# Noob questions on finish sprayers (on-going)



## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

I've used this to apply paint:










When the job is done (total project OR for the day), it takes forever and many gallons of water running through the hose and sprayer to get the thing marginally clean. To finish the job means taking it apart and soaking / scrubbing before applying a bit of oil and putting the tool away.

For those that apply finish to woodworking projects (lacquer? poly? doesn't matter for purposes of this question), how do you effectively clean the sprayer used? Isn't there a messy cleanup that takes all kinds of time and lots of liquid (alcohol, mineral spirits, etc) that is also expensive?

I feel I've missed something in that many seem to discuss and use HPLV (is that the right acronym?) sprayers to great effect. I've been hesitant because of the work experience cleaning up after ole' Wagner.

Thanks in advance for any enlightenment you choose to provide.


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## pintodeluxe (Sep 12, 2010)

I use an airless sprayer for paint, and yes they take forever to clean.

For furniture projects, I use a gravity feed HVLP gun run off my compresser. It only takes 2-3 oz. of thinner and 10 minutes to clean up. I use it for lacquer, poly, shellac, and even spraying stain.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

So there's a distinction to be made between airless sprayers and HVLP guns?

EDIT: I guess that's a real dumb question, but is it simply the former uses electricity directly, the latter compressed air?


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## TerryDowning (Aug 8, 2012)

I have an older wagner and I hate it.

as you stated it's a real pain to clean the pain point is high enough that I never use it anymore.

I haven't tried the HVLP stuff for 3 reasons.

1. The cost of a dedicated sprayer is currently out of my reach.
2. While I could get a compressor driven model, my current compressor does not have the CFM volume to run one. Again cost becomes the issue for upgrading the compressor.
3. I don't do enough finishing to warrant a sprayer of this magnitude. I just use rattle can products when spraying is preferred.

I may try the HF Touch up HVLP as my small compressor has just enough juice to run this.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

2 -3 oz of thinner would be an incredible feat for me, Pinto. What's your technique? Is that material run through the tool and collected so parts that are dis-assembled can be cleaned or?


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## shampeon (Jun 3, 2012)

A cheapie gravity HVLP gun and waterborne finishes are extremely easy to clean. I spray one reservoir of water, then some soapy water, then clear water again. One more reason why Target Coatings EM-6000 is the best.

I have a small gravity HVLP sprayer I use for shellac, and that's harder to clean, but not that bad either. I spray a reservoir of DNA, then take it to the sink, take off the tip, and let the tip and container soak in DNA for a bit before opening the trigger to flush it out.


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

I have a conversion HVLP (runs off the compressor) and a turbine system. Cleaning either one is pretty much the same, and not that bad a job (IMHO). There area cleaning kits with a series of brushes to use to clean out the orifices with the appropriate solvent and if I had to guess I;d say I spend somewhere in the range of 30 minutes or so cleaning the guns after each use. When spraying multiple coats, I leave the finish in the gun then resume spraying, but never overnight. I did see an Apollo turbine set demonstrated at a woodworking show a few years ago. He claimed he left the varnish in the gun all weekend of the show and cleaned it before packing up. I don't spray varnish, but even if I did I don't think I'd go all weekend without cleaning. I haven't used an airless system in many, many years so can't compare the 2.


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## Earlextech (Jan 13, 2011)

Smitty - Airless sprayers don't use air. HVLP - High Volume Low Pressure - do use air.
HVLP units strength are based on output which relates to stages. A typical HVLP would be refered to as a three stage. That just means there are three fans on the motor moving air. A two stage would have two fans. the stronger the output, the thicker the material that can be sprayed.
Anairless system has about 60% overspray, that means that $60 out of every $100 worth of finish never lands on the project. With true HVLP systems that number is about 10%. 
True HVLP means a turbine makes the air, a conversion HVLP runs off a regular compressor.


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## pintodeluxe (Sep 12, 2010)

Airless means it doesn't require a compressor. It has its own internal pump, and many contractors use them to paint houses and fences. They can either have a paint hopper on board, or have a hose that inserts into a 5 gallon bucket.

HVLP is high volume, low pressure which is aimed at improving transfer efficiency and reducing overspray. Conversion HVLP guns can be run on your compresser (both gravity feed and siphon type guns are available). Or you can buy a turbine system HVLP sprayer that has its own pump.

As far as the 2-3 oz of thinner… I empty the cup when I'm done spraying, and spray a couple oz. of thinner through the gun. Maybe one oz. goes in the lid to keep the threads and vent hole clean. Then I disassemble the gun and soak the parts in a tupperwear container of thinner. I re-use the thinner for soaking. It lasts many months and through several sprayed projects.

Good luck!


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

Wow, guys, this is good stuff. Glad I asked the question, thank you for the quality responses. Keeping this on 'on file' for future reference when I'm ready to take the next step in finishing.


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

Im with you Smitty. I bought the HF HVLP to do the cabinet doors at the house and I think that its a pain in the chops to clean. Considering I had 27 doors and drawer fronts to paint it worked out well because of the quantity but when it came down to painting one 3'0 door, I went straight to the brush. I think I might be inclined to only spray water based through it from here on out. I sprayed oil based primer out of it and it took half a jug of MS to clean it out.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

I haven't bought any kind of spray apparatus because I've had most in the past, and agree with the cleaning crap. For what I do now, if I need to spray it, I buy rattle cans.

So I read everything, and still didn't get the answer to "Is there an easy clean system" except for Ian. I hear soak and disassembly over and over.

This is why I like oil!


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

A good informational thread here I found Googling Ian's comment on Target finishes.


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

Actually, if you spray shellac, clean up for it isn't much more costly than it is for waterborne finishes. Use household ammonia instead of DNA. The ammonia will just destroy shellac, in fact I store my mixed shellac in canning jars. To clean them out I'll soak them in a bucket of ammonia and they look like the were new. One word of caution: ammonia can discolor aluminum, but it doesn't seem to be destructive. As for the high cost of solvents to clean oil based finishes, it's true you loose some, and I usually use a quart or so of paint thinner to clean a gun used with oil finishes. Some of it lost when you spray it through the gun, but what's used for the soaking and other cleaning can be reused later, much as you do with your brushes (you do re-use that as well, right?) Eventually, you have to decant the thinner from the resins….but it's cleaning abilities are not impaired in any way.


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## Bill1974 (Mar 24, 2010)

Cleaning an airless with a hose and the pump that goes over the paint bucket does take a while and I know the time it takes to cleanup. if the airless is an all in one hand held unit its quicker, almost as quick as an HVLP, 20 minutes or so. usually I think its because airless are generally used to spray thicker materials that are more difficult to wash off.

I try to only spray water based finishes through stuff i have to clean. if i need some solvent based stuff i go for the rattle can.

For cleaning an HVLP, it takes 15 minutes and that includes running up to the kitchen sink and back to the garage. Dump the remaining product back into a container. Rinse everything off in the sink. A little disassemble, and more rinsing. Then it run some water through it till its clear. And maybe one last wash off and dry.

I used an airless to spray 30+ interior doors and 1600 ft of trim with latex. Did all the doors in one day (taking down, hang in gagage to paint, move to a drying rack and repeat for the next 30 doors). The trim was primed and painted prior to installing and that took a few days since it was all 16" pieces and I had not room to paint and store that much trim, in a 20" garage.

what you are spraying it what really determines how long it take to clean. Solvent just seem to be more of hassle for me so i don't use them unless i can do it outside and there isn't a water based product that is appropriate.


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## rg33 (Dec 1, 2012)

I tried this HVLP about a year ago:

http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-518080-Control-Spray-Sprayer/dp/B003PGQI48/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1387582071&sr=8-1&keywords=hvlp

I tried spraying water based poly and just got frustrated with the results and ended returning the unit. The finish was just crappy and not smooth and wasted a terrible amount of poly due to the overspray. Maybe I didnt know how to get the settings right for the viscocity of the finish or the fact that its a "breather" type meaning that regardless of whether the trigger is pressed air is always coming out of the nozzle. Needless to say I was not sold on "HVLP"s because of this one bad experience. 
To the OP's original question, clean up did not seem too bad however; just had to remove the container with poly and then run some water through it for several minutes.

Curious to hear from others who've had better experiences with reasonably priced HVLP's ($100-$250) range.

Shampeon, what gravity HVLP do you use? the harbor "fright" one? I may just try it, though my compressor will barely keep up


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## mochoa (Oct 9, 2009)

Well since this convo has gravitated to HVLP I'll ask a cleaning related HVLP one.

I hear a lot of guys like water based finishes because they are easier to clean up. But solvent based lacquers don't need sanding between coats and water based poly does. So is the hassle of cleaning up greater than the hustle of sanding between coats 2 or more times? However solvent based finishes also have the added hassle of avoiding explosions.

I have an Earlex 5500 which I havent used yet so I have a ton of questions, probably for another forum but thats a question related to cleaning.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

Don't worry about hijacking this one at all, Maur. There is some incredibly strong expertise at work in here, tap it and you're likely to get a very timely answer. Outstanding stuff.


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## Maggiepic (Aug 26, 2010)

This is a subject with many, many variables. The available airless sprayers varies from cheap to units that can run four or five guns at once. The same with HVLP. From two stage turbines to $1000 SATA compliant guns that required a high cfm compressor but will atomize a finish to unbelievable levels.
I have several types, airless, HVLP, Compliant, and conventional. In fact I just upgraded to a Quincy 2 stage compressor to get better performance from my HVLP. The cleaning level of each gun varies with what type of product is sprayed, i.e. waterborne, lacquer, urethane, post-cat, etc. 
What did you spray through your Wagner? An off the shelf acrylic latex or a cabinet grade waterborne? Any waterborne has an inherently longer clean up than a solvent base due to the fact it just does not dissolve into it's "cleaner" as quickly but the "cleaning agent" is readily available and cheap. Lacquer is easily cleaned because it dissolves rapidly into the solvent, even after it dries but as mentioned can add up for the solvent.
This is my line of thought on sprayers. Airless for basic acrylic latexes and oil enamels. I know there is some guys who spray lacquer from an airless rig with a 215 or so, but I feel it puts it on to heavy and with an unsatisfactory finish. Oils can also be sprayed from compressed air or turbine guns also with proper thinning. When stepping up to cabinet and furniture grade products, a HVLP fits the bill.
This also falls into the category of "you get what you pay for" or "get the best you can afford". I have never sprayed with a Wagner so I cannot comment on your unit but different units with different pumps are all going to clean a little differently.

Earlextech…..Airless guns, set at the proper pressure, have the best application percentage of product of any type of spraying rig available. Your percentage is more accurate to an old conventional suction feed spray guns.
No offense, just my experience.


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## SuperCubber (Feb 23, 2012)

Rg33, I have that gun and I love it. I had to turn the knob almost all the way out to get the trigger pull to a point where it works, and turn the pressure dial all the way down. One of the magazines did a write up on it and that helped me get the settings right. I've never used a high end set up, but I don't think you can beat that system for $120. I've only sprayed water based stuff (dye and poly), but they both sprayed great and came out as smooth as I expected.

I agree that it is a cinch to clean, 5-10 min at the most.

Sorry you didn't have as much luck…


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## shampeon (Jun 3, 2012)

The waterborne Target EM6000 melts into the previous layer like nitro lacquer, albeit for a more limited time (like a couple weeks). So no sanding between coats. If you need to touch up, scuff sand then respray.

Also, EM6000 doesn't require wet sanding.


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## BentheViking (May 19, 2011)

I have the cheapo woodcraft HVLP gun which I agree is a PITA to clean. typically takes about 30 min to get it pretty clean. I've only sprayed water-based enamel out of it knowing that if I ever sprayed something solvent based itd be one and done. I'm done with spraying for the winter, but when I open my spray room back up in the spring time I'm going to refer back to this since I'm sure then I'd love some more tips to make cleaning quicker since often times I'll spray a few coats before going to work.


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## mochoa (Oct 9, 2009)

Smitty thanks for letting me hijack the thread! I've got tons of questions! Lol

Shamp is that stuff explosive solvent based? Where do you spray it?

Can it be sprayed outside? If so will the over spray get on the house, swing set etc if I'm far enough away? I seem to remember someone saying that lacquer dries so fast that it falls to the ground as dust and won't stick to anything a few feet away. Is any of that true?

As far as cleaning the hvlp it doest sound to crazy if you keep a container of solvent, just take the gun apart and let it soak in there overnight?

Also I hear spraying dye is sweet, I use a lot of dye. Do any of you buy a separate gun for dye or use the same gun for everything?


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## MarkSr (Oct 14, 2012)

This is a great forum, I am about to use my new HF HVLP very expensive spray gun, $9.95. Truefully, we just had a new HF store open in our town and they had the $29.95 guns on sale for $9.95. I have made three small projects that I used Bullseye primer, put on with foam brush, sanded with 180 grid and put another coat of Bullseye primer on, sanded that with 220 grit and now ready to put on a waterborne, (laytex) high gloss paint.

Question: How much do I cut the paint for the HF HVLP gravity feed gun I don't believe it would spray the paint poured right out of the can, thru the filter and then into the cup, would it?. I would like to spray the finish coats on. Anyone with a proven formular?

Thanks
Mark


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## pintodeluxe (Sep 12, 2010)

Mark,
Latex can be sprayed with your gun, as long as it has a 2.0 mm needle and nozzle set. You may see improved results by straining the paint to remove any clumps, and thinning the latex 10% with water. 
Some guns come with a 1.5mm size, but other sizes are available. The smaller size is more prone to clogging with latex on larger projects.


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## skipj (Mar 6, 2012)

Shampeon has got it right with target 6000. I think ia'm on my 8th or 9th gallon in the last 7 months. I use
the woodriver hvlp spray gun that I like. I've tried the HF hvlp guns and do a so so job if you can stop the leaks.


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## shampeon (Jun 3, 2012)

Mauricio: I spray it outside. With HVLP and the correct tip (I think I use 1.2), you won't get much overspray.

It's waterborne, totally non-explosive, and relatively non-toxic.
http://www.targetcoatings.com/products/interior-top-coats/em6000-production-lacquer.html

Target Coatings has a forum that their techs monitor, with a lot of pretty good info.
http://www.targetcoatings.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=2

I will say that I haven't had as much luck with their EM2000 sealer, especially as a color vehicle. I've switched back to shellac for sealing, and mix the toner into the EM6000.


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## skipj (Mar 6, 2012)

Shampeon, I use a1.4 tip in my hvlp and it works good. Like you no luck with 2000 as a color vehicle so I use trans tint in the 6000. I use 2000 mixed 50-50 with water for sealer.I used that on my last kitchen job which was hard maple and my client loved it.


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## mochoa (Oct 9, 2009)

Target 6000 sounds like the shiznit!

Since its waterborne you have to raise the grain and knock it down with sandpaper right?

Or do you avoid that by sealing with shellac? Are there any other reasons you seal with shellac?

I like the idea of toning the shellac, especially on pine, it also cuts down yet another step buy combining steps.

I think my Earlex comes with a 1.5 tip for thin finishes, that would work right?

Thanks for all the great info guys, you all have me stoked to try this hvlp out!


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

I wouldn't raise the grain and sand it back, it will just raise again. Give the wood you first coat or 2 of the waterborne, and then sand it smooth. The apply another coat and you're done.


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## shampeon (Jun 3, 2012)

The shellac keeps raised grain from being an issue, yes. But Fred might be onto something, under the maxim "level the finish, not the wood." A test panel is always a good idea.


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## skipj (Mar 6, 2012)

Maurucio you are getting some great info. here,but I gave info. what I use on maple, if you are into something else it,s a new ball game.Ian and Fred are on this. I use my 50-50 mix to control blotch, I wouldn't need this step if say I was using red oak. Also when using tints there is a learing curve.Do a lot of test panels.
Sorry I think I am getting off the subject here but I am just trying to help.


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## mochoa (Oct 9, 2009)

Ah yes, I've always heard of that being an option, sand it smooth after the first or second coat. Never tried it though.

Skipj, advise noted, thank you sir. So 50-50 mix of the 2000 for the sealer on blotchy woods. I guess I need to read about the differences, 6k vs 2k to understand fully.

I will do a bunch of testing when I get around to for sure, especially since it will be my first time using the process.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

So much expertise on record here, thanks everyone for the input!


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## mochoa (Oct 9, 2009)

You said it Smitty, a wealth of knowledge here.

I did some reading on the 2000:
"EM2000wvx will create and define the warm glow of traditional alkyd based varnish with the speed and safety of modern ultra-low VOC water-based systems" 
and
"new EM2000wvx continues to bring together the best features of oil-based varnishes and waterborne urethanes into one unique package. "

Sounds like good stuff! So am I right in thinking that this stuff would have to be sanded between coats if you were to use it exclusively?

In other words, the 2000 gives you that nice warm Oil finish look, then you build the following coats with the Lacquer which is very clear. This gives you the best of both worlds with no sanding between coats (other than knocking down any raised grain after the first 1 or 2 coats.


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## skipj (Mar 6, 2012)

OPP'S Me bad. sorry guys I made a mistake in my posts. I meant 1000 not 2000 in my posts.I use many different
target products and I goofed up. Like I said sorry.. The 2000 is the only product that I have not used.


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## JustplaneJeff (Mar 10, 2013)

I bought an Apollo HVLP 4 stage turbine spray system 4 years ago and have been very pleased. It runs on about 6psi and has very little overspray. The secret is thinning the product to the right viscosity, and learning how thick to lay the finish down. As far a clean up, I clean the gun about once every 2 weeks, except for the ..air cap which I soak in Lacquer thinner when the gun is not in use. I spray about 3 to 4 gallon of lacquer a week, and the gun has worked flawlessly. For latex paint I use and airless sprayer, and just recently used Kem-aqua, a water-borne lacquer for the first time and found a regular HVLP gun with 40psi of compressed air layed down the best finish for that product. It seems to me everything has a learning curve. Good Luck


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

rg33
I have these two guns. There are basically the same guns but one is a mini gun and the other is full size. They don't take a lot of air. The mini gun uses 6 cfm at 40 psi and the full size one take 6 cfm at 40 psi. They both spray very well. The mini gun is a little slower than the full size gun because of the narrower spray pattern. The mini gun is the one I sprayed my blood wood cabinets with an it did an excellent job. It just took longer. I also bought a larger 12 ounce cup so I didn't have to refill so often.










These guns are not for thick paints. There are great for clear top coats and shellac.

You can get the min gun for 250.00

Here: http://www.paintsprayersplus.com/product/AR878/Asturo-AOM-Water-Base-HVLP-Mini-Spray-Gun-Master-Kit.html

You can get the full size for the same price
Here: http://www.paintsprayersplus.com/product/AR878/Asturo-AOM-Water-Base-HVLP-Mini-Spray-Gun-Master-Kit.html

Parts, needles, air caps, tip are readily available.


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