# Hemlock Fir vs. Douglas Fir



## ColdAudio

My local Lowe's (I know I should stay away but it's literally across the street!) has a section of 2×4 of Kiln-Dried "Hemlock Fir".... however the suppliers stamp on all of the 2×4s reads KD-HD D. Fir

I'm assuming the actual stamp on the wood is what I should be going by? Would they stamp Hemlock as D. Fir?

I'm new to all of this… are there any visual differences between the two?


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## EPJartisan

I am surprised to be the first to respond to this. Douglas Fir is not a Fir tree.. nor is there a such thing as Hemlock Fir.. these are marketing names,.. which always confuses us woodworkers. your Hemlock Fir is most likely not Hemlock, but could be one of more than 10 different species of conifers (hemlock, fir, or spruce … or even Douglas Fir)

Real Hemlock trees of the Tsuga genus has only 4 species in North America.. most popular is the "Western Hemlock" ... most of the other species are being decimated by an insect (the hemlock woolly adelgid … from Asia of course) and climate changes has greatly reduces these species… most stock you can get comes from Eastern Canada, but mostly gets turned into plywood.

The Douglas Fir is a more defined species, but is still not a real Fir tree. All Fir trees are of the Abies genus. Douglas Fir is of the Psudotsuga genus (notice "kinda Hemlock" not "kinda Fir") It is the second tallest tree in North America and grows along the eastern coast and comprises of most of the Fir lumber in the US. In fact Douglar Fir shares a common habitat with Western Hemlock and are often harvested together. Real Fir trees are very soft and almost unusable to us woodworkers.. being mostly turned into pulp for paper goods and plastics.

Beyond this… I can tell you that Hemlock hold more water moisture and more prone to cracking when dry… and Douglas Fir holds more resin near the pith and roots and is typically heavier than Hemlock. So this is what I got… any corrections or additions are welcome.


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## Sawkerf

It may be douglas fir, but the stamp isn't a guarantee. FWIW, there was a time when hemlock "fir" wasn't acceptable around here for structural applications.

I've found that hemlock is pretty soft relative to doug fir.


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## TopamaxSurvivor

They grow like weeds here in western WA; Doug Fir and Western Hemlock, that is. The mills do not sort, they all get cut together.


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## PurpLev

Thats also why you'll see on the 2×4s "*SPF*" which references it can be either *S*pruce, *Pine*, or *F*ir as they are all milled and packed together.

As for hemlock-fir or douglas-fir they might be marking it the same for pricing purposes (the store may not recognize the difference and is selling it as FIR construction lumber) but there is a significant difference in the material.

I have not seen any 2x Douglas FIR at the borgs here in MA, the only douglas-fir is the 4×4 posts. anything 2x is usually hemlock-fir or SPF

Hemlock-fir is lighter in color and lighter in weight than douglas-fir.


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## Nomad62

Douglas Fir tends to grow less "limby" than Hemlock, making it a little more valuable as logs. As far as my experience goes, if you get reasonably clean wood (knots or other defects) then it will make little to no difference in your project. I've cut up many trees of each and can tell no real difference in looks.


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## BillWhite

Don't drink the hemlock tea. Look it up from an historic point.
Bill


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## TheDane

Sometime ago, a friend of mine who works at Menards tipped me off that the 2×4, 2×6, and 2×8 they stock is SPF, but the 2×10 and 2×12 stock is kiln-dried Douglas Fir. I don't know if this is true of all Menards locations, but it is here.

My workbench and some other shop furniture was built from 2×12 Douglas Fir stock, and has held up really well.

-Gerry


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## Maverick44spec

*Don't drink the hemlock tea. Look it up from an historic point.
Bill*

How about sassafras tea?


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## TopamaxSurvivor

Is Fir superior in strength to hemlock?


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## EPJartisan

@ Paris ~ Sassafras oil is extracted from the root bark for use by the perfume industry, primarily for scenting soaps. It is also used as a flavoring agent and an antiseptic. Large doses of the oil may be narcotic. Root bark is also used to make tea, which in weak infusions is a pleasant beverage, but induces sweating in strong infusions. The leaves can be used to flavor and thicken soups. The mucilaginous pith of the root is used in preparations to soothe eye irritations. Did i say love researching trees? lol


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## EPJartisan

@ Bill … Socrates was put to death with poison hemlock.. (Conium maculatum) not even related to Hemlock wood.. but funny connection.


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## Dal300

Interesting. Up until about a year ago I had always thought that Douglas fir only grew on the west coast from Northern California to Mid British Columbia. I spent my childhood, or a small part of it, cutting down old growth Douglas fir. Actually, I spent more of my time setting chokers and limbing and fixing stuff than cutting… The old guys were the ones that usually got to do the felling.
If it only grows on the East coast, what was I cutting?

I also have seen the SPF designation, but I've never seen them mixed together in a bundle. Saw mills pick up a load of logs from the pond or the stack, bring them to the wash, it then goes to the slab saws and from there gets dimensioned. There are some steps in between, but basically, when a log truck comes in it's unloaded and stacked species by species. They don't mix species at the landing, (where the logs are loaded onto the truck), or in the deck, or on the log yard.

When in doubt, burn a bit of the sawdust… Fir, Pine and Spruce all smell different. Pine, especially SYP is extremely white, and if it comes from a tree farm, will twist, warp and move within hours of making your cut. Lodge Pole usually has a grey cast to the outer layers. Even live cut Lodge Poe will have that after a short time. (There are also different types of SYP, LF and SF and I have no idea of what makes them different).
Spruce has a cedar like smell, not really strong, but noticeable. 
Fir, whether it's Douglas or any other type has a reddish hue to it. If it's Douglas fir, it won't have many pockets of pitch, but where there are pockets, they will be large and messy.

these are just my observations. I'm probably wrong on some of this, and I'm sure someone will pitch in with real knowledge.


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## TheDane

Topa-Douglas Fir is one of the strongest construction grade lumbers available.

-Gerry


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## ColdAudio

Wow, this turned out to be a great topic! I can't thank you guys enough for all of the great replies. I've got a steep learning curve ahead of me….

Here's another question…. would a non-BORG lumber supplier prove more truthful with what is advertised? There's a place nearby that offers "Kiln Dried Douglas Fir" as the only 2x they offer…. or do the same rules apply where it's all milled together and shipped together?


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## TopamaxSurvivor

I knew doug fir wes top line, but thought hemlock was close. Maybe not? How much difference?


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## EPJartisan

OH Great! Thanks Dallas… I am going to be burning woods now to see how different they smell. Already know the smell of burning Maple, Cherry, Walnut, Ipe, and ebony…. oh boy … more exploration in the 3D studio. Also, I am a book worm, more reading then experience, only been to east coast three times but I visit forests every chance I can… fell in love with the sequoia forest. So I am sure there are various places Douglas Fir grows wild and in bulk. Black Locust for example has only one area where it grows in native groves, in North Carolina.. but it is even found in Italy as a road side invasive species. Trees are resilient and amazing.


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## EPJartisan

And upon further research on the uses of Sassafras tea … fun … hmmm.


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## TheDane

Topa-Douglas Fir is stronger than Hemlock, and some Hemlock has the 'shakes' ... that is a naturally occurring de-lamination between the tree's growth rings.

Hemlock is cheaper than Douglas Fir, which is why a lot of builders prefer it for framing, etc.

IMHO, Southern Yellow Pine (SYP) is a better choice … if you can find it.

-Gerry


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## EPJartisan

Oh how funny. I just re-read my first post.. YES.. I meant West Coast… LOL


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## EPJartisan

What the hell… must be my ADD.. I just read this whole string…. do I know my east from west coasts.. do I read? how embarrassing.. LOL


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## TopamaxSurvivor

must be the Sassafras tea or too much sniffing wood smoke ;-))


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## Bertha

I noticed 4×4 fir as a new offering at my local Lowes. $10/8 feet. I considered making a bench out of it but was quickly pulled away by my better half.


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## ColdAudio

Bertha, that's exactly what I was thinking of doing too! I forget where, but I had read something by a guy who used BORG 4×4 and the bench came out awesome.


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## MNgary

When I was selling homes for a builder I learned dimension lumber used for floor joists, wall studs, etcetera was a Hemlock & Fir mix. Approximately 1 out of four boards were Hemlock, the others Fir.

Some builders would pay the extra dollars to have only Fir for floor joists to eliminate that 'soft' spot you sometimes encounter when walking across a large room. Construction standards for VA and FHS mortgages allow the Hemlock Fir mix and I suspect that Lowe's was letting the buyer know this pallet contained both species.


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## contractor

Ok so don't listen to the minimum wage guys at the big box stores that still live with there parents. The reason I wont ever use this so called Hem-Fir thing it the fact that is crap. Doug fir is the only thing used for framing as the engineering for hangers, load spans, uplift, shearwall and all the stuff I deal with daily are based on Doug Fir ratings and Hemlock or as called Hem-Fir is rated at about 20% lower on an average. Any reputable lumber house knows what they have and should be able to help. The bundling together thing is what box stores do as they can get the whatever load cheaper. You get what you pay for and they garantee the lowest price so that should be proof in the pudding.


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## bondogaposis

No such tree as Hem Fir. They sell it that way because the mills run both species together and don't sort them. So the pile of 2 X 4's at your Lowe's may have both species. If you pick through the pile you can probably find the DF boards. Some of the bunks they get from the mill may be mostly one or the other, just depends which one they open that day as to what you see. I remember when Hemlock was considered trash wood, it is very soft compared to Douglas-fir.


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## exelectrician

I agree with The Dane get a 2 X 12 X16' From the bottom of the pile, the help you wont get from the staff at Lows adds to the challenge. Bottom line is, you get bone dry Doug fir because builders are too lazy to dig out the dry stuff.


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## TopamaxSurvivor

How do you tell Doug Fir from Hemlock in the piles?


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## gargey

Believe the stamp on the wood, not the store's sign.

As has been mostly covered:

HEM-FIR means a mix of Hemlock and Douglas Fir. (NOT AS GOOD) Count on it mostly being hemlock, which is inferior to D-Fir.

DOUG FIR means Douglas Fir. (GOOD).

And I'd add:

DOUG FIR-L means a mix of Douglas Fir and Larch. (GOOD). Western Larch is even harder than D-Fir and just as stiff. It is not as dimensionally stable as D-Fir, which is the gold standard for stability for construction lumber, but it is quite good.

Takeaway: DOUG FIR and DOUG FIR-L are primo, HEM-FIR and SPF are perfectly usable for most applications, but certainly not as good.


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## CyberDyneSystems

Hemlock is very pale white, so prone to twisting, and low weight and lower strength.

I'll use it for studs running up and down, but won't use it for joists.


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## Harryn

Bot a 2×4 from Menards last week, after ripping it it gave off an extremely offensive odor. Any ideas?


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## gargey

U fartid?


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## BillWhite

Dang! I thought that I had a great start for a hemlock thread. 
Bill


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## MrRon

"SPF" is not a designation recognized in the "Wood Handbook" put out by the Dept of Agriculture. It is apparently a symbol assigned by lumber mills to designate various species of timber that have similar characteristics and are milled in the same mill from local timber sources. Since the main use for "SPF" lumber is for construction purposes, grouping those woods together is legitimate. It is not suitable for furniture, unless you want a "rustic" look. Home centers are not in the business of catering to furniture makers, but they will sell it for whatever purpose you choose. If you want good lumber, you need to deal with a lumber yard or a business that deals with hardwoods. The only softwood I have found at the big box stores that is suitable for furniture is called "Radiata" pine aka Monterey pine. What woods are available at big box stores is usually what is available locally to avoid long distance transportation.


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