# sanding paste



## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

Hi i want to use a sanding paste on my turnings but they have oil and wax in them. Can I use shellac after using oil and wax thanks


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## Wildwood (Jul 22, 2012)

Never heard of sanding paste would be nice if provided a brand name of the product.

Know some turners using this product with mineral oil as a final finish or but with sandpaper, others use it over oil or film finish.
https://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/p/43/1270/staples-Crystal-Clear-Paste-Wax

Here is an old review and use of the product:
https://www.lumberjocks.com/reviews/product/3208

Not sure lot of turners still make their own bees wax & mineral oil mix to sand & finish their work these days. Have to heat bees wax and not burn it & mix with MO before sanding with it.

Was a post here month or so back where guy found vendor in US selling this stuff but think its an unecessary step in finishing process. 
https://turnerswoodproducts.com/products/combo-pack

I have and use Minwax furniture furniture polish or Johnson's paste floor wax on top of final finishes sometimes never before.


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## CaptainKlutz (Apr 23, 2014)

Sanding paste?

Local AZ club has write up on how to make your own sanding/polishing finish for wood turnings.
http://azwoodturners.org/pages/tips/HomemadeFrictionPolish.pdf

While not 'sanding paste', it does help sand while creating a polished surface. 
Since it has no wax, can apply additional top coats for extra protection if needed.

Can buy similar commercial solution from Doctor's Woodshop: http://doctorswoodshop.com/

YMMV


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## TheDane (May 15, 2008)

I suspect the OP is talking about Ack's Wood Paste ...


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## Wildwood (Jul 22, 2012)

Make your own:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=ack%27s+paste+wax+videos&&view=detail&mid=367CB8398B47BB6E842A367CB8398B47BB6E842A&rvsmid=718399C089860E187C0D718399C089860E187C0D&FORM=VDRVRV

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Garden-Safe-Brand-Diatomaceous-Earth-4-lb-Insect-Killer/3276739

That bug stuff less expensive than Tripoli powder!

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?LH_CAds=&_ex_kw=&_fpos=&_fspt=1&_mPrRngCbx=1&_nkw=tripoli+powder&_sacat=&_sadis=&_sop=12&_udhi=&_udlo=&_fosrp=1

Pure bees wax pretty expensive by the pound less if buy by the ounce not sure about cost to ship or how to change formula from shown in the video.

https://www.ebeehoney.com/beeswax.html

Bottle of mineral oil less than $2.00 at Walmart last time bought some.

Might be easier and about same cost to buy Ack's product or some other like it.

Whether use homemade or commercial product that's the only finish you need. You will have to sand to higher grit papers before using. If leave any visible scratches probably going to show after using sanding paste. Whether adding any top coat of finish will stick after using sanding paste is SWAG!

So finish with number of coats of shellac turning needs then use a sanding paste wax mix.


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

can use a shellac finish over an oil & wax paste, after the paste has been removed


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## gwilki (May 14, 2014)

I was assuming that you were talking about something like Yorkshire Grit or EEE-Ultra Shine. Both of these use a fine abrasive in a wax base.

If you remove the paste with mineral spirits, you can put a shellac finish over Yorkshire Grit for sure. I've done it. I used the Grit essentially as a very fine sandpaper. The first time I tried to put a finish over it, the results were not spectacular. I think that I did a poor job of removing the wax. When it took the wax off with mineral spirits, the results were better.


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## OSU55 (Dec 14, 2012)

I use automotive products on turnings. Depends on the actual finish and the look I want, but wet/dry sandpaper, used with poly if thats the finish, or oil or water for fully filled lacquer. Lacquer gets finished out with Meguiars compounds for the final shine. For poly wipe on, Vinces Woodandwonders sells white polishing pads for drill use that are used to polish and apply wax.


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## Wildwood (Jul 22, 2012)

Think the simpler you keep your finishing procedure easier and less time consuming also less expensive!

Ack's & Yorkshire essentially the same thing with minor difference in chemistry maybe. EEE Shine little different in that Shellwax recommended for final top coat. You have a wax either bees, carnauba, or both types, mineral or some other oil, and fine powder and make an easy to apply friction finish by themselves! Yorkshire says can use a top coat of finish on top of their product and guess you can if use recommended top coats. Homebrew's contain pretty much same ingredients.

These sanding pastes with waxes probably good stand alone finish on closed grain or exotic oil woods not so sure about cross or open grain woods! Definitely think twice about using these products over wood with blemishes or defects such as knots or wood with bark still on.

Have my doubts just how well these products deal with scratches on bare wood. Where they probably excel is removing blemishes or smoothing out final film finish! Also if want to go from high gloss to matt or satin finish. A less expensive alternative to removing blemishes or smoothing out a film finish is wet sanding with micromesh.

Honestly think starting with & ending with right grits of sandpaper on dry wood should remove all but minor blemishes & scratches. Don't know any film finish that won't hide those!


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

thanks for your information, I am not trying to replace sanding. from videos i have seen sanding paste is used above 220. so yea I have to sand right to begin with. My concern for topcoating with shellac is wet sanding with mineral oil and beeswax, I have some but didn't want to ruin the bowl for finishes if I use it


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Below is the past I make myself (published on the instructables web site):

https://www.instructables.com/id/Making-and-Using-Inexpensive-Buff-Compounds-for-Wo/

This is what my turnings look like after using the paste, then spraying lacquer over, making it obvious shellac would do just fine.


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

thanks for the information, i would never have thought of using a toilet ring. I'm glad it can be top coated with shellac thanks Mike


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## Wildwood (Jul 22, 2012)

Kelly, maybe missing something but don't see where your home brew adds anything to those items in the pictures posted! Some of the commercial products give specific final finishes to use over top of their products and some don't.

Kelly, regardless of color those wax bowl rings 100% petroleum wax that may or may not contain microbial additives guarding against mold, mildew, and bacterial growth on wax. Plumber have been calling them bees wax for long time but definitely not! Prior to addition those additives those wax rings would attract mold & mildew.

From reading your instructions; why can't people use regular paraffin wax another petroleum wax? Mike Peace explains why he prefers to use diatomanceous earth over pumice & rottenstone, pure bees wax and mineral oil in his video posted earlier. All of his ingredients are non-toxic and meant to be a final fish for his turnings.

JMHO, where sanding paste with or without wax excels is finishing the finish of other film finishes or as stand alone finish. A good paste wax alone can help remove flaws in a final finish by itself while on or off the lathe. Much expensive way today to finish the finish is simple micromesh sheets, wet sanding with drop of dish soap in the water!

Using sanding paste under a film finish can really gum up the procedure for many novice finishers!


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

My home brew is not a finish. It's a home made polish (or polishes).

The items pictured had to be polished to bring the plastics back to transparent. I sand to from 150 grit to 320 grit and use it to bring the plastic back.

You might notice my quote marks around the "wax." They were there for the obvious reason. I believe many of the so called wax rings are just the product of more manipulation of soy.

The only reason I didn't try the paraffin is, I don't remember where I put the five pound block so I wouldn't forget it, and it's harder to dissolve than the toilet ring. As long as it dissolves in the thinner, it's fair game, in my opinion, so it's worth a trial run. It may even work better in other applications.

Whoever Mike Peace is, I agree. I noted I like the diatomaceous earth even more than the finer powders, like cerium oxide and [green] chromium oxide for polishing wood and plastic. Still, it could be the others have their place. After all, the buff compounds we get downtown are all over the board (white, red, green, blue) for stainless, copper, plastic, glass. etc.

The photos are of turnings I used my polish on after sanding to 150 or 220. The only prep I did, before applying lacquer, was using a clean rag to remove most the residue.

I don't know I'd agree to the statement this and other compounds excel on other finishes, since this end result on these seems pretty decent to me, and those who've gotten one of these. The simple of it is, the plastics in these and other things I play with equate to a finish.

Note the only reason these have lacquer on the plastic portions is because it would be foolish to try to mask the plastic to keep the lacquer off it. Regardless, even with minimal effort, things like this have never shown signs of a problem, regardless if I was using a friction finish, poly, lacquer or shellac.


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## Wildwood (Jul 22, 2012)

By now, "OP," realizes sanding paste not what he expected! The need to strive for off the tool finish will shorten any ones sanding sequence. Sanding paste finishing products by themselves will remove scratches from wood.

Kelly meet Mike!
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=mike+peace+woodturner

Kelly you & Mike not the only turners using homemade oil, wax, & abrasive powders as a finish. Mixtures and procedure been around long before I ever got into turning wood. On many projects will serve as a final finish and of course some not so much.

If you found the perfect ingredients to make your finish and happy with the results that's all that matters. I use the Hut product on lot of acrylic pens.

Most wood finishers & re-finishers opt for simple & reliable products. Re-finishers especially those working with antiques may have more unusual products like dyes, oils, and powders they use on those rare occasions they need.


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

Hi, I appreciate everybody's input it is very informative and it helps. But I do know what sanding paste is for and am aware that proper sanding come first Fro the many replies I wonder if any body even read my question. It has nothing to do with sanding or how and when to use it here is my question. "Hi i want to use a sanding paste on my turnings but they have oil and wax in them. Can I use shellac after using oil and wax thanks "


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## Nubsnstubs (Aug 30, 2013)

> Fro the many replies I wonder if any body even read my question.
> - Karda


Being the spelling cop that I am, you need to put an "M" after FRO. Otherwise, I have to agree with the statement…..... Jerry (in Tucson)


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## lew (Feb 13, 2008)

Thanks for asking this question. I've wonder about this myself.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Wildwood, again, it is NOT a finish. I ONLY use it for polishing. Karda was asking about shellac over such things and I described what I made, how I used it, then showed photos of finishes on the turnings immediately after finishing the polishing.

IF you used this as a finish, it would be a crappy one. It would have little durability, AND the finish goes satin within hours or so.

I don't know why you needed to point out that I didn't invent polishing compounds or the use of them. My posts about my process of making it stated, clearly, I made them to save money buying commercial products. They, nowhere stated I thought I was the first person among the 300,000,00 American, all the Europeans or others in the world to reverse engineer, so to speak, the commercial products.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Karda, my posts above stated I used finishes over the turnings, after polishing with my "wax" based compound, without jumping through absurd hoops (e.g., running the turning with solvent on a rag to remove excess, etc.).

As noted above, the photos are of lacquer finished turnings. Of course, shellac is the go to base for many things, and less finicky than lacquer, but I use shellac too, just not with the specific items I showed.


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

I never said I wanted to use it as a finish. Kelly your article was very helpful that answered a lot of questions


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## Wildwood (Jul 22, 2012)

If do an internet search for "sanding paste," wont get a clear answer! Again what product are you talking about? 
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/sanding-paste-t50172.html

Karda you never say which product you are asking about. Instructions for these products quite clear about procedure and about final finish to use.

Acks wood paste




https://ackswoodpaste.com/

Yorkshire Grit
http://yorkshire-grit.com/product-page/





EEE Utra Shine
https://www.packardwoodworks.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=finish-shellawax





Yes many woodturners have been making & using their own homemade stuff as a final finish! On many applications that will suffice and of course not all.

With good quality sandpaper available today & proper sanding procedure are the commercial and homemade products necessary in finishing procedures? Only you can answer that question! They might serve you better to fix flaws in final finish if done correctly.

Do you need to remove all wax before applying a final finish? Only you can answer that question! Because that depends upon product and who you ask!


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## mpax356 (Jul 30, 2011)

I am Mike Peace and I did the series of videos listed earlier by Wildwood. Shellac will go over just about anything including a surface that used a sanding paste or abrasive paste. Just make sure you do clean up the surface of any excess paste/abrasive.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

I have at least $500.00 in sandpaper in my shop. That includes a lot of aluminum oxide, carbide and 3-M flavored stuff in rolls, hook-and-loop pads, and sheets. If I don't count siding sanders, grits range from 40 to 3,000, or higher, if you include the granite working stuff.

Add to that, I have jars of cerium oxide, chromium oxide, diatomaceous and so on. Then there are my various commercial buff compounds in sticks and liquids.

So, I agree. We have a metric ton of choices. However, the polishes I make up cost me a fraction of what, for example, the Festool disks or diamond polishing pads do. Too, they get into crevices the papers and cloth sand pads and such cannot.

Fine sandpapers and such load really quick and you can't use them with water or oil. On the other hand, loading a cloth or paper towel with compound is the game you want to play.

On removing the polish before applying finishes, it sounds like a good excuse to learn something, and to test reasoning skills.

For example, paint thinner, turpentine, delemonine and Naphtha all work to dissolve toilet ring wax and real bees wax and keep them fairly well suspended. Since these thin polyurethane too, it would stand to reason there is a good probability the poly would play well with an item polished then cleaned of the polish using a fresh paper towel or rag. Even more so, if cleaned with a cloth dampened in a solvent.

Then there is shellac. I haven't tested the "wax" with alcohol. Denatured or other. I use a lot of it though, both as a sealer and a quick and simple finish.

Think of shellac as kind of like Kilz, sans the pigment and binders.

I consider it so useful, I keep a jar of alcohol with a well used chip brush in it, next to a couple quarts of Zinsser (amber and clear) on my work station. When something needs a quick finish, I lift the brush, smack it against the insides of the jar, dip it in shellac and go for it.

Finally, there is the friction polish approach using shellac, linseed oil and alcohol. It takes longer to build coats on an lathe project, but it works too.

If these things don't work, it's only because you left five pounds of polishing compound on your turned item.


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

Hi, Sorry I didn't mention a product I didn't feel it was necessary when I mentioned wax and oil since many have one or both. I wanted to know if I can use that and then shellac. I have watched a number of videos and they don't mention final finish that I have noticed. Thanks Mike I learned of DIY sanding paste from your video. I have since made some and it work as advertised, now I wouldn't be without it Thanks Mike


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## Wildwood (Jul 22, 2012)

Closest thing ever came across that might be called sanding paste, while not used much these days is pumice or rottenstone and mineral oil (no wax) used with soft cloth or felt pads to rub out final film finishes.

I posted a picture here of a coin bank around top coin slot can see ring of pumice dust where that top fits bank. Thought had remove all pumice paste with old tooth brush after rubbing out the finish. Cannot find that post. Turned that item more than 20 years ago, dust didn't appear for almost a year. Don't use pumice paste on any turning any more!

Learn how to use that paste mix in furniture refinishing shop! We used a good paste wax on top of that. Back then rottenstone paste used after pumice but not at shop I worked at.

I have no experience or used (abrasive, oil, wax) commercial or homemade products but have been aware of them. Have always thought commercial products too expensive. Have met many turners that love their homemade versions. From what have seen over the years think those homemade products make excellent finish by themselves. Also plain wax finishes.

So don't worry about not mentioning the product or asking your question think lot of good information posted. Also lot of different opinions which very healthy for a message board!


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

I used dry pumice once when I was in jr high and never heard of rottenstone till recently. You are right a lot of good information. I do have one question. I used food grade diatomaceous earth. Is food grade necessary. I could buy it at home depot but it not food grade because its sold as an insecticide. Its not a poison but it does kill bugs by drying them out


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

All the stuff I'm using it straight out of the mine. It's not marketed as food grade, but it is the raw stuff that is put on grain to keep weevils down during storage, in animal food for parasites, . . .

Diatomaceous is also heated to a few thousand degrees, which crystallizes it for use in purification filters (wine, etc.). HOWEVER, because of the crystals it forms, when heated to high temps, it becomes lethal.

The main thing is, you need it in a fine powder (like any powder, avoid breathing it, for health reasons).

I was told diatomaceous earth kills many bugs because, when they crawl over it, it scrapes the protective coating off their bodies, leading to dehydration.


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

thanks kelly. I wonder what the difference is between food grade, just the package. Can you used beewax out of the hive or does it need to be purified thnks Mike


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

I don't have a spray booth, though I do have a Spraytech airless, a four stage HVLP Capsprayer and an Accuspray conversion sprayer.

The last spray worth job I did was at a friend's. Instead of spaying, I laid on seven coats of oil based poly. I sanded at about 400 using paper and buff pads between coats. I used water to wash away the dust, and to act as a lube.

On the final, I used an electric pad sander, 600 and a mineral oil. I wiped all that off and went to oil and pumice, then rottenstone, then McGuire's plastic polish. I still have McGuire's around, but do most my work with the mixes talked about above.

In the end, the final finish looks, exactly, like a good spray finish (no brush marks, high shine).


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

As long as debris is removed from the wax, it would work fine.

Over the years, like others, I suspect, I developed a subconscious assumption most commercially sold products were complicated and special, even in spite of obvious information to the contrary with things like cleaners and such.

A friend started nudging me in the "home made" direction with things like cleaning agents for the professional pressure washing businesses we ran. For example, he'd by sodium percarbonate by the forty pound bag. Mixed with water, it produced hydrogen peroxide and soda ash for cleaning and bleaching. Think of it as using a whole lot of Oxyclean.

Then there was caustic soda for beating down moss on Northwet roofs, before pressure washing. That caustic soda gets ALL crazy when small aluminum chips are mixed in the powder and the mix tossed in a toilet.

In the end, many of these things are just things guys like us played with, found worked, then marketed, pushing [the usual] convenience and effectiveness.


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

I agree, make your own if you can, how would go about removing the debris from the wax. That is nice furniture did you make them. wonderful job


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Haven't had to do it myself. I guess the first thing would be to liquefy the wax. That may mean dissolving it in solvent or a double boiler. After that, a T-shirt or pieces of sheet should be good enough. You might need something to squeeze the cloth with, if it's hot.

Anyone else got tips, or better guesses?

I didn't build the furniture. I just refinished them for a friend. They'd seen thirty years of use, on a large farm.

The closest I got to building in relation to it was a spindle on one of the chairs was missing. I replaced it. It was before I'd ever ran a lathe. I copied one of the others using my drill press and RotoZip, then rasps and sand paper. It took at least three hours, but I wanted to see if it could be done. It can. Of course, now that I have two lathes, I know the same job could have been done in twenty minutes, including most the finish.


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

If I ever get raw I 'll give it a try thanks Mike


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

I didn't read all the replies so maybe someone mentioned this but Hut Crystal Friction finish and Mylands Friction finish both have shellac, oil and wax in them so straight shellac should be compatible with oil and wax. I've applied both of these friction finishes after wet sanding with Howard's Feed and Wax, which is orange oil and wax, with no problems. I do clean off the slurry that forms from the wet sanding with mineral spirits and sometimes will do a light dry sanding after that with an even higher grit of paper first but not always. I have also applied a CA finish after wet sanding with Howards and cleaning the slurry with MS and had no problems there either.


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

thanks that is good to know


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

I just read through most of the other comments and have a couple of my own. If you are going to make your own paste using diatomaceous earth make sure that you do not get the kind of DE used in swimming pool filters but the kind used for gardening or as a food supplement. And make sure that the stuff from the garden center doesn't have any pesticides mixed in. The swimming pool DE is processed in a way that makes it really bad if you breath it in powder form prior to or while mixing. Or course you probably shouldn't breath the other stuff either but supposedly not as nasty if you get it in your lungs.

The other comment is probably as much a question as a comment related to mixing your own paste using mineral oil as one of the components. Since mineral oil is not a curing oil, I have to wonder if it is more likely than a oil that polymerises like BLO for example to cause problems when applying finishes later in the process? It seems like trapping some MO under another finish could be problematic for final curing or durability?


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

thanks for the warning I used food grade I am going to get some homecenter DE but for my kale. If I had that if it is ok I would use that. it good to know about the additive that might be in it. I thought mineral oil is a drying oil. I don't use it for a finish any more be it fad really fast


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

Mineral oil is considered a non-drying oil. It will evaporate over time but it does not cure and harden like BLO or tung oil do. A lot of people use it on cutting boards and in that application it mostly just washes off.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Lazyman, for future reference, mineral oil is called a non-hardening oil. When applied to wood, and it disapears, it is not evaporating, or drying. Rather, it is wicking deeper into the wood. It's somewhat like electricity or water, it seeks the dry/negative/empty spot.

YEARS ago, I applied motor oil to a cedar door I made for a garage, using what I found in a cedar mill spalt pile (the leavings from making shakes and shingles).

When done, I wanted the door to hold up for years, even though I was just renting. I applied the oil as I described above. At the end of the day, I walked away.

Three months later, the wannabe sunshine of Pacific Beach, Washington, kept the oil warm enough the 20-40 [or whatever] "seemed" to have evaporated. You could not tell I'd done anything. As such, I applied a second, liberal coat of non-hardening oil. This one lasted a whole three months too and, again, it looked like I'd done nothing.

I applied a third coat. Again, I was liberal in the application. Years later, you can still tell I applied the oil. This is because, rather than evaporating, the oil wicked deeper and deeper into the dry wood, just like with the butcher block.

The reason the last coat still shows is, the application of oil is cumulative, if the oil can wick. This may require heat or even thinning.

If you did a cedar roof this way, eventually, the oil would saturate the shakes or shingles. Being full of oil, they would not take on water. Too, they would remain somewhat resilient so that walking on them did not break them, as normally happens with brittle cedar.

Just handy stuff to know.


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## WoodyJ (Sep 6, 2020)

Better to put the shellac on first or a lacquer based sealer, then ssnding paste. Dont listen to the acks directions of sanding to 240 then using paste and calling that good. If there was a magic paste that allowed u to not have to sand up.through the grits everyone would sell it. Also beware his polish does not have much carnauba since it still is a white color. There are no white carnauba waxes in existence


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Just for reference, my posts of polished plastic and wood, above, show turned items polished with the fake beeswax and diatomaceous mix, before any finish was applied. Only after the polish paste brought the plastic back to clear and bright did I apply a spray can lacquer finish.


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## ArlinEastman (May 22, 2011)

I will add this since I have not read ALL of it.

Shellac is a great way to seal the wood and even using a few coats as a finish as well. Everything I know of will go over shellac but it will not go over a lot of other things.
I have only been using it for 10 years on wood turning and some flatwork so I can not attest to that.

Also shellac is what is part of what is Called French Polish but turners go not go thru all the same process and while turning on the lathe the heat will set it in faster also which is why a lot of Friction polishes have Shellac in it.

After a few coats of the shellac I sometimes buff with Carnauba wax and Renaissance wax last. Sometimes I put Lacquer and sometimes Wipe on Poly but with the last one does not always mix to well for some reason and sometimes it works great. I am sure it is what I am doing.

Last I would ignore WoodyJ's remarks since he has a big beef with them. See his other post for other honest people to.


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## woodbutcherbynight (Oct 21, 2011)

> There are no white carnauba waxes in existence
> 
> - WoodyJ


I beg to differ. Refine Carnauba wax will be a cream to white color.


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