# Please kill the "hand plane of your dreams" thread.



## KenBry (Sep 13, 2011)

I am asking that this thread get killed. There is so much off topic conversation in it that it's crazy. To much off topic postings should kill any thread becasue that thread has no real purpose anymore.

Guys, if you want to BS and shoot the shyt, please do it in an area that it's appropriate.

JMHO…. Flame suit on.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

It's real simple, Ken. Don't click on it and it won't chafe you like panties that are too tight.


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## ShaneA (Apr 15, 2011)

Really? You are joking right? I will assume you are.


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## saddletramp (Mar 6, 2011)

Ken, there are a bunch of us that really enjoy that thread and as whole, we do no harm. As Al said, if it bothers you, don't go there but please, don't mess with our enjoyment.


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## renners (Apr 9, 2010)

What happened to live and let live?


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## Brit (Aug 14, 2010)

Ken, I agree that the thread is pretty unique in that it has gone on for so long and yes, sometimes we do stray off topic a bit. However, I don't think a day has gone by when someone hasn't posted something about hand planes. Those of us who are regulars on the thread have forged some tight friendships along the way and we've got to know each other in a way that doesn't tend to happen in other posts. I for one have learnt an enormous amount about hand planes of all shapes and sizes and most of it, I couldn't have read in a book.

I agree with Al. If people don't appreciate it, they don't have to click on it. There's room for everyone.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

I quit following that thread months ago.

Oddly enough, I have never once had a problem not clicking on it.


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## jusfine (May 22, 2010)

I don't recall seeing you post questions or opinions or answers there, Ken, but I may be mistaken.

I would welcome you to learn something about handplanes there through the process, and if you know more than the rest of us, please come and share…

For some of us who love handplanes, and who are working on purchasing the handplanes of our dreams, it is a welcome place to start when we come to Lumberjocks!

Like every extended conversation, some stray a bit, but do you stop talking?

I have met quite a few people on this thread that I may not have met otherwise, and see no reason to close it down.

Other than you don't like some of what you say is off topic,* what really is the issue*?


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## patron (Apr 2, 2009)

i've never been on any work site in 50+ years
where getting to know and have fun with fellow workers 
was not the norm
this isn't a monestary
where we are all sworn to silence

as inteligent and creative people
we like to share ideas and methods

but getting to know your fellow craftsmen 
can lead to many ways to bond

in my shops and job sites
the only rule we had was
'NO MOMS'
(lest you get a 2×4 upside the head)

don't like it
don't click it

simple


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## jusfine (May 22, 2010)

Well said, David. Thank you. Need we say more?


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## Dcase (Jul 7, 2010)

Ken, you say the thread is off topic and has no purpose anymore… I was just reading the recent post on there and they are all on the topic of hand planes. In fact if you read the post from today you will actually learn some stuff about the history of wood and metal planes.

Ehhh forget it… Your just looking for attn.

See ya


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## saddletramp (Mar 6, 2011)

:




"Why can't everybody else leave everybody else alone."


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## JohnMeeley (Jan 5, 2012)

Hmmmm… wow…. really?

Been there, read some of it. Don't recall running from the room screaming.

But I'm going there now.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

There is a lot of good information in that thread, however, the way is has rambled on and on and far off topic, makes getting to that useful information next to impossible and/or a useless task. Kind of like having all the words in a dictionary in the first half of the book and all the definitions in the second half of the book and without an index to guide you. My 2-cents…


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## StumpyNubs (Sep 25, 2010)

*I think we should ask that THIS thread be killed because it is about wood planes in the non-shop talk forum! *There's so much talk about planes on here it's crazy!

I love you like a fat guy loves sausages & cheese, but I had to give my head a shake when I saw this one…


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## KenBry (Sep 13, 2011)

Actually I tried using that thread to learn about planes. Unfortunatly it's so full of other non plane material it got frustrating so I gave up. And that was over SEVERAL attempts and hours. I didn't just do a quick look and quit.

The only thing I can suggest is try looking at things from a different point of view, Try searching this sight for info on Planes and see how much of it is in that thread and hard to find.

I use forums like this to gain information on the hobby. If friend ships form great but 9000 posts???? seriously that's allot of fluff. Try reading that thread…. From the begining to now… You better have some spare time on your hands. Because there is allot of wasted space in it.

However I see allot of you don't get the idea of what I am talking about and care to take this to a level it wasn't meant to go. Have a nice day.


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## KenBry (Sep 13, 2011)

Oh and if there is great info on Metals and other topics then they should be afforded their own topic. Not buried in a 9K posted thread. JMHO


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## BrandonW (Apr 27, 2010)

I admit, about 10% is off topic, but rest of the time it's just plane talk. Granted, not all the planes are "Planes of your dreams" but it's where most of us go to talk about the subject. Yes if you're looking for an introduction to hand planes, you'd probably want to go somewhere else because that's not the point of the thread.


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## KenBry (Sep 13, 2011)

Take this as my last suggestion on the subject, Since the subjct is so popular create a sup topic under hand tools for Planes. I would love to see that info that is valuable in that thread broken down into easily searched data for noobs like me.

Brandon, go through the last 50 posts, count how many are relevent to the topic start title and give me your percentage again.


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## StumpyNubs (Sep 25, 2010)

*I just counted…* before your comments caused the discussion over there to center on this thread, 45 of the last 50 posts were directly related to hand planes, and the rest were light comments made by those who were otherwise also engaged in a hand plane discussion.

*Do we seriously need to force "fairness" into every aspect of our lives?* Life isn't fair, sports aren't fair, the amount of money I make is hardly fair. How many posts the hand plane thread gets as compared some other thread is SO at the bottom of my list of things I think need to be made right in the world…


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## KenBry (Sep 13, 2011)

Stumpy, it's about trying to find info on hand planes, not numbers of posts. I don't care if a post has 100,000 posts as long as it all is part of that subject and applies great, but if it is that long there is allot of wasted info that will never be truelly searchable and found.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

I check into that thread every day. AND, IF you were to look, I DO post things about the handplanes I use, and re-hab. One CAN find info about almost any handplane that was ever made. Really, the thread is like the old "Gossip Fence" of old, where the "Gossip" is usually about handplanes, including HOW to find a handplane.

I think if there is a thread that needs "Killt" it would be a narrow-minded one like this one.


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## davidmw (Feb 9, 2011)

Not to get off topic here, but who is everyone hoping will be the next president and why?


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

Ken, I can appreciate that your query in that particular forum thread got lost. I too, have asked questions there only to get it brushed aside and buried under the frenzied conversation and shear volume of posts.

Rather than campaign against it, I would suggest starting your own topic regarding your plane questions. I wouldn't begrudge anyone else having a lively conversation on thier own topic, even if my own query may overlap some. What is the point?

You obviously know how to post a new topic, I am just wondering why this thread topic isn't about your plane question instead of campaigning to take away others' enjoyment of a thread.


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## KenBry (Sep 13, 2011)

You have got to be kidding me, you guys are talking about this thread on that thread… and you are being insulting on top of it. Sigh…. I have nothing to say…. Thanks for being so kind Have a great day. I hope your truley happy with the way you all have acted on the matter.


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## ShaneA (Apr 15, 2011)

Here is the irony…if you ever wanted to know something about planes, you could ask there on the forum. There are several people with the knowledge and kindness to answer questions. While searching for info could be daunting, they are open to questions, and will answer with respect and patience. That has been my experience, the biggest concern to have is how much money it costs, once bitten! I think I understand your point, but feel free to ask questions on LJs. There are a lot of hand tool lovers who would love to spread the info. However, I love that thread and would appreciate it if you would not worry about what we do or say, because we are not hurting anybody. Respectfully.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

What a little person. Ken doesn't want to participate but wants to make sure we make it easy for him to learn from what we talk about. Ken, many of us have more post on that thread than you do this site.

I might mention I don't get mad very often, and this will be the first time on LJs.


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## StumpyNubs (Sep 25, 2010)

*Ken*- I see your point about it being difficult to find specific info on that thread, and if all the hand plane info goes onto just that thread, it may get lost. Fair enough.

But, in my experience, when people have a question that they can't find an answer to easily, they just post a thread asking for the info, and they get the info they want.

And after all, isn't the purpose of an online woodworking community to allow people to have enjoyable discussions about woodworking? This site isn't just an encyclopedia, it's a social site for woodworkers. They are enjoying themselves over in that there, talking about hand planes. Why try and shut that down?


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Geez… And I thought politics was a partisan topic!


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

So, that means YOU are free do use the same type of response?


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

OK 'bandit', so YOU think it is OK to RESTRICT/HIDE woodworking information on a woodworking website? And I suppose that YOU TOO think that Ken "is a little person" simply for questioning what is going on?


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

LOL<lol><lol><lol><roflmao>s Mister Bandit to you, son.


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## HamS (Nov 10, 2011)

It is a lttle daunting to find things in the plane thread, but I have asked questions and NEVER been beliitled because the answer was always in a previous post, someone just posted the link and I got my question answered. It would be nice if it was a little easier to search, but that is not a reason to kill the thread, or the saw thread, or God Forbid, Stumpy's tubafore thread. It is kind of like we have five or six village centers and we congregate in the coffee shop we find gemultlich but can always walk over to the other shop. This is what makes Lumber Jockin' so fun.


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

Oh boy. I am patiently awaiting the Please kill the 'Please kill the "hand plane of your dreams" thread' thread thread.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

"THEY CALL ME…..."

71-72 MACV, 72-75IRR ( Ist LT), 75-96 National Guard, 96-present Retired Reserves. BTDT. Last time I went hunting, the "Prey" could (and did) shoot back.

As for this "Kill this thread BS", We used to say "Don't mean nothing, not a thing!"


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## StumpyNubs (Sep 25, 2010)

Who's "restricting" or "hiding" anything here? The only call I see for restricting is this thread asking for another legitimate one to be closed down simply because somebody thinks there are TOO MANY comments!

It's already been demonstrated (above) that the vast majority of those comments (90%+) are directly related to woodworking (based on an actual count of the 50 comments made before this subject was started). So the only problem is, too may people are commenting on ONE thread instead of spreading the knowledge around!

*What a world we live in these days*... everything has to be fair. Everything equally distributed. Nobody can offend anyone. If one person doesn't like something, it should be shut down….

What-evs… I always try hard not to get involved, not to step on anybody's toes around here, so I'd better shut my yapper! I know you're a good guy, Mike. I'm sure you are too you Ken. Keep on keepin on… fight the power… and all that stuff…


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Stumpy SAID: "What a world we live in these days… everything has to be fair."

Well if THAT is the case, then get with the program or check out…


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

bandit SAID: ""THEY CALL ME……" "

Uh, you do know that NO ONE ever said anything like that don't you… or not. I guess you really have a hang up about this kind of stuff huh…


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Don't expect me to believe you have never heard that song before? Gene Simmons belting out " They call me the Doctor of Love"? Does that ring a bell. Or is that too off-topic for this thread, also?

Don't mean nothing, not a thing.


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## jusfine (May 22, 2010)

Isn't this a little off topic?

Come on guys, talking *songs and such* on a killing the plane thread?

Really?


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## BrandonW (Apr 27, 2010)

I'm with Randy. Let's totally kill that plane thread dead.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

The only "Robin-work" I do is for me. What others think, I couldn't care less. Actually, I am almost old enough to have driven that TV batmobile. BTW, which Don do you mean? Or, is Al, or maybe Stumpy, maybe? How about a list?

As for Handplanes in that thread you seem to hate so much:









Post one of your own….


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## superdav721 (Aug 16, 2010)

Smiling and walking to the shop…..................


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## SamuelP (Feb 26, 2011)

I think this thread is off topic.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

Let open speech continue. Sorry you didn't find the info you were looking for, Ken.


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## KenBry (Sep 13, 2011)

I had to take a breather from this thread because simply some folks where really getting downright nasty. 
#1 I am NOT a troll, I love internet forums because of the information that can be found in them.

#2 I use the search function 90% of the time to try and find data for my questions. The data in that thread has gone so far off topic it's skewed and it has been difficult to find answers.

#3 I got frustrated reading through that thread and seeing more BS than useful info. I got so frustrated I asked for it to be closed and apparently offended several people, Sorry.

#4 Since I have been using internet Forums since the days of BBS's I understand better than some that when topics get so big they Clog up good data. This has always been an issue in many of the forums I used over the last 20 years I have been using the internet. My intent was to try to help but it backfired due to my poor timing and wording.

#5 I would love to see a Plane Sub Forum, It would be a great addition to this sight and it would allow allot of good info to have a place to grow.

#6 Personal attacks have NO place in a forum. PERIOD I don't welcome them and no one should receive them.

#7 I have posted on this forum asking questions and being grateful when I received answers.

The first time I found this forum I was reading through posts of a user that had it to the end of their rope and they asked to be deleted. I nearly got to that point by a few bad apples acting like children. So I walked away for a while and cooled down. You see I like it here I get allot of great ideas and help. For the record, I appreciate and welcome constructive viewpoints.

I didn't have to come here and explain my actions or myself, I did because I in no way meant harm.

I still believe that the Topic that I started with on this thread is applicable and deserves to get shut down. This is only my opinion and no amount of abusive comments made to me, are going to change that opinion. So I am willing to agree to disagree and life can easily move ahead.


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## SamuelP (Feb 26, 2011)

When you have tried posting in the forum did you get the info you were looking for?

From my limited experience with forums the direct conversation is the meat and bones of the experience. I have never found the search button/option very helpful. The one on one interaction has always been the draw for me.

I have never been ignored or refused in any forum on this sight, specifically the forum in question.


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## SamuelP (Feb 26, 2011)

That is a SWEET 49 Smitty!


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## KenBry (Sep 13, 2011)

I really wasn't needing to ask questions as much as I was trying to read up on info pertaining to hand planes. So asking or creating a topic wasn't relivent. Does tha make sence? I only am trying to gather info on planes. That thread would be a great source. But it just…..isn't any more. Understand?


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## KTMM (Aug 28, 2009)

Wow, I thought I was good at getting this site fired up…..

Here you go









And that is my velociraptor sharpening chisels on a snapping turtles back.. 
The turtle doubles as a very good rabbet plane.


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## superdav721 (Aug 16, 2010)

.


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## KenBry (Sep 13, 2011)

Dave that list is great it deserves a sticky thread of it's own not buried in this thread.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

bandit SAID: _"As for Handplanes in that thread you seem to hate so much, ...Post one of your own…

Geez rookie, give it up already… Just sayin'...

DOCTOR HorizontalMike

BEFORE:









ALMOST:









THERE:









COMPARISON OF TYPES I OWN:
http://www.horizontalheavens.com/418vs418VBM%20Comparison.htm

AND THOSE I INHERITED AND USE MOST:
http://www.horizontalheavens.com/sargent_418_fore_plane.htm









And these…


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## tom427cid (Aug 21, 2011)

Since we are on the subject of planes-does anybody know what I have here? 
Guy walked into the shop to day and said he wanted $15 for this. Did I overpay?
tom
Thought I'd post this for all those folks that didn't get a chance to comment.
ps this ones for you DR. MIKE!!!!


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## jusfine (May 22, 2010)

Nice restore, Mike!


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Have you posted these on the handplane thread? Are you planning on building a few planes from scratch ( I have 4) or have you posted the story about that re-habbed plane of yours on that post? I am working on two more planes that I am trying to restore/improve. I'll be waiting to see your posts over at the "handplane' thread….....


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Randy,
Thanks. I used to have the 418VBM posted in 'Projects' but it got deleted. This was back when we were still trying to get hand tool restoration legitimized on LJs. We finally succeeded and you can see the results. Sure glad we can now post tool restoration 'Projects' and even have our own forum. Just wish folks would understand about organizing such threads/topics so they can be used for later research and browsing.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

kEN YOUR COMPLAINT SHOULD BE ABOUT THE POOR SEARCH METHODS ON THE LJ SITE BUT IF YOU HAD ONLY ONCE ASKED A QUESTION LIKE WHAT PLANE SHOULD A NOOB GET FIRST THESE FINE GENTLEMEN WOULD HAVE ADDRESSED YOUR QUESTION BUT KNOW YOU HAD TO ATTACK A GROUP OF THE BEST PEOPLE ON LJ THIS THREAD IS MY FAVORITE AND i DONT GIVE A DAMN WHAT mIKEY THINKS i NEVER DID CARE THATS WHY HE IS BLOCKED FROM MY THREADS

rEALLY DO YOU HAVE A QUESTION WHAT IS IT POST IT IN THE THREAD AND IT WILL GET THE ATTENTION YOU DESERVE INSTEAD OF THE WRATH OF THE PEOPLE THAT ARE HERE FOR THE BROTHERHOOD THE THREAD HAS GIVEN US


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## RGtools (Feb 18, 2011)

If someone said they wanted to shut down your favorite bar how would you react?

I simply shrug my shoulders and have a drink. You are welcome to our bar, and are certainly welcome to start your own.


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## fussy (Jan 18, 2010)

Nice restore and nice selection Mike. Tom, I'll give you $16.50 for it. Do you guys think you should be posting planes on a "kill handplanes thread" thread?

Steve


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## Dcase (Jul 7, 2010)

Ken, So your upset because you want info on hand planes and you don't like reading through the non plane talk on that topic? Why don't you do a google search for the hand plane info that your looking for? If you did a search you would still have to skim through pages and links to find the answers you were looking for.

There is nothing on that thread that you cant find somewhere else. So I don't get why you want it deleted just because you don't like having to search through it. Go search for your info somewhere else. There are plenty of hand plane books, videos and web sites where you can get your info.


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## tom427cid (Aug 21, 2011)

Hi Steve,
I posted the plane more as a gag to see if anybody was paying attention and to see if any of the Stanley experts would/could identify the plane. I truley did pay $15 for the plane-in an antique shop.I was dirty and the dealer said he could find no identifying marks on it. He did not look in the right place! The plane is a pat date 1854 Bailey. 'magine that, very little clean up required.It has a very interesting blade depthing design. First you tighten the adjusting knob(against a spring) set the blade to zero and as you release the tension this brings more of the blade to bear on the wood(deeper cut).
Just thought I'd share with the "combatants" 
tom


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## SamuelP (Feb 26, 2011)

tom427cid - I will give you 30.00 for it.

HorizontalMike - Great restore! Nice finish on the tote and knob.

KenBry - I do not understand. It seems as though we are looking to get different things out of different places. If I want info on how to do something I search projects and blogs. If I can't find it or I have something to share, or specific question that I know is not out there I go to the different forums. This site works great for that. I do not see everything as searchable, but it can all be used as a resource. You just need to understand how they work.. My opinion and view.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Hey Tom, I do NOT have anything as nice as THAT 1854 Bailey of yours. WOW!

And besides, I'm a Sargent kinda guy… *;-)*


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## StumpyNubs (Sep 25, 2010)

*EVERYBODY WHO'S SKIVIES ARE IN A WAD, PLEASE READ THIS:*

I see Ken's point… but only to a point…

*Yes*, the Hand plane thread has become big. And it has become "the place" for posting hand plane related material. Lots of times I see somebody ask a question about hand planes and everybody tells him to go to the hand plane thread. And lots of times I see someone post some hand plane related info and people ask him to post it on the hand plane thread. That thread has become sort of official, and Ken is saying that it sucks up all the hand plane info on the site so that anyone that wants such info HAS to sift through that thread.

*No*, that doesn't mean it should be killed. Here's why: Ms Debbie has made several efforts to create official threads here on LJ's to consolidate info. There is a favorite finish thread, a favorite type of wood thread, etc. Those threads are seen as a good thing by LJs management and its never been seen as detrimental to the site.

*Maybe *the hand plane thread has some fluff on it. But I have personally read large sections of it, and I find it very easy to skim through any fluff without it bothering me. What I do find are THOUSANDS of useful posts on there, full of insights, photos, experiences, tips and everything else. It's a hand plane lover's paradise. But it is NOT an encyclopedia. Message boards are never encyclopedias, they are communities of people, and people like to chit chat off topic. It's the nature of message boards. I actually think the hand plane thread has amazingly little off topic content for such a large thread.

*So*, let's not try and make something out of this that isn't possible to create. If you want a serious, no fluff source on hand planes, you need a book or dedicated blog. You can't find it, or force it to exist on a message board.

*Finally*, I didn't notice any "nasty personal attacks" directed at Ken, but I am sorry if he felt attacked, especially if any of MY comments made him feel that way. I DID see some nasty comments directed at those who opposed Ken's stance on this issue. Regardless, after Ken's last post (#46) it is clear that the biggest problem here is a poorly chosen title for this thread. It was BOUND to stir up some problems. So, let's agree to disagree, and let THIS thread die.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

Because I have all kinds of serious eye issues, I can skim … occasionally … and SOME things, but cannot just READ.

Meaning: I've totally ignored the hand plane thread. My loss.

I'm interested in planes, but my limitations mean that … that thread will never really be a resource for ME, the way that this site is. I don't even know what I don't know, so … phrasing Google searches, to gain productive answers FROM that thread … isn't practical.

Instead, I bought a used copy of the LN book, and … as my eyes permit … I look at a page or two.










I don't actually care, one way or the other, about the hand plane thread (stay or go), but … for my own reasons … I haven't been able to access it.

Which … I feel … is my loss.


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## tom427cid (Aug 21, 2011)

Mike,
I suppose of all the planes I sorta collect(unofficially)Sargents.I have one that is the same size as a #2 and while the differences are subtle and very minor,to me,I like it much better than a Stanley.Still looking for a body for a VBM 714.Clumsy me,I knew it would fall,and it did.Broke right at the throat.Someday I want to find their multi-plane.They made two,one like the 45 and the other similar to the 55.
Here are my Sargents.
tom


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

*Stumpy SAID: Finally, I didn't notice any "nasty personal attacks" directed at Ken, but I am sorry if he felt attacked. *

How about THIS from Don. Sounds rather personal to me.

*DON W post #26:
"What a little person. Ken doesn't want to participate but wants to make sure we make it easy for him to learn from what we talk about. Ken, many of us have more post on that thread than you do this site.
I might mention I don't get mad very often, and this will be the first time on LJs."*

Stumpy, From the reaction of those in the 'Handplanes of your Dreams' topic, THEY are as much OR MORE partisan than either the Right or Left regarding politics. I see NO cooperation in finding a solution to the difficulties of such a massive thread.

All I see is a 'leave us the hell alone' attitude from these HOYD folks. Stumpy, it sure appears that it is YOURs (as well as DonW, bandit, etc.) skivie's that are in a wad.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Yeah Tom, I just have these Sargents:

#418-handed down from my GG-father

#418VBM-that I picked up from eBay

#422 (early Type II, narrow body and a thin foot for frog)-another eBay find.

I would really LOVE to have a 402 or 403… some day. *;-)*


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## JGM0658 (Aug 16, 2011)

Jezzz..you guys are merciless….you are making this another plane thread..LOL….


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

We brought the grandkids to an event at the Children's Museum for the day. Overheard from some nutcase woman there: What's with all these kids screaming and running around? Why is there so many of them here, anyway?"


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## superdav721 (Aug 16, 2010)

what Hand Tool Web Information do you use?


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## Dcase (Jul 7, 2010)

Mike, aren't you the one who started a topic on how you wanted all the LJ bulling to stop?

I saw this post you made…

WHAT THE HELL KIND OF COMMENT IS THAT?! Heaven forbid that someone might want to research woodworking on a WOODWORKING WEBSITE! Get off your high horse and off that damn Harley, you have NOT earned it. You sir, are an ass.

Don's post had nothing to do with you and was not in anyway directed towards you yet you couldn't help but post a reply telling him to get off that damn Harley and calling him an ass?

For someone who is so anti bulling I find it funny that you have no problem joining in a heated topic and throwing out insults at people.

You also said this a few post back

From the reaction of those in the 'Handplanes of your Dreams' topic, THEY are as much OR MORE partisan than either the Right or Left regarding politics. I see NO cooperation in finding a solution to the difficulties of such a massive thread.

In your post to end bulling, wasn't it political stuff that was upsetting you? So whats up with comparing us to Right and Left? Why do you have to even make that kind of remark?

As for you not seeing any cooperation in finding a solution to the difficulties of the massive thread…. There are no difficulties in which need to be solved.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Well now, look at the pot calling the kettle Black. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, LOL, LMAO!


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

bandit,
And your point is…? Or are you just as partisan as Danny boy here about 'no problem here, move along now, no problem here'...? You guys really do make my point for me, with little effort on my part. Geez…

So what have you offered up as a solution to the issue of difficulty in searching/indexing such a large nondescript forum topic?


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

I usually just take my time and LOOK things up, not that hard to do, afterall.

As for this "thread", I just come here for the BELLY LAUGHS you always bring to a post. LOL!!!!!!!


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Let's see, I sitting here after a long night at work, listening to a TROLL telling me I came up "empty"? If not a TROLL, then maybe a "Devil's Advocate" for any post out there in need? Normally, I'm polite, but after 12 hours at work, on 2 hours sleep, "polite" done flew out the window. Go charge some other " Windmill", Don Mikey, This windmill couldn't care less.

Say Good Night, Gracie. "Good Night, Gracie"


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

bandit, are you going to invoke Godwin's Law next? Just wondering…

How about solutions and not name calling huh…


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

If the existence of the Handplanes of Your Dreams thread is really bothering you, ask Martin or another administrator to move it to the Non-Shop-Talk Forum. Blur out the title, title it anything you like; I'm certain none of the regulars will care and I'll help in any way I can. Start a new thread with strict rules about topic and tagging. 
.
It reminds me of a kid who wants to play baseball with the other kids. They welcome him into the game with open arms; offer to help his pitching and hitting. But he's having none of it; goes home to his parents and asks to have the park closed for baseball games.
.
Start your own game, man.


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

The handplane thread is iconic. It is huge (and cumbersome) ONLY because it has been (and continues to be) so popular. The name "of your dreams" spawned a few off-shoots as well that are more popular than most posts. When something is that popular, leave it alone !

One of my favorite forums has a search feature that cuts through the banter if one chooses to go straight for the search string post (as opposed to the thread). When you search, you enter your search phrase string of words, then click either to show the threads or the actual posts that include the string.

Maybe Lumberjocks could / should upgrade to that…


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Al, the information that passes through the HOYD is quite useful and informative. It is just not very assessable and many topics (this type plane or that plane type, etc) go unnoticed by most on LJs because of not being labeled, and/or topics of there own that can be or are listed under the Tools Forum.

*Even something as simple as forum topics such as:*
Stanley Planes
Sargent Planes
Record Planes
Bailey Planes
Etc.

This would help all involved and offer motivation for other LJs to consider using hand planes. But then again, if the point is to NOT be helpful then carry on…


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## StumpyNubs (Sep 25, 2010)

*Sounds great, Mike.* I think you should be the one to start those threads. Then everybody will be happy. It's a good compromise, there can be a better organized system, and those who like the comradery of the Hand Plane Of Your Dreams thread can stay where they are and discuss "hand planes of their dreams", which was the original intent, I suspect, instead of worrying about making a database of info. If they have something specific to share about a particular hand plane type, they are free (if they are so inclined) to also post it on one of those threads you mentioned.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

*if the point is to NOT be helpful then carry on*
C'mon, Mike, where you aimin'? You call people out on those semantic somersaults with vigor. I challenge you to find an example in that thread where a barrier to helpfulness was intentionally erected. When a repository of information has outgrown its structure, the OP suggests the respository should be destroyed or "killed"? C'mon man, you can't support that line of thinking. Ain't befitting. If you can think of a way to make the material more readily accessible, I'm sure everyone's all ears. If you believe it only to be a place to "BS and shoot the shyt" per OP, then we'll all ask for it to moved to the Non-Shop-Talk-Forum where tools are available to shield sensitive eyes from inflammatory subject line content. Why can't everyone just share the field? I mean seriously, why's it got to be like this?


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## StumpyNubs (Sep 25, 2010)

*Al-* It's easy enough to move to the "non-shoptalk" forum. All you have to do is click 'edit" and change the forum it's in.

BUT… I don't think it belongs in the non-shoptalk section. It is virtually ALL shop talk on there and it is right in the place it belongs. I think moving it would start a bad precedent. Leave it there and those who don't like it are free to go to one of the threads Mike is about to start.

I'm a regular peacemaker! I should get a Nobel Prize just like Jimmy Carter did!

Here's something to do that will cheer us up...


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Al,
So where did you get the idea that *"I"* don't like the HOYD thread/topic? To think that is BS. And where the hell did I say ANYTHING about rules and regulations? Geez… what a load of crap. I have posted my ideas on this thread just as you and others have, well some are just interested in attacking my person, but other than that, you can NO SOONER group me with the OP than I can group you, Stumpy, etc. with the OP and the OP's intentions. How quickly you forget who originally helped lead the fight for the inclusion of hand plane restorations in projects and general hand tool acknowledgement on LJs. 
http://lumberjocks.com/topics/25501

I offered a suggestion to be helpful and to make hand plane information MORE available, valuable, and visible on LJs and all I got was personal crap for suggesting anything. Consider that more forum topics on the various hand planes would make these hand tools much more obvious and build our case for an entire FORUM dedicated to Hand Tools (old and new alike) on the LumberJocks website. FWIW, try something novel-read and think about the 'suggestion' I posted and NOT just about who posted it.

And Stumpy… should I patronize you as well? Just sayin'...


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

I suggest that Mike goes over to Saw Mill Creek, and peruses the "Hand Tool Forum in place there. They also have a "Off Topic Forum" so mike can be free to say whatever he wants on whatever subject he wants to.

Now THERE is a "solution" for Mike.


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## Viking (Aug 26, 2009)

Once again …............. Until we all give up and say "Yes HMike, you are right …. You are always right" there will be NO PEACE on this thread.

A reasonable suggestion was made for HMike to start the specific plane brand threads HE SUGGESTED himself. But that idea seems to upset him?

The only downside of him starting these threads is that all of us he has BLOCKED,for offering a position / opinion counter to his agenda on his other posts, will not be allowed to participate in what could / should be very interesting to many of us.

Hmmmmmmm? Maybe a new forum called "I have been blocked by HORIZONTAL MIKE"


> ?


 Naw, would probably jam the LJ server?

My two cents worth.


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## StumpyNubs (Sep 25, 2010)

You don't want people to argue with you. Now you don't want people to agree with you? Patronizing? I give up, Mike…


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

So bandit, Rick, Stumpy,... none of you have any ideas or positive ideas to deal with a concern from the OP?

You just want to play in my sandbox and throw sand huh…


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## Viking (Aug 26, 2009)

That's the point HMIKE, it wasn't your sandbox. It was KenBry's thread and you decided to, once again, swoop in like a big seagull and crap all over it!

If you want brand specific plane threads / posts / reviews / forums, start them or (here's my positive idea) go to another site where your BS may

My opinion only.


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## StumpyNubs (Sep 25, 2010)

I never threw any sand at you ,Mike. THAT'S the problem! You are so anxious to argue you are willing to just make stuff up!

We HAVE offered some very constructive solutions:

1. If you don't like the thread, ignore it. Lj's is full of threads with hand plane info.
2. If you are afraid it sucks up all the hand plane info from the site, start a new thread to and make it better.
3. If you want a more organized way to have hand plane info on LJ's, start several threads like those you suggested.

Yet you continue to say we offer nothing? Just because you keep repeating it, doesn't make it true.

*Have you noticed that this thread has become an empty room with one guy standing in it calling out for someone to please come argue with him. It's gotten a little sad.* I was your last supporter, even if I was not supporting everything you said. But with post #88, 5 hours ago, you even lost me. Now it's just you.

I suspect you will now repeat the same tired things again… but you will now be saying them to yourself. I'm not coming back to even read it any more. It's just getting to sad to watch this meltdown any longer…


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

I'm waiting for Mikey's "Lap Dog"......(you know who) to come to his rescue, like he alway's does when Mikey runs his mouth off and continues to show his lack of respect for others and a disregard of civil discussion.
Some things never change.
And Mikey has the gall to state I never get suspended for all the statements I have made.
Go to his home page and page through all his posts. 90% are political rants, and baiting others on legitimate topics, so as to start flaming wars.
Everyone is on to you Mikey.
You"re the LJ "jester of pointless rhetoric." 
"Just sayin"


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## Viking (Aug 26, 2009)

Jim C , Stumpy …... Well said!

Like Stumpy ….......... I too am …........... Out of here!


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

Congratulations Viking
You too will be a part of Mikey's "Blocked" list.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

KenBry's original post was clear in it's position: 'to much off topic postings' and 'no real purpose' to the Handplanes of your Dreams thread anymore. Let's review:

- since the original post, Stumpy counted 45 of 50 consecutive, recent posts that were handplanes-of-your-dreams related
- a recent post on another thread I was browsing stated, paraphrasing, the handplanes thread was insanely focused compared to the one this poster was a regular on
- and purpose? yes, it serves a purpose. it may not be the one KenBry has in mind, but (respectfully) that's not a problem that needs to be solved because not every thread is relevant or 'purposeful' to every lumberjock

From that original post, the 'point' of the original post morphed into a discussion of the 'searchability' of lengthy threads on lumberjocks. Simply put, killing the Handplanes thread isn't going to instantly make it's content searchable. And the Handplanes thread is not alone in being lengthy, or (at times) off-topic, or rambling, or even difficult to read. Unless those tenets are in the site's rulebook and universally enforced, there isn't a problem with the Handplanes thread that needs to be solved. Or argued over.


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## tom427cid (Aug 21, 2011)

@#%(^dd&*()&)" Ah HELL why bother?
tom


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

*I *SAID THEY are as much OR MORE partisan than either the Right or Left regarding politics. Boy you sure like to take things out of context!
.
And where did I suggest that you didn't LIKE the thread. You clearly expressed that you simply don't like the people IN the thread (see above). I also fail to see where I unfairly grouped you with the OP. I took your suggestion seriously and posted as such in the "other" thread. I just don't have the energy to be your next whipping boy. Best of luck with your cause(s).


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

*FIRST AL SAID: "And where did I suggest that you didn't LIKE the thread."*

*AL ANSWERED HIS OWN QUESTION: "If the existence of the Handplanes of Your Dreams thread is really bothering you,..."*

*AL SAID: "You clearly expressed that you simply don't like the people IN the thread (see above)"*

Uh Al, where did I ever say THAT? I do say that they(those in this thread who are posting in defense of HOYD) are way more partisan, and this is being repeatedly evidenced by all the ganging on above. So just who is the whipping boy here?

*AL SAID: "I took your suggestion seriously and posted as such in the "other" thread."*

You did NO SUCH THING. The only related post by YOU is criticizing LJs administrators:
AL: "Martin might have some good ideas. I hope you don't expect any thanks from those guys. *That doesn't work into their victimization model."*
At least @Smitty was *thinking* about the issue, and I thank @Smitty for taking the time to do so.

FWIW, I have NEVER called for any regulations, I have NEVER called for any new rules. I offered a way to make hand planes more visible as hand tools to the general LumberJocks population *in order to promote the use* of hand tools.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

*Martin might have some good ideas.*
I stand by that. You're not the site owner, Mike. You don't get to make or enforce the rules.
Petition the site administrators to make you a moderator. Then you'll have some credibility and authority.
You can delete any opposing views and opinions.
Until then, you're just embarrassing yourself. I mean this very sincerely.
And although I may not know much about the crab nebula, I'm hardly unarmed.
You have yourself become the biggest problem on this site, in my opinion.
I'm still allowed to have an opinion, last I checked.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

*You have yourself become the biggest problem on this site, in my opinion.*

Well said Bertha. Many will agree with this.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

Hey, what's the difference between a *Harley* and a *Hoover*?
.
.
.
.
.
The location of the *Dirt-Bag*!


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Someone can go on tilting at any "windmill" he sees, without me to act as his Sancho. On my way out the door of this mess of a thread, I will salute the FLAG.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)




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## saddletramp (Mar 6, 2011)

All right children, lets agree to disagree and let it go at that!


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## superstretch (Jan 10, 2011)




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## bigkev (Mar 16, 2011)

I think it's pretty cool that Al's thread has gotten almost 10K responses. So what if it gets a little off-topic from time to time - it's 10K posts! I plan on sitting down next week on vacation and reading every one of them. Like a novel! I hope there's a race to get to 10K for you Al. You should offer a Holtey A1 to the 10,000th poster!

I also think that it's time to ignore the ass that's trying to cause everyone problems. If we all ignore it, it will go away. I truly believe that.


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

I propose that both camel toes and moose knuckles be banned from our wholesome site. They are both a waste of really good coffee.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

My only embarrassment is for those who continue the personal attacks. But I do understand what you are trying to do. You all are trying to make this thread look so bad as to be deleted. I am NOT offended by this, and I do find it quite humorous to be honest.

So I guess you all don't even understand that an index is NOT a rule, an index is NOT a regulation, nor do you all understand that I do NOT propose or support any rule OR regulation regarding hand planes.

I guess you all don't even like hand planes enough to even consider trying to promote them to the wider LumberJocks audience.

I guess you all don't even like LumberJocks at all. After all, Al openly criticized LumberJocks administration as having a "victimization model" (post #9073 in HOYD).


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

I'll let the actual site administrators decide who that comment was directed at. Curious readers are welcome to read the actual post in question below.

Here's a direct quote from Post#9073 in http://lumberjocks.com/topics/26023:

*^Smitty, I can't think of any way to make it easier to navigate. Martin might have some good ideas. I hope you don't expect any thanks from those guys. That doesn't work into their victimization model. 
.
The few times I thought about the 72, there were either none up or they were expensive buy-nows. What I can't shake is that stupid beader. I've lost on a few of them and I've had the LN in my cart more than once.

-Al, West Virginia, www.berthacombat.com*

By "those guys", Mike, I meant the OP and any supporters of the OP's suggestion to "kill" the thread. You're welcome to hypothesize whether or not I subconsciously included you in those supporters. I suggested that an actual site administrator/owner, not you or I, might be best equipped to comment about the feasibility of making the unmanageable tome more search friendly. 
.
Do you simply need to "win"? If that's the case, tell me what you'd like me to do so we can jump off this merry-go-round. Make a list of all topics that you'd like to claim victory over. I will lay myself at your feet. 
.
Comment on the Stanley 66 out of nowhere for the win!


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Al, YOU and your buddies jumped all over me for even making a suggestion that would promote hand plane information for the greater LJs population. The false accusations and names being hurled at me for even suggesting anything and you STILL think it is ME as the problem?

NONE of you could care less about making the HOYD any better or more assessable for all LJs (the sole exception being @Smitty posting ON the HOYD thread). Everyone else JUST wanted to pile on, NOTHING MORE, just pile on. Well did y'all have your fun? Like your gang-jumpin' huh…

Wake up man! You even tried to claimed that YOU took the idea TO the HOYD thread when you had NOT.


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## BUBBATAY (Jan 24, 2012)

WOULD SOMBODY PLEASE KILL THE "Please kill the "hand plane of your dreams" thread." THREAD?


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## KenBry (Sep 13, 2011)

Oh God, please Kill the Kill the Handplane of your dreams, thread. 
Seriously, This thread is a perfect example now. Off topic, people talking about things that had no place in the title. I couldn't have asked for a more perfect example of why some threads just need to be locked.

Locking a thread is a great tool, it can be done permently or short term. It keeps threads that have gotten nasty from growing to a length and people getting really testy with each other. Also Locking a thread causes growth of other topics or simlar subjects and it spreads the wealth of knowledge beyond one single place.

In this threads case… It needs to be locked and dropped since it appears to run full course.

*Oh Poopiekat, allot of people ride Harleys, not just dirtbags. *

Mike, Bertha, Stumpy, bandit, poopie and others…..I give you respectful wishes and wish you all a good day.


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## superstretch (Jan 10, 2011)

Way to play the victim..

Let me ask you.. did you go back and edit your comment or was it deleted by a moderator? You know.. the one that was quoted by Dan (other Dan)

http://lumberjocks.com/replies/384417

Just about everyone has commented on how your style of being a troll/bully to other trolls/bullies is hypocritical and only doubles the problem.

I agree with Jim C and Bertha: "You have yourself become the biggest problem on this site, in my opinion."

I think everyone can benefit from these rules to live by.


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## KenBry (Sep 13, 2011)

Dan, (Superstrech) to whom are you refering?


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## Dwain (Nov 1, 2007)

In my view, KenBry is simply enjoying the information he gets from LJ but complaining about the work he has to put forth to get it. (at least that is how I understand it.) I don't doubt your thread was based on frustration. Regardless of the reason, your post makes you look like a complaining child. Sorry, it seems that simple

by the way, before the PC police their cheif HMike chime it, I said it only seems that way. Not it is that way!

HMike, if you spent half the time actually working with moderators to change these issues you complain about as you do complaining, this board would probably be a much better place. Too bad, I am sure we will never know.


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## superstretch (Jan 10, 2011)

Ken- I was referring to Mike. Sorry for for crapping on your thread, but something had to be said. I agree that there is a lot of info there and its difficult to get into, so maybe if you're looking for specific info, you can get Bertha to find it for you. Its his fault!


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

^it's true, Dan. I am the one to blame. I carelessly started a thread a year ago asking what kind of hanplanes people would love to own. With callous disregard, I intentionally failed to embed a strict indexing structure so that future searches of a website with which I have zero administrative authority would be rendered useless. I secretly coerced members to join my growing partisan cult so that once we reached critical mass, we could injure sensitive hearts by going…..off topic. When no one was watching, we even talked about friends, family, life, and…even….laughed at times. I purposesly designed in the feature that will prevent others from starting threads about handplanes, so that I might…..wait, I didn't actually do that. Oh well, nevermind


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## Bagtown (Mar 9, 2008)

wow.

I really do know better than to come over to the dark side of the forums…
Really is hard on the BP.
Sometimes I really can't help myself.
OP -Ken- relax, and just follow along a little. You made what you thought was a reasonable suggestion, and it didn't make the cut. Oh well. Better luck next time. The guys did make a few well thought out suggestions. Try them out, and good luck.

HMike- relax man. I suspect you are a reasonable good person. You seem to end up in the deep end too often for your own good. Grab a coffee, go for cruise, or even better head out to the shop, and make some thin wood curlies. It's good for the soul.

Ok, sorry but the cameltoe in the middle of all that was hilarious.

Mike


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Hey Mike (Bagtown),
As a matter of fact I AM going for a ride tomorrow on my Harley, and I am doing so in order to celebrate the COMPLETION of my Barrister's Bookcase. I will be riding with my buddy who passed on his late father's lifetime WW collection to me (and get this, HE is a republican to boot!). It has been a hell of a project, with about 120 pieces individually milled and cut to make this. I combined both the 1988 Wood Magazine article (which I have) and the 2003 article that I only had an image of online (though I am buying the remainder of the collection as we speak). The bookcase looks great, and Charles Neil and Rick Dennington even pitched in with advise on my blotching issues. Sure would NOT get anything like that kind of help from THESE guys,... just sayin'...

I've been toasting a bit and sitting back staring at my latest greatest in my living room. It is my FIRST piece of furniture (other than my workbench) and I feel good about it. I will post images in a couple of days, but am taking the time to actually enjoy woodworking and NOT JUST TALKING ABOUT IT. Maybe I should go wax a hand plane or something… nah that would just be rubbing it in their faces…

FWIW, I am actually enjoying this thread because of those who have their panties in a wad just itchin' to get at me at all costs I find it humorous as hell. They want to be as obnoxious as possible in order to try and tank this thread yet they don't dare pull back their own attacks. It reminds me of an ant colony I stomped on once, but much MORE fun, if you know what I mean. They are more concerned about attacking ME than even thinking about any suggestion I have made for improvement. Even Dan and Superstretch are drinking the kool-aid. Amazing,... simply amazing….


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

Yeah, I see. Let the R ride scout ahead of you in case any white tails cross your path. Smart.


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## lj61673 (Oct 31, 2011)

First the instigator, then the aggitator, then the explainer, then the misunderstood, then the martyr, then the victim, always the fool….


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

*Even Dan and Superstretch are drinking the kool-aid. *
Strong "personal attack", Mike. Hate those, don't we? Enjoy your bookcase and your ride.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

Amazing when it's not Mike's thread, he can't block anyone and everyone, so the truth comes out on the opinion people have of him.
Mike, stick to your own threads with your people blocked volumes, so it looks like all the responses agree with your twisted opinions. All three of them.
You step into dangerous waters when it's not your thread, as the true picture comes out on what people think.
Yea, go ahead and flag this one as you do all my others. 
Notice, no name calling, no belittling, just fact.
Hey, can I talk about my quilt rack project for the umpteenth time here?..........Nah!
Just 'sayin.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

For the record, I don't dislike Mike whatsoever. I've always respected him as a passionate, interesting person. I've simply just had a bad few days and the predictable universal confrontation, word smithing, and veiled hostility got the best of me. Although I'm not sure what the relevance of inheriting a WW collection from a Republican has to do with the price of tea in China, I'm looking forward to seeing the bookcase. I'm not sure that namedropping regarding finishing has any relevance either. Furthermore, I'm not sure that criticizing people for talking too much is necessarily appropriate, given the volume of posts. In terms of "tanking" this thread, I think you're giving it a bit too much credit; it is, after all, a thread requesting that another thread be "killed" (or "tanked" if you prefer). People are just here for the spectacle and I guess I'm guilty of that. It was a ridiculously silly thread from the get-go. Like Paris Hilton, it's just one more embarrassing attention grab.


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## vipond33 (Jul 25, 2011)

@Bertha - Thanks for the conciliatory post. It was just what was needed here to help dial down some rather absurd rhetoric. My respect to you.
gene


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Thanks Gene, it is appreciated. I try to be an accommodating guy but I have my bad days like everyone else. With the best hobby in the World we have in common, it seems silly to bicker. I'll try to do better taking my own advice in the future.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

You guys are STILL just spinning around and around about getting me personally and say/think/share NOTHING about improving any indexing or promotion of hand planes on LumberJocks. Geez… get a clue and get ON with improving hand plane and hand tools exposure on LumberJocks already. You are only embarrassing yourselves.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

JGM0658,
*Get over the personal crap already!*... and work on the suggestions regarding hand tools and hand planes exposure and promotion on LumberJocks.


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## JGM0658 (Aug 16, 2011)

Oh no, I ain't biting bubba…please read this once again

When you argue with an idiot people looking at you don't know which is which, … ;-)

Like Stumpy this is my last post in this thread.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

I don't own, administrate, or work for this site. I am thus under no obligation to improve access to information here. If individual members take it upon themselves to do so, there has been provided an appropriate place to do so. That place is site feedback (http://lumberjocks.com/forums/4).


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

Mike, read your first four posts in this thread. Then notice that nine of your first 11 posts were off-topic at best, the others quite incindiary. You're not a victim, Sir, but rather entered this thread with all the subtlety of a 2×4 to the head. When you did suggest hand plane forums organized by topic, there was a very quick response to do it. Since then, the victimization refrain.


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## superstretch (Jan 10, 2011)

Guys guys guys.. Lets remember what day this is 

Maybe people just need a little love


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

You're right, Stretch, thanks for the reminder. There are real things to concern ourselves with.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Soooo, this is MIKE'S post instead of Ken's?

As for that "saying", I thought it used to say " Never argue with an Idiot, they will bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience"

I'm just sitting back, watching all the "replies' go by, kind of entertaining in a twisted way. Down right hilairious actually.

BG James Kemper: " George, you do have a way of trivalizing the momentous, and complicating the trivial, have you ever thought of running for congress?" That is George, aka General George Pickett.

Maybe we could change the name of this thread? "DOG PILE ON (name your topic here) !!!!! LOL LOL LOL!


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Let's take a look. This can't be a personal attack because this is in the public forum. These are a member's words. I would suggest that you examine them and determine how you would characterize them if you were me.
.
.
*There is a lot of good information in that thread, however, the way is has rambled on and on and far off topic, makes getting to that useful information next to impossible and/or a useless task. Kind of like having all the words in a dictionary in the first half of the book and all the definitions in the second half of the book and without an index to guide you. My 2-cents…*
.
Fair point; I guess a vague suggestion to add an index, something that would be fantastic, if not impossible.
.
Took one post to default to this:
.
.
*Geez… And I thought politics was a partisan topic!*
.
*OK 'bandit', so YOU think it is OK to RESTRICT/HIDE woodworking information on a woodworking website? And I suppose that YOU TOO think that Ken "is a little person" simply for questioning what is going on?*
.
Classic strawman. No one suggested restricting or hiding information. That's a long stretch from not providing an index, a feature this site does not offer to the best of my knowledge.
.
.
*Stumpy SAID: "What a world we live in these days… everything has to be fair."
Well if THAT is the case, then get with the program or check out….*
.
What program? And suggesting that a member conform or leave?
.
.
*bandit SAID: ""THEY CALL ME……" "
Uh, you do know that NO ONE ever said anything like that don't you… or not. I guess you really have a hang up about this kind of stuff huh…*
.
.
Suggesting that a member has a "hang up". 
.
.
*bandit SAID: _"As for Handplanes in that thread you seem to hate so much, ...Post one of your own…
Geez rookie, give it up already… Just sayin'…
DOCTOR HorizontalMike*
.
"Rookie" versus "Doctor" in a woodworking forum. Maybe I should change my sig to reflect the appropriate credentials: Bertha, M.D., Ph.D., M.S.P.H. (A.S.C.P.), D-A.B.P. (C/P), D-AAFS. I doubt anyone cares about my educational clout on a woodworking site.
.
.
*Randy,
Thanks. I used to have the 418VBM posted in 'Projects' but it got deleted. This was back when we were still trying to get hand tool restoration legitimized on LJs. We finally succeeded and you can see the results. Sure glad we can now post tool restoration 'Projects' and even have our own forum. Just wish folks would understand about organizing such threads/topics so they can be used for later research and browsing.*
.
Coming around a bit to a suggestion. Insinuating that the "result" of the efforts resulted in a "useless" (see above) forum.
.
.
*Hey Tom, I do NOT have anything as nice as THAT 1854 Bailey of yours. WOW!

And besides, I'm a Sargent kinda guy… ;-)*
.

.Very pleasant. That plane is fantastic.
.
.
*Stumpy SAID: Finally, I didn't notice any "nasty personal attacks" directed at Ken, but I am sorry if he felt attacked. 
How about THIS from Don. Sounds rather personal to me.
DON W post #26:
"What a little person. Ken doesn't want to participate but wants to make sure we make it easy for him to learn from what we talk about. Ken, many of us have more post on that thread than you do this site.
I might mention I don't get mad very often, and this will be the first time on LJs."
Stumpy, From the reaction of those in the 'Handplanes of your Dreams' topic, THEY are as much OR MORE partisan than either the Right or Left regarding politics. I see NO cooperation in finding a solution to the difficulties of such a massive thread.
All I see is a 'leave us the hell alone' attitude from these HOYD folks. Stumpy, it sure appears that it is YOURs (as well as DonW, bandit, etc.) skivie's that are in a wad.*
.
Now the contributors to the thread are partisan with a "leave us the hell alone" attitude. I would challenge anyone to express their negative experience in that thread. I can't remember a single example of someone not being kindly welcomed there. 
.
.
*Yeah Tom, I just have these Sargents:
#418-handed down from my GG-father
#418VBM-that I picked up from eBay
#422 (early Type II, narrow body and a thin foot for frog)-another eBay find.
I would really LOVE to have a 402 or 403… some day. ;-)*
.
Very pleasant. Those are some very desirable planes to me.
.
.
*bandit,
And your point is…? Or are you just as partisan as Danny boy here about 'no problem here, move along now, no problem here'…?You guys really do make my point for me, with little effort on my part. Geez…
So what have you offered up as a solution to the issue of difficulty in searching/indexing such a large nondescript forum topic?*
.
Again with the partisan thing. Also again, I don't think anyone has an obligation to provide a solution for forum searching. 
.
.
*bandit, are you going to invoke Godwin's Law next? Just wondering…
How about solutions and not name calling huh…*
.
The name-calling accusation again
.
.
*Al, the information that passes through the HOYD is quite useful and informative. It is just not very assessable and many topics (this type plane or that plane type, etc) go unnoticed by most on LJs because of not being labeled, and/or topics of there own that can be or are listed under the Tools Forum.
Even something as simple as forum topics such as:
Stanley Planes
Sargent Planes
Record Planes
Bailey Planes
Etc.
This would help all involved and offer motivation for other LJs to consider using hand planes. But then again, if the point is to NOT be helpful then carry on*
.
This is a helpful suggestion and anyone is welcome to start these threads. The HOYD thread is not exclusive to the subject. Then there's that jab about being intentionally unhelpful
.
.
*Al,
So where did you get the idea that "I" don't like the HOYD thread/topic? To think that is BS. And where the hell did I say ANYTHING about rules and regulations? Geez… what a load of crap. I have posted my ideas on this thread just as you and others have, well some are just interested in attacking my person, but other than that, you can NO SOONER group me with the OP than I can group you, Stumpy, etc. with the OP and the OP's intentions. How quickly you forget who originally helped lead the fight for the inclusion of hand plane restorations in projects and general hand tool acknowledgement on LJs. 
http://lumberjocks.com/topics/25501
I offered a suggestion to be helpful and to make hand plane information MORE available, valuable, and visible on LJs and all I got was personal crap for suggesting anything. Consider that more forum topics on the various hand planes would make these hand tools much more obvious and build our case for an entire FORUM dedicated to Hand Tools (old and new alike) on the LumberJocks website. FWIW, try something novel-read and think about the 'suggestion' I posted and NOT just about who posted it.
And Stumpy… should I patronize you as well? Just sayin'…*
.
More of the same (see above)
.
.
*So bandit, Rick, Stumpy,... none of you have any ideas or positive ideas to deal with a concern from the OP?

You just want to play in my sandbox and throw sand huh…*
.
And now there's a sandbox owner
.
.
*FIRST AL SAID: "And where did I suggest that you didn't LIKE the thread."
AL ANSWERED HIS OWN QUESTION: "If the existence of the Handplanes of Your Dreams thread is really bothering you,..."
AL SAID: "You clearly expressed that you simply don't like the people IN the thread (see above)"
Uh Al, where did I ever say THAT? I do say that they(those in this thread who are posting in defense of HOYD) are way more partisan, and this is being repeatedly evidenced by all the ganging on above. So just who is the whipping boy here?
AL SAID: "I took your suggestion seriously and posted as such in the "other" thread."
You did NO SUCH THING. The only related post by YOU is criticizing LJs administrators:
AL: "Martin might have some good ideas. I hope you don't expect any thanks from those guys. That doesn't work into their victimization model."
At least @Smitty was thinking about the issue, and I thank @Smitty for taking the time to do so.
FWIW, I have NEVER called for any regulations, I have NEVER called for any new rules. I offered a way to make hand planes more visible as hand tools to the general LumberJocks population in order to promote the use of hand tools.*
.
You can see from my quote above (Martin might have some good ideas) posted in HPOYD that I clearly did make this suggestion. I think "those guys" is pretty clear in that post and certainly not directed at admin. Then there was the clever graphic insinuating that I was unarmed in terms of wits.
.
.
*My only embarrassment is for those who continue the personal attacks. But I do understand what you are trying to do. You all are trying to make this thread look so bad as to be deleted. I am NOT offended by this, and I do find it quite humorous to be honest.
So I guess you all don't even understand that an index is NOT a rule, an index is NOT a regulation, nor do you all understand that I do NOT propose or support any rule OR regulation regarding hand planes.
I guess you all don't even like hand planes enough to even consider trying to promote them to the wider LumberJocks audience.
I guess you all don't even like LumberJocks at all. After all, Al openly criticized LumberJocks administration as having a "victimization model" (post #9073 in HOYD).*
.
this suggests that I must have some stake in the existence of this thread, as if I'm threatened somehow by it. Also that I "don't like handplanes" (which is my prerogative), even that I don't "like Lumberjocks" (which is also my prerogative). I said to Martin directly in open forum a long time ago that if he doesn't approve of me being here, he should suspend/ban me. As site admin, only he has that right.
.
It all kind of degrades into funny pictures at this point. Seriously though, re-read through it and consider.


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

With all due respect (no more and certainly no less), let's pretend for just a second that the HPOYD had begun and remained 100% on topic with never a stray remark. How useful would that be for getting information on a particular plane ? It was/is impossible to expect even the possibility that all posts be made for every plane in Brand and alpha-numerical model number. Even without the very banter that made (and continues to make) the thread so wildly popular, the scope of the subject is too broad to expect its use as a quick reference (although there are tons of great information laced throughout the thread).

I earlier stated that *"One of my favorite forums has a search feature that cuts through the banter if one chooses to go straight for the search string post (as opposed to the thread). When you search, you enter your search phrase string of words, then click either to show the threads or the actual posts that include the string.

Maybe Lumberjocks could / should upgrade to that…"*

It's the My Les Paul forum. If I go there and want to read about aniline dye… or veritone circuit… or see if anybody has a copycarver… WHATEVER… I can select the results as EITHER the actual thread that contains the search words OR the single post within the thread. It saves tons of time, yet for it to be that way did not require any gagging of normal forum banter.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

And now Grimes personally attacks Les Paul. Will it ever end?  That's an excellent suggestion. I've encountered other boolean string based queries in forums.


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## greasemonkeyredneck (Aug 14, 2010)

I will say one thing, then I'm outahere.
While I agree that some threads go off topic….
Ok, I submit that most threads, if they survive long enough, go way off topic.
I'm part of two different threads now that are so far off topic at time I have to scroll to the top to remember what the original topic was.
I think…...
Think, my opinion, nothing more, nothing less.

I think that one of the major factors that keeps some of us coming back to discussion forums, even after we said we wouldn't, is the *discusion* factor of it.
It would, again, in my opinion, get old quick if all we did was post the facts, nothing more, and never just carried on a discussion here.

It's much like sitting around the fire place with a cup of joe (or beer or liquor for you guys that go for that) and shooting the $#!+ with you buddies. 
It's the same reason we like visitors in our shops. It slows our work down dramatically, but it sure is nice to visit with friends.

So, as long as there are discussion forums, I will go off topic every once in a while…..
Ok, I do it a lot. I admit it.
As long as there are discussion forums, I will enjoy visiting my buddies. When they are shut down and we have to stick to some "script", I will have to find something else to do, because I would probably be one to get bored with that real fast.

So in closing, can't we all just get along?
I recently joined the handplane thread in question. I read THIS post and went for a look see and seen that it was interesting, so I commented just to move to the bottom and be able to keep up.
My suggestion to the original poster of THIS topic, is to go to the handplane thread and ask a question. Hell, ask any question. It will move you to the bottom and you will get an answer. I can almost promise you you'll get an answer.
My suggestion to all others who think that all the information should be seperated nice and neatly for all to learn from, I think that is a worthy goal. Anyone willing too, it's a great thing to start on anytime you're ready. A lot of handplane lovers on Lumberjocks would greatly appreciate it.

As for the current 9000+ post hand plane thread, it is already so long that it can't be tamed, so what exactly is the issue?
To do something with it down would be like going back and unwrecking a train.
How do you do that???


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

William, do you feel like you were fairly greeted there? Did you sense any hostility there? I really hope others do what you did. There are some characters in that thread, just like the visitors to my shop


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## Apay (Jan 21, 2012)

i actually read this blog and men let me say this i did read the hand-planes of you dream by Bertha and i think there was nothing wrong with Bertha post,
but i think everybody have the right to post anything 
but this particular post about killing the post that Bertha made is wrong ,,,

nice post by the way bertha


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## greasemonkeyredneck (Aug 14, 2010)

Bertha, that's the great thing about this site as a whole. I've always been fairly greeted in every part of this site, including the handplane thread in question. 
I wasn't even planning on commenting on this topic. Sometimes though I read so much of this back and forth while scratching my head (don't have much hair left, can't be doing that) that I feel a need to inject some back to basics common sense.
There is a common problem I see cropping up on Limberjerks lately that I don't understand. The problem manifests itself in a variety of ways. There is one single thing though that cures it all. That is to close the page and move on to something else.

Here is my way of looking at things at Lumberjocks, and pretty much anywhere else. Let's stick to Lumberjocks though for now.
I have made a few friends here. I enjoy them and even have a few that I talk to off the site. I text a lot. There's been a few that ask for my number and I kno about what's going on in there shop before it's posted here.
There have been a few people that get on my nerves.
So how to I balance all that?
My friends, I talk to on here pretty much the way I would in my shop. I carry on a bunch of bull malarky. I'm sure you've seen that yourself. I am what I am and that's all that I am. 
The ones who get on my nerves, when it starts getting on my nerves, I will sometimes comment, like I did here. Sometimes I won't say anything. I'll just move on. However, no matter how bad it is, I enjoy myself. Nothing noone says here on Lumberjocks will ruin my day. You can cuss me up one side and down the other. You may get your own blood pressure up, but it won't bother me. 
Why?
I promise Bertha, this is not directed at you. I'm only making a point.
Look up, to the right, AAAAAAAAAAALL the way in the top right hand corner of your screen (or window depending on your page size) is a little *X*.
Click it and discover the magic behind this great thing called the information highway.


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

Back a few thousand posts ago, I did keep up and commented / participated on that thread. I looked forward to it every day (nights mostly). Good times. You can pop in over there and ask anything and you'll get good responsive advice. I even learned a good bit about planes from some really great guys. I even got a very strong (but short-lived) case of Rhynokeynesia (sic) or whatever. Not enough of a challenge for me. It started to feel like Pokemon. So what if I collect them all !? But that's just me.

Those guys on that thread for the most part rock ! They are bathing in their passion and deliriously splashing it all over each other, too. Good times. Still happening. Carry on. It will.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

Bravo to David, William and Al. In the not so famous words of Sir Paul McCartney, "What a suitable ending, I think…"

Checking out of this thread. G'day, All!


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## patron (Apr 2, 2009)




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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Like I said, I am embarrassed for all of you who continue your little tribal hate dance. I stand by my suggestion that hand plane, as well as hand tool, use would be better served with some thoughtful planning by those posting in such forums.

More forum topics PROPERLY PLACED under the *"Hand Tools Forum"* instead of IMPROPERLY PLACED topics like the HOYD into the *Power Tools, Hardware and Accessories Forum* would be a "thoughtful" place to start.

But then again, thoughtful anything does not seem to work well for you folks and it seems to be lacking in each of your toolboxes. At least y'all have NOT shown any in THIS topic for sure…


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

they see me trollin ….


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

*"your little tribal hate dance"*

see how he works?
Just when the flames turn to dying embers, he crawls out of the hole and fans them again.
Pathetic. 
From a Ph.D no less.
Pretty Juvenile


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## lj61673 (Oct 31, 2011)

*"More forum topics PROPERLY PLACED under the "Hand Tools Forum" instead of IMPROPERLY PLACED topics like the HOYD into the Power Tools, Hardware and Accessories Forum would be a "thoughtful" place to start."*

If this paragraph had been your first and only post in this thread then I would have said to myself, that is a well thought out and worded remark by a concerned intelligent member.

But its not and you're not.

Anyway, good luck with the victim routine…looks like its going over well so far….


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## renners (Apr 9, 2010)

Did you mean this










for the inevitable heat

or, this?










for the unexpected entertainment, 'Steve Wilkos' style?


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

*they see me trollin ….*
they be hatin….lol.
.
.
*More forum topics PROPERLY PLACED under the "Hand Tools Forum" instead of IMPROPERLY PLACED topics like the HOYD into the Power Tools, Hardware and Accessories Forum would be a "thoughtful" place to start.*
.
Of course, the "hand tools forum" didn't exist at the time the thread was started; otherwise, that's an excellent suggestion, lol
.
And tribal dance? Tribal? Please, none of you take this bait.


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## SamuelP (Feb 26, 2011)




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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Sam: THAT works for me!!!!!! There is so much junk from this thread in my computer, I had to go out and buy a new one tonight.

Mike as a "victum"? Now that is a big belly laugh right there, I don't care who you are! Every time I tune into this thread, I never know which "show" I'll be watching. One time, it's Doctor Who ( Sci-fi) other times it's The Monty Python Show, still other times, more like the Gong Show. Then there are those posts that make one stop and go "HUH?" What's next, a parody of "Hot in Cleveland"?


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## superstretch (Jan 10, 2011)

Chris and Al.. you just had to get this song stuck in my head.. thanks!


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## lysdexic (Mar 21, 2011)

"when you argue with an idiot people looking at you don't know which is which"

Love that.


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## tom427cid (Aug 21, 2011)

Strikes me that if Bertha had any idea that the original post might have gone platinum for the # of replys he might have put some constraints on it. For others being a monday am quarterback sometimes makes ya look good,but the bottom line if ya wasn't there sat nite in the middle of it, ya aint part of the solution-therefore ya must be part of the problem.
tom


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Well put Tom.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Very true, Tom. I'd been a member for only 85 days when I started that thread. There was no forum for hand tools and there certainly was no off-topic forum. If I had any inkling that there was so much interest here, I would have suggested some sort of structure. That being said, I'm not admin, so I might have been hesitant even to suggest it. I simply don't know. To demand that hindsight now, however, is a bit pointless. To suggest that it should be destroyed is even more pointless.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

And to suggest some change in practice going forward is NOT pointless. Al it has been pointed out that YOU can indeed change the Forum in which your 'topic' is in, yet you seem to refuse to even consider it. And who says that YOU can't attempt to structure YOUR thread/topic going forward?

To be a bit facetious, it seems to me that you and your buddies find it more important to prove my suggestion wrong than to acknowledge that it might actually be a worthwhile suggestion. Why else continue to ignore/belittle/twist the suggestion out of proportion?


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

OK, Mike. How would you suggest we implement this proposition beginning from this day forward? I'm unaware how we can subdivide an existing thread. I can't rightly divide the thread into brands, etc. like suggested above and still allow the existing thread to continue. When you say "going forward", I feel it's safe to assume that you do not support "killing" the existing thread. Perhaps requiring the first line of the post to contain a category/subcategory? I'm not sure if that would improve search function. I'm all ears.


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## Manitario (Jul 4, 2010)

Just stumbled on this thread….I've never had a problem getting my handplane questions answered on the "Handplane…" thread, the regulars over there have been more than helpful. As for the complaint of having to wade through the 9400 posts to find information; too bad; try asking a question/joining the discussion, after all that is what a forum is…if you want the answers right in front of you without ever having to interact with the other LJ's, go out and buy a book.


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## Dcase (Jul 7, 2010)

I really get a kick out of Mike complaining that everyone is dishing out personal attacks when Mike was the one who came into this thread dishing out personal attacks on others.

Mike, you keep asking us to provide solutions but I all ready told you, there is no problem that needs to be solved. You are the only one who is going on and on about needing solutions.

If someone wants to join in the HOYD thread then they are welcome to come in and ask questions and talk with the rest of us. Another option would be for them to just start their own thread with a question or comment.

You just seem like the kind of guy who likes to argue. You were the same way in your thread about requiring ID's. If you didn't enjoy the arguments, you would just ignore them like most people do on this site.

I don't think the HOYD thread should change at all. Its fine the way it is. If Mike has a problem with the thread then he can have a problem with it. I think he has a problem with a lot of threads.

Thats all I have to say… Go ahead with your defensive response and remember to include a lot of CAPITAL letters so that I know your upset. Thanks


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Al, 
Your HOYD thread gets a lot of hits. All I would suggest is to suggest to your fans that they start new topics under *Hand Planes* with such topic names like (and this is determined by individual's favorite plane manufacturers/models):

Auburn
Ohio Tool Company
Stanley
Baileys-even if just a sub-category of Stanley (but some will make Baileys their entire collection for example)
Record
Sargent
Fulton-see above
Wood Bodied Planes
Etc.
Etc.

Threads could/would still eventually get huge, but at least folks could head to the 'family' of planes catered around their particular interest at the time. I do think that all threads eventually reach a critical mass and then fall apart under their own weight, HOWEVER, I think this would buy everyone some time by spreading out the shear volume of interest that your forum topic shows exists in hand planes.

I am sure that this is not a perfect solution and it is NOT some kind of mandate, maybe just a way for folks to voluntarily start some 'plane/company specific' resources/threads to refer folks back to later.

I am sure you have heard the old adage about how to eat an elephant… just one bite at a time (and I do NOT mean the political kind). The HOYD has so much great information that, yes one could eventually find that information through searches/reading all, etc. *IF* one knew what to ask.

*HOWEVER, what does the person do, who knows nothing about hand planes (types, sizes, manufacturers, uses, etc.) IF THEY DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT TO ASK in order to begin exploring a new interest in hand planes?*

OR, you could just wait and watch your HOYD eventually grow so large as to be unworkable and then watch it eventually self-destruct. Geez, even CharlieM1958 has started avoiding the HOYD (post #6) and I know for a fact that he was one of the first/early LJs supporting hand plane restoration on LJs Projects pages. I think that says something about HOYD. But then again, that is just my 2-cents…


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

You were going so good there, Mike, then you name-dropped alongside an insult. The salutation is to me, so I'll only take exception to the use of "your" because it's no more mine than yours. We won't even mention the use of "fan" and I'll just ignore those parting jabs to concentrate on the meat of your message.
.

*start new topics under Hand Planes*
.
How exactly do you do this? Are you suggesting that we pick a topic and focus on it; or is there some method to subdivide a thread that I'm not aware of. I'm not being facetious; I honestly don't know. Perhaps you could give me a detailed example of what you mean.


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## Viking (Aug 26, 2009)

H. Mike;

If you recall my almost last post on this thread suggested that if you thought creating brand specific hand plane forums was a good idea you should lead by doing this yourself. You took this, once again as a personal attack and, instead of specifically addressing the post, just decided to play poor pathetic victim and accuse three of us of throwing sand in YOUR sandbox.

By the way, I was wanting to post a very complimentary response on your barrister bookcase project which I consider to be one of the best I have seen here or anywhere. But couldn't, because you have BLOCKED me. I consider you Sir, to be an ASS and you may consider this to be my one and only personal attack on you or anyone else if it matters.

Once, and for all, I'm OUT OF HERE!


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

No jabs intended, but believe what you will… It IS your forum topic and only you can change the particular 'Forum' that that topic resides in and only you can 'edit' the content of that original post. I do not see how you can deny ownership as the OP.

My only real suggestion is for folks to not be so dependent on just one forum topic that they miss posting an interesting topic that would show on the LJs main forum topics page. Surely there are folks, for example, who have a collection of Bedrock planes who could start a 'Bedrock Planes' topic in the Hand Tools Forum. Then others who like/own Bedrocks could chime in with theirs and/or their impressions/opinions etc. The same kind of thing could happen for other types and models of planes. The thing is, doing it this way would show visibly under the LJs Hand Tools Forum and make it easier to search, in this case, Bedrock planes just by scrolling thru the topics list in 'hand planes' to find 'Bedrock Planes' topic.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

OK Mike, I'm trying to get this all straight, so please bear with me. Yes, I am the originator of the thread in question. As OP, I am in possession of the edit button which allows me to change the title, the picture, etc. If there's a secret OP toolbar with an indexing tool, please clue me in. I am not the owner of this website, so I can deny ownership of a thread on this website. 
.
So if I'm understanding you correctly, your only real suggestion is for other people to start additional threads about additional specific plane-related topics? Why didn't you just say so in the first place? 
.
Why don't you start those threads? You could be a hero. "Bedrock Planes" sounds like a fantastic start, as there is definitely a lot of interest in that variety of Stanley plane. If you're not willing to start the threads, make a list of categories you'll like to see and I'm certain someone here will start them for you. If no one volunteers to start them for you, I'll start them for you. 
.
If it catches on, your idea will be the model for future handtool forums. Saws, for example, could be broken down into Disston, BadAxe, etc. It could be epic.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

I have it on good authority that Fred Flintstone and Barney Rubble both used* Bedrock *planes, produced in the city in which they live. Nyuk, Nyuk!


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

The "D" elephant cannot be eaten. All the hot air comes rushing out with the least of perforations.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

SIMPLE AL, I personally do not own any Bedrock Planes. And please point SPECIFICALLY where I said anything about indexing in my previous post. I recommended a solution and you, I hope, you are just trying to play it for all it is worth. Outside of your own supporters (I know 'fans' was offensive to you, so is "supporters" OK?), how do you really think this is playing out? Go back to what Tom said,... really.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Maybe MIKE should start a "Rival" thread, and use all the "solutions" he has given. Ofcourse, coming to this thread is about the same as watching a re-run of the Smothers Brother's Show. Music! This thread needs a music video! It might even go "Viral" on youtube…...


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## superstretch (Jan 10, 2011)

Benny Hill music, maybe.

The simple answer to all this problems people keep making up is: if you have a question, start a new thread. HPOYD is not a "lets chronicle and include information for every plane ever", its basically tool porn. State what you lust after, enjoy the conversation.

Really, at this point, the problems being offered up in this post are really just a facade to stand behind to legitimize the right to argue.. and refuse to leave the argument.


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## ShaneA (Apr 15, 2011)

.I guess I just dont get it. Al, or anybody else really isnt obligated to share or facilitate the transfer of knowledge. To keep hintng or suggesting that any member should even remotely take a burder to share knowledge and create things to ease others searches is ridiculous. If we were all so obliged we would all be answering every forum question ever posed. Forums are organic and take a life of thier own, kinda like this one. HPOYD sort of has its own life, I do not recall anyone being precluded from the thread. If you want to ask , you can. No one has to answer, if you dont wany to jump in, start your own forum. Seems simple. Lets not over complicate it.

The tone of the thread is very positive, I have gotten to know several of the guys better thru that forum. I enjoy reading and participating there. Why anyone would want to "kill" or alter it anyway seems wacky, to me. If one wanted to join in, they can. If you dont want to be burdened by reading it, dont. I guarantee if the regular posters on that thread couldnt post any more on that thread, the conversation would carry on somewhere else. Would that be a problem too? If the site's search function is not to your liking, find another site. I dont think its broke, so I am not trying to fix it, or suggest that anyone else try to fix it. The OP idea is absurd. Kind of suprises me anyone would be so self absorbed as to suggest to kill a forum, because they dont want read it, or its too off topic. That is how you win friends and influence people sir.


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## Dcase (Jul 7, 2010)

I don't think Mike really understands what the HOYD thread is. Its just random talk about planes. Breaking it up into different categories would be impossible. No one would be able to follow all the sub categories.

I think Al has given a great suggestion. If someone wants to start a specific conversation on a certain type of plane then they are free to do so. I am sure many of the guys who post in HOYD thread would also post there. However there is no reason to end the current thread.

I don't think Mike will ever be happy with what any of us have to say so its pointless to continue to try and reason with him…


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## superstretch (Jan 10, 2011)

I agree. Time to check out of this topic and let him argue with himself.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Mike, the only suggestion you've offered is to start additional threads about different subtopics. You further suggested that we should better organize the material from this day "forward". This presents two options, as I understand them: 1) Start a bunch of new forum topics or 2) Somehow rearrange the existing forum topic from this day "forward". You have offered no method of achieving #2. You have not pursued #1. 
.
Mike, I can tell that you're one of those guys that really takes pride in his smarts. I know a lot of guys like that, both professionally and personally. If you're so desperate to be the smartest guy in the room, go find a room that offers you a challenge. There's no challenge for you here, brother. I believe that 99% of us are either too dumb to challenge you or too uninterested in playing paddycakes with you. 
.
You've offered up your suggestion. You have defended it vigorously. You've provided a fine piece of woodworking for us all to admire. Sadly perhaps, I'm not aware of any new threads that have been created by you or anyone else. I will assume that if the populace is interested in these threads, they will be created. I am not interested in starting them myself. If that makes me selfish, guilty of "hiding" information, or any other atrocity, then so be it. I think we've beaten this to death. You have your remedy, should you choose to pursue it.


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## millzit (Feb 5, 2012)

bertha wrote:........I think we've beaten this to death.

..but, i don't have any licks in yet…....


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

^Millzit, you have by far the best avatar on this site


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## greasemonkeyredneck (Aug 14, 2010)

I promised myself I would not get back into this fray.
Something jumped out at me though concerning the suggestions on how to make that thread better, and that thread itself.
I think to understand the situation, one has to actually read the original post.
So, please, read the following. Pretend for a second that it is your first time reading it and there are no responses yet under it.

*There's enough handplane lovers around here that this could be an informative question. What are your dream handplanes (handtools in general are acceptable)? I'm a sucker for the infills, so Norris and Preston would be at the top of my list. Of all of them….hmmm….probably a Norris panel plane (below) closely followed by a big Mathieson.*

If you read that topic, it says nothing about "lets make an informative post to teach about handplanes".
What it basically says is, 
"HEY! I love handplanes. I especially like infills. So let's sit around and chat about what our dream planes are. I'm leaving the topic wide open. That's why I included the 'handtools in general' idea there. I'm keeping it open because I have no idea of anyone will even post to this. I figured I'd give it a go though. So what you want to talk about?"

So in reality, if you take the original wording and intent of the "Handplanes of your dreams" post, it is 110% ON TOPIC and shouldn't be thought to be more than it is, just a bunch of guys talking about their handplane and hand tool dreams.

Yes, it does go offtopic at times. What thread doesn't if it is around long enough? It is easy to go off topic when guy like me are around. Wait. I'll show you.

*I had a good bowel movement this morning.*
Now how in the world could that be more off topic?
I'm sorry to be vulgar, but it is to make a point.
The point is that, if we are to go along with the suggestions and ideas presented here and elsewhewher lately on this site, then we now have several options.
We could kill *THIS* thread since I went that far off topic.
The original poster, along with a few others, could block me since I'm so rude.
We could start a new thread about bowel movement. 
Of course it would have to be in the non-shop talk area.
Or we could categorize the bowel movement discussion. Good luck with that.


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

William -

Great points all around. I do have a suggestion. If you decide to start the thread you propose, first, please ask Martin if there is a way to prevent images from being included in a particular thread!

Thank you.


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## greasemonkeyredneck (Aug 14, 2010)

Chuck, if I start that thread (no, not going to happen, no way) I will be sure to include in the original message that NO PICTURES ALLOWED.
I know everyone will follow that rule. I have confidence in them.

Oh! Wait!

That goes to further elaborate on what I stated earlier.
No people will not follow my rules on my topic. 
Why? I think it's because it's an open forum and people just don't follow the original poster's rules. That's just the way it is. It is what it is.

To go even further,

One of the original statements made in this here thread was, " To much off topic postings should kill any thread becasue that thread has no real purpose anymore."

Now to the apparent argument between Mike and others.
*I deeply apologize Mike. You know I usually never call anyone out. There is just no other way to make my point here though.*

Even Mike should know, because I've seen it so many times on his own topics, it is impossible to keep other people on topic on your posts. I have even seen a couple of times that Mike was trying to keep things on topic and would practically beg people to stay on topic in his posts. It fell on deaf ears though. Other responders kept right on making their off topic comments.
Does that mean that Mike's thread should have been killed?
I don't think so.

In my personal opinion, the statement, " To much off topic postings should kill any thread becasue that thread has no real purpose anymore," demonstrates a lack of basic understanding of how the forums here on Lumberjocks work. At least this is the way they've worked for the entire short time I've been here.

To go even deeper, I have even read several posts, here on Lumberjocks, concerning complaints about other forums and sites that try to censor and control their contributors too much and that the openess here on Lumberjocks was one of the things a lot of people enjoyed about it.
Aint it funny that the thing a lot of people like about Lumberjocks is the source of contention in this thead?


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

A great example of how important it is to always stay on topic can be seen in the result of Dr. Alexander Fleming's tangent in 1928. If he had just stuck to the plan and discarded the moldy petri dish, he would have avoided the discovery of penicillin. What a pity he went off-topic.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

*Al SAID: Mike, the only suggestion you've offered is to start additional threads about different subtopics. You further suggested that we should better organize the material from this day "forward". This presents two options,...*

Not true, that is one and the same. New topics adds to better organization of information on hand planes.

*Al SAID: Sadly perhaps, I'm not aware of any new threads that have been created by you or anyone else.*

How about this one, Fulton plane help? It all starts with small steps and will build to better/easier searching for other LJs who may not be so well versed as you are on hand planes. In the future 'Fulton Planes will more readily show up, listed as a topic in the Hand Tools Forum.

Or this one, Stanley Bed Rock No. 5, Type 3: Restore or Sell?

IMO, these are MUCH easier to find listed under the Hand Tools Forum than scanning through 9,400 posts one-by-one.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Well there you have it, Mike. Either there wasn't a problem or you fixed it. Take your pick. Now if you don't mind, can we continue along with the HOYD thread or is there still a call for its "killing".


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## KenBry (Sep 13, 2011)

I have created this thread out of frustration. Relatively new to this Forum, I started to read the Handplane of your dreams thread…Halfway in I got so fed up with the off topic posts I posted this thread.

Since then I learned that that thread was created before the subject even existed.. Kudo's to you guys that created it and the Forum for seeing its popularity and creating a place for posts like it.

I would hope that in the future people consider opening new topics in the appropriate places under the heading that apply to their intended conversation topic.

One great tool that this forum offers is that the OP of a thread can move their topic to a more appropriate area. IF that area didn't exist before they started their post but was created after their post, they might consider moving their topic to the appropriate section.

I for one am willing to admit when I am wrong, and I do so freely. I took a bull in the china shop approach to things and I could have handled it better as many people have kindly pointed out. I can't take back what has been said but what I can do is offer an apology to those that I ruffled there feathers. 
My sincerest apologies to you.

Now I only ask that if folks want to talk hand planes (or other tools) that are of a particular brand, type, style, metal or whatever that they consider opening a separate post so the information generated from their post is easily found by the present and future membership.
Many thanks.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

And Al, there you have it as well. It will be interesting to look back and see this in a year or so. Will there still only be a couple of handplane topics, or hundreds…?

Thanks for the last post Ken.


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## RGtools (Feb 18, 2011)

Very well said Ken.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Said like a true gentleman, Ken. Good on you, Al.


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## patron (Apr 2, 2009)

well said ken

and welcome to LJ's
*again*


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## superdav721 (Aug 16, 2010)

Bravo Ken.


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## Dwain (Nov 1, 2007)

Thanks Ken.


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