# saw pals on Ridgid R4512



## Blurrytree (Jan 13, 2014)

I have been having a hard time finding out if saw pals can be made to fit the Ridgid R4512. If you do not know what they are you can see them here.

http://in-lineindustries.com/products/contractor-saw-pals/

Basically they allow for fine tuning the trunnions on contractor saws. The ⅜" version is for ridgid saws, why it doesn't state that is does not fit R4512 is beyond me. I have no clue about in-line industries business model but I would be willing to pay a premium if they manufactured an R4512 version only since added expense and frustration would be nearly eliminated.

I have ordered the ⅜" version (closest to 10mm) and am going to report back with what works or doesn't when they arrive.

I have found three different methods for making them fit that is purely based on internet searches. These are not my sites or am I affiliated in anyway.

1. Shave off a bit on each end of the rear trunnion to allow the pals to properly wrap around the edge.

http://www.instructables.com/id/Saw-Pal-Instalation-on-a-Rigid-R4512-Table-saw/

This method may require an additional machine shop expense and/or potential problems with heat and modifying your saw. This seems a bit extreme since wouldn't it be easier to just modify the pals? However only a small amount needs to be removed. ⅛"?

2. Move the mounting hole on the pal. I read on another forum that someone simply drilled a 10mm hole on his existing pals to allow the part to clear the edge of the trunnion. I am going to consider this approach first if I feel I will have enough clearance around the new hole next to the previous one.

3. Make your own from scratch. The design is pretty simple which makes me wonder why a R4512 version is not available. I suspect R4512 owners would flock to the site to purchase for an easy fix because we all know it is not a pleasant task. I will most likely make a pair out of wood to get the sizing right and then either make them myself or find a machine shop to do a prettier version.

I suspect all of these options will work to a degree and I will let you know how I make out.


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## knotscott (Feb 27, 2009)

Call In-Line Industries and ask. It's a small mom and pop type operation owned by Jerry Coles. They're often away at shows, but give them a try.


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## jeffski1 (Nov 29, 2008)

Last time I read they do not make PALS for the R4512…


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## Blurrytree (Jan 13, 2014)

Got this info from the company:

If you are modifying these for a Ridgid, I would recommend the 5/15" PALS, as the brackets are a little longer. You would need to drill out the hole for the studs, but I think that would be your best bet. The "Maintaining Your Table Saw" manual in the EDUCATION section of our site and the PALS Installation video may be helpful.

Let me know how it works out.

I ordered a set and am trying it out once they arrive


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## Blurrytree (Jan 13, 2014)

I got them today and it looks as if they are going to work quite well.

All that I can see that is required is enlarge the hole and buy longer bolts.

note: I am using the stud from saw pals and it is simply for illustrative purposes and does not fit.

Here are some pics of the 5/16" version. Perhaps this will help someone.


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## knotscott (Feb 27, 2009)

I know the PALS help hold alignment, and make the fine tuning easier, but do you think they'll help the chronic alignment problem that many of the R4512s and 21833s have?


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## Blurrytree (Jan 13, 2014)

Hey there, I doubt it or am very hopeful. I am going to use the saw at 90 degrees only and think that these will allow me to get it the best I can. I suspect due to the simplicity I will get better results personally. I found the blade shifting to be around 0.005" at 90 degrees and have seen far worse at tilting. I cant see how the pals will help fix the issue but who knows? Maybe getting it well aligned could put the rest in order to at least acceptable standards.


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## Blurrytree (Jan 13, 2014)

Not sure if this is much interest to people.

Anyway, I drilled the hole larger in the pals. Aside from some hardware changes there was no filing of trunnions etc. required.

I replaced the rear trunnions original M10 socket head screws with 60mm long, M10 set screws (65mm would be better for the extra room for the nylon lock nut to sit on prior to tightening, but they did not have them and 60mm does work)

Originally, I was going to stick with the socket head screws that came with the saw, aside from being a tad short they probably would work with a little more frustration. However, I read in the instructions that the threaded rod aids in providing less drifting when tightening. So I decided to go that route. Since I was buying new hardware I opted for set screws as opposed to the threaded rods (like what comes with the pals) since it can be tightened with a hex wrench. I also added some loc-tite.

I didn't get a chance to do the final adjustment but the instal looks good. The additional hardware cost me under $6.


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## AaronKoch (Dec 17, 2013)

I know the PALS help hold alignment, and make the fine tuning easier, but do you think they'll help the chronic alignment problem that many of the R4512s and 21833s have?

This is my question. I would buy the R4512 if I knew I could get it aligned and keep it that way, but I'm scared to death that's not possible, even with the PALS.


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## knotscott (Feb 27, 2009)

*"...I would buy the R4512 if I knew I could get it aligned and keep it that way, but I'm scared to death that's not possible, even with the PALS."*

If you get one that's not defective, it should be fine. They're not all plagued with that issue.


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## AaronKoch (Dec 17, 2013)

See, I wonder if they are but not everyone who buys a saw at Home Depot cares enough to notice.


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## chazmclean (Jan 7, 2012)

Yes, i my R4512 would stay dead on.


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## Blurrytree (Jan 13, 2014)

Sorry about the delay, I missed the notification.

Aaron, The pals helped but they did not correct the issue. I actually ended up not even using them (will explain more below).

Knotscott, You clearly know your stuff and I mean no disrespect. Completely out of curiosity how you know there are units out there without the problem? I just find it odd that some would work and some would not (not that that is entirely uncommon though). I also find it strange that no one truly knows the cause of the problem and they are all built the "same".

Chaz, Following my same sentiment as above. How did you measure your saw? Did you use a dial indicator? check at different heights tilts etc? Also, how much is dead on? I only wonder because I have had two of these saws manufactured about 2 years apart (which doesn't seem to matter) and have had no luck with either.

Anyway, I ended up not using the pals because I found the aluminum a little too weak on the fine adjustment screws. I got the blade within 0.007" by tapping and nudging and then fine tuned with the pals. After tightening the fine tuning bolts to improve the alignment they ended up stripping. I removed the pals and kept the posts in and it was much easier to align. I was able to do most of it with gentle taps with a closed fist.

I got the blade aligned to the miter with +- 0.001 runout. I was thrilled. I then changed the blade height and it was 0.005"..still pretty happy. Then I tried some other heights etc and it was as high as 0.010".

I told myself that 0.006" runout was my limit and if it was not met I would just sell the saw. Perhaps I am splitting hairs or expecting too much but I just started to worry at that point. I sold the saw for a little less than what I paid, explained all of this to the buyer and I consider it a lesson learned.

One thing that I did prior to the final "aligning" that really helped is this:

I noticed there was some play in between the trunnions. I could shift the entire assembly a significant amount 1/4" or so. I recall this wiggle room in the brand new one I had as well but never really paid attention.

I loosened all four trunnion bolts and took a long clamp and pulled them into each other as much as possible and then tightened. This removed any noticeable play. This helped a lot in my case!


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## Blurrytree (Jan 13, 2014)

Sorry about the delay, I missed the notification.

Aaron, The pals helped but they did not correct the issue. I actually ended up not even using them (will explain more below).

Knotscott, You clearly know your stuff and I mean no disrespect. Completely out of curiosity how you know there are units out there without the problem? I just find it mind odd that some would work and some would. I also find it strange that no one truly knows the cause of the problem and they are all built the "same".

Chaz, Following my same sentiment as above. How did you measure your saw? Did you use a dial indicator? check at different heights tilts etc? Also, how much is dead on? I only wonder because I have had two of these saws manufactured about 2 years apart (which doesn't seem to matter) and have had no luck with either.

Anyway, I ended up not using the pals because I found the aluminum a little too weak on the fine adjustment screws. I got the blade within 0.007" by tapping and nudging and then fine tuned with the pals. After tightening the fine tuning bolts to improve the alignment they ended up stripping. I removed the pals and kept the posts in and it was much easier to align. I was able to do most of it with gentle taps with a closed fist.

I got the blade aligned to the miter with +- 0.001 runout. I was thrilled. I then changed the blade height and it was 0.005"..still pretty happy. Then I tried some other heights etc and it was as high as 0.010".

I told myself that 0.006" blade to miter runout was my limit and if it was not met I would just sell the saw. Perhaps I am splitting hairs or expecting too much but I just started to worry at that point. I also still had to align the fence and felt the number would just keep accumulating past my personal standard. I sold the saw for a little less than what I paid, explained all of this to the buyer and I consider it a lesson learned.

One thing that I did prior to the final "aligning" that really helped is this:

I noticed there was some play in between the trunnions. I could shift the entire assembly a significant amount 1/4" or so. I recall this wiggle room in the brand new one I had as well but never really paid attention.

I loosened all four trunnion bolts and took a long clamp and pulled them into each other as much as possible and then tightened. This removed any noticeable play. This helped a lot in my case!


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## BeeFarmer (Feb 20, 2014)

I just bought this saw 2/15/14. It has the dreaded moving blade problem, but I Emailed Ridgid and they are sending me a new trunnion. He said it is the part that is replaced at the service center. I am suppose to get it today 2/20/14. I hope it is a thicker casting, or machined correctly to stop the flex in the main trunnion. I will be making my own saw pals. We will see… Other than that I love the saw, I added an old casts iron saw top with slotted cast wing to the right so the fence is solid to the end and it's stable even when on the wheels. If you want to see what is happening, lay on your back looking under the saw (w/light) and crank the blade all the way up. You will see the main trunnion twist. The saws without the problem must have a better casting or machining… I keep telling myself, I got a great deal but it is from China.


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## mprzybylski (Nov 21, 2011)

BeeFarmer, please keep us posted and let us know if the new trunnions fixes the problem. I have this alignment issue as well and I have PALS on my saw too. I would not buy the PALS again as they haven't seemed to help at all in my case. I think the alignment issue just basically overrode anything the PALS can do for me.


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## BeeFarmer (Feb 20, 2014)

Well just got the new trunnion…. Yes there is a difference. They changed the casting ever so slightly, lips are thicker and I think the overall thickness is more. That was just a quick look. One thing, on the back side of the saw where the main trunnion rotates in the cap there is a cast hole on both but by it on the flat side on my new one is the roman numeral II. If your saw does not have those markings, I would say you will have problems. This will be a little work to change I might even have to break out the shop press for the motor mount bolt. At least when I do get it changed I will have the saw I thought I bought. I plan on weighing both trunnions but I can tell already there is more beef.


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## BeeFarmer (Feb 20, 2014)

Oh, I will make steel pals and install them after having tried to align this saw already, they can't hurt.


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## mprzybylski (Nov 21, 2011)

Sounds promising, please keep us posted.


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## CharlesA (Jun 24, 2013)

I didn't think my pals had any aluminum components.


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## BeeFarmer (Feb 20, 2014)

Well here's a visual for Ya… Me doing a happy dance on my table saw… YaHooo. It's fixed. Flipped the saw over at 11:00 am was done by 3:15 pm. A couple things I didn't do.. weigh each one and make the Pals. For not having a repair manual I think I did it about as quick and easy as it can be done. My blade is now within 0.001.5 of being parallel with the miter slot. You will readjust everything on the saw after the swap but it is worth it. The back side of the blade when raising or lowering now only moves .001-3 but drops right back to dead on when you just release the pressure on the adjustment wheel. I have ran the saw, made cuts, tipped to 45 degrees and checked the alignment still dead on. I believe any saw with the trunnion design such as these saws have will have a slight movement when the adjustment wheel is turned because of the force required to lift the motor. When that pressure is relieved my saw is now staying aligned. You will need a press for the bolt that the motor and arbor pivot on. This is the fix for these saws, the original main trunnion was cast too thin and would flex. This is not a hard job to do and Ridgid will send the trunnion for free. I am going to add my phone # because now that my saw is fixed I will be too busy building beehives to check this thread. If you have questions or need a brief overview of how I did it, call but remember I'm on Michigan time. John @ 810--275--4982 It's all about working together.


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## AaronKoch (Dec 17, 2013)

This is quite interesting. I tried to call Ridgid to get their official story on the new trunnion, mostly if new saws manufactured after a certain date have this new piece, but I missed their hours by a minute. I'll call again tomorrow and report back.


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## GrizzlyBagWorks (Jan 16, 2014)

I'm glad I found this thread, thank you Aaron for sending me the link via my youtube video.

I'm on my second R4512. My first had .015" movement in the rear of the blade. I exchanged it for another and on the day I set it up the second it had .003-5" movement, which I said I would live with. This thread prompted me to re-check my saw again. Well, so much for teh .003" movement , now I have .015" in this one as well, so it has gotten worse within 1 month.

I checked and I do not have the "II" marking on my trunnion. I contacted Ridgid CS with a video and they told me I needed a new trunnion and that I should take it into a service center. I responded back asking if they would ship the trunnion to me directly-we'll see what they're response is. I'm still within the 90 day return window so I might end up returning this if I can't get a new Trunnion shipped to me.


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## AaronKoch (Dec 17, 2013)

The RIDGID CS rep I talked to didn't really confirm there is a new trunnion design. He said if there is a new trunnion that is sent out for repairs then it should be on new saws from the factory but did not say that there is officially a new trunnion. He recommended trying to get a saw manufactured after June/July 2013; I don't know if that's a hint at when a change would have been made or if that was just his anecdotal recommendation.


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## GrizzlyBagWorks (Jan 16, 2014)

I just got off the phone with Ridgid CS and they will not ship me the trunnion. They said if they ship it to me and I do the repair myself that it will void my warranty.

The CS person wasn't aware of a trunnion update either.

I'm not sure what I'm going to do with the saw. I have basically a week and a half to return the saw within the 90 day window. My local HD will do the repair but will require atleast 2 weeks for it to be done, in which case I'm out of my 90 day return window. If the new trunnion doesn't actually fix the problem then I'm stuck with a defective saw.


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## WorksInTheory (Jan 5, 2014)

Oh man I wonder if they will have this fix for the Craftsman 21833 as well…


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## Craftsman70 (Jul 31, 2012)

Last year when I was trying to deal with Rigid customer service on this issue, none of them would acknowledge any sort of trunnion or alignment issues. If they are now, then its a sign in the right direction.


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## BeeFarmer (Feb 20, 2014)

I emailed Ridgid and received a reply from a Tim Beasly from One World Technoligies (bad spelling) he was happy to send me a trunnion. I have an email in to him right now making sure the LSA warranty is still valid. Even if it voided the warranty I am happy the saw is fixed and I now know it inside and out. If look up Ridgid parts it says the trunnion is $136.00.


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## GrizzlyBagWorks (Jan 16, 2014)

Interesting. I sent an email to Ridgid along with a link to a youtube video showing the problem. I got a response back from Tim Beasly as well. His response below:

"The trunnion would need to be replaced.

To obtain warranty service or repairs if you are located within the Continental U.S., you may return the complete product to The Home Depot store nearest you. The Special Services Desk Representative can help you with repair process and procedures of your product….. (continues on)"

I called and spoke to 2 different customer service people about have the trunnion shipped to me. Neither would do it, both said to bring it into a repair center.

I responded back to Tim and asked him if he would ship the trunnion to me. I'm still waiting on a response.


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## GrizzlyBagWorks (Jan 16, 2014)

Well, I spoke to Tim and he confirmed-if anything is damaged or incorrectly installed my warranty will be void. I'm hoping I won't have an issue though. So….my new trunnion is on it's way and I think I'm going to keep the saw and hope for the best. I was lucky enough to be able to use a HF 25% coupon so I was out the door on this saw for $440, at that price I'll accept it's shortcomings, especially considering the fact that the next best alternative is a Grizzly Hybrid which would be more than double the price.

I'll post a comparison video of the two trunnions when it arrives and do a video showing the installation.

AaronKoch, thanks again for bringing this thread to my attention and thank you BeeFarmer for sharing your experience.


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## WorksInTheory (Jan 5, 2014)

That's great news GrizzlyBagWorks. Just to be clear - did they send it to you for free or did you have to buy the part?


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## BeeFarmer (Feb 20, 2014)

Here is a summary of what I did, You use this info at your own risk, I assume no liability if you do this swap.

Flip the saw over and remove the 4 bolts holding the base, remove the base.

Have the arbor all the way down (blade removed, riving knife should have been removed before flip).

Adjust angle to access big nut on motor pivot, first remove belt tension bolt, Remove big nut now raise the arbor some and the belt will loosen, slip belt off arbor pulley, the motor will now slide off the pivot bolt but you may have to turn the height wheel as it comes off.

Adjust back to 90 remove angle wheel and 2 bolts holding the plate, unscrew shaft.

Remove height wheel and pointer.

Remove rear trunnion cap.

Remove main trunnion, tipping and turning to get height shaft thru slot.

Remove parts from trunnion, once bare press big bolt out. The arbor does not come off till the bolt is out. I did it with the nut on but down past flush so if I messed up threads I could clean them up with the nut. Probably didn't need it. If you put nut on take it off after bolt starts to move.

Arbor pivot hole must be lined up when you put the bolt in new trunnion. Press bolt in. The metal plate that guides the arbor must be on before the arbor is installed. That plate guides the riving knife leave the bolts loose. The arbor will not move up and down that slot till reassembled.

Do not forget the part on the old trunnion that the angle shaft threaded in, easy on the retainer.

Put all parts on the new trunnion, reinstall trunnion and trunnion cap, snug bolts.

Install angle shaft and tilt to put motor on.

Have the height wheel on, place motor on bolt, get belt on as motor is installed, turning wheel to mesh gears, install big nut and tension bolt, if you get big nut too tight it will be hard to raise / lower blade. Crank motor down to tighten belt, might have to pry as in manual, double check belt alignment on both pulleys. Tighten tension bolt.

Reinstall base, flip saw upright, install blade and riving knife.

Everything needs to be adjusted;

Riving knife - adjust the slotted plate to keep knife away from blade when raising / lowering

Recessed screws on table top back out till blade is aligned.

Trunnion - I won't detail, we all know this but remember the angle shaft holds the trunnion from moving side to side, if you need to move the front cap, I had to 90 the blade, measure, turn the angle wheel in the direction I needed slack, tap cap, re-90 the blade then measure. I did have all 4 bolts loose.

Table top screws - facing the saw, right is 45 and left is 90

Adjust angle pointer.

I did turn mine on with the blade removed, just to be safe, but all was fine.

Just got a reply from Mr Beasley… Me swapping out the trunnion will NOT affect my LSA Warranty.

-My worker Bee's are all female… Does that make me pimp?


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## BeeFarmer (Feb 20, 2014)

They send it free.


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## WorksInTheory (Jan 5, 2014)

BeeFarmer - you are the most bad ass bee farmer I know… but then again I don't really know any bee farmers!

Nice work on getting that saw to where it should have always been. Much more talented with machinery than I am!


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## AaronKoch (Dec 17, 2013)

@GrizzlyBagWorks Glad I could help you find this. Definitely a learning experience for me as well.

I was all ready go to Home Depot and roll the dice on the R4512 on Monday, hoping to find a saw in the store with the magical "II" on the trunnion, but knowing that I may have to swap it out myself. A quick scan of Craigslist right before I left work to head to HD found me a Craftsman zip code saw with the Biese fence in great condition for the right price. It was a little longer drive, a little more expensive, and a lot heavier to lift, but I am relieved that I won't have to mess with these potential issues.


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## BeeFarmer (Feb 20, 2014)

@ WorksInTheory, I raise honeybees and get honey as a bonus, we have 40 hives.


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## Eric_Habs (Jan 27, 2014)

@GrizzlyBagWorks do you have Tim's contact info? I would like to send him an email regarding my tablesaw. Thanks.

Eric


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## nes_matt (Jul 8, 2014)

> I just bought this saw 2/15/14. It has the dreaded moving blade problem, but I Emailed Ridgid and they are sending me a new trunnion. He said it is the part that is replaced at the service center. I am suppose to get it today 2/20/14. I hope it is a thicker casting, or machined correctly to stop the flex in the main trunnion. I will be making my own saw pals. We will see… Other than that I love the saw, I added an old casts iron saw top with slotted cast wing to the right so the fence is solid to the end and it s stable even when on the wheels. If you want to see what is happening, lay on your back looking under the saw (w/light) and crank the blade all the way up. You will see the main trunnion twist. The saws without the problem must have a better casting or machining… I keep telling myself, I got a great deal but it is from China.
> 
> - BeeFarmer


Any update?


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