# Where to start? Need some advice



## Aculous (Apr 7, 2015)

Well…so a little background. I have worked in Computers and for the man…for the past 10 years. SO went back to law school and we are both in a big transition period of our lives. I want to change careers, but I am having a hard time figuring out where to start.

I want to get into woodworking as a profession, cabinet making and furniture making seem interesting to me and I love getting out in the garage and working on projects. (I am acutely aware that something you love to do can turn to a nightmare if you have to do it for a living but I want to try this one)

The issue I am having is I am not sure where to start. I used to have my own house painting company in college and I am not afraid to work so I thought an apprenticeship or working in a shop as a part-timer would help me get some basic skills that I feel like I do not have. But am having a devil of a time finding anything. Basically there are 3-4 lumber yards in the area that I am thinking of calling and asking around about who may be a bigger customer or one close to me.

I live in the Maryland, Virginia, Pennsylvania area so I thought I would be able to find SOMETHING that I could work weekends or nights at to get a foundation. However so far my search has been short and unfruitful. I even went so far as to see if I could learn something from the amish community in my area. Their style of woodworking I think its interesting, joinery is beautiful when done correctly and especially when done by hand.

So after my long winded ramblings…ideas for entry level/part time work to learn to be a woodworker? cabinet/furniture building? Log cabin/structural carpentry? Other ideas?


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## TheWoodenOyster (Feb 6, 2013)

First off, I do this as a hobby and barely successful side job. So take my words with a grain of salt.

My first tip is don't quit your day job. Then everything really will turn into a nightmare. If you feel like you lack even a foundation of basic skills, now is not the time to quit a steady job. Do stuff on the side and see what you can learn. Let all your friends and family know you are doing it on the side and some odd jobs will start to pop up. Do those in combination with stuff you want to be doing for fun. You may be able to earn $5k or so for the first two or three years. At that point, assess the situation and maybe think about changing careers.

I have been down the "find your passion" path and it was a mistake. I think I tried to force it too much and wasn't willing to go into a bunch of debt. It sound to me like you are trying to force it a little bit.

In my opinion, learning on your own in your spare time is much better than being a slave in a shop or a lumberyard. The glory of working with your hands every day all day loses its glory when you are doing it for someone else for meager pay in poor conditions.

I hate to be a naysayer, but being a custom furniture maker will probably mean a SERIOUS step down in living conditions and a truckload of sacrifice (unless you have a sugar mama or a trust fund). Very few out there "make it big" and even the rock stars of woodworking still probably make about as much as you or I do now.

Take it slow and enjoy the hobby for a while. Then maybe think about a change.


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

Ditto


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

What's that saying I heard once something like behind every successful woodworker is a wife with a good job.Aj


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

Double Ditto with a pearl of wisdom from AJ


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## Aculous (Apr 7, 2015)

@thewoodenoyster
Point taken, and I am guessing it would have helped to have a little more detail. My thought is that I will transition over the course of 5-10 years from a part time gig to full time in a perfect world. I have no delusions about how vastly different it is to make your living doing essentially something that has been a hobby for you but I think its doable. And hah! no sugar mama for me, maybe an airtight prenup but thats it.

I am not a complete novice but I think my attitude of "well that sorta worked…I'll refine or fix it later" has really caught up with me and I'm not satisfied with making projects that just "work". I want them to look good and I want to be able to plan things out before I start, not just bang my head against a wall until I round the square peg for a round hole. My tool collection is a series of ok pieces but I regret probably 90% of them. I am over ambitious if nothing else.

And I am completely fine with "stepping down". I am currently on track to downsize my lifestyle and live on around 40K$, thats while supporting another person. So I think I'll be fine.

I would say you don't have to be a rock star to make money with woodworking, I think the biggest issue is getting your name and reputation out there. Which you can't do if you don't have jobs/projects to build a reputation on. Also selling things online has changed the landscape. I would like to stay in just woodworking but my guess is that if I were to make a go of it I would have to have multiple revenue streams, probably do some leather and Home theater/audio work. I design speakers as well so that could meld both. Point being I understand that woodworking is most likely not going to be the be all end all. It would be nice to have the demand that Maloof had in the 70s/80s but I am not sure that will happen again. People are putting more of a premium on higher quality, not mass produced items but I am not sure you could make a ton of money on low volume one offs.


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## daddywoofdawg (Feb 1, 2014)

use your vacation and other times to take weekend and weeklong woodworking classes,by some online classes,there are many real woodworking schools around.google woodworking schools and your area.
http://www.finewoodworking.com/how-to/article/woodworking-schools-directory.aspx


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## Aculous (Apr 7, 2015)

> What s that saying I heard once something like behind every successful woodworker is a wife with a good job.Aj
> 
> - Aj2


 Well, I guess I can dream a bit.


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## Aculous (Apr 7, 2015)

> use your vacation and other times to take weekend and weeklong woodworking classes,by some online classes,there are many real woodworking schools around.google woodworking schools and your area.
> http://www.finewoodworking.com/how-to/article/woodworking-schools-directory.aspx
> 
> - daddywoofdawg


I have been looking at a couple of things but haven't found any classes that looked worthwhile. I found two at my community college but they are so basic is insulting I feel like. As in…"learn how to use a jig saw…part 1 and 2"

But I have a techshop near me and I am wondering if I can take a class or two there. Or at Woodcraft, they have some good ones. I just learn a lot by doing OJT so I figured that would be a good way to get going on it.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

Red posted this the other day …






Years ago (~15ish +) I had the same dream of being a cabinetmaker, then I attended a talk by Kelly Mehler who is an exceptional craftsman and furniture builder. I saw his work then heard his story that woodworking barely paid the bills which is why he began writing articles and why he eventually opened a school. I've heard the same story from many others. It's not that you "can't" be successful, but most are starving woodworkers and talent and dedication are not enough.


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## TheWoodenOyster (Feb 6, 2013)

Aculous - I think the idea of doing some leather work and cabinet work on the side is a great plan. It would be HARD to bring in $40k on Woodworking alone. Supplemented with other things that have better profit margins (like home theater installation), you could make the lifestyle work.


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## codemonkeyww (Jun 30, 2014)

Aculous I too have the same dream but then reality hits! 

Anyways if you are in the Maryland area this is the best place to take good woodworking classes. I've taken a few there. Best of luck!


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

Do I understand that you are in the process of getting a law degree? Why not continue your hobby woodworking and get your law degree? If you still want to have a woodworking business you could make money on the side with a law degree. There must be plenty of things that you could do with a law degree and not necessarily practice as a lawyer would normally. Title searches and contracts comes to mind. Maybe doing research for a full time lawyer. I really don't know that much about it but I would think that a law degree would be a valuable thing to have.

helluvawreck aka Charles
http://woodworkingexpo.wordpress.com


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## Aculous (Apr 7, 2015)

> Aculous I too have the same dream but then reality hits!
> 
> Anyways if you are in the Maryland area this is the best place to take good woodworking classes. I ve taken a few there. Best of luck!
> 
> - codemonkeywoodworks


beautiful, I definitely check that out!


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## Aculous (Apr 7, 2015)

> Do I understand that you are in the process of getting a law degree? Why not continue your hobby woodworking and get your law degree? If you still want to have a woodworking business you could make money on the side with a law degree. There must be plenty of things that you could do with a law degree and not necessarily practice as a lawyer would normally. Title searches and contracts comes to mind. Maybe doing research for a full time lawyer. I really don t know that much about it but I would think that a law degree would be a valuable thing to have.
> 
> helluvawreck aka Charles
> http://woodworkingexpo.wordpress.com
> ...


hah! no Charles that would be my girlfriend. Shes finishing up law school.

I am more then likely going to be pursing a more non-traditional employment track. And I bet I will be working about 100 times harder then I do now but I think it will be worth it in the end as I will have more control over my time and a more fulfilling job. Right now I fight for my job daily, have to deal with literally everything I do being stolen, personnel issues, being fired and hired on a whim every couple of months while having to switch contracting companies, travel that is approved and then not paid for, clearance issues and the list goes on. A change needs to happen and so I am trying to feel out what will be the best for right now. I am not positive what that will be.

After working in commercial kitchens for years a food truck is lookin' good!

I think more of the issue now is focus more then anything. This conversation has been illuminating. I think there is a general pessimism initially when it comes to trying anything new or anything that seems out of the ordinary. I understand that and I know that for the most part in this circle that pessimism seems to be backed up by experience. Which completely changes my mind really, usually I would take what people are saying with a grain of salt because its hard to really know the source but I think for the most part what I am hearing is something that I am starting to hear a lot lately, that if you don't do high volume you can't get the price point right and if you do low volume people are paying for it. So really going it on your own without a established name is going to be next to impossible to live on.

I am crossing this one off the list of things that I think could be viable. Which is a little depressing but whatever I'll probably just use anything I sell to augment my tool collection or at most build a garage but its back to the drawing board for the most part.


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## Ocelot (Mar 6, 2011)

Hey now, wait a minute! You are crossing it off the list already!??

Yeah, probably this will sound harsh, but if you're ready to quit before you start just because a few strangers dampened your vision, well I just don't know what to say.

I'm going to go against the grain here because I think I understand where you're coming from.

I would advise jumping in with both feet - put yourself deeply in debt - and then work your tail off.

First thing: Find a good woodworking school. You say you have been "in computers". Well, you know the difference then between the usual career track of somebody with a MS in computer engineering from, lets say, Stanford - and the career track of a guy who just fiddled around with computers and figured it out on his own. Of course, there are tremendous success stories from people with no formal education, but that is not the usual result. A good woodworking school will also connect you with the kind of people who can help you get business - or get a job if you work for somebody else. And, I think, working for somebody else is not all that bad a plan. If you work for somebody else, you let them buy the tools.

So, go into debt paying for education, not buying tools.

That's the way I would do it.

There is no try, only *do*.

-Paul


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Aculous
Welcome to Ljs
I always tell folks that want to be professional woodworkers #1 don't quite your day job and #2 Don't wreck a great hobby by making it a business. Let me add that if you love woodworking learn all you can and make what you want rather than what a customer wants, After a time and a lot of experience gained you may want to explore the professional end of woodworking,but for now enjoy the freedom of learning and making what you like.
There are a lot of great blogs here on Ljs super online classes and in person classes you can take to further your skills.
Charles Neil has a great online classes and offers some in person classes too and he's in Virginia. Best of luck to you.

http://www.cn-woodworking.com/


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## Ocelot (Mar 6, 2011)

Hey, I might just be talking myself into it, but I'm 50-something and have young children at home, so it would not work for me.


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## Aculous (Apr 7, 2015)

> Hey now, wait a minute! You are crossing it off the list already!??
> 
> Yeah, probably this will sound harsh, but if you re ready to quit before you start just because a few strangers dampened your vision, well I just don t know what to say.
> 
> ...


Thanks Paul,

And unlike the delicate flowers that we seem to have in our society these days your comments are far from harsh, constructive criticism is just that, constructive and I take it as such. IMHO there is nothing worse then someone telling you how great you are, you can't learn from that. And I never said I was going to quit, I have always enjoyed woodworking so I will keep doing it. Whether just for fun or for a career. The only difference this conversation has got me thinking about is the fact that making a living SOLELY off of woodworking may be too tall of an order at the present moment. Which backs up a thought that I had early on when I started thinking about the possibility of changing careers. Sometimes the most important thing to do is sit back and be patient in a bad market, wait it out until things come back around because they almost always do.

So! (sorry for being long-winded) What are some of the more respected trade schools when it comes to woodworking? I am not looking into the Devry or Strayer of the woodworking world either.


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## Ocelot (Mar 6, 2011)

Honestly I don't know about the schools.

There is a guy who used to post here under the name of "Rogue", who has taken that track and seems to do well. One of the things I notice is that high-end work is "arty". You have to know the language and talk the talk for the kind of clients that can pay enough for it to be a good living. You should learn that sort of thing at a good school - not just techniques, but ways of talking about the things you are making.

http://lumberjocks.com/Rogue/projects


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## Aculous (Apr 7, 2015)

> Honestly I don t know about the schools.
> 
> There is a guy who used to post here under the name of "Rogue", who has taken that track and seems to do well. One of the things I notice is that high-end work is "arty". You have to know the language and talk the talk for the kind of clients that can pay enough for it to be a good living. You should learn that sort of thing at a good school - not just techniques, but ways of talking about the things you are making.
> 
> ...


Meh, I think I'll do ok. I am more artist/creative then technical. I used to be an art minor believe it or not and I think I have a pretty good handle on bringing something new into the world or leveraging creativity. Thats not my issue, its more the transferring 2D-3D and more importantly finishing and consistency. I have started to get into modeling a piece before I actually turn on a saw or pick out wood, that aspect has helped me.


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## Aculous (Apr 7, 2015)

> Aculous
> Welcome to Ljs
> I always tell folks that want to be professional woodworkers #1 don t quite your day job and #2 Don t wreck a great hobby by making it a business. Let me add that if you love woodworking learn all you can and make what you want rather than what a customer wants, After a time and a lot of experience gained you may want to explore the professional end of woodworking,but for now enjoy the freedom of learning and making what you like.
> There are a lot of great blogs here on Ljs super online classes and in person classes you can take to further your skills.
> ...


All points taken, I am definitely look at these when I get home from work. Looks interesting from what I can see.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

Marc Adams' school has a master's (extended) program you might consider.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

If you want a chance to make a good living and have steady work, go into architectural woodworking/millwork and/or cabinetry. It won't be romantic days of pushing a hand plane, it'll be long days of listening to power machinery, managing employees, and fighting for contracts. The only successful (earning above a living wage) woodworkers I've known, do one or both of those types of woodworking. There is also carpentry, always work for a skilled carpenter.


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## Aculous (Apr 7, 2015)

I was thinking a mix between carpentry, cabinetry and furniture building. I believe that mix would give me more steady work just about anywhere, I have a engineering mind so it wouldn't be that far of a leap. And I am more a realist then a romantic  But most important to me is to be satisfied with the work I am doing and to be able to guide my future better, my actions contributing to my future.



> If you want a chance to make a good living and have steady work, go into architectural woodworking/millwork and/or cabinetry. It won t be romantic days of pushing a hand plane, it ll be long days of listening to power machinery, managing employees, and fighting for contracts. The only successful (earning above a living wage) woodworkers I ve known, do one or both of those types of woodworking. There is also carpentry, always work for a skilled carpenter.
> 
> - Rick M.


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## Racer2007 (Jan 13, 2011)

> use your vacation and other times to take weekend and weeklong woodworking classes,by some online classes,there are many real woodworking schools around.google woodworking schools and your area.
> http://www.finewoodworking.com/how-to/article/woodworking-schools-directory.aspx
> 
> - daddywoofdawg
> ...


I have been a Member of my Local TechShop for almost two years now and the clases they offer are Mostly just for the basics of the different machines they offer for your use and these are Really Basic clases and are not really Cheap, but you have to take them before you can use the machines and then you have to pay the fees for Membership so it pays to take the classes first then buy the membership so your not paying for something you can't really use yet since you can take all the classes you want without being a Member. That said , they do some times offer other clases that teach you how to do other things but WookWorking in my area at least has not been one of them. I think that WoodCraft would most likely have classes geared more towards what you want to learn than TechShop but then TechShop has the Tools you need to use for that kind of woodworking , at least the Major tools like table saw , jointer , planer CNC for wood Etc. . But don't plan on finding much in the Hand Tool area to use because what is there is not very welll maintained from what I have seen and I have 3 TechShops in the SF Bay Area that I have been to and didn't see one chisel at any of them that didn't look like it had been used for a Screwdriver.
Finding a School that offers classes in Fine Woodworking and then getting in as an Apprentice may be your best and fastest route.
So good luck in your plan and let us know how things go .


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## Puzzleman (May 4, 2010)

Seems to me all of the discussion has been about skills and doing the woodworking.

I have learned that the far bigger topic of doing your own thing is the marketing. Most people here just seem to push it under the rug and will worry about it another day. In my experience, it is about marketing, marketing and marketing. I don't care how good you are or how cheesy your product is, it is about selling it. I know of a small family owned company that they make cutouts in MDF, apply glue and glitter and then sell them wholesale. They keep a cnc busy 8 hours a day just cutting designs. they make money at it because they know how to sell it, stay in constant touch with their vendors and stay on top of trends and make changes accordingly. I know of another large company and all they do is make wood signs. The cut the wood, edge it, paint it, apply the words then distress it. They are so busy that they have over 25 employees. In both of these examples, the companies are doing low tech wood products but they know how to market and sell it.

In my personal situation, I developed my product line (puzzles) and streamlined the production of it. Another low tech wood product. Then I learned how to market and sell it. Now I spend more time and energy marketing, selling, designing and management than actually doing wood working.

If you can't market and sell it, I don't care how fantastic your work is. You must be able to market it and sell it to make money. So, in my opinion, you need to think more about a concept and how will you sell it. That is where you make the money at, sales.


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## Ocelot (Mar 6, 2011)

Puzzleman is right!

That's why I say it's not a bad thing to work for somebody else.

-Paul


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

> Hey now, wait a minute! You are crossing it off the list already!??
> 
> Yeah, probably this will sound harsh, but if you re ready to quit before you start just because a few strangers dampened your vision, well I just don t know what to say.
> 
> ...


Making a living in ww'ing is a not the same as computers.

Yes, follow your dream but keep your head below the clouds!!

People gotta eat…...


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