# heating a workshop



## Pabs (Dec 10, 2008)

my workshop (20 by 24) is an attached garage… and is not heated at the moment.
looking at different options… I have my old construction heater from my previous shop (you know the small square box, element in the back and a fan in front of it). works well enough but was wondering if that's an efficient way to heat a shop?

I will only really heat the place when I go in there to work at night and when I'm gluing a piece I'll leave the heat on overnight…other than that it would go unheated

how do you guys heat your shops? what's the most efficient in terms of power usage, has to be safe for a dusty workshop too

thanks in advance!


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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

We dont know where you are Pabs?


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## TheDane (May 15, 2008)

I have a Fahrenheat 5000 Watt Unit Heater (review at: http://lumberjocks.com/reviews/1161 ) ... it does a great job.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

I've heard GREAT things about the Modine Hot Dawg

95% sure this is what my brother uses in HIS 3-car garage/shop, with … about 18' ceilings. Works beautifully.


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## Maggiepic (Aug 26, 2010)

You may want to call a few local heating contractors and pick their brains. Maybe one of them will have some used unit they would give you a deal on. Different locals, building type, # of windows & doors, utility availability, ceiling height, insulation values, etc. all all factors to consider when designing a system to work as you would like. Such as recovery time when a garage door is opened, warm up time after a few days shut down, or if you have items that need freeze protection during shut downs. Give some more specifics and see what LJs can suggest.


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## Pabs (Dec 10, 2008)

I'm in New Brunswick Canada….so winters get cold enough!


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## dbhost (Jul 20, 2009)

Not to hammer on an old subject now, but no matter how much heat you throw at a space, if it leaks air and gains / loses heat, you are going to spend a fortune on heating / cooling it. You REALLY need to stop the drafts and insulate that space. Without doing that you might as well just put a fire pit in and burn cash to heat your shop.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

To *dbhost*'s point….

Yesterday, I spent 45 minutes putting Prodex insulation on my garage door.

The door faces South. When I started, the sun on the door made it HOT, where I stood.

When I finished, the air behind the newly insulated door was COOL (no. The clouds had not come in!).

So … I couldn't agree more, AND … I like the Prodex. Verrrrry easy intallation.


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## Manitario (Jul 4, 2010)

I live in Thunder Bay and I'm hoping to get by with a 4800W heater this winter for my 21×13 garage; the walls are uninsulated but the ceiling and garage door are insulated. So far it has done a good job keeping the space toasty when it has been dipping below zero at night, but I'm not holding out hope for when it goes down to -30….


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## dbhost (Jul 20, 2009)

I have both my garage doors done with 2 layers of Rmax 3/4" with reflective sides in and out so that it is shiny side, foam dull side, dull side foam shiny side, and a total of R10. My walls are next I need to get a contractor to do blown in insulation…


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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

I used 6" rock wool insulaltion in my place R-22 floor, walls and ceiling.
I could heat the place with a bic lighter.
Actually, I used an infra red heater (self contained) that draws outside air for ombusiton and expells spent air to the outside. I
have no exposed flame inside the building.

There are probably cheaper ways to do it but none this efficient.


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## Pabs (Dec 10, 2008)

here's more info

ceiling is about 10 feet
1 large window
side steel insulated door (with window)
garage door (insulated) , 17'
walls are insulated (2×6 framing) with pink batt insulation


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## Manitario (Jul 4, 2010)

Here is a great link for a "heat loss" calculator; it takes into consideration the size of the room, insulation, and outside temp and gives you an estimate for the amount of watts of heat you need.
http://www.dimplex.com/customer_support/heat_loss_calculator


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## Maggiepic (Aug 26, 2010)

NBeener…Prodex/Reflectix/etc. are mainly radiant barriers with some (but little) R value. R value varies depending on style choice..single bubble, double bubble, two layer foil, etc. These are great products for refelecting heat in or out. Your use in a, I assume steel, garage door is a great use of that type of insulation. For cold climates insulation with a higher R value would be more energy efficient. 
As dhost said air infiltration is also a major concern. Caulk, seal, canned foam any thing that leaks air would be the shortest path to hold heat in. Foam sheeting is a big bang for the buck too. My ceiling is 1" plystyrene with 8" blown-in cellullose. Heat costs are low.


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## Maggiepic (Aug 26, 2010)

Looks like your in good shape, insulation wise. What ever is cheapest in your area, natural gas or whatever, would be a route to check into as for the style of heater to pursue.

Edit: Ceiling insulated? Most important area.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

*Gary*:

Allegedly, the Prodex has an R-value of 15.67.

Do you know differently ? Not sarcasm. Serious question.

EDIT: Ahhh. In attempting to stop heat loss, horizontally, that R-value DOES drop to 7.00 !


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## Maggiepic (Aug 26, 2010)

Neil…There is a non stop debate in my builder mags in regards to these type products. For a short time in my area builders were putting this under basement slabs for insulation and radon barriers. It quickly came apparent that the floors were still cold. It did not perform, as the manufacters claim, to match 2" polystyrene (Dowfoam, etc.). For a radiant barrier to perform properly it needs at least a 1" space between the foil and the heated surface, in your case your steel of the door. The less the space the lower the performance. Not sure about the whole physics if it but that is what is recommended. Independent studies have shown the actual R value of single bubble with two sided foil to be something like R 1.5. Don't recall actual study values but it is low.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

Thanks, Gary.

I should have taken "manufacturer's claims" with a grain of salt ;-)


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## Maggiepic (Aug 26, 2010)

Neil…for what you needed it for it was a good choice IMHO.

Pabs…sorry for the side track, we will now return to our scheduled programming…


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## MichaelJ (Aug 14, 2009)

I live in Minneapolis, so we have a pretty similar climate I would guess. I did a lot of research into this last year and ended up concluding that for my detached 2 car garage, the best option was an infrared heater. Not the kind you see outside of restaurants for smokers, but an infrared tube heater.

A few things steered me in that direction.

1) More energy efficient-since it heats up the slab and all the objects in the garage which is also very nice
2) Lower gas bills
3) I don't have to worry as much about heat loss when coming in and out of the garage due to hot air escaping like you do with forced air. I also have an open air ceiling, so hot air won't just pool up in the rafters.

Overall, I'm extremely satisfied with the heater. It heats everything in the garage evenly and without any cold zones on the opposite side of the garage. It also heats up the garage pretty fast. My friend says much faster than his Modine, but I don't have anything to compare to since this is my first heater.

Here's the link if you're interested.
http://www.sunstarheaters.com/industrial/SIU.html


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## richgreer (Dec 25, 2009)

FWIW - - When I had a shop in an unheated garage I used 3 strategically placed overhead electric heaters. None of them were super powerful and all 3 were limited in their ability to heat a small portion of the area. I never attempted to warm up the entire workshop - just those areas where I spend most of my time: over the workbench, by the table saw and jointer and by the band saw and router table. It was noticeably colder at the miter saw and drill press but I never spend much time there anyway.


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## sillac (Oct 31, 2010)

Have you considered a portable heat pump, heating and cooling. With all the people on LJs there must be a few that have one. If so I would love the hear how it has worked out for you as I am considering one for my shop.


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## KenFitz (May 21, 2007)

I have a Hot Dawg (Modine)in a similar sized space and live in western Massachusetts. I only run it when I'm in there with about a 30 min warm up period. Mine runs on propane but you can get the natural gas model also. My shop is in an old barn so I insulated real well and my shop is as warm as I would like. The 75000 btu model I have is way more then is needed but I'm planning to expand to the entire first floor but it will still be more then adequate. I was in the shop today working when someone came by to pick up some wood and he thought it was too warm. It was cold, rainy and very damp today so I had it on with the thermostat set to 70. I bought mine on the Internet a few years ago and paid $550 for it which included shipping. Any other info I can provide, let me know.

Ken


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## Pabs (Dec 10, 2008)

hey Michael J
that heater looks nice.. .how much money does a unit like that go for? having a hard time finding info on pricing online.

and regarding the Prodex/Reflectix coverigns… are you guys saying it would a good idea to put on the garage door? read up a bit on them and it seems like they would useful. worried a bit about damaging the foil,,, I'm always using the door to lean things on it


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

*Pabs*:

Gary had some good technical info about the Prodex stuff.

Practically, though, I don't think it would enjoy having much stuff leaned against it.

It *might* be reasonable to put a layer of 1/8" hardboard on the garage-facing side, OVER the Prodex.

Even corrugated, from boxes would help. It would also contribute something to R-value, in theory !

At least you'd minimize the penetration risk.

At some point, though, weight vs. strength of your garage door opener *will* become a factor.

If you don't want to change that leaning habit, maybe EPS/rigid foam board might be more forgiving. Over time, those dents would tend to reduce the R-value (at least in theory. Practically, you might NEVER notice a difference), but ….


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

And …. yeah … Gary felt, and I agree: the Prodex IS a good garage door solution


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## Pabs (Dec 10, 2008)

hey Nbeener

yeah that 1/8" hardboard if a good idea…or could even get fancy and put those pine boards used for wainscoting.. (they are about 1/8" and weight nothing) 
either way I rarely use that garage door… so as long as the motor can lift it…if it's being strained that's not a huge deal…at the rate I use it it would be decades before it failed 
I'll have to check the local stores for products equivalent to Prodex/Reflectix.. not sure they have that product here


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## dbhost (Jul 20, 2009)

Pabs.

FWIW, and to make the first claim that for starters, my shop is drafty as all get out, I am still working on the air leaks. Until that is done, I feel pretty safe using my Mr. Heater Portable Buddy heater. It has a low oxygen shutoff to avoid Carbon Monoxide poisoning, and is a catalytic type heater instead of an open flame heater (although it starts with an open flame). Now mind you I am in S.E. Texas, but I have been running on the same #20 propane cylinder now for 4 years… (Infrequent use of heat).

Due to fuel availability (no natural gas in my neighborhood), once the shop is sealed up, insulated fully, and proper power run, I will likely go back to using my electric oil filled radiator for my heat source. On low I can keep the shop at about 60 now with the garage as drafty as it is, and not run my power bill up more than about $20.00 in Jan / Feb which is when I usually need it (overnight lows in the 20s).

Now if I lived in a colder climate, I would have to go with something a bit more, effective, and would be looking into infra red heat…


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## Bob42 (Jan 9, 2008)

As said, you must keep the drafts out and have decent insulation for any heat to be cost effective. I am going to install this winter radiant panels so I don't have to spent so much heating the air. The radiant can be turned on and within a few minutes you are warm. It can be put on a thermostat and or timer. So you are only heating when you are there or waiting for something to dry. These are great for a woodshop because they are safe with the dust. This is where I am getting mine from, they are very helpful. www.sshcinc.com/enerjoy2.htm. Good luck with you search.


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## Knothead62 (Apr 17, 2010)

Forced air gas heater or infra red heater.


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## JohnGray (Oct 6, 2007)

Modine Hot Dawg - http://www.modine.com/v2portal/page/portal/modine/modineMarketsDefault/modine_com/markets/building_HVAC/market_level_3_content_013.htm

I've had mine (Model HD/HDS 45) for 3 years now heating your size shop and I love it mine is a"sealed unit", it uses outside air for combustion so no sawdust problems. Several other members here use the same heater and I've heard no complaints.


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## Kentuk55 (Sep 21, 2010)

I've got the same one that thedane has… Fahrenheat 5000 Watt (http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_595_595 ) . My shop is 16×30x9. It does a decent job. I have been in my shop last winter when it was near zero (which is not normal here), and was comfortable, but I think the 10000 may be a bit better. Now Northern has a 10000watt 
(http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200316377_200316377) that I like the looks of, but, it cost almost twice as much as the 5000. the 5000cost about $180, and the 10000 costs about $600
anyway, here is a link that may help a bit : http://www2.northerntool.com/heater-buyers-guide.htm
that's my 2-cents worth.


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## Jimthecarver (Jan 14, 2008)

I use a closed flame pellet stove….If they sell them in Canada they give the best bang for your buck. I heat my shop with a pellet heater and it cost maybe $1.50 a day. My days consist of about 6 hours at a time in the shop.
We have 17 to 20 degree days at the coldest.


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## JasonWhite (Mar 4, 2009)

Pellet stove. Works great! Jason


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## JimDaddyO (Dec 20, 2009)

a tip on wood stoves. Get one that is Mobile Home Rated and it will have a kit that takes the combustion air from outdoors, thereby isolating the flame and not using up the oxygen inside.


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## bernwood (Aug 19, 2010)

My workshop is 24 X 24 with 2 1/2 sides under ground. It's located in S central NH (born in Moncton NB and climate is similar). My PERFECT heater (perfect for me) is a wall mounted propane Empire gas unit with no fan option and it works perfect for me. I chose that option because I didn't have to install a chimney and also because it is workshop safe (no flames, fumes… sawdust safe). During the cold season, I run 24 X 7 to keep my tools rust free. I'm retired now so I spend time in my ultimate man cave. This system was installed prior to my retirement and has kept me comfortable for 10 years. I now keep the setting at bottom (50 F) but can very easily remove the thermostat when I will not be there for a few days.

I have no objection to all the other methods. Think about your needs… and do what is best for you!


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## Knothead62 (Apr 17, 2010)

dbhost, is your Mr. Heater infra red or catalytic? My Mr. Heater is IR. Great product, BTW.


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

I have a 24×24 shop in Maine. Well insulated. I'm in my 4th winter with a procom gas heater. It's been great. I know that in some areas of Canada electricity is not as expensive as in the states so you might look in that direction. The Procom heats my shop up to shirt sleave working in about 20 minutes and the shop stays warm for a long time after I shut it off. It's non vented so I wouldn't want to sleep on it but for the shop it's great. It hangs on the wall and looks like a home heater.
I reviewed it here awhile ago on LJ's.


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## nubby (Feb 6, 2009)

I live in Alabama and my shop is an old 16 X 20 storage building (way too small). The building is uninsulated and has a 13" 6" high center roof point with 8" walls. The roof is heavy gauge metal. I use a 5 radiant, non vented, propane heater attached to a tank outside. I seldom (even when it gets in the teens and twenties, which is very rare) have to run the heater on all 5 radiants. In fact. most of the time I end up cutting it off after 30 minutes. I imagine that with proper insulation this type of heater would do one heck of a job for anyone. In fact, you could probably get by with a 3 radiant model.

My problem is the reverse of yours, the summer 100+ weather. Fans only move hot air. Once this summer it was 115 degrees…......I think I need a new insulated shop with A/C.


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## tlr (Sep 27, 2010)

I am in the same situation as pabs, living in upstate NY and dealing with the cold, just finished insulating my space and creating a wall that I can remove part of in the summer for more air flow from end to end. The removable section I am going to use Dow foamboard and putting hardboard on both sides to keep the dents out. I am guessing it shouldn't be too heavy and still do the job of holding the heat in. 
Back to heaters, I have considered everything from infrared to LP RV heaters, the only thing I know is a constant is that I want a direct vent so I am not burning any indoor air. I have been thinking for over a year but now that I am insulated I need to get serious about the heat. 
Bob42 thanks for the info on the radiant panels they would work well in my space and no draw back on combustibles, have you thought about mounting them so you can raise and lower to get them closer to work that needs to dry? What are your space dimensions? Do they give you any electric use compared to other fuel sources?


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## canadianchips (Mar 12, 2010)

Pabs.
Just a TIP: if you are going to attach something on an overhead door. The spring across the top is adjusted according to the weigth of the door. Also the doors with springs hanging on the side are corresponding with the size of door being installed. 
You might consider putting vapor barrier over that window. Seal up all drafts !
It sounds like you only want the place from freezing, letting your glues and finished dry. I use an oil filled electric heater for mine. It is safer when no one is around.


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## Bob42 (Jan 9, 2008)

tlr,
My shop is only a one car garage, about 12×20. With the radiant panels you don't need to lower them. Unless they are so high that it becomes ineffective. The radiant warms the contents of the room not the air, thus that then warms the room. What is also nice is that when finishing a project it doesn't blow dust as do some heaters with a fan. I hope that helps


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## tlr (Sep 27, 2010)

Bob42, what is your ceiling height? I have 9', I have always thought that radiant would be nice as apposed to blowing air all over the place. It sounded from the article that you could lower the panels which may or may not be needed depending on the efficiency of them. I am just starting so I am a bit overly cautious on spending money on anything but tools but know I need to be comfortable to enjoy it all! When do you think you will make the move to the panels? Please keep us updated!


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## Zepe (Dec 17, 2007)

I live in northwestern Washington state and I have a detached 24×24 foot shop that is currently unheated. I do have a propane heater in there that I used last winter. My shop isn't insulated (future project) so it takes a while to get up to temperature. The problem I encountered with the heater is that I get a lot of moisture condensing on things. Some cartons I use for storage are damp to the touch, but I'm not seeing any condensation on cast iron surfaces. As a result I'm not going to use the heater unless it's absolutely necessary.

Last winter while waiting for the shop to warm up I was standing in front of the heater, that was about three feet above the floor, warming my hands. When I turned to get to work I noticed some little white things floating around. The heat had melted the nylon in front of the jacket and ruined it. There was no odor so I didn't notice it Sooooo, I bought a Carhart jacket, beside they're a lot less expensive the a North Face down jacket.

Anyway, when I insulate the shop, I'm planning to use either a pellet stove or a ceiling mounted shop heater that has the propane burners enclosed.

zepe


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

"The problem I encountered with the heater is that I get a lot of moisture condensing on things."

I thought I'd get the same thing but I don't at all. I'm insulated. the only thing that condensed was the windows. I built some small frames and put shrinkable plastic on them and mounted them on the inside. Condensation stopped. My iron stuff doesn't condense. Even when it's 20 below outside and I turn on the heater when the room is almost that temperature. Maybe the insulation helps. I don't know.


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## Zepe (Dec 17, 2007)

I don't know, but I thought it was a bit excessive. I don't know where you're located, but I'm sure the humidity factors in to all this. I remember when I lived in Fairbanks, there was a point where the moisture would virtually freeze out of the air.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

I really like the electric Farenheit 5000. I ordered it from Northern Tool ~280 dollars. 17000 BTU runs on 220.
There is no exposed heater element so no fire danger. It also heats up before the fan starts, so no cold blast, and the fan runs until the heater fins are cooled back down.

Has a thermostat. I have it set to "almost up to low" and it keeps the shop from [email protected]~50 degrees or so, but I also insulated the heck out of the shop and attic space.

The picture is of the heater but not my shop - so you can see how big it is.

Wood burning and pellet stoves work really good, but you might have an insurance issue because they seem to feel that wood working and wood burning aren't allowed to cohabitate. I'm not an insurance guy but check before you drop the $$ on a stove. I wanted to avoid any need to clean any flue or have a CO/CO2 issue so i went electric. But in Kansas, Electricity is not expensive ~ 6 cents/kwh for residential.


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## Bob42 (Jan 9, 2008)

tlr,
I am at 9' also. did you check the enerjoy website? 
http://www.sshcinc.com/enerjoy2.htm. If you call them they are very helpful. I have to run a sub panel first then I can put in the heat. It probably won't be until mid winter. I have to paint the inside of the house and some other things first.


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## tlr (Sep 27, 2010)

Bob, I did check it out and was impressed with what I saw, I even tried to read the study that was done but my eyes and brain started to shut down after all of the scientific data gathering. I think I will call them and start trying to lay out what I can do in my shop. Thanks for the info, If I get a jump on it I will post, but realistically I am going to buy some tools first!


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## StumpyNubs (Sep 25, 2010)

I just heap all of my sawdust in the center of the shop and let it smolder all day.


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## Pabs (Dec 10, 2008)

lots and lots of choices guys! I appreciate all the posts..

for me anything with flames is a no-no.. my space is always too messy…I try to keep things in order but always end up in a mess..so a wood stove would be WAY out of the question for me.. .too risky.
as for propane/natural gas. that too would be an issue at the moment… no natural gas at the moment.. we do have a propane tank for the fire place insert…not sure if I just tap into to that or if I would need a separate tank. if I needed a separate tank , then it would not work for me

@Dave Nesting…funny you posted that.. just a few days ago I was shopping around for in-floor heating for my next bathroom reno and I just mentioned to the guy that I was looking for a heating solution for my workshop and he recommended this unit

http://www.ouellet.com/residential-heating-specs.aspx?i=17

looks to be pretty similar to what you show there…the larger model is a 5000/3750W unit giving out 17060/12795 BTU

that might be enough for what I need.. I can hook this one up to a wall thermostat.. I would likely just get programmable thermostat and have the heater come on a few times a day just to take the chill out and keep things from freezing

I will also, as suggested, seal up any holes, insulate my garage door and make sure my attic space is well insulated too…

thanks again guys for all the info!


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## MichaelJ (Aug 14, 2009)

Pabs,
Sorry for the delayed response. I didn't notice your question until just now. I paid around $750 for my Sunstar heater, but $150 of that was shipping. It costs about $200 more than a forced air type, but the efficiency and cost to run it is supposed to be much lower. That along with the fact that it heats everything evenly in my shop, including the slab was my deciding factor. The seller I purchased from can be found here: http://stores.ebay.com/Climate-Doctors

Mike


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## SouthpawCA (Jul 19, 2009)

Another place to try is NorthernTool.com I get a catalog a few times a year and see they have a number of different types of heaters.


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## Pabs (Dec 10, 2008)

hey guys… 
question regarding the reflextix.. I was home depot and they have this stuff for sale.
http://www.reflectixinc.com/basepage.asp?Page=DIY+Garage+Door&pageIndex=547

how is it installed to the door? tape along the edges? I saw a mention of spray glue… sounds like it would be a mess if I ever had to remove it…
anyone install this particular product?


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

FWIW, I literally cut the panels of Prodex to the ID of each of my panels, and press-fit them in place.

Seems to be working fine.

Since they seem to be equivalent products, you COULD try that, too. My fallback position was simply carpet tape.


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## Pabs (Dec 10, 2008)

hey NBeener

what do you mean by press fit them? we are talking about the garage door right? y panels are pretty flat.. .nothing that could be pressed in… unless I understand you wrong… 2 sided tape would do the trick I guess

or I could use the metalic tape.. leave a 1/4 or 1/2" all around the panel and simply tape the reflectix to the panel… avoid the edges from curling too I suppose


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

Sorry, Pabs.

On my garage door, each "panel" has a rail, above and below it, that forms a lip. I simply gut the Prodex to the exact size of the inside dimensions of the "stiles and rails …" like so:




























The ones that I cut perfectly do NOT move. The ones that I cut slightly less than perfectly … move toward and away from the door slightly, but not enough to let any air get by them.

Does that make sense ?


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## Pabs (Dec 10, 2008)

hey Neil.

makes total sense now! thanks for the pics…

my garage door does not have rails like yours…mainly flat except for the hinges..
I'll just have to use the tape I guess.

I'll post my pics once done


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

Ahhh. I wondered.

The d/s tape should be a no-brainer. Easy, effective, cheap, and no mess. I could see something like the 3M 77 spray adhesive working, but … it wouldn't be my first choice.

Here's to your warm, comfy shop


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