# Work Bench Smack Down (part 2)



## Cricket

This thread is a continuation of our original work bench smack down thread.
http://lumberjocks.com/topics/31539

After 18428 replies to the original, we needed a fresh start.


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## jmartel

First post. Looking like I need to build a bench this spring. Not sure if I'll do a Roubo or a shaker style. Should have all the wood needed for the base already, and debating what to do for the top.


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## Hammerthumb

What kind of hardware you going to use, Jmart?

Maybe I can stop by and give you a hand with the heavy lifting.


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## r33tc0w

I'm 2.5yrs into my workbench build - 2 kids, moving to a new house and finally acquired some decent panel saws and bits/brace to finish assembly. Glued up a 2×6 with a 2×4 section for the top and totally screwed up the gluing so now I need to level off the upwards warp. Started to hand plane the warp out and lost patience and have since decided to create a router sled.

I feel like I find multiple projects to do in the middle of the original project - such is life


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## jmartel

> What kind of hardware you going to use, Jmart?
> 
> Maybe I can stop by and give you a hand with the heavy lifting.
> 
> - Hammerthumb


Most likely the Lee Valley tail vise screws I had on my previous bench from my townhouse. Already have them. Might get a new handwheel for them, but we'll see. I'd like to have benchcrafted, but the budget won't be allowing that since I have a kid on the way.

Leg vise with the classic peg board, and a wagon vise.


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## CL810

Dibs on first bench pic!!


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## FloaterDX

> Dibs on first bench pic!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - CL810


Beautiful work. I really want to tackle one of these soon.


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## manberdo

My bench is a little different then what has been posted previously. This video provides a little overview.






I started by writing down my requirements for the bench,

-It must be rock solid
-It must work with my mitre saw
-It must look good without limiting capabilities

The only regret with the bench thus far is not having mobility as a requirement but this just means I have the opportunity to build a better version when I move so not a huge loss haha


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Bench pics? No problem, but it's not a new one (bench or pic). These pics are from November 2013 (has it been that long?!).


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## therealSteveN

Gonna be a fun thread, lots of pics hopefully, and ideas.



> My bench is a little different then what has been posted previously. This video provides a little overview.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I started by writing down my requirements for the bench,
> 
> -It must be rock solid
> -It must work with my mitre saw
> -It must look good without limiting capabilities
> 
> The only regret with the bench thus far is not having mobility as a requirement but this just means I have the opportunity to build a better version when I move so not a huge loss haha
> 
> - manberdo


I am leaning toward the "simple bench" for a number of reasons. The thing I would miss most with your style of bench is something to limit length of cut, for repetitive cuts. I recently had seen 2 videos that address this on a simple bench. I am leaning toward the second guys way of doing it.


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## manberdo

When I need to make repetitive cuts I use a similar method to the second guy, I just clamp a piece of wood to the bench. If your mitre saw won't be out 100% of the time then his block method is definitely the way I would go.


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## theoldfart

Bench pic


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## Sylvain

Not a "fine furniture" workbench but a good practical one:










customisation:


























Made with recycled wood except the tool well, shelf and drawer.
It is a "Paul Sellers" workbench type.
I choose it because:
- the front apron is glued to the bench-top which makes a rigid "L" beam;
- the leg-frames are wedged in dado's in the aprons which guarantee no raking even if the legs were shrinking;
- it can be knocked down if moving (it was built in my backyard and then moved to the second floor of my house);
- there is an extensive set of video's showing how to build it.


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## surrywood

Very excited about this thread. My wife and I just bought a new house and will be moving into it in April and it has a bigger shop than what I had. A year or two ago I built a Nicholson style (my first REAL woodworking bench) and it has been in storage since this past May. It is Ok for most things but I want to build something that will allow me to do the handwork better, like a wagon vise or similar. I like the Euro style a lot but I also like the Roubo and the Moravian. I used pine for the whole first bench but on this build I was thinking of a hardwood top, 3" thick with pine legs and stretchers (for the sake of expense), about 72" long and 24" wide. I have never used one with a tool tray so I don't believe I will have one. Before Christmas I bought one of the Harbor Freight models to be able to work out of a bedroom of the house we are renting and it is alright for really light work but not for getting serious (not real sturdy), plus it is too short and not deep enough for my taste. I have scoured the site for info and researched all over the place and I really like the various things out here. I guess I would like one bench that does everything I have seen and I am afraid that when I build it will look like the Stanley 45 of benches 
Keep the good stuff coming, there is a whole lot of great info here from a whole lot of great people


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## Notw

So i'm in the process of researching to build another bench, the first one was more of an assembly table with a vise on it. This time I am looking to do a SYP Roubo style bench and one of the parts that has me pondering so far is how to cut the joinery for the dovetails on the legs to attach to the top. Does anyone have a good tutorial or blog that shows the best way to go about cutting this?


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## HokieKen

Notw - one of the Schwarz books has a Roubo build from laminated SYP and he covers it. Basically, IIRC, you cut the joinery pieces individually then glue them together to create the DT/mortise joint. I was lazy on my build and skipped that and just went with M&Ts so I can't give you any better advice.


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## GrantA

Benchcrafted has excellent information on their site


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## HokieKen

Anybody used the Hovarter hardware? I love my leg vise and the LV screw works perfectly well. But, it would be awfully nice to have QR mechanism. So, I'm considering retrofitting it with the Hovarter leg vise hardware. At $140, it ain't cheap but it ain't ridiculous either. Just curious if anyone has hands-on with the mechanism?


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Love the Hovarter wagon vise hardware. I don't have it, but would love it.


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## OleGrump

If you decide to use a leg vise, check out YouTube for devices which allow you to adjust the base of the vice without bending over to move a pin. There are some pretty spiffy ratchet type devices which seem to be variations of one found in "The Workbench Book". A leg vise stays in the same location most of the time, but occasionally there are projects which require frequent adjustment. If you can do that standing up, it makes the job so much easier.

On a personal note, I have used a bench with a tool well about 25 years ago. After about a year and a half, I got tired of CONSTANTLY cleaning sawdust, shavings and borings out of this area, which was ostensibly to hold tools. I wound up filling in that area with some oak and having one, flat solid surface. No more open dirt colectors for me. But this is my own personal hang-up. Some people like them.


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## HokieKen

For the time being grump, my leg vise has the traditional parallel guide and it suits me fine. In another decade or so, I may feel differently about all the bending but the scissor hardware can be retrofitted most any time. I do use mine at a lot of different positions and the only thing that is annoying is cranking the screw. I was considering just going to a double lead screw then someone showed me the Hovarter and really like the looks of that! I'm just a little leery of being an early adopter of fairly new hardware that is so different from the established…


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## MagicalMichael

New Bench plans. I like the idea of a new thread and hope it opens up the field of imagination. Like others on this thread I too am planning a new bench. Has anyone on this list used the HNT Gordon face vice?

I have a 35+ year old Tage Fridge bench with two worn out vices that need replacement. I also have an outfeed table, patterned after the Benchcrafted Classic Bench with a wooden leg vice screw, a built in router and the HNT Gordon end vice. It is a great bench, very versatile, but mostly use for planning & outfeed. I want the new bench to use for cutting and assembling joints. I have considered a number of front vice alternatives. I like my shoulder vice, but it's a lot of work to build and takes up a lot of space. No need to replicate the leg vice I already have. Various options for a twin screw but I'm resistant to either a chin drive or Holvarter, which could require more maintenance down the road. That brings me back to the HNT Gordon vice, which looks great but I sure would like to read about first hand experience.

Michael


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## JayT

> Anybody used the Hovarter hardware? I love my leg vise and the LV screw works perfectly well. But, it would be awfully nice to have QR mechanism. So, I m considering retrofitting it with the Hovarter leg vise hardware. At $140, it ain t cheap but it ain t ridiculous either. Just curious if anyone has hands-on with the mechanism?
> 
> - HokieKen


Pretty sure woodcox has one of the face vises. I bought his Veritas twin screw because he was upgrading to the Hovarter.


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## surrywood

I didn't know about the Hovarter hardware. I just checked it out and the wagon vise looks like just what the doctor ordered if I keep my current bench in operation, of course the whole bench only cost about that much except for the Eclipse 9" front vise that is on it


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## Boatman53

I have the Hovarter leg vise in my shop and I paired it with the chain kit I sell. It is awesome, I use it all the time and I heartily recommend it especially when paired with something that doesn't need the pin so you can utilize all the beauty of the quick release feature. I don't think it matters if it's the cross or the chain or one of about three other methods I know of.

Here is a link to a review I did on YouTube.






I'll be on the road all day tomorrow but I can post some pics when I get home.
Jim


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## woodcox

I have the Hovarter wagon vise. A great retrofit if you have the length under the top for the shaft. I drilled into a leg for clearance, it can be cut to fit if need be too. My bench top has moved a little since I cut into it and now the dog block is too tight in the slot. I'll wait until next summer to see if it moves again before widening it. The mechanism works well and holds the work easily. There is one annoying thing I have noticed since the install. When you release the hub it needs the smallest tick back to get it unlocked. I can't say it happens every time and it is habitual now to feel it the dog move back before letting the hub handle go. Slight misalignment or lube issue? There are not a lot of reviews out there but I have seen a youtube video of an earlier mechanism having the same issue. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend it or buy again. My face vise chop extends all the way to the left corner of the bench and I really like it there but, someday a leg vise may replace it.


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## Sylvain

1. Paul Sellers is announcing a new video series.
A laminated plywood version of his workbench.

2. Will Meyers has republished on his new blog
- the PDF description of the Moravian workbench built including a simple tail vise, first published on WK Fine tools;
- the leg vise "ratcheting parallel guide ;
He sells a improved version of his tail vise


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## woodcox

Thank you for those, Sylvain. I had forgotten where I read about Will's ratchet guide. Soon after, I thought to try this…








A cam lobe in the leg that turns into a parallel guide passing through below. 








It is working well for this and maybe possible on a full size vise?


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## HokieKen

Huh, never considered a cammed stop for the parallel guide WC. That's pretty darned slick. What is that you have on top of the guide? Just leather or rubber or something? Thanks for the feedback on the Hovater device!

Boatman - is there something that would prevent the leg vise hardware from working with a traditional pinned parallel guide?


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## woodcox

Thank you, Kenny. A metal rule so the lobe doesn't wear the guide.


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## Boatman53

Not at all Kenny. It works just fine with the pin, but if you're gonna have a quick release why bother with the pin. In the video I built it with taller jaws then on my hand tool bench and I'm often holding different dimensions as I work around a piece.
Hovarter also sells his version of the cross but I forget how the prices compare to Benchcrafted.
Jim


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## HokieKen

Hovarter compares very favorably next to Benchcrafted. If it was anywhere near BC prices, I wouldn't even be asking ;-). The leg vise hardware and the Scissor are $235 together. Handle is extra but I can make that


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## KelleyCrafts

Whew! I just went through the whole first thread and am all caught up. Seriously amazing work folks, more so, amazing convo and help from the peanut gallery. You guys are all amazing for the tips and tricks shared on the first thread. It really has been a joy, even if it took me a month to read the whole thing.

I saw you video about a month ago Jim when I was researching the Hovarter. I have a few larger projects in the works but I did just grab a trailer full of red oak at $1bf for a bench late this year and I plan to go with the Hovarter setup.

My plan however, is to get two leg vises, one with the criss cross and one without. The second will be used as a traditional tail vise which will run on mortised metal dovetailed steel plates to keep it in line and the vise "screw" obviously to run it up and down the bench. I started putting it in CAD last night but haven't designed the tail vise portion yet and I'm probably 6 months away from starting the project with my current work load in the shop but I have carved out time so when I start, I should be able to go start to finish fairly quick at least. I'm excited to start, I wish I could bump this up on the list.


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## Wintergreen78

Here is a the workbench I made about 2 years ago. It was my first time using a hand plane, first time cutting mortise and tenons, actually, it was my first time really trying to cut wood in a straight line. I built the top on the garage floor, then built the rest of it on the top on the garage floor. It is kind of rough, but it is (mostly) flat and definitely solid.


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## BlueRidgeDog

> So i m in the process of researching to build another bench, the first one was more of an assembly table with a vise on it. This time I am looking to do a SYP Roubo style bench and one of the parts that has me pondering so far is how to cut the joinery for the dovetails on the legs to attach to the top. Does anyone have a good tutorial or blog that shows the best way to go about cutting this?
> 
> - Notw


Get the book…great read and nice to have with plans for what you want:

https://www.amazon.com/Workbenches-Revised-Design-Theory-Construction/dp/1440343128/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1549919943&sr=8-4&keywords=workbench+book


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## Sylvain

Notw

If you use a solid slab:
http://donsbarn.com/workbench-wednesday-10-2013-forp-bench-assembled-and-at-work/

If you make a laminated top and laminated legs:
http://donsbarn.com/building-bench-18-i/
The mortises are not chopped as the needed mortises are openings left while gluing the 3 external boards.

Chopping wide mortises (self explanatory pictures)


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## HokieKen

> ...
> 
> Get the book…great read and nice to have with plans for what you want:
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Workbenches-Revised-Design-Theory-Construction/dp/1440343128/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1549919943&sr=8-4&keywords=workbench+book
> 
> - BlueRidgeDog


+1 I'd recommend both of Schwarz's books on benches. Even if you've already built your bench, they're a good read.


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## KelleyCrafts

I'll jump on the band wagon here as well. I bought his two workbench books. I don't know that you necessarily need the second one unless you really want plans for several different workbenches but the first one is great. I am in the middle of planning my bench out (it's amazing how you have to plan something seemingly so simple) and even though I'm not building a bench exactly like Schwarz's bench representations in the book, it's made me change a few details that I would have over looked in my plans. Plus, there is a lot of awesome examples of historical benches and the "why" they had the workholding they did on them.


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## DavidTTU

from this to this - no work involved -










The bench dog is 1 year older.










This bench has changed how I work wood. It has been a joy to use and has made everything I have done since better.


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## KelleyCrafts

No work involved David? You training wood projects to build themselves?


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## DavidTTU

It is the internet. Aren't we all being slightly sarcastic? If only you could have seen me pace around the shop for six months building this thing.


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## KelleyCrafts

I can imagine. I'm planning mine out pretty tight to the order of operations so I should be able to dance around the shop like a monkey and make cuts and assemble if my instructions are put together well enough for myself. I'm in the middle of a house remodel so I won't even start for several more months but the planning takes my mind off the stuff I'm doing now. I do have the lumber for it now though thankfully.


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## KelleyCrafts

Speaking of, someone needs to start a build and post progress on here to give this thread some life again.


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## HokieKen

Excellent work David! I hope the MF jointer was a solid worker ;-) Is that a planing stop just to the left of the leg vise?


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## DavidTTU

Kenny it has been excellent. The only thing lacking would be my knowledge, but that is getting better every day. Yes it is, but to be honest I use a simple T jig in the bench much more often.


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## Lazyman

Jim, That Chain Vise is really clever. After seeing how it works it seems so obvious now.


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## HokieKen

David, what vise hardware do you have on that leg vise?


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## HokieKen

> Jim, That Chain Vise is really clever. After seeing how it works it seems so obvious now.
> 
> - Lazyman


+1 It is damn elegant in its simplicity.


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## bmerrill

Any recommendations for casters on a heavy workbench?
Was thinking about the leaver type from Rockler, but the reviews are mixed.


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## DavidTTU

It is the Benchcrafted Classic Leg vise. The thing is sweet and works like a champ. I have the CrissCross mechanism installed with it.


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## Lazyman

Jim, I was wondering if you could replace the chain with a cable. Did you experiment with that?



> Jim, That Chain Vise is really clever. After seeing how it works it seems so obvious now.
> 
> - Lazyman
> 
> +1 It is damn elegant in its simplicity.
> 
> - HokieKen


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## theoldfart

Bmerrill, I use the Rockler casters on my bench and they work quite well. My bench is very heavy and it moves easily on them.


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## Sylvain

NOTW

other pictures for Roubo with laminated top and laminated legs.


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## Lazyman

> Any recommendations for casters on a heavy workbench?
> Was thinking about the leaver type from Rockler, but the reviews are mixed.
> 
> - bmerrill


I thought this design was pretty clever. With this approach you can use any casters you want. There are other similar ideas around too.


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## theoldfart

bmerril, this is my bench with the Rockler casters.










I didn't like the levers hanging out so I installed magnets to hold them up.



















I installed them in May of last year and no issues so far. I do have to slightly unweight the end of the bench to press down on the lever to deploy the casters.


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## Jason300b

Wow. Just finished the first smackdown thread. Dayum. That took a long time. But what a great variety of beautiful and functional benches! I learned a ton seeing those builds (mistakes and all). I'm excited to see this thread start to take off. I built a Paul Sellers style bench a while back, learned a bunch while doing it and am getting ready to build another bench. A different style this timethat suits me better. Those Benchcrafted Roubo benches look so nice that I almost went with that design. But after calculating the cost (I'm estimating about 2k total..including a new tool or two), I decided I could make a lot of other things with that much money (wood). I think I'm scaling back to a Doug fir bench. Im in Colorado and haven't seen any SYP out here. Possibly using my QR vise as an end vise and maybe a Veritas twin screw on the front similar to the Third Coast Craftsman bench. That should keep me to around $600, maybe a bit less. Decided to get the Schwarz blue book after seeing so many recommendations in the thread before making my final plans.

My big projects for this year are organizing my 'shop' with a French cleat wall, hanging tool cabinet, a study desk for my daughter, and if time a kitchen table. The tool cabinet and desk drawer carcass will likely be the biggest cases I work with so I'm trying to plan for that work. It will be a mix of hand and power tools. I have a 1 car garage bay to work with and space is at a premium so I don't have room for a jointer/planer. Some of the cabinetry I plan to joint by hand and some I'll have the lumberyard S3S. I plan to have the bench double asan outfeed table for my table saw so I'll be able to access the front and sides of the bench, but not the back. I'll have something sketched up next week for y'all to see.


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## AwlThat

Well, now that I've discovered this thread, I guess I will make a contribution.

I am in the process of clearing out the portion of our 2.5 car garage that will become my "shop". I'm new to the world of woodworking, per se, but not building things. I am about to get my first real table saw (I have a hand-me-down Craftsman that I can't get the blade off of, even though I bought the wrenches for it last year), so I'm super-excited to get started on this journey.

My workbench plan is for a 3' x 5' Paulk-style table on top of a base made of 4×4 corner posts and 2×4 rails. I'm even planning on using mortise and tenon joinery for the base. It might be overkill for a shop project but I really want to give it a try.

Since I don't have much space to work in, I need a place for my miter saw. I will store it on the bottom shelf of the base but when I use it, it will be on top of the table. I plan on adding T-track to the surface of the table and I've come up with some ideas to make some wings for the miter saw that will be held down by the T-track.

The tax refund is in the bank so the table saw will not be far behind along with some other goodies. I already have a palm router and a larger router with a fixed and plunge base as well as a new jig saw and orbital sander (Christmas gifts). I'm also planning on getting a small drill press. This should be plenty to get me started and keep my busy for quite a while.

I've already got ideas for projects around the house, e.g. slide-out shelves for the kitchen cabinets, so my wife is certainly on board with all this. I just can't wait to get started.

I will post my progress in the coming weeks, which should include some pictures.


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## HokieKen

Awl that - you do realize the thread on table saws is a left hand thread, right? Not being a smartass, just know that if it were me and it were my first table saw, I might miss it ;-)


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## KelleyCrafts

> Awl that - you do realize the thread on table saws is a left hand thread, right? Not being a smartass, just know that if it were me and it were my first table saw, I might miss it ;-)
> 
> - HokieKen


BAHAHAHA!! Check this. I did the same thing with my first saw! Spent like 15 minutes trying to get that thing off and then Googled it and found it was reverse threaded. SMH I only wish I could say that was the dumbest thing I've done in all of my woodworking ventures.


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## AwlThat

> Awl that - you do realize the thread on table saws is a left hand thread, right? Not being a smartass, just know that if it were me and it were my first table saw, I might miss it ;-)
> 
> - HokieKen


No, I figured it would be a reverse thread, i.e. reverse of the direction of the blade, and I confirmed it when I downloaded a copy of the manual for it when I looked for the part numbers for the wrenches.

That puppy is on there.

The saw was my brother-in-law's. He gave it to me about 6 years ago. Before that, it was sitting in a metal shed in his backyard. I never thought to change the blade for what I used it for (laying hardwood flooring) so I never knew it was stuck, if it ever was at that time.

I've thought about giving it one more shot in hopes that I could actually sell it, even if for only a few bucks. I mean heck, I paid about $15-$20 for those wrenches. It would be nice to get my money back.


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## KelleyCrafts

Put a torch to it and let it heat up. Then once it cools it might break loose.


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## HokieKen

Spray the hell out of it with Kroil and let it sit overnight if heating doesn't work. That stuff is kinda magic.


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## KentInOttawa

> Awl that - you do realize the thread on table saws is a left hand thread, right? Not being a smartass, just know that if it were me and it were my first table saw, I might miss it ;-)
> 
> - HokieKen
> 
> BAHAHAHA!! Check this. I did the same thing with my first saw! Spent like 15 minutes trying to get that thing off and then Googled it and found it was reverse threaded. SMH I only wish I could say that was the dumbest thing I ve done in all of my woodworking ventures.
> - KelleyCrafts


It was much worse before Google. DAMHIKT.


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## AwlThat

> It was much worse before Google. DAMHIKT.
> 
> - Kent


And YouTube. ;-)


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## KelleyCrafts

I'm just glad we have a bench build starting. Great motivation for mine later this year when I can clear the calendar a bit.


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## Zonker

This is my workbench. I built it for a smaller shop, so it's only five feet long. It's a combination of several designs but leans most heavily on Chris Schwartz's take on the Roubo. The top is 3" thick SYP glued together and flattened with a local cabinet makers wide belt sander. The legs and stretchers came from "Rescue Lumber" I picked up here and there. Each leg is a pair of 2×4's glued up and milled to 3×3 posts, then M&T'd to form the ends. I incorporated a wagon vise (Norm Abram style) but used a modified press screw instead of a bench screw. The square bench dogs are from Norm and run down the front of the bench. My round dogs are home made and run back from the face vice. The face vice is inset to the top so it holds work flush to the front of the bench (credit for that idea goes to the WoodSmith Shop). I added a deadman of my own design for hold long pieces. On the vice end is a plywood plane stop that runs the full depth of the top. It can slide up to brace a work pice on the top or slide forward to brace a workpiece in the vice. I usually keep a sheet of heavy matting on the top to take the brunt of daily abuse and only expose the top when I need it's holding capability or I need a flat assembly surface. It has seen much good use, and sometimes I think I might build a bigger one, but for now I still enjoy using it and will keep it around.


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## Boatman53

Thanks Lazyman and Kenny. The simplicity is a big virtue, and it is easily adjusted back into parallel if the jaw was to warp over time. 
When I was working on different options, as a boatbuilder I have access to a lot of high tech stuff. My first prototype was made with Sectra a very low stretch hi strength rope it actually worked well. I did consider cable but more important was to have something easily adaptable to different lengths so I didn't limit the builder into specific dimensions for the vise. The chain is readily shortened or lengthened with connector links.plus the chain links made it easy and elegant to attach it to the front jaw with that button. The Spectra line was a little more problematic.
Jim


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## Jason300b

Looks like a nice bench Zonker. Great idea with that plane stop.


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## Zonker

Thanks Jason300b. It was a lot of fun to build.


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## builtinbkyn

Zonker that's a great bench and the plane stop is brilliant. Do you use both square and round dogs? Hard to tell from the pic.


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## Zonker

builtinbkyn: I have both. The square ones run out from the wagon vice and the round ones are opposite the main vice.









I built the square ones from Norm Abrams plans.









The round ones are dowel rods I machined to act as dogs. As you can see from the pictures I didn't do that great getting the round holes straight.


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## Holbs

I guess time to post in this thread 
Just starting out with my Roubo build, following the path like many before me here. Already purchased the Benchcrafted hardware (wagon vise and leg vise). Due to this being my first ever big boy toy, I am using selected douglas fir 2×12's cut in 1/2 for the top in the 7' length range. Same for base. Maybe ash for chop. Undecided on end cap.
Hmm…still undecided between square and round dog holes too.
I do have a 8" Wilcox metal wood working vise I would like to install opposite the face of the leg vise. Only because, it currently has no home  
I consider this my "introductory" workbench build project. A fun project. I could easily use it for a short time. And decide I want hard maple or beech top with dovetailed legs.


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## KelleyCrafts

I am in the planning and waiting for time to clear stages of my bench and I contemplated square holes. They look great, absolutely awesome and I want them. However, I'm doing round holes because they are practical, make sense, more accessories, etc. so I vote for round because it really makes more sense.

Oh, and drive a Chevy, or is it a ford? Or maybe a Mopar man???


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## bandit571

A rare sight in my shop….









Didn't stay this way very long, either…


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## rad457

> I guess time to post in this thread
> Just starting out with my Roubo build, following the path like many before me here. Already purchased the Benchcrafted hardware (wagon vise and leg vise). Due to this being my first ever big boy toy, I am using selected douglas fir 2×12 s cut in 1/2 for the top in the 7 length range. Same for base. Maybe ash for chop. Undecided on end cap.
> *Hmm…still undecided between square and round dog holes too.
> *I do have a 8" Wilcox metal wood working vise I would like to install opposite the face of the leg vise. Only because, it currently has no home
> I consider this my "introductory" workbench build project. A fun project. I could easily use it for a short time. And decide I want hard maple or beech top with dovetailed legs.
> 
> - Holbs


I wanted the square dogs but they do not work all that great with Hold fast? Ended up going with the Brass pop ups from L.V. for the Tail Vise.


----------



## Holbs

> I wanted the square dogs but they do not work all that great with Hold fast? Ended up going with the Brass pop ups from L.V. for the Tail Vise.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Andre


Ah…good point I never thought of. I do have 2 Gramercy holdfasts after all.


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## KelleyCrafts

That's exactly why I'll go for round holes. All of the bench accessories like hold fasts, Veritas accessories, etc. Are all for round holes. Again, it's a preference. I do like the look of square ones.


----------



## theoldfart

Keep in mind that LV holdfasts and the like are for 3/4" dog holes. Other makers make both 3/4" and 1".


----------



## Nick424

Or you could try this…...

https://www.lumberjocks.com/projects/337177


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## GoingUp

How are those holding up after a year? Any splits or other issues?


----------



## Nick424

I only use them a few times a month, but no problems with them yet. I have not had any break or crack, but they fit the square hole pretty snugly.


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## Jeremymcon

Just finished my Moravian workbench build. I'm *really* happy with it! Upgraded from my mdf and pipe clamp vise bench!

I turned the tail vise screw myself in my spring pole lathe, and threaded it and the end cap with a threading kit.


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## Jeremymcon

Woops! Duplicate post!


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## KelleyCrafts

Looks great Jeremy!


----------



## Lazyman

I like the look of those splayed legs.


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## HokieKen

Nice work Jeremy. That's a keeper ;-)


----------



## Mosquito

As much as I love my french style bench, those Moravian style benches have been growing on me. Nice work Jeremy


----------



## Woodbridge

I'm building a new workshop so I decided to make a new and better workbench. I decided to go with a Roubo style bench. The top is made from a single slab of maple. The legs and stretchers are laminated maple to build up to about 3" X 5". The bench is about 5"8" long x 21" wide x 32" tall. Vice chops are from roasted maple that I had in my shed. Shelf is left over hardwood floor.


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## KelleyCrafts

So is the Bondo pose just not a thing anymore?


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## KelleyCrafts

> As much as I love my french style bench, those Moravian style benches have been growing on me. Nice work Jeremy
> 
> - Mosquito


I can agree Mos. Personally, any bench with no apron and legs flush to the top with a face vise/leg vise is a winner in my book. With that said, my current bench has an apron and the legs aren't flush with the top. 

Later this year I'll build my forever bench out.


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## theoldfart

the Bondo is a requirement to post on this thread.

Peter?

Jeremy?

We're waiting!


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## HokieKen

It's been a while since we've seen a Bondo pose. I'm not sure the newer fella's even know what that is. Give 'em an example Kev ;-)


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## KelleyCrafts

> It s been a while since we ve seen a Bondo pose. I m not sure the newer fella s even know what that is. Give em an example Kev ;-)
> 
> - HokieKen


Actually Kenny, I don't think you ever did your Bondo pose either now that we're talking about it.


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## Jeremymcon

I have no idea what a bond pose is.


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## HokieKen

> It s been a while since we ve seen a Bondo pose. I m not sure the newer fella s even know what that is. Give em an example Kev ;-)
> 
> - HokieKen
> 
> Actually Kenny, I don t think you ever did your Bondo pose either now that we re talking about it.
> 
> - KelleyCrafts


I've tried to post it several times but it keeps getting flagged. Something about wearing clothes.


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## Jeremymcon

> As much as I love my french style bench, those Moravian style benches have been growing on me. Nice work Jeremy
> 
> - Mosquito


Yea I considered something like a split top ruobo with hardware that I could disassemble. But the Moravian bench was a very elegant solution to a lot of the problems I was trying to deal with.

I didn't want to take forever build it, I didn't want it to be ungodly heavy (I rent my current house, hoping to buy in a couple years), but I still wanted it to be ridgid and not slide around. The slanted leg design with the wedged tenons really make it feel solid.

Plus I just really like the look of the angled legs, and I liked the idea of a slanted leg vise so that I can get the workpiece centered in the chop.


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## KelleyCrafts

You know the rules….

When I do mine I plan to model mine after Michelangelo's The Thinker so people think I is smart and stuff. The clothes part might be an issue for me too.


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## KelleyCrafts

Duplicate post. Man LJs is struggling.


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## HokieKen

> I have no idea what a bond pose is.
> 
> - Jeremymcon


Sorry, you asked for it ;-) This is Fridge's Bondo pose. Here's his bench.


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## KelleyCrafts

HA!!! I completely forgot about that! Damn Fridge you are awesome!


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## theoldfart

^ I can't compete with that


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## Jeremymcon

Fwiw, captainKlutz invited me to post it here, and he didn't mention any bondo anything!


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## Jeremymcon

There's no way I'm doing that. What, am I going to go ask my wife to take a sexy picture of me on my workbench?


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## HokieKen

You don't HAVE to post a Bondo Jeremy. We like seeing the bench anyway. It's just a "right of passage" that kind of started early on in part 1 of this thread I think. I haven't posted one yet either. I intend to when I post my project for my bench. But, I finished it nearly 2 years ago and still haven't posted it :-/ I need to scrape/flatten the top and give it a coat of BLO soon and fully intend to take pics then when it's "pretty"


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## HokieKen

> There s no way I m doing that. What, am I going to go ask my wife to take a sexy picture of me on my workbench?
> 
> - Jeremymcon


Some guys will have their lady pose instead









Somebody on here re-created this photo either in the thread or in their project post. I can't recall who it was though. I should have favorited it…


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## KelleyCrafts

That was Mos!!! Someone post that pic!


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## KelleyCrafts

> Fwiw, captainKlutz invited me to post it here, and he didn t mention any bondo anything!
> 
> - Jeremymcon


That's how they get you Jeremy, time to grab the wife and sit her down for a talk. "Honey….I need you to take a pic of me but it's not just a regular pic…."


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## Jeremymcon

> Fwiw, captainKlutz invited me to post it here, and he didn t mention any bondo anything!
> 
> - Jeremymcon
> 
> That s how they get you Jeremy, time to grab the wife and sit her down for a talk. "Honey….I need you to take a pic of me but it s not just a regular pic…."
> 
> - KelleyCrafts


My wife is already jealous of how much time I spend with that bench and on this forum…


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## JayT

Yep, Roubo girl started it, then LJ member bondogaposis did a spoof on the pose when he finished his bench










and a tradition was born. Most of the benches completed since then have included some form of a bondo pose. Mos' was a kick, though, in the spirit of the original


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## theoldfart

This was three years ago, I'm better looking now.


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## KelleyCrafts

And an awesome bench at that Kevin.

Can't wait until I finish my remodel so I can start on my fancy bench.


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## KentInOttawa

If ever there was anything posted here worthy of being a "sticky"...


> Yep, Roubo girl started it, then LJ member bondogaposis did a spoof on the pose when he finished his bench
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and a tradition was born. Most of the benches completed since then have included some form of a bondo pose. Mos was a kick, though, in the spirit of the original
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
> 
> - JayT


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## Mosquito

lol call that a win :-D I've still got all of them bookmarked, for good posterity :^)


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## HokieKen

I dunno Kev, you look awfully good for a fella in his forties.


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## Lazyman

This really is an exclusive club.


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## theoldfart

Yea, don't I


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## onoitsmatt

It's great to see some new benches. They both turned out awesome. Not so great is seeing these yahoo's Bondo Poses… Ok, that part is pretty great too.


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## UpstateNYdude

> I ve tried to post it several times but it keeps getting flagged. Something about wearing clothes.
> 
> - HokieKen


I almost spit the juice I was drinking when I read this, between that and Mos as Roubo girl I can't stop laughing, thank you both for that.


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## HokieKen

From what I understand, Mos, never could get all that blue dye out of his hair. He still looks like that. True story. Maybe.


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## Sylvain

"There's no way I'm doing that. What, am I going to go ask my wife to take a sexy picture of me on my workbench?"

I used the self timer/retarder function on my picture camera to do it by myself.


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## HokieKen

Sometimes it's really hard to be politically correct…


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## theoldfart

;-)


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## Mosquito

Kenny's right, I had to dye my hairy legs blue so they'd match, otherwise people would think it wa weird…


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## HokieKen

Atta boy Mos'. Gotta make sure the carpet matches the drapes.


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## MagicalMichael

I am getting close to starting a new bench and also considering the Hovarter vices, so appreciate the posts here.. Last year I built a new outfeet table for the table saw and added a router and a leg vice on the left end and then went back and added the HNT Gordon wagon vice on the right hand side. It is very east to install and other than being a bit slow works very well. I am also considering the Gordon face vice but they are pricey. Has anyone else on this list used that face vice? What do you think? I recently completed a project with 10 drawers and greatly appreciated my traditional tail vice when it came to planing & sanding the drawers. That gave me a lot of time to wonder if the Gordon vice would do that as well, or even better. I also wonder how much maintenance the Hovater mechanism might require over the years. My traditional tail & shoulder vices are worn out after almost 40 years of use but have mostly been trouble free.
Michael


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## TEK73

My bench is one the way. It will be a split top roubo bench, mutch inspiered by the benchrafted one, with a foot vice and wagon vice.
The vice screws will be in wood and I will make them myself.

I found that I started planning (for real) about march 2016, and I got the lumber may the same year.
Then life happend, other builds and so on.

Now I have put the workbench build at the top of the que and have actually started the build.
First leg (not completed) vice and wooden screw.










Gluing up what will be the second leg:









Ripping for the third leg:


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## KentInOttawa

Magical Micheal,

Hovarter vises have been around for less than a decade. Mine, a version 2 from around 2013, came with my bench which I bought second-hand. It shows no signs of wear, but that may be because of low usage. I see nothing to indicate that the vise won't outlast me.


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## socrbent

Started in fall of 2017. Used without drawers since. Added drawers Late winter 2019.
Project Page - https://www.lumberjocks.com/projects/409406


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## pottz

https://www.lumberjocks.com/projects/243434
here is the bench i made a few years ago,just never got to posting it here.i gotta say it's been a dream bench for me,just wish it was twice as big.but isn't that all mens dream-LOL.


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## PatrickC40

About to Finish up on my Split top Roubo.
All Ash , except for Soft Maple Rails and Chop

Need a few small details before it's 100% complete! (Drill more holes , Trim Chop , add Crubber , add Finish)


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## KelleyCrafts

Very nice Tek, socrbent, Patrick! Those three benches together are an excellent example of building the bench that works for you. I know people on these bench threads and others try to defend their bench choices for whatever particular reason they have to have built it but in all reality, all that matters is what works for your needs and the bench being the most used tool in most shops, it's critical to do what makes working more enjoyable and hopefully a bit easier.

Great work!


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## CL810

Great work Patrick, it's a beast!!


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## KelleyCrafts

Even though I'm a few months from starting my new bench build due to the to-do list that needs to come out of the shop, I'm only a couple weeks away from having enough in the shop slush fund account to order the Hovarter vises for the bench.

If anyone has last minute thoughts on those not being worth the cash, let me know but everything I read says they are great along with the quick release feature that I really would like.

Wish Len would have a sale on those things.


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## theoldfart

Patrick nice bench. Clean looking condor tails on the end vise. What's your plan for holdfasts?


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## PatrickC40

> Patrick nice bench. Clean looking condor tails on the end vise. What's your plan for holdfasts?
> 
> - theoldfart


Thank you. I unfortunately had some twist in the front slab , and after flattening with a router (first time , had some issues) , those condor tails aren't so equally spaced from top to bottom anymore  Ah well.

I have round holes , so I have some Veritas Dogs , Veritas Pop-up Dogs , Veritas wonder pups etc etc. Also have a Gramercy holdfast , need to get more.

Also , as a treat to finishing the bench (18 months +!!) I picked up the Benchcrafted Swing Away Seat…..will add that once i get finish on the bench. Also added the removable Workbench Casters (guess i need some updated pics)


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## woodcox

Very nice, Patrick.


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## theoldfart

Patrick, I can vouch for the usefulness of bench casters. I used the ones from Rockler but didn't use the removable option. Post a pic of the seat when you install it.


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## sk416

Hoping to get a little feedback on whether to go with a solid top or split. I have 4 large beams which will make up the top and I could go either way… It's a little easier to glue up a slab vs. having to rip a couple inches to create the gap stop. Anyone feel strongly either way on this topic? I'd love to get your thoughts.


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## HokieKen

> Hoping to get a little feedback on whether to go with a solid top or split. I have 4 large beams which will make up the top and I could go either way… It s a little easier to glue up a slab vs. having to rip a couple inches to create the gap stop. Anyone feel strongly either way on this topic? I d love to get your thoughts.
> 
> - sk416


My bench is constructed similarly from beams. I went with sort of a hybrid approach between the split top and solid top. It's definitely been the right choice for me.


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## ssnvet

And now I know why I stopped getting update alerts for this thread….

If I only had a brain.


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## bondogaposis

I went with a solid top, as I could not figure why I would want a hole in the middle of the bench.


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## KelleyCrafts

I agree with Bondo. I have a Paul Sellers style bench with a tool tray in the center and it's a mess, it's always a mess. I know the split top roubo doesn't have a bottom to collect chips or dust but it'll still collect tools.

I'm building a new bench this year, mostly roubo style and it will have a solid top about 24" deep.


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## HokieKen

The "gap" in my top serves as a tool well. Fact is, tools are going to end up on my bench no matter what… At least this way, I can keep them out of my way. The tool wells also have removable bottoms so they're easily emptied of chips. The gaps have come in handy for clamping on a few occasions as well. But, I agree with above that I personally have no real need for the split top for traditional uses.


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## KelleyCrafts

Yeah, this is really a personal choice I think. I'm lazy so I'll throw tools in the well and they won't make it back to the till like they should until I run out of room in the tool well and do a bigger cleaning of the bench. If I don't have a tool well to shove them, they will get put back in the till that's right behind me when I'm done. Literally right behind me. Man I'm a lazy ass.

So to each his own, the tool well doesn't work for me very well.

The traditional split top roubo fits smaller items like chisels and such I suppose, not sure I want those handles sticking up when I'm moving a cabinet or chest case around and can't see over it easily. I guess the same could be said that you could knock the chisel off the bench if you can't see it either…I'm not helping.


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## theoldfart

Another vote for solid top Roubo style


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## KelleyCrafts

> Another vote for solid top Roubo style
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - theoldfart


That's essentially what I'm building but with a more traditional 'L' shaped tail vise. Love that bench oldfart.


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## KelleyCrafts

Did you put a strip on the back side of your bench to slide tools in OldFart? I see a lot of them sticking up in the back side. I've thought about adding that if I ever found I wish I could store tools on the bench like a split top.


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## Mosquito

I have loved my tool well. It's also got a removable bottom for cleaning out shavings, etc. It is a french style bench with the legs being angled to the top, with the tool tray hanging off the back. Mine was more useful when I was in the apartment, and often times tools 'away' meant in a drawer or something in another area, maybe in the closet. I also didn't have much room for other places to set tools or work pieces besides the floor, so being able to put some smaller work pieces in the tool tray to keep them 'safe' but still there helped to expand the area I had to work on.

Now, things like the squares, marking knives, pencils, a bench screwdriver, bench pliers, mallets, a shop notepad, etc always stay in the tool tray 100% of the time. Otherwise I've usually been pretty good about keeping only the tools I was actively using (like chisels, mallet, dovetail saw, fret saw when working on dovetails). I think it also works well because my bench is only a 12"x51" top, not including the tool well. Also it needed to be portable (to move up and down 2 flights of stairs in and out of my apartment), so the weight savings by having a tool well instead of another 10" of slab was worth it. I've been using it for almost 8 years now.

I still want to build a larger less mobile bench (more hefty), but I've not yet decided what I will do. Of course, I've also been saying that for 3 years now…

But to sum it up, I 100% agree in regards to it being a personal preference, and whatever fits your usecas and style best. It works for me, and my situation, and the best you'll be able to gather is how well it does or doesn't work for others in their situations and work style, and compare it to your own situation


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## sk416

Lots to consider, appreciate all the feedback. At this point i'm leaning towards a split top, as I can probably manhandle it myself without having to ask for help. I just moved to a new area and don't have many people that I can turn to for help in a pinch. Still lots of joinery to cut and flattening to get through…


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## Bob5103

> Hoping to get a little feedback on whether to go with a solid top or split. I have 4 large beams which will make up the top and I could go either way… It s a little easier to glue up a slab vs. having to rip a couple inches to create the gap stop. Anyone feel strongly either way on this topic? I d love to get your thoughts.
> 
> - sk416


I went back and forth when I was designing my bench. I liked the split top for the clamping options it provides, but I also knew that with my work habits it would be a pain to deal with the dropped tools, and mess etc… So instead of a roubo style I ended up with a shaker style bench with a modified spit. It has two partitions that are easy to remove for clamping or providing plane stops. For me, it ended up being the best of both worlds. They also let me clamp sheet goods when used with the "wing" supports I added.


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## CL810

OK Bob5103, You drop a bomb like those wing supports then you must supply more information. ;-)

Never seen them before. Innovative. How do they lock in position? Pics in use?


----------



## avsmusic1

> Lots to consider, appreciate all the feedback. At this point i m leaning towards a split top, as I can probably manhandle it myself without having to ask for help. I just moved to a new area and don t have many people that I can turn to for help in a pinch. Still lots of joinery to cut and flattening to get through…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - sk416


If you're in CT I know a guy…


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## theoldfart

KelleyCrafts, here you go. The tools are the ones I'm always reaching for. Rip and cut panel saws and tenon saws, screw drivers, chisels and so on.










There are spacers inside to prevent tools from getting banged up.


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## KelleyCrafts

That's great. I might do something similar for sure. I'll wait and see how it goes first but I've definitely had something very similar on my backup list. Thanks for sharing! Beautiful bench.


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## JayT

My current bench has a tool slot along the back, as well. It's been a great place to store rasps & files as I do plane shaping. Easy to hand, yet out of the way and no risk of them rolling off the bench.


----------



## sk416

> Bench pic
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - theoldfart


Hi Old Fart, how do you like your sheldon quick release in the tail vise position? Do you find it has enough hold for vigorous planing?


----------



## theoldfart

sk416, good eye! It has served me well. Good holding power. I've done resawing and planing with no issues.


----------



## AEVilleneuve

My only regret is not splaying the legs.


----------



## YouthfullMind

Bench
1. White oak construction
2. Laminated legs, laminated top. 
3. Draw bore mortise and tenon frame
4. Yost vise screw for leg vise, yost end vise, gramercy hold fasts, powertec casters
5. Legs are wedged through the top
6. Finished with natural danish oil

Tool Chest
1. White oak carcase
2. Top of carcase is through dovetailed, bottoms and dividers are sliding dovetails
3. Drawers are through dovetailed on the rears, half blind on the fronts
4. Drawer fronts are quarter sawn bur oak
5. Door panels are quarter sawn figured bur oak
6. Finished with natural danish oil


----------



## AEVilleneuve

Wow, now that's a workbench!


----------



## TEK73

Just finished my split top roubo workbench


















Bench
1. All beech construction, 11cm thick solid top
2. Laminated legs, laminated top. 
3. Draw bore mortise and tenon frame
4.Legs are draw bore mortise and tenon framed to the top
5. DIY wooden screws for face/leg vice, with DIY criss-cross design
6. DIY wooden screw for wagon vice
7. Finished with boiled linseed

Project page:
https://www.lumberjocks.com/projects/410696


----------



## duckmilk

WOW! Some beautiful benches have shown up here the last few days! Glad this thread is getting invigorated again.

Everyone has their own uses of a bench and should design them accordingly. For me, I considered a split top, but holdfasts will do almost all of the work holding that I would use. I'm still partial to the traditional Ruobo style like Kevin, Clayton, Bondo and others have made.


----------



## theoldfart

Hey Duck, it's still working


----------



## bandit571

yep, still working….just need to clean it off, now and then…


----------



## BubbaIBA

> Not a "fine furniture" workbench but a good practical one:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> customisation:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Made with recycled wood except the tool well, shelf and drawer.
> It is a "Paul Sellers" workbench type.
> I choose it because:
> - the front apron is glued to the bench-top which makes a rigid "L" beam;
> - the leg-frames are wedged in dado s in the aprons which guarantee no raking even if the legs were shrinking;
> - it can be knocked down if moving (it was built in my backyard and then moved to the second floor of my house);
> - there is an extensive set of video s showing how to build it.
> - Sylvain


Sylvain,

I do not check this site often so this was the first I've seen your bench. Good job.

ken


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## BubbaIBA

> Just finished my Moravian workbench build. I m *really* happy with it! Upgraded from my mdf and pipe clamp vise bench!
> 
> I turned the tail vise screw myself in my spring pole lathe, and threaded it and the end cap with a threading kit.
> 
> - Jeremymcon


Jeremymcon,

It is good to see something other than a Roubo style bench. The Moravian style bench is a better bench for the modern woodworker. It uses less wood for the same stability, is easier and quicker to build, and can be broken down and moved by one person.

Good on you,

ken


----------



## Jeremymcon

> Just finished my Moravian workbench build. I m *really* happy with it! Upgraded from my mdf and pipe clamp vise bench!
> 
> I turned the tail vise screw myself in my spring pole lathe, and threaded it and the end cap with a threading kit.
> 
> - Jeremymcon
> 
> Jeremymcon,
> 
> It is good to see something other than a Roubo style bench. The Moravian style bench is a better bench for the modern woodworker. It uses less wood for the same stability, is easier and quicker to build, and can be broken down and moved by one person.
> 
> Good on you,
> 
> ken
> 
> - BubbaIBA


Thanks Ken! I've been following your blog since I was still building the bench, and I see you now have quite the collection! Hope your feather de razor blades are working out for you.

This bench was built just in time, actually. My previous bench was not collapsible, though it was almost ready to collapse from heavy use and just dowel joinery. I got a couple little projects done on it and one , and then knocked it down and moved to the house we just bought!

Now I still have a usable bench ready for the new shop!


----------



## BubbaIBA

Jeremy,

The Feather DE were a great tip and find, thanks.

As I expect you know I keep a spare Moravian bench broken down and stacked against the wall of my shop. When I need a bench somewhere in the house or yard I just move and put together the broken down bench to where needed. It's almost as easy and fast as a "WorkMate" but is a real bench to work on.

Your bench is a perfect example of what I like in a workbench, simple, clean with no extras to get in the way of working, and no "bling". It is a workbench, not furniture.

ken


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## BubbaIBA

Here is why everyone needs a couple or three Moravian style workbenches:

Move 'em to where you need 'em;










They make a great serving table;










Handy when RVing:










And best of all the Moravian bench makes a great shop bench:










ken


----------



## Sylvain

Thank You Ken,
I was quite surprised to see my workbench popping-up.
If I were to make a new one it certainly would look better but would not necessarily be more functional.


----------



## OleGrump

Painting….. on the WORKBENCH…....??? I'm gettin' a little dizzy here. This was a BIG "Thou shalt not" in my grandfather's shop. He had PLENTY of saw horses for that kind of thing…..
BUT that said, LOVE the portability and versatility of your bench. I'm nearing completion of version of a Bernard E. Jones (aka "Roy Underhill") folding bench for just that reason. I've wound up moving TOO many times to keep building workbenches. the Moravian style also fits this requirement quite admirably.
Glad to see someone else occasionally serves meals for cookouts from their workbench!


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## BubbaIBA

> Thank You Ken,
> I was quite surprised to see my workbench popping-up.
> If I were to make a new one it certainly would look better but would not necessarily be more functional.
> 
> - Sylvain


Sylvain,

I'm not much for workbenches as furniture. They are a tool that gets prettier with each chisel and saw scar, paint and glue stains are even better and there is a beauty in simple.

ken


----------



## BubbaIBA

> Painting….. on the WORKBENCH…....??? I m gettin a little dizzy here. This was a BIG "Thou shalt not" in my grandfather s shop. He had PLENTY of saw horses for that kind of thing…..
> BUT that said, LOVE the portability and versatility of your bench. I m nearing completion of version of a Bernard E. Jones (aka "Roy Underhill") folding bench for just that reason. I ve wound up moving TOO many times to keep building workbenches. the Moravian style also fits this requirement quite admirably.
> Glad to see someone else occasionally serves meals for cookouts from their workbench!
> 
> - OleGrump


Ole,

Who needs saw horses when you have a Moravian bench . I had to look up (google) your portable bench. Over the years I've seen different style benches come into fashion, the latest is the Roubo. I expect its time will pass as well because it doesn't fit with today's needs.

ken


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## OleGrump

Yeah, one can often (but not always) pretty well date workbenches by the style in which they were built. As you say, styles change with "fashion". Heck, I'm old enough to remember when a twin screw vise was CALLED a twin screw vise, not by the name of the guy who described such vises already in use in his book.
For my Bernard Jones bench, I've added a detachable leg vise to the front left leg. The actual leg and the rear jaw have mortises through which the original metal parallel adjustment bar pass. On the antique vise, this was installed notches down, and was lifted over a 3/8 bolt in the desired position. I've turned it over so the notches are up, and have made bent the ends of a 3/8 steel rod so it's somewhat "Z" shaped. There is a dado on the back of the rear jaw through which the rod passes and is raised or lowered into the desired hole. The upper leg of the "Z" serves as a handle to pull the pin out of the notch. The lower end engages the notch, and protrudes enough on the other side, so as can be raised with the toe of your shoe. Two ways to adjust the pin without bending over! 
Although I'm not authorized to "Think on Company Time", seems like a fairly decent idea to me…… Besides, I'm retired now, so I can THINK all I want, nowadays!


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop

> It is good to see something other than a Roubo style bench.
> 
> The Moravian style bench is a better bench for the modern woodworker.
> 
> Here is why everyone needs a couple or three Moravian style workbenches
> 
> Over the years I've seen different style benches come into fashion, the latest is the Roubo. I expect its time will pass as well because it doesn't fit with today's needs.
> 
> ken


I think ken prefers Moravian benches over Roubos. Yep, pretty sure.


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## theoldfart

Smitty, i'm Going to put Ken's idea to a test. I have three or four restoration projects that will be occurring simultaneously. I will need to move between two buildings so I am going to build a breakdown Moravian similar to Will Meyers version. I should be able to assess which style suits my way of working. And here I thought I was done with bench builds. So sad.


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## HokieKen

I'll just watch Kev while I work on my fleetingly fashionable Roubo ;-)


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Kevin, curious to see if it uses less wood in any substantial way. And I'm interested in what might make it a more 'modern' bench other than break-down capability (which is not an exclusively modern concept). They do look snazzy, and the splay should make for incredible stability. Thanks for stepping up to Test, OF! (I'm jealous!)

Kenny, me too. lawl.


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## theoldfart

I'm fashionable? Wow!










I like its versatility










A saw bench on steroids


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## HokieKen

I think your saw got a dose of those steroids too Kev!


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## theoldfart

Ken, I did sweat a bit using it.


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## jmartel

I really need to get off my butt and build a bench. I've only got an assembly table at the moment, so it's way more difficult to do things. I've already got plenty of big timbers left over for the bench, but no time.

How long is your bench, Kevin?


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## theoldfart

JMart, details are here.


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## rad457

Kevin, Love that saw but hate to say love My Bandsaw more Although, for some strange reason I really enjoy cross cutting planks by hand? Wish I could improve my sharpen skills.


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## BubbaIBA

> Smitty, i'm Going to put Ken's idea to a test. I have three or four restoration projects that will be occurring simultaneously. I will need to move between two buildings so I am going to build a breakdown Moravian similar to Will Meyers version. I should be able to assess which style suits my way of working. And here I thought I was done with bench builds. So sad.
> 
> - theoldfart


Good on you. Even if it is not your main bench I think you will find it very useful. I keep one broken down in the corner of the shop just for that reason. Almost as easy to set up as a Workmate but close to as stable and useful as my shop bench.

BTW, for those that got their panties in a twist thinking I was dishing Roubo benches. I've built maybe a half dozen Roubos and still have a couple, one in the shop and another in the back garden. Both are good useful benches. I should not have used the words "modern woodworker", a better phrase would have been today's woodworker because many folks are moving more than they did in the past and wood is getting very expense. The Moravian addresses both of those issues plus the build is easier and quicker for the first time builder.

ken


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## ssnvet

> Over the years I've seen different style benches come into fashion, the latest is the Roubo. I expect its time will pass as well because it doesn't fit with today's needs.
> ken
> - Smitty_Cabinetshop


I think the Roubo is so popular because it appeals to the "gentleman woodworker." This is species that has made a lot of money in the world of finance, management or data, but feels unfulfilled because they are disconnected from the creative process of conceptualizing and making things with their hands (think Oliver from Green Acres). Hence the revival of hand tool woodworking, the prosperity of Lei Nielson and Christopher Schwarz, and the popularity of the Roubo bench.

I'm not knocking gentleman woodworkers… but they do bring a different mindset into the mix. Indeed, spending half a day sharpening chisels can be a rewarding experience (when you don't make your daily bread with your tools, or have kids at home demanding your attention or off at college bleeding your dry).

Hence for many, the work bench is not the means to an end, but rather is the end in itself.

I say to each his own. My personal interests are very broad and I find that I need a couple different benches to do them all. That said, my next bench will have a knee vice on it that is very close to the end, and may have a split top as well.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop

No panties a'twisting here. No gentleman woodworking either. I think people build what they want, or what they learn about, and make their own decisions. It's not for anyone to say what works for them is the way forward for others.

Am I an advocate for Roubo style benches? Of course. And that's been made clear across dozens of my blog posts. It's awesome doing work with a tool that is stout and strong, and doesn't scoot across the floor. Never had a 250lb work holding surface before. Still love it. Am I going to make sweeping generalizations about others' choices of workbench? Hell no. Go there at your own peril. Others will disagree with statements like that. I do. And that's as far as I'll go. Have fun working wood!


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## HokieKen

My panties are untwisted as well. I'm with Smitty, I like my bench, don't need anyone else to like it and don't need to like anyone else's ;-)


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## KelleyCrafts

Well said Smitty. I just finished collecting all the wood and hardware for my next bench which I hope to be my last. Will it look like one of the "furniture" benches? Probably. Why not? I don't make my money from my shop. I sell things but could care less really. I also have a forge in the backyard with an anvil, a metal lathe and metal mill but woodworking is my main hobby, the rest just compliments it. Is a furniture grade bench better than a syp roubo? Nope but it inspires me and my projects and to enjoy the time I do get out there.

Overall, I could care less what anyone else thinks, especially the ones who want to say what's best for me. I hope everyone does the same for themselves. The only opinion that's right on this thread is mine anyway.


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## HokieKen

Your opinion is always right Dave. Unless it conflicts with mine. That's how you'll know when you're wrong.


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## KelleyCrafts

We're just brothers from another mother Kenny. I'm never wrong.


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## OleGrump

Plus one on the "No panties being in a twist". This is a BIG sandbox, with plenty of room for everyone to play nicely as they see fit. We all build or have built benches to suit our needs and situations. There are some truly beautiful and finely crafted workbenches in this thread. Some inspire covetous feelings in the Ole Grump. If I knew I was in my "dream home" (That is, the one where I will live until I'm carried out feet first) I'd love to build a very nice bench.
Sadly, Life has a way of interfering with living, and I have been forced to move more that I had ever imagined. Now, with the latest, unexpected move, I decided it was time to build a more mobile workbench. So, I have turned to building a version of the Bernard E. Jones (aka "Roy Underhill") folding bench. It is a bit longer and beefier than the original plans, being THE workbench in the shop, but is still easy enough to move that it will go with me, when/if the next move occurs. Adding a few touches, like detachable leg and tail vises, serve to make it fully functional in the shop, but easily disassembled for portability. If/When the next move happens, the bench will be up and ready for use in just a few minutes. meanwhile, it's doing what I need it to do.
I hope this thread will continue for quite some time. I get an ENORMOUS amount of enjoyment seeing the many fine benches my friends here at LJ have built or are building. I may not agree with every feature of every bench, but I love seeing them and their infinite varieties. there is no "right" or "wrong" in workbenches, just craftsmanship and ingenuity.


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## avsmusic1

Apologies if this has been addressed before and I'm just inept w/ our search but is there a general rule of thumb for how much overhand one can safety do? Or for that matter, how much is simply the most common for a functional reason unbeknownst to me?

4" red maple top if that's relevant

Thanks


----------



## HokieKen

> Apologies if this has been addressed before and I'm just inept w/ our search but is there a general rule of thumb for how much overhand one can safety do? Or for that matter, how much is simply the most common for a functional reason unbeknownst to me?
> 
> 4" red maple top if that's relevant
> 
> Thanks
> 
> - avsmusic1


Maybe I'm just having a brain fart but I have absolutely no idea what you're asking… :-/


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## theoldfart

I am so confused, glad Ken spoke up.

Maybe "overhand" is a typo provided by the AI in spellcheck?


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## Lazyman

Funny but I actually read overhang instead of overhand.

I'm actually thinking about a Moravian, mostly because it just looks sexy and I can't stop looking at them . The Rubio is like looking at Kenny's profile picture - very functional and sturdy, but I don't want to stare at it. ;-)


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## avsmusic1

Yeah sorry - autocorrect issue
I meant overhang which also may not be the correct term
I'm speaking of the distance the top projects beyond the leg on the end - the length cantilevered beyond the leg


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## HokieKen

> Funny but I actually read overhang instead of overhand.
> 
> I'm actually thinking about a Moravian, mostly because it just looks sexy and I can't stop looking at them . The Rubio is like looking at Kenny's profile picture - very functional and sturdy, but I don't want to stare at it. ;-)
> 
> - Lazyman


You just haven't looked at my picture enough Nathan. I'm gonna make a poster and send it to you. I give you 6 months and you'll have a Roubo built ;-)


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## HokieKen

As far as overhang, it depends on several factors. I believe the Schwarz had some guidelines in one of his books but not positive. I think it depends on a lot of factors like total length, span between legs, wood being used, vise hardware and what type of work you'll be doing come immediately to mind. Other things come into play as well. My bench has about 18" ovehang on one end and I can sit on it without the bench even noticing. But, double that and it would probably tip right up with my butt on it. However if I had a big tool cabinet underneath full of tools, I could have a lot more because the weight would balance it out.

Got it? ;-)

Seriously, more details may allow us to evaluate and offer suggestions about your design. I'm not sure that a blanket "rule of thumb" can be made for benches in general though…


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## MagicalMichael

I haven't posted here in a long time but this thread has really caught my attention. I have built two workbenches in my life and in a month or two will start my third.

The first bench, built almost 40 years ago, is a Tage Frid Scandanavian bench, which is still my basic workbench. That design has a couple of shortcomings. The top is perfect for cutting joinery but too narrow for any assembly work; and the joint at the corner of the shoulder lacked physical power. It was a beginning project and my workmanship left something to be desired. Still I have loved it and have often thought of it as my alter, where I prayed over and sacrificed wood! Over a long time the shoulder of the front vice began to flex and the tail vice began to sag.

A couple of years ago I sold my vintage General 3HP table saw and bought a new Sawstop. This required replacing the outfeed table. I decided to build the Classic Benchcrafted, with a leg vice and router table on the left end. Later I added the HNT Gordon tail vice, turning it into a very versatile bench. You can see it on the Lake Erie website:
https://lakeerietoolworks.wordpress.com/2018/05/17/heres-another-great-workbench-idea-may-2016/

I learned a lot building that bench, still I started out thinking I would update my bench with an improved Scandanavian bench, since I felt so attached to what I knew. But the more I read and thought about it the more doubts I had. Both the shoulder and end vice are very complicated to build. The Ruobo certainly had a lot of advantages and I like the function of the split top. but I didn't feel like I needed a second leg vice. In the end the scales got tipped as I kept coming back to how much space the shoulder vice takes up in my small home workshop.

Once I let go of the shoulder vice I needed to decide what would replace it? As an avid life long cyclist I have a hard time putting a chain & sawdust in the same space, which argued agianst both the L-N & Veritas vices. The Hovarter looks really good but I wondered about long term maintenance. I really liked what I saw on the web about the HNT Gordon face vice until I saw it at the L-N Open House, then I really, really liked it; came home and ordered it.

So I am almost ready to start. Split top Ruobo, without the complicated through joinery; 1000mm high; HNT Gordon face vice; Hovarter end vice. I still haven't decided on wood (Red Oak base, White Oak Top? Maple? or Ash?) Nor have I decided on dogs - square, round, 3/4", 1/2 "

Every bench is a unique response to the kind of work, tools, space, and imagination of the builder. There are many different benches I could have chosen and they all have strengths and problems, but I feel confident that this one will best suit my building needs and style.

I hope this post helps others grapple with all the choices that have to be made before building a bench.

Michael

After three years of researc


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## avsmusic1

> As far as overhang, it depends on several factors. I believe the Schwarz had some guidelines in one of his books but not positive. I think it depends on a lot of factors like total length, span between legs, wood being used, vise hardware and what type of work you'll be doing come immediately to mind. Other things come into play as well. My bench has about 18" ovehang on one end and I can sit on it without the bench even noticing. But, double that and it would probably tip right up with my butt on it. However if I had a big tool cabinet underneath full of tools, I could have a lot more because the weight would balance it out.
> 
> Got it? ;-)
> 
> Seriously, more details may allow us to evaluate and offer suggestions about your design. I'm not sure that a blanket "rule of thumb" can be made for benches in general though…
> 
> - HokieKen


This does help more than you may have guessed as I am unlikely to do anything >18". I just didn't know if there was some formula that would have suggested I keep it at 14 because of XYZ…

That said, I'm happy to share some initial specs - though I am just in the planning phase still. ~34.5" tall x 26" W x 5.5-6' L. Split top made predominantly w/ a red maple tree I had sawn a couple yrs ago. I will only have 1 vice to start - a 20" Andy Klein twin turbo vice - and am leaning towards using it as a face vice. I'm targeting 4" thick top. 
Pretty standard plan for the most part


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## HokieKen

I think you're safe if you don't plan any more than 18" overhang. In general, the benches I've noticed having more overhang than that are ones that have wagon vises of some sort where the vise has to end short of the front leg. I would probably make sure that your twin turbo vise (awesome btw, totally jealous ;-p) will fit in the tail vise position just in case you do decide to put it there down the road.


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## OleGrump

Michael, As you can see from the above post, I'm not a "hard core" guy when it comes to what people like in their personal workbenches. It's all a matter of individual taste and what works for that person. Since you have touched on the subject however, I will say I'm glad to hear that you've "gotten over the shoulder vise". I understand that those who have learned on them, like them. To me personally, it seems they consume a LOT of space, while providing the "benefit" of bruised hips. But again, that's just my OWN personal feeling. As stated in the Workbench Book, "One either has to adapt the workbench to themselves, or themselves to the workbench"....


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## avsmusic1

That's a good call Ken. The screws need <16" of clearance so I'll probably target 16" on one end


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## MagicalMichael

Ole Grump, thanks for your experientially based response. To be clear, In almost 35 years of using a shoulder vice I have never walked into the shoulder. I have walked into to handle of my leg vice, and probably the handle of the shoulder vice. I guess that visually the shoulder marks the outer end of the bench, so it's pretty visable. As for function, the leg vice is pretty good, but nothing beats the shoulder vice for working either the edge or end of a board. The two vices take about the same amount of time to build but currently, the leg vice has more hardware options.

My shoulder vice adds 280mm (11") to the width of my current bench, which represents a scant 5% of the width of my shop, but makes it hard to get to the window behind it. (See pics in my original post)

The HNT Gordon vice offers all the function of a leg vice or shoulder vice; without any of the drawbacks (no racking, no twin screws, no chain) is much easier to install; takes up even less space and costs about the same. (admittedly I scored a freebe on shipping).

I'm really looking forward to this build, am moving toward a final decision on dimensions (1000H x 600W X 2000MM L
I'm also moving toward ash but am still undecided about sq vs rd dog holes.

Michael


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## HokieKen

avsmusic, I would recommend you go with what you need for overhang and no more if you don't have a reason for it. A broader span of the legs gives more stability and provides room for more tool storage below whether that be a shelf or a cabinet.


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## avsmusic1

> avsmusic, I would recommend you go with what you need for overhang and no more if you don't have a reason for it. A broader span of the legs gives more stability and provides room for more tool storage below whether that be a shelf or a cabinet.
> 
> - HokieKen


Yeah I'm targeting a 36" min for cabinet space - hopefully that'll work


----------



## MagicalMichael

Planning a bench seems to involve a thousand decisions, even if one is working from an available plan. I am, hopefully only a few weeks away from beginning building using the Benchcrafted split top roubo plans customized for the size I need - taller and shorter. I have opted for the HNT Gordon face vice instead of a leg vice, since I already have one at the end of my outfeed table (see Lake Erie Blog, May '15) but have gone back and forth on the tail vice. Last week I was all set on the Hovarter, then started wondering how the technology would hold up over the years and if I could get replace parts 10 yers from now. So I switched to the Lake Erie. But that started feeling like a lot of work and the Benchcrafted is about the same price, so that's where I am today.

I have been studying the plans and instructions for both the bench & vice carefully and have two questions about the top which I hope some of you might have good experience to address. First, instead of putting the split right in the middle I am considering making the back section 200 mm ( 8") and the front 360 mm (14 3/8). Can anyone see any complications that might arise from this configuration? Having built the stock design does anyone sometimes wish that stop were a bit further back?

Second. Chris Schwartz is quite adamant about drawboarding the leg tenons into the top but the Benchcrafted plans instead call for two lag screws, although they don't (or at least I don't see) indicate the size of the screw or holes. I anticipate having to move this bench in a couple of years so being able to disassemble is imperative. My experience with lag screws is not reassuring. I am considering a third approach. I would add a tenon the length of the short top rail and let it sit snugly, but unglued, in a dado on the underside of the top. No pins, no screws just the weight and mechanical strength to keep the top from shifting. Whadya think?

Michael


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## MagicalMichael

oops correction. That last post should have referred to the Lake Erie Blog of May '17. Time flies but not that fast.

Michael


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## BubbaIBA

> ...I anticipate having to move this bench in a couple of years so being able to disassemble is imperative. My experience with lag screws is not reassuring. I am considering a third approach. I would add a tenon the length of the short top rail and let it sit snugly, but unglued, in a dado on the underside of the top. No pins, no screws just the weight and mechanical strength to keep the top from shifting. Whadya think?
> 
> Michael
> 
> - MagicalMichael


Michael,

I'm a broken record on this but here goes anyway. If you think you may need to move the bench in the future the Moravian style bench is a better design than a Roubo. Full disclosure I think it is a better design even if you don't plan to move it but I'm a Moravian bench fanboy. BTW I have both style benches in my shop, the Moravian is used 60-70% of the time.

As to your question about an asymmetrical split slab, I've done both asymmetrical and symmetrical. The asymmetrical works much better. Of course YMMV.

If you decide to go with the Roubo and use lag bolts go to Home Depot and buy Spax made in Germany lag bolts. I've used them for years on workbenches and other high stress uses and have never had one break.

ken


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## CaptainKlutz

> I anticipate having to move this bench in a couple of years so being able to disassemble is imperative.
> - MagicalMichael


I would not use Lag screws either.

For my 'will be moved too often' hand tool work bench, I made custom knock down fasteners.
There are really simple. Used 1.25 OD brass rod. Cut 1" wide 'hockey pucks'. Drill/tapped 3/8 bolt holes on side. Then built the bench similar to IKEA concept. The 2×4 maple cross rails have hole bored in side, and hole drilled in end. Can then run a bolt from outside into cross pieces to tie the legs to each other. Fully broke down; I have 3 cross bars, 2 H shaped leg assemblies, and very heavy top. Have also learned that I have to remove all 3 of the vintage cast iron Wilton vises, or need 4 giants to carry it.
There is an image of the brass plugs/bolts in my project post if you look close:


The later addition of cabinets under top are also removable. Have 4 screws attaching the box sides to legs. Gravity does most of the work. This bench has been located in 3 different homes since it was built.

Though I will admit, the last move was a short 1.5 miles; and the local service I hired decided they wanted to move the bench assembled and fully loaded. Was simple with rigging doilies and lift gate on truck, they only needed 4 body builders to pick up each end of bench to put on wheels.

#IAMAKLUTZ not an expert.
Cheers!


----------



## TEK73

I do not think you will habe a problem with a assymetrical top, and I do think it is a good idea.
I built mine with it and have not had any regrets about it at all.

Regarding the assembly, I think it will depend on the way you do it as well as the other joinery. You are still going to have the tenons for the legs?
If the joinery is well enough done and the top is heavy it will sit firm without anything. Not to sure you will be able tonget it apart after the wood have moved a couple of seasons - but then again - who knows…
If you do not glue and you do not ise bolt - you will probably be able to add that later on if you do not get the bench sturdy enough.

But I I would (and I did) just have drawbored and glued it all up.
The bench is narrow so that it easy to get through any door, and even if a bit on the heavy side, still a lot easier to move than for example a piano or other large furnitures.
So if you are not planning on moving it somewhere you need to mobe it up or down a lot of staircases, ai would just make it permanent…


----------



## KentInOttawa

CaptainKlutz, it sounds like you built something like these from Lee Valley:









I bought my current workbench from someone who used them when he built my bench. My bench has only 2 rails, 2 leg assemblies and the top but it is solid, especially with a couple of hundred pounds of lumber stored underneath.










These bolts are extremely effective and easy to remove and install when moving a bench.


----------



## CaptainKlutz

> CaptainKlutz, it sounds like you built something like these from Lee Valley:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Kent


Yes, except the engineer in me wanted larger brass button than what LV offered. Those little 3/4" brass nuts are wimpy when pressing on wood, and this klutz has learned he can easily oblong the mounting hole if the brass nut is that small. Will break a ungraded bolt with larger 1.25" OD nuts before the hole gets larger. BTDTGTTS
Yes, #IAMAKLUTZ


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## MagicalMichael

Thanks to everyone for the feedback. It's very helpful. It's good to know that others have experimented with an asymetrical top and found it useful. My plan was to follow the Benchcrafted plan with three changes - raising it to 1000 mm (39 3/8) and shortening it from 87" to 1980mm or 78" and finally replacing the leg vice with the HNT Gordon Face Vice, which I am convinced will do everything my leg vice will do for less $$, build time, and space. I was planning on using their knock down bolts but will think about the LV offering. In any case I think I would put a big glob of grease inside the nut before assembling.

I have to admit that I have never seriously considered a Moravian bench. They are not mentioned in either the Scot Landis or Chris Schwartz books. A quick search of the FWW site didn't find anything either. Having seen pictures of them I could recognize that the design offered good rigidity with a minimal amount of material but to my eye they looked "funny". I also think the Roubo benches are overbuilt and that the rigidity of a bench depends as much on good design, joinery and workmanship as it does on weight.

Moravian would certainly be a jump for me this late in planning but I am going to think about it. Benchcrafted recommends buying 200 board feet of lumber for their bench. In ash, with taxes that comes to $800. Ouch. So score one for the Moravian which looks to use about 1/3 less lumber. I already have the Gordon vice and I don't see any problem in adapting the bench to it. But here are the shortcomings I can quickly see. The Myers design (and everyone seems to be coming off of that) is very low. Perhaps the Moravians were short too, and they used very tall wooden planes, but my 6' 1" frame and 75 year old back needs something taller than my current 35" bench. Second, the Moravian tops are very narrow and the tool well very wide. I don't like the narrowness of my current Scandanavian bench. That 13" top is fine for cutting joints but when I go to assemble a door, drawer. or frame, I also need more top. I need to think about how to scale this bench up. What will the legs be like in a bench that 6" taller? Could the top be spread, or perhaps built in two or three removable sections. Finally, none of the examples has a sliding deadman. That may not be a deal breaker, or perhaps one could be added. Things to ponder.

Michael


----------



## BubbaIBA

Michael,

The Moravian bench is very scalable, in all directions. I have one scalded to shop size in my shop with a 18" X 7' X 3 3/4" slab. I've made 'em with full width and split slabs as well as with tool trays. They all work, are very stable, are easy to build, and are cheaper (less wood) than some builds.

It is a very easy and quick build because all but one of the joints are "open" joints. Only one of the mortises has to have a "good" fit, the rest need to be loose.

Like I have said, I'm a Moravian fanboy. I come to it after having built a number of other style benches but then as always YMMV.

I'm finishing up a shop Moravian built for a smaller shop on another LJ thread or on my blog https://imaokguy.blogspot.com/ take a look. I will be happy to answer any questions if you have 'em.

ken


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## TEK73

The wood used in a worbench, at least if you are following the ideas of Swartz or looking at how it was traditional done, should be a suitable wood that is easily available to you.
Meaning that preferrable grows in your area - and that again normally means are available at resonable cost.
So - I would throw the idea of ash out the window and look at what wood is available to you at a resonable price (or free).
The harder types of wood are preferrable, oak, beech, ash, maple and so on. For the top you do not nessesarly have to join and laminate a lot of sh, you could use a large slap if you get a hand on it.
Maybe someone is tearing down a barn close to use - the beams from that may be used.
There are many ways to get your hands on wood - using old or reclaimed wood on a workbench may just as well give you a bench with a lot of really great character.
Mine was built from beech that I go for almost nothing (I was lucky) - I think it cost me under 100usd in wood…


> -snip-
> Moravian would certainly be a jump for me this late in planning but I am going to think about it. Benchcrafted recommends buying 200 board feet of lumber for their bench. In ash, with taxes that comes to $800.
> Ouch
> -snip-


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## MagicalMichael

I'm still studying this Moravian thing but want to respond to the post from Tek about wood selection. I live in far northern Vt and am surrounded by trees but do not have the time to air dry a local windfall nor hunt down someone with a portable sawmill, so I'm stuck buying kiln dried lumber from a local supplier. Here are the local hard woods available and the price for 8/4 rough boards in the order that I see trees growing here: Maple $4.70, Poplar 2.70, Ash 3.75, Birch 4.35, Cherry 4.95, Red Oak 4.65. I wish that Southern Yellow Pine was available, but it is not. Not long ago Beech was plentiful in the Adirondacks but has been wiped out by a blight. Most of the stuff that ends up in my shop is poplar & maple with some occasional cherry trim. Poplar is great for bases and drawer sides but dents too easily to be a long term bench top. Maple is hard going when you have to flatten it by hand. About 30 years ago I built two staircases out of ash and they have held up as well as the red oak staircase in the center of my house. So ash seems like the best choice for the top and either poplar or however much more I want to spend on the asthetics of ash

My current bench, a Tage Frid design Scandinavian has a 4" maple top along the front and that has held up quite well for 30 years, except when I did something really stupid! I feel pretty confident that a 3" top in a well built bench would do just fine, but all the available end vices, except Hovarter and Gordon require a 4" top.


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## BubbaIBA

I just finished my latest Moravian build. It still needs a little clean up but the build is finished.



















ken


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## Jeremymcon

I feel so fortunate to live in rural central Pennsylvania. Michael, those prices are crazy! Cherry actually isn't too bad, but over $4 for maple and red oak? That's nuts! I pay $2/bf for red oak here, and think that's too much, since the stuff grows like a weed and is ugly (flat sawn, anyway). Soft maple is $2.25. I guess that's 4/4 though… I don't buy much thick stock.

For my Moravian build I used construction lumber for the legs, Douglas fir here in Pennsylvania, and my lumber guy had some 5/4 hard maple that was short - only 7' boards, with some funny color variations, which he sold to me for $1.75/bf. I also can't believe even birch is so expensive! I think if I had to pay those prices for lumber I'd have a different hobby.

If I were you I'd go with the ash, or also look into soft maple - maybe that $4.70 price is for hard maple? Soft maple is plenty hard, and much easier to work with.

I'd also highly recommend the Moravian bench. It's a quick build, easy joinery, remarkably stable for its weight, and the small slab isn't as big a deal as I thought it would be. Though I made mine 15" wide, and the tool well only 8". Have on occasion needed a wider assembly surface, in which case unjust lay a big piece of mdf on top of the bench. I have also seen one person build the tool well as a complete 4 wider box so that it can be flipped over and the underside of the tool well bottom acts as an extension of the bench top. That's a blog called the quiet workshop.

I posted it a while back on this thread, but here's my bench:










It's not a piece of fine furniture, but I think its attractive in its way, I enjoy the wooden screw wagon vise, and I love working at it!


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## BubbaIBA

Jeremy,

As I have posted before that is a good looking and I expect very functional bench. I envy Your wood prices, here in the desert our cost per BF is twice or three times as much.

ken


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## MagicalMichael

Ken, The more I look at the Moravian design the more I see things to like about it. The key, so to speak, is that the bench legs create 4 triangles, a design which is stronger than a rectangle. Triangles make both post & beam and geodesic dome construction work, as well as 20 lb. bikes that carry a 200 lb. rider.

I read through, quickly to start, your blog entries on the build. Specifically I was looking for three things. First, can you point me to any resources beyond the Will Myers video and the Chris Schwartz blog entries on the Old Salem benches? 
Second, can you offer any advice on scaling the plans up but not necessarily out. I haven't tried to lay it out but wonder if I will end up with either legs that extend past the bench end, or interfere with clamping to the top?

Finally I was wondering how you cut the long, angled, through mortises in the leg? I found your entry lamenting not achieving the quality you had hoped for in this process. My first instinct would be to create a laminated leg and dado out half a mortise depth on each side, then create a dummy tenon to align the parts for the glue up. What did you do?
Michael


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## OleGrump

Michael, I'm a "PLUS ONE" on the ASH option. As a one time buy for a bench top, it would be well worth it. the bench top will probably outlive all of us put together. As my cabinet maker grandfather would say "Boys, Oak, ash and chestnut are all in the same close family". My sister has a bedroom suite Pop-pop made from ash in 1950. Having been moved to a few homes now, that stuff is damned near bomb proof.


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## BubbaIBA

> Ken, The more I look at the Moravian design the more I see things to like about it. The key, so to speak, is that the bench legs create 4 triangles, a design which is stronger than a rectangle. Triangles make both post & beam and geodesic dome construction work, as well as 20 lb. bikes that carry a 200 lb. rider.
> 
> I read through, quickly to start, your blog entries on the build. Specifically I was looking for three things. First, can you point me to any resources beyond the Will Myers video and the Chris Schwartz blog entries on the Old Salem benches?
> Second, can you offer any advice on scaling the plans up but not necessarily out. I haven t tried to lay it out but wonder if I will end up with either legs that extend past the bench end, or interfere with clamping to the top?
> 
> Finally I was wondering how you cut the long, angled, through mortises in the leg? I found your entry lamenting not achieving the quality you had hoped for in this process. My first instinct would be to create a laminated leg and dado out half a mortise depth on each side, then create a dummy tenon to align the parts for the glue up. What did you do?
> Michael
> 
> - MagicalMichael


Michael,

You hit the key, I've said for years triangles are stronger than squares. As far as other sources there are not too many that I know of other than Will's blog https://eclecticmechanicals.com/.

The design is pretty flexible. Length of slab makes little difference, it just changes the length of the long stretcher. My benches average around 860mm (34") high. At that height making the long stretcher tenon's long shoulder 250mm from the end will give approximately 200mm (8") of overhang. I know the bench can handle more overhang because to mount Will's wagon vise it needs, IIRC, 350mm (14") of overhang. One other thing the 15 degree angle is not a magic number. In fact Will kept going back and forth between 15 and 16 degrees when talking about his first build. You could change it a degree or two in either direction, simple math would tell you how much change is needed to get your desired overhang.

The angled through mortises do not have to be "pretty" nor tight fitting. Both need to be loose, the long stretcher mortise through the leg more than the "key" mortise. I've done them by drilling out most of the waste and just taking a wide chisel and beavering away which is how I did the last set. What works better for me is to use a pig sticker and mortise each side of the mortise leaving a reasonable web in the middle to chisel out to finish the mortise. The only problem is it takes about twice as long as just using a wide firmer chisel but it does give better results.

Hope this helps,

ken


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## OleGrump

Michael, 
Don't sweat the deadman. On my current (as in not quite finished yet) built to be portable when I move bench, I was racking my feeble old brain how to install a usable, easily removed deadman.
I found the solution here somewhere on the LJ site. A simple groove in the skirt (or bench top) and a tounged board which extends to the floor. The tounged board has enough play to slide easily and can be removed in seconds. May not be something to show off at cocktail parties, but I built it to WORK, not be a showpiece!


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## OleGrump

OK, I did run a bead down the length of both sides of the deadman to "pretty it up" a bit, but otherwise, it's strictly utilitarian.


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## MagicalMichael

I'm looking at the free pdf plans from Bill Myers Moravian bench and at the accompanying cut list. The numbers don't agree, e.g. the plan shows the legs as 3 1/4 X 3 and the cut list shows 4 X 3 1/8. This does not instill confidence. Does the video comes with more detailed and accurate design?

Michael


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## Sylvain

Michael,
when i made my workbench I adapted the dimensions to the lumber which was available.
It is nor difficult nor critical.
Maybe the cut list start from rough sawn lumber while the plan shows final planed dimensions.


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## BubbaIBA

> I m looking at the free pdf plans from Bill Myers Moravian bench and at the accompanying cut list. The numbers don t agree, e.g. the plan shows the legs as 3 1/4 X 3 and the cut list shows 4 X 3 1/8. This does not instill confidence. Does the video comes with more detailed and accurate design?
> 
> Michael
> 
> - MagicalMichael


Michael,

I've never successfully build anything from a cut list and I can't remember ever looking at the PDF files for this bench build. All the guidance you need is in the 2 part video. Even if you decide to not build the Moravian bench the video is worthwhile if for no other reason than watching Will work and the blind pegging information. Besides Will is a hoot. The video is a fun watch.

ken


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## Sylvain

Michael,
I have only seen extracts from the DVD and they are interesting. 2 3 4 5 and
Otherwise there is a PDF describing the construction and giving lumber dimensions after processing.
You said somewhere you have had your present workbench for about 30 years; I guess you have enough experience to jump in any built.


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## MagicalMichael

More Moravian questions. No doubt the people who sayI am obsessing too much about the dimensions in the plan are right, and I will have to go shopping for lumber, hopefully soon, and that will determine the length of the bench and stretcher. But…. Jeremy, would you mind sharing the length and width of your handsome bench, along with the top thickness. What did you use for a tail vice; it looks like Lake Erie, which implies a 4" top.

And…. the Moravian bench touts its portability but I have been wondering about just moving it about the shop. I often shift my bench around, not much, just a foot or two this way or that. Can you easily do that or does the loose pinned top simply lift off? Perhaps, with out the leg vice it could be lifted by the base and dragged a bit.

Michael


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## Jeremymcon

Michael,

I can tell you that my slab is 3" thick, my tail vise screw is a 1 1/2" screw that I made myself with a threading kit. Actually I turned the blank on my spring pole lathe as my benchtop lathe didn't quite have the capacity!

I believe my slab is 16" wide, but I'll go take some measurements later today if I think of it.

I can drag the bench around a little as long as I don't lift the slab. I thought about bolting the top to the cross stretchers - it'd be easy enough to do. But I just haven't because it hasn't become a problem. Even with the kind of large overhang I have on the tail vise side I've never accidentally lifted the slab. In hard maple I think I calculated that the slab weighs around 110-120 lbs. I never weighed it. I can lift it myself, but can't really carry it very far.


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## Chenier

> Ken, The more I look at the Moravian design the more I see things to like about it. The key, so to speak, is that the bench legs create 4 triangles, a design which is stronger than a rectangle. Triangles make both post & beam and geodesic dome construction work, as well as 20 lb. bikes that carry a 200 lb. rider.


It's not clear to me why the Moravian Bench is as strong as it apparently is. The design doesn't have triangles - it has trapezoids. The legs inherently want to collapse inward when weight is applied to the top. There's nothing to stop that collapse except the thru-tendons of the lengthwise stretchers low down on the legs and the (seemingly) feeble pins that position the benchtop. What am I missing?


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## HokieKen

Chenier, I believe the theory is that because the legs are splayed on one end, there is more stability against lateral forces such as hand planing. As you say though, the splayed legs provide less strength against vertical force such as heavy objects or heavy blows when chopping mortises for example.

That's just my understanding from what I've read about the Moravian benches. I don't have one so take it for what it's worth ;-)


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## Jeremymcon

I thought the pins seemed too weak too, which is why I used a 7/8" hard maple pin on mine. Made sure it was a little oversized so it's super tight in the Douglas fir cross piece it is glued into. It occasionally takes the full force of my leg vise when holding narrow stock, so I was worried that I'd shear off a 1/2" pin.


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## BubbaIBA

> Ken, The more I look at the Moravian design the more I see things to like about it. The key, so to speak, is that the bench legs create 4 triangles, a design which is stronger than a rectangle. Triangles make both post & beam and geodesic dome construction work, as well as 20 lb. bikes that carry a 200 lb. rider.
> 
> It s not clear to me why the Moravian Bench is as strong as it apparently is. The design doesn t have triangles - it has trapezoids. The legs inherently want to collapse inward when weight is applied to the top. There s nothing to stop that collapse except the thru-tendons of the lengthwise stretchers low down on the legs and the (seemingly) feeble pins that position the benchtop. What am I missing?
> 
> - Chenier


Chenier,

You are correct Just looking at the bench it shouldn't be as strong and stable as it is.

With the pegs at each end of the trapezoid connected by a thick slab, the bottom restrained by the long stretcher keys, and the whole thing forming a "box" there is no way for it to collapse from any reasonable weight or to rack from a horizontal force. As I have posted before, the design is brilliant. It took building several and working on them for this dumb ol' West Texas Farm Boy to cop to how good it was but eventually I did and became a fanboy.

The bench is a perfect example of the sum being greater than its parts.

ken


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## BubbaIBA

> I thought the pins seemed too weak too, which is why I used a 7/8" hard maple pin on mine. Made sure it was a little oversized so it s super tight in the Douglas fir cross piece it is glued into. It occasionally takes the full force of my leg vise when holding narrow stock, so I was worried that I d shear off a 1/2" pin.
> 
> - Jeremymcon


Jeremy,

I've been working on Moravian benches with 5/8" Oak pegs for several years with no problems nor do I expect any.

It would be interesting to know how long the bench in Old Salem was in service. From the look of it it was some time and there is no evidence of peg failure that I know of.

ken


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## Sylvain

Jeremy

On Ken's workbench, the force between the vise chop and the slab is taken by the stub tenon between the vise backer and the slab. There should be no risk for the slab positioning pegs.

"It occasionally takes the full force of my leg vise when holding narrow stock, so I was worried that I'd shear off a 1/2" pin." 
But, you have chosen the angled vise design and then indeed the peg is taking the force when clamping narrow pieces which do not also bear on he leg.

They do not work in the same way.


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## TEK73

It seems to me that the lower streches will keep the legs from going above the given distance from each other.
As they are mounted in the top so the top of the leg can't move in, the downward fore would be transferred down as well as into the streches and cause the whole system to lock firmly as more weight are added. In teory something will break - and probably with less weight than legs going straight down, but it will probably still require a tremendous amount of force for that to happend. And until that point it will just be more locked and firm as the forces will help locking it.

Not a fanboy myself, as I prefer the split top roubo design, but I have to agree that it seems like a nice construction.
However - my roubo bench is for sure steady - and I love it.
I hope it will stand firmly and heavy where it is until I die, and then a lot of guys will be needed to force it out while swearing over me for building such a heavy bench ;-)


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## OleGrump

Look at the famous Dominy workbenches. By modern design standards, they "shouldn't" have held up under the use they received, using undersized tenons and no bracing across the back legs, etc. BUT, There they are, about two centuries later. If these Moravian benches didn't hold up under regular use, folks wouldn't be building themselves one, or two, or three, or…….

As one of my rural cousins usta say "Looks is deceivin'...……"


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## MagicalMichael

I've been looking at the joint and material selection in Will Myers design and scratching my head a bit. Obviously the through, wedged tenon between the leg and long stretcher adds tremendous strength and rigidity to the bench and the saddle joint at the top makes sense because it carries the weight of the top. But why a through mortise and tenon for the center rail? A drawboard tenon about an inch or inch and a half would be stronger. Why did the builder choose a smaller piece of wood and use a half blind dovetail on the bottom stretcher? Why a 5/8 pin? Sometimes when I'm building, things are a certain dimension because that's what I happen to have on hand. Sometimes a joint gets cut a certain way because that's what I feel like doing. I wonder if the craftsman wanted to give an apprentice some practice dovetailing on a piece that wasn't for sale?

This reminds me of the story of the women who asked her mother why she always cut the end of the ham off before baking it. Because my mother did. So she asked her grandmother and got the same answer. So she asked her great grandmother who said, "Because I didn't have a big enough pan."

Maybe I'll do what I think is best and maybe I'll do what's good enough and more convenient.

Michael


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## BubbaIBA

> I ve been looking at the joint and material selection in Will Myers design and scratching my head a bit. Obviously the through, wedged tenon between the leg and long stretcher adds tremendous strength and rigidity to the bench and the saddle joint at the top makes sense because it carries the weight of the top. But why a through mortise and tenon for the center rail? A drawboard tenon about an inch or inch and a half would be stronger. Why did the builder choose a smaller piece of wood and use a half blind dovetail on the bottom stretcher? Why a 5/8 pin? Sometimes when I m building, things are a certain dimension because that s what I happen to have on hand. Sometimes a joint gets cut a certain way because that s what I feel like doing. I wonder if the craftsman wanted to give an apprentice some practice dovetailing on a piece that wasn t for sale?
> 
> This reminds me of the story of the women who asked her mother why she always cut the end of the ham off before baking it. Because my mother did. So she asked her grandmother and got the same answer. So she asked her great grandmother who said, "Because I didn t have a big enough pan."
> 
> Maybe I ll do what I think is best and maybe I ll do what s good enough and more convenient.
> 
> Michael
> 
> - MagicalMichael


Michael,

What I noticed after building several benches is that each joint is the simplest to make that does its needed job. The only "closed" joint in the base unit is the middle M/T and it is a through mortise with a single shoulder tenon. A very easy joint to make with a thick strong tenon and wide shoulder.

The lower stretchers job is to prevent spreading of the legs. Again an "open" half lap dovetail is the easiest and best joint for that job.

The upper bridle joint is much easier than a M/T with no compromise of strength.

The 5/8" peg, from my experience is all that is needed. There is not that great a load on the pegs because the vise is mounted to the vise backer board which is in turn mounted with upper and lower stub M/T joints that take the load. But I expect a 1/2" peg would be a little small and weak, a 3/4" peg because of the angle could weaken the stretcher. BTW, I've spent an hour or two looking and thinking about the pegs and always come back to using a 5/8" as the best compromise of all the factors.

One of the best things Will did when making his first bench was staying true to the original bench. One thing I've found to be true more than not is if I can figure out how the old guys did it that will be the best way to do the job. I think it holds true to this bench as well.

ken


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## Sylvain

A well done tusk tenon is quite strong.
See the video
Collapsing of the angled legs is improbable.

"heavy blows when chopping mortises". Keep your chisels sharp and as Paul Sellers says "work with sensitivity" (including listening to the sound : tap tap … tap thud.)


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## BubbaIBA

> A well done tusk tenon is quite strong.
> See the video
> Collapsing of the angled legs is improbable.
> 
> "heavy blows when chopping mortises". Keep your chisels sharp and as Paul Sellers says "work with sensitivity" (including listening to the sound : tap tap … tap thud.
> 
> - Sylvain


Sylvian,

So true, in racing there was a saying that with a small change applies to mortising. I don't know if they still say "go slow to go fast" but in mortising it is "go light to go fast". If you are whacking the chisel and driving it deep both your speed and the quality of your mortise suffer.

Thanks for the video link, I had forgotten about it.

ken


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## MagicalMichael

I need help navigating Lumberjocks. I am considering creating a blog as I work through a contemporary interpretation of the classic Moravian bench. I have never blogged before but think it would be interesting, at least to a few people, if I documented my thinking process as I made choices, rather than focusing overly on the build process itself.

I started by finding the guidelines, and cleverly hidden instructions on formatting and embedding images. It took me awhile to come to accept that I would not be able to upload pictures directly from my computer nor would I be able to share them from iCloud where many are already stored. I need to establish an account with a photo sharing website. I already have a Flicker account, but in a moment of confusion I uploaded my entire collection, 6,000+ images. This puts me into pay to play territory, which I don't want to do and I haven't found any easy way to delete them all. Next I looked at Lightroom, but decided not to share my computer with Adobe. Finally I established a Photobucket account. It's pretty awful but I did get a test photo copied to the Lumberjocks site. Unfortunately the picture is obscured by the word Photobucket and a picture of a camera. I'm baffled by what to do next. Help appreciated.

Michael


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## Lazyman

Michael, I will send a PM with some tips


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## JayT

Michael,

You can load pics directly to LJ from your computer and it's really easy once you know how. When you have a text box open, just click the little button above marked "img". Click "Choose File" and navigate to the saved picture on your computer. Select the file and hit "Insert this image". A line of html will be inserted and you can see what it did by using the Preview button.

Hope that helps.


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## HokieKen

If you see this:









Then click on this:









So that you see this:









Then do what JayT said 

The "pictures and videos friendly" view is anything but…


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## MagicalMichael

Thank you Jay & Kenny. Mystery solved. My confusion arose from two peculiarities of the web site. First, in the instructions for embedding pictures I found this:

Sometimes, however, you will need to embed an image into a text area. These text areas look like this:

Rich textarea
They can be found in:

project stories
blog entries
comments
forum topics
and replies.
This is a pretty straight-forward process, as well. Basically, all you need to do is figure out a way to get your image saved somewhere in the wide, wide world of the Internet.

I took this to mean I needed to use a web sharing service. But when I opened up the Blog page and attempted to embed an image I got the "IMG" button which yielded the option for going to a PC (hopefully a mac too). Clicking on PC dropped down something like: " 1: Choose image", and, as I was told ,a drop down screen of my hard file appeared. I selected a picture and clicked "choose" Back at the Lumberjock page the picture name appeared next to step 1. But there was never a step two. Multiple times I scrolled to the bottom of my screen looking for it in vain. I tried pasting the image in and then looking at preview. No luck. Finally, almost by accident I rolled the mouse scroll over the small section with Step 1 in it and low and behold, "Step 2 embed image appeared."

I think I'll take a nap now! Look for my first blog in a day or two.

Again, thank you, Michael


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## TEK73

Please upload your image to LJ.
Pointing to a image on the web works nice when you do it, but it makes your post dependent on the external site with the image.
If that image is moved, for example because the site was updated to a new version (or any other of a very long list of reasons) , your post will no longer contain the image.

There are so many great and interesting posts out there that no longer is readable (a lot of them due to photobuckets change of their system) - it's just sad!
Do not let that happend to your posts, upload your pictures to LJ!


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## sk416

Nearly finished my asymmetrical split-top Roubo-ish workbench. Just need to flatten the top, add dog holes, finish the tail vise block, card scrape and oil. It's been quite a journey.


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## theoldfart

Nice bench, the Sheldon is a great vise.


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## TEK73

@sk416, holy ******************** - thats a really, really nice bench.
It's something about it that really appeals to me - I think it might be the thickness and sturdiness combined with the straight and a bit square design expression.
Is that Walnut you have used as wood? Here in my part if the world that is super excotic and very expensive wood.

I'm a bit curious about the top. It looks like each side is made of just two slabs, is that correct?

Again - love the design!
(and would take that over a puny Moravian bench any time ;-) )


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## Sylvain

food for thinking

SK416: good work.


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## sk416

> @sk416, holy ******************** - thats a really, really nice bench.
> It's something about it that really appeals to me - I think it might be the thickness and sturdiness combined with the straight and a bit square design expression.
> Is that Walnut you have used as wood? Here in my part if the world that is super excotic and very expensive wood.
> 
> I'm a bit curious about the top. It looks like each side is made of just two slabs, is that correct?
> 
> Again - love the design!
> (and would take that over a puny Moravian bench any time ;-) )
> 
> - TEK73


Thanks Tek. Walnut's expensive around here too but I found a guy who had a few very large beams that had been sitting outside under a bit of tin for a number of years. They needed some work but it was just enough material to build this bench. Probably around $3 a board foot if i had to guess.

You're right about the top, two beams per side, the larger beam is at the front and turned out to be the exact width of the sheldon vise once it was milled up, which was fortunate.


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## TEK73

Honestly, I think people are overrating the difference between the Roubo and the Moravian bench styles.
From the article linked to below:
«all means, go buy yourself a stake truck full of heavy timber and build yourself a Roubo»
And then this picture of an Moravian bench:









Seriously? This bench in the picture are built with just as much timber as many of roubo's are.
Jeeese - it's just some differences in the leg attachment and joinery.
The basic princips, the vises, the top - it's all much the same.

Saving wood? No, not nessesarly!
Beeing lighter? No, not nessesarly!

Beeing oossible to dissasemble, and thereby move around - yes, that is a real different. Important? That depends on the need of the builder.
If we are talking «moving around the shop» I would mutch more prefer to mount casters. If we tak move to a different house because you move - I would say I would move the whole bench anyway.
If we talk dissasambly and put a way for a while, or frequently move between different places, yes - but then you better build it light as well - much lighter than on the picture…

There are lot of different benches, all with pros and cons, and I on my part does not think this thread is the best thread to push a given design over others - there are a lot of lovely workbenches, roubos, morvarians and other that all are lovely. Lets enjoy them.

If someone wants to brag or talk about a different style of bench, ok - show us your bench and describe while you like about your bench - instead of commenting on while everyone else should build the bench you think is best!



> food for thinking
> 
> SK416: good work.
> 
> - Sylvain


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## Lazyman

> food for thinking
> 
> SK416: good work.
> 
> - Sylvain


A great quote from that :
"And by the way, if you can move this (Moravian) bench around while planing, you probably need to sharpen your irons. There just isn't enough weight to compensate for dullness."

I think one reason like that quote is because with a little tweaking it sort of applies to some people I know as well.


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## KelleyCrafts

Very nice bench SK. Awesome job. Please post a pic when you've completed it. That walnut will pop when it's oiled. Tail Vice is pretty special too. Should last several lifetimes. Nothing wrong with a beautiful bench inspiring your work day in and day out. I think that's a good thing.


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## OleGrump

TEK73 WELL SAID!!! As stated earlier in this thread, a person should build a bench to suit their OWN personal needs and wants, rather than what happens to be "trendy" or happens to have a "name" associated with it. 
Step one: Build a bench out of whatever lumber you have available to you as cheaply as possible. (Any FREE give away lumber works fine. Even curbside bulk trash pick up lumber). For God's sake, do yourself a favor: Build the damned thing AT LEAST 36" high. You may even want to make it taller depending on your height. Your back will thank you, especially in ten years or so. Keep your tools SHARP and you'll never have a problem. Your legs and upper torso do the work on a higher bench, not your lower back. Bore holes in lumber held horizontally. The chips come out easier, you can keep the bit more level and height is not an issue. .
Step two: Use this bench for a few years, and decide what you like and what you dislike about it. (You can also make changes to this bench to suit your needs as they evolve)
Step Three: IF desired, after a few years, build your second bench to incorporate the features YOU need and want, not what someone else TELLS you you "should have".
REMEMBER: If only one workbench style worked for every trade and every person on earth, there wouldn't be so many different styles of workbenches which have evolved over the last several hundred years.


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## MagicalMichael

Bench height. I suspect the popular 34 - 36" number, along with the even lower classic Moravian coming in at 33 5/8 all come from a different era. Men were shorter. Wooden planes had 3-4" bases, which affectively raises the working height. I have recently watched two Youtube videos on bench height which make a lot of sense to me.

The first, from Paul Sellers, disputes the idea that modern iron planes need any additional downward pressure. In the video, he ties a rope around a #4 Stanley and drags it across a piece of pine. It cuts beautifully. He states that he is 5'11" and uses a bench that is 38" high.

In the second HNT Gordon (Aussie toolmaker) approaches the question of height from tool design and biodynamics. He points out that the plane handle (and saw tote) are shaped and angled so that the hand and index finger are at the same angle and aligned with the blade. From there he argues that the height of the bench, plus the thickness of the board and plane should put your arm in alignment with your hand on the handle. He suggest that for the most part this is about a fist worth of space above the board to be planed.

I am two inches taller than Paul Sellers and using Gordon as a guide, I came up with an optimal bench ht of 1000MM or 39 3/8, right where Sellers suggests. That's where I am building my new bench, and my back feels better just thinking about it!

Michael


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## bandit571

I am 5'11"......bench height comes up to my wrist…..Shop stool is 24" to the top of the seat, from the floor. I can sit on the stool at the bench, saw dovetails, box joints and other joinery….

As long as I use my legs to push the planes along, and remember to step along, no back issues. Jointing a board's edge….I raise the board up a bit ( 1"-2"..) which puts a plane about elbow level to me…

My bench, my rules.


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## JayT

My first bench was 35-1/2 tall, so that it could double as an outfeed for my table saw. That was taller than many recommend and still felt too short. Since I no longer own a table saw, I built the second bench at 38in tall. At 5'9", that should be too tall according to many, but I am much happier with that height.


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## KelleyCrafts

I agree Jay. I'm 6' and my current bench is 40". I'm going to be starting a new bench soon that better suits my needs and it'll be 39-40". No problems using that with hand tools at all.


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## MagicalMichael

I envy people who can work sitting down. I watch David Baron do it on Youtube; he looks so relaxed and I wish I could do it, but when I try my, mechanics are way off and it just feels awkward. Although most bench ht discussions seem to center around planing, as did my last post, I find that the real problem with a low bench affects me with sawing and especially chisel work.

I recently did a pair of pieces that had the tops, 600mm deep, dovetailed into the sides and by the time I got done with the chisel work, even after using a coping saw, my back ached, a whole lot. I use a 2" thick chunk of wood on top of the bench but it still hurts.

I also find getting the right height for end work, especially cutting dovetails, tricky. Too high and my mechanics are awkward and the workpiece flexes; too low and I can't see the line. I see that some have gone to separate Moxon vice to solve this but I resist bringing more stuff, especially expensive stuff, into the shop. I often use a wood screw clamped around the workpiece to stiffen it when it's set high in the shoulder vice. Others, like Shanon Rogers, have a small , but tall "joinery bench", which also wouldn't work well for me.

Michael

Michael


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## Sylvain

It is always possible to overbuild any type of workbench.
The original Moravian had a top only 2"1/2. I suspect the one shown in front of the Woodwrights School has been beefed up to please the targeted audience…

In the blog "The woodworkers Musing" here above, the Moravian is not the real subject. One should also consider the Nordic workbenches shown: "Scandinavian and German style cabinetmakers benches have long been the standard of both European and American shops. By comparison to anything in the "Roubo" class, they appear puny. "

The "Hofman & Hammer premium German Workbench - Large" has a mass of "only" 130 kg for a top 645 mm X 2150 mm. (see Highland woodworking).


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## bandit571

I get by just fine with mine..









Not even sure what "style" it is….other than "It works" and, I even can sit down to do joinery …..


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## TEK73

I had this before:









I did not do fine…

I have this now:








Now I do fine


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## Jeremymcon

TEK73 - Wooow that first bench is really something. Look how tiny the base is! Is it original to the bench, or do you think somebody found the top second hand and build a base for it? You didn't build that right?


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## TEK73

Hmm, I have not toght about that before. From the type of material and how it looked I think was the original.
The top is not as thick as it looks either. Not easy to clamp anything to that top.
No, I did not build it - got it for almost nothing and sold it on for the same.


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## Sylvain

TEK 73
I have to acknowledge your experience with a Nordic/German workbench.
Could you be more specific about what you didn't like about it.
(in addition to the skirt being thicker then the top slab)


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## TEK73

> TEK 73
> I have to acknowledge your experience with a Nordic/German workbench.
> Could you be more specific about what you didn t like about it.
> (in addition to the skirt being thicker then the top slab)
> 
> - Sylvain


Sure, but you have to remember that my comments will be about my specific bench. The same issues might bot apply to all european style benches.

The main dislike - and ghat made it quite usless for a lot of tasks - was that it was not steady. It was to light and the joints was probably porly buildt. Doing hand planing on it was pritty mutch impossible.
Better joinery might help, but I think mass is hard to beat when it comes to making something steady.

It was way to low for me - my back would hurt after only a short time of using it (but that is not mutch about beeing the european design)

I do not like shoulder vices as I think the construction basically is designed to force itself apart. I find it a challinging construction that I think often will fail - as it was doing on my bench. The shoulder vice also causes the bench to be very wide in that area, taking a lot of shop space.
I do also not find that vice very usable.
I love benches where you have everything aligned so that you may clamp long pices, or even a door, using the leg vice and a sliding deadman.

It had a shoulder vice - also a flawed design that almost always cause sagging - and so did mine. A lot!

I do not like the tooltray - but ghat is aldo less about the design and more about personal preferences.

It was in general very hard to clamp anything to the bench, as it did bot have a flat bottom.
I also like split top designs as that makes it possible to clamp through the middel of the bench - great feature that I use quite often.

The design makes it very hard to store stuff under the bench - I like it mutch bettrr when it is possible to have a storage area under the bench.


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## MagicalMichael

A voice in defense of Scandinavian benches and their vices. I am about to start a new bench build, and after three years of thought and interference have decided to build a Moravian bench. That said, this is the bench I built as a newbie woodworker some 35+ years ago.










It worked fine for 30 years before things started to wear out. It was built from the Tage Frid model in F.W.










There were three things things wrong with the bench, but flex was not one of them. The long stretchers are bolted onto the frame and I think I tightened them 2X since I have build the bench. The shoulder vice and tail vice have both been great over the years. The shoulder vice was easier to build than a leg vice, and much easier that a leg vice with scissors, which I have also built. I used it exclusively for all end grain work. The full tail vice gave me extra space between the dogs and I generally used the opening in the tail vice to plane drawer sides. The front 6" of the bench are 4" thick and provide plenty of clamping surface, the back half is 2"thick.

The original design for the shoulder vice called for a bridle joint, but should have been a M&T or dovetail. You can see it clearly in one picture, along with the two lag screws which attach it to the bench. I pinned it and then reinforced the shoulder with an angle iron. Not elegant but it worked. Second the bench at 34.5" has always been too low for me but had the advantage of being the same height as a table saw, which made putting it directly across from the saw possible. Third, my workmanship left much to be desired. The mortises, especially around the dog holes, are not pretty. I found the 13" working top too narrow for assembling doors and drawers and eventually removed the well, replaced it with 2" maple and screwed the well back on the bench.

It is true that the shoulder vice takes up a lot of room. I was not really concerned or even aware of it until I started thinking about a taller bench placed elsewhere in the shop. After about 30 years the lag screws, which attach the shoulder to the bench, had worn away enough wood to begin to cause some flex in the shoulder. If you look closely at one picture you can see the clamp which now stabilizes it. The wooden built tail vice began to show some sag. By 33 years or so it was annoying enough to convince me to build a new bench. Now, 3 years later I have the new wood stacked up and ready for milling.

Still 35 years is a damn good run for a beginners bench and 3 years ago I assumed I would replace it with the Franz Klaus bench. That bench, well built with something like the L-N hardware would surely last longer than 35 years. I plan to blog about the new bench and will probably put the first post out today or tomorrow. The blog will focus more on the thought process and I hope it will be helpful to others.

Michael

The front 6

The shoulder viice is held onto the bench


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## BubbaIBA

Michael,

"..The shoulder vice was easier to build than a leg vice, and much easier that a leg vice with scissors…"

I've never built a shoulder vise so no commit on its ease or lack of but my experience with building a "leg type" vise using a crisscross vs. parallel guide is that the crisscross is a much easier build and install. Mostly because getting the parallel guide parallel and fitted is a little fussy, the crisscross not so much.

BTW, looking forward to your build tick tock.

ken


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## BubbaIBA

> *It is always possible to overbuild any type of workbench.*
> The original Moravian had a top only 2"1/2. I suspect the one shown in front of the Woodwrights School has been beefed up to please the targeted audience…
> 
> In the blog "The woodworkers Musing" here above, the Moravian is not the real subject. One should also consider the Nordic workbenches shown: "Scandinavian and German style cabinetmakers benches have long been the standard of both European and American shops. By comparison to anything in the "Roubo" class, they appear puny. "
> 
> The "Hofman & Hammer premium German Workbench - Large" has a mass of "only" 130 kg for a top 645 mm X 2150 mm. (see Highland woodworking).
> 
> - Sylvain


Sylvain,

As usual you cut to the chase and make me smile.

My dad was a typical American, if a little was good a whole lot more was better. Of course that is not always true.

With workbenches I call it the "hoot" factor, bigger and heavier is sometimes just that, bigger and heavier but not always better.

ken


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## KelleyCrafts

I will be starting a new bench build myself in a couple of months when my schedule clears to replace what I currently have.

I'll be doing a roubo hybrid. A leg vise and sliding deadman but I plan to put a tail vise on like what Franz Klaus bench has. I have metal working machines so I'll make dovetailed steel plates for the vise to ride on so sagging shouldn't be a concern. I think the gap in the front that vise produces is conducive to the small type of work I prefer doing. Shaping with rasps and files and such. The leg vise and deadman should be able to hold and handle larger slabs I tend to work with for other projects.

One kind of bench doesn't rule them all. Personal preference is really key here and that's different for everyone.


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## revrok

That is quite the awesome outfeed table! I have built only one bench, but am starting to get the itch for another. I am going back and forth on types. My first is a hybrid English style, but there are some things I just don't like about having aprons. Make sure you share with us what you are doing!



> I haven t posted here in a long time but this thread has really caught my attention. I have built two workbenches in my life and in a month or two will start my third.
> 
> The first bench, built almost 40 years ago, is a Tage Frid Scandanavian bench, which is still my basic workbench. That design has a couple of shortcomings. The top is perfect for cutting joinery but too narrow for any assembly work; and the joint at the corner of the shoulder lacked physical power. It was a beginning project and my workmanship left something to be desired. Still I have loved it and have often thought of it as my alter, where I prayed over and sacrificed wood! Over a long time the shoulder of the front vice began to flex and the tail vice began to sag.
> 
> A couple of years ago I sold my vintage General 3HP table saw and bought a new Sawstop. This required replacing the outfeed table. I decided to build the Classic Benchcrafted, with a leg vice and router table on the left end. Later I added the HNT Gordon tail vice, turning it into a very versatile bench. You can see it on the Lake Erie website:
> https://lakeerietoolworks.wordpress.com/2018/05/17/heres-another-great-workbench-idea-may-2016/
> 
> I learned a lot building that bench, still I started out thinking I would update my bench with an improved Scandanavian bench, since I felt so attached to what I knew. But the more I read and thought about it the more doubts I had. Both the shoulder and end vice are very complicated to build. The Ruobo certainly had a lot of advantages and I like the function of the split top. but I didn t feel like I needed a second leg vice. In the end the scales got tipped as I kept coming back to how much space the shoulder vice takes up in my small home workshop.
> 
> Once I let go of the shoulder vice I needed to decide what would replace it? As an avid life long cyclist I have a hard time putting a chain & sawdust in the same space, which argued agianst both the L-N & Veritas vices. The Hovarter looks really good but I wondered about long term maintenance. I really liked what I saw on the web about the HNT Gordon face vice until I saw it at the L-N Open House, then I really, really liked it; came home and ordered it.
> 
> So I am almost ready to start. Split top Ruobo, without the complicated through joinery; 1000mm high; HNT Gordon face vice; Hovarter end vice. I still haven t decided on wood (Red Oak base, White Oak Top? Maple? or Ash?) Nor have I decided on dogs - square, round, 3/4", 1/2 "
> 
> Every bench is a unique response to the kind of work, tools, space, and imagination of the builder. There are many different benches I could have chosen and they all have strengths and problems, but I feel confident that this one will best suit my building needs and style.
> 
> I hope this post helps others grapple with all the choices that have to be made before building a bench.
> 
> Michael
> 
> After three years of researc
> 
> - MagicalMichael


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## revrok

I always love seeing your bench because you don't vacuum the fine dust and oil the bench prior to the pics. It just makes me feel good! I love looking at "furniture piece" benches, but mine never was and it gets more beat up every time i use it.probably be 50 years before it looks as good as yours! My tool well is always full too!



> I get by just fine with mine..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not even sure what "style" it is….other than "It works" and, I even can sit down to do joinery …..
> 
> - bandit571


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## MagicalMichael

A post with multiple points - a response to Ken, to Tim and an announcement to the group.

Ken, I was surprised by your post, especially the idea that incorporating a scissors into a shoulder vice is less taxing than a parallel vice or a shoulder vice. I found the scissors very taxing. I used the Hovater scissors, which claim to be more forgiving than the Benchcrafted. Still, it required getting both the leg and chop routing exactly aligned vertically, then getting the holes to hold the scissors spot on ( w/out a drill press I needed to drill from both sides). then the nut as to be glued dead on with the two holes. This was nerve wracking & time consuming. Somewhere I am off just a half MM or so and my vice binds as it closes in tighter than an inch. Not enough to interfere, just enough to make an annoying squeeking noise and requireing more force. Compared to this a shoulder vice only requires: an extra leg, just like the other four, an end cap joint like any other, and a pair of slots to line up the spacer. The only "precise" part comes from the rod that goes through the arm, the spacer and into the bench top. (BTW the Frid design has this rod ending inside the top while the Klauz bench more wisely goes through and gets bolted in the back.

Tim, thanks for the kind words about my out feed table. Since the pictures in the Lake Erie blog I have added the HNT Gordon end vice - terrific; and the SawStop router box for much improved dust collection.

Finally for those considering a new bench I encourage you to take a hard look at the Gordon face vice: https://hntgordon.com.au/collections/bench-vices-clamps/products/front-vice-no-racking

I never thought I would consider a metal vice until I encountered this one. I have purchased it for my new bench and believe it will do almost every thing a shoulder, leg, or face vice will do with almost none of the drawback of any of those.

BTW, I just posted my first Blog: Moravian Bench Reimagined

Michael


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## Jeremymcon

The major downside of that hnt Gordon vise is the price! I built my leg vise myself for around $50 in hardware plus the cost of the wood, maybe another $20 in low grade grade maple at $1.75/bf? I could build my whole bench at least twice for the cost of that vise!


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## MagicalMichael

Well good for you. The Lake Erie Screw package is $250 and a set of scissors $100 for a total of $350 plus tax. Benchcrafted $389. Add a big chunk of change for the additional material. The Gordon vice, $640 Auzzie translates to $441 US and the rest of us are near a wash. Especially considering that it takes up less space and installs with 6 screws.

Michael


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## BubbaIBA

> ...
> 
> Ken, I was surprised by your post, especially the idea that incorporating a scissors into a shoulder vice is less taxing than a parallel vice or a shoulder vice. ...
> 
> Michael
> 
> - MagicalMichael


Michaek,

I may have missposted or you may have miss read my reply. I've never made a shoulder vise, I've not a clue as to the problems with shoulder vise builds. I think I posted that a leg vise with a crisscross is an easier build than one with a parallel guide.

I'll check your build blog to watch progress.

ken


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## UpstateNYdude

> Well good for you. The Lake Erie Screw package is $250 and a set of scissors $100 for a total of $350 plus tax. Benchcrafted $389. Add a big chunk of change for the additional material. The Gordon vice, $640 Auzzie translates to $441 US and the rest of us are near a wash. Especially considering that it takes up less space and installs with 6 screws.
> 
> Michael
> 
> - MagicalMichael


The HNT does look nice and I thought about it myself, but the tiny handle seems like a major drawback on trying to really clinch something solid. I'm really interested to know how it works and I hope it is awesome, because I'm contemplating building a Moravian style bench myself using the HNT vises. The cost doesn't bother me as much as the functionality, I love my BC stuff it all works great and could care less if it can be made with $50 worth of parts as my time is far more valuable to me and I'd rather just get down to woodworking and not building everything myself.

Are you planning to buy the HNT tail vise as well? It'd be nice to have some more fine AU stuff in my shop to go along with my Vesper stuff (Chris is awesome and so are his products FYI).


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## OleGrump

I'm gonna play "Devil's Advocate", and bring up the fact that, while there are several distinct styles of benches, no one is required by law, or held at gun point to build their bench 100% according to someone else's plan. You can build your bench along a basic "style", but customize your VISES and other features to your personal liking.
For instance, the "Bernard Jones/Roy Underhill" folding workbench I have 80% complete is designed with an integral tool tray, and no vises. (Just a "frog" at the front of an apron) Mine has a solid top because I HATE a tool tray. I have added a detachable dead man and am working on the detachable leg vise and an end vise.
As one gentleman said in an earlier post "My bench, my rules". Don't worry about how someone says it's "supposed" to be built, build it the way YOU want it. Bandit has the right idea "I don't know what style it is, but it works for me.."

BTW, IMHO, there are several "VICES" about a Nordic bench. Personally, I wouldn't have one, for most of the reasons listed by earlier posts.


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## revrok

I agree, but then I'm an old cheapskate. I calculated my traditional bench cost me $61 including wood, leg and tail vises… I love looking at these pretty benches though! I also love watching those BC vise screws spin! Craftsmanship like that is worth the money. I just have wood to buy, lol!


> The major downside of that hnt Gordon vise is the price! I built my leg vise myself for around $50 in hardware plus the cost of the wood, maybe another $20 in low grade grade maple at $1.75/bf? I could build my whole bench at least twice for the cost of that vise!
> 
> - Jeremymcon


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## revrok

I LOVE my bench and I'll love my next one more… It's set up for how I work. I have to respect anyone that makes a good traditional bench of any "style" and out of any species of wood and vise. ALL take skill and embody the personality of the maker.


> I m gonna play "Devil s Advocate", and bring up the fact that, while there are several distinct styles of benches, no one is required by law, or held at gun point to build their bench 100% according to someone else s plan. You can build your bench along a basic "style", but customize your VISES and other features to your personal liking.
> For instance, the "Bernard Jones/Roy Underhill" folding workbench I have 80% complete is designed with an integral tool tray, and no vises. (Just a "frog" at the front of an apron) Mine has a solid top because I HATE a tool tray. I have added a detachable dead man and am working on the detachable leg vise and an end vise.
> As one gentleman said in an earlier post "My bench, my rules". Don t worry about how someone says it s "supposed" to be built, build it the way YOU want it. Bandit has the right idea "I don t know what style it is, but it works for me.."
> 
> BTW, IMHO, there are several "VICES" about a Nordic bench. Personally, I wouldn t have one, for most of the reasons listed by earlier posts.
> 
> - OleGrump


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## sk416

Hi Guys, just put the finishing touches on my roubo. It's been oiled, flattened and drilled for dog holes. Thought i'd share the end product.


































Here's a bonus video of the vices in action 




Now to clean up the shop…


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## MrWolfe

Sweet bench and moxon.
Deserves a post of its own i.m.o.
Congrats and have fun using them.
Jon


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## CL810

It's a peach sk! Thanks for the video, first time I've ever seen a vise like your end vise.


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## bandit571

Mine is in use, at the moment…









Either sitting down to do a bit of hand saw work, or…









Set up to do a bit of chopping…









Just to make a corner..









Ash is there to keep me from chewing up my bench's top…


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## Jeremymcon

> Well good for you. The Lake Erie Screw package is $250 and a set of scissors $100 for a total of $350 plus tax. Benchcrafted $389. Add a big chunk of change for the additional material. The Gordon vice, $640 Auzzie translates to $441 US and the rest of us are near a wash. Especially considering that it takes up less space and installs with 6 screws.
> 
> Michael
> 
> - MagicalMichael


Not to say that I wouldn't enjoy owning a premium vise. Just that I only have so much money (I'm just a medical lab technologist!) and I can buy a lot of wood abd/or a brief vacation with the money I could potentially spend on all the beautiful premium hand tools and accessories that are out there! To each his own, of course, but I do take some pride in doing more with less in my woodworking.


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## TEK73

That hardware stuff as well as wooden screws are quite expensive.
Beeing a cheap bastard (as well as doing woodworking as a hobby so that I can use a lot of time on it) I feel good about beeing able to say that both my vices (leg vice plus a wagon vice) cost me about $25.
The woood for the vice screws I got from some leftover logs at my brother. Small trees, so not usable for much else. I then made the screws myself using a jig I made from scraps and an old file.
I made the criss-cross from a 120cm long crowbar that I bought for $18.
For the wagon vice I also used about 5$ on some plastic like the one used for gliders in the Lake Erie kits (https://www.lakeerietoolworks.com/collections/wooden-vise-screw-kits/products/2x-bench-builders-bundle), and then a few dollars on some screws and washers.






























> Well good for you. The Lake Erie Screw package is $250 and a set of scissors $100 for a total of $350 plus tax. Benchcrafted $389. Add a big chunk of change for the additional material. The Gordon vice, $640 Auzzie translates to $441 US and the rest of us are near a wash. Especially considering that it takes up less space and installs with 6 screws.
> 
> Michael
> 
> - MagicalMichael


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## theoldfart

Andy, you've seen that same vise on my bench, It's a Sheldon.


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## KelleyCrafts

Bench looks beautiful Steve. Sheldon vise is awesome. That'll be good for a century or more.


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## MagicalMichael

To answer some questions about the HNT Gordon vice. I first came across this on Youtube and was very impressed by the design which seems to overcome all the drawbacks of both metal and twin screw vice. The precision and sealed screw make it work. I have also been impressed by the videos I have seen of the hovarter vice but worry about the long term staying power of an unproved technique and a one man business if parts are needed 10 years from now. The Gordon vice simply brings together long established technology - screws, nuts, and seals in high end, precision mfg. Plus I am a succor for things that work perfectly.

I too was concerned about the handle. It certainly has the advantage of not protruding into my hip as both my leg vice & shoulder vice do, but can it really clamp down? I took a chance and ordered the Gordon tail vice and retrofit it into my outfeed table. I am very impressed by the design, precision, and function. It takes very little force to work. I am 75 years old with some arthritis so that's very important to me. Then I got a chance to see and play with the face vice at last summer's Lie-Nielsen Open House where Gordon was plying his vices & tools. I was sold. Like the tail vice the face vice is extraordinarily smooth and requires very little force to achieve high gripping power.

The one drawback (and yes they are pricey but not so much amortized over the life of a workbench) is the speed. They are both much slower than either the Benchcrafetd & L.E. wooden screw and probably slower than the L-N & Veritas hardware. That is a real drawback in a tail vice but I think not so important in a face vice.

I am sorry if my comment "good for you" came off to some as a bit snarky. I didn't mean it that way. I don't have the time (left in life) , strength, or the inclination to scavenge for wood. Here in Vt, 8/4 Maple sells for $4.70 a board foot and the Ash I chose was $3.75. I think that is a price which allows everyone involved to make a living wage and I can swallow hard and pay it. I had to swallow hard multiple times before shelling out $400+ for a vice, but doubt I will regret it. If I enjoy a tool, I always forget the price.

Michael


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## CL810

Yep, my bad. Memory is going, going, gone.



> Andy, you've seen that same vise on my bench, It's a Sheldon.
> 
> - theoldfart


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## OleGrump

Got a chance to do a little edge jointing on some 1/2 X 5 1/4 crate slats that are 46" long yesterday. Damned glad the current bench is up to 36", as with the boards about 2" above the bench top, it worked very well. The vintage $15 leg vise hardware was working beautifully. Was a bit concerned about how the lumber would be to work, but it planed like a dream. Woo-Hoo! Also got to put one of my jointer planes to work that I hadn't used in awhile. There's something about the sound of a wood plane being used. Power toolers just don't get it, but hey, however one works that they enjoy….
To paraphrase the deer hunters, (and with no offense intended or implied) "Happiness is a huge shaving pile…"


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## Jeremymcon

> That hardware stuff as well as wooden screws are quite expensive.
> Beeing a cheap bastard (as well as doing woodworking as a hobby so that I can use a lot of time on it) I feel good about beeing able to say that both my vices (leg vice plus a wagon vice) cost me about $25.
> The woood for the vice screws I got from some leftover logs at my brother. Small trees, so not usable for much else. I then made the screws myself using a jig I made from scraps and an old file.
> I made the criss-cross from a 120cm long crowbar that I bought for $18.
> For the wagon vice I also used about 5$ on some plastic like the one used for gliders in the Lake Erie kits (https://www.lakeerietoolworks.com/collections/wooden-vise-screw-kits/products/2x-bench-builders-bundle), and then a few dollars on some screws and washers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well good for you. The Lake Erie Screw package is $250 and a set of scissors $100 for a total of $350 plus tax. Benchcrafted $389. Add a big chunk of change for the additional material. The Gordon vice, $640 Auzzie translates to $441 US and the rest of us are near a wash. Especially considering that it takes up less space and installs with 6 screws.
> 
> Michael
> 
> - MagicalMichael
> 
> - TEK73


Wow that's really impressive! I considered making my own wooden screw for my leg vise, but had no idea where to even start making a 2.5" screw. Did you make a thread cutter like the ones you can buy, just bigger? How did you make the threads in the leg? You must have some posts about this, right? I guess I should check your page.


----------



## TEK73

There is a you-tube channel, Carter's Whittling, that described how to make a screw and nut in details.
You may find it here:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLED804974DAE7359F

In this video he also explain how to calculculate the threads based on the size of screw and threads pr inch that you wont (fewer thread pr inch means fewer rounds to open/close the vice)

It was a fun experience to make my own screws - and it's not that difficult when you get the hang of it.

Doing it this way you may make threads directly in the leg of your bench - or you might have a «nut» on the back of the leg. I went with the latter - did not want to risk destroying the leg if I did not get the threads correct.


----------



## theoldfart

At one time Carter was on LJ's.


----------



## bigblockyeti

I'm still trying to find out more about this vise screw my mom bought for me some time ago in an antique shop. I'd like to use down the road when I have the space for a proper workbench but I need to know how I'm going to tap the threads for the screw before I begin. The OD is 2 3/8" and the threads look almost like they were sanded some how, they're near perfect in the less worn areas and I have no idea how to replicate that cutting internal threads.


----------



## Sylvain

bigblockyeti,
you might try this

In the Roubo time, they would protect a piece of similar screw with a coat of refractory mix ("terre à four et colle") and then use a mix of lead and antimony instead of the epoxy Joshua used.

" Roubo - Le menuisier ébéniste -IIIe partie, section III, chapitre X planche 279" 
About the mix, I am not 100% sure what it means:
"un composé de plomb & d'antimoine, dont la quantité en raison de plomb est comme un à deux".
The strength augment with the antimony proportion but also the temperature needed (above 13% of antimony in mass) to liquefy the mix and so the risk to seriously burn the screw.

Just to say: we should not be ashamed to use epoxy if making a wooden nut is impracticable.

I guess you don't want to transform the end of your nice screw into a tap.


----------



## anthm27

For many here they know my shop is small, I do a lot of work outside on my roof top.
I wanted to replace my current outside temporary portable bench, due to the horrendous weather here in Hong Kong I really didn't want to invest much time or money.
The bench will live outside , it's more of a table for my drop saw and assembly type general use work bench. 
The biggest factor is it will live outside and cop high humidity, high temperatures and worst of all torrential acid rain.
For those reasons I didn't want to invest much time or money.
I bought some 8×2 pine planks and built this. 10 hours work so far and almost done , just need to trim it up and give it a bit of a sand and good soaking with decking oil
The pics show the new bench and it's predecessor which I estimate only lasted a few years in the acid rain.
Anyways the new bench is no work of art but it's functional and what makes it special is that there is not a single screw , nail or piece of steel in it. It's all constructed with dowels glue and clamp. Bench held down glue clamped and exposed dowelled.
Thanks for reading.


----------



## Lazyman

Nice functional bench Anth. Now you need to make some bar stools and it can do double duty on nice evenings.


----------



## anthm27

> Nice functional bench Anth. Now you need to make some bar stools and it can do double duty on nice evenings.
> 
> - Lazyman


Thanks Nathan, I'm sure the bench will get some happy hour use also.
Cheers


----------



## MagicalMichael

I appreciate your ingenuity in finding a way to do woodworking in a small space. Will you give it a good coating of something like Waterlox and maybe add a waxed cotton duck or canvas cover?

Michael


----------



## TEK73

Acid rain!
Sounds like something in a future doomsday movie - not from this world :-/


----------



## CaptainKlutz

> Acid rain!
> Sounds like something in a future doomsday movie - not from this world :-/
> - TEK73


If you have never been to any major city in south/cental Asia, you wouldn't know they have horrible air quality issues, that are similar to what US had during our industrial revolution. Check out this wiki pic of Hong Kong:









Rain dropping through smog becomes acid rain every time. Bare wood outside turns grey after a couple months, not years. It's a harsh environment for outdoor furniture. Just look at *anthm27* old bench!
In my travels, Hong Kong has become one of the Chinese cities with better air quality compared to rest! :-( 
Cheers


----------



## anthm27

> If you have never been to any major city in south/cental Asia, you wouldn t know they have horrible air quality issues, that are similar to what US had during our industrial revolution. Check out this wiki pic of Hong Kong:
> 
> Rain dropping through smog becomes acid rain every time. Bare wood outside turns grey after a couple months, not years. It s a harsh environment for outdoor furniture. Just look at *anthm27* old bench!
> In my travels, Hong Kong has become one of the Chinese cities with better air quality compared to rest! :-(
> Cheers
> 
> - CaptainKlutz


Very very Nicely explained Captain, I could not have explained it better myself.

I did find this definition though.

https://www.google.com/search?q=acid+rain&oq=acid+rain&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.4627j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Its been such a pleasant 15 years living here.

Regards
Anthm


----------



## anthm27

> I appreciate your ingenuity in finding a way to do woodworking in a small space. Will you give it a good coating of something like Waterlox and maybe add a waxed cotton duck or canvas cover?
> 
> Michael
> 
> - MagicalMichael


Thank you,
I will use an English product, oil based "Ronseal Decking Oil" And yes I may get a canvas cover for it.
The  Adirondack chairs and table that I built in 2015 are coated with the decking oil and live under a custom made canvas cover most of the time. They get re coated annually.

Anyways up to take my clamps off , lets see how flat this thing laminated together.

Kind Regards
Anthm


----------



## HokieKen

Bump.

Nothing to add but for some reason my "Pulse" page will only show threads active in the last 30 days…


----------



## Lazyman

30 days is the maximum you can select from the drop down box in the upper right hand corner of the pulse page.


----------



## MagicalMichael

My bench is finished. I have been blogging about it since the start in mid Sept., under the title Moravian Bench Reimagined. There are lots more pictures and discussion of why I did what I did, but not much on how I did it.



















I don't want to repeat here what I wrote in the 8 blog entries. I would like to give a shoutout to the member of the list who first suggested to me that a Moravian Bench might better suit my needs than the Roubo I was headed toward but I have forgotten his name and can't find the original post. Show yourself for a Thank You.

As you can see, this is not an exact reproduction. The main changes include: raising the height up to a pleasing 38 1/2"; making the working top wider and in two sections and the tool well narrower; replacing the leg vise with the HNT Gordon face vise, which is everything I had hoped it would be; adding the Gordon tail vise; and eliminating the through end grain in the legs.

I'm really pleased with the way the bench turned out and am taking a week or so off from woodworking while I catch up with the rest of my life, before launching into my wife and daughters wish lists.

Michael


----------



## Jeremymcon

You know, I considered a two part top, but I didn't do it. I think it makes a lot of sense - you can have a nice thick hardwood top and never struggle to move the slab around. My hard maple slab weighs around 110-120 lbs!

The bench is beautiful too!


----------



## Mosquito

Bench looks awesome Michael! I've been considering a Moravian bench for my next one


----------



## BubbaIBA

Michael,

Your bench looks good. It may have been me that suggested you consider a Moravian style bench, I'm pretty much a Moravian fan boy and strongly recommend a Moravian for today's woodworker. I'll look at your blog to see the "why's" of your changes before committing.

ken


----------



## Lazyman

I don't know if the Moravian bench is any better or worse than the other designs but it sure is a sexy looking bench.


----------



## MagicalMichael

Ken, thank you for leading me toward the Moravian Bench. There is a lot of personal preference in bench design. I am really happy with the basic design and also with the three changes I made - the 4" of extra height, the added, but not excessive depth, and the HNT Gordon vises. At some point I'll drill for holdfasts, but want to weight till I have a better idea where I want them.

I'm already looking forward to building new things with the wood fom my old bench.

Michael


----------



## BubbaIBA

> Ken, thank you for leading me toward the Moravian Bench. There is a lot of personal preference in bench design. I am really happy with the basic design and also with the three changes I made - the 4" of extra height, the added, but not excessive depth, and the HNT Gordon vises. At some point I ll drill for holdfasts, but want to weight till I have a better idea where I want them.
> 
> I m already looking forward to building new things with the wood fom my old bench.
> 
> Michael
> 
> - MagicalMichael


Michael,

You are welcome. I hope your bench works as well for you as mine do for me.

ken


----------



## woodcox

Fine work, Michael.

Ha @ cannibalizing the old bench!


----------



## MikeJ70

Since I plan on starting a new bench build in the next month or so, I thought I'd get this thread going again. I've been doing a lot of research and read through most of the original Smack Down thread as well as all of this one and have it narrowed down to either a split top Roubo with the Benchcrafted hardware or either a split top or solid slab top Roubo with Lie-Nielsen chain drive vise and tail vise. I am also considering the Benchcrafted Classic bench as there is something about the simplicity of it that really appeals to me.

My current bench is made out of 2×4's and particle board that I upgraded a few years ago by screwing on a counter top that I got from work. The only vise that it had was a big old bench vise with swivel base. Most of my woodworking to date has been home improvement type projects, so that bench did what I needed it to do, but now I want to start making more furniture so I need something that is up to the task. Since I have zero experience working with a real woodworking vise, I'm not sure which vise will best suit my needs so I am finally to the point where I just need to make a decision and live with it. I don't own anything from Lie-Nielsen, but I did get the opportunity to go to one of their too events last year, and I am in love with pretty much everything they make, however, I feel that their chain drive vise just eats up too much space on the front of the bench compared to a leg vise so I have decided to go with Benchcrafted.

Like I said in the beginning, I hope to start in the next month or so, so I am sure I will be posting questions as they come up. Thanks for reading.

Mike


----------



## HokieKen

Mike, I highly recommend a leg vise. I just retrofitted mine with Hovarter hardware. I couldn't be happier. Well, if I ever replace my parallel guide with the scissor mechanism I might be a little happier. But, having a quick-action leg vise is enough to make me have happy dreams at night. Not knocking on Benchcrafted hardware at all, it's great stuff. Just wanted to bring Hovarter to your attention.


----------



## Lazyman

Kenny, the Ancora Yacht Chain guide might be an easier retrofit for the parallel guide than the scissor mechanism. It looks to me like it is designed so that it will work with an existing parallel guide design. It would seem that you have to cut slots in the leg and jaw to add the scissor.


----------



## MagicalMichael

Kenny, I have a leg vise and slave at the far end of my outfeed table. It has a Lake erie screw and a hovarter siccosors. This was featured as a Lake Erie Bench of the Month (May 18?). I like the vise and continue to use it. I have an HNT Gordon face vise on my new bench. It does absolutely everything the leg vise can do, is just as strong, twice as smooth, and took about an hour or hour and a half to install.

Michael


----------



## MikeJ70

Kenny, Yeah I looked at the Hovarter a while ago, but I think I like the simplicity of a screw vs a mechanism that could fail. I haven't done any searches on it lately. Has anyone done any comparisons between the Hovarter and the Benchcrafted? How long have you had yours? Any issues?

Mike


----------



## theoldfart

My setup is a leg vise with a Lake Erie wood screw coupled with the BenchCrafted Crisscross. Powerful work holding and quick turning. Grip is strong enough to lift my 4" thick Roubo bench.


----------



## HokieKen

> Kenny, Yeah I looked at the Hovarter a while ago, but I think I like the simplicity of a screw vs a mechanism that could fail. I haven t done any searches on it lately. Has anyone done any comparisons between the Hovarter and the Benchcrafted? How long have you had yours? Any issues?
> 
> Mike
> 
> - MikeJ70


I've only had mine installed for a month or so Mike and before that I just had a vise screw from Lee Valley so I can't compare to the benchcrafted. I certainly understand the reluctance to avoid something that can fail. For me, the convenience of the quick-action is worth the risk.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

I agree with Kenny and the two Hovarters I have waiting in my shop for me to finish the kitchen and start building the new bench.

There's 100% likely hood that you will have to rotate a screw every time you use a screw type vise. A probably very small likely hood that the vise mechanism on the Hovarter will fail. I'm sure Hovarter would stand behind his products if it were to occur.

Just my .02.


----------



## MikeJ70

Dave, yeah you are right about that. I guess the Benchcrafted appeals to me more. To each his own. So have you figured out what style of bench you are going to build?

Mike


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Mike, Nothing wrong with the Benchcrafted stuff. They are time tested for sure. The wife bought me one of their swing out seats for my new bench when I get moving on it. I'm just going a different direction with the vises.

My bench won't be as simple as just a basic Roubo but it'll be a mix of a Roubo and shaker bench. I just looked at all of the things I need and checked the boxes.

The first thing for me was work holding, I was contemplating a two screw vise or a leg vise. I went with a leg vise after talking with others.

Second, the tail vise, I didn't want just a wagon vise I wanted to be able to actually clamp smaller items like hand planes in there to file and shape (I like making planes). I could do it in the leg vise but that would point the plane sideways instead of straight out. With a traditional tail vice I'll have both options and a wagon vise included. (so that fits into the work holding, see number one on the list). I'll use a Hovarter leg vise setup for the tail vise.

Third, storage, I always need storage and I really enjoy hand tools so I wanted storage built into the underside of the bench. So there will be a cabinet underneath with drawers and a small cabinet with a door to fit the old Stanley miter saw and some bench jigs, shooting board, etc.

I have it almost designed but have some details to work out. I still have probably a couple months before I get started on it.

Looking forward to the build but I would like to clear my schedule so I can concentrate on it and enjoy that journey without other shop projects getting in the way.


----------



## theoldfart

Dave, if your contemplating using holdfasts, leave some space between your drawer setup and the underside of the benchtop.


----------



## avsmusic1

I can't wait till more of Andy Klein's vises are out in the wild and they start popping up here. I'll be curious to see how folks around here think they compare with some of the alternatives that get discussed more regularly


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Oldfart, That was the plan. Was going to leave enough room for hold fasts and a vacuum hose to fit under there for some cleanup. Planned on putting a top on the cabinet area so dust and chips don't flood the drawers.


----------



## MikeJ70

Dave, so if I understand you correctly, you are going to use the Hovarter leg vise mechanism to make your tail vise? Interesting. I look forward to the outcome. It should be pretty cool.

I was back and forth between a traditional tail vise and a wagon vise as well, but then I read this blog on benchcrafted: http://benchcrafted.blogspot.com/2016/03/buckners-edge-dogs.html and it swayed me to go wagon.

I really like the fact that you will be combining several bench styles together so that it fits your needs. I usually try to come up with things on my own so I rarely work off a set of purchased plans, but in this case I think it will serve me well.

I finally sealed my fate and went ahead and ordered the hardware this morning. I ended up going with the Benchcrafted Benchmakers Package with the classic leg and tail vise. The package comes complete with all of the hardware needed as well as the plans. I have a few other projects at home that I have to do this summer so hopefully I can find the time to squeeze it all in.

Mike


----------



## KelleyCrafts

I do plan to use the Hovarter in the traditional tail vise. I've read that article you sent over, pretty cool little jigs but it doesn't do the same thing as a traditional tail vise plus it's yet another jig. I definitely have confidence I can make a traditional style tail vise work great and it'll be always ready as is. Each to their own on this one though, it just has to work with how you work, that's it.

The only thing I've been contemplating and I think I have a decision already is if I'll split the top or not. I'm thinking I'll keep it solid but I'm not 100% on that yet. Would be nice to throw each half through the planer.


----------



## MikeJ70

Being able to put it through the planer was key to my decision. Especially since I will be using hard maple in my build. I've been contemplating making the end cap removable so if I ever need to flatten it down the road I can pop it off and send the top through again, but dovetailing the front laminate is part of the appeal so that most likely will be the route I go.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

My top will be oak and local eucalyptus which is insanely hard and difficult to work but I use it on a lot of stuff so I feel it should be in there somewhere.

The base of mine will probably be ambrosia maple, I have a ton of it from an auction win. ight as well use it, cost was cheap.


----------



## YouthfullMind

Hi Kelley. My workbench requirements sounded very similar to yours. I ended up doing a split top roubo for its excellent work holding, and adding a shaker cabinet underneath. I wish I would have set the cabinets back another inch so I had more room for a sliding deadman, but I haven't had a need for it quite yet. Otherwise, I wouldn't change a thing with the design. You'll have to check out my workbench under my projects.


----------



## xedos

Lots of good looking benches in this thread.


----------



## Sylvain

Horvater has a mechanism for leg vises and another one for tail vises. 
Although the principle used internally is the same, they don't work the same way.
When tightening,
- on a leg vise, the mechanism pull the chop and bench together;
- on a wagon vise, the mechanism push the wagon away from the end cap .

For a traditional wagon/tail vise, use a left threaded screw and nut.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Very nice Youthfull, well done!


----------



## memilanuk

Well, I've read thru this entire thread (so far), and a bit of the previous, as well as other various 'workbench build' threads over the years. Still very much the novice here (finishing up my own Nicholson-style construction lumber bench)... been attracted to, but intimidated by, some of the gorgeous works of art that some people put out.

I'm very much intrigued by Ken's (@BubbaIPA) Moravian bench(es), though I think if truth be told I haven't seen too many designs I *don't* like. I'll probably end up with more than one, given enough time and space 

All that said… I think @sk416's walnut Roubo is absolutely gorgeous, and reflects a level of fit and finish that I can only aspire to. His blog at the web page in his sig line is amazing!

Alright, enough fan boi crap… as you were!


----------



## theoldfart

Let's see some build pics Monte. By the way you get extra points for all the reading you've done!


----------



## memilanuk

I need all the extra credit points I can get!

Work in progress… still need to put a few more holes in the top for the hold fasts, and then I need to double up the sides so they can take the hold fasts as well.



















TBH, I'm already kinda not liking this one. Never thought about not being able to use the regular push-up/down bench dogs with the apron… so now I need to make some drop-in dogs also. Not a big deal, just irritating.

Definitely need to sharpen up the plane irons and flatten the top and sides. All four planks taco'd on me pretty quickly.


----------



## AGolden

> TBH, I m already kinda not liking this one. Never thought about not being able to use the regular push-up/down bench dogs with the apron… so now I need to make some drop-in dogs also. Not a big deal, just irritating.
> 
> Definitely need to sharpen up the plane irons and flatten the top and sides. All four planks taco d on me pretty quickly.
> 
> - Monte Milanuk


Hey Milanuk, the biggest problem I have with my Nicholson bench is that it's really hard to reach under and push up/down the dogs. My issues is that my table saw sits at the end of my bench so i can't reach around to push up the dogs but I feel like I wouldn't have this issue if the table saw wasn't there. based on your comments it sounds like it might still be an issues even if the saw wasn't there.
holes so it still bothers me

Second thing to consider (and the second biggest frustration) is that I installed my face vice after I constructed the bench, and I didn't consider where the vice rails/screw would be under the bench so now some of my dog/holdfast holes aren't really usable. I had to drill additional holes for planing stops near that end of my bench that wouldn't be directly over the vice hardware. ultimately not a huge deal but it throws off the aesthetic/spacing of the holdfast










This is the hole that was occluded by the vice hardware


----------



## Mosquito

Question, do you have anything else stored under the bench? What about just longer bench dogs? (Might look silly, but who cares, if they're long enough that you can reach them from under the apron, it'll get the job done)


----------



## jmartel

Don't forget the bondo pose when you're finished, Monte. Looks great so far.


----------



## AGolden

> Question, do you have anything else stored under the bench? What about just longer bench dogs? (Might look silly, but who cares, if they re long enough that you can reach them from under the apron, it ll get the job done)
> 
> - Mosquito


Theoretically it is possible but they would have to be 12" bench dogs for me to reach them easily, it's a wide apron!


----------



## Lazyman

Here is a clever idea for a DIY pop up bench dog so you don't have to reach under to push up a dog. Unfortunately you cannot use a hold fast with this.

This is a similar one that is made for a square dog.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Almost finished the new bench. It all started with a couple Track Horses. Nothing fancy but, I utilized the space underneath the best I could for some tool storage. The bench is set up for a cutting table for track saw and it will be used as an assembly table. Still trying to decide if I want dog holes in it anywhere for clamping, stops, etc. The table top can be removed from the horses with very little effort and moved quite easily. The storage will just stay in place in that event.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Finished up my Roubo. No split too and a traditional tail vise.


----------



## TEK73

Bench pic…
DIY wooden screw for the leg vise.
Also DIY criss cross, made from a cheap rebar - works luke a charm.
But of course, with a wooden screw you do not get that «close it by spinning it fast» that some get with the benhcrafted hardware


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Tek, that's awesome!


----------



## jmartel

Tek, how did you do the wood screw? Looks like a different profile to the normal thread cutters to me. And much larger.


----------



## Sylvain

Looks like a buttress thread.


----------



## CL810

Awesome bench Tek. Love your wagon vise. Is that a hole above the hold fasts, what's it for?


----------



## Mosquito

Very nice Tek


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Awesome bench Tek! Well done, that'll last a few lifetimes.

Clayton, I think that hole is to shove a finger in to push up the dog above it.


----------



## CL810

I think you're right Dave.


----------



## TEK73

Thanks folks!
The treads are made using a DIY thread cutter, following a description I found on youtube, so not same as others made usimg regular cutters.
The hole above the benchfast is to access the doghole on top - so thet the "dog" may be pushed up from below, so,excaxtly what Dave guessed.
Probably will be repacing the screw for the wagon wize with one that does not extrude as much, but that will be when I do not have any other priority work that need to be done ;-)
Sinse those pictures was taken I have also got the divider as well as shelf installed:
(and build a fremch cleat wall -as you see')


















StRting to show some mark of use, as it should!


----------



## avsmusic1

My son's Christmas gift. Top was a remnant picked up off Facebook marketplace, base is air dried WO, and the vise was on table in the house when we moved in.

Finish went on at 11 last night so I ran out of time to drill benchdog holes, but he's 5 so his workholding needs are minimal / TBD


----------



## Newbie17

The workbench style completely depends on your style of woodworking. The Sjoberg 2000 with cabinet was the right fit for my shop. I could see the use for a leg vise, but currently I do 95% machine work. In the future (20 years from now) I plan to switch to hand tools, so my needs might change some.


----------



## Bearcontrare

Last thing I need is something else to add to my want list, but DAMN! This is just so cool!
Love to find one of these in my price range (Lotsa luck. THERE!) or draw up some plans to make one.
Sure coulda used one of these when I lived in a condominium. Yeah, the Workmate serves me well, but I could have taken this Workshop-in-a-box out on the patio, and gone to town.

Does anyone here own one of these babies….?


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

You've got good taste!

Ran across pictures of that bench a few years ago and loved it then, too. Like you said, good luck finding one.


----------



## Mosquito

Looks like the bench top folds up to cover the tool cabinet too. Pretty nifty


----------



## Bearcontrare

And modern people think people think they are so much smarter than folks were "in the old days"..... Well, we here at LJ know the reverse is true. Those folks were always thinking up some clever ideas to help them in their work.

Been studying the pictures and the patent drawing which I found on line. Seems like "retro-engineering" one of these would be doable, with maybe a little bit of trail and error. Lot of other projects on the 'to do" list already, with Beloved Spouse always adding more…... but, this is something I'd sure like to tackle "one-a these days…." 
If I had seen this about 18 months ago, I woulda undertaken this project then, but wound up building a Bernard Jones/Roy Underhill bench for use in the garage…..


----------



## Bearcontrare

Mos,

That's exactly what's supposed to happen. "Relatively" portable toolbox/workbench combination. Fold up the front and carry the whole thing to a work area. Their rarity is probably attributable to the fact that the size was still too bulky to be convenient for a journeyman. This may have been an item aimed at schools and other institutions who were still teaching "manual arts" back then…...



> Looks like the bench top folds up to cover the tool cabinet too. Pretty nifty
> 
> - Mosquito


----------



## sepeck

> Last thing I need is something else to add to my want list, but DAMN! This is just so cool!
> Love to find one of these in my price range (Lotsa luck. THERE!) or draw up some plans to make one.
> Sure coulda used one of these when I lived in a condominium. Yeah, the Workmate serves me well, but I could have taken this Workshop-in-a-box out on the patio, and gone to town.
> 
> Does anyone here own one of these babies….?
> 
> - Bearcontrare


You should be able to make one of these. Though I am not sure how portable it realistically is. The rear legs look solid 2×2's all the way up to the top. You should be able to find inspiration or plans under wall mount folding workbench. You could use 2 2×12's for the workbench surface, like the Nicholson style. That front apron sure seem to add an element of the Nicholson style.

For a more traditional style, the Moravian is also portable.


----------



## Foghorn

> Last thing I need is something else to add to my want list, but DAMN! This is just so cool!
> Love to find one of these in my price range (Lotsa luck. THERE!) or draw up some plans to make one.
> Sure coulda used one of these when I lived in a condominium. Yeah, the Workmate serves me well, but I could have taken this Workshop-in-a-box out on the patio, and gone to town.
> 
> Does anyone here own one of these babies….?
> 
> - Bearcontrare
> 
> You should be able to make one of these. Though I am not sure how portable it realistically is. The rear legs look solid 2×2 s all the way up to the top. You should be able to find inspiration or plans under wall mount folding workbench. You could use 2 2×12 s for the workbench surface, like the Nicholson style. That front apron sure seem to add an element of the Nicholson style.
> 
> For a more traditional style, the Moravian is also portable.
> 
> - sepeck


Pretty sure that's a steel base?


----------



## Mosquito

I had a whole thing typed up earlier today, but I never posted it lol

Wall mounted folding workbench is my best for it as well. I don't see it really being portable, but good for a shared shop/garage/basement space where it's not always needed


----------



## sepeck

> Pretty sure that s a steel base?
> 
> - Foghorn


upon closer squinting, you may be right. Still, you can get some square stock tubing and probably get something close. I can't find anymore pictures on the internets


----------



## Notw

There is also the Hammacher and Schlemmer gentleman's tool chest.


----------



## Mosquito

I remember that coming up quite a while back, and when I had my small apartment shop, I would have loved to have built something like that


----------



## controlfreak

^^^^That is the one that I think is so cool. I think they had an article on it in FW at some point.


----------



## Notw

Yes they did, not sure if the chest or the tool collection is more drool worthy….tool collection.

https://www.finewoodworking.com/2019/10/31/a-look-inside-the-gentlemans-tool-chest


----------



## theoldfart

Flagged elsewhere^

He stutters!


----------



## bandit571

Hmmm..









Hmmm…



























Ready Rack…









All sharp and awaiting their turns…


----------



## BurlyBob

Nice cabinet there Bandit. It's definitely going to be a great asset to your shop.


----------



## onoitsmatt

What happened to the Bondo Pose? Seeing a lot of new benches without it!


----------



## bandit571

Ain't got the room for one….on my bench..









Even during the rare times it IS cleaned off….


----------



## KelleyCrafts

It all stopped when Kenny (HokieKen) didn't do his. Figured if that dude doesn't embarrass himself even more than normal then we don't have to either.


----------



## Bearcontrare

Bandit, Unike Bigfoot and Nessie, at least you have photographic PROOF that the much debated "Clean Top Worckbench DOES exist, albeit very rarely seen anywhere in North America….... 8^)


----------



## sepeck

> Bandit, Unike Bigfoot and Nessie, at least you have photographic PROOF that the much debated "Clean Top Worckbench DOES exist, albeit very rarely seen anywhere in North America….... 8^)
> 
> - Bearcontrare


It's probably scattered on the ground to the left of the picture where he shoved it all off.


----------



## HokieKen

> It all stopped when Kenny (HokieKen) didn't do his. Figured if that dude doesn't embarrass himself even more than normal then we don't have to either.
> 
> - KelleyCrafts


You think a semi-nude pic on my workbench is gonna be more embarrassing than stuff I normally do?


----------



## KelleyCrafts

> It all stopped when Kenny (HokieKen) didn't do his. Figured if that dude doesn't embarrass himself even more than normal then we don't have to either.
> 
> - KelleyCrafts
> 
> You think a semi-nude pic on my workbench is gonna be more embarrassing than stuff I normally do?
> 
> - HokieKen


You have a point.


----------



## AshburnCustomShop

My great-grandfather was a master cabinet maker from Austria who moved here after the war (the big one). He was so skilled that an aircraft company recruited him to create all their wind tunnel models and work on some of the planes that still utilized wood. He made virtually all of the furniture for every house in the entire family… in particular, I'll be passing down the modular bunk bed - ladder - dresser - shelf - desk - chair set he made for me as a child. Thing was seriously ahead of it's time.

He had a woodshop that I cannot express in words to you guys. It was the size of at least a 4 car garage with every top of the line machine you can imagine. The centerpiece was his workbench, obviously… some of the pictures in this thread look similar but I'll try to dig around and see if I have any. I'd really like to make one in his honor, considering that all these years later his great-grandson would wind up getting into woodworking.


----------



## Bearcontrare

Well guys, I watched an episode of "The Woodsmith Shop", where they built what they called an "English Workbench".
While I normally find many of the people on this show overly prissy and behave like they're teaching a remedial shop class to the mentally challenged, I hafta admit that THIS particular episode was done very well and was pretty interesting overall. (Although the one guy still drones on in monotone that rivals Ben Stein) Even if you already have a bench, as most of us do, it is still an interestng program, especially how the garter for the vise screw is addressed. Dead simple, but highly effective!


----------



## controlfreak

I guess I never posted my new arrival here but I did blog about it a bit. Mostly a hand tool build but I did do some long rips on the table saw. Jointed and planed the top for glue up but ended up using a hand plane to flatten after the glue up moved everything around.


















Some of the tools used to make it


----------



## metolius

This build is getting closer to the finish line.










Its a variation of Bob Lang's split top bench.

Though I've been feeling as if it might be close to complete for a long while; maybe it could be real this time.


----------



## EarlS

I'm getting ready to head down the rabbit hole and build a real workbench. Unlike Kenny, though, I might even get a pose picture.

I have a set of plans for the FWW Ultimate Shaker bench. I like the idea of putting drawers in it. I'm also planning to use white oak for the top, cherry for the frame, walnut for the drawer fronts, and maple for the drawer boxes. Rather than the cut off ends, I like the dovetailed "breadboard" end. The plans only show a moxon vise but I'm leaning towards a Bencrafted leg vise and maybe a tail vise as well. Since I've never had a fancy bench, I'm looking for recommendations, suggestions, or any other sage advice from the group.


----------



## CL810

Awesome builds CF and Metolius! Great additions to this thread.

Earl, the only consideration I have to offer you is that I can count on one hand the number of times I have needed my tail vise. But I've wished I had a wagon vise too many times to count.


----------



## HokieKen

I highly recommend a look at Hovarter hardware Earl. I can't see a good reason not to use it after having it for a couple years.

I'm with Andy on the wagon vise. But, for power tool work, a twin screw vise in the end position might be a better option.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Earl I also run Hivarter hardware and it's good stuff. Quick release is the bomb diggity. I know you want to support IA business and bench crafted is a worthy one. I have their fold away seat.

Now let's talk about that shaker bench. I have plans for two shaker benches, that being one of them and didn't build either. Why?? Because you can't realistically use hold fasts on the bench and hold fasts are also the bomb. So I ended up building a regular ruboish bench and putting the drawers in there as a separate cabinet. My bench is higher than the average bench because I don't like bending over to use tools. My lower back thanks me every time. Plus, the gap between the cabinet and bench too is perfect for a rolled up bench mat and shooting board. So overall it's an awesome solution IMO.

Tail vise. I use mine 85% of the time but mine works as a wagon vise and an old school tail vise so it is very handy from the front of the bench. It really is my main vise for whatever reason.

Think through everything really hard, how you'll use it, what you want to use it for. I know you're not huge into hand tools so maybe some of these things aren't as important to you but think it through, it's not a cheap project. Kenny and I chatted about my bench for probably a year before I dove in and I think I changed my plan a couple days before even.


----------



## EarlS

I'm picking up some more oak and cherry on Friday since it is $2/BF for 8/4 white oak and 6/4 cherry, air dried for 3 yeas in a barn, but I'm not in a big hurry to start since I know the bench will be expensive and I don't want to start second guessing my build right after I finish. I will look at Hovarter as well. I'll also be doing a lot of reading on this thread and the earlier version. I'll probably take the plans and put them on SketchUp so I can tweak things as well. It is probably a good thing that I'm making a batch of clocks like the ones I made a couple of swaps back. I still owe Dick (recycle1943) one. I'm also working the angles to buy a good drill press since there will be a lot of big holes that will need to be drilled in the bench pieces. Same with a bandsaw, though not quite as "necessary". In addition to the bench, I need a new outfeed table for the table saw and the side table needs to be replaced as well. That project might be a good gateway into building the bench.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

If you like any part of what I did Earl and have questions reach out and I'm happy to give dimensions or anything based off of my build. Pics are in the projects.


----------



## Redoak49

I saw the Stanley combination work bench and tool holder and the comments. It was patented in 1928 by Egers. The patent drawings would be good enough to build one.


----------



## TEK73

For a bench build I value having the option to clamp down my work, either using holdfasts or clamps.
For me that caused me to build a split top roubo bench with a leg vice and a wagon vice. Very happy with it.
However, I do se many reasons for wanting a shaker style bench with drawers - just be sure you consider both what you get and what you loose.
I would also recommend going for a bench that is a bit higher than what is usually recommended, at least as long as you do not do plan to do a lot of hand planing (having a lower bench makes it easier to use your body wheight when planing).


----------



## controlfreak

My Build I deferred the height issue because of all the conflicting opinions out there. I ended up cutting about 1" off to match my new table saw height so if could double as a outfeed table. Seems to be okay in terms of plane use too but if it becomes an issue I can lower it at that time. One more advantage to the Moravian bench is it comes apart so something like a leg trimming is easy work to do solo. I may add some modular drawers below later. Modular so they can be removed separately if needed but I will need to keep the weight in check. Free standing modular will allow them to stay clear of the holdfasts, which I love to use.


----------



## Foghorn

I was going to build a bench from scratch way back when. My local LeeValley had their last 2 3/4" hard maple laminated slab in stock that had and almost undetectable ding on a corner. Got the slab for about $150 USD. They also had a sale on their maple legs which have since been discontinued. I had to add two 8/4×8" x 60" spreaders to it and a BB shelf. Way cheaper than I could have bought the wood alone for at the time. Heavy and rock solid. I think I got the last thick slab they ever sold here. A Veritas twin screw vise and a Tucker vise finished it off. I was cheated out of building my own for the most part but ain't complaining!


----------



## CL810

The expression, "Some assembly required" comes to mind Darrel.


----------



## Lazyman

> My Build I deferred the height issue because of all the conflicting opinions out there. I ended up cutting about 1" off to match my new table saw height so if could double as a outfeed table. Seems to be okay in terms of plane use too but if it becomes an issue I can lower it at that time. One more advantage to the Moravian bench is it comes apart so something like a leg trimming is easy work to do solo. I may add some modular drawers below later. Modular so they can be removed separately if needed but I will need to keep the weight in check. Free standing modular will allow them to stay clear of the holdfasts, which I love to use.
> 
> - controlfreak


I thought about making the height double as an outfeed too for the bench I finally hope to start soon but I think that I may just make something that fits into dog holes or even one of the vises that will act as outfeed support when needed.

The height is somewhat adjustable afterwards but part of my analysis paralysis has to do with how long to make it. 7-8' is out of the question and I think that I can make a 6' bench work in my space but I keep thinking that 5' might be long enough for the types of things I typically do. Will I regret not making it at least 6' long?


----------



## Bearcontrare

Re: Bench height and hand tools. Well known people like PAUL SELLERS repeatedly state the fact that there is NO PROBLEM using hand tools on a taller bench. One must bear a few things in mind. Planing is achieved by movement of one's upper torso and legs, rather than the lower back, for instance. (As you age, you WILL appreciate this, I promise). The MAIN thing about hand tools and a taller bench is to KEEP THEM SHARP!!! But you should be doing that, ANYWAY….....


----------



## Bearcontrare

This picture from Scott Landis' "The Workbench Book" shows exactly why I personally dislike a "tool tray" on a workbench. Tools get jumbled up in them, or fall off the main bench into them, only to be partially or wholely buried in shavings, borings and sawdust. Seems more of these fall into the " tool tray" than on the floor. It's a PITA to have to be cleaning out this dirt trap continually.
I had one commercially made bench that came with a built in tool tray. Within a year and a half, I filled in the void with solid wood. I have too much English blood to put up with that sort of thing.


----------



## rad457

The great thing about the tool tray is that it catches the shavings for burnishing the wood when finishing.


----------



## Mosquito

It's a pretty divided camp in my opinion. Personally, I love mine


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Definitely each to their own on it. I had one in my last bench, didn't do it on this bench. Just collected crap.


----------



## sepeck

It's probably a combination of how you were trained and how you work as to whether or not it's something you find useful or something you find annoying.


----------



## HokieKen

Tool tray is a definite keeper for me. If I ever build another bench, it'll have one too. Does it catch some crap? Sure. But if I didn't have a tool tray I'd just leave said crap on top of the bench where it would be even more in the way.


----------



## controlfreak

I collect tools on my benchtop until I realize they are in the way or block the next task. I then move to the tray. I am still getting used to it.


----------



## KentInOttawa

> I collect tools on my benchtop until I realize they are in the way or block the next task. I then move to the tray. I am still getting used to it.
> 
> - controlfreak


That sounds like the best and the worst of both sides. ;-D

I don't have one and my bench collects clutter, usually burying the marking knife, gauges and squares that I'm looking for. Some days I wish for a tool well but I've convinced myself that either style will work if we adjust our workflows and styles to match.

Here's a small shot AFTER a general cleaning.


----------



## controlfreak

How many times I say ""I wonder where my tape measure is"?


----------



## BurlyBob

Definitely going to have one in my bench. I'm tired of tools falling off the table and getting banded up on the floor. I can clean it out when ever needed. Replacing tools is a cost I don't like to repeat.


----------



## Mosquito

the tape measure is something I've been pretty disciplined with. It's either in my vest pocket, or it's hanging on the bench. I primarily use a small 6' tape, so it's easy to lose otherwise.

I also made a little cup out of scraps that hangs off the side wall of my tool tray that holds things like scissors, pencils, pliers, and screw drivers that I often use at the bench, or around, so they have a place to stay without just being tossed in the tool tray with everything else. It's hanging arm is also the place I keep my plane wax.

I also have some mallets and other stuff hanging in a similar way off the back of the tool tray, and a place for most of my larger squares to store.

Now that I think about it, I could really do for some more purpose built and permanent tool holding to replace what I have… it started as a place to store my 1" spring clamps that I used a lot. They were clamped to a scrap of plywood that was clamped to the tool tray. Started hanging the mallet from it, started using them to stand the squares up with the blades between the clamps, and stuff like that. I should make more hanging storage like the other cup I made. After using the bench the way it is for 9 years, I think I've settled in on that lol


----------



## controlfreak

> Definitely going to have one in my bench. I m tired of tools falling off the table and getting banded up on the floor. I can clean it out when ever needed. Replacing tools is a cost I don t like to repeat.
> 
> - BurlyBob


I have a wood floor so it is a little forgiving but if a concrete floored shop I would really think a tray would be mandatory.


----------



## drsurfrat

This discussion reminds me of my Mom's kitchen, evolved to her needs, but noone else could walk in and start cooking without 100 "where's the…" questions.

I am lucky enough to have room for my setup. My bench is perpendicular to the wall, so I can access both long sides, and i have tool rack over, but NOT attached to, the wall end of the bench, so no swaying and banging when I saw. I have all my common, frequent, small tools handy but off the bench. That, and a habit (still practicing) of treating everything like a lathe chuck key - either in my hand, or back where it belongs on the wall.


----------



## rad457

> How many times I say ""I wonder where my tape measure is"?
> 
> - controlfreak


While I do use a tape measure, for most things go with a story stick, have them all over the shop and the tray always has an assortment of lengths in it


----------



## controlfreak

Good point Andre. I used to search for plans that had exact dimensions so I could cut to them. Now I am embracing a I'll start here to determine the size there. It makes design so much easier, all I need to know is how big it needs to be to fit what I need in it. I still do create a rough sketch to get a feel for it.


----------



## EarlS

I change my mind from the Shaker style bench to the roubo style plans at Benchcrafted with the slotted center section that can be flipped up and create a back stop for a board. Since the bench will also serve as an assembly table I can't justify giving up the space for a tool tray. Whatever it winds up being, it is better than the side table on the table saw, which is what I am using currently.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Earl, the wood whisperer has a video or something about a base cabinet for that bench. I didn't build the benchcrafted bench but I did steel ideas for his under the bench cabinet. If you notice, mine looks almost identical to his. I don't have a split top so I had to flatten the top of the bench without the assistance of a planer. Split too has that convenience but I prefer a solid top. I have plenty of ways to hold a board so the center piece isn't necessary for me.


----------



## ssnvet

Re. tool trays.

To each their own, but I personally find mine useful. It collects crap alright… all the crap that I need available at the bench, but don't want above the plane of the bench top.

Bench dogs, bench cookies, stop blocks, parallel clamp blocks, bench clamps, and a set of small handscrew clamps. These are all tools specifically associated with work holding, which I want readily available at the bench, but I don't want to interfere with the work that is on the bench.

As for chips and dust accumulation…. that's what a shop vac is for. None of the items I keep in the tray are small enough to get sucked up by a small hose, so it's easy peasy lemon squeasy.

Under the bench is a 2×12 shelf with cordless circ. saw, cordless jigsaw, palm routers, and plunge routers… all set up, plugged in and ready to roll.


----------



## Sylvain

Paul Sellers loves so much the tool trays that he has a double one on his workbench.




You will notice the second one is deeper the the first one.
Although, 
- he has various boxes in the trays, so he generally knows where tools are;
- some tools/measurement things are vertically in hole at the right side of the second tray (it is shown on the video);
- he works most of the time in the vise.

Working in the vise works well for me. Now I have to make some more low profile boxes. I have one for my chisels but I made it too high, it comes above the bench level when in the tray.


----------



## bandit571

Old workbench was in need of a new top…maybe?









Ya think? had some PT Pine, left over from the build of a metal shed…so..









Off with the old plywood top, replace with lumber better suited to being outside….trimmed the ends with a cordless saw..









Doubt IF I will plane this top flat….









Overhang on the ends is 4" beyond the mounting brackets, in case I need to use a clamp, or two….

Old top?









Best place for it. May take a plane to the ends, for a bit of a round-over? On the new top, that is. WorkMate will spend it's time sitting IN the new shed, until needed, again.


----------



## ssnvet

> - bandit571


I would love to find one of those original cast aluminum frame Work Mates. They were the best ones.


----------



## Bearcontrare

Curious question here. Even though I have a workbench, and enjoy using it, I have a small collection of reprinted early 20th century workbench plans. I add to this as I find different plans from time to time. I enjoy looking through these about once a mo th or so, and admiring one feature or another, and the ingenuity behind each bench.
Does anyone else in the Group do something similar to this?


----------



## Mosquito

I can't say I do the same, but I do still buy books that pertain to workbenches, even though I'm in a similar boat. I've got my bench, and I'm happy with it. About the only thing I'd change, is maybe build a larger one of similar type now that my shop is bigger than when I built the bench. But it's still fun to read about other types of benches


----------



## Boatman53

Bear…. you are not alone. I have 6 books on bench building and a file folder 1 1/4" thick (yes I just measured) of copies and cut out articles from magazines. I have been collecting this info for 35 years. My oldest magazine article is 80 years old this month. I am building my take on the bench in that article and hopefully will be far enough along to post about it before the month is over. It's not my biggest bench but it will have a leg vise.
And to add to the disease, PM me if you are willing to share some of your favorites, I can certainly reciprocate.
Jim


----------



## theoldfart

Jim, how the hell are ya. It's been a while. All settled in and shop up and running?


----------



## Boatman53

Hi Kevin. We love Maine but nope, not all settled in and the shop is barely functional. Too many repairs on the house, building a garden shed, staying away from people. Getting the barn fixed seems to be the last on the list but I pick at it. Nothing like not having to work.
Jim
Sorry for the thread drift.


----------



## bandit571

Hmm, first…I need to clear off the top of my bench..









It's under there..somewhere…









close enough, now I can get to work, again….


----------



## drsurfrat

Does anyone have good vice plans for these monsters? They are 1+1/2" diameter, and have two threaded 'nuts' each. There is no place for a girdle, just straight acme threads. There are two, so a Moxon is possible, they are huge, so a leg vice is possible, and 14" long, so other configurations should be possible…



















I don't have an immediate need of a vice, but these are screaming to be made into one.


----------



## sepeck

You could just use the Banchcrafted plans but modify the mortices where the nuts are.


----------



## Sylvain

Just completed (except vise screw) a Moravian inspired workbench, for the son, with recycled wood.










story on the blog thumb


----------



## drsurfrat

You can have one (or both) of the monsters above, but i don't think 15 lbs (6.9 kg) will ship cheaply to Brussels. 

Ha ! nope, $100 US Post, $300 Fedex


----------



## Sylvain

Thank you for the offer but the son has already ordered a vise screw some time ago - waiting for amazon.

For 300$ I would prefer a 'Lake Erie' wood screw.


----------



## drsurfrat

> For 300$ I would prefer a Lake Erie wood screw.
> - Sylvain


No kidding.

That is a great bench, I can almost smell the pine (or fir?)


----------



## Sylvain

I made more than 60 pictures of the build but I won't inflict this to the community.
Thee things that might be useful though are
1. how I chopped wide mortises:
Making two narrow mortises and then chopping the waste in between.

















2. ensuring the grooves for the tool-well bottom are aligned when marking the pins of the dovetail joint.








(using an exercise-dovetail as clamping square and a small rebate on the 1.5 m long tail board)

3. "Spanish windlass" for long clamping:


----------



## Boatman53

I've alway thought a shoulder vise could be handy to have but when I built my bench I didn't want to have that extension sticking out from the bench all the time.
After much searching and just before I shortened an existing screw I found a short screw at a tool flea market gathering.
This is what I made. I now have a shoulder vise when I want one but it lives alongside the bench when I don't need it.










For some reason I can only post one pic. It is made to just get clamped into the leg vise. It still needs to get a good sanding and a bit of shaping to soften some edges but you get the idea. I'll try more pics later.
Jim


----------



## Boatman53

Ok here are the other two images I wanted to add. The middle filler piece is beveled to match the slope on the leg vise so when it is set in place it is supported at the right height while the vise is tightened. I used some hickory and a really dense piece of mahogany.
Jim


----------



## ssnvet

Jim… you're a genious!


----------



## Boatman53

Should have said 'not my original idea' . I first saw the concept in the early '80's in Fine Woodworking I believe. It was in the shop note or reader suggestion column. His version had plywood extend above and below the bench and secured through dog holes. I didn't want the intrusion on the top so just made it to fit into the vise. Light duty, as the more you tighten the harder it want to open the leg vise. But it holds secure enough for the things I've used it on so far. Worth the effort to me, and another holding option on my very versatile little bench.
Jim


----------



## Sylvain

Great idea,
Although I would like to know what the advantages of a shoulder vise are. (I am working "à la" Paul Sellers, in the quick release vise)
How much does it protrude from the edge of the bench-top?

"Light duty, as the more you tighten the harder it wants to open the leg vise. " 
You could have made the board/beam on the workbench-top side long enough in such a way that all the effort would remain contained in the shoulder vise add-on. In some way a clamp in the vise.


----------



## Boatman53

The wooden portion of the vise extends 12" from the bench face, the hub and handle are extra. The other screw I have the wooden portion would have been 14" and I didn't feel I needed that clamping depth. 
If I understand your alternative as a complete unit it would mean I am no longer clamping to the face of the bench. That could cause other issues that I didn't think were beneficial.
One of the things it could do that other vises can't would be to clamp a completed drawer as there is no screw or guide bars in the way.
Jim


----------



## Sylvain

drawer clamping.
I have seen this somewhere:


----------



## Boatman53

I'm not saying there is only one way to hold something, it's just an option. Also there is no bottom on that box. 
Jim


----------



## Boatman53

If anyone is interested I'm doing a blog 
https://www.lumberjocks.com/Boatman53/blog/132474#comment-5006276

About building this little bench.










Jim


----------



## Sylvain

"I'm not saying there is only one way to hold something".
Nor do I.
I just thought it might interest some people. My drawing shows a leg vise while I use a protruding quick release one.
The supporting board doesn't need to pass through.
An open box was better for the drawing clarity.

I have been searching on the net and what I found for the shoulder vise was the ability to clamp "from ground to ceiling" without rod/screw interference.


----------



## Bearcontrare

Jim,

I hafta admit, I have never been a fan of the BUILT IN shoulder vise. I always envision myself bruising my hips and cussing. BUT, I have really enjoyed seeing this clever device you've developed. What a nifty idea! Instantly installed when you need it, and instantly removed when you don't. Absolutely LOVE such versatile workbench accessories like this. A great big THANK YOU for sharing this one!!!


----------



## Boatman53

Thanks Bear, but all I did is adapt this









To my leg vise instead of the dog holes. And yes I too envisioned always bumping into it as my shop is small.
Jim


----------



## Bearcontrare

Yeah, but you did a GREAT job with your adaptation. I like the idea of using the leg vise rather than dog holes, myself.
This is one of many, many reasons I enjoy this thread so much. One person shares an idea, another person adapts it to their own use and shares their version and so on. The inventness and creativity are endless.
Especially encouraging to see in today's largely electronic world.


----------



## Mosquito

I know this bench came up a fair while ago, but I just came across this ad in the June 2020 Gristmill (MWTCA quarterly publication)

A decent looking example of that Stanley four square workbench


----------



## Bearcontrare

Mos, Don't know about the rest of the Group, but that looks like some serious "Tool Porn" to me…... I'm tempted to print and frame this for hanging in the shop…...

My name is Barry, and I am a tool addict…..... They jus ain't enough steps in the program to cure me…....


----------



## Mosquito

The workbench is rather intriguing to me, just because we were only able to come up with so much info on it when it was brought up before. Pretty neat


----------



## WoodWheeler

Hi guys, some beautiful benches here - all beautiful in fact - there's something special about any workbench.

I have been working off a bench I made nearly 10 years ago with a ply/mdf top and while completely functional, ever since I got more into woodworking about 5 years ago I dreamed of something a little classier.

I purchased the benchcrafted vise hardware about 3 years ago and it sat patiently until January of this year. About 18 months ago I stumbled upon some large section Tasmanian Blackwood, air dried for over a decade, and I knew that this would be my Roubo base. I had borrow a Van and drive 7 hrs to get it, and it wasn't cheap, but I was in love. The timbers were large enough to make nearly 6"x6" section legs, perfectly rift sawn, without lamination, and even a nice rift sawn piece for the vise chop 9" x 3" thick.

It took me about a week over holidays in January to make the base and then the rest over about 3 months when I could find some time around work/life.

The bench dimensions are - 2270mm x 710mm x 890mm high. Approx 90" x 26" x 35.5" . Top is 5" thick and legs are 6×6". Weight is approx. 260kg or 575lb. I used Benchcrafted knock-down hardware for the long stretchers.

I just need to make a gap stop. Not in a rush.


















































































Oh, finish is Osmo Polyx.

Cheers,

Dom


----------



## CL810

Beautiful bench Dom!!! That Tasmanian Blackwood is gorgeous. I sure wish I could get some here. Great display of craftmanship.


----------



## Mosquito

Wowza! looks awesome


----------



## BurlyBob

I agree, truly stunning. Far to good looking to use, get beat up, banged up and stained.


----------



## Boatman53

Well done. You should be proud.
Jim


----------



## ssnvet

Awesome job on that Roubo bench… one of the nicest I've seen. Joinery looks super tight.


----------



## revrok

Beautiful lifetime bench… congrats on a job well done


----------



## WoodWheeler

Thanks everyone, really appreciate the kind words. I'm really happy with the bench and looking forward to getting to know it a lot better over the coming years. May we age gracefully together .

Cheers,

Dom


----------



## HokieKen

It always amazes me when folks can cut them big Condor tails that thin down to almost nothing at the base and get them installed without breaking any  That is a stunning bench and a job superbly done!


----------



## EarlS

> It always amazes me when folks can cut them big Condor tails that thin down to almost nothing at the base and get them installed without breaking any  That is a stunning bench and a job superbly done!
> 
> - HokieKen


Hah - just wait, I'm going to try to make condor tails for my roubo build. Any bets on how it will go? I'm guessing it will be some kind of disaster which is why I will probably make 3 or 4 blanks so I can practice. Does re-gluing broken pieces count against me? Did I mention I've never hand cut dovetails before. How hard can it be??? ;+p


----------



## controlfreak

I am with Ken and am very impressed but not as impressed as the first time I saw them as a noobie, I thought they went across the entire width of the bench. I don't see how you can dry fit those without some tragic event taking place. Dovetails like this are something I would love to try but they are far down the list of the skill builders that I am currently working on.


----------



## Airframer

> Hah - just wait, I m going to try to make condor tails for my roubo build. Any bets on how it will go? I m guessing it will be some kind of disaster which is why I will probably make 3 or 4 blanks so I can practice. Does re-gluing broken pieces count against me? Did I mention I ve never hand cut dovetails before. How hard can it be??? ;+p
> 
> - EarlS


Earl I say just jump in and do it. Don't over think it just go slow and get them done. When I started my workbench build I had little to no woodworking experience and decided to do it as much with handtools as I could. The whole thing was like an apprenticeship program really and I learned a ton in the 9 months it took to complete. One of those lessons was how to cut and not cut large dovetails in thick hardwood lol. They aren't the best but they are my first ever dovetails and with some shims (lots of shims). They look fine and have held strong for 8 years now. Nothing ever gets done waiting for it to get done. Just jump in. It's only a workbench


----------



## WoodWheeler

> It always amazes me when folks can cut them big Condor tails that thin down to almost nothing at the base and get them installed without breaking any  That is a stunning bench and a job superbly done!
> 
> - HokieKen


Thanks mate,

The dovetails are actually surprisingly robust. I dry fit them initially, then separated, then dry fit one more time for the vice hardware, and then a third time for final assembly. No damage or issues. I even ended up not gluing them so I can always disassemble in future if needed - there were also no gaps so glue wasn't necessary as a fill.

Cheers,

Dom


----------



## WoodWheeler

> It always amazes me when folks can cut them big Condor tails that thin down to almost nothing at the base and get them installed without breaking any  That is a stunning bench and a job superbly done!
> 
> - HokieKen
> 
> Hah - just wait, I m going to try to make condor tails for my roubo build. Any bets on how it will go? I m guessing it will be some kind of disaster which is why I will probably make 3 or 4 blanks so I can practice. Does re-gluing broken pieces count against me? Did I mention I ve never hand cut dovetails before. How hard can it be??? ;+p
> 
> - EarlS


Layout. Layout. Layout. Careful, accurate layout is what makes nice tight dovetails. Use a good, sharp marking knife, ensure you mark with the bevel towards the waste side of the line, and take your time. When cutting, especially with large, thick dovetails it's critical to ensure you cut the tails square otherwise when you trace the tails to the pin board you'll already be out. Check the tails for square if you have a fine dovetail-square (I made one) - if they aren't square it's possible to get them sorted with a very thin paring chisel before you transfer layout to the pin board. Good luck! Have fun, take your time and don't put too much pressure on yourself.

Cheers,

Dom


----------



## CL810

For Mos, future FWW article.


__
http://instagr.am/p/CRo3ncLD8iR/


----------



## Mosquito

Nice, I'm getting closer to getting there. Thinking my current one might get modified in to either kids bench (hopeful) or joinery bench when I do. I just want a little longer bench now that I have the room and don't have to carry it down 2 flights of stairs out of my apartment lol


----------



## Sylvain

"it's critical to ensure you cut the tails square"

Interesting trick for dovetails in Paul Sellers "Tuesday tips 2" on Instagram.
using a square block of wood as a ramp to pare the dovetail square to the face.

For big dovetails one might need a wide paring chisel to use the trick above, one can use a plane iron.


----------



## Hammerthumb

So as I left my last bench with a friend in Las Vegas (to large to move to Washington) I have started a replacement bench from some lumber left by the prior owner of my house. She is a woodworker that left me a lot of live edge western red cedar and also some dimensioned slabs which had been stored outdoors for so long that they had rotted beyond being usable. As I need the space in my shed for other equipment, I decided to mill some of the live edge slabs into a bench. Not my first choice for material, nor have I ever done a bench without full length boards, I decided that this would be a good start in putting my shop together here in Washington. The lumber was free!
I loaded up a bunch of slabs this morning and drove down the road a quarter mile to my buddies shop that I helped set up a couple years ago. I didn't get a picture of all the material I took over, but he did and I'll post that later. Here is a couple of picture of what we accomplished today.
























Legs are glued up at 5.5"x5.5"x32". I will remove about 1-3/4" of material to expose 2-1/2"x2-1/2" x 1-3/4" tenons that will be morticed into the bottom of the top.
The top will be about 4-3/4"x 26"x 84". I prefer 3-3/4" to 4" tops, but as the WRC is a lighter wood then I have used on previous bench builds, I thought the extra thickness would add a little more mass. Also these are not full length boards and the extra thickness gives me a little more glue surface to hold it together.
I will follow up with subsequent pictures of the base assembly. This will be a knock down bench with the bottom stretchers M&T'd into the legs with home made bed bolts pulling it together.
I have not bought all of the hardware yet for the vises, but LJ Auggie sent me some pieces for a vice a coupe of years ago and all I really need for the leg vise is a cross cross which I will order tomorrow. I'll also order an end vise, but I'm not sure which one yet.
This is my third or fourth bench in the last 6 years. Having fun building it.


----------



## Sylvain

I have also made workbench tops in which some boards were not full length.
As I have no heavy duty clamps (as recommended by Chris Schwarz) I did my laminations one board at a time which ensure enough elasticity. 
I started the lamination by two full length boards. 
The front edges of the workbenches have full length boards.
To ensure a good fit between the ends of two partial boards, I passed with a saw between the ends pushed one against the other.


----------



## CL810

Looks awesome Paul!

Clever, Sylvain.


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## Hammerthumb

Thanks Andy. Here is the vise.









I provided the wheel and acme rod. August provided the rest. I have not heard from him for a while.


----------



## Hammerthumb

As promised, a picture of the raw material. I can hardly believe that I was able to mill a top and legs out of this in a few hours.








Starting glue up of the top.
















So I went and bought some wood for the stretchers. I have the legs milled up, and the tops glued in three sections. I'll plane those tomorrow and glue them together. While waiting for the top glue ups to dry, I'll work on the stretchers, leg assemblies and tenon tops. I hope to have time for the leg vise hardware. Here is a few pics of the same hardware from my nephews bench.
















It sure is nice to have a shop full of equipment and a good bench to work off of.
Here is a pic of me making the bench I'm using to make this bench.


----------



## Hammerthumb

By the way, here is a picture of the bench I'm using to build this bench








My friends Mike & Judy.


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## Lazyman

The wife is going to give me leg and wagon vice hardware for my birthday so I can finally start building my bench. I am leaning towards Hovarter. I don't think that I have seen any negative reviews but I was wondering if any of you have any watch outs for me before we pull the trigger and order them.


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## theoldfart

Really moving along Paul. Should be a seriously stout bench.


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## Hammerthumb

Thanks OF. Hoping to have all done but the criss-cross by Saturday.

Nathan - if I'm not mistaken, I thing Jmartel has a Hovarter installed on his bench. From what I can remember from previous posts, alignment of the assembly is critical. I have always used the old standby of drilled block and pin, but am getting to old to bend down for that adjustment. When I built the last bench for my buddy, he had bought the criss- cross hardware. Besides the added work of morticing the hardware into the chop and leg, the install is easy and it works great. I highly recommend looking in to this alternative.


----------



## Lazyman

Thanks Paul, I am definitely planning to add an X-Link to the order. I thought about getting an Ancora Yacht Service chain vise instead but I think that I will stick with the criss-cross design.


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## theoldfart

Can't praise the cross cross enough. Always parallel, never have to think about it.


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## EarlS

Nathan - I went with Benchcrafted over Horvarter, mostly because it is a local (IA) company. At the rate I'm going on my bench build you will probably finish before I do. Paul will definitely beat me to the finish line if he keep up this pace.


----------



## HokieKen

I love my Hovarter leg vise. Like LOVE. A little unnaturally probably. I just use a pegged parallel guide and haven't had any issues. I have the criss-cross but haven't retrofitted it yet. I got it for Christmas last year if that tells you what kind of year it's been for shop time…


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## CL810

I'm a criss-cross fan as well. Nothing to ever think about or bend over for.


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## Lazyman

> I m a criss-cross fan as well. *Nothing to ever think about or bend over for.*
> 
> - CL810


LOL. I am at the point that when I bend down to tie my shoes I look for something else to do while am down there so I don't waste a trip.


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## Lazyman

Dang. I guess I have to decide whether I am going to build a Moravian or Roubo style before I order since the crisscross has to be smaller for the Moravian. Benchcrafted sells a smaller one now. I guess I also need to double check whether there is room for the Hovarter wagon vise on the Moravian design. Looks like the angled legs will at least make it less convenient to clamp pieces in it vertically.


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## EarlS

What advantage does the Moravian design have over the Roubo style?

You know - Benchcrafted can make the bench AND deliver it to you, then set it up, white glove treatment. ;+P


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Another one for Hovarter. Have two leg vice hardware kits on mine. One I turned into a traditional tail vise. I dig the quick release aspect of these, that's the point of them for sure.

I do have the crisscross hardware on my leg vise.

I use both vises constantly but find the traditional tail vise gets a bit more use oddly enough.


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## CL810

I'm never sure what a tail vise is anymore. Is it a wagon vise or a face vise placed on the end of the bench?

If it's a wagon vise I can sure understand it getting more use Dave. I wish I had gone that route instead of my face vise on the end of my bench. Very rare that it gets used.


----------



## KentInOttawa

> I m never sure what a tail vise is anymore. Is it a wagon vise or a face vise placed on the end of the bench?
> 
> If it s a wagon vise I can sure understand it getting more use Dave. I wish I had gone that route instead of my face vise on the end of my bench. Very rare that it gets used.
> 
> - CL810


I have a quick-release face vise mounted on the end of my bench and a first-generation (type1?) Hovarter for a face vise. I like both, but the vise on the end of the beach gets the most use here.










There are still many times when I would like to have a wagon vise.

You can never have enough vices - er - um - vises.


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## KelleyCrafts

> I m never sure what a tail vise is anymore. Is it a wagon vise or a face vise placed on the end of the bench?
> 
> If it s a wagon vise I can sure understand it getting more use Dave. I wish I had gone that route instead of my face vise on the end of my bench. Very rare that it gets used.
> 
> - CL810


Clayton, mine is the traditional type. Gets a ton of use. It's nice to have the forward facing opening and then the parallel opening on the leg vise. Super handy to have both. Don't regret my bench build choices at all.


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## CL810

Busy bench Kent. My wife would tell you I have all the vices I need!

I used the heck out of of vise like yours at Marc Adams School of Woodworking. Loved it. Why oh why didn't I…...


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## Lazyman

Every time I see your bench, Dave, I drool. I am planning to go with SYP-partly because of cost and partly because being my first bench build I will hurt less if I am not happy with it and have to someday build another. I have considered that type tail vise, but I was a little concerned about eventual sagging so I think that I will go with a wagon vise instead.

Earl, the main benefit of the Moravian design is portability, but mostly I just think it is sexy to look at. 

Kent, I bought a similar face vice to yours I was planning to put on the end of my existing work table (I hesitate to call it a bench in this group), but I found a vintage Columbian quick release woodworking vise at a flea market at a good price and in perfect working order and decided to go with that instead. Still debating whether to put one or both of those on the new bench. There are 4 sides and corners after all.

*So next question* for you guys. Sliding deadman-do you use it?


----------



## theoldfart

Use it a lot. I have two Stanley 203s for support and clamping. Also use holdfasts for big stuff:


----------



## CL810

What Kevin said.

Get the 203's. I've seen two styles. One has more severe grooves in the pads that leave impressions. The other style has smoother pads which I haven't had a problem with.


----------



## Foghorn

I have a Veritas twin screw on the end of my bench that acts as a tail vise and more. A Veritas Tucker vise on the front. I've never wanted more. Lots of ways to skin a cat!


----------



## HokieKen

I left provision to add a deadman to my bench but haven't ever added one. I get by without it fine. But if it was there, I would have used it too. The main reason I left off to see if I really needed it was to leave easier access to the shelf under my bench.

I have my hovarter leg vise and an end vise like Kent's (appears to even be the same hardware). I'm not tickled with my end vise. If I were doing it over I'd either go with a twin screw vise (probably the hovarter version) or a wagon vise.


----------



## theoldfart

Tail vise on mine is a QR Sheldon.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

I love that tail vise old fart. If I didn't do the traditional tail vise I was going to lay out cash for the Sheldon.

Nathan, I milled steel to be the runner for my tail vise so it's not going to ever sag I don't think. Not in my or my kids lifetimes that is. Would be surprised if it ever did, besides, when I die I imagine the wife will use it as a TV stand or something so it won't matter.


----------



## Hammerthumb

So I got the legs and stretchers M/T and will work on the bed bolts tomorrow.








I need to do the short stretchers early tomorrow morning, but will start with cutting the tenons at the top of the legs first. They will be 2.5"x2.5" at a height of 1.5".

The top is glued and flattened. I jointed every individual piece and cut them on the table saw to 4.75". I'm glad I did this as it made assembly with very lippage easy. I glued 2 sections together for a total of just under 19" and re-ran it through the planer. I've never ran a piece that larger through before, but the Powermatic didn't even flinch. I had one more section to plane and run through the jointer, and then completed the glue up. About 10 minutes with a hand plane had it all flat and ready for leg mortises.
I hope to have the bench assembled tomorrow with the exception of the cross-cross hardware. I'll probably move it over to my shop to complete ie. cleats for the base shelf, dog holes, and other vise hardware.


----------



## theoldfart

Paul, looking good so far.

Dave, I saw a blog article by Meghan Fitzpatrick and she was installing a Sheldon. By some stroke of luck one showed up on CL a few days later for $35 so I grabbed it!


----------



## Lazyman

I finally ordered the Hovarter vises last night. I guess I need to start acquiring the wood. I am going to try to find some #1 SYP at one of the better lumber yards.


----------



## bandit571

Hmmm…maybe someday…but for now..









will just have to do…


----------



## EarlS

Bandit - how's therapy going? Hope you're well on the way back into the shop.

I hope my bench sees 1/10th as many projects go across it as yours has.


----------



## Sylvain

> I guess I also need to double check whether there is room for the Hovarter wagon vise on the Moravian design. Looks like the angled legs will at least make it less convenient to clamp pieces in it vertically.
> - Lazyman


- It is not mandatory to have the same cantilevers on left and right.
- I thought the wagon vise main use was to move a workbench dog to clamp pieces again another workbench dog. Clamping pieces vertically would be limited to narrow pieces. Otherwise KeyleyCrafts end vise seems more appropriate.



> What advantage does the Moravian design have over the Roubo style?
> - EarlS


It can be knocked up or down in less then a minute.



> I have my hovarter leg vise and an end vise like Kent's (appears to even be the same hardware).
> - HokieKen


The hardware works on the same principle (the same as used in the moving head of a pipe clamp + something) but it is mirrored like right and left threaded screws. For the front vise it has to pull, for the wagon vise, it has to push.

Will Myers makes batches of his wagon vise from time to time. But it is strictly to move a workbench dog:
https://eclecticmechanicals.com/2019/01/19/moravian-workbench-tail-vise/


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

> What Kevin said.
> 
> Get the 203's. I've seen two styles. One has more severe grooves in the pads that leave impressions. The other style has smoother pads which I haven't had a problem with.
> 
> - CL810


Leather and a bit of contact cement takes care of that problem… love my #203s.

And love the sliding deadman. If it gets in the way, lifting it out is dope-slap easy.


----------



## theoldfart

Well duh! I did not think to put leather on the 203 pads(administering a self inflicted dope-slap)

Thanks Smitty, though my self esteem is a bit bruised now.


----------



## Mosquito

I have to get my 203s in to service… Which probably means a deadman needs to be created first lol


----------



## theoldfart

Yup, that would be a good first step!


----------



## Hammerthumb

So I didn't post anything yesterday as I had a minor malfunction. I was making the bed bolts out of 1" steel drill rod. I had to run to the hardware store for a new 5/16" bit as the one I had was dull and didn't want to cut. After I finished the drill holes I got one hole tapped, but on the second one the tap snapped. I've had this tap and die set for 25 years and have never had a problem with them. I was telling my buddy that I should have used brass rod. He pulls out a 12" length of 1-1/4" brass rod and says "something like this?"
Well I spent most of the day drilling and tapping the brass rod and cutting into bed bolts. I have to say that I've spent 8-10 hours on this task just to make the bench knock down style. Maybe I should have just made the bench base as a single piece and saved the time. So here is the base assembled.
















And here is with the top dry fit on top of the legs tenons (cut yesterday)
















I also had time to get some of the leg vise hardware installed.
















Of course the vise is missing the chop and criss-cross (on order). I had another issue that cost me some time. When I was laying out the stretchers I noticed an anomaly in the dimensions of one of the MT joints, but knew it was minor and would not effect anything. That happened to be on the vise leg. While drilling out the hole for the acme rod I again noticed a dimension anomaly. The one leg I forgot to joint just happened to be the vise leg and it's out of square. It's not a big deal, but did cost me some time realigning the through hole for the acme rod. All is good now.


----------



## Lazyman

Dang it! Now I need a deadman AND a couple of 203s. Might have to 3D print one until I can find them. ;-)


----------



## Hammerthumb

Nathan - I've never used the 203's as I have never owned one, but I find a deadman essential. I usually use a turned dowel and sometimes reinforce it with a holdfast. I have made the front stretcher of my bench to accept a deadman. That is another item not complete on my bench is the groove in the bottom of the top for the deadman.


----------



## Lazyman

I need to remember to cut that groove before I attach the top to the base.


----------



## rad457

What pray tell is this mythical 203 you all talkin about?


----------



## theoldfart

Andre, they're a clamp. They fit into a hole in a deadman.


----------



## rad457

Looks a little complicated, I just use my holdfasts


----------



## CL810

I believe Paul holds the record for fastest bench build!!


----------



## bandit571

Mine took a sunny Sunday afternoon…about 7 years ago….


----------



## EarlS

> I believe Paul holds the record for fastest bench build!!
> 
> - CL810


Meanwhile, I'm working on the slowest build. Haven't done anything related to the bench for a couple months now. Both the front and back sections of the top have slight twists and I'm considering how to best deal with them.


----------



## HokieKen

I only spent like 10 months on my bench…


----------



## Hammerthumb

So I had to take a break on the bench as I had to go back to work. Im hoping to take a few more days of vacation maybe the end of this week or beginning of next. I received notification that the criss-cross shipped. Hope it arrives soon..


----------



## Hammerthumb

So I got the leg tenons morticed into the top. I also fabricated a chop and attached the acme bearing. What's left is the groove for the deadman, fabricating the deadman, holes for holdfasts, and the criss cross which arrives tomorrow. I'll also pick up the end vice next week.


----------



## EarlS

Paul - I'm curious what the black spot that is under the left front leg. Are the leg bottoms just beveled or did you also put a slider pad under them?


----------



## HokieKen

My guess is it's a shim Earl. My shop floor is far from flat so I have to shim a leg or two on my bench as well to keep it on solid footing.


----------



## HokieKen

Bench looks fantastic Paul!


----------



## Hammerthumb

Ken is correct. It's a 1/4" shim. Concrete is uneven. The legs do have a bevel to prevent splintering.
Thanks for the comments guys!


----------



## Notw

I really like the wheel you are using


----------



## Hammerthumb

Got the crisscross hardware today.









No instructions and I've only done one of these with the whole kit (acme rod, bearings, wheel, crisscross hardware, etc) about 3 years ago. Downloaded instructions. It said not to mount acme or nut and bearings until I've installed crisscross hardware. This will be interesting as I can't remember how I installed the full kit. I think I've got a handle on it though. I don't think I'll have any problems. I'll start work on it this week.


----------



## EarlS

As I recall, there are several decent youtube videos and Benchcrafted has stuff on their site. I haven't put mine together yet, but I thought the directions said the reason for not mounting the other parts had more to do with making sure the chop wasn't too high or too low.


----------



## rad457

> As I recall, there are several decent youtube videos and Benchcrafted has stuff on their site. I haven t put mine together yet, but I thought the directions said the reason for not mounting the other parts had more to do with making sure the chop wasn t too high or too low.
> 
> - EarlS


Real Men don't need no dang Instructions


----------



## Foghorn

> As I recall, there are several decent youtube videos and Benchcrafted has stuff on their site. I haven t put mine together yet, but I thought the directions said the reason for not mounting the other parts had more to do with making sure the chop wasn t too high or too low.
> 
> - EarlS
> 
> Real Men don t need no dang Instructions
> 
> - Andre


Bahaha! It's why when real men put together a simple piece of Ikea furniture, they either have to live with how it turned out or completely disassemble it and put it back together again!


----------



## theoldfart

The only tough part on the crisscross solo install is drilling the pin hole straight.


----------



## TxSurveyor

Pretty sure you can download the instructions from their website.


----------



## Hammerthumb

So I'm going to install the crisscross tomorrow. I'll let everyone know how it goes.

I was wondering if anyone has any experience with the Veritas Twin Screw vise? Im thinking of one for the other end of the bench. Any concerns mounting to a 5" thick top?


----------



## Lazyman

Happy Birthday to Me!

















There is a crisscross under the packing paper. I decided to splurge and order the drill bit and guide Hovarter sells to make drilling the hole for the crisscross a little easier. Now I just gotta get the wood so I can get started.

Great customer service from Hovarter, BTW. I sent him an email asking him to add some of the grease they recommend to the order because I forgot to add it to the cart before checkout. He threw it in the box for free. It is just a couple of bucks but still.


----------



## Hammerthumb

Well I got the crisscross installed. Careful measurements as I had already installed the screw, nut and bearing. After assembly, it's smoother than the last bench I built using Benchcrafted screw, wheel, nut, bearing, and crisscross.
The screw on mine is 1-1/4" acme. I thought it would add drag and not spin as freely as the complete Benchcrated kit. I can spin the wheel on this one and close up 3"+.

























So I didn't get any responses on the Veritas twin screw vise. Nobody using one??


----------



## theoldfart

Good job on the install Paul.


----------



## CL810

Looks good Paul. Regarding the Veritas twin screw vise I can only remember that coming up in this thread once or twice. There's a way to do a google search specific to a thread but I am not wise in the ways of google searches.


----------



## revrok

James at Wood by Wright is a big fan of the Veritas Twin Screw. He has an install video, etc… on his YouTube channel bench build. He uses it more than his leg vises. I would probably look at Andrew Klein's Twin Turbo vise if I were building new at this point. It is literally a two-speed fast action gear-driven twin screw end vise. Insanely nice.


----------



## rad457

Have one on my wish list at L.V. When I built my bench went with their cheaper Quick release front vise. have always sorta regretted it, works fine except for those times when the racking happens? Maybe next bench?


----------



## HokieKen

I think a twin screw would be my ideal end vise. Or a wagon vise. I can never definitively make up my mind. But, having both would be spectacular 

I don't have the Veritas but I know at least one LJ, Dave Polaschek, does if you want to message him for his thoughts.

And I hate to sound like a broken record but if I were adding a twin screw, I'd consider the Hovarter version. It's just two of the quick-action, quarter-turn mechanisms but with a link bar between them to operate them in tandem via a single handle. The two mechanisms can be uncoupled to operate independently as well for times when you want the chop to rack for clamping irregular shapes. That said though, the Veritas version appears to be just as good functionally with the exception of the quick-release action and comes in at a more attractive price point.


----------



## Foghorn

> So I'm going to install the crisscross tomorrow. I'll let everyone know how it goes.
> 
> I was wondering if anyone has any experience with the Veritas Twin Screw vise? Im thinking of one for the other end of the bench. Any concerns mounting to a 5" thick top?
> 
> - Hammerthumb


I have a twin screw vise on my 3" thick bench. Works great. What is the length of the overhang on the end you'd want to put it on? If too short, you may have to drill holes through the legs to mount it. The screws project about 12" under my bench with 2" thick jaws on the vise. The screws on mine are 5 1/2" to center from the top of my bench in order to clear the batten on the underside of the bench if that makes sense. Let me know if you want pictures.


----------



## HokieKen

> Happy Birthday to Me!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is a crisscross under the packing paper. I decided to splurge and order the drill bit and guide Hovarter sells to make drilling the hole for the crisscross a little easier. Now I just gotta get the wood so I can get started.
> 
> Great customer service from Hovarter, BTW. I sent him an email asking him to add some of the grease they recommend to the order because I forgot to add it to the cart before checkout. He threw it in the box for free. It is just a couple of bucks but still.
> 
> - Lazyman


Congrats Nathan! You may still end up beating me to the X-link install. I got it for Christmas last year and it's still in the shrink wrap…

I will echo the sentiments about Len Hovarter. When I was contemplating buying one for my leg vise, I e-mailed him several questions about the mechanics and materials. The information he gave me was fast and complete. Then after I bought it, I found that the delrin bushing that is supplied wouldn't work for my installation because I was doing a retrofit so I e-mailed him about it and told him I had the ability to make my own but wasn't sure what the critical dimensions were. He supplied me the dimensions and tolerances I needed to make my own from brass and told me if it didn't work to let him know and he'd help me come up with a design that would. I have been very happy with the product and the customer service from Hovarter and recommend them every chance I get. That said, Benchcrafted and Veritas are also great products and North American made so I won't poo on either of those either ;-)

I will say that some of the hesitation folks have with Hovarter is that it's a fairly new design without a lot of long-term data. I've had my leg vise for 3 or 4 years now and haven't had the first issue with it. Recommended maintenance is to clean and paste wax the shaft annually and grease the cam as needed. So far I haven't done either since the initial install and it still works as good as when it was new


----------



## KelleyCrafts

I'm going to agree with Kenny's sentiment on the Hovarter. I actually find if I don't wax the leg vise shaft it work even better. I'm happy with both of mine. Extremely happy.


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## Sylvain

> [...]
> I actually find if I don't wax the leg vise shaft it work even better.
> 
> - KelleyCrafts


knowing that it grips the rod on a principle similar as the one used on the moving head of a pipe clamp (or a holdfast askew it its hole), there is a compromise between the quick action smoothness (as moving the head on a tube clamp) and the way it will grip on the rod when doing the quarter turn.


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## KelleyCrafts

> [...]
> I actually find if I don't wax the leg vise shaft it work even better.
> 
> - KelleyCrafts
> 
> knowing that it grips the rod on a principle similar as the one used on the moving head of a pipe clamp (or a holdfast askew it its hole), there is a compromise between the quick action smoothness (as moving the head on a tube clamp) and the way it will grip on the rod when doing the quarter turn.
> 
> - Sylvain


Agreed Sylvian, overall it slides smooth and isn't really needed anyway.


----------



## Hammerthumb

Thanks for the recommendations. I'll do a little research before purchase. For the time being, I completed the deadman, and it's ready for the transfer to my shop. By the way Foghorn, I have about 16" from end of bench to leg on the end vise end.








I still have some work to do on the bench, but it is now functional and will immediately start getting some use.

Some may wonder why I built this at another shop. After moving to Washington 3 years ago, and purchasing my new house last year, I have not had time to get my own shop set up. My buddy's shop has a lot of my equipment and tools, and a lot of room to work. And it's only about 1 minute from my shop.
Now it's time this winter to start getting my shop together. This was the first step.


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## Foghorn

Looking great. Plenty of room for a Veritas twin screw vise or any other brand I would suspect.


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## MikeJ70

Finally started my Roubo bench build. I bought just over 160 bdft of 8/4 maple spring of '20 as well as Benchcrafted traditional leg vise and tail vise hardware. I had good intentions of building it last year, but just could not dedicate the time. I just finished up a shop remodel which included a unit heater and insulation so I am really looking forward to spending time out there this winter. I am starting with the base and so far I have all of the parts cut to rough size and the legs and front stretcher laminated.

Still debating on if I want to go with a split top or a solid one. I'd like to hear comments from those of you that built split tops on how you like it and if you think there is value to it, or would you build solid if you had to do over? The biggest advantage I can think of is assembly would be easier with the top in two pieces.

Here are a few pics:

Edit: I tried posting pics right from my phone, but they were sideways and upside down. I'll have to get them on my computer so I can edit them to be the correct orientation.


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## KelleyCrafts

Hey Mike, I had that same debate and was still debating it up until the moment I was gluing up the top. I even was bugging a good friend of mine with texts over it the night before.

The ONLY reason I wanted a split too was to make flattening/milling easier. Not for the gap. I don't care about the gap, way to many ways to clamp or hold things to need the gap for that and tool handles sticking out of the center are just in the way.

I went with a solid top and am super happy I did. Pics in my projects section if you're interested.


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## Sylvain

> I am starting with the base and so far I have all of the parts cut to rough size and the legs and front stretcher laminated.
> 
> Still debating on if I want to go with a split top or a solid one.
> - MikeJ70


You have to know if you will need upper rails on left and right before finishing the base.


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## EarlS

Mike - I'm going with a solid top. However, the top is still in a couple of pieces since I need to work out the twists in both sections. I made sure to limit the width of each section to 13" wide so I could run them thru the planer. One of the last steps of the top build will be gluing the front and back sections together. I'm mostly using the Benchcrafted roubo plans to keep me on track.


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## HokieKen

I went with sort of a hybrid top. It's basically a split top but, I didn't want top stretchers and I did want both sections to be coplanar. So I made two pieces then glued blocks in between to join the two. 









Most of the time, I have pieces of plywood in the bottom of the gaps so they act as tool wells. But if I have something large I need the whole top for, I can remove the tools and if I need to clamp through the gaps (which I have only once and could have found a workaround if I needed to) I can lift the plywood out.

So it's more of a solid top with two small tool wells I suppose. It did allow me the flexibility to run the two big sections through the planer before the final glue up. But, fair warning, something that big and heavy through a lunchbox planer is pushing the limits. I may as well have just went with hand planes start to finish….

I'm still happy with my tool wells. I wasn't sure if they would be crap collectors or useful. They are both. But, it's rare that I use the full width of the top anyway so it's worked out fine for me. YMMV of course.

If you do decide to go with a split top and have the top stretchers, plan your tail vise install ahead of time to make sure there's no interference.


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## MikeJ70

Thanks for the replies guys. All good things to consider.



> The ONLY reason I wanted a split too was to make flattening/milling easier. Not for the gap. I don't care about the gap, way to many ways to clamp or hold things to need the gap for that and tool handles sticking out of the center are just in the way.


Yep, all the same things I am thinking about. I do have access to a wide belt sander so if I need too, I can bring it there to flatten. I thought the gap stop was cool when I first saw it, but that has worn off. For now, it will be pushed up against a wall so I will have all of my tools hanging there at the ready. If I ever get a shop big enough to where I can access all 4 sides, then I will add a tool holder off of the back. That seems more practical.



> You have to know if you will need upper rails on left and right before finishing the base.
> 
> - Sylvain


I have seen solid top Roubos that have the upper side rails. If I go with a solid top and eliminate the upper rails, does that eliminate the need to account for wood movement in the top?



> I m mostly using the Benchcrafted roubo plans to keep me on track.
> 
> - EarlS


Same here.



> If you do decide to go with a split top and have the top stretchers, plan your tail vise install ahead of time to make sure there s no interference.
> 
> - HokieKen


I'm using the Benchcrafted plans so that takes into account the proper overhang. I have debated about shortening it up to 6', so I reached out to Benchcrafted on the best way to do that and they got back to me with several options. I think I'm going to keep it at the 87" the plans call for because we do have plans to add on to our garage someday.


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## Lazyman

I am in lumber acquisition mode for my bench build. I have drawn up a plan based upon Chris Schwatz's Anarchist workbench but only 6' long. I am still trying to decide if I want the thickness of the top to be 4 or closer to 5 inches and I've decided on a solid top for mine. I decided that I don't what a place for things to drop through the top. Dog holes are bad enough for that. Having a gap down the entire length would probably make me fill the gap anyway after hunting down below for one more lost screw. I don't really want a tool tray. I slowing moving my tools to a tool wall that puts them pretty close at hand to help keep them from accumulating on the bench.

I am having a heck of a time finding some #1 SYP. I've been sorting through the stack of #2 2×12 and 2×10 at the HD and Lowes near me without much success finding some usable stuff. The way the they store their wood on racks makes it a PITA to sort through. More than once I have dug out a piece that I thought looked pretty nice only to turn it over and have the nastiest looking knot you'll ever see on a board in a place that makes half the board unusable for the top (I am planning to rip them in half). I finally found a local wholesale supplier with some #1 in stock but they won't sell to me directly and told me to go to the pro desk at Lowes to order some. We will see if the special order price turns out to be any cheaper than just using hardwood. There are a couple of small mills in the area that specialize in local hardwood slabs but their prices are a little crazy and milling the slabs down to a usable size and then waiting for it to stop moving as it dries or acclimates is not really something I want to deal with if I don't have to . They are charging almost as much per board foot for a live edge slab as milled lumber and the waste would be pretty huge.


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## MikeJ70

Nathan,

Just for reference, I paid around $4.50 a bdft a year and a half ago (not sure what his prices are today) for 8/4 Hard Maple so I have about $750 into just the lumber. I still need to get some 12/4 for the leg vise chop and end caps. Not sure if I am going to go with Maple or a darker hardwood like Walnut or Cherry, but that is going to add another $150 - 200 to the cost. Good luck in your search, I really dread it when I have to go to the big box and pick through their piles. Make sure you sticker each layer when storing it or you will likely end up with a bunch of unusable boards.


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## HokieKen

> ...
> 
> I have seen solid top Roubos that have the upper side rails. If I go with a solid top and eliminate the upper rails, does that eliminate the need to account for wood movement in the top?
> 
> ...
> 
> - MikeJ70


What kind of joinery will you use in the base? On my bench, I used pinned M&T joints between the legs and stretchers and then attached the top with M&T joints pinned on the two front legs but not the rear. The pinned M&T joints allow enough racking of the legs to accommodate any expansion or contraction in the top. So far, so good. If you put any glue in the joints though, you make the base more rigid and less able to flex a bit as needed. If you add top stretchers, and pin or glue those, same issue. Of course with a split top, you don't have to give expansion much consideration since the pieces can move independently without stressing the base.


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## EarlS

I managed to find walnut, cherry, and white oak on the local Craigslist so wood costs weren't too bad. Of course, the less expensive wood means more work to get it into shape which is why I have the twist in both top sections. Legs are cherry, stretchers and rails are walnut, as the tool cabinet will also be, and the top is 4" x 1.5" white oak.


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## MikeJ70

> What kind of joinery will you use in the base? On my bench, I used pinned M&T joints between the legs and stretchers and then attached the top with M&T joints pinned on the two front legs but not the rear. The pinned M&T joints allow enough racking of the legs to accommodate any expansion or contraction in the top. So far, so good. If you put any glue in the joints though, you make the base more rigid and less able to flex a bit as needed. If you add top stretchers, and pin or glue those, same issue. Of course with a split top, you don t have to give expansion much consideration since the pieces can move independently without stressing the base.
> 
> - HokieKen


The side rail to leg joinery will be pinned M&T. The front and back stretchers will be knock down so by doing that it wouldn't make sense to pin the top to the legs. Yeah, I was thinking by not using a top side rail that the legs would have enough give to allow any wood movement in the top. I might still add a little slop to the back mortise just in case. I was thinking I had to glue the pinned M&T, but now you have given me something else to think about. For the Benchcrafted plans using the split top, they have you drill an elongated hole in the top rail and then use a lag screw to fasten the top along with a tight fitting M&T on the top of the leg to the bottom of the top.


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## HokieKen

Any of those should work fine Mike. For a solid top, pinning the lower stretchers instead of gluing should be all you need to accommodate movement in the top. A little slop in the mortise on top of the legs won't hurt anything but I decided it wasn't necessary. My M&T joints generally end up with a little slop whether I do it on purpose or not though…


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## Lazyman

It seems like if the Moravian bench (by all accounts) is nice and solid when it is just held in place by resting on some dowels on the tops of the legs that even an unpinned M&T would be pretty solid too. I think that they do usually allow for some lateral movement by enlarging 2 of the holes. I plan to use a draw bore M&T but I may experiments with having it just resting on the M&T. Also, without the upper rail, theoretically the legs may flex slightly to handle a little movement.

I put in my order for 12 2×12" x 10' #1 SYP at lowes. They said it could take up to 2 weeks because it will arrive when they receive their next shipment from their lumber supplier. The price of the 10' #1s was the same as the 12' #2 "stuff" that Lowes has in stock-just under $20 per board which comes out to $1/nbdft for the #1 10 footers compared to about $0.83/nbdft for the 12' #2s. I am a little nervous about not being able select my own but as long as they are better than the stuff they carry in stock it should be worth the difference. The Pro Desk clerk did say that if you show up at 6:30 am after they have received a new shipment, you can sometimes find the good stuff in the #2 stacks before the contractors get them all.


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## Hammerthumb

As far as wood movement of the top, all the benches I have made (except for one trestle style) have had the leg tenons mortised into the top with the front tenons semi-tight (enough for an easy fit), and the rear tenons with the mortise enlarged front and back by 1/4" each way to allow for movement. This makes dropping the top onto the base pretty simple and trouble free, and the wood is free to expand and contract seasonally. 









After I get the top set, I figure out any flatness issue of the bottom of the top, to get the top to sit flush against the tenon shoulders. At this time I can rock the top on this bench about 1/4" from front left to rear right. A little hand planing on the tops bottom corners of about 1/8" each corner will let the top seat flush. Then it's matter of seating the top and hand planing the top of the top flat. I'll get to that this coming weekend. I see no reason to attach the top to the base with anything except for gravity.

As far as the stretchers, I like having the front to back stretcher just below the vise screw, and usually glue and drawbore these with a couple of dowels. If I had used a harder wood for the base, I would have done that on this bench, but just used glue. In retrospect, I could have moved the side stretchers up a couple inches, but it really doesn't matter. I don't like these stretchers near the top as it can cause interference with end vise mounting and is not structurally as strong when the bench is disassembled for transport (upsidedown U configuration vs H).









As far as the front stretchers, I have used drawbored tenons on some benches, and home made bed bolts on others. Both hold well. I didn't realize that Benchcrafted sold these parts and would have bought theirs if I had known. This would have save me about 10hrs of fabrication time. The bed bolts still require mortise and tenon joints and could have just as easily been glued, or drawbored and dowelled, but I wanted to make this bench knockdown for easy transport. You can see the bed bolt at the back side of this stretcher, and the holes for the 3/8"x 7" long bolt at the side of the legs in the next picture.

















There is a lot of ways to build a bench. I don't make benches the right way, or the wrong way, just my way. Just make it strong and stout.


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## Hammerthumb

Sorry Nathan but I didn't see your post before my last. SYP would be a good choice for a bench. Better than my WRC, but mine was free.
As far as the #1 vs #2, spend the extra money. You will have less and smaller knots to deal with, and #2 may have loose knots. It will make a beautiful bench.


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## CL810

So much good info in your bench build Paul but I think what you said last is the best. I like how you think!

I also think SYP makes for a great bench. I used it for my first bench and was going to use it for my second but I fell into a great deal on some hard maple. I don't think it makes enough difference from a practical basis. My hard maple bench has plenty of dents and bruises as well.



> There is a lot of ways to build a bench. I don't make benches the right way, or the wrong way, just my way. Just make it strong and stout.
> 
> - Hammerthumb


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## Hammerthumb

Thanks Andy. The bench I left in Las Vegas was hard maple, but I've realized that almost any kind of wood can be made into a bench. This bench was free wood. That may be the best kind.


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## MikeJ70

My next question is what's the best way to get just the right amount of glue on when gluing up the top? For the legs I used an 1/8th notched adhesive spreader. For the first leg, I applied glue to both surfaces and ended up with way too much squeeze out so clean up was a PITA. For the other three I applied just to one side paying closer attention to the amount that was going on and then when I had nice even coverage I placed the second board on top and rubbed back and forth to get even distribution. That definitely worked better, but I still had more squeeze out than I would like. I'm thinking a foam roller and rolling both faces should give me a nice thin layer and ensure even coverage with minimal squeeze out. Curious what you guys do or have done that has worked well?


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## bandit571

Well…what do you know….underneath all that stuff….









There is indeed a workbench….does this mean I have to get back to work?


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## HokieKen

I wouldn't worry about excess squeeze-out on a bench top. Too much is better than too little in this application. And you're most likely going to be planing it down after glue up anyway so scraping the excess off shouldn't present any issues. If I'm concerned when I glue up furniture or other projects where I want to minimize squeeze out though, I just brush a thin layer on both faces, press them together, pull them apart, wipe off excess from adjacent faces then clamp them up.


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## drsurfrat

There is a good reason to have some squeeze out. With yellow glues, there is shrinkage and the extra feeds the joint after things start to dry. Doesn't need a lot, though, so a roller or the serrated spreader would be good. My index finger is highly calibrated.

The site is down, but Titebond has a good FAQ page about their glues. Eventually try www.titebond.com/resources…


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## MikeB_UK

Unfortunately, the best way to get the right amount of glue is practice.

On the plus side, like Kenny said, it's a bench, if you get it wrong you either have a bit of extra cleanup or it may split apart in 30 years or so. No big worry eather way, the finish doesn't need to be perfect.


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## Lazyman

In his book the Anarchist's Workbench, Chris Schwartz says that he uses a cheap foam roller and puts it only on one surface but he has says too much is better than too little. You definitely want squeeze.


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## KentInOttawa

I *try *to apply the right amount to both sides, and I spread it out using whatever homemade spreader is an appropriate size for the task. The act of spreading with a smooth spreader allows me to remove any excess before assembly. I usually get a little squeeze-out anyway, but I just rationalize that as an indication of having enough applied glue.


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## Sylvain

gluing the top.
keep it simple.
Look here from about 11':


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## CaptainKlutz

Glue applicator for laminating the top?

Low AZ humidity forces a relatively fast glue applicator on large areas, or it skins over and creates gaps in bond line. Can be a nightmare as you often do not have time to squirt on glue and then spread it out.
So I use glue bottle with roller. The generic versions cost ~$10-12 at various retailers.

Was worried about cleanup, and it has never been a problem. For short break in action, there is plug to seal bottle. For longer breaks, unscrew head, screw on regular cap, and drop roller head in small bowl of water between uses. PVA glue doesn't stick well to bottle parts, and it cleans up in warm water; even if all gummed up.

Can use roller bottle to apply thin film on both surfaces, or heavy coat on single surface if you prefer. Using the roller to apply the glue is much faster than squirt and smear with brayer or printers roller too.

Another trick for large areas is using a slower set PVA. Titebond sells Extend type I & II glues, which offer longer open time. I use Titebond Extend II often in my hot/dry shop

YMMV


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## Lazyman

Doesn't the glue dry on the roller in between boards? Its seems like flakes of semi-dried glue coming off onto the surface would be just as bad.


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## CaptainKlutz

> Doesn't the glue dry on the roller in between boards? Its seems like flakes of semi-dried glue coming off onto the surface would be just as bad.
> 
> - Lazyman


 What wait time? There is no waiting if your glue up is staged properly.

When I mentioned challenges with low humidity in AZ and glue drying fast I was not joking. There is no goofing off when the glue bottle is opened.

I always stack up boards, and dry run my Clamps and Cuals first. Open clamps slightly, lay two boards open for glue, and get ready to start.  
When it is finally time to add glue; I roll glue on both sides, stack boards, and repeat until done. Does not matter if bench top, cutting boards, table top, or door panels; use the same process.

Have enough space/clamps to make four regular cabient door panels, or two ~7ft long lamination's at one time. Since my shop is mobile and assembled on demand, use plastic folding tables for glue ups. The glue pops off easily when dry, and even easier with coat of wax on table. Set the glue tables up, dry fit clamps, then walk down the line gluing one stack/panel right after the next. The roller does not dry in few minutes it takes to align/tighten clamps, even when making several panels.

Only while waiting the normal 60-120 minutes for glue to harden enough for scraping, will I put the roller head in plastic bin of water. If I use one, am also tossing my silicone glue brushes in same water filled container. Placed a bag over the roller head, secured with rubber band for short wait; before I found way to keep a glue wash tub in the shop.

YMMV


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## Lazyman

My question is: if the glue can skin over between spreading and placing the the boards together, does the thin layer of glue on roller start to skin over too? I've had that happen before and we don't have near the dry heat that you do in AZ. It didn't happen every time but is why I only used a plastic roller for glue application couple of times. I had to clean the glue off the roller between boards and there were sometimes already some semi-dried pieces of glue that came off with the wet towel when I did.


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## controlfreak

I like those disposable mini rollers with the mini tray included for larger glue ups.


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## EarlS

Whew - I'm glad I don't have problems with glue drying out that fast here in IA.

When I glued up the bench top, I squirted the glue on the boards, grabbed a piece of shim to smear it around, then stuck the boards together. Quick and easy. The initial glue-up was 2 boards, then add a 3rd board to each stack the next day. Then glue the stacks together. I had plenty of time to make sure the boards lined up when I was tightening the clamps. There were a couple times I had to go back and reset the boards, or clamp the top/bottom to pull the boards into alignment.


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## bigblockyeti

> When I mentioned challenges with low humidity in AZ and glue drying fast I was not joking. There is no goofing off when the glue bottle is opened.
> 
> - CaptainKlutz


Here in SC you could shoot 18 during a glue up when the humidiy is in the upper 90's.


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## BurlyBob

I watched a guy on YouTube a few years ago. He kept foam brushes for the handle to use as a dowel. he also tore the foam off as there's a plastic insert and it makes an amazing glue spreader


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## CaptainKlutz

Glue Tray? Looool Not in my shop.

Key to the roller on a bottle - it constantly gets fresh glue added; so it does not skin over. 
If sump'n bad happens (like this klutz knocks clamp(s) on the floor) and roller sits too long; will either dip head in water and wipe it off any globs; or remove the head and clean it with the brush in my glue wash tub. I never give the head a chance to dry out completely.

MC of lumber enters into the glue challenge too. When lumber is below 5% MC, will keep board stack to 3-4 boards, or wipe a damp rag on 1st couple of joints to give more open time. Normally can stack up to 6 boards into a panel/lamination at each glue up using a roller bottle.


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## MikeJ70

> I watched a guy on YouTube a few years ago. He kept foam brushes for the handle to use as a dowel. he also tore the foam off as there s a plastic insert and it makes an amazing glue spreader
> 
> - BurlyBob


That's a pretty good tip there BurlyBob, although I see it could turn into another item that I hoard just in case I need it later (we go through a lot of foam brushes). I don't think I would use it to glue up a 4" thick benchtop, but it would come in handy for smaller glue-ups.

I bought some small foam rollers so I am going to test that out and see if I like it better than the adhesive spreader. I am happy with the way the legs turned out, but if I can cut the squeeze out in half from what I was getting, I'll be a lot happier.


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## Bearcontrare

The Bernard Jones/ Roy Underhill /me hybrid workbench ready for the move next weekend. Vises have been detached, bench dogs stored in the holes and cross braces neatly stashed under the folding legs.
Some of you will notice the groove on the right hand side under the apron. That accomodates a sliding deadman which slips into it and slides along the floor.
Not that I'd want to do it frequently, but even at 61, I can still wrangle this bench to move it!!!


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## Bearcontrare

I built this folding/portable bench two years ago, knowing that it would have to be moved to our final home before the funeral home….. 8^)


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## CL810

Slick and smart!


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## Lazyman

My special order for #1 SYP at Lowes for my workbench build finally arrived and was mostly a bust. I ordered 12 2×12" x 10' #1 and they looked pretty terrible. Most were not #1 grade in my opinion. Huge knots with several that went to the edge of the board. Only 3 of the 12 were good. Their #2 normal stock looked better. Fortunately, the pro desk person agreed with me and gave me a discount on the 3 that I kept and the #2s that I culled from the stack. I got one of the Lowe's associates to help me dig and I found some pretty nice pieces. I still need a few more but I have officially started by ripping the 2×12's in half.


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## HokieKen

A hard-earned bit of advice Nathan…. If you're going to flatten with handplanes, glue them up so the grain is running the same direction on all the boards. It's a PITA when your planing with the grain on one board and against it on the adjacent board. Especially with soft wood like SYP.


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## KelleyCrafts

Excited for you Nathan! Definitely pay attention to grain orientation it's good even if you want to flatten it some other way. Kenny reminded me right before my glue up and I'm thankful for that.

Very cool man…..


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## Lazyman

Thanks. That is a great reminder on the grain direction. Now if I only remember it when I actually glue it up. I guess I need to make a check list and check it every time I work on the build. I will probably run it through my planer in sections but I am sure that it will need some flattening after all the the sections are glued together. I guess I need to finally make some winding sticks.


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## MikeB_UK

> Thanks. That is a great reminder on the grain direction. Now if I only remember it when I actually glue it up. I guess I need to make a check list and check it every time I work on the build. I will probably run it through my planer in sections but I am sure that it will need some flattening after all the the sections are glued together. I guess I need to finally make some winding sticks.
> 
> - Lazyman


Draw arrows in the direction you can plane easily, a lot easier than trying to work out grain direction during the glue up. If you are flattening sections before final glue up, redraw the arrows.


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## controlfreak

I was going to either make it one board thinner or do two sections a run each through the planner. I am glad I didn't because with that weight there was little chance I was going to get a smooth flow. I was then going to use a router sled. In the end I used a hand plane and wished I hadn't stressed over all the other options. If you don't have a ton of clamps you better start finding a black Friday deal on them.

Another tip, as you get closer to four inches thick holdfasts start having trouble getting a bite.


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## CL810

Nathan, after planing the sections you can minimize the amount of hand planing by using biscuits or dowels to line up the sections' tops to each other.


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## Lazyman

> I was going to either make it one board thinner or do two sections a run each through the planner. I am glad I didn t because with that weight there was little chance I was going to get a smooth flow. I was then going to use a router sled. In the end I used a hand plane and wished I hadn t stressed over all the other options. If you don t have a ton of clamps you better start finding a black Friday deal on them.
> 
> Another tip, as you get closer to four inches thick holdfasts start having trouble getting a bite.
> 
> - controlfreak


I was wondering if my Dewalt 735 could handle the weight a 5×12" x 6' slab. I figured it was marginal at best, though I did just install a Shelix head recently and it definitely strains less with wide boards than it did before. I expect to have to do the final work by hand anyway. I have a crappy unlabeled #5 plane that actually works fairly well that I have been thinking about converting into a scrub plane, if it turns out I have a lot of leveling to do. I would just have to make or find a new lever cap for it because it was ground down so much that it will probably chatter as a scrub. I suppose I could just borrow a cap from another plane.

I bought 20 something Bessy K clamps a few years go at a moving sale for $12 (tool gloat  each and I probably have about a dozen F clamps and a few pipe clamps as well so hopefully that'll do.

I am still debating about whether to spurge and get the Crucible hold downs which supposedly handle thick tops better or just keep it simple and cheap and get the Gramercy ones. I figure that I can always enlarge the holes on the bottom if the thickness prevents them from working. I am also thinking about a row of square dog holes for the wagon vise which I would cut before glue up to avoid all of the mortising by hand.

CL, biscuits are not a bad idea. I will have to think about that and see how deep my biscuit joiner can cut them so that they are aren't too close to the surface.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

If you have roller stands you can support that through your planer. Then final flatten when you join the two with a hand plane.

Put the biscuits on the bottom of the boards not the top then you won't be close to the surface. I would do it to every board personally. Then you'll keep more thickness overall if that's what you're aiming for, I was.


----------



## controlfreak

I used my $25 No. 5 and may not have had the best edge on it. Wasn't a scrub either but all I can say about it is I can tell you is sweat will not hurt your benchtop. It was the start of my spiral into hand tools. I vote no on adding biscuits because that too is a lot of work. I just took several pipe clamps and laid wax paper over the exposed pipe to prevent staining and let them set the evenness for one side. As long as you are close the planning is too bad. I ended up going on a 45 degree angle for most of my passes to avoid tear out.


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## HokieKen

A scrub is definitely unnecessary if you're running it through your planer before the final glue up.


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## CL810

Nathan, your 735 is up to the task. I ran mine through my 735 which was bolted to a shop made cabinet style stand. When feeding it in I would support the in feed side until it got close to the middle and then go to the out feed side and support it there. A buddy would work even better.

The critical thing of course, is the reference side being flat and square to the sides or you'll end up with trapezoid sections which are very hard to recover from. DAMHIK


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## Lazyman

I will likely give the 735 a try. The biggest problem may be setting up in spot that has 6' in front and back of it for infeed and outfeed. I'll probably have to move out to the driveway but it has a slope to contend with, plus I have to move my lathe out of the way to roll my planer's flip cart out there. I also have a power planer if I get something really out of whack that needs some major hogging before one reference side is flat. My current assembly table is nice and flat so hopefully, I can at least start with it relatively flat to begin with. I may make some bowclamp style cauls to help pull any errant boards into alignment.

Unfortunately no work on it yesterday. I got a covid booster on Thursday and just like the second shot, I felt like crap most of Thursday.


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## Sylvain

> The biggest problem may be setting up in spot that has 6 in front and back of it for infeed and outfeed. I ll probably have to move out to the driveway but it has a slope to contend with, plus I have to move my lathe out of the way to roll my planer s flip cart out there. [...] I may make some bowclamp style cauls to help pull any errant boards into alignment.
> - Lazyman


A lot of work you could avoid by just using a hand plane. (Or your power plane for the first pass).
And as I read:
"Hire the lazy man. He may not do as much work but that's because he will find a better way."



>


Before starting glue-up, I would shim the feet of the trestles to set them out of wind.


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## Lazyman

I will surely use my hand plane for the final work at least and if it is really bad, I will probably have to clean up one side before I make a pass through the planer. I am going to make some winding sticks soon. The glue up will most likely be done on my assembly/outfeed table as it is very flat. I used my handplanes to make 2 sets of bow cauls yesterday to help keep everything lined up during the glue up. The bow is probably not necessary just for alignment but should add a little extra pressure in the center. One pair is 25" long and the other is 36".










I am debating whether it is necessary to run each board through the planer so that the glue faces have a fresh surface. All except for one that warped after cutting in half (the other half stayed flat) they are all actually pretty flat. The warped one can easily be clamped flat.

I guess I should move my progress into a blog or at least another forum topic so that I don't clutter up the feed here.


----------



## KentInOttawa

> The biggest problem may be setting up in spot that has 6 in front and back of it for infeed and outfeed. I ll probably have to move out to the driveway but it has a slope to contend with, plus I have to move my lathe out of the way to roll my planer s flip cart out there. I also have a power planer if I get something really out of whack that needs some major hogging before one reference side is flat. My current assembly table is nice and flat so hopefully, I can at least start with it relatively flat to begin with. I may make some bowclamp style cauls to help pull any errant boards into alignment.
> 
> - Lazyman


Here's an approach that will shorten the length that you need. I've also seen a similar approach (on YouTube) where they modified a lunchbox planer by removing the bed and adding wheels to allow it to run along a set of rails. I can't seem to find that years-old video now :-(

Either method will work but each has its own drawbacks.


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## Lazyman

Now that is an innovative way to use a planer. I guess the question is whether my planer at ~90 lbs is heavier than a 12" section of the top.


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## Sylvain

> I am debating whether it is necessary to run each board through the planer so that the glue faces have a fresh surface. All except for one that warped after cutting in half (the other half stayed flat) they are all actually pretty flat. The warped one can easily be clamped flat.


If you look back at the video in my comment #570, you will see that Paul Sellers takes only a few shallow passes with a plane just to eliminate the ripples from the machining of the wood.




You will notice that he doesn't use much of a flat surface for his glue-up.

Contrary to what Paul Sellers does in his video, I recommend to start the clamping in the middle and then moving to clamp alternatively left and right of the middle. That way it is easier to prevent/correct twisting of the assembly before the glue sets.
For the math freak: "ruled surface" 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hyp-paraboloid-ip.svg


----------



## Lazyman

After looking at the faces of the boards, I decided they definitely needed a light pass so I took about 1/32 off each face. On one face it had a noticeable step from the mill that required a second pass. The Shelix I just added to my DW735 sure makes a nice finish.


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## Lazyman

Okay, to keep from cluttering this thread with what may be a prolonged build, I started to a blog about it.


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## Hammerthumb

Nathan - the idea of this thread is to watch the progress of a bench. You're not clogging the thread, but adding to it. I'll follow the blog, but hope you will still contribute to the workbench thread.

After building many benches, I found that jointing and planing all runs of wood on the bench before glue up will save a bunch of flattening after glue up. Make sure all pieces are jointed and planed with 90 degree corners, and are the same thickness (vertically- horizontal dimension is not critical) before glue up. Then final flattening the of top will take minutes instead of hours with a hand plane.


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## Lazyman

Thanks Paul. So far I think that by carefully selecting the boards, I wound up with some nice flat, straight pieces so running them through the planer yielded nice square corners-but I will double check them just to be sure.

When routing the dog strip with my CNC yesterday I did get some tear out that just occurred to me probably could have been avoided if I had left just enough on the top to square off by hand instead of having it complete the through cut. Probably not the last time that 20/20 hindsight will come in to play. Now I am thinking that maybe I will redo the dog strip with that in mind. I know that it will get dinged up with use but it will bother me if I don't at least start with it nice and clean. I need to resaw a piece to complete the dog strip anyway so I can salvage the "practice piece for that with minimal wasted wood. I guess the stuff does grow on trees after all so even it does get scrapped, it is not the end of the world.


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## controlfreak

Clog up the thread, well yeah, what did you think I came here for, to look at some stupid workbenches? Uh, never mind.

Post away Lazyman.


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## Lazyman

Thanks CF. I may use this forum for questions that don't come up in my blog posts. I figure I have a captive audience here. 

So here is a question for the group. Do any of you have any experience with the Millers Falls bench stop?









Or More importantly, the Lee Valley replica? (too bad they didn't paint it red). I have been thinking about a simple metal plate style, either purchased or DIY one, but this one is just cool to look at (at least). Just wondering how well it really works.


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## controlfreak

If I could only figure out where to put it I want to add one. I have a couple of dog holes that can't use a holdfast due to the leg vise so maybe that will work for me but I may be lazier than you so I will follow you to find the optimum location.


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## HokieKen

I have pondered the MF ones Nathan but so far haven't ever pulled the trigger. My interest is more because it's MF and less because I think I need it. So far I haven't had any problem just using a dog as a planing stop or two dogs for wider pieces. But, if I were to stumble across a Millers falls stop, I'd probably cut a home for it in the bench just because.


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## Foghorn

> I have pondered the MF ones Nathan but so far haven t ever pulled the trigger. My interest is more because it s MF and less because I think I need it. So far I haven t had any problem just using a dog as a planing stop or two dogs for wider pieces. But, if I were to stumble across a Millers falls stop, I d probably cut a home for it in the bench just because.
> 
> - HokieKen


I have an old Record bench stop that I am still pondering installing in my bench. Not my picture, but the same bench stop.


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## prazbotta

> I have pondered the MF ones Nathan but so far haven t ever pulled the trigger. My interest is more because it s MF and less because I think I need it….. But, if I were to stumble across a Millers falls stop, I d probably cut a home for it in the bench just because.
> 
> - HokieKen


Maybe?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/265418088027?hash=item3dcc269e5b:g:rOUAAOSwBXBhnCz~


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## HokieKen

Already on my watch list ;-)


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## Notw

> Already on my watch list ;-)
> 
> - HokieKen


 pretty sure your watch list is everything on eBay with Miller Falls in the title


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## controlfreak

Now I am going to feel guilty bidding on it. I searched this morning for "Bench Stop" and missed this.


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## Lazyman

On my watch list too but I probably won't bid on it. It is a little rough though it should be serviceable with some clean up and red paint and maybe refile the fine teeth a bit.

I wonder if the MF stop is just a friction fit? It sounds like the LV repro has a locking mechanism.


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## controlfreak

MF and Red paint, now Kenny's mouse finger is twitching.


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## HokieKen

> On my watch list too but I probably won t bid on it. It is a little rough though it should be serviceable with some clean up and red paint and maybe refile the fine teeth a bit.
> 
> I wonder if the MF stop is just a friction fit? It sounds like the LV repro has a locking mechanism.
> 
> - Lazyman


You loosen the screw slightly and it pops up on a spring. Turn it to the side you want, hold it at the height you want, and snug the screw back down and it stays put. I think the LV version works they same way other than it has a different mechanism down inside that locks it in at the chosen height.


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## HokieKen

And I'd be in for no more than $20 for that one on Ebay. So let me know if you do go after it so I don't run the price up on you ;-) Like I said, I don't particularly feel the need for one other than simply because it's Millers Falls. So I'll gladly stand down if you want it!


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## HokieKen

> Already on my watch list ;-)
> 
> - HokieKen
> 
> pretty sure your watch list is everything on eBay with Miller Falls in the title
> 
> - Notw


That's a saved search but you'd be surprised how few items make it to my watchlist these days ;-) There are 2 planes left I want to acquire and a few screwdrivers to complete a couple sets. Other than that and the occasional oddball like this bench stop, I ignore most of the listings…


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## Lazyman

Nope, not going to bid on that one. $20 would be about my max in that condition too. I'd probably splurge the $60 on the LV one rather than restore that one…or let my wife splurge on the LV since she always complains I just buy what I want and she never has any ideas left for Christmas.


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## prazbotta

I was searching for this (pictured below, stock photo from the web) when I found the eBay link.
Ended up with one after an estate sale. Didn't even know it was in one of the lots I bought. Random box of tools, and what do you know. Still trying to figure out a place for it. I don't have a proper work bench… scratch that, have not built a standalone work bench yet, but I guess that is why I peruse this thread.


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## Lazyman

Is that stop is designed to be place on the end or edge of the bench top or mounted underneath so that it goes through a hole in the top?


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## HokieKen

I believe I've seen stops like that where the base is mounted underneath the top.


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## drsurfrat

That is one spiffy dog. gonna have to keep that in mind when I eventually get to building a new bench.


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## rad457

I like my Veritas Prairie Dogs, Wife bought me a couple of sets after I built my bench and think I have added a few more since. Have them for the tail vice.
https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/tools/workshop/workbenches/benchtop-accessories/70156-veritas-prairie-dog?item=05G1026

Behind the face vice I usually have the Planing stops.
https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/tools/workshop/workbenches/benchtop-accessories/69837-veritas-planing-stop


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## Boatman53

I used to have one like that Praz. Sold or gave it to someone on this thread years ago. Just didn't seem to fit my idea of the bench I was building.
Jim


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## Lazyman

Those prairie dogs are pretty cool. Someone posted a DIY versionon LJ a while back. I think that they used spring loaded cabinet catches for the latching mechanism. I will have to see if I can find it again.

Edit: Found it in my favorites.


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## Lazyman

I did a test clamp up of about half of my bench (less than half the clamps I plan to use are in the picture below) to plan out my glue up strategy. Pretty sure this is going to be too heavy for me to manhandle through my planer by myself. Unless I decide to break it into 3rds for the first set of glue ups, I will probably not be using my planer for initial flattening. I did use makeshift winding stick just to check that it looks like I won't be putting any twist or other issues into it. I will make some proper winding sticks when after everything is glued up.










I pulled one of the boards I milled out of the test run because it developed about 2" bow as measured in the middle. I can pull it in by hand but I will see if can can get it to straighten out before including it. I just happens to be the one 2×10 instead of 2×12 I selected and its growth rings were noticeably wider than than the others. The rest have stayed nice and straight. Gonna have to get some more glue. My gallon of Elmers is almost gone and it is also about 7 years old so I don't want to risk using it for this anyway, even though it still yields a joint that is stronger than the wood when I tested it a couple of months ago.


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## HokieKen

I'd probably leave that board out permanently and go pick up another from Lowes if it were me. 2" is a lot and indicates a highly unstable structure. If you put it in the middle, it'll probably be fine and never be a concern again. But, it'll make the glue up a little more stressful and I'd just feel a little more warm and fuzzy if I left it for the burn pile.


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## Lazyman

Yeah. That is sort of why I put it aside for now. I probably exaggerated the amount a little (I forgot my wife's not reading this ;-). Probably closer to an inch of bow. I might just lay it out in the sun today and see if it straightens out and then move back to my shop for a few days before I decide.


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## Lazyman

I glued up the first 10" section and flattened the bottom. It don't think it's going to be necessary to run this through my planer. I'm liking the choice pine at this point.


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## CL810

Looking good Nathan! Really good!


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## controlfreak

It is funny how when you pick a slab for a bench top and feel all of that mass you get that feeling of "how am I going to run this through a lunch box planner".


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## EarlS

I ran the front and back sections of my top thru a DW735 by myself using a couple of roller stands. Hold the far end on the infeed side until it is about 1/2 way then go to the outfeed end and hold the front end. Once the section was thru, turn off the planer, raise the heads and push it back to the infeed side, flip it over (if necessary), lower the heads and repeat.

Since I was using reclaimed white oak that had been laying in a barn forever, I had a lot of twisty, warped, an bowed wood even after dimensioning the boards. Despite my best efforts, I have a twist in both sections. Dad will be here for Christmas so we can pick up where we left off when he was here in May.

I'm planning to make a router sled and flatten everything that way. It also looks like I'll have to run both sections thru the jointer to get a good perpendicular edge to glue the sections together. That will be a 2-man job on a 6" jointer with short in/out beds.


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## HokieKen

I ran mine through my planer after the first glue up in two sections. Using roller stands it was manageable. It was just too much for my planer to get them dead flat. My planer is two post unlike the Dewalt and isn't as rigid under heavy loads.


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## Lazyman

Half of my issue is that I would have to rearrange my shop to get the 12 feet of infeed and outfeed space, not counting about 2 feet width of my flip cart the planer sits on, all with the slab sitting on top of my current worktable in the middle. The cart raises the planer so that it is higher than most most other surfaces I would have to move my lathe out of the way to roll the planer out to my sloped driveway and then carry the slab out to the driveway. I calculate that the slab will weigh at least 150 lbs so about 75 for each half. Doable by myself but not fun for a 6'x11"x5" slab.

I guess it is a moot point now because it only took about 30 minutes to level the bottom of the first half with a jack plane and I glued some more boards onto the slab yesterday so it is now too wide to run through the planer anyway. I was pretty careful to prevent any pieces from sticking up too much so there wasn't that much leveling needed. Only one piece had a little crook that I had to plane straight before glue up. Not sure if that was caused by warping or I sawed the crook into it when I ripped and trimmed the 2×12s to width. We will see how bad the other side is when I finish the glue up and flip it over. I've got 2 or 3 more boards to glue on.


----------



## HokieKen

Yeah, in the long run, I may as well have skipped the planer other than the inital thicknessing of the individual timbers. Hand planes did all the real work.


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## EarlS

The only hand plane (Bridge City) I own fits in the palm of my hand. I ordered a Whiteside CNC flattening bit for the flattening router sled which should help things along.


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## Lazyman

So next design questions for the group. The Hovarter wagon vise requires an end plate that has to bear the pressure from the vise. The simple way to add that is to screw it into the end grain with long lag screws but I have toyed with the idea of attaching it to the front piece of the top with a condor tail as well. Hovarter recommends the bolts even with other attachments to prevent it from bowing under pressure.

My first question is related to the condor tail. So assuming that the end cap is attached to both the front and the back edge of the bench with a condor tail, how do people prevent wood movement issues with the grain on the end cap running at 90° to the rest of the top? My shop is only sort of climate controlled so humidity can swing with the seasons. Theoretically, the slab glue up with the boards oriented sideways, sort of simulates quarter sawn wood but still will move more than the end cap. I suppose that if you don't actually glue the condor tail it could move a little but only in one direction.

Secondly, would it be dumb to only put the condor tail on the front edge and not the back? I am a little worried about how precisely things have to be made for both front and back and assembly might also be a little complex, especially with alignment with the hole wagon for the vise involved, though I think that the hole can be oversized slightly to help with that.

The third option is no condor tail at all and simply use lag screws for the end cap (and maybe glue?). With this option, you could just have the end cap where it is needed for the wagon vise so it might only go half the width of the bench. Thoughts about that? If I go the full width with the end cap, I can over size the countersunk holes to allow a little movement. I have seen some benches made this way with the end cap only where needed for a vise and it doesn't hurt my eyes but I wonder if I will regret that later.


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## Lazyman

Two years ago I would not have known how to setup and use a handplane, Earl. I had picked up a couple of them at garage and estate sales but had never taken the time to figure out how to sharpen and fettle them. Still learning. Using hand planes is actually what lead me to build a bench. My work table is just too frustrating, especially the work holding capabilities it doesn't have.

I'm sure that Sansoo22 and others here will be glad to sell you a well restored old plane or two. Everyone should at at least a #4 or #5, even if just to say you have one. They look great sitting on a mantle.


----------



## DavePolaschek

Nathan, I pondered a condor tail for my little miter-box bench (which also has a wagon vise for working small stuff). I decided it wasn't worth the effort, as my little wagon vise is fine just being inset into one of the 4×6s I used, but I bought hard about the wood movement. I decided that if I was going to try that, I would do a sliding condor tail the whole depth of the bench, but only attach it firmly on the front. The back end would just ride in a sliding dovetail and be able to move with the seasons. The front would probably have a couple lag-bolts.

I also figured I would end up cutting the condor tail with my corded circular saw, on which I can angle the base-plate. A 14 degree angle is about a 1:4 dovetail, and I did a test and managed to get one close enough that it only took a little work with the timber-framing-slick to make an acceptable edge. The idea is stashed away in case I ever decide to replace my main bench with something other than a plywood topped bench.

But then I'm a hack. I only planed about 2/3 of the top of my new baby bench before calling it "flat enough." And I left the stain on a lot of the 4×6s after rescuing them from my neighbor's pergola.










It ain't pretty, but it's done and getting used in just under two weeks after I started taking the round corners off the 4×6s.


----------



## Lazyman

You mean sort of like a dovetailed bread board end?


----------



## DavePolaschek

Yeah, a sliding dovetailed breadboard end. Pretty sure that would solve the problems.


----------



## Lazyman

LOL, unless by trying to make that work, I create a bunch of other problems. I like the idea though.


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## HokieKen

My end cap is just there as a vise chop and is just screwed into the endgrain with long lags. So far no problems in 5 years or so. I did make the clearance holes for the chop a little larger than the bolt size to allow for movement. It ain't pretty but the vise hides it anyway.


----------



## Sylvain

> I had a lot of twisty, warped, an bowed wood even after dimensioning the boards. Despite my best efforts, I have a twist in both sections. Dad will be here for Christmas so we can pick up where we left off when he was here in May.
> 
> - EarlS


one can get a twisted top with perfectly straight boards.
look at wiki "ruled surfaces"

One has to verify te out of wind at glue-up.


----------



## EarlS

Nathan - William Ng making condor tails. I think I might even be able to get it right after watching his video.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

There's a way you all can one up me. I put large threaded inserts in and secured the end cap with machine screws leaving room for movement.


----------



## Sylvain

Instead of lag screws in end grain, one can use nuts embedded in the workbench top as shown on Roubo plates.
They used square nuts to keep them from turning.
Like those: https://www.rockler.com/3-8-diameter-bed-bolt 
But in soft wood, the square nut might nevertheless turn. Then it might not be possible to tighten them or to unscrew them.
More modern nuts would be those round bed nuts and the associated bed bolts.

example of bed bolts and nuts:
https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/hardware/bed-hardware/connectors/40445-bed-bolts?item=05G1701

I am not sure a half bread board is a good Idea because it would try to flex the middle screw/bolt which otherwise would only see traction.


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## CL810

I used the breadboard method to join my end caps.


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## Hammerthumb

> I used the breadboard method to join my end caps.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - CL810


That's how I do it Andy. 
Although, there is no reason that a condor tail on the last board of the bench top cannot be incorporated into this or any of the other methods suggested.
I have attach on one bench with tight dowel at the center of the bench and elongated the holes towards front and back. The last few benches I have made, the first dowel at the front of the bench is set tight, and progressively elongated holes towards the back side. Using this method, I have never had any expansion issues at the front of the bench, but have noted significant expansion at the back of the bench where I don't normally have to clamp anything.


----------



## CL810

That's smart Paul and I'd like to think that I thought that through, but I probably didn't. LOL


----------



## ac0rn

I like the bed bolt idea, less fuss, keep it simple.


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## theoldfart

Breadboard ends here too.


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## Lazyman

I hadn't though about bed bolts. I might have to think about cross dowels (barrel nuts) too.

One concern with a breadboard approach is the gap for the wagon vise jaw. It would definitely need to pinned tight to 2 boards on the front edge of the bench.










I haven't completely decided but I am leaning away from the condor tail. It might just add a little more complexity than I want for my first bench build. Might experiment on some scraps.


----------



## Lazyman

> Nathan - William Ng making condor tails. I think I might even be able to get it right after watching his video.
> 
> - EarlS


I happened to watch that Willam Ng video again this morning. One thing that doesn't make sense is that he cut the tails on his table saw with the blade angled to match the dovetail pitch. That would be pretty hard to do with an over 6' long plank standing on end on the table saw. It would hit my ceiling, not to mention clamping the plank to a sled and keeping it stable. I experimented using the band saw to cut the tails and that approach was doable. I cut a wedge the same pitch as the dovetails and it basically worked the same way adding a spacer as he did on the table saw for the spacing of the second cut. Could still be a little challenging with a long plank though.


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## bandit571

If the plank can not come to the saw, then the saw must come to the plank….

IF the circular saw can tilt enough, and lock…And it has a surface to slide along on edge ( saw's foot riding against the end of the plank) where it will be supported…one pass, flip the plank over, second pass….reset to cut the shoulders at 90 degrees…

maybe use a rip blade for the angled cut….and maybe a second saw (or just a blade for the first saw) with a 40 tooth cross cut …..


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## Lazyman

I would probably just "resort" to using a hand saw.


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## EarlS

I noticed the long board problem too. I like Bandit's plan of using a circular saw. I might give it a try and clean things up with a chisel. Looks like Nathan has already got more done on his bench than mine. If I take long enough maybe the top will petrify and I can have petrified wood top…..


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## Lazyman

No pressure Earl.

Using the circular saw would be pretty awkward because you will have to use it at an odd angle. Plus the main advantage of using the table or band saw is the precision you gain by using a spacer. Without that, I think that I can be more precise with a hand saw.


----------



## KentInOttawa

> I would probably just "resort" to using a hand saw.
> 
> - Lazyman


This seems the like wisest way to me, but for those who REALLY need to use a power tool that can do this without fancy jigs or attachments, they could use a RAS. I'm not saying that it is a perfect or perfectly safe way to do it, but it's relatively easy to set up and would work with even 12-foot long boards.

You could even do gang cuts and cut several boards at once.


----------



## Lazyman

I decided against a condor tail and used a temporary end cap just to get the Hovarter wagon vise set in the right position so I could give it a try. I'll use the temp end cap later as a drilling guide for the full sized one.


----------



## controlfreak

I am liking those square dog holes Nathan!


----------



## HokieKen

Slick Nathan!

How hard would it be to replace the mobing block if you needed too? I might have some concerns about the screws being able to wallow out the pine over time causing it to kick up under pressure.


----------



## Lazyman

Thanks. I am pretty happy with my choice of square dog holes so far. I need to make a couple of full sized dogs so that I can give it a good test. I just quickly cut a couple of blocks that fit the holes for the test. My goal is to make a dog for each hole that will sit flush when not in use so that there aren't any holes in the top for small parts to drop through, though I will put some round holes for hold-fasts later but they will be smaller (3/4" vs 1.25×1"). I may employ my CNC for making a batch of 10 dogs.


----------



## Lazyman

Kenny, I am pretty sure that I can simply remove the handle and loosen the lock ring against the end cap and slide the shaft forward enough that it can simply be tilted down backed out of the end cap. I will probably test that theory shortly because the vise's mechanism sticks out slightly below the bottom and I don't want to risk accidentally having the bench's weight on it as I move the top around. If not, it will not be a big deal to remove the end cap to quickly remove it either, since the end cap will just be bolted on .


----------



## EarlS

I'm trying to keep up with Nathan:


----------



## bigblockyeti

Needs more Bessey clamps.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Looking awesome fellas! I went back and forth a million times over square vs round dog holes. I wanted square ones but couldn't find a reason to make them when every accessory called for round ones. I really wanted them though.


----------



## HokieKen

Square dogs are for girls. Real men roll round.


----------



## Lazyman

Looks like you've already got the base ready to go, Earl, Looks to me like you jumped the line. And your bench is too small, if you can still walk through your shop, you should have made it bigger.

You've got it wrong, Kenny. Girls prefer square dogs over round ones.


----------



## Lazyman

> Looking awesome fellas! I went back and forth a million times over square vs round dog holes. I wanted square ones but couldn't find a reason to make them when every accessory called for round ones. I really wanted them though.
> 
> - KelleyCrafts


Using the CNC to cut them, I think it may have actually been less work making them square than drilling 10 of them by hand.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

I would have used the origin to cut mine. I used it to start the round holes in my bench making a perfect straight line. Actually used it for several parts of my bench. I do like the look of them but realized the majority of my accessories are round. Definitely looking good man.


----------



## HokieKen

> …
> You ve got it wrong, Kenny. Girls prefer square dogs over round ones.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Lazyman


I think that's exactly what I said…


----------



## controlfreak

I drilled all of mine by hand, I had to split it into two nights work too.


----------



## HokieKen

I piloted mine with my plunge router then finished them thru with an auger bit in a cordless drill. I like using hand tools, but not all the time ;-)


----------



## HokieKen

One good thing about constructing the top the way you did Nathan/Earl is that seasonal movement shouldn't have a big effect on how tight your dog holes are. It seems like at least 2 or 3 times a year I have to run a drill bit through a couple of mine to ream them out a tad so the dogs will move freely.


----------



## EarlS

> Needs more Bessey clamps.
> 
> - bigblockyeti


Yeti - I have a dozen more but they aren't quite long enough

I went with square dogs. Rather than using a strip of wood, I made the tension strip out of 1/8" UHMW. While the dogs were easy to make on the bandsaw, the dog hole strip was more of a challenge and took a while to make 12 openings.

I got a bit distracted yesterday morning watching youtube videos of all of the roubo bench builds. There are some really fancy versions out there. Looks like I will just have to figure out how to add some prairie style inlay into things.


----------



## EarlS

> One good thing about constructing the top the way you did Nathan/Earl is that seasonal movement shouldn t have a big effect on how tight your dog holes are. It seems like at least 2 or 3 times a year I have to run a drill bit through a couple of mine to ream them out a tad so the dogs will move freely.
> 
> - HokieKen


I'm pondering how much clearance to leave on the end cap mortises for the interior tenons to accommodate seasonal movement. I'm also wondering about potential seasonal movement issues with dovetails on both ends, front and back, with interior tenons.

It's almost 8:00 AM which is the earliest time I'm allowed to make loud noise in the shop. Today will be spent making a flattening sled and getting the top and bottom flat (or close to it).


----------



## Lazyman

Your dogs and holes must must have really close tolerances, Kenny, 1% of movement would be 7.5/10000". But I guess that's nothing to an old machinist turned engineer. ;-)

I am a little puzzled about how the seasonal movement would be causing the dog holes to be tighter. It doesn't seem like the amount of movement should really be detectable across just a 3/4" hole. The only other explanation I can think of is that the dogs are bending or warping a little bit?


----------



## HokieKen

It is possible that the dogs are changing too Nathan. And I didn't really make them to be tight, I have bullet catches to retain them. But, I drilled with a 3/4" bit and used a 3/4" dowel the way I bought it to make the dogs and everything fit initially so I went with it. I should really put the dogs on the lathe and sand them down a bit to avoid it in the future but for some reason, I always grab the drill instead.

For oak, IIRC, the wood will move ~1% for every 5% change in RH. My shop is inside and insulated but not climate controlled so the average RH probably swings by 20% from winter to summer. So it makes sense that the dogs could get a little snug sometimes I guess.


----------



## HokieKen

I like the UHMW springs Earl. Should work well if they don't take a permanent set.

If you orient your end caps with the same grain direction, I don't imagine you'll have much to worry about with internal clearances since you'll probably get approximately equal expansion contraction on both pieces. And your dovetails should be fine for the same reason I would imagine.

Wood movement was one of the deciding factors in me just lag-bolting my end cap on. Since my top moves primarily front-to-back with moisture instead of top-bottom and my end cap is oriented perpendicular, I was worried about any kind of tight joinery. And it was a good call. Sometimes I notice that my benchtop sticks out slightly past my end cap and other times it's flush. Probably not enough that it would have caused any major problem but it is definitely a consideration…


----------



## Lazyman

I guess part of what puzzles me is that it seems like shrinking wood would make the hole bigger, while the dog would get smaller. Of course the dog would probably change more quickly than the hole due to mass, which may indicate that it is the dog that is doing most of the changing. The grain orientation is also different obviously and the hole should only change across the width of the bench. Just guessing of course.

I tend to over analyze these things. Probably not a coincidence that analyze starts with anal.


----------



## HokieKen

You would think so but a hole will get bigger when the wood expands. Metal behaves the same way, you would think you would heat it up to make a bore smaller but it's the opposite. So the dogs and the holes are both moving the same way with humidity. Evidently the dogs just move more I guess…


----------



## MikeB_UK

> You would think so but a hole will get bigger when the wood expands. Metal behaves the same way, you would think you would heat it up to make a bore smaller but it s the opposite. So the dogs and the holes are both moving the same way with humidity. Evidently the dogs just move more I guess…
> 
> - HokieKen


Might be cupping just enough to make the hole very slightly banana shaped.


----------



## theoldfart

Next bench improvement


----------



## Lazyman

How are you planning to mount it Kevin?


----------



## EarlS

I'm still pondering wood movement for the top. The plans call for a mortise and tenon joint between the end cap and the inner top boards. The front board (laminate) will be dovetailed into the end cap, as will the back laminate board. The top is white oak boards standing on end (just like Oldfart's picture) with walnut end caps (laminated boards like a sandwich).

Here's my thinking on this:

If the mortise cavity on the end cap is a bit oversized so the tenon has 1/16" around the sides and 1/16" on the end that should help with any seasonal expansion. No glue, just 2 barrel bolts with slots thru the end cap and into the top to hold things tight but allow for left/right movement/expansion

The dovetails on the front and back laminate boards will be glued into the end cap. Any movement lengthwise will push the end caps out but not put stress on the joint. Expansion top to bottom would be negligible since the dovetails are essentially small pieces of wood. Expansion width wise would push to the outside and show up in the dovetails feeling like they are not flush with the end cap.

Side note: my shop is climate controlled but I'm sure there is still some humidity change from season to season.


----------



## Lazyman

After thinking about this a little, my theory is that the shear mass and thickness of the bench top will mean minimal wood movement from season to season. The same properties that cause it to take about a year per inch of thickness for green wood to air dry also means that it will take a long time for a thick slab's MC to change with RH changes. My theory is that there just isn't enough time between those seasonal changes for the MC of the wood to change enough that you will see significant wood movement. With the end cap oriented at 90° to the rest of the top, its change in length will be negligible and since it covers the end grain of the top, it reduces the moisture intake into the end grain, further slowing down MC changes in the top. With the bench sitting in a climate controlled environment, and RH swings should be slow and minimized. Basically, how long would it take for the slab MC to change 1 percent with say a 20% drop in RH, for example. I doubt that could happen before the season and RH changed.

One other thought is that by turning flat sawn boards sideways in the top glue up, you sort of simulate a quarter sawn grain which means that the movement across the width would mostly be radial expansion which is usually significantly less that the tangential movement further reducing movement. With white oak for example, radial movement is about half of tangential movement.

That's my theory and I am sticking to it.


----------



## CL810

(EDIT: Nathan may be lazy but he types fast!. The article I reference below proves your theory.)

Earl, you may find this Popular Woodworking article regarding wood movement interesting. It has a formula for calculating the amount of movement for the most common woods. A more complete listing of woods begins on page 16 of this US Forest Service article .

It says in it that wood movement occurs mostly across the width and not the length. Chris Gochnour (FWW contributing editor) says he never factors in wood movement along the length of a board in any furniture project.

The tricky part about wood movement is understanding the difference between flatsawn and quatersawn. When we make a bench top we typically take a board and change the orientation. Very few of us make a bench top the same way we would make a table top. It's very easy to imaging the wood moving from front to back, or side to side, in a table top. But when we make a bench top by turning a bunch of "2X4's" on their side then that flatsawn board's movement becomes top to bottom. Quartersawn boards are the kind of the opposite. Look at the graphic in the PW article. It shows what I'm trying to say much better.

Hammerthumb posted (#651) about pinning and dovetailed end caps.


----------



## theoldfart

Nathan, make a block 3×3x12. Drill a 5/8" hole about 5" deep in the center and drive the stop in. Then drill/chop a3/x3 hole in the bench top so the block fits very snug. Adjustments are done with a deadblow mallet.

That's the theory, we'll see how well I do.


----------



## Lazyman

I was considering going that route as well, Kevin but was going to make the mortise during the glue up to save some chopping. I was leaning towards that Crucible stop until I realized that I could either make a plate to attach to the block or buy one from TFWW for $20. Then I found the LV replica of the MF bench stop and switched gears.


----------



## CL810

Kevin, are the tenons on your bench standing a pinch proud? Looking at pics of your bench when you posted it as a project I don't see that.


----------



## drsurfrat

I found a good reference for quarter sawn vs flat sawn (along the grain is negligible) I chopped it in half so it would post larger…

"Multiply width x wood moisture change x coefficient = expansion" 
"good for 6 to 14 percent wood moisture"


----------



## theoldfart

Andy, they are. The bench has shrunk a bit here because of the lower humidity. I'm planning on doing a bench flattening this spring. I have a small split because I did not build in enough movement space on the bread board ends so I will redo those as well.
Expand the pic and you can see what I'm talking about.


----------



## ac0rn

I would agree with Nathan, no worries about the changes from ambient humidity. However the same would not be true for mass temperature change caused from direct sunlight. We know first hand, a table we made with goncalo alves, and curly maple. Tired of not seeing the wood because of the table cloth, we removed the cover to enjoy the table. A southern exposure in a large bay window. One day shortly after this we heard two large bangs, the glue didn't fail but the congalo alves did in two places. The table top is now walnut.


----------



## CL810

Kevin, Wow! How long did it take for the split to show up?

Earl, The tenons on Kevin's bench are a perfect example of what I was posting about.


----------



## theoldfart

About three years Andy, pretty disappointed. I should have anticipated the movement. I was totally focused on drawboring, did not elongate the holes on the breadboard ends.


----------



## CL810

Wood is strong!


----------



## theoldfart

Well so am I!

We will beat it into submission, then again I guess clamps will do.


----------



## EarlS

All of this makes sense. My biggest concern was with having dovetails on both ends and the front/back. Still, worst case, the laminate boards on the front and back might expand slightly top/bottom but the total amount of movement will be pretty small in the dovetails themselves since the tails will only be 1" or so/ Any movement through the width of the laminate boards will also be insignificant since they are only 1-1/4" thick.

Nathan's comment about how quickly the wood would expand/contract also makes a lot of sense.

We'll have to see how tight the dovetails are since this will be the first hand cut dovetails for me since I use the Leigh D4 for regular dovetails. William Ng has a good tutorial on how to make them. I'll have to find a different way to cut the tails than his method though.


----------



## Lazyman

Any idea what the current MC of the slab is now, Earl? It's been sitting in your shop for a while now so it may have acclimated. Compare the MC to the equilibrium moisture content for your shop's seasonal RH and temperature range. There are several EMC calculators online that you can use to look it up. Compare the EMC range to your slab and that can give you an idea how much the MC could change seasonally which you can use to estimate how much movement you can expect, especially if the current MC falls in the range.


----------



## Lazyman

I stumbled upon this interesting idea for a DIY adjustable height planing stop on Wood by Wright website. If I hadn't just gotten a LV MF replica for xmas, I would consider adding one of these.










He also has a video about planing stops n general and in the second half, he has pictures of a bunch of different types, both old and new, if any of you are interested.


----------



## KentInOttawa

James Wright (Wood by Wright) made a video on a similar stop on 18 Dec.


----------



## Lazyman

Yes. That is the same stop. The picture and link are for the free plans. He also sells a hardware kit if you don't want to find the parts yourself.


----------



## MikeJ70

> We ll have to see how tight the dovetails are since this will be the first hand cut dovetails for me since I use the Leigh D4 for regular dovetails. William Ng has a good tutorial on how to make them. I ll have to find a different way to cut the tails than his method though.
> 
> - EarlS


Earl,

Benchcrafted has a tutorial on making condor tails. I'm not sure if this has already been discussed or if you've seen it, but here is the link just in case: https://www.benchcrafted.com/download-files/condor_tails.pdf

They also have a planing stop as well in case anyone is interested: https://www.benchcrafted.com/planingstop


----------



## KelleyCrafts

The planing stop Nathan got is very interesting and I want to pull the trigger on it. I'm just curious if I actually need one with the tail vise and dogs. Thin stick kind of bends being trapped between dogs but the dogs still work and a stop to a certain extent.

Someone talk sense into me so I buy myself one of the MF replicas


----------



## Lazyman

Definitely don't get one Dave. It's way too cool for you. 










Besides, I would not want you to get one installed before I get my bench done and install mine.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Would take me no time at all to install one. You've talked me into it Nathan!! Thanks!


----------



## EarlS

Mike - I've watched the William Ng video on Benchcrafted several times. I'm going to follow most of it and use the condor tails write up that they also have for the tails that uses the bandsaw since I can't very well stand a 7 ft long piece up on the miter fence and run it thru the table saw. I'm also going to take lots of pictures and put the whole process in the build blog. The dovetails seem to be the most challenging part of the process.


----------



## MikeJ70

Earl,

Looking forward to see how it goes for you as I am planning on doing this as well. Hopefully sooner than later, but my bench build came to a complete stop mid November. I was having issues getting my mortise and tenons for the base to fit as nicely as I would like so I was getting pretty frustrated so I decided to step back and take a break for the holidays.


----------



## Lazyman

Earl, I used a band saw with an angled spacer to cut the tails on a short practice piece when I was still considering condor tails on my build. It worked well on my short practice piece but I am not sure how hard that would be on a 6-7 ft board. I pretty much decided that it would probably be easier to cut the tails by hand than trying to keep it supported and flat on the band saw.


----------



## CL810

Once I made a planing stop I use it much more than I do my bench dogs. That is not to say I don't covet Nathan's LV stop!


----------



## HokieKen

> The planing stop Nathan got is very interesting and I want to pull the trigger on it. I'm just curious if I actually need one with the tail vise and dogs. Thin stick kind of bends being trapped between dogs but the dogs still work and a stop to a certain extent.
> 
> Someone talk sense into me so I buy myself one of the MF replicas
> 
> - KelleyCrafts


I'm not sure I would need a bench stop if I had a wagon vise. My issue is with thin stock. When I clamp between dogs using my end vise, I have some section between the vise chop and the benchtop that is unsupported. So I get a lot of flex with really thin boards. I can normally get by that by just using a dog as a stop but since my dogs are round, they can rotate which can be a problem on longer boards or with wild grain where I'm not planing directly into the dog all the time. So, I have my cap set for a Millers Falls version. Since most of my planes are Millers Falls, I figure I should hold out for the genuine article instead of getting the LV replica ;-) Though, I see absolutely nothing wrong with the LV version and if it was something I genuinely need often, I'd go ahead and get one anyway.

I definitely want one with a metal head though. The wood ones don't seem as useful since the teeth can't take a firm bite into the board.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Well I think I can quote Nathan when he said I am a super cool guy and need to get a super cool stop installed on my bench before he does. That's almost verbatim I think.

I put an order in this morning if anything just to 'F' with Nathan.


----------



## HokieKen

Definitely make sure you install yours first.


----------



## Lazyman

I guess I better flip my top over and drill a couple of holes today before I start working on the base. Sounds like time for some FUn!


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Let me know when you're done Nathan and then I can say "Just kidding" or something to that affect.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

How long is the 1" post on that thing?


----------



## Lazyman

LOL.

Just the post is 2-7/16" long but the entire thing is 3" long. The post diameter looks like it is 63/64".

The one "complaint" (more of an observation really) about the LV stop is that to rotate the head to use a different edge, you have to completely loosen the height adjustment screw to slide it completely out to turn it because of the index grooves in the shaft that prevent it from turning while in use. I am sure that won't be a problem. I just didn't realize that is how it works. I am impressed with the overall quality and how solid it appears to be. Not being an MF snob I am not sorry I didn't wait to find a a vintage MF version.

Edit to add: it is really height lock screw not an adjustment screw.

Kenny, I think that if I was making the DIY adjustable stop, I would probably make and attaach a steel plate to the wood block similar to the LV/MF one so that it would have teeth.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

I read the instructions and saw that you had to go all the way up to rotate it. However, probably worth it to have the ability to change to any of the four surfaces.

The post being 63/64" makes sense for the 1" hole they want you to drill.

I also think getting dust and shavings in the recess might be more annoying than the rotating problem.


----------



## HokieKen

I'm pretty sure the MF version can be rotated to any position without removing it. It just uses an expanding mandrel type of locking mechanism so there are no indexing grooves or keys. The LV version uses a wedge lock which is definitely a better choice for locking down solidly. And I don't know for sure but in the long run, the fixed index positions is probably preferable. The LV only has to lock the height, the lock doesn't have to resist rotation. The MF has to use the locking mechanics to resist rotation as well. Which could very easily become a problem with a well-used one.


----------



## EarlS

Just to be different, I might have to get the Benchcrafted planing stop, which looks to mount into a square dog. Of course, that would also mean I need to get some hand planes and learn how to use them.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

You can just recess it into the bench because it'll look cool Earl. We all know you don't use hand tools, we accept you for that, mostly.

I think you're right Kenny, if you have to loosen the thing to raise it I don't see a huge disadvantage of pulling it up 3/4" and rotating it IF you want to rotate it as a trade off for locking in. I guess Nathan and I will find out soon enough.


----------



## Lazyman

I looked at it a little more closely and I was wrong. You don't have to completely remove it to rotate it. There is a groove around that the inner shaft so that the index pins can slide through when you rotate it. I just happened to have it lined up with the slot that allows you to remove it when I initially tried. A little hard to photograph the black parts.










Note the that there is a matching wedge in the base that matches the one on the shaft and spring under so that pops it up when released.


----------



## HokieKen

The benchcrafted design is good if you want to use it in your dog holes Earl. Only issue is that, best I can tell at least, it wouldn't be recessed below the surface when not in use. So you'd have to take it out and store it elsewhere. Which means whenever I needed it, I wouldn't be able to find it and whenever I didn't need it, it would be in my way ;-)


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Earl could recess it into the top of a dog and then have the front of the stop recessed into the bench so it's flush when not in use.


----------



## Lazyman

I was considering one like the Benchcrafted stop until I decided to go with the LV one, though I was leaning towards the BT&C one for cost and easier installation. Actually, after seeing the BT&C, I figured I could just make one out of steel plate.

To get if flat, you just have to make a little pocket for the edge to sit down in.


----------



## bandit571

Had a home-built one for a while….chunk of an old saw plate…screwed to a dog's top…merely had to make an "extra" dog…is all..


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Wouldn't be hard to make. I would recess the thing into the square block if it were me. Then the whole thing would be flat when not in use.


----------



## drsurfrat

That wouldn't be hard to make. Especially in a harder brass alloy, so that a slip on a thin board would not chip your plane blade.

I'm more simple-minded when it comes to dogs, just a drawer fulll of various heights to hold anything form 1/4" panel to a big bowl.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

That's a good idea too, like Clayton's as well. I think I'm just a more dollars than sense kind of guy at times.


----------



## BlasterStumps

These are not actually stops but work with a stop. I can't remember where I got the idea (not mine) but they work good for holding stock for chamfering.










Hey Mike near Boston, what are those blocks mounted inside the front of your drawer? Curious minds…


----------



## Lazyman

Hey Kenny. I forgot to point out that in the WbW video I linked to before he shows another MF bench stop design that I thought was kind of cool too. It looks like there is a knob on the bottom of the bench for adjusting the height. Here is a link to the point (about 8:45) in the video where he shows a couple of pictures of it.


----------



## Mosquito

That's a good idea Mike. With round dog holes near the front of the bench, I imagine those work fantastic


----------



## BlasterStumps

Might work for beading on corners of stock too. I just have not tried that yet. With the Record 405 and with the blade set I got with it I might have to give it a try. I think I will have to do some sharpening of the cutters first though. If I do another bench, I will have to try out some tools in the making of it.


----------



## drsurfrat

> Hey Mike near Boston, what are those blocks mounted inside the front of your drawer? Curious minds…
> - BlasterStumps


They are the Ikea-like attachments for the drawer front to the sides, nothing more. Super Cheap bench, but it is my workhorse and I don't care if I damage it…

I have a standard end vice with a retractable dog as well, so I just that to pinch against my various height dogs.


----------



## HokieKen

In that case, why dado the drawer sides into the face? Just belt and suspenders?


----------



## Lazyman

More like belt and screws. He never needs to drop his drawers.


----------



## drsurfrat

It was assembly required. The dadoes were or positioning, the blocks have a cam action screw that pulls int the front snug to the sides. It works, and when things loosen up, I can give it a twist instead of it falling apart.


----------



## ac0rn

Beware the man that uses both a belt and suspenders.


----------



## EarlS

After a lot of consideration I'm thinking of not using dovetails to connect the front and back laminate boards to the end caps on the roubo bench. Here's my idea. Any concerns I might have missed?


----------



## Boatman53

Short grain on those arms will be the first to fracture. Unless I'm not fully understanding the sketch.
Jim


----------



## KelleyCrafts

That would look pretty cool, however, that isn't a hugely strong joint like a dovetail. The top and bottom pieces of the cross are weaker but with todays PVA glues and the side grain glue up on the end cap I think it'll be fine, just be carefully banging it in. Others will chime in I'm sure.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Looks like Jim posted at the same time I was typing away on the phone. Same thoughts too.


----------



## bondogaposis

I think it would be just as easy to make a dovetail as that. The short grain on the cross would concern me.


----------



## Lazyman

Not sure that will be any easier to cut than a through dovetail Earl? Are you planning to use the router for both pieces?

I wonder if you don't square the corners whether the tabs would be stronger?


----------



## Sylvain

> I think it would be just as easy to make a dovetail as that. The short grain on the cross would concern me.
> 
> - bondogaposis


+ 1


----------



## Lazyman

Meanwhile, I finally milled up all of the lumber for laminating the legs and stretchers, including pre-cutting the mortises for the long stretchers. I am debating whether to also cut the mortises for the short stretchers in the face before I glue up the legs. Hoping to do most of the leg and stretcher glue up today.










It took me a while to decide on how tall to make the bench but finally settled on a bench height of 34". Current bench is almost 36 which is a little high for hand plane work for me. I may eventually make a Moxon vise for when the 34 is a little low, though I have an adjustable height stool in the shop that may mitigate that need somewhat.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Looking good Nathan. You put that plane stop in? Mine won't deliver until Friday.


----------



## controlfreak

Can't wait to see it Nathan, looks great!


----------



## Lazyman

Not yet Dave. I thought I would give the mail time to at least get it close to you. Beside, this top is so heavy, I don't want to turn it over any more than I have too. I can manage to flip it over by myself but once the legs are ready to be attached I am definitely going to have to get someone to help me to.

Plenty of ways left to screw things up, CF.


----------



## theoldfart

Done


----------



## MikeB_UK

You not chopping out a bit so you can knock it down under the bench surface?


----------



## theoldfart

It extends below the bench top by eight inches or so Mike. The block measures 3×3x12"


----------



## EarlS

For better or worse I went ahead and made the end cap joints using the dado stack and table saw. I thought about the short grain on the cross. If the laminate boards are glued to the main top then the entire top should move roughly as one piece, which shouldn't be much since wood doesn't tend to get longer, but rather wider or taller (which should be this case since the boards are stood on end). That would mean the end caps shouldn't see excessive stress from the joint with the laminate boards as things move by season. I'm wondering if the end cap joints might be more decorative than functional. Certainly, the houndstooth profile has some very narrow place in the profile that would seem to be very prone to cracking if there was much movement.

I'm off by about 3/32" so tomorrow's task will be to check the tenon on the tail vise end and make sure the top and bottom shoulders are in line and also make sure the tenon is shorter than the mortise depth.

That is a sturdy looking dog (3"!!!) and plane stop.

Good thing I had a head start on Nathan. He's speed building the base. My back can attest to how heavy a 4×24 x 87 chunk of oak is. Looks like I will be flipping it a couple times tomorrow if anyone wants a work out.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

The hounds tooth dovetail does have a very narrow point where the pins fit into the tails but if you take a 1/8" piece of wood and try to pull it apart, long grain pull, you couldn't do it. In the case of your joint you could probably pull the tab pieces off fairly easy even though they are bigger than the pins on a hounds tooth.

I thought you were doing the joint to do something different or have a different look, I didn't know you were trying for a strong joint because I thought you mentioned bolting the end cap on as well, or maybe that was Nathan??

If you want it strong then I would go back to dovetails or nothing and just mortise the end cap on with bolts which is what I did. I went back and forth on the dovetails and failed at a half blind in my tail vise so I said screw it, my front piece is continuous and has some figure and I wanted to keep that piece so I couldn't afford another error. That's why mine doesn't have it.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

On a side note, I had some spending cash from Xmas and ordered some stuff from Rob Cosman for the second time and last night at 10pm his time on New Year's Eve, he calls me to thank me for my order just like he did for my last order. I don't do that when I get orders, I need to stop being the asshole I am and make calls when I send out my orders.


----------



## MikeB_UK

> It extends below the bench top by eight inches or so Mike. The block measures 3×3x12"
> 
> - theoldfart


I mean chopping out this bit Kev, so it's flush or beneath the bench top.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

So I built my bench November 2020 and then I had to machine some turning tools, started an executive desk for my pops and then got covid which made me lazy for the last six months. So I haven't done to much work on the new bench other than starting that desk. I'm back out there now finally feeling better and this bench is a little shorter than my last plus I have a much thicker mat on the floor now so I'm thinking of building a moxon vise this week. I did some test cuts for the dovetailed drawers for this desk on the new bench and it's just uncomfortable. Not liking the height at all.

Now I just need to figure out how spendy of hardware I want to grab.

Benchcrafted is $180, woodcraft has a set that looks decent for $99 or I can go super cheap at McMaster car and get everything for I think around $80.

Obviously the super nicely machined benchcrafted free spinning wheels are appealing but it's just a moxon vise.

Planning to use mesquite I milled a few years ago. I have tons of citrus I would love to use up but it's kind of plain and just yellow.

Suggestions are welcome.


----------



## EarlS

Dave - I bought the Benchcrafted cast iron version rather than the shiny one. saved some $$ but it still looks sharp and they are SOLID (what do you expect from a company in IA??).

As for the joint: The end caps will be fastened with barrel bolts which is why I think the joint between the boards on the front and back is more decorative and less utilitarian. I agree with you on the dovetail being stronger. The strength of a traditional dovetail is the angle which basically deflects the stress. I can remember physics when you calculate force on an incline plane that the cos or sin of the angle is multiplied to the mass to determine the actual downward force. The rest of it is transferred into the horizontal direction. Dovetails probably benefit from the angles as well. I'm not doing a very good job of explaining. I'm sure one of the mechanical or civil engineers can provide all of the details.

The tail vise end cap joint looks good. Now I just have to get the other end to fit.


----------



## HokieKen

You resolve the force acting on the angle into vertical and horizontal vectors Earl. So a force acting on a 45 degree angle puts equal amounts of sheer and tension into the board. In the case of your joint, you get pure sheer on two sections which is your weak point. But since there won't be any significant forces acting on that joint, it's a non-issue IMO. Just roll with whatever tickles your fancy


----------



## EarlS

yah - what Kenny said

Plus I just have to be different and I'm not sure what my dovetails would look like. Think sliding dumbass joint, or worse.


----------



## Lazyman

If the tabs break off, Earl, just nail them back on. 

Actually now that I say that in jest, you could drill holes from the top and bottom and put dowels in them to strengthen them. If you bore all the way through, you could obviously put a single down through.

I didn't get quite as far today as I hopped because I decided to cut mortises into the faces for the short stretchers before gluing up the legs. 









They need to be just about 3/4" deeper so I'll do that with plunge router or chisels after glue up. I ordered a longer end mill that I hope will reach in far enough.

I did manage to get the last of the legs in clamps just few minutes ago. 









Tomorrow I'll glue up the stretchers and finish making the mortises for the short stretchers.


----------



## Lazyman

I see a Moxon in my future as well. I have been working on top of the new bench top which is sitting on my old outfeed/assembly table and for some steps at least it is actually kind of nice being up high. One idea I saw a while back was using old bar bells, the kind with threaded lock collars, for the hardware. I might have to keep my eyes open for an old one at a garage sale, though I really like the looks of the Benchcraft hardware.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Earl, for the moxon setup they only have the cast iron kit, no shiny options available.

I showed the options to my wife and asked her what she thought and she just said to get the benchcrafted ones because when she searched what a moxon vise was, almost all of them she saw had that hardware.


----------



## EarlS

Nathan - I had considered pinning the laminate board into the end cap in the middle of the board, but from the side. I'm not sure there is enough material in the 1-1/4" squares to drill in a dowel without having it split out down the road.

My bench top is 37" tall. The table saw is currently 35" and I have to hunch just a bit so I went a little taller. After the bench is finished I'm planning to re-do the table saw mobile base and incorporate some storage under the table and raise it to 37" as well.

Here are a couple pics:



















I have to fix this so I can get the fingers in the joint to line up:










I think the tail vise end probably holds the solution. Either the tenon is too long in the mortise or the top and bottom shoulders are slightly off.


----------



## controlfreak

If you want to go ultra cheap on the Moxon like I did you can use two Golds Gym dumbell bars. I think they were $7 each at walmart. I don't use it much after I built my bench.

My shop is small so my max height on the bench was dictated by my table saw height so it can have work not bump into it when cutting. Also serves as an outfeed table. I figured that it could always be lowered later but it seems perfect height now. I spent the afternoon getting window stiles perfectly square via hand plane. Wagon Vise is doing a wonderful job holding the pieces. I still my add a plane stop for long thin pieces that would bow in the wagon vise.


----------



## Lazyman

> Nathan - I had considered pinning the laminate board into the end cap in the middle of the board, but from the side. I m not sure there is enough material in the 1-1/4" squares to drill in a dowel without having it split out down the road.
> 
> - EarlS


My thinking is that by drilling into it vertically, the dowel improves the strength of the fingers. I think that if you glue a 1/2" dowel in there, it could never break off.


----------



## HokieKen

Looks fine to me Earl. With the bed bolts bearing the load from the wagon vise I don't foresee any issues.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

> Looks fine to me Earl. With the bed bolts bearing the load from the wagon vise I don't foresee any issues.
> 
> - HokieKen


+1 The barrel bolts might pull that completely tight too. I would put those in and tighten everything up before shaving the mortise or tenon.

The cross piece looks good to me.


----------



## CL810

Definitely recommend Benchcrafted over my veneer screws. Too much play.


----------



## Lazyman

Hmm. I finally took the shrink wrap off the Hovarter leg vise in preparation for making the appropriate cuts in the leg and when I work the mechanism it feels and sounds like something is not right. The sound is one thing but it just feels like something is not right. The wagon vise makes almost no sound and feels very smooth.

Here is a video of the sound.

I've sent an email to Len to see if this is normal or perhaps just needs some grease or something.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Nathan that isn't right. My two leg vise hardware kits from him don't make a sound.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Thanks Clayton, I threw in an order with Benchcrafted this morning. Going to start the build today.


----------



## HokieKen

Nope, that definitely isn't normal Nathan. Sounds like a burr or chip broke off in there and is getting dragged. I'd wait to see what Len says but it may be as simple as pulling the housing apart and blowing it out .


----------



## EarlS

Nathan - that doesn't sound good at all. I hope it is an easy fix.

Barrel bolts are in for both end caps. Looks like the 3/32 extra length in the table length is still there so I will use the circular saw to trim just a bit off the tenon shoulders from the non-tail vise end. Definitely want to sneak up on it. Hopefully, I won't have to flip the top over too many more times.


----------



## KentInOttawa

Here's a shot of the innards of my older version. As you can see, it's just a simple gear moving a wedge against a heavy spring. There's nothing in there that should be making a sound like that.


----------



## Lazyman

You know, one of my first impressions is that it sounds a little like an old spring whose end is rubbing on a rough surface.


----------



## HokieKen

That rings true Nathan. It definitely sounds like something is dragging. A spring end would make sense.


----------



## Lazyman

Okay. Time to tap the brain trust here. What are your thoughts on how low below the top of the bench to put the leg vise screw/shaft. I guess what I want to hear is how far below the top you put yours and whether in hindsight you wish you had put it higher or lower and why. I was thinking that 9" would be sort of a sweet spot but it occurs to me is that if I put it more than about 8" down, it might be annoying always having to stoop over to turn the wheel all the time. 8" seems to be about the height where I can reach the wheel with only a slight bend.

So what do you think. Too high, too low, or just get it done for crying out loud?


----------



## KelleyCrafts

The top of my bar is 13.5" from the top of my bench. I don't have a wheel to turn and I'm glad I didn't go the wheel route since this is just a half turn, maybe 3/4 turn. I can just grab the top of the lever and pull it up and twist it no problem.

Just my .02. I remember fighting myself on that decision too.


----------



## HokieKen

Mine is down 10" from the top which is 24" off the floor. I chose that because it was 2/3 of the distance from the parallel guide to the benchtop. In hindsight, I have no complaints. It doesn't bother me to reach it there to lock the hovarter. I could probably live with 8" but I wouldn't put it any higher because there are times I use that full throat depth.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

I have 8 1/2" of face clearance on my leg vise, if I recall.


----------



## EarlS

I didn't have a lot of time in the shop last night but I did manage to take care of the pesky 1/16" or so that I needed to take off the tenon shoulder (and tenon) so the laminate board and end cap joint fits on both ends, front and back. I might need to take a shaving off here and there so the fingers on the laminate boards are tight in the end cap joint socket but not too tight.

Next up is getting the hole for the tail vise screw set up and drilled. Once again, I didn't follow the plans close enough so centerline of the dog holes are not where they should be to use the screw hole location on the plans.


----------



## HokieKen

Good deal Earl. I'm sure that's a load off the mind! You really need to get a rabbet plane to tweak the fit on those shoulders ;-)


----------



## Lazyman

I settled on 9 1/2" below the top for the center line of the shaft which gives me a 9" throat. I let my CNC do the most of the work for the shaft, bearing and x-link groove. The shaft recess is really just a pilot hole for the Forstner bit to drill the rest of the way through.










None of my usual methods for holding the piece on the bed work because it's over 4" thick so I went with DIY double side tape. 









Much easier actually than real double side tape. I hate that stuff because of the residue.

After squaring up the grooves.










BTW, I heard back from Len at Hovarter and he didn't think the noise was anything to worry about. I decided to open it up and I think it is just the spring rubbing. I put a little grease on the surface and that did reduce the noise but it is still not as smooth as the wagon vise. I should have taken pictures while I had it open. It doesn't look like the older model Andre showed above. There is no gear, for one thing.


----------



## rad457

Think ya mean Kent Them fancy vises out of my Pay Scale!


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Nothing to worry about? It still makes noise though. Hmmm….not sure I like the response.

Nathan us Origin people with our wannabe CNC's use a double sided tape that doesn't leave a residue. It's used for golf clubs normally I guess but it's pressure sensitive and works well. They recently started selling it on the shaper tools website.


----------



## Lazyman

> Think ya mean Kent Them fancy vises out of my Pay Scale!
> 
> - Andre


LOL. I knew it was one of the Lumberjocks with a face like an animal. It turns out it was the pig face one and not the dog faced one. 

Yeah Dave. I was not exactly happy with his response but he did say to let him know if it doesn't work properly. It really is a surprisingly simple device and I may open it up one more time to make sure that it really is the spring rubbing against the plate that is causing the problem. I may even try using some emery cloth on the spot that rubs on the spring to see if that helps or eliminates the sound and rough feel.

BTW, do you happen to know the brand name of the double sided tape? I looked on the Shaper website but cannot read the brand name in the picture. When I search the web for golf club double sided tape all if find is Golfworks grip tape that is solvent activated. The masking tape and CA glue works very well though. You put tape on both things you want to temporary hold and some glue on one side and spray the other with a little activator to speed things up and you are ready to go in about a minute. I have a roll of 3" tape that works well for large pieces like this.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

I use 2" wide rolls. I bought one roll from them the last time I ordered shaper tape and it's exactly the same as the stuff I originally bought at a MUCH cheaper rate.

Here's what they sell:










But the stuff I normally buy and will continue to buy is the same but much cheaper. Findtape.comhttps://www.findtape.com/JVCC-DCP-01-Double-Sided-Crepe-Paper-Tape/p192/?idx=1&tid=2&info=JVCC%2520DCP-01%2520Double-Sided%2520


----------



## EarlS

> Good deal Earl. I m sure that s a load off the mind! * I *really need to get *YOU* a rabbet plane to tweak the fit on those shoulders ;-)
> 
> - HokieKen


I fixed your typographical error.

Nathan - I kind of wish I would have got a CNC instead of the super fancy JessEm router table. If the Shaper Origin had been widely available a couple years back I would have been seriously tempted to get it instead of the JessEm. I certainly would use a CNC or Shaper more than I use the router table.

I use the double sided tape from HD. A putty knife does a good job of getting all of the residue off and then I hit it with the ROS when I'm prep sanding before finishing so anything that is left on the surface or might have leached into the wood is removed. Just don't stab your finger with the putty knife. It makes a nice deep cut that bleeds like crazy and takes forever to heal.


----------



## Mosquito

I do the painters tape and CA glue trick all the time on my CNC too. I've used carpet tape in the past, but have had no worse results with the painters tape, and it's way easier to remove. Works well when I want to profile the outside of a piece that's pretty close to final dimension, or if I need to cut out an inside part but don't want to deal with tabs (or pocketing the whole thing)


----------



## KelleyCrafts

I would rather have a real CNC I think but the origin is nice and there is a lot of on tool easy design elements you can do for simple functions so there are bonuses. I just don't have room for a CNC. If I got rid of my metal lathe, mill, and 2×72 I could fit one in that corner but I don't think the trade off would be worth it.


----------



## HokieKen

This is the double sided tape I use exclusively in the shop. I've tried two other brands in the past and ended up throwing them both in the trash after one or two uses. This stuff goes on easily and it's pretty thin so it won't skew your piece and after pressing the pieces together it has good holding power and makes an excellent bond against shearing. But when you're done you pry the pieces apart and it peels off easily and cleanly with no residue left behind. And I mean NO residue. Which was my main beef with the others I tried. I ended up having to use scrapers and Goo-Gone to get remnants off an acrylic template with one of the other brands. I obviously haven't tried them all and I'm sure there are other good ones out there. But I like this well enough that if you try it and don't like it, I'll reimburse you for it and pay for you to ship it to me ;-) *BUT* it has to be the exact one that I linked. One of the ones I threw away was the same brand and the packaging was very similar but it was a different product. It's the one I had a fight with on the acrylic…

I agree with Dave, I'm not sure I'd just live with that noise on the Hovarter. Even if it works perfectly. I don't like noises and am kinda hypersensitive to them I suppose. But scratching noises like that aggravate me and I probably wouldn't be willing to endure it. I'd have to open mine back up to be certain but if I'm remembering correctly, I think you could probably just bend the tag end of the spring back over on itself to eliminate the issue and not affect function. IIRC, the spring just forces the washers back vertical when you rotate the cam back to the free position. You might even just shoot Len another e-mail and tell him it's the end of the spring rubbing and it's annoying and ask if he has a spare spring he can send you so you can just replace it. Kent must have the twin-screw version of the Hovarter. I'm pretty sure that pinion mates with a rack that couples the two mechanisms so they operate in sync.

I want a 5-axis CNC machine *AND* an Origin. Donations are welcome.


----------



## CL810

DM me for directions on how to send money to Ken. ;-)


----------



## EarlS

> I want a 5-axis CNC machine *AND* an Origin. Donations are welcome.
> 
> - HokieKen


I'm on it, right after I get a winning lottery ticket.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Apparently Benchcrafted closes from the 5th -16th. I guess the Christmas break wasn't good enough. Dang Iowa people.

They weren't going to ship the Moxon kit until at least the 17th but it looks like highland has them in stock so I ordered from them and cancelled the Benchcrafted order. Bummed I didn't know, could have had that this week probably if I ordered from Highland earlier.

In the mean time I have been working on the vise and will probably have it complete and ready to go before the hardware gets in. Might even add some extra unnecessary flare to it while I wait.


----------



## KentInOttawa

> Think ya mean Kent Them fancy vises out of my Pay Scale!
> 
> - Andre


It's also out of my scale but I got lucky when I bought my bench, used.


> LOL. I knew it was one of the Lumberjocks with a face like an animal. It turns out it was the pig face one and not the dog faced one.
> 
> - Lazyman


I resemble that remark.


----------



## EarlS

> Dang Iowa people.
> 
> - KelleyCrafts


heh heh heh - I resemble that remark


----------



## KelleyCrafts

I included you on that buddy don't worry!


----------



## drsurfrat

> ... * I *really need to get *YOU* a rabbet plane to tweak the fit on those shoulders ;-)
> - HokieKen
> I fixed your typographical error.
> - EarlS


Earl, If you really want a rabbet plane, I have this 140 weld rescue from Mos that I added a couple parts to make work. The braze seems solid, and it will do the job. Just promise you won't take it and sell that parts…


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Earls on vacation until the 17th Mike, he'll get back to you then.


----------



## HokieKen

> Earls on vacation until the 17th Mike, he'll get back to you then.
> 
> - KelleyCrafts


LOL

That's a great plane Mike is offering Earl. Snatch it and run. Even a power tool guy will find a skewed rabbet plane handy.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

> Earls on vacation until the 17th Mike, he'll get back to you then.
> 
> - KelleyCrafts
> 
> LOL
> 
> That s a great plane Mike is offering Earl. Snatch it and run. Even a power tool guy will find a skewed rabbet plane handy.
> 
> - HokieKen


I agree Kenny. I honestly don't know how ANY woodworker can go without a block plane. So handy and it's not used to "smooth" necessarily, it can be used for so many things. A skewed block is even better imo.


----------



## Mosquito

Glad to see that 140 working again Mike. I had it way too long without doing anything with it to make it functional


----------



## EarlS

Full disclosure - I have absolutely no idea how to properly use and care for a plane. I'm not really sure what a rabbet plane is or how it is different from any other kind of plane. I'm barely functional with a chisel.


----------



## HokieKen

A rabbet plane has an opening in one side so it can plane right up to a corner. And the blade is skewed to handle endgrain and crossgrain cuts. In other words it's tailor made for tuning tenons and their shoulders ;-)


----------



## Lazyman

Here is the vintage skew rabbet plane I got for Christmas, Earl and I've already put it to use tweaking the tenons on one of the stretchers for my bench. I still need to fettle it a bit but this one is in good enough shape I was able to use it right out of the bubble wrap.










The side away from the camera can be removed so that you can get the blade right up against the corner where the cheeks meet the shoulder. But that would not be the first plane I got if I was new to hand planes. I would recommend a #5 (AKA jack) plane. While you probably got a decent enough finish with your router planing set up for a workbench, a tuned and sharp #5 will give you a perfect surface. Plus, when a hand plane is working well, it is one of the most gratifying things you can do in the shop, IMO. I don't, know how many times when fettling a plane after sharpening, I end up spending the next ten minutes just turning a piece of scrape into a pile of shavings. It must cause you to release endorphins or something because it can be addictive. Shhiiiiick.


----------



## drsurfrat

It's welded, so not 'collectible' and perfect for learning. the only thing is sharpening. I could put my best edge on it, but sooner or later you'll need to put on a new edge. If you can do, or are interested in that, just PM me your mailing address.


----------



## HokieKen

I often wish that Stanley or Sargent or Millers Falls had made a version of their skewed block plane with the blade skewed the opposite way and the open cheek on the opposite side. I would like to have a pair but even if I could only have one, as a right-handed fella, I'd prefer the left side was the removable cheek. One of these days I may pony up for the Veritas version in the other direction.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

I use that Veritas version and have had the opposite side on my list for ages. I'll own it at some point.


----------



## Mosquito

LN used to have both too, but they may have discontinued the left version, who knows if that's indefinitely or just until they can figure out how to manage their new supply chain in this Covid world.

Gives me an impractical idea though… Who wants to make a spear point rabbet plane with removable plates on both sides (or with no removable plates like a normal rabbet block) ?


----------



## PCDub

> ...
> 
> Gives me an impractical idea though… Who wants to make a spear point rabbet plane with removable plates on both sides (or with no removable plates like a normal rabbet block) ?
> 
> - Mosquito


Calling Devin! Calling Devin!


----------



## Lazyman

After just a couple of uses so far, I think I agree that I would prefer a left side skew. I think that I would be less likely to hit my knuckles on the sharp corners on the tall shoulders (1-3/8") on the bench stretchers. I actually got out the roundover plane I made last year, even though it doesn't work all that well and softened the corners after drawing a little blood yesterday.

I was actually leaning towards the Veritas one but with backorder, price AND the condition of this one, I decided to give the MF a try.


----------



## BlasterStumps

I haven't had that much call for the rabbet plane but for cleaning up the cuts mostly so I fashioned this pair of left and right blocks. I have showed them before to probably a lot of eye rolling but they work just fine. Not a lot of cost involved for something that could be a placeholder and get you by for the time being.


----------



## controlfreak

> A rabbet plane has an opening in one side so it can plane right up to a corner. And the blade is skewed to handle endgrain and crossgrain cuts. In other words it's tailor made for tuning tenons and their shoulders ;-)
> 
> - HokieKen


I was expecting fur and a bushy tail.


----------



## controlfreak

> I would like to have a pair but even if I could only have one, as a right-handed fella, I d prefer the left side was the removable cheek. One of these days I may pony up for the Veritas version in the other direction.
> 
> - HokieKen


I am looking at this thinking I need this plane. As a righty do I want the "left" one or the "right" one? I am afraid this could be one of those left means right or right means left type of things.


----------



## HokieKen

You probably want the left-hand version CF. So the open side is on the left. So opposite the Stanley and Millers Falls that Mike and Nathan posted above. When you select the model and blade material, it'll show you the picture of the one you selected.


----------



## HokieKen

> I was expecting fur and a bushy tail.
> 
> - controlfreak


We don't care what you do in the bedroom.


----------



## drsurfrat

Silly Rebate, Fir is for framing…


----------



## rad457

When I built my bench picked up LN 60 1/2 rabbet as per instructions from the Wood Whisper Must admit have not regretted it yet, the difference between it and the MF 07 to me is insignificant? The extra heft to the LN probably compensates for the skew.


----------



## controlfreak

> You probably want the left-hand version CF. So the open side is on the left. So opposite the Stanley and Millers Falls that Mike and Nathan posted above. When you select the model and blade material, it ll show you the picture of the one you selected.
> 
> - HokieKen


That's what I figured because the left is backordered and the right is available.


----------



## Lazyman

> I would like to have a pair but even if I could only have one, as a right-handed fella…
> - HokieKen


We all think you should get a pair Kenny.


----------



## HokieKen

Even if I had a pair, my wife would only let me use one at a time.


----------



## Lazyman

Sort of like my spine. She keeps it locked up and I only get to use it on my birthday.


----------



## MikeB_UK

> LN used to have both too, but they may have discontinued the left version, who knows if that s indefinitely or just until they can figure out how to manage their new supply chain in this Covid world.
> 
> Gives me an impractical idea though… Who wants to make a spear point rabbet plane with removable plates on both sides (or with no removable plates like a normal rabbet block) ?
> 
> - Mosquito


It'd be a sod to sharpen Mos.
It'd be the opposite of a spear point, the edges would want to be further forward than the middle.









Maybe a double iron instead?


----------



## drsurfrat

ah, echoes of Sam Kinison


----------



## Mosquito

> It d be a sod to sharpen Mos.
> It d be the opposite of a spear point, the edges would want to be further forward than the middle.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe a double iron instead?
> 
> - MikeB_UK


Yeah, originally I was thinking a spear point would work better because of sharpening, and with the furthest forward point being in the center, it wouldn't have the issues of pulling the plan away from the edge it was working against. But then realized that it's not likely to be taking a full width cut very often, so it would probably still try to move it away from the edge.

The inverse like you show would have to be the way to go, and like you said, what a PITA to sharpen THAT would be lol


----------



## MikeB_UK

> Yeah, originally I was thinking a spear point would work better because of sharpening, and with the furthest forward point being in the center, it wouldn t have the issues of pulling the plan away from the edge it was working against. But then realized that it s not likely to be taking a full width cut very often, so it would probably still try to move it away from the edge.
> 
> The inverse like you show would have to be the way to go, and like you said, what a PITA to sharpen THAT would be lol
> 
> - Mosquito


Inline would work, but probably easier just having 2 planes.

Like this but alternate skewed


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Today my Lee valley plane stop should get here but won't get shop time until tomorrow so you have a day to beat me to it Nathan.

I'm also waiting on the hardware for my moxon vise but I was able to squeeze out the build this week. Completely over built and a couple dovetail specific features I don't see on others. I don't do project posts often but I'll do one on this once the hardware comes in and I can give it a test drive.


----------



## HokieKen

Total badassery Dave. The inlay is sexy as hell. So's that grain  The built-in "saddle square" is a nice feature. I don't ever recall having seen that before. Should be really handy for laying out the second side of DT joints.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Thanks Kenny. If I do that inlay again on something more meaningful than a shop fixture I'll probably eliminate the cactus from it. The eucalyptus on the mountains was perfect and resembled the lines like the ones we have here. The grain really helped symbolize the real deal.


----------



## HokieKen

I'll have to find some blue wood and try one of our mountains ;-)


----------



## KelleyCrafts

We have some like that too. I just chose the unique ones.


----------



## EarlS

> Today my Lee valley plane stop should get here but won't get shop time until tomorrow so you have a day to beat me to it Nathan.
> 
> I'm also waiting on the hardware for my moxon vise but I was able to squeeze out the build this week. Completely over built and a couple dovetail specific features I don't see on others. I don't do project posts often but I'll do one on this once the hardware comes in and I can give it a test drive.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - KelleyCrafts


Now you are just showing off - BTW you suck ;+)

that is really nice - did you use the Shaper Origin for the profile?

Here's an IA landscape:


----------



## KelleyCrafts

The origin did all of the work on the inlay and the holes cut for the moxon hardware per benchcrafted instructions.

The cool part is the hardware parts I could design all on tool so I didn't need a computer for that. The instructions called for a rectangle to house the nut and then a 3/4" hole behind that for the back piece and then a wide 3/4" tall rectangle for the front chop to be able to slide back and forth. All done just on the screen of the Origin. I did need a computer for the inlay of course.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Earl, Just realize you'll buy one of these in the future and ping me with any questions BUT you have to finish your bench AND your lathe first.


----------



## EarlS

> Earl, Just realize you'll buy one of these in the future and ping me with any questions BUT you have to finish your bench AND your lathe first.
> 
> - KelleyCrafts


Of course, I just need to convince myself that I want (I mean NEED) it. First off I actually need to get the Nova Viking DP. The PC DP I have is a real dog.


----------



## Bearcontrare

The various vise hardware folks are installing on their respective benches makes some very interesting reading. I'm enjoying seeing these and how they are being installed.
But, like some others here, they are WAY out of my budget. I bought an entire vintage leg vise at a flea market for $15, from a person who didn't know what it was. Made an end vise from some all-thread, a coupling nut, a fender washer and a plumbing tee, before finding a complete bench screw on Ebay for $25.
For those of us on limited budgets, a little shopping around and patience will uncover these gems.


----------



## controlfreak

> Here s an IA landscape:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - EarlS


That looks like a bitch to inlay, just saying.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Earl I have my eye on one of those DPs as well at some point. Love how easy it is to switch speeds for different materials and I do a lot of metal work as well so changing speeds and the tapping options are appealing.

Barry, you are ABSOLUTELY correct that there are cheaper ways to do things. No doubt about it. Nothing wrong with splurging on things either. To each their own on either front, I respect both sides of the fence.


----------



## CL810

Dave - WOW is all I have to say, WOW!


----------



## bandit571

Hmmm, this keeps up..I just MIGHT have to clean my bench up….someday..









Could be….


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Thanks Clayton. I really appreciate the compliment.

Don't clean it bandit!!! We're all used to seeing that dirty old thing and honestly every time I see that chisel rack in the back it tempts me so much to add something like that to mine. I like your bench buddy.


----------



## Lazyman

Very cool Dave. Even though I have a CNC, sometimes it is just easier to take the machine to the project. I am about to cut the mortises in the underside of the my bench and I would probably use the Origin for that. Still debating whether to use my router or go old school and whip out my mortising chisels. I used the chisels to make a mortise deeper on the leg that I cut on my CNC and it was actually kind of fun. So much better than trying to do that with bench chisels like I see so many YouTubers do. I think it has been years since I used those.

And because my bench top is going to be upside down while I do that, you are probably going to beat me to installing the LV bench stop.

I got the base basically fit together yesterday.









And spent this afternoon making cherry dowels for the drawbore step. 









That was a lot more work than I thought it would be.

I plan to drill the holes for the drawbore tomorrow so that I can test the base for squareness and then set it upside down on the bottom of the bench top to layout the mortises.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

That dowel maker is awesome. I've seen those before on some YouTube somewhere.

Thanks for the compliments Nathan. The instruction on the Lee Valley plane stop say to drill a 2" hole. The thing isn't 2" round. Wonder if I should do 2" or make it an exact fit. It's .02" smaller.


----------



## HokieKen

I'd probably make it an exact fit Dave. Otherwise you're gonna get sawdust in the gap.


----------



## HokieKen

Nathan, I learned to chop mortises using bench chisels on my bench. Was a well-learned lesson. Paul Sellers method worked well for me.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Agreed Kenny. I'll just come close and take a thousandth off and test fit after each cut until it's perfect.


----------



## Lazyman

I haven't done many mortises lately but I have been using bench chisels too after watching Paul Sellers technique. After using mortising chisels the other day I remembered how much easier it can be with a beefy mortising chisel, especially on deep mortises. These will be just over 3" deep and I think that the extra oomph might make it easier. I may try with both types of chisels. Not sure that I have ever cut one that was wider than the chisel though. I need to do a little research to see what difference that makes in the technique.

The jury is still out whether I am going to keep that dowel maker. It really is a lot more work than I expected. I am curious about how well the Veritas dowel maker works in comparison. I've got nearly a full set of cutters for the vintage one and for what they go for on eBay lately, I could probably buy the full set for the Veritas one and have money left over to buy a low angle jack too. Of course, its not like I use that many dowels and about half way through I started thinking it would probably be easier to to just make them on the lathe.

BTW, any dos or don'ts on drawboring. This'll be the first time I have used that technique.


----------



## DavePolaschek

> The jury is still out whether I am going to keep that dowel maker. It really is a lot more work than I expected.


What size dowel were you doing? Size matters.

Did you adjust the handle to make it easier? I can't tell for sure from your photo.

Do you have sharp cutters? They make a huge difference.

I bought new blades for all of the cutters on my Stanley 77 and they make a huge difference in the amount of effort needed. They're all the same size, so you can buy one and give it a try. It's also helpful to see the shape of a new one and how it works versus old ones that have been sharpened multiple times. I'm pretty sure I can resharpen the old ones now that I've seen what works.

If you do decide to liquidate it, I might be interested in the cutters for the odd sixteenths. I've got all the evens, and can't decide whether I need the odds or not, which means I probably do.


----------



## HokieKen

> …
> 
> BTW, any dos or don ts on drawboring. This ll be the first time I have used that technique.
> 
> - Lazyman


DO make the pegs long and cut them off afterwards. DO make sure your holes overlap. DO NOT figure on trying again if you screw up the first time. And most importantly, DO choose a wood that won't spliter or split when you beat it like it owes you money.


----------



## Lazyman

5/8", Dave. Cutter is sharp and I am getting a pretty nice finish. I tried a couple of different handle positions but by the time I did that my arm was already pretty tired. It could have something to do with making about 5' of dowels. I also found that doing a more severe chamfer on the full length of the corners not only made it easier but also gave me a better finish.

I bought several new cutters from the same source to replace missing or broken cutters and they weren't nearly as sharp as the old ones I didn't need to replace. I struggled with getting them sharp too because of the curved edge. I think that I finally got them sharp enough though, but that was a year ago so I will probably have to relearn how to sharpen them when it is time again. Also, compared to the old cutters the slot on the replacements for attaching the cutter to the head were too far back, which meant that the blade sits too far forward and the 5/8" was cutting about 1/16" too small. That also made it harder because I sized the blank for 5/8" so it was removing a lot more wood. When I switched out to an old cutter it is dead on and got easier to turn. I probably just need to file the hole out a little so sits in the right position. But that is another option for getting the odd 16ths. Just move the cutter in a bit and you'll get an undersized dowel though maybe not all the way down to the next 16th. Worth a try anyway.


----------



## Sylvain

> I remembered how much easier it can be with a beefy mortising chisel, especially on deep mortises.
> - Lazyman


Very important message from Paul Sellers: "work with sensitivity".
I always find it annoying when the chisel is nailed in the wood. It normally doesn't happen when properly using the Paul Sellers technique. (listen to the sound)



> Not sure that I have ever cut one that was wider than the chisel though. I need to do a little research to see what difference that makes in the technique.
> - Lazyman


making two parallel mortises and chopping the waste between them:

















Then the same is done on the other face to get a through mortise.
A narrow chisel penetrates more easily than a wider one.

note.: it was done with a 10 or 12 mm flea market bench chisel, while making a Moravian workbench.

I have found the double parallel mortise technique here:
https://hyvelbenk.wordpress.com/2014/03/16/hovelbenken-i-mariestad-er-pa-fotene/


----------



## controlfreak

I like making the guides that Paul Sellers recommends to insure the mortice is going in straight, they really help.


----------



## EarlS

When it comes to making mortises, give me a router and some mdf to make a template. I have a really nice set of *Narex mortise chisels* that I used one time (kind of) *if anyone is interested in them*.

My problem with hand tools are my hands and the assorted problems I have with them. Last year I had Carpal Tunnel surgery on both hands. I still have nerve problems (burning and tingly) if I do to much hand work. So I compensate with power tools as much as possible.

Nathan - here are my progress pictures. I managed to forget that the side of the front laminate board where the tail vise cavity is doesn't need glue. I will be cleaning up the dry Gorilla glue squeeze out then setting the tail vise guides. That looks to be a bit of an iterative process since Benchcrafted doesn't give many dimensions to make sure the guides are at the right depth relative to the screw. Of course, it doesn't help that I didn't exactly follow the plans for the tail vise cavity. I think there is a missing 3/16" or so somewhere in there.










Pinned the end cap centers










(anyone see familiar tools??)


----------



## DavePolaschek

> 5/8", Dave. Cutter is sharp and I am getting a pretty nice finish. I tried a couple of different handle positions but by the time I did that my arm was already pretty tired. It could have something to do with making about 5' of dowels. I also found that doing a more severe chamfer on the full length of the corners not only made it easier but also gave me a better finish.


Ok. With 5/8" I did about 2 feet of dowel at a crack. 5' would be a real workout, even with everything tuned.

And yeah, I've found that I'm a lot happier if I start with octagons rather than squares. And that's a pretty quick process for me, since I have a jig made of a couple chunks of tubafor that will hold a 3' long square piece of wood with a corner up. Take a few passes with a jack plane set heavy, rotate, repeat, and I've got an octagon.

I noticed that the new blades made a slightly smaller dowel, but it didn't seem undersized to me. The ones made with the older blade were just a hair big, so maybe it's because I was using ash and you were using cherry… I still haven't played with a lot of different woods yet. Hopefully soon. Maybe I'll do a bunch of decorative dowels for the doors of my brace till.

For drawboring, I practiced with bamboo kebab skewers a few times until I got a feel for how much I could offset the holes. As Kenny says, you need to be able to see light through the hole. Make sure to taper the pin so it can wiggle through that bend. Wet wood will snake through more easily than dry, but is more likely to have problems when you beat on it.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Looking good Earl. I'm loving this two bench build we have going. Nice mallet too! I ended up putting loctite on the head of mine, not sure if you experience it unscrewing a little but some blue loctite solves that quickly.


----------



## Sylvain

> I like making the guides that Paul Sellers recommends to insure the mortice is going in straight, they really help.
> - controlfreak


And when working from either side for deep through mortises, there is a better probability they will align in the middle.


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## EarlS

> Looking good Earl. I'm loving this two bench build we have going. Nice mallet too! I ended up putting loctite on the head of mine, not sure if you experience it unscrewing a little but some blue loctite solves that quickly.
> 
> - KelleyCrafts


I'll have to get some loctite. I noticed the brass end unscrewed a bit when I was pounding the dowels in. That mallet is my go-to mallet if something needs some persuasion. If it needs a lot of persuasion I get out the big one you made for me. And if I'm just tapping something delicate the little one works quite well.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Super glad to hear they get used. Not sure how it worked out that you have so many from me.


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## Lazyman

I read that waxing the dowels will help when driving them home. I was worried that making them wet would swell them up making them tighter for driving or shrinking after drying. Oh and I measured the net dowels and it was more like 7'. I need 12 dowels and they need to be between 5-6" long. The 2 for the leg tenons on the back may actually need to be a little longer as they may be inset a bit from the edge.

Thanks guys for the info on the wide mortise technique and the tip about the Sellers mortise guide.


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## Lazyman

Looking good Earl. I think that yours may look more like it was made by a craftsman and not like it was made by a hack like me. How deep are the mortises for the legs? From the picture they only look about an inch deep? BTW, I bought an extra long 1/2" router bit in case I need it for the leg mortise, if nothing else to clean up the sides a little. One reason I would prefer not using the router in the first place or even drilling out the waste is that I really don't like to square up corners afterwards. But who knows. After doing the first one I may change my mind on that.


----------



## CL810

Nathan, I wish I could remember how much offset I had when I drawbored my bench legs. I do remember wishing I had done less. Are you going to do a test with scraps first?


----------



## Lazyman

I wasn't planning to do a test, CL. I was planning to simply follow Chris Schwartz's recommendation of 1/8" offset for a 5/8" dowel. He also says that if you are having a problem to use a drawbore pin or a tapered reamer to deform the entry side of the hole in the tenon, neither of which I have. I am sure that I can figure out a way to open up the entry side a bit. If nothing else I can use a file or rasp or even a step drill bit. Hopefully, simply tapering the end of the dowel will be enough but I've got a backup plan if not.


----------



## controlfreak

On a humorous note I posted over on Paul Sellers site that I had reach a limit on how deep I could effectively chop a mortise that I wanted deeper. I asked myself "what would Paul do?" So I got out the brace & bit to remove the deeper waste. It worked well for me but Paul replied "I hate that and would never do it"


----------



## Lazyman

Did he offer any advise?


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## HokieKen

I used 3/32 offset for my 1/2" pegs for drawboring. The main thing is to make sure you have enough taper on the end is long and tapers down enough to make it through without cracking.


----------



## CL810

Finally have enough caffeine in me to remember Mike Pekovich's tip for drawboring. First drill the hole through the piece with a mortise. Then use a brad point bit 1/16" less in diameter. Insert the tenon and use the smaller drip bit to mark the location of the hole in the tenon. This gives you a 1/32" offset. In his book Foundations of Woodworking, he uses making a very stout dining table legs for his example of this.

I suspect that the better the joint fits, the less of an offset you need.

So there you go Nathan - 1/8", 3/32", or 1/32 - take your pick! ;-)


----------



## HokieKen

Actually now that Andy jogs my memory, my offset was only 1/16" I think. IIRC, I offset the center 3/32 but then drilled the hole 1/32 larger than the peg. I figured the larger hole would allow for any variance in height or parallelism of holes sine I was drilling them by hand and eyeballing alignment. 1/8" seems like an excessive offset but that SYP should have enough elasticity to handle it without snapping your pegs.


----------



## HokieKen

Your bench is coming along nicely Earl. That hammer looks like a POS but that knife looks like one fine piece of work ;-)


----------



## controlfreak

The offset doesn't need to be much, I usually see about a sixteenth to an eighth. Probably depends on the size of the joint.


----------



## DonBroussard

I think I did a 1/16" offset for 3/8" dowels. It's been about 10 years so I might be misremembering.


----------



## KentInOttawa

> The offset doesn t need to be much, I usually see about a sixteenth to an eighth. Probably depends on the size of the joint.
> 
> - controlfreak


Definitely. I found this pdf about drawboring in North American timber framing, and it states that offsets of up to 3/8" were used with larger pages in larger timbers.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

The drawbored pegs in the legs of my bench were about 1/16" as well, which I felt was plenty at the time. Point the dowel, as kenny says, so it doesn't catch while running it through.


----------



## EarlS

I had to drill the pin for the end cap from the top and bottom. So there is a slight lip somewhere in the middle that I had to bang thru so I'm going to call it a drawbore. Probably 3\64.

Dave - you got my name on a mallet swap and another swap too. I also have the metal version of the dice mallet you made for me. I don't use it much because it is too cool to bang up.

Nathan - the mortises are only about an inch. If I would have been paying attention I would have made thru tenons for the legs.

I found the missing 1/4 inch in the tail vise cavity. I'll be putting a filler strip in on the interior side of the cavity so the guide rail has a full 3/4" rabbet to sit on. Oops


----------



## Lazyman

> ...
> *1/8" seems like an excessive offset* but that SYP should have enough elasticity to handle it without snapping your pegs.
> 
> - HokieKen


I wonder if that is why Schwartz uses the drawbore pin or tapered reamer to deform one side of the hole in the tenon?


----------



## HokieKen

Very possibly Nathan. As long as your M&Ts are a good fit. I don't see why you would want that much interference. But I guess if you used a drawbore reamer beforehand, it reduces the effective interference but still pulls the joint up a little tighter?


----------



## EarlS

I put some lipstick on the pig (or at least the underside)










Watco black walnut to stain the white oak and also seal it. Tomorrow the beast will get flipped over (hopefully for the last time) and I can finish sanding the top and get the dog block installed. I might even get the tail vise blog written.

A big Thanks to Nathan for shaming me into getting moving ;+P


----------



## Lazyman

Looks pretty nice, Earl.

Btw, 1\8" was definitely too much offset for the drawbore. Maybe the cherry doesn't have enough flex. I went 3/32 but 1/16 would have been fine too.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Looking mighty nice Earl!

Well Nathan I beat you to it but yours will turn out better than mine. I lost control of a forstner bit while not paying attention and had to think of a quick fix. Then I messed up the grain direction of my quick fix so it is what it is now.


----------



## Lazyman

Hah! I actually kind of like that idea. I might do it on purpose-with the grain pointed in the right direction. 

Next time just use the Origin to do the counter sink (or to redo it).

Just curious…did you think about just using that dog hole? I would have been tempted though its not as easy to make a countersink around an existing hole.


----------



## HokieKen

You should inlay a Texas star around yours Nathan. I have to agree, I like the look on Dave's. I would have done it on purpose if I had thought about it. And I wouldn't really give the grain orientation on the inlay piece much thought.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

I totally could have used that dog hole. Half way through the cutting I wish I had actually.

The origin did all the work but I needed a forstner bit to make the 1" hole deeper. That's where I screwed up. Set the drill down and it was still kind of spinning and it hit the edge of the larger hole. Stupid mistake. I guess now it's a happy mistake. Definitely do a Texas flag. Maybe I should redo it into something bigger.


----------



## HokieKen

Nah Dave. I think your bench was in need of a butthole anyway.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

It always has an asshole standing next to it so why not right?


----------



## rad457

> I totally could have used that dog hole. Half way through the cutting I wish I had actually.
> 
> The origin did all the work but I needed a forstner bit to make the 1" hole deeper. That's where I screwed up. Set the drill down and it was still kind of spinning and it hit the edge of the larger hole. Stupid mistake. I guess now it's a happy mistake. Definitely do a Texas flag. Maybe I should redo it into something bigger.
> 
> - KelleyCrafts


Craftsmen do not make mistakes! Design alteration perhaps? Which reminds me that there is a gouge in a dog hole 
in my bench that requires some alteration


----------



## EarlS

Looks spiffy Dave, mistake or not. Seems like some of the stuff that looks the best results from covering up a mistake.

I think you have me hooked on getting one. However, I can't find it on Lee Valley's site.

P.S. Never mind - I found it under bench stop. I was looking for planing stop.


----------



## controlfreak

That underside looks amazing Earl, can't wait to see the top.

I think you are at the point that some makers don't really think about, "now how am I gonna flip this fish".


----------



## KelleyCrafts

I don't think Lee valley sells the Origin Earl. 

Bench Stop


----------



## EarlS

Dave - no wonder I couldn't find it.

Ordered the bench stop along with a hold down for the deadman and a shorter post for it.

You need some of these or these


----------



## Lazyman

Those metal dogs scare me. I would inevitably crash a hand plane into them and then spend the next 30 minutes grinding a new bevel on it.


----------



## HokieKen

I debated between brass and wood dogs and eventually decided on wood just because of that Nathan. But in 5 years I have yet to clip one with a plane. I have yet to break one either though so no regerts.


----------



## Sylvain

Draw boring by Paul Sellers:
1/16th offset in that example.




1/16th up to 1/2" for timber frame.


----------



## Lazyman

I don't know. He said 1/16th but the mark he made looked like more to me, compared to the 8 that I did yesterday. LOL.

Perhaps the most interesting thing to me that he showed was using a washer as a makeshift dowel plate to make his peg for the joint.


----------



## EarlS

Nathan - are you done with the drawboring yet? Post some pictures if you have them.

I'm done for the day. I have to let the Gorilla glue set up before I can do much more. I also found out that the leg mortises are about 1/4" short so I have to flip the beast back over and take a little more out of them. I thought I made them deep enough that they would be ok after the top was flattened. Guess I should have checked them one last time before flipping it.

The missing 1/4" showed up again while I was working on the dog block that does on the tail vise carriage. Because I didn't pay strict attention to the plans, the vise screw is 1/4" into the dog slot which means the dog block needs to be modified. The dog strip and slot should have been 1-1/2" from the front edge. Since the front laminate board is only 1-1/4", the screw is 1/4" closer to the front. The carriage has a hole machined out for the dog to slip into as long as the dog block is in the right spot. I may also need to glue a 1/4" strip into the slot to cover the screw, or make a rabbet on the side of the dog block and leave it an extra 1/4" wide.

While I'm at it, the dog slot is too long so the carriage runs off the end before the block hits the dog strip. I must have missed the details in the instructions and plans. That will require a block to be glued onto the end of the dog strip to shorten up the slot. I kind of made a mess out of the whole thing. Thankfully, there is glue and plenty of scraps to fix things.


----------



## HokieKen

This is the way Earl. Following plans always causes problems ;-)


----------



## EarlS

> This is the way Earl. Following plans always causes problems ;-)
> 
> - HokieKen


Exactly my point


----------



## Lazyman

That's why I make my own plans, even though I may have copied someone else's.

I finished drawboring the stretchers and I will do the ones in the top after I cut those mortises. Here is the offset of one of them.









I couldn't hold it tight using one hand to take the picture and the other a flashlight so it is probably offset a little less than it looks here. I managed to screw up a few times. I tried using a hand drill and a simple squaring jig to drill the first one and it was so slanted I had to glue a plug in it an redo it. I used the drill press for the rest of them. On another one I used the wrong stretcher so had to plug that tenon. The biggest screw up was drilling on the wrong side of the leg so it didn't pass through the mortise. I kept wondering why I hadn't passed through the mortise yet so one leg will have 2 symmetric plugs on it. This why I got a C in the chemistry lab in college. I aced the class final but I could not complete the steps properly on a lab experiment to save my life.

I partially put the pegs in so I could lay out the mortise locations today. 

















I need to figure out what to do about at least one of the dog holes that will be partically obscured by the shoulders so that I can push the dog up from the bottom. In this case my plans had them offset correctly but I changed the spacing slightly when I made it which moved a couple underneath the leg. I might have to drill a hole so I can use a screw driver or something to push them up.


----------



## MikeB_UK

Cut a couple of open mortises in the top of the leg to clear the dog holes, from the back if you want them hidden, from the side if you want to push the dogs up easier.


----------



## EarlS

The Benchcrafted plans had the first dog hole in the middle of the front right leg tenon. Their solution was to bore a hole thru the tenon and then drill a finger hole in the front of the leg. The more I thought about it, the less I wanted to cut out the middle of the tenon for a dog hole. Yesterday, I plugged that dog hole and every other one down the length of the bench. My logic - Why do you need dog holes spaced at 6" intervals if the tail vise has 13" of run out? Instead of 13 dog holes there are 6 plus the one in the tail vise carriage.

I also noticed that Nathan's dog holes are set back from the front edge further than mine. The Benchrafted plans have the dog holes about 1-3/4" off the front edge. In retrospect, I think having them set back further, like Nathan's would be a better approach since you can center the board on the dogs rather than having them offset to the front.

Nathan - I'm intrigued the hexagonal storage cabinets in the background. Did you post a project for them?


----------



## Lazyman

I originally had the dog holes closer to the front but moved them in one board of the lamination just so that they would not line up with the tenons. I originally had them so that at least a little of the first one would be only partially covered by the the shoulder but when I cut the dog strip to length I think that I must have either turned it around or cut off the wrong end when trimming to length-or both.

Yeah Earl, those hexagonal bins were the very first project I posted the day I joined Lumberjocks. It may still be the favorite thing that I have built. If I were building another I would use an alternative approach that I came up with later when I was helping someone else build one.


----------



## HokieKen

I've always wondered why people put the dog holes that close to the front. Mine are about 4" in and work well there.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

I'll guess at that Kenny. I'm thinking it's because back in the day tail vises like mine were pretty normal and those are only so thick so having them in a couple of inches is half the chop of the tail vise. Maybe the wagon vise which I think is a newer design just kept it for some reason?


----------



## HokieKen

Yeah, wagon/tail/end vise does have some affect Dave. Good point. I think that I remember that in one book or the other, Schwarz said to put them close to the front so you can put boards against the front edge for using fenced tools like molding planes and such. And I guess that makes sense if you use your 45 on a regular basis. But for me, 90% of the time if something is clamped between dogs it's because I'm using a bench plane or scraping/sanding. And in those cases, I like to have the dogs centered on the board as much as possible. Especially with thinner stock when I don't want to use a lot of clamping pressure to avoid bowing the stock. With light pressure and the dogs not centered, the work can move on me due to the dogs rotating. I guess square dogs might help with that. In hindsight though, I probably would have been fine with them about 3" from the front but probably no closer. I have no regret with having them 4" though.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

In most of our cases it probably doesn't matter much. Mine are about 2.5" iirc but that was mainly dictated by my tail vise which I love so of course no regrets. Not just boards but I clamp all my bench jigs between the dogs too. Even the shaper workstation. The dogs are used more than the leg vise.


----------



## Lazyman

I just remembered the other reason I moved my dogs in a row. I didn't want that corner where the wagon vise is just supported by a single board on the front and the end cap. I figured 2 boards laminated together were less likely to warp and the extra thickness would couldn't hurt with strength if I puts something heavy on the corner someday, especially with the SYP.

I have to say though. I have only had 1 board warp significantly after running through the planer. I cut it in half and used it for the legs. Another developed a slight bow and it was used for the shorts stretchers. After cutting it down, it only took a minute with a hand plane to make it flat before laminating the short stretchers.

I thought about just plugging (or not cutting it in the first place) the first dog hole that intersects with the leg but one reason that I decided to leave it there is that it will come in handy when using a hand plane on very sort pieces. Clamping those our just using a stop can be a pain, especially if they are fairly thin too.


----------



## HokieKen

That makes sense if you clamp bench jigs there too. I usually try to make my bench jigs so they're secured with holdfasts. Which means I mount them on whatever piece of scrap plywood I have handy ;-)


----------



## HokieKen

Maybe you can make a pop-up button to raise that dog Nathan?


----------



## HokieKen

Or you could just embed a rare earth magnet near the top of it with a piece of veneer over it and use a piece of steel to lift it.


----------



## Lazyman

I saw that pop-up button idea when I was researching dogs and I like the magnet idea. I've thought about using a push to open cabinet latch in the bottom of the hole too. I might be able to simply drop one into the bottom of the hole and size the dog so that it just barely sticks up enough to grab it when deployed.


----------



## EarlS

Nathan - thanks for the link. I just added it to my favorites so I can find it again. I like it a lot more than the flimsy plastic units I'm using currently. Plus it looks like it would be an interesting build.

Back to the topic at hand - I probably should have moved the tail vise back one row so there would have been more than just a 1-1/4" board. Of course, I doubt it will get cranked down really tight since the main purpose of the tail vise seems to be to hold a board in place, not to clamp boards together or something like that which would require a lot more force.

I just realized I still need to cut the slot for the dead man on the bottom of the top. Another item to do when I flip the top back over tonight.

As for holdfasts, I'm going to use the bench for a while before I drill holes for them. I also need to figure out a good spot for the bench stop that Dave talked me into.

The rare earth magnet idea might be a good option to avoid losing space under the top to accommodate the dogs. I haven't even got the bench built and I'm changing all kinds of things.


----------



## HokieKen

> I saw that pop-up button idea when I was researching dogs and I like the magnet idea. I ve thought about using a push to open cabinet latch in the bottom of the hole too. I might be able to simply drop one into the bottom of the hole and size the dog so that it just barely sticks up enough to grab it when deployed.
> 
> - Lazyman


I've seen that method too Nathan. It would be the least amount of work so I'd do that one ;-)


----------



## HokieKen

> ...
> 
> The rare earth magnet idea might be a good option to avoid losing space under the top to accommodate the dogs. I haven t even got the bench built and I m changing all kinds of things.
> 
> - EarlS


You still have to leave space if you're going to use holdfasts and they will need more clearance than your dogs. And if you work with metal much at all, particularly filing and sharpening, you don't want to incorporate too many magnets into your bench ;-)


----------



## KelleyCrafts

I have the prairie dogs from Veritas in the holes in my vise and at the legs that aren't through holes which are essentially the push to open cabinet matches mounted to the bottom of a dog so you could got that route with your square ones Nathan.

Earl, the bench stop is all Nathan, I didn't know that particular one existed before Nathan posted it.

I still need to build my deadman and will soon. There's been twice now I wish I had it. Surprised really. Didn't think I would need it much but I think it would get used.


----------



## Lazyman

Most people seem to put a bench stop in line with the dog strip after the last dog hole.

I marked a line where the deadman groove needs to be with a Sharpie last night to remind me to cut that before I flip it over and mount it on the legs. Now what was that other thing I need to remember to do before I flip it over?

I've never really paid attention to how the deadman is made. Do you usually make a tongue and groove (centered tongue about 1/3 the width) or just a rabbet (at 50% of thickness)?

Also, can one of you tell me if the Stanlely # 203 BENCH BRACKET is designed for 3/4" thick deadman or what the thickest they might work in. I would like to get one some day but in the last month or two the prices have gotten crazy on eBay: $100+. I might need to see if I can make one or have my buddy with a welder help me make it.


----------



## controlfreak

I placed my dog holes in line with the wagon vise where my plans showed it without thinking about it. Turns out the PDF shows the holes 4" apart but not how far from the edge. Just judging from the scale it looks like about 2 1/2". I think I arrived at that distance as it was as close as I could get the wagon vise to the front edge. A few holes are over the legs so I am careful not to bury the dog in the hole.

I have been thinking a lot about adding a planning stop and was about to get the MF replica. That was until I saw one I can make to mount on my vise and use a dog to support the far end. I am starting to want to make my work holding and tools where possible.


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## KelleyCrafts

Nathan the Stanley 203 is made to work on boards that are 7/8" thick per Stanley. Would be a pretty tight fit without some filing imo. I'll still probably do my deadman at 7/8" and adjust the clamp accordingly.


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## HokieKen

Those 203 clamps have been pretty spendy for a long time now Nathan. It's gonna take a whole lotta patience to find one much cheaper than that. I'd personally be inclined to make the deadman from 8/4 stock and use holdfasts in it.


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## HokieKen

I've been thinking about making a copy of the Millers Falls bench stop too CF. Mostly because the MF version is hard to find and I have a ton of metal bar stock laying around that needs to be used up. In terms of time/money, I'd be better off to just buy the LV one but I've never made an expanding sleeve like that so it may be fun to roll my own


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## KelleyCrafts

With my cabinet under the bench Kenny I don't have room for a 2" deadman. I planned my deadman and bench layout for the deadman around this clamp.

I have two Nathan. Wanna trade something? No clue what I want/need though.


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## HokieKen

If you have storage under there, a holdfast wouldn't work anyway I guess. Personally, I've decided I don't need the deadman. So far I've gotten by with just having holdfast holes in the leg opposite my leg vise. If push came to shove, I could just rig up a temporary slave. It's worth it to me to have unfettered access to the shelf down there.


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## EarlS

IIRC - the wood whisperer or someone like that made the storage cabinet and stored the deadman on top of it when not in use. There be enough space for a holdfast? Otherwise, the Veritas Hold Down can also be retrofitted to a "5-1/2 post. I grabbed one when I ordered the bench stop Dave cajoled me into purchasing.


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## Lazyman

> With my cabinet under the bench Kenny I don't have room for a 2" deadman. I planned my deadman and bench layout for the deadman around this clamp.
> 
> I have two Nathan. Wanna trade something? No clue what I want/need though.
> 
> - KelleyCrafts


Not sure that I have anything you'd need, much less want.


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## KelleyCrafts

Not sure how I landed the blame for that Earl. Nathan's fault. I didn't even know it existed two weeks ago. That one in particular that is.

I actually copied the cabinet the wood whisperer did. Looked handy. Not sure how tall his is but I made it so I could fit my shaper workstation under it and the new moxon vise will fit as well and it still takes holdfasts just fine. The deadman can go under the bench easy enough.


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## KelleyCrafts

I have an idea Nathan. I'll let you know in a few days. Plan your deadman accordingly.


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## EarlS

Dave - I'm definitely blaming you for making the cool inlay ring around the bench stop. Since I wanted the cool inlay ring, I have to get the bench stop. See the logic? So, yeah, it's got to be your fault. ;+) I'm sure Kenny and Nathan will agree with me.

I will need to look at the SketchUp plans for the cabinet and see how tall it is.


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## KelleyCrafts

Fine I'll take the blame but you have to get at least one bench plane and learn how to use it and sharpen it so you can use that plane stop.


----------



## HokieKen

Shhhh. Don't tell Earl he doesn't need a bench stop for power tools. That way when he figures it out, I'll mention that I like it and he'll send it to me. ;-p


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## rad457

People! I thought it was Always Kenny's Fault He better hope my Wife never finds him!
I made 2 sliding deadmans (men) After the abuse I got about all the holes in mine, one Maple one Walnut.


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## KelleyCrafts

I missed the abuse let Andre. What did you do on the first build vs second? I'll probably start mine soon.


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## rad457

Much narrower, about half the width,(and much fewer holes) but have noticed the wider one is more stable in actual use. Drilled a couple of holes in the far leg to store the hold fasts when not in use and have found they actually get more use in that area for some reason.
I use some of these 95% of the time.https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/tools/workshop/workbenches/benchtop-accessories/69837-veritas-planing-stop


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## KelleyCrafts

I would think the wider deadman would be better for exactly what you said but I have some drawers in my bench that I want access to. Still the bench is wide enough to slide it side to side or just take the deadman out. I'll have to figure out a good size/design here really soon. Maybe that's what I should be doing instead of messing around on the couple threads I post on.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Definitely love low profile cabinet under the bench. Doesn't interfere w/ anything at all.










Got lucky w/ those No. 203s; found the pair on craigslist, both for $10.


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## EarlS

Dave - I will try to remember to take some pictures tonight of the deadman plans for a starting point for your design.


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## KelleyCrafts

Mine is extremely similar Smitty. I totally agree it's worth it. Looks nice too.

Thanks Earl, I have the sizes for the slot and riding the tail of course. Just curious what size the deadman should be I guess. I do have a decent idea of where I'm going with it but the plans can't hurt to see what you have going.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Dave, a close-up look at my deadman.



















Holes for 203 are 1", every other one is 3/4" to fit stops, pups, etc. as used on the benchtop. Deadman is 3/4" thick to support 203's max anchor span.


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## HokieKen

As usual, somebody mentions Stanley and it's like a bat signal for Smitty ;-) Gotta give you a YOU SUCK for that deal on the 203 clamps too bud.


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## KelleyCrafts

Smitty I could swear I read somewhere that the 203's were made for 7/8" homes. Really good to know it's 3/4 which makes sense when I measured the gap. You paid attention to that Nathan right??

I also like the 1" and 3/4" holes. That's a phenomenal idea that I will definitely steal.

I was thinking of doing a simple curved shape like what you have and just two rows of holes so I think I'm on the right track. I'll have to spend some time milling some stock and get this one banged out and then I think I can officially call the bench done.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Dave, 1" is for the 203s. 3/4" is for these things.


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## KelleyCrafts

Figured as much. Thanks a ton for the info.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop




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## Lazyman

Got it. Thanks!


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## EarlS

Dave - I almost forgot. Here is the deadman detail


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## KelleyCrafts

Thank you Earl!


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## EarlS

Hopefully it is legible


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## KelleyCrafts

It is. Mainly looking at the width. Obviously the height varies from bench to bench.


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## rad457

I made sure mine were a good 2" thick for the hold fasts?


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## controlfreak

Now I want a deadman. Ploughing the groove at the top is not a problem but I am trying to wrap my head around how to get a runner attached.


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## EarlS

CF - make a mortise that runs the full length of the bottom rail, then make a runner strip with a tenon on the bottom.


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## KelleyCrafts

Andre, I'll be using a Stanley 203 clamp which doesn't work in 2" thick material. I'll use dogs and other things as well if needed. Holdfasts are stored in the opposite leg as the leg vise so if I do something long enough I can use a hold fast there. Also a holdfast wouldn't work with the cabinet I have under the bench in certain spots.


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## HokieKen

> Now I want a deadman. Ploughing the groove at the top is not a problem but I am trying to wrap my head around how to get a runner attached.
> 
> - controlfreak


When I built my bench, I was undecided on whether I wanted one so I had a plan to add one later if I decided I needed it. I was just going to make 2 v-shaped guide strips like at the bottom of this one:









and attach them at top and bottom with screws. You'd have to remove one strip to remove the deadman so it's not as flexible as having a deep mortise on the benchtop so you can just lift it out. But it's an easy retrofit to a bench that doesn't have the mortise cut in.


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## Sylvain

> Now I want a deadman. [...] I am trying to wrap my head around how to get a runner attached.
> 
> - controlfreak


Just glue it or keep it in place with 3 or 4 dowels. There is not much effort on it if one just use it for additional support to the vise.

edit: seing Hokieken comment,
If one doesn't glue the dowels in the stretcher, it is easily removable. (gluing them only in the runner)
That is what I have done for the rear fence of the shelf under my P.S. workbench, so it can be knocked down without tool if needed.


----------



## Sylvain

> You d have to remove one strip to remove the deadman so it s not as flexible as having a deep mortise on the benchtop so you can just lift it out. But it s an easy retrofit to a bench that doesn't have the mortise cut in.
> 
> - HokieKen


Retrofitting the top for the Moravian workbench with a groove is not a problem as it is easily knocked down.
Of course it is another story for a massive Roubo.


----------



## Mosquito

I was also unsure about the deadman on my workbench, so thought the same as Kenny. I have yet to add one in 9+ years, but I did add two dog holes in my rear leg for storing my holdfasts, and do occasionally use the holdfasts there to either hold a board or hold a block to support a board.

Downside is you have to take the couple of lumps on the knee to train the instincts to avoid them


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## HokieKen

Yep and I'm not about to flip my Oak Roubo over to mill a groove ;-p


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## CL810

Here's another example of an attached guide strip for the deadman. I placed at the far end a section that can be easily removed so the deadman can be taken out. Which, of course, I've never had to do in 8 years.


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## theoldfart

Yup, guide strip and groove.

I did counter sinks on my thick deadman to allow for the 203's.


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## Lazyman

Smitty, 
Did you use a toothing plane to give your deadman some grip or something or just didn't smooth it since its the backside of it?


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## KelleyCrafts

> Yup, guide strip and groove.
> 
> I did counter sinks on my thick deadman to allow for the 203's.
> 
> - theoldfart


I seriously thought of the countersinks this morning when I saw how thick Clayton's was and was holding a 203. Definitely a good way to go. Not sure why I didn't think of it before seeing it.

Great info guys!


----------



## CL810

There are times when you will want the 203 as close as possible to the bench top. With a removable section of the guide stip you remove the deadman without raising the deadman up into the groove. This allows you to have the top hole closer to the bench top.

This may seem inconsequential but inches matter, just ask Ken. ;-)


----------



## HokieKen




----------



## Lazyman

> Those 203 clamps have been pretty spendy for a long time now Nathan. It s gonna take a whole lotta patience to find one much cheaper than that. I d personally be inclined to make the deadman from 8/4 stock and use holdfasts in it.
> 
> - HokieKen


I guess I should have bid on that one that went for $35 a couple of months ago.



> I have an idea Nathan. I'll let you know in a few days. Plan your deadman accordingly.
> 
> - KelleyCrafts


Now you've got my curiosity up.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop

The latter - backside of the deadman = don't care.


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## KelleyCrafts

I didn't make my bottom strip removable. Wish I had now because I don't want the tongue at the top to be longer than necessary. Maybe I'll attempt to cut a pieces out that I can slide the deadman on, with in glued down I don't foresee that going well. I need to think this one through.


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## CL810

My deadman was too thick for the 203 so I used my router to create a vertical groove on one side. I left one side thicker for my holdfasts. Best of both worlds I believe.


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## KelleyCrafts

I knew you had some kind of relief back there.


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## Lazyman

> I didn't make my bottom strip removable. Wish I had now because I don't want the tongue at the top to be longer than necessary. Maybe I'll attempt to cut a pieces out that I can slide the deadman on, with in glued down I don't foresee that going well. I need to think this one through.
> 
> - KelleyCrafts


I wonder if it would still be stable enough if you just shave the peak off the strip so that it would take a little less movement upward to remove it?

It just occurred to me that the tongue on the deadman needs to be narrow enough compared to the groove so that you can tilt it a little in the groove. Any thoughts from anyone about how much clearance is needed?


----------



## HokieKen

That depends on several things Nathan. Width of slot, length of tongue, length of deadman, distance from benchtop to stretcher, how far back the the groove is, etc. I might be inclined to fit the tongue to the deadman with a sliding dovetail. That way you could have a tight fit but still have the deadman removable by just sliding the tongue out.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

That's not a bad idea Kenny.


----------



## rad457

I routed the top channel deeper in a spot close the the vise so that the deadman could be lifted of the bottom track?
Front half of the bench is about 5 1/2" thick, if bench was only 2" might be a concern. 
When I want to lock deadman in place (very seldom pound the holdfast on the bottom, make any sense?


----------



## HokieKen

Looks like some block planes would be mighty unhappy if you pounded a holdfast at the bottom Andre ;-)


----------



## controlfreak

Good ideas, I can lift the top to install and remove if needed so I will make the fit snug enough to resist coming out of the groove if I strike up to release the holdfast.


----------



## EarlS

> Yep and I m not about to flip my Oak Roubo over to mill a groove ;-p
> 
> - HokieKen


I'll let you know how it goes when I do it tonight.


----------



## HokieKen

Unless you've already attached your top, it should go a lot easier than it would for me ;-)


----------



## EarlS

Fortunately, I'm a slacker and haven't got that far yet. It was supposed to be the last thing I did on Sunday night but I quit early so it didn't get done. While making dinner, I realized I needed to cut the slot for the deadman into the top.

I also need to adjust with the tail vise rails and carriage. It isn't sliding as smoothly as it should now that the dog block is installed. I think the rails might not be quite parallel. The end of the screw flops around like a fish when I retract the carriage. It also makes quite a racket, probably because the carriage is lurching about in the rail slot.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

That sucks Earl. Might take a bit to sort that out. Would be tough to adjust the two parallel boards, maybe just the dog that moves needs adjusted? For any tips you'll have to ask others with that wagon vise. I happily went with a real man's tail vise.


----------



## EarlS

I will get some calipers and check the distance between the rails. I know the front is off a bit so it probably transferred into the front rail for the vise.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Here it is.










I'll do a write up when I do some dovetails. I'm to lazy today to prep some boards but I couldn't wait to run a saw over something in it.

Initial thoughts, this is much higher than anything I've had in the past. I think I really like it but the jury is out until I get some time under my belt with it.

First few cuts weren't even close to square to the edge but after a handful the last ones were plenty close enough to make some dovetails.










We'll see how things go with this but already my back stays pretty much straight up and down, use only my arm to move the saw so I think this will elevate some back pain cutting dovetails when my back is at just the right angle to hurt without it.


----------



## HokieKen

Well y'all have inspired me to action! Let's get this damn x-link installed!









Or, at a minimum, finish that beer back there and go watch TV…


----------



## KelleyCrafts

That beer looks good but I know it's some trendy nasty IPA stuff so it won't be. Might as well finish the X link. I think we are all inspired by Earl and Nathan to finish the last of the bench stuff we decided not to get to.


----------



## HokieKen

Well sunuvabich. My leg vise chop is too damn short. By more than an inch. That's a real kick in the nards.


----------



## HokieKen

And yes it is a very good beer!


----------



## KelleyCrafts

How far off the ground does the chop sit as is now?


----------



## HokieKen

I have a good 8" between the floor and the bottom of the chop. So a new chop will work. But I like this chop. I'll sort it out later. Definitely not making any modifications tonight though.


----------



## EarlS

I skipped the shop time and went straight to drinking some beer. It's working out pretty well so far tonight.


----------



## HokieKen

I should have done the same Earl. Would have gotten the same amount accomplished…


----------



## Lazyman

Good thing you had an IPA in the shop with you then, Kenny. At least all was not lost. I decided to skip the beer tonight and take an Aleve instead. I was mighty soar after standing at my bench all afternoon with mallet.

I've got 2 of my leg mortises chopped. One is fit and the other I'll do fine tuning tomorrow. About 2" down on the first one I was thinking maybe 2 - 2.5" is really enough-much easier to cut the tenon shorter. It probably would be but I persevered. 









I tried using a bench chisel like Paul Sellers recommends but I found them to be too wimpy even in pine and with 3" deep mortises I don't think my bench chisels would be long enough anyway. Even my mortising chisels are short compared to the ones I see used in demos. It was much more difficult to keep the bench chisels registered against the sides and the long bevel provides a better fulcrum for leveraging out the waste without bruising the ends of the mortise. I switched from the 1/2" mortise chisel to 3/8 for the second row on the second mortise and found it was much easier to control. 









As you can see, the wider chisel had more of a tendency to twist on me as I drove it it.

My mortising technique really sucks but as I was chopping the second one today, I had an aha moment. I do not remember ever reading or hearing anyone point this out but it occurred to me that the sharp 90° corners on the sides of a mortise chisel is actually sort of a cutting edge in addition to keeping the chisel registered in the groove you have already cut. As you chop down and the bevel moves the chisel in the direction away from the bevel, those sharp corners actually help to sever the wood on the sides. As you lever out the waste, that also acts to clean out the sides with sort of a scraping action. Before I figured that out, I thought to myself that these chisels would be a lot more comfortable to handle if I ease these corners some. Good thing I was too lazy to stop and do that.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Looking good Nathan.


----------



## Lazyman

I forgot to mention that the knot visible on the edge in that first picture was a PITA. I paid attention to the grain direction for planing and made sure there weren't knots on the top but didn't think about where I would have to chop mortises. There was an even worse knot on the far side of that mortise too.


----------



## bandit571

Maybe one of these would be of use in them deeper mortises…


----------



## Lazyman

That's a nice collection, Bandit. I am sure that my problem is not my tools but just my technique. I haven't done many mortise in lately and never any this deep or wider than the chisel.

Here are 3 of my set of mortising chisels. 









I bought them and the bench chisels too ashamed to show its face behind them 30 something years ago after reading an article about cutting mortises and tenons in Fine Woodworking. I spent all I could afford on them at the time and it seemed like a fortune back then. This was part of my first short foray into hand tools but I didn't really know what I was doing and YouTube hadn't been invented yet. It was hard to pick up the nuances from a magazine article and didn't know anyone who could show me. Heck, I was using a Workmate for a bench back then. It is actually a pretty nice set.


----------



## EarlS

My hands, wrists, back, and shoulder hurt just thinking about spending an afternoon beating on a chisel.

Here's my solution - power tools. Get a plunge router, make a template and go to town. You could also use a drill with a forstner bit (I'm not a fan of spade bits) to get out the bulk of the material then clean things up with the router (or a chisel, I suppose). Plus then you don't have to sharpen the chisel.

I'm waiting for the Roy Underhill and the hand tool folks to show up outside the shop tonight with pitchforks and torches. ;+)


----------



## Sylvain

> I had an aha moment. I do not remember ever reading or hearing anyone point this out but it occurred to me that the sharp 90° corners on the sides of a mortise chisel is actually sort of a cutting edge in addition to keeping the chisel registered in the groove you have already cut. As you chop down and the bevel moves the chisel in the direction away from the bevel, those sharp corners actually help to sever the wood on the sides. As you lever out the waste, that also acts to clean out the sides with sort of a scraping action.
> - Lazyman


Paul Sellers would pare the mortises for fine work but I have seen a video where, after chopping the mortise, he drags the chisel in a left-right-left-... movement to scrap the fuzziness.

here at about 16'19":


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Earl, not all of us are full on galoot. If I were doing the mortises Nathan was doing I would drill out what I could and clean them out with a chisel. Nothing wrong with power tools just some things are more relaxing/fun with hand tools and in some cases hand tools are just a better/quicker option. I like my shop quiet so I'll lean to the hand tool side but there's no way I'm taking AZ wood slabs from rough sewn to usable boards with hand tools. That just sounds miserable.


----------



## Sylvain

> My hands, wrists, back, and shoulder hurt just thinking about spending an afternoon beating on a chisel.
> - EarlS


You have explained your carpal tunnel problem.
I nevertheless will point out that brute force is not the way to go with hand tools.
"Work with sensitivity" is Paul Sellers' motto.


----------



## EarlS

In all honesty, I'd like to learn how to use more hand tools. Sadly, after carpal tunnel surgery on both hands I still have a lot of nerve problems in my hands, plus arthritis, and I need a new shoulder. Still, I'm happy to be able to get out in the shop. Power tools eliminate a lot of the repetitive stress which means I can do more woodworking than I would be able to otherwise.


----------



## HokieKen

I chopped the mortises on my bench in large part just for the learning experience. It was worth the effort to gain the skill. A few months later I bought a benchtop mortiser ;-)


----------



## Lazyman

Yesterday my knees were the stiffest but also the quickest to loosen up afterwards. I took a walk and I felt much better. I think I must have been standing with my knees locked in the same position all afternoon. I also don't have any mats there right now so I will move some over for today's session. I thought about getting the router out several times during the first mortise but I figured by the time I made a template, got it setup and got to work, I might have at 2 mortises done. Plus 3" deep is a stretch even for the 4" long bit I just bought. The router may be my least favorite power too too. Whacking a chisel is not exactly a quiet process but the mess and noise of a router is usually a last resort for me. It would probably fit a little tighter but I think it'll be good enough. If necessary I will just glue some shims to the tenon to take up any slack.


----------



## HokieKen

> In all honesty, I d like to learn how to use more hand tools. Sadly, after carpal tunnel surgery on both hands I still have a lot of nerve problems in my hands, plus arthritis, and I need a new shoulder. Still, I m happy to be able to get out in the shop. Power tools eliminate a lot of the repetitive stress which means I can do more woodworking than I would be able to otherwise.
> 
> - EarlS


So out of curiosity, being that you're primarily a power tool guy and probably plan to stay that way, what led you to your bench design? Don't get me wrong, I can see the usefulness for power tools as well as hand tools. But I think you mentioned a planing stop and the overall design is aimed at hand tool workers. Like I said, just curious. I'm definitely a hybrid worker and use my bench for power tool work too and have the same basic design as you.


----------



## DavePolaschek

> Earl, not all of us are full on galoot. If I were doing the mortises Nathan was doing I would drill out what I could and clean them out with a chisel.


And me, I would use a brace and bit to do the drilling and still be full galoot and working a lot less hard (and with much less impact, an important thing as I get older) than doing them completely with mortise chisels. And you'd be amazed at how fast a Really Sharp auger bit will go through wood, especially with a 12 or 14 inch sweep brace behind it.

When I do pound on something, I also make sure I'm using a proper pounder. I've got mallets all the way from a dice mallet up to a huge beetle that DonW sent my way with a froe during a swap, and a bunch in between.


----------



## Lazyman

Chisel work is definitely the roughest on my hands. I think that my hands are messed up from too much keyboard and mouse work my whole career. I don't think I have carpel tunnel issues (yet) but I definitely get stiff if I sit at the keyboard too long. I probably do have a little arthritis too. I find that hand planes are are probably one of the least uncomfortable tools when it comes to hands and elbows and also the most satisfying to use. LOL. Getting old is hell but the alternative is worse.


----------



## EarlS

Kenny - all the cool people have a roubo work bench so I need one.

If you look at the overall design, apart from the tail vise and leg vise, it is just a big, heavy workbench, which is what I need. The table saw side table isn't the best workbench.

I'll likely put the plane stop on the right side of the bench so I can use it when belt sanding. The teeth will hold the board better than a bench dog would. I'm also considering remaking the bench dogs and adding a brass face to them. The ones I made are pretty sloppy in the dog holes.

I intend to get a plane and learn how to use it since there have been a number of times it would have come in handy. The dogs will be helpful with the learning process. I can always get another plane stop for the left side if it comes to that.

I'll have to try out the Veritas holdfast and see how it does clamping things down before I get too crazy with holes for it.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

> Kenny - Dave has a roubo work bench so I need one.
> 
> - EarlS


Sounds about right.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

> I ll have to try out the Veritas holdfast and see how it does clamping things down before I get too crazy with holes for it.
> 
> - EarlS


You'll love it. And, you won't need a bunch of holes for it. Less is more when it comes to holdfast holes.


----------



## HokieKen

Makes perfect sense Earl. Like I said, I think the design works for power tools as well, particularly the wagon vise. Just wondered what your thought process was. I have to admit, I wasn't impressed with the Veritas hold downs. A buddy of mine works in the shop at a lutherie school and they use those in all their benches. I much prefer the simplicity of setting them with a whacker and don't really see any advantage to the Veritas version other than possibly having more tactile control over the clamping force. I'll be curious to see what you think.


----------



## MikeB_UK

> Earl, not all of us are full on galoot. If I were doing the mortises Nathan was doing I would drill out what I could and clean them out with a chisel. Nothing wrong with power tools just some things are more relaxing/fun with hand tools and in some cases hand tools are just a better/quicker option. I like my shop quiet so I'll lean to the hand tool side but there's no way I'm taking AZ wood slabs from rough sewn to usable boards with hand tools. That just sounds miserable.
> 
> - KelleyCrafts


I'm not above breaking out a bit and brace to clear most of the waste and just clean up with a chisel.
I'm normally working with smaller stuff so just chop it out though.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

I agree Mike but in this case these are pretty large and pretty deep. A good time to hog out most of the waste first imo. Nathan's having fun so that's all that matters.


----------



## HokieKen

Personally I find banging the waste out with a chisel to be no less work than cranking a brace to remove it. I'd just as soon chop blind. Of course that's what drills are for ;-)


----------



## bandit571

Helps to have the right sized corner chisel, too…...I THINK I might have either a 7/8" or a 1" corner chisel…I'd have to go and look. Downside to these sort of chisels? Sharpening the dang things can be a Royal PITA…

My keyboard for scale..
.








1" on each flat…Timber Framer's?









Might even wear you out just moving this one around…let alone whacking it…


----------



## KelleyCrafts

I never said a brace Kenny. I was definitely referring to a drill.


----------



## Lazyman

Personally, I would rather use the mortise chisel than clean out and square up after using a drill. If I am going to go that route, I would use a plunge router first so that I mostly just have the corners to do. I bought a set of Wood Owl brad point drill bits (and gave them to myself for Christmas) in case I decided to use the drill to hog out the waste. I figured if nothing else it would be nice for when I drill holes for the hold fast. I used the Wood Owl to drill the draw bore holes. So much better than a spade bit and easier to use than a Forstner. Highly recommended.


----------



## EarlS

Dang - that thing is big enough that it could be a short sword or some sort of medieval torture device.


----------



## controlfreak

Sometimes I will hold a chisel with a death grip. This transfers some of the force of each strike to my hand. If I relax and use a softer grip it is much easier on my hand.


----------



## HokieKen

> Dang - that thing is big enough that it could be a short sword or some sort of medieval torture device.
> 
> - EarlS


----------



## KelleyCrafts

I'll have to stop checking this thread. Earl is starting to sound like my wife.


----------



## HokieKen

> ... If I relax and use a softer grip it is much easier on my hand.
> 
> - controlfreak


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Hahaha! Kenny X2


----------



## HokieKen

> Hahaha! Kenny X2
> 
> - KelleyCrafts


She's never said that…


----------



## EarlS

> Kenny X2
> 
> - KelleyCrafts


I don't think the world is ready for *2* Kenny's. Look at how crazy things are in now with just one.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Yeah Earl but our Kenny is more like the Doug character from that multiplicity movie. "I like pizza"


----------



## Lazyman

Oh man! Look at the bench warming present that just showed up unexpectantly.










Thanks so much DaveK. I owe you one!


----------



## HokieKen

Wow, super nice Dave! And that is a couple of sexy dudes in your last post.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

No problem Nathan. I didn't get as good a deal as bandit got on his two for $10 deal but I did "ok" on the two I have and probably only need one.

Enjoy!


----------



## KelleyCrafts

This is coming along…won't be able to work on it again until next week unfortunately.

I did get some good use out of my new plane stop because I didn't want to clamp the V grove side with dogs. Worked well.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

The fit is a little tight and apparently my bench isn't as perfect as I let on. It fits on the left half but not on the right half so I need to shorten it some. It's actually to tight for the left half to slide nice anyway I think.


----------



## Lazyman

Cool design, Dave.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Thanks Nathan. Can't take credit, I stole it off the internets.


----------



## EarlS

I like the dovetail detail. Aer you planning to put your emblem on it?


----------



## EarlS

Woo hoo - we flipped the top over, set the leg tenons into the mortises and everything is flat, no slight tips or anything to suggest that the top would need to be shimmed or anything. I'm going to use the screws to attach the top to the side rails just so I don't accidently move the top off the legs.

My plane stop and holdfast arrived from Lee Valley - that was fast.

Looks like today will start off with some snow removal (just a couple inches), final sand the top, get the plane stop installed and put some Watco on it, then start figuring out the chop and dead man. Dave's dead man gave me an idea. Later this afternoon when I'm weary from all the hard work, I'll get a beer and write up the blog.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

> I like the dovetail detail. Aer you planning to put your emblem on it?
> 
> - EarlS


Don't think so Earl. I might just get some holes in the thing and work out the details on attaching it and call it good. No clue if I should fancy it up or not at the moment.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Pretty exciting day on the bench Earl! Just a couple things left and your done! Think you'll have it done by the end of the weekend?


----------



## HokieKen

Looks like I'll spend MLKJ day clearing snow here Earl. 12-15" forcasted tomorrow. Was looking forward to a day in the shop but we'll see how that plays out…


----------



## Lazyman

You are welcome for the incentive, Earl. Shame is a great motivator. I am glad I could help. 

Come on Dave. Surely you can come up with a cool mural to carve into your deadman that incorporates the hole layout into the scene. ~(_8^(I)


----------



## Lazyman

Hmm, Kenny. If you don't clear the snow, then you definitely can't go anywhere and you can spend the day in the shop. You aren't thinking straight.

EDIT: BTW. I give lazy lessons upon request.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

The mural for the moxon was suggested by my wife and I think Kenny might have had input on that. I would have been to lazy otherwise.


----------



## Lazyman

Well that Moxon mural was just brilliant, especially with the cool grain involved.

(Auto correct keeps trying to change Moxon to moron so if one sneaks through, don't take it personally


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Well the wife is brilliant compared to this guy. I often tell her "you tractor, me bull".


----------



## HokieKen

If I don't clear the snow though, my wife can't go anywhere either Nathan. I'm hoping they'll scrape the roads early and she'll be anle to work 1/2 a day. Otherwise she's gonna think it's a good day to make chilli and "Netflix & chill". Which now that I think about it, doesn't sound half bad either…


----------



## HokieKen

You tractor, me bull. LOL. Haven't heard that one before  Probably because me bull too.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

"Netflix and chill" days are good days.


----------



## KentInOttawa

Since my accident I cannot guarantee that I'll have enough energy or focus to use the snowblower, so my wife has learned to use and love using the snowblower. It's extremely rare that she doesn't beat me to it now.


----------



## bandit571

Had a high spot in my bench…









Nice and flat, now…


----------



## theoldfart

This post is a bit late but this is my deadman.
Roughly two inches thick, removable piece on top.










In order to use both the 203 and my 1" holdfasts I chose three holes to modify.
I first drilled a hole wide enough to allow the 203 to be used in any orientation and deep enough to leave only 3/4" of material.










The upper left hole can take a 203 in a vertical orientation only. So far there's been no need to modify any of the other holes.


----------



## Mosquito

I got a pair of 203's last year, but still have no deadman for my bench… might have to get on that this year


----------



## Lazyman

I am either really good at hand chopping mortises or really bad and have lots of slop in them because the base slid into place without any tweaking with only a little persuasion…

(Note: this is not an upside down photo)








...or just lucky. That was a pleasant surprise.

Then I did the remaining setup for the leg vise hardware. 


















I think that all that is left is to route a groove for the deadman and I can flip it over. Not sure how I am going to manage that. Might have to get my brother in law over to help with the final flip.


----------



## rad457

Pretty sure that's how it is supposed to work Nathan? When I flipped my top over couple of gentle taps an she dropped down, have never attempted to remove it


----------



## Sylvain

There are two ways to flip a workbench.
long side or short side first.
Look at the video at the end of this blog:
https://paulsellers.com/2017/08/update-hannahs-progress/


----------



## Sylvain

> The fit is a little tight [...]. It fits on the left half but not on the right half so I need to shorten it some. It's actually to tight for the left half to slide nice anyway I think.
> 
> - KelleyCrafts


Question for those using a deadman:

Do you actually need it near the vise?
Isn't it intended for long pieces?


----------



## KelleyCrafts

I don't think you need one next to the vise sylvain. However being able to slide it the whole way doesn't hurt. I can't imagine. In my case it won't even go to the right side fully. So I need to shorten it and it'll live down there mostly I think anyway this is the first one I've ever owned.


----------



## CL810

Or large pieces Sylvain. I think the closest my 203 has ever been used is 1.5'-2' from the vise. But those are the exception.


----------



## Lazyman

> There are two ways to flip a workbench.
> long side or short side first.
> Look at the video at the end of this blog:
> https://paulsellers.com/2017/08/update-hannahs-progress/
> 
> - Sylvain


The problem is that I calculate that my bench top alone probably weighs around 150 lbs and another 70 lbs or so for the base. I can lift one end of the bench but no way I could lower even the top by itself down off the bench by myself. As soon as I get more than about 100 lbs past the point of no return over the edge of the assembly table it is sitting on now, the gravity of the situation would become overwhelming. I would not attempt it anyway because once you've gone too far it is all over.

The only way I might be able to do it alone would be to put the base on the ground with blocks under it to make it almost level with the assembly table then lift and pivot one end of the top at a time onto the base so that I am never lifting more than 100 pounds and it is never tipped so far that I cannot lift it back up if necessary.


----------



## DavePolaschek

If you do try that, Nathan, make sure to have someone hold your beer and film it for YouTube!


----------



## Lazyman

The beer will be sitting on the bench top as an aid. If it starts to slide, I know that I am tipping it too much and the thought of spilling the beer with aid with the release of adrenaline to stop it from sliding. I can setup a live video feed if anyone is interested. If I don't stream it live I may not survive to post the results.


----------



## Sylvain

Obviously, the workbench moved by Hannah in the video is not a vey massive one but the technique is nevertheless interesting as, I guess, most people would try to turn the bench on the long side with back-pain as a result.
It could be used for other things also.

Speaking about mass:
https://dblaney.wordpress.com/tag/moravian-bench/

Don't miss the two last sentences ;-)


----------



## EarlS

I never flipped the base upside down. Instead, I cut the mortises into the top and flipped it over. Plus the front mortises were cut into one of the strips before it was glued into the front section.

Yesterday was spent making the inset ring for the plane stop and drilling out the hole for it in the top. There was some blood shed, but not too much.










Took care of a few odds and ends today. The Watco needs to dry a bit before I can do anything on it.










Still need to make the deadman and chop. That will probably take a bit since I need to do some inlay work. Meanwhile, I can write up a couple blog entries. Gotta keep up with Nathan.


----------



## CL810

Thanks for the link Sylvain. I got lost in that blog for about an hour, an enjoyable hour! Going to revisit and read past posts.


----------



## HokieKen

Daggonit. Earl's bench has a butthole too. Guess I better think of something different when I do finally get around to adding a stop…


----------



## OleGrump

Sylvain,

The deadman is intended for various length wide pieces, whether that means pieces of lumber, doors, panels or even drawers. Whether someone wants it to come close to the vise is a matter of personal taste. Some folks even leave a gap in the runner at those first few inches so their deadman can be removed by sliding it up next to the vise.
I personally like being able to slide the deadman close in order to provide some additional support under any stock being held vertically to work on the end grain. It will be interesting to see what others have to say on this subject.


----------



## EarlS

Kenny- try bloodwood or redheart and make something like this:


----------



## Lazyman

> This post is a bit late but this is my deadman.
> Roughly two inches thick, removable piece on top.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In order to use both the 203 and my 1" holdfasts I chose three holes to modify.
> I first drilled a hole wide enough to allow the 203 to be used in any orientation and deep enough to leave only 3/4" of material.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The upper left hole can take a 203 in a vertical orientation only. So far there's been no need to modify any of the other holes.
> 
> - theoldfart


Kevin, 
Is that removable piece on top just sitting there or is attached somehow?

Also, from the picture, the height of the strip (or the gap when you remove it) doesn't look to me like enough so that the bottom can clear the pyramidal runner on the bottom? Is that just an illusion? Maybe I am just not thinking through how it actually moves in the slot.

For anyone: I know that it depends upon the thickness and height of the deadman, as well as the size of the tab, but I was wondering how much wider the groove needs to be than the tab that rides in it-or at least how much wider you made it. I am about to route that groove and don't want to have more slop than necessary.


----------



## EarlS

I just looked at the Benchcrafted plans. The runner is 1-7/16 wide with a 3/4" tall 45 deg bevel. The deadman is also 1-7/16 thick with 5/8" tall 45 deg notch. My guess is that the height difference is there so the deadman notch doesn't come to a point. The slot in the top is 3/4" wide and the narrow section on top of the deadman is 11/16". I'm alod going to sand a slight taper into it as well. I also have some thin slick tape that will work for the notch and the top of the deadman to help with sliding it.


----------



## theoldfart

Nathan, two screws in the back and it does allow the deadman to be lifted over the guide on the bottom.


----------



## EarlS

whew - the 3 chapter write up (confessional) on the top, end caps, and tail vise are done. Time to move on to leg vise, chop and deadman. Hopefully, it will be less of a screw up (see what I did there?)


----------



## Lazyman

I got the groove for the deadman cut and my BIL came over and helped me flip the top and put it on the base. Tomorrow, I will drive the draw bores home and plane the top flat. If time and weather allows, I will start work on the leg vise chop too. Big chunk of cherry waiting for that. I think that this can now be called a bench!


----------



## EarlS

Looks good Nathan. Are you going to put any kind of finish on it? I used Watco on mine.

BTW - I have a bunch of extra dogs too if you need any that are ~1-3/8×1-1/8 (I think)


----------



## bandit571

Waiting on the Bondo Pose?


----------



## Lazyman

Gotta get all the hardware in place first bandit-on second thought, no one needs to see that. 

Earl, I knew that there was something else I was going to do before I flip it over onto the base. I was going to apply a finish to the bottom. I will probably either put some Odies Oil on it (I just bought some but have not actually tried it yet) or some Tried and True Varnish oil which is Basically a BLO with some varnish. The T&T VO is my usual go-to when I don't need or want the protection of a hard poly finish but I've been wanting to try the Odies Oil and shop project are usually a good place to try something new.

I'll let you know about the dogs. I don't remember what size I made my dog holes exactly but I think that they were 1" wide? I'll probably make at least a couple tomorrow so that I can use my wagon vise as soon as it is installed.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

> Waiting on the Bondo Pose?
> 
> - bandit571


That bondo pose all stopped with Kenny. He finished his bench and never did one so nobody after him did either.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Looking awesome Nathan and Earl! I have three blog posts of Earls to read but they are looking awesome. Super excited for you guys AND you're almost in the same steps right?


----------



## Lazyman

Earl is still a little ahead of me but I'm gaining on him.


----------



## Lazyman

> Waiting on the Bondo Pose?
> 
> - bandit571
> 
> That bondo pose all stopped with Kenny. He finished his bench and never did one so nobody after him did either.
> 
> - KelleyCrafts


Heck, I'm not sure that Kenny ever actually posted a finished picture of his bench much less did the pose.. I guess he is waiting for the crisscross to be installed to call it complete.


----------



## EarlS

Now you've done it. We are going to get the full Kenny, green cape and all.

I'm waiting to do the bondo pose until I get the deadman and leg vise finished. I might have to bribe SWMBO to get her to take the picture.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

I was going to do one and I had my wife out there to snap the pic but once she realized all I was wearing was a speedo she refused and made me promise not to do it. She also told me to tell you all "you're welcome".


----------



## HokieKen

> Now you ve done it. We are going to get the full Kenny, green cape and *that's* all.
> ...
> 
> - EarlS


----------



## CL810

*NNNNoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


----------



## bandit571

Good thing my bench was done LONG before the Bondo Pose…..


----------



## rad457

> I was going to do one and I had my wife out there to snap the pic but once she realized all I was wearing was a speedo she refused and made me promise not to do it. She also told me to tell you all "you're welcome".
> 
> - KelleyCrafts


Mine refused my "Chaps" pose, did suggest putting at least the Speedo on The Leopard skin one that got so much attention at the Waikiki beach


----------



## Notw

> I was going to do one and I had my wife out there to snap the pic but once she realized all I was wearing was a speedo she refused and made me promise not to do it. She also told me to tell you all "you're welcome".
> 
> - KelleyCrafts
> 
> Mine refused my "Chaps" pose, did suggest putting at least the Speedo on The Leopard skin one that got so much attention at the Waikiki beach
> 
> - Andre


This has a lot to do why I never posted my finished workbench…LOL


----------



## mminer61

I guess I have lurked on this forum for long enough. Time to introduce myself. I started building my Moravian workbench last summer. I got a great deal on a locally harvested Walnut slab from a sawmill and decided to build my bench around that. The rest of the bench is cherry also sourced from the local sawmill. I have mostly finished the legs, flattened and dowelled the top. I am just about finished with the tool tray. Next will be making the leg vise mount and chop. I am using Benchcrafted hardware for the leg vise and Will Myers wagon vise hardware. I originally planned to do a Roubo bench and ordered a Benchcrafted Classic vise and crisscross. Now I need to order the 14" crisscross for the leg vise and find a needy home for the full-size crisscross.

I wish I had taken more pictures. Here are pics from the start:


















Legs and short stretchers prior to mortising:









Flattening the top:









Current state:


----------



## Lazyman

Well my bench had a hollow in the top that required more flattening than I expected. The bottom was actually flatter than the top was.










I actually left a little of the hollow for now. I will fix that later if it becomes an issue but she is nice and smooth now. 









I am debating whether and what kind of finish to apply. I'm thinking about trying the Odie's Oil I just bought. I am afraid it might be too slick though.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Looks awesome mminner!

Nathan I used Osmo matte on mine. It has wax in it and I kind of like that it's a little on the slick side. All of my work holding implements work just fine and I think the bench is easier to clean with the Osmo on it because of the wax. Plus it'll protect against mild condensation on the bench from drinks. I imagine the odies is similar.

I used the T&T on the moxon vise and after four days was still sticky for some reason. So I threw some Osmo over that too.


----------



## bandit571

Mine was just a few wipe-ons of BLO….


----------



## drsurfrat

> Looks awesome mminner!
> - KelleyCrafts


Ditto


----------



## Lazyman

Tried and True Varnish Oil (which is basically BLO with a light varnish) is my usual go-to for stuff like this but I have been wanting to try the Odies Oil so this might be a good place to give it a try.


----------



## HokieKen

Mine is just BLO. I give it a new soak once a year. It could probably use it twice but it's rarely clean enough…


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

> I actually left a little of the hollow for now. I will fix that later if it becomes an issue but she is nice and smooth now.
> 
> - Lazyman


Now take a toothing iron to it and get some grippiness! Smooth = bed, as stuff slides around too easily.


----------



## controlfreak

Moravian porn, I love it!


----------



## EarlS

mminer - great looking bench. Looking forward to seeing more of your work.

I have 4 cans of Watco rejuvinating oil so I'll be treating the top to a fresh coat weekly. I might also have some Watco satin wax hiding in the back of the cupboard. Gotta make it beautiful for the glamour shots when it is finished.


----------



## CL810

Great bench Mark in Utah!


----------



## Lazyman

Yeah Smitty, it occurred to me after I got it flat that the slickness might not be great. I'll get out the toothing iron on my 112 if it gets annoying.

Earl: Apply the rejuvenating oil weekly? I've never used the Wacto Rejuvenating Oil. Do you just mean over the short term or is this stuff you might use that often going forward?


----------



## HokieKen

I agree with Smitty that you'll probably want a little tooth on your benchtop. A hand planed surface with no scraping or sanding works well for me. When I try to do little tasks on my router table with a formica top or on my table saw, I realize just how far a slightly rough surface goes


----------



## EarlS

Nathan - Ok - the weekly application was a bit of a stretch, but I am going to try out the rejuvinating oil and see how it does. There might be a little wax in it. At any rate, I sanded the top to 220 grit and it doesn't seem too slick. Of course the Watco might still be a bit sticky too.

Had to re-word this next line a couple times to keep from getting in trouble. The plane stop that I put on the right side of the table to use when I'm using a belt sander, is working well so far. I've tried it with a couple of boards for the drawers. Every time I use the "butthole" I'm reminded of Kenny (since he named it that). ;+P


----------



## Lazyman

I think that the right term is "clenched butthole", at least when you have tightened it down anyway.


----------



## HokieKen

You put it on the right side Earl? Are you left-handed? Seems like it would be more convenient on the left side?


----------



## KelleyCrafts

I think he's using it to hold wood while he uses a belt sander which would kick the wood back if you were holding the sander like a hand plane (right handed). So having it on the right makes the belt sander push the wood against it.

At least that's the theory I think he's rolling with.


----------



## drsurfrat

Ha, that reminds me, we used to use SPF numbers for our level of anxiety for engineering deadlines and such. SPF stood for 'sphincter pucker factor.'


----------



## EarlS

Dave is correct. If I ever become proficient with a plane, I can put one on the left side. The dogs are a little too close to the front edge (1-1/4") to be able to keep a wide board from moving around when using a belt sander.

I suppose I could have bought the Benchcrafted planing stop but I would have had to chop a decent sized (2-1/2" x 2-1/2") hole thru the bench.


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## revrok

I too lurk primarily since I built my bench some years ago and posted on the old thread. Thanks for posting. That Moravian will be beautiful. My current bench is on the small side and I have more space than when I built it. I have been planning a Roubo build for some time now (hence the continued stalking of the thread). I definitely considered a Moravian, but I am going to go the opposite direction in mass and portability with a shaker or a Roubo plus cabinet. I still get excited about the engineering that went into the Moravian though!



> I guess I have lurked on this forum for long enough. Time to introduce myself. I started building my Moravian workbench last summer. I got a great deal on a locally harvested Walnut slab from a sawmill and decided to build my bench around that. The rest of the bench is cherry also sourced from the local sawmill. I have mostly finished the legs, flattened and dowelled the top. I am just about finished with the tool tray. Next will be making the leg vise mount and chop. I am using Benchcrafted hardware for the leg vise and Will Myers wagon vise hardware. I originally planned to do a Roubo bench and ordered a Benchcrafted Classic vise and crisscross. Now I need to order the 14" crisscross for the leg vise and find a needy home for the full-size crisscross.
> 
> I wish I had taken more pictures. Here are pics from the start:
> 
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> Legs and short stretchers prior to mortising:
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> Flattening the top:
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> Current state:
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> 
> - mminer61


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## HokieKen

Ahh, so you have a bench backstop instead of a bench stop Earl ;-) That makes sense.

I think you made the right call with the LV stop. The Benchcrafted is more traditional but less versatile IMO. It's probably faster to use since you just push it up vs having to loosen/tighten the screw so it has that advantage. LV wins with the 4 different sides and ease of installation. Different strokes…


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## DavePolaschek

> Ahh, so you have a bench backstop instead of a bench stop Earl ;-) That makes sense.


This has been one of the happier surprises about my bench. When I built it, I wasn't planning on it being only a woodworking bench. Specifically, one end of it got a bunch of the neighborhood lawnmowers set on it every spring so I could pull the blade, walk it over to the bench grinder, and sharpen up the blades for the neighbors. As such, I screwed a pine 1×6 to the back of the bench, extending about 4" above the top of the bench. It was hugely handy for keeping things from falling off the back of the bench.

Since moving to NM and building a new shop, I'm not sharpening lawnmower blades, but I have been doing more hand-planing, and that board across the back of the bench, reinforced with a couple scraps of tubafor, is now my most common planing stop, as I plane towards the wall. On my 30" deep bench, it accommodates a lot of the work I do, is quick to set up (takes zero time), and isn't ever in the way, as the back of the bench is against the wall anyhow. I removed the planing stop from the front edge of my bench and set it somewhere over a year ago…


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## mminer61

KelleyCrafts, drsurfrat, controlfreak, CL810,
Thanks for the comments. This thread along with the previous really inspired me to start.

Tim,
I originally intended to build a Roubo. But once I saw the Moravian design, something about its engineering of it spoke to me. I love that it can be disassembled and moved easily. This bench should outlast me and it will be easier to pass along at some point. (This is not saying that it is necessarily my last workbench.) I am also very partial to a Roubo with a cabinet beneath like KellyCraft's bench. That is a beautiful bench.


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## KelleyCrafts

Thanks for the kind words Mark!


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## KelleyCrafts

Ok all, got the deadman finally finished up. Went on vacation in the middle so it's old news now but figured I would share anyway.


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## Lazyman

That looks pretty nice. Another great addition to any already beautiful bench.


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## controlfreak

Dave do you have shorter clamps for the bottom of the deadman or do you plan on just using a holdfast and driving it home? JK but wondered what you are using. Looks like a lot of great storage too, is it deep or do you have more on the other side?


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## EarlS

Dave what is the clearance between the deadman and the front of the drawers?

I'm also curious how long the clamp leg is. The Veritas holdfast I have has a long post, and a short post. But the short post is still 5" long so I'm probably going to need to cut the 10" post into a shorter (3-4") version so I don't hit the drawers with it. Might also have to tap the far end and use a nut and washer on the back side of it. Either way, probably will be a few months before the holdfast holes get drilled. That will be the first project for the Nova Viking (still not ordered, yet).

Almost finished with the drawer design, then out to the shop to plane and glue up panels for the drawers, the deadman, and the leg vise. I'm waiting for a box of goodies from Bell Forest Products to make them look fancy.


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## Sylvain

Those who follow Paul Sellers know that most of the time he works with the piece in the vice.
I once saw a video where he was planing a board which was flexing under the plane.
I could not find it later.
So now, have a look at the video in his blog from about 1'20".

Obviously the table is nevertheless flat.

Most of the time, his workbench is a vise support (like a battle ship would be a gun platform.)
That is not to say he never uses the flat surface of his workbench. It seems it was necessary to make picture frames.

He also has his ways about clamping


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Dave, love the deadman and love the cabinet!


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## Lazyman

Sellers has several videos show that him using bar clamps to hold pieces down to the bench top when the pieces are too large for his vise. He often holds a bar or pipe clamp in his vise and sometimes he clamps another clamp or two down to the bench. Here is one of his articles on the subject.


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## HokieKen

Sexy bench is even sexier now Dave. Love the 3-piece dovetailed construction of the deadman.

What kind of clamp is that on there?


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## bandit571

Had to clear the decks for action, today..









Was getting a bit …messy..









Where all the "Mischief" occurs..









Tool tray got cleaned out..for a little while..









Until the Lumber arrived….


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## HokieKen

You all have me pondering a cabinet under my bench now…. I have bigger stuff down there now - a couple of miter boxes and a benchtop mortiser being the biggest. But if I had a cabinet down there and could put my planes on top of the cabinet, I could put shelves for the miter boxes where my plane till is now and get rid of a rolling cabinet I have now and actually free up some floor space. Then the mortiser would be the only thing needing a new home. The miter boxes would be less accessible but probably not so much so that I wouldn't still use them.

You all are bad influences!


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## KelleyCrafts

Looking good bandit!

I had more questions than expected this morning. This will be a photo heavy post.

Controlfreak I have a Stanley 203 I can use as a clamp in the lower sections but I have other ideas as well to clamp with but haven't tested them yet.










Also control freak the drawers have an open space of about 16.25". Enough to fit plenty and I only have drawers on the front side but I do have some storage on the back side. Let's play "what's in your drawers?" Here's all of my drawers/cabinet and the back side.














































Then the back side.










Earl, I only have about 3/8" gap between the cabinet and the deadman.










Kenny the clamp I use in that photo was to test out some stuff I use on my MFT table. Worked out well and less of a beating than the holdfasts would be on it.


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## EarlS

The whole purpose for the under bench storage is so I can get everything into the shop. I need to get rid of a couple rolling cabinets so I can get the bandsaw and planer out of the non climate controlled garage. I also need to find a home for the Leigh fly pro and d4. If I'm really lucky is can get the spindle sander in the shop too.

I'm afraid my head would explode if I visited bandit's shop. Everything always has to be put away and everything has to be cleaned. I just finished vacuuming the floor and table saw after planing just so I can cover it in saw dust from ripping boards. I blame my mom because she always made us clean and pick everything up.

Kenny we don't want you to play what's in my drawers?


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## KelleyCrafts

I'm not as anal as you Earl. Not even close but I do put things away often so I have a nice non cluttered space to work in. Clears my head better.


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## Lazyman

Yep, Dave's cabinet has me thinking about making one too. I hadn't really thought about making it low enough that hold fasts would still work or to be able to store bench hooks a shooting board and a couple other bench related jigs I plan to make. It would be nice to have a place to store my carving tools and I still haven't come up with a good way to keep my block planes handy so a drawer at the bench would be perfect. I was already planning to make a cabinet to go underneath my CNC machine to store bits and other CNC related stuff but while I am at it I might as well plan for two while I am milling up the wood for it.


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## KelleyCrafts

My bench top accessories are just a step away to the right of the bench.


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## KelleyCrafts

Taking these photos today makes me feel the need to sweep the floors or invite Earl over.


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## bandit571

Already swept mine…..


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## Bearcontrare

Most of y'all know, the wife and I moved about six weeks ago into our forever home (i.e, until we die). And most of y'all know I built my last workbench so that it folds and would be easy to move. The leg vise and end vises are detachable. It was one of the easiest items to move from our temporary housing. This bench was built to be primarily for hand tool woodworking.
I'm DAMNED glad I am able and enjoy hand woodworking, because the power company here in Hagerstown, Maryland absolutely RAPES it's customers, especially in the Winter. For the record, I have not used any power tools since we've been here, and the bill was still SKY high! I mean, it's almost a choice between having food on the table OR paying Potomac Edison. I can see I'm gonna be doing a lot of work in warm weather having the overhead door open for light, with hand cranked and treadle operated equipment to get the work done.


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## KentInOttawa

> You all have me pondering a cabinet under my bench now…. <snip></snip>
> 
> You all are bad influences!
> 
> - HokieKen


Yeap. Fortunately (???) for me, I accumulate projects much more quickly than I can do anything about them, so this one probably exists just in my head.

In the meantime, I pulled out the lunchbox planer today and started dressing some recycled pallet wood. It has been cold and miserable here lately, and I wound up using the shop to heat up and repair the snowblower. All the extra sawdust and chips are helping to mitigate the smell of some gas that dribbled out of the carb.



















I'll do some more tomorrow and hopefully, the gas smell will disappear.


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## EarlS

I think I might just about have enough walnut to make the cabinet. I planed every bit of walnut I have and tomorrow the last of the boards will be run across the jointer and ripped to width I'm gluing panels as I go so I can stand them in place so I know which ones are done. Some of the panels have 5 or 6 strips in them.

The cabinet will be 41×20, which gives me 1/4" clearance on each side and 1" between the drawer fronts and the deadman.

Oh crap - I just realized I didn't set aside walnut for the leg vise chop. Well, that was poor planning.


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## rad457

Walnut crazy around here, 1/4 sawn 8/4 going for $25.00 a bd/ft. CAN. about $18-19 US. It sure is purity though
Hard Maple 4/4 flat cut was $10.00 bd/ft. CAN. Think I was paying about $7.00 CAN for 8/4 Maple when I built my bench.


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## rad457

Double Post?


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## EarlS

Prices are higher here in IA but not that high. Fortunately there are several small sawmill in the area so they are usually more reasonable.

The walnut I got from my usual supplier wound up looking like something out of a barn. Some of the 5/4 boards didn't yield anything thicker than 3/4 and that was after cutting them down to rough lengths of 42 in. Hopefully some of the other places have better quality.


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## Lazyman

Chunk of cherry for the leg vise turned out to be more cupped and twisted than I thought before I started. I don't have a jointing sled so I had to get it flat enough on one side at least so that I could put it through my planner to get it perfectly flat because I am going to use my CNC to cut the grooves and holes for the vise hardware and x-link.


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## KelleyCrafts

Well done! I figured you both got off track. Seems like it's been forever to get updates for my impatient little mind.


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## HokieKen

Ever used your CNC to flatten a face Nathan? Seems like a big inserted bit would make pretty quick work of it?


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## EarlS

I got a bit ambitious gluing panels together for the cabinet and used the walnut that was supposed to be used for leg vise chop. Plan B is to use a couple 8/4 cherry blanks and some of the birds eye maple, bubinga, granadillo, and goncalo alves that just arrived from Bell Forest Products to make an inlay on the front of it. Still working out those details. I'm hoping the Nova Viking gets here soon enough to use to drill the hole for the vise.


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## Lazyman

In that case, I also installed my bench stop. I had to wait for a new 2" Forstner bit to arrive. The cheap one I had was going to have a way too sloppy hole so bought a nice Freud bit. I must have gotten the 1" hole off center by a tiny bit because it would not go all the way in without tapping it down. Didn't take much persuading but I could not press it in by hand. The sloppy hole would have probably helped with that. I decided not to bother with the butthole. 










I also made a couple of quick and dirty bench dogs so that I can use the wagon vise. Once I get the leg vise installed. I will use some of the cherry to make some that are a better fit. I may use some of the cherry for the deadman too.


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## Lazyman

> Ever used your CNC to flatten a face Nathan? Seems like a big inserted bit would make pretty quick work of it?
> 
> - HokieKen


Just once for a wide panel and that actually took a while due to the size. I have a 2" bit for flattening the spoil board that works very well. It might have been faster on this piece than using a hand plane but since you have to create a tool path, probably not by much. Plus, since it wasn't flat, my painter's tape and CA trick or double stick tape won't work. I am sure that I could have come up with a way to do it but I doubt it would have saved much time after rigging up a way to secure it that doesn't interfere with the bit planing the surface.


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## KelleyCrafts

There you go Nathan. Now Earl is the only slacker. I know he's trying to build a fancier bench than my bench so he's going to keep me waiting.


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## EarlS

Dave - my bench build is suffering from scope creep. The cabinet wasn't supposed to start until after the leg vise was finished. Plus there might be a bunch of drawer box sides and some panels for the router table storage cabinet.

Someone needs to talk to the Project Manager and get him straightened out.


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## KelleyCrafts

Scope creep happens. Not as catchy as the other well known phrase.


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## HokieKen

Scope creep is inevitable. My problem is that it usually creeps so far that it veers completely off track and I end up doing half a dozen other things before finally finishing the thing I started a year or two later. If you look at the wrap-up post in my workbench blog series that will be evidenced by the fact that there is no wrap-up post in my workbench blog series.


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## HokieKen

I've still been holding out for a Millers Falls bench stop but it's looking like I may end up with the LV version as well. I just can't find any. The last one that came up on Ebay was quite a while back and I was too frugal to really get after it.


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## KelleyCrafts

The LV one is better, it's modeled after the MF one so you still get MF love and it's likely going to be cheaper. Just go with LV.


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## Lazyman

I am intentionally avoiding even looking at anymore pictures of Dave's cabinet so that I don't wander off into the weeds. I pulled up my CNC file for cutting the groove and holes for my leg vise…Squirrel! ... and immediately side tracked into looking at ideas for carving a cool inlay into it. Must…Finish…Leg Vise.

Kenny. I have to say that the LV bench stop is nice and solid. No regrets in buying it from me. The part that is red on the MF one is unpainted so you could always paint it red in homage to the vintage one.


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## HokieKen

Installing the X-link on my leg vise is going to be quite the ordeal so it's been back-burnered. My current chop is too short so I either have to lengthen it or make a new chop. Probably just make a new one but still entertaining the idea of adding a piece at the bottom with a big dovetail kinda like Dave's deadman.

But not only is the chop an issue but I'll have to clear everything off of the bench and off the shelf underneath it and then get some help so I can flip the bench on it's back to route the channels in for the x-link. I'm also going to have to plug the through mortise where the parallel guide rides because the channel for the x-link will pass through it.

So instead of an evening job to install it like I thought, it's gonna be more like a weekend job :-( I still think it's worthwhile in the long run though.


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## EarlS

Kenny - Just think of it as Spring house cleaning.

The LV stop showed that it was on back order the other day when I was on their site looking for a leather cover for the end of the Veritas holdfast.


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## KelleyCrafts

I don't blame you Nathan.










WAIT! How did that get there?










AND AGAIN! Sigh, I can't control this post.


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## CL810

Computers - who knows what they do when they do it!


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## Lazyman

I just wasted another 10 minutes, Dave. Thanks.

Kenny, I know that you already have the criss-cross but did you consider selling it and buying the short one that Benchcrafted sells for shorter benches and the Moravian design? I think it only requires a 14.25" mortise vs. the 19.5" one the full size BC criss-cross requires. Also, the Hovarter x-link only requires 16 3/16" mortise. From the center of the vise shaft to the bottom of the mortise requires 18 3/16"


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## KelleyCrafts

Just trying to be the influence I strive to be.

Good idea on the short crisscross. Something to consider Kenny. Not sure how easy it'll be to sell the other one.


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## HokieKen

Yeah, I laid it out and even if I installed the x-link with the top right below the shaft, my chop is still over an inch too short. When I made my chop I saw no reason it needed to go any lower than my parallel guide so it didn't and my parallel guide sits on top of my stretchers rather than below. I'll stick with the X-link since I already have it.


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## EarlS

Dave - what happened to the bench top vise? Nathan wants to see a picture or two of it too.

What are the drawer dimensions?


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## KelleyCrafts

Those were old pics Earl, the Moxon wasn't made yet. I just grabbed a couple from my phone.

The dimensions for the drawers themselves? I just made the bottom drawer tall enough to fit a bench plane in. The rest were divided equally with the space I had allotted for a cabinet. The drawers are about 18" deep with about 16.5" of usable depth. I can give exact details if you want them but it might not matter when applied to your bench.


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## EarlS

Dave - it looks like you have more room than I do. Mine is 41-1/2×20 wide x 21 tall (bottom of the dogs)

At this point, the cabinet design 41×20 tall x 19-1/2 wide.

drawers are made from 3/4×4" boards, 14" x 18", with 4-1/2×15-3/4 drawer front.

I still haven't decided what to do to get the bottom edge of the lowest drawer above the deadman rail. I might just add a spacer board to bring the entire cabinet up about an inch or so.


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## KelleyCrafts

Mine is 40 5/8X22 1/2 width/length 16 3/4 tall.

I only have 1/16" clearance for the bottom of my drawer to my rail.


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## controlfreak

Well I went and did it. I wanted to have a planning stop so I re-sawed a scrap piece of wood and epoxied a dowel in one end. I drilled a new dog hole to receive that and for the other end is screwed to a board that will be clamped in my vise. Epoxy was being stubborn last night drying so I decided to give it an overnight rest before cleaning up and testing. Pictures to follow if it all works out. It is an idea stolen from Mike Pekovich and if it is functional the price is right. If the epoxy dowel doesn't work out I can just insert a bench dog to support that end.


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## EarlS

For those that made box joints on the cabinet - Just the ends of the top, bottom, and sides, or did you also make box joints to attach the back panel? Also, how did you make the box joints for the top and bottom?

As things look right now, I'll have to put the Leigh D4 dovetail jig on a block to get it high enough to fit the top and bottom panels. I'm also not sure there are enough fingers on the guide bar to set up the entire 20". If not, I might have to revert to plan B and make dovetails. I think the DT jig is wide enough to handle 24" panels.


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## Lazyman

Can you use the DT jig to make box joints?

When I made my lathe cabinet, I used oversized finger joints for the cabinet box and made a one-off box joint router jig that gave me perfectly fitting joints. For the back I used shiplap to deal with any issues of wood movement across the length.


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## HokieKen

IMO Earl, if you're going to display box joints or dovetails on the outside of casework like that, they must be hand cut. ;-)

JK of course. Though in all honesty, about the only time I've seen external dovetails on pieces that large that didn't look out of place to me are when they have really small pins and large tails like on this Pekovich cabinet:









Or variable sized/spaced box joints which I don't seem to be able to find a good picture of at the moment…

But in all honesty, if it were me, I'd KISS. Not only are the nice joints not a structural requirement, they're a lot more work (to cut and also to clean the glue squeeze out from) and in this case, because of the location, the cabinet won't really be a showpiece. Those corners will probably be all but invisible with the big top and legs obscuring them. You probably won't see them often, let alone anyone else.

So IMHO, if you want to use box joints or dts, I'd get a little creative with sizing/spacing but I'd probably just go with splined miters or rabbets if it were me.

*Edit to add:* Another joint I really like on casework is through tenons. Simple, structurally effective and attractive. Fits with your A&C MO too ;-)


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## HokieKen

Oh, and like Nathan said, I'd probably just make the back a floating panel. Shiplap is a good idea or if you want to use matching wood, just house it in grooves in the case work.


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## KelleyCrafts

I agree with Kenny. My wife takes people in the shop to show them my bench more often then you would think and the one thing everyone seems to love is the cabinet. No clue why. Mine is loose M&T (dominos). If it were DTs you really wouldn't see any of the joints.

Also my back panel sits into my box a handful of inches for added storage just in a dado. It's floating.


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## EarlS

I really like the raised DT's but in this case, I'm sticking with flush DT's or box joints so I can slide stuff on the top of the case. I like the thru tenon look as well. Our Stickley sofa and chairs chairs and the reclining Morris chair all have them (I was lazy and bought them rather than making them).

I'm leaning more toward thru DT's than box joints. I like the thru DT look more than half blind DT's.

The 1/2" back panel will have a rabbet that will float in a 1/4" slot in the sides/top.

Dave - The Leigh DR4 DT jig can do box joints as well as DT joints.

Kenny - you described exactly what would happen if I tried to use hand tools to make the dovetails - hand cut, probably several times, lots of blood.


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## MikeJ70

Hey everyone, just wanted to share some progress pics on my bench build. I am using plans and hardware from Benchcrafted and progress has been really slow. I started out in the middle of October with a little over 150 bdft of Hard Maple that I purchased back in the Spring of 2020.









I milled up the parts for the base to rough dimension and let them sit for a few days









I glued up the legs and front stretcher









I am using this build as an opportunity to learn how to use my hand planes so I got things to final dimension with my LN 62









Next up were the mortise and tenons. For the mostises, I used my benchtop mortiser for the majority of them and then a router and template for the large one needed for the front stretcher.




































More cleanup was needed from the benchtop mortiser than I would like so if I had to do it over again I would just use the router and template.

I didn't get pics of the tenons, but I used the tablesaw to cut the shoulders and the bandsaw to cut the cheeks. Philip Morley has a youtube video on this so I followed that method. Worked good. I had a hard time getting perfect shoulders off of the tablesaw and working the endgrain on that Maple was definitely a PIA. I really struggled to get the fit that I was looking for and got really frustrated so about mid-November I decided to just put the tools down until after the holidays.

I'm not sure how many hours I have into fine tuning my M&T's, but definitely more than I care to admit. Anyways, I finally got to a point where I told my self this is the best I can do and I finally had the base dry fit


















I still need to drawbore the side rails to the legs, but before I do that I decided to work on the leg vise. I first drilled a 3/8" through hole through the side of the leg for the criss-cross mounting pin and then I cut the mortise for it. I first hogged out most of the waste with a forstner bit and then cleaned it up with a router and template. 









I did the same as above for the chop, but I got ahead of myself and forgot to drill the 3/8" hole first and I also didn't hog out the waste with the forstner bit (definitely cuts down on the dust). Instead, I just mounted my template and started making dust. I thought I took pics of this, but I guess not.

I then drilled the 1-1/4" hole in the chop needed for the vise screw and then I mounted the chop to the leg via the criss-cross so I could mark the location for the 1-1/4" hole for the vise screw in the leg. My initial layout line was off by about a 1/16" so it was probably close enough, but I am glad I checked.

For the leg, I needed to cut a 2-5/8" mortise for the acetal bushing and a 1-1/4" through hole for the vise screw. I once again relied on the router and template for the mortise so I mounted the template, but I drilled the the 1-1/4" hole first before I routed the mortise.



















The mortise looks off-centered in these pics, but it's not. I think the camera must have just distorted it.










The bushing fits perfect. I wasn't able to drill the 1-1/4" hole all of the way through from one side so I had to flip and finish from the other side.










I wasn't able to find 12/4 maple and I didn't want to laminate it so I ended up going with Sapele for the chop. After planing out some defects it ended up at 2-1/2" thick. If you look closely in this pic you will see my through holes for the criss-cross mounting pin are off by about an 1/8" on the chop and a little less on the leg. It's pretty tough to drill a perfectly straight hole in an 8" wide board. The plans say to drill from one side and to not come at it from both sides. If I had to do it over, I might choose to use the retro version instead.



















Still a long ways to go before I am finished. I was going to use Walnut dowels to drawbore the side rails to the legs, but after doing some research I'm thinking a different species like Oak might be a better option. I know you guys were discussing this in some earlier posts so I'll have to go back and read those again.

Thanks for looking.


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## KelleyCrafts

Awesome Mike! Nathan/Earl, he's right on your tails!


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## drsurfrat

That is great, and it's long enough to make a blog, which would be easier for us to find later (hint hint)

-another MikeJ


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## MikeJ70

Thanks Dave. I was just over on your projects page looking at your bench and it looks like you might have a finish on yours so curious what you used? I'm still deciding on if I want to put a finish on mine or leave it raw.

Mike, yeah it's funny you say that. When I previewed my post I was thinking it's probably too long and should be a blog entry instead, but I decided to post it anyway. I'll see about copying it over. Since you signed -another MikeJ, would your last name happen to be Johnson?


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## Lazyman

One reason I am thinking about a finish is to make it easier to clean glue drips off of it and a little less likely that I will glue a project to my bench.


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## KelleyCrafts

Mike, ask 10 people about finish on a bench and get 15 different answers.

I used Osmo matte and I like it. Doesn't make it very slick which doesn't matter to much with all of the work holding options I have. Easy to add to spots where it scrapes off if I care to but I haven't yet. Lots of relatively deep scratches in that bench now. It's building its character nicely.


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## KelleyCrafts

That's why I did it Nathan. The wax type finish works great for that.


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## EarlS

Mike - I'm using the Benchcrafted plans as well. I'm writing a multi-part blog if you are interested. I haven't made the leg vise yet. It's on my to-do list for this weekend.

As you've found, this thread is also a great place to ask questions and see how others did things.

I used Arm-R-Seal on the base assembly. I'm using Watco on the top.


----------



## Mosquito

hell of a start Mike!

Like Dave said, TONS of options, so my opinion has always been get something you can get easily, and repair confidently

I was going to use Watco Danish Oil on my workbench, but in reality I've yet to do it, 10 years in… My excuses were as follows

I didn't do it initially because that much danish oil in my apartment didn't sound like something I wanted to do
Flattening the workbench would mean I'd have to re finish the top

But truth be told I've only flattened it twice in 10 years anyway, so I'm just lazy after getting out of the spare bedroom shops 6 years ago lol


----------



## drsurfrat

> ... Since you signed -another MikeJ, would your last name happen to be Johnson?
> - MikeJ70


Uh, yea.
At the last company I was at there were two Michael A Johnsons.
Maybe the next LJ Swap should be for Mikes, but we'd only have about 2 dozen…
Nah, I want Kenny in there


----------



## CL810

Great bench MikeJ!

I put Watco Danish Oil on my bench when I first made it and then a number of years later when I sanded it because I wanted to get rid of a lot of stains and what not. It's so simple, easy and quick. Wipe it on and rub off any remaining 10 minutes later and forget about it. Slickness is not a worry in my mind.


----------



## MikeJ70

> Mike - I m using the Benchcrafted plans as well. I m writing a multi-part blog if you are interested. I haven t made the leg vise yet. It s on my to-do list for this weekend.
> 
> As you ve found, this thread is also a great place to ask questions and see how others did things.
> 
> I used Arm-R-Seal on the base assembly. I m using Watco on the top.
> 
> - EarlS


Earl, I just read through most of your blog. I wish I would have read through it before I started my build. It probably would have saved me from some head scratching. What are your thoughts on the dog hole placement? Do you think if I move it in one or two laminates that it would make the tail vise install easier so it doesn't interfere with the tenon on the leg? How about the spacing? 4-7/8" seems like overkill. Would 6" - 8" be adequate?


----------



## EarlS

Mike - I would move the tail vise in a couple boards. That will make the dogs more centered on whatever you are working on. As the plans are now, the dog is only 1-1/2" off he front. Any work piece more than a couple inches thick will be way off center when tightening down the tail vise (or as Kenny pointed out, the wagon vise).

I mentioned that I plugged half of the dog holes starting with the one over the leg because I didn't see the need to have them so close together. The tail vise runs something like 12 or 13". IMO - that should be the spacing for the dog holes. I wound up with 6 dog holes out of 13 I started with.

Another little surprise was how the dog hold in the dog block lined up with the hole in the carriage. Mine was off by 1/4" or so. I didn't really spend much time trying to figure out where the problem originated. I'm sure with all of the changes I made I messed up a dimension somewhere. My solution was to chop out the back of the dog so it would fit the carriage hole.

If you move the tail vise in by a couple of boards, make sure you check over the tail vise cavity layout. I managed to get things off just enough that the screw was rubbing on the dog block. Take some time to get all of the dimensions worked out. The plans don't really provide them, especially the end cap detail where the instructions tell you to use it as a template on the end cap, bad idea. Use exact measurements for the dog hole center line and thread center. Once the thread hole was drilled I used the face plate to layout the bolt holes. I drilled the bushing hole to depth then drilled the screw hole thru the end cap.


----------



## MikeJ70

Thanks for the input Earl. I'll have to write some notes as it will probably be awhile before I get to this stage of the build.

I hope to get the drawboring as well as the holes for the knock down hardware finished this weekend. Then I'll be ready for final assembly of the base and after that it will be on to making the top.


----------



## controlfreak

My cheap plane stop seems to be a good solution.









And the full view









Works like a champ. The only negative is I need to store it somewhere.


----------



## Sylvain

> For those that made box joints on the cabinet - [...] did you also make box joints to attach the back panel? Also, how did you make the box joints for the top and bottom?
> [...]
> - EarlS


One can only use pins and tails at the end grain of the board.
It would most probably snap if used on the long grain edge. 
(see Paul Sellers demonstration on his 16 June 2020 Instagram).

So either panel in a groove or panel in a rebate.

If you want to make it very elaborate, make a frame with multiple raised panels.


----------



## MikeJ70

So I started a blog to document the build as I go and so I don't keep putting picture heavy posts on this thread. This weekend I worked on drawbore pegs so you can read about it here if you would like: https://www.lumberjocks.com/MikeJ70/blog/133264


----------



## EarlS

The dovetails on the drawer case took most of the weekend, but they are finished. Still getting used to the leigh D4 rather than the 18" Superjig. Took a little longer than expected but everything is tight. Since the DT jig is out, I might as well do all of the drawer boxes. So I guess I'll complete the drawer cabinet before I get to the deadman and tail vise. I'd also like to get the Nova Viking set up to drill the holes for the chop and deadman which means I will be making a storage cabinet base unit for the DP right after I finish the drawer cabinet for the bench.

My wife asked why I'm doing all the shop projects instead of making furniture for the house. I told her I'm practicing and getting back into a furniture building mindset. I also told her that was why the bench and drawer cabinet were so fancy.

One more night of doing taxes and then I can get back in the shop. Guess I should also write up a blog entry on the drawer cabinet build as part of the roubo bench build.


----------



## MikeJ70

Earl,

Definitely do a blog on the cabinet build. After seeing the one Dave made for his bench, I think I am going to make one as well. I've read that some people don't like them because they don't like having to bend over to get their tools, but in a small shop like mine you have to take advantage of every square inch of storage space available.


----------



## EarlS

Storage space is at an absolute premium in my shop as well. FWIW - I did the the cabinet design in SketchUp so I will have a complete model that you might be able to modify for your specific bench dimensions.


----------



## EarlS

Drawer case construction is almost complete, then on to the drawer boxes.

Dry fit:










Leigh D4 dovetail jig makes really nice, tight dovetails:


----------



## EarlS

Dave - where did you get your pulls?


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Amazon Earl. Not expensive compared to Brusso but not crazy cheap either but it's solid brass at least. Also the finger pulls are kind of on the small side but they work and I think you're probably more on the slim side compared to me.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

If you need a Shaper Origin file for them let me know.


----------



## bandit571

Those of you that complain about your shop being too small…..need to come visit the Dungeon Woodworking Shop, sometime…....


----------



## EarlS

Bandit - you do more with less sooner and better in less space with fewer tools than most of the folks on LJ.

Dave - now why would you do something like that??? ;+) I haven't even got the Nova out of the box yet.

I started out looking on Rockler for pulls - WAY overpriced. Amazon is better, about 1/2 the cost. Now I'm pondering whether to make my own version and incorporate it into the door front inlay design.

There might be some time tonight to get out to the shop if I'm not to stiff and sore from moving the eldest daughter into her apartment. I need to get started on the half blind DT's for the drawer boxes.


----------



## bandit571

Welcome to my world…


----------



## rad457

*Bandit - you do more with less sooner and better in less space with fewer tools than most of the folks on LJ.*
LOL! Especially all the experts that have not a Project too show


----------



## KelleyCrafts

> LOL! Especially all the experts that have not a Project too show
> 
> - Andre


This is totally me except I don't try to act like an expert most of the time.  I am absolutely horrible about posting projects. I really should contribute more than smart ass remarks around here.


----------



## drsurfrat

We know you make stuff, and the smart ass remarks definitely have their own value.


----------



## mminer61

I have been busy for the last two weeks but I finally got some time to make the tool tray for my Moravian bench. Now on to adding vices. (My wife says that I already have enough vices but, that is another story.)


----------



## KelleyCrafts

> We know you make stuff, and the smart ass remarks definitely have their own value.
> 
> - drsurfrat


Appreciate it Mike, not as much value as posting projects probably but I do what I can.


----------



## BlasterStumps

The bench is looking great Mark. I like that style bench. Are you working from plans or is that your design? Looks solid.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Hey Dave, I think you contribute quite a bit. Glad you are on the Forum.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

I agree with Mike, Mark. Bench is looking awesome and iirc you went with this mainly to be able to break it down which imo is the main benefit of this bench. I could be wrong, I can't keep track of everyone but I would be happy to own that.

I opted for no tool well on the current bench but have contemplated a spot in the back for chisels and such to slide into but the drawers probably make that unnecessary so I'm still on the fence.

Thanks for the kind words Mike in CO.


----------



## mminer61

Thanks BlasterStumps and KelleyCrafts. Mike, I am building the bench from Will Myers' Moravian workbench plans and video. Dave, you are right, one of the big benefits is that the bench can be disassembled but I also was drawn to the joinery. My old bench is made from 2×4s and plywood and had no tool tray. After working on that, I really wanted a tool tray. I will happily give up having to empty shavings out of the tray in order to have a place off the work surface to place tools. As you can see, my shop floor is concrete, and having bounced a few chisels off the floor, I am looking forward to having a safe place to put them while I work.


----------



## rad457

> LOL! Especially all the experts that have not a Project too show
> 
> - Andre
> 
> This is totally me except I don't try to act like an expert most of the time.  I am absolutely horrible about posting projects. I really should contribute more than smart ass remarks around here.
> 
> - KelleyCrafts


Not targeting anyone in particular at this time Just remembered a time someone was question someones advice, some one I had met, saw their shop, was aboard the boat they built, just made me call them out!


----------



## bandit571

Don't forget….a bench vise is a great 3rd hand….for doing a glue up…


----------



## EarlS

Bandit - you are only about a dozen clamps short. If you can see wood you aren't using enough clamps ;+)










You can never have too many clamps


----------



## Bearcontrare

Interesting bit of information for the "Moravian" workbench fans:
Watched Roy Underhill on YouTube, in an episode where he visted an historic German-American village in North Carolina.
He discussed the tools and workbenches with one of the craftsmen who demonstrates there. The first worknench they discuss is the now infamous "Moravian" style. The craftsman explained that "This style of bench is designed to be taken apart, so a jointer, or finish carpenter could take it to someone's home, and do whatever work was necessary right there." This expanation made perfect sense when we think about it in this context.
Pretty impressive that the same design is STILL relevant and in use some 200 years later!!!


----------



## Sylvain

When knocked down and put vertically against a wall, the Moravian workbench doesn't occupy more than about 3 square feet. 
That is why I made this kind of workbench for the son; I wasn't sure he wanted to keep it assembled.

No part is excessively heavy and the assembly takes less than 1 minute. The portability means one can install it outside weather permitting or move it from one room to the other when working on doors, windows, parquet and such. 
Although it is really portable, it is a real sturdy workbench.

and…one could also use it occasionally as a buffet table for a garden party and so on.


----------



## CaptainKlutz

Break down and store a work bench? Blasphemy!!
Then I would not have a flat surface to scatter all my tools across. :-(0)

Climbing back into my cave now, lurker mode re-enabled …...


----------



## bandit571

Just spent the last 2-1/2 hours working AT my bench…film at 2300 hrs….processing photos now…

Afraid my days of being a Traveling Joiner are about over….so the bench will just have to stay put…


----------



## bandit571

And…









Made use of both the end vise and an F style clamp..









Clamp the F style in the bench vise…then clamp the part with the clamp…


----------



## Sylvain

> Break down and store a work bench? Blasphemy!!
> 
> - CaptainKlutz


The son is not yet a woodworker but has home maintenance to do and otherwise has two small boys.
I nevertheless hope this will give the opportunity to the grand kids to try some woodworking.
The son didn't knock down the workbench after all. He likes it so much that he shows it to visitors. Even though it is far from a nice piece of furniture, being done with knotty upcycled wood.


----------



## Sylvain

> Just spent the last 2-1/2 hours working AT my bench…
> - bandit571


Bandit, I have always admired your productivity.


----------



## EarlS

I was almost as productive as Bandit, except I'm working ON my workbench.

I'm using 1/4" Masonite for the drawer bottoms. I managed to get 4 bottoms out of each 2×4 sheet (17" x 11-15/16"). Always good when they fit right on the first try. Then I glued up a couple more panels and it was supper time. Somehow that took 1-1/2 hours.

I meant to open the DP and check it out but that will have to wait until tonight (I hope).

One of the benefits to having a 35 minute morning commute with very little traffic is that I can think thru ideas for my projects and work out the best way to accomplish them. This morning I figured out how to space the drawer slides and boxes using some templates that will then become the substrates for the drawer fronts.

Another reason to get the DP out of the box. I'll need to drill some holes for the slides. Once that is done, I can pre-finish the inside of the case and drawers and start gluing things together this weekend.


----------



## controlfreak

> I have been busy for the last two weeks but I finally got some time to make the tool tray for my Moravian bench. Now on to adding vices. (My wife says that I already have enough vices but, that is another story.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - mminer61


As a Moravian fan boy I am really liking the bench, well done!


----------



## bandit571

Sometimes, the workbench has to go TO the work areas..









To cut them 19 degree angles for a stair railing..









Somedays, you just have to have a place to hang up the tools for a break…









After cutting 4×4x to length all day…










Still had the back porch to do….too.


----------



## BurlyBob

Over the breakfast table this morning my wife,'Stick in the Mud', gave me the go ahead to order the lumber for a Roubo workbench. I'm looking at another big project. I've been putting it off far to long. I've had the Benchcrafted hardware in the shop for six months. I'm spending this evening with a calculator figuring out what I need. Here's goes nothing!


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Congrats Bob! I had lumber and hardware for over a year before I started. It's exciting.


----------



## EarlS

I've had my Benchcrafted hardware for a little over a year. Almost ready to make the leg vise and finish things off. Should be done with the build by April. It's worth taking your time. I'm writing a blog to pass on my experiences, good and bad, with the build. Plenty of others have written blogs or good project write-ups on their build.

Making a roubo bench is almost as popular as making end grain cutting boards ;+)


----------



## BurlyBob

You know the more I talk about this bench the more excited I get to start it. Mine going to be 6'6" to 7' by 48" by 5" with a center tool well.
Sometime back I call a sawmill in Walla Walla about getting a big thick piece of Black walnut for end caps. I'm hoping to dovetail end caps, much like Matt Estela did on his bench. I've got his plans and Benchcrafted's plans. I spent several years developing my skill set to make my wife a whole new kitchen cabinet set up. I've made several cabinets, dressers and bookcases. I think I've finally reached the level to build this bench. The only thing I have to work on is Dovetails. Than starts next week.


----------



## MikeJ70

Bob,

It's a fun project. I am using the Benchcrafted plans and hardware also and I suggest you go to the Instructions page on Benchcrafted.com and download the construction notes for the bench build as well as install instructions for their vise's. They have been really good about answering all of my questions so if you start scratching your head don't hesitate to reach out to them.

For the houndstooth dovetails checkout Frank Strazza and Rob Cosman. They both have youtube videos that should help. Benchcrafted has a good tutorial on how to do just standard dovetails or condor tails as they call them.

I just finished the base build (except for the shelf ledgers) yesterday so here are a few pics:










Here's a closeup of the Sapele pegs for the drawbore and the recessed knockdown bolt:










Here's a shot of the sliding deadman runner. I copied Earl and attached it using tongue-and-groove:










Now it's time to start making the top.


----------



## BurlyBob

Mike I'm headed to my wood supplier here in a little while. I'm keeping my fingers crossed I can get enough beech for the project. It's a decent wood and more economical in my area.


----------



## rad457

> Mike I m headed to my wood supplier here in a little while. I m keeping my fingers crossed I can get enough beech for the project. It s a decent wood and more economical in my area.
> 
> - BurlyBob


LOL! met a guy who bought a lift of 2 X 6 beech that was delivered to lumber yard by mistake for the price of pine!


----------



## EarlS

Bob - William Ng also has a good video on making the houndstooth joint. I think it might be on the Benchcrafted blog page. I'm almost done with the drawers and have to make the leg vise.

Don't forget to take lots of pictures and post your progress here.


----------



## MikeJ70

> Mike I m headed to my wood supplier here in a little while. I m keeping my fingers crossed I can get enough beech for the project. It s a decent wood and more economical in my area.
> 
> - BurlyBob


Yeah, prices are crazy. I paid $4.50 bdft for 8/4 Hard Maple two years ago. My supplier doesn't have his prices posted online so not sure what he is at, but one of the other suppliers has it listed for $11.60. They have European Beech listed at $5.20 for 8/4 so I would most likely go with that if I had to buy material now.



> Bob - William Ng also has a good video on making the houndstooth joint. I think it might be on the Benchcrafted blog page. I m almost done with the drawers and have to make the leg vise.
> 
> Don t forget to take lots of pictures and post your progress here.
> 
> - EarlS


Earl, that's not a hounds tooth dovetail. See this link:


----------



## BurlyBob

Well the lumber is on the way. It should be here Monday. I ordered 240 Bf at $4.55 a foot. Last time I ordered any it was $3.00 a foot a little over a year ago. Only thing I an say is,'Let's go Brandon'.

I'm definitely going to check out those houndstooth dovetail videos.

Mike, I've got several books on bench building, the Benchcrafted plans that came with the hardware kit and the Matt Estela plans. I've got ideas for my bench which will include things from several bench designs.


----------



## bandit571

Still rumbling along..


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

> Earl, that s not a hounds tooth dovetail. See this link:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - MikeJ70


Beautiful work right there, thank you for sharing that link!


----------



## EarlS

> Earl, that s not a hounds tooth dovetail. See this link:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - MikeJ70


Do I get partial credit?

I totally bailed on DT's and went with a modified Japanese style joint. That sounds so much better than I wasn't sure I could make a hand cut DT so I went the easy route.


----------



## MikeJ70

Earl,

You get an A+ in my book for how your bench is turning out. I haven't decided yet how elaborate I am going to go. Those hounds tooth DT's are so sweet looking, but I just don't know if I have the patience to tackle those. That jig that William Ng uses makes doing a standard dovetail seem a little more accomplishable with my skill set. I do plan on using the bandsaw to cut the tails. Once I get to that point I'll do some practicing and see how things go. I usually just dive right in and end up way over my head, but I can't afford to waste any material. I had a really hard time finding someone with material over 8/4 so that's why I ended up using Sapele for the chop and that's also what I'm using for the end caps because that was about all I could find.


----------



## EarlS

I went with cherry for the legs, walnut for the caps, and oak for the top for much of the same reasons. I got all of the wood from a farmer in IL that had it out in the barn. After cleaning up the boards I spent a bit of time working out which size and thickness boards would work best for the frame, top, and caps. Just so happened that I had enough to cover everything. I did have to glue up some boards to get the right size for the legs.

There were even some extra scraps that will be made into a drill press stand, and a router cabinet. My goal is to use all of the boards in the pile before buying anything new. There are still some butternut boards and some red and white oak left. Best part of the whole thing is that they were really cheap which allowed for a bigger budget for the Benchcrafted hardware.


----------



## EarlS

The drawers are complete except for the fronts. I'm starting on them this weekend. Also need to make a door for the middle area with the pull out shelves. The leg vise is also on the list of things to do. I think I finally decided on what to do, but it might change as I get into it.

While I'm at it, I'm making a drill press stand and storage for the router table.


----------



## Lazyman

Nice! So nice in fact that I would move it into the house. It would work as a buffet in the dining room.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Looking fantastic Earl!


----------



## BurlyBob

Earl, how do you like those flip up caster. I bought a set quite sometime back. I'm fixing to use those on my bench.
I should have all the lumber sometime Monday.


----------



## HokieKen

Dead sexy Earl!


----------



## theoldfart

BurlyBob, I've had those casters for several years now and no complaints. I do unweight the end of the bench when I engage them just to make sure I don't pull out the bolts.


----------



## EarlS

I'm contemplating whether to add the bar for the flip up casters. Getting each one set or releasing it is rather difficult. Looks like a lot of folks use the DIY bar and really like it.


----------



## theoldfart

Earl, i found just slightly unweighting the bench works for both lifting and lowering. My bench is big and heavy and the wheel has been in use since I think 2016 with no issues. I did add the quick removal plates when I moved to CA in 2018. Briefly thought I might make another bench for assembly and use them. Kiboshed that idea quickly.


----------



## BurlyBob

I was hoping I'd would be able to use them daily. Just flipping them up and down as I need to move the bench morning and night. Unloading everything everyday would be a PITA. Guess I'm going have to figure out something else.


----------



## Lazyman

I just added some of those casters to my new bench and they work well. I added the quick removal plates but mostly in case it bugs me having them there. So far I don't feel the need to put the bar on them. I calculate that the bench weighs nearly 250 lbs (so far I haven't added a cabinet) and I am able to lift and lower it well enough one corner at a time.

I thought about making a mobile base like this. Here is another video of it in action. I think that there is a link to the sketchup drawing available in the description.


----------



## BurlyBob

Today's the day. I'm getting antsy for the phone call my bench lumber is here. Guess I'll just go out to the garage and putter around.


----------



## bigblockyeti

Sounds exciting Bob. Do you have a plan in place or just order a bunch of lumber and figure it out on the fly. I went and looked at some lumber this morning but it could take a while before it can be used.


----------



## BurlyBob

I got my bench today. Slightly more than I order but I'm not complaining.









Here's my bench arriving to it's new home.









Here it is tucked away for the night.

290 board feet of red beech. It's really nice clear wood for the most part. It's, 1 14/16 by 11 feet long.

Now the journey begins…


----------



## BurlyBob

Yeti, I've got plans that came with my Benchcrafted hardware and I bought Matt Estela's plans for his bench. I've also got three books that seem to be the standards to read. I'm definitely going to have a center tool well and that leg joint Estela has on his bench. I'm hoping to get my bench to come in around 4'x7'. The height is yet to be determined.


----------



## MikeJ70

> I m hoping to get my bench to come in around 4×7 .
> 
> - BurlyBob


Wow, 4'x7'? As in 4' wide and 7' long? That thing is going to be a monster. How thick is the top going to be? Are you planning for an actual tool well in the middle or the Benchcrafted gap stop? That's some nice looking lumber. Looking forward to your build progress so keep us updated.


----------



## HokieKen

4' wide is a beast of a bench Bob!


----------



## EarlS

4 ft wide -I'm jealous. My bench is 7'-6" long and 24-28" wide. Can't remember the exact width.

There were a few times during the build where I wished I could have gone back and done things differently. The dog strip placement was one, and the size of the cavity for the end vise was another. I also wish I had made thru tenons on the legs and the houndstooth dovetails on the end caps.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Meh, Earl it's a fancy bench without that stuff. Still a pleasure to look at and work at so I wouldn't worry to much about that stuff.


----------



## EarlS

I didn't think about thru tenons until I saw a bench with them. I cut off enough wood from the leg blanks that I could have done it. As for the DT's - basically, I got lazy and chickened out on them. You are right - the bench is a piece of shop equipment so I'm not losing sleep over those. Plus I'm adding some bling with the drawers. Almost have the drawer fronts finished.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Looking forward to seeing it done Earl. I imagine it'll top mine by the end even though every idea you had was mine to start with.


----------



## MikeJ70

> The dog strip placement was one, and the size of the cavity for the end vise was another. I also wish I had made thru tenons on the legs and the houndstooth dovetails on the end caps.
> 
> - EarlS


Earl, what would you do different about the size of the cavity for the end vise?

I finished milling up my top boards last night so next step is to route for the dog holes and then on to glue-up. I don't think I am going to follow Benchcrafted's specs for the distance between dog holes and instead will space them further apart. I also think I am going to place the dog hole strip in further from the front edge to avoid interference from the leg tenon. This will allow me to shorten the length of the top and maintain equal overhang on both sides. The dog hole they placed above the front right leg seems unnecessary and requires a lot of extra work so my new design will avoid that.

I'm still debating on if I want split top or solid and if I want end caps on both ends or just the one end for the tail vise. I'm planning on dovetailing the end caps just not sure if it will be a standard dovetail or a hounds tooth.


----------



## BurlyBob

I know it's going to be a wide bench. I'm 67 and this will be the only bench I ever build so I'm going to go all out. Go bigger or go home.

I'm going to have a lot of question for all of you so bear with me. I've built lots of cabinets, bookcases and dressers. This bench is something I want done perfect as it's going to be the 2nd most important piece in my shop. My table saw is #1.

Like I said 4'x6'6" with a 5" thick top. I'm thinking of using biscuits to align the top or should I go with 1/2" dowels?

I'm also thinking of thinning a piece of beech to 1/2", cut a 5/8" dado near the bottom of both sides for the bottom of the tool well. Yeah I know everyone complains about wood chips in the tool well. I've got a really great shop vac and some expensive hand tools. I'd much rather protect my hand tools by having them end up in the tool well than on my concrete garage floor. It only takes a minute or three to give a go with the shop vac.

Now here's another controversial topic…Square or round dog holes? Square looks cooler and might be easier in my case, to build.

Well, I'm headed out to the garage/shop to start the day.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Bob on a 5" thick top, 4' deep you will want a tool well because you won't get the top on with the weight of a single piece so go crazy.

I debated the round/square dog holes and went with round. So many more uses for round holes. So many more accessories. For example, setup right this moment on my bench is this setup using round dogs to pinch the jig and one holdfast to keep it from tipping forward. Works perfect, square ones look cool but it's a bench, mine is fancier than it needs to be but it's still a bench.


----------



## EarlS

> Earl, what would you do different about the size of the cavity for the end vise?
> 
> I finished milling up my top boards last night so next step is to route for the dog holes and then on to glue-up. I don t think I am going to follow Benchcrafted s specs for the distance between dog holes and instead will space them further apart. I also think I am going to place the dog hole strip in further from the front edge to avoid interference from the leg tenon. This will allow me to shorten the length of the top and maintain equal overhang on both sides. The dog hole they placed above the front right leg seems unnecessary and requires a lot of extra work so my new design will avoid that.
> 
> - MikeJ70


Mike - I don't know if I mis-read the plans and instruction notes or what, but I wound up having to fill in the interior end of the cavity, opposite the tail vise. I think I spent some time discussing the problem in the bench build blog.

I also filled in half of the dog holes after realizing that the tail vise could move 12-13" so I didn't need dog holes every 6" or so. I wish I had moved the dog strip back one row. It would have made the front rail of the tail vise easier and it would also allow the dogs to be more centered on the work pieces.

Dave - you know I want to be like you (it's either you or Kenny) so I shamelessly plagiarize your work. Now where can I get that Shaper Origin??


----------



## KelleyCrafts

You know where you can get it Earl, and I know for a fact someday you'll justify that purchase for sure.

How's that new drill press? That's a purchase I want to make. Will wait to see how bad the damage is at handworks before doing the drill press.


----------



## EarlS

Dave - the drill press is impressive. The chuck could be better as could the table, but both can be rectified. I bought a Woodriver table and fence then promptly returned them because they were garbage. I'll wind up building the table. Probably need to ask around about a good keyless chuck that doesn't add a lot of runout. So much better compared to the crappy PC drill press that had so much runout the bit looked like it wasn't properly seated in the chuck. I'll write up a review one of these days after I have used it more than a couple times.


----------



## HokieKen

Last two chucks I've bought, one for my drill press and one for my mill, have been Rohm Earl and I've been really happy with them for the money. If you want the best and don't care about the money, Albrecht. On a drill press though, that's just throwing money away.


----------



## MikeJ70

> Mike - I don t know if I mis-read the plans and instruction notes or what, but I wound up having to fill in the interior end of the cavity, opposite the tail vise. I think I spent some time discussing the problem in the bench build blog.
> 
> I also filled in half of the dog holes after realizing that the tail vise could move 12-13" so I didn t need dog holes every 6" or so. I wish I had moved the dog strip back one row. It would have made the front rail of the tail vise easier and it would also allow the dogs to be more centered on the work pieces.
> 
> Dave - you know I want to be like you (it s either you or Kenny) so I shamelessly plagiarize your work. Now where can I get that Shaper Origin??
> 
> - EarlS


I was watching a Rob Cosman video last night and noticed on his tail vise his carriage block has two dogs. I guess you could have just made your carriage longer and not filled in the cavity. That would also give the same adjustment capacity with 1/2 the dog holes.


----------



## controlfreak

I like the way square dog holes look but the round holes give me more options especially when holdfasts are considered.


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## MikeJ70

> I like the way square dog holes look but the round holes give me more options especially when holdfasts are considered.
> 
> - controlfreak


Man, now you guys have me back debating if I should go with round or square. Decisions, decisions.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

On my bench I put the "cool factor" up pretty high but not as high as "logic or practical'ish". Round honestly just makes more sense. That's why I have them. Obviously I'm a huge fan of a fancy bench so it's each to their own in my book.


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## HokieKen

For me just the fact that I could use the same holes with dogs and holdfasts was enough to sell me on round ones. Not to mention they can easily be added anywhere at anytime if a need comes up.


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## KentInOttawa

> I like the way square dog holes look but the round holes give me more options especially when holdfasts are considered.
> 
> - controlfreak
> 
> Man, now you guys have me back debating if I should go with round or square. Decisions, decisions.
> 
> - MikeJ70


Just make 2 benches.



> For me just the fact that I could use the same holes with dogs and holdfasts was enough to sell me on round ones. Not to mention they can easily be added anywhere at anytime if a need comes up.
> 
> - HokieKen


Yup.


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## EarlS

Had I put some rational thought into dog holes, I would have gone with round ones for all the reasons above plus the square ones are a PITA. Let me know if you decide to go with square ones. I have a bunch of left over ones (walnut) I can send you.


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## HokieKen

I can send you a bunch of round ones if you go that way. They're called dowels ;-)


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## HokieKen

In all fairness, there are advantages to square dogs to be considered as well. They won't rotate on you and they're stronger.


----------



## MikeJ70

Ken, how often do you have issues with them rotating and not holding your work? Definitely a valid point and something to consider. If I go round, I think I would go with the brass ones like Dave has. That should take care of the strength issue.

Dave, where did you get yours? Lee Valley? Did you drill your holes before glue up on the drill press or after with a power drill?


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## KelleyCrafts

Lee valley, most of mine are pop up dogs. My wife buys me a couple sets on occasion (valentines and things like that) so eventually they will all get the prairie dog ones. I have two of the longer brass ones to go with them to fill other holes as needed.

I couldn't decide on where my jokes would go and wanted to wait until my old school tail vise was installed so I used my shaper origin with a long router but to get me the first few inches down this way I could ensure they were all straight down and precisely the same distance from the edge and aligned with the tail vise and then a forstner the rest of the way.

If I planned better, I would have done the drill press but I was indecisive. I also have some holes in the back half of the bench, not as many but the origin was used for that too.


----------



## HokieKen

Not very often at all Mike but if I'm holding a thin, narrow board between dogs and running a plane transverse, it can slip. Or, often I'll use just one dog as a planing stop and if I push off to one side or the other, it can rotate on me. But neither happens often and is easily overcome if it does. I do have plans to add a bench stop so the second scenario becomes a non-issue.

As far as strength, I made my dogs from an Oak dowel 5+ years ago and have yet to break one.


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## BurlyBob

Okay i can see both sides of this dog hole issue. Round might be more practical, square fancier. What to do?

Today I spent quite a bit of time studying the Benchcrafted and Matt Estela plans. Estela's are metric! Trying to relate those to Benchcrafted with are imperial takes a little doing. I'm definitely doing the Estela leg mortise joint. It's taking some serious planning and decisioning on the measurements.

So here's a question that might bring some controversy. I'm seeing that Benchcrafted use bolts and barrel nuts to secure the legs to the rails. I'm wondering why I can't just draw bore everything and leave it at that. i mean if I ever need to, I could later add these bolts and barrel nuts. I'm just very resistant to drilling a bunch of hole in my bench. The fewer the better to my way of thinking.


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## MikeJ70

Bob, for the base, it is completely up to you if you use the knockdown hardware or go with the drawbore method. The knockdown hardware is nice if you ever move because it makes disassembly a lot easier. Benchcrafted mentions a little bit about this in their instructions but really the only difference is if you go with the knockdown hardware your mortises for the front and back stretchers only need to be about 1" deep. If you go with drawbore then they need to be 2".


----------



## BurlyBob

MikeJ, thanks that gives me some solace. I doubt I'll be moving any time soon. Honestly I've only got 2 moves left, at the most. I was an air force brat and we moved every few years. I've lived here longer than anywhere as a kid. I was in 8 different schools before I got out of high school.

Now I get to figure out how to work that leg mortise joint. I'm thinking that there will be enough leftover pieces form cutting the top and legs I can make a couple of proto type joints. I like to do a practice effort before tackling something new.


----------



## Lazyman

So far I am pretty happy with the square dog holes for the wagon vise, though I just made a couple of quick and dirty ones out of some scraps of pine so far so that I can use the wagon vise.

I finally got around to start putting the leg vise on my bench. I wish someone would have pointed out to me that the Hovarter hardware has to be inserted from the back side of the leg and that the shaft is longer than the space between the legs. I had to completely disassemble the vise mechanism to get it in place. It was either that punch out the draw bores and disassemble the bench. PITA.

Got the x-link installed but still gotta add some bevels and chamfer some edges. I haven't decided yet if I am going to add some bling with an inlay or carving.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Looking really nice Nathan. I vote for bling because you can.


----------



## Mosquito

My dogs are maple 3/4" dowel, and I broke one recently, after 10 years of use. It was the one in the wagon, and is still usable as it just started to split. I had two spare oak ones from before I got the maple dowel so I swapped it out. Otherwise mine have been good, even the one I've hit a bunch of times with the plane, using it as a thin stock planning stop.

I went with 3/4" round dogs cause they were easy to drill, easy to make dogs for, and I could use them for my gramercy hold fasts too. All my dogs are friction fit, and hold themselves in place when up or down with no other mechanical devices holding them in place. I had one start to get loose, so I just wiped it down with some water and that solved that problem


----------



## Bearcontrare

Plus one on the round holes for bench dogs. Made mine from 3/4" dowel, with notch at the top and coathanger wire spring..
Easy to make, work great and dirt cheap. Can't say I've ever had a problem with them.


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## MikeJ70

Nathan, it looks like you're on the home stretch. I like your idea of using a dowel to temporarily mount the x-link.

It looks like round dogs are the way to go. Easier to make and more holding options make it a no-brainer.


----------



## Lazyman

Yeah Mike, I thought I might not want the arm attached when I do some final shaping and as wide as it is and tight as the metal rod fits into the hole, it might be a pain to punch it back out.

Once I finish shaping the chop, I am basically done, though I will probably make a cabinet eventually. Since I used pine for the bench, I may use Doug fir to match this lathe cabinet.


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## Foghorn

> You know where you can get it Earl, and I know for a fact someday you'll justify that purchase for sure.
> 
> How's that new drill press? That's a purchase I want to make. Will wait to see how bad the damage is at handworks before doing the drill press.
> 
> - KelleyCrafts


I'm assuming you're talking about hand drilling the holes. When I built my bench many years ago, I first tried one of those drill press jigs for a hand drill. The one I had was a flexy piece of junk so I trashed that idea. I also found out my Makita, 3/8" corded drill was woefully inadequate. The only other drill I had at the time was a 1/2" Dewalt cordless. It would do about 6 holes in 3" maple with a 3/4" auger bit before I had to switch batteries but it had way more torque than the 3/8" Makita. I built a jig to hold the Dewalt perfectly straight and level out of some 1" x 4" boards. A 16" or so trough with a 12" or so board screwed to the bottom so I had enough length to hold it firmly in place by hand. Once I had the drill more or less perfectly square and level, I drilled a 3/4" hole through that 12" board and it gave me a drill guide to make perfectly straight holes if the description makes sense. Used my large LeeValley countersink to bevel the holes on both sides. I have many more tools now than I did at the time but it worked well for me.


----------



## Foghorn

> You know where you can get it Earl, and I know for a fact someday you'll justify that purchase for sure.
> 
> How's that new drill press? That's a purchase I want to make. Will wait to see how bad the damage is at handworks before doing the drill press.
> 
> - KelleyCrafts


I'm assuming you re talking about hand drilling the holes. When I built my bench many years ago, I first tried one of those drill press jigs for a hand drill. The one I had was a flexy piece of junk so I trashed that idea. I also found out my Makita, 3/8" corded drill was woefully inadequate. The only other drill I had at the time was a 1/2" Dewalt cordless. It would do about 6 holes in 3" maple with a 3/4" auger bit before I had to switch batteries but it had way more torque than the 3/8" Makita. I built a jig to hold the Dewalt perfectly straight and level out of some 1" x 4" boards. A 16" or so trough with a 12" or so board screwed to the bottom so I had enough length to hold it firmly in place by hand. Once I had the drill more or less perfectly square and level, I drilled a 3/4" hole through that 12" board and it gave me a drill guide to make perfectly straight holes if the description makes sense. Used my large LeeValley countersink to chamfer the holes on both sides. I have many more tools now than I did at the time but it worked well for me. I didn't have a drill press choice as I bought the since discontinued slab at LeeValley for less than the cost of buying the wood at the time.

- Foghorn


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## Lazyman

I purchased a set of Wood Owl bits for the draw bores and for when I get around to drilling holes for holdfasts. Those bits are fantastic. They drill almost as nice a hole as a Forstner but much faster.


----------



## controlfreak

I opted to use a brace and bit for my dog holes. My battery quit half way though so I had to finish the next morning.


----------



## Bearcontrare

Yep, I went the brace and bit way myself. The ORIGINAL "cordless" drill. Only the operator needs recharging at night. 8>D


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## EarlS

Like the proportions of your chop Nathan. How thick is it? Looks like 2-1/2"??

I intended to get started on the leg vise chop this weekend but didn't make it that far. Making 8 inlay drawer fronts and a door for the bench cabinet is taking a bit longer than expected. Plus I'm trying to build a stand for the drill press so I keep getting distracted.


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## Foghorn

> Yep, I went the brace and bit way myself. The ORIGINAL "cordless" drill. Only the operator needs recharging at night. 8>D
> 
> - Bearcontrare


Ha! Yeah, I likely would have used one if I had one at the time (I do now). 36 holes in 3" maple would have been a good workout!


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## Lazyman

The chop is 3" thick and 9.5" wide. I found a chunk of cherry when Woodcraft had a 20% all wood sale last year so I figure why not.


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## EarlS

> The chop is 3" thick and 9.5" wide. I found a chunk of cherry when Woodcraft had a 20% all wood sale last year so I figure why not.
> 
> - Lazyman


I think that qualifies you for an official "you suck" award. Mine will wind up being a mish mash of glued up boards.


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## MikeJ70

> The chop is 3" thick and 9.5" wide. I found a chunk of cherry when Woodcraft had a 20% all wood sale last year so I figure why not.
> 
> - Lazyman


I had a really hard time finding 12/4 of any species near me so I ended up going with Sapele for the chop and end cap. My chop ended up at 2-1/2" because I planed out some defects, but hindsight I should have just filled it with epoxy and kept it closer to 3".

Not much for progress this weekend. Family life got in the way and the time I did spend out in the shop I mostly just spun my wheels trying to figure out what to do next. This seems to happen to me a lot and I think it is due to thinking too far ahead. I get thinking about steps 4,5 and 6 when I should be focused on steps 1, 2 and 3. I started writing a script this morning so I find that gets me back on track. I should just start doing this from the start cause it would probably cut my build time in half.


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## EarlS

I have a whiteboard on the shop wall where I keep my notes on what I'm supposed to be doing next so I don't get too distracted. It also serves as a good place to put things like measurements that I need to remember. Easier than keeping track of a bunch of pieces of paper with scribbles on them.


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## Lazyman

I have this on the wall of my shop. It is very distracting.


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## EarlS

> I have this on the wall of my shop. It is very distracting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Lazyman


They are outside in the trees throwing nuts at the shop window. We have brown, grey, and black ones.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Can't stand those destructive beasts. Pulled 25+ gallons of leaves out of a chimney last week that had been blocked completely by their efforts. CO detector went off, saving the day.










New cap should be a sufficient deterrent.


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## bandit571

South end of Bellefontaine, OH has an all white Squirrel running around…...later this spring, he'll change back to all black….an import from Michigan?

Somewhere..there IS a workbench…









Might be under this mess?


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## MikeJ70

> I have a whiteboard on the shop wall where I keep my notes on what I m supposed to be doing next so I don t get too distracted. It also serves as a good place to put things like measurements that I need to remember. Easier than keeping track of a bunch of pieces of paper with scribbles on them.
> 
> - EarlS


That's a great idea Earl. I've been saving notes on my phone, but having a whiteboard would be so much easier to view and edit. Definitely going to borrow that idea.


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## Lazyman

I tried the whiteboard idea and 3 months later I noticed the things I wrote down and wondered if I did them. Instead of finding out, I took the white board down. There. Done.


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## BurlyBob

So far I've moved 'Brusier', 4 times. Today, twice and my back is darn sure feeling it. Tomorrow I start sorting and cutting pieces. Since I'm doing the Estela/David Barron leg joint, I'm going to cut the legs to rough length. The same for all the bench top. I've got to come up with 22+ pieces of lumber for the top at 1 7/8" x86". The biggest factor is the outside three pieces for the bench top. They have to perfectly matched to the legs. So I'm thinking I do the 1st 8 bench top pieces, get them glued up and off to the side. Then process the last 3 outside top pieces at the same time I do the legs so the joints fit precisely.

I'm really feeling the challenge of this project. It's a good feeling because I know if I pay attention to detail and take my time I'll get the bench I want. You know something else I appreciate? I'm am so very critical of myself. So I know I'll not drop the ball. Nonetheless, I'm feeling the stress and for once in my life it's a real good stress.


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## EarlS

Bob - we want to see lots of pictures.

Bandit - there is a white squirrel at Iowa State University in Ames that is supposed to grant students a good grade on their next test if they spot it. I keep asking my youngest daughter if she has seen it.

Nathan - I hope you used the wall space you freed up


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## HokieKen

If I did put up a whiteboard, my first task would be to hide the markers from my wife. I expect the list would grow each night as I slept…


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## HokieKen

Bob, I feel your pain Brother. I started my bench with a stack of Oak 4×8s that were 12' long









and worked from start to finish by myself. There was a lot of Ibuprofen consumed for the first few weeks ;-)

A little motivational stress is a good thing. And by all means go after your dream bench  I'd caution you to remember it's a workbench though so when you do make an "oopsie" (and you will, anyone who says you won't is a liar ;-p) just keep on rollin' and don't let it increase the stress level!


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## MikeJ70

> I d caution you to remember it s a workbench though so when you do make an "oopsie" (and you will, anyone who says you won t is a liar ;-p) just keep on rollin and don t let it increase the stress level!
> 
> - HokieKen


+1. I've definitely made a lot of mistakes. I've been able to fix/hide all of them so far. I think I mentioned in an earlier post that my biggest frustration has been with the mortise and tenons and I think that's because I don't have a lot of experience making them so I did a little experimenting with different ways to do it. It's definitely been a marathon of a project, but it's a once in a lifetime experience (hopefully) so I am taking my time to make it the way I want it.


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## BurlyBob

Mikej, that's going to be my strategy as well. I have a tendency to over plan and over build. Today I start sorting and planning what gets cut. I figure I'm going wear out a couple of pencils over the course of this project.


----------



## BurlyBob

Well I've figured out that I have downsize 'Bruiser'. I don't have enough lumber to give it a 5" top. Looks like 4 1/2" is the next best option. That begins tomorrow, again.


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## theoldfart

Bob, keep in mind that a really thick top does not play well with holdfasts.


----------



## revrok

> Ken, how often do you have issues with them rotating and not holding your work? Definitely a valid point and something to consider. If I go round, I think I would go with the brass ones like Dave has. That should take care of the strength issue.
> 
> Dave, where did you get yours? Lee Valley? Did you drill your holes before glue up on the drill press or after with a power drill?
> 
> - MikeJ70


Funny, I've never had a round bench dog rotate under pressure? My bench is really simple compared to some of the beauties I've seen you guys build, but I went with round dogs for holdfasts and simplicity. I honestly use the holdfasts more than my dogs. Hardly use my wagon vise at all anymore.


----------



## BurlyBob

I wasn't giving any thought to hold fasts. I just wanted a big damn beefy bench top like few others have. I always over build and always will. So I guess my 4 1/2" top will have to do, as I spent $1320 for the lumber I have. I really don't want to spend anymore. I've got a couple of pieces of 12/4+ lumber to buy for the end pieces and the leg vise.
That's going to cost a pretty penny. But it darn is sure going to look nice.


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## KelleyCrafts

Bob, he wasn't saying you need a thicker too. 4.5" is thicker than you need for holdfasts. Sometimes they don't work well in that thick but mine work fine and mine is just under 4.5".


----------



## EarlS

Bob - keep an eye on Craigslist for lumber. You never know what you will find. I got all of mine out of a barn and that included 12/4 walnut for a really good price.


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## Lazyman

I made my top 5", mostly because the best way to get good SYP lumber is to buy 2×12's, rip them in half and cut out the pith. I figure if hold fasts do not work well, I will just counter bore the holes from the bottom.


----------



## theoldfart

^This is the way to deal with a thicker than 4" top.


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## BurlyBob

Thanks for the advice. I've got what I've got in the garage/shop. So I'm just going to make it do. I know it will be more than others and it will work just fine. I was always just trying to be the big dog on the block. It's how I roll and always will. Go big or go home!!! Nonetheless 'Bruiser', will be an awesome bench. My goal is to make 'Bruiser' something I am truly proud of and something I am willing to display.

My Best,
Burly Bob


----------



## KelleyCrafts

I felt the same way Bob. Can't wait to see what you end up with. It'll definitely be a bruiser at your dimensions, wish I had space for something that big. Regardless, my bench makes me feel good when I walk up to it for sure.


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## BurlyBob

You know Dave, That's exactly what I want. When I walk into my shop, first thing in the am with a cup of coffee. I want to be proud of the work I put into 'Bruiser'. I want to be able to sit on my bucket scooter, look at 'Bruiser' and say, Damn Bob,you done good. So I'm going to make effort to make 'Bruiser' the perfect work bench!


----------



## CaptainKlutz

*BurlyBob* 
Fair warning: Starting lumber width will not be final bench thickness. Even with best lamination glue up, will lose 1/32-1/16" on each side making the panels smooth. If you are not careful with clamping, and induce a twist or warp; will quickly lose 1/8" or more, from each side making top flat/true. The bigger the lamination, the easier it is to lose thickness making it flat.

I started with 3" thick boards during lamination on my bench, and being a klutz had to remove a 3/8" total to fix a major glue up mistake thanks to hot weather and working too slow. Also got lazy making it smooth, so after a couple of trips across commercial wide belt sander, I was left with 2.5" as final thickness.

Bottom line: Don't get hung up on the thickness. Even 4" thick can be called a 'bruiser'. Better to work hard to keep it flat during glue up. :-(0)

Best Luck!


----------



## KelleyCrafts

You will be proud of it Bob and it'll inspire you to do better at every project following this one. Enjoy the journey.

Klutz is right, 4" is a great thickness so anything thicker is a bonus.


----------



## controlfreak

I flattened both the top and bottom sides of my top. I am sure that I took off at least a 1/2 inch of material. Lets just say I didn't build the tool tray until I finished flattening the top. Always planned on doing the string thing from corner to corner to double check but decided it is flat enough for my liking.


----------



## EarlS

Definitely put some serious effort into keeping the glue up as flat as possible. I wound up with a bit of a twist and had to make a router sled to flatten the top/bottom faces. My top certainly isn't dead flat, but it is flat enough for me.

I started with about 4-1/2" and wound up just under 4", which is OK since the top (white oak) weighs a ton even at 4". Losing ~1/2" of thickness didn't affect the look either. The top still looks like it is proportionally thick for the big beefy legs and frame. Like Dave said, I like to walk into the shop and see the sexy beast sitting there waiting for me to put it to work. Of course, I'm still finishing up the bling and haven't made the leg vise chop yet (maybe this weekend).


----------



## bandit571

Re: Glue up. Look into some cauls, across the top and bottom. 2×4s, stood up on edge, with a slight bow to them, so that when you clamp them in place, it will pull them straight. Maybe a set at each end, and a set in the middle…

Just a thought…..


----------



## Lazyman

+1 on using cauls. I used them and got my top glue up nice and flat so only required minimal planing. I only had to take less than 1/4" combined on both sides to flatten. Here is a good tutorial on making your own bow cauls using a hand plane. By doing the paper test, you can fine tune the shape and get uniform clamping pressure. I just used pine 2-by stock that were cuttoffs from milling the lumber from my top to size. Make sure you wax them or line them with packing tape so that you do not glue them to the top.


----------



## Sylvain

It is easier to have a non twisted top if one clamp first in the middle.
One has to control the absence of warping before the glue sizes.

I have used recycled wood and didn't bother to mill it all to the same width before gluing. 
I don't have any heavy duty clamps, so I glued the first 3 boards and thereafter one layer at a time.
The otherer side is more or less aligned because it was sitting on the clamp bars.
As one can see some layers are in multiple pieces.








The underside flattened:


----------



## Lazyman

Deleted . Wrong thread.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

I used biscuits or dominos on my boards before glue up. Put them closer to the bottom of the bench so flattening in the future wasn't going to make them appear. Worked well to keep things aligned.


----------



## KentInOttawa

> As one can see some layers are in multiple pieces.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Sylvain


This is reminiscent of a project that I did 35+ years ago, although this one is a far superior starting point.

I was making a pseudo-workbench/countertop thingy for my first house and I was pretty clueless. I reasoned that laminating the 2×4s on edge would be stronger than on edge, so I went that way. Then I did some odd stuff like not using any glue (wut?) and trying to align the pieces using 1/4-20 all-thread rods every 12" or so. This was before I had a planer or even knew what a hand plane was used for, so the results were comically predictable. Needless to say, it was neither flat nor true, and it bugged me for the next 5 years that I owned the place.


----------



## BurlyBob

Almost got the top pieces cut to rough length. I had to take 3 pieces back. They were just bad to cut up. So I'm so short a couple of piece for the top. I've got an idea and looking for some feed back. I'm thinking I'll use dowels in some of the leftovers and space them in the interior of the bench top. That way I can use up some of the leftover lumber and get the width I want for my bench top.

After getting everything cut to rough length I'm four pieces shy to get the width I want. I've got 14 cutoff pieces leftover, of which 12 will have to be used for the legs. Looks like I'm going to have to reorder a couple 4 more boards, maybe even 6.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

> … I m so short a couple of piece for the top. I ve got an idea and looking for some feed back. I m thinking I ll use dowels in some of the leftovers and space them in the interior of the bench top. That way I can use up some of the leftover lumber and get the width I want for my bench top.
> 
> - BurlyBob


I think it's a fine idea, and if done with ordinary care will not be something you think twice about a year after the bench is done.


----------



## EarlS

Now that you mention it, I used cutoffs in the middle, only I wasn't smart enough to use dowels. No one can tell since both ends are capped.


----------



## Lazyman

I used this joint to make it easier to avoid the gaps where I used short pieces. The hole is just slightly smaller than the dowel so that it pushes the joint together. Definitely made the glue up easier so that I didn't have to worry about the gap while making sure that everything else was lined up.


----------



## BurlyBob

I've done some studying and realize I can only use two of the cut off pieces as I need 12 for the bench legs. If I use the widest cutoff I can two piece for the bench top. That leaves me two pieces short of what I need to get the width I want. This wood is 1 7/8" If I can keep from taking to much on the joiner & planer I might get by with what I've got.


----------



## Lazyman

Bob, Are you still planning a 48" wide bench. My 30" wide assembly table is the maximum with I would want for anything but very large assemblies. My rule of thumb is that if I cannot reach the other side with both feet on the floor, it is too wide. 48" is like 2 benches attached to each other.


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## BurlyBob

Nate, I've gotten use to working on a plywood saw horse table. This bench is going to be the only work table in my shop. I'm going to make it fit for everything I do. I've been playing around with the height and have decided 35" is probably the best bet. I've seen and heard several way to figure it. Today I just stacked some of the 8/4 cutoffs and tried my #4 on the. 35" sure seems to be a comfortable height. No bending over to far, or fatigue in my, shoulders or legs.

I faced 3 side of a piece of cutoff on the joiner/planer and it came out at 1 3/4", which should get me real close to the width I want for the bench top. Tomorrow I've got a project at the daughter's house then it's back to joining one good edge on everything. Amazing how long that takes.


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## Sylvain

About workbench height, google:
"The ergonomics and design of an inclusive best-fit solution to workbenches". 
The second part addresses able bodied persons. 
It examines pain not only in the back but also neck, elbow, wrist, shoulder, …


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## Bearcontrare

I'm in agreement with Paul Sellers and Scott Landis. Workbenches should be higher, rather than lower. 
The old argument was that you needed a lower bench for hand tool work. Paul Sellers neatly proves that you do not need a short workbench, you need SHARP tools.
Your lower back will thank you for a taller bench.


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## bandit571

I'm 5'10-1/2" tall….top of my bench is 34" above the floor….

By the time one puts any boards ON the bench to work on them….and then the plane….Forearm is getting fairly close to level/parallel to the floor..

Most joinery work I do….I'm sitting down on the Shop Stool, anyway….


----------



## Lazyman

My old bench is actually an assembly/outfeed table that whose height was set by the table saw. It is just over 36" high and for most things it always seemed a little high for me. It was good for carving but when using hand planes I often felt like I need to build a platform to stand on, especially for flattening panel glue ups where I had to reach over into the middle of the bench. I made my new bench 34" tall. I figure I can experiment with some blocks to see if I find that I don't like stooping over.

EDIT to add: If you have ever watched Paul Sellers build a workbench, you will notice that he uses low saw horses or other tables to do that. I don't think that on any that I have watched, he used one of his high benches, though I am sure that is partly to demonstrate that you don't need a bench to build a bench.


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## Sylvain

Most of the time, Paul Sellers works with the piece in the vise even for planing long boards.
have a look at the video here (from about 1'22"):
https://paulsellers.com/2022/01/newest-piece-of-the-year/

So the thickness of the board is irrelevant for his working height.

I guess nowadays, authorities don't recommend work height anymore, as the boss has the responsibility to adapt it to each worker. The 38" recommended by Paul Sellers was once recommended for "medium work" which in my view correspond to joinery.

Minimising planing when prepping wood with a good blade in a bandsaw; see bottom of this post:
https://paulsellers.com/2021/06/prepping-wood-vii/


----------



## KentInOttawa

I was unable to secure a workpiece against the back edge of the bench to use the benchtop as extra depth for the plough plane fence, so I decided to add 4 more dog holes for my holdfasts. That should help.










I used a 923-14 brace with a freshly sharpened #12 bit from the top. The extra sweep was quite helpful and the sharpness made this task a pleasure. Seeing the spiral chips coming out felt just so good.










I used a 923-12 brace with an Irwin expansive bit to bore from underneath because the #12 bit was just a bit too long to be used on the underside of the bench. As you can see, the results were respectable.










For the record, this benchtop is at 34" which is about right for me (6'-ish tall) but it's also quite a bit too high for this type of boring. I found that I was on my tiptoes or kneeling on my tall shop (bar) stool.


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## Bearcontrare

I must confess that I bored the dog holes while the top was still on saw horses. Went until the lead poked through the bottom of all the holes. Flipped the top when that was done and completed the boring.
In using the bench, now that it is assembled, stock is held in position and holes bored horizontally. Not only do the chips discarge ont the floor, it helps one keep the bit straight


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## controlfreak

I got to remember to measure my bench height. I stressed over it until I decided it must be even with or lower than my table saw for outfeed and not block outfeed. I figured that I can always make it lower if needed. Turns out I am comfortable at the height whatever it is and may even repurpose the moxon vise or burn it to get it out of the way.

Just checked, just a shade above 35 1/2"


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## BurlyBob

Today I ran everything over the joiner and got one good edge. This makes the 6th time I've moved my bench around the shop. Tomorrow i start cutting for the legs and select 6 bench top board thickness with the legs for a tight fitting mortise.


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## EarlS

I consider my bench build to be a woodworking version of a workout at the gym. Lots of lifting, twisting, bending and all the other things you do at the gym. I probably moved the bench base around at least a dozen times and the top was constantly being moved or flipped until it was finally set in place.


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## BurlyBob

Earl, I'm definitely going to be putting the base on furniture dollies. I've had to much fun stacking and restacking all this lumber.


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## MikeJ70

Bob,

That Beech is some really nice looking lumber. One thing I would recommend while milling it up is to put some stickers in-between each layer when stacking to allow the boards to breath. This helps minimize wood movement. You can't prevent it completely, but it does help.

It's definitely a total body workout trying to mill up those large boards. I was feeling it these past few weeks milling up all of the boards for my top.

I just added a blog entry for my top glue up so check it out if you're interested.


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## KelleyCrafts

Another thing to remember when gluing the top Bob is to make sure grain direction is the same throughout so planing the top won't go against the grain in between boards.


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## BurlyBob

Dave, you exactly right. That might take a little doing as I noticed some wild grain when I ran things over the joiner.

Mike, I have been stickering the wood. One thing I've noticed that stack on the floor make a convenient step to get into the top of my cabinets. It won't be that way for long.

I'm still wrapping my head around the step by step process or lack there of and this mortise leg joint. My gut tells me to the side opposite the leg vise first and get the hang of things before I tackle the front side. As is my normal practice,
in the coming week I'm definitely going to build a prototype and work the bugs out of the process.


----------



## bladedust

Hello folks,

I'm thinking of building a workbench and getting a lot of great ideas form this thread so thank you all.

I have an opportunity to get 5" thick Ash for a possible workbench top so I was wondering how you guys feel about it as a material for building the bench. I appreciate your input.


----------



## MikeJ70

> Hello folks,
> 
> I m thinking of building a workbench and getting a lot of great ideas form this thread so thank you all.
> 
> I have an opportunity to get 5" thick Ash for a possible workbench top so I was wondering how you guys feel about it as a material for building the bench. I appreciate your input.
> 
> - bladedust


Wood species mainly comes down to personal preference, it's availability and a lot of times it's price. If you can get Ash for a good price, then definitely. There is a popular youtuber name Matt Estlea who built his bench out of Ash and it turned out beautifully. The only issue I personally have with it is it's open grained so I would think that dirt and grime would have more of a tendency to collect in its pores (but can't say for sure that it's an issue). I chose Hard Maple for my bench because it is the classic bench material, and I was able to get 8/4 for around $4.50 (2 years ago) but if I had to do over again I would seriously consider Southern Yellow Pine.

Do you have a bench style picked out?


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## BurlyBob

I chose beech for my bench and wanted a 5" bench top. It's looking more and more like I'm only going to get a 4 1/2" top. Tomorrow will tell the final story. I guess the biggest issue is that I want a bench close to 48" wide with a 6" tool well in the middle. Maybe over kill but it's what I want for my bench. You need to build your bench to suit your fancy! You are going to live with your bench for years. So make sure it's want you want and suits your fancy!


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## BurlyBob

So gang. I'm getting down to the serious part. Cutting to final length and width. I've cut the bench top 3" longer and tomorrow I will cut the leg 1/4" wider. You all got any ideas or preferences for rough dimensions. I've got the excess. I just don't want to short myself and start whittling it down to nothing. I can always go bigger but once it's cut it's hard to make it bigger.

In this bench design from Estela the leg mortise and bench top parts are the critical issue. Tomorrow I begin cutting the leg pieces and the the bench top. I've got one piece I have a plan. It's got some checking 8"-10" from one end. I'm going to use it in the section where the tail vise lives. I should be able to cut out the crap wood for it. after that it's all about cutting and thicknessing everything the same.

I over think things and stress about the details. That is until I get comfortable with the process.


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## EarlS

If you have the room, go bigger. Never heard anyone say their bench is too big. Same goes for thickness.

I finished the drawer fronts on the cabinet and they look really good. No teasers though. Keeping it under wraps until I post the project and blog. Got a good blog topic - attaching inset drawer fronts to drawer boxes that are smaller than the fronts.

The center door front is also glued up but I need to run it through the planer to get it down to 1/2" - gonna be a big pucker factor with every pass. It is 10" wide, 19" long and has probably 60 pieces or so with all kinds of different species and grain direction. That will be tomorrow's task.

I also finally settled on a deadman. I have a piece of walnut that has a lot of purple hues in it that has been drying for a couple years.


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## KelleyCrafts

Earl you have to get that thing done so I can see the final version of my prototyped bench.


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## BlasterStumps

My woodworking bench is no more. Top was badly twisted and I decided to tear it apart. I found that I wasn't using the workbench much anyway and decided it was just taking up space. So for my wood projects now I will just use the cutting table. I picked up a tool chest at HF to go in the location in the shop formerly occupied by the bench. The chest will give me a place to gather up and organize the small things.


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## Sylvain

> I found that I wasn't using the workbench much anyway and decided it was just taking up space.
> - BlasterStumps


This is probably a first in this thread.

So, all those planes in the background are a collection.


----------



## controlfreak

> Hello folks,
> 
> I m thinking of building a workbench and getting a lot of great ideas form this thread so thank you all.
> 
> I have an opportunity to get 5" thick Ash for a possible workbench top so I was wondering how you guys feel about it as a material for building the bench. I appreciate your input.
> 
> - bladedust


Hi Bladedust!
I stressed over the wood for the top. I found a 100+ year old red oak beam the seller would S4S into a slab but it was over $500 so I chickened out. In our part of the country SYP is readily available so I got 2X12's and ripped out the center and laminated together for the top. I like it, it's solid and has good grip and is easy to work. I was working on it last night and started looking at saw dings the are growing around my vise chop, I like them. They mean I am using the bench to make things. The legs are are combination of SYP and red oak (Moravian style)


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## Sylvain

> Hello folks,
> I m thinking of building a workbench and getting a lot of great ideas form this thread so thank you all.
> - bladedust


Don't overthink it. 
My only regret is having procrastinated too long.
I made mine with recycled pine (a Paul Sellers one) and construction lumber.
I made a Moravian one for the son mainly with recycled pine from a pic-nick bench and construction lumber.

Building a workbench is a great opportunity to acquire/hone skills and it is legitimate to try to make a nice one.
But don't forget it will be beaten if you use it.

Have a look at the blogs of Bandit571 to see what he does with his "one afternoon" workbench.


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## HokieKen

> I found that I wasn t using the workbench much anyway and decided it was just taking up space.
> - BlasterStumps
> 
> This is probably a first in this thread.
> 
> So, all those planes in the background are a collection.
> 
> - Sylvain


It probably is a first  I can say for sure though that Mike knows how to use those planes and does so. It's just another example of how everyone finds their own methods as their skills evolve. And shops evolve as a result like in this case ;-)

I am curious though Mike, what is the "cutting table"?


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## Mosquito

Yeah, I've been thinking about ditching my bench and doing back to my workmate too.

Erm, no, no I'm not lol


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## HokieKen

LOL. Nope, me neither. My bench is used constantly and in lots of ways for both metal work and wood work. Not to mention butchering deer in the fall, a prep station when I smoke meat, a gift-wrapping station at Christmas…


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## BlasterStumps

If those planes are a collection, they are not much of one. : ).



> I found that I wasn t using the workbench much anyway and decided it was just taking up space.
> - BlasterStumps
> 
> This is probably a first in this thread.
> 
> So, all those planes in the background are a collection.
> 
> - Sylvain


----------



## BlasterStumps

This is what I am calling my cutting table. I think it has enough functionality for what I do plus the top is fairly flat. 


















It doesn't have a vise on it but it has track that I can use my Kreg clamps in.

If I build another woodworking workbench some day, it will be made out of something other than HD lumber. I've got some boards stacked and stickered in my garage that i am planning to use on another bench. Might not use them for the top but they should be dry enough to use for the legs and stretchers.


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## HokieKen

That'll certainly work Mike. I wish I had room to put a table like that in my shop in addition to my bench!


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## controlfreak

^^^That's an interesting concept, room in a shop.


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## BlasterStumps

One more picture to show how the frame of the cutting table is put together. All 3/4 plywood so it will stay flat. The top is sacrificial mdf so if I damage it, it can be just taken off and replaced. The three pieces of fence on the back side all slide vertically. Its pretty simple but works for what I need at this time.


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## Lazyman

My dilemma right now is whether to eliminate my old assembly/outfeed table that used to serve as my bench to free up some floor space. It has an laminant top that is good for messy work and glue ups. So easy to pop or scrape off glue drips and I don't worry about oil or other messy stuff because I can use Simple Green to clean it. One problem is that the shelf and area below does provide some storage but I can probably find an alternative for most what is down there, especially if I purge some stuff that never gets used. If I do get rid of it, I may just keep the top, which was salvaged from an old Office Depot desk, to lay on top of my new bench for those messy jobs.


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## BlasterStumps

i understand the need to optimize your use of floor space Nathan. My workshop is 14 wide and 24 long. Although I know there are folks on the forum here that have smaller work spaces than that, I still find it a challenge to organize and keep the tools from just becoming a jumble. If something is a waste of space, it may go the way the old bench did.

I like to think that I subscribe to the theory, a place for everything and everything in it's place. I keep working on it but I know I will probably never get it to that point. : )


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## HokieKen

> ...If I do get rid of it, I may just keep the top, which was salvaged from an old Office Depot desk, to lay on top of my new bench for those messy jobs.
> 
> - Lazyman


I have an old countertop remnant from when my uncle remodeled his kitchen about 15 years ago for that very reason. Not for glue-ups but for food-duty. I lay it on my bench and clamp the back corners and use it for butchering and food prep. When I'm done, I scrub it down with soap/water/bleach and stand it up in a corner. Keeps my bench clean and keeps my food prep table clean for food.


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## Sylvain

> This is what I am calling my cutting table. I think it has enough functionality for what I do plus the top is fairly flat.
> - BlasterStumps


Sorry for the "collection" comment.

Is that a track rail for a saw vertically?


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## BlasterStumps

No problem Sylvain. Yes that is a track standing up. It is hinged at the back of the table and on a vertical sliding piece so when it is laid down on the piece to be cut, it can adjust to the height by itself. There is also a fixture on the front edge of the table to hold the track steady and in the correct height according to what is being cut.

Anyway, here is a picture of the table from the back side.

The pictures of the bench I have shown are a bit old now. When I am done picking up and cleaning up stuff maybe I can show what the shop looks like today. Never ending changing going on. : )


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## BurlyBob

Here's photos of today's efforts. Everything is cut to rough width and length. Tomorrow I'm going to trim up a few left over pieces and dowel on more material to get the bench top parts to the correct width.





































Like I'm mentioned elsewhere tonight. I've got a Jessem table saw hold down unit. It worked wonders on that lumber as did the roller unit I used to support the board as ran them thru the saw blade.


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## BlasterStumps

Wow BurlyBob, some good progress there. If I was close to you, I would come give a hand moving the pieces of top around after glue up. Don't hurt yourself. All the best with the glue up.


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## EarlS

That is a lot of really nice looking boards. That will be a beast of a bench. With such a wide top you might be able to have storage drawers on both the front and back of the bench. IIRC I also saw one version that had a built in shelf between the legs on whichever end the tail vise was on.

Looks like you have the same TS that I except for the Beismeyer fence. I have a Unifence with the Jess Em hold downs as well.


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## MikeJ70

That's some great progress Bob. Keep it up and you will finish before I do (I started in October). What's your glue up plan for the top? Did I see you mention you are using dowels for alignment? You definitely want something to keep the laminates from moving too much when clamping.


----------



## controlfreak

Cauls are what I used to keep movement to a minimum on the laminated top. Not perfect but limited my plane strokes to flatten.


----------



## HokieKen

Excellent progress Bob! That's shaping up to be a beast


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## KelleyCrafts

That is going to be an insane beast! So much room I would have trouble not setting crap on it all the time. Wish I had the space for something like that. Looking forward to more progress Bob.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Can't remember if it was here or the swap thread when we talked about the different moxon hardware but posted last night was Cosman and the woodriver hardware and an interesting twist with a spring involved. It looks like the hardware spins nicely so it's probably worth the $100 compared to the benchcrafted stuff.


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## EarlS

Under cabinet door front teaser (a.k.a. lipstick)









Whew it didn't blow up going thru the planer.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

If that's going to be under the cabinet door I can't wait to see what the cabinet door looks like. 

Definitely some overkill. Looks great man. Can't wait to see the rest.


----------



## BurlyBob

Earl that is a really beautiful piece.

I managed to get 4 more bench top pieces cobbled together. I posted photos on Moke's thread. Hoping tomorrow to make a little more progress.


----------



## MikeJ70

So how flat is flat enough? I was able to run both of my top sections through my planer last night and for the most part it turned out pretty good. The first few passes were done on the sled so I could shim it so the sides would be square to the top. It took 3 light passes for each section to get the first side good.

Then I ran them through to take care of the other side. After each section was even across the length and width, I stopped and checked with my straight edge. They both looked good so I brought each section down to about 4-1/16" (I probably should have stopped at 4-1/8").

I checked again with my straight edge and if I run it parallel it looks really good, however, if I do diagonal, then I am getting some low spots so it looks like I have some twist. I got out the feeler gauge and it looks like the worst spot is about .020". I checked the sides for square and the middle looks good but both ends our out a little so it looks like I have some hand planing to do.

Just wondering how much tolerance do you guys go by? I know perfect is the goal, but how achievable is that?


----------



## HokieKen

> Under cabinet door front teaser (a.k.a. lipstick)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Whew it didn t blow up going thru the planer.
> 
> - EarlS


That's fabulous Earl! Something like that anywhere near my bench would look like lipstick on a pig.


----------



## HokieKen

> So how flat is flat enough? I was able to run both of my top sections through my planer last night and for the most part it turned out pretty good. The first few passes were done on the sled so I could shim it so the sides would be square to the top. It took 3 light passes for each section to get the first side good.
> 
> Then I ran them through to take care of the other side. After each section was even across the length and width, I stopped and checked with my straight edge. They both looked good so I brought each section down to about 4-1/16" (I probably should have stopped at 4-1/8").
> 
> I checked again with my straight edge and if I run it parallel it looks really good, however, if I do diagonal, then I am getting some low spots so it looks like I have some twist. I got out the feeler gauge and it looks like the worst spot is about .020". I checked the sides for square and the middle looks good but both ends our out a little so it looks like I have some hand planing to do.
> 
> Just wondering how much tolerance do you guys go by? I know perfect is the goal, but how achievable is that?
> 
> - MikeJ70


There are as many different answers as people you ask Mike. For me, flat enough is when any gaps under my 3' straight edge are minimal and when there's no twist detectable with my winding sticks. When I did the final flattening on my bench, I ended up with a very low spot on the front left corner. But otherwise I was happy with the rest so I left it. For me, the left end of the bench is where I lay tools and stuff. I rarely use it as a working surface. So I decided having a low spot on that corner was preferable to having to remove another 1/32" or more from the rest of the bench. On the other hand, if that low spot were on the right corner or in the center of the bench, it would have been a big issue for me because those are the places I flatten stock and assemble projects. So not only is "how flat" a consideration but where it's not flat can come into play as well.


----------



## KentInOttawa

Regarding how flat…

1) What Kenny said; and

2) Can you set it up and use it as it is for a bit? If it gives you trouble, then it needs to be flatter and you will understand what and where needs to be trimmed more. If it doesn't give you any issues, then you have your answer.


----------



## Sylvain

So how flat is flat enough?
It seems it depends on what you are working on and how you work.
Paul Sellers used to have a well beaten workbench but then decided to re-flatten it for picture frame making.

But then, for him, most of the time, the workbench is a vise support.
have a look at the video here (from about 1'22"):
https://paulsellers.com/2022/01/newest-piece-of-the-year/

Nevertheless, you will notice that the resulting table is nice and flat.

Until now, I have found my workbench flat enough for what I do and how I use it.

To obtain a flat surface, one has to plane in three different directions.
Planing in only two directions might end up in a "ruled surface" 
see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruled_surface#/media/File:Hyp-paraboloid-ip.svg 
One will notice that the twisted surface in the illustration is obtained with straight lines in two directions. Planing in a third direction would remove the twist.

0.02" is quite small, If you nevertheless decide to take some shavings with a hand plane, use a very fine setting. Otherwise you might be chasing your tail.


----------



## CL810

There must be something about front left corners as that is where I have a low spot as well.

1/64" =.0156. I wouldn't worry about it now except to identify exactly the area affected. Then, as you use your bench you'll learn quickly if it's affecting your work and how often.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

At just over 1/64" I would say that's good. The wood that makes up your bench will move more than that through the seasons unless the top is all end grain.


----------



## EarlS

Give the top a light sanding, run your hand over it. Unless you can feel any high or low spots leave it alone. Sounds like you shouldn't feel anything.

I routinely run my hand across the top of the bench to see how it is acclimating to the shop. There are a couple new cracks in a few boards and there are a few places that might need a light touch up later this spring after the humidity and temperatures come up but nothing that would cause problems with my work. At this point, I'm more interested in deciding where I should poke some 3/4" holes in the top for a Veritas holddown clamp

Things are progressing - the sliding deadman is complete and the first coat of finish is drying. I'm gonna take a bit of a detour and make some swap items for the Screwdriver and marking/layout tools swap.


----------



## bandit571

> So how flat is flat enough? I was able to run both of my top sections through my planer last night and for the most part it turned out pretty good. The first few passes were done on the sled so I could shim it so the sides would be square to the top. It took 3 light passes for each section to get the first side good.
> 
> Then I ran them through to take care of the other side. After each section was even across the length and width, I stopped and checked with my straight edge. They both looked good so I brought each section down to about 4-1/16" (I probably should have stopped at 4-1/8").
> 
> I checked again with my straight edge and if I run it parallel it looks really good, however, if I do diagonal, then I am getting some low spots so it looks like I have some twist. I got out the feeler gauge and it looks like the worst spot is about .020". I checked the sides for square and the middle looks good but both ends our out a little so it looks like I have some hand planing to do.
> 
> Just wondering how much tolerance do you guys go by? I know perfect is the goal, but how achievable is that?
> 
> - MikeJ70


First of..leave them feeler gauges in the drawer with the rest of the Ignition tools…you are dealing with WOOD, not steel plate.

IF the straightedge ( I used a good 48" level) does not rock on any spots…you are good to go..you need to look at any high spots, first…..a few small dips here and there will NOT matter…..it is those high spots that matter, in that a work piece has to rest on them..it won't be stable….low spots might even tend help the part to stay put.


----------



## MikeJ70

Thanks for all of the feedback.

Sylvain, that definition for a ruled surface is exactly what I m dealing with. I checked on my lunch break and if I go diagonal in the opposite direction where I have the dip there is a hump.

My biggest concern right now is that I don't go in the opposite direction when trying to get it perfect. For now, I'll take down any humps I find and then leave well enough alone until I have it all assembled and use it for a while.

Next up is drilling dog holes in the dog hole strip before I glue that on and then cut both sections to length. Then the fun really begins with adding the end caps. I really want the hounds tooth dovetails, if for no other reason the challenge of it and to prove to myself that I am capable. I'll do some test pieces and see how it goes before I make any final decisions.


----------



## controlfreak

All this talk I am wondering if I even really need to to the string test and strait edge test followed by winding sticks. Ignorance is bliss.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

I've never flattened my bench. It has a couple of significant low areas, but nothing that's impacted any work that I do at the bench.


----------



## theoldfart

Benches are supposed to be flat?

Who'd a thunk!


----------



## rad457

? Mine seems Flat, remember running the LN #102 over it (The Heavier Brass one!)


----------



## BurlyBob

Still working on getting mine together. Tomorrow I start facing everything on the joiner. I've got everything cut to rough length and thickness. I figure the bench top will trim down to 21"-22" on either side. It's looking like I'll be finishing real close to the 48" I wanted including the center tool well. Life is good.


----------



## DavePolaschek

> Benches are supposed to be flat?
> 
> Who'd a thunk!


Well, the piece of plywood that makes up most of my bench top was flat when I bought it. So my bench has been flat at least once. ;-)


----------



## theoldfart

I like your logic Dave.


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## Lazyman

What is flat after all-we live on sphere that distorts time and space.


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## BurlyBob

I'm just hoping to get my bench top smooth and reasonably close to being flat. I've been working on a saw horse plywood table for years. This new bench will be a big step up, no matter the issues!


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop

I need to picture what I have… stand by….


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## HokieKen

My first bench was a piece of 3/4" plywood with leftover hardwood flooring nailed on top. It was flat and stayed flat for the few years I used it. When I started using hand tools and had to chase the bench around tge shop while planing was when I decided something more substantial was in order. For a power tool and assembly bench though, it worked just fine.


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## Bearcontrare

I wouldn't OVER-think the flatness of a workbench top. Thomas Chippendale, Thomas Sheraton and Duncan Phyfe did some very passable woodworking WITHOUT using laser beam, infra red, digital micrometers to ensure their bench tops were level within a gazillionth of an inch.
Just something to consider before stressing about how flat your bench top might be….


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## BurlyBob

Just about ready to start gluing up the top. I'm headed out to glue up a couple of boards before I start running things across the joiner/planer


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## EarlS

Teaser time. just finished the bench cabinet and sliding deadman



















Now for the leg vise.


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## theoldfart

You just brought Bling too a whole new level!

I'd be afraid of just scratching it.


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## BurlyBob

That is flat out awesome!


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## EarlS

I already scratched it and put some dings in one of the drawer fronts when I dropped while I was assembling everything. Fortunately it didn't break


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## MikeJ70

> I already scratched it and put some dings in one of the drawer fronts when I dropped while I was assembling everything. Fortunately it didn t break
> 
> - EarlS


I thought I was the only one who did stuff like that.

That's a cool looking cabinet Earl. Where did you get the inspiration from?


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## bandit571

Random Work Bench in Action Photo..


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## bandit571

Random Bench in use picture..









A bit of re-saw work, today…with a plane to clean it up..


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## HokieKen

Jimminy Christmas Earl. You are an arrrr-teest my friend. That's fabulous man. And looks right at home on a workbench if you ask me. There's no reason a man's bench can't inspire him. It doesn't have to, but there's no readon it shouldn't!


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## Lazyman

Pretty sweet Earl. I'd probably turn that bench into a buffet in the dining room.


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## KelleyCrafts

Very nice Earl! I want to thank everyone for coming to the dress rehearsal for Earls bench when I posted mine and everyone gave me generous comments. I appreciate you all!

Get it done Earl!!! I wanna see the whole thing.


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## EarlS

I decided not to bling out the leg vise chop. It would have made everything look lopsided so I'm going with cherry to match the legs. There are just enough thick pieces of cherry left to glue up a blank for it.

Looks like I need to use the good camera rather than the phone for the project pictures. The pictures look really washed out.


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## Mosquito

You could try covering the window up that's behind the bench too, that may help the phone pictures (or take pictures when it's not as bright outside). At least it looks like a window lol


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## BurlyBob

Morning all. I'm struggling with the decision on buying a Festool Domino cutter for this bench project. Is it worth the cost versus how much use I'll get out of it?


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## KelleyCrafts

What part of the build are you using a domino on Bob?


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## BurlyBob

The biggest job would the aligning the the various glue ups, bench top, legs and stretchers. I've got a biscuit joiner but I'm not a get fan of them. I'm still going to try and make a jig to use my router to cut slots for something similar to dominoes.


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## KelleyCrafts

I think the domino is a great tool Bob, I have one and I did use it to align the bench top glueup on my build but it wasn't necessary. Biscuits would have been just fine and that's what I suggest if you already have that on hand. If you were wanting a domino anyway and you needed to justify it I can totally change my answer to "you need one for this build".


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## Sylvain

> The biggest job would the aligning the the various glue ups, bench top, legs and stretchers.
> - BurlyBob


If you plane/thickness each board before glue-up, alignment is an issue.
If you plane/thickness the assembly after glue up, it isn't. 
(taking into account the the faces to be glued together have to be smooth and without cup/hump).


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## HokieKen

I use biscuits for large glue ups sometimes. The key is to sort through your biscuits and find the ones that fit snugly in the slot. Because of how they're made, there can be as much as .020" difference in the thicknesses. They will expand and fill the slot once the glue soaks in but often you already have clamps on by that time.


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## MikeJ70

> The biggest job would the aligning the the various glue ups, bench top, legs and stretchers. I ve got a biscuit joiner but I m not a get fan of them. I m still going to try and make a jig to use my router to cut slots for something similar to dominoes.
> 
> - BurlyBob


If you think you will use it for other projects and you have the funds, I'd say get it. If not, there are a lot of other ways to accomplish what you want to do. Biscuits are fine for the top, but I wouldn't use them for the stretcher to leg joint. Either traditional mortise and tenon, or floating tenons with a router. The Domino would most likely be a lot faster, but only you can decide if it is worth the cost or not.


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## rad457

Thinking out loud, wonder how much wood a person could buy too use as Cauls for the price of a Domino?


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## KelleyCrafts

No need to get practical around here Andre, these are workbenches we're talking about. Not a dining room table!


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## bandit571

Hmmm, try again..

One idea: 2 grooves on the faces of the 2×4s, about 1/3 of the way from the edges. Sized to hold plywood splines. Thickness of the splines depends on what you have on hand…Instant alignment. And, since you will be adding end caps to the top…splines remain out of sight. Grooves can be made on the tablesaw, BTW…

As for cauls….Lowes sells 2×2 Treated railing spindles….One "bundle" should provide enough cauls. use in pairs. IF the glue does happen to stick to them…hey, you were going to plane the surface anyway….one whack with a mallet to dislodge them…


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## BurlyBob

About cauls, I was using strips of 3/4" plywood for some of those strip wood projects I posted. My thinking was that plywood would not bend if stood on edge. Seemed to work okay for those small projects. I might be laminating 2-3 pieces for this bench. Maybe 2 1/2" to 3" strips.

I made a little progress to day and had to repair my joiner/planer. I had to use a few washers as shims to get the fence properly situate. Right now all clamped up the bench top is sitting at 22 3/4" on either side. I'm pretty sure it will thin down to somewhere between 22"-21". That will be just fine for my needs.

Tomorrow I get serious about gluing up the bench top. I'm going to give that joiner/planer a work out. After I get the 6 best piece for the outside edge and that wedge mortise joint. I'm going to process the other pieces and glue them up in stacks of three pieces. Then glue up 2- three piece sections, then add the third. The last phase will be the sections for the leg mortises. I'm sure I've got another week watching glue dry.


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## Sylvain

Gluing stacks of 3 pieces means you need very strong clamps.
I don't know what clamps you use. I have only light clamps. I have no use for strong clamps.

Gluing 3 pieces together with light clamps is not an issue but thereafter I have glued one board at a time.

Now that I think of it, I could have started with the 3 middle boards and thereafter glued two boards at a time, one on each side of the middle stack.
It would take 4 days for 9 boards, 3, 5, 7, 9 boards, assuming waiting one day cure time.


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## EarlS

I glued 2 stack of 3 boards then ran them thru the planer then glued them together . After gluing the 6-pack, I ran it thru the planer as well, then added more boards to the sandwich. I finally ran out of planer width (13") but by then I had the front and back sections glued up.

Somewhere along the way I decided to forgo the middle tool rack and split bench.

Gluing the front and back section together was challenging, to say the least. There was no chance of pulling things together tightly if the glue faces didn't match up perfectly. Same with trying to take out any twist or bending. As a result, there were a few places that needed some wood filler to fill the gaps. Still, everything worked out in the end and the top is solid and flat enough for me.


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## HokieKen

Splitting your top into separate glue ups is nice because they fit through the planer. But of course you still have to flatten them after the final glue up. Hooray for hand planes and/or router sleds 

I'm sure me or someone has mentioned it already Burly Bob but you'll thank yourself later if you make sure the grain is running the same direction in all your boards when you glue them up. If you're using hand planes, it'll make the final flattening much easier on ya.


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## Sylvain

To have good mating surfaces between two slabs, one can use the Japanese suriawase technique:

__
http://instagr.am/p/Bwz3pOWAPYu/
Push the two slabs one against the other and saw between them.
If necessary start with a rough saw push them again and repeat with finer saws.

The surfaces might not be flat and straight but they will match perfectly.
In fact it is a way to match two curved boards as shown here (second picture):

__
http://instagr.am/p/BxeUBneD2TF/

For a straight seam, it also works with a circular saw, if the saw cuts deep enough.


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## controlfreak

> As for cauls….Lowes sells 2×2 Treated railing spindles….One "bundle" should provide enough cauls. use in pairs. IF the glue does happen to stick to them…hey, you were going to plane the surface anyway….one whack with a mallet to dislodge them…
> 
> - bandit571


I ripped 2×4 in half and planed the taper or bow on them. A strip of packing tape works like a champ to prevent glue bonding to the caul. Still have them


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## BurlyBob

Today sucked. Only got 4 boards cut to width and then tool maintenance issues popped up. Tomorrow is also going to be a lost cause. I've got a funeral I have to attend at 11am. That pretty puts a big hole in the day you can't get out of.


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## KelleyCrafts

Bob, let's be honest here, are they really going to know you skipped out on their funeral? Just sayin.

I tell my wife all the time not to waste people's time when I die. What a crappy thing to waste a day over.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop

The top of my bench.










Well, the 'least flat' end of it anyay.


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## BurlyBob

I gave up on my genius idea of using my router to slot for loose tenons like a domino. Just couldn't keep cutting straight and it was burning terribly. Guess need to sharpen it. I'm going just use biscuits. They are bound to be faster,
simpler and cheaper than a domino cutter.


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## MikeJ70

Bob, are you trying to cut your slots freehand? I'd suggest making a template and using a guide bushing on your router. Is this for laminating your top, or for the stretcher to leg joint? If it's for the top, then biscuits work great. I used four for each joint and kept them about 12" or so from either end and then just spaced them equally.


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## KelleyCrafts

I think biscuits will work just fine Bob. That's all I would have done in your shoes. You went the extra mile.


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## BurlyBob

Yeah, this is just for laminating the top. There's going to be a stretcher under the top at both legs.

Tomorrow, I start getting serious about putting the majority of the top together. I'm going to leave the outside 3 pieces to the last so I can get parts cut correctly for the leg joint.


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## BurlyBob

Thinned out 2 boards trying to get the bow removed. I'm amazed how much wood I lost. Only time will tell If I need to add another board. I'm hoping to progress tomorrow with gluing up the bench top pieces. I also need to address the pieces for the leg joint.


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## EarlS

Bob - pictures - we want more pictures….


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## BurlyBob

I'll get some tomorrow. Hopefully the rest of the boards won't need so much time on the joiner to get flat. I'm working these up 2 at a time then adding a third piece. I was planning for 12 boards to get the width I wanted. If I need to add more it should not be much of a problem. My idea is to glue up the largest field of the bench and then arrange the pieces for the leg mortise as required. Only time will tell.


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## KelleyCrafts

Where are yours Earl? Shouldn't that bench be done by now?

Nathan's been a slacker too. Haven't even heard him talk about the bench for a week!!!


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## Lazyman

Hey, we talked about it tonight at dinner.


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## EarlS

Swap projects keep distracting me.

Made some.progress this morning. Most of the chop parts are ready to glue up. I managed to cut off an inch more than I should have on the front panel so there will be a trim piece to hide the mistake.


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## KelleyCrafts

Should have made those circles green, yellow, and red Earl.

So you have those stacked for the chop are you chamfering the top part to blend with the bottom?


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## EarlS

First of all, I'll use the bandsaw to cut the back section tapers to match the front, then after cleaning up the edges I'll flip it over and run the front across a 45 deg router bit. The line on the bottom edge will make the chop 1" off the floor. I still need to cut the mortise in the walnut block for the cherry section. The walnut block may get a beveled edge as well.

Before I go any further, though, I want to make sure everything works for the crisscross and the leg vise components.

I've been using the Titebond polyurethane for these kinds of glue-ups. It is different than the Gorilla version. It's thinner coming out of the bottle and spreads easier. It also cures a lot faster. When it cures, the squeeze out is very brittle, almost like soap bubbles, unlike the heavy, foam like squeeze out with Gorilla. No idea how they stack up with glue strength.


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## KelleyCrafts

I would definitely mount it and make sure everything is good to go.

It's looking awesome man. Can't wait to see the finished product. Just imagine, someday when your dead and gone that'll be a kitchen island. That's what I kept thinking as I built mine.

I've never used poly glue so my experience is zero on that one. Why would you choose that over PVA glue like regular titebond? Serious question, I just don't know.


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## CL810

CurlyBob,

I had some bowed boards in my bench that I buried in the middle of the top. If you're not sure, do a dry fit test by sandwiching the bowed piece between several boards on each side and seeing if you can clamp it all flush and straight.


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## BurlyBob

Good idea there Cl. After the lousy night's sleep I'm going to call it a day and take a snooze.


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## EarlS

Dave - my experience with Titebond is that after a couple months, the glue line swells. I still use Titebond a lot but on panel glue-ups or sandwich type glue-ups I use polyurethane.

Meanwhile it was one of those days. I broke a bandsaw blade working on swap items and managed to glue the chop together with the really nice front face to the inside rather than the outside like it was supposed to be. No fixing that oops.

The crisscross dry fit together well and I was making good progress on the screw until the directions required a tapped 5/16-18 hole for the machine screws that hold the flange in place on the chop. Guess I need to get one of those or find a plan B.

I like Bob's idea for a nap. The shop helpers thought I should get up at 4:00 AM this morning since that is the normal time I get up during the week. So I was out in the shop at 4:30 AM.


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## Bearcontrare

Some of y'all know that I have only two dislikes on a workbench: A shoulder vise and an open tool well. My own personal hang-ups, but we all have them.
But I like to have commonly used tools comviniently available. Here is my own version of a Bernard Jones bench rack (Book 3) I threw together at the old house and haven't set up here yet since the move. 
Genuine salvaged crate wood from a local glass company. Butt joints and drywall screws. Brace hung on bent conduit straps, tools hung on odd screws floating around the shop.





































Threw some random handy tools in there so y'all can get an idea how it's set up. You may not be able to see it, but thete are a few 1/2" holes in the front of the top board. I have pegs to hang the brace with a bit in it or the coping saw when they are in use and don't want to set them on the bench.


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## controlfreak

Reading this I am getting the feeling that a tool well is like smokers. You are all for a tool well until you give it up. As the saying goes there is nothing worse than a reformed smoker…if you are a smoker (or tool tray owner). But hey, its you're bench, whatever works for you is fair game.


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## Bearcontrare

True that. I had an open tool well in a commercially made workbench for about eight months several years ago. I got SO sick of having to dig tools out from under shavings and sawdust, and tools getting knocked into it or around in it. It was a happy day when I filled it in.
I have never had another bench with an open tool well again. I guess I have too much English blood in me to be able to use a tool well…... LOL.


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## BurlyBob

Here it is the first glue up of the bench top. Only a whole bunch more to go! This first one went pretty well. I'm hoping the rest go as well. Something I did or did not do. I did not glue the slots intentionally. My thinking was I wanted to be able to shift the pieces for an even end making it easier to trim to length.

I'm using Titebond extended time and a roller bottle. As a result I may be using more glue than needed as seen by the squeeze out. I'm gluing both board faces. Glue is cheap and I want this bench to last forever. So my thinking has always been more is better.



















I'm pretty sure I've got a week of gluing pieces and letting them cure overnight. That and facing both sides of the boards. Who knows in the down time I might make a few boxes.


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## EarlS

Looks familiar Bob. I used Gorilla glue on my top. I think I went through 4-5 rolls of wax paper. One other thing I did was to put some clamps on vertically to keep things in line along the top. With the biscuits, though, I'm not sure you need them.

Are you pulling a card scraper over the glue lines after they set up for a couple hours? I found that to be the easiest way to remove the excess glue. Any sooner and it turned into a sloppy mess. Any longer and I needed a chisel.

While you're gluing up the top you should start on a cabinet to go under the bench.


----------



## bandit571

Maybe look into using a Stanley No. 70? Was made to remove shipping labels from wooden shipping crates, so a new label could be attached..or stenciled on…

Pull along the glue lines, and watch that ribbon of dried glue peel right off…


----------



## BurlyBob

I think I erred with this glue up and left it over night. I also think I need to cut all the biscuit slots on all the pieces before gluing any others. I also came up with an idea on how to stagger them. I'm going to use the fence on one side of the board and slip a piece of 1×4 under the fence to cut the others. That will stagger the cuts vertically. that should make things work easier.

This first glue up is going to be a piece of work to clean up this morning. Your right Earl. I'll start on the legs and bench mortise after the next glue up. I'm thinking 2 glue ups in the am and then work on the rest of the bench.


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## EarlS

Don't forget to leave lots of notes to remind you which piece goes where. I didn't and managed to glue the front face (pretty side) of the leg vise into the back section. Didn't notice until I was taking the clamps off. I also managed to cut the front piece 1" short on top so I had to make a collar for the vise block.


----------



## BurlyBob

I'm trying to be as careful as I can. But as you know, I'm bound to have a screwup or three.


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## KelleyCrafts

Everyone is going to have at least a couple mistakes in a project this big. The back of my bench isn't flush with the legs, it overhangs roughly 1/16" which bugs me but makes very little difference to the looks and use of the bench. The front is flush and that's all that matters.


----------



## MikeJ70

Bob,

I read somewhere (I think it was the Anarchist Workbench) that Chris Schwarz recommends to keep the top glue-ups in the clamps for a minimum of 12 hours. It's a big glue joint and requires a lot more time for the glue to setup. You are correct that it is better to have too much glue than not enough. From what I see in your pics, it looks like you are using the right amount. You could go a little less, but not much and it is really hard to judge, so I'd say just keep doing what you are doing. When I did mine, I had them in the clamps for 18 - 20 hours.

As for glue clean up, when you alternate sides with your clamps, you can remove the clamps from one side, clean the glue up and then put the clamps back on, and then do the other side. You need to wait 30 - 45 minutes for the squeeze out to setup before you try to clean it up, but it's going to depend on how much squeeze out you have. The glue will tell you when it's ready. If you start scraping and the glue only has a slight skin over it, then you need to wait longer, other wise you end up with a big mess. If you do end up with somewhat of a mess, there is no harm in cleaning it up with a wet rag. I used a plastic scraper and an old chisel for the scraping. If you wait until the next day, it's going to take a lot more effort to clean it up.

As for staggering your biscuits, if I am understanding what you mean, I don't think that is necessary. I set my fence for 90 deg and raised it as high as it would go and then cut them all the same distance form the bottom edge. You are correct that you don't need to mess around with trying to glue the biscuits in.


----------



## MikeJ70

> Everyone is going to have at least a couple mistakes in a project this big. The back of my bench isn't flush with the legs, it overhangs roughly 1/16" which bugs me but makes very little difference to the looks and use of the bench. The front is flush and that's all that matters.
> 
> - KelleyCrafts


+1. So far I have been able to hide all of my screw ups. I had a big one last week. I was using my plunge router to cut the tenons on the top for the end caps and I thought I had returned it all of the way to the top before setting it down, but the bit was till exposed by about a 1/16". I set it down with the bit still spinning and it bounced so now I have two nice router marks in my top. Luckily it is on the bottom side so no big deal. I'll just fill it with some epoxy. I normally have a sacrificial board that I set it down on just for this reason, but I failed to follow protocol.

I'm currently working on getting the end caps mortised onto the top so I'll try and get some updated progress pics posted tonight.


----------



## EarlS

> Everyone is going to have at least a couple mistakes in a project this big. The back of my bench isn't flush with the legs, it overhangs roughly 1/16" which bugs me but makes very little difference to the looks and use of the bench. The front is flush and that's all that matters.
> 
> - KelleyCrafts


I lost count of the number of screw ups I made. Of course, this is one time where forgetfulness is a benefit.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

I just have the two and the overhang of 1/16" is the only noticeable one. In theory I could fix that one by laying the neck in it's side and planing it off but I haven't done that because I honestly don't think I care. Flush legs on the back side aren't a necessity and that's a lot of work with a hand plane. Not worth my time imo.


----------



## BurlyBob

I intend to do a better job of cleaning the squeeze out. I just got tired and lazy yesterday. I'm pretty sure after cleaning all this glue today I will have learned my lesson. Now I wish the wife would get her car out of the garage and get her errands done. She's got a thing about me driving her car!

I just ordered gallon of titebond extended time. I pretty sure those 2 quart bottles are not going to get the job done.
I've always used a lot of glue on any lamination project I've done. It's messy but I'd rather have to much than not enough.


----------



## MikeJ70

> The crisscross dry fit together well and I was making good progress on the screw until the directions required a tapped 5/16-18 hole for the machine screws that hold the flange in place on the chop. Guess I need to get one of those or find a plan B.
> 
> - EarlS


Earl, you must be using the Retro mounting brackets? If I had it to do over again, I think I would go that route also. Drilling a perfectly straight through hole for the mounting pin through 9" of maple is almost impossible for me. Luckily the critical point is where the hole is at in the mortise and it seems to be in the right place (at least within tolerance) and the criss-cross works as it should. The exit hole is way off though, but I'm sure I am the only one who will ever notice.


----------



## Sylvain

> CurlyBob,
> 
> I had some bowed boards in my bench that I buried in the middle of the top. If you re not sure, do a dry fit test by sandwiching the bowed piece between several boards on each side and seeing if you can clamp it all flush and straight.
> 
> - CL810


+1

if one can press the board by hand against the the others, it is flexible enough and the bow doesn't need to be removed.
That is also a good reason to glue one board at a time (or two, one at each side of those already assembled).


----------



## BurlyBob

Just came in for lunch. I was please to find that the dried squeeze out scrapped off really quite easily. I've got to make a parts run, finish these boxes and get back to the bench.


----------



## EarlS

Mike - it is the solo, new installation. The tapped screws are to mount the flange that sits behind the hand wheel on the front of the chop. I probably could figure out a different approach or find some big wood screws but I went ahead and ordered the tap from Amazon - $5. That gives me time to get some finish on the chop.

I already have the 1-1/4" holes drilled thru the leg and the chop. I think it all lines up well enough. The crisscross works, though I was surprised how much it toes in at the top (3/8"). I read the directions a couple of times before I came across the line that says that is what it should be.

I'm hoping this means everything is properly lined up and all I have to do is drill and tap the holes for the front flange then install the nut on the back of the leg and then put in the acetal bushing.


----------



## MikeJ70

Ok. I went with the Traditional handles and they just come with wood screws to mount the flange.

I did a complete vise assembly to the leg before I assembled the base just to make access easier. The only issue I had was when I mounted the nut on the back of the leg for the vise screw. When I tighten the three screws, then the vise doesn't operate as smooth as it is supposed to. I checked the instructions and they say this can happen and the solution is to loosen the mounting screws just enough so the nut has some play in it. I tried that and it solved the issue. Your 3/8" gap is at the bottom correct? Mine was right around 3/8" also and I thought that seemed like a lot too.


----------



## revrok

I haven't shown my bench on here in quite a while… Just a simple English bench that I love. Details are in my project. Thought I'd show it since it is actually clear for the first time in about 3 months!! There was a discussion on flattening earlier… I did a quick flatten about a year ago (pretty obvious from the coloration). Slowly my hand tool wall is evolving toward organization and my most used tools are within easy reach. There was also a tool well discussion. I made a couple of boxes that fit in the tool well, primarily for measuring and layout tools. Of course, everything else is a disaster still!


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Looks nice Tim. Looks like a good shop layout for you.


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## BurlyBob

Sylvain, That's good advice which I intend to follow. I'm thinking I might run a ROS to smooth out the rough and try a glue up.


----------



## EarlS

Looks like the leg vise should be it installed this weekend.

The leg vise finally has the first coat of finish on it. Gonna give each coat a full 24 hours to dry. I'm using Minwax semi-gloss poly since I ran out of Arm-R-Seal. It seems to take longer to fully dry. As expensive as Arm-R-Seal is, I don't want to order a can if I'm not sure what I will use it on. I had 1/2 can of it set up last year.

Mike - I was planning to mount the flange to the chop before installing the chop on the leg. I want to make sure the screw and flange are centered on the hole and doing that when the chop is attached to the leg looks like it would quickly become a frustrating endeavor. The tap showed up yesterday so I can get on with setting the flange between applying coats of finish.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

You aren't going to put poly on the top of that bench are you Earl?


----------



## EarlS

nope - just the legs and such. The top has a coat or two of Watco on it.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

That's right, I remember now.


----------



## BurlyBob

My idea of using a piece of 3/4" plywood as a spacer for the biscuit joiner worked out just fine. As did the idea of running an ROS on the pieces. I'm looking to make some decent progress this week.


----------



## EarlS

Bob - do you need a long 3/8" or 1/2" (I think) drill bit for any of the holes? If so, I can send you the ones I have. Only used once and I doubt they will ever be used again.


----------



## MikeJ70

Since we haven't had any progress pics on here in a while, I figured I'd post a few.

To cut the tenons for the end caps, I used my router with a 1/2" straight bit and a straight edge. I tired to do the first few passes free hand, but that was kind of a pain, so I made some shims that gave the router something to ride against. I made 6 different shims, each one sized so I could take 1/2" off at a time. I had my plunge router setup to take 6 different depth cuts per shim.

Here's my setup before the first pass









And this is after the first six passes using the first shim









Here it is after 36 passes (72 if you count both sides). The tenon here is just shy of 3" long and 1-1/2" thick. I cut it down to it's final length of 1-1/4" using my chop saw. In hindsight, I should have cut the top shorter before cutting the tenons and that would have saved me a lot of router work, but I was so focused on the task at hand that I didn't stop to think about it.









I used my router and a template to cut the mortise in the end cap. I didn't get a pic of that or of the final tenon, but here's a pic of the first end cap dry fit. You can also see I have the cavity for the tail vise cut on the other top section. I'll update my blog one of these days and I'll try and give some better detailed pics.










I still have some fine tuning to do to get the shoulders tight and then it's time to figure out how to dovetail the front laminate into it. I bought a 2X6 from the BORG so I am going to use that to practice on. If I can't do an acceptable job at a houndstooth, then I am going to follow William Ng's method for dovetails.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Thanks Mike!! Looking really good. Earl and Nathan were giving us some good stuff to look at but they have been slacking lately. Not sure what Earl is doing  but Nathan's been on vacation so he kind of has an excuse. It's just you and Bob at the moment.


----------



## MikeJ70

Thanks Dave.

Yeah, Bob's making some great progress. He'll probably finish before I do. I'm getting close, but I'm going to take my time on the final details. No room for error now.


----------



## BurlyBob

Mike if your talking about me making progress. You are so wrong. I'm slower than the tortoise. I'm still trying to wrap my have about all the steps I have to take, when to take them and when to combine them. I'm going to be at this bench for months!

Earl if your willing to part with those drill bits. Sure I'll take them. Let me know how much and the shipping so I can shoot you a check.

Today is just bench top glue ups and more planning.


----------



## EarlS

Bob - PM me with your contact info and I'll get them in a box or a USPS envelope or something. Don't worry about $$ - I'm just glad someone can use them.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

I'll PM you my info Earl and you can send me something cool. I don't need the drills. Actually I think you have it. I should just get a monthly cool tool box from you like a subscription service without the subscription.


----------



## MikeJ70

Speaking of cool tools, I found this sitting on my doorstep when I went home for lunch.










Time to cut some dovetails.


----------



## Lazyman

Sign me up too, Earl. You should already have my address, since you had my name in last year's beer swap. It is always fun to get a box of awesome from Earl. 

I'm finally back in my shop and starting to do a simple inlay into the leg vise chop. Of course the first one I cut seems to be too small. Odd though, since I did a practice one about 2 weeks ago in some scraps and it worked perfectly.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

I turned a humidifier on in your shop while you were away Nathan.


----------



## Lazyman

It wasn't necessary, Dave. Humidity with the door open yesterday was about 80% and I was dripping wet after hand planing all that citrus wood you gave me. Already missing the low AZ humidity.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Well that sucks. I'm a sweaty fat bastard so humidity half that has me soaked in seconds. I hate the heat here but don't mind the humidity most days.


----------



## Lazyman

I am just a bastard most days but yesterday I was a sweaty bastard too. Only 50% humidity today but gusty winds and only about 60° around 4pm. Not a bad afternoon in the shop. I've got all but the smallest inlays cut and about half of them glued into place. I keep changing my mind about what type of wood for the the part that sort of represent green leaves, stylistically at least. Not sure it is worth the trouble to get some greenish wood, since most of it eventually turns brown anyway. Leaning towards canary wood that I have on hand at the moment.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

I can shoot some green dyed burl out your way tomorrow. Would get there by Saturday probably.


----------



## KelleyCrafts




----------



## BurlyBob

Here's a few photos of things I've done besides gluing boards for the bench top.
This was my idea of an easier way to cut biscuit slots with out adjusting the fence every time. I sat 3/4" piece plywood under fence for one set of slots.








Then I sat the fence on the piece for a lower cut. My thinking was this would avoid weakening the boards. It is a easy technique and seems to fit my needs.








This is a glue up I made using raw pieces of the lumber I bought to build the bench, red beech. It's got a rough texture that seems like someone use a wire wheel across the surface of the wood. It has a ridged surface almost like corduroy fabric. I'm using titebond extended open time. This block was clamped and left to sit over nigth.

















I smacked this block about a dozen times. I tried to give it a real good hard smack each time. The only result was I started to beat the wood apart. It appears that the rough surface doesn't affect the joint. It's also a pretty good testament to the holding power of Titebond Extended glue.










So for the next few days I'm cutting biscuit slots and gluing boards. At least until I run out of glue and I'm using bunches of that. My gallon jug won't get here till Monday. I'll be able to do some much needed studying about that leg mortise joint.


----------



## drsurfrat

Wow, I have been trying to move to "CanIHaveIt" and away from fleecebay. One listing is for the often talked about Millers Falls bench dog. 
NOS snd only $145 ! That ain't pesos. I think making your own casting and doing machining would be cheaper.


----------



## KentInOttawa

> Wow, I have been trying to move to "CanIHaveIt" and away from fleecebay. One listing is for the often talked about Millers Falls bench dog.
> NOS snd only $145 ! That ain t pesos. I think making your own casting and doing machining would be cheaper.
> 
> - drsurfrat


If you aren't concerned about having "the real thing", then Lee Valley is your friend.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

The Lee valley one is good. Lazyman (Nathan) pointed me to it not long ago and I snagged one. Super nice little tool to have in the bench. I've used it a few times now. I would have used it more but I'm so used to using the dogs and the tail vise so I forget about it sometimes.


----------



## EarlS

Since Dave had a Lee Valley plane stop, I needed one too. Haven't had to use it much but it is there waiting for me. Of course that also means I have to use the show work bench.

Looks like Dave has plenty of "Something cool" sitting around his shop. BTW - I have some of that citrus in a couple of the inlays and it looks like lemon chiffon - really pops!!!

Once I finally exhaust the wood stack I can start ordering some cool wood online (like citrus, desert iron wood). That was part of my scheme when I convinced SWMBO that I needed to sell the truck and get a Subaru (for the gas mileage). I told her the $$ I saved in gas could be spent on wood.

I'd gladly take some humdity and heat. Woke up this morning to an inch of snow. Been raining here for days. I feel like I'm back in OR with all of the misty rain.

The leg vise chop got the final spray coat of poly to make it pretty. I'll probably wait until tomorrow night to assemble things. I need something to look forward to after this week at work. Should mean I can get a project write up and glamor shot posted on Saturday morning just in time to ruin everyone's breakfast. Let's see, I need to get a purple thong and some pasties…..


----------



## KelleyCrafts

I know Nathan used a tiny wedge of it in his vise chop inlay as well. That citrus is making its rounds!!


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Definitely do the Bondo shot, that essentially died with Kenny when he didn't do it. You can bring it back.

Just make sure you were the flower again. You know what I'm talking about.


----------



## BurlyBob

Here's some proof that I'm trudging away at the bench top. One glue up at a time is really slow going. I've got the clamps but I'm limited on space and soon to be glue. It's amazing how much glue this takes. I'm of the mind that more is better than not using enough.


















Tomorrow is a lost day Here. I'm headed to Boise for a piece of 12/4 black walnut for the end caps and leg vise.


----------



## EarlS

> I m headed to Boise for a piece of 12/4 black walnut for the end caps and leg vise.
> 
> - BurlyBob


 I got lucky and got several pieces of 12/4 walnut and cherry out of a barn in IL, along with a bunch of 6/4 walnut, cherry, and white oak. He even had some really old 6×6x6' cherry beams. Unfortunately, they were in the dirt and pretty badly split.

Dave - I kept the flower. Now I just have to remember where I put it for safe keeping and hope SWMBO didn't dispose of it.


----------



## BurlyBob

I envy you Earl. As you know hardwoods are hard to come by out here. Luckily I've got a friend with a cabinet shop will order anything I want at his cost paid in cash. This 12/4 Black walnut is a rare expense. It'll be worth it in the long run.


----------



## Lazyman

> I know Nathan used a tiny wedge of it in his vise chop inlay as well. That citrus is making its rounds!!
> 
> - KelleyCrafts


I had the citrus piece all ready to go but I was afraid that it might be too light and not contrast enough with the maple right next to it so I went with Osage orange. It will eventually turn brown but for now it is bright yellow.

EDIT: Here is a picture. Not sure why the gaps showed up. I may have to try wedging some cherry slivers in the gaps. This is about as much bling as my bench will have.


----------



## BurlyBob

That's really attractive.


----------



## theoldfart

Nathan, nice Art Deco look.


----------



## Lazyman

Thanks, Kevin. It was inspired by an Art Deco stained glass image I saw online somewhere that I plan to inlay into a new top I am eventually going to make for an antique card table I am going to restore.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

I'm going to start an inlay tomorrow into a piece of eucalyptus.

I need three colors and I had to pull out a bunch of options and put some finish on them to figure it out what was going to work.


----------



## Lazyman

Dave, that is pretty much what my bench has looked like for a couple of weeks (I was out of town for one of them) while I hemmed and hawed about which types of wood to use in my inlay. There were only a couple of wood types from my wood hoard that were not represented on the bench top. Tomorrow, I will inlay a simple makers mark near the bottom of the chop and finally permanently mount it after applying some T&T varnish oil to it.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Well because you passed on the citrus I've decided to let it be a part of this one. My inlay is for the desk im building for my dad. It'll be a compass rose on the front.


----------



## EarlS

Nathan - that is going to look awesome. Another reason I need either a CNC or a Shaper Origin. How thick are the pieces?

My bench has so much bling that it looks like one of the queens in New Orleans during Mardi Gras.

Dave - glad to see you are falling into the inlay rabbit hole too.


----------



## HokieKen

> …one of the queens in New Orleans during Mardi Gras.
> 
> - EarlS


----------



## Lazyman

The pieces are about 0.2" thick. I used a v-carve inlay technique which suppossedly doesn't require a lot of fiddling for fit but since I got gaps, I must have done something wrong. Here is the pocket before gluing in the pieces.


----------



## EarlS

> …one of the queens in New Orleans during Mardi Gras.
> 
> - EarlS
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - HokieKen


Kenny - I resemble that remark

Nathan - that's just more confirmation that I really want a toy (errr - tool) like that.


----------



## Lazyman

You really need a new toyl, Earl. You really do.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

You bought that drill press ages ago. It's definitely time for a new toy. The big question is, a CNC or an Origin?


----------



## EarlS

Or both??

I need to finish the bench and reorganize things in the shop so I have someplace to hide new toys (tools - darn autocorrect)


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Why not right?


----------



## BurlyBob

Got the last 3 piece section for the front side of the bench glued up. Tomorrow I start the back section. I'm headed to Boise here in a short while to get a piece of 12/4 black walnut for the end caps and leg vise.


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## KelleyCrafts

It's not workbench related but as discussed, here's the compass rose I mentioned. i got off work early today and decided to get it done. I left the NSEW off of it because I really just wanted the design and it's not perfect but it'll do. Considering putting a small K in the center. Can't decide, I'll have the wife cut one out of vinyl and see what it will look like. This will get cleaned up and mount at the front of the executive style desk I'm building.


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## CL810

Awesome work Dave!


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## Lazyman

I don't think I have ever seen a woven compass rose before. That is a cool design.


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## KelleyCrafts

Thanks Nathan and Clayton.


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## pottz

> It's not workbench related but as discussed, here's the compass rose I mentioned. i got off work early today and decided to get it done. I left the NSEW off of it because I really just wanted the design and it's not perfect but it'll do. Considering putting a small K in the center. Can't decide, I'll have the wife cut one out of vinyl and see what it will look like. This will get cleaned up and mount at the front of the executive style desk I'm building.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - KelleyCrafts


thats damn sweet dave !!!


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## Mosquito

I agree with the above!


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## KelleyCrafts

Thanks Pottz and Mos!


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## BurlyBob

That's really outstanding Dave.


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## KelleyCrafts

Thanks Bob. The whole rest of the desk sucks so I'm doing this to steal attention from the rest of the project when I deliver it. Going to start milling for a top tomorrow.


----------



## controlfreak

The woven aspect really attracts my eyes, very nice!


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## EarlS

> Thanks Bob. The whole rest of the desk sucks so I'm doing this to steal attention from the rest of the project when I deliver it. Going to start milling for a top tomorrow.
> 
> - KelleyCrafts


Oh my!!!! All I do is glue little square pieces of wood together. That is something else entirely. Was it CNC or Shaper Origin work?

Now you know why I put inlay on the drawer fronts of the work bench.

I'm trying to get SWMBO to help with the glamor shot of the bench.


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## KelleyCrafts

I don't have a CNC Earl. I just have an origin.


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## HokieKen

I don't see a need for both in the case of most hobbyists. To me, the Origin is more versatile but requires hands-on time and has limited capabilities in terms of 3D work. A CNC takes up space and limits the size of the work but has more capability. And you'll probably get out cheaper with a CNC. In truth, I'm not sure which I would prefer if I was in the market.


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## KelleyCrafts

Kenny, one advantage over a CNC is the origin is ready for end grain work, joinery etc. a CNC could potentially do it but not nearly as easily. So they both have things they do well that the other would struggle with. Hands on time however is a sucky feature of the origin but I don't mind to much with some headphones on.


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## Lazyman

So both then.


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## pottz

havn't posted here in a long time but i just did an upgrade on this bench i got from my dad.the space under was just wasted so an addition of drawers solved that.box is melamine with clear doug fir frame and drawer fronts.full extension glides.cant have too much storage.some of you have probably already seen this.


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## KelleyCrafts

You had to have posted that somewhere pottz. I swear I've seen this before. Still looks excellent and is a mandatory use of space. Well done.

You read that Nathan? You might as well get that leg chop installed and start in your cabinet.


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## theoldfart

Potz, like the boot scraper and the bench cabinets.


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## KelleyCrafts

Oldfart, I didn't notice the boot scraper! And I thought there was a lot of BS around my shop, have to watch your step at Pottz's shop.


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## pottz

> Oldfart, I didn't notice the boot scraper! And I thought there was a lot of BS around my shop, have to watch your step at Pottz's shop.
> 
> - KelleyCrafts


ha ha, yeah it gets pretty deep some days. dave i posted it as a project not long ago.


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## EarlS

Pottz - how do you like that Delta disc/belt sander? Looks like something they made when Delta still built things to last.

Still haven't done the glam shot. The bench is covered with bits and pieces of swap stuff right now.

I also found out that two of the drawers hit the edge of the leg vise wheel. I'm going to see if I can shift the bushing and nut over about 1/4" to the left. Hopefully that clears up the problem. For those of you who are building the cabinet, make sure to take the wheel size into consideration. I was worried about the chop being too wide, or the deadman hitting the drawer handles but never thought about the vise wheel diameter. An inch shorter on the cabinet would have left plenty of space.


----------



## pottz

that sander ive had for 30 years,ive got the big brother and was gonna get rid of it but i like it for many things.

once you post your bench no one is gonna care about anything else here.once again,magnificent !


----------



## Lazyman

> Pottz - how do you like that Delta disc/belt sander? Looks like something they made when Delta still built things to last.
> 
> Still haven t done the glam shot. The bench is covered with bits and pieces of swap stuff right now.
> 
> I also found out that two of the drawers hit the edge of the leg vise wheel. I m going to see if I can shift the bushing and nut over about 1/4" to the left. Hopefully that clears up the problem. For those of you who are building the cabinet, make sure to take the wheel size into consideration. I was worried about the chop being too wide, or the deadman hitting the drawer handles but never thought about the vise wheel diameter. An inch shorter on the cabinet would have left plenty of space.
> 
> - EarlS


Thats a good watchout for when I build a cabinet someday. My leg vise chop is pretty wide.


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## Lazyman

> You had to have posted that somewhere pottz. I swear I've seen this before. Still looks excellent and is a mandatory use of space. Well done.
> 
> You read that Nathan? You might as well get that leg chop installed and start in your cabinet.
> 
> - KelleyCrafts


I forgot to mention that I got the bling done and mounted the chop today. 









Already dinged it. Not sure how I did that.

The cabinet is going to have to wait. I've got to start on my wife's birthday and Christmas present for last year. Plus, I was in Lowes and HD yesterday and the same 2×12s I used to make the bench that I paid about $22 and $27 each for are now $45 and $67. I can't imagine what the vertical grain Doug fir I'm thinking about using for the cabinet goes for now.


----------



## BurlyBob

Nate that turned out fantastic.

I picked up a 12/4 X 8' piece of black walnut in Boise yesterday. It's got some amazing fish scale grain at the top of one end. It's also got a knot that will be closer to the bottom of the leg vise. I'm going to pick out the loose stuff and epoxy resin the hole. I'm planning on using that for my leg vise and 4' of the rest for end caps.


----------



## Lazyman

Thanks Bob.

Walnut will look great for both leg vise and end caps. Depending upon how loose the knot is, Starbond black or brown CA is another way to go for filling that knot. I have used that a few times and it is easier than epoxy and blends especially well in dark woods like walnut. You may even be able to leave the loose bits in there and just let the CA lock it in place.


----------



## pottz

> You had to have posted that somewhere pottz. I swear I've seen this before. Still looks excellent and is a mandatory use of space. Well done.
> 
> You read that Nathan? You might as well get that leg chop installed and start in your cabinet.
> 
> - KelleyCrafts
> 
> I forgot to mention that I got the bling done and mounted the chop today.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Already dinged it. Not sure how I did that.
> 
> The cabinet is going to have to wait. I've got to start on my wife's birthday and Christmas present for last year. Plus, I was in Lowes and HD yesterday and the same 2×12s I used to make the bench that I paid about $22 and $27 each for are now $45 and $67. I can't imagine what the vertical grain Doug fir I'm thinking about using for the cabinet goes for now.
> 
> - Lazyman


hare it was about 12 bucks a bd ft ! i should have used a hardwood would have been cheaper except all my shop cabinets are clear doug fir and wanted to keep it the same.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

That's awesome Nathan!! Seriously looks great. Love the makers mark at the bottom too. You going to do a project post? You officially done now?

Bob you'll have a monster on your hands with that giant bench. Whatever crazy price you paid for that stick of walnut is worth it 100% I don't even know what it is but in the end it'll be worth it.


----------



## BurlyBob

Here's the piece I plan on using for my leg vise. That fish scale grain at the top should be awesome. Like I said before. My plan is to dig out the loose wood in the knot and fill it with epoxy resin. Who knows I might throw in some brass filings from my reloading just for the fun of it. The back side of this board has some very nice grain but that fish scale beats it out of the park.



























I'm hoping to be done with the most of the bench top glue ups by Wednesday, Lord Willing. Then it's all about making that amazing leg wedged mortise joint thru the top. Tons to think about and planning. I'm 67 and this will be the only Roubo bench I build, want or need. So I have to get it absolutely correct the first time!!! I want 'Brusier' to be a really great looking bench. I know it will be a wonderful working bench but when I look at it I want to be satisfied I made it look as good as I could. Aesthetics, appearances.. I want people who come into my shop to be impressed with my workbench that I built for me to make the things I build. If they are not, they can kiss my massive hairy back side!!!


----------



## KelleyCrafts

That'll be awesome Bob. Even the knot at the bottom of the chop will be good character.

I just finished my bench at the end of last year, I was 43 and this is the last roubo I'll build for myself unless something unnatural happens (fire, etc). Even at my age I'm expecting mine to be the last I build. I do love it more than I should probably admit. At 67 you're going to have so many good years with that Bob it's exciting. Im excited for you.


----------



## pottz

lookin good burly !


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## Lazyman

> That's awesome Nathan!! Seriously looks great. Love the makers mark at the bottom too. You going to do a project post? You officially done now?
> 
> - KelleyCrafts


Thanks Dave. I used some of the citrus you gave me for the maker's mark. That is some really fine grained stuff and really nice to work with. I'm still planning to put a a coat varnish oil on the entire thing and make a deadman and since I am going to wait a few months at least to start working on a cabinet, I may put a quick shelf on the bottom just to make a place to put some tools since I don't have a tool well. Not sure if I will wait until all that is done to post or not but I am definitely ready to wrap this up.


----------



## bandit571

Mismatch..









6' 5" might be a bit too long for my bench?


----------



## EarlS

Nathan - the leg vise looks awesome.

Bob - can't wait to see the finished leg vise and matching end caps.

Bandit - A well placed sawhorse will fix that


----------



## Sylvain

> Mismatch..
> {picture in comment #1541}
> 6 5" might be a bit too long for my bench?
> 
> - bandit571


Have a look at the video in this blog from about 1'20": 
https://paulsellers.com/2022/01/newest-piece-of-the-year/


----------



## BurlyBob

So today I went out to the garage to do glue up. Proof of screw up. I forgot to use my spacer. Thankfully no one will be able to see these as they are on the inside.


----------



## bandit571

Trying a lay out….only place big enough…









Was between the bench and the Tool Crib Table….it has a board along the edge, at the same height as the bench

I do have a couple saw horses..just no room IN the shop for either of them…


----------



## EarlS

> I do have a couple saw horses..just no room IN the shop for either of them…
> 
> - bandit571


Sounds like a perfect excuse for a bigger shop.

Then a bigger bench….


----------



## MikeJ70

> I forgot to mention that I got the bling done and mounted the chop today.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Already dinged it. Not sure how I did that.
> 
> The cabinet is going to have to wait. I've got to start on my wife's birthday and Christmas present for last year. Plus, I was in Lowes and HD yesterday and the same 2×12s I used to make the bench that I paid about $22 and $27 each for are now $45 and $67. I can't imagine what the vertical grain Doug fir I'm thinking about using for the cabinet goes for now.
> 
> - Lazyman


Nathan, Your chop looks awesome and now that you have christened it with it's first ding I'd say it's officially in-use.

I only managed to get about 2 hours out in the shop this past weekend so not much for progress. I was really hoping to start practicing my dovetails, but I had to install a new dishwasher on Saturday and yesterday had some house maintenance to take care of so my ambition level for working in the shop was at about zero. I really need to do a major cleanup before I go any further. Pretty much every work surface I have is covered with tools and clutter and sawdust and plane shavings so it's almost impossible to even do anything out there right now without moving a bunch of crap.


----------



## BurlyBob

I got my second roller stand back from my son the other day. Man does that ever make running things over the joiner planer easier. It seems to be giving me a better finished surface.


----------



## EarlS

I wanted to say thanks to everyone on the thread for all of the ideas, suggestions, and inspiration for my bench build.

I guess I should clear off the work bench and get a glamour shot one of these next days. You've been warned!!!!


----------



## pottz

and earl just recieved the coveted "editors choice award" congrats for a beautiful bench.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Nice! I was hoping I would get that for my bench pottz but good thing they waited for Earl's.


----------



## EarlS

Dave - your bench set the bar too high so I lowered it with mine.


----------



## pottz

> Nice! I was hoping I would get that for my bench pottz but good thing they waited for Earl's.
> 
> - KelleyCrafts


hey yours deserved it as well,it just got missed that all.


----------



## BurlyBob

If anyone is interested I posted a few photos of my new Jessem miter gauge on Rick weather page. It sure seems like it's going to be a great addition to my shop.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

> Dave - your bench set the bar too high so I lowered it with mine.
> 
> - EarlS


Funny Earl! I will say my tail vise wins out but that's probably it. If you dont have a tail vise then you probably aren't missing it either!


----------



## EarlS

I have to get used to even having a vise in my shop. I found myself trying to figure out how to hold an awkward piece while drillng a hole in it and then I realized I have a leg vise I can use. No more clamping things to the end of the table saw.

Last night, I showed SWMBO the inlay on Nathan's chop and Dave's chop and vise inlay and the moxon vise and she really liked them. I told her about CNC and Shaper Origin. I also mentioned I could do Harvey Ellis inlays with either one of them. Then came the dreaded question - "how much?" I told her "They aren't cheap - probably a couple thousand". She said "Oh, that's not too bad". I guess that means I should start saving up for one or the other so I can get one this fall.


----------



## HokieKen

Congrats on the Editors Choice Earl  IMO you and Dave both deserve it. Honestly, I think I've only seen it awarded to a couple of projects. I really didn't even know there was still staff to do it…

If I had a blank check from the budget committee, I think I'd probably go with the Origin at this point. I flip-flop back and forth in my mind on the issue all the time though. My reasoning for the Origin is the flexibility of it and the footprint. I could squeeze a CNC into my shop but it's already pretty "cozy" in there. And for a focus on inlay work, I do think it's the better choice.

On the other hand, if I'm thinking about an upcoming project with multiple complex parts or if I see a carving I'd like to replicate, I lean the other way.


----------



## Lazyman

If I hadn't found my CNC so cheap, I would definitely lean towards the Origin over a CNC. Even with just a 24×24 cutting area my CNC requires a lot of space in an my tight shop. It is also probably a little cheaper than one of the more capable hobbyist level machines. One the other hand, I really do not like using a router and I actually do use my CNC to do some things that I would normally just use a handheld or on a router table, especially if I have to make multiple cuts in the same piece that need to be laid out accurately relative to each other or the same cut on several pieces.


----------



## bandit571

Afraid my bench is a bit busy..


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Congrats on the green light Earl.

Here is my opinion, I don't have a CNC but always wanted one. If relief carving is important to you then a CNC is the answer period. Done and done. However, if I sit here and try to think of something I want to relief carve I just can't think of anything that excites me. So my mind has changed ever since the Origin came into my shop.

The Origin is unique because you can do end grain work with it and that's not easily done on the CNC, especially a $2k CNC I imagine (correct me if I'm wrong guys). Also, programming for the Origin is an SVG image, that's it. Nothing else. Doesn't get any easier and you can do a lot of the basic things on the screen of the tool so you don't even need to make a file. It really is pretty cool.

Here's an example of and grain work with heart tenons I made for Valentine's Day.










The foot print is why I originally bought the Origin but having it now for a couple years I would do it again in a heart beat regardless of space. If you go that route, plan to buy the workstation too. It's worth it.


----------



## pottz

> Congrats on the Editors Choice Earl  IMO you and Dave both deserve it. Honestly, I think I ve only seen it awarded to a couple of projects. I really didn t even know there was still staff to do it…
> 
> If I had a blank check from the budget committee, I think I d probably go with the Origin at this point. I flip-flop back and forth in my mind on the issue all the time though. My reasoning for the Origin is the flexibility of it and the footprint. I could squeeze a CNC into my shop but it s already pretty "cozy" in there. And for a focus on inlay work, I do think it s the better choice.
> 
> On the other hand, if I m thinking about an upcoming project with multiple complex parts or if I see a carving I d like to replicate, I lean the other way.
> 
> - HokieKen


the "editor" is cricket who just happens to love a quality work bench.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

She definitely pinned a very nice workbench.


----------



## Lazyman

Question for the brain trust. I am laying out the holes for my deadman. Thanks to Dave K (AKA KellyCrafts), I have a 203 bench bracket and thanks to DuckMilk (AKA Mike) I have a couple of holdfasts (generous group here). The bracket requires a 1" hole while the holdfasts a 3/4" hole so I was thinking about 2 columns-one for 3/4" and one for 1" holes. Assuming that someday I put a cabinet under there making the holdfasts pretty much unusable, I am thinking that maybe I should just make all the holes for use with the bracket. I suppose there are other options for using 3/4 holes, including just dogs and clamps but it seems like the bench bracket amy handle most situations. Of course I am making the deadman out of a 2×6 (counter-boring on the back side for the bracket) so it won't be that big of a deal to make another one down the road but before I make a bunch of holes, I thought I would ask what your experience is for anyone that has brackets and holdfasts.

Opinions?


----------



## HokieKen

Will your deadman be thick enough for holdfasts to be effective Nathan? I don't think it will if it's a 2×6. I think I'd just size the holes for the 203. Maybe a second row for dogs if you feel it's necessary. I'd probably just start with some holes for the 203 and go back and add the others down the road if I found I wanted to be able to use something else.


----------



## BurlyBob

Here was the heart attack moment I had this morning. I had just finished cleaning the glue off the top of this piece. When I rolled it over I saw this huge long gap. I freaked out thinking that I had not clamped it up tightenough or the board had sprung on me.



















Then I remembered that gap was do to stretch of live edge and that I'd put it on the bottom side. Talk about a relief.
One more 3 piece glue up then I start getting things ready for the leg /bench top mortise.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Here's what I have Nathan. Also *WHEN* you build your cabinet down there you won't use holdfasts but I still think dogs are useful or other clamps as shown below.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Also less holes. Can't tell you why I decided on a Swiss cheese deadman. It works but not necessary.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

That was a close one Bob!! Keep going. Nathan is a slacker and hasn't put a project post up, maybe after the deadman but Earl has so we need more benches in progress to keep making progress. Keep it up!


----------



## theoldfart

I did something similar to Daves idea but took it one step farther. I counterbored a full circle on two of the holes so I could use the 203's in any orientation.


----------



## Lazyman

> Will your deadman be thick enough for holdfasts to be effective Nathan? I don t think it will if it s a 2×6. I think I d just size the holes for the 203. Maybe a second row for dogs if you feel it s necessary. I d probably just start with some holes for the 203 and go back and add the others down the road if I found I wanted to be able to use something else.
> 
> - HokieKen


Maybe. I drilled a hole in a 2×4 scrap and clamped that into the vise and tested holding down on the bench top and it sort of seems to work, though not as well as the slightly thicker top on my old worktable. I would not want that thickness for the top but it might work well enough to just hold up the end of a board. Dave makes a good point for other devices so I might as well drill some 3/4" holes, especially since I am just going to let the CNC do it.

Thanks.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

> especially since I am just going to let the CNC do it.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> - Lazyman


Snob


----------



## EarlS

I ordered a Veritas hold-down initially, but then realized it won't work on the deadman even with the shorter shaft so I will use it on the bench top if I decide to poke some holes for it.

I also ordered a couple Veritas surface clamps but they are on back order (until Sept 30 - WTH??) The wedge anchor should work in the deadman.

Bob - I have a couple crevices on the bottom of my top like yours. I filled them with plastic wood (epoxy would work too)


----------



## pottz

> I ordered a Veritas hold-down initially, but then realized it won t work on the deadman even with the shorter shaft so I will use it on the bench top if I decide to poke some holes for it.
> 
> I also ordered a couple Veritas surface clamps but they are on back order (until Sept 30 - WTH??) The wedge anchor should work in the deadman.
> 
> - EarlS


those clamps are a little pricey but being veritas well made and worth the investment.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

It's only Sept 30 until it gets close to Sept 30 then it'll get pushed out.

I have a plane on order from them and the original date was 1/28/2022….still waiting. Last date they have on my order is 3/31/2022 but still nothing. Don't count on that date Earl.


----------



## MikeB_UK

> Will your deadman be thick enough for holdfasts to be effective Nathan? I don t think it will if it s a 2×6. I think I d just size the holes for the 203. Maybe a second row for dogs if you feel it s necessary. I d probably just start with some holes for the 203 and go back and add the others down the road if I found I wanted to be able to use something else.
> 
> - HokieKen
> 
> Maybe. I drilled a hole in a 2×4 scrap and clamped that into the vise and tested holding down on the bench top and it sort of seems to work, though not as well as the slightly thicker top on my old worktable. I would not want that thickness for the top but it might work well enough to just hold up the end of a board. Dave makes a good point for other devices so I might as well drill some 3/4" holes, especially since I am just going to let the CNC do it.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> - Lazyman


My bench is only 2" thick, no problems using holdfasts. Even allowing for different holdfasts gripping different (Mine have a rough finish that probably helps a fair bit) you should have no problems using them to hold up a board.


----------



## theoldfart

My deadman is 1 7/8" thick, the holdfasts are from Blackbeard Forge based on a Phil Koontz design and are 1" (15/16'ths actual). They hold extremely well.



















The hold fast in the picture is in a hole only 1" deep and is solid.


----------



## Lazyman

> I did something similar to Daves idea but took it one step farther. I counterbored a full circle on two of the holes so I could use the 203's in any orientation.
> 
> - theoldfart


That's basically my plan too. I will counter bore a 2" hole on the back and then the 1" hole the rest of the way on 2.25" centers vertically. It will be less than 6" wide to help accommodate the future cabinet that Dave is forcing me to make.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

And you'll thank me for it too.


----------



## duckmilk

Nathan, unless you have something specific in mind to use the 3/4" holes, you might hold off and just drill 1" ones. You can always use 1" dowels for dogs in those holes.

Earl, I have 1 holdfast finished for you and will try to finish the second this afternoon. I really need an extra pair of hands for that one, but I've moved an anvil next to the post vise and will try that for holding it.


----------



## EarlS

Duck - no big rush. If you play your cards right, it might be close to the beer swap and I'll have a good excuse to send you some good IA beer (in actuality, you will be getting some as payment for the holdfasts anyway), and maybe some local spirits.

I'm going to give everyone a warning that the next post is probably NSFW and will likely get my Editor's Choice award rescinded and most likely get me banned. Cover one eye so you don't go blind.


----------



## EarlS

I'm Too Sexy




















*I warned you!!!*


----------



## Lazyman

My EYES!

Note, I almost didn't click on your project post (sexy beast) because I was afraid that might be what was coming.

BTW, are your legs that white or are you wearing a white leotard under your shorts.


----------



## bandit571

Got to spend the rest of the evening, trying to erase those 2 pictures from my brain…..


----------



## EarlS

Back to serious posts -

Bob - I probably would have gone with round holes rather than the square dogs and I would have also moved the strip back one row. The dogs are too close to the front for me. I also wound up filling more than half of the dog holes. Of course that also means the tail vise would also have to be adjusted along with the cavity for it.

If you decide to go with square dogs I'd suggest using the strip method between the leg mortises. One of the blog entries (#6?) should have all of the details. There should be some pictures of the plans with dimensions for the dog holes.


----------



## HokieKen

Ooh La La!


----------



## theoldfart

Atta boy Earl.


----------



## duckmilk

That is a sight for "sore" eyes, ouch.

I got the 2nd holdfast done this afternoon. As chance would have it, my wife and I are going to Des Moines this weekend for a wedding. We are going back home on Sunday. How about meeting Sun. in Iowa City? I have your phone # and can call you on the timing.


----------



## EarlS

Duck - I think we can swing that. Let me check with my wife.

P.S. Just checked with her and she said "sure". Now if it was Kenny….....


----------



## pottz

damn,a guy gets an editors choice and goes hollywood on us. i gotta say earl you are kind of sexy.a man on a workbench just does it for me ;-)) maybe ill do some pinups for you guys on mine ?


----------



## duckmilk

> maybe ill do some pinups for you guys on mine ?
> 
> - pottz


Ummm…


----------



## pottz

> maybe ill do some pinups for you guys on mine ?
> 
> - pottz
> 
> Ummm…
> 
> - duckmilk


you know you want it duck. and ill go topless too…..............


----------



## KelleyCrafts

And Earl for the retro win on bringing back the Bondo pose!!

Kudos buddy.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

I would totally do the Bondo pose but Kenny is very organized when he saves images and he saves all the images.


----------



## BurlyBob

Here was the heart attack moment I had this morning. I had just finished cleaning the glue off the top of this piece. When I rolled it over I saw this huge long gap. I freaked out thinking that I had not clamped it up tight enough or the board had sprung on me.



















Then I remembered that gap was do to stretch of live edge and that I'd put it on the bottom side. Talk about a relief.
One more 3 piece glue up then I start getting things ready for the leg /bench top mortise.

Earl, that certainly is a Bondo photo. I though they usually included a bottle of you favorite adult beverage.


----------



## HokieKen

> I would totally do the Bondo pose but Kenny is very organized when he saves images and he saves all the images.
> 
> - KelleyCrafts


I have no idea what you mean.


----------



## pottz

ok ….well…....i think im done here tonight…...............good luck all !!!!!!


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Amazing Kenny


----------



## Lazyman

Added a shelf yesterday.









I resawed some 2-by scraps for the shelf and didn't get them flat and I didn't want to mess with the power planer so played with my bench planes instead. Pine is so much fun. 









I am loving the wagon vise. Gotta make some more dogs to replace the quick and dirty ones. No regrets with the square dogs for me.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

> I ordered a Veritas hold-down initially, but then realized it won t work on the deadman even with the shorter shaft….
> 
> - EarlS


They actually work quite well on a dead man. Mine does, anyway.


----------



## EarlS

> I ordered a Veritas hold-down initially, but then realized it won t work on the deadman even with the shorter shaft….
> 
> - EarlS
> 
> They actually work quite well on a dead man. Mine does, anyway.
> 
> - Smitty_Cabinetshop


Even the short shaft is long enough that it will hit the drawer fronts. I'll probably just trim off the end of the long shaft and make it work that way. I need to play around with it to figure out what the best length will be before I cut anything off though.


----------



## HokieKen

> Even the short shaft is long enough that it will hit the drawer fronts. I ll probably just trim off the end of the long shaft and make it work that way. I need to play around with it to figure out what the best length will be before I cut anything off though.
> 
> - EarlS


----------



## HokieKen

Earl (and anyone else that has input) I'm curious if your bench will be at home there parked against the wall?

I ask because I generally like to work "around" my bench so I've always had it in the middle of the floor. It offers more working area that way and it also makes it easier to access stuff on the shelf that's near the back side. But, since I've added my milling machine to my shop (which is parked directly behind the bench) I've pretty well sewn up access to the back side anyway. Over the next year or so, I'll be adding a storage building to my yard which will move the lawncare stuff out of the corner of the shop and free me up a bit more space. So I'm contemplating whether I want to move the mill to that corner and leave the bench where it is or move the bench against the wall. I'm leaning toward moving the mill but not relishing the idea of having to move, re-level then re-tram everything on that beast. So if you guys could convince me to put my bench against the wall instead, it would be much appreciated ;-)


----------



## HokieKen

duplicate post…


----------



## drsurfrat

I found a middle ground with the short side against the wall. I also have my tool wall independent of the bench so that movement doesn't rattle the tools.


----------



## HokieKen

Are those cement shoes on your bench Mike? And is that a Kona beer that it's enjoying? ;-)

If I move it against the wall, I'll have to decide whether to corner it and block the left side or put it in the center of the wall. My biggest holdup on putting it against a wall is my end vise. The vise runs the full depth of the bench (~24") and I often clamp pieces in it for hand planing that are 30" or shorter when I have other stuff on the bench I don't want to move in order to clamp between dogs. If I had a wagon or tail vise instead of the end vise, I probably wouldn't hesitate to park it against a wall. But having the ability to use the end vise to plane stock without clearing the bench top has been a nice luxury I would be sacrificing.

Nevermind, after typing out that paragraph, I have talked myself out of putting the bench against the wall :-/


----------



## MikeJ70

> Earl (and anyone else that has input) I m curious if your bench will be at home there parked against the wall?
> 
> I ask because I generally like to work "around" my bench so I ve always had it in the middle of the floor. It offers more working area that way and it also makes it easier to access stuff on the shelf that s near the back side. But, since I ve added my milling machine to my shop (which is parked directly behind the bench) I ve pretty well sewn up access to the back side anyway. Over the next year or so, I ll be adding a storage building to my yard which will move the lawncare stuff out of the corner of the shop and free me up a bit more space. So I m contemplating whether I want to move the mill to that corner and leave the bench where it is or move the bench against the wall. I m leaning toward moving the mill but not relishing the idea of having to move, re-level then re-tram everything on that beast. So if you guys could convince me to put my bench against the wall instead, it would be much appreciated ;-)
> 
> - HokieKen


Kenny, my bench will be going against a wall, but only because that is the only logical place to put it in my shop (3rd stall of garage). I played around quite a bit with my shop layout when I remodeled last summer, trying to make it so my bench would be the center piece and so I could utilize all 4 sides. I just couldn't make it work. The deciding factor for me was I upgraded my table saw to a Unisaw with a 52" fence so in order to have a good flow, I had to put that in the center.

It sounds like it's going to be a big pain to move your mill so if it were me, I would move the bench first and see how I liked it.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

I would put the mill by the wall, it just makes sense, you don't ever need access to the back of it and it'll keep metal chips away from the bench/wood stuff. Is it going to be near the South Bend? If so then that makes it nice for all the big metal tools and chips as well.


----------



## Lazyman

On my old bench (actually an assembly table with laminant top with a vise on one end), I frequently clamp stuff down to it from the both sides so I would not want to limit my ability to do that by having it up against the wall. With the leg vise near one end and the the wagon vise on the other on my new bench, putting an end against the wall would be pretty limiting too.

My dilemma now is whether to decommission my old assembly table to free up space. It serves as an outfeed table for the table saw and is great for panel (and benchtop) glue ups. The laminant is great because any glue or finish drips are easy to scrape off and it is pretty close to perfectly flat. I like it for dirty work, cleaning planes and other task that require oil or cleaning solvents, because the top can be easily de-greased. Not quite ready to get stains on my new bench.  One thing that I have considered is to just keep the top from it and set it on the new bench when I need it for those things. I could also make some sort of adjustable outfeed support for the table saw to attach to the bench. It also has a shelf down below that stores some things that will be hard to find a new home for, especially if I add a cabinet under the new bench.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

> especially *when* I add a cabinet under the new bench.
> 
> - Lazyman


If you can live with that assembly table or make it smaller even then I would do that. Let's be honest here, you won't clean your bench off when a dirty task comes up so you can throw your laminate top on. I have some silicon mats I roll up so that saves space and throw on the bench if I need to do some dirty tasks, otherwise I have an MFT table that's filthy and I can replace the MDF top pretty inexpensively anytime I want. My bench has the silicon mats on it now for a desk top glue up, those things are handy and can be cleaned easy enough.


----------



## pottz

i like a work bench where i can get all around it myself. if you had it on wheels so you could move it out when needed would that work ?


----------



## Lazyman

Hah. I almost said "especially when Dave makes me add a cabinet under my new bench".

Well, I have to frequently clear my old bench to use my table saw because it is also my outfeed. Kind of a PITA when you are right in the middle of something and need to make a rip cut or even use the cross cut sled which can push everything off. I will probably eventually get rid of the table but want see how often I use it now that the new bench is working. I really like the vintage Columbian face vise that is mounted on the the table so I will have to figure out if that will work very well on the thick top on the new bench without cutting a recess so that it is level with the top.

That reminds me, I recently picked up a Rockler silicone mat at an estate sale for $5. I need to move that over to the shelf under the new bench to keep it handy. I wonder where I put it.


----------



## bandit571

I need to get this thing off of my bench….









Although…leg vise is a 3rd hand….and the aprons are in use as cauls










We'll see…


----------



## Lazyman

double post. That was weird. Bandit and I must have clicked post at exactly the some time.


----------



## Notw

Anyone know if there are any companies who make new Stanley no. 203 bench brackets, I would like to have one but $185 for a pair on eBay is way more than my liking.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

$185!!!!!

Uh Nathan, so that bracket I sent you…I'm gonna need that back.


----------



## drsurfrat

> Are those cement shoes on your bench Mike? And is that a Kona beer that it s enjoying? ;-)
> - HokieKen


Yep, they added height and weight to an otherwise super cheap bench. It has held up amazingly, and the drawers are still rock solid. And I think it's a Sierra Nevada.


----------



## EarlS

Since I'm working in a single car garage I don't have room to put the beast (I need to come up with a name for it) in the middle of the shop, but then I've always had my work bench up against the wall so I'm used to that configuration. I still have to figure out which wall to put it against since I have wall cabinets on some of the walls. I'll also be putting something on the drywall to protect it.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

> Anyone know if there are any companies who make new Stanley no. 203 bench brackets, I would like to have one but $185 for a pair on eBay is way more than my liking.
> 
> - Notw


Wow! Feeling gloatish over my $20-for-the-pair Craigslist find about 11 years ago.


----------



## Mosquito

holy ouch. I paid way less than that for the pair I've got too… and neither of them on eBay ($185 or $210) are even NOS either… both rusty and dirty. Dang.


----------



## Mosquito

> I would totally do the Bondo pose but Kenny is very organized when he saves images and he saves all the images.
> 
> - KelleyCrafts


Also, to circle back to this one… I don't have all of them (thank you photobucket), but I do have 35


----------



## KelleyCrafts

I think I paid under $50 shipped for the pair I have. I sent one to Nathan as a bench warming gift recently because I didn't need two.

IIRC Mos yours was something extra special involving a blue wig?


----------



## Mosquito

Yup lol only one so far apart from the original Roubo chick reference, I think


----------



## KelleyCrafts

We'll just call her "inspiration".


----------



## Mosquito

I will admit, though, Fridge had more cleavage lol


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Unfortunately I don't remember his.


----------



## Mosquito

Are you sure you meant "unfortunately"? lol


----------



## CL810

As usual, I'm late to the party! I see everyone had their coffee this morning.

Great job Earl, but i'm not keen on the white leggings!


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Well maybe "unfortunately" was misused. Totally remember now!


----------



## CL810

And I wonder about Fridge from time to time, wondering where is he? Psych ward you think???


----------



## KelleyCrafts

He's been MIA for awhile. Probably tired of listening to us banter about nothing important or productive.

I'm good with the white leggings but I was disappointed with the lack of a flower in his hair.


----------



## Mosquito

There's a lot of the old regulars I wonder about Andy


----------



## HokieKen

Earl's legs are white because when you live in the middle of a statewide cornfield there's an abundance of shade. On the other hand, Fridge is in NOLA so I don't know what his excuse for the pasty gams is.



> ...
> IIRC Mos yours was something extra special involving a blue wig?
> 
> - KelleyCrafts


I wish I had that one. Oh wait…


----------



## KelleyCrafts

And Kenny proves my point once more.


----------



## Mosquito

pretty sure I've got that one too


----------



## Lazyman

> $185!!!!!
> 
> Uh Nathan, so that bracket I sent you…I'm gonna need that back.
> 
> - KelleyCrafts


You mean the homemade screwdriver with the crack in the handle isn't an even trade? 

I first noticed those brackets last fall and kick myself for not buying one that topped out at about $35. They've just gone up since then. I am always about a week late. It seems like as soon as I say I want one, the prices on eBay get crazy. Whichever one of you who is doing that, knock it off. I might do an experiment and see if I can drive the prices of something I want to sell up a little. I think that I might like to buy an Union #5 with missing chipbreaker. Surely, I can get one for under $100.

I was actually trying to come up with a DIY version of 203 bracket when Dave sent me one of his. I think that if I could weld, it would not be too hard to do. Might be time to go get a cheap HF wire welder. Lazyman 203 anyone?


----------



## HokieKen

I just hope you paid royalties to your inspiration.


----------



## pottz

> Are you sure you meant "unfortunately"? lol
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Mosquito


damn you blow earl away. is this "family friendly" lol.


----------



## HokieKen

They'd be a piece of cake to cast if someone was setup with the furnace and sand Nathan. Would be cheaper and easier to make after the initial setup too.


----------



## Lazyman

> holy ouch. I paid way less than that for the pair I ve got too… and neither of them on eBay ($185 or $210) are even NOS either… both rusty and dirty. Dang.
> 
> - Mosquito


I am glad that you were finally able to get a pair even if they are rusty and dirty. Mine are NOS. The missus even keeps them in the original box most of the time.


----------



## Mosquito

lol nice Nathan


----------



## HokieKen

You're lucky. My missus won't even tell me where she keeps em…


----------



## Notw

> They d be a piece of cake to cast if someone was setup with the furnace and sand Nathan. Would be cheaper and easier to make after the initial setup too.
> 
> - HokieKen


I like cake, how do we start baking this cake?


----------



## HokieKen

Get you some green sand and a furnace with a crucible and somebody to let you borrow one for a pattern and settle in with some Youtube


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Maybe I should start making them at the prices I'm seeing. I have the oven…


----------



## HokieKen

Having a way to melt and pour the metal is the hard part. The rest is just messy and takes some space. When you have a pattern ready-made though, it's just playing with some sand and some molten metal


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Tempting and I have been looking for yet another hobby.


----------



## EarlS

To continue with the "family friendly" conversation. SWMBO absolutely refused to let me borrow any of her nighties










My extra special IA outfit was also a no go










As for flowers - I couldn't find the one Dave sent me. If it was summer:










Which left me with only one option:










Any more questions?


----------



## pottz

here's my vote for best mumu wearer, LJ'S own…...little black duck !!!


----------



## BurlyBob

Here's the first practice mortise joint. I'm not real happy with the gaps. This is rough unfinished lumber pieces. Maybe if I finish these down the gaps will disappear. It's quite obvious that I need to extend the leg portions at least 1/4" or more.




























I'm looking for some advice and criticism, so feel free to pile on.


----------



## pottz

hey thats not bad for a practice mortise bob.i think your gonna kill it on the finished bench.


----------



## EarlS

Bob - I thought that the youtube guy in the video you mentioned to me extended them quite a bit (1/2" or more) and then cut and sanded them down flush.


----------



## bandit571

Hmm, does that mean Bob is a "Digger"

Yet another reason I have a tool well on my bench…









I can use a clamp across the bench, when a board is too narrow to clamp to the apron…


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Yep, works that way without a tool well too only we don't have to move anything in the tool well for the head of the clamp. 

Looking good Bandit.


----------



## BurlyBob

Earl, that's what I intend to do. Especially after seeing this practice joint. I'm seeing gaps that I hope will be resolves once I trim the last three outside pieces thru the planer Like I said I'm looking for advice and criticism. Trust me I can take any critcism, I just want my bench to be the best build I can make it. You all can help me with your advice.

There are many issues with the angle cuts that are causing me some questions. I'm thinking I may be getting a little to anal with the desire for the perfect tight fit. That whole fit and finish issue is the reason I avoid doing things for other people. People are going to show off anything I do for them. I don't want any one seeing my name and pointing out a
small error.


----------



## pottz

> Earl, that s what I intend to do. Especially after seeing this practice joint. I m seeing gaps that I hope will be resolves once I trim the last three outside pieces thru the planer Like I said I m looking for advice and criticism. Trust me I can take any critcism, I just want my bench to be the best build I can make it. You all can help me with your advice.
> 
> There are many issues with the angle cuts that are causing me some questions. I m thinking I may be getting a little to anal with the desire for the perfect tight fit. That whole fit and finish issue is the reason I avoid doing things for other people. People are going to show off anything I do for them. I don t want any one seeing my name and pointing out a
> small error.
> 
> - BurlyBob


bob i love people with kind of passion for perfection.but dont over stress it,because perfection is rarely achieved in life.do it the best you can and be happy man.something ive had a hard time accepting myself.


----------



## corelz125

I came looking for pics of Bobs mortise joints and I have seen way more than I wanted to. I was hoping never to see that pic of LBD in pink boots again.


----------



## BurlyBob

About the tool well. Yeah, they get filled with woods shavings, dirt and crap. I'd much rather have one of my expensive tools in the bottom of the tool well that banged up on my concrete garage floor. It's happened before and caused me a lot of work to restore. I've got a really nice shop vac that is very good at sucking up saw dust and shavings. Besides if people stop in, which rarely happens and they see shavings in the tool well they might think I' a very serious craftsman.


----------



## pottz

> I came looking for pics of Bobs mortise joints and I have seen way more than I wanted to. I was hoping never to see that pic of LBD in pink boots again.
> 
> - corelz125


B S you love it and are turned on by it-lmao!!!!


----------



## BurlyBob

Corlez, I got to agree with you. Hairy legs and pink boots!!!! Total eye pollution!!


----------



## corelz125

I thought it was bad when I first seen the pic of fridge on his bench then it got worse.


----------



## pottz

> I thought it was bad when I first seen the pic of fridge on his bench then it got worse.
> 
> - corelz125


weenies !!! are you a "woodworker" or what man ? suck it up bro !


----------



## controlfreak

> About the tool well. Yeah, they get filled with woods shavings, dirt and crap. I d much rather have one of my expensive tools in the bottom of the tool well that banged up on my concrete garage floor. It s happened before and caused me a lot of work to restore. I ve got a really nice shop vac that is very good at sucking up saw dust and shavings. Besides if people stop in, which rarely happens and they see shavings in the tool well they might think I a very serious craftsman.
> 
> - BurlyBob


I am blessed to have a wood floor but if you have concrete one of two thing must happen. You have tool well or you get horsey mat from Tractor Supply.


----------



## Lazyman

I usually keep some cheap foam mats around my bench. It not only make standing more comfortable but protects the tools and edges. One downside of the mats is that tools tend to bounce. I once dropped a chisel which hit handle first and bounced up and nicked my leg pretty nicely. I guess it was sharp for a change. Dropped hot pieces, like metal cuttoffs with an angle grinder, will melt into it too.

I recently picked up a garage parking mat for cheap at a garage sale that I plan to put down now that my bench is done (project posting coming soon).


----------



## theoldfart

Horse mats save a lot of edges and old iron.


----------



## HokieKen

Don't listen to the well-haters Bob ;-) You'll be glad it's there. Even though mine ends up full of crap that doesn't belong there all the time, I'm still glad it's there.


----------



## bandit571

Busy, busy…BUSY..









Welcome to my little world….









Jig is for chopping mortises….so these can get used..


----------



## Bearcontrare

A tool well is nost definitely a matter of personal choice. Although I don't care for them myself, I WILL say a person should work at a bench with one for awhile to determine if they like it or not.
If building a bench, you may want to make a detachable tool well. That way, if you like it, you can remove it and shake the dust out now and then. If you find you don't like it, you can repurpose it for a flower box or something. It's easier than filling in a built in tool well. Been there, done that…..


----------



## HokieKen

First thing I did this morning was to clear my benchtop. I haven't done a single thing on my bench today yet it still looks like this…


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## KelleyCrafts

I do love that sewing box man.


----------



## BurlyBob

While I was practicing on the leg mortise joint I realized how nice it would be to have a bench with a leg vise. I could to a much better job and do it more easily. Ironic isn't it?

I'm also seeing how handy that center tool well will be.


----------



## BlasterStumps

I got this far today on a work table that will go along one wall. I needed more table-top work space since I took the workbench out. It is upside down at the moment because I didn't have the bolts that I need to attach the legs and stretcher pieces and, I must have been getting tired at the end of the day because I cut those two pieces laying there both 1-1/2" too short. : (. Guess I get to have do-overs on those. The bench will set on casters if I can get to HF in the next little while.


----------



## Lazyman

Kenny, what are dimensions of your shop? Every time I see all the stuff you've got in your shop and how much room you still have to walk around, it remind s me of Dr Who's tardis.


----------



## Sylvain

> If building a bench, you may want to make a detachable tool well. That way, if you like it, you can remove it and shake the dust out now and then. If you find you don t like it, you can repurpose it for a flower box or something. It s easier than filling in a built in tool well. Been there, done that…..
> 
> - Bearcontrare


Add-on tool-well.
The added benefit is that it can be as deep as one wishes while the usual tool-well is limited by the top thickness.
How-to/example:





If one wants to make it removable, one shouldn't hide the screws securing the well to the workbench.
If one wants to be able to shake the dust out of it without using a screw driver, one has to find another way to secure it to the workbench. Maybe with something like this: https://www.rockler.com/heavy-duty-wrought-steel-bed-rail-fasteners-4-pack-select-size

Now, by design, on the Moravian workbench, one can shake the dust out of the tool well.


----------



## TEK73

Hi

I'm about to create a Moxxon vise for my workbench.
It will have wooden screws. What is most commenly done is to use the screws to close the wise (threads in the back piece of the vise).
I do however want to make it a little different than what is usually done.
I want to let the screws be permanently mounted in the back piece and use the nuts to close the vise.
The consept is shown here in this picture from Axminster









This is the same way benchrafted vises are working, except of course theirs are in metal while mine will be in wood.





I'm a bit unsure what shape I should use for the nuts to make them comfortable and easy to use.
The screws diameter will be 45mm or 1 3/4"

I would love some suggestions or references about how those nuts might be shaped.










This is screws made for a different project (a book press), so it will be simular screws but now I'm looking for ideas for nut shapes that is good to use…


----------



## Lazyman

I would turn a wheel or disk almost like a shallow bowl on the lathe shaped like to the Benchdrafted hand wheels. You could cut out spokes or just leave them solid but make the rim wider to provide a better grip. You could also carve some  finger grips on the backside (towards the jaw side) into the rim for a better grip. If you do not have a lathe, the whole thing could be hand carved.


----------



## HokieKen

Shop is 24×30 Nathan. On the inside. It's a porta-potty on the outside.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Nice work on those wooden threads TEK73. What size threads can you cut?

I put a vise together like what you are describing, only didn't use wooden screws. I used dumbell pieces with the star nuts. That works to fix the screw in place in the back piece. I had to make the holes in the front jaw a little bigger. The vise in the picture you show doesn't have much on the ends for clamping. I would make it just a little longer on each end there.

All the best with your vise build. Hope we get to see it when it is completed.


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## KelleyCrafts

Tek if you line the jaws with something grabby you really don't have to crank things down very much so a wood screw and a simple wood disk can work for the handle. I know this screws into the box here but it would work the way you're thinking. I just didn't want screws to hang out of this all the time.


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## TEK73

The moxxon vice from Axminster was just to show the screws. I imagine mine will be a bit more like this:









I have a lathe, so round handles are absolutly a possibility. But still in the thinking booth, the benchcrafted you can just give a spin and it closed. With wooden screews I will have to manually rotate them all the way, so shoult be easy to follow/push all the way around with one or two fingers.
Maybe adding a spinning nob or tags like on a ship wheel might be an option?

I have this old (antique?) thread set that makes 45mm outer diameter threads. 









Going to use that to make the threads and the nut.

I also have a DIY jig and have made 55mm threads, but guess I will not use that anymore in the future. The one from Peugeout Freres works way better!

I have a set of these at 3/4" size on the way for other projects.


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## Sylvain

I would prefer the screws protruding at the back the same way you did your bookbinder press.
see: https://www.lakeerietoolworks.com/products/moxon-vise-screw-kit
You could add a disk to the handles and make them shorter if you wish.
(One has to look at the comments in the link given by Kelleycrafts to see the disks in additional pictures)

I see no reason to want to have the screws protruding at the front.


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## rad457

https://www.lumberjocks.com/projects/347057

My rather crude attempt, only metal is a brass screw


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## TEK73

Having the screws protruding at the front means that you only have to turn the nuts, not the screws that is protruding both the front and back vise. The idea is that it is easier to turn just the nuts than the screws.
Seems like a interesting idea and I sould like to test it to see how it works.
I think it means that the screws can't be to long as they will be in the way when working if they are to long, so the max opening will have to be limited.


----------



## BlasterStumps

unless the vise is mounted more or less permanent to the bench, the screws out the front should not be much to worry about since when not in use the vise can be and most likely will be removed from the bench top. Am I right on that?


----------



## BlasterStumps

TEK, do you soak the wood in some type of oil before cutting the threads? I was thinking I saw a video once where the person was cutting some large wood threads and if I remember correctly he soaked the wood in some type of oil.


----------



## TEK73

> TEK, do you soak the wood in some type of oil before cutting the threads? I was thinking I saw a video once where the person was cutting some large wood threads and if I remember correctly he soaked the wood in some type of oil.
> 
> - BlasterStumps


I know many say that you should soak them i oil. I have never done that, and for walnut there was no issue. However, walnut is a bit oily and does not splinter easy. A lovely wood to work with, to bad it costs a fortune her up north (Norway).
Also, from roe tree that I have used before, it worked nicely without oil.
I have not tested to make the screws out of oak, beech or birch (the other types of wood I work with) so I'm not sure how does will do without oil.

Anyway, I would try without first. A lot of hassel to have to soak the wood i oil several days before making a screw…


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## TEK73

> https://www.lumberjocks.com/projects/347057
> 
> My rather crude attempt, only metal is a brass screw
> 
> - Andre


Nice build. Not seen many that use the garter (or your concept for a garter) on a moxxon vice.
Are you still happy with the handles? Both for ease of use when you need many turns and for power when you want to fasten the workpiece?


----------



## MikeB_UK

> TEK, do you soak the wood in some type of oil before cutting the threads? I was thinking I saw a video once where the person was cutting some large wood threads and if I remember correctly he soaked the wood in some type of oil.
> 
> - BlasterStumps
> 
> I know many say that you should soak them i oil. I have never done that, and for walnut there was no issue. However, walnut is a bit oily and does not splinter easy. A lovely wood to work with, to bad it costs a fortune her up north (Norway).
> Also, from roe tree that I have used before, it worked nicely without oil.
> I have not tested to make the screws out of oak, beech or birch (the other types of wood I work with) so I'm not sure how does will do without oil.
> 
> Anyway, I would try without first. A lot of hassel to have to soak the wood i oil several days before making a screw…
> 
> - TEK73


A day is overkill, but I normally soak in BLO (Other oils are available, just happens to be what I have handy) for about 20 mins+ before cutting threads. Oak just disintegrated without the oil, birch is better, but got a cleaner thread with the oil, beech didn't seem to make a lot of difference, but I use oil anyway. Willow makes a good screw as well, but has a bit too much flex unless it's 3/4 or more.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Just a thought, when I was putting together the Moxon style vise I have, I made the holes thru the back piece a little larger than the size of the screws. I didn't want to fight the front jaw when I wanted to open it. With the barbell rods pinned with a vertical pin, and the holes a little bigger than the screw, the screws are able to swing side to side just a tad which seems to help the front jaw come away easier. I also elongated the holes in the front jaw a bit for the same purpose. Seems to work quite well.


----------



## bandit571

Wasn't there a way to use the bar, and the weight locks from a set of Barbells from either a sporting goods store or Wal E World….I remember something about that from a year or 2 ago…..Hmmmm?


----------



## Bearcontrare

FINALLY got to unfold the Bernard Jones/Roy Underhill/ Me designed workbench! We've only been in the new house since Thanksgiving….. although in fairness to myself, it's been too damned cold to work in the garage until recently.
Photos show the groove in the base of the front apron for the deadman and the coupling nut for the end vise screw. You can also see a groove in the left front crosspiece to accomodate the leg vise screw. (See post below)
No, this bench ain't purdy, but using largely reclaimed lumber, it works for me.


----------



## Bearcontrare

Wing nuts holding the braces against the top batten and end stretchers.
The low tech deadman in place.


----------



## Bearcontrare

My own screwball idea, a detachable leg vise. Since I knew we were going to move, the bench had to be portable And i made SURE it is!
The rear jaw shown attaches to the left front leg with three bolts and wingnuts.
There is a dadoed notch in this jaw which will accommodate a movable pin for notches on the bottom bar.


----------



## Bearcontrare

Sorry fellas, NO tool well for me. An adaptation of the Bernard Jones (book three) tool rack.
Can be slid to either end of the bench as the need for more space on one end or the other arises.
Now that we've made our last move before the cemetery, I'll probably mount this on the wall behind the hench to keep the surface clear.


----------



## BlasterStumps

There ya go Barry! Nice bench and nice tool storage box! I like. Nice collection of hand tools as well. Thanks for sharing the pics.


----------



## BlasterStumps

You got me Bandit. I have no idea on that one.


> Wasn t there a way to use the bar, and the weight locks from a set of Barbells from either a sporting goods store or Wal E World….I remember something about that from a year or 2 ago…..Hmmmm?
> 
> - bandit571


----------



## Bearcontrare

Thank you for the kind words, Blaster. MUCH appreciated!!! 
Happiness is being able to make nice shavings again:


----------



## Lazyman

I finally finished and posted my bench project.


----------



## KentInOttawa

> Wasn t there a way to use the bar, and the weight locks from a set of Barbells from either a sporting goods store or Wal E World….I remember something about that from a year or 2 ago…..Hmmmm?
> 
> - bandit571


That was most definitely a thing some time back. It was something that I was contemplating for a while, myself. A quick Google search revealed a lot of hits, but I'm not up to sorting through that mess to find one that I could recommend, so I'm not going to.


----------



## Lazyman

> Shop is 24×30 Nathan. On the inside. It's a porta-potty on the outside.
> 
> - HokieKen


That explains a lot. Mine is on about 21×21 - more like a porta-potty on the inside


----------



## Lazyman

> Wasn t there a way to use the bar, and the weight locks from a set of Barbells from either a sporting goods store or Wal E World….I remember something about that from a year or 2 ago…..Hmmmm?
> 
> - bandit571
> That was most definitely a thing some time back. It was something that I was contemplating for a while, myself. A quick Google search revealed a lot of hits, but I m not up to sorting through that mess to find one that I could recommend, so I m not going to.
> 
> - Kent


Here's an example though they used i as a face vise.


----------



## rad457

I believe Kiefer used to use the cast weights as hand wheels?


----------



## Sylvain

> Having the screws protruding at the front means that you only have to turn the nuts, not the screws that is protruding both the front and back vise. The idea is that it is easier to turn just the nuts than the screws.
> Seems like a interesting idea and I should like to test it to see how it works.
> I think it means that the screws can't be to long as they will be in the way when working if they are to long, so the max opening will have to be limited.
> 
> - TEK73


A bit of wax in the front jaw holes should take care of the very limited friction difference.
Bookbinding finishing and lying presses are traditionally done with turning screws. Why would it be a problem for Moxon vise?


----------



## Sylvain

This guy has a strange set-up to make wooden screws (the result of an evolutionary process) but it nevertheless contains interesting information about the cutter geometry. He is generously oiling the blank at each pass (he cuts the thread in multiple passes for better quality):
https://timothymooretools.com/making-wooden-screws/

about free play:
https://timothymooretools.com/free-play-of-wooden-screws/
nice picture of a press where the guidance of the jaw is not done by the screws. (not that important in a Moxon but very important in a bookbinding press)


----------



## TEK73

> This guy has a strange set-up to make wooden screws (the result of an evolutionary process) but it nevertheless contains interesting information about the cutter geometry. He is generously oiling the blank at each pass (he cuts the thread in multiple passes for better quality):
> https://timothymooretools.com/making-wooden-screws/
> 
> about free play:
> https://timothymooretools.com/free-play-of-wooden-screws/
> nice picture of a press where the guidance of the jaw is not done by the screws. (not that important in a Moxon but very important in a bookbinding press)
> 
> - Sylvain


Thanks, that was interesting.
The exact same principels as used in Carters videos that I used when making my first screw (before I got my hands on the tap snd die set), but a lot more professional. If you are making a lot of screws, a setup like that might be nice to have!

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLED804974DAE7359F


----------



## controlfreak

> Wasn t there a way to use the bar, and the weight locks from a set of Barbells from either a sporting goods store or Wal E World….I remember something about that from a year or 2 ago…..Hmmmm?
> 
> - bandit571


That was about the time I made mine. Wally world had Golds Gym dumbbells for $7.95 ea.


----------



## EarlS

> Shop is 24×30 Nathan. On the inside. It's a porta-potty on the outside.
> 
> - HokieKen
> 
> That explains a lot. Mine is on about 21×21 - more like a porta-potty on the inside
> 
> - Lazyman


Mine is about 21×21.

Duck proposed a great solution to my issue of the handwheel on the leg vise. The radius of the handwheel is about 1/2" to wide and 2 of the drawers hit it. He suggested going with with a Classic handle. If the Classic uses the same screw and nut set up all I would need to do is pull the handwheel off and put the classic hub on. I'm sure someone on LJ would be interested in buying a barely used Glide set up.


----------



## Lazyman

I don't think that I would want to switch from the glide version, Earl. Quick release is almost a requirement for me so having the ability to give it a spin to speed up opening and closing would be tough to give up. I don't think that you could just give it a spin with the classic handle. I think that I would first look into other wheels to see if I could find a slightly smaller one. I really prefer the steel BC wheels over the aluminum Hovarter ones but I love the quick release.

My problem will be that I made the chop so wide that I will have to design a cabinet around that to get clearance. I guess I could cut off the side, but it sticks out 2-1/2" beyond the leg. .


----------



## EarlS

According the the BC website their Classic handle spins just as easily as the Glide. I emailed them asking for confirmation that I could use the same screw, nut, and bushing and that the Classic will fit on the end of the screw. I really don't want to have to drill out a new hole or install a completely new vise.

I thought I had designed the cabinet for enough space to clear the vise. I mistakenly assumed the chop would be wider than the handwheel and never thought to measure it. If the cabinet would have been 40" instead of 41" this wouldn't be an issue.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

My space is 18X18 but I do have a small cut out in the back that gives me another maybe 8X6. That's where the metal lathe, metal mill, and grinder live.

I designed my chop for the cabinet. I had a handle design I didn't have to worry about and with the quick release Hovarter the handle shape doesn't matter even a little. Love that vise. The BC stuff is nice too of course. I think the classic will look great on there Earl.


----------



## HokieKen

Earl, is the clearance issue the wheel itself or the knobs that stick out from it? If it's the knobs, maybe you could remove them and just use the wheel? If it's the cast part of the wheel, I can probably trim 1/2" off the radius on it for you.


----------



## BlasterStumps

New workbench mostly done with the exception of a shelf. It's upright at least.


----------



## EarlS

> Earl, is the clearance issue the wheel itself or the knobs that stick out from it? If it s the knobs, maybe you could remove them and just use the wheel? If it s the cast part of the wheel, I can probably trim 1/2" off the radius on it for you.
> 
> - HokieKen


It is the wheel. The BC tech guy is talking to their sales folks to see if we could do a swap of the handwheel and its flange for the Classic and its flange. I'll keep your idea in mind. It's cast iron I think. Does that matter for trimming it?


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Turning cast iron is messy but it turns fantastic.


----------



## HokieKen

Yeah, cast iron is fine. I can machine it on the lathe or mill it either one without issue.


----------



## Sylvain

TEK73

I don't speak any Nordic language but as you are from Norway, you might like this blog:
https://skottbenk.com/skruvar-og-skruveverktoy/
and
https://hyvelbenk.wordpress.com/

The Schreiner dye shown is unfortunately too expensive if not regularly used.
https://www.fine-tools.com/gewind.html

GUPEA has interesting publications like this one:
https://gupea.ub.gu.se/handle/2077/35598


----------



## revrok

I welded cast weights to a 1" threaded rod for my bench on bench Moxon. Worked well… I do wish I'd used acme threads, but when well oiled they spin like a Bench Crafted



> I believe Kiefer used to use the cast weights as hand wheels?
> 
> - Andre


----------



## drsurfrat

You guys remember that I have these big threaded bars and "nuts" if anyone thinks it's worth the shipping. They are from house jacks.


----------



## BurlyBob

Earl, sorry about this problem your having, but thanks for showing it. I'm keep that in mind as I continue with my bench.

I'm trying to decide on the next step to take. Get the entire top put together or work on the legs and the outside three pieces.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Anyone know if you can update your "shops" pictures?


----------



## rad457

I believe you just need to hit the edit button, beside the Watch button? Should update mine someday


----------



## BlasterStumps

I'm pretty sure I tried that. It would let me remove one but was not able to load a new one.


----------



## DavePolaschek

You need to remove one, save, then re-edit and add.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Ok, I will give it another try. Thanks


----------



## Lazyman

I should post pictures of my shop too while it is relatively neat.

Nah.


----------



## Mosquito

I haven't posted any pictures of my current shop, but I've got a nice evolution of shop series going


----------



## rad457

Can always add new Pic's in New Comments?


----------



## EarlS

> Earl, sorry about this problem your having, but thanks for showing it. I m keep that in mind as I continue with my bench.
> 
> I m trying to decide on the next step to take. Get the entire top put together or work on the legs and the outside three pieces.
> 
> - BurlyBob


Bob - I finished the base off so I had someplace to sit the heavy top sections and then worked on the top details.

Nathan - double up - get the Bondo pic and workshop pic all at the same time.

I keep forgetting to take a picture of the shop now that the bench is finished.

I'm leaning towards getting the BC Classic to replace the Glide C that is causing the problems. Once it arrives I'll post the Glide C for sale on LJ.


----------



## duckmilk

Earl, if you want to keep a handwheel on your chop, you can get these from McMaster that have holes through them that can then be threaded to fit your screw or just drilled for a set screw to attach it. There are various sizes and more options than are on the first link.


----------



## KentInOttawa

> Can always add new Pic s in New Comments?
> 
> - Andre


My workspace had evolved and changed in so many different ways, that I opted to just update the very basics in the workshop page, and then treat any updates and progress as a type of a blog.


----------



## BurlyBob

Earl, I like that idea about building the base then finishing the top. I'm hoping I can get the leg mortise joint refined.

Yesterday was a total bust I could make a decision one way or the other. I ended up getting nothing done. Didn't even push a broom around.


----------



## EarlS

> Yesterday was a total bust I could make a decision one way or the other. I ended up getting nothing done. Didn t even push a broom around.
> 
> - BurlyBob


I have more days like that than I care to admit.

Good shop time on a week day for me is spending an hour or two in the shop right after I get home from work. I've tried going out to the shop after supper but it is usually 7:30 or so and I have no ambition to do anything.

Weekends are a little better. If I can get out to the shop before 7:00 AM I have a good chance at 4-5 hours of productive time.


----------



## TEK73

First test on hub and spoke…
A bit to tight. Also, if you try to do this you should probably make lamination of two pices with the grains 90 degree of each other to ensure a that it wont splinter.
Fun to try, but I think my next attemt will be each turning wheel made from a solid piece of beech. The hob and spoke method fure sure seems firm.
(The square part visible in the clip, where the screw is mounted, is a «feature», not an error that is fixed by filling in a piece


----------



## TEK73

Strange, link to movie and pictures disappared…
Trying again:
Video of screw test: https://share.icloud.com/photos/0f3KmLx4qhS4UEG2vTkx2lzdQ


----------



## BurlyBob

TEK73 that looks like its way to difficult for me. I'm going to stick with my Bench crafted gear.

I'm at a quandary right now. Do I flatten everything I have, just the bottoms of the bench or continue with the last pieces of the top for the leg mortise. I'm seriously leaning toward getting the bottom flat and fitting the last 3 sides pieces fit around the leg mortise. These questions certainly make me glad I'm retired and have the time to ponder them. Hopefully I'll come up with the correct answer.


----------



## Lazyman

My theory was to flatten the bottom after the top is all glued up so that the shoulders on your leg M&T are uniform against the bottom. Then flatten the top side after you have the top mounted on the base.


----------



## TEK73

> Here s the first practice mortise joint. I m not real happy with the gaps. This is rough unfinished lumber pieces. Maybe if I finish these down the gaps will disappear. It s quite obvious that I need to extend the leg portions at least 1/4" or more.
> 
> 
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> I m looking for some advice and criticism, so feel free to pile on.
> 
> - BurlyBob


With trough tenons like this I would have flatten both the top and button og the bench. This is because I think it's hard to flatten when you have end wood preluding up trough the top.

Me, I wanted those type of tenons, but they were to complex so I went for just regular mortises and tenon…


----------



## KelleyCrafts

That will look great. I wanted to do that as well but my tail vise had to butt up against the leg and I couldn't figure out a good way to do that and I thought it would be strange if three were done and one wasn't.


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## EarlS

Bob - don't forget about the rabbet on the underside of the front strip for the deadman slide.

I think I'd flatten up the top and bottom then do the front glue-up since you are fitting pieces around the tenons. Trim the tenons then sand everything flat.

I went ahead and ordered the BC Classic vise yesterday. That means I have a Benchcrafted Glide C vise for sale - $200 (includes shipping). I'll give the folks on here first crack at it before I post it in the "for sale" forum. PM me if you want more details.


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## CL810

TEK73, that is some awesome craftsmanship! Are you going to leave the threaded rods that long? Any concern of them getting in your way?


----------



## bandit571

I tend not to angle wedged tenon cuts….I let the wedge do the work….

Cuts like shown, too good of a chance for it to snap off….too thin at the bottom…

Ever see the wedge for a hammer head? Look at the slot it gets pounded into. Before you add the metal wedges.

No need for a "splitting Maul" style wedge….make a saw kerf cut (vertical)and use a wedge about twice the size of the kerf….

Too big of a wedge ( too thick) runs a risk of causing a split to continue on down the leg….like splitting a log.


----------



## TEK73

> TEK73, that is some awesome craftsmanship! Are you going to leave the threaded rods that long? Any concern of them getting in your way?
> 
> - CL810


Thank you for the kind words.
I think they look longer in the image then they actually are.
So far it does not seem to be a problem, so I will leave them for now. Seems like I'm standing between them.
If I decide otherwise it will take 2 minutes to unscrew them and cut them down on the table saw or bandsaw, so no stress.

On the topic of wedges, make sure to add a relife hole at the bottom to avoid cracks.


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## BurlyBob

Bandit and Tek those are great ideas. I really like the Idea of the relief hole. I did hear cracking yesterday when I was tamping those wedges in. I'll try another piece with the relief holes latter today. First I'm going to flatten the bottom and glue inside two sections. I've only got a 12" joiner/planer so I've got to stay under that .


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## BurlyBob

Bandit and Tek those are great ideas. I really like the Idea of the relief hole. I did hear cracking yesterday when I was tamping those wedges in. I'll try another piece with the relief holes latter today. First I'm going to flatten the bottom and glue inside two sections. I've only got a 12" joiner/planer so I've got to stay under that .


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## TEK73

This is how I did mine…









Thats the good part with a split top roubo, each part is only 8-12" wide and is possible to plane with a small table planer.

Relief holes is a must when doing wedged tenons, if not you may very well crack the legs.
For joining leg tenon and
mortises I suggest you look into draw boring. Works great!


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## KelleyCrafts

I think that's what made the split top roubo was the ability to plane each side through a lunchbox job. Not sure if there were split too roubo benches back in the day.

Some of us prefer to suffer so no split too here and I'm happy with the decision. Seriously each to their own on that one. It's like a tool well, have we talked about a tool well lately.


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## TEK73

A tool well is just stupid ;-)
I must say that I have been against took wells for a long time as they tend to only collect clutter.
However, after using my bench for some projects I realize that the collector of clutter was not the tool well but me…
Only now the clutter is on top of the bench, not down in the tool well…

Oh my oh my, what to do, what to do…


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## KelleyCrafts

A cabinet under the bench actually keeps mine cleared. I'm so impressed with how I actually put things away with the drawers right below me. Definitely wasn't the case previously.


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## BlasterStumps

New bench. No tool well now so, I improvised. I'm kind of liking it so far.


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## drsurfrat

Blaster, that is embarrassingly spotless. Embarrassing to the rest of us, I mean.


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## KentInOttawa

> However, after using my bench for some projects I realize that the collector of clutter was not the tool well but me…
> 
> - TEK73


I can relate to that one, which is why I'm going to have a tool well on my next bench. As to that next bench, it's going to be an additional bench and not a replacement bench. If I don't feel right about the working conditions, I will always be able to change benches. Again, different strokes…


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## EarlS

Finally, someone after my own heart. I think Blaster might even be a bit more organized and neat than I am.

I like the carousels for the mallets and screwdrivers.

I'm slowly transferring things into the bench drawers. Still more things to transfer out of the rolling carts.


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## KelleyCrafts

I'm going to do some foam form fitting in my drawers over the next couple weeks Earl. Looking good!


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## BlasterStumps

Looking really nice Earl. And no, I'm not more organized.


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## pottz

> Finally, someone after my own heart. I think Blaster might even be a bit more organized and neat than I am.
> 
> I like the carousels for the mallets and screwdrivers.
> 
> I m slowly transferring things into the bench drawers. Still more things to transfer out of the rolling carts.
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> - EarlS


damn earl i wish i had that much space.my tool drawers are full. probably because i have more tools than one man needs ? yours look pretty nice though.


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## controlfreak

Way to structured for me, I would be miserable.


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## pottz

> Way to structured for me, I would be miserable.
> 
> - controlfreak


yeah me too,i look at those drawers and think,hell so much wasted space ;-))


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## KelleyCrafts

I do agree with that. Plenty of space if you squeezed those tools together a bit more.


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## EarlS

By spacing things out like this I can find the tools when I need them and it limits just how much stuff I can keep since there is limited space. Having a place for everything also makes it easier when I clean up since each tool has a place to be stored.

I am trying to go thru everything and decide what I actually use and what is just accumulated junk. This isn't the only storage space though. Eventually, the drill press stand will have drawers and there will be a cabinet under the side table on the table saw as well.


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## Lazyman

I like the foam idea but I can never commit to a layout-analysis paralysis. Maybe if the price was cheaper it would not be as hard to decide? The price just seems crazy to me, though maybe I just don't know where to get it cheap.


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## EarlS

I went with the cheaper 3-pack Rockler knock off version and used a 20% off a single item coupon.


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## HokieKen

I use the Rockler version too. It does make things really nice but it also takes up space. It works well in my carving tool box but tool box drawers are too crowded for it.


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## KelleyCrafts

I think it's good for some drawers but not all drawers.


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## BurlyBob

Earl I see you have very good. I love my Two Cherries. I bought a 6 pack in there wooden box from Jamestown Distributors several years ago and have never regretted it.

I'm going to be trimming the bench sections to length and hoping to get a glue up done.


----------



## EarlS

Replacement Classic vise just arrived. I should have it installed this afternoon with pics to follow. Let's see if it actually works out that way.

BTW - I put up a FOR SALE post if anyone is interested in the Glide C vise.


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## EarlS

Classic is installed, no fuss, no muss. Easy peasy and it compliments the Duck foot hold fast.



















The Glide C is boxed up and ready to ship. Just need a buyer.


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## KelleyCrafts

So that bar doesn't slide through the hub?


----------



## EarlS

It does but you can tighten the retaining screw and catch it in the slot in the middle of the bar. I haven't unscrewed it yet. I'm planning to leave it loose so the bar slides down. Wouldn't want to catch anything on it in this configuration.


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## Lazyman

Ouch. The height does look a little dangerous in that configuration.


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## revrok

> Finally, someone after my own heart. I think Blaster might even be a bit more organized and neat than I am.
> 
> I like the carousels for the mallets and screwdrivers.
> 
> I m slowly transferring things into the bench drawers. Still more things to transfer out of the rolling carts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
> - EarlS












Wow, I feel organized because all of my files and rasps are put away… loose in the same drawer… I know I need to organize more when the drawer won't close! Hmmm… come to think of it!


----------



## HokieKen

Earl, you better quit wearing your wife's shoes in the shop. She's gonna get pissed.


----------



## TEK73

My Moxon vise is ready:


----------



## Mosquito

Awesome Tek, I like the handles


----------



## BlasterStumps

Nice TEK, I can appreciate the work that went into making that vise. Looks real nice and functional. Good work.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Wow man, excellent work on those wheels. They look great!


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## revrok

This makes a lot of sense… maybe my horder instincts are just too strong! Your organization does look very nice.



> By spacing things out like this I can find the tools when I need them and it limits just how much stuff I can keep since there is limited space. Having a place for everything also makes it easier when I clean up since each tool has a place to be stored.
> 
> I am trying to go thru everything and decide what I actually use and what is just accumulated junk. This isn t the only storage space though. Eventually, the drill press stand will have drawers and there will be a cabinet under the side table on the table saw as well.
> 
> - EarlS


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## Sylvain

Tek
Splendid screws and handles.


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## EricFai

Nice Moxon Vise.

Getting ready to start one myself, incorporated into a bench-top bench. I have had the hardware for a month now.


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## BurlyBob

I got the last big section of 'Bruiser' glued up today. I had to take a big section to my buddy's shop and use his 8" Powermatic joiner. Two passes over the cutters and I was able to snuggle up the last like magic. Tomorrow is sanding and hand planing to get rid of all the glue squeeze out.

I know many of you and the pros dislike tool wells. I've got 'Brusier' situated on my plywood sawhorse table with a tool well in the middle. I'm the odd man out, because I am really enjoying have a place to put my tools and having a clear work space on top of 'Brusier'. This is why we have so many options, just to suit our desires.


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## Lazyman

I like the idea of the tool well but the main reason I decided not to add one is that I wanted to maximize the flat area and didn't want it wider than about 24". If I finally decide to get rid of my old assembly table/bench to make more room in the shop, I may hang a small tool well off the back, similar to the one that Paul Sellers did but maybe just half the length.

If I do decommission the old bench, I will have to find a place for the vintage Columbian quick release vise I found last year, which I love. I thought about moving it to the new bench but I don't think it would work very well on the 5" thick top. Anyone ever put one of these on a thick benchtop?


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## BurlyBob

Nate. 'Brusier' is going to come out real close to 48" by 82" with a center tool well. I'm thinking that one side will be for serious hand tool work the other for assembly. The bottom of the tool well will be removable if I ever need to clamp a piece down there. I've been working on a 4'x4' saw horse table for years. I decided to keep the same dimensions as that's what I'm use to. Well except it's going to be somewhat longer. Also my philosophy is bigger is better. 'Bruiser' is going to be big, wide and stout. Just what I want!


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## BlasterStumps

It's amazing how big of a pita mounting a face vise can be. I took my time on it though and I believe I nailed it. Works very well for a $3.00 Habitat Restore find. Front jaw has leather on it. the back jaw is soft wood.


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## BlasterStumps

I have one of those Columbian quick release vises Nathan. I had it on a bench some time back but now it just sits on a shelf. Good little vise actually. Have not installed it on a thick work top. Can't think why it wouldn't be possible to put on a 5" top though.


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## Lazyman

Interesting Blast, I may have to at least give the old vise a try on the backside or one of the ends of the bench.



> Nate. Brusier is going to come out real close to 48" by 82" with a center tool well. I m thinking that one side will be for serious hand tool work the other for assembly. The bottom of the tool well will be removable if I ever need to clamp a piece down there. I ve been working on a 4×4 saw horse table for years. I decided to keep the same dimensions as that s what I m use to. Well except it s going to be somewhat longer. Also my philosophy is bigger is better. Bruiser is going to be big, wide and stout. Just what I want!
> 
> - BurlyBob


Bob, I've also seen some where they make the removable tool well so that they can invert it to bridge the gap when you don't want the well or a gap.

That monster bench is going to be awesome.


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## EricFai

Bob, sounds like you are coming along with your bench. Nathan, has a point there about the tool well. If you have cleats mounted to the bench to hold the well, if a need arises where you need a larger assembly table. Flip the well over and it rest on the cleats.

I personally like the larger flat surface. My current bench is a 8×4 sheet of sub flooring typed with a piece of hardboard. The base has been built up and has creates of fastners stacked stacked on the lower shelf.

Just about have my drawing figured out for a bench-top bench with a Moxon Vise. Hopefully I can get started in a few weeks.

Then it on to a real work bench design, thanks Earl.


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## EricFai

Chop question. Should the chop have a bit of an angle on the inside? If so should I take material off the bottom, or the top?

This one will be on a moxon vise. Hardware pack did not state anything about a slight angle. I have read about it someplace.


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## BlasterStumps

Eric, however it needs to be so that the top of the jaws come together first is my recommendation.


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## EricFai

Thanks, that helps. The chop will be just under 2" thick, Maple.


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## EarlS

Eric - Benchcrafted has downloadable instructions for making their Moxon vise. You might find some helpful ideas in them.

Bob - I like the idea of making the tool well reversible so you could flip it over and it would be flush with the top. If my top was 48" wide, I'd put some kind of tool well in it. That's a lot of work space. You will definitely have the biggest bench. Goliath?

I'm starting to consider a Hi-Vise. I had to cut some brass for the swap and had to put it in the leg vise and cut parallel to the top which was a pain. Being able to clamp the small pieces horizontally is the one thing I'm missing.


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## EricFai

Earl, I daw one to build in a Woodsmith plan a while back. When I get home I'll locate the issue. I think they had some brass highlights, and it clamped on to the edge of the bench.


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## HokieKen

My tool well on my bench is made so I can make a solid flat surface when needed.









The two gaps have ledgers nailed to the sides at the bottom. My plan was to build two boxes that sat on the ledgers so they were open at the top to act as tool wells then, if I needed to make it one big flat surface, I could just flip the boxes over and set them open-side down. I cut two pieces of plywood to fit in the bottom so I could use it until I got the boxes built. I still haven't built the boxes ;-) Or ever seen a need to. I have however removed the bottoms to clamp through the gaps a time or two.

I also recall someone posting recently about the front and back sections being different thicknesses and it being a concern because of the different lengths of the legs I think. If you look at the end of the bench in that picture, you can see that the back of my top is about 3/8" thicker than the front section. Why? Well, I spent a lot of time trying to get the front section flat with my power planer first. Then when I realized it was going to come down to hand planes, I spent a good deal of time learning to flatten a surface that big with hand planes and how to recognize and deal with twist. Long story short, I wasted a lot of material learning how to flatten it… But then when it was time to do the back piece, I had learned the hard lessons and things went much faster and smoother. So I had it flat on both sides and still had more material than on the front section. I pondered it for a bit and decided that was extra mass and that different thicknesses wouldn't make any functional difference. So I left it and just adjusted my back legs to be a little shorter than the front ones. Never been an issue for me.


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## HokieKen

> ...
> 
> I m starting to consider a Hi-Vise. I had to cut some brass for the swap and had to put it in the leg vise and cut parallel to the top which was a pain. Being able to clamp the small pieces horizontally is the one thing I m missing.
> 
> - EarlS


I prefer an engineer's vise (or machinist's or mechanic's depending on who's naming it) for those kinds of chores Earl. It's stronger and more versatile, especially if you get one that rotates like the one I linked. And you can make jaw liners for clamping wood parts.


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## controlfreak

So far the tool well on my Moravian has done well in its task. It is easy to empty and the far side acts a support for things like the window sash I am currently working on. I may need to rethink this setup if I embark on a chair build. I can't imagine a chair leg floating over the well or balancing on the thin tray wall. I plan on starting and seeing where it takes me.


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## BurlyBob

Yesterday got the last main section glue to the bench top. I had to take to my friends shop and use his 8" Powermatic joiner. The weight of this thing was causing my roller stands to compress. I couldn't get the edge level enough to flatten it out. When I got back home it went together super even.

I'm going to set the bench top aside while I perfect the leg mortise joint.


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## controlfreak

I can't imagine pushing that beast across a jointer.


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## DavePolaschek

> I prefer an engineer s vise (or machinist s or mechanic s depending on who s naming it) for those kinds of chores Earl. It s stronger and more versatile, especially if you get one that rotates like the one I linked. And you can make jaw liners for clamping wood parts.


I've got a couple mechanics vises and one of the things I keep meaning to do is drill a couple holes in the faces so I can mount wooden jaws without needing magnets (which invariably collect swarf because I mostly use the mechanics vises for metal working). Any suggestions from the brain trust on the best way to do that?


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## HokieKen

I just use magnets Dave.


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## KelleyCrafts

Magnets can be wiped off. I use these on the vise I use for metal work.


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## Lazyman

I think that most vintage mechanics vises usually have removeable jaws so you may not have to drill any holes? If you don't want to remove them to replace with soft jaws, you could probably remove the the jaws from the vise so that you can drill some holes on the drill press into those jaws and tap them, if they aren't hardened too much?

I have a pair of soft jaws similar to these for my mechanics' vise. I've never had a problem with the magnets collecting swarf. I've had them for about 7 or 8 years so they were much cheaper back then.

Woodsmith has plans for an auxilary vise that looks like it might be fun to make.










Their version of the high vise looks kind of interesting too.


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## EricFai

You found the one I referred to earlier. It actually looks nice.


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## Lazyman

Here is another interesting idea from Woodsmith for a vise. They show several different type of work holding devises mounted on the swivel but here is an image with a machinist vise.


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## EricFai

That looks neat, don't remember seeing that. It would work well to get the work up to a comfortable working height.


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## Boatman53

For temporary wood jaws I made these.









Jim


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## KentInOttawa

> For temporary wood jaws I made these.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jim
> 
> - Boatman53


Ooh! Me likey this a lot.


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## rad457

> For temporary wood jaws I made these.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jim
> 
> - Boatman53
> Ooh! Me likey this a lot.
> 
> - Kent


Yup, just thinking about all those plywood scraps, going to have to make a set up like this! LOL! I have a pair of slip on soft jaws that always seem to hide when needed but then again usually only clamp metal in my metal vise


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## Boatman53

I also made one like this for a different vise. Allows holding tapered things.









Sorry don't know why the transfer from my files rotated the pic.
Jim


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## Chenier

> I think that most vintage mechanics vises usually have removeable jaws so you may not have to drill any holes?


+1. My mechanic's vise definitely isn't vintage and has removable jaws. All that's needed is an Allen wrench. I have made both smooth steel and aluminum jaws for it. The original factory jaws with their knurled faces are rarely used because they mark *everything*. Machinists also use copper or aluminum sheet folded over the jaws to protect workpieces.

When I want wood jaws I cut a couple of appropriate strips of wood and stick them to the metal jaws with double-stick tape. No magnets.  If you don't like fussing with the tape, a wood or plastic strip piece that's "L" shape in profile (like the Bessey soft jaws Lazyman linked to, but without magnets) will sit on/in the vise without falling off while you clamp up. Once the clamp is tight those jaws aren't going anywhere. Dunno why anyone thinks you need magnets.


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## BurlyBob

Control freak, it really wasn't that bad. The section I took was only 6 board laminated together. It was heavy but manageable. When I got it back home it went together perfectly. I'm going to concentrate on the leg mortise joint now.


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## Lazyman

You are braver than I am Bob. After I glued up the first 6 boards or so, I decided that it would be easier to plane by hand than trying to manhandle it through my planer. Of course it helps that it was pine. Biggest problem with the pine was not getting mesmerized by how much fun it is to plane and remembering to stop.


----------



## DavePolaschek

> I have a pair of soft jaws similar to these for my mechanics' vise. I've never had a problem with the magnets collecting swarf. I've had them for about 7 or 8 years so they were much cheaper back then.


I have the same Bessey jaws. I'll take a picture of them tomorrow, but they're full of swarf. And plastic is just nasty here in the land of single-digit humidities. If the magnets aren't holding onto bits of metal, the plastic is collecting bits of wood with static electricity.


----------



## EarlS

Bob - I used the DW735 to plane the 2 top sections. They were a load (4" thick white oak, 7+ ft long) but the planer did a good job. I would turn off the planer after each pass, raise it up, push the section back thru, flip it over, lower the planer and run it thru, then repeat. The Wixey depth gauge was very helpful to make sure I didn't take too much off (1/32"/pass). Somehow I managed to do it without any help.

I like the idea of building a hi vise that would fit in the tail vise notch. I also like the look of the Woodsmith auxiliary vise. No matter what type of vise , the biggest issue will be finding a place to store it when I'm not using it. Guess that means I need to get moving on the table saw side and outfeed table with under table storage. I've got a general idea, but I probably need to start spending some time on SketchUp.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Here's my version of one Woodsmith high vise:



















On my new work surface that is 38" high, the high vise might come in a bit more handy. Could help get things up closer to work on.


----------



## EricFai

Nice version Mike. Looks like would work well.


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## EarlS

very nice Mike - is it oak?


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## TEK73

I'm guessing beech…


----------



## Mosquito

I've got a bench vise like what Kenny posted (mine's smaller and chaper), and I have it screwed to effectively a bench hook, where it has a cleat on the front that hits the front of the bench, and then I can use a holdfast on the back of it to hold it in place. I like it for how often I use it. I can just hook it on the front of the bench for light work, clamp the cleat in the leg vise for a "don't move too much" hold, or add the holdfast to the back for a "don't move" hold. Then I can remove it and throw it back on the shelf for the next couple of months…


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## BlasterStumps

It's made from white oak. The screw is something I found at the Restore. I don't know what it was for originally but it worked good for this build. On the back of the back jaw is just a big nut set into the wood. I made the bridle joint using hand tools. 
Here are a couple little better pictures:


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## BurlyBob

These are the latest photos of 'Bruiser'. I'm pretty much done working on the bench top till I get proficient and comfortable doing the the leg mortise. In the photos the front is on the left side and the three pieces on the top are for the outside edges where the leg mortise will be located. I've got the grain running from right to left as I'm right handed.
I'm pretty sure you all can imagine how heavy 'Bruiser' is getting. I know it's going to be fantastic when I'm done with it.
I'm thinking it's going to be just as big a center piece in my shop as my table saw is now.


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## EricFai

BBob, that is looking like a good surface for the bench top. I probably missed it, but what wood are you using for the bench?


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## BurlyBob

That's European Red Beech. In my area it's just about the least expensive wood I could find and it's a great stable dense wood for benches. I know Andre Roubo, in one of his books recommended it as one of the woods well suited for a bench.

My friend who got the wood for me told me a story a few years back. Apparently most all red beech is imported from Europe. A few years back a bunch of red beech had to be shipped back. Seems it came from Chernobyl.


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## EricFai

That has a nice straight grain from what I see at thus end. I'm thinking Maple when I get to that point.


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## BurlyBob

Eric, what's really going to be amazing is when I put the black walnut end caps on it. I'm also using a 9" x 8/4 piece of black nut for the leg vise. I might even get a piece for the sliding dead man.


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## EricFai

BBob, can't wait to see the finished bench. It will look nice with the color contrast.

I have a sketch drawing up for a bench-top bench with a Moxon. Planning on using Maple for that and mix some Walnut into it.


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## EarlS

> My friend who got the wood for me told me a story a few years back. Apparently most all red beech is imported from Europe. A few years back a bunch of red beech had to be shipped back. Seems it came from Chernobyl.
> 
> - BurlyBob


I wonder if you have to pay extra for glow-in-the-dark wood?

Eric - Dave K used different species of wood for the center section of his top which looks great. I also recall seeing a top that had different thicknesses of alternating wood that looked really good too. A couple strips of walnut in the a maple top would be killer.


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## KelleyCrafts

I had to do it to cut out a knot AND a racing stripe makes cutting DTs faster AND It also matched the stripes in my bench. So it worked out all over the place for me.


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## CL810

Beautiful!!


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## KelleyCrafts

Thanks!


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## Lazyman

How wide is your bench, Dave?


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## KelleyCrafts

The top is 72" X 24.75" X ~4.5" can't remember how thick exactly. I wish I could have done a long one but space is definitely an issue.


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## revrok

Definitely a lifetime bench… Great work!



> The top is 72" X 24.75" X ~4.5" can't remember how thick exactly. I wish I could have done a long one but space is definitely an issue.
> 
> - KelleyCrafts


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## controlfreak

Love the bench, a beauty!


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## KelleyCrafts

Thanks, it's been done for awhile and have been enjoying it. It's a little beat up now with some scratches, dents and dings but I think it has another 100 years or more left in the tank.


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## EricFai

Dave, great looking bench there.

Earl, I have though about different woods. I think Nathan used SYP for his. The determining factor is going to be cost. Yes mixing woods would really sharp.


----------



## Lazyman

Well the SYP at my HD and Lowes is now more than 3 times what I paid for it just a few months ago. I walked by the stack and the current price for 16' 2×12 was $67. I paid about $20-21 each for those. Even at $21, that was probably 50% higher than it was a year ago. I think that part of the problem is that the housing market is so hot in our area right now that the builders are grabbing every piece of 2-by pine they can find.


----------



## Mosquito

it's also compounded by the ongoing supply problem. Russia is the #2 exporter of construction lumber to the US (and also heavy in other countries), so when everyone started cutting them off with sanctions, it's now more economical for Canada to export elsewhere than to the US than it ever has been. Add that on top of all the wild fires Canada has been battling over the past few years, and things kinda suck lol


----------



## bigblockyeti

SYP at my nearest Lowes is $63.33 for a 2×12x16 and only $28.22 for SPF, which they don't have and can't ship and won't deliver. On the plus side, the extension for my sawmill should be here in a month or two, then I can cut up to 17' 6" long board.


----------



## Peteybadboy

Kellycrafts - wow on the bench!


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Thanks Petey. We must get a lot of new people to the thread or something, I might have to smack down pics of my bench every couple of months. Lol


----------



## rad457

> Thanks Petey. We must get a lot of new people to the thread or something, I might have to smack down pics of my bench every couple of months. Lol
> 
> - KelleyCrafts


Or one Bondo pose no one ever wants to see again?


----------



## rad457

dup.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

If I did a Bondo pose I would have to do it right, wearing a cape and a speedo. The wife said she would be embarrassed for some reason so she wouldn't take the photo for me. You'll just have to imagine it I guess.


----------



## EarlS

Awww - come on Dave - I did one, showed a little leg too. Don't make me post it again, after all, this is a family friendly forum. Some things are better off only being seen once.


----------



## EricFai

Or not seeing a all. Dave you wife was probably in her right mind not to take a photo.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

I think Eric has agreed with the wife. I'll leave it be.


----------



## bandit571

Cleared for action..


----------



## duckmilk

Now would be a great time for you to do a bondo pose Bandit ;-))


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Watch out for sharp objects in the tool well. Yet another reason not to have a tool well , Bondo pics.


----------



## BurlyBob

I've decided to take a break for a few days. I've got almost all the glue sanded and scraped off both sides of 'Bruiser'.
Man is it heavy. 9 pieces glued up are almost more than I can handle by myself. I've got a handful of annoying small things to get done and out of my way so I can concentrate on 'Bruiser'. I've got 5 hand plane Irons that need some attention after working on 'Bruiser'. That's first thing in the Am.


----------



## EarlS

Too bad Handworks was cancelled, I was hoping to have some LJ's stop by the shop on their way and do some Bondo pics on my bench.

Now that I think about it, I should have asked Duck to stop by and do one too when he was around these parts a couple of weeks back.

Bob - get a helper when you want to flip it over. I learned that the hard (and heavy) way.

Bandit - good to see you made it over to the dark side. That is the first time I recall seeing your entire bench top clear. We will get you turned into an organization and neat freak in no time.


----------



## HokieKen

I was able to handle my bench solo since I still had my old bench to work off of when I built it. But mine is significantly smaller than Earl's or Bob's. Especially with one the size of your's Bob, I'd do my best to plan the work to minimize the number of times the top needs to be flipped or moved and I'd try to line up some help if possible when it does need to be handled. Even if you can do it by yourself, that's just tempting fate to throw you a pulled muscle or worse ;-)

If help isn't available, an engine hoist and some lifting straps would be a good buddy.


----------



## Lazyman

I put the base on the floor and then had a helper to move and lower the top onto it. I figured that would be easier than trying to flip the entire thing down to the floor. The 3" deep M&T's were so tight, that the top had to be kept level while it was lowered into place so while I probably could have moved the top over to the base by myself, it would have been difficult to get it to settle into place by myself.

That reminds me. I never put any dowels into those joints. Not sure that I need to.


----------



## HokieKen

I pinned the front two leg M&T joints on mine but didn't drawbore them and left the back floating. My reasoning for pinning the front was the uneven floor in my shop. I was afraid if I moved it to a different spot it may let the base rack a little bit and cause the top to not set flush on all 4 legs. It was probably unnecessary though.


----------



## bandit571

There is a package sold at most "Lumberyard" stores…..Just a stack of wood shims…..that you can use under the legs of a bench to account for un-even floors, and to level things up….I needed a couple shims under one leg of my bench…because of the concrete floor.

May add a couple more to the front legs….to prevent things from rolling off…..maybe tilt it enough so that things (like chisels and pencils) will roll to the back of the bench, and right into the tool well….

Bondo? Tain't enough room for my fat "foundation" to sit on the bench….


----------



## MikeJ70

Life has been crazy so I haven't had much for shop time. Here's a shot of my second practice attempt at the hounds tooth dovetail for my front and rear laminates.










I've never really done much hand sawing so I just wanted to see where I was at ability wise. I am pretty happy with the results so I think with some more practice I should be able to pull it off. When I get to a point that I am happy with the tails, then I will layout for the pins and practice those.


----------



## EarlS

I think there are a couple of youtube vid's that show how to make the pins with a router. William Ng had something as well.


----------



## MikeJ70

Yeah, I've seen those Earl. Look at the spacing at the end of the tails. You can't get that tight with a router. I'm going to make a bandsaw jig this weekend and compare that to cutting by hand.



> Man is it heavy. 9 pieces glued up are almost more than I can handle by myself.
> 
> - BurlyBob


Bob, that's the only reason why I made mine a split top. I can handle both tops by myself. If I went solid, I would have had to rely on a neighbor to come help me every time I wanted to move it.


----------



## HokieKen

Looks good Mike. And your right about the tight pins, only way to get em is to cut em by hand  In my experience, the bandsaw is more trouble than it's worth for dovetails. I can cut them by hand just as fast and cleaner than with the bandsaw. I've never had any luck doing the pins with anything but a handsaw other than using a router jig to do the whole shebang.


----------



## MikeJ70

Thanks Kenny. I will have 4 to do so I figured I'd give the bandsaw a try to see if I could do it better and faster. You are correct though and it does go pretty fast by hand.

To cut them by hand, I have the board at an angle in my leg vise so the cut is more horizontal than vertical so it's a little awkward. I've thought about making some type of jig to hold it vertical, but since it's a 7' board I would have to work off of a ladder or platform so I'm not sure that's going to be any better.


----------



## HokieKen

Know any drywallers Mike?


----------



## MikeJ70

Ha! yeah that would solve the problem.


----------



## Sylvain

Clamping to the railing of a balcony, a terrace or the landing of a staircase might be better as the board should be tightened near the saw to avoid vibrations.

I have done this to trim the bottom of a door with a plane.


----------



## EarlS

> Yeah, I ve seen those Earl. Look at the spacing at the end of the tails. You can t get that tight with a router. I m going to make a bandsaw jig this weekend and compare that to cutting by hand.
> 
> - BurlyBob
> 
> The video I was referring to was more of template router approach, not the typical dovetail approach. I'll have to do some looking to find it.


----------



## MikeJ70

Sylvain, I have heard of people doing that, unfortunately, I don't have a balcony or railing that would allow me to do it. I was thinking I could use some scrap lumber and build a stand-off from a wall that would allow me to clamp it and provide the support I need.


----------



## MikeB_UK

Kneel on the bench and cut down, marking the pins is the tricky bit


----------



## Lazyman

That's why you make a heavy bench. Clamp in the leg vise and stand on the bench. Wait, is this the chicken or the egg you are trying to make.


----------



## EricFai

Not sure if a Bench-Top Bench fits on this forum.

Started milling the 8/4 Maple I've had for over a month now. Took some time this evening to flatten and square up one edge on 2 boards. So I can run them trough the table saw.

I don't have a jointer, so I had to do this by hand. I foundva couple of Miller's Falls planes last week, needed to sharpen the irons. Thevone I chose to use thus evening was #14C, after I sharpened it, it seems to work well for me. Edge is flat and square now.









My next step is to cut the bench top pieces, and the front and rear chop for the Moxon Vise that will be on this little bench.


----------



## Sylvain

> Cleared for action..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - bandit571


Am I wrong or have you re-flattened your workbench. (just skimming it)


----------



## bandit571

Yep…high spots show up, from time to time…


----------



## EricFai

More progress on the Bench-top Bench with the Moxon.

Front and rear chop cut, and boards for the top cut. 









Spent some time this evening doing layout for the moxon hardware, then figured out the rear leg placement, and dog holes. Had to ensure that nothing interferes with the hardware, to include the aprons. So almost ready to setup the drill press.

I would rather drill everything I can in a square block. Then off to chopping out some mortise.

If any is interested I started a blog with more details.

https://www.lumberjocks.com/EricFai/blog/series/23634


----------



## Lazyman

If you have the means to make the socket, this Millers Falls 56 Bench Planing Stop could be a good deal for someone.


----------



## HokieKen

Hush Nathan! It's on my watch list ;-)


----------



## controlfreak

Mine too now Kenny. Never seen one of these before, any idea what size the hole is?

I am not going to bid it up unless you say "I'm out". Hell, I probably will fall asleep and forget to bid anyway.


----------



## Lazyman

It is missing the metal socket that sits in the bench. So it will take some creativity or machining to use it.


----------



## HokieKen

Like Nathan said CF, that's really only half of the stop. It's missing the sleeve that it slides in which is what you install into the bench top. So unless you want to pay someone (aka me) to machine you a custom sleeve for it, you probably don't want it. You are unlikely to stumble onto the other half running stag in the wild ;-)


----------



## Mosquito

or buy a complete $60 Lee Valley replica, and hope that its sleeve fits this one 

(that does not sound like something outside of my willingness to do either…)


----------



## BurlyBob

So I spent the day trying work the bugs out of that leg mortise joint. It didn't work out. Both sides split on me. Tomorrow I'm back at it. I'm going to change the angles and see what happens. I really can't do anything else till I get this joint issue solved.


----------



## bandit571

Got Mortises to chop, Tuesday..so..









The Handy-Dandy Mortise Jig gets attached to the top of the bench's leg…no bouncing allowed…









Quick release clamp, to keep things steady…only have to chop down 1/2"....and, I can work while sitting down on my shop stool….will see how long each mortise takes….and how many Guinness Stouts to recover….


----------



## EarlS

Bob - post some pictures of the problem. I'll bet the collective can help.


----------



## controlfreak

I thought that MF stop was a dog hole version I hadn't seen before. If I can by new at $60 it isn't worth the effort to reinvent the wheel.


----------



## Mosquito

But new won't say Millers Falls on it


----------



## KelleyCrafts

I thing wrong with it saying Veritas on it.


----------



## Mosquito

Agreed, but I know Kenny lol

I've had the Veritas on my "Purchase later" list for quite a while… I've nearly bought it a few times, but haven't yet. I'm sure I will some day though.


----------



## Mosquito

Though looking at it, I guess there's nothing that would indicate that you need the base of it either… I'm sure it would work fine in a round dog hole too, even though it may be able to turn. My round bench dogs are fine, so I imagine this would be too


----------



## KelleyCrafts

I say we all just bid the MF one up a couple bucks for fun. As a gift to Kenny.


----------



## Mosquito

lol I almost posted that same thought yesterday


----------



## BurlyBob

Mos, I have been thinking about that and if I don't have any success today I'll post a couple of photos.


----------



## Lazyman

> or buy a complete $60 Lee Valley replica, and hope that its sleeve fits this one
> 
> (that does not sound like something outside of my willingness to do either…)
> 
> - Mosquito


LOL. I actually though about that since I already have the Veritas one. Whoever buys it can have it shipped to me and I can see if it works.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Not sure that's even worth it. The Veritas has added features. It's a replica but it's actually better and for a decent price imo. This MF one is only worth the hassle to one dude I know and that's it, we all know who that is and even then I dont think it's worth the hassle but he's a cheap ass so to him it probably is.


----------



## HokieKen

Well, it's approaching my limit on it already so it's gonna get bid out of my range I'm sure. I agree, unless you just stumble on a good deal or just want the MF one because it's red and says Millers Falls, the Veritas is a much better choice.


----------



## HokieKen

> I say we all just bid the MF one up a couple bucks for fun. As a gift to Kenny.
> 
> - KelleyCrafts





> lol I almost posted that same thought yesterday
> 
> - Mosquito


Y'all suck ;-)


----------



## rad457

Am I the only one who would never put a chunk of steel in my work bench? LOL! still regret the metal screwed vises!
I use the Veritas plane stops and brass pop ups that will blunt a blade but so far no chipped irons, but then again any thing that needs major stock removal goes to the Jointer?


----------



## Mosquito

I fully agree, the Veritas option looks great, and that's why I intend to get one (or two) eventually. I wasn't knocking it at all, I just understand the draw of vintage originals too


----------



## Mosquito

just be careful Andre lol

Currently what I use for a planing stop is a piece of 1/8" plywood with 2 dowels glued in it that line up with a dog hole and a holdfast hole.

Then I can creatively use holdfasts and scrap boards for a makeshift sticking board too


----------



## EricFai

Hey Kenny, we're not all like that, just select a few.


----------



## EarlS

Once the bid went over $1 Kenny was out, so bidding it up wouldn't help him. Not that I wouldn't give him that kind of help if required.


----------



## theoldfart

I use the same setup as Mos, works well for me. I did recently add the Crucible bench stop.


----------



## controlfreak

I took a scrap and a oak dowel and chuck the other end in my leg vise. It is cheap and works great but my wagon vise is pretty pissed off about it and getting lonely.

Back to the metal plane stop, anybody care to admit if they cut it to close and ran a plane iron into it?


----------



## KelleyCrafts

I haven't had mine for a long time. Probably only used it 15 times and haven't come close yet. I only use it when the tail vise is crowded or in use so it's not my first stop in holding a board. (See what I did there?)


----------



## BurlyBob

That I'd finally nailed it. Then I took the mortise apart, tried it again and found it cracking. I'm headed back out to try it again. I know I'm close, I just need to tweak it a little. Photos to follow later.


----------



## DavePolaschek

> I took a scrap and a oak dowel and chuck the other end in my leg vise. It is cheap and works great but my wagon vise is pretty pissed off about it and getting lonely.
> 
> Back to the metal plane stop, anybody care to admit if they cut it to close and ran a plane iron into it?


I've hit a metal plane stop with a plane. Bad words were said.

My current planing stop is a piece of oak scrap with a couple wood screws through it into the top of the bench. The wood screws are countersunk enough that I have to plane off almost a quarter inch of the top of the planing stop before I'm in any danger of hitting them. But then my bench top is a piece of 3/4 plywood, and when it gets too beat up to patch with bamboo kebab skewers, I'll screw another piece to the top, and if it's too high, I'll saw 3/4 inch off the legs.


----------



## HokieKen

When I built my bench, I pondered whether to make brass or wood dogs. I figured with brass I would never have to replace them but with wood I wouldn't have to worry about hitting them with a plane. I ended up going with wood. And in 5 years have never hit one of them with a plane. I've never broken a wooden one yet either though so I say either is a good choice.

For a bench stop though, I like the steel designs because of the teeth that will dig into the end of the board. If I chip a blade someday, I'll learn to check the stop position more carefully…

And I put in my max bid on the MF stop on Ebay. I'm winning now but it's in the hands of the gods.


----------



## Mosquito

I use my wagon vise a bunch too, just depends on what I'm doing. If it's narrower stock that won't allow the use of a plane fence if they're in the dogs, that's a good reason to not use them lol

I've hit a couple of my wooden bench dogs with a plane before, but usually it's on really thin stock and I figured I might, so it wasn't really an "accident". I split the one in my wagon vise … wagon?. Replaced it with one of the oak ones I had laying around, and been using it since. So I guess I've broken/replaced one in about 9 years


----------



## KelleyCrafts

I have a special bench hook for thin stock that I use.

In my tail vise I have brass dogs across the front and haven't ever hit them. I don't really worry about it either.

Good luck Kenny!


----------



## BurlyBob

Here's mortise #3 & 4. I'm thinking the issues is the wedges are to long and not enough angle and the mortise needs to be real tight to the tenon.









































































I'm looking for any advice as tomorrow I start #5.

I was feeling pretty good about that finished joint for a short while. Then I saw it was starting to crack. Just so you all know I'm going to win this fight one way or the other! Tomorrow is another day.


----------



## Lazyman

It is a little tough to see, Bob. Is that a dovetail tenon and is there a regular tenon further in like you often see on Roubo benches? If so, I have never seen wedges in the dovetail tenon along the edge. I have only seen them wedge the straight one. In general, it seems to me that the wedges are too close to the end. I think that narrow piece should be about twice as thick?


----------



## EricFai

BBob, I have not done any wedged tenons, but I think Nathan has said it, appears to be to close to the edge.

What if you used a single wedge? I am going to be watching you, to see how you do it. The Bench top Bench I'm building I am tossing the idea around about a through tennon with a wedge for the back legs, to ensure they stay tight.


----------



## BurlyBob

Nathan this is the internal tenon that I'm trying to perfect. I'm doing it like this to see what I need to correct before trying it on my Roubo bench.

If you've watch the bench build that Matt Estlea, this will be the interior joint that a straight piece than a beveled joint on the outside edge. I tried the wedged joint Estlea showed but it broke very easily.


----------



## bandit571

Hmmm…try with the kerf centered on the hole…

Hmmm#2….Too big of a wedgie…..scale it back. Those packs of shims you buy at the Home Center, for installing doors? Cut ONE to length… and try that…Shims are ripped from a 2×4….about 1-1/2" wide or so…

pack costs ( used to, anyway..) $0.99 + Tax….

My bench was a bit busy…for almost 2 hours, today..


----------



## Lazyman

Bob, I got curious and watched a couple of videos. In this one they cut the kerf for the wedge at an angle. He claims that it prevents the split from continuing down the leg.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Looks like also that David's wedges are only cut on an angle on one side.


----------



## rad457

I usually go with the 1/3 rule, and relief hole centered.


----------



## EarlS

Bob - Pictures certainly help us see what you are doing.

I think you are on the right path: thinner wedge, center the kerf, move the relief hole in a bit, taper the kerf slightly, taper both sides of the wedge.


----------



## HokieKen

When I wedge tenons, I always just cut a straight kerf and then just angle the wedge. There's no real advantage to having uniform contact along the full length. You just need the wedge to compress the wood to lock it in. I center the kerf on the relief hole too but I doubt if it really matters as long as they intersect somewhere.


----------



## BurlyBob

Nathan, that was one of the first videos I watched and got turned onto this whole thing. I'm headed back out there to try a couple of different ideas and the advice I've gotten here. I'm beginning to get down in the dumps thinking I'm going to screw this whole thing up.

Here's another issue. About 1" below the bottom of the bench top there will be another mortise for a cross stretcher to support the weight of the bench top as it will be a split top with a tool well. The Idea of a crack running to the floor has got me pretty down. I've got both sides of the bench glued up and can go any further till I solve this problem.


----------



## HokieKen

Bob, after looking closer, I think your wood split below that relief hole because the wedge is too long. I'd bet a dollar if you cut 1/2" off the bottom of that wedge, that crack wouldn't have formed.


----------



## BurlyBob

So this is attempt #5.










Just so you know I spent a crap load of time getting every thing nice and flat, Square and accurate. The top of the mortise is 5 degrees. I used my fancy new amazing Jessem fence to cut the wedges at 6 degrees. The relief hole is 3/16" set 1/4 off the side of the tenon. These are the results.

I had to stop for the day and tackle the yard which was looking pretty scraggelley.

Tomorrow I' going to go back a try the David Barron wedged joint, once again. I'm going to win this battle on way or the other!


----------



## HokieKen

I still think wedges are too long Bob. Because you have uour relief holes at the point where the mortise walls change direction, driving wedges down that far is putting the circumference of that hole in tension. And that's when wood breaks. If your wedges were even only half that long, I think you'd minimize the stress that hole is seeing without compromising the joint strength at all.


----------



## HokieKen

And you're a far more persistent man than I. 5 test joints? I'd have already slapped duct tape and dryeall screws on it ;-)


----------



## BurlyBob

Ken I'll definitely give that a try. I'm also going to give that David Barron/Matt Estlea joint another try.

I'm going to win this scrap one way or another. I'm beginning I might have to cut the mortise slopes a bit shallower.
The mortise slope is what holds the bench top to the legs and base. That's why it's so important I get this done right!


----------



## EricFai

More work on my Moxon Vise today, nice day to be in the shop with the doors open. Good progress, have the hardware installed to the chops and the clamping ears cut.









For those who like to read here is the blog link
https://www.lumberjocks.com/EricFai/blog/series/23634


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Getting close Eric!!

Bob, I think Kenny nailed it. The wedges only need to be long enough to spread the tenon to its max, they absolutely don't need to fill the whole gap to do the job, the tenon won't ever come out once they are glued in.


----------



## BurlyBob

Ken, thanks for the pat on the back. You all may be right. I'm going to try both ideas tomorrow. I'd have tried another today but my lawn was looking pretty shaggy.

I'll post more photos with my results. I'm going to keep trying to till I get this done to my faction.


----------



## TEK73

> Not sure that's even worth it. The Veritas has added features. It's a replica but it's actually better and for a decent price imo.
> 
> - KelleyCrafts


Where do the sell it?


----------



## Mosquito

Lee Valley


----------



## EarlS

> Ken I ll definitely give that a try. I m also going to give that David Barron/Matt Estlea joint another try.
> 
> I m going to win this scrap one way or another. I m beginning I might have to cut the mortise slopes a bit shallower.
> The mortise slope is what holds the bench top to the legs and base. That s why it s so important I get this done right!
> 
> - BurlyBob


Consider how heavy the top is. The weight is probably doing more to keep things from moving than the wedged tenons.

I agree with Kenny that the wedges are too wide. The wedges are tapered on both sides. That means the effective angle is twice what it would be if one side was flat. I realize having both sides of the wedge tapered was a recommendation, but I'm starting to wonder if the interior face of the wedge should be flat to reduce the stress on the tenon. I also wonder if the angle of the wedge should be essentially the same as the taper in the top with the relief hole below where the top tapers out.

Maybe move the relief holes closer to the middle and make them a bit larger as well?


----------



## theoldfart

I wanted to be able to dismantle my bench for moving so the tenons are not wedged. I used BenchCrafted bench bolts. It takes two bottle jacks to get the top off. There have been no issues with movement as far as the tenons are concerned. I even have some gaps on them from shrinkage. I think wedges are overkill with a heavy top.


----------



## BurlyBob

I did another tenon yesterday. The bevel on the mortise is 5 degrees. I tried 5, 6, and 7 degree wedges. The 7 degree seemed to work better but it did split at the relief hold, again. I'm going to try that David Barron mortise joint today. He recommends an angle cut to within 1/8 of an inch from the outside edge of the mortise. I'm beginning to think running the cut below the bottom of the mortise might be the answer and of course shorter wedges. I'm beginning to think that if I can't succeed with this joint just put the top like shown in the Benchcrafted plans and call it quits. That would be far easier and faster.


----------



## BurlyBob

Veni, Vidi, Vici. I am victorious!!! I won the battle with the wedged through mortise and tenon joint!!! 
The first photo is with 6 degree wedges and the second is with 5 degree wedges. I'm liking the looks of the 5 degree wedges. I've been on this joint for 2 weeks and the last attempt was #7.



















What I'm really satisfied with is the fact I can repeat this process on all 4 legs. So I'm good to go with the leg joints. Now it's on to getting proficient with half blind hounds tooth dovetails. That begins tomorrow.


----------



## EricFai

Lucky #7. Good job, now I can use something like that on the legs for my Bench-top Bench. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## HokieKen

Looks like a winner to me Bob. Well done


----------



## Lazyman

So are you supposed to glue in those wedges? It kind of looks like they could squeeze out if you didn't?


----------



## BurlyBob

Nathan I don't know if your suppose to but I'm going to squirt some glue down each side of the tenon and in the slits. Then I'm going to pound the wedges in and call it quits.


----------



## Lazyman

That is what I would do too Bob but I wasn't sure if that is how it was traditionally done. When they used wedges and dowels in their joinery, they often didn't use or need to use glue so I was curious what is recommended.

I never did fasten my top to the legs. Once I drove the draw bores home on the the stretchers, it pretty much locked the top blind mortises too, especially with the weight of the top on them. I suppose that if I tried to lift the top from both ends, it might come off but when I just lift one end the base comes with it. If it ever loosens up and becomes a problem, I will just drill some holes for dowels.


----------



## HokieKen

Unless you sand the kerf and the wedges to a very slick finish, I don't think you'll see them sliding back out of there ;-) But I'd glue them too just for piece of mind. And the glue will act as a lubricant to make them go in easier too. I would probably keep the glue light and keep it in the center to avoid accidentally gluing the tenon to the wall of the mortise. Just in case you needed to get it apart one day for whatever reason. Never say never…


----------



## Bearcontrare

Been seeing some videos on the tube where people are lining their leg and other vices with various materials.
Having been in three generations of woodshops with plain wooden jaws, I have no experience with this practice. Is there really any advantage to these linings? Just curious.


----------



## controlfreak

> Been seeing some videos on the tube where people are lining their leg and other vices with various materials.
> Having been in three generations of woodshops with plain wooden jaws, I have no experience with this practice. Is there really any advantage to these linings? Just curious.
> 
> - Bearcontrare


There is a material called "Grubber" that I wanted but back ordered forever at the time so I bought some cork but never used it. I saw somewhere that someone used chamois cloth so I gave it a try. Its cheap grips well and doesn't mar. I recommend it.


----------



## BurlyBob

Yeah, I don't know if I really need glue. I'm pretty sure it's no traditional for that wedged joint but I'm going to do it. It looks like there's a lot of gappage in that joint. I'm thinking that could lead to problems down the road. Maybe not in my life time, but somewhere down the road. I'm thinking a healthy shot of Roo Glue would do the trick.


----------



## CL810

Bob this may be too late, but I used David Barron's method and really liked the results.


----------



## BurlyBob

CL810,

That,s pretty much what I'm trying to copy. My last effort seemed to prove it out. You just got to respect those in the old world using old world techniques. They never fail.


----------



## rad457

I put paste wax on parts that glue squeeze out wanted, if ever need to finish a little DNA will remove it cleanly.
When I dry fitted my Bench top to the legs they slipped in so snug that they have never come off


----------



## EarlS

Bear - Benchcrafted includes crubber with their vises, basically is is ground up rubber that mimics cork but is a lot more durable. I glued a strip on both faces of my leg vise and also on the bench dogs. The premise is that it is pliable and will compress and avoid having a crease in whatever you are working on if you tighten the vise too much.

Bob - good to see it worked. Patience and persistance!!!


----------



## Bearcontrare

Thank you guys for your responses, The videos I have seen included leather, chamois, immitation leather, cork and this "crunber" stuff.
Now I understand the idea behind it. I may go ahead with chamois at some point, we'll see.
Thank you for the information, guys!!!


----------



## BlasterStumps

Barry when I mounted this little vise the other day, I used some double faced tape to adhere a piece of leather to the one jaw. I have only used the vise a couple times since but it seems to hang on to the piece of wood pretty good. I figure if the leather starts to have issues, no big deal to replace with something else.


----------



## Lazyman

I think that crubber is just a cork and rubber gasket material. It might be cheaper at auto parts store. I've seen sheets of it on Amazon too.

I tried my leg vise without it first and I could fairly easily move the piece but with the crubber, I can pick up my bench.


----------



## CL810

I was thinking about something regarding wedges and what not and decided to go looking for some old posts on the original workbench thread and came across this pic. Hope we're still friends Chris!!!

Best Bondo pose ever!


----------



## Mosquito

> Bob this may be too late, but I used David Barron's method and really liked the results.
> 
> - CL810


That's exactly how I built my mini-roubo for our "Shop Art Swap", where I built the mini bench clock lol (#3 plane for size reference)












> I was thinking about something regarding wedges and what not and decided to go looking for some old posts on the original workbench thread and came across this pic. Hope we re still friends Chris!!!
> 
> Best Bondo pose ever!
> 
> - CL810


lol it's come up a few times recently  If I cared, I would take it down, this is why I host my own images, I get full control over it ;-)


----------



## CL810

In first iteration of this thread the OP reminded everyone to tag their project posts with "smackdown" so there would show up in a search on that keyword

To add the tag "smackdown" Click on the edit button in the project posting of your bench. Then scroll down to the Tag sections and add the word smackdown. Then your bench will show up. It's a great way for guys thinking about building a bench to see everyone's interpretation.


----------



## HokieKen

> ...
> 
> lol it s come up a few times recently  If I cared, I would take it down, this is why I host my own images, I get full control over it ;-)
> 
> - Mosquito


Yeah, you take it down and see if it doesn't still come up from time to time ;-)


----------



## bandit571

Amazing how things look when a bench has been cleared off..









However…it just doesn't STAY that way very long..









90 minutes later….


----------



## CL810

And that is why I used the link rather than a screen shot so if you were tired of it being posted you could remove it. Anyway, it brought back fond memories of your inspiration for the pic!



> lol it s come up a few times recently  If I cared, I would take it down, this is why I host my own images, I get full control over it ;-)
> 
> - Mosquito


----------



## Mosquito

Good times had by all lol


----------



## BurlyBob

If any of you are interested I posted photos of the planes I want to sell over on Moke's workshop page if your interested in checking them out.


----------



## Lazyman

> If any of you are interested I posted photos of the planes I want to sell over on Moke s workshop page if your interested in checking them out.
> 
> - BurlyBob


I would create a listing in the buy and sell forum, if you want a wider audience. Anyway, here is the link it in Moke's thread so the local audience doesn't have to page through the thread to find it.


----------



## BlasterStumps

I was successful in updating my "shop" pictures. Thanks again guys for the how-to info. 
Here is link: https://www.lumberjocks.com/BlasterStumps/workshop


----------



## Lazyman

Nice Shop, though it really pisses me off when I see a shop that you can walk through. ;-)


----------



## EarlS

I need to get things sorted out now that there is a lathe in the shop. Every time I start moving things around trying to find a better organization I'm reminded of the puzzle where there is one open square and you move the squares around until you get the design or picture. Now that I think of it, that puzzle might have been the precursor of the Rubik's cube.

At any rate, the lathe is only partially functional. One side of the 2 speed switch for the motor doesn't work. Cheap ChinAmazon junk. Still, I should be able to try it out this weekend. I'm going to make a piece of abstract art that looks a lot like a blob.


----------



## EricFai

Earl, I have done a scale drawing of the floor space, then make little scale pieces for the shop equipment to assist me in the layout. Sure beats moving all the heavy stuff a few times.


----------



## DavePolaschek

Earl, you're playing sokoban which was invented in 1982. The Rubik's Cube was invented in 1974, but wasn't mass-marketed until 1980.

Edited to add, the 15 sliding tile puzzle which you may be thinking of, was invented in 1880 or perhaps earlier.


----------



## HokieKen

> I need to get things sorted out now that there is a lathe in the shop. Every time I start moving things around trying to find a better organization I m reminded of the puzzle where there is one open square and you move the squares around until you get the design or picture. Now that I think of it, that puzzle might have been the precursor of the Rubik s cube.
> 
> At any rate, the lathe is only partially functional. One side of the 2 speed switch for the motor doesn t work. Cheap ChinAmazon junk. Still, I should be able to try it out this weekend. I m going to make a piece of abstract art that looks a lot like a blob.
> 
> - EarlS


For a lathe like yours Earl, if I intended to use it long-term, I would invest in a 3 phase motor and VFD for it. 3 phase motors can be found on CL/FBMP or Ebay for good prices and you only need 3/4-1 hp and there are good generic VFDs available in the $100 range. I only suggest this because to me, variable speed on a lathe is an extremely nice convenience and can cut down on frustration and lessen the learning curve significantly. And I'm betting your dad used an off-the-shelf motor so I'm sure finding one with a shaft to fit your drive pulley wouldn't be an issue. Just food for thought.

As far as organizing the shop, I've done it and redone it about a dozen times over 6 years. Now I've got 3 machines that are a PITA to move (metal mill, metal lathe, wood lathe) so I tend to just work with what I have. I will have some space freeing up in the next year though when I build a shed outside and relocate all of my lawn care stuff though so I might reshuffle the tiles again after that.


----------



## KentInOttawa

> Earl, I have done a scale drawing of the floor space, then make little scale pieces for the shop equipment to assist me in the layout. Sure beats moving all the heavy stuff a few times.
> 
> - Eric


+1

I drew the basic shop floor plan on one piece of graph paper (1/4" square = 6" IRL) and the major pieces on another. I reinforced the movable pieces with scotch tape and then cut them out. I dropped them all on a table in the shop along with a cup of coffee and proceeded to fiddle and play with some placements.










I found that being in the space helped me to relate to things like light switches and opening or closing windows.


----------



## Lazyman

I drew up a plan in Sketchup when I was planning for my bench build to figure out if and how big of a bench I could fit. You can find some of the machines that someone has already drawn to scale on their 3D warehouse and I had draw a few shop furniture items when I built them too. Even if you cannot find the exact model in the 3DW, you can find something similar and rescale it to match yours. For others, a simple drawing or even a cube or cylinder will suffice. 








Being able to see it in 3D or even sort of walk through it virtually helps to verify that it will actually work. 









It took a few hours to put it together for the first time but revisions and additions only take a few minutes.


----------



## EarlS

Like I told Duckmilk, I kind of feel like the monkey NASA used for some of the early launch tests. There are a whole lot of people telling me things I don't understand. My approach will be to try some very basic lathe work - handles for screwdrivers and chisels. Then, after I get some experience I will have a better understanding of what to change.

I probably won't ever get done "reorganizing" the shop. I like your approach Nathan. It gives me an excuse to play in SketchUp.


----------



## BlasterStumps

I like those shop plans. I can imagine they made it easier to get started laying out the tools and benches. I did one on a home design architect drawing program. Nothing very elaborate but it helped.


----------



## Sylvain

I would do like Kent.
I don't want to spend hours learning cad for a one-off use.


----------



## Lazyman

Yeah, if I didn't already use Sketchup to draw out plans for woodworking projects, it might have been really frustrating. When I tried just using the plan view drawings it just didn't give me a feel for what it would really be like but the 3D plan really helps to visualize spacing especially with the heights also taken into account. For me the vertical dimensions really helps, especially now that my shop space is so tight.


----------



## bigblockyeti

> Like I told Duckmilk, I kind of feel like the monkey NASA used for some of the early launch tests. There are a whole lot of people telling me things I don t understand. My approach will be to try some very basic lathe work - handles for screwdrivers and chisels. Then, after I get some experience I will have a better understanding of what to change.
> 
> I probably won t ever get done "reorganizing" the shop. I like your approach Nathan. It gives me an excuse to play in SketchUp.
> 
> - EarlS


I have (am) running into the same problem. I got my first Craftsman tube lathe ~9 years ago and I sort of understand the concepts of executing some of the more complicated processes, like riding the bevel on a skew chisel, but I'm lacking in the patience department. I just want it to work and well and the first time. I don't have any carbide tooling but I understand it's supposed to be a little easier at the expense of a less fine finish. I now have a Delta 1460 which is a far more substantial lathe but the techniques are the same, just with less unwanted vibrations. My sharpening game is sub-par and I believe the cost of good carbide tooling would be worth the investment but I've been reluctant to pull the trigger for various reasons.


----------



## duckmilk

> Like I told Duckmilk, I kind of feel like the monkey NASA used for some of the early launch tests. There are a whole lot of people telling me things I don t understand. My approach will be to try some very basic lathe work - handles for screwdrivers and chisels. Then, after I get some experience I will have a better understanding of what to change.
> 
> I probably won t ever get done "reorganizing" the shop. I like your approach Nathan. It gives me an excuse to play in SketchUp.
> 
> - EarlS


Hey Earl, you never did tell me if you want that stepped pully for your motor. Let me know and it will be in the mail.


----------



## EarlS

Mike - I should have idea whether I need the stepped pulley after this weekend. I'm hoping to make a first attempt at turning something tomorrow. One side of the 2-speed switch doesn't work so I have to send it back and get another one. Meanwhile, I'll run it as a single speed.


----------



## Lazyman

Earl, Did you check the switch with a multimeter to make sure that is really the switch? I just used cheap 3-way (on-off-on) toggle switches to wire my blower motor. Basically the middle position is off and the other 2 are the different speeds. Just make sure that the switch is rated for the the A/C amps and voltage you need.


----------



## EarlS

> Earl, Did you check the switch with a multimeter to make sure that is really the switch? I just used cheap 3-way (on-off-on) toggle switches to wire my blower motor. Basically the middle position is off and the other 2 are the different speeds. Just make sure that the switch is rated for the the A/C amps and voltage you need.
> 
> - Lazyman


Dad spent a bunch of time checking it out yesterday when I was at work. It was rated for 15 or 20A and the description specifically mentioned 2 speed blower motors.


----------



## controlfreak

I bought one of those MF replica recessed plane stops from Veritas. Now I just need to figure out where in the bench to put it. Anyone who put one in before did you use a forstner bit or hole saw for the recess?


----------



## Lazyman

The diagram on the side of the motor will tell you the colors but this is basically what I did.


----------



## HokieKen

> I bought one of those MF replica recessed plane stops from Veritas. Now I just need to figure out where in the bench to put it. Anyone who put one in before did you use a forstner bit or hole saw for the recess?
> 
> - controlfreak


If I were doing it, I think I'd do the counterbore first with a forstner that's slightly undersized and stop a hair shallow, then drill the thru hole using the center from the forstner to keep it aligned. Finally I'd go back with my router and a template to make sure the counterbore was precisely the right diameter and depth and dead square to the top.


----------



## controlfreak

> I bought one of those MF replica recessed plane stops from Veritas. Now I just need to figure out where in the bench to put it. Anyone who put one in before did you use a forstner bit or hole saw for the recess?
> 
> - controlfreak
> 
> If I were doing it, I think I'd do the counterbore first with a forstner that's slightly undersized and stop a hair shallow, then drill the thru hole using the center from the forstner to keep it aligned. Finally I'd go back with my router and a template to make sure the counterbore was precisely the right diameter and depth and dead square to the top.
> 
> - HokieKen


Good idea but I will need to figure out how to make the template now, my troubles never end. May need to start at the drill press and see if I can get something dead on. Probably the first time firing up the router in two years.


----------



## RaptorFuel

Hi everyone! I got a lot of ideas for this bench from this thread. I made it to be my woodworking bench and outfeed table for my table saw and bandsaw. I wanted something that was solid, looked halfway decent and didn't take long to build. The top is one and a half inch thick oak salvaged from an old dining room table, which saved a ton of time, and the frame is poplar. It's not the fanciest looking bench but it's absolutely solid with zero racking and it can be disassembled into its major components if I move. I still want to add a vise to the end and dog holes. The vise is a Wilcox and was my great grandfathers, probably made in the 20s.

The only thing I don't like is that the bench slides too easily on the smooth concrete. Is there a thin grippy pad I can add to the bottom of the feet?


----------



## EricFai

You might try and weight up the bottom shelf, that should keep it in place.


----------



## controlfreak

I agree with Eric, Add some mass underneath and it will help a lot. Looks great!


----------



## controlfreak

> Good idea but I will need to figure out how to make the template now, my troubles never end. May need to start at the drill press and see if I can get something dead on. Probably the first time firing up the router in two years.
> 
> - controlfreak


I tried a freehand test drill on a scrap and it is not possible to get a smooth bottom and the bit although the same size as the stop wallows out to be oversized. I got another piece and used the drill press to stay dead straight. I will add tape to the hole until is gets snug on the stop and use it for a template for my router.


----------



## Lazyman

You can buy some cut to size rubber pads designed for furniture feet to prevent them from moving. They are about 1/8" thick with peal off adhesive. We had a relatively heavy recliner that would slide every time you sat down. Pads on each foot and you almost have to pick it up now to move it. I got them at either HD or Lowe's 15+ years ago. They were in the same section as other furniture foot protectors.


----------



## theoldfart

A bag or two of sand will do the trick.
My workmate has one bag and I use it as a mitre box stand.


----------



## KentInOttawa

> You might try and weight up the bottom shelf, that should keep it in place.
> 
> - Eric





> I agree with Eric, Add some mass underneath and it will help a lot. Looks great!
> 
> - controlfreak





> A bag or two of sand will do the trick.
> My workmate has one bag and I use it as a mitre box stand.
> 
> - theoldfart


Agreed. For a while I was using an extra hundred board-feet or so of maple to weight mine down. It worked well.


----------



## Sylvain

> Finally I'd go back with my router and a template to make sure the counterbore was precisely the right diameter and depth and dead square to the top.
> 
> - HokieKen
> 
> Good idea but I will need to figure out how to make the template now, my troubles never end. May need to start at the drill press and see if I can get something dead on. Probably the first time firing up the router in two years.
> 
> - controlfreak


Don't over engineer this. 
Anyway, if the 1" hole for the shaft is perpendicular to the top, the head will automatically be parallel with the surface even if the bottom of the 2" hole for the head isn't.

I would do the 1" hole ( with the drill press or another drill guiding help [à la Paul Sellers]) and then carve the 2" hole like making an inlay. That would ensure the 2" hole fits the head. No risk about lack of concentricity.


----------



## controlfreak

> Don t over engineer this.
> Anyway, if the 1" hole for the shaft is perpendicular to the top, the head will automatically be parallel with the surface even if the bottom of the 2" hole for the head isn t.
> 
> I would do the 1" hole ( with the drill press or another drill guiding help [à la Paul Sellers]) and then carve the 2" hole like making an inlay. That would ensure the 2" hole fits the head. No risk about lack of concentricity.
> 
> - Sylvain


You Probably saved me Sylvain, in thinking about this now there is almost know way to get the 1" hole dead center of the two inch hole after the two inch is cut. I like the idea of drilling the 1" first and making the 2" fit around it. No way to bring the top to the drill press. I fear a forstner bit may wander a bit drilling. I wonder if I can get a 1" bit for the router and plunge that hole?

Like an inlay? I can flatten the bottom with router plane but the curved edge, how would you do that, carving chisel?


----------



## RaptorFuel

Thanks! I'm going to try the sandbag trick and it that's not enough I will look into those rubber pads.


----------



## Lazyman

> Good idea but I will need to figure out how to make the template now, my troubles never end. May need to start at the drill press and see if I can get something dead on. Probably the first time firing up the router in two years.
> 
> - controlfreak
> 
> I tried a freehand test drill on a scrap and it is not possible to get a smooth bottom and the bit although the same size as the stop wallows out to be oversized. I got another piece and used the drill press to stay dead straight. I will add tape to the hole until is gets snug on the stop and use it for a template for my router.
> 
> - controlfreak


I just Used a Forstner bit with a hand drill for the 2" inset and then a 1" Wood Owl using the center point from the 2" bit. It was just slightly tight, probably because I was off by a few thou with the wood owl so I used a chisel to clean up the tight spot to make it fit. I probably could have just reamed out the center hole with the 1" bit too.

EDIT to add: Smooth bottom is not critical as long as the center hole is vertical and when you set it in the rim sits below the benchtop. Once you screw it down, it won't move.


----------



## Lazyman

> Thanks! I'm going to try the sandbag trick and it that's not enough I will look into those rubber pads.
> 
> - RaptorFuel


Shelf space is too precious in my shop to waste it on storing sand. ;-)


----------



## EarlS

I did the same thing Nathan did. The center point from the larger former bit made a perfect starter hole for the 1" forstner bit.


----------



## Sylvain

> I wonder if I can get a 1" bit for the router and plunge that hole?
> 
> Like an inlay? I can flatten the bottom with router plane but the curved edge, how would you do that, carving chisel?
> 
> - controlfreak


I have no experience in drilling with an electric router. 
You could make a guide the same way Paul Sellers makes the stem hole in in a gauge head in the video "How to make marking gauges" 




or with your drill press…

Having a gouge would makes thing easier for the rim. Although, first approximating it with a flat chisel and then if needed refining with a knife might work.



> EDIT to add: Smooth bottom is not critical as long as the center hole is vertical …
> - Lazyman


That is what I expressed with other words


----------



## controlfreak

Looks like I am going to get the wood Owl bit and a guide. Still on the fence about starting with the 1" first and centering the 2" over it using the stop to transfer the markings for the router recess.


----------



## BlasterStumps

RaptorFuel, I just wanted to say great job on your bench/out feed table. Looks real nice and well done.


----------



## controlfreak

I don't know, I just want everything to be landing on a straight vertical and horizontal plane. Those three screws are going to need all the support they can get in pine. I definitely wasn't happy with the way it rocked with just a 2" forstner bit alone.


----------



## bandit571

Problem with going with the smaller bit first…no way to guide the larger one, to keep things centered..


----------



## BlasterStumps

When the closest overhead light fixture is slightly behind you when you are standing at your bench, you add another fixture right? I bought 6 fixtures in a lot from Amazon for the shop but only put up five until now. I put one up so it is above the middle of the bench. Now I can see. : )


----------



## theoldfart

One light over the bench as well as in front and one behind has worked well for me.


----------



## EricFai

I ended up installing (8) - 4' LED strip lights in my shop during the build, 3 along each side a 1 at each end about 7' from the end walls. I also painted the walls a light gray. Along with having 3 windows on each side. So far I have no complaints about the lighting.


----------



## DavePolaschek

I have an LED work-light on a cleat that I move from one side of the bench to the other depending in what I need, which seems to be a pretty good solution in addition to the windows over the bench, and the lights behind.


----------



## RaptorFuel

> RaptorFuel, I just wanted to say great job on your bench/out feed table. Looks real nice and well done.
> 
> - BlasterStumps


Thanks BlasterStumps, I appreciate it.

I threw some weights under the bench and it helps keep it from sliding but I'm going to look into some thin rubber pads.


----------



## Sylvain

> I don t know, I just want everything to be landing on a straight vertical and horizontal plane. Those three screws are going to need all the support they can get in pine. I definitely wasn t happy with the way it rocked with just a 2" forstner bit alone.
> 
> - controlfreak


I think the 1" stem takes the bulk of the pushing effort while planing. The 3 screws avoid rotation.

If you think it is important, you might put something under the head (candle soot?) and see where it makes contact. You could then pare the bottom of the hole to have contact everywhere.

If you have a plunge guide you can clamp to the workbench top, then the holes should be centered (if you can change the bit without de-clamping the guide). (assuming a good quality guide)


----------



## secharles

sorry i can't devote the time now to go through both threads But ….

has anyone built this style bench for general puttering:

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Farm_Woodwork/KpkBAAAAYAAJ?q=&gbpv=1#f=false

you have to go to page 19 to see it; i can't copy & paste.

thanks


----------



## Mosquito

I've seen a few of them out there, I can't remember who all here has made one. TerryR and TerryDowning maybe?

It's similar to an "English" workbench with a leg vise, and a slight variation is the "Nicholson" workbench, which is often seen with splayed legs


----------



## Mosquito

Since workbenches are often personalized and customized, these were the two I was thinking of, but not that exact bench (but similar spirit)

Terry R:


Terry Downing:

(Click for details)


----------



## secharles

> ...
> I ve seen a few of them ….


thank you And for getting the picture!


----------



## BurlyBob

I just got back form our trip about an hour ago. I stopped at a hardwood place on the way home and picked up a real nice piece of 8/4 black walnut for the leg vise and some wedges. I'm sure hoping I don't have to spend anymore money on this bench.


----------



## EricFai

Bob, you know you just jinxed yourself. Everything I say something like that, out comes the checkbook.


----------



## HokieKen

Don't worry Eric, I think Bob only said that because his wife was watching him type over his shoulder.


----------



## Mosquito

Don't worry Bob, you'll spend way more to use that bench than you have on making it in no time


----------



## EricFai

I don't tell mine how much I spend on materials and such. Safer that way.


----------



## EarlS

I'm spending as much $$ making a lathe stand as I did on the bench. Unfortunately, the lathe stand is a Rockler metal frame and some 1/2" plywood.

The 2 things I tell my wife when she asks about stuff in the shop:

Oh - that? I've had it for a long time.

How much did it cost? Not much.

I almost got caught one time when she asked what all of the cardboard boxes were that were in the recycling bin.


----------



## EricFai

Earl, you can always say "Oh that, I received that from one of my LJ's buddies".


----------



## HokieKen

My wife handles our budget and finances exclusively so it's pretty impossible to really slide anything past her. Which is fine because she's never told me "no." Well, not about money… I'm not a wasteful guy anyway so it's never been a source of conflict for us. As long as there's money when I decide I want to buy something and I don't ever have to deal with the tedium of budgeting and paying bills, I'm happy as a pig in s**t 

I will say thought Bob that in all seriousness, my only regrets about my bench build were pinching pennies on the vise hardware. I had a cheap-ish screw and made a pinned parallel guide for my leg vise and a chinesium vise for the end vise. After seeing how much I use my leg vise, I upgraded the screw to a Hovarter device and have no regrets about the expense. I have the x-link to go with it but it turns out retrofitting it will require a new chop. So a ton of work because I didn't just get the good stuff out of the gate. And eventually the end vise will get replaced. So I added a ton of work and spent more cash in the long run because I was trying to keep costs down initially. So don't give too much concern to what you've spent. In the end, you'll be glad you did. Buy once, cry once.


----------



## HokieKen

I should add that I have an ace in the hole with the wife right now. I haven't yet told her that Handworks is cancelled. So she has travel expenses, house rental, and spending money budgeted. So if I decide I need a big ticket item this summer, I can say "well, I really want it but I don't want to stress the budget so if I buy it, I'll skip the trip to Iowa in September." Now do I want to start looking at CNCs or laser cutters?


----------



## CL810

So true. I can't tell you how many times I've regretted my end vise decision (a quick release face vise.)



> ........ my only regrets about my bench build were pinching pennies on the vise hardware…....


----------



## Mosquito

My wife and I each have our own money to spend on hobbies. Everything goes to joint accounts, but we each kept an old personal account, and have automatic transfers each month to them and that's our "fun money". I don't have to ask, and she doesn't care lol


----------



## bigblockyeti

My wife and I each pretty much do whatever the heck we want and for the most part we're not wasteful. I have my vices revolving around various collections and at one point it was a minor contention. When we moved, I sold a bunch of stuff for waaaay more money than my wife was expecting (she assumed I was just buying random junk), since, nothing has been questioned. My biggest problem is I'm out of room and I want to build a metal (bug proof) barn at our property, that will represent a serious investment and now's not the best time. Since our Czar has promoted the implosion of the economy, our various accouts have been fleeced to the tune of a brand new M3 so figuring out how to make up that loss does not immediately include spending $30K for a 36' x 52' x 14' want.


----------



## Lazyman

Don't tell my wife but her retirement "hobby" is collecting vintage Christmas decorations and MCM furniture and when there is too much, selling the stuff she no longer wants to fund my hobbies-she bought my Hovarter vises for my birthday last year.  Of course I occasionally have to repair and refinish some furniture or repair some Christmas stuff but that is usually an okay diversion.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

I'm like Mos, we get a couple hundred bucks a month each as an "allowance" to spend on whatever dumb thing we want. She has her hobbies and so do I. It works. For bigger items we just discuss it and buy it from there. Haven't had any issues.

Bob, spend the money now. I'm all for "buy once cry once". It'll likely be with you for a lifetime.


----------



## Mosquito

That's our exact situation too Dave. Or things that are hobby related but not for the hobby. Like if I'm making something for the house, for example, the "house budget" (i.e. joint accounts) pay for the materials needed, etc. Working well still after 8 years.

And I know it's not for everyone, so I get it. It works well for us, because my hobbies are very incremental/constant streams of outgoing money (for the most part, it goes up and down month to month as I save/spend, etc), whereas hers are usually nothing for a while and then a lot all at once, or at least were when she'd travel with friends/family.

It's weird, I'm tight with money when it comes to non-hobby things, but that shop budget, I tell ya… I can blow through that like nothing lol


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Yep, house stuff comes from the "house" I don't pay for that out of my fun money account. It's also pretty nice when I have a bigger house project because it eats my shop time enough to where I don't spend my fun money for a few months or more sometimes. It adds up, kind of fun really.


----------



## Mosquito

haha exactly


----------



## rad457

Enjoy it while you can, the main thing I miss after taking the early retirement path is Overtime and bonus's, the last bonus almost paid for my retirement Truck, LOL, did get almost 6 years out of that one!
Seem's now I go the need or want path, and at the moment it appears the house needs to be repainted, interior and the bathrooms need some updating?


----------



## controlfreak

My wife has my work and personal email open and on screen all day long. Most of my tool needs are complete for now but when I was ordering or bidding on tools I would get a big WTF! from her office across the hall. I can't hide anything.


----------



## Peteybadboy

My dawg will buy me a tool I "need" usually for Christmas or my Birthday.










My shop lights


----------



## duckmilk

I like those lights a lot.


----------



## BurlyBob

I haven't done much work done on 'Bruiser' in almost 2 weeks. Tomorrow I have to get back at it. What to do next is the question. I might need some advice. I'll check back in with you all.


----------



## BlasterStumps

Very nice shop Petey. I like the lighting.


----------



## rad457

Another shop that's just too clean Wife decides the house was due for a paint job inside, she hired the Favorite SIL to do most of it but I ended up doing the ensuite and of course new toilet and mirrors were required. Wonder who's thought that vaulted ceilings in a bathroom was a good idea?


----------



## sepeck

> My wife and I each have our own money to spend on hobbies. Everything goes to joint accounts, but we each kept an old personal account, and have automatic transfers each month to them and that s our "fun money". I don t have to ask, and she doesn t care lol
> 
> - Mosquito


This is the way to go. We do this too. It's more, household expenses, then we each get a 'salary' that's our own.


----------



## TEK73

> My wife and I each have our own money to spend on hobbies. Everything goes to joint accounts, but we each kept an old personal account, and have automatic transfers each month to them and that s our "fun money". I don t have to ask, and she doesn t care lol
> 
> - Mosquito
> 
> This is the way to go. We do this too. It s more, household expenses, then we each get a salary that s our own.
> 
> - sepeck


We receive our pay to our own accounts and then transfer to a shared account that is used for all common costs, like house, cars, food, insurence and everything else we need in our life.
The rest is our own money that we use as we please. For example on woodworking machines (on my part), gifts, hobbies and so on.
We never ask each other for premission or to explain ourself.

Going on for +20 marriged years, 26 total - so it seems to work for us.


----------



## BurlyBob

This is practice joint #8. I'm going to call it a total success and get ready to move on to the next step if I can figure out what that is. I cut the bevel at 5 degrees on the bench top and the wedges. I also cut the tenon at an angle from 3/4" in to around 1/8" at the bottom. These had not split like the straight cuts. I started the bevel at 1/2" from the bottom up. I'm satisfied as I've got real good contact on both side of the tenon.



















Pretty sure I'm going to assemble the legs with all the tenons cut to specs. I guess after that I figure out placement
in the bench top.

The adventure continues.


----------



## EricFai

Bob, that is looking good.

I'm back to work on my Moxon Bench. Good weekend. Sliding dovetails for apron to leg, and mortise into rear chop. Need to mortise for leg attachment.

Underside


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Looking good Eric. Far more sturdy than what mine is. Mine isn't a bench really, even if it has a top like yours. It's just for dovetails. That thing looks like it can take a decent beating if need be.


----------



## EricFai

Thanks Dave, it should be sturdy enough. The top is 1-1/2" thick, and the chops are just under 2" I wanted the dog holes and decided to leave some room to attach a clamp at the edge if need be.

Hey this is practice for a bigger bench build down the road.


----------



## EarlS

Bob - that looks solid. Looking at the picture, I'm reminded of the "Impossible mallet" that is attributed to Roy Underhill, among others. It has some unique dovetails.










Meanwhile, my weekend shop time was spent staining and finishing plywood drawer boxes and putting masonite on the sides of the lathe stand. Not nearly as fun or interesting. I'll be putting lipstick on the pig by using Butternut for drawer fronts. If things go well, I hope to turn something over Memorial Day weekend. Still need to watch some Youtube videos to make sure I get the basics.


----------



## BurlyBob

EarlS, I'm going to PM you later for some advice later.


----------



## HokieKen

That looks rock solid Bob. Good luck on getting the real ones cut now 

Moxon is looking real good too Eric!


----------



## BurlyBob

I've got to rebuild my drill press table before I start anything else. It's got a very annoying bow in it and things won't lay flat. I'm thinking the 3/4 plywood on the bottom bowed on me. I may have to pickup a piece of 3/4 birch this time and laminate it with Melamine.


----------



## EarlS

Bob - I still need to build a drill press table for the Nova Viking. I have a couple plans from Woodsmith that I'm hoping to meld together into something that will provide a way to hook the DC hose to the fence and also move the tightening handle and up/down handle out beyond the side of the table. The tilt handle may be a bit more challenging. I have some melamine and I'll glue 2 pieces of 3/4 baltic birch together to get a flat, stable work surface.


----------



## EricFai

Thank Kenny, almost to the point I can start gluing up the rest of it. All the tenons cut and mortise fit together, which some were sliding dovetails.


----------



## BurlyBob

I'm needing some help. How long to I make the slot for the tail vise using bench crafted hardware? I need to allow for a piece of material from the end of the slot to the opening for the thru wedged tenon. I'm thinking I want a 3" piece.
It's going to have that bevel and should be around 4" at the bottom. I do that and secure it with dowels. That sound reasonable to you all.


----------



## BurlyBob

I've decided to tackle the legs today and see where I go from there. I've got to figure out how I'm going to get this thing flat and even from side to side, end to end.


----------



## HokieKen

Bob I don't own or have any experience with the BC hardware so I can't help with your question. And I'm notbsure exactly what you're asking anyway ;-) Good luck with the legs today!


----------



## BurlyBob

Kenny thanks anyway. I've pretty well got some thing figured out. I just need to bounce ideas off folks and no one around here has any idea what I'm doing. They come in look at 'Bruiser', then the plans and walk away shaking their heads.

I got the last 6 bench top pieces and leg pieces jointed with one flat side. Next I get to run them thru the planer and get them all uniform. I've got to get that done before 2pm Doctors appointment. Blood draw for A1C. It's not going to be good.


----------



## Lazyman

Bob, are you talking about the wagon vise? Earl is probably the most recent one to use the the Benchcrafted hardware so he may be the best one to answer your questions.

On my bench, using Hovarter wagon vise kit, I left 2" between the mortise and the slot for the wagon vise.


----------



## EarlS

Bob - I will check when I get home and see if I can get you some pictures too.

As far as flattening - I used a router sled. Still have the bit if you decide to go that way. Let me know and I can get it in the mail to you.


----------



## controlfreak

> I ve decided to tackle the legs today and see where I go from there. I ve got to figure out how I m going to get this thing flat and even from side to side, end to end.
> 
> - BurlyBob


By the time I started the glue up I realized that there was no way I was going to get that mass to run through the DW735 planer without disaster striking, and my top is smaller than yours. I bought the large flattening bit for my router and before making the router sled I squinted my eyes and thought I would take a few passes with my Stanley No. 5. Glad I did, top is flat and I found out I like hand planes.


----------



## BurlyBob

I got all the legs and last 6 bench top pieces dimensioned to the same thickness. Tomorrow I work on assembling the legs. That will probably take up most of the day.

The router sled idea I've been holding off thinking my friends wide belt sander might work. I'm thinking these bench tops might be to heavy for the conveyer belt. I've got a pretty good handle on the tail vise slot spacing. Now the question is, can I make it all come together the way it's suppose to? Baby steps, right?


----------



## EarlS

Bob - here are some pictures. The mistake I made was moving the open slot back without moving the screw back. As a result, the screw intrudes into the slot opening so I had to scalp the edge of the dog block so it didn't rub on the screw. The slot is about 1/2" longer than the screw.

I did run the front and back thru my DW735 - 12" wide x 4-1/4" in thick white oak sections. It worked well enough but there was a lot of pucker factor. I still had to use the router sled to flatten the final top after it was glued up so I'm not sure running it thru the planer did much good.


----------



## EricFai

Bob, sound like your doing good on your bench.

I managed to finish up my markers mark on the Moxon front chop, and chucked up a piece of Ash to make some dog pins. Need a little work yet for good fit, but roughed out.


----------



## BurlyBob

Earl Thanks for those photos. I see a lot of things better than the drawings that come with the vise. I see your end cap is larger than mine. That make a difference to some degree. Those photos are really great. Thanks.


----------



## TEK73

I planed my split top Roubo tops on my small bench planer. A LOT of support in front and back, but it did work (but I'm happy to have a larger planer now


----------



## EarlS

Bob let me know if you need more pictures or dimensions.


----------



## Mosquito

I've seen people that let their small lunchbox bench planer self-feed on large slabs like bench tops… prop it up, get it started, move the middle prop to the starting end, move the ending prop to the middle, catch and turn off the planer at the end lol

Seems kinda sketchy to me, but I also don't have a lunchbox planer


----------



## BurlyBob

I've got a 12" planer but the bench top is to wide for it. I'm going to check with my friend about his wide belt sander.
I'm pretty certain this bench top will be to heavy for the conveyor belt. Sooo, I'm left with a router sled or breaking out my #8's & 7's and getting a good workout.


----------



## Lazyman

I originally planned to run my bench top through the planer in sections but decided I didn't want to try and manhandle them through the planer only to have to plane it again after final glue up. Making mine from SYP, certainly paid off in the planing department. It was a joy to flatten with hand planes. My biggest issue was making myself stop.


----------



## Mosquito

haha "I swear I was making a 3" top… why is it only measuring in at 1-1/8"?"

I built my bench in my apartment shop, so I didn't have any big power tools yet (just drills, circular saw, and a router). Mine was red oak, and only about 52" long and 12" wide, so it wasn't a big deal to flatten by hand (and it's not like I'm going to run the whole bench plus tool tray through the planer/sander after I build it anyway)


----------



## controlfreak

Mine was a tad to thick (holdfast troubles) but after flattening it was probably at the max. As I keep gashing it at the vise chop when sawing boards I may need to re-flatten at some point. I forgot to take pictures but the the plane stop went in perfectly, still getting use to it. I think I need to add some more dog holes for some lateral supports.


----------



## Lazyman

> ... Sooo, I m left with a router sled or breaking out my #8 s & 7 s and getting a good workout.
> 
> - BurlyBob


Bob, It will be a lot less work using a #5 and 4 to do the bulk of the work. You can obviously use a scrub plane, if you have one. If you try to use longer planes, you spend most of your time just skating over the tops of high points. Some prefer to use a #4 but I like using my #5 as a scrub diagonally to quickly do most of the leveling and remove any twist. Working diagonally allows you to hog off the most amount with the least resistance. Once it was mostly flat, I then switched to planing lengthwise with the #5 to get a nice surface. I did use my #7 a little but that was mostly because it is my best tuned plane and gets onion paper like shavings (and it is just fun to use). When I was done, no sanding was needed. Paul Sellers and Wood by Wright have good YouTube videos of the process of flattening a bench top.


----------



## BurlyBob

Nathan, by the time I get done I bet I will have put all my planes to work on 'Brusier'. Well except for my #1.


----------



## drsurfrat

+1 w Nathan. A scrub and a No 5 worked faster than I expected. I hold the scrub a full 90 degrees to the grain and push at 45. It peels the wood instead of fighting it the full width of the blade.


----------



## Notw

I was able to find a reasonable Stanley No. 203 bench clamp on eBay, does anyone have the information on the size hole it needs in the deadman or the thickness of the deadman etc? Thank you


----------



## duckmilk

TOF, Smitty and some others can Help you out Notw.

WOW what an amazing dovetail joint.


----------



## theoldfart

3/4" to 7/8"depth by 1" diameter.


----------



## TopamaxSurvivor

> TOF, Smitty and some others can Help you out Notw.
> 
> WOW what an amazing dovetail joint.
> 
> - duckmilk


I love how that impossible joint works )


----------



## Lazyman

> 3/4" to 7/8"depth by 1" diameter.
> 
> - theoldfart


On mine, 7/8" would be too thick and make it too tight so I would shoot for 13/16 deep. My deadman is more than 13/16" thick so I cut a 2" counterbore on the back, leaving about 13/16" of thickness, to give enough room for the hook.


----------



## EricFai

Very impressive joinery. The Japanese do some wonderful woodwork and the joinery they use us amazing.


----------



## TopamaxSurvivor

Sorry wrong thread ;((


----------



## EricFai

One bench completed. Now I can start thinking about a big bench.


----------



## Mosquito

Very nice Eric! I want me one of those some day


----------



## EricFai

Thanks Mos, so far it has been a nice addition, and I am sure it will get much use.


----------



## TEK73

> One bench completed. Now I can start thinking about a big bench.
> 
> 
> 
> - Eric


Very nice, love your makers mark!


----------



## EricFai

Tek73, thanks. Now I need a branding iron.


----------



## HokieKen

> Tek73, thanks. Now I need a branding iron.
> 
> - Eric


That looks like a branding iron I could make if you're interested Eric.


----------



## EricFai

Kenny, I may have to take you up on that offer. I have seen some made with Brass rod which was etched out. The rod was then threaded to a wooden handle. Used a little torch to heat up. I would think one about 1" diameter.


----------



## BurlyBob

Eric in a short while your going to be amazed how much you needed that Moxon vise when you didn't have it till you got it.


----------



## BurlyBob

This is 'Bruiser', all put together for now. It measures out at 49 5/8" by 82". The tool well is 7" and so far just working around on 'Bruiser' I really like that tool well. I must be the odd man out.



















At the moment I'm struggling with placement of the legs in relationship to the tail vise. It'll come to me in the next few days.


----------



## duckmilk

Looks great Bob. With the width and length of that bench, a tool well makes more sense, so, odd man in in my opinion )
Also with the length of your bench, I don't think placement of the legs to accommodate the tail vise is going to be much of a problem.


----------



## EricFai

Bob, I have been wondering about having g a good vise in the shop. It has already been in use.

Brusier is looking good, that is one hefty top. You will like having a larger surface for assembly task. Your not the odd man out with the tool well, it's a long reach across that width.


----------



## DavePolaschek

Looks to me like two benches, connected by a tool well. Wouldn't make any sense against a wall, but in the middle of the room….


----------



## TEK73

> Tek73, thanks. Now I need a branding iron.
> 
> - Eric
> 
> That looks like a branding iron I could make if you're interested Eric.
> 
> - HokieKen


How do you go about to make one of this size?


----------



## EarlS

Bob - Originally, the side of the leg was at the end of the tail vise slot. However, since the end of the tail vise screw is about 4-1/2" from the side of the leg I added a 4" block to fill the slot after I realized I didn't need the extra slot length. IIRC the extra space beyond the screw allowed the dog block carriage to travel all the way to the end of the screw.

You might consider putting a bench dog in the space between the leg and the end of the slot if you have room rather than having to hollow out the leg face and top of the leg tenon to accommodate one in the leg.

Alternatively, if the vise slot is just a bit longer than the screw, it can be set so the slot stops at the edge of the leg and the first dog hole would be on the other side of the leg. Had I realized this, I would have moved the leg 4" closer to the end of the top. That is one problem with building the base first. The vise dictates the leg mortise placement in the top but the base is build before the vise is laid out on the top.


----------



## HokieKen

> Tek73, thanks. Now I need a branding iron.
> 
> - Eric
> 
> That looks like a branding iron I could make if you're interested Eric.
> 
> - HokieKen
> 
> How do you go about to make one of this size?
> 
> - TEK73


I could mill it using my rotary table on my milling machine.


----------



## BurlyBob

Earl, thanks you telling pretty much what I've decided to do. The bench crafted plans show running the rails into the end cap. I think I'll end the rail at the edge of the end cap and put a 3 1/2" block at the other end of the rail. I'm going to do round holes for bench dogs as they seem quicker and easier. I might make that slot for the tail vise about 1/2" longer than the screw.

All that starts tomorrow, I think. who knows what wrench is going to get thrown into the mix.

Earl, something I forgot to ask you. How thick is your end cap. I've got a piece of 12/4 that's going to end up around 2 7/8"-2 3/4" after I get done cleaning it up.


----------



## controlfreak

I was in the Woodwrights shop this weekend for a class. Late Saturday or early Sunday 10 slabs of red oak appeared next to my bench. They looked fantastic! Will Myers must have dropped them off for a upcoming class. Sure wish I could have met him.


----------



## EarlS

Bob - end cap is 3" wide and 4" thick (benchtop thickness). I actually laminated 3 pieces (4/4, 8/4, 4/4) together horizontally to get the enough thickness.

I think round dog holes are the better choice. At some point, I may pull out the square dogs and fill the holes and drill out round ones.


----------



## BurlyBob

Thanks for the info Earl. I'm thinking I'll stop the tail vise rails at the edge of the end cap and start the block for the leg mortise at the front of the rail. Hopefully that will keep things similar with less work.


----------



## BurlyBob

Getting a little closer. Only 3/32" difference between the 2 sides. Good enough to get on with the legs and the joints.
I'll probably rig up a router sled down the road to really flatten this out.


----------



## HokieKen

Make the legs 3/32 shorter on one side Bob. I've got about 1/4" difference in the thickness of the front and back slabs on my bench. Never been a problem.


----------



## Sylvain

I have flattened the top and bottom of two workbench-tops but I don't know if the two faces are parallel. In other words I don't know if the thickness is the same everywhere.
It doesn't affect the functionality of the workbenches.
I don't know if the workbench-top is perfectly horizontal. I don't rely on this.
I often saw a piece placed askew in the vise as Paul Sellers does.

The workbench must not be rocking. What is probably important is that there is no winding on the underside of the Workbench-top, at the places where it sits on the base; otherwise the top might distort the base (depending on the design). Although a well placed shim between top and base might cure the problem.


----------



## BurlyBob

I sharpened the plane irons I wore down the other day. Thursday I'm going to finish that bench top.


----------



## MikeJ70

Bob,

It looks like you are making great progress. It's been awhile since I posted on here. Life suddenly got really busy and I just haven't had the time. I have been working hard in the shop though trying to figure out how to do the hounds tooth dovetails to connect the last laminate to the end cap. To make a long story short, after a lot of practice and frustration I think I finally got it. Here's a few pics of my latest practice piece:



















I almost gave up and was going to just do standard dovetails using William Ng's method, but I am glad I stayed with it. I made a little mistake while paring so you can see a gap on the top tail, but other than that, I am really happy with the results. A few more practice runs and then it is time to do it for real. I am putting end caps on both ends so that means dovetails on both ends (I am second guessing that decision now) and on both sides so 4 dovetails total.


----------



## theoldfart

"think I finally got it."

Congratulations, you've won the Understatement of the Year Award!

Beautiful work.


----------



## BurlyBob

Dang Mike, those are exceptional. I'm several weeks away from starting dovetails. I work extra slow and there always seems to be something interrupting me. But like you I'm determined to finish what and how I started this bench, The thru leg mortise and dovetailed end caps. All it takes is time and practice.


----------



## EricFai

Mike, those look great. Can't wait to see the finished bench.


----------



## BurlyBob

Here's proof that I work real slow. This is all I've gotten done in the last weeks. Tomorrow is another lost day. Have to attend to some other issues. I'm hoping Tuesday to make some progress on the legs.


----------



## EricFai

Looks good Bob.


----------



## bandit571

Hmmm.."Nuttin' fancy"










cleanest it has been in a week….or three….


----------



## BurlyBob

Yeah, it's coming along.


----------



## revrok

Bandit, you always inspire me and comfort me… My bench is always a mess. I just cleaned it last week and it's a disaster!



> Hmmm.."Nuttin fancy"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cleanest it has been in a week….or three….
> 
> - bandit571


----------



## EarlS

Those are some fine looking houndstooth dovetails!!!

Bob - I have the same problem, but slow and steady will get it done in the long run. Nice brass dogs.

Looks like Bandit is finally coming over to the dark side. Heh heh heh


----------



## BurlyBob

I got the piece glued on next to the dog hole strip and biscuit slots into all the leg sections. Tomorrow I start gluing the legs together.

I got those brass dogs from Taylor tools. So far I've been very pleased with everything I've bought from them. Their prices and shipping have been very reasonable.


----------



## EricFai

Bob, sounds like your moving right along. I have been using Taylor Tools also, agree they seem to be reasonable.


----------



## HokieKen

With the price of brass bar stock these days, I might need to but some of thosr dogs to use for turning…


----------



## EricFai

Yea, the brass stock is high.


----------



## Mosquito

My experience with Taylor Tools has been mixed, but mostly good enough. Their line of their own stuff I generally treat with the same trepidation as any of the other knockoff brands. Not always a bad thing, but generally keep my expectations low


----------



## HokieKen

Only things I've bought from Taylor Tools is cosmetic seconds PEC squares and rules. I never even think to look at them when I need other stuff. I'll have to try to remember to give em a shot next time I need some mid-tier tools.


----------



## KentInOttawa

I can't speak to the majority of their line, but I have had good results with their marking tool kits (marking knives and wheel marking gauge kits).


----------



## Mosquito

I nearly bought their titemark clone marking gauge too, but ultimately decided I'd support Glen-Drake and buy an actual Titemark instead (or two). Not sure if it was money well spent or not, as I've never used a Tay Tools version, but I do like to support made in USA products and manufacturers when I can.

Truthfully I've never bought directly from Taylor Tools, I've only ever bought from them through their Amazon store. Prices on what I was buying was the same, and I didn't have to mess with signing up for yet another site lol


----------



## BurlyBob

Hoping to get some legs glued up today and figure out how to cover up a screw up.


----------



## BlasterStumps

"and figure out how to cover up a screw up."

A big tarp has always worked for me. : )

I bet whatever you are calling a "screw up" would barely be noticeable if at all. All the best with the bench legs. 
Mike


----------



## Mosquito

Easiest way to cover up a screw up by a woodworker is to not point it out lol


----------



## HokieKen

I've never screwed up but I hope to experience the feeling one day.


----------



## duckmilk

> I ve never screwed up but I hope to experience the feeling one day.
> 
> - HokieKen


I have no reason to doubt you Kenny, seriously. But I can't help but wonder what your wife would have to say about that statement ;-P


----------



## MikeB_UK

> I ve never screwed up but I hope to experience the feeling one day.
> 
> - HokieKen


Quite a claim from the inventor of the sliding dumbass 

I, if course, am infullible.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

> I ve never screwed up but I hope to experience the feeling one day.
> 
> - HokieKen
> 
> Quite a claim from the inventor of the sliding dumbass
> 
> I, if course, am infullible.
> 
> - MikeB_UK


BAHAHAHAHAA!


----------



## BurlyBob

In your dreams, Hokie.

I did get the legs glued up and I've figured out how to coverup my screw up. I'll post a photo of it tomorrow. I had to mow the lawn today amongst all the other stuff and I'm beat. That's why I'm re-hydrating with malted barley and hops at the moment.

Hey, I also posted an idea on Moke's workshop page that many might what to put on the Father's Day gift list, a Kegerator. Definitely a present that will be truly appreciated and very well used!


----------



## Mosquito

After 10 years of staring at the bench the way it was… This looks weird lol


----------



## EarlS

I always thought a project wasn't complete until there were at least a couple screw ups. I find that I can hide them by making them look ornamental. Keep that in mind when looking at any of my project posts.

Got some good news last night. I get to work in the shop ALL DAY on Saturday since SWMBO is working. I've bumbled household chores enough and spent way too much money when buying groceries for her to feel comfortable letting me do anything like that on my own. It's taken years to get to this point , but my "ineptitude" is finally paying off.

There might even be an opportunity to doe some more beer research this weekend with Sunday being Father's Day. I'll get to spend most Sunday in the shop as my Father's Day "gift".

This weekend is shaping up to be a good one. Might even get some swap work done.


----------



## HokieKen

I get to spend all day Saturday working on a treehouse. But I have a fridge full of dead cow, chicken and shrimp and I get to fire up the egg Sunday


----------



## BurlyBob

I got the legs out of the clamps and cleaned up. Tomorrow it's cut 45 degree bevels on the leg and I'm hoping to get the leg positions on the back section.


----------



## BurlyBob

Here's the last few screw up. You should have heard me cuss my self out for that first one.









This is my idea for try to cover it up. I'm interested to see how it looks in the morning.








This is what it was suppose to look like.








These last two I'm pretty sure I can cover up with the end cap.


















Tomorrow I'll clean up the beveled edges and figure out their proper orientation.


----------



## EricFai

Bob, that stinks, but it looks like you have a solution, well done.


----------



## BurlyBob

Yup, it does stink, but it was all my fault. I wasn't paying attention to the stop line.


----------



## EricFai

And that's a red line…..


----------



## BurlyBob

Yup, red for stop. And I blew right past it!


----------



## TopamaxSurvivor

> Yup, red for stop. And I blew right past it!
> 
> - BurlyBob


Do you blast through red lights too? ))))


----------



## EricFai

Funny Topa, I was thinking the same thing, just didn't say it.


----------



## TopamaxSurvivor

> Funny Topa, I was thinking the same thing, just didn t say it.
> 
> - Eric


My facetious side takes over too much


----------



## Lazyman

Oh man I hate when that happens. I am almost guaranteed to mess up the first stopped cut on a table saw. I always seem to forget that bottom of the blade is further forward than the top. That is why almost always us a bandsaw for cuts like that.


----------



## EarlS

The worst part of making a mistake like that is that you realize you made it within a second or two after it is too late.

I was cutting a simple tapered edge for a tray. I oriented the pieces correctly, made sure the blade was tilted to the proper angle, set the fence to the proper distance from the blade, turned on the DS, turned on the saw, flipped the piece over and ran it thru. I realized I shouldn't have flipped the piece over just after the blade touched the wood.


----------



## EricFai

Think we all have done that before, I have.


----------



## rad457

Mistake? what is this thing you call a Mistake? Perhaps some thing like the Creative Design change I have perfected


----------



## MikeJ70

Well that sucks Bob. I feel your pain. Just wondering if you could setup a stop block to keep you from blowing past your stop line?

I appreciate the kind comments on my practice dovetails. I am going to practice one more time and then do it for keeps. With the coming heatwave it probably won't happen until next weekend.

I am looking for recommendations for a bench top light. I am considering this one from Lee Valley https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/home/lighting/worklights/76037-led-magnifying-bench-lamp?item=17J3030 .
Dose anyone have this one or a different one that you are happy with?


----------



## BurlyBob

Mike I'm looking for one of those as well. I've seen several on Amazon for around $60. My bench is a far piece from needing one of them.


----------



## BurlyBob

Here's the cleaned up slot repair. Not great but it'll have to do for now. I might dig out that glue a little, dab more glue and saw dust in it to hide it better.









This is my idea of how to trim most of the saw kerf. I wasn't to confident in my chisel paring skils.









It's not perfect but I think it'll work.


----------



## RaptorFuel

I installed an end vise and now I'm working up the courage to poke holes in the top. Especially after what happened to the apron.


----------



## EricFai

Great job on the repair there Bob, if I understand your build, that will be on the underside of the top. So it should not be visible, you'll know it's there.

Raptor, that bench is looking good.


----------



## CaptainKlutz

> ...looking for recommendations for a bench top light. I am considering this one from Lee Valley - MikeJ70


I use the older fluorescent bulb version of the LV light. It has been decent magnifying light.
The table clamp barely has enough space for most tables. Works fine on solid core door bench, but is unusable for thicker work bench top. 
LV sell bushings that fit into 3/4 or 20mm bench dog holes. The 3/4" bushing was little smaller than my 3/4 router bit I used to plunge in holes on work bench, so mine needed a couple wraps of tape to snug the fit. The bushing mount is super convenient, as you can move or remove as needed.

Over time the magnifying lens cover plastic hinge became loose, and if the light is tilted too far forward; it won't stay in up position. But at same time, when the head is tilted far enough the lid drops, the focus range is more narrow and less practical to use?

TBH - Once I added proper overhead work shop led lighting; I rarely used the work light at the work bench. Now it spends most of it's time at my grinding/sharpening station, or in the table clamp at my indoor work bench; helping my old eyes see small things.

YMMV


----------



## MikeJ70

Bob, your repair looks great. Just wondering if you have a bandsaw and if you tried using that instead of your table saw? That would save you from having to clean up the cut.

Raptor, your bench looks great. I like the fact it is pulling double duty and is your out feed table. I'm not sure what happened on your apron so I'll have to look back and find the post on it. I drilled mine on my drill press before I glued it up. I wasn't able to get all of the way through so I finished up with a hand held drill.


----------



## rad457

I have a few of these around the shop(shaper, bandsaw) and on one end of the Bench along with the Old style L.V. Magnifier.
https://www.ikea.com/ca/en/p/tertial-work-lamp-light-blue-70504295/


----------



## bandit571

Work bench was busy…









Running the Cordless Jointer..


----------



## RaptorFuel

Mike,

The mistake happened after my last post. You can see it in the photo; one of these things is not like the others. Now, time to start drillin'.


----------



## BurlyBob

Yeah Mike, I've got a band saw and I finished the cut there. The Table saw was easier to set and use as these legs are quite heavy. My problem was I just did not pay attention to the stop lines I had planned to use. I got distracted by the cut at the top of the blade. My Bad!

I did manage to get the bevels cleaned up today to my satisfaction. I had to stop half way into things and sharpened my chisels. I realized I've got to spend quite a bit more time flattening the backs of my chisels. I just might take the next couple of days doing that.


----------



## MikeJ70

Andre, the price is right on those, I just don't know if I can get myself to buy anything from IKEA. I found one similar to the Lee Valley one on Amazon. It's a little cheaper and has a 5x magnifier which I think would be helpful for certain tasks.



> I realized I ve got to spend quite a bit more time flattening the backs of my chisels. I just might take the next couple of days doing that.
> 
> - BurlyBob


Same here. I'd like to invest in a higher end set like the Blue Spruce Optima, but I just can't afford it right now. I have the original Marples Blue Chips and they have treated me well, but a couple of them need some work on the back so I can get a better edge on them. It's going to be too hot to work out in the shop tomorrow so I think I'll bring my sharpening stuff into the house and work on them at the dining room table.


----------



## MikeJ70

> ...looking for recommendations for a bench top light. I am considering this one from Lee Valley - MikeJ70 I use the older fluorescent bulb version of the LV light. It has been decent magnifying light.
> The table clamp barely has enough space for most tables. Works fine on solid core door bench, but is unusable for thicker work bench top.
> LV sell bushings that fit into 3/4 or 20mm bench dog holes. The 3/4" bushing was little smaller than my 3/4 router bit I used to plunge in holes on work bench, so mine needed a couple wraps of tape to snug the fit. The bushing mount is super convenient, as you can move or remove as needed.
> 
> Over time the magnifying lens cover plastic hinge became loose, and if the light is tilted too far forward; it won t stay in up position. But at same time, when the head is tilted far enough the lid drops, the focus range is more narrow and less practical to use?
> 
> TBH - Once I added proper overhead work shop led lighting; I rarely used the work light at the work bench. Now it spends most of it s time at my grinding/sharpening station, or in the table clamp at my indoor work bench; helping my old eyes see small things.
> 
> YMMV
> 
> - CaptainKlutz


CaptainKlutz, you bring up some good points. I've been working off of my new bench half assembled which is setup where I normally park my truck so I don't have the best lighting there. I have been thinking about adding some so I think I'll look at that before I buy a bench mounted light. I was on the fence on if I wanted a magnifying glass or not. I've heard others say those lids can become a pain


----------



## BurlyBob

Mike check out Jamestown distributors. They got a set of 6 Two cherries for around $175. I got them a few years back and I can tell you they are far better than those Marples/irwins. I was calling them my 'Go to Sunday' Chisels. But after working with them on this beech. They have become my go to chisels. If I do my sharpening job well they can stand up to anything. The Marples' I got to sharpen them every half hour. I bought them because I thought that Sheffield steel was some of the best in the world. Boy was I ever wrong. My Two Cherries will work a full day+.

I watched a Tom Cosman video about flattening the back of a chisel and I've become a believer. So I've 10-14 hours of chisel work scheduled for the next few days.

I use quartz countertop and wet/dry sandpaper up to 3000 grit. I can get a really good edge if I don't get to critical about the back. After the last couple of days… I'm getting seriously critical about the backs of my chisels. So for the next couple of days I'm going to put some love and care into my chisels.


----------



## CaptainKlutz

> I was on the fence on if I wanted a magnifying glass or not. I've heard others say those lids can become a pain -MikeJ


IMHO - would not have a magnify lens work light in shop WITHOUT a lid/cover, regardless of the use challenges. 
Had an old drafting bench magnifying light in my shop for years, and the glass became too scratched to use. I never know if the dust on lens is; wood, metal, or fiberglass; and have very careful cleaning the lens. With cover, rarely need to clean the glass; and it reminds you NOT to use your grimy hands or rag to wipe off lens.


----------



## ac0rn

I use a soft cotton cloth to cover the magnifying glass, not to keep it clean, but as it sits next to an east window I wouldn't like to start a fire.


----------



## KentInOttawa

> I am looking for recommendations for a bench top light. I am considering this one from Lee Valley https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/home/lighting/worklights/76037-led-magnifying-bench-lamp?item=17J3030 .
> Dose anyone have this one or a different one that you are happy with?
> 
> - MikeJ70


I'm a bit late to this party, but…

I do have an older desktop model with a fluorescent bulb that came from Ikea, so the light is a bit too blue for me. It only has a clamp base, but I prefer that anyway. The gooseneck feels short but it's at a really good height for the magnifier. The 5X strength is quite convenient sometimes, and the flip-down dust cover is a brilliant idea.










I didn't want to do the same thing for workbench lighting, so I had my shop painted white and put in a *LOT* of daylight LEDs when my shop was built. Here's a shot from this morning, with the gooseneck Ikea lamp by the left-hand window. It is still turned on. FWIW, the LEDs are on a dimmer and reduced to about 80% here and most of the time.










I still use the Ikea lamp on the bench, albeit rarely and mostly for the magnifier. In most cases I still prefer to use this magnifier set from Amazon for the magnification, but the light is too dim, too tight a beam and never pointed where it is needed; if you move your head to get the magnifiers focused then the light is wrong, and if you move your head to fix the light then the magnifiers are wrong. Doh!


----------



## bandit571

Bench is still busy..









Jointed 6 edges, and then a glue up….


----------



## MikeJ70

Bob, my local Rockler carries the 2 Cherries but I ultimately decided to go Lie-Nielsen. For Fathers Day my wife told me to pick something out for around $200 so I ordered a Knew Concepts fret saw and 3/8" LN chisel. I decided I'll replace my Blue Chips one by one over time until I have a complete set. I figure my time at $50/hr so the time the LN will save me from flattening the back is worth the cost to me.


----------



## BurlyBob

My chisel flattening did go as well as I had hoped. I'm looking for a course diamond plate. Can anyone point me in the right direction? I've been doing a little looking but nothing jumps out and says I'm the best.


----------



## HokieKen

Great job on the overcut fix Bob! I have DMT plates and can recommend them. You can buy them in large sizes (up to 10×4 I think) with a continuous diamond coat rather than with the perforated metal inlaid. I have 4 of them and they are all extremely flat and have been since the day I got them. The coarse is starting to show some wear now but it's seen a lot of use over the last 7 or 8 years so it's earned its keep. They also make an Extra Coarse that might be better a better option if you expect to have a lot of plane blades and chisels to flatten.


----------



## HokieKen

I have a magnifying lamp as well but I don't use the magnifier anymore. It's still a handy light and lives on my Worksharp station these days. When I need magnification (which is fairly often and getting more often by the year it seems) I've found that I much prefer the visor kind like in Kent's last picture. I have two different pair and the one like Kent's is the one I use most often. The nose rests are made so it sits easily behind my glasses and the lens flips up and down easily with no need to fiddle. I share Kent's feelings about the light though. It's a pain to get adjusted just right. I normally don't use the light and just use the visor with a bright gooseneck task lamp.

The other style= I have is less comfortable and convenient for me but having a light on each side instead of one in the center does work much better if the light is a must-have for you.


----------



## BurlyBob

Thanks Ken. I'll check into those. I haven't been able to get motivated today for some reason.


----------



## MikeB_UK

I went for the cheapo 4 for 20 bucks ones middle of last year, no issues yet - and cheap enough to get them as a trial for better plates.
I only got them to see how well they worked, been using them since.


----------



## MikeJ70

Well, I started last night on the houndstooth dovetails for the front laminate-to-end cap joint. Now that I am working with a 7+ foot long board I've had to redo some of my setups to accommodate, but I was able to get the tails cut on one end of the back laminate. I'm still trying to determine the best approach to getting both ends marked accurately and transferred to both pin boards so hopefully I don't turn the first one into firewood. I am going to try and document my process as I go and do a blog entry about it so stay tuned if you are interested in my process.

One thing I have been pondering is the glue up. The joints on my test pieces have been so tight that I need a mallet to seat them so I am a little concerned that if I use PVA glue that I will have issues with them seizing up. I've been doing some research and it sounds a lot of guys like to use hide glue for tight joinery work because it acts as a lubricant. I've never used hide glue so my thoughts are to only use it on the dovetail joint and then use PVA to bond the rest of the laminate to the top. Is there any reason not to use this approach?


----------



## BurlyBob

MikeJ, I've been using Titebond Extended and it's working out quite well.

I took our digital bathroom scale out to the garage and weighed the parts I could; the legs and front half of the bench top. It that comes in at 297#, so adding the back half and rounding it down. I'm at 487# not including the stretchers, slats, deadman, leg vise and hardware. 'Brusier', is definitely going to tip the scales at well over 500lbs.

Headed out to glue one more strip on.


----------



## controlfreak

Burlybob, I don't think you will need to worry about Brusier wondering around while you are working.


----------



## BurlyBob

I have been trying to figure out how I was going to make mobile. I'm pretty sure that option is out of the question now. Like my neighbor said today. Once I get it built I'll have to figure out were to position it.


----------



## EarlS

Mike - I used Gorilla Glue (polyurethane) partly because I knew it wouldn't make the wood swell like water based PVA.

Bob - Bruiser indeed!!! If you include drawers you can probably add another 50-60 lbs or so to it without including anything that would go in them. The Rockler casters are rated at 400 lbs. I'm sure there are others out there that can handle more. I put some on my bench just so I can move it to clean behind and underneath it when spring cleaning comes around.


----------



## BurlyBob

I bought a set of casters and have decided not to use them. I'm thinking with that type of weight pushing the toggle down would eventually pull the bolts thru the legs. I'm developing a plan on where I'm going to set 'Bruisier'. It might work out much better than moving it everyday like I do all my other tools so the wife can park inside the garage.


----------



## EricFai

Bob, that is a beast of a bench. I have a half dozen milk creates filled with jars of hardware, sitting on a shelf. That seems to give me the weight, and the bench does not move.


----------



## BurlyBob

Yup, that's why I named it 'Bruiser'. When I started lining it out I said, "Man that's gonna be a big bruiser". Looks like I was wrong. There's still several pieces yet to go plus the hardware. I'm going to weigh everything before I add it and total the weight when I'm done.

Like I sad at the beginning I have a bad habit of overbuilding. I also said go big or go home. What was I thinking?


----------



## EricFai

The current bench I built from left over materials from the shop build, 2x stoch ripped down. It basically a bench frame with a 4'x8' piece of subflooring topped with a 1/8" piece of hardboard. So it's more of an assembly table, but it works for now. At some point I will build a traditional woodworking bench complete with a mixture of vises.


----------



## EarlS

That's a tidy shop with plenty of space.


----------



## Mosquito

Bob, what I did with my big lathe and lathe stand filled with sand was put adjustable elevator/leveling feet on it. They normally don't touch the ground, but can lift it just enough to get a pair of moving dollies under it, then drop it down on them. Move it, and reverse the process. Not as fast as flipping down levers on Rockler wheels, but effective for me. Of course, the lathe stand has bottom feet cut from 4×4 laying horizontally so I had space to mount them easily. Not sure if it'd fit your situation.

If I remember when in home tomorrow, I'll try to grab some pictures


----------



## Mosquito

Actually found some old ones. Started with two, and added a heavier duty third one on the middle. I lift with the middle one, then support with the outside two, then do the same on the other end. It stays more stable when lifting one end at a time that way


----------



## EricFai

Earl, it sure does not look like that now. That photo was taken shortly after the shop build.


----------



## BurlyBob

Got the another piece glued to the back half bench top. Tomorrow I hit it with hand planes and Monday I see when/if i can take the bench tops to the cabinet shop. I sure hope that belt sander will work.


----------



## Lazyman

Bob, I've used this technique to move my 400 lb lathe. I would not want to want to do it everyday but for occasional moves, it works pretty well.


----------



## BurlyBob

Here's some proof of progress photos on 'Bruiser". I've got it upside down to make sure the legs fit the mortises.
Tomorrow I do some marking for the mortises on the base and the two stretcher that will support the benchtop.



























This was an annoying discovery. I did manage to reduce the gap to some degree. I figure I'll plug the gap with glue and sawdust or a thin shim strip.


















More to follow later.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Maybe I'm horrible or lazy or horribly lazy but I wouldn't bother fixing that on the bench. It doesn't affect the function or the looks in any way. Nothing to worry about and put that in your pocket as the one flaw on this build and be happy.


----------



## BurlyBob

I've been thinking I'm going to put 'Bruiser' in front of peg board. It's 6'8" and that space between the columns is 9'.
I'm planning on setting it 2 1/2' out from the wall. That should give me plenty of room to move it comfortably and get my boat parked in there for the winter.


----------



## Foghorn

> This was an annoying discovery. I did manage to reduce the gap to some degree. I figure I ll plug the gap with glue and sawdust or a thin shim strip.
> 
> - BurlyBob


If the gap is 1/16" or larger, a splint/shim would definitely be best and virtually disappear if you're careful with the grain and color. Sawdust and glue for larger gaps always shows. Or just leave it as suggested.  Looking great Bob. Way heftier than my bench but mine floats like a butterfly and stings like a bee!


----------



## BurlyBob

Yeah, I'm seriously thinking that really thin strips might hide the screw up. We'll know better when I get the base built and the bench tops sitting on it. Tomorrow I start marking out for the base mortises.


----------



## EarlS

I had several gaps with my bench. I filled them with wood filler (Plastic Wood?), sanded them down and kept going. I don't even see them now.

Are those legs 6×6? I'll say it again - that thing is a beast. I would have liked to make something that size but it wouldn't fit in the shop. Yep, I'm still jealous, maybe even a lit bit more than before. :+)


----------



## BurlyBob

The legs are almost 6×6. I seem to remember them being 5 3/4 by 5 1/4. As it sits in that photo it 487lbs and there's more to add to it. I won't be getting anything done on it today, yard work.


----------



## MikeJ70

Bob, It looks like you are making some good progress. Keep at it big guy.

This past weekend I was able to dovetail the last laminate to the end caps on the back 1/2 of my top. It didn't go as well as I would have liked and not even close to my practice pics I posted. One side turned out acceptable for a first timer, but I ended up with some major gaps on the other so I'll need to do some repair work. I was really bummed when I put it together but it will mainly sit against a wall so you will never see it.

Here it is sitting on the base. Like I said, it is the back 1/2 and I just have it facing forward for lighting for the pic










Here are some closer shots



















And here it is zoomed in so you can really see the gaps. I planed the left side flush and I only have a minor repair to do, but the right side is really going to test my craftsmanship abilities. I'm not sure how the shoulder line got so far off for the center pin and I believe I sawed too close the the line to cause the other major gap on that center pin. The end grain of this Sapele is really brittle and tends to just crumble if you are not careful or your tools aren't super sharp.



















I've been researching the best way to repair the gaps and Rob Cosman has a good youtube video about it.

Yesterday, I took the afternoon off from work to start on the front side. I was able to get the tails cut on both ends and the pins marked. I really took my time and concentrated on being precise and so far I am happy with them. The pins are the hard part and I'll start cutting those tonight if I get the time. I just need to stay focused and concentrate on being precise and hopefully I'll get some better results.


----------



## EricFai

You could try cutting some small shims and drive them in so the end grain showing. After sanding flush you will not be able to see it. Blends in very well.


----------



## BlasterStumps

you could peen the pins with a ball-peen hammer and most likely make the gaps disappear.


----------



## MikeJ70

> You could try cutting some small shims and drive them in so the end grain showing. After sanding flush you will not be able to see it. Blends in very well.
> 
> - Eric


Yep, that's the plan.



> you could peen the pins with a ball-peen hammer and most likely make the gaps disappear.
> 
> - BlasterStumps


I thought about this method too, but I'll have to do some testing to see how the end grain behaves. It seems to be quite brittle.


----------



## EricFai

Mike, the boxes I made recently had a through dado for the top and bottom panels, and the boxes were made with finger joints. I had this little 1/8" square sticking out. And that is how I filled them, something to keep on mind.


----------



## EarlS

Mike - those houndstooth dovetails look pretty good to me. You could also make some filler with fine sawdust and dark glue.


----------



## Lazyman

I would probably try to widen the gap just enough that you can glue a different type of veneer to each face to give you a cool outline of the dovetails.


----------



## MikeJ70

> Mike - those houndstooth dovetails look pretty good to me. You could also make some filler with fine sawdust and dark glue.
> 
> - EarlS


I've never been happy with the way sawdust and glue as a filler looks. I think there are places where it works and you can get away with it like to fill a nail hole, but I think it's going to standout too much on a dovetail. By using shims you can maintain the end grain and it will blend in better (hopefully).



> I would probably try to widen the gap just enough that you can glue a different type of veneer to each face to give you a cool outline of the dovetails.
> 
> - Lazyman


I had a similar thought, but then I would have to do it on all 4 so I'm looking for the easiest solution right now. I'll see how the next two turn out and go from there.


----------



## rad457

The mark of a true Craftsman is being able to repeat his mistake to pass as design


----------



## MikeJ70

> The mark of a true Craftsman is being able to repeat his mistake to pass as design
> 
> - Andre


Ha. I'm good at repeating, but I don't know about the passing it off as design part.


----------



## controlfreak

I call the glue and sawdust method "buttering" and I have needed it a lot. If you go that route I would use the lighter wood to fill the gaps. Also make sure to use a plastic putty knife to mash it in. Metal knives turn it into a black goo.


----------



## HokieKen

You could also try burnishing your edges Mike. That's generally how I make miters fit tightly. Just take a piece of metal rod and kinda roll the edges over to fill the gaps.


----------



## Mosquito

That's what I do when I need to, though I usually use a screwdriver specifically lol


----------



## MikeJ70

> You could also try burnishing your edges Mike. That s generally how I make miters fit tightly. Just take a piece of metal rod and kinda roll the edges over to fill the gaps.
> 
> - HokieKen


Good idea. I've done that on my miters before as well, but I guess I didn't think of it for this instance. I haven't flushed up the pins on the really ugly side yet so I should have enough meat to possibly make it work.


----------



## bandit571

I need to clear off all this mess…









Rumour has it, that there is a bench under there, somewhere….

Have 4 planks to haul to the shop, later….would like to set them down on the bench…IF I can find it…


----------



## Lazyman

That is nothing, Bandit. My bench is covered with electrical stuff related to the new subpanel and extra circuits I just added to my shop in anticipation of the new Mini Split that I hope arrives next week. At least I think there is bench under there. I am too embarrassed to show a picture.


----------



## Mosquito

Which bench? My handtool bench is surprisingly empty-ish. Has some gloves, some 3M abrasive pads, and some finishing wax, while I finish a chair. The other two mobile/power tool/assembly benches… those are plum full of … everything


----------



## duckmilk

Likewise Mos. My embarrassing bench currently has one board (soon to be picture frame), a tape measure and one beer on ice packs ) Correction, now no beer on it.


----------



## CaptainKlutz

Sounds like we need a "The most cluttered work bench" (if you dare to post) thread?


----------



## bandit571

Not cluttered..merely busy


----------



## theoldfart

I prefer to think of it as useful detritus!


----------



## EricFai

I'm one to usually work on 3 or 4 projects at a time, so the bench gets cleared off frequently. I try to keep the tools picked up, and there is usually a pile of saw dust under a few tools.


----------



## Sylvain

> Sounds like we need a "The most cluttered work bench" (if you dare to post) thread?
> 
> - CaptainKlutz


Paul Sellers' policy quote:
"We all let things slide now and then but then we don't give in to a point that we can't recover."


----------



## Bearcontrare

Certainly was not worth the asking price, but an interesting little saw bench, all the same….. Could be copied with a bit better construction for shop or site use.

Little saw bench I ran across in an antique mall here in Hagerstown, MD yesterday. Doesn't show well in the photo, but that's a tool well at the bottom.


----------



## EricFai

That is neat, well used.


----------



## bandit571

This mess is now on the bench..









And..not much else…









For now…


----------



## MikeJ70

I made good progress this weekend. I was able to get the front laminate dovetailed to the endcaps and had much better success than the back.





































I had to drill for the end vise screw before I did the final assembly and that turned out with no issues..










I was also able to fix the gaps on the back dovetails and for the most part they turned out well. Here is a before and after



















now I have to do some final dimensioning to the top and try and get both sections co-planer.


----------



## EarlS

Looks pretty darn good!!!


----------



## BurlyBob

Good job there Mike. Those look really fine.


----------



## controlfreak

Bench is looking sexy there Mike


----------



## EricFai

That is coming along good Mike.


----------



## duckmilk

Well done Mike!


----------



## rad457

There ya go, mistakes? what mistake, true craftsman!


----------



## HokieKen

Looks great Mike!


----------



## KelleyCrafts

Excellent work Mike!!


----------



## BurlyBob

Hi all, Earl sent these to me some time ago. I decided to use round bench dogs as they were easier for me do. If anyone is planning on building a Roubo with square bench dogs I'd be happy to pass them on. PM me and we will make it happen and you can thank Earl.










I took a break from working on 'Bruiser'. I'm fixing to get back at in the morning. This is the slot I have for the tail vise and I'm pretty sure 21 1/4" is a tad to long. Anybody got some advice for me. I'm planning on a 12/4 black walnut end cap.


















Tomorrow is all about getting lined out for mortises and tenons. I'm thinking I want a double laminate top stretcher with 1 1/2"-2" thick tenon to support the weight of bench top. The legs are 5 3/4" by 5 1/2" so I know they can handle the mortise for the stretchers.


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## HokieKen

Earl is a generous guy  Good on ya for passing them on down the line Bob!


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## BurlyBob

I quite agree Ken. These bench dogs are really impressive. I regret not using them. I had pretty well gotten the bench top glue up and had decided to use round dogs.


----------



## Lazyman

Bob, what are the dimensions of those dogs. I made some quick and dirty ones and haven't got around to making a nicer set yet but I may not have used the same dimensions that Earl did.


----------



## jwoodcraft

I inherited this in the '70s from friend of friend who moved away. Added the vise and dog holes & patched a few knots. Reworked the vise mounting a year or two ago. The top is a piece of glue-lam fir beam 3 1/8"x23"x80", it just sits on the 2×4 & particle board base. Good enough, I guess, as I haven't changed it, although as I'm left handed, the tail vise should be on the other end, but I'm too settled to it now.


----------



## EarlS

Bob - I wound up installing the tail vise then making a filler piece to shorten up the slot. The slot wound up being just a bit longer than the tail vise screw. I also made the slot too wide which means the screw is ~1/4" or so into the opening. Rather than making another filler strip to run the length of the slot, I modified the dog block a bit so it wouldn't rub on the screw. I took some pictures and explained it better in the blog.


----------



## EarlS

Nathan - Here is the picture of the plans for the square dogs. I hope it is legible. I don't think I strayed too far from the dimensions.


----------



## Lazyman

Does it say the width is 11/16? What about the depth of the head?


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## HokieKen

This may be helpful Nathan.


----------



## Lazyman

Thanks Kenny, I did a quick search but didn't find them. We've got some guys putting in some new turf in our backyard so I only had a minute to look before they arrived and had a bunch of questions.

Bob, I will take them if no one else has spoken for them.


----------



## MikeJ70

Bob, you could make your dog block that rides on the carriage longer and that would take up the slop.

I decided to reduce the number of dog holes spec'd out in the plans and then made my block with 2 dog holes spaced 4 apart.










I think the travel on the screw is overkill and it really only needs to be whatever the greatest distance is between dog holes.


----------



## BurlyBob

Here's a couple photos of the bench dogs. Earl definitely kept them within specs. Like I said they are very impressive.
Earl did an awesome job on these just like he did his bench.

Nate, I've still got all 9 of them. Do you want all or part of them? Let me know and I'll get them in the mail ASAP.


----------



## Lazyman

Looks good. They should fit since I pretty much follow the BC measurements too. I actually have 9 dog holes, 10 if you count the wagon vise chop, so I'll take them all if there isn't someone else who would like some of them.


----------



## BurlyBob

Nathan, As I recall there are 9 of them so I'll get them off to you as soon as I can.


----------



## BurlyBob

I gave up trying to work on the bench legs in the upside down position and pulled them. I set them up and got all the mortise locations marked correctly.

Then I got the idea of trying to another prototype. These are the prototype of the dead man and the dead man rail. I was quite pleased how they turned out.


----------



## MikeJ70

How did you cut those Bob? Table saw or router/shaper? I have my rail made and attached, but I still need to cut the mating V groove in the bottom of the deadman.

A lot of tedious work this weekend. I was able to cut the mortises in the top to sit on the base and then I spent the rest of the weekend getting the fit dialed in. The shoulders for the tenons at the top of each leg were off more than I liked so I made sure the top of the tenon was square to the leg and used my router plane to dial them in. I had originally tried using my shoulder plane to dial them in when I first made the legs, but the end grain on that Hard Maple is a pain to work. Both top sections are now sitting on the base and the front section rocks just a little bit so I need to do a little more planing to get it to sit solid. Then it is on to getting both sections co-planer, which I'm not looking forward to.


----------



## BurlyBob

Mike, I've got a Delta x5 table saw and a 45 degree angle square from Taylor tool works. I marked out the 45 using a red ink pen and found he center of the piece. To cut that 45 I had to set the fence on the right side of the blade and creeped up to the center line. I think it took 4 passes to get it where I wanted it. That red ink pen really works well for such things.


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## Lazyman

These showed up today.









In usual Earl fashion the finish of these was fantastic. Unfortunately, I had to shave a biteoff 2 sides to make them fit my dog holes.

Thanks Bob for passing them along. And of course Thanks Earl for making them for me. It probably would have been more efficient to just send them to me directly and not route them through Oregon.


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## EarlS

Nathan - glad to help ….sort of…. Sometimes I get mixed up on where to send things. I see I also forgot to trim the bottom edge off the UHMW spring strips. Anything else I forgot to send directly to you? ;+)


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## Lazyman

I was going to comment on the spring strips but I figured… gift horse and all. ;-)

I'm sure I'll think of something you need to send me. Actually, feel free to send me anything you decide to make.


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## EricFai

Earl makes some great tools, I'd take them anytime he wants to share. I received a great set from the last swap. Thanks again Earl, I use them frequently.


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## BurlyBob

Glad you got them Nate. Like I said they were very impressive. 
Man it's getting hot here could hit 100.


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## ac0rn

You can keep that 100. Yesterday we had our yearly high 69 degrees and breezy.


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## EricFai

We had to high 90's a few weeks ago, with the humidity.


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## EarlS

Jeff What part of the country are you in? Sounds like my kind of climate. The corn and beans sure like the weather lately, hot, humid, rain every 3-4 days. Me, on the other hand, not so much. Forecast is for highs in the low 90's and dewpoints in the low 70's.


----------



## Mosquito

that's similar to my forecast too Earl, but I would not mind some rain every 3-4 days to go with it… the yard is looking a little rough at the moment


----------



## theoldfart

What is this thing you call "rain"?


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## EarlS

> What is this thing you call "rain"?
> 
> - theoldfart


It's kind of like sweat but not salty…. and it smells better


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## EricFai

We get the high Temps and humidity here to. But the past few days it's been lower than average, which is wonderful. Just hope the storms hold out fir a few days while the daughter and grandkids are here. Planning on getting out on the lakes the next few days.


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## bandit571

warmed up 82 clear and SUNNY degrees…same old, same old….


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## theoldfart

Oh, lot's of small fires too! People do not learn till their home is burning it seems.


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## ac0rn

Seven miles north of Sequim Washington 98382, 1000 feet to the water, with 22 miles of water to Victoria, British Columbia.


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## BurlyBob

I'm trying to develop a battle plan for the next few steps on the bench leg mortises. Anyone think I should order the retro glide bracket from Benchcrafted? There's things about it I like about it but it is a little more work to install. I'm building my bench to 35" tall and consider raising the mortise a full 2" from the bottom of the leg.


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## theoldfart

Bob, are you referring to the BC criss cross? I installed mine during the build when the leg and chop could be clamped down and worked on a flat surface. I used a bit brace to bore out the waste. Then I used a post drill to install the pins to hold the cross. Didn't need the retro bracket.


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## BurlyBob

Kevin, I've crossed the line of departure for this next battle. I'm cutting stretchers today and getting primed for mortises and tenons. I'm thinking I'll go with out the retro bracket. I've got enough to do as it is.


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## Lazyman

With the retro criss-cross, I think that the only thing you really save is drilling the hole for the pin. I used a drill guide from Hovarter to do it on mine even though I did it before I mounted the leg. It came with an extra long bit the size needed for their x-link (criss-cross). My bench top drill press was too wimpy for the weight of the leg and the chop, not to mention having enough height adjustment for the the chop. There are other drill guides out there or you can make your own too.


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## theoldfart

Well go get 'em Bob and post a few pics along the way!


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## BurlyBob

I got the dead man stretcher cut to rough today and the two upper support rails. My hesitation to proceed has been broken and I'm getting ready to really get after it. Tomorrow I plan on cutting the last three shelf rails and start setting up for the mortises. My juices are percolating now! I can see light at the end of the tunnel.


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## Lazyman

Getting to the good part, Bob.


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## BurlyBob

Yeah Nate, don't you know it.


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## BurlyBob

I got the AC unit in the garage today. This should make life much more enjoyable for the rest of the summer.


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## MikeJ70

Bob, what did you install for AC? I definitely need to invest in something after this past weekend. I didn't spend a lot of time out in the shop, but the time I did spend was productive. Both tops developed some twist after glue up so I spent some time last week getting them to sit rock solid on the base and then over the weekend I worked on getting them co-planer. It was a lot of work, but I must admit it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. I almost have it completely dialed in. Just one little section left to go. Once that is complete then it's time to install the end vise, finish the leg vise chop, make the sliding dead man and install the shelf. The end is insight.


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## BurlyBob

Mike, this is how I installed my ac unit. My best friend gave this unit to me. It's not the top of the line by any means but it does work quite well. It's definitely going to be a lifesaver over the next few weeks as it is forecast to be in the mid to upper 90's in my area.




























I have not done much on my bench in the last several days Too many other things keep interfering with working on it.

That changes tomorrow. I've nothing on the horizon keeping from making progress on 'Bruiser'.


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## BurlyBob

Mike I cut a piece of Plexiglass for the top of the unit and that foam stuff 1"x1" to hold it in the fixture. It seems to be working so far.


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## MikeJ70

That should make things more comfortable Bob. I don't have any windows and I am reluctant to cut a big hole in my wall so I am thinking I am going to go with a Mr. Cool mini-split. I'm really wishing I would have installed it last year when I did my shop remodel, but I ended up upgrading my table saw so my funds ran out. It was close to 100 here yesterday so instead of working in the shop I decided to spend some time playing around with some designs I've been kicking around in my head for my leg vise chop.


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## bandit571

Here is a thought….

A couple years ago…Paul Sellers did a build series about a bench…..however, this one was to use Plywood…..but, the plywood was not laid flat…..it was ripped into strips, the strips stood up on edge, and glued up face-to-face….

One nice part…you will not need to buy that $$$ toothing iron to rough up the top of the bench….

Might look it up, sometime…..


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## Bearcontrare

It is well worth watching, even if you don't intend to build the bench. Very intetesting!!!


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## controlfreak

At todays plywood prices I may choose a different material, just saying. Crap, even the stuff with lumps and voids is costly.


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## HokieKen

Funny CK, I'm working on a rock climbing wall today. I priced it out using treated plywood and using deck boards. Pretty much the same price. Deck boards it is!


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## Sylvain

Paul Sellers didn't advertised his plywood workbench as cheaper than the solid wood one.
It doesn't uses exactly the same skills (no chopped mortises or dadoes) and was targeted to a slightly different audience.
It consumes also much more glue.

If using plywood, be prepared to sharpen your tools more frequently.
I am not sure but, if I remember well, in a comment, he said he had to sharpen his plane four times while planing the top.


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## controlfreak

I do not envy the man that has to edge plan plywood used in a laminated bench top.

Sylvain, it has been a while since I watched but I think his point was you can make a bench out of anything. So get your bench made and get busy making things.


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## Sylvain

I stopped procrastinating about my workbench seeing what Bandit571 could achieve with his one afternoon workbench.

Bandit571, many thanks to you.


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## controlfreak

I am always in awe of the amount of work that Bandits bench puts out. I guess I should say the work he puts out on that bench.


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## bandit571

And..the bench will soon be 9 years old….and still in use…


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## BurlyBob

I tried to fill a knot and some cracks with epoxy resin. I'm hoping it hardens up over night. It hasn't done much in the last 3 hours. But the container I mixed it is solid as a rock. I mixed 2:1 just like the instructions. If this doesn't harden I'm going to be really PO.d. After lunch getting ready to start cutting the tenons and mortises. I've also got the ridge on the Dead man planned for this afternoon.


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## Lazyman

Bob, Your new shop AC must be keeping it too cool in there for the epoxy to set.


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## BurlyBob

Nate, you should have seen the plastic cup I mixed in. Apparently, the mixed has a chemical reaction that creates heat. It warped and almost collapsed the cup. I checked the resin on the board and it's starting to harden. So all's well.

Tomorrow I get to decide if I start the mortises first or the tenons. I'm open for any advice.


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## bandit571

Tenons first….can always pare a bit out of a mortise for fit…..kind of hard to fatten a tenon for a better fit…


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## BurlyBob

Thanks bandit. I was leaning that way. One issue is that the front and back stretchers have to align with the front of the legs. This is another place for prototypes.


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## BurlyBob

The resin finally did harden and I got it all smoothed out. The stress fractures look good, the knot not so much. I'll just have to live with it.

Tomorrow I plan a practice mortise and tenon joint, maybe 2.


----------



## Lazyman

Maybe too late but for the knots but I like to use Startbond black or brown CA. Really big voids don't work as well but looks really good and is super easy for loose knots or relatively small fills.


----------



## BurlyBob

Yeah, it is to late for this go round but I may look around and get some of that resin dye.

I've got a prototype mortise and tenon joint planned for today. I may try it doing the tenon first and a second joint doing the mortise first. I'll see which one works best for me.


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## BurlyBob

Here's the results of my first effort for the mortise and tenon joint.



























After trying with this setup I'm going to come up with a plain rectangular template. It did work but I see where I can improve on this. I hope I have a piece of hickory laying around. I'm sure that would be much better for a template.

I know for a fact that working with larger pieces will be easier that these small scraps










You can see the divots in the sides of the mortise. I'm certain it's the results of using melamine.










I should have pulled out this corner chisel earlier in stead of trying to do everything with chisels.










These tenons went south on me. For what ever reason the band saw did not cut a very straight edge for me.
I've got an idea to build a jig I can clamp the piece and cut on the table saw.










This old #10 was one of my better buys. I almost past it up but for $25 I couldn't and boy am I glad I have it when I need it.










Here's the joint all put together. I offset the holes by a slight bit over 1mm off center. That was just enough to draw it really. It's just a dry fit and it's amazingly tight. There's no slop in any direction.








There's this little gap at the back. I think that's due to variations in how the shoulder came off the table saw.









All in all I was quite pleased with this first effort. I've got 2-3 more efforts planned to improve on this before I tackle the real deal.


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## EricFai

Your doing well Bob.


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## MikeJ70

Bob, for mortises with a router I find it easiest to make a template out of 1/2" mdf. I use a collet and a 3/8" up-cut spiral bit. To make the template I cut three pieces. I cut the two outside pieces at around 3" and the center piece is cut to the width of your mortise plus 2 times the offset from your bit to the outside edge of your collet. For my setup the offset is 1/8" so I make my center piece the mortise width plus 1/4". I hold the two outside pieces back to back or face to face and then mark for the mortise length (remember to add for your offset). I cut the third piece so I end up with two pieces and use CA glue and glue them to your layout lines. I put down some wax paper on a flat surface and clamp a board or use my table saw fence so I have something to push against. I glue one center piece on at a time to one of the outside pieces and then add the other outside piece. It's quick, simple and accurate. I layout for the mortise and use double sided tape to hold the template down. If the template allows I will use a clamp on both ends, but the tape is usually more than enough to hold it in place. Let me know if you are interested and I can shoot you some pics.


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## Sylvain

How to make mortises much wider than your chisels:
https://hyvelbenk.wordpress.com/2014/03/16/hovelbenken-i-mariestad-er-pa-fotene/ 
The text is in a Nordic language but the pictures are self explanatory.

I have used this method with success when doing a Moravian workbench for he son.

IMHO it is easier to make two "narrow" mortises than using a very wide chisel directly.


----------



## Lazyman

That is the approach I took.


----------



## HokieKen

If I were using a router to make the mortises, I think I'd just pare the corners down on the tenons rather than squaring up the mortises Bob. It's a lot easier and doesn't weaken the joint any. In truth it probably strengthens the joint to not have square corners in the mortise.


----------



## HokieKen

When I was chopping the mortises on my bench, somebody linked this video with Paul Sellers showing how to do it with bench chisels. I never looked back. I don't even use a drill to remove waste anymore.


----------



## bandit571

Long time ago..there was a Video series from China (GE HONG?) the fellow had a smaller shop than even I do. Watched him chop a through in about the time it will take me to type this out. I think it now goes by the title

Traditional Chinese Woodworking.

His "mallet" was the backside of a No. 2 Carpenter's Hatchet….and…he was even beginning the swing while moving the chisel to the next "target"......His chopping bench was a simple Saw Horse….and…he sat on the board being chopped. Of course, he did have a towel handy to sit on…..

By time others do all the jig set-ups…drill out the waste…....other will already have a mortise chopped out and tenon fitted. Watch Timber Framers…..see how they work with chisels….


----------



## Lazyman

I tried using bench chisels on my first mortise in the bottom of my bench, following Paul Sellers method, and I found I got much cleaner sides using a mortising chisel. I still followed his approach but quickly went back to the mortising chisels. My conclusion is that the crisp corners on the sides of the mortising chisel actually help to clean up the walls as you leverage out the chips, almost like another cutting edge, and also seem to make it easier for me to keep the chisel from twisting as I chopped.


----------



## MikeB_UK

Definitely helps to stop the chisel twisting - I generallly go with a registered chisel, less chunky but still without bevels for keeping it square to the sides.


----------



## Sylvain

> When I was chopping the mortises on my bench, somebody linked this video with Paul Sellers showing how to do it with bench chisels. I never looked back. I don t even use a drill to remove waste anymore.
> 
> - HokieKen


That is also the method I am using. I have only used cheap flea market bench chisels to chop mortises without problem until now.
Before chopping my first mortise a few years ago, I have looked at that video a number of times to perfectly understand what happens.
This video shows the fibers being sheared by the effect of the bevel and not by prying action on the chisel handle. 
Other important tip: listen to the sound to avoid nailing the chisel.

edit: Indeed, the bench chisel tends to twist some times.


----------



## controlfreak

I have tried with a bench chisel but found the mortise chisel is a better fit for me.


----------



## BurlyBob

I'm going to try making a template today using a larger piece of wood.

Ken I also thought that idea with rounded corners would work better and I intend to give it a try.

The plan is to do several more joints to get the process down pat so I know what I'm doing and do it correctly on the legs.


----------



## bandit571

Usually, I do the tenons first….Then trace around the tenon where the mortise will be going….Then when the chopping starts, I stay inside those lines….

Years ago, the first season of Steve Thomas on This Old House….where they were doing a Timber Framed House…they showed a class. Was all about how to cut a joint….perfectly. All sorts of tips.


----------



## MikeB_UK

Yeah I usually do tenons first and mark off them - same as a dovetail, tails first.

Not convinced on the rounded corners, I reckon I'd have a harder time getting them to match the tennon.


----------



## BurlyBob

For what ever reason this post is all screwed up. Guess I'll have to do this in two posts.


----------



## BurlyBob

This is the first template jig I tried and didn't like the results.




























This is the second template jig I've put together. It's still drying so I'll see what the results in the morning. I'm thinking this will be the one to go with. I'm kicking the idea of putting piece to space the mortise exactly 1/2" from the edge of the leg.


----------



## BurlyBob

This is today's effort. Looks like this jig will work for the mortise.



















Also the dado stack did a decent job on the tenon. It did require some extra sanding.



















I like the fit of the template jig over the mortise. Quite satisfied with .









This is how I decided to position it'










This is the fit I got with the mortise jig and prototype tenon.



















Monday, I'm planning another test run or three to see if it all comes together. If I can make it work we're good to go.


----------



## EricFai

Making some progress Bob.


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## BurlyBob

I did two more mortise and tenon joints today. It only took a little hand work to get the tenon to fit the mortise nice and snug. Now I know I can repeat the process successfully. Time to get serious!


----------



## duckmilk

Yes, good job Bob!


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## EarlS

Looks like they will fit perfectly. What are you planning to do with the ends of the thru tenons? Bevels or some other interesting detail? Tusk tenons with wedges?


----------



## MikeJ70

Great progress Bob. You will be doing final assembly in no time.


----------



## BurlyBob

Earls, about those thru tenons in the benchtop. The inside one is going to be wedged and the out side beveled one will have a corresponding bevel have a beveled slat as the last laminated piece on the bench top.

Tomorrow I get after the leg mortises, followed but the mortises for the bench top cross support pieces. Here's hoping I don't screw anything up.


----------



## bandit571

Just take your time…no rush…getting in too big of a hurry will lead to mistakes…VOE…


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## BurlyBob

You are so very right Bandit. Slow and steady wins the race.


----------



## BurlyBob

Here's the first mortise in the leg. Looks pretty good.










Then miscellaneous organic debris hit the revolving metal and crap went everywhere!










The router eventually crawled out of the mortise bit the power cord and ruined it.










Question? How many times and at what volume do you think the word F%#K was uttered in my shop?

This was such a rookie mistake I can't believe how stupid and careless I was!!!! After several hours and a couple of adult beverages I've got a solution to repair this F#*K up. This mortise is on the inside of the bench leg, thank goodness. I'm going to cut of the damaged piece from about 1" above the mortise to the bottom of the leg the full width of the leg. Get it cleaned up and laminate another piece to the leg. I'm probably going to put a couple of dowels in it as well.

So I know you all will what to know how this happened. As my kids use to tell me, It was on accident. That's all I'm going to say about it.


----------



## EricFai

That stinks, both counts. Now you should have just fixed it and not say a word.


----------



## EarlS

That SUCKS!!! I thought you were using a template to keep the router where it belonged?


----------



## rad457

After the first not so clean dog hole on my bench the plunge router was replaced with a Bit & Brace


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## Sylvain

the good news is that you were not hurt nor electrocuted.


----------



## controlfreak

That sucks Bob. I seem to have the same trouble with following a router template. I always get off course somehow and start eating the workpiece and template.


----------



## bigblockyeti

Was that your new router? The bit didn't slip in the collet did it? Sometimes when those things start rearing up, you gotta lean down on them hard and remind them who's boss!


----------



## Bearcontrare

At least it's not so bad that it can't be fixed, and in a place where the repair will be evident. Just don't tell anyone visiting the shop, and they'll never know.
We all have a boo-boo or two on our benches. But once corrected and the bench is in use, they don't really matter.
Carry on, Sir!!!


----------



## Sylvain

> Sometimes when those things start rearing up, you gotta lean down on them hard and remind them who s boss!
> - bigblockyeti


That is not for me.
I like Paul Sellers mantra: "work with sensitivity".
The sole (who is the boss) problem is, from time to time, a chisel which wants to twist when chopping a mortise; but it has no consequence on the final product.


----------



## controlfreak

I can screw things up with hand tools, power tools just let me do it faster.


----------



## Lazyman

My bench build was definitely a hybrid build. I hand chopped the mortises in the bottom of my bench but I used my CNC to cut the grooves for the leg vise crisscross. I used a handheld router to cut the groove for the sliding deadman on the underside of the top and the CNC to cut the holes and counter bores in the deadman. All of my tenons where formed by laminating boards together leaving one longer than the others. On a couple of mortises in the legs, I hand cut notches and laminated boards on either side to form the mortise.


----------



## BurlyBob

Let's say it was stupid Rookie AZZ mistake. Like I said I can't believe I was that stupid.


----------



## Lazyman

At my age, I am no longer amazed how stupid I am, Bob. I guess I've just gotten used to the idea. ;-)


----------



## MikeB_UK

At least you didn't painstakingly cut it by hand get a perfect hammer tight fit then find out it's on the wrong face.
I've, err, heard that can happen.


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## Sylvain

> I can screw things up with hand tools, power tools just let me do it faster.
> 
> - controlfreak


Faster (after jig and setup time) and deeper. Which might mean more time for repair work.

This reminds me working with a spreadsheet. It allows one to propagate a formula containing an error with great efficiency. Don't ask.

I admit one can screw things up with sensitivity but then, it is not machine induced.


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## rad457

> Let s say it was stupid Rookie AZZ mistake. Like I said I can t believe I was that stupid.
> 
> - BurlyBob


Are we supposed to keep track????


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## MikeJ70

That looks scary Bob. Glad to hear it didn't jump up and bite you. You can hide that no problem and no one will know.


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## BurlyBob

This was the solution to my problems from the other day. All I did was cut the section that had been damaged and glued in a replacement piece. I had to add some thing strips to add a little thickness. I ran the replacement piece thru the planer to get a better match.



















Funny what you find inside a piece of wood. Leftover piece of biscuits.










I did this on the table saw and band saw. I tried chiseling this smooth, gave up and put the dado stack back making short work of it.









The final fit came out pretty decent. It's sitting in clamps over night.









Tomorrow I'm getting some parts and hope to have this trimmed and can start over.


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## Peteybadboy

> This was the solution to my problems from the other day. All I did was cut the section that had been damaged and glued in a replacement piece. I had to add some thing strips to add a little thickness. I ran the replacement piece thru the planer to get a better match.
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> I did this on the table saw and band saw. I tried chiseling this smooth, gave up and put the dado stack back making short work of it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The final fit came out pretty decent. It s sitting in clamps over night.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tomorrow I m getting some parts and hope to have this trimmed and can start over.
> 
> - BurlyBob


Bob nice work!


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## EarlS

Mistake??? I don't see no mistake!!!!


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## BurlyBob

I didn't want to bore you all so I only posted these 2 photos.

This is all the legs in the bench top with the mortises cut in. I'll be squaring up the corners tomorrow.


















If you look close at the far leg you'll see a pencil line and on the inside you can tell where I put the patch.

I've got to order a new bearing collar and set screw collar for my long router bit. The next step is getting the mortises in for the bench top supports. That starts on Monday. I've got to get the bench top to my buddy and see if his wide belt sander can handle it. I'd love to have in evened out on both sides.


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## EricFai

Looking good Bob, nice save. Can't even tell that there was a wrong cut. The sign of a good Craftsman. Your shop is too clean.


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## Hazem

Mate, the bench is not much use upside down.

Hehe….it's coming along nicely.


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## bandit571

Never boring..always fun to watch other folks work.


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## EricFai

Argee with Bandit there. Both the good and the bad, along with some great ideas.


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## BurlyBob

Hazem, you are so very correct. I can't wait to get 'Bruiser' right side up. The more I work with it in this position I realize just how useful it would be to have a good bench.

I've got to agree with you Bandit and Eric. I'm not to proud to show off my screw \ups. Maybe others can learn and avoid them. Others should do the same more often. One of my best mentors told me that a good carpenter is someone who can hide their mistakes so no one notices them. I sure miss him he was one amazing and wonderful man. He taught me a lot!


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## bandit571

Dad always said: "A Painter will hide any mistakes from a Carpenter….an Undertaker buries a Doctor's mistakes"


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## BurlyBob

That's a good one Bandit.


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## MikeJ70

It's been a while since I posted some pics so here's a few to show my progress

The tops are flat and co-planer at least as close as I could get them. 









I still need to do final fit and finish on the leg vise chop









Here's a close up of the lambs tongue detail. I plan to mimic this design in the sliding deadman









The details blend-in in the pic. It looks a lot better in-person









The end vise is installed, but it is still binding so I need to tweak the fit a little and flush up the dog hole block to the top









Over all it is coming together and the end is insight. I just need to find some time to dedicate to getting everything finished 









Thanks for looking


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## BurlyBob

Mike, that looks really fantastic. Your dovetails are perfect and that edge trim on the leg vise is really excellent.


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## EricFai

Looking really good Mike. Like the leg vise details.


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## CL810

Great work Mike! Love your selection of wood for the bench. Envious of your wagon vise.


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## EarlS

Looks great Mike. What is the leg vise? Sapele? Based on the color, I'm guessing the end caps are the same species as the leg vise?


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## controlfreak

Looks sexy!


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## MikeJ70

Thanks guys. It's been a long project and hopefully I can have it complete before I hit the 1 year mark.



> Looks great Mike. What is the leg vise? Sapele? Based on the color, I m guessing the end caps are the same species as the leg vise?
> 
> - EarlS


You are correct. I needed 12/4 for the end caps and Sapele was the only species I could find locally so I think it was an obvious choice to have the leg vise chop (and dead man) match them.


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## HokieKen

Excellent work Mike. I love the design and wood selection


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## BurlyBob

I'm not sure where to post this. I made an order to Holbren.com for some router accessories. The prices are extremely reasonable, the shipping charges are amazingly excellent and the speed of arrival is out of this world. This is a company I will be using from here on out. Just offering my experience for others .


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## KentInOttawa

> I m not sure where to post this. I made an order to Holbren.com for some router accessories. The prices are extremely reasonable, the shipping charges are amazingly excellent and the speed of arrival is out of this world. This is a company I will be using from here on out. Just offering my experience for others .
> 
> - BurlyBob


Doing a review of the product will also reach more folks than just those on this thread. https://www.lumberjocks.com/reviews/new


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## BurlyBob

Latest progress. I'm amazed how well it worked out.









































































So many more steps to complete. It seems I'll never get to the end.


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## EricFai

Looks like you have figured it out Bob. Great job.


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## BurlyBob

Now I have to go back and clean out all those smaller mortises. Found last night I had forgotten to do that. So many more steps and processes to get this bench done. Will it ever happen?


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## EarlS

Now you know why it seems to take fks so long to build a bench. I found that taking a break for a couple weeks between major parts of the build helped keep me focused and I didn't make too many dumb mistakes. It also gave me time to.work thru the steps and figure out the best way to accomplish them and what order to do them in.


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## HokieKen

Yeah that's it Earl. That's why it took me 6 months to build mine. Taking intentional breaks to avoid mistakes. It had nothing to do with laziness or lack of focus ;-)


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## bandit571

Never, ever get in a big hurry…as the old saying goes: "Haste makes Waste"

( Says the guy who built his bench on a single Sunday afternoon….)


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## BurlyBob

Finished cleaning out all the mortises. Tomorrow, I cut the bench to final length, start tenons and get ready for the tail vise work.


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## MikeJ70

It's definitely a marathon project. I also have been taking breaks in-between major steps and found it helps my focus. I spent about a month and a half alone just on learning to do the houndstooth dovetails.

Deadlines take the fun out of it. Take your time and enjoy the process and remember that it's the journey not the destination. Once I changed to that mindset, my enjoyment has increased and my results have improved tremendously.


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## BurlyBob

That's pretty much what I'm doing. I'm retired and I've got nothing but time. this week I won't be getting much done on it as we have the grandsons till Friday.


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## bondogaposis

I'm starting a Moravian bench build. Here is what I got so far.


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## Sylvain

It was a nice challenge, when I made a Moravian for the son, to make skew mortises, tusk tenons and to make dovetails at the ends of a long board for the tool-well.


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## CL810

Bondo pose II?? Some lumberjocks weren't born when the bondo pose craze began. ;-)


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## Mosquito

I look forward to watching it together Bondo, I've been seriously considering one for a bench upgrade, now that I've got more space than a spare bedroom



> Bondo pose II?? Some lumberjocks weren t born when the bondo pose craze began. ;-)
> 
> - CL810


hahahahaha sad, but that might be true lol


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## controlfreak

A Moravian Bench can be a lot of fun to build and use. I love mine, it was my first hand tool project.


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## duckmilk

I vote for another Bondo pose from the original poser, maybe jazz it up a little ;-))


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## Mosquito

I can send you the blue wig :-D


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## HokieKen

How bout the gal with the blue hair Mos? Can you send her instead?


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## bondogaposis

I made some more progress today. I have the end assemblies done except for the big through mortises for the stretchers. I got a start on those.


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## Sylvain

I used this method for the wide skew mortises:








two times half way from each side and removing the center.
Working on a "Paul Sellers workbench" to make the Moravien one.


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## BurlyBob

really good news for me. I got the bench top sanded flat and even. I took it to my buddy's shop and ran it thru his wide belt sander. It was quite a job lugging and hoist it around. But we got the job done. It's quite a relief to haave both sides even and it only cost me a case of beer.


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## controlfreak

> I made some more progress today. I have the end assemblies done except for the big through mortises for the stretchers. I got a start on those.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - bondogaposis


Looking great Bondo!


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## bondogaposis

I didn't have a lot of shop time today. I was able finish up the through mortises for the stretcher tenons. I also sawed the cheeks on the stretcher tenons.


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## BurlyBob

I put a couple coats of ARM r Seal on the bench to protect it from spills and glue. This might be a terrible sin in the eyes of some but I feel better. I wasn't to worried about the quality of the finish. I just wanted it covered. It does look pretty nice. Kinda of reminded me of my old high school gym floor.



















Working on the mortises for the criss cross today.


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## controlfreak

Its funny Bob, yours looks great! Me, I like to beat mine up and prefer a more grippy natural texture. I figure I can always take a plane to it later. I am getting saw nicks around my tail vise and like them, to each their own I guess.


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## Mosquito

I have no finish on my bench because I'm lazy and never did lol Was going to use danish oil, just never found that "round to it" lol Your bench is looking great!


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## EricFai

That bench is looking great Bob.


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## Lazyman

That really popped the grain, Bob.

I just added a coat of Tried and True Varnish oil to my bench, mostly for glue resistance. I was originally going to put on 2 or 3 more coats but I wanted to start using the bench so never did. I decided to try Odies Oil on the leg vise and I am not impressed. After a couple of months , it looks like an old cutting board that has absorbed all of its mineral oil finish.


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## controlfreak

Come to think of it I put BLO on the bench mostly to get a little pop but it pretty much soaked in to where it looks mostly unfinished. I do need to seal up where may grand daughter signed the bottom rail.


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## BurlyBob

I've spent far too long worrying about things and today I pulled the trigger with both hands. I've marked measured and double checked myself seven ways from Sunday. Today was the day. I began drilling out for the leg vise criss cross. I used my roller stand in conjunction with the drill press table. It worked out quite well. It was also super nice to have two routers set up for this operation. I had one with a long pattern bit for use with the template I made and a second with a shorter pattern bit for the final cut. The photos of the mortise slots show the results. I'm really pleased with the results. Now I get to figure out how to correct that screw up on the outside edge where the black walnut piece tipped and caught the forstner bit.

The last photos show the leftovers of some of the work today. That Ridgid shop vac at the back of the bench got a work out today.









































































Tomorrow I drill for the acme screw on the leg vise and all the dowels on the legs. I might even get to make a bit of progress on the tail vise.


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## BurlyBob

About that finish on the bench top. Like I said it's only intended to protect it from spills and glue. It's a work bench and I really doubt I ever coat it again or for the foreseeable future. I'll probably to the same to the rest of the bench just to make it all look uniform from the start.


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## EarlS

Bondo - looks like you are making good progress.

Bob - that is gonna be too pretty to use.

Can't wait to see the Bondo poses for both benches.

I used some Watco medium walnut on the oak bench top. I figure I can always wipe on another coat if it needs one.


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## HokieKen

Looking good boys! I use BLO on my benchtop. I refresh it annually (in theory).

It's time to give my bench a flattening so before the year's out I intend to tackle that and I'll refresh the finish at the same time.

Now here's a question for the brain trust… I have 4 bench dogs that I move around to the holes that I'm using for a particular task. But that leaves a lot of holes empty. And I use my bench for electronics work often and have had many a tiny screw fall through a dog hole to the shelf below. And it can be a royal PITA to find and retrieve tiny screws from there. So do you all have a dog for every hole, leave holes empty or have some other solution? I don't see any real reason to make a bunch more dogs with spring catches and leather faces when I only use a couple at a time at most. And even with a dog in a hole, the cut for the face leaves a little pocket where stuff can still fall. My first idea is to just cut some 3/4" dowel to length and put it in there so there's a flat top. But tuning the diameter so that they stay put without falling through when something hits them but are still easily removed will probably require some sort of spring and that adds a lot of extra work.


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## MikeB_UK

I just stuck a bullet catch in the side of the dowel instead of anything fancy to stop the dowel slipping.

Little trays & bows stuck on the end of the dowel is handy when you are using lots of small parts as well - depends on if you need a big area of the benchtop flat or not.

Edit - But mostly I leave them empty and just dig around in the sawdust underneath when stuff falls through.


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## Mosquito

I've got a dog for every dog hole. I'd rather dig small screws out of the pocket in those than dig around on the floor for small stuff that falls through.

I've got basic round bench dogs, so they're super easy and cheap to make. I don't have any catches, or leather faces on any of mine, so that wasn't really a consideration when making them. Mine are all friction fit, some with more friction than others, but none have fallen out in 10 years of using it. A couple require a few mallet strikes from below to get it moving enough to remove by hand, but that's the worst of it


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## KelleyCrafts

If you don't want a dog for every hole then you could easily replicate something like this to cover the bottom of the hole that swings away when you want to put a dog in it. Or to put a 3/4 dowel and it will block it from going through.


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## Notw

I have a dog with a catch in every hole, if something falls into the little recess on the face then simply pushing the dog up a little gets it out.


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## KentInOttawa

> Now here s a question for the brain trust…
> So do you all have a dog for every hole, leave holes empty or have some other solution?
> - HokieKen


I'm obviously the odd man out with this one. I have a stack of flattened boxes and cardboard dividers (thank you, Ikea) that I pull out and use on the bench as required. Sometimes I use them to keep the grunge from some tool restoration from getting to the bench and other times so that I keep project bits and pieces together. As a bonus, I can relocate the entire project if I need the bench for something else.










In some cases, they also get used for shop notes, layout guides and templates. Any way that I use them, they are always cheap and easy to set up. If they get too dinged up or dirty, I just recycle them.










I also have a piece of 1/8" panelling screwed to some cleats that I use sometimes. The cleats get clamped in the front and end vises to keep it from moving and my machinery doesn't ding up my work surface. Oddly enough, the only dog holes that ever clog up are the two 6"-deep holes in the end vise jaws. I've never had anything other than sawdust and wood chips fall down a dog hole.


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## Sylvain

Kent solution is obvious.
I was going to propose a piece of thin plywood or hardboard to cover the bench.
When I made a Moravian for the son, I have given him a piece of plywood for when he would be doing other work than woodworking.


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## KelleyCrafts

A thin piece of sheet goods or plywood is a decent answer but then you have to store the thing somewhere. A silicon mat that you roll up is definitely an option and the same results. I have a couple I lay out when I put finish on something.


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## HokieKen

I keep a piece of hardboard to lay on the bench for some stuff but it covers the tool well and I don't like that because sometimes I want to use the tool well at the same time.

I guess I can cut dowels and put bullet catches in the sides without too much time invested. Then I can make them into dogs if/when needed.


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## HokieKen

> If you don't want a dog for every hole then you could easily replicate something like this to cover the bottom of the hole that swings away when you want to put a dog in it. Or to put a 3/4 dowel and it will block it from going through.
> 
> - KelleyCrafts


That's a good option I hadn't considered. But time and expense wise, I think dowels with bullet catches is more efficient.

Maybe I can get them friction fit like Mos and not even need the bullet catches? I doubt it but it's worth a shot. My hole diameters seem to vary non-uniformly. So I can have a dog that fits perfect in one hole but is overly-tight in another. Even though all the dog holes were done at the same time with the same auger bit.


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## Mosquito

> Maybe I can get them friction fit like Mos and not even need the bullet catches? I doubt it but it s worth a shot. My hole diameters seem to vary non-uniformly. So I can have a dog that fits perfect in one hole but is overly-tight in another. Even though all the dog holes were done at the same time with the same auger bit.
> 
> - HokieKen


That is why my dogs are numbered starting at the leg vise end lol If you buy dowel from a big box store, they're not very consistent in size either, so you might be fine


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## KelleyCrafts

Well if you throw an order in to Lee valley at any point you could add some of those. They aren't to expensive and they swing out of the way.

My dog holes aren't all the same either. Did mine on a drill press even and still not exactly the same.


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## controlfreak

Kenny, you could get a Rockler glue mat or a canvas scrap to put down and roll back up when done. The only problem is remembering to do it before you drop the screw.


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## Sylvain

> I keep a piece of hardboard to lay on the bench for some stuff but it covers the tool well and I don t like that because sometimes I want to use the tool well at the same time.
> - HokieKen


I suggest:
Cut your piece of hardboard along the line between the benchtop and the well.
Then hinge them together wit a piece of strong/duct tape.
When you don't want to cover the well, fold the corresponding part under the other.


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## EarlS

What about the plastic caps like are used on threaded pipe or valves?

Something like this: Hole Cap


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## Lazyman

I bought a Silimat when peachtree had them on sale last month. It is large enough to cover my entire bench and will work for small parts work as well grimy work restoring planes and glue drips.


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## bandit571

Ever look at the dogs sold by Kreg? The Dungeon Wood does use them….


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## KelleyCrafts

I should have grabbed one Nathan. I have two of the rockler large mats but I use more than one surface during glue ups. I tend to make bigger furniture pieces more often than I thought I would.


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## DavePolaschek

My solution is like Kent's. I have a stack about 6" thick of cardboard from various sources, cut to various sizes for topping the bench when slopping finish around, or working on something with small parts, degreasing an old tool, pouring epoxy, or other project where I'd rather not booger up the benchtop. I almost never throw clean cardboard in the recycling, and what I do throw out is usually too dirty for recycling, but I've generally reused it a few times.


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## Lazyman

> I should have grabbed one Nathan. I have two of the rockler large mats but I use more than one surface during glue ups. I tend to make bigger furniture pieces more often than I thought I would.
> 
> - KelleyCrafts


I have a Rockler one too and I like the texture and feel better. The Silimat is a little sticky and by that I mean that sawdust and dirt seems to stick to it more than it does to the Rockler mat but it is nice and big.


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## bigblockyeti

For plugging holes in a bench, I would use a medium durometer foam rubber rivet installed from the bottom with an interference fit and a shoulder for consistent depth. cut them long then shave flush with your blade of choice. You wouldn't even have to remove them prior to inserting a dog, just push them out the bottom.


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## bondogaposis

Twenty mortises later, I have the base done. Still needs a little clean up and some Danish oil.


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## HokieKen

Pipe caps and foam rubber are both good ideas I hadn't thought of  I still think that time/cost wise, I'll just buy some 3/4" dowel and some bullet catches and spend a couple hours making plugs that can be turned into dogs if/when the need arises. The endgrain will look cool on top too ;-)


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## EricFai

I use thedog hold on my Moxon Vise Bench to hold chisels and an Awl. If I had a large bench with dog holes I would use a piece of cardboard or some 1/4" sheet stock.


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## controlfreak

> Twenty mortises later, I have the base done. Still needs a little clean up and some Danish oil.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - bondogaposis


Looking good there!


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## Foghorn

> For plugging holes in a bench, I would use a medium durometer foam rubber rivet installed from the bottom with an interference fit and a shoulder for consistent depth. cut them long then shave flush with your blade of choice. You wouldn t even have to remove them prior to inserting a dog, just push them out the bottom.
> 
> - bigblockyeti


 Great idea. Made me think that the polyethylene rod used for joint filler would work as well. https://www.foambymail.com/blog/insulator-filler-and-fixer-foam-expansion-joint-filler-backing-rod/

Edit: You could even melt some shoulders on using your wife's frying pan or iron when she wasn't looking.


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## BurlyBob

I had a really decent day working on Bruiser. I got all the holes drilled for the criss cross mechanism and dowel holes for draw boring the tenons.

These photos are of the tail vise kit. I was surprised how well it went. Just a little more work on it tomorrow.














































I've got to be careful and not get to cocky here, thinking that I might know what I'm doing.


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## Brit

Kenny, I think you're trying to address the wrong problem. The real question is why are you dropping small screws. Is it age, poor eyesight, are you falling apart? Do you need to get yourself checked out? )

Seriously though, I'm with the cover the bench with something brigade. I have an old plastic banner that I unroll along my bench whenever I working with small parts or doing dirty restoration work.


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## Sylvain

> Kenny, I think you re trying to address the wrong problem. The real question is why are you dropping small screws.
> - Brit


There are those inox cups with a magnet under. They are done to avoid this.
Of course it doesn't work with every material. But anyway, putting the screws in a known place is always better.


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## Sylvain

> Twenty mortises later, I have the base done. Still needs a little clean up and some Danish oil.
> 
> - bondogaposis


Nice.
The most challenging part is done.

As I had ploughed the groove for the tool well in a single board and thus before cutting the dovetail, I had to ensure the grooves would be aligned. This is what I did for marking the pins from the tails (the tails are on the long board):









The piece with the clamps is a dovetail sample used as a clamping square.
There is a piece of wood playing the role of the tool well bottom which ensure correct groove alignment.


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## BlasterStumps

Since I no longer have a tool well on the bench, I needed some place to store my user planes so they didn't have to lay around on the bench top. Some I keep in a drawer but I wanted these out and close to the bench. Kent's posting the other day was the inspiration I needed to get this little project done.


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## controlfreak

The bottom of my Moravian is my clamp rack, it just worked out that way.


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## bondogaposis

I have been slicing and dicing up some big birch slabs into strips for the bench top. They are very warped and there is a ton of waste on the jointer and planer to get them straight and flat. I can't think of a better use for them. This is the first glue up of the top. I will have to break down at least one more slab to get enough for the full width of the top.


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## BlasterStumps

Looking good Bondo. Great start on the top. Is that wood hard on the knives in your tools?


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## Sylvain

I have limited the waste while making tops with recycled wood:

Boards, if not too thick, will have some flexibility and don't need to be perfectly straight.
Board were solely flattened across the width to have a good gluing contact.
I have made the tops of two workbenches by first gluing the 3 straightest board I had, making a rigid starting foundation. I then glued additional boards one a a time.
I even used seriously twisted boards by
- cutting them in 3 or 4 pieces;
- clamping them on the already existing slab;
- refining what would be a butt joint between two sections by sawing between the to ends;
- gluing all the sections;
- planing the new edge square to the slab;
repeat with the next twisted board in such a way that the section are staggered.
I keep a "good" board for the last glue-up.

It is a bit of work (all by hand) and gluing one board at a time needs extra time but I was using free recycled wood (and I am retired).


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## controlfreak

I did have a 6" jointer (now sold) when I milled my top. I wonder how well I would do with a hand plane now? You are right Sylvain, as long as the flats glue together you can always true up the front and back faces later.


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## KentInOttawa

I have a stash of recycled 2×4s that I've hung on to for far too long. I'm working towards making a 5-foot long English-style bench (a la Sellers) using Sylvain's approach. It will be a lot of work, but like Sylvain, I have the luxury of finishing on my own time so I can move the speed of execution as far down my list of considerations as I would like. This technique allows me to use up more of this *ahem* *ahem* less-than-ideal lumber.










It has taken me about nine years, but I finally got it all planed 2S to clean up the gluing surfaces. But first, I need to saw the applewood stumps stored under that pile into saw handle blanks and repair stock. And so it goes…


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## bondogaposis

I have the clamps off of yesterday's glue up, and set it on the base. It is beginning to look more like a work bench. The next birch slab is in the hopper to be sliced up. I hope I can get the width I want out of it. If not, I have more birch slabs.


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## Sylvain

One additional benefit of gluing one board at a time, I should have pointed out, is that you don't need heavy clamps (as recommended by Chris Schwarz in his Anarchist workbench free PDF book chapter XII). 
Clamps for which you might have no use afterwards.
Light aluminium sash clamps are strong enough.


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## Sylvain

> I have the clamps off of yesterday s glue up, and set it on the base. It is beginning to look more like a work bench.
> - bondogaposis


Looking good


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## HokieKen

> Kenny, I think you re trying to address the wrong problem. The real question is why are you dropping small screws. Is it age, poor eyesight, are you falling apart? Do you need to get yourself checked out? )
> 
> - Brit


I've been checked out Andy. It turns out I am getting older, my eyesight sucks and while I'm not exactly falling apart, there are a lot of noises coming from parts of my body that suggest I may be in the near future ;-)

I have my harboard I use to cover the bench top but like I said before, I don't like covering the tool wells. So I think I will take it and cut out the sections for the tool wells. I'll still make dog blanks to go in the empty holes but I use the hardboard pretty often anyway and being able to use it AND access the tool wells sounds like a damn good idea


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## BurlyBob

I've hit a bit of a slow down. I've got both bench top support stretchers fitted and started on the base shelf stretchers.
I got the first tenon fitted and come to find out I'm going to be fitting each tenon individually as each mortise just a tad different from the next. I guess that's why it's a custom built bench.


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## EricFai

Bob, you have to love custom builds. You will get it done.


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## BurlyBob

Yeah I know but I thought I was on the right track to making things more uniform and easier. Boy was I ever wrong. Tomorrow, I'm back at it again. I'm gonna win this fight.


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## BurlyBob

Success!, I've got all the tenons cut for the base. Tomorrow I custom fit everything together. It's actually starting to look like a bench, only upside down.


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## EricFai

Good for you Bob. Waiting to see it.


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## EarlS

Bob - Pictures? How are you planning to flip it upright?


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## BurlyBob

Once I get the base dry fitted I'm going to pull it, set it up on the floor where it's going to live and then set the bench tops on the base.

I've still got to get the tail vise and end cap married. I was bouncing around struggling to tackle everything and not getting anything accomplished. So I stopped, took a pause, decided to get the base done then move onto the next step. Just so many things to do and I didn't have a really clear processed planned out. It's going better now. I'm hoping to be done by the end of Sept.


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## Lazyman

Get some help, Bob. When I lowered my top onto the legs, both ends had to drop down together for the tenons to slide onto the tenons. We had to left and try again a couple of times to get it even….not to mention, its dang heavy.


----------



## BurlyBob

Here's the photos you asked for Earl. I've gotten 8 tenons custom fit. I'm pretty satisfied with the fit. Only 4 tenons left, then a dados for the bottom shelf. I have to drill holes for the leg vise screw and the chop. Once I get all that done I'll do a dry fit before moving on to any thing else.


----------



## EricFai

Looking good Bob.


----------



## BurlyBob

First dry fit of the bench base.

I'm thinking I might have to assemble the base on the bench upside down to check the fit. I already see a couple of shoulders that need to be trimmed a bit. I also need to cut a dado for the base shelf and marks for draw boring the tenons. I'm getting real close to the halfway mark.


----------



## Lazyman

I tested the fit of the base on my bench top upside down. Much easier to lift the legs on top of the top than the other way around.


----------



## BurlyBob

Now I have to got back and trim some of tenon haunches. The first fit wasn't as tight with the bench shelf stretcher. It's just being difficult. Besides it's to hot to work in the garage anymore today. Time for a cold adult beverage.


----------



## EarlS

Bob's bench will be the epitome of a sexy beast.


----------



## HokieKen

You mean *another* epitome of a sexy beast.


----------



## BurlyBob

Spent the morning trimming the tenons for a good fit. Pretty satisfied with the results except for one tenon. I'll fix that one tomorrow.



























This is the first dry fit of the base in the bench top. All in all it's a decent fit.

















Tomorrow I get to pull things apart again and do some more work to it. I'm pretty sure I'm at the half way point.

Ken as you can tell this sexy beast has been on the feed bag far to long.


----------



## Brit

That's looking really good Bob. Keep it up.


----------



## EricFai

Like it Bob, especially that malet.


----------



## Lazyman

What I want to know is what is that car doing in your shop?


----------



## theoldfart

I was just going to say that.

Periodically my wife reminds me that I have both bays in the garage when I complain about lack of space.


----------



## Lazyman

I finally got my wife to stop calling it a garage.


----------



## EricFai

Mine likes to call it the shed, I tell her that is what is down the hill where the lawn mower is.


----------



## BurlyBob

I get to use that half of the garage/shop when she's not around or I need the space. At the end of the day I roll all my tools back to my side of the garage. You ought see how cramped it is when I park my boat in the back sideways. That's only 4 months out of the year, generally. I might have a friend who will rent me part of her garage this winter to store the boat.


----------



## Sylvain

My work space is about 2 X 4 m in the attic.
Workbench about 1.5 X 0.6 m.
No space for machinery of course.
I have sometimes used the guest room as assembly space.


----------



## bondogaposis

Looking good Bob. That is going to be massive when you get it done.


----------



## bondogaposis

I'm working on the alignment for the wagon vise, fussy work. Nothing is glued yet, all dry fit.


----------



## BurlyBob

Bondo, I'm in pretty much the same space. I got to get everything squared up to make the final cuts for a tenon in the end cap. Pi$$r is I got to buy another 12/4 piece for and end cap. What i got is not thick enough for the bench top.


----------



## ac0rn

Bob, Why not glue up what you do have to make the 12/4 ?


----------



## BurlyBob

Jeff, I guess I could. I hadn't honestly thought of that. It would work, wouldn't it?

Today I got the holes drilled for the acme screw and the recess. I also finished everything for the leg vise chop, trimmed and tapered. I am liking that so far. Tomorrow it dados for the bottom shelf and the shelf supports. Also some final work on the tail vise slot. That's going to be really fiddly.


----------



## BurlyBob

You all see that nasty grey front bench in the back ground? My Dad had the physical plant crew build that for him and his men to repair the radar back in the 60's at the Condon USAF Radar Station. They closed the station back '70.
Dad got the bench from the base after he retired. Dad never did anything with it and I begged him for it back in the 80's. I've had it ever since. It's been a reloading bench, storage bench and now a work bench. I've remodeled it so many times. It needs some more up keep. I can't imagine having a shop with out it. I've had it in my life for over 40 years. Good memories.


----------



## therealSteveN

Sylvain, I start to sweat thinking about working in a space that small. but if that is what you have, you must make it work. I would think I would have to really think about projects I could do, and only could work on one at a time. I tend to have 10 to 20 at a time in the air, like a juggler, but I can let them roost when I am done for the day.

Bob, looking good. That old gray beastie of your Dad's would cost a thousand or 3 to make today. Plus it has sentimental value, which you just can't buy. I love me a good wall bench.

I plan to start my next bench near the first of the year. Mine is gonna be one of the FUGLY design, but so very high in utilitarian value as to be scary. A hybrid for sure, thinking MDF top. I have the Ash, and Hard Maple for the legs, and skirts, just need to do some sawing, joint's and assembly. Easy Peasy right.


----------



## MikeJ70

Bob, your bench is looking fantastic. I love the story about the bench you got from your dad. I'd say that thing is priceless.

Life keeps getting in the way for me so my progress slowed once again, but I was able to get back in the shop this past weekend and I am getting really close to the end. I just have to finish making the bottom shelf and then just do a once over on the fit and finish and it will be celebration time. I am hoping it will happen this weekend so stay tuned for final pics.

One thing I overlooked when assembling the base, I forgot to drill the dog holes in the right front leg. Since I have a sliding deadman, are they really needed?


----------



## bondogaposis

I have the wagon vise fully installed and it works smoothly. I installed the end cap bolts as well. Now to take the whole thing apart and glue the dog hole strip on and the front in place and pray that it all works smoothly as it does now.


----------



## bondogaposis

Wagon vise is in and working well. Next up the leg vise.


----------



## CL810

Slick!


----------



## BurlyBob

That's looking awesome Bondo.


----------



## duckmilk

Looks great.


----------



## Hammerthumb

Well after a few months of staring at the Veritas twin screw I bought for my bench, I decided to get it installed on the bench I built a few months ago.
























I also got the dog holes drilled, flattened the top, and applied linseed oil. The bench is darker than I would like, but all of the wood was salvaged from slabs left by the prior homeowner. I feel the cedar is to soft for a good durable bench, but the purpose of the build was to give me a work surface to use while I put my shop together. Total cost I have in this bench is the cost of the twin screw vise. I will make another bench next year.
Not sure about the twin screw choice. It doesn't rack, which I like, but doesn't have a quick release. It seems a little stiff and doesn't move as freely as I thought it would even after adjusting several times. Maybe some one else who has one will chime in with their experience with this vise.


----------



## EricFai

That bench looks good, can't help any with the twin screw.


----------



## DavePolaschek

I've got the Veritas twin screw. As for moving freely, I almost always run it with the left handle off, and turn the right one. This ends up causing the left one to periodically loosen and rack, at which point it becomes very hard to move. Loosen up the bit the holds the sprocket for the chain to one of the screws and make sure you've got it adjusted square, then tighten it back down. If that doesn't fix it, I'm not sure. Maybe the screws aren't parallel, or maybe you've got something in one of the screws or the chain.


----------



## BlasterStumps

if you undo the chain from both sprockets then you can see if the stiffness is particular to the operation of one side or the other. just my 2 Cents.


----------



## Hammerthumb

Yeah, I was going to take it apart anyway to see if I can get the handles clocked together. That may be the issue. Thanks for the recommendations guys.


----------



## BurlyBob

I've got everything drilled for dowels. I'm having a devil of a time figuring out the installation for the tail vise. I plan on watching a couple of YouTube videos and maybe come up with the answer.


----------



## EricFai

Wish I co7ld be there to help.out. I try to think out outside the box.


----------



## BurlyBob

I believe/hope I've figured out what my problem was. I was looking at the Bench crafted plans and forgot the difference between them and the bench I'm building. I kept fixating on the screw holes for the tail vise rails. I forgot about the outside laminate where the dovetails will be. The screws won't be anywhere near the dovetails. I was concerned that the screws would damage the dovetails. Some times I can't see the forest for the trees.

Anyway between myself, 'Stick in the Mud' and my neighbor, we may have solved my problem. Here's hoping for better progress tomorrow.


----------



## bondogaposis

I finished up the leg vise backstop and installed the nut.









Vise chop is cut out and ready.








Dry fit, ready for parallel guide.


----------



## Mosquito

Looking great Bondo!


----------



## Hammerthumb

Almost ready for the Bondo pose?


----------



## Mosquito

Nah, he already did the Bondo pose, so this one should be the Gaposis pose lol


----------



## duckmilk

+1


----------



## HokieKen

I have two NOS Millers Falls #56 bench stops to relieve myself of. $50 each includes shipping in CONUS. PM me if interested.


----------



## memilanuk

bondogaposis said:


> Wagon vise is in and working well. Next up the leg vise.
> 
> View attachment 1027156


How are you liking that style of handle for the wagon vise? I've been considering that Tay Tools kit for an upcoming build, but I'm not sure if I like that handle. I wonder how hard it'd be to swap out for something different, like a handwheel or hub-n-bar?


----------



## EarlS

Ken - I would be interested in one if they are still available. Just having the one Veritas bench stop doesn't work well when I'm trying to use the belt sander. Let me know and I will get a check out to you.


----------



## bondogaposis

memilanuk said:


> How are you liking that style of handle for the wagon vise? I've been considering that Tay Tools kit for an upcoming build, but I'm not sure if I like that handle. I wonder how hard it'd be to swap out for something different, like a handwheel or hub-n-bar?


It is hard to say at this point, as I am still building the bench. I haven't used it at all. I do think that certainly a hand wheel and an acme threaded rod would work faster. The price at $27 was so reasonable I had to give it a try.


----------



## bondogaposis

A little further work on the leg vise. The parallel guide is done.


----------



## BurlyBob

This post of photos and trying to put the text is has been a real PITA. 

Today I finally quit messing around and made the jump on the endcap tenons. Tomorrow I finish the tail vise slots and rail recesses.

Still struggling with this new system.


----------



## HokieKen

One of the Millers Falls bench stops is sold. The other is still available if anyone's interested. If no one is, that's okay, I may hold onto it in case I run into a similar problem to the one Earl is having and decide I need a second one...

Speaking of, I'm a bit stuck with analysis paralysis 😬 I can't decide where to put mine. You guys that use one, show me some pics and let me know why you do/don't like it there? I'm pretty sure I want it right in front of my leg vise but I can't decide how far in from the edge it needs to be. 3"? 4"? 6"?


----------



## HokieKen

Bondo and Bob, you guys are making good stuff happen


----------



## Mosquito

HokieKen said:


> Speaking of, I'm a bit stuck with analysis paralysis 😬 I can't decide where to put mine. You guys that use one, show me some pics and let me know why you do/don't like it there? I'm pretty sure I want it right in front of my leg vise but I can't decide how far in from the edge it needs to be. 3"? 4"? 6"?



I've got my replica centered probably around 4" back from the front of my bench. So far it's been a pretty decent spot for me. My bench dogs are about 2" from the front edge, so this is back a little further. I was struggling with it a little too, in that I wasn't sure what was better. Closer to the front was appealing so you don't have to reach across as much of the bench to plane, but then as you need to move wider boards forward to plane the far side of them to push in line with the bench stop, well now you've got your work hanging off the front of the bench too.


----------



## HokieKen

My dog holes are 3-1/2" from the front of the bench I think. I feel like that's probably a pretty good spot. But then sometimes I think "it would be nice not to reach over so far" and the next minute I think "what if I have a wider board?" Maybe I really should hang onto both stops and put one in now and add the second one later if there's something about the first that I don't like....


----------



## Mosquito

Yeah, that's the debate I kept having too. If I've got a wider board, then I think having it closer to centered on the bench would be better, but then I realize if it's too far back, then planing the fronts of wide boards I'll end up hanging the board over the tool well, which would mean it would have to be clean enough to accommodate that lol

I still have my original planing stop, which was just a 1/8" thick piece of plywood with 2 dowels stuck through it, and glued, that spanned between a dog hole and a holdfast hole. It spanned the whole width of my bench. That seemed like a pretty decent solution too, that I'll probably hang on to


----------



## Notw

Just thinking out loud as I do not have a bench stop but I don't think i would want it in front of my leg vise, seems the potential for hitting my...knee on the leg vise would be higher


----------



## HokieKen

If it's in front of the vise, the work stops at the vise. That would give me most of the bench to work with and will also keep me from working into the vise. My first thought was to put it closer to the end of the bench but then, like you said, I would have bruises from the stupid leg vise chop.

Second Millers Falls stop is spoken for. Sorry folks.


----------



## Mosquito

That's a good point, though the planing stop represents the end of where you're planing. I've smacked my knee on my leg vise screw enough times to be pretty aware of exactly where it is these days lol

Mine is on the far side of my leg vise, but hasn't caused me any major issues yet. I might be tempted to put it on the near side of the leg vise if I build a bigger bench. But for my slightly over 4' bench, maximizing the space was more important


----------



## controlfreak

Not sure why but I went in front of my leg vise.


----------



## BurlyBob

I've got to cut that outside strip and finish the tail vise slot today. Hopefully I can varnish the bottom of the legs as well.
I plan on putting a piece of inner tube on the bottoms to avoid the wood from drawing moisture out of the concrete floor.


----------



## Lazyman

HokieKen said:


> One of the Millers Falls bench stops is sold. The other is still available if anyone's interested. If no one is, that's okay, I may hold onto it in case I run into a similar problem to the one Earl is having and decide I need a second one...
> 
> Speaking of, I'm a bit stuck with analysis paralysis 😬 I can't decide where to put mine. You guys that use one, show me some pics and let me know why you do/don't like it there? I'm pretty sure I want it right in front of my leg vise but I can't decide how far in from the edge it needs to be. 3"? 4"? 6"?


If I was a (bigger) jerk, I would buy it and list it on ebay for a profit. But I am not (that big of) a jerk (most of the time). 

I put my replica stop near the end similar to where Mos did and aligned with my dogs so that I could if I needed us it with my wagon vise. It basically is like one more dog. It is close to the leg vise and I have not used it enough yet to know if it will be a problem with the leg vise getting in my way.


----------



## bondogaposis

I added crubber to the leg vise chop and oiled it. I then fired up the forge and made a pin for the parallel guide. It all works well together and I'm ready to move on to the tool tray.


----------



## duckmilk

Mosquito said:


> Nah, he already did the Bondo pose, so this one should be the Gaposis pose lol


As long as he doesn't follow Fridge's example, that pose had plenty of gaposis.


----------



## HokieKen

Poor Fridge. Always the butt of the joke. Homie hasn’t been around for quite some time. I figure the wife caught him with his weiner in the cookie jar and fed him to the gators.


----------



## duckmilk

Haha, actually, his last post on LJ was Feb. this year. We oughta send him some PMs, or whatever they are now, and if we can figure out how.


----------



## HokieKen

I have his phone number. We should all just call him.


----------



## ac0rn

Ken, Why not place a stop at both ends of the bench. Then in the event of a wide board you can turn the board around and still work comfortably in the correct grain direction. Although then you could be ambidextrous.


----------



## HokieKen

Well, for better or for worse, I picked a spot and did the deed…


----------



## controlfreak

Oh God, anywhere but there!

Just messing with you.


----------



## BlasterStumps

I like it Kenny. Nice work.

Seeing that screw head gives me an idea. On the stop that I put in my new work surface, it has a type of wing bolt that I don't much care for. I might cut a slot in it so that I can use a screwdriver to raise and lower the dawg.


----------



## EarlS

Finally remembered to measure the location of the bench stop. It's 5" off the front, and about 18" from the right end, in-line with a bench dog. The bench dog doesn't help since it is set up to hold boards for the tail vise. Biggest issue I have with a single bench stop is when using the belt sander. The board wants to pivot around the bench stop any time the sander isn't directly in-line with stop. Having a second one (probably 10" from the front) will prevent that.


----------



## duckmilk

I just accidentally stumbled on this twin vise set-up.


----------



## CL810

Interesting alternative Duck. Thanks for posting!


----------



## BurlyBob

I got the end cap tenons cut and the leg vise put together. Tomorrow I start putting the base together. There's a little light at the end of the tunnel.


----------



## bondogaposis

I finally wrapped this project up. I think it will function well.









And in case you think it may be flimsy.


----------



## EricFai

The bench looks great and sturdy, the splayed legs turned out wonderful.


----------



## duckmilk

Bench came out great! Your classic pose pic is a little small, I wonder why?


----------



## BurlyBob

Very nice job there bondo. The pose maybe.....


----------



## bondogaposis

I'm not sure why the pose picture came out small. My daughter took it with her phone and sent it to me through messenger. Then I posted it. The other photo I took with my slr and uploaded to my pc.


----------



## Sylvain

Very nice workbench Bondo.


----------



## CL810

Great bench Bondo! Your workshop looks like a busy place. Is the flooring laid over concrete? I've wondered about doing that in my shop.


----------



## duckmilk

I have plywood over my concrete floor Andy. I made some furring strips from treated 2x4s to keep any moisture away, glued those down and screwed the ply to those.


----------



## bondogaposis

Yes, that is a concrete floor. It got too cold in winter and after a few years I put down a Home Depot product called Dricore. It has been great, much easier on my knees and warmer too. Makes my shop so much more pleasant. It was super easy to install, by far the hardest part was moving my tools around. I did it in thirds, moving stuff to one side and then back onto the finished floor, then another third and another, until it was done. It is supposed to be a sub-floor, but I just put floor varnish on it and haven't had any issues in 4 years, now. I thought it was a little spendy, but the ease of installation made up for that.


----------



## KentInOttawa

@CL810, when my shop was built, I used a cheaper variation on the Dricore solution. Basically, plywood is screwed down over the type of dimpled membrane used for foundation waterproofing.








It is standing up well after two years, and the surface is much softer than the concrete would have been. It has already saved a few tools, is much more comfortable to work on, and moderates the temperature swings in the shop. I highly recommend using any of the plywood flooring solutions like Bondo's or Duck's, although I also recommend putting a finish on it to fill the pores and made the wood last longer. HTH.


----------



## CL810

Thanks Gents! I really need to do this. Hopefully next spring after knee surgery recovery is complete.


----------



## Mosquito

CL810 said:


> Thanks Gents! I really need to do this. Hopefully next spring after knee surgery recovery is complete.


I'm in the same boat (minus the knee, hope that goes well!). I had thought about doing it when I finished the inside of the shop a number of years ago (walls and ceiling), but the cost at the time wasn't something I wanted to add in quite yet. I'm thinking more about it now, though. I suppose I wouldn't have to do all of it at once either, if I didn't want to. 

DriCore is a brand name, and they've got Subfloor which is more of a plastic, and Subfloor R+, which is a type of foam. Twice the R value (3) but half the load rating (3,153lbs/sqft). 

I've used about 400sqft of a product called DryBarrier, which is a very similar thing, but without the OSB top on it (and 11,500 lbs/sqft load rated). I used it under vinyl plank flooring in 3 rooms in the basement, and it was similarly quick and easy, and worked great under the LVP flooring. Plus the flooring was about the same height as the carpet+pad that it replaced, which made for a nice transition from the carpeted hallway to the vinyl plank flooring in the rooms. Might be another option to consider, if thickness of the flooring is a factor


----------



## BurlyBob

This is all I've gotten done in the last week. I keep getting interrupted and pulled away from the shop. I won't be able to get back at it till Sunday afternoon. Then it won't be till Thursday before I can get after it again. I'd be close to done by now if people would leave me alone!


----------



## EricFai

Bob, when your good folks seem to want you to do things for them. Hard to say No at times.


----------



## BurlyBob

Don't I know it.


----------



## bondogaposis

Looking good Bob, you'll get there.


----------



## BurlyBob

Here's today's progress. Bruiser is finally put together. Not finished but put together in what could be it's permanent home.























There's lot's left to do. Getting to this point is very satisfying.


----------



## CL810

It looks like your plan has worked out great! I'm looking forward to the final bench.


----------



## EarlS

Bob - I officially have bench envy. I'll also say size matters. Makes me want build an addition onto my bench top.


----------



## HokieKen

A burly bench for a Burly Bob! Looks awesome man, great work.


----------



## BurlyBob

Thanks guys, I'm still makeing very slow progress. Tomorrow I finish the base shelf and start varnishing. Next week I get another piece of 12/4 black walnut for one end cap.


----------



## EricFai

Sounds like progress Bob.


----------



## BurlyBob

Very slow but sure progress. I sure wish I could work as fast as Bandit!


----------



## Sylvain

BurlyBob said:


> Very slow but sure progress. I sure wish I could work as fast as Bandit!


Making jigs and using machinery is not always the fastest lane, especially for one off operation.
Although, speed is not important here.


----------



## BurlyBob

Here's a small problem I've found. The bench top is not sitting on the leg properly. I've used a clamp to pull it down . When I released the clamp the top moved back up into this position. As a result the top is not flat and straight across both sides. I'm thinking I might pull the top off and try a bit of light sanding on bottom third of the joint to see if it will slide down flush with the leg joint.


----------



## Lazyman

You mean sanding the tenon?


----------



## EarlS

Bob - are those the thru tenons?


----------



## HokieKen

I’d leave it be Bob. A top that big isn’t going to move. I had a similar issue where my legs shouldered perfectly… and then I put the bottom stretchers in and they moved a bit and there were some minor gaps. I pinned the joints and it hasn’t been annissue in 6+ years. Plus it’s not visible😉


----------



## Sylvain

I would not try to force the top at the risk of twisting it. (small risk as it seems to be thick)
If the underside of the bench-top is flat (straight and without twist), the problem is with the leg assemblies (it might be caused by an uneven workshop floor).
But I think HokieKen is right, leave it as is.

My workbench is of different type (Paul Sellers). I built it in the backyard. When I moved it to my workspace, it was rocking. A well placed shim between the workbench-top and one of the leg assemblies cured the problem. (The top is glued to the apron and makes a very rigid L beam).


----------



## BurlyBob

I stopped at High desert hardwood on the way home and blew bunch of money. For another end cap. Thankfully this maybe the last piece of Black Walnut I need!


----------



## MikeJ70

Bob, your bench is looking great. It won't be too long and it will be covered in tools and sawdust. As far as that gap between the base and your top, it's not a piece of furniture and you will never see it so as long as the tops are flat and co-planer, I would just leave it alone.

I completely lost momentum on my build (I looked back and my last post on here was Sept. 6), but I was finally able to spend this past weekend working on it so I am really close to being finished. I did the final fit and finish on it and assembled it for hopefully the last time. The last thing I had to make for it was the gap stop. Instead of following the Benchcrafted plans and making it slotted for tools, I decided to just go with a solid board. My last decision was do I put a finish on it or do I leave it raw and for now I decided to just use some BLO on the leg vise chop and sliding deadman. I'll probably do the end caps as well, but they will need a little cleaning up first.

Here are a few pics. The first one is the deadman before BLO and the second one is with. The change isn't as drastic in the pics as it is in-person:





















I just have to reinstall the leg vise chop and move it to it's final resting place and then it will be complete.

Mike J


----------



## BlasterStumps

looks very nice Mike! That bench ought to serve you well for a long time. Nice job.


----------



## BurlyBob

Mike the problem I'm looking at is that the two side are not flat and even. I'm going to be doing some sanding on the slots to get both side flat. Problem is I'm tied up till Wednesday. 

About your dead man. Can you remove it to store elsewhere? That's another thing I want to figure out. I've been doing things on Bruiser as it sits and it's really great. I've only got 9 pieces of wood to install and it's done. Six of those pieces call for dovetails, half blind hound tooth dove tails. If I'm lucky by Friday I'll have the bench top issues solved.


----------



## MikeJ70

Bob, I think the deadman is supposed to be removeable, however, the slot on the underside of the top that it rides in does not have enough play in it to allow me to remove it. It's a non-issue for me right now. If I ever have a need I can just remove two lag screws and then I can lift up the top to remove it. If I get to a point where I need to do it constantly then I will remedy it then.

I had a lot of issues getting my two tops to sit coplaner also. I did a bunch of hand planing to the underside of the top where it meets the base and then I realized that my garage floor was so out of level that it was causing a lot of my issues. I had to put one end of the base on 3/4" blocks and then I shimmed the other side to get it level in all directions. Then I proceeded to get both tops close by again just planing where they meet the base and once they were close I proceeded to flatten both. I was really dreading this task and I was afraid of screwing it up somehow, but it ended up being not too bad to do.


----------



## CL810

Mike your bench looks great! Love the wood choices.


----------



## plantdude

BurlyBob said:


> Definitely going to have one in my bench. I'm tired of tools falling off the table and getting banded up on the floor. I can clean it out when ever needed. Replacing tools is a cost I don't like to repeat.


I built my bench with a tool tray and I am glad I did. It is a place where I can keep my ruler and other stuff that I use and they don't fall off the bench or take up room on the surface. It fills up with saw dust and chips but that is easy to clean out.


----------



## Lazyman

KelleyCrafts said:


> Here it is.
> 
> View attachment 1254402
> 
> 
> I'll do a write up when I do some dovetails. I'm to lazy today to prep some boards but I couldn't wait to run a saw over something in it.
> 
> Initial thoughts, this is much higher than anything I've had in the past. I think I really like it but the jury is out until I get some time under my belt with it.
> 
> First few cuts weren't even close to square to the edge but after a handful the last ones were plenty close enough to make some dovetails.
> 
> View attachment 1254465
> 
> 
> We'll see how things go with this but already my back stays pretty much straight up and down, use only my arm to move the saw so I think this will elevate some back pain cutting dovetails when my back is at just the right angle to hurt without it.


I went looking for your Moxon vise project but realized you didn't post one so had to hunt down a picture. I just noticed that the chop is offset from the top? When you have chance, can you post a picture from the side? I am trying to decide how I am going to make the bench top bench. I like the flat surface behind the vise rather than the traditional Moxon with just the vise. 

Also, for anyone else who has built a Moxon using the Benchcrafted or Wood River kits, any regrets about having the screw stick out like that. I saw one Youtube example where they pinned the wheel to the screw so that the screw moves rather than just the hand wheel, more like a traditional vise and I was thinking about doing that.


----------



## HokieKen

Lazyman said:


> ...Also, for anyone else who has built a Moxon using the Benchcrafted or Wood River kits, any regrets about having the screw stick out like that. I saw one Youtube example where they pinned the wheel to the screw so that the screw moves rather than just the hand wheel, more like a traditional vise and I was thinking about doing that.


I think that's what I would do too Nathan. I would install the hardware as intended first to try it out but I typically try to avoid things sticking out. Especially hard metal things.


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## KentInOttawa

plantdude said:


> I built my bench with a tool tray and I am glad I did. It is a place where I can keep my ruler and other stuff that I use and they don't fall off the bench or take up room on the surface. It fills up with saw dust and chips but that is easy to clean out.


I was watching a recently-released-to free-subscribers Paul Sellers video (BLANKET CHEST: EPISODE 7) has a few good shots that show both a tray AND a bolt-on rear rack. Trying to track down all of Paul's various builds and customizations (drawers, shelves, saw hangers, this rear tool rack, etc.) can be a pain.
(EDIT: oddly, a shot of Paul Sellers working on his bench got flagged as "sensitive adult content" 🤣 )

__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content









I keep watching and noticing how he uses his bench and his work space. This approach appeals to me, and it may be implemented when I finish my second bench (in the slowest bench build known to LJs). I started collecting lumber about a decade ago and I'll putter on it now and gain. Here's a 2022 shot of the progress so far.
My current bench is free-standing and I often use both sides and one end, so the add-on shelf/rack is a poor choice for my current bench.








Notice that Paul has carpet and/or rubber on the floor and that I have plywood. I drop my tools more often than I would like and more than Paul does on-camera. I know that the softer flooring has saved a few edges and prolonged other tools service lives.


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## Lazyman

KentInOttawa said:


> I know that the softer flooring has saved a few edges and prolonged other tools service lives.


I usually have rubber mats around my bench both for comfort and to save edges on dropped tools. The only downside, is that I once dropped a freshly sharpened chisel that landed handle down which bounced up and sliced my shin.


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## KentInOttawa

Lazyman said:


> I usually have rubber mats around my bench both for comfort and to save edges on dropped tools. The only downside, is that I once dropped a freshly sharpened chisel that landed handle down which bounced up and sliced my shin.


IME, the plywood doesn't do that. On the flip side, you won't need to repaint your mats.


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## Mosquito

I've got anti-fatigue mats at places I'm stationary for a while. In front of the work bench, between the two lathes, and in front of the CNC and computer (which is where I play saxophone). I have a couple rugs/scrap carpet around left from the previous owner that I've used for a similar purpose as well. Anything's better than concrete lol


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## bandit571

Sometimes...I do need a second "Bench"









helps when installing a back to a case...


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## builtinbkyn

Lazyman said:


> I went looking for your Moxon vise project but realized you didn't post one so had to hunt down a picture. I just noticed that the chop is offset from the top? When you have chance, can you post a picture from the side? I am trying to decide how I am going to make the bench top bench. I like the flat surface behind the vise rather than the traditional Moxon with just the vise.
> 
> Also, for anyone else who has built a Moxon using the Benchcrafted or Wood River kits, any regrets about having the screw stick out like that. I saw one Youtube example where they pinned the wheel to the screw so that the screw moves rather than just the hand wheel, more like a traditional vise and I was thinking about doing that.


Nathan, this is my version of a worktop bench/moxon vise. I also didn't like how the kits worked so I used CNC components. I didn't want the screws taking out my privates when I wasn't paying attention lol. The link to the blog build is on the project page. You can probably find thicker lead screws is you wanted something more robust.









Inexpensive Moxon Vise


builtinbkyn's Project




www.lumberjocks.com


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## KentInOttawa

bandit571 said:


> Sometimes...I do need a second "Bench"
> 
> View attachment 3857880
> 
> helps when installing a back to a case...


Improvise, adapt, and overcome.


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## MikeJ70

Anyone here use the Benchcrafted crubber for added grip for your leg vise? I reinstalled my leg vise chop last night with the crubber glued to it as well as the mating surface on the bench top. I can't say that it is offering any extra holding power and possibly the opposite. Wondering if I got a bad batch? I figured I'd see what others have experienced on here before I reach out to Benchcrafted.


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## builtinbkyn

For someone wanting to make a moxon vise, I think this setup will work well and is much cheaper than the kits available. The lead screws I used (8mm with a 2mm pitch) can flex a bit when the jaw is extended out far if something like a box is needed to be held. However it's not really an issue once the jaw is tightened. But the screws at the link are 12mm (1/2") and I doubt they will flex much if at all. That kit also comes with bearing blocks to support the free end of the screw. Heck I may change mine over to these. I don't think I'll even have to bore a larger hole in the hand wheels. It looks like the end is 8mm. I drilled the hand wheels to accept set screws and they work perfectly.


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## builtinbkyn

MikeJ70 said:


> Anyone here use the Benchcrafted crubber for added grip for your leg vise? I reinstalled my leg vise chop last night with the crubber glued to it as well as the mating surface on the bench top. I can't say that it is offering any extra holding power and possibly the opposite. Wondering if I got a bad batch? I figured I'd see what others have experienced on here before I reach out to Benchcrafted.


I prefer tooling leather for vise jaws. Much more durable than that Crubber.


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## Notw

MikeJ70 said:


> Anyone here use the Benchcrafted crubber for added grip for your leg vise? I reinstalled my leg vise chop last night with the crubber glued to it as well as the mating surface on the bench top. I can't say that it is offering any extra holding power and possibly the opposite. Wondering if I got a bad batch? I figured I'd see what others have experienced on here before I reach out to Benchcrafted.


I have it on my leg vise, no issues with it, works great for me


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## MikeJ70

Notw said:


> I have it on my leg vise, no issues with it, works great for me


Ok, what texture does yours have? I would think it would be somewhat soft and grippy but mine is closer to hard and smooth almost to the point of being slippery. I clamped a board in it to test it out and it moved quite a lot, so I would say it is not useable.

What glue did you use? The instructions say yellow glue is fine so I used Titebond 1.


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## Notw

feels like cork mainly, maybe a little bit smoother than cork. I used titebond II


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## EarlS

I have crubber and it isn't hard and shiny. It's almost crumbly in texture.l but it grips really well. I don't think there is a front or back to it. I used the clear gorilla glue to adhere it to the leg vise and front edge. I slid a piece of thin uhmw between the pieces and tightened the clamp down to keep from gluing them together. Did something similar with the end vise and used regular clamps to hold the crubber on the bench dog front faces.


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## Lazyman

No problems with crubber for me either. Not hard and slippery. BTW, you might just check with the autoparts store and see if they have cork-rubber gasket material. It is basically the same thing and the last time I checked it was much cheaper than ordering it from BC or Hovarter.


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## EricFai

Lazyman said:


> No problems with crubber for me either. Not hard and slippery. BTW, you might just check with the autoparts store and see if they have cork-rubber gasket material. It is basically the same thing and the last time I checked it was much cheaper than ordering it from BC or Hovarter.


I have also heard that the Schami cloths (automotive drying cloths) work well too, never tried them.


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## Lazyman

builtinbkyn said:


> Nathan, this is my version of a worktop bench/moxon vise. I also didn't like how the kits worked so I used CNC components. I didn't want the screws taking out my privates when I wasn't paying attention lol. The link to the blog build is on the project page. You can probably find thicker lead screws is you wanted something more robust.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Inexpensive Moxon Vise
> 
> 
> builtinbkyn's Project
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.lumberjocks.com


Thanks Bill, I will check it out.


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## Lazyman

builtinbkyn said:


> For someone wanting to make a moxon vise, I think this setup will work well and is much cheaper than the kits available. The lead screws I used (8mm with a 2mm pitch) can flex a bit when the jaw is extended out far if something like a box is needed to be held. However it's not really an issue once the jaw is tightened. But the screws at the link are 12mm (1/2") and I doubt they will flex much if at all. That kit also comes with bearing blocks to support the free end of the screw. Heck I may change mine over to these. I don't think I'll even have to bore a larger hole in the hand wheels. It looks like the end is 8mm. I drilled the hand wheels to accept set screws and they work perfectly.



That lead screw is a ball screw which I wonder if it would hold as well as well as one with an acme thread. I am having a hard time finding a 250MM x 12mm acme lead screw on Amazon that would end up much, if any cheaper than the WoodRiver kit.


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## HokieKen

Yes Nathan. A ballscrew will hold as well as an Acme screw. Similar resistance to slip and backlash plus you can generate more clamping force with the same torque because of less friction.


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## builtinbkyn

Lazyman said:


> That lead screw is a ball screw which I wonder if it would hold as well as well as one with an acme thread. I am having a hard time finding a 250MM x 12mm acme lead screw on Amazon that would end up much, if any cheaper than the WoodRiver kit.


Nathan, Kenney is right. I've had no issues with clamping force being retained. IDK if the Woodriver kit was available when I made my vise. It's definitely more reasonable. I just didn't want to pay the price of the Benchcrafted kit and looked at options. I guess you can't go wrong either way and get a solid working vise, but if you're looking for Acme screws, you can order them in specific lengths and diameters here which I just found in a search. They have sleeves and nuts to match too. Probably the way to go for your vise.


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## Lazyman

Good to know. If I am going to buy a kit, I figure that I will likely go with the WR one, especially if I may pin the hand wheel to the screw. A benefit of the BC kit tends to be how well things spin but if I am going to negate that by pinning the wheel, no reason to spend the extra dough. Since the retaining nuts that come with the kit are really intended for securing it and not for smooth action, I would not expect them to be as precisely machined, though that is just a guess. I suppose that the lead screw will have pretty nice action too.


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## EricFai

Nathan, I have not had any issues with the WR Kit, did not pin the wheel and the screw does not stick out that much. The wheels spin great, almost 2 turns when I spin the wheel.


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## Sylvain

The advantage of the second tool well Paul Sellers style is that its depth is not limited by the workbench-top thickness. In other words one can make it as deep as one wants.


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## Lazyman

I have been thinking about adding on a tray like Sellers does on his benches. I would make it removable. The way he attached it, it isn't removable. It is just attached with screws but he glues a divider over the screws. This is his video for the add on tray:


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## bandit571

Well...this doesn't happen just any day...








Almost empty?


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## EarlS

The bolt-on tool well idea has me thinking that I might want to do something like that and design it so it can be a solid top for those times when I need a wider bench. Since my bench is up against the wall I'm definitely wishing it was wider. Maybe not quite as wide as Bruiser, but 6"-8" would be helpful.


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## Lazyman

You will want a way to level it so that if you are doing a a large glue up you have a perfectly flat surface. Another option for a larger top is a fold up extension like those added to table saws for outfeed support? That way, it doesn't take up space when you don't need it.


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## Lazyman

bandit571 said:


> Well...this doesn't happen just any day...
> View attachment 3858081
> 
> Almost empty?


Bandit, what is that thing that looks like a Barbie doll sized motorcycle helmet hiding with your chisels?


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## builtinbkyn

Lazyman said:


> Bandit, what is that thing that looks like a Barbie doll sized motorcycle helmet hiding with your chisels?


My guess is a pencil sharpener 🤔


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## KentInOttawa

builtinbkyn said:


> My guess is a pencil sharpener 🤔


That was my first guess too, but IIRC Bandit has a handraulic Boston sharpener.


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## HokieKen

Measuring tape.


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## bandit571

The Blue helmet? Is a battery powered Pencil sharpener...


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## builtinbkyn

OK Nathan what did I win? lol


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## KentInOttawa

KentInOttawa said:


> That was my first guess too, but IIRC Bandit has a handraulic Boston sharpener.





bandit571 said:


> The Blue helmet? Is a battery powered Pencil sharpener...


So, we were both right.


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## bandit571

The Boston has replaced the Made in China Blue Orb....Boston gives a sharper point. 

Bench was put to work, this morning..after all, it IS a workbench..








Jointer plane at work....then check the fit for gaps..








And..








None found...that "^" is to align the 3 panels of a top...








Needed to get them ready to glue up into a panel...
End vise was put to work, too...








Cleaning up edges for the bread board ends...








I'm currently waiting on glue to dry..








Clamps & Cauls...


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## Lazyman

builtinbkyn said:


> OK Nathan what did I win? lol


I am a little disappointed that Bandit is not playing with biker chic Barbie while he waits for glue to dry.


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## Notw

Lazyman said:


> I am a little disappointed that Bandit is not playing with biker chic Barbie while he waits for glue to dry.


No one said he wasn't, that object just happened to not be a helmet, Bandit is much better at hiding his Barbies


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## KelleyCrafts

Lazyman said:


> I went looking for your Moxon vise project but realized you didn't post one so had to hunt down a picture. I just noticed that the chop is offset from the top? When you have chance, can you post a picture from the side? I am trying to decide how I am going to make the bench top bench. I like the flat surface behind the vise rather than the traditional Moxon with just the vise.
> 
> Also, for anyone else who has built a Moxon using the Benchcrafted or Wood River kits, any regrets about having the screw stick out like that. I saw one Youtube example where they pinned the wheel to the screw so that the screw moves rather than just the hand wheel, more like a traditional vise and I was thinking about doing that.



I'll take more pics later tonight when I get to the shop. As for the screws sticking out, It would be an absolute no go on my bench. The Moon doesn't matter because I slide it onto the bench and put it away when not in use so the screws don't matter at all to me.


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## Lazyman

For anyone thinking about the making a Moxon Vise soon, the November Woodcraft flyer that just came in the mail shows that Wood River hardware is going to be $30 off ($80) next month.


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## BurlyBob

Looks like I have to put the bench on the back burner for a few weeks. I've got to get Christmas presents done.


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## bandit571

Hmmm...wondering IF WalMart still sells weight-lifting stuff....as a bar bell rod and it's weight locks have been used by some for the hardware a Moxxon Vise uses....including the spoked wheels to tighten/loosen things. And, the threads are/were ACME threads......Hmmmm?


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## revrok

Mine is 5 lb iron weight plates (2.99 at WM back then) welded to 1"x8tpi threaded rod. Worked pretty well


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## kstocks

I'm working on the tool tray for my Moravian workbench now and can't shake the idea of making the tool tray a flippable box so that I could use the full width of the bench for larger projects. However I can't figure out how I would attached it to the bench. I was thinking possibly putting holes on both sides that fit into dowels in the top (similar to how Will Myers attaches the tool tray) or some sort of cleat system, but this would likely stick out when the tray is flipped. Has anyone attempted this or have any ideas?


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## builtinbkyn

kstocks said:


> I'm working on the tool tray for my Moravian workbench now and can't shake the idea of making the tool tray a flippable box so that I could use the full width of the bench for larger projects. However I can't figure out how I would attached it to the bench. I was thinking possibly putting holes on both sides that fit into dowels in the top (similar to how Will Myers attaches the tool tray) or some sort of cleat system, but this would likely stick out when the tray is flipped. Has anyone attempted this or have any ideas?


Maybe attach the tray with three or four stout threaded knobs with threaded inserts in the side of the bench top. First install with the tray flipped upside down to ensure you're flush with the bench top. The tray, when used as a tray, doesn't have to be flush and maybe just a little shy of the bench top.

OK found a decent pic. Instead of lag bolts where the blocks are, use threaded knobs into inserts.


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## HokieKen

I put cleats in the opening for my tool tray. I just have plywood resting on the cleats. The plan was to make them boxes so I could flip them over like you suggest. But, so far, I’ve never found it necessary. If/when I do, I’ll finish it up.


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## John Smith_inFL

Kstocks, Welcome to the forum !!
Personally, I've never understood the "tool tray" part of a bench. For me, it would just fill up with wood chips and dust and assorted tools that are rarely used. (sort of like my junk drawer in the kitchen, I guess).
Having it "flip" is an incredibly fantastic idea !!
If that were my project, I would make a "lid" that would slide through grooves on each side so the contents would stay in the box when it was flipped over.


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## northwoodsman

I don't have a fancy tool bench but if I did I think I wood add a tool tray. I would make a cover, or actually a series of short flush covers so the tops would be flush for assembly or what not, that I could put in place when routing and etc. to keep the debris out. My reason for a tool tray is because I can't bend over when I knock a tool off or drop something to pick it up. Because of spine issues I now kick the tool under the bench and walk across the room to get another. I don't always have duplicates and sometimes it's a small part that I need right away. Most recently what I have done is pull up a cart to set all my tools and parts on. But if I was was starting from scratch... why not add it to the design?


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## John Smith_inFL

After thinking about it, and seeing the suggestions above, I like the idea of just a board that lays on cleats. Sort of like a zero clearance insert on the table saw.


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## Mosquito

That's what I had always intended to do with my tool tray as well, but what... 10 years later? Haven't done it, and only very few occasions have I wished I had. My current bench is not that large, so most things where I wished I had a cover for the tool tray, are likely larger than would really fit even if I did. 

The thing about the tool tray, especially with a smaller bench, is that it really extends the usable space of my bench by a lot. How far from the edge of your bench would you have to set a bench plane, which you won't be using for a few steps, to be confident you won't knock it off the bench moving the things around you're working on? 2", 3", 6"? With my tool tray, I have no reservations of having anything against the wall of it knowing it's 2.75" deep, and I won't be knocking a plane out of it unless I do something really stupid (and then probably deserve it). Same applies for project parts, that fit, as well.

I never quite understand the argument that it's gonna fill up with shavings and sawdust... so? Just sweep it out lol Doesn't your bench get covered too? And the floor? I probably spend less time sweeping out my tool tray than I would getting tools from the till and putting them back through out a project


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## John Smith_inFL

I had 2 4x8 assembly tables on wheels and one real "woodworking bench" with all the bells and whistles. When I retired, all of that went to the new owner. All I have now is my little hobby desk. I'm not a large project guy anymore, so my input really doesn't matter. I just stated that I didn't understand the value of the tool well. Now I do, Thank you.


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## kstocks

Thanks for the welcome! I've been lurking for a while but glad to be posting in this great thread.

Some really interesting ideas here using threaded knobs or a board laying on cleats! On Instagram, Christopher Schwarz actually put a plywood insert into the tool tray of the Moravian workbench that he has at Lost Art Press so that he can use the whole bench surface for chair making. Seems like the cleat idea would be a simpler version of that.

Overall I like the idea of the tool tray - I've been using the bench with a 2x8 behind it where the tool tray will go to try it out and I've found it to be very useful to put down tools temporarily. While I have a tool wall above my bench, I'm not great at putting tools back on it right away.

Regarding the tray filling up with shavings, I've seen a few work benches with a "dust ramp" at the end that make them easy to sweep away with a bench brush. I figured that would be a good solution. User Tom Hitch actually did so on his workbench that he posted about here.


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## Sylvain

The Moravian tool well has only 3 sides. If you make yours with four side (a box) then it is easy to flip it in such a way that it will rest on the two leg-frames. Two dowel going in the long side and in the leg frames will keep the box in place, whether as a well or as an additional surface. Of course to have it flush with the slab, the bottom has to be flush with the bottom of the sides of the tool well, assuming the height of the sides are the same as the slab thickness.

Personally I (try to) mimic Paul Sellers who works mainly in a quick release vise.


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## Bearcontrare

The tool well debate is one of them wherein either one is all FOR it, or all AGAINST it. 
It's just whatever works for YOU personally.
I had one for eight months and in my case, it became a bigger problem than it was worth to me.
It's good that these things work for so many of you.


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## bandit571

Works for me..


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## Bearcontrare

I CAN say that I DID give using a bench with a tool well a try for about eight months or so. I found that for me, personally, and my work habits, it wasn't a good feature for me to have. 
As I often say, a person's first bench should be built out of whatever is handy. They should use it awhile. Figure out what they do and do not like. Then they can move on to building a "better" bench with the features they want.
The main thing us everyone has to do what works for them.


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## Mosquito

A bench that doesn't work for its owner just turns in to a storage table lol


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## kstocks

This is actually my first workbench. I laminated and planed the top in February and it's been sitting on saw horses for the past 10 months. I put a 2x8 on the far side of the saw horses to act as a tool tray and I have to say, it seems to fit my work style and keeps me less cluttered. So I am planning on building one for the final bench, I just like the idea of a flippable tray if I am working on larger pieces. 

I think the best part of the Moravian workbench is that it's pretty modular - so if I change my mind I can just ditch the tool tray and turn it into a split top!


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## builtinbkyn

Mosquito said:


> A bench that doesn't work for its owner just turns in to a storage table lol


I'm somewhat getting ready to build my forever bench. The one I built back in 2015, sort of a hybrid sudo split top Roubo lol has served it's purpose, but after using it over the last 7 years I realize I need a heavier bench, a wider bench and I think a taller bench. I like the tool storage on the bench that the split top Roubo provides to keep them out of the way while still needing them at hand during a project, but not sure if I'll use the same method. I've seen some interesting tool storage options in some of the benches LJs made, but don't think it will be a well. I'm still debating the vises I want to use so it doesn't become a storage table.  I've had a few hundred BF of hard maple stacked in the garage the last 3 years for this purpose, that keeps calling me to get it done. I also have about 150BF of black walnut that's been stickered for about the same length of time I want to used for parts of the build.

Actually I'd be interested to hear why others chose the vise types they did. I know it's easy to get hooked on the visual appeal of some of the hardware like the Benchcrafted vise components. I wonder if anyone that's chosen a leg vise wished they went a different direction after using it over time?


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## theoldfart

Bill, I went with an old school leg vise. Wooden screw, thick chop but added a CrissCross to avoid dealing with reaching over to adjust a pin. It’s been several years and still very happy with my choice.


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## Mosquito

I went with a leg vise because it was 1.) Easy to make 2.) has good clamping leverage 3.) Works well for edge jointing boards. I used a wooden screw with a wooden nut for my parallel guide, instead of the more traditional pin. 
I also went with a wagon vise for the other end as it was also easy to make at the time, and I wanted to use it for clamping boards between dogs. I also didn't want the screw to move in and out of the bench as I used it.

I've been very happy with both for the past ~10 years


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## CL810

I went with a leg vise and criss-cross and I'm very happy with it. I wish I had gone with a wagon vise instead of an end vise.









Roubo Bench with Criss Cross Leg Vise


CL810's Project




www.lumberjocks.com


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## Lazyman

I love the wagon vise on mine. I too went with a crisscross on the leg vise but I seriously considered an Ancora Yacht Service chain vise mechanism, mostly because I thought it was cool. It would be a good retrofit for a traditional peg system.


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## MikeJ70

It's been awfully quiet in here. Now that hunting season is over and the holidays have past, I am finally finding time to get back in the shop. My bench is now 99.99% complete. I'm having issues with the Benchcrafted tail vise binding so I need to make some tweaks, but other than that, it is finished. I was hoping to take some pics this weekend that I could share, but I need to do some major cleaning to make room so I can get some good shots and just ran out of time. I hope to get some on here by the end of the week.


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## DanKrager

This is what I've recently built and posted elsewhere SOTS I think. Lost this thread in the conversion somehow. 

Anyway, notice that it doesn't touch the floor and it is a good deal more solid than the previous module holding an Emmert seen on floor behind. It holds much better and I'm pretty stoked about its performance. 

I'm carving an acanthus leaf swirl to apply to the front for a touch of class.
DanK


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