# Pocket Hole Problems



## wmgworks (Sep 14, 2015)

I'm trying to build a set of saw horses. All 2×4 construction. One side of the set of legs is attached to he stretcher by pocket holes.. The other leg is attached to that leg via a hinge so they can fold up. Legs are mitered at 19 deg. The problem I'm having is the pocket screws do not seem to be grabbing the material correctly. This is my first time using pocket holes so I'm sure I'm doing something wrong here. I set the depth of the drill bit to 1 1/2" (the max on the K4) and the height of the holes to 1 1/2" (the max). I'm using coarse 2 1/1" kreg screws. On the end opposite this one, I actually pushed the screw through the stretcher a tiny bit. In this picture it shows that the unthreaded part has pushed through the leg. What am I doing wrong here?


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

I'm not surprised because pocket holes are one of the weakest joinery methods.

Use construction screws with or without glue.


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## hotbyte (Apr 3, 2010)

Looks like the hole is drilled too deep letting the unthreaded shank of screw extend past surface of wood. If the miter is on the piece you are drilling holes, the angle could be throwing everything off.


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## wmerritt76 (Dec 15, 2015)

Its what rwe2156 said, pocket holes are just not strong. A mortise and Tenon or some other joint would work.


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## builtinbkyn (Oct 29, 2015)

Are you overdriving the screws? Meaning - countersinking them past the depth stop of the pocket because the torque of the driver is set too high? Also, the joint needs to be clamped before the screw is applied or it will push the opposing member out of alignment.

I don't agree with the assessments that pocket hole joinery is "just not strong" or "one of the weakest joinery methods", especially coupled with glue. However, though the other methods of joinery are stronger, they too are not always appropriate just as pocket holes aren't always appropriate. M&T doesn't work very well with plywood and other materials, where screws and glue excel.

Edit: The video was done well. Just wondering why the person who did the testing didn't use glue with the pocket hole joints. That would probably make for a much better comparison. No arguing the other methods aren't stronger. That's an accepted principle.


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## SirIrb (Jan 12, 2015)

Pocket screws are neither the second coming or El Diablo.

They are great in a production environment (with a machine, not jig) for face frames.

But as stated above, with saw horses glue it and screw it and forget it. I dont see pocket screws/holes buying a thing.

Face frames are about as fast and stronger if you have a boring machine.

Sorry to get off topic there.

Steve
Who has made more than his share of pocket holes and dowel holes, and if he believed voting made any difference would cast his for dowels.
Vote Dowels: Its for the children.


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## wmgworks (Sep 14, 2015)

Here is the video of Steve Ramsey making them so I know the pocket hole screws will work for this.

http://woodworking.formeremortals.net/2014/06/build-a-folding-sawhorse/

I watched Steve put these things in over and over and over. All he does is prop the leg on his shoulder for support and screw it down into the cross member. I didn't see him use any clamps or glue.

It's entirely possible I overdrove the screws I guess. I'm also just starting to use an impact driver for the first time. How deep into the pocket hole should the head of the screw be?


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## MT_Stringer (Jul 21, 2009)

For those of you that complain about poor joints with pocket hole sccews,,,I don't think you have given them a fair shake. I use them for all sorts of stuff. The screws used by themselves hold really well.

I think the OP just needs to improve his technique. After all, it is his first time. It will get better.


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## wmgworks (Sep 14, 2015)

> Pocket screws are neither the second coming or El Diablo.
> 
> They are great in a production environment (with a machine, not jig) for face frames.
> 
> ...


I think the reason he used Pocket holes maybe was to hide the screws underneath so you have less of a chance of hitting them with a saw blade. Not necessarily for a stronger joint (my guess). I saw this video a long time ago and was planning on just countersinking screws from the cross member into the legs instead of the other way around because I didn't have a pocket hole jig at the time. Then one was generously gifted to me so I moved forward with the original concept.


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## Reaperwoodworks (Nov 4, 2015)

I disagree with pocket holes not being strong also. Different joinery works for different projects. It looks like maybe to much torque is being applied and the screws are being driven in too far. If you have the holes set 1-1/2" from from the edge and you are seeing that much of the smooth shank, that has to be whats happening.

On a side note, and I know you are pressed for space in your shop, but these are some quick, down and dirty sawhorses that work great. I just built a pair this morning: Sawhorses


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## wmgworks (Sep 14, 2015)

> For those of you that complain about poor joints with pocket hole sccews,,,I don t think you have given them a fair shake. I use them for all sorts of stuff. The screws used by themselves hold really well.
> 
> I think the OP just needs to improve his technique. After all, it is his first time. It will get better.
> 
> - MT_Stringer


Thanks, Mike. That's my thought, too. After I had this failure I went back to the Mere Mortals community threads on the build and saw no one else having this complaint. So I was pretty sure it was something I was doing. I'm not going to go to pocket hole screws every time Just Because. I'd like to make this work because i know it should, though.


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## wmgworks (Sep 14, 2015)

> I disagree with pocket holes not being strong also. Different joinery works for different projects. It looks like maybe to much torque is being applied and the screws are being driven in too far. If you have the holes set 1-1/2" from from the edge and you are seeing that much of the smooth shank, that has to be whats happening.
> 
> On a side note, and I know you are pressed for space in your shop, but these are some quick, down and dirty sawhorses that work great. I just built a pair this morning: Sawhorses
> 
> - Reaperwoodworks


I think I ended up pushing them too far, too. But I kept pushing them because they didn't feel like they were grabbing the cross member. There was always a little gap there. How far should the head of the screw be inside of the pocket hole?

I watched Jay's video as well. Those are probably much easier to build than these. I really dig the way the one's I am doing fold up, though.


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## hotbyte (Apr 3, 2010)

> I think I ended up pushing them too far, too. But I kept pushing them because they didn t feel like they were grabbing the cross member. *There was always a little gap there. *How far should the head of the screw be inside of the pocket hole?
> 
> I watched Jay s video as well. Those are probably much easier to build than these. I really dig the way the one s I am doing fold up, though.
> 
> - wmgworks


When using pocket holes, the two pieces need to be clamped/held together before driving the screw. They do not pull the joint together.


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## ShaneA (Apr 15, 2011)

Yeah, clamping them together will do wonders for keeping them aligned, flush, and setting the screws properly. Used properly… pocket holes can make strong joints. Maybe not heirloom or extra points for being fancy, but easy and certainly have a place.


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## paratrooper34 (Apr 27, 2010)

My thoughts were the same as the two above me; you need to clamp the joint together (firmly) before driving the screws in. If you fail to do that, the result will be a separated joint as seen in the OP's picture. Clamp them together and try again.


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## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

I am not a fan of using the impact driver for pocket hole screws. I am better with a drill driver as I can better feel how far they are going in. I tend to over drive them with an impact driver.


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## wmgworks (Sep 14, 2015)

Great advice everyone, thanks. I don't own a right angle clamp, or any other Kreg type clamps. All I have are bar clamps. Any suggestions on clamping it up?

@RedOak49 I'll give the drill driver a try next time.

I have materials to build a second sawhorse so I'll try all of these ideas on the second go around


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## hotbyte (Apr 3, 2010)

Shop helper that can keep weight/force down on first screw?

A pipe clamp might work if you can find way to keep mitered leg from sliding.


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## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

Why not do what my old dad used to do? He spent $20 on a set of saw horse brackets They fold individually for storage and everything is square cuts & 6D nails.










You've spent way too much time on this already.

M


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## bbasiaga (Dec 8, 2012)

If you are using the Kreg jig for your pocket holes, remember to set the depth on the jig to the thickness of the material you are drilling in to, and the length of the drill stop to the length of the screw you are using.

It is set up so that the unthreaded shaft of the screw is just at the end of the board you drill the pocket in. That way it will have some power to pull the joint together. It looks to me like you are drilling the pocket too deep.

-Brian


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## wmgworks (Sep 14, 2015)

> You ve spent way too much time on this already.
> 
> M
> 
> - MadMark


I hear you. I'm in no rush though. I've just started woodworking so every project for me is a learning opportuni


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## wmgworks (Sep 14, 2015)

> If you are using the Kreg jig for your pocket holes, remember to set the depth on the jig to the thickness of the material you are drilling in to, and the length of the drill stop to the length of the screw you are using.
> 
> It is set up so that the unthreaded shaft of the screw is just at the end of the board you drill the pocket in. That way it will have some power to pull the joint together. It looks to me like you are drilling the pocket too deep.
> 
> ...


All materials are 2×4. The highest the k4 model goes up to is 1 1/2" for material or screws. I read around and figured I should use 2 1/2" screws for what I was doing. Does that sound right? I'm leaning towards 'I pushed it too far' as the problem.


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## hotbyte (Apr 3, 2010)

Sounds right…use this chart for reference.


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## clin (Sep 3, 2015)

> All materials are 2×4. The highest the k4 model goes up to is 1 1/2" for material or screws. I read around and figured I should use 2 1/2" screws for what I was doing. Does that sound right? I m leaning towards I pushed it too far as the problem.
> 
> - wmgworks


I think you've just figured it out. You're drilling a hole for a 1 1/2" screw and then using a 2 1/2" screws. The longer screws are going to have more un-threaded shank so it's coming through.

Since you are trying longer screws, I assume your are trying to get the screw to go deeper into the piece it's screwing into. While you could not drill as deep, you can only go so far before the head won't go below the surface.

In that case the hole really needs to be moved further back from the edge. Just as the Kreg guide would do. But then the screw won't exit the wood in the center. I.E., wood is still 1 1/2" think but you are drilling as if the material were 2 1/2" thick.

If you really want to use something longer than the 1 1/2", maybe just try 2" and not drill quite as deep.

As far as clamping, if you really, really want exact alignment, things have to be clamped really tight. The screw is pulling pieces at an angle. So as it pulls them together, it makes them slide across each other and out of alignment. So either it has to be clamped really tight, so the screw cannot pull it any tighter (really hard do do), or you have to set the initial position a bit off to anticipate the movement. Then the screws pulls it tighter and into alignment.

All that being said, these are saw horses and not fine furniture. Exact alignment isn't critical. And as others said, I'd throw some glue in the joint, even though the glue joint is pretty much just a but joint. Some glue is still adding some strength.


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## InstantSiv (Jan 12, 2014)

> Its what rwe2156 said, pocket holes are just not strong. A mortise and Tenon or some other joint would work.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I disagree… and so does this video


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## SirIrb (Jan 12, 2015)

The screws are quite large. larger than normal pocket screws.

It is not holding up a 4k lb car. it is holding up a fraction of the weight.

Did he make a strong joint? yes. Did he compare it to any other?-no.

So is this a strong joint?-yes. is a real pocket hole a strong joint?-yes. But apples for apples this video doesnt really prove anything. He doesnt compare it to M&T or Dowels. At the end of the day any of the listed joints would have held a fraction of the car. He was able to modify the concept of the pocket hole so that it held a fraction of a car.

Not sold.

I could have driven 4- 1/2" dowels through each side and held a fraction of a car.

I dont hate pocket holes. They have their place. As I said above I have used them tons to slap together faceframes. They work good for that.

I see pocket holes like beards. I have had a beard for 20 years but it just became cool to grow one in the last 2 years. Pocket holes are like beards. And soon everyone will start shaving and get the new look and people will sell their pocket hole jig for the new thing and everything will fall back to its rightful place: people will use pocket holes in limited places where they work well and make other, better options for other places.

EDIT:
I submit for you to ponder the amazing Bizkut Joiner and beards. Norm leading the charge, backed by some large companies, made everyone [hangs head in shame] including me think they must have this tool to make any joint.

[Everyone shaves their beard]

How about a pocket hole?

I will give them this: Pocket holes are far better than Bizkuts but their overuse has caused a fad.

EDIT 2:
Loose tennons.

[same as above]



> Its what rwe2156 said, pocket holes are just not strong. A mortise and Tenon or some other joint would work.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Mikesawdust (Jan 29, 2010)

I agree with most of the comments but not the reasoning. Pocket holes are not the strongest but some joinery doesn't need the strongest just a good hold with a hidden fastener. I've used pocket holes and they saved me on a few projects where my joinery skills failed me. 
To the question, normally the pcket holes from a kreg jig are sitting within 3/8" of the joining face once seated. if you want more wood in the joint, don't drill as deep but follow it up with a small bit so that the threads pass through the first piece unhindered. the settings on the jig for thickness are there to make the scew come out near the center of the wood, but the settings on the bit stop are for making it go deep in the wood, back this one to a shorter movement and drill out the center after.


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## MikeThrockmorton (Nov 4, 2013)

The "official" Kreg pocket hole screws are special. They have a narrow shank sized to go through the stepped pocket hole with little if any friction. If you use regular wood screws the larger shank will grab the narrow part of the pocket hole and force the joint apart.

Use the length of screws recommended by the kreg chart and use the kreg screws. A side note is that the pocket hole concept needs a screw with a flat bottomed head ( that is, not tapered). A taper can split the wood and in any case does not provide the strongest clamping force which is where a pocket hole joint gets what strength it has.


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## wmgworks (Sep 14, 2015)

@clin I think this is part of hte problem, too. I am trying to set the jig for materials it doesn't have settings for. And there are no charts for 2×4 material either. Also agree they don't have to be in perfect alignment. As long as the tops and shelf are realtively level that's the only requirement. If the legs are skewed off angle a bit no biggie.

@Mikesawdust You said the key word here, I think - hidden. The point of joining the legs this way isn't to make them super strong - it's to hide the fasteners I think.

Maybe if I describe my materials and what I am after, some of you can suggest the settings I need on the jig, bit and the screws I should use.

I have a 2×4 leg that is cut at a 19 degree bevel. I am drilling pockets into the face (the 4" wide side). The legs attach to the 4" side of another 2×4. Here is a pic of what they look like










How should I set the bit and jig, and what size screws should I use to do this? I didn't use 2 1/2" screws because I felt I needed a stronger joint - I just had no idea what size I needed because there were no settings or charts telling me what I should use.

I really appreciate everyone's thoughts on alternative saw horse designs and jointery methods. But this questions is about pocket holes specifically. This is a learning project for me and I know this should work. I agree 100,000,000% that pocket holes are not the End All and Be All of jointery. I agree each joint has it's place. One of the reasons for me to pick this project in the first place was to LEARN how to do pocket holes.


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## hotbyte (Apr 3, 2010)

A 2×4 is actually 1-1/2…at least a new one is. Use chart I linked above which shows 2-1/2 screws. The Side of K4 shows depth to set drill bit. Use the 1-1/2 marked setting. Same goes for the height of jig block or whatever it is called.

You might practice a few joints on non mitered, butt joints.


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## bbasiaga (Dec 8, 2012)

Hotbyte has it.

Set the jig depth for 1.5" (the thickness of the 2×4). Set the drill stop collar for the length of screw, 2.5". It should be fairly close to, or even on the flutes of the drill (meaning you should be drilling a shallow hole).

The jig will then be set back from the edge of the board far enough that the angle will bisect close to the middle of the board. The drill will go in at an angle, and not too deep. Then, when you drive the screw the shoulder of the hole will be just deep enough that the threads of the screw are in the second board, and the unthreaded shank is in the board with the pocket holes drilled in it.

I have a flip top planer cart in my projects area that is made of 2x lumber and held together with 2.5" pocket screws, so I know this can work.

I think the mistake some people have made is assuming that a longer screw means the stop collar on the drill bit needs to be farther up the shaft, but it doesn't work that way. The longer the screw, the less you have to drill. The drill only opens the pocket and sets the shoulder to the right depth. So a longer screw needs a taller shoulder, if you follow me. That means you need to use less of the drill bit.

-Brian


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## wmgworks (Sep 14, 2015)

> A 2×4 is actually 1-1/2…at least a new one is. Use chart I linked above which shows 2-1/2 screws. The Side of K4 shows depth to set drill bit. Use the 1-1/2 marked setting. Same goes for the height of jig block or whatever it is called.
> 
> You might practice a few joints on non mitered, butt joints.
> 
> - hotbyte


That is the exact setup I used. So my guess is that I pushed them too deep and didn't have them clamps correctly and that's why I got the separation.


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## wmgworks (Sep 14, 2015)

I finally made it back into the shop last weekend to give this another try. And…. success! I think the key was making sure I had enough downward pressure keeping the pieces together as I drove the screws. And not driving the screws too far. The legs are now securely fastened with no gaps.

Thanks everyone!


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## hotbyte (Apr 3, 2010)

Nice! Thanks for follow-up


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## Number19 (Dec 28, 2015)

> I am not a fan of using the impact driver for pocket hole screws. I am better with a drill driver as I can better feel how far they are going in. I tend to over drive them with an impact driver.
> 
> - Redoak49


I had a hard time with the drill. I just got to where I drill it so deep, then finish it off with a screw driver and hand. I'm a rookie though.


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## HornedWoodwork (Jan 28, 2015)

Pocket hole screws are a strong joint, don't let anyone tell you otherwise, they'll hold tremendous weight with high shear strength, and decent resistance to racking pressure. I use them on things I want to make quickly or parts you'll never see, they work.

I can;t say with 100% what the issue you are having is, but I do know that PH joints want to be glued, clamped, and then driven. I do this with all the joints I need to make and that seems to work well for me with only a few fussy issues here and there.

As to over driving them, that's a real problem and will impact their strength. To prevent it I drive them with a screwgun that has a clutch which allows you to dial in the pressure. I like to set the clutch to what is the lightest setting to get the job done, (i.e. close the joint produce a glue line at the seam) then I bump up the clutch by one or two steps. The joints just suck together beautifully then.


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## wmgworks (Sep 14, 2015)

> I can;t say with 100% what the issue you are having is, but I do know that PH joints want to be glued, clamped, and then driven. I do this with all the joints I need to make and that seems to work well for me with only a few fussy issues here and there.
> 
> - HornedWoodwork


My biggest issue was that I assumed as soon as the threads came out of he leg and into the stretcher they would grab and pull the joint together. So initially I just had the leg propped on my shoulder (to accommodate the angle) and wasn't applying any downward pressure except through the impact driver into the screw. This made the boards separate actually. Which made me assume I wasn't getting enough of the screw into the wood. Which made me overdrive them. I took the legs apart, flipped them around to drill new pockets in the opposite ends and tried again. This time, I applied as much downward force as I could with my free hand and this worked great. The pieces stayed together and I also didn't push the screws as deep.

Lots of lessons learned here. And that's what this is all about for me. I have one more to make so I will have a pair and I'm confident it will be much, much better.


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