# What do Biscuit Joints do?



## gdaveg (Aug 1, 2020)

What do biscuit joints do? I don't see them adding any strength to a joint above a well prepped and glued joint.

Maybe they would add to help alignment during clamping.

I don't use them currently. Maybe add to my charcuterie boards to help prevent vertical slippage during clamping.

Who uses them and in what circumstances?

Not trying to start a fight, but I see guys cutting biscuits joint pockets and then gluing.


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## CWWoodworking (Nov 28, 2017)

In a glued up panel, they don't add much except alignment.

In other applications, they add a lot of strength.

Today I used them to make a 10' long plywood panel.


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## Scallywags (Feb 2, 2021)

Yes, they are for aligning pieces during glue up. One potential application is on panels where you want your seams to stay aligned and not float on the glue during clamping. I think you can get around using them fairly easily with clamping calls. I think what I've learned over the year is to worry about getting things as flat and square as they need to be, and stressing about square and flat as a matter of principle or pride. Probably because the guy who taught me a lot of WW'ing runs a production custom furniture shop and while he's fanatical about quality, time is money and there's no line for 'moral victories' on the P&L statement. 

I think the applications where they are more useful is not necessarily on big panels, but on maintaining alignment on smaller pieces, like say a long skirt down a table top that really needs to line up on both ends with the legs. I don't know, maybe a dumb example. Basically any application where a shift during glue up could cause a real headache later.

I have a biscuit jointer. Somewhere…


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## Kirk650 (May 8, 2016)

I use mine for panel alignment, but still use cauls and clamps. The biscuits are very helpful, but still allow a little creep and misalignment, hence the cauls.


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## RickSanchez (Aug 9, 2020)

They make guys feel better during a glue up. I personally have never had a use for them. Just build a jig that keeps your panels flat and glue it up.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

Especially with the tilting fences biscuits can be used to make joints that are otherwise kind of complex to do. To some extent these days I think people in small shops are using pocket holes instead but there are enough downsides to pocket holes that biscuits still have a place imo. You can use them if you want to glue up panels. Some folks think cauls are better and perhaps quicker. Your approach may be defined in part by what kind of table you have for glue ups.

They can add considerable strength to end grain to face grain butt joints. Certainly more than glue alone and in angled joinery they can prevent parts slipping around.


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## Jim Jakosh (Nov 24, 2009)

Biscuits register the two surfaces so they are lined up during a glue up. Without them, an edge can rise out of line with the other side when you are busy tightening clamps and can cause you a lot of sanding afterwards. Most helpful with long joints. Cauls keep the surface in alignment too, but I don have any and just use clamps and the biscuits. I have DeWalt biscuit slot cutter but it never seems to line up perfectly so I use a big Ryobi router with a slot cutter and they fit perfect every time using #20 biscuits..

The rep from Franklin says you don't have to glue the biscuits in, but I always do

Cheers, Jim


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## LeeRoyMan (Feb 23, 2019)

I like biscuits mostly for face frames, gluing panels, interior shelves…sometimes.


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## woodbutcherbynight (Oct 21, 2011)

I use them for alignment during glue ups. Or in some difficult to reach areas on a refurb / repair.

Definitely give the link LeeRoy posted a look see.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> I use them for alignment during glue ups. Or in some difficult to reach areas on a refurb / repair.
> 
> Definitely give the link LeeRoy posted a look see.
> 
> - woodbutcherbynight


What link?


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

I mostly use them for attaching face frames to cabinet boxes.

Here are some other possible uses.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=uses+for+a+biscuit+joiner


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

They are really good for the miters on frames.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

seems this topic has been beaten too death here many times,if you dont see any value you probably dont need one.


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## GR8HUNTER (Jun 13, 2016)

i like mine with gravy sausage and eggs :<)))))))))


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## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

> They are really good for the miters on frames.
> 
> - Fred Hargis


+2.. good for alignment for glueing panels for those that need assistance…


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## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

> seems this topic has been beaten too death here many times,if you dont see any value you probably dont need one.
> 
> - pottz


As long as there are new woodworkers there will always be a repeat in these type questions..

Same way I the residential and commercial shops, your always training someone…


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

> i like mine with gravy sausage and eggs :<)))))))))
> 
> - GR8HUNTER


True story: I went into HD many years ago (probably 25 or more) and was looking for biscuits. Skippy Stockboy walked up and asked if he could help me find anything. I said I was looking for some biscuits. He grinned/laughed and pointed to the door. "I think Burger King across the street has some".


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## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

They use to sell them $20 for a 1000. Not sure how much they are today…


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## woodbutcherbynight (Oct 21, 2011)

> They use to sell them $20 for a 1000. Not sure how much they are today…
> 
> - JackDuren


$50 for 1000….... has gotten crazy in last few years…


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## pintodeluxe (Sep 12, 2010)

They are useful for making end grain to long grain joints, as in making web frames for dressers and case goods.
Plenty strong and quicker than M&T.

I also use a biscuit cutter to make slots for locking file drawer and desk hardware. The locking tab fits perfectly into a #20 biscuit slot.


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## bigblockyeti (Sep 9, 2013)

I use them as floating tenons, way cheaper than dominos.


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## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

> They use to sell them $20 for a 1000. Not sure how much they are today…
> 
> - JackDuren
> 
> ...


Looking I saw Grizzly had #20/1000 for $24. Not sure on shipping. Usually they will have items on Ebay..

Problem now is do I want to store 1000 biscuits this late in my evaporating career.

$25 in fishing hooks makes more sense to me.lol


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

On top of use to aid in panel alignment, which is the reason it was invented in the first place, Lamello also offers several other types of biscuits including some that are screwed in place and can be used for knock-down or assemble later joints.


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## JIMMIEM (Feb 5, 2016)

> i like mine with gravy sausage and eggs :<)))))))))
> 
> - GR8HUNTER
> 
> ...


I asked for Bear Claws and was told to try a bakery.
I asked if HD had Shellac in a 3 Lb cut. Worker bee said "let's go weigh the can".


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## JIMMIEM (Feb 5, 2016)

> Biscuits register the two surfaces so they are lined up during a glue up. Without them, an edge can rise out of line with the other side when you are busy tightening clamps and can cause you a lot of sanding afterwards. Most helpful with long joints. Cauls keep the surface in alignment too, but I don have any and just use clamps and the biscuits. I have DeWalt biscuit slot cutter but it never seems to line up perfectly so I use a big Ryobi router with a slot cutter and they fit perfect every time using #20 biscuits..
> 
> The rep from Franklin says you don t have to glue the biscuits in, but I always do
> 
> ...


The Franklin rep you refer to….was that Franklin adhesives/glues?
I'm making a face frame wall cabinet. It's 36" Tall X 36" wide X 13" Deep. It's 3/4" plywood and I've cut biscuit slots to align/attach the top and bottom. I'm not sure if I want to trust the biscuits alone so I'm going to add screws. I'm working alone and it's kind of awkward to put together. If I could use the biscuits WITHOUT glue it would be a lot easier to assemble…..that's why I'm interested in the franklin rep's comment.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

The sole reason biscuits exist is so people can argue about whether or not they add strength to a joint.


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## splintergroup (Jan 20, 2015)

It all started after The Norm began using them in addition to a few brads to hold it all together until the dollop of glue dries. Norm has sold more biscuits than Bisquick.

Actually I'm in the "use for panel alignment and face frame construction" camp. Although I only grab for them maybe twice a year.

The cutter does make for easy slots in "Z" clip applications for table tops.


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## LeeRoyMan (Feb 23, 2019)

> The sole reason biscuits exist is so people can argue about whether or not they add strength to a joint.
> 
> - SMP


There is no argument at all, I'll show you.

Take 4 pieces of 3/4" poplar 4×16 (2 sets)

Glue 2 biscuits in 2 of them (1st set) and no biscuits in the other 2 (2nd set)
Stack them on top of each other edge to edge.

Now pick up the 2 with no biscuits. 
Then pick up the 2 with biscuits.

Which set lifted the bottom piece with it?

Conclusion, biscuits add strength.

Now, whether it's negligible is a different argument.


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## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

> The sole reason biscuits exist is so people can argue about whether or not they add strength to a joint.
> 
> - SMP


I don't know about strength. Never used them for that…

We could argue, biscuits, domino's, dowels all day. That's what woodworkers who have nothing to do,do…


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## LeeRoyMan (Feb 23, 2019)

> The sole reason biscuits exist is so people can argue about whether or not they add strength to a joint.
> 
> - SMP
> 
> ...


You say that like it's a bad thing, yet you have the time to come here and say it. 
I guess you have nothing to do either?

Me, I'm staining and lacquering a study wall unit. Lots of down time between drying and moving on.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> they proboably do some pretty poggers stuff
> 
> - littleLarry


can you translate that please ?


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## bondogaposis (Dec 18, 2011)

I use them for making laminate counter tops with hardwood edging. I feel they add strength to the particle board to hardwood joint and the alignment is a plus as well.


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## woodbutcherbynight (Oct 21, 2011)

> I use them for making laminate counter tops with hardwood edging. I feel they add strength to the particle board to hardwood joint.
> 
> - bondogaposis


Another good use…


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## sbarlin (Sep 13, 2016)

I remember years ago Norm built a pie safe using biscuits. I was just starting out in woodworking and bought the plan. I made the pie safe probably 20 years ago. We still have it. My wife uses it frequently. Still solid.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

> I use them for making laminate counter tops with hardwood edging. I feel they add strength to the particle board to hardwood joint and the alignment is a plus as well.
> 
> - bondogaposis


It was the introduction of particle board into furniture making that led the founder of Lamello to invent them for edge joining. Before then, he used tongue and grooves but that was a lot more trouble and I seem to recall reading that he thought the T&G weakened the PB.


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## LittleBlackDuck (Feb 26, 2016)

With so many replies, I probably missed a lot of the pros and cons… however…

I primarily used them for alignment (especially for bevels) and strengthening mitres.

However, after surrendering to the darkside and forking out for a Fe*$*tool *Domino*, their breakdown hardware adds a new dimension to construction… and can impersonate an upmarket biscuit (with imported tea and a slice of lemon).
I suppose all the other *Domino* tragics are too busy recovering the cost to read this post… I'm seldom busy… between drinks.

Just my $2.67 worth.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

Image result for the invention of the biscuit joiner
The original hand-held biscuit joiner invented by Karl Steiner in 1968 for the system he invented in his Swiss cabinet shop in 1955. ... Hermann Steiner invented the Lamello biscuit joining system in his cabinet shop in Switzerland.

https://www.woodworkingnetwork.com/news/woodworking-industry-news/50-years-biscuit-joinery


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## gdaveg (Aug 1, 2020)

Thanks folks, just wanted to shake the branches.

I was a structural engineer for 40 plus years. If the joint is well constructed, clean, glue is properly applied, clamping pressure adequate and cured properly nothing strength-wise is added by a biscuit. Biscuit joints require all the above items.

But joint alignment, special wood products like Particle Board can benefit from biscuits as commenters have said.

Sometimes I am having joints slide during assembly from clamping forces and am considering them more for special situations.

Both joints without and with biscuits work if done correctly.

Again thanks for the commentary.


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## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

> The sole reason biscuits exist is so people can argue about whether or not they add strength to a joint.
> 
> - SMP
> 
> ...


Not anymore I retired/disabled since summer 2019. Yea I got all day to discuss it like the rest of the hobby guys, unless I'm fishing, mowing, honey do's aND yes i have a biscut jointer….

Plus now instead of biscuits for furniture pieces I make pancakes in the morning for my grand daughter I raise. More fun than furniture. Thou she can be as demanding.. Lol


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## LeeRoyMan (Feb 23, 2019)

Fishing and pancakes are good, 
Grand baby even better.
Demanding, maybe, but wouldn't have it any other way.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> They make guys feel better during a glue up. I personally have never had a use for them. Just build a jig that keeps your panels flat and glue it up.
> 
> - RickSanchez


Lol, how do you know how I feel??


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## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

> I use them for making laminate counter tops with hardwood edging. I feel they add strength to the particle board to hardwood joint and the alignment is a plus as well.
> 
> - bondogaposis


They actually might and might help hobbyist with alignment, but we never added them and never had a front edge fall off in 30 years that I'm aware of.

Mine ate glued on without a problem..


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## therealSteveN (Oct 29, 2016)

> i like mine with gravy sausage and eggs :<)))))))))
> 
> - GR8HUNTER


Best answer so far Tony, you win a wooden biscuit, yummmmmm chewy….


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## therealSteveN (Oct 29, 2016)

> The rep from Franklin says you don t have to glue the biscuits in, but I always do
> 
> Cheers, Jim
> 
> - Jim Jakosh


Jim the reason they tell you that is they are tired of people giving them a raft of SStuff. when a dood using a biscuit fills the crevice with Titebond glue, which goes all suction like on a thirsty biscuit, and then that #*^%$!$ biscuit is seen by passing orbiters from space telegraphed through the wood where it has expanded that joint to gigantic proportions. The problem Franklin has is the dood blames the glue, not the biscuit.

Now if you said you were gluing up 8/4 stock, he would smile, and say glue away. 1/2" is disastrous, and 3/4 is iffy, depending on species. I wouldn't use them on plywood myself, if someone wants to, your picnic, your rules.

This sad tale is a guy who probably did OK, till he planed down the stock?? Hard to tell, but I wouldn't use them on thin stock.

https://www.highlandwoodworking.com/whenbiscuitjointsgobad.aspx

In the few cases I use them, I just pop em in dry, and allow the glued edge to be enough. Remember it's an alignment tool. The glued edge will be stronger than the wood once dry.


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## stevejack (Apr 5, 2020)

Yes alignment for sure BUT I have noticed when I use them on panel glue ups over time the panel never separates. Years ago I had a few wide panel glue up pull apart! Never with them


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> Yes alignment for sure BUT I have noticed when I use them on panel glue ups over time the panel never separates. Years ago I had a few wide panel glue up pull apart! Never with them
> 
> - stevejack


Properly done glued up wide panels should never fail just because you used biscuits. There was something else wrong.


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## Jimothy (Oct 29, 2015)

They are mostly used for alignment when edge gluing panels. They can offer some reinforcement to a butt joint, but they seem to be a less good version of a floating/loose tenon such as the domino. Honestly for reinforcement, just use dowels.


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## tvrgeek (Nov 19, 2013)

Alignment mostly. They do add some surface area and can be used in thinner stock than dowels or Festool thing-a-ma-jobs that are the current dandy. Quick is a major attribute.

They are compressed and designed to swell to a nice snug fit when used with a water based glue. Resin or PVA. If some "expert" says not to glue them, smile and walk away.

Basically, modern glue is stronger than the wood, so no joint should fail if assembled properly.


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## paulLumberJock (Aug 5, 2020)

I've never had a problem with biscuits distorting the panel , like that highlandhardware article says.
That said, I don't bathe the joint in glue, just brush a little glue on. I do let it sit to dry for at least a full day.
I have done it on 5/8 inch panels, it works fine for me.

Biscuits have lots of uses. I have a domino too.. Biscuits are a lot less expensive than dominos, and in some cases, you just don't need a domino. Sometimes the extra "slop" a biscuit gives you for alignment is useful. 
I used to use dominos to attach fixed shelves when making plywood carcasess.. however, sometimes the fit is just too tight, even with cauls, it's difficult to get everything to fit tight.. I now use dominos just for floating tennons (which is what they were designed for).. those are a lot easier to clamp for a tight joint.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

I have never had success with a biscuit joiner. I would use them for a panel, but one surface would always stand proud of the adjoining panel by a few thousands; enough to feel when running your nail across the joint. The joiner I use is an old Porter Cable joiner.


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## EdWeber (Jun 17, 2021)

A biscuit joint is simply a floating tenon and can be used in all the same ways, strength, alignment, etc. The size/s and shape make it especially useful when using sheet goods and thin stock.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> Yes alignment for sure BUT I have noticed when I use them on panel glue ups over time the panel never separates. Years ago I had a few wide panel glue up pull apart! Never with them
> 
> - stevejack


So, tell us how to prep you edges for glued up panels. I've never had a panel separate with or without biscuits. I suspect you edges weren't well mated, and you had to use clamp pressure to pull the edges together.


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## mtnwalton (Aug 4, 2015)

To give an example of a different use, i used micro biscuits (not sure of the name), once on 3/8" bending plywood. Needed an additional 8" on each end to compete an inset panel on a working chariot for a stage production.
Also have used biscuits for assembling long sections of flats (theatrical).


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