# Advice? Building/joining faceframe using old, EXTREMELY hard white oak



## philjhan (Aug 26, 2021)

Recovered some 4/4 white oak from Great Grandfather's shed. I don't have much of it to work with, so can't afford to scrap a lot of it as I make some kitchen cabinets. From some test planing, it looks like I may end up with face stock a freckle shy of 3/4". This stuff is hard as a rock, and I'm not sure the most reliable way to join the rails and stiles. I had thought of pocket screws, but I'm not sure how well they will work in the thinner stock, and if they may tend to split the hard material when I pull it to full torque. Any ideas? Thanks


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## therealSteveN (Oct 29, 2016)

Using a router table to do proper rails and stiles on Oak is fairly easy work. Plus it makes for a good looking, and very sound joinery method.


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

I was gifted some white oak from Oregon it was incredibly hard tough wood. 
My first choice would be Festool dominos. 
Have you tested a pocket hole screw? they are pretty good for the small budget woodworker. Get the right screw length and drill the hole depth properly before you throw in the towel.
Good Luck


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## LesB (Dec 21, 2008)

TherealSteveN has the classical way to do this and +1 on Aj's comments. 
I thing the pocket screws will work fine if you pre-drill the holes and also It will help to coat the screws with paraffin or bees wax.

There are other ways so it depends on what tools you have or are willing to acquire. 
You could also mortise and tenon the joints….lots of ways to make those.

I would use my Panto Router for this but that is an expensive tool but very versatile for a of of other projects.


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## bondogaposis (Dec 18, 2011)

If you use pocket screws make sure you get the ones designed for hardwoods and adjust your set up for thickness of wood you have. Don't be afraid to adjust the clutch on your drill driver either.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

Half laps aren't exactly rocket science and look great from the front. From the back side, the rails and stiles will be wrong, with the rails going full width. The solution for that is a bridle joint. Slightly more challenging, but still doable. Its advantage is that the frame looks right front and back.

Besides the M & T mentioned above, take a look at doing loose tenon joints. With a router and a 1/4" bit you can set up a jig to do the mortises pretty easily, and it's also easy to mill the tenons.

I think pocket screws look horrible on cabinet doors.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Then…there is the Mitered Half Lap joint…..looks like a miter joint from the outside…inside it looks like a butt joint









Corner looks like a Miter joint (in Ash, BTW)









2 Door frames ready to glue up…with a raised panel….









Test fit…









Sanded, waiting on a finish..









Inside of the door….









Yep, I said 2 doors….









Installed in the bathroom, above the Throne.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

I'm confused as usual. The OP says, " I'm not sure the most reliable way to join the rails and stiles". I see no indication from the OP if he means Face frames for the cabinet boxes or for making doors.


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

> I m confused as usual. The OP says, " I'm not sure the most reliable way to join the rails and stiles". I see no indication from the OP if he means Face frames for the cabinet boxes or for making doors.
> 
> - AlaskaGuy


Your right In his post there's no mention of face frames. So I did some investigating and found the words faceframes in his title.
What is throwing me off is . "The most reliable way". Not sure what that means


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## LeeRoyMan (Feb 23, 2019)

Ye old tried and true…..


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## WoodenDreams (Aug 23, 2018)

The title says Building/joining faceframe using old,

I would have used the router table with matched stile & rail bits. since it's being attached to the carcuss, and not doors. The two half lap joints above looks to be very good options also.


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## WoodenDreams (Aug 23, 2018)

I have two of the Generals. Same as LeeRoyMan picture. That jig has been reliable for me on different projects. Dowels would work too, since it's a faceframe attaching to a carcuss.


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## gerrym526 (Dec 22, 2007)

Why not consider mortise and stub tenon joinery, and glue the joints? You can cut the joinery on a table saw (search for some youtube videos on the technique), and simply glue and clamp the joints. Norm Abrams made cabinet doors like this in his videos and talked about how easy it was to join the rails and stiles.

Will provide a strong, reliable joint, and has been used in cabinetry for decades.

And, your nice cabinets won't end up with lots of pocket holes that are visible every time you open the doors.

I've got no bias against pocket hole joinery, and use it frequently when building cabinets for the shop. But kitchen cabinet or fine furniture doors look much nicer with traditional joinery and glue joints.

Just my opinion.
Hope this helps.
Gerry


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> I m confused as usual. The OP says, " I'm not sure the most reliable way to join the rails and stiles". I see no indication from the OP if he means Face frames for the cabinet boxes or for making doors.
> 
> - AlaskaGuy
> 
> ...


Well, I will say that using a coping sled on a router table is more reliable than freehanding when using a cabinet door set of router bits. Don't ask me how I know


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## Moai (Feb 9, 2009)

pockets screws won't split the wood because they go trough the fibers diagonally. All kitchens I install all the time are made with rock maple. What makes my life much easier when building frames, is to glue hem up first with the high strength 3M tape (PIC) with all the pockets drilled beforehand…once the frame has dried up, clamps are not even needed to drive all screws in the holes.


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## jkm312 (Jan 13, 2020)

I would dowel the stiles and rails together for the front frames. Then use tongue and groove joinery to put the front frames on the cabinet boxes. Let them stick past the cabinet side 1/4 inch to allow installation side by side. It allows 1/4 inch plywood for scribing plywood to the wall on exposed ends. Use half lap top frames in the tops of the base cabinets. Just glue and nail them in place. Cut out the toe kicks in the cabinet base sides, cut a dado in the base sides to hold the bottom shelf and tongue and groove that into the face frame. About and 1 1/4 inch back from the front edge of the cabinet side cut a shallow saw kerf to hold one side of some spring clamps to hold the face frames on. Cut the tongue and grooves a little "sloppy" to allow for easier assembly and for some swelling from the glue. Rabbit the cabinet backs into the sides. I always add mounting strips nailed from the sides in the top and bottom of the wall cabinets. Some people trust the cabinet backs and glue, I never do.

An old school "grouchy" cabinet maker taught me how. Unfortunately he is long gone passed on, but I'm still scared to death to this day to deviate from what he taught me. Because it works and is time tested.


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## philjhan (Aug 26, 2021)

Thanks, guys for all of the good advice. I think I'll experiment with several of these suggestions. Lots of experience is being shared, I can tell, and it's always the best teacher, right?


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

Jkm312, thank you for posting. Love that info!


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