# Can't stand plywood.



## RussellAP (Feb 21, 2012)

There are definitely uses for plywood, but unless I have a lot of area to cover, I prefer to glue up some 1×8's for my panels. 









I'm recreating this from the picture and haven't used one piece of plywood yet. 
I find that using a biscuit joiner and Titebond II gives a stronger build than plywood. Takes more time but gives a stronger finished work.

One of the main reasons I don't use plywood is that I have a small shop and having those large pieces takes up room, plus they are hard to work with and if you make an error they are expensive to replace.

I know some of you have nice large shops and think I'm crazy, and maybe I am.

Which do you prefer for your cabinets?


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## SuperCubber (Feb 23, 2012)

Plywood forever!


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## SierraRick (Sep 2, 2014)

Plywood.
Doesn't move like hardwood.


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## NoThanks (Mar 19, 2014)

A professional realizes that their time is worth way more than the labor to glue up pcs, and it's far cheaper to use ply.

All you are doing is taking money out of your pocket!


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

Plywood here…..


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## OSU55 (Dec 14, 2012)

If painting, definitely plywood. Recreating the piece shown, plywood, since face frames are used. If I wanted just edge frames, probably solid wood for the shelving - I don't like edge banding. The entertainment center would be ply, maybe solid wood for the top shelving if edge framed.

As mentioned, if I were doing it for $, ply all the way.


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## ChuckC (May 13, 2010)

I feel the same as you about plywood. I hardly use it. If I made the stuff for a living I may think differently though.


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

Saying plywood is better then wood, or wood is better then plywood, is like saying a potato chip is better then a potato, or a grape better then a bottle of wine.

Plywood can be as rude as the nose of a pig, and just as tough, ..... not all plywoods are created the same and some are ugly, others as sweet as wine.

I not only like plywood, I love it when its pancake flat, and comes pre-finished : )


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## dhazelton (Feb 11, 2012)

Plywood is dimensionally stable. Real wood is not.


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## Charlie5791 (Feb 21, 2012)

HINT: for the entertainment center…
Because you're using 3/4" thick stock for the back, plan on installing a mount for the flat panel TV and get it off the stand.

Why?, you ask…
Because it's a PAIN IN THE BUTT to dust with the TV on a stand. Seriously. I have a similar piece of furniture here. After I mounted the TV on a mount in that recess I was like… "Why didn't I do this in the first place?"

And plywood….. it's just another option for me. Depends what I'm doing. It *IS* hard to handle in a small shop and if you work alone all the time (like me). That's why I have my cuts planned before the sheets ever come home and my breakdown table is set up and ready. The sheets come out of the vehicle and slide onto the breakdown table. Circular saw and edge guide. Break 'em down into manageable pieces.

I would RATHER just work with solid wood. But if I just need some cabinets and nobody is going to see the sides…. plywood. If I'm building a table or furniture piece (or a new EASEL!) then I like solid wood.


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## pmayer (Jan 3, 2010)

I use plywood by default for cabinet carcases because I lack both the time and money to build them out of hardwood, and I also don't see the benefit of using hardware for this in most cases (where the asthetic warrants this, such as a Krenov style cabinet, then by all means use hardwood). It would be an unusual cabinet application that requires more strength than plywood. Working with plywood in a small shop just requires a decent guide (shop made is fine) for your circular saw and some saw horses. For less than $100 you can have a good circ saw, adequate blade, and a guide that will give you a great cut quality with virtually no chipping. For an approach even easier than saw horses, lay the plywood on top of a sheet of 1" or thicker XPS insulation that sits on your shop floor (or driveway) and it serves as a great sawing platform.


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## Rick Dennington (Aug 27, 2009)

I refuse to answer on the grounds that might tend to incrininate me…....!!!!!


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

I wouldn't say that one was better then the other, without knowing where it was being used, and without speaking to the person who wanted to own it, and what the purpose is, I think its always good to have an understanding that not all things are measured equally, that there are just varied degrees of being right and that sense where the fulcrum sits, is always owned by the person who signs the cheque.

Just because some one hands you a cheque

Doesnt mean you have to accept it : )


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

Plywood is stable
Real wood is not

really ?

If your sitting on your donkey and watching the TV,

either one works so far : )


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## RussellAP (Feb 21, 2012)

For who ever said it was cheaper to use plywood, The plywood at Lowes for this job would run me $50 a sheet and I'd have to have Lowes cut it for me because I can't handle a 4×8 sheet. Just too heavy and if you drop it on a corner, it's ruined. Using 6' and 10' pine 1×8's is much more economical. I glue up just what I want and if something happens to it, I can rip the bad piece out and put in another for very little. The depth on these pieces is not all that much, so I rarely have to glue up more than three boards to make a side. The backs are plywood, but that is all.


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## mojapitt (Dec 31, 2011)

If you use the high-grade pine boards from the box stores, it's not cheaper than plywood. I know at Menards, you can get the cheaper pine boards, but I wouldn't use them for a customers project.

Mathematically, plywood is stronger than pine of equal thickness. But, you need to use the appropriate type plywood as well.


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

I agree with you Russell, sometimes people just don't get it do they

They simply don't wear your shoes : ) so I'm with you, if the shoe fits, wear it and make everything out of solid wood.

Others want to, they just refuse to admit it, or are constrained by the person who writes a cheque


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## bondogaposis (Dec 18, 2011)

If you don't like plywood don't use it, but it really is pretty cheap compared to solid wood. At $50/ sheet it comes out to $1.56/ bf. Lowe's website lists an 8" x 8' pine board at $12.27, that comes out to $2.30 a bf., that's a $.74 a bf savings, plus you don't have to glue it up. Here is the link= I used for the pine board numbers. Maybe it is cheaper at your Lowe's?


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## NoThanks (Mar 19, 2014)

If your doing this for a living, someday you will realize there are only so many days/hours in a year for you to use to make money. (if that is your goal) When you figure you use all of the available time and you have maxed out your income you will have to start looking for other ways to increase profits.

Right now you may think you have the extra time to glue up planks, but I guarantee when you max out your income you will realize that your time is better spent using plywood. (when applicable) There is no way it's cheaper to use glued up planks over plywood when you factor in your labor to cut, football, glue, clamp and then sand the seams and prep it for paint.

To each there own, I'm just sayin. Take it any way you want.

By the way, you never mentioned you were using plywood for the backs in your opening post. Makes a difference in the overall build, your not gluing as many planks as originally thought.

The whole process of woodworking is a learning adventure. The good part about is, your in charge of what you do
so whatever floats your boat is best.

I use to wear uncomfortable shoes until someone showed me better!


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

So say I go to Lowes,

and buy a sheet of plywood ?

in the winter, I start my truck, and drive through all those traffic lights, and park and talk and lift and move big huge slabs of plywood, and tie it off on the top of my car, or pile it the back, that for every dime I spend to haul it back, gas milage and children and wife and more time, makes more sense then buying pre milled solid wood and cracking them off into parts on a sliding miter saw ? Add winter and it becomes a no brainer ?

I can listen to both the fiddle and the violin, they can sound the same, and when givn to the varied degrees of experience to those musicians who put bow to string, they are equally as joyful or as painful to my ear as my worst nightmare

whos right ?


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## NoThanks (Mar 19, 2014)

I say what ever makes sense to you…do.
I know what works best for me and you can split hairs anyway you want.

BTW, I don't buy material at Lowes lol can't afford it, I go to lumber companies


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

but it always ends, in the person who signs the cheque : )
as for the beginning of that cycle and through its end
its almost always how much of the cheque that is written
that remains in your wallet


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## jmartel (Jul 6, 2012)

If someone is paying me a bunch of money to make them an entertainment center, I sure as hell wouldn't be making it out of dimensional pine from a big box store.


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

i surely agree

ild rather spend their money on what they want

that in itself, like an olive branch, is a deciding factor


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

what if you peeled the walls made of wood, off a home built in 1776

if they paid you

what would you charge ?

whats it worth to you ?


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## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

Material and labor costs aside, I would never build a cabinet out of Pine and then paint it white…..any color for that matter, but white in particular.

I makes no difference how well you prep and paint,or how dry the lumber is, solid wood will expand and contract and shrink to some degree.
It may be minimal/negligible in some instances, other instances, it could be substantial. Any knots, glue lines or grain showing through a white painted surface such as the media center above 6 months after I paid for it Would piss me off.
Remember, you have no control over the environment that media center is going into, and it may end up being drier than a popcorn fart, or like a rainforest….or worse, both in the course of a year.
Stability is your (and your customers) friend when it comes to any product you build, especially a smooth white surface. Why take the chance of failure in that aspect if you don't have to?
Solid wood has it's place and so does plywood….mdf…mdo…etc. Whether you like it or not, sometimes one is a much better choice over the other.
What does your customer expect from the product you deliver? Both short and long term?


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## SuperCubber (Feb 23, 2012)

Moron, are you able to teleport the pine boards to your shop? You don't need to pick those up and take time away from the family? Funny you mention intelligence and integrity, when we're talking about a black and white, clear cut answer, and cheap pine boards for a paid project.

So say you CAN teleport the pine boards, you would have to live, AT A MINIMUM, 85 miles from Lowes to break even. And that's based on a 10 MPG beater truck, and the cheapest pine boards. You go with Select Pine and whoa, you're talking 340 mile round trip in gas money, and at least 6 hours away from family. If that's the case (and if it is, I want in on this teleportation machine), then by all means, I agree with you.


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

i dont recall mentioning teleportation ?

i simply do not pick sides

what works for you, be it teleporting, or shoving your kids into a truck and driving to the borg, or harvesting the urban jungle of skids, into useful wood

isnt my choice

its yours


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

some exceptions applied : )


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

oddly enough in my world, I am forced to call bull******************** when i see fit : )

i only call that shot

when I sign the cheque


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## daddywoofdawg (Feb 1, 2014)

wood costs to much and you have to do more processing,joiner,planer etc.I like solid wood and maybe use it for expensive project or smaller ones but there is a place for plywood.


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## CTW (Oct 24, 2014)

I love this cabinet and I hate plywood in anything related to finish work or furniture. I think it looks cheap and makes custom work look mass produced. Plywood works well in general construction, but I prefer to keep it out my home's interior. All of the comments about its stability, etc. are true, but it is simply not aesthetic.

My name is mud.

CTW


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

starting a planer, for the average, is nothing more then being average

what if your tools spoke to you

its kinda like having a dog

some people never experience the joy of having one


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

50$ for hardwood ply at lowes

120$ for 6- 1×8x8's. 20$ a board. Cut it down to 10$ a board. Still paying more and you have to do glue ups.

..... Just sayin


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

its a love hate relationship that only the owner knows

plywood vs wood is hate vs love

some are adamant in their conviction : )

so sad they lack the age of knowing the difference


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

i would rather argue the specie of a bird

then the merits of plywood over solids

at least one

is definitive


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

the other

not so much










your turn


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

being afraid of all the folks u
you left behind
is no way to live


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

unwatch


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## SuperCubber (Feb 23, 2012)

> unwatch
> 
> - Moron


Thank god


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## mandatory66 (Jul 26, 2012)

I hate plywood for the same reasons as you.It is not always flat as a table though it is stable. Perhaps if I had a large shop and a panel saw I would feel different. (maybe a track saw) I use boards when ever I can and I just get the feeling of cheap construction when I use Ply. I think a quality project demands boards and using ply is the easy way out.For shop cabinets etc. I use it. I do not sell anything I make and every pice of furniture is for myself or friends & family. I am retired & have the time to use boards.


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## RussellAP (Feb 21, 2012)

I know the environment these are going into, it's a persons living room. Pine paints quite nice if you prep the surface with professional products, plus you see the grain under the paint which is rather a nice look.

Someone above quoted some price for pine 1×8x8 around $23 a board. Obviously got that off the Lowes site. You have to go to the store if you want true prices. I pay around $6-8 for my boards and they are hand picked with my grading system considering what I intend to do with them.

The advantage to using pine dimensional lumber is that with planning you don't waste more than a couple inches a board. You have less cutting of large pieces on a TS, and you can easily transport and store without damage.

I've made and delivered the shelves and they are solid as a rock and beautiful. I've made them from plywood before and they are nowhere near as strong.

The way I made them is a 1×4 frame top and bottom with glued up pine on the sides and top, the backs are 3/8" wainscoting. Shelves are glue ups, with crown molding on top and one side and floor molding bottom and one side.


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## RussellAP (Feb 21, 2012)

As far as the comments about stability of the wood, I do realize that not everyone lives in the same part of the world and conditions in some parts might make wood stability an issue. Here in Kansas City we don't have excessive moisture or extreme conditions very much. The home is climate controlled so what would the issue be about wood stability. I build outdoor furniture for half the year, believe me I know about wood stability and it's not an issue.

Sure it does take more time to glue up boards, but isn't that why they came to me in the first place. Why would someone pay me a pile of money to get the same sh!t they could buy for half that at some two bit furniture store…and by two bit furniture store I mean most all furniture stores.

I make my furniture they way they used to be made many years ago before plywood.

But please don't get me wrong. Plywood has it's uses and I'd use it for sides of my work if I was building something large enough. I don't like gluing up more than three boards, so anything beyond that would be ply.

The reason I don't glue up more than three boards is that it tends to warp a little and being strong wood a warped panel can make the whole shelf unstable or out of square. You know what I mean, you build a box and only three sides touch the ground. Hate that. So I keep the glue ups under 24" wide. I've glued up quite a few boards now and have a process that produces very flat panels.


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## RussellAP (Feb 21, 2012)

And guys….for the record…. I hate crown molding. It's the only thing that forces me to be a sculptor and a carpenter. lol


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

Meh, some like vanilla and some chocolate some like both.


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## moke (Oct 19, 2010)

I like the cost of plywood…I too, would despute that a pine glue up is cheaper at least around here. The only reason I avoid plywood is how thin the top plys have become. If you are not going to paint it, you really are taking a huge chance to use even a ROS. Now I recently did get some plywood from Lowe's that really had a better thickness of the top ply than I had seen in a while. Other than that, I really don't mind using plywood. I did use some oak ply that had an MDF interior from Menards and that was aweful IMHO….it had the thinnest ply I ever saw and like all MDF, generating sawdust like no other. 
Mike


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## NoThanks (Mar 19, 2014)

Imported plywoods have thinner skins. 
You have to buy domestic to get good ply, and then the skins are still pretty thin and getting thinner.


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## DocPaul (Jun 30, 2014)

Plywood unless I want a specific look I can only get with glued up panels.


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## Earlextech (Jan 13, 2011)

Pro's use plywood for carcase work. They also, usually, have a shop large enough to handle a 4×8 sheet.
Pro's don't buy materials at the borg.
Pro's are in it to make money.
Pro's use solid wood for furniture, but also don't buy it at the borg.

Weekend warriors can do what makes them happy. Pro's do what makes customers happy.

There's isn't a right and wrong answer.


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## RussellAP (Feb 21, 2012)

Earlextech. I'm not one to disparage the big box stores. They have the same wood the quality lumber yards around here have. When I want to kick it up a notch I have a mill within about 45 miles of my shop for that. I get all my hardwoods and slabs from them. They are about half the price of some of the other lumber stores in town and provide services like straightline ripping, planing, and sanding of large pieces and orders.

If I had a panel saw/frame I'd be more inclined to use furniture grade ply, but I have to have Lowes cut it for me when I buy a 4×8. It's just easier all the way around. One day I'd like to move into a shop with more room but till then I have to do what I can to keep costs down and still produce a quality product.


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## BritBoxmaker (Feb 1, 2010)

Every material has its uses. To exclude one on the basis that you 'don't like it' seems to be cutting your nose to spite your face.


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## RussellAP (Feb 21, 2012)

BritBoxmaker, I don't exclude it, I just don't like working with it.


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## bobro (Oct 24, 2014)

You can't just swap glued up boards for plywood willy-nilly. In some applications there's going to be different joinery possibilities and limitations involved. For example, in the cabinet pictured in the original post, if the molding on the sides were to be glued onto glued up boards, it would create a cross-grain situation.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

I like plywood…. but there is a lot of really ********************tly plywood out there.

Nothing is easier than using good ply… it doesn't move and stays flat. (Tigerply from Menards sucks)


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## RussellAP (Feb 21, 2012)

Bobro, I shoot the molding on with a one inch finish nail.


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## RussellAP (Feb 21, 2012)

DrDirt, I know what you're talking about. The cheapest furniture grade that I've found around here is $49.95. It's good stuff, but you always have a lot of waste unless you're lucky enough to build something that can utilize the dimensions. In a small shop like mine, (basically a two car garage) cut off material can choke you real good. I have it all over the place. It's good and bad, because sometimes you need a piece of that cut off, but most of the time it's just in the way. I like calm warm days, I can burn it in small quantities in my outdoor fire pit, but last time I did that the FD came by and asked me to put it out.


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## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

One plywood that I like is the Aruaco ply that I got from Menards. At Menards they also store the plywood flat instead of on arms like other big box stores


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## bobro (Oct 24, 2014)

> Bobro, I shoot the molding on with a one inch finish nail.
> 
> - RussellAP


Yeah, I figured. I was just giving an example of one of the many instances where you could do something one way in plywood but not in solid wood. Backs are an obvious place where you can't take a specifically plywood construction and simply swap out the plywood for solid wood.

My point is that there's a bit of an "apples and oranges" to plywood vs. solid wood, due to the many various construction possibilites and limitations, and differences in aesthetics as well. You did wainscoting on the back of your cabinet- that's a perfect example of where solid wood and plywood aren't really substitutes for each other.

But I do see your point: if you're doing designs that don't require it, and it's expensive for you, and you don't have the room and transport for it, and people give you money to *not* use it, then it's actually practical for you to use as little plywood as possible. Plus you don't like working it. That's not crazy, more like common sense, appropriate to you in your situation. I imagine a whole lot of people have comparable feelings about other materials- tropical woods, mdf, glass.


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## RussellAP (Feb 21, 2012)

bobro, thank you so much for understanding where I'm coming from. So many people on this forum read meaning into words that simply isn't there. Now I'm branded a plywood hater. Seems these days everything has to be black and white and the art of discussion is a rare thing.


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## ric53 (Mar 29, 2014)

Plywood for kitchen cabinets and large installed pieces, solid wood for all the rest.


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## RussellAP (Feb 21, 2012)

Of course all this being said, guess what I did? Yep, I hauled a 4×8 sheet of wainscoting back to the shop and cut it on my table saw. Actually I cut it on a piece of 4×4 MDF on top of the saw with a jig saw. I only needed 37 inches of the 8' part.

My grandmother (wise woman that she was) said, Rusty, never spit up, it has no place to go but right back on you. lol. Love you Gramm.


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## RussellAP (Feb 21, 2012)

Ric53. Agreed. Good thing I don't build kitchen cabinets. I'd need a bigger place.


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## bobro (Oct 24, 2014)

All we need is someone to say how much they hate pocket screws, and your imagined trangression will be soon forgotten!


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## NoThanks (Mar 19, 2014)

"So many people on this forum read meaning into words that simply isn't there. Now I'm branded a plywood hater"

Yeah, maybe start of with a different title and the reactions would be different. 

I hate pocket screws!!


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## TravisH (Feb 6, 2013)

I would prefer solid would but not a fan of pine. Nice because it is cheap but I don't enjoy working with it because it wastes a lot of time in my opinion to get a stable piece. Rarely have I been able to use something from the store as is. Every piece looks like they took it dead center from the tree. I end up ripping it chucking the pith, gluing it back up to make usable board, blah, blah, blah. If not I know here the piece will cup eventually just a huge waste of time. I would end up just buying poplar from a mill.

Home Depot will cut it for free (4 free cuts). Makes a lot of sense if one can't transport larger sheet goods or difficulty lifting them do to bad backs, shoulder, etc..


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## fge (Sep 8, 2008)

ignorance: A lack of knowledge, understanding or education.

Stupid: Not intelligent : having or showing a lack of ability to learn and understand things.

You have been given very worthy advice concerning the usage of plywood in construction as it pertains to a professional shop now you only have to show the ability to learn some very simple common sense ideas. Are you willing to learn? Are you capable of learning?

Try not to use excuses but rather take charge and become a stronger and better man. What I hear from you is just excuses. I began my shop in a 18' by 18' garage (look at my shop photos on my profile as I have never updated them), I used a vertical cart to store up to 15 sheets of ply vertically and I stored finished product in my living room and dining room. When my 2 daughters were 2 years old and 4 years old we were a homeless family of 4 living on the street, I did not look for excuses but I looked for solutions.

I once seen an elderly man work his shop out of a 1 car garage with everything on wheels that he pushed out in the front yard to work. He did not seem to complain or find excuses.

I hear you say you cannot handle sheets in your shop, but you work in a 2 car garage? I used to only have an old Explorer with 200,000 miles that we would strap up to 5 or 6 sheets to the roof when getting material. Back then I rented trailers from time to time, I did own a trailer.

I read your posts and I don't know how to feel.



> Sure it does take more time to glue up boards, but isn t that why they came to me in the first place. Why would someone pay me a pile of money to get the same sh!t they could buy for half that at some two bit furniture store…and by two bit furniture store I mean most all furniture stores.
> 
> - RussellAP


Someone pays you a "pile of money" to make the wisest decision you can make for them. It appears the customer paying you a "pile of money" might be disadvantaged with you by their own ignorance. If this is paint grade, at the very least you should be using a paint grade maple, or if not that, then a poplar. But Pine??? All pine boards will have some knots, some more than others and that does not seem to be a wise choice of paint grade material. And going with a soft wood for anything custom such as a wall unit.

And your mathematical justification behind glueing up panels being cheaper than plywood is purely wrong. The only way that could be true is if you are in fact getting your boards for 6.00 to 8.00 per 8' X 8" board, I somehow doubt it though. But what do you think glue cost you. What about the sand paper cost related to sanding the joints smooth, how about the cost of wood putty. What about your shop hour labor cost. In your situation you must be working for $00.75 per hour to even come close to beating the cost of plywood.

We use the mess out of plywood as it is whole heatedly the best choice of product to use whenever case work is being done whether that is a kitchen, wall unit, library units, etc. It is the correct choice for either stain grade and paint grade. There are so many different plywoods on the market and some are better for different usages. Yes there are complaints we have hear and there, the top veneer is too thin… So we hunt. We look for that plywood that is better. Such as baltic birch, great stuff. I recently found a poplar ply with a thick top veneer. Then there is a type of hybrid core that has lumber core sandwiched between two fiber cores, great for case work and very flat and stable. To say one particular plywood is not good so we rule out plywood or use a blanket statement "Can't stand plywood" is every bit of ignorance and borderline stupidity when trying to build a wall unit.

Your above quoted statement seems to imply if you use a plywood you, or WE have somehow cheapened our product and made it inferior.

You also mention you have a 45 minute drive to your nearest hardwood dealer, that is actually the same amount of drive we have also and we go there several times through the course of a year. Just more excuses I suppose.

You will need to decide if you are willing to learn or if you are good with your current status and excuses.

For me, I have used a ton of plywood. Much of our work can be seen at:

http://www.houzz.com/pro/topqualitycabinets/__public
https://plus.google.com/+TopQualityCabinetsFloresville/posts?hl=en
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Top-Quality-Cabinets/135550733209609
www.topqualitycabinets.net

I would not be any where close to where we are at today by using the logic you are providing us today.


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## NoThanks (Mar 19, 2014)

Well said Jerry, I personally couldn't agree with you more.


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## SuperCubber (Feb 23, 2012)

+1 for Jerry.


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## fge (Sep 8, 2008)

Hopefully my post was more encouraging for Russell than discouraging. I had fought the urge to post on this thread because I felt I would come across as harsh.


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## rockindavan (Mar 8, 2011)

+1 Jerry 
Not sure if the op is bragging about using pine instead of ply, but don't insinuate that your work is better than 99% of the rest because you don't use plywood. Now if he had come and said "I hate particle board" he might have got more of a concensus.


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## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

> The home is climate controlled so what would the issue be about wood stability. I build outdoor furniture for half the year, believe me I know about wood stability and it s not an issue.
> 
> - RussellAP


Unless you're referring to your own home, where you have direct, personal control, the term 'climate controlled' basically means nothing(even then, it's minimal). If it did, proper joinery/construction techniques wouldn't exist.
A cardboard box with a heater inside it is 'climate controlled'.
Humidifiers, dehumidifiers, furnaces, baseboard heating, space heaters, showers, cooking, aquariums, etc….ALL have an effect on the interior environment from one home, to the home next door. Some are minimal, some quite severe. The average homeowner hasn't got a clue.
You've got a hundred plus of years of experience on this thread alone and thousands more on the rest of the board…..you've been working with wood for what now? Two or three years?

Drop your defenses and re-read this thread….then read it again. You've got a lot of damn good advice here.

Stop and listen.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

I defend the OPs right and decision to use/build his product as he or his customer sees fit but….,,

Many posts above do reflect what i believe is the best method of construction and choice of materials.

I would encourage the OP to heed the advice given here, particularly Jerry's experienced voice.


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## huff (May 28, 2009)

+1 Again for Jerry!

Russell has been given some really good advice from the above post; yet two weeks ago, he said good bye to LJ's because he felt the members no longer gave him the advice he needed????..........Sometimes you need to listen to "what you need to hear" more than "what you want to hear" !

Two years ago I sent Russell a book "How to start a woodworking business" because I wanted to help him. The last time I checked, he told me he has been too busy to read the book. I'm glad he's been that busy and wish him the best of luck with his business.


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## NoThanks (Mar 19, 2014)

When I started business (as many others here) I couldn't go to the internet and find solutions. 
Most of my lessons I learned the hard way.
A lot of things I did wrong and got away with, but also, a lot of things I had to go to school on.
I guess if you ignore the internet as a learning tool you will eventually get there, but there will probably be a lot more school lessons along the way.
I wish I would have had a caring community that was willing to help me as I was growing. 
You know how the saying goes When your seventeen you know everything, and can't be told anything. 
Eventually you come around, hopefully it's not at a great cost.

Looking at Russells facebook page, it's obvious he has a future woodworking, he has shown some wonderful tables and such, I don't know why he hasn't posted them for all of us to see his talent.


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## CTW (Oct 24, 2014)

One thing for sure about this thread - I am learning AND I do have much to learn. I knew when I commented back near the beginning that I should not hit send because of my ignorance - but my poor sense got the better of me. I for one appreciate all the hard earned knowledge flowing through here. Thank you.

CTW


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

You bring up a good point: Many of us have gotten into the habit of stopping at the "one size fits all" stores, like Loweds and Home Depot. It's easy to fall into that habit. For example, for me, it's an hour to and from town. So running all over the "big" cities, especially when there are several matters to tend to, can be a real nuisance.

A friend picked up a piece of 3/4 AC for me. He gave only $25.00. The same thing at Lowes or the Depot would have been about $35.00. For five more, I could have their cabinet grade stuff.

Too, if I go in another compass direction, instead of around $11.00 a bf for oak, I can get it at a wholesaler (S2S1E) for around $3.80.

In short, we need to remember to look around.



> For who ever said it was cheaper to use plywood, The plywood at Lowes for this job would run me $50 a sheet and I d have to have Lowes cut it for me because I can t handle a 4×8 sheet. Just too heavy and if you drop it on a corner, it s ruined. Using 6 and 10 pine 1×8 s is much more economical. I glue up just what I want and if something happens to it, I can rip the bad piece out and put in another for very little. The depth on these pieces is not all that much, so I rarely have to glue up more than three boards to make a side. The backs are plywood, but that is all.
> 
> - RussellAP


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

There is just something about making a project out of solid wood that draws me to it, from time to time.

On the extreme of the other end, it's obvious only a few would claim their particleboard creation would reach the level of an heirloom/museum piece (though I have seen otherwise remarkable, and successful, craftsmen make that claim).

In the middle, there are millions of pieces of of furniture built with plywood and veneer resting in homes that cost as much to maintain as I spent on mine, or that may be found in museums. And there are my kitchen cabinets.

Building my twenty-three kitchen and dine room cabinets from solid wood would be impractical for several reasons, including cost, stability, and labor (I did opt for plywood, rather than particleboard).

So, as they say, it's all good.


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## mojapitt (Dec 31, 2011)

I don't buy a lot of my wood. Simply because of my type of business. Made from scratch from wood I cut myself. That being said, I will +1 Jerry's comments also. I rule nothing out regardless of the fact I work out of a 2 stall garage. I do use plywood for some things because it is a better choice for the customer. The only thing I try to avoid at all is MDF. I do not use MDF for anything unless it's requested. I never suggest it because I have no faith in it.


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## mojapitt (Dec 31, 2011)

I see LJ huff posted here. Along with Jerry's comments, everyone should read his blogs on running a woodworking business. It's one of my go to's for running mine.


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## RussellAP (Feb 21, 2012)

The two middle cabinets will be made with 3/4 birch ply. Just finished one up today. I'm waiting on the wood filler to dry so I can paint it. Between the wainscotting and the ply I already have too much scrap though. I think I'll just throw the stuff under a foot in the bed of my truck and haul it off to the dump. Shop is seriously crowded and these middle cabinets are 57" wide which makes it really hard to deal with in a shop with a lower ceiling and every woodworking tool known to man in it. 
I think I'll be more judicious from now on with the size of the commission piece, at least till I can afford a bigger shop. 
On the up side, I'll be talking to a restaurant owner next week about making a sh!t load of tables for his new restaurant. It sounds like he wants rustic bench type seating and tables so this might be the one that puts me on the map. The upside is that I might be able to use the restaurant to as a shop instead of hauling everything back to my garage. I just hope his time table is out there a couple months so I can complete it all before he opens.

I admit, there is a lot that I don't know about running a business like this, it's trail and error plus you can't afford to turn much down. This time of year is hard to get business in, and in a couple months I'll be back on outdoor furniture again. Last year I made about three dozen Adirondack chairs and loveseats and I expect this year to be even better. I just wish I had more room. It's frustrating.


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## fge (Sep 8, 2008)

When you have scraps do your best to keep them. If you must get rid of them look at maybe donating them for others near by who like to tinker with wood. As a last resort just dump them if you have to.

You should not have to much in the way of scrap as most dimensions calculated should be done with a sheet 48" by 96" in mind. A book shelf or upper cabinet should be 12" deep, or 1/4 of the sheet ripped. The base cabinet is typically 24" deep or 1/2 of the sheet ripped. The base of a wall unit can vary though. I would always attempt to keep my dimensions within a multiple of 48". If a customer insist on dimensions that create more waste then additional cost should be applied to cover the cost of the extra material / waste you might have. Like I had a customer who wanted 15" deep upper cabinets throughout the kitchen and 15 / 48 leaves me 3". Plus more sheets were required thus the reason to charge more.

At the end of the day you just need to charge adequately enough to cover all of your sheet/material cost, nest your parts appropriately and then handle the scrap as efficiently as you can. If you have charged enough to cover all of the material required and you have made the best use of the material, then the scraps should not be an issue to you.


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## fge (Sep 8, 2008)

Odd sizes can also be put into nailers, stretchers, toe kicks, etc… You might need some of those scraps here or there during installation. Maybe cut some of your scraps into strips of 3" wide for use on other projects.

Take into consideration the length of a sheet also at 96" and try to work with multiples of 96. Like with a 36" tall counting counter top, one could do a detached toe and net 6 cabinet sides out of one sheet with minimal loss. With a wall unit there is not toe kick, but there is a base board area, say 4" tall or so. Behind that FF member at the bottom you could have installed a detached base. Not sure if any of this makes sense or not.


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## NoThanks (Mar 19, 2014)

I commend you Jerry, but I feel your wasting your time. 
He just don't get it. Doubt he ever will, he's already the best there is. I mean he has a shop with every tool know to mankind….but can't handle a sheet of plywood.


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## Mustang67 (Feb 22, 2014)

Hmm every tool known to man. That would be cool, but then I couldn't fit a sheet of plywood in my garage either. But it would be nice to say I need a ….. and know it was in the garage (but probably couldn't find it). OK, not constructive.

I always enjoy reading LJ posts for good ideas and advice. Seems to me the question was asked about the preference for using plywood, the answer given, and then dismissed. If you don't want to hear other opinions, then why ask the question?


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## Tennessee (Jul 8, 2011)

What I hate is when someone cops out and subs in plywood in what should be an otherwise nice, upscale project. At a local auction the other night, I landed two cool older jewelry boxes for my wife for $2 each. The handmade one had a flame maple top, walnut body and trays, and a plywood bottom on both trays and box. ARGH… She wants me to take it apart, remove the ply, replace the plywood with walnut and refinish it.

On the other hand, I landed a truckload of free 3/4 Baltic birch ply cutoffs from a cabinet shop that went out of business. Some of these were almost 4'X4', but most were 1-2 foot wide, 3-4 foot long. They work great for drawer sides, jigs, and many other items.
One day, I got an idea to glue up about eight of the 12" X 12" squares. I planed them lightly to get fresh wood and glued it up, put it on the lathe and made a huge popcorn bowl out of plywood. Filled some of the end grain on the plywood and coated it in food safe water based poly, and took it to my museum gallery. It lasted less than ten minutes, as while I was still talking to the gallery manager, a lady walked in and asked how much it was and bought it on the spot.

Plywood is a money saver, more stable, and a reasonable alternative to solid wood in many, many situations. But it also can be detrimental to the final look, and in a lot of cases is seen as a cop-out on quality. It is up to the builder, and where and whom will use the final product.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

I always thought the bottom of a jewelry box should be covered with felt or velvet. Much easer than taking a box apart and refinishing it.

Just hope she doesn't start looking at the bottoms in your kitchen and furniture drawers. Those are probably some kind of sheet goods unless you made them your self. You could be a very busy guy.


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## exelectrician (Oct 3, 2011)

Russel it seems you have taken a stick to a hornets nest, and the stingers are out!!

Really good quality ply - the kind that hurts your pocket at the store, but man, when you get into it at the shop, the cost vanishes like vapor….


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## jacksteel (Jan 10, 2015)

Yea I just found out there are special router bits that are the TRUE actually size of today plywood. Slightly small than what the specs say. They are making the plywood thinner today to say some money


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## fge (Sep 8, 2008)

S.

Accidentally posted. Ooops.

How's progress coming along Russel


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## RussellAP (Feb 21, 2012)

Thanks for all the comments. I have found that plywood is a lot more manageable if you have the store cut it for you close to the size you need. It's easier to handle without damaging it. I'm pretty good at cutting a straight line with a good saber saw and a guide rail so I can finish cutting to size. I'll likely still opt to use panels of glued up material for widths under 18" or so when appearance is important.

I did stir up a nest of hornets but only one person got blocked for just being nasty to everyone. Iwud4u won't be making any more comments on my site.

Jerry. Thanks for your advice. I am trying my best but I constantly have to fight my own work area. I need to have a couple days where I can remove everything from the shop and clean it and reorganize it for a better work flow. Too much cut off material and rarely used tools in the way. An 8' sheet of plywood just wont last long unless I use it quickly.

Again, thank you all for you comments and I hope everyone still remains friends.


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## RussellAP (Feb 21, 2012)

By the way, here is the finished product. The customers love it.


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