# Chinese firewood...I mean plywood!



## dalec (Oct 3, 2007)

It is unfortunate that substandard products find their way to market. From a woodworker's perspective, it is a shame that we end up with sheet goods that do not meet expected standards. I would think aside from making a profit, that these economies would want to establish a reputation for quality. Having a poor reputation is worse than not having one at all.

Anyway, I am glad you were able to recover your investment, but you still lost time and effort in this transaction. I guess paying $70 a sheet for good sheet goods looks pretty good given the options.

Dalec


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## grovemadman (Jan 28, 2008)

Don't burn it! It might contain lead….


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## sbryan55 (Dec 8, 2007)

Hi Dadoo,

Thanks for the post. I just bought some maple plywood at Home Depot for 46.88 a sheet. I looked at it but couldn't seen any tag on it. I suspect that it is the same thing that you bought at Lowe's. I will watch it and see if it develops the problems that you had.

But at least you got good service at Lowe's. A lot of stores would not have credited you with the cut sheet.


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## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

Don't feed it to your dog! It might contain melamine…


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## Praki (Jun 17, 2007)

I have a similar story of "Birch Plywood" that I bought from my local orange box. A 2'x4' sheet cost me $15 and some change. After I cut it to the dimensions I wanted, it just curled up like a potato chip! I have jut about resigned myself to using heavy carcinogenic MDF 

Incidentally, I bought the more expensive birch plywood from one of the wood working supplies chain. The 20"x30" sheet I bought looked worse than the other and the cuts were badly chipped. Luckily, they have remained usable.

I have to say, quality plywood is pretty much unavailable or extremely expensive. I just hope that the smega stores get the message and stop carrying junk.


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## Blake (Oct 17, 2007)

Wow Dadoo, that sucks more than a dust collector. A huge thanks for letting us know. Use it to make a satellite dish… no shaping involved. Or maybe one of those modern one-piece chairs? Or maybe an outfeed table for my tortoise shell table saw?


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## GaryK (Jun 25, 2007)

Thanks for the warning!


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## jcees (Dec 31, 2007)

First, shame on me, I knew better after reading horror stories about this stuff. Now I've used exactly one sheet of this crap and I will do without before using it ever again. Trouble is, I bought it from my "real" cabinet supply company. Sheesh! Apparently shame is in shorter supply than crappy plywood.

always,
J.C.


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## motthunter (Dec 31, 2007)

once again. proof that really cheap is usually expensive.


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## brianm (Feb 16, 2008)

Motthunter is correct.

If you want nice fresh oats you have to pay the price. If you wants oats that have already been through the horse they are much cheaper.


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## AdMarkGuy (Jan 1, 2008)

GOOD Posting it is definitely worthwhile knowledge to share with all 
- Thanks


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## DaveHerron (Jan 21, 2008)

I'm pretty sure that Lowes and Home Depot only carry China plywood now. I only use the stuff for shop projects now. I buy the $100+ plywood for other projects at my local hardwood supply house. Maybe we should start a write in campaign to see if we can get HD or Lowes to bring in some quality lumber?


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## SplinterDave (Apr 16, 2008)

I like what Mr. Herron said about getting our local discount hardware stores to stock some better quality, cabinet grade ply. Unfortunately if they switch over the better quality stuff they no longer are a discount hardware and Wally World will edge them out as they have all the other small speciality sotres. Personally I can't afford expensive stuff. I guess this ply may be OK for small projects that do not have long sheets that can twist or curl. I also noticed that the finished layer is very thin. "Do Not" sand should be stamped on it. Any sanding of this ply will burn right through the outer layer and leave a fatal blemish only suitable for painting.


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## OttawaP (Mar 13, 2008)

Chinese plywood is also sneeking into sheathing grade plywood for floors, construction etc. It's also complete garbage.+


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## teenagewoodworker (Jan 31, 2008)

I can't believe the things they market as "select, cabinet grade, and A/C" at those big box scores. I go there and their select plywood had at least 5 places where they cutout the veneer and replaced it. They didn't even try to match the veneer either. on half of them the repairs grain was running in the opposite direction. It's a shame.


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## grovemadman (Jan 28, 2008)

We have a place here in my town called Sommerville plywood, when I need a good piece of plywood this is where I go. I haven't had any problems with them yet…


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## teenagewoodworker (Jan 31, 2008)

living in the city stinks because i have to get that big store plywood. also when i want any hardwoods other than the average Mahog, Cherry, Maple, Poplar, and Oak I have to special order it from a lumberyard in NH. I haven't tried their plywood yet but i hope to someday. I'm sick of what these big box stores sell as select for anything wood related. It's a disgrace.


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## affyx (Jan 1, 2008)

"Made in China" plywood has me really perplexed - it's an extremely heavy product - how could it possibly be economical to ship wood across the Pacific and truck it all over North America? The only thing I can think of is that there must be a lot of pollution in the cheap production of plywood and the regulations in the USA and Canada must be prohibitive.


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## DaveHerron (Jan 21, 2008)

I sent a complaint to HD about the plywood and they are sending me a $20 gift certificate. Maybe if all 6,000 lumberjocks sent in a complaint every few weeks HD would get tired of handing out $120,000 in gift certificates and bring in some decent plywood.


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## LeeJ (Jul 4, 2007)

Hi Dadoo;

Kind of intentionally misleading how they have Samling USA, LLC.

This is just the name of the Limited Liability Corporation.

Sorry to hear about your wasted time, and cabinets that warped on you.

Lee


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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

I keep pleading with everybody to vote with your wallets. 
You cant convince the "big guns" that they are hurting you unless you hurt them. That's why they call them the Borg.
When the sales drop off you will get their attention- not until.

Bob


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## teenagewoodworker (Jan 31, 2008)

I agree with Dave Herron. I had a bad experience at Lowes (and i mean really bad) and they sent me a 50$ gift card. Thats how i got my brad nailer.


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## mrtrim (Oct 11, 2007)

i agree with bob #2 , they only speak one language . numbers


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## odie (Nov 20, 2007)

I've been spoiled having a great hardwood/plywood place close in Reno. I have heard the main problem with the Chinese plywood is moisture content. They are in such a hurry to make a shipment they don't dry out the layers uniformly. They also use inferior glues. *Wallets say it in volumns.*


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## bbrooks (Jan 3, 2007)

I agree with Bob#2, that the money talks. Problem is in a lot of areas you may not have other alternatives. Then what do you do?

Luckily here we have a hardwood company that carries plywood as well. Their stuff is good, and what I usually buy. And, of all things, their shop grade Oak plywood is actually cheaper than HD or Lowe's.


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## Dadoo (Jun 23, 2007)

My local yard has surprised me recently with high grade 2×4's from Germany and 1x pine from Sweden! It's truely quality stuff but I know we have at least three local mills that are producing the same thing everyday. The plywood I purchased recently from them was Birch faced, (I gave up looking for maple faced ply) but it cut and glued and remains square at this time.

Another thing that bothered me about this Chinese firewood is that the outside veneer is very thin. I'm talking maybe less than 1/32" thick! So one of the first things I thought of was how to build and limit sanding. All in all though…*it's just not worth the hassle!*


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## teenagewoodworker (Jan 31, 2008)

I agree with Dadoo. With such a thin veneer there is no way that you can give that plywood a good sanding through the grits. some of the ply that i get though says its sanded but its so rough that they must have only sanded it to 80 grit. and the veneer's so thin that if i try to sand the 120 and 180 I'll probably go right through the veneer.


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## Greg3G (Mar 20, 2007)

Dadoo, Don't feel too bad. I have been very busy with my "day job" and forgot to run to my Hardwood supplier last week. I am trying really hard to get the shop in order and need to build some wall cabinets. So I ran to the local "orange" big box and picked up two sheets of the top of the line oak ply. I only took two because that's all thet they had that weren't already bowed. My though at the time was the cabinets weren't going to be that big and any bow should be minimal…boy was I wrong. When I got them cut down to size, 12×32…they bowed up at least 3/4 of an inch So I thought that I would dado the back and see if I could hold them in place with the back panel…nope, just pulled it out of square over night. I wasn't going to do a face frame but now I will, just to hide the crapy plywood. I've learned my lesson…I will never, ever by ply from "Orange" again. I'm so embarrased I won't even take pictures of the mess. I knew better in the first place.


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## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

we also have to remember that it is often our North American companies who are getting their products built elsewhere and the companies are responsible for the quality and the materials… some still want a good reputation and others just want the bucks.


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## mrtrim (Oct 11, 2007)

ms. deb , you wouldnt happen to have a phone # for ones / one that wants a good rep. ? i need some plywood ! lol


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

I have a cold room in the basement and decided to turn the 10' x 10' room into a wine cellar, with shelving for preserves, cheese etc. I used chinese plywood to make my wine racks (the kind that resembles baltic birch) and gave it all a few coats of lacquer.

That was three years ago and it looks the same today as it did from the start. No failure of joints, no delamination and very little twisting and bowing. Perfect for its purpose.

At the same time I used the scraps to make bluebird houses. Every one of them have fallen apart and delaminated despite paint and tin roofs.

I am not a fan of china nor do I dispise it but the day is coming when just about anything and everything is made "off shore". The fact of the matter is, we fill the parking lots of big box stores with our SUVs to buy that which they sell and over 90% of it is made in China. We tax our industries to death, we want paved roads, garbage collection and health services, universities, and the list goes on. we live a lifestlye that the world cannot afford, where 50% of everything we buy whinds up in a landfill site yet we complain of the price of gas and want the "$$$DEAL$$$"...........simply, there is no such thing as a deal, or free. somebody, somewhere lost where we won.

I bought a Dodge truck and a GM van made in the USA and Canada. My Tablesaw was made in Germany and my shaper made in Italy but the rest of my toys were all made here in North America and for the most part, all the wood products I buy are mfg right here and certainly grown here.

The day will come when plywood made over there, will be as good as ours, maybe even better and the price will, in all likelyhood, cause the closing of many wood mills, not any different then the tire companies, the automotive parts companies etc.,

yet we fill the parking lots of the big box stores looking for the "deal". Sadly, I have been guilty of this too.


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

I have never bought plywood from any of the big box stores. I have never seen any that looks like material I would want to use in a project. I have a hardwood supplier right around the corner from me that stocks the usual ply suspects ( oak, maple, birch, Baltic birch) and will order anything I want. Sure, it's more expensive than the ply from the big box, but it's quality material and whenever I had him custom order me something he makes sure its really nice stuff.


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## Dadoo (Jun 23, 2007)

*DEB:* You're right (again) about it being the company (like Craftsman) who allows cheap supplies to wear their name and it is us that buy these items which keeps them in business. I remember when "Made in Japan" was a bad thing. Some of the best stuff around comes from Japan today! And remember when "Made in Taiwan" made you shudder? I just bought a Jet Air Filtration system. It's a great unit and shows of quality construction. Guess where Jet's from? Taiwan! So some day the Chinese will catch up…but then what? Will we find our cheap sockets coming from Afganistan? Somalia?

*Roman:* Wine and cheese cellar huh? I'm getting jealous! But listen here bro, "You said it!" We are all guilty of buying the cheap stuff…anything to save a buck. And soon we find ourselves buying that stuff again, to replace the previous stuff that is now worn or broken. But fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me! Next time I'm buying plywood, I'll be more careful…I'll know you will too.


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## naperville (Jan 28, 2008)

Hey guys…

Not only does it warp and twist, it could be potentialy dangerous. Check out my previous post on Chinese plywood. Danger! Chinese Plywood.

Tom


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## teenagewoodworker (Jan 31, 2008)

i think its a hit or miss sort of thing. its like those bargain stores and tv adds. you could have a good person trying to sell you a decent product from a manufacturer who cares about what they are doing. or you could have some products that are just horrible. harbor freight is an example of that. i know people who have bought tools from there and had no problems for years and other who turned it on the first time and it died. its just sort of a hit or miss kind of operation.


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## GMoney (Dec 27, 2007)

If anyone truely wants good quality plywood….Baltic Birch is really the way to go. It's cabinet grade, has no voids on the interior, works well and looks good too. It comes in many thicknesses from 1/16 to 3/4. Almost any decent hardwood dealer will have it and it comes in 5X5 sheets. Yes, that is correct 5 ft by 5ft sheets. So, if anyone really wants quality and doesn't want to hope for the best while really wanting to part with as little money as possible, then baltic birch is for you.


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## anotherbrick (May 22, 2008)

i'm chinese, from chinese plywood industry. there are many cabinet grade plywood exported to USA market,but i think you cann't buy it from market,because most of them are directly sent to furniture factories. most plywood sell on market is not cabinet grade, we called it "industry grade or commercial grade".normally we chinese don't use this grade in furniture,because the quality of this grade is not very good. 
i think maybe you had bought a industry garde plywood.

to distinguish if a chinese plywood is cabinet grade is not difficult.

1,moisture content: the mc of cabinet grade plywood is not more than 14%,most of them not more than 12%
2,voids: cabinet grade have less voids
3,smell it: you can't smell formaldehyde from a cabinet grade plywood
4,face/back: most of okoume/maranti face/back plywoods is industry grade. if a chinese plywood have a B or C grade birch or poplar face or oak face,maybe it's cabinet grade plywood


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## Dadoo (Jun 23, 2007)

I'd like to invite you to take a close look at the first picture above again. This is "cabinet grade" plywood.


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## anotherbrick (May 22, 2008)

dadoo, the factory must not dry core veneers before glue and hot press these maple plywood. though they name these plywood as "cabinet grade", i also think these maple plywood are garbage.
6 years ago, a client of USA had complained about the twisting problem to us and then we'd tried many method to solve this problem and then this problem was solved. nowadays,too many mills who don't have enough experience and technique to produce "cabinet grade" plywood are selected to manufacture "cabinet grade" plywood to export to USA and other country, just because their price is cheap. they abandon some working procedures to reduce the cost. it's our sorriness


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## Harold (Nov 13, 2007)

anotherbrick…first I would like to thank you for participating in this forum. It is a bold move on your part, many here in America including myself are frustrated with the current sitiuation and right or wrong you will be seen as the cause. Just out of curiosity, what is the wholesale cost of a sheet cabinet grade plywood delivered to the US.


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## irishhandyman (May 2, 2008)

Ok I been reading these posts and I agree that we need to speak with our money. The thing of it is we can blame China all we want for making a dud product. I think we need to take a closer look at reason its even allowed to come to our shores to begin with. No more ply that buy in a year would make a difference. I agree you get what you pay for. Its been that way for years. The American companies have made a good product for years, and I try to buy American when possible. That isnt meant to be anti anything, but I do believe in being PRO American. I hate to say it folks, but we have allowed this to happen. If I made a widget and it was crap and you bought it, who is the sucker here? This plywood situation is the same thing. Now lets look deeper, OUR government has allowed and in some instances ENCOURAGED this to happen. Not only do we need to stop buying the junk product, we need to look at some of the voting records of our elected officials to see where they really stand on the issue of allowing the U.S. to even let this stuff on our shores. Lets look at some of the lumber mills that are sending U.S. wood overseas to be mangled and shipped back to us. The borg stores can send all the $25-$50 cards they want. They can do that for a long time, what they cant afford is not to sell anything. Their profit margin is so high they dont care. The cost of making a crappy piece of ply is so low I bet your jaw would drop like an anvil. There are no wage laws, overseas. I guess in short, its all our faults for allowing this to happen.


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## irishhandyman (May 2, 2008)

Anotherbrick I will have to give you credit, you are walking head long into a storm here. I hope anything I have said has not offend you, that is not my intent. I dont blame you personaly, nor you country. I hope you can shed some light on the problem we are having on this side of the pond. If nothing else give us some company names from your country that are making product that is worth the money. All in all it wont make a difference to me, but there are people in this site that make their living working with wood. They deserve to know.


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## Loogie (Jan 19, 2008)

This past weekend (Fathers Day) I went to my favorite Home Depot to pick up 6 sheets of Birch plywood for some shop cabinets. The only thing I could find there was Samling USA plywood @ $44.86/sheet. It was complete crap. It had closed knots all over it and the back side had huge patches of filler. I left empty handed and drove 30 miles to another town where there is a Lowes and HD very close to each other. I went to Lowes first and found really nice plywood that was Birch on one side and Maple on the other. Very nice stuff. It has a sticker on the corner that said "Made in the USA". It was $48.34/sheet. I bought 8 sheets just to be safe. It milled fine and has very few voids at all. I was quite happy to pay and extra $4/sheet for a much better quality product that was also Made in the USA.


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## GaryCN (Aug 18, 2007)

And were talking about something easy to make - plywood,
this is why I will only drive a vehicle engineered and produced in the US or Canada.
That is hard to do today, I don't want to find out the hard way that an air bag failed to deploy
because of sub standard components or possibly that a very low paid worker on a 16 hour shift
failed to connect a wiring harness properly. My 1994 F150 with over 200k is still serving me well.
Were sending all our money offshore then wonder why housing prices are dropping by the
thousands. There should be a made in label on all goods, most of the stuff from China should
be in a landfill not on store shelves. Just visit your local dollar store. It will end up there after
Wall Mart cant sell it. 
(end of rant)


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## jerryz (Jun 4, 2009)

Well, I am happy to report that my local HD is now carrying plywood from Columbia Forest Products, I bought a couple of Oak 4×8 sheets for a couple of projects I'm working on. I already pre-cut the sheets and so far they have not twisted or delaminated after hearing all the bruhaha that's going on with the plywood I wanted to wait before further cutting/assemblind to then find out the panels were no good.
Any way as I was inspecting them to check for warpage or other issues I came across the sticker from Columbia Forest products.
The label says:

PUREBOND PANEL: 3/4", 4' X 8', VCL, C, 3, R/C Whole Piece, Red Oak, HD, R/C, Red Oak, PureBond FF

Maybe somebody with more experience here can tell weather this is good material, by the way I paid 49.99 for each sheet.
And they cut it up for me for free, hehe I have some clout at my local store, the missy works there.


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## jerryz (Jun 4, 2009)

Checking the Columbia Forest Products web page I found that the Purebond sheets are Formaldehyde free materials which is nice to know.


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