# Is this WE Jocks or ME Jocks?



## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I urge everyone to consider the value of everything they post to LJ. Is it really beneficial to the site or not. It is really rather pointless to continuing rehashing the points made in numerous political threads since non-shop debuted. If we let it, it will only get worse in the coming year. I apologize to all for allowing myself to be drawn into these debates.

I have always been active and informed, eager to educate and a champion of the down trodden; generous to a fault. Prior to Rich's post calling for ignoring the numerous political rants and the events with Autumn and T-Chisel I had begun to withdraw from those threads.

I have had many PMs thanking and encouraging me over the last couple of years. It is truly time to put LJ back to the site I found. We need to return to and adhere to the standards Karson and the other early members set.


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## grizzman (May 10, 2009)

good post topa….....i personally do not go into the political posts, and love lumberjocks for the wood working place that it is, i love the idea made here and hope it will generate a better feeling here, when things sometimes get hairy…so here is to lumberjocks, a wood working web site….cheers


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## bernwood (Aug 19, 2010)

I'm with you Bob. I enjoyed this "Non Sop Talk" forum at the beginning before it got hot with politics. I especially appreciated the forum when my wife and I (36 years today) were traveling cross country this past summer. You followed us and gave us some good advice along with a few other folks. That's when I became a LJ friend with you.

But since the political debate started heating up, I haven't checked out this forum at all. I got a notice about Rich's post and now yours'. Hang in there buddy and thank God you don't live in NH. Politics has already ruined my landscape and those damn signs will be there until Jan when they change colors for the general election. "First in the nation" has a price not to mention our phone.

Enough with politics since I have a lifeI hope you and your family are doing fine and if you ever get that 5th wheel up here in NH, look us up. And if I don't answer a knock on my door, try my workshop door… cheers!


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## superstretch (Jan 10, 2011)

People definitely need to be conscientious about what they're posting and what they're commenting on.. ignoring troll-alicious posts is a good practice. Flagging abuse is also a good thing.

My first love on here are the woodworking projects, then blogs, then shop-related forums. Non-shop talk is last on my list and the content is ridiculously small (stats on google reader confirm it), yet it generates the most buzz. Lately, there have been more anti-politics posts than political content.. Which I suppose one could categorize that as being political (in the LJ sphere).

Regardless of whether I like the political stuff or not, I'm not going to ruin it for people who feel the opposite. Both domains can exist as long as people take a chill pill.

I've advocated this before, but it bears repeating:
What has helped me manage content and posts is running the RSS feeds through Google Reader. This way, I don't miss a single post. You can also filter out posts or only subscribe to a certain subset of posts.

1. All Posts

2. Projects only
3. Blogs only
4. Reviews only
5. Forum Topics only

If you wanted to skip everything but the forum, subscribe to 2-4 in Google Reader. Not only is it a more efficient way to read content on LJ, you can filter what you want.


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

This is my official signature on this petition. I agree.


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## patron (Apr 2, 2009)

well said bob

i don't comment there anymore either

with LJ's being free to join
many internet feeders
seem to gravitate here

and post whatever they feel like
as if that is going to make some difference

sadly these people are not doer's
they seem to be whiners


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## SCOTSMAN (Aug 1, 2008)

I agree this site needs to be back to normal I.e the way it once was .We now have too many new jocks set hellbent on troublemaking,or disrupting what we have earned .Or am I wrong?Alistair


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## superstretch (Jan 10, 2011)

@Scotsman - eternally the devil's advocate, which jocks would those be? Also, what exactly has been 'earned'?


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## ellen35 (Jan 1, 2009)

Count me in too, Bob.


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## richgreer (Dec 25, 2009)

We've had a few bumps along the way and we are going over one now. Yet, this is a great site and I sincerely hope it stays that way. Thank you for your post.

May I add one more point. This is not a US only site. There are many LJs from other countries and I think that is great. I don't see our friends from other countries making political statements about their country or the US. Respect for these LJs is another good reason to restrain from political talk on this site.


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## dbhost (Jul 20, 2009)

I don't know if this would be helpful at all or not… But perhaps a sub forum that was specifically "Opt In" for those that want to hammer out political / religious stuff. I am pretty sure we all have fairly strong beliefs one way or another on those subjects, hashing them out in a woodworking forum seems to be counter productive…

As a counter point, I moderate on another woodworking forum, which has in its terms of service a prohibition against posts / topics of a political / religious nature… That is a hard thing to keep people from talking about… And people get angry at you for upholding the rules (trust me folks, you never want to be a moderator!), some drop off because they got infractions for breaking the rules. But overall, the site is a much better place for it… Feelings don't get hurt quite so easily when things don't run quite as deep as a persons beliefs both political and religious… I have never heard of a holy war over hand cut versus machine cut dovetails you know?


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## GaryC (Dec 31, 2008)

Really great piont Rich


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## SCOTSMAN (Aug 1, 2008)

Dan if you don't get my point there is no point explaining it some good people have left this site since I started.Please maybe you could explain why.Alistair


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## dakremer (Dec 8, 2009)

In my opinion nothing has changed on lumberjocks if u are looking for woodworking. If anything the woodworking has gotten way better as more people join. The only thing that has changed is the drama over if people should be allowed to post certain topics or not because other people don't like it. Which to me is absurd, and completely against any type of thing we'd want here. It's politics now…but where does it stop? Where is the line drawn? Is it ok to force people not to talk about politics bc a few people are complaining and don't like it? I don't like pen projects…can I complain and get those removed or banned from lumberjocks, or is that crossing the line? HERE is the bottom line - Martin draws the line. That's why there r rules set in place. It's none of our rights to try and demand something be taken off because a few cant look past it. No one is breaking any rules so I don't understand what the fuss is about?


> ?


?? The ONLY reason there is drama on lumberjocks now (over this politics issue) is because the complainers are complaining (again) and trying to make lumberjocks into exactly what THEY want for themselves. If you want a woodworking site that completely fills your own needs I suggest u go make a website and hang out there. Otherwise stop complaining and enjoy the woodworking like everyone else. The people who r participating in those types of threads are not bothering anyone but the people who choose to participate. It's literally that simple. This whole thing reminds me of a fight on the playground with a bunch of grade schoolers. Holy crap. GET OVER IT ALREADY


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Ok all, let me see if I have this unbelievable thread correct.

Topa is implying we have gone too far with the political posts and we should evaluate the "value" of what we post on LJ. It all sounds very honorable, his willingness to educate and be a "champion" of the down-trodden and all.

He even states :We need to return to and adhere to the standards Karson and the other early members set

Yet, if you look at his posting history, he does not follow his own advice.

The mere fact that his own signature contains the link to a political site (http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/01/26-0) that does nothing more than spew the rhetoric of his own politcal views proves Topa, you are at the absolute height of hypocricy.

You clearly say and profess one thing while all along doing something else.

The OP is laughable. Hurry Topa and change your signature before everyone else see the hypocricy.


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## peteg (Sep 2, 2010)

Toppa, "Good on ya mate" as we would say down under, & thanks Rich for the reminder, hopefully the shear weight of first class work posted on this site will bury misplaced posts.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

I am more concerned with people trying to get the non-shop topics banned as a whole. It does not really bother me if political or religious posts are banned, but I think the non-shop area has more merit than those two subjects. It is nice to hear about other people's vacations, families, member illness, births, anniversaries, humor, problems, and so many other things. It is one thing to care ONLY about woodworking, but to care about all things our members experience during their woodworking life is something really good and noble.
If you just have regard for those projects that are made by your "favorite" LJ, tool, lumber, machine etc., it would not be long before a request was made to see ONLY those chosen LJs work. In my world, I don't BLOCK anyone, everyone has their own merit and I am interested in what LJs make and ALSO them as a person, family member, shooter, fisherman etc., etc. To me it is a more well rounded experience, yes all the woodworking expertise you could ever want plus a personality that comes through and which you can connect with.
Does anyone agree with this?


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## ShaneA (Apr 15, 2011)

I agree Rex, if everyone would relax a little, it would be nice. People come, people go, use and enjoy the site in a way that makes you happy. Allow others to do the same. There is plenty of woodworking to go around.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

I agree Roger. I read many of the non-shop posts not dealing with politics or religion, unless you consider college football a religion.


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## dakremer (Dec 8, 2009)

Pretty slippery slope. Next we'll ban pens and cutting boards. Guarantee a lot of people don't like those. Yep - those r next


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

woodinheaven,
I understand what you say, and although I can't recall specifically a call for the non-shop closing, I do get the deep impression that the problems some have is that there is a non-shop area where you can posy poli-rel items. I think the most aggravated responses come from people who think it is not just Poli-Rel posts, they regard it just wanting non-shop area closed.
As I said before, if Poli-Rel is banned, then that's ok with me BUT I take exception at wanting the whole area shut down.


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## Dennisgrosen (Nov 14, 2009)

Richgreer posted this 

May I add one more point. This is not a US only site. There are many LJs from other countries and I think that is great. I don't see our friends from other countries making political statements about their country or the US. Respect for these LJs is another good reason to restrain from political talk on this site.

why don´t we  ..........maybee becourse we are too polite (no way) but more to the fact we are used to 
deal with so many different politic party´s that its already plumred worse than a sewer and except for the exstreem left or the exstreem right all can talk politic over a mug of coffee without starting a fight
we all know its only a few bucks they can change around with 99,99 % of the budget they can´t touch
anyway and for the rest they sit and try to find the buggeemand in there noses and ears to find a way
to get there own name on a silly law 
and for the religius thing lots of people believe … yes but we don´t go out a drag it down on all others 
there is a few chuches that love to walk from door to door and knock on them but most people just ignore them
after we have had our share of misk-mask in the last 3-4000 years of history here in europe 

and most of us is so damm tired of theese things 

another reason to not starts treads with political or religius isues is that we are many that don´t 
have English as our first language and therefor can´t ague very well on it and it takes alot of time 
to translate some of the things so when we are ready to answer the tread is 2 weeks older … 
and therefor don´t get into them since politic and some religius things are very local compared to
how big the earth is

you see even here I lost it … lol
so I will just say I agree with Topa lets see if people can keep those two things out of the forums

have a great safe day all of you
Dennis


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

I would like to hear more opinions from non -Americans myself.


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## sammouri (Dec 12, 2009)

Topa, you've got the big planer and used it today to straighten the out line of L J, well done.


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## fge (Sep 8, 2008)

I agree with Topa. I dont have a problem with the site management or how the site is set up, mostly because I have control of my mouse. Plus there is a very important life that I am involved with and so I dont have time or energy to be stressed out in any way from this site.

My only gripe would be that a "Im taking my ball and going home because I cannot have everything my way" forum attracts way more attention then my forum about getting my first true cabinet saw/unisaw, which recieved a few nice posts.

We just installed a stunning hickory kitchen that we built. The beauty in the kitchen is truley art! A customer I just closed a sale on, moved here from Spain recently, and viewed the hickory kitchen I speak of and they referred to our work as "ART". But posting that beautiful work cannot compete in any way with the "Im taking my ball and…" forum.

I geuss I feel my actual woodworking is not all that interesting on this site.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Thanks for all the support folks. I am not advocating banning anything including politics and religion, but a continuous banter is too much!! As Autumn said last night, 6 of 10 threads on pulse, (I never use it) on a WW site is too, too much.

*RockytopScott* No hypocrisy. I said I have seen the light ;-) I am drawn back towards the LJ I found a couple of years ago.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

What I hear from Topa, is for everyone to take the banana out of their pocket, put it on the counter, and remember to NEVER leave the banana in your pocket when entering the LJs Wood Shop.

*;-)*


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## superstretch (Jan 10, 2011)

Don't forget to take your rings off too  I don't get the whole banana thing, but I imagine that would be a mess.

In response to Jerry- I don't think off topic posts steal time and attention away from the ww-ing posts… at least in my "workflow". Keep in mind that the percentage of political/religious posts is minute compared to the constant stream of ww-ing posts. In reality, these anti-politics threads have been dominating 'pulse' lately.

In times of yore, (looks disapprovingly at Bertha…) topics would tend to spiral into "off-topic" territory anyway and dominate the pulse page. At one point, there were 3- 500+ comment posts running.

The simple fact of the matter is.. if you don't like off-topic or, more specifically, political posts, ignore them. You don't walk into a gas station looking for some M&Ms and a Dew (or beer, pay for your gas, etc), and then complain that the gas station sells newspapers. Heck.. you probably don't even complain about the tabloids. Granted, you might sneak a peak.. 

A lot of ww-ers like to talk politics. If you're not one of them, it stands to reason that you just not talk about it and go on your merry way.. no harm, no foul.


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## HawkDriver (Mar 11, 2011)

Strech, your gas station analogy got me thinking. Maybe the Non-shop talk isn't newspapers but is the adult magazines for some people. They are still sold there, but they are covered up by something so people aren't inadvertantly seeing it as they walk down the isle.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Well, let's keep bananas to a reasonable level at least ;-) Too bad the non-shop hide button wasn't available earlier for pulse. I think MsDeb said there were tech problems a week or two ago. I can't imagine RSS feed ;-(( I get too much email as it is!!


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## superstretch (Jan 10, 2011)

Patrick - I wouldn't liken it to adult magazines.. pornography is pornagraphy, which is pretty much universally declared patently offensive on forums. (also one the original reasons coffee lounge was shut down). Perhaps an even better idea would be to box the political posts up and charge 50c a day to open it up and grab a copy 










Topamax - I get about 100 posts/day from LJ in Google Reader. I tend to breeze through about 50 at a time, but its easy to get behind. However, using this method, I'm guaranteed to not miss something for which I have knowledge or interest. Pulse becomes irrelevant and therefore isn't biased towards any one area of the site. I'm also active in some Android forums and a lot of them have been implementing topic-based tags at the beginning of the title, such as "[General] What do you think of X?" or "[Support] I'm having a problem with Y, can you help?". Other tags are available like "Accessory" and "Tips". See an example here


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I tend to just pick and choose of the forums page for the last few hours or days as the case may be. You get a short introduction if teh thread is new. Love teh thumbnails on the projects page. Wish I had time to open more of them. Tonight was just a scan and the last few hours will have to wait for tomorrow nigh.


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## GMman (Apr 11, 2008)

I'm with you 100% Bob


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## SCOTSMAN (Aug 1, 2008)

Let's just all be friends LOL I love you allsorry that's how I feel this is still a great site and I for one intend to stay.Alistair


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## spunwood (Aug 20, 2010)

hear hear! to this thread


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## S4S (Jan 22, 2011)

You can not hide behind the light ,









return to the Dark Side !

For a limited time take advantage of Dark Side special rates !


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## lanwater (May 14, 2010)

although I am a proponent of free speech, I am with you Bob.


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## mtenterprises (Jan 10, 2011)

You know when I first started here I posted a picture of my double table saw that I had built up. A day later it was removed. Why aren't these Political Religious posts removed the same way since they cause this trouble. There was nothing wrong with my table saw project but it was culled. 
And another thing about those that say "I'm taking my ball and going home because I cannot have everything my way" if they weren't concerned about this site they wouldn't have this show of sensationalism they would just fade away quietly like I almost did because of my missing post. Yes I too have been caught up in some of this stuff but am trying to be more positive about what happens here. As someone mentioned monitoring seems the proper way to go and of course the proper use of your own discretion.

The views and comments expressed here may not necessarily be the personal views of all persons but are solely the personal views of the writer and not that of all LumberJocks or the LumberJocks internet site or it's owners.
And now back to our sponsor LumberJocks and Woodworking.

MIKE


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## Porchfish (Jun 20, 2011)

From one of your newer "old" members !...................................................................................................
Bring it all ! It is life ! If you don't want to read "off topic", don't read it. If someone else wants to post something meaningful to themselves, let them share ! I have never complained about, or found offense with anything posted here. We are many faceted human beings …let it shine , let it shine, let it shine !
I don't read every post on antique tools or ancient (albeit interesting) techniques ! I just move on. Censorship or monitoring isn't necessary here yet and seldom is it , among adults ! Listen to Alister, the Scotsman and Rex !
I appreciate everything my fellow craftsmen want to share because they are willing to share ! Not because they are all sages and great masters, but because they are hopefully as multifaceted as I wish to be ! You are never too old or too wise to learn something new, wether from our crafts or our lives. Let's not stifle what we may not understand, or appreciate at the moment, for they come and go too quickly ! So bring it all , please !


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I am in favor of free speech, ect. the point I am making is saying the same thing in numerous off topic threads week after week is totally unnecessary. We all know where everybody else stands and nobody is going to change their minds. At some point it just becomes clutter. I finally reached my clutter point ;-))


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

You could say; TOPA has MAXed out.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I don't know that I'm maxed out. I could go on, but I won't due to respect for the site and Martin. Why make his job any worse than it already is by adding in refereeing?


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Topa: Refereeing? Man it's you're call.  gotcha again lol


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## Dennisgrosen (Nov 14, 2009)

tooo cluttered …no problem ….. a bigger vacuum cleaner is neeeded in your shop Topa …..


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

What Roger,... *TopaMaxxed?*

*;-)*


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Week after week like your signature Topa?......always pointing to a political viewpoint.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Topa in refernce to your Thom Hartmann tagline describing the Two Santa Claus' theory with Wanninski…

Yes the repubs promising tax cuts for supply side economics has had some downside, most notably offshoring - Favored Nation status, CAFTA and NAFTA - - so not only repubs.

Question is …. was the first santa claus of the new deal good for the country? Or are they both a problem?

I would argue that the entitlement society has done at least as much damage to our national fabric and work ethic as the rich keeping a higher percentage of their take home pay and blowing it on hookers and yachts.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

That is an educational link for the low information voter and the uninformed. I always wondered what the hell they were doing running up the debt so bad. That explains a lot. It finally all came together and made sense. BTW, I have had thank yous for having it there.

The insurance programs of GI Bill, SS, Medicare and FHA in their original forms were certainly positive influcences. The Great Society destroyed a lot of poor people's initiative.

There is plenty of blame to go for both the Rs and DS. It is not either or. You have to realize they are all stabbing you in the back.

Here is where no gov't regulation will take you, just one example. From Stansberry:

"Former Goldman Sachs CEO Jon Corzine took the reins of the historic brokerage house MF Global in March 2010. Traditionally, MF Global generated commissions trading for clients - a low-risk (and often low-reward) business model. As evidenced by the quote above, given last year to the Wall Street Journal, Corzine wanted to "Goldmanize" his new firm. He envisioned a full-fledged investment bank that would take risks with its own capital.

Unfortunately for Corzine, he decided to focus that risk on European sovereign debt. The firm bought $6.3 billion of debt from countries including Italy, Spain, Portugal, Belgium, and Ireland… It avoided Greece. The firm only had $1.23 billion of equity as of the end of September. Total assets equaled more than $41 billion, meaning MF Global was leveraged almost 40 to 1 - a similar level to Lehman Brothers. A 3% fall in the company's portfolio would wipe out equity…

Thanks to this excessive leverage, we have our first U.S. victim of the European debt crisis. After its shares fell 67% last week and the company failed to find a buyer, MF Global filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy this morning…

For his stellar performance at MF Global, Corzine will receive around $12.1 million in severance, according to the New York Times' business blog, Dealbook."


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Why would I leave that decision to you? Do you think I am stupid?


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## seabiscuit (Oct 6, 2011)

Wow…how hard is it to not click on a topic that you aren't interested in. It's not like titles like "Should we remove this president" or "Occupy Wall Street" or "1% vs. 99% bogus" are too subtle to realize they are political.

In other words, if you don't want to read it, don't.

It's bloody off topic for eff's sake


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