# All is not perfect in Saw Stop Land



## stevenmadden (Dec 10, 2009)

*ccweems*: What is this a review of? What is the actual question being posed? You don't even own the product in question, what is the point?


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## mrpedaling (Jun 14, 2011)

Couple things…

- this is more an observation… not sure it's fair to put in as a review- maybe there's a better forum?
- You're sorta right. But it's cartridge PLUS blade you'll be buying. If you're miserly and able to pull the embedded blade from the brake, you could get it sharpened/straightened… but thats sounds kinda sketchy. You'll get a new blade. So make that minimum $100+
- On a cabinet saw like this, I kinda go outa my way to avoid cutting conductive materials.  On a jobsite, I could see this being a serious headache. But then again, maybe you're not using the fence/miter gauge, and cutting sammiches at lunchtime for the crew. I kid. But had mine for the better part of a year and I don't cut much pressure treated/wet/reclaimed wood. When I do the first two, I touch it to the blade and see if the lights flash before turning on the saw. That tells you if it'll trip the brake on a cut. Further, the manual basically says wood has to be near 'soaking' wet. If you're into reclaimed wood, maybe you invest in a metal detector to save you from nicking up those carbide teeth on the blades, regardless of triggering the brake. I think they also mention hitting staples won't trigger the brake (usually?). Nails… yeah. Don't care about the brake. Don't want to hit a nail. 
and 
- Crazy as it sounds, I think the fear of watching/hearing a ben franklin (or two, forrest blade owners!) disappear from your wallet keeps me more vigilant than "you'll cut your finger off if you're careless" when it comes to this saw. What can I say. Too much extreme sports or something. But anytime someone asks if I've doing the safety-brake trick I kinda get grumpy and mutter about the cost.

This saw is the bees knees. Super flat top, great motor, excellent ergonomics, dust collection darn good with only a shop vac and none of the extras. Heck, the blade it came with isn't half bad either. Great fence. Mobile base nice too.

I am not sure I agree with the validity your closing questions/conclusion. Apologies in advance for potential ruffled feathers.


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## jonmulzer (Feb 7, 2011)

This does not belong here, and I believe everyone is already aware of the potential for problems. Weird thing is, very occasionally and under the right circumstances there exists the possibility for misfires and ruined blades. On other saws, usually due to carelessness, the saw will cut your fingers off. You could probably buy 100+ blades and brake cartridges for the cost of one hand surgery.


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## Manitario (Jul 4, 2010)

As the others have said, this is not really a review, just an observation about a machine you don't own, it would fit better as a forum topic than in the review section. 
I agree with your comments though; falsely tripping the safety mechanism is a concern, and a potentially expensive problem. I have a SS, and although I haven't tripped the mechanism yet, I know that it'll happen one of these days. In the meantime I'm pretty careful to turn the safety mech. off when I'm cutting green or pressure treated wood. It's a risk (and potential expense) I'm willing to take; the SS is an awesome saw, safety features aside.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Although I respect your observation, I don't think you can reliably score a machine that you don't own. I'm not sure how the rating system works but it seems unfair to a potential buyer to skew the ratings this way , as people rely upon them when contemplating a purchase. I don't like SawStop for some of the reasons you mention but I'm not allowed to review it until I buy one. 
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And I ain't going to buy one


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

All you have to do is look at an older LJ's with the same question here

Out of 30 answers there have been 2 triggers but they weren't actually false triggers. A nail caused it. With about 25 people saying they've owned the saw and used it for an extended period of time 2 triggers.

One of the users was a neurosurgeon, who tries to repair saw blade torn hands. Interesting read.

Someday I will have one. I just hope it's before I tear something up. As for the "I'll get a sawstop when they pry my table saw out of my cold bloody hands" crowd. Well… You're weird. Then again, a lot of people are these days.


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## Manitario (Jul 4, 2010)

"And I ain't going to buy one" 
I don't know Al…pretty soon they're going to be mandatory anyways…maybe you should jump on the bandwagon before you're forced to


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## Hozer (Apr 27, 2008)

I have had my sawstop for 4 years now and have never tripped the brake, and I have hit several pin nails and brad nails that I didn't know were in the wood I was cutting. I use the saw everyday for my business. As far as I'm concerned its better than I had ever expected. When I bought the Sawstop I bought an extra standard brake, and an extra dado brake just in case. I'm starting to think I'll never use them.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

Add me to the list of people who has NEVER had "misfire" on his SawStop.

And, as always, remember that I haven't taken mine out of the crate, yet ;-)

Yeah, yeah. I know…...


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## Jimi_C (Jul 17, 2009)

Not to pile on, but really this should be a forum or blog post. To address your question though - if you're buy one and you're concerned about nails go buy a metal detector. It'd set you back less than $100, much less for a cheap one, which is all you need for wood that isn't too thick. Carbide blades will lose teeth or worse if they hit nails, so if you're running wood that potentially has nails in it through a table saw today I would be surprised if you don't have one.

And the SawStop has an override button for the brake, for those times where you're cutting wet wood that might cause it to fire - no need to hot wire it anyway.


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## Dusty56 (Apr 20, 2008)

How can you give something you don't own and never used , a 5 star review ?? 
Your "review" is just hear- say…ie: "I was told that "....."He said that " 
When you review something , that means that you are sharing your own experiences with something after using it for a good length of time , not repeating others thoughts. AKA Gossip.


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## buffalosean (Feb 15, 2009)

The guy at the service counter was most likely not referring to home-owner or cabinet shop owners

Carpenters I know that use the contractors saw in the field for commercial construction have had problems with it tripping. Usually because of wet lumber.

One scenario: Plumbers had a leak on storm water line, during second shift. Water got on the lumber and "dried" over night. Next day, worker goes to cut something and the brake activates. I've not used the saws on a commercial site, but the guys I've talked to said they like using the one at the yard, in the controlled environment of the shop, however, it is problematic using the saw in the field.

The guy at the counter was probably dealing with these kind of saw stop users. In a controlled environment, I doubt the brake is going to randomly go off. For a woodworking shop, I think you'll be fine. If you plan on taking your contractors model saw stop to commercial/industrial job sites that are not closed/dried in, you might want to rethink your options.


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## buffalosean (Feb 15, 2009)

One more thing. The contractor is going to pay for replacement cartridges in heart-beat. Even a minor injury is going to cost the contractor a ton of money. The compensation insurance will skyrocket.

I big contractor looks at it as write-off, and potential saving a future compensation claim. I suppose, in the case of the home-owner/one man shop/cabinet shop, if your brake goes is activated, you should look at it in the same positive light.


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## PCM (Jan 23, 2010)

I've owned a Saw Stop for 4 years and have not had a misfire. The saw is great and all of the safety features make you a safer woodworker because you become more aware. Additionally, another important safety aspect is the dust collection which is unmatched in the industry (I upgraded the original saw to the new blade guard and blade shroud). Anyone who discounts the benefits of so much safety is foolish. Has anyone out there never had an accident? No matter how careful you are, there are things that can not be anticipated. Talk to someone who lost a finger and ask them if they would trade the cost of a 100 cartridges and 100 blades for their finger. I hope you never suffer such a tragedy and you certainly have the right to decide this for your self, but I must ask you what is the value of trying to discourage other people from placing safety first.


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## skywalker01 (May 19, 2009)

$3000, that is the value of trying to discourage other people from placing safety first. In this instance (saw stop) some people just can't afford it. Myself included. Even the contractor style is out of my price range. Of course someone who has experienced an accident would say that they would trade 100 blades and cartridges for their finger, because they already had the problem. Me, I can't afford that many blades and cartridges so it's a non point. I either work with what I have as safely as I can or don't work at all. I don't want to offend anyone wanting to state their opinions on the safety of their woodworking experience. This is a dangerous by nature hobby/career that we pursue and you simply cannot protect yourself from every possible danger. You do the best that you can with what you have or you don't do anything at all. If you are in a profession where you must watch you're butt then I would say go all out in providing you're employees with the safest possible working environment. As for the regulation of the table saw it's unfortunate but think about it like this. Vehicles are probably the most dangerous things on the planet. More people are harmed because of those than any table saw accidents by a long shot. The vehicle industry is regulated big time and the cost for an affordable, safe car has dropped over the last 20 years. If you really really want to be safe then go out and get a 90's model Ford Bronco, a Chevy Suburban, a Hummer, but you say, I can't afford the gas on any of those huge vehicles and I really don't want to drive something so huge. Okay, buy a smart car, or a Honda Fit. or a Mazda Miata. See, regulation does not lead to good things disappearing, at least not all the time. And in this case I think we will be fine with the upgrades. The problem comes when people think they are going to be forced to buy something they can't afford. Supply and demand will bring the cost down as long as Sawstop is not allowed to be a monopoly on the saw market. Which would supposedly be against the law. Although the upholding of that is a whole other subject.


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## gillyd (Feb 26, 2011)

Can't this be moved / deleted and put into a forum conversation? LJ's reviews are credible, lets not ruin it.


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## Furnitude (Oct 18, 2008)

Moderators, please remove this post. The review section on Lumberjocks is helpful because it is organized. If people are allowed to post things like this and call them reviews, the whole system will break down. There are plenty of places on Lumberjocks to post opinions about tools. The review section should strictly be for reviews only.


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## ccweems (Apr 9, 2011)

A few answers:
1. I thought the topic was important yet I didn't see the issue brought up in the review section. Burying it in some forum would likely hide it from those looking for reviews which include all of the important data. I gave it a 5 star review because that seemed fairer than anything less.

2. I was at the largest supplier of equipment in Houston whose clients are mostly businesses. As such I wouldn't be surprised that when several people of varying experience are using the saw mistakes will happen.

3. It is doubtless that individuals owning the saws rarely have a misfire but then I also expect that these same individuals are less likely to lose a finger to the saw.

4. My main point was that we will only have a durable solution when a saw stop (generic in this case) is developed that can be reset for little or no cost. The federal government is considering requiring all table saws to have some type of blade brake. While this might be reasonable on a $1000 saw it likely that such a requirement would have a substantial yet undermined effect on cheaper saws. Implementing it prematurely might eliminate less expensive table saws from the market and drive the costs up on used equipment which is often stripped of any guards thus possibly making things less safe than before.

A similar rule in the attempt to save fingers was applied with great success to lawnmowers. The rule was not applied until inexpensive bakes were developed that required no operator intervention. This brings us to the ultimate point of the discussion; the Saw Stop is an effective safety device but there is more work to do before we have a consummate solution.

5. I have no qualms about moving this post but I think regaling about a valuable safety feature will mislead potential buyers if not all the pertinent data concerning said feature are discussed. Perhaps they could include a link to this discussion wherever it is put?


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## LittleAl (Nov 6, 2010)

This 'review' makes me miss the people who hate SawStops because they think it breeds carelessness.


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## jonmulzer (Feb 7, 2011)

I appreciate the original poster's intentions, but this is not the correct area for this. In my mind, it is not even a concern. People defeat safety features all the time. I would wager that most of us do not even use the blade guard, which is defeating the most important and basic safety feature.

These saws have been around for a few years now and no one is up in arms because they go off prematurely all the time. It really is non-point. If every five years the blade brake activates and costs you $200, it really is not that big of a deal. If sometime in the decades you own it, it saves your fingers from even a few stitches you are still money ahead. When you use a Sawstop, you are going to have less trepidation when you make a cut. You will have less of those thoughts in the back of your head that if something goes wrong you might have to come up with a new way to open your beer. (that you enjoy only after being done with all of the power tools, hehe)

Completely non-point and definitely in the wrong area. If you want to append it to the end of someone else's Sawstop review in the comments section, you can go ahead. Even though that is not the correct place either really.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

[have to find a] new way to open your beer
Which is what all safety measures are designed to prevent


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

I'm currently working on a review of the Powermatic PM2000-a saw I've never used.

Stay tuned…...


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

^I love that saw, Neil. I don't have one either, but I want one Five stars.


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## jonmulzer (Feb 7, 2011)

We should put breathalyzers on saws next. But if they register a false positive it would ruin a $200 detector cartridge. Better lay off the Listerine before you go to the shop. I always like to have fresh breath when I work maple. Pine is not so picky.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

*Al*: IMHO, though, there's no comparison between the PM2000, and-say-an older Northfield or Oliver-two other saw I've never even seen.

I'll work on reviews of those, next 

Man. I should get PAID for this !


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

LOL, Jon and Neil. Seriously though, seek out an old 12" Oliver and strike a long hard gaze at it. The PM2000 has roots there, but they invoke totally different emotions. It's kind of like the current season of the Bachelor and those long before it. That actually made me lol IRL. I couldn't even type it seriously. The PM makes me want to put a shiny Starrett in my apron pocket. The Oliver makes me want to force angle iron through it. Different emotions. Like Debbie Gibson and Brittney Spears.


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

*"We should put breathalyzers on saws next. But if they register a false positive it would ruin a $200 detector cartridge. Better lay off the Listerine before you go to the shop. I always like to have fresh breath when I work maple. Pine is not so picky."*

If they do that then they should put tail lights on cars, Damn if I will buy a government mandated car with tail lights. In my state the government actually inspects your car once a year and if you don't have tail lights they won't let you drive the car. Gastapo!


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## jonmulzer (Feb 7, 2011)

Everyone in favor of this "review" going to the trash, say "Aye"


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## 308Gap (Mar 6, 2010)

Thats 5 minutes of reading I will never get back . I want a refund !!!


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## Jimi_C (Jul 17, 2009)

"Burying it in some forum would likely hide it from those looking for reviews which include all of the important data."

Sorry, this is nonsense. Nine times out of ten, when I google something relating to wood working something from LJ's forum or blogs is in the top 10 results. Your "review" is going to get "buried" just as much as those will.


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## glassyeyes (Apr 14, 2009)

I agree that only owners or users with meaningful experience with tools should review them, and also note that I look at various forums frequently. I wonder if the counter person in question actually sold SawStops, or just didn't like them. I've had a SawStop for two years now. I triggered it by not paying attention to the position of my aluminum miter fence. I had a Forrest blade on at the time. I'M STILL GLAD I BOUGHT THE SAW.

Given the price of a UniSaw (and others), I think cost is not a reasonable issue in this matter. Also, testimony before the CPSC indicates that the manufacturing cost of the brake system is on the order of $100-150, if memory serves. I hope these discussions can focus on the issues of government-mandated safety, and whether or not the government should modify or revoke the patent in the public interest.

PS Forrest informed me that it could examine the blade and tell me if it was repairable (3 teeth were damaaged and one knocked off by the brake). I am waiting until i have something else to be resharpened before I send it in.


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## Dusty56 (Apr 20, 2008)

The 5 stars must be for the bypass key pictured above ???
1200 views by LJ's thinking they were going to read an actual review by an *experienced SS owner.* 
Sorry folks , just gossip and nonsense here. : (


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

Neil - IMHO, though, there's no comparison between the PM2000, and-say-an older Northfield or Oliver-two other saw I've never even seen.

For some reason this brought to mind Cliff Clavin's classic response to Final Jeopardy:


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## Dusty56 (Apr 20, 2008)

ChuckV ….ROFLMAO !!! Thank you


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

EXACTLY, *Chuck*, although-to be fair-I bet three hundred bucks !


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## Manitario (Jul 4, 2010)

Well done Chuck, thanks for that!


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## stevenmadden (Dec 10, 2009)

*Steve Donnelly*: Just curious, which part of this "*review*" did you find useful? Was it the informed opinion of a seasoned user of the product under *review*? Was it the detailed *review* of a product that included the purchasing experience of the product, assembly of the product, use of the product, etc., that you are interested in purchasing yourself? Or was it the hard data that was used to make a valid point pertaining to the *review* of this product? The only one suffering from PMS is the original poster, and that would be *P*eripheral *M*isinformation *S*yndrome.

By the way, I have read and re-read the original post, and his subsequent reply and still can't figure out what he is talking about or what his point is. To call this "*review*" useful is a bit of a stretch…

Steven

By the way, I anxiously await more "*reviews*" from members who have absolutely no experience with the product under review and have no idea what they are talking about. This can be, after all, very useful.


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## JGM0658 (Aug 16, 2011)

Ok, I am one of those who does not really mind when a post is made in the wrong place. Mistakes happen or the rules can be bend a bit….but this one is really a stretch. You are doing a review of a saw you do not own based on what people told you? Even worse, it is not a favorable review and you still give it 5 stars?

You don't see what is wrong with this picture?


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Steve doesn't see anything wrong with it.


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## 747DRVR (Mar 18, 2009)

I saw Tommy Mac use a sawstop on his podcast.I also saw Norm use a unisaw on his TV show.I give both of these saws 5 stars.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

^Huge LOL!!!!!!


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## lj61673 (Oct 31, 2011)

Me, I'm not so quick to judge…I'm waiting for Horizontal Mike's review of this review…


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## JGM0658 (Aug 16, 2011)

I saw Tommy Mac use a sawstop on his podcast.I also saw Norm use a unisaw on his TV show.I give both of these saws 5 stars.

Ok, count me in as one of the experts, I saw John Economaki use a SS as well on one of his videos. Then again lj61673 is correct, what does the self appointed Robin Hood of lumberjocks has to say…..


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

^Steve disapproves of these posts.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

"I wish I had as much time as some of you commentators"

Anybody else catch the irony, in that ??


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

or that ?


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Winner: 191 words
Loser: (NBeener): 79 words
Comentator with the most spare time to criticize, apparently: Bertha


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## TrentFysty (Mar 18, 2011)

I would agree that this post does not belong in the reviews section. With that said I wanted to add my comments. I cut my left-hand middle finger on my table saw this January. I can tell you that I was using all the normal safty gear and it was a very freak accident that happened. Fortunately I only lost the tip and I have full functionality in my left hand. The cost for me, out of pocket is about $1500 with the co-pays and such. Obviously that is less expenisve then the cost of a SawStop but there are other factors to consider. The downtime as a result of the accident was about 6 weeks. That means I didn't do any woodworking for 6 weeks. While woodworking is not my primary source of income it did cause me a loss of income. If you depend on woodworking for income then a table saw injury could cause many more problems then just the cost of hand surgery.

While the SawStop may not be perfect in every sense of the word it is the only safety device of its type on the market. It's been out long enough and sold enough saws that other saw makers should have had that chance to develop their own system. The question is why they haven't? Liability is a huge issue. If the SawStop ever fails to engage when it should have and the owner has not done anything to bypass it, imagine the lawsuit that will result.

While I don't agree that the government should step in a mandate this type of safety feature I do see that there is sufficient interest to keep the company alive. A "false" activation is bound to happen and if someone can figure out a way to be able to reset the system without having to buy a new blade or cartridge then awesome. I find it hard to believe that you can stop a blade turning that fast quickly enough to avoid injuring the user and stil not damage the blade. That's a lot of force that has to go somewhere. I look at it like airbags; no one complains that you can't reset the airbags in your car. Bottom line is the airbags reduce the injuries to the degree that people accept the cost associated with having to replace them.

So you are out $180 if the thing "false" triggers. Don't cut wet wood or wood with metal in it. If you are cutting wet wood often enough to worry about a false trigger then purchase a Home Depot blade and at least reduce the cost of a false trigger. How many people cut pressure-treated wood with their $100+ blade? How many people cut wood that may have metal in it with their $100+ blade? Flase triggers aside I don't want my expensive blades hitting any metal in my wood. Buy a metal detector, it will pay for itself.

Bottom line, I am going to purchase a SawStop. While I am very careful around my woodworking tools, accidents happen and I don't want a repeat. If you don't like the SawStop then don't buy one. If the government steps in to mandate it and you don't like it, then vote your congressmen out of office. Please don't review a product that you have never used and then site hearsay to backup your statement. More information is needed like how many SawStop saws have been sold since the introduction, out of those how many replacement cartriges have been sold as a result of "false" activiation (remember that hitting metal is a known cause of activiation that SawStop warns against wet wood is another.) If, infact, the safety feature activated when the wood was neither wet or there was not conductive material imbedded in the wood, then there is a problem. Those activations would be cause for concern and I would be contacting SawStop for a free replacement cartridge and a new blade. I would like to know how many of those type of activations have taken place. You can't just make a general "SawStop has problems" statement without hard facts to back it up. You didn't site how many cartridges that parts guy has sold, why each one was sold and there is no baseline to compare it to.

SawStop is like Festool, some will swear buy it and other will swear against it. Bottom line, it's your choice. As for me and my remaining 9 digits, I am going SawStop because nothing else even comes close.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Trent, that was a well-thought out and informative post. I couldn't agree more with you about the machine. We will always argue back and forth about the legalities, legislation, and the fact that the originator is a scumbag lawyer. That being said, however, they could have placed this technology on a cheaply built machine. They did quite the opposite, as the SawStop is by all accounts, a very well made machine. The cost of a misfire is simply a matter of insurance. A tree falls on your house and you're out the homeowners' deductible. We pay for insurance every day, wagering the expense against potential future expenses. I don't believe that SawStop makes anyome more careless; I just don't buy it. What will happen with the legislation is really anyone's guess.
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I'm one that is so offended by the legal wranglings that I'd have a hard time buying the saw. Like you said clearly, though, that's my decision. I'm in a profession where if I lost a finger pursuing my hobby, I'd be totally screwed professionally. I'm also petty and vain; and I hate the appearance of the machine. Petty stuff, sure, but for now at least, my stubbornness prevents me from considering the machine.
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Good post.


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## ccweems (Apr 9, 2011)

Obviously some of you have a lot more time than me.

I guess the true gist of my comment is that while the Saw Stop is a proven finger retainer it is not perfect and as such we should encourage the company to continue its product development as well as encourage other companies to join the fray. One of Saw Stop's challenges is that it is currently forced to take a unilateral approach: one mechanism is good for all blades (yes, I know about the dado version). I expect that if the saw blade participated in the safety system cheaper and simpler methods could arise.

My first thought was to have blades consistently perforated to some degree, allowing a cross bolt to engage and quickly stop the blade (imagine a stick stuck in the spokes of your bike). For those beginning to bare their teeth this meager suggestion is only meant to start a technical discussion about possible blade brake designs that most certainly shouldn't be in the review section.

It's obvious LumberJocks has many sharp tongues, perhaps there are a few sharp wits that can improve on the state of the art?


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## jonmulzer (Feb 7, 2011)

So now instead of them only cornering the market on saws with safety features, you would like them to design a system that ONLY works with their blades also? Sorry man, your point just keeps getting more ridiculous.

The design is fine the way it is. Very rarely, and through operator error, it might register a false positive that you can fix for <$200. Not a big deal. If you use the saw properly, no problems.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

*My first thought was to have blades consistently perforated to some degree, allowing a cross bolt to engage and quickly stop the blade (imagine a stick stuck in the spokes of your bike).*
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Actually, this is a pretty decent idea, as it could perhaps save the blade. You could even let the inertia carry the bolt into a padded stop. It seems more sensical than burying it in a slab of aluminum. 
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*Obviously some of you have a lot more time than me.*
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But man, did you really have to say that? You're clearly a bright guy; that comment doesn't befit you. I'd love to see a thread devoted to the discussion of possible future saw safety features. Unfortunately, SawStop threads get heated unnecessarily.


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## TrentFysty (Mar 18, 2011)

Tech discussions are fun. The thing that impresses me about the SawStop is that it stops the blade in .003 seconds. That is 5 times faster then an airbag deploys in your car. The challenge is stopping that much force quickly enough to actually protect the user.

The idea of a bolt is interesting but there is still a lot of force being placed on that bold to stop the blade. I would imagine that the bolt would tear the blade up pretty good. The second thing is you have to figure out how to shove the bolt into the perforations while the blade is spinning at 3450 RPM. How do you get the bolt to not skip over the perforations? You have to absorb all of that energy or the shock would trasfer to the arbor, trunion and motor and that would not be good. Just a thought.

There are a lot of creative people out there that can come up with solutions to this problem. It makes me wonder why, in the last 6 years, no one has brought it to market? Is it cost, is it liability, there has to be a reason why SawStop is the only one out there. Surely Delta, Powermatic, etc have the ability to design something in house but there is something keeping them from doing so.

You can check out whirlwindtool which has a safety device they are working on. It's not nearly as seamless as the sawstop but it's a start. I agree with the idea of more competition in this area would be awesome!


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## ccweems (Apr 9, 2011)

I try to be careful but it's not working…

Saw Stop blades?

Where did this come from? The aforementioned post included a comment about lawnmower safety. The government standard only came about careful consideration of the lawnmower manufacturers (blade brakes) and engine suppliers (engine brakes). I expect the same will eventually come from the equipment and blade manufacturers. Admittedly the universe of equipment and blade manufacturers is far more diverse than the lawnmower suppliers so this won't come easily.

If perchance a perforated blade approach is chosen a standard would be published and all blade manufacturers would follow that standard if they chose. With the wide spread use of lasers cutting various features into current blades this could be implemented quickly albeit at some additional cost as productivity would suffer (more cutting, less production). The careful reader will notice that I did not suggest that SS enter into the blade business but left the parentage of this concept unattributed. I do worry about sound. A spinning perforated disk is essentially half of a siren. This concept was offered at the beginning as starting point of a technical debate and so it remains.

Hurt feelings?

My comment about others use of their time purposely left out names to allow the guilty to self identify publicly or quietly to themselves. It would have been churlish for me to call out individuals by name in this forum widely known for its civility and decorum. For myself I have decided my talents would best be spent on technical issues. I'm sure as a fevered fanboy of Fein and Festool I expect there are many wrongs that need to be righted.

Adieu


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

I am not a mechanical engineer, but I think that the idea of the aluminum brake is that it acts as a "crumple zone" to dissipate the energy of the spinning blade and motor. I think that if you stuck a bolt into a hole in the blade, something would have to give.

The analogy of the stick in the bicycle spokes is a good one. Either the stick breaks, the spokes break, or the bike flips over.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

*to allow the guilty to self identify quietly to themselves or publicly*
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I guess I chose publicly. No hurt feelings here; that expression is simply a peeve of mine, being the kind of stuff heard in middle management office cubicles.
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*I'm sure as a fevered fanboy of Fein and Festool I expect there are many wrongs that need to be righted.*
.
That was a nice lick, though I do like me some Fein and Festool but like SawStop, that's a whole 'nother heated argument. 
.
Good exchange.


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## jonmulzer (Feb 7, 2011)

ccweems, manufacturers do not just design something and then give out the specs for free. The blade manufacturers would have to license the ability to use it, as well as license the right to put "Sawstop Compatible" on their packaging. This does not come for free. More than likely, just like the Sawstop hardware, the blades would become proprietary.

The beauty of their system, is that it works with ANY 10" blade. So some putz, puts a regular blade into their saw and has a mishap, instead of the brake working he loses fingers. Then you get sued, and they win. It has to work with existing blades and existing ways of doing things.

And why are we even talking about this?? Millions of cuts are made each year with Sawstop saws. Maybe a few hundred false positives. Even if there are tens of thousands of them, they are ALL due to user error. Every, single, one of them. You have the idea for a solution that is looking for a problem.

Your idea so far would quite likely wreck the arbor, trunnion and bearings. That is going to cost a wee bit more than $200 for a cartridge and blade.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

^Chuck, what if the whole assembly dropped below the table surface and was allowed to swing into either a barrier, a series of baffles, a brake, etc.? I'm not an engineer either but I've hurt myself in all manners possible with various contraptions as a kid. The only thing I learned is that energy has to go somewhere


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

The figured out how to make machine guns shoot BETWEEN the blades of spinning propellers, a long time ago, so … timing a bolt to "thread the needle" shouldn't be such a huge deal … if that IS the way to go.

But … something would probably have to give, in THAT equation, too. Making the bolt strong enough to stop the blade (quickly enough), but soft enough to deform, and become the low-cost "wear part" would be a neat trick.

Yeah. The hope IS that this WILL spur innovation that will benefit the consumer, in the end.

And that Al will post a picture of himself in his overalls.

Not in that order, necessarily, but … well … you know what I mean.


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## jonmulzer (Feb 7, 2011)

If you want to stop a blade as fast as Sawstop, you are going to have to impact it. I don't see anyway around it. If you try to stop a 10" blade turning at 3,000-4,000rpm in 3 milliseconds without hitting the blade, it will just loosen itself and keep spinning.

What causes false positives? Cutting metal and wet wood. So don't cut wet wood, or hit the bypass button that is already there. If you cut metal with a carbide blade (I am talking about nails and such, aluminum is a different story and then just hit the bypass button) you will likely ruin the blade anyway. Now we are just talking about the price of a cartridge.

I guess I just don't understand the big deal. I also don't understand why this post has not been deleted or moved yet? It is IN THE WRONG SECTION.


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

The dado blade implementation would also be a challenge.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

^Jon, I guess since it's in the wrong section, some of us no good commentators just decided to shoot the breeze. I think you're probably right about the impact. Way I's sees it: if you spent $150,000 on a car, you probably wouldn't run off shrieking at a $200 oil change. I think it's a pricey saw with some pricey safety features that come with a price. I really don't think the price is that high. I just don't like that piano black cabinet, but Neil sure does. I bet his crate looks like swiss cheese now, for all the holes he's poked for a peek. Overalls shot coming soon


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## jonmulzer (Feb 7, 2011)

I just love it how he says that, "Holy Crap!! Sawstops are POS's because every great once in a while it fires when it shouldn't and that costs money." Then, nearly everyone here says that it is not that big of a deal and it is nonpoint. Then, WE are the assholes. Majority rules. When ccweems is anointed dictator, then he can make it into an issue. For now, it is the best and only safety device of its kind on the market. Price and the ethics of the owner are a completely different discussion.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

I have never TOUCHED the stack of crates + boxes [see note] since the day it arrived.

Pinky-swear.

Dado would have to be ramped and pinned, ensuring that the holes through which the bolt fired … were always aligned, no matter how many chippers you used.

See ? We're close (on the easy stuff).

[note]: I got ALL the gizmos, so there's a BIG pile of boxes out there. And …. *Al*? They SELL mustard yellow paint, you know


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

*Jon*: trying to distinguish between the saw and the company owner … won't win you any friends around here ;-)

[come on, All. Just kidding !!]


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

My saw doesn't have insurance, if that's what you meant ;-)


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

^lol, Wudn A SawStop is just one of many things owed to me by you and everyone else. My shop was robbed a couple of weeks ago (which may explain my nasty behavior of late, incidentally). But it made me appreciate massive chunks of American made steel much more thoroughly. Remember how hard it was to get that Unisaw, PM2000, SS, or other massive cabinet saw into your shop? Well, it's just as hard for the criminals and they probably won't have benefit of daylight. Just thinking out loud here, too


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## JGM0658 (Aug 16, 2011)

Ah hah….I will use ccweems logic if I ever hit other car with mine, I will climb off and get mad and tell the person, "what is the matter with you, why are you in my way, you obviously have more time than I do?!?" 

As for saw stop, it has been around for a few years already, everybody, and I mean everybody who has heard of SS knows it trips on metal or wet wood. It is like owning a Mercedes, basic service is $400, walking alive from an accident priceless..SS blades and break $200, keeping all your appendages priceless…. All is well in SS land…


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## Manitario (Jul 4, 2010)

How about a saw with an airbag that slams your hand out of the way if you touch the blade? Could be called a "Sawbag". Al, we could even paint it yellow so it'd look like a Powermatic…


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## Dusty56 (Apr 20, 2008)

LMAO !! 
Can we put this thread out of its misery yet ? 
It didn't make any sense in the beginning and has gone downhill from there. (with a few exceptions) Hahaha


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

Interesting.

Although …. the only thing that makes SS threads turn into flame-fests IS the politics. It's NOT the saw. It's NOT the technology.

Maybe we can leave the politics out of it, since … there's nothing new under the sun, in that regard ??


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

[deep inhale]

The subject of whether Gass's, or similar, technology will become mandatory IS nothing new, and it IS what the flame wars are about.

I think there's plenty of fuel for the flame wars, already, and a roughly ZERO chance that anything is going to change anybody's mind about the politics.

I run nothing-not here, and not in my house (LOL !). I DO, however, think the politics of SS have been done to death.

YMMV.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

Have a good day, Steve.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Then a good tomorrow to you, Steve. This was a pretty mild SawStop discussion, from the ones I've been in In fact, everyone have a great weekend (even you, Gass)


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## LittleAl (Nov 6, 2010)

As if there weren't enough reasons to get the hell out of California before…the nanny state grows (I love my sawstop but also love my $100 jobsite tabletop saw).


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## ccweems (Apr 9, 2011)

I can't help myself.

The bill http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/11-12/bill/asm/ab_2201-2250/ab_2218_bill_20120224_introduced.pdf looks like it was written with the help of SS which is not evil, it makes sense. The legislator would look pretty stupid if he specified a specific performance threshold and nothing was available (not that such details bother Californians).

Assuming it passes you definitely won't be able to buy unguarded (SS style) *new* table saws *12" and under*. I'm expecting that there will be a significant inventory found of slightly used or refurbished table saws that do not fall under this law. Also, it is limited to saws with blades "a nominal 12" and under. I wonder why the 12" limit? I don't see anything but 10" saws on the SS website. Will the current design handle 12" saws? I can imagine that adding an inch of material (both sides) on the outside edge represent a substantial increase in momentum which possibly the current system might not be able to absorb. Now if the bill passes and SS immediately introduces a 12" SS saw then perhaps the conspiracy theorists are right.

Upon passage of the bill I can see Jet, Grizzly and similar firms looking at their 12" saws and seeing if they could squeeze in an extra inch which would move these saws out of the purview of the new law. Moreover I expect that SS is being the good guy and licensing the SS as built into the table saw for cheap however the manufacturers will have to buy all SS brake cartridges at only a modest discount off of list. The original SS patent was awarded in 2004 and a new patent on the new cartridge design in 2010 so SS needs to make the best of this opportunity.

Evil idea. Equipment manufacturers get license and buy SS cartridges but they are not sold nor assembled in the saw. You purchase your inexpensive table saw and cartridge separately and immediately return the cartridge for credit and purchase a "Diagnostic Plug" so that you can trouble shoot saw problems without the SS cartridge firing needlessly.

It's Friday obviously I have too much time on my hands. In any case I expect clever lads will figure out a way around the law. How many years would Delta be able to sell refurbished 2014 Unisaws? I'm betting until the SS patent horizons are passed.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

*I can't help myself.*
LOL! I know exactly how you feel! I can't tell you the number of times I've sworn off these kinds of conversations 
.
This is a wonderful post and I agree that something fishy is afoot. I think that manufacturers will probably try to exploit loopholes rather than pay royalties. I'd be perfectly fine with a 12" tablesaw if I could afford blades for it. This is going to be really interesting to watch play out. It interests me from a public health standpoint and many others. Time will tell, right?


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## stevenmadden (Dec 10, 2009)

*ccweems*: Please go back and read your original comment, uh sorry, I mean *review*. Now, read your last comment (or is that a *review* also, I'm confused). Okay, now explain to me in one sentence or less what you are actually talking about, or what the point of this "*review*" is.

By the way, I am a "Califonian" (have been all my life) and this type of legislation bothers me very much.

*Bertha*: Do you really believe this is a "wonderful" post? I can point you to some really wonderful and enlightening discussions regarding this topic that have taken place over the past several years, one of which will not be in the *review* section on LumberJocks.

*Steve Donnelly*: I think the point that many have been trying to make, to no avail, is that this does not belong in the *review* section. When I navigate to LumberJocks, the first thing I see is a series of tabs labeled "Projects", "Blogs", "Reviews", "Forums", "Videos", "Shops", "Classes", and "Jocks". I can think of several places that this point (a subject/controversy that hasn't been brought up anywhere else, right?) could have been made, but "*reviews*" is not one of them. So, yes (Chap?), this is in the wrong place.

*Everyone*: To answer the questions that will come after I hit the "Post this comment" button, yes, I do have my panties in a bunch, yes, I have too much time on my hands, and yes, I am suffering from PMS, etc. Simple solution; move this "discussion" to an appropriate section.

When I see a *review* titled "All is not perfect in Saw Stop Land" with a picture of the start/stop switch, I click on it. As a SawStop owner (or if I were a potential SawStop owner), I am interested in the experience of other SawStop owners, especially if there are potential problems. Hopefully you can see where my "problem" with this kind of arbitrary "*review*" comes from. If I wanted more of this kind of discussion, I could find it in a blog post, a forum, a video, FineWoodworking.com, Popular Woodworking.com, and list could go on and on.

Steven


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

Weetabix:

If you're ready to judge the 37,000,000 people who live in California (harshly) by the posts of a single person, then you might find yourself very much at home with the illogical mis-informed wing-nuts on the "Do We Need a New President" thread.

All the best….


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## buffalosean (Feb 15, 2009)

*ccweens*,
You might see 12"-14" saws. The Old Powermatic 68 and 72 excepted 12 - 14 inch blades. A few other models took 12 and 14 inch blades as well. If that technicality can get saw manufactures off the hook, you might see that trend come back. I believe powermatic has a strictly 14" saw on the market right now.

IF there is a loop-hole, the lawyers will find it and exploit it. It will be interesting to see how this one plays out.

Steven, someone posted something in the wrong place. If it was such a waste of your time, move on. It not healthy to get worked up over some so insignificant.


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## mbs (May 8, 2010)

I own the saw, love the saw and have had no misfires.


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## glassyeyes (Apr 14, 2009)

305mm is all it would take to escape the regs. Who knew 2 tenths of a millimeter could be so big?


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Stevemadden, yes, I actually think it was a great post; not the original post in the wrong section, but the subsequent discussion. And yes, I've been around long enough to participate in several SS discussions. They haven't swayed me, but I was there. It's in the wrong place, but that doesn't prevent us from discussing it. No big deal. No reason for anyone to get nasty about it.


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## jm8 (Jan 26, 2012)

I REVIEWED all the comments, and I wholeheartedly agree with you Steve….......... Donnelly!


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Jm8 doesn't approve. You guys run the website, so why haven't you moved it?


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## mcase (Oct 31, 2009)

Huh? What? Some guy said? False activations - as in I cut a piece on metal and it went off? I've had this saw for five years and NEVER had an activation. That's my review


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## OldLarry (Jun 23, 2012)

We've had our Saw Stop for 5 years. The safety system has been triggered 4 times. Once cutting aluminum, once cutting plated plastic and twice by an employees hand. We try not to use wet wood in our work so I don't know about that one. You can turn off the safety to cut problem materials. It comes back on the next time you start the saw. People that don't have the product can argue about it's supposed "problems" but I'll take the $280 in cartridge costs as opposed to the two hand injuries that would have occurred!


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## Stevenjones3 (Jan 20, 2011)

This is a great place for it otherwise I wouldn't have come across it. Stop whining. If this becomes the norm on all saws then the price will drop too.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

Why would this be a review? This one should be removed as you have reviewed nothing.


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## Dusty56 (Apr 20, 2008)

*He gave it 5 stars though ….it must mean something to someone !!! * 
Sadly ,This whole review forum has become useless : (


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## ccweems (Apr 9, 2011)

SS brake alternatives

General idea is to have a disc brake acting on the sides of the saw blade. The SS is more like a drum brake as it acts on what is essentially a cylinder. If you can find the room you could have brake disk pads engage the blade sides without damaging the blade. I expect the energy and speed requirements would dictate a replaceable explosive device similar to SS. It wouldn't be cheap but your blade shouldn't be damaged. Dado blades can be made to work.

In fact most car drum brakes use the engagement of the first shoe to add additional force to the second shoe. This self engagement feature allowed cars equipped exclusively with drum brakes to eliminate the need for a power booster. Second idea is to use the blade momentum to increase contact pressure much as the SS does. The way to do this is to have opposing and mirrored decreasing radius cams with the rotating blade between them. Each cam is spring loaded so that once released it engages the blade. The cams have a heat treated knurled finish that will engage the blade if enough pressure is applied. The cams axes of rotation are parallel and are perpendicular to the blade arbor axis. When triggered each cam engages the blade whose momentum only increases the retardation force. This approach may work without pyrotechnics. Dados could be designed to work.

With respect to patents I expect the SS design involves novelty on the event detection as well as blade retardation. The blade brake patent claims appear comparatively easy to circumvent however the event detection claims don't leave much wiggle room.

With respect to California these alternate SS designs may not amount to much. I expect that once the SS legislation is enforced table saws will disappear from big box and local hardware stores. The complaints from their constituents will likely force a change in the law or a delay in its implementation beyond the effective date of the original SS patents. Should this happen inexpensive SS designs may be available as will cheaper third party supplies of cartridges to fit SS equipment.

With respect to this forum I've discovered perpetual motion…


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## lj61673 (Oct 31, 2011)

"*Can't this be moved / deleted and put into a forum conversation? LJ's reviews are credible, lets not ruin it."*

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha…............


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## mcase (Oct 31, 2009)

Hey! there's a machine a I don't own, have never used, and do not understand. But, some guy somewhere that I talked to said something critical about it. So I'm now going to review that machine. Here goes: some guy somewhere said…...... yada yada yada. Oh! and by the way the guy's criticism is nonsense because what he described is the machine functioning exactly as its supposed to do. If either the guy or myself had so much as read the directions for the machine we would both know this. Well that's my review - hope it was helpful!


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## OldLarry (Jun 23, 2012)

Original post was the sort of thing that makes no sense as a "review." Where is the site control?


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## ssnvet (Jan 10, 2012)

Whether or not this guys post constitutes a legitimate review or not, the subject he raises is an important one for discussion….

Here's the review that thoroughly addresses the topic of false trips.


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