# Looking for some specific carving chisels that won't take a second mortgage



## CharlesA (Jun 24, 2013)

My daughter is making some bandsaw boxes from a Fine Woodworking video series.

The videos call for 
#12 6mm v gouge 
#5 30mm sweep gouge 
#5 12mm sweep gouge 
#9 3mm sweep gouge

These appear to be gouges usually sold individuall at about $50-80/piece-I'm not up for $200+ for this one set of projects. I've checked out numerous starter sets that don't seem to include any but the V gouge. I can approximate them with 4 FlexCut Mallet gouges.

Flex-Cut #5 X 1-3/16 Mallet Sweep MC505
Flex-Cut #5 X 11/16 Mallet Sweep MC305
Flex-Cut #11 X 1/8 Mallet Sweep MC211
Flex-Cut 60¦ X 3/8 Mallet V-Tool MC360

That's about $120, still more than I'd prefer to spend right now, but a lot less than the Pfeils.

I'd appreciate any wisdom you might have. She has some OCD tendencies, so it isn't easy to just say "use this instead."

I know little about carving gouges, so I'm at a loss here.

Charles


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## Ocelot (Mar 6, 2011)

Used carving tools go cheaply on ebay. You might not have the specs but I'm sure you can find equivalent for much less money.


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## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

Flexcut sweeps and Pfiel sweeps may not have the same curvature geometry Charles. Manufacturers define their own sweep profiles, it's not standardized across the industry. They may or may not be close enough to accomplish what she needs. Also, a 1-3/16" #5 sweep will likely do what you need the 11/16"#5 for. It'll be the same geometry, just larger.

Also, gouges aren't the easiest tools to sharpen. And they have to be SHARP or they will make a priest cuss. So you're gonna need to have strops and/or slip stones that have the right profiles… sorry :-/


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## ClaudeF (Sep 22, 2013)

Here's a chart that might help. I believe this is the same sweep pattern that Pfiel uses. You can see what the sweeps look like here: https://www.woodcraft.com/search?q=gouge&button=search

In the chart, you can see that, for example, a #5 6mm gouge has the same radius curve as a #9 12mm gouge (both have a 6.0mm radius curve. Similarly, a #7 16mm and a #4 6mm gouge have almost the same radius curve (10.1mm vs. 10.0mm)...


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## CharlesA (Jun 24, 2013)

> In the chart, you can see that, for example, a #5 6mm gouge has the same radius curve as a #9 12mm gouge (both have a 6.0mm radius curve. Similarly, a #7 16mm and a #4 6mm gouge have almost the same radius curve (10.1mm vs. 10.0mm)...


Just when I thought I was beginning to understand.


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## John Smith_inFL (Dec 15, 2017)

Charles, the majority of my gouges came from Wood Carvers Supply . com
(over the years, I bought them as I needed them - never bought a "set".
and like Claude said, you can make substitutes with no issues. (and sometimes cheaper).
(just another option).

.


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## DaveMills (Jan 17, 2020)

Edit: I guess I'm a slow typist. While I was typing, several other similar posts came in 

I suspect you won't find that particular list of gouges in a set together. So you're stuck finding vendors that sell individual chisels (many don't seem to, and those that do are the higher end ones), or used. Does she already have a set of chisels, and if so what sizes does she have?

You might read up on the numbering system, to see if something she has can legitimately substitute for one of these. As an example, all #5 gouges are sections of the same radius circle. The larger ones simply cut a wider section. So conceptually, two slices with a #5-15 is the same as a #5-30. And a #4 is just a touch larger radius than a #5, and #6 just a touch smaller than a #5. So depending on how accurately she's trying to reproduce the curves on the box, it could very well be that a nice #6 you might find is "close enough" to that #5 called for.

But I'm an OCD guy too, so I can appreciate her situation…


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## DaveMills (Jan 17, 2020)

> In the chart, you can see that, for example, a #5 6mm gouge has the same radius curve as a #9 12mm gouge (both have a 6.0mm radius curve. Similarly, a #7 16mm and a #4 6mm gouge have almost the same radius curve (10.1mm vs. 10.0mm)...


That's an interesting chart. It's not the way it's been explained to me, but I don't have Pfeil gouges to compare to. So I guess it's true, the "standard" is not standard.


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## pontic (Sep 25, 2016)

If you know how to sharpen and strop then Narex makes carving chisels very close to Pfiels. 
Narex doesnt come with a sharpened edge like the Pfiels. Flexcut don't lend to mallet work very well either.
I do most of my carving with a #7 and V-parting tool. Get her those and tell her to practice projects from Mary what's her names play book and if she still wants to carve then she can get more one at a time.


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

Here's something to consider. Unless she is making a stop cut that requires a specific radius of curvature, she can use any number of gouges, as long as it follows the edge lines. Same for the v-tool. The beauty of carving is that it releases one from the strictures of machine work. I designed tools and other things that required the parts to be made to the print. It took me a while to realize that this isn't necessary in carving. I bought Lori Irish's book on wood spirits, and while I was working through the tutorial in that book, I noticed that the pattern there and the wood spirit on the cover weren't exactly the same. I realized that if I made a mistake (I did- I cut off too much of the mustache) unless you point it out, probably nobody will notice! It's quite liberating.

ETA- the English and Swiss use a different system. A #9 in England has a different curvature than a #9 in Switzerland. That's handy if one actually does care about the curvature- one can use either to get what they want.


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## MikeTN (Mar 4, 2021)

As has already been alluded to, substituting tools of similar radii and widths is common carving practice. I would suggest you look into the Schaaf tools through Amazon for a decent general set of full -sized tools and then investigate other sizes and profiles as the need arises. They (like nearly all new tools) require initial sharpening but will do great work and are more reasonable than many other brands on the market. Unlike a lot of other inexpensive sets, they actually follow the design of traditional European carving tools. Carving is a lot like painting in that we may start with the same paints the same brushes, and the same inspiration, and still end up with a slightly different end product. Likewise, you can start with different tools and end up similar results. I have lots of "brand name " tools and the Schaaf tools are among my best in spite of being relatively inexpensive.


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## ClaudeF (Sep 22, 2013)

> ...
> 
> You might read up on the numbering system, to see if something she has can legitimately substitute for one of these. As an example, all #5 gouges are sections of the same radius circle. The larger ones simply cut a wider section. So conceptually, two slices with a #5-15 is the same as a #5-30. And a #4 is just a touch larger radius than a #5, and #6 just a touch smaller than a #5. So depending on how accurately she s trying to reproduce the curves on the box, it could very well be that a nice #6 you might find is "close enough" to that #5 called for.
> 
> ...


It may depend on the manufacturer. For Pfiel Tools, the radius is different for each sweep. Here's a link to the Pfiel profiles. The site is in German, but the curve is clearly shown for each different sweep. I believe the flex cut tools are very similar to these. https://pfeiltools.ch/katalog/#page-14

Claude


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

Essentially Sheffield and European "standards".

The Pfeils are from Claude, above. Here are the shapes for Sheffield. Note that Sheffield starts at 3 for gouges, as they use #2 for skew chisels.


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## rad457 (Jun 15, 2013)

I have been picking up the Hirsch carving gouges from Lee Valley, wish I had bought more years ago!
Most are about $50 CAN. so should be cheaper in US $ ?
Very good quality and come sharp, just need a chunk of Leather and some compound for a quick hone and good to go. Still have a V gouge on my wish list to match set as had to but Henry Taylor when the Hirsch were back order.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

Bandsaw boxes are usually pretty small. Is she carving a design or more of a texture. Just wondering if she could use a palm or the Japanese micro gouges and save a few bucks.

Can you share a picture, pattern or screen capture of the the carving she is trying to do?


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## rad457 (Jun 15, 2013)

> Bandsaw boxes are usually pretty small. Is she carving a design or more of a texture. Just wondering if she could use a palm or the Japanese micro gouges and save a few bucks.
> 
> Can you share a picture, pattern or screen capture of the the carving she is trying to do?
> 
> - Lazyman


Good point, even for my big chisels, rarely use anything over 1/2"! Picked up a set of Millers falls. N.I.B. for about $30 not that long ago?


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## Phil32 (Aug 31, 2018)

Woodcraft has the exclusive dealership license for Pfeil tools in the U.S., so if you're shopping for new gouges from Pfeil, don't waste time looking for them at other hardware dealers. For used tools consider the usual sources.


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

If you are looking at Pfeil , I hope you are not in a hurry. I was given a 12 piece starter set for Fathers day and the last one came the day before Christmas.


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