# Wagon vise or just a leg vise on a Roubo Bench - Thoughts?



## Jeepin85CJ7 (Jun 20, 2014)

So I have acquired all of the lumber necessary for my bench build - I have personally milled and dried all of the lumber, so i am ready to start but the vise purchase is holding me back and the time required so far. My plans are to buy the Benchrafted leg vise and possibly the wagon vise.

What I was wondering is for all of those who have installed the vises on their bench builds, whether the wagon vise gets used enough. I don't plan on planing boards by hand to thickness, however I think it would come in handy with assistance holding projects for power tools.

After a lot of research and debating, I have heard quite a few people on various forums and podcasts mention how they would simply only install the leg vise if they were doing it over.

What are your thoughts on this. I just don't want to build the bench and then years down the road install a wagon vise.

Thanks for the help.


----------



## RonAylor1760 (Aug 17, 2016)

I went though the trouble of adding a wagon vise to my bench … I hardly use it! Paul Sellers has a great blog introducing his Vice/Clamp System ... check it out! I have an antique door clamp that I am now using like he uses the aluminum clamp. Perhaps with this approach all you need is the leg vice (??)


----------



## bbasiaga (Dec 8, 2012)

I like having a vice on the end of my bench to clamp things between dogs. Like a wagon vice but mine is really and end vice with a pop up dog so I can use it to surface clamp. Mine was made from pipe clamps so it was cheap and easy. You could consider that route if you don't want to spend big bucks on a premade wagon you might not use.

Brian


----------



## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

I don't own a leg vise so this is just my thoughts. I love the way they look. Everything about a leg vise says woodworking and for years I wanted one mostly for that reason. But after seeing the viseless holding devices on The Woodwright's Shop and hearing arguments against leg vise by the guys at Fine Woodworking, I don't see myself ever having one.


----------



## danwolfgang (Mar 10, 2016)

I finished my wagon vise not long ago (http://lumberjocks.com/danwolfgang/blog/101522), but have absolutely loved it. Combined with a hand screw, it's proven extremely versatile to hold anything I've been working on. I have yet to finish my leg vise but am really glad I added the wagon vise.


----------



## Quikenuff (Jan 8, 2016)

I use my wagon vice for all kinds of stuff, sanding, planing, chopping dovetails, routing, any situation where I want to piece held flat against the bench and don't want to or can't use a holdfast. Sometimes it's nice just have a piece not move around on you when you are marking or laying out lines.

You learn to be careful with the amount of pressure you apply, particularly with thin stock, but other than that I find it very convenient.

Quik


----------



## RonAylor1760 (Aug 17, 2016)

> I finished my wagon vise not long ago (http://lumberjocks.com/danwolfgang/blog/101522) , but have absolutely loved it. Combined with a hand screw, it s proven extremely versatile to hold anything I ve been working on. I have yet to finish my leg vise but am really glad I added the wagon vise.
> 
> - Dan Wolfgang


Dan - I took the liberty and fixed your link! Seems you had the comma too close to the link itself. I didn't want such a great looking wagon vise to get missed!


----------



## jmos (Nov 30, 2011)

I've got a leg vise, and my end vise is a twin screw (independent screws/cheap, not Veritas) with dog holes that I can use like a wagon vise. The only time I use the end vise is dovetailing, and even then not all the time. If I was building a new bench I would probably leave the end vise off all together. I find hand planing with a stop much easier than clamping between dogs. At most I'd put on a simple iron vise for the few times I'd use it.

I love the leg vise. Using it, combined with a sliding board jack, I can clamp almost everything. It's great for long and large items, as well as smaller ones.


----------



## Tedstor (Mar 12, 2011)

I use a plain-jane face vise on my workbench, and have rarely wished for anything "better". However, I've considered the Lee Valley "Pipe Vise" if I were to ever add an additional vise or build a new bench.


----------



## Jeepin85CJ7 (Jun 20, 2014)

This is some great information! Thanks a lot for all the help. I think I'll end up with an end vise, I think it just depends on how elaborate it ends up!


----------



## johnstoneb (Jun 14, 2012)

I have both vises and use them both. Put them on during the build. You will want them later.


----------



## bondogaposis (Dec 18, 2011)

I built a Roubo with a leg vise and a wagon vise. I use the wagon vise far more often than the leg vise. I would hate to have a bench that didn't have both though. Building a serious bench is not something that you are going to want to do very often. I would build as features in from the get go, adding this stuff later is a lot harder.


----------



## chiseler (Dec 20, 2015)

I just finished a split top Roubo about 6 months ago with a leg vise and wagon vise (I made the vises myself) and I use the wagon vise the most and I am also a career woodworker , so the bench gets used pretty regularly.they are great for the both the hand tool,and machine woodworker. Since I do both

Hope this helps
Scott


----------



## Jeepin85CJ7 (Jun 20, 2014)

I figured I would need both but I kept tossing it around. I think the biggest part was finishing the bench without the wagon vise and then deciding later down the road that I needed it.

I know that would have been a real pain to install after the whole bench was wrapped up.

Glad I posted this, because I was on the fence.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

Now I'm curious as to the arguments against leg vises on Fine Workworking. How can anyone be against something so simple and utterly capable? Oh, and +1 to an end vise. Vs. a wagon type, it may not be worth the extra effort to do the inset wagon that an end gets you.


----------



## builtinbkyn (Oct 29, 2015)

I think when I build my "fever" bench I'll use a tail vise, which I haven't seen mentioned, though I may have missed it. Seems to offer quite a lot of clamping options vs a wagon vise or even and end vise.


----------



## Iguana (Jun 22, 2011)

I agree with Bondo and Scott - my wagon vise gets used a lot more than the leg vise. But i wouldn't want to give up either.

In terms of construction, the leg vise is easy to add later. A wagon needs to be designed in from the start. My recommendation is to put in the wagon on the initial build and then add the leg vise when time/funds allow.


----------



## cowboyj (Jun 2, 2010)

I finished my bench in 2013, and I incorporated the Benchcraft leg and wagon vises. I would have difficulty deciding which one I use more often. In my opinion, the wagon vise is a much better version of that type of vise than a tail vise. I used tail vises for many years, and I always had problems with them sagging out of alignment with the bench top.

If I had to choose to only have one, I think I would choose the leg vise. However, unless cost is the driving consideration for you, I would suggest adding both of them to your build, since, as others have pointed out, it will be very difficult to add a wagon vise later.


----------



## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

> Now I m curious as to the arguments against leg vises on Fine Workworking. How can anyone be against something so simple and utterly capable? Oh, and +1 to an end vise. Vs. a wagon type, it may not be worth the extra effort to do the inset wagon that an end gets you.
> 
> - Smitty_Cabinetshop


The main one from what I remember is that a leg vise doesn't do anything that other vises don't do, with less fuss. FW guys are very pro twin screw vises.

(Note, not my argument, I don't own a leg vise, just summarizing what I remember from their podcasts. But on the face of it I think they make a good point.)


----------



## chiseler (Dec 20, 2015)

> I think when I build my "fever" bench I ll use a tail vise, which I haven t seen mentioned, though I may have missed it. Seems to offer quite a lot of clamping options vs a wagon vise or even and end vise.
> 
> - builtinbkyn


I have experience with tailvises, and the only advantage they have over the the wagon vise is their ability to hold a wider board perpendicular to the front edge vertically and that's what my tailvise is for. What I can tell you is they have a tendency to sag over time and they don't like to be pounded on. Yet my wagon vise has 10 1/2" of travel so I can hold up to a 10 1/2" board vertically and it is well supported all the way around so it can take more of a beating. Not that I beat on it but you know what I mean


----------



## Texcaster (Oct 26, 2013)

Dogs and a face vise of some sort are fundamental for me. A workbench is about holding options, the more the better. With my trad tail vise, the face vise hardly ever gets a look in but I wouldn't want to be without one.

IF … IF … IF, a tail vise ever sags, it's easy enough to mend. Only a few moving parts to look at.

http://lumberjocks.com/projects/92062

A cupped top can be mistaken for a sagging tail vise. Dressing a cupped top

http://lumberjocks.com/Texcaster/blog/53473

Tail vise holding options

http://lumberjocks.com/Texcaster/blog/43465

more TV options

http://lumberjocks.com/Texcaster/blog/43520


----------



## builtinbkyn (Oct 29, 2015)

This seems like a good solution to prevent sag in a tail vise.

The Traditional Tail Vise

Edit: Tex I see that's exactly what you employed.


----------



## KelleyCrafts (May 17, 2016)

Sorry to derail this a bit Jeep but I'm with Rick on this. I think leg vices are pretty awesome but I don't know if I understand why you need a vice going to the floor like that?? Am I missing something? I don't have a nice bench yet just the Sellers bench. I'll build one at some point though and I'm sure I'll ask these same questions.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

Yeah, 'with less fuss' is a fail for me. The leg vise is one of the easiest installs to do (Benchcrafted hardware notwithstanding). Twin screw takes up way too much of the face of the bench, imho.

Don't need it going all the way to the floor (it doesn't touch the floor) but it's pinned at the bottom and hinges at the rod. Very high clamping power.


----------



## builtinbkyn (Oct 29, 2015)

A leg vise provides much deeper jaws than a bench vise. Coupled with a sliding deadman, you can work on the edge of long, wide boards not much over the height of the bench top. 


> Sorry to derail this a bit Jeep but I m with Rick on this. I think leg vices are pretty awesome but I don t know if I understand why you need a vice going to the floor like that?? Am I missing something? I don t have a nice bench yet just the Sellers bench. I ll build one at some point though and I m sure I ll ask these same questions.
> 
> - ki7hy


----------



## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

Yeah, that ^. By extending the chop all the way down (almost) to the floor and pinning it down there, you can increase clamping depth and still be able to have a long lever arm to provide a lot of clamping force. Also, like Smitty said, it's cheap and simple. And, most importantly, they look freakin' cool ;-)

Take that with a grain of salt, I haven't ever actually had one but I'm putting one on the bench I'm building now.


----------



## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

I wish I put a wagon vice on my bench. I may, one day, retro one in. My end vice, a quick release c-man, racks like a bastard and doesn't open quick enough for my liking when I'm face planning anything. It would be killer for carving as well.

All in all, it depends on how you work. If youre a hand tool guy and do a bunch of face planning a wagon vice would be a great addition. If you don't see your self needing the ability to work the entire face of a board at your bench you may not need a wagon.


----------



## KelleyCrafts (May 17, 2016)

But you can still obviously just use it as a face clamp too so that explains it at least. I'm in the dreaming stages of my bench. Mostly due to time.

I have fought myself over twin screws or leg vice. Also over wagon vs tail vice. If I went with a tail vice it would be a kit so sagging wouldn't be as big a deal, or in theory it wouldn't.


----------



## CL810 (Mar 21, 2010)

I only have one regret about my bench - no wagon vise. I rarely use my end vise except for it having a pop up dog to mimic a wagon vise. Wracking is a PIA. Absolutely would put in a wagon vise if i ever build another bench.

The clamping power of a leg vise is along the top horizontal edge. There is no clamping pressure along the vertical sides except at the top.


----------



## ADN (Sep 20, 2016)

The Fine Woodworking guys are out of their depth on benches, same 2 guys also made a recommendation to not install dog holes, when building a Shaker bench with a vise!

They just aren't really into hand tool woodworking that much and make arguments based on defending their projects….

My bench has a BC crisscross leg vise, 14" wide at the to of the chop and the chop extends to the floor, sliding deadman, a LN tail vise and a Sheldon quick set vise, will soon add a twin screw or cabinet vise also.

Here's the kicker: Now consider the LN tailvise the best tool/devise purchase I've made in years, it has so many uses…

Originally purchased the BC wagon vise, then one day before I built my bench I was able to use a LN bench with a tail vise, put the BC wagon vise on EBay and ordered the LN tail vise….

The BC wagon vise is very good, don't build a bench without som sort of end vise, would use the BC wagon vise or the LN tail either one. The LN is harder to install, but worth the effort…..

Recommend anyone who's thinking about a workbench build watch this video:

http://woodtreks.com/design-build-traditional-woodworking-workbench-tail-shoulder-leg-vises/1651/

Regards,
Andy


----------



## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

Personally I'm not much into hand tool work either. I have hand tools and power tools, I use whatever makes the most sense. Leg vises ooze coolness, scream woodworker and I might like to have one someday for looks but I don't believe they are better.


----------



## ADN (Sep 20, 2016)

Andy:

You built and amazing bench, congrats…..it looks killer!

One comment about the BC crisscross leg vise, I do clamp with the side of my leg vise, it will hold odd items, especially at an angle, but your right most of the clamping force is at the top.

For me vise choice is about ergonomics, and functionality, and if I only had one vise it would be a leg vise…..the only vise that beats it in overall functionality is the cabinet makers face/shoulder vise, like Rob Cosman has on his bench, but the support structure to have one gets in the way, and takes up space….

Regards,
Andy



> I only have one regret about my bench - no wagon vise. I rarely use my end vise except for it having a pop up dog to mimic a wagon vise. Wracking is a PIA. Absolutely would put in a wagon vise if i ever build another bench.
> 
> The clamping power of a leg vise is along the top horizontal edge. There is no clamping pressure along the vertical sides except at the top.
> 
> - CL810


----------



## CL810 (Mar 21, 2010)

Thanks Andy (that sounds weird!)

I'm a big fan of "what works best for you is what is best."

So Jeep, have you figured it out?


----------



## Jeepin85CJ7 (Jun 20, 2014)

I think i have figured it out. This is one of the better posts that i have read in a long time. You guys have given me some great advice. Even before i read all of the comments, i was strongly thinking about buying both vises - and I am leaning towards Benchcrafted. I can't find a bad review of bench crafted vises anywhere and only regrets for not installing them.

CL810 and Chrisstef both officially sold me on buying both vises. One of the main reasons I asked, was because I am really excited about building the bench and wanted to start with a low cost of entry for the vises. I will wait a little long, I keep spending my money on tools and chainsaws so I have to sneak this all past my 'accounting department'. I can't wait to get my final bench built and start using it in my shop.

Hopefully soon everyone will see posts of my new bench, with both vises officially - thanks to your help.

Again, thanks because this was a great help in the process.


----------



## dca (May 1, 2018)

I just went through this process a couple of months ago.

I used battens for a long time and now have a wagon vise. 
No question - wagon vise. There are zero downsides to it (beside cost). You can argue it's unnecessary - but for me it immediately improved my woodworking and made it more enjoyable.

The benchcrafted looks beautiful but note how it's attached.

I use a Moravian workbench and Will Myers has created a wonderfully simple wagon vise that you can make yourself or order some from him (I got an email in April that he had some - not sure if they're still in stock)

In any event it's fairly easy to make yourself, I just made two of them.










If I was going to purchase new I'd look very closely at HNT Gordon's wagon vise (which he calls a tail vise for some reason). It looks gorgeous - the only reason I didn't go this way was because the dog can't be pushed down when not needed unlike Will Myers's wagon vise.

So to me, there are your options - Benchcrafted, Will Myers or HNT. I doubt you'd go wrong with any - but definitely get one - you wont' regret it.


----------



## Bluenote38 (May 3, 2017)

Love my wagon vise. I use it for a lot of general holding. Unlike my front vise I have almost the whole bench length to support/clamp the work and I can access the work easier. I also use it for light relief carving and small routing. I use wood dogs and a couple of brass ones too. works well for assembly and disassembly. I like a wagon vise because it is simple, elegant, and I don't have all the stuff hanging off the end of my bench like an end vise. It's also lighter and cheaper than an end vise.


----------



## PPK (Mar 8, 2016)

> I think when I build my "fever" bench I ll use a tail vise, which I haven t seen mentioned, though I may have missed it. Seems to offer quite a lot of clamping options vs a wagon vise or even and end vise.
> 
> - builtinbkyn


+1 
I've got a wagon vise, and use it occasionally. But wish I had a tail vise sometimes!


----------



## Jeepin85CJ7 (Jun 20, 2014)

Thanks for the additional info - sorry I haven't logged on in a little bit. I am in the middle of my Roubo Bench build and currently have both BenchCrafted Vises here and ready to be installed as soon as I am done!

Thanks again - also I wasn't aware of the Will Myers one - that is pretty slick looking!


----------



## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

I'm gonna go twin screw eventually. I like being able to use it like a moxon and stuff. I've used the leg vise once or twice. I might use it more with a criss cross


----------



## newwoodbutcher (Aug 6, 2010)

I built my Roubo bench a little over a year ago with the Benchcrafted leg and wagon vises. I think I get sort of equal use out of both of them. !i don't get much use however from the Deadman, although it looks cool.







!


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

Nothing more than 'found' leg vise and end vise here. Deadman too, of course. Wouldn't spend the $s on Benchcrafted but I know it's quality and plenty of folks love their stuff. Just to pricey for no unique functionality over an acme screw. I don't mind adjusting a pin once or twice a week (if that).

Don't mean for that to sound snarky - it's not intended - ...


----------



## swdst (May 31, 2015)

This really is a great thread, I've been on the fence about the wagon vise for quite awhile. After reading these comments, looks like ill be retrofitting one on my roubo (glad I never put an end cap on the right side of the bench).


----------



## BlasterStumps (Mar 13, 2017)

If your bench design will allow, this is a great vice:
http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=66819&cat=1,41659
Just need to space your dog holes so they work with it.


----------



## PCDub (Sep 24, 2017)

Does anyone have the article that Will Meyers wrote about his workbench and wagon vise? The Lost Art Press article gives a link to WKFineTools, which is now WKTools and evidently does not still have articles.

I'm interested in the instructions on how to make a simple wagon vise.


----------



## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

Will Myers is transferring his articles on his own site
"Eclectic mechanicals"

When making a (Will Myers) wagon vise, try to get left threaded screw and nuts.
Double entry thread for speed, if possible.

I don't have any of them, does any one use Hovarter end vise?


----------



## Jeepin85CJ7 (Jun 20, 2014)

Well just as a follow up, i finished my Bench in mid December and it is amazing. I did end up installing the Benchcrafted Leg Vise with the Crisscross and the Benchcrafted Wagon vise. I was able to purchase these as i milled the lumber myself and i only had to buy Walnut for the chop - this all saved me so much money. I have just started using the vises over the past week or so and they are amazing. I mainly used power tools, however over the past few years, i have been trying to implement hand tools where i can. This bench is amazing for both. The vises are so useful - i was just using the wagon vise yesterday for holding boards while i cut them with my circular saw. Between the vises and the holdfasts, there aren't any better options - in my opinion. I don't think you have to go benchcrafted all the way, but they are really really nice when you do. I would just agree with the group above that you should have both - you won't regret it in the end.


----------



## MPython (Nov 30, 2018)

EDIT: OOPS! I'm late to the party, as usual. I should have looked at the date to the original post. Sorry.

I use my end vise at least as much as I use the face vise on my bench, probably more. I wouldn't be without it. When I built my bench, the Veritas twin screw vise was all the rage. I put one on my bench as an end vise. Dog holes on the ends of the chop and dog holes along the edges of my bench serve as a tail vise and allow me to clamp boards to the surface of the bench.










I really like the uncluttered simplicity of the BC wagon vise and I have given a lot of thought to retro fitting one to my bench in place of the twin screw vise. But I get a lot of use from the large clamping capacity of the twin screw vice and have decided to keep it.



















The twin screw vise on the end of my bench gives me a lot of clamping options I wouldn't have with a traditional tail vise or a wagon vise. It was a good choice for me. If I were going to do it again, I'd look hard a the Lie Nielsen version of the vise. Think it resolves some of the shortcomings of the Veritas version.


----------

