# Walkthrough with electrician tomorrow. Thoughts on wiring plan?



## bobspryn (Dec 5, 2017)

Here is my initial take on wiring for my new shop space. Would welcome any thoughts. I think I have lighting figured out, so this is mainly about wiring.

Are floor outlets definitely a good way to go in cement in a garage? It's not a huge space, but I worry a tiny bit about reconfiguration putting outlets right in a walking path.

20A circuits to a new subpanel. Do I need to specify wiring gauge? 12 gauge good? Do I need 10 for 220V? Also thinking of having them run dual circuits to each 110V so I can run two heavy things right next to each other. (Shop vac being the main one I would imagine.)

My initial idea of a possible layout below as well.


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## bobspryn (Dec 5, 2017)

I suppose flooring is something to consider with any outlets added in the floor. I was thinking of doing an epoxy floor at some point. I imagine that would probably be ok, but anything that raises the floor up a bit would potentially cause an issue with ground outlets.


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## johnstoneb (Jun 14, 2012)

No on the floor outlets. Put in some ceiling outlets. 10 is about right on 240 or more. I put in 3 and right now if I had four I would use it.


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## Knockonit (Nov 5, 2017)

well, when i moved my shop to house, i rewired the garage, put double duplexes everywhere, put a total of 5 20 am circuits in, each double had two circuits, while one does not usually use that much power at one time, i decided if my generators can run five to 6 skil saws, and a compressor, then by golly i should be able to in my garage.

in teh summer it will work, as i'll be using fans a couple coolers to keep me self cool, and lotsa hand tools.

just because its wired for it, doesn't mean you'll use it, but when you do, well there you have it.

i did a couple 220v outlets with multiple types of plugs, my welders have different than table saw and the stand alone compressor, I made almost all the big stuff plug in, so in case i decided i wanted to re arrange things.

good luck, lotsa fun coming up, putting together a flow pattern helps to determine locations.
merry christmas
Rj in az


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## John Smith_inFL (Dec 15, 2017)

your electrician . . . is this just a local electrical contractor?? or the actual code inspector.

good layout - but this is where you should have purchased a recent NEC book.
(NEC = National Electrical Code).
then- visited your local building, planning and permit office in person for a copy of THEIR requirements.
there are specific codes for putting conduit and wiring in a concrete floor. and put a LOT of thought into placement.
once it is sealed up it is there for all of eternity.
and you said: I worry a tiny bit about reconfiguration putting outlets right in a walking path.
which is a valid concern. a floor outlet out in the open is fine until you plug something into it.
then it quickly becomes a trip hazard.
so floor outlets should be limited to be very close to stationary equipment, work benches, etc.
codes are written to encompass the likely hood of several people in that space at one time. (not always just you).
example: you may have a party or weekend work session in that little shop some day
and increases the possibility of someone getting hurt.

I just moved to a new city and applied for a building permit only to find that this city
has their OWN codes along with Florida's codes along with the National Codes.
a simple job quickly turned into a big headache. not to mention the COST for the permits.

good luck with your inspection - please let us know how it turned out.


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## bobspryn (Dec 5, 2017)

> No on the floor outlets. Put in some ceiling outlets. 10 is about right on 240 or more. I put in 3 and right now if I had four I would use it.
> 
> - johnstoneb


Don't quite follow. 10 is about right on 240 or more? Meaning 10 240 outlets? I have 4 marked (red - two of them in floor).


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## bobspryn (Dec 5, 2017)

> your electrician . . . is this just a local electrical contractor?? or the actual code inspector.
> 
> good layout - but this is where you should have purchased a recent NEC book.
> (NEC = National Electrical Code).
> ...


Good thoughts. Wouldn't have known to do that I guess. You have me on the fence about floor outlets, along with the other poster. Although, it's a small enough space that the chances of having a wide open path in the middle area there at *any* time are pretty small. I guess worst case scenario, I don't use that plug. Or I could go 220V outlets in the ceiling as well, but then you've got cords hanging down to power big machines.

Wondering if I should add more 220V outlets to the surrounding wall. It would be fairly easy for me to run new outlets in the ceiling later, harder for wall (would have to be conduit).

So the double circuits to the quad 110V outlets around the wall isn't overkill then? Maybe I should do that in the ceiling ones too?


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## John Smith_inFL (Dec 15, 2017)

10 gauge wire to 220/240v outlets on a single dedicated breaker. (usually 50amp).
I have been in *5* lightning related scenarios. and when I see electrical cords hanging
from the ceiling, I get the heebie-jeebies like you would not believe.
lightning LOVES electrical wires that go up and down.

DISCLAIMER: just be advised that YOU have the sole responsibility to know, understand and follow
all codes and regulations and have all safety procedures in place prior to operation.
any information or suggestions derived from this forum is strictly for example purposes only.
it is up to you to know the electrical and building codes for your particular applications.

for example: if you have an electrical cord hanging from the ceiling, and it does not meet code,
and it attracts lightning into your shop and destroys a bunch of stuff and starts fires and stuff,
your insurance carrier may not cover the damage. if your workshop is connected to your home,
like a converted garage, and your house burns down from non-code additions, your home may
be a total loss and all repairs will come out of your pocket. try to explain THAT to your wife !!!!


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## sawdustdad (Dec 23, 2015)

Wire gauge is determined by the amperage of the breaker, not the voltage. You definitely need an electrician to help you with this job!

I recently wired my new shop. I would not run two separate circuits to the same box, but you can alternate outlets on the two circuits down the length of the wall. I'd be concerned that someone else in the future would open the breaker to the box not realizing that there were actually two breakers. I guess you could tie them together in the panel, but then, the new owner would be looking for a 240 volt outlet to match that breaker. So, bad idea I think.

Run outlets in the ceiling. I had some floor outlets in my last shop and it allowed me to build an "island" of tools around the outlets. In my new shop, they are all in the ceiling. My thought was I need to run dust collection anyway from the ceiling, so the cords from the ceiling outlets run down with the dust collection ducting. If the outlets in the ceiling are in the wrong spot (due to moving tools) it's easier to run across the ceiling than across the floor…


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## bobspryn (Dec 5, 2017)

Ok, great thoughts.

To be clear, I'm definitely having an electrician do this. The walkthrough is to explain to him where I want everything.

I'm thinking of sticking with floor outlets for a tool island, but will also have ceiling outlets. I figure worst case scenario, I don't use the floor outlets. Right?

I'll start with two overhead 110s, keep the 220s on the floor and in the wall. Maybe I should add more 220s around the wall than the two I've planned.

I'll consider just alternating circuits on each outlet instead of per box. I suppose at 4', they aren't that far apart if I need to plug two things in. Though they may be occupied, or hidden behind a miter saw station.


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## gmc (Jun 30, 2012)

My issue with floor outlets was the amount of care you had to take in keeping sawdust and water out of them. Even the cleanest of shops get dirty for a period of time and the dust looks for the lowest spot on the floor. Inevitably you spill something and you hope is not near the outlets. While they are great when they are placed exactly where needed they leave no room for compromise. Good luck hope everything works out for your new space.


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## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

Of course more circuits is always better.

I recently had an addition done and took a lot of time on electrical. Make certain that you have everything written out on what you are getting and where it is going. It makes things easier. On my job they failed to do somethings as was agreed and was no effort to show them the plan and get it corrected. As I learned at work…"verbal orders do not go"..everything in writing.

Matt also want to consider Ethernet and cable if you have any future need.


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## cathode (May 18, 2014)

> 10 gauge wire to 220/240v outlets on a single dedicated breaker. (usually 50amp).
> I have been in *5* lightning related scenarios. and when I see electrical cords hanging
> from the ceiling, I get the heebie-jeebies like you would not believe.
> lightning LOVES electrical wires that go up and down.
> ...


10awg wire must be on a 30A breaker or smaller. A 50A breaker will not protect 10awg wire before it heats up and catches something on fire.


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## John Smith_inFL (Dec 15, 2017)

I have 2 220v outlets with 10awg wire on 50 amp breakers.
inspected and approved by a licensed home inspector as well
as the local city code inspector when I bought this house.
I agree - it should be 8 ga wire for 50 amps but it was passed
by the powers that be (Florida) and I'm not changing it.
the previous home owner had a TIG welder outlet on the back patio
and his RV outlet on the side of the house.
that is what I am referring to in my circumstance.










that is why I strongly suggest everyone doing household modifications to consult
with their local code enforcement officials and the NEC book before proceeding into unknown territory.

.


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## Gilley23 (May 9, 2017)

Ok, if you really want to cover yourself for the future, have him pull a 10-3 to all of your outlets. That will give you (2) dedicated 120v circuits in each outlet right now and in the future you can change it over to a 220, up to 30a. Make sure that he breakers them all on 20a breakers and installs 20a receptacles.


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## Gilley23 (May 9, 2017)

Don't listen to any of this talk about "so and so did this" and "I heard that you can do that" or "I got away with this in my house" bs. I don't get into any of the electrical discussions here because when it comes to electrical, suddenly everyone here is an expert and quite often times gives COMPLETELY incorrect information.

Listen to your electrical contractor and have it inspected. No inspection + fire = no insurance claim for you.


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## bobspryn (Dec 5, 2017)

> Ok, if you really want to cover yourself for the future, have him pull a 10-3 to all of your outlets. That will either give you (2) dedicated 120v circuits in each outlet or in the future you could change it over to a 220, up to 30a. Make sure that he breakers them all on 20a breakers and installs 20a receptacles.
> 
> - Gilley23


That's exactly what he's doing at his suggestion (well, out of my request for each 110 to have multiple circuits). I'm also having him run some 10 AWG 220s around the shop, and to the floor outlets, and he's going to run 50A to the 12×12 box that the floor outlets are going to pull off of, so in the future I could pull 8 AWG through the pipe and have 50A in the floor where the tool island is.


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## Gilley23 (May 9, 2017)

Good call!


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## Fresch (Feb 21, 2013)

Where and what size is your service?
Are you going to have a sub panel and what size is it going to be?


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## klassenl (Feb 13, 2011)

I have floor plugs in my garage for my table saw and associated outfeed table as well as one for my assembly table. A good floor plug will allow you to close it if it's not being used and it won't be a tripping hazard.

I also have dust collection under the floor.

Make sure your measurements are correct for anything embedded in the concrete.


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## bobspryn (Dec 5, 2017)

House service is 200A in basement. Going to have a sub panel, not sure exactly how big. Going on rec of electrician.

Electrician has talked me out of floor plugs a bit due to the expense in favor of drop plugs. Hoping I won't regret that.


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

I would not do floor outlets.

I totally agree with Gilley32 but my experience is even though you're electrician "should" know what to do, don't depend on it. My electrician (who is a union guy and does commercial wiring) wired my 5HP compressor with #12 wire on a 30A breaker. I questioned him about this and he assured me it was ok. Maybe, but within a month I replaced the capacitor and immediately rewired with #10.

#12/20A 220 will suffice for any machine 3HP or less. All my machines are on one circuit.

A definite "yes" on running an auxiilary circuit for shop vac in conjunction with miter saw, router, etc. I wish I had done this.

I also recommend surface wiring in conduit or armor flex rather than romex inside a wall. It costs a little more, but the pay off is tremendous flexibility in adding/modifying/re-routing circuits in the future for example if you add or relocate a machine..


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## bobspryn (Dec 5, 2017)

Yeah we are doing 10 gauge for all the 220s to support up to 30A. He said he would be surprised if I ever needed 50A, but if I do, I will run some conduit at that point to where I need it.

He is weaving the 110V circuits like mentioned, using 3-10 wire and 220V breakers.

Instead of the floor outlet, I'm having him add another circuit of 110 in the ceiling for potential drop cords, and a 220 as well.

This guy definitely knows his stuff, so I'm feeling pretty confident.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Keep in mind, on this or another forum, a guy hired a licensed electrician and he installed outlets with mere 14 gauge wiring, claiming that was all that was required. Just because someone is licensed does not mean they are worth the powder to….....

Rather than floor outlets, I went with ceiling 240 and 120 outlets for the reasons stated. I'd rather see a cord hanging down than trip over it.

With exception of only a few, such as those that land under a window, all my outlets are at a height I don't have to bend over to plug a vac or drill in.

Several of my boxes are doubles. For example, I have my bandsaw, scroll saw and a light plugged in, leaving one for a drill or a…..... Over by the drill press, it shares outlet realestate with a charging station and a light.

I have the room, so ran two circuits down each wall and leap frogged them. That way, when a buddy is over, we can be working equipment off outlets on the same wall with less concern of tripping a breaker.

With exception for the 240 outlets, ALL my outlets are 20 amp (12 gauge).

I have two overhead lighting circuits run off light switches (three-way, since I have two man doors). If one bank trips, the other would remain on.

Don't forget the exterior outlets for the electric chainsaw, trouble lights, leaf blower, weed eater…...

I'm upping my panel to 220, just like my house. Of course, a couple electricians say it isn't necessary, but…...

On a normal day, I'm running:

15 amp collector
10 amp saw
5 amp stereo
40-60 amp HVAC
15/20 amps for lights (buff station, grind station, plating station, outdoor lights, twenty or so shop lights)

on another day, a buddy drops by and kicks in:

15 amp for the second (of three) collectors
7 amp bandsaw….....

Meanwhile, I kick in:

5 amps for my charging station to re-juice the impact driver/drill (timed)
5 amps to have the neighbor kid weed eat around the back of the shop
10 for the electroplating/electoforming station
5 amps to throw a trickle on the van
. . . .


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

As to the inspectors who authorized a 50amp breaker on a 10gauge, please don't go there (if you have an electrician, he wont).

I've seen many things ignored or missed by inspectors and some pretty goofy things done by electricians. They have off days just like the rest of us. Too, many suffer the "[w]ell, that's all code calls for" syndrome. Remember, codes are minimums and it's okay to do better than they require.


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## Gilley23 (May 9, 2017)

> Don t forget the exterior outlets for the electric chainsaw, trouble lights, leaf blower, weed eater…...
> 
> - Kelly


Man card officially revoked.


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## Gilley23 (May 9, 2017)

He's already said that his electrician is installing 10g wire everywhere, let's not over complicate things.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

I have a gas rig for the road, but my Makita trumps every gas rig around for use in my shop. The exhaust is much easier to tolerate and one horse on it will stomp all over any one horse gas out there. The oil gas mix for it is, well, just really not much of an issue, and it starts every time.





> Don t forget the exterior outlets for the electric chainsaw, trouble lights, leaf blower, weed eater…...
> 
> - Kelly
> 
> ...


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## bobspryn (Dec 5, 2017)

19 circuits later, they are mostly done.


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