# What's the right answer ?



## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

When talking to some folks that are Lj members many with 10 -30 years experience in woodworking I find most have had experiences on LJs where a question is asked by a newer woodworker about a particular technique,tools,finishing etc. .after lots of input by the experienced woodworker the new comer decides to follow the advice of someone perhaps as new as they are. As for myself I know I've learned many things by trial and error and want to help others avoid the same mistakes. Of course the person asking the question are entitled to do what they want.
Having had the same thing happen to me sometimes I have felt like input is a futile exercise, but after more consideration I still give what info I can and let the new person run with it. I'm still a little puzzled why this happens but I guess it might have to do with the person having a preconceived Idea or the less experienced person having a more convincing approach with the use of phrases live "for sure this is the way to do it" or "There's no other way". This is not a complaint about not having folks follow my input because sometimes I'm correct in my answer to a question but others are more correct in their response( and on a very rare occasions I'm wrong ) )

I'm just curious what others might think… How do you determine what's the right answer?


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## JackBarnhill (Mar 8, 2009)

Just a thought, Jim: It may have to do with what you described or it may have to do with the ability or availability of tools, supplies, time or money to the new woodworker. It may be that they pick an answer, right or wrong, that more closely fits their circumstances at the moment or what they would be more comfortable in attempting.

Again, just a thought.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

I'd have the tendency to say… "Whatever works!"...

What might be a simple skill to you may not be for another… but, if there is another skill that can be used to accomplish the same thing, that is more suited to the person, then, it's the one that works best.

Good question…!


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## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

Jim, 
You can only do the best you can.
Give the best advice you can or you know and be at peace with it.
What someone does with your advice is out of your control. 
Even our own kids do not generally follow our advices. 
The only thing that you are expected to do is to give the best advice you can, nothing less and nothing more.
Another thing is that we are working with wood and we know that wood is not homogeneous and from one piece to another, wood will react differently, what might be working well for you might not work that well for someone else.
The same is true with tools, we use the same tools but the way we use them might be different and the result will also be different. 
Jim, I always found your advices being good advices.
Thank you .
Bert
Bert


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## Gerry1 (Jul 12, 2009)

Jim, GREAT question! Your input to questions is NOT futile! Very much appreciated! I am one of those who has been the recipient of your and other's expertise when working on a project. Even though I had built a workbench, a rough TV stand, and a wine rack / wine cellar over the years, I've only been trying to build more demanding items for the past year and a half or so. So, what I am saying is that at least I KNOW that I don't know what I'm doing. __

Clearly, the learning curve is steep, but I've found by doing shop oriented projects first, watching the videos available, participating in websites like LJ and WW, reading instructions and procedures, I've learned how to do things the way i like to work. And, in the final analysis, I've learned by doing things within wood working via trial and error.

That being said, to answer your question, my approach is this: 1. Read /study the design / project until I'm fairly comfortable with what i need to do, and determine the sequence ( not always right) 2. Determine which tools and techniques that I have AND have used successfully, and apply them to the work at hand. (BTW I think THIS is where the divergence from the expert advise occurs) 3. Layout the material to size the parts needed, and 4 make the parts as needed IN SEQUENCE for the project.

I can only talk to my way of doing things, but I find a greater level of comfort in knowing what NOT to do, based on past experience. Therefore, I will take al the help and guidance i can get, but will revert to what I know will work for me.

I hope this is the kind of response you were looking for. As always, life and woodworking is a learning process.


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## scrollgirl (May 28, 2010)

Hi, Jim:
I don't think your efforts are futile at all! I think that your experience and the experience of others like you is a vital ingredient in this forum and why many people are here. The way I look at it, there is usually no cut-and-dry right or wrong answer to a question or issue. It is usually somewhere in between. I believe that forums such as this one are great for someone to compile different information from different sources and people and then they can make better informed decisions. There are lots of factors involved in people's decisions: their experience, the time they have to devote to woodworking and also the financial aspect. I think the best thing we can do is give our best advice and offer it to others so they can make the best decision for them. 

Sheila


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## Tim_456 (Jul 22, 2008)

I don't think anyone's efforts and suggestions are futile but like many things, the same end can be accomplished in many ways. The way that I choose is based on my skill level, the tools I have, and how comfortable I am with doing it. Also, I don't think I've ever taken anyone's advice/suggestions to the letter. I usually internalize the advice and then mold it to what I need. Sometimes I fail and sometimes I succeed but either way I enjoy the journey with the help of those folks on here kind enough to give their two cents.

In addition, I also read LJ's solutions to problems I don't have and realize that tricks and ideas can be applied to other things I'm doing so even when the original poster doesn't seem to follow the advice, there are plenty of readers out there that do learn from the suggestion.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Jim, I think there are lots of reasons. Sometimes people just hear what they want to hear. Sometimes, as Jack suggested, they are limited in tools and /or budget.

I think I can speak for the new guy, because I don't have all your years of experience myself. If I ask a question, I might already have a certain idea in mind of how I want to proceed. If you tell me I should do "XYZ", but Joe Blow, another relative newbie, tells me he has done exactly what I was planning to do, with good results, I'm probably going to go ahead and take my chances and do it the way I was thinking. No offense. lol!

Later, I might find out you were right after all. But at least I learned from the experience. Usually though, it turns out to be a case of there being more than one way to skin a cat.


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## FatherHooligan (Mar 27, 2008)

Whenever I've sought advice (either by posting or just reading past posts) I kind of look at more than the answer I am seeking, I look at other answers the same person has posted on other topics..to see if they are sensible answers and the general tone of their answers. If I think the tone is too arrogant or too simplistic I'll keep looking, if the general tone is positive and supportive and the poster sounds like they know what they are doing on many posts I will follow that advice. A personal gripe I have with posters that spell badly… if you can't take the time for something as simple as spelling I will suspect how much time you take to come up with a solution to more complex problems. I guess that comes from my years of being a teacher at a college and years of writing code where spelling really matters.

For what its worth Jim I have read many of your posts and gleaned a lot of information from them, so from my perspective your posts are far from futile. I guess I should advertise it when I use someone's advice…but then that is probably all I would post is thanking folks for their great advice.


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## stefang (Apr 9, 2009)

Hi Jim, I think it is human nature for many to only take advice they want to hear (think back to your teens). Also younger folks sometimes don't appreciate the worth of someone's long experience and depth of knowledge. We are probably all guilty of this on occasion, so don't feel too bad if some don't heed your words. They might also not have read your profile and be aware of how experienced you are. I'm sure for everyone who hasn't heeded your advice, that there are many more that have. Your wisdom will be reinforced eventually with those who chose the wrong approach, and you will eventually be vindicated when they realize you were right. So please don't give up on us!


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

All well thought out and good points. I was not whining about my info being futile just a fleeting thought.
Your are all such good folks.


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## canadianchips (Mar 12, 2010)

You have a good point. When I offer my advise I always try to say "If it were mine, this is the way I would do that". I do have many years wood working, over those years I have made a lot of mistakes, I admit it, I share them with others. (We even learn from our mistakes) Our family has an expression "There is the RIGHT way, the WRONG way and then there is OUR way of doing things !". My brother works in a different field than I do, he deals with public all day long, puts on seminars, has 6 years university.He constantly asks me "How do you tell people that PROOVEN research methods are the way to go". I grin and say to him "They are People, People do not like to be told what to do, plant the information in ther head and let them think it is there idea."He came back from his next information seminar and grinned. IT WORKS ! I still do things today knowning it is not the "right way", I do it because of personal or financial necessity. What works for one person doesn't always work for others. My main point is: I SLEEP well at night because I made the decision.


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## Skylark53 (Jan 8, 2010)

I've sure noticed the wide range of suggestions and problem solving solutions and for that reason, when I am seeking solutions I research for the LJ I think can best answer my question, then I PM him or her. Each and everyone has been open and concise and I've not been confused by a mulitude of ideas and theories, although I do enjoy seeing the various methods and means found here.


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## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

Skylark53,
Psalms 1
Amen


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

Jim, I've seen your shop and some of the work that you have done and knowing that your projects are just a small percentage of what you have done your projects would not come close to displaying your know how and experience. Years of experience in woodworking and different kinds of projects is invaluable knowledge that is not easily acquired. I do not know why some newbies would not want to take full advantage of it when offered. However, if I personally get stuck on something you can bet that you would be one of the first lumberjocks that I think of for advice, and that is the truth.


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## Wfarm (Oct 19, 2010)

there is more the one correct way to accomplish the same sometime a woodworker with five or tem yeras work has a solution that is the same or better but different


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## Dez (Mar 28, 2007)

Jim, 
I am not sure if my answer is any better than all the others here but this is what I think is at the root of it all!

I remember my dad asking me why I never seemed to learn from what he told me - I answered with - A person never really learns anything until they make the mistake for themselves!

It seems that a child will always touch that hot stove, even after being told several times not to, and that is how they truly learn why they shouldn't touch a hot stove!


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## woodsmithshop (Sep 10, 2008)

I think much of the time it is what a person is most comfortable doing, also, it may be what tools or material a person has on hand that determines a decision.


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## alba (Jul 31, 2010)

Jim,
great post.

Last week one of my "Young Rouge's* (my 76 yr old student) came to me with a wee problem.
He had made a mirror from a 3" plank of Elm 24" x 15". It worked out that the bad piece in the centre could come out and leave a nice organic shape.
He cut out the shape and smoothed it all.
Then when he went to the back to route out a rebate for the mirror he found that the back was "Tree Shape" and he could not use the method I'd shown him before.
So I constructed a sled put the wood face down and balanced it the usual Hot Glue & Wedge method. I then put a ski on the router base and milled a flat surface for him to then do his rebate with a template and collar for the router.
Was he happy?
Yes but!
"What would you have done if that idea had not worked" , he asked

Aaaagh! (picture me pulling my hair)

So Jim,
it seems that even when you win you cant win. 

Jamie


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

I think you all pointed out what the right answers are, All of your answers hit a different aspect of the correct answer. very interesting each and every one.
As I was getting these comments to this post stories of my students popped in my head too Jamie, no better way to learn than by teaching .


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## rustictone (Oct 15, 2010)

Hey Jim,
I am a newer woodworker (about 2 years experience doing what I do, failing and then succeeding) and I have to say that since finding the LJ website I have looked to those with more experience. With that said, it is very difficult to start a new hobby/profession and many times I have found myself simply looking for someone to agree with me or looking for someone who has the same ideas as me. It helps with the self confidence a little and makes the newbee feel like he/she does know what they are talking about. Ultimatly, we do end ruining a project or taking a big set back and them looking to those once again with the experiance. I personally love all of the valuable information I have recieved from those with 10-30 years experience and plan on picking your brain for quite a while!!!!


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## degoose (Mar 20, 2009)

Jim stop giving advice… we all know that the newest members have the best way of doing things… LMAO…I say this with tongue in cheek…
On a serious note.. I do not think there is anyone here who is not a better craftsman for listening to what you say.. if that makes any sense…


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## PurpLev (May 30, 2008)

42


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## lwllms (Jun 1, 2009)

I've been told I'm "opinionated." That's not true, opinions can be wrong. I try to keep my mouth shut unless I'm sure I know a correct answer. It is possible there are sometimes several correct answers to a question, though.


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## richgreer (Dec 25, 2009)

Good point Jim. I will take your comments to heart. I know that I occasionally think that how I do something is the best way to do it and maybe that has come through in some of my comments. I recall that just the other day I said, "The right way (and perhaps the only way) to make a pepper mill is to drill the holes first, before turning". In retrospect, I wish I had said that differently.


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## Dcase (Jul 7, 2010)

I have something to add which goes along with what you are saying but flipped around. What you address in your post is often true but what about the experienced woodworkers who are set on their ways and not open to try a newer or different method? Example, my dad has been woodworking for more then 30 years and when I started doing this on my own last year I went to him for all my questions and advice. As I got more involved I started learning more and more from other sources. With the many different resources that I studied I started to learn things that my dad had never done or even knew of in all his 30+ years. When I would tell him some of the methods I learned or did I could tell he was not sure of why I would do that way or what I was talking about. He then would tell me how he does it. Not that I was right or he was right, I was just exploring many different options and methods where he was pretty set on what has worked for him. I think this is the case with a lot of older and more experienced woodworkers.

I personally am always looking to expand my knowledge and I take in all advice and often try many different ways until I find what works best for me. This site has been very helpful with advice and the more the better for all levels, experienced and not so experienced.


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## KayBee (Jul 6, 2009)

I think a lot of times, it is 'people hear what they want.' But, I've also noticed that there is a ,umhh, different way of doing things between the pros and not pros. Both ways work. The pros methods tend to address quality and efficiency more directly. Fo example, a tenon is loose in a mortise. Pro will glue a shim on to the tenon. Many 'not paying my bills doing this', will remake the whole part. The repair isn't visible and the integrity of the piece isn't compromised with a shim or patch. Sometimes, I think the nubies think it's cheating.


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## KentS (May 27, 2009)

Jim, I'm deeply hurt. Since I have close to *50 *years experience (Yeah, I started young) I guess I don't fit in this discussion! LOL

I will go take my Geritol and nap now.

Seriously, It has always puzzed me that young guys working for me would only get my input after getting in over their heads. By then, the project might be so screwed up that trashing it is the only remedy. Then I'm the bad guy for not agreeing, and hurting their feelings. On the other hand, that is certainly not true of everyone. Growing up in the business, I quikly found myself always going to to best craftsman I knew for advice. He was also by far the most critical-he did not worry about my feelings-he worried whether I learned anything or not. I would not trade that experience for all the positive, uplifting, feel good advice in the world.

Too often we want to be stroked when we need a swift kick in the pants. So-keep on giving your great advice. Some will be very glad you did, and others may learn some valuable lessons the hard way. That said, I still learn a lot from guys and gals that may only have a few years experience, but sure have a lot to offer. They have experienced woodworking in different ways from what I have. It's certainly not too late for me to learn new ways to do things. Others have mentioned fitting the method to your own comfort zone, or to the tools you have available. I think that is a very valid thought.


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## tdv (Dec 29, 2009)

I think Jim if 2 people produce the finished article to a good standard & use completely different approaches then there is no right or wrong answer. For instance if you talk someone through the process of hand cutting dovetails so that they will get perfect results & someone comes along & says don't bother with that use a jig & they do & get it right,that doesn't make your way wrong, does it? just different
Keep on keeping on Jim you inspire a lot of people ….me for one
God bless
Trevor


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Wow 50 years is anyone that old?LOL Good example Kent ,I love learning from all of the things you post.
Rich In my post I was not thinking of anyone saying that's the" only way "or "this is the way to do it". it was just an example.

Hey Dan
The point of view that perhaps the newer younger guy might know more than I do is always a possibility I would never say someone new can't have a better way.
There's always have heard about the old saying about someone saying that that old guy forgot more than some other person knows. Maybe not more but some in my case. I have a good forgeter!
It's all about learning no matter what our age,gender, location or background.
All these great comments are really enlightening and make many great points. Even Larrys LOL

Except I don't know what just 42 means Sharron ????


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## FatherHooligan (Mar 27, 2008)

I think 42 is a reference to the "Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy" where the answer to life they universe and everything in it was '42'...thus the right answer must be 42… unless I am guessing wrong Purplev.


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## huff (May 28, 2009)

Hey Jim,
Haven't been on much lately, but when I do, I always look to see what you've posted. I think this is a good question. After reading all the comments, there's not much to add. Lot's of good views, but one thing I've noticed, is in the past some complain when more then one person answers with the same answer. If I add a comment or try to help with advice, I always read all the post first and even if someone has posted an answer that is the same as myself, I will still add it to the thread. If I see two, three, four LJ'ers post the same solution for a question, then I feel pretty confident that it must work. I realize that available resources, tools, and experience play a roll in every aspect of woodworking,but I always value hearing from the pro's, (even if I don't have the tools, resources or experience they have). I'll have to admit, that since I've been a part of LJ's, I've learned as much from the "new" woodworkers as from the "Old Timers" (like myself). LOL. 
Thanks for the post and keep up the good advice…..................I'm paying attention!


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## dfletcher (Jan 14, 2010)

Jim,

Just wanted to let you know that I have often looked for advise through this site and you have been one I have researched answers from. I have looked through the site and have seen a lot of answers you have given and tried to remember them when I have had the same dilemma.

I have also taken your advise about Charles Neil's stuff.

Keep it up, man, your helping to save the Universe, one woodworker at a time!


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

I guess you guys are much more sophisticated than I am but I bet Pattron would have know LOL


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Guess I can claim over 50 yrs experience too, but its all rough woodworking, not fine woodworking ) That's why I ask so many newbie questions.

A friend of mine always asks, "Why does every generation have to learn the hard way?"

A few years ago I saw a young guy stripping multi-conductor cable on a job I was working on. I had nothing to do with him or his crew. I showed him how to strip the jacket off the cable faster and without risking damaging the insulation on the underlying conductors. His foreman heard me telling him the faster easier way. He came over and told the kid to do it the hard way ) Who knows??? If an apprentice came up and showed me something easier and faster right now, I'd thank him.


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## MyGrowthRings (May 4, 2008)

Jim,
This reminds me a little of how it feels to be a new Shopsmith tool user. Though it was back in the '80s when I experienced this, if I asked a fellow woodworker at a woodworking store or show how to do this or that, the first thing they would say once I indicated that I was working on Shopsmith tools was how much time it takes to "changeover", and blah blah blah, when all I wanted to know was which dado set they suggested and why. I distinctly remember placing my first phone order from a mail order tool company for a Freud Safe-T dado after this very conversation at a local woodworking tool store. I'm sure the fellow knew loads more about woodworking tools than I did; but he never could see past his tool prejudice.

I think when the newbies as their questions that we experienced woodworkers should ask a few questions about their tools and their skills, then simply answer the question.

To some it may get old to be asked the same questions time and time again; but we must remember the grace that was shown us when we were getting our start.

This reminds me of the folks who work at Disney parks. Can you imagine how many times each day they are asked the same question: "Where's the bathroom?" I'm sure they have to remind themselves that though they've been asked it a million times today, it's the first time THIS person has asked.

Jim, keep offering your advice and remember what my dad always says: "You can lead a horse to water but a pencil must be lead."

Scott


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## Knothead62 (Apr 17, 2010)

Good topic, a1Jim. Personally, I am reluctant to follow "this is the only way" attitude or instruction. I have found over the years that this isn't always a valid path to reach my destination. Forty two years ago this fall, I learned a saying, "There is the right way, the wrong way, and the Army way!"


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

This is a great topic and there have been many great replies. I can say that I would lose a valuable resource if the more experienced members stopped giving suggestions. I am sure that even when the original poster does not follow the advice given, there are many other members who learn something useful by reading the suggestions given - I know that I do.


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## huff (May 28, 2009)

ChuckV, Very good point.


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## BertFlores58 (May 26, 2010)

*I'm just curious what others might think… How do you determine what's the right answer?*

Jim, 
Everything were said about advise… Just want to add. 
Each one young and old, experienced and newbies, easy and difficult and many other comparative studies alway forget one thing… What is the SITUATION? SITUATIONAL AWARENESS is the most important part of a worker. Someone may say use a TS instead of a handsaw, a planer or a thicknesser, we make advises but seldom we know the actual condition where he is. Conclusively, it depends on the workers which is better for him to take the advise as he knew practically his situation. I agree the best is to PM for further details.

Thanks Jim for the question… very good topic to discuss and point out.


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## Tangle (Jul 21, 2007)

I just watched my 17 year old grand daughter making cupcakes. I told her she should have the bowl in her left hand and the spoon in her right instead of the bowl sitting on the counter as she spooned batter into the cups. I was told that she preferred to do it HER way. The next thing I saw was the bowl of batter upside down on the kitchen floor.

I always preface my suggestions with, " This worked for me." Free advise is worth about what you paid for it. I have learned a lot from following you around, Jim. I hope to keep it up for a good many years yet. Keep giving us the benefit of your experience. Thank You!!!


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## jack1 (May 17, 2007)

Try this, start with, "DUDE"... or "Way" ;0) You and and (especially me) learned by trial and error, why deprive the current generation of all the fun and scenery we've seen (and still see). ;0)


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## rbterhune (Jul 31, 2009)

I am one of those new woodworkers and I personally take the advice of the more experienced…however I do understand why some new guys might not and Jack Barnhill hit the nail on the head.

As a new woodworker many of us are limited on tools, supplies, etc. The brings about a need to do it the best we can at that moment. It's probably not the best way, but good for that time. 3 projects later, a couple of tools and a few lessons go a long way to adhering to the advice of the more experienced guys.


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

Lots of good comments. My tuppence…

Generally:

a) Misunderstanding your answer would be common due to their level of ability- when I was a teacher, I could gauge the level of understanding based on the questions the students asked. The less they understand, the more nonsensical the question. If YOU don't understand their question for sure, that's a *clear *tip off that the questioner is way low on clues. At that point, you are better off bowing out and not having to see or hear later that you gave bad advice. That's easy on the internet- you could have gone for your beverage of choice and forgotten to come back to that post, for example.

b) The person went to the internet to get an answer, but didn't get the answer they expected. It was too involved/hard/required tools they don't have/etc.

c) The internet in general has given the youth of this nation ready access to a mountain of information. Some is good, some is…not so good. A lot of people nowadays seem to have had their critical thinking skills shot off in a Spike channel shootout and don't/can't read or think for themselves.

d) Some people see a head of white or gray hair and think, "Old coot" (I have a serious receding hairline, and gray hair to boot! So don't hack on me for that remark) and stop looking and listening. This I think is an artifact of, again, the entertainment media, schooling our young on what a useless bunch senior citizens are- a drain on society, and ahead of them on the freeway, doing 50 in the fast lane, barely able to see over the steering wheel. I personally pass the highway patrol above the posted speed all the time on the freeway; you just have to do it properly. Trade secret, I ain't tellin' how.

YMMV, these are just some of my observations. I'm pretty skeptical, but then I'm smart enough, sometimes, to tell when the answer is complete booshwah.


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## North40 (Oct 17, 2007)

Maybe a person with a lot of experience will suggest the tried-and-true method which may be a little difficult, while the person without much experience will suggest a "short cut", not realizing that there are pitfalls or long term weaknesses to his suggested progress. The newbie might take a look at the "short cut" and think it looks a lot easier and go with it.


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## Sawdust4Blood (Feb 16, 2010)

Jim,
In Douglas Adams' book "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" the characters discover the answer to the ultimate question of life the universe and everything is "42" only to then realize they don't know what the question is.

I work in an organization where I am older than the parents of many of my subordinates. I get asked all kinds of life questions by young people who then go on to do exactly the opposite. It's what young people do. I used to really struggle with it until one day after one of them had to overcome a major problem created as a result of not listening to my advice, I overheard him telling another young person in the hallway "the one thing I learned most from this experience is that you really should listen to what the old man is telling you…turns out that he knows what he's talking about." So ultimately your advice might be helping people more than you know but just not in a direct fashion. Nowadays as long as my subordinates are not in serious danger or irreparable harm by not following my advice, I just give it to them and let them learn from their own experiences.


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## dannymac (Feb 21, 2010)

everybody has their own way of doing things. i will occasionally ask for advice but will i follow the instructions step by step, almost never. however i always pay attention to whatever advice is given and use that to work out a way of completing the task thats cofortable to me. just my way of doing things


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## yooper (Aug 29, 2010)

Dan, don't stop giving advice. I often find answers for questions in unexpected places. Your answer to someone else (even if they don't follow it) may actually help me or others who may have the same questions.


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## REK (Aug 30, 2009)

I think most persons will follow what suits them based on experience-tools available-time, many times you can pursue the wrong course of action as a time saving short cut, it may not be right, but it is expedient.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I have found a lot of answers to questions I didn't even know I had!!


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## davidmicraig (Nov 21, 2009)

Well Jim, I see some 40+ answers to this question. I think that illustrates the point already  I will add my 2 cents. Speaking from a newbies perspective, I think some of the decision making is how well illustrated a person's suggestion is, whether the solution seems more complicated than the initial problem, and whether or not the advice is given in a way that can be understood.

I have a few friends whose experience well outweighs my own. I enjoy taking a shot at problem solving with them because they can either affirm that what I am saying makes sense, or they can give me the look that tells me I am dumber than dirt. Sometimes, though, they forget that I wasn't raised by a woodworking father who insisted I learn how to hand cut a mortise at the age of three and they will hit me with a 30 second recommendation filled with technical terms that mean nothing to me.

I think that some folks are talented doers but not necessarily talented teachers. It takes a lot of patience to get through to a simpleton like me. I need to know why things are done a certain way. Not because I don't believe you, but because I want to understand the process that is recommended. That can frustrate some people. And then when you add to the mix processes and tools that people have taken a religious zeal in using, it can turn ugly in a hurry.

One thing I will also add is that, from a newbie perspective, us new guys and gals like to take a turn at kicking the tires and participating in the conversation. Sometime I am way off on my comments, but fortunately there is usually someone with more experience to tell me when I am full of crap. It is like target practice, you start off straying far from the target, but as experience develops you start nailing the occasional bullseye. Not fair to the questioner perhaps but, then again, our whole lives are spent trying to tell the difference between ******************** and shinola. Why would woodworking be any different?

David


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## Knothead62 (Apr 17, 2010)

You want to be careful about giving free advice. Socrates gave free advice and they poisoned him.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Good point Knothead62


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## stefang (Apr 9, 2009)

Hi Jim, good question. Sometimes I do woodworking things in a way that goes against all the written and unwritten rules. This is usually when the risk is relatively small and I want to try it MY way. Sometimes this works out ok and sometimes not.

When the risk is large (read expensive and/or time consuming) I usually go with the wisdom gained from folks I trust, ie; people with experience and recognizable skills. I've learned that it pays to heed their advice.

The biggest mistakes I've made involved buying tools. In my case this has been limited to mostly hand tools. I usually catch on after making the same mistake 2 or 3 times. From the posts I read it is my impression that this is the area where most other folks go wrong too, and this is probably due tool to budget restrictions. *I think many who ask for advice on a tool buy are really hoping someone will convince them that a very cheap version of the tool they want will do the job well and also last a long time*.

After all these years I have finally changed my way of thinking. Of course, at my age it is almost too late. I wish I weren't such slow learner.


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## rivergirl (Aug 18, 2010)

I think for me, a beginning woodworker, the problem comes from not knowing the basic LANGUAGE of woodworking. For example, when I look at Mads blogs or the "jig" making blogs I am illiterate and find myself just looking at the pictures. I have NO IDEA what the words mean, so I just try and match the word to the pictures a little bit. Also, beginning woodworkers (like me) don't have many tools. I only have a few hand tools. Therefore, if a master woodworker- like you Jim- were to give me some directions or whatever, you might say something like, "Aw- I see the problem. What would help is for you to make a jig that slides on rails and then use the router, with a GeorgeJones carbide bit set to 1.65 micograms to fully plane at equal depth across the length of each board. When that's finished, make dove tail joints, using Mads K--saw. Then make mortise and tenon joints to attach the legs to the top. When gluing up paint on the glue onto the tenon, insert the tenon only halfway and wipe of the glue bulge…. etc. etc.. But hey- a lesser skilled person, who has tools and venacular like me might say- Hey rivergirl- here's what you do. Use a handplaner and sander to get the wood as level as possible. To build the box, use butt joints to attach the sides together- it's easier than dovetails and it will be good enough for this project. For the finish, start with an good smooth sanding job- to 150. The rub in tung oil- several coats- let it dry fully between coats- it will hide a multitude of sins. Then fininsh with minwax poly. Again, easy to apply - use a foam brush- dry between coats- use a piece of 400 sandpaper to smooth up between coats. So you see, from my perspective- I would love to do it Jim's way - but I don't have the tools and I don't yet speak that language. But I hope to some day.


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## rivergirl (Aug 18, 2010)

Also- I always learn the most from my mistakes. Errors always provides me with permanent, immediate insight and knowlege. LOL And in the future I tend to avoid that which has been painful.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

rivergirl, you can pick up the lingo pretty quick from some good basic books. From the same good books you'd be surprised at what you can learn from just looking at the pictures and reading the picture captions about what's going on in the pictures. A picture is worth a thousand words as the saying goes. Hey, you're gonna get there. I guarantee it.


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## stefang (Apr 9, 2009)

If you see my newest blog (today) I have some help for yourself and others new to woodworking. I hope this will help.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

I noticed a number of folks saying they don't have the tools or know the terminology I'm using. I Thought that I addressed post as if individuals had no experience but I must not be as good at that as I thought I was . I teach an adult woodworking class many of the folks have never even seen basic tools and I try to keep that in mind when explaining any part of woodworking and ask them to stop me and say what the heck are you talking about when there's anything they don't understand. I encourage anyone to send me a PM or ask on line to explain what I'm talking about or is there another way to do that with a hatchet and a pocket knife If that what their tools they have. Like any operation you do need some basic tools but if additional tools are not available or something you can't work in your budget than maybe an alturnitive type of wood working might work. 
Thanks for you input this whole thread has had many point's of veiw I had't thought of.


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## anoldwoodchuck (Feb 13, 2010)

Jim, 
It's likely you have forgotten more than I will ever know. I value your comments highly.


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## davidmicraig (Nov 21, 2009)

Jim, my response was more of a general response rather than one specific to you. The question you asked was more along the line of why us newbies ignore good advice and take the bad ones  Not to be taken by one specifically. I spend as much time as I can with Mike (jockmike2) and when I was starting to turn, he might say something like "Ok, now go ahead and make a dovetail tenon so we can mount it on the jaw chuck" to which I would respond "Huh?" and then he would clarify. Some of the folks out here, including you, give some pretty good detailed explanations. Some of us are just grasping some of the concepts. I can tell you that in one year on this site, my knowledge of the craft has increased so dramatically, I can't even calculate it. Don't get discouraged, we are listening. Even if we don't show it 

David


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## ajosephg (Aug 25, 2008)

Jim
Here is another consideration that hasn't been touched on (if it has I missed it). Keep in mind while the person who asked the question may unwisely follow a different course, there are probably thousands of other guys lurking in the background who will pick up and use your way. So - your response was not wasted!

I know I have learned a lot just by reading the various discussions on how to do something, even though I have not weighed in.

Keep on keeping on brother - we luv ya.


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## surfin2 (Oct 24, 2009)

I've been saying the same thing about newbies giving out advice, just got into WW the last month or 2. I've got over 45 yrs of carpentry under my belt so I know alot, not everything, but the best teacher out there is trial & error… I've had the best tell me how to do something & found that not to be right as far as a better & easier way to do the same thing. Then you have the old way & the new way, I try which one works best for me & go with it… 
I'm here to give advice from my yrs of knowledge (not just to add my 2cts) & get advice when needed…
There's enough trial & error knowing the right way to do something & getting it right…
Like Chuck said… I probably forgot more than they will every know…


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## antmjr (Sep 7, 2009)

Just out of curiosity, the answer I like reading follows this schema:

It's better to do [something], because [reason], or NOT do [something else], because [reason]

Sometimes people - even with great experience, i.e. authority - tend to answer in a hasty manner, without justifying their advice, thus giving unintentionally the impression of being presumptuous or arrogant (unfortunately, internet is a damned medium, and it's easy to give the wrong impression of oneself). 
--
Moreover - in my experience of simple amateur woodworker - a question may allow more then one answer, I mean, there may be more then one good way to get the job done; in this case each one of us has his personal preferences, which are not exclusively rational or technical, imo.

So I like a lot to read something personal. I mean: the personal reasons why one likes a method and not another, because quite always he ends up speaking of himself, i mean, of his life and of his personality; that's very intriguing for me.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Another good prospective.
I don't know if I'm that good at explaining the personal reasons but it's something I'll try to think about it when posting an answer to a question.


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## Kristoffer (Aug 5, 2009)

For me, a beginner, Jack Barnhill said it perfectly. When I attempt something, I have to consider my resources (which are VERY limited) and my level of comfort with my bottom of the line tools.

Another thing that I think about is….. How do I enjoy doing something? Some people (not myself) might think that the way Mike (littlecope) does his box/finger joints on the scroll saw is a waste of time and that he should just buy or make a jig for his table saw or router table. But (and NOT TO SPEAK FOR HIM), I get the feeling that he enjoys and finds it relaxing doing them on the scroll saw. And, for some of us, that's what it's all about. Enjoying the craft.

I picked up a book titled The Practical Woodworker by Stephen Corbett. I found very little of this book's content to be practical. Even though I am a beginner and this guy is a published author, I don't feel like I'm doing things the wrong way when I don't do them his way.

I find it kind of funny that your question is as hard to answer as "what is the right or wrong way to do something?".

P.S.
I think that the way Antonio put it explains why I like Charles Neil so much. He tends to explain why he does things the way he does them. Thanks again for turning me on to Charles N.


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## Millo (Jan 19, 2010)

Hey Jim,

I'm a newbie that asks a lot of questions and hasn't put much of that into practice, out of lack of time, lack of dough or both (I have weird hours, other challenges, etc). But I do take your advice to heart, as I've seen your posts you have a lot of real-world experience, like many others here. I think what happens is that newbies always relate to newbies-as in, "I was in your same situation last month, I did 'x' and it worked like a charm", and the newbie asking for info say "huh, I'll do 'x' ", even though the experienced pro says do 'y'.

Thanks for sharing info to you and everyone on LJ, by the way!


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