# Shop lighting



## txn (May 28, 2014)

I am plannin I building my shop in the near future and am not finding answers I am searching for, the shop it is going to be a 30×50x10 shop with 2:12 pitch roof I am wanting led but not sure how many or what kind please help


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## TungOil (Jan 16, 2017)

there was a good article on shop lighting in the Jan/Feb 2002 issue of FWW. It was focused on fluorescents, but lumens are lumens regardless of the source. Try to get LED's that are close to daylight balanced (~5,000 deg. K) to be most like sunlight. It's difficult to have too much light in a workshop from my experience.


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## jmartel (Jul 6, 2012)

Twice as many as you think you'll need. Costco sells LED shop lights for pretty cheap. I've got 3 right now in my 1 car garage.


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## JBrow (Nov 18, 2015)

txn,

This is a complex subject. One idea is to visit a lighting showroom and get some professional advice for your lighting plan.

In general, I find lighting performance is mostly dependent on lumens (light output) per square foot of floor area, color temperature (yellow to blue), and the light cone (the angle at which light is distributed outward from the lamp). Some additional factors such as color rendering can also be considered. I have found that LED lamps, while advertised as long lasting, are short lived if the lamp becomes too hot.

Some time ago I was wrestling with LED kitchen lighting and in doing research I came across a lighting standard for kitchens from a town in California (but I have long since forgot the web site). The standard specified 35 lumens per square foot. This standard was confirmed by a lighting designer we consulted when planning our kitchen remodel. I then applied that 35 lumen per square foot standard when I re-lighted my garage workshop. I found that the 35 lumen per square foot provides good general shop lighting. However some additional task lighting in areas where measuring and marking, sanding, carving, bandsawing/scrollsawing, and finishing are performed could be beneficial. If this standard is applied to your planned shop, 61,250 total downward directed lumens would be needed.

However, not everyone agrees the 35 lumen per square foot specification. Some specify 50 to 100 lumens per square foot. All these standards consider only the light that strikes a work surface (downward directed light).

I am getting on in years so brighter is better for me. Therefore I selected a color temperature of around 5000 degrees K to 6000 degrees K, a color temperature that indicates a bluer light and seems to be a brighter light to my eyes. The smaller values (3000 to perhaps 4000 K) produce a yellower light, similar to incandescent lamps.

Determining the area which will receive illumination, as describe by the light cone of the lamp, is important when deciding where fixtures should be placed. In my opinion light from two or more fixtures that overlap when striking a surface that is about 36" high is about right. This 36" height is the general height of most shop work surfaces and thus is where illumination is most needed.

Package labels provide output in lumens and color temperature. Finding the angle at which light leaves the lamp can be more difficult to find.

Here is an article that details lighting a workshop…

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/content.php?146-Lighting-the-Small-Workshop-by-Jack-Lindsey


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## jonah (May 15, 2009)

30×50 is a massive amount of space. You're going to want a *lot* of 4ft LED fixtures. I'm guessing ~12-16.

I find that 4000K is my preferred color temperature, but I can live with 4500K or 5000K.


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## txn (May 28, 2014)

Thank you jbrow that answers some questions about a standard for how much light I may need I've been looking at highway lights on amazon but not sure if my ceiling height is tall enough for them


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## mel52 (Sep 4, 2017)

I have a new 16' X 26' shop, and like the earlier comment as to eyes getting worse with age ( as in myself ), I wanted plenty of light with enough fixtures that I could eliminate shadows. I have 9 - 4' led lights in my shop. Mine are also in the 5,000 degrees K range. I have more than enough light in all parts of the shop than I don't have any eye strain and can see pencil marks easily. I started with a few florescent fixtures but didn't like the sounds, flickering and slow brightness when it was colder. I picked mine up at Home Depot a couple at a time.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

> txn,
> ...[snip]...
> I am getting on in years so brighter is better for me. Therefore I selected a color temperature of around 5000 degrees K to 6000 degrees K, a color temperature that indicates a bluer light and seems to be a brighter light to my eyes. The smaller values (3000 to perhaps 4000 K) produce a yellower light, similar to incandescent lamps.
> ...[snip]...
> ...


txn,
This is an important point. Unless you light your entire house at those higher values, you will have a difficult time matching stains & finishes on any refurbs/restorations. I suggest making at least one corner of the shop lighting to match the color temperature of your home lighting (the more yellow incandescent values).

FWIW, I wasted much time and stain on a refurb, until I realized what was happening because of mis-matched lighting. Just a thought.


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## jonah (May 15, 2009)

Alternatively, you could just bring your test scrap piece into the house to view it under warmer light.


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## chrisirving (Mar 21, 2017)

The best bang for the buck in a shop that size with higher ceilings would be an LED high bay. I just built a shop with 11' ceilings and installed 110 watt (13.750 lumens) LED high bays. They were $100 per light, I installed a dimmer on them also for early morning work when it's just too bright. I went with the 5000K lights also. My shop is only 24×14 and I used 4 of them, it's like daylight with light gray painted OSB walls
I used T1 high bays
https://t1-lighting.com/product/t1-hbled/


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## gargey (Apr 11, 2016)

Incandescent light is so much nicer than flourescent. I haven't developed a strong opinion about LED yet.


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## pontic (Sep 25, 2016)

Whatever system and wavelength I would go with LED. I have 30'X35'X12' shop. I originally used fluorescent lights.
Changing bulbs and ballasts are pain and disposing of them a real pain. I have been slowly replaceing them with 8'led "wire-in" shop lights from Menards. 4500lumens and 5000k. 110volts 45watts. they run 115 dollars or 85 dollars on sale.
IMHO best buy in led shop lights for 12' ceilings.


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## Holt (Mar 15, 2011)

We have one of those prefabricated barns you can have delivered setup for my wife's stained glass shop. The ceiling joists are pretty low. Decided to experiment with some LED lighting. The 5 meter strips need to be trimmed a foot or so to fit the width of the barn. As a test, I mounted three strips, one per joist, on adjacent joists. The light is impressive. Look like we can install one per joist (about 19 total) and you'll be able to see the thing from orbit <g>. Using strips and a power supply from Amazon. I plan on using two power supplies

Power supply: MEAN WELL SE-600-12 AC to DC Power Supply, Single Output, 12V, 50 Amp, 600W, 1.5", LED strips:3 of LE 16.4ft 300 SMD 5050 LEDs Flexible Strip Lights, Daylight White, Non-waterproof, 12 Volt, Indoor Party Christmas Holiday Festival Celebration Decoration.


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## Rollie (Apr 25, 2016)

Don't forget that free light has the has the best color rendering. North light is the best. Granted windows take up wall space and aren't cheap, but you only pay for them once not every month.

There is something about free I like,
Rollie


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## ArtMann (Mar 1, 2016)

I am about ready to put the lighting in my new 24 X 36 shop. I am doing the shop wiring but the guy who is wiring my new house told me the most economical way to light up areas like shops and garages is to buy quality T-8 fluorescent fixtures but use LED tubes instead. I have been checking prices and so far I have found that using this combination is more economical than LED fixtures and the bulbs are replaceable. Most LED shop fixtures require you to buy a new fixture if it breaks.

The other thing I have discovered about LED shop lighting is that you can import fixtures from Chinese supplier Alibaba for about half of what you can by them at places like Costco. Of course, Costco fixtures are also made in China and likely in the same factories. However, I am a little hesitant to buy from them for some reason.


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## Manitario (Jul 4, 2010)

I'm on my 4th shop in the last 8 years. Every shop has had more light than the previous, and yet still doesn't seem like quite enough, especially when doing finishing. I heard somewhere that 600 lumens should be the target for a woodworking shop; mine is around 550. I've found, having had arguments with electricians for my last 3 shops, is that most non-woodworkers don't really have any idea how bright is "bright enough" for a workshop. All of them told me that my shop would be way too bright. All my shops I ended up adding more lights after.

My current shop is 25×40 with a 10ft ceiling. I have 5 rows of 4ft 32W T8 bulbs (~80 bulbs in all). I wish that I'd gone with LED lights (would have saved me $$ in electricity but cost more at the outset). I was told that high bay lights are not as effective with ceilings lower than 12ft…


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

There are videos on youtube about how to convert florescent lights to LED's. It looks very easy, remove ballasts, install special connectors only on one end and insert LED tubes. I got a hold of a lot of 4 bulb, 4ft hung ceiling inserts on craigslist. I've used them as florescents and am slowly changing them over to LED's as bulbs or ballasts burn out. The light is bright (I chose the 'daylight' ones. There are three choices) and they will probably outlast me.

LED shop lights are sooo expensive. Maybe you can go this route?


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## cathode (May 18, 2014)

I put in ten 3-bulb 4ft T8 fluorescent fixtures in my 14×25 shop that has an 8 to 11 foot ceiling. Six of the fixtures are on a motion sensor, the other four are on a regular switch. The fixtures are spaced in a 2×5 grid distributed evenly over the ceiling. I didn't put fixtures over specific task areas or anything.

I typically don't ever need to turn on the manual switched fixtures. With only the motion-switched fixtures on, I have 6×3 x 2800 lumens = 50,400 lumens over about 350 square feet = 144 lumens per square foot (nominal). If I switch on the other four fixtures, I have 84,000 lumens = 240 lumens per square foot.

Painting walls and shop cabinets white will help a lot with reflecting light and eliminating dim areas.


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## builtinbkyn (Oct 29, 2015)

There are new flat panel led fixtures that are available from many sources. These are what I will be using in my new shop. They run much cooler so your shop will require less energy to cool. There's no issues with buzzing blasts or the need to replace them when they go bad. They last much longer than T8s, so no bulb replacements. And they are much more energy efficient.


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## Viking (Aug 26, 2009)

These are hard to beat. I bought 12 of them. 5000K and 7200 lumens each.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/EnviroLite-8-ft-4-Light-White-Industrial-LED-White-Strip-Light-with-T8-LED-5000K-Tubes-ST704T1850/300380331

I'm replacing 8' T12 fluorescent fixtures, hung on chains, 16' above my shop floor. They are a PIA to replace 8' tubes, with one hand while holding fixture with other hand.


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## maverik (Dec 30, 2015)

I just converted to LED in my shop, what a difference, like night and day-excuse the pun- here is a link to the lights I have. $110 for four and free shipping thats $27.50 a peace.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B071KTDBTV/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


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## WoodES (Oct 8, 2013)

I found LED tubes at the orange box that fit a t8 fixture with no additional conversion. I plan to replace the T8 fluorescent with the LEDs when the burn out in about 18 years….

Here is a link to the LED Tubes


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## jonah (May 15, 2009)

> I am about ready to put the lighting in my new 24 X 36 shop. I am doing the shop wiring but the guy who is wiring my new house told me the most economical way to light up areas like shops and garages is to buy quality T-8 fluorescent fixtures but use LED tubes instead. I have been checking prices and so far I have found that using this combination is more economical than LED fixtures and the bulbs are replaceable. Most LED shop fixtures require you to buy a new fixture if it breaks.
> 
> The other thing I have discovered about LED shop lighting is that you can import fixtures from Chinese supplier Alibaba for about half of what you can by them at places like Costco. Of course, Costco fixtures are also made in China and likely in the same factories. However, I am a little hesitant to buy from them for some reason.
> 
> - ArtMann


Sorry, there is no way in hell you are getting "quality" fluorescent fixtures AND bulbs for less than the ~$30 a fixture they cost at Costco. Costco also has an unlimited length return policy, no questions asked.

I don't even believe you can get them off Alibaba in reasonable quantities for that price either when you account for shipping.


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## RonAylor1760 (Aug 17, 2016)

> I find that 4000K is my preferred color temperature, but I can live with 4500K or 5000K.
> 
> - jonah


I find 1850K more soothing …










... sorry, I couldn't resist!


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

> I found LED tubes at the orange box that fit a t8 fixture with no additional conversion. I plan to replace the T8 fluorescent with the LEDs when the burn out in about 18 years….
> 
> Here is a link to the LED Tubes
> 
> - WoodES


Yes, they do make LED tubes that connect to the existing florescent with ballast.
Thing is, florescent tubes aren't that expensive and ballasts are usually the culprit. So if you've got working ballasts, get florescents. If the ballast is gone replace with LED tubes. Thing is, you've got to replace the end connectors because with an LED tube one pin is hot and the other neutral (black and white wires) It connects like a regular lightbulb to 110V. Just need the end connector to do that.
The other end of the bulb goes into your existing connector, but it's just to hold it up. no electricity from that end.


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

I was just thinking…. Since LED tubes simply connect to a special socket (not expensive either) and 110volts. No ballast or other stuff required. Like making a lamp but with a different shape. Why not make a plywood fixture, paint the inside with gloss white paint, put the connectors in each end and connect wires to one end of it? Maybe get four lights out of a sheet of plywood.


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## PPK (Mar 8, 2016)

I don't understand why everyone likes the high spectrum lights (bright / sunlight)... I try to find the lowest K (warmest) lights I can. I hate the super bright blue glow of the 5000K or 6000K lights. I have fluorescent T8 8' bulbs in my shop, and they are typical - really bright white. If they weren't still in really good shape, I'd replace them with LED 3000K… Maybe I'll have to switch to candles like Ron Aylor ;-)


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## PPK (Mar 8, 2016)

And big +1 to whoever said to use windows. Windows improve the work experience and make you feel less "boxed up" too, aside from allowing lots of light…


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## TungOil (Jan 16, 2017)

> I don t understand why everyone likes the high spectrum lights (bright / sunlight)... I try to find the lowest K (warmest) lights I can. I hate the super bright blue glow of the 5000K or 6000K lights. I have fluorescent T8 8 bulbs in my shop, and they are typical - really bright white. If they weren t still in really good shape, I d replace them with LED 3000K… Maybe I ll have to switch to candles like Ron Aylor ;-)
> 
> - PPK


I prefer 5000 because it is close to the color of sunlight. Less surprises while finishing. Even with that I alway look at my finish samples under natural light before committing.


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## PPK (Mar 8, 2016)

Yeah… I've heard that before, but I just don't buy it. Maybe my eyes/perception is messed up, but sunlight always seems so much more yellow and different than the 5000-6500K lights.

Skylights! That's what you need! Oh, speaking of roofs - do you think 2/12 is enough pitch? I guess where I live, nobody really goes under 3/12 or 4/12 because of snow… maybe that's not an issue where you live ;-)


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## builtinbkyn (Oct 29, 2015)

I too prefer 5000k and a lot of light in the shop. Most professional work environments will meet those requirements for the same reason I want them - better able to see what the heck I'm doing and where my mistakes are 

These are pretty neat. I ordered them for my garage, which I originally intended to use for my new shop. LED flat panel These are for a suspended ceiling, but can be adapted for surface mounting or simply hung as suspended fixtures.

Since I'm locating the shop in another area of the house and it has a 2×2 drop ceiling, I'll be using the 2×2 version there while still installing the 1×4 panels in the garage. I will be getting the 5000k version for the shop.


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

> I don t understand why everyone likes the high spectrum lights (bright / sunlight)... I try to find the lowest K (warmest) lights I can. I hate the super bright blue glow of the 5000K or 6000K lights. I have fluorescent T8 8 bulbs in my shop, and they are typical - really bright white. If they weren t still in really good shape, I d replace them with LED 3000K… Maybe I ll have to switch to candles like Ron Aylor ;-)
> 
> - PPK


As my eyes get older I realize that fairly bright, white light makes all the difference. And even though might florescents turn on with a wall switch, I also have a pull chain in each one. I can run on 2 or four bulbs in each light. When I'm just puttering, or cleaning, I can undo half of them. I've got 6 four bulb fixtures in a 24'x24' shop. I purchased recessed hung ceiling fixtures for almost nothing on craigslist and boxed them in with plywood strips. The light is screwed to the ceiling and the box is build right around them.


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## sciotomike (Oct 10, 2017)

Just built a new shop, 24' x 28' with 10' painted white ceilings.
I installed (10) 4' LED shop lights, got them at Rural King for $25 ea.
4500 Lumens, 5000k

First time my wife came in the shop she said she should have brought sun screen.

I used to have individual task lighting in addition to shop lighting.
I have found I don't need the task lighting now, maybe as I get older i'll find the need.

I also agree with the window comment, you can't beat natural light.
I have (6) 30" x 36" windows, windows in my 7' garage door, and a 9 lite man door


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## txn (May 28, 2014)

2:12 pitch is fine for texas, skylights are out because of hail in the spring time and windows just make it easier for someone to break into my shop so not a big fan of windows, I like the lights from home depot someone posted do yall think 8 of them would be bright enough? that's 57,600 lumens total which is more than the 35/sqft that someone had posted earlier.


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## RonAylor1760 (Aug 17, 2016)

> And big +1 to whoever said to use windows. Windows improve the work experience and make you feel less "boxed up" too, aside from allowing lots of light…
> 
> - PPK


I'm awaiting delivery of a skylight. I'll install it in the next few days. Should brighten up my dark little immensely!


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## Underdog (Oct 29, 2012)

When we first switched the lighting to 5,000K LED fixtures here at work, everyone complained that they were too bright. But that was just because they were used to the blinky yellow/orange/green/blue of the Metal Halide Discharge lights.

Once we were a week or two in, no one noticed anymore.

And it's a heck of a lot easier to match colors now…

Here's what I DON'T miss about Metal Halide lights. 
1) They take FOREVER to come back on if the power goes off.
2) They are REALLY hot.
3) They are a fire hazard; the transformers aren't bolted down and aren't shielded. So when they eventually short out, guess who gets showered with sparks?
4) They are WAY more expensive to operate. I calculate the new LED lights will pay for themselves in about three years.

I'm liking the high bay LED lights.

And I like the 5,000K LED tubes for my florescent fixtures too. They're brighter and seem to last longer than my florescent tubes - who tend to hate cold weather.


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## richardchaos (May 12, 2017)

I have been hauling around a truck bed full of 4 foot 2 tube fluorescent shop lights for 10 years. Have replaced all the tubes many times.

Bought my first set of LED shop lights at Menardes last week! GOOD RIDDANCE to nasty expensive fragile temperamental fluorescent lighting!

I had also replace Every ceiling can light in my house with LED a total of ten! One of the best things I every did! All those can light had 75 to 100 watt bulbs in them. Replaced them with 10 LEDs that use 8 watts each and will still be burning when I am good and long dead. SO I can turn on all 10 lights and use less power that ONE of the old ones

PLUS they dpi not get HOT so you can insulate right over them!

What fool would use anything else.

I see them now have even LED that look just like old vintage lights


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Another vote for Costco four foot LED's. Impossible to beat for the money. Too, they have motion activated four foot LED's you can install on a constant on outlet by the doors. I put one by one of the shop man doors and another on the garage side to shop entry and they are great.

For spot lighting and such, I cannot beat Lightingwill.com. I wired my kitchen counters with their 45 LED, 22" long dimmable strips through a magnetic transformer (so I could use a 115 volt dimmer at the switch and into the supply, rather than on the output).

I paid ten a strip from Lightingwill when everyone else wanted forty. Just be prepared to wait the extra week for delivery.


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

I work for a school board. 35 lumens at the desk is the standard. 50 is great. 100 is would be really bright.

I believe grainger has an app on their site you can run to calculate LPF. Pretty sure my boss used it to figure out LPF in a gym we use a temporary shop.

Edit: it was on GEs site. Not grainger.


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## newwoodbutcher (Aug 6, 2010)

I have read up on and tried up grading my shop lights with T8 or T2 or what ever the nomenclature is these days for florescent light bulbs with little satisfaction. What I have found to be the best bang for the buck is the LED Big Bulb, 4275 Lumens Item #: 51069 from Rockler they are $40.00 each (a lot for a bulb) but each one is way brighter than any florescent bulb I have founded consumes 50 watts of power. Way brighter. I attach them to the ceiling with a $4.00 ceramic bulb fixture from Amazon, the only challenge is they need a light shade to direct the light downward or it's like looking into the sun, I haven't figured out a cost effective way to do that yet. . here's what they look like









There is another bulb at Rockler with a shade but the light is not as bright and the first (and only) one I tried stopped working within a week.


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## clin (Sep 3, 2015)

The more light the better. Someone mentioned 35 lumens/sq-ft, that's certainly on the low side. General office area is in the range of 50 and workshops 75 lumens/sq-ft. You need more for more detailed work. Though as also mentioned, you could provide task lighting. Given the large size of your shop, this may be the way to go.

In my small shop, ~12' x 25' I have 8, duel (2-tube), 4-ft T8 fluorescent fixtures giving me in the range of 130 lumens/sq-ft. Yes it is bright. And I love it. I also have white walls and white cabinet doors to reflect as much light as possible.

I have essentially no shadows and can see everything very clearly. With brighter light, your pupils get smaller and with smaller pupils your eyes can focus much easier. So keep in mind that it's the ability to see fine details like pencil lines that matter.

Your age makes a huge difference. There's a reason parents keep nagging kids about doing their homework in dim light. The kids can see it fine, but the parents can't see it well and can't understand how the kids can.

T8 fluorescent are in the same efficiency range as LEDs. Some LEDs are actually less efficient. LED lighting is still sort of new, and while the LED's themselves will last a long time, there are power supplies that are part of these and who knows how well those have been built. Of course fluorescent tubes fail pretty quickly and need replacement. And the ballasts for these fail also. Some sooner than others.

My point is, I would not pay a significant premium for LED lighting since you really have no idea how long it will last. If you can get LED lighting that is not that much more expensive than fluorescent, then I would go with the LEDs.

I also agree you want a cooler color temperature (which oddly means a higher actual temperature) so it is more like sunlight. Mike's idea of having alternate color for checking finishes sounds like a good idea.

More is better, and with your large space, a combination of good general lighting and task lighting makes sense. Lighting a large shop brightly throughout will use a fair amount of electricity, even when using LED or other high efficiency lighting.


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

I repaced my 4 200W CFLs with 4 LED tube fixtures from Costco and when these go on sale again I will add 4 more!
Lots of light, instant on, no hum, and no bugs hanging or flying around.


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## coxhaus (Dec 14, 2015)

I bought 5 of the Costco LED shop lights. I installed 3 of them about a month ago. One of them now starts to take a few seconds to come on. Has anybody else seen this? Is this normal wear? I wondering if I should take it back to Costco for a replacement?


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

If it's slower than the others, take it back. It may be nothing, or it may be indicative of a problem on its way.

I have about twelve in my shop and none of the four footers do that, The roll I cut up, mounted in parallels strips and powered off a supply takes several seconds to lite though.


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## jonah (May 15, 2009)

I'd take it back and exchange for a new one. Probably the transformer is going bad.


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## richardchaos (May 12, 2017)

I am seriously considering mounting LED 4 foot shop lights on my walls about stomach level (light From the sides) so I can see my finishing better.


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## coxhaus (Dec 14, 2015)

The one which is taking seconds to come is the only one I have another LED plugged into so it is the first in a 2 LED light chain. Do you think that is the cause? It did not do this the first few weeks.


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## jonah (May 15, 2009)

No, that is almost certainly not the cause. The things only draw like ~30 watts of power. It sounds defective to me. Times like these are when Costco's generous return policy is particularly great.


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## Holt (Mar 15, 2011)

One thing that I don't like about "plug in replacement" LED bulbs is the built in DC power supply in each bulb. Big beefy power supplies give smooth power and seem to last forever… and they do not fit inside light bulbs <g>. I've never had an actual LED fail in a replacement bulb. I scavenge the LEDs when their power supply fails. If you are doing your lighting from scratch, I'd use DC power supplies and direct wire the LEDs. Just wire the AC side of the power supplies to your light switches.


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## AshTheArtist (Dec 6, 2016)

What I observed using few 5000K bulbs that they do give out pure white light but they seem empty or less dense when compared to 4000K LEDs .. I don't know how to better describe it, but it seems like we are used to Incandescent bulbs inside home (very low K values) and Florescent (even they seem white, most are 3500K like in my garage and even at work). I would suggest buy a 5000K bulb first from Amazon and see if you like the temp before you buy them in wholesale.

For fixtures, I will be getting these for my upcoming workshop -

https://www.1000bulbs.com/product/192377/PLT-20014.html?gclid=Cj0KEQjw-73GBRCC7KODl9zToJMBEiQAj1Jgf0C6waMErhk14y_n02qBUfhIq5wwsB_gf8bC_3S8kDIaAj2u8P8HAQ

best price I have seen for Ballast-less LED tube fixtures. I will probably get LED tubes from Homedepot.


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## jonah (May 15, 2009)

> What I observed using few 5000K bulbs that they do give out pure white light but they seem empty or less dense when compared to 4000K LEDs .. I don t know how to better describe it, but it seems like we are used to Incandescent bulbs inside home (very low K values) and Florescent (even they seem white, most are 3500K like in my garage and even at work). I would suggest buy a 5000K bulb first from Amazon and see if you like the temp before you buy them in wholesale.
> 
> For fixtures, I will be getting these for my upcoming workshop -
> 
> ...


I'm honestly not sure why those are any better of a deal than the 4' Costco shop lights, which are pretty frequently $20-$25. Those fixtures you pay $12 for, then you have to buy bulbs and end up spending the $25 but have to hassle with bulbs. Also you can't just up and return them if they break.

The only way I could understand it is if you didn't want the 4000K color temperature of the Costco fixtures.


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

*jonah* be sure to get the proper tube for the fixture you are buying as some LED tubes want a shunted end and the ones you listed do not shunt!
The fixture's you selected *do not* contain a power supply, it *must* be in the tubes!


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## jonah (May 15, 2009)

> *jonah* be sure to get the proper tube for the fixture you are buying as some LED tubes want a shunted end and the ones you listed do not shunt!
> The fixture s you selected *do not* contain a power supply, it *must* be in the tubes!
> 
> - oldnovice


All the more reason to buy fixtures that don't take replaceable tubes, like the ones from Costco.


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

*jonah*I would not shy away from your selections because a fixture/lamp combination may not contain replaceable tubes. I don't know if the Costco ones I have has replaceable tubes.
What it comes down to is that *you* have control of the individual components and not locked into one vendors choice.
Newer and better tubes are coming out all the time and that way you can upgrade at will!
Check out the stuff that Philips (Hue) is bringing to lighting. I just bought one of their lamps to replace some circular fluorescent's that cost a bunch to replace and operate.










Who knows being able to change the color temperature, not as important in a shop, but useful in many other location.


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## BenjaminNY (Jul 24, 2014)

My garage is 18×20 and I have seven of these four foot by four bank light fixtures plus a few more four foot Leds over sharpening and work bench areas. 
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Lithonia-Lighting-SB-2-32-120-GESB-4-ft-Wraparound-Fluorescent-Ceiling-Fixture-SB-2-32-120-GESB/100427375

I probably would use all led now. You can't have too much lighting. Figure every 5 or 6 feet you should have a bank of lights. For 30×50 shop you will probably need 15-20 banks easily.


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## jonah (May 15, 2009)

Who wants to upgrade the lamps on LED fixtures that will last for tens of thousands of hours? Especially when the thing only cost $25 to begin with. Just buy new ones if there's some compelling upgrade out there.

The Costco LED shop lights do not have replaceable tubes, just FYI.


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

*jonah*, understood!
I just don't like climbing a ladder to replace fixtures and I really would like the ability to change color temperature by remote control to see what my projects look like when moved to their residence.

I haven't seen these fixtures at my Costco again so I hope they bring them back even though the lamps cannot be replaced.

One of the main reasons I switched over a lot of my fluorescent lamps to LED is breakage in the shop and in the house because my wife and I do grand kids sitting 5 days a week. I saw the fingers of one unlucky soul who picked up fragments of an 8 foot tube and cut himself, it was a long time before it cleared up!


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## chrisirving (Mar 21, 2017)

Out of curiosity I checked to see how bright my shop actually is (24×14 with 4 110 watt led highbays), at the center of the shop its 114 ft candles and directly under a light, it's 127
It's like working outside


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## PPK (Mar 8, 2016)

and out of MY curiousity, I had to go find what lumens/foot candles mean… Here's the result:


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## coxhaus (Dec 14, 2015)

Well I took my LED light back to Costco and they did not have any more LED lights to replace it with. So I received my money back. It was a good thing a bought an extra LED light otherwise I would have been stuck without one.


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## jonah (May 15, 2009)

They get those shop lights in a couple times a year. You won't have to wait long for them to stock them again. Hopefully they'll be the same color temperature.


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## coxhaus (Dec 14, 2015)

I just talked to Costco and the lights are a discontinued item. I need 20 more.

PS
I talked to a different Costco and they informed me they will be getting more in. It is the web page item which is discontinued. I happen to have a box of one of the LED lights I bought in the store which has a different item number and they will be getting more in.


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## jonah (May 15, 2009)

Even if they're "discontinued", that just means they'll be replaced with a different SKU of a similar item. They're very popular.


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## shawnmasterson (Jan 24, 2013)

Unless you live down south and never see any rain or snow I would really rethink the 2/12 pitch. Low pitch roofs are always a nightmare, and asphalt shingles are generally not rated for roofs lower than 3/12, but I will never build anything lower than a 6/12. I have turned down 3 barns because they wanted a 4/12 pitch. Sorry I'm no help with the light, I go with the more the merrier. I have a 26×30 with 10 4 bulb led fixtures


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## PPK (Mar 8, 2016)

Welp,
My 8' long T8 fluorescent bulbs started going out last night. I have I think 10 fixtures in my shop, all of which were installed somewhere around 7 years ago. To my knowledge, all the bulbs are original, so that means they are ALL going to start going out now. At $18 dollars a bulb for just a plain old fluorescent tube, I've decided to jump in with y'all and I ordered a 4-pack of the 8' LED bulbs… I'll see how they work, and then may have to order a whole lot more soon.


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

*PPK* you won't be sorry!
I love my Costco fixtures, no hum, instant on, no bug magnet, no flicker, and cool to the touch.
One of the things that have always bothered me about fluorescent lights in a shop is the potential for breakage and the resulting mess, both physical and environmental.


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## PPK (Mar 8, 2016)

> *PPK* you won t be sorry!
> I love my Costco fixtures, no hum, instant on, no bug magnet, no flicker, and cool to the touch.
> One of the things that have always bothered me about fluorescent lights in a shop is the potential for breakage and the resulting mess, both physical and environmental.
> 
> - oldnovice


Yeah, I think I'll be happy with them. As concerns the bug attration: I read somewhere that LED light doesn't attract the bugs… and got super excited. Bugs are the bane of my finishing, since I have to do it on evenings often. So I paid close attention to the LED lights on a friend's shop… and was VERY dismayed that the bugs were SWARMING all over them. Perhaps not ALL LED lights attract bugs, but his sure as heck did… I guess time will tell.


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

*PPK*, the LEDs can be manufactured to not contain any UV, which attracts bugs as opposed to fluorescents that contain a lot of UV,
The LED processes allow very tight wavelength selection as opposed to almost any other light source. 
I did a lot of work with IR, infrared, LEDs early in my career and again at the end of my career which then also included laser diodes!


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## sawdustdad (Dec 23, 2015)

I built a new shop two years ago, 28×46 feet, so slightly smaller than the OP's proposed shop. Also 10 foot ceiling.

I installed 16 fixtures, each with four 4 foot T12 (32watt) bulbs. It's about perfect for a workshop. A 30×50 foot shop might warrant 4 more fixtures, for a total of 20-five rows of 4 fixtures.

I chose fluorescent as they are nearly as efficient as LED, at much less cost. Considering they are only on intermittently when I'm working in the shop, I felt this choice made sense. If it was a full time thing, with the lights on 8 or 10 hours a day, it would have made more sense to go LED I think.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Costco's complete light assemblies do not have replaceable tubes. Of course, the tubes that install in old florescent can be swapped (used a couple in the wife's store coolers and they ran great off a weak ballast. I tore two apart to tie them together for my wife's walk in fridge (store) and they are just the usual LED strips inside of plastic tubes.

At twenty-four a pop, I can't get florescents as cheap.

I have about fourteen in my shop and I love that I can walk in, flip switches and not deal with humming and flickering.

As to efficiency, they and the fluorescents run so close together it pretty much a draw.

SIDE NOTES, FOR FUN:

Bought and new power supply with digital readout and controls for amps and volts. It's really interesting seeking the voltages the several different LED's I have layout around fire at and, lifespan aside, how bright they are at thirteen volts.

My brightest LED's wont fire until eleven volts and melt iron at thirteen (that might be an exaggeration). Each volt increase results in huge changes. Most all would fire fine with the supply set to offer no more than a half amp.


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

You are correct *Kelly*, the characteristics of LEDs are pretty straight forward, no pun intended, as the forward voltage increases so does the light output and the current. 
However, there are diminishing returns after the forward operating voltage is reached (typically 1.2 to 3.6 volts) , as light output does not increase as significantly while the current increases rapidly, see chart below from the linked Web site!









Go here for more information on LED characteristics.

However, missed on LEDs efficiency as they really are more efficient than fluorescent lights.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

On efficiency comparisons, I considered only four footers and off the box wattage and output ratings. Both my original four footers and the replacement LED's ate right around forty watts.

What I do know is the trustworthiness of florescent lighting takes a dive if you try to replace an incandescent with a piggy bulb in under a globe. Florescent lights abhor the head and die quickly. Not so LED's under the same globe.

All that aside, I bought different LED's from lightingwill.com and it's been fun playing with them. All my kitchen under-counter lights are LED, though I'd wired the cabinets for 120 halides. I solved the dimming problem by dumping the 120 into a magnetic power supply and dimming through it at the main switch panel. Something I could not have done with a standard xformer.

Their prices stomp everyone else's I've compared them to, but it takes a week or three for the boat to come in. I order other LED's from them to experiment with and find myself pleased with some of the results.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

> Welp,
> My 8 long T8 fluorescent bulbs started going out last night. I have I think 10 fixtures in my shop, all of which were installed somewhere around 7 years ago. To my knowledge, all the bulbs are original, so that means they are ALL going to start going out now. At $18 dollars a bulb for just a plain old fluorescent tube, I ve decided to jump in with y all and I ordered a 4-pack of the 8 LED bulbs… I ll see how they work, and then may have to order a whole lot more soon.
> 
> - PPK


18 Buck each --dang!
We make them in central Kansas, for less than 1 dollar each….. sell to a distributor for double that… then they sell for double that… so 4 bucks is going rate.









Big advantage with LED - - is the LED, really loves the cold…. fluorescent as you know likes a pretty narrow temperature range..


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

I just downloaded an android app called galaxy sensors. It shows the lux reading from the sensor near the front mounted camera. I don't know how accurate it is. The fluorescent nightstand light in my hotel room read 250. When I turned on both lights and placed the phone on the table beneath both lights it read 350 lux.

In an office it read 500 lux.

Might be helpful in a relative way at least.


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## PPK (Mar 8, 2016)

DONE! I finished replacing the bulbs in all 7 fixtures last night… (er, early this morning)

So far, I'm lovin' it.

Pro's: 
-My overloaded 15A circuit (was at 12.86 amps according to my clamp meter) is now drawing only 4.2 amps!
-The lighting is just as bright if not brighter
-No more humming
-All 7 lights work again
-They don't flicker and go crazy when I turn them on in a cold shop
-I should not have to touch those things for many years

Cons:
-That kind of hurt the wallet… $433 for 16 bulbs… 
-It took awhile to bypass the ballasts and re-wire the tombstones. I think I spent probably 2.5 to 3 hours on all 7 fixtures. I'm glad I cut out the ballasts, though.


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## PPK (Mar 8, 2016)

Oh, and lest you think I got ripped off with the price, these are the 8' bulbs, not the 4' ones… I found bulbs a LITTLE cheaper, but didn't read good things about them. Plus, I'm willing to spend a few extra $ if it means that my bulbs won't start on fire and burn down my house/shop…


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## aki (Nov 13, 2017)

You can always use the lighting math used for homes multiplying the length and width by 40. If it's 30'x50' then you need about 60,000 lumens total.

60,000 lumens should be around 560 watts total which isn't bad at all considering the size you're lighting up. I recently did all LED's for my basement (about 800 sq/ft) and used all LED's mostly with Utilitech (Lowe's) and mixture of EcoSmart 100W equivalent LED bulbs (from Borg). If I were to redo the setup I'd use Hyperikon LED at 70W that pump out 7,100 lumens per fixture.

My space is about 3/4 utilized and have about 25,000 lumens total to give you an idea for a 800 square foot space.

For your space, you'll only need eight of the 70 watt LED fixture for under $400 total:

https://www.amazon.com/Hyperikon-Daylight-Waterproof-120-277V-Warehouse/dp/B01ENWKQVS?th=1

And since you have some head room it won't be blinding either and have a nice beam spread (which will effectively reduce the light output obviously but as long as you're not mounting it ridiculously high it won't be bad).

If the above LED's are too bright or the lighting may not be even then I would go with any 4' LED's that sell anywhere now including most box stores that push around 3,600-3,800 lumens at around 36 watts per fixture. That's what I have for the Utilitech. It's 4000K so it's not overly white but yellow either. But you are talking wiring up and installing 16 of the fixtures…


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## LesB (Dec 21, 2008)

My shop is of a similar size with a 2:12 pitch roof (14' down to 9') with standing seam metal roofing . As far as the metal roof goes it is good for a life time so it is worth the expense and the only problem I have is that I have a lot of fir and cedar trees around and at 2:12 pitch the debris from them has to be cleaned off manually with a backpack blower at frequent intervals. However the metal is still easier to clean than other materials would be in this case. * I also have three skylights in the roof which provides great natural lighting.*
I have four 8' twin tube fluorescent lights wired in pairs so I don't have to turn all four if I don't need them. They provide ample lighting except over some side benches where i have individual flood lights when needed. They have worked well for over 20 years. The con side of them is they flicker when they first come on, especially when cold and occasionally a humming noise. Also fluorescent lights work best when used for long periods of time. Turning them on and off frequently caused the tube to fail faster.
I recently decided to convert the existing fluorescent fixtures to LEDs by buying the 8' long tubular LEDs that by pass the transformer, you have to do a little basic rewiring of the fixture but they fit right in or some makers provide new tombstone fittings with their lights. That way I did not have to worry about the transformer going out or the humming noise they can make. I chose the frosted tubes so I did not have to see the bright points of light from each LED emitter in the tube and selected 4000k for the color…..3000 is to yellow and 5000 is to harsh white. 
The conversion was relatively easy and the lights were great…no flicker. 
However I like to listen to the radio when I'm in the shop and these LED lights put out a RF (radio frequency signal) that made the radio impossible to listen to. The lights were supposedly FCC compliant and I contacted the manufacturer and their only suggestion was to try adding ferrite filters to the wiring in the fixture. They even offered to reimburse me for the costs ($10). I tried it and it helped but there was still too much static on the radio on both AM & FM, especially on weaker stations. I'm out in the country so most of the radio signals are weak. I'm going to use those lights somewhere else and check out a different brand after the first of the year. I still want LED lights in the shop.
For those who don't listen to the radio or live closer the broadcast stations I think LED lights in a shop, particularly a new shop is the way to go and those that wire directly to 120v is far better than those that need transformers.
I have converted most of my home to LEDs and even the 12v lighting in my RV which I especially like because it is easier on the batteries and puts out more light.


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## robscastle (May 13, 2012)

So txm after reviewing all the impressive input and knowledgeable advice from the many LJs that took the time to contribute, ... what did you decide to do?


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## Knockonit (Nov 5, 2017)

I hung 9 of the costco 2 tube lights in the garage shop, well, needed sun glasses, best part about them is, i was able to relocate a couple and dim the light sum, you can hook in a series, as they have an about 6 ft cord on them, just tied them into the original fluro lite feeds that worked off switch(changed box feed to outlet, and away we went. 
I even mounted one on my garage door, so that when its open, i can have direct light under the open door, just ran cord plug to edge of door and hung a cord off wall to plug in as needed, sure made a difference when door open.
happy tuesday
Rj in AZ


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## txn (May 28, 2014)

well I finally found a deal on some fluorescent fixtures, theyre T5 8 bulb fixtures, 4ft long, picked up 15 of them for $500, new the fixtures are $250 apiece. if I keep the 54w bulbs that are in them they will give me 360 lumens/sqft, might have went a little overboard….


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## jonah (May 15, 2009)

Still not understanding why anyone would want to go with fluorescent lighting in this day and age…


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