# Bench Dog (hole) placement



## sansoo22 (May 7, 2019)

I'm trying to finish up my first bench…aka Mighty Mouse. I've read quite a bit on bench dogs, hold downs and vises. I have a rather small shop space so this thing is only 49" x 22". Because of its short size and limited space I only incorporated a side vise. Anyway I'm wondering if there is anything I might be missing with my planned hole layout for dogs and hold downs.










I did quite a bit of consideration about the way I like to work. Because I'm tall with long arms I like to stand at the end of my bench previous makeshift bench and build a sort of square with my bench dogs. I have a shoulder that isnt quite right since my football days and standing at the end makes it feel better. So i incorporated one line of holes right down the center. I have another set further down for larger panels, one row down each side, and of course a couple laid out for the pop up dogs in the vise face.

From what I can tell the placement of the holes is a rather personal choice but thought I'd ask for guidance since this is my first bench and I'm not entirely sure what I'm doing.

Thanks


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## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

I'm not sure what your dog holes are for exactly? I get the ones in front of the vise obviously. But, other than that, I don't see any need for anymore than necessary for your holdfasts to reach everywhere you need them to. Maybe that's how you have them spaced and I'm just not seeing it. The lines running the full length of the bench at front and back seem unnecessary to me with your bench configuration. Remember, you can drill more holes at any time. You can't un-drill them though ;-) I'd start with the holes you know you need and add others as you find a need for them.

Good luck!


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## sansoo22 (May 7, 2019)

Thanks Ken. I had a feeling I was going overboard. My old "bench" was a wobbly assembly table I had thrown together with a grid of holes in the 3/4" top. I would usually just drop a couple bench dogs in 2 of the holes and use those as a stop for flattening and smoothing duties. I transferred the holes i used the most from that top to this one and then added the 2 full length rows for reasons.

Think i will start with just the few around the vise, a couple for a plane stop, and maybe 2 or 3 more for hold fasts. For spacing around hold fasts do you make them so the 2 can overlap? For example hold fast width is 6" so I would space my holes that width from the edge and 12" apart?


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## Delete (May 19, 2017)

Thats a nice start to your small bench. I think your bench dog holes need a little more planning. Unless you are a carver and there main use is for a hold down to secure your work, they will have limited use. In addition for that use, your length wise holes are to close to the edge.

The holes in line with your side vise will come in handy for clamping and holding smaller work with the bench dog. The set of holes across the center are not a good idea, that will weaken the center of the bench and introduce some bounce to the bench, which is even worse if your a carver with your work held down in this area. Here's a picture of my bench. It's larger than your bench but maybe there are a few ideas you might consider. I used a leg vise where your side vise is going.










If you want full length dog holes, they are not very useful unless you have some way of clamping the work against your dogs. There are different types of vises you can build into the end of the bench. The easiest and most inexpensive is probably the standard woodworking vise. In my bench I utilized two, lined up with my two rows of dog holes. With this set up I can use them for end work, I can clamp up a piece of work from a tiny box to a box or frame, the size of the workbench top, for assembly, with out using a single clamp, using caul type backers. In addition you can use both vises as a small capacity Moxon with a backer. At minimum you should install one such vise off to the front side to utilize one full length, row of dog holes.



















If you will be working with lots of panels such as cupboard doors the Moxon vise is what you need. If you will have access to both sides of your bench it goes nicely across from your side or leg vise.










If your going to be doing any edge planing your side vise will work but you need some form of outboard support.


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## MPython (Nov 30, 2018)

I was very happy with my bench when it was finished, so I was reluctant to make Swiss cheese out of the top with a bunch of unnecessary dog holes. I used my bench for several months before I decided to drill a row of dog holes along the front half of the bench top that would allow my holdfasts to reach the front edge. They w0orked fine. After several years I decided I needed a second row of dog holes closer to the rear of the bench top. I staggered placement of the rear holes with the front ones. I'm very happy with the arrangement. I don't have any holes I don't use and I use all the ones I have. I'm glad I waited. Actual experience is your best guide.


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## sansoo22 (May 7, 2019)

Carlos thanks for the advice. I'm not into carving now but my great uncle gave me a few of his carving tools before he passed so i would like to do that some day. I really like the vises you have. I've considered doing a twin screw tail vise but I didn't design my bench that well. I dont have a lot of room for vise scews. I was thinking of building in something like this. Not as fancy looking as what you have but it seems to work quite nicely. I don't have room for a sliding dead man like you do so instead I'm building one into the leg across from the side vise. And a couple dog holes on the apron to support long stock.

Python I'm probably jumping the gun and overthinking this whole thing. I agree experience is the key. I have a few commissions i magically picked up and wanted to finish up this bench to help with those. After the input I've received I will probably erase like 90% of the planned holes and just put in the ones around the vise and wait until i decide where i want to use hold fasts.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> I was very happy with my bench when it was finished, so I was reluctant to make Swiss cheese out of the top with a bunch of unnecessary dog holes. I used my bench for several months before I decided to drill a row of dog holes along the front half of the bench top that would allow my holdfasts to reach the front edge. They w0orked fine. After several years I decided I needed a second row of dog holes closer to the rear of the bench top. I staggered placement of the rear holes with the front ones. I m very happy with the arrangement. I don t have any holes I don t use and I use all the ones I have. I m glad I waited. Actual experience is your best guide.
> 
> - MPython


Would you be so kind as to take a picture of this when you get a chance? I am in the same dilemma as the OP, and this kind of makes sense but want to make sure i am visualizing correctly.


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## MPython (Nov 30, 2018)

Here you go, SMP:










I built the bench with the rectangular dog holes along each edge for use with the end vise. I added the round dog holes later. First was the row of six holes nearest the camera. I located them so my hold downs would reach almost to the front edge of the bench. After using the bench for a couple of years, I decided it would be handy to have a second row of six holes located so the hold downs reach the back edge of the bench. With these locations, I can just reach just about every square inch of my bench top with a hold down. I also staggered the front back holes to avoid conflict between the front and rear hold downs. This arrangement has worked well for me. So far, I haven't found I need anymore dog holes.


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## Delete (May 19, 2017)

Didn't you say you didn't want your bench to look like Swiss cheese. Smile MPython I'm joking, nice bench, lots of storage. I don't feel comfortable putting dog holes that close to the edge, I would be afraid of cracking something with my softwood bench, if I was doing heavy work.


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## bondogaposis (Dec 18, 2011)

My guess is that eventually you will want to add an end vise. When you do that you will want dog holes along the front of the bench. I would wait on adding a lot of bench dog holes until you use the bench for a while. You can always add them, but you can't take them away.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> Here you go, SMP:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Great, thank you so much for this! I'll have to measure my holdfasts and make a cardboard template or something to check against my bench, but this makes sense. I currently mainly need them for a batten to hold pieces against my planning stop.


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## keith204 (Nov 5, 2013)

I have had 2 kinds of dog holes: 
1) Willy Nilly Dog Holes
2) A MFSlab w/ CNC-drilled dog holes all over

I love the MFSlab!

BUT….

I got along quite fine with my Willy Nilly Dog Hole approach previously, and actually quite liked it. Loved it.

I drilled a few semi-strategic holes near the vise. Over the next few years I drilled holes wherever I felt like it, and whatever size I felt like.

The freedom was amazing!


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## sansoo22 (May 7, 2019)

Thank you all for the great input. Glad I decided to post here before making any permanent choices. Last night I cleared off the old layout and came up with a new one. I won't be adding all of these yet. Probably just the few around the vice and maybe the back row for hold fasts. The 4 holes by the vise jaw will double up for use with a plane stop I intend to make as well.









I know the holes for the vise aren't evenly spaced but I kind of like how they are laid out. I should have 2 to 12" of clamping capacity using the 2 different sets of holes.

My last question is one single row of holes along the front for jointing or can i do a staggered double row? This apron is 6-7/8" tall and was intended to have a double row in my initial design but I was totally wrong on dog hole placement so thought id check first.


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## Delete (May 19, 2017)

Those big aprons look alright, a bit of flavor of the Moravian bench there. I hate to be the bearer of bad news though. By adding that apron to the ends as well, you have locked the top against any movement. In a humid shop you will crack the corners, in a dry shop you will split the top, probably where your outside aprons attach to the top. If you look up Moravian style benches they have the big aprons front and back but not on the ends to allow the top to move.


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## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

I think I'd do a double staggered row just to accommodate different board widths.


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## sansoo22 (May 7, 2019)

> Those big aprons look alright, a bit of flavor of the Moravian bench there. I hate to be the bearer of bad news though. By adding that apron to the ends as well, you have locked the top against any movement. In a humid shop you will crack the corners, in a dry shop you will split the top, probably where your outside aprons attach to the top. If you look up Moravian style benches they have the big aprons front and back but not on the ends to allow the top to move.
> 
> - Carlos510


Original intent was to just pin the ends to the sides with some oak pins. The holes in the sides were slightly oblonged to allow for movement. And then because I'm a noob i put glue on the wrong end of the pin and hammered it in. So they are glued on now. If the bench dies it will be a well learned lesson and I will rebuild.


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## Delete (May 19, 2017)

It happens. I was going to post a picture of a Moravian but I don't have anything that is not copyrighted, so I turned to my set of 1908 "Cassell's Cyclopedia Of Mechanics" and found this bench that illustrates the idea, some might get some ideas as well. They still make the mistake of screwing the top to the crosspiece, there are ways to avoid that now such as T buttons to secure the top and allow movement.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

What i did on my English Workbench is did what Richard Maguire did in the videos, siinilar to what you see on "nicholson bench" or "knockdown nicholson", i guess its the traditional pattern, works ok but kind of messes with my ocd since i usually store my holdfasts there and they aren't level.


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## sansoo22 (May 7, 2019)

> What i did on my English Workbench is did what Richard Maguire did in the videos, siinilar to what you see on "nicholson bench" or "knockdown nicholson", i guess its the traditional pattern, works ok but kind of messes with my ocd since i usually store my holdfasts there and they aren't level.
> 
> - SMP


This is exactly why I'm putting in way more thought to this than probably necessary. I'm also a software architect for a living which doesn't help keep me from trying to over plan every detail.


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## MPython (Nov 30, 2018)

Sansoo, I have a single row of dog holes in the front apron of my bench. I use them occasionally in conjunction with my face vise to hold boards for edge plaining. That only works for relatively narrow boards. If the board is much wider than 4 or 5 inches, it quickly becomes too tall to plane comfortably. I built a "deadman" to solve this problem (you can see it on the right side of my bench in the photo I posted above). It is removable and provides end support for boards or panels up to 2or 3 feet wide. In your case, your wide apron will allow you two or more rows of dog holes, which will give you the flexibility to edge plane boards up to 8 or 10 inches wide. You will still run into problems with wide panels and you will need some sort of support other than a peg in your apron.


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## sansoo22 (May 7, 2019)

I ended up drilling all the holes from my layout. It may be more than some folks would have done but I've already put the bench to work to help finish itself. And I've used most of the hole configuration I have going. On order are some Veritas prairie dogs and some Gramercy (i think thats the company) hold fasts.









Checking what things will fit underneath. Thanks to Carlos and the image he shared I now want a cabinet and/or some small drawers underneath for organization.









Close up of my mallet and plane stop prototypes. The mallet is maple and old growth heart pine that came out of my aunts old house. Not pictured are a couple oak pins i made for the side apron.









Finally putting the bench to work. That plank will be used for a dead man I'm building into the leg opposite of the face vise. Trusty No 5 pulling full length shavings is such a treat.

This won't be a forever bench by any stretch of the imagination but I love having it so far. With a bad shoulder I thought i was going to have to give up hand tools. The combination of a wobbly bench and bum shoulder resulted in bursitis in my elbow. Having a proper(ish) bench has let me get back to work with very little discomfort at all. And I couldn't be more thrilled.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Surface clamps come in handy as well. NOT cheap, but I find I use them quite a bit.

http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=57059&cat=1,41637


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## Delete (May 19, 2017)

Looking good and real solid Sanson. Should give you long service. If you want to build in storage, here is something I posted a couple of days ago, you might find helpful. Scroll to the bottom two images.

https://hobbyworkshopprojects.blogspot.com/2019/05/workmate-on-steroids.html


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## sansoo22 (May 7, 2019)

> Surface clamps come in handy as well. NOT cheap, but I find I use them quite a bit.
> 
> - HorizontalMike


I just learned about those in a Stumpy Nubs video last night. I would buy a set but I kind of blew the budget out of the water on the Makita track saw. Its my b-day in a few days and i've been on good behavior so far this year so i thought i deserved a treat.



> Looking good and real solid Sanson. Should give you long service. If you want to build in storage, here is something I posted a couple of days ago, you might find helpful. Scroll to the bottom two images.
> 
> https://hobbyworkshopprojects.blogspot.com/2019/05/workmate-on-steroids.html
> 
> - Carlos510


Thanks again Carlos. That's a nice simple design for a cabinet and drawers. I was thinking one single cabinet with pull out trays but your idea looks to have more storage options. What are your thoughts on adding a simple tool rail to the back side of the bench? Not for storage but somewhere to slip chisels and hand saws to keep them out of the way? I think I have enough oak left in the rack to make one.


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## Delete (May 19, 2017)

I don,t see a problem with that. If you have no other plans for that side of the bench, a solid full length piece, attached to the bench with 3, 1/2" stand-offs would work. That method is more common with a blacksmith bench to keep tools and hammers handy. More common to woodworking benches is a built in tool tray, but that would work too.


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## sansoo22 (May 7, 2019)

> I don,t see a problem with that. If you have no other plans for that side of the bench, a solid full length piece, attached to the bench with 3, 1/2" stand-offs would work. That method is more common with a blacksmith bench to keep tools and hammers handy. More common to woodworking benches is a built in tool tray, but that would work too.
> 
> - Carlos510


I've been toying with the idea of attempting to incorporate both. I have no plans for that side of the bench as it sits closer to the wall. I can walk by that side but not really work over there. I like the way Jay Bates did his here. He spaced the tool well away from the bench enough to hold saws and/or bench chisels.


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## Delete (May 19, 2017)

Yes that works, more important Jay likes it. Personally I'm not crazy about it, but thats me. A deep tray might have me piling tools in there (not good for teeth and cutting edges) on a busy job.


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## sansoo22 (May 7, 2019)

Good point Carlos. I was interested in the rail and/or well because i bent 2 teeth on my finishing saw over the weekend. Its 2 of the teeth in the back 1/2 in of the blade so doubt i will ever notice. I get excited and tend to leave things on the bench that should be put away.

I'm going to play around with the design. I don't lay my planes down on their side…cuz im one of those guys ...so really all i need is a well wide enough and deep enough to hold my #6 plane. My bench does have to pull the occasional out feed support duties so the extra width won't hurt either.


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