# oil finish destroying gel stain



## paean (Aug 23, 2008)

Hi folks, 
This is my first post, so please forgive the newbiness. ( = I'm working on a project to make speaker stands. So I cut my lumber down to size, sanded it, cleaned it, stained it and finished it.

I'm using Varathane Gel Stain on red oak. I'd never used a gel stain before but after a little trial and error I was getting the results I was hoping for. Everything was great up until this point.










The instructions recommend Varathane's own Diamond Interior finish (oil based) or their Professional line of finishing products. So I picked up their Natural Oil finish (clear).










The results from the finish were almost immediate. My cloth was pulling some of the stain off and leaving blotchy spots everywhere.


















While the gel stain left the wood a little tacky, it was probably as dry as it would ever be. (Left it for 48 hours before applying finish.)

Any thoughts on what I did wrong? I searched the forums, and it seems like more people finish with poly when using a gel stain. Is this what I should do?

Thanks in Advance!


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## JohnGray (Oct 6, 2007)

The poly should work as long as the *stain is DRY*. Sand it *lightly* with 220 grit and apply more coats of poly sanding again between each coat. Also the problem could be you did not sand the wood progressing from 120 to 220 grit. Oak is an open pore wood and finishes are absorbed at different rates according to the grain. If it is sanded properly that should solve you problem. I will take several coats of poly to fill the "low spots" in your wood. My 2 cents


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## kolwdwrkr (Jul 27, 2008)

because oak is a very dense wood it doesn't "soak up" the stain like other woods. Since you used Gel stain it stayed on the surface. I am imagining that the coat of stain was pretty thick to get it that dark without multiple coats. This is kind of a no no simply because it's just stain sitting there, not adhered to your board. This project may have worked if you had sprayed the finish, but I would bet it would still peel later because the stain was so thick. My suggestion is to do multiple coats of stain, applying light coats of a barrier (such as shellac) in between coats of stain so that you aren't wiping off the previous coat. It basically becomes glazing, but the stain sticks to the wood. Stain is meant to be wiped on, then wiped off. Not left heavy. You may want to try a base coat of dye stain to darken the wood, then stain over that. I've used Varathane products, but we use the waterbased products generally. 
If you intend on sticking to your products I suggest applying the gel stain light, let it stand for several hours, then stain again. Allow to dry again then spray a coat of sanding sealer. Lightly sand with 220 or finer paper then spray the oil. After the sanding sealer is on you could wipe the oil on, but I prefer spraying. 
Bartley has a gel stain that is also varnish. Just apply the stain and your done.


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## paean (Aug 23, 2008)

Wow, some speedy responses. The stain and varnish in one would've been quicker solution. Wish I'd spotted that product. Since I've already started with the gel and oil finish, I'd like to stick with these products so that I know how to use them properly.

John: I sanded with 80, 100 and finally 150 grit. Would going to 220 make that a difference?

kowlwdwrkr: So essentially that light tackiness is the gel not drying completely? I pulled quite a bit of stain off the wood with a cloth, so I'm surprised I would've left a 'thick' coat, but I could be wrong.

I guess I'm going to be sanding everything down again, applying the thinnest coat of stain possible, then layering with a barrier.

Hopefully this hasn't been asked too many times, but for that sealer, is spraying better than rubbing?


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## kolwdwrkr (Jul 27, 2008)

Although the gel stain has a binder (all stains do, normally it's blo among other things), it sitting heavy on the surface just allowed it to get re-wet by the oil finish. I am not experienced with that finish so I won't say what it's intended for. I completely agree with using shellac as stated previously. I will stick to my guns about the stain being applied to thick. It may dry at the surface and not feel tacky, just like an open can of stain does. However, peel the dry surface off and low and behold it's still wet underneath. Gel gives the illusion that its dry by drying at the surface. You can wipe it all day and not get anything onto the rag. But if you wipe it with something that re-wets it it comes off. Apply your stain how you'd like, let it stand as long as you can, then topcoat with zinnser seal coat (shellac) like BeachPilotBarry says. Then apply your finish.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

I second what has already be said. To summarize:

A) Your stain should not be tacky when you put a finish on it. Thickness of coating and denseness of the wood can have a huge effect on drying time. I've had to wait several days on occasion.

B) I don't think that oil finish was the right product to go over your gel stain. I recommend a wipe-on polyurethane over stain. I use Minwax, but any name brand will do.


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## pintodeluxe (Sep 12, 2010)

This very problem is why I always spray my lacquer over dry stain. That way you will never disturb the stain coloring. I know you were not using lacquer, but any solvent based finish can lift off solvent based stain when applied with a direct contact method (brush or rag). 
Best of luck with the project.


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

Think of it this way. You took an oil-based gel stain and then applied a top-coat, the main ingredient of which is a solvent used to CLEAN UP the gel stain. To make matters worse, you wiped it on.

Yep, I've been there. 

This wouldn't be so big of a deal it the stain had actually absorbed into the wood, but gel stains (as mentioned) sit atop the wood for the most part. So, you basically used solvent to wipe away the gel stain.

Shellac is a wonderful thing here. Because it's alcohol-based, you can apply it to the gel stain without the negative effect. Then, you can apply your chosen oil-based finish atop that without fear that it will remove any of the shellac OR the gel stain. In fact, because we typically use oil-based and water-borne stains and finishes, shellac is the great barrier because it's not affected by either solvent. The only issue there is the issue of wax in the shellac when dealing with polyurethane (it doesn't bind well to shellac unless it is dewaxed), but there's sufficient reason to debate that.

A rule of thumb is this…look at the two products and see what it takes to clean up those products. This is the solvent at the base of the product. If they are the same, then to play it safe you should seal-off the first before using the second. Like I said, you can get away with this if you have a deep absorbing stain (especially with softer woods), but a thin-coat of shellac as sealant (or using a different solvent-based top-coat) would be a good idea.

This is also why I like spraying. Wiping or brushing can cause problems if you aren't attentive to the chemistry.


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

Side note - I'm amused at all the bad advice you can find on the side of a can. Of course Varathane would recommend chasing the stain with its own brand of top-coat ($$$). Next thing you know you are sanding off the dried top-coat to try again, and again, because you must being doing something wrong, right? Ugh.


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## pastorglen (Jan 13, 2011)

Note to self: check LJ BEFORE I take any step in any project, ever.

I'm in the middle of putting a finish on a saw handle and the oil finish wiped off the "gel stain." I should have read this first. Great posts.

Live and learn.


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