# Pros and Cons of using a Pre-Stain Conditioner



## andy_P

I finally gave in to the theory of using a pre-stain product when staining "soft" woods. I used MinWax Pre-Stain Conditioner and followed the directions closely. I applied the stain to a picture frame made of Soft Maple with Mesquite, Sasafras and Cancharana accents. Outside of the Soft Maple none of the other woods would normally need a conditioner but there was no way of keeping from applying the conditioner to the entire frame.

The first thing that I noticed is that the conditioner alone darkened the woods. Because you need to apply the stain to the conditioned woods within two hours, I really don't know if a complete drying would have lightened the wood.

Bottom line is that I found that after applying the stain, MinWax Oil Stain in Aged Oak color, the Maple still looked blotchy and the over all look of the piece was much darker than I had intended to be.

I have a long way to go before using up the one pint of conditioner that I purchased, but I think next time I will give the Zinzer product a try.

Anyone have any thoughts experiences or anything else to share along these lines?


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## TheDane

I have used Charles Neil's Blotch Control ( http://charlesneilwoodworking.3dcartstores.com/Charles-Neils-Pre-Color-Conditioner--Blotch-Control_p_47.html ) with excellent results, particularly on softer woods.

One thing I did discover (with Charles' product, anyway) is that you should not over-sand. The first product I used it on was a pine monitor riser that I sanded to 600-grit, then stained with a gel stain. Results were terrible.

After conferring with Charles (he is great about answering emails and offering help), I sanded it back to bare wood (with 60-grit to get rid of the stain), then sanded up through the grits to 180, re-applied blotch control and re-stained it … results were terrific. I gave it several coats of lacquer (scuff-sanding between coats), and the finish has a shine a foot deep that is hard as a rock.

-Gerry


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## andy_P

thanks for the information, Gerry.


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## Fuzzy

+1 for Charles Neil's Blotch Control … watch the videos on his website for tips on using it … it is great stuff.

Using his product reminds me of some of the custom car finishes back in the 60's. Back then, it was popular to lay down a gold of silver metal flake base or, maybe a pearl base coat, then topcoat it with candy apple colors.

With Charles' product, you apply two coats of his conditioner, then apply colorant (dyes are preferred) to his product. Very little, if any of the dye ever gets into the wood … you are essentially coloring his product, which is protecting the wood from absorbing the dye, which is the cause of blotching. The really neat thing about this is, you can make full use of your lumber, completely ignoring the presence of sapwood, because once the dye goes on, the sapwood blends right in and disappears.


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## TheDane

Fuzzy-2 great things about CN's Blotch Control:

1) It works as advertised

2) If you have questions or need help/suggestions, Charles answers emails promptly and completely. No BS

-Gerry


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## andy_P

I tried to watch Charles' video both from his website and directly from YouTube but can't get any sound. I wrote to him and hopfully he can somehow send me a video as an attachment that I can play. Wow, look at that YouTube site for finishing hints and you get as many opinions as there are trees in the forrest.


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## BillWhite

I avoid MinWax whenever possible. I just don't think that the product is designed for quality seal/stain/finish processes.
I am also a great advocate of using shellac as a wood conditioner. Quick dry time and reversable.
There are lots of dyes/stains/finishes that will yield great results.
Zinsser Seal Coat is a wonder sealer to be used prior to staining.
JMHO.
Bill


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## andy_P

Thanks for your input, Bill. I'm assuming you meant de-waxed shellac. Yes, I have heard good things about Zinsser products. My problem is living in a rural area I have to depend on getting things shipped in to me. Our local Home Depot and Lowe's usually just carries the Big name products such as MinWax…etc. I'm really interested in chasing down more info regarding the Charles Neil products.


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## TheDane

Andy-Give this link a shot ( 



 ) ... I just tried it and it played audio & video just fine.

-Gerry


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## ocwoodworker

I did the same thing you did. It was soooo frustrating to buy a blotch control only to have the pre-stain blotch your wood!!!! Used Charles Neil stuff after asking on the forum. Can't speak more highly of it. Works great!!


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## andy_P

Gerry---Same thing. No Sound but no problems with other videos on the same site. I sent an email to Charles. Maybe he can send me the video as an attachement to the email.

Kevin--- I really appreciate your comments. It is good to know someone else has had the exact same situation.


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## Fuzzy

hmmm … I just watched the video on that link, and it worked fine …


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## andy_P

I don't understand it, but I was able to watch the video on my wife's computer. Neil is not the best spokesman in the world. He sure knows his stuff but explains things in a sort of drawn out way that leaves you wondering what he is geting at. Regardless, the product looks great and I am going to give it a try.


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## TheDane

Andy … You will not be sorry.

-Gerry


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## andy_P

cr1 …..I'm beginning to get that impression. I've had quite a few problems with their stuff over the years. Everything from old products still on shelves to my latest with the Pre-Stain. I bought a quart of gel stain once and the stuff was so old it hardly spread. They did send me a replacement can of stain. I will say that they do respond to emails and questions.


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## wildbill001

My local Orange box store has shellac, Zinser I believe, but it is over by the paint, not the stain. You have to really look for it. Of course, YMMV. But ask the paint-dept. critter if they have it. I usually also get a pint of alcohol to dilute so I can make "spit coat" (love that name) concentrations.

Bill


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## Builder_Bob

Count me as another vote against Minwax.

I bought their products. I assumed they worked as advertised. I wanted them to work.

They have taught me otherwise. I've had great results from General Finishes.

Wax free shellac? Good stuff.


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## TheDane

I'm in agreement with Builder_Bob on General Finishes.

The only downside to them is there is no local dealer, so I have to order them and pay shipping.

Their website lists two 'dealers' in our area, but neither of them sell to the general public.

-Gerry


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## andy_P

Thought you would get a kick out of this. I wrote to Minwax about my experience and got the response I expected…...... The Maple I was using must have had an extremely varied pore structure. They researched and found no other complaints about their Pre-stain. They suggested I put two coats of Pre-stain on the project and use their Gel Stain next time.

I did not bother to respond with the fact that, if they wanted to hear some complaints about their products, they should take a look at Lumberjocks.

Anyway, Those pictures up there is what I ended up with.


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## TheDane

It's always the wood's fault … or the way it was milled … or the guy that did the finishing … or it was cloudy outside …

At least, with Charles, if you have a problem or question, he is there for you.

-Gerry


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## andy_P

I was waiting for a response from a Woodcraft store in Tucson, AZ that Charles did a demonstration at. He said he left some of the product there and I was hoping if they shipped it to me, it would be a little cheaper. I guess I might as well bite the bullet and order it from Charles and get a couple or three of the quarts to make the shipping worth while.


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## DannyB

FWIW, I've used mohawk's pre-stain base/etc (the same purpose) before, and it works wonderfully to control blotching. These are professional products however. As everyone else said, minwax is basically crap 

If i ever make something and my wife wants a minwax color, ml campbell has their professional stain base available in minwax colors.

I think almost every woodworker has at least one bad minwax experience, and then never makes it again


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## Dusty56

First of all , Soft Maple isn't a "soft wood" ie: Pine , Spruce , etc..
I never had any issues using the MinWax on the Pine projects that I had stained in the past. 
I'm sure there are better products out there , but I never had to seek them out.
Why did you want to stain over the accent pieces as well as the Maple ? 
I would have pre-stained the Maple before adding any accent woods to it , not that I would have tried to make Maple look like Oak in the first place.
You can see in your pictures how the Maple grain swirls in and out in every direction , flat grain , end grain , side grain , knot areas , etc.. 
Maple is a difficult wood to stain and a lot of people have switched over to dyes instead of stains because of it.
I don't think you can blame the outcome on the MinWax alone.


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## andy_P

Thanks for the information, DannyB, on Mohawk. I'll keep that in mind.

Dusty, thanks for all your insight on what I did wrong and what I should have done. Believe me. I wish I would have thought of staining only the Maple or better yet, not staining at all but leaving it natural and merely using the finishing coat accentuating the Mesquite, Sassafras and Cancherana trim. And, yes, I know that Soft Maple is not a soft wood. And, I was not trying to make the maple look like oak. If I wanted that I would have used the oak I have in my shop. I was just trying to add some color to the piece. The artist that I made the frame for thought it was absolutely beautiful and paid me quite well for the effort. Here is the finished product hung in the end buyers home. She too was quite happy with the finished item and in turn paid the artist quite handsomely.

Bottom line: I started this post to get some feedback on the use of the Pre-Stain. It was well worth it. I got a lot of good constructive ideas from several people and I appreciate them all. I even learned about products I did not know existed. Unlike Dusty, the majority of people here do not treat others as* "morons"* because their ideas do not follow the norm that he has idealistically established in his own mind*...........take a look at his signature line.*


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## stnich

As with any product there is a time and place for it. I use MinWax products all the time but I am selective as to what product I use with certain woods. For example I use their penetrating wood finish on wood like 
Oak and Ash. I get great results with the wood finish product. I'll use their gel stain on woods that are prone to blotching and also have good results. I also use their latex stains with good results. Their water based 
wood conditioner is a different animal then the oil based conditioner. The sanding protocol can have a
major impact on how a stain performs on wood. Just my thoughts.


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## Dusty56

"Anyone have any thoughts experiences or anything else to share along these lines?"
"Outside of the Soft Maple none of the other woods would normally need a conditioner but ".......
This was the reason for my first sentence. 
Then I stated my experiences with the MinWax product. 
Then I asked you what I thought was a very simple question.
Then I offered you a suggestion for future reference.
Then I pointed out how the grain in the Maple was going every which way but straight.
Then I offered a possible choice for next time you want to stain Maple. 
And finally , as stated , I couldn't blame the MinWax for all of the issues you had considering the type of wood used.
Sorry my comments didn't make you happy , Andy. 
I answered your question with my experiences with Maple and also the proper use of the MinWax product on *soft woods*.

My signature line is a funny quote from a famous person and I'm sorry if you took it personally. I change my signature as often as I find something that I think will make others laugh ,or at least smile. I have received several PMs and comments from others that enjoy my signatures , including this one.The problem with the written word is that you can't know how it was intended to be interpreted by the author. Some people take things too seriously while I choose to see the humor in life. My comments were not directed to you with any ill will against you or your project.

In the end , your project is being enjoyed by someone that doesn't even know what "blotchiness" means. 
Have a great day, Andy : )


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## andy_P

Thanks, Stnich and Dusty for your comments.

Dusty, you are absolutely right. Many times using a medium like this does not allow for the reader to understand the true meaning of what is written.


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## yooper

I have successfully used these types of prestain conditioner several times - pine and cherry. To be effective, you have to let them dry overnight and then add your stain. Saturating the wood and waiting 10 or 20 min like the can says does not work!


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## Dusty56

If I could have spoken the words to you Andy , you would have heard a whole different message : )
Peace and Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours !


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## andy_P

yooper, that makes sense to me. I could not figure out why MinWax says to just wait a short time. Glad you have had success with the product. All said and done, I am going to give Charles Niel's product a try. He has a pretty convincing video and from the responses I have received, he has a great following.

Dusty, ditto from me.


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## ArlinEastman

Andy
I only have used Minwax pre conditioner on pine and waited for 4 hours before applying again then staining. It came out fine. I have heard that Minwax works best on soft woods Conifers and such
Arlin


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## andy_P

Thanks for the input, Arlin.


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