# A question for the Electricians out there



## jmos (Nov 30, 2011)

I'll apologize in advance for being long winded, but I want to try to provide enough info to get a meaningful answer.

I'm pulling together the details for installing a dust collection cyclone in my shop, which requires a new 30amp 220v breaker. My house is fairly new (~6yrs old). When the place was wired they installed a 200amp 40 slot panel. They only left two open slots, which I've filled with 110v circuits for my basement/shop. So, I need more space for breakers. There is room immediately below the main panel to mount another (smaller box). I'm thinking 10 or 12 slots and 60amp capacity should do it. I'm contacting licensed electricians and I was hoping to get some details from some knowledgeable folks here so I know if they are blowing smoke at me or not.

Can you just put in a new panel with individual breakers below the existing box (using the existing house main 200amp breaker), or does the sub panel need it's own main? If it does, should this main be located in the new box, or in the main box (i.e., remove two circuits from the main box, install a 60amp 240v breaker and use that to feed the new box)? If it has it's own breaker, do you tap the power above the main 200amp breaker, or below?

Also, since this is in a basement (but will be mounted near the ceiling) does the new 30amp 220v circuit need to be GFCI? If so, is it best to get a GFCI breaker, or install a GFCI outlet?

Is there anything else I should know to ask these guys about this?

So far I got one quote, over the phone, for $680; sound reasonable? Seems high to me. Looking at HD's website, a Seimens box (matches the brand I already have) is about $40, and a 60 amp breaker is around $30 (not GFCI); call it $100 in parts, I'm guessing no more than 3 hours in labor, so $580 in labor seems high. Am I missing something, or are they going to charge me for a full day since they probably can't get another job for the rest of the day?

I know that's a lot to ask, and I appreciate any assistance anyone can provide. Thanks in advance. (Oh, I'm in New Jersey if it matters.)


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## Sawkerf (Dec 31, 2009)

Hard to say if that quote is reasonable since nobody has actually looked at your job. If it were me, I would get someone to come to your house so you can define your requirements/desires, and they can give you a bid based on knowing the actual situation.

Mkae sure that it's a licensed electrician and you/he/she pulls all necessary permits.


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## Manitario (Jul 4, 2010)

I have several sub-panels installed off my main panel, including a 100 amp panel for my garage/shop. The breaker for the sub-panel goes into your existing panel, (ie. above the 200 amp main breaker). I can't comment on the electrical code for NJ; GFCI breakers are pricey (especially for 60 amps!) but I'd do it, even if not required by code.


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## jmos (Nov 30, 2011)

I've got appointments with two other electricians on Monday and calls into two more; all licensed. I do plan on getting permits. I put in my shop circuits myself, and I plan on ripping them out if I ever sell the place, but I want this done permanently.

I was a little surprised with some of the things the guy told me, and his quote, so I though I'd run it by the folks here and try to get some better info. I hate not knowing exactly what needs to be done to tell if the scope is real or padded.


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## Charlie5791 (Feb 21, 2012)

They make breakers for your 110 circuits where you get 2 breakers in the space of one breaker. If you have 15amp circuits (usually lighting, smoke detectors, non-kitchen outlets, etc…) you can compress some space and not even need a new panel box. HOWEVER, you still need a qualified electrician to be sure you're not exceeding the rating of the current panel box. If you have a 200 amp service (I have the same) and you're using 40 slots already, I'm assuming you have a fairly large house. He'll need to look at the existing loads to see if this is even possible without upgrading the service to higher amperage.


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## jmos (Nov 30, 2011)

Charlie, thank you for reminding me! Total brain fart; I'm aware of half height breakers, used them in the past, and for some reason, completely forgot about them! I could consolidate a four first/second floor lighting circuits with half height breakers and make enough room for a 30amp 220v breaker.

My house is a decent size, the electrician really spread out the circuits. There must be three or four general lighting circuits for each floor, not including receptacles. I've never seen anything like it. I'm not concerned about adding one additional 30 to the panel.

I'll still get the estimates, but I think I'm going to end up going that route.

Thanks again!


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## bent (May 9, 2008)

i'd say $680 is reasonable. i'm an electrician and my co-workers that do residential work all charge about $1000 for a full panel upgrade. your subpanel bid seems in line with that.


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## crank49 (Apr 7, 2010)

Mantario, I'm not sure what you meant about "The breaker for the sub-panel goes into your existing panel, (ie. above the 200 amp main breaker)." but to me, "above the main breaker" means directly on the main feed before the main breaker. NO. This would require wiring the sub feed breaker onto hot feeds. The main breaker for the sub panel goes on the buss in the regular panel along with all the other breakers.

Anyway, I was going to suggest the double breakers and that sounds like the way the OP is going so it really does not matter at this point.

Also, you can't really overload a breaker panel. If you count up the total capacity of all the small breakers in a typical panel the total will be much more than the main.

i.e. If you had 40 slots filled with 15 amp breakers that would be 600 amps total; way more than the stated 200 amp capacity.

It works because everything is never fully loaded and on at the same time and if it ever got over the 200 amp capacity of the main, it would trip and protect the main feed and panel. The normal expected usage is typically about 20% of installed capacity.


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## Manitario (Jul 4, 2010)

Michael, I meant into the panel with the rest of the breakers. I didn't describe it very well. I try to keep away from the hot feeds!


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## crashn (Aug 26, 2011)

Install the 60 to 100 amp sub panel below existing panel.
Re-route / re-wire the 2 existing 110v workshop circuits to the new sub panel
feed sub panel with 220 from the 2 freed up slots in main panel, with appropriate new double pole breaker.
feed cyclone from new sub panel.

easy as pie


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## jmos (Nov 30, 2011)

Thanks all.

Crashn, that really doesn't sound too bad, and I would be game to do it myself. I do most of my own wiring. I'm more concerned about permits. I haven't gotten permits for any of the work in my shop (like putting up walls or running electric) so I really don't want to invite the inspector to take a look. If I used a licensed electrician I doubt they would even bother looking at it. Maybe I'll go that route and just plan on ripping it out if I ever move, as I plan to do to my shop walls and wiring. I know everything is safe, I just hate dealing with our Borough permitting guys.

Bent, I appreciate the input, but I still struggle with the estimate. $1000 to disconnect dozens of circuits, pull out an old fuse panel, install a new panel with dozens of new breakers, and reconnect everything doesn't sound terrible. This is just mounting a small panel, moving two circuits, and providing one new breaker; $680 just seems steep to me. Maybe I'm just cheap.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

You have lots of time involved getting a full service panel changed that still happens just adding a sub-panel. It is hard to get much done for less than 5 or 600 other than a basic service call to do a simple troubleshoot and repair. I very seldom quote anything but that at less than 500.

40 circuits is the max allowed in a panel board. If you have a full sized 40 circuit panel, you will have to use a sub. the double breakers that fit a single full sized space will not fit in your panel.


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## jmos (Nov 30, 2011)

Topomax, I was hoping you would jump in. When you say 40 is the max, I assume you mean by code?

I do have a 40 breaker panel that is completely full; 38 installed by the original electrician and two I added. Physically, why wouldn't double breakers fit in place of single breakers? It's a Seimens panel with type QP breakers; it looks like they sell ones that are two breakers in a single width housing.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Yup, code limits manufacturers to 40. The panels and breakers are designed so you can't put more than 40 in them. If you ave a 20/40, it will take doubles in all 20 spaces or 20 full sized. A 30/40, only 10 will take doubles or full sized, 20 will take full sized only making a total possible of 40. A 40 will not take any doubles, only full sized.


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## Rxmpo (Feb 23, 2008)

JMos- I'm no electrician, but i just had a 100amp sub-panel installed a few weeks ago in my basement. The wire (and it is a big "wire" ) is just run out of the 200amp main panel as one double 50amp breaker. I have a 30 slotted box that too was full. I thought I needed a new main, but he just cannibalized two of the slots somehow. He installed GFCI outlets off of the sub-panel.

Price $700. I had a friend who's brother's an electrician tell me to expect between $700-$800 for installation. Guy was done within 2 hours. I live within 3 hours of you up in NY so our prices should be similar. Happy I did it. This guy helped me in a jam before and wouldn't take any money so I didn't even think of shopping around, but there are lots of out of work union electricians around who might like a quick side job. Might be worth doing some searching if you have the time to wait.


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## crashn (Aug 26, 2011)

You are right, its not too bad to do. I did it myself, in EXACTLY the same way, but my subpanel is in the workshop, with 10/3 running between the main panel and sub. I recently had to do a service entrance upgrade, and only a Master electrician can pull the permit for that, and when the inspector came, he passed my work along with the electricians in one shot. I don't even think he knew that the subpanel was done before the main panel upgrade. 
Good luck and when done, you will enjoy the new service in your workshop


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## kizerpea (Dec 2, 2011)

the two breaker in one are called piggy back..if it were me .i would the 60amp breaker in your exsisting panel an the sub panel in the basement…that way if theres a problem u can kill all the power ourside the basement..just my toooo cents.. that makes easy access to wire your new tools…


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## jmos (Nov 30, 2011)

Thanks again all.

Rxmpo, thanks for the price check. If the guy was done in two hours, which is about what I think it would take me to do it, than we're really paying for the guys day, not the job. I can understand that, hard to put together a lot of little jobs in one day, and the guy deserves to get paid for his time.

I'll be curious to get the other bids.


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## jmos (Nov 30, 2011)

Topamax; another question I'm sure I know the answer to, but I'll ask anyway - I assume it's a no-no to combine two lightly loaded 10v circuits in the breaker box to free up slots?


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## bent (May 9, 2008)

you're correct, you can't do that. you're not allowed to make joints in a panel.


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## RogerC (Dec 20, 2011)

You could probably skip the sub panel altogether. Just swap put 2 twin breakers in your existing panel, freeing up to slots for you to put in your double pole 30A


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

jmos, depends on the circuit's purpose. Circuits required by code, I would say no. In reality, I see it done a lot in smaller older panels.

Speaking of costs for small jobs, I recently priced one for an acquaintance. I think he was expecting a price of about $200. I was 4x that. $200 would just about covered the material. another $100 for a permit. He was an hour away running $4.50/gallon diesel. Overhead such as insurance, advertising, ect has to be covered everyday. If I work for free, the grocery store won't give me free food ;-)) so it all ads up.

A general observation over the last 40 years: I have concluded a lot of people want laws to protect them from fly by night operators, but don't really want to pay the cost of compliance when they find out how expensive that can get.


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## jmos (Nov 30, 2011)

Topomax, I hear you, and I don't expect anyone to work for free. Just a little sticker shock for a job that will probably only take 2 hours. I've got two other guys coming out to quote, and I'll see how they fall. I'll probably end up hiring one of them; I don't have any problem running circuits myself but I'd prefer to know this is done right with proper permits.

Roger, if TopomaxSurvivor is correct (and I have no reason to suspect he's not) the dual breakers won't fit in my box since it's a 40 slot box (post #13). I will check it out. If it will work, I'll do that. If not, I'm stuck with a sub panel.

Again, thanks to all. Any other options or ideas would be appreciated.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

You would have to make illegal modifications to make them go in the 40 circuit panel ;-(

I wasn't picking on your price/sticker shock, just making a casual observation of a lifetime expectations most people have. I have done a lot of work under the widows/ orphans program for those who obviously are in financial woes; but, I have bills to pay and its on a time available basis.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

I'm not an electrician, but I do all my own wiring. I read books and follow codes to the letter; even have it inspected. It ain't rocket science although electricians will make you think it is. If they can learn how to do electricial work, so can you. Just remove 2 110 breakers and replace with a 2-pole breaker for the 220 take-off in your main panel to feed the auxiliary panel. You could reroute the wires from the removed breakers to the new box, or you can use the half size breakers.


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## DanLyke (Feb 8, 2007)

On the GFCI breakers vs outlets question: I'm in the process of finishing up my workshop, and when I wrote up the description for the electrical permit I spec'd GFCI breakers. Before I looked at the price difference.

Ho. Ly. Crap. Those things are expensive. I mean, I'm kind of glad I went with breakers rather than sockets because I've got a whole shload of circuits in the shop, and keeping the first socket on each of those easily accessible for resets could be hard, given that I've got stuff around the walls. However, if I did it again I think I'd lay things out so that I could get away with GFCI sockets as the first socket on each of the circuits, and put 'em in a place where they were accessible.

Oh, I'd also add: My experience with inspectors is that they're amazingly willing to accept "done is done", and they're happy to be an extra set of eyes on new work. The goal is to make sure the building is safe (for you, but more importantly for future occupants), and taking you to task for everything that may have happened in the past doesn't help them get more eyes on more construction.


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## jmos (Nov 30, 2011)

Anyone know what wire I would have to use to feed the 60amp sub-panel? Some things I see say 6/3 Romex works, but some say 6/3 is only good to 55 amps. 4 gauge is hard to find. Would 6 gauge THHN work? Or would I be into 2-2-2-4 service cable?

It would literally be a 3 foot run, as I'd mount the new panel next to, or below, the existing panel.


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## DanLyke (Feb 8, 2007)

I would put it in conduit and run (over-sized, 'cause that's how I roll) THHN.


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## jmos (Nov 30, 2011)

Very interesting, had two morer electricians come out. The first gave me an estimate of $600 plus the cost of the permit, and they planned on installing the box directly below the existing panel, which I'm pretty sure is a code violation (must have clear space above and below if I understand correctly.)

The last estimate was for $325 plus the permit. That's on heck of a spread. He actually sounded like the most knowledgeable of the three; said he would install an 80amp sub-panel since the material cost would be the same as for the 60amp. Did confirm service cable was the way to go, and it's rated well above 80, and the breakers cost the same, so why not go for 80.

Boy, it really does pay to get multiple bids. For that cost it doesn't make sense to do it myself.

Now let's see how long it takes to get the job scheduled.

Thanks again to everyone for the input.


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## Rxmpo (Feb 23, 2008)

Good luck John…Interested to see how this thread ends.


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## jmos (Nov 30, 2011)

Just in case anyone was wondering, here's how it worked out.

I contracted with the guy who bid $325 plus permit fee. He came out and did the work about 10 days later. It took about three weeks for the electrician to get all the permit paperwork from the Borough. I had the Borough Inspector out today. No issues; he spent about ten minutes looking at it and signed off.

I've now got a 20 slot 80 amp sub-panel. Total cost ended up $384; $325 parts and labor and $59 for the permit. He used service cable for the tie between the main panel and the sub.

He did a really nice neat professional job too. I'll go to him again if I need an electrician.


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