# Copper pipe question



## funchuck (Jan 11, 2010)

Hello,

I know this is a woodworking forum, but I have gotten a lot of helpful advise from here, so I thought I'd ask here.

I had a plumber come out to do some work on our copper water lines and I wasn't sure if he did everything ok. I have watched copper being soldered on tv (This Old House) and he did things differently.

After soldering he dunked the part into a bucket of water, or if he couldn't dunk it, he'd wipe it down with a wet cloth. I wasn't sure if this was standard practice since I hadn't seen it done before.

When he was soldering near a stud, he used a spray bottle to keep the stud moist, then he'd use his flame on the copper… seemed dangerous to me, but nothing caught fire.

After he was done, everything worked with no leaks… should I be worried?

I did bring up my concerns with him, but he said he's been a plumber for 20 years and that I shouldn't worry since he has a 1 year guarantee on all his work.

What do you think? I am especially concerned about the water dunking part since I haven't seen that before.

Thanks,

Charles.


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## Daren (Sep 16, 2007)

I am a licensed plumber, started in 1989. Ran my own shop from '99-2004…before I got into the sawmill biz. He just dunked the pieces so they would cool and he could work with them faster…would you rather he just wait for them to cool enough to handle ? (assuming he was charging by the hour) Water can't hurt a water pipe. Wiping with a wet rag is important to get the extra flux off, flux left on can cause corrosion later.

And don't believe everything you see on This Old House…That would be my response to you if you "Brought up your concerns" to me, as a experienced professional, if you were standing over my shoulder second guessing my work from what you saw on TV.

Hope that helps ?


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## PurpLev (May 30, 2008)

Ive been an electric contractor for several years, and was working with plumbers on remodeling and new construction sites - your description didn't seem unusual, but described what I've seen all the time.


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## funchuck (Jan 11, 2010)

Thanks Daren, that makes sense. I was just surprised to see him dunking the pieces in water after soldering. I wasn't sure if this would change the properties of the metal, sort of like when you heat steel and rapidly cool it to harden it. He wasn't charging by the hour, but that makes sense. I wouldn't want to waste time either.

But yeah, I hope he did not think I was being intrusive by standing over his shoulder. I like doing home improvement/repair, but soldering copper seems too dangerous/risky when it involves your home, so I wanted to watch a pro do it. I figure for the amount he charged ($800 for 2.5 hrs of work), I should at least get to watch and learn. I did try not to be too instrusive, but when you see someone taking a torch to the pipe, which is a few inches from wood, I got very nervous.

PurpLev: Thank you for responding too. I feel better about it. I was worried if the pipe might develop a leak later on due to the rapid cooling that the soldered joint went through.


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## JJohnston (May 22, 2009)

I don't think you have anything to apologize for. Your concerns sound legitimate to me, and for what he was charging, I'd say you're well within your rights to expect satisfactory answers - not smartass comments about you second guessing him.


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## Daren (Sep 16, 2007)

I believe he did get satisfactory answers from his plumber, and a 1 year guarantee on all his work (standard practice). He has nothing to worry about IMO. He got a smartass comment on a woodworking forum from a plumber 1700+ miles away, not the one doing the work…


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## nailbanger2 (Oct 17, 2009)

The price was high, the work was fine. Actually, moistening the stud is something you seldom see, most just put the stud out after it has caught fire. The pipes are always around something flammable.


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## funchuck (Jan 11, 2010)

Thanks guys. I didn't think those comments were smartass comments. Daren, being a plumber himself, identified with the guy I hired and let me know how he must have felt when I was watching him. I did not think about that, although when I questioned him, I wasn't rude or anything. I just asked if it was alright for him to be torching the wood in the house.

I think I shouldn't have asked him about dunking the soldered parts in water. I must admit, that does sound a bit intrusive, but I did not want to deal with having that part leak again.

He didn't seem annoyed or anything though, but maybe because we bought the home service plan from him that day, he was happy to get more money.


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

Funchuck: He was using the water to KEEP the wood from catching on fire. Some guys use water,I always used a wet rag or a tin foil plate for a heat shield. As far as dunking the hot copper, yes it does change the properties of the metal but not enough to hurt anything in that small of a fitting. I did it many a time too.
800 for 2.5 hours seems a bit high. While no one likes someone getting their shirt collar size while they are working, he was probably used to it. Frankly, when you are paying the bill, you are entitled to answers.


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## funchuck (Jan 11, 2010)

I thought the price was bit high, but I've had to deal with flakey contractors/handyman before, and while they usually charge very cheap prices, it is very inconvenient to deal with flakes (especially when you have a leak). He was actually one of the very few who had a 1 year guarantee, and he had free estimates. Other plumbers had no guarantees, or 6 month guarantees and were charging $65 to $100 just to come out for an estimate. I think that my area (los angeles) is more expensive in general, but yeah, those plumbers get paid more than I do!

Actually, I remember a few years ago, my pressure regulator broke and a different plumber quoted $400 to fix it. I declined and went to Home Depot. They had the exact same part for $80, and since it was held in with 2 bolts, I didn't even have to solder. It took me all of 15 minutes to replace it myself!


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## Gofor (Jan 12, 2008)

The technique he used was fine. As for the price, you can thank your State government for a lot of it. California, and particularly the City of Los Angeles has some very high cost education, certification and licensing requirementsfor plumbers, which you pay for as the customer.

Go


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## dmoney (Dec 20, 2009)

I'm no plumber but I usually do the same thing. I've been burnt many times, those copper fittings take awhile to cool off. I have a plumber friend and gave me a 15 min course in how to solder copper fittings once. It really comes in handy.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

I haven't heard of dunking soldered parts in cold water before. Wiping joints with a damp rag is a sign of careful, professional work. Dunking may be done on heavier castings, where the heat may linger long enough to keep the solder molten. Any mishandling of a molten soldered joint may result in a 'cold joint', where the solder looks grainy when it cooled and may ultimately fail. Plumber's solder is 50/50 tin/lead, and has a 'plastic' stage when cooling off.


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

Poopie: Did you know that 50/50 solder has been outlawed? Some idiot decided that the lead in those joints was bad for you and you could get lead poisoning by drinking the water. Thank our "friends" in the EPA, they know what's best for us!!! I really don't know how our forefathers survived without them.
Soldering is not rocket science..the key is clean and dry.


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## LateNightOwl (Aug 13, 2009)

Third generation union plumber (retired) here…
I always wiped my joints with a DRY rag while the solder was still soft. It makes a better joint and a better looking joint. You wouldn't want to immediately wipe a freshly sweated joint with a WET rag. That could mess up the joint, not to mention create a very hot steam that could burn you. It only takes a few seconds, however, for the solder to "set" and the heat to dissipate along the length of the pipe. It would do no harm at all to dunk it or cool it with water after waiting just a few seconds.

As far as spraying the stud with water before he put flame to the pipe, that's a decent precaution to take to prevent charing the wood or starting a fire. Nothing wrong with that at all.

FWIW, 50/50 solder was banned in California in the late 70's. This leads to another thought on why your plumber was dunking/spraying the joints. I believe 95/5 (95% tin, 5% antimony) is still the current standard in California. It takes quite a bit of heat to get 95/5 to flow properly. If the pipe gets too hot (glowing red), it is annealed-made softer-and a quick quenching in cold water will harden it again. Although this practice is more common when brazing, it might be something of what he was thinking/doing.

P.S. If there are no leaks on the joints now, chances are extremely slim that one will develop. No, you shouldn't be worried.


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## Knothead62 (Apr 17, 2010)

Daren is correct. My father used to do the same thing.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

Some valves and other devices with rubber or plastic internal parts should indeed be quenched after heating to protect the internals. 
The thing about solder that has always fascinated me is how an alloy made of tin and lead can have a melting point LOWER than the melting point of either tin or lead! Having been a wave solder technician for several years, I know my body is probably full of the stuff. I'm mostly familiar with 63/37 electronics-grade solders, which was preferred over other ratios in the electronics industry because of 'eutectics'...the absence of a 'plastic' zone as molten solder cools down. If I built a home today, there would be NO solder anywhere. Though, I'd consider iron pipe as an upgrade, I don't like plastic pipe either, and it's probably even more hideous, chemically speaking.


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

Poopie: I retired after 32 years in the Plumbers and Pipefitters. I agree with you on the plastic, I think the jury is still out on that.


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## Daren (Sep 16, 2007)

I too was union trained, Local #65 (Decatur Illinois)...same as my dad and his dad, 3rd generation here also.


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## rimfire7891 (Jun 15, 2010)

Hi guys,
Think the plumber just wanted to cool the parts down that he was soldering, quickly. There is no harm done to copper by quenching it in water. Mary is correct the if you heat up to dull red and either quench it quickly in water or leave it to cool slowly hard copper is annealed.( Cooling it quickly will *not* harden it) The way to re-harden it again is to work it. This means hammering or bending it will work harden it. The long straight sections of type M or K cooper pipe are hard drawn. They will not bend easily and if you do bend them they will probably kink and maybe crack. A slow gentle curve is about all you get. Where as annealed copper tube can bent in a pretty tight circle in the smaller sizes.
As you work cooper it hardens, you anneal it to soften it again, cooling it in water just speeds up the process. Your plumber just wanted to speed up the process when he dunked it in water, unless he was trying to tweak a bend to line something up. I don't think the pipe would have got hot enough to anneal it very much.
You can anneal type M copper pipe if you want to put an S curve in to go past an obstruction. It take a fair bit of heat from a small propane torch as copper is such a good conductor The annealing process does weaken the pipe, the tensile strength of soft cooper is as low as 20000 PSI for soft copper to as high as 52000 PSI tensile strength for hard cooper. Grades are soft, 1/8 hard, 1/4 hard 1/2 hard 3/4 hard and full hard for sheet stock.
Go try heating some hard copper, quench it, and see for yourself, bend it back and forward a few times and it will stiffen up.

Thanks jb


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## funchuck (Jan 11, 2010)

Wow, thanks everyone for all the info!

poopiekat: What you say is interesting. If a house uses no soldering, then what kind of piping do you use? Would they use compression fittings? I also saw this type of glue for copper at Lowe's, but I have my doubts about it.


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