# Motor Controller for Dayton Cyclone Dust Collector



## psient (Jan 25, 2012)

I was hoping someone had experience with designing and building a motor controller for their dust collector. I will probably end up doing this for mine. I'd like to integrate remote control and timing. Anyone have any experience or ideas?

Thanks in advance.


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## BlankMan (Mar 21, 2009)

I have. Did it in industry for a while too. Did my cyclone, band saw, RAS, router table, etc. all with contactors and low voltage 3 wire Start/Stop pushbutton stations which on power failure will not start up when power returns. But there is electrical code to be concerned about and liability. Especially if hard wired. If plugged in and not hard wired maybe code isn't as much an issue but it still needs to be done right. I didn't do wireless remote, like I said low voltage 3 wire Start/Stop stations, just safer in my mind, don't want things starting up because somebody used a cordless phone. I might have schematics someplace have to look, but like I said, liability. You're dealing with electricity, can be dangerous, 120V, 240V, packs a punch. I used to deal with 480V 3 phase and higher. I saw what can happen when things go wrong. It was controlled testing for UL, but I've seen doors blown off enclosures and thick metal buss bar twisted like spaghetti. You have to respect it.


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## BillWhite (Jul 23, 2007)

Blankman, I too, would like to see schematics.
Bill


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## BlankMan (Mar 21, 2009)

I found what I think is the schematic file I was thinking of. Of course it's in proprietary format that only the schematic CAD application can read so I'll have to fire it up tonight and take a look at it. Dated December 2001, wow, it's been that long…


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## ssnvet (Jan 10, 2012)

Jot down the motor name plate data and the blower info. and call up the tech. support line at McMaster-Carr and they should be glad to spec a starter and the correct thermal overload.

They have industrial electrician types on staff that do it all day long….


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## psient (Jan 25, 2012)

Thnks Guys!!! Glad you all had something to advise with. I'll be looking for the information to send along. I am going to go pick it up now.

When I return I'll have more information.


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## BlankMan (Mar 21, 2009)

Bill, had some time so I dug out the schematic, the format is industry standard ladder diagram.


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## mrtoasty (Jan 13, 2011)

Psient,

I use a simple relay with a 120 volt coil and 240 volt, 15 amp contacts. Install the relay in a box and get yourself a rempte control lamp switch. Plug the lamp control switch into a wall outlet and run the wires from it to the relay coil. The lamp switch controls the relay on and off and the remote goes into your pocket of your apron or whatever. You can start and stop from anywhere in the shop.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

I have been in maintenance in furniture plants for 40 years. I have built machines in our machine shop and built the control panels for all of them and have trouble shot the electrical controls in our plants. However, I'm not going to help you because of the liability. I just wanted to say just be careful. I assume that your family lives there. When you mess with electricity your playing with fire. Also know that insurance companies are taking a dim view of all kinds of things that they weren't doing in the passed and are not as easy to get along with as they use to be. Whatever you do my advice is to have a professional electrician work with you on it so that it is up to par and has his stamp of approval on it. You don't want trouble with your insurance company or your local government in case of a fire. And most important of all you don't want to take chances with your family. It's just not worth it. I know first hand what electricity can do.

helluvawreck
https://woodworkingexpo.wordpress.com


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## psient (Jan 25, 2012)

Thnks for the advice all!

Les:

Just to make sure I understand: you are basically using a wireless lamp switch to activate/deactivate the relay. I hopped on line to look for a relay but I don't have the technical knowledge to specify a search for the correct genre of relay.

My specs for the dust collector circuit are:

240 volt 3 PHASE 3hp, I believe the motor is below 15 amps but I don't have the plate in front of me so I'm guessing for now. This particular unit being 3 phase is a challenge. I did find an outfit that makes a wireless 3 phase 240 volt controller applicable to the dayton. However, I like to expand my understanding in all things woodworking so if you wouldn't mind, could you elaborate on how to decipher the spec sheets on those relays I did find in my search. Here's an example:

Square D, 8910DPA43V09, DP Contactor, 208/240VAC, 40A, Definite Purpose, Full Load Amps-Inductive 40, Full Load Amps-Resistive 50, Number of Poles 3, Coil Volts 208/240VAC, 50/60 Hz, Non Reversing, Enclosure Type Open, Height 4.00", Width 2.50'', Depth 3.12", Series C, Standards UL/CSA

Seems like a complete description of the relay. The trouble is I don't have the background to interpret this. Would this relay work?

Anyway thanks for the input. You guys are tops!

Jon


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## psient (Jan 25, 2012)

Helluvawreck:

Thanks for the admonishment. I looked at your site/blog. Nice shop. I can only imagine being that organized and tidy.

Jon


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## psient (Jan 25, 2012)

Blankman:

Wow! This is great! Thank you for sharing with us. I will study this schematic and seek more ability to interpret what it is conveying.

Great help. Thanks again.

Jon


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## Retseih (Aug 14, 2010)

My switch for my dust collector is centrally located so I do not need to do a remote for my dust collector. I am however, trying to automate my blast gates with solenoids and bimba cylinders. Any harm in tapping off the tool switch to trigger a 240 VAC solenoid with a 3 way 2 position actuation? This will actuate a spring return bimba air actuated valve…I'm sure triggering a relay would be a better design, but I'm trying to keep the cost down since I have 6 machines I want to control….seems like I spend way too much time wandering away from machines and forgetting to close blast gates.

Dick


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## BlankMan (Mar 21, 2009)

Jon, I took a quick look at that Square D contactor, good brand, little bit overkill it's good for 40A you could probably save a little money if you found one that was 25A. It's 4 pole so that would would but if you found one that was 3 pole with one NO (Normally open) auxiliary contact that would work too and might be less expensive also.

A lot of contactors are made so that you buy and can add auxiliary contacts to them.

Now how are you going to create 3 phase power, static convertor or rotary converter? That would make a difference on how to wire a control circuit. I can provide a 3 phase schematic if I get some time this weekend and a legend.

This link may be helpful in explaining ladder diagrams.


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## BlankMan (Mar 21, 2009)

Ok my mistake a 8910DPA43V09 is a 3 pole, a 8910DPA44V02 is a 4 pole. If you use a 3 pole you need one NO auxiliary contact for the schematic above or the 8910DPA44V02 4 pole contactor but again you can use a 8910DPA14V02 which is a 25A 4 pole contactor.


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## BlankMan (Mar 21, 2009)

Ok, looks like auxiliary contact modules are available for Square D 8910DPA line of contactors, the is a 1NO-1NC module (one normally open and one normally closed contacts module) and a 2NO module that snap on to the contactor.

So the 8910DPA14V02 contactor would work with either the 1NO-1NC Square D 9999D11 module or the 2NO Square D 9999D20 module.


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## BobM001 (Jan 8, 2012)

Why not just buy a size 0 3 pole motor starter with a 240V coil in a NEMA 1 enclosure. The aux contact for the start/stop PB stations is already there. The o-load heater chart is in the cover along with the wiring schematic.
Size 0 starter specs.

Based on this motor chart a size 0 is plenty.


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## BlankMan (Mar 21, 2009)

Bob, if you want to have remote Start/Stop stations at various machines around the workshop like I do which is what the above schematic is designed to do, it is safer to wire them using low voltage, 24VAC, then with 240VAC to the pushbutton stations. Using low voltage 24VAC for the control circuit is an industry standard.


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## BobM001 (Jan 8, 2012)

Hi Curt, 
"Industry standard"? Since when? I've worked on plenty of complex control systems that 120 VAC was used for start/stop applications with multiple stations. OK, so you use a size 0 with a 120V coil. If you use quality components there is no shock danger. All your control wiring can be run in #16 THHN through small metal flex conduit. Or EMT/PVC if that's your pleasure. It's only pilot duty. Your drawing shown is for single phase. If you use just a contactor, where is the overload protection for the powered device? Especially a 3 phase motor. 
The only advantage to a 24V control circuit is that you can run the control wiring in t-stat or plenum cable if that's your MO. Regardless what you do a NEMA 1 enclosure with a back plate for mounting the starting components will have to be mounted by the DC motor. I suggest DIN rail mounts for components and control terminal strips. If you use 120V control this transformer will do. This fuse block for the primary with .5 amp fuses.

For your off delay this is a good choice. It needs this 8 pin octal base that will snap into the DIN rail. The relay contact to start the DC gets closed on a signal from the start/stop. This signal goes to the "coil" terninals of the relay. (#2, #7). This closes the normally open contacts (#1, #3) and starts the DC motor. Once the "stop" is pushed the coil is de energized. This begins its timing. When the "time out" is complete the relay recycles back to it's start point status with an open contact. This contact will feed the L1 side of the motor starter coil. Should you choose to go with 24 volt control, this relay is what you need. This transformer will supply your control voltage. It has an integral circuit breaker


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## BlankMan (Mar 21, 2009)

Bob, I said low voltage industry standard for control circuits, 120VAC is an industry standard for control circuits and was what we used when I started working at Allen-Bradly back in the 70's but it is not low voltage.

As you stated if you used 120VAC it should be in conduit, protected, it should not be open air and I sure as heck would not want to have to run conduit to all the start/stop pushbutton stations hence 24VAC alleviates having to do that.

If you would have read my posts I stated that I could provide a 3 phase schematic, the OP did not state 3 phase originally, only later, thus I was not aware of the need for overloads either.

Just trying to help the OP out and Bob White wanted to see the schematic too. Your suggestions are what I myself would probably do, but it costs, you have to ask the OP if he's willing to do that, not my call.


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## BobM001 (Jan 8, 2012)

Forget about all that push button start/stop for the DC. All that "low voltage"/24V wiring too. Do it
REMOTE Order this in the 220V version and you can start/stop your DC with a key fob from ANYWHERE in your shop.


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## psient (Jan 25, 2012)

Hey guys, this isn't helping me. I don't get half of what you're spouting. Try addressing your issues point by point with a little interpretation please. I couldn't read the schematic and launching into a technical discussion, while appropriate and on-topic, doesn't aid my cause.

Could both of you start with the basic point of contention. Then move to each issue of support or rejection for your points of emphasis.

It sounds like the circuit is a way of automatically turning-on the dust controller whenever you start a remotely placed machine . . . sort of like what Festool does with their vacuum system; when you start the tool the vacuum simultaneously is activated.

I've had to guess at this cause the electrician's vernacular you are using is totally unfamiliar to me. I'm not trying to squash your back and forth, just trying to follow along. If we were relaxing with a beer I'd be out of the conversation, yes?

Jon


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## BlankMan (Mar 21, 2009)

Hi Jon, it appears Bob has already told you exactly what to do and he's not shy about spending your money. (I'm being sarcastic.)

A little explanation of the circuit above. It does not automatically start the dust collector when a machine starts. What it is is that it allows you to have multiple start/stop pushbutton pairs mounted around the workshop. You can start the dust collector at any one of them and stop it at any one of them don't have to stop it from where you started it. You run a 18 or 20 gauge cable containing 4 wires to each station, don't have to protect it in conduit because it's low voltage just like your doorbell or thermostat for your furnace, and connect two to the stop pushbutton and two to the start pushbutton. The cable is inexpensive and easy to find.

The Stop pushbuttons are Normally Closed, when you press one it breaks the circuit and the dust collector stops. The Start pushbuttons are Normally Open and when you press one it makes the circuit and the dust collector starts. Now normally when you would release the Start pushbutton that would break the circuit and the DC would stop but that's where the contactor Auxiliary Contact labeled M1 in parallel with the Start buttons comes in. It completes and holds the circuit as if you kept pressing one of the Start pushbuttons.

When you press a Stop pushbutton it breaks the circuit, the M1 contactor drops out the M1 Auxiliary Contact opens releasing its hold on the the Start pushbuttons and everything stops. Also if power were to fail the M1 contactor drops out of course so that also releases the Auxiliary Contact's hold and when power is restored the unit will not then start up. That is one of the advantages of this type of control circuit over a mechanical start/stop pushbutton like my jointer has. If it's running when power fails and I don't push stop it will then start up when power is restored. A dangerous situation in my book. That is why all my machines except the jointer are controlled this way and the only reason the jointer isn't is because that is how it came and I'm haven't retrofitted it yet.

Those ladder diagram schematics do look confusing when you are first exposed to them, they were to me, but once you understand them it makes things pretty easy to follow.

Now this may not come across well without graphics but the-| |-thingys are Normally Open contacts. Normally Closed contacts would look something like this-|\|-with the slash crossing the two bars. The circle with the M1 above it denotes the coil for a relay/contactor. So the-| |-thingys with an M1 above them indicate it is a Normally Open contact associated with the M1 coil. When power is applied to the M1 coil the-| |-contact closes making the circuit. If it were a-|\|-Normally Closed contact then when power was applied to the M1 coil the contact would open.

The circles with the Green and Yellow in them are pilot lights, so the Green one is illuminated when there is power to the circuit and the Yellow one illuminates when the contactor is energized and the DC would/should be running.

The open little circles like on either side of a stop pushbutton indicate a terminal on a terminal block. Just a way to show on the schematic that there is a terminal to connect the wire too. Normally it would have a label like a "1" or "A" or what ever so that when you open the enclosure you could find it, but I just didn't bother to do that on the schematic because it was for me. I used the color of the wire as indicated on the schematic so I know which terminal is which.

T1 is a transformer, F1 a fuse.

I know a lot of people like the wireless remotes, I do not, no matter how safe everybody may say they are I just don't want something starting up if I make a cordless phone call…


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## BobM001 (Jan 8, 2012)

Hi Curt,
You and I have "been around" let's say in the world of industrial electrical controls. Jon has not. To try to teach ANSI nomenclature we have to go to the MOST important part of ANY electrical drawing of this nature. The fact that what is seen on the drawing represents the "state" of the circuit with NO POWER APPLIED. I think I now see what Jon wants to do. He wants to have the DC come on when the tool/machine he's running starts. OK. I think I've found a solution. A current sensing switching relay. This will replace ALL of the push buttons of whatever kind. You might find these cheaper at a place that sells HVAC/ furnace parts.

Jon, if you can wire a wall switch, you can do this. This with a 24V power supply will energize a relay that will in turn energize the coil on your dust collector motor starter contactor. When this device senses current, the internal contacts close. When the machine is turned off, the contacts open. Forget about the "off delay". That's perhaps way above your "skill set" .

As for "spending your money", hey, nothing GOOD comes easy or cheap. If you feel that this is above your comfort level of expertise, contact an electrician. Anyone worth his salt will be able to do this fairly cheap. Just ask what wires need to be run from point "A" to "B" and that will perhaps save you some labor cost.


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## BlankMan (Mar 21, 2009)

Hey Bob, yeah I thought about the auto on a long time ago, even considered microswitches on the blast gates but 86'd that idea. My luck one would slide one on it's own when I'm not home or in the middle of the night.  And also you have to go back to the point (one) that was opened to shut it off, the multiple pushbutton stations alleviates that. Be the same as having one on/off switch someplace IMO. These multiple stations makes it really convenient I feel.

And if I were inclined to use a remote wireless one with my luck I'd spend have my time looking for the fob. LOL

And, Jon, no you wouldn't be excluded from the conversation as long as you were buying the beer ;-) but I'd probably be drawing on every available napkin while explaining it all to you..


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## BlankMan (Mar 21, 2009)

Oh and Bob, yeah, sometimes I think I can make something better and cheaper only to land up buying what ever anyway and then all things considered I spent more. Really take that into consideration now when considering buy or make. But if better is the trump card I will still make even if making costs more.

He says after spending the whole day yesterday machining parts to fix the tailstock on my metal lathe because poor casting and then alignment during manufacture machining led to breakout of the casting. Couldn't figure out why it was always hard to loosen it and move it till I finally took it completely apart and the reason was then staring me straight in the face.


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## psient (Jan 25, 2012)

Curt/BlankMan: WOW!!!!!!! That was a great cogent and lucid elaboration on the discussion you guys were having. I've only read it once and already can visualize what you were referring to. Could you please attach a .pdf file of the schematic. That way I can read what you said and look at a print out of the schematic at the same time. It's distracting to bounce back and forth between comment panels on lumberjocks.

If there's no provision to attach a file in a PM I'll send you my email address. I really really appreciate your taking the time to pen-out the discussion of what you and BobM001 were bandying about.

Bob/BobM001: Thanks for the support. I'm learning all the time, just like you guys. No problems with being open to constructive criticism and alerts about the limitations I might posses. I also adhere to the adage of being able to distinguish cheap from less expensive. I don't do cheap but like Curt and yourself, I endorse less expensive.

For instance, I hired an electrician to wire my shop with 1 phase 240 as well as a set up for a Rotary Phase Converter. I had an example to follow when I had to install another series of circuits myself. I needed a little clarification from some friends but was able to either intuit or logically extrapolate what was correct and intelligent and what was not. Please feel free to vet what I did.

If you look at my blog you'll find my first attempt at wiring a panel. I made some errors (e.g. labeling a hot wire as neutral; it should've been red instead of white) but that's because I was following the color scheme from the wiring in the Rotary Phase Converter's factory controller/starter box (T1, 2, and 3) .

Now I need to to start thinking about the dust collector and wiring it. You and Curt are an amazing help. When I mentioned Festool's set up on their vacuum system I was alluding to my inability in deciphering what you guys were talking about. I thank you for sending me the link to the wireless!! What a great tech tool for my shop. Seems like there are many uses for this kind of remote. I also like the idea of having start stop locations. I guess I'll have to decide which goes best with what equipment/application.

I have to start assembling the parts for what you guys are guiding me towards. I just received my grizzly G0634Z planer/jointer on Friday and need that collector system up and running. for now I think I'll just wire a plug and go to my phase converter. This way I can still woodwork while I run the ducting and circuit install.

I've pretty much made the equipment purchases. I still have to acquire a bandsaw. If it's alright with you fellas I'll ask you questions about the dust controller as I go ok?


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## psient (Jan 25, 2012)

Gentlemen:

Is it possible to integrate a timer that will prevent the dust collector from running if I get distracted and leave the shop, forgetting that the dust collector is still on? This is a feature a lot of manufacturers are adding. I guess I'm not the only one who forgets things!!!!! That's code for getting on in years.


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## BlankMan (Mar 21, 2009)

Hi Jon, yeah I can do the PDF I do believe, and include the explanation in it hopefully on one page. Think I'll add a 3 phase version of the schematic too. Might take a day or two.

Knowing that you have a rotary converter, good choice BTW, and not a static one helps. Yes details like that really help when asking for advice. I assume the rotary converter is for the DC? Quite a pricey solution for the DC, might it not been less expense to replace the motor on the DC with a single phase one? Or will the converter be used for more then just the DC?


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## BlankMan (Mar 21, 2009)

As for the timer, yeah but how long is long enough? But the downside in my mind is that it could always shut off when you don't want it to.


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## psient (Jan 25, 2012)

Curt

Thnks abunch!!! No rush as I pointed out, I'll just plug the dust collector into my RPC's outlet for now. Maybe I should wire a start stop box for it right away though, yes? What do you think . . . as the plug unplug would be my only start stop control without a start/stop button.

I have 2 RPCs. One for my Bridgeport mill and one for my Powermatic 14" table saw. The Bridgeport's is 5hp the Powermatic's is a 20 hp. I got a 20hp even thought the table saw is 'only' 7.5 hp as some day I hope to have a CNC vertical machining center in my shop.


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## psient (Jan 25, 2012)

As far as the timer goes, I'm unfamiliar with the actual specs on the DC systems that come with it as an option. I would think 6 hours would be about right. My judgment is there's a minimal risk in unwanted shut off, one I'm not unmindful off but feel is unlikely to manifest.


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## BobM001 (Jan 8, 2012)

Hi Jon,
This video may assist you in your component choices and installation. ;>)

Allen-Bradley>


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