# Table Top Issues



## Schon77 (Feb 18, 2015)

Hello all this is my first post on the site.

I have been making wood furniture for the last 2 years for a hobby and make certain pieces of furniture for friends and family. My main problem is that my table tops are not seamless. I have used wood filler, but I hate the look. I am using #2 pine from Lowe's and it is not the straightest, but I just got a table saw so I was planning to rip the pieces so that they are flush. Please let me know of any way to overcome this obstacle with the tools I currently have which are miter saw, table saw, circular saw, drill and disc sander. I use a kreg jig to combine the boards.

Any advice would be great!

Thanks,

Schon77


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

Had the same problem. Some old Stanley baileys remedied that issue.


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## WhyMe (Feb 15, 2014)

You won't achieve a totally seamless top using bread board ends. Bread board ends need to float to allow for expansion and contraction of the main top. To get seamless tops without bread board end requires planing and jointing of the boards and a lot of finish sanding. No wood filler should be needed. And #2 pine is not the best material to use for fine table tops. Pine is okay for rustic stuff.


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## jmartel (Jul 6, 2012)

How are you attaching the breadboard ends on the tops? If it's with glue and a kreg jig, the top will crack and fail from wood movement. Be aware of that.


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## mnguy (Feb 4, 2009)

Bread board construction is intended to keep the table top flat, not gapless. Like WhyMe said, if you want zero / minimal gap between boards, you need to joint your edges before glue up and also let your stock acclimate between machining stages. Using splines between the boards will help reduce gapping.


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## bondogaposis (Dec 18, 2011)

Lots of issues here.
1) Using home center pine for furniture. They dry construction grade lumber to something like 20% moisture content, not near low enough for furniture. Buy your wood from a hardwood dealer that caters to the furniture cabinet industry or allow time for your wood to reach 6% or lower moisture content.

2) Your construction methods don't appear to allow for wood movement. Wood changes in width w/ every change in humidity, but not in length. So when you pocket screw the ends of boards to the breadboard end gaps are inevitable or splits will occur as the wood dries.

3) I recommend that you joint your edges and glue up parallel boards to form a single unit, forget the pocket screws, you don't need them. Don't use breadboard ends until you learn to construct them to allow for movement.  Here is a link, there are many others.

4) Learn how to attach a table top to allow for wood movement. Here is another link.


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## Schon77 (Feb 18, 2015)

Thank you for all the responses!

TheFridge- Did you just hand plane it to death?

WhyMe- Yeah I have noticed it is impossible to get the seamless with the bread boards. Would it be possible if I didn't use them?

Jmartel- I attach the breadboard with the kregjig to the rest of the tabletop, I have made quite a few tables and I have never had a problem with cracking or anything of that nature. Though I do understand that it can happen that is why I am seeking advice.

mnguy- What do you mean joint your edges and what are splines?

bondogaposis- Yes I know the wood is not the best, but it is what my family and friends can afford. When you refer to this movement are you just alarmed with the bread board because it is fixed? What clamps and glue would you recommend for making the parallel boards a single unit? I am unaware of the jointing you are referring to can you go into further detail please. Thanks for the helpful links by the way.

I will no longer be using breadboards, but I still want to get that seamless tabletop, though I don't have a planer. I still plan to rip the round edges off the wood, but can someone expand on the process of combining the pieces without a planer because all the videos I watch have someone using a planer over 30 times.

- Schon77


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## jdh122 (Sep 8, 2010)

My thoughts:
In addition to rethinking the breadboard ends, which are not always necessary to keep a tabletop flat if it's not too wide and if it's attached right, you need to joint the boards. This means use either a handplane or a jointer to get the two boards very straight along their edge and perpendicular to their face. As Bondo said, no need to use screws, glue alone is (way more than) strong enough. 
Lumber quality is an issue too. You can certainly use construction lumber if you pick through it but: you need to let it dry in your shop or house for a month or so and, because the wood will probably warp a bit you also need to be able to straighten it (this is done on the jointer, or else with handplanes). The most important thing to look for when you buy construction lumber for woodworking is that the board does not have the pith (middle of the tree) inside it. In fact one of the best ways to get good wood from construction lumber is to buy 2X10s that DO have the pith and then rip it into two narrower boards by removing the pith. 
So, basically it comes down to the fact that you need to have some way to joint boards. The most common way is a jointer or a longish handplane. People have also rigged up routertables and tablesaws to do jointing but I have no experience with either.
To combine the pieces: you run the edge of the two boards you want to glue together through the jointer as many times as it takes until it has touched everywhere along the board. Apply glue on both edges and clamp. 
Hope this helps a bit…


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## RogerM (Oct 31, 2011)

First, forget about making nice "seamless" table tops with construction lumber from Loews

Another approach I used on a similar project was to forget the seamless approach and burn it with a propane torch. Wire brush after burning the stain it if you want some color then coat it with semi gloss polyurethane.


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## Schon77 (Feb 18, 2015)

Any suggestions on clamps or brands of glue? The tip about using the 2×10 instead is a great idea, never thought of that.


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## jdh122 (Sep 8, 2010)

Any glue will do, basically. All are stronger than the wood. Just get regular carpenter's yellow glue, any brand. It cleans up with water, gives you a decent amount of time to work.
For clamps I would suggest starting with pipe clamps. You buy the clamp assembly and then buy some black pipe separately in the length you need. But just about any type of bar clamp will do too.


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## Bonka (Apr 13, 2012)

In addition to pipe clamps I find cauls a necessity when clamping panels.


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## Schon77 (Feb 18, 2015)

Cauls are used to sandwich the boards together to reduce movement up and down?

-Schon77


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## Ghidrah (Jan 20, 2015)

Pine can be used, I use sugar pine often very stable and expensive probably equal to oak and fir, it's a couple 3 steps above #2 which for most parts framing lumber. Jointing is a must for seamlessness between field boards, they can expand all they want as long as the grain pattern runs the same direction and the joint and glue up was done properly.

Biscuits and splines do help big time but lots more work. If the boards are flat sawn their placement should be alternating growth ring up then next one down to minimize over all cupping in the future. Clamping must be from alternate sides, (top bottom top bottom) to even out pressure even with parallel faced bar clamps. Dividing the surface into 1/3rds Clamping 3 to 6 boards at a time is easier, especially if you're going to caul the ends for alignments sake then glue up the 3 and sand the surface.

As everyone else has stated bread boards need to accommodate expansion that said there will be times of the yr when the ends may look wrong. If you get the mat down to 12 15% then seal it really good it will resist some of the expansion from heat and humidity. but not entirely.

P.S. the table looks nice, looks like it can take a beating and keep on ticking


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## Schon77 (Feb 18, 2015)

To everyone I will no longer do bread boards, I understand why now. I will wait till I have the proper skill and equipment to do that.

Thank you for the compliment on my table I appreciate that. Yes, I kind of over engineer all my tables. Though I do sleep well at night knowing my furniture will never break in a f4 tornado. This is a must in Oklahoma.

I bought some 3 ft clamps and wood glue so I will be playing around with the methods everyone has explained. Does anyone have any tips for using a table saw to make square and flush boards? I will be practicing tomorrow with the table saw I just got but some tips would be great.

Thank you all for all the responses and I will post pictures of what I try tomorrow.

-Schon77


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## jdh122 (Sep 8, 2010)

Here's one explanation of how to joint on a tablesaw:

http://www.woodworkingtips.com/etips/2005/01/28/wb/


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## hotbyte (Apr 3, 2010)

There are lots of good "articles" on gluing up panels like this one from Family Handyman

Hopefully, this should be link to a Google search


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## RogerM (Oct 31, 2011)

I think you are beginning to understand what joiners and planers are for. To get good "seamless" joints you need relatively dry, stable wood that is flat, square, and straight. This usually requires a joiner and planer but can also be done by good hand planes which takes a lot more effort. Perhaps a good joiner plane (maybe a Stanley or Lie Nielsen if you can afford it) would be a good investment for you. As noted above, biscuits and splines help but in my opinion are generally not worth the effort in table tops.

Good bread board ends can be challenging and are used to allow expansion and contraction across the table top which appears to defeat your goal of a seamless joint. As an alternative you could attach a strong straight member underneath of your table top with slots for screws to attach them to the top and allow for expansion and contraction.

As for glue, I usually use Titebond III which is easy to use, is waterproof ,and very reliable. For good parallel clamps Bessey,Jorgenson, or Jet clamps are usually the clamps of choice but good 3/4" pipe clamps will also work in most cases.

Hope this helps a bit. Good luck on your efforts.


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## Schon77 (Feb 18, 2015)

Clarification time, I understand with what I have I can't get that seamless table top, but what I have now are gaps that require quite a bit of wood filler. I am just trying to get the boards to be a little friendlier with each other so not as much wood filler is necessary. Sorry for any confusion or frustration my efforts have caused with the misunderstanding.

I just hate those stupid crumbs falling in the gaps and I hate using so much wood filler.

-Schon77


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## Woodbum (Jan 3, 2010)

Ask that good looking shop helper you have. He/she should have some ideas. Nice looking dog!


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## hotbyte (Apr 3, 2010)

You could try that bar top epoxy. If cracks go clean through maybe something on underside to hold it until dry.

If cracks are not full length, maybe butterfly style joint where you route out around crack to inlay another piece of patch wood.

If cracks are from your breadboards preventing appropriate wood movement, maybe redo them to allow movement.


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## Schon77 (Feb 18, 2015)

Woodbum- I would ask her, but she is to busy running away with my lumber.

hotbyte- I am going to try the jointing and glue method first then I will go from there.

I have been working on some fire pit benches and used glue for the first time. How much strength is glue suppose to have after 30 minutes? I may or may not have broke the glue off after 30 minutes messing with the boards, though I just re-glued and sent a screw through as well. I am currently waiting for glue to dry on the last pair of legs. Gluing everything requires a lot of patience….

Bellow are some pictures of the clamps I bought in action.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

Couple of points, most of the advice above is good, some is well intentioned but off the mark. You can make seamless table tops from any kind of wood, regardless of where you buy it, here's how: Construction lumber is too wet when you buy it. Allow it to set for awhile, weeks at least, months are better, years even better. Cut it to rough size. Joint one edge and flatten, then rip to width. Sticker and allow to set for a day or two more, then repeat-cut to final size, joint one edge, flatten, rip to final width. Then do your glue up. Alternating growth rings is an old wives tale. I've done it both ways, it makes no difference. But, if you do alternate growth rings and the top warps there is no way to fix it short of taking it apart and flattening then refinishing again. If the growth rings mostly face the same way and it cups, you can fix it without major surgery just by kerfing the bottom and reattaching the table; or sometimes you can just use battens. One other very important step, finish both the top and bottom of the table equally. If you put 2 coats of finish on the top, use 2 coats on the bottom. And alternate, apply 1 top coat, then 1 bottom coat, then top, then bottom.

Tables 2 & 3 will have expansion issues, it's just bad design. Look at blanket chests, chests of drawers, and doors and notice how the grain direction runs. Wood will move mostly across it's width. In table 3 you've got the width running the length of the table meaning the table will try to get longer or shorter based on relative humidity but your side pieces have grain running perpendicular to the center and will try to prevent movement, somethings going to give and eventually break. You've already learned about breadboard ends so I won't rehash that.

If you don't have all the equipment to do the steps above and the knowledge on how to do it, you really shouldn't be selling tables. Make them for your own use while you learn but otherwise you are taking advantage of people by selling them something that will probably only last a few years before starting to come apart.


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## Schon77 (Feb 18, 2015)

Thank you for the inspiration on getting that seamless table top. I will buy better lumber if I was going to go through all of that just for good boards that would be seamless when jointed. I do understand some steps are required no matter what lumber you are using. The reason I use my precious pine from Lowes is because it is cheap and I can make mistakes and learn and it is not the end of the world. The steps you posted are helpful though for the future.

A few questions I had from reading your response. When do these expansion issues normally happen? Is the time frame around the first month, next season or year? Does it happen as often with soft wood as it does with hard wood? Does humidity have a factor? When it does happen to one of my builds I will get some first hand experience on the issue and understand a little better about the issue. I will also post some pictures so I can help others like many of the members did for me.

I don't sell my tables because truthfully I don't believe they are up to the grade I would like to put my name on yet. Though I do build stuff for friends and family if requested because it fuels my hobby and I learn more and more in each build. The last thing I would want to do is take advantage of people.

Thank you for your response Rick.

-Schon77


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

Go on the Internet and read some about equilibrium moisture content and wood. 
Below is a good little tool to help you find out what moisture content you can use in your projects in your area.

Click here


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> Lots of issues here.
> 1) Using home center pine for furniture. They dry construction grade lumber to something like 20% moisture content, not near low enough for furniture. Buy your wood from a hardwood dealer that caters to the furniture cabinet industry or allow time for your wood to reach 6% or lower moisture content.
> 
> 2) Your construction methods don t appear to allow for wood movement. Wood changes in width w/ every change in humidity, but not in length. So when you pocket screw the ends of boards to the breadboard end gaps are inevitable or splits will occur as the wood dries.
> ...


I agree with everything you say except with the 6 % moisture content. How do you get wood down to 6% in most areas of the United States. Maybe in Arizona or Death Valley.

I have wood that been in my shop or house for years and it never get below 9% and usually it's 10 to 12 %


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## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

> Alternating growth rings is an old wives tale. I ve done it both ways, it makes no difference. But, if you do alternate growth rings and the top warps there is no way to fix it short of taking it apart and flattening then refinishing again. If the growth rings mostly face the same way and it cups, you can fix it without major surgery just by kerfing the bottom and reattaching the table; or sometimes you can just use battens.
> - Rick M.


Alternating growth rings is definitely not an old wives tail, with air dried lumber, or kiln dried(although KD is more stable).
Hardwood, softwood, furniture grade, or construction grade, if it's flat cut, it all cups to some degree, some species worse than others.
Seasonal climate extremes are also a big determining factor in how much a piece of flat cut lumber will cup. Some climates are fairly stable, and that may lessen, and in some cases, 'nearly' negate cupping, but most climates aren't so forgiving that proper joinery techniques can just be ignored.
An interior, climate controlled environment may lessen these effects as well, but not negate them.


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## Schon77 (Feb 18, 2015)

Highest and Lowest Humidity
Below are the monthly and yearly averages for maximum and minimum humidity levels in Oklahoma. The hours when a month's highest and lowest humidity readings usually occur are given in local standard time.
Daily high and low relative humidity (%) averages in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
High Time Low Time
77.1 6 am January 50.7 3 pm
77.3 6 am February 50.5 3 pm
75.4 6 am March 45.8 3 pm
76.5 6 am April 45.2 3 pm
82.7 6 am May 51.2 3 pm
83.5 6 am June 50.7 3 pm
79.8 6 am July 43.5 3 pm
80.1 6 am August 43.4 3 pm
83.4 6 am September 48.9 3 pm
78.9 6 am October 46.0 3 pm
79.3 6 am November 49.5 3 pm
77.6 6 am December 51.8 3 pm
79.3 6 am Annual 48.1 3 pm

These are the normal humidity levels for each month for OKC, Oklahoma.


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## bondogaposis (Dec 18, 2011)

I agree with everything you say except with the 6 % moisture content. How do you get wood down to 6% in most areas of the United States. Maybe in Arizona or Death Valley.

I have wood that been in my shop or house for years and it never get below 9% and usually it's 10 to 12 %

Yeah, the 6% number I used is at the very low end. I used it to illustrate a point that construction lumber has a lot more moisture content than furniture grade lumber. Six to eight percent moisture content is what most hardwood manufacturers use as the target moisture content for wood coming out of the dry kiln for wood that is intended for interior use. Of course it then reaches EMC (equilibrium moisture content) with wherever it is shipped or stored. For further reading here is a link to Chapter twelve of the Wood Handbook by William T. Simpson


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## hotbyte (Apr 3, 2010)

I thought your clarification was stating you were looking for a way to better correct existing gaps without wood filler on tables you had already built. My bad.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

> A few questions I had from reading your response. When do these expansion issues normally happen?
> - Schon77


I recommend this book, http://lumberjocks.com/reviews/4107
It's cheap (or free if you search the internet). Wood expands or contracts with changes in humidity. So if you go from outside to inside, or as seasons change.


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## MikeThrockmorton (Nov 4, 2013)

A word of caution in re ripping/jointing on table saws.

If the board to be ripped does not lay flat on the table and you push it through the saw anyway, you run the risk of the board binding on the blade resulting in the blade throwing the board back at you. Real fast.

Can also happen (in many other ways as well) if the board has unrelieved stresses that are released by the cut causing the kerf to close on the blade.

You may already be aware of these issues (google table saw kickback).

Its considered to be an undesirable result.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

> Alternating growth rings is definitely not an old wives tail, with air dried lumber, or kiln dried(although KD is more stable).
> 
> - Tony_S


The key to a flat top is in proper construction, lumber preparation and finishing. I'm not sure where the idea of alternating growth rings started. I did a quick Google book search and couldn't find any reference older than the 80's. A quick check on my older woodworking books didn't yield any references to alternating growth rings. Alternating rings intuitively seems correct but doesn't stand up to scrutiny nor does it bear out in practice. One problem is the theory assumes all the boards will cup equally. If they don't, the cancellation effect doesn't happen and you can end up with a warped top that cannot be fixed. In the best case scenario the cancellation effect does happen and you get a top that is reasonably flat, but who wants a reasonably flat table? No one. There are enough professional woodworkers who have said that grain orientation is less important than matching grain for appearance that at this point there really is no reason to perpetuate this fable. Just to clear up my position, I'm saying you should orient your boards for the best grain match and not worry about growth ring orientation.


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## bondogaposis (Dec 18, 2011)

> Highest and Lowest Humidity
> Below are the monthly and yearly averages for maximum and minimum humidity levels in Oklahoma. The hours when a month s highest and lowest humidity readings usually occur are given in local standard time.
> Daily high and low relative humidity (%) averages in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
> High Time Low Time
> ...


That is all well and good but you should be concerned with inside humidities which, if you have central heating, should be considerably less in winter when you are heating your house.


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## RogerM (Oct 31, 2011)

Schon - Below are the photos we discussed:


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## Schon77 (Feb 18, 2015)

That finish is beautiful, pine correct?


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