# I've been asked, I built, now what do I charge?



## Tennessee (Jul 8, 2011)

The main museum store where I do a lot of business let their manager go and hired a much more aggressive guy who has a great eye. Much as I liked the guy that is now gone, this guy I like much better! I went over to meet him and found out that he is letting a few of the artists go, mostly due to quality, and that may include his cutting board guy.

Never one to bash another craftsman, it was hard for me to say anything when he showed me two cutting boards with wood putty in them, but even to me I would not sell it and certainly not buy it if the chance of putty coming out was there. 
So then he asked me if I wanted to take some of the cutting board business, and could I make a couple of samples?

I told him I could not do end grain boards since I don't own a drum sander and didn't want to bring in an end grain board that may have waves in it, as one of the boards on display did (which they wanted out of there).

So I told him I would make a couple of boards. The pictures above are of the first one, a cutting board that is 12" by 18", with a drip ring in it. It is made of cherry and kingwood, and finished with walnut oil. For the record, I like walnut oil and wish I had tried it earlier! I used Mahoney's.

The second board, which comes out of the clamps this morning and will probably get finished today, is a much thicker 1 1/2" thick chopping block for use on a countertop. It is 14" by 16". I don't plan on putting a drip ring in that, just a nice roundover edge, square bottom, with a couple coats of walnut oil!

So my question, and the reason I didn't post this in projects, is what do I charge?
I know the old adage, charge what they will pay, but I don't know really what a board of this type above is worth, less alone the thicker one that is 14" by 16" by 1 1/2" thick. The store is fairly upscale, and they take 35%.

It is very hard for me to price these, since all the wood for these actually came off my scrap rack, and the time I put into them is simply cutting the boards, edging them for glueup, gluing up into the clamps, planing it when dry, cutting in the ring, (and no, I didn't build a jig, figured out how to do it neatly in about ten minutes time with my router table once I got the bit in). But that's another story.

So what say you board guys? I find this skillset somewhere on another mountain than my guitars, which sometimes take weeks. These I can pump out about as fast as I get scrap wood off my rack, glue things up, etc…

One thing I noticed - my wifey comes down to the shop and takes a really good look at these, being about a four star cook. I think at least one will never make it to the store. She would not let me burn in my logo on the backside since she neatly pointed out that people would flip it over and use the back side for things like veggies, where they don't need the drip ring. Huh, Oh, OK…who knew??

Thanks in advance!


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## WoodNSawdust (Mar 7, 2015)

Even though your wood came off the scrap pile it still costs money. What would the materials cost if you had to buy them? There is your material costs. At some point in the future you will have to actually buy the wood to continue making them.

As for labor, you know (or should know) what your time is worth. If they want 10 cutting boards how much time will it take you to make them? What other activities will you have to give up to make them?

What are they charging for the current cutting boards? Remove the 35% markup and you know what they were paying for the other craftsman to make cutting boards. Now comes the hard part, how much more will they pay for a higher quality cutting board?

Good luck with the pricing for me it is the hardest part of the project.


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## bondogaposis (Dec 18, 2011)

I would not discount the price of the lumber just because it came out of your scrap bin. You paid for that lumber and now that you found a use for it, it is not scrap. I would work out some sort of average price per board foot based on what you pay for the various species in the board. Very easy to compute the board feet in a cutting board. Then add in some labor based on your time. Add a small amount for shop supplies like glue and walnut oil. Shouldn't be too hard to come up w/ a reasonable price.


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## JoeinGa (Nov 26, 2012)

Several ideas come to mind (in no particular order)
1. Good call by your wife on the logo. If you MUST have a logo, figure a way to put it on the edge.

2. Did you see any of the other guy's prices? That might give you a base-line to start, and you might be able to judge "what the traffic will bear" from his prices. Also if he's been selling "less than great" products and charging premium prices, you might be about to get a bit more for nicer products.

3. What about boards that are cut into shapes? You could start with a few simple ones like a barn (easy to cut out and sand the edges). Maybe a pig shape ( a few curves but still not too bad to sand the edges with a ROS). If those meet the new buyers approval, you could do a few with some more intricate edges which will be a bit more time consuming to cut (and are sometimes a real bitch to sand the edges) like the cow below.

Here's just a few ideas of some of the one's I used to give away for Ladies Night when I worked at the big orange box .
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## Knothead62 (Apr 17, 2010)

Very nice work! I'm familiar where you are looking to sell the cutting boards. Good luck. I feel that there will be a good market there for quality work like yours.


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## Tennessee (Jul 8, 2011)

Thanks! I think I will start by asking if his boards are selling, and then see what the pricing was. Go from there. And Joe, great ideas on the shapes - but my wife and I could not figure out what the picture above the motorcycle was. A motorcycle sitting on a block was the best we could come up with.


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## JoeinGa (Nov 26, 2012)

Yes Paul. I originally made 2 versions of the M/C boards. One is the silhouette of a Honda Gold Wing (because I had one for years) and the other was more of a Harley cruiser style. Problem was, the center section of the boards was too narrow to cut much of anything on other than maybe a hot dog My first attempt at making the center section wide enough ended up with one that was almost 2 feet long. LOL

So I tried to come up with a way to have a big enough board to be useful and also still have the silhouette of the M/C show. And that's how I ended up with this version. Big enough to use as a cutting board, and still having the M/C be recognizable.. Here's a few versions I did.
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I also did a Model T board. 
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This Texas board was sent to my niece who lives in Texas. Then all my relatives in TX wanted one  
I tried to do Tennessee but it also had to be way too long to get it wide enough. 
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I had a piece of poplar that had a weird knot in it. I glued up some scraps and the knot became the eye in this strange fish !
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And I did several variations of a house 
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## SawSucker (Nov 10, 2015)

You should of worked out a price before you made any.


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## Puzzleman (May 4, 2010)

Pricing is hard because we don't like rejection.

Calculate the wood cost as if you had to buy it. Calculate your labor hours, then multiply by your hourly rate. Figure in your shop costs. Add it all up and it is your price. If you think it is too high, then either figure out how to product quicker, cheaper wood or don't make them.

It is that simple. You already know all of this information. Don't worry about rejection as it happens to all of us. 
Do make sure that you get every penny that you are worth. If you don't, then it is a hobby and just give them away.


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

*JoeInGa*-> Nice cutting boards, but really?? Is that answering his question?

To the OP's original question:

I don't think you can price something out like this based on hourly shop time plus materials because a) you're using scrap lumber and b) like you said, you can bang them out pretty fast if you build them in batches. For example if material = 0 fine but what it your time worth? Its more complicated than thinking "I'm worth $20/hour so the cutting boards will be $40. You're not building a Philadelphia Highboy, here, right? This is a low skill operation, so keep it in perspective. That being said, its amazing what people will pay for things like this. I've seen boards like this at craft shows sellling-no asking-$75 (I don't think they were selling many)

Are you doing this to make a side buck, then I would just get a number in my head, but ask him first what he will pay. You may be surprised.

If you really get into this then a drum sander would be a legit expenditure. It will save you a lot of time plus you open up the end grain option

Bottom line is he's got to make a profit, (and he may think you don't) so going to be paying you the equivalent of wholesale prices. Hypothetically, if he is going to sell them for, say $60, then may have to get them from you for anywhere from $25-30.


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## Texcaster (Oct 26, 2013)

I don't know your costs. If I were to make commercial cutting boards in number, I would use long lengths and process in long lengths, ( 4-5 boards per lamination ) cutting to size only after final sanding.

For domestic use, end grain is overkill.


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## MT_Stringer (Jul 21, 2009)

Go to a Bed Bath & Beyond and look at the ones they have for sale. You may get your feelings hurt when you see them.

I still built a few for Christmas gifts. Our kids (grown adults) love them. A friend hung hers (flounder) on the wall and exclaimed that it will never have a knife cut on it. 

I did sell a large one similar to yours for $75. It went to a BBQ cook off team to use.









Flounder!









Animals




































And an apple!


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## DocSavage45 (Aug 14, 2010)

Paul,

This is the best information on woodworking as a business.

Check out Hull's blog!

http://lumberjocks.com/huff/blog/36598


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## bigblockyeti (Sep 9, 2013)

Your best reference might be to see if you can find out what the lower quality boards were selling for in the same place and add a little. You certainly don't want to undersell yourself and finding chinese made competition at any store is going to be thinner and of low enough quality to not really even begin to qualify as competition. In my area if I made something like that, especially with those dimensions, I would make sure it resulted in at least $120 in my pocket regardless of what percentage was being taken.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Hey Paul
As you know there are lots of threads on LJs about what to charge and many approaches as to what's right for each person according to the material cost and time involved. The truth of the matter is that no one can tell you what to charge. It takes some experimenting with the marketplace and some production trials to really know what makes sense for you. Perhaps the honest approach is best by telling the manager you have not made these items before and that a trail sale time period might be a good Idea as far as what items are popular and how estimated prices work out for you and them. Another idea is just to place the boards with them on consignment and see what happens. Either way you need to come up with starting prices and tell them they may change up or down after a set time period.


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## WhoMe (Jul 9, 2009)

I have seen everything from $40 basic boards to guys selling larger 2" thick end grain ones that go for $300+ each. So pricing is all over the map. It seemed to be based on woods and how much time it takes to make it. Sorry if this not a huge amount of help but I bought I would leads it on.


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## WhoMe (Jul 9, 2009)

Oh, and I forgot, what kind of glue do people use when making their cutting boards? I'm thinking on making one for the wife but have no clue on glue.
Thanks


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## JAAune (Jan 22, 2012)

Charge normal shop rates and figure out how to build them really fast. Include machine setup time. If these become a standard product you'll want to dedicate machines and fixtures to building them. If the profit isn't there and your current jobs are paying the bills then pass it up and look for opportunities elsewhere.

Don't undercut your own shop rates because if they start selling fast, you'll be obliged to neglect your profitable jobs (like musical instruments) and hog shop time filling cutting board orders for less pay.

If anything, piece work like this should be more profitable than custom jobs. If it isn't, you're working too slow or pricing too low. Setting up a good fabrication process takes a lot more skill than conventional, custom woodworking and if you can do that, you ought to earn a good wage.

Also, charge full price for wood. If demand exceeds your scrap supply, you won't be able to increase your prices by $10 to cover the cost of new wood.


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## Tennessee (Jul 8, 2011)

Wow, so much great information here.
First off, let me start by thanking Mike and Joe for putting in the pictures of their shaped boards. That was something I had not considered. The store always likes something fresh, and I've never seen them in there.
Pricing is even more difficult with those, but I'll try.

In the end, I took the advice of quite a few people above. I did look into my wood costs, and actually they were pretty low. I figured about two hours of labor on the block, 90 minutes on the cutting board, and the walnut oil and sandpaper is almost negligible. (The walnut oil bottle had about 90% of it left after the second board)

So I figured if I could clear $50 on the cutting block, made of mostly much lesser woods like cherry and maple I would be happy. That's two hours of my $20 an hour labor and $10 for materials. Since I am making other things at the same time in the shop, I discounted the other items like power, taxes, etc.

Taking the cutting board into account, less material but the kingwood did cost over $25 a board foot. The cherry I got highly discounted from a mill in the Smokies. $2.00 a bd. ft.
So I figured if I could clear $40 on that I would be happy. About 90 minutes to build that, not counting time in the clamps.

So in the end, the chopping block went into the store for $75, and the cutting board went in for $65. The manager thought he could sell them all day for that. The other guy had one cutting block that looked totally unfinished, with some clear gaps in jointing, and one board in the block that was actually unlevel with the others, and he had $62 on that and they had sold a couple. I felt that $75 was pretty reasonable for mine, with baby smooth finish, walnut oil finish, and it was thicker and larger. (My chopping block was 13.5" by 15.5" by 1 5/8" thick)
The cutting board I showed pics of above he just fell in love with, and actually thought we might get more than $65 in the future if I kept up with the exotic woods and wild colors. We'll see.

So my chopping block at $75, after their 35% commission fee, I get $48.75
The cutting board, at $65, after 35% fee, I get $42.25.

I'm happy with those margins, considering my time and wood. I think I know a lot of woodworkers who would be happy to pound out simple boards like that and nail $48 and $42 every time without having to set up at a fair or festival, and letting someone else do all the sales work. I know I am…

I have to think on making some in shapes. Obviously more work, so I have to think in terms of how to make them pop so I can get top dollar. My wife is after me to make some shaped like cuts from a cheese wheel, after some that she saw on Rachael Ray. You sell them in a set so people can carry them around at a gathering with their foo-foo food on them. We'll see.


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## JoeinGa (Nov 26, 2012)

Here's another tip … When I was making rectangular boards, I'd glue up strips in 4' and sometimes 6' lengths. Run thru the planer and sand with my ROS. Then I'd cut 'em into shorter lengths. I was giving them away so no one saw a stack of all the same looking boards. In a store situation, it may actually help sales.

Especially if some lady sees her friend's new board and asked "Where'd you buy that?" The answer would be "At so&so's shop. They had several more just like it."


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## rhybeka (Nov 8, 2009)

TN I just popped over cause I liked the picture of the cutting board  One suggestion might be to see if the manager would let you put a business card holder in the display of cutting boards - that could have your logo and such on it.  especially around the holidays it might increase orders or something if you're looking to go that direction and asking never hurts.


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## Tennessee (Jul 8, 2011)

Beka - unfortunately, they do not let you put business cards around the shop. They do have a profile sheet we had to develop that they keep on odd 5X8 cards and sometimes hand out and put on the walls above your main area. It is well done, but when your stuff is all over the shop, it is hard to know who did what. There are about 52 artisans competing for the space. Luckily they are not taking any new ones. There used to be over 85, but they did away with a lot of the lesser ones, and people whose stuff just sat there over time.

Essentially, if your stuff sells, they give you more space. The largest spaces go to the jewelry people and the pottery people, and most of the wall spaces are dedicated to painters, of which they have about a dozen. My stuff sits on tables, some wall shelves, but you see it right away when you enter.

In our community of about 50,000, it is somewhat of an local honor to be able to tell people that you are a "contributing artist" to the 5ive Points Museum. I got lucky and got in without all the usual committee stuff. The manager at the time, when she saw my jewelry boxes, she pushed me through in about three weeks. Some people, it took six months to get their stuff in there. I do get calls from people who want things outside of the museum. More of a resume builder than a money maker.


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## DirtyMike (Dec 6, 2015)

good looking work , i have seen similar boards that size sell from 60-90 dollars in my area. seems like the hard maple and walnut boards sell the best. good luck


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## Gixxerjoe04 (Jan 31, 2014)

I'd say those are good prices. I usually stick with maple, cherry, and walnut, hate the look of oak. I usually get some purple heart, bloodwood or paduk and mix those in because people love the colors. Plus those can be fairly cheap compared to the other wood you used, and only putting a couple thin strips in make it last awhile. As for burning in your name, I'd say some people like seeing that while others being indifferent about it. I have a branding iron and never use it, had a customer last week ask me to brand a serving tray I was making for them.


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## Tennessee (Jul 8, 2011)

Well, the first two boards sold in three days.

He called, and asked for two more. They took some of the other guy's work off display and put mine in. (Hope he doesn't come after me!)
When I put in the second two, (another cutting board and a chopping block), the gallery manager asked me if I could generate two more before Christmas is he sold the second two in a couple days. I said I could.
So I got one done on the third set, and the other is in the clamps. I figure if this third twosome don't make it to the gallery, I can send them to my sons for Christmas presents.

One other thing - I decided to try out Butcher Block Conditioner, that stuff with mineral oil, beeswax, vitamin E and carnuba wax in it. Put it on the board that came out of the shop yesterday.

I didn't much care for how it went on initially, kind of builds up and you have to work it. But after about 20 minutes of letting it soak in as the instructions said, I must admit that it leaves the wood on the board smoother than the walnut oil did, once buffed. I have no idea how well either well hold up over time, but the Butcher Block Conditioner is half the price of the walnut oil.


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## JoeinGa (Nov 26, 2012)

Sounds like it's gonna be a good thing if he's already asking for "back up stock"... who knows, maybe next time he'll call and ask for *five *more


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## Tennessee (Jul 8, 2011)

Five more and I would fart my pants! I am just now getting caught up to work on a really special guitar!


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## JAAune (Jan 22, 2012)

Yes, and that's why you need to be really happy with what the work pays. Imagine getting requests for 5 boards every week and not being compensated well for it?


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## Gixxerjoe04 (Jan 31, 2014)

How do the taxes work with that exactly? I assume the company charges sales tax to the customer, do you have to pay it again to the government for what you make, or just income tax?


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## FancyShoes (Aug 31, 2014)

Dude there is another thing you are missing, if you are selling those boards, you should make a kit that has your wax and sealer in it, maybe with some sandpaper as well, sell that along side your cutting boards so that as the boards are used, those people can recondition them!


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## JAAune (Jan 22, 2012)

> How do the taxes work with that exactly? I assume the company charges sales tax to the customer, do you have to pay it again to the government for what you make, or just income tax?
> 
> - Gixxerjoe04


Sales tax is a consumer tax. Only the end user of a product needs to pay it. However, you need to get a sales tax id to properly file it with the state and avoid paying unnecessary sales tax on supplies. I don't pay tax on lumber or finish or glass or anything else that goes into a product I'm selling. Usually I don't charge sales tax either because the buyer is either non-profit or a reseller.

Hopefully we never see a value-added tax in this country. That would be a nightmare though it would improve employment opportunities for tax officials and accountants.


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## Gixxerjoe04 (Jan 31, 2014)

> How do the taxes work with that exactly? I assume the company charges sales tax to the customer, do you have to pay it again to the government for what you make, or just income tax?
> 
> - Gixxerjoe04
> 
> ...


Hmm, I have a sales tax ID and pay sales tax when I do shows every quarter since it's to the consumer, but I pay sales tax on all my supplies. So I could get around that technically, or is there something special maybe with your business? Don't know much about taxes, been selling stuff for a year and a half, so just a side business. Just a sole proprietorship and not an LLC.


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## JAAune (Jan 22, 2012)

There should be a tax form from your state. Print one out, fill in the details and submit it to your supplier with the request that they don't charge sales tax. Don't forget that anything you keep for internal use still gets taxed. If you buy a chisel, you need to pay sales tax since you are the end user.

In Illinois, the proper form is CRT-61 Certificate of Resale.


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## Tennessee (Jul 8, 2011)

Gixxer the gallery takes care of the sales tax. I only have to pay income taxes on the portion of profit I get paid.

As far as not paying sales tax, I do have a federal tax ID #. I don't use it all the time, since it is just kind of a hassle to register at HD or Lowes when I might buy two or three things a year from them for my shop.

A lot of the stuff I buy for my shop, like wood, I have the number registered at two mills, but the guy out in the Smokies I always pay cash so I think he is off the grid, to be honest. I do get a receipt from him laying out what I bought so I can claim the cost when I do my books.

For a small business person, it can get very convoluted if you let it. I seem to fly just above the minimum allowable in my state on monthly income. In Tennessee, if you make over $400 a month in a small part-time business, you have to declare it a business and file and have all the licenses. So City Business license, County Business license, Assessor's office yearly payments, insurance, Federal tax ID, it goes on and on.

And if Congress passes the little known Interstate Sales Tax rider in the end of year budget this year, we'll be looking into paying sales tax when you sell something out of state, which is about 70% of my stuff. I don't like thinking that I will have to know what the sales tax is in say, Michigan, when I live in Tennessee. It will kill thousands of small Internet businesses, and I don't have any idea how anyone will monitor it.


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## Gixxerjoe04 (Jan 31, 2014)

Ah, hoping to find a better tax person this coming spring to help me know more about it all. Where I mainly sell at shows and some online and locally, most of my profit from it all comes a few months out of the year that I do shows. Of course this being my first full year of selling, i sold a decent amount I think. Of course then with all the money I made I bought a new table saw, jointer, planer, a domino, so I spent most of what I made haha, hopefully next year I won't be needing any big upgrades.


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## Tennessee (Jul 8, 2011)

I have a good guy tucked away in SW Pennsylvania that I have known for years. Certified in about 40 states. Yes, you need someone…but be prepared, since they will NOT do anything that will discredit them. If you made a LOT, you will pay a LOT - it is that simple.
On the other hand, you bought a lot of tools that may be deductible, I don't know. Get someone who knows, and ask for a couple of clients names before you choose. Reviews and testimonials are paramount when it comes to money.


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## DocSavage45 (Aug 14, 2010)

Throwing my 2 cents worth in, 10 cents in undeclared inflation? LOL!

Paul is making too much money. after his adjustments for the small business owner. There are a number of federal publications available to give you an idea of your profit and losses under the present tax system. travel expenses, materials costs, tools to be depreciated amortized). Depending upon percentage of use for home and work you may get some tax breaks.

If you are a legitimate business you can add training that you have paid for to improve your skills.

The home office apparently was too good a deal and the government has reduced deductions there.

I've used TurboTax and it's pretty reasonable. My friend said they screwed him so he is against them. It is a way to learn. You can always check with an accountant, which is also deductible?

Good luck and be profitable or as Spock used to say "live long and prosper."


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## JAAune (Jan 22, 2012)

A good business accountant is expensive but it's worth getting one right away. The early years of business require heavy reinvestment and almost all of it can be deducted. Get cheap on the accountant and you'll either lose the chance to deduct startup expenses or do it incorrectly and pay far more taxes in the future than required. If you aren't in a position of needing to depreciate expenses, you can probably get away with a less knowledgeable accountant.

At the moment, depreciation from major equipment investment is knocking my profits down every year. This will reduce taxes for the next two or three years.

That accountant charges around $900 per year and that price will go up once sales increase and I add payroll to the mix. I chose his firm on a recommendation from my lawyer. It turns out all those legal/financial people know each other and communicate frequently.


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## Gixxerjoe04 (Jan 31, 2014)

I just don't want to get screwed by the government if a bad accountant messes stuff up for me. I mean, I have a full time job and do this on the side so it's not like I make much money. I did 3 shows this year, sold a decent amount to people I know, word of mouth and some online, my total revenue will probably be around $9,000 for the year, not sure of my gross or net income. I think it's pretty good for my first full year of selling stuff and doing multiple shows. I think I could make a good amount more if I managed my time better and did more shows or just tried harder at selling, will have to work at that. Of course thinking of all my big tool purchases this year, I've spent like $5,500, which makes me cringe haha, but I figured since I'm young and want to continue to doing this forever, buy new stuff that will hopefully last many years to come. Pain in the butt making everything in my cramped 2 car garage though, if I had more room to work and didn't have to deal with moving my equipment around, could be a lot more efficient. I have always done my taxes on turbo tax or online and used one of the big companies last year. Sorry for taking this thread totally off topic haha, just trying to learn and grow from experienced people.

A little more on topic, I've had people who own shops ask if I'd like to sell in their stores, but stores around here take around 50%. The prices of my stuff are at a good price point to sell the items at, cutting that in half if I sold to a shop wouldn't be in my favor unfortunately.


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## Tennessee (Jul 8, 2011)

Doc - my wife doesn't think I make enough money!
And for the record, I didn't hit $9000 this year! Maybe its because I only use a one car garage! Ha!


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## DocSavage45 (Aug 14, 2010)

Paul,

If you made 9K net and you're not otherwise employed I hope you have another income source. Yep it' sprobably all about the garage. LOL!


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## Tennessee (Jul 8, 2011)

Oh yeah, Doc, this shop is what me and my wife refer to as "folding money". Good folding money, agree, but I don't pay the household bills with it. We have our main retirement budget totally separate. At 66 you tend to start thinking in terms of how long you want to hog and cut wood for people who order stuff, and when do you want to start doing it completely for fun.

This is just to keep me out of trouble…Hmmmmm - What?


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