# pockethole vs m&t



## irish1952 (Aug 11, 2013)

Im building a library table for my daughters home office .the plan calls for [email protected] joints but I want to use kreg pockethole screws and glue .will that be strong enough?.table will be 28wide by 54 long.red oak thanks for any help.


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## Picklehead (Feb 12, 2013)

I think we're gonna need to see the design/plan in order to know. Depends on width and placement of stretchers and aprons, probably. Expect (at best) some mild horror from the traditionalists! Good question.


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## levan (Mar 30, 2010)

I think it just boils down to, how long do you want it to last. Well done m&t should be good for 50+ years pocket screws ???


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## dusty2 (Jan 4, 2009)

I guess I must be one of those traditionalists. Yes, I think that pocket screws and glue would be strong enough for most but you are likely building a keepsake. Keepsakes deserve mortise and tenon.


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## CharlesA (Jun 24, 2013)

I agree that you need to supply a diagram or plans for the best answer. In many applications, pocket screws are very strong (such as securing an apron to a table top). But there are some joints where they don't do as well (such as securing a table leg directly to a table top).

I used to use pocket screws almost exclusively and find them quite helpful. But I've been learning more traditional joinery, and prefer it now when it makes the most sense. But pocket screws can make a lot of sense depending on the application.


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## dhazelton (Feb 11, 2012)

I would say that if the design allows for plenty of gluing surface - yes. Biscuits would allow for even more glue surface.


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## reedwood (Jan 27, 2011)

If you are talking about 3 or 4 - 1 1/4" pocket screws in a 54" long x 3" stretcher connecting to a 2 1/2" x 28" solid oak leg, I would tend to say no. Glue certainly won't hold in this sure to be tested butt joint without biscuits, dowels or the best choice, M&T.

There is another choice.

If you were to use a diagonal block or table bracket and a lag bolt system - standard table stuff, you could break it down for storage or moving day. Not full blown family heirloom quality in it's purist form but it seems like this is a practical application that doesn't call for it.

You could tighten it when needed, no chance of a M&T joint coming loose, easier to build. Only you can tell the difference.


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## bondogaposis (Dec 18, 2011)

I'd say the question comes down to whether you want to build an heirloom or not. Initially both will be strong enough. Over time though, say 50+ years the M&T table will still be among us. Whereas the pocket screw table will probably have failed by then. Wood moves, screws work loose, once racking occurs failure is not far behind.


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## CharlesA (Jun 24, 2013)

"no chance of a M&T joint coming loose"-I've seen M&T joints made by professional, very skilled woodworkers come loose over time.


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## Texcaster (Oct 26, 2013)

As Rooster Cogburn said to Lucky Ned, when Ned threatened kill the girl. " Do what you think is best Ned! "


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## irish1952 (Aug 11, 2013)

thanks for all the replys. the plans are from plans now .com craftsman library table.ive never made a m&t joint and i thought with the bottom stretchers in this plan it might work with pocketholes


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## moonie (Jun 18, 2010)

Well Ill go out on this one I can build anything with pocket hole joinery. I have over 22 projects on LJ's and 100 dresser's that are hitting 10 year's and all my customer's now where I live ?


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## bladeburner (Dec 12, 2009)

I've built some tables with pocket screws and they're holding up just fine. BTW, I've pulled apart some 100+ year old furniture that the glue had long since lost it's hold, but the pocket screws were still holding the parts together.

Use pocket screws without fear, for you can always go back with loose tenons if you want/need.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

I think it will depend on it's dimensions and it's use as to how well it will hold up.Many folks will opt for pocket hole joinery just because they want to have a fast build but if you truly want to be a builder of quality furniture you need to learn more types of joinery,It's really not that hard to make M&T just a little more time consuming, if you want a quick build Pocket holes may be for you.if you want to learn joinery and have a long lasting product give M&T a try.


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## wseand (Jan 27, 2010)

IF you have the time I would take it to learn M&T they are a lot of fun. Once I learned them I never looked back, they are not that hard.

Kregg is a nice system but there is a a lot of different ways to attach things. Kregg is just the latest gizmo.


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## jumbojack (Mar 20, 2011)

I am going to say M&T for one simple reason. You stated you have never done M&T. NOW is the time to learn. They are not that difficult. It is a skill set that you will value. That said after you complete the M&T go ahead and pocket screw them also. There 50+ years.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

If you want to stretch your skills, make a sample mortise and tenon
and see how you like doing it… It's not too terribly hard and
it's kind of interesting, though it can get tedious to do a whole
lot of them.

Pocket holes work fine in a great many situations.


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## reedwood (Jan 27, 2011)

nice tables, David. I agree, pocket screws are great, I use them almost exclusively. This table sounds like it's pretty big and heavy so that's why I was suggesting a beefier threaded bolt like most dining rm. tables.

I'm curious, do you use longer, heavier gauge screws on your tables? That would surely make a difference.

I guess the second question is, do you want to be able to break it down?

Removing 6 or 8 pocket screws per leg would not be worth it, but one 7/16" nut is easy.


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## Texcaster (Oct 26, 2013)

This is what reedwood was referring to for KD. 
http://www.direct-fittingsuk.com/large-table-leg-corner-bracebracket-set-1-10-sets-3439-p.asp

The only M&T I've seen fail have been hide glue, probably mixed wrong and poor joints . A well fit M&T joint with modern glue is hard to beat.


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## irish1952 (Aug 11, 2013)

thanks to everybody for comments.a benchtop mortiser is on my wish list but as i just got a grizzly bandsaw i will have to wait a bit.im going to go with pocket screws and hope for the best


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## GrandpaLen (Mar 6, 2012)

+ 1 for M&T.

Best Regards. - Grandpa Len.
Work Safely and have Fun.


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## nicholasrhall (Aug 19, 2012)

+1 for mortise and tenon

+1 for large corner-bracket if you won't do M&T.

If you are worried about the extra time involved for a mortise, buy a Mortise-Pal. They're only $200. You can do slip tennons in the same amount of time that it takes to do pocket screws, but the result will be dramatically stronger and last longer. For an extra 1 minute per joint you can add a "fox wedge". Doing M&T with slip tenons and "fox wedges" will give you a 100 year joint in about 120 seconds.

I love my mortise-pal. Google it if you've never tried one (same goes for a fox wedge).

A corner-angle brace referred to above with a 3/8" lag bolt is not as good as M&T, but it's way stronger than pocket-screws.


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## irish1952 (Aug 11, 2013)

nicholas,thanks for the heads up on the mortise-pal.i googled it and it looks liike a neat tool.this table may be made with m&t joints after all.thanks again to all for the help .


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## moonie (Jun 18, 2010)

Thanks reedwood but the legs on my table are two peice's of 2 1/2" by 3/4" buted to gather with scerws every 6" . But I check in from time to time to see how the table is doing after 7 year's the legs are striaght and she still plays cards every saterday nights with her friends.For the begainer's learn M&T joints frist before you jump in to pocketre-screws.Where can I get drill bits for my delta mortiser now of the big box store's cant order them for me. sorry about the spelling.


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