# which panel hand saws should be in one's arsenal?



## Holbs (Nov 4, 2012)

I have been doing lots of reading about 24"+ handsaws last couple of days, and have my variety of estate sale plates being cleaned up along with some backsaws. I will soon have to decide how many I keep and what their purpose are for.
Let me see if I get this straight:
1.) you should have both rip & crosscut for 4/4 softwood.
2.) you should have both rip & crosscut for 4/4 hardwood (different rake angle than softwood).
3.) you should have both rip & crosscut for 8/4 softwood.
4.) you should have both rip & crosscut for 8/4 hardwood (different PPI than 4/4).
5.) you should have some saw for plywood or behind truck seats.
With searching through previous posts here on LJ's, the recommendation is usually just a single pair of 1 rip and 1 crosscut, not 4 pairs. Is it necessary to have dedicated handsaws down to the minute job detail? It certainly would not hurt in my case as I have…6 or 7 being cleaned up right now and could always acquire a 8th somewhere with the amount of handsaws at estate auctions I come across.
What would I use the saws for? I am hoping to build my joinery bench and eventual roubo bench all from hand tools, and other future projects but yet still use machinery 1/2 the time for stuff.


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## RonAylor1760 (Aug 17, 2016)

I don't know about all of that … I have/use but one cross cut and one rip for everything. I also have one back saw for use with a miter block, one tenon saw for … well tenons, and one half-back saw that I use for long rebates. My rip saw of choice is a No. 7. I do have in the shop a No. 6 rip saw that hasn't seen much use … I just can't seem to part with it. I use no machinery … unless you want to consider my reciprocating treadle saw, hand crank drill press, and spring pole lathe a machine.


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## Holbs (Nov 4, 2012)

Ron, what PPI & rake do you use?
How does the rip saw work with 3/4" thick versus 2" thick hardwood?


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## summerfi (Oct 12, 2013)

I would say focus on quality rather than quantity. Many of the saws I see in your picture appear to be post-1950 era saws when quality had begun to decrease significantly. Look for vintage saws made prior to 1928. The period from about 1870 to 1920 was the peak of saw manufacturing quality. Those saws are still readily available at reasonable prices if you search a little.

As for how many and what type, I believe 4 handsaws would be adequate for most people. Backsaws are a whole other topic. Of the 4 saws, I would have 2 panel saws (less than 24") and two full size handsaws (greater than 24"). For the panel saws, I would have a rip of around 9 ppi and a crosscut of around 11 ppi. For the full size handsaws, I would have a rip of around 6 ppi and a crosscut of around 8 ppi. That would get you by on just about any job unless you got into really big material.

Perhaps even more important than how many or what type of saws is to ensure that your saws are properly and adequately sharpened. Even the best saw will do a poor or inefficient job if it is not properly maintained and sharpened.


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## RonAylor1760 (Aug 17, 2016)

Holbs - My rip saw cuts both 3/4" and 2" stock like butter. I keep all of my saws sharp, oiled, and with little set. I have worked through walnut, cherry, black oak, birch, maple, mahogany, ash, alder, and pine with no issue. I guess it's all what you get used to.

Cross = 7 ppi 15° rake
Rip = 7 ppi 0° rake
Half-Back = 10 ppi 0° rake
Back = 12 ppi 0° rake
Tenon = 14 ppi 0° rake
Dovetail = 18 ppi 0° rake


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## Holbs (Nov 4, 2012)

Bob…from what I can see from the etchings, I have the Disston 23 (I believe early 1900's), Disston 95 (post WW II i believe), Pax backsaw, and 2 more Disston's that for sure are in the last 20 years. The other ones are no names for 26" saws. However, the 3 or 4 backsaws that I have yet to clean up are Sheffield plates by local makers (rather interesting), one showing 1917 date.
But yea… I'll be keeping an eye out at auctions for saws that I can identify as being better quality. It seems the Disston D8 is highly recommended. Can not afford newer $200+ saws.


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## Holbs (Nov 4, 2012)

Looking at the emblems and Disston Online Reference, looks like I have 3 Disstons (D23, D95, and unknown) but all medallions are Disston USA which means after the war. 
I have one E.C. Atkins with AAA medallion which is dated 1893-1952.
I have one E.C. Atkins partially etched, but no medallion on handle.
I have one Warranted Superior with the eagle wings folded along side, not out sprayed like most medallions.
And then a couple Spear & Jackson backsaws, wzeyak & sons backsaw, etc.
Looks like it's hit or miss for pre-war / post-war. I'll continue with these saws since I have no others, and practice sharpening, jointing, etc.


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## summerfi (Oct 12, 2013)

Holbs - The Spear & Jacksons may be good saws if they are early. The wzeyak is probably a Tyzack.


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## Holbs (Nov 4, 2012)

Ron… your 7 ppi 15 degree rake (where is that degree symbol?), do you use the standard 20 degree fleam angle?

Bob… you say backsaws are another matter. How so? 
What is not in any pictures are my 3 backsaws from Veritas: dovetail, tenon rip, and tenon crosscut.
I would imagine the need of a single 14" backsaw unless there is need for both rip & crosscut. What I have left from cleaning are 5 14" and 2 12" backsaws (which most are unknown date of manufactured).


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## summerfi (Oct 12, 2013)

Bob… you say backsaws are another matter. How so?

The primary use of handsaws is for breaking stock down into smaller pieces. The primary use of backsaws is for joinery.


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## Tim457 (Jan 11, 2013)

Only you can decide if having 3 extra sets of saws tuned to specific operations is worth it to you. I haven't tested all those combinations so I can't say how much more efficient they are, but I would think that unless you enjoy cleaning up saws, then it's not worth your time for the slight increase in efficiency. It would take an awful lot of breaking down stock by hand before the hours of time cleaning up the saws would be made back in time savings in the cuts. But again, if you enjoy it, go for it.


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## RonAylor1760 (Aug 17, 2016)

> Ron… your 7 ppi 15 degree rake (where is that degree symbol?), do you use the standard 20 degree fleam angle?
> 
> - Holbs


Holbs - Yes, 20° fleam on the cross cut saw. As to the degree symbol … simply hold down your Alt key and type 248 … once you release the Alt key you will see the ° … if using italics for emphasis you might consider following italicized word with Alt255 … this inserts a space and looks less crowded. I use the Alt255 to arrange the photos on my blog … the portrait photos are preceded with fifteen Alt255 characters to place them in the center of the landscape photos … cool trick! See Alt Codes.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

On a Macbook, the 'degrees' symbol is Option-Shift-8. Wanted to figure this out for a while, this post pushed it to the forefront. 

°


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## gargey (Apr 11, 2016)

What about 1/2" stock, or 1.5" stock, or hard softwoods and soft hardwoods? You need at least 6 trillion saws to be able to saw wood.

Not.


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## RonAylor1760 (Aug 17, 2016)

> On a Macbook, the degrees symbol is Option-Shift-8. Wanted to figure this out for a while, this post pushed it to the forefront.
> 
> °
> 
> - Smitty_Cabinetshop


Thanks, Smitty … I guess I should have specified that the above was for Windows.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

No problem at all, Ron. Mac users know there's no ALT key on our machines, just like there's no Command (⌘) key in Windows.


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## Tim457 (Jan 11, 2013)

Option-Shift is the alt key on my keyboard at least, Smitty. It says alt on the top of the key.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

Will wonders never cease… windows and mac OS, coming together!


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## RonAylor1760 (Aug 17, 2016)

> Will wonders never cease… windows and mac OS, coming together!
> 
> - Smitty_Cabinetshop


Kinda like HF and LV … and of course the Chinese!

Sorry … perhaps this should be for the other thread … :<)


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## Holbs (Nov 4, 2012)

Tim…that is true. So many saws = maintenance. But that would also apply to chisels, planes, etc  I have at my disposal 6 26" handsaws and 7 various backsaws, most of which are after WW II so quality is suspect. But at same time, they are what I have on hand (though will be looking hard at auctions and such for quality handsaws/backsaws as they come up). Before I started this joinery bench journey, I actually knew nothing about saws. Could not tell you the physical characteristics of either a ripsaw or crosscut or what a fleam angle is  So all of this is a learning experience.
Unsure which ones I will keep, which ones go bye bye. Maybe I'll keep them all (I did clean them) to make my future saw till busy


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## Holbs (Nov 4, 2012)

nope…can't get Alt248 or any alt codes to come up.
hmm…


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## RonAylor1760 (Aug 17, 2016)

If you are using Windows … press and hold down the ALT key … while being held down us the number pad and type 248 … then release the ALT key … the ° symbol will then appear.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

I tend to keep a few saws…









YMMV


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## Holbs (Nov 4, 2012)

° ohh! I was typing 248 above the letter keys, not numeric keyboard. ok..got it, thanks Ron 
Bandit… I actually like the look of many saws!


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## Just_Iain (Apr 5, 2017)

Bandit,

That is a nice looking saw till.

Holbs,

With eBay, Craigslist, yard sales and estate auctions it's real easy to buy too many as you may have discovered. The original set you mentioned of a rip and cross cut are a good start. Then if so inclined, Coping Saw for detail, Back saw for 'neater work' such as dovetails and tenons, a Mitre Box & Saw if so inclined, and the list goes on. It's not how many you have but wether you have saws for those special needs.

Personally I have 13 saws that I'm aware of (others might be in hiding). Only a few are duplicates and that's because I jumped on eBay too quickly. Best of luck on your collection.


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## Holbs (Nov 4, 2012)

Justin (or is it really Just_tain?)...
yep, that is how I got hold of these saws: auction lots that came with other items I wanted. I know more about saws than I did a month ago with all this shaping & sharpening. I'll be on the look out for hand saws and back saws of vintage (more stable, better quality metal) origin since I have these to tide me over. At least these give me good practice.


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## jimintx (Jan 23, 2014)

I'm going to jump in to this conversation even though i don't have the hand saw knowledge to truly add useful info. I have a few (4) hand saws that are from family members, so I have them 98% for nostalgia and 2% for potential use. Regardless of that display vs use ratio, I do like having them, for sure.

As I "listen" here, I come up with two points that I would like to see some discussion of:

First, it seems if you are a saw collector then you will have as many as you can find that are of the quality you want and the price you can handle. If that is the scenario, then maybe it isn't really a matter of what you "need" at all. I'd say it is clear that some of you are collectors.

Second, I am somewhat surprised to note the comments suggesting only pre-WW II saws are of useful, or good quality. Seriously, you guys are saying that no hand saws since the 1940's are of decent quality? None of them …? That's a little surprising.

Thanks for an enjoyable and informative thread.


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## summerfi (Oct 12, 2013)

I am both a saw user and a saw collector. Neither is a bad thing, and both should appreciate a good saw.

You have to understand what happened in the 1940s. Prior to that time people in the building industries made their livings primarily with hand tools. There was a high demand for quality tools, and industry catered to that demand. Manufacturing of tools was much less mechanized in those days. Then WWII ended and a building boom began in America. About the same time, use of electrical tools began to replace hand tools, e.g. skil saws replacing hand saws. This did two things. First, it drastically reduced the demand for hand tools. Second, to keep up with the booming demand for just about everything, manufacturers had to figure out ways to produce more for less. What used to be produced by hand labor was then produced by machines. Quality necessarily suffered. This was not only true with hand saws, but tool in general, and indeed with many manufactured products beyond tools. It is not a coincidence that major saw manufacturers like Disston, Atkins, and Simonds were out of business by the 1950s.

In answer to your question, "Seriously, you guys are saying that no hand saws since the 1940's are of decent quality?", the answer is yes and no. In recent years there are small independent saw makers who produce very high quality saws, but most people would consider the cost to be very high. You can go to Lowes and buy a $19.95 short saw with heat hardened teeth that cannot be resharpened, but in my opinion the quality is very low. Or you can take that $19.95 and buy one or possibly more quality vintage saws, restore them, and have a relatively cheap, high quality saw.

An interesting exercise is to go to Google images and search for "Disston saw". It is readily apparent which ones were made prior to WWII and which ones were made after. There is no comparison in the quality and workmanship.


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## Just_Iain (Apr 5, 2017)

> Justin (or is it really Just_tain?)...
> 
> - Holbs


Hi Holbs
It's Iain (Scottish Gaelic version of Ian - The Brits misspell everything)


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## jimintx (Jan 23, 2014)

summerfi bob - thank you for the nice explanatory reply. It had not occurred to me that hand saws had lost their market by 1950.

I'm going to go take a look at the saws I have in the shop. I really cannot recall what I have, which seems slightly embarrassing after reading this thread. I know there are a couple of old panel saws that came from my Dad's family that would need some good rust remove work. 
.


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## summerfi (Oct 12, 2013)

Thanks Jim. After you've looked at your saws, if you're thinking about restoring any of them, come on over to the saw thread where you'll find plenty of helpful advice. It's a special thing to have nice quality functioning tools that have been passed down through the family.


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## Holbs (Nov 4, 2012)

15,020 replies in that saw thread 
Guess I should start reading….
Also, I took a quick google search for a biography for Henry Disston, but could not find one. The history of the man and the industry makes me curious to read up on it more.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

You will find one on Henry @ the Disstonian Institute…...among a lot of other things "Disston".


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## summerfi (Oct 12, 2013)

Here you go Holbs. Old Henry led a rather remarkable life.
http://hus-saws1.wkfinetools.com/Disston/hist-bio-Disston/HDbioSketch1.asp


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