# We've GOT to do something about Saw Files...and we can



## FenceFurniture (Oct 28, 2011)

G'day all

I have been running a thread over here in Australia, trying to get to the bottom of why Saw Files are so lousy these days (with a very few exceptions) and why it is so hard to buy good ones that will last more than a few strokes.

My research has been exhaustive, but is not yet finished. Currently I am receiving deliveries of various files from various suppliers from all over the world. *What a sorry looking bunch they are so far! * These will be sent to three testers for evaluation, and it will be a "blind" test, as i will be grinding off the logos and labels. I will also be chemically sharpening a couple of duplicate files in Citric Acid to see if there is any reality to the myth that a new file can be further sharpened better than as supplied from the manufacturer.

*I do NOT expect these tests to go very well at all.*

And this is why - these a pics of a brand new, never used once, currently purchased file from a LEADING MANUFACTURER:

*This pic shows the poor grinding of the blank:*










*Which leeds to teeth being formed like this* (it's supposed to be a Single Cut tooth pattern, but looks more like a Double Cut):










*That leads to potential fracture points of the edge teeth:*










*Do they look any good to you????*

I have been in consultation with 15 of the world's top Saw guys, and they are right behind this project.

Even if it emerges that there are one or two brands that are still worthwhile (and I suspect I know which brands they will be), the files that are currently being made are NOTHING like what they used to be. The most important thing to note is that the taper has been almost removed completely from Taper Files, with only the last 10-20% of the length of the file being tapered.

*So, I NEED YOUR HELP! I have started an online petition to gather as many signatures as I can.* This data will be presented to a manufacturer (I have two in mind) in an effort to once more go back to the quality saw files of the not so distant past.

You can sign the petition at the following address (it takes just a few seconds, but you can leave a comment as well - please do):
*PETITION TO SAW FILE MANUFACTURERS*

This might seem a bit radical, but I have just recently seen the power of a petition from that site. We have a radio presenter (Shock Jock) in Australia who is a disgrace to the planet. With a petition he was taken off air (for two months), and all his sponsors deserted him. *He even had to hand back his Merc within a week or Mercedes Benz would have repossessed it - true story - big national news here.*

A petition is a powerful tool, but it requires your support.

We could do a bit of networking with this - if you talk about this petition on your website or blog and provide a link to it we can make it grow into something that simply cannot be ignored. You can also link it to any other forums that you frequent.

Best regards
Brett


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

Done.


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## Buckethead (Apr 14, 2013)

I'm not an aficionado so I won't comment on any technical aspects of this issue, but what I do see here is an opportunity for a group of like minded enthusiasts to take market share.

Our throw away economy has nearly run its course. Quality must come back into the market. Why insist others bring that quality? Why not take this opportunity to provide that quality and earn a profit as well?

I have not seen any discussion about the ready availability of quality saw files, but I've seen several just like this.

There is a demand. There must be a price point which that demand will support. It seems the larger companies have not reconciled the two.

Maybe look into becoming a provider yourselves? ( or maybe, our throw away culture won't support the price point needed to supply the quality files?)


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## terryR (Jan 30, 2012)

Petition signed.

Yep, if I had capital to invest, I'd make my own files. This disposible society isn't working well…seen the national deficit lately? Making a quality tool takes little more natural resources, uses the same amount of electricity and man hours, produces the same amount of waste and hydrocarbons, but saves all the above since the tool lasts longer, fewer are needed to be made.


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## FenceFurniture (Oct 28, 2011)

There is a much, much easier solution, and I have a cunning plan my Lords.

I just need hard data (signatures on a petition) to get it happening, I reckon. (can't tell you everything all at once now, can I?


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

Love me some cunning plans. Thread watched.


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## Wally331 (Nov 8, 2012)

Signed. Maybe we could get lie-nielsen to invest in some file making tools


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

I like the way Wally's thinking.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

I signed. I'm thinking the current 58 won't do it. Ate you putting it out to the other forums?


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## FenceFurniture (Oct 28, 2011)

Sure am Don. It was always going to be 58 at some stage, even if it becomes 500 (which I think would be a good number, given the niche market) so don't despair - spread the word. Email your buddies, yadda, yadda

Forums in mind are Woodnet & Sawmill Ck, and it's already on talkFestool. I had a look at some UK forums, but there is little chatter about Saw Files, so motivating them could be tricky (or nigh on impossible, given the geography 

Any other suggestions?


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## Stephenw (Nov 14, 2011)

I really don't think most companies care.

I think companies like Apex tool group moved production to Mexico, Brazil, and China purely to maximize profit.

They are looking at the next balance sheet and their bonus check, not the long term.

http://www.apextoolgroup.com/brands-faceting


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## FenceFurniture (Oct 28, 2011)

Stephen, I'm not talking about big companies doing the manufacturing - I won't bother with them for a moment - it was them that got us into this situation, so I hardly see the point in rewarding poor behaviour.

If a suitable current supply can't be found (and I'm dead keen to see something from Tsubosan) then I will first be presenting the data to Liogier in France (who already make a range of "nearly there" saw files - but you won't find them on the net, or anywhere else).

If they can't be persuaded to make an extra €100k or more per year then I'll go to Honauer in Switzerland. They currently do not have a range of saw files, and are willing to custom make to a standard of excellence.

It may transpire that even if the Tsubosan's are good that another supplier is required because of language difficulties etc. To show what I mean, these are some quotes from their website:

"Conventionally, as the tip of the blade is processed by electrolytic polishing (PAT) and the sharp blade of the knife-like material is *processed in advance*, the *concave part bosom is deep and suitable* for the material that is easy to cause clog like stiffening plastic, bakelite, wood and other light metals."

"It the industry first, we make both ends type file surface, made easy to guarantee the* balance of suffering*."

I am also going to research if there would be any benefit in using Chrome Steel or not. I should think the additional cost would be irrelevant, as the cost of the steel would be a very small component in such small files.


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## FenceFurniture (Oct 28, 2011)

I posted this news on the petition site today:

Thank you all for signing the Saw Files Petition.

I had a very interesting talk with one of the manufacturers in France last night. They already produce a range of "nearly there" Saw files (I knew this), and really only need some adjustments & include some Double Extra Slim Files to have a TOP NOTCH RANGE.

The main thing they need to correct is the taper, and corner radius consistency on the smallest files (sometimes excellent, sometimes no good). I have developed other tools with this manufacturer, and the latest is their new range of Floats for Planes and Joinery. This will increase to a range of 12-15 Floats in the coming months.

The most important thing to come out of the conversation is that they will be very responsive to public demand (i.e. Petition Signatures).

YOU CAN HELP EVEN MORE:
post a link to this petition & give it some publicity on your Woodwork Forum(s) of choice, or your own Website/Blog.

PLEASE - SPREAD THE WORD - WE ARE STARTING TO WIN ALREADY!

Regards
Brett


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## Brit (Aug 14, 2010)

*Brett* - I somehow missed this thread until Marv over on Woodnet pointed it out. Thank you for taking the initiative on this. I also feel very strongly about it and thoroughly support your efforts. Petition signed.

I'd like to give you a suggestion. If you have a video camera, record a 5 minute video stating your case. It will spread like wild fire on YouTube. I uploaded a video on saw sharpening 3 weeks ago and it has already had over 3000 views.

If you need any help editing/posting the video, please let me know. I'd be happy to help/post it on YouTube.

By the way, leave the UK woodworkers to me. )


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## FenceFurniture (Oct 28, 2011)

Excellent Brit!


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

Amen!


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## Brit (Aug 14, 2010)

I'm going to do my best to get Paul Sellers on board. He has been very vocal on his blog about the quality of saw files these days and he has a big following on his blog. Hopefully he will get behind it too.

http://paulsellers.com/2012/05/saw-files-revisited-bahco-raises-the-bar/
http://paulsellers.com/2012/05/nicholson-saw-files-proving-ever-faulty/
http://paulsellers.com/2013/01/nicholson-saw-files-still-no-good/
http://paulsellers.com/2013/03/saw-files-saved-edges-and-recycling-files/


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## terryR (Jan 30, 2012)

Amen, brother, Andy!


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

A(bloody)Men Andy!!


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## YanktonSD (Jun 21, 2011)

So there must be a strong case for finding old files that were manufactured 30+ years ago that are in good shape? right?


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## FenceFurniture (Oct 28, 2011)

YanktonSD, yes that's right, but the problem is that there just ain't enough to go around - get 'em while you can. That's why we have to get something decent made from now on.

Furthermore, with the continuing resurgence in Hand Tools (of all types) people just entering the Saw File market won't be aware of the situation with the currently produced files, and will just purchase whatever they find. Then they'll start to wonder why their filing skills are so poor because they've probably just made the saw worse than it ever was.

NOS files are only for the chosen few, and supply is getting harder and harder to find. It's not easy. One of the biggest problems that I see with Ebay sellers is that they have little to no knowledge (by and large) of the incredibly intricate little tool that they are selling. It is FAR more complex than even some experts realise (and I'm not at all being critical there). It might be "just a file fer cryin' out loud", but there is a lot more to Saw Files than Engineer's files - a helluva lot more.

I doubt very much that Ebay sellers know too much about:
*Single Cut
*Double Cut
*Cut 2
**Proper* Tapering (and why it's necessary)
*tpi verses ppi
*etc etc

This has the effect of a newbie buying some files, stuffing the saw and giving up because they think the job is stratospherically out of their skills range, when in fact it should not be.

Here's a really minute detail that surfaced only yesterday:
Old Saw Files still have faces that are untoothed for the last 10mm (1/2" close enough) of the toe, just like the current ones do. However, the edges of some the old files are toothed right to the tip. I had seen this and thought that it must have just been easier to produce them that way, with the machines of the time.

As it turns out, the corner toothing is there to whisk away any metal filings in the gullet at the start of each stroke so that everything is nice and clean for the next pass. As I say it is really fine detail, but it's all of these little things that add to make a GREAT tool, not just an average tool.

Cheers
Brett


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## Brit (Aug 14, 2010)

...and apart from anything else, don't our children have a right to sharpen their own saws too? If we don't jump up and down about this now on their behalf, the skill will die with us.


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## terryR (Jan 30, 2012)

^That's my fear, Andy.

I now have a dozen hand saws that I use…whenever the tempting bandsaw doesn't entice me…One already needs a touch up, and others will, too, later this year. No way am I gonna keep paying shipping just to get a saw re- sharpened when a $6 file and some practice can solve my problem.

I predict with the increasing number of baby boomers now retiring, hand tool usage will increase exponentially in the next 10 years. We NEED a manufacturer who will make high quailty files now, so the younger generation can have saw files put in their hands now to learn…And skilled ol timers to teach them.

Or do we all have to buy new miter saws with replaceable (disposable) blades?


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

No giving up in this guy. Ill be the next generations pied piper as Andy has been to me.

There's a growing resentment among my generation (im 33) to the disposable society of throw aways. Ive bought the disposable stuff before and now that im a bit older and wiser (not really) i wont make that mistake any more. Its gone for my lawn mower, leaf blower, string trimmer, appliances, and of course, my tools. With the price of living so high for people my age I cant afford to keep throwing things out when they break or become less sharp. I know ive got a bit of "old soul" in me and I intend on keeping those values alive, hopefully with my son.

Google cant sharpen a plane, chisel, or saw now can it?


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## terryR (Jan 30, 2012)

I wouldn't discount Google's abilities, Stef. Maybe someone at the NSA will catch on to this thread and help us out!

No politics.


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## Brit (Aug 14, 2010)

One thing I have learnt about the internet is that 'crowdsourcing' really can work. If enough people feel strongly about something, no matter what part of the globe they're situated, there is a good chance that someone will sit up and listen, especially when you have someone as dedicated and capable as Brett at the helm.

Brett was kind enough to share some of his preliminary designs and thoughts with me privately and I have to say that I am extremely impressed.

Really it is very simple. We can either do nothing in which case we will continue to go backwards.










We can halfheartedly moan about the quality.










We can leave it to today's file manufacturers to tell us what we need.










Or we can put our heads together and make a difference.










Why except less than the best experience?










LET'S GIVE A CRAP!!!


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## Brit (Aug 14, 2010)

Only 11 more petitionees needed to reach 300, although 500 is the magic number folks. Please add your support if you care about the availability of quality tools.


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## SASmith (Mar 22, 2010)

Done


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## Brit (Aug 14, 2010)

Cheers Scott.


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## stonedlion (Jan 12, 2011)

Signed.


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## rfusca (May 9, 2013)

Signed.


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## CL810 (Mar 21, 2010)

AMEN Brother Andy! Aaaaamen, aaaaaaaamen, amen, amen!

Say it again brother!


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## Brit (Aug 14, 2010)

You guys are on Fire.

God bless America!!!


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

And god bless the Queen!


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## Brit (Aug 14, 2010)

Got your files yet Stef?


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)




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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

This week Andy! Hoping for around wednesday. The distributor put their order in on Friday.


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## Brit (Aug 14, 2010)

That photo just says it all as far as I'm concerned Stef. BabyStef is counting on you and we're right behind you buddy.


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## Brit (Aug 14, 2010)

303 supporters now. WOW! Only 197 needed to reach our target of 500.

*CAN WE DO IT? YES WE CAN!!!*


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## Brit (Aug 14, 2010)

182 to go.


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## Brit (Aug 14, 2010)

Some more information from Brett the petitioner:

By now, I guess you are aware of my goal - to get proper saw files made once more. This is being done in collaboration with people who really know what they are talking about (I'm a novice).

There are two distinct, and fairly evenly split camps on the vitues of a taper amongst these 15 experts. Those who want it back (as it used to be) and those who struggle to see the benefit. It comes down to personal preference, as Nicholson reflected in their 1942 Catalogue, and I quote:

"Handsaw Blunt Files are frequently preferred to Handsaw Taper Files by carpenters and other EXPERT saw filers for sharpening handsaws with 60° teeth. They are parallel in width and thickness but their tooth construction is identical with Handsaw Taper Files. Edges set and cut to file the gullets between the saw teeth."

So, there has always been two camps. We should not forget a couple of very important points that are supremely relevant:
1. The were no power saws in those days, so saw filing was critically important, and was done by every professional woodworker on an almost daily basis (particularly here in Oz where they were using ultra hard timbers for housing construction during the MASSIVE housing boom after ww2)
2. The situation is now reversed so that most pros use power saws with TC tipped teeth, and it is primarily amateur woodworkers who are doing the saw filing. Only a few of this group can class themselves as "experts".
What we can glean from that is that a parallel file is ONLY for experts, and so by default, a taper file must make things easier, or more reliable, in some way for the non-expert.

One of the collaborators is Mark Aylward (aka "Claw Hama" over here). He has been classically trained in the art of filing TWICE in two apprenticeships, and these days he is a professional woodworker. Mark is also an excellent lateral thinker (as Tradesmen tend to be). He just wants to get the job done.

His thoughts on the taper are as follows:
The taper serves several purposes as I have been told and taught over the years from my Grandfather, school teachers and reading material etc.

1. By placing the small tapered end in the gullet you can see the teeth, angles etc clearly before starting your stroke.

2. A constant even taper allows you to push through the full length of the stroke and keep even cutting pressure on the file and consequently the teeth. You don't want a shoulder at some point along the way to change or alter your nice steady flow of your cut.

3. Even if filed badly there is still a good chance you will get a (leading) cutting edge on your tooth with the small built in fleam from the angle on the file. Even a Rip saw can commonly have 4° fleam, so 5° ish with the angle of the file. This small amount of fleam on a Rip saw is to help keep your saw cut clean and not too furry. Also once you have sharpened and set your saw you should do a light run down the edges with an oil or diamond stone to get rid of any little burrs or edges that may catch in your kerf.

All this is still on the side of the tooth on a rip saw when most/all of the cutting is done on the pitch/tip of the tooth with a Rip saw (as you all know) The angle of attack on this is adjusted with your rake angle. The tip of the tooth with a 4° fleam will have a slight angle across it but if you look at a lot of the high tech circular saw blades these days they have exactly that also. Shouldn't make much difference one way or the other to your hand saw. (only my humble opinion).

In other words, as you start from the toe, by keeping constant force in the push, the file gradually begins removing metal on the way through, so the taper compensates for this ever increasing gullet width (microscopically) and so there is always constant contact and the same pressure being applied.

Of course I accept, as does Mark, that different people will have different positions on some of these finer points (e.g. fleam).

So, what is meant by a proper taper?

Here is a picture of three files. The middle one is from Claw Hama (so we don't get our Marks confused). The two either side are a Grobet "Swiss" and an F.Dick and they were both delivered to me in the last week or so.

The middle file is a Wiltshire Austalia made around 1940-1950, and is Mark's favourite file by far (although he can't use it forever).










I'll have a bit more to say about the Grobet & F.Dick, but for the moment let's concentrate on the taper. Ok, ok, they have no taper to concentrate on, so let's move on.

I think we can accept that Claw's 1940 Wiltshire is the benchmark for taper shape. With that in mind I have measured the taper more thoroughly, dividing it into eight 10mm sections down the 80mm toothed area, and this shows that that taper is a very gentle curve, not a straight line. I did separate measurements for all three sides, and will show the averages.

Going from the shoulder down to the toe, the average angle of taper every 10mm is as follows:

0.2°
0.2°
0.3°
0.5°
0.9°
1.2°
1.7°
2.1°
and the average of the whole taper is 0.9°.

This shows that in the first third the taper is almost non-existent, starts to get going a bit in the middle third, building up to the maximum taper in the toe third. So no real surprise there, as it can be seen visually.

IMPORTANT: When I first started on this analytical journey a month ago, I couldn't for the life of me see why the taper was so important to some people. However, when I saw what Claw was on about it came to me all at once: the taper compensates for metal loss as the stroke progresses and keeps everything even and constant throughout the stroke. Bleedin' obvious when you see the real deal innit?

So yes, I am prepared to change my position in the face of supporting evidence and good argument. This is science, not stalwart opinion. I had originally planned to design a range of non-tapered files to present to the manufacturer, and they would have had a longer toothed area for each relative size, so that a good stroke length can be achieved - thus more efiicient. Not having a taper would also hhave meant that the number of different files could be significantly reduced (and that's really complex and long winded to explain)

The situation now is that a proper taper range (with proper corner radii and toothing) will be the first priority, and blunt-end, untapered files will still be on the burner, but at a lower heat.

Cheers
Brett


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## LakeLover (Feb 2, 2013)

Signed.

Chris that was the best laugh I have had in a while!!!


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## Airframer (Jan 19, 2013)

Signed.

As a case in point for the throw away direction in tools. Yesterday I finally broke down and set out to buy a new already sharp saw. I have about 4 vintage saws in need of sharpening to be useful but don't have any files or the setup to sharpen them yet and needed a ready to go saw now. I know if I was willing to spend a lot of $$ I could get a good quality saw but I'm not that rich and I shouldn't have to take out a loan to buy a hand saw INHO.

So off to the big orange store I go and ended up coming home with a new Stanley gen purpose saw for $12. The teeth are induction hardened so once it's dull it goes in the trash. That is how they are all built now. Designed from the beginning to be tossed and a new one bought.

So basically the moral of the story is that the lack of saw files is just a small part of the bigger picture. If new saws cannot be sharpened why would they make files to sharpen saws with? The entire industry needs to take a second look at what they are doing.


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## Brit (Aug 14, 2010)

I couldn't agree more Eric. I think disposable saws have their place. When I was renovating my property, I bought a box of them. I didn't care if I hit a nail or had to saw up close to brickwork. However, if you pick up one of them and then pick up any of my vintage saws, there really is no comparison. I'll be filing saws till they nail up my box let me tell ya.


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

Then ill use one to cut that box back open and extract any knowledge i can Andy. Zombie Stef.


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## Tugboater78 (May 26, 2012)

signed


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## TobyC (Apr 7, 2013)

You guys rock! We're gonna do it!

Toby


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## Brit (Aug 14, 2010)

Only 113 to go to reach 500 now. Thanks to everyone who has voted so far.


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## TobyC (Apr 7, 2013)

Yeah! Tell your friends, they don't have to be on a forum to sign on, just access to a computer or phone.


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## TobyC (Apr 7, 2013)

bump!


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## terryR (Jan 30, 2012)

How about if we ask our wifes to sign the petition? Since we live at the same address, will their signatures be discounted? (The wife and I kept our original last names.)

I KNOW my wife is sick of listening to me whine about the subject…


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## Brit (Aug 14, 2010)

Hmmm…not sure that would count Terry, unless they filed saws too.


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## Brit (Aug 14, 2010)

Only 65 votes needed now folks.

Even if you don't sharpen your own saws, the people you send them out to need good quality saw files also, so your vote is still appreciated. We musn't let the art of saw filing die, but it will if the quality of saw files continues to go down hill. If that happens, we'll be forced to use these:


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## BillWhite (Jul 23, 2007)

Signed.
Bill


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## TobyC (Apr 7, 2013)

That's a cute little saw there Andy, just needs some wheat!


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## Brit (Aug 14, 2010)

Thanks Bill.

The first saw I ever sharpened Toby, which was a bit silly really since it is 16ppi. Always best to start with a saw around 7 or 8ppi in my opinion.

BTW, has anyone ever told you, you look like Steve McQueen?


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## TobyC (Apr 7, 2013)

That is Steve McQueen.

This is me.


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## mchuray (Mar 11, 2010)

Maybe we can all get together and buy Cooper Tools and move their production back to the U.S. That will be the day. I was going to buy a 6" Crescent wrench and found that it was made in China so I bought a Kline instead. Sears now makes their ratchets in China which sounds really cheap and rough so again I got a Snap-on. 
Mark


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## Brit (Aug 14, 2010)

I prefer Steve McQueen. )


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## TobyC (Apr 7, 2013)

Yeah, me too!


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## TobyC (Apr 7, 2013)

It does not take a majority to prevail… but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men.

Samuel Adams


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## TobyC (Apr 7, 2013)

We're only 51 away from 500 guys, if anyone is still thinking about signing, now is a good time.


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## carguy460 (Jan 3, 2012)

Signed…though I have yet to sharpen my own saws, I have started to acquire files for the task. Every time I buy a few cheap files, I get back on LJ's to find out that they will likely crumble on me…

Hope this works out, looks like it's building up some momentum! Kudos for taking the initiative on this Brett!


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## Brit (Aug 14, 2010)

Thanks Jason.

Only 36 votes needed to reach 500 folks. Please support the cause if you haven't already done so.


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## FenceFurniture (Oct 28, 2011)

465 sigs now, a mere 35 to get to the psychological 500.

Australia still has the highest take-up rate, followed by the USA. Just sayin'.....

Australia has 63 sigs, population 23mill (defaults to the 100% rate)
United States 324, pop 316mill (50% of the rate)
Canada 21, pop 35mill (29% of the rate)
United Kingdom 29, pop 63mill (22% of the rate)

As far as a comparison with Facebooks "likes" is concerned, I reckon a signature without comment is worth two likes (at least), and a sig with comment is worth three (simply because of the extra effort involved - a "like" is just a click).


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## Brit (Aug 14, 2010)

Only 14 signatures needed now guys. Be part of the revolution!!!


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## SASmith (Mar 22, 2010)

Just a bump to get this back to the top.
12 more needed.


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## TobyC (Apr 7, 2013)

The pen,... I mean computer,... is mightier than the sword,... I mean file manufacturer! We're gonna kick the bean counters square in the beans!!!


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## theoldfart (Sep 9, 2011)

Watchit, I am a bean counter! There are good beans and bad beans and I think of myself as a good one.


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## TobyC (Apr 7, 2013)

Better hang on to your beans, this might go viral!!! (very funny smileys here)


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## FenceFurniture (Oct 28, 2011)

Kevin, does that explain your forum name?


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## theoldfart (Sep 9, 2011)

*Toby,*beans held (tightly)
*Fence*, that and age


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## TobyC (Apr 7, 2013)

Only 481 more and we'll have 1000! Tell your friends!


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

How goes tge battle gang?


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## DonBroussard (Mar 27, 2012)

Just signed the petition. Must be getting close to the "psychological 500" mark now.


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## FenceFurniture (Oct 28, 2011)

It only looks like it's quiet at the moment because all the action is "off-camera". I've completed the designs and specs for a new range, and have started work on the document for presentation.

Also, I have sent out 24 files to go around to 3 different testers for evaluation. This is really just proving what we already know, but hard data is required of course. The first tester has finished, and of the 24 there are only 4 files that he would consider purchasing (no surprise). It must be said that whilst these 4 files performed "ok" they could be a lot better. I'll be publishing the results in a couple of weeks when the other two guys have finished.

In the mean time I'm still trying to turn up a manufacturer who is already making good files (wish me luck!). There are two remaining that need to be examined more closely - one in Italy and one in Japan - emails have been sent to people on the ground in those two countries.

The latest manufacturer to be discounted is Baiter in Switzerland, who now get there Needle & Precision files from Vallorbe, and their Saw Files look so suspiciously Indian that I am not going to even bother trying to get some sent over. Even the Italian company Corradi is now just rebadging other people's files, in a similar (or identical) way to Baiter.

Regards
Brett


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

Thanks for the update Brett. Good to hear progress is being made. We're behind ya buddy.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Done.


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## TechRedneck (Jul 30, 2010)

Signed


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## Brit (Aug 14, 2010)

Thanks Tech.


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## FenceFurniture (Oct 28, 2011)

The testing results of 23 different files by 3 testers of different perspectives are in, and I have collated them.

I have to write some preamble notes, take quite a lot of photos and then they will be ready to publish in a day or two (fair bit of Photoshop work to do as well - combining before/after images, teeth that were cut yadda yadda).


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

Lookin forward to the results Brett.


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## FenceFurniture (Oct 28, 2011)

Errrr, are you sure about that chrisstef? They're not particularly pretty…..


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

Gotta start some where buddy and if this lights a fire under someones butt im all for it. Its a good deed being done for the greater good of the masses.

Ive sharpened 3 rips saws since your movement began and im pretty well hooked. Id like to step my game up and possibly do this for some side cash so im behind this thing 100%.


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## FenceFurniture (Oct 28, 2011)

" if this lights a fire under someones butt im all for it"

Now there is a video link to YouTube that I could post, and I would have the nads to do it at home (in fact have posted it with no problem), but not sure how I'd go over here…. (pretty bloody funny though).


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## FenceFurniture (Oct 28, 2011)

*The Test Report is now complete and has been uploaded to Dropbox as a PDF:*

*SAW FILES TEST REPORT*


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Great! Thanks for taking all of the time for such an in depth look at these files. Rather sobering results for sure…


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## TechRedneck (Jul 30, 2010)

Thanks for the very detailed report! Looks like the data confirms what many of us already know.


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## CFrye (May 13, 2013)

Signed! I am new to woodworking and hand tools. I want to learn how to maintain (not mangle) my tools. Thanks Brett for taking on this endeavor! 642 sigs!


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## Langing (Feb 2, 2017)

3/22/2017

The petition is 'closed' now and once again I feel left behind.

It was a great idea, Brett! So, how did it turn out? Are there any high quality hand saw sharpening file manufacturers extant on this planet by now, just when I got the itch to restore handsaws? Oh well, haven't invested all that much, just about $5 a saw. Only need to sharpen 10.

Thanks a bunch for your attempt, no matter how it turned out.


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## r33tc0w (Jan 27, 2017)

This noob is curious too


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## FenceFurniture (Oct 28, 2011)

I didn't get too far yet with getting new ones made. There was some hope for a while, but no news yet.

We basically came to the conclusion that Bahco are about as good as you'll be able to find (apart from any NOS that may still be available - good luck), but they have inconsistent edge sharpness.


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## r33tc0w (Jan 27, 2017)

Could you repost the outcome of the tests?


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## FenceFurniture (Oct 28, 2011)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/wlpuubowlc22tgu/SAW%20FILE%20TEST%20RESULTS.pdf?dl=0


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## Langing (Feb 2, 2017)

Your report represents quite a lot of work on the part of you three individuals (and probably others). And it is a very nice addition to our knowledge base. Your results should be widely distributed in the woodworking and saw sharpening communities.

Personally, I think it would have been better (more scientific sounding) if the 'citric acid treatment' had not been a part of your study. At the time, maybe it was a 'burning question' in the minds of many, but in the final report it only serves to confuse and give the reader much more to comprehend than is necessary. Imagine an 'edited' version of your report where all references to 'citric acid treatment' was expunged. The report could be shorter, have much less detail, while making the essential information more understandable. Do you think the 'citric acid treatment' stuff helps when shopping it around the various saw file manufacturers?

Also, the first table showed the meaning of the information in each column, then you stopped including that information at subsequent table headings. Again, personally, I wish you hadn't done that. I lost track of what each column meant almost immediately, and kept referring back to the first to remind myself. By the time I finished reading, I think I had memorized the meaning of each column. But. maybe it would have been better to include it on each table?

Finally, may I suggest that in the 4 years since you opened your petition many more people have become interested in saw sharpening and hand tool woodworking because of Paul Sellers superb teaching his dream of keeping woodworking with hand tools alive. Just look at his effect on sales of hand planes on eBay! 'Vintage' Stanley #4 1/2 planes frequently top $150. And tenon saws go for hundreds of dollars! I may be wrong, but I imagine that our woodworking community is increasing rapidly due to the influence of YouTube, and this is an exemplary case.

So, this leads me to suggest that you re-open your petition, or create another that says the same, and then sell your idea through people like Sellers on YouTube, people who have significant numbers of subscribers, so you can reach that huge audience and thus present a petition to the saw file makers the world over in a way that lets them know (by raw number of signatures) that the first one to be able to produce a true QUALITY product will be rewarded handsomely. Do it right and maybe you can pull even more manufacturers into competition, so they fight each other to get at this undiscovered market. Maybe you can stimulation 'invention' so someone makes a file that can do the job over many saws, and still keep filing.

Then I think, "From the manufacturer's perspective, things must be going along just fine because people have been buying more and more saw files over time, but the reason is their files do not last and their line of saw files are getting a very bad name with respect to quality." The way to deal with that is to distribute your report world-wide so people who are currently buying their products quit buying their crap.

Of course, all that said assumes you still have an interest some four years later. So, take it or leave it. You had already made a very significant contribution, and many people owe you a debt of gratitude. Thanks for putting in all that work,


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## FenceFurniture (Oct 28, 2011)

> Personally, I think it would have been better (more scientific sounding) if the citric acid treatment had not been a part of your study. At the time, maybe it was a burning question in the minds of many,


It was a topic that we had been discussing a fair bit over here, so we wanted to find out if there really was anything to it. Certainly I wouldn't include it again, now that we know the answer.



> Do it right and maybe you can pull even more manufacturers into competition, so they fight each other to get at this undiscovered market.


Yes I have no doubt that there are more and more people wanting good files. The biggest problem is that there are now only a handful of manufacturers left in the world, and of them there are probably 2 or 3 that can do the job. One of them has already said "No thanks", another thinks that their files are good enough, and another would rather concentrate on their hand-made products (not machine made files). The only other decent one that we know of is in Japan and the language barrier could not be overcome - even with a native English speaker with a Japanese wife on the ground. There was some hope that the people concentrating on the hand made stuff could get a collaboration going, but I haven't heard anything in over a year.

Perhaps they take my lack of asking as a sign that I've given up, but it's more that I don't want to be a continual PITA. I'll send another email….......


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