# Why do we complain about Chinese furniture?



## JBoss (Jan 20, 2010)

First, I am as guilty as anyone of what I am about to say. My North American made tools are few and far between and I can count the number of North American power tools I own with no fingers. So this is not meant to blame anyone on here, just a question. 
I have noticed that we love to complain out Wal-Mart, IKEA, etc furniture, and hate it when people say, "Why spend the money on that when I can buy something similar at Wal-Mart for a 1/4 of the price you want. We like to talk about how its hand made, it made with good materials, basically much higher quality. Yet we made it with tools that are made over seas. We see the benefit of buying cheap stuff that gets the job done, but expect them not to. Why do we except more form the buyer of wooden products than the maker of them?
Any ideas?


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## JBoss (Jan 20, 2010)

I wasn't talking about rather or not we should buy anything form china (which I don't think we should) but as to why so many of us hold the wood product consumer to a higher level than the woodworker


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## North40 (Oct 17, 2007)

I think there is a difference … 
~ First, even if the tools were made in the US, very few would be handmade. They'd be cranked out by the hundereds by a machine. 
~ Second, even though the tools are probably not built to as high standards in China as they would be in the US, they are usually pretty functional - I have plenty of tools that are still going strong after several years of near daily use. On the other hand, a lot of cheap furniture is falling apart before the consumer gets it home.
~ Third, I expect my tools to last for years, and I will abandon a brand if their tools don't perform. However, consumers seem perfectly happy to replace their furniture every couple of years when the cheap stuff breaks.

Personally, I don't care if a customer chooses Wal-mart instead of buying from me, if they *choose* to deal with the poor quality in exchange for getting a low price. What bugs me is that so many people have been convinced to completely ignore quality comparisons and make a decision solely on price.


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## interpim (Dec 6, 2008)

I'll go ahead and admit that in my 8 yr old son's bedroom he has a walmart bookshelf, and an Ikea art desk. I would rather him tear that crap up instead of something I put a lot of work and expensive hardwood into. I can handle $15 for a cheap bookshelf… it will work until he is mature enough to not damage/abuse his furniture.


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## richgreer (Dec 25, 2009)

I'd like to buy tools made in the U.S., but what can we buy? Lie-Nielsen & Bridge City Tools are the only 2 companies that I know, for a fact, make their products here. Both have a limited product line, no power tools and are quite expensive. There are no moderately priced power tools made in the U.S..

I regret this but what can one do?


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## Knothead62 (Apr 17, 2010)

OK, go through out anything made in a foreign country and see what you have left. I have a friend who owns a furniture manufacturing business (third generation). He says he can buy furniture from China, pay shipping and duties cheaper than he can make it here in SE Tennessee, which at one time was a furniture center.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

I think Jboss has an interesting post and one that indeed exposes some of our own hypocricy

We needn't look hard to see lots of threads about how to price products, and what are good sales tactics etc. In these there is a lot of indignation about "crap from China" and particle board bookcases and Ikea.

Yet we see people praising the terrific value of the new lathe they just got from Harbor Freight.
Indeed today powermatic and delta are largely made in Taiwan. I see Jboss' question as not so much a 'Made in USA' issue, but that many frankly go the budget route and fill their shops with "crap".....and then complain about other people doing the same thing when buying crap furniture.


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## Bluepine38 (Dec 14, 2009)

I can see the price and quality issue, but I found my own solution. Most of my shop tools are old made in USA
tools that I have bought,eg Delta 6" jointer & Craftsman(King-Seeley) shaper @ $50.00 each and rebuilt in
my shop. My latest is an old Delta Compound Slide Rest #46-965 for my old Delta 12" lathe. It was in a big
plastic bin in pieces for free. In another week it will be setting on my lathe so I can do some fine lathe work.
At 71 my hands are not always steady after 6 hours of playing in the shop. This is not a solution for everyone,
nor is it a cure for the overall problem of manufacturers sending their factories overseas to save dollars and 
leaving the US with fewer jobs and a big trade deficit. With many unions gone wages are down and people
have to buy what they can afford, it is a vicious circle. Time for me to get of my soapbox and go play in the
shop.

AS ever, Gus the 71 yr young apprentice, trying to become a carpenters apprentice.


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## childress (Sep 14, 2008)

Jboss, I see your point exactly… I was actually thinking the same thing about myself recently. Not wanting to lower my standard of craftsmanship just so I could, in turn, lower the selling price - to get more sales. I told myself that I was making something "in the USA" with a much better product than what everybody else goes out and buys. I found myself even starting to tell the consumer that, hoping it would cause more of an appreciation…..Then I find myself in my shop looking and thinking about all the tools I use to make these "Made in USA" products. I try not to come from that point of view anymore and also try not to think about it….at all. Instead, I am thinking that I produce a supreme crafted product, that will outlive, tenfold, *anything* that is cheaply made…And believe me, there is a ********************load of cheap "made in the USA" things.


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## NathanAllen (Oct 16, 2009)

Its not the Walmart/Target/IKEA furniture that gets my blood boiling. What upsets me is the cheaply manufactured mass market Pottery Barn, Restoration Hardware, and other "premium" furniture sold at a premium price.


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## Jack_T (Feb 6, 2010)

I understand JBoss's point. If we are honest with ourselves we wouldn't be upset because we are really doing the same thing. We are trying to stretch our buying power. Would it be difficult and expensive to limit our tool purchases to "made in North America" (we should not exclude our brothers and sisters to the north), of course it would. But we could do it. We just wouldn't have as many fancy new tools in our shops and we all might have to work a little harder and maybe develop our hand tool skills a little more. It is a choice we make and we shouldn't be heard to complain when others make the same choice.

On a side note, PeterOxley, where its made is not determinative of the standard to which something is made. The products made in China are made to the standards specified by the manufacturer, to wit, the company whose brand name is on the product. They specify the materials, they specify and implement the quality control. If you buy a product from China and it is poorly made don't blame the chinese worker. Blame the *company* that made it and sold it. If they made it in North America or South America or anywhere else it would still be the same poorly made product because that is what the company wanted to make and sell.

To be clear, I do not think that I am better than anyone else and I am as guilty as everyone else in this hypocrisy of everyone else but me should buy "made in the U.S."


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Great points - reason I try to steer from the 'Made in USA' argument is that I understand (though my budget hasn't allowed) purchase of Festool products. So they guy with those green and black tools and a stack of 'Systainers' filled with dominoes wouldn't get a "Why not Porter Cable" spiel from me!

I also like Nathans point about the Pottery Barn stuff. I do use those catalogs as Target price points because while I don't even want to try to go head to head with Walmart and Ikea. I see that the 'Mass High End' market, I can and do compete with.
I can certainly make things better crafted than Pottery Barn, and Eddie Bauer Home and match their prices, except for dining chairs - - I can't make any money trying to make arts and crafts dining chairs at 90 bucks a piece.
Go to the Pottery Barn catalog and you find painted poplar and pine kids furniture - 1300 for a twin bed abd 300 dollar nightstands.
I can do that and not have to subsist on Raman Noodles.


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## crank49 (Apr 7, 2010)

Last power tool I was able to buy that was made in the USA was a Millwaukee Sawzall about 2 years ago. I looked at 9 different brands and that was the only one made here. I would have paid more to have USA on the label, but in fact it was not the most expensive.

I'll agree with NathanAllen above, the stuff companies farm out to China for manufacture then stick a high end price on is the stuff I hate the most.

It doesn't have to be this way either. I was in Spain and Belgium last spring and you go to stores over there and China made junk was really hard to find.


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## Ramonajim (Oct 25, 2010)

Mr. Oxley, I don't mean to pick on your personally, but I'm going to snag a quote from your post to illustrate my point…. a bit of background from the new guy, first:

I've been involved in manufacturing for 25+ years, including managing manufacturing facilities in the US, Mexico, and (remotely) in China. I've worked with Mexican, Chinese, Taiwanese, Malaysian, Israeli, Scottish, French, German, and British contract manufacturing facilities.

You made the comment "even though the tools are probably not built to as high standards in China as they would be in the US…"

I beg to differ. My experience has been that the factory, no matter where it is located or the nationality of the people on the factory line, is going to produce whatever the company that owns the design specifies AND accepts.

The drive to reduce costs, particularly in consumer goods, is what pushes tool and furniture companies (and and and and and most everybody else) to low cost regions for manufacturing. The same drive to reduce costs dictates designs that are cheaper to manufacture - some of this is implemented by smart, robust engineering; some of it by cutting corners on material, loosening tolerances on machined parts, etc.

Some of the products that I am currently having manufactured in China are what I consider to be precision devices - fiber optic microscopes with machined parts requiring +/- 0.0002 tolerances on a 6" dimension, for example. The Chinese machine shop making these probes is perfectly capable of running these all day long. My customers pay for this precision dearly - they need it, so they pay.

If I, as a consumer, keep telling the black and decker/craftsman/snap-ons of the world that loose handles and inconsistent performance and 1 year useful working life are acceptable traits in their products (they must be acceptable, because they keep selling) then they're going to keep designing products to that level of quality - and the factories that build the products are going to continue to build them to that level of quality.

Which is a really long winded way of saying - it ain't the Chinese factory, or the Chinese factory worker, or the Chinese government that gave birth to the piece of crap tool you just broke - it's the company (American or otherwise) that created the product design that gave birth to the piece of crap tool you just broke.


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## crank49 (Apr 7, 2010)

Well, I don't want to beat a dead horse here, but there is one other point about China that has not been mentioned; or if it has I missed it. 
Say a US company like Robins and Meyers Cranes and Hoists goes to China for manufacturing of a line of their hoists. They go to a big manufacturer over there and they get the hoists made for 1/10th the cost of doing it here. They are all happy and of course still selling those hoists at the same price they always did. That's the way it works; maximize shareholder profit. Then next year here comes their hoist with a different name on it and being sold at Harbor Freight for 1/2 price or less. Guess what, they can't do ******************** about it because those knock-off hoists are being manufactured in 40 little back yard shops all over the place and there is no legal way to stop it. They are not exact copies, they just look like it, but they're made from cheap material, with loose tolerances in facilities with no environmental controls, using slave labor, child labor, hazardous materials, anything goes..
Now, who is at fault here? The American company for going over there for cheap manufacturing? The folks that buy cheap stuff no matter how it was made? The Chinese government for ignoring patent and copyright laws? 
How can we do anything about it? All I know to do is buy American Made every chance I can afford it. I can't always afford it though. I wish there would be a tarriff on Chinese goods until they start honoring copyright and patent laws. That ain't gonna happen.
I recently bought a Craftsman table saw. Paid $410 for it. I have been an engineer in a foundry for nearly 40 years. I can tell you there is no way in hell we could cast and machine that saw table top to sell for $410, even if every thing else was free. Maintaining the polution controls and stupid government required red tape we have to wade through would cost more than the cast table top of that saw. And we're not even a union shop. If we were that would add another layer of costs.


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## Gregn (Mar 26, 2010)

*Why do we except more form the buyer of wooden products than the maker of them?*

Sticking to the point of your post and not the economics of products here. You ask a valid question which comes to comparison as to cheap vs. quality.
As a woodworker I don't expect the buyer to do anything, but then I am a hobbyist and not commercially motivated.
Woodworkers tend to be tool junkies that have a need to acquire different tools to perform different tasks. So we sacrifice quality for price to acquire what we want. When we find a tool that is used a lot, we tend to upgrade that cheap tool to a quality tool.
We now have a quality tool that will last for years after we're gone, to be passed down to other family members making that tool a heirloom tool if you will.
As with furniture consumers they also are furniture junkies at least some I know. I know people who change furniture almost as much as they change underwear. Some are young to middle aged and have a variety of reasons for the need to change or replace pieces of furniture. 
When they find something they like, they to will upgrade to quality, and have a piece that will become a heirloom to be passed down.
So We expect more from them as they are coming to us to get that quality piece, thats made just for them.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

Check it out kids.

Still plenty of things made here. Next time you need something, go here before you buy the imported junk.

http://www.stillmadeinusa.com/tools.html


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Some great points have been made here. My response to the original question is that everyone has their own strategy of getting the most bang for their buck. Cheap stuff will always have a broad appeal, but I think there will always be a market for quality goods as well. Keep in mind, however, that there is more than cheap vs. quality at play here…..

For those of you who make a living from woodworking in a small shop environment, you face a tremendous challenge. There is no way you can produce a one-of-a-kind dining room set as efficiently and cheaply as a factory that is set up to mass produce a thousand of them. Even if that factory used the best materials, and built to standards as exacting as your own, they could still undersell you because of the savings incurred through mass production.

What I'm trying to say is that the number one thing a woodworker has to offer is not quality alone, but quality along with the intangible sense of prestige the buyer will feel from owning something that was hand made by a craftsman. Don't lose sight of the psychology involved. Why are $200,000 Italian sports cars purchased by rich old man who will never drive them anywhere near their potential? Pride of ownership, of course. Why would someone pay me $500 for a hand-made humidor when he could get a very nice one at the cigar store for 1/2 of that? Same reason. In this case it has nothing to do with quality and everything to do with prestige.

Bottom line: If you're going to sell something, don't lose sight of what it is you are really selling.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

Right on Charlie


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## North40 (Oct 17, 2007)

A couple of people latched on to my comment about quality of tools might be lower if made in China. I think you may have missed the point entirely. Please allow me to clarify.

The OP was comparing Chinese/US tools to Chinese/US furniture. My point was that whether they are made in China or the US, the tools are of similar quality. In my experience, I've found that my (few) US made tools tend to be a little better, but my Chinese made tools are very close. However, in my experience, Chinese made furniture of the Wal-Mart variety (as suggested by the OP) is not a close comparison. Therefore, I don't think it is accurate to call woodworkers hypocrites for using Chinese tools (of comparable quality) while recommending agianst furniture (of much poorer quality). It's comparing apples to oranges.


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## surfin2 (Oct 24, 2009)

Why is it something made in China by an American Co. is considered made in U.S.A.

But something made in China & assembled in U.S.A. is considered foreign…

Owner of the company shouldn't have anything to do with it…

Where it's made should stay where it's made…


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## stevenhsieh (Jan 8, 2010)

"*There's no one to blame but yourself*"

China is capable of making high quality products, it's just that the US companies want it to make it cheaply as they can.


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## North40 (Oct 17, 2007)

Rick, your comment kind-of surprised me, so I went to my shop and looked at the boxes from a couple of recent tool purchases. USA companies - Ridgid and Porter-Cable - one box says "Made in China", one says "Made in Vietnam". I don't think the manufacturer or anyone else considers these to be made in the US just because that is where the parent company is headquartered.


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## stevenhsieh (Jan 8, 2010)

http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?s=c305ef767316a6de3ceba3c7d0e33e19&t=151211

http://www.scrippsnews.com/content/many-companies-moving-manufacturing-back-us


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## Lochlainn1066 (Oct 18, 2010)

I'm with BluePine38. Older American made tools and machines, once you fix the use and wear, are hands down much better than most modern manufactured tools, regardless of the place of origin. It's not a country vs. country argument. It's a result of consumerism and a "disposable" mentality. If you pay for quality, you get quality. There are good manufacturers everywhere, you just have to find them amongst the disposable and mis-engineered junk.

When you buy a Lie-Neilson or a Veritas or a vintage Stanley, you're buying a product that was made to last, not to be used up and disposed of. So long as a company is willing to stand behind it's products, like Grizzly or Honda, it matters less where it's made than how the company treats its products. That's the problem with Harbor Freight, separating the wheat from the chaff, so I'm always careful buying there.

Politically, I'd rather give money to a country that is free and democratic, but that option isn't always there.


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## Knothead62 (Apr 17, 2010)

I was given a floppy brim camoflauge hat by a fellow. The hat advertised the Tennessee National Guard. The hat was made in China! The US military uses a hangun made in Italy!


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## SteveMI (May 19, 2009)

Back to the original thread subject. I'm 60 and remember when people bought furniture for the long term. They expected to have for decades or until death. They expected to hand it down to a later generation. They may not have understood dovetail or mortice and tenon, but wanted a good quality wood grain finish. The types of styles were not as plentiful as today and the color of wood was more often the deciding factor.

Today, people in my age group are downsizing and the later generations aren't interested in the furniture style at all. I've scored some great wood by buying excellent 8 chair dining room sets with cabinets for next to nothing as nobody would even bid on it at the estate sale and the business handling the sale wanted to save the dumpster money. Furniture in demand today is [gasp] painted. People are looking for a decorating scheme that is intended to change in 4 years. The older furniture will be scrapped or donated (and then scrapped). Watch a couple of the cable design shows and just look at the furniture.

My point is that high workmanship furniture has a very much smaller market today. Stickley isn't going to go under. And I don't think the mass market is China intended, just that they are making what they want. The mass market is buying, just look at an IKEA or Wally parking lot on the weekend. Since the big box stores have to manufacture in volume, you can still compete on more unique and special size work.

It seemed I couldn't give away a quality wood grain table last year. After couple people asking me if I could paint them the light went on. I then went on to using ash and poplar. Painted them with milk paint and stayed busy. For a while they wanted black with the edges sanded to the bare wood for a shabby look, OK I can sand. Then they wanted earth tones, OK the sprayer doesn't know what color is in it. Nobody cared about m&t or dovetails, so pocket screws and router bits came into play. They are sturdy and I can make as much since the finishing time is so reduced and the materials are less. Are they "fine woodworking," no they are not, but they are the quality the market wants and I don't see anything "cheap" about them.

Cell phones made wall clocks obsolete. Computers and smart phones have made nice pen and pencil sets obsolete. How many have a rotary phone? How many have a cell phone? You need to move with the market.

Steve.


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## Lochlainn1066 (Oct 18, 2010)

Why are they not fine woodworking? Painted pieces and artificial antiquing are just a different skill set. Painting has a long and rich history in furniture.

Find the style that's selling at IKEA or Walmart and make it quality. I've bought plenty of pieces of cheap particleboard furniture that were perfectly designed but wouldn't stand up. There's no differing levels of quality… there's cheap particleboard crap and no upgrades.

Not everybody wants classic styles. But quality always has a market.


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## SteveMI (May 19, 2009)

Nate - "Why are they not fine woodworking? " My comment was a bit tounge in cheek, but much of the fine woodworking on this site is thought to be higher grade woods, M&T, hand cut dovetails and Tung oil.

Steve.


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## Lochlainn1066 (Oct 18, 2010)

Sure. That's classic fine woodworking. Always has been. We as woodworkers admire the skill in constructing good joinery.

I was just pointing out that there is plenty of furniture in classic styles and constructions (Windsor chairs, Shaker, Federal for example), where painting is an accepted finish.

There's a dichotomy between woodworking as an enthusiast and as a business. What sells isn't always what you want to be making. I have the same problem, the quality of the stuff I want to sell isn't really what the market wants. But isn't it like that for nearly everybody?


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## NaFianna (Feb 11, 2010)

Quoting Interpim above
**"'ll go ahead and admit that in my 8 yr old son's bedroom he has a walmart bookshelf, and an Ikea art desk. I would rather him tear that crap up instead of something I put a lot of work and expensive hardwood into. I can handle $15 for a cheap bookshelf… it will work until he is mature enough to not damage/abuse his furniture."*
-Dahlgren, VA US Navy*

I do understand how you feel. There are times I have reluctantly handed over things I have worked on knowing the amount of effort that went into them and feeling that they would not be appreciated. But I do think people can learn and maybe it starts with our kids. I think if they know and see the effort (and contribute) that goes into a project they will appreciate it more.
I think also that the time of mass producing cheaper and cheaper goods, so we can 'have more stuff' has taken its toll on the planet and cannot go on. It will come to a natural end and people will learn to appreciate skills and recources and effort once again. It starts with our kids. 
And I know this is easier said than done as I am finding out. I have a hand woven silk suit that I got in made Thailand 30 years ago (I'm all class) and offered it to my 17yr old for a school ball this weekend - but no - he would rather wear a cheap (expensive to hire) and nasty one from the dress hire place.


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## ChuckM (May 12, 2008)

Three points:

a) This is a global world: we may have shipped some of our jobs to Asia and elsewhere, but we have created jobs that produce things the rest of the world of buys from us. If we kept all the jobs (including some we don't want to keep or can't find people to do them), where did we find customers outside N.A. to pay for our goods or service? My American relative, as much as he doesn't enjoy saying, keeps saying if the economy in China falters, who is going to keep his country afloat? The question is not we should or should not buy from China, India, etc., the question is, as consumers, how we should keep the imported products safe and of good quality (the prices are low, cheap enough). The bridge system in San Francisco is being built in China with a saving of $400 million US but some 200 engineers and technicians from the US live and work there to ensure quality. We should bear in mind, for every dollar we pay on an imported product, 1/4 or even less of it goes to the manufacturers in Asia. Walmart, etc. keep the bulk of the dollar!

b) The last time I checked the tool reviews in WOOD, FW, AW, etc., the best value and the best quality power tools were mostly made in China and Taiwan! Flip thru some recent reviews and you'll the same finding. The question of quality DOESN'T lie with the manufacturers but the IMPORTERS who dictate the quality requirements, QC, and acceptance criteria. Importers don't have a gun poked at their heads when they put a product on the shelf. I ALWAYS blame the importers for a product's failure.

c) Most of my hand tools are Canada or US-made; power tools just the opposite. Into my just over ten years of woodworking, no one single power tool has failed regardless of their origins. Pay attention to your supplier/store that you buy your tools from, not where they are made. Lee Valley carries items from China, Taiwan, India, etc. but backs up all its products with one of the world's best customer service and returns policies. Period. The world is moving; buying old US-made machines may not be a safe alternative: can we buy an old TS with a riving knife, let alone a sawstop feature?

P.S. How many hobby woodworkers would still be around if every tool we need were made by LN and the like?


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## BentheViking (May 19, 2011)

While I understand the point being made, its not fair to lump IKEA into the same as Wal-Mart, their products are much high quality than Walmart and almost all of it is made in Europe. Just gotta defend my livelihood.


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