# Probably should not be posting this thread



## fge (Sep 8, 2008)

Let me first say the person who works for us is a great guy in a lot of ways. He has done a lot of good work for us. No person is perfect of course but for the most part he has the potential of doing some really great work when he wants to and when he is focused.

My issue is this. When we get projects completed, we tend to take pics. He takes them with his phone. I always figured he took them to show friends and family what he has built while working with us. After all, we do some amazing work and who would not be proud and want to show off our work. I figured he might even put them on his FB page and brag about what we have built in the past month or so at Top Quality Cabinets.

But no, this is actually what he has done with several of those pics he has taken over time with us. He made his own website http://gotwood.biz/index.html. Look at his site. On his front page he has one pic and a top banner pic, both of projects completed by our shop. His gallery page features 36 pictures, and 30 of them are of work completed by Top Quality Cabinets. The other 6 pictures are of projects he completed while at our shop but on his own on the side for some side cash. And 90% of the wording on his site comes right off of my website www.topqualitycabinets.net. Those words were my own words as I am the author of 75% of what is written on my site.

I think about it and we (my wife and I, my 6 and 8 year old daughters) have had extreme sacrifice over the years to build the company we are proud of today. We are very proud of the work we have successfully completed. Our sacrifices included our small family of 4 being homeless, living the shop, not having hot water, not having a bathtub, missing Christmas altogether 2010 and 2009, late nights of self study, hard lessons learned from the school of hard knocks, many days and weeks running with an empty fridge, etc… It just seems that someone, who has not had to endure the sacrifice it has taken us to get to where we are at today, who steals credit for work we complete is demeaning to us and the great sacrifice we have made.

So I sent him a very tactful email outlining my concerns and wishes. I also CC this email to [email protected] I do hope this works out fine and he can remain working with us as deep down I like the guy. But there is a certain line that cannot be crossed.

Anyone have advice. I know there is a thread about pics being stolen from Lumberjocks.com and folks are mad about that and I can understand that frustration, but I somehow feel my situation is very different.

By the way, this guy does not even own a shop, he wants to build a small shed where he can store some tools, but at this time he has no place to work if not for at our shop.


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## ShaneA (Apr 15, 2011)

Well, I do like the looks of your cabinets. Mighty fine work on them.


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## love2cad (Oct 8, 2012)

Hello Jerry, I too am in San Antonio (Boerne actually) and working hard to build my business. I completely understand you frustrations but I can't understand why someone would pass others work off as their own. It seems like you have handled it the best you can up to this point. I would say stick with it and don't let him take away what you have fought so hard to build!


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## richardwootton (Jan 17, 2013)

I would certainly feel betrayed if this happened to me. It shows a real lack of gratitude on his part.


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## reedwood (Jan 27, 2011)

sounds like you handled it very well.

I gotta tell you…his website really sucked. He really needs a pro to work on the wording. And the pictures were terrible! Frankly, compared to your website, I don't know what you're worried about.

He just wants to be like you. it's almost flattering.


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## 111 (Sep 2, 2013)

Does he have a shop and equipment where he can produce Cabinets?
If not, fire his azz and tell him good luck. 
Also tell him you will sue him if he doesn't remove your property from his site. (don't really know if you can) 
It's obvious that he wants to start his own business. There is no need for you to continue training him when he is just going to leave. Sorry, but it's time to get someone else. Quit wasting your time with him.


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## fge (Sep 8, 2008)

Good points Mark. I agree about the photography quality. His phone camera is not stellar. I guess I just get ticked off thinking about it. I have actually known about this site for the past couple of weeks and have not done or said anything while working with him but I finally decided I was not happy and sent him an email, but it was tactful.


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## wseand (Jan 27, 2010)

I would drop that guy so fast he wouldn't know what happened to him. 
If he is willing to do this who knows what else he a has done.

Wish him the best of luck and send him packing.

It's hard enough without someone taking stabs at you. 
You certainly don't deserve or need this kind of crap from anyone..


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

Yes, you probably shouldn't have, but for a different reason than you may be thinking. He's stealing from you, and you've forewarned him. It'll be tougher to exact legal results, probably. It appears to me that the lack of focus and ambivalent attitude come from his willingness to steal your goodwill and possibly your customers. I think he's there to take advantage of you. You sound like a nice guy. It may take a legal remedy to stop his stealing. Are you prepared to go there? If he worked for me, he'd no longer be working for me. I'd've canned him on the spot when I saw that website (which I haven't visited, btw).


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## fge (Sep 8, 2008)

Kevin, you also make some good points. It gets me upset thinking about all of the time and training I have put into him. He knows all or most all of my sources as far as where we get hardware and such. I have serious doubts that he can ever truly compete with us but I don't want to find out.

It is sort of frustrating when you think about it. We have had quite a number of guys work with us over the past few years, one guy is way out there, another is lazy, another guy lacks focus, another guy is a break fanatic, another guy was likely really good in his younger years and finally we get a guy focused, decent intelligence, good problem solving skills and very capable and he suddenly is looking to open is own business.


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## DaleM (Feb 18, 2009)

I think he crossed the line in using pics of your cabinets to compete for your business and he would be gone. I work at a cabinet shop for someone else and I haven't posted one thing on this site that we have made there. If I did, I would definitely not imply that I was the sole designer and builder. I only post things I make at home.


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## DIYaholic (Jan 28, 2011)

A line has been crossed.
How many more crossed lines are to come?

He's trying to steal your reputation….
Where will he stop?

Once a line has been crossed….
The next line to cross is that much easier!!!

*FIRE HIS SORRY @$$!!!*
That of course is just my opinion….


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Why would we have to tell you this?
1. He is dishonest.
2. Fire him.
You make it seem he is your main employee and your business would fail without him.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

Address it like an adult. Ask the guy if he wants to be out
on his own. Maybe you can work out a deal - if he wants to
work overtime doing his own jobs he is going to need 
a shop to use.

We both know (and many others who do this) that having
machining capacity is a significant thing. I broke my back 
for years using machinery that many hobby woodworkers
would consider better than average. It was not enough.

I got called to fix a 1/6th done cabinet job where the guy
had said he had a shop, then set up a contractor saw
in the client's garage and started working. After the neighbors
made a fuss, the guy disappeared, leaving the tools. 
The client wondered if the guy had got caught on a warrant
but I reckon he crunched the numbers and realized
he'd lowballed the job so bad, he figure he'd split. The
client freaked out when I told him what it would cost
to finish it right, which is why I think the job was severely
underbid in the first place.

If the employee doesn't have a substance abuse problem,
he may be a keeper. Many big shops in my area allow
employees to use the tools after hours on their own
jobs. Needless to say, cabinetmaking only has the potential
to pay well if you're running your own jobs and working
as an employee in most cabinet shops is a ticket to the
lower middle class. It is not an awful job at all, but, well,
you know… it's better to be the boss in the end.


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## 111 (Sep 2, 2013)

Jerry, I know I'm not telling you anything you don't know, but it's always going to be this way with employees. *You can't be their friend, no matter what*. You have to treat them as an employee. Fire them when they mess up, give them raises when they deserve it. But keep in mind it's always going to be a revolving door. 
Being their friend, helping them through tough times, having them over to your house etc etc. just makes it harder to get rid of them when you HAVE to.
I've been through that. 
Young employees: teach them, then they leave to start their own. 
Experienced employees, Pay them a lot of money then they don't work hard. 
I could go on and on.
Employees will always be the hardest part to business.


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## mojapitt (Dec 31, 2011)

I would be very upset. That's very underhanded in my opinion. I hope you can work it out satisfactorily, but it would probably lead to termination for me.


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## bladedust (Mar 12, 2012)

Jerry, I feel for your dilema (been there, done that in 25 years in business), but let me be perfectly clear…he is a THIEF.

He is stealing your property, your reputation, your accumulated knowelege and sooner or later, your customers. The pictures may be on his phone, but they're of your design and hard work. He may have built them, but he built them on your time, therefore they are yours and in no way his.

I wouldn't be surprised if he is talking to your customers behind your back and trying to undercut you. After all, he has no overhead since I'm guessing you're letting him use your shop for free while you pay for insurance and all other associated overhead.

I would 1. fire his sorry ass. 2. Have an attorney draft a letter demanding the site be taken down immidietaly. 3. Notify all my suppliers he is no longer with your company and is not authorized to make purchases in your company name 4. Notify all the other shops in the area of his character.

Firing him now may be a short term hardship, but keeping him will be devastating long term. I may seem harsh, but I speak from (multiple) experience and you must be tough in business or they'l walk all over you. Never, ever keep a bad apple because they will rot the whole barrel!


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## fge (Sep 8, 2008)

Yeah, I have a lot to think about. If I were to let him go we would be just fine. He only works about 35 hours with us per week and we would be able to get by just fine without him if I decided to let him go.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

You might consider something like firing him from the shop 
and employeeing him as a sub to do installs or something
like that. In addition to giving him a taste of reality, it
may allow you to be more productive in the shop.

Realistically a lot of our time is sanding and stuff like
that and you can bring in a lower skilled employee to
do that.

I dislike deliveries and installations myself. Sanding too, 
but that's why I got the stroke sander. When helpers
see the way I move and the way I think in the shop
they are generally impressed. I don't say this to boast,
but to make a point that if you put your energy where
it can have peak yield and hire help for the other stuff,
you can prosper and also not invest too much energy
in being an unintentional cabinetmaking school.


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## fge (Sep 8, 2008)

He is our only guy, but not our main guy. It is a collective effort between my wife, me and him. He will do about 30-35 hours per week and my wife and I run around 50-60 hours per week. If I decided to let him go we would manage fine.

In fact, in the recent past we have moved to outsourcing our doors, this means I build the cabinets and face frames, my wife builds our drawers and does the bulk of the finish work and I install myself and know enough tradesman in the area to be able to get a helper for a day or two for monthly installs. So I have often thought about going at this on our own.


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## fge (Sep 8, 2008)

I just checked his site and he has removed everything except for the 4 photographs of work he completed on his own. He even removed all of the wording.


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

Did you get screenshots?  Then again, maybe he's been properly spanked, if he really needs a job. But I can tell you, I work for a large corporation, and I have to surrender all intellectual property right to them. don't get me wrong, if I didn't have the job I do, I wouldn't be doing the work that required patent protection. Kind of a double-edged sword.


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## casual1carpenter (Aug 16, 2011)

Jerry, do you think he will show up for work on Monday? I would have his last check cut and waiting on the Monday mail pickup, at this point he is likely a liability and not an asset to you and your business.


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## fge (Sep 8, 2008)

Yeah, he will be there Monday. A lot on my mind right now.


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## woodbutcherbynight (Oct 21, 2011)

A mans character is judged by what he does when he thinks no one else is looking. If his actions in taking your work as if it were is own are acceptable to this person he has a moral compass that is broken. At this moment in time you now know he has stolen credit for work, and is trying to undercut your customer base. You mentioned he has no tools, are you sure this will continue? He now knows that you have discovered his poor decision to steal your work and credit and perhaps customers, and it took you some time to find out. If you allow him to stay he will be more creative in his next move and who knows what that will cost you. You wrote you have endured great hardships in getting to where you are today, his exit would be a small sacrifice compared to losing your customers or hard earned reputation.

I have made such decisions in my life, sometimes it meant life and death, other times merely discomfort for a time. In each instance it tore me up to have to relieve someone but at the end of the day it had to be done.

Just my 2 cents worth anyway.


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## BentheViking (May 19, 2011)

If he doesn't have an ability to produce outside your shop, how is he going to make what his website supposedly sells? surely he can't be ballsy enough to use your shop to try and do his own sidework without your permission


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## KayBee (Jul 6, 2009)

I'll second all the others who said cut him loose. Do you really feel good about financing your competition? That's what he is, even if you keep him. Competition happy to let you support his business start up until there's a backlog he can walk into and walk out with no notice to you.

He's already shown he's going for jobs in the same market. He didn't even have the decency to let you know he was interested in 'side jobs' for himself. Don't throw away all of the sacrifices that you and your family made because he wants an easier start. Monday give him his check and check his tool box on the way out.


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## BurtC (Oct 30, 2009)

Looks like a "conflict of interest" case to me. Terminate him due to dis-trust and overall business ethics issues. He has given you no other choice. Your business relationship has been permanently damaged and avoid bringing personal feelings into this. A simple business decision has to be made and he brought it upon himself. Consult an attorney as to proceed with termination. I'm sure that documenting all of his web pages BEFORE you demand his website removed, is a must. He is essentially stealing from the person that is giving him a paycheck. Not a pleasant thing to go thru, but you must protect yourself.


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## CoachSchroeder (Jan 3, 2014)

You may want to consider an intellectual property agreement and/or a non-compete agreement going forward.

I'm not a professional woodworker but in a previous life I worked in a metal fabrication shop and had to submit to 2 such agreements as terms of employment. It will protect your designs as well as prevent you from becoming a training center for competitors.


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## RogerInColorado (Jan 18, 2013)

Listen to CoachSchroeder. ANYbody you hire should sign an intellectual property agreement. Your designs and your work methods have value. Take your own photos of every piece before you deliver it and copyright the photo. Make sure every employee you ever have knows you are doing this and why. Attach some of your copyrighted photos to the intellectual property agreement so there is no doubt about what you consider theft. Don't let employees use your shop for their own stuff without a separate agreement to protect you from liability. Your insurance may not cover employees using your machines on their own time.

There is another thread running on the forum about this kind of theft. It's at http://lumberjocks.com/topics/57729


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

Jerry, your problem is similar to the one in this forum except this is and outside company copying photographs.
This forum was started by Darrell Peart in Seattle.


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## lepelerin (Jan 13, 2012)

I can understand your frustration.
Give him a choice:
Either you fired him (which I would do) or ask him to put a big sign on his website and FB and wherever he advertised "his work" that the work he displayed is NOT his work but work from topqualitycabinets.
Let him choose!


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## TravisH (Feb 6, 2013)

To be honest any one you hire (with any skill and motivation) is your future competition. They get to learn from your mistakes, learn the business, learn the connections, suppliers, pricing, etc.. all on your dime. There comes a point that they can make more going out on their own. Just part of doing business.

I would just let him go and politely ask again for him to take down the offending images. At that point you should have zero dealings with him. Get a lawyer to deal with it if an issue. The time, money, and more importantly allowing it to alter your daily life, conversations, usually end up being too costly (and not money related) in the long run. This sort of stuff can get dragged out over a long time and often ends up being a pyric victory.


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## daddywoofdawg (Feb 1, 2014)

I had a employee once that started talking to my customers that would contact me about a bid,he would tell them my product was so so BUT he could do the job for half the price and better.then he would use MY equipment to service the client!someone told me about it Because they liked the service I gave.
DO NOT let him get near your customers.
And I would ask did he build the stuff or just do a part of the build?If he build everyone of the pieces on his site,then maybe he can say he did;but if he just helped then he's lieing to his possible customers.


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## LeTurbo (Jan 22, 2014)

For me, the cruncher is the "Pricing Information" tab on his website. He's going to leave you sooner or later anyway. Right now, the situation is cushy for him, but it's not for you. I sense the hurt in your post, and I don't believe you'll be able to work with him on the same basis as you have in the past. That'll damage your business. I think you need to sit him down, say you wish him luck, that he should go out and do his thing. Be careful he doesn't try to steal some of your clients - unfortunately, based on his website, I think he's capable of trying. As intelligent, hardworking, etc as he is, he's also devious. That is never good.


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## mojapitt (Dec 31, 2011)

I have never had any employees and I really don't want any. At this point all I can imagine is conflict with minimal gain. I have not worked up to the level that you are at, but I would like to. But this is the kind of thing that bothers me about the thought. I am a person who has to trust the people I am with. Once that trust is broken, I don't think I could allow them in again.


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## BoardSMITH (Mar 15, 2012)

I have been there with an employee. I believe he stole two produced items along with the paperwork then never came back. If I could have proved it I would have had him arrested and charged with theft.

Simply put, he stole from you and has tried to take food out of the mouths of your children, wife and you and has attempted to reach into your back pocket and take out the money you have worked and sacrificed for. In short, he needs to be terminated immediately before he can steal anything else from you or do any more damage. I would hire an attorney to at least write a letter threatening legal action unless he removes the photos he posted of your completed goods and if he doesn't remove them a legal suit is in order. If it goes to court, his costs for defending will be much greater than your costs to start the suit. A consultation with an attorney is in order.

And he wants to use your equipment to make his own competing goods? I wonder if he has contacted your past customers? The man is a slime bucket and needs to hit the road.


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## dusty2 (Jan 4, 2009)

Maybe I don't know the entire story but I am not sure that I agree with many of the comments here.

You were aware that he was taking the pictures. He was not sneaky about taking them. He did work with you on these projects. I assume he is a helper in the shop if not one of the craftsmen. He did have a hand in the finished projects that he posted.

What is he guilty of. Being proud of the work that he contributed to and yes - not giving full credit to your operation.


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## LakeLover (Feb 2, 2013)

My brother in law used to use my shop, when he got jammed up he would ask me to help him out. I did for a while, then I asked for money to cover supplies. Well he got all bent out of shape. SO I said NO.

He has went on to slime anybody he can. Yes the world does owe him a living.

I have had to sign over copyright agreements and non compete agreements as an employee and even sub. That is part of business these days.

Make sure all your suppliers know about him no longer being part of your business. One thing these type don't realize, not everyone can just run in and buy at your prices. It is a business relationship built on trust ( Both ways).

As per pics on a job site. I always ask the client if I can take pics. 99% of the time it is not a problem. Some people just don't want the WWW to know more about them and I respect that.

If he has keys to your shop change the locks.

This is one reason I like to work alone. I have a few friends I can ask when I need a hand. We all understand who is who on the pecking order. I treat them well and they treat me and my clients well.

Good luck and let us know how it turns out.


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## reedwood (Jan 27, 2011)

I'm with you Dusty.

Good cabinet makers and carpenters don't grow on trees. We are a special fussy breed.

Everyone of us is a walking independent entity. We are not check numbered, white collar pencil pushers content on the 9 to 5 work schedule. We don't like to be told what to do beyond the assignment. We all want to be self employed, We think we are invincible and our work is above average.

Our fiercely independent skill set is built around an elevated sense of pride and a slightly narcissistic need to be recognized. And our free time is ours to be used to build more and make more money.

When I was his age - how old is this guy? 28 - 30? - I gave my wife my 40 hr. "paycheck" Anything over that was play money for tools and toys. I worked just about every Saturday and many evenings until 7 or 8.

To be honest, it wasn't for the money, never has been. It was just an internal drive to build stuff. I always had work and it was hard to walk away from it.

Even though I'd worked for several different companies over the years, I always maintained my own business on the side…..most of us have. Nothing wrong with that. I don't steal their clients, they have plenty. I provided a sub contractor service which can be a real asset for them. It's a win win situation. No conspiracy a foot.

I'll tell you one more thing - forget about Lawyers and legal letters. Nothing but heartache and a waste of money.
You never win and you never get complete satisfaction. Better to handle it yourself and get back to work.

Don't fire him. Talk to him face to face. You and your wife can't make up the 35 hours and you shouldn't be doing all that grunt work yourself. I liked the sub contractor suggestion above. That may be the solution. at least that way you can use him when needed and he will find out how hard it really is to run a business and maybe appreciate his job more.

Part of doing business…. indeed.


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

That's part of the learning curve for both parties.

Honestly, Dusty & Mark have the most sage advice.


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## tncraftsman (Oct 21, 2009)

I've been through a similar situation.

Regarding the content on his site. You can file a DCMA complaint with his web host. They will either require him to take down all copyrighted work or shut his site down.

I'd be wary of getting lawyers involved. Using lawyers can get expensive fast. Unless you are prepared to shell out a few thousand for one to look into this then I'd hold back. I spent a grand just to have one letter sent regarding a copyright issue with my work. Although, it did fix the issue.

If you are going to let him go document the process. A disgruntled ex-employee could do harm to your business e.g. report you to OSHA, file an EEOC claim against you, call the fire marshal etc. Sure the claims will be bogus but you will be out time and money fighting it.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

I'm also with Dusty. I've got plenty of projects on my resume I didn't complete alone. When you post the photo's do you mention the part he had? That might be a stretch but think about it.

If you've got somebody you classify as a good employee, you better do whatever you can to keep him. Think of what it will cost you to replace him. Think about what he will cost you if he's a direct competitor.

Now, given all the information I don't know if firing him wouldn't be appropriate, but with the info I have, I would say no.

You got a choice, he can be your competition and help you make money, or he can be your competition and not help you make money. Only you can decide that.

It's the old adage, keep your friends close and your enemy's closer.


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## HowardInToronto (Sep 27, 2013)

Maybe it was just plain ignorance on his part. But it sure doesn't sound like it. It looks like he gave this a lot of thought. He STOLE your website's copy. And used your photos to suggest those were his projects.

Even after your e-mail, he might've simply moved everything elsewhere to another website.

If you don't have screenshots of his website, it'll be your word against his if push comes to shove later on.

So I'd recommend these three things -
1 - ask him to reply to your e-mail with something like the following, "I've taken so-and-so website down. I've removed your website copy. I removed the pics of jobs I didn't contribute to. I will not use that website copy or any of those pics on any other websites." 
2 - as soon as you get that reply, contact a lawyer
his fee is an investment - not an expense
discuss 2 things -
- his theft of your intellectual property
- the proper way to fire him without you suffering any employment legal exposure
3 - keep an eye on him and be ready to fire him inside Federal laws and the laws of your state so he has no leg to stand on

Anybody can make a mistake. Now you know what he's capable of. So now you're warned.

Howard


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## MarioF (Feb 6, 2009)

Jerry, I think you already answered the question, if his 35 hours a week don´t make much of a difference for you, he is taking advantage of your business and knowledge and now he knows it, you just don´t want a sour grape on your tab, not for part time, installation or anything else, he has become a liability issue for you, shopwork is quite demanding, you don´t need to put up with that. Saw your work in Corpus, really nice!


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## dhazelton (Feb 11, 2012)

Fired. Done. Gone. You don't need the aggravation. Maybe someone needs to send him the link to this thread.

When I worked in a creative field you had to sign a piece of paper that said every idea and piece of art you created belonged to the agency in perpetuity. While you probably don't have a written contract like that you would assume that your people wouldn't take work done on your dime and your premises and your equipment and pass it off as their own. Again, you need to confront him. If he gets it and takes down his site fine. If not, again cut him loose.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

In his mind it seems he has the idea he will have his own shop one day. I would make that day tomorrow.


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## TravisH (Feb 6, 2013)

If you can get buy just fine with out him (and not just a response to being screwed over by him) why is he an employee? Very early principal in economics and business classes. One reason so many have a hard time being successful is they thrive on making poor business decisions.


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## AlanBienlein (Jan 29, 2011)

Jerry,

I work for a cabinet shop in the Houston area. I also do work on the side. This side work came about for me because there was a time period that the shop I was working for had virtually no work going on. I did what I had to do to survive but made sure it wasn't the same work they did. 99% of their work is kitchens and baths.

This owner will let employees do work for themselves after hours or side work but he tells them he needs to be compensated for the electricity use and wear on the tools. He will also sell them the materials they need.

I myself have my own shop setup with all the tools needed to build furniture and cabinets but I also do other types of work out of that same shop and it's not just limited to wood working. This owner has even offered me work from people who have came in but he doesn't want to do it because it differs from what he normally does. All he asks for is a small cut of the profit. I turn him down on those as I want to keep what I do on the side separate from him and I won't even buy materials from him for my side work.

I myself don't foresee myself ever stopping myself from doing work on the side as I consider that a small safety net in case something happens with my main source of income but on the same note I have no intention of starting up my own business per say.

About taking pictures I do do that but it and is only to show my wife and close personal friends what I do at work. I have posted one picture on a wood working forum but that was to answer a question about a material someone wanted to use and I said this is what we did at my job. I have a large enough portfolio of my own that I've built myself on my own that reflects the type of work I prefer to do on the side.


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## Pono (Mar 10, 2012)

Fire him i have been there no $ to feed the family and every cent counts he obviously doesnt mind stealing from you


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## mprzybylski (Nov 21, 2011)

I have to respectfully disagree on what has been said so far. Let me explain.

I am a web developer by trade and I have over the years been fortunate enough to work for a lot of Fortune 500 clients through some of the best advertising agencies in the world. I have a portfolio online that shows some of that work and in some cases I was not the only one working on those projects. If I was not able to show off the work I did while employed by these companies I would have no portfolio to speak of and would have a really hard time getting more work, even if the company and I agreed to part ways amicably at one point or another. In my industry, much like woodworking, if you can't show your past successes then you're going to find it very hard to to keep moving.

Point being, unless you had an agreement in place beforehand that protected you in such an event he is absolutely entitled to use a lot of those images since it sounds like he was a big part of completing the work. I understand your hardships to arrive to where you are today but the man also has to feed himself and quite possibly his family so I'd suggest discussing it like adults and don't get out of hand. If you can come to some kind of agreement that's the best outcome for both parties.


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## casual1carpenter (Aug 16, 2011)

Matt, If I supplied a truly significant portion of the design and execution then I might have a leg to stand on following you logic. The web page in question was scrubbed before I checked it out so I am only making an assumption that he did not say the the photos depicted projects in which he played a part. Where I come from this is a lie by omission. Yes he worked on side jobs, off the clock using Jerry's equipment and with Jerry's consent and knowledge. In reading Jerry's posts over time I really feel that he would have gladly helped the guy develop and grow with friendship.
Now he is a disgruntled employee because his rather shady behavior was uncovered. I question if he will still be the model employee that he was in the past. I would question if my behavior as the boss and owner would not suffer as a result of his breach of trust. It might just be my Philadelphia region 'Rocky' attitude but I would have to tell him that he obviously wants to be in his own business and I'll help him out with that by freeing up his time, here is the check it's layoff time.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

ick.

I remember Jerry posting at one point that his employee was
making more per shop hour than he himself was. This is
not an uncommon scenario for a small business bootstrapping
its way to more capacity and more profitable jobs.

Many people who have not dealt with the headaches of
entrepreneurship look at the shops and equipment the
business owner has and think the business owner is
raking in cash with all that awesome stuff. It's not like
that at all, but for many people the only way to understand
that is to go out and hustle on their own.


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## Pono (Mar 10, 2012)

loren your right people see equipment and a good set up and think your loaded.but they have no clue what goes on behind the scenes.


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## mtenterprises (Jan 10, 2011)

Very simple, pack your tools. The foreman will check that they are all yours, don't come back. Oh yes and by the way pull down your site or I'll sue you. You need not be tactful it is theft pure and simple. You put in years building your business not his. 
MIKE


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## Pono (Mar 10, 2012)

yeah mike your right unless he came to you from the start and was up front with you anything else is considered dishonest and will only get worse.


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## fge (Sep 8, 2008)

I have been keeping up with reading all the replies. A ton of great advice is given. I think I need to take some time and re read the whole thread. It is true that outward looks can be deceiving and even while we are set up fairly nice for a small shop, we are probably a long way off from being considered anywhere close to wealthy.

I will tell you, one way to find out your exact weakness is by going into business for yourself. Since a business owner is responsible for every aspect of the business, that person will soon find out what they either like, dislike, or excel at or just plain stink at. So let me put it this way, I have found I hate bookkeeping. However a paid bookkeeper is a simple solution to a glaring weakness. And a bookkeeper only requires a couple hours per week to keep a small business like us up to date and looking good so the added cost for a paid bookkeeper is small. And, I am not a fan of confrontation. I have handled confrontation when it has to happen, but I much prefer not to have confrontation if at all possible. With relation to the customer, I typically do whatever is within reason and my power to ensure they are happy with our product, this drastically reduces confrontation. The confrontation with guys who worked for us both past and present have been my glaring weakness. I am also very much at fault for being too much of a friend to those who have worked with us and I can see plainly how that affects the business relationship.

In the past, when a guy working with us did not work out, we would simply let him go after that job was completed. Basically it was a situation where we had no work. Every year we become more steady with work and at this time we have not been without work for more than a year or so. We are typically overlapping jobs so there really is not that break where I can truly tell a guy, 'well, we ran out of work'.


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## SCOTSMAN (Aug 1, 2008)

I find it difficult to see a future with this guy,but it would be very interesting to hear what he has to say for himself.However if you hear nothing back from him, write and tell him about your concerns politely but firmly and also obviously tell him since he has not responded to your previous correspondence, and for his misconduct you therefore have no alternative ( in the interest of protecting your business) but to let him go. Then carry on as you did before you met him. It might be prudent if it comes to this to let him know if he continues to plagiarise your designs etc you will have no alternative to take legal action.Alistair


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## fge (Sep 8, 2008)

To the issue of why he works with us still. He has worked with us now going on a year and a half. But we just began outsourcing our doors the last 5 or so projects. We can still build doors and do when it makes sense, but the majority of our doors come from a large door shop in Austin.

I am mostly thinking out loud here (feel free to skim or skip altogether the following):

So given this information the dynamics have changed for us. I am very good at building face frames and cabinets and do so quickly and very accurately with great attention to detail. You would be surprised at how quickly I can build out cabinets. And I am very detailed and accurate at it. I basically time myself and can build out 20 face frames in one day, and with a basic cabinet I can build out 14 in a day. With specialty cabinets it takes me anywhere from 2 to 4 hours to build out a specialty cabinet (such as if a customer wants a shoe rack with 27 cubicles for shoes, or a cabinet featuring various angles). And when I say build out of cabinet, I am including line boring for shelves and cutting out the shelves. So the cabinet is completely ready, only missing the doors, any applicable end panels, drawer, drawer face and solid wood edge trim for the shelf.

My wife can build an entire kitchen's worth of drawers / pull outs in one day from cut out to glue / staple (rabbet joinery). If it is dovetail she can complete the drawers for an entire kitchen in 1 to 2 days. She pretty much handles 90% of all finishing tasks and has gotten extremely good at what she does and she is very efficient. Between her and I, we can sand, condition, stain and lacquer all face frames in 1-2 days depending on size of job. Our face frames are finished out first, then I build the cabinets around the FF.

I hold off on building cabinets because they build out so fast and are just in the way. I typically build out cabinets 3-4 days before scheduled installation. We use UV / Pre finished plywood and so no finish work is required on the inside of the cabinet.

Doors arrive already sanded to 220 from door shop and ready for finish out (end panels are highest priority and are completed 1 day after they are delivered so they can install on cabinet), most door finishing done by my wife. I deliver and install and trim out the entire kitchen with out doors while my wife finishes the doors. The delivery and installation and trim out is where I need the most help. My wife and I deliver doors and install doors, install TK skins, finish up any trim work, etc…

So with all this in mind, I have been sort of leaning towards going at this with just my wife and I in the upcoming future. Our current shop in town is a 30 minute drive one way. When we move into our new shop, likely before April, we can walk to work in 2 minutes. Our new shop has 2 times the space as our current shop which I think will help a lot.

Another thing I am considering about this whole thing. The guy who works with us is a very good welder, at least with stick welding. I bought all of the welding equipment to build our shop and since he is really good with a welder, he welded up the entire shop. So sort of thinking about this, it will look like I used him to weld our shop and then let him go. I have been learning the skill of stick welding and can do some welding myself now, but he is very experience and lays nice welds. Of course we are all done with welding now.


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## 111 (Sep 2, 2013)

Doesn't matter what it looks like, business is business. Whatever decision you make, it has to be what you think is best for your business. Feelings can't be part of it.

Like you, I always had a big heart and tried to help all of my employees out whenever I could. Nothing a matter with that, it's just 100 times harder when you know you have to let them go.

I learned to keep employees strictly business. Think of it like this. When you had a job before starting your own, did you go visit with the owner of the business? Most likely not. 
Friends and business is as hard as family and business, sometimes worst.


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## casual1carpenter (Aug 16, 2011)

Jerry, years ago I worked in Texas for a bit where I learned a saying. I was looking for a job when I found this one, I'll be looking for a job when I'm gone. That was in the offshore oil boom period so today employment being what it is, the inverse would be true. You paid the agreed rate of pay and perhaps benefits as compensation for his time and efforts. 
As others said, you will only feel right about this situation by doing what you feel is best for you and your business. You might consider telling him that he is not doing side work out of your shop in the immediate future.


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## mojapitt (Dec 31, 2011)

Loren's point is exactly why at this time I wouldn't have employees. The hassle would far out weigh the profit. So many of the young generation now doesn't want to get dirty. Finding GOOD help is nearly impossible.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

It's not a very honest way of doing things. I don't see how you can work him any longer.

helluvawreck aka Charles
http://woodworkingexpo.wordpress.com


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## Tedstor (Mar 12, 2011)

So sort of thinking about this, it will look like I used him to weld our shop and then let him go.

Meh- If you paid for his welding services…...then you owe him nothing. I wouldn't let that be the determining factor. But it does sound like this guy is a very skilled man and probably a good bloke to have on speed dial. 
None the less- This dude will leave your company iin a hot second. The instant he can start his own company, he will. The instant another company offers him an extra dollar an hour, he'll leave. I'd keep him on board for another few weeks. Then tell him that you've decided to streamline your operation…..and that he doesn't fit into the grand scheme. Try not to burn a bridge though. He might prove to be a source for referrals.


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## ssnvet (Jan 10, 2012)

My advice….

Fire him and have a lawyer send him a cease and desist letter to take down images of your shops work and any material plagiarized from your web site.

Make sure your suppliers know that he is not working with you any more and that he was let go for dishonesty and plagiarizing your web site. Let him find out how hard it is to find vendors who will give payment terms when your reputation is "dirt bag". Just be careful to not say anything that isn't true and easily backed up with facts.

He's riding on your coat tails to build his own business on your dime. Let him figure out the meaning of the word "overhead".

The sad part is that he'll claim unemployment on your dime and then work for cash under the table and try to take your customers away from you.

Then replace him with a guy that signs a non-compete agreement, or keep it a family affair and put the workers comp $ back in your pocket.


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## Puzzleman (May 4, 2010)

Jerry, I have 10 employees now and go up to 15 when busy. I understand about not liking confrontation. I have been there myself.

When I am feeling insecure inside and don't want to face up to a problem, I think of a couple of things. 
1. By not saying something and getting rid of the person, I am hurting myself financially and my reputation is going to be hurt. My reputation is both ways: With customers and with vendors. 
2. Donald Trump said it: It's not personal, it's business. Business is what made you decide to hire someone and will be what makes you decide to let someone go.


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## AlanBienlein (Jan 29, 2011)

Somebody ever asks me to sign a non compete agreement better be paying me pretty dam good and include some very good benefits to get my signature on that paper!

I work in a cabinet shop but I also do work on the side but not what his bread and butter is. I prefer to do one offs. I'll never be put in the position again of not having something to fall back on.


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## fge (Sep 8, 2008)

I do appreciate all of the comments. I am going to take a little time to make a decision. The guy is very skilled which helps his cause. He is a focused worker in that he mainly just works and is productive when on the clock. He has a lot going for himself. It helped that he did remove his web site immediately after I brought it to his attention in my email Saturday night. He even sent me an apology text message and advised the site information was removed. As for a long term future, I don't see that with this guy. In fact I more see him getting work on his own in the upcoming future and attempting to go at it on his own.

Today we all worked rather well together and so hopefully we can work through this.

If anything changes I will try and update for those interested.

Thanks a ton to everyone. LJ community has always been a place I can look to for support or encouragement from like minded woodworkers cabinet makers.


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

He stole from you once. You busted his chops. He'll do it again, in a way that he thinks he won't be caught. Look into subs, as has been mentioned, to do some of the work. But be sure to vet them, too. You are a business, "nice" is a four-letter word, when it comes to stealing. Let him be your competition! It may take awhile, but eventually people will realize that he isn't honest.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

This discussion reminds me of what another contractor asked me one day, "Don't you wish you could hire help that worked like you do?" I replied, "They all want me to work for them."

If you want good help, you have to pay them well and have a full time job for them. Most of the good help is capable of becoming the competition if they really want to.


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## woodbutcherbynight (Oct 21, 2011)

*+1 TopamaxSurvivor* If you want good help, you have to pay them well and have a full time job for them. Most of the good help is capable of becoming the competition if they really want to.

My former employer informed me I would get up at 5 am and come to a rah rah meeting AND work until whenever the manager decided the day should end, this did not mean at 5pm as posted on the door usually more like 9pm. That pushed me one step to far and I took a job at a private shop, more money, same benefits and no more corporate rah rah meetings and such. That loss cost them a master tech that could fix computer issues, wiring issues and generally get you out of trouble because someone else made a nightmare. Now they send those to us, we fix them and send them the bill. (Laughing)


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## squaretree (Feb 5, 2014)

I agree with KevinJeffery, and can tell you from my own experience (business owner, but not a woodworking business) that employees are the biggest headache to owning a business. Treat them as good as you possibly can, but know where to draw the line. I would definietely DISAGREE with the idea of allowing employees to use your equipment for their own projects. All you will be doing is bankrolling their startup which soon becomes your competition. Hope you find peace with whatever decision you make.


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## fge (Sep 8, 2008)

Just as an update to this thread. We did eventually get rid if the guy. Regretfully I delayed in doing so. Looking back I wished I had let the guy go right away. So now it is just my wife and I.

It has been very tough lately because we have had to devote a lot if time into moving into our new shop. I had to hire a small crew of fellas for a couple days to move out. I had let our guy go before we had moved out.

Our 40 by 80 shop is great but it has been exhausting running our jobs while setting up machines between my wife and I and my parents. To be clear, it is not totally just me and my wife because my mom and dad live on our land from Jan to April every year. They are leaving in less than 2 weeks then it really will be just Justine and I. My mom and dad both have extensive construction backgrounds so they are great help to us. Mom is 60 and dasd is 67 so they are not quite youthful anymore. I say this all just to give appropriate credit as my parents have done a ton for us. Could not have built this shop without them.

So I hope to go at it with just my wife for as long as we can. We will just see how it goes.


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## huff (May 28, 2009)

Jerry,
Glad to hear you got rid of the guy. Best of luck to you and your wife. I know things are going to work out because of all the support you have. Thanks for the update.


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## fge (Sep 8, 2008)

Thanks John. You have been a long time friend on here. This site has been good to me with the friendships I have managed to make.

As a side note, the guy opened his own shop. He bought a small shed where he is keeping his tools and builds right out in the open in his yard. Not the best situation. He is not really competition for us, he tends to lack attention to detail in areas.


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## KayBee (Jul 6, 2009)

Also glad to hear you got rid of the guy. Building cabinets in his back yard? Really? He's really counting on no rain, tornadoes, dogs/cats, neighbors or bugs messing up any his work. You're right, not real competition for you.

Enjoy your new shop, you've earned it.


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## Puzzleman (May 4, 2010)

Jerry, sounds like you might need a little help to keep things going smooth. I would suggest talking up your needs to everyone that you meet and let them know your qualifications and what exactly you are looking for. I have found people through my church, my neighbors churches, Good Will, AARP, listening at meetings and parties where someone says they are bored with retirement, someone mentions that they stay home while the kids are in school and other organizations that specialize in getting jobs for the disabled.

I have built my business by hiring people part time to start when I was not very busy. The people that I targeted were: Retirees, Stay at Home Parents, Disabled People. I looked for people that had the right attitude, not skill set. I can teach skills, but they have to the right attitude. When they applied, I told them straight up that this was only part time, 4 hours/day, 3 - 4 days/week, no benefits and I don't pay much. I wound up with people that are looking for a way to make a little extra money without going to Walmart or McDonalds. I had 3-4 people on the payroll but they only amounted to 1 or 1-1/2 people per week. I also had the luxury of only working people when I had work for them. This worked well with my labor budget.

Now that my business has grown, I still look for the same groups of people. In fact, I have created a reputation of hiring certain groups of people that has resulted in people coming to me looking for a job instead of me looking for them. I now have 10 people working and looking to bring on another.


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## MJCD (Nov 28, 2011)

Jerry:

You are a true professional, and not just a professional woodworker…

I can see that at every turn, you have tried to understand and be fair with this individual - an individual who clearly was dishonest with you. I wish the world had more people like you, and your family - Lord knows we need them.

For my two cents, while I agree - in part - with Dusty2; walk away from this situation - chalk it up to the valleys which life presents us so that the hills - the high points - are that much sweeter; and, continue doing what you have done for years - professional work, professional ethics. This individual will achieve what he has earned - very little.

MJCD


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## fge (Sep 8, 2008)

Thanks for the comments fellow LJ friends. I will respond more later this evening. I need to get back into the shop. I just sat down to the computer actually to do a quick drawing. A great benefit to having our shop on our land. Our last shop was too small to have an office, and my home office was too far away from the shop to just run home and spit out a quick drawing. So I have 3 triangle cabinets I need to build this afternoon and decided to run inside and draw the triangle cabinets in sketchup.

Thanks for all of the great encouragement from everyone. We have learned some very valuable lessons.


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