# what to do?



## boyd8 (Aug 23, 2009)

I just finished a commission piece where the client paid for it but called today that she doesn't like it and wants her money back. Since I trusted her I did not mention that the deposit was non refundable so I am wondering what you have done in such situations. The cost on the piece was $500 with $200 in materials. what have you done in this situation?
Thanks,


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## Delta356 (Aug 2, 2010)

Russ I have not had a situation like this before, but I feel as a woodworker when we build a custom piece there are no returns. When ever I deal with a client I make sure to build what they want 101%. If your client gave you the ok to build the custom piece, she does not have the position to say I want return it!!! I really don't see how you return a custom built piece that you custom build for some one. I see it if you built the piece and sold it at a fair or gallery.

I would say strong, but not be mean, and say to her, tough cookies. I already built it.

I don't know if this can become a legal situiation????

Good luck.

Thanks, Michael Frey
Portland, OR

FEY WOODWORKING INC.


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## longgone (May 5, 2009)

I would chalk it up as a learning experience and give her the money back. 
It is always important to have an agreement/contract in writing stating all the specifics…such as a required no-refund deposit, progress photos and any important other factors such as no returns or refunds.
When you decide to turn a hobby into a for-profit endeavor you have to handle everything situation that could arise.


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## bshourd (Apr 20, 2011)

I'm with Jonathan: make it right. If there is anything at all you can do to make her happy with the product, that's a net win for you. Word of mouth is the best advertising, and you get that by going above and beyond for your customers. Even when your customers are jerks.

If you cannot make her happy with the purchase, then express your disappointment professionally and take the item back. Depending on the item, I would think it is likely that you can still sell it at a price to recoup your material cost. You are still out your time, plus some extra time in the hassle, but it is better to concede now and move on than to fight a long, drawn-out, fight.

Even if you are right, it only takes one ornery customer to make a lot of trouble. They could, for example, contest the charge/check with their credit card company/bank, report you to the better business bureau, even report you to the police or take you to court if they are really mad, not to mention tell everyone they know. While these might be overkill, and would largely result in nothing, it would be a long, drawn-out nothing. If you can make $300 selling it on Craigslist or eBay (thus keeping your customer happy and finding a new happy customer in the process), is it really worth the headache?

Sorry to hear about your trouble, though, that is really too bad. Best of luck resolving this issue.


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

Take the piece back, bite the 200 and tell your friends about her.
All you need is one rotten customer to do a lot of damage to your reputation as a woodworker. Some people will never be satisfied whatever you do.


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## ryansworkshop (Dec 2, 2011)

Hello all, this is my first post here. I have been a reader for quite sometime.

I'd like to say first, I have been in business for 20 plus years. I am a third generation carpenter (ouch) woodworker.

I know it is the robot response to the old saying "The customer is always right." But, my beliefs are not along these lines. Know each situation is different and based on your info, I'd say NO refund.

Let me ask you this? If you order a non-stock window from a box store what do they do? Money up front, no refunds. Get your truck painted, no refund.

I know we all want good feedback, exposure and word of mouth. So let me give you an example of an affair I had this past spring.

I had a customer with whom I had done work for before. Well about a few weeks into the project I could see all was not well in the relationship department. She contacted me with every little thing she could to badger me. I had all my ducks in a row. She went as far as to post on several local social sites about me. She contacted the BBB. A real bad public relations nightmare. One customer going to wreck 20 plus years of good business.

So what did I do? I sent all the texts, all my documentation and specifics to my email and downloaded them to those social sites. I let the jury handle the social bashing. To make this short, she is probably hiding in a corner and when she goes out she wears dark sunglasses. Best marketing thing I have done in along time. Business is great.

As for the BBB sending me a letter about the conflict. They also sent me two days after a letter/offer to join them. These were scanned and put on the local social sites. The BBB is a joke in my area.

Bad press can be a good thing. IF you are in the right. Just look at all the politicians, movie stars and celebrities, who have used bad press to make a gain.

Never compromise yourself, you are all you have.

Till our trails cross,
Ryan


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## nailbanger2 (Oct 17, 2009)

Russ, first off, I'm wondering if you could provide more details. But lacking that, here's my take: assuming everything was done to her specs, the piece (not even a description of the piece?) is hers and the money is yours. By all means, try to make it right by any* reasonable* means. If these are not possible, tell her you will try to sell it and the profit will go toward a refund to her. Put a time limit on this "consignment", no one has too much space in their shop.

I have been in this position before, you cannot let people walk over you, you'll become a marked man.


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## tenontim (Feb 24, 2008)

If the piece is something you can take back and resale, I would do that. If it's a custom item that may not be easy to resale, you might offer to refund the money when you find a buyer for it. As long as there is no problems with the workmanship and design, the customer changing their mind should be a non starter. You might want to get your policies down in writing for the next time.

If a customer is happy, they will tell 3 people. If they're unhappy, they'll tell 11. Heard that statistic somewhere.


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## SPHinTampa (Apr 23, 2008)

Not legal advice, but a comment on professional practices … if you have a written document that spells out the remedy in the event of a dispute, you could stick to that. If not, you are stuck negotiating. Written document does not mean a full contract, even a statement of policy on the receipt for the deposit is a good start.

To me, the deciding factor is how much sign off the client has on the work. If I were doing custom work to a written specification, with sign offs on the design, color choice etc … as well as the fact that I clearly identified that I wanted confirmation before incurring significant material costs, then I would tend to stick to my guns. If the agreement was informal and the terms not communicated beforehand, I would chalk it up to learning better business practices.

Then it becomes a judgement call. General rule of thumb is a happy customer tells one person, an unhappy customer tells seven. If you have time and energy, you can spend it counteracting any negative publicity you will receive or you could spend that time positively promoting yourself to others.


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## jtworkshop (Feb 9, 2011)

I was building a small desk for a couple. They chose the dimensions/design/colors. I called them when it was completed and I had come in much under my original estimate. Never heard from them again!! Tried emailing them but no reply….what hurt was that they hadn't even seen the piece. Maybe I should have taken a deposit, I don't do much of this kind of thing so I just took them at their word. Haven't wanted to do any kind of custom work since.


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## jtworkshop (Feb 9, 2011)

Good luck with your situation, I agree, if there is anything you can do to make her happy with it, within reason, then great…it works out for both of you.


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## ryansworkshop (Dec 2, 2011)

Once money is involved, it becomes a business deal. It should be treated as such. You need to protect yourself. The days of a hand-shake are over, which is sad.

Another thing. If this just happened, she may be looking to recoup some holiday spending money. Just a thought as you never know to peoples reasons.


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## DonOtt (Jul 10, 2009)

More info is needed on what her issue is and what deal was struck but IMHO, to keep you name clean and to ensure repeat business, I would make the customer happy.

Of course it depends on what her complaint is.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Interesting topic.

I agree that more information on the specifics would help. You really don't say if her unhappiness is the result of her own design choices, or if she is dissatisfied with the workmanship. It's a fine line between keeping the customer happy (and thus protecting yourself against bad word-of-mouth advertising) and letting an unreasonable customer take advantage of you.

One thing to consider is this: If she really is being unreasonable, she is most likely the same way in other areas of her life. That being the case, people who know her will not pay much attention if she does bad-mouth you. And even if you do give her a refund, if she was not happy with your work in the first place she is not likely to recommend you.

Based on the limited information, my gut instinct is to tell her she can either keep it, or you will attempt to sell it for her and give her whatever you can get for the piece.


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## boyd8 (Aug 23, 2009)

This woman had seen some of my other work and asked me to make a reception desk for her beauty spa business. I talked with her and talked dimensions and material ( walnut). I came home, studied the correct dimensions and built what I thought she wanted and when I arrived she said she wanted a desk. She had told me about a previous woodworker who had been hired to do some work for her but split with the money without completing the work, that was a red flag i missed. I think I did a great job, she has a unique and beautiful piece. I retired from cooking and started the woodshop before retirement, it seems I have a knack, when I did the farmers market last summer I sold may pieces and received many good comments on my work. my first reaction was similar to Jtworkshop but I know she is only one bad apple and others are more than happy with my work. I am leaning towards offering to resell it as suggested but the real odds of that are near zero, this is Alaska and a custom reception desk is not a hot item.Thanks to all who have offered advice and opinions, I value them all. There are very few craftsmen in Fairbanks and even though I have started a school and put out ads for fellow craftsmen to come and share their knowledge but no reply's. So no one the ask here. Thanks again. Russ


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

Sometimes you can't protect a customer from their own bad decisions…

Case in point, a client wanted a "Smurf" Blue high gloss lacquer kitchen. We made no less than six color samples until we got just the shade of Blue she was looking for. It was a hideous color of Blue with Purple undertones-did I use the word "Smurf"?

I tried fruitlessly to talk her out of this color. In the end, we had redundant sign offs in the contract including an actual door sample finished and cut in half with her signature on both halves of the door. One half for her, one half for us.

On the day of the installation, she informed us that she hated it. (As I told her she would). She claimed we got the color wrong, but it matched our sample. She claimed that wasn't the sample she had, so we had her bring her half of the door. It was a perfect match.

She got exactly what she asked for, just, not what she wanted. And no, she didn't get her money back.


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## tenontim (Feb 24, 2008)

Make sure you get all of the info they want and clear your drawings with the client. If they are wanting a custom made piece, I wear them out with drawings, finish samples (keep half of the sample for your reference), leather samples(if appropriate). Get them to sign off on everything. If there are design faults with their request, I'll point that out. If they don't like the finished product, it's their fault. If they want something else, then that's another piece they'll have to pay you to make.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

DS251: That was a brilliant way of protecting yourself!


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

As others have said get everything confirmed in writing.With color matches write on the sample approved by----the customers name and date and have them sign it. The same thing goes with drawings and at time of picking the piece up or delivery it have them sign something that says the project has been completed an meets their approval. Nothing will stop a flaky customer from being flaky but at least you will have proof of what happen if they should take you to small claims court.


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## tom427cid (Aug 21, 2011)

Hi all,
To add a slightly different twist on the problem at hand--when I do a custom piece,and there is"agreement" on color, size, etc I generally require $1/2 up front.Balance is due upon completion. I explain to the customer that in the highly unlikely event there is some problem,they change their mind or whatever, that the materials are paid for. I can(don't like to) absorb my time but not the money(got burned a long time ago-no more). Also the fact that the customer is financially involved tends to make their sometimes fickle nature not so fickle.I also inform the customer that if they refuse the project it will be sold for whatever the balance is. So the notion that somebody will get a good deal at their expence generally doesn't sit well.
Just my .02
tom


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## michelletwo (Feb 22, 2010)

I stopped making custom work for people a long time ago. They envision stuff they want, then can't describe it well enuf to me to make it. I think I understand & draw it & they ok it..then when it was built they didn't like the wood(which they picked out) the size isn't what they envisioned (they said ok before) etc.etc. I make things & if people like them they buy, If not, then I eat them. So I have had to be very knowedgeable about the buying public. Hope you enjoy your reception desk. live & learn


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

This thread just took a very dark turn.
I like my people well done, hold the Mayo.


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

The perils of woodworking for a living.

I had a client who didnt like the colour samples and in the end I painted a full sheet of MDF white, then glazed the entire sheet, then cut the sheet into 32 pieces 12" x 12"………took all 32 pieces and showed them to the client. She started throwing the pieces around claiming "How could you even bring this colour "……and settled liking one of the samples……….and they were all the exact same colour ?

had a designer come in and look at a custom colour claiming there wasnt enough "Yellow" in, showed her the exact same sample 2 weeks later and she loved it ?

had a client claim the "finsih" was imperfect and she refused to pay the balance. Upon investigation of said "flaw" I noticed she had a compulsive obsessive habit of putting hand cream on and then "feeling the doors". I said nothing and removed a curved 5 piece door made from curly sycamore and walnut inlays, all from the same flitch. Returned to the shop and cleaned it with mineral spirits. Called her, told her she had an OCD issue with hand cream and I wanted the balance before returning the door. She said she would buy a door elsewhere and I said "Good Luck"……….2 weeks passed and she paid the bill in full.

In your case I think if you return the money, you are %$#@%, and if you say no refunds you are *&%$#. Its a choice of picking the best of two evils.


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

After reading all the posts to this thread after my posting,I've come to the conclusion I was wrong.
Keep the piece and sell it if you can. Keep the money. Lose her for a customer, you don't need her. Owing to your statement of not being very many craftsmen in your area she can figure that out the next time she wants some work done and no one wants to be her customer.


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

In my early days in this business, I learned a lot from one of our salesmen. He once did an estimate for a job and then doubled it before showing to the potential customer. When I asked him why he doubled it, he said that the particular builder had a reputation for being difficult and not always paying his bills. This was his way of not getting a bid he didn't want to get, without having to tell the guy we didn't want his business.

Apparently, the builder had burned a lot of other guys in this town too, because he came back after a couple of weeks and accepted the high bid. Even at double the price, we were the low bidders in town for him.

Word of advice: Don't be THAT guy!


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

@Wud, I meant he should sell the piece(if he can) for what ever money he can get out of it.


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## renners (Apr 9, 2010)

Sorry to hear about your woes with this client.
What didn't she like about the desk? Can she be specific or is she trying to get out of paying for it? 
If she just said "I want a desk" and you've done it without any direction or clues to styling, you've stumbled into a minefield. If you had signed off drawings you'd be in a much stronger position. 
If you've done something unexpected or unconventional like putting dovetail keys in the top (nice but not everyone's cup of tea), or even left knots or sapwood in as a feature without telling her, I'd say she'd have a reasonable case for wanting it to be changed.
If her argument is reasonable, I personally, would put it right (do you want her bad mouthing you to her beauty spa clientelle?). I'm also curious as to whether she took delivery of it and did she say anything about it at the time? 
This is a very interesting topic as you can tell by the replies, and a subject close to the hearts of the LJ's who do this for a living, so if you can give us the specifics, we'd have a better idea.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

You have to make drawings or be working from a photograph to stand
any chance of pleasing clients reliably. Vague verbal descriptions are
no standard from which to build work expected to please clients.

I'd recommend you eat the costs, personally. The damage to reputation
is not worth it in this case. You can cut the thing up and use the wood
for a portfolio piece.


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## woodworm (Jul 27, 2008)

I not am able to read all the posts above. So my views is conditional.
If there wasn't any written detailed specs. and you managed to complete the job as per general agreement, let say a piece of furniture,. you souldn't return the deposit. Keep it.

I love to see the pic of the said piece…!!


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## boyd8 (Aug 23, 2009)

Turns out she cancelled the check right after she paid for it. So I will get it tomorrow, probably with a pre cancelled check and I am sure she will not like the delivery/pickup charge. I figure she would bad mouth me either way so that is the way it is. From the comments to this situation I thank you all. I have learned a lot from all of you and it has made me grow as a craftsman. My decision on future commission work is this; 100%materials and 50% labor both non refundable. All in a signed agreement. I am also raising my shop rate for potential problem clients as well. Thanks Ds251! It is a part of life, I am now on my third piece of repairing antique furniture with some great folks so my feelings aren't hurt in the least. My work sells itself so her bad mouthing me is of no concern, she would do so either way.


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## woodworm (Jul 27, 2008)

I am with you Russ. You are on the right track. Don't worry about one client't bad mouthing, as you said "your work sells itself" 
Good luck!.


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## ryansworkshop (Dec 2, 2011)

The first and most important thing in doing commissioned work is C. Y. A.

As for the one who say do whatever to make her happy… Well, some people you can't.

Another thing I have been doing for along time is asking a question. "Where did you hear about me?"

On a spreadsheet I have the names of all my clients from the last 10 years. I put a star in one of the cells each time I get a referral from that person. You would be stunned at the facts of who gives you good word of mouth and who does not.

The devil is in the details, both in the building and business end.

I think it is safe to say 5 of 10 customers, maybe more will try and bargain you down, beat you up with the nit picking and try to reduce your net.

Protect yourself or you won't have to worry about having a shop.

Good day,
Ryan


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## JGM0658 (Aug 16, 2011)

and built what I thought she wanted

Right there is your mistake Russ, you never ever build a commission piece unless you have an *exact* description of what the customer wants *with* drawings approved by them and signed. This is going to become a you said, she said ordeal. OTOH if she gave you a check and cancelled it right away without notifying you, this might be grounds for you to take her to small claims court. You will be the one who can better judge the amount of time you want to spend hassling with this. If it was me I would say no refund for the deposit, get the desk back and either sell it or use it for some promotional material and keep it in the shop for people to see. This is one fo the reason I have upped my initial charge to 75% deposit with the remainder on delivery and nothing gets off my truck unless I see the remainder check first. You would not believe how many times I have heard "my husband forgot to leave me a check", " I lost my check book", "I will stop by and pay you with a CC"...no sireee….no money no ticket…


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## canadianchips (Mar 12, 2010)

Sorry to hear this ! I learned many years ago from my mentors, I had some customers that were known to pull shady stunts, I would make them pay for the materials, build it, then if they were unhappy with my work all i would loose is the labor. As above mentioned WORD of MOUTH is advertising, I made a fireplace mantel last fall, wrong size, I ATE the loss and built them one that fit there needs, these customers felt so bad they tried hard to sell it for me ! I still belive MOST people are good, there is always ONE bad one somewhere, (They are not worth worrying about)


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

She paid for it and then canceled the check? Sue her in small claims court.


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