# What's a good cnc router



## Kukkula

Hi guys I'm looking to buy a cnc router and was wondering if anybody has any ideas on a good brand and not to expensive. And I would like to be able to cut about a 4' by 4' sheet or smaller. Any ideas?


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## Underdog

High production? Carving? Cabinets? Signs?

What are you planning to do with it?

If you want high production or rock solid reliability, then go with something like CAMaster or Onsrud.

If you just need it for weekends or light production, then ShopBot would be good, but I know folks who do production work with one.


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## Loren

A couple interesting options for lighter applications:

https://handibot.com/

https://www.buildyourcnc.com/blackfoot48v40.aspx


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## joebob1611

That Handibot is interesting, but it has an incredibly small work area for the price. I've been drooling over the BuildYourCnc machines for a while, and think they are the best bang for the buck in a hobbyist machine. Really want the BlackToe 2×4 for my shop. I build a lot of R/C airplanes and all of the sheet stock is a max of 4' ong and 1' wide so the work area would be perfect for it. Wish I had the room for the BlackFoot 4×8 setup but that would be hard to shoehorn into the shop/garage. They also have a new machine that you place the sheet stock in vertically. Not sure how you would go about clamping things though…


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## PaulDoug

Rockler sells one, I don't know anything about it.


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## DS

Expensive is relative. A bigger machine (more initial expense) could produce individual components for far less cost than a smaller, less expensive, but less capable machine.

Decide your application first, then find the optimal machine for that application.


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## SugarbeatCo

I heard the cnc shark that rockler sells is actually made by shopbot with a rockler rail table? Anyone have any insight? The only bad thing I have heard is that the table is a little flimsy..


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## KarenW

The Shark has some drawbacks - I have the Pro Plus model - but so far we've been pleased with it. Any problems (not including some table fussing) have been operator error. 
I think it really depends on what you want to do with it. If I were doing heavy production work or needed .001" precision, I wouldn't go with the Shark but it does make about half my income right now and I have it running 4-5 days a week.

As I said - it has some drawbacks (read: weaknesses) but as with anything, you learn the work-arounds. Count on making a modification right off the bat-the front and back table braces need replacing and beefing up. Price IS a consideration for most people and we can't all drop $10k or more on a tool, no matter how many bells and whistles or rave reviews. My top end budget was $5000. Period. No leeway. We were able to get the Shark plus put in a new dust collection system and build a lumber storage room onto the shop for that money.


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## Ger21

>>>I've been drooling over the BuildYourCnc machines for a while, and think they are the best bang for the buck in a hobbyist machine.<<<

I think they offer the least bang for you buck. 
CNC Router Parts sells kits that are many times stronger and more rigid, and capable of making heavier cuts, at 4-5x faster speeds. All Steel and aluminum, much superior rack and pinion drive system. For pretty close to the same prices.


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## JAAune

A Machine Tool Camp 4×8 machine can be built for less than $10,000 with software and computer included. The only thing is that I don't recommend the machine as designed in the plans. We've got a heavily modified version that is much stronger.

I've been able to process cabinet parts from a sheet of plywood in 15 minutes which isn't bad for a home-made machine. It'll go faster once I get better bits and get better at getting the settings right. If on a low budget, don't underestimate the ability of the home made units.

Given a larger budget, I'd look at the Camaster Stinger.


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## Ger21

Machine Tool Camp…
I thought they stopped selling plans years ago. If you go to their website, there are no links to get to the plans, but Google can get you there. Looks like a completely different machine than their old plans, but they don't give you much info until you give them the money.


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## brtech

+1 for the CNC Router Parts machines. Very nice.

I have the Fineline Automation FLA 200 (2' x 4') but if I was starting over, I'd go with CNC Router Parts.


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## JAAune

I bought a plan from MTC around April 2013 so if they're gone, it's happened since then. The X-Axis drive axle has a weak setup. They put one bearing on either end which permits the axle to flex a lot in the middle and that leads to whiplash as the gantry reverses at high acceleration. We added a third bearing in the middle. The Y-axis doesn't quite travel 48" so that needed a little tweaking. The Z-axis on our machine is completely different and I can't even remember what the original looked like.

The instructions are also a bit vague. I bought the plans but the machine was built in a classroom setting with the help of the instructor so I stored the plans and never referenced them. The rest of the class built from kits supplied by CNC Router Parts but they all opted for the ball bearings and not lineal guides. Our machine was the best one for that reason alone.

If going with the plans from Router Parts, I'd heavily suggest forking over the extra cash for the lineal guide rails and bearings upgrade. I've seen how much work goes into adjusting the ball bearing version. It's not easy and they aren't as strong.


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## brtech

Dunno, my FLA-200 uses the original CNC Routerparts ball bearings on cold rolled plate and they were not hard to adjust.


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## joebob1611

Well, I may be getting my machine a little sooner than I thought. I found a guy that has a partially assembled BuildYourCNC Blue Chick that is willing to sell me everything but the wooden structure (he glued it together and it is too big to ship) for a killer price. It is the older model with the timing belt, but hopefully that will work well enough to allow me to use it to cut parts for a roller chain version later on. I also got a set of plans from Sidewinder CNC and plan on modifying those to build my own hybrid between the two.


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## Hytech2k

I have to say, I built my machine from joescnc. Ended up settling on a 5×9 foot table evo machine. Nice thing about the joes machine is its easy to scale up at a later date. Ive been using it in my business for the last year and have cut no less then 500 different signs and projects with it. It runs about 6 days a week. I have only had to replace brushes and bearings in the router a couple times. IMHO buy the best electronics and drive systems you can afford, they will pay off in reliability in the long run. I considered the wood framed cnc but was worried about losing tolerances due to wood movement and the tension of the drive chain/belts over time. Just my two cents.

Gerald


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## oldnovice

*SugarbeatCo*, the Shark CNC is NOT made by Shopbot" is is manufactured by Next Wave Automation.


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## joebob1611

I understand what you are saying about the wooden structure, and agree that it may not be the best option for longevity. However, I want to use the machine to get my feet wet and gain experience with the technology, and for what I'm going to do with it (cutting balsa and thin ply) I believe it will be rigid enough to handle the load. And once I get use to how things work I plan on building a new one.

Just can't wait to get started!


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## joebob1611

Well, things didn't work out so it's going to be a while before I get a machine. After doing a lot more reading on CNCZone, I decided a wooden machine wasn't really the best option. And a metal one is going to cost a little more than I can afford right now. I learned my lesson a while back about buying cheap, and don't want to make that mistake here.


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## oldnovice

*Joe Andrews*, do you mean constructed out of wood or metal as opposed to be able to cut wood and metal?
The reason I ask is that most of the CNC's on the market today can also machine metal, typically limited to softer metals.
A home built one, solidly built, can also machine metal with some obvious limitations.


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## Hytech2k

You might want to check this site out:

http://www.openbuilds.com/builds/openbuilds-ox-cnc-machine.341/

All metal machine, small format and simple to build but very affordable. Good entry level machine in my opinion. Should cut balsa and light ply easily..

In fact im gearing up to build a 4×4 version and possibly a 3×3.


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## joebob1611

I was talking about construction, not cutting capability. But I may be overthinking what I actually need. When getting advice from forums, a lot of time you don't know what the person offering the advice does with their machine. For me, I plan to use it to cut RC airplane parts and 99% of my cutting will be in balsa up to 1/2" thick, 1/8" lite ply and up to 1/2" birch ply. Possibly in the future I might like to get into V-bit carving. Maybe a wood machine would hold up fine to those tasks? The bits I would use will need to be pretty small, either 1/16" or 3/32" because the inside corners in wing spar slots need to be as sharp as possible.


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## joebob1611

I took a look at the OX open build machine and it looks really interesting and simple. With some beefing up I think one could build it relatively cheap. Thinking about possibly a chain drive and larger extrusions for starters. The rollers look interesting. Hadn't seen that style of bearing before.


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## Hytech2k

The ox appears to be a good machine, I'm not too fond of the belt system and direct drive though, I'll probably redesign the plates and go with a rack and pinion system and drives from cncrouterparts. My large machine runs them with nema 34 steppers and they work perfectly, plus they're reduction drives for better stepper resolution. I'll use the nema 23 models for this ox build. Chain just isnt as accurate as a rack and pinion system or even the belt drive. I built a few rc planes in my time and if your going to be using small bits such as 1/16th and 3/32, you'll want a machine with very little backlash in the drives. I use 1/16 downcut end mills all the time, they're not forgiving. I originally designed my cnc to cut out wing ribs for ultra lights using aircraft ply but now I'm creating signs and such.

Btw to get a wing spar to fit tightly in the rib on a cnc just use a 1/16 bit and create dogbone or tbone fillets, youll have a nice strong joint..


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## oldnovice

*Joe Andrews*, after reading what you are planning to use the CNC for, in my opinion you would have no problem with a desktop unit made out of wood or metal. However, you did not specify the overall cutting envelope, the length, width, and height you need to cut these parts as that, for the most part, determines what size CNC you will need.

If you are going use bits that small you might want to consider using a Dremel or the motor/collect system from Sherline or similar because routers are typically 1/4" and/or 1/2" unless you use adapters. A spindle with collects in those sizes will add considerable cost the the CNC.

Or, if your working envelope is available, how about a Sherline CNC capable mill?


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## Hytech2k

Depends also upon the materials being cut. I couldn't much see a dremel powering through some 3/8 or 1/2 ply. You can get a nice compact router or trim router for about 100. I use a Porter Cable 7518 3 1/4 hp router on my large cnc because a spindle was out of my price range at the time. I paid another 100 for precision collets in quarter and eighth inch. In hind sight I could have used a 2 hp and just bought an eighth inch collect to save some $. Better to be over powered in my experience then not have enough.


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## oldnovice

*Joe*, 1/2" birch ply … *Hytech2k* is correct a Dremel will take you forever, better use a router?


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## Ger21

> Well, things didn t work out so it s going to be a while before I get a machine. After doing a lot more reading on CNCZone, I decided a wooden machine wasn't really the best option.


It's not so much what the machine is made of that's important, provided it's a quality design. It's possible to build a wooden machine that's every bit as good as an aluminum extrusion machine, but it's not easy, and rather time consuming.

For balsa and light ply, you can get good results with a lighter duty machine. The OX would probably work fine, but be aware that you'll need to make several light passes when cutting thicker plywood.

Personally, I'd stay away from chain drive, and direct belt drive.
The main reason that these drive systems are used on CNC machines, is because they are cheap, and easy. Doing things the cheap and easy way on a cnc machine is never the best way. You definitely get what you pay for. 
I'd recommend multi start acme leadscrews and delrin anti-backlash nuts. It might cost $150 more than a belt or chain drive, but it will be more accurate, and provide more power. But it'll work every time you turn it on, and never need adjustment like belt or chain. Screw drive will also make for a more rigid machine than those cheaper methods.

As for a dremel, the answer is no. Too much runout, and not enough power.

Go with a Dewalt 611, and 1/8" collets from www.precisebits.com. You can gert very high quality carbide 1/8" shank router bits on Ebay for $2-$5 each.


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## Gshepherd

Good or Bad, but I just today pulled the trigger on a 6×12 with the lathe attachment and all the goodies and decided on a CAMaster Cobra. I found the sales dept to be quite helpfull in what I needed and did not really need for my application. Reviews seemed to be quite good. The support they offered before and after the sale is important to me as well as being built in the USA.

Honestly I started with 4×8 and ended up getting a 6×12. The wait will be a killer though.


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## fge

Congrats on the cnc. I will look forward to reading about your experiences in the upcoming future. I think the cnc u chose is going to be a great addition to the shop. We also added a 5 by 12 cnc and so far we love it.


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## oldnovice

*Gshepherd*, that is some tool you got!

I understand the waiting as I couldn't wait till mine shipped so I could track it across the country. The thing that bugged me though was that the freight carrier claimed they could not deliver it as it was too big and it two attempts before they got it off the truck in one piece on my driveway!


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## joebob1611

*Oldnovice*,

Sorry I forgot ot mention the size of the machine I would need. All of the materials used in RC kits are no more than 12"x48"" in size, so I figure a 2×4 machine would be plenty for anythign I would do. I know I wouldn't be able to cut 1/2" ply in one pass, and that size would only be a small percentage of the parts, so multiple passes is no big deal.

I don't even consider a Dremel for something like this because mine bogs down on the slightest load and the runout with a cutting bit is horrible. The trim router might be an option, although I was figuring on a PC 892 or something similar.

*Hytech2k*,
Thanks for the info. One reason I was looking into the chain drive was so I could use one motor instead of a dual drive. Just run shafts out each side of the machine with a drive sprocket on each. No need to worry about racking and other hassles related to dual drives. Plus, the parts are cheaper. I understand why now!

As for extrusions, I see where 8020 sells a few differnt styles, regular, light, and ultra lite. I assume for a machine, you would want more weight to reduce vibrations, but more weight requires more force to move, so which would be better?


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## Ger21

Weight is your friend. The additional force required to move more weight is negligible.


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## oldnovice

*Hytech2k*, you can get a lot of 80/20 extrusions on eBay if you can live with the sizes available as you may need to cut some to meet your needs.

Personally I use a lot of Tslots extrusions and have them cut to the length I need and they can also machine the ends for the joint connectors at a reasonable cost. I first learned about Tslots when I was still working as they were the preferred supplier for the company.

However, the majority of the extrusions and hardware is interchangeable with several suppliers. But watch out for some of the off shore "look alikes"! I picked up some scrap extrusion locally and it was not the same size as the inch or metric versions from the suppliers I am familiar with nor did these extrusions accept the same hardware.

The Rexroth division of Bosch also makes interchangeable extrutions as they are into material handling system and factory floor automation/assembly equipment and systems. I saw the Rexroth systems at my previous employer as part of an automated assembly system.

I have collected discards from companies in my area and keep them around for all kinds of temporary shop "furniture" like extra large finishing tables, roll away shelves for parts of a project etc.! I built a "tent" for my CNC to keep California (desert dust) all over it with these extrusions and some polyethelene sheeting!

I don't know which of the companies uses this phrase *"the industrial erector set"* but I totally agree!


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## joebob1611

Rethought things and I think for my purposes, a wood machine may not be such a bad idea. I can use it to learn how to do stuff, and later on build a better one if necessary. Been playing around with materials trying to see where I can get the best deals on stuff and have the price down to around $1600. One place I decided not to skimp on was the controller. Too many horror stories about the Chinese stuff, so I will opt for a CNCRouterParts 4 axis controller kit with a Gecko 540 driver and low inductance 320oz motors. This setup will serve me well if/when I replace the machine with a metal frame.

Now if I could only sell this RC plane so I can get the cash to start ordering stuff!


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## Hytech2k

*Oldnovice*, yes I bought all my 8020 from the manufacturer, ebay just has cut offs. I needed specific lengths for the machine I built and it was easier to have them cut it to length. Good customer support there I must say…

*Joe* for the machine I built it was all standard 8020 with the exception of the gantry extrusion, thats was heavy walled. Ger21 is right, weight on a cnc is your friend. With reduction drives it's not much of a problem moving the gantry or x carriage. I use large nema 34 frame steppers on mine just for that fact my gantry weighs in at over 259lbs. My drives are a 3-1 reduction drive, make for very good resolution on a large machine, plus the steppers don't work nearly as hard. Just make sure you heatsink that 540 gecko, I've read alot of good things and also alot of bad on that driver, just do alot of reseach when wiring all up.


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## joebob1611

Thanks, Hytech2K. That's funny, the 540 is the only driver I found that I didn't see anyone complaining about. Guess I wasn't reading the right forums!

The good thing about the CNCRP kit is that it comes with motor cables already made up so all you have to do is plug them into the Gecko. Only connections that require wiring up is from the power supply to the controller.


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## Hytech2k

Most of the folks who seemed to have troubles were the ones who were making their own setups and wiring. I use gecko controllers also (203v) and have no troubles at all. Good products. Ahren over at cncrouterparts always took care of me and stands behind his products.


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## oldnovice

*Hytech2k*, regardless of which brand you use, those extrusions are fun to use. I built a semi automated vision inspection system (when I was still working 5 years ago) using the extrusion linear bearings to slide the product under inspection in the the camera field of view and those worked fine for this application.

*Are you going to post some progress photos?*


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## joebob1611

I've been doing a lot of reading lately and have changed my direction slightly. The Joe's CNC Hybrid 4×4 machine now has my undivided attention. Very easy to customize, great quality, and doesn't break the bank too much. I purchased the plans a couple of weeks ago and have been going over them and the forums on his site and pretty much decided to build a roughly 4'x3' machine using the rack and pinion drive on X and Y. Once you factor in the parts count and added difficulty of getting the lead screws aligned, it is actually a little cheaper to go with R&P, and the speed increase is dramatic. Fast isn't necessarily desirable when cutting, but it speeds up the process when the router is moving to the next cut location.

I looked through a lot of the user galleries on Joe's forum and see so many things that would be a blast to make. Can't wait to get started on the build. Bt alas, it will probably be a while. Not having much luck selling my RC plane to fund it…


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