# I don't want to cause trouble but need to ask?



## SCOTSMAN (Aug 1, 2008)

Why does it appear that the majority of jocks here are white where are all the black woodworkers?They would be made very welcome I am sure but this site as well as others seem to be predominently white.I really have wondered about this for a while.Alistair


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Good question, Alistair. I'm sure there is no simple answer though. I guess the first thing that comes to mind is that woodworking is just not as popular a hobby within that group. Same reason you don't see a lot of black hockey players, I suppose.

You could also argue the socio-economic angle. Woodworking is pretty much a middle-class hobby, and the black middle class has traditionally been a fairly small group (although growing).

Another angle you could look at is to say that maybe there are a lot of black woodworkers out there who just don't happen to be into home computing. Hence, they never hit the radar in woodworking websites.


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## ellen35 (Jan 1, 2009)

Or…those avatars are deceiving. Not everyone wants their "mug" on the site. I think many use the stock avatar…we don't know for sure. I guess I never thought about what color people are…I am impressed that we have people from so many countries and cultures on this site. Thanks for making us all think a bit Alistar.
Ellen


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## Newton (Jun 29, 2008)

I can add some insight regaring the profession of Architectural Millworking. Working in the field for 35 years, I can count the number of "cabinetmakers" I've worked with that were African-American on one hand. We have even had EEOC people question us about it and our reply is always that we have none apply that we can hire. Why is that? I wish I knew.


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## matt1970 (Mar 28, 2007)

I dont think asking questions is ever a bad thing…especially when mature people address them. It's an interesting question based on deep sociological roots. I think we could change the "group" in the question from African American to any other "group" within our society and the question still works.

I don't know what the answer is however with a continued decrease in vocational education I fear that the diversity that does exist will only get worse. If industrial arts are not considered important and valued in our society then the only wood workers will be those that learn from their families--and if the pool of woodworkers is already lacking in diversity (if accepting the basis of the question) then the future generations of woodworkers will stay the same.

Again…this does not answer your question…but maybe brings up another question: What are we as woodworkers--a growing site (with which may bring some power) going to do about increasing Industrial Arts in our schools and to future generations?


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## ajosephg (Aug 25, 2008)

My theory (FWIW) is that woodworking as we know it had its origins in Europe vs other continents. And, it is passed from generation to generation (as from to father to son/daughter).

Therefore, as time goes on we should see more people of color in woodworking and on this site.


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## Kindlingmaker (Sep 29, 2008)

Scotsman, I hadn't noticed the skin tones of the posters but I have noticed some really nice wood grain they posted.


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## tenontim (Feb 24, 2008)

Alistair, I would tend to agree with Charlie, but AT Williams http://lumberjocks.com/ATWilliams is one of the jocks, is black and he's a very talented and creative craftsman. Hopefully, in time, there will be people of all ethnic backgrounds getting interested in woodworking, and posting their work. Usually folks with different backgrounds have a creativity in designing, that most of us don't think of.


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## SCOTSMAN (Aug 1, 2008)

I live in Dunoon Argyll here on the holy loch.We had a large American military naval submarine base here for over thirty years nigh forty . Anyway Then I owned a hotel and quite a few apartments at that time which I rented out to service men both black white etc etc .I made friends with a lot of Black people and found them to be very wonderful people who commanded quite a few high ranking ( in some cases) posts on the ship.I went to their church and was fascinated by their enthusiasm in and during the service.I sorely miss many of those wonderful young men and women both black and white ,who are probably retired by now .I wish I could meet them again,as I love the American people having visited the states many many times for vacation purposes.Please accept I mean no harm by this post from the heart.Alistair


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## wmodavis (Aug 28, 2007)

And where are the women and children and Iranians and chinese and eskimos.


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## Ottis (Apr 17, 2009)

I am not sure how many are members on LumberJocks…..but you would be surprised at how many we do have. I never really thought of it before…but there are several. As some one else said….not everyone adds their pictures to their avatars.


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## SCOTSMAN (Aug 1, 2008)

A very Good question ,where indeed? Alistair


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## JonJ (Nov 20, 2007)

Again…this does not answer your question…but maybe brings up another question: What are we as woodworkers--a growing site (with which may bring some power) going to do about increasing Industrial Arts in our schools and to future generations?

Not to hijack the thread, but I too have been wondering about this. I visit with my high school shop teacher now and then (from twenty something years ago) and he tells me after he retires next year, the woodshop will probably get the axe. He says there is not enough of a demand for woodworkers, as well as the liability issues. He had a student to lose a finger in a jointer a few years ago, and I think the school is still dealing with it. I wonder about forming a "Jr Jocks" program? I know I try to get my kids in the shop whenever practical and safe. The range in age from 2 to 10- and are happy as pigs in slop when you give them wood scraps and glue!


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## MichaelBClark (Apr 19, 2009)

I think it is more due to ignorance. It is a big internet out there. It never occurred to me until about a year ago to look for woodworking communities. And didn't find this page until a few months ago. Even pages with plans and tips don't mention Lumberjocks.

ajosephg,

There are wood workers all over the world.

There were these absolutely amazing guys in Equatorial guinea that would run into the woods in the morning and come out with a tree worth of boards that were just as flat and straight as you could want.

I've also seen some very scary stuff, with very beautiful stuff. Mostly carvings, but It is impressive to see what a motivated African can do.

One guy built a bicycle based generator. He did welding and ran some smaller power tools off of it. His buddy would pedal like a madman to get the voltage and current up.


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## Elaine (Jun 24, 2008)

Living in what once was billed as the "furniture capital of the world" before High Point won the furniture mart…I can attest to the fact that there are numerous individuals of color who know how to work with wood and work it well. Perhaps LJs is just one of those communities where it really doesn't matter size, shape, color, orientation, gender unless it is in the plantae classification. I also recall some wonderful furniture and carvings coming out of Africa as well as some famous woodworkers in these United States History - look up Jefferson. I believe there is a man who is a traditional woodworker recreating pieces from Thomas Day in the eastern part of NC.


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## SCOTSMAN (Aug 1, 2008)

I should say I ask the question not so much about this website although partly I would like a specific answer I know I will be happier with opinions.I ask for myself as one who is really ignorant about the demographics and politics generally re this question.Culturaly and spiritually I cannot understand what is going on.I can say quite definitely there despite owning hundreds of books and woodworking magazines very few black contributers to any of these books and magazines or indeed on other websiitesI frequent in engineering the same question arises. I feel sure there must be millions of woodworkers ,engineers, metal workers, artists, etc ,etc ,etc ,who are black but why aren't they more prolific on websites books and magazines etc etc etc etc ? I ask as said because I don't understand this genuinely and not to cause mischief.Alistair


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## Catspaw (Dec 15, 2007)

[To be read with the intention of not disrespecting anybodies opinion, thought process, philosophy, whatever….just making a statement from my own philosophy.]

I always find these discussions an interesting study in human nature. This entire discussion smacks of segregation. People of color, african-americans, etc. = some group that is different from some other group = a form of segregation which is what I would consider a benign form of racism. Again, I'm not accusing anybody of bad things….just making a point about how people think.

I think when "people" promote woodworking to other "people" [ this should be read as …not people of color, russians, disabled, or whatever….just….people], and those people who want to participate do so, then, everything is copasetic.

Personally, I think differences in people are what make life interesting. If everyone was just like me….well, I'm enough company for myself. If people of color, in general, do not usually like woodworking…great…as I'm sure there are things "their" culture DOES enjoy that I wouldn't. If I and everyone that is just like me doesn't like it, it wouldn't happen. But, it does because the other group does….for whatever religious, evolutionary, or cultural reason. And that means the world is alittle better.

I'm an american, born and raised. When a person introduces themselves as an african-american (even though they also are born and raised american and have never been to africa), I feel they are segregating themselves from me. I don't go around saying "Hi, I'm a Polish, Scots-Irish, American…" I'm good with my heritage…but, bottom line is…never been elsewhere, never lived elsewhere…I'm an american. I don't where a kilt…been known to have more than a few drinks…(yea….o.k. an irish slurr) and my mother never saw fit to teach me polish so I could never talk to my grandparents.

Anyway, I think it's all interesting.


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## kiwi1969 (Dec 22, 2008)

Maybe it,s just a matter of Demographics. Can,t be that many scotsman woodworking in Latvia but that doesn,t mean they aren,t there, they,re just a minority. Liveing in asia makes me the minority. If I join a filipino DIY site that makes me the only white guy on there. Doesn,t mean there are no other white guys here woodworking, just we are in the minority. I,m guessing that people who have woodworking as a hobby is only a fraction of the white population and therefore a smaller community will have less people who are woodworkers. Don,t think this is a race issue, it,s simply a numbers issue.


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## cabinetmaster (Aug 28, 2008)

I'd like to join Napaman in what he said about the schools. What can we do to get the shop classes back in the schools? Whose gong to build our future homes and cabineets if we don't get the schools to accept the shop classes again? A very good topic for discussion.


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## kolwdwrkr (Jul 27, 2008)

Teach the kids how to opperate CNC machines, do CAD drawings, etc. Forget about teaching them to be skilled laborers.


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## Durnik150 (Apr 22, 2009)

I'm white??? Dang it!! You're right.

As many others have said, socio-economic factors play in for sure. Internet access ties in there as well. There are a lot of urban kids who have and are growing up without the benefit of internet access.

My wife is a teacher and has taught in several different areas of her district. She was amazed at how many kids who live in Colorado (regardless of race) have never been to the mountains or been on a camping trip. A different topic altogether but could be applied to this topic.

A very interesting discussion.


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

I'm not touching that subject with a ten foot pole! But Napaman you make a great point. It's not just woodworking either…machinists, tool and die makers are also turning into dying arts. Metal fabrication is gaining some popularity thanks to all the shows like American Chopper, and Jesse James. Schools are phasing out shop, just like music…it might be saving money but I think kids today will be deprived of great learning experiences, and possibly a spark to a great career. When I went to school I could choose from all kinds of cool stuff…wood shop, metal shop, photography, graphic arts, auto shop. We welded, cast aluminum in sand molds, we ran printing presses, took cars apart. Even if you don't choose those as careers there still are valuable life lessons in the experiences. It's too bad kids will have to miss out on that. They have "vocational" high schools but it's tough to get in..they are so popular there are waiting lists and qualifications. The popularity of these schools should tell the school boards that phasing out vocational arts is not a good thing.


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## FEDSAWDAVE (Jan 1, 2009)

I will tell you that with 24 years of calling on a large customer base in Florida, I can count on 2 fingers the customers I had who were African-American shop owners. They were both cabinet shop owners.

However, in recent years, we have garnered many granite top shop owners but most are from the Carribean…Jamaican, Bahamian etc.

Quite frankly, I never got in a discussion as to why they chose their profession and why others do not but I always wondered why.


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## davidroberts (Nov 8, 2008)

I didn't read all of the post but my guess is that black guys have a lot better things to do than to sit around typing out replies and responses to a bunch of old white guys.


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## FEDSAWDAVE (Jan 1, 2009)

LOL great response David but I must take exception to the "Old white guy" part. I am NOT one of them….yet.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Fedsaw, If you did anything for 24 yrs, you're awfull close it you ain't there yet ;-))

Over the years I have noticed them in most trades except as carpenters. Worked with several as electricians. Never really thougth about it until now. I don't remember seeing any at the WW Show in Seattle this spring. Seattle has a fairly large minority community.


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## Catspaw (Dec 15, 2007)

I did hear on NPR something about the schools losing their trade classes. There was supposed to be some support for their return.

Also our local IVY tech opened a couple years back full and had to immediately start planning their expansion. Other than that, I think diddling a blackberry isn't very productive if you ask me. Right now, I have a very low opinion of where the younger generation is headed. But then, I'll be dead by the time they realize someone, somewhere has to actually do something productive for them to survive.


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## SCOTSMAN (Aug 1, 2008)

But surely altering the educational system would affect both black and white children and does not explain whay there are so few black people enterring these professions and coming onto sites like this?Alistair


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## miles125 (Jun 8, 2007)

I'd say the answer can be found in the assinine idea foisted on society by post modern intellectuals called "diversity". Which comes from the root word "divide".


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## Sawdust2 (Mar 18, 2007)

I know about 300 woodworkers and 3 are black.
I guess I know about 300 black folk. Still only 3 are woodworkers.

Economic status is not a factor with these folks. Neither is education, high school grad to degreed engineer.

Maybe they are the only ones that can put up with woodworkers.

My $.03

Lee


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## SCOTSMAN (Aug 1, 2008)

This is a really interresting topic I don't know what the answer is myself but would like to hear from anybody who is black who can maybe shed some light on the subject.I don't understand the African American thing either your either African or American as I see it no disrespect to your ancestory or anyone individual. It just doesn't make sense other than perhaps simple pride in your ancestory.I am Scottish end of story I don't let that be influenced by where my ancestors came from I am still proud to be Scottish not British Scottish first and last.lthough Scots make up a part of Britain technically and correctly if asked I always say Scottish and so do most Scot's .Alistair


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

Industrial arts classes in schools have been replaced by Industrial technology especially by teachers that are younger. They no longer teach how to do woodworking. Rather they might teach how to make a wood product from start to finish in a more assembly line technique. There is also lots of electronics and computer stuff going on in those classes that are related to industry.

I'd think that fine woodworking is like that of renaissance painting. Before the camera, painters guilds were vast with lots of members. A family portrait had a painting as an only option. Today painting is a personal hobby for most. Fine woodworking I fear is following the same path. Industrail wins out.


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## SCOTSMAN (Aug 1, 2008)

Yes Daniel but most of these answers affecdt both black and whitre children in education and young men and women both black and white. It doesn't say whey so few are on woodworking and machining and metalworking sites like this which are predominently rather overwhelmingly white. Why is That???Alistair


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

I see scotsman. I'm from Maine which has about .01% blacks. So, I can't really speak to that much. So, in my ignorance I could speculate, economics, city vs rural, woodworking not popular culturally but it would just be speculation.

On the other hand. Do we have many Latino LJ's? I mean they are a large and growing population now too. Oh, our Latino population in Maine makes the the black population look large. Here in Maine we are a bunch of pasty whites with little yearly sunlight. When someone takes a picture of us using a flash, it often looks like our heads are lightbulbs as we reflect the flash.


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## SCOTSMAN (Aug 1, 2008)

I only used the term black because presumably they represent the largest minority group in the USA so of course I am referring to all minority groups maybe I should have made that clear, and as far as maine is concerned reminds me very much of parts of Scotland I have landed in Bangor Maine many times but never left the airport facility.We have a similar problem here in scotland many black comunities in London but few hardly any black people here in scotland other than a largeish Asian indian pakistani poulation in Glasgow Scotland so I would make welcome these people with open arms and don't at the same time understand maybe any of the effects negative or positive that might be part of the groups I earnestly welcome.Its nothing more or less than total ignorance I confess other than a few dozen lovely people I made contact with when the HUNLEY ship was here,I have no real knowledge of these problems which I ask about.regards Alistair


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## patron (Apr 2, 2009)

i read a book about slavery in the americas years ago .
it seems that every where else the slaves were really " indentured servants " , and could work off their passage
in 5 years and then chose their lives .
in places like brazil ,many blacks became the craft workforce as the white plantation owners just ran their 
plantations .
so the blacks were accepted into the society as valuable assets , and were free to marry and have their own bussineses .
america was the last country to reapeal slavery , and that only after the civil war , and then how long to martin luther king ?
there is still much racist thinking here , and unless you are a gifted athelet or musician ,you are still stigmatized
by this archaic way of thinking .
the blacks in america are strugling to get an education at all , and a way to support them selfs and their families .
i am sure that being a carpenter would be a good place to them , if they had the opportunity to learn about it .
here they mostly get to tar roofs and be laborers , as the skilled jobs are reserved for whites ,
very arian , really sick .
i think their aproach is , " why bother " they stop us from everything else , why should we try and impres ****************************** ?

the irony is that the bigots now want the blacks to go back to africa . and it was their grandfathers that brought them here in the first place !
by force !


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## SCOTSMAN (Aug 1, 2008)

Indentured servants Now thats a long way from the slavery I studied the slaves were treated abominally by both their own tribal cheifs who in many cases sold them off to the slavery traders but they were treated certainly in the time slavery was very much the accepted thing like animals or worse!!!!! Anyway we have black people as doctors ,surgeons, lawyers ,judges ,busines and banking leaders high ranking political leaders etc etc etc .It therefore seems as if those cases must be a distant refelection of a small minoritory of the black Americans today in USA if their fate is to tar roofs etc I am getting very mixed signals ,or we are in the UkI confess things are not much better here for Black people in the UK. near the end of slavery during the time of wilberforce etc the black people were still being treated really like cattle as a comodity no more or less as I have understood it,perhaps you can inform me to the contary .Alistair


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## Miket (Jan 27, 2008)

Patron - Where is your brain? Back in the 1800's?

One word - Obama.


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## Kindlingmaker (Sep 29, 2008)

A man that walks upright into the storm is a man. One that waits for someone else to carry him may not be. There are many injustices in the world but each person has to deal with them and walk the road ahead of them. I do not care who is a woodworker it is that they are one or one who is trying to learn. I know little of the craft but I am trying to learn. My wife and I do without what others take for granted so we can build up our shop and learn to work the wood. This is what we choose to do and we work towards it. If anyone, does not matter who, wants to know what I have learned I will help in anyway I can to pass what knowledge I have to them. As you see by my avitar I am standing in a forest, I am learning, the trees are as all the LumberJocks on this site…


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## mtnwild (Sep 28, 2008)

The ones I know are working craftsmen that keep it at work mostly. Hard workers and high lighters. The others just haven't discovered LJ yet.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

You find the same thing in many facets of life. I've only know two that were interested in shooting sports and hunting. Considering the number of PCs in the world with net access, the few active LJ's, 500 or less isn't very many.


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## SCOTSMAN (Aug 1, 2008)

topmax this is statistically the same on virtually all the websites I frequent or have frequented not just here it seems to be the same no black people .what is wrong?Alistair


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## Miket (Jan 27, 2008)

Why are not many blacks on this site? Well I'm no social scientist but this may have something to do with it.

Mostly it's cultural. Here in the US they (the majority anyway) tend to feel more comfortable with other blacks. Most of them all live in the same areas of a city.

Only in the south (Alabama, Mississippi…) do they tend to be more rural. But even the cities there have large black neighborhoods.

I have noticed this in other cities around the world. Brixton, England, and Amsterdam, (don't know what they call that part of the city) Holland for example.

Other obviously non-white races tend to do the same. Chinese, Korean, Japanese, Mexican… (Chinatown, Little Tokyo…) Before they assimilated into the US society different white nationalities did the same. "Little Italy" in New York for example. It's a matter of comfort.

At this point the internet, the English speaking part anyway, "appears" to be mainly white to your eyes, but that *may* only be because the blacks gravitate towards sites which are centered around an area that they are most interested in. I bet they will ask the same question "why aren't there many whites here".

To each his own, right?

Now I may be wrong or even not completely right, but I believe I'm on the right track.

This is just my opinion though.


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## SCOTSMAN (Aug 1, 2008)

It must be something like that maybe they don't take up woodworking cabinet making or woodturning carving etc etc etc etc etc what do they do we are not interested in then ?????Alistair


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## Miket (Jan 27, 2008)

I could care less about Rap Music: http://www.sohh.com/

Other than that look here: http://www.myblackinfo.com/african_american_websites.html


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## Catspaw (Dec 15, 2007)

It was my understanding that slaves were basically sold to the Dutch [for shipment elsewhere] by the peoples own chiefs. So, "******************************" didn't start it per se.

I also think there is nothing holding anyone back from anything. If you want to learn it, there are ways. If you want to live somewhere else, there are ways. I don't beleive in this "cultural opression" thing like poor or under-funded education….there is always a library…somewhere, or some one won't hire you…then start your own business, or something!

It all boils down to the fact that if you don't get out of life what you want, then get off your butt and do whatever it takes to get it. People do it all the time…..it just that it takes alittle effort…nobody is going to or has to hand it to you for some long since gone event.

I often think about all the people who packed up their stuff into a wagon, or onto a horse, or just on their backs and walked 1000's of mile to get out into the west for new opportunities. But, then that would bring up the original owners of this land.

I don't feel that there should be more blacks on this site. It just is what it is. There are as many as probably want to be. Again, differences are good, life would be boring without them. Or we could all be wearing Mao jackets to ensure that there are absolutely no differences between us and that everyone is treated exactly the same.

[I think this thread is going quite well…as nothing has gone crazy…just people exploring different thoughts and such. I've seen these things on other forums…and somewhere along the line they always go downhill. But, to the credit of all, it's a rational and insightful discussion.]


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## SCOTSMAN (Aug 1, 2008)

yes my intention is to kep this debate as intellectual as required and it not to go downhill I mainly asked because I am genuinely ignorant of the facts and wanted to know.bedtime have a great day in the USA I am off to visit the sandmanLOLAlistair ps I hate gangster songs and all that rap so sorry if that offends I just hate it.


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## pommy (Apr 17, 2008)

guys we have members from all over the world on here so wether we are black or white who cares we all love wood so thats my two penny worth

Andy


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## Grumpy (Nov 9, 2007)

I'm with you Pommy.


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## Chipncut (Aug 18, 2006)

One of My buddy's on LJs is Lenny.

Why don't we all give him a hardy *Welcome.*


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

I think that Miket is close - regarding the urban centers and that really most non-whites gravitate towards.
Though there are lots of neanderthals and hand tools take little room.
I bet you would find that a vast majority o the lumberjocks own homes with basements/garages - and tend to be either suburban or rural.
The city apartments and condos are wonderfully set up near city centers and artistic venues - but don't lend themselves to a room of powertools. But I wonder if there is the same "lack of diversity" in for example painting and pottery, that require very little space and power.

Further - how can this be changed with shop disappearing from the schools …begs the question how do you get started. I know for me it started in Jr. high and High School shop. Here in Salina, the high school still has the shop so the next generation is getting the same exposure.

There is also a germination period. We get the seed planted in high school, go to college or tradeschool and are out of it, get the job start the family etc. But we still watch Norm and David Marks, and perhaps trading spaces and design on a dime. Start buying hand powertools to do repairs and Rekindly that old flame and start setting up shop.
Where are the minorities in that germination period - was there ever the seed planted? In my high school there were no blacks that took shop…at least not at the same class period as I did.


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## papadan (Mar 6, 2009)

I know of 5 black woodworkers. 2 are local and do not use the enternet at all. The other 3 are from different parts of the US and are members of forums I frequent. None of them use a real picture avatar and tell me they have found it best to stay quiet about being black because some people just object. They have confided in me because they know who I am and I promised to keep their identity to myself. I feel it is terrible that they have been made to feel this way by a very few people that just can't handle sharing anything with them.


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## Cantputjamontoast (Jan 1, 2009)

Do you think any body on the hip hop forums wonder why there are no white people there?

This is a topic that does not have any validity.

It is legal for anybody to work wood. There are people of all races in the trades and you are judged either by your skill or how much you kiss the BA's butt.

Every Cub Scout Bear den has a tool unit we must start there. There are all races in Scouts and we need to help the Girls Scouts too.

And PS I'm not John Bellushi I just like the photo


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