# Pricing Demons



## renners (Apr 9, 2010)

OK, so it's not strictly woodworking, but I'm in a bit of a quandary here. A woman I did some work for a couple of years ago got in touch to ask if I could renovate her Mother in Law's bathroom. Total rip out and refit. The job is now done apart from a bit of grouting, getting rid of the rubbish and giving her the bill.

This job has taken two weeks, but all the time, her husband has been like a wasp in my ear "me Mother's getting anxious, she wants to move back in, when can she move back in?" - checking in at lunch time, checking in in the evening "when can me Mother move back in?". So to expedite the return of this guy's ancient mother, I have absolutely busted my nuts to get this done, 11, 12, 14, 15 hour days. Of course, it wasn't an easy job, it was an old house of dubious construction, with unexpected surprises. The whole floor was rotten, the concrete subfloor had a tar dampcourse that had a layer of water underneath, pipes had to be channelled into the floor (under a shower tray) and tiling on uneven walls. You get the picture. 130 hours of dust and hard graft.

So now I've worked out the bill, labour only, and even if I only charge what everyone else charges here, it still comes to a lot. But it's not like I've spent hours drinking tea and smoking ******************** and talking about the state of the nation.

Everything that needed to be done has been done - and done properly, and neatly - and it was hard and I was focused on it all the time. And with the end now in sight it's like I have an Angel on one shoulder saying "she's an elderly widow, don't charge that much, give her a discount" and a demon on the other shoulder saying "Don't be a sap, you earned that money, midnight finishes? take it, take it all"

So who would you listen to?


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

renners, charge what you agreed upon plus all changes and surprises.


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## hobby1 (Feb 10, 2012)

Maybe this would help,

Since your labeling in your mind, that an angel is saying one thing and a demon is saying another,
shows right there that you have a concious of what is right and what is wrong, 
so let your concious be your guide, 
and if you are a Christian, than you can hear what God says about it, and what He says, will be the very best deal for you, and her both, to benefit from, that way you recieve your recompence reward, that fully meets all the work that God enabled you to do for her, plus enough to give back to God the tithe (tenth of income), necessary to have God provide more work for you, when you need it.


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## renners (Apr 9, 2010)

What would Jesus do Deek?


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

Shouldn't have this all been agreed to before the job began?

Doesn't say somewhere in the bible " an honest days work for an honest days pay", something like that.

Do you not have a family to support.

No advice here, just some thoughts.


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## renners (Apr 9, 2010)

Did I mention my angle grinder made the ultimate sacrifice also…


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

Now you see why Jesus gave up carpentry.

Don't be a sap, charge them a fair price + a PITA surcharge for the husband.

I hired a guy last year to do a similar job and it was all on paper, time estimate, his rate, who was paying for materials, that he would clean up and haul away debris, starting time each day, each day would not exceed 8 work hours + lunch, when payments were due, etc. and the understanding that tearing into a house can reveal unforeseen problems that may exceed the original estimate. We had to pay the first day's labor upfront + materials. When he got a little behind he brought in his son to help; didn't cost me a dime extra. The guy was awesome, also he was a Buddhist.


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

renners, The Jesus gave free advice but never free woodwork. Follow The Jesus example…


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## joeyinsouthaustin (Sep 22, 2012)

+1 to Rick M's description… My simple remodel contract is 4.5 pages long. There should be no surprises at the end, if it was taken care of in the beginning…

Indecently, I first used that contract years ago when a lady in her 90's hired me, based on reputation, but demanded no work could happen until she saw a contract. I owe her for that one, and she gave me all her husbands tools as a tip. (he had passed some time ago)

This is what it looks like for me… if this helps.. By the time work starts a client has signed a quote, a proposal, any drawings or finish samples, a contract, and has given a deposit.

To give confidence.. don't feel bad for charging what you are worth. I see something like this happening. She wanted to do this, and pay someone. The husband probably tried to talk the family out of it, and thinks it is worthless for an old lady to renovate anything, and anyone will just be a hack trying to rip an old lady off. Ignore him, the way it is described, he was not your client.


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## 69BBNova (May 1, 2012)

Just because their an older couple don't assume they cant afford to make the payment…

Their are plenty of people I know that cry about how they can't afford this or that…

The last years of my stepdads life when I had to take him to a doctor just because suddenly he'd want to go he quote the price of gas at the pump…

Meanwhile I was driving his crazy expensive Mercedes of which he bought 2 the same day…

So just be aware is my advise.


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## 111 (Sep 2, 2013)

Seems like everytime I give somebody a break, the next thing I hear is how there importing some 12,000 dollar rug from Spain to go in the room.
It's OK to give them a break, but you should at least charge enough to make it worthwhile. 
Remember, you can always lower the price if they are shocked, but it's hard to add.
I would start out with what you want and go from there.


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## renners (Apr 9, 2010)

It was a dirty, horrible, ********************ty job, that many people would have walked away from.

They wanted me to do it instead of relying on and coordinating all different trades to come in so it could be done more quickly.

I put in the hours to get it done as quickly as possible, everything is done right, I am not charging a premium for working into the night.

Nobody could have known how bad the floor was until the tiles came off.

Even the guy delivering the tiles said to get it done in a week you'd need three people.

I have done nothing wrong. Why do I feel almost guilty about the cost?


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## 111 (Sep 2, 2013)

Because you have a good heart!


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

renners, give me their number…I'll call them.


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## Tooch (Apr 6, 2013)

I'm reminded of a parable about people who were hired to work. The first group was hired to work all day for a gold coin. upon seeing the work wasn't going to be finished, the land owner hired a second group to work Half a day for the same, a gold coin. Getting into the evening, the land owner noticed he still needed some help, so hired a few men to work an hour or two for a gold coin.

The men who had worked all day complained about the men who had worked only an hour and got paid the same amount. The land owner said "'Friend, I am not being unfair to you. Didn't you agree to work for a denarius? Take your pay and go. I want to give the man who was hired last the same as I gave you. Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?"

Charge them what you agreed upon, what you earned. You know what it should be. Don't be greedy, don't be foolish…. a tough task in this situation.

Good luck


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## JGM0658 (Aug 16, 2011)

What the hell?!?...Looks like you do this for a living, why the second thoughts? If you are hesitant because you think the future word of mouth will be that you are "too expensive" don't be! This is a good thing, you get rid of the tire kickers and people who want you to fix stuff for a few bucks, after all it is only woodwork, all you need is a few nails and a hammer.

If you did this without a contract, then you are a fool. As they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Now you probably won't get paid for even your costs. The job you did is a nightmare job and you should have known this and give at least an estimate to your former client.

Sorry renners, but I get the feeling you are going to get the short end of the stick on this one. Let us know what happened.


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## GaryC (Dec 31, 2008)

Just a thought here. You said you had already done some work for her. She has an idea of what's coming. Put your price out there. If a problem comes up, you can always negotiate.


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## longgone (May 5, 2009)

You should certainly charge what you know your efforts are worth and most importantly don't undervalue your skills. Once a person starts doubting the value of their skill and time then it becomes a difficult uphill climb to get back where you should be pricing wise.
These people need to be explained the entire extent of what you had to go through even more so than you explained here…including the normal work and all of the unforeseen problems you encountered..


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

renners, after having read the responses, conjugated (algebraicly speaking) the imagined and theoretically postulated numerous outcomes I have come to prefer my idea over any other advice including anything The Jesus may contrive to bring justice to the forefront. Give me their number. I'll handle it…


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## UpstateNYdude (Dec 20, 2012)

Sounds like you busted your ass and went well beyond what another contractor would have done for her, I'd hand them the bill for what the devil is whispering and if she's shocked get an hourly quote from a couple other contractors in the area at their hourly rate and factor in the materials and then show them what they would have paid.

I wouldn't short change myself if I were you she doesn't like it as others have said negotiate down you can't go the other direction.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

Itemize it out. Give them a bill. You should be paid as 
agreed. Probably the worst outcome is they offer to 
pay part of it in installments.

If the invoice is meticulously itemized the client can
really look it over and think about it. This is a
preferable outcome to setting up a confrontational
meeting where you have to verbally defend the
bill.

If at some points in the job you weren't giving them
their money's worth, then feel free to penalize yourself
for slacking… but if you put in solid time and you
agreed to be paid hourly after the job, then ask
for what was agreed.


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## Purrmaster (Sep 1, 2012)

I'd say the fact that you're even agonizing over this shows that you have a good heart. You're exactly the kind of person I'd want for my contractor.

Itemizing sounds like a good idea. They can see exactly what the costs are.

Another factor to consider might be what kind of word of mouth advertising they would give you. It sounds like the man might not give you your due.

If nothing else, kudos to you for the work you've done and your conscience.


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## hobby1 (Feb 10, 2012)

If this is the first incident where you feel this way, and all other times these thoughts never entered your mind, then God is allowing you to have a catch in your spirit, there is something that He see's is going on in her life, or is going to come into her life, that may involve her financially, and as you ask God to show you why He is allowing you to be caught in your spirit like this, I know He will show you what is best for you and her both, it may also be that God has some great working jobs lined up for you, that involves integrety, and He wants to give you the oppurtunity to sew good seed, so you can reap a bountiful harvest financially when you have great need for it, the ways of God are always for the best interest in every person involved.

This may be more about your integrety, that is going to shine in the long run, which will allow people to choose you for contract work, in the future, when financial times get tougher.
They will see someone who cares, and God will always reward that kind of response.

The reason why I am posting these things, is because of the title you gave it, you are seeing something beyond just dog eat dog society, in an area of integrety.

Because you are concerned about this issue, we know you will do the right thing.


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## scottishbob (Feb 20, 2012)

family and good freinds get a discount, for clients charge your normal amount or you will be under valuing your work "always". its a hard circle to get out of.


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## renners (Apr 9, 2010)

Thanks for the responses guys, I find myself in this predicament because this job was really outside my comfort zone. Although I don't feel like I was slacking at any time during the renovations, I know myself that I'm not a fast tiler, I've done a few bits here and there, but wouldn't be as proficient as a pro - I also don't have a high end tile cutter that lends itself to cutting quickly. I probably spent half a day shaking my head and going 'what the f_ck have you gotten yourself into this time' as well.
With this in mind, I'm going to present the bill in full but take off an allowance that I feel is reasonable for the extra time it took to do the tiling. I will still be making a good bit out of it.
I think that is the fairest thing to do and will hopefully keep this client happy.


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## joeyinsouthaustin (Sep 22, 2012)

Don't give allowances without a complaint. You are guessing their level of satisfaction. Present the bill in full, and be ready to give an allowance if they complain.  Don't sell yourself short. And let the complaint come from the client, not the husband. Performance carpentry (with someone looking over your shoulder) is always a bit%?^


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## nailbanger2 (Oct 17, 2009)

Loren hit it on the head. Itemize the bill, and date the days that you put in 12-14 hrs. Don't lump your labor, so they can see, and remember those days when they saw you working at 6-7 PM.


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## EPJartisan (Nov 4, 2009)

renners: i have been here many times and no longer find myself in this situation. IT is all about how you portray yourself. after years of being confused, about two years ago I started this new concept….

I AM A COMMODITY.. not my work..not my art… ME.
With this in mind I work under the rule of the client gets to choose ONLY ONE: time, money, or quality.
They mess up and violate this rule by bugging me about 2 of them.. I walk away… or I charge them double.
I no longer care if someone threatens lawyers… I discussed this at length and it is true.. I can walk away.. no contract = I can legally walk away. Client violation of my "verbal contract" = I can still legally walk away.

So the issue here is simple. You did not set professional or legal boundaries for yourself and thus you gave of yourself too much, and obviously this job was not enough to make you feel fulfillment of a job well done. You blurred the lines of the professional and the personal.

But for this one… you suck it up!
Learn and never do it again… because this is many people's profession, not just yours and if you screw with the market.. you screw with ALL professionals. You have now established the most common American Vices: Greed and Impatience. These people will never respect you or anyone again. At this point you are not even their friend..

so do what is right.. suck it up, send them a bill with the full amount you think your work, time, and energy is worth… and then make a impossible to miss note about a huge discount! That way you avoid confrontation and lawyers, and you are telling them you (and all tradesmen like you) are indeed worth A LOT MORE!


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## EPJartisan (Nov 4, 2009)

And maybe include a discount for the PITA husband… as "consultation on worksite" as one hour per bugging about when will it be finished… and then write it off as a discount.

One client of mine was very much like this.. wanted me to do so much work. And then she bugged me everyday, and had new ideas.. and had grand dreams about more work for me. Then she got upset at my price, which I told her at the beginning I am not cheap.. and there are much cheaper ways for her.

In the end… I pushed myself to make her project just amazing… charged her $1200, but gave her a $700 friend discount. She paid.. was still unhappy about my price.. and she never called me back for any more woodworking. We are still friends, but she knows I am a professional, not some cheap guy who can be pushed around.


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## hobby1 (Feb 10, 2012)

Renners, I knew you would make the right decision,
you are a man with very good integrety.

You assesed the situation in good conscience, and are looking out for those who you do service for.

You show you care for your customers, when you have need of a service, in your life, God will provide a person with good integrety for you as well, 
"You reap what you sew." (That is a spiritual law, that always works)

You sewed fairness, you will reap fairness in your own situations.

Keep up the good work…


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

Renners, something you might consider, I charge different rates for different work. I might charge $60/hr for something at which I am proficient and $45/hr for something at which I am less proficient. Someone very proficient might complete the work in 6 hours @ $60/hr = $360; but it might take me 8 hours because I am slower but the client is still paying a fair price of $360.


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## renners (Apr 9, 2010)

All's well that ends well.

I met up with the guy today to give back the key and pick up the check, didn't go into any detail about hours, just gave the figure that I felt was fair (took a day off for the tiling because that was the most protracted part) and he was very grateful and paid up without batting an eyelid, I even got a tip.

I'm not looking at this as if I've lost out, it just seemed the right thing to do. Plus I've gained more of an insight and more experience in an area that I didn't know too much about before.


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## gfadvm (Jan 13, 2011)

We all knew you would do what's right. Don't lose any sleep wondering how much more you could have charged. Sounds like they were pleased and will speak well of you.


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## jumbojack (Mar 20, 2011)

Three grand plus material.


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## natenaaron (Jun 24, 2013)

I felt this way, and still feel this way when I give someone a large bill. I also give them the bill because I have bills to pay and a family to feed. My greater than $9000 property tax bill, and greater than $5000 dollar business insurance bill generally kicks the angel off my shoulder.

They wanted the work done. They did not HAVE to get the work done. Charge them a fair price for the quality work you have done.


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## bigblockyeti (Sep 9, 2013)

I guess I can learn from someone else's situation. If I find myself doing some heavily time constrained work for someone, all of the details from overtime to how many times I can be contacted regarding my progress will be addressed before the job is started. I know it can be very annoying, unproductive and in some cases downright dangerous being harassed by someone constantly checking in. Give them a slight discount for her sake, then take it back for him being a PITA. Be prepared to back up your charges with lots of details about the materials (sorry about your grinder, but that doesn't count) and labor for the job, including the overtime and unexpected surprises.


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## agallant (Jul 1, 2010)

Yeah, this is called scope creep and it is a PITA to manage. People will push and push, then push again when they get the bill that includes the expedited services or additional services. That is why it is so important to get things in writing. Now I do think there is a difference in getting things done in a time window. If it was going to be 100 hours over 3 weeks vs 2 weeks, well 100 hours is still 100 hours and look on the bright side you heave the 3rd week back to do what you want with it. If it was me I would charge for the hours worked and the materials including the messed up stuff you had to fix. You did the work, they need to pay you for it.


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## badlutz (Oct 12, 2013)

I like what Rick M suggested. There are a lot of us that do all kinds of work now days to stay alive. Sometimes we are not professionals at the jobs we take but are still capable of doing a professional job, it just takes longer than the professional usually. That doesn't mean you take a pro hourly pay and multiply it by your labor time. 
When I started I couldn't charge as much as some because I was still learning. It was kind of like paying for "college" in my world. Now years later I am faster and smarter so I can charge those high rates. I hear guys all the time wanting more than what I charge because it takes them twice as long to do the job. It is not the customers fault you are learning your skill, so why make them pay for it. The way I see it is karma is a b so treat people the way you would like to be treated and be proud to be an American craftsmen!


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## Shan (Aug 17, 2009)

I charge by the hour, and never less than what I make at my other Job. It can get spendy, but if they want me to do the custom work, it will cost them. Don't short change yourself.


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## Bapakleo (Jul 14, 2013)

With due deference to those who speak for God, or presume to know his/her intentions, do what you think is right. If you can't make this decision you would be far better off working for someone else who can. Not trying to be nasty, but this is the bottom line.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

I always hated time and material work. I gave a price and saved the T&M for the unforeseen.

Glad it worked out in the end.


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