# Making cabinet doors - thermofoil, Cnc, Software?



## Ringwall

I'm interested in starting a cabinet door business, and I'm researching CNC machines, software, and thermofoil. Wondering if anyone here has any experience with this kind of work and would be willing to share some advice.

I'm currently looking at the Yeti tool which is what brought me to this forum, as some members were discussing it.

Also, just wondering if anyone has had any experience with imported thermofoil machines - the local ones seem crazy expensive, considering what they do?

Thanks in advance!


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## MadMark

Really?


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## JackDuren

You need to go to Woodweb for this kind of information.

We have had major door manufacturing companies here in the Midwest shut down. It's a difficult business..

You can make a few select doors one piece without a CNC.. but the thermofoIL is a total different animal


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## paulLumberJock

Yea, google how cheap ready made doors are on the web are.
I doubt a one man business can compete, especially if you are doing MDF doors that are CNC routered.


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## Ringwall

> You need to go to Woodweb for this kind of information.
> 
> We have had major door manufacturing companies here in the Midwest shut down. It s a difficult business..
> 
> You can make a few select doors one piece without a CNC.. but the thermofoIL is a total different animal
> 
> - JackDuren





> You need to go to Woodweb for this kind of information.
> 
> We have had major door manufacturing companies here in the Midwest shut down. It s a difficult business..
> 
> You can make a few select doors one piece without a CNC.. but the thermofoIL is a total different animal
> 
> - JackDuren





> You need to go to Woodweb for this kind of information.
> 
> We have had major door manufacturing companies here in the Midwest shut down. It s a difficult business..
> 
> You can make a few select doors one piece without a CNC.. but the thermofoIL is a total different animal
> 
> - JackDuren


Lol, okay. A different animal in what respect. Complicated? Expensive? Finicky?


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## JAAune

The Yeti Tool CNC is not a production router. It looks like it has potential for a portable jobsite system but that's not what you'd need in a manufacturing line. The spindle is too weak to run deep passes with large diameter cutters at high ipm.

If you're going into cabinet doors, you'll need a niche (SemiHandMade.com did this) to set yourself apart from the established companies. My recommendation is to use whatever tools you have now to create your products and see if you can get a client base. Outsource if necessary. If the clients don't come, you won't be out much money and you can move onto other products.

It would be easy to drop $250,000 into a cabinet door production line and still be under-equipped compared to the existing door companies. It would be bad to invest all that money only to find that you're unable to produce enough doors at market pricing to break even.


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## Ringwall

> Yea, google how cheap ready made doors are on the web are.
> I doubt a one man business can compete, especially if you are doing MDF doors that are CNC routered.
> 
> - paulLumberJock


So, I'm not exactly a one man business. I was the head manager of a furniture and blinds manufacturing plant. I'm currently enrolled in an MBA program and am looking to develop a business. I recently did my own kitchen Reno during covid and ended up ordering doors from renuit (the refacing business out of home Depot Canada). They botched the job so badly, but I was impressed with the door quality. They made the same noob errors the company I managed was making in their warehouse before I was hired. . I am confident that with my knowledge of manufacturing and delivery I can copy the marketing system we used for the blinds. I just want to be able to CNC some doors from MDF and then give them a factory finish without paint. I've ran the numbers and with the cost of the thermofoil material, I'm pretty sure I can do quite well. I've already built my own CNC and laser cutter in the past and have a strong background in 3d modelling. I'm certain the CNC part will not be a problem. I have access to a small warehouse and have a few young gentlemen to employ should we start making sales. Just don't want to invest a hundred grand in a machine that gets warm and presses down. Seems like an aweful lot for such a thing. Though admittedly I don't really know anything about the science of those machines.


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## JackDuren

> You need to go to Woodweb for this kind of information.
> 
> We have had major door manufacturing companies here in the Midwest shut down. It s a difficult business..
> 
> You can make a few select doors one piece without a CNC.. but the thermofoIL is a total different animal
> 
> - JackDuren
> 
> You need to go to Woodweb for this kind of information.
> 
> We have had major door manufacturing companies here in the Midwest shut down. It s a difficult business..
> 
> You can make a few select doors one piece without a CNC.. but the thermofoIL is a total different animal
> 
> - JackDuren
> 
> You need to go to Woodweb for this kind of information.
> 
> We have had major door manufacturing companies here in the Midwest shut down. It s a difficult business..
> 
> You can make a few select doors one piece without a CNC.. but the thermofoIL is a total different animal
> 
> - JackDuren
> 
> Lol, okay. A different animal in what respect. Complicated? Expensive? Finicky?
> 
> - Ringwall


This I can't tell you. Reason I suggest WoodWeb. I spent 30 years making or running shops doing residential or Commercial and the last 7 years ax a high end furniture maker. This I can help you with, but Thermofoil no….


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## MadMark

As a production manager WTF are you doing HERE for advice? Hire a consultant. Attend a trade show.

I've been a production manager. You don't get to be one by having to ask for help in a forum such as this. You're supposed to already *know* answers to questions like this (or be smart enough to figure it out on your own.)

You make a point of telling us your education (implying we're not) yet you admit to knowing nothing. Which is it?!


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## RichT

> You make a point of telling us your education (implying we re not) yet you admit to knowing nothing. Which is it?!
> 
> - Madmark2


I don't know, but I bet he knows the difference between a square and a rule.


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## JackDuren

> As a production manager WTF are you doing HERE for advice? Hire a consultant. Attend a trade show.
> 
> I ve been a production manager. You don t get to be one by having to ask for help in a forum such as this. You re supposed to already *know* answers to questions like this (or be smart enough to figure it out on your own.)
> 
> You make a point of telling us your education (implying we re not) yet you admit to knowing nothing. Which is it?!
> 
> - Madmark2


He's here to gather information like the rest.


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## JackDuren

> You make a point of telling us your education (implying we re not) yet you admit to knowing nothing. Which is it?!
> 
> - Madmark2
> 
> I don t know, but I bet he knows the difference between a square and a rule.
> 
> - Rich


Being from Alabama I might have a tough time with that one


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## LeeRoyMan

> As a production manager WTF are you doing HERE for advice? Hire a consultant. Attend a trade show.
> 
> I ve been a production manager. You don t get to be one by having to ask for help in a forum such as this. You re supposed to already *know* answers to questions like this (or be smart enough to figure it out on your own.)
> 
> You make a point of telling us your education (implying we re not) yet you admit to knowing nothing. Which is it?!
> 
> - Madmark2


Really Mark?
A little snarky don't you think?
I understand, because you were a production manager that you know everything about everything, but that doesn't mean everybody does.

He is simply trying to make something of his life and by coming here is part of his research to do so.

My input into making thermofoil doors is that it is going to take a lot of cash to get started even on a small scale.
I wouldn't even try it without having a cnc machine, with a table big enough to match the size of you vacuum form machine. I don't see how you can make any money without these machines. One of those occasions when you can't afford not to have them.

Disclaimer: I have no experience with these machines, but have been in the cabinet business as long as Jack so I know at least as much as Jack…LOL

I'm sure you have looked at both, but here are some entry level (in my opinion) machines to get an idea of minimal investment of a vacuum machine.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=thermofoil+vacuum+forming+machines+for+cabinet+doors&FORM=AWVR


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## PurpLev

> As a production manager WTF are you doing HERE for advice? Hire a consultant. Attend a trade show.
> 
> I ve been a production manager. You don t get to be one by having to ask for help in a forum such as this. You re supposed to already *know* answers to questions like this (or be smart enough to figure it out on your own.)
> 
> You make a point of telling us your education (implying we re not) yet you admit to knowing nothing. Which is it?!
> 
> - Madmark2


why the attitude?

I didn't feel the OP implied anything about my education, but helped clarify his point of reference which actually helped quite a bit. seems like a legit post opening up discussion around thermafoil (which I didn't know about before, so thanks for making me look this up)


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## JackDuren

Ringwall…. looking for so thing to get involved in? Try poly stone planters


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## Ringwall

> As a production manager WTF are you doing HERE for advice? Hire a consultant. Attend a trade show.
> 
> I ve been a production manager. You don t get to be one by having to ask for help in a forum such as this. You re supposed to already *know* answers to questions like this (or be smart enough to figure it out on your own.)
> 
> You make a point of telling us your education (implying we re not) yet you admit to knowing nothing. Which is it?!
> 
> - Madmark2


Sorry, as a production manager you're supposed to know answers to questions like this? I came to a forum if professional woodworkers and asked if anyone had experience with a type of tech I am not fully familiar with, I don't have the budget to hire consultants, so obviously the better choice is to ask questions for free, and in case you missed it trade shows… Not really an option right now, pal.

And I wasn't mentioning my education to imply that you were not smart, I was simply attempting to quell the worry of some of the posters who thought I might be in over my head. I was explaining that I am experienced in manufacturing and am learning the business management end. I just wanted to know if anyone had any advice or technical experience. Anyways, no worries, I'll go pay a consultant. Just know, next time when you are a noob at something, like perhaps, emotional intelligence or the art of conversation, recall how helpful you were when someone asked you a simple question, bro.


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## Ringwall

> Ringwall…. looking for so thing to get involved in? Try poly stone planters
> 
> - JackDuren


I'll look into it.


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## Ringwall

> As a production manager WTF are you doing HERE for advice? Hire a consultant. Attend a trade show.
> 
> I ve been a production manager. You don t get to be one by having to ask for help in a forum such as this. You re supposed to already *know* answers to questions like this (or be smart enough to figure it out on your own.)
> 
> You make a point of telling us your education (implying we re not) yet you admit to knowing nothing. Which is it?!
> 
> - Madmark2
> 
> why the attitude?
> 
> I didn t feel the OP implied anything about my education, but helped clarify his point of reference which actually helped quite a bit. seems like a legit post opening up discussion around thermafoil (which I didn t know about before, so thanks for making me look this up)
> 
> - PurpLev


Thanks, PurpLev,
That was my intention exactly. I'm a little ADHD and almost never ask questions online and wait for answers. As part of MBA program I'm attempting to be more methodical. Just this past week I repaired my mother's jeep key fob by attempting some rather complex soldering after asking and listing pics on a jeep forum I joined for that exact issue. I saved a 400 fob that I would have destroyed in the past.

Yes, so I was building a kitchen from scratch and I actually routered and manufactured 16 perfect doors including custom panels for a fridge and freezer, but with COVID everyone was home and painting them (my least developed skill) was not producing a result I was happy with. Anyways I statarted researching getting my doors painted professionally when I stumbled upon these custom door businesses of which there were a few in Ontario (where I'm from). Home Depot ended up being the cheapest, and I did some research to see what they were made of and the quality. Seems thermofoil is really interesting stuff. And the doors they made are incredible. I realized that this is a good business, because most people who aren't in the business probably have no idea that they could custom doors in a perfect factory finish sent to their door for a relatively small fee. When you call then for a quote they include installation, which was almost $14,000, after explaining that I wanted to install them myself, they insisted it was a bad idea. I explained to them that I manufactured blinds and was fairly capable at measuring materials correctly. The entire kitchen, including trim and hardware was just over 3000. You could redo it every ten years and have a new kitchen rather than spending once and being stuck with the same kitchen and big bill. Just my thoughts.


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## Ringwall

> The Yeti Tool CNC is not a production router. It looks like it has potential for a portable jobsite system but that s not what you d need in a manufacturing line. The spindle is too weak to run deep passes with large diameter cutters at high ipm.
> 
> If you re going into cabinet doors, you ll need a niche (SemiHandMade.com did this) to set yourself apart from the established companies. My recommendation is to use whatever tools you have now to create your products and see if you can get a client base. Outsource if necessary. If the clients don t come, you won t be out much money and you can move onto other products.
> 
> It would be easy to drop $250,000 into a cabinet door production line and still be under-equipped compared to the existing door companies. It would be bad to invest all that money only to find that you re unable to produce enough doors at market pricing to break even.
> 
> - JAAune


Thanks for the info, do you not think it would be capable of cutting MDF doors though, that's literally all I would be cutting? My desktop shapeoko cuts through MDF like butter, I was hoping to get something 4 * 8 feet, and this seemed to be a good value to size and quality. But I'll keep that in mind. I'm looking to market to the individual or diyer, not looking to supply furniture companies or anything. Like if I did a couple kitchens a month, or supplied a couple contractors with doors for kitchens, closets or washroom vanity's I feel like I'd be doing pretty well, at least to start.


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## Jared_S

> I came to a forum if professional woodworkers and asked if anyone had experience with a type of tech I am not fully familiar with,
> 
> - Ringwall


This is a hobbyist forum with thr occasional professional or retired professional.Woodweb is the forum you are looking for


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## JackDuren

> Ringwall…. looking for so thing to get involved in? Try poly stone planters
> 
> - JackDuren
> 
> I ll look into it.
> 
> - Ringwall


If you get serious, tect me. I watched his company start from scratch. He know has accounts with Hone deopt..


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## JAAune

> Thanks for the info, do you not think it would be capable of cutting MDF doors though, that s literally all I would be cutting? My desktop shapeoko cuts through MDF like butter, I was hoping to get something 4 * 8 feet, and this seemed to be a good value to size and quality. But I ll keep that in mind. I m looking to market to the individual or diyer, not looking to supply furniture companies or anything. Like if I did a couple kitchens a month, or supplied a couple contractors with doors for kitchens, closets or washroom vanity s I feel like I d be doing pretty well, at least to start.
> 
> - Ringwall


Almost any CNC will cut MDF. How fast do you need to make a door?

Biesse Pod and Rail Door Cutting

Biesse Nested Door Cutting

Those machines are cutting profiles with custom cutters in a single pass at high speeds.

The Yeti CNC website contains a lot of marketing fluff and little in the way of specs. It's hard to tell how fast it can cut. There's no vacuum table either. That means wasting time putting screws in the sheet then programming cuts to avoid screws. Starting price is $7145 plus shipping and tax.

I paid $7,000 for a used AXYZ 5×10 CNC with a 3HP spindle and vacuum table. Older Biesse pod and rail machines frequently sell used on Craigslist or eBay for $8,000-$15,000. Since you've had experience building CNC machines, going used is a good option for you. A good machine can be upgraded with a new controller so it runs on Mach3 or Kmotion if outdated software becomes a problem.

One other thing to consider is the issue of painting vs thermofoil. I've no experience doing thermofoil. I have heard of people complaining that thermofoil can peel off. I do have experience painting and can confirm that it would be much cheaper to get setup for high quality painting than to setup for thermofoil. First you need to start with the right MDF. Cheap MDF gets fuzzy when cut and the cut surfaces are hard to paint. You need MDF from a commercial supplier and I think Rangerboard is one of the brands that is good. Second, an airless sprayer with the right paint makes it easy to apply a good finish. It just takes some time to practice.


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## xedos

"So, I'm not exactly a one man business. "

Well, ya kinda are. Who else has any talent or capital to bring to the business? A few teens or twenty something guys to provide semi-skilled labor on short notice to a non existing entity isn't exactly an operation.

"I am confident that with my knowledge of manufacturing and delivery I can copy the marketing system we used for the blinds."

Confidence is good, but don't let it become hubris - which you seem to be skirting. Marketing and selling are rather different disciplines from manufacturing. People are rarely good at both. And you can make the best damn widget in history, but if you don't sell any or enough or people just don't want widgets, all your best practices and efficient six sigma production lines are worthless.

Except, to the liquidators.

"I've ran the numbers and with the cost of the thermofoil material, I'm pretty sure I can do quite well."

Have you ? How do you know your cost assumptions are practical in the real world ? Or even remotely correct? More later - but I think you've no idea based on other comments you've made.

" to employ should we start making sales. "

This is a bit incongruous with your previous statement of confidence. Did you mean "when we have sales " ?

" Just don't want to invest a hundred grand in a machine that gets warm and presses down. "

You are sunk, and your ship hasn't left the dock. That's the business. Big machines that heat and press down. And it ain't set up for onesy twosy orders to makers, hobbyists, HGTV neophytes , and bargain seekers.

You don't honestly think you're the first person to have the idea to market to this crowd do you ? Isn't it reasonable to think a marketer at an established thermofoil producer already had this vision ?

I hope you want to invest many times that. You are not entering a business that is conducive to garage startups with tons of sweat equity and little cash.

"*Home Depot ended up being the cheapest*"

You'll learn why soon enough in school, but here's the no cost exec. summary:
volume, volume , volume. And they squeeze their supply chain for every point they can get. You will have none of those at your disposable. And you're not even looking to be in the volume game. Again, your plan has flaws.

"And the doors they made are incredible."

Perhaps. To the moderately discerning , they are crap. There's a market for them., but it's big cost sensitive jobs like apartments, commercial ect…. Again , not your expressed target market.

" do you not think it would be capable of cutting MDF doors though, that's literally all I would be cutting? "

It's not that we don' think you / it can cut MDF doors. We think it's not the correct tool to allow you to cut enough doors , quickly enough, for long enough to be profitable.

And how much are you planning to invest in dust collection and compressed air? Gonna take a lot of both to run that operation and neither are inexpensive.

Seriously, go to Woodweb. That's where the professional cabinet manufacturers are. But , be warned - they are not a touchy feelie bunch.


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## DS

So, this is an interesting subject.

The thing to understand about Cabinet door manufacturing is that cabinet doors generally, and thermofoil doors specifically, are a commodity business. The companies that thrive are getting into fairly large volumes in order to drive the cost down.

There is very little advantage in B2B sales for a cabinet company to buy thermofoil doors from a boutique operation at a higher cost.
When you sell something largely by the square foot, your price per square foot is what will set you apart from other companies.

That said, if you have the sales potential, there is no good business model that I am aware of that would not use state of the art industrial equipment in order to produce cost effectively.

The membrane press is expensive and occupies lots of real estate for what it does, but is essential for success.

A high end CNC router that can adequately keep up with that press is also essential.

As far as "how fast do you need to route mdf doors?", the answer is "as fast as possible". I would be using high speed tooling in an industrial CNC router to cut upwards to 1000ipm. An entry level machine might cut only 350 to 400 ipm.

If you can get an extra 20% of daily volume from the faster machine, that might give you a slight edge over your competitor.

As someone who has bought and resold hundreds of thousands of outsourced cabinet doors, hopefully I've able to help you some.


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## Racheed

A decent thermfoil line is high end production. I have worked on a few of these lines but you got to run a lot of doors for this to start paying for itself. A million dollars will get you a good European line, and you think American machines are expensive! They are a joy to watch


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## rwe2156

I have no technical knowledge to offer, but a critical aspect of starting a business is capital outlay and market research. I'm sure you know this, but based on what I know in my area with a couple different shops, anything to do with the cabinet making business you better have your research & marketing down before you spend a penny on machinery.

Two different guys I know have quit making kitchens altogether b/c they can't compete with the big boys and contractors don't want to wait. One now makes 80% of his income off conference tables and reception counters, the other is mostly built ins.

That said, like all businesses at some point you have to take the risk how can you advertise a product if you can't make anything?

If you've got connections that's going to help a lot.

I would keep a close eye on the economy if the construction and housing industry goes through another contraction it wouldn't be a good time to jump in.


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## Mike_D_S

I would respectfully suggest that you re-evaluate your target market. Thermofoil MDF core doors is a pretty commodity market and with established big players and online presence making them readily accessible to everyone from a homeowner on up you're essentially going knowing up front you're competing on cost as a primary driver. I think that establishing any kind of product differentiation for CNC cut MDF core thermofoil door is going to be very difficult.

Running a small outfit likely means you won't be able to compete on unit cost and if you can't technically differentiate your product then you have a pretty tough road.

But there are potentially other ways to differentiate. Before this last move my neighbor and I ran a part time remodeling business and we did a fair number of kitchen refacing with veneer and new doors. After doing 2 or 3 where we made the doors, we quit doing it and started ordering doors. The place we order from is reasonably priced, but not the cheapest. What I like about them is they deliver on orders above a certain amount and they have great customer service. So in this case I could order the doors cheaper online, but the fact a guy brings them right to my house and we inspect them together makes a big difference.

So if you want to get into this, I think you're going to have to look at alternate value adds. If you can't compete on price or quality, then what can you compete on to carve out a niche?


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## JackDuren

Remodeling, making doors , refacing isn't what he's looking at. He wants to be a munufacturing company..


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## Mike_D_S

> Remodeling, making doors , refacing isn t what he s looking at. He wants to be a munufacturing company..
> - JackDuren


I think you missed my point, I understood he wants to manufacture cabinet doors. My point was that he is talking about manufacturing a commodity product in an established market. If I broadly assume that his CNC cut MDF thermofoil doors are going to be at least the same quality as everyone else and that he'll be able to match the prices of the other established competitors (which I think is a tough nut early on), then he needs something else to help get traction in the market.

What I was trying to convey is that I was buying doors from a door manufacturer who provided a commodity product at prices slightly higher than I could get online because they provided an additional level of service, thus they were differentiated despite being comparable in quality and price.

Inferring from the posts, the OP has good general experience in manufacturing, no significant technical experience with manufacturing the product he wants to make, and seems to have some limits on startup capital. So I think he's going to need a hook to sell competitively against the established players.


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## Wags999

Thermofoil doors are a niche market. Most doors are solid wood in scores of profiles and edge treatments. You will be up against many huge companies and thousands of small shops all selling online or in their area. It's a tough business to make money. I had a cabinet shop for over 30 years. Starting making doors but found out I could purchase doors, with many more options for no more than what it took me to produce. Waltzcraft is where I purchased my doors, in LaCross, Wisconsin. When I started they had half dozen employees, today they are well over 400 and completely automated shop. When they first got into thermofoil doors it was a nightmare, the learning curve we huge. It also takes a lot of tooling to offer all the edge profiles, panel profiles and styles they offer.

I could make a whole set of cabinets in less time than making the doors, plus, I didn't want to put $10,s of thousands into tooling to offer what I could buy from them. I doubled my production by purchasing doors, and probably had less then 1% issues with their doors. Remakes were made on their nightshift and sent out the next day…

Your comparing what you could do to Home Depot, most any shop can beat HD at price and quality.

It's a very very difficult business and if your only going to offer a niche product, thermofoil doors, you need to stay a one man shop or go big, there is no middle ground.

Good Luck !


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## JackDuren

Every well known cabinet shop here in KC makes there own doors.

Only ones not making doors are small outfits that don't last…

There was a guy on stadium Blvd here in Independence, Mo. Ordering box parts and doors. His niche was building and spraying and installation. This didn't last long…

I talked to the guy about a job. He said your kinda old aren't you. I said well let's see if Ive been making cabinet 35 years I pd have to be a lil old…

I was trying to find something close to home, but I didn't think he had much of a future..


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## Wags999

> Every well known cabinet shop here in KC makes there own doors.
> 
> Only ones not making doors are small outfits that don t last…
> 
> There was a guy on stadium Blvd here in Independence, Mo. Ordering box parts and doors. His niche was building and spraying and installation. This didn t last long…
> 
> - JackDuren


Most cabinet shops, even the very large ones purchase at least some of their doors. When you do the math, and look at the 1000's of options (which you would need tooling for each) there is no way you can compete with what the large door companies offer. Plus, you can produce a lot more "boxes" and add the pre made doors than you could otherwise, again, adding to your bottom line. Go to https://walzcraft.com/ and look at their offering.. there is no way any small shop could offer even 5% of what they offer. I know guys like to brag we make it all ourselves….those are the fools….your in business to make $$ and you can make many more $$ purchasing from someone that does one thing really really well. Check out Conestoga Doors, huge company that supplies many national cabinet manufacturers. There is a reason they have grown so large.. Waltzcraft has a 340,000 sq ft plant…can you compete with that ?


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## JackDuren

> Every well known cabinet shop here in KC makes there own doors.
> 
> Only ones not making doors are small outfits that don t last…
> 
> There was a guy on stadium Blvd here in Independence, Mo. Ordering box parts and doors. His niche was building and spraying and installation. This didn t last long…
> 
> - JackDuren
> 
> Most cabinet shops, even the very large ones purchase at least some of their doors. When you do the math, and look at the 1000 s of options (which you would need tooling for each) there is no way you can compete with what the large door companies offer. Plus, you can produce a lot more "boxes" and add the pre made doors than you could otherwise, again, adding to your bottom line. Go to https://walzcraft.com/ and look at their offering.. there is no way any small shop could offer even 5% of what they offer. I know guys like to brag we make it all ourselves….those are the fools….your in business to make $$ and you can make many more $$ purchasing from someone that does one thing really really well. Check out Conestoga Doors, huge company that supplies many national cabinet manufacturers. There is a reason they have grown so large.. Waltzcraft has a 340,000 sq ft plant…can you compete with that ?
> 
> - Wags999


Sorry you'll just have accept it's not the same for everyone else than you. Everyone makes there doors around here. Unless there ordering Thermofoil. Even I As a one man shop man my own doors. I made good money at it.

Nobody around needs to compete with Waltzcraft. But I get tge feeling you work for them…I certainly didn't need their doors..

You could make a whole set of cabinets in the time it takes to make doors. Maybe your not good at making doors. That could explain it..


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## Wags999

> Every well known cabinet shop here in KC makes there own doors.
> 
> Only ones not making doors are small outfits that don t last…
> 
> There was a guy on stadium Blvd here in Independence, Mo. Ordering box parts and doors. His niche was building and spraying and installation. This didn t last long…
> 
> - JackDuren
> 
> Most cabinet shops, even the very large ones purchase at least some of their doors. When you do the math, and look at the 1000 s of options (which you would need tooling for each) there is no way you can compete with what the large door companies offer. Plus, you can produce a lot more "boxes" and add the pre made doors than you could otherwise, again, adding to your bottom line. Go to https://walzcraft.com/ and look at their offering.. there is no way any small shop could offer even 5% of what they offer. I know guys like to brag we make it all ourselves….those are the fools….your in business to make $$ and you can make many more $$ purchasing from someone that does one thing really really well. Check out Conestoga Doors, huge company that supplies many national cabinet manufacturers. There is a reason they have grown so large.. Waltzcraft has a 340,000 sq ft plant…can you compete with that ?
> 
> - Wags999
> 
> Sorry you ll just have accept it s not the same for everyone else than you. Everyone makes there doors around here. Unless there ordering Thermofoil. Even I As a one man shop man my own doors. I made good money at it.
> 
> - JackDuren


 Jack, I am not going to argue with you, you can certainly build whatever you want. But it only works with a very limited number of choices. Waltzcraft ( I have no interest in the company) offers. 80 stile and rail profiles, 110 center panel profiles and over 200 edge profiles. Plus scores of types of doors, 5 piece, applied moldings, thermofoil etc etc etc… There is no way you can offer even a small percentage of those door stiles at a price that can be competitive with what they offer. Add in the time it takes to make doors and you can almost double your output for the same labor. I started out making my own, but quickly found out what every other company eventually finds out, I need to do what I do best and partner with others that do what they do best. Just to purchase tooling for shapers for all that they can offer would be in six digets.. run the numbers, you may be awaken to a more rewarding future. Plus, you can offer 100's of door styles all made to 1/16" increments, no way you can do that as cost efficient, impossible. Good luck with your cabinet shop…stay small or you have to go large, it's the mid sized shops the get killed..


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## JackDuren

Not everyone needs a 100 options…

Sorry it's a no sale here…


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## Wags999

> Not everyone needs a 100 options.
> 
> - JackDuren


 Your correct…only those companies that want to offer something different to their clientele. The high end customer wants something their neighbors don't have…I choose to go for high end, rather than "me too". No money competing with "me too". JMHO

Good Luck Jack, glad it's working for you.


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## JackDuren

Obviously there is money for the "me too". crowd. That's why the are so many shops.


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## xedos

I hadn't realized KC was such a hotbed of decorating style and taste, as well as home to some of 
the country's best and cutting edge cabinet companies.

Or ones with some of the top sales numbers and earnings.

Guess I should get out more.


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## CaptainKlutz

+1 Woodweb.
Lumberjocks has more hobbyists than professionals, and is not best forum to discuss wood manufacturing business start up.

+1 Interesting thread, 
Especially to someone who has spent decades building mfg equipment and entire mfg plants. 



> It s a very very difficult business and if your only going to offer a niche product, thermofoil doors, you need to stay a one man shop or go big, there is no middle ground. - Wags999


+1

IME - All of wood working business is a niche; cabinets, doors, blinds, counter tops. Very few 'middle' sized companies survive making a wood 'commodity' product. Need to either go big, or stay small, especially when making something sold at big box store. Note - The definition of small, middle, and big varies based on your regional market.

Arizona commercial wood working market has constant cycle of new start-ups and companies closing. Everyone one of the smaller outfits that survive the economic cycles for 10 years+ will tell you that managing size and picking profitable products/projects is hardest part of managing company. Deep down smart capital spending and access to skilled labor is key to growth/survival.

Last 4 years custom homes and remodeling are booming, but wood working business (cabinet/blinds) are closing every quarter despite the hot local market. THE root of problem is getting enough skilled labor, or anyone who wants to be learn and become skilled at wood working. Not many cheap young folks want to suck saw dust all day, and feed a shaper or 4 sided planer/molder. No one wants to suck air thru a respirator in 100° AZ outdoor spray booth, especially with swamp cooling. The local labor shortage causing a disappearance of any middle volume producers. To grow with market cycles, need to spend big bucks for automation with short payback, so you can reduce number of bodies; or else; stay small enough labor is not a problem. 
Even the folks that made the investment into automation in past are having issues keeping up with market demand. We have had several folks close shop after 10-20 years in business as no one wanted to invest into, or buy an existing commodity business that needed millions in new equipment to capture all increased local demand with shortage of labor in area.

Wood working is tough MANUFACTURING business every where (I set up a Thermofoil line overseas once). Any silly monkey who can read a tool catalog can start working wood in a shed, barn, or some cheap rented space. But only the educated, skilled, and financially sound grow up to be successful money making business due narrow margins created by commodity priced market. IME - Finding the local 'niche' where you have more control over sales price is best/only way to get started in manufacturing any wood product.

Best Luck!


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## DS

I once helped setup a brand new custom cabinet shop from scratch with a $1M budget. 
We set up a state of the art (for the time) door manufacturing department.

We opened our doors with a 6 week backlog of orders and before long we were doing $3.5M annual sales. The problem was, we were headed towards $5M annual sales and had no more room to expand.

We had already bought out the next door neighbor's building and joined them together to meet this volume and there just wasn't anymore real estate to grow.

The answer to meet our expansion was to sell all the door equipment and outsource all of our doors.

Not only did this allow us to grow our sales, it increased our margins significantly. Turns out we were building doors more expensively than the specialized door company with a larger economy of scale.

Our quality increased and so did our profits.
This is a win-win-win - the best kind of win.

YMMV


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## Wags999

> I once helped setup a brand new custom cabinet shop from scratch with a $1M budget.
> We set up a state of the art (for the time) door manufacturing department.
> 
> We opened our doors with a 6 week backlog of orders and before long we were doing $3.5M annual sales. The problem was, we were headed towards $5M annual sales and had no more room to expand.
> 
> We had already bought out the next door neighbor's building and joined them together to meet this volume and there just wasn't anymore real estate to grow.
> 
> The answer to meet our expansion was to sell all the door equipment and outsource all of our doors.
> 
> Not only did this allow us to grow our sales, it increased our margins significantly. Turns out we were building doors more expensively than the specialized door company with a larger economy of scale.
> 
> Our quality increased and so did our profits.
> This is a win-win-win - the best kind of win.
> 
> - DS


Yep…


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## Ringwall

> "So, I'm not exactly a one man business. "
> 
> Well, ya kinda are. Who else has any talent or capital to bring to the business? A few teens or twenty something guys to provide semi-skilled labor on short notice to a non existing entity isn t exactly an operation.
> 
> "I am confident that with my knowledge of manufacturing and delivery I can copy the marketing system we used for the blinds."
> 
> Confidence is good, but don t let it become hubris - which you seem to be skirting. Marketing and selling are rather different disciplines from manufacturing. People are rarely good at both. And you can make the best damn widget in history, but if you don t sell any or enough or people just don t want widgets, all your best practices and efficient six sigma production lines are worthless.
> 
> Except, to the liquidators.
> 
> "I've ran the numbers and with the cost of the thermofoil material, I'm pretty sure I can do quite well."
> 
> Have you ? How do you know your cost assumptions are practical in the real world ? Or even remotely correct? More later - but I think you ve no idea based on other comments you ve made.
> 
> " to employ should we start making sales. "
> 
> This is a bit incongruous with your previous statement of confidence. Did you mean "when we have sales " ?
> 
> " Just don't want to invest a hundred grand in a machine that gets warm and presses down. "
> 
> You are sunk, and your ship hasn t left the dock. That s the business. Big machines that heat and press down. And it ain t set up for onesy twosy orders to makers, hobbyists, HGTV neophytes , and bargain seekers.
> 
> You don t honestly think you re the first person to have the idea to market to this crowd do you ? Isn t it reasonable to think a marketer at an established thermofoil producer already had this vision ?
> 
> I hope you want to invest many times that. You are not entering a business that is conducive to garage startups with tons of sweat equity and little cash.
> 
> "*Home Depot ended up being the cheapest*"
> 
> You ll learn why soon enough in school, but here s the no cost exec. summary:
> volume, volume , volume. And they squeeze their supply chain for every point they can get. You will have none of those at your disposable. And you re not even looking to be in the volume game. Again, your plan has flaws.
> 
> "And the doors they made are incredible."
> 
> Perhaps. To the moderately discerning , they are crap.  There s a market for them., but it s big cost sensitive jobs like apartments, commercial ect…. Again , not your expressed target market.
> 
> " do you not think it would be capable of cutting MDF doors though, that's literally all I would be cutting? "
> 
> It s not that we don think you / it can cut MDF doors. We think it s not the correct tool to allow you to cut enough doors , quickly enough, for long enough to be profitable.
> 
> And how much are you planning to invest in dust collection and compressed air? Gonna take a lot of both to run that operation and neither are inexpensive.
> 
> Seriously, go to Woodweb. That s where the professional cabinet manufacturers are. But , be warned - they are not a touchy feelie bunch.
> 
> - xedos


They are not the touchy feely type? I came to ask if anyone knew about thermofoil and got a sentence by sentence analysis of my business plan and subjective review of my personality. I can't imagine it being much worse. But thanks.


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## Ringwall

> I once helped setup a brand new custom cabinet shop from scratch with a $1M budget.
> We set up a state of the art (for the time) door manufacturing department.
> 
> We opened our doors with a 6 week backlog of orders and before long we were doing $3.5M annual sales. The problem was, we were headed towards $5M annual sales and had no more room to expand.
> 
> We had already bought out the next door neighbor's building and joined them together to meet this volume and there just wasn't anymore real estate to grow.
> 
> The answer to meet our expansion was to sell all the door equipment and outsource all of our doors.
> 
> Not only did this allow us to grow our sales, it increased our margins significantly. Turns out we were building doors more expensively than the specialized door company with a larger economy of scale.
> 
> Our quality increased and so did our profits.
> This is a win-win-win - the best kind of win.
> 
> YMMV
> 
> - DS


Sounds great. How did you make all those sales before opening. I could use that advice, lol.


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## Ringwall

> So, this is an interesting subject.
> 
> The thing to understand about Cabinet door manufacturing is that cabinet doors generally, and thermofoil doors specifically, are a commodity business. The companies that thrive are getting into fairly large volumes in order to drive the cost down.
> 
> There is very little advantage in B2B sales for a cabinet company to buy thermofoil doors from a boutique operation at a higher cost.
> When you sell something largely by the square foot, your price per square foot is what will set you apart from other companies.
> 
> That said, if you have the sales potential, there is no good business model that I am aware of that would not use state of the art industrial equipment in order to produce cost effectively.
> 
> The membrane press is expensive and occupies lots of real estate for what it does, but is essential for success.
> 
> A high end CNC router that can adequately keep up with that press is also essential.
> 
> As far as "how fast do you need to route mdf doors?", the answer is "as fast as possible". I would be using high speed tooling in an industrial CNC router to cut upwards to 1000ipm. An entry level machine might cut only 350 to 400 ipm.
> 
> If you can get an extra 20% of daily volume from the faster machine, that might give you a slight edge over your competitor.
> 
> As someone who has bought and resold hundreds of thousands of outsourced cabinet doors, hopefully I've able to help you some.
> 
> - DS


Thanks for the CNC advice. Makes good sense to me.


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## Mike_D_S

> They are not the touchy feely type? I came to ask if anyone knew about thermofoil and got a sentence by sentence analysis of my business plan and subjective review of my personality. I can t imagine it being much worse. But thanks.
> 
> - Ringwall


Ringwall,

Don't take it personally, most of the people here aren't against you. What you're seeing is the some distilled advice and guidance across an imperfect communication medium.

*Most* of those that gave advice aren't really attacking your business plan or the concept in general. You essentially asked about thermofoil, which is serious production tooling, and the Yeti CNC which is definitely not serious production tooling in the context of running a cabinet door business. For a lot of us (myself included) this gets translated to a perception (correct or not) that you may not have a lot of experience with building the product in question at scale.

So from that viewpoint, it's not surprising that you got a range of responses which all essentially boil down to some version of "are you really sure you want to do that". Not because we think you personally aren't capable of running a business, but because you didn't seem to have a good handle on production methods and costs for the product you are proposing to make and no one wants to see you throw away money learning lessons that others have learned.

If you solely looking for technical advice, then I don't have any experience with thermofoil, but can add to the CNC discussion.

Machine feed rates are very important, but there are several other factors that directly impact effective output. You also need to think about material loading/unloading, work holding, tool changing and dust collection.

A machine that cuts 1000 ipm is great, but if you're loading and unloading by hand, manually clamping, and changing tooling manually then all that fast cut speed won't result in significant effective production rates. Add on vacuum work holding, automatic tool changes, and automatic stock load/unload and now you're starting to get max value from the machine. Of course now you're also getting into machine costs well in excess of $100k.

And all that machine speed still requires a certain level of human interaction, so factor in a full time CNC operator in order to load raw sheets, stack finished parts, check tolerances, dispose of waste, maintain the machine, etc.

And initially you'll need a CAD/CAM guy to create the cut files optimized for your machine

Hopefully that give you some better perspective on what a production CNC process might entail.

Mike


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## JAAune

Something alluded to in Mike's post but not specifically named is the concept of "takt time". How many parts per hour need to be produced to meet customer demand? If you're selling 8 doors a day and working 8 hour days, takt time is 1 door per hour.

The slowest process in the manufacturing line must take no longer than the takt time otherwise it's impossible to meet demand.

Of course takt time is usually used by companies that have every workstation running simultaneously. Calculations need to be adjusted if multiple processes are being handled by a single person.


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## Ringwall

> They are not the touchy feely type? I came to ask if anyone knew about thermofoil and got a sentence by sentence analysis of my business plan and subjective review of my personality. I can t imagine it being much worse. But thanks.
> 
> - Ringwall
> 
> Ringwall,
> 
> Don t take it personally, most of the people here aren t against you. What you re seeing is the some distilled advice and guidance across an imperfect communication medium.
> 
> *Most* of those that gave advice aren t really attacking your business plan or the concept in general. You essentially asked about thermofoil, which is serious production tooling, and the Yeti CNC which is definitely not serious production tooling in the context of running a cabinet door business. For a lot of us (myself included) this gets translated to a perception (correct or not) that you may not have a lot of experience with building the product in question at scale.
> 
> So from that viewpoint, it s not surprising that you got a range of responses which all essentially boil down to some version of "are you really sure you want to do that". Not because we think you personally aren t capable of running a business, but because you didn t seem to have a good handle on production methods and costs for the product you are proposing to make and no one wants to see you throw away money learning lessons that others have learned.
> 
> If you solely looking for technical advice, then I don t have any experience with thermofoil, but can add to the CNC discussion.
> 
> Machine feed rates are very important, but there are several other factors that directly impact effective output. You also need to think about material loading/unloading, work holding, tool changing and dust collection.
> 
> A machine that cuts 1000 ipm is great, but if you re loading and unloading by hand, manually clamping, and changing tooling manually then all that fast cut speed won t result in significant effective production rates. Add on vacuum work holding, automatic tool changes, and automatic stock load/unload and now you re starting to get max value from the machine. Of course now you re also getting into machine costs well in excess of $100k.
> 
> And all that machine speed still requires a certain level of human interaction, so factor in a full time CNC operator in order to load raw sheets, stack finished parts, check tolerances, dispose of waste, maintain the machine, etc.
> 
> And initially you ll need a CAD/CAM guy to create the cut files optimized for your machine
> 
> Hopefully that give you some better perspective on what a production CNC process might entail.
> 
> Mike
> 
> - MikeDS


Firstly, Mike, I appreciate everything you've said. But some these posts were extremely personal that was the problem. I am only responding to the one or two that are completely out of line. That being said, and you gave good advice as well, but if you recall in my first post I said that was researching cabinet doors and CNC machines and was investigating the yeti machine which brought me to this forum. I asked if anyone had experience with CNC machines for this purpose, software and importing thermofoil machines. I never said I had decided on the Yeti, not that I had spent more than an hour investigating it. What I got was a host of random responses, most of them not answering the question. I don't mind a seasoned pro giving their two cents worth if they feel it's a bad business to get into, but I didn't share my business model and wasn't asking for business advise. I was seeking technical advice. That's all I'm saying. You're saying I don't have a good handle on the production method…. That's literally why I came here. I have no handle on it. Just like I knew nothing about blinds before I built up a shop that supplied skyscrapers. And we started with the cheapest crappiest used table. I learned the crap out of the business and we grew from there.

am researching tools and process. I do appreciate causionary advice, but the problem here is that thermofoil is only serious production tooling because it isn't produced cheaply for the masses. from what I can see people are assuming because I want thermofoil that I intend on cranking out trillions of doors and haven't forseen the complications. I look

And obviously I haven't seen all of them, which is why I came here. But in the time since I made this post I've spoken to several manufacturers in China, the CEO of one of the larger American companies. And I've ordered a half dozen thermofoil samples. And the only advice I've gotten regarding my question, other than business advise, is that the yeti is a prosumer product. Awesome. I was looking at it because I want to start small and liked the form factor. But know I know that it's probably not enough. That being said I'm not in the market for 100,000 machine right now as I'm just starting out. 
Finally, and I really don't wish to talk about my business plan here as that's not why I posted, I'm in Canada. We are a completely different market than I'm guessing most of these posts are from. You can't compare doing business in Texas to Toronto. We have a crazy reno and real estate industry, and very little competition. And xedos the dude who said he doesn't have faith in my numbers… And that I don't know squat, Yadi Yadi yadada. That's what I'm talking about fudge if I care what he thinks about my numbers, that is just about the most pretentious and irrelevant thing I've ever heard. He knows jack about me, and if he thinks he understands anything about my knowledge or abilities based on a response I made on my cellphone while on the potty, than his investigative and deductive logic are about as relevant to me as what I was doing on that said potty. He says to me you are sunk before my ship has left the dock, and you'll learn this soon in school… I mean give me a damned break. Xedos, do you own a door manufacturing business, that uses thermofoil? No? Are you a professor of economics in a course that I'm enrolled in? No? Are you angry because you've worked for guys like me for years, and always knew you could do better? I have no idea, but only someone really angry would talk like that to an innocent stranger, who came to a forum and asked a question.

And for the record when I mentioned Home Depot before I wasn't saying I attended to compete with home Depot. I was simply saying that's where I became interested in thermofoil. Anyways. I'm definately doing this business because I've crunched the numbers and I have faith I can make them work. The question is what CNC, software and thermofoil machine. Which supplies. Am I buying or renting a warehouse, etc..

Anyways, thank you for your input. I'm. It upset, I was just taking offence to the handful of mean spirited and unhelpful replies. People spend 100,000 retrofitting tiny coffee shops that go out of business weekly. A 10-30 thousand dollar CNC and another 20-30 thousand dollar thermofoil is really a fairly small business investment to be able to produce a product I can sell for thousands. Even if I did 4 kitchens in a month, the materials are cheap. And like DS said, if it sells like crazy I can buy the guys next door. Worse case scenario I sell the machines and I've really not lost that much. 
So back to technical stuff, if you have a recommendation for an entry level machine I'm all ears. I'd like to be able to print one kitchen in a day. Just the doors If it can do that I can make money.

I'm not getting a cad guy. I'm looking at software specific for cabinet doors of which there are many with Preprogrammed profiles.. I'm experienced enough with cad and cnc to get it up and running. Now if someone knows something about thermofoil other than that the machine is big and pricey, I'm all ears, but like anything else. It's just a big toy that does a basic job. A CNC machine seems to be a thousand times more advanced and complicated. I bet you if someone made a desktop thermofoil machine the way they do CNC and laser cutters kids would be thermofoiling their phone cases.

Anyways, just again for anyone else reading here. I appreciate the business advice. Just not what I'm looking for. And if this is not the right forum I'll check out the other recommended forum.


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## Ringwall

> Not everyone needs a 100 options…
> 
> Sorry it s a no sale here…
> 
> - JackDuren


Yeah, this is my point. People are saying how can you compete with a million square foot warehouse? That is not even ballpark to what I'm trying to do. Just google Ikea hacks and see how many websites offer custom Ikea doors. These are small companies that make a killing. These guys suggesting becoming middlemen are the reason I'm going into the business. I don't like middlemen they just add expense and complication between the product and the consumer. I like the idea of something small and boutique. Especially during covid when people are loving on local and small. Just check out the Etsy stock prices.


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## JAAune

> So back to technical stuff, if you have a recommendation for an entry level machine I m all ears. I d like to be able to print one kitchen in a day. Just the doors If it can do that I can make money.
> 
> - Ringwall


Kitchen sizes vary a lot. It would be helpful if you can define 1 kitchen as a number of doors per day or a number of 4'x8' sheets of mdf per day.

I'm skeptical of software with preprogrammed profiles. MDF door cutting requires basic 2D cut routines using properly shaped cutters that match the profiles. Anything that requires a tiny stepover and a small ballnose cutter to create the profile will turn a 30 second cut into a 10 minute cut. VCarve Pro and the right tooling should be all you need.

Since you're Canadian, check out AXYZ machines. They have super-efficient dust collection boots that make it possible to get near 100% dust collection using a shop vac or a Dust Cobra if you need more airflow. They're perfect for MDF. New might be too expensive but used machines can be affordable. We have an old AXYZ 4008 5'x8'. The catch is AXYZ's 2000 era proprietary Toolpath software is terrible (never tried new versions) so obsolete machines need to be upgraded to be compatible with standard gcode output from popular CAM software.


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## Mike_D_S

Sounds like you've got it all figured out. Go get a Laguna Swift with vacuum table and you're good to go.


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## xedos

Ring - I wasn't attacking you. Personally or otherwise. That you felt so is insightful. Perhaps you don't yet have the temperament to run a business ? Constructive criticism is not an attack. Suggesting this isn't the best place to get what you seek , and referrals to other sources is not an attack.

Your comments come off like someone looking for shortcuts. What makes you think you can take the elevator ? This is a discussion forum; and people are usually happy to offer advice , but they also expect something in return. So far you're contributing little and don't want to engage in a discussion. You seem to only want answers to your question(s).

Regarding questioning your #'s and not knowing you - get used to it. If you go seeking capital from sources other than your family, the people on the other side of the table won't know you and they WILL question your numbers. Even if they know you.

It was pretty much a given you were in the USA or Canada. That's where this forum's members are from. Matters little for the business you describe. Boomtowns exist in both countries, and I think you said you're looking ship, so you're customers are potentially everywhere.

I think you are missing -or- ignoring some of the best advice you've gotten here. Perhaps it's cuase you're multitasking, or the fan is too loud in your office ?


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## JackDuren

His question was simple enough….

Simply got twisted by others…


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## xedos

He helpEd facilitate that by not taking your advice; asking over on woodweb, and being a bit argumentative when no one came out and said buy "x" cnc and " y " thermompress in his price range.

Lots of folks would like the benefits of a franchise esque solution without all the drawbacks.


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## DS

It was an expansion deal. 
There were already contracts and sales in place from our parent company, who was reselling stock cabinetry and outsourcing the custom work.
This brought the custom work in house. The outsource contract was ending and it was a good opportunity to open a custom shop.

Overall, the company was selling in the low to mid $20M annual sales and installations, but only a portion was custom work.
It's a good gig if you can get it.



> I once helped setup a brand new custom cabinet shop from scratch with a $1M budget.
> We set up a state of the art (for the time) door manufacturing department.
> 
> We opened our doors with a 6 week backlog of orders and before long we were doing $3.5M annual sales. The problem was, we were headed towards $5M annual sales and had no more room to expand.
> 
> We had already bought out the next door neighbor's building and joined them together to meet this volume and there just wasn't anymore real estate to grow.
> 
> The answer to meet our expansion was to sell all the door equipment and outsource all of our doors.
> 
> Not only did this allow us to grow our sales, it increased our margins significantly. Turns out we were building doors more expensively than the specialized door company with a larger economy of scale.
> 
> Our quality increased and so did our profits.
> This is a win-win-win - the best kind of win.
> 
> YMMV
> 
> - DS
> 
> Sounds great. How did you make all those sales before opening. I could use that advice, lol.
> 
> - Ringwall


----------



## DS

We've all kinda just glossed over the issues you will face.

I agree whole heartedly that it takes more than just a couple of expensive machines in your shop.
You can't underestimate the value of proper material handling.

I came to think of the entire shop as a single well-tuned machine.
One cabinets' worth of raw materials coming into the receiving dock while precisely one finished cabinet exiting the out the loading dock, with all the in-between processes moving in synch with that.

No bottlenecks, no log jambs of materials in the way. Everything had a predefined pathway through the shop. People, product, paperwork, everything.

Obviously, this is over simplification, but that is the ideology that will lead to peak production efficiency.


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## DS

BTW, the owner of the company started the company in his 2 bedroom rented apartment in 1986 and built it up year over year until he sold it for 8 figures in 2007. I knew him from the very beginning and came on board in 1998.


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## DS

There is production software that will produce mdf doors for thermofoil.

They are not cheap, ($15k to $30k), but, you can define the parameters of your door and then just enter a door size list and it will automatically create your nested sheets and toolpaths.

Aspire is NOT such software, FYI. 
It can do it onesey twosey, but if you want to do hundreds, or even thousands of doors daily, look at Cabinetvision mdf door maker, microvellum, kcd, to name a few.

Once the door profiles are defined, it is a matter of entering your door list and running the optimizer.
You can even import pre-made lists and optimize directly.

Hope you are making steady progress towards your goals.


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## ChiloquinRuss

http://www.cabinetpartspro.com/ Is awesome very mature software and cheap, $250. Support is excellent. Russ


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## Wags999

Remember most of the thermofoil doors are two pass or 4 pass, with square inside corners…not an easy task without proper equipment. Either have to jump in with both feet or stay extremely small, not much middle ground. Extremely small would mean more custom, which is hard with thermofoil.

Let us know what you decide and hope if you decide to jump in, it's a huge success. Good Luck.


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## xedos

I suspect it's a non starter.

Ringwall seems to believe there is a market for a small sized thermofoil operation that could start on a shoestring. Perhaps he's right. But it's unlikely as the odds are against it.


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## DS

There is a type of door that may fit the small to medium shop model of operation.
It is not Rigid Thermofoil, but, rather it is synchronized melamine.

It is made very similar to a typical 5 piece door, but needs no finishing.

The door works because of the edge bander used, which is a laser glueless bander. 
The seam is totally invisible and allows a good bond to an irregular edge (from the textured melamine)










There are several options for synchronized melamine out there and they can be very durable and very impressive when done right.

I've done some very nice projects using this type of door.

Food for thought.


----------

