# I was mis-informed about fuming!!



## TheWoodsmith (May 28, 2010)

So I work with white oak quite a bit but had yet to delve into fume finishing for the sheer fact that i didnt want to ruin a good piece by finishing it poorly. Because I was only mildly interested in trying this I did very little research other than finding out that you seal up the work with some ammonia. On my latest commison I decided to give it a go, I did the glue up for the top, and prepped it by scraping and then sealed it in an old refigerator with a dish of ammonia. I looked deeper into the technique and saw alot of people saying that it would not work with household ammonia or anything weaker than 26% but today when I opened up the fridge the board looked almost identical in shade to images of other boards post fume, pre-topcoat I've seen on the web. I expected little or no result after 12 hours with cheap, dollar store, lemon scented ammonia but it worked I'm kinda confused here, did i miss something or are these guys saying that I have to buy my ammonia from chemical supply warehouses and bluprint supply or pool supply stores full of ammonia?


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## richgreer (Dec 25, 2009)

I had always heard that you needed a commercial grade ammonia. I also understand that handling this ammonia can be quite dangerous. You must wear a good quality gas mask.

What you say here is both interesting and encouraging. I could be a lot more excited about fuming if I did not have to handle commercial grade ammonia. I may experiment with this.

Perhaps part of the reason for your success is that you were using an air tight container. Most people whip up some kind of a tent with sheets of plastic that is not truly air tight.

I may experiment with this myself.


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## BillWhite (Jul 23, 2007)

And don't forget…....AMMONIA IS EXPLOSIVE when the mix w/ air is just right.
Bill


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## Gene01 (Jan 5, 2009)

Didn't one of Stickly's plants blow up while fuming? I seem to recall that story when we visited his estate in NJ.


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## huff (May 28, 2009)

I used regular household Ammonia when I fumed the quarter sawn white oak gun cabinet I built this past year. I experminted with some sample boards first to see if it would work. I took three pieces of white oak and put in a box with some ammonia. I took the first piece out after 12 hours and was really surprised how much it had changed. I took the second piece out after 24 hours and it was darker and left the 3rd piece in for 48 hours and it was even darker. 
I wasn't sure how much time difference there would be doing a large piece in a large box versus the small samples, but I had three different shades to compare and thought I could use them to compare the final tone I wanted on the gun cabinet. 
I built a large box and used four containers with ammonia in them to surround the piece. Closed it up and left it 24 hours ( that was the sample I liked the best). When I checked it after 24 hours, it looked lighter then the sample I made, so I closed it back up and left it another 12 hours (36 Hours total). What a great
look!. There isn't a stain out there that can duplicate that look!. And it was so even and uniform. I was very pleased with the final results.
Note: Make sure you take any doors or drawers off the cabinet so the air can circulate totally around everything or you will end up with tan lines!. (where ever one board overlays another). I've never heard of household Ammonia blowing up with a housewife, so felt a little safer using it instead of the very strong commercial stuff, besides, I had no idea where to get that. 
I still used a lot of precautions while using it ( rubber gloves, no exposed skin and I wore a respirator while working with it, since I was working with it full strength and in an enclosed area). 
Good luck with your project and let us know how it turned out. 
I did quite a bit of reading up on it before I did mine and almost all the time they mentioned getting the very strong commercial type ammonia, so I'm not sure if they never tried using the weaker ammonia, or just wanted faster results, but the household ammonia worked for me.
I've done a couple small items since then and they are much easier to work with. (just because it's easier to find something to put them in).


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## Wolffarmer (Jul 14, 2009)

I really do not see how ammonia can be explosive when released into the air by itself. I have been in/around several accidental releases and nobody was running around worrying about an explosive. Ammonia is an oxidizer. Just like the oxygen in the air. Ammonia will choke the living crap out of a person. A shot to your eyes will destroy your eyes if you don't choke to death first. 26% aqueous is not to hard to handle. When you get a whif of the ammonia you will get out of the way real quick. I would not fear it, just have a fan at your back and nobody down wind for about 25-50 feet or so. Don't spill it on you. It just smells like very good house hold ammonia cleaner. very good. Being in agriculture i have been around a lot of anhydrous ammonia and have gotten a good whif a few times ( the accidental releases was another story of storage tanks blowing relief valves or a transfer hose breaking )

That being said. It is real easy to make an explosive with 26% ammonia. I took chemistry in college back in the 60s. ( Randy smiles and lets it go at that )

Randy


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## jtriggs (Dec 13, 2007)

I fumed my Morris chair project and disagreed with the conventional wisdom of using the strong ammonia stuff. I went to my local Fleet & Farm store and bought a gallon of ammonia that was no more tan 15% ammonia and I think it might have only been 10%.

I tested some scrap oak pieces in a plastic garbage bag for different amounts of time and found that after about 5-6 hours my wood was almost black. I ended up fuming my entire chair and the ottoman for no more than 1 hour and 45 minutes and the color finished up beautifully with some polyurethane. The poly warmed up the brown color just enough to give it a beautiful golden hue.

The amazing thing about fuming is that I cut some of the scraps up that I had used for testing and found the fuming had gone into the oak at least an 1/8 of an inch on all sides and on the ends, where the pores were, the fuming went in at least a half an inch and up to 3/4" on stuff that had been in for 3-4 hours. Talk about a deep finish!

I recommend trying it but not worrying about the strong ammonia products. The bottle I bought cost less than $2. Take precautions, fans , goggles, etc., because this stuff will still water your eyes and make you cough.


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## TheWoodsmith (May 28, 2010)

acetylene is explosive by itself…. i dont think ammonia is that unstable or they wouldn't let you by it as a consumer without letting that be known.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

Still chuckling over the 'Tan Lines' comment! I suppose the weaker ammonia stuff available at the supermarket would give you a little more control over the end result. I've only seen it done one time, at a cabinet shop that was doing a bit of resto work on a church sanctuary that burned. The shop pulled some old duffer out of retirement to oversee the work. They just used some makeshift tent canopy of canvas, and the 25% concentration. The panels and parts were a knockout! Ive never done any fuming myself, but I've restored quite a few pieces of fumed golden oak, I could never understand why people would ruin them with paint.


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## BillWhite (Jul 23, 2007)

Ask the folks at the fire department in Shreveport, LA about amonia and explosions. They can tell ya about the commercial cold storage facility that exploded and burned due to an amonia leak. I think there was 1 fatality.
Bill


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## JonathanG (Jan 18, 2010)

I'm glad I decided to read this thread as it gives me encouragement to try something new. I don't have anything right this minute that I want to fume, but may at least try experimenting with some scraps now, using the "over the counter" strength ammonia.

I will still take precautions, but am more curious than ever to see this process in action.

I'm also curious to see what others have to say about using the weaker concentration.


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## MikeGager (Jun 15, 2009)

regular grocery store ammonia will work just fine, it just takes a lot longer


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## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

From Canada's Health & Safety Site

What are the fire and explosion dangers associated with Ammonia gas?

Ammonia is generally not considered a serious fire or explosion hazard because ammonia-air mixtures are difficult to ignite and a relatively high concentration of the gas is required. However, a large and intense energy source may cause ignition and/or an explosion, particularly in a confined space. The flammable/explosion concentration range has been reported in various sources to be 15 to 28%. The explosive range is broadened to 15 to 79% by mixing with other combustible gases, (such as hydrogen and oxygen), by higher temperatures and by pressures greater than atmospheric. The presence of oil or combustible materials increases the fire hazard and the presence of iron lowers the ignition temperature from 850 to 651 deg C. Ammonia decomposes into flammable hydrogen gas at about 450-500 deg C. Toxic and irritating nitrogen dioxide can form during burning in air. Containers or cylinders may rupture violently due to overpressurization, if exposed to fire or excessive heat for a sufficient period of time, releasing flammable and toxic gases. Explosions of air-ammonia mixtures have occurred in confined spaces.

Is Ammonia gas stable when exposed to air, moisture, or heat?

Ammonia is stable at normal temperatures. It decomposes into hydrogen and nitrogen at about 450-500 deg C. Decomposition will occur at lower temperatures in the presence of metals such as iron, nickel and zinc and, to a lesser extent, catalytic surfaces, such as porcelain and pumice. In the presence of catalysts, decomposition begins as low as 300 deg C and is complete at 500-600 deg C.

Are there any conditions to avoid when using Ammonia gas?

High temperatures, electric discharge, electric sparks, welding


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## Timbo (Aug 21, 2008)

I was just talking with a fellow woodworker a few days ago about fuming. He does it quite often using the regular store bought ammonia and it works great just takes a little longer. One tip he had was to put a test stick of wood in the fume tent that is easily removed so you can check the progress. Also recommended using the non scented variety.


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## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

glad it was helpful.


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## tnwood (Dec 13, 2009)

The whole conversation about the explosive character of ammonia is academic. Ammonia (NH3) can be explosive in certain high concentrations in air. The household or commercial ammonia from the store is NH3 dissolved in water and is actually no longer ammonia gas except in a low concentration and is not explosive. The problem with commercial grade ammonia is the high concentration which is corrosive and irritating to the lungs, skin, eyes, nose, etc.

And yes, the low concentration household ammonia will work for fuming if you give it sufficient time. The issue is one of concentration of the gas over the piece in question.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

One more point that needs to be made: There have been dozens of fires recently, very tragically in hog barns across this province. All of them have been attributed to corrosion of the electrical wiring, switches, splices etc from the high concentration of ammonia fumes inside these barns. Do your fuming outside if you can; if you're planning to make this a frequent procedure. I'm just saying..


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## AnsbachArtisans (Mar 29, 2011)

I bought a piece of smoked larch. I noticed a strong ammonia smell while planing it so I searched the Internet for info where I found this thread. It makes me worry about the sawdust and shavings that I'm generating. Did I just turn my shop into an explosive danger zone?


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## Wolffarmer (Jul 14, 2009)

No. It is way to diluted to be more than an irritation.


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## ssnvet (Jan 10, 2012)

I'm probably risking public ire by resurrecting this thread, but my question piggy backs on top of the discussion, so I can't see a reason to start another thread.

I'm gearing up to build a set of speaker cabs using both QSWO and White Oak veneered plywood. Are there any concerns about fuming the plywood? Will it delaminate? Will the fume color match between the solid wood and the thin veneer?

Adding a "ammonia anecdote" ... highly concentrated (99% IIRC) ammonia is used to maintain a basic water chemistry on the primary loop coolant (de-ionized water) in naval nuclear reactors. We had an ELT (engineering lab tech.) drop a small beaker of ammonia in the machinery room bilge, and you've never seen sailors run so fast! Evacuate and seal the compartment, and rig ship for fire and general emergency are the immediate actions…. then you have to go to periscope depth and use the snorkel mast to emergency ventilate the effected compartment.

As you might imagine, doing this in the wrong place at the wrong time could compromise the ship's mission, so the ELTs had to be very cautious to not screw the up the procedure to add ammonia to the primary loop.

Just remember, the first poison gas the Germans used in WWI was highly concentrated ammonia. And it can indeed kill you.

I'll probably stick with the lemony fresh stuff and just wait for the results


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## torus (Apr 8, 2017)

> And don t forget…....AMMONIA IS EXPLOSIVE when the mix w/ air is just right.
> Bill
> 
> - Bill White


"The combustion of ammonia in air is very difficult in the absence of a catalyst" - Wikipedia.


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## LittleShaver (Sep 14, 2016)

Adding a "ammonia anecdote" … highly concentrated (99% IIRC) ammonia is used to maintain a basic water chemistry on the primary loop coolant (de-ionized water) in naval nuclear reactors. We had an ELT (engineering lab tech.) drop a small beaker of ammonia in the machinery room bilge, and you've never seen sailors run so fast! Evacuate and seal the compartment, and rig ship for fire and general emergency are the immediate actions…. then you have to go to periscope depth and use the snorkel mast to emergency ventilate the effected compartment.

As you might imagine, doing this in the wrong place at the wrong time could compromise the ship's mission, so the ELTs had to be very cautious to not screw the up the procedure to add ammonia to the primary loop.

Brought back memories. I was an ELT and remember making those ammonia chemical additions. Speed and certainty were the only ways to get it done and stay breathing. I can't imagine doing it the way we did back then now.


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## splintergroup (Jan 20, 2015)

To Matt's question, plywood will not fume as dark as solid wood. That being said, each individual piece of wood will fume differently depending upon where in the tree the board was cut (sap/heartwood) and of course the tree itself.

I've always used "janitorial strength" (10%) ammonia from the local Ace hardware, about $6/gallon. For the original posters refrigerator fumer, I'd probably use a pint in a small bowl and expect to finish in 8-12 hours. The advantage of making a simple frame from PVC pipe and elbows and securely wrapping it with some clear painters drop cloth plastic is you can watch the progress and remove pieces as they reach the desired color.

I have found it useful to have a selection of cutoffs from various parts and use these for a test fuming. For this I often set the parts on a small table inside a 5-gallon bucket. The ammonia is poured onto the bottom of the bucket and the table keep the parts above and dry. The top is simply covered with a flat piece of MDF I have handy.


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

A couple of years ago, we had a request for a Fumed Oak kitchen. At the time, I really knew nothing about it.
The more I researched, the less and less I wanted to deal with it. (I try to make a habit to avoid things that can kill me)

We found a hardwood lumber supplier that could source Fumed Oak boards. The color is a chemical reaction between the Ammonia and the tannin in the wood and is through and through. Apparently, cutting and sanding did not affect the finish.

I found that to be a reasonable alternative to risking life and limb trying to fume the stuff with no real experience.


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