# Attaching face frames, dado or ?



## SweetTea (Aug 5, 2016)

Hey guys, I want to get some opinions from the cabinet builders here on this forum. The topic is attaching face frames. There are basically two primary methods of doing this, one is to dado the stiles. That is what I have traditionally always done. I use 1/2" UV ply for the sides and put a 1/4" deep dado into the stiles. I have never tried any other way of doing this. I assemble the cabinet after I paint the face frames and do it all at once..

However, I have noticed that some cabinet shops assemble the carcass first, then attach the face frame afterwards by pocket screwing the cabinet sides from the edges into the face frame with only glue and pocket screws and no dado.

Which do you prefer and why?


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Some folks just glue and clamp face frames others just pin nail and fill holes. I assume you mean that you put a groove in your face frames styles and stub tenons on your cabinet's edges all said and done your approach is one of the best in my opinion.


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## BurlyBob (Mar 13, 2012)

I've always used the glue, clamp and brad nailer technique that Jim is talking about. My friend with cabinet shop recommends it. I figure since he's in the business he knows what he's talking about.


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

Stick with what you know.

Which do you prefer and why?

Glue clamps and nail it because it's effective and saves time.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Perhaps another way…









Tongue & Groove. Groove the faceframe, set it on a tongue milled on the edge of the carcass.









Face frame groove..









Carcass tongue.

Or….groove both mating surfaces, and add a spline of plywood?


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## splintergroup (Jan 20, 2015)

Your dado method has a good glue surface and keeps everything square and aligned. Sure it's more work, but it's solid.

Screws are fast and cheap when time is money (staples are even faster), but unless I was trying to make a living at this, I'd go with what I felt was the more refined approach.


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## GR8HUNTER (Jun 13, 2016)

in our cabinet shop for face frame cabinets….... we always put the carcass together first….... then fit face frames on…... then dado them…...... then glue and clamp….... all you need titebond 1 in red label ….. :<))


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## PPK (Mar 8, 2016)

When I worked in a cabinet shop, the only way we ever did it was to glue and clamp the face frame on. No biscuits, dados, etc. We never had a frame come loose. Glue is stronger than wood  That is, if you you use yellow glue (titebond or similar) Hot melt glue does not count. But I would assume you are not using that option!

Once in a great while we'd use pocket screws in BLIND areas if we didn't have enough clamps to hold all the frames on. However, this is not a good option unless its going to be hidden, because pocket screw holes look very poor even on the inside of a cabinet. Plugging them is not time or cost effective, and still looks poor, in my opinion. They add no significant strength to the frame to carcass connection either.

Further, we would always make the face frame 1/16" proud on the side, then use a flush trim but to trim the frame flush with the sides of the carcass. This makes for easier glue-ups and better joints. Unless it is a blind side (one that butts into another cabinet, then leave a 1/4" "ear", and don't trim the frame flush.

Hope that helps.


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## PPK (Mar 8, 2016)

One more thought - Using pins or brads to fasten the frame leaves holes, obviously. And if you're shooting for a really nice looking product, having holes (filled or unfilled) in the face frame just doesn't go well. The nails only serve to hold it tight while the glue dries, (replacing the need for clamps) again, they don't really add significantly to the structural soundness of the joint. I've also found that nails don't exert the same pressure as a good old clamp does, and you still often end up with gaps in the joint. Soo…. Glue and clamps. Easiest, and best!


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

I leave a 1/4" "ear" to scribe to the wall when needed.


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## mramseyISU (Mar 3, 2014)

I like a few pocket screws myself assuming I won't see them on the sides. I've tried the dado method you're talking about and had issues with tolerance stack between the case and the face. I ended up having to make the groove wide on one side so it would go together. Sure seems to me like those are going to end up being weaker at the end of the day because of the monster gap between the tongue and dado on the one side.


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## MT_Stringer (Jul 21, 2009)

I build my face frames using pocket hole joinery. Then attach it to the carcase with glue and…sometimes 18 ga brad nails…sometimes with pin nails. The nails are just mini clamps to hold the pieces together until the glue dries. Your cabinet won't fail at the glue joint. The wood may separate but the glue will hold fast!

Here is some reading for ya.
http://lumberjocks.com/projects/108347


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

I use it on corners..









Rather than screws and plugs..


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

Most of the time I use a method I picked from Norm. Mill a grove in the front of the cabinet box and put biscuits in the back side of the face frame. Depending on my mood/application I'll use pocket screw to hole it what the glue dries. Sometimes I'll use clamps and no pocket screws. I have even did biscuits and pocket screws and no glue (removable frame). I always use the milled grove and biscuits.

BTW the reason I do it this way (biscuits) is for self aliment not strength. Glue alone is strong enough. The pocket are just for clamping the frame to the case until the glue dries.


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## BillWhite (Jul 23, 2007)

I'm in PPK's camp.
Bill


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## TungOil (Jan 16, 2017)

Assuming you mean kitchen cabinets. .I've tried most of the methods above at one time or another. I keep returning to using grooved stiles with rabbeted carcasses. I like the way it helps align the case sides (it seems impossible to get flat ply these days) , offers some extra glue area and is quicker for me to make with a dado stack on the TS than either pocket holes or biscuits. Of course this applies to the tooling I have for each method in my shop.

With the oddball plywood sizes these days it can be tricky to get the grooves in just the right place on the stiles. To address this, I build the frames without grooves. After I build and assemble the carcasses, I measure the box and cut the grooves to fit just before I assemble.

Works for me in my little shop!


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## SweetTea (Aug 5, 2016)

> When I worked in a cabinet shop, the only way we ever did it was to glue and clamp the face frame on. No biscuits, dados, etc. We never had a frame come loose. Glue is stronger than wood  That is, if you you use yellow glue (titebond or similar) Hot melt glue does not count. But I would assume you are not using that option!
> 
> Once in a great while we d use pocket screws in BLIND areas if we didn t have enough clamps to hold all the frames on. However, this is not a good option unless its going to be hidden, because pocket screw holes look very poor even on the inside of a cabinet. Plugging them is not time or cost effective, and still looks poor, in my opinion. They add no significant strength to the frame to carcass connection either.
> 
> ...


Quick question for you Pete. You said that you would normally leaving a 1/16" over hang on the sides and then useing a router with a flush trim bit to trim it flush, would you normally do this on cabinets that have other cabinets to the left and right of it? I have always done my face frames with a dado on the stiles and glued them on, and when I dado the stiles prior to assembling the face frames I always leave a 1/4" lip on the outside edge of the stile, whether the cabinet gets another cabinet to the sides of it or not. Is that not typical?


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## SweetTea (Aug 5, 2016)

> Assuming you mean kitchen cabinets. .I ve tried most of the methods above at one time or another. I keep returning to using grooved stiles with rabbeted carcasses. I like the way it helps align the case sides (it seems impossible to get flat ply these days) , offers some extra glue area and is quicker for me to make with a dado stack on the TS than either pocket holes or biscuits. Of course this applies to the tooling I have for each method in my shop.
> 
> With the oddball plywood sizes these days it can be tricky to get the grooves in just the right place on the stiles. To address this, I build the frames without grooves. After I build and assemble the carcasses, I measure the box and cut the grooves to fit just before I assemble.
> 
> ...


I have had pretty good luck with shimming my dado stack to be the perfect size for 7/16" (1/2") ply. I cut my stiles and rails for the face frames first, then set the fence on my table saw that has dedicated dado stack to leave a 1/4" lip on the sides and mill my groove. Then I drill my pocket holes in the rails.

When I get ready to assemble the cabinet, after the face frames have been painted, shelves cut, and dados made in their appropriate places on the cabinet sides, I lay a blanket down on my work bench so that the face frame doesn't get scratched. Then I start by putting the sides into the dado (with lots of glue) and shooting some 3/4 brad nails at an angle from the back to hold the sides into the dado. Then I glue and use the angled 3/4" brad nail method to install the shelves, then on to the rest of the assembly process. I do not build the carcas first, but rather, all at once. If that makes sense.


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## Gene01 (Jan 5, 2009)

> Most of the time I use a method I picked from Norm. Mill a grove in the front of the cabinet box and put biscuits in the back side of the face frame. Depending on my mood/application I ll use pocket screw to hole it what the glue dries. Sometimes I ll use clamps and no pocket screws. I have even did biscuits and pocket screws and no glue (removable frame). I always use the milled grove and biscuits.
> 
> BTW the reason I do it this way (biscuits) is for self aliment not strength. Glue alone is strong enough. The pocket are just for clamping the frame to the case until the glue dries.
> 
> - AlaskaGuy


Now, that's slick.


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

I'm doing a set of built ins now and I'm trying out building the face frames first. Kinda like it.

I'm going to glue and nail because it being painted, but you can also screw/plug.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> I m doing a set of built ins now and I m trying out building the face frames first. Kinda like it.
> 
> I m going to glue and nail because it being painted, but you can also screw/plug.
> 
> - rwe2156


How about posting some "build along" pictures? Everybody like picture.


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## TungOil (Jan 16, 2017)

> Assuming you mean kitchen cabinets. .I ve tried most of the methods above at one time or another. I keep returning to using grooved stiles with rabbeted carcasses. I like the way it helps align the case sides (it seems impossible to get flat ply these days) , offers some extra glue area and is quicker for me to make with a dado stack on the TS than either pocket holes or biscuits. Of course this applies to the tooling I have for each method in my shop.
> 
> With the oddball plywood sizes these days it can be tricky to get the grooves in just the right place on the stiles. To address this, I build the frames without grooves. After I build and assemble the carcasses, I measure the box and cut the grooves to fit just before I assemble.
> 
> ...


I should have been more clear. My grooves are 3/8" X 3/8" and I size the rabbet on the front of the case to leave a 3/8" tongue to fit. This way I can set up just one dado stack and only have to move the fence for all the cuts. I'm using 3/4" material as well for my cases.

The reason I leave the grooves in the FF to last is to account for any tolerance accumulation in the various parts. By cutting them last, I can account for all the minor differences by adjusting the space between the grooves on the FF.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

I ran across the video of Norm using the grove around the face of cabinet to accept the biscuits. Starts at the 2 min mark.


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## RogerM (Oct 31, 2011)

I use a tongue and groove system from Summerfield Woodworking Tools:

http://sommerfeldtools.com/professional-equipment-and-tools/router-bits-and-sets/router-bit-sets/3-pc-tongue-groove-cabinetmaking-set.

Quick, accurate and very effective.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

Norm's way the grove is on the cabinet and the biscuits create a tongue. I have a dedicated router setup with the grove cutter and have a set of gauge blocks I made for setting the distance in form the edge for the biscuits. Quick and easy and I already had everything I needed. I didn't have go out a buy anything. I'm sure the Summerfield's system work well too. I've watched his videos but I didn't the advantage of me changing the way I've been doing for years.


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## WoodES (Oct 8, 2013)

For a variety of reasons, mostly habit from having poor tools early in my cabinet making days, I dado the face frame 1/4" and use it to align the carcass during assembly. Face frame is held together with pocket screws.

However the last cabinet I just finished, I assembled the carcass first then set the face frame in place. I used a lock miter for the top of the carcass to give a waterfall edge and this was the only way to put the cabinet together.

Cabinet turned out nice, lock miter joint needs more practice. As this was a wall cabinet for my home office, it wasn't a problem. The joint is to high to be seen by most.


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## SweetTea (Aug 5, 2016)

Great discussion here guys!

The reason that I started this thread is because I am exploring different cabinet building methods. Like I said in my previous post, I always dado the carcass sides into the stiles.

Someone mentioned to me the other day that if I were to assemble the carcass first and attach the face frame only after the carcass is assembled, I would have an easier time keeping the entire cabinet more square. I don't know about this.


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## PPK (Mar 8, 2016)

Sweet tea, sorry, just saw your question. No, the flush trim process is only for finished ends of a cabinet. Blind sides get a 1/4" ear as you stated. Sorry, I should have been more clear.


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## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

I just glue and clamp. Most companies do grooves or screws for speed and less clamp usage.


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