# Pocket Hole Right Angle Alignment Issues



## RobSC (Jul 9, 2014)

I have tried many things to keep boards in alignment while driving pocket screws in boards at right angles to each other. I've achieved little success. I'm at the stage of disgust now. I just tried brad nails with high hopes since I never tried that one before only to see the same resulting misalignment of boards as always as soon as I drove in the pocket hole screws.

I've got Kregs right angle clamp that fits into the pocket hole and it does help but unless the hole you are clamping into is right next to the hole you are screwing into, the boards still shift when the screw is driven home. I put my pocket holes fairly close together also, 6 inches probably. And then your only solution would be to bore two pocket holes side by side at each location so you could use the right angle clamp to generate the necessary clamping pressure to prevent misalignment.

The only good results I've had is when I used a clamp to apply pressure directly across the joint but I had to do it at every single pocket hole. This turns the process into a long and tedious chore that defeats the main selling point of pocket holes which is quick and easy.

I'm in the process of building the wood whisperer's outfeed assembly table with torsion box. I've got the torsion box finished and am screwing together the base for it. I'm trying with the utmost care to keep everything in alignment for long term stability. All the casework has been cut out to a very high degree of accuracy and I felt sure that the brad nails would hold things in alignment while I drove in pocket screws. I was wrong.

This is more of a rant than anything. I've exhausted all the swear words I know. I have searched the internet on this topic quite a few times and haven't yet found a solution.

Any tips would be appreciated.


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## Scap (Aug 7, 2018)

This is why I abandoned pocket hole joinery a few years ago. It was maddening to say the least


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## tyvekboy (Feb 24, 2010)

The only thing I could suggest is to check the end of the board.

If the end of the board that the screw is going into is not cut square, when it is attached with the screw it will not be at right angles to the board that it is being screw to. If that's the case …. you're screwed.

It could be that your table saw blade is not perfectly set to 90 degrees to the table.

Hope this helps.


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## RobSC (Jul 9, 2014)

It's not that the resulting angle is not 90 degrees. It's that the two boards shift out of alignment while attaching them at 90 degrees to each other.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

Definitely easier to just shoot a brad through the side into it, no shifting. I sometimes use pocket holes for face frames etc on cabinets, but for carcasses I gave up trying.


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## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

Predrill several holes and don't drive the screws tight all at once. Alternate tightening to balance the stresses. Clamp the bejabbers out of it when drilling.

Alternately use biscuits and glue.

If all else fails hit it with a *big* hammer ..


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## tyvekboy (Feb 24, 2010)

If possible, have you tried clamping them together as if you were going to glue them up then driving the screws in?


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

Clamp it… the screw, even iat an angle, won't shift the wood. I've never had an issue with it and it's my preferred method of joinery when possible.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

I've had that problem when I apply glue before screws. If that is the case try starting the screws, back out, add glue, then drive the screws all the way. Can also be cheap screws or insufficient clamping. Kreg makes a pocket hole clamp, I don't have one, but it seems to work well for Steve Ramsay.


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## CWWoodworking (Nov 28, 2017)

Don't use impact. Slow speed of drill. Use fine thread screws. Put pressure on work piece, less pressure on screw.

Pockets are not a perfect system. Nothing is. I would mix in biscuits with them. Or move to dado/staple/dowel/domino.

Edit-for just an out feed table, staple/glue/screw would be my preferred method. If engineered correctly, it's plenty strong and fast.


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

Take a piece of sheet stock that' maybe 2×2 in size, and glue 3/4" cleats to one corner….they need to be at 90˚ to form a fence. Then clamp your 2 frame pieces against them and fasten with the pocket screws.


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## Tony1212 (Aug 26, 2013)

I've found a 1/4" deep rabbet seems to keep things where they belong. Just a quick pass over a dado stack or router bit. I've even set up a palm router to easily route the sides of cabinets.

Clamping never seems to work for me. It seems the force of the screws is stronger than the force of the clamps and the boards still slide a bit. And clamping is very tough in the middle of two cabinet sides.


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

I'm not a pocket hole fan, but I do use them.

Yes, you have to clamp across the joint at every pocket hole. I usually just clamp straight across with a good sturdy clamp - no quick clamps!

I use a 12V standard cordless drill and set the clutch according to what material I'm using. In MDF I think its a good idea to seat the screw by hand. I've found that using an impact its very easy to over tighten.


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## RobSC (Jul 9, 2014)

I had been using a 12v Dewalt impact driver in the past and didn't think I was over tightening. I was so wrong. I went to a drill and set the clutch and my results were much better. I still had misalignments but nowhere near as bad. I clamped at every pocket hole location.

Rule 1 in pocket hole joinery is to never under any circumstance use an impact driver even if you think you are careful. Don't do it.

I'm still getting to the point where I think pocket holes might be more trouble than they are worth. Glue and brads is a lot easier and quicker.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> I had been using a 12v Dewalt impact driver in the past and didn t think I was over tightening. I was so wrong. I went to a drill and set the clutch and my results were much better. I still had misalignments but nowhere near as bad. I clamped at every pocket hole location.
> 
> Rule 1 in pocket hole joinery is to never under any circumstance use an impact driver even if you think you are careful. Don t do it.
> 
> ...


My Milwaukee 18 volt fuel impact driver has 3 or 4 clutch setting. I put it on the lowest setting and it does just fine.


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## Jared_S (Jul 6, 2018)

Get a castle machine (or equivalent) that cuts a low angle pocket. It doesn't stop creep completely but its night and day better then the kreg


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> Get a castle machine (or equivalent) that cuts a low angle pocket. It doesn t stop creep completely but its night and day better then the kreg
> 
> - Jared_S


 https://castleusa.com/categories.php


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## CWWoodworking (Nov 28, 2017)

> Get a castle machine (or equivalent) that cuts a low angle pocket. It doesn t stop creep completely but its night and day better then the kreg
> 
> - Jared_S


I know I should get a castle. I have experienced the lower angle, it's real. I am on my 3rd Forman. I just can't handle the router noise. So I just refined my technique and deal with it.

The real problem with impacts is the sloppy chucks. You can wiggle the bit 1/4" in an impact.

I use zrip screws from Hafele in a few applications. The heads are not great. I can't hardly use the impact, with a drill they go right in.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

Sure, buy a $1200 machine to compensate for your lack of ability to clamp a simple joint square and even. Great advice.

My first attempt years ago slipped out of place. From that, I figured out where it went wrong and I've never had a problem since.

If you are uncertain of your ability to keep the joint in line, use biscuits. With them, all you need is a clamping square and you're golden.


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## Axis39 (Jul 3, 2019)

If you clamp it and it moves when you drive in a screw, your clamp isn't tight enough. But, it can be a delicate balance, you don't want to crush the little 'ledge' either.

You can also glue it up, clamp it together and wait a minute. The glue will grab it and help hold it in place a little better.

When popping cabinets together, pocket hole screws are my favorite method. It's quick, reduces the need for big, long clamps and keeps things nice and square. I've put a go-zillion pocket holes screws in and not struggled with alignment or movement much in years.

As for spacing? Every six inches seems a bit excessive. On typical base cabinets, I will put a set near the edges of the boards, and one in the middle, so six holes. I'll use the Kreg clamps to hold the two near the edge, and if I really need it, a pipe or bar clamp to hold the middle in place. If I have a curve in the plywood, I may throw an extra hole or two in, but I rarely need that.


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## Jared_S (Jul 6, 2018)

> Sure, buy a $1200 machine to compensate for your lack of ability to clamp a simple joint square and even. Great advice.
> 
> My first attempt years ago slipped out of place. From that, I figured out where it went wrong and I ve never had a problem since.
> 
> ...


Well I only paid $400 for mine (used) but yes.. spend $1200 because its a far better machie and works faster as well.. though I'd suggest the semi automatic tsm 21 or 22 at $3500 if someone is looking.

As for clamping..
Its easy to pull a clamped to death joint out of flush with a castle or a kreg hole if someone uses glue and a impact driver..


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## therealSteveN (Oct 29, 2016)

Kreg makes/made? A clamping table that does the 2 things you need to happen.

1) Hold the edges of the assembly square, and blocked in, so it cannot move away.

2) Deliver clamping pressure right on top of the join, so it cannot move up.

Problems with them is they are kinda big, so unless you do a lot of pocket hole joinery, you have to figure out where, and how to use them the rest of the time.

The answer to that is build it into a a bench, or work table so it hides in plain sight.

Using their multi track, which occasionally is sold at not so bad prices, and roll your own. The Kreg version is 21 3/4" x 33 3/4" so it's big enough to do larger projects. If you need that, you need it, but most could do well with a smaller size, and arrange the pieces so you are using just the meat and taters in a smaller field.

Plus the Kreg version is outrageously high priced.




























For the same clamps they also offer a clamping plate, that you inset into a bench top, and screw/glue it down. That way all you need to provide is a stopping jig. Something to stop the rail from moving, as you connect the stile, so to speak.



















At the lowest price possible, and just as effective is using the overhang of your bench top, use one of these to apply the down pressure. It helps to have a straight piece of wood clamped down, or a jig with a stop bar into dog holes to stop the entire join from moving, and just use a Kreg clamp over the join to keep it from moving.










Now I never agree with Rich, but here he is correct there are entirely too many ways to hold a Kreg join from moving, that you shouldn't get sassed by 2 sticks of wood.


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## RobSC (Jul 9, 2014)

I'm not having an issue when the boards are in the same plane as in a face frame like the above pictures. When one board is up on edge and you are screwing it down onto the face of another board is where I have issue. Even with clamps those tend to creep, especially when joining large panels and where the middle pocket holes cant be clamped across.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

Joining boards at right angles is a bit vague. Just boards? flat, upright? Maybe plywood like in a cabinet box?


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## RobSC (Jul 9, 2014)

Putting together large panels like in this picture


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Putting together large panels like in this picture
> 
> - RobSC


If you're having a hard time clamping it, use dowels or biscuits. You only need maybe three or four over even a large span. They will ensure the boards stay in alignment when you put in the screws, while the screws will pull the joint together and minimize the amount of clamping you need to do.

I like biscuits since their placement can be done to a pencil mark, and they allow a bit of back and forth adjustment if needed to align the boards. All you're trying to do is lock in the vertical placement since that's the direction the screws tend to move it.

Regarding drivers, I don't like to use impact drivers for pocket screws. Like others have said, it's easy to overdrive the screws using them. I have a Bosch 12V kit and the drill/driver portion is locked. I can feel it snug up and then I finish it with a hand held driver. It also has clutch settings for finer screws if you need it.


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## therealSteveN (Oct 29, 2016)

> Putting together large panels like in this picture
> 
> - RobSC


There again I don't think your problem is actually the Kreg portion of the work, it's making sure one of the two panels you are trying to hold absolutely still isn't moving as they are want to do. There are all manner of clamps for that too.

You can fashion home made ones from plywood corners that you then clamp onto the work pieces, but I find them mind numbingly slow to get going. Rockler has some cheap plastic caps that fit over the tops of either 1/2" or 3/4" ply and hold the tops. I find with the tops secure, I can guide the bottoms.

This shows several of their solutions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=j4vRVTH46b8&feature=emb_logo

Woodpeck has some outrageously expensive ones, that I feel are fussier to put on, but damn they are a strong hold.






The Cadillac in my estimation is this Fas Cap wonder, both lightening quick, and strong hold. Kiss Klamp. throw a pair of these at any corner, and it stays, leaving you to use your hands elsewhere.

https://www.rokhardware.com/fastcap-kliss-clamp.html



















Those with a bit of imagination you can roll your own.


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## northwoodsman (Feb 22, 2008)

Clamp a block/scrap of wood behind it so it can't move. I'm guessing it's crawling away from the side that your putting the screws in.


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## maverik (Dec 30, 2015)

> Clamp a block/scrap of wood behind it so it can t move. I m guessing it s crawling away from the side that your putting the screws in.
> 
> - northwoodsman


+1 thats what I do, cut a piece of ply about 6" wide same length as your panel, clamp it with the appropriate off set, slide the vertical panel up to it and drive the screws,


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## northwoodsman (Feb 22, 2008)

Perhaps you are driving the screw in too far. I put the screws in 95% of the way with a drill then snug them up by hand. I'll be honest, i seldom use the Kreg because of alignment issues, accuracy, and joints that break apart relatively easily, not because of the screws but because of the wood I use. If I'm using the Kreg I'm not building anything fancy with expensive wood.


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