# Didn't know I'd hit such a nerve!



## Padre (Nov 5, 2008)

I think it's time to just shut this thread down and let it cool off.


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## GaryC (Dec 31, 2008)

Padre, I agree with you however, some of us can't use the pay pal method of donating. I have contacted Martin about it and was told that at the present time, that is the only way it can be done. There may be a reason that some don't donate. But, 166 our of 15K, well…...


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## knotscott (Feb 27, 2009)

Padre - I hang out here quite a bit, but hang out mostly on the tool forum. Somehow I've manage to miss any mention of a fundraiser. Where's this info you speak of?


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## RvK (Nov 22, 2009)

EricRFP is donating some items for an auction to raise money for the site…http://lumberjocks.com/EricRFP/blog/13393

I'd definetly encourage everyone who can to donate even a dollar, the money to run an otherwise free site has to come from somewhere and if we don't support it eventually no matter how much we might love it it will cease to exist from lack of funds, and I'd hate to see LJs crash. That would make Jei sad.

Padre made a very good point, this site is as much a resource as any other, IMHO one of the most valuable ones. Whats a few dollars to keep it going, when many of us consider spending hundreds on a single tool. In fact, if we all donated just 1% of what we spent on tools, imagine how quickly that would add up. In fact, thats what I'm going to do from now on. I challenge everyone else to do the same.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

There is a statistical error in your calculations.
When you separate the wheat from the chaff, you may be surprised. Lots of those 'members' on our roster are simply ghosts. Think of this example: That girl in China that started a thread" Believe in Chinese Plywood"...remember her? She was here to advocate a foreign product, and for all we know, never made a wooden object in her life. There are plenty of other, illegitimate members on the roster, one or more of which was an alter-ego of a member with whom I wished no further contact. Then, there is the spill-over from the home renovation and gardening sister sites of Lumber jocks. If you wish to participate in either of those sites you must re-register, and I'm sure a few of the members from those sites have come to participate here on an issue of tangential interest.
*Padre: * You are absolutely right! We should all be willing to pitch in!!
Though there perhaps is no valid, compelling reason to refresh the LJ roster, my own guess is that there are perhaps 500-600 people who are active members. Should we ask through a show of hands?


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## papadan (Mar 6, 2009)

Gary and others, if you don't have or don't want a PayPal account, then contact another member in good standing and offer to send them a check so they can donate on your behalf.


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## interpim (Dec 6, 2008)

I hate to say it, but a website that gets as much traffic as Lumberjocks doesn't need user contributions IMO.

According to Alexa over the past 6 months traffic on this site has increased exponentially, and is most likely going to be a common name among woodworkers in the next few years to come. I only see success for this site.

There are ads on this site, and I am pretty sure the ad revenue is covering expenses, since running a website really isn't that expensive.

Here is the Alexa report if anyone is interested.
http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/lumberjocks.com


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## GMman (Apr 11, 2008)

Padre if you look up jocks you're going to see 458 pages and you're going to see members on for close to 4 years and 0 post so I always said that 15000 member is no a good number.
You can start from page 458 and work back and lots of those members could be remove.

I had my son in law sign in at the same time as myself and he never went back on and never posted but he is still a member??


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## Padre (Nov 5, 2008)

I don't see a lot of advertisors or advertisements on this site at all. I doubt ad income is all that great.

And let's prune out some of the 15,000. Let's say that only 5% are active. So the math is this:

15000x.05=750. 166/750=22.13%. So 22% of the members support the site while 78% don't. Those percentages are still pretty sad imho.


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## GMman (Apr 11, 2008)

I know what you mean Padre but why show 15000 and maybe we are only 13000??
Lets get a true number to start with.


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## daltxguy (Sep 7, 2007)

No matter what the true number of members, I would think 1% would be about an average for voluntary donations. How much does it cost to run the site? Is the site in danger of folding because of a lack of revenues? I don't know the answer to those questions. If it was, I would consider donating.

I have not donated but I feel I give back by offering a free plugin (Cutlist for Sketchup) and support for it, exclusively here in LJ. I know many members have joined simply to ask questions about the Cutlist plugin.

As for merchandise, I don't need any of that stuff. If there was a shop apron, I might consider buying one but there still isn't one and being in New Zealand, the shipping usually is double the item price.


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## ellen35 (Jan 1, 2009)

Tried to donate… pay pal is the problem!
Happy to do my small part when pay pal is fixed.


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## jbertelson (Sep 26, 2009)

The PayPal thing is kinda a distraction. You can donate with your credit card, but you have to get a PayPal number to do it. I don't ever intend to use PayPal, and intially balked. Talked to Martin about it. Then decided, oh well, so I get a PayPal account I never use. So that's what I did. So don't let that deter you. Just go through the motions, and ignore the fact you end up with a PayPal account.

I am not pushing anyone to donate, but the PayPal thing is not a real obstacle. Donation is a very personal thing. I don't donate to very many causes, because I do a lot of charity in my job…....a lot of charity…and I know where the charity is going.

But for me, LJ's fit my criteria, and that puts it in a very exclusive club. Maybe not for you.


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## Padre (Nov 5, 2008)

That's the think that's great with this site Jim, no one HAS to donate.


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## Padre (Nov 5, 2008)

Actually Steve, from the church side of things, the part I know about, the averages are 5/20/80. 5% of the congregation pays 75% of the budget, 20% of the congregation pays 22% of the budget, and 80% of the congregation makes up the final 3%. Most churches survive on endowment money left from previous generations. It's that way with volunteering too, 20% of the congregation does 80% of the volunteer work.


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## GaryC (Dec 31, 2008)

PayPal IS a problem when you live a long ways out in the country. They do now accept my address or zip. I can't set up an account. However Dan, I would be more than willing to send you a check so you could make the donation for me if you will PM me your address


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## pashley (Mar 22, 2008)

Part of it is psychology - the more people you have in a given pool, the less chance one particular person will donate - thinking someone else will.

Wanna help Martin out? Click on the Google ads occasionally.


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## jbertelson (Sep 26, 2009)

*pashley*
Good observation, good suggestion….........that's what Martin says…..........


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## interpim (Dec 6, 2008)

If you don't see advertisements on LJ's then your not paying attention LOL…

I count 5 alone on this forum topic alone. And every forum topic is the same. Several along the sides, and one at the bottom of the page. they are unobtrusive which is good, but as a former google ads member I know you get money for just having ads loaded, and even more money from ad clicks.

I think i do my part by clicking ads here and there on LJ… Some ads give single click payments of .50 or more each, depending on if someone signs up or purchases something. With the traffic this site gets, I would guess the ad revenue at somewhere around $200 a month or so, and a website of this type costs around $250 a year to run depending on the host. I also am estimating low on the revenue, and high on the costs for the "benefit of the doubt".

With that said, I am not trying to discourage anyone from donating, but merely explaining why I do not. I enjoy LJ's and hope it continues on well into the future… I have no fear that it will be around for quite a while.


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## Padre (Nov 5, 2008)

I really, really don't see any ads Interpim. But maybe it's because I use Firefox with adblock. None along the sides other than 2 buttons that say 'all advertisers' and 'advertise with us.' And nothing on the bottom either, just a big ol' empty box.


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## Padre (Nov 5, 2008)

I'm now on with IE8. Ads galore.


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## juniorjock (Feb 3, 2008)

Do What??? I don't understand socal…..?


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## GaryK (Jun 25, 2007)

You have to remember that only about 7700 people have made more than one post.


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## Padre (Nov 5, 2008)

Socalwood, I am sorry that you have been hurt. My intention was never to call any one person out, but to point out that this is a good site and if we enjoy it, that maybe it's worth contributing a small amount to it. Unlike you, I have no wood to offer nor do I have years and years of experience to give to others.

I do enjoy this site and I donated $5.00. To me, that was a small way of helping keep this site going and offering what so many of us enjoy.

As far are you personally are concerned, I would refer people to you. I think it's an "LJ type of thing to do."

I'm signing off this particular post now. I think it should just die.


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## kolwdwrkr (Jul 27, 2008)

I've had contests and given away prizes. I've also contributed by posting how to blogs and have given ideas on how to make the site better and more user friendly. I also had the idea of building the ultimate lumberjock project and selling it at auction. The proceeds would go to the site or a cherity. Although nobody is really interested, it was still my way of contributing. I think donating my time and knowledge, as well as the prizes I have given should be considered donating to the site. In my opinion it benefits it more so then me giving 1 dollar. But I'm not considered a donor or contributer, just a member. So, in my opinion, I think it should depend on what you do here and how you use the site. If you only use the site to your benefit then you should donate. If you use it in a fashion that benefits others then you essentially are donating something. If you don't contribute anything at all, not even one post and remain at that status for more then x amount of months you should be removed and have to start over if you want to rejoin.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

Money talks…BS walks.


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## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

So according to some folks I'm getting that if I don't send money I should stop visiting the website. Hmm…that sounds off to me.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

Abbott,
To give or not to give is up to the individual. I'm intrigued by the self-conscious replies from people who simply chose not to give. No explanation is necessary.


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## JohnGray (Oct 6, 2007)

I donated.


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## jockmike2 (Oct 10, 2006)

I just do not understand why people get so hung up on how many people are "REALLY" on Lumberjocks. Who gives a flying f+++!!! I've been on this site for over 3 years and no one has bugged me for one thin dime. So everyone having a cow about donating take a flying leap! Go someplace else to bellyache. I'm tired of the bulls+++ coming out of your cakeholes!


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## mmh (Mar 17, 2008)

So far this forum has been FREE to visit and use with unlimited access. How many magazines or other publications would you have to purchase to get what is offered here? Not to mention pay to view cable TV. So, how about breaking open that moth eaten pocketbook and donating a few $$ to support a forum that you enjoy? And don't forget the fun contests and not too shabby prizes that Martin has drummed up. There's no limit stated, so a few $$ that you would spend on an annual subscription shouldn't break your bank and will help keep this community going.

Stop whining and make something creative and help support the forum if you wish to see it survive.


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## jockmike2 (Oct 10, 2006)

Thank you Meilie!


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## firecaster (Jan 15, 2009)

OK, I'm now on the doner's list. Would have been before but I've missed the donor button.

I enjoy this site so much I'm willing to support it monetarily. I would rather do that than click on ads.

I think alot of people give to the site even if it's only positive comments. But that don't pay the bills.


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## PurpLev (May 30, 2008)

I beg to differ firecaster - generating activities on this site and keeping it busy pays more bills than donating $10.

thats why on the home page of this site , it is proudly presented "we hare xxxxxx lumberjocks, making xxxxxx posts, with xxxxxx project…etc" thats actually what pays the bills.

more power to all the donors. but no need to freak out or anything. it's a website, and works just like any other website.


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## russv (Sep 21, 2009)

we shouldn't pressure anyone into donating. Donating is a personal thing and not for anyone else to judge. If this sight needs income, set up a fee for all to pay. This will weed out the real BS'ers and allow those that choose to be a member.

I am amazed that this sight has lasted this long as a free sight. As to have many members, I have never seen more than 100 members on at the same time and generally, only about 60 at a time, some of us alot more than others.

russv


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## jockmike2 (Oct 10, 2006)

Donate, don't donate who cares, really, no one gives a crap if YOU individually donate anything. My gosh you guys act like you are being singled out to donate, nobody cares if you do or not. Just quit bitching like little girls about it.


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## Sawkerf (Dec 31, 2009)

I'm fairly new here and had no idea that donations supported this forum. It's the first time I ever heard of something like that. - lol

I might be interested in a contribution or membership fee (I could probably make it a tax deduction), but won't work thru PayPal. I had a bad experience with them a few years ago and they're history for me.


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## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

I visit about a half dozen forums around the Internet and I have donated or offered to donate to one or two. However I haven't yet seen a post as rude as *jockmike2's* begging for money. *Mike* maybe you should make yourself a sign and park your bellyaching behind on a street corner somewhere as you beg for a buck or two.


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## cranbrook2 (May 28, 2006)

Tell us how you really feel Mike )


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## firecaster (Jan 15, 2009)

Purplev,

I'm pretty ignorant about how that works. As I said though, I don't click on ads. I thought the amount of clicks generated the funds not the potential amount of clicks? I'm asking only because I enjoy this site so much that I want it to be self sustaining. If it can't be then we either need to donate or go to a fee system.

Hopefully, the ad revenue will support it. But if it does then why the donate button?

Anyone else is welcome to answer so I can learn.


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## PurpLev (May 30, 2008)

firecaster - didn't mean to be negative, or anything like that. just putting some light on the web industry for what it is. you are correct. bottom line - clicks make money, but on top of that, the number of registered users (whether active or not) is a bargaining card when dealing with sponsors and business partners. would you be willing to sponsor a website that has 5 accounts on it - or one that has 15000? 15000 is a lot of potential for partners and sponsors, even if the real numbers are lower.

on another not - I have yet seen 1 business on the web or off the web, that only relied on a single source of income, or a single supplier…. or a single of anything for that matter.

it really is all business. nothing personal. and I'm talking from a business point of view. not a personal one. on a personal note, I really like this website.


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## firecaster (Jan 15, 2009)

Purplev,

I didn't think you were being negative. I took it as a comment on a website and nothing more. I think the arguments that start on here are usuually due to misunderstanding intent since we don't see context, facial expressions, etc.

I put my comment about donating on here only to encourage others, that like me, take more than they give. I get enough enjoyment from this site I think it's worth a few dollars.

Of course, the strength of this site is the expertise and willingness to share.


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## shopdog (Nov 9, 2008)

I really like this place. 
Didn't know it was in financial trouble.
I want to help…what's 5 bucks these days?...nothing
If 5000 of us give 5 bucks each, that's something.
I'm gonna do it. you all should too.


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## shopdog (Nov 9, 2008)

I'm looking around the site, and I don't see a link to donate via paypal…
Help!


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## firecaster (Jan 15, 2009)

It's under the My Lumberjocks button.


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## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

I don't think to many folks mind donating a few bucks if they enjoy the website, I may donate something myself in time. But some members trying to badger others into donating isn't going to work.


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## jockmike2 (Oct 10, 2006)

HEY ABBOTT!!!! before you start attacking me individually why don't you put YOUR mug up there instead of the Nugge! I am not begging for anything, I have only donated $20.00 to the site in 3+ plus yrs. You are the BS artist I can't stand around here, all you do is stir up trouble and never contribute anything, and don't have the balls to put your mug up there because you are a chicken ********************, and trouble maker and contribute nothing.


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## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

LOL *Mike* What exactly do I need to contribute to make you happy?


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## pommy (Apr 17, 2008)

Abbott dont make personal attacks that is not what we LJ's is about every one on here has the right to donate or not and if you read Mike's piece properly that is what he said just some of you girls dont understand who cares if you donate or not or show your work this site is about sharing knowledge and showing what we can do with that knowledge

there said my bit


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## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

I usually don't *Pommy* but a pleasant request would go a heck of a lot further then trying to badger members into donating. Why don't we refer to a few more members that haven't donated yet as "girls" and see how that works?


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## jockmike2 (Oct 10, 2006)

Show your face for starters and quit hiding, if you are going to be out spoken. Pommey has it right, I meant no personal attacks to begin with, if you have a gripe, first what are you griping about, no one is holding a gun to your head to make a contribution, so what in the heck are you complaining about? Or are you guys just Bitching for the sake of it?


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## majeagle1 (Oct 29, 2008)

I have been watching this thread from the beginning and I only have one question to ask….....
Why, why, why in a thread that started out with such good intentions and for such a good cause, does it have to turn NEGATIVE !!!


> ?


??? There have been other topics within the coffee forum that have done the same and I just don't understand why some people have to be so sensitive and negative….....

I'm done, no more comments, I just think it is sad on such a wonderful site.

Having said that…........... I am proud to say that I have made my "voluntary" donation to a very wonderful cause, LJ's website….

I only donated $10.00 this time, but that is a start and I'll donate more when I can. I feel that I have gotten a hundredfold more than that from this site, not only in help and assistance, but in friendship. Such a very small price to pay.


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## pommy (Apr 17, 2008)

Abbott no one is badgering anyone here we all have the right not to donate as much as we have the right to donate there is no right or wrong mate and that is what Mike was saying


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## pommy (Apr 17, 2008)

Abbott i have a question for you

*How many people do you think would be here if we had to subscribe to lumberjocks*


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## jockmike2 (Oct 10, 2006)

I apologize Abbott for the bad mouthing, it was uncalled for and really not me. I guess a poor subject with me, anyway, I should have kept my cakehole shut, nuff said,


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## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

*Show your face for starters and quit hiding, if you are going to be out spoken. Pommey has it right, I meant no personal attacks to begin with, if you have a gripe, first what are you griping about, no one is holding a gun to your head to make a contribution, so what in the heck are you complaining about? Or are you guys just Bitching for the sake of it?*

First of all *Mike* I'm not hiding if you find yourself out in Oregon send me a PM and you are welcome to come on by the house. Second The Nuge makes me laugh, if you can't deal with that, tough. Third, when reading this thread the trend is towards making negative comments directed towards folks who haven't donated. Some didn't even know that donating was asked for. I think that after reading this thread some folks may never contribute to this site.

Personally I enjoy this website even though you find my presence here difficult. I enjoy some of the projects I have seen here and some of the friends I have made. When I finally catch up with my other projects I may post a project or two myself, right now I am tied up with a shop and an antique pickup. I also find it amazing that some have to justify why they haven't had time to post a project to this site to keep some of the other posters happy.


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## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

No problem* Mike* I read your profile and figured you were a nice guy to begin with.


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## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

*Abbott i have a question for you

How many people do you think would be here if we had to subscribe to lumberjocks*

I have no idea *Pommy*.


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## jockmike2 (Oct 10, 2006)

Abbott, I saw the Nuge with the Amboy Dukes way back in 1967 at Grandmothers in Lansing, MI. and know him personally. He is a wild man!! Again my apologies.


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## russv (Sep 21, 2009)

i said earlier, do not push others into donating. immediately, some complained.

just so you know, i have donating, long before anyone in this forum started whining about how if you don't donate, you shouldn't complain. yes this includes you mike. some went ballistic right after my last comment. i spent 2 days at a woodworking show last year (along with other volunteers) spreading the word at no pay. I have never even mentioned it till now, and now only because of certain people.

i agree with abbott, and you can see my face anytime you want mike, it's posted right here in my message. i'm not a girl and i hide from no one.

russv


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

Hi, Abbott!
Talk about "Intensities In Ten Cities", eh?


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## jockmike2 (Oct 10, 2006)

Russv, that's just the point! I am not pushing anyone to donate, Jeez, Read what I wrote, I am NOT PUSHING ANYONE TO DONATE, I REPEAT, ALL I SAID WAS STOP COMPLAINING ABOUT IT, I DON'T CARE IF YOU GIVE OR NOT, I REALLY DON'T CARE! AND WHY DO YOU CARE HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE ACTUALLY USING LJ's….I don't understand that either.


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