# dirty strop



## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

I am using cereal box cardboard for a strop as has been suggested, I think it is better than leather certainly cheaper, anyway what do you do when a strop gets black thanks Mike


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## JohnDon (Mar 14, 2015)

Buy a new box of cereal?


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> Buy a new box of cereal?
> 
> - JohnDon


But my mom wouldn't buy a new box until I was done with the old one, because she knew i just wanted the prize


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## tvrgeek (Nov 19, 2013)

I have not tried cardboard. Sounds like it would work fine. I have used MDF.


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

the card board is glued to a board and charged with compound. I have a MDF wheel, that works. Same problem what do you do when they get black


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

SMP you can buy a new box of cereal because the old one is finished


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## Phil32 (Aug 31, 2018)

You don't have to replace it because it has gone from green to black. I have used the same piece of cardboard for five or six years. Pay attention to what it does, rather than what it looks like.


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

It not a matter of looks I was wondering if the steel build up was rendering the stop ineffective


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## rad457 (Jun 15, 2013)

I have pieces of wood all over the shop that have green compound on them, when they get some ugly build up I just give them a swipe with a card scrapper to clean em up, then little more new compound an ready to go again!
Only usually use the leather strops for knifes an carving tools.


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

I gave up leather after I spent for the leather, I now use card board and that is hard to scrap without scrapeing away the card board


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## MikeB_UK (Jul 27, 2015)

Cardboard is dirt cheap, stropping combound is dirt cheap.
So, keep using it or replace it if you notice a difference in use instead of looks.

Not sure why you thing cardboard is that much cheaper than leather though, enough leather for a stop costs a few quid and my block of stopping compound should see me through a couple of ice ages (assuming they solve that immortality thing first).
Never tried carboard though so It might be better, I tend not to worry about that, my general theory on sharpening is - "everything works, use whatever you like"


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

I get the cardboard free with my cereal costs me nothing, the leather for my leather strop cost me $6.00.I like a hard strop compound was less than the leather


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## MikeB_UK (Jul 27, 2015)

> I get the cardboard free with my cereal costs me nothing, the leather for my leather strop cost me $6.00.I like a hard strop compound was less than the leather
> 
> - Karda


So you already have the leather and the cardboard, the leather will last as long as your cereal bowl, so you're down to which one you prefer, try both, experiment, don't let your significant other catch you sharpening your tools on bits of furniture (don't ask) and you should be fine.


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

I already know which i like the card board


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## ClaudeF (Sep 22, 2013)

The primary reason to use cardboard from a cereal box is that is then and does not compress. When the blade is dragged along the strop, even slight pressure will compress leather. As the cutting edge goes by, the leather will spring back up, rounding the edge. The cereal box cardboard may compress an extremely small amount, but I doubt you can see it, let alone measure it.

I usually use my cardboard strop (glued to piece of shelving) for 3-4 years before I replace it. Not because it has turned black, but because it has gotten torn up in places by the tip of a knife or the corner of a gouge. The black is the microscopic particles of steel removed from the blade - shows the strop is doing its job. BTW, I glue my cereal box cardboard to the piece of shelving with rubber cement - makes it easy to peel off when replacing. Brian in BC uses a piece of tape on the ends of the cardboard.

Claude


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

Thanks Claude I guess i was overthinking again, does the built up act like a knife steel, should i put the compound directly on the black


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> I already know which i like the card board
> 
> - Karda


If it works for you, great. I prefer my $3 leather strop from amazon. It has some give to so it works better on carving gouges and is more forgiving if i slip. I figure if its good enough for people that shave faces for a living for hundreds of years, its good enough for my tools lol


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

I'm exploring different avenues. I haven't done that much or know much so i just have to try different things and see what works. But I also have to ask questions, I am best at asking stupid questions


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

I put a cardboard disc on my WS3000. I hope to heck I used rubber cement! Karda, you are asking questions due to lack of knowledge, not stupidity. I'm willing to bet that hundreds of lurkers are glad you are asking these questions.


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

Thanks. i'm kinsa thick some times and not having any body to talk to about that knows about I ask the experts here what I net to know. I appreciate your putting up with my questions


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## Phil32 (Aug 31, 2018)

The answer, Mike, is not found in doggedly following someone's instructions because "it always worked for them!" It is learning to read or sense the feedback of whatever process you're using. Is the tool really sharp? Does it slice thru the wood smoother than before? Does the process work for you?


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## torus (Apr 8, 2017)

> I put a cardboard disc on my WS3000. I hope to heck I used rubber cement!
> ...
> - Dark_Lightning


I am about to glue cardboard to the WS3000 disk. I was planning to use 3M's 77 spray. Any thoughts about this?


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

torus I bought some crazy glue for gluing patterns on to wood for carvingbut when I made my latest strop im used that worked great and no mess, I would try it

Thanks phil I know what you mean. i think the cardboard is better, that or very thin leather, actually anything hard but porous. I try not to follow things doggedly but it happens. But I like to know why and ask a lot of questions like does the black crap on a strop realy matter. and as far as judging sharp I don't know what sharp realy is. One reason is you guys and most carvers use basswood as a measure But I will be carving mostly hard wood. I was given a 3×6 x5' piece of bass wood but the end is very porous I cut a piece and it was porous. Sorry I'm rambling


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

> I put a cardboard disc on my WS3000. I hope to heck I used rubber cement!
> ...
> - Dark_Lightning
> 
> ...


It may well be what I used, because I have a can of it in the garage. Worst case I use acetone, and it's a glass disc, so shouldn't be all that tough to do. I just dislike that sort of mess.


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

no this is a stick, works like roll on deodorant here a picture, find with craft supplies. Check with your kids they probably have some


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## mpounders (Jun 22, 2010)

turning black will not make it less effective and you can apply additional compound directly on top of it. Cereal boxes make a good strop, but just replace the cardboard if it eventually gets cut up. Dunkle makes a pig skin strop that also is supposed to work well, because it is thinner than cow leather. But a box of cereal is really inexpensive, compared to pig skin! I really didn't understand what sharp was until I purchased some tools that came already sharp, particularly knives. OCCT and Helvie are some of my standards for sharpness, but a utility knife blade or an exacto knife blade are fairly sharp. They can be stropped to be even sharper. End grain on any wood is porous, but it is hard to say if it is the wood or the tool causing a cutting problem sometimes. Perhaps you could send off one or two tools to have them professionally sharpened and then you would have an idea what they should cut like. But be aware that cutting harder wood will generally mean they will get dull quicker and need sharpening sooner. I have seen even basswood damage a blade when a knot was cut into.


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

thanks I quit over thinking the strop. I sent mu V tool and a gouge to ken to sharpen that will give me a measure of sharp. I never thought of a utility knife. What i don't know is why am I not attaing that level of sharp. Is it my technique or am I not doing my technique enough. I really think there need to be a video on commissioning average tools from the box to sharp real time by hand. A video that shows how to remove excess metal and the shape to be attained. Mary Mays swing dance is not enough, what she is teaching is how to resharpen


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## ClaudeF (Sep 22, 2013)

As some others, notably Phil and Brian T have pointed out, a video will only show the author's method and how he/she does it. There are many ways of stropping a blade to "carving sharp" Watching someone else does not equate to how you do it. One of the principal problems for newer carvers, in my experience, is lifting the back of the blade too much while stropping, which gives you a large included angle and the knife is no longer carving sharp. I press the blade against my cardboard strop with my index finger to hold the entire blade flat against the strop - it gets part of my finger that rubs the strop dirty, but that's no big deal. The key, for me, is that I strop the entire width of the blade, not just the cutting edge.

I have had a couple of knives that I had to strop this way probably 200 times per side to get carving sharp (estimate - I didn't count). My Helvie blades arrived carving sharp, as did my Flexcuts - I won't name the others. Here's a little table I made up to show some of my knives. As you can see, there is quite a variation in the included angles - the narrower the angle, the easier it cuts basswood as the blade is not trying to push aside the wood as much. On the downside, a thinner blade will be more likely to chip or break on harder woods.










My advice is to keep stropping, and try to keep the blade flat against the strop with your index finger (without cutting yourself!!)

Claude


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

My biggest challenge with my gouges anf there is no information for is what the hell am I supposed to do with all the extra steel on my gouges, I did not have any pictures of what a gouges is supposed to look like just not as thick as they were. i feel like I have been floundering in a tub of molasses. I watched a Mary May video where she was push carving red oak. I'll never evewn be able to do that with bass wood


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

So what do you have in the way of gouges other than the ones you're having to shape? Any that are factory-sharp, like the others have mentioned above? I considered making some of my own, based on the lack of availability of some of the profiles I wanted. But I'd have to build a forge, and do other things that I don't really have time for (or, really, care to spend time on), and I found the profiles I want from Ashley Iles.

I expect that the thickness is a feature that the manufacturer provided so that you can get a fair variety of shapes that you want. If you have the curvature you want at the cutting edge, it's going to take a fair amount of hollowing on the back side to thin them out. HTH


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

I do have a brand new bent gouge from Stryi i don't use it much because it is smaller that i wanted, the Ukrainian place don't identify gouges by sweep and some times not even width, I also have a vintage 1" 8. one problem I am having is getting a flat bevel. but every body here and videos are telling me how to get there and yea I have a lot of metal to remove but the question is how much and where and to achieve what. I have yet to find profiles of gouges tha catalogs only photo from the top. When I ground down the thickest o e I could use it in place of a long bent. In other words I know how to get there but I don't know where I am going


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## Phil32 (Aug 31, 2018)

> I have yet to find profiles of gouges the catalogs only photo from the top. When I ground down the thickest one I could use it in place of a long bent. In other words I know how to get there but I don t know where I am going
> 
> - Karda


Here is a link to the Pfeil gouge profile chart: https://www.woodcraft.com/blog_entries/pfeil-tools-chart

Make a copy of the desired curve (perhaps on a piece of wood) and match your tool to that curve.


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

I spoke wrong again, I need to know what the gouge looks like side ways so I will know how to shape it I guess i;ll just have to wing it if it cuts that what matters


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## Phil32 (Aug 31, 2018)

If the forging is straight, I'd leave it straight, Karda.


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

they are not qyuite straight but not far enough off to make a difference to me, my problem is how shape the tool the way it should be. example my spoon gouge the gouge is half as thick as it was when I got it and I still am not sure I have taken off enough because i don't know what it should look like. and dso it the way i like don't fly because I have know Idea what it should be. here are pics of my spoon gouge as It is now after my attempts at shaping it cuts but just barely


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## ClaudeF (Sep 22, 2013)

Perhaps this will help. I don't have a spoon gouge, but I have a #3-12mm Pfiel straight full size gouge. Your gouge looks to me to be a #3 in your photos. My first photo shows the concave or inside of my gouge.









The second photo shows the convex or outside of the gouge. Note the bevel area. It's reflecting light from the window and the darker image is something in front of the window.









The last photo shows an end-on photo of the gouge. The camera focused on my hand instead of the gouge, but you can still see the bevel on the end.









In your last photo, your gouge appears to not have a clearly-defined bevel. My bevel is the factory bevel, which I think is 20°. I've ground the edge on this gouge twice to get rid of nicks in the edge. It's about 1/8 inch shorter than factory because of this, but I maintained the factory bevel.

The apparent lack of a bevel may be why your gouge does not cut well.

Hope this helps you.
Claude


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## Phil32 (Aug 31, 2018)

The cutting edge should be straight and square with the centerline of the tool as shown in Claude's photo. I have added this side view of a Pfeil #3a-8mm spoon gouge. In testing the gouge, be aware that a spoon gouge is not held like a straight gouge. Your pushing hand is on the handle, but your guiding hand may have the thumb in the bowl of the tool, pressing down. The angle of attack is higher and the cut is made with a scooping motion.










Here is a link to a discussion of the attack angle of different gouges:
https://forum.woodcarvingillustrated.com/forum/woodcarving-illustrated/woodcarving/woodcarving-tools-technology-sharpening/1123060-all-gouges-are-not-the-same


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

thanks Claude and phil that gives me a much better idea of what I should be doing, Mangle is about 20 degrees. My gouge looks like a #3 but it is marked #8a don'r tell me the tools are miss marked as well


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## ClaudeF (Sep 22, 2013)

More than likely, the manufacturer is using it's own numbering system. The most common one in the US is that of Pfiel, which is what Phil and I are referring to. As he mentioned, you can "stab" your gouge into a piece of scrap wood, then compare that to the Pfiel gouge chart Phil linked.

Here's a link for you, if you have time for reading: https://woodcarvingblog.wordpress.com/technical/tools-i-cant-live-without/ Mark Yundt is primarily an architectural carver and makes his living from it. Somewhere in his blog, if you read long enough, it shows how to carve the inside of a spoon bowl with regular #5 Pfiel gouge. I based my purchase of the Pfiel Swiss Made gouges on this article by Mark. I haven't been disappointed yet with ones in his list.

Looking again at your last photo, it appears you have ground off most of the side-to-side curve of the convex side of the gouge instead of just grinding the bevel. Obviously, I could be wrong on that interpretation, so if I am, just ignore me. I noticed on the Stryl web site that some of their gouges are listed as 3mm thick metal, and others as 2mm thick. I'm chauffeuring my grandkids this week and don't have access to my digital calipers to measure the thickness of my gouges. If I remember, I'll check when my son and DIL get back. When grinding a new edge on a gouge, it's important to keep the same curvature at the end of the gouge. When the metal is thicker, you will just have a longer bevel, but still with the same angle.


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

Claude here is a picture of the sides of my gouges before I started grinding check out the spoon gouge. what did I screw up ands how do I correct it


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## ClaudeF (Sep 22, 2013)

Unfortunately, I can't tell from a photo. In this photo, the spoon gouge looks to be about a #3. The white side (reflected light) appears to be flat all the way to the cutting edge. I doubt it was. If you are planning to carve spoons with a deep bowl (1/2 inch or greater, and 2 inch long bowl, you might need a spoon gouge such as this: https://www.woodcraft.com/products/pfeil-swiss-made-5-sweep-spoon-gouge-12-mm-full-size

If you are doing spoons with a relatively shallow bowl, 1/4 inch or so, and 2-3 inches long, then you can do it quite well with a straight #5-12mm gouge. This is what Mark Yundt used, I believe, in his demo photos. This is my #5: https://www.woodcraft.com/products/pfeil-swiss-made-5-sweep-gouge-12-mm-full-size. Same basic gouge but 2 inches shorter is https://www.woodcraft.com/products/pfeil-swiss-made-5-sweep-gouge-12-mm-intermediate-size and is $5 less.. I probably use my #5 more than any other. You can see it here: https://www.lumberjocks.com/projects/419115 if you scroll down a bit.


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

what I wanted you to see is the over all thickness of the toolsI can reshape a damaged edge But I am not a machinist and as I said I don't know what the tool should look like


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## MikeB_UK (Jul 27, 2015)

Hi Karda

Maybe it's the picture, but they look like lathe tools not carving gouges?


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

no these are much lighter than lathe tools, I am a turner and know the difference although I have seen many carving tools listed as turning tools on ebay


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

these spam posts have got to end


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

> these spam posts have got to end
> 
> - Karda


Just flag them and move on. The site s//w will be repaired at some point, to keep these dorks from squuezing through.


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

ok


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