# CAN you make a living woodworking?



## pashley (Mar 22, 2008)

I'm wondering if you can make a living from woodworking, and let me qualify that - make some decent cash, maybe $30k or more, working a regular workweek? You see guys selling chairs for $3600, or some other crazy price, and you wonder…do these guys really sell these things? Will people pay that much for a dining room chair - and in enough quantity to make it worth your while?

I'm not talking about setting up a full-blow production factory - I'm talking about myself, and that's about it.

I suppose it depends on what you make; some things are more popular than others. It also depends on volume - either selling 250 $40 pens or 40 $250 (whatevers).

I've had the inkling to sell craftsman style mantel clocks, with custom faces….the reasoning being they are easy to ship, store, and get high quality wood for - not to mention fairly easy to mass produce.

I'm currently a stay-at-home dad, and have been for 6 years, due to small kids, but this fall, my smallest will be going full time to 1st grade - I'd like to bring in some decent cash. Yes, I could get a regular job, but then there's the problem of getting home in time for the bus, days when the kids are sick, days off of school, etc. Having a home-based biz would probably be a good fit.

Just some ideas to throw out there; I'd be interested in hearing what you all think…. 

-Patrick


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## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)

woodworking is like any of the arts. people pay for good work, but there are variables.

I'm sure there are hundreds if not thousands of landscape paintings done by modern living artists. Some sell for a lot. some for not-so-much. really depends on the quality of work, where you live, who you know, luck and business skills. .... just my 2 cents worth.


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## Tangle (Jul 21, 2007)

There are quite a collection of us here trying to figure this out.


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## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

I know of one man shops that just make drawers for bigger cabinet shops. Some sort of outsourced thing might work… might get real boring real fast too.


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

nothing ventured is nothing gained

I recently did a "Home Show".

Built a timber frame booth…...........1,000 in materials and didnt include labour
Built a dining table….........................500 in material, no labour
Built a china cabinet…......................about 750 in material
Built an armoir…...........................about 1,000 in material
Built a coffee table…....................about 250 in material

the hardware was another 1,000, and lacquer and paint another 750

the booth rental was 1,500

business cards….......250

gas/pizza/beer…..........100

sold a table


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

i forgot to mention the cost of the shop at over 100K and the tools to fill it at over 100K

Some one said something like this. If you do this for the money forget it, it's all about passion and the love of the craft.


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## christopheralan (Mar 19, 2008)

Lets say that I only built picnic tables. Materials cost is around $150. Nothing special, just PT 2×6s. I would charge about $300. Lets also assume that I sold just one per day for a year. That would total $109,500, $54,750 being profit.

Is one sale a day really that hard? If I spent half the day building the table, and the other half selling it, could it be done? Or how about build about 3 per day, do-able, toss them on a trailer, and drive around and sell them on the weekends? Also do-able.

Even after paying taxes on all that, buying new blades, sanders, etc, still not too bad.


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## pashley (Mar 22, 2008)

This topic sort of reminds me of those crafts / art shows held during the summer; the kind were hundreds of vendors come together and sell anything from fine art to Sham-wows. Seems like you often see things that just seem to sell - and you also see guys sitting in booths that get no traffic. I remember one year finding these twisted wrought-iron shepard-hook shaped things you'd put in a yard to hang a bird feeder or plant basket from. Evey one had them. I attended a garden show recently, and these large hollow bird shaped things were flying out the door (i think it was either a bird feeder or a bird house). Both were in the $30 range. I think you might be able to get rid of small wood things there - like little stools for kids, or small, unique bird houses. Maybe even mantel clocks, like I'm thinking of doing.

It all depends on what people want, as usual. Some factors that would figure into a successful formula:

• *Project cost/selling price ratio:* The amount of time and materials you put into it, versus your selling price. 
Of course, you want the most money for the least work and materials.

• *Selling venue*: rural community, rich suburbs, showroom, internet. People aren't going to pay $350 for a 
coffee table at some small town festival - though a $25 stool might go.

• *Competition*: are you alone, or do you have rivals?

• *Uniqueness*: is this something new, or a usual item? Is it so unique people won't buy it? I can't tell you how many times I've seen "fine" or "high-end" woodworking, and wondered "Who in their right mind would buy this?!" I'm talking about very stylish, more-like-works-of-art-than-real-furniture things here. Selling at insane prices. I heard a saying once: "If you want to live with classes, serve the masses; if you want to live with the masses, serve the classes." You could think of Henry Ford for the former, and these high-end, artsy-fartsy woodwookers for the latter.

• *Product excitement*: people seeing other people buy tends to draw even more buyers (people referencing 
other's behaviors). I know if I see a crowd around a booth, I'm instantly wondering 
about what is being sold their and go to investigate, and am more likely to buy (others 
are buying, it must be a good product, right? I would advise if you are selling at a craft fair, for example, to have a bunch of your friends crowd around your booth, and also deploy them throughout the fair, walking around with your product - it suggests that other people are buying or interested in your product, and darn, shouldn't they check it out too? If you were driving around looking for a restaurant, and you see two similar ones, and one has lots of cars in the parking lot, and the other only a few, which one do you find more attractive, right off the bat? The one everyone seems to like, of course.

• *Product positioning* Are you on the first page of search engine results, or at a good spot at that crafts fair? If people don't know about you, they can't buy from you.

• *Price*. Tricky subject. If you price too high, people probably won't buy; on the other hand, some people will think it must be an excellent (table, birdhouse, pen) for that price. If you price too low, you're not going to make the money you could have, and people might pass you up because they think your (table, pen, birdhouse) must be shoddy (made in China) for that low price.

• *Product display/venue*. Are you selling a great product on an awful, amateurish web site or out of the back of your car? Or, do you have a professionally-done website with professionally taken photos? How you present your product to your audience plays into the perception by the consumer.

Obviously, there is a formula to find this success - just like anything.


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## Mario (Apr 23, 2007)

In the pricing do not forget about consumibles like electricity, heat, sand paper, replacement blades and other upkeep of tools. Insurance,(medical, Liability etc.) This is only the begining.


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## North40 (Oct 17, 2007)

It sounds like you've given this quite a bit of thought already. If you have been a stay-at-home for six years, you might be in a good position for starting a business because you aren't trying to replace an income.

I think eBay is a great research tool - you can find out what kinds of things people are willing to spend money on. Also, if your items are small enough to ship, eBay can get your product in front of a lot more people than the local craft show.


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## pashley (Mar 22, 2008)

I agree, eBay can be great for getting the product in front of the right people - and it's certainly cheaper than paying $200 for a booth at a craftshow!


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## Tangle (Jul 21, 2007)

We spent over $6000 to be part of a permanent home show(see my projects). Return absolutely zero. Have now had all the furniture that was in that display in the best lodge furnishings store in Boise with another store near McCall(ski area) for three months, one call offering to buy a piece priced at $1850 for $600. No return.I have a project in a brand new store in Boise(see Flynn's Project). No calls. The people I've built kitchens and projects for are either very happy with them or they're lying. But no response. We are still scratching the collective heads while building saddles. If you can figure it out let us know. One thing I know; I can't compete with Chinese prices. I'm not down on the business, I just haven't figured it out yet.


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## tenontim (Feb 24, 2008)

My 2 centss. Peter O basically said it, You're not depending on what you make now, so you don't have to go out "whole hog" to get a business going. Start out small and let you business grow it self. If you don't have a big debt overhead, you won't be pressured work 80 hours a week trying to pay your creditors.

The clocks you're thinking about would be a good item for a web site, due to the easiness of shipping. Most of the items I sell from my site are pieces that I can either ship via DHL or they have a reasonable truck shipping rate. You will have to spend a little on search engines and web design.

Make the shows. Don't discount the little county shows, especially if they are in a resort area. My first sale was at a little county arts and crafts show located near a lake in Maine where all of the out of staters vacationed. I sold two Morris chairs, two custom ottomans, and two sets of nesting tables. That show cost me a weekend and $30 in gas. Entry fee for the show was $0.

YOU have to sell your product and convince people that what you have is what they want. Most people don't know the difference between Wally World furnishings and custom made. You have to educated them.


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## pashley (Mar 22, 2008)

*Thos. Angle* - I am very sorry to hear about your troubles; I like to see people do well in business. You seem to have good stuff! You make a good point about the Chinese / overseas makers. About 2 years ago, my wife bought some wood bar chairs for our kitchen island. They are solid enough, and the style is pretty good, but guess what? The finish is rubbing off. You heard that right. These chairs were about $250 each. I have an old drop-leaf dining room table inherited from my grandmother, and I highly suspect, imported from an Asian country as well - and it's clear top coat is hazy and scratched up awful, and not from abuse. I would advise you to open an eBay store, which is pretty cheap.

*tenontim*: I agree that you must tell people why they should pay $250 for your product versus $50 for the "same" something from Wal-Mart. It looks the same, so why pay more, right? About 8 years ago, we bought a coffee table that has four drawers. It's falling apart; the drawer fronts were put on with staples! It dented easily, and the finish is biting the dust. I think we paid around $250 for that as well. Recently, I built a nice little mission-style clock for the in-laws for Christmas. Probably spent $40 in parts/materials, and 30 hours of labor. How valued of a gift do you think that will be for them - for decades? They will remember who gave it to them, and when. Likely, it will be handed-down. I could have paid $100 for something at Target, or whatever, but it would have been forgotten in a year or two, and certainly wouldn't have been as meaningful.

I agree with you about the clocks and shipping. I also do websites on the side, and do them very well, so I can get one up in no time, and it will look awesome. Just have to hone my photog skills. I am riding the fence about shows - will need to look into it.

Thanks to both of you for the feedback!


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## Tangle (Jul 21, 2007)

Quite frankly, we've done little else but think about this problem for the last 2 years. If a person wanted to build 9000 little wooden widgets at a time and had a market for them, he could have them built in China for less than a 10th what it would cost to make them yourself. The quality would be comparable. This is price point selling.Almost all the hand tools we use in the leather trades are made in Taiwan. If they were made here the price would be three to four times as much with little improvement in quality.

That said, it stands to reason that the only place one can compete is on uniqueness and quality. With that as a given, the price must represent the time and effort it takes to get that job done. At this point the product is priced out of the reach of the average person. While they "ooh and ahh" over it they can't afford it. The problem now is to get the product in front of the right people. Qualified buyers who know the difference. This could be done by a massive ad campaign which would cost more than could ever be returned or by having magazine article published that show your work to advantage. Those are very difficult to come by. They are also pretty hit and miss in application. Several members of this website have shown at the Western Design Conference with, I am told, limited success. Most have said their websites are returning little if anything. I had a web page for the saddle shop for 6 months with no return. We will be doing a web site as soon as I have time to work on it.

One thing we have learned is that people with enough money to buy my products are not at home shows and probably seldom go to stores. From what we've learned, these people use interior designers to decorate their homes of which most have several. Last year we worked Jackson, Wyoming and Sun Valley, Idaho pretty heavily. This is a typical scenario of the person we need to reach to sell our product. This person flies in in his Gulfstream and is met by the real estate person. They go immediately to the property the client is interested in. He signs the papers and is taken back to his Gulfstream and flies to his next meeting. He calls his interior person who is flown to the new property. The interior person comes up with a plan and then catches the client on the go showing him photos as they walk down the hall on the way to the clients next meeting. If your portfolio happens to be in the interior persons hands and you happen to be her golden boy of the week, you get some work. From what we learned these people do not use local designers. The local stores are selling a lot of "Made in China". I have a lot of portfolios in both these areas with no return. Maybe I just don't have a good product. There's one thing I do know about these people; they don't buy on E-Bay.

I read an article in one of those log home magazines about a place I'd seen in Jackson. It listed the interior designer in Ogden. I contacted him and sent a portfolio. I called him and we visited for a long time. he informed me that the total cost of that home was 12 million. I asked if he had more of those jobs going. He told me that the house in the article was the last one he got and that was 7 years ago. He told me he really was impressed with my work and if he got any more jobs like that one he would call. He hasn't called.

Basically, I think this is like a lot of the rest of the art game. If you are in the right place at the right time and the right person comes by, you are on the road. Between art, leather and wood I've spent a lot of the last 40 years trying to figure this out. All I know for sure is that I haven't given up. This is my experience and probably doesn't coincide with other's experience.


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## tenontim (Feb 24, 2008)

Pashley, Thos. brought up another good source of business that I forgot- interior decorators and real estate agents. I've had good luck with both.


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## pashley (Mar 22, 2008)

Definitely some good points in there, Thomas.

I think I would disagree with you on quality and China - except in the area of electronics (at least). From MY personal experiences, stuff made in China (regarding furniture) has not been so good. Typically, the finish is awful, rubbing off, in many cases. I think stuff being made in China can actually be good for your business. I think if you ask the average person on the street what they think of when they are told something is made in China, they think "bad quality" (exception: electronics). You can use that perception to your advantage in your website. Some of the better woodworking websites I've seen have this romantic thing going on…"nestled in the towering Adirondacks, our family-owned business has been creating furniture of heirloom quality since 1954.." and so on. Compare that kind of verbage against "Choose shipping method". My neighbor across the street is in sales. He works for a place that makes component boards in electronics, right here in Rochester. I asked him how he competes with the likes of Japan and China. He said his ace in the hole is advising the customer that if you have your stuff built in those countries, it WILL get ripped off, and they'll end up stealing your idea, and selling it as their own. At least if they go with him, they can get a year or two's jump on that.

I don't discount your "right place at the right time" sentiment. It never hurts. My wife works in a family-owned grocery store business (the main office), and the owning family is easily worth billions, with a "b". I might be going to work in their division that builds custom cabinets, moldings, furniture - whatever is needed in a store, next fall. If word gets out that I do some decent higher end stuff, who knows, maybe the owning family will get word of it, and have me do some projects for them. She also mingles with people making low to mid six figures - perhaps a couple of my clocks could find their way into their offices 

I don't have any illusions about becoming the next Stickley (whose main production facility is about an hour down the road from me, BTW); but I would just like to make some things with my hands that I can be proud of, and make a few bucks from, so I can stay at home with the kids.


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## pashley (Mar 22, 2008)

Tenontim - yes, those are good ideas, certainly. I never thought about them.


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## DannyBoy (Oct 26, 2007)

In regards to the quality coming from Asia, true it generally isn't as good as what is hand made by local craftsmen. The problem is, as has been pointed out by numerous agencies regarding counterfeit products, the quality is getting better. PM did an article not too many years ago comparing a true Honda scooter with a counterfeit one. The result was slightly less quality at a huge discount. The furniture world is a different monster all together, but as time goes on and production techniques get better the quality is going to get better.

Personally, I'm a horrible entrepreneur. I can barely spell it half the time. The only thing I'm relatively certain of is that if you want to keep a business going you have to control and be patient with it. Starting small is the key to this. Right now, I have a day job and I come home to my shop (and my wife) to work a little here and there. I give things away as gifts or at most ask for materials cost. I don't even consider the amount a tool cost or electricity. Simple fact is, I would be using that money anyway with another hobby (video games are my alternate). If I'm lucky and can learn reasonably well, eventually I will be able to command a descent wage doing something I love. Until then, I'm leashed into a cubicle by a short phone chord.

Danny


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## Tangle (Jul 21, 2007)

Something I forgot to say; you can always give it away. By that I mean you can always sell it for less than it is worth but you won't be in business for long. The trick is make at least a living. Don't forget, when you work for your self there are no benefits. You also pay the employers half of the Social Security.

If you know how, you can control the quality coming from China. Most importers are only interested in profit.


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## Catspaw (Dec 15, 2007)

China is going through growing pains. Just like japan did. I remember when I was a kid the joke was "made in Japan." They made crap…until they learned, then started making high quality stuff. China is the same…like a little kid testing boundaries. Once they figure out what it is that people consider to be quality they'll upscale their stuff.

The only people I know that are making a living as woodworkers (relative to your particular situation) are either employees or the ones that do it 'cause they do it, and somewhere along the line some one got word about their work and decided it was worth alot of money.

There's a guy down the road that makes one or two peices a year and sells them for $30-$40K each. He teaches classes to people at $10K per head. Why is he any better than the next guy? Yea, he does really good work….and somebody seems to think that all that b.s. about traditional methods, hand-craftsmanship, etc. means something. But, their are alot of guys that do really good work and don't make money like that. Alot of it is subjective and is the Schwabs drugstore hollywood discovery story….it really does happen but it's all luck, timing, etc.

Most great inventions are/were a product of need. Some one needed something and somebody created the solution (they didn't think it up on their own, they just figured out the solution to some one else's need.)

We aligned ourselves with rich people. you gotta kiss alot of a$$ but they pay. Honestly, I'm old enough (meaning I don't care what anybody thinks of me) to say I don't want to work with poor people…the last thing I want to hear out of a clients mouth is…"well, we're kinda on a budget.." If I hear that, I say thanks and good-bye. 'Cause I'm not working for crap wages anymore. I'd rather sit around and make wooden widgets and give them away.


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## jeffthewoodwacker (Dec 26, 2007)

I retired after many years in retail. During that time I slowly built a following of customers who bought items from me. Managed to hit 5-6 craft fairs per year during that time and started to develop a steady revenue stream. I never turned down a custom or production order no matter how small or large. As a result I found a craftsman who wanted me to turn pens for him to sell in his shop. When I finally retired from the corporate world I had built enough of a business to keep me busy and provide a good income. I run a one person woodworking shop and have had some orders large enough to require that I hire some occasional help. You can make money woodworking but you have to develop a business plan, produce a quality product and be willing to take some risks. There were some projects I didn't make a dime on but the end result was additional work that paid off.

Insist on 30% down on all custom orders, 30% when at the finishing stage and the balance at delivery. Take pictures of everything you make and document all cost of production.


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## pashley (Mar 22, 2008)

*jeffthewoodwacker* -thanks. I agree about the payment plan; I do that with the website work I do.

I think it's safe to say, if you make the best product out there, you can charge a high price - and people will pay it. Moreover, people will find you.

I have some good things in my corner; I have the time to make projects, I have good ideas for design, can set up up a great website, and am pretty good at marketing.


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## Tangle (Jul 21, 2007)

I delivered a very high priced saddle today and the lady is ecstatic about it. That makes it worth while. When you sell something you can carry in one hand for over $4000 it makes you feel better.I just wish there was more of it and more woodwork.


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## pashley (Mar 22, 2008)

Awesome Thomas! Very happy to hear of this! You must feel like a very thirsty man that just had a nice glass of water! LOL.

I hope you have many more!


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## Cameron (Mar 16, 2008)

I have only just sold my first few pieces myself, but my dad has been working as a cabinet maker out of a shop attached to his garage for something like 30 years, and while he isn't driving a Porsche or anything, he is doing just fine financially. There are definitely slow times, but there are also times when he has so many different jobs that he has to work 12+ hours a day to keep up. Having a wife that gets healthcare through her job is also definitely a plus.

Until recently, his business was entirely done through word of mouth, and it still mostly is, though he has been getting some jobs from a very upscale interior designer the last few years (rich people sure will spend a lot on kitchen cabinets). He started out doing music boxes at arts festivals, and I don't think his business really took off until he started doing built-in custom cabinets. It's just my two cents, but I think that kitchens and entertainment centers and built in bookshelves are a great way to pay the bills because these are things that are relatively fast and easy to make (basically just boxes and drawers and doors), and there just aren't that many places where you can get something built exactly to fit your space. If I was going to follow in his footsteps, I think I would probably have some personal/artistic/creative projects going on the side, and pay the bills with built in cabinets.

Anyway, it can definitely be done, though my mom recently said that there is no way my dad would have ever gotten his business off the ground if she had not been able to completely support them both financially for the first 5 years. Keep in mind though, times are definitely different now than they were in the late '70s…people are generally much more able to afford luxury items, and at least in my experience, there has been a trend recently toward higher-quality, hand-made, local items. Good luck!


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## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)

I heard somewhere, the best setup for an artist who wants to make it his profession is a spouse with a job with benefits.


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## pashley (Mar 22, 2008)

Well, that I do have, praise God.


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## brownkm (Feb 9, 2008)

Near where my folks live, there is a large group of Amish furniture makers that make nice solid-wood furniture that sells in the mid-high price range (say, around $1000 for a maple armoir like this one):

http://www.eastwoodfurniture.com/Products/Bedrooms/P61587.aspx

I know a guy that sells kiln-dried lumber wholesale in the area - says he ships out a semi-load of hardwood every week, has over 400 customers in small shops. So, it's definitely possible to make a living at building furniture… but maybe the solution is you have to live like the Amish!


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## acanthuscarver (Mar 27, 2008)

I've made my living from making high end furniture for the last 25 or 30 years. It can be done. The hard part is developing a client base. I do some "craft" shows which are more like artisan shows than what people think of as crafts. The cost to do the shows is high but the crowd they attract usually consists of people who are interested in buying high quality hand made items. And yes, I'm one of those guys who is selling dining room chairs for "$3600, or some other crazy price". It takes a long time to earn a reputation that people interested in this stuff will respect. I've seen lots of people come and go in the business. If you're going to take the plunge, and shoot for the very high end market, my suggestion is not to randomly make pieces on speculation. Everything I make is done on commission. If I had to make a living off of hauling individual pieces to shows in hopes of coming home with one or two less so i could pay the bills, I'd be living under my wood pile. Keep your overhead low and the quality high.

The clock idea might be a pretty good one for a one person small production shop. If you can work up a design that gift shops and furniture stores can sell, you might consider the wholesale market. It's a lot easier to come up with half a dozen clients that but 30 clocks a year than it is to come up with 180 clients that buy one. If you keep the pricing reasonable (and who's to say what's reasonable…) and the quality high, you could do pretty well. The key is knowing what audience is appropriate for your product and how to market to them. What ever you decide, I wish you luck.


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## pashley (Mar 22, 2008)

Thanks Chuck.

No disrespect about the $3600 chair remark; I'm sure your stuff is top shelf. Personally, I can't justify a chair costing that much. Dining table? Sure. What i've learned in this post is that the people you are aiming these products (and prices) at want the best, and don't really care about the price all that much. For them, "more" is more. The same chair, priced at $1000 or at $500? Well, the $500 must not be as good, their sub-conscious tells them.

I've also learned that if you are going to make something (in my case, clocks) that it should be the best of the best. People can't even remember the second man to walk on the moon, let alone your wood project that is not the best - see my point?

I don't know how I would make money on a commission for a clock….guess I would have to be established first for some one to commission a work? My overhead would be really low, and I would do my best for quality, and more importantly, design.

I do have some things going for me: I'm highly creative, and can identify, and replicate patterns - that is to say, I can understand designs, what makes them appealing, and bring them into my projects. I am also very well versed at website styling and implementation.

I'm leaning towards clocks because :

• They are easy to store and ship (practical)
• Overhead would be low (financial)
• I don't have a large shop, so space is a consideration. (practical)
• I'm interested in them personally (passion)
• I have the skillset necessary (skill)
• I am also versed in other arts, such as clay and mosaics, elements of which I can incorporate for unique designs (uniqueness)

Thanks again, good to hear from you!


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## scott1942 (Mar 29, 2008)

After reading the posts above, I couldn't help but think of the old saying about how to make a small fortune at woodworking: start with a large fortune…


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## acanthuscarver (Mar 27, 2008)

Patrick,
I understood that the $3600 chair comment wasn't aimed at anyone with the intent of disrespect. The problem is, the $3600 chair can't be made for $1000 or $500. If I spend 80 or 90 hours making a chair, how could I possibly sell it for $1000? Part of the reason that people like me get the prices we charge is because, even in the best of situations, we have overhead costs and we like to be paid a living wage. I'm fortunate enough to have clients who agree. There's far more to it than appealing to their sub-conscious. 
Even if you work out of your basement or garage, you have to consider the space you use as part of your overhead. In other words, if you take up 1/3 of your total living space with your new business, then your business needs to generate 1/3 of the operating expenses for your home, at least, plus pay you for your time. You also have to consider advertising costs, insurance, machine maintenance, materials and consumable goods used within your shop as expenses. In other words, you need to consider it a business if you really want to make money. 
You have a bunch of the right ideas in your bullet posts. It certainly sounds like you have plenty of enthusiasm. The mantle clocks may not be the best example of a product you shouldn't make on speculation but it doesn't hurt to make one or two as examples and try to take commission orders from there. The pay is always seems better if the product is sold before you build it. I've built over 60 tall case clocks. I only own two. None of the others was built with the intention of trying to find someone to buy a piece that I had $3000 or $4000 invested in materials plus hours and hours of time so that I could buy groceries next week. All of them were made for specific people who gave me a deposit and knew I would make them something special. 
Keep thinking along the lines in which you started this post and you should be fine. Just try to brainstorm as many factors that should contribute to the price of your clocks as you can. This way you won't get into this venture and feel like all your time and effort is going to pay for the business. If you price your clocks solely on the basis of (and these numbers are purely hypothetical) you want to make $15 per hour (your $30K per year) and the wood and clock works cost you $30, a clock that takes 3 hours to make should sell for $75, you've only got part of the real cost figured. 
Please feel free to visit my website and shoot me an email any time you have a question. I'll do my best to help out but remember, the advise is worth exactly what you're paying for it.


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## pashley (Mar 22, 2008)

Thanks for the education on your pricing structure, Chuck. If I have a weak point in this equation, it's estimations - I am notoriously bad at estimating things (when to leave to be on time for an appmt, how much wood it will take to build a table, etc). I'm learning Google Sketchup so that I can use it to generate accurate plans in which i can hopefully waste less material, and get a more accurate idea of cost of materials. It's been a bit of a pain to learn (and I'm very computer literate), but I think it will be worth it.

I believe marketing will be the big challenge; people can't purchase what they are unaware of. Fortunately, the internet gives guys like a us a level playing field; you no longer have to have a huge store to display your wares. My targeted product, mantel clocks, has, from what I can see, a limited number of competitors (for the handmade stuff). Also, I can put up an awesome website, though i must work on my photography skills.

I realize that the more quickly I can produce a product (while maintaining high quality), the better.

I am a stay-at-home dad currently, and have been since 2001. About 1 1/2 years ago, I took an evening part-time job to help with the bills. Thats nets about $750 a month. I'd like to replace that income with the clock venture, and then some. The job is boring, honestly, and I'd like to get out of it, and work on something I enjoy, and take pride in.


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## stevez_51 (Apr 2, 2008)

I was once told by a woodworker (who has several pieces in museums) that as a crafts person your eye is much more discerning than that of your customer. She told me that you have to be careful about the amount of time you spend on projects because your customer will never see the things you see. Be realistic about the amount of time you spend on a project because of course the longer you spend on it, the less money you make.


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## pashley (Mar 22, 2008)

I'm sure that is very true. When I make a piece, I think "it came out alright, but I should have done THIS better, or 'Man, look at the patch i made, everybody's going to see that' "

Other people will say how nice it is, and never notice the flaws I see. I guess I just want no one to find fault with my piece.

The bottom line is, measure and cut carefully, so you're not going back and having to either repair your screw up or waste more material and time - both issues I have.

Thanks, Steve!


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## motthunter (Dec 31, 2007)

The secret to any business is first finding your market. You can easily sell 3600 dollar chairs if you have a market with that kind of money. You can't sell it in a place where folks make low wages. If oyu want ot make money, think about these issues first

1) What is my skill level and how is the finish on my finished goods?
2) Do I want to make my money in mass quantities at a low margin or high margin with special materials and unique work. (like pressure treated lumber Adirondack chairs versus Maloof style rockers made from waterfall bubinga)
3) Where can I sell my goods? Stores, craft shows, Ebay, etc.
4) How much real profit will I make after sale including all expenses like rent, electrical, raw materials, labor, supplies, equipment costs, etc.)

Making money is about the bottom line. If you can't take your final price and subtract all of the costs, fixed and variable form it leaving you money, you are not making money.


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## teenagewoodworker (Jan 31, 2008)

you can just you really want to have a decent shop to start off with and at least a couple of people who will pay for your work. this way you know you'll have some work and your business wont be in 30+ thousand dollars of debt for tools to start off with. just my 2 cents.


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## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)

another thing to consider is Total Cycle Time (TCT) ... this includes Q time or how long your piece sits on the shelf waiting to be sold.


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## tooldad (Mar 24, 2008)

I am a cabinet/furniture maker that has to be a shop teacher to make a living. Tell me that isn't sad. Actually I think it is a good combination, not to toot my own horn too loud. I get to teach my hobby, and have summers off and get to do side jobs which are always intersting, however I can say no if I really don't want to and not have to worry about when the next check is coming in.

As one other said, since you are not replacing an income, this might work for you. At the traveling woodworking show this year there was a vendor that was selling business opportunities to make cedar adirondack chairs. However the startup costs were about $5k, but he claimes it is for the garage workshop as a second income, or retiree income, or if the determination was there it could be a sole source of income. Sorry I didn't keep the paperwork. OUr class just got done building 72 cedar chairs as a project. They were popular among teacher requests.


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## Rxmpo (Feb 23, 2008)

I really couldn't agree more with the advice Chuck has given.

Start very small. Build your business on word of mouth because a one man shop for a guy who is starting out in this business could get overwhelmed quickly. I read the advice given by a pro to someone else posing this very question about where to start and he said you need to do two things: first build what the customer wants, not what YOU think the customer SHOULD want and secondly your target market should be the type of people who can have anything. You cannot compete with Crate & Barrel. Your market should be for those seeking "one of a kind" pieces, because those automatically come with a pricing premium. Good luck.

Hey tooldad, you have the best job anywhere!


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## Obi (Oct 19, 2006)

I built this coffee table for a friend and he paid $1,200.00. Hickory (dent resistant) with walnut drawers (six of them), 8 coates of high gloss lacquer (should stay shiney for a while) and doweled with walnut dowels (should stay together for a while also).

Let's see Wally World come up with that (not to mention the dovetailed drawers).

But don't quit your day job just yet.


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## pashley (Mar 22, 2008)

You got that right, Obi. The "furniture" these big boxes sell is just awful, isn't it? Sometimes the design is pretty good, in terms of style, but the construction - YECCH!

And it's not just the pressboard / put-it-together-yourself stuff either. I was just looking at an ad we received in the Sunday paper, from two stores, Bassett and another similar local company. You look thru it, and wow does everything look good; nice staging, wonderful descriptions - except they never reveal what wood the pieces are made of. All they say is "Cherry Finish" or "Oak Finish" - what the heck is that?! Slick marketing, that's what. They toss those important words out there, Cherry, Oak, etc, and your brain hears that it's made of those woods. My guess is they are made in Asia or Mexico of some local species, and they "Cherry Finish" will rub off in a couple of years - thats what happened with some bar stools we bought at one of these places. They are very solid - I'll give them that - but the finish is wearing off (and not from abuse).

The challenge is to get across to customers that what they are buying will last generations.


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## WIwoodworker (Apr 10, 2008)

Hi Pashley. I'm new to this site but know a number of people who've taken the plunge and have done OK. One makes kitchen accessories like cutting boards, utensil organizers, etc. The other makes pens, bottle stoppers, bud vases…small stuff he can turn in a short amount of time. Maybe that will give you some additional ideas. Good luck with your venture.


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## Taigert (Nov 20, 2007)

Yjis has been a lot of food for thought.
Chuck I totaly understand what you had to say. If your going to do it amd not make money you shoild file for a 501-C


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## mtnbikecrash (Jan 31, 2008)

Great forum guys. I have just quit my corporate world business job to completely focus all of my efforts on making a living woodworking. This forum was a great discussion to spur thought and help me with some upcoming decisions. Thankfully my wife has a successful business that keeps us in food and accomodations. On the day I turned in my notice at work, I told her that she is officially my "SUGAR MOMMA." When I got home she said "Hey MOOCH"

Good Luck Patrick. Thanks for starting this post.


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## pashley (Mar 22, 2008)

Good luck to you too, sir!

I don't know if you are aware of our marketing expert here,* Ad Marketing Guy - Bill* but he's got a ton of good info. You can find it here.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

If you want to make money in crafts you need to find something
that an easy to reach group will buy.

That's it.

Most people, really don't give a hoot about handmade furniture…
or if they do they won't put their money where their mouths
are. Marketing to them is a waste of your time.

Even many wealthy people choose the instant gratification of
shopping from big furniture stores. They are accustomed to paying
a lot of money but they are not accustomed to waiting for 
delivery.

In the area of custom cabinets and built-ins you have them over 
a barrel. The need the work to feel happy and it's of weird
dimensions or must be custom because they need special 
features.

Mostly it's about solving awkward space problems with people's
homes. That almost has to be your bread and butter if you
are starting out and need to make a living. Work on your 
design and sales skills and you can outsource drawers, doors,
and even most carcasses easily. You'll make more money this 
way and not work as hard.

If you want to make some real money at it you need to have 
a serious mind for marketing and also a realistic attitude about 
who will buy easily.

If you want to do commercial work it can be very lucrative. 
You'll probably need an edge-bander at the least to do the 
plastic laminate and melamine work your commercial clients
will want.

If you don't live in an area where there are affluent people you
may be in trouble. Poor people don't buy handcrafted furniture.

When I had my woodworking business going I could get jobs and 
satisfy clients but I was running myself ragged with it. I knew how
to do the business/marketing and I could do the actual work but
doing both wore me down.

Hope this all helps.

Many of you here are up the creek because you want to sell what you
like to make, not what people are eager to buy.

For most of you marketing your woodwork online is probably a waste
of effort. Sorry for being blunt. A website can help you if YOU 
drive traffic to it. Don't fantasize about clients reaching out to you
over the web to order your furniture. You need to go out and 
reach people much more aggressively.

I now work as a freelance marketing consultant and ad copywriter.
Anybody out there who is serious about building a business doing
custom work may contact me about setting up direct mail marketing
and web marketing, finding a niche market you are qualified to serve
and romancing the interior designers and architects who can get
you the big lucrative jobs building stuff for rich people.


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## NY_Rocking_Chairs (Jul 20, 2008)

Patrick,

I am one of those $3600 chair guys and I sell perhaps 4 a year. Though even if you worked full time at it, each chair would still take 2-3 weeks, if you sold 20 chairs a year, you perhaps reap a profit of $2800 a chair. We are talking about a lot of ifs. I work full time as an engineer to pay the bills and use the wood-working to pay for itself and make some side money. The shop is completely self-sufficient and even a little in the green this year, but that is after 3 years of marketing, dealing with local galleries, getting the web site marketed, etc. The most I could do is 10 chairs a year, and that would be not doing any other projects.

However, there is a local who has a 3 year waiting list, so if you get yourself established where you can get full-time work, then I think you can make a decent living at it. Again, it is finding a niche, doing it well, getting recognized and in demand.

Good luck!


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## daved (Sep 5, 2008)

I will share with you my experience in making money woodworking. I built a desk for my daughter from a wood magazine design, had built an entertainment center, dining room furniture etc. Daughter outgrew the table, I was selling it in a gargae sale, someone saw it and and asked what else have you built? I showed them and they brought over their home plans and asked me to bid on the kitchen cabinets. I already had a full time job, wife worked and I had a retirement income from the military. I figured out how much cherry would be needed, hardware and figured twenty dollars an hour labor. After they were installed I realized I would be broke if it wasn't for other income and I had no family life for two months building in every spare moment. I saw an ad in the paper for a woodworker to build unfinished furniture for an artist to paint and sell. She was a genius and I was a glutton for punishment. I built fairly complex bowed front/queen anne leg chest of drawers. Poplar and plywood.My bandsaw and I became intimate friends. I got so fast I could make three a week for 500.00 profit each. She could paint them and sell through interior decorator showrooms for 3500.00. I branched out into beds and assorted other furniture and was able to quit my day job but the production got to be brutal. I tried to break away into other custom work like built in entertainment centers and furniture but the brutal work was paying the bills and the demand for it did not allow me to do the enjoyable things and the sheer physical labor was tearing my body down. After two years I called it quits. I learned a lot about how to get an assembly line going and how to get the most out of a 12/4 piece of poplar in the least amount of time, and how the enjoyment factor of woodworking can slowly fade away. I still build for my wife and a occasional rocking horse for friends new baby. There are some niches out there but you have to be at the right spot at the right time and have some backup cash flow.


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## kolwdwrkr (Jul 27, 2008)

I'm pondering the list of cabinet shops that shut down in my area alone this year, mine could be next. The stories about making thousands and thousands of dollars are fairy tales for the small shop. It's not about how well you build it, you may be a master. It's not about your sales pitch either. It's about the market, the number of shops and competitors in the area, etc. It's a pipe dream to think that you can come up with a good piece and sell it over and over and over. Because guess what, there will be someone else taking the idea and low balling the price. They will be taking work from you. Then, others will follow suit. How many people build a Maloof chair? How many people build a Krenov style cabinet? Unless your name is huge like theirs you will be just another one of us that have to fight and struggle to sell ourselves. Besides that, how do you intend on producing so many pieces? Then comes in the employees, workers comp, the need for a shop, more tools geared for production, etc. You'll eventually be paying for to many people and won't be doing the work yourself anyway. You'll be unhappy and over worked. And in the end there still won't be any money. But good luck  I'll cross my fingers for you


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