# Where do you start building a set of stairs?



## dryhter (Jul 14, 2008)

If you need to punish yourself, just want to watch a brain numbing video or need to learn how to build a set of stairs then watch this video.

http://blip.tv/play/AYHxt18A

When you need to build a set of stairs, where do you start?
Well, the simple answer is the height or rise of the stairs. That is the one fixed dimension amongst many variables. And get out your calculator because you are going to need it The first part of the video deals with the math in figuring out your stairway.

And for you experienced stair builders fast forward through all the boring math stuff and get to the part about how I use a pair of dividers to layout my stringers, a very accurate and precise method that negates compounded error. Let me know of your thoughts regarding this method.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Sorry i don't have time to watch the video right now, but why not just grab the framing square? )


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## dryhter (Jul 14, 2008)

Topamax, 
That is a fair question and one that I thought about while making the video. I still use a framing square and those little brass buttons and I have added a chalk box and dividers to my stair building tool box.

Exterior stairs or utility stairs usually don't have the same degree of accuracy that is needed for interior stairs and that is what I learned how to build first

By using the chalk box to snap a line on your stringer you negate any effects a crowned stringer may have on your accuracy and gives a defined line to walk your dividers down. Less guess work saves time.

By using the dividers to step off the point that the riser intersects the tread is more accurate than just relying on your judgement when using a framing square and quicker in the long run because you are no longer nudging over your square to line up or making allowances for pencil lines.

The bottom line is that it is quicker because you are working with defined points not guessing on lining up your square with your previous pencil mark and more accurate because you are not compounding the mistakes in judgement that are inevitable.

I start talking about layout at about the 36 min. mark of the video.


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## CaptainSkully (Aug 28, 2008)

Using the framing square and the knobs, I've always tried to hit 7" H x 11"D rise/run, and they've always worked out for me. I've probably built over 20 sets of stairs.


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## oldworld124 (Mar 2, 2008)

There is an old formula to figure out the best tread to riser rate. It is 2 risers + 1 tread equals 25". Here is a link that explains it well:

http://www.archturnings.com/Finding-the-Staircase-Footprint-nid-10.html

I sometimes go up to 26" But normally keep in the 25" range.


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## dryhter (Jul 14, 2008)

John
That was an interesting website, he does nice work. When building deck, utility or stairs of short run I usually just go with what I got to work with,but when building main stairs or any stairway over 5-6 rise I use three riser-tread ratios :


 rise X tread width =72-76 ins.


 rise+tread width=17-18 ins.


 2 riser + tread width=24-25 ins.

Tread width is the run unit not a tread width, like you would buy at the store. In other words it does not include the nosing or overhang past the riser, this gets kind of confusing sometimes.

The two common size treads you can usually find to buy are 10 1/2 and 11 1/2 in. treads. I like to keep the overhang or nosing at about 1 1/4 in. This lets me put a 3/4 cove mold under the tread like you might find in older traditional open stringer stairs if need be.


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## oldworld124 (Mar 2, 2008)

The tread riser ratio set at 25" is referenced from the nose to nose no matter what the overhang. THe riser is self explanatory. I always lay out a set of stairs with a story pole and a full size layout for at least 2 tread/risers so as not to make an error on final layout. BTW, I made a similar set of stairs in your photo over twenty years ago. It was in oak.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

dryhter, I can see where calipers along the work line would be more accurate than flopping a square around ;-))

I was wondering why you don't just divide by the probable number of risers instead of starting by dividing the total by 7.5? You know 14 or 15 will be the result in a standard house.

During the installation of risers and treads, it looked like you had to be putting them in from underneath. Why don't you work with the stringers the other way with the installation surface of the blocks up?


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## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

Some good basic information here, and I agree with the use of the calipers. Particularly for a rookie not used to laying out stringers. Accurate stringer layout is critical in the simplest stairs….more complicated stair design's require 'ultra' accuracy. Calipers are a good way to achieve that in stairs with consistent runs.
I can't say I'm really crazy about the actual construction used….but again, good for the first timer.


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## dryhter (Jul 14, 2008)

John
That is what I meant about tread width being confusing, irregardless of how it is measured, it ( tread width ) is the unit of measurement used for figuring the horizontal dimension. The only time I use a story poll is when building curved stairs, the stringers are on the form. How do you use the story poll for straight stairs? Judging by your work I am sure they were beautiful. The kitchen is truly a work of art and your workbench,WOW.


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## dryhter (Jul 14, 2008)

Topamax,

I guess because that is the way I was taught and am comfortable with it, it has never failed me. Each person should probably develop their own procedure depending how their head works I assemble upside down because it is easier ( for me ) to get to the fasteners and you want to make sure that your components are seated properly.


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## dryhter (Jul 14, 2008)

Tony

I read your post just before leaving for work this morning, and after thinking about it today I think you took a shot a me. I enjoy a good discussion and an exchange of ideas so tell me What was wrong with the "actual construction used…."? Here in northeast Ohio this type of construction is usual, customary and reasonable in what you would expect to find in a custom built Home. Lesser Quality homes have stairways built with a nail gun and no adhesive. So, I ask What is your type of construction used?


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## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

dryhter

My apologies to you if you felt I was taking a shot at you, I wasn't. Maybe I was a little too blunt with my opinion however. Ive been accused of that before when It comes to stair design and construction.
In my opinion….treads and risers should always be routed into closed stringers, and should be assembled with glue, screws and hardwood wedges….bare minimum. 
Ive replaced a lot of older stairs over the years, that had 'clicks'...'ticks'...and 'squeaks' that had treads and risers attached to stringers in the manner you've shown.
So…like I said…I'm not really crazy about the actual construction used.The "Usual, customary and reasonable" way doesn't always mean the BEST way.

Just my 2 cents…take it for what it's worth.


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## oldworld124 (Mar 2, 2008)

Using a story pole for straight stairs is very elementary. You have the riser height and tread width a given once they are determined.That gives 2 sides of a triangle. I just mark the points between riser to riser to close the triangle. This makes sure the square is marking accurately and on point. Make sure you subtract the bottom of the stringer to account for the finished tread thickness.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Thanks, haviing never assembled a set of stairs like that, I guess I have no idea how I would do it???? I guess I expected a good technical reason I didn't kow about ) The only stairs I ever built were outdoor stairs.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

notottoma, then start at the bottom and go up. If you start and the top and work down, you might fall and land on your noggin)


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## dryhter (Jul 14, 2008)

Hey Tony

No apologizes needed, I was just feeling a little cantankerous at the end of the day. And all I can say is that I agree with you 100%.

That is probably the best way to assemble closed stringers and I saw somewhere, I think in an edition of an old stair building book to use dovetails to attach the stringer to the tread and dovetail the balusters to the tread on open stringer stairs.

The next connection is the riser/tread connection. The at top connection I have switched from nails/glue blocks to pocket hole screws/glue blocks. At the bottom I still use just glue and screws, but have been tempted to try and beef up this joint somehow,... .. .. dowels, biscuits, rabbet, rabbeted tenon, something. This joint seems to be the weak point in the design and treads keep getting thinner and thinner causing more flexing and stress.

And that brings up a question, and may not be the best place to pose it but, I will. I have my stair building pricing down to a pretty slim margin, material selection,and whether the stringer and risers are stained or painted are the variables mostly. I have never been able to crack that better quality nut of charging more for rabbeted and wedged assembly. I don't even try anymore. It would go something like this:

THEM: So how much for the stairway?
ME: $1000.00
THEM: How long will they last?
ME: a long time, I know they will last at least thirty years ( I have been back into houses that I did twenty-five years ago and the stairs are in solid shape ), probably longer.
THEM: How much for the other way?
ME: $1400.00
THEM: How much longer will they last?
ME: I … errrrr, ummm, and this is where I stumble, I don't know how much longer they will last and I have never been much good at selling the sizzle instead of the steak, so
ME:a lot longer, forty -fifty years
THEM: No, thirty years is good.

So the question is how do you get more bucks for doing more work, to do a better job?

Anyways,


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