# glued up panel warped



## dbw (Dec 2, 2013)

Hello all. I need your help in figuring out why this panel warped. It is part of a trash can lid. I made a trash can for my daughter. Her boyfriend took it home for her. He left it in the bed of his pickup truck overnight. The next morning he brought it into her house and the lid was warped significantly. Here are the particulars: the panel is made of 2 pieces of beech wood which I edge glued without any mechanical support. Just TB II glue. The finish is water based stain and Gloss MinWax Polycrilic. Is this piece salvageable or do I need to make another one? Will the moisture in the trash cause any panel to warp?


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## LittleShaver (Sep 14, 2016)

I would let it settle out in the space for a few days before I worried about it. I'm not sure where you are but I had a recent experience moving something from a moist environment to a dry environment. Warp self corrected after a few days.

A finish slows the rate of moisture absorption, but it will still happen. Perhaps introducing a gap between the bin and lid will allow moisture to escape?


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## Firewood (Dec 4, 2013)

My guess is moisture settled on the panel overnight causing the exposed surface to swell. Leave it sit inside for a few days until it finds its equilibrium. Lay it flat bowed side up but raise it so both top and bottom are exposed to the air. See how it looks then.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

What kind of wood is it? If it straightens itself out, you might want a couple more coats of poly just to add a little more moisture barrier, if nothing else for cleaning.

If you end up making another, I would consider either using plywood, with edgestrips to hide the plys, or using quarter sawn lumber which has less tendency to warp with moisture changes. If you cannot find QS lumber in the species you want, You may be able to rip the wood you have into strips and reglue them so that the growth rings are perpendicular to the surface. Depending upon the wood you use, you'll get sort of a butcher block affect that may actually be quite nice looking (just like your workbench top).


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## John Smith_inFL (Dec 15, 2017)

did you alternate the grain pattern ?
if you want to save it, I would cut it into 4 pieces and alternate the grain.










.


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## Kazooman (Jan 20, 2013)

Sounds to me that the cure for the future would be a different boyfriend. Not very smart to leave a custom made piece of wooden furniture in the bed of a pickup truck overnight.


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## bonesbr549 (Jan 1, 2010)

Ok think we all had that happen. A couple options. First wipe the humps side with water and place some big weight on it and leave it a few days. It may just come back had that happen. If that don't work, rip it and reglue.

Also wondering did you bring the wood into your shop and work with it without letting it rest? That will cause issues too.

Take your stock down after a couple weeks in the shop.

Good luck.


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## dbw (Dec 2, 2013)

A few points based on your replies:
1) I let the wood rest for a week before I did anything to it.
2) I did not alternate the grain pattern.
3) it appears the heavy weight trick isn't working. I'm using a box of 12"ceramic floor tile and it may not be enough. My next trick will be to wipe it down with water and find something which will create more pressure than a box of floor tile.
4) My favorite idea is for her to find a replacement boyfriend!!


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## BurlyBob (Mar 13, 2012)

I had the same thing happen with several beech glue ups for a project. I spent several weeks trying to flatten using everything I could think of I ended up putting all those pieces aside and buying a sheet of oak plywood.
What's a bit odd. I've since really started appreciating what a real nice wood beech is to work with. I much prefer it to poplar.


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## John Smith_inFL (Dec 15, 2017)

*do the math* and see what would be the most effective for a long time cure . . . .

wetting and weighing down with bags of sand and ceramic tiles for a month
only to have the same problem reoccur once it re-acclimates later down the road. (and it will).
- vs -
running it through the table saw and cut it into equal pieces, alternate the grain,
glue it back up, and start finishing it the next day.

(run a pencil mark across the top of one end prior to cutting - - - -
so you will know how to assemble it back with alternating grain).









jus my Dos Centavos because I have Been There and Done That !!!! (AND - I got the t-shirt).

.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

Alternating the grain is a myth so don't worry about that. It warped because the boyfriend left it outside laying flat. Wood movement is hydraulic, you'll have to carefully introduce moisture or remove moisture to make it move again.


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## John Smith_inFL (Dec 15, 2017)

*m y t h ???*

I have been gluing up panels of different species of wood for exterior sign panels for over 40 years
and I have come to believe that in alternating the grain to "prevent" cupping, curling and warping works.
myth or not - I strongly support the theory.









*this is a good read:* https://www.woodworkingnetwork.com/wood-products-red-book/red-book-woodworking-tools-best-practices/panel-processing-guide/The-Secret-to-Flat-Panels-269418501.html

and I have fabricated dozens and dozens of signs for the National Park Service and US Forest Service 
out of cedar, cypress and redwood.
they actually have "Government Specifications" on wood sign fabrication and they clearly describe how they
want the panels to have alternating grain, WITH a white oak spline between boards, AND dowel pins.

.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

I agree with Rick I use to alternate growth rings up and down the first year of woodworking but after that, I glued table tops and panels for the best grain match and have not had any problems the last 30 years. I was a big Norm fan and still am but this is one area he was wrong.
I would guess this problem had to do with this being left outside and moisture infiltrated the wood. even though it has a finish. Is the end grain finished? try putting a heat lamp over the convex side for a while and keep and eye on it,but not to close, when you do that put some stickers underneath.


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

I would be surprised if that panel didn't warp. If you made a 100 of them maybe one would behave in service. Beech is very unpredictable


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

Well, I have to say I've been gluing up panels for over 40 years also. Never payed attention to alternating, I always go for the best color and grain match. I also don't rip wide broads to 3 inches wide and glue them back together.

I will say most of my panels have been more cabinet door size an not as large as John Smiths shows. Still I've never had warping problems.

Edit to add: I don't leave my panels outside overnight laying flat


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## bonesbr549 (Jan 1, 2010)

I've seen conflicting opinions on growth ring alternation for so many years. Some swear by it others don't. I use to many years ago, but had a panel that I did that with warp just the same, and it was more my fubar, of taking down the rough stock quickly and only off one side that did more damage than anything else.

Generally a cup like that is from releasing too much moister from one side or resawing and exposing that center to air and that surface just dries quicker than the other.

I aclimate the wood to the shop as the OP did, and when milling I take it down in stages and watch it. Stickering between each stage. Had temendous luck only bad one was a door that I used a piece of flat for a stile rather than cut one more wide board to get some QS stuff for. Well that just caused me to not only cut that board but but the other stile and 2 rails. Salvaged the panel. Would have been a lot cheaper in time and materials to have just done it right the first time. Now If that board moves when I first take it down about 25% (and sticker overnight or a 2nd day) it goes in the cutoff bucket for an emergency secondary piece later.

One last thought, I figure my needed lumber and add 25-35 percent extra depending on wood tendency to move and go with it.

Some times better to just chuck it. But I would try the wet side and load it down with weight like cinder blocks or a good heavy tool and leave it for a 3-5 days. You will see pretty quick.

Good luck and cheers!


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

How is antique furniture made in regards to alternating?

If we see 200 year old pieces that are mostly alternating, then alternating works. If most aren't alternated then that works.


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## John Smith_inFL (Dec 15, 2017)

Roy Underhill says to alternate the growth rings in everything - so does Norm.
and so do I.

*taken from this article written by Roy Underhill: * 
http://www.pbs.org/woodwrightsshop/project-guides/tool-chest/part-2/

"Think about the orientation of the grain of the boards that you join together. The annual ring pattern on the end grain will tell you how the board will respond to changes in moisture content. Ideally, these rings will be at consistent right angles to the face of the boards. This "quartersawn" stock will not distort with further drying. Arching rings on the end grain, however, indicate boards that will become concave toward the bark side of the tree. Knowing that this will happen with such stock, you can minimize the cumulative effect by placing the boards in an alternating sequence of heart up and heart down. This will give you an undulating, wavelike but generally level surface. In a surface of all heart-up wood each board adds to the deviation of the previous one. Such an arrangement does, however, allow you to save wood because there will be less exposed sapwood to trim off for a good color match."

.


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## Gilley23 (May 9, 2017)

> How is antique furniture made in regards to alternating?
> 
> If we see 200 year old pieces that are mostly alternating, then alternating works. If most aren t alternated then that works.
> 
> - RobS888


How many pieces of furniture that got warped over the years do you think were thrown out?


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> How is antique furniture made in regards to alternating?
> 
> If we see 200 year old pieces that are mostly alternating, then alternating works. If most aren t alternated then that works.
> 
> ...


A lot, that's why I figured the ones that survived were the stable ones.


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## Tennessee (Jul 8, 2011)

A HUGE +1 for what John Smith says.

Even the most basic woodworking teaching book talks about alternating grain. Would not glue up anything without looking at the end grain first…


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## ColonelTravis (Mar 19, 2013)

> How is antique furniture made in regards to alternating?
> 
> If we see 200 year old pieces that are mostly alternating, then alternating works. If most aren t alternated then that works.
> 
> - RobS888


200 years ago, wide pieces were far more common than they are today. Alternating strips became a big deal with automation and mass production. Today with climate controlled interiors, unless you miscalculated acclimation or something else radical happened, any panel you make should be fine. If this were not true, then every competent woodworker right now would say - you must alternate your boards. But not everyone says this. Too many respectable, knowledgeable people who've been at it their whole lives say - it doesn't matter. This tells me that non-alternating glue-ups in and of themselves does not cause widespread problems.


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## Tabletop (May 9, 2016)

Just my opinion, nothing scientific, years ago when drying lumber wasn't as efficient/effective it was probably best to alternate. With lumber being at 6% moisture content currently the alternating isn't as necessary. I've made thousands of table tops with no issues and I don't pay any attention to alternating unless it's aesthetically pleasing. I'm with everyone else, get rid of boyfriend. Lol. Just one more thought, is your blade square to your table?


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## John Smith_inFL (Dec 15, 2017)

I just checked a 100+ year old bedside chamber commode that I inherited many years ago.
the top is 19×16" quarter sawn red oak - all one board, which was common a century ago.
(confirms what Col.Travis said).

I also have a cedar dresser that is about 75 years old and the top is alternating growth rings.










not to jack the thread from the O/P - but I have submitted my "opinions" and stand by them.

*TableTop said:* "I've made thousands of table tops with no issues" . . . the word "thousands in 15 years" 
sort of turned my head - - - then I got my calculator out (I'm really bad with numbers).
during my sign making career, let's say I averaged 5 signs per week, in a 50 week year, that would be 250.
over 40 years, that would be 10,000 signs !!!! (more or less) 
whoooaaaaaa NELLY that is a LOT of woodworking !!!

.

.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

We all do what works for us, alternate don't alternate, applications might be different such as I make furniture and John seems to make signs some folks live in Arizona and some in Florida.is climate a factor? Books will differ in what they say according to the experience of their author. No one's stopping anyone from doing it the way they want, As for me I tell my students that there's a belief that alternating the growth rings pattern for panels helps prevent wood from cupping and then I tell them what my experience is and let them choose their own path.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

Well I'm not changing something that works for me and looks better than mismatched grain and color. I don't care what Norm or even Bruce Hoadley says. If it ain't broke don't fix it.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

If alternating grain were necessary or even prudent, everyone would do it and it would be in all the basic woodworking magazines and texts; but it isn't. I'd never even heard of it until the internet. And even if it did work, I don't want a washboard tabletop because you'd have to ruin it to fix it. A tabletop that cups in one direction is easy to fix with battens or kerfing. A tabletop that cups in multiple directions (as predicted by the alternating grain myth) would be impossible to fix without planing the top flat and refinishing, and hoping it doesn't warp again. Grain direction doesn't cause warp, and grain direction doesn't prevent warp.



> I don t care what Norm or even Bruce Hoadley says. ...
> - AlaskaGuy


What does Bruce Hoadley write about it?



> If we see 200 year old pieces that are mostly alternating, then alternating works. If most aren t alternated then that works.
> - RobS888


If 10,000 become firewood but 100 survive, then it isn't good practice. We can't assume ones that survive are different than ones that didn't, it could be a matter of environment and care. It's the same fallacy that Flexner uses to justify not finishing the bottom of a table. If you want to learn about best practices from antiques, you'd have to study ones that survive and ones that don't in equal measure and that isn't very practical since not surviving implies they aren't around to study.


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## John Smith_inFL (Dec 15, 2017)

*Bruce Hoadly:* page 10.

https://books.google.com/books?id=yfeCQ_MpE7cC&pg=PA10&lpg=PA10&dq=bruce+hoadley+alternating+growth+rings&source=bl&ots=5EDNqy_oth&sig=oiukyf-_tI0EnROPofTVvpRAOk4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiuzPjIgczYAhWKzFMKHYQ6AUUQ6AEIQTAI#v=onepage&q=bruce%20hoadley%20alternating%20growth%20rings&f=false


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

"Alternating the rings make the cupping more obvious. The resulting wavy top may be hard to fasten down, but an appearance of overall flatness is maintained." - Bruce Hoadly

It will definitely be more obvious. Definitely be more difficult to fasten down. And will be WAY more difficult to fix. I'm skeptical about the "less stress at the glue lines" part. A tighter radius curve will stress glue lines more than a gradual curve. Basically he adds nothing to the discussion.

If the wood is flat and dry when you start, and it warps, it's because you screwed up; not because of grain direction. Grain direction doesn't cause warp and won't prevent warp.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> If alternating grain were necessary or even prudent, everyone would do it and it would be in all the basic woodworking magazines and texts; but it isn t. I d never even heard of it until the internet. And even if it did work, I don t want a washboard tabletop because you d have to ruin it to fix it. A tabletop that cups in one direction is easy to fix with battens or kerfing. A tabletop that cups in multiple directions (as predicted by the alternating grain myth) would be impossible to fix without planing the top flat and refinishing, and hoping it doesn t warp again. Grain direction doesn t cause warp, and grain direction doesn t prevent warp.
> 
> I don t care what Norm or even Bruce Hoadley says. ...
> - AlaskaGuy
> ...


As my memory remembers Bruce say to alternate the the growth rings. Not to totally trust my memory I dug out he book.

I could not fine any reference to "alternating growth rings "what so ever. I did fine 2 illustrations showing growth rings, but under other none specific topics. See photos below. This is all I can find in the book.





Not ready to change my ways


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

I think a table would be layed out for the best possible look to the grain. It would drive me nuts to sit and look at a bunch if chaotic grain pattern. The top should look beautiful with harmony my favorite is with rift sawn or Veritcal lines on the edges. 
If you cannot make a table with a beautiful top then it's just not worth making.
One exception for me would be a table at a restaurant then it really doesn't matter because no one has to live with it.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> I think a table would be layed out for the best possible look to the grain. It would drive me nuts to sit and look at a bunch if chaotic grain pattern. The top should look beautiful with harmony my favorite is with rift sawn or Veritcal lines on the edges.
> If you cannot make a table with a beautiful top then it s just not worth making.
> One exception for me would be a table at a restaurant then it really doesn t matter because no one has to live with it.
> 
> - Aj2


+1


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> *m y t h ???*
> 
> I have been gluing up panels of different species of wood for exterior sign panels for over 40 years
> and I have come to believe that in alternating the grain to "prevent" cupping, curling and warping works.
> ...


I've been glueing up panels for over 50 years and I agree with Rick. Unless I'm book matching, I go with what looks good.

Back to the OP. Lids like that need battens. There will always be a significant difference in moisture between the inside of a trash can and outside, so regardless of growth ring orientation, you will get warping. You can probably save what you've got by adding two or three to it.


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## unclearthur (Jul 4, 2013)

I was just reading that "Understanding Wood" book and the author notes that plainsawn boards will tend to cup away from the center (pith) as they dry, which would seem to argue for alternating growth rings, especially if your wood is on the wet side or if it will see a lot of humidity changes through the seasons.

If you prefer an overall cup to "waviness" then I guess the opposite will be true.

And if the wood is dry and humidity reasonably constant, it probably doesn't matter.


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## tomsteve (Jan 23, 2015)

all this talk about alternating grain make me hungry for bacon and i dont care what the grain pattern will be in it.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> I was just reading that "Understanding Wood" book and the author notes that plainsawn boards will tend to cup away from the center (pith) as they dry, which would seem to argue for alternating growth rings, especially if your wood is on the wet side or if it will see a lot of humidity changes through the seasons.
> 
> If you prefer an overall cup to "waviness" then I guess the opposite will be true.
> 
> ...


You shouln't be using wet wood. You wood should be using wood that is dried and acclimated to your part of the country.


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## Tabletop (May 9, 2016)

> I just checked a 100+ year old bedside chamber commode that I inherited many years ago.
> the top is 19×16" quarter sawn red oak - all one board, which was common a century ago.
> (confirms what Col.Travis said).
> 
> ...


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

I think it's a little late for us not to high jack this thread LOL. I'm wondering if Dbw got anything out of this thread other than who thinks their right ???


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## dbw (Dec 2, 2013)

This thread is A LOT longer than I anticipated. Hey Rich - what are battens?


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

A batten is just a wood strip. In this case I think you would have installed them across the grain to help stiffen the top and possibly prevent or at least minimize the bowing. You probably should not glue them on and should be installed using screw with slightly oversized holes to allow for difference in the movement, though that might not be that big of a deal on such a small piece.


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## rbrjr1 (Nov 2, 2017)

> did you alternate the grain pattern ?
> if you want to save it, I would cut it into 4 pieces and alternate the grain.
> 
> 
> ...


THIS.

you can see in the lid pictures you posted how the grain all running the same direction compounded the warp.

always flip the boards so that warp doesn't have the chance to compound as it moves across a wider surface.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> did you alternate the grain pattern ?
> if you want to save it, I would cut it into 4 pieces and alternate the grain.
> 
> 
> ...


The OP's panel warped because it was abused not because of the grain orientation. Of course I can't prove that but I've made enough panels to know it's highly unlikely that was the problem. That's my experience and I'll stick with it.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> This thread is A LOT longer than I anticipated. Hey Rich - what are battens?
> 
> - dbw


See Lazyman's post. He nailed it. Battens run across the grain to flatten the board, and like he said, it's important to make the holes in the batten for the screws elongated so the board can expand and contract without splitting.

Like I said, based on the photo you posted, I believe that two or three battens will pull that board flat.

Something like this (not exactly what I'd do, but it's the best photo I could find on short notice):


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## rbrjr1 (Nov 2, 2017)

> The OP s panel warped because it was abused not because of the grain orientation. Of course I can t prove that but I ve made enough panels to know it s highly unlikely that was the problem. That s my experience and I ll stick with it.
> 
> - AlaskaGuy


you're right, that's WHY it warped.. but if he had alternated the grain when ripping the strips into 2"-3" widths, it would have taken the abuse MUCH better and he probably wouldn't be asking how to fix it on LJ


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> The OP s panel warped because it was abused not because of the grain orientation. Of course I can t prove that but I ve made enough panels to know it s highly unlikely that was the problem. That s my experience and I ll stick with it.
> 
> - AlaskaGuy
> 
> ...


Yes that is possible but then it would look like a miss matched piece of do do nobody would wants.

Look how icky these cabinets look because of the wood and the color variation .


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## EarlS (Dec 21, 2011)

I read through most of this and it sounds like everyone is regurgitating the same arguments on both sides. I rather doubt that anyone will change their mind one way or the other based on this conversation.

I try to alternate if the grain patterns look good, otherwise, appearance always trumps (not the president) alternating. For wide glue-ups, using a batten is the best way to keep it flat. That is kind of what the figure 8's and such do on a top, keep it from cupping while allowing for seasonal movement.

At least I didn't see any references to politics.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

> but if he had alternated the grain when ripping the strips into 2"-3" widths
> - rbrjr1


And look like something purchased from Home Depot. What you're talking about is a little different and allows manufacturers to use questionable lumber, cheapest they can get, by averaging and minimizing the normal movement of any one piece. I don't know that it prevents warping when the panel is exposed to uneven moisture levels, that hasn't been demonstrated, it probably helps depending on the orientation of the individual pieces. QS strips will keep the table more flat. Manufacturers also have a variety of other tricks like spattering to disguise the grain, stain & toners to change the color, all so they can use a variety of species without customers being able to tell.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Ditto "regurgitating the same arguments on both sides" do what works for you experienced folks! New folks read the arguments both side of the issue, look at the people projects that posted and see if the proof is in the Pudding. 
Otherwise just know I'm right LOL


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

To be contrary, I haven't read any arguments supporting alternating grain. It's seems we are supposed to just believe it. And no one has responded to what I said about a single cup being easy to fix as opposed to a washboard.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> The OP s panel warped because it was abused not because of the grain orientation. Of course I can t prove that but I ve made enough panels to know it s highly unlikely that was the problem. That s my experience and I ll stick with it.
> 
> - AlaskaGuy
> 
> ...


So you say…lol. Based on what experience? Like Jim says, I look at member's project list to see if they are credible. You're not doing so well. I'll put my money on AG knowing his stuff.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

I don't put faith in people alone, anyone can be wrong. Newton and Einstein were smart cookies but no one took their word for anything, and both were sometimes wrong. So to say that something is true because someone says so isn't enough for me.


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## rbrjr1 (Nov 2, 2017)

> So you say…lol. Based on what experience? Like Jim says, I look at member s project list to see if they are credible. You re not doing so well. I ll put my money on AG knowing his stuff.
> 
> - Rich


You're right.. adding battens to a piece of work to rectify poor construction methods makes a LOT more sense than building it correctly to begin with..

If you need my resume to understand that my point is valid, you're opinion isn't worth my effort. (I'm certainly not looking for your approval)


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

The construction method wasn't at fault.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> If you need my resume to understand that my point is valid, you're opinion isn't worth my effort. (I m certainly not looking for your approval)
> 
> - rbrjr1


Good, because you won't be getting any from me. It's a general consensus around here that one's bona fides are a factor in how their comments are received by the community.


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## dbw (Dec 2, 2013)

New information: I made one of these trash cans in 2015 for my other daughter. The lid was made out of soft maple. I checked with her a few days ago and she tells me the lid is as straight as it every was.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

> New information: I made one of these trash cans in 2015 for my other daughter. The lid was made out of soft maple. I checked with her a few days ago and she tells me the lid is as straight as it every was.
> 
> - dbw


Hah. Sounds like the main difference was the boy friend.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> New information: I made one of these trash cans in 2015 for my other daughter. The lid was made out of soft maple. I checked with her a few days ago and she tells me the lid is as straight as it every was.
> 
> - dbw
> 
> ...


No Surprise


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## TungOil (Jan 16, 2017)

Just curious- are the top and bottom of this lid finished exactly the same?


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## Carloz (Oct 12, 2016)

> To be contrary, I haven t read any arguments supporting alternating grain. It s seems we are supposed to just believe it. And no one has responded to what I said about a single cup being easy to fix as opposed to a washboard.
> 
> - Rick_M


A "washboard" has many times smaller deviation from a straight line than a single cup, so it is not noticeable.


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## Carloz (Oct 12, 2016)

Beauty in the eye of the beholder. Too perfect matched panels look like plywood.


> but if he had alternated the grain when ripping the strips into 2"-3" widths
> - rbrjr1
> 
> And look like something purchased from Home Depot.


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## dbw (Dec 2, 2013)

the top and bottom are finished in the same exact way. Here is another thought: Is it possible the beech wood is more prone to cupping than the soft maple?


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## rbrjr1 (Nov 2, 2017)

> Good, because you won t be getting any from me. It s a general consensus around here that one s bona fides are a factor in how their comments are received by the community.
> 
> - Rich


lol..
new sig.. thanks..


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## gargey (Apr 11, 2016)

I feel like piling on here:

1) A wide piece of wood, if perfectly flattened at any given level of ambient humidity (fully acclimated), *will* cup of there is a significant change in the level of ambient humidity, and the wood is allowed to fully acclimate to the new level. This is due to the T/R ratio; difference in the amount of shrinkage tangentially compared to radially.

-Don't get your panties in a bunch. The extent of this varies *massively* with several variables including type of wood, thickness, etc etc. Tables also support wood to keep it flat. All else equal the above statement is plainly true.

2) Accordingly, a panel glued up with the same orientation (i.e. inside of tree up) through-out *will also* exhibit this behavior.

3) Alternating the orientation *will* mitigate this behavior.

4) NOT ALL CUPPING IS ALIKE, the piece in question cupped because it was exposed to more moisture on one side than the other. One side of the panel expanded while the other didnt.

5) Regarding #4, alternating the orientation would have had no impact on the panel; it was exposed on 1 side, and that side expanded.

6) The panel should return to flatness once it reaches its original (fully acclimated) humidity level - unless it was overstressed by the ordeal (similar to case hardening).

7) Die Hard 1 and Die Hard 3 (With A Vengeance) are by far the best Die Hards.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> lol..
> new sig.. thanks..
> 
> - rbrjr1
> ...


That's very true. I'm just waiting to hear one from you.

P.S. I added the apostrophe in "don't" for you. When you're calling someone an idiot, it's best to punctuate correctly.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> I feel like piling on here:
> 
> 1) A wide piece of wood, if perfectly flattened at any given level of ambient humidity (fully acclimated), *will* cup of there is a significant change in the level of ambient humidity, and the wood is allowed to fully acclimate to the new level. This is due to the T/R ratio; difference in the amount of shrinkage tangentially compared to radially.
> 
> ...


I'm going for the best looking panel like I've done forever with out problems. In my world the proof is in the pudding not in the text book.


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## JKMDETAIL (Nov 13, 2013)

the whole idea of ripping into narrower pieces might not be and option at this point. Once you lose the kerf width it might be to narrow. Good lick with getting it flat.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> Beauty in the eye of the beholder. Too perfect matched panels look like plywood.
> 
> but if he had alternated the grain when ripping the strips into 2"-3" widths
> - rbrjr1
> ...


That a good one Carloz, maybe with a few more years experience you too will be able to tell the difference between plywood and solid wood.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

> I m going for the best looking panel like I ve forever with out problem. In my world the proof is in the pudding…
> 
> - AlaskaGuy


Sums it up.

If you want to do quality woodworking, study the work of fine woodworkers.


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## gargey (Apr 11, 2016)

I would do the same. The bullet under point 1 is salient.



> I m going for the best looking panel like I ve forever with out problem. In my world the proof is in the pudding not in the text book.
> 
> - AlaskaGuy


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

Tracking 68 replies (so far) to a warped trash can lid, left overnight in the back of a pickup truck.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> Tracking 68 replies (so far) to a warped trash can lid, left overnight in the back of a pickup truck.
> 
> - Smitty_Cabinetshop


I hear high traffic is good of advertisers. Doing my part.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

By all means, Carry On!


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Tracking 68 replies (so far) to a warped trash can lid, left overnight in the back of a pickup truck.
> 
> - Smitty_Cabinetshop


Maybe we can do a thread mashup and debate if the glue and clamping pressure used made any difference in the warping.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

I kinda just did that in the glue and clamp thread. lawl.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> I kinda just did that in the glue and clamp thread. lawl.
> 
> - Smitty_Cabinetshop


Genius!!! I got a good laugh out of that one.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

> Tracking 68 replies (so far) to a warped trash can lid, left overnight in the back of a pickup truck.
> 
> - Smitty_Cabinetshop


Gluing up a panel is pretty basic to woodworking.



> A "washboard" has many times smaller deviation from a straight line than a single cup, so it is not noticeable.
> - Carloz


That is the theory and I think you are the first to actually come out and say it, far as this thread goes. I have never actually seen a washboard table, though I look all the time. But in a previous thread someone posted this picture. Alternating grain, unfinished bottom, and Anna White construction that doesn't allow for movement. Triple whammy. This shows the downside to alternating the grain. But ultimately, a warped panel is user error.










http://lumberjocks.com/topics/171434


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

It's Ted's Woodworking…lol. I used a URL expander and didn't follow the link. I suggest you all don't either.

I thought he changed the name to Chuck's or something.


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