# Sargent 409 Plane. Help me identify Type



## RoaringShepherd (Dec 5, 2013)

I have a question about my Sargent 409 Plane. I am having difficulty determining the type. The logo looks most like the ones seen on the Type 4. However, the logo is on the plane iron, not the lever cap. The lever cap is blank. The screws are somewhat rounded, though not perfectly round. Any thoughts?

I'm new to plane collecting, so I've got a lot to learn.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

check out this http://lumberjocks.com/topics/47190

What does the lateral adjuster look like.


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## Paul (Mar 13, 2007)

Lots of good information in the above post and link. I was unaware of a type study of Sargent Planes, although I'm thinking there's some published information in the Midwest Tool Collectors Association Magazine back issues. It would take me a while to relocate it though. I don't think my MWTCA has indexed all the articles from their magazines.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Daniel,
Looks like a good user, And IMO I still think Sargent planes are an over-looked premium hand plane, particularly around the turn of the century. Hang in there and keep looking at and studying Sargent planes… *;-)*


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## RoaringShepherd (Dec 5, 2013)

Thanks! This is very helpful, you guys. I bought the plane for a dollar at a flea market just to clean up. The varnish on the wood was cracked and looked pretty bad and everything else was gummed up. It was fun to clean up, and I had planned for it to be something just to use. I was pleasantly surprised at the quality of the tool the more I cleaned it up. I look forward to using it. Thanks!


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## RoaringShepherd (Dec 5, 2013)

By the way, Don. Here is a picture of the lateral adjuster:









I still haven't identified my exact plane yet, though. Comparing it to the 418 and some others, it seems like a mid-century version, but I can't get an exact pinpoint. It doesn't matter too much. It would just be fun to know exactly what type.

I'll keep looking. Paul, I"ll see if I can get a hold of some MWTCA magazines to identify it.

Mike, I'm with you. I'm really looking forward to using this plane. I'm going to finish some cleanup and find an excuse to use it tomorrow if I can.

You guys are very kind to help point me in the right direction. Thanks!


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

I would guess you have a late type 4. The lat adjuster is type 4 or later. The iron is a type 4, but the base may be a type 5, so it could be a very early type 5. Keep in mind there is even more overlap the Sargent types then Stanleys, and that's saying a lot.

Edit: Mike's next comment on the cutter is correct. I was looking at the wrong page in the guide. Why they put different logo's on the cutter than the cap is a mystery to me too.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Daniel,
Here is what I observe about your HP:

 The knob is tall which was produced AFTER the VBM period or 1919-
 The flat face of the frog indicates that it was produced starting in 1910 and beyond. 
 The chipper has an "oval" hole that is indicative to Sargent (NOT like Stanley's chipper)
 Your blade/cutter indicates that it is post-WWII, a Type5 (1942-1950), 
 The ribs on the back of the lever cap match that 1942-1950 time frame
 The adjusting nut on the frog is all steel, with a very thin plating of brass = same time frame

SO, bottom line assessment is that you have a 1942-1950 Sargent #409 with accurate parts throughout.
*8^)*


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## RoaringShepherd (Dec 5, 2013)

Horizontal Mike,

Thanks so much! This is very helpful! It is really great to know what I've got. Somehow, it makes it feel a little more special. I really appreciate it!

Daniel


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## alohafromberkeley (Oct 26, 2011)

Mike or Don, I have a 408 VBM with a tall knob and a 408c with a short one.They both appear original and match the totes. I am getting so confused. Were tall knobs only after 1919? Did Sargent have more overlaps in parts? My VBM lever caps both have ribs,with VBM on cutters. My frog is not horseshoe and does not have the lines on it - it's just plain . The frog bed has squared posts for the frog screws. Is this typical or atypical? Do I have a 408 mutt on my hands? Thanks you and Don really seem to know more about this stuff than the Sargent type study site!


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

Sargent had a lot of overlap. Have you read Mike's thread http://lumberjocks.com/topics/47190


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## alohafromberkeley (Oct 26, 2011)

Don, actually I have read it I think that's where I got hooked on Sargent. I'll take another look. Thanks


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

*"... I have a 408 VBM with a tall knob and a 408c with a short one.They both appear original and match the totes. I am getting so confused. Were tall knobs only after 1919? ..."*

Everything that I have come across, at least what appears to be original, would indicate that the shorter knob existed through the end of the VBM era, 1918. I have 407, 408, 409 VBMs and they all have/had low knobs. I have a pre-WWII Type4 1919-1942 #407 and it has the tall knob.

All that being said, totes and knobs are/have been swapped out all of the time. Just speaking for me alone, I am going forward that indeed OEM short knobs ended in 1918, with the VBMs. I suspect much of may have been a stylized change with Sargent's "new" post VBM marketing (remember George Sargent died in 1917 and WWI was putting increased demand/pressure for the tools). Some overlap always occurs during model changes as old parts are used up.
Just my 2-cents…


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

I can't find any reference to the switch from low to high knob. We may need to start putting together some time frames.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Just curious @alohafromberkeley, tell us more about your 408C. Also go back and look at my post #40 in THIS thread for comparison . This is an early 5408 (predecessor of the 408C) and they do show up once in a while. Hmm…


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Hey Don, I guess we could always do a voyeuristic study of the Sargent planes on eBay to get a better feel for knob height in what model year. That would be cheaper than buying all of them for sure *;-)*


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

That would be cheaper than buying all of them for sure ;-)

Yea, but not nearly as much fun.

I *THINK* I just bought a 5408.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

*alohafromberkeley* Here is another 540x series thread


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Great Don! Did you find it local?


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

Ebay


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Wow! Very cool! Interesting to note-It has the second later with a twist and the adjusting nut is brass with a steel insert, the very same as mine. This kind of changes my mind about the second lateral being an anomaly on the #5400s series, at least with the 5408 that is.

Did you notice the Type2 #407 posted on eBay? That thing is going to go way too rich for my blood, though it would be nice to have. Current prices are no clue for the blood bath at the end of bidding… *;-)*


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

Mike, what's up with that lat adjuster?


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## alohafromberkeley (Oct 26, 2011)

Mike, my 408c is a VBM, sorry about leaving that out. I hope it didn't cause too much excitement. The 408c has only an 8 stamped in the middle of the lever cap rib, while my 408 vbm has 408 in the left side of lever cap. Both planes are marked 408 behind frog.Cutters are marked 408 & 408c (both type 3?) What gets me is the tall/short knob stuff.What I see is that the tall knob doesn't have that little beading where the knob flairs out at the base. The knob on 408c vbm looks like the knob in your post #40.the I would take pics but have no digital cam. I don't even own a cell phone (is that an archaic term?) I know I have a 408 vbm and a 408c vbm from what I can i.d. from your threads and the Sargent plane study site. Man, I wish there was something as comprehensive for Sargent as well as Millers Falls (I've seen the MF type study site) as Leach's stuff on Stanley.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Don,
I noticed that as well. At first I though maybe a Stanley frog, but the lever IS a Feb.3 '91 twisted. That horseshoe looks much wider. Do you think it is because of its small diminutive size needs to be wider? Everything else looks correct, chipper is Sargent.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

I need to look at that closer. I'll need to bid on that. I need a 407 anyhow and want a type 2 or older. (yea I know, older would be my 401K)


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

*"...Man, I wish there was something as comprehensive for Sargent as well as Millers Falls (I've seen the MF type study site) as Leach's stuff on Stanley…."*

You bet. David Heckel did a good job of documenting what he knew back in his 2004 Value Guide. After that, I believe collectors started seeing that there are/were many more varieties in the models than had been noticed earlier. I only concern myself with a very tiny slice of that pie, the #400s series of steel bench planes. I have no interest expanding into the rest of the Sargent line, just too much for me.

That said, I wanted to at least explore this niche with this Forum/OP. Feel free to pitch in as you come across additional information or have questions.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

A #414 with a frog seat like this?









Lever cap has SARGENT cast into it

Tall knob, with SARGENT cast in a box behind it.

Steel wheel.

Underside of lever cap has "409" stamped in it, and there are two ribs.

Between the frog and the tote is cast a 414

Everything looks like it belongs to this plane. iron has SARGENT inside a box with a No. and a "414" stamped as well.


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## alohafromberkeley (Oct 26, 2011)

Mike…it was because of you and others who liked Sargents that I took a chance ( eBay-won both, only wanted one, but I was only bidder on 'em!) I'm sure I'll have more questions as the frog screws on the 408c are frozen. After I see what the frog and pad look like I may have more. BTW, I had a teacher that you remind me of- no one farted around in his class, to say the least. ........Thanks, Wes


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

PBBlaster is good at loosening bolts. Let it set for a couple days if needed and use a large screw driver. You do NOT want to mess up the screw heads. Thus far, I have not found replacement source for these. I think they may be 14-24, an obsolete thread.


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## alohafromberkeley (Oct 26, 2011)

Mahalo again, Mike, I couldn't move them and tried not to mess up slots. I'll give PBB a shot. I knew my screwdriver tip was too small, so I've gotta borrow a bigger one. Dang, you've really been helpful to me today! Really do appreciate that. (and I've got some Evaporust in the wings)...Wes


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