# NRA



## JollyGreen67 (Nov 1, 2010)

WOW, the NRA can be justly proud of the new murder rate at Parker.


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## rad457 (Jun 15, 2013)

Not really the forum for that comment? My guns all behave well, perhaps the person holding the gun may be responsible?


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

> [...] perhaps the person holding the gun may be responsible?
> - Andre


LOL - where have we heard that before 










Cheers,
Brad


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## OSU55 (Dec 14, 2012)

I have yet to see or hear of a gun killing anything. People killing other people, with knives, swords, clubs, vehicles, guns, yes Unfortunately it happens way too often, and many times by someone mentally ill or unstable. I guess all knives, swords, vehicles, etc need to be outlawed? And yes, my guns will be pried from my cold dead fingers if someone tries to take them away. I have no desire to live somewhere that only criminals and the govt have guns. Apparently some would, and I would be more than happy if they leave this country.


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## Ripper70 (Nov 30, 2015)

> WOW, the NRA can be justly proud of the new murder rate at Parker.
> 
> - Jimbo4


Why? Was Nikolas Cruz a member of the NRA?


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

Do you blame the car in a drunk driving murder?


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

> And yes, my guns will be pried from my cold dead fingers if someone tries to take them away.
> - OSU55


In reality they will come through your door while you're asleep, shoot your dog (if you have one) and take your guns. It won't be UN troops or liberals, it will be the police + feds and they will have a piece of paper from a doctor and/or judge declaring you mentally unfit or a domestic terrorist. They will take your guns and you will never be allowed to own one again. There won't be a trial, no romantic shootout; just you in your underwear, handcuffed and sitting in your favorite chair as the police carry your guns away. Bush Jr did that a number of times, along with many illegal property seizures.

BTW, I'm not anti-gun at all. I'm anti-mentally unstable people owning guns. The hardline attitude that every swinging duck, including people legally incompetent to manage their own finances, or drive a car, or who are undergoing counseling for antisocial personality disorders or are under watch because they may harm themselves; should be allowed to own guns is ridiculous and irresponsible.


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

NRA = *N*ot *R*esponsible for *A*nything!
If you are not part of the solution then you must be part of the problem!

The Japanese solution to safe gun ownership is a model of safe gun ownership.
In Japan anyone can have a gun if they follow the regulations.


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## JCamp (Nov 22, 2016)

Funny. I've owned guns for years and they never hav had any issue. I guess for weak minded people it's easier to blame the tool than the idiot using it.


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## corelz125 (Sep 23, 2015)

They blame table saws for people losing fingers not the person being careless. Now they want all saws to be a sawstop.


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## JollyGreen67 (Nov 1, 2010)

These are EXACTLY the kind of responses I expected from those weak minded who have absolutely no idea of why the 2nd amendment was brought about.


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

I can see it now.
The new FSLT gunstop! 
Flesh Sensing Laser Technology. Stops a bullet from being fired when sensing flesh in the site.


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## JCamp (Nov 22, 2016)

Jbay. Those won't work for us hunters. 
Also we should watch out for the nail guns.. they r semi automatic u know and literally anyone can buy them


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

When 21 first graders go shot (one with 20 bullet holes) and we did nothing, we as a nation decided that things like this are an acceptable loss for a bullet proof 2nd amendment. Sort of, second amendment collateral damage… so to speak.

A few months ago a legislator in my state put up a bill that would let anyone in a school carry a concealed weapon without question. That includes visitors. Go figure. crazy.


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

> Jbay. Those won't work for us hunters.
> Also we should watch out for the nail guns.. they r semi automatic u know and literally anyone can buy them
> 
> - JCamp


You hunt people? lol


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

If it's not a gun it's a deranged kid running a uhaul through a crowd of kids when school lets out. Let's ban uhauls.

Or planting homemade pipe bombs. Let's ban pipe.

The bleeding hearts never put the situations where people have justifiably defended themselves because they had a gun on the front page. Only stuff like this.

Whenever an armed person decided to break into your house you go ahead and talk them to death. Me? My only worry is cleaning up the mess and patching and painting the holes.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

NRA? LMAO. How about rampant psychotropic drug dispensing by the AMA? How about the deinstitutionalization of mental healthcare by the APA? Pretty much every incident is tied to these.

In this case however, there is an organization with real blood on its hands. It's a three letter acronym too.

The FBI.

In their own words:

Washington, D.C.
FBI National Press Office
(202) 324-3691

February 16, 2018
FBI Statement on the Shooting in Parkland, Florida
On January 5, 2018, a person close to Nikolas Cruz contacted the FBI's Public Access Line (PAL) tipline to report concerns about him. The caller provided information about Cruz's gun ownership, desire to kill people, erratic behavior, and disturbing social media posts, as well as the potential of him conducting a school shooting.

Under established protocols, the information provided by the caller should have been assessed as a potential threat to life. The information then should have been forwarded to the FBI Miami Field Office, where appropriate investigative steps would have been taken.

We have determined that these protocols were not followed for the information received by the PAL on January 5. The information was not provided to the Miami Field Office, and no further investigation was conducted at that time.

FBI Director Christopher Wray said:

"We are still investigating the facts. I am committed to getting to the bottom of what happened in this particular matter, as well as reviewing our processes for responding to information that we receive from the public. It's up to all Americans to be vigilant, and when members of the public contact us with concerns, we must act properly and quickly.

"We have spoken with victims and families, and deeply regret the additional pain this causes all those affected by this horrific tragedy. All of the men and women of the FBI are dedicated to keeping the American people safe, and are relentlessly committed to improving all that we do and how we do it."


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## rad457 (Jun 15, 2013)

> Jbay. Those won't work for us hunters.
> Also we should watch out for the nail guns.. they r semi automatic u know and literally anyone can buy them
> 
> - JCamp
> ...


You threaten or harm my family the answer is without a second thought! Most likely will not require a gun.


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## rad457 (Jun 15, 2013)

> If it's not a gun it's a deranged kid running a uhaul through a crowd of kids when school lets out. Let's ban uhauls.
> 
> Or planting homemade pipe bombs. Let's ban pipe.
> 
> ...


Amen! and sleep like a baby.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Funny. I've owned guns for years and they never hav had any issue. I guess for weak minded people it's easier to blame the tool than the idiot using it.
> 
> - JCamp


Take away the gun and it is far less likely for them to kill anyone.

The same day as the NRA approved Sandyhook shootings a Chinese man went nuts and attacked kids with a knife. He stabbed 20 kids and one senior. Most were stabbed in the head. No one died. So guns do in fact kill people. Take away the guns and the problem will decrease dramatically.


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## woodbutcherbynight (Oct 21, 2011)

> Jbay. Those won't work for us hunters.
> Also we should watch out for the nail guns.. they r semi automatic u know and literally anyone can buy them
> 
> - JCamp
> ...


I cannot confirm or deny I may, or may not have done so.


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## OSU55 (Dec 14, 2012)

> And yes, my guns will be pried from my cold dead fingers if someone tries to take them away.
> - OSU55
> 
> In reality they will come through your door while you re asleep, shoot your dog (if you have one) and take your guns. It won t be UN troops or liberals, it will be the police + feds and they will have a piece of paper from a doctor and/or judge declaring you mentally unfit or a domestic terrorist. They will take your guns and you will never be allowed to own one again. There won t be a trial, no romantic shootout; just you in your underwear, handcuffed and sitting in your favorite chair as the police carry your guns away. Bush Jr did that a number of times, along with many illegal property seizures.
> ...


So they will come in the night, on the same night, to all the millions of gun owners, even the unregistered ones, and it will end with a whimper? Think what ya want, but no, that aint happenin in my life time.

I have no issue with unstable people NOT being allowed to have a gun. There are cultural issues at the root of the mayhem, see Rich's post as well as some of the others. Framers of the constitutional kind got it right. Dont be a sheep and be led down the path to more govt control.


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

1st, I'm all for guns and wouldn't think twice about pulling the trigger if my family is threatened.

I had a discussion with a buddy about it yesterday and he made a good point.

There is nothing immediate that we can or will do that will stop killings, but there are things that can be done to lessen them.

The point he made was that if measures (whatever restrictions they make) were put in place, and it saves only one person (maybe your son or daughter) then is it worth it? 
It will be very hard to stop killings altogether, but at least there are ways to make the numbers go down.


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## Fresch (Feb 21, 2013)

> These are EXACTLY the kind of responses I expected from those weak minded who have absolutely no idea of why the 2nd amendment was brought about.
> 
> - Jimbo4


The idea is to have we the people armed as good or better than the government.
1st. Amendment = You are not a king!
2nd amendment = We told you, you are not a king!
Go read the Federalist and Anti-Federalist papers, it will explain it all to you.
Now I read the local cops were summoned 20 odd times and a physiological said he was no threat, we have the laws just need to stop being pc.
what law do you think will stop this,
The no killing law? Have it now.
The can't buy a gun if your a nut? Have it now.
The can't buy a gun if underage? Have it now.
If your going the musket, dead is dead you could have a cannon back then, look up weapons of the revaluation.
Ban guns like drugs are banned? How's that working.
Look up the gun/crime rates of the largest city all antigun democrats, how are those laws working; and why isn't anyone concerned with black on black crime?
NRA, has always been about safety, PAC money minute compared to what the union PAC money is to democrats.
When I grew up we were trained on the use of the tool (gun) had them in the back of the car in high school never a problem; what changed, no God, no parental control (schools took that), no parent, the feminizing of America, we all get a trophy, no bullies, you hurt my feelings, no responsibility for your actions,...,.


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## woodbutcherbynight (Oct 21, 2011)

The problem is that the actual problem is a systematic failure in various areas. No one thing like a gun bill, or extensive background checks is going to be the magic pill that changes things. We blame alot on mental health but we fail to ask why this happened. Could it be the breakdown of the family unit over the past 30-40 years? Maybe the trend toward no one fails everyone is a winner no struggles in life mindset? Maybe even the glorifying attitude the movies and TV we watch shows for those that shoot everything up and nothing happens to them? The list of failures can be miles long.

I certainly do not have the answers but I see the effects of what I mentioned have had on our society in my lifetime. Unchecked where does this take us?


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

Almost every one of the shooters is someone that society threw away, someone who didn't fit in anywhere, someone who wanted their name to be known. What does the media do when something like this happens, they plaster their picture and name everywhere. The next unstable person that wants to be famous thinks it's how they are going to become famous, that they will show everyone just like the ones before them did.

Modern society and the media are every bit as culpable as guns are, but if someone mentioned restricting the press from plastering killers pictures everywhere and repeating their names constantly they would scream at the top of their lungs.

Timothy McVeigh took out over 100 people with farm supplies.


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## bonesbr549 (Jan 1, 2010)

I heard he was a registered democrat. Maybe those should be banned.


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

> Timothy McVeigh took out over 100 people with farm supplies.
> 
> - patcollins


Ditto. Where there is a will. There is a way.

Even if you ban high cap mags (fine) and bump stocks (fine) and semi automatic rifles. You underestimate the ingenuity of someone bent on revenge.

The source of the problem isn't guns. It's mentally unstable people.


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## JCamp (Nov 22, 2016)

Well I'm pretty sure having a gun in a school is against the law
Shooting ppl is against the law 
The guy broke a dozen law so I don't see how more laws will stop anything. 
Also taking guns from law abiding ppl doesn't do nothing but allow for more easy victims (hence no one trying to shoot up a police office or gun show) 
Only thing I might consider as a good thing is if there was a one time mandatory gun safety test for anyone that would eventually wanna buy a gun 
Also if u really like the Japan way ur welcome to move. Also japan doesn't accept Muslims so if we adopt the gun control from them shouldn't we also adopt that?


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## Ripper70 (Nov 30, 2015)




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## msinc (Jan 8, 2017)

I cannot for the life of me understand how this country ever got so polarized….forget about Communist News Network and their fake news, forget about left wing liberal democrats that want to give the entire country away to the third world, forget about having to hate all conservative republicans {I guess because "they have all the money", but forget that they worked for it} even forget about Trump chirping or yelping or whatever he does constantly on his cell phone when he's supposed to be running the country…..how can anyone be so god forsaken, mother blasting stupid to believe that if all guns magically evaporated all crime would evaporate with them???? The great democrat pipe dream!!! If there was just one armed and willing citizen in that school there would have only been two shots fired and one person killed. The only answer to and the only way to stop a maniac psycho nutbar with a gun is a responsible person with another gun. I'd be happy to hear any suggestions anyone may have otherwise. Offer him a flower and sing Kum Baya aint gonna git libtards!!! People that claim to know the "real" reason for the second amendment…..this is it, the right of the people {ALL of us, to defend ourselves}shall not be infringed!


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

Ripper 70 for the win!

Molon Labe


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## Fresch (Feb 21, 2013)

I tell you what, let's start with all the bodyguards of the government, stars, and every person who is for no guns to give up theirs, now that should be easy could be done in a day yes? Why do we still protect old presidents, couldn't we just change the codes from 3 to say? 7?.
If you are going to kill isn't a gun free zone (Bill Clinton law schools) the best place to go? After all go to the Whitehouse they got guns, Congress they got guns, your elected officials they got guns, can always just rent a truck and plow over people, fly a plane into a building, chain a door and pour gasoline.
Killers gonna kill, our jobs shoot them when we can, because the cops only fill out paperwork after.
Name one time the gun laws saved someone?


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

My last words on this topic are:

We have the protected right to bear arms. As old as that right is it is still in effect and probably will stay that way until all who read this are no longer around.
We need controls in place to stop nuts from getting guns. If this means full background and mental stability test then so be it as I believe that any rational person who really wants a gun will not be upset by better controls and the potential of less tears for parents of school children.

We consider ourselves as a civilized country but if you look at the statistics we are still the "wild west".
The chart below from CBS NEWS.com










This chart does not include Switzerland which has a gun ownership rate of near *25%* and a gun violence rate of 0.21/100,000. These statistics are similar to Norway, Sweeden, Germany, Japan, and others!


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## diverlloyd (Apr 25, 2013)

Ripper I bet Gaddafi wished he had let the one guy have a gun instead of a bayonet at the end. No pun intended on "end"


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

IF you do take all the guns away…..who is left with guns? Cops? And…crooks. They don't even have to buy theirs, just steal them…..

In the weeks before the old Kenton ******************** Dog Trials, near Kenton OH…..break-ins would spike in the area….mainly looking for guns to steal. About half the items you could buy at the trials was "HOT". Well, except for that gal in the trailer in the Back Row area….

So,, yeah, give up all the guns…..crooks already have what they need, and know where to steal more. While you are at it, take away the cop's guns, and give a truncheon like the English use. Too many Fearless Fosdycks that should first….


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

> My last words on this topic are:
> * We have the protected right to bear arms. As old as that right is it is still in effect and probably will stay that way until all who read this are no longer around.
> * We need controls in place to stop nuts from getting guns. If this means full background and mental stability test then so be it as I believe that any rational person who really wants a gun will not be upset by better controls and the potential of less tears for parents of school children.
> 
> ...


What I find most interesting in this chart is only the Czech Republic has a non-firearm homicide rate higher than we do. Why do we have such a high non-firearm homicide rate?

The Scandinavian countries have such high suicide rates also, why do you suppose that is? I understand Asian countries because it is cultural and committing suicide is considered honorable.


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## Magnum (Feb 5, 2010)

> Not really the forum for that comment? My guns all behave well, perhaps the person holding the gun may be responsible?
> 
> - Andre


It's the ONLY Forum for that Question/Statement.

I live in Canada. No One carries Guns up here other than the Police and Fully Licensed Personnel who require it in the performance of their job. and naturally, Hunters.

If you get caught with an Unlicensed Gun, concealed or otherwise, you are going to JAIL!

In my 70 Years I have never seen Anyone carry a gun and have never seen a Police Officer Draw his weapon, let alone use it.

YES! I can still buy a gun (Pistol) "Under The Counter" for $300 to $500 if I want to Murder someone.

I believe that Marshall Law has been declared in a number of your States. (MAYBE NOT.) Your 1st. & 2nd. Amendment Rights just went down the Toilet!

It's like Rick said in Post 6. No More Rights and it's probably … "Off to a FEMA Camp"

OH! More People are killed annually in the USA by the use of "Other Than Guns Means" than Guns.

Rick


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## Jim Jakosh (Nov 24, 2009)

This is a people problem created by the media who sell sex and violence on TV, movies and video games and by do gooders that won't get rid of murderers.

Kids are like sponges and the are being taught how easy it is to kill by the media. We never had the problem in the 50's when TV was wholesome and sane!

You reap what you sow. Guns have always been there and have not been a problem until we taught violence in everything and to every age now. Let's identify the real problem and start solving it!


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

Honest to God people. Can't you read? You're doing the lemming thing blaming guns for this tragedy, but the real villains are the FBI. How clueless can you be?

I posted a link to their own admission that they dropped the ball. Go back to post #16 and read it for Christ sake. They were so busy wasting time chasing down dossiers that go nowhere that they missed a no-brainer.

First, Trump should fire all of their butts. Second, if I were a parent of one of these victims, I'd be lawyering up and making sure heads roll.

It's a disgusting end to the failure of what once was the premier law enforcement organization in the entire world. Today, the FBI is a partisan shell of what they once were. And children are dead. Pathetic.


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## rcs47 (Oct 31, 2009)

We need to change the way these things are covered. The killers names must not be spoken, just the names of the people hurt. We don't need to know why they did it, we don't need to give them a platform to become famous.

Maybe if someone sick starts to see these sick people are not getting their names said over and over again, but Mary C., John R., were hurt today in a…, it might change a mind.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> My last words on this topic are:
> 
> We have the protected right to bear arms. As old as that right is it is still in effect and probably will stay that way until all who read this are no longer around.
> We need controls in place to stop nuts from getting guns. If this means full background and mental stability test then so be it as I believe that any rational person who really wants a gun will not be upset by better controls and the potential of less tears for parents of school children.
> ...


Sweden, Denmark, and Norway are lower than the US, so don't see how the Scandinavian countries are so high. I reckon the long winters have a negative effect on some in Finland.

Japanese and South Koreans work really long hours, you may have seen stories of people working themselves to death over say 40 or 50+ hours straight. They also don't have a religious proscription against suicide like we do.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Honest to God people. Can t you read? You re doing the lemming thing blaming guns for this tragedy, but the real villains are the FBI. How clueless can you be?
> 
> I posted a link to their own admission that they dropped the ball. Go back to post #16 and read it for Christ sake. *They were so busy wasting time chasing down dossiers that go nowhere that they missed a no-brainer. *
> 
> ...


No, easy access to guns is the problem.

The FBI dropped the ball once, but I suspect you would be pitching a fit if he was arrested for what he might do.

That line about the dossiers is straight from a trump tweet, how sad for you.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> The FBI dropped the ball once, but I suspect you would be pitching a fit if he was arrested for what he might do.
> 
> - RobS888


Huh? First, you're a dope who only shows up for partisan BS. You're not a woodworker. Second, you suspect something about me? You know nothing about me, jerk. Go back to your flaccid cigarette that made you giggle like the child that you are.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

> ... perhaps the person holding the gun may be responsible?
> - Andre


The exact argument for restricting access to people who are mentally unstable. Well said.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Weeelllll, I think that just about killed this thread…..not even going to bother to pop any popcorn….


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## caboxmaker (May 3, 2017)

Is it welll, weeell or weeelll? Go get the popcorn…


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## caboxmaker (May 3, 2017)

Is it welll, weeell or weeelll? Help, my keyboard is repeating and out of control…


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## Ripper70 (Nov 30, 2015)

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." - *Thomas Jefferson*

"Forty years ago, when the resolution of enslaving America was formed in Great Britain, the British Parliament was advised…to disarm the people; that it was the best and most effectual way to enslave them" - *George Mason*

"And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press, or the right of conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms" - *Sam Adams*

"Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation.. (where) ..the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." - *James Madison*

"To preserve liberty it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them." - *Richard Henry Lee*

"The great object is, that every man be armed…. Every one who is able may have a gun." - *Patrick Henry*

"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed." - *Noah Webster*

"Little more can reasonably be aimed at with respect to the people at large than to have them properly armed and equipped." - *Alexander Hamilton*

"Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves. Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birth-right of an American. The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people." - *Tench Coxe*

"Arms like laws discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe…Horrid mischief would ensue were the good deprived of the use of them." - *Thomas Paine*

"Both Oligarch and Tyrant mistrust the people, and therefore deprive them of arms." - *Aristotle*

"The strength of the Constitution lies entirely in the determination of each citizen to defend it. Only if every single citizen feels duty bound to do his share in this defense are constitutional rights secure." - *Albert Einstein*

"The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of the republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally…enable the people to resist and triumph over them." -*Joseph Story*

"I cannot agree with those who think of the Bill of Rights as an 18th century straitjacket, unsuited for this age…The evils it guards against are not only old, they are with us now, they exist today." - *Hugo Black*


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## Fresch (Feb 21, 2013)

Thank you Ripper70, I see in my Sunday paper more people paid by our taxes were in the know about this kid, cutting himself on Snapchat.
Until the U.S. Is disarmed the plans of the "progressive, socialist, communist " New World order, the Bush, Clinton, Obama, Soros, democrats and republicans all working that way can't be realized.
1776 or 2018 people haven't changed that much.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> The FBI dropped the ball once, but I suspect you would be pitching a fit if he was arrested for what he might do.
> 
> - RobS888
> 
> ...


lol, that picture of the flaccid ash still makes me laugh. Wow! Really reaching for an inditement aren't you. I can't say anything because I found a picture funny? I do know enough about you based on your posts/name-calling in this thread

Do you support arresting people for what they might do with a gun?


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## JollyGreen67 (Nov 1, 2010)

Isn't it wonderful that most everyone here is NOT paying attention to the children of the world ?! These children are of the age now to vote in the next election, and the one after that. They are sick of the god NRA and his hooligans. Mark my words, in the next election things are going to change - whether the gun toting NRA fanatics like it or not.


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## Fresch (Feb 21, 2013)

> Isn t it wonderful that most everyone here is NOT paying attention to the children of the world ?! These children are of the age now to vote in the next election, and the one after that. They are sick of the god NRA and his hooligans. Mark my words, in the next election things are going to change - whether the gun toting NRA fanatics like it or not.
> 
> - Jimbo4


 That is because they are children and who cares what the world has to say about the U.S.?
What has the NRA done that caused any of the nuts to kill people? NRA money to government officials is a drop in the bucket compared to liberal/progressive money.
Do you know anything about guns? Why do we not teach Eddy Eagle (NRA) safety program in our schools, we teach every progressive dream. 
I saw on tv today that the children and young adults think they should not be able to get a gun at 18yrs old due to being irresponsible at that age; then driving, voting, should also be out of their reach until they can prove they are responsible.


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## JollyGreen67 (Nov 1, 2010)

Another irresponsible response to the NRA god.


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## Fresch (Feb 21, 2013)

What, no answer typical, what are your ideas on stopping nuts from harming others?


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Have the "others" be able to shot back…...


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Isn t it wonderful that most everyone here is NOT paying attention to the children of the world ?! These children are of the age now to vote in the next election, and the one after that. They are sick of the god NRA and his hooligans. Mark my words, in the next election things are going to change - whether the gun toting NRA fanatics like it or not.
> 
> - Jimbo4
> 
> ...


Um, constantly fight against any type of gun control. The GOP passed a law last year to make it easier for disturbed people to get guns.

They are completely responsible, to me for what happens.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Have the "others" be able to shot back…...
> 
> - bandit571


Seeing what one teenager did with a gun makes me think that this approach is beyond stupid.


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## Fresch (Feb 21, 2013)

> Isn t it wonderful that most everyone here is NOT paying attention to the children of the world ?! These children are of the age now to vote in the next election, and the one after that. They are sick of the god NRA and his hooligans. Mark my words, in the next election things are going to change - whether the gun toting NRA fanatics like it or not.
> 
> - Jimbo4
> 
> ...





> What new law would stop this, the authorities dropped the ball.
> GOP removed the new law that would impact ssi = old people, not crazy people like this kid.
> You are saying the killer is not the one responsible?
> Please explain your ideas to stop this from happening again.
> ...


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## GR8HUNTER (Jun 13, 2016)

ALL NEED GOD :<))


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## DanielP (Mar 21, 2013)

The 2nd Amendment and the reasoning behind it is one thing. But, anyone thinking that owning firearms is going to stop the government from it's ongoing and insidious advance on our liberties and freedom is just not thinking straight.

When they come you will use your firearms to defend your family, you say. Well, too late for that by about 20 years.

Look at what's going on with the MSM, the upper echelons of the FBI, and the FISA court. They had and probably still have more power than the executive and legislative branch together, and the CIA is right there with them. This is 3rd world country stuff. If they obstruct and stall till the mid terms, which they probably will, they are off the hook and back in complete control.

You have to understand when you have lost a battle, and the idea that owning guns is a deterrent to out of control government is complete folly. In fact, I think it helps them with the propaganda aspect of the war on your liberties.

We must adapt to win, forget any moral or righteous stances. They are used against you to the enemies benefit. Support Trump. He may well be our last hope for this once great country.

Dan


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## caboxmaker (May 3, 2017)

> ALL NEED GOD :<))
> 
> - GR8HUNTER


What's god going to do?


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## JollyGreen67 (Nov 1, 2010)

There is nothing an invisible, non-entity, non-existent, imaginary, god can do - only far sighted humans.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> *What new law would stop this, the authorities dropped the ball.
> GOP removed the new law that would impact ssi = old people, not crazy people like this kid.
> You are saying the killer is not the one responsible?
> Please explain your ideas to stop this from happening again.*
> ...


Applying for a license to own a gun and then having a background check that is more than a 72 hour facade might help.

I believe Canada does better with guns than we do… actually every Developed nation does better than we do.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> The 2nd Amendment and the reasoning behind it is one thing. But, anyone thinking that owning firearms is going to stop the government from it s ongoing and insidious advance on our liberties and freedom is just not thinking straight.
> 
> When they come you will use your firearms to defend your family, you say. Well, too late for that by about 20 years.
> 
> ...


Sickest post today. trump is part of the problem, so are the frightened gop. The blue wave is coming.


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

> Sickest post today. trump is part of the problem, so are the frightened gop. The blue wave is coming.
> 
> - RobS888


I doubt that, even in "landslide" elections the difference is only a few percentage points. I think we are currently stuck in a pendulum swing on presidential elections for the foreseeable future. Trump will most likely lose the election in 2020 to a democrat even more liberal than Obama, and then in either 4 or 8 years we will probably have a really big social conservative.

Someone like Romney or even Maryland's Hogan or a conservative Democrat can probably help break that cycle.


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

> There is nothing an invisible, non-entity, non-existent, imaginary, god can do - only far sighted humans.
> 
> - Jimbo4


Why do you feel the need to attack people's faith, that is just a ********************ty thing to do, no matter whose faith it is.


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## JollyGreen67 (Nov 1, 2010)

Faith is nothing but a ruse by the church to control the people.


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## Fresch (Feb 21, 2013)

RobS888, when you buy any gun you must fill out a federal form, you can lie of course, but the fact that almost every one of the mass shootings the government was on to them one way or an other.
By the way why isn't anyone concerned with the killing in the big cities every day, where they have all the laws you are looking for?


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

Some food for thought…....


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

> Faith is nothing but a ruse by the church to control the people.
> 
> - Jimbo4


I am not going to say I disagree with that, but what I am going to say is you are being a jerk to people who do believe in something.

I never understood the need for some who have no belief in something to belittle those that do.


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

> RobS888, when you buy any gun you must fill out a federal form, you can lie of course, but the fact that almost every one of the mass shootings the government was on to them one way or an other.
> By the way why isn t anyone concerned with the killing in the big cities every day, where they have all the laws you are looking for?
> 
> - Fresch


Most people don't really care about black people shooting other black people in places like Chicago, at least not enough for them to get worked up over it so that the media will cover it for more than an occasional short piece.

I don't think that people don't so much care as that they can't relate to it much.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> RobS888, when you buy any gun you must fill out a federal form, you can lie of course, but the fact that almost every one of the mass shootings the government was on to them one way or an other.
> By the way why isn t anyone concerned with the killing in the big cities every day, where they have all the laws you are looking for?
> 
> - Fresch


Rob's from Maryland no less. One of the strictest states regarding gun laws. Somehow, those laws don't work in Baltimore, which was ranked 26th in the world (yes, world) in 2016 with 318 murders. In 2017, they outdid themselves and upped that number to 343.

Yet he and others of his ilk continue to press for stricter gun laws.


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## rad457 (Jun 15, 2013)

> Faith is nothing but a ruse by the church to control the people.
> 
> - Jimbo4
> 
> ...


Well here in Canada they are called Liberals! There arguement to common logic, when you realize what you believe in is incorrect, slander the opposing person or group! Then raise tax's to pay for more social programs!


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## caboxmaker (May 3, 2017)

Firearms and god go together. The christians, jews and muslims are sure doing a lot of killing.


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## Ripper70 (Nov 30, 2015)

> Firearms and god go together. The christians, jews and muslims are sure doing a lot of killing.
> 
> - caboxmaker


Right. And a Godless Communist has never hurt a living thing.


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

Think about this.
We as a society do everything we can to limit the amount of sex on TV, 
but killing and death is spread everywhere with hardly no criticism. 
When you grow up with brutal, gory video games and killing on every channel youth doesn't have a chance to gain correct morals.


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## caboxmaker (May 3, 2017)

We all know killing is OK and sex is nasty.


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

> Think about this.
> We as a society do everything we can to limit the amount of sex on TV,
> but killing and death is spread everywhere with hardly no criticism.
> - jbay


I am 43 so I was a kid in the 80's and that was a load of crap for back then, now its an even bigger load of crap. There was all sorts of sex on TV then.


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

> Think about this.
> We as a society do everything we can to limit the amount of sex on TV,
> but killing and death is spread everywhere with hardly no criticism.
> - jbay
> ...


In the 80's there weren't video games like they're are today.
If you don't think that has any effect on kids growing up today then I think you are wrong.


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

> Think about this.
> We as a society do everything we can to limit the amount of sex on TV,
> but killing and death is spread everywhere with hardly no criticism.
> - jbay
> ...


Where did I mention video games? You claimed we do everything we can to keep sex off TV, which I pointed out was false.

There are also ratings on video games and in theory kids need a parent to purchase a game rated mature or even TV-14. I got carded for buying God of War about 10 years ago when I was 33.


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## JollyGreen67 (Nov 1, 2010)

PAT - Whomsoever wants to believe in something is their problem, not mine. They can believe in anything they want, and it takes a jerk face to call another the same. 43 years old, you got a lot to learn.


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

Good times.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

> I never understood the need for some who have no belief in something to belittle those that do.
> - patcollins


Freedom means people get to express their opinions, even if you don't like it. If someone brings up religion, no one is obligated to go along with it. People of different religions are not obligated to kowtow to your favorite religion. Religious people's feelings are not more important than non-religious people's feelings. Jimbo is not being a jerk anymore than you are. The whole point of freedom is that it works both ways. Someone is free to express their opinion and someone else is free to disagree.


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

> I never understood the need for some who have no belief in something to belittle those that do.
> - patcollins
> 
> Freedom means people get to express their opinions, even if you don t like it. If someone brings up religion, no one is obligated to go along with it. People of different religions are not obligated to kowtow to your favorite religion. Religious people s feelings are not more important than non-religious people s feelings. Jimbo is not being a jerk anymore than you are. The whole point of freedom is that it works both ways. Someone is free to express their opinion and someone else is free to disagree.
> ...


There is disagreeing and there is belittling. The two are different if you don't understand that then I feel sorry for you.


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

> PAT - Whomsoever wants to believe in something is their problem, not mine. They can believe in anything they want, and it takes a jerk face to call another the same. 43 years old, you got a lot to learn.
> 
> - Jimbo4


I have learned by now to not be a

```
@
```
@, you are way behind on that lesson.

People that belittle others for their faith almost make me wish i was a religious person.


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## caboxmaker (May 3, 2017)

Pat, I'm glad you got rid of that word…it was vulgar. You may need some anger management help.


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## Magnum (Feb 5, 2010)

I live in Canada. No One carries Guns up here other than the Police and Fully Licensed Personnel who require it in the performance of their job. and naturally, Hunters.

If you get caught with an Unlicensed Gun, concealed or otherwise, you are going to JAIL!

In my 70 Years I have never seen Anyone carry a gun and have never seen a Police Officer Draw his weapon, let alone use it.

YES! I can still buy a gun (Pistol) "Under The Counter" for $300 to $500 if I want to Murder someone.

I believe that Marshall Law has been declared in a number of your States. (MAYBE NOT.) Your 1st. & 2nd. Amendment Rights just went down the Toilet!

It s like Rick said in Post 6. No More Rights and it s probably … "Off to a FEMA Camp"

OH! More People are killed annually in the USA by the use of "Other Than Guns Means" than Guns.

Rick

- Rick
[/QUOTE]


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## JollyGreen67 (Nov 1, 2010)

Pat, you are the one that opened the door, so now you got to live with it - christain (?) that you are.


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

> Pat, you are the one that opened the door, so now you got to live with it - christain (?) that you are.
> 
> - Jimbo4


What door did I open? Not sure what you think I have to live with.


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## rad457 (Jun 15, 2013)

> Pat, you are the one that opened the door, so now you got to live with it - christain (?) that you are.
> 
> - Jimbo4


The award goes too??? Who started all this? To put all the Blame on the Legal gun owners?


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## JollyGreen67 (Nov 1, 2010)

Pat, we have had this non-religious argument before, and it ain't gonna get us anywhere now, just like it did previously, plus I am NOT belittling anyone for their beliefs. I am only saying what I do not believe in.


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## diverlloyd (Apr 25, 2013)

Beliefs are fake, government is fake,freedom is fake, money is fake, opinions are fake, news is fake, this thread is fake. See all the fake the only thing you can count on is everything that is fake was made up to persuade a person to believe the way another wants them to. IE fbi dropped ball so shooting happens to get people to think oh all guns should be outlawed so in the next election they can use that to get elected or to get the publics attention off of something else that is bad or screwed up. like I dont know our elected officails not doing their given job because they are a bunch of cry baby suck a tits that need something in return in order to pass something that would benefit society. As if free lifetime health care(oh it works for them but not for the public odd how that works) life time pay should i mention the raises in pay that they use to have to vote for but since it looked bad during elections that said person voted for more pay when they only showed up to work 4 times in 10 years. so now they voted it to be automatic so that if they dont want a raise then it needs to go to a vote. but hey whats it matter they are getting paid even if they dont do their job and the government shuts down.

The government outlawing anything only makes it valuable.


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

^ a man after my own heart


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> RobS888, when you buy any gun you must fill out a federal form, you can lie of course, but the fact that almost every one of the mass shootings the government was on to them one way or an other.
> By the way why isn t anyone concerned with the killing in the big cities every day, where they have all the laws you are looking for?
> 
> - Fresch


Are you suggesting that say one city in the US outlawing guns will/ should have an immediate effect? If you can go to the next state to buy guns, some will do so. It needs to be federal or at least all states agreeing to restrict them.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Some food for thought…....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nah, I'll just work to change the law.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> RobS888, when you buy any gun you must fill out a federal form, you can lie of course, but the fact that almost every one of the mass shootings the government was on to them one way or an other.
> By the way why isn t anyone concerned with the killing in the big cities every day, where they have all the laws you are looking for?
> 
> - Fresch
> ...


Stricter the better.


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## woodbutcherbynight (Oct 21, 2011)

You can take all the guns you want away, but history is very clear. Man is creative when it comes to mass destruction. McVeigh used common chemicals inside a truck and caused a mass casualty event, without a single shot fired. Guns are the tool currently being used, this is a symptom of the cancer, not the cause. I cannot stress enough that if we do not address society issues this will get worse until someone with time, knowledge and motivation gives us a display that will make the WTC look like firecracker. Imagine a 10,000 mass casualty event with 10-15,000 wounded.


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

+1 RobS888


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## caboxmaker (May 3, 2017)

The problem with enacting gun controls is how are you going to account for the millions and millions that are already out there? Anyone can get a gun…laws or no laws.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

We don't need gun control, we need people control. Forget trying to regulate guns and instead regulate who has access to guns, and hold gun owners accountable for crimes committed with their guns. And it isn't a problem that needs to be solved in a day but it's a problem that is getting worse because some people have been convinced that mentally ill people need to own guns. I am perfectly willing to accept the consequences and costs of freedom but we don't have to be stupid about it. I think it's past time we start thinking about our country being a better place for all citizens.



> There is disagreeing and there is belittling. The two are different if you don t understand that then I feel sorry for you.
> - patcollins


I understand quite well… belittling is what you are attempting with that comment.


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

> Some food for thought…....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*Just because some countries do not have a second amendment, doest mean you cannot own a gun!*

Based on the history of school shootings, the statistics indicate than guns should not be sold to white boys!


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## EEngineer (Jul 4, 2008)

Any hunter that needs a fully automatic weapon to make a kill is not much of a hunter.

Anyone fighting for the right of mentally disturbed people to own guns is mentally disturbed.

Carry on!


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## caboxmaker (May 3, 2017)

It would be interesting to know how many of our quarter million members:
1. Own a gun
2. Own an assault rifle
3. Are not mentally stable


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## rad457 (Jun 15, 2013)

1. Many.
2. Well my 50 cal. was a century ago
3. Depends on who you ask? Wife not withstanding!


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

Yeah you you had the FBI keeping track of everything and look where that got us.

What do you want. House to house searches for assault rifles and confiscations?

That'll go over well. Let's also rely on a bunch of bleeding hearts not to take a mile while they're at it. That's the other part of the problem not acknowledged.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Yeah you you had the FBI keeping track of everything and look where that got us.
> 
> What do you want. House to house searches for assault rifles and confiscations?
> 
> ...


In general, the gun control advocates are working for restrictions on sales. It isn't possible or even desired to remove all weapons in the US. Just make sure the people buying them don't pose a risk to others.

Allowing the ATF to digitize its database would be a really good start.

I don't understand how your right to a gun trumps my right to life.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> 1. Many.
> 2. Well my 50 cal. was a century ago
> 3. Depends on who you ask? Wife not withstanding!
> 
> - Andre


Why does Canada have far far less firearm deaths than the US?


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## OSU55 (Dec 14, 2012)

> I don't understand how your right to a gun trumps my right to life.
> 
> - RobS888


It doesnt until you threaten mine, and instead of dialing 911 and giving you time I'll take care of the situation.


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

I could think of more creative ways to take a life than just a gun.

If you don't like the second amendment move to Canada. Easy.


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## OleGrump (Jun 16, 2017)

As a LIFE MEMBER of NRA for over 30 years, NONE of my firearms have decided to suddenly jump up and shoot anyone. Of course, they are all LOCKED away securely as they are SUPPOSED to be, when not at the range.
As a hard-working TAX PAYING American, I'm REALLY "proud" to be financially supporting the FBI to sit on their butts, drinking coffee and COMPLETELY IGNORING dangerous individuals who public announce their intention to commit mass murder. The Federal Bureau of Indifference COULD have prevented this tragedy and FAILED to do so.
Can we get back to woodworking now…...???


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## Ripper70 (Nov 30, 2015)

> Why does Canada have far far less firearm deaths than the US?
> 
> - RobS888


Canada population = 32MM vs. U.S. population = 320MM

Gun violence isn't just a U.S. problem-and Canada isn't immune


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> I don't understand how your right to a gun trumps my right to life.
> 
> - RobS888
> 
> ...


Home defence I understand, but those kids in Florida weren't threatening the shooter. So how does his right to a gun trump the 17 lives.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> I could think of more creative ways to take a life than just a gun.
> 
> If you don't like the second amendment move to Canada. Easy.
> 
> - TheFridge


As mentioned, I'll work to change the law and eventually the amendment.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Why does Canada have far far less firearm deaths than the US?
> 
> - RobS888
> 
> ...


Ok, why does Canada have a far far lower murder rate than the US?


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## Ripper70 (Nov 30, 2015)

> Why does Canada have far far less firearm deaths than the US?
> 
> - RobS888
> 
> ...


Not sure what a "tune rate" means.

Did you even read the article?


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

.


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## Cricket (Jan 15, 2014)

In this community members are expected to treat each other with respect at all times.

There will always be disagreements and fusses between members. It is simply human nature. We truly encourage members to discuss and openly share their thoughts on a topic. It is how we all learn and life would be pretty boring if we all felt the same way.

That being said, this is not grade school. We don't gang up in little groups to take sides or encourage others to do the same.

If you were at a local get together and got into a disagreement with someone, I am guessing you would take it outside instead of ruining the party for everyone. I expect the same here.

If you are not able to discuss a topic respectfully then you need to remove yourself from the topic. If you are unable to discuss a topic with a specific member then you need to choose to ignore that member or take the discussion off the boards. If you are unable to do either of these things, I will help you to do so.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Why does Canada have far far less firearm deaths than the US?
> 
> - RobS888
> 
> ...


Sure did, did you get the impression that it is even close to here?

Sigh, the US has a gun death rate almost 5 times Canada. The gun murder rate is 6 times as high. Why so much lower?

Canada being beside the US and having a very porous border has guns flowing in.


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

> Why does Canada have far far less firearm deaths than the US?
> 
> - RobS888
> 
> ...


People are not packed together as much. Murder rates are always sky high in the cities compared to other places, typically the places where there are more people that believe that they should be able to own a gun.

What is the murder rate of Montana, Idaho, North Dakota, Maine and how does it compare to Canada?

The US is also 70% higher in the non-firearm homicide rate, that should say something in and of itself, since getting a gun here is so easy why isn't our non-firearm rate much lower?


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

I think a lot of the problem lies with the fact that the condition of being a boy is frowned upon in school. First off I don't believe there has ever been a female mass shooter. Second it always seems to be a kid that has been marginalized by society (ie his peers in school), it is never Johnny Football. Johnny Football has an outlet for his hormones and testosterone, he gets to hit something, throw something etc. Then you have the kids that don't have any interests or things that they strive for and they feel out of place, anger, etc.

Schools frown on being a boy unless it fits their preferred definition, such as being the football star, they frown on it. Trades are frowned on in public schools now, it's college or you don't matter at all.

I'm not sure I ever bought the violence on TV and video games excuse, my dad grew up watching westerns, I watch the Rifleman on AMC on Saturday mornings and there is a lot of shooting in that, no blood and gore but I think that makes it even worse as it takes away the consequences of shooting someone. The video games I had in the 80's also made violence seem to have no consequences, I could stab something with a sword and it didnt bleed it disappeared (legend of zelda btw).

I believe there will be such problems, guns or no, as long as society tends to throw away these people.


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

post deleted, meant to edit an above post instead of quote it.


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

> Any hunter that needs a fully automatic weapon to make a kill is not much of a hunter.
> 
> Anyone fighting for the right of mentally disturbed people to own guns is mentally disturbed.
> 
> ...


Which gun are you talking about? Can't say I have ever seen anyone argue that they need a fully automatic gun for hunting.


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

> Why does Canada have far far less firearm deaths than the US?
> 
> - RobS888


These are older stats but the increase should be about relevant.

https://politicalcalculations.blogspot.com/2011/03/us-vs-canada-comparing-apples-to-apples.html

https://politicalcalculations.blogspot.com/2011/03/us-vs-canada-homicide-edition.html

https://politicalcalculations.blogspot.com/2011/03/us-vs-canada-homicide-modi-operandi.html


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## Knockonit (Nov 5, 2017)

Little info on the florida shoot;

A "school policy" went bad.

School Shooting - The rest of the story
A senior ATF agent sent this and now you know the rest of the story. Gary

Here's Why Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Never Reported Nikolas Cruz to the Police
· EMAIL
Nikolas Cruz at his hearing
Nikolas Cruz was a known threat. Known by the administrators of the Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School. It's a clear case where a known dangerous student was not reported to the police. Why?
Because back in 2013, the Broward County School Board adopted a program where they don't relay information to police about troubled students.
NPR reported in Fla. School District Trying To Curb School-To-Prison Pipeline;
It's a move away from so-called "zero tolerance" policies that require schools to refer even minor misdemeanors to the police. Critics call it a "school to prison pipeline."
Under a new program adopted by the Broward County School District, non-violent misdemeanors - even those that involve alcohol, marijuana or drug paraphernalia - will now be handled by the schools instead of the police.
Cruz was banned from carrying a backpack at school after bullets were found in his backpack. Cruz was expelled from MSD last year after a fight with his ex-girlfriend's new boyfriend.
Non-violent misdemeanors? Even so, red flags were flying.
Again, the Broward County School Board has an official policy requiring that they don't tell the police about non-violent incidents with troubled youth.
"There were problems with him last year threatening students, and I guess he was asked to leave campus," Maths teacher Jim Gard told The Miami Herald.
Let's look at a law that might cover that.
784.011 Assault. -
(1) An "assault" is an intentional, unlawful threat by word or act to do violence to the person of another, coupled with an apparent ability to do so, and doing some act which creates a well-founded fear in such other person that such violence is imminent.
(2) Whoever commits an assault shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.
So another Liberal Feel Good program once again stepped in the way of the laws we have on the books being effective. Because last I checked, his actions of making threats to students and teachers constitutes assault.
It is possible that Nikolas Cruz would have been Baker Acted and received the needed medical attention he required before this all happened. But that wasn't the case and sadly, 17 people lost their lives.

Subject: Re: School Shooting - The rest of the story

This is exactly the position "most" schools take. The administrations resent law enforcement and truly consider resource officers in the school a necessary EVIL! After operating the resource (security) detail for the
then prestigious Shaker Heights High School in Ohio for 15 years, we began with one officer per day and, at the school's reluctant request increased it to 5 - five - officers per day when I became a lieutenant and 
turned it over to another officer. Our problems were drugs, theft, fights, knives, guns and gangs from other schools in the Cleveland Area. 
The officers who worked the detail were carefully selected and took interest in working with students just as with the community. My wife was particularly adept in this and received hundreds of tips from students,
as to who was doing what. The admin, however, resented filing charges against students and usually withheld information about crimes, preferring to handle the incidents within, often to the chagrin of a victim's 
parents. Sometimes we had were blamed for part of the problem when we had no idea it had occurred. When it comes to situations such as what happened in Florida school administrators often need only to look
in the mirror for part of the cause! It looks as if this school's policy didn't GO bad, but began that way!
GPJ 1*


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Why does Canada have far far less firearm deaths than the US?
> 
> - RobS888
> 
> ...


Toronto is the 4th largest city in North America, so I don't think it is lower density.

It is because of the difficulty in finding a gun. The US gun murder rate is 600% of Canada's, yet the non gun rate is only 70% higher than Canada's. to me that means with out easy accesss to guns, especially hand guns you have to get up close and do it by hand. That is a lot harder to do.


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

> Toronto is the 4th largest city in North America, so I don't think it is lower density.
> 
> It is because of the difficulty in finding a gun. The US gun murder rate is 600% of Canada's, yet the non gun rate is only 70% higher than Canada's. to me that means with out easy accesss to guns, especially hand guns you have to get up close and do it by hand. That is a lot harder to do.
> 
> - RobS888


That is sort of my point, given that we have access to guns I would think our non-firearm murder rate would be among the lowest.

We just want to kill people more it seems. I would imagine if all our guns went away our non-firearm murder rate wouild be much higher than 1.7x Canadas.

A friend of mine just recently came back from Australia and said people here are miserable compared to there, I have to wonder why.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Why does Canada have far far less firearm deaths than the US?
> 
> - RobS888
> 
> ...


Your third chart makes the same point I'm trying to make. Take away the hand guns and it is pretty hard to kill someone. Therefore the gun death rate being so high is because of easy access to guns. Guns kill people.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Toronto is the 4th largest city in North America, so I don't think it is lower density.
> 
> It is because of the difficulty in finding a gun. The US gun murder rate is 600% of Canada's, yet the non gun rate is only 70% higher than Canada's. to me that means with out easy accesss to guns, especially hand guns you have to get up close and do it by hand. That is a lot harder to do.
> 
> ...


If everyone in the US had a gun that might be the case. To me it is telling that withought a gun the rate drops so much.

I've worked in Australia many times, for months at a time, it is a great place and if it was closer we would all live there. (Joke, sort of).

P.S. we have a trump, that could make any country miserable.


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## Ripper70 (Nov 30, 2015)

> Guns kill people.
> 
> - RobS888


No matter how many times you say this, it will never be true. The old adage "Guns don't kill people, people do", is a truism that cannot be refuted.

A gun on a golden pedestal in the middle of the market square would sit there for a thousand millennia and never "kill" any people. It's not until someone picks it up and pulls the trigger that there's any chance that "guns kill people".


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## Knockonit (Nov 5, 2017)

> Guns kill people.
> 
> - RobS888
> 
> ...


Yep, absolutely the truth, man does evil dastardly things, death is the result of a lot of this evil, he will find a tool, or means to accomplish the goal, if even hands are used.

Gun control is not the whole issue, what is, is society taking a stand and not tolerating the violence in their nieghborhood and with in their communities, politicians only enlarge the issue, but wanting to make "feel good laws" that they have no intention of enforcing, enforce what we have, all laws, incluiding the immigration laws, one can't choose what to enforce or not to enforce, all should be to the fullest extend.

oh yeah, the lawyer thing, me thinks they have way too much sway with the courts.

this i a social problem, not a gun problem.
Rj


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Guns kill people.
> 
> - RobS888
> 
> ...


No matter how many times you make the point that a murder tool is inactive on its own, I still believe and have shown here that without the tool, murder becomes much harder.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Guns kill people.
> 
> - RobS888
> 
> ...


No it isn't the truth. The truth is that without guns murder goes down.


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

Ban handguns. Ban rifles. So pretty much ban guns.

And here's where I support the NRA and MY second amendment rights. I'm pretty sure DC aand Chicago among others have ready tried this.

Not to mention that apparently many of these mass murderers were known threats beforehand.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Ban handguns. Ban rifles. So pretty much ban guns.
> 
> And here's where I support the NRA and MY second amendment rights. I'm pretty sure DC aand Chicago among others have ready tried this.
> 
> ...


Hand guns for sure, but only rifles with high fire rates. Is a bolt action acceptable for hunting?

Was the Vegas shooter a known threat?


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## rad457 (Jun 15, 2013)

> 1. Many.
> 2. Well my 50 cal. was a century ago
> 3. Depends on who you ask? Wife not withstanding!
> 
> ...


More polite? Usually say sorry and walk away!
We do have a Goverment that is trying to make all guns illegal, still trying but lucky for use our Leader is a bi-polar moron who would rather smoke pot and take selfies!


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## Fresch (Feb 21, 2013)

> Ban handguns. Ban rifles. So pretty much ban guns.
> 
> And here's where I support the NRA and MY second amendment rights. I'm pretty sure DC aand Chicago among others have ready tried this.
> 
> ...


 You think a bolt action is slow? It was the main weapon of WWII.
Do you know that other rifles are also semi automatic yet look like a bolt action, or cock like a cowboy gun?
If it was a single shot who and how would this have been stopped? 
Why do a few here refuse to address the problems, it is the person doing the crime and the people of power looking the other way; case in point, in my city one of the first things dropped on a plea bargain is the gun charges, in N.Y. state no less.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> 1. Many.
> 2. Well my 50 cal. was a century ago
> 3. Depends on who you ask? Wife not withstanding!
> 
> ...


Trade ya,

I think the access to hand guns in emotional situations is less in Canada than the US.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Ban handguns. Ban rifles. So pretty much ban guns.
> 
> And here's where I support the NRA and MY second amendment rights. I'm pretty sure DC aand Chicago among others have ready tried this.
> 
> ...


I've fired both bolt action as a kid and semiautomatic in basic training. The bolt is slower and takes more of an effort. I believe it would make most mass shooters vulnerable. Yes I know an experienced shooter could probably shoot pretty fast with a bolt action. But the average person couldn't come close to the rate of a semi-automatic.

The M1 was a semi-automatic rifle.


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## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

Once you've gotten your standard firearms license in Canada, any of these semi-automatic rifles are easily obtainable.
Yes….even the scary looking black ones.
https://www.cabelas.ca/category/semi-automatic/1139

Once you have your "restricted" firearms license, any of these are easily obtainable as well.
https://www.cabelas.ca/category/semi-automatic/1104

Just thought I'd throw this out there as Canada has been brought into the conversation(I use the word loosely) several times.
There's no magic here, and there's no shortage of firearms.
The biggest difference is a more in depth, and a much longer screening process for a license(can be months) and a firearms training/safety course.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Once you ve gotten your standard firearms license in Canada, any of these semi-automatic rifles are easily obtainable.
> Yes….even the scary looking black ones.
> https://www.cabelas.ca/category/semi-automatic/1139
> 
> ...


I trained a gent in Canada last year, he was a competitive shooter, so it was pretty interesting talking about guns a few weeks after the Vegas shooting.

He said anyone can buy a gun in Canada. Under further conversation it became anyone could bu a gun that got a PAL. He said he had a such and such handgun that he can take to the range, but it has to be in his trunk in a lockbox and he isn't supposed to make any stops along the way or back.

He said he found it silly when he was younger, but now he appreciates that it is better, safer approach.


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## Ripper70 (Nov 30, 2015)




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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> - Ripper70


Cartoons are great when people died.

And again, I only advocate making NEW purchases harder, not confiscation.


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## Fresch (Feb 21, 2013)

Haha, Utube hot coil challenge this is the problem.
So the guy with the gun locked in the trunk, what is stopping him from not putting it in the trunk or shooting people?


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*Why is the TOOL that always gets the BLAME for all of the bad things that happen?!*

That Table Saw did not cut that finger off! *The person was to blame for it!*

That knife didn't get up and CUT that finger to the bone! *The person accidentally did it!!*

That car did NOT plow into lots of people and kill some of them! * The person driving is to blame; whether he's drunk or on drugs, or whatever!*

That gun did not jump up and KILL all of those people! *A person did it; whether mentally unstable, drunk, on drugs, mad at the world, or what!*

*Let's get back to Reality and solve the problems Properly!*

========================================

*The PERSON controlling the TOOL is to blame for this mania!!*

*In this last shooting in Florida, THE LAW WAS TO BLAME for this one!*

It was perfectly LEGAL for a 19 year old to buy an assault rifle; *the Lawmakers that wrote this law are to blame!*

It is illegal for a 19 year old to buy a Hand gun… BUT, CAN BUY an assault rifle… *makes no sense at all!!*

*Place the REAL BLAME where it belongs and NOT the TOOL used!*


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

When I say that things like kickback or tablesaw injuries are user error, people get angry.



> The old adage "Guns don t kill people, people do", is a truism that cannot be refuted.
> 
> - Ripper70


Which is why we need to control who has access. Not everyone is mentally fit for gun ownership, is also a truism. And we have to hold people accountable if someone else, like their kid, gets ahold of their guns and hurts someone. Freedom isn't freedom from responsibility.


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## OSU55 (Dec 14, 2012)

> I don't understand how your right to a gun trumps my right to life.
> 
> - RobS888
> It doesnt until you threaten mine, and instead of dialing 911 and giving you time I'll take care of the situation.
> ...


And if he had used a different weapon, knife, sword, car, pressure cooker - as other unstable people have to kill innocents, those items should be made illegal as well?

Its not the weapon thats the problem…


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

And for you Trump haters:


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## Fresch (Feb 21, 2013)

Joe, or anyone could you tell me what is an assault rifle / weapon? 
Rick true,
I personally know a lawyer who had his son die when his son and friend went into he fathers bedroom when he was out and knew the gun was there, the son pulled it out played with it handed it to his buddy who pulled the trigger and shot the son in the head killing him. The lawyer months later at work was going on about gun control, my mother who was his secretary and has raised 6 children with many, shotguns, rifles, and handguns in easy access , asked him if he ever sat down with his child and explained and showed his son about gun safety, answer… no.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

> Joe, or anyone could you tell me what is an assault rifle / weapon?
> Rick true,
> I personally know a lawyer who had his son die when his son and friend went into he fathers bedroom when he was out and knew the gun was there, the son pulled it out played with it handed it to his buddy who pulled the trigger and shot the son in the head killing him. The lawyer months later at work was going on about gun control, my mother who was his secretary and has raised 6 children with many, shotguns, rifles, and handguns in easy access , asked him if he ever sat down with his child and explained and showed his son about gun safety, answer… no.
> 
> - Fresch


There ARE a lot (x)policemen, (x)servicemen & women, and others that get a lot of enjoyment out of firing assault rifles… in safe places like Ranges. Why should they LOSE their rights just because sick wackos go beserk?

People that have guns, MUST be responsible gun owners!


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## OSU55 (Dec 14, 2012)

As far as comparing the US to Canada goes, what are the comparisons of gang and drug activity, population density, # of cities and population density, rate of adhd diagnosis and drug treatment in kids, single parent rate, unemployment rate, etc. Many cultural and demographic issues at play with these mass shootings.

Haven't researched this, but how do parents of these young men not know the kid is unstable? My recollection is that they did know. Thankfully I never worried about my kids doing something crazy like that, but then I paid close attention to them and knew what was going on in their skulls full of mush because I had to undo much of the indirect learning crap the liberal meatheads in schools put in there and replace it with proper subject matter.


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## Knockonit (Nov 5, 2017)

Its the same old century bullshiat, the need of the few outweights the needs of the many, just ask the immigrants during ww2, korea, nam, afghanistan, iraq, ect.

the misinformed folks, need to blame someone or something for their failure to control the situation, education, and responsible owner ship of anything, gun, car, knife, skillet, its all about respect of another persons opinion, and way of life, until it infringes on the rights of others that are given via the constitution, or amendments as approved. 
think what you want, but guns are here, and i hope they stay here till after i'm gone, then i will have no concern it will be my childrens and their childrens problem, but take a look at history in regard to gun grabs and control, it always led to the decimation of freedom, as the in the sense of how American citizens that invented it.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

> Ban handguns. Ban rifles. So pretty much ban guns.
> 
> And here's where I support the NRA and MY second amendment rights. I'm pretty sure DC aand Chicago among others have ready tried this.
> 
> ...


There was a fellow that climbed to the top of a tower in Texas, and used a bolt action, scoped rifle to shoot a lot of people….

Main thing, IF there is a will to kill, they will find a way…regardless of any laws.


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## Fresch (Feb 21, 2013)

> As far as comparing the US to Canada goes, what are the comparisons of gang and drug activity, population density, # of cities and population density, rate of adhd diagnosis and drug treatment in kids, single parent rate, unemployment rate, etc. Many cultural and demographic issues at play with these mass shootings.
> 
> Haven t researched this, but how do parents of these young men not know the kid is unstable? My recollection is that they did know. Thankfully I never worried about my kids doing something crazy like that, but then I paid close attention to them and knew what was going on in their skulls full of mush because I had to undo much of the indirect learning crap the liberal meatheads in schools put in there and replace it with proper subject matter.
> 
> - OSU55


 Bingo! +1 my youngest son did a term paper on the 2nd amendment got an F, I wrote on the back of it who,what,when,where,why,how, and asked her if I needed to come to her room to discuss it, it came back as a c+.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Mauser K98…Bolt action
British Enfields..bolt action
The main rifle of the Imperial Japanese Army was a bolt action
Springfield 1903…30-06 was bolt action. 
Russian nagant was bolt action…
Any that I missed?


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## Magnum (Feb 5, 2010)

> Why does Canada have far far less firearm deaths than the US?
> 
> - RobS888
> 
> ...


That's true to an extent. I believe the Main Reason is that We Don't Carry GUNS Up Here.

It's Illegal to do so unless you've past all of the necessary tests to carry a Gun and only if the gun is necessary in your line of work. Police Officers carry them naturally. I have NEVER seen a Police Officer draw his Gun let alone SHOOT IT!

I was Born & Raised in one of the "Not Nice" areas of Toronto. I saw a lot of Fights but there was never a Gun Involved. There ARE Other Weapons.

Hunters (Long Guns) is a different story. They still have to pass a series of tests. Your Rifle must also be Stored & Locked Up, separately from the Ammunition.

You are also subject to a "Personality" examination by the RCMP or the OPP. Any bad History. NO GUN for you.

I am NOT against Responsible Gun Ownership. I'm presently looking for a WW2, Lee Enfield Bolt Action Rifle, for Sport Shooting the "Old Fashioned Way". No Tripods or other supports.

Rick


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## Ripper70 (Nov 30, 2015)

Walk through Penn Station in NYC and you'll see fully geared, military personnel carrying M-16's that are there to protect the citizenry. Step into any bank and you'll find uniformed, armed guards protecting the money. Every major sporting event has armed personnel at every point of entry.

There are 13,506 school district in the U.S. We spend $13,600,000,000 on the NSLP (National School Lunch Program). Scrap the NSLP and divide the costs across all school districts. Each school district would receive $1,006,959 per year to station trained, armed guards to protect the schools and the people inside. No more "Gun Free Zones" that put our most precious commodities at risk.


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## caboxmaker (May 3, 2017)

Rich, thanks for the prostitute pic…I sent it to my Clinton loving sister.


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## Andybb (Sep 30, 2016)

Ohhhhh noooooo! Politics on the site I count on as a way to get a respite from all that.


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

I think its a sad state of affairs that parents and children alike are scared going to school these days. Put aside your 2nd amendment thoughts and put yourself in the shoes of the parents and children directly effected by these incidents. Something needs to be done and there is no cut and dry answer. For guns or against guns, i think we can all agree that innocent children should not die under these circumstances. When we let politics and money interfere with that nothing will ever get accomplished. Put aside the partisan talks and feelings and act like humans for effs sake. This aint about rooting for your favorite political team. Its about human decency and the right to live.


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## caboxmaker (May 3, 2017)

In a year or two the "children" can join the military, get killed and no one says anything.


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

Or they dont have have to join. There in lies the choice. Lets not move the goalposts here.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> I don't understand how your right to a gun trumps my right to life.
> 
> - RobS888
> It doesnt until you threaten mine, and instead of dialing 911 and giving you time I'll take care of the situation.
> ...


As mentioned before without a gun the death rate goes way down, check the attack in China where a deranged man stabbed 20 kids… no one died.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Haha, Utube hot coil challenge this is the problem.
> So the guy with the gun locked in the trunk, what is stopping him from not putting it in the trunk or shooting people?
> 
> - Fresch


If you are referring to the Canadian I mentioned? Nothing, because he has been vetted, it is to prevent loss of control as I understood it.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Ban handguns. Ban rifles. So pretty much ban guns.
> 
> And here's where I support the NRA and MY second amendment rights. I'm pretty sure DC aand Chicago among others have ready tried this.
> 
> ...


Less than in Fl, plus he was a trained sharpshooter.

As mentioned, the same day as sandyhook killings, a man in China went on a rampage with a knife and injured 22 kids.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Mauser K98…Bolt action
> British Enfields..bolt action
> The main rifle of the Imperial Japanese Army was a bolt action
> Springfield 1903…30-06 was bolt action.
> ...


What did the US use?

M1.

Edit:

Let's say that all soldiers except US used bolt action.

What would it have been like if they all had m1s or ar 15s?


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## Fresch (Feb 21, 2013)

Just happen to be watching the killing of 82 people ,23 were children, that was on national tv don't remember anyone getting upset about the government killing citizens; the Waco story.


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## Knockonit (Nov 5, 2017)

> Mauser K98…Bolt action
> British Enfields..bolt action
> The main rifle of the Imperial Japanese Army was a bolt action
> Springfield 1903…30-06 was bolt action.
> ...


Perhaps you should check your facts, the garand and semi auto and full auto other than the 1917 30 gal machine gun were used along with the 1903 bolt action springfield up till mid term of war, the army did not have semi or full auto long guns till they were made, oh some companies had some of the thompsons and a few others, but the vast us army was not armed till mid war with semi or full auto, and even then the bolts action units were sent to guerillas, ect behind lines.

in any event, guns do not kill, people with guns and other weapons kill. 
A clear and present understanding is chicago, new york, la, they have some of the strictess gun laws around, and they are the cities and areas that drive out huge death rate, supposedly based on gun violence. take them out of the equation and you will have nothing for comparison. 
I've been in countries where the citizens were unable to protect themselves, it is not pretty, nor is war, violence of any kind, 
But as mentioned, the politicians don't want to fix it, they want to put a bandaide on it, ignor the problem, doctor the symptons, 
just the way it is, its up to citizens to protect themselves, and their goods, try calling a cop on a busy nite, you'll be dead, beaten, robbed long before they can save you, not their job anyway, serve and protect is really not their motto. SOme hollywood guy coined it. Their motto is, I"m going home tonite, screw you and your problems.

not gonna solve the problem here, just a little agitation of frustrated folks.


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

me personally, I don't trust anything having to do with gun control in a liberals hands. Matter of fact. I don't trust either side really.

What's really funny is the gun control liberals that have armed guards and actually buy guns 

My families safety is more important to me than anyone else's opinion.

Raise money for a gun buyback. I'll be damned if a cent of my tax money pays for it. I'll keep mine.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

You know that the Bill of Rights is a liberal document and that the US is built on liberal principles.


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## Ripper70 (Nov 30, 2015)

> You know that the Bill of Rights is a liberal document and that the US is built on liberal principles.
> 
> - Rick_M


What you're referencing is really "classic liberalism" which is a far cry from today's "progressive liberalism". Polar opposites, really.


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

I speak of bleeding hearts that want us to acknowledge there are 27 different genders and want to build a bathroom for each one kind of liberals. Share your piece of the pie kinda people. Ban all guns kinda people.

But yes you are right.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Mauser K98…Bolt action
> British Enfields..bolt action
> The main rifle of the Imperial Japanese Army was a bolt action
> Springfield 1903…30-06 was bolt action.
> ...


Take it up with the internet then, I really don't care what was used in ww2.

Just think, a marine sharpshooter in 2 hours killed less than a wannabe teenager did in 5 minutes To me that proves how awesomely good at killling these guns are.

Guns are used to kill.

You guys point to Chicago, but ignore Canada, you point to DC, but ignore Australia. You don't make the points you think you are.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Just happen to be watching the killing of 82 people ,23 were children, that was on national tv don t remember anyone getting upset about the government killing citizens; the Waco story.
> 
> - Fresch


I remember a lot of concern about Waco…especially about them firing on feds. The was my first recollection of gun nuts.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

> Polar opposites, really.
> - Ripper70


No, they really are not. They are 2 different things, liberalism and progressivism. The United States was founded on liberal principles, the Founding Fathers were liberal, the Bill of Rights is a liberal document. Up until the 90's, both parties had liberal and conservative (who were mostly just less liberal), and both parties had progressive members. The so called Conservative movement of the last couple decades has been driven by significantly by foreign money and is the enemy of liberalism, progressivism, and democracy. They ran off the liberal Republicans which they called RINOs and formed a tenuous alliance with anarcho-capitalists.


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## Ripper70 (Nov 30, 2015)

Rick, you're conflating modern liberals and classical liberals. The Founding Fathers were not Liberals. There were Federalists. They believed in republican (little "r") government. As in of, relating to, or characteristic of a republic. Favoring a "republic" as the best form of government.

The Progressive Party was founded by Theodore Roosevelt and he, and his successor, Taft and then Woodrow Wilson were all Progressives. Progressives were not interested in altering or changing the U.S. Constitution. They wanted to subvert it. It was they that laid the groundwork for today's progressive liberals.

There may have been some "conservative" Democrats at one time (they were called Blue Dogs) back in the 90's but they're all gone now. They were never conservatives. They sought a middle ground between liberal and conservative ideals.

Conservatives, OTOH, simply believe that the Constitution is the defining document which enables our rights as Americans and delegates the authorities granted to the three branches of government and to the individual states. Reagan was really the first conservative Republican president.


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## unclearthur (Jul 4, 2013)

> Why does Canada have far far less firearm deaths than the US?
> 
> - RobS888
> 
> ...


As a Canadian, and a gun owner, I have to say this thread has been an interesting if somewhat sad read. The polarization of every debate in the U.S. always seems so extreme. Ideologies instead of pragmatic solutions and compromises.

As for the differences in murder rates between Canada and the U.S., obviously guns have something to do with it; your average (especially urban) person here has far less easy and immediate access to guns, though they can get them if they want to go through the hoops.

Though many Canadians have guns, what we don't have IMHO is the same level of general fear and paranoia as the U.S. I know lots of Canadians who own guns, but zero people who feel they need them for their own protection (unless your talking rural people and bears). Up here, that self-defense or 2nd amendment type stuff is just crazy talk.

Like most Canadians - even gun owners - I admire many things about the U.S., but see the gun culture as being just too extreme.


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## Andybb (Sep 30, 2016)

> Just happen to be watching the killing of 82 people ,23 were children, that was on national tv don t remember anyone getting upset about the government killing citizens; the Waco story.
> 
> - Fresch


As I remember, there were quite a few people that were very upset about that, regardless of their politics.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

> Rick, you re conflating
> - Ripper70


No I'm not. You are confusing politics and ideology, it's a common misconception. Politics and ideology are poorly taught in the US and often dumbed down to a simplistic left/right analogy. Liberalism is an ideology, a philosophy, an outlook toward life. Federalist, Republican, and Democrat are political parties. Well actually, Republicans are an offshoot of the Democratic party and weren't very different until the last few decades. Liberalism, Conservatism, and Progressivism predate this country though they have evolved. They are ways of looking at the world. Liberalism is inclusive, Conservatism is exclusive and regressive, Progressivism is working toward making life better for everyone. Liberalism and Progressivism are different but overlap because liberals are often progressive. Conservatism looks backward, opposes progress, and eschews personal responsibility seceding control to central authorities (the opposite of democracy).


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## OSU55 (Dec 14, 2012)

> Rick, you re conflating
> - Ripper70
> 
> No I m not. You are confusing politics and ideology, it s a common misconception. Politics and ideology are poorly taught in the US and often dumbed down to a simplistic left/right analogy. Liberalism is an ideology, a philosophy, an outlook toward life. Federalist, Republican, and Democrat are political parties. Well actually, Republicans are an offshoot of the Democratic party and weren t very different until the last few decades. Liberalism, Conservatism, and Progressivism predate this country though they have evolved. They are ways of looking at the world. Liberalism is inclusive, Conservatism is exclusive and regressive, Progressivism is working toward making life better for everyone. Liberalism and Progressivism are different but overlap because liberals are often progressive. Conservatism looks backward, opposes progress, and eschews personal responsibility seceding control to central authorities (the opposite of democracy).
> ...


Sorry Rick M, you've got your definitions all screwed up. Ripper is correct in his defintions and historical context based on the research I have done. You may be voting for the wrong candidate!


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

> Conservatism is exclusive and regressive… looks backward, opposes progress…
> 
> - Rick_M


That's not a definition of conservatism, but rather an incorrect perspective of it.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

There was a Star Wars quote out there….."from a certain point of view…."


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Rick, you re conflating modern liberals and classical liberals. The Founding Fathers were not Liberals. There were Federalists. They believed in republican (little "r") government. As in of, relating to, or characteristic of a republic. Favoring a "republic" as the best form of government.
> 
> The Progressive Party was founded by Theodore Roosevelt and he, and his successor, Taft and then Woodrow Wilson were all Progressives. Progressives were not interested in altering or changing the U.S. Constitution. They wanted to subvert it. It was they that laid the groundwork for today s progressive liberals.
> 
> ...


Republic means no monarchy. Nothing other than that. Iran is a republic, it isn't a form of government. UK is not a Republic, if they give up the monarchy they will be a republic. No other changes are needed.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Conservatism is exclusive and regressive… looks backward, opposes progress…
> 
> - RickM
> 
> ...


Thank you for your "perspective".


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## Ripper70 (Nov 30, 2015)

> Republic means no monarchy. Nothing other than that. Iran is a republic, it isn t a form of government. UK is not a Republic, if they give up the monarchy they will be a republic. No other changes are needed.
> 
> - RobS888


No. A republic is a state in which the people and their elected representatives hold supreme power. Not simply that there's "no monarchy".

Iran, though it calls itself the "Islamic Republic of Iran" is not a "republic". Iran is a Theocracy. Their politics are determined by Islamic ideology. The highest head of state is the Supreme Leader, not the "elected" President.

The U.K. is a Constitutional Monarchy.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Republic means no monarchy. Nothing other than that. Iran is a republic, it isn t a form of government. UK is not a Republic, if they give up the monarchy they will be a republic. No other changes are needed.
> 
> - RobS888
> 
> ...


What you are talking about is a representative democracy. If the US can have a definition that is totally different than any other country (as your comment would necessitate) then Iran can definitely be a republic. I have had this discussion on here before and no one can define the difference between a republic (US definition) and representative democracy. You seem to think a republic needs a president. It doesn't it just needs to not have a monarch.

The point about the UK, is if they gave up the monarchy they would instantly become a republic. It is a binary fact for countries. It is like you are thumping your chest saying you are a human, well duh.

People that like to wrap themselves in the constitution should stick with the definitions at the time:

QUOTATION:

"Well, Doctor, what have we got-a Republic or a Monarchy?"

Ben Franklin: "A Republic, if you can keep it."


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## Ripper70 (Nov 30, 2015)

> Republic means no monarchy. Nothing other than that. Iran is a republic, it isn t a form of government. UK is not a Republic, if they give up the monarchy they will be a republic. No other changes are needed.
> 
> - RobS888
> 
> ...


"The trouble with our Liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so." - Ronald Reagan


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Republic means no monarchy. Nothing other than that. Iran is a republic, it isn t a form of government. UK is not a Republic, if they give up the monarchy they will be a republic. No other changes are needed.
> 
> - RobS888
> 
> ...


That's it, that's your response?

Since you can't refute it, I'll take that as a concession.

So back to how much blood the NRA has on its hand?

I blame them for allowing this kid to have access to rifles that are so deadly they probably would have changed the course of WW2.


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## Ripper70 (Nov 30, 2015)

> That s it, that s your response?
> 
> Since you can t refute it, I ll take that as a concession.
> 
> ...


Not a concession. I just can't take any more time to give you the education that you never received. Educate yourself.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Hard to educate a troll…all you do is wind up feeding them….

Sign at the Zoo..

"Please, do not feed the trolls"

Methinks the horse has been beat too well, should have been buried long ago…..I'll just stick to doing woodwork…

"Well…...bye…."


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

Aaaand its right back to one political side vs. the other arguments. The exact reason our government cant get out of its own way and make any substantial progress on anything. This thread is a microcosm of that. Does it really matter which side of the aisle you're on if it was your child that was senselessly murdered?


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Aaaand its right back to one political side vs. the other arguments. The exact reason our government cant get out of its own way and make any substantial progress on anything. This thread is a microcosm of that. Does it really matter which side of the aisle you re on if it was your child that was senselessly murdered?
> 
> - chrisstef


Yes, if one side constantly fights to make that possible.


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

Yes. They need to do something.

No. We don't need a government enforced buyback of firearms like Australia.

No. I don't want to carry my pistol in my trunk separate from the mag. Kinda defeats the purpose.

You're never going to convince a bleeding heart otherwise. The NRA pushes just as hard as the bleeders but unfortunately for them the second amendment still stands and will for the foreseeable future.

So the blame goes around but basically. The NRA defends our rights. Which I'm perfectly fine with as opposed to having none. Which is a problem. What am I gonna do? Carry around a shotgun in my car? Yeah right.

There are many international airports. You are welcome to them if these other countries are so good.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> That s it, that s your response?
> 
> Since you can t refute it, I ll take that as a concession.
> 
> ...


Yeah sure, all of a sudden you are too busy to discuss the facts as they are.

It must hurt to see that things you believed your whole life were wrong.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Yes. They need to do something.
> 
> No. We don't need a government enforced buyback of firearms like Australia.
> 
> ...


Why is it all rights to any gun or no guns? I'm not anti gun. I'm anti hand gun and anti free access.

What are you guys afraid of?

I have the right to express my opinion and at one time you guys probably would have been for that right.


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## Ripper70 (Nov 30, 2015)

> Yeah sure, all of a sudden you are too busy to discuss the facts as they are.
> 
> It must hurt to see that things you believed your whole life were wrong.
> 
> - RobS888


Not "all of a sudden". I've been participating in this thread since it started three days ago. Rather than saying, "I can't take any more time", I suppose I should have said, "I'd rather not take any more time" to educate you.

I was about 40 years old when "it hurt to see that things I believed my whole life were wrong". But I've since learned where and how I went wrong. Hopefully, someday you will too.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

TL;DR but I get the gist from the last exchange lol. I could probably write the summary, not having read it. I am an NRA life member, firearms instructor, gun/ammo hoarder, reloader, surveillance having, bunker building, immigrant distrusting, hothead who generally votes Republican. I don't cheat, steal, abuse women, or support school shootings. I work, pay my taxes, and mind my own business. So, I'm pretty much the enemy of even mildly liberals.

But I do like me some fine woodworking, which is what this site is for. I make childrens' toys, so I figure I'm breaking about even on my social contribution lol.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> TL;DR but I get the gist from the last exchange lol. I could probably write the summary, not having read it. I am an NRA life member, firearms instructor, gun/ammo hoarder, reloader, surveillance having, bunker building, immigrant distrusting, hothead who generally votes Republican. *I don t cheat, steal, abuse women, or support school shootings. I work, pay my taxes, and mind my own business. So, I m pretty much the enemy of even mildly liberals.*
> 
> - Bertha


Why do the people with guns call people that disagree with them enemies? I don't see you as an enemy, just confused.

Seriously, what are you afraid of?


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Yeah sure, all of a sudden you are too busy to discuss the facts as they are.
> 
> It must hurt to see that things you believed your whole life were wrong.
> 
> ...


yup, just when you start to be shown to be wrong you'd rather not participate.

I'm 56, and though I could be wrong, you can't seem to show me that I am. I'm with the kids on this one.

The NRA and all its paying members are complicit in this and most massacres.

Wow, what more can one say? A trump supporter.


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## rad457 (Jun 15, 2013)

> TL;DR but I get the gist from the last exchange lol. I could probably write the summary, not having read it. I am an NRA life member, firearms instructor, gun/ammo hoarder, reloader, surveillance having, bunker building, immigrant distrusting, hothead who generally votes Republican. *I don t cheat, steal, abuse women, or support school shootings. I work, pay my taxes, and mind my own business. So, I m pretty much the enemy of even mildly liberals.*
> 
> - Bertha
> 
> ...


Got to side with Bertha, think you are the confused one, troll label seems correct? I still stand by my first comment regarding this thread!


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> TL;DR but I get the gist from the last exchange lol. I could probably write the summary, not having read it. I am an NRA life member, firearms instructor, gun/ammo hoarder, reloader, surveillance having, bunker building, immigrant distrusting, hothead who generally votes Republican. *I don t cheat, steal, abuse women, or support school shootings. I work, pay my taxes, and mind my own business. So, I m pretty much the enemy of even mildly liberals.*
> 
> - Bertha
> 
> ...


That's ok, I doubt you are a Canadian, your posts are opposite the other Canadians on this thread. They seem reasonable and explain the facts of how it works, you sound like a gun and bible hugger. Sorry, don't mean to be offensive, but the difference between you and the others is pretty dramatic.


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## Cricket (Jan 15, 2014)

This thread is not being closed because of the topic. It is posted in our Coffee Lounge which is specifically for off topic discussions. It is being closed because people have been unable to discuss this topic in a respectful manner.



> In this community members are expected to treat each other with respect at all times.
> 
> There will always be disagreements and fusses between members. It is simply human nature. We truly encourage members to discuss and openly share their thoughts on a topic. It is how we all learn and life would be pretty boring if we all felt the same way.
> 
> ...


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## moke (Oct 19, 2010)

I love the fact that when guns are banned in a country the gun violence goes down…....
Lets look at the only fact that matters…..the murder rate….guns, knives, screwdirvers…on and on.

For many years I was in LE and supervised the training of the officers. I had a trainer that was very astute. He gave a class on edged weapons….I have attend that class more times than I can count because the information changed and it was very interesting. The bottom line is this, When Australia and Great Britain banned and collected guns the murder rate actually WENT UP. Of course the GUN murder rate dropped….duh! All the charts and graphs that are shown, including this one shown in this thread from CBS news talks about gun violence not the all round murder rate.

The bottom line is two things:
Human Nature
Physics

If John wants to kill Joe and they have guns, in most cases, they will blaze at each other from across the room. Due to increase in pulse rate, hurried shooting etc, they have about a 20% chance of killing one or the other. However if they only have knives, they are going to be very close and have an 70% chance of stabbing one or the other in a vital area the could lead to an eventual death. It's Physics of proximity. Guns give you the opportunity to kill from a distance, edged weapons force you to be close where the odds increase.

Given our Human nature, we will never stop murder. In Great Britain the number one murder weapon is a knife, but the number two weapon is a screwdriver. Shall we ban screw drivers?

I will concess that an assault rifle does make mass murder a bit easier, but certainly a sword could do considerable damage also.

One of the road blocks as I see it is the HIPPA law. That directly impedes LE from checking a medical record of what could be a potential active shooter.

I also find the pro gun lobby to partially at fault…Iowa Law prevents the County Sheriff little wiggle room from issuing a weapons permit or permit to purchase because Iowa is a "Shall Issue" state. And the HIPPA law further impedes on the Sheriff. Few "crazy" people have ever actually been incarcerated for Mental Issues. I don't know the percentage of them but it has to be low.

Now to the folks that believe in gun rights, I am among you, and I have actually been shot at. BUT….one of my last calls I responded to before retiring was a 75 year old stubborn man that was in a Home Center, openly carrying a 1911, cocked and locked, and a woman was having a cow to the point she was screaming…...I get that she was as much at fault as he was, but IMO the gun laws are pendulum that swings back and forth over time….and he was NOT HELPING the cause. Yes it was legal….yes he was a dumb A$$...
Just my .02


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