# Need recommendations for a good clear coat



## Chuck77 (Nov 13, 2017)

Hi everybody,
I'm new to the group. I've been reading these forums for years but have never posted. So I know there's a lot of excellent advice out there.

I've recently started building and selling hardwood beds online. They're selling like hot cakes. I'm mostly using cherry, walnut, mahogany or white oak.
The beds are looking great but like many woodworkers my weak link is finishing. I don't stain my beds, I use clear coat to bring out the natural beauty of the wood. I have been using General Finishes satin top coat to this point. I've been getting descent results but they could be better, especially with the price I'm charging. These are my complaints with what I'm using (General Finishes satin top coat) 
It gets extremely sticky while I'm still spreading it so it becomes a sticky mess while it's going on. The stop and start marks are really obvious and hard to avoid. It's a gel so it goes on pretty thick so no running but it's tough to get it nice and clean. If I don't smooth it out perfectly it puddles up and dries and leaves build up spots in some areas. This requires sanding to fix before the next coat. 
I like that it is not glossy, and it doesn't smell too bad (this is huge with the customers).

I'm probably just dreaming but I'd like to find something that is easier to use and gives great results (for a finishinng novice like myself). I don't have the facilities to spray at this point so hand rubbing only. I really can't have something that smells very strong after 24-48 hours.

Anyway, if anybody has a good suggestion I'd love to hear what everybody else likes to use. Thanks in advance for any secrets you can pass along. I do appreciate it. 
Thanks,
Chuck in San Diego


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## pintodeluxe (Sep 12, 2010)

Welcome to Lumberjocks!

Limiting yourself to wipe on finishes may be an issue for even a small production shop. It's not that you can't get a good finish with a wipe on top coat… you can. However it will take many more man-hours to complete each project.

All of the problems you mention are solved readily with even the most basic HVLP conversion gun and a mid sized compressor. Clear shellac sprays well, and looks nice on natural finishes. It is my favorite on walnut. I tried wiping on shellac and I absolutely hated it. Spray the same product and it comes out fantastic.

Pre-cat lacquer is my all-time favorite to spray. I know I'm not answering your question the way you asked, but if it were me, I'd look seriously into spraying. Especially beds! I can't imagine wiping finish on a whole bed!


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

I didn't know for sure which GF finish you were using until you mentioned gel. GF Gel Topcoat is a nightmare in my opinion. It's fine for small boxes and things, but as soon as you're trying to wipe it over a large area it's a gummy mess as you said. I tried it on a table top and was not happy. As soon as it hardened, I sanded it smooth and went back to Arm-R-Seal.

Willie is right about spraying. It's the best way to go for production, and lacquer is a dream to work with. Since you can't spray, I'd give Arm-R-Seal a try. It's reasonably priced by the gallon, and with a rag you can wipe down a large surface quickly. Unlike the gel, it will spread quickly and easily unless you're using it in a super hot and dry environment. It sands nicely between coats as well.

Any oil based urethane will retain some odor until it fully cures, but Arm-R-Seal is one of the better performers in that respect based on my experience.

Be sure to hang the soaked rags to dry and don't toss them in a pile.

I'm curious how you're selling hardwood beds online. Isn't shipping a nightmare? Do you have a web site? I'd love to see your work.


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## Andybb (Sep 30, 2016)

For ease, a small investment and low mess you might consider HVLP and a thinned water based poly like Varathane. The HF system is the same as the one Rockler used to sell, comes with 3 tips and works very well. You could finish with multiple coats and be done in one day. I too would love to see your online site.


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## Manitario (Jul 4, 2010)

If you're doing this as a job, where time and efficiency are key, then I agree with the others; spraying is the way to go. What you spend in startup cost in getting a sprayer, setting up a space for it etc. will be paid back in time saved.

If you're just doing this on the side as a hobby to make a bit of money; nothing beats the speed and easy of wipe on finishes. Probably the easiest, quickest finish outside of spraying is a danish oil type finish. Wipe on a generous coat, wait 10 min and wipe off. Repeat in 24 hours and you're done.


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## AandCstyle (Mar 21, 2012)

Chuck, I think you have 2 requirements that tend to eliminate oil based products: no smell and out the door in 24-48 hours. I like Arm-R-Seal a lot, but it is oil based and needs a week to cure enough for light use and a month for complete cure.

This means you need to use a water borne product. I haven't used the Varathane that Andy mentioned, but it might meet your needs if it can be applied without spraying. I have used Target Coatings EM6000 and really like it because it is very forgiving as a sprayed product. However, it can also be applied with a brush. It flows out nicely to give a smooth finish and each coat "burns in" to the previous coat so there are no witness lines. If you go this route, you should also consider using Target's WR4000 which contains linseed oil to help pop the grain. Even though contains oil it is water borne and dries quickly with little odor.

HTH and good luck.


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## Andybb (Sep 30, 2016)

> I haven t used the Varathane that Andy mentioned, but it might meet your needs if it can be applied without spraying.
> 
> - AandCstyle


People speak highly of the Target products also. I have used both. The Varathane can be applied nicely with a foam brush. The reason I prefer the Varathane is because it is readily available at Home Depot and is less expensive and seems to dry quicker. You could always start with a quick wipe on coat of Zinzer shellac to help with the "pop" then apply the Varathane or the Target. I spent a week about a year ago making all kinds of OCD type comparisons here including the Target products. Made my head spin and settled on the Varathane. A lot of Luthiers use it also. It's made for floors and is very durable. If I want a satin finish I apply a few coats of gloss then a final coat of satin.

If I'm not spraying Deft lacquer from a can on smaller projects I've migrated to water based finishes. Finishing is my least favorite step in a project. With wb I can be done in a day vs a week with oil based. Water cleanup and no smell. You can also add a little Trans Tint wb dye for a little color.

Also, don't judge or mess with the finish of wb after you first apply it. Don't go over it like oil based to smooth it out. Let it dry.

Good luck.


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## Chuck77 (Nov 13, 2017)

Lots of good points being made here. Thank you!

The more I think about it the more obvious it becomes. I need to be spraying. Funny thing is, I already own two HVLP spray guns. I got a Husky set about a year ago to paint a lego table. Used it once and put it away. I think I'll start getting into spraying. 
So now my questions are (and some of this has probably already been answered) what type of finish should I be spraying? I don't have the week tona month to let things cure. I typically have about 2-3 days once the building process is complete to finish it and ship it. And it really shouldn't arrive at the customers house smelling like a chemical refinery. It sounds like I should go water-based, correct? Sounds like Varathane has some potential.

As far as a spray area goes, what are some considerations I'd need to think about? I have a nice area just outside my wood shop where I can spray. Thats probably a good spot since it'll keep the spraying outdoors in a ventilated area and away from my machinery.

I'd imagine I'd need to cover the walls and floor in that area with a thick plastic (to keep from covering it all with overspray.

Is it best to hang the pieces while spraying them? I'd love to hear about some spray area set up ideas if someone would like to share.

While hand-rubbing finishes I use a 3M half-face respirator with an organic vapor cartridge. Would this also work for spraying? I like to play it pretty safe with my lungs.

Thanks again for all the help guys.
Chuck


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## pontic (Sep 25, 2016)

I would also like to know this too. I think waterbase is the way to go. Will the first coat raise the grain significantly?


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## retfr8flyr (Oct 30, 2013)

I have had good luck using a 1# cut of de-waxed shellac for a prime coat, to raise and bring out the grain. A very light sanding to knock down any grain that raised and then shoot Target EM6000. The Shellac and EM6000 dry so quickly you can do most jobs in one day. I have a 10×10 pop up tent with sides that I use for painting. If it's nice out, I set it up outside but if the WX isn't conducive to painting, I just move a car out of the garage and set it up inside. It keeps overspray in check and keeps the finish clear from anything falling on it. I have limited space so this setup works well for me.


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## Andybb (Sep 30, 2016)

Not if you use shellac or if you give it a wipe with a moist cloth then a light sand before applying.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

You need a thinner slower drying coat.
Most wipe on finishes - aren't really great for large areas - - I am picturig doing a Queen size headboard with a rag.

A challenge is that you are in California, so a lot of products are not going to be available to you with the VOC requirements. But as you already see - - the stops and starts show up in your finish… so "Fast Drying" is your enemy - - the faster it dries, the worse that problem will be.

I would get a pint of GF Arm-R-Seal, 









Marc - The woodwhisperer - -did a 'Wiping Varnish Shootout' and looked at performance, clarity, durability and blotching etc…. I have and like Waterlox… but I think when I run out - I am likely to change to General Finishes.


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

+1 for pre-cat lacquer and spray on finishes.

The flash out is about 15 minutes and sanding and re-coat in 30 minutes.
It's a good idea to cure out 24 hours before shipping so most of the out-gassing is done.

Every major manufacturer I've seen uses either pre-cat lacquer, or conversion varnish for production finishing.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

I recently sprayed (cheap HVLP) a General Finishes water based poly on a headboard I refinished and worked great. Definitely a timesaver if time is money and the quality of the finish was much better than using a brush. I think I did 2 or 3 coats a day if I recall. However, for a high-end product, I would personally want a hand rubbed finish such as Tried and True Danish Oil or Varnish Oil. Takes about 10 times longer (more coats and 24 hour drying time) so not great for high volume but results in a less plastic look in my opinion.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Spraying large items, takes some skill - but it is the way to go in production…

However I have never had a problem with runs, sags, or Orange Peel, in a wiped on finish.

If you are looking for (or your customer wants) a 'wood' feel… they will like the results/look of the wiping varnish.


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## Andybb (Sep 30, 2016)

> It sounds like I should go water-based, correct? Sounds like Varathane has some potential.
> 
> - Chuck77


Correct IMO. Water based. If you already have an HVLP you are good to go. Like I said, Home Depot carries Varathane but nothing wrong with other products. 3-4 coats in a day and you are done. I like to wipe on some Zinnser shellac first then smooth with a white scotch brite pad then wipe down with a moist rag. If you want a satin finish use gloss on all the coats then use satin as the last coat. After letting it harden overnight I like using brown then white scotch brite pads on a random orbit sander then buff with some automotive paste wax with a cheap Harbor freight buffer. I'm no expert but that is what works for me. Practice *the entire process* and learn your technique on some similar sized scrap. Here is a page with spraying techniques and patterns by Charles Neil. As far as a spray area goes, use your best judgement.

PS…I like to thin the Varathane with this stuff when I'm spraying it. Also available at Home depot.


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## Jobsworth (Nov 14, 2017)

I used to use all W/B products mainly Endure before they were bought by GF and since they bought them. However I started looking into solvent based finishes. I noticed that you are in SD. This company in OC specializes in furniture touch up repair and finishing.

Here is a link to their website. They will freely give advice with what products would work work best bot h W/B and Solvent Base finishes.

I suggest giving them a call and have a chat and the can point ou in the right direction, they also sell finishing equipment its where I bought my HVLP Turbine spray system, they also sell conversion guns.

https://woodrepairproducts.com


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## 01ntrain (Jun 21, 2015)

Why not just go with GF High Performance WB Topcoat? It's an easy, forgiving finish that you can put on with a good brush. I used Syntox by Purdy.

I used this finish on two Birch butcher-block countertops that I just installed for a customer. It does raise the grain in the beginning, but a good rubdown with 400grit will knock it down. I think you could do at least 3-4 coats in a day.

The thing with water-based is that it dries clear, not an amber color like oil-based. So it that's what you're looking for, you may need to consider a spray setup. Water-based is the way to go for me….it's essentially the same stuff that pros use on floors, and have been for years. It's durable, no fumes, and easy to use. Cleanup is a breeze.


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## OSU55 (Dec 14, 2012)

For production spraying is a must, as well as quick drying. Precat lacquer works great as long as the temp is above about 60F and you have excellent ventilation, otherwise it could become explosive. It does have a strong order while wet but will probably dissapate enough in 2-3 days that customers wont notice. I switched to wb since I finish a lot in the winter and couldnt ventilate enough.

I use Target EM6000 and EM9000 - depends on scratch and chemical resistance needed. All wb finishes look pretty drap and lifeless on their own. If coloring I use Target WR4000 stain base and transtint. A coat of shellac is used to seal the color to prevent lift and give more chatoyance. I use a coat of shellac for chatoyance if not coloring. WB is great to spray -almost no odor or danger (use a respirator due to atomization, not so mucchemicals). Doesnt dry as fast as solvent precat but pretty quick. You could develop 2 finish schedules - precat when warm enough and wb when cold.

For a spray booth I made roman type roll up blinds out of plastic attached to the ceiling. I just let drop down, spray, roll up out of the way. You need a blower to pull overspray away from the project. I use a small 800 cfm or so furnace blower


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## Chuck77 (Nov 13, 2017)

I know this is probably a dumb question but what is the "pop" you guys are referring to? (ie, making the grain "pop". 
Thanks,
Chuck

Picked up a nice, used craftsman air compressor today with a 33 gal tank so I can get to spraying.


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## Chuck77 (Nov 13, 2017)

OSU,
Good stuff.
So you add shellac if you're not going to stain to add the chatoyance. By chatoyance, I assume your referring to bringing out the natural beauty of the wood, correct? This is what I liked about the GF gel top coat. It sort of brought the wood to life when I'd spread it on. If I'm understanding you correctly, the water borne top coats will not do this, but I can use shellac first to accomplish this? And then top with the WB coat? Is shellac alone not a good enough top coat.
Thanks
Chuck


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## Andybb (Sep 30, 2016)

No such thing as a dumb question.



> OSU,
> Good stuff.
> So you add shellac if you're not going to stain to add the chatoyance. By chatoyance, I assume your referring to bringing out the natural beauty of the wood, correct? This is what I liked about the GF gel top coat. It sort of brought the wood to life when I'd spread it on. If I'm understanding you correctly, the water borne top coats will not do this, but I can use shellac first to accomplish this? And then top with the WB coat? Is shellac alone not a good enough top coat.
> Thanks
> ...


Yes. The "pop" / chatoyance is the color that the oil base brings out. The shellac will do that. No need for a compressor if you have even an inexpensive turbine. Someone else can speak to that better than I but I got better results with my cheapie HF system.



> I use Target EM6000 and EM9000 - depends on scratch and chemical resistance needed. All wb finishes look pretty drap and lifeless on their own. If coloring I use Target WR4000 stain base and transtint. A coat of shellac is used to seal the color to prevent lift and give more chatoyance. I use a coat of shellac for chatoyance if not coloring. WB is great to spray -almost no odor or danger (use a respirator due to atomization, not so mucchemicals). Doesnt dry as fast as solvent precat but pretty quick. You could develop 2 finish schedules - precat when warm enough and wb when cold.
> 
> For a spray booth I made roman type roll up blinds out of plastic attached to the ceiling. I just let drop down, spray, roll up out of the way. You need a blower to pull overspray away from the project. I use a small 800 cfm or so furnace blower
> 
> - OSU55


+1
Yes. This is the technique I would use with Varathane or Target. A box fan on high will work also.


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## OSU55 (Dec 14, 2012)

Chatoyance is not color it is an effect (or affect?). It has to do with light refraction through the film of the finish. The wood appears to almost "glow" when reflecting light. Look up catseye. I dont know the specifics but the physical properties of wb finishes do not allow the correct refraction of light, but solvent varnish, poly, blo, shellac, and lacquer do. I think it has to do with how the finish is emulsified in water as tiny drops that dont fully dissolve into one another in wb finishes, or the actual chemistry of the plastics used dont refract light in the right way. Target WR4000 stain base, an emulsified oil, does create the effect, so Im guessing. The effect is never as good with wb, but with a proper under coat wb can look pretty good. Coloring the wood can enhance the effect.


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## RJweb (Mar 12, 2011)

I agree with the others stay away from the wipe on products, would really like to see your website of the products you are selling, RJ


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## Chuck77 (Nov 13, 2017)

don't have my own proper website yet but I've got an etsy shop. Bnlhardwoodfurniture.etsy.com


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