# Are We/You being responsible?



## KnickKnack (Aug 20, 2008)

For so long I've resisted mentioning this, thinking that someone more knowledgeable than myself would bring it up.
Since they haven't I think it's about time I did.

There are so many beautiful projects posted on LumberJocks, often using exotic woods, ebony for example, yet it's rare to see any mention of whether the woods used are from sustainable sources.
Perhaps everyone here *is* being responsible, and know where that mahogany, ebony, etc etc came from. If so, I wish they'd write it on their project post. My second thought on seeing these projects, after the initial amazement, is always to wonder where the wood came from.

There are many "wood for sale" sites on the internet, mostly in America, offering "Exotic species" (I even saw, horror of horrors, Burmese Blackwood), yet the ones I looked at made no mention of sustainability.

I've been lucky enough to have visited the far east (including Burma), and to Africa, and seen ports and rivers full to bursting point with seemingly endless tree trunks. I've also seen the land where those trees used to grow - often, as we all know, they simply aren't being replanted.

If you know your wood *is* from a sustainable source - trumpet it loudly.
If you know your wood is *not* from a sustainable source - shame on you.
If you don't know where it came from - perhaps it's worth finding out?

Maybe LJs could invent, or use some existing "Sustainable Forestry" picture for people to put on their posts.


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## FatherHooligan (Mar 27, 2008)

Interesting post…I will pay more attention to where the folks I buy wood say it is from, and if they don't I will ask. So far the most exotic wood I've used is maple and I am pretty sure it was from somewhere in North America


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## Nomad62 (Apr 20, 2010)

All the distributors I have spoken with in the Oregon area have stated they only buy from sustainable rated suppliers, with exception to the urban logging groups (of course). Good post, humans have responsibilities.


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## rhett (May 11, 2008)

80% of the solid wood I use is from the state I live in. I find alot of woodworkers think adding exotic wood to their projects will add some sort of extra value to the piece.

If you know how to work the grain, there is no real need to jazz up a project with fancy wood. Besides, local wood is beautiful and speaks of the area it is from.

"Those are nice ebony pegs, too bad they didn't make that joint any tighter"


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## JimDaddyO (Dec 20, 2009)

So far the only thing I have used is local native woods. Actually, the ash I have was growing in my back yard 6 years ago.


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## woodcrafter47 (Nov 24, 2009)

Well most of my wood is local, and I just keep an eye out for power companys cut down and road clearings.
Some of my wood is take from thining my wood lot. Oak Cherry, ash and some hickory and walnut


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## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

Heh, the wood I use comes from the lumber yard, the big box stores or the hardwood outlet. I don't worry about where they get theirs.

I don't waste a moments energy on the "Save the Planet" crowd. The planet isn't going anywhere, it was here long before the human race was and it will be here long after humans are gone.

sustainable source - shame on you.

There is no shame here and I am plenty responsible for myself and my family. LOL


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## Johnny_Yuma (Nov 29, 2009)

"I've been lucky enough to have visited the far east (including Burma), and to Africa, and seen ports and rivers full to bursting point with seemingly endless tree trunks. I've also seen the land where those trees used to grow - often, as we all know, they simply aren't being replanted."

America looked like that once too.


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## miles125 (Jun 8, 2007)

Trees are like the Earth's hair. We humans couldn't give the planet a bad haircut, much less turn it's hair into an usustainable resource. We don't have that power if all human ingenuity set out to do it.


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## FatherHooligan (Mar 27, 2008)

England deforested most of its firests (oak trees) to build its navy, much of S. America is being clearcut for sustance or cash crop farming, much of Africa is being clearcut for charcoal production and sugsistance farming. I've seen the strips of clear cut in British Columbia, and various American states. We DO have the power, it doesn't require ingenuity to clear cut a forest it takes ingenuity to harvest the wood in a sustainable fashion.

Yup the 'Save the Planet' crowd can be irritating at times, and I myself thought much as you did at one point… then I realized yeah the planet will go on but quite possibly with out any humans or more complex creatures on it. We can make this environment unsuitable for human habitation, why would we not want to take care of it?


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## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

I will phone Home Depot right of way and tell them they had better buy their wood from renewable tree sources or else the Lumberjocks will get them! 

Or maybe I will just go there when I need to and purchase what I want. I really couldn't care less where they purchase their lumber as long as it holds, nails, screws and glue….these days that's asking a lot from the box stores I know.

why would we not want to take care of it?

I prefer to live my life without all of the Save the Planet worry. If it makes a few of you fellows feel better you may worry twice as hard about it to make up for my not worrying about it. Enjoy


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## wch (Apr 20, 2010)

The planet may not be going anywhere, but many of the resources sure are. There's a reason it's pretty much impossible to get very useful woods like lignum vitae (ironwood) and Brazilian rosewood. It's the same reason that the lumber available these days is of lower quality than it was just 40 years ago.

I suppose if you're old and selfish, it might make sense to use up everything you can without thinking about the future. But if you have a long life ahead of you, or if you care about what your children and grandchildren will be able to do, then it's another story. Imagine what a nightmare it would be if the only lumber available to them was pine, red oak, and plywood!


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

"If you know your wood is not from a sustainable source - shame on you." Trying to shame a group of people into thinking/doing the way you do grates me the wrong way. There are lots of folks that are very passionate about their responsibility to our planet but they don't wear it on their sleeve or push it on others. They live it. I don't tell people in my church how much I tithe, I don't need to trumpet it. Same thing here.

If you would have stopped your topic *before* reaching--
If you know your wood is from a sustainable source - trumpet it loudly.
If you know your wood is not from a sustainable source - shame on you.
If you don't know where it came from - perhaps it's worth finding out?--

You would have had properly educated a bunch of woodworkers who have not thought about your point without shaming them into any particular action. An educated person usually makes good decisions. A person who is preached too or shamed into action may just get their backs up and not go anywhere near where you want them to go.

Just my two cents.


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## DAWG (Oct 23, 2009)

Thanks Betsy, well said.


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## Porosky (Mar 10, 2009)

As a lumber Co.
All of our lumber is sustainable. 
That is, not illegally harvested or harvested from genetically altered sources. We practice selective harvesting and prepare erosion management plans. We do everything to comply with what sustainable harvesting means and stands for.

*Here's the problem*

For our lumber company to be "certified" sustainable we have to *pay* for the Certified Stamp… That's right organizations like SFI, FSC, Tree Farmer, whatever, have all developed programs where they come in to your company, check you all out and before you get their approval…...You have to PAY and not just a hundred bucks…. $ Thousands $, based on a percentage of your net business.

These certification programs are a special interest rip off, created solely to take advantage of the "Green Movement" and exploit the North American Lumber industry in to shelling out $ Money $

Example The State of West Virginia has some of the most rigid and stern timber harvesting laws in the country. More regulations than any of the Certification programs could come close to implementing. Why would any lumber producer in that state need to sign up and pay out money to be certified sustainable? They already surpass all the program standards. "Well if they want to be part of the Green Movement and be able to stamp their product certified, they will pay". That was the answer I heard right from the representatives mouth.

Heres another example I sell lumber to large distributors. They are certified FSC, SFI. Once a year (all of them) send me a waiver form to sign stating that our lumber is not illegally harvested and sustainable blah blah blah… So I sign it and now, on just my word, they can sell my lumber with (and as) theirs as certified sustainable.
Guess what…. the certification program doesn't care. They are getting paid by the large company…. BIG $

I believe in and run our company in a green, earth friendly way, We practice sustainability. 
However all this certified sustainable bull is just a lot of money making CRAP.

I'll be glad to discuss this issue with anyone.


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## juniorjock (Feb 3, 2008)

I agree with KnickKnack….......

But I agree with Abbott and Betsy too…. and a lot of other posts here.

KnickKnack, I think you had a very good point which could have been a good topic for a thread, but with these LumberJocks, you went about stating your view in the wrong way. No one likes a finger shaking in their face. Including me. ( and by the way, I am very selective about what type lumber I use and where it comes from ).


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

poroskywood, Unfortunately, you have pretty well summed it up:-(( Most big corps are about public image and money; that means advertising like BP is dong now and cutting every corner they can to make a buck. The lip service is we are responsible citizens, the reality is the operation is like the mob; what ever it takes. I have some personal knowledge of these activities, but I will not bore you with the details. Not wood company related, just corp management doing what they do best:-((


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## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

So now we have* "shame on you"* and *"old and selfish"* yeah, that is really going to make others want to listen to your point. Like I said I choose not to worry about the save the planet crap as I have a life to live and enjoy without choosing all of those topics to fill my days with worry. If you find my choice of how to live my life bothersome I would suggest instead of posting like a poor fish (as shown by comments like the two I bolded) you may feel free to worry double to make up for my lack of worrying. The planet is not going anywhere and it does not require you or I to save it, you and I are not that big of a deal 

I am not old, I am not selfish nor am I shamed by comments made on an Internet forum by complete strangers who think they are being some kind of do gooders for trying to force their politically correct bull********************te onto other people.


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## MrsN (Sep 29, 2008)

most of the wood I buy is scraps from someone else. So I figure I am not encoraging bad harvesting practices, just saving pieces from fires and mulch. 
intersting topic, I have never responded well to shame and guilt to make me do anything. Just curious, is there an easy way to find out if a retailer is on some "green" list? I get a number of woodworking supply catalogs, many with lumber or turning blanks, I can't recall seeing any notice of using sustainable resources. Would they all be "bad"? Maybe instead of insulting me and trying to shame me into your way of thinking you could have said something like "these guys have a great selection plus they harvest only sustainable lumber"


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## RWJones (Jul 10, 2010)

Preaching to the wrong crowd! Once the product is in the store, it doesn't matter where it comes from. If we as a group decided not to buy it to make a point, then the lumberyard is still going to sell it to somebody else, at some price. If you want to change the way forests are managed you'll have to start on the other end. Besides I agree with poroskywood, it's all about making a dollar. Thanks, but no thanks. I don't need somebody yelling me "you can't do that"! I think that a majority of this environmental spewage is just a social agenda.


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## spclPatrolGroup (Jun 23, 2010)

I watched a news type show on home depot, on CNBC I think, anyway they said that due to pressure from the outside they have switched to only selling sustainable wood products, and I assume most big box stores have as well.


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## dfdye (Jan 31, 2010)

I try and buy only local hardwood lumber, but since I live in Indiana, this doesn't really limit my selection all that much! 

The recent exception to that was that I bought a big batch of Lyptus as an alternative to Mahogany for a project I was planning (still haven't even started it, sadly). The Lyptus is touted as being sustainable, though there is some controversy as to whether this is actually the case. Still, I was trying to get something that was a good, contentious choice.

As for a non-sustainable option, I know a local dealer who has some enormous mahogany boards that have been sitting in his rafters for a few decades. Though I am certain they came from trees that were cut at the height of non-sustainable logging, these boards are amazing specimens! I am also certain that if I did buy them I would in no way be encouraging him to ever seek to buy boards like this ever again, since he always complains that he can never get anyone to buy them! Still, I have no idea how I could do a 20' long, 18"-24" wide board (with pretty nice grain, I think-I have never looked up close) justice, so I'll just have to oogle every time I drop by the shop.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Sounds like you would have to own a tavern or a big rec room and build a nice bar ) Not sure what my daddy in law's bar was, I suppose mahogany. I really have no idea, It did have a red look to it. Probably made in the late 18 or early 1900's.


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## KnickKnack (Aug 20, 2008)

This post sat here for 212 days without a single comment.
I'm mighty curious as to why, suddenly, the kraken has woken up?

Whilst it was not my intention to offend, I make no apology for my content or tone…

"The only thing necessary for evil to flourish is that good men do nothing"


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## sawblade1 (Feb 11, 2010)

I really don't believe the hype or the whole sustainability issue !!! Trees are a renewable resource cut one down plant one back it'll grow where I believe the hype started was where logging companies were irresponsible in their practice and someone said they need to pay.
well instead of them paying we do by buying certified green Eco- friendly lumber just cause one said they did it the right way we will never know only by what they tell us and I don't believe them much anyway especially coming from the same type of people who were before putting made in U.S.A stickers on Chinese made items. I believe if you have a local saw mill support them they probably get it more local from tree companies etc. and if we want to make sure tree are still around for us and to be responsible plant our own trees then we will know for sure.


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## DAWG (Oct 23, 2009)

Poroskywood you hit the nail on the head. Most of this is driven by money, not someones conscience. I work at a Plant that had to be certified by ISO 9000, which means we pay them big bucks to come once a year and tell us we're doing what we say we're doing. Oh, and instead of buying a $12 calibrated thermometer for our lab we buy a $12 calibrated thermometer and $100 peice of paper that say's it's been calibrated. And all this extra money ends up coming out of our pockets at the consumer level. If you think wood is high now give it ten more years of the way it's going now and see how high it is. Stepping down from soapbox now.


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## miles125 (Jun 8, 2007)

Whats missing in modern environmentalist is any perspective that we humans are a part of nature. The idea that humans don't belong here and shouldn't benefit from the planet's bounty is what's unsustainable.


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## BertFlores58 (May 26, 2010)

MrsN,
We have in common, I use those cut-off, scraps and reclaimed wood. Take a good look on my projects and you will see those nail holes patched with fillers.
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How can you get PHILIPPINE EBONY or KAMAGONG here in my place when there is nowhere to find in the lumberyard and many other stores? But if you just go on those houses being renovated for buildings and some other damaged by typhoon, you can get SOME of these exotic wood.

THINK OF THIS.. IF THERE IS GOOD SUPPLY … THERE IS LESS DEMAND, BECAUSE NOBODY WANTS IT. WHY IS IT THAT PINE ARE USED FOR CRATES AND PALLETS???? BECAUSE IT IS *SUSTAINABLE*..... WRONG… IT IS NOT DEMANDED BY WOODWORKERS.

I think those who should feel guilty are those who just look on the looks of the timber without even knowing how it was made and found. If anyone can give me EBONY right now, I would be very glad to make it as infill plane. Those who do not know how precious it is, he might think it is only a charcoal for heaters then BOOM.. WHAT A WASTE?


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

KnickKnack, Obviously no one noticed it 212 days ago. Once you slip from the front couple three pages, someone has to stumble a cross it.

This thread reminds me of a clear cut I saw when I used to hunt with my brother in law in SW WA. It ran form I-5 nearly to Mt St Helens and from hwy 12 on the north to the Toutle River on the south; that is about 20 miles x 30 miles. That ws before a lot of replanting, just sort of let nature take its course, which it did, but it takes a long time:-(


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## Porosky (Mar 10, 2009)

Hey sawblade1 You are right you will never really know.

*Manufactures*: "We would like to start buying certified wood."

Porosky Lumber: "Ok, providing you with certified wood will cost us thousands of dollars. How much more money will our certified wood be worth to you?"

*Manufactures*: "Well, we can't pay you anymore for it. It's going to be the industry standard however. If you can't provide it for us we'll buy it else where."

Porosky Lumber: "OK, good Luck."

The problem is they can't find it else where. In this recession we have lost nearly 70% of North American hardwood production due to going out of business and shut down. So where are manufactures (All over the world) finding Sustainable wood?

Certification programs are changing their rules to keep the money flowing! Now some organizations are saying certification can start later on in the manufacturing process. This way manufactures in China and where ever (also America, although few and far) can stamp Sustainable Certified on their products directly. The manufacture is claming the wood is certified….

Why would a Manufacture want to stamp Certified Sustainable on their product? Because they can charge more for it. The consumer wants to pay extra for a certified sustainable product. Here please charge us more for a Green Product. *THERE IS NO SUCH THING.* It's all made up to create Money.


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## AaronK (Nov 30, 2008)

wow there are a lot of interesting opinions being voiced on this thread. me (personally), I'm more quiet, small, and slow about how I do things. *rhett* said it best: "local wood is beautiful and speaks of the area it is from." Would Shaker furniture be as loved as it is if it were made from zebrawood? What about a Thos Moser cabinet, or a Maloof rocker? this is much like food, another agricultural product. I believe that people should know how food gets from the farm to their plate. Sure you can buy tomatoes any time of the year, but will they be as good as ones you can buy in midsummer? will those be as good as ones you buy from a local farmer or grow in your backyard?

Likewise: having exotic woods available at literally a click of the mouse is an extreme privilege - and like food, people should know the whole story about how/where it was grown, harvested, shipped, etc. Once you are educated, use your conscience to decide the best way forward. It's not about politics or a social agenda - it's just something each person should confront within themselves, like part of growing up. Make sure you know what you think you know, then act how you feel is the most responsible way.


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## Porosky (Mar 10, 2009)

After thought: What should woodworkers do. I think just Know where your lumber comes from. Support local mills that provide jobs for your neighbors. A small sawmill in Pennsylvania is not killing the rain forest and should not be penalized for those who are.

As far as sustainable wood goes, I think if you are demanding sustainable wood you are asking to pay more for what you are already buying.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

I'm firmly with the tree huggers.
I've just informed my family they are to rinse out the toilet paper and hang it on the clothesline for re-use.
We're doing our part !
What else ?
We need more good ideas.


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

For me i tend to work only with reclaimed lumber mostly for the fact that it comes to me for free being a demolition contractor. So i ask myself the question would i still use it if it didn't come for free … im not sure but i like to think its my miniscule effort to help out environment. I understand all the viewpoints from the posters stating their opinions. But for the longest time i have felt that Americans, as a whole, are greedy and have had a me first mentallity for too long. The generosity shown by some on this site (i just read patron, ellen, and mikes posts about giving and receiveing) shows to me the small percentage of those which can change our times. Im not here to judge the thoughts and mentallity of others in regard to sustainable lumber sources. I believe that small changes in thinking can globally effect those around us.


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## Porosky (Mar 10, 2009)

Jim that reminds me of a bumper sticker. "*If you object to logging try wiping your Ass with plastic*"


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## dbhost (Jul 20, 2009)

I am not the Birkenstock type by a LONG shot, but I do believe in best utilizing resources. The overwhelming majority of my stock comes from "sustainable" or "waste stream" sources. For example. I spend a LOT of time and effort on resawing found wood, particularly storm blow down locally. I get a lot of oak, pecan, mesquite, and southern yellow pine this way. I am also prone to grabbing things like discarded waterbed frames off of the curb on heavy trash day and recycling the lumber, and as much of the hardware as I can. I do not do this to make any political statement, or to protect mother earth or any other such thing. I do this because it makes sense to use what is there instead of paying large sums of cash for pre-processed materials.


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## dmorrison (Jun 20, 2009)

Reminds me of the flight attendant joke. A flight attendant ( or any waitress ) was having a bad day. Serving coffee to a passenger, the passenger asked if the coffee was decaf? The Flight attendants response not really caring that the coffee was regular " do you want it to be decaf?"

Is the wood I'm buying sustainable? The company says yes, How do we really know.

Toyota's are safe and no recall is necessary.

Etc. Etc.

Dave


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## FordMike (Nov 23, 2008)

Spend some time in the third world countries and you'll find out that nobody's clearcutting tropical forests for exotic hardwoods they are cutting trees for livestock, houses, plantations, mining, military bases, pulp wood plantations etc.. I would rather these exotic woods be used thatn burned or cut for pallets. I agree that i would rather use domestic hardwoods, but if you live in beleze mahogany is a local hardwood.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

It is clear that there are the good intentions of the responsible and the actioins of the money grubbers )

Like Greenspan said, the derivative market didn't need regulatioin because responsible people are the market ;-)) ) ) ) stupid old fool ) Brought the world's economy to its knees ;-((


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## dfdye (Jan 31, 2010)

"Support local mills that provide jobs for your neighbors."

Absent any other considerations, this is a great reason to buy local wood!


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## spalted (Mar 20, 2010)

if you want to buy-in to the whole green movement go for it.. but shame on *you* for the guilt trip to others who do not think like you do. Bah!


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## Edward83 (Jun 21, 2010)

Proud to say I'm doing my part in the deforestation of the world. I used to be an eco conscience, litter pickin upper, vegetarian. Sure the ladies loved it. But it's thinking to much inside the box for me. I like to think outside the box as opposed to popular thought. 
A hundred years from now the history books will talk about the great global warming hoax and why the government forces everybody to live in a teepee and share the same bucket of water because all the eco nuts filed a complaint and big brother passed a bill that no one is allowed to use light bulbs. 
I was told that I am not allowed to push my religious views on this website so I don't share the Gospel I preach and I'd like the same respect from you. Keep it to woodworking. That's why we're all here.


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## Kerux (Oct 7, 2007)

I believe God (The Living ONE) is the one that makes 'things' sustainable. Should we be good stewards, yes. Should we be thinking we are great than God and that we could destroy the planet. No.


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## KnickKnack (Aug 20, 2008)

Nearly 1000 views now - my only intention here was an attempt to bring the issue of sustainable wood to the front of peoples' minds, if only for a few seconds - mission accomplished.

>> A hundred years from now the history books will talk about the great global warming hoax…
Deforestation isn't some intellectual conspiracy theory - it's actually happening. One can argue about whether or not it affects global warming etc (which, incidentally, I didn't). But you *can't* argue that once the last Burmese Blackwood tree (which I see on the IUCN Red list of Threatened Species), for example, has been cut down, that there will be no more of them. Maybe that would be OK, maybe it wouldn't - in my opinion it would be a bad thing.
Had we not stopped the trade in ivory, I'm fairly sure that there would be no elephants in the wild today.

>> I was told that I am not allowed to push my religious views on this website so I don't share the Gospel I preach and I'd like the same respect from you. Keep it to woodworking.
With the greatest respect, if discussing the source of the basic raw material used in woodworking isn't about woodworking, then I don't know what is.

>> Should we be thinking we are great than God and that we could destroy the planet. No.
I don't wish to get into any kind of religious debate - as was pointed out, LJ isn't the place for that. But it seems to me that man *is* quite capable of destroying the planet in any number of ways, both subtle (and argueable - global warming, desertification, super-bugs etc), and unsubtle (nuclear war etc)

>> Is the wood I'm buying sustainable? The company says yes, How do we really know.
We don't really know. Unless you're a zealot (which we have enough of in the world already), "due dilligence" is, imho, enough. I thought AaronK said it beautifully, and in the kind if non-contentious way of which I'm not capable.

>> if you want to buy-in to the whole green movement go for it.. but shame on you for the guilt trip to others who do not think like you do. Bah!
My "shame on you" comment seems to have riled a number of people. I thought long and hard about that line before I wrote it, and I've thought long and hard about it since.
But still that's how I feel.
If I've made a single person feel guilty about their use of unsustainable wood - excellent - by definition you only feel guilty when you do things that you know aren't right.

>> I've just informed my family they are to rinse out the toilet paper and hang it on the clothesline for re-use.
>> Jim that reminds me of a bumper sticker. "If you object to logging try wiping your Ass with plastic"
There's the bidet solution…

>> Once the product is in the store, it doesn't matter where it comes from. If we as a group decided not to buy it to make a point, then the lumberyard is still going to sell it to somebody else, at some price
I don't agree. See spclPatrolGroup's comment.

>> Proud to say I'm doing my part in the deforestation of the world
"No comment."


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## AaronK (Nov 30, 2008)

progress has never come through complacency


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## Gator (May 2, 2008)

Have you heard the one about the chicken and the cell phone??

Lighten up people.. lets just be responsible.. if you have 50 bdft of blood wood, dont mill it from 8/4 to 1/4 to make a book shelf.. use exotic woods responsibly. It is just like eating protected animals.. you need to make soup from the carcas.. don't just throw it to the dogs…

Now that aught to get another 493 soap boxes dusted off and put back into action…


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## jackass (Mar 26, 2008)

*Hi Knickknack,
I couldn't agree more!!! You have the right attitude!!! There should be more of this, conservation!!! We all, except for a very few, want to leave a planet in good condition for our children. Anyone who doesn't agree has their head in the sand.
Jack *


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

If the environmental movement wouldn't turn so many people off they would get a lot more help but some of the things that they are up to is just plain radical. I believe that God created this earth and wants us to be good stewards of it and I also believe that God is able to look after it. Man cannot destroy this planet without it being God's will. The people in this world who run the show have made it so difficult for the average person to make a living it's getting harder and harder just trying to give your family what they need without being able to worry about anything else. It's a sad situation.

Now, back to woodworking, I am fixing to get going to work on my shop for the whole weekend and I'm not going to think about anything but my shop.


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## Porosky (Mar 10, 2009)

OK, When you start using a Bidet I'll…... still be using paper. I'll bet a hundred that there is as many Lumberjocks using unsustainable, illegally harvested exotic wood as there are Americans using Bidets! Read FordMike post #39. Anyone out there ever use a piece of Burmese Blackwood?...... Crickets….crickets…crickets

Of coarse we should leave the planet in beautiful condition for our children. We are talking about using sustainable wood and what that means.

KnickKnack said

>>If you know your wood is not from a sustainable source - shame on you.
>>If you don't know where it came from - perhaps it's worth finding out?

My point is… You don't Know. You can't Know. There is no such thing. Sustainable is a word made up for the timber and lumber industry by special interest and big business to create money for them by adding value to something thats called sustainable.

My soapbox is made from North American Hardwoods harvested and processed by my friends and neighbors.


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

Its not that I dont use exotic woods (albeit I refrain from it) but it does bother me when a person uses an exotic wood whos skill level rides at 3 out of ten…..............what a waste of good wood.

To ease my guilt I plant trees, hundreds, if not thousands. I clone them, graft them, transplant them, grow them from seed…...............


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## Edward83 (Jun 21, 2010)

I hope you understand that my comment was merely sarcastic, mostly. I do think discussing the source of wood is a good topic of woodworking, inducing guilt by shaming people that have to support their families, not so much. But sustainability and "trumpeting it loudly if you do", or "hiding it in quiet shame" is not discussing the source, it is pushing an agenda. Because people feel guilty doesn't necaserrily mean that they are doing something that they know isn't right. Nor is their responding to you in such a way. I am still an eco conscience person, I ride a bike, I grow vegetables, I've planted trees. And as kerux had said I do believe in being a good steward to the planet. But I don't believe in shaming someone for supporting their family or for working out their passion.


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## Gator (May 2, 2008)

Well said Jorge..

I guess if I have to show my "skill" card at the lumber store, I will be building everything out of popsicle sticks going forward… hmmm.. guess I should have never taken up this "hobby" as it should be left to those who were born masters of the craft….

Sorry.. I just had to poke some more .."FUN" .. into this as it is getting … old..

If everyone does their best in "their" mind to look out for our childrens future.. that is all that can be asked… 
Like it has been said so many times over.. be responsible .. but .. do not be so critical of the people who in the next posted subject you are all calling .. "family & friends" .. we are all the same, in so many different ways… hey.. I should be working for Hallmark… 
Anyway.. I just don't have time for this anymore.. I have to get back to downlaoding my pirated copies of Shopnotes..

Gator


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## KnickKnack (Aug 20, 2008)

>> Anyone out there ever use a piece of Burmese Blackwood?
This was, of course, just an example.
But, in fact, yes, there's at least one project that mentions use of it (google finds it, but the site "search" doesn't, I have no idea why)

>> My point is… You don't Know. You can't Know. There is no such thing. Sustainable is a word made up for the timber and lumber industry by special interest and big business to create money for them by adding value to something thats called sustainable.
I disagree, kindof.
A given source of wood is either "sustainable" or it isn't.
Perhaps the whole concept *has* been co-opted by big business, big money, etc etc, but that doesn't change the fact that, once you've felled the last tree of that species it's gone forever.

>> Read FordMike post #39
>> Spend some time in the third world countries and you'll find out that nobody's clearcutting tropical forests for exotic hardwoods they are cutting trees for livestock, houses, plantations, mining, military bases, pulp wood plantations etc.. 
Some is done for that, yes, but a lot isn't.
Visit the craft market at Brikama in The Gambia - it's stuffed from bottom to top with ebony carvings. Ditto in Ghana. Ditto in Kenya. All three of these countries have nearly run out of ebony trees. The trees stacked up in Myanmar (Burma) were/are cut down to sell for profit because wordworkers around the globe want to use it, and are prepared to pay handsomely for it.

>> keep coming back to see when the flame war is going to go off
There isn't, imho, a flame war going on here. Different people are making different points from different perspectives. I've learnt some things here in this thread, and maybe some other people have too.

>>As for sustainability I don't worry about it, the market place takes care of this for me. As wood from non sustainable sources becomes more scarce the price goes up and given time the price becomes so high that no one can afford them, people stop buying it, or switch to a different wood and the unsustainable wood becomes available again with time.
This would be true *except* for the fact that the price will *never* become so high that no-one can afford it - there are a lot of rich people in the world, and the very fact that it's "the last piece" will make it *even more* desirable to a certain class of people. Until it's all gone.

All I want/wanted is for people to be aware that there are consequences to their choice of wood, and that those consequences are worth a think about, and that it's up to *you* as to what choice you make.
And let's not forget that we're not talking about burning that last piece of ebony in order to cook food in order to avoid death - I'll help you with that. We're talking about using it to make a wooden box look a bit prettier - an option that, unless we're careful, your grandchildren simply won't have.
Am I pushing my specific agenda - well, yes - I started this topic to do just that. And I think it's a valid topic on a site devoted to woodworking.


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## miles125 (Jun 8, 2007)

The fact is we wouldn't have the trees that exist right now if eons of fires, volcanos and insects devestating forest wouldn't have occured. We can think the world is about us and our fleeting insistence that the environment on the day we were born was somehow the optimum. But in the big scheme of things, the world doesn't really give a crap about our irrational emotional attachment to forms of life that to us should be eternal but to the planet are really astonishingly temporary.


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## spalted (Mar 20, 2010)

>>My "shame on you" comment seems to have riled a number of people. I thought long and hard about that line before I wrote it, and I've thought long and hard about it since.
But still that's how I feel.
If I've made a single person feel guilty about their use of unsustainable wood - excellent - by definition you only feel guilty when you do things that you know aren't right.

Feel guilt all you want, but when you start suggesting that others should as well then you are basically trying to establish that your opinion is superior to others. I realize that this is a free site and I choose to read what I click on, but I am pretty tired of people who think they have moral superiority to others with comments like this, about religion, or about pictures they've posted. Its all the same to me. Everything has an opinion on everything, but you cross the line when you start suggesting that yours is worth more than mine by telling me I should feel shame if I don't have the time to check the source of my wood. Give me a break…

I'm mostly just a lurker, but this site has two sides.. One group is about woodworking (as intended), and the other is about feelings, man-love, and liberal guilt. I guess I'm fortunate that I don't have to use an Internet site to share my opinions, get support, and find friends. I'm going back to the other side now, briefly, then back to my life which is not on the computer.


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## KnickKnack (Aug 20, 2008)

>> Clearly you do not understand the market place and the fact that the US is not the center of the universe
So - you disagree with my assertion?
You *do* think that there's a point where something is sooooo expensive that no-one buys it? I'd be interested (seriously, I would) to hear examples where this is what's happened. In my experience, and in my view of human nature, that simply isn't how it goes. In China, for example, one way that's used to demonstrate your wealth is by the amount of food that you *throw away*, and I've seen it done - a table for 2 with enough food to feed 20, basically so it can be *seen* that you threw it away. (I'm not trying to knock the chinese, merely to demonstrate a bad trait of some wealthy humans). No matter how much something is, someone will want to buy it. But I'm no expert on what happens in "the market" - my mind is open on this - convince me.
I simply fail to comprehend the "US" part of this comment. I've reread everything I've written several times and I see nothing that implies in any sense anything whatsoever in any shape or form about the position of the US in the universe. I'm not American, I don't spell centre like the Americans, and I don't live in America. Please explain.

>> Regardless of what your mommy said…
Attack me, by all means, but, please, leave my mother out of this.

>> people have not responded to what you posted but rather to how you posted it
Yep. I know. This saddens me.
I've tried (and broadly succeeded, I think) to ignore the personal attacks. I'd hoped that people who are more intelligent and better informed than I am (as, I'm sure, many of the people here are) might have managed to deal with the issue at hand rather than my use of the phrase "shame on you". With a few exceptions, however, this hasn't been the case. I regret the use of this phrase, even though it's how I feel, since it's obviously derailed what should, I think, have been an interesting and valuable discussion. Hopefully I've learnt to keep the topic to the topic, and express my views in the reply section.

>> You have failed miserably at your attempt to promote introspection and good stewardship
Reply number 1 said, "Interesting post…I will pay more attention to where the folks I buy wood say it is from, and if they don't I will ask"

I'm not looking for a war of any kind, and I never was. I was hoping for information and a reasoned debate as to whether or not we are being responsible in our use of some of the exotic, and sometimes endangered, woods used in some of the projects here.
Maybe we should try and get back to that?

The questions, I think (but feel free to correct or improve) are…
1) Does our use of some of this wood endanger the species?
2) Should we care about that?
3) If we decide that we do care, what, if anything, can be done about it?


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## AaronK (Nov 30, 2008)

lol I was just going to say that it looks like KnickKnack is from portugal!

I will agree 100% that a lot of environmentalist liberals have an annoying way of trying to make people feel guilty, but just because someone says something in a bad way doesn't make the content any less valid (or visa versa). It is the duty of responsible people to reflect on the message in spite of the messenger. I have a deep-seated and knee-jerk personal resentment of the self-righteous liberal attitude, but I guess I'm a self-hating liberal then  also, how is liberal guilt preaching that different from religious guilt preaching?

also interesting is *spalted*'s statement that he sees a major part of this site being about "feelings, man-love, and liberal guilt." I'm not quite sure what he or she is trying to conflate, but I tend to see this site as overall quite welcoming, while still quite hegemonically masculine and socially conservative. When you're conservative, liberals are everywhere. When you're liberal, conservatives are everywhere. And when all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail, eh?


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## Daren (Sep 16, 2007)

I have stayed out of this…until now. Do I use only sustainable wood, yes. And have been in the business of it since 2004 as an urban logger. I only sawmill "yard trees" or ones being removed on construction sites. I am not so much trying to save the planet…just stop the shameful waste of a natural resource, the trees already being removed from our urban landscape. Too many people ring thier hands over deforestation 1/2 a world away…but totally ignore what is going on literally in their back yards. I could make this a very long post…instead I will just link what I have already written on the subject. Urban Logging


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

They knew early on the forests wouldn't last for ever. At the time of the Revolutionary War, firewood was being hauled 100 miles to heat Philadelphia.


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