# Walnut table top finish problems



## vhcconstruction1 (Jul 2, 2018)

Hello all,
I just made a walnut table for a client now I am in a nightmare.. for finishing, I did a french polish. Now I have done many of these but this one is not acting as it should. I can't for sure say how many rubs of the shellac I did, but guessing around 120 to 150, then wet sanded to 12000. Let it cure for a couple days, waxed it and delivered it. Well it is taking on water rings like I have never seen before. One of his coasters even left foot marks into the finish. I don't know what happened I guess. It seems so soft but then again feels like it always has before. So now I plan to go pick it up to redo it.

He wants poly on it now. I explained that it would not have as nice of a finish, but he wants it indestructible. So should I sand to bare wood, re oil then poly it? Can I just sand of all the marks then poly over the shellac? Or should I sand smooth then epoxy it?


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## bondogaposis (Dec 18, 2011)

There are 2 problems with shellac as a table surface, one is that alcohol will dissolve it, so if an adult beverage gets on there it will eat into the surface. The second problem is heat, that leaves a nice ring if someone sets a hot tea cup or coffee cup on it. Coating it with poly will solve the first problem but it may not solve the second problem as the shellac will still react to the heat underneath the poly. Unfortunately for you, stripping and refinishing with poly is going the safest bet. You sure don't want it to come back again. I wouldn't epoxy it, oil base poly is plenty durable enough. I would never French polish a table that was to be sold, just too fragile a surface. Too bad, because it looks like you did an outstanding job.


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## vhcconstruction1 (Jul 2, 2018)

Thanks for the reply, Normally I would have used poly but the client wanted the french polish, He had plenty of warnings. Thanks for the finish compliment, I had to have a couple cocktails before I took the alcohol to it. But have it stripped down, re-sanded and oiled with a coat of poly already on.


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

Please tell us you didn't use shellac from a can. 
To remove your finish just soak up some alcohol in a rag and start wiping it will come right off no sanding.
It will also be a nice surface because most likely all the pores will be filled.
Take precautions using that much alcohol it's not good to breathe or get absorbed in your skin.
It's a very nice looking table 
Good luck


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## LesB (Dec 21, 2008)

I tend to agree with Bondo. But a good quality water base poly will also work. There are some made for floors that are particularly hard.

Poly will work over the Shellac ….If sanding removes the water rings I would do that and then apply 3 to 4 coats of poly sanding lightly with 400 grit between each coat. Each coat should dry for 24 hours. On the final coat (after it has dried for at least 72 hours at 70 degrees or more) I would do a final wax polish using the White 3M pad to apply the wax and then hand buff with a soft cloth. It should look almost as good as the French Polish you worked so hard on.

You didn't mention what "oil" you used as the first coat but I doubt you need to add more because most oil soaks into the wood and so it should still be there if you don't sand into the wood surface. If the water marks reached the wood you may need to treat them with some stain to correct the color. 
Good luck.


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## vhcconstruction1 (Jul 2, 2018)

I used boiled linseed oil, I gave it a quick sanding after stripping so oiled it to even everything out, looks great so far.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

If he was warned, I would charge him for the labor, but not materials.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> If he was warned, I would charge him for the labor, but not materials.
> 
> - Woodknack


Dunno. It sounds like the french polish was flawed. It might have the shortcomings people mentioned, but to have a coaster sink into it just isn't right. Obviously, the shellac wasn't hardened. Either he used a product that was way out of date, or he built the finish too thick too fast.


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## vhcconstruction1 (Jul 2, 2018)

I think I built up the layers of shellac too quick, I did it over a period of 4 days. The shellac was freshly made with a new can of alcohol. When I picked it up I did some testing with cold and hot water, it did take a bit time to get any discoloring. Scratch test was pretty hard. I really think that I also delivered it way too soon, should have let it cure longer. I'll get the poly looking good though. As far as the customer, he has no problem paying, he has been a loyal customer for at least 15 years.


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## vhcconstruction1 (Jul 2, 2018)

I used Liberon to a 1-1/2 cut


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

> I used Liberon to a 1-1/2 cut
> 
> Your first mistake was you didn't take the time for the shellac to harden.I would have taken at least a month maybe more depending on the weather.
> Your second mistake was the boiled linseed oil it will take at least a month or more to dry what a shame.


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## vhcconstruction1 (Jul 2, 2018)

I have been putting shellac over linseed oil for at least 15 years, never have had a problem. I have even sprayed and brushed poly over linseed oil as well.


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

Oh wow that's interesting. Your knowledge and skills are very high.


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## builtinbkyn (Oct 29, 2015)

The client said "French polish" or wanted a piano like finish? Why didn't you go with lacquer?


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## vhcconstruction1 (Jul 2, 2018)

Oh wow that's interesting. Your knowledge and skills are very high.  ??? what is this Kindergarten? I just stated that I have not had any problems using linseed oil in the past. With your obvious vast knowledge of what I do or do not know, what is your process of using oil? And as far as my knowledge and skills, I will never be a master craftsman, because in every thing we do there might be a different way of doing it that will always come along or come up from the past. If a person believes they are the best and know it all, then they stopped learning, they just resort to ridiculing others for their misgivings. So if you want to talk about using oil in finishing like a adult, I would love to have that conversation with you.


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

Take it easy vh, I don't use linseed oil I remember it weeping out for weeks plus it just another fire hazard with the rags. My comment was definitely snarky and I apologize. I will try to take this forum more seriously so I don't step on others that might be joining the community.
You table looks great and we need more work like that here.
Once again I apologize for being a jerk.
I will punish myself by sitting in the hot sun for one hour without water.:}


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## MarioF (Feb 6, 2009)

Could be remaining wax or old shellac, stripping it might work but if you use the same batch you might end up where you started. So if your customer wants poly, sand it down evenly with a 320 disk and apply your favorite poly, rub it out nice and smooth and problem fixed. Shellac will make an excellent sealer and bond perfectly to the poly. French polish is better left for smaller and less abused surfaces, beautiful table by the way….


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## vhcconstruction1 (Jul 2, 2018)

lol Aj2, not hot sun now, maybe no cocktails for hour at happy hour, lol. I have had that happen once or twice using it on Cedar.


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## UncleBuck (Mar 7, 2018)

beautiful table nice work don't know anything to help just wanted to tell you good job hope the poly fixes it and the customer is happy.


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## squazo (Nov 23, 2013)

I use poly as a French polish. The only difference is the wait. Takes about 10 days to get 30 ish coats on. I do about 5 thinned coats a day for 2 days. Then take a day off, rinse repeat. Then let is sit in a oxygen filled garbage bag or whatever it fits in. For like 5 days, about 25 days worth of air time. And then polish it.

You must check your 02 levels daily. Small 02 bottles are cheap.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> I use poly as a French polish. The only difference is the wait. Takes about 10 days to get 30 ish coats on. I do about 5 thinned coats a day for 2 days. Then take a day off, rinse repeat. Then let is sit in a oxygen filled garbage bag or whatever it fits in. For like 5 days, about 25 days worth of air time. And then polish it.
> 
> You must check your 02 levels daily. Small 02 bottles are cheap.
> 
> - squazo


There's no such thing as French polishing with polyurethane, or really anything other than shellac for that matter.

https://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/flexner-on-finishing-woodworking-blogs/cant-french-polish-polyurethane


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

I agree with Rich, buffing a poly finish is about as close as it gets. It can be just as difficult because if you pass thru one coat it will show. That's what I remember


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

> If he was warned, I would charge him for the labor, but not materials.
> 
> - Woodknack
> 
> ...


Probably just needs a little more drying time. Set it in the sun for a few hours. Heat from a hot cup could transfer through the coaster and soften the finish. I don't think the shellac was flawed, I think the customer asked for French polish then treated it like a piece of store bought furniture. But if he asked for it to be stripped and some other finish applied, he's going to pay for it, at least if it were my table.

Also, AJ, oil under shellac is perfectly fine. Oil is used as a lubricant in French polishing. It's tempting to think of shellac like varnish but it is far more versatile.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> I agree with Rich, buffing a poly finish is about as close as it gets. It can be just as difficult because if you pass thru one coat it will show. That's what I remember
> 
> - Aj2


Exactly. I did not mean to imply that you can't get a flawless piano finish with poly. It's just not a French polish. It's like if you ordered an omelet and I served you scrambled eggs. Equally delicious, but the name's not right.


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

Thanks for the tips WoodKnack.
Once I made this real nice dovetailed box from ebony and Birdseye maple. I had it displayed on my gun safe that sits in my living room. I remember telling my wife how it had many coats of tung oil on it. We had guests over during the holidays and I overheard her says it was finished with bone oil. I was so embarrassed :| True story


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## squazo (Nov 23, 2013)

Well I do it and it works flawlessly. You can also do it with lacquer. It's all about applying it in layers that bond chemically. The higher o2 percentage helps bod it.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Well I do it and it works flawlessly. You can also do it with lacquer. It s all about applying it in layers that bond chemically. The higher o2 percentage helps bod it.
> 
> - squazo


Hmmm. Who are we to believe? Squazo or noted finishing expert Bob Flexner? I'm going to have to think about that a while.

OK, I'm done. lol


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## gargey (Apr 11, 2016)

> Well I do it and it works flawlessly. You can also do it with lacquer. It s all about applying it in layers that bond chemically. The higher o2 percentage helps bod it.
> - squazo


Whatever you do may work flawlessy, but its not a French polish. What you may be missing is that French polish is a proper name, that has a specific meaning. It specifically refers to the buffed shellac/oil finishing processes.

It is not a more general term that just means fine finish, layered finish, smooth/glossy finish, or anything like that. And there's no insult in saying what you're doing is not a French polish.

FYI.


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## squazo (Nov 23, 2013)

Any how that is one way to make polyurethane shine like shellac. Maybe I'll name it something else. Any good ideas?


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## woodbutcherbynight (Oct 21, 2011)

New French Polish????

Spanish Polish?

Bob's Ultra Shine Polish

LOL


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

> Any how that is one way to make polyurethane shine like shellac. Maybe I ll name it something else. Any good ideas?
> 
> - squazo


Squazo polish.

The bag of o2 is a new one on me.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Any how that is one way to make polyurethane shine like shellac. Maybe I ll name it something else. Any good ideas?
> 
> - squazo
> 
> Squazo polish.


I like that one.



> The bag of o2 is a new one on me.
> 
> - Woodknack


Seriously? You've never heard of that? I run mine over to the ICU at the hospital and they put it in the oxygen tent for me. My insurance covers it.


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## squazo (Nov 23, 2013)

Any way howgoes the table?


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## vhcconstruction1 (Jul 2, 2018)

pretty good, at 8 coats of poly, sanded 220 between. I almost wet sanded it today, but know it is not ready. Tomorrow will make the big decision.


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## squazo (Nov 23, 2013)

Cool. I would like to check it out.


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## vhcconstruction1 (Jul 2, 2018)

so far so good, have it down to 12000 wet sand. Will let it sit awhile hit it again and get the edges and sides. Looks great, but I still like the french polish finish better.


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## squazo (Nov 23, 2013)

That looks great, how do feel about automotive polish?


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