# My neighbor's woodshop



## karena02 (Jun 3, 2016)

Hi! I'm not actually a woodworker, but I share a building with a woodshop, and I'm looking for some help.

I live in a large metal building, divided in half inside: One side is our apartment, the other is the woodshop. The woodworker is a close acquaintance, and we get along well enough..but..

Our ventilation is, in theory, separated…but any time he paints or finishes, our apartment fills with fumes. Tonight, it is strong enough to make my eyes water and my stomach nauseated. We turned off the AC all day, but needed to turn it back on tonight, and as soon as we did, the fumes were blown back into the house.

He builds, finishes, and paints new cabinetry for new houses or remodeling. I went over to the shop tonight to find out what all the fumes were coming from, and his shop is hazy and the smell is so strong that I was choking even with my shirt over my face. He has what appears to be an entire kitchen's worth of freshly painted cabinets drying in the closed shop.

I don't want to complain to him (again) about this, but…we're dying over here…and it just doesn't seem safe.

During the day, he has a side door open and his exhaust fan blowing out from a garage door with two pieces of plywood next to the fan. That's all I can see of his exhaust set up.

Is this a normal set-up, and safe, and something we should just get used to? Or…do you have any ideas for how to approach the subject with him?


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## zipzit (Mar 21, 2015)

Er, no. That's mighty unsafe for you and him as well. If you can even smell the solvent that's way too much. If you are getting a headache or feel ill, that's causing damage.










I wear one of these for painting, sanding, cutting and welding galvanized steel (even after the galvanized coating is ground off…) You will need to purchase the correct filter for airborne solvents.

You need to come to a better resolve with your neighbor. He needs to take better care of himself when he does finish work.

In addition to the unhealthy fumes to your breathing, what about the fire risk? Are you well insured?

Hmm.. that's why its rare you see folks living in a building that is also zoned for businesses. I'm surprised your landlord allows it. Too many potentials for trouble. I'm sure there must be a story there.. I guess we don't want to know the details.

Good luck. And best bet… wear masks until everything is clear.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

You don't give enough information of anybody to give good advice.

What is this property zone for? Is it commercial or residential? Who was there first?

How is it that a residential space and a commercial shop is in the same building?

Who owns the building? There's something really strange about this setup.


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## rhett (May 11, 2008)

I agree with AlaskaGuy. How is this even a possible scenario? One of you isn't zoned to be there. Also, when there is solvent based finish, thick enough to cause a visible haze, you technically have a bomb floating around.

This is a topic for your landlord.


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## karena02 (Jun 3, 2016)

Thanks for the replies.

I don't know what the zoning of the building is. He was there first, though the building has always been half residence, half business (it once housed a stock car repair thing). But even though he was there first, I'm not sure what relevance that has if my landlord advertised the other side for rent and didn't mention the fume situation. (the woodshop is renting too) I don't think the landlord knew about it. Once he found out, he moved a wall so the HVAC was on our side which did decrease some smell issue, but not all.

My landlord has been unreachable for days now, which is very frustrating. We ended up opening up the shop (we have access…yes, it's bizarre) and our house and setting up a cross breeze with his big fan to pull fumes out of our house and his shop at the same time. (he was unreachable too.) We had to continue to leave the AC off as well.

Thanks for confirming that this is not a safe situation. I'll be discussing more details with the landlord.


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## karena02 (Jun 3, 2016)

Oh, PS - we live in a very small town, and have shared this space almost 3 years now. The city is aware of the situation, and regardless of zoning, hasn't said anything.


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## bruc101 (Sep 13, 2008)

If the EPA ever discovers that situation a whole lot of folks will be in a whole lot of trouble. You're health, and his, is in a bad environment. My advise would be to move and move immediately.


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## OSU55 (Dec 14, 2012)

Sounds like the hvac is pulling at least some make up air from the other side, either a leak somewhere or even a return air inlet. This is not good, even without the fumes, and can be fixed by the landlord. As for the fumes, build up of solvent finishing fumes is a bomb waiting to be lit. Cannot be allowed to continue. There are waterbased alternatives, finishes and stains, that are not explosive.


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## bondogaposis (Dec 18, 2011)

I'd move.


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## BinghamtonEd (Nov 30, 2011)

I'll echo the previous comment…move. Like others have said, the fumes are just waiting to be ignited. And it doesn't take an open flame. Any small electrical spark. It sounds like you, your neighbor, and the landlord need to familiarize yourselves with the risks (health, safety, environmental) of the situation. If this neighbor of yours is stupid enough to work a haze of unventilated fumes, and your landlord is stupid enough to allow this to happen, you'd be stupid to keep yourself in a situation like that. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but this situation is going to end up with someone getting hurt/killed, someone getting arrested/fined, or both of you suffering long-term health issues if neither of those happen.


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## clin (Sep 3, 2015)

I think there is no doubt this is bad for your health. It's one thing for a weekend warrior to stink up their house with the occasional project, it's another to be exposing yourself to this on a regular basis.

In a work environment, OSHA would never allow workers to be exposed to those, apparently, high levels of fumes, for extended periods of time, and you are living with it.

If the two areas could truly be sealed off, and the workshop properly vented to dissipate the fumes. Then maybe your living space could be safe. But, I really doubt you could ever seal things well enough to make it work being that close to the workshop.

Remember, even if you seal off the building internally, fumes can still flow around from the outside. The fumes don't just magically dissipate because they get on the outside of a building.

I'm with Bondo, I'd move.

And I'd try to do the next potential tenant a favor and make sure appropriate authorities are aware of this. It should not be allowed.

FYI, that respirator shown earlier is a particle respirator, you need an organic vapor respirator. Of course, neither is a practical way to live.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

I wouldn't live in an environment like that. It's bad enough to have to tolerate it periodically during the work hours. It's very bad for you to breath those fumes and it's also a fire and/or explosion hazard if you're spraying flammable materials without a proper spray booth.

helluvawreck aka Charles
http://woodworkingexpo.wordpress.com


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## Nubsnstubs (Aug 30, 2013)

You could always do what a neighbor did to me back in '87. Call the EPA, and he'll definitely get the message. I was in an industrial complex before fume zoning became an issue, but instead of asking me to spray my stuff in the evening when they weren't around, he just called them. the epa woman came out with her fume trained nose and stated she didn't smell anything, but I'd have to buy a permit to keep spraying my finishes under their watchful eye. I know I'm drifting off topic, so, in your case, move and let the poor guy try to make a living…....... Jerry (in Tucson)


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

He needs to have a ventilation system whether or not. Fire hazard.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

A call to the fire chief/inspector should produce results. He/she has a lot of power.

The reason I ask who was there first was I was wondering if this was like the people who buy a house at the end of a airport runway and complain after they move in know full well there's going to be noise.

Anyway you have to do something.


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## karena02 (Jun 3, 2016)

AlaskaGuy - yes, he was here first, and we were aware of (and fine with) the noise. But when we asked about fumes, they assured us that it wouldn't be a problem, and did attempt to seal it off. But it has become a problem, clearly. I wouldn't have moved in had I known.


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## karena02 (Jun 3, 2016)

Thanks for the input, everyone.

If I can ever get ahold of the landlord, I'm sure he will work to get it sealed, wherever the leak is.

Moving isn't really an option for various reasons, but i also don't want to make the woodshop leave, because it would increase the risk of my landlord having to sell the whole property. Ideally, I just want the HVAC fixed and the woodshop to be run properly - ventilated and without explosives. I don't really think that's too much to ask. I'll look into how/when to have that conversation with the landlord and woodworker.


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## BinghamtonEd (Nov 30, 2011)

I noticed a lot of 'we'. Who else is being subjected to this environment?


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## karena02 (Jun 3, 2016)

Well, my husband and I and 3 kids are here in this half of the building. Directly out of the woodworker's garage door is another business (they share a drive and parking area), and across the street is a residential neighborhood.

Maybe I'll call the city and see what the zoning is on this property… Or…who would I call to find that out?


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## UpstateNYdude (Dec 20, 2012)

Are you kidding me, why are you still letting your kids stay there knowing that the fumes are nauseating you? I'd be getting the hell out of there until someone did something to fix that problem. You seem a little to calm for something that could be causing you and your family long term health effects. I'd be going and finding the god damn landlord that rented me that death trap.


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## karena02 (Jun 3, 2016)

To be clear - the fumes are only bad when the guy does a painting or finishing project, which is once a month or two. When they get bad, we turn off the HVAC, and with windows open there's not a huge issue. BUT - there are days when we need/want AC or heat (which was the case this weekend) and his business shouldn't impede that on our side.

Also - until posting here, I didn't know about the risk of fire or explosion. THAT has me concerned.

I guess maybe I'm calm about it because I've got "frog in the boiler" syndrome - can't tell it's getting hotter when it heats up slowly. Perhaps I'll have to be more diligent about getting this fixed.


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## BinghamtonEd (Nov 30, 2011)

I was worried you were going to say you had kids there. The explosion thing is only one area of concern (albeit a big one, I'm guessing he is not using an explosion-proof fan, either). Even though this might only happen once every month or two, if your adult body is struggling with the fumes, think about how its affecting the kids. As a father of two young kids, I would look for some place, a grandparents house or something, to send the kids while this all gets taken care of, one way or another. This doesn't sound like something that is going to get resolved satisfactorily quickly, if at all. If moving is not an option, I'd get some sort of professional inspector in there to really push the issue. However, you may need to be prepared that they say the area isn't zoned for you to be living there.


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## karena02 (Jun 3, 2016)

Well, my husband talked to him, and I guess the woodworker already got audited (for not providing insurance for his one worker), and also cited for improper ventilation. In theory he is moving soon, which…I guess we will see if that's true, and what sort of trouble that brings us.

Thanks for the input.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

OK it's none of my business so don't have to answer.

What's so attractive about building you're in that you are so reluctant to move from it? Especially under current conditions.


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Okay - to be an advocate on your issues - maybe the half building is in your budget and it would be difficult to move financially. No one on this site could possibly know all of the variables involved in your personal living, financial situation. And it sounds like you've been trying to solve the issue. I also see that you did not realize the potential for fire/explosions, etc. Not everyone knows what these different fumes, poor ventilation can do. The folks on this site know these things because we work with it and know what to do to lessen the possibility of explosions, etc. So we can't just roll our eyes and think you are a bad parent or anything of the sort so please don't take offense at any such suggestions here - if you don't know, you don't know - that's why you ask questions. You've taken the step to get on this site to ask questions and be more informed so that's a great step.

With all of the above said, one spark - big explosion - dead people. Hopefully not anyone you love. Even intermittent inhalation of those fumes are bad for you and the kids. The kids especially can have life long issues from breathing those types of fumes even intermittently. A spark even from static electricity can cause a big boom that you don't want to be involved in. Another thing to keep in mind - if he's been working in that environment himself and does nothing about it - you have to also think about how he disposes of his oily rags. If he's so careless about fumes I would lay even money he has old oily rages lying about. Those rags are very dangerous and are a definite source of spontaneous combustion. So maybe this guy is going to be moving - but what type of business will be moving in?

I'm pretty opinionated on these type of issues - but I'd move before that one spark happens. It simply is not a good situation.

In the meantime however, I hope that you have good smoke detectors in the house AND please make sure you and your family have an emergency evacuation plan in case something terrible does happen.

I hope you can get this situation fixed so that everyone is safe and happy.


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## bbasiaga (Dec 8, 2012)

Fumes from solvents have what is called a permissible exposure limit - essentially the amount you are allowed under OSHA law to be exposed to over a work day or pre-set time limit. Luckily for you, most solvents are very pungent well below their permissible exposure limit. So there is a chance you are just smelling them very strongly but are still OK from an exposure standpont. If your eyes are watering or you are getting sick - on those days you are definitely over the limit.

Its not a good situation, but I just wanted to point out that you are not necessarily in immediate danger every day.

As to the explosion risk, that is harder to tell. but much of the time incandescent bulbs, or the pilot on the furnace and water heater are plenty to set off an explosive atmosphere if it is there. It could still happen, but if there was a visible haze and it didn't happen then, it is probably OK too. Still, an explosion could happen under different conditions. Make sure you open his windows.

Brian


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

there may be permissible limits for exposure but spraying without a booth and proper ventilation is a requirement.

It's not only a liability for him but the owner as well for letting him operate like that.

I mean, what would people think if I was operating a crematorium next door with no ventilation.


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## davezedlee (Feb 22, 2016)

a possible solution, at least temporarily, is to seal up your unit and have fans blowing outside air INTO your unit, creating a positive pressure and keeping all his fumes out of your unit

might be uncomfortable in hotter temperatures, but you'll keep the fumes out

its what i did when my neighbour's pot plants started to bud, and was effective in keeping my entire building from smelling like… budding marijuana


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

Is the air handler inside his shop? I would have to see it but its obviously not sealed well and negative pressure is pulling air from his shop into your return.

Also, what proximity is his paint spraying to the air unit? Can that be moved? Or is he filling up his whole shop with paint spray? (In which case I'd say he's not legal).

If the air handler is on a wall it would be simple to build a closet around it or seal it up.
It it is mounted on the ceiling it will be more difficult.

I would get an HVAC technician out there to look at the situation.

Its a tough situation. On one hand, if he was there first, you can't expect him to leave, but OTOH if he's doing something illegal why should you have to move?

Is he willing to work to alleviate the problem?


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

> a possible solution, at least temporarily, is to seal up your unit and have fans blowing outside air INTO your unit, creating a positive pressure and keeping all his fumes out of your unit
> 
> might be uncomfortable in hotter temperatures, but you ll keep the fumes out
> 
> ...


Had to laugh at this one. You live Colorado or Oregon, right?


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## jmartel (Jul 6, 2012)

> a possible solution, at least temporarily, is to seal up your unit and have fans blowing outside air INTO your unit, creating a positive pressure and keeping all his fumes out of your unit
> 
> might be uncomfortable in hotter temperatures, but you ll keep the fumes out
> 
> ...


Or Washington. You get used to the smell. No big deal anymore.

To the OP, if it's at all feasible with your situation, move. There's nothing good that will come from this.


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## davezedlee (Feb 22, 2016)

> a possible solution, at least temporarily, is to seal up your unit and have fans blowing outside air INTO your unit, creating a positive pressure and keeping all his fumes out of your unit
> 
> might be uncomfortable in hotter temperatures, but you ll keep the fumes out
> 
> ...


actually, i was in Vancouver BC at the time, where every third building had some sort of link to the pot trade

probably still does…


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## dhazelton (Feb 11, 2012)

I don't know where it would be legal (or wise) to have a residence share structure with an industrial workshop. If you are a renter you should move. Your health demands it. If you are just playing a waiting game to see who moves first then you are on your own. If you own the space kick the tenant out.


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