# Estimates for cost



## Tikka (May 14, 2007)

This is the latest offering from Fine woodworking. I have a few customers who really like this bed, but they think it is too expensive.

I am estimating around about 150 hours of work and the material cost is about $650 (either Walnut or Mahogany), including Oil, waxs, stain, sandpaper and hardware (purchase and trasportation of the lumber).

So to anybody who has read the article

*Do you think that 150 Hours of work (total) is a fair estimate?*

*What price tag would you place on this bed (without the matress)? I am doing this, or least trying to do this for a living (full time)*

The price should be based on the work in your area/country (no currency conversion please)

I'll tell you all in a few days what I was going to charge and it was rejected as too expensive!

Thank you LJs

Ps Some of the dimesions are wrong in the magaizine, I am just recalculation them at the moment


----------



## GaryK (Jun 25, 2007)

I would figure 120 hours and about $4250 USD.

3 weeks at 40/week.

But that's just a guess. I don't woodwork for a living.


----------



## tenontim (Feb 24, 2008)

I read this article and the most time consuming part of the construction would be making the "X slats". I might estimate about 100 hours. In my area this bed made of walnut or cherry, I would estimate about $3500-3800.


----------



## Chipncut (Aug 18, 2006)

That's a beautiful bed,

I think you're in the ball park with your estimate, but I'll leave that to the pros.


----------



## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

Tony:
You could build a jig for the slats top and bottom and that reduces the bed back to a bed.

I think I see two sets of 14 pieces with double tenons.
They could be bandsawn which would involve considerable hand finshing or if they are flat(???) run through a shaper or router table.

You could short cut them with a full mortice and block the spaces with precut fillers.
I would allow about 16-20 hours for these.

I'm sure not a pro by any means so I am really not sure what to allow for the actual bed frame.
Finishing could be tricky with so many surfaces too.

Tony, You might be wise to run a prototype on this new project to be sure of your time and technique of choice.

Bob


----------



## teenagewoodworker (Jan 31, 2008)

i think somewhere from 3700 - 4000. if it took you around 150 hours you should get some pretty good pay.


----------



## sbryan55 (Dec 8, 2007)

If you are going to spend 150 hours on the project then you should be charging in the $6500 to $7000 range. That lets you net between 20 and 25 per hour, which I doubt seriously that you will get rich working at this rate.

I know of very few people who would be willing to pay this for a bed.


----------



## DanLyke (Feb 8, 2007)

The last time I bought a mattress we paid about fifteen hundred for it, but the time before that we paid quite a bit more, and were looking at mattresses that ran from about thirty five hundred clear to twelve thousand dollars. I don't think there's anything at all out of line in asking someone for eight to twelve thousand bucks for a bed if they're going to put a mattress that costs that much on top of it, especially since decent bedding could easily run another seven hundred to a thousand bucks (what does a good Egyptian cotton duvet cover run?).

It'd have to be a piece they were in love with, but I don't see how you could make money at it for less; as a business you not only have to cover your time, you also have to cover your capital investments.


----------



## jeffthewoodwacker (Dec 26, 2007)

I have built a ton of furniture over the past 35 years and I can tell you from experience that you never get what you think your labor costs are worth. 120-150 hours of labor is a good estimate for the bed frame project. There will be a lot of finish work involved in this piece. If I was selling it I would ask a minimum of $4200 for it--more depending on the wood used. Most folks will tell you that they can go to a furniture store and get it cheaper and I tell them to head on over and really look to see if they are getting solid wood or glued together sawdust.


----------



## Obi (Oct 19, 2006)

I didn't read the article, but at first glance my first thought was $2,800 USD just for the bed. But then, what do I know?


----------



## Tikka (May 14, 2007)

Obi - Is your sprinkler system up an running yet - no news on the planes!


----------



## BigTim (Jan 17, 2008)

150 hours sounds like a good starting point. The problem is you skill level, tools avalable & how much time it takes you to set up & make any jigs, if needed. only you can decide if it sounds right. & only experience will tell you how good you are at estimating. 
If you are lucky enough to get orders for more than one bed, you may loose $'s on the first & make $"s on any additional sales. You have to sell yoursef & the "one of a kind" aspects of a commisioned piece. Tell the customer your costs-both material & an estimate of time involved. If you can educate the customer in what goes into making a QUALITY piece of furniture they may understand & open the checkbook.
The other thing to think of is do you sell thur any gallieries? My prices tend to be high, due to the fact that most of my sales are thru "middlemen", either shops or Shows. Shops will take 40-50% of the total sale. Shows can run $1-2,000 and up . I can & do offer discounts for commission work, but I have had to sign agreements to NOT advertise anything less than what the stores are asking for my work. That kind of overhead is a real killer.


----------



## MikeLingenfelter (Feb 19, 2007)

Here's a link to a gallery here in Seattle that sells handcrafted furniture.

www.nwfinewoodworking.com

From looking at their prices I'd say that bed would go for $4,000 to $5,000. Dorje and I are going to be stopping by there tonight. I'll get a good look at what the quality is like, but it looks topnotch.


----------



## motthunter (Dec 31, 2007)

150 hours sounds good.. I would want to make more than one at a time to better utilize my set up time.


----------



## LesHastings (Jan 26, 2008)

I figure 95 build hours, 25 hours in finish, if material cost 650.00=====total cost 9300.00


----------



## tenontim (Feb 24, 2008)

Looking at all of these estimates, you have to consider the amount of overhead each one is working with. Some have less than others. If you're making furniture professionally, then you should already know what you have to make to show a profit.


----------



## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

I'd bet even lower. 72 hours X 35.00 + 650.00 = 3200.00. That is with a sprayed on finish.


----------



## Tikka (May 14, 2007)

Everybody has different overheads, it is really the estimated hours I am looking for. The selling price obviously depends upont the hourly rate.

For example if I was living in *London *the hourly rate would pobably have to be about $60/hour (where the cost of living is exteemly high), whilst living in the North East of England it may only be 20$/hour (lower cost of living).

At the end of the day, any piece of furniture is only worth what somebody else is willing to pay for it. I do this for a full time occupation, but estimating costs can be a little difficult sometimes - hence the plee for feedback. Obviously I could make the bed for cost of materials only, but, I do have to make some money to pay this bills, so I have got to get it correct. I also have a very small market in which to sell.

I am not in this proffession to make a fortune, the best woodworker in the world could not make a fortune here selling custom built pieces, but it does keep me busy and happy, what more could you ask for (any Finnish marketing people reading this thread - I need your help).

So please keep those estimated hours comming - this bed, as with nearly all my furniture will be hand finished, no spraying allowed for fine furniture (my rule) - Thanks to all so far


----------



## Tangle (Jul 21, 2007)

By my formula the price would be $9957. That's at 150 hours at $40/hour and 30% profit. So I agree with Les's $9000 range.


----------



## Tangle (Jul 21, 2007)

Tony, I just looked at the other thread on priceing. I like Bob2's idea with the CNC custom shop doing the slats on the bed. That would sure bring the price down.


----------



## Tikka (May 14, 2007)

Thos, If I were going into production on these items I would agree - CNC is the way to go, but as I usually make unique different pieces every time, I cannot justify the cost of a CNC or the space.

The other thing is, I am a trying to sell unique hand made furniture, not mass produced - otherwise I would join a bigger company and do that and get NO satisfaction in my work, but thanks for the feedback any way..


----------



## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

Sam Maloof is asking and apparently getting $40,000.00 for his famous rocking chair.
He is booked up for copies beyound his life expectancy.
The point being that there are people out there willing to by the best regardless of the price.
The fellow making those gorgeous capstan tables that command $100,000.00 is also booked solid.

Tony , charge what it is worth to you and let the customers sort themselves out.

Cheers
Bob


----------



## Tikka (May 14, 2007)

If and when I get as famous as Mr. Maloof, I will let my customers fight over me, but at the present time, Just starting up the business - I am fighting for customers.

Bob, If you find a customer who is willing to pay 20K for the bed, I give you 10K comission (cash in the hand), I'll even fly over and give the $bills my self.


----------



## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

I know what you mean Tony.
An aquaintance of mine builds pool tables. 
He had limited success selling them here as they were $30,000.00 each and up.
He now sells them through Ceasars Palace in Las Vegas.
-Not fast but steady.

In order to make a rabbit stew, you must first catch a rabbit. <g>

Just do what you can do and let your name get out there.

Good luck

Bob


----------



## DocK16 (Mar 18, 2007)

Hmmmm, interesting thread so far. Seems like some are basing the price more on the customers abilty to pay than value of the piece. I read FWW article on this bed, hours to complete this obviously depends alot on the skill and experince of the craftsman. I don't have much experience at pricing my work but I would say agree on the price before hand then hopefully you will both be happy enough to do some future buisness. When you get as famous as Sam I'll say I knew when you were a meager lumberjock.


----------



## swied (Feb 6, 2008)

You said you could make one bed with 150 hours of work. What if you made two at the same time? Maybe 200 or 250 hours? Certainly not 300. What about doing three or four? If you can line up enough customers for the same item, then you can take advantage of the economies of scale.


----------



## Tikka (May 14, 2007)

Swied

I do not know if it will take 150 hours or not, hence the question "*Do you think that 150 Hours of work (total) is a fair estimate?*"

I am trying to link a couple more customers together at the moment for this project. But you must remember we only have avery small population here and the salaries are quite low in comparision to other countries - If I could sell 2 of these beds a year I would think myself lucky, so to make 4 at the same time, the profit margin goes up, but the material costs would be about $2500 - that is a lot of monet to have tied up in a product which would be more difficult to sell than others.

I recalculated the time today and stiill came up with the same answer about 150 hours for one, but for the second and subsiquent beds, made at the same time, I recconed on an additional 80 to 100 hours - It is all hand worked - Unfortunately I do not have the space to make more than two or three at the same time.

Thanks for the constructive comment


----------



## TheSteve (Feb 10, 2008)

here's my 2 cents…

If your wanting to sell peices on a hourly price then I would invest in a stop clock to keep track of your actual work time in the future.. I.E. stop for a smoke stop the clock… stop to talk to wife/friend/etc stop the clock. I would keep a notebook with daily work time for the project etc. You could keep seperate times for planing, designing, problemsolving, etc or even price finishing different from building. Little breaks make a big difference in the end, alot more then you think, and if you want to price on an hourly basis that would make your pricing alot more accurate. This would also give you a detailed work schedule that you could show customers that breaks down actual times and $ value.

Another thing. It sounds like you get the idea of selling your high end handmade quality. When your making and selling peices with price tags like these the customer has to understand what all goes into making a fine peice of furniture like this. I bet you would be suprised how many customers dont understand the reasoning behind the methods used in fine furniture vs mass produced methods. I.E. "All of these joints are mortise and tenon. That means the 2 peices of solid wood are actually imbeded into each other making the strongest joint possible." thats just an example, but you could build onto that subject and go into other methods that make the bed a quality peice. If someone doesnt understand the differences in your bed and a bed at wal-mart, what justifys them to spend the extra money? knowledge makes them feel more comfortable, then that knowledge lets them see the difference and think about how long the bed will last, the braging rights that come with having a peice of this quality, etc.

just thought id share, take it as you will 

~Steve


----------



## Greg3G (Mar 20, 2007)

Tony, time estimates are personal item. It really depends upon how quickly you move through your shop and how well you organize your work.

I do use this lik fairly often to help estimating work.

http://www.bridgewooddesign.com/estimator/


----------



## Justin (Feb 11, 2008)

Tony,
I am not that good a figuring time yet, I always seem to under figure my hours. Honestly, I would have to sit down and really look at what it would take for me to do that bad. But you know what, I think I would figure it wrong and end up having as much time as you are saying it would take to do it. So I think you may be dead on with the 150 hours. One thing I would do is finish it all apart, then do my glue up. Unless like the artical you are doing a BLO finish and wax. That thing would be a nightmare in my mind to get all the surfices to come out nice and even if I was spraying it. The other thing, I believe you already know is you need jigs, other wise you will be wasting time to make everything look the same. 
I am a firm believer in making what you are worth, not making what you can get out of people. So for me to make that bed I would say you are looking at anywheres from $4800.00 to $5500.00. I think you can do it in less hours then a 150. But I think 150 also covers your butt for when it take longer then the 120 you (when I say you I mean me) may think you can do it in.
Another idea you want to try is emailing the contributing editor and see what he has to say for how long it takes him to build it? Can't hurt right?

Good luck and let us know how you make out with it.

Justin


----------



## Tikka (May 14, 2007)

*Justin *- A good idea about the e-mail, it is just a shame they did not put this simple thing into the article.

*Greg* Thanks for the link - I already do this using an excel spread sheet for all my projects, but I ran through the calculator and it came out with the same figure.

*Steve* All that time and record keeping would probably take more time than the work - but I take your point. My customers are invited during the many processes to come along and witness the building, or to make decisions at certain points in the project giving them the chance to make changes or decisions.

My website is being updated at the moment and I should include a little more detail on the build process, unfortunately the translation takes quite some time.

We do not have a Wall mart, but I do have to contend with IKEA - lets be honest, IKEA quality is good for what it is "Throw away after a few years". I try not to even compete with stores like this, if people want this then let them buy it, I just try to educate them in the difference in quality. I build pieces that will last a lifetime or even generations.
-----------------------------------
ALL good points raised and appreciated - this is becoming a useful thread not only to me, but to others, and it does not hurt to reiterate some of these points again and again over time - Thanks to all.


----------



## DocK16 (Mar 18, 2007)

Tony; 
FYI

http://www.passionforwood.com/finefurn/bed.htm


----------



## TheSteve (Feb 10, 2008)

I'm just a fan of records. It's not as much work as you would think, try to find a clock that keeps a running time that pauses, so you dont keep starting from 0. that cuts down on all the mathwork of adding time together. I use methods like this in alot of different business applications. It will also give you a very good reference for future use in bidding or pricing items on your skill level. The more you record, the better your reference guide will get. The level of detail you go into is all personal preference. As for me, I would use it to compile lists of different joints, be it sliding dovetails, mortise tenon, half laps, etc etc. Add in different types of wood, what sizes the joints are etc. After awhile you will have a pretty nice reference guide that you can look back to and get a nice estimate with. I.E. a mortise tenon in 1/2×2 x 18 stock takes "X" minutes per , times the ammount of joints in the project. could do the same for dimentioning lumber, and finishing, etc.

I use methods like this alot in the painting business also. I know how many sq ft a gallon of "name paint" will cover on a " slick face block / split face block / drywall / knockdown" sprayed or rolled on. I also know how long it takes for my guys to apply product to different surfaces. It is additional work, but in the end I know not guess how much material and labor it will take to get a job done, and can bid/price the job knowing my limitations on where my numbers have to be… not where I think they should be. It also shows you detailed improvement on your working speed, and I like the confidence my numbers give me =)

This method isnt for everyone, and prolly wont help with your current problem, but I thought id share my methods and maybe you will gain from it in future projects =)


----------



## Tikka (May 14, 2007)

Well it is bad new for me the customer, decided he did not want this style of bed after all, so I am now designing another for him.

The selling price by the way was 2,300€ ($3450) including taxes. This relates to about 1 months salary for a normal worker here (just to put into perspective).

Thanks to all for the feedback.


----------



## GaryK (Jun 25, 2007)

That was a little low from what I thought.

Good luck on your new design.

How about something like my medieval design:


----------



## Tikka (May 14, 2007)

Ah the price was low, but he is a good customer, Table, 10 Chairs, Bed and 2 side tables, not a bad way to start the year. What may come after that?

I have the design in my head at the moment, getting it down onto a drawing -it is just taking time (motivational problem).


----------



## davidtheboxmaker (Dec 25, 2007)

here's some alternate thinking on pricing.
How long you took to make is not really relevant to the buyer. It is of course relevant to you - tells you if you want to continue as a woodworker.
The bed has a 'market value' which you should be able to assess by looking at the selling price of other hand made, high quality beds. The fact that it appears in Fine Woodworking could add a premium to the price.
The rejection as too expensive is valuable feed back - could be another potential customer would have a different view.
If the bed sells for $5,000, it will sell for that no matter how long it took you to make it.
If you made some jigs, and became very expert at making this bed, thus saving 25% of the time to make it, does not mean that you should reduce the price by 25% - still sell it for $5,000.


----------



## OttawaP (Mar 13, 2008)

Earning a wage is not the same as running a business. For custom job like this I would charge $8940, and I'm probably giving myself some credit for being a faster woodworker than I actually am !! Never undervalue yourself or everyone else will too.


----------



## Tikka (May 14, 2007)

*Paul *- This comment was not about running a business, It is about the money people can afford to pay and where they live. The average salary here is Finland is low compared to that of California, the disposable income is far less, therfore things have to be realisticly priced.

At the end of the day, I would have been happy with the price I was going to charge, it covered my costs and made me a nice profit.

If and when I have customers banging down my doors, then I may start to increase prices accordingly


----------



## WIwoodworker (Apr 10, 2008)

Tony, I think you're on the right track by knowing who your market is. If you can make custom pieces that are affordable to your customers and you're OK with how much money you make then you're fine. Good luck.


----------



## OttawaP (Mar 13, 2008)

Tony,

I disagree. It is NOT about what people are willing to pay. Your costs are reflected in where you live so your price should be reflective of that, which may be 1/2 of what mine are or double. At the end of the day it costs what it costs and subsidizing someones dream piece of furniture to the detriment of your family is wrong. Their is an unlimited supply of cheap furniture around for everyone, no sense competing with that.
For example I drive Toyota products, I would love to have a BMW but I just don't have the money. Should the Toyota dealership give me a break because of where I live and my income ?? Of course not, it costs what it costs and I buy accordingly.
If all you want to do build build it for fun and experience and make a little tool money then that's another storey, but I think most people will get tired after several hundred or thousands of hours of work with no monetary gain at the end. What you build has value, people either appreciate it or they don't. It pays to educate them on the process and product, I do this alot with my general contracting business. 
I have lost some jobs to clients who have said, "We love your product but it's just too nice for what we want, we just want it cheap and simple". To which I reply "what I sell comes with the price tag it does because of the quality of material, products, people and service I offer. There is a standard of construction to which I build to that I won't go below because it will not be reflective of what I want to put my name on." I have never had a client not satisfied with this and some have come back after a year or two and others have gotten an quickie job by someone else but at least they were educated on the difference and made an informed decision.


----------



## brianm (Feb 16, 2008)

We are talking custom woodwork which means the customer is not satisfied with anything they have seen on the market and that is why they talk to us. From the start they know it will cost more and chances are pretty good that they can afford it within reason. Trying to compete with manufactured furniture from anywhere is impossible. You can't do it.

Average income people are paying 700.00 a foot for "custom kitchen cabinets" which in the end I consider throw away furniture because when the house is sold, you won't have any ability to use them again. Compare that which is nothing more than a machined plywood box with a hardwood face to a solid wood piece of furniture that will be passed down from generation to generation. There is no contest. The term "custom kitchen" has had a great promotion over the years and it's without a doubt profitable.

Consider this question the next time you are discussing price with someone. How much was your last car repair or how much did that new car cost? Where will it be in 10 years? Go to a auto dealer service shop and view the hourly rate they have posted. Why would your customers expect you to work for less?

Expensive or cheap is relative only to value perceived by the person writing the check.

By the way, I think you gave a fair price on the bed and it is relative to your market and without a doubt how many people are knocking on your door.

Investing some of your time to "make a customer" is as important as making a piece of furniture.

Best of luck with the project.


----------



## RusticElements (Mar 14, 2008)

Wow! A lot of advice on this subject. This is an excellent read, especially for me.

My ability to judge time REALLY sucks. And I let people know that. If I'm doing something I haven't done before (or I have and forgot to write down what I did) I give it my best guess, double it (yah, I'm usually that far off or better) and tell the customer "this is what I think it will be but the price is the price". I also tell them if they like the piece and the price when I'm done then they buy it. Otherwise I keep it and try to sell it elsewhere.

I haven't had to keep a piece yet, but then, I've never commissioned something this big before. I guess if you're going to use this method it all comes down to 1) can you afford to wait and sell it later and 2) do you have room to store it safely if you have to.

Bottom line: how much of a gambler are you and how much can you afford to gamble?

My 2 pence worth.


----------



## OttawaP (Mar 13, 2008)

"My ability to judge time REALLY sucks". I hear you on this one. What is it about woodworking that makes us think we are faster than we actually are ??? It think it comes back to the saying "time flies when you are having fun". 
The last piece I made, a custom cherry side table, I've kept track of the hours. I have not done the math yet but I'm considerably over my estimate and it's only at ready to finish stage. Good thing the "client" is my wife.


----------

