# Question: How to give a quote to family\friends



## Zuki (Mar 28, 2007)

DW's Aunt V has taken a shine to the bed frame that I made for me and DW when we moved into out new home 4 years ago. She would like a quote on having me build 2 - one for her son and one for her an Uncle J.

Costing the materials is pretty straight forward . . . but the time is my challenge.

Do I gustimate an amount of time and multiply by $x.xx hr or do I say "Hmmm . . . I think I will charge this amount?"

Im a little stumped ??

What complicates matters a little more is that Aunt V SQUEEZES every $0.05 until she get $0.10 so I guessing what ever price I come back with will be outrageous as she will say "I could buy a bedframe (not like mine) for less than that."

Thoughts ?


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## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

I can't help you with the pricing .. actually there is a great discussion on one of Don's postings re: the box he made for someone.

my question is: what will you do if she says (or "WHEN" she says) that she can get them cheaper at the store? Are you going to make the beds for her anyway or are you going to stick to your guns and to the quote that you come up with?


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## nealjr (Sep 11, 2007)

I too have run in to this issue. When people tell me "I can get it cheaper at (insert store name here)" I ask them what they want more cheap price and low quality or do you want something that can go to your Great Grand Children? Then I explain to them the difference between Hand Crafted and something that your neighbors have bought from china. Living near Atlanta ego is everything. As for family I always consider how serious they are about having this Heirloom made. I use Cut list to help with estimates. I have current wood prices and look up all Hardware prices and add 10 to 15%. If they still agree and it cost less than estimated I offer a percent of their deposit back or apply the balance to their next purchase. Most times they are Happy with their new Heirloom that they tell me to keep it as a bonus.


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## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

Hum…sometimes the best answer is no. Just be careful sometimes family is the Worst to work for.


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## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)

For family you are probably better off giving them away as a gift.


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## Tangle (Jul 21, 2007)

This might be a real good time to be "too busy". Vague answers are best.


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## Tangle (Jul 21, 2007)

My answer to the customer who tells me he can get it cheaper; "If you will be satisfied with that quality of work, that is exactly what you should buy." At which point I walk away. The simple fact is that I am in business to make a living. The other fact is that I cannot compete with the prices at the big box stores. I can out do them on quality. If the customer wants to talk low prices I send him to Walmart.
Tom


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## shaun (Sep 16, 2007)

My personal experience is that family and business usually do not mix well together. But there are a couple of really good books on the subject of pricing your work. One approach is to calculate your shop rate which would include not only an amount for your time but something toward your overhead costs (rent/mortgage, utilities, taxes, tool wear, etc). You then charge an hourly rate based on that number plus materials which are usually marked up.

Because this is a side business for me and I don't rely on income from it to flll my fridge I can afford to take a little different approach. I mark up materials at 15% and then decide how much I want to get paid based on the complexity of the job. For example, I'll charge more for a piece that requires a lot of angles, miter cuts and maybe the use of the router table vs. something that's all srtaight cuts that can all be done on a table saw. Both jobs may take the same amount of time to complete but I will charge less for the one that was easier for me to do.

I don't always get a deposit up front either. It depends on the customer and the job. If it's a good cutomer that I've worked with before and I can afford to front the materials (never go into debt to start a job) I'll do so knowing I'll get it back when the job is done (trust goes both ways). Otherwise I make sure I get enough of a *"non refundable"* deposit to at least cover the materials. That way if the customer backs out I haven't lost any cash and the materials stay with me as compensation for my lost time.

On larger jobs I've woked with customers on a milestone basis. They pay me in advance and I work to a mutually agreed upon point in the job, then they pay me some more and I work to the next point in the job. An example of this might be something like a bedroom set. They pay me for the bed, I build it, they pay me for the night stands, I build them, they pay me for the dresser, I build it. Working on this basis I have no problem giving the customer what I've been paid for if they back out of the job mid point because I'm making sure that the milestone payments include any profit I intended to make up to that point. When I'm doing this I also offer to e-mail pictures of the project to the customer on a weeky basis so they can see the progress. Once a milestone has been reached and it's time for a payment, I invite them to the shop to see the work in person, this also provides them a convienent opportunity to hand me a check 

Pricing and payment is really all about what works for you and the customer, being flexible has landed me a couple of jobs that I otherwise would not have gotten.

One thing I do not do is charge the customer for my mistakes. Let's say I need some more wood because I did something silly like cut a board to short, that's my problem not the customer's.

Oh ya - and evrything Tom said….


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## Tangle (Jul 21, 2007)

Oh, I forgot to answer your question about how to quote. I figure the material and add 1/3 for waste.I then figure(guestimate) the time. I charge $40/ hour.This is where experience comes in but we all make mistakes here, we just hope they aren't too big. If you're unsure you can go time and material. I then add from 20-40% profit depending on the size of the job. Small jobs more big jobs less. That machinery in your shop started to wear out the day you brought it home. It will have to be replaced sooner than you think. There is the light bill and all the other expenses of running a business. Don't forget that you now pay your own Social Security. And you'd better be thinking about retirement. This a fair system that I've used for a lot of years in the saddle shop. If I can't make a profit, I'll do something else. It's just business


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## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

after reading the above re: building for family members (and the expected response from Auntie) an option might be to offer the bed at cost with the request that she advertise your services by telling people how much the "heirloom quality" bed would cost normally. 
She will be thrilled at the "money saved", love her family member for giving her such a great deal, and will brag about what she got and what it's really worth.


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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

My first questiion always is:
"What is your budget?" 
The answer gives you lots of wiggle room.

Bob


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## snowdog (Jul 1, 2007)

Here are a few thoughts, I value my friends and family to much to put the relationships at risk so I never lend money to friends or family. I will either give it (time or money) as a gift or not at all. The same holds true for work (mostly). Since work is money I will not charge family for work and I will never work for a friend for money. I will volunteer my time and they can buy whatever is needed (material) to get the job done.

I'll say it again  I value my friends and family to much to put the relationships at risk.


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## DeputyDawg (Jul 18, 2007)

Zuki;
I found an estimating site and have used it for a couple of years. www.bridgewoodestimator/design.com/index.htm You might look at it and see if it will work for you. 
"DeputyDawg"


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## Zuki (Mar 28, 2007)

All good information folks. I will go back later and digest all the details. I think I have made up my mind on quoting family and friends. I think it is a good compromise.

1) No labour charges if it fits within downtime and with no strict deadline. Do it as part of the "family\friend obligation". If they want it in two weeks and other projects have to be put aside . . . then the situation has changed. I can use the project to fine tune some skills.

2) Charge for gas. If Im burning fuel to pick up materials and drop off the finished product . . . the least they can do is give you $20 for gas.

3) Charge materials at cost . . . unless it is a gift.

4) If they offer $$$ at the end . . . greatfully accept and put it towards new tools.

5) Ask them to promote me to their friends. That is where I will get the money for my new mitre saw.

Thanks to all who provided info . . .


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## Radish (Apr 11, 2007)

Deb there is a reason your Ms Executive Director of Inspections. What a thoroughly Solomon-like thing to say.


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## newguy (Aug 26, 2007)

I have a neighbor that has a friend who is retired and is a great woodworker. She tells me that he keeps making stuff for her and her husband and won't accept any money. So now she wants him to come over and redo one of her rooms and she'll buy the lumber and materials and cook him dinner and such.
We recently went over for dinner and I brought some catalogs and showed them both what it cost for this friend to do this work. I think I opened there eyes a bit but one never knows and I think they both feel that it's his hobby and he really enjoys the time in his shop. Bottom line is I said buy him some gift certificates for woodworking tools to show some appreciation. Hmmm maybe I'll start getting some gigs for him and collect a percentage of his take?????


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## Fingersleft (Sep 25, 2007)

As many of the previous posters have indicated, there are a number of good books which deal with pricing your work. But I thing the issue here is really dealing with a friend or relative.

Periodically, I'm approached by a neighbor who has indicated a desire for one of my pieces. And my reaction is always the same. I offer to teach their husband/wife/son, etc. how to build the same piece, if they will pay for the materials. The use of the shop is free. My instruction is free. And I indicate that he will end up with a nice item of furniture, and he will learn something in the process.

While my offer is a sincere one, I've never had any takers, and have maintained my firendships. When this first occurred, I was puzzled that my offer had never be accepted. I've come to understand that many people deal with their "wants" by writing a check. I don't fault them for this. In fact, I feel sorry for them, in as much as I believe they value the item, but have little appreciation for the experience.


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## shaun (Sep 16, 2007)

After reading through the comments I have to admit that I totally missed the point of the question in my original post. But with that said this is a business for me, maybe not my primary source of income but a business none the less.

Let's take a look at things from the other side of the fence. If I had a family member/friend that owned a gas station I would not even dream of asking them to sell me gas for anything less than the price posted at the pump. I would however very graciously and with great appreciation accept such an offer if it were made. But I would never haggle with a friend/family member over the price of thier product/service.

Real life example - My wife and I are both tattoo enthusiasts and we each have several of them. Guess what, we also have a friend that is a tatoo artist and owns his own shop. When it's time for new tattoos we go see Chuck, tell him what we want done, he offers technical and creative input then goes to work. When he's done, I plop the credit card on the counter and he fills in the blanks. The subject of price is never discussed. I do this because 1) he does quality work and the last thing I want is a bad tattoo so I'm willing to pay for that quality, 2) he is truely a friend and I know he is not going to rip me off, and 3) he is truely a friend and I would never insult him by haggleing with him which in my mind is a defacto statement that his work is somehow not worth what he is asking for it. (and yes, Chuck gives us great deals which is why I always add a tip to the credit card slip when he hands it to me for signature)

So as a person who is in business himself I would expect to be treated with the same level of trust and respect especially from my family and friends. Anything less and I'd say they're using you and really aren't your friends now are they?

But hey…. that's just me


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## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

my husband was a mechanic and did lots of free work for friends… I did eventually talk him into charging … at that time labour charges were about $40/hour at the garage and I think he made $15/hour .. so he charged his friends $15/hour .. they got a great deal and he got some extra money. 
He felt guilty, none the less, but I felt better


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## decoustudio (May 4, 2006)

Zuki, you ask for advice:

First *you *have to decide if your woodworking work is a "ministry", or a "business." I do both types of work, and sometimes the "ministry" woodworking gets a little out of hand, but still I enjoy it and my time doing it, but bills don't stop coming because I'm in "ministry" mode.

Second, *they *have to decide if they want a piece of "art", or a "bed." You make "art", stores sell "beds."

Third, *they *have to decide if they are willing to sacrifice other things they want to have "your" work. I know a guy that spends $15 a day on smokes. Add that up, and he could buy some pretty cool stuff by quitting the smokes, and live longer to boot.

After those decisions have been made, *you * are ready to show some prices.

Sometimes, someone will say, "can I help you build it and reduce the cost?" I say, "hmmm, no, not really, that will double it." I haven't had any helpers since.

I have spent a lot of days in my life calculating costs for projects that never materialized. Nowadays, I throw out a high number that I feel will cover it, and if they are still talking and not coughing, I agree to work on the pricing more and get back with them. I once spent 3 days preparing table designs and costs for a Doctor from Kansas City that stopped by here one time asking for a table. He told me would be back on the "19th" and I was to have all of my sketches and prices ready to talk business. He didn't show back up, and that was 1.5 years ago. Let's see, 30 hours at $40/hour, that just cost me $1200 to do that. I don't make those mistakes nowadays.

My best and most creative works have been for two families that just paid me time and material. I was then freed up to do creative work, instead of worrying over having to "keep moving" on their projects. They got a better product, and I didn't have to sacrifice any of my creative ideas.

The Shop Rate idea is good if you know your costs, but most of us don't, as things change all the time. We think we know, but we really don't. I spent more than $9K on marketing costs last year, but this year I have spent only a few hundred dollars. How do I put that in a shop rate for the next project? Last year I, and the family, were completely healthy. This year I had surgery, and my daughter hasn't been well, going to see a Specialist at $500 a pop, and needing surgery also. How do I figure up a shop rate to cover that? If I could figure it all up and include the "unknowns" I would be charging something about what an attorney does. After all, it takes me longer to learn to do woodworking than an attorney spends in law school, shouldn't that matter to folks? Unfortunately, it doesn't.

The bigger issue than knowing your overheads, is that most of us can't make a good guess at the hours involved for a one-of-a-kind project. I've been doing this stuff for sale for about 10 years now, and I don't feel I have learned much in how long something will take me. The better I get, the more detailed and complicated I seem to make my projects, and so they are all a new adventure. I used to be happy with biscuit jointing, and thought I was doing good work. Then, I got better and started using better joinery, and the hours went up, eventhough I am working faster. Then, I started carving on projects, and it is still a "crap-shoot" on how long something will take.

Without seeing your design, I would throw a gut feel at a bed at about 120 hours of work, $600-$800 in material for domestic standard wood and finishing materials, for instance.

And Fourth, give her a number you will be happy with, and if she says, "no" don't take it personally. It is not an attack on your character, or work, and when you report back what happened to the rest of us, we'll all take off our hats and bow our heads, and support you by saying, "we understand buddy."

My sister bought a China Hutch Top from a warehouse supply close-out special place for $100. She asked me to build a base to match so that she could set the Top up on it. The Top is Chinese factory made, but matching it with a base will cost quite a bit of time and material cost. I felt the base would cost about $8K-$10K to build to match the hutch, so I told her $5K, sort of a compromise between "ministry" and "business." She thought it was too much, and it was. I try not to take it personally also. But, I didn't get anything for the 11 hours I spent designing and estimating and getting material costs all summarized. I have thought about charging for design and estimating costs, but so far havent'. Maybe someday.

Still, I have to find enough "yes's" to pay the bills every day, that's why we live cheap.

A while back a guy told me about a piece of art that sold for "$1600" and that seemed like a lot. In a woodworking business, you have to sell 3-4 of those pieces a month, or you can't survive. Custom Woodworking just costs a lot of money.

Hang in there jock-brother,
Mark


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## shaun (Sep 16, 2007)

LOL Ms Deb. but I think your example illusrates my point exacty. The decision to offer up products/services at discounted rates or even for free should come from the kindness/generosity of the person providing them and not a guilt trip from the person recieving them. I also should have mentioned that anyone who is ripping off their friends/family is a sleeze bag to begin with. But judging from the character of the folks I've experiened on this site so far, that thought had never entered my mind.


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## shaun (Sep 16, 2007)

Zuki - Mark's coments are profound, I think you should take his advice. I learned something from him today.

Thanks Mark!


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## Paul (Mar 13, 2007)

First of all, Mark's answer is excellent and eloquent. And even though I'm not trying to make a living at it (yet), as a hobbyist who is in a learning mode - trying to hone skills to maybe someday make the "jump" to at least make a partial living at it - I've already run into many of the struggles Mark outlines.

I had a high school vocational teacher (electronics) make it little more black and white though. Thirty years ago, he told me that there's two choices for friends, family, etc. - "free" or your "going rate."

He said to push for "free" with family and friends. Now, I think in woodworking you could probably define the partial or full cost of materials and overhead as "free." (Free from paying the person.) Friends and family may have to understand that just materials and overhead will probably often cost more than the discount furniture place! *But his point was to not to devalue yourself, or let anyone else devalue you - your skill, talent and quality of work - (by discounting your "going rate") just because it's for a friend or family member.*

At the time, I thought he was being a bit "arrogant" or "harsh" but the wisdom of his advise has grown on me. Right now, I'm learning alot about how easy it is to underestimate how long it will take to do things (i.e. see my furniture restoration blog) and I'm applying what I'm calling a "student" or "learning experience" hourly rate to my estimates. But, I'm still trying to apply his advise.


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## Dadoo (Jun 23, 2007)

Zuki, psychologically thinking; I really believe you would like to build these bedframes…just not for her. People come to you because they really like what you have done (unmentioned compliment) and to get an idea of what it might cost for their idea to come true. They really have no idea how much wood costs or how many man-hours goes into the project. Hell, bedframes are built by elves and magically appear in furniture stores nationwide! She's got an idea to give these frames as gifts, right? Give her a quick estimate to make her realize what the cost may be and then ask her if she wants you to work out the final bid. Now she'll be in the ballpark pricewise. If she wants to proceed, she'll already know where the final price will fall.

Then give her a set price, no more, no less, and no nickle/diming. And when she mentions another store, tell her "OK, Bye!"


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## schroeder (Feb 8, 2007)

I always quote that it will cost "one dollar more than they are willing to pay…" If nothing else, it gets people thinking what goes into a project…


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## scottb (Jul 21, 2006)

Lots of good advice here… yes, the old adage about friends and money not mixing is a good one. Funny how we seem to shortchange ourselves at the risk of alienating our friends, family, and even strangers. If we told relatives what a project would normally cost, they'd likely balk at the price - do they not think our time is worth what we should be earning? Some of these people may have been the same naysayers when (some of us) quit the day job and hung out our shingle. There are so many great artisans in this state - some are even famous, in our circle, and are living very simply, and paycheck to paycheck (and not retiring), despite having 4 and 5 figure price tags on their work.

In a perfect world our family (which includes our friends) should value our time, just as we value theirs. and if they aren't willing to pay for our services, perhaps some sort of swap can be worked out - that or an open deadline, paid materials, and the freedom to take our time. I'd never think to ask a friend for a free, whatever they make, or do. Like Shaun, I'd plop down my card and let them charge me what they deemed fair. Of course, you could always quote a "friends and family rate" - a number that while profitable, still saves them a few bucks.

When my friend, fresh out of college, and in need of work needed a resume (I'm a graphic designer) he asked me to help him, in exchange for food and beverages. I've also designed a logo for train tickets and a few weeks room and board in France - sure that wasn't cash, but dollar for dollar, was probably my most profitable job ever.

Then again, theres a difference between "can you do me a favor" and "I'd like one of your _"


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## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

and then there's the idea of having a "20% discount" for family and friends… easy to calculate (well, after you get the real cost figured out) and it's "fair" and they will know what to expect…


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## closetguy (Sep 29, 2007)

Do it for cost plus (10, 20, 30% whatever). That way you are assured of recovering your actual material costs and you get a little out of it without worrying about gouging a family member. I don't know if Murphy's law applies but, anytime I discount something, it always ends up costing me more in labor for some reason. Since I do this for a living, I don't discount for family members. To get into my production schedule, you have to pay full price. I know it sounds cold, but I have to eat also….


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## scottb (Jul 21, 2006)

good point closet guy. A friends father bought some property from his dad solely because he met his price. Cold, maybe, but they both came out ahead in the end.

My wifes aunt in a professional artisan, and now has things for sale in some retail locations. Because of her deal with them (selling at double what she sells it to them for) She now cannot undercut the retailers repressenting her… Now to sell at "wholesale" to family wouldn't be wrong, per se… and is still one heck of a discount over what she's supposed to be selling things for - even though it's exactly what she's pulling in.


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## AbeLow (Nov 14, 2007)

A true friend or family wouldn't ask for a "brother-in-law" price because they should realize they are taking money from your family. I'd recommend either doing it for free but only if they realize what goes into the project. Few people really do realize this. Give them an estimate of the time and materials. 
I told my son that anything I build is heirloom/museum quality. If it is something they want to have for only a few years I tell them to buy it at Ikea/Sears/etc. I'll even buy it for them.
"If you have a friend and you lend him $20, and you never see him again - it was worth it."


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## Obi (Oct 19, 2006)

I've under-bid so many things it hurts, but I've learned to ask them exactly what they want, go look one up online, price several of them, tell them you found one simular (quote how much the most expensive one was and where it was located), and see if you can make it for the same price. If they start to choke on the cost, tell them they can go get one at Wal-Mart for $50.00 made of particle board and it will fall apart in 6 months. Again, like Mark said, you are an artist. And as Dick said, bid the materials and add 30%, figure the time and double it.

I made the mistake of telling a friend's niece that I'd make her a bed for $300 and took it in the shorts. Took two weeks & doweled everything. She loved it and I made $100 per week after the cost of the materials.


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## North40 (Oct 17, 2007)

I guess I'm lucky - my family insist on paying full price (I give them a 10% discount anyway).

But I'm amazed at other people's reluctance to spend money. I have a prospective client right now that has had a small, commercially built conference room table for three years. It's falling apart so she wants one built to better match the space, match the colors in the room, and be of a quality that will last more than three years. But she wants a price like she paid three years ago for a piece of junk.

If you do it for less than your normal cost, *be sure to tell your aunt what it would have cost* and ask her to tell people that number when she talks about it. I've done "favor jobs" for people and they go around telling everyone how great my work is - and how cheap! Then I get all these requests for bids from people who want Wal-Mart pricing!


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## RobS (Aug 11, 2006)

I can second Peter's comment, I once put some french doors in for a neighbor at half the cost of labor that a contractor would have charged. A week later another neighbor was inquiring about the same deal. Reluctantly, I turned the second neighbor away, did not want to start a trend. Tricky subject for sure.


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## dalec (Oct 3, 2007)

The issue with doing work for friends and family revolves around their unspoken expectations. If your friends and family are willing to pay full price and clearly state so, it is much more straightforward.

When there is no clarity on what is to be done, how much and by when that hard feelings come up, it gets messy. If you decide to do it, you need to be as clear upfront whether you will do it for free, for the cost of materials or cost of materials and some reduced/full cost for labor. You don't want to come out of this feeling like your relatives took advantage of you. No matter which way you go, you need to feel good about the outcome. Decide however you decide with that outcome in mind.

So much for philosophizing.

Dalec


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## CaptnA (Dec 17, 2007)

A few years ago, a friend of my mother's needed her grass cut and had called mother to ask me to help out. Her regular yard boy couldn't cut her grass as he had broken his leg. As a favor to my mother- this was a "dear family friend" I hauled my mower, weedeater, and blower over and cut her grass. It was a large yard and had been neglected - guess she couldn't find anyone to fill in. When I was done, she offered me a glass of water and presented me with a $5.00 bill. The $5.00 wouldn't cover my gas to haul everything to her house - much less anything else. Poor lady called my mother every day for weeks wondering when I was coming back. I called her and explained to her that I didn't have time - I was a grown man with a full time job and a family. She got mad saying I ought never have done it the first time if I didn't intend to honor the committment… Sheesh try to help someone. ??
Point being I love my family and friends - But if I can't give what they need - they can't afford me - you can't buy family or friends! My family and friends know I'll help them if they need me. But if you want something that is part of my business ( or future business in my case) whether it be time, material, or product - the business part stands. We can work something out but I give what I want when I want to whom I want - if they ask- its business.
I just had to laugh that the aunt wanted the things to give as gifts and assume they were to be from her - sounds too much like my family haha


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## Zuki (Mar 28, 2007)

Great thread. Everyone has excellent points and you are all correct.

Aunt V is actually getting some renovations completed to her house so the beds have gone on the back burner for now.


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## TreeBones (May 21, 2007)

Everyone has good advise. Lucky for back burners. All of my family jobs have had difficult repercussions to deal with later. I now avoid them at all cost. Hand made Christmas gifts helps to save face (for me) if there origaonial requests never come together.


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## Dana (Jan 29, 2008)

I don't want to sound harse. But business is business. I have made pieces for friends and family. I cut them a deal but I can't afford to put 30 hours into something and only cover the cost of supplies. I would starve to death. I did a bench recently for a friend that was 4 inches thick including the legs,...made of cedar,...and woodburned,...not to mention the time of sanding, cutting, putting together,..and putting polyurethane coating,......I sold it to him for $350 when I could have gotten about $800 for it. But he was still happy with it. Sometimes it is best not to mix business with family and friends.


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## BigTim (Jan 17, 2008)

My Brother-in-law asked me to build him 4 matching tables a few years ago. He had seen a coffee table he liked in a furniture shop. but it wasn't *quite* the right size or finish, plus the matching pieces were not available. I worked up a quote & he did the whole "what are you talking about!--That's 3 times what they want forit in a real store!" After I explained the difference between some guy making $8.00 an hour(or less) stuffing wood into a machine all day ,making 1000 of matching parts so some other guy can screw (or if your lucky) dowel it together to make a table, & me sorting thru piles of wood in a cold lumberyard to find just the right boards to handcraft the one of a kind piece of FINE furniture he was looking for with mortice & tennon joints & 8 different types of finish on scrap wood of his choosing. He did the right thing & ordered 3 tables.

Another way to deal with family that want one of you products is donate it to a local charity that is holding an auction. I once donated a small accent lamp to my Mother-in-law's church. & two sister-in-laws held a spirited bidding war till one gave in & "let" the other one win. The "looser" then came to me & asked me to build her one--for the same price. Works for me. A tax deduction & a sale--at more than wholesale, and two happy in-laws.

I've used several was to deal with the friends an family discount "problem". Now that I have a price structure on most of my work, I usually offer my wholesale price, or on smaller items, give them as Christmas gifts.

I think it's every woodworkers job to teach any potential customer the true cost of fine woodworking. That includes Family & friends


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## toolman409 (Jan 28, 2009)

I see this gets lots of looks even tho it has been up for over a year.

*The Woodworker's Guide to Pricing Your Work* by Dan Ramsey - '95, '01, '05. I found this book helpful. It even makes a suggestion on how to deal with family/friends when you are in business to make a living at woodworking.

The book suggests you set a policy and stick to it. Like, "I give family and friends a 15% discount with the understanding you will bring me a new client." Sometimes they do it.

When people I know find out I am now doing woodworking, and they ask me if I can make them a whatever, I ask them if they can buy what they want as a manufactured item. If they say they can, I suggest they do that because I can not compete price wise with manufactured items. If they want a special finish or size to fit in a special place, etc. and they place a value on having a custom piece, well then…...I will try to do business.

I am going to start charging a $50 minimum to prepare estimates. Probably up to $150 for pieces that require substantial design/drawing time. It is really hard to get what you need out of some clients to zero in on what they want. It may take several meetings.

Getting the client to participate in the design does two things. It helps them develop ownership and it gives you more confidence (them too) that you are building what the client desires.

Wishing success and enjoyment to all.
God Bless.


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## marcb (May 5, 2008)

*Third, they have to decide if they are willing to sacrifice other things they want to have "your" work. I know a guy that spends $15 a day on smokes. Add that up, and he could buy some pretty cool stuff by quitting the smokes, and live longer to boot.*

That's how I got 1/2 my shop. When we quit me and my wife kept the cigarette money in the budget. At the end of the week I plopped my extra into the piggy bank. Mine was only 4 bucks a day or so but it added up pretty quick. Nice to be able to run out and buy a good 60 buck Freud blade every couple weeks or whatever.


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## jm540 (Jan 14, 2009)

If you like aunt v and like making the bed give her the price plus a nice tool you want tell her you will do it at a this rediculous low rate just for her and you *need the tool*. If she agrees your gold she feels like you did it for free for her she gave you something you *needed* as a tip, the wife won't be after the money or give you grief about the new tool and you can save your tool budget money for the month.

Aunt V will tell her friends what a great product you have and how well it is made and it is custom to impress and she now has emotional stock in your buisiness.

My first comission was for my grandmother in law for a gift to her son(the do it yourselfer). Penny pinching wife of the ultimate this is what is wrong, gift to I can do it better. *GREAT * She asked me how much I made them to sell for, I told Her, She said I want 4, I said 2x the time it would take, she said great I delivered them sweating balls threw in 2 rough tables made from the scraps. She paid full retail I'm not retailing them I'm triing wholsale. They were fliping all of them these are the greatest, quality comfort.

I just got 6 more units at ful pop from her!
if the paint chips i'll go get them and say do you want a new color, if they break I'll replace em for free with a big smile and probably something else for free


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## WIwoodworker (Apr 10, 2008)

For me it's an easy answer. If they want me to build them something I'll make it when I have the time. They would all expect to pay for the materials but I wouldn't charge them for my labor. If you make gifts for your family as well then they become your biggest fans and they tell all their friends and co-workers what great work you do.

That said, I am truly blessed with a generous and giving family. This Spring/Summer I'm going to do a tear off and re-shingle my house. I'm not asking for their help but they're asking me when they can come to help. Keep in mind it's a 6 hour drive for them just to get here. And I have no doubt they'll drag a couple cousins with them as well.

So for me it all works out and I would never dream of charging them for anything.

Peace


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## Hacksaw (Feb 26, 2009)

My family and friends I have the same policy…I will build it but you will help.Most of the time it amounts to them watching,getting bored pushing the broom,and finally seeing what actually goes into the project.I have done projects for friends in the past where I charge cost for materials but I get 25% more materials than needed and a tool i've wanted wheteher required for the project or not.Whatever I would charge friends would be gone before the ink dried on the check so by doing it that way I have a lasting reminder of the project and a tool I didn't have before.


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## Madcow (Feb 25, 2009)

I read an article about this a while back and while it was a little superficial it might help. It assumes that you are reasonably efficient with your time. It went like this, project what you think an hour of your time is worth and back your way into the number of hours you anticipipate the job will take. Then the article said that you should buy new router bits, blades, etc for the project and add in those costs.

My practice is that I will only sell those items that I built to please myself and then, only after they are completed. No deadlines, no quotes, no hassles.


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## Taigert (Nov 20, 2007)

Zuki,
The only words I can offer you is what I do. For family I make it a gift as far as my labor go's. I try to get my material covered, unless it's for Mom or the wife. Then I just smile!
I have been doing some kitchen chairs for my father in Law. Well my wife jumped me the other day because I haven't got them finished yet, and I have been playing with them for 3 or 4 months now. I have being trying to work on them between money making jobs. To keep the peace now I am having to make them a priority to get them out of the shop, Pronto!
Isn't family great!

Good Luck


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## Brat700 (Mar 16, 2009)

I think I would go with being to busy, no matter what you charge them is to much as they think you should enjoy working in your shop and they are giving you something to do


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