# table saw kickback cause by the saw?



## el_mustango (Oct 26, 2017)

I need the expertise of this board, as I am a novice maker at best. I recently purchased a used General International 50-185M1 table saw. Previously, I had been using a very inexpensive, no-name benchtop table saw that my dad has had for 20+ years. I feel that I need to (embarrassingly) admit that neither saw has a riving knife or splitter. I used my dad's cheap table saw for a couple of months (making maybe a 100 or so cuts) with no problems (except the fence was horrible, which why I finally purchased the GI with its biesemeyer-clone fence). However, I've made maybe 20 to 30 cuts on the GI table, and I've had TWO kickbacks already. The first time it kicked back was last week, and the piece of wood grazed me and left a pretty decent sized sliver in my side. After that incident, I immediately ordered a MicroJig MJ Splitter SteelPro (which should arrive this week). Today, in an effort to finish up a project for my daughter's birthday, I used the GI (still with no splitter) to do just a few cuts. I meade sure to go slow and be deliberate- using push sticks, microjig grr-ripper 3D pushblock, and a FeatherPro featherboard. Again, I experienced kickback, this time the board slammed me pretty squarely in the gut. Luckily I was wearing a waxed canvas apron and two shirts underneath. It did rip the apron, although not the shirts underneath. It felt like I had been punched super hard in the gut and it left a huge abrasion.

All safety issues aside (trust me, I will NOT be using the table saw until I get the MJ splitter install) I think there might be an issue with my GI. I say this because I've watched a ton of safety videos on how to properly use a table saw and I've read a ton of articles on safety. I've used the other, cheaper table saw with no issues. Most people use a table saw for decades without splitters or riving knifes and have only experienced kickback once or twice in all that time. I also know that it is a poor craftsman who blames his tools. But it's happened to me twice in one week while using a new saw. So, I'm thinking the blade might be misaligned.

I set up my digital caliper to check the distance from the miter gauge slot to the blade. I marked one tooth and measure at the front of the blade, then rotated the blade and measured the same tooth at the back of the blade. Here is a picture of the set I used with the caliper and my miter gauge:










At the front of the blade, it read: 36.20mm
At the back of the blade, it read: 36.94mm

If I'm reading and understanding it correctly, it means the blade is closer to the fence on the back of the blade the front. I know that a blade that is misaligned can cause kickback. Would a misalignment of 0.74mm cause kickback?

I'm honestly frightened to use this saw again. Which would suck, because I just bought it and there's no way I could afford to replace it. Is it the saw that's causing the kickback? I think I'm a reasonably intelligent dude and I don't believe this to be user error. Any and all advice is welcome.


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## John Smith_inFL (Dec 15, 2017)

watching this one through "my good eye"


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

Kickback is user error and usually from using improperly dried wood or wet wood. Definitely tune up the saw and then learn basic safety rules and follow them. If using questionable wood, only cut halfway, by setting blade to half the Thickness, through on the first rip and see if the kerf closes.

https://www.tru.ca/hsafety/workinglearningsafely/work/tablesaw.html


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## BillWhite (Jul 23, 2007)

Sounds as if ya need to do a bit of realignment. Blade should be even with the slot and fence. Some even "relieve" the trailing edge of the fence a bit (few thou.) to allow clearance.
This adjustment and the splitter will help big time.
Just my thoughts.
Bill


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## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

It is partially user error. Do not stand in back of the saw where a kicked back piece can get you. Stand to the side.

You need to find someone close to you than can give you some lessons before you kill yourself.


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## WhyMe (Feb 15, 2014)

Since your measurement is from the outside miter slot away from the fence it indicates the blade is tighter to the fence on the rear than the front which will cause kickback. I assume your fence is in alignment with the right miter slot? It is better to take the measurements from the miter slot on the fence side.


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

If the fence is closer to the blade at the rear, you will get kick-back as it's pinching the wood between the two. Your new used saw should be given a complete once over before using - clean, lube, align, etc… that will also give you a chance to examine the machine for any consumables that may need replacing like belts or bearings.

Cheers,
Brad


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

Boards that are warped or twisted are more likely to give you trouble. I read in your post what the condition of the wood is milled flat and straight ? I do believe that a table should be in proper alinement but mostly for clean cutting and longer blade life.
I rip all rough wood on a bandsaw or anything that hasn't been milled flat by me.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)




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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

I've never been a fan of standing in a certain place.

More of a fan of learning how to not have a kickback in the first place.

Of course your fence needs to be set up properly, I keep mine equal distance.
The next thing to learn is not to let go of your piece until you have gone past the blade. 
If you push it all the way through how can you have kick back?

You can't run a warped, crooked piece without the chance of trouble, so you have to learn when a piece can be a problem or not, before you cut it.


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## Carloz (Oct 12, 2016)

0.74mm is 15 times worse than acceptable. I am surprised you got only two kickbacks.
If you keep the workpiece pressed against the fence as you should, there is 0.74mm of wood at the back that overlap with the blade. It has more than enough support to grab the piece and raise it from the table.
However realigning the saw is very easy whether it has table mounted or cabinet mounted trunnions. You should have done it first thing after you bought the saw.


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## Dr_T (Jun 29, 2013)

el mustango,
Couple other things to think about and measure in addition to what has already been mentioned above:
1. Using the same setup, measure to the fence parallel to your blade front and back. Your blade can be aligned with the miter slot but not with the fence, which could contribute to the issues you are seeing.
2. Are you getting any play in the miter slot? If there is side-to-side travel of your runner in your miter slot, you may not be getting an accurate reading on your original measurement.

Hope you get your problem figured out, I know how disappointing it can be to get something and then figure out you can't use it for some reason or another.

Dr T


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> I ve never been a fan of standing in a certain place.
> 
> More of a fan of learning how to not have a kickback in the first place.
> 
> ...


Two things. You are a seasoned table saw user (not everyone is) 2, That' like saying I don't wear a seat belt because I drive safe.

Standing out of line of fire is just one layer of the whole process.


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## Ripper70 (Nov 30, 2015)

I remember when you were shopping for this saw and said that you made several cuts on site and thought it performed beautifully. When you transported the saw home did you disassemble it and then reassemble when you got it home? Perhaps something got out of alignment?

It's a Biesemeyer Fence, correct? If so, have a look at this video (if you haven't discovered this already) on how to adjust the alignment of your fence.


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

Never assume everything is setup properly. Especially after transport.


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

> I ve never been a fan of standing in a certain place.
> 
> More of a fan of learning how to not have a kickback in the first place.
> 
> ...


You can't compare a table saw cut to driving a car.

Being a seasoned table saw user is why I'm trying to teach how not to have a kickback. 
If you have flat true wood, saw is set up properly, push wood all the way past the blade and don't let go of the wood, the chance of kickback should be nill.
There is no reason to concern yourself where to stand, except for the best position to make the cut properly.
Just my Opinion!

I know there are plenty of people more concerned with standing out of the way, waiting for the kickback.
If you have kickback on your mind you don't have the confidence to start with, and probably will end up with a kickback. To each their own.


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## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

> Kickback is user error and usually from using improperly dried wood or wet wood. Definitely tune up the saw and then learn basic safety rules and follow them. If using questionable wood, only cut halfway, by setting blade to half the Thickness, through on the first rip and see if the kerf closes.
> 
> https://www.tru.ca/hsafety/workinglearningsafely/work/tablesaw.html
> 
> - Rick_M


It's not always user error. Chit happens…


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

> It s not always user error. Chit happens…
> 
> - JackDuren


Disagree, It's always user error. Give me an example of when it was the machines fault.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

A perfect person who makes no errors. What a fairyland concept. I will stand out of the direct line of fire just in case.


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## Holbs (Nov 4, 2012)

http://lumberjocks.com/topics/223177 my DIY table saw alignment tool

1.) measure and align saw blade to miter slot
2.) measure and align the same miter slot to fence
3.) for giggles, measure and align saw blade to fence

if all 3 are within acceptable parameters, it's not a mechanical issue. If spooked out in fear of another kickback, try strips of plywood for a couple runs instead of hardwood/softwood as plywood is more stable


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## AZWoody (Jan 18, 2015)

> Disagree, It s always user error. Give me an example of when it was the machines fault.
> 
> - jbay


There is no way that any user can know enough about the lumber to say that it's only caused by user error.
Setting up the machine and having flat and square lumber is only part of the equation.

If you get a piece of lumber that's case hardened, due to not being dried correctly, can be a source of a kickback if there is no riving knife or splitter.
Also, has no one here ever cut a piece of wood off a board and noticed the board is no longer straight?
Internal stresses can be released from a single cut and if it causes the stress to relieve into the blade, no matter how careful the operator is, it's going to pinch at the back of the blade. So, also making sure you push all the way through is moot. The kickback will have already happened.

Unless the operator selected the log, milled it, dried it and made sure he has seen all steps of the lumber process, there is no way to blame operator error on all kickbacks and assuming there's some method to avoiding it other than making sure a splitter is there and also making sure you use some kind of tool to help feed the wood through and not your hands.

Kickbacks are the leading cause of fingers being cut off as well. The kickback causes the hand to be pulled into the blade.


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## John Smith_inFL (Dec 15, 2017)

why can't we all just concede that a table saw is a very dangerous tool.
whether one takes chances to operate it in an unsafe manner or not,
the operator is the one that will suffer the consequences.
I, for one, will admit, that a lapse in judgement or a distraction for 1/10th of a Nano Second 
can send you to the Emergency Room - regardless of how seasoned or experienced you think you are.
if you choose to work around the safety parameters, you better double check your insurance policy.
so far, my medical bills are approaching the $91,000.00 mark and still climbing.
your shop - your tools = your call.

http://lumberjocks.com/topics/252553

.


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

Where did you put the feather board? I have seen people put them where they cause the pinching and kickback.


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

> There is no way that any user can know enough about the lumber to say that it s only caused by user error.
> Setting up the machine and having flat and square lumber is only part of the equation.
> 
> If you get a piece of lumber that s case hardened, due to not being dried correctly, can be a source of a kickback if there is no riving knife or splitter.
> ...


Of course there is more to it than just selecting flat wood. 
You need to recognize when the wood is starting to pinch if internal stresses are being released, and you need to know what to do at that point. Many a times I have stopped, held my wood down, and had to shut off the saw.

Every situation when making a cut is different.
In reference to your scenarios *Being able to recognize what is happening and making the correct decision at that point makes the difference.*

I don't consider myself perfect but I do have experience and I do use my table saw everyday and haven't had a kickback that I can remember in over 23 years. I'm not naive enough to think that it can't happen tomorrow but I do take the proper steps when making cuts to insure my odds are better.


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## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

> If you get a piece of lumber that s case hardened, due to not being dried correctly, can be a source of a kickback* if there is no riving knife or splitter.*
> - AZWoody


That's user error.


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## bbasiaga (Dec 8, 2012)

0.74mm is just less than 0.003", which is right on the edge of spec for parallelism. Some saw manuals suggest 0.002, others as much as 0.004. Regardless, that is probably not the cause of your problem. As stated above, if you push your piece all the way past the blade then your very very slightly out of line blade will just continue to cut it without much ado.

It could be that your fence is pinched in and is forcing the board in to the blade. Check that as suggested above as well.

I am guessing the featherboard might be the culprit. If it is not fully in front of the blade, it is trouble. It will be pressing the offcut side in to the side of the blade, making it pinch the blade. It will then be thrown at you. Hard, as you have experienced. I don't often use mine at the table saw, saving it for the bandsaw and router table.

Anyway, check those things out. Don't expect your splitter to save you. It will help, but not solve any of those alignment issues.

Brian


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## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

> 0.74mm is just less than 0.003", which is right on the edge of spec for parallelism.
> 
> - bbasiaga


One too many Zero's Brian. He's out almost 1/32" in less than 10". That's a mile out of spec. That's probably a good part of the problem right there. Feather board might well be another.


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

> 0.74mm is just less than 0.003",
> 
> Brian
> 
> - bbasiaga


0.74mm is .029


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## alittleoff (Nov 27, 2014)

Get the splitter installed, setup the saw and to really help out put a set of these on the fence also. Best money I ever spent.
Gerald


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## el_mustango (Oct 26, 2017)

Thank you all for your responses.

Thank you especially to @Carloz for your answer that 0.74mm is 15 times worse than acceptable. This is exactly the info I was looking for.

Thanks also to @Dr_T-I will def measure to the fence parallel to the blade front and back. I will be making sure that everything is in perfect alignment with everything else before I ever run another piece of wood through it. The miter gauge fits perfectly in the miter slot, no play whatsoever. That's why I decided to use the caliper and the miter slot to begin my measurements. Thanks also for the empathy.

@Ripper70 - yes we had to partially disassemble it to transport it. It is likely when it got out of alignment. Thanks for the link to the "Paralleling a Table Saw Fence" video-very helpful.

@Holbs-I will make sure that all three steps are complete and everything is within acceptable parameters. That being said, can someone tell me what those acceptable parameters are? Doing the math based on @Carloz's statement, is it 0.05mm or less the acceptable tolerance?

I will just conclude by saying that unfortunately, I can't blame it on the wood. I also accept user error blame, as (a) I had no splitter or riving knife, (b) didn't make sure that everything was perfectly aligned after I transported it, and (c ) I was obviously not standing in a good spot. After seeing the responses and thinking about it further, it will def be spending some quality time really getting to know the "insides" of this saw and making sure everything is in perfect alignment.

In case anyone else comes upon this thread, here's a good article on tuning up your table saw: http://www.woodmagazine.com/woodworking-tips/techniques/outfitting-woodworking-shop/tune-up-your-tablesaw

Finally - does anyone knows where I can purchase the actual splitter and guard that came standard on the saw? I contacted GI and they said: " We've been sold-out of these for over a year now. I suggest you look with GRIZZLY or POWERNATIC in the USA, if they have an identical model (same factory)." I've looked through both their sites and can't find it. Perhaps I'm not as bright I claimed above


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## el_mustango (Oct 26, 2017)

@alittleoff - i have to admit I don't know what that is. Could you provide a link to more info?



> Get the splitter installed, setup the saw and to really help out put a set of these on the fence also. Best money I ever spent.
> Gerald
> 
> 
> ...


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

> It s not always user error. Chit happens…
> - JackDuren


 Earthquakes? But even so, if you are following the guidelines I linked, your exposure to danger will be minimal. Focus on the the everyday things you can control, not the one in a million acts of god you can't.


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## Holbs (Nov 4, 2012)

what is acceptable parameter of miter slot to blade? hmm.. as close to 0.000000001" as possible 
My powermatic 66 is 0.001" over front of blade to rear of Sharkguard splitter. I'm happy with that.
I went with Sharkguard over those MG splitter tabs because wanted a blade guard, dust collection, and splitter in one unit.


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## ppg677 (Jan 21, 2016)

> why can t we all just concede that a table saw is a very dangerous tool.
> whether one takes chances to operate it in an unsafe manner or not,
> the operator is the one that will suffer the consequences.
> I, for one, will admit, that a lapse in judgement or a distraction for 1/10th of a Nano Second
> ...


How many HP is your saw? I only use 1.5hp saws and I feel they bind up and slow down a bit before the kickback occurs.


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## John Smith_inFL (Dec 15, 2017)

PPG - the actual HP is not listed. it was a Skilsaw 3310 15amp with tons of torque.
I sold that man killer a couple of weeks ago and now have rejuvenated an old belt driven Craftsman Pro
with a 1.5 hp motor and am loving it….. all cast iron top and making a few sleds for it.
hopefully, the sleds will minimize any future injuries. you would not believe the safety awareness
that a person has after a terrible accident. I find that I am 3rd guessing myself and triple checking
all safety concerns prior to hitting the green button. [which is a good thang].

be safe boys n girls - be safe


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## ppg677 (Jan 21, 2016)

> PPG - the actual HP is not listed. it was a Skilsaw 3310 15amp with tons of torque.
> I sold that man killer a couple of weeks ago and now have rejuvenated an old belt driven Craftsman Pro
> with a 1.5 hp motor and am loving it….. all cast iron top and making a few sleds for it.
> hopefully, the sleds will minimize any future injuries. you would not believe the safety awareness
> ...


Thanks for the reminder! I bought a SawStop PCS 1.5 after I almost mindlessly put my hand into a spinning blade. But that won't save me from kickback. I've never really experienced kickback. Just a couple very minor ones that didn't really scare me.


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## jonah (May 15, 2009)

Table saw kickback is never caused by the saw. It's caused by the operator not knowing how to properly set up and use the saw.

Snarkiness aside, you need to align the blade, miter slots, and fence to within a thousandth of an inch or two. If there's any crookedness, make it so the rear of the fence is farther from the blade, not closer.

And stop standing directly behind the flying wood.


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## Carloz (Oct 12, 2016)

> you need to align the blade, ...and fence to within a thousandth of an inch or two…,
> 
> - jonah


Yeah, sure. Good luck with that!


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## jonah (May 15, 2009)

It's dead simple with a dial indicator and a t square fence.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

To answer your question look here.

http://thesharkguard.com/products.html


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## alittleoff (Nov 27, 2014)

Jessem clear cut table saw stock guides link:

http://www.jessemdirect.com/product_p/04301.htm



> @alittleoff - i have to admit I don t know what that is. Could you provide a link to more info?
> 
> Get the splitter installed, setup the saw and to really help out put a set of these on the fence also. Best money I ever spent.
> Gerald
> ...


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

Set your fence .003 wider at back of cut and use Microjib splitter you will be fine.

Be sure to measure off the same tooth.

Move the fence a couple times and repeat the measurements to be sure something's not wrong with fence.


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## Markmh1 (Mar 9, 2017)

.74 MM is .029" as was mentioned. My opinion is less than .003 is acceptable. IMO, the saw is unusable as is.

To convert MM to inches, multiply MM X .03937. This will take you anywhere you want to go. (We went to the moon in inches.)

Personally, I would align things with the table slot. You may have to invest in a dial indicator. An indicator that reads in .001 inches works well. These are not that expensive, the last one I bought was Japan made and cost around $30. Even if used infrequently, an indicator is good property.
Aligning the fence and blade with the slot will help with cross cutting too.

I run my blade differently than most others. For hardwoods, my blade projects about an inch above the workpiece. I watched a Forrester saw blade video, and this is what the demo guy recommended. He stated the blade runs cooler this way.
I'm also running a carbide tipped blade, not a Forrester yet. I've had enough of steel blades in my life. Steel blades dull quickly, burn, grab the work, and are noisy.

I hope this helps.

Mark


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## el_mustango (Oct 26, 2017)

@john smith-kudos to you for going back to it. Honestly, I'm sure if I'm going to. In my head I know that once I fix the alignment issues I should be fine, but I'm not sure I can ever feel safe and enjoy using it again, I mean, I got off so easy. I huge bruised abrasion on my gut, but otherwise I'm fine. It easily could have pulled my hand into the blade or the piece that kickedbacked could have gotten my in the face and put me in the hospital, like you.

@aliitleoff - thanks! I will def look into those.

I will be making sure that the blade is aligned to within less than .003. Thank you all for your help.


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## NoSpace (Jan 2, 2015)

A general comment: Stories like these make me glad that as a newbie, I bought an (outsourced built and tuned) saw off the shelf of big box store that came with a riving knife, ANTI-KICKBACK, and a blade guard. I used my DeWalt for a year without ever taking any of that stuff off, except for when using a very safe sled. I'd want to have significant experience with saw operation and feel before buying a used one from the 50s and fixing it up.

Specific comment: I've never had kickback (on table saw!), or felt I was in a dangerous situation, including the couple of times when it was hard to push the material through when I was learning the saw and realized I'd missed the notch and clamped the fence crooked, and it was pinching the wood at the back of the blade as it went through. Seems like something REALLY has to be wrong to shoot a hunk of wood so hard it leaves a bruise.

When kickback occurs, is there any warning, such as, the saw feels like it's working to hard for the cut-feel it binding up?

Was there anything in common between the two kickbacks-the same kind of wood / same kind of cut?

what kind of cuts caused the issue, ripping/crosscut? Was the bulk of the piece against the fence, or on the far side of the blade and cutting off a smaller piece against the fence?


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## jonah (May 15, 2009)

Not all kickbacks are the same, but many you can tell something is wrong before it happens. Sometimes if you have a really nasty piece of case-hardened or warped wood you can get a comparatively sudden pinch behind the blade.

I've stopped cuts plenty of times when something doesn't feel or sound right. That's why I always have the power switch near where I can bump it with my leg without letting go of the materials. Pushing right through such feelings is often the cause of kickback or other problems.

These kinds of problems are especially bad with cheaper saws that don't hold their fence alignment that well (like my old TS3650).


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## Carloz (Oct 12, 2016)

> It s dead simple with a dial indicator and a t square fence.
> 
> - jonah


Would not hurt to try before posting here if you actually have a saw (which I doubt now)
There are no fences that are so straight at all hights that would be under 0.003" . You can align it to 0.003" at one point but the spot next to it will be off twice that much so it makes it meaningless.


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## lizardhead (Aug 15, 2010)

I agree with jay. You need to be able to cut with confidence and to get that confidence you need experience and to get that experience you need to cut more wood. Not mentioned directly is the fact that the table needs to be aligned with the blade. Think like a saw, be like a saw, be one with the saw. I have given classes on woodworking and I can tell in a heartbeat whether or not a student has the skills needed for operating a table saw. If I have even an inkling of doubt, I will not allow them to proceed. No siree not on my watch. I have seen folks that know their way around the shop pretty well but a table saw scares them. And if it scares them, it frightens the hell out of me.


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## lizardhead (Aug 15, 2010)

One more thing on the matter. I believe that repetitive cutting is a time when you must be most consistent with your attention, not the least. Repetitiveness yields a perfect time to haphazardly get a hand in the path of a blade.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

> @alittleoff - i have to admit I don t know what that is. Could you provide a link to more info?
> 
> Get the splitter installed, setup the saw and to really help out put a set of these on the fence also. Best money I ever spent.
> Gerald
> ...


They work very similarly to yellow board buddies in holding boards down and as feather-boards:

http://www.grizzly.com/products/Board-Buddies-For-Table-Saws-Yellow/W1104


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## Ryndom (Jun 8, 2009)

You should be able to re-align the blade. Done it before on many different types of saw.

now I'll echo a lot of the advice given already

Your kick-backs are not related to that alignment:
1) Set up fence so that it is either parallel with blade - or opens up a fraction
2) Stand so-that you can control the wood all the way through the cut - you don't let go until wood is completely clear of blade
3) Use the right blade. * Use a ripping blade for ripping * - you should go with fewer teeth and maybe a thin blade, if your saw is under powered, I'm not a huge fan of the thin kerf blades, but might be worth a try.
4) Use a push stick that you can safely cut with the blade - and is big enough to keep your hands away from blade
5) Don't use a push stick if you don't have to, by that I mean if there is enough room for your hand to pass safely between fence and blade - you are better off without the push stick
6) If you are using a push stick, don't use it until the end of the wood is all the way on the table - otherwise you end up pushing down on the end - and the other end goes up, and rides on top of the blade - and causes kick-back
7) Invite an experienced woodworker to hang out while you cut some wood - and ask his/her advice on your technique
8) Go to local lumber yard - buy a cheep sheet of 4×8 foam, put in a crappy blade, and rip until you know you can control the wood. If you cut up the sheet - and still feeling uncomfortable - go buy another sheet.

**


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## Carloz (Oct 12, 2016)

> You should be able to re-align the blade. Done it before on many different types of saw.
> 
> now I ll echo a lot of the advice given already
> 
> ...


In fact most probably the misalignment is the only reason of that kickback. If you are scientifically inclined unalign your saw by 0.74 mm and see how far you go. My bet is you get a few kickbacks on the first day.


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## el_mustango (Oct 26, 2017)

@ryndom-is this a typo? "You're kick-backs are NOT related to that alignment"? Because it is now obvious to me that a misaligned blade is exactly the cause of the kickbacks I experienced. I like your idea of buying a sheet of foam and doing test cuts with that. Once I get the blade on this saw perfectly aligned to the miter slots and the fence I will do a ton of test cuts using foam just to make sure everything is good.


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## bigblockyeti (Sep 9, 2013)

> There are no fences that are so straight at all hights that would be under 0.003" . You can align it to 0.003" at one point but the spot next to it will be off twice that much so it makes it meaningless.
> 
> - Carloz


Your lack of experience with such precision doesn't mean it can't be done!


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## bndawgs (Oct 21, 2016)

Reading this thread reminds me of this video I came across where the guy purposely tried to get a kickback to happen. It makes me sick just to watch and think how close he came.


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

A riving knife does not guarantee a kickback.

There are other ways for that to happen anytime a piece of wood is between the blade and fence.

With experience you learn to read a board and anticipate issues and know when to abort a cut.


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

> @ryndom-is this a typo? "You re kick-backs are NOT related to that alignment"? Because it is now obvious to me that a misaligned blade is exactly the cause of the kickbacks I experienced. I like your idea of buying a sheet of foam and doing test cuts with that. Once I get the blade on this saw perfectly aligned to the miter slots and the fence I will do a ton of test cuts using foam just to make sure everything is good.
> 
> - el_mustango


I think ryndom means that the blade can be misaligned with the miter slot, 
but you can still align the fence with the blade to counter that, so it's not a problem,
(except when you use your miter gauge your blade wouldn't be parallel.) 
In other words, a misaligned fence is more the problem although everything should be aligned.

I wouldn't cut foam for testing, it has it's own properties and can grab, just because it's lightweight it still can be dangerous. If you do, be just as careful as if it was wood, don't be compliant just because it's foam.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

So what was that about beating dead horses?


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## builtinbkyn (Oct 29, 2015)

I don't know if it's been mentioned but the OP could look into setting up a rip fence similar to what is used in Europe and similar to what the Unifence was capable of doing.





View on YouTube


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

I noticed by your setup with the caliper clamped to the miter gauge, that you may not be getting an accurate reading front and back. Remember there is slop in the miter gauge bar in the slot. Make sure you hold the miter gauge tightly against the side of the slot when reading. The slop in the slot/bar can be .010" or more. Also make sure the flange on the arbor is clean and no burrs.


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## Ted78 (Dec 3, 2012)

Lots of reasonable advice here. Yes that error is plenty to cause kickback, (also the thinner the kerf on the blade the less room for error) 1. Check the blade itself, might be a warped blade. 2. check the fence (looks like you are measuring using the miter gauge not the fence so that takes the fence adjustment out of the equation but measure distance from rip fence to blade as well, or just make sure fence lines up perfectly with miter slot in table. 3. if those two things don't fix it then it's on to adjusting to arbor to line up with the table top.


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## jonah (May 15, 2009)

> It s dead simple with a dial indicator and a t square fence.
> 
> - jonah
> 
> ...


I can't decide if your statement is purposefully obtuse drivel, an ad-hominem attack, or if you've just never worked with a quality tool. My VSCT fence is an aluminum extrusion that is dead nuts flat and straight over the whole length. I can't even get a 0.0015 feeler gauge under it when it's against another dead flat surface (my LV straightedge and my jointer table). With the t-square design of the fence, I can adjust it by the thousandths of an inch at a time. It's really quite simple.

As another poster said, just because you personally can't do something doesn't mean it can't be done.


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

I can't say that I have ever seen a saw blade as flat as some claim that they can achieve in their alignment.

Your rig to measure distance from the blade can cause to blade to deflect if it is not very easily moved etc, the setup the OP uses I wonder about that one.


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

Here is a good source of information on blade wobble and how you could fix it if that is your problem.

http://woodgears.ca/saw_arbor/index.html


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## John_ (Sep 23, 2013)

Didn't read all the posts, so sorry if I am repeating some things…

Europe seems to have a lot tougher safety standards when it comes to table saws. For example, you can't use a dado blade in a table saw because the blade has to come to a full stop within 10 seconds. Now that is not really acceptable in the U.S. - but take a look at their table saw fence

A European type fence (and some older Delta's) are adjustable (front to back) so that the fence does not extend past the saw blade. That way the piece of wood cannot be trapped/pinched in between the blade and the fence - which I think is the reason for most kickbacks. They also have a high and low position which makes it easier when your working with very narrow cuts on the right side of the blade'

Another way you get kickbacks is not keeping the board firmly on the table. Remember, at the rear of the blade, the teeth are coming *up* from the table and if your not controlling the board properly, it can get up on top of the blade and get thrown back at you

Here is an example of what I am talking about a European type fence. The fence is in the 'low' position and does not extend past the blade. (it should actually stop where the gullets at the front of the blade are at table level, but this was a quick pic)









Remember - the dangerous part of the board is usually the one to the right of the blade. Make sure you are controlling it, not the offcut on the left side of the blade and be sure to push it all the way through and past the blade

Edited to add that I just watched the video builtinbkyn posted and it actually seems like a reasonable solution to the problem. Or maybe add some sort of 'spacer board' clamped to the left of the fence so once your workpiece clears the blade, it can't get trapped up against the fence


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## jonah (May 15, 2009)

The Unifence is the closest thing we've seen in the US to the European-style systems. It has both the "low mode" as well as the ability to slide. I've toyed with the idea of getting another, shorter aluminum extrusion to use with my VSCT fence, one that doesn't extend past the first third of the blade.


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

From Popular Woodworking:

Table Saw Safety: Why the British Think We're Crazy

The fence referenced as once available from this side of the Atlantic is the Delta Unifence.

Cheers,
Brad


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

> Europe seems to have a lot tougher safety standards when it comes to table saws. For example, you can t use a dado blade in a table saw because the blade has to come to a full stop within 10 seconds. Now that is not really acceptable in the U.S. - but take a look at their table saw fence
> 
> A European type fence (and some older Delta s) are adjustable (front to back) so that the fence does not extend past the saw blade.
> 
> ...


Looks like an SCM Sliding Table Saw?


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## Carloz (Oct 12, 2016)

> A riving knife does not guarantee a kickback.
> - rwe2156


I tend to agree! I


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## John_ (Sep 23, 2013)

> Looks like an SCM Sliding Table Saw?
> 
> - jbay


Close - their MiniMax line - this is one of their combination machines

There was a law (or some sort of requirement) in the U.S. that all table saws manufactured after 2014 or so required a riving knife?

I believe the riving knife/splitter will help prevent a certain type of kickback (certainly not a guarantee) in which the board closes up on the kerf after the blade and since the blade is rotating upward at the back, it grabs the board and throws it


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

> Looks like an SCM Sliding Table Saw?
> 
> - jbay
> 
> ...


Yeah, I should have said MiniMax
My buddy just bought their S315 Elite Sliding Saw. It looked exactly the same.


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## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

Maybe a riving knife does not completely eliminate kick back but it greatly reduces it.


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