# Attention all dust collection gurus - advice? Comments?



## wood_fox (May 30, 2011)

Hey All - I'm trying to figure out the best routing for my ductwork for my shop.










It's 2 stalls of a 3 car garage, so not huge, but I've got a clearvue cyclone arriving any day now. I decided to go big. I am not totally sure on what layout would be best. I've read a few sites, including attempting to wade through Bill Pentz' site, but I don't think I've found the "ideal" layout, and I'm not up for dropping $250 for duct design.

OPTION 1









Option 1 has a Y very close to the DC, where one branch goes to the TS/Jointer drop (y'd at the bottom with a 4" to each tool), one drop for the planer, and the "drop to nowhere" would be a capped Y for perhaps a drum sander in the future. The other leg goes to the bandsaw, and I would likely put a floor sweep next to the BS, and maybe a hood for the lathe. The advantage I see is that I can expand the bandsaw line a little easier than option 2, but I'm wondering if splitting airflow right off the bat like that would kill my CFM to the big dust makers.

OPTION 2









Option 2 has 1 main branch going diagonally across the shop with similar drops to the TS, Jointer, etc, but with 1 Y feeding a longer branch to the bandsaw. The advantage I see is that there is all the airflow going right at the big dust makers, but expansion to the left side of the shop (bandsaw, and possible floor sweep, etc.) would be limited.

And before the comment gets made, I will be running my router table (not pictured) and miter saw (pictured) off my festool vac.

Any thoughts on how to maximize the suck?

Thanks everyone!

-glen


----------



## MattyMattAg (May 4, 2014)

Wish I had some suggestions, but will be watching and reading for advice myself. Trying to figure out my layout as well.

Good luck!!


----------



## bigblockyeti (Sep 9, 2013)

I would keep the runs as straight as possible, especially to the planer much like what is pictured in option 2. The wye going to the tablesaw and jointer looks almost as if it's directing the dust away from the collector, I can't think of why this might be necessary or if it's just a quick representation of where the drop will be but I would recommend against it.


----------



## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

The problem with the wye at the DC isn't probably going to be airflow related, at least not significantly. But it may reduce the separation. I was told by the manufacturer that it was pretty important to have the maximum size duct with as gentle a turn (if absolutely necessary) going into the DC for about 6-7', reduce it after that point. In my case that was 6' of 7", qwhich then necked down to the 6" trunk. It was (I'm told) needed to get the maximum "cyclonic action" (their words) which was important to good separation. Long story to go with that, which I'll skip. Back to your question: if you intend to choke down to 4" at each tool it won't matter, it will work just as well as option 1. 4" ports are only going to allow about 400' CFM. That said, I don't consider myself one of the guru's.


----------



## Grandpa (Jan 28, 2011)

I have a Clearvue 1800. I believe it came with a 6" inlet so I don't see the need to expand to a 7" since that would slow the flow. I ran 6" for a trunk line. Keep it as large as you can as far as you can. Use wye's instead of Tee's and us 45 deg elbows to make the remainder of the turn. Not a guru either.


----------



## shawnmasterson (Jan 24, 2013)

Option 1 is pretty much what I pictured. If you are running 6" line there will not be a problem with the Y. the clearvue has the power. Sizing the pipe down to 4" will choke of the system a little. I would make the ports on the machines 6". on the jointer thats easy. as for the TS if you have 4" to the cabinet, and a 3" to an over arm then it will still flow the same. for the planer I would mod the dust hood for a 6" line right on the machine. The difference you will see in performance is amazing. On a RT I would use a 4" on top and another 4" on bottom. In my own system I have 6" from the machine to the cyclone. I broke my heart to cut a 6" hole in the back of my 70's PM66, but it was worth in. My planer had no dust chute, since I had to fab one up I made it 6". I had a 4" dust right hose hooked up and after I finished sweeping up a large pile of router shavings I pulled the hose off at the 6" blast gate and woosh I heard bunch of remains go shooting through the pipe. I had a stall condition in the pipe caused by choking it down to a 4" hose. On a side note you need to place the DC in a location where it can easily be accessed for ease of emptying. A planer will fill a bin in no time. and if you have never seen an over filled cyclone system, you're in for a treat. If I am planing a batch of 4/4 rough stock to 3/4, I can make 70 gallons of shavings in 30 min or less. I have packed my filters a few times. In the summer months I remove my filters and blow the exhaust out the overhead door. and yes it looks like snow when overfilled. It just blows all over. Because all I could get under mine was a 30 gal barrel I added a 50 gal pre separator. Here is my system.


----------



## woodchuckerNJ (Dec 4, 2013)

I like option 2, much more efficient run.


----------



## MrKnowItAll (May 13, 2014)

Here are some helpful tips:
90 degrees is never good. That's way too hot for collecting dust
6" gets it done way better than 4" 
and, shorter runs are much less tiring

If you decide to spend the money on some expert advice, just send me a pm


----------



## crank49 (Apr 7, 2010)

Branch flows and such make no difference to a system that does not have multiple ports open at the same time. If you are only going to run one machine at a time then you can put a blast gate at each machine and make all the pipe (duct) the same size; bigger the better up to the cyclone inlet size.

If you are going to have several machines running at the same time then the number of ports you can have open at once is depending on the size of the final pipe leading into the collector (cyclone in your case) and the size of the ports that will be open and the distance of the port from the collector.

It is impossible to design an efficient system without knowing the exact location and size of all the equipment connections.


----------



## Blackie_ (Jul 10, 2011)

If putting it outside of the shop is an option then that's they way to go, since I am limited to space in my stand alone I added an addition to the shop that is housing the DC no need for a cyclone or a separator since all dust is sucked outside of the shop.


----------



## wood_fox (May 30, 2011)

Wow - thanks for all the advice everyone. The plan is to keep the duct work at 6" all the way up to the tool. I spoke on the phone this morning with an HVAC guy who sells Nordfab, designs small and large shops, and is basically offering free help in designing the layout. A couple things from this conversation that I thought I would put out there for opinions:

1) Go with Option 1, try to keep a main running down the left wall, and then a branch over to the TS/Jointer. This will provide maximum ability to expand and, especially for a shop my size with a 5hp DC, will not affect CFM at the machine

2) He was suggesting 5" drops, and then a 4" taper. The Y's would be 6-6-5 Y's. He started talking fairly technically about the velocity in the pipes and how I would actually have a lower velocity at a 6" pipe and would be below industry standards. I've always read to keep the pipe as big as you can as long as you can. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

I can see the logic in going with option 1, but I'm not totally convinced on #2… Man, this rabbit hole is getting deeper - off to read some more physics of air flow…


----------



## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

What he said is true, you will have a slower velocity in the 6" pipes….but it will still be adequate to carry the debris. Somewhere back in this thread it was indicated you have a CV, and that's what the sketch resembles; if true you don't have to worry about running 6" all the way to the tool.


----------



## ssnvet (Jan 10, 2012)

I'd put the planer on the left wall and move the bench… then you can run the main down the left side of the ceiling and put one T off to pick up the TS and jointer with a drop.

The planer produces the greatest volume and weight of chips…. I don't think you want it at the end of the road.


----------



## English (May 10, 2014)

According to the Clear Vue 1800 fan curve you can get 1000 CFM of air flow with 12" of static loss. With the short runs on both options you will still have much more air flow that needed at each machine. The Clear Vue 1800 can produce 16" of static. With that much static available you can get 500 cfm through a 4" duct and 1500 through a 6" duct. None of your runs as shown in option one and two will produce much more than 5"


----------



## crank49 (Apr 7, 2010)

Did you ever say what the size of your collector was?

Surely, since you said you tried to read the Pentz site, you would know that the larger the pipe the slower the flow. That is like the entire basis for any system design.

In a basic 2/3 garage layout (about 24 ft by 24 ft?) it is not going to be a huge issue because none of the runs are all that long, but I assume your collector will have a 7" inlet and a 6" pipe is already restricting the volume of flow somewhat and increasing the velocity. Reducing to a 5" for vertical runs will do more of the same.
In a marginal system increasing the velocity for vertical runs would help to carry chips and heavy particles up to the main duct trunk line. Don't think your system will be in that category.


----------



## shawnmasterson (Jan 24, 2013)

To all that are concerned about velocity you need to see this, I don't think you will have a problem of velocity with a 6" line.


----------



## wood_fox (May 30, 2011)

Wow - thanks for all the great advice everyone.

crank49 - sorry, I didn't say much beyond it being a clearvue cyclone. It's a 5hp unit with a 6" intake. I did get the sense from the Pentz site about size and velocity, I just didn't fully understand it's implications for chip movement. Or maybe I did but just didn't think it through - regardless, thanks for your help (and everyone else).

It sounds like going with 6 or 5 inch drops would be adequate, especially given the size of the DC and the size of the shop. Maniac Matt - I may just move the planer - you make a good point about it being the major chip maker. I'll see how that will go from a workflow and electrical outlet point of view.

Thanks again everyone - I'll try to remember to post an update once the shop is done and the DC is piped.

-glen


----------



## Manitario (Jul 4, 2010)

Honestly, I'm not a fan of either option. Both involve some degree of backtracking of the ducting, which is hugely inefficient. As well, you've placed your MS at the furthest point from the cyclone; the MS is one of the more difficult tools to get good DC from, I'd put it as close to the cyclone as possible. I have a Clearvue and my MS is on the first drop and gets the highest CFM.

As well, make sure your drops from the main line are wyes rather than T's; T's increase the static pressure more than wyes. Also, I disagree with Nordfab's recommendation to do the drops in 5"; you won't have any problem with velocity in your ducts if you use 6" with the Clearvue. Try and get the 6" as close as possible to the machine before transitioning to 4". I have 11'3 ceilings and run 6" drops to each of my machines with my Clearvue; no problem with chip clogs even with my 20" planer.

Contrary to the advice you got from some other LJ's; my experience with my Clearvue in my 25×40' shop is that you can pretty much place the planer where ever you want and you'll still get good chip collection from it.

If you are going to get quick-fit ducting, consider K+B (Kirk and Blume) duct; it is a bit cheaper than Nordfab and still good quality.


----------



## AandCstyle (Mar 21, 2012)

Of the 2 choices, Option 1 is better because you have a long straight run going into the DC.

At one point in time I was ready to upgrade my 2HP DC to a 3HP model from Oneida. I talked with a tech and even sent my layout to him. He made a number of low cost suggestions most of which I implemented using their products. There was no charge for the consultation and I only spent about $500 for the upgrades. Using his suggestions I didn't need to upgrade to the 3HP unit. My point is that Oneida is a great resource and talking to them may not cost you much if anything.


----------



## Finn (May 26, 2010)

When I made my dust collection system I decided not to run the duct from the dust collector Up 6 feet the the ceiling and then down 6 feet to each unit. 12' of extra duct resistance. I located my equipment along two outside walls and ran the duct along the floor against the wall, out of the way. I made an outfeed table/bench for the table saw and ran the duct under that. Just another approach.


----------



## crank49 (Apr 7, 2010)

Ok, I'm at home now and I can see the images on this post now. They are blocked at the office.
Having the planer at the far end of the run is not necessarily a bad thing if that's where you want the machine and it fits your intended work flow. 
- Just put a drop out box next to the planer. All the chips fall out there and only dust has to be conveyed back to the cyclone. Saves having to empty the collector bin so often. May not be a problem with a Clearview but it is with a bag type collector like mine.
- A dropout box is nothing more than a container, I like to use a 30 gallon metal trash can, with two hose connectors on the lid. One short as practical hose connects to your machine and the other connects to the duct gong back to the collector. when a planer starts throwing off heavy chips they just drop out of the air stream and fall to the bottom of the drop out box. The less laden air stream then continues to the cyclone where the finer dust gets extracted from the flow.


----------



## shawnmasterson (Jan 24, 2013)

Crank Thats a pretty sweet Idea to have a pre separator at the machine. The heavy stay there and the fines go to the DC. I like it.


----------



## crank49 (Apr 7, 2010)

Shawn, I did that for years as an engineer in the foundry business. In a foundry all dust collection has to deal with sand and very abrasive dust so we drop the heavies as soon as possible to save wear and tear on the ducts.


----------



## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

Crank49, BRILLIANT!


----------

