# Gibson Guitars Settles



## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

It's about time. Guessing this should be a lesson to everyone.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-19153588


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## ssnvet (Jan 10, 2012)

I've been following this suit for some time and I think this is disgusting…. a total abuse of power by the Feds and a perfect example of why our gub'ment is both brain dead and failing.

The way this idiotic law was written, Gibson could have purchased fret boards pre-cut from China and the Chinese could have used any source of Ebony they wanted… sustainable or not… because the law does not apply to the import of finished parts… only lumber.

But because Gibson chose to employ people in the USA and also satisfy their customers desire for guitars made with the best materials for the application, they're getting smacked with $300 K fine, $50 K extorsion fee for environmental protection and the loss of over $50 K in Ebony.

For no reason at all!!! because Gibson bought the wood from India and the wood had a pedigree as having come from sustainable forrestry practices… but they were lied to and the wood actually came from Madigascar.

Now the Feds will destroy the wood…. and Gibson will just buy finished fret boards from China, who are free to buy the lumber from Madigascar without restriction….

So the end result of this action to "protect the environment" ?

The Feds will destroy a valuable natural resource…
Repalcement wood will be hacked down in Madigascar and shipped to China
More American jobs will be shipped to China
More American workers put on the dole
And the brain dead Feds and environmentalist will all pat each other on the back for saving the world.

The Feds sent in armed agents to "raid" Gibson, like it was a drug bust…. (I'm suprised some trigger happy Fish and Wildlife agent didnt' shoot someone dead by accident as they played Rambo at a well respected business).

Gibson settled, because the Feds were going to bleed them dry with attorney fees…. as this has dragged on for years. The Feds don't care how much money they waste to prosecute this kind of case…. becasue they can always just borrow more…. (from China, of course).

The BBC article is short on hard facts and long on their slanted interpretation of what went down (note the loose use of the term "right wingers").... which is to be expected from the state funded mouthpiece of elitist statist.

There's an age old principal that will not be denied….

"the stupid shall be punished"

hang on for the ride… it's not going to be pleasant.


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## sarahss (Feb 23, 2011)

well said ssnvet


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## gumper (Jan 12, 2012)

350 grand, plus giving up stock, to avoid further issues with the gov. Cheaper than fighting it.


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

Interesting perspective ssnvet. Never really thought about it and thanks for the input.


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## madts (Dec 30, 2011)

ssnvet: I totally disagree with your comments. We as a whole are robbing our enviroment blind. If it were not for the EPA and the Fish and Wildlife, we would still have burning rivers and no animals left for all you bambi-blasters to hunt. The gun manufacturers would be out of business. The NRA would have to fold because of no members. No fish in the rivers to fly-cast for. I could go on and on.

So when Gibson needs to buy frets from china, all they have to do is ask for proof of where this thingies were made. It is not that hard.


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## Sawkerf (Dec 31, 2009)

madts-
I think that you missed the part about Gibson being told that they were buying sustainable ebony but were lied to. If, however, they buy finished frets from China - or anywhere else - they're home free since there's no sustainability regulations for finished parts.

Just for grins, why don't you read up on the history of wildlife conservation funded by the sale of hunting and fishing licenses. It's a practice that far predates the formation of the EPA.


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## CL810 (Mar 21, 2010)

The look of ebony may be changing!

This is a link to a Youtube video by Bob Taylor of Taylor Guitars.

In the video Bob Taylor explains what his company is doing about ebony. VERY interesting.

It was posted last fall so it may be old news to some.


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

Really enjoyed that video. ….thks for posting


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## krisrimes (Jun 17, 2011)

I don't quite understand why if they were lied to it somehow ended up as Gibson's fault. Madts, not to derail this thread, but most of the folks that I know that are bambi blasters and fish killers are very concerned with conservation and the environment as a whole. They are very aware that in order to continue to enjoy the things they do in the outdoors, they have to not only abide by the limits and quotas, but also preserve the habitat they live in.


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## Pono (Mar 10, 2012)

thats a good chunk of change could be worse.looks like the lacey act has finally put a high price tag on lumber theft. they just nailed the wrong guys they should be focues on the harvesters and others associated.


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

I was once a hunter with a fair arsenal of weapons but have since traded them in for a camera and only shoot through a lens. I think Bob Taylor said it clearly. We, as the worlds biggest consumers and more importantly, woodworkers, have an obligation to preserve as much of the worlds natural heritage as possible.


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## Tedstor (Mar 12, 2011)

I don't know much about the particulars of this case, but where is the US EPAs dog in this race?? The wood was imported.I didn't realize EPA's charter extended beyond US Borders. I would have thought that Customs had jurisdiction.


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## Sawkerf (Dec 31, 2009)

krisrimes-
Gibson was in possession of unsustainable material. They probably could have beaten the charges, but at what cost? Like someone else said, the government doesn't do a cost/benefit analysis - they just keep throwing money. No business can keep up with them for long.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

Gibson broke the law, admitted to it, were warned about it two years ago and continued breaking the law until the government stepped in.


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

*So when Gibson needs to buy frets from china, all they have to do is ask for proof of where this thingies were made. It is not that hard.*

It's a well known fact China will lie about anything as far as where it came from. Try baby formula and drywall for a start.


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## dhazelton (Feb 11, 2012)

Reminds me of all the regulations to recycle electronics - they end up getting sold to Chinese companies who pay villagers to just burn things over open fires to get the metals. Everything else goes up as toxic smoke or into the water supply. Our govt. is messed up.


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## guitchess (Mar 31, 2008)

Typical government skewed logic. Punish a company for buying from a country that doesn't have a problem with harvesting the wood is like winning in Vegas then being arrested in your home state that views gambling as illegal. We as a country have no right to force our moral views on anyone else. We are down on China because of their "unfair" human rights standards, but our own country was just as bad, if not worse, a hundred years ago. We have no right to hold the rest of the world to our current standard when we went through the same phase in our growth.

What if the rest of the world refused to sell us oil because we are harming the environment? We consume 25% of the world's oil use by ourselves. Which means if we hold ourselves to the same measurement that the government is holding Gibson, we would have larger issues than a truck load of ebony.

Then watch Ax Men on the history channel. You will see glimpses of old growth, or at least natural, balanced forests that are clear cut for nothing more than dimensional lumber. I've been a carpenter for 22 years, and am well aware that I have profited from this action. It does make me cringe because I love outdoor recreation. But it sounds like I, and every other carpenter, should be fined. We bought lumber from a company/government that is harming the earth.

If the government will actually destroy this wood, then the gates should be stormed and they should be b-slapped. At least auction it off to make money to fight the evil earth destroyers. Or give it away to non-profit furniture/cabinet makers like the ones at LumberJocks


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## guitchess (Mar 31, 2008)

Plus the government would have made more of a difference, and probably done it cheaper with a pr campaign that let the public know that Gibson was using unsustainable lumber. As usual, the government taking the people out of the loop.


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## lysdexic (Mar 21, 2011)

I am sad for my children.

Soon the G'ment will be in control of your healthcare. It is sad but inevitable.


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

Say what you may, but please watch the video from Bob Taylor of Taylor guitars.

An old wise native american said "What ever befalls the earth, befalls the children of the earth"


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## JAGWAH (Dec 15, 2009)

Again as said before you need to watch Taylor's video.
A showing of courage and responcibility.

I agree it's dissapointing the regulations out there. But they're there for a reason. Men do not act responcibly unless forced by law or regulation. If everyone had the ecological concerns Taylor does we wouldn't have created a shortage thus requiring the regulations.

As to the burning, it is a sad thing. But just like ivory no one should benefit from this theft. I would have hoped the ebony would be archived somewher for future generations to see. Like the last of a species found killed I think they would have stuffed the sucker for posterity.


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## ssnvet (Jan 10, 2012)

My comments and concerns have nothing to do with protection of the environment…. I'm all for that…

Due Process and the Rule of Law have been tossed out the window by several Federal agencies in recent years….

Here's how it works…

1. The Federal agency "suspects" wrong doing.
2. The Federal agency gets a warrant and raids the suspects business…. they can sieze computers, they can freeze bank accounts, they can sieze assets, they can revoke permits and licenses and then walk away…. all of this is done with NO CHARGES BEING FILED AND NO PROSECUTION AND NO CONVICTION.

Whatever happened to PRESUMED INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY ???

If you had been following the Gibson case, you would know that *over a year after the FWS raided them and siezed their property… no charges had been filed.*

And when Gibons attorneys made formal inquiries, they were stone walled. No charges, no explanation…no nothing. Gibson went to the FWA and said… "tell us what we did wrong and we'll fix it" and they got nothing! No explanation of what they supposedly did wrong… nothing. They purchased the wood from sources in India and had documentation that it was harvested from sustainable sources…. THEY MADE EVERY EFFORT TO COMPLY WITH THE LAW!!!!!

The only legal actions that happened after the raid was Gibson attempting to get an explanation as to what they had allegedly done wrong…. and trying to get their property returned to them.

BUT…. if you are not charged with a crime…. you never get to defend yourself in a court of law!

What did Gibson actually do that was illegal? Fill out a form incorrectly?

The threat of legal action hanging over your head does not bode well for running a business. Your reputation can suffer irreparable damaged, your line of credit can get pulled, suppliers may not be willing to extend you normal credit terms….

In short…. they can drive you under very easilly, just by telling you "talk to the hand".

Read up on the interesting case of Cavalry Arms. The were raided by the ATF and hundreds of thousands of dollars in assets were seized. Dozens of legally owned customer rifles that were in their shop for custom service or repair were also seized. None of this was ever returned. These people had their property stolen by the ATF. Two years later, the ATF had not made any charges against Cavalry… and they hadn't even pulled Calvary Arms Federal Firearms License… why? Because theirs an appeal process set up and Calvary could then have gone before a judge.

Rather, the ATF just sitting on their hands waiting for them to go under.

But what they didn't expect was that loyal customers started and internet buzz and set up a legal defense fund for Calvary and started placing orders and buying everything they still had on the shelf. They even went back into manufacturing product, which sold like hot cakes. They were able to generate over a $100K to fund their legal defense.

So eventually the ATF charged the owner with some idiotic technical violation (they had moved a molding machine into a larger facility and had failed to add that address to their license) and pulled his FFL.

Or then again, read up on the Sackett vs. EPA case, in which an Idaho family, persecuted by the Federal EPA for building on their own property (after receiving permits from the town and a ruling by the state EPA saying their property was NOT a wetland)... took the EPA to court …all the way to the Supreme Court of the Untited States…. AND WON… only to have the EPA continue to issue daily admin. fines against them.

THERE IS NO ACCOUNTABIILITY IN FEDERAL AGENCIES AND THEY NO IT!!!

Just look at the parties and multi-million dollar bonuses that were just exposed at the GSA.

Reagan said it best "governmetn IS the problem"


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## ssnvet (Jan 10, 2012)

if it was theft… why wasn't Gibson charged??

submitting to government extortion is not admission of theft.

it's a desperate act of survival…

People need to stop believing everything the t.v. news tells them, and reed up on these cases and then wake up and realize how common this kind of abuse of power is.


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## ssnvet (Jan 10, 2012)

I'll give the ranting a break… but want to make sure that folks understand that I am NOT against responsible and affective environmental regulation…

My understanding of the Gibson case, which I've read at least a dozen articles on, is that they were never charged with a violation and were never given their day in court.

They "settled" with the FWS in a "letter of understanding" and agreed to pay the extorsion money, so they could go back to running their business.

We need to get Tennesee in here… he's in the business and undoubtedly knows more about this than any of us who are limited to what the news spoon feeds us.


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## lysdexic (Mar 21, 2011)

My comment is concerning the over reach of government -not conservation.

I am a passionate conservationist but 16 years in the military makes one quite cynical concerning the federal governments abilities.


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## ssnvet (Jan 10, 2012)

Oh come on lysdexic,

there's no politics in the armed forces….. or is there? :^)


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## lysdexic (Mar 21, 2011)

That's why it is 16 years and not 20. I couldn't stand it. I'd go on another 6 month deployment in a heart beat if I didn't have to serve out the other 3 1/2 years comittment.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Thanks for the link to Bob Taylor's video. He shows a good combination of business sense and common sense.

And speaking of Taylor guitars, watching that video prompted me to watch this one detailing the guitar building process at their California factory from start to finish. Quite interesting.


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## Doss (Mar 14, 2012)

Sounds like they got what they deserved. From what I've read, I don't think the government overstepped at all.

Man may conserve by himself, but some businesses don't think about anything but their bottom line… and that's the problem.


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## Tennessee (Jul 8, 2011)

I live two hours South of the Gibson plant, so we luthiers down here have followed this case carefully. We also followed with interest the first raid on Gibson, which revolved around rosewood. Many musicians thought they would have to give up their vintage instruments which contained Brazilian Rosewood, since it was on the endangered list. Flying with those instruments became dicey, since they did not want them taken away by TSA screeners. Luckily, a quick provision was introduced into Congress allowing previous ownership.

Make no mistake about it, Henry Juszkiewicz is a tough guy, and Gibson has regularly made the list of the worst 100 places to work in the United States for a number of years. But when Henry and his fellows bought up Gibson, they were almost dead, as was Epiphone, so in that sense, they saved a lot of jobs.

As far as the wood, they did make some clerical errors that probably should have been caught, but no one down here close to the proximity of the factory really believes that Gibson did anything different than the other four majors, Fender, Martin, Taylor, or Paul Reed Smith. They all import the same woods, in the same manner, and I would bet that they are all about as suspect to these mistakes as any other.

In addition, the Lacey Act provision that it will acknowledge other countries laws is a vague one, i.e. the provision that if the ebony fretboards would have been finished it would have been OK to ship. I believe if we followed all the laws of all the other countries, whether they follow them or not, soon not many manufacturers would be left in this country.

From my perspective, I align myself pretty much with ssnvet - Juszkiewicz has been very vocal about his opposition to the Obama administration, and he paid for that. If you really want a focus on what the Obama administration is like, read Edward Klien's outstanding book, "The Amateur" which is factual in that he has taken his information from over 300 interviews from close friends and aides from all sides of the story concerning the Obamas, taken from the last 17 years. And Edward Klein is not a conservative reporter! Of course, if you are an Obama supporter, you will not bother to read this book and simply write it off as fiction.

Did Gibson mess up on some paperwork and probably ignore it? Yes. Did any other guitar company in the last four years do anything like this, or have they all been squeaky clean? We'll never know. Taylor's video is very touchy-feely, and I can see him being very heart-felt in his compassion for endangered wood. I believe that he believes in saving trees. But I have to wonder, do all of his purchasing agents? Do all of his buyers, scattered across the globe? How about his logistic suppliers from second and third parties? Somehow, with paychecks on the line based on performance, and no Taylor fortune behind them, I have to wonder.

We do know that the other four majors, Fender, Taylor, Martin and Paul Reed Smith all gave to the Obama campaign, where Gibson did not. 
This shows a pattern in the Obama administration that is quite bothering. If you are for them, you are fine. If you disagree with them, and they find that you have some power, they look for an angle.
Just today the world found out that Tim Geitner was the driving force behind the elimination of 20,000 non-union pensions in the GM Delphi division, part of the "bail-out" of GM. We have a Delphi plant not too far from here, I pity those people who worked there for years as supervisors, only to find out they have no pension, when they thought they did. But if you are a union member, your pension is intact. Welcome to the new economy…

Henry Juszkiewicz made a very profound statement yesterday, "That it might be easier to just close down the Gibson plant, fire all the employees, and hire Samick and Cort, two renowned Asian manufacturers, to make Gibson guitars." 
They already make Epiphones, what's a few decal and pickup changes? Don't be surprised if pushed, he does simply that.

Lastly, I agree with the salvation of precious resources on this planet. It would not be too hard for the guitar industry to simply change up its tradition a little, and let other woods come into play. My guitars are not made from woods that are endangered. They sound fine. I just finished a lapsteel made of solid oak. The strings ring out forever. Oak is used to fry lobster at restaurants it is so plentiful. Tradition gets in the way of a lot of innovation.

But like when the Chinese had the world's largest teak forest in the 1400's, it was only teak that would suffice for their fleet of ships, and the Forbidden City, and the houses of the wealthy, and soon the forest was gone.
There are ways around the precious woods, people just have to give a little.


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## lysdexic (Mar 21, 2011)

Very interesting. Thank you Paul.


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## Doss (Mar 14, 2012)

Don't you "I hate [the government | Obama | liberals | conservatives | Cherry Coke]" people have enough threads already? Sheesh. Y'all need to go spout off somewhere else. (If it's confusing, I'm not speaking about the original post. It's the "Obama did it" or "The Guvment's out to get ya" crazies that I'm referring to.)

From what I've read, Gibson had been warned about this before and did nothing about it. They even have internal emails where Gibson talked about their decision to try to circumvent the system. They knew they did wrong. They paid for it. I don't see what the big deal is.


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## TenDigitHands (Jul 9, 2012)

I joined LJ's because it is supposed to be a community of friendly people. Yet, another thread that moves past discourse into a less respectable format. 
I do agree with ssnvet that it is wasteful, extorsion, and a coercive act against Gibson.


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

Me neither. The problem with any thread, any forum, is that anyone can be who ever they want, they can be an scholar and dole out all the paradox's of expertise, turning a simple thread into a land of a never ending war.

I really like the Quail that run around only feet from where I work in my outdoor office.










Sarcasm


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## AandCstyle (Mar 21, 2012)

ssnvet: +1 Thank you!


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## juniorjock (Feb 3, 2008)

I think Gibson will be able to survive this. They would have probably paid the fine at the start and be done with it. I was wanting to read this thread because I'm interested in this stuff. Problem was that most post were just too damn long….. way too damn long. A lot of "cut and paste".


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## madts (Dec 30, 2011)

I am sorry Mark. I am not old enough to be your father, but more like an older brother.

What up with all this vitriol, Bro


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

THEY MADE EVERY EFFORT TO COMPLY WITH THE LAW!!!!!

Apparently not. Let's be clear… this was NOT a clerical error or some form they forgot to sign and they did have reason to believe to wood was illegal. They didn't check, didn't care, thumbed their nose at the law and the authorities but some of you are trying to make them out as victims; they are not. At least read up on the subject before spewing your nonsense and maybe you'll have a different perspective.


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## juniorjock (Feb 3, 2008)

Some strong words there wormil. Exactly who are you referring to as "your" or "you'll"?


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## Tedstor (Mar 12, 2011)

1- This thread makes me want to plant a few trees this fall. I might go to the local nursery and pick up few hickory saplings.

2- Is there an area of the US where ebony might be able to grow??


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

Exactly who are you referring to as "your" or "you'll"?

some of you are trying to make them out as victims

Seems pretty clear doesn't it? I get irritated when people just make up nonsense to twist an issue into a political discussion.


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

Why don't you gentlemen, just kindly agree to disagree…………and walk away.

As with every story, their is yours and his, yet the truth most often lies in-between.


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## juniorjock (Feb 3, 2008)

Sorry, you didn't answer my question. If you were referring to a certain LJ, you should say so. If not, you should say that you screwed up by addressing everyone of the site….........


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

I quoted ssnvet but my comments were not restricted specifically to him. I am addressing the people who are just making up stuff to twist this into a political conversation. Does that apply to you?


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## juniorjock (Feb 3, 2008)

No…... it don't mean ******************** to me. I've got my Les Paul…... and they can't take it back.


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

Sorry Folks, I never posted this expecting such strong opinions, one way or the other. I tried to delete it but I dont think I can.

You know a society grows strong when men plant trees knowing they will never enjoy its shade

Officially on "Unwatch"


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## madts (Dec 30, 2011)

On a completely different note.

I would like to make an electric guitar for my son-in-law. He has his own band in Austin Texas. What would be the best model, style and wood to use for this endeavour. I am in the process of putting together a kit guitar from Grizzley, just to get an idea of whats involved.

On second thoughts I will start a post on this.


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## Doss (Mar 14, 2012)

Of course they didn't go to court. Why would they want to? So it would cost them more money and so they could run the risk of racking up even more fines or criminal charges? Sheesh.

To answer your question, I'm reading the actual case closing letter thank you very much.

Yes, I will bash Gibson all I want. They're a major corporation with the power to do simple checks and they refused to do them. In not doing so, they got burned. It's their own fault. Deal with it. Does it mean I hate them? No, I don't have anything against them. I just stated that they got what they deserved as any lawbreaker would. Hell, I think they got off lighter than they could have.

'Mericuh! 'Mericuh! 'Mericuh! <sigh>

Here's *my contribution* and what it boils down to (condensed from the case closing letter from the DOJ to Gibson):

- Madagascar set a law in place in 2006 (Madagascar Interministerial Order 16.030/2006) which banned all harvest and prohibited export of ebony not declared to the government of Madagascar prior to *February 15, 2006* (except in finished form which fingerboards are a part of (sort of)) .

- Gibson uses a foreign supplier (from Germany, T.N. GMBH) to obtain wood (fingerboards). This supplier was certified as forest-friendly and received some of its wood from a forest operator (R.T.) in Madagascar.

- *2007*: Gibson's documentation reveals that it was receiving ebony *after* the 16.030/2006 was in effect.

- *June 9, 2008*: A Gibson representative attends a fact-finding trip to Madagascar with a group called the "Music Wood Coalition."

During this trip and in a follow up, the *representative learns that export of ebony is illegal and also that the fingerboards as specified by Gibson are illegal "finished" products* as well. He also learns of the connection between Gibson's supplier (T.N. GMBH) and the forest operator (R.T) and the fact that the forest operator's stock is under temporary seizure.

The representative and the *president of Gibson* receive an email detailing the fact-finding trip's results. This email along with other information is forwarded to a Gibson wood purchaser and others.

- *2008*: The operator is given "exceptional authority" to *export rosewood* which was deemed legal from its stockpiles.

- The supplier, T.N. GMBH, received wood from its forest operator (R.T.) in Madagascar (rosewood *and ebony*).

- *June 20, 2008*: Gibson places an order for ebony fingerboard blanks despite knowledge that it is illegal.
- *December 22, 2008*: Repeat order.

- *February 25, 2009*: The representative reports to his superiors that because of the instability and violence in Madagascar, the opportunity to purchase Madagascar ebony with ebony "for the grey market" from R.T. through T.N. was optimal. In other words, they knew this was a great chance to score some illegal ebony.

- *April 2, 2009*: Repeat order.

- *September 28, 2009*: Repeat order. This time though, they reported that the wood was "builders' joinery and carpentry of wood"... flooring panels, shingles, and shakes. (Honestly though, I think this was their supplier's fault).

- *June 20, 2008 to November 17, 2009*: Gibson did not ask for or obtain paperwork or official assurances from Madagascar officials that the wood it was purchasing from Madagascar was legally harvested or exported despite information that they had gathered earlier to the contrary. It also did not ask for or obtain this from their supplier as well.

Also, Gibson is *getting back* the wood that was seized that they legally obtained.

I can put this in a timeline if all these words are hard for you to understand. I can even use pretty colors and pictures too.

I guess if I hate American companies by your logic, you must hate facts as they were presented. I guess I should ask what you were reading now in fairness… an op-ed? What I find odd is that I didn't see anywhere in that report where Obama was leading the charge on this. Can someone provide me with that part?

Here's what I know, if you're a company that deals with other countries moving around any item that is "sensitive" (information, materials, personnel, etc.) then you must do your due diligence. Never leave anything to chance.

I only write this in this fashion because you have taken it upon yourself to use an accusatory tone in some of your responses and seem to love attacking non-relevant positions such as political party affiliation or allegiance to country rather than actually addressing the topic at hand (let me remind you: A business breaking the law to obtain illegally harvested wood). It's a shame I can't depend on our elders to at least stay focused… I have enough problems trying to stop our interns from staring at their dang phones and work. I thought you guys were supposed to be the ones we looked up to for guidance… it's starting to make sense now. I'll have to apologize to my nephew next time I yell at him for not paying attention and instead yell at his grandparents. See? I can wander off topic too. It makes reading this long post even worse doesn't it?

Questions?


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## JAGWAH (Dec 15, 2009)

A gallant effort DOSS. I applaud you.

But you should have known it wouldn't matter. It's like trying to convince a hoarder that they live in filth or a bulimic they are to thin. Logic and irrefutable proof doesn't work.

And no Mark I didn't call you a hoarder or a bulimic. But what I have to say to you is you have way to much pointless vitriol to be considered seriously.


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## Doss (Mar 14, 2012)

And again, proving my point. You asked, you received, and you didn't like it so now you're taking your ball and going home. And to be blunt, you can take what I did as a contribution to this site. None of this was intended to be a fight with you (at least on my part). I just handled it matter-of-factly with a little color thrown in for humor. And yes, I do feel like I'm watching a 12 year old.

Also, to be succinct, I don't hate Gibson. I just think they got caught doing something wrong and paid the price. I don't hope they go out of business, but I believe if you do something wrong you should be prepared for the consequences.

I truly hope you're not done with LJ because it seems you do have some expertise in certain areas. Maybe you should just stay away from posting things that are political in nature or off topic and instead focus more on the woodworking and technical aspects of such.


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## JGM0658 (Aug 16, 2011)

If you want to talk environmentalism, then maybe all wood from Brasil should be banned. The rain forest in the Amazon is being deforested at an alarming rate, far worse than ebony from Madagascar.

The question no one has asked is, what is Madagascar doing to enforce *their own laws*? As one (if not) the biggest consumer of goods in the world I understand the US good "intention" to reduce the market of illegally harvested goods (animals, wood, plants, etc) in accordance to foreign laws, but really, are Gibson guitars so much in demand that they are causing the deforestation of ebony? I doubt it.

Seems to me this was a deliberate targeting of a small company to make an example. Specially when you come to think that the justice department might spend it's time better trying to prosecute the CEOs of AIG, Bear Stern, Stanley Morgan, etc. These people ruined the US economy and hurt many economies in the world, all Gibson has done is buy some ebony which was certified by it's importer to be legal. The Lacy act does not state "you must send someone half way across the world to make sure it is legally harvested", it says you must have a certificate that it is so. In this case the importer is at fault, but since they cannot prosecute them, they go after the "john" as it were.

The only thing Gibson is guilty of is stupidity. Sending someone to Madagascar was idiotic.


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## Tennessee (Jul 8, 2011)

I just want to say a couple things more that I missed in my other post. When I watched the Taylor video, it struck me odd in two ways. First, he makes no mention of any reforestation efforts with ebony. Now these trees are obviously up to 100 years old, looking at the very quick video clip he posted of the trucks hauling two trees equaling 6 tons of wood on the truck.
Instead, he talks about owning 75% of the remaining legal ebony from Cameroon, and the other 25% in Cameroon he doesn't talk about. 
Secondly, he doesn't talk about what will happen when these woods do finally run out, if they do, like spruce and others used in instruments and other fine applications. Nor does he talk in any way about the possible reforestation of any other country. Instead he focuses on how TAYLOR owns this ebony, and will use it and sell it, obviously at a premium.

This is where I would really like to see a small transformation in multiple wood using industries - the inclusion of what many call "lesser woods". 
I just today took in my shop for repair, an Oscar Schmidt acoustic, which many would call cheap. The guitar was a laminate, save for its swamp ash soundboard. It had a small problem of breakage on the bottom, not affecting play, so I played it. To my ear, it sounded just fine, as a matter of fact, had great sustain, deep tones, and was a great sounding guitar that the owner obviously knows and wants to keep it. The book value is about $150. Really cheap.
Also today a member of my church asked to borrow my Samick Acoustic, which has a cedar soundboard, and Koa and other woods for the sides and back, none of them endangered. This guitar sounds so good, it was used in the creation of our church's major CD release, and is often borrowed for Sunday service in front of 700 people. How bad can non-endangered woods sound?

That's my take. We have plenty of wood on the earth, we just have to learn how to substitute other species, not endangered, into our builds and move forward. Goodness, Fender made a fortune making solidbodies out of alder, ash, maple, and other non-endangered species. Many acoustics today sound as good if not better than many "vintage" guitars. Even the carbon fiber Rainsong guitars sound fabulous, and you really can leave them out in the rain, and they stay good to go. If we need to conserve, let's just make some minor adjustments to our thought process on wood and move forward.


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## juniorjock (Feb 3, 2008)

Very informative post, Paul.


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## CL810 (Mar 21, 2010)

Great post Paul. Well thought out.


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## JGM0658 (Aug 16, 2011)

Paul, I had the same reaction to the Taylor video. In the FWW response section afterwards there was a response from Taylor stating that their intention was to institute a reforestation program but that it was very difficult because of the corruption and local laws.

In the end I thought as you did, we as woodworkers have learnt to adapt once some species of wood became prohibitive in price, luthiers should learn to do the same.


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## woodworker59 (May 16, 2012)

I have also seen the Bob Taylor post, well done to Bob and all the companies that he will do business with.. I don't like the way the feds went about their business, but hopefully it will help to regulate the harvest of non sustainable forests.. We need to take a hard look at how we go about our business, what was once a huge population of Ash is being destroyed by beetles and by some estimations will be wiped off north America within
ten years… another species that we can no longer use to make our craft.. little Elm, no chestnut, whats next..
Anything that we can do as consumers and builders should be done and taught to the next generation. I hope my grand kids can still make furniture from wood.. real wood, not some commercially produced product that they call wood. everyday we lose something else that we will never get back… its just a dam shame.. Papa


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## Tennessee (Jul 8, 2011)

Papa: Did you know that actually there are more trees in the United States now than say, in the early 20th century? Around the beginning of the industrial revolution in this country, we had mainly uncontrolled lumbering in this country, mostly due to the massive influx of immigrants who needed housing, and the fact that cities and towns were popping up everywhere thanks to the railroads, and later due to our road system. Most of those buildings were wood, as was all the furniture, fencelines, power posts, rail supports, the list goes on and on.
We finally realized what we were doing, and most forestry companies learned that the only way to keep making money is to repopulate their cutting areas.
That being said, they have made a concerted effort to repopulate those areas with the fastest growing, cheapest lumber the biologists can provide. There aren't many people worried about reforesting ash, maple, oak and other great hardwood forests, just takes too long to reap the profits. Just give me fast growth pines and soft maples, poplar and other quick grow woods so I can make a profit, please.
Still, at least the knowledge of reforestation is in place in this country and Canada, and it should not be too large a jump to make them include a percentage of hardwoods. Ironically, down here in the South after the tornadoes went through Alabama, Tennessee and Georgia, you could not give away a ten foot trunk of oak, there was so much of it on the ground. Even today, I can buy 4/4 #1 red oak, 4S, for less than $3.50 a bd. ft. that's about the cost of the lumber mill getting it to that point, and little or no cost for the wood. That's $35 for a 1" thick, 12" wide plank, ten ft. long, no knots, straight grained, milled all four sides, from the tree to the lumber truck to the mill through the cutting to the planing to the place where I can pick through it. And they will cut it to my specs and load it on my truck for free.

On another note, there are species of chestnut that are being developed to try and defeat the fungus/virus that killed off the original forests of chestnut which used to dot the North. It's a mixed bag to date, but the curious nature of people like that should conquer it at some point. I think we'll see chestnut trees again, just not with those wonderful purples and browns intermixed like the old stuff.

The real bothersome issue is the equator hardwoods, mostly located in countries that have little or no reason to reforest. They are simply not in a position, either with their governments, or their problems with poaching and other theft issues, to tackle the problem right now. That's why I am a little concerned when someone like Taylor buys up 75% of the remaining available ebony stock, with no plans of reforestation in place due to the issues JGM mentioned. He simply wants to make money. and he'll use the B grade trees because he does not have enough A trees. I don't buy his conservation argument. If he was really concerned, he would be replanting and talking to other areas about reforestation projects. No mention of that at all. Taylor sees a really nice opening handed to him by the stupidity of Gibson, he took it.

When China used up their Teak forest in the 1400's, little did they know that slowly but surely, the Gobi desert would start to grow. It is now only about 30 kilometers West of Beijing, and the 1.5 kilometer wide swatch of bamboo they put up as a "green zone", to try and stop it has had little success. Our grandchildren have a good chance of watching the Chinese vacate that city, should the desert keep growing at its current rate of about 1.5 kilometer a year. My last fall in China, in 2006, they had a sandstorm in Beijing that for the first time took paint off cars. They don't like to talk about it, but satellite photos show that it is really getting close, and is already in the outskirt suburbs. You can see it on Google Earth. Just look up Beijing, and see how close the tan area is to the western part of the city. About 40 minutes by car from Beijing to the edge of the Gobi Desert.

You can see similar issues in countries around the equator and in Africa, where they are finding out the hard way that the forest floor does NOT make a good piece of farm land, simply because the trees spent the last 1000 years taking out all the minerals, which are now the wonderful colors we all love in the woods we mostly cannot get now!
In the end, I think we will have to change how we operate. One idea I was put onto, and I like it a lot. A local luthier friend of mine goes to Home Depot, and purposely looks for the most green and purple poplar he can find, which is almost always written off by others. Home Depot even gives him a discount for it being "sub-standard". He takes this colored lumber and resaws it to make guitar sides, which are absolutely beautiful. And by using this obvious heartwood poplar, he gets a tonal wood that not many have ever thought would work as well as it does. 
That's the kind of thinking that will save a lot of wood for future people.
Tricks like having a piece of oak with a big scabby knot in it, and filling the knot with clear poly or epoxy filler makes for beautiful, artful wood, but when you see someone doing it, it is considered strange and "why don't I do that once in a while?" 
There is all kinds of things we can do, we just have to adjust.


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