# Festool (I just don't get it.)



## Fingersleft (Sep 25, 2007)

Okay -

This ought to start a frenzy of responses.

The simple fact is that, after studying and demo-ing just about everything that Festool makes, I don't get it!

Let's assume for the sake of discussion that cost is not a factor. Although, you've got to take a pretty deep breath before you read the price tag, even if you are not subject to a wife-imposed tool buying budget.

Now, given that I may still have a good degree of ignorance regarding Festool, here's what I do think:

1) It's made to a high level of tolerance. So is my table saw, and much of my other equipment.

2) It is truly high quality. (It would have to be, given the price tag.) But let me ask you, just how good does a cordless drill have to be? I can buy 3 DeWalts for the same money. And quite frankly, what I'm ultimately looking for is not a drill. I'm looking for a reasonably accurate hole.

3) Domino is interesting, and I've used loose tenons for many years. Is this nothing more than a $700.00 loose tenon machine with very limited size capabilities? Or a more robust plate joiner?

4) I can agree that the Festool system replaces a number of powertools with comparable accuracy. I'm I supposed to throw away all of that heavy iron I have come to own and love?

5) I acknowledge that the Festool system enables me to do the majority of everything I want to do, But no one, except Festool, is making attachments, and other stuff for Festool.

I've always believed that there are a good number of woodworkers who will buy just about anything that is new and expensive, simply to own it. I quessing that most of you don't think that way. So maybe there are some of you who can expain Festool to me. I just don't understand how it's become so popular so quickly.

Which piece of my brain am I missing?


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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

Like you point out Bob, it's neat system but I can do most of the tricks with the stuff I have.
There are a number of tools I could really use to increase my productivity but that system doesn't make the cut.
Don't get me wrong here Mot and Dave<g>.

When I win the lotto I'll get the set but right now I should be focusing on a Clearvue Cyclone or a decent 8" planer or new lithiium ion drills or a nice Leigh jig or an Ikeda or a new camera,or a new Mac or…


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## TomFran (Jun 19, 2007)

Sometimes I think there is an idea that if we buy the latest state of the art gadgets, then we'll be able to do what Norm does on TV without really having all the experience and good teaching. I know that I've fallen into that way of thinking before. If I would spend some time developing my skill with what I already have, I probably wouldn't need to buy more or better tools as often.


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## brunob (Dec 26, 2006)

...then I watch these guys who use a few bits and pieces of wood and a table saw and make dovetails as good as a $300 jig.


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## Frank (Nov 19, 2006)

Hi Bob;
--and then there's the point that you make; "But no one, except Festool, is making attachments, and other stuff for Festool."

And so once you start using 'their' tools, you are now locked into buying all the extra add ons that one needs to continue in this manor of woodworking, which is dictated by what 'they' are selling and will yet dream up….which only goes to prove that 'they' are smarter then I am, since their bank accounts are growing and I'm working harder to play in their game….

Never wanting to be a 'junkie' for no-one, I even make some of my own hand tools….but as for me and my house, I will work the wood in a manner that benefits the economy of my house.

Ah yes, life at working the wood can really be simple and good, and yes, only my two cents worth….
Thank you.
GODSPEED,
Frank


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## Radish (Apr 11, 2007)

While I certainly can't fault those who have a sufficient budget for Festool, they are beyond my means. When time equals money and you have more money than time, then by all means I can see the purchase as justifiable. This does not mean I don't actually lust after a Domino, and a LN plane and… things too numerous to contemplate. I would have to sell a powerful number of pens and boxes to justify the expense.


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## WaywardHoosier (May 9, 2007)

I can not fault someone to buy a quality tool especially if you have the disposable income. Festool is just too expensive for me to get started with their products. I'm a hobyist and and have a collection of tools from over the years (long before Festool was commonly sold), I have to use them unrtil they are rendered useless.

How do you justify a $600 vacuum cleaner? Feestool products look neat, are quality, but the price are more for those who make a profit from woodworking.


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## MarkM (Sep 9, 2007)

Bob,

I think that your points are reasonable. I guess to me it comes down to a need vs. a want (this is probably akin to your accurate hole theory). What a woodworker may need to get a job done is usually very different from what a woodworker may want to do it. Otherwise, we might all still be boring holes with a brace and bit and chopping mortises with a chisel - of course some do this because they enjoy it better than the alternatives.

With regard to Festool, it may be explained using the analogy of a fine German sports car vs. a more scaled back and simple vehicle that gets you from point A to B. Both will do the job, but if you have never experienced what it is like to drive a German sports car, you may not know what you are missing!

Coincidently, I just *blogged* about my budget alternative to using the Festool Domino for Loose Tenon joinery. Though I'd like to have the Domino in my shop for its performance and design I would have to havel a justified need before I were to purchase one. It sounds like you may already be doing Loose Tenons without the Domino, if not take a look at the simple method I describe.


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## Tangle (Jul 21, 2007)

Bob,
Festool is a well made system. If a person wanted to start from scratch, maybe it would be the way to go. My problem with the system is in the repeatablity. If I am building a set of cabinets, I do one setup on the table saw and cut all similar parts. I'll cut all the stiles and then all the rails. If I need a rail to be 15 7/8 and it comes 15 29/32 at least they are all that length. Same way on my chop saw and router set ups. I really don't see the possiblity of doing that with Festool. Now one of the Festoolians can tell me how wrong I am. But that's ok.I can take it Tom(mot).


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## DanLyke (Feb 8, 2007)

As we say over on the Festool Owner's group, "perhaps Festool is not for you, then".

I started without wanting a big shop, I have no big iron, and I'm a hobbiest. I can give you the reasons I went with Festool from that standpoint. A good number of the folks who use Festool that I've talked with are professionals, they justify the price difference with "compared to labor, the difference between a $50 cordless drill and a $400 cordless drill doesn't matter". For me, that price difference is pretty big, however:


I can get a saw on a rail from a few other vendors, a relatively quiet saw on a rail with excellent dust collection wasn't so easy to find. Even if the rail isn't quite as cool as the ones available from other vendors. It's not the features individually, it's that they're all in one package.
I've been burned by cheap tools too often. I don't know today what all of the features and things I want in a new tool are. My experience with Festool products so far is that if I buy Festool I won't ever know, because I won't notice the lack of those features. Unlike, say, my Skilsaw, or my Craftsman power tools. How many hours researching tool purchases rather than doing projects does it take for me to go with a brand that I'm relatively certain is going to be one of the best in the breed.
Yeah, it's a system. For good or bad. When the pitch was first made to me, I heard "system", and almost ran screaming from the store. Now I love that my jigsaw, my circular saw and my router all fit the same rail, and any jigs I build with those rails, and the table which has one of those rails on a hinge and a fence and a bunch of good ways to clamp my work stock.
My shop is my living room. Really. I do much of my woodworking over an afghan wool carpet, and there are 4 computers, a stereo and a bunch of knick-knacks in that room. Dust collection works that well for me.
We had a $80 vacuum cleaner. We also had one of those extremely expensive Kirby vacuum cleaners (inherited). Both of those were replaced by the Festool dust collector: it's quieter and more effective. My guess is that per-use it'll end up being cheaper than both.
What's the ratio of your spending on wood to spending on tools? Now remember that tools are the capital portion of that expenditure. For me, that put a lot of the tool price in perspective.

On the Domino, yeah, you can set up a router and a jig to do those things. On my list of things to do is to build a set of dining room chairs. I could make jigs to cut the tenons and mortises for all of those pieces. When I consider the time necessary to do those operations, and the potential for mucking up pieces that I've carefully cut, I'm thinking that that's about the time I get a Domino.

On the C12 drill, I've played with various battery powered drills and couldn't imagine getting a battery powered drill. But they had the 3 tool pack, with the sander and the jigsaw, and I wanted the latter two and my sweety/partner said "it'd be really cool to have a battery powered drill". I don't know where the break even point is, I know it's not the $150 cordless drills I've looked at previously, so it's somewhere between that and the $460 cordless drill I've got. Maybe there's a $250 cordless drill I'd be happy with, maybe it's $350, but it doesn't matter: I've got a cordless drill that's actually the first drill I reach for, even for tasks like drum sanding. Tons of tasks around the house have gotten done because I didn't have to string an extension cord and worry about what I was going to knock over dragging cables around, and could I have saved one or two hundred bucks? Maybe. How long would I have to have researched the topic to figure out what the differences were? That alone is worth a hundred bucks to me.

Like all of woodworking, either you're doing this professionally, in which case you can do a pretty clear cost/benefit analysis, or you're doing this as a hobby, in which case the cost/benefit analysis is a little harder to work out. The question I run up against when I look at hobbies is what parts of the hobby do I enjoy doing, and how much is it worth to me to avoid the parts I don't like doing?

I also have some familial reasons to not want a table saw that's not a euroslider or a Saw Stop: My dad's got a few short fingers… So, whether or not my concerns about a table saw are rational fears or not, that enters into my cost equation, and not only does the saw cost a lot more, I'd need a bigger shop in which to put it.

To take another simile, I ride a fairly expensive bicycle, and I ride in a very upscale area (Marin County, California). Most people around here who ride a bicycle in that class take it into the shop very often. I've met people who take their bikes into the shop to get a tire change, let alone adjust their derailleurs. I'd rather adjust my own drivetrain and change my own tires because I actually enjoy that tinkering.

Similarly, some people like building jigs and working to fine-tune alignment. That doesn't appeal to me, but if you enjoy doing that then the time spent on that stuff doesn't cost you anything. More power to ya! I'm a little less interested in the journey and a little more interested in the destination, and I don't have the space for a full-sized shop nor do I want to set one up.


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## Fingersleft (Sep 25, 2007)

Thank you all for your comments. Particularly Dan who took a good amount of time to add to my level of understanding. As my original post indicates, there is, no doubt, a valid market for Festool. I just wasn't quite sure where it was. As Dan says at the end of his post, and I completely agree, its the destination (the result) that counts. How you get there is a personal choice. However, for many of us who have gone a great distance on one path, it is difficult to absorb a completely new technology into our practices and mate it with the equipment we already have.

No doubt Festool is innovative and beautifully built. That's why I took the time to demo it. And again, in my original post I suggested that we leave cost aside. Lord knows the number of times I've spent, what some would consider a startling amount of money, for a special router bit. We all spend our dollars the way we wish. Possibly, if Festool had been around 20 years ago, I might have taken that path.

I also absolutely agree with Dan's comments about cheap tools. IMHO they are unworkable, dangerous - so much so that in the evaluation of the total price, one should include the cost of the materials which will be wasted and maybe even the first trip to the emergency room. Several years ago I was given a cheap ($29.00) Skill circular saw as a door-prize for a new store opening. After smiling politely, it went into the trash as soon as I got home. If I'm going to loose a finger, its going to be through my own carelessness, not the carelessness of some company trying to sell a cheap, poorly designed tool.

I also can relate to Dan's comment about "fear." Fear is instrumental in keeping us connected to our digits no matter which tool we use.

With respect to Mark's comment equating Festool to a fine German automobile, I would stack up my table saw, my surface planner, and many other powertools I own to Festool's quality and performance. I think Festool did not intend to complete with conventional high quality tools. They are simply introducing an alternative.


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## mski (Jul 3, 2007)

My 2 Cents,
Buy what you can afford AND NEED
What you cannot afford MAKE even if you don't need it 
What you cannot make Use what they used a hundred years ago, Sharp planes and chisels, sweat and sore arms
I challange anyone to say they can do better woodworking than a hundred years ago with Festool or Makita or DeWalt ect.
You just can do it faster, BUT not better . And less rewarding.
ME I'm alergect to sweat and sore arms, but still cannot afford $700.00 for mortises!
I did spend $400.00 on Icra LS, it does alot though.
I did spend $18.00 on a brad nailer at Harbor Freight, (it would shoot at will) the third one I got was safe.
Everthing I do not use constantly and does not have to be *very accurate *I buy at Harbor Freight or Grizz ect. BUT I do make sure it is working properly before I give it my relax blessing.
By Now
Mark


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## slaphitter (Aug 26, 2007)

There's nothing Domino can do that my trusty Beadlock jig can't. Been using it for years with plenty of success.


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## DanLyke (Feb 8, 2007)

Fingersleft said:



> I think Festool did not intend to complete with conventional high quality tools. They are simply introducing an alternative.


Two things there, the first is that Festool's been around since, what, the 1920s or so? They're just a new company in the North American market.

But to your "an alternative" point: exactly. Tom pointed out a couple of places that the "saw on a rail" concept requires different thinking. That's a big deal. If I pick up a magazine, I can make most if not all of the cuts the magazine suggests, but quite often I can't make 'em the way that the magazine suggests. I don't cut dadoes with a saw, I cut 'em with a router. For a tablesaw you've got to build a jig to do angled cuts, for the Festool saw you've got to build a jig to do repeatable cuts (where the MFT and/or the MFS isn't sufficient, although for most cases it is). Yes, it's an alternative, and sometimes it requires thinking about things in entirely different ways from the tradition.

For the sake of the portable shop and my safety concerns and the price of real estate where I live, I'm all over Festool. If you've got room for a SawStop with a good dust collector, there are times when I envy you…

And as slaphitter points out, yeah, I could cut dovetails with a saw and a chisel. Lots of people do, and I respect them. If money were no object I'd have a WoodRat. Diff'rent strokes.


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## Radish (Apr 11, 2007)

What you can afford to work safely and give yourself pleasure in your craft and end results that stand the test of time. That's really all that is important.


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## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

I posted this comment in the other "Festool questioning" post-- you can buy a $10,000 car and it will serve you well… but many people buy the $30,000 or $50,000 + cars. Why? the little luxuries and sometimes "just because I can".


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## Fingersleft (Sep 25, 2007)

Dan -

I didn't know that Festool has been around since the 20's. And regarding your comment about it being "a different way of thinking" - I agree. Maybe for me it's just too much of a different way of thinking. Like any new technology, it requires time to assimilate. I think in the case of Festool, it would require too much of a learning curve for me. If I were a beginner, that would be no problem. Also, your comments regarding a portable or small shop or small work space make a compelling argument for Festool.

By the way, your comments about SawStop are dead-on. I would have one in my shop today, if I hadn't purchased a new top of the line saw about two years ago. I could sell my saw, if I wanted to take a $1,000 hit. Somewhere off in the future, I know a SawStop will be in the shop.

Debbie -

As I mentioned in a previous post, I don't think the luxury car analogy stands up. I acknowledge Festool is top of the line. But so is Grizzly, Laguna, Performax, Powermatic, and a number of other brands, from a quality and precision point of view. (I hope this last comment doesn't start another "brand war". I know, we all have our favorites.)

Mski -

Harbor Freight! That's where I draw the line, particularly with any tool that shoots a piece of steel or spins a blade. I know all such tools are dangerous. However, I would like to think that the pieces/parts will stay somewhat connected.

And for all of you who mentioned DOLLARS -

If you want to see how to REALLY spend some money, just take a look at Bobby Hartness' shop in this month's edition of Woodcraft Mag. Makes me look like a pauper.


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## WaywardHoosier (May 9, 2007)

Many different reasons to purchase or not purchase the tools for our shops. I would like to drive a German car down the Autoban but this year I drove down I-80 through Nebraska for vacation. That is where I am right now.

Dan, I love your shop description and it shows how we have diverse lives that aproach our goal of woodworking. I have seen many outstanding shops with Festools in them. What a great way to go about woodworking.

I bought a $30 Rigid vacuum cleaner this weekend and I was amazed at how quiet and efficient it was for $30. Yes, it has been that long since I have bought my last shop vac. Would I have rather bought a Domino? Of course I would. My wife was glad I didn't!


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## mot (May 8, 2007)

I want to thank everyone for keeping this thread civil. If you search around on woodworking forums, topics very similar to these usually end up with rather offensive and berating comments. As much as I find topics like this to be pretty much intentionally antagonizing, I feel this discussion bore some fruit. Thanks all.


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## Jon3 (Feb 28, 2007)

I'm not a 'festool junkie' by any means, but I do have some of their products that I consider to be superior to the alternatives. I don't think of festool as a replacement for big iron, although I know some people use it that way.

I have a TS55 with guide rail system, for breaking down sheet goods and various cuts I can't do on my tablesaw. (My shop is narrow and I can't fit 7ft rails on my TS.) The superb dust collection is a big plus to me, so I got the package with the shop vac included, and I needed a shop vac anyway.

I have the Domino, as I was considering the leigh FMT and a decent quality biscuit jointer, and a tenoning jig for the tablesaw, and realized if I just went the way of the domino, it really wouldn't be much more expensive, and would take up less room, too.

I also got a small finish sander, the ES125, after seeing the demo in woodcraft of how little dust made it off the piece compared to some of the other major brands. I have sinus issues, so this is a big plus for me.

Thats it. I don't plan on filling my shop with Festool items. The C12, while a nice system, is just too pricey for me. I grabbed a brand new 18v Lion Makita for half that. The big routers don't interest me.

The only other items festool makes that I might be intested in are the table, which I don't have the space for, and consider just too overpriced, and the low end router, which I found to be amazingly controllable for detail work, but I just can't justify $345 for. Maybe a birthday gift or something!


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## alanealane (Oct 1, 2007)

I think a company who makes a cordless drill with a TINY THREE PHASE MOTOR has something good going on, but I think I can spend $400 on much more than a 14.5V 3Ah drill somewhere else.

If you want German tools, GO BOSCH!!


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## cajunpen (Apr 9, 2007)

I think that we can sum up the whole Festool vs Non Festool very simply - "Suit yourself and let the rest be pleased" If your budget can stand it and you want it - go for it. If not, buy what you want and can afford. Like the Luxury German car and Economy version - both will go from Point a to Point B - one will just do it more comfortably.


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## niki (Mar 26, 2007)

Ladies and Gentleman…some opinion from "across the pond"...

Festool is made for professionals that are working on the site.
It didn't come to replace the table saw for cutting those 4' x 8', every woodworking shop that is dealing with cutting plywood, Melamine or MDF sheets on a daily bases, has a Slider.

The guy that made for me the stairs, came with a "Systainer" that included the circular saw, router, sander,drill, rail and shop vac. When I asked him "why Festool, they are very expensive" he replied "there is Festool and there is the "rest"...reliability for long time and for me, as a pro, it's very important…time is money".

Festool is expensive than the other brands also in Europe but, Festool is "Made in Germany"...(Bosch and DeWalt are not made in Germany)

Small example of what I mean…You know the Hitachi M12V (and the newer, M12V2), you can get it in USA for $120~150 but in Europe it costs $550~600…why? I don't really know but I assume that they can sell at this price because all the European market is "expensive"...try to sell it in USA at this price and you remain with all your stock in the store…(btw, Bosch 4000 bench saw costs double in Europe).

But, Hitachi is not "Made in Japan", but, in one of those "made in Chiwan" countries and they can "play" with the prices (in Japan, it costs $300~350).

I think that because Festool is "made in Germany", there is no possibility to "play" with the price…it's the same price all over the world…like Mercedes BMW or Metabo (also very expensive tools).

I bought (after 10 years in the hobby, I thought that I deserve it…) an Elektra Beckum (now Metabo) table saw, it's Made in Germany and cost me around $1200….you would think WOW, no, simple extruded aluminum top and simple fence but every part is made in Germany, the labor cost is "a little bit" higher than China, and the quality is "a little bit" deferent so, it's expensive…(but I think that, that's the reason that many American companies "moved" to China…).

After cutting around 70 Cubic Feet of white Oak and many other "softer" woods, I could understand the difference from my other "Made in Chiwan" table saw…it's still like brand new…I'm checking the blade alignment just to find that nothing moved and actually, I'm working on it already 2 years "maintenance free".

Now, if you think that Festool is expensive, please check out this small drum sander
http://www.rjrstudios.com/

700 American Dollars!!!...why? because is "Made in America" and the American workers love big salaries, same like the German, french, Italians and the rest of the "Western world"...Not like the (far) "Eastern world" (except Japan of course)...

So, all the guys that thinks that "Festool" is "over-priced"....what do you think about this one…

BTW, I don't have any of the Festools, too expensive for an amateur like me…

Regards
niki


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## mski (Jul 3, 2007)

OK what is wrong with not being paid slave labor wages!!!!!! AMERICAN WORKERS and the other countries you mention do not love BIG SALARIES GIVEN TO THEM they just like to Earn a decent salary for the EXCELLENT products they make, I am an AMERICAN worker and 99.999999% of the time you are going to get a better quality product from somewhere that pays their workers better, USA or other. Sorry but saying we LOVE our BIG salaries got my goat because we do not get BIG salaries just good pay for what we do.
If you want to start pointing fingers point yours at the big CORPS that go to third world countries and take advantage of cheap labor and lower thier products standards and quality for profit!!!!!!!!!
I have a PC 690 routi'n for almost 10 years, close to the same price of imports, never even had to change brushes! PROUDLY MADE IN THE USA it says on the motor !!
As earlier in this post I do buy Harbor frieght tools when I need to or do not need endurance or precision, I am too an amateur, *BUT MY BIG AMERICAN SALARY *forces me to buy Harbor Freight tools sometimes.

Sorry To ALL but I couldn,t read that post without venting, I'm sure there are alot of the Western World Workers that feels the same as me!

Bye now , I gotta go take my blood pressure medication now
Mark


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## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

well if you can't vent amongst friends, where can you vent?? 

the big CORPS comment gets my vote-we complain about the quality from other countries and the working conditions but "we" keep setting up "our" factories there and using and abusing for as cheap as "we" can get so "we" can make big bucks. The results lie on "our" shoulders…. shame on us.


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## Buckskin (Jun 26, 2007)

An interesting read. I won't be part of the Festool Owners Group anytime soon. I still need to master my Harbor Freight biscuit joiner, my couping saw, my Stanley chisles and bench plane, and, and, and, and…

For those of you who can, or chose to, go for it.


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## mski (Jul 3, 2007)

Thank You MsDebbieP;


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## TheKiltedWoodworker (Dec 21, 2006)

Mark,

Niki wasn't knocking American-made products. He was equating the cost of an American-made product to that of a German-made product and saying both are worth more money because they are better-made than the crap that comes from China.


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## mski (Jul 3, 2007)

Red Headed: with all do respect this is the quote" "Made in America" and the American workers love big salaries, same like the German, french, Italians and the rest of the "Western world"…
He was knocking all us BIG SALARY WORKERS like it was the BIG SALARY that made it cost alot!!!!!!!!
What got me was BIG SALARY! Come to SO CAL and see what that BIG SALARY gets you!!!!!!!!
I am sure it is like that in the other BIG SALARY countries!!!!!!!!!!!
Should I take my family to a tent and work 18 hours a day for a pound of rice and cup of milk.
I did quote him , He should be critisizing the big corps that SAY I HAVE A BIG SALARY!!!!!!!!
And no offence Niki maybe you do not understand what is going on over here in the western world!
still love ya all


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## USCJeff (Apr 6, 2007)

The decision is easy for me. I simply can't justify Festool for the amount of work I do. I consider myself a little more "into" woodworking than the average hobbyist, but still can't bring myself to spending the bucks that Festool calls for. Having seen the demo's and playing a bit with them at the store, they seem to be top notch. Many have clearly innovative ideas that are likely to be duplicated in the future. If I did production work, there would be a Domino and a Plunge Circ Saw on my bench.

As for attachments and accessorires, I was once told if you want to be rich, find a need and fill it. Any entreprenuers out there ready to make some Festool knock off attachements?


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## niki (Mar 26, 2007)

Hi Mark

I'm so sorry that I was misunderstood, maybe because I'm not a native English speaker and my choice of words was not so good…I believe that native speaker wood choose better words than "big salaries" like you used the words "descent salaries".

But what is "descent salary", for the Chinese its maybe $200 (or less) a month, for the Americans, it's maybe $1000 a month for the Germans it's $2000 a month and for the Japanese, it's $5000 a month….

But the product is produced in some country that the "descent salary" is "so & so" and it cannot be sold for less even if they sell it in China that the "descent salary" is $200 per month.

I'm sorry, but I did not point finger to the Americans but to all the "western world" (that USA is part of it) that usually have much higher salaries than the "eastern world"

I live in Poland, I feel very rich here, you know why, because a GOOD (even very good) salary here is around $1000 a month…people are living here from $200~300 retirement.
Just two days ago, a Policemen was in my house and he told me that his salary is 1100 Zloty = $423 and he have wife and two kids to feed…."if I will work in UK in construction, I'll get 3 times more (and in UK, it's considered cheap labor.

But all the "goodies" here, (cars TV fridge etc.) costs the same like in Germany, France etc.

I think that if you take the Festool or even Mercedes and produce them from exactly the same materials, technology etc, and make them in China, they will cost much much less…same as you will produce this Drum sander in China, it will not cost $700.

I did not have any intention "point a finger" or to say "you rich Americans" or something in the same spirit, on the contrary, I think that the American products are great, but they cost so…I was flying on American airplanes, B707 and B747 and at the time that you had to "tie" the mechanic to the engine on "other countries" airplanes (so that he can repair it in-flight), the American airplanes were "clean" and so easy to work on…

And I'm still your friend

Best regards
niki


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## shaun (Sep 16, 2007)

I'm wondering if I want to chime in on this or not since it has appeared to become a sensitive subject. But I'm going to throw caution to the wind. One thing that needs to be considered in the discussion of international trade is the foreign exhange rate between the two countries (regardless of which two are being discussed). The foreign exchange is an open market and the value of currency changes from one second to the next. So the $550 USD it takes to buy the Hitachi MV12V in Europe today might not be enough tomorrow or you might go home with change. The FOREX market will decide that for us. If you take a look at companies like Caterpillar. Their stock price has gone up about $20/share over the past 12 months and the primary reason for this is that the USD has been losing value against the other major currencies of the world. This makes their product line less expensive for people oversees and increases their export sales. So they are selling more stuff to people in other countries at lower prices (mesured in the currency of that country) but are still comming home with the same number of USD's in their pockets. There is a down side to this. As the value of the USD declines against other currencies then it takes more of our USD's for us to buy their stuff. The macroecnomics in play here are much broader than how much the guy on the asembly line takes home. It is a factor in the equation right along with local interest rates, CPI, GDP, oil prices, consumer confidence, PPI, ISM (in the US), Tankan Survey (Japan), retail sales, trade balance, and the list goes on.

I'll bet our Canadian friends remember not too long ago that the buck they had in their pockets turned into 50 cents after they crossed the boarder. Do it today and that buck is still pretty darn near a buck. In fact there were recently a couple of days, if you picked the right day, you actually crossed over with a little more than a buck.

Realizing what I just said had aboslutely nothing to do with Festool, it's still something to consider in this conversation.


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## shaun (Sep 16, 2007)

and… no offense taken here Niki and the same goes to Mark. We each have things that we are passionate about and are entitled to our opinions about them.


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## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

I'm not very knowledgeable on the economics/financial stuff but I do know that some days my paycheck takes me to the dollar store only and some days I can make a trip to Lee Valley 

Ah the joys of opportunity: paycheck / living expenses / purchasing choices.

In the end it all boils down to : what you want to do with the tool; what your personal preferences are; and what you want to spend on the products.

To each his own …. and the results (no matter what tools you use) can be seen in the 2865 projects posted here on LumberJocks.com!!


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## niki (Mar 26, 2007)

About the Dollar - Euro exchange rate, have a look at this site, its the Festool Germany (translated) site,

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.festool.de/&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dfestool%2Bde%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG

Please click on "Mill" and on the new page, click on the "Domino peg milling cutter DF 500" a new page will open and you will see the price in Germany…680 Euro that are around $800 (1 Euro = 1.2 Dollars).

Again as I mentioned, not even in my "wish list"

Regards
niki


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## Hawgnutz (Mar 29, 2007)

Too funny! Here we started on a post about Fedstool, and encded up where? International trade!
I am intrigued and captivated by the Festool technology and workmanship, but balk at the price! I hope the loose tenon joinery will go the path of the bisquit joinery. Lamello started with a "lock" on that markwt, but now we find inexpensive, yet quality, bisquit joiners everywhere.

Just like portable calculators. I remember spending over $100.00 in the 70's big money then) for a TI SR-10 that did square roots, sqaures, and the usual functions. Today I can get all that in a $ 0.99 calculator from Habor Freight or Walmart! Maybe Festool's loose tenon joinery system is headed that way. I hope so! I will not pay $700 for a toy I wil use sporadically. If I were a professional that made tenon joints daily, I would jump at the convenience. But, I wil continue to use my drill press and router to do any tenon joints I do.

God Bless,
Hawg


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## TomFran (Jun 19, 2007)

"I think that we can sum up the whole Festool vs Non Festool very simply - "Suit yourself and let the rest be pleased" If your budget can stand it and you want it - go for it. If not, buy what you want and can afford." 
- Cajunpen (Bill)

There's the conclusion of the matter in a nutshell.


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## shaun (Sep 16, 2007)

LOL… if you want to change the subject just invite me to the conversation…..

it's a little worse than that Niki… the EUR/USD was at 1.41 this afternoon. So if you want to make some cash all ya gotta do is buy a bunch of Domino's in the US for $700 a peice then sell them in Europe for 680 Euro's convert your Euros back into US dollars and you'll pocket $260 on each one that ya sell. Mmmmm I wonder what it costs to ship a Domino to Europe?????


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## Frank (Nov 19, 2006)

--LOL….and now I know what's wrong with my way of thinking. I never could find enough room to conclude the matter in a nutshell and still be pleased….so I split the shell and started growing and thinking outside the box….

The funny thing was once outside the box, I found there were other's of like mind and we still disagreed….but we disagreed outside the box. Oh well, inside the nutshell or outside the nutshell, it's still a small world.

GODSPEED,
Frank


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## mot (May 8, 2007)

This is really why I hate topics like this. Well, not so much topic as much as it's opening sentence. It's meant to start controversy more than provide information. This same topic has been beaten to death over the last year on many woodworking forums. I suspect that topic author knows this, yet was not content and felt that the froth needed to be whipped up here as well.

Frank nailed it. Cajunpen nailed it.

You know why there are so many ways of joining wood? Because they all work. Use the one you feel like for the application you require.

Enjoy!


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## Fingersleft (Sep 25, 2007)

Hi Tom,

I'm the guy who started this post. Yep, I kinda thought there would be a number of opinions about Festool on both sides of the fence as there is in the aisles of a tool store when Festool is discussed. And I really wanted to understand the market for the product. Dan was very helpful in this regard, early on. BUT, I NEVER THOUGHT IT WOULD COME TO THIS! And I never intended it to stray as far as it has.

Being new to the site, I don't want to develop a reputation of churning things up, as you have suggested.


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## Chip (Mar 13, 2007)

I wouldn't be concerned Bob. I've been following the comments on this since you posted it and quite frankly, unless I'm missing something, all have been quite civil and interesting when addressing your actual topic. If I paid $400 or $500 for a drill I'd probably defend my decision to buy it with some emotion too.

Perhaps I'm overly simplifying, but the only thing I see on here that seems to have "whipped up" some controversy is some guy who's not happy with what he's getting paid at work and took it out on poor niki. That is actually where it went off-topic and things got ummmm, testy.

Just don't want you to ever feel like you shouldn't bring up a woodworking blog topic on the site Bob. If people don't like what's being said there's and easy solution. Move on to the next topic.

Have a great day!


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## mot (May 8, 2007)

Tennis players.









And, no worries Bob. I've just seen this one beaten to death for over a year. I'm just over sensitive to the subject. Please take no offense to my comments. The thought of being criticized for something as stupid as choice in power tools just chafes me.

I look forward to seeing more of your projects, and reading more of your posts.

Tom


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## Chip (Mar 13, 2007)

Golfers. pfffft. ;-)


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## Frank (Nov 19, 2006)

--and Bob; 
....also if you ask around….what do I know any-way, we're all just tossing our two cents against the wall seeing who comes closest….course I never could figure out which side of the wall I was standing on….LOL

So after all is done and said, glad to have you around here….

Thank you.
GODSPEED,
Frank


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## shaun (Sep 16, 2007)

Maybe I'm a nut case but I don't see anything wrong with a healty debate. It gives me the opportunity to see things from someone else's point of view and discover something I might not have considered previously. It gives me a chance to re-think my position and more than once has caused me to change my opinon as a result of having learned something I didn't know before. The key is to enter the conversation with an open mind and not take it personal when someone has an opinion different than your own. I'd like to thank EVERYONE for their opinions on this subject, whether you are passionate about them or not. If no one ever tried anything new then we'd all still be cuting boards with an axe.

I can imagine a bunch of guys sitting around the camp fire round about 1929 saying this Stihl guy is nuts. Why would I spend all that money on this crazy saw that I have to put gas in and then when it breaks I gotta go to him to have it fixed.

This particular conversation has served to confirm my opinion on Festool. It is extremely high quality stuff and does exactly what it's meant to. If I could justify the expense I'd own one of everything they make. In the mean time I have to sit here and envy those of you that do own the stuff while I figure out a way to justify buying my own.

Thanks again for the conversation and your opinions!


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## Frank (Nov 19, 2006)

Hi Shaun,
--LOL, even though I use a chainsaw….I'm still one of those guys cutting boards with a broadax….just got to love it….

GODSPEED,
Frank


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## alanealane (Oct 1, 2007)

If anyone's REALLY RILED UP over all of this discussion---Put on your favorite tune & Dance!


Either that, or get out in that woodshop and CUT SOMETHING UP!!--Wood only please….

We All Gotta release the tension….somehow, otherwise we'll all join Mark with the blood-pressure meds. ;-D


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## mski (Jul 3, 2007)

Sorry Niki, I understand , I thought you were from the UK? I guess when you posted your gripper alternitave
you were talking about saw gaurds.

Chip, The problem I have is Always hearing how US workers are underworked and overpaid, and lead a life of luxury, I work hard for my money and make a decent living and love my job! never said I'm not happy with my work!
Mark


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## Blake (Oct 17, 2007)

Wow.


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## philros (Sep 29, 2013)

My saw cuts straight. My dril makes nice holes. My jiggsaw, if I'm not drunk works very weel. My router is a 21 st century marvel, I can even raise it from above .... etc, etc, etc

These are all good tools, from good brands, reliable, efficient, etc….

Oh did I mention they are NOT festools ?

No justification whatsoever of the price of festool. A straight cut is straight wether its a bosch, mkita, or even a skill saw.


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## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

Phil

You brought back a 6 year old thread for what purpose? To complain about the price of Festool products? To stir the pot?....Both?

If Festool can't justify the price of their product, they'll go broke. Pain and simple.
They seem to be going strong though, so there's got to be something behind it.
Good for them.
Simple fix for you. If you don't like it….don't buy it.

ps…..No, I don't own any Festool products.


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Tony, you're always in such a great mood. Does everyone have to do it your way?


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

Festool offers designs which save time in jobsite situations,
especially like home interiors where you have to clean up really well
at the end of the day.

The secondary market (perhaps the primary one N. America)
is the non-pros who can afford to invest in power tools that
all match. There's no question that in a cramped shop 
Festool's storage system (and Plug-it cords in newer tools)
helps with efficiency.

In a disorganized shop a lot of time gets lost looking for 
all sorts of little junk. I literally think I am 20%-30% more
efficient at woodworking when I have the shop dialed-in
in terms of at-my-fingertips organization.

For a cabinet installer or other jobsite precision woodworking 
though, Festool helps you get in and out fast and clean.

Bosch is pretty good too. Slick stacking cases, larger than
the Festool format. I have both case systems.


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## ichbinpete (Jan 12, 2011)

haha, i just read this whole thread without looking at when it first took place.


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## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

Thanks for stopping by deek. Always a pleasure…


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## Loco (Aug 11, 2013)

How many times I have to tell you guys. It's all about….........METABO !!! 
;-)~


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## BHolcombe (Sep 19, 2012)

I own a few festool pieces including a router, jigs, tracksaw, dust collection and sanders. Festool as always struck me as being very high quality portable solutions. Portable being a very key idea, if you are a traveling cabinet maker or carpenter and want to work with tools that are portable and offer incredible capacity than you have a good solution with festool.

You can work inside someones house using normal outlets with have effective dust collection and perform accurate work comfortably.

In my own shop I sometimes find festool to be preferable to cabinet tools, but also sometimes find the opposite. For breaking down sheet goods, I find a tracksaw to be a wonderful thing, same thing for putting a square edge onto something that has nothing to work off as a basis point (slabs, ect). 
I find their handheld router to offer a very intuitive working experience, that is also accurate. I spent my earlier years in a machine shop, so finding something that has micro adjustments and can work off a mobile track is very good for me.
I find their sander to be very good, but I have no comparison to it, so their may be something else out there.


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## Lazy_K (May 27, 2012)

festering tool is not what it's cracked up to be. the Festool line is poorly but slickly made. the machine tolerances are sloppy. I hate them. they are made to look slick together not to work well. the cases seem tough until you drop them and I think that they had an engineer there instructed to see how loud they could make them. like cars people are often attracted to gloss and high price and like cars the extra price for the gloss doesn't usually equate to a better machine. rant done.
K


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## SCOTSMAN (Aug 1, 2008)

That does not make sense with tools debbie !you can say an expensive car will out last and be more to your taste and comfort plus hold it's price over the years if looked after than a cheaper alternative. But with tools especially festool it is just crazy it imho is a form of tool snobbery many people love(inc myself ) to sometimes show off our tools especialy when you get what you want at a bargain price tht does it for me.I particularly like buying older industrial machinery doing it up and using it but festool is just stating to the other guys I have money nothing else makes sense of course they are well made but as our jock friend said I would rather have three makita's or dewalt's than one festool mho only Alistair


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## agallant (Jul 1, 2010)

Reasons to buy Festool (not saying I agree with the reasons)

Someone wants to buy you a wedding gift and you figure if you are not paying for it the domino jointer would be a nice thing to have

If you think they are going to last forever and you are the "i only want to buy it once so I will buy the best"

If you drive a Mercedes because you enjoy it for being a nice car, Festool makes nice tools

Because Tom Silva uses the drill on This Old House

You are rich and it will never get used but they will make your shop look good

You won the lottery

You own a business and have most everything you need equipment wise to run the business but you still need to get money out of your bank account by the end of the year

You are European

You ran out of money to spend on other things

You are just getting in to wood working, don't know any better but will buy the nicest things (like the guy who just got in to mountain biking and spent $5,000 on his first bike)

Honestly if I won the lottery I would get them, they are just nice tools but not nice enough that I would spend my own money on them, that's just wasteful.


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## SCOTSMAN (Aug 1, 2008)

I thought you said if you won the lottery you would give me half of the winnings now your going to buy expensive tools what kind of man are you ?Alistair


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

German made tools will cost more because they use a lot of skilled workers that have been replaced in this country by smart machines. A Chevy may run as well as a mercedes, but we are talking a name associated with quality and pride of ownership over the last century. We have champagne taste with a beer budget, so it's Chevy for me and Dewalt until I win the lottery.


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## crank49 (Apr 7, 2010)

I'm sorry, but I have worked for Germans in an American plant making parts for a Mercedes vehicle being assembled in the USA.

Same parts went into a VW and a Saturn and a Gran Am and a Ford pickup.

The crappiest machines we had came from Germany. The most complicated and finicky machines were French and the best machines came from Italy and USA.

The most obnoxious engineers I ever dealt with in my entire life were all from Germany.

I think Festool is about what I would expect it to be.


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## PurpLev (May 30, 2008)

I think the problem with Festool is that everyone nowadays think they need it… and then they see the price point and start to rant about it.

From the specs, Festool is designed for specific jobs and environment and while it could work for everyone if they paid the premium for it, it really isn't meant to be a household item.

If you look at Festool and have to ask yourself "why would I pay so much for this particular tool" - then this particular tool is not for you (if it's value does not appeal to your intended use of it). and I am not saying this in a negative point of view - but simply as a matter of fact.

oh - and no, I don't own festool tools (other than 1 which I happened to get a great deal on, but otherwise would never even think of getting). I do have a track saw - a cheaper Scheppach version at 1/3 the cost of the Festool because I like the person that I depicted above do not need the value in the high price of the festool - and I am ok with the lower cost alternative. does not mean that I don't think the Festool version does not have it's place - it does - and its prices fairly similar to the Dewalt and Makita equivalents.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

There is a lot of justification for Festool. I don't own any Festool tools, as much as I would like to, but I can still appreciate god quality when I see it. There are those who say Festool is not worth the price. To that I say no way. They are worth the price. Festool is made in Germany, by German workers, using German made parts and for German consummers. No one will argue against German engineering. True, American engineering is also good, but the difference between a Festool and a Dewalt is not a matter of engineering, but of how much it cost to manufacture. If you made a Dewalt cordless drill using American labor and American made parts (100% American made), that $179.95 drill would cost about the same as the Festool. All American tools are either made from foreign (Chinese) parts and assembled here, or 100% made overseas. About the only part that is made here is the plastic housing that holds all the parts together.

If Festool followed the way of Bosch and Makita; making tools in an American factory, you could see the cost of Festool coming down. The quality might not be the same.


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## JAAune (Jan 22, 2012)

The cost of tools isn't everything. For the pro, saving hours of time is often better than saving a couple hundred dollars. Festool is a pretty small investment compared to a lot of the other time-saving devices deployed in the professional shop

Here's a quick photo tour of a current project. A client wanted some massive, embossed moldings on an altar top which could not be obtained from any standard supplier. Since I do have the tools that allow me to do this sort of work quickly I was still able to do the job without going over budget.

First, the glued up stock gets milled roughly to shape on the CNC.









This is post CNC and before cleanup with scrapers and sandpaper.









After ripping operations on the tablesaw, the carved molding (I chose to give the client carved molding instead of embossed) is inserted into place.









The last two steps were quick and easy compared to the above. I went to the computer and found that I needed a 25.5 degree miter and a 38.4 degree bevel. Then I just slid the Kapex into the appropriate miter position and turned the handy little knob until the bevel gauge showed 38.4 degrees and made perfect cuts into 7" wide by 2 1/2" thick moldings.










Eight quick plunges with the Domino completed the joinery. It took me as long to attach the pine clamping blocks as it did to cut all the joinery.

Can all that be done with less expensive tools? Sure, but I wouldn't want to make a living using cheaper tools and working slower. Doing those compound angles on the old Dewalt would have involved many test cuts and lots of fussing around to get the bevel in the right position.

By the way, that CNC machine would be an industrial grade unit like a Thermwood but unfortunately, I didn't have $80,000 to spend on one. It's unlikely anyone will ever see me complain about Thermwood being over-priced though.


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## JustJoe (Oct 26, 2012)

I won't comment on the Festool thing, I did last year and I'm still finding flaming bags of dog doodoo in the mailbox. (I forgot the 2nd Commandment of the internet - thou shall not take the name of Festool in vain. )

But doesn't that last paragraph there kind of go against the whole argument.

You used CNC. But not the 80 grand one because you couldn't afford it. And yet you still got it done. 
But the Festool doesn't do anything that a much less expensive tool and a $5 bevel gauge could do.

That seems to undermine your initial argument just a bit. But like I said, I'm staying neutral on the whole Festool thing (I just chimed in because I'm bored so I thought I'd hit a few random threads and drop some troll messages.)

I will say that Sawstop sucks though. No fear in saying that because those guys are too scared to come over and try to defend themselves lest they get hurt ….

 That's a smiley face people. it means I'm being humorous so please, no more bags of flaming poop in the mailbox….


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

I'm far from the pro-est of the pros but this is my philosophy on
tool acquisitions.

If you don't see how the tool can either:

a) make you money by saving you time or,
b) increase your enjoyment of your time on earth…

...Then don't buy it.

Festool power tools have superior resale value however if 
a current production model, and a 30 day return for refund 
deal, so realistically, if you don't believe they are top shelf 
but are open minded you have not much to lose.

I showed my festool ROS150 sander to a painter friend
of mine once and suggested it would save him time over
all those $60 5" sanders he used. His comment was,
more or less, "I'd be afraid to drop and break it. I drop
sanders from a ladder several times a year and I'd
rather keep the investment level down."


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## CharlesA (Jun 24, 2013)

The different chucks on their cordless drills are slick looking. Outside of that, what difference would I notice if I used a Festool drill over my similar voltage Bosch cordless (which I love)?


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

I wouldn't for the work I do. An organ maker in my town uses
them though and they love to tight clearances for organ installations. 
They are pros and Festool drills, despite initial and battery
replacement costs, are the right option for them.

I use a corded (HF) right angle drill if I need a tight drill clearance.
I don't need it often.


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## JAAune (Jan 22, 2012)

@JustJoe

I have no idea if you have experience with CNC but the $80,000 Thermwood has an automatic tool changer, vacuum pump and superior speed and rigidity over my machine. That would increase machining speed by at least 50% and save me 15 minutes setup time switching bits and clamping down the boards. Spending $80,000 could effectively double my production at the CNC.

Similarly, the Festool Kapex eliminated 5 minutes of time messing with t-bevels (it takes one hand to hold the t-bevel and two hands to adjust the old DeWalt bevel) and it does that multiple times per day. Plus it just makes a straighter cut than any other slider I've used and collects more of the sawdust (less time vacuuming). Between all that, I can easily save myself 10 minutes time with each compound setup I do. Factor in shop rate over several years time and compare cost vs. savings.

I don't care if people want to use cheaper tools but to complain about better tools and expect everyone else to scale back to the same is hardly justifiable. I know JustJoe said he isn't one of these but I've seen others basically state that no tool company should ever charge more than they feel like spending.


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## yahelarmster (Oct 4, 2013)

Well, IMHO festool is like a Mercedes, I own a Lumina 2000', and i guess the Mercedes and the Lumina would get me to work on time, but my Lumina might (MIGHT) need more maintenance, I guess, but if I had 500,000 pesos what do you think I'd buy? yes, a new Lumina and a Powermatic tablesaw, and an 8" Jointer, and a drum sander, and probably a lot of wood, when I bought the festool rotex I remembered what Chris Rock said about gasoline, I had to go to the bathroom and think about Sasha Grey, when I spend that type of money I'm used to …


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## philros (Sep 29, 2013)

Having a drill , whatever its price, with cheap bits doesnot mean nything !
Having a saw, whatever its price, with cheap blade does not mean anything !
Having a cutting table, whatever its price, with cheap wood to cut, does not mean anything !

Festool is pure snobism to me. I will not buy cheap tools, but I think brands like Dewalt and Bosch have sufficent history to be well ahead of festool (Probably the next one Bosch will take over, anyway!).

Anyone can eventually buy an Audi or Mercedes, but every time you go to the garage, you will pay 200 $ for an oil change (Made with the same oil and same filter than the Lumina !!!)


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## Hartworks (Jan 9, 2014)

Festool….absolutely love their tools, no not because they are high priced, or they carry with them any clout based on price, or their origin, simply because they work and they work well. My first purchase was a Domino, CT 26 dust extractor and a Rotex 125 sander. Figured if I did not feel they were worth the money I would try them out for the 30 day period and return them. Never looked back and now have several other Festool products. The system as a whole works seamlessly together, and the dust collection is excellent. I know the price is hefty, but I have actually saved time in not only clean up but build time as well. And I don't know about your shop but time is money.

All that being said it comes down to constructing quality work. If I like to use Festool to achieve a satisfactory result and you can do the same with different tools then you will not hear me argue that Festool is necessary. I like tools that work well and work together, I believe that the time some of these tools save me has value to it. Each must weigh this for themselves and make that decision. I do agree very much that tools do not give you quality work, the craftsman is the only one that can bring that to the table. So in closing, DO IT, DO IT RIGHT….USE WHATEVER TOOL IT TAKES TO MAKE IT RIGHT.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

I look at it as the difference between driving a Ferrari and a Ford. They both can get you there, but it's how you get there that matters. First class or coach.


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## SCOTSMAN (Aug 1, 2008)

Philros said.
Festool is pure snobism to me. I will not buy cheap tools, but I think brands like Dewalt and Bosch have sufficent history to be well ahead of festool (Probably the next one Bosch will take over, anyway!).

I absolutely agree a total con It reminds me of the story of the emperors new clothes.Look it up and then see what your paying for,It is another case of designer tooling.Which is an absolute con imho it cannot do the job five times better than a standard well made non rediculously priced luxury brand again all IMHO .No let me see , what is it they say about a fool and his money being easily parted.LOL.Go ahead and spend it all just to let us all know how big an overdraft you have LOL It is exactly like the man with ten dollar shoes who has a thousand dollars in his pocket and his friend with a thousand dollar shoes with ten dollars in his pocket Alistair lol


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## JAAune (Jan 22, 2012)

Festool actually tends to be cheaper in the long run. First, they are designed to hold up to heavier usage and need less replacing. Secondly, they're often a little easier and faster to use and time savings adds up. An added bonus is that they are easily repaired at reasonable prices when they finally do wear out.

Comparing prices between two tools then running a direct comparison between their ability to perform a single job is the wrong way to go about it. Anyone who does that will be out of business in short order. The goal is to save dollars and time in small increments spread out over a long period of time.

One doesn't think, "a tool that costs 5 times as much needs to do this task 5 times faster." The correct way to think is, "if I save 5 minutes each working day over the course of a year I'll save 21 hours of time valued at $55 per hour for a total savings of $1,155."

If price were the only consideration, why is it that large cabinet shops are running $100,000 CNC machines when I can do the same work on my $10,000 machine? Since their machines only work twice as fast and only have a marginal increase in quality of cut, they should only spend $23,000 for their machines and pocket the $77,000, right?


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> Okay -
> 
> This ought to start a frenzy of responses.
> 
> ...


I'm coming in very late on this post. I skimmed a few of the replies. It's just another Festool thread like a thousands other. If you don't get it that's fine. Don't buy Festool and leave it at that. It's really none of your business why I buy Festool or how I spend MY money. If you want to go totally the opposite direction and buy Harbor Freight tools be my guest. That's your business and you money. I'm certainly not going to start a thread on "Why do you buy that Harbor Freight junk". Personally I think your just a troll who likes to stir the pot.


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## NiteWalker (May 7, 2011)

> I m coming in very late on this post. I skimmed a few of the replies. It s just another Festool thread like a thousands other. If you don t get it that s fine. Don t buy Festool and leave it at that. It s really none of your business why I buy Festool or how I spend MY money. If you want to go totally the opposite direction and buy Harbor Freight tools be my guest. That s your business and you money. I m certainly not going to start a thread on "Why do you buy that Harbor Freight junk". Personally I think your just a troll who likes to stir the pot.
> 
> - AlaskaGuy


The OP hasn't been active in over 6 years…

With regards to the thread, I can comment on this one:


> 3) Domino is interesting, and I ve used loose tenons for many years. Is this nothing more than a $700.00 loose tenon machine with very limited size capabilities? Or a more robust plate joiner?


 It's a loose tenon machine that may seem limited in size, but who says you only can use one loose tenon per joint? I got my domino (500, not xl) at the end of may and it's already saved me a lot of time on paid projects. Whereas with my old mortising router jig, I could do a set of 8 mortices in about 10 minutes or so, I can now accomplish in 2 or 3. It may not seem like a big difference, but that extra 7-8 minutes adds up on multiple projects. My woodworking brings in spare cash, so if I can be more efficient in the shop, I'm all for it.
The domino is worth every penny, and if I end up with a lot of larger projects I'll probably get the 700 as well.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

There are people who like to spend money and those who like to save money. There are many rich people who do woodworking as a hobby. Cost is not an issue with them. If I were rich, I would have all Festool, a Ferrari, yacht, etc. Money was made to spend, not to hoard in your mattress or bury in a tin can in the garden. A little caution needs to be exercised when spending money. Make sure you are getting what you paid for; not throwing it away. Sure a Dewalt will do the same job as a Festool, but if money is no object, why not? It's only money, right!


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## NiteWalker (May 7, 2011)

> There are people who like to spend money and those who like to save money.


If only it was that simple…
I haven't had a "real" job in years. With the money I make out of my workshop, I'm able to live decently. The quicker and more efficient I'm able to work in my shop, I'm able to earn more per hour.


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## spclPatrolGroup (Jun 23, 2010)

If I had my shop in the house it would be tempting to look at Festool due to its extremely good dust control, but I just cant spend the coin they command. If they would drop the price of the domino by at least half I would seriously consider one, I get by with a dowel jig, but it is quite slow compared to the speed I have seen the domino machine do. I think part of the high price tag is definably a marketing ploy to distinguish them, if the cost of producing one of their routers compared to a bosh or dewalt ever leaked out, I think it would ruin their niche.


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## PLK (Feb 11, 2014)

Dave,

I don't own a dominoe, but you're comment on it is exactly why it is priced the way it is. You get by with you're dowl jig. I get by with mine too but it's a substantially slower procedure. If your doing that sort of joinery everyday I would think it would pay itself off in no time if you have a steady work flow that required joints like it can produce.

Paul


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## NiteWalker (May 7, 2011)

I wouldn't say it's a marketing ploy (the high prices);, maybe a bit of engineering pride. ;-)

I've had my domino since the end of may and it has almost paid for itself in time saved.
I'm not a complete festool convert though; I do plan on getting one of their dust extractors, and a couple of their sanders, and maybe a carvex, but other than that I can't see myself outfitting my entire shop with festool like some of the guys over on the FOG.

$1300 for a miter saw? Crazy.
$1200 for a router table? Crazy.

One more thing, you do get a very high level of service with festool. If you have a problem with a tool (and it happens) the level of customer support is among the highest I've seen. Not many other companies can claim that.


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## RichardHillius (Oct 19, 2013)

If I was charging by the piece for my work I would probably own a number of Festools especially the Domino as the ability to make loose tenons as quickly as biscuits does have some appeal to me. If I was doing a lot of road work on site I think their dust collection is top notch as well. It seems to me that the track saw, sanders and routers with their dust collector would make doing custom on site cabinetry much more efficient.

I don't really do either of those so have not really been terribly drawn to them as of yet although I will say the router looks top notch especially that dust shroud. The next time I find myself in the market for a plunge router I think the Festool is going to be a top contender.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

I don't know if it has been mentioned before, but if I were in the construction trades, I would not own Festool; too easy to get stolen; in the home shop; OK.


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## intelligen (Dec 28, 2009)

I was pretty close to buying some Festool stuff before their most recent price hike, then I backed out and figured I could wait until their next reconditioned sale and try to snag a couple things at 30% off. It's not a lot more savings than the prices with combo discounts before the price increase, but every little bit helps.


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## mbs (May 8, 2010)

I have some festool products and I love them. They don't replace my big equipment. I've have the old porter-cable stuff, bosch, makita, craftsman, harbor freight, ... I like Festool the best of all. Especially the sanders attached to their vac.

I dropped a heavy object on a ro150 sander. I called festool. they said "that's no good… send it to us and we'll send you a new one". I like good customer service.

I try to buy used tools. I think I can use my festool products for many years and sell them for about what I paid for them. I can't do that with the other brands.

I hope you all enjoy your purchases as much as I do - regardless of what brand they are.


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## OCDADD (Apr 12, 2015)

Here is why I believe I'm going with Festool. I have to move from a 3800 sqft shop with all IRON to a garage…
My sliding format saw needs 11' x 22' and weighs 5000 lbs. Festoon isn't the same, however, I can move it!

I might be wrong, however, sometimes you can't fit the IRON yet you still want to have a chance at getting it done right. And yes, it's all going in an auction…


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## timbertailor (Jul 2, 2014)

People complain about the prices. Kind of silly really. We would have to pay the same prices if it were made here in the USA (i.e. Woodpecker Tools). Funny what happens to the price of a product when you have to pay a fair wage to an adult, pay taxes, workman's comp., insurance, social security, holiday's, jury duty, military time, health care, meet EPA regulations, health and safety codes, maternity leave, vacation, 401K, pension plans, severance, and the list goes on.

Yet, Germany has one of the strongest financial positions in Europe. Go figure.

So if you have a crap job that pays very little and you can not afford Festool products, you can thank American politicians for not protecting American jobs, and its citizens loss of purchasing principles.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

Festool is the Mercedes Benz of tools. When have you ever seen a bad MB. They cost more for a reason and Festool also costs more for the same reason; Careful manufacturing and quality control, like everything else German made. Ford and GM have been known to produce crap, usually at their bottom end, but MB has always held high standards. Festool appears to be doing the same. Like everything else, there are expensive watches and cheap watches. A cheap $10 watch can be as accurate as a $5000 Rolex. Sure there is a degree of "snob" appeal involved in anything you buy, whether it be cars, watches or tools. Bottom line: If you got the money and can afford it, why not? If I had the money, I would be wearing suits made in Italy, not one sold by Walmart and I would be eating prime rib, not hamburger.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

> If I had my shop in the house it would be tempting to look at Festool due to its extremely good dust control, but I just cant spend the coin they command. If they would drop the price of the domino by at least half I would seriously consider one, I get by with a dowel jig, but it is quite slow compared to the speed I have seen the domino machine do. I think part of the high price tag is definably a marketing ploy to distinguish them, if the cost of producing one of their routers compared to a bosh or dewalt ever leaked out, I think it would ruin their niche.
> 
> - spclPatrolGroup


If they dropped their price by half, I think the quality, reliability and service also would drop by half.


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## Momcanfixit (Sep 19, 2012)

Very old thread, but interesting nonetheless.
I am a hobbyist and I own a Rotex and a dust extractor. 
I don't make my money woodworking, it is purely a hobby/therapy/pain management/feel good part of my life.
I don't own Festool for the 'wow' factor because nobody sees it or cares other than me. I own Festool because I wanted to sand in the garage in the winter without all the dust.
My Festool allows me to do exactly that. 
Could I have 'made do' with something else? Probably.

I bet you can catch salmon with a piece of dowel and some string. I wonder if fishing sites have this same discussion over high priced fly rods.


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## MarkDavisson (Apr 26, 2009)

> When have you ever seen a bad MB.
> 
> - MrRon


When my Dad took delivery of his.


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## Ocelot (Mar 6, 2011)

As somebody once said, there is more difference between no car and a $500 car than between a $500 car and a $100,000 car.

Tools are like that too.

-Paul


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## dawsonbob (Aug 5, 2013)

> As somebody once said, there is more difference between no car and a $500 car than between a $500 car and a $100,000 car.
> 
> Tools are like that too.
> 
> ...


Hallelujah


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

I guess I should keep my mouth shut because my LN plane is due in today. ;-)

The thing about the Domino is its a one-function tool so its automatically way down on my list. 
Now, if I had a big job that the Domino would save a lot of time and pay for the tool, yeah, I'd get one.

I think they have very good DC collection vacs.

I think it boils down to just like we all strive for perfection in our work, we prefer to use the best tools to do it.
If we can't afford it or justify it, we use jigs, or settle for the next best thing.

The thing about the really high end toolmakers is sometimes there really isn't that much diff in a tool, but there are people whose skills are such that it matters to them.

That's why I bought a LN plane for the price of about 6 Ebay Stanleys.
After struggling along with trying to refurbish old Stanleys I finally got my hands on a LN as a Christmas present and all I can say is "wow". I'm not rushing out to buy every plane LN makes, but if I can justify one, I'll buy it.

My thing about Festool is, how much better a tool can a drill or router be than, say, a DeWalt for 1/3 the cost?
I mean, really, $800 for a router? That doesn't mean I'd like to try one and maybe I'd change my mind.

What irritates me is I think there can be a certain "snob factor" just like "I drive a Benz".
But to a guy living in an affluent area with money, plunking down $1500 for a miter saw is no biggie.


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## PaulHWood (Mar 26, 2012)

Agree totally, but don't tell my wife. My standard excuse to my wife for not doing something right is that I didn't have the right tool.

I will add not only spend time developing skill, but organizing workspace so the proper tool is in hand. I don't know how many times, I have tried using the wrong tool because the right tool was too hard to get out.



> Sometimes I think there is an idea that if we buy the latest state of the art gadgets, then we ll be able to do what Norm does on TV without really having all the experience and good teaching. I know that I ve fallen into that way of thinking before. If I would spend some time developing my skill with what I already have, I probably wouldn t need to buy more or better tools as often.
> 
> - TomFran


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## mcg1990 (Nov 11, 2014)

How has this gotten to 97 replies with no mention of Apple?

Honestly, I'm not sure how anyone can discuss the price of a luxury price point product with no analogy/explanation that alludes to what is pegged to soon be the first trillion dollar company.

No matter what business you're in there will be the Harbor Freights and the Apples, and in between the Grizzly, Jet, Powermatic, all that stuff. At the lower end of the scale you care about price point, and then less so as you care more about quality. However, the interesting phenomena occurs at the top end of the scale where once again you care about price point. This is not to say Festool doesn't care about quality, only at that extreme of the scale there are severe diminishing returns with further investment in quality control and materials.

Festool are trend setters. Just like Apple, they're saying "do you want to be part of the old, or part of the new? The future is with us." Watch Simon Sinek's "How great leaders inspire action." People don't buy what you do, they buy why you do it.

People aren't buying into Festool's $300 jigsaw, they're buying WHY Festool made a $300 jigsaw, which is - we're not content with mediocrity, we're building the best. And yes, that includes Tron style colour scheme and a fancy 'systainer.'

As for the complaints of no third party add-ons - they have a standard of luxury that they are not willing to let others dilute. I imagine Festool wakes up in cold sweats after nightmares of a Bosch guide installed on their $900 router.

I'm not saying that they are the best, or that they're value for money, but they certainly, absolutely believe that they are the best and they're letting you have a slice of the pie in owning their products. It's almost like you're becoming a partner in the company. "I own the Festool track saw, I'm part of the future, anyone else coming with?"


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## Putttn (Feb 29, 2012)

As with most quality items the resale value of Festool tools is great. I know we don't purchase tools with that in mind but it does help in justifying the entry price. Plus, Festool gives you 30 days to return the tool for a full refund. I would imagine that most of you fellas could determine if the particular Festool tool would work for you in that 30 day period. 
For me, I enjoy working with tools as much or more than what I produce with them. I'm strictly doing woodworking as a hobby. Maybe I should be called a "toolworker"!!


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

If you don't get Festool then watch out for Mafell:















And no one makes a better jig saw with a price to match:


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

Just as I thought - its more than just the tool.

Spoken as an IBook, Ipad, Ipod and Iphone user…...



> How has this gotten to 97 replies with no mention of Apple?
> 
> Honestly, I m not sure how anyone can discuss the price of a luxury price point product with no analogy/explanation that alludes to what is pegged to soon be the first trillion dollar company.
> 
> ...


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## BroncoBrian (Jan 14, 2013)

Waho6o9 - Wow, did not know of that stuff.

Now the TS55 seems like a bargain.


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

Correct BroncoBrian, Mafell's the real deal.


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## AHuxley (Apr 22, 2009)

> I guess I should keep my mouth shut because my LN plane is due in today. ;-)
> 
> The thing about the really high end toolmakers is sometimes there really isn t that much diff in a tool, but there are people whose skills are such that it matters to them.
> 
> ...


Festool is similar to LN tools. It all comes down to diminishing returns paying twice as much for an item rarely if ever gives you twice as good of a product (though that is extremely subjective). The thing about diminishing returns is that it really depends on the person. Often it comes down to disposable income and the amount of passion one has for a particular pursuit. Woodworking is different from many other hobbies since many people actually do it for a living, for those it comes down to time and money and is often a simple question. Someone that does a lot of site work and does and charges for high quality work often finds Festool to be a money maker. On the hobby side it is a different equation. Some people have more money, less time and/or fewer hobbies the farther one goes over to that side the more likely they are to buy Festool. While tools don't make the final product better tools often result in a better final product and if not almost always save time getting there. We must remember that each person has their own level of acceptable in tool quality, for some it is Harbor Freight and for some it is Mafell.

As for the drills and routers you see this a lot particularly with the drills. Most people who talk about the drills and routers as being "insane" (<my> jointer…


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## mandatory66 (Jul 26, 2012)

A $600.00 vacum, Really!! Does it serve breakfast in bed?


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## AHuxley (Apr 22, 2009)

> A $600.00 vacum, Really!! Does it serve breakfast in bed?
> 
> - mandatory66


They are VERY quiet, have excellent filtration, have very high quality hoses, have variable suction (important with sanders), have air high volume for a portable extractor, are very easy to maneuver, carry systainers and have tool on-off activation. If you are integrating them with other Festools they offer myriad other benefits as well. The key here is when you compare their price to other roughly similar dust extractors by Dewalt, Bosch, Fein et al the prices are not that dissimilar. While they are excellent for a home shop they really shine in work inside the house for a weekend warrior or site work for a pro.

For me I haven't seen the need since I use a Oneida Dust Cobra plumbed through the whole shop as my high vacuum/low volume extractor and is a whole different ballgame compared to portable dust extractors with an induction motor, cyclone and significantly more volume and about the same static pressure ability, the only negative is it isn't variable suction which means I have to bleed air for certain uses.


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## Cory (Jan 14, 2009)

I have recently taken a big drink of the green Kool-Aid and I will throw in my $0.02

I only have a limited amount of shop time (work, family, etc) and all of my Festools make that time more enjoyable. I get more done in less time and there's less to clean up afterwards. I often take my tools to a job site and transporting them is very easy, too. Every single tool works flawlessly every single time. Their quality is top notch.

Their tools are expensive, but for me they're worth every penny. You can always get by for less, but you really do "get what you pay for" with Festool.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

All of festool is good, but as others mention not so different than other products. Is a festool cordless drill really better at driving drywall screws than dewalt? How "Flawlessly" does such a tool really operate to discern any difference at all.
Just like a Snap-on wrench isn't better or longer lasting than Craftsman…both with lifetime warranty. And until 2010 both made in the USA… so same pensions/401K insurance paid at "Western Forge" as the costs for Snap-on, but one is 4X the price of the other.

That said :
Is festool vacuum really so much more expensive than a Kirby for inside the house?

Hurry they only have one left!!


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## jmartel (Jul 6, 2012)

> Just like a Snap-on wrench isn t better or longer lasting than Craftsman…both with lifetime warranty. And until 2010 both made in the USA… so same pensions/401K insurance paid at "Western Forge" as the costs for Snap-on, but one is 4X the price of the other.
> 
> - DrDirt


A Snap-On wrench IS better and is longer lasting than a Craftsman. Better tolerances, better materials, better machining quality, etc. Whether you would need that increase in benefits or even notice it depends on the type of work you do. Lifetime warranty means nothing on the quality of a tool. Not to mention SnapOn goes to the dealerships on a weekly/daily basis and will take care of returns, new tool purchases, used tool trade ins etc all at that same time. No trips to the store after work hours required.

Same type of deal with how I view Festool. One works fine, albeit not the smoothest/fastest/most comfortable way to do it and is perfect for people who don't do this 50-60+ hours a week. Another is designed for that niche market which will use it on a constant basis. The people in the former category won't see much benefit if they move up to the professional tool, but the people in the latter category will notice a huge reduction in benefits by moving to the lower quality tool.

And no, I don't own any Festool. My new track saw is a Grizzly. My vacuum is a Rigid. I don't own a domino/dowel jig/mortiser/etc.


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## BroncoBrian (Jan 14, 2013)

> Is a festool cordless drill really better at driving drywall screws than dewalt? How "Flawlessly" does such a tool really operate to discern any difference at all.
> 
> Is festool vacuum really so much more expensive than a Kirby for inside the house?
> 
> ...


Hilarious about the Kirby.

If you were getting a drill for sheetrock screws, I would not consider a Festool. I have a great Makita I really love. I want the Festool b/c of the chucks it comes with. For the size and depth options, and the angles, and edge-friendliness, that is a great tool. Worth the money IMO, but not if you want to build a playground, or screw in sheetrock.


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

I know very few woodworkers in my area, but the ones I know that have a festool or 5 swear by them.

One of em thinks their track saw is the best thing since sliced bread.

When you want quiet, clean, precision tools, you're gonna pay for them.

Sure you can do without a domino. What if you have a shop that has to build 30 doors in a day? It's gonna pay for itself in time saved.


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

Festool has a chuck specifically designed for sheet rock and it works

well, it's #5










The depth setting on the drywall chuck is a real time saver both installing the screws
and apply the mud:


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## CharlesA (Jun 24, 2013)

My sense is that every woodworker compromises between quality and price differently depending on the tool. For some of us, only a $200 chisel will do, or a $500 plane, or a $500 ROS, or a $800 track saw, or a $4000 table saw, or a $150 coping saw. Very few of us go for the top in every category. So there are LJ's who swear by a Festool track saw, but love harbor Freight clamps, or can only use a Lie Nielson plane, but find DeWalt sanders to be perfectly acceptable.

A lot of it depends on how vital the tool is for your particular work. Given the way I work, a better drill/driver isn't worth more to my than my Bosch. I don't use much 4×8 plywood anymore. If I did every week, then a Festool track saw might be worth it.

I'm doing more and more hand work. I just upgraded my coping saw, and that is great, although I'm still not going to spring $150-200 for a Knew Concepts Titanium model. If I were a luthier by trade, that Knew Concepts fret saw might be economical.


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## hotncold (Mar 4, 2014)

I bought my first Festool sander and dust extractor after sanding for over an hour on an end grain cutting board using my trusty Dewalt ROS. I had sanding dust covering my eyebrows and you could see the dust hanging in the air. I have never seen any sander that worked as well and had the dust extraction of the Festool. 
Festool products work…and work very well.

Until I bought my Festool sander I could not imagine that I would pay that price. I now own several Festool tools and they make my hobby more enjoyable than ever delivering precision, speed and virtually no dust.

The two camps are entrenched…those who "just don't get it" (I was one) and those who have bought/used Festool and are now converts. I don't know of anyone who bought Festool products and regretted it…surely there are some, but I don't know of any.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

Let me sum this up for all you naysayers who have never used a Festool or other so called over priced tool, Felder, Martin etc.


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## Ocelot (Mar 6, 2011)

I'm not sure I agree. There are also those who *accept* what they don't know about.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

I "Get" the track saw
I get the domino.
I " Get" the sanders (mostly anyway)

The router - not so much
the Capex SCMS - - not so much

but:

I do *not *get the cordless drill at all…. 575 bucks for the T18.

I believe that sometimes folks just decide that having all their tools match is a deciding factor.
No Yellow tools next to the coveted Black and green



> Festool has a chuck specifically designed for sheet rock and it works
> 
> The depth setting on the drywall chuck is a real time saver both installing the screws
> and apply the mud:
> ...


Not sure I see where the depth setting saves time and *"Applies the Mud"* LOL not sure I saw that in the sales brochure :^P

versus what i did in our basement…

For drywall - - $2.49


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## MarkDavisson (Apr 26, 2009)

> It all comes down to diminishing returns paying twice as much for an item rarely if ever gives you twice as good of a product (though that is extremely subjective). The thing about diminishing returns is that it really depends on the person.
> - AHuxley


This just about sums it up for me. There are objective measures and subjective ones. The objective measures are easy: how long the battery holds a charge, decibel level put off by the tool, weight of tool, etc. The subjective measures, though, are up to each of us to determine for ourselves. And if our subjective opinion is that a tool gives us back (most often, this is on an emotional level) more than we had to pay to buy it, then the purchase represents value.

One guy thinks $1,000 is not too much to spend for a front-row ticket to a Stones concert. Another guy thinks $10 is too much to spend for the same thing. So a $500 front-row ticket represents value to one and insanity to the other.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> I m not sure I agree. There are also those who *accept* what they don t know about.
> 
> - Ocelot


If you accept what you don't know at least you have a chance to learn first hand. You you reject you just remain ignorant.


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## MAS520 (Jan 18, 2017)

$270 for a router table extension. That about covers it.


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## jacksdvds (Jun 13, 2015)

What we most often forget is we are working with wood, a living breathing material, not a stable thing like a diamond. What good is an accurate cut to .0001 if the material is going to change 10 times as much. The comment about an accurate hole sums it up perfectly. Results! not how you got there. The same argument is valid when talking about highend gouges and chisels also. (Scrapers vs cutters). The hand that guides the tool is much more valuable and important that the tool it holds.


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## UpstateNYdude (Dec 20, 2012)

> What we most often forget is we are working with wood, a living breathing material, not a stable thing like a diamond. What good is an accurate cut to .0001 if the material is going to change 10 times as much. The comment about an accurate hole sums it up perfectly. Results! not how you got there. The same argument is valid when talking about highend gouges and chisels also. (Scrapers vs cutters). The hand that guides the tool is much more valuable and important that the tool it holds.
> 
> - Jack Lewis


That may be the case, but then why doesn't everyone just buy HF tools if accuracy isn't that important and it's about the hand guiding it. Probably because people like straight accurate holes and I'd like it to do it consistently not have to wonder if it's going to be off every single time I step up to the tool. Festool has much tighter tolerances and their tools stay that way if not abused.

This is just another thread with people bitching about the price of a tool because they can't afford it or make up some excuse as to why they "Don't want it" or "Would never pay that", well some of us can and do. If you can't that's cool just don't bitch about a price point that has been there since their conception, it's always Festool for power tools and LN and LV for hand tools "My $5 garage sale Stanley does exactly the same thing, once I spent 4 hours restoring it". These have to be the single most annoying threads on this forum, who cares what the other person uses, everyone uses tools to make stuff, isn't that what really matters in the end.


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

This thread is 10 years old and the argument is still alive. :>/

Looking forward to the next 10 years…....

I wonder if Festool prices have gone down any since this thread started…....?


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## ScottM (Jul 10, 2012)

> This thread is 10 years old and the argument is still alive. :>/
> 
> Looking forward to the next 10 years…....
> 
> ...


I doubt it. There was a thread a few days ago giving people notice to buy their tools before the April price hike. So it seems that's an annual event! There was even a Festool ad on the Wood Whisperer site from Festool with the same sales pitc; "get'em before the price goes up"... again….


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## bbasiaga (Dec 8, 2012)

There is another factor to consider as well. The service life of the tools are likely different as well. The motor life in hours, bearing ratings, etc are probably designed for many hours of coninuous use like you would see in a full time production shop. In a home hobby shop you will never reach those hours so a ryobi will do. You can buy 3 Dewalt for the same price, and you will never wear our three dewalts, but some users would.

Same argument with a 5hp saw. If it runs all day long, you will notice a difference. If it doesn't, you will feel like its a waste of money.

In terms of that production shop again, some features are super aids to productivity. The turret stops an the router, fast and super accurate jigs that are pre made. These things can take hours off the production time of a piece, and when it costs you $30 to $100 an hour to run a shop it gets worth it in a hurry.

Festool charges what they charge because it is worth it to their audience. If you dont think it is worth it, you aren't who they are marketing to and you don't have the needs their premium products meet. There is always some enthusiasts that cross over, but festool wasn't created for them.

I just took the plunge on a domino (see what I did there?). So I will see first hand some of the productivity they offer. The other stuff looks nice, but I can justify living without the functionality for the cost. The domino will have a vast effect on my work flow so I am excited to try it out while I get over the cost.

Brian


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## UpstateNYdude (Dec 20, 2012)

> I just took the plunge on a domino (see what I did there?). So I will see first hand some of the productivity they offer. The other stuff looks nice, but I can justify living without the functionality for the cost. The domino will have a vast effect on my work flow so I am excited to try it out while I get over the cost.
> 
> Brian
> 
> - bbasiaga


Did you buy the XL700 or the 500, I believe it's Seneca Tool makes an adapter for the 700 so you can run all the bits that the 500 can with the 700. Out of all the Festool stuff I own the Domino is by far my favorite.

And ScottM I'm pretty sure jbay was kidding when he asked if the prices went down, Festool has had a standard price hike of 10% or whatever it is every year since forever I believe.


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## bbasiaga (Dec 8, 2012)

I got the 500. The 700 was quite a bit more and virtually everything I do in in 3/4", so I didn't need the bigger cutters. I did see the Seneca kit but decided to save the cash.


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## UpstateNYdude (Dec 20, 2012)

> I got the 500. The 700 was quite a bit more and virtually everything I do in in 3/4", so I didn t need the bigger cutters. I did see the Seneca kit but decided to save the cash.
> 
> - bbasiaga


Hey I hear you I get the in-lieu money from not having health insurance at my work (My wife's is better anyway) and usually splurge on a few tools each year.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Regarding fine German cars, when I lived there, Mercedes were taxis.

Having the Festool name doesn't guarantee its better than much cheaper versions. For example, the local hardwood wholesaler dumped his Kapex because it labored too much dealing with product cuts. He, now, runs a Hitachee and is happy again.

On sanders, I got in on the hundred dollar "get them hooked" sander. I like dust collection. Especially because I am able to run it off my Ridged. I use a twenty foot hose with holes drilled in it and a piece of ABS I can turn to cover the holes or leave them open. The random orbit is shaky though. Still experimenting to make sure it's not me.

That said, I took the plunge and bought a Rotex 125 due here any day now. Yes, it's too much money, but we'll see how it flies. If it does what it's said they do, I'll chalk it up to investment. For example, I went through a scroll saw ever six months. I kept buying more and more expensive units, but they were all trash, until I spent more than twice as much on my first Bosch. Now I've owned three. The others are alive and well with other people. I got rid of them only because I wanted the convenience that came with the newer models. In the end, I got better performance and didn't have down time.

Now, regarding drills, jump to my Panasonic. I trumps my newer Makitas and, of course, my older Dewalt. Still, those others served me fine and I could re-battery them or replace them several times for the price of a Festool. That said, I like the more expensive Panasonic for its weight and general comfort of use. I can't express and opinion on the million dollar Festool version because I don't have one, and don't need to switch.

As to replacing my cabinet saw with a Festool circular saw and guide, no. There is a reason the big boys don't try to make do with Festool for that. Some Festoolers might claim you could, but Shopsmith owners used to do the same. They both had their place, and it was with certain people for certain uses or situations. On the other hand, and in a different application, the Festool would shine.

One of the BIG issues is, if I drop my wormn drive off a ladder, I'm out one hundred thirty or so. Drop the Festool circular saw from a lesser distance and it can be far more painful, in time and cost.

A Festool router cannot boast being better than my Porter Cable 3-1/4 horse. Especially when you have to use a hammer to pound it into your router table lift. Nor can it boast being better than my tiny Colt, sitting atop my carving machine. It would be too heavy and way overkill. However, I suspect it would be a pleasure to run when doing things I normally do with my PC 690 D-handle.

In the end, I do not own just one brand of tools. More than anything that is because no one company does it all, or does it all better than all others.

That's all for now. I have to go deal with another problem. We just bought a Subaru Forester and now there are people at our door demanding we join a cult…..


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

When the brushes set your Festools will be fine.


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## MikeUT (Sep 5, 2014)

Human nature is very predictable. We are all so prone to conform to a team mentality. You see it in sports (Michigan/Ohio State, UNC/Duke, USC/UCLA, BYU/Utah. Kentucky/Louisville). You see it in politics (Republican/Democrat/Libertarian). You see it in electronics (Apple/Samsung/Microsoft). And you definitely see it on tools (Stanley/LV LN, Dewalt/Milwaukee/Makita, Saw Stop/Everything else, and of course FESTOOL/everything else).

It was mentioned before, but the comparison with Festool to Apple is spot on. The product is good overall, they have a few features that the competition doesn't offer, and they are marketed to the point that reverence and awe is expected or demanded. Those that own Festool justify their position by accentuating the pros (precision, dust collection, that beautiful shade of green…) Those not on the team will never shut up about the cons (Price, they aren't ACTUALLY better than the competition, price, and… oh yeah, price.)

I try to be a little more objective and take things on a case by case basis. I understand some Festool stuff but others I don't. Domino is on my wish list, there aren't any real competitors that rival the ease of use or quickness. I get the sanders and dust extractors in some applications like being a contactor doing remodel stuff inside someone's house. For my dusty shop it wouldn't be very compelling. The Kapex is borderline, the ease of use seams cool but I went with a Bosch for their clever Axial-Glide system. The tools I'll never understand are the drills, the routers, and the tracksaws. If you bought one of those products, you were hoodwinked! Why pay more money for an inferior tool?! If you have one of these, you fell victim to a clever marketing scheme. You will probably get defensive and tell me I know nothing and you'll defend your purchase by stating [fill in the blank with generic Festool responses] but those answers only come because you spent way too much money on them and you are too proud to admit a mistake. Look at an objective review and breakdown of the tracksaw to see what I mean (



) This guy isn't a woodworker but does excellent (albeit colorful) breakdowns. He points out some positives in the saw and the design but also points out blaring issues and shows that the saw is actually pretty delicate and is destined for failure with regular use.

In the end, let's all double down on our opinions and keep the argument going!


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## UpstateNYdude (Dec 20, 2012)

> In the end, let's all double down on our opinions and keep the argument going!
> 
> - MikeUT


AMEN BROTHER! CAN I GET A HALLELUJAH!


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

An inferior tool, you're too funny MikeUT. I appreciate your points of view but I like cutting

3 pieces of 3/4 plywood at once with my TS75 and knocking out cabs quickly and efficiently

with my dominos and Walko4 work table. Festools work great in a system and it's not for everyone I get it.

HALLELUJAH!


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## Carloz (Oct 12, 2016)

For me Festool is like an Apple computer. Very refined very high quality. Very expensive for what it is. It is very good for reading lumberjocks forum. But when it comes to doing some real work I prefer a PC.


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## ScottM (Jul 10, 2012)

> For me Festool is like an Apple computer. Very refined very high quality. Very expensive for what it is. It is very good for reading lumberjocks forum. But when it comes to doing some real work I prefer a PC.
> 
> - Carloz


Uh oh, you brought computer brands into the mix. Pretty soon politics will be mentioned and it's all over….


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

As a DIY'er, I doubt I would see the difference between a Festool from a Dewalt, Bosch, Makita or any other well known brand. Maybe a professional using a Festool day in and day out might see a difference and maybe in tool life. The high price may be justified for the pro, but not by the typical DIY'er. Don't get me wrong; If money was no object, I would go for the best of everything, from Ferrari to Festool. Mercedes Benz, BMW and Porsche are expensive because they are great cars, so I guess Festool being expensive must be considered great also. German made products have always been expensive and for a good reason; they are high quality and that reflects a typical German trait of always striving for the best, a trait also shared by the Japanese.


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## Bobmedic (Sep 24, 2010)

> There s nothing Domino can do that my trusty Beadlock jig can t. Been using it for years with plenty of success.
> 
> - slaphitter


Can the beadlock put a 4 mm mortise in a beveled cut? Does the beadlock come in sizes other than 3/8 and 1/2? Can the beadlock cut mortises to fit take down hardware? The Domino can do everything the beadlock can and faster.


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## ssnvet (Jan 10, 2012)

I like tools. I especially like high quality power tools…. Off the top of my head, I have the following brands in my shop…

Powermatic
Jet
Delta
Grizzly
DeWalt
Porter Cable
Milwakee
Bosch
Makita
And some hand-me-down Craftsman, Dremel and B&D stuff.

I buy value and quality….notice which brand is missing?


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

"I buy value and quality….notice which brand is missing?"

Mafell


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## Putttn (Feb 29, 2012)

I really started my woodworking when I acquired Festool system so I didn't have a lot invested in other equipment. I will admit that I like using my Sawstop much more than the TS55 and having to set up for a simple cut. The one thing I do know is that the resale value of Festool is outstanding. I have had some Festool tools I didn't use that much and sold them for almost as much as I paid.


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## jacksdvds (Jun 13, 2015)

How about showing the plan for that tool storage cabinet!


> I like tools. I especially like high quality power tools…. Off the top of my head, I have the following brands in my shop…
> 
> Powermatic
> Jet
> ...


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## oldsailor59 (Mar 22, 2017)

sounds like some of the discussions on a knife making forum. some observations
1) the person behind the tool makes more difference than the tool. 
2) the blade/bit is at least as important as the tool
3) after looking at the Festool site, they make mostly battery powered hand tools. I was an industrial equipment repairman for 40+ years. usually the only one with plug-in tools, who could finish a repair or project without searching high and low for replacement batteries. a battery powered drill always seems to run out of power half way thru the last hole. I kept two sets of drill bits and taps, one for me to use and one to lend.
4) for me money has always been tight. I try to spend where it will do the most good. a $45 corded drill with $55 in Viking or Norseman bits costs $140 less than most basic Festool drill. the DeWalt drill I bought 7 years ago for $45 dollars, still costs $45. I buy tools to use until they die so resale value is meaningless.
5) don't understand how your hand held Festool drill is going to be more accurate than my hand held dewalt
please excuse the rant, too much coffee this morning.


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

Valid points oldsailor59 thanks for your input and valuable experiences.


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

> 5) don t understand how your hand held Festool drill is going to be more accurate than my hand held dewalt
> please excuse the rant, too much coffee this morning.
> 
> - oldsailor59


It's not just about accuracy.
With Festool drills, there is a lot to be said for options. 
You can adapt many different chucks for different applications. If you were to buy a (descent) drill for each application, compared to buying interchangeable chucks, you would probably have to invest just as much.


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## oldsailor59 (Mar 22, 2017)

> It s not just about accuracy.
> With Festool drills, there is a lot to be said for options.
> You can adapt many different chucks for different applications. If you were to buy a (descent) drill for each application, compared to buying interchangeable chucks, you would probably have to invest just as much.
> 
> - jbay


ok, just don't use a hand held drill that much except for tightening screws. I try to do most hole drilling using drill press. enjoy the day


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## jacksdvds (Jun 13, 2015)

Accuracy with a hand held drill. Come on, you are trying to BS an old BSer!


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## oldsailor59 (Mar 22, 2017)

> Accuracy with a hand held drill. Come on, you are trying to BS an old BSer!
> - Jack Lewis


 my MakaSonic F7000 cordless drill with 3 axis gyro-stablized bifurcated inverberators, I can drill perfect holes in granite, titanium, or balsa. production starts this November, so order now. Just 3 easy payments of $1995


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## bigblockyeti (Sep 9, 2013)

I want two easy payments and one that's really hard!


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

> my MakaSonic F7000 cordless drill with 3 axis gyro-stablized bifurcated inverberators, I can drill perfect holes in granite, titanium, or balsa. production starts this November, so order now. Just 3 easy payments of $1995
> 
> - oldsailor59


Add a laser and you got a deal…


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

Nice tools are nice. I bought the Festool sander and it is sweet, better than any of the Porter Cable sanders I've owned. Less vibration, better dust collection, better finish. Can't speak to any others. If I were making a living with tools, I would buy into Festool.


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## reclaimed (Apr 9, 2017)

When it came to getting a track saw I went with Makita. I also have their drills and will get their planer.


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## AHuxley (Apr 22, 2009)

> sounds like some of the discussions on a knife making forum. some observations
> 1) the person behind the tool makes more difference than the tool.
> 2) the blade/bit is at least as important as the tool
> 3) after looking at the Festool site, they make mostly battery powered hand tools. I was an industrial equipment repairman for 40+ years. usually the only one with plug-in tools, who could finish a repair or project without searching high and low for replacement batteries. a battery powered drill always seems to run out of power half way thru the last hole. I kept two sets of drill bits and taps, one for me to use and one to lend.
> ...


3. the majority of their tools are corded and though they do have some battery powered tools with the exception of the drills they make "duplicates" of their cordless tools in corded versions.

5. Some may point out the lack of run-out in the Centrotec system but small amounts of runout are irrelevant in a hand held drill. The distinction can come with ergonomics, their C drills are my favorite cordless drills (though I do have several other cordless platforms) one of the things I like most is with the C drills you can put pressure (one handed) directly in line with the bit, something that does in fact increase accuracy in one hand drilling.

In general: Festool makes excellent tools but they are not cheap but that begs a value discussion. The reality is some people must save for Harbor Freight tools and some could buy everything in the Festool catalog and their wife would likely think the missing money was nothing but a rounding error at the end of the month. While most of us fall in between the amount of disposable income has a very significant impact on how an individual sees the value of something, couple that with for some woodworking is a serious passion while for others it is a minor fancy competing with many others in their lives. The key is there is no moral high ground here, Festool makes great tools, they aren't overpriced or they would not sell, they may however be overpriced for some people but that simply is a subjective evaluation that depends on factors other than the tools themselves. The point being this entire discussion is simply a subjective one.


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

I love the engineering in Festool tools and VW, and BMW, and Porshe and Miele, and Sennheiser, and Electrolux, and Gummi Bears etc. but I do not own any of those products (except some Gummi Bears now and then) because I simply cannot afford them.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

I have a couple Festool sanders and I don't hate them. Good thing, in light of the price I paid for the second. That said, it remains the engineering of Festools isn't always perfect. For example, it's not uncommon to have to have to run the sanders for hours to get them broke in to where they will operate as intended or expected. Many a buyer had to find that out the hard way.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

Fingersleft

You answered you own question in your first post. You don't get it. If you don't get it, you don't get it and that about it.

I know a lot of people "get it". Festool sells a lot of tools all over the world. I know my local Festool dealer in Anchorage and they say they sell quite a bit of festool tools in a small city like Anchorage.

If have a few Festool tools and thee always a pleasure to use. JMHO

BTW I didn't read all the post


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## BandsawJeff (Nov 7, 2017)

I don't own any festool myself but there are a number of companies that make Festool "upgrades".
check out this company-
https://www.senecawoodworking.com/


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

Please always remember the words from Roy Underhill "it's a bad craftsman that blames his tools" with that in mind i buy or test many very good tools and work hard to expose the masses to the tools that i like wither festool cus-d dewalt or another top brand I Know so many people have done well with festrool but i am not in their club i am not rich or cool I am old school and if i need more accuracy ill use a hand tool.


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## MJCD (Nov 28, 2011)

The collective energy wasted on this thread could power Philadelphia…

No one makes another Domino;

Everyone else lagged behind:
-In-tool effective dust collection; 
-An effective track saw - it took 5 years for Bosch & DeWalt to catch ups; and only Mafell has one as accurate 
-An MT/3-type solution. 
-A true cabinet system (their 32mm system, which is the standard in Europe).

Everyone else still lags behind on a systems approach to their tool offering.

Also …, most everyone else makes disposable tools. Long Live Harbor Freight!!!!

Everyone wants to benefit from advances in tool functionality; yet, no one wants to compensate those who truly innovate.

We need to grow-up.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> Please always remember the words from Roy Underhill "it s a bad craftsman that blames his tools" with that in mind i buy or test many very good tools and work hard to expose the masses to the tools that i like wither festool cus-d dewalt or another top brand I Know so many people have done well with festrool but i am not in their club i am not rich or cool I am old school and if i need more accuracy ill use a hand tool.
> 
> - thedude50


I'm not rich I don't have a ton of money and I'm not cool. I don't wear sunglasses. Some of the Festools tools are cool


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

This past summer I was useing my Festool router to route a profile and notches on some counter top in a pharmacy.
A working pharmacy in a hospital.
In the past we would have had to carry the whole dam thing through the hospital out to the loading dock then back for 5 mins of work.
I did it all right there because of good dust collection. I definitely was thinking how cool I looked.My boss the hospital people the pharmacy workers all staring.
I know this is a old thread.
Festool rocks.


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## pontic (Sep 25, 2016)

Tenons? I mostly cut them with a dada blade and sled. Mortice? for production work I have a Grizzly morticer the rest of the time I use a chisel. 
I relieve vibration with padded gloves. I have a few sets of silicone palm incerts the occupational therapy shop made for me at the VA. They work great for even the cheapest of tools, in combating vibration.
Yes Festool is good I will admit that.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

Many of the Festool products have unusual if
not patented accessories. Some of them are
more useful to specialist workers than others.

I heard about an organ maker shop that was
using the Festool drills because of the eccentric
chuck that allows drilling holes and putting screws
into tighter corners than other chucks. Now
finally Bosch offers a similar system, but at 
least 15 years after.

Bosch almost behaves as if they have a gentleman's
agreement not to compete with Festool in the
North American market. In Europe Bosch sells 
all kinds of cool stuff.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Started serious sawdust making about 74. Didn't buy my first Festool until a little over a year ago. Now I get it.

That said, I suspect I'd say the same thing had I invested in a Mirca sander and tied it to a good dust collection system. It'd still be a lot of money.

There were times I bought Harbor Freight tools, because that was all I could afford. When I could afford more, I bought better, except when a friend wanted to borrow the tool.

I doubt I'll swap my Bosch barrel out for a Festool though and I know I won't chase after a Kapex to replace my Bosch miter.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Don't forget:

- Only Bosch made jig saws. Festool didn't pay Bosch to use the design. It waited until the patent ran out.

- FeinTool was the only producer of the Multimaster type toys, until the patents ran out.

- Skillsaw was the only circular saw, until the patent ran out. Years after the patent ran out, Festool made track saws.

Then we could go to drills, miters and so on. In the end, companies copy and innovate.



> Many of the Festool products have unusual if
> not patented accessories. Some of them are
> more useful to specialist workers than others.
> 
> ...


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## ShopCat (Aug 7, 2008)

Okay, just bought my Festool drill to replace my newly dead Dewalt. It accompanied my new Festool sander that came because my Porter 343 died, and seems to have been discontinued. This all started when I gave my son-in-law my old Porter pin nailer, and went to buy a replacement. What I found was hideous. I loved Porter, my first serious tools were Rockwell and Porter, over forty years ago, they worked great with all that heavy Delta iron. But them days is over. What I see now… I am tired of buying low quality crap from lying dsyfunctional executives who milk formerly great brands with cheap labor, trash parts, and zero quality control.

I have several old Sweatheart planes that I found covered in rust in an old barn. They came back to good quality because they could, because the people that made them cared enough to build quality. I'm 67, I figure I've got maybe ten more good years, and then ten more beyond that. I expect the Festools will last that long.

And by the way, all my Festools have been scratch and dent/reconditioned, for much less than list. Both Amazon and Festool sell used, you just have to look.


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## 00dahc (May 12, 2015)

Their tools are not high quality. You've seen it yourself. You can watch an Ave video on Youtube where he tears down their crappy under powered track saw.

I have a couple of their sanders, a couple of their vacs, and a domino with all the accessories. Their domino tool is a game changer though.


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## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

I'm curious how the domino is a game changer?


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## Think0075 (Feb 25, 2019)

Festool is meant for European installers. Dust collection is amazing. I work in cabinet shop and we have quite a bit of festool product. I rarely use it when I am in the shop except for the track saw and domino. However, on the job site, working in $$$ homes. Festool tools hooked up to a vacuum are amazing. Saves me time which equAls $$$. Not necessary but when working inside homes and making a living these tools have there place.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Like others, I've been making sawdust for decades. From that, I have learned several things. One of those things would be, merely that a given company makes several tools well does not mean they make all tools, or other things well.

Consider Bosch, as an example. Their jig saw is a, as it was said, game changer. It's so good, Festool, Milwakee, Dewalt and others copied it. I don't know that you could say Bosch's dishwashers are the best on the market.

With the foregoing in mind, we can consider the Festool line, and how unlikely it is everything they make is the cat's meow. Certainly, my hardwood supplier doesn't think so. He got rid of his Festool miter, because it labored too much cutting stock. However, he's happy with his green Hitachi.

On Festool, sanders and dust collection, I am impressed. However, I give a lot of credit to the paper they sell. THEN there is that sanding a two inch wide board with your five inch disks will reveal that even Festool cannot guarantee all the dust will be caught.

Meanwhile, and still on the matter of sanding, I have to wonder how a Bosch variable speed, ROS would do at the end of my vac and with mesh paper. It might be Festool does well, but so do others, if you don't cheap out on paper.


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## rad457 (Jun 15, 2013)

*Meanwhile, and still on the matter of sanding, I have to wonder how a Bosch variable speed, ROS would do at the end of my vac and with mesh paper. It might be Festool does well, but so do others, if you don't cheap out on paper.*
Festool way above my pay scale, that said when I got a Ridgid 18v ROS I was amazed at the complete absence of dust, without even a Vac? Although still not as clean and dust free as an hand plane.


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## edapp (Jun 27, 2014)

Once I got the domino, it really changed the pace of getting projects out of my shop and I have been pleased with the joint strength/accuracy.

Once I got the sander and vac combo, holy moly I actually dont mind sanding now, and my shop is less dusty, and my hand isnt numb! Love it. Vac is so quiet!

I didnt expect to order anything other than the domino, because to me the domino was the only unique tool in their lineup that could possibly justify its price (although high). But since I got it, I have found that whenever I need a replacement tool… I really want to jump to festool. My makita sander died and I replaced it with the festool and cant believe the difference. night and day. 
Time to replace my router… I have a festool 1400 that is supposed to be delivered today.

It isnt for everyone, and that is why they dont market to everyone. If they thought everyone wanted to, or could justify owning them, they would be for sale at your local home improvement store. I have less time than I would like in the shop already, so to be able to whip out the domino vs setting up a router jig or whatever is worth it to me. Same with the sanding. My projects look and feel better because I take my time sanding now, have no pain in my hands, have less dust in my lungs, and am more efficient. A router with built in dust collection, and high quality depth stops and edge guides with actual adjustment is worth it to me.


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## edapp (Jun 27, 2014)

> Their tools are not high quality. You ve seen it yourself. You can watch an Ave video on Youtube where he tears down their crappy under powered track saw.
> 
> I have a couple of their sanders, a couple of their vacs, and a domino with all the accessories. Their domino tool is a game changer though.
> 
> - Chad


While AVE may not consider it high quality, I wonder if there is a comparable woodworking power tool he DOES consider high quality? Yes I have seen the video, no I dont plan on throwing my makita track saw around like he would lead you to believe everyone does.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Their tools are not high quality. You ve seen it yourself. You can watch an Ave video on Youtube where he tears down their crappy under powered track saw.
> 
> I have a couple of their sanders, a couple of their vacs, and a domino with all the accessories. Their domino tool is a game changer though.
> 
> - Chad


I saw the Ave video and he said some nice things as well about parts of it. The thing I don't get is how it is a $1,000 saw?

Lee Valley has the HK 55 eq saw only for $460. I haven't seen Festool saws claiming to be tough, they are designed to be accurate and as part of a system. You don't trow around precision measuring devises do you?


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## therealSteveN (Oct 29, 2016)

WOW 2007

I still don't own any green tools. I consider a Domi NO every once in a while, but I've decided to wait to see what the HF version looks like


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

I have some festool tools. Never had a problem with them. Among them I have 2 sanders and a dust extractor that's 21 years old now. I have no worries about getting parts ( should I need them) like I do with my Delta tools. I have a local supplier so I have do hands on before purchase. Each to their own, I like my festools.


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## therealSteveN (Oct 29, 2016)

> *Meanwhile, and still on the matter of sanding, I have to wonder how a Bosch variable speed, ROS would do at the end of my vac and with mesh paper. It might be Festool does well, but so do others, if you don't cheap out on paper.*
> Festool way above my pay scale, that said when I got a Ridgid 18v ROS I was amazed at the complete absence of dust, without even a Vac? Although still not as clean and dust free as an hand plane.
> 
> - Andre


I bought a pretty much brand new 1250DEVS for 50 bux off of CL
 The buyer/original owner said he didn't like the vibration, and was going to buy the Rotex. I didn't laugh or anything at the time, just handed him the 50 bux. I had already tried the Rotex 6" and using it my hands went numb halfway up my forearms in around a minute. I was gambling the Bosch couldn't be worse. Don't ya love it when a gamble pays off really well. Not sure what current is, mine is made in Switzerland. I want to say I bought this even before this thread was hatched. 2005 maybe??


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## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

> Their tools are not high quality. You ve seen it yourself. You can watch an Ave video on Youtube where he tears down their crappy under powered track saw.
> 
> I have a couple of their sanders, a couple of their vacs, and a domino with all the accessories. Their domino tool is a game changer though.
> 
> ...


 Some of their tools aren't very tough, but sometimes they fall off the table by accident and can damage easily…


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Their tools are not high quality. You ve seen it yourself. You can watch an Ave video on Youtube where he tears down their crappy under powered track saw.
> 
> I have a couple of their sanders, a couple of their vacs, and a domino with all the accessories. Their domino tool is a game changer though.
> 
> ...


I'm sure that is part of the reason for the systainers.


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## BalsaWood (Mar 25, 2015)

> Once I got the domino, it really changed the pace of getting projects out of my shop and I have been pleased with the joint strength/accuracy.
> 
> Once I got the sander and vac combo, holy moly I actually dont mind sanding now, and my shop is less dusty, and my hand isnt numb! Love it. Vac is so quiet!
> 
> ...


Almost any random orbital sander with a *good* shop vac will collect dust well. I have a Festool vac and sander and while the setup does a great job, I think they are overrated and I only have them cause I got them at a good price. Here are some tests by shop vacs where Hilti and Makita were rated better:
https://www.toolboxbuzz.com/head-to-head/best-dust-extractors-head-to-head/

One thing I did really like was the Festool router which I had a chance to demo. It is too bad the cost for the router is so high compared to other great routers out there. I keep hearing their domino tool is great as well but I never tried one.


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## BalsaWood (Mar 25, 2015)

> *Meanwhile, and still on the matter of sanding, I have to wonder how a Bosch variable speed, ROS would do at the end of my vac and with mesh paper. It might be Festool does well, but so do others, if you don't cheap out on paper.*
> Festool way above my pay scale, that said when I got a Ridgid 18v ROS I was amazed at the complete absence of dust, without even a Vac? Although still not as clean and dust free as an hand plane.
> 
> - Andre


Shop vacs, sanders, and paper have all improved so whatever advantage Festool had with dust collection some time ago has faded away.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

The ONLY time I could imagine using Systainers is going to job sites, or if you have to organize the "shop" to get a car in, or something similar. In a dedicated shop, it makes zero sense. Tools like sanders need to be out where they can be grabbed when needed, without digging around for them.



> Their tools are not high quality. You ve seen it yourself. You can watch an Ave video on Youtube where he tears down their crappy under powered track saw.
> 
> I have a couple of their sanders, a couple of their vacs, and a domino with all the accessories. Their domino tool is a game changer though.
> 
> ...


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

I believe Europeans buy Festool because they respect their tools much more than we do. They depend on their tools for making a living and invest in the best tools to do so. Here in the U.S. , a worker tosses his tools around because they are cheap and easily replaced. He will buy a Festool because he respects his tools and takes care of them. 
Personally I have been guilty of abusing a tool in a fit of anger although I do care for them. I have many expensive precision tools, like Starrett, Mitutoyo, Brown & Sharp, etc. and I treat them like they were expensive paintings. I think European workers treat their tools like paintings also. I don't own any Festools yet, but some day I may spring for one of their less expensive ones, (5" ROS?). To state a Festool is overpriced is not right; it's not right to condemn any tool if you have not personally used one. The same can be said about the Sawstop.

I suspect Fingersleft who posted this 12 years ago has never got it and never will.


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## MarkDavisson (Apr 26, 2009)

Come on, guys. Isn't it about value? Does something that represents value to me necessarily represent value to everyone?

My son wants me to go to a concert with him. I won't name the artist, but suffice it to say both my son and I like her. My son wants us to buy $78 seats. I want us to buy $24 seats - hearing her from the back is worth $24 to me but not to him. Hearing her from the front is worth $78 to him, but not to me.

Which one of us is right?


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

this post has been going for 12 years guys arguing about if festool is worth the money,or they dont get it! if youve used their tools and paid the price you probably "get" it.if you dont and feel they arn't worth it buy cheap black and decker or ryobi.i think festool has been around long enough that people should have it figuered out by now.i have some of their tools and i get it and have got it because i believe in their quality for the money.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

You do know this exists just for the purpose of allowing expression of opinions, including ones you may not want to hear, right?











> this post has been going for 12 years guys arguing about if festool is worth the money,or they dont get it! if youve used their tools and paid the price you probably "get" it.if you dont and feel they arn t worth it buy cheap black and decker or ryobi.i think festool has been around long enough that people should have it figuered out by now.i have some of their tools and i get it and have got it because i believe in their quality for the money.
> 
> - pottz


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Uh, yes?



> Come on, guys. Isn t it about value? Does something that represents value to me necessarily represent value to everyone?
> 
> My son wants me to go to a concert with him. I won t name the artist, but suffice it to say both my son and I like her. My son wants us to buy $78 seats. I want us to buy $24 seats - hearing her from the back is worth $24 to me but not to him. Hearing her from the front is worth $78 to him, but not to me.
> 
> ...


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Doesn't this belong over on the "Things That Will Start a Fight" thread? 

Believe it or not, and based on having lived in Europe, NOPE.



> I believe Europeans buy Festool because they respect their tools much more than we do. They depend on their tools for making a living and invest in the best tools to do so. Here in the U.S. , a worker tosses his tools around because they are cheap and easily replaced. He will buy a Festool because he respects his tools and takes care of them.
> Personally I have been guilty of abusing a tool in a fit of anger although I do care for them. I have many expensive precision tools, like Starrett, Mitutoyo, Brown & Sharp, etc. and I treat them like they were expensive paintings. I think European workers treat their tools like paintings also. I don t own any Festools yet, but some day I may spring for one of their less expensive ones, (5" ROS?). To state a Festool is overpriced is not right; it s not right to condemn any tool if you have not personally used one. The same can be said about the Sawstop.
> 
> I suspect Fingersleft who posted this 12 years ago has never got it and never will.
> ...


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

That's one of those "you suck" envy things. I had my eye on a Bosch like yours for a long time, but splurged and bought the 5" Rotex so my hundred dollar Festool wouldn't get lonely. I don't regret it, now that I've recovered from the cost. That said, toss either in grinder mode and they're going to be spurred broncos. In fine mode, I can run it with my little finger. Suspect the Bosch isn't far from that either.



> *Meanwhile, and still on the matter of sanding, I have to wonder how a Bosch variable speed, ROS would do at the end of my vac and with mesh paper. It might be Festool does well, but so do others, if you don't cheap out on paper.*
> Festool way above my pay scale, that said when I got a Ridgid 18v ROS I was amazed at the complete absence of dust, without even a Vac? Although still not as clean and dust free as an hand plane.
> 
> - Andre
> ...


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## bigblockyeti (Sep 9, 2013)

> Come on, guys. Isn t it about value? Does something that represents value to me necessarily represent value to everyone?
> 
> My son wants me to go to a concert with him. I won t name the artist, but suffice it to say both my son and I like her. My son wants us to buy $78 seats. I want us to buy $24 seats - hearing her from the back is worth $24 to me but not to him. Hearing her from the front is worth $78 to him, but not to me.
> 
> ...


You're right of course. $24 is plenty for concert let the savings earn interest.


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## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

If it was cheap there would be no argument.


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## BalsaWood (Mar 25, 2015)

> this post has been going for 12 years guys arguing about if festool is worth the money,or they dont get it! if youve used their tools and paid the price you probably "get" it.if you dont and feel they arn t worth it buy cheap black and decker or ryobi.i think festool has been around long enough that people should have it figuered out by now.i have some of their tools and i get it and have got it because i believe in their quality for the money.
> 
> - pottz


There are brands that fall in between such as Ridgid, Porter Cable, etc…. It also depends on the tool. I think Bosch sanders for example are just as good or better and likewise with their jigsaws. I'm happy with the Festool sander and vac I have but I'd be just as happy with what Bosch offers these days and at a cheaper price. Makita and Dewalt also make really good products but that again depends on the tool. In general, Festool has some really nice tools and then they also have some that are not so great.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> You do know this exists just for the purpose of allowing expression of opinions, including ones you may not want to hear, right?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


wow really kelly,i didn't know that! and i just expressed mine,thanks.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

As I suspected


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> As I suspected
> 
> - Kelly


and just what did you suspect kelly,that i would give my opinion.are you being a little bit of a hypocrite in not liking mine also.maybe practice what you preach! i think were all allowed to give our opinions here,sorry if you didn't like mine.have a good night.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

As it stands now unless I get really sick and the medical community strip me from everything I have I'll be leaving some money behind. Why not spend some on Festool?


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> You do know this exists just for the purpose of allowing expression of opinions, including ones you may not want to hear, right?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## JerryMaldonato (Jul 7, 2017)

Geez you guys love to argue! Next it will be about sawstop or something.


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## therealSteveN (Oct 29, 2016)

I was in an Irish pub one night, and a debate broke out. A lot of folks may have called it a fistfight that turned into a riot. They called it a debate. After several of them broke several of the others noses they agreed not to agree. It was fun to watch.

I think if everyone was in the same room, and drinking a lot of brews, this may well be called a debate.


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## JerryMaldonato (Jul 7, 2017)

> I was in an Irish pub one night, and a debate broke out. A lot of folks may have called it a fistfight that turned into a riot. They called it a debate. After several of them broke several of the others noses they agreed not to agree. It was fun to watch.
> 
> I think if everyone was in the same room, and drinking a lot of brews, this may well be called a debate.
> 
> - therealSteveN


Oh my gosh you are so right!!!


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Thanks, Potz, for adding a bit more humor to my day.

That aside, as you said, twelve years have passed. Just as EVERY other jig saw maker, including Festool, copied Bosch, other companies jumped on the dust collection wagon. As such, and just on that issue alone, things have changed enough with regard to Festool and its competition, there is much more to be considered, when considering tool investments.

One more example of changes would be anecdotal information, such as I pointed out above, about the hardwood supplier who switched from a Festool miter, because it labored too much cutting wood.

If a Festool miter labors cutting 4/4 maple, walnut, teak and so on, but another doesn't, the Festool is not the best choice for everyone. That may apply even if it's an occasional thing.

As to accuracy, no one has shown us a proof a Festool miter is more accurate than a Hitachi, Bosch or other. For that matter, my first miter was a Delta, about forty years ago. It's adjustments were so simple and dead on, I made picture frame quality miters that, certainly, rivaled anything Festools miter could produce. After all, you can only get so close on a joint.

Many talk in vague terms of quality, but, often, without comparing the quality of other top line manufacturers, including those Festool copied from.

Of my two Festool sanders, I like the little, one hundred dollar special enough, but the only thing that sold me on it over my PC variable speed ROS was the sandpaper and dust collection holes. That made it a bit short of being possible to claim perfect dust collection, with the exception I noted about, for example, sanding a two inch wide pieces of wood with a five or six inch Festool, which left a lot of dust uncollected.

Obviously, the Festool is no more magic, with regard to dust collection on small pieces, than my table saw, with its significant over-arm and cabinet collection. It's pretty hard to overcome what's being thrown off a spinning disk, unless there is something under it to give it the advantage it needs.

Any, back to Fords and Chevies [and the occassional Dodge]


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## Mike_in_STL (Dec 8, 2016)

> Geez you guys love to argue! Next it will be about sawstop or something.
> 
> - JerryMaldonato


Festool bought SawStop, well more like the umbrella company that owns Festool bought SawStop - I bought a Laguna Platinum Dovetail Saw
https://www.finewoodworking.com/2017/06/26/festool-buys-sawstop


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

No it wont





> Geez you guys love to argue! Next it will be about sawstop or something.
> 
> - JerryMaldonato


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> The ONLY time I could imagine using Systainers is going to job sites, or if you have to organize the "shop" to get a car in, or something similar. In a dedicated shop, it makes zero sense. Tools like sanders need to be out where they can be grabbed when needed, without digging around for them.
> 
> Their tools are not high quality. You ve seen it yourself. You can watch an Ave video on Youtube where he tears down their crappy under powered track saw.
> 
> ...


I use them all the time, my sander is in its box and on top is a systainer with all the sand paper. it is a turn of a knob to open the bottom to get the sander then a turn to open the top, no digging required. I even bought a systainer for my belt sander.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

My sanders are, generally, at arms length away, because they are used nearly every day.

Too, I have far too much sandpaper to store in a little Systainer. One day I'll take a day off an build about fourteen sliding drawers to store the 60 through 4,000 grit sheets, the roles for the Flatmaster, the boxes for Festools and other sanders that use disks, the specialty paper holders (e.g., dowels with slits in the ends and contour holders). The belt, pad and disk sanders will still stay out.

To me, it's a bit like why I don't own a Shopsmith. Turning a knob, lifting off two boxes…..

In the end, my two Sytainers will remain in the attic storage. A shame. They are pretty.


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

> In the end, my two Sytainers will remain in the attic storage. A shame. They are pretty.
> 
> - Kelly


For one of mine, I sold the systainer…helped defer the cost of the tool. Most other brands just get tossed.


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## LeeRoyMan (Feb 23, 2019)

Little story for you,

The other day I started a project. 
I got out my woodpecker square, drew all the lines.
Went over to my sawstop, set my Incra fence to the correct measurement.
Used my wixey gauge to set the angle, went on to make all my cuts. 
Got out my Kapex to cut all the trim. 
Built my project using my grex nailer and ended up sanding with my Rotex sander. 
Then of course I put on the finish with my AAA aireless with air assist.
Got my project to the job and it didn't fit. Took it over to my craftsman table saw cut it to the right size. Nailed my pieces back on with my HF nailer, gave it some putty and sanded it with my rigid ros. Gave it a few coats with a can of rattle can lacquer. Finsihed and presented to client. Beautiful.

Moral of the story?
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

Nope!

Do it right the first time.


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## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

> Little story for you,
> 
> The other day I started a project.
> I got out my woodpecker square, drew all the lines.
> ...


Well… Don't leave us hanging… What brand of pencil..

I hate incomplete stories…


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## LeeRoyMan (Feb 23, 2019)

> Well… Don t leave us hanging… What brand of pencil..
> 
> I hate incomplete stories…
> 
> - JackDuren


Do it right the first time…...what else?


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## bigblockyeti (Sep 9, 2013)

> For one of mine, I sold the systainer…helped defer the cost of the tool. Most other brands just get tossed.
> 
> - Fred Hargis


My only Festool is the $99 sander deal that ran a couple years ago with the "special edition" dark systainer. After I got mine I was folks advertising them for $200-$250 and more than a couple empty systainers for $100 by themselves.


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## WoodenDreams (Aug 23, 2018)

If you have a large tool budget, great. But did you get them for bragging rights or because you needed what Festool has to offer. It boils down to a personal decision.

I'm on the frugal side. I don't need the high priced tools to do the same job. If it takes a little longer to do the same job, I'm alright with that. Example; My track saw is a 1×4 straight board, my Festool plunger (don't have) is a drill press or the router table. Sure, some tools make things easier.

My customers will just have to wait a extra day or two. With a waiting list of customers, they're already waiting over three months for me to start they're projects. Need it done quicker, then I'm not doing it. For me, it's workmanship that matters, not if you have high priced tools.

Don't need a $50,000+ vehicle or tool. As far as using vehicles to compare to tools, we have two 1997 Cadillac DeVille D'Elegance. only paid $2800 each, Clean looking, Smooth riding, reliable for any road trip, Pickup is a 1974 Ford F100. No car payments, and insurance premiums are cheap. let someone else pay the depreciation. I like being frugal and reliable.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> My sanders are, generally, at arms length away, because they are used nearly every day.
> 
> Too, I have far too much sandpaper to store in a little Systainer. One day I ll take a day off an build about fourteen sliding drawers to store the 60 through 4,000 grit sheets, the roles for the Flatmaster, the boxes for Festools and other sanders that use disks, the specialty paper holders (e.g., dowels with slits in the ends and contour holders). The belt, pad and disk sanders will still stay out.
> 
> ...


it's almost like we have different needs.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Naw. Gotta be something else. Time to brainstorm [end smartazz font]


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

I know my budget and don't even bother to look at Festool in my new hobby. In business where production matters and labor costs add up I am all over getting the best tool for the job.


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## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

Why do people care so much about what brand tools I buy or what car I drive. I buy and use what I can afford and works well for me.

If your tools or car work for you that is great and I do not pass judgement. If I like a Festool or a new car or anything else, then it's good for me and I could care less what you think.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

If money was no object, I would buy the best of everything. After all, that's what money is for; but not being a millionaire, I have to stay within a budget. I still try to buy the best I can afford whether I need it or not. To me it's not bragging rights, but a matter of satisfaction in knowing I have something that won't break the first time I use it and will last me a long time.


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## ShopCat (Aug 7, 2008)

Okay, here's an odd observation FWIW. I've been doing some serious tourism travel the last several years. I hooked up with an art school who get me in amazing places - back libraries in Oxford, remote monasteries in Czech lands, active gypsy cave dwellings in Spain. I've seen old libraries in Austria with enough Carpathian Walnut shelving they could fund the whole EU for a couple of years just selling it to us.

The whole European crafts employment industry is different from us (US). First thing I noticed, NO PICKUP TRUCKS. I could not survive without my Tundra. I eat in it, sleep in it, put a insanely expensive ladder rack on it that can hold more than the bed it sits on. But I NEED it because I sometimes work a half day or more drive from my shop. Them foreign types don't live like that. They are regulated out the ax, might as well still have the medieval guild system controlling employment, and if they work on site it's out of small vans. Their tools have to be low dust. They have to be quieter. They don't do disposability on anything like our scale. I've seen old, and I mean century, shops that produce for the tourism trade with equipment that makes my very modest garage shop seem like a vast factory. I have never seen a EU shop with a router table for example.

I am NOT saying they are better craftsmen. Actually, far from it, I think right now American furniture design is way, way, way ahead of anyone else I've seen (Including the Skands, and especially Finland, which has a combined population of greater Cleveland). But they do things different, and some of them make more sense to me than some of the things we do.


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## ShopCat (Aug 7, 2008)

My browser went weird, maybe posting duplicates.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> My browser went weird, maybe posting duplicates.
> 
> - ShopCat


Sounds like you need the new Festool Browser.


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## rad457 (Jun 15, 2013)

*I could not survive without my Tundra*

To get back on quality tool selection topic again, how come you didn't get a Real truck?


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## ShopCat (Aug 7, 2008)

2008, 152,000 miles. Only repair or maint has been oil changes. US made by the way, Texas, unlike Fords.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

and keep in mind many of their countries are the size of our average states, so traveling the equivalent of from The State of Washington to Montana would be to travel to a different country.



> Okay, here s an odd observation FWIW. . . .
> 
> - ShopCat


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## Gentile (Jun 3, 2013)

I wouldn't mind having a Domino machine, they are WAY to expensive. I remember the days when biscuit cutters were propritary, I wonder if someday other companies will come up with one…


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

> My browser went weird, maybe posting duplicates.
> 
> - ShopCat
> Sounds like you need the new Festool Browser.
> ...


Point goes to AG!


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## Mike_in_STL (Dec 8, 2016)

> My browser went weird, maybe posting duplicates.
> 
> - ShopCat
> Sounds like you need the new Festool Browser.
> ...


They'll brand it BrowserStop under the new acquisition of SawStop.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> My browser went weird, maybe posting duplicates.
> 
> - ShopCat
> Sounds like you need the new Festool Browser.
> ...


Hey browse free if you want, but browserStop has saved my bacon many times!


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## cmacnaughton (May 17, 2019)

> They ll brand it BrowserStop under the new acquisition of SawStop.
> 
> - MikeinSTL
> 
> ...


But every time it stops malware, you'll have to spend $100 to replace the antivirus plugin.


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## ShopCat (Aug 7, 2008)

I'm still here by the way. I suspect a Festool browser would be better than Microsoft's. Probably Firefox has already been trojaned by the Chinese. I passed the CISSP in 2004, I know these things.


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## Rayne (Mar 9, 2014)

> I wouldn t mind having a Domino machine, they are WAY to expensive. I remember the days when biscuit cutters were propritary, I wonder if someday other companies will come up with one…
> 
> - Gentile


When the patent runs out, you can bet the Domino will be copied everywhere at a much reduced price but at the expense of what, I wonder? If Bosch, Makita, or even DeWalt makes one, maybe the quality won't be so bad. Harbor Freight will probably get in on it as well and with their onslaught of pretty decent tools lately, I'd be curious of their showing.


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## ShopCat (Aug 7, 2008)

Like I mentioned in a previous post, I've been a travlin man for a while. It is great to talk to independent craftspeople in remote corners. EVERYWHERE (up to and including villages in the mountains of Uzbekistan) they bring up the problem of cheaper Chinese knock-offs.


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## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

Pretty much every argument about FESTOOL is price. I did mention complaints about problems with there tools but those that owned any Festool tools were quick to mention there were no complaints , but when you use these tools in a commercial environment the wear out or wear down is much faster and flaws will be found…


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