# Pricing survey....... What would happen if we all bid on the same project?



## huff (May 28, 2009)

This past week has really brought forward two very interesting topics…......Div posted a forum topic, "Monkeys working for peanuts", and a1Jim posted his topic, How much is your woodworking worth!.
Both topics generated a lot of interest and responses. Everyone from the hobbiest, to the woodworker doing it as a secondary income and the full time woodworker. 
So….It gave me an idea, I would like to do a pricing survey! Bear with me for a minute and let me explain. Cabinetmaker magizine ( a national trade publication), does this every year and invites professional shops from across the country to participate to bid on a similar project to be able to compare pricing across the country. I have participated for the past four years and I find it very benificial. At first I was a little intimadated, being a one man shop and I knew I would be bidding with large production shops, but that doesn't matter and I found out that didn't have a lot to do with the final prices. It's fun!
Here's how it would work; I would like to make available 5 different projects that we all could submit a bid on. Each project would have a picture of the finished project with all the dimensions and specs for that particular projects. Detailed drawings will be supplied where needed. I thought I would have a box of some sort, a cutting board of some sort, possiblly an entertainment center, and a couple other cabinets. I will try to keep projects basic enough that everyone will be able to bid on. If you are interested, then you will be able to PM me and I will send you a package with all 5 projects, pictures, specs and so forth. I will also include a short story telling you how this sale came about, which might influence on how you might price it. You can bid on any one that you feel comfortable with. ( or all 5 ). 
After the cut off date, I will complile all the results and list them on a future forum. I will be asking for build time/ hourly rate, finish time/ hourly rate and material cost. = total price for building that project. (or your formula for determining your price).
I won't use anyone's name, but thought I could just asign a number to your bid and you will be the only one that will know your number ( except me)............Trust me, your secret is safe with me.
I would also like to list maybe the state and if you are a hobbiest, part time woodworker or a full time woodworker. 
All these projects have already been built and sold and on the final results I will share with everyone what each was sold for. 
Anyone up for the challenge?


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## Ger21 (Oct 29, 2009)

Sure


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## thefishingschool (Feb 20, 2010)

so do we make or bid?


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## patron (Apr 2, 2009)

$20


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## tburritt (Dec 17, 2009)

Count me in. It will be interesting to see the results from different areas.


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## tyskkvinna (Mar 23, 2010)

great idea! I will participate.


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## Roz (Jan 13, 2008)

This sounds like a great learning tool. I want to follow along and see how it all works out.


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## fge (Sep 8, 2008)

Yes, this does sound very interested. I will look forward to it.


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## spud72 (Oct 31, 2008)

In Canadian or US funds?


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## huff (May 28, 2009)

I'm glad to see the response so far. I'm selecting the projects now and working on a quote sheet for each one. I'll send them out by this weekend. I would like to send out a packet to everyone that has responded so far if that's OK. You don't have to fill it out if you don't want too, but thought it would help you follow along when we do the bids. You will have a better understanding what and how they bid on each project. Just drop me a line if you don't want a packet. I don't want to offend anyone or push anything on someone, but I don't want to leave you out either. No gimmicks, no strings attached and no hidden agenda. I will not be using anyones name in the survey. I will assign a number to each one and not use names. I would like to state from which state the bid came from and if you are a hobbyist, part time or full time woodworker.

Spud72, either way, but would probably be easier for everyone to follow if it was all one currency.


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## FatherHooligan (Mar 27, 2008)

Interesting. I'd like to take a crack at this also…although I think I will probably use a lot of the advice from this site to do an actual quotes as I am the quintessential hobbiest and have no idea what my work should be charged out at… I mean who'd pay for the stuff my wife has to put up with LOL!


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## SgtSnafu (Jun 11, 2009)

I am in - I would also be very interested to see the states (or country) the bidders are in also to be able to see the results in a regional format as well… Thanks Huff for the great idea…


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## nailbanger2 (Oct 17, 2009)

Count me in, a great learning experience.


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## albachippie (Feb 2, 2010)

I'd be interested. Not sure if you'd be looking for international bids though?! I wouldn't include shipping! It would be very interesting for me to see how prices compare between US and UK. Would the packs be emailed,
(?) because the shipping price for drawings etc would obviously be prohibitive otherwise.


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## TheWoodsman (Jun 21, 2010)

I'd participate. I've read the Cabinetmaker surveys for several years and am astonished by how low the low bids are and by how high the high bids are. Guess I'm a 'tweener.


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## Maveric777 (Dec 23, 2009)

I have "ZERO" experience with this sort of things. I would be interested in checking it out….. Sounds like an excellent learning opportunity.


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## chewbuddy13 (May 28, 2009)

It sounds interesting, I was thinking of starting to sell some of my stuff, I would like to see how I stand with others.


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## AuroraWoodworks (Nov 6, 2009)

Count me in!


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## huff (May 28, 2009)

albachippie, I would love to see bids from everywhere. I too think it would be interesting to see how prices compare between US and the UK and all countries. I'm not looking for any delivery charges or installation charges for any of the quotes since no one would have seen the job site or in your case, on heck of a delivery charge! LOL. Just hoping we can all learn from how we would quote a project for a customer.

TheWoodsman, I've participated in the Cabinetmaker surveys for the past four years and I'm like you, shocked on the difference from the lowest bid to the highest on the same project…...and to think these are all full time professional shops. I'm the only shop in SC that participates so if you have any of the past issues of the surveys,you'll see I'm usually right in the middle of the group. It's a lot of fun and I've learned alot from those surveys.

I'll be sending out ( by e-mail) the packages this week-end. I'll have a cover letter and a sample quote included to help explain.


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## BOB67CAM (Dec 28, 2009)

im an unemployed loser, so as long as nothing too huge comes up i have the time..lol


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## albachippie (Feb 2, 2010)

Cool, well, count me in! I'll PM my email to you,

Garry


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## reggiek (Jun 12, 2009)

Huff, I would also recommend you make a fixed bid format so that the numbers you receive can be compared. Unless you just want to compare totals….but for more interest you can set up something like the AAIA bid forms .. (of course not as detailed as in a real bid)....but if you set up the line items for materials, consumeables, labor cut out, labor build….etc….you will get a good comparison…otherwise it will be hard to compare some of the apples with some of the oranges you get.

My company has participated in some of these type activities…it really helps the industry and it helps estimators to see some of the things that are considered and some that are not.

Great idea and should be of tremendous interest to alot of folks here.


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## bluchz (Mar 1, 2009)

Hmm i might go $19 just to beat out David! lol I wouldn't mind a shot at it.


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## woodnut (Apr 22, 2007)

Huff count me in also. Send me a pack-it.


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## Broglea (Dec 9, 2009)

Sure why not. Count me in.


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## oldworld124 (Mar 2, 2008)

I'm interested. Please send me a packet. Thanks


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## Jaybird719 (Jun 25, 2010)

Sounds like fun. I'd give it a shot.


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## tooldad (Mar 24, 2008)

I'd like to participate. send info to [email protected]


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## BTKS (Nov 30, 2008)

Sounds like fun and educational. Pricing is probably my weak suit when it comes to business. BTKS


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## woodsmith1 (Apr 23, 2010)

I'm in as well.

I'm a bit new to the site. What's do you mean "PM me"


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## blockhead (May 5, 2009)

*woodsmith1*- PM is a private message. Go to Huff's home page and click on "send a message".


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## huff (May 28, 2009)

Woodsmith1, Sorry about the confusion, you can either send me a privte message, but it's not necessary. Everyone that said they would like to particapate here on the forum, I will send the info to. I'm going over everything right now and will be sending the info out sometime this week-end.


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## capnbobbo (Jun 15, 2010)

I'm a part-timer and new to LJ but sounds cool. Please include me

Bobby In NE AR


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## Sailor (Jun 17, 2009)

huff, count me in. I'm a hobby woodworker so it may be a little difficult to get my pricing accurate, but I guess that will make it more interesting for the public.


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## ldubia (Dec 26, 2009)

PM sent. 
I am in on this. Let the price war begin! Bwahahaha. (cough cough).

I think this will be interesting to find out how we all price our work. I'd like to find out where I fit into the scheme of things. Sometimes I think I am too high, other times too low.

Larry


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## huff (May 28, 2009)

Sailor, Don't worry about getting your pricing accurate, I don't think any of us ever gets that right. I know a lot of the woodworkers have already stated that they may only price quote one or two of the projects since they only do this as a hobby and don't know how to price some of the jobs. Don't worry, we've all been there! When I first started my business, a customer would ask me if I could build it?..........and I'd say sure! and then I would have to figure out how to give them a price. It's a learning experience and I'm still learning because I'm still building things I've never built before. That's the great thing about this survey. It won't matter if your bid is way off (and who's to say if it is way off) The other bid may be the one that's way off. It's just for fun and gives you a chance to look over a totally strange project and see if you can come up with a price for it.


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## huff (May 28, 2009)

I think I might have run into my first snag! I will have to have a different e-mail address other then the one you have here on LJ's. Your e-mail here on LJ's won't let me attach files so there is no way to send you the info packet without a regular e-mail address. My files are too large to Copy and Paste to your message.

I have a few LJ's that have sent me an e-mail address that I can use, so I will get those out and I will send each one a PM that has responded here on the forum. Sorry, didn't think about that untill it was time to start sending out the info.


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## miles125 (Jun 8, 2007)

The problem i see with this kind of experiment will lie in how apples rarely get compared against apples in the woodworking business. In the real world, detailed specifications pertaining to expected grade of the woodwork are often cut and pasted by architects who have little knowledge of what they even mean or represent. On top of that you'll have woodworkers who know only one standard of woodwork and completely gloss over any expected standard layed out in specifications. I wish i had a dollar for every job i lost to someone who completely ignored strict specifications and came out none the worse because of contractors and architects who simply aren't knowledgable about the differing grades of woodwork.


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## BOB67CAM (Dec 28, 2009)

[email protected]


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

Sounds like fun and educational!

How large would this Email be that you'd be sending out? How many MB's? (roughly)

I will send PM.


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## woodspark (May 8, 2010)

John, would love to take part, not sure how to compare/convert my local currency ZAR to US$. Maybe I'll do it in $ just for the exercise.

[email protected]


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## huff (May 28, 2009)

Miles125, I know what you mean by working with detailed specifications and truly comparing apples to apples, but in this case I simply picked 5 pretty basic projects with no Architectural standards expected. I'm trying to include the hobbyiest, the part time woodworker and the full time woodworker (if he's interested) I feel most of the woodworkers here are simply trying to figure out the basics of pricing their work. I've kept the survey pretty simple and we will all have to take the information with a grain of salt. I think it will be fun and yes, we will see a wide spectrum of pricing, but I see that everyday from the so called "professionals".


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## baller (Nov 14, 2008)

if hobbyists trying to make it on the side are allowed to participate i'd be interested as well…please send info, thanks john


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## korys (Jun 21, 2010)

I would love to see these results of this. I would ask that you might want to put some items that you would put on your wall as art. Just doing this a hobby it I can't believe what people will pay for something to hang in their house. I know the time I put into a project, but everyone says I price too low because I just don't think poeple will pay that much for a one of kind piece.


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## wseand (Jan 27, 2010)

Count me in John. I'm game.


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## huff (May 28, 2009)

I want to thank everyone that has requested a survey packet so far. It's been a busy week-end. I hope I sent a packet to everyone that's wanted one. I'm still waiting for a few addresses so I can send out the remaining ones that is on my list. If you requested a packet and didn't receive one, please let me know.
Cut-off for the survey is July 15th, so you still have plenty of time to request one and join in on the fun. I'm looking forward to receiving some of the results and I'll start compiling the information. 
Thanks again for the great response so far.


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## _Steve (Feb 11, 2010)

I would be interested in seeing the results!


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## zwwizard (Mar 30, 2008)

I would like to try your guessing game (Projects)
[email protected]


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## dfletcher (Jan 14, 2010)

Ok, I would like to try this as well.


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## KayBee (Jul 6, 2009)

Me too!


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## rusticandy (Sep 26, 2008)

I'm in!


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## GregP (Jul 10, 2010)

Still time to get in on this?

[email protected]


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

Golly, I've got to get on the stick!

Time sure goes by!


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## huff (May 28, 2009)

Hey everyone, The pricing survey is coming to a close. The cut-off date is the 15th (tomorrow). I've sent out a lot of survey packets and still waiting for a majority of them to come back. I would like everyone that's participating to have the surveys in by Monday, July 19th. I sure hope everyone will take the time and fill out the survey so we can get a good showing of the different pricing on the different projects. Once I get the surveys back, I will compile the information on a spread sheet and will post it on a new forum topic. Thanks for the great response so far. This has been fun on my part.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

Oh John,

Time went by SO FAST! I meant to try it… Maybe I can still try it over the w/e…

Thank you for the extension.

Do we Fillout the PDF pages (somehow) or just answer on a separate Post?
If we are to Fillout the PDFs, I'm not sure how to do it…

I guess one could just fillout what they could get done… with something being better than nothing?

Thank you…


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## Al_PG (Jan 29, 2009)

Hey John, can you post a note on this forum that you've posted the results as I have this one on my watch list but might miss the new post if I don't get back on here in a couple of days. Thanks, Al


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## huff (May 28, 2009)

Joe, You can send me the infomation anyway that works best for you. You can just send me a personal message with the info if you would like. You can fill out for just one project or all 5. Thanks.

Alan, No problem. That's a good idea.


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## huff (May 28, 2009)

Hey everyone. Just wanted to let you know that I'm beginning to compile the information from the survey and will be posting it in the next couple days. I will notifiy everyone here with a direct link to the survey. Hope everyone will follow along.


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## blockhead (May 5, 2009)

Thanks John, looking forward to it!


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## huff (May 28, 2009)

I would like to start by thanking everyone that has participated in this survey, for taking the time to complete their quotes and return them to me. I hope the following information will help others when it comes to pricing their work, but remember there is a lot more to it then just the final price we came up with for our quotes. I hope everyone will take the time to really study the survey, not only from the pricing aspect, but also look at the material cost, build times, finishing times, hourly rates and any special comments.

*I'm posting the results for everyone to be able to view, study and take any information that might be helpful…………but not really looking for comments (especially negative ones). That's not what this was about. I know no names are attached other then mine, but each number is a Person and whether you may agree or disagree with their bid, for whatever reason, I don't feel negative comments will add anything worth while to this forum. Thanks for respecting your fellow LJ'ers.*

I sent out 50 survey packets and only 8 actually filled them out and returned them. No one bid on all five project, so I'm second guessing maybe I didn't pick very good projects to bid on. I realize this was something new to everyone and even though I tried to pick projects I thought most woodworkers (hobbyist or full-time) might be able to bid on, I feel I might have picked projects that most felt they weren't qualified to bid on. 
As a professional woodworker, I have to bid on projects all the time that I've never built before, but forgot the hobbyist or part-time woodworker is probably a little more intimidated by having to do this. Sorry I didn't get more results for everyone. Maybe we can try this again sometime with a better choice of projects.

Click Here for the Results: http://www.thehuffordfurnituregroup.com/LumberJocksPricingSurvey.htm

..............And the biggest thanks goes to my better half. Tracy sent out all the survey packets, did all the spread sheets and posted everything on our web-site so we could see the results. Without her help I would have been lost.


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## wseand (Jan 27, 2010)

Well make sure you thank Tracy for me. I really like the idea of this. Maybe, do it again in winter when there is less fun and sun. I thought it was a very diverse set of projects. I would definitely do it again, thanks for all your work you put into it as well. I will look at the results in a few.


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## blockhead (May 5, 2009)

Yes, big thanks to Tracy too!


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

Huff, thank you for putting the time & effort into doing this…

It's one thing to envision how a project should be made and the various steps involved and estimate times, etc.

It's quite another thing to actually build the project… discovering how all of the mistakes, etc. were made during Estimating process.

The true Learning Process would be to Estimate it, Build it, and compare the Estimate to the Actual, thereby learning what was done wrong… but, in this exercise, it would have been virtually impossible to do that. You did the best thing you could do, it was fun, and you did good!

I really don't keep track of my time… There is no need for me to do it… I don't work against the clock to get things done as quickly as possible; time being money… I don't attempt to guess the time a project will take.. I just putz around until it gets done… If I, at least, kept a Log of what I did, etc. I guess it would help me estimating projects if I was ever in a position where it was mandatory that I do it. I have kept so many records, books, etc. throughout my life, I do NOT even want to do that simple task.  

Thanks again for a fun and learning experience.


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## spclPatrolGroup (Jun 23, 2010)

I won't be bidding on anything soon since I haven't ever charged for anything nor have had anyone pay me more than materials. But I would be interested in hearing the results even without names, just out of curiosity. Maybe if you listed resulte by region it would be a fair comparison.


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## FatherHooligan (Mar 27, 2008)

Thank you John and Tracy for setting this in motion and all the leg work.

I regret I did not complete the packet you sent me but I guess that is indicative of the way I wood work, I don't really have a process to work through planning, estimating work hours, costing materials. Like Joe, above, I just kinda putz along until the thing gets built (much to Jenn's annoyance I suspect 

As I said in my PM to you I way underestimated the time it would take to do even one project quote and way over estimated the time I'd have to work on a quote. Thank you for this as even the little set up I did really pointed out for me the reality of trying to do the business aspect of being a professional wood worker and still do the woodworking. No pro need ever worry about competition from me LOL ;-) !


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## dfletcher (Jan 14, 2010)

I so bad wanted to do this. I was eyeballing 2 of the projects and then began working 12 hour days until 2 days ago. I am behind on all of my paying estimates, so, unfortunately, this one had to go on the back burner.

I would definitely love to do this, but maybe not in the summer.


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## Al_PG (Jan 29, 2009)

Thank you John and Tracy. It was a great idea and interesting information. It is people like you, who put in the time and effort that make lumberjocks such a good site to keep coming back to.


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## blockhead (May 5, 2009)

I was surprised to see how close all of the bids were compared to the ones at Cabinetmaker Magazine. It was quite revealing and definitely helps me in future pricing. Thanks again *John* and *Tracy* for all of your work on this!


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## WWilson (Jan 5, 2010)

A big thank you to John & Tracy from me too. This exercise was great and very informative. I really appreciate you kicking it out there. We all learn a lot from this kind of sharing. That's why I love this place! Until next time…

-Will


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## HokieMojo (Mar 11, 2008)

I barely even make it to the hobbiest category, but I really appreciate you sharing the results with everyone, not just the participants. It reminds me what custom work should cost.


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## rustfever (May 3, 2009)

I'm in


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## huff (May 28, 2009)

Brad, That's one of the first things I noticed also. I thought it was quite unique that a combination of Hobbyst and full time woodworkers that where bidding on things they never built before could have bids closer than the professional shops that build kitchens or home entertainments centers everyday for a living could in the Cabinet Maker magizine survey.


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## BTKS (Nov 30, 2008)

Huff,
My apologies for not completing the survey. I too was sidetracked. Printed it out, picked two projects to bid and poof, it fell to the side.
Thank you and Tracy for all the effort and time you put into this very helpful project. I may still work up those two projects just to see how my numbers go against the results.
Thanks Huff and Tracy!!!!
BTKS


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## rtb (Mar 26, 2008)

Yes please !


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