# Arts & Crafts Dining Room Set



## CaptainSkully (Aug 28, 2008)

*Test Drive*

The first installment of this blog is here due to LJ blogging technical issues…

To make sure the dimensions are correct for our new table, we decided to do a little test drive. It didn't hurt that we're having eight people over for a Fourth of July BBQ. We ran over to the big box store and bought a sheet of particle board for $29. When we got it home, I cut it down to 45" x 72", the finished dimensions of the table top. After I sanded it and eased the edges, we spun our little table around and centered it in the dining room. It's a lot bigger than I was expecting, but I'm getting used to it. It fits eight comfortably. My girlfriend likes it, although when it's just the two of us, it'll seem a bit large. The good news is that the wine barrel end lazy susan I'm planning on building will look quite nice in the middle of it. I'll be heading down to San Jose to make a major lumber purchase soon. I'm still going with Schroeder's Rodel design.


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## CaptainSkully (Aug 28, 2008)

*Template Adjustment*

So, we decided that 72" was a bit overpowering. I yanked the pseudo-top out into the garage and cut a foot off, and then to preserve the Golden Ratio (we just watched a documentary about the Parthenon), cut the width down to 37". This size is much better, and is more amenable to placing a Limbert Lamp Table or sideboard in the dining area. It seats six comfortably instead of eight, but we'd rather setup another table or TV trays instead of having a monolithic table 24/7. This size is also much more acceptable for just the two of us, without vast expanses of table top unused. Albeit, this may impinge on my wine barrel top lazy susan plans. C'est la vie…


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

CaptainSkully said:


> *Template Adjustment*
> 
> So, we decided that 72" was a bit overpowering. I yanked the pseudo-top out into the garage and cut a foot off, and then to preserve the Golden Ratio (we just watched a documentary about the Parthenon), cut the width down to 37". This size is much better, and is more amenable to placing a Limbert Lamp Table or sideboard in the dining area. It seats six comfortably instead of eight, but we'd rather setup another table or TV trays instead of having a monolithic table 24/7. This size is also much more acceptable for just the two of us, without vast expanses of table top unused. Albeit, this may impinge on my wine barrel top lazy susan plans. C'est la vie…


look forward to photos


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## CaptainSkully (Aug 28, 2008)

*Rationalized Need*



After working in the Valley for a couple of weeks, I decided to spend some of my harder than I thought earned money to get a mortising machine. I settled on the DELTA 14-651 because of its Amazon reviews and price point ($289). I would've loved to get the Powermatic, but that would've taken another year to justify ($480).

I rationalized that with all of the mortises that I'll need for the dining room table, that this additional expense will pay itself off on this one project when you figure all of the time I'll save not dulling my Narex chisels. It was a lot heavier than I expected. I used to have a cheap Chicago mortiser, but it wouldn't cut butter. It was rather late in the evening when I started assembly, so I was a little tired and the directions were just unclear enough to confuse me for a bit. I got it all put together and working and cut a nice little mortise in a piece of scrap walnut. Other than the fence and bit weren't square to each other, it worked pretty well. Once I get up and running with it, I'll post a more thorough review in the proper location.

I've been waiting a long time to get a mortising machine, but with the potential for a lot of pegged picture frames and the table w/ six chairs coming down the pike, I thought it made sense. Luckily, I have a microwave stand out in the garage that I will be able to attach it to as a dedicated station.

Wish me luck!


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## CaptainSkully (Aug 28, 2008)

*Change of Plans?*

Thanks in large part to WhatTheChuck, I'm giving serious thought to changing the design of the underbody of the table. With all due respect to Schroeder's table, which I prefer the looks of in many ways, I think the lack of a footrest underneath is a good thing, and the spindles underneath are magnificent, yet kind of a waste of time, energy, effort, and lumber as they'll be hidden by chairs. I think the trestle-style design might be more pragmatic, and still embody the simplicity and elegance that I'm striving for. It looks like I'll still be making the Rodel chairs, which I guess in some way completes the set (but without the fillers in the back splat).







Cool video of Kevin Rodel making the back splat of his chair on Finewoodworking.com


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## gizmodyne (Mar 15, 2007)

CaptainSkully said:


> *Change of Plans?*
> 
> Thanks in large part to WhatTheChuck, I'm giving serious thought to changing the design of the underbody of the table. With all due respect to Schroeder's table, which I prefer the looks of in many ways, I think the lack of a footrest underneath is a good thing, and the spindles underneath are magnificent, yet kind of a waste of time, energy, effort, and lumber as they'll be hidden by chairs. I think the trestle-style design might be more pragmatic, and still embody the simplicity and elegance that I'm striving for. It looks like I'll still be making the Rodel chairs, which I guess in some way completes the set (but without the fillers in the back splat).
> 
> ...


I think both designs are interesting. I don't think that the long rail functions as a footrest. You can't even reach it with your feet on mine. Also, you can sit eight easily at my Stickey Table


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

CaptainSkully said:


> *Change of Plans?*
> 
> Thanks in large part to WhatTheChuck, I'm giving serious thought to changing the design of the underbody of the table. With all due respect to Schroeder's table, which I prefer the looks of in many ways, I think the lack of a footrest underneath is a good thing, and the spindles underneath are magnificent, yet kind of a waste of time, energy, effort, and lumber as they'll be hidden by chairs. I think the trestle-style design might be more pragmatic, and still embody the simplicity and elegance that I'm striving for. It looks like I'll still be making the Rodel chairs, which I guess in some way completes the set (but without the fillers in the back splat).
> 
> ...


I prefer the trestle style also.


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## CaptainSkully (Aug 28, 2008)

CaptainSkully said:


> *Change of Plans?*
> 
> Thanks in large part to WhatTheChuck, I'm giving serious thought to changing the design of the underbody of the table. With all due respect to Schroeder's table, which I prefer the looks of in many ways, I think the lack of a footrest underneath is a good thing, and the spindles underneath are magnificent, yet kind of a waste of time, energy, effort, and lumber as they'll be hidden by chairs. I think the trestle-style design might be more pragmatic, and still embody the simplicity and elegance that I'm striving for. It looks like I'll still be making the Rodel chairs, which I guess in some way completes the set (but without the fillers in the back splat).
> 
> ...


I should probably post this design by Rex Alexander as my other choice:



It's a free plan on FWW. I'm going to print it out and compare the design to Kevin Rodel's. Luckily, I still have time to decide. To date, I've only made the template for the Rodel chair.


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## CaptainSkully (Aug 28, 2008)

*Slight Change of Plans*

Just a short update. While surfing plans, as I am wont to do, I stumbled across these trestle table plans. I didn't give much thought to it, as it's a bit too modern for me, but when I looked at the detailed preview, I saw something quite interesting. The plans include a leaf extension system that will work perfectly with my oversized breadboard ends. This means that I can make a table that seats six and with just a bit more work, seat eight.


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## Jimi_C (Jul 17, 2009)

CaptainSkully said:


> *Slight Change of Plans*
> 
> Just a short update. While surfing plans, as I am wont to do, I stumbled across these trestle table plans. I didn't give much thought to it, as it's a bit too modern for me, but when I looked at the detailed preview, I saw something quite interesting. The plans include a leaf extension system that will work perfectly with my oversized breadboard ends. This means that I can make a table that seats six and with just a bit more work, seat eight.


If you made swing-out legs, you could even make the extensions long enough that it'd go from seating 6 to seating 10. That is a neat design, and simpler (and more structurally sound), I think, than having the table split in the middle.


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## edreher (Feb 3, 2009)

CaptainSkully said:


> *Slight Change of Plans*
> 
> Just a short update. While surfing plans, as I am wont to do, I stumbled across these trestle table plans. I didn't give much thought to it, as it's a bit too modern for me, but when I looked at the detailed preview, I saw something quite interesting. The plans include a leaf extension system that will work perfectly with my oversized breadboard ends. This means that I can make a table that seats six and with just a bit more work, seat eight.


I'll let you learn first, because that's what I wish to do down the road as well.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

CaptainSkully said:


> *Slight Change of Plans*
> 
> Just a short update. While surfing plans, as I am wont to do, I stumbled across these trestle table plans. I didn't give much thought to it, as it's a bit too modern for me, but when I looked at the detailed preview, I saw something quite interesting. The plans include a leaf extension system that will work perfectly with my oversized breadboard ends. This means that I can make a table that seats six and with just a bit more work, seat eight.


interesting aproach


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## jockmike2 (Oct 10, 2006)

CaptainSkully said:


> *Slight Change of Plans*
> 
> Just a short update. While surfing plans, as I am wont to do, I stumbled across these trestle table plans. I didn't give much thought to it, as it's a bit too modern for me, but when I looked at the detailed preview, I saw something quite interesting. The plans include a leaf extension system that will work perfectly with my oversized breadboard ends. This means that I can make a table that seats six and with just a bit more work, seat eight.


Nice looking table too.


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## patron (Apr 2, 2009)

CaptainSkully said:


> *Slight Change of Plans*
> 
> Just a short update. While surfing plans, as I am wont to do, I stumbled across these trestle table plans. I didn't give much thought to it, as it's a bit too modern for me, but when I looked at the detailed preview, I saw something quite interesting. The plans include a leaf extension system that will work perfectly with my oversized breadboard ends. This means that I can make a table that seats six and with just a bit more work, seat eight.


nice approach to an old problem ,
and the footprint stays the same !
thanks .
keep us posted .


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## CaptainSkully (Aug 28, 2008)

*The Hard Part*

So, today I ran over to Plywood & Lumber Sales in Oakland, CA and purchased about 100 board feet of quartersawn white oak. I finally have enough lumber to do the dining table. I'm going to start with the top and get that finished so I can bring it into the dining room and set it on top of my old table. This will get rid of the MDF table top we've been using for months. It'll also let me use the MDF for more important things like jigs. I also abhor the tablecloth we've been using to cover up the MDF. Now that the Limbert Table is about done, I can focus on the top over the next week. It'll have breadboard ends and ebony splines/plugs, I just don't know about Schroeder's base or Rodel's. I think Rogowski has a nice design too. Sigh…


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## matt1970 (Mar 28, 2007)

CaptainSkully said:


> *The Hard Part*
> 
> So, today I ran over to Plywood & Lumber Sales in Oakland, CA and purchased about 100 board feet of quartersawn white oak. I finally have enough lumber to do the dining table. I'm going to start with the top and get that finished so I can bring it into the dining room and set it on top of my old table. This will get rid of the MDF table top we've been using for months. It'll also let me use the MDF for more important things like jigs. I also abhor the tablecloth we've been using to cover up the MDF. Now that the Limbert Table is about done, I can focus on the top over the next week. It'll have breadboard ends and ebony splines/plugs, I just don't know about Schroeder's base or Rodel's. I think Rogowski has a nice design too. Sigh…


hey--add a link to those guys designs so we can take a look and help you decide--lol…

I FINALLY GOT TO MACBEATHS in Berkeley and it was fun…I had wife and toddler's in tow since we were on the way to the oakland zoo…but i still had fun….its not too far from napa…especially on a saturday morning…and maybe next time I will add PALS…


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## CaptainSkully (Aug 28, 2008)

CaptainSkully said:


> *The Hard Part*
> 
> So, today I ran over to Plywood & Lumber Sales in Oakland, CA and purchased about 100 board feet of quartersawn white oak. I finally have enough lumber to do the dining table. I'm going to start with the top and get that finished so I can bring it into the dining room and set it on top of my old table. This will get rid of the MDF table top we've been using for months. It'll also let me use the MDF for more important things like jigs. I also abhor the tablecloth we've been using to cover up the MDF. Now that the Limbert Table is about done, I can focus on the top over the next week. It'll have breadboard ends and ebony splines/plugs, I just don't know about Schroeder's base or Rodel's. I think Rogowski has a nice design too. Sigh…


Dude! I live like a block from the zoo. Next time, we gotta hook up! I'll add the links in the morning.


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## CaptainSkully (Aug 28, 2008)

CaptainSkully said:


> *The Hard Part*
> 
> So, today I ran over to Plywood & Lumber Sales in Oakland, CA and purchased about 100 board feet of quartersawn white oak. I finally have enough lumber to do the dining table. I'm going to start with the top and get that finished so I can bring it into the dining room and set it on top of my old table. This will get rid of the MDF table top we've been using for months. It'll also let me use the MDF for more important things like jigs. I also abhor the tablecloth we've been using to cover up the MDF. Now that the Limbert Table is about done, I can focus on the top over the next week. It'll have breadboard ends and ebony splines/plugs, I just don't know about Schroeder's base or Rodel's. I think Rogowski has a nice design too. Sigh…


OK, as promised, here are the links to the various designs I'm mulling over. I think I can still go ahead and laminate the four-sided quartersawn legs.

Schroeder's Table based on a Rex Alexander design (I'm concerned about the footrest):


Kevin Rodel's desk (can be slightly modified to make a trestle table):
#

Gizmodyne's Stickley #622 dining table (wanted something a bit fancier):


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## CaptainSkully (Aug 28, 2008)

*I have promises to keep, and miles to go before I sleep...*

When I bought the $500 worth of quartersawn white oak a few months ago, I promised my girlfriend that I'd make a dining table for Thanksgiving. We had to run down to the Caribbean for a business trip over Turkey Day (don't cry for me), so we fried a turkey the weekend before. Long story short, Christmas and New Years came and went and we're still serving it up on the MDF mock up. Sigh… I found an unexpected week off between sailing lessons (I've got 20 days worth in January, so much for the off-season), so I got myself all jazzed to make progress on the dining room table.









^ I busted out all the QSWO I had and selected the best pieces for the top, then I arranged them according to medullary ray flake, color, grain, etc. with the help of my furry supervisor.









^ I was dreading the glue up until I remembered that I read on here somewhere that you don't have to glue up all the boards at once (duh!). I did one seam at a time and was able to control things (with the help of the "persuader"). It took all night to do all of the glue ups, but the end result was the largest, and best table top I've ever done. I no longer use biscuits for these kinds of glue-ups because for some reason they have caused me more alignment problems than they solve.

I flipped the table over and sanded the joints until the entire top looks practically like one huge slab. I bought 5/4 and only planed the top surface to leave it as thick as possible yet still achieve uniform thickness.

Then there was the breadboard ends. I thought I was going to make fixed ends, but we made an executive decision to make it expandable, so I ran off to the woodworking store and got some hardware for just such an occasion. I was rather proud of the tongue I milled into the top of the table (I offset it to make the breadboard end top as thick as possible. We also decided on a completely flush top (ala Kevin Rodel), so the placemats would sit flat. Needless to say, I had to cut my tongue off and then use a straight edge to trim it flush with the router.









^ I made a template for the router to plow out the notches in the breadboard ends necessary to seat the slider bars deep enough for strength, but tucked back enough so you wouldn't necessarily see it unless you were looking. I taped everything to reduce chipout and was relatively successful. I bought 8/4 for the breadboard ends specifically so I wouldn't have to glue up a thicker board and stare at the seams. The proportions turned out amazing. The field of the table is beefy enough for the size (38" x 62" = Golden Ratio), and the ends give it enough mass to feel solid. I used all of my safety gear when cutting the 8/4 stock. It made me considerably more confident.









^ I then had to make the brackets for the sliding bars to slide through. I made the sliders thick enough to bear the weight of the leaves, so I had to make the brackets large enough to handle the sliders. I drilled a large diameter hole in the inside corner to reduce splitting (splitting is inversely proportional to the radius of the intersection) and milled the rest out. Doing anything eight times is tedious. I had to focus on safety as what's left of my fingers were very close to the blade.









^ Here you see my sliding expanding table in all it's raging glory. I think it might actually work. I glued the pads to the underside of the table to match the thickness of the breadboard ends, which make the hardware line up. I could've routed a notch into the breadboard ends deep enough so the bottom would be flush with the bottom of the field, but I didn't want to undermine the solidity of the ends.

Tomorrow is more sanding, some small tweaking, and laying out the base onto the bottom of the top. Because of the way I jury-rigged everything to make the breadboard ends slide out, I need to lay out the 4"x4" legs, aprons, etc. to make sure nothing interferes with the sliding mechanism. To complicate matters further, I learned from my old apartment table that you need to make sure two chairs can fit easily between the legs, side by side. As a result, I'm going to lay out the leg spacing very carefully. Of course that is completely determinded by which base I'm going to make. I guess I'll make that permanent decision tomorrow morning over coffee and my daily LJ's fix. Sigh…

Unless some cosmic event interferes, I'll be using the formula that I used to finish the pagoda tile frame. I'm hoping the table will look instantly like it's a hundred years old.


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## rustfever (May 3, 2009)

CaptainSkully said:


> *I have promises to keep, and miles to go before I sleep...*
> 
> When I bought the $500 worth of quartersawn white oak a few months ago, I promised my girlfriend that I'd make a dining table for Thanksgiving. We had to run down to the Caribbean for a business trip over Turkey Day (don't cry for me), so we fried a turkey the weekend before. Long story short, Christmas and New Years came and went and we're still serving it up on the MDF mock up. Sigh… I found an unexpected week off between sailing lessons (I've got 20 days worth in January, so much for the off-season), so I got myself all jazzed to make progress on the dining room table.
> 
> ...


WOW. looking great. I will interested in following you progress

I recently found this site. It explains many of the 'Do and Don'ts' of dining room table construction, includng measurements. 
http://www.tablelegs.com/WoodworkingPlansAndArticles/DiningTableDesignBasics.aspx

When you are done, please post final pic's and report…..As I must start my first dining room table this spring.


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## jockmike2 (Oct 10, 2006)

CaptainSkully said:


> *I have promises to keep, and miles to go before I sleep...*
> 
> When I bought the $500 worth of quartersawn white oak a few months ago, I promised my girlfriend that I'd make a dining table for Thanksgiving. We had to run down to the Caribbean for a business trip over Turkey Day (don't cry for me), so we fried a turkey the weekend before. Long story short, Christmas and New Years came and went and we're still serving it up on the MDF mock up. Sigh… I found an unexpected week off between sailing lessons (I've got 20 days worth in January, so much for the off-season), so I got myself all jazzed to make progress on the dining room table.
> 
> ...


Good luck looks good so far. Long way to go yet though. Like I said good luck.


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## CaptainSkully (Aug 28, 2008)

CaptainSkully said:


> *I have promises to keep, and miles to go before I sleep...*
> 
> When I bought the $500 worth of quartersawn white oak a few months ago, I promised my girlfriend that I'd make a dining table for Thanksgiving. We had to run down to the Caribbean for a business trip over Turkey Day (don't cry for me), so we fried a turkey the weekend before. Long story short, Christmas and New Years came and went and we're still serving it up on the MDF mock up. Sigh… I found an unexpected week off between sailing lessons (I've got 20 days worth in January, so much for the off-season), so I got myself all jazzed to make progress on the dining room table.
> 
> ...


Thanks Rustfever. Lots of good info on that site. I had an ergonomics class in college that really helped my woodworking designs.


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## matt1970 (Mar 28, 2007)

CaptainSkully said:


> *I have promises to keep, and miles to go before I sleep...*
> 
> When I bought the $500 worth of quartersawn white oak a few months ago, I promised my girlfriend that I'd make a dining table for Thanksgiving. We had to run down to the Caribbean for a business trip over Turkey Day (don't cry for me), so we fried a turkey the weekend before. Long story short, Christmas and New Years came and went and we're still serving it up on the MDF mock up. Sigh… I found an unexpected week off between sailing lessons (I've got 20 days worth in January, so much for the off-season), so I got myself all jazzed to make progress on the dining room table.
> 
> ...


finally catching up…looks good…


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## Russel (Aug 13, 2007)

CaptainSkully said:


> *I have promises to keep, and miles to go before I sleep...*
> 
> When I bought the $500 worth of quartersawn white oak a few months ago, I promised my girlfriend that I'd make a dining table for Thanksgiving. We had to run down to the Caribbean for a business trip over Turkey Day (don't cry for me), so we fried a turkey the weekend before. Long story short, Christmas and New Years came and went and we're still serving it up on the MDF mock up. Sigh… I found an unexpected week off between sailing lessons (I've got 20 days worth in January, so much for the off-season), so I got myself all jazzed to make progress on the dining room table.
> 
> ...


Looking good, and I'm really enjoying your process descrption. I'm also really sorry that you had to go to the Caribbean. ;-)


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## CaptainSkully (Aug 28, 2008)

*Welcome to the Big Top*

So, I decided to go with the Kevin Rodel Taliesin desk design as my table base. This involved a couple of hours of laying out. I had to account for leg room on the overhangs at the ends, I had to account for chair room on the long sides, I wanted 4" x 4" legs to balance the 3 3/4" breadboard ends, decent overhang on the sides, and this all had to miss the crap I'd already glued to the bottom of the table to make the sliders work. Whew! Like I said, it took several iterations. The saving grace is that the Rodel chairs I'll most probably be making next are trapezoidal in plan view, meaning they don't need the full width to clear the legs because the wide part will be tucked in toward the middle of the table. This is why you design stuff BEFORE you start cutting wood.
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.
.
I slapped some sanding sealer on the underside of the table to keep the wood from moving as much (which looked so nice it made me second guess my choice of finish) and I cut the pyramids on the ends of the breadboard ends. Since I stupidly glued the sliders to the breadboard ends, it was immensely more difficult to pull this off. I ended up making it happen with just a bit of sanding to smooth out the end grain.

Another "design modification" came up when I realized I wouldn't be able to mortise the ebony splines into the breadboard ends with my mortising machine because of the sliders. We decided that on such a dark finish, the ebony wouldn't show very well. I actually like the clean look of the plain ends.
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^ Here's the table leaf extension showing. It's actually pretty sturdy. I never realized how long 12" was until I had to cantilever it (12" is not shown here).


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## CaptainSkully (Aug 28, 2008)

*My New Stickley Finish!*

So I followed the recipe I synthesized for the pagoda tile frame and applied it to the top and breadboard ends. It turned out amazing! It looks like something right out of an antique store. Here's the progression:
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^ TransTint "Dark Mission Brown" aniline dye in isopropyl alcohol only (with flash on = more red).
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^ Same with flash off (see how muddy it looks)
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^ One coat of Zinser amber shellac (1 pound cut). Man shellac is a pain to work with. Once you paint it on, there's no going back over it with a quick touch up or tipping it off. It gets tacky as soon as the denatured alcohol evaporates and stays that way until it cures hard.
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^ One coat of Antique Walnut gel stain. Really makes it rich looking and highlights the grain tinted by the shellac. This one was taken with the flash, which makes it a bit bright red. The gel stain goes on really muddy looking. When you start to wipe/blend it, it really lets the grain show through nicely.
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^ Same finish taken without the flash. You can really see how deep and rich the finish is. Like I said, It looks 100 years old already.

So I messed up on the shellac and had to do a repair job. Then I messed up on the gel stain (almost in the same place, and for the same reason), so I'm going to let it cure rock hard, then address my boo boo. Overall, I'm ecstatic with the finish. It's easy and authentic looking. I just need to learn patience. I wonder how long that's going to take…

Next, I'm off to work on the leaves and the base. The leaves are already milled and glued, so I just need to cross-cut them and finish them to match. I'm taking extra precautions to avoid chipout. The base will be a modified version of the Rodel Taliesin desk. More about that in our next exciting episode…


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## noknot (Dec 23, 2008)

CaptainSkully said:


> *My New Stickley Finish!*
> 
> So I followed the recipe I synthesized for the pagoda tile frame and applied it to the top and breadboard ends. It turned out amazing! It looks like something right out of an antique store. Here's the progression:
> .
> ...


looks nice


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## tbone (Apr 24, 2008)

CaptainSkully said:


> *My New Stickley Finish!*
> 
> So I followed the recipe I synthesized for the pagoda tile frame and applied it to the top and breadboard ends. It turned out amazing! It looks like something right out of an antique store. Here's the progression:
> .
> ...


Thanks for the lesson CaptainSkully. That's a finish that I might try on my latest project. I'm just now figuring out tints and dyes. So your blog is timely and informative.


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## CaptainSkully (Aug 28, 2008)

CaptainSkully said:


> *My New Stickley Finish!*
> 
> So I followed the recipe I synthesized for the pagoda tile frame and applied it to the top and breadboard ends. It turned out amazing! It looks like something right out of an antique store. Here's the progression:
> .
> ...


Glad I could help someone whose work I respect so much. I'm right down the street from Craftsman Home in Berkeley, so I have a readily available resource for authentic Stickley finishes and this recipe is spot on.


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## CaptainSkully (Aug 28, 2008)

CaptainSkully said:


> *My New Stickley Finish!*
> 
> So I followed the recipe I synthesized for the pagoda tile frame and applied it to the top and breadboard ends. It turned out amazing! It looks like something right out of an antique store. Here's the progression:
> .
> ...


I just had an interesting conversation with my father-in-law, who's a non-LJ woodworker (for some reason). He brought up an interesting point about using alcohol-based shellac on top of alcohol-based aniline dye, which would explain the softening/smearing effect I've seen. Looks like I might have to use distilled water for the dye. Hmmm…


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## matt1970 (Mar 28, 2007)

CaptainSkully said:


> *My New Stickley Finish!*
> 
> So I followed the recipe I synthesized for the pagoda tile frame and applied it to the top and breadboard ends. It turned out amazing! It looks like something right out of an antique store. Here's the progression:
> .
> ...


Craftsman Home site looks cool! Definitely inspirational…


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## CaptainSkully (Aug 28, 2008)

*Make Like a Tree & Leaves*

I was able to successfully refinish my boo boos on the breadboard ends. I also sanded the leaves and finished them at the same time. The ends had a bit more stain to start with (from the previous finish), but they both came out looking great. I'm really glad I learned my lesson on shellac. BTW, it did a bit of redistributing of the aniline dye, so I had to quickly blend/tip it before it got tacky. I missed a couple of spots on one leaf but was able to blend it in with the gel stain. Only I'll know why that splotch is there. The grain really shows through nicely if you rub the gel stain out with a clean cloth. If the cloth gets saturated, it stays a bit muddy looking.
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^ The differential you see in the photo is partly flash, but mostly the light fixture above the table. The real look is somewhere in between the overexposed grain on the right and the dark grain on the left. It looks really good under our mica dining lamp. I will be replacing that ASAP.

I used my random orbital sander to remove the faulty finish. I didn't realize until I made the Limbert lamp table that the ROS creates so many swirls in the wood. It's actually pretty inconvenient and relatively difficult to remove. I increased grit a couple of times, then used a cabinet scraper to get it all out. Geesh…

So, I'll be putting on several coats of a water-based urethane that's originally intended for marine use, but will make a bullet-proof (and more importantly water-proof) finish. I used it on my old dining table, and you have to hit it with a hammer to ding it. The manufacturer says they use it on gymnasium floors. Good enough for me. I hate having to worry about coasters, especially at the dinner table.

After that, it's time to start working on the base. I'll probably bust out my new 45* lock miter bit and make some 4" x 4" legs. I used up a lot of extra lumber making the expansion stuff and the leaves, so I might have to run back over to Plywood and Lumber Supply to get a bit more QSWO. I'm actually pretty happy with my decision to go with the Rodel design. I just need to make sure there's room to tuck your feet in under the ends.


----------



## matt1970 (Mar 28, 2007)

CaptainSkully said:


> *Make Like a Tree & Leaves*
> 
> I was able to successfully refinish my boo boos on the breadboard ends. I also sanded the leaves and finished them at the same time. The ends had a bit more stain to start with (from the previous finish), but they both came out looking great. I'm really glad I learned my lesson on shellac. BTW, it did a bit of redistributing of the aniline dye, so I had to quickly blend/tip it before it got tacky. I missed a couple of spots on one leaf but was able to blend it in with the gel stain. Only I'll know why that splotch is there. The grain really shows through nicely if you rub the gel stain out with a clean cloth. If the cloth gets saturated, it stays a bit muddy looking.
> .
> ...


keep on truckin


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## Dez (Mar 28, 2007)

CaptainSkully said:


> *Make Like a Tree & Leaves*
> 
> I was able to successfully refinish my boo boos on the breadboard ends. I also sanded the leaves and finished them at the same time. The ends had a bit more stain to start with (from the previous finish), but they both came out looking great. I'm really glad I learned my lesson on shellac. BTW, it did a bit of redistributing of the aniline dye, so I had to quickly blend/tip it before it got tacky. I missed a couple of spots on one leaf but was able to blend it in with the gel stain. Only I'll know why that splotch is there. The grain really shows through nicely if you rub the gel stain out with a clean cloth. If the cloth gets saturated, it stays a bit muddy looking.
> .
> ...


Nicely done!


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## CaptainSkully (Aug 28, 2008)

*Next Step...*










So, the new top is in daily use. I put seven or eight coats of Bristol Finish water-based polyurethane on it. It's a marine varnish for boat interiors, which I used on my old table, and it's pretty impervious. No coasters required! It's still sitting on top of the mock-up MDF and the old table, so it's pretty high.

I was going to start on the Rodel Taliesin base next, but since I made the leaves, I don't have enough lumber to make the base, or the money right now to get more lumber. My thought was to make the prototype chair next. This will use less wood, and let me make all of my mistakes on the first chair. Then I can make the other five in a batch. Right now, we're using pakka wood (from the rubber tree) chairs bought online and assembled. They're pretty crappy, but suffice.

My girlfriend is concerned that I might "forget" about building the base because her Dad is still working on his kitchen cabinets after ten years. I assured her this wouldn't be the case with me, I just would rather optimize what I have to work with than lay out a few hundred more bucks right now.

So, if I pull the trigger, I'll be starting the rather popular Rodel chair next. I didn't bother getting full-size plans because they're pretty linear. The first step will be to make the templates for the back legs. Once I'm comfortable with how that looks, I'll be able to start some glue-ups to achieve my required thickness. There are lots of little pieces that can be made in between the bigger, more complicated pieces.

As I've said before, I'm going to leave out the filler strips between the back splat spindles. I think this will give them a lighter look and offset the monolithic look of the table.

I'm pretty darn excited about starting this phase of the project. The old chairs look horrible next to the new table top. I've never made chairs before, so this will be a quantum leap in my woodworking. I can only envision the rickety, crooked monstrosity that I'm going to pour hours of blood, sweat, and tears into. The good news is that I think I'm being smart about making the single prototype first and making all my mistakes on that one. I'll try to post the process, good and bad, as I go. Wish me luck!


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## schroeder (Feb 8, 2007)

CaptainSkully said:


> *Next Step...*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looking Great Scully! - I really like the extra leaf design. Looking forward to seeing your chairs!

Schroeder


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## mtkate (Apr 18, 2009)

CaptainSkully said:


> *Next Step...*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Chairs…. I think I better follow your blog! One of those dreams of mine currently unfulfilled - to build a chair.


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## matt1970 (Mar 28, 2007)

CaptainSkully said:


> *Next Step...*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


the table looks fantastic…


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## OutPutter (Jun 23, 2007)

CaptainSkully said:


> *Next Step...*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi Captain,

I just read through your blog on the table so far and it was wonderful. I'm sure you'll do fine on the chairs and maybe you'll get to use your Delta mortiser too.

Best,


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

CaptainSkully said:


> *Next Step...*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good work, next up chairs?


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## CaptainSkully (Aug 28, 2008)

CaptainSkully said:


> *Next Step...*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I posted this earlier in the blog series, but I thought it was worth revisiting later:
--
I should probably post this design by Rex Alexander as my other choice:



It's a free plan on FWW. I'm going to print it out and compare the design to Kevin Rodel's. Luckily, I still have time to decide. To date, I've only made the template for the Rodel chair. 
--
I think that if I had made Schroeder's table by Rex Alexander, this is definitely the chair I would make, appropriately enough. Since I'm making the Rodel table, his chair is a bit less formal. I'm tempted to make three of each, but that would be silly…


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## CaptainSkully (Aug 28, 2008)

*Rodel Chair Layout*

So I took a few minutes to draw this up in AutoCAD (sorry I'm not up to speed in SketchUp yet). The only dimension I had to assume were the front-to-back rails that intersect the middle of the chair back. I went with 3" because that's what looked to scale, and gave room for a proper radius. I could've sprung for the $20 full-sized plans, but what's the fun in that? The reason I drew this out is because the back is defined by a 7 degree angle. I thought it would be more accurate to locate the top of the back using Cartesian coordinates vs. a shallow angle. A little bit off on the angle, and you're way off at the top.










I'll need to get some masonite. I think MDF might be a little mushy to make router templates out of for so many copies, plus the added depth complicates things. A nice thin hardboard template will allow me to use all of my pattern following bit/plunge with no worries. It's brilliant to screw the blank to the template at the mortise hole locations (not shown). It looks like I'll have to do a series of routing along straight edges to make the template perfect, which of course will make all the chairs perfect, right?


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## CaptainSkully (Aug 28, 2008)

CaptainSkully said:


> *Rodel Chair Layout*
> 
> So I took a few minutes to draw this up in AutoCAD (sorry I'm not up to speed in SketchUp yet). The only dimension I had to assume were the front-to-back rails that intersect the middle of the chair back. I went with 3" because that's what looked to scale, and gave room for a proper radius. I could've sprung for the $20 full-sized plans, but what's the fun in that? The reason I drew this out is because the back is defined by a 7 degree angle. I thought it would be more accurate to locate the top of the back using Cartesian coordinates vs. a shallow angle. A little bit off on the angle, and you're way off at the top.
> 
> ...


For some reason, the drawing isn't posting properly. I'll try again later.


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## CaptainSkully (Aug 28, 2008)

CaptainSkully said:


> *Rodel Chair Layout*
> 
> So I took a few minutes to draw this up in AutoCAD (sorry I'm not up to speed in SketchUp yet). The only dimension I had to assume were the front-to-back rails that intersect the middle of the chair back. I went with 3" because that's what looked to scale, and gave room for a proper radius. I could've sprung for the $20 full-sized plans, but what's the fun in that? The reason I drew this out is because the back is defined by a 7 degree angle. I thought it would be more accurate to locate the top of the back using Cartesian coordinates vs. a shallow angle. A little bit off on the angle, and you're way off at the top.
> 
> ...


There was a typo in my file name. Sorry for the double post.

The nice thing about investing the time to make a perfect template is that all of your parts come out perfect, with minimal sanding required, they come out exactly the same, and you get to keep the templates so if you want to make another set of chairs in five years, half the work is already done.

I remembered that I forgot that the template isn't exactly like the finished product, which is new to me. The template has to run long on either end for the spacer blocks that hold the template together. You wouldn't want to route the end grain anyway.


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## CaptainSkully (Aug 28, 2008)

CaptainSkully said:


> *Rodel Chair Layout*
> 
> So I took a few minutes to draw this up in AutoCAD (sorry I'm not up to speed in SketchUp yet). The only dimension I had to assume were the front-to-back rails that intersect the middle of the chair back. I went with 3" because that's what looked to scale, and gave room for a proper radius. I could've sprung for the $20 full-sized plans, but what's the fun in that? The reason I drew this out is because the back is defined by a 7 degree angle. I thought it would be more accurate to locate the top of the back using Cartesian coordinates vs. a shallow angle. A little bit off on the angle, and you're way off at the top.
> 
> ...


That's pretty darn cool Dave. I'm making a single prototype (out of QSWO), getting all the mistakes out of the way (hopefully), then cranking out the other five (unless I need to replace the prototype). I figure that if I blog about the prototype enough, then I'll be able to help myself on the batched chairs.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

CaptainSkully said:


> *Rodel Chair Layout*
> 
> So I took a few minutes to draw this up in AutoCAD (sorry I'm not up to speed in SketchUp yet). The only dimension I had to assume were the front-to-back rails that intersect the middle of the chair back. I went with 3" because that's what looked to scale, and gave room for a proper radius. I could've sprung for the $20 full-sized plans, but what's the fun in that? The reason I drew this out is because the back is defined by a 7 degree angle. I thought it would be more accurate to locate the top of the back using Cartesian coordinates vs. a shallow angle. A little bit off on the angle, and you're way off at the top.
> 
> ...


It Should be a good project.


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## CaptainSkully (Aug 28, 2008)

*It's All About the Template...*










So today, I cleaned up the shop a bit and started on the template to make the back legs. Based on my AutoCAD drawing, I laid it out on some 1/4" masonite (hardboard). I even remembered to make it longer to affix the ends together. I cut it out and faired it as best I could. It's almost perfect (you can spot 1/1000" off) when sighting down it. It looks pretty darn good from the side.

I then double-sided taped it to a roughed out blank and using my pattern-following bit, made an exact duplicate, which needed almost no sanding. I then started laying out the mortises, because that's how you mount the blank to the template (the mortises will eventually eliminate the screw holes). You just have to make sure to screw half the legs on one side, and half on the other, so that the mortises will be on the inside (note to self). BTW, I made sure to put the rough side of the masonite inside to have the slick outside slide better on the router table.

I'm gluing up the 1 1/2" blocks/spacers for the end of the jig, and will route them to fit tomorrow, after the glue dries. After that, it's gluing up large 1 1/2" blanks for the legs out of 3/4" stock. I'll obviously try to optimize because the bent back leg could waste a lot of wood. I'll try to get the front legs out of the waste. While that's curing, I'll start on thinner parts like spindles, gussets, etc.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

CaptainSkully said:


> *It's All About the Template...*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks like a good strat


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## Jero (Mar 23, 2010)

CaptainSkully said:


> *It's All About the Template...*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


After looking through various plans I too came across the Rodel chairs and immediately decided to make it my first project for this fall. I too have drawn up the rear uprights in autocad, and am going to make a template off of it. Overall, the chairs look like a nice challenge. First chairs I have ever built as well.


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## Jero (Mar 23, 2010)

CaptainSkully said:


> *It's All About the Template...*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My adventure in the rear legs went from really good, to really bad in 2 days.

I'm making a set of 6 chairs, so I needed 12 rear legs. I got all 12 cut out utilizing all the thicker white oak I had in my shop. They do generate quite a bit of waste, but can get the front legs out of the waste. that part went great. Then it got bad.

I made the templates out of the 1/4" hardboard as recommended, however forgot to leave one end longer to attach them together, and ended up finageling something together to hold it. That was a mistake. It lead to a weaker template. That, combined with only "attaching" the template to the legs in 2 places (which is recommended by Rodel), which led to the template slightly shifting/bending during routing, which led to me gouging out several of the legs…beyond repair. I was (and am) disgusted.

I notice on Kevin's FWW article that HIS template is built with quite a bit heavier material than 1/4" hardboard. I will be re-building a new template with 1/2" or 3/4" material, AND getting new material for the rear legs.

My recommendation. Either secure the 1/4" hardboard to the legs in more places (by clamping, or some other method), or make the template out of thicker material. I also did not have the same router bit that he recommended. I had the bearings on the bottom end of the bit…dont know if that hindered anything…

Have you been able to machine the legs?


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## CaptainSkully (Aug 28, 2008)

*The Paradox of Quartersawn on Four Sides...*

I ran over to the lumber yard and picked up some 4/4 for the base and a stick of 8/4 to make a single chair out of. I was going to finish the base before I started on the legs, but this 8/4 stick was magnificent (and I didn't want anyone else to nab it). I recently posted a question in the Design Forum about possibly laminating 3/4" stock to make the legs 1-1/2", but I couldn't take any shortcuts (regardless of how cost-effective they might be) on the dining room set. This way, I can make the four legs, and work on the chair while they're drying. Nice rationalization, huh?

I started by optimizing the sixteen 4" faces I'd need for four legs. This took into account board width, waste, good sides, etc. I then planed them all to the same thickness, which is important because I'm using a lock-miter bit to make the 45's. I ripped them all down to a nominal width, then trimmed off the excess with the tablesaw blade tilted to 45 degrees. I left a 1/8" shoulder on purpose for two reasons: 1) You need that shoulder to run against the fence when you cut the 45 on the flip side. 2) The router bit needs to bite in somewhat to create the tongue for where it meets it's mating groove. At least that's what I hope happens. I used some scrap to create test pieces that get machined first on each process.

The deal with the lock-miter bit is that one piece gets cut horizontally, and the other vertical, so they mate. I need to mark my leg faces so that each 45 degree intersection has the right horizontal or vertical profile on it so that all four sides create a hollow column with the seam in the corner. The seam will hopefully disappear when I ease the edges and stain the legs. I also need to optimize "show" sides, and which ends of the faces will on top (and partially hidden under the table top), and which ones will be bottom (and more visible). When you're talking sixteen faces 32" long (I'll trim them down to their final 29" length after they're glued), you can't be too picky otherwise it costs a fortune in board feet.

The beefy 4" legs are an important part of the design, and I hope will ground the rather slab-like top that's currently being used every night. I'm not going to do that inset detail that Kevin Rodel and WhatTheChuck did. I'm wanting a bit more simple, less modern look, and I think it will be tucked in under the table top anyway (although it's a really nice touch).


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

CaptainSkully said:


> *The Paradox of Quartersawn on Four Sides...*
> 
> I ran over to the lumber yard and picked up some 4/4 for the base and a stick of 8/4 to make a single chair out of. I was going to finish the base before I started on the legs, but this 8/4 stick was magnificent (and I didn't want anyone else to nab it). I recently posted a question in the Design Forum about possibly laminating 3/4" stock to make the legs 1-1/2", but I couldn't take any shortcuts (regardless of how cost-effective they might be) on the dining room set. This way, I can make the four legs, and work on the chair while they're drying. Nice rationalization, huh?
> 
> ...


good start .lLook at all the pretty qtr sawn oak


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## Hacksaw (Feb 26, 2009)

CaptainSkully said:


> *The Paradox of Quartersawn on Four Sides...*
> 
> I ran over to the lumber yard and picked up some 4/4 for the base and a stick of 8/4 to make a single chair out of. I was going to finish the base before I started on the legs, but this 8/4 stick was magnificent (and I didn't want anyone else to nab it). I recently posted a question in the Design Forum about possibly laminating 3/4" stock to make the legs 1-1/2", but I couldn't take any shortcuts (regardless of how cost-effective they might be) on the dining room set. This way, I can make the four legs, and work on the chair while they're drying. Nice rationalization, huh?
> 
> ...


Typically the 1/4 sawn is used so that the 2 visible faces are the ones with the flecking on Stickley furniture the usually veneered a 1/4 sawn piece to the non visible faces (just in case anyone looked) I am luck enough to have at my disposal an actual Stickley library desk to use for reference. I had to stop a couple former co workers from re finishing it when the rescued it from one of the companies outbuildings before they presented it to the office manager as a gift. Had I not been the one laying underneath it when it was being lifted out of the truck I would have sworn it was a reproduction.But there it was in all it's glory a yellowed paper affixed to the underside of the drawer the Stickley label Declaring it a Craftsman piece registered in the us patent and trademark office with the Stickley name.Further research dates it to 1912-1916.


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## Beginningwoodworker (May 5, 2008)

CaptainSkully said:


> *The Paradox of Quartersawn on Four Sides...*
> 
> I ran over to the lumber yard and picked up some 4/4 for the base and a stick of 8/4 to make a single chair out of. I was going to finish the base before I started on the legs, but this 8/4 stick was magnificent (and I didn't want anyone else to nab it). I recently posted a question in the Design Forum about possibly laminating 3/4" stock to make the legs 1-1/2", but I couldn't take any shortcuts (regardless of how cost-effective they might be) on the dining room set. This way, I can make the four legs, and work on the chair while they're drying. Nice rationalization, huh?
> 
> ...


Great start!


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## CaptainSkully (Aug 28, 2008)

*He's Got Legs...*

Today, I bit the bullet and tried out my 45 degree lock-miter bit to make the four-sided quarter-sawn white oak 4" x 4" legs. I outsmarted myself by trimming the edges at 45 degrees. Unbeknownst to me, the router bit needs all the meat it can grab to make the "tongues". As a result, I have very little "lock" in my lock-miter. I have just enough to register the corner, but I've lost about half of my glue surface. Sigh… The good news is that the remaining half should be more than strong enough once it's glued together. This concerns me a bit because that's a lot of wood to take out in one pass with a large diameter bit. You have to take it out in one pass because you can't mess with the horizontal/vertical alignment once it's setup. This means the bit would have to take square stock and make it 45 degrees, plus and minus the tongue & groove parts. I had enough problem pushing it through safely with the featherboard and router bit spinning.

The large diameter bit is rather scary to use. I dialed my router speed way down. I used a featherboard to help secure the work, which allowed me to focus on downward pressure. I also found out that there's a small shoulder of the edge left, which means the outfeed side of the table can be flush with the infeed side. I was worried because my test pieces had a bit of the edge removed, which caused the work to rock as I passed it across the router table. BTW, my router table is an extension of my table saw, so I can use my Biesemeyer fence with an MDF adapter to act as a relatively accurate (and space-saving) router table. The blade guard is a bit in the way, but I'm willing to deal with the inconvenience.

BTW, I used the following method to "center" the lock-miter bit. First, I set the height by passing two pieces of identical thickness running flat horizontally. When mated, yin-yang style, they should fit flush if the router bit is the right height. I had to make a couple of adjustments which is tough, since my router doesn't have a lift. The flip side is to adjust the fence depth. This is done the same way, with test pieces run vertically up against the fence. If the pieces fit flush, then your depth is correct. There are shortcuts to this method, using two parts, one part, labeling, etc. but the end result is two parts the same thickness as your final piece should fit flush both horizontally and vertically. Sorry if this is confusing in written format, but it's relatively obvious when you're actually doing it.

I routed the vertical side on one edge of every piece and the horizontal edge on the other so that there would be no possiblilty of me mucking it up. This also has the additional benefit of guaranteeing that the columns are square. I can't believe how much air there is inside the leg! That right there caused me to break even on the lock-miter bit. This also should make the mortises easier, since I don't have the extra 2-1/2" of meat to chisel through.

While sighting down the legs after they've been dry fit, they're not intersecting at the corners as perfectly as I'd like, but they are consistent down the length of the leg. I plan on easing the edges with a small radius round-over bit, which should cause the seam to disappear in the grain. I'm going to use sticks in the middle of each 4" face and wrap that rascal with stiff bungee cord to act as a clamp to force the lock-miter together. I'll probably do one leg at a time so I can use my limited number of C-clamps to assist the process.

The dry-fit leg is standing next to the new table top in the dining room and looks incredibly beefy. In fact, it's so beefy that I could probably address my missing tongue issue if needed. I wanted a 4" x 4" leg to balance the large breadboard ends. I think I've achieved my goal. Now if I can just glue these damn things up…


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## sras (Oct 31, 2009)

CaptainSkully said:


> *He's Got Legs...*
> 
> Today, I bit the bullet and tried out my 45 degree lock-miter bit to make the four-sided quarter-sawn white oak 4" x 4" legs. I outsmarted myself by trimming the edges at 45 degrees. Unbeknownst to me, the router bit needs all the meat it can grab to make the "tongues". As a result, I have very little "lock" in my lock-miter. I have just enough to register the corner, but I've lost about half of my glue surface. Sigh… The good news is that the remaining half should be more than strong enough once it's glued together. This concerns me a bit because that's a lot of wood to take out in one pass with a large diameter bit. You have to take it out in one pass because you can't mess with the horizontal/vertical alignment once it's setup. This means the bit would have to take square stock and make it 45 degrees, plus and minus the tongue & groove parts. I had enough problem pushing it through safely with the featherboard and router bit spinning.
> 
> ...


I might be missing something, but it looks to me like you could shift the fence and make multiple passes … Doesn't really matter at this point, just a thought.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

CaptainSkully said:


> *He's Got Legs...*
> 
> Today, I bit the bullet and tried out my 45 degree lock-miter bit to make the four-sided quarter-sawn white oak 4" x 4" legs. I outsmarted myself by trimming the edges at 45 degrees. Unbeknownst to me, the router bit needs all the meat it can grab to make the "tongues". As a result, I have very little "lock" in my lock-miter. I have just enough to register the corner, but I've lost about half of my glue surface. Sigh… The good news is that the remaining half should be more than strong enough once it's glued together. This concerns me a bit because that's a lot of wood to take out in one pass with a large diameter bit. You have to take it out in one pass because you can't mess with the horizontal/vertical alignment once it's setup. This means the bit would have to take square stock and make it 45 degrees, plus and minus the tongue & groove parts. I had enough problem pushing it through safely with the featherboard and router bit spinning.
> 
> ...


Keep going


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## CaptainSkully (Aug 28, 2008)

CaptainSkully said:


> *He's Got Legs...*
> 
> Today, I bit the bullet and tried out my 45 degree lock-miter bit to make the four-sided quarter-sawn white oak 4" x 4" legs. I outsmarted myself by trimming the edges at 45 degrees. Unbeknownst to me, the router bit needs all the meat it can grab to make the "tongues". As a result, I have very little "lock" in my lock-miter. I have just enough to register the corner, but I've lost about half of my glue surface. Sigh… The good news is that the remaining half should be more than strong enough once it's glued together. This concerns me a bit because that's a lot of wood to take out in one pass with a large diameter bit. You have to take it out in one pass because you can't mess with the horizontal/vertical alignment once it's setup. This means the bit would have to take square stock and make it 45 degrees, plus and minus the tongue & groove parts. I had enough problem pushing it through safely with the featherboard and router bit spinning.
> 
> ...


I see your point, and I'm percolating on it. I just don't have a plan B. I'm out of prepared test pieces (although I could make up some more). I can probably glue it up the way it is, even though it's not optimal. If I try to fix it and flub it up, then I'm hosed. That was the whole point of spending 45 minutes doing the setup. Very frustrating. If I change the bit settings, I'll probably have to move the outfeed table. Considering my lack of success today, I'm loathe to risk it. That would also help with the lack of glue surface issue.


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## Vincent (Mar 10, 2009)

CaptainSkully said:


> *He's Got Legs...*
> 
> Today, I bit the bullet and tried out my 45 degree lock-miter bit to make the four-sided quarter-sawn white oak 4" x 4" legs. I outsmarted myself by trimming the edges at 45 degrees. Unbeknownst to me, the router bit needs all the meat it can grab to make the "tongues". As a result, I have very little "lock" in my lock-miter. I have just enough to register the corner, but I've lost about half of my glue surface. Sigh… The good news is that the remaining half should be more than strong enough once it's glued together. This concerns me a bit because that's a lot of wood to take out in one pass with a large diameter bit. You have to take it out in one pass because you can't mess with the horizontal/vertical alignment once it's setup. This means the bit would have to take square stock and make it 45 degrees, plus and minus the tongue & groove parts. I had enough problem pushing it through safely with the featherboard and router bit spinning.
> 
> ...


Don't glue it up as is. Looking at the photo, it is clear that the corners are not fully developed. Is the diamter greater than 4 inches (looks like it might be)? Don't know if you can reset the fence to make another pass. Looks like it might help. As a worst case, you could always recut the bevel to 45 degrees (getting rid of extra 1/8 inch) and spline the joint. Build a core out of FS oak and wrap the core with the face material. The legs may end up a bit under 4 inches but I don't think it will be notieced that much.


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## CaptainSkully (Aug 28, 2008)

CaptainSkully said:


> *He's Got Legs...*
> 
> Today, I bit the bullet and tried out my 45 degree lock-miter bit to make the four-sided quarter-sawn white oak 4" x 4" legs. I outsmarted myself by trimming the edges at 45 degrees. Unbeknownst to me, the router bit needs all the meat it can grab to make the "tongues". As a result, I have very little "lock" in my lock-miter. I have just enough to register the corner, but I've lost about half of my glue surface. Sigh… The good news is that the remaining half should be more than strong enough once it's glued together. This concerns me a bit because that's a lot of wood to take out in one pass with a large diameter bit. You have to take it out in one pass because you can't mess with the horizontal/vertical alignment once it's setup. This means the bit would have to take square stock and make it 45 degrees, plus and minus the tongue & groove parts. I had enough problem pushing it through safely with the featherboard and router bit spinning.
> 
> ...


Thanks Vincent. I'll keep that in mind. I'm glad I left the router setup, so it'll be easy to tweak as needed. I've drawn a line on the router table for the depth for a point of reference.


----------



## stefang (Apr 9, 2009)

CaptainSkully said:


> *He's Got Legs...*
> 
> Today, I bit the bullet and tried out my 45 degree lock-miter bit to make the four-sided quarter-sawn white oak 4" x 4" legs. I outsmarted myself by trimming the edges at 45 degrees. Unbeknownst to me, the router bit needs all the meat it can grab to make the "tongues". As a result, I have very little "lock" in my lock-miter. I have just enough to register the corner, but I've lost about half of my glue surface. Sigh… The good news is that the remaining half should be more than strong enough once it's glued together. This concerns me a bit because that's a lot of wood to take out in one pass with a large diameter bit. You have to take it out in one pass because you can't mess with the horizontal/vertical alignment once it's setup. This means the bit would have to take square stock and make it 45 degrees, plus and minus the tongue & groove parts. I had enough problem pushing it through safely with the featherboard and router bit spinning.
> 
> ...


A blog on doing this joint step by step would be real useful. I too understand that you have to make the cut in one pass. I tried mine out a long time ago, but I didn't have the fine adjustment feature then and it didn't turn out very well. I knew at the time it was due to my lack of knowledge as well. I've got a better router now with table top fine adjustment, so I am thinking of giving it another go. I would be a darn useful bit for mitered corners. I thought to let you know this because you are not the only one who has had problems with this cutter. I have this bit in two sizes and I would like to use the small one on mitered boxes. Don't give up! You will get there.


----------



## stefang (Apr 9, 2009)

CaptainSkully said:


> *He's Got Legs...*
> 
> Today, I bit the bullet and tried out my 45 degree lock-miter bit to make the four-sided quarter-sawn white oak 4" x 4" legs. I outsmarted myself by trimming the edges at 45 degrees. Unbeknownst to me, the router bit needs all the meat it can grab to make the "tongues". As a result, I have very little "lock" in my lock-miter. I have just enough to register the corner, but I've lost about half of my glue surface. Sigh… The good news is that the remaining half should be more than strong enough once it's glued together. This concerns me a bit because that's a lot of wood to take out in one pass with a large diameter bit. You have to take it out in one pass because you can't mess with the horizontal/vertical alignment once it's setup. This means the bit would have to take square stock and make it 45 degrees, plus and minus the tongue & groove parts. I had enough problem pushing it through safely with the featherboard and router bit spinning.
> 
> ...


I found some websites showing how to use lock miter bits. If you just google "USING LOCK MITER BITS" a selection of websites and video will appear. The videos all have different approaches on how to best set up your bit. The basic things I learned is that the the center point of the bit has to be lined up with the center line of the stock both the horizontal cut and vertical cut. Also the fence should be in the same position for both cuts. Set-up blocks are very useful, but you need a set for each stock thickness. You should make them from your final and successful test cuts. I also learned that you can take more than one pass when cutting your stock.In one of the videos this was done by first determining the final position of the fence. Then using a fence shim to reduce the depth of cut on the first passes and then removing the shim for the last passes (that is horiz. and Vert.)


----------



## Vincent (Mar 10, 2009)

CaptainSkully said:


> *He's Got Legs...*
> 
> Today, I bit the bullet and tried out my 45 degree lock-miter bit to make the four-sided quarter-sawn white oak 4" x 4" legs. I outsmarted myself by trimming the edges at 45 degrees. Unbeknownst to me, the router bit needs all the meat it can grab to make the "tongues". As a result, I have very little "lock" in my lock-miter. I have just enough to register the corner, but I've lost about half of my glue surface. Sigh… The good news is that the remaining half should be more than strong enough once it's glued together. This concerns me a bit because that's a lot of wood to take out in one pass with a large diameter bit. You have to take it out in one pass because you can't mess with the horizontal/vertical alignment once it's setup. This means the bit would have to take square stock and make it 45 degrees, plus and minus the tongue & groove parts. I had enough problem pushing it through safely with the featherboard and router bit spinning.
> 
> ...


MLCS has both written instructions and a short video on using the lock miter bit. It may help.


----------



## stefang (Apr 9, 2009)

CaptainSkully said:


> *He's Got Legs...*
> 
> Today, I bit the bullet and tried out my 45 degree lock-miter bit to make the four-sided quarter-sawn white oak 4" x 4" legs. I outsmarted myself by trimming the edges at 45 degrees. Unbeknownst to me, the router bit needs all the meat it can grab to make the "tongues". As a result, I have very little "lock" in my lock-miter. I have just enough to register the corner, but I've lost about half of my glue surface. Sigh… The good news is that the remaining half should be more than strong enough once it's glued together. This concerns me a bit because that's a lot of wood to take out in one pass with a large diameter bit. You have to take it out in one pass because you can't mess with the horizontal/vertical alignment once it's setup. This means the bit would have to take square stock and make it 45 degrees, plus and minus the tongue & groove parts. I had enough problem pushing it through safely with the featherboard and router bit spinning.
> 
> ...


Thanks very much for this reference Vincent, it's the best one I've seen to date. I needed those too. The written instructions are real good and together with the video tells the whole story. I printed out the instructs to have with me in the shop. I like the part about clamping a stop behind the final fence setting and then adjusting the fence to take lighter cuts, moving the fence back towards the stop after each cut and then a final cut against the stop. That sounds like it would be a lot easier on the router, and MLCS says you get a cleaner cut as well.


----------



## Timbo (Aug 21, 2008)

CaptainSkully said:


> *He's Got Legs...*
> 
> Today, I bit the bullet and tried out my 45 degree lock-miter bit to make the four-sided quarter-sawn white oak 4" x 4" legs. I outsmarted myself by trimming the edges at 45 degrees. Unbeknownst to me, the router bit needs all the meat it can grab to make the "tongues". As a result, I have very little "lock" in my lock-miter. I have just enough to register the corner, but I've lost about half of my glue surface. Sigh… The good news is that the remaining half should be more than strong enough once it's glued together. This concerns me a bit because that's a lot of wood to take out in one pass with a large diameter bit. You have to take it out in one pass because you can't mess with the horizontal/vertical alignment once it's setup. This means the bit would have to take square stock and make it 45 degrees, plus and minus the tongue & groove parts. I had enough problem pushing it through safely with the featherboard and router bit spinning.
> 
> ...


Looks like a simple fix to move the fence and make another pass if you can afford loose some width on the legs.


----------



## CaptainSkully (Aug 28, 2008)

CaptainSkully said:


> *He's Got Legs...*
> 
> Today, I bit the bullet and tried out my 45 degree lock-miter bit to make the four-sided quarter-sawn white oak 4" x 4" legs. I outsmarted myself by trimming the edges at 45 degrees. Unbeknownst to me, the router bit needs all the meat it can grab to make the "tongues". As a result, I have very little "lock" in my lock-miter. I have just enough to register the corner, but I've lost about half of my glue surface. Sigh… The good news is that the remaining half should be more than strong enough once it's glued together. This concerns me a bit because that's a lot of wood to take out in one pass with a large diameter bit. You have to take it out in one pass because you can't mess with the horizontal/vertical alignment once it's setup. This means the bit would have to take square stock and make it 45 degrees, plus and minus the tongue & groove parts. I had enough problem pushing it through safely with the featherboard and router bit spinning.
> 
> ...


Thanks Vincent! Gizmodyne mentioned shimming when I posted the next installment. It makes perfect sense when you can't move the fence once it's setup, but don't want to take such a big bite. Cutting the edges at 45 degrees certainly didn't work. I wish I'd done a bit more research. I'm not terribly happy with the way my joint turned out, but I can live with it (see my next installment).

Timbo, it's not a s simple as it looks, believe me. I spent almost two hours on setting this up. It's a lot more dynamic than it looks. If you fix one thing, you throw off another. The fence must remain stationary once it's setup for the two edges to mate properly.


----------



## stefang (Apr 9, 2009)

CaptainSkully said:


> *He's Got Legs...*
> 
> Today, I bit the bullet and tried out my 45 degree lock-miter bit to make the four-sided quarter-sawn white oak 4" x 4" legs. I outsmarted myself by trimming the edges at 45 degrees. Unbeknownst to me, the router bit needs all the meat it can grab to make the "tongues". As a result, I have very little "lock" in my lock-miter. I have just enough to register the corner, but I've lost about half of my glue surface. Sigh… The good news is that the remaining half should be more than strong enough once it's glued together. This concerns me a bit because that's a lot of wood to take out in one pass with a large diameter bit. You have to take it out in one pass because you can't mess with the horizontal/vertical alignment once it's setup. This means the bit would have to take square stock and make it 45 degrees, plus and minus the tongue & groove parts. I had enough problem pushing it through safely with the featherboard and router bit spinning.
> 
> ...


Ok Cap'n. I spent some time in the shop today setting up my lock miter bit. I learned a few tricks that save time. I had to test cut of course and I used MCLS method on their video.

The key to set-up is understanding how the bit height relates to you stock thickness. The top of the top cutter has to be at the same height as the thickness of your stock. I just used my shop made height gauge to set it. First I set it to my stock thickness using the actual stock. Then I positioned it over the bit and adjusted the bit height to the same setting. The fence position was even easier. The front of the fence intersects with with the top edge of the top cutter where it goes from a 45 degree angle to horizontal. That's it. A practice cut should be almost right on and require very very little adjustment for final position.

I found that it was easier to use the long grain edge of my test piece and than cutting across the grain. You get an easier, cleaner cut and it gives you the same info. I will say that I spent a lot of time fooling around until I understood the basics. After that everything went smooth. All the same, I can appreciate your frustration with this bit. Nothing in life worth knowing is easy to learn!! Good luck.


----------



## CaptainSkully (Aug 28, 2008)

*My Final Answer...*

I took everyone's advice and went out into the shop this morning to fix the lock-miter. I ran a couple of test pieces of poplar through, both moving the fence forward and back (I kept the height the same to reduce variables). Ironically, although the two pieces of poplar fit together poorly, each one fit the previously routed oak very nice. Since I couldn't figure out how to make that work, I just glued the legs up as is. I know, I know…

Anyway, after sufficient time cooking, I scraped off the glue (I used a lot since I obviously didn't have to worry about hydraulic pressure), and chamfered the corner in true Arts & Crafts style. The joint mostly disappeared, and more importantly held together. I'll make another, slightly deeper pass when they're all done in case I need to run each leg face down the jointer because the clamps left dents (there was no way I could juggle pads along with four sides falling apart constantly).

I think if I had to do it over (and I probably will), I'd do the two horizontal edges on one board, and the two vertical edges on the others. This would greatly simplify the clamping pressure direction. Right now, I'm having to clamp in both directions (90 degrees from each other), to get the lock-miter to bite into each other. Being able to just press down would lock all four corners together at once. Once again, I outsmarted myself. The good news is that I think my lame first attempt will actually work out. The small gaps along the joint will disappear in the rather dark finish I'm using (unlike my Limbert table).

I know it looks kind of fugly from the end, but I set it on the floor and capped it with a piece of scrap and it looks like a real beefy table leg that's quartersawn on all four sides. Now I just need to figure how to cut them to length. I also thought that the hollow might be a great hidden compartment. Don't tell anyone…


----------



## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

CaptainSkully said:


> *My Final Answer...*
> 
> I took everyone's advice and went out into the shop this morning to fix the lock-miter. I ran a couple of test pieces of poplar through, both moving the fence forward and back (I kept the height the same to reduce variables). Ironically, although the two pieces of poplar fit together poorly, each one fit the previously routed oak very nice. Since I couldn't figure out how to make that work, I just glued the legs up as is. I know, I know…
> 
> ...


I'm sorry but that joinery doesn't look that strong.


----------



## gizmodyne (Mar 15, 2007)

CaptainSkully said:


> *My Final Answer...*
> 
> I took everyone's advice and went out into the shop this morning to fix the lock-miter. I ran a couple of test pieces of poplar through, both moving the fence forward and back (I kept the height the same to reduce variables). Ironically, although the two pieces of poplar fit together poorly, each one fit the previously routed oak very nice. Since I couldn't figure out how to make that work, I just glued the legs up as is. I know, I know…
> 
> ...


I think in the long term you will be happier if you chalk it up to a learning experience and try again on these legs. Right now you have just three small points of glue contact. It is hard to tell from the photo, but if the are not square you will have resulting problems when you try to join the aprons or stretchers.

For future thought:
One way to take light passes on a router set up is to add a thin aux fence or several layers of fence and then remove them after each pass till you get to the final setup.

Good luck and keep on.


----------



## CaptainSkully (Aug 28, 2008)

CaptainSkully said:


> *My Final Answer...*
> 
> I took everyone's advice and went out into the shop this morning to fix the lock-miter. I ran a couple of test pieces of poplar through, both moving the fence forward and back (I kept the height the same to reduce variables). Ironically, although the two pieces of poplar fit together poorly, each one fit the previously routed oak very nice. Since I couldn't figure out how to make that work, I just glued the legs up as is. I know, I know…
> 
> ...


I appreciate the concern, but the legs are plenty strong. The Titebond II has filled the voids and creates a continuous corner. I'm not parking a car on these legs. It's a dining table. If they sprung apart when I took them out of the clamps, I'd obviously have to reconsider. They're square and the joints are relatively tight. I will consider this a learning experience, but I can't just flush $100 of QSWO for an academic point. I will still continue to share my failures as well as my successes, because I think that's what LJ's is all about, but nobody's life is in jeopardy here.


----------



## Vincent (Mar 10, 2009)

CaptainSkully said:


> *My Final Answer...*
> 
> I took everyone's advice and went out into the shop this morning to fix the lock-miter. I ran a couple of test pieces of poplar through, both moving the fence forward and back (I kept the height the same to reduce variables). Ironically, although the two pieces of poplar fit together poorly, each one fit the previously routed oak very nice. Since I couldn't figure out how to make that work, I just glued the legs up as is. I know, I know…
> 
> ...


You could always strengthen the legs by gluing some poplar on the inside of the legs to reinforce the corners from within.


----------



## CaptainSkully (Aug 28, 2008)

CaptainSkully said:


> *My Final Answer...*
> 
> I took everyone's advice and went out into the shop this morning to fix the lock-miter. I ran a couple of test pieces of poplar through, both moving the fence forward and back (I kept the height the same to reduce variables). Ironically, although the two pieces of poplar fit together poorly, each one fit the previously routed oak very nice. Since I couldn't figure out how to make that work, I just glued the legs up as is. I know, I know…
> 
> ...


Yeah, I thought of that too. One of the seams popped because my garage is so cold that the glue didn't quite cure before I popped it out of the clamps about six hours later, so I used an old boat-building trick and sawed down the middle, reglued, and reclamped. I'm hoping that will fix the unsightly gap. Thanks…


----------



## matt1970 (Mar 28, 2007)

CaptainSkully said:


> *My Final Answer...*
> 
> I took everyone's advice and went out into the shop this morning to fix the lock-miter. I ran a couple of test pieces of poplar through, both moving the fence forward and back (I kept the height the same to reduce variables). Ironically, although the two pieces of poplar fit together poorly, each one fit the previously routed oak very nice. Since I couldn't figure out how to make that work, I just glued the legs up as is. I know, I know…
> 
> ...


how about a square piece at each end going up a few inches--and is glued to a base piece? you wouldnt see it on the top since the table top would cover it…and the one on the bottom could be a cool contrasting piece…


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## manumurf (Mar 4, 2010)

CaptainSkully said:


> *My Final Answer...*
> 
> I took everyone's advice and went out into the shop this morning to fix the lock-miter. I ran a couple of test pieces of poplar through, both moving the fence forward and back (I kept the height the same to reduce variables). Ironically, although the two pieces of poplar fit together poorly, each one fit the previously routed oak very nice. Since I couldn't figure out how to make that work, I just glued the legs up as is. I know, I know…
> 
> ...


I think you need to oversize the original pieces and set up that bit like a jointer, to remove more material and create a bigger tongue that fits the groove in the other part.


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## CaptainSkully (Aug 28, 2008)

*Table Top Post Mortem*

We've been using the new top on top of our old table until I can finish the base. Over the last few months, the top has warped a bit, and was obviously out of alignment with the breadboard ends. While watching an old New Yankee Workshop online, I realized one of the things I did to cause this. I selected the boards for their aesthetic value, trying to match the grain to make it look like one solid piece of wood 38" wide. I neglected to alternate the boards' growth rings, a basic woodworking rule that Norm has pounded into my brain over twenty years.

Considerably disappointed in myself, especially since my woodworking father-in-law was just visiting, I was shamed into installing table top alignment pins for the leaves. I built a small jig to drill the holes straight into the edges, at the same height, depth, and distance from the edge. This allowed the pins to line up nicely when I slid the table together. It also forced the top back into alignment with the ends. It's not as perfect as if I'd splined the pieced permanently together, like I accidentally started to do, but it's only 1/32" off here and there. If I ever have to refinish the top, I'll sand the whole thing flush.

I jokingly told Kim that I'm going to buy a ping pong kit for the new table. Not an overly interesting blog post, because I've had very little time in the shop recently, but I hope to make some progress soon. I'm trying to figure out how to cut apart my table legs and redo the lock miter joint without risking kickback. I may have to hand saw them apart. I'm also thinking about putting the blade at a 45 degree, with the fence right next to it and cutting the corners that way. I definitely don't want to put the fence on the other side of the 45 and push the legs past. The safety gear won't help much while cutting a 45. Thoughts?


----------



## Tom8021 (Jul 14, 2009)

CaptainSkully said:


> *Table Top Post Mortem*
> 
> We've been using the new top on top of our old table until I can finish the base. Over the last few months, the top has warped a bit, and was obviously out of alignment with the breadboard ends. While watching an old New Yankee Workshop online, I realized one of the things I did to cause this. I selected the boards for their aesthetic value, trying to match the grain to make it look like one solid piece of wood 38" wide. I neglected to alternate the boards' growth rings, a basic woodworking rule that Norm has pounded into my brain over twenty years.
> 
> ...


Sometimes it is better to start over. I am just jumping in here without reading all of your blogs, so I might not know what I am talking about. I did look at #16 and cutting those legs wouldn't be worth it. If I was doing it I would raise the blade to cut through two, then lower the blade to cut through another and then the last one.

What is going on with the top? I have done lots of glue ups with different grain configurations and they haven't warped. I have used warp boards causing warp surfaces though, lol.


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## doorslammer (Aug 17, 2008)

CaptainSkully said:


> *Table Top Post Mortem*
> 
> We've been using the new top on top of our old table until I can finish the base. Over the last few months, the top has warped a bit, and was obviously out of alignment with the breadboard ends. While watching an old New Yankee Workshop online, I realized one of the things I did to cause this. I selected the boards for their aesthetic value, trying to match the grain to make it look like one solid piece of wood 38" wide. I neglected to alternate the boards' growth rings, a basic woodworking rule that Norm has pounded into my brain over twenty years.
> 
> ...


I would argue that alternating the growth rings is a "woodworking rule". Several well known woodworkers (Chris Schwarz, Bob VanDyke, Sam Maloof) advocate that the appearance of the top is the most important requirement and alternating the sap vs. heart wood is secondary. Granted, if all the growth rings are in the same direction then the top will tend to have a more pronounced cup or bow than if they were alternated, but I would much rather have a good looking top and gamble on having a couple of boards in the same direction.


----------



## manumurf (Mar 4, 2010)

CaptainSkully said:


> *Table Top Post Mortem*
> 
> We've been using the new top on top of our old table until I can finish the base. Over the last few months, the top has warped a bit, and was obviously out of alignment with the breadboard ends. While watching an old New Yankee Workshop online, I realized one of the things I did to cause this. I selected the boards for their aesthetic value, trying to match the grain to make it look like one solid piece of wood 38" wide. I neglected to alternate the boards' growth rings, a basic woodworking rule that Norm has pounded into my brain over twenty years.
> 
> ...


If you want to cut up those legs, screw a square block on the ends on a diagonal that is a large as the diagonal of the leg top and bottom. The joints in the leg corners would then be held perpendicular to the table saw and you could just set the fence and run it through once on all 4 sides.


----------



## Jero (Mar 23, 2010)

CaptainSkully said:


> *Table Top Post Mortem*
> 
> We've been using the new top on top of our old table until I can finish the base. Over the last few months, the top has warped a bit, and was obviously out of alignment with the breadboard ends. While watching an old New Yankee Workshop online, I realized one of the things I did to cause this. I selected the boards for their aesthetic value, trying to match the grain to make it look like one solid piece of wood 38" wide. I neglected to alternate the boards' growth rings, a basic woodworking rule that Norm has pounded into my brain over twenty years.
> 
> ...


I've read the same philosphy as doorslammer has mentioned. That alternating the growth rings is not 100% necessary. I typically go for appearance first, lay them all out what looks good, and try to alternate the rings, if possible. If not, they'll go in the same direction. Good securement underneath helps keep the top flat, as well as making sure the poly, or lacquer coats are applied the same on the bottom as they are on the top.


----------



## CaptainSkully (Aug 28, 2008)

CaptainSkully said:


> *Table Top Post Mortem*
> 
> We've been using the new top on top of our old table until I can finish the base. Over the last few months, the top has warped a bit, and was obviously out of alignment with the breadboard ends. While watching an old New Yankee Workshop online, I realized one of the things I did to cause this. I selected the boards for their aesthetic value, trying to match the grain to make it look like one solid piece of wood 38" wide. I neglected to alternate the boards' growth rings, a basic woodworking rule that Norm has pounded into my brain over twenty years.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the feedback. The bottom was sealed. I guess when I attach the top to the base, that will help level things out.

Michael, thanks for the tip, that's exactly what I'll do. Wish I'd thought of it and saved myself some grief.


----------



## CaptainSkully (Aug 28, 2008)

*A Little Progress...*

I finally had a day off, so I chopped up the messed up lock-mitered legs by setting the blade right up against the fence at a 45 degree angle. I was able to push the legs through with the help of a featherboard to be as safe as possible. I chopped a bit off each side, but I think the next version will be much better, even if they're up to 1/2" smaller on each face. I started to run the freshly liberated faces through the table saw to reestablish fresh mitered edges to prepare for a spline or a lock miter, but chickened out and worked on another project.

After I got to a stopping point on the other project, I thought I'd give my new BeadLock Pro 1/2" kit a try in preparation for the chairs. It was relatively straightforward, but the test pieces were a strong 32nd off. That may be good enough for a table, but if I'm going to use this for my Rodel chairs, I want a bit more accuracy. I'll give it a couple more tries to see if it was me. Once I figure it out, I'll post a Review.

Sorry, no pics this time. I'll post some pics when I figure out what the heck to do with the legs.


----------



## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

CaptainSkully said:


> *A Little Progress...*
> 
> I finally had a day off, so I chopped up the messed up lock-mitered legs by setting the blade right up against the fence at a 45 degree angle. I was able to push the legs through with the help of a featherboard to be as safe as possible. I chopped a bit off each side, but I think the next version will be much better, even if they're up to 1/2" smaller on each face. I started to run the freshly liberated faces through the table saw to reestablish fresh mitered edges to prepare for a spline or a lock miter, but chickened out and worked on another project.
> 
> ...


Photos ?


----------



## owl (Jul 13, 2009)

CaptainSkully said:


> *A Little Progress...*
> 
> I finally had a day off, so I chopped up the messed up lock-mitered legs by setting the blade right up against the fence at a 45 degree angle. I was able to push the legs through with the help of a featherboard to be as safe as possible. I chopped a bit off each side, but I think the next version will be much better, even if they're up to 1/2" smaller on each face. I started to run the freshly liberated faces through the table saw to reestablish fresh mitered edges to prepare for a spline or a lock miter, but chickened out and worked on another project.
> 
> ...


When you ran your pieces through the router for your lock miter joint did you run one piece flat and one piece verticle. It looks like the joint doesnt fit because you have all "male" and no "female" parts or visaversa. I cant tell by the picture alone. Also a fellow luberjock fixed his quad posts by sawing through the joint at a 45 like you have done and then glued a spline (1/8th inch wood to match his 1/8th inch sawkerf) and it looked great. http://lumberjocks.com/bsherman/blog/12526 Sorry if this has all been talked about already.
Ed


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## CaptainSkully (Aug 28, 2008)

*Getting Back on That Sawhorse... (or Table Legs Redux)*

It's been months since I've been able to do any woodworking. I guess being busy in this economy is a good thing. I finally got a couple of days in the shop to address in-progress projects. The biggest was my mental block on the 4-sided quartersawn legs for the dining table. In a previous entry, I discussed how I botched the lock miter joint. It took me a while to get up the nerve to get back to work on them because if I biffed it again, they'd be too thin and I'd wasted $100 worth of wood.

A while ago, I chopped them back apart, then removing as little wood as possible, I table sawed them at 45°, jointed an edge to get a straight shot at the table saw fence, cleaned them up with a large chamfer bit on the router table, then cut spline slots into the miters on the table saw. Using some hardboard I had left over from the Rodel chair template, I fit the splines. It was tough getting them glued up, but the end result is almost perfect.

After the glue dried, I sanded the clamp marks and glue off, and ran the edges through the router table to ease the edges. The bonus is that the seams almost completely disappeared. With my new favorite dark antique finish, they should be completely invisible. I trimmed them to length, and will chamfer the bottoms.

While the legs were curing (2.5 hours each, remind me to buy more clamps), I made the spindles. I'm going for a modified Taliesin Desk by Rodel. This sort of reconciles my conflict with Schroeder's design. Once again drawn up in AutoCAD, here's where I'm heading:










I did a lot of layout to make sure the chairs fit comfortably underneath the sides and ends, because of the overhangs and the trestle design. Next is picking up some more wood for the aprons and the laminated stretchers. It felt really good to be covered in sawdust again.


----------



## Dennisgrosen (Nov 14, 2009)

CaptainSkully said:


> *Getting Back on That Sawhorse... (or Table Legs Redux)*
> 
> It's been months since I've been able to do any woodworking. I guess being busy in this economy is a good thing. I finally got a couple of days in the shop to address in-progress projects. The biggest was my mental block on the 4-sided quartersawn legs for the dining table. In a previous entry, I discussed how I botched the lock miter joint. It took me a while to get up the nerve to get back to work on them because if I biffed it again, they'd be too thin and I'd wasted $100 worth of wood.
> 
> ...


good to see you back in the shop again 
I like the way you have made the legs

Dennis


----------



## JimNEB (Dec 31, 2009)

CaptainSkully said:


> *Getting Back on That Sawhorse... (or Table Legs Redux)*
> 
> It's been months since I've been able to do any woodworking. I guess being busy in this economy is a good thing. I finally got a couple of days in the shop to address in-progress projects. The biggest was my mental block on the 4-sided quartersawn legs for the dining table. In a previous entry, I discussed how I botched the lock miter joint. It took me a while to get up the nerve to get back to work on them because if I biffed it again, they'd be too thin and I'd wasted $100 worth of wood.
> 
> ...


I like that end design. What's your "new favorite dark antique finish"?


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## dub560 (Jun 4, 2010)

CaptainSkully said:


> *Getting Back on That Sawhorse... (or Table Legs Redux)*
> 
> It's been months since I've been able to do any woodworking. I guess being busy in this economy is a good thing. I finally got a couple of days in the shop to address in-progress projects. The biggest was my mental block on the 4-sided quartersawn legs for the dining table. In a previous entry, I discussed how I botched the lock miter joint. It took me a while to get up the nerve to get back to work on them because if I biffed it again, they'd be too thin and I'd wasted $100 worth of wood.
> 
> ...


looking good though…i had my share of goofs lately


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## CaptainSkully (Aug 28, 2008)

CaptainSkully said:


> *Getting Back on That Sawhorse... (or Table Legs Redux)*
> 
> It's been months since I've been able to do any woodworking. I guess being busy in this economy is a good thing. I finally got a couple of days in the shop to address in-progress projects. The biggest was my mental block on the 4-sided quartersawn legs for the dining table. In a previous entry, I discussed how I botched the lock miter joint. It took me a while to get up the nerve to get back to work on them because if I biffed it again, they'd be too thin and I'd wasted $100 worth of wood.
> 
> ...


Thanks guys. JimNEB, if you follow the "Part 19 of Arts & Crafts Dining Room Set series" link at the top of the blog and scroll down to the Part 9: My New Stickley Finish, it showcases the finish I used on my Pagoda Frame. I also have a Design Forum thread about my Stickley finish, where I've compiled a bunch of info. Hope that helps.

I've made my fair share of goofs woodworking (including cutting a finger off). Don't let it deter you, just make sure you learn enough from the mistakes to make the cost worthwhile. The finger reattachment was six figures, so I learned a lot!

I recently read someone else had trouble with the lock miter bit. I may stick with the splined joint for anything longer than a drawer front (assuming I don't do dovetails…where is my Leigh jig anyway).


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## matt1970 (Mar 28, 2007)

CaptainSkully said:


> *Getting Back on That Sawhorse... (or Table Legs Redux)*
> 
> It's been months since I've been able to do any woodworking. I guess being busy in this economy is a good thing. I finally got a couple of days in the shop to address in-progress projects. The biggest was my mental block on the 4-sided quartersawn legs for the dining table. In a previous entry, I discussed how I botched the lock miter joint. It took me a while to get up the nerve to get back to work on them because if I biffed it again, they'd be too thin and I'd wasted $100 worth of wood.
> 
> ...


glad to see you getting some shop time…looking like you are figuring it out…

today was day one…its all down from here to next summer…lol…no prog on boat…exhausted from school already…


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## dub560 (Jun 4, 2010)

CaptainSkully said:


> *Getting Back on That Sawhorse... (or Table Legs Redux)*
> 
> It's been months since I've been able to do any woodworking. I guess being busy in this economy is a good thing. I finally got a couple of days in the shop to address in-progress projects. The biggest was my mental block on the 4-sided quartersawn legs for the dining table. In a previous entry, I discussed how I botched the lock miter joint. It took me a while to get up the nerve to get back to work on them because if I biffed it again, they'd be too thin and I'd wasted $100 worth of wood.
> 
> ...


my leigh jig is a darling i just love it..although that akeda jig looks tempting


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## CaptainSkully (Aug 28, 2008)

*Joinery Shortcuts*

I was able to squeeze another good day in the shop around work. I ran off to buy some more oak, then got home and planed enough of it down to glue up the stretchers/aprons for the table ends. While the laminations were cooking, I decided to give the BeadLock Pro a whirl.

Having made integral tenons with chiseled mortises, and loose tenons with the router, I have to say this method is considerably easier and faster. First, I was able to cut off the parts to their finished length, without having to add anything for the tenons. There is less machining on the parts, so there's less opportunity to mess up $30 worth of oak and a few hours of work. The only power tool used is a drill with a 1/2" chuck, and the only setup is centering the jig onto the layout lines. The directions make this all seem a bit more complicated than it needs to be. Once you get the gist, it's just a centerline and a starting line. Everything else works itself out.

I've been struggling with the purist in me, but I have such limited time to woodwork, and I'm way behind schedule on this project. Once it's glued up, I'll be the only one who knows that I cheated. The first dry-fit lined up just as well as if I'd done it the hard way. I'm using the 1/2" set that does not come with the kit, plus I bought the router bit so I can make my own tenon stock.

When gluing up the stretchers/aprons, I allowed for the oversized spindles that will support the long trestle stretchers. That way I got one stretcher or apron and one large spindle out of each lamination. I still need to mortise the holes for the vertical spindles, and cut the arch out of the stretchers, but the ends are about ready. After that, the only things left are the trestle stretchers and the long aprons. If I hadn't had to go in and start prepping dinner for guests, I might've made a bit more progress and made it to a full dry-fit. I'm going to pre-finish all the parts prior to glue-up so that I can get a nice smooth finish without pooling at the intersections. My Stickley finish recipe is a bit more complicated, so hopefully that'll all go well.


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## matt1970 (Mar 28, 2007)

CaptainSkully said:


> *Joinery Shortcuts*
> 
> I was able to squeeze another good day in the shop around work. I ran off to buy some more oak, then got home and planed enough of it down to glue up the stretchers/aprons for the table ends. While the laminations were cooking, I decided to give the BeadLock Pro a whirl.
> 
> ...


Cheating??? Utilizing another method…that is what I would call it! Looks good…


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## CaptainSkully (Aug 28, 2008)

*Dry Fit!*

I found another day off, so I immediately ran out into the shop before I could get distracted. I was able to finish the joinery on the base ends. As with everything else in life, the relative ease of the BeadLock Pro has disadvantages in repeatable accuracy. I don't know how or why, but I do eight mortises and they only come out within 1/16" of each other. This has caused a 1/8" difference between the mortises, pretty much ruining my reveal on the spindles. I'll figure out a way to remedy this, but it's a hassle. I still need to make the mortises for the stretchers, but other than finishing the parts, I'm almost ready for a glue up.

One thing I did figure out is that you need to glue the tenon stock into the ends of the aprons/stretchers to effect a dry fit (the spindles have old-fashioned integral tenons). This way the tenon stays put during assembly & disassembly. I'm thinking about refinishing the top, so that may affect what I do with the base.


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## dub560 (Jun 4, 2010)

CaptainSkully said:


> *Dry Fit!*
> 
> I found another day off, so I immediately ran out into the shop before I could get distracted. I was able to finish the joinery on the base ends. As with everything else in life, the relative ease of the BeadLock Pro has disadvantages in repeatable accuracy. I don't know how or why, but I do eight mortises and they only come out within 1/16" of each other. This has caused a 1/8" difference between the mortises, pretty much ruining my reveal on the spindles. I'll figure out a way to remedy this, but it's a hassle. I still need to make the mortises for the stretchers, but other than finishing the parts, I'm almost ready for a glue up.
> 
> One thing I did figure out is that you need to glue the tenon stock into the ends of the aprons/stretchers to effect a dry fit (the spindles have old-fashioned integral tenons). This way the tenon stays put during assembly & disassembly. I'm thinking about refinishing the top, so that may affect what I do with the base.


looking good cap


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## matt1970 (Mar 28, 2007)

CaptainSkully said:


> *Dry Fit!*
> 
> I found another day off, so I immediately ran out into the shop before I could get distracted. I was able to finish the joinery on the base ends. As with everything else in life, the relative ease of the BeadLock Pro has disadvantages in repeatable accuracy. I don't know how or why, but I do eight mortises and they only come out within 1/16" of each other. This has caused a 1/8" difference between the mortises, pretty much ruining my reveal on the spindles. I'll figure out a way to remedy this, but it's a hassle. I still need to make the mortises for the stretchers, but other than finishing the parts, I'm almost ready for a glue up.
> 
> One thing I did figure out is that you need to glue the tenon stock into the ends of the aprons/stretchers to effect a dry fit (the spindles have old-fashioned integral tenons). This way the tenon stays put during assembly & disassembly. I'm thinking about refinishing the top, so that may affect what I do with the base.


sorry about the troubles…but I have to say the wood in that 2nd shot looks amazing…cant wait to see the next steps…


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## Nightman54 (Feb 2, 2017)

CaptainSkully said:


> *Dry Fit!*
> 
> I found another day off, so I immediately ran out into the shop before I could get distracted. I was able to finish the joinery on the base ends. As with everything else in life, the relative ease of the BeadLock Pro has disadvantages in repeatable accuracy. I don't know how or why, but I do eight mortises and they only come out within 1/16" of each other. This has caused a 1/8" difference between the mortises, pretty much ruining my reveal on the spindles. I'll figure out a way to remedy this, but it's a hassle. I still need to make the mortises for the stretchers, but other than finishing the parts, I'm almost ready for a glue up.
> 
> One thing I did figure out is that you need to glue the tenon stock into the ends of the aprons/stretchers to effect a dry fit (the spindles have old-fashioned integral tenons). This way the tenon stays put during assembly & disassembly. I'm thinking about refinishing the top, so that may affect what I do with the base.


I made an account just to get in contact with you. I'm a high school senior with the task of creating something I have a career interest in. I want to make a mechanical clock out of wood and saw you made the same one I want to make about in 2010. Did it turn out to work? Does it still run smoothly? Would an amateur in wood working be able to pull it off? Sorry for posting this as a comment but my account is too young to message people directly.


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