# Fair price for a table?



## kfpe (Mar 7, 2021)

Hi. This is my first ever project. Friend asked me if I can make him workbench/table for his new 3d printing machine. I have a small saw mill and access to fresh wood. So everything was made inside the house by me. I think the wood which I used was black oak, but I'm not 100% sure. Dimensions 60/22/34. Now, when it's done I wonder what can be a fair price for solid oak table of that size? Thanks for help.


----------



## xedos (Apr 25, 2020)

How many hours will you spend making the 2nd one ?

"Fresh" wood isn't really the best material to make a table out of. Or any furniture for that matter.


----------



## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

It's a good looking table . I would think a couple hundred bucks is fair.
Good Luck


----------



## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

2x materials or actual T&M. Or cost only for a "friend"


----------



## 1thumb (Jun 30, 2012)

> 2x materials or actual T&M. Or cost only for a "friend"
> 
> - Madmark2


i'm at 4x materials for a finished product


----------



## 987Ron (Apr 9, 2020)

> 2x materials or actual T&M. Or cost only for a "friend"
> 
> - Madmark2
> 
> ...


Could someone explain the rational for making a big profit off some materials.
I am not a professional. I am not condemning the 2x or 4x on materials. 
I understand costs of storage and having immediate access as a pass on-cost.

Scenario A cabinet with two doors. Two sets of Busso Hinges at $23.20 a set. (Lee Valley). 
Total cost$46.40, 2x material $92.40 or 4x $185.60 Profit for 2×46.40 or 4x $139.20
That's a lot of increase.

If a bookcase was built with no hinges or hardware .... no additional profit

Other trades do similar, auto repair for one. Just never understood why the tradesman is entitled to this.


----------



## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

Its not markup. Its markup in place of labor.

As a general rule the price doubles at each stage of production and distribution. Say you make widgets that have $5 in materials and 15 minutes of labor. At $15/hr minimum wage that 15 minutes is $3.75. So now your COGS (cost of goods sold) is $8.75. But you can't sell it at that price because there is no profit to pay the taxes, rent, electricity, water, equipment, etc.

To survive you have to make a profit by selling at $17.50 to a wholesaler. The wholesaler then ships it around the country (burning lots of fuel and more labor) to retailers at $35 each. The retailer needs to pay store rent and sales staff, etc. so the price doubles again to $70 for the consumer.

Consumers scream that its gouging or a rip off to sell something that only has $5 of materials for $70 retail, but thats just how it is. Even if you eliminate the wholesaler and deal directly with the retailer (as I do with my pipes & the smoke shop) it's still retailing for 4x your direct costs just for everyone to break even.

All of these costs *have* to be covered if you want to stay in business. Because if you don't, you won't be in business.

Now if I'm making for friends then I only charge 1x materials and write the rest off to charity.


----------



## 987Ron (Apr 9, 2020)

Thanks for the reply. I have a better understanding now.


----------



## LesB (Dec 21, 2008)

That looks like a nice well made table/work bench.

You say it is your first "project" and from the appearance I'm thinking it it not your first building project but maybe your first commission? Because woodworking is not my business when I do agree to build something for a friend I usually only charge out of pocket costs plus a little for wear and tear on my equipment (saw blades and etc). If it is a friend the estimated price should be agreed in advance so there is no disagreement later that might damage the friendship.

I did have one friend who got a bit too demanding after I agreed to sell her some of my lathe turnings at a "friends" priice. It turns out she was giving them to friends/family for gifts. So to discourage this I had to raise my prices. I had become an inexpensive source of nice gift items. Her request slowed way down after the prices went up.


----------



## wildwoodbybrianjohns (Aug 22, 2019)

Youve got your answer, cant really add more, except to say that standard markup at retail is 2 1/2 times wholesale. That is how my wife´s businesses operate.

My rule of thumb for the work I do is, build it earthquake-proof and charge alot!


----------



## Loren (May 30, 2008)

I'd think you should charge at least $800 for it considering all the time you put in, especially sanding.

That said, if you didn't quote a price up front you could offend your friend asking too much.


----------



## Ocelot (Mar 6, 2011)

I think you should agree on price, design and materials before beginning.

A *FRIEND* is an extremely valuable asset.

A table is just a table.

-Paul


----------



## 1thumb (Jun 30, 2012)

> 2x materials or actual T&M. Or cost only for a "friend"
> 
> - Madmark2
> 
> ...


i use it as a formula. 4x material + time to get materials+ delivery and installation. Price hinges, drawer slides, hardware different. if building a cabinet which has $200 of veneered sheet goods and 1 bys, I'm at $800 plus hardware cost, time to install hardware, + getn materials, del and install


----------



## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

I never have a good answer to this type question. But Leroy could build that table in 2 days. I could build that table in 2 weeks. Is my table worth more?


----------



## kfpe (Mar 7, 2021)

First of all I would like to say thank you for all the answers, they were really informative. I think I will go with "couple hundred" bucks for this one. The main reason, why I didn't have a clear deal with my friend was that I wasn't sure how good of a table I will be able to make. In the end I'm happy with the result. It took me a while to finish it, probably a full week of work or more, as a side project outside of my regular work. For sure this was a pleasant experience(most of the time and hopefully I will be able to make more things like this in the future!


----------



## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

Thats an $800.00 table/desk in my world. For a friend….$799.00


----------



## LeeRoyMan (Feb 23, 2019)

OP is just asking for a fair price to charge.

Not asking what it's worth.
For the latter, it doesn't matter if it takes 2 days or 2 weeks, you can only get what you get.
If I were being commissioned to build this for a client I would be charging north of 2,200.00
If I made this table and was just trying to sell it, might be lucky to get the 800.00 (in Tony's world. )

Also there are not enough details to say what should be charged. Are all the joints mortise and tenon,
butt joint glued and clamped, pocket screws? ? ?
I'm sure if I was building it, I would have a couple hundred bucks in just material.

PS There is no such thing as 2x,3x,or 4x material.


----------



## 1thumb (Jun 30, 2012)

> PS There is no such thing as 2x,3x,or 4x material.
> 
> - LeeRoyMan


sure there is. it's a big world out there. but i see your point. custom tables are different than custom closes, bookcases, built-ins, etc


----------



## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> sure there is. it s a big world out there
> 
> - 1thumb


It clearly exists, because its tossed around so often, but that doesn't give it validity.

I'm not going to take up space here since I'm sure your mind is no doubt made up, but I can list dozens and dozens of exceptions to that. Listen to LeeRoy. He's been a full-time pro for decades. You don't survive that (in Southern California no less) unless you know how to price your work.

One quick example. For cabinetry, I charge X dollars based on width, Y dollars per square foot of door area and Z dollars per drawer. It doesn't matter if the wood is walnut, maple or alder. That cost is insignificant.

Mesquite would be significantly more because, hey, it's mesquite. As would super-expensive exotics.


----------



## Foghorn (Jan 30, 2020)

Big difference between trying to make a living or even partial living at it and just having fun building things. For real friends, I charge material costs plus a little for shop supplies. That may change if I'm actually trying to profit on things I build for friends.


----------



## 1thumb (Jun 30, 2012)

> I m not going to take up space here since I m sure your mind is no doubt made up,
> 
> - Rich


My minds made up because as I described is how I price my work and have for years. Using that formula I hit on the same compensation per hour, give or take. But I have no idea how long an individual project will take. Thats why i do the 4x ++ There are different markets, different niches, different products, different price points, etc.


----------



## CaptainKlutz (Apr 23, 2014)

+1 true friends are hard to replace.

Not discussing a price before starting a project, has ruined several friend ships over years. 
Have told several family members to buy stuff from IKEA, and leave me alone for $50 they want to spend on coffee/end or kitchen tables.

The best Friend price is what ever they want to pay.

I find highest prices paid are; AFTER your give them a beer and spend 10-20 minutes telling them how many hours you spent, the challenges you overcame, and cost of lumber would be if you had buy it from lumberyard. 
Then ask them what it is worth to them.
Many times they will offer more than I am comfortable accepting from a friend.

You are not allowed to drink any beer while showing off your project, or you end with a 6 pack value for lumber, and 1 beer for every hour spent making it. After your Friend makes the beer run, they walk away with nice project, and all you have is a trash can of empties. BTDTGTTS

Regarding cost multipliers:
Spent decades setting up mfg, doing cost analysis, and dealing with markups. Always found the rule of thumb X times values based on material costs were 'close' to cost to produce a product. But they always missed the hidden costs. Can write volumes of text books on hidden costs, and product value; all of which are hotly debated.
When dealing with Friends these hidden costs are simpler: drinking beer or not drinking beer. 
That makes it very hard to put a value on a 'friend' project.

Best Luck.


----------



## rad457 (Jun 15, 2013)

> Thats an $800.00 table/desk in my world. For a friend….$799.00
> 
> - Tony_S


Had to check, you actually do have 17 buddies listed, (obviously not customers)
My Family price is usually free, friends, cost of material and a good bottle ?
LOL! everything built for Ma, is on loan only!


----------



## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> My minds made up because as I described is how I price my work and have for years. Using that formula I hit on the same compensation per hour, give or take. But I have no idea how long an individual project will take. Thats why i do the 4x ++ There are different markets, different niches, different products, different price points, etc.
> 
> - 1thumb


You should post some of your projects. I'm sure they're beautiful.


----------

