# Denatured Alcohol for Shellac



## jmos (Nov 30, 2011)

Has anyone ever had a problem using plain old big box store denatured alcohol for dissolving shellac flakes?

Here's my story: I can't find the original source, but I know I read somewhere that it was not recommended to use any denatured alcohol as a shellac solvent that is not specifically labeled as suitable for shellac. Most of the big box stores carry brands that are not listed as shellac solvent. Last time I needed some I found some quarts at a paint store that were labeled as solvent, so I got two.

Anyway, I need more and couldn't find any locally, so I ordered from Rockler. The gallon of Kleanstrip DA that came was not labeled for shellac (though the picture of the can on the Rockler website was.) I contacted Kleanstrip and asked about the two different labels and they were pretty evasive. All they did say was that their product was "not packaged to be used as a thinner." Sounds to me like they do not endorse this use.

I've found some other products (Behkol, and BT&C) that are ~$10/QT, but I'd like to know it's worth the extra money.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

Interesting. Turns out I use KS DA for thinning my shellac when I spray it. But I haven't worked from chips. Maybe if you try methanol itself. I think their DA is actually ethanol with a bitterent in it.


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## scottv11 (May 20, 2011)

I have always used big box DA. I don't think I even read the label after reading it was DA. I have never had a problem. I would not use it after sitting around unsealed for a few weeks.


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## crank49 (Apr 7, 2010)

My dad finished hardwood floors for a living for over 50 years. It would be fair to say he knew a thing or two about mixing shellac. He used a product called Solox. When that brand name was no longer around, he switched to S-L-X by Kleen Strip. This is now sold at Lowes and probably many other places.

I have read that S-L-X is 50% methanol and some other nasty stuff on camping and backpacking forums, but those comments were related to using S-L-X for cooking fuel. They prefer denatured ethanol for cooking. I would personally just go for the ethanol over ice and forget the stove, but thats just me :^)


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## Dusty56 (Apr 20, 2008)

http://www.ehow.com/about_4613607_what-denatured-alcohol.html


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## BillWhite (Jul 23, 2007)

I use single malt scotch. That way I can drink my thinner. JOKIN'!
I've never had a prob with DNA. It is just too expensive now. Bought any lately?
Bill


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## NiteWalker (May 7, 2011)

The SLX denatured alcohol is fine. It has a decent amount of methanol (making it pretty toxic) but it works just fine for thinning shellac and zinsser BIN primer if needed.

Others say to use dna with less denaturants (190 proof), but in real world use you probably won't notice much, if any, of a difference. Kleanstrip green denatured alcohol is 190 proof and sold at the borgs, but I haven't seen it in gallon size so I just stick with the SLX. Never a problem.

I'd not lose sleep over the type of dna used. SLX is available in gallons and not too expensive, so that's what I use. FWIW though, the klean strip green dna is the same price in quart size, but I haven't found it in gallons, otherwise I'd use that since it's not as toxic.


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## Arminius (Dec 27, 2007)

It is a little harder to brush properly, because it evaporates more quickly. The only other thing in my experience is that your ventilation must be better, due to the toxicity and potential effects.


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## jmos (Nov 30, 2011)

Thanks everyone. According to the MSDS the Kleanstrip SLX is 50% ethanol, about 50% methanol, and trace MIBK. The BT&C is 99.5% ethanol, which sounds good, but it is expensive.


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## NiteWalker (May 7, 2011)

Klean Strip Green is 90-100% ethanol and costs the same as slx in quarts. I wish it was available in gallons.


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## jmos (Nov 30, 2011)

Interesting NiteWalker, its an entirely separate website from the Kleanstrip site. In the description it specifically says "Not intended for sale or use as a thinner." I've got to wonder if the MIBK is the issue. Neither the BT&C or Behkol have any MIBK as a denaturant.

Still, if folks are using the big box stuff successfully…


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## hObOmOnk (Feb 6, 2007)

Ace Hardware offers a high ethanol denatured alcohol that makes a great shellac solvent. 
It is manufactured by several sources, including Parks, for Ace Hardware.


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## crank49 (Apr 7, 2010)

By the way, I use S-L-X for my jewelry work as a solvent for boric acid de-oxidizer. 
Walmart won't sell me but one quart at a time. Apparently its one of the ingredients for cooking meth.

Kinda stupid cause I can just go next door to Home Depot and buy it by the gallon.

Even more stupid is I can buy all the peroxide and acetone I can load into the cart without a question. Thats all you need to make the explosive used by most terrorists.


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## NiteWalker (May 7, 2011)

That's odd; not too long ago I bought 2 quarts of slx from walmart.
Maybe it's a regional thing?


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## JimDaddyO (Dec 20, 2009)

I have settled on using Methyl Hydrate. First, I an get it easily (in Canada). Second, it's cheap (like me).


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

I use box store DNA, and currently that's the Sunnyside label. I have comments from others about the Kleenstrip brand not being as good, but haven't actually tried it myself. The Sunnyside brand works great.


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## jmos (Nov 30, 2011)

I contacted Fine Woodworking to see if they could offer an opinion; one of their Editors replied that they had also heard both stories but did not know a definitive answer, and perhaps they would run some tests.

I think I'll try to find the Kleenstrip green, as its 90% EtOH and see how that works. $10/QT for Behkol or BT&C seems awfully steep.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

I've used off the shelf DA for years with out any problems .


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## mtenterprises (Jan 10, 2011)

NiteWalker - Some of these stores have stupid policies like I went to HD and bought a can of spray paint and I had to show them I.D. . They PROOF me for spray paint I'm almost 60. How stupid. I don't buy spray paint there any more.
And crank49 - Man if the police came into may garage shop they would find all the mixins for meth and some bombs too, I was just thinking about that the other day.

MIKE


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## Earlextech (Jan 13, 2011)

I'm with a1Jim - off the shelf DA for 25 years, professionally. Never had a problem.


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## jmos (Nov 30, 2011)

Thanks for all the replies guys! i feel better about using the big box stuff now.

It does make you wonder why Kleenstrip refused to recommend using their products for shellac. Some sort of liability issue perhaps?


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## Bill_Z (Dec 6, 2011)

I Managed the Woodcraft here in New Mexico for a number of years. We always recommended the product with the least amount of H2O in it (as it is only partially soluble in H2O). We carried DA from Ron Hock that was 100% H2O free. It was pricey. So I went to the local Walgreens and found a 97% H2O medicinal DA really cheap. Most of the problems associated with using shellac once it is mixed concern the absorption of O2. the more O2 it absorbs the harder it is to cure. If it absorbs enough it will never cure propely. Personally, I am a wood-turner and use shellac frequently (usually a 3-4lbs cut, which is quite heavy). I keep the flakes in a airtight container, even going so far as to use bl-oxygen to keep the O2 out if they are going to sit for a while. Use an airtight container out of the sun. Only mix small batches so it doesn"t sit around for long periods.

Kindest regards,


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## Dusty56 (Apr 20, 2008)

Bill_Z , thanks for the info : )


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## Bill_Z (Dec 6, 2011)

By the way. We had a spirited discussion about this at the store. Some thought that since DA has an affinity for h2O it was the H2O molecules scavenged from the air. Others thought that it was the O2 causing the gummy mess. Either way the procedure in my last post works.

Kindest regards


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

The regular denatured alcohol works fine.

People who do a lot of french polishing don't use it though,
and that's because the fumes are bad with a lot of exposure.

Luthiers who french polish often use Everclear or other 
high proof grain alcohol because the fumes are not 
a problem.


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## hObOmOnk (Feb 6, 2007)

Shellac that is dissolved in alcohol does not appreciably degrade because of water content nor oxygen from the air. What happens is that the dissolved shellac slowly reacts with the alcohol to form compounds known as esters. This esterification process is essentially irreversible. When the ester content becomes significant the shellac will no longer dry as expected. It will leave a gummy surface residue after the alcohol evaporates.

The good news is that some forms of premixed shellac, especially Zinsser products, are refined and pH adjusted to prevent rapid esterification. The Zinsser SealCoat product is a dewaxed shellac that should have a shelf life of at least three years and may be okay after five years of proper storage. Home mixed shellac may show significant degradation after six months or even less.

This is why it is important to always test premixed shellac, store-bought or home mixed, by putting a few drops on a glass surface, letting it dry for an hour or two, then test it with your thumbnail to see if it is gummy. Esters also can have a distinctive fruity smell if you know what to expect.

BTW, shellac is soluble in water if you adjust the pH and apply a little heat. Water-based shellac and borax varnish is still used in the art world.

... speaking as a chemist …


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## jmos (Nov 30, 2011)

Thanks HoboMonk. That makes a lot of sense.

Any thoughts as to what might be in the big box shellac, like Kleenstrip and Kleenstrip green that would cause them to not recommend it as a shellac solvent. Kleenstrip green, per the MSDS, is 90%EtOH, <10><10><5% Acetic acid, Ethyl ester {Ethyl acetate}. While the regular Kleenstrip is ~50%EtOH, ~50%MeOH, and 1-4% MIBK. Could the MIBK be a problem?

Thanks to everyone else also!


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## NiteWalker (May 7, 2011)

It just wasn't designed for shellac, but it works fine for it.


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## jmos (Nov 30, 2011)

But they used to say it was good for shellac on the package, but they removed it. Just curious as to why.


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## StumpyNubs (Sep 25, 2010)

I disolve mine with vodka. Then I clean my brushes by licking them. Works like a charm…


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## Bill_Z (Dec 6, 2011)

Thanks for the clarification HoboMonk. I talked to a couple of friends in the Santeros carving club, they dissolve Pinion sap (an evergreen here in NM) in Everclear to make their traditional varnish.


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## hObOmOnk (Feb 6, 2007)

Jmos:
Sorry, I don't buy from the so-called "big box" stores, so I'm nor familiar with the products they sell.

I usually buy my primary finishing ingredients in bulk from a chemical supplier in my area.
An excellent brand of Denatured Alcohol can be found at independently owned Ace Hardware Stores.
I have a relationship with Ace and have found their house brands of finishing products to be excellent.


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## jmos (Nov 30, 2011)

Thanks HoboMonk, I looked in my local Ace, but they didn't have one labeled for Shellac. I do wonder what the difference is; seems odd they would label some and not others. Does that can indicate who manufactured it? I looked on the Ace site but they don't have an MSDS for it.


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## hObOmOnk (Feb 6, 2007)

Ace buys DA from Wm. Barr, Parks Corp. and other industrial sources. It's a standard blend of ethanol with a little methanol and other denaturing chemicals.


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## RobynHoodridge (Jan 9, 2012)

As I understand it - 
Ethanol has a 'sin' tax. So industrial suppliers couldn't undercut this and just sell cheap pure ethanol. They could (and do) supply pure ethanol, but it's going to have to be at the high (taxed) price. At which point it's cheaper to use something with similar solvent properties. [and this may be why your purer commercial products are that much more expensive] The compromise is that producers are allowed to sell what's almost all ethanol (~95%) if it can't be used in consumption. And so they add poisonous things (and other additives). From our perspective it's a silly arrangement cause we have to breathe in methanol and / or have to pay for that privelage.

I doubt (though i'm a physiologist and not a full fledged chemist) that there's much difference between ethanol and methanol when it comes to acting as a solvent for shellac. There's a difference to the user (health) though. And I wouldn't be surprised if products are not recommended for shellac thinning because the producers are being responsible.

But potentially one reason that certain products aren't recommended for mixing shellac has a lot to do with what HoboMonk explained. The product may function perfectly but not store for long. And to avoid complaints by people who don't understand this, and a bad rep that could come from word of mouth when someone fails with their 2 week old mix and blames the solvent, they just say it's not recommended for that.

I have a tid-bit for those wanting pure ethanol though. 
Some insect samples are still stored in ethanol. Usually temporarily like when you're going out catching. And other biological departments use it too. So hit up an entomology / zoology / etc department at your local university / college if you can get away with it. You'll probably be paying that high price, but it's a possible source if you can't find it anywhere. Show an interest, or better yet say you've heard of their research, and stroke their ego and you may get a small quantity for free.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

pasted from Shelac.net
http://shellac.net/alcohol.html
Denatured Alcohols for Shellac
Buy a good Shellac Solvent for making your own shellac finish.

A 'high test', 190 proof (5% denaturants), Denatured Alcohol is preferred as a Shellac Flake Solvent.

Unfortunately NOT all Denatured Alcohols are equal and there is no purity standard or required ethanol content to be labeled "Denatured Alcohol".

It is next to impossible to find a 190 proof alcohol at the 'big box' home improvement or hardware stores. Many brands are formulated with as little as 50-60% Ethanol - and the balance are cheaper alcohols and denaturing solvents. Recently we went in search of high test Denatured Alcohol. Out of ten paint, hardware, and home improvement stores, only the local Sherwin Williams paint store had a190 Proof alcohol. The Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) will list the ingredient percentages of the product (most can labels do not).

A 'denaturant' is added to Ethanol Alcohol (a drinkable spirit) to make it unfit for consumption. The original denaturant was Methanol Alcohol, and the term 'Methylated Spirit' is used in many parts of the world in referring to Denatured Alcohol.
A 190 Proof Denatured Alcohol is operator and earth, 'Green', friendly.

Startex, Sunnyside and "Klean-Strip Green" are retail brands of 190 Proof Denatured Alcohols.
If you find one of these, or another 190 proof Denatured Alcohol, buy locally and save on shipping.


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