# French Cleat: Plywood or Hardwood?



## K7TXA (Aug 16, 2021)

Hi all - I'm building a new workshop in my garage and it'll include a bunch of DIY cabinets, based on plans I got from Brad at BuildThisFixThat. Not really super pro-grade, but sufficient for my workshop. I've already built a pair of wall-mount cabinets and am at the point of actually mounting them.

The studs in my garage walls are not at nice 16" centers. And even if they were, I still like the idea of using French Cleats to mount the cabinets, for the sake of being able to re-position them at a later time.

Since the cabinets are fairly heavy I thought I'd go with 8" wide material on 45 degree angle. That would give me a pretty wide section to bolt to the wall and a matching piece to screw into the back of the cabinet.

My question is - is there any advantage to using 3/4" plywood as opposed to something like poplar to make the cleats?


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## dbhost (Jul 20, 2009)

Depending on the plywood, it is typicaly constructed with layers of veneer that have crossed grains at 90 degrees, which in theory stabilizes the wood from warpage, and one layer protects the other from tearout along the grain. Not saying that hardwood cleats are bad, or eeven that I am right, just that is how I understand it.


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## newwoodbutcher (Aug 6, 2010)

I'm thinking that quality Baltic Birch would make great cleats. Regular plywood…... not so sure


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## Knockonit (Nov 5, 2017)

big plus on the good quality plywood like the BB, others for me tended to delam under extreme weight


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

I did 3/4" plywood cleats around my entire shop every 7". Overkill but as I keep evolving I have moved everything at least once if not several times. The cleats stay put but what they hold is always on the move. Just used some glue and finish nails as the clamping force and haven't had a failure yet.


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

Either material should work fine for cleats.

I would think that the plywood might delaminate when brought to the point of failure, before the hardwood would fail.
Still, you should never get to that point under standard loads.

For me, it would come down to what I have available and what costs are involved.


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## bugradx2 (May 7, 2018)

plywood will work just fine if it's 3/4", I would maybe buy up a grade so you're not using something with 4 or 5 layers. Baltic Birch is great but may be more than what you'd want to spend. Depends on your budget.


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## K7TXA (Aug 16, 2021)

Well I wish I had some Baltic available to use, but alas, no. One place here in Eagle has it, but they don't deliver and I don't have a vehicle capable of transporting it. I've got a couple sheets of 3/4" ply from Home Depot - not crappy exterior grade - the "Sande" plywood they carry. Its got five thick layers plus the two exterior laminates. It isn't as high quality as the maple or birch plywood, but for the garage cabinets it works fine.

I hate destroying a $70 sheet of plywood just for a couple strips for cleats. But a 10 foot long 8" wide hardwood board won't be chump change, either. Ughhh….


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

PRO-TIP:
If you have a hardwood lumber supplier in your area, you can ask for a VC mill-select option plywood.
It is whatever clearance veneer core (VC) ply they have sitting around that they want to get rid of and you aren't picky about the species of the face veneers.
Usually, hardwood lumber stores are stocking a quality, made in the USA core and not the el-cheapo imported ply cores you see a lot in the big box stores.

This usually can be discounted 30% to 50% off the usual price. YMMV, and call ahead to be sure they have something before you go. 
Sometimes, some really nice stuff is let go for a song because it is too far outside of the mainstream and it's been sitting taking up space for far too long in the warehouse.

We buy such plywood to make toe kick frames for the cabinets we make.
Our vendors love it because they get to clear out the "garbage" and we get a great buy on decent structural plywood when it doesn't matter what the veneer is.


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## newwoodbutcher (Aug 6, 2010)

In Southern California poplar is the least expensive hardwood a 3-4" wide cleat, one on the Wall and one on the cabinet will be plenty strong


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## DavePolaschek (Oct 21, 2016)

I use pine for all my cleats. Usually 1×3 or 1×4. Have never had a problem, and the pine deforms enough that if my 45 is a 44 or a 46, it doesn't seem to matter much.


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## bilyo (May 20, 2015)

> I use pine for all my cleats. Usually 1×3 or 1×4. Have never had a problem, and the pine deforms enough that if my 45 is a 44 or a 46, it doesn't seem to matter much.
> 
> - Dave Polaschek


Like Dave, I have always used southern yellow pine for my cleats and have never had a problem. I have more faith it it than plywood that can de-laminate. Also, if I expect the cabinet to be carrying heavy loads, I like to use 30 deg rather than 45 deg. The edge is stronger and it is no more likely to slip off than the 45. Also, be sure that your studs are even so that when the cleat is fastened to them the cleat stays straight. Otherwise, the two cleats (what do you call the one on the cabinet?) won't fully mesh and you will end up with pressure points.


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## BFBF (Nov 26, 2021)

I don't see how this really matters, unless you are using the cleat for longterm support. A French cleat just holds the cabinet until you can screw the nailers into the wall studs. Cabinets that are hung without cleats have their back panel screwed into the studs, and these back panels or nailers are usually plywood, MDF, or Melamine particle board.


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## K7TXA (Aug 16, 2021)

Yes, it is for long term support. I've seen quite a few setups like this and it is really handy to be able to move different cabinet assemblies from one area to another over time. If you've screwed the cabinet directly to the wall/stud, that's where its gonna stay for a long time. Not what I want in my case.


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## K7TXA (Aug 16, 2021)

I've opted for poplar instead of blasting a sheet of plywood that may or may not de-laminate. Rather than buying a 1×8 poplar board and ripping it with a 45 degree tilt, I opted for two 1×4 boards (cheaper); I can set the blade at 45 degrees and slice off a small edge on each.

Thanks for all the replies!


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## LeeRoyMan (Feb 23, 2019)

Personally, when I do a french cleat, I don't like using 45's. Too pointy at the ends, and they like to get wedged in and stuck when trying to move or slide around. I cut around a 35 deg. cut and then knock off the points.
I do them like this.


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## sansoo22 (May 7, 2019)

This big bastard is using a Home Depot grade birch ply cleat. Been on that wall and mostly full for the last 2 yrs without any issues.

If I was going to do a wall of cleats I would follow LeeRoy's advice. A few things I have using cleats like my cleaning supplies rack are supposed to be able to pop off so I can take them where I need them. The sharp 45s do tend to stick together and are NOT friendly to the fingers if you pick anything up by the cleat.


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## EricFai (Sep 30, 2018)

I used 1×4 pine, cabinets have been hanging for a year now and no issues. I do have to parallel boards for each cabinet mounted, one at the top and one low.

That would s an advantage to use a french cleat, for the movability down the road.


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## K7TXA (Aug 16, 2021)

I've seen/heard several suggestions regarding the 45 degree cleats - most folks say it's best to nip off the sharp edges - makes them safer and easier to slide around.


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## K7TXA (Aug 16, 2021)

Sansoo22 - how wide are the cleat boards you used?


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## bilyo (May 20, 2015)

> Sansoo22 - how wide are the cleat boards you used?
> 
> - K7TXA


For light cabinets, I may use boards only 2" or so with one screw per stud. If I expect the cabinet and contents to be heavy, I use wider boards of 3-4" with two screws per stud. It is really a matter of having a board wide enough to accommodate the size and number of screws you think you need. The screws are the most important structural component in the system.

sorry. Didn't mean to butt in. I just read the question and didn't notice that it was addressed to someone particular.


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## K7TXA (Aug 16, 2021)

Bilyo - no need to apologize - thanks for the reply!


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## crmitchell (Jan 13, 2013)

I built this hanging tool cabinet from Mike Pekovitch's plans about 10 years ago, and it has been moved several times….ugh.

The back is the cleat, allowing the cabinet to fit flush to the wall. Both upper and lower sections are 1/2 plywood, some of the better stuff. The joint is hidden behind the cross member just below the plane till.

There are six 3" screws holding the lower section to the wall. I also popped a couple of 3" screws into the studs in the top section, just in case.

I have no idea what this thing weighs loaded, but with 7/8" maple structure, it is seriously heavy empty, requiring 2 people to get it up onto the cleat. It has never moved, even through a couple of minor earthquakes.

https://https://www.lumberjocks.com/projects/260962


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## K7TXA (Aug 16, 2021)

Carey - thanks - that is a serious cabinet - very, very nice. BTW - your URL has an extra https:// in the front…


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## sansoo22 (May 7, 2019)

> Sansoo22 - how wide are the cleat boards you used?
> 
> - K7TXA


Sorry just saw your question. The cleats are roughly 4" or whatever 8" minus saw kerf divided by 2 gets you. In the bottom shelf I have a few 3" pan heads screwed thru to the studs behind the rack.


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