# Need help choosing first plane....



## NathanaelBenDavid (Mar 10, 2013)

Greetings…I am active duty Air Force and this past year I've started getting into woodworking. By that I mean I went to Lowes, got a bunch of SYP and built a very rough dinner table for my wife and 5 children. I enjoyed it very munch and have decided to educate myself on building using only hand tools. I built a bench for the table using a crappy "chisel" from Harbor Freight and hand saw.

I am on an very tight budget, however I highly value quality tools that I will be able to pass on to my brood. I am getting ready to purchase my first hand plane (not from Lowes) and am pretty set on getting a Lie-Nielsen.

My question is that I can only afford one plane and it will be a while till I am ready for a second etc… Which hand plane would give me the most versatility? From previous reading I gather it would be between a no. 5 jack or a no. 4 smoothing?

Thanks in advance for any thoughts/advice!


----------



## NiteWalker (May 7, 2011)

I'd go for a low angle jack plane and get some blades you can grind to other angles. There was an article on fine woodworking where the author did just that.

Also, look into veritas hand planes from lee valley. The veritas LAJ uses the same blades as their bevel up smoother and a couple others.


----------



## paratrooper34 (Apr 27, 2010)

I am guessing with a wife and five kids, money is pretty tight. Been there, done that. If you are on a budget and money is tight, it is hard to justify spending three to four hundred dollars on one plane.

LNs are fine tools, as well as Veritas and some others out there. Something to consider is this: quality tools do not start with those two manufacturers.

Tools made from the early 20th century back to the mid 19th are quality tools for the most part. And unless they are collector's items, they can be had for a fraction of the cost of a new LN et al. They may require a little tuning up and TLC, but the price difference makes your sweat a non-issue.

I have LNs and I have $20 Stanleys that I resurrected and can say that the LNs do work nicely and are just about ready to go out of the box. The $20 Stanleys, while requiring some work, will give results that are the same as the LNs. The LNs are nice to be sure and they have the tool sex appeal. But at the end of the day, I can get same results from planes that cost less money.

The old Stanleys (or Records or Sargents of whatver old, quality brand) can be cleaned up, tuned up and brought back to their former glory pretty easily. When they get that treatment, they will actually look the part of a quality tool that they were (and still are).

Whatever route you go, I wish you luck.


----------



## NorthSummitWW (Feb 22, 2012)

I'll agree with paratrooper, you can definitely get quality tools for cheap but it may come with a little work. I started out with an only Stanley No.5 and I loved it, and I still love it. Over the past year or so I've managed to get my hands on about another 6 or 7 old planes that work great and all together I probably spent less on those than I did on my one Veritas LA Jack from Lee Valley. That being said my Veritas LA Jack is a joy to use and I have no regrets spending the money on it, I use it more than any other plane I have.

If I were you (I was in your shoes about a year and a half ago, minus the five kids but still on a budget) Do a little Ebay and flea market diving and get yourself a few older planes and for a couple of bucks and see if you stick with it. Once you get to know what kind of woodworking you like and realize your needs you can expand from there.

Just my two cents, but whatever route you go have fun and good luck!


----------



## GusG (Mar 19, 2013)

I bought three used Stanley vintage planes and all turned out that I can only get 50% functionality out of each of them. You have to also consider buying new blades for them. The original blades are too thin. They planes for me turned out to be junk even after trying to tune them. I don't use them anymore.I use the Veritas LA Jack Plane. It is a bevel-up plane and if you decide to pick up another bevel-up plane you can interchange the blades. After the LA Jack, I bought the BU Jointer and the BU smoother plane.


----------



## cpd011 (Jul 15, 2009)

I agree with everything said above and at the risk of getting lambasted let me say that a great way to start is with a Harbor Freight Windsor Design. For $9.99 or $8.00 with a coupon you cannot go wrong. You'll have to sharpen it but that's the same for any plane. Stumpynubs has advocated turning it into a scrub plane. It was my first hand plane and I feel it is a no lose proposition, you'll never feel badly about abusing it. After a little tuning I love the way mine works.


----------



## reedwood (Jan 27, 2011)

when buying tools, or anything for that matter, you have to ask yourself:

"What else ya got?"

For someone just starting out, a LN would be the last tool I would consider. It's like buying a new porche - at full price when your 24 and just got married to your pregnant girlfriend. Ha!

For that money you could buy a nice Stanley # 5 that's been refurbished for around 50.00 But, you probably won't use it much after you screw up you first door edge and finally buy a decent power planer with a fence.

I'd also buy a cheap (15- 24.00), slightly rusty Stanley # 3 or 4 from Ebay and refinish them because it's fun and teaches you so much about how they work. Do you own a grinder?

You end up going online for hours researching their history, what they are worth and how to refurbish them.

I'd buy a decent Stanley # 90 or a 92 rabbit plane either new for around 80.00 (made in England) or from Ebay for about the same, hopefully with the box (made in USA) Now this is a tool you will use.

I would look at two, barely used Stanley block planes with adjustable throats like the 9 1/2 and a low angle 60 1/2 block plane on E bay. The new Stanley block planes are terrible. Forget about HD Buck Bros. too. I'm sure they work OK but they're so frickin ugly I can't even look at them. Ha!

Check out the woodriver block planes at Woodcraft too. They look like an older version of a stanley #18 - I think? Sweet tool and worth every penny.

Don't forget, these tools are worthless unless you have a decent sharpening set up and know how to tune them so they cut right. I bought a book a long time ago about sharpening which helped alot. I also have a grinder set up to sharpen chisels and plane blades.

Hey, I just listed 5 planes and a book on sharpening for the same price as that LN.

So be patient Grasshopper….. your LN day will come. First tools first.

or you could say, what the Hell and impulse buy it…...done that too.


----------



## sikrap (Mar 15, 2009)

I'm with Chris and Mike on this. I think you could do very well with vintage planes. The thing is that you either need to buy from a known entity whose work you can trust to give you a plane that's ready to work right out of the box, or you have to have the time, knowledge and materials to do the work yourself. For example, you can buy a Stanley #4 that's all tuned up for no more than $50 and a #5 for the same amount (plus shipping, of course). That will leave you about $100 you can spend on other planes, a couple of good chisels, etc. You might want to check with DonW. here. A lot of the folks here have purchased planes from him and he is highly thought of. I also sell planes, and I hope that the people who have purchased from me are happy. My $.02


----------



## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

I can't add much to the above statements. I always try to convince people to restore and tune a plane as their first one. Take the time to understand what makes it work. There is plenty of knowledgeable folks around LJ's who are ready to help.

My advice is start with a block plane. Everybody needs a block plane. Even power tool guys need a block plane.

I also agree a LN or LV are great tools, but the don't coincide with "tight budget."


----------



## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

First off, my tool budget is just about zero. The ones I do buy were paid for by selling other tools. Look around at a flea market, antique store, and the yard sales. One can pick up a few planes, IF one goes looking.









This one was just an old parts plane. Cleaned up, iron sharpened up. Price was under $10.

As for having to get a brand new iron right off the bat? Haven't found any need to buy one, as the old iron work just fine. Too many seem to think that all their troubles sharpening an old iron can be "cured" simply by slapping a brand new thicker iron in the plane. Might be nice, in fact, since the new iron is already sharpened for them. Sooner or later, they will have to learn HOW to sharpen that iron. Unless they just keep buy a new iron when the old one gets a bit dull.

L-N, Veritas, L-V, et al. Might be good planes, IF ones has the budget to get them. I am not, however a "Cheerleader" of them. Why are they such a "JOY" to use? Because the company has done all the fettling work for the buyer. They don't HAVE to make a plane tuned up before use, L-N did for them.

Keep on the lookout for an OLDER block plane on Ebay, they run about $10 or so shipped. Get one, clean it up, sharpen the cutter. Plane #1 is then in the house.

Same thing with a #3 or a #4 size smooth plane. They run somewhere in the $20-30 range, to your doorstep. Clean and sharpen them up. Doesn't matter whether it is a #3 or a #4, just get one, for now.

A #5 Jack plane would be on the list as well, they run a bit more. So, let's see, now you have a block plane, a smooth plane and a Jack plane. All for less than a $100 bill. learn how to use these three planes. Then you can see what you "Need to have" after that. Maybe, who knows, you might be able to get a small L-N plane with the next years Tax Refund….


----------



## stevenmadden (Dec 10, 2009)

*NathanaelBenDavid*: I have 6 Lie-Nielsen hand planes, 5 bevel down and 1 bevel up (the Low Angle Jack). You can get the Low Angle Jack along with three or four additional blades that are sharpened at different angles and cover a lot of ground. There was an article by Christian Becksvoort in a recent edition of FineWoodworking that coverd this subject (last Summer, I think). I use all of my hand planes on a regular basis, but the one I go for most often is my No. 5-1/2 bench plane. On the other hand, if you asked me to give one of them up, I couldn't do it…

Steven


----------



## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Careful now, it is a very slippery slope to stand on









Can't just buy only one, you know…....


----------



## ssnvet (Jan 10, 2012)

I'd suggest getting a Stanley/Bailey/Record or similar clone, in either a #4 smoother or a #5 Jack for your first plane. You should be able to find one for <$50

Learn how to sharpen the iron…. and get it as sharp as possible. Then upgrade to an after market iron if you feel the need for improvement ~$20

Follow that with an adjustable toe Stanley block plane.

They started us on #4 Stanley's in 7th grade wood shop class, and I think you'll have to go quite a long ways with your wood working for the combination to prove inadequate.

Given how infrequently I reach for a hand plane in my power tool centered basement shop, I can't justify the price of top of the line hand planes. You can get a pretty darn good router or router table for what a LN cost.


----------



## 8iowa (Feb 7, 2008)

Fortunately, I'm past the tight budgets, but I certainly remember those times.

Used Stanley/Bailey planes are commonly found at reasonable prices. With a little work their performance can rival the expensive top of the line new planes. I can't think of a better place to start than with a #5. That said, a #4 plane for smoothing, and a #6 or #7 can do a great job of jointing up edges for gluing.

Also look for used Ace Hardware hand chisels (pre China). I've gotten very good use out of these chisels. Ace also has a very reasonably priced 14 inch back saw with 12 tpi that crosscuts wood and cuts tennon shoulders almost as well as saws costing ten times as much.

Check out the books and DVD's from the Lost Art Press. Chris Schwarz is the former editor of Popular Woodworking magazine and is one of the top hand tool experts.


----------



## TerryDowning (Aug 8, 2012)

I'll start with this. Don't spend a dime on woodworking tools yet. Get into your MWR wood hobby shop and see what they have, they often have classes that teach the skills required and they have the tools as well. You might as well use that benefit provided. Try out the different tools, get advice from experienced woodworkers and experiment to determine where your money is best spent on tools.

That being said, I'm going to cast a dissenting opinion regarding what size to start with.

If I had to have one and only one plane, it would be my Millers Falls #9 smooth plane. If I were starting out all over again, I would start with a smooth plane with an adjustable frog (Stanley Number 4 or 4 1/2 or equivalent. My MF #9 for example) By far this is the most versatile plane there is. Open the mouth and plane diagonally to scrub down a board, no problem. tighten the mouth a bit more go with the grain to flatten it a bit more. Hone the edge and tighten the mouth a bit more and smooth the board all in one shot. the number 4 smoother is heavy enough to stay put and perform the task, but not so heavy that it's hard to control or wear you out while trying to learn how to use it. It's a great plane to learn the body mechanics of using a hand plane. I started with a number 5 that I inherited and had no clue what I was doing, I wrecked a lot of lumber, and was scared away from hand planes and hand tools in general for quite a while. If I had started with a well tuned smooth plane, things would have been different.

I do agree with others about starting with a used plane that needs some work. This saves a lot of money, you learn how the tool works from the inside out, and you have the satisfaction of using a tool that you restored. You might as well the sharpening from the beginning.

Just my 2 cents


----------



## Dwain (Nov 1, 2007)

OK, here is the thing. We don't know what the OP has to spend. I think it is silly to say "as cheap as possible." It's hard to be really happy that way. Give us a budget, no matter how small. Even Bandit 571 had a budget, it was "about 10 dollars"!

NBD, what do you have to spend? If you have $100, I would suggest trying to find the best Stanley/Bailey 4.5, 7 and low angle block plane. You will have to work on them to get them tuned up, but when done, you have a really strong set of starter planes.

If you have $200, then save for the veritas low angle jack. No muss, no fuss. As suggested above, get a couple of different blade angles over time and you are ready to go. Very little work. Open the box, touch up the blade (possibly) and get to planing.

If you have $25, then try to find the best Stanley Bailey 5 jack plane that you can find. It's a start. You can do a lot with a 5. Get comfortable with this, then save up for a low angle block plane, a 7, then a 4.5. It's not a bad idea to upgrade to a better blade, but I wouldn't worry about that until I had a starter set.

If you haven't noticed, I really like the 4.5 smoother plane. It is really flexible as far as the old stanley's go. Here is the gist. I would think that you SHOULD START with a few planes, not just one. IF you were thinking of LN, then I would suggest getting a starter set of baileys for the same price, just three or four, and get started. They will provide you with the opportunity to learn about planes, and they will do everything you need to get started. Once you have this starter set down and are comfortable, then I would look to the newer, LN and LV planes. They are great, and I appreciate mine so much more since I worked on my set of stanley type 11's.

Anyway, I hope this helps. Oh, and thanks for your service.

Dwain


----------



## NathanaelBenDavid (Mar 10, 2013)

Thank you all so much for your responses!

Allow me to share a little more of my "philosophy"

I have enjoyed what I've done so far in "woodworking" I have not used any hardwood yet, only southern yellow pine as it's cheapest to come by for me.

I have a general philosophy (that hard to live by) that the things I buy should be few, and high quality. I would rather have one or two nice things than a bunch of cheap crap.

I have already bought a harbor freight "plane" which had a completely off center milled body. I then bought a plastic handled Stanley from Lowes that I just can't get any work out of. So this is obviously a combination of poor tools and poor skill on my part. The reason why I have stayed away from getting any vintage planes so far is that I lack the proper knowledge on what an actual well-tuned plane should feel like.

So my reasoning for looking at these two manufactures (L-N and Veritas) is that I don't want to buy something now only to come later and rebuy the same tool from them, and that I believe whatever I end up getting will be "ready to go" and I dont have to bother with whether or not its my complete idiocy or the tool being junk as to why it gives me so much trouble.

The best option would be to have somebody who knew what they were doing show teach me…but I am not local to the area (in the military) and I have not been able to locate any guilds etc that might be able to help me.

I realize that my credibility is low in that I am a novice asking for the keys to the wine cellar…

I do not despise any other schools of woodworking but mine (as in other areas of my life) is to use quality crafted tools, to use hand tools only (this is as yet a hobby and not a trade for me) and develop my skill from the ground up. I want the tools, and the final product to last beyond my own life.

Once again, thank you all so much for your input and I look forward to any other perspectives/rebuttals (I acknowledge my lack of knowledge and therefore value others advice/opinions even if I do not agree with them!)


----------



## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Just an example:









Doesn't look like much, does it? This is a Millers Falls "V" Line 900, basically a #4 sized smoothing plane. Picked it up for about $9 Spent maybe an hour of cleaning it up









And even less than that working on the edge and chip breaker. One has to make sure the chip breaker mates firmly, without gaps, to the sharpened iron. Took the now cleaned up and sharpened up plane for a test drive









on some old squirrelly grained Pine scrap. $9 for the plane itself, 90 minutes to get it tuned up. Sharpening station would be your next item to look into, so save some $$ for that. I used a beltsander, a honing guide, and a pair of oil stones. Two sheets of very fine sandpaper ( 1k grit and 2k grit) completed the station. You really don't need to spend all that much on sharpening, either.


----------



## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

its all going to be a matter of personal preference. I've bought both LN and LV planes, only because in a few rare cases they are either slightly better or more economical than Vintage. For instance a #140 vintage never had a fence, so I bought a LV. A #62 is rare and hard to find and prone to cracking around the mouth in vintage, so I bought an LN.

BUT, LV and LN bench planes are pretty much reproductions of vintage Bedrock and Bailey planes. They won't perform any better. They MAY need a little more tuning.

I'm an advocate of vintage for bench planes.

I also don't agree that low angle are superior than standard bedded planes for everyday use.


----------



## stevenmadden (Dec 10, 2009)

*NathanaelBenDavid*: When I first got into hand tool woodworking I wanted to get a good quality tool for one major reason: if it (the operation that I was attempting with the tool) wasn't working properly, I could be pretty sure that it was my fault and not the fault of the tool. I would highly recommend that you start with a good quality hand plane (I would go Lie-Nielsen all the way) and go from there. It has been my experience that a Lie-Nielsen can be taken straight from the box and used with fantastic results, with minimal set-up. Of course, things improve (greatly) once the blade is honed and set up the way you like it (camber, no camber, etc.), but they perform surprisingly well right out of the box. I have no experience with Lee Valley.

*Don W*: I am not inclined to argue (especially with someone who has your experience with vintage hand tools), but I do disagree with your statement that a Lie-Nielsen won't perform any better than a vintage hand plane. I agree that they are reproductions, but I think there have been some significant improvements to the newer planes; a thicker blade (and what it's made of), redesigned chip breaker, superior castings (opinions may vary on that last one). I have one vintage plane, a Stanley-Bailey No. 5-1/2, that I use occasionally. It is a great plane and I believe I did a fair job of bringing it back to life (although it didn't need much), but it doesn't compare to the performance of my Lie-Nielsen No. 5-1/2 bench plane. I do agree with your statement that it comes down to a matter of personal preference, it's easy to see where mine lies…

Steven


----------



## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

*Steven*, not to be argumentative, and I will reiterate I love LN planes. But just a quick peruse through the HYPOD thread you find pictures Like this one.









and this one










Its hard for me to picture the LN doing better. That's a stock iron and chip breaker on a later type Stanley. Not even what most agree is the better types.

As for the improved chip breaker. I've been researching the chip breakers for my infills. I've decided to make my own, because I believe the improvement is in the manufacturing ease, thus reducing the cost and improving the marketing. Lets face it, all they do is bend the chip to a breaking point.

Now my opinion on thicker irons. Thicker irons help because they are more forgiving. Look at a Brese plane. The iron is one of the thickest I've seen (I love his winter series by the way, I wish I could justify the cost) and its not solidly bedded. He can do that because he uses a very thick iron. A vintage Stanley is made to provide a solid bed for the iron, so as long as the bed is tuned solid, a thicker iron will provide no advantage.

One more note however, if you have a plane with a mouth that's to wide, then a thicker iron WILL help rectify that.

You may be correct on the superior casting, but that can be taken care of with some tuning.

Its ok to disagree with me on this. I understand both sides of this discussion and there is merit for both avenues of thought. I don't buy vintage planes because they are cheap, and I can afford LN, and I have some. I also understand the concept of not liking to fuss with them to get them tuned. I just happen to be one of the weird folks who seems to enjoy that as much as using them.


----------



## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Just an old $5 block plane. Not quite right out of the box, just a little bit of work. Original iron, too.

Seems there are two distinct camps around here, the Vintage Guys, vs The L-N Cheerleader Guys. Some don't mind doing a little actual work to restore a vintage plane to like new status. Then there are a few that get mad if the plane is not ready to use right out of the shipping box. I guess I am in the Vintage Camp, due to the fact that 1) lack of $$$ to buy ONE plane when the same amount will fix my van, 2) I actually enjoy restoring these old planes. 3) Nobody is paying me to build something, so my "valuable" time is spent on restores. I don't mind the time to do this. Others can't spare even the five minutes to hone an edge of a new iron. I think they would even send an iron BACK to get it sharpened, before they would take the time to learn it themselves.

Better castings? maybe try a #4H from Stanley?


----------



## Dcase (Jul 7, 2010)

Vintage or New.. Thick iron or thin iron.. Standard angle or low angle… These are all debatable..

The key factor is the sharpness of the iron. A sharp iron in a cheap plane makes a good user. A dull iron in a premium plane makes a useless tool.


----------



## stevenmadden (Dec 10, 2009)

*Don W*: Good point(s), mine is a very inexperienced view regarding vintage hand planes and their use. Some of my woodworking heroes (if there is such a thing) use vintage hand planes; I believe David Charlesworth uses a vintage Stanley #5 for most of his operations (although I think he has it tuned to perform like a sports car), Christopher Schwarz was using a vintage Stanley (#5, I think, with a very large camber on the blade, using it almost like a scrub plane) in a recently released video of him building a Shaker side table using all hand tools (produced by Lie-Nielsen, filmed at their factory, surrounded by expensive Lie-Nielsen hand tools, go figure). Anyway, I think I could have made my point more effectively by emphasizing that for a beginner, the results would most likely be better on a brand new plane made by Lie-Nielsen or Lee Valley. At least, that is how it was for me…

Steven


----------



## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

*Steven*, I'm going to argue on more point in the atmosphere of the fun of the debate.

When you said Anyway, I think I could have made my point more effectively by emphasizing that for a beginner, the results would most likely be better on a brand new plane made by Lie-Nielsen or Lee Valley.

I need to add or purchased a vintage restored and tune plane from myself, Dave, Dan, or Lukie (sorry, because I know I'm missing a few).

Lukie tuned the plane in the pictures above. I also believe that particular plane is for sale.

But I understand your point. Knowing what a well tuned plane means is a good start. I just want those who can't justify the cost of an LN to know there are other ways to get there. I was young with a wife and kids once, and there were days when scraping $200 together for a hobby just wasn't going to happen, but I could steal a few hours in my shop to put things together.


----------



## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Thicker iron?









The one on the left is a Hibbards True value #3, from the late 30s, the one one the right is from a Union #3, about 1910. Both taper towards the top.

Different pitch of the iron?









That same Hibbards plane is sitting in front of a Dunlap #3. Hibbards is a "common" pitch, the Dunlap is a York pitch. That dunlap was sold at Sears, back in the early 1940s.

The block plane above? Was a Turn of the Century (1890s) Stanley. With the Original iron.


----------



## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

next up? Might be an arguement over Bronze vs. Iron?

That was settle back in the end of the Bronze Age, when iron swords were breaking all bronze swords. Back then, one could bend either. Later on, with some advances is steel making, things got a little better. And Bronze was left to make a bunch of green statues….

Why are Bronze castings for planes heavier? They have to be, otherwise, as soon as one clamped the iron blade in place, the casting would BEND.


----------



## crank49 (Apr 7, 2010)

NathanaelBenDavid, I see you're in the USAF and in SC. I have a son in the Air Force for the last 19 years, a good place to be. At first I thought you might have problems getting things sent to an FPO address, but perhaps not a problem in SC.

Really consider a vintage plane that has already been refurbished. There are other JJs on here that buy and sell those so you could wind up with a truly fine tool, sharpened and tuned and ready to go at about 25% or less of a Lie-Nielsen.


----------



## Dcase (Jul 7, 2010)

But was it Manganese bronze that they used for sword making?


----------



## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Depended on the sword maker….


----------



## NathanaelBenDavid (Mar 10, 2013)

Again, I appreciate the discussion…However, I would like to restate my original question…

Regardless of make or method of obtaining…If I say I can only afford to buy ONE plane, be it $1, or $500…what style (no. 4, 5 etc) would be the most versatile and adaptive? Best place to start for a beginner?


----------



## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

A #5 Jack plane will do the most good


----------



## stevenmadden (Dec 10, 2009)

*NathanaelBenDavid*: Although it may have been buried in the discussion, my vote was for a *No. 5-1/2*.


----------



## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

A #5 is one of the easiest to find for sale.









I have this one for sale right now on Ebay. All tuned up and ready for work. It does have a square edged iron, though. One of my other Jack planes have a Chris Schwarz Camber to the iron









A 5-1/2 size is a little bit harder to find, and a little more cash too









for something that is only a 1/4" or so wider.


----------



## RGtools (Feb 18, 2011)

To try and directly answer the question. I would consider a jointer (no 7) and start stocking away for a smoother. This is based on a few things that I am assuming.

1. You want to build mostly by hand but are suplmenting with power or predimensioned stock while you build your kit and your skills. 
2. You like slightly bigger projects (full scall furniture) and not boxes/little cabinets.

This will cover flattening stock and jointing edges on any size work (including, say…a workbench), and will leave an amost finish ready surface in most wood. If you have the $$, buy a second blade and put a tiny bit of camber into one of your irons. Use the cambered blade for trying (squaring) up your work and most of your boards will br ready to finish, use the flat jointer blade when you try to create a panel.

How do you plan to sharpen?

I hope that is within the scope of your question…but I will add this. A vintage no 5 Stanley can be obtained for a very small price and can do an incredible amount of work in a handtool shop. Check out my Occasional Table Class this site and you will see what I mean.


----------



## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

if the question is what should my first plane be, it should be a block.

if the question is what should my first bench plane be, it should be a #4.


----------



## NathanaelBenDavid (Mar 10, 2013)

[email protected] Your assumptions are generally accurate. My next project will be a workbench (ala Chris Schwarz) using again, dimensioned SYP. From there I hope to move into hardwoods from a real live lumber yard.

I am going to a Lie-Nelsen tool show this weekend and I hope to pick up some good stones for sharpening and a guide. I have been using a cheap little tri-stone labeled "Course, medium, and fine" with no actual grit indications. The stones are too narrow to actual get a good sharpen on anything other than a pen-knife.


----------



## TerryDowning (Aug 8, 2012)

4 = smoothing plane (smooth or smoother) 8-10" in length varying widths
5 = Jack Plane (rumored name owed to the phrase "Jack of all trades") 12-15" in length
6 = Fore Plane approx 18" in length
7 = Try (basis of the phrase "Tried and True" or so I've heard) or Jointer 22" in length
8 = Jointer 24" in length

General order of application
Jack (or scrub) to get wood to approximate dimension
Fore to remove the marks and clean up from the Jack
Try to remove the marks from the fore and "true up" the board
Jointer final dimensioning and flattening especially the edges
Smooth plane to make everything pretty. If you master smoothing you may never need to sand.

either the larger smoothers (4, 4 1/2) or the Jacks (5) can be tuned to handle most of these jobs.

I'm in the Paul sellers camp to start with a good quality smooth plane that can be adjusted to do just about anything.

Here a couple of sites you might find helpful
Buying Good tools cheap
Same series specific to smoothing planes
For general getting started advice


----------



## marcuscraft (Nov 14, 2012)

In a hurry and the thread is too long to read, so I'll just answer your question since I went through a similar decision. The first plane I got was a #4. It works well, but feels a bit small for the desks/small tables I am currently working on. I recently was given a #5 plane and its about the perfect size for me. If I had to do it over again, I would have started with a #5.


----------



## Marty5965 (Jan 27, 2013)

I too am just setting up my shop and have spent a few months trolling the usual suspects, CL, Ebay etc. and I am here to tell you that the days of getting good vintage tools for a song online are gone. The dealers jack the prices so fast you end up paying $150 for a pre-war Stanley No 4 or 5 in decent shape and for another $100 you could get a LV smoother. You might do better at flea markets or garage sales where the seller doesn't necessarily realize that he could get double or triple the price online. Paul Sellers, whom I greatly admire, says you can do anything with a No 4 and I believe him, I've seen him do it (I couldn't). Just my $0.02.


----------



## crank49 (Apr 7, 2010)

You should pay close attention to what Don W. said above. He has bought, refurbished, used and sold more vintage planes than I could count.

I didn't mention it earlier, but a very good reason to buy vintage over new is that you could afford to have a block *and* a #4 or #5 and a good sharpening setup, all to get started for less than a single LN. You really need both because they do entirely different jobs. My first plane was a block and I use it on just about every thing I work on; seriously. But, a block will not flatten a board or prepare a surface like a #4 or #5. Blocks are mostly for edge and end grain work.

After I had a good block plane and a #5 I would start saving for something like a LN rabbit block. A unique little LN plane that won't break the bank, but does a nice job making rabbits and cleaning up tenons and such.

In response to some earlier comments about manganese bronze, it is an alloy of copper, tin and manganese that has about the same tensile strength of mild steel. About 60k to 90k psi. It was used to make swords and tools before iron, and later steel, was invented. It is a much better material for tools than brass which is too soft. Bronze is resistant to salt water corrosion as well; why it was used for ship's hardware. It is a good bit heavier than iron or steel and that is why it is favored for planes. It has more mass and therefore provides inertia for the planing stroke.


----------



## Kimchi4u (Dec 7, 2012)

To the OP:

I was in your boat not too long ago. I found someone from LJs that sold me a #5 Stanley and a 60 1/2 Stanley (a block plane) because it seems that hand tools don't exist where I live (no flea markets, garage sales, auctions, or antique stores). I'm currently doing my first year apprenticeship for carpentry and our shop projects all have to be done with hand tools. I've used both the shop tools (veritas jack planes and block planes) and my own tools on some of my projects and my take away are as follows:

1) as someone fairly green at working with hand tools, I didn't find much difference between holding a Veritas Jack Plane and a Stanley Jack Plane, except that the Stanley was more comfortable to grip. I assume that this is just personal taste. Same goes for the block planes.
2) The block plane is a must. Watching others use a jack plane on end grain and blowing out the sides made me glad I listened to our instructor. The block plane is good for end grain and can also be used on long grain in a pinch (which I tried but didn't like using it that way for long periods)
3) The #3 Stanley Smoother that the shop had lying around was a breeze to use. The guy I share a bench with hated it. Then again, he looked like he bench pressed tractors in his spare time and thought the #7 jointer was cool.
4) The biggest difference in the ease of use and the results I was getting had nothing to do with which plane I was holding in my hands. It had everything to do with the iron sharpness (they have a tormek 2000 grinder which I spent getting my blades up to snuff) and technique. At the end of each day, I had a pile of shavings on the floor, no matter what plane I was using.

I quickly discovered that my marking gauge, panel saws, and combination square all aided in getting great results as well. Maybe spend a little less on your plane and consider picking a good saw or marking tool to go with it instead.

Just my 2 cents


----------



## NathanaelBenDavid (Mar 10, 2013)

Thanks again for all the feedback! I went to a Lie-Nielsen tool event and was able to talk my wife into letting me make a purchase! I went with an adjustable mouth block plane, and a No. 62 LA Jack plane… waiting for them to to arrive in the mail and get to work!


----------



## Marty5965 (Jan 27, 2013)

Sweet! Let us know how you like the low angle jack. I snagged an almost new LN 4 1/2 off eBay and I love it. I also bought an older Record #7 and it's a nice jointer (#8's seem harder to come by and tend to be pricey).


----------



## sikrap (Mar 15, 2009)

Congrats!! You will love them both!! Just a FYI- you'll need to polish the backs of the irons and hone the bevels to get the best performance. Yes, they will be "usable" right out of the box, but if you spend 10 minutes polishing and honing them, they will actually be fun to use. I would still recommend vintage tools to stretch the budget, but that could be because I use/sell vintage tools ) one last thing; get yourself a piece of horsehide and some .5 micron paste and make yourself a strop. It will save you a LOT of sharpening time if you use it regularly. Plenty of threads/ videos etc. on how to make/use one. Have fun!!


----------



## JohnChung (Sep 20, 2012)

Sounds like you are willing to spend real cash there. A good versatile plane is LV LAJ. With all the various blade
options it does wonders. Don't forget getting a set of good sharpening stones. I prefer Shaption.


----------



## paratrooper34 (Apr 27, 2010)

Some great points, and yes, those LN planes are sweet. The blades will need to be polished and honed. They do not come that way from the "factory" in Maine. Sharpening is a must.


----------



## reedwood (Jan 27, 2011)

Perfect choice!

Tell the boss she did good… but you know, now you owe her big time! Ha!

Be sure to save the boxes and wrapping paper - worth at least 20.00 ea.

BTW- did you get a better deal at the show? at least free shipping?


----------



## NathanaelBenDavid (Mar 10, 2013)

@Reedwood

How and why are the boxes and wrapping paper worth anything?

They gave free shipping from the show. They had some stock but I also got a sharpening stone/guide set and elected to have it all shipped together. This avoided sales tax in addition to the free shipping. Unfortunately the LA jack is on back order so I have to wait even longer. I have an unhealthy habit of ordering things and watching the tracking number get closer and closer…the suspense is killing me!


----------



## reedwood (Jan 27, 2011)

Sounds like a good deal to me.

If you decide (Gasp!) to sell these tools on E Bay some day, you can get more for planes that include the original box, even the wrapping paper drives collectors crazy.

But, LNs tend to get 90% of original price when sold on Ebay anyway so maybe they're not worth as much as other vintage planes, But I've seen just the LN boxes for sale - starting bid -20.00.

Just put them away so they don't get damaged. Then, call me up in 30 years and thank me.

Now that you are officially a LN owner, your going to have to buy a "user" for daily work like the 9 1/2 and the 60 1/2. Gotta protect your investment!

Ebay has them all the time for 32 to 98.00 bucks, depending on condition and if it includes the vintage box.

Have fun!


----------



## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

I think your pics are good ones… the plane I use most though is a block plane from Lie Nielson

I got the #103 low angle block plane. Went for the bronze body just because I liked the look versus iron, only had it a year but it gets tons of use in doing trim work, as well as picture frames, breaking edges and getting splines flush on boxes.


----------



## PurpLev (May 30, 2008)

as a first plane I would go with a block plane and here are the reasons:

- it is the most useful of all hand planes and the least job-specific (touch ups, spot planing, end grain, chamfering…etc)
- it can do end grain work more easily where other planes will not
- it's smaller blade makes it easier to get a consistent edge on using smaller stones/sand paper/etc
- it is easily stored and carried

do not forget that 90% of how good a hand plane performs has to do with how you sharpen it - so make sure you calculate into the final price a good sharpening setup (can be as cheap/expensive as you make it - there are many good alternatives out there)


----------

