# Lie Nielsen 4 1/2 Smoother - need advice



## lysdexic (Mar 21, 2011)

For the first time my wife wants me to pick out my own birthday present. I will end up paying for it of course. I got my eye on a LN 4 1/2 but having a hard time pulling the trigger. For those more experienced or have read the Anarchist Tool Chest give me opinions or ideas. I am trying to flush out my "tool
chest" This is what I have…...

Veritas block plane
WoodRiver #4
Veritas LA jack
Veritas LA jointer
Type 16 S-B #5
Veritas medium shoulder
Cabinet scrapers

I would like to have a good smoother and the woodriver is nice but I still need to Lap the sole (as well as the number five) and it does a pretty good job.

Maybe I should get another handsaw. I only have a Veritas dovetail saw. Or maybe I should get a different set of chisels. I have a full set of WoodRivers that were around $45 and the backs are concave along their length all the way to the edge. I know that there are other tools that I could use but the LN 4 1/2 is so seductive.

Any advice welcome. Before anyone asks… I don't have a way I work yet but I plan on being a heavy hand tool user in a blended shop. I am not interested in anymore power tools.

Thanks in advance.


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## WayneC (Mar 8, 2007)

Well, getting the Woodriver #4 and the LN 4 1/2 would be redundant. The BU jack might be reduntant with the smoothers depending on what your intending to use it for. Another option would be to get the BU Smoother and drop the #4 and 4 1/2. I am not real excited about using the woodriver #4. Think investment should be made in Smoother from a bang for the buck perspective. Better to put your money in a quality smoother over jack and jointer..

I assume your using the #5 for rough work and that it is an old Stanley?

So your plane's would be

Low angle block plane for trimming, etc.
BU smoother for smoothing work (or sub in 4 1/2 or 4 )
BU jack for shooting board
BU jointer for straightening boards
Old #5 sharpened tuned for rough work
Medium Shoulder plane for tennon work, etc

I belive the BU planes have interchangeable blades. An extra blade or two could add some flexability. Perhaps a toothed blade to replace the #5 for rough work in the BU jack (not sure how well it actually works)
No real advise on the saws ATM unless your ready to ditch your miter saw/table saw and get rip and cross cut saws.
Would go with the chisels until you got frustrated with them (if at all)


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## lysdexic (Mar 21, 2011)

Wayne,

Thanks for your time. I am not excited about the WoodRiver either. i dont know why maybe I am just being spoiled. I will say the the Veritas LA jointer leaves a nicer surface than the WoodRiver #4

The Veritas LA BU Smoother is really a easy fit because I do have different irons for the jack and jointer already. However, the LN 4 1/2 is REALLY tempting.

The #5 is older off Ebay and I am using it for rough work.

Your advice about the WoodRiver chisels is surprising. Welcome but surprising.

Another thought, is too improve my sharpening station with some Shapton water stones. right now a have a 1000/8000 stone, granite block and sandpaper. I dont have a grinding wheel either. But I do have the Veritas honing jig.

Maybe some spokeshaves. Maybe a Tite-Mark gauge. Maybe several EBay purchases. Maybe a vintage Brace….......I do need a real burnisher instead of my big screwdriver….....


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## Woodowl (Jul 15, 2011)

Why don't you let your work dictate what tool you need next? That always so much fun.


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## lysdexic (Mar 21, 2011)

I try to keep that advice in the forefront but this is for a "special" occasion. That being said, I should buy a handsaw other that my dovetail saw. Maybe a rip cut and a cross cut saw but really don't know which way to go with that.


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## WayneC (Mar 8, 2007)

My comment one the chisels was to play with them for a while…

What about marking guages, rules, etc?


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## lysdexic (Mar 21, 2011)

I've got a Crown try square, a swanson 12" combo that is a little off depending on how you tighten it. A little 4" machinist square. A have 2 marking gauges that are rosewood but I don't know the brand because it was written in Chinese or something. These were all bought a Lowe's or WoodCraft


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## WayneC (Mar 8, 2007)

I was thinking a Tite-Mark or similar…

http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?cat=545


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## lysdexic (Mar 21, 2011)

I find that when I cheap out and buy an OK tool. I wish I had bought a great tool and the money for for the OK tool is not well spent.

I have heard alot of good things about the Tite-Mark.

You know, I really would like to buy vintage and have been watching a long watch list on ebay for a month or so. But I don't have the confidence yet.


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## Marc5 (Apr 1, 2009)

Looks like you have the plane world covered. Based on what I see you have if you were to add a 4 1/2 I would get one with a high angle frog. This would be a good set up for gnarly woods and really all hardwoods.

Seems to me like you really could use a good sash or tenon saw. I purchased an awesome tenon saw from Bad Axe Tool Works and recommend any of their tools. Going to order a 14" sash saw here shortly. I can't wait!

Every chisel I have ever purchased needed work. I have chisels from several manufacturers and era's. They are all good as long as you keep them tuned, so spend some time lapping the backs of your and put a good edge no them and the chisels will due fine.

Honestly ,it seems you actually have made up you mind and are looking for someone to say go ahead, so, go a head, you will not be sorry.


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## lysdexic (Mar 21, 2011)

Marc, 
Actually I don't have my mind made up. I thought I did but the 4 1/2 seemed superfluous. Thats why I posted. I actually tried to buy a Bad Axe from Chris Schwarz last week when he was selling off some tools but i was too late. I am going to hold off on the 4 1/2 and save up for a high end infill smoother  Just kidding.

Does anyone have feedback on Bad Axe vs Lie Nielson vs vintage saws. I will have a look at the reviews here and I'll look at Garrett Hack's and Tolpins latest book on handtools.


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## lysdexic (Mar 21, 2011)

I really appreciate the feedback everyone.

Marc - I have looked at the Bad Axe Saws. First let me say that Mark has a great introduction page. Do you think he knows me? I quickly narrowed my pick down to the 16" tenon saw and I saw in the reviews that this is the same one that you have. Did you get the hybrid cut? If not, why not?


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## RGtools (Feb 18, 2011)

I second the tite-mark if you are going to get serious about handwork (and it sounds like that's where you are going) you need GREAT layout tools. Grab the whole set and try not to drop the think on the concrete floor.

The other nice bet I would go with in your current tool set would be a set of great chisels…Lie Nielsen makes real winners with flat backs and proper lands (japanese chisels are another way to go)

You can't go wrong with a Bad AXE either, several craftsmen I know and trust have them and love them.

happy hunting.


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## mook (Apr 16, 2011)

Lysdexic: off the top of my head without too much scratching:- you have a lot of planes but no heavy smoother, so I say go for the LN #4&1/2 with high angle frog-you then have a wide heavyish smoother bevel down with cutting angle 55° . i bet you don't touch that #4 Woodriver or any other #4 again since you also have that Veritas LA jack which also makes a good smoother….


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

You will use the 4 1/2 a bunch if the work you'll do involves smoothing larger panels. That's where the tool has come into focus for me. Smoothing doesn't appear to be the biggest hole in your arsenal, though. By the sound of the entries above, it's not having a larger sash / tenon saw that's got you bunged. And that's kinda funny because we're having a saw discussion on the Anarchist book review page too… I have a 14" Cincinnati Saw Company backsaw, sharpened by Mark Harrell before he starting making saws, that is my single 'non-dovetail' backsaw and I love it. It's filed 14tpi and goes into just about anything up to about 2 1/2" before starting to complain, meaning for the work I do there's not a need to get anything bigger yet. So I'd suggest a saw that fills that niche for you would fall in the 'special' gift category…

I think the only new thing I have in the way of handtools, besides a Stanley Gent's Dovetail saw, are my SW 750 chisels so I can't opine on Vertas saws over vintage. But with so many vintage saws out there, it made sense to me to get a good one sharpened by a pro and move forward. I did that and as a result know what sharp on a handsaw is. I can sharpen, still learning, but having a benchmark in the till meant a world of difference.


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## Bigrock (Apr 16, 2010)

Well you are stuck in the middle and at this point you have to get moving. I have not used any of the new Stanley chisels, but I would not trade my LN chisels for them. I have a couple of other sets. They don't compare. 
You have a WR #4 plane, depending on which model it is lets you know how good it is. The LN #4 is a lot better than any of the WR planes. (My world) As far as the LN #4 1/2 plane, it is heaver than the #4, it also wider and these are the two big reasons I like this plane. It makes you work less when you are smoothing a surface. I hope this helps. I have very little knowledge about Bad ass Saws, but I enjoy my LN's. I have two.


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## lysdexic (Mar 21, 2011)

Thanks again. I realize that everyone is busy and I appreciate you taking the time to chime in.

I decided against the 4 1/2. I have a smoother, not the best, but I have one. I don't have a larger back saw/tenon saw and have run up against the limitations of my current saws already.

Therefore, I ordered a Bad Axe 16" Tenon saw @ 12 PPI and hybrid cut and a Tite-Mark Gauge today.

The tricky part is Bad Axe only requires a deposit and the purchase of both will appear cheaper to my wife for the time being. I can explain the rest of the balance in a few weeks.

My comment about the high-end infill smoother above is only partly in jest. If my skills ever deserve one I may consider it. But for right now it is like giving a violin to a monkey.

Thanks to all.


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## RGtools (Feb 18, 2011)

You will learn to play yet.

The tenon saw was a VERY good choice. Although I was going to leave the comment that if you wanted to buy the 4 and 1/2 and send the 4 my way I would graciously accept : P

Enjoy the new toyl (tool+toy=toyl)


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## lysdexic (Mar 21, 2011)

Got an email from Mark at Bad Axe that informed me that the production and delivery time for the tenon saw is 12 -14 weeks. Wow.

Just FYI


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## KellyS (Jul 20, 2009)

I like the Tite-mark idea. How about a nice Veritas Bevel gauge, or go all out and get one of those awesome looking Chris Vesper Bevel gauges. The high angle frog 4-1/2 would be nice, I wished I had a high angle frog for working the Quarter sawn oak. The tenon saw would be nice. I enjoy using my dovetail saw. How about a the Veritas plow planes..or maybe buy an old Stanley 78 off ebay. I love my router table and power tools, but there was something just too cool about rehabilitating an old 78 my uncle gave me and cutting a rabbet with it. A LN skewed block plane. If you can't decide, she can buy me something. 
Have fun!


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## Marc5 (Apr 1, 2009)

Lysdexic,

When I ordered my Tenon Saw I wanted a rip grind for tenons on a bench I was building. I will order the hybrid cut on the sash saw when I save the money. Don't let the wait scare you unless you need it quick. Worth the wait! I am sure the LN equivalent is also a awesome saw. Let me know if you get it.


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## lysdexic (Mar 21, 2011)

The wait did not so much disappoint as surprise. I hope this means that he has a brisk business.


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## docholladay (Jan 9, 2010)

Woodriver vs. LN. No comparison. Get the LN. You won't regret it. I have an old Millers Falls no. 10 which is the similar to the LN 4 1/2. The 4 1/2 has a wider iron than the no. 4 planes. The 4 1/2's are desired because they can cover more ground faster when smooting a panel and will leave fewer plane marks. I love my old Millers Falls plane. The LN design is based on the old Stanley Bed Rock design which is probably the most desirable of the antique planes. The Woodriver, is loosely based on this design as well, but the LN is manufactured to much higher quality standards. Buy one for a lifetime.

Doc


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## crank49 (Apr 7, 2010)

If I had your collection of planes and a set of WoodRiver chisels, wait a minute, I do have a set of Wood River chisels, well, I would look to upgrade the chisels. Lee Valley has these on sale till Aug 8.










Maybe throw in a Veritas smoother.


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## mook (Apr 16, 2011)

Doc said "The 4 1/2's are desired because they can cover more ground faster when smooting a panel and will leave fewer plane marks." 
I respectfully offer a second opinion because I think the main attribute of a #4&1/2 size is the additional weight and this in combination with a wider footprint makes the plane much easier to use than a #4. In fact the difference has to experienced to be believed, I believe (. 
They all leave marks if the blade is not in order…..


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

@Philip - Amen on the "all leave marks" clarification. Hand tools are no different than power tools in that regard; even the highest quality equipment, when adjusted like crap, will perform in a craptacular way. I like the 4 1/2 a lot, it does great work. But it has it's place. Because of it's length and width, it means more work on larger panels to address isolated low spots or areas of tear out; gotta work the whole panel to get at those. I'll instead work smaller areas like that with a #3 or #2 and get done. Others use scrapers, and that's good too (I'm not great w/ the #80; okay, not great). So sometimes the 4 1/2's size works against it.


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## ChuckM (May 12, 2008)

Although you said you want no more power tools, do consider a power sharpening system if one day your tool build-up reaches a stage such that sharpening is a pain (for half a dozen irons and half a dozen chisels and more!):

http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=48435&cat=1,43072,48435
http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=67152&cat=1,43072,67090

Chisels? The Stanley Sweethearts socket chisels are comparable to LN's in design and cost much much less, I believe. I've used Narex chisels and they're good, too-but you'd want to flatten their backs and hone the edges first.


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