# Dealing with the crazies... GUESSTIMATES WELCOME!



## renners (Apr 9, 2010)

*UPDATE (I'm like Stumpy now!) (no offence Mr Nubs)
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It doesn't look as bad now I've got my head around it, just for a laugh, I invite you all to pitch in your guesstimates. The drawings at post no. 30

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*
I went to look at a job on Saturday which I am 99.999% certain will amount to nothing. 
A very narrow (7"), high (48") and long (78") TV Console for a 40" flat screen, which is to pivot (somehow) to allow the screen to be pushed back against a wall or be pulled out so it's in a corner position so it can be viewed.
I'm sitting here wondering how many hours of my life I'm going to lose working out the logistics of this and preparing a drawing of something that might work (did I mention the access for wiring and wrapping it around and over a gas fire flue? clear the curtains, negotiate the carpet), looking up special hinges, finding something that will do as a jockey wheel etc, doing a costing, only to be told (1) "that's much more expensive than I thought it would be" or (2) "I'm going to put up a wall bracket instead".
I know you have to expect these kind of things, take-the-rough-with-the-smooth and all that, and I've done tricky jobs before, but this time it's just an ask too much, I know it, I can feel it in my water.
So, whinge over. 
The Irish way of dealing with this particular problem (No.1) seems to be to go look at something and then never, ever call back (or say you'll be round on __day and never, ever turn up).
The Irish way of dealing with this particular problem (No.2) would be to just put in a price that is ridiculously expensive as a deterrent.
I don't really agree with either of the above. 
Of course, the honest thing to say would be "I can design this job for you and work out a price which will probably be prohibitively expensive, the design might take 3 hours charged at €20 an hour" but I don't think that will fly either.
So, what do you do?


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## BillWhite (Jul 23, 2007)

The Mississippi way:
Discretion is the better part of valor.
So there….
I'd leave this one alone.
Bill


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## REK (Aug 30, 2009)

When you are there looking at the job you have to be up front and honest. 1) I cannot wrap wires around a gas fire flu, that would be against the local building code. 2) If the placement of the set is wrong, tell them why. 3) Look at the alternatives in the room that might be a better placement. At this point you need to open the conversation up to the alternatives, make recommendations, and incorporate as much of the customer wants as you can. Tell them you can make a detailed plan and estimate, based on the alternative. Also be mind full are the electrical supply and cable wires routed properly, will there be a need for electrical contrasctors or will cable need to be rerouted. People will be positively responsive to a professional assesment.


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## tyskkvinna (Mar 23, 2010)

I have done overly complex (either design and/or customer hassle) bids before and I have learned to charge for the research and proposal. It's just fair. However, this is the part that I do guess on in advance-based off of my general experience, I can reasonably guess that it will take me X hours to come up with a very precise outline of the project. So then, for example, I will tell the customer it will cost $60 to get a full bid on the project which will include all the parts, a full design preview, breakdown of costs, etc. I also then give them a set limit of design changes (within that price) - let's say 2 minor revisions. If they want something totally different, we have to re-approach and it will cost more.

If the customer is willing to pay several hundred dollars for whatever they're getting, they should be okay with this. If they're not sold on using you and are price shopping, it weeds them out before you bother with the headache.


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## Gene01 (Jan 5, 2009)

tyskkvinna hit the nail on the head.


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## Dal300 (Aug 4, 2011)

Back when I was doing remodeling I would give free estimates. They were worth what the client paid for them. If the client hired my services I would provide a full, detailed drawing and a breakdown of the parts and processes needed.
It always bothered me when I started out to do a lot of work on an estimate only to have the client give the job to someone else and when I would get a chance to look at the finished product, they had used the plans and drawings I had worked for hours on but got no compensation for.

Providing a high estimate and a general idea of the work and plan free weeds out a lot of the price shoppers in a hurry.


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

The way that i have dealt with situations simliar to this is to talk to your client and explaain to them that its a fairly complex project that will require a number of time consuming steps. Explain the flue issue, the hardware issues to make it swivel, and a few of the other headaches. It helps if you are with them and can show them exactly what your talkin about. Then …. "if this is something your serious about, i certainly would like to have the project,i would love to give you something amazing, but the steps required to do this will take roughly "x" amount of hours to just plan. Being a one man show (or whatever that case may be), if i spend 4 days working on all the details and i dont get the job, im eatin hot dogs for 2 weeks (or spam, or whatever else sucks). Still interested?"

That schpiel has helped me out a bunch.


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## rance (Sep 30, 2009)

+1 to what Lis said.


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## Gatorjim (May 12, 2012)

This brought back a memory of a job I put a bid in for a small remodle job at a church. The pastor asked me if the bid included labor I told him that it did. He supprised be by saying that they were hoping I would donate the labor. I didnt get that job but another time I put a bid in for a deck that I didnt want to do at all. I only bidded on it because they were a friend of my x-inlaws. I figured the job and doubled it figureing that would kill it but nope I got the job and got paid to and they were thrilled.


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## TedW (May 6, 2012)

but I don't think that will fly either.

Whether you don't think it will fly or not, if it's the right way to handle the situation, then that's what you should do. There can be only one of 2 results… A) you're right, it doesn't fly and you are off the hook from a job that you would undoubtedly regret getting involved with, or B) the customer surprises you and doesn't even flinch when they give you the go ahead.

You gotta be professional, man…. impress them with your confidence and wisdom, earned through many years of experience. They are not just paying for a tv stand, they are paying for the service of professional. Stand up and deliver, and charge a professional fee. If they turn you down, it's they're loss… on to the next customer… somebody who can appreciate your professionalism. Attitude makes the difference.


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## TedW (May 6, 2012)

And if they say you cost too much, raise your prices. ;-)


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## bruc101 (Sep 13, 2008)

I had on occasion done what Dallas was doing by giving the client the plans. After I got bitten a couple of times I stopped. If I get asked to design a kitchen or anything wood I get a deposit worth my time up front. Non refundable.

I'll then call them into my office when I have everything completed and let them approve or make changes to their design. If they write me a down payment check then I'll plot them off a set of plans of their design and will take their design payment off the final price. I let them look at their design on a computer first. If I go to their home they can see it on a laptop but no paper designs are with me.

If they decide to have someone else do the work for them then I still have my money for the time spent designing their project.


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## lumberjacques (Mar 27, 2009)

course, i tell the prospect that if they can arrange for my rent to be free, i can arrange for their project to be free….
my best approach to "weed em out" is "i'll charge you $75 to go meet you, talk, and give you a bugetary price amount". if i get the job, i'll credit you the $75. 
when i give a budgetary price, it includes making detailed plans, estimate, etc as well as the cost for making the detailed plans, estimate, etc.
if they are still willing at that point, i know that they are serious.

jacques


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## TedW (May 6, 2012)

One thing you want to avoid is making it confrontational, especially since it's not. Don't tell them stuff like you have bills to pay too or your time costs money or any other ways of justifying your prices. If they respect you as a professional, there is no question about you charging for your services - it's expected.

I look at what Jacques says (nothing personal Jacques, just being honest) as coming off cocky - i.e. confrontational. Many professional services charge a fee for estimates, like $60 or $75.. just a token amount. This is to pay for the time it takes to visit them and discuss the plan. They receive a professionally written receipt for that fee, which will be deducted from the total cost of the project, if they hire you to do it. Don't tell them you charge for your time, unless they ask. If you do, then you are already trying to justify getting paid for your time, which you should never have to do. Act professional, be professional, and charge professional rates for the professional service you provide. If you act unprofessional, the customer will treat you accordingly, as they should.


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## Remedyman (May 20, 2012)

After 10 years of remodeling when I was younger, I was amazed at how many jobs you could get by doubling or even tripling your rate. To many times I have seen people estimate a job fairly, say, I am not interested in this job, tack on 25+% and then get the job anyways.

Kind of interesting how it works out. I agree with everyone else. Be honest, be up front, and tell them that it is going to take you hours to get a real estimate and either they pay for that service, or you guestimate and when you start to go over budget they either suck it up then, or end up with a half finished project.


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## skywalker01 (May 19, 2009)

I bid projects all the time. It seems so simple to me that you can just say to them after the've explained what they want to do that you think it is going to be at LEAST this (Enter really rough figure) much. If they immediately reel back and try to get the price to half that then you know you aren't ever going to be in a good situation with them. If they don't flinch and immediately say okay lets do this then you know you've under bid them and you can work with them to get it done. If they seem on the fence then you've probably hit their budget right on the nose. It takes practice and a keen eye to not get roped into a deal you didn't want to be in the first place unless it pays you well for your amazing experience and vast knowledge of custom furniture or fittings. You are well worth it and most people will not think so! Bidding is like that. The customer assumes that you really need the job and will try to get to your bottom most figure. OR, they had a figure in mind when they came to you and you just arent' any where close to that. In which case you have to be willing to just walk away and move on to the next bid. The problem really arises when this is the only bid you think you will get in months and you have to at least make some money for the work so you can survive. Throw that feeling in the dumpster! You would rather live under a bridge than sell your valued work to a customer that does not appreciate you. If it's what you do for a living then you have to make enough to live and should make more than that so you can live comfortably and stress free like they are! Worrying about how the tv stand is going to be constructed. As far as being professional, Yes be professional, but get paid for the work that you put out. So many business go under or suffer for VERY long amounts of time, going nowhere, because they want to be professional. You HAVE to make money to survive and if you are a startup or just feel like you are being cheated out of lots of your time then charge the consultation fees. It is your right and you deserve it. All this being said you will never make it far in your business if you don't know what you are doing, suck at what you do, are a bad money manager, or just plain suck at customer service and can't get along with people in general. running a successful business at any level is very difficult and I don't mean to make it seem easy. You will work your but off and sometimes scrape by to put $100 a month into a savings account. But when you get to 60 years old you will be in a better place than all the others that did not know what they are doing and managed their assests badly.
rant over


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## shopdog (Nov 9, 2008)

You already lost the job in your own mind…a 99.999% certainty…so why bother spending a lot of time researching and drawing? To answer your question about how to approach this project, I need to know if you are currently busy, or if you're hungry for work. 
If you're busy, just think about how you can accomplish the job, make a few notes, price the materials…then add a lot of $ due to the degree of difficulty. If you have a good reputation as a cabinet maker, you'll probably get it, unless these clients are looking for the lowest bid. Only you know that.

If you're hungry, then you have to submit the lowest bid. That will take more time to arrive at.
You can simplify it by figuring out all the materials, and +/- the amount of time to build/install. If you're a one man operation, decide what you'd be satisfied with for your labor, and add it to the cost of materials.

Whatever you do, don't give them a detailed drawing and cost breakdown until they agree to sign a contract…unless they pay a design fee.


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## krisrimes (Jun 17, 2011)

If coming up with an accurate bid is holding you back why not charge them to come up with a design and set it up so the the cost of designing the piece is refunded back to them if they give you the job. Kind of a win win.


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## Tennessee (Jul 8, 2011)

My day job as a sales guy for a mechanical contractor, we bid all the time. But if a company asks for what we term "value engineering", in other words designing it for them since they cannot figure out how to do what they want, we charge for that service. 
I would do what jacques says, put in a reasonable design cost, non-refundable, and if they agree to the project and they can have input, have a provision that you will credit them back that amount. It's only fair, since there is also a chance that if you design this and show it to them for approval, they will also shop your price and you do all the design work while someone else cuts the wood for a few dollars less.


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## lumberjacques (Mar 27, 2009)

hey tedw,

that "rent free" thing is a joke…, i do not answer prospects that way! of course there ARE the times when the person i am speaking with is a "joker", and i HAVE used that line in answer to "what, you aren't doing this for free???".
professionalism IS the only way to go. it inspires confidence-if you are professional in your "sales" approach, it is quite likely that you will be the same in your actual work.
speaking of professionalism, i also maintain that attitude when asked if i will "work under the table" ( no paperwork to save the taxes). my professional answer to that is " aren't you afraid that if i am prepared to steal from the government, i am also prepared to steal from you?". that generally puts an end to that request. and makes you look extremely professional.


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

This is why I only work for relatives in the immediate family. I'm known for doing good work so they are always wanting me to do something. I tell them I'll be glad to do it (they buy the materials) for nothing but….at my leisure. After spending 32 years in the construction industry I readily appreciate where Renners is coming from.
Most of the time it's because people don't have a clue what quality is(costs).


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

I like Luke's approach of starting with a high ballpark figure to make sure you're in their budget range.

Charging them for a firm estimate might be fair, but a lot of people are going to be turned off by that idea, even if you offer to credit them that amount if you get the job. On the other hand, you don't want to spend a lot of time on an estimate only to find out the customer had no intention of spending that much money.

I would explain the complexity of the job, and say something like, "Off the top of my head, I think we're probably looking at something in the neighborhood of $XXX. Based on that, would you like me to work up a detailed plan and a firm price, or would like some time to think about it?"

If they still ask you to work up a firm price and you end up not getting the job, I see that as the cost of doing business. But at least you have pre-qualified them to the extent that you know you're not putting in all that time when the top end of their budget is half of what the job will cost.


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## DamnYankee (May 21, 2011)

First off let me say that while I do some bidding making things for others, I am essentially a hobbiest woodworker, I DO NOT do it for a living.

Based on my experiences…on both sides (bidder and customer) BE PROFESSIONAL ALWAYS!

I have had occasion where peopel have asked me to design/bid/build whatever, that I swear thought I needed the work or something. One case in particular they wnted me to build a custome piece for them. When I drew it up and estimated cost and time it came to $750 (materials being close to $400). They were only willing to pay $600, which would have put labor at about $5 per hour. I told them thank you but no thank you. When they asked why not I essentially told them 1) custom work comes with a custom price and that 2) I didn't need the job, and 3) even if I needed the job my work as a craftsman/artisan is worth more than $5/hour. Besides, I'd already spent hours drawing up the plans and figuring out cost of materials. (please not, I am paraphrasing what I said, I was much more professional than this sounds). 
Another way to look at turning down such a job is the impact it has on our fellow woodworkers/cabinet makers/etc…it helps establish a level of expectation.


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## Remedyman (May 20, 2012)

One more anecdote, not from the woodworking industry. In my industry I work with a technology that is very specialized and as such is near the top of the billing rate for contractors. However, there has been an influx of foreign workers who are willing to work for a much lower rate and have really messed up the expectations of the market.

Working for less than you are worth impacts more wallets than just your own. Also, if you know you are worth X and because of bad negotiating skills you are getting paid Y, you might find that you don't get the job done as quickly (reducing your actual hourly rate) or you do worse quality which hurts your reputation and your ability to get the rate you deserve.

While I understand it is every customer's right to try to get something for the lost price possible it is your responsibility to set and maintain realistic expectations. Also, the sooner you set expectations the better it is for everyone involved. But everyone else is pretty much saying the same thing.


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Been there done that…I get caught up doing extensive detailed drawings and then 3D renders showing the completed piece in the space it will live, then they decide they don't want the work done, or usually the case..the bid is too expensive. So I am left with some nice renders that look good on my company Facebook page, that I invested time and energy into….most of the time I don't just do surface deep renders..I design the piece structurally while I am working out the cosmetics. Then you show them the renders, and they love everything but the price…and they just walk away..like it was nothing to do all that work.


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## renners (Apr 9, 2010)

Thanks everyone for your replies, it's made some interesting reading and a welcome distraction from sitting down and drawing this one up.
It's also given me a little time to think about how exactly to approach the design, and I'm much more confident now of a solution.
I was trying to be courteous and professional when discussing this job, and went through a couple of options. 
I'm going to have the bite the bullet and draw it up, like I said I would. If this client doesn't want to go ahead, well, I'll just have to right it off to experience, but not make the same mistake again.

thanks again


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

I would skip the drawing things up piece, and just imagine it as a giant PIA job and come in with a price you know you can live with (not out of sight but you KNOW you won't lose on it by taking it).

If they are good with the price, then come with drawings/sketches or what you have in mind.

If they go the bracket route - you won't have lost anything trying to be too detailed and have it all worked out ahead of time for nothing.

My approach would be along the line of "I understand what you want to accomplish, but to do this right, and not have danger of the piece racking/falling and be structurally sound. It will cost about X to really do it correctly"

This puts you in their mind as looking out for their safety, but also getting a good feel for what their expectations are in pricing.


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## TedW (May 6, 2012)

In my humble opinion, I would follow through with this one as promised, knowing they probably won't go for it (but they might, ya never know) and call it a learning experience. In the end you will know you did the right thing. Just don't get caught up in working for free. The next time a situation like this arises, you will come in with a better understanding of how to approach it.

I too have gained some new perspectives reading this thread. I'm glad you brought it up.


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## renners (Apr 9, 2010)

That's 110 minutes of my life I'll never get back.

Guesstimates welcome!


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## reedwood (Jan 27, 2011)

That is one ugly cabinet design…. sorry to say.

Terrible idea with the TV sitting on a round, rolling base….The client's idea?

Most of the time the client never moves the TV after awhile…. Talk em out of it.

Better to center the flat screen on swinging arm wall mount, floating above a 28 -32" tall cabinet.

Where are the L/R speakers located? Where is the stereo/DVD going?

What are you putting inside a 7" cabinet? Why is it only 7" deep?.... because of the wall offset? Hmmmm.

What if you made an open 40" center cabinet, 30" tall x 12 -14" deep (to hold components) and 2 smaller cabinets with doors on either side, about 18" wide, set back to 7- 10" deep. That would move the TV a little closer to center of room and help with the surround effect. It would certainly look better.

I would be interested to hear other opinions about the 1st draft design.

You're in too deep my friend. Gotta see this through!

P.S. - In 36 yrs. I have Never charged up front for an estimate. If you come up with the right design and sell it, the money will come.


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## renners (Apr 9, 2010)

@Mark
Thanks for your honest appraisal.
Yes, horrendous I know, but 'give 'em what they want' is my motto. 'Form follows function' is the other one (I always thought that was attributed to Bauhaus but it's origins are from an American architect).

There are too many restrictions to do much else with this - and convinced as I am that I'm just wasting my time, I'm not making any changes. 
It's only a small room, the tv's in the corner, the walls are plasterboard and she don't want a bracket, it can't come out past the chimney breast, it's got to cover up a flue that vents to an outside wall. She doesn't want modern either. No. No. No. Oh, and she wants it high with doors on it. I think I've answered the brief.
I knew this was bad idea.


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## bent (May 9, 2008)

i think mark nailed it with his critique. it's just too impractical.

as for a guestimate on this piece, friend/family 500, stranger 800, this piece as shown 1500(just to get out of doing it).


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## renners (Apr 9, 2010)

If this job does go ahead, I will take a photo and post it in Loren's "Really Ugly Furniture" thread.


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## tyskkvinna (Mar 23, 2010)

I have to admit I find myself often conflicted between "give them what they want" and "give them what they don't KNOW they want yet".

Let's just say I've made some ugly things for cash before.

Good luck on this project! I'm glad to see it may not actually be a nightmare (like it sounded it would be initially)


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Ugly is in the eye of the beholder…We once made a very large set of 8 panel solid mahogany doors with arched tops for a garden entrance, with a matching mahogany door frame….once we finished them the customer promptly had his contractor paint them flat white…


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

That should float the customer's boat, charge accordingly, and it looks like a winning situation.

I don't think it's too displeasing to the eye given the parameters involved.


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## Bill729 (Dec 18, 2009)

That's 110 minutes of my life I'll never get back.

Guesstimates welcome!

I am not an expert, but (if I couldn't find a suitable track) I would put the TV on a "Lazy Susan" based stand and be done with it. Yes, I guess it might take a little more room. It that is bothersome then throw a sheet over it! ; )

Cheers,
Bill


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## ITnerd (Apr 14, 2011)

Renners, I like your solution given thier parameters. Its clearly a custom install, has a bit of 'transformer-osity' to it with the swingout TV platform, and uses some dead space in a small home.

In terms of audio, If the out position is the only one for TV watching, I would put the center channel in the round section, and two small satellites in the ceiling - basically above where the TV corners are located in the out position. I would guess a person who would consider this solution is not your audiophile/videophile type, anyways. They would probably be happy with a speaker bar.

Nice job thinking outside the box and trying to please a tough client - regardless of the industry, we've all been there.


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