# Will Biscuits Work for me?



## hjt (Oct 22, 2009)

Per usual, happy, go luck, whistling in the shop having a great time THEN I realize I mis-measured.

I'm building a flip table to hold my planer and drill press. These two items weigh about 175 pounds total, plus the weight of the table. I had planned on doing half laps to join the horizontal piece to the vertical pieces. Instead, I cut the two vertical pieces short. While I could cut more lumber, I'm wondering if biscuits and perhaps a long screw or two from the horizontal piece into the vertical ones would provide the strength and stability I need - knowing this unit will be mobile in the shop while supporting so much weight?

So here are my questions:
1) While (I think) we can all agree half laps would be stronger, would you feel confident using a biscuit and screws for this type of project?

2) In the real carpenter trade lingo, what would the true terms be for what I'm calling horizontal and vertical pieces?

3) After all these years of making saw dust and STILL making these stupid mistakes and asking such silly questions… should I simply give up, sell the tools and spend my time doing something else (suggestions are welcomed?)


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## CharlesA (Jun 24, 2013)

biscuits will provide no strength in that joint.


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## ShaneA (Apr 15, 2011)

2) rails and stiles


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## CharlesA (Jun 24, 2013)

Pocket screws would work. Screws going directly in the end grain don't provide much strength either.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

I'd go with pocket screws unless you're set up for 
loose tenons or dowels.

If you're not set up for pocket screws, the holes
can be drilled without any special jig. Take
a 3/8" spade boring bit with spurs and drill straight
down a little to get the point engaged in the wood
then turn the bit to a sharp angle while you drill.

Screws don't hold well in end grain but you can
drill a 1/2" hole in the end grain part, glue a dowel
in there and then the dowel will hold the screws.


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## thesoninlaw (Jul 6, 2013)

+1 to ShaneA. Definitely cut more lumber
Dave


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## Vincent (Mar 10, 2009)

Pocket screws + glue should do it.


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## jumbojack (Mar 20, 2011)

#1 NO cut fresh lumber. It is a re-do

#2 See ShaneA, Rails horizontal, Stiles vertical

#3 Everyone make these 'stupid' mistakes occasionally, usually due to poor planning. There are no 'silly questions'. Buck up amigo, we all make mistakes. At least you are not a heart surgeon.


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## bondogaposis (Dec 18, 2011)

I would start over and make it right, it has to support a lot of weight and and at this this point it is not a whole lot of lumber. It will be a lot cheaper than having it fail later after the whole thing is done.


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## bbc557ci (Sep 20, 2012)

We all make mistakes even the experts, and so called experts, so if you enjoy your shop time, stay with it )

That said, think I'd just start over ie cut more wood.
What ShaneA said. Or go with loose tenons per Loren, or maybe splines?


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Any of the above ideas will work but you could also use loose tenon joinery and use the wood you have already cut.As Shane said they are called rails and stile the vertical members are the stiles and horizontal members being the rails.
Mistakes happen to the best of us even people that have been woodworking for years. Don't let a little mistake side track you,fixing mistakes is a big part of woodworking. Don't take these things to seriously ENJOY and just use a mistake as a learning experience.


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## fuigb (Apr 21, 2010)

Given the intended use and load I'd start over and stick with the half-lap joint. The band-aid of biscuits or screws will, I fear, eventally fail and likely result in damaged tools and maybe your foot.

Even the pros err, so press on so long as you're having fun. Then again maybe power down and then turn on a football game. If after five minutes you're thinking "why am I wasting my time with this" then you probably belong in the shop, foul-ups and all.


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## Woodwrecker (Aug 11, 2008)

Better to do it over & love it later on brother.


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## AngieO (Jul 9, 2012)

If you have the lumber… I'd do it over. Sometimes you don't have the extra lumber on hand though.

Glad you asked though. Curious about the biscuits. I've just recently started using them so wondering why they wouldn't work? Someone mentioned loose tenons and even dowels… Wouldn't a dowel be the same amount of support?

Anyhow… If making mistakes meant we should give up… I'd be done. Lol. I make mistakes all the time. 

Looking forward to seeing end project.


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## BillWhite (Jul 23, 2007)

At the risk of being banned forever, I must say that I've not had a biscuit joint fail.
Having said that, I don't try to support old cars with a joint of any kind. 
The rail and stile function shown is not a good one. A re-do is in order.
Bill


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## hjt (Oct 22, 2009)

Thanks boys and girls for the advice and encouragement. Guess I'll cancel my basket weaving course for now.

New Question:
So what is a loose tenons?

Also, Angie asked a good question - love to get answers on that too.

I felt the half lap would be the best - just hate re-do. I know how I made my mistake, just wonder how I did not catch it. Guess I'll be in the shop later this week to fix the goof.

And yes, Jumbojack - at least I'm not a heart surgeon.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

A loose tenon is a pair or mortises with a spline tenon
inserted in the holes. It's a versatile joint but you'll
need a plunge router with a fence and a jig that
can take some time to make.

This is an excuse to make or use a tenon jig. You can 
cut open mortises in the ends of all the parts, then
thickness spline tenons. It's a variant of the classic
saddle joint.


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## hjt (Oct 22, 2009)

Thanks Loren


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## LeeBarker (Aug 6, 2010)

I need some help understanding the problem.

What are the dimensions of the pieces?

Are these pieces a face frame?

What part of the flip table are they?

What are your crucial dimensions?

I'm not sure we're all talking about the same Green Eggs and Ham here.

I'd really like to know because I have had considerable experience dealing with this kind of, ahem, self-inflicted situation!

Kindly,

Lee


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## johnstoneb (Jun 14, 2012)

Glad you asked though. Curious about the biscuits. I've just recently started using them so wondering why they wouldn't work? Someone mentioned loose tenons and even dowels… Wouldn't a dowel be the same amount of support?

I use biscuits primarilly to aid in aligning edges when I am edge gluing there is some additional strength. I think for strength you need more surface area for the glue to adhere to the loose tenons and dowels go deeper and give you some more surface area plus they are thicker than the biscuits giving you more shear strength.

Having repaired a number achairs over the years. I would not use dowels or loose tenons in the above application. I would use the thickness spline tenon that loren has ilustrated above. It gives you double the glue surface of a half lap and it could be pinned also.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

I agree that Loren's version of a saddle joint will work fine and should be very strong,a loose tenon is strong and more attractive,but since this is shop aid your making strength is more important and Lorens saddle joint is a fair amount stronger.


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## 111 (Sep 2, 2013)

Yep, Loren's version gets my vote also.


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Start over and try again.


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## hjt (Oct 22, 2009)

Today I went back into the shop and I've begun to remake the stiles. Now they are 33 5/8 instead of 30 1/4.

Lee, to answer your questions:
I need some help understanding the problem? - The problem is that I cut the stiles too short. I wish to have the top of the flip table 37 inches tall. This will match the height of my work bench. I measured the height of the wheels and the base and should have used only those measurements. Silly me, however, included the rail - which caused me to cut the rails short

What are the dimensions of the pieces? - see above

Are these pieces a face frame? - yes this is for the two sides which will support the weight of the table and the two tools.

What part of the flip table are they? - see above

What are your crucial dimensions? - In the end I wish for the table to stand 37 inches tall. It will be approx. 26×30

I'm not sure we're all talking about the same Green Eggs and Ham here. - I like my eggs over medium, sausage - not ham!


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## LeeBarker (Aug 6, 2010)

Hi Harold-order up!

I realize you've committed, but here are a couple thoughts:

1. Sister on some 1/2" face frame stock over the preassembled existing face frame, with the bys going to and the tos going by. The joints will be strong and you will increase the back to front measurement by 1"

2. Biscuits do add strength. Here I think you're looking for anti racking, in which case the tenon suggestions are superior. That said, they would make the project somewhat overwrought (but underracked).

3. Add something at the bottom to raise the case up. Boxes between caster and box that are 3 3/8 high.

I look forward to your progress. I am having a hard time envisioning it right now.

Kindly,

Lee


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## hjt (Oct 22, 2009)

Thanks Lee. I will be writing a blog on the progress. If you've not read the first part - check it out. http://lumberjocks.com/hjt/blog/38892. make me a buddy and you'll be notified when I post the blog.


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## robscastle (May 13, 2012)

Well HJT if your not through with reading all the comments LJs have added here is one more.
in answer to Q1.
I wood recommend that you rebuild the project, reason being, a you have made an error in construction that needs to be corrected, and the best way to correct the error and learn from it id to do it correctly.
Which means a rebuild.

You could alter the design to suit and "patch" it up but will you continue this method? I think knot.
to answer Q2
The construction method, Rail and Stile has been explained in wood working terms quite well, however the process may also be called Cope and Stick just to add a little flexability.

Not much different to the references as Jointer… Planner or Shaper… Moulder.

As already explained the rail is the horizontal component.

You may want to remember it by likening it to a rail in a wooden fence, and a rail is within a post or stile never on top.
Otherwise a different name and role is involved.

The stile or vertical member has the same letter S for stile or stick
Both methods are mosty used with the completed project aligned vertically not horizontally, as the joint construction cosmetically pleasing to the eye its potential weak as its end grain to edge grain construction, this is overcome to some extent by increasing the surface area but its not a strong as your intended lap joint as its joint is a majority of matching surfaces. 
In answer to Q3
I think Jumbojack summed it up quite well, you are Knot alone in making mistakes its all relative to experience, and how do you get experience by practicing. 
Think about the process 
you are building some thing and it doesn't turn out right, so you stop and determine a better way and go again hopefully fixing the error in one pass. mistake made resolved and learned from.
Some times its not easy especially if you take on something beyond your skills, take a Look at my blog on Sloped Sided Trays if you do not believe or understand me.

If you do not enjoy your wood working and the skills required (as frustrating as it is sometimes) Give up, donate all your tools and materials to LJs we will help you clean your shop out !!!

Finally lets see a great Project post showing the completed work and we will give you a good rap!!!


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## hjt (Oct 22, 2009)

Thanks Robert. I see by your profile that you retired from Boeing. My cousin works in their Washington plant and will retire in a few years.

Thanks for your thought and input. If you go to my blog on this project can see what I've done. I'll be posting the completed project soon.

I do enjoy woodworking, just wish I was better and yes I fully understand "practice makes perfect." It's just frustrating when I make such stupid mistakes. For example: in this build there were a few times that I looked and mapped out in my mind how I was going to create the support, only to cut the wood for the inside dimension rather than the outside. So now it's too short. One wasted piece. BUT wait! I can use that for another part, Need to rip the piece (now have two) and leave one at it's current length and cut 4 inches off the other. What do I do??? I cut the 4 inches off before I made the rip. Now it's short AGAIN!! While not expensive I know on this silly project I wasted two 2×4x8.


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