USA, have EXCELLENT customer service and be well made… figure I could do just about anything with that… the SB Buddy is a BIT out of my price range, would love to have something like that. I am a bit worried the SB Desktop is really going to be too small as I want to start producing furniture parts with it. The other issue for me and the Legacy is that it does not come with the Vectric Software…. I have been working with the Free Aspire program and would like to utilize that… so I have to figure in another $2K if I go the route of the Legacy… choices choices choices :/ Total budget to get started is around $6500 (Not counting the router and tooling)


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## oldnovice

*Proflemoi*, you might find a used one that fits you needs on the CNC Zone Web site.


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## jssussex

Proflemoi, Legacy has a trade up program where if you realize you under bought they will take it back in trade for a larger machine. I believe it is nearly 100% the first year. That trade-in is then reconditioned and sold at a discount. John Hennen can tell you if they have any.

1. Buy more than you can afford = Less buyer remorse. 
2. Don't use a router, get a water cooled spindle, your ears will thank you and the power is amazing and the speed is controlled in the program instead of manually guessing.
3. Aspire is for custom 3D carving, the newest version of V-carve-Pro allows you to carve premade 3D. 
objects and Vcarve Pro can be upgraded to Aspire at a later date. Aspires free test program is crippled and will only carve their included sample. You can't save anything you design and reopen it in the official version.
4. Legacy has their own program for turning spindles in addition to what you can do with Aspire.
5. Go to you tube and search for legacywoodworking, They have a ridiculous number of videos covering about every cnc woodworking topic.

I get nothing for my endorsement, I don't work for them, I'm just a satisfied customer.

You can contact me directly through my FB page. https://www.facebook.com/HeritageCarving


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## Proflemoi

Thanks Jim…. I have really narrowed down my choice to the Explorer Legacy 2 or the Probotix Meteor. I want to eventually run Aspire but given my budget will likely start out with V-Carve Pro V8. Legacy uses the Mach 3 Control software and the Probotix uses the Linux CNC controller. Your thoughts and opinions will be HIGHLY appreciated as I am about 48 hours away from making this purchase! I am excited but nervous all at the same time… but I am PSYCHED to get started in the world of CNC to increase my business.


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## jssussex

Proflemoi
I don't know about probotmix or the Linux interface. Basically once I purchased Proflemoi the Legacy CNC I stop my research.

What I can say is that the the Mach 3 has been around a long time and legacy has created a custom screen dedicated to their machine so if you look at the standard Mach 3 interface it doesn't look like what comes loaded on you Legacy laptop. For the operation I have a dedicated laptop in my shop with the Legacy/mach3 and Aspire. I also
have Aspire on my person computer. It's legal because only one copy is use at a time.

I'm including a picture of Legacy's Mach3 screen interface.





































If you have other questions you can PM me at my FB website Https://facebook.com/HeritageCarving


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## Proflemoi

Jim,

What are you running today for a CNC Machine?

ProfLemoi


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## Proflemoi

Another thought too that I have to consider is speed… For example, I have heard that many of the desktop models take forever to cut things… since i am looking to put this into a production situation I am wondering if the Explorer or the Probotix is going to be fast enough to make a reasonable profit. If it takes an entire day to cut say a Celtic wrapped cribbage board, I can't imagine how I could make any money with it. I would be running a 2 1/4 HP Porter Cable router on either setup… really could use some input on cut rates and the ability to produce things at a reasonable speed.


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## jssussex

I'm running an arty 58. I believe (but you should confirm with legacy) that the x and y feeds are up to 300 ipm. Anything that Legacy makes is going to be commercial speeds.

I would recommend a water cooled spindle over the router. The noise level is so much less and the speed is controlled through the software. Thus you can adjust the rpms on the fly. You will have to pause the machine to adjust the rpm on a router and then it'd only a guess on the rpm. The water cooled also has a range of 3000 - 24000 rpm. It also won't wear like a router that's not designed for long continuous runs.

I did a cribbage and took me only a few minutes to cut all the peg holes. I don't think speed will be an issue with v carve and profile carving.


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## Proflemoi

Jim,

How long do you think it might take to make something like this. The cribbage board is about 16" across.


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## jssussex

I belive this is made in pieces not out of one solid piece. The sharp inside corners are a clue. But cut time is probably 2-3 hours if you are smart with tool paths and layout.

But there is a lot of prep time and finishin beyond the carve time.

Many signs I do take more time in prep and final finish than the carving takes.


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## Proflemoi

Good Call Jim… yes… this is made out of 8 pieces I believe… the celtic wraps are 4 of them and the curved cribbage holed sections are the other 4. So about 2-3 hours on the Explorer… hmmm interesting.

On another note, I had a great conversation with Chris at Legacy today… I was leaning towards the Probotix but after talking with him (and you) I am back on the fence again… but now leaning a bit towards the Legacy. Man this is a HARD choice. SO MANY VARIABLES. 

Your input is VERY much appreciated.

Proflemoi


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## jssussex

If you can afford the time and travel expense, legacy provides 2 days of free training at their factory. I was carving 15 minutes after I started my machine up because I went to the training. It removed a ton of anxiety.


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## Proflemoi

I live in CT…. wish I could make it out there for the training


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## jssussex

The upside they have nearly 200 videos on you tube from beginner to advanced plus the weekly classes with the open q&a sessions. Legacy on you tube


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## bloomingtonmike

CNC router Cut speeds and CNC router rapid speeds are totally two different speeds. I rapid over 1000ipm but my cuts are all defined by the wood, the bits, and the depth of cut and the finish I want. My machine is welded box steel and aluminum extrusion and I run a 2.2kw water cooled spindle. Your machine needs to be rigid/solid if you want to move a big spindle or router around with precision at speed. Also most chinese spindles should not be ran slower than 6000rpm. That will not be a factor for router bits anyway as you will most not likely go below 16000rpm for a router bit. You typically want to keep the spindle motor in the 100-400hz range which is 6000-24000rpm. Specs of your spindle should be checked.


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## Proflemoi

Given all the input I think I am going with the Legacy Explorer 2. It has a welded steel frame and from Jim's input seems to be a fine CNC company. Most likely will pull the trigger on this HUGE purchase in the next week or so. Legacy is offering free shipping and some other incentives so it looks like the time to buy is now  Then the REAL fun begins!


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## jssussex

Bloomingtonmike is correct, but I use drill bit to make precision holes, I have a full set of collets, so these bits aren't designed for high speed. Also a sanding mop.can be used on the machine. So I have taken the speed down.

As for feed rates and speed you are correct and yes mass and welded frame are a must if you want to hold tolerances.


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## Proflemoi

That was the final piece of input I needed, the Probotics is made from Aluminum, which is better than the Shark HD3 design, but given the support from Legacy, the Steal construction, the Explorer 2 looks like a pretty good production machine to start out with in my small shop. Can't wait to see what I can do with it. Just WISH I could find a way to get Aspire for a better price than 2K. EEEkkkkk.


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## oldnovice

*Proflemoi*, I also whish that Aspire was less than $2K, just can't squeeze that much out of a retired ones budget!

Since you are going to take that final step you will be joining a group of CNC enthusiasts that have a lot of fun not only in working with wood in a new way but learning new things about computers, design software, cut software and the thrill of putting that all together for a project.
Have fun!


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## jssussex

Vcarve pro version 8 is an excelent value and it gives you a.lot of features including the ability to.carve 3d models you just can't create 3d. They also give you a migration path so you can apply some of the cost of vcarve pro to Aspire if you choose to upgrade later.


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## Proflemoi

The one thing that really appeals to me about CNC wood work is that if you can dream it up… chances are you can make it. That in itself is rather provocative for me. It is also great to connect with a community of "like minded" or "Like interested" people… so for me it's a win win


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## Proflemoi

Spindles - Legacy wants $1250 for their spindle kit… I am wondering if anyone has gone with a 3rd Party spindle setup? I see numerous spindles on eBay for $280 BUT you do get what you pay for. Legacy uses a Chinese spindle on the Arty and the Legacy… so just wondering what other think about this…


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## Proflemoi

Another spindle question - What are the practical advantages and disadvantages for Air cooled vs water cooled spindles?


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## thognar

> Spindles - Legacy wants $1250 for their spindle kit… I am wondering if anyone has gone with a 3rd Party spindle setup? I see numerous spindles on eBay for $280 BUT you do get what you pay for. Legacy uses a Chinese spindle on the Arty and the Legacy… so just wondering what other think about this…
> 
> - Proflemoi


I've been learning about and shopping for a CNC machine for 6ish months now so can offer a couple observations, but no first-hand experience. The cost difference for various spindle brands is significant. The Chinese/eBay spindles can be purchased for sub-$500. The HSD Italian spindles run a few thousand for the same size/power. Are they worth it? Beats me. Is a Festool router worth triple the prices of a Milwaukee? Maybe. Maybe Festool green is just cooler.

The least expensive Chinese/eBay spindles are ER-11, which limits you to a 1/4" chuck. ER-20 and ER-25 can support 1/2" bits. The ER-20 Chinese/eBay spindles seem to land closer to $600 and don't include the pump for the water cooled models. Typically. So.. add in shipping and a pump and you're probably hitting closer to $800 for a Chinese ER-20 spindle. So, $1250 for an installed, integrated, tested and supported spindle from Legacy seems pretty sane.

Water-cooled vs air-cooled: Ask the question to a vendor of air-cooled spindles and air-cooled are better. Ask the question to a vendor of water-cooled spindles and, you guessed it, water cooled are better. Both are rated for many hours of continuous, hard use so perhaps either is swell. I certainly haven't found any hard data that shows one brand/type is better than another.


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## Proflemoi

Good input Mike… It looks to me that the air cooled might be less setup, i.e. no tubes, water/antifreeze, etc…


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## thognar

Love this thread. Have learned lots here. A few questions.

First, I've sent info requests to Legacy a few times and never heard from them. They stopped posting those super helpful videos to YouTube about 2 month ago too. Add to this the various rumors about the company that float about and I have to wonder if they are solid. Anyone have any insight into the company?

Second, a big cost for CNC machines is the software. I've tried to build a list of available software, but it's complicated since they're are so many overlapping products and differing use cases. So…. I would like to ask those of you that use CNC machines for woodworking for your software experiences. What has worked for your use cases and what are those specific use cases? What software has not worked for your needs? Not a "Which is the best software" question, as there are many good choices, but rather what works for you. Thanks!

Finally, I'm leaning towards a CAMaster Stinger I or II. Hard on my budget, but the company seems to have a good reputation and a very helpful user community. Shopbot and Legacy are both interesting choices for my use cases too. Probotix seems too lightweight for the tasks I have in mind, but looks good for lighter work. So….. I would like to solicit input on any CAMaster experience.

Thanks! Mike


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## oldnovice

I have a 2.2 HP HSD, Italian, air cooled spindle and I am very happy with it! The first thing I noticed was how quiet it compared to a router.

I have six ER25 collets which covers most of the bits I use from Onsrud, Niagara, others, and I still do use my router bits from Eagless America, Freud, Amana, and some others.

Long before I got the CNC, one of our jocks, Roger Clark, or REX, (now deceased), suggested end mills because they cost less, have more varieties (# flutes/finishes), material (HSS/carbide), more size options, and available locally from Grainger, McMaster-Carr, and Western Tool. A lot quicker and no shipping charges.


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## OldWolfsWoodShop

hi Mike, funny, I was watching a Legacy video, that they uploaded a YouTube video less than 1 hour ago.

As far as software, I purchased my cnc a few months ago, and love it. The software I purchased is the Aspire V8 package. I do not have experience with other CNC software packages, I do have some experience with drafting software. We actually use Bobcad at our shop. my experience to date with Aspire is nothing less than WOW. The package is simple to use on a basic level, but offers more complex options that I am learning to use. The vectric web site has many training videos, as well you tube has many tutorials. The package is worth the cost.


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## bloomingtonmike

Mike, besides The camheads forum there a bunch of owners of cammaster machines at sawmillcreek forum as well. They like them very much. The machines sure look awesome.

I have also seen the larger probotix in person. It is a beefy machine and not lightweight in the least. This is no fireball. Make sure you are comparing apples to apples when selecting a machine.

Ask any vendor to get you in touch with owners of the machine you are interested in, in your area. Id not spend that kind of money on a a machine I had not seen.

Spindles/VFD/ Wire etc.

I think a big part of adding a spindle to a CNC router is the choice of VFD to power it. The cheap ebay solutions have cheap VFDs. I added mine by buying my spindle from Andy at Ugracnc and he sends tested spindles and sends you a video of the spindle before you buy it. I was worried about junk bearings and runout. Andy sent me a video of my spindle running on his bench with an indicator on it. I have not seen that level of service of any spindle vendor. I went water cooled. I added a pump and radiator setup from a water cooled computer/PC setup. I bought my tubing and fittings from McMastercar. The VFD I choose was a Hitachi X200 (now discontinued). I also us Igus chainflex wiring that is designed for constant motion and will not kink and twist/break the conductors. Also I used igus chain to keep my wiring orderly during the x and Y motions.

Also remember if you buy your own VFD and spindle you then have to figure out the wiring and setup the communication for its speed and power and direction control (PWM or madbus etc) from within mach or linuxcnc.

A big part of the noise of a router is a cooling fan. I preferred not to have the fan in my spindle. My water cooling setup uses silent fans on the radiator. The only noise is the whir of the spindle turning. The rel noise though is the bit in the material. That you will have no matter what you do.

You can use left hand bits with a spindle as you can reverse the rotation. M4 gcode will allow you to test if your vendor wired your spindle up to allow for reverse rotation.

Software

Vcarve pro is amazing. It meets my sign, flat work needs. If you plan to sell items you will quickly realize how easy it makes setting up your work and generating gcode and getting you cutting.

Mach is great for a post processor as there are sooo many people using it. At $175 I felt like they gave it away.

If you want cheap software I advise you to research cheap open source based cnc machines. Those machines are inexpensive and therefore many of their owners don't want to drop huge coin for the software either. You may find some good solutions for you researching the shapeoko type machines and their wikis for software solutions. Many will have the CAM separate from the CAD/Drawing of the vectors so make sure you get both and that your CAM selection can generate gcode to match the post processor you choose.

I would advise any newbie to Computers/CNC to definitely try a Vcarve product. Watch their training videos and download their demo. They have a sweet suite!

If you a student look for education versions of inventor and hsm's CAM for inventor. Free for 3 years and will do 2.5d.

My buddy likes BOBCAD and its CAM but I have not used it. They haggle on the price - he haggled for several weeks to get the best deal.


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## thognar

> hi Mike, funny, I was watching a Legacy video, that they uploaded a YouTube video less than 1 hour ago.


Ha! As soon as my open my e-mouth. The Legacy guy must have taken some time off over the Summer. His videos are the best how-to woodworking videos out there.

Thanks for the feedback on Aspire too!


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## jssussex

Mike you said..


> Love this thread. Have learned lots here. A few questions.
> 
> First, I ve sent info requests to Legacy a few times and never heard from them. They stopped posting those super helpful videos to YouTube about 2 month ago too. Add to this the various rumors about the company that float about and I have to wonder if they are solid. Anyone have any insight into the company?
> 
> ....


I can't respond to legacy not responding to your request for info. As for the rumor I've heard that repeated for over 5 years. What I do know is that they were at the Woodworking shows the last 4 years, they we're in Las Vegas for the tool show this summer, and they've added staff. So in the words of Mark Twain 
"The reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated."

Most summers they slow down on the training and videos because of the tool.show and staff vacations.

I think they are doing well.


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## bearkatwood

I am looking for one too! I am hoping to find one with a table around 24"x 48" and have enough muscle to rout out my contoured chair seats. Any ideas? Thanks


----------



## bearkatwood

> Love this thread. Have learned lots here. A few questions.
> 
> First, I ve sent info requests to Legacy a few times and never heard from them. They stopped posting those super helpful videos to YouTube about 2 month ago too. Add to this the various rumors about the company that float about and I have to wonder if they are solid. Anyone have any insight into the company?
> 
> Second, a big cost for CNC machines is the software. I ve tried to build a list of available software, but it s complicated since they re are so many overlapping products and differing use cases. So…. I would like to ask those of you that use CNC machines for woodworking for your software experiences. What has worked for your use cases and what are those specific use cases? What software has not worked for your needs? Not a "Which is the best software" question, as there are many good choices, but rather what works for you. Thanks!
> 
> Finally, I m leaning towards a CAMaster Stinger I or II. Hard on my budget, but the company seems to have a good reputation and a very helpful user community. Shopbot and Legacy are both interesting choices for my use cases too. Probotix seems too lightweight for the tasks I have in mind, but looks good for lighter work. So….. I would like to solicit input on any CAMaster experience.
> 
> Thanks! Mike
> 
> - Mike





> Love this thread. Have learned lots here. A few questions.
> 
> First, I ve sent info requests to Legacy a few times and never heard from them. They stopped posting those super helpful videos to YouTube about 2 month ago too. Add to this the various rumors about the company that float about and I have to wonder if they are solid. Anyone have any insight into the company?
> 
> Second, a big cost for CNC machines is the software. I ve tried to build a list of available software, but it s complicated since they re are so many overlapping products and differing use cases. So…. I would like to ask those of you that use CNC machines for woodworking for your software experiences. What has worked for your use cases and what are those specific use cases? What software has not worked for your needs? Not a "Which is the best software" question, as there are many good choices, but rather what works for you. Thanks!
> 
> Finally, I m leaning towards a CAMaster Stinger I or II. Hard on my budget, but the company seems to have a good reputation and a very helpful user community. Shopbot and Legacy are both interesting choices for my use cases too. Probotix seems too lightweight for the tasks I have in mind, but looks good for lighter work. So….. I would like to solicit input on any CAMaster experience.
> 
> Thanks! Mike
> 
> - Mike


I just got an add fro a leguna cnc.. A bit pricey($11,900 for a 4'x8'), but it might be an option. As far as legacy goes, I bought a 4' mill from them about 15 years ago and it has served me well. I have never needed to have it repaired and it is just now starting to show signs that it might need some work. I use it on an almost daily basis. They build them simplistically and they don't over complicate the design which can seem like a tinker toy at times, but they work well.


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## bloomingtonmike

Brian,

If you are confident you can source your own parts and learn all the tech support you will ever need yourself then Laguna would be a thought. They flip designs so much there is never going to be a lasting support network from Laguna on their machines. Its too easy for them to paint an import machine and push it in and back out their dock. Trust in the big CNC boys or just build one yourself and pocket all the savings. At least then you saved money by being your own tech support.

Most any cnc with enough Z travel can route out your seat contours. In fact doing it you will probably use a clearence tool path with a roughing bit (1/2 or 3/4) and then a small dia ball nose bit to finish pass route your contours.


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## thognar

> I can t respond to legacy not responding to your request for info. As for the rumor I ve heard that repeated for over 5 years. What I do know is that they were at the Woodworking shows the last 4 years, they we re in Las Vegas for the tool show this summer, and they ve added staff. So in the words of Mark Twain
> "The reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated."
> 
> Most summers they slow down on the training and videos because of the tool.show and staff vacations.
> 
> I think they are doing well.
> 
> - jssussex


Great news, Jim. I sent off another request and will call if I don't hear back via email. Would like to get the details on the Personal Arty to compare with other machines in its class.

Thanks, Mike


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## jssussex

I think the Explorer replaced the personal Arty, but I'm not sure their current evolution of their product line has pushed them to the Explorer as their entry version.


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## thognar

> I think the Explorer replaced the personal Arty, but I m not sure their current evolution of their product line has pushed them to the Explorer as their entry version.


Well, Jim, the Arty Personal is still on their web site. The Mini Arty is half removed ,(shows up in some places, has broken links in other places).

Cheers


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## bearkatwood

> Brian,
> 
> If you are confident you can source your own parts and learn all the tech support you will ever need yourself then Laguna would be a thought. They flip designs so much there is never going to be a lasting support network from Laguna on their machines. Its too easy for them to paint an import machine and push it in and back out their dock. Trust in the big CNC boys or just build one yourself and pocket all the savings. At least then you saved money by being your own tech support.
> 
> Most any cnc with enough Z travel can route out your seat contours. In fact doing it you will probably use a clearence tool path with a roughing bit (1/2 or 3/4) and then a small dia ball nose bit to finish pass route your contours.
> 
> - bloomingtonmike


I figured on doing the finishing work on the seats, I just can't keep up with the orders and need to be able to hog them out quickly and without the backache. So do you have a favorite for service to recommend? I have a carvewright cnc thingy and sometimes think that was a very impulsive purchase, though I do use it.


----------



## JohnHen

Mike,
This is John from legacy, author of about half of those training videos you talked about. These classes are live training classes that happen every tuesday and thursday. If you would like to be notified via email of each class and attend them live let me know and I will get you onto the email list for the classes. The classes are usually about 30 mins and the Q&A after about another 30 mins. Each class is taught with a technique in mind. We do not just want you to repeat whatever project we are teaching but instead be able to apply what is taught in your own projects.

You can call me at work if you would like to get invloved with the live versions of the classes you can email me directly at [email protected] or call me at 800-279-4570.

If anyone else would like to get involved in the FREE live online classes let me know
John


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## bloomingtonmike

Brian I am the wrong person to ask about CNC services honestly . I built my own Joes Hybrid Cast 4×4 CNC machine myself 100%. I am my own service and I can source every part or a replacement part on my machine. I really do not like counting on folks that are third part salesman. I work at nights and on weekends and that is exactly when most of the places are closed. I want to order a part at midnight on Saturday and have it start shipping over the weekend or first thing Monday not start my troubleshooting on Monday. The other benefit is I can pick amazing parts for my machine that I do not have break at all.

That being said what Legacy just did above speaks volumes to me. That and the Cammaster guys seem amazing on sawmillcreekt and I really like many of those owners. If I had the big cash and had to BUY a NEW machine, a cammaster would be my choice. Its built like a tank. I have not seen any of the machines listed here that really come close but I need to see a couple in person to know for sure. Of course it would cost as much as a used truck so it is priced more than these machines as well. If i needed to go smaller I live too close to Probotix not to have them help me out (45 miles away). Factor in all the "support" factors - location, availability, business proven track record, reviews, you seeing one in person, access to help from then in off hours, how available the MFG reps are on forums where members can also help, information and documentation about the controls, etc. I cant stress enough how much the user community helps support CNC machines and their function of sub $20K machines. If a MFG lists nothing about their controls and settings you are going to be at their mercy for the life of the machine. If they drop it and parts they drop you. Also you want a standard control to follow a standard POST to ensure software will be available for the life of your machine.

For serious folks who will use these machines seriously, trust me when I tell you these machines pay for themselves. I built mine in 2011 and I have easily paid my 52"X62"X8" steel and aluminum rack and pinion v rail v bearing machine with vacuum clamping and water cooled spindle back at least 5 times and this is not my full time job. It paid for a 4500 lb CNC knee mill I retrofitted with amazing controls and some other metal tools (couple engine lathes). Point is the money is there to be made if you want to find it so don't short change yourself on a small lightweight machine. If you do you will most likely give up or want to upgrade in a year or so and prob not recoup much or that retail coin you are spending on a tiny machine. A buddy was wanting to build his third machine. That was my first machine - why live through all his upgrade path too. So far I have only added more machines (1050 knee mill retrofit and 3d printer build) not replaced my router.

I really encourage you guys to go put your hands on the models you are thinking about using. Seriously. Take a small trip and go see it. If the travel is too far the support probably is as well. Run them fast and hard and have them tested to see what they can really do. Walk in with ideas on what you want it to do and dream modestly big. Pretty web pics do not show use and speeds. Even a lot of the youtube videos have the speeds adjusted or there are fast forwards in the video. Also you need to physically see the footprint to map out if it fits your shop.

I am open to anyone in central IL or surrounding areas if you want to see my machines. They are DIY but I can teach you what to look for in a build of a mfg or whomever.


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## bearkatwood

Mike,
Thanks so much for the info. I am kind of on the edge of the world and even to go get decent lumber I have to drive 3 hours. I don't know if I will be able to try one before I buy.? Thanks


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## Proflemoi

Right on Mike….

You really make an interesting case for building one of these machines… but of course the questions to ask are:

1. How practical is it for a Noob?
2. How much $$$ should one expect to put into a machine with 52×62x8 measurements (Impressive BTW)
3. How long did it take to make your unit?
4. How is it for accuracy and commercial speeds?

Really liked your post… excellent.


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## bearkatwood

Don't forget… How can someone who is not an engineer or mechanically inclined put one together? That would be me.. I can glue the hell out of some wood, but I suck with a wrench.


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## thognar

> Mike,
> This is John from legacy, author of about half of those training videos you talked about. These classes are live training classes that happen every tuesday and thursday. If you would like to be notified via email of each class and attend them live let me know and I will get you onto the email list for the classes. The classes are usually about 30 mins and the Q&A after about another 30 mins. Each class is taught with a technique in mind. We do not just want you to repeat whatever project we are teaching but instead be able to apply what is taught in your own projects.
> 
> You can call me at work if you would like to get invloved with the live versions of the classes you can email me directly at [email protected] or call me at 800-279-4570.
> 
> If anyone else would like to get involved in the FREE live online classes let me know
> John
> 
> - JohnHen


John,

Glad I was able to speak to you this morning. I appreciate the time you took to answer my questions and go deep on some of the answers. Looking forward to seeing a Legacy CNC machine in person.

Your training videos are excellent, probably the best in the field.

regards,
Mike


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## bloomingtonmike

To start here is the short - its cheaper to do, you get a lot for your money - but it may cost you more in sweat and you might fail.

I built a Joes Hybrid CNC machine. You buy into his plans and get access to a forum. At the time I did it it was $100 buy in. I got 22 pages or so worth of cad line drawings and bill of materials, the images in 3d format to look at on the computer/electronically, and the forum access granted. On the site are a number of builds of a few different machine designs he has had. There were about 20 people with awesome documented builds and about 8 or 9 active builds at the time being documenting. There are really no instructions so you basicilly buy raw materials and look a the drawings and get to work. At one point I remember having about two grand worth of parts on the floor and thinking I sure hope this works. Its not a kit build folks. Cut drill and tap. I spent about $3500 and had my 1st version of my machine working and cutting - that was an original hybrid build. Rack and pinion X and Y run by Nema23s, Gecko G540 controller, two axis for Y slaved, and a 8" Z axis from Velox (their name today). I originally used a Unistrut base but a year later I tore it down and went to a 2" box steel welded base. At that time I upgraded to my current carriages to castcnc carriages and sold the hybrid designed carriages - upgrade was about $1500 but I recouped some. 3rd year I did a spindle upgrade which cost me about a grand but again I sold my old parts so less than a grand. I can go on and on about the build but wont unless folks ask. It took me 30 or so days for my first build. Upgrade #1 Which was a tear down and reassemble was a week. Spindle I did in 3 days. I am a crazy tool dude though so know that.

To answer the can you do it questions with questions:
Are you research crazy?
Can you look at something and figure out what to do?
Are you careful enough drilling metal?
Can you turn raw materials into working parts
Are you good at electricity - can you wire up a power supply and switches?
Do you understand computers enough to get a controller working via mach and the comm of your choice?
Do you mind ordering a ton of materials and electronic parts and gobs of hardware?

There is another option:
cncrouterparts!

My buddy had a welded stand pre made
He paid me to build his controller so that was done before we started
The two of us had his machine jogging in 9 hours! It is a sweet kit. It is pricey but awesome. His is also considered a 4X4 machine. Their prices have gone up but their machines are nicer now too.

So how well does my machine work.

No way would I trade my machine for a Stinger II. I can easily rapid way over 1000 inches per minute. I can cut at any speed I want. The bits will break before my machine does. My level of resolution is 10,000 steps per inch. Wood is way less precise than my machine. I have added a second G540 to may machine which added 4 more axis to my control - for a total of 8. I built my own 3d printer head for my machine even though it is really not practical to run the machine for that. I am ready for a 4th axis lathe. My spindle's VFD is controlled via modbus through mach - I can reverse rotation under gcode control. I have a regenerative blower vacuum pump for table vacuum clamping and a manifold I built with 4 zones. That is the beauty of DIY. Once you figure it out no one controls what you can do or upgrade. You know all the parts and can fix anything and you recognize problems and symptoms. You also know how to maintain it as you built it. Building with raw materials you are in 100% control how beefy it is or how cheap it is.

Folks it is not for everyone. No one will do this for you. You get questions answered hopefully but it is all on you. The Joes forum was amazing and that $100 was soooo worth it. Joe rocks and builders of his machine are now friends.

Ive seen guys build one with a drill press and a few hand and hand power tools. You more you have the easier it might be.

One last thing - folks are asking what I do with my machines. 
All I do is fill needs. Online and locally. I see things people need made or that are not being made by MFG anymore and I make them. I have a bunch of "friends" online that know I have a machine and I get asked to make stuff. I make parts for other tools as well. With a well outfitted shop there is really nothing you can make.

bloomingtonmike is my youtube profile - tons of videos out there - https://www.youtube.com/user/bloomingtonmike/videos

Also have a lot of pics on my builds on photobucket - In a number of folders - http://s39.photobucket.com/user/BloomingtonMike/library/?sort=3&page=1

Here is a cool video I made of the DIY cnc router and my retrofitted knee mill running - 




Folks very sorry about these long replies. I love it and my passion boils over. If folks want to talk about this via the phone PM me. I have done a lot of build logs if you search bloomingtonmike you will probably find them. I love showing people how to build them too. I am building a new shop to make doing this stuff in person easier - I put up a 40X64X16 pole barn last year and am finishing the inside myself. I am building a makerspace of my own called mikiespace


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## oldnovice

*Mike*, it is good to hear from that side, home brew versus purchased, CNC. I worked in electronics/programming for over 40+ years and the experience of building it yourself can't be overstated. Knowing what you put in, for what purpose, what it is capable of, and then watch it do what you tell it to do is a feeling that is hard to match.

I remember the first time I had an IBM main frame follow my Fortran instructions, what a thrill even though I didn't build it, it did exactly what I told it to do! That's how I got hooked in my career!


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## Shadowrider

Since I got laid off I've been delayed in getting a CNC so I revisited this thread to find some good added info. This is the one I'm buying, because I can add a 4th axis later.

http://www.probotix.com/CNC-ROUTERS/V90-MK2


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## oldnovice

*Shadowrider*, there is nothing wrong with your selection but most, if not all CNC routers, will accept a 4th axis, either directly, from the same manufacturer or some other source including *homebrew*.

Just make sure that the post processor, specific for you CNC, includes or can be upgraded for the 4th axis.


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