# "Best" Joint? Pocket Hole or Mortise and Tenon



## mhawkins2 (Aug 18, 2008)

I am designing (meaning I haven't done much more than early sketches) a platform bed. I intend to make it frame and panel all the way around so that I can make three drawers where the fronts match the other panels. I am a novice / hobbyist and I have used pocket holes a fair bit and found them to be quite strong. But my question is more about the *strength and longevity* of the joint. These are for my kids (2, 2, and 4) and ideally my future grand children as well. So I would like something that would last a few lifetimes without needing to much repair. Surely that's not asking to much of a joint .

So at the risk of starting a "vi vs. emacs" or "tastes great, less filling" type of discussion: What is your experience with the qualities of pocket holes versus mortise and tenons?

I greatly appreciate all advice and experience. Thanks!

Where did all my money go and why is there sawdust all over the floor ?


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## BigTim (Jan 17, 2008)

I've used both & there is no way pocket screws alone will stand up to the abuse a bed will see during it's life. They have their place, but Mortice & tenon relies on a broad, well supported joint , not a but joint held together with a screw or even two.


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## offseid (Jan 16, 2008)

Not from experience, but just from my gut: There is no comparison between the two when you are talking about structural strength; mortise and tenon wins hands down. But if it's not a load-bearing joint (like for the frame and panel), the pocket hole joinery should do just fine!


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## Frank (Nov 19, 2006)

Hello mhawkins2;
--hands down or hands up, the mortise and tenon joint is the way to go. You can do a through or standard, but a haunched mortise and tenon will also resist twisting//wracking and adds strength, and then peg//bolt it.

Thank you.
GODSPEED,
Frank


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## pjaromin (Nov 28, 2007)

There's a relatively recent (within the last couple years I believe) article in either Wood or FWW magazine-unfortunately I don't recall which or when-that compared various joinery techniques, including pocket screws and M&T. They performed scientific stress tests. The results were interesting and worth a read (perhaps someone else can fill in the holes in my memory on this one).

That said, I concur with the others…M&T, absolutely. Franks addition of the pegs is also worth strong considering considering the application.


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## miles125 (Jun 8, 2007)

Pocket screws may do fine for the basic frame and panel surrounds. Just not for the main joint intersections in the bed. Theres also some hefty mortised in steel joining methods for beds that may give mortise and tenon a run for its money.


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## BlueFlamme (Feb 23, 2008)

Popular Woodworking did a similar test by dropping 2 different weight anvils on different joints. (it is on their main blog page, but I can't access it from work to provide linkage)

Their tests were on drawer size joints and obviously found dovetails to be the strongest. The pocket screws were strong but when they failed the screw ripped through the surrounding wood leaving it unrepairable. That said, I wouldn't hesitate to use it for the drawer construction, however the frame should no doubt use mortise & tennon or carriage bolts.


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## mhawkins2 (Aug 18, 2008)

Thanks for all of the advice! I have to say I am surprised, I expected some enthusiasm for pocket holes. But taking all of this advice into account I will try my hand at mortise and tenon or perhaps loose tenons for the structural part. I have used pocket holes to built a frame for my workbench and to hold together plywood boxes with great success. The joints have seemed really strong but I have doubts about their longevity. So this is the time to try my hand at some new techniques.

Thanks!


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## teenagewoodworker (Jan 31, 2008)

no comparison. mortise and tenon! then pin it and that joint will never come apart!


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## thetimberkid (Apr 5, 2008)

I like the pocket hole system, however in comparrison to M&T. M&T wins every time!

Callum


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## brianinpa (Mar 16, 2008)

Pocket holes have their purpose and do a great job for what they are, but the M&T will stay stronger long after the screw rusts away.


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## ChicoWoodnut (Dec 15, 2007)

I cut my teeth on vi.
:wq


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## PineMan (Jul 23, 2008)

M & T for me.


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## pjaromin (Nov 28, 2007)

No way, Scott….emacs rulz!!

(Just kidding, I use 'vi' too)


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## Llarian (Jul 10, 2008)

I'm glad to see vi is winning in the side pot here.


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## Chipncut (Aug 18, 2006)

Pocket holes are great for face frames on stationary cabinets, but I recommend M & T for the bed.


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## CutNRun (Nov 14, 2007)

I would agree with the concensus that the mortise and tenon would be much stronger. Using M&T joints for the headboard and footboard make sense. However, I would not use either system for the bed frame rail connection. I assume that at some point you would want to take the frame apart and move the bed. With most M&T joints, this would not be possible. I would use one of the many hardware systems available for bed frames. These metal connectors allow a secure, durable frame that could then be broken down for moving.


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## mhawkins2 (Aug 18, 2008)

Thank you all for the great advice. I will start a project page for the beds once I get some plans drawn. I think Mortise and tenon will align much more accurately as well, no chance of slippage once they are cut.

Thanks for all of the great advice.

- Personally I like kate but I'll use vim if I have to .


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