# Groz #4 Bench and Block plane kit



## ropedog

the groz are solidly ok, but for the same money you could get a nice old stanley and restore it.


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## dsb1829

Roper, I mention that route in the blog that I linked. Main issue there is that it's a crap shoot on the old stanley's. Some people want real money for rust seized junkers. Some are selling damaged or incompletes. Just don't ever know exactly what will show up at your doorstep. Odds increase with legitimate sellers and a bit of research. Bottom line with a new groz this is about what you are in for.


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## ropedog

i know what you get with a groz and i would rather take the chance. just my 2 cents.


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## lazyfiremaninTN

I got the 2 plane kit for christmas and I have to say that I am VERY pleased with them. They did require a little tuneing, but I would have to with any new plane.


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## motthunter

Groz works and you get what you pay for. If you have time to restore planes and have time to do it.. that's great. I like to work with wood myself and don't get great pleasure restoring tools so my choice is always to get something that works out of the box.


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## ShopCat

This is a endless debate on a number of woodworking sites. I finally reconciled myself to Lie Nielsen/Veritas by promising to pass my whole woodshop on to my kids and grandkids. I also plan to kickoff at 95 so have another 40 years to go. Take the price difference between the LN and the Groz and divide it by 365*40 and it's not so much. Also, try to find an LN used; if you find any let me know because I'm always looking. Even buying new you'll be able to sell it later with very little problem and at max be out a little pocket change.

Think about what it will mean to a woodworking grandkid or great grandkid to have a well maintained family inherited LN in 50 years. And yeah, even with lots of careful rationalizing it's a plunge. But you do survive, and I would not own anything other than an LN low angle adjustable block. It's not a snob thing, the plane is just the top of precision and craftsmanship.


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## dsb1829

Some good discussion here guys.

ShopCat, not really an endless debate. It is more like 3 points of view:
1) Will make anything work, within their budget. Doesn't matter where it is from or how much rust it has, they will get them to work or die trying. I am pretty much in this class due to my budget for tools, but some are here because they enjoy the challenge.
2) Old Iron or new quality only on their bench, not even open to working on new overseas tools. This crew has some old stanley's and a few new planes. Mostly the new high end planes have made their lives easier and they are not ashamed to admit it. Maybe they came from the school of hard knocks (fettling and dealing with POS planes along the way) and can really appreciate a turn-key plane.
3) Top Shelf Only, LN and Veritas thanks this vigilant crew of ww'ers they pave the way by telling the newbies that only these $100ea (at the minimum) are the only tools that will get them working and not give them trouble. Obviously not an entirely untrue point of view. Either never got an old/cheap plane to sing for them or like motthunter just don't consider tool repair part of the hobby and would prefer to spend time with the wood.

These view points are all over the net. There may be another, but I was trying to lump the common views. There has to be some agreement to disagree as you will never bend personal preference. Not a problem, just have to decide where you are. I would love to be a #3, but I don't have an extra $2000 to use setting up shop. Trust me, the more planes I tune, chisels sharpened, machines tuned, the more I realize that I could have actually built a table or hutch in the same amount of time. Gotta pick your battles.


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## depictureboy

Id like to be a number 3 too, but I could get a powered planer and jointer for those prices….then I would maybe only need a smoothing plane to clean things up….


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## ShopCat

I think it might be locality related. I simply don't see many good woodworking tools at estate sales. Colorado's population was much smaller back during the high days of Stanley/Bailey. In the last half of the 20th century towns out here grew 100,000s of TIMES; towns with populations of 3,000 in 1950 have populations of 500,000 now. So, smaller base picked over many times. The old stuff I see is probably not reparable.


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## ChicoWoodnut

I have had good luck finding good user planes and hand saws. I pass over rusted junk because I don't think they are worth the effort. There are too many good hand planes still out there.

A few years back I was looking for a #5 and a #4 to start my collection. I looked at thrift and antique stores for about a year but they were mostly junk or overpriced. Then one day on my own street there was a yard sale. I stopped by and saw a box full of Disston D8's I asked the guy how much for the saws. 2 bucks each. these were perfect saws with the etch still on them. Probably from the 30s. I bought the two best in the box. Then the guy says "Do you like hand planes"? He runs in the house and comes out with a #4 and a #5. $5 each. I took them. No rust, handles perfect, just needed the blade sharpened. Both type 11 planes with the short knob.

Then I was looking for a #7 for about a year. I stopped by an antique shop in Paradise on my way home from a kids soccer game. it was just a whim. There I found a wartime #7 in pristine condition. $45.

Other planes.

Stanley 78 $35
Stanley 9 1/2 $15

I guess my point is that there are still some pretty good deals on old Stanley tools out there. You just need to be patient (and a little lucky).

I am about to give up on finding a shoulder plane. I am still dreaming about coming accross an old Spiers infill at a garage sale but I am about at the point where i am going to buy an LN or Veritas.


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## dsb1829

Yep, deals to be found on old Stanley planes. I have a few of them in my collection now too. I am not a fan of scouring antique stores or yard sales, so I pay a bit more to get them off e-bay.

Scott, nice website.

Let's get back on topic, might be more helpful to people actually looking for advice on the Groz planes…


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## boboswin

I did a review on these planes several months ago .
I trust this information will help with understanding just what is available at the entry level.

Cheers 
Bob


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## dsb1829

Nice write-up Bob. Maybe I missed it, but did yours require clean up on the throat or flattening of the soles?


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## dsb1829

Additional comment:
I went ahead and cleaned up the stock chip breaker (added a back bevel so it sit tighter on the iron, chips were stuffing under it). I set the breaker .045" back from the blade edge. I flattened the back of the iron, and sharpened the iron to a 6000 grit at 26 degrees bevel (about what it came in at from woodcraft). Lastly I tightened up the mouth by moving the frog up.

End result, even with the stock blade and breaker I can pull full width pine shavings at under .003" and walnut shavings just over .003" (measured with mitituyo digitals). That is better than I could get with the Hock blade, but arguably the mouth width is most likely the difference there.

So basically I have about 2-3 hours into each of the Groz planes tuning and tinkering. It would go faster the next time around, but I am pretty green on fettling and sharpening. Obviously this isn't the best use of time for a new woodworker, unless they want to learn this skill. In the end both planes perform very well. I would like it if the throat of the block plane closed a little tighter, but you can't win them all.


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## tpobrienjr

I have a set of Groz machinist squares, and I like them. But then they have no moving parts, unlike a plane.

One beef I have is that some online sellers and some catalogs call the brand Groz with an o-umlaut (Anglicized as Groez, maybe). That gives the false impression that the tools are made in Switzerland, Germany, Austria, etc.

The tools are made in India by a good company with high standards. It's not really necessary to give a false impression.


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## steveosshop

I am in the #1 group. I am there for both reason tho. My budget for tools is low, but I also enjoy the hunt for the old hand tools and the challenge of getting them back into that like new condition. One thing I have found tho is that if you really take your time and look around, I.E. every yard sale/auction/flea market you can stop at, you can find some good deals. Today I was able to buy a brand new, still in box, 7" metal vise with anvil area. Its not a woodworking tool, I know, but it will be useful in the shop none the less. And the best part was it only cost me $2. Period. You cant go wrong there.


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## grumpycarp

I foolishly bought a Groz (Made in India) piece of (insert your favorite scatological analog here) bench vise. I will NEVER EVER willingly buy any more of their "product". The casting was an egregious P.O.S. I took photos. Their "product" is left behind feeding cattle. My dog leaves better quality in tightly coiled piles on the neighbors lawn.

Buy an American/English made Stanley, new or used. At the very least, the money stays in the country. If you have the dosh, get a LN or Veritas and don't look back (or on your shoe) . . .


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## dsb1829

I just wanted to post a follow up on these planes. I have passed them along to another entry level woodworker. During my ownership these planes never gave me any grief. I actually prefer that stupid cheap block plane to the Lie-Nielsen that I replaced it with (I know blasphemy round the internet boards). Upon selling them I did one last sharpening and honing. I noticed that the iron and chip breaker were both starting to rust despite being oiled, so I am guessing a cheap grade of steel or poor surface treatment.

In the end I will continue to recommend these to newbie woodworkers who are willing to put in a little bit of tuning time. My stanley and LN planes are nicer and give better results, but in all honesty all of these planes have all ended up 2-4 times the cost of this Groz kit by the time I had Hock blades and chip breakers in them. The stanley's have also required the same level of tuning as the Groz.


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## nvinson

Nothing wrong with this tool that a new plane would no fix…I tried 1 IMO Junk is Junk'


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## wood_wench

For what little bit of hand planing I actually do - the threesome of Groz planes I bought on sale at my local woodcrafters for less than $100 work fine. I will confess that it took several evenings to tune up the no 7 jointer and the jack and smoothing plane made by Groz. I even went so far as to remake one of the wooden knobs on the Jack - the original just did not fit properly and no "fine tuning" was going to make it fit. In contrast - I also own the Bridge City HP-6 Mini Multi plane with about 80% of the profiles that come with it - a piece of art to see and use. I highly recommend the HP-6, I almost use it exclusively now rather than one of the 4 routers I own for shaping the edges of my projects. While the Groz planes are not the "joy" to use that my Bridge City is, less than $100 vs $1,600 investment - the Groz do what I need for them to do. A guy I was dating (wood_wench is a female user name) enjoyed poking fun at my Groz handplanes, he was what you would call a tool snob who only bought the best of the best. The difference is - I actually use the Groz to do woodworking - I don't think his Lie-Nielsen's have ever actually seen a piece of wood. Bottom line - I spend money on the tool that will get the job done - whether it cost $20 or $2,000. I would prefer to spend my "big" money on wood to make things out of, not collecting tools that I might only use a handful of times.


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## dsb1829

Wood_wench, thanks for the comments. I think your observations are very true. It is often amusing to what lengths people go to just to get an old Bailey working yet they shun these imports for requiring a similar attention to tuning. Any plane is capable of being junk or good depending on how the user tunes it.


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## JerBear

dsb1829 - Thanks for posting your thoughts and observations on the Groz planes. Appreciated.

wood_wench - Thanks for sharing your experiences also, glad to hear that you are right in there tuning things up on the Groz planes and not letting them gather dust (err, maybe that's wood shavings) just because they need a little work.

Tuning up a tool, to be discerned from something that should be thrown out (or at least retired), can be very satisfying. It doesn't really matter if the tool is new or old, but having the judgment to recognize that with a little bit of work, the tool can still perform the job it was intended to do. I liken it to the movie Seabiscuit where the horse trainer says "You don't throw a whole life away just because it's banged up a little." I kinda view tools the same way.


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## affyx

the set is $35 at woodcraft now - didn't have in stock locally so i bought through their site… "Hardwood handle and knob have a hand rubbed finish" per the site.

just came in the mail - first impression is if they were hand rubbed then they were hand rubbed by a gorilla wielding a dull chainsaw

they are soaking in wd40, should be an interesting weekend degreasing and tuning… and maybe making new handles


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