# Fractal Burning



## Timbo (Aug 21, 2008)

I know this has been posted previously but stories of people dying from this continue to be reported.

Three deaths reported in January 2019 in this article.

If you are going to try this or know of someone who is check out this: https://www.woodturner.org/page/FractalBurning

Be aware and be safe in the wood shop.


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## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

Very good advice. Electricity is a dangerous beast. Even for those who fully understand it. Be safe boys and girls. Thanks for posting Tim.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

Definition of electricity:. Something you can not see, but can, will, and does KILL!!!! Just ONE TENTH of an AMP for 2 SECONDS CAN KILL. The burning issue above is not the only hazzard. ALL 120 volt receptacles in the shop should have ground fault protection! Mine do. Only the first receptacle in a circut needs to be a gfi, others fed from the first gfi will be protected. It is really cheap safety. The proper personal protective equipment needed to work with high voltage electricity is a long list. Forget the wood burning. It is not worth the risk to anyone's life.


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## MSquared (Aug 20, 2018)

People!! Please, Please, heed the words of IBEWJON!!! Electricity is nothing to be taken lightly. I've seen bad, very bad results. As a Cameraman, I've done work for power companies in the field, working with Linemen at Power Plants, Sub Stations, at the poles, etc.. Heard the stories directly from the victims. It's crazy-volatile stuff (that you can't see or smell, if ever, until it's too late). In my business, 'Electrics' are hired. Certified Electricians. They are given the parameters, shown the power source, and left to decide the safest way ( In our case, 'Tie-In') to distribute power. As a rule, they are never to be disturbed or distracted until we get the OK. Period. Don't mess with it!


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## MSquared (Aug 20, 2018)

Whew! Tim, Ken, Jon, sorry if I went on a rant there! You guys nailed it on the head. Be safe, don't take it for granted. Be safe!


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## stefang (Apr 9, 2009)

Good of you to warn folks Tim. Personally I never fool around with electric stuff beyond installing a light fixture, repairing a cord or changing a light bulb! I know and observe my limitations. Sharp edges not so much.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

MSquared::. Thanks for the backup on this. Woodworkers will spend $100 on a square or saw blade, but not want to spend $10 on a gfi receptacle. Sadly, after over 40 years as an electrician, I have had several friends, very experienced electricians, badly hurt on the job. Usually by trying to hurry, and not using proper work methods and not wearing the proper clothing and protective equipment. I see alot about dust being a danger, but dust is a slow killer. You won't die from one time without a dust mask. Electricity is a FAST killer, one mistake can be fatal. Use gfi receptacles, and if you don't know how to do the work, don't guess. Call a professional.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

The demos I've seen look pretty scary, especially the DIY units. I've always wondered just how dangerous this but I also wondered about the dangers of arc and MIG welders which seem to have few reported deaths, even though they usually aren't necessarily operated by people who would understand the dangers of electricity. I saw a guy on Youtube just this morning welding something while holding the electrode rather than the handle to get finer control with a long welding rod. That doesn't sound like a good idea but I've never really understood how it really works. Anyone know the difference between the fractal burners and welding machines? My ignorance has actually contributed to the reasons I haven't bought a welding machine.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

Most stick welders run between 30 to 60 volts on the rod, some are higher. The current / amps melts the rod. The leather gloves help protect from shock. Welders can also kill if the current passes through the heart. I have not seen any details of fractal burning, but it sounds like a high voltage operation. I will look further when I have time.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

I looked up fractal burning, and the hand demonstrating was bare, no high voltage rubber gloves, not even heavy leather. A gfi receptacle trips at 5 milliamps, and the burner shown produced 12,000 volts and 35 milliamps. Does not sound safe to me. Building your own from a old microwave would be foolish.


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## Grumpy (Nov 9, 2007)

My son is an electrical engineer. He says don't even attempt it!!!.


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## Fresch (Feb 21, 2013)

Just to add, electricity can kill you slowly, when you get electrocuted cells in your body change and or die, your body chemistry can change and a couple of days later you die.

We do have a burner member here and we talked about safety; if I recall he was being very careful and has some nice looking projects.


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

I just gave away a microwave to someone who was going to make it into a fractal burner… I was thinking about trying, but just don't have the time to fuss with it. A few years ago I did use the transformer out of one to make a DIY spot welder, which worked great… basically the same as described in this article:

Turn a Microwave Oven Transformer into a High Amperage Metal Melter!

Cheers,
Brad


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## panzer (Jun 1, 2017)

> The demos I ve seen look pretty scary, especially the DIY units. I ve always wondered just how dangerous this but I also wondered about the dangers of arc and MIG welders which seem to have few reported deaths, even though they usually aren t necessarily operated by people who would understand the dangers of electricity. I saw a guy on Youtube just this morning welding something while holding the electrode rather than the handle to get finer control with a long welding rod. That doesn t sound like a good idea but I ve never really understood how it really works. Anyone know the difference between the fractal burners and welding machines? My ignorance has actually contributed to the reasons I haven t bought a welding machine.
> 
> - Lazyman


Welders operate at low voltage, normally in the 12-50 volt range and high amperage. The amperage is many times what can kill you but voltage that low usually cannot break over the skin's natural resistance. This is the same reason you can work on a 12v system in a car without an issue and NFPA 70e (the electrical safety standard) allows you to work on energized circuits under 50v without protection.

I've never tried fractal burning, but my limited understanding is you use a high voltage transformer in the 2000-15000v @35-500 milliamp range. This voltage is in the range of overhead power distribution lines and these amperage levels are more than enough to interrupt your heart rhythm. And that is assuming it was put together by someone that knows what they are doing.


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## becikeja (Sep 12, 2010)

I did build a unit. I have worked in the electrical industry for 31 years and 15 years spent working with High Current UL test labs capable of generating 200KA for testing industrial circuit breakers at 480V. I'm scared to death to turn on a light switch. As others have said electricity kills, and kills quick. But when handled properly can be safely controlled. I built my unit with double redundancy electrical interlocks. For the current to be on 3 things must happen. 1) the unit must be plugged in. Whenever I move the probes the unit is unplugged. 2) the main switch to the unit must be thrown in the on position. This switch sits 3 feet from the probes resting on the wood. When this switch is on a Blue Pilot light shines indicating the unit is powered. Still no current to the probes. 3) I have 2 palm operated momentary push buttons 12 inches apart. These buttons are 3 feet away from the probes. Both buttons must be pressed at the same time, if my hand moves from either button the circuit shuts off. When both are pressed the pilot lights change from blue to red.

Ok some of you are saying, thats a little much. But I have caught myself twice so far watching the burn and then start to reach to move the probe. Luckily each time when my hand came off the button the circuit shut down the light turned from red to blue and before I could move 3 feet to the probes I realized what was happening. My point is, if you're going to do this. Make sure you build in precautions. It's really fun to watch the burn, and looks so harmless…..you will momentarily forget how dangerous it is and want to re-position the probes to make your art. Be safe, you cant be too cautious with this.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

It is great you are trained and experienced with this type of electricaly powered equipment. I have also worked in high voltage substations and done energized high voltage electrical work. Others that are not trained and experienced SHOULD NOT TRY THIS!!! It really is not worth dying for.


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## Fresch (Feb 21, 2013)

Two of us were taking a voltage reading with a hot stick on a job and the GC had slipped into the gear room and snapped a picture with flash; luckily we froze then ripped the guy a new one.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

A dangerous act on the part of the GC. Many people just don't understand how hazzardous working near energized equipment is.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

I know it wasn't funny to you at the time (and the GC deserved a second AH) but the thought of you guys freezing when the flash went off is sort of funny in hindsight when you think about it.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

It is not at all funny, then or later, or now. It was a stupid move, and extremely dangerous. One wrong move in that situation could cause an arc flash event. The temperature of the arc is hotter than the surface of the sun. All in the room could have been severely injured or killed, especially the GC who would not have been wearing the proper protective equipment.


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## becikeja (Sep 12, 2010)

Google Arc flash and watch the videos. You'll think twice


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## MSquared (Aug 20, 2018)

I totally agree. If someone did that on one of my jobs, not only would they have been ripped a 'major' new one, but fired on the spot and sent home! Let alone the word getting out immediately among the crew and being disgraced.


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

I was at a Christmas market this weekend and asked if the pieces were made using high voltage. He said yes and I replied that I have heard that it may be dangerous. He said yeah "I got shocked last week, I thought I was dead".

No thanks, not for me.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

I repeat: Fractal burning is a foolish hobby. Only good if you have a death wish.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> I was at a Christmas market this weekend and asked if the pieces were made using high voltage. He said yes and I replied that I have heard that it may be dangerous. He said yeah "I got shocked last week, I thought I was dead".
> 
> No thanks, not for me.
> 
> - controlfreak





> I repeat: Fractal burning is a foolish hobby. Only good if you have a death wish.
> 
> - ibewjon


i agree guys im not going anywhere near it,many here do but it's not worth the risk.


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## jacksdvds (Jun 13, 2015)

Some you tube videos demonstrate the idea of hooking the leads up to screw or nail contacts in the material and NOT having a body part in contact with the lead as the ONLY way to go. Myself I have done it with 3/4 inch wood dowels taped to the leads for handles and a foot pedal switch to turn it on. But I still used insulating gloves and floor mat.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

Please define "insulating gloves and floor mat"


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## jacksdvds (Jun 13, 2015)

> Please define "insulating gloves and floor mat"
> 
> - ibewjon


3/4" rubber mat or what seems to be rubber (never know these days) and high cuff rubber gloves.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

I used to make my living in electronics. I played with a lot of toys that would end you and even a few that could turn you into charcoal. That said, I don't know if I could make a long enough glass pole and put enough rubber under me and the project to allow me to trust this process.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

Are the rubber gloves tested high voltage gloves, or something from a home center? Is the mat a piece of conveyor belt with steel cable in it or a tested hot blanket? High voltage is not forgiving, and can be deadly. Wood dowels are not rated for high voltage.


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

I would go for the carbon gloves and mat.

I shouldn't joke about this….carbon is conductive don't do it.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

I would think the danger of this would be clear to all, but some insist on taking the chance.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

lets just all pray we dont hear weve lost one of our members because they wanted to make something cool.electrocution isn't cool.we have enough things in our shops that can seriously hurt or kill us why push your luck.good luck to those that do.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

If I would have tried to work with voltage like that on the job without the proper, tested safety equipment, I would have been fired immediately.


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

Is this a typo?

(fired vs. fried)



> If I would have tried to work with voltage like that on the job without the proper, tested safety equipment, *I would have been fired immediately*.
> 
> - ibewjon


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> Is this a typo?
> 
> (fired vs. fried)
> 
> ...


id say it works either way


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