# False Advertising



## mrg (Mar 10, 2010)

So, what you get to replace this?


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## ssnvet (Jan 10, 2012)

Given that they changed the ad when the discrepancy was brought to their attention, I think I'd call it "errant" advertising. The claim of "false" advertising would require "intent to deceive" in my book.

Not good that they screwed this up and their documentation led you to expect that you were getting something other than what you received. But that said, machinery manufacturers playing fast and loose with HP ratings is a practice as old as the hills. Case in point…. the use of the term "Developed HP"

Did they not give you the option to return the lathe for a full refund right out of the gate? Or did you have years of hard use on the lathe before you ever had any problems….. and then they sent you a replacement invertor free of charge. Was the machine still under warranty at this point?

Now that it's been 2.5 years, I think you're reaching a bit with your expectations.

And now you're going to register on every wood working website and make 1 post in a sour grapes effort to defame Grizzly? I just hope you live up to the same standard of perfection that you seem so intent on holding a discount tool importer to.


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## HGAlfrerd (Apr 18, 2017)

Yes, I returned the item and got a refund, but that is not my point.
I just feel that they did a really bad job in designing the lathe in the beginning and then insisting to run the lathe with an underpowered inverter is just plain wrong.
The physical dimensions of the correct 2 HP inverter was not that different and I could have easily replaced it, but they just did not want to do that. 
And yes, I try to make other customers aware of the fact that Grizzly is "cheating" their customers. I would not call this "sour grapes", but if you are happy to buy a product advertised as a 1 1/2 HP lathe with a 2HP inverter only to find out that the inverter is only 1 HP. Then be my guest and continue buying from them. I on my side am especially disappointed with the fact that they insisted on the 1 HP inverter. One should also keep in mind that the inverter is the most expensive replacement part on that lathe, but the cost difference between the 1 HP inverter and the 2 HP inverter was barely a $60 difference.
On my side, I found a very lightly used lathe locally for less than $300 and I am happy with that, but I will stay away from Grizzly product in the future.


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## Ocelot (Mar 6, 2011)

As an engineer, I can give an informal opinion.

All this is speculation, but I can see how it might happen. As engineers we often find that a part far exceeds it's specs, so it is a temptation to use it in a more demanding application, but then the supplier is free to change the actual item and since the new version still meets the specs, they feel justified in doing that without notice, but if we have used it beyond it's rated specs - because in our testing it worked great, we're hozed.

For example, I have accidently run a microcontroller rated at 10 MIPS at 40 MIPs and had it work fine, but I would never design a product that used it that way.

-Paul


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## EarlS (Dec 21, 2011)

Undersized equipment is not just an annoyance, it can also be a safety issue, especially when dealing with things like motors. Electricity is definitely something you don't want to take chances with. Lastly, when I buy a piece of equipment I expect that it meets the published manufacturer's specifications. I'm with HGAlfrerd on this.


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## Dutchy (Jun 18, 2012)

*A sad story. *

I have a own build lathe with a 400V 1500 W 750 Rpm motor. To use this motor on a 230 V circuit I ordered a 2.2 Kw inverter at Ebay in China for less than $ 150,-. It still works well after more than 3 years. It comes with documentation how to make the correct settings. There are more than 140 settings but I only had to change a few.

The reason I bought a bigger inverter (2.2 KW for a 1.5 KW motor) is because it was told to me to buy a bigger inverter to prevent problems. 
.


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## dschlic1 (Jan 3, 2013)

Most VFDs are self protecting. In other words if the max current is reached, they will either reduce their output or turn off. There should also be settings in the VFD to program it with the motor parameters. If entered correctly, then the VFD will also protect the motor.


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## ArtMann (Mar 1, 2016)

I looked on the Grizzly website and I couldn't find where they specified the inverter that came with the machine. Apparently, the lathe works, regardless of your personal opinion of what is an appropriate size. You are complaining about something you are speculating might happen in the future. I think I would reserve my public complaints until something actually goes wrong.


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## REL (May 22, 2008)

I once purchased an electrical coil 12 gauge extension reel from Grizzly. I was not happy that the lead wired plug was only a 16 gauge. No argument, Grizzly took it back at their shipping cost (which they should).

The fact the rep seemed to understand my problem so easily , lead me to feel I was not the first customer to complain about the issue.

Was Grizzly knowingly selling defective goods?

Harbor Freight wouldn't do that. Lower quality; yes.


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## HGAlfrerd (Apr 18, 2017)

It is funny (or not) to see how many of the comments are about accepting wrong information advertised about a product. I assume all of those people are also OK with a company selling them a car which lists 150 HP engines when the engine only provides 100HP. Don't complain about the company you can still drive the car and it might even be safer since you are not driving as fast as you would with a 150HP car.
On the other hand it is OK that your engine overheats and may break when you are towing a heavy trailer. Just wait and complain after you really needed to tow such a trailer.

It must be similar to what happens at the moment in our political system, where everyone just makes up their own facts and nobody cares about the truth.
I on my side insist that specs provided by a company for a product are met. I don't make any compromise on that end!


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

> It is funny (or not) to see how many of the comments are about accepting wrong information advertised about a product. I assume all of those people are also OK with a company selling them *a car which lists 150 HP engines when the engine only provides 100HP*.
> 
> - HGAlfrerd


What's funnier is that the car your driving probably delivers less hp than is stated!


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## HGAlfrerd (Apr 18, 2017)

I would definitely hire a lawyer and sue the car company, if such a CHEAT is as obvious as it was with the Grizzly lathe.
However, as mentioned before some of the participants of this discussion thread are apparently happy to be cheated.
So, for those of you who don't care too much about specifications, go and buy yourself a VW diesel.
You can claim that the car is a "clean diesel" and once you installed the corrected software you will have the lower performance. Be Happy!


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## dpotter (Feb 12, 2016)

Perhaps the best course of action would have been to return the lathe immediately when you were informed by Grizzly you would not be provided with an inverter that met your expectations. I am not clear about the timeline of your adventure, but that may have happened. If so, I am not sure why this is coming up 2.5 years later. If the lathe was just recently returned, I am not sure why you waited so long to return an item that did not meet its stated specs. If an item I purchase does not meet my expectations I simply return it.

Having said that, it is probably not a bad idea to remind people they should ensure the items they purchase meet the stated specifications.


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## HGAlfrerd (Apr 18, 2017)

Hello Dave
Yes, the lathe was returned "immediately" (after lengthy discussions with Grizzly asking for the correct 2HP inverter) and I got my refund. Nevertheless, I still had all of the trouble of setting it up as well as preparing it for the return shipment.
But as you said, I wanted to make everyone aware of my experience. 2 years ago when all of this started, I had send my complaint (first posting) to the Better Business Bureau, but since Grizzly is not registered with them, nothing come out of that.
Just recently I was cleaning up my computer and came across this previous document and I thought it would be a good idea to post it (again). What did I know that so many readers would actually take side with the company. I am absolutely astonished about those comments.


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

I don't think so many readers are taking sides with the company as much as they are with somebody joining a forum to complain about something that happened over 2 years ago.

Then you give 3 possible solutions like it is still ongoing.
Your asking for compensation in the way of a discount. 
(which if you were so dissatisfied, I don't know why you would buy from them again)

Hokie way of handling your business IMO!


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## Dwain (Nov 1, 2007)

Agreed, jbay. When you jump into the pool just to complain about the temperature, no one will want to hang out with you. You are "that guy". HGAlfred, no one disputes that the inverter could have been undersized. You claim false advertising, and possibly deceptive sales practices, however you chose to wait two years, then jump into Lumberjocks just to complain? Why did it take so long? If you had any history here, you would have know that Grizzly regularly gets good to great reviews for their products and especially their service. No company is perfect, but it seems as if you may have handled this a little better. Simple as that. I have never purchased any new equipment from Grizzly, so I can't speak to their customer service, other than what I hear, well… here.


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## HGAlfrerd (Apr 18, 2017)

I am not sure why so many of you are so hung up on the "2 Years". The time frame has no meaning in this case.
In contrast you should all be happy to hear about this, since there might be similar cases out there where you were sold one thing, but actually received something different.
For example the inverter is not an obvious component which you notice right away when you unpack the unit. You will only notice that you have been cheated when you run into a problem and when you carefully look at the specifications of the inverter, which actually is housed inside a cover-box.
How many of you would ever check these kind of things unless you need to repair them. Typically the customer believes what the company tells them. You should be happy that someone presents you with those facts and provides a detailed negative review. Whenever I judge ratings for a product or company, I don't look at the positive reviews, but I rather focus on the negative ones as tell me much more about possible problems.
Believe me or not, but I would still be a happy Grizzly customer, if the company had done the right thing: provided me with the correctly sized inverter, but they were not forthcoming at all in this case.


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## Ocelot (Mar 6, 2011)

You are only "cheated" if somebody intentionally gives you less than promised. But, in the real world people make mistakes. Sometimes the error is in our favor, but we rarely complain when the thing we bought exceeds its specifications.

It seems like Grizzly did all it could do here. Nobody's perfect. If we treat every error as a crime, nobody can do anything.

How much data you can store on a 32GB thumb drive?

-Paul


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## HGAlfrerd (Apr 18, 2017)

Yes, I received "less than promised" and Grizzly did not correct their mistake (they did not send me the listed 2 HP inverter). The inverter was "hidden" in a box and unless I had to exchange it, I would not have noticed this "error" or "cheat". Except for years later, when the inverter would be damaged due to being used at/above its design limits and at that point I am sure Grizzly would not have repaired/exchanged the inverter at all, but rather charged me $756.50 for a new one (check their web-site: http://www.grizzly.com/parts/p0632048 ). By the way, the same inverter cost less than $250 when purchased at an online electronic shop. So, Grizzly not only use a flawed design in their product, to potentially damage the electronic component, but they also overcharge for the repair components!
So, if all of you are such great Grizzly-fans go ahead and give these companies all the credit they so surely deserve.
I for myself had enough. 
By the way, I always expect that all components in a system "meet or exceed" their stated design/performance parameters. Why else would we have standards or any form of quality control. We are not living in a 3rd World country and companies have to meet these criteria. Otherwise we don't have to wonder if we are going to be a 3rd World country in a couple of years from now!


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## papadan (Mar 6, 2009)

Why did this guy wait so long to bitch about it. Others could have used this info long ago!


> *I am not sure why so many of you are so hung up on the "2 Years". *The time frame has no meaning in this case.
> In contrast you should all be happy to hear about this, since there might be similar cases out there where you were sold one thing, but actually received something different.
> For example the inverter is not an obvious component which you notice right away when you unpack the unit. You will only notice that you have been cheated when you run into a problem and when you carefully look at the specifications of the inverter, which actually is housed inside a cover-box.
> How many of you would ever check these kind of things unless you need to repair them. Typically the customer believes what the company tells them. You should be happy that someone presents you with those facts and provides a detailed negative review. Whenever I judge ratings for a product or company, I don t look at the positive reviews, but I rather focus on the negative ones as tell me much more about possible problems.
> ...


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## HGAlfrerd (Apr 18, 2017)

Yes, I received "less than promised" and Grizzly did not correct their mistake (they did not send me the listed 2 HP inverter). The inverter was "hidden" in a box and unless I had to exchange it, I would not have noticed this "error" or "cheat". Except for years later, when the inverter would be damaged due to being used at/above its design limits and at that point I am sure Grizzly would not have repaired/exchanged the inverter at all, but rather charged me $756.50 for a new one (check their web-site: http://www.grizzly.com/parts/p0632048 ). By the way, the same inverter cost less than $250 when purchased at an online electronic shop. So, Grizzly not only use a flawed design in their product, to potentially damage the electronic component, but they also overcharge for the repair components!
So, if all of you are such great Grizzly-fans go ahead and give these companies all the credit they so surely deserve.
I for myself had enough. 
By the way, I always expect that all components in a system "meet or exceed" their stated design/performance parameters. Why else would we have standards or any form of quality control. We are not living in a 3rd World country and companies have to meet these criteria. Otherwise we don't have to wonder if we are going to be a 3rd World country in a couple of years from now!
Just as a last word, I think it is time for me to stop fueling this discussion. I have said whatever there was to be said and people can draw their own conclusions.


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## Ocelot (Mar 6, 2011)

If I understand correctly, they accepted the return and refunded your money. Right?


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

Boy, talk about shooting the messenger. I'm with you, HG.


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## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

I have no problem with being upset with Grizzly. However, it is two years later and they refunded the money.

I do have a problem with people who only join the forum to complain.


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## Tennessee (Jul 8, 2011)

Usually when I see these types of problems/rants/dissing a tool company, I let it alone and don't comment.

On this one, however, the timeline is important for the following reasons:
Grizzly, like multiple other tool companies that sell Asian units are constantly upgrading units, inserting changes based on customer feedback, eliminating problems.
This is an incredibly tight, competitive market. We're all seen some units that Harbor Freight had killed off, only to see them show up on Grizzly sites, and that happens to a lot of others, such as MSC and others.
The two Grizzly units that I have that are large, my bandsaw and planer have been upgraded multiple times since I bought them years ago. To now complain about one of those units would be ridiculous, since they probably have addressed the issue if it was a real issue, like failing VFD units.

So although HGAlfrerd seems to think the timeline is not important - quite the opposite - it is VERY important, since these machines change often, many change more than once in a calendar year. The instruction books often show that they have a hard time keeping up.

To complain about a problem that happened in 2014, in 2017 is essentially worthless at this point.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Welcome to LJs HG
I understand you felt mislead with your purchase and that it did not meet the specs stated, you have a right to complain as long as you want, I had an issue with Laguna tools years ago where the salesman out and out lied and the product they delivered had multiple defects so I try and let people know about it to try and save them from the same fate, but there's always going to be folks that love products from the company you feel you've been wronged by.
In my case, I have had a number of Grizzly products that have served me well for many years.Do they meet the specs that they have stated? I have not Idea, I just know the do what I want them to do and the Grizzly has always given me great customer service.
Take care


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## fuigb (Apr 21, 2010)

I'm with the OP in that merchants must take care to deliver what they advertise and then stand behind the product. In this case Grizzly fell short and so as a consumer I'm grateful for the review & information, just as I am for the flood of reviews & comments about other products / companies appearing on this site.

Re: the remarks about it being distasteful that the OP appears only to have joined LJ in order to bitch… Yeah, I don't care for that so much either, but of all of the reasons to join, post, then vanish THIS one is most acceptable to me. Most often the one & done members join for opportunistic reasons, like stealing knowledge or trying to sell something. Personally, I feel more distaste for the anonymous guy from who-knows-where who suddenly appears and asks for help valuing a tool. That guy is a jock trying to get or offer a fair price for something close to their heart? Nah, it's a pirate at an auction house or consignment store who wants to make a buck and so feels out the collective wisdom here in order to not risk underpricing something by a few bucks. Say what you will about the OP, but at least he was offering information rather than skimming from the site.


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## rodneyh (Feb 8, 2011)

As an engineer, the only thing surprising is that this is not better hidden from the view of the customer. Design trade-offs happen constantly. The engineer is going to utilize the cheapest component he/she can that meets the customer requirement in terms of function and reliability. I don't know this design specifically, but speaking generally, a lot of "bad" things would have to line up for this to be a problem. Think about it like this:

1. HP requirement - How often is machine going to utilize its full available HP? This is going to be a very small number, certainly less than 1%
2. Current draw of motor - Rated current is almost certainly their 6 sigma case (even when drawing full HP). What this means is that less than 1 in 1,000 motors will actually draw that much current. The remaining 999 will draw less.
3. HP rating of VFD - Again, that 6 sigma thing. I'd wager that the vast majority of these VFDs are capable of substantially higher HP.

All of these would likely have to be in their "bad" state for a failure to occur. I haven't seen any major complaints regarding their VFDs, so I believe they've done their job (or made changes).

They seem to have treated you fairly by giving you a refund, so I'm not sure of your reasoning for complaint.

Lastly, let me say this: I am no fan of Grizzly. The only Grizzly tool I own is a 16" bandsaw that is the worst POS in my shop. I'd consider their planers due to their low cost, but that's about it.

Let it go. You'll be happier for it.


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## HGAlfrerd (Apr 18, 2017)

Hello rodneyh,
If all of these components are so (6 sigma) over-designed, then why did the lathe-motor cut out when I was using it with essentially no load?
I have the video files, but I am not sure how to upload them here.
Let me know in case you really want to see them.


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## rodneyh (Feb 8, 2011)

HG - No, I believe you. But you're really talking about a defective component here (doesn't really work at all), not one that's just under-rated. That's a reliability issue that I'm sure they've got some expected reliability cost built into their finances. I don't really know about the real reliability comparison between mfgs, but Grizzly certainly has a perceived low reliability on forums.


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## Jim Jakosh (Nov 24, 2009)

I have had very good luck with Grizzly but if I got a guy give me that story, I'd have asked for the supervisor. You had already proved that the smaller inverter does not work under the load you use …and it always should.

Good choice to send it back. 
May I recommend the Nova Galaxi lathe! I looked at the Grizzly lathes when I went shopping and I was all set to buy from Grizzly but the one I wanted was 220 V and I did not want to rewire where I use it. I am very happy with the110 V Nova! Great piece of equipment!

Cheers, Jim


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