# Building a deck with no fasteners. Feasible or not?



## S3NTYN3L (Dec 2, 2016)

My wife and I are almost ready to move into our new on-frame modular home in north-central Florida. We're just waiting for the electrical install, well hook-up and final inspections.

The builders contracted a small crew of weekend-warrior type carpenters to build some cheap porches/steps. They are only really there to satisfy code requirements so we can pass inspections and move in.

I'm wanting to build a deck that will run almost the entire length of the home.

I'm planning on roofing and enclosing/screening-in most of it.

OK, to the point…

I suffer from some OCD issues and I've always disliked seeing exposed screws, and all the splits/cracks they eventually create. I thought about using hidden fasteners, but that doesn't seem to address the exposed fasteners that would be on the railings and whatnot.

I've always found joinery to be almost therapeutic to look at so, I'm thinking about building with no fasteners whatsoever.

What are your thoughts on using joinery for the entire project?

For the decking, I was thinking about using dovetails. The problem I seem to be facing in my mind is;

Would it be better to miter the sides of the deckboards, essentially turning them into pins, and "slide" them into a matching socket cut into the joists?
What about reversing the role of the deckboards and the joists?

As for the rest of the project, I've got it mostly worked out in my head via some quasi-japanese joinery.

Lastly, I really don't think I can afford to use Ipe for this. Would it be blasphemy to do this with the typical PT Yellow Pine? How about just going PT for the frame and something harder for the visible bits? Have you suggestions on wood for that?

Well, thanks for taking the time to read this and I look forward to your input.


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## MT_Stringer (Jul 21, 2009)

I am not a deck builder, but weather exposure is going to take its toll. You might as well get over it. Hidden fasteners for the deck boards are a good choice. Wood moves as the seasons change, and outdoor stuff will be exposed even more than inside projects.

Sorry, I don't have any good suggestions.


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## firefighterontheside (Apr 26, 2013)

Can you get cypress down there?
If this deck is going to be covered and always stay dry, why not use tongue and groove?


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## WhyMe (Feb 15, 2014)

I don't know about building codes in your area, but here in Virginia it will be imposable to build a deck with out using some hangers at least on the sub-framing and railing support posts. We've had a number of deck failures in the past where people have been injured and the construction code has gotten beefier for decks.


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## S3NTYN3L (Dec 2, 2016)

> ...weather exposure is going to take its toll. You might as well get over it.


I'm not too worried about that at this point.
I'm fine with wood aging so long as I seal it properly and perform proper maintenance in that regard.



> Can you get cypress down there?


Yes, I can get Cypress.



> If this deck is going to be covered and always stay dry, why not use tongue and groove?


Wouldn't going the T&G route still require hidden fasteners?



> I don't know about building codes in your area, but here in Virginia it will be impossible to build a deck with out using some hangers at least on the sub-framing and railing support posts. We've had a number of deck failures in the past where people have been injured and the construction code has gotten beefier for decks…


It seems to me that hangers and the like would only be required when employing "common" building methods, IE; butt joints and nails/screws… :/ (undecided.gif)


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## JayT (May 6, 2012)

I see several problems with that idea. First one is scale. Wood movement on even a furniture sized project is far less that what a deck will endure. Plus, with most dovetail joinery, wood is oriented with the same grain direction. That would not be the case in attaching deck boards to stringers and you would be creating inherently weak joints that would splinter easily. Throw in the weathering and much larger swings in temperature and humidity than an indoor furniture piece and I think you are just creating a recipe for disaster.

You should be able to do a railing system with no exposed fasteners. I did it a couple years ago when replacing some porch railings. Combine that with a good hidden fastener system for the decking and you should be good to go.


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## isotope (Dec 14, 2013)

> It seems to me that hangers and the like would only be required when employing "common" building methods, IE; butt joints and nails/screws… :/ (undecided.gif)


I think your missing the point here. Hangers wouldn't be required for strength, they'd be required because your building code says so. The building codes are written assuming typical construction methods. There won't be any guidance for decks built using M&T joinery. Assuming a permit for this deck will be pulled, I suspect the only way to avoid fasteners will be to have plans approved by structural engineers. Check with your local inspector before getting too deep into this idea.


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## JBrow (Nov 18, 2015)

S3NTYN3L,

What are your thoughts on using joinery for the entire project?

I probably do not understand this question. When building the structure, I would stick with traditional building methods. Doing so would make the project go faster and could avoid problems with the building inspector.

Using joinery to prefabricate railing sized to fit between the posts would work and could look very nice. The only potential issue is to ensure that the rail will meet any local building codes. In building a backyard picket style fence, I used half-lap joints to ensure the pickets set flush with the faces of the top and bottom rails. The only fastener was TiteBond III woodworker's glue and the joints have held up well in mid-west weather over several years. The joints fit together fairly well before glue was applied; a key to long lasting joints.

I also would look for an alternative to dovetails joinery for the decking, where I picture your idea as sliding dovetails running the length of the deck boards. These would be a nightmare to cut and potentially an even bigger problem trying to assembly the joint. Even if these problems would be overcome, the potential for water finding low spots and setting on the deck could accelerate deterioration of the deck boards. Also I fail to see how the decking could be fastened to the joists without fasteners showing.

On the overhand, routing a dovetailed dado across the width on the underside of the deck boards that slip into a dovetailed tongue routed on the edge of boards that screwed to the side of the joists could work to hold the deck boards in place if the length of the piece with the dovetailed tongue is the width of the decking. One long board with a dovetailed tongue routed on its edge would be problematic. Aligning and slipping dovetailed deck board grooves on a long dovetail tongue would be extremely difficult. In either case, if the dovetail tongue splits free, the deck board would be loose potentially creating a trip hazard and would be extremely difficult to repair.

There are several methods for attaching deck boards so that the fasteners are not visible. I would personally opt for one of these methods.

Would it be better to miter the sides of the deckboards, essentially turning them into pins, and "slide" them into a matching socket cut into the joists?

The sliding dovetail to keep the mitre joint tight on the deck boards would probably work, but a spline or biscuit would be faster and easier and should also make the ends behalf.

What about reversing the role of the deckboards and the joists?

I probably am lost here. The joists are part of the structure of the deck. The function of joists is, of course, to support live load on the deck while the function of the deck boards is to provide a surface on which things set and people walk. Therefore, I do not understand how function of the deck boards and joists could be reversed. But then I suspect I simply do not understand this question.

Lastly, I really don't think I can afford to use Ipe for this. Would it be blasphemy to do this with the typical PT Yellow Pine?

The entire deck could be from PT pine. While the structure should be PT pine, the decking and railing and skirt board could be a mix of materials. Some material choices that come to mind include pressure treated lumber, synthetic decking, cedar, redwood, and cypress. Cellular PVC is a material that could be used in some non-structural areas of the deck.


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## S3NTYN3L (Dec 2, 2016)

> What about reversing the role of the deckboards and the joists?
> 
> I probably am lost here. The joists are part of the structure of the deck. The function of joists is, of course, to support live load on the deck while the function of the deck boards is to provide a surface on which things set and people walk. Therefore, I do not understand how function of the deck boards and joists could be reversed. But then I suspect I simply do not understand this question.


This sounded clearer in my head.

I was referring to reversing which piece of wood would act as the pin and which would act as the socket. You've already covered that in your reply, however. 

It looks as though I'll be forced to use hidden fasteners after all. 

It's not that I'm against them, it's just that, (with the little research I've done thus far on them), you can still see the fastener/clip in the seam. The final result of some of these clip systems look rather hideous to me, lol.

As for composites and synthetics, I'd prefer to stay away from them.
Ipe and Cedar would be too expensive. Cypress could work, however.

Well, it looks as if my OCD brain got lost in the details and completely glossed over the practicality of no fastener decking, lol.

I'd love to see some pics of you guys' hidden fastener railings if you'd be so kind as to upload them.
After looking at them, I'll probably need to rethink the designs I've already stored in my head, lol. ;P

Thanks to you all for the input so far!


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## runswithscissors (Nov 8, 2012)

If it's possible to work from underneath the deck, you could fasten with pocket screws from the joists into the decking. Another way would be to use angle iron clips from underneath, using screws into both the joists and decking.

OCD can be hell to live with, for everybody involved (including us here at LJ). Have you discussed this with a therapist? Not meaning to be rude, really.


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## MrSmith670 (Jan 26, 2014)

I'm sure it's feasible, but one question.
Is the juice worth the squeeze?
I know it could be done, but I would keep the framing as typical construction, and if I were so inclined, do everything else with joinery.
There is several ways to fasten deck boards without seeing the screws.
I built my deck traditionally framed, and with some cleverly placed pocket holes, biscuits, and lots of glue, you would be hard pressed to find 15 screw heads anywhere in my deck. (That is the parts you see)
After all that hard work, no one has ever mentioned the lack of screws in my deck. I am a carpenter by trade and a woodworkee by hobby so maybe they expect something like that though.
Whatever you decide, good luck, just by asking the question I have no doubt it'll turn out very nice.

Edit: I found a picture of it. Nevermind my extremely pregnant wife. She would kill me if she knew I posted this photo. Hahaha


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

I have built several decks with hidden fasteners.This Is what I used.http://www.grabberman.com/Deckmaster/AboutDeckmaster.aspx
I also think you should use your Ocd energy somewhere else.Because it just a deck and it's going to look pretty rough in a couple years.Even if you splurge and buy the very best Alaskan yellow cedar.That they use to build temples in 
Japan.

Aj


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

I live in FL and I have build my share of decks.

The problems with typical PT pine are warping, splitting and splintering. If you don't pressure wash and seal every year, the typical uncovered treated pine deck is good for 5-10 years less if in a damp, shady area. Very subject to mold and mildew. The cypress we have around here is not suitable for decking.

As he^ said there are hidden fastener systems. I've never used them I always use the green decking screws they are not that noticeable. I definitely recommend predrill/countersink. This prevents splitting at the ends of the boards. Plus makes a cleaner job. You could drill deeper and plug holes but this is a LOT of extra work.

If you're using treated pine decking boards DO NOT leave a gap instead butt them tight together because they WILL shrink.

If you can do it, the best way to go is composite decking. Its about 4x the cost but pays for itself in the long run.

Dovetails? Really?


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## jeffswildwood (Dec 26, 2012)

I am by far no expert on decking or porches but I have built (and rebuilt) my share of outdoor structures. One thing I have noticed using PT pine is as stated above, it will shrink, move and twist with time. I too am a bit of OCD with screws and fasteners showing. (I think all us wood workers are). A good compromise might be using dowels to hide them. It may make a decorative touch but would be a lot of work. Lots of forstner bit countersinking. On items like joist hangers a wooden cover (box) would also be a nice decorative touch. Just my thoughts, screws hidden and the strength still there.


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## MT_Stringer (Jul 21, 2009)

Living in Florida, what are the building codes for decks. I would be willing to bet there is some hurricane verbage that has been added through the years. Right?


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Welcome to Ljs
I build 20-30 decks a year give or take and I've been contracting for close to 30 years and a wood shop owner for the same amount of time.Woodworking joinery is great but most of it is not suitable for outdoor structures ,even mortise and tenons make some great timber framed buildings but do not suffer the exposure that most decks have.
Lots of good points in this thread like "wood movement" "being code worthy" .Some places codes are not and issue others are super critical .If codes are an issue many times they follow the uniform building code ,which means joist hangers are a must for your joist. As far as top screwing your decks surface down there are a number of choices such as J2"s suggestion and other hidden fasteners that meet code,but most of them are relatively expensive ,some costing a $1 or more per fastener adding perhaps $300 for a small deck in the 10'x12' range there are also so pocket screw systems that have hidden screws but I've always been skeptical of them because of the wood or composite movement factor.
Here are a few choices of hidden fasteners some are meant for composite decks but if your deck surface material is the correct thickness and you put grooves on the edge can still be used for wood decks.

https://www.lowes.com/pd/MANTIS-Clip-Hidden-Fasteners/3721064

https://www.lowes.com/pd/MANTIS-90-Count-Self-Drilling-Clip-Hidden-Fasteners-50-Sq-Ft-Coverage/3732903

https://www.lowes.com/pd/SHADOE-TRACK-20-Count-Grey-Bracketing-Deck-Hidden-Fasteners-66-sq-ft-Coverage/4751794
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Trex-Universal-94-Count-Black-Clip-Deck-Hidden-Fasteners-50-sq-ft-Coverage/999910479

https://www.lowes.com/pd/FastenMaster-Versaclip-90-Count-Black-Self-Drilling-Clip-Deck-Hidden-Fasteners-50-Sq-Ft-Coverage/4684015


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## S3NTYN3L (Dec 2, 2016)

> If it's possible to work from underneath the deck, you could fasten with pocket screws from the joists into the decking. Another way would be to use angle iron clips from underneath, using screws into both the joists and decking.


Yes, even at the low end, I'd be able to sit somewhat comfortably. Well, the bottom of the joists would be about eye level, but It'd only be like that for maybe five feet of the length of the grade…



> OCD can be hell to live with, for everybody involved (including us here at LJ). Have you discussed this with a therapist? Not meaning to be rude, really.


No worries, I didn't think you were trying to be rude.

Yes, I've discussed this with my therapist. I've been seeing one every week for that past two years. Ever since, I'm sorry to say, a suicide attempt. (I'm feeling much better now, I swear, lol!)

In the spirit of full disclosure, I'm 38 years old and was only recently diagnosed with an ASD as well as, STPD, BPD and OCPD, (this is the kind of OCD where my odd habits/tics/rituals/whatever don't bother me in the slightest).

But enough about my stupid issues…



> I'm sure it s feasible, but one question.
> Is the juice worth the squeeze?


Lol, probably not. At least not to anyone other than me.
My personality makes it impossible to NOT obsess over the tiniest mistake I may or may not have made. or how I could have done it better.

While I'm not currently working, (too many anxiety issues at the moment), I'm a Machinist. I've only ever worked the trade making medical implants. I can't tell you how many times my superiors have shown their displeasure with me when I've scraped out parts that didn't meet MY quality standards. IE; PERFECT IN EVERY DETAIL.

Yup, they had to constantly remind me that I wasn't making jewelry.
I would always say, "To hell with that!", because the stuff I made was going in someone's body. Good enough is never good enough in my mind. Especially when it might actually save a life.

Would you mind posting some close-ups of the railing joinery you employed?
I'd love to see it so I can get some ideas.



> A good compromise might be using dowels to hide them. It may make a decorative touch but would be a lot of work. Lots of forstner bit countersinking. On items like joist hangers a wooden cover (box) would also be a nice decorative touch. Just my thoughts, screws hidden and the strength still there.


This might be the route I'll take.
At least then I'll be able to pretend that the plugs are actual dowels holding the decking in place, ha ha.



> Living in Florida, what are the building codes for decks. I would be willing to bet there is some hurricane verbiage that has been added through the years. Right?


True enough.
My hope was that I could circumvent all that with some badass joinery, ya know!? 



>


Hmm, I might go this route too.

After watching the video, my wife says to use this method. But I'm always going to know that the holes are there.
Hopefully, the wood would swell enough to completely hide the holes that will inevitably eat at my soul each and every time I look at the deck, lol.

---

I can't wait to show you all the workshop I plan on building.

Wifey says I need not return to a "normal" job because we both know, deep down, that it will almost certainly cause more problems more me mentally than it solves for us both financially.

Instead, she is supporting me in my plan to build a workshop with an attached shadehouse for aquaponically grown herbs and veggies and whatnot that we'll sell to local farmers' markets, co-ops and restaurants.

On top of that, I'm seriously considering making a business of creating COMPLETELY handmade (no power tools type thing) wooden clocks and small furniture, etc. I really think my perfectionism will FINALLY come in handy in this regard, lol!

OK, I've rambled on quite enough for now.
Thanks so much for the warm welcome and all the input!

It will be a few months until I start the deck, but I plan on detailing the project with all of you here.
Beware, ha ha!!!


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## TajBuilder (Aug 6, 2008)

Wood has to be allowed to move. Check out this system that spaces the wood, hides the screws, and doesn't require secondary fasteners. You can also remove a damaged board anywhere in the deck.

http://www.camofasteners.com/hidden-deck-fastening-system/


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## S3NTYN3L (Dec 2, 2016)

> Wood has to be allowed to move. Check out this system that spaces the wood, hides the screws, and doesn t require secondary fasteners. You can also remove a damaged board anywhere in the deck.
> 
> http://www.camofasteners.com/hidden-deck-fastening-system/
> 
> - Roy Turbett


Thanks, Roy!

Yeah, that was the system that a1Jim suggested also.
I'll probably use this system when it's all said and done.

I really hope my OCD doesn't trigger too bad because, even with this system, I'd still see the holes each time I went out on the deck even though no one else would.

They ran the phone line(s) yesterday. The electric and water lines have been installed for the house and the well earlier this week. Now it's just a waiting game for the inspections and for the power company to install their part of things.

Contractor called yesterday and told me that the county inspector wants light bulbs in ALL fixtures else we'll fair said inspection.

So, it's off to the bix box store this morning for about $200 worth of CFL or LED lighting. Ahh, the joys of home ownership, lol!


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